# Opinions on Breeder Site?



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't get a puppy from this breeder at all..

They've got 'moyens' listed as standards, and breeding that size to minis, they price by color, the sire of the current litter on the ground has a horrible coat that almost looks like a doodle coat, at the top of the page they have the 'non-shed' sales pitch. Everyone knows poodles are nonshed, if you really need to flash that to get buyers then what sort of quality are you selling?

You can find a much better breeder than this one.


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

I'd have to second that opinion. I live in Vancouver and have never heard of these guys, but it looks suspect.


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## minime (Apr 17, 2011)

I guess we'll cross this one out of the list... 
Anyone tried getting a poodle shipped? I found some good Ontario breeders but just afraid I won't be able to visit the actual home/kennel itself...


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am not as against this breeder as others are. 1. they do health testing which is more than I can say for many that "breed". If true then that is good news. 2. The use small Standard & Moyen terms together so it is not like they are decieving anyone. 3. I like the Spoo male coat. It looks nice & tight & full. The Apricots & Reds I don't like as much for coat BUT they are also longer so they don't look nice & tight curls.

The pricing by Color vs. quality of dog does bother me. But then again I come from Chinese Crested breed & many of the breeders "show" as well sell their dogs like this- Hairless Female- $$$$, Hairless Male- $$$, Powder Puff Female $$, Powder Puff male $ & if the PP's are Cream then they are worth less since Cream is a common color. From show lines the cheapest or even give away dog are the Cream Powder Puff Male's. So, other breeds do sell based on color & coat as well & this coming from "show" breeders.

I personally would keep them on your list of potential Poodle breeder.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Have I seen worse? Absolutely! That being said, I personally wouldn't purchase from this breeder as I know there are breeders who meet more of my expectations.

Things I don't like: 
It appears as though they have reds and creams with liver pigment. Additionally, the white on their homepage may have incorrect pigment as well (or it could just be snow nose.) They call Lenny a cafe au lait, but to me he just looks like a silvered out brown. Not a huge deal, but more experienced/well known breeders will differentiate between a silvered out brown and a cafe au lait, as they are different colors. They are breeding moyens in a country where this is not an accepted size. I do not see anything that suggests that they prove their poodles through showing or any performance events. They do early spay/neuter on all puppies. While I respect their decision to prevent puppy mills from using their dogs, I would not purchase from a breeder who did this because I do not 

Things I do like:
They health test, they feed their dogs raw and their dogs appear well groomed. They don't seem to necessarily be high volume. Their website has lots of helpful information to puppy buyers and their guarantee says that they will take a puppy back at any time if they don't work out in your home. This is very important.


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## Mini-Mum (Oct 14, 2010)

FYI: I don't think this breeder mentions on their poodle site that they also breed labradoodles - nor do they mention on their labradoodle site that they also breed poodles! 

Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale | Vancouver BC Breeder 

Just a reminder to all, that "looks can be deceiving"...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Mini-Mum said:


> FYI: I don't think this breeder mentions on their poodle site that they also breed labradoodles - nor do they mention on their labradoodle site that they also breed poodles!
> 
> Australian Labradoodle Puppies for Sale | Vancouver BC Breeder
> 
> Just a reminder to all, that "looks can be deceiving"...


at least they keep the businesses separate v.v;


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## northerndancer (Jan 27, 2011)

There are many breeders who fall somewhere between "Best in Breeders" and Puppy Mills. There have been many threads about this. As others have mentioned, this breeder is better than a Puppy Mill. Because they are close by, I would visit them, ask questions, look at the dogs, find out about their breeding stock, see how the puppies are socialized. There is no harm in checking it out. The more people you talk to, the better informed you will be when making your final decision.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Omg they are producing sooooooo many litters on their doodle page! I wouldn't even talk to this 'breeder.' So what if they health test, anyone that quotes this is an idiot _"Missy is a sweet natured and playful girl, one of the *few purebred poodles* in our breeding program."_


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

minime said:


> I guess we'll cross this one out of the list...
> Anyone tried getting a poodle shipped? I found some good Ontario breeders but just afraid I won't be able to visit the actual home/kennel itself...


