# Free Feeding & Bloat in Standards



## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

I don't know how risky it is for bloat, but I started feeding Loki with a treat Kong because he seemed to be eating his food too fast and throwing up or he would ignore it and the older dog would eat it. The other dog is either too small to play with the Kong or just hates it. Getting to knock the Kong all around makes Loki very happy.


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## PoodleSeekin (May 8, 2021)

Echo doesn't much care for the Kong unless it has something AMAZING in it. I assume it's cuz he's so picky. If it has his kibble in it, he just knocks it around a bit then leaves the kibbles on the floor ha ha.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

I've been free feeding Basil (spoo) since I got her at 8 weeks and she's still alive (_shrug_). She's 1-1/2 years old. Free feeding is sure convenient.


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## PoodleSeekin (May 8, 2021)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> I've been free feeding Basil (spoo) since I got her at 8 weeks and she's still alive (_shrug_). She's 1-1/2 years old. Free feeding is sure convenient.


Do you let her run around after eating? I assume with free-feeding she probably eats slower anyway and smaller thru out the day? Thanks for the response !


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

PoodleSeekin said:


> Do you let her run around after eating? I assume with free-feeding she probably eats slower anyway and smaller thru out the day? Thanks for the response !


Generally no hard playing or any running after eating. Just like for swimming, _don't go swimming 30 minutes after you eat_.


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

My guy’s been free fed since birth, about 1.75 years. I’ve noticed he has a natural feeding pattern. He barely eats in the morning and throughout the day, maybe just a half cup or so. He eats the majority of his meals at night (think 7 or 8 pm). I don’t restrict his activity but admittedly maybe I should. I’ve been really happy free-feeding because it allows him to eat when he’s hungry, not on my schedule. It is tough at the boarding kennel.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I semi-free fed my previous pair. By that I mean I gave them a set amount each day divided into two or three meals, and I left the food down for them to pick at throughout the day. Usually they would wander over at some point (not always immediately after I set the bowls down,) eat half their bowl, and then come back to finish the rest of the bowl sometime later. I didn't try to stop them from roughhousing after supper, but I didn't encourage them to run hard either. They died at age 10 of causes unrelated to bloat (one had cancer, and the other had a seizure most likely triggered by a blood clot from his heart murmur.)


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PoodleSeekin said:


> I assume with free-feeding she probably eats slower anyway and smaller thru out the day?


Exactly. This is one of the reasons I really like free feeding. It’s very rare that Peggy (a standard poodle) eats more than a quarter cup of kibble at a time. More commonly she just takes a mouthful here and there.

She doesn’t need to gorge herself because she knows she can come back for more.


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## PoodleSeekin (May 8, 2021)

Thank you for all the replies so far,I really apprecaite hearing about your experiences! What generally causes bloat, then, really?? Because I've heard horror stories about 'my poodle had a sip of water and then ran, then got bloat', so it has us fairly nervous.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Have you looked into gastropexy (i.e. stomach tacking)? Might be something to speak with your vet about. Some poodle owners opt to have this procedure done at the same time as spay or neuter.









Gastropexy | VCA Animal Hospital


A gastropexy is a surgical procedure that is sometimes performed in large breed dogs to prevent gastric dilatation and volvulus (GDV), also known as bloat. A gastropexy may be performed prophylactically or may be done as part of the surgical management of GDV.




vcahospitals.com


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## PoodleSeekin (May 8, 2021)

Oh yes we are likely getting it done when we get him neutered at a year, thank you very much !


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Desexing at a year is a bit young for a still growing standard poodle. If you use the Search for threads on this, you'll find more than a few. There's several health reasons to hold off. 

_Neutering may be associated with increased risks of debilitating joint disorders and some cancers, complicating pet owners' decisions on neutering. The joint disorders include hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear or rupture, and elbow dysplasia. The cancers include lymphoma, mast cell tumor, hemangiosarcoma, and osteosarcoma.

The primary purpose was to offer readers some evidence-based information on breed-specific differences with vulnerability to neutering, including suggested guidelines for neutering ages to avoid increasing long-term health risks of neutering, if any. A secondary, unforeseen, purpose was to document breed-specific differences in the increases in some cancers associated with removal of gonadal hormones, as an area for possible research on genetic aspects of cancer occurrence.









