# Trouble with barking when we eat and how to reduce it generally



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I allow no feeding from the table EVER. My dogs have always slept when we are eating because they know there is no point in begging. Is your dog hungry? That could account for frustrated barking. Any time my dog barks he does not get what he wants. If he barks when you are going to go on a walk wait till he is quiet and sitting to put the leash on. You may also consider giving your dog a time out, time away from humans even if it is only 2 or 3 minutes. This does work hang in there.

This is funny, I just read your link and they mention the time out too! I did not know I was using a method.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

I agree with CTgirl in that you should never give the dog what it wants while its barking. It's hard to do because with the neighbors and all you just want to shut them up so you just end up giving them what they wanted. 

I remember Victoria Stillwell doing this with a Pomeranian and she literally sat there for 40 minutes with the owner, not giving the dog any eye contact or attention, not doing anything until they got 3 seconds of silence which they rewarded the dog if they got it (they were trying to teach the dog "quiet"). After that one session, it became easier to do it with and they started to extend the length of time it stays quiet. I think if the dog is a barker in nature, the important thing is to teach them Quiet CONSISTENTLY (like you would teach recall, it needs to be to the point where you know the dog will do it no matter what). It's really a patience thing on OUR side because you get frustrated and annoyed with that constant barking in your ear. You could see on the episode the owner was getting frustrated but Victoria made her stay calm and ignore the dog completely. They were almost in a zen mode.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

That sounds like an overly complicated and convoluted way to do a time out. Just because you say it happily doesn't make it any less of a punishment. 

If you're going to do a punishment for barking, leave a leash on the dog and calmly and silently lead them to a room that they don't normally go into, like a laundry room or walk in closet. Anything more than 30 seconds is too long. The dog isn't going to sit there for five minutes, thinking about what they've done wrong. I would only go over 30 seconds if the dog continues to bark and you're waiting them out and freedom is the reward. 

You don't ever want to do this in the crate or bathroom you bathe them or other place they frequent because it can build negative associations. That's one of the fall-outs from punishment. A crate should never been a place of punishment. 

Time outs are also not great for dogs with separation anxiety.

Other, less harsh things you could consider with less chance of fall-out would be putting her in a crate in the kitchen with you guys with a Kong stuffed with something just delicious or a toy that distributes her kibble so she can eat the same time as you. This teaches her to both ignore you and be occupied at the same time. The reason why she may not whine is because she's with her family instead of isolated into another room. 

You could also teach her to stay on a mat while you eat or behind a line, say in eyesight but right outside the kitchen. Every time she breaks her stay, just simply bring her back and put her back into a stay. Then when everyone is done eating, release her. You can give her a chew to help keep her still and occupied. 

Or you can simply persist and ignore her when she barks. It sounds like she hasn't yet figured out the new rule that she doesn't get scraps from the table and she's doing her best to try to get something. Or maybe people are being inconsistent with ignoring her so she's getting reinforced enough to keep it up. Because if she's 100% ignored, the behavior will lead to extinction since it's not getting reinforcement. There may be an extinction burst (behavior gets worse before it gets better), but it should go extinct.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

How old was she, when you got her?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds to me as if you may actually be teaching her to bark! You say she barks until someone gives in - so she has learned that if she keeps it up long enough she gets the scrummy stuff she is used to getting... I would do as MsMinnaMouse suggests - make a really good meal for her (even including some healthy human food like unfatty meat or egg or cheese) and put it in a Kong or something similar. Then give it to her in her own place well away from the table as you sit down to eat. You taught her that she got good food when you did - she will see no reason why such a pleasant state of affairs should suddenly have ended! Make an absolute rule that no one, ever, feeds her at the table - instead, treat her for staying quietly in her place. I'd keep a small pot of suitable treats near her place, and get up regularly at first, so that she has never quite finished the Kong before you stuff something else good into it. Reckon on it taking some time to establish the new habit - think in weeks, rather than days.

With the excitement barking when going out I would start by being less predictable. Put your shoes on in a different place; get your shoes out and don't put them on; have someone else in the family take her out; take her out at different times. And meanwhile work hard at teaching her "Quiet!" - lots of good clicker methods on the internet. All of this will be helped if she is tired, so the more exercise, games and training you do with her the better.

I'd also have a word with the neighbours, and tell them you are working on her barking - people are likely to be a lot more sympathetic if they know that you are trying hard to teach a puppy not to be a yappy adult, even if it means more barking for a few weeks while she learns!