I had my puppy shipped from Toronto to Vancouver in mid January. He was 8 weeks old. The breeder picked him out for me based on the qualities I was looking for, I saw videos and dozens of pics, as well as checked out siblings from previous litters. If I could have found a breeder closer to home, I may have went that route ... but I am very happy with my pup as well as the whole adoption! I recommend that you do your research. And remember, there are pet owners, breeders and show people here that have lots of advise to give :act-up: You have to be comfortable and happy with YOUR decision! And it looks like you're not rushing in and grabbing the first pup you see! Good luck


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If the Doodle and Poodle operations are indeed the same people, I would not want to get involved with this breeder. The sheer number of litters of Doodles is terrifying! This, in my mind, is a commercial operation and pretty scary.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Mine is a mini too. He was shipped to me from 2000 miles away on a 1-stop flight (almost a 6-hour trip). He was 9 weeks old and it worked out fine. He did poop in the crate on his way here. He rested for a day or two and he's up to explore the new home.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If this is true, I wouldn't want to deal with this breeder because they are being dishonest and are operating a questionable breeding program.


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## caboodles (Jan 7, 2011)

Copper Canyon Labradoodles | Rip-off Report: 633932

Not much more to say after reading this...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yikes. The puppy millers are getting smarter at disguising their disgusting practices.


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## minime (Apr 17, 2011)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all your opinions and insights.. I had no idea she bred the -doodles too.. 

We decided that getting a puppy shipped was fine with us but the prices get a bit too high for us that way... The max we were able to spend was about $1200.. but with shipping that would be another $300.. I keep telling the rest of my family another $300 is a good investment for a trustworthy and reliable breeder & our puppy but they're convinced otherwise.. they keep finding less expensive puppies from what looks like puppy mill-ish places. I'm trying to explain the full picture to them though haha

Places I'm attracted to at the moment.. :
-Bonvivant Bonvivant Home - Miniature and Toy Poodles for Sale
-Duenna Duenna Poodles
-Denali index

It'd be great if I could find minis around town.. but unfortunately, seems extremely difficult as of now.. Thanks for all your help!

Rachel


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

WOW ... who would pay $1300 for a Labradoodle???? Some people amaze me!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> WOW ... who would pay $1300 for a Labradoodle???? Some people amaze me!


I know of some Doodle breeders who get $2,000 to $2,500 for their pups. Boggles my mind!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

If the new info is true that they are breeding lots of Doodles then run, run away. I find it very important to visit a place. These PM & volume BYB are getting cleaver with their webpages. I will go visit the Doodle page as well as the other pages posted. It is always nice to find out new information.

Has your family considered a "Rescue" if there are any good quality "Rescue" in the area you might want to check them out. We got a GREAT small Standard from CPR & are so totally in love with this dog. I don't know where he came from, what idiot had him but he was picked up as a matted stray on the streets. He is fantastic & CPR was great in matching us with their potential dogs. He was the 2nd dog I looked at & wasn't going to look at the St. due to their size BUT when I opened my mind & said I will look at a Small one they brought Leif on out & I knew then & there that was the dog for us. 

Thank you for all those that posted the other links I can't wait to see what they are pulling.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

doodle breeding aside- I hate the fact that they do pediatric spays and neuters


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Controversial topic but Shelter Medicine : Pediatric Spay/Neuter : ASPCA Professional 
I personally would not condemn it, too many unscrupulous owners out there that know nothing about breeding, barely have the money to FEED their pets, but figure it would be fun to have a litter of puppies. And scientifically it hasn't been proven to harm a dog


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Controversial topic but Shelter Medicine : Pediatric Spay/Neuter : ASPCA Professional
> I personally would not condemn it, too many unscrupulous owners out there that know nothing about breeding, barely have the money to FEED their pets, but figure it would be fun to have a litter of puppies. And scientifically it hasn't been proven to harm a dog