_


I remain in the camp of holding off til fully physically mature so all the hormones can do their jobs in developing the mature body and time enough for the growth plates to close.

Since pediatric/juvenile desexing isn't done for the individual dog's health but to keep unwanted dogs out of the population, I'll err on the side of my own pups health. Although there may be no ill effects from desexing early, there's also nothing to show that it's any benefit to them.


There's ongoing research on bloat but no smoking gun yet for the identifiable, fixable cause. These two links have fairly current information. A gastropexy can't prevent bloat of course, but can buy enough time to get medical help.

Bloat: Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital (vcahospitals.com) 

Dog Bloat: Causes, Signs, and Symptoms - Whole Dog Journal (whole-dog-journal.com)


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Desexing at a year is a bit young for a still growing standard poodle. If you use the Search for threads on this, you'll find more than a few. There's several health reasons to hold off.


Unfortunately, every Standard Poodle breeder that I looked at required desexing between 8 and 12 months. It is written into the contract and you don't get the AKC registration papers until you provide proof. They are paranoid about their dogs begin used for breeding doodles.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

What causes bloat:
The bowel is all wound up in the belly, looping back on itself many times. Sometimes dropping low in the belly, sometimes rising up high before it dives back down. There is nothing holding the high points up, and occasionally they will flop over from weight. That leads to a twist in the bowel and a blockage at that point. That's bloat. 
A gastropexy (tack) is a stitch put in between the high point of the bowel and the stomach lining. Temporarily holding that upper point in place so it doesn't 'flop'. 
A stitch??? No big deal... and seemingly, not very effective. but flesh will build up around that stitch... cementing the bowel to the stomach lining... for good!
Tell your breeder that the plan is to wait 'til the dog has reached physical maturity before neutering, and alter the contract to note that fact. They may understand....


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

For what it's worth... If you decide to wait. Give your breeder a heads up like what countryboy mentioned.

Our contract said that Basil needed to be neutered by 1 year - for obvious reasons - not starting my own breeding program (which wasn't even a thought). I ended up adopting a popular mindset here that rubbed off from @PeggyTheParti, and am waiting until after Basil's 3rd heat. My breeder was totally cool with it. So, whew.

However much blind faith you choose to let into your life from strangers on the internet is up to you, lol. Obviously the input here has a high value to me. Just something to think about.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For much of their lives our dogs were allowed to free feed (a GSD along with standard poodles). Thankfully none of them have been gluttonous eaters but really truly grazers. Thus they really never had bellies so full of food that we felt the need to make them rest after eating and before playing routinely in the yard. None of them was or will be gastropexied either. All that it will prevent is torsion, not bloat and since they never eat huge meals I have not worried about bloat.


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## codys_mom (Jul 22, 2020)

We don't intentionally free feed, but in a sense we do. I put out Cody's kibble in the morning, but he generally doesn't eat it until lunchtime. If he eats it on the early side and looks hungry again in the early afternoon, I give him a second serving. Then he eats his dinner as soon as it lands on his bowl at 6. He's a trim guy who isn't terribly food motivated. My mom (owner on many other large, non-poodle dogs) was astounded that he didn't gobble up all his kibble as soon as I poured it in his bowl.

Anyhow, all of this to say that I don't really worry about bloat wrt feeding bc he gets his main walk/fetch time in the morning, and generally doesn't eat until noon, despite food being available. His evening walk is short and slow. And, we had him pexied with the neuter so that also eases my mind a bit.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

Thought I might pop in to clarify some things about bloat and risk factors!

To start with, like RnP said, we don't get know the true "cause" of bloat, but there are a lot of predisposing factors. Poodles fit the mark because of their keel-shapes chests (large difference in the diameter of their chest versus their abdomen) and, for standards, being a large breed dog. Other factors are single large meals, raised feeding, and exercise before *and* after eating. The single best predictive value is genetics. If a relative has bloated, your poodle has approximately a 50% chance of bloating too. 

There are a lot of things you can do management-wise to mitigate these risks, and the best preventative measures for serious illness/death is a gastropexy. This can be done laparoscopically or with a traditional incision. Lap surgeries generally have an easier recovery, but are much more expensive because of the equipment required. The thing about gastropexy is that it doesn't prevent bloat, but it does prevent GDV.