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## Lavinia (Jan 1, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I allow no feeding from the table EVER. My dogs have always slept when we are eating because they know there is no point in begging. Is your dog hungry? That could account for frustrated barking. Any time my dog barks he does not get what he wants. If he barks when you are going to go on a walk wait till he is quiet and sitting to put the leash on. You may also consider giving your dog a time out, time away from humans even if it is only 2 or 3 minutes. This does work hang in there.
> 
> This is funny, I just read your link and they mention the time out too! I did not know I was using a method.


She probably is hungry, but she only eats her kibble after we get up from the table and she realises she has to eat it or she will sleep hungry. But until that moment, she still has the hope of receiving something.
I don't know about time out, because i think we are dealing with a bit of separation anxiety and we don't have a crate either, so i guess we will have to ignore her.



pinkteaji said:


> I agree with CTgirl in that you should never give the dog what it wants while its barking. It's hard to do because with the neighbors and all you just want to shut them up so you just end up giving them what they wanted.
> 
> I remember Victoria Stillwell doing this with a Pomeranian and she literally sat there for 40 minutes with the owner, not giving the dog any eye contact or attention, not doing anything until they got 3 seconds of silence which they rewarded the dog if they got it (they were trying to teach the dog "quiet"). After that one session, it became easier to do it with and they started to extend the length of time it stays quiet. I think if the dog is a barker in nature, the important thing is to teach them Quiet CONSISTENTLY (like you would teach recall, it needs to be to the point where you know the dog will do it no matter what). It's really a patience thing on OUR side because you get frustrated and annoyed with that constant barking in your ear. You could see on the episode the owner was getting frustrated but Victoria made her stay calm and ignore the dog completely. They were almost in a zen mode.


I am trying to get everybody to ignore her and keep a postive and calm attitude.
About the Quiet command, i will search it up more online. I think my method may not be that effective. 



msminnamouse said:


> That sounds like an overly complicated and convoluted way to do a time out. Just because you say it happily doesn't make it any less of a punishment.
> 
> If you're going to do a punishment for barking, leave a leash on the dog and calmly and silently lead them to a room that they don't normally go into, like a laundry room or walk in closet. Anything more than 30 seconds is too long. The dog isn't going to sit there for five minutes, thinking about what they've done wrong. I would only go over 30 seconds if the dog continues to bark and you're waiting them out and freedom is the reward.
> 
> ...



I think she shows some signs of developing separation anxiety, so i don't know how to adapt her to time outs. And we don't have a crate either.

She does have a Kong, but when i fill it with kibble, she isn't interested in it. And we have no other treats to fill it with that are easy to get out. I put up an order online for some better treats, but it will be some time before they arrive. Peanut butter is not widely available here either, so i don't really know what to do. She also has an activity ball, she she isn't interested in it either. 

She knows the command stay, but when we are eating, she seems to forget everything! She is usually calm during our training sessions, but at that time she is floating with energy.

I am thinking about the ignoring action, we never tried it, but usually, in other situations in works. For instance, after playing or coming home from a walk, she is really tired, but before falling asleep she barks. And barks, usually wanting to play some more, even if i know she has had enough. So i just ignore her, and in a few minutes the barking ceases. Maybe it will happen during eating times, too, who knows? I'm hoping for the best.



Lene said:


> How old was she, when you got her?


She was 2 months old and now she is 7 months old. My family has had some problems and for medical reasons, my dad needed some quiet time, so we gave in to her demands so she would stop barking in order not to disturb him. I am conscious this has been a huge mistake, but we couldn't have avoided it. This happened at exactly 3 months and it lasted for 1 month. Before that, she wasn't barking that much.




fjm said:


> Sounds to me as if you may actually be teaching her to bark! You say she barks until someone gives in - so she has learned that if she keeps it up long enough she gets the scrummy stuff she is used to getting... I would do as MsMinnaMouse suggests - make a really good meal for her (even including some healthy human food like unfatty meat or egg or cheese) and put it in a Kong or something similar. Then give it to her in her own place well away from the table as you sit down to eat. You taught her that she got good food when you did - she will see no reason why such a pleasant state of affairs should suddenly have ended! Make an absolute rule that no one, ever, feeds her at the table - instead, treat her for staying quietly in her place. I'd keep a small pot of suitable treats near her place, and get up regularly at first, so that she has never quite finished the Kong before you stuff something else good into it. Reckon on it taking some time to establish the new habit - think in weeks, rather than days.
> 
> With the excitement barking when going out I would start by being less predictable. Put your shoes on in a different place; get your shoes out and don't put them on; have someone else in the family take her out; take her out at different times. And meanwhile work hard at teaching her "Quiet!" - lots of good clicker methods on the internet. All of this will be helped if she is tired, so the more exercise, games and training you do with her the better.
> 
> I'd also have a word with the neighbours, and tell them you are working on her barking - people are likely to be a lot more sympathetic if they know that you are trying hard to teach a puppy not to be a yappy adult, even if it means more barking for a few weeks while she learns!