I'll tell ya this much - there's no way I'd purchase a puppy who had had a pediatric spay or neuter. Sure, it may not "harm" the dog in the strictest sense of the term. But it does affect the growth and development of the dog. In my opinion, that is actually _harmful_. The only context in which pediatric spay/neuter makes sense, IMO, is shelters who don't know much about the people who will be adopting the pets. I believe that a reputable breeder will screen their prospective pet buyers well enough that pediatric spay/neuter is not necessary. Sure, it is the only sure way to ensure the puppies will not end up in a puppy mill, but doesn't this raise a red flag that this kennel has already had a problem selling puppies without thoroughly screening? Again, most reputable breeders that I have found do not do this procedure because they have spay/neuter contracts and they stay in contact with the families to ensure their dogs are still in good hands. This really is a drastic and unnecessary measure to be taken.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree entirely. I think this is a disgusting practice! Have you ever seen the difference in the builds of two year old dogs who were part of a breeder's early spay/neuter program beside two year olds who were spayed at eight months and neutered at a year? There is no comparison. The ones who were spayed/neutered at six or seven weeks are generally ultra lanky and lean and the males look just like the females. The ones whose breeders allowed their owners to wait look like a male or a female. The girls are more refined and feminine and the males are sturdier and more muscular. In my opinion the early spay/neuter is done because a breeder is too lazy to keep track of their puppies, and terrified of competition. They do not do it because it is good for their puppies. They do it because it is good for them.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Good points about the pediatric altering. This is an issue I'm already considering when it comes to my next dog.

From the get-go I'm very, very clear that I do NOT want to breed, or even show in conformation. My dog will be altered.

But, I show in Agility, and with the prevailing data about sex hormones and growth, I plan to wait and have the operation done when the dog is full grown. I hope that's okay with the breeder. 

And...it's minor, but I'm not wild about the orange-bordered "limited registration" papers. I can live with 'em if the breeder insists, but I like my purple papers! The limited registration feels like another, "I don't trust you," thing. Or am I just being too sensitive about it? 

--Q


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## Fiveoclockdog (Sep 16, 2010)

There are several wonderful, reputable breeders of Standards, and Minis in BC... I just got my guy from a breeder in Quesnel and couldn't be happier with health or temperament. He's headed for the show ring in September.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

I neutered my pet parti at 4 months. Possibly he is larger, as he is a huge boy, but he was also from a large parti line.

ESN, done at 8 to 9 weeks old - is IMO - going too far (outside of a shelter situation). ESN, at 4+ months I have done and would consider doing again prior to placement - depending on the individual puppy and its developement.

As for screening - I've spent the week at PCA - and what I've been told over and over again is that (as a breeder) you will get burned. Despite all the screening, sooner or later - if you have a line that is desired by others - most everyone has been burned.

I'm going to do everything I can to prevent it...screen thoroughly, have a contract drawn by an attorney practicing in Louisiana, hope, pray and spay/neuter pups with me (if any) beyond 4 months...

It's not an "I don't trust you issue". If I didn't trust you, my pups wouldn't be placed with you. However, it is an "until you invest, in time, sweat, tears and $ what I have invested, you will not have my line to use as you wish".

I'm in no way an exception to the rule. Not with any breeder who has produced real quality. They all protect protect protect. Annie is the first red bitch who has been offered/allowed to breed to top studs. Many of these breeders have worked and invested and struggled for YEARS to have the line they have, and they do not share it haphazardly - and they shouldn't.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Annie is the first red bitch who has been offered/allowed to breed to top studs.


recently should be added to that, Terrys bitch Chelsea (the first Red standard bitch) wasn't looked down on

I think alot of breeders are trying to protect their lines...which is what I would do if I were in their position, I personally hate the idea of early spay and neutering...

How does a top breeder distinguish between a person lying to them and someone who genuinely just does not agree with early spay/neuter?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Terry will correct me if I'm wrong... Chelsea died 2 years ago, at 12 I believe, so we are now talking 14 years.