Gastric dilatation and volvulus is the fatal consequence of bloat. Bloat just means the stomach has filled with something, in most cases air, but sometimes dogs get "food bloat" as well. If the stomach becomes significantly enlarged, it can twist on its axis, preventing contents from moving either into the intestines or being vomited up. This can become deadly because the blood vessels leading to the stomach are compromised, leading to shock and rapid death. A dog whose stomach has twisted has a 50/50 chance of survival after 4 hours have passed. Surgery is the only treatment, which is always very expensive and is generally only done at emergency clinics. My GP office does not do them anymore because we do not have the tools to remove part of the stomach if necessary or the staffing for overnight monitoring. We had a beautiful apricot standard come in to my clinic that I diagnosed with GDV. I got him to an ER as soon as I could, and $5,000 later he was okay. At the time of his surgery, they also pexyed him. With that pexy, *he can still bloat*. However, with the stomach being tacked to the abdominal wall, it should not be able to twist over. Treatment for simple bloat is pharmaceutical, not surgical, so much less risky. Without the stomach twisting, you also have more time to find a vet.

If you are concerned about GDV, I definitely recommend getting the gastropexy procedure done and continuing to mitigate those risks above. By the nature of free feeding, that is preventing large meals and encouraging frequent small meals, which is ideal. I would also say you don't have to wait two hours after feeding to allow exercise. The stomach starts to empty pretty quickly, so I generally recommend around 30-60 minutes of rest.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

DogtorDoctor said:


> Thought I might pop in to clarify some things about bloat and risk factors!
> 
> To start with, like RnP said, we don't get know the true "cause" of bloat, but there are a lot of predisposing factors. Poodles fit the mark because of their keel-shapes chests (large difference in the diameter of their chest versus their abdomen) and, for standards, being a large breed dog. Other factors are single large meals, raised feeding, and exercise before *and* after eating. The single best predictive value is genetics. If a relative has bloated, your poodle has approximately a 50% chance of bloating too.
> 
> ...


Can you explain what the treatment for bloat would be on a dog that's been pexied?


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## PoodleSeekin (May 8, 2021)

Gosh, thanks for all the replies! Very informative-- I didn't realize waiting beyond a year is actually potentially better! Just knew that 6 mo is too early. We'll definitely be getting the plexy done, as well, I think. I'm all for it. I'm going to get my Mum to read this thread and then give free-feeding a try I think. Echo did eat from a plate last night that I left out for him several times in the evening!


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Can you explain what the treatment for bloat would be on a dog that's been pexied?


Sure thing! If the bloat is severe, the pet can be put under brief anesthesia to pass an orogastric tube and reflux any food and gas through the tube and out of the stomach. Otherwise, prokinetic medications and large amounts of fluids are used to increase gastric emptying and speed transit time through the GI system. 

My doodle's littermate bloated (no torsion). He was kept overnight for one night on IV fluids, sent home on meds, and then pexyed about two weeks later.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Still sounds elaborate and scary! I plan on getting Elroy pexied when he gets neutered (or separately if recommended) when he's around 18-24 months old. I guess what I meant was IF IT'S NOT SEVERE, is using a gas reducing product like Gas-X a good idea? Now that I type this and think about it, how do you even quantify mild vs. severe? I would think IF HE'S PEXIED, something like Gas-X probably couldn't hurt, THEN get to the vets asap.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I_love_dogs said:


> Unfortunately, every Standard Poodle breeder that I looked at required desexing between 8 and 12 months. It is written into the contract and you don't get the AKC registration papers until you provide proof. They are paranoid about their dogs begin used for breeding doodles.


It's true that some breeders do make that a requirement, but not all, and of those that do, there is sometimes room for discussion and amendment of the contract as B_t_S mentioned.
I understand the POV of those breeders but it saddens me that they aren't putting the dogs health at the top.

I don't remember if you've said what part of the country you're in, or how far you'll travel to meet a breeder and your potential pup for your next pup, if/when. If you would, then members could potentially offer some more personal recommendations. Also, if you're comfortable doing this, it's well within the forum rules to ask about specific breeders by name.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

PoodleSeekin said:


> Gosh, thanks for all the replies! Very informative-- I didn't realize waiting beyond a year is actually potentially better! Just knew that 6 mo is too early. We'll definitely be getting the plexy done, as well, I think. I'm all for it. I'm going to get my Mum to read this thread and then give free-feeding a try I think. Echo did eat from a plate last night that I left out for him several times in the evening!