About adding healthy human food, i can't really do that, because Sophie picks it and leaves the kibble untached. And will keep begging for more of that food. So i have to stick to the kibble and some treats. As far as the treats are concerned, i have some tiny biscuits and some meaty sticks that she absolutely adores, but which are too little, so she eats those in about 30 seconds.

I will try alternating some things with the walking. It's only me that walks her, so i will try the "shoes in a different place" method, thanks!

I will try to let the neighbors know, i mean most of them like her when they see her (they go all "Look at that fluffy thing!" state of mind) but i can't tell for all of them.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Many people suggest teaching bark on command as a an avenue to then teach quiet. I can't say I've tried it, but I do know many people advocate it.

Can you try giving her kibble before you sit down to eat, perhaps away from where you will be eating? If she is barking because she is hungry, then eating in front of her may be more than she can bear. I would also get your parents on board about the total ban on food from the table.

If you are tight on space or really just don't want a crate teaching go to place (a bed or mat) is really helpful when you need a moment of peace to do something without the dogs underfoot. We also use "on your bed" as a time out for when Lily barks to demand play time with toys when we are trying to get to sleep or having quiet coffee time in the bedroom at the start of the day. She has it now so deeply patterned that we don't even need to say the on your bed part. Lily barks when not wanted, we look at her bed and she goes there to put herself on the time out. If she is quiet (which she always is) while there I release her pretty quickly.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

For a time out I never use a crate. I have a mud room which is small. He likes the mud room as I feed him there and often give him treats there. If your dog has separation anxiety I would not put her in a separate room but teach her place as Catherine has suggested, her bed would probably work well. You could try putting chicken broth on her kibble to make it more attractive. I hope your dad is feeling better. You must make sure the whole family is on board with the program to stop her barking. If anyone slides it will get worse. Minnie makes a great point about how the behavior escalates before it stops. Perhaps an explanation coupled with baked goods would help to placate neighbors.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

A word of caution, don't teach bark on command to a happy dog! LOL. I don't see good results with it. I skip right to teaching quiet instead, with better results.

It sounds like you have a talkative dog. Some just are that way. I think allowing her a set number of barks, like three, to get it out of her system and then asking for quiet (with a hand signal) would be very helpful for the both of you.

I understand how hard it can be to ignore annoying, non-stop barking and to get others to also. But it has to be done or else you'll have to confine her away from the table so her barking can't pay off. You don't have to use a crate, you could use an exercise pen or babygate as well. Or work on getting her to stay on a mat. She'll keep popping up and you'll have to keep bringing her back, but it'll catch on eventually. I know, I had to do it with my dogs because my family wouldn't stop feeding them from the table. Ear plugs might help!

Try soaking her kibble in chicken broth until it gets nice and soft before stuffing it into a food toy. That might hold her interest.

Good luck! Remember to expect the extinction burst. Don't give up.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

By the way, I teach "Quiet" by waiting for the dog to stop barking and then I say "Quiet" and touch a finger to my lips (my hand signal) and mark and treat. Mark means you use a clicker or say "Good!" or "Yes!" or some other word to let her know that she's done the correct behavior.

If a dog barks often enough, you can just have carry treats on you or stash them around the house for easy access. This isn't forever, it's just until the dog learns the behavior. Wait for them to bark, and either wait for them to stop barking or show them you have the treat, and that will usually get them to stop barking. Don't give the treat or mark WHEN the barking is still happening or you're rewarding barking, not being quiet. 

I don't teach the action of barking to yappy dogs because they bark enough as it is, and they bark because they find the bark reinforcing in of it's self so they don't care about getting a reward from me for barking when barking supplies it's own reward. 