Susie has used Tequila (the dog! ha!) for Chili - though I would imagine that Susie's requests would, as would Terry's, be well received.

Still - that makes only 2 and the years are quite far between...

And there's no real way to tell/distinguish. If there were, breeders wouldn't get burned. Many of the requests I've received have been pretty up front, and I've tried to offer education and kindness with my refusals. The oodle breeder wanna be's are the ones who get huffy - offering that I keep the papers (duh! but how many puppy buyers know CKC - Continental Kennel Club not Canadian Kennel Club is a BS registry?! used by people who were not allowed breeding rights!) but backing away from the contract - which isn't focused so much on damages but on repo and costs associated with - of the puppy if breed for any reason - even accidental - and not spayed/neutered by 9 months with proof provided to match their permanent id.


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

Fiveoclockdog said:


> There are several wonderful, reputable breeders of Standards, and Minis in BC... I just got my guy from a breeder in Quesnel and couldn't be happier with health or temperament. He's headed for the show ring in September.


What's the name of the kennel? We love our breeder (who is in Kamloops) but are always interested in others. Do they breed mainly black spoos?


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks for your perspective on the issue, Tabatha. Definitely can see where the high-quality breeders like you are coming from, especially with so many "doodlers" running around out there!

All three of my present small dogs were altered before the age of a year, and the most recent came to us spayed. For my "someday" spoo, though...well, I do find Chris Zink's article compelling, and it's been discussed a lot on various agility forums. I want my next Agility dog to have every advantage. On the other hand, I don't want the timing of the altering operation (which WILL take place--I have no interest in producing puppies, cute as they are!) to stand between me and a dog of superior quality. 

Ah, well, considerations for the future! [wishful thinking]_Someday, my fine future spoo...someday!_[/wishful thinking]

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I just remembered another reason I don't agree with pediatric spay/neuter *for my own dogs*. First, I would like the option of prophylactic gastropexy to be done during spay/neuter. This cannot be done in a pediatric spay/neuter. Additionally, I would like the option for a partial spay, which I am strongly considering should I get a bitch in the future.


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## Fiveoclockdog (Sep 16, 2010)

jasperspoo said:


> What's the name of the kennel? We love our breeder (who is in Kamloops) but are always interested in others. Do they breed mainly black spoos?


He came from Kim Savor at Kimelle. He's out of a litter of blk/choc/cream.

Kimelle Standard Poodles


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Terry will correct me if I'm wrong... Chelsea died 2 years ago, at 12 I believe, so we are now talking 14 years.
> 
> Susie has used Tequila (the dog! ha!) for Chili - though I would imagine that Susie's requests would, as would Terry's, be well received.
> 
> Still - that makes only 2 and the years are quite far between...


I think you may be right about her passing away, she was a glorious looking bitch!
but what I was trying to say is that you said Annie is the first red to be offered all these opportunities and unless someone was familiar with red breeders they wouldn't know thats not true...as you said yourself there may be years separating them but they were still bred to nice top dogs 

I think reputation means everything, people are going to be vying for one of your dogs if you're producing amazing puppies or if you're producing a different colour...but with the right kind of screening I'm sure the chances of a mishap would be reduced significantly


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> I neutered my pet parti at 4 months. Possibly he is larger, as he is a huge boy, but he was also from a large parti line.
> 
> ESN, done at 8 to 9 weeks old - is IMO - going too far (outside of a shelter situation). ESN, at 4+ months I have done and would consider doing again prior to placement - depending on the individual puppy and its developement.
> 
> ...


Regarding your last paragraph, I find this incredibly offensive. I have been approached by a very well know Canadian breeder, and plan to use one of her males, a champion black who carries cream and apricot and is producing outstanding cream pups who are burning up the show ring. Just because some breeders hold their cards close to their chest does not mean they are not being approached with offers. I will not divulge who this boy is until we use him lest anyone attempt to sabbotage our plans, which happens a lot to a lot of breeders.


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