To hopefully bolster your confidence, my breeder has either 6 or 8 months in the contract as the neuter age. I mentioned that I'd heard about new(ish) research showing male standards should be intact until 2 years old, and she immediately told me that I could wait until he was older. I'd definitely reach back out to your breeder and see what they say!



94Magna_Tom said:


> Still sounds elaborate and scary! I plan on getting Elroy pexied when he gets neutered (or separately if recommended) when he's around 18-24 months old. I guess what I meant was IF IT'S NOT SEVERE, is using a gas reducing product like Gas-X a good idea? Now that I type this and think about it, how do you even quantify mild vs. severe? I would think IF HE'S PEXIED, something like Gas-X probably couldn't hurt, THEN get to the vets asap.


We know severity based on radiographs. Pretty much just how distended the stomach looks from its normal size. I had a mild to moderate food bloat lab come in. He was stable, just mildly uncomfortable and having some absolutely gnarly diarrhea. I personally wouldn't anesthetize a dog for symptoms like that. It's very case dependent, so I would try not to worry about it too much. 

Making a plan is a very good idea, though! While OTC products don't normally hurt, I would err on the side of just getting Elroy to the vet at a quick pace, should something happen (knock on wood). We have some pretty nice (injectable!) medications to use if needed.


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## Hevendehl052 (12 mo ago)

PoodleSeekin said:


> Oh yes we are likely getting it done when we get him neutered at a year, thank you very much !


I also plan on getting my young guy’s stomach tacked when he is neutered. I plan to have him neutered at 16 to 18 months.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I attended a veterinary webinar on GDV a year or two ago. According to the presenting vet, some of the things that are correlated with GDV are genetics, a nervous temperament, and being put in a stressful situation, such as boarding. Exercise after eating had no correlation, nor did raising food bowls. Prophylactic gastropexy was recommended for all breeds at high risk. Very glad I had mine pexied. Frosty's was lap and he recovered SO fast.


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## 3ps (Jul 11, 2021)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Exercise after eating had no correlation,


I tend to agree with this. I trialed retrievers for many years and feeding prior to exercise had no bearing on the cases of bloat I witnessed.[ all were non exercise related] The love of my life was a working flat coated retriever {Laska] I watched this beautiful 4 yr old dog calmly walk outside stretch out on the grass and roll over. She got up and came in the house and I knew in a second what happened. I called my vet, it was after hours and they agreed to meet me. I got her in the car drove like a maniac and was there in 20 minutes. It was too late. They were able to ease her pain and reduce the bloat but the damage was not recoverable even with surgery so I kissed her and cried as she got the shot and drifted away.

My little Kallik is so much like her and I must say it is a huge concern to me. It was the first question I asked the breeder. He is a moyen but his chest shape is still that of a spoo. I will be considering this surgery as well. I can't go through seeing that again with him.


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## Wooster Tim (Nov 11, 2021)

We have always let our dogs Graze, none have had weight or aggressive food issues. None have had the issue described. I can say, the one large breed labradoodle we dog sit once in a while and the toy poodle we took in years ago both would occasionally overeat and regurgitate once in a while, more than you would anticipate. I would think the intestinal problem requiring intervention is pretty rare. Grazing will take some time for the dog to get comfortable with the fact that food is always available. I personally think they overeat and like a child get excited to do something and the digestion process gets upset with activity and the air consumed from eating too fast. Thats just my personal experience.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

3ps said:


> I tend to agree with this. I trialed retrievers for many years and feeding prior to exercise had no bearing on the cases of bloat I witnessed.[ all were non exercise related] The love of my life was a working flat coated retriever {Laska] I watched this beautiful 4 yr old dog calmly walk outside stretch out on the grass and roll over. She got up and came in the house and I knew in a second what happened. I called my vet, it was after hours and they agreed to meet me. I got her in the car drove like a maniac and was there in 20 minutes. It was too late. They were able to ease her pain and reduce the bloat but the damage was not recoverable even with surgery so I kissed her and cried as she got the shot and drifted away.
> 
> My little Kallik is so much like her and I must say it is a huge concern to me. It was the first question I asked the breeder. He is a moyen but his chest shape is still that of a spoo. I will be considering this surgery as well. I can't go through seeing that again with him.


I am so sorry for the tragic and untimely loss of your sweet Laska. ((((Hugs))))


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