But more than any of this, it makes sense to figure out WHY the barking is occurring and if you can, address the reason for it instead of using a broad fix. So if a dog barks for attention, obviously you'd withhold any and all of your attention until they stop barking.


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## Lavinia (Jan 1, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Many people suggest teaching bark on command as a an avenue to then teach quiet. I can't say I've tried it, but I do know many people advocate it.
> 
> Can you try giving her kibble before you sit down to eat, perhaps away from where you will be eating? If she is barking because she is hungry, then eating in front of her may be more than she can bear. I would also get your parents on board about the total ban on food from the table.
> 
> If you are tight on space or really just don't want a crate teaching go to place (a bed or mat) is really helpful when you need a moment of peace to do something without the dogs underfoot. We also use "on your bed" as a time out for when Lily barks to demand play time with toys when we are trying to get to sleep or having quiet coffee time in the bedroom at the start of the day. She has it now so deeply patterned that we don't even need to say the on your bed part. Lily barks when not wanted, we look at her bed and she goes there to put herself on the time out. If she is quiet (which she always is) while there I release her pretty quickly.


These days i began to really understand the concept of training "go to your bed". Outside the kitchen, we have a carpet and this is where she sleeps if someone is working in the kitchen. Now, let me tell you her routine: sleeping all morning, some part of the afternoon and then happy time until about 9 pm. That's great for us because sometimes she is sleepy during lunch time that she stays on that carpet outside the kitchen, napping while we eat.
So, i am wondering, how would you suggest to start teaching her to stay there every time that we eat? Should we just have her laying there, then say the command and treat and so on?



CT Girl said:


> For a time out I never use a crate. I have a mud room which is small. He likes the mud room as I feed him there and often give him treats there. If your dog has separation anxiety I would not put her in a separate room but teach her place as Catherine has suggested, her bed would probably work well. You could try putting chicken broth on her kibble to make it more attractive. I hope your dad is feeling better. You must make sure the whole family is on board with the program to stop her barking. If anyone slides it will get worse. Minnie makes a great point about how the behavior escalates before it stops. Perhaps an explanation coupled with baked goods would help to placate neighbors.


So i guess i am sticking with the "resting place" idea, thanks!
I tried putting chicken broth on it, but she is still not happy. However, the other day, my uncle came to visit and she ate lots and lots of kibble (half of her daily meal) from his hand. And last night, after we were done with the evening session play session she went, got one of her toys that was filled with kibble (a little pocket, i don't know how to call it) and ate everything that was inside.



msminnamouse said:


> A word of caution, don't teach bark on command to a happy dog! LOL. I don't see good results with it. I skip right to teaching quiet instead, with better results.
> 
> It sounds like you have a talkative dog. Some just are that way. I think allowing her a set number of barks, like three, to get it out of her system and then asking for quiet (with a hand signal) would be very helpful for the both of you.
> 
> ...


Ok, so i am preparing for lots of putting her on the carpet these following weeks, i guess. I really have to do it because everybody wants to feed her from the dinner table! It seems the problem is much more on our side, lol.

She isn't interested in soaked kibble either, i'm really thinking what to take her that would fill a Kong nicely. We don't have lots of treat options available in our area, it seems i will have to get creative. I'm thinking of something with a strong smell so she gets interested.



msminnamouse said:


> By the way, I teach "Quiet" by waiting for the dog to stop barking and then I say "Quiet" and touch a finger to my lips (my hand signal) and mark and treat. Mark means you use a clicker or say "Good!" or "Yes!" or some other word to let her know that she's done the correct behavior.
> 
> If a dog barks often enough, you can just have carry treats on you or stash them around the house for easy access. This isn't forever, it's just until the dog learns the behavior. Wait for them to bark, and either wait for them to stop barking or show them you have the treat, and that will usually get them to stop barking. Don't give the treat or mark WHEN the barking is still happening or you're rewarding barking, not being quiet.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this training method! I've began practising it a little, i don't know if she really gets it yet, but i'm patient.
She is usually barking for attention, so i will have to adress that, too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would give the command (for Lily, on your bed) and when she lies down give treat immediately. After a couple of repeats, wait longer and longer before giving the treat. Once she is able to hold the stay (even for a few seconds) give her a release command (for lily, ok) before treating. As her hold of staying in place improves fade the rewards and increase the distance from which you send her to her place.


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## Lavinia (Jan 1, 2013)

Got it, thanks! Now it's time to put it into practice.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Let us know how it goes. I am sure you will do great.


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