# stupidest thing I've ever heard - moyen vs. medium



## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

What is the stupidest comment about dogs that you've ever heard from a supposed knowledgeable dog person? I don't mean anything said by someone who doesn't claim to know anything - e.g. I don't see a problem if a non-dog person calls a Sheltie a small Collie. 

Recently, in a Facebook group for moyen poodles, a bunch of supposed dedicated US moyen poodle breeders got very offended when I said "moyen poodles" are also known as - meaning they're exactly the same as - "medium poodles." These breeders tried to claim that moyen poodles are "moyens from true European lines," whereas "medium poodles" are knockoffs that are a mini-standard cross in the US. When I replied that "moyen" actually, literally, means "medium" in French, and even dog shows across Europe use the phrase "medium poodle" rather than "moyen poodle," these breeders got even more upset, replying: "moyen poodles are NOT the same as medium poodles, how are you not able to wrap your head around that?!" 

At this point, I decided to stop the idiotic exchange, as my next reply would've been an offensive, condescending remark along the following: Well, again, "moyen" is, literally, French for "medium," so by saying that moyen poodles aren't medium poodles, you're essentially saying that medium poodles aren't medium poodles. So, if medium poodles aren't medium poodles, what are medium poodles? Is that a riddle? 

Maybe this is why whenever someone asks here in PF where they can find a top moyen breeder in the US, others inevitably say, well, there are 1 or 2 that you can contact, but for all practical purposes, look overseas, as there really aren't that many in the US. Judging from the comical stupidity of those US "breeders" in that FB moyen group, I now understand why you all say that.

Kevin


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

kchen95 said:


> What is the stupidest comment about dogs that you've ever heard from a supposed knowledgeable dog person? I don't mean anything said by someone who doesn't claim to know anything - e.g. I don't see a problem if a non-dog person calls a Sheltie a small Collie.
> 
> Recently, in a Facebook group for moyen poodles, a bunch of supposed dedicated US moyen poodle breeders got very offended when I said "moyen poodles" are also known as - meaning they're exactly the same as - "medium poodles." These breeders tried to claim that moyen poodles are "moyens from true European lines," whereas "medium poodles" are knockoffs that are a mini-standard cross in the US. When I replied that "moyen" actually, literally, means "medium" in French, and even dog shows across Europe use the phrase "medium poodle" rather than "moyen poodle," these breeders got even more upset, replying: "moyen poodles are NOT the same as medium poodles, how are you not able to wrap your head around that?!"
> 
> ...


I’m not a moyen poodle specialist, but I definitely heard about it not merely being a cross between standard and mini, or and undersized standard or oversized mini.

Being french myself, I can definitely confirm that moyen means medium though!


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Dechi said:


> I’m not a moyen poodle specialist, but I definitely heard about it not merely being a cross between standard and mini, or and undersized standard or oversized mini.
> 
> Being french myself, I can definitely confirm that moyen means medium though!


That's right - "true" moyens/mediums are produced from two medium-size parents, not from crossing standards and minis. But, it is NOT true that "moyens" mean true moyens, and "mediums" mean standard-mini crosses. Standard-mini crosses are called inter-varieties; both moyens and mediums refer to exactly the same thing: not mini-standard crosses, but medium-size poodles bred from two medium-size parents. 

It's no different than saying that a caniche is a poodle 

Kevin


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> At this point, I decided to stop the idiotic exchange, as my next reply would've been an offensive, condescending remark along the following: Well, again, "moyen" is, literally, French for "medium," so by saying that moyen poodles aren't medium poodles, you're essentially saying that medium poodles aren't medium poodles. So, if medium poodles aren't medium poodles, what are medium poodles? Is that a riddle?




_I would just reply..."I'll just stick with my toy poodles. How's that Miss moyan medium poodle? Why don't you get a mini? They're not really mini. They're medium." :alberteinstein:_


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle is a 20 pound medium poodle. She's 17 and a half inches at the withers. I wish the AKC would recognize the 4th poodle size like they do in FCI countries. It's a lovely size.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Here's some kleinpudel's (moyen medium) poodles showing. Check out the size.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well aside from various people who tried to convince me I didn't know what size poodle I had, insisting Lily was a moyen when she is a decent sized standard at 22 3/4" there were a bunch of people who also have thought she was a PWD. I wrote that off since the Obamas had just gotten their portie.


I don't get it either! Just dopey what some people insist they know when they don't.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Noelle is a 20 pound medium poodle. She's 17 and a half inches at the withers. I wish the AKC would recognize the 4th poodle size like they do in FCI countries. It's a lovely size.


I've only met one legitimate moyen, but I have to agree, it is an excellent size! The spoos are perfect for me now, but when I'm older, I could see getting a moyen.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I've only met one legitimate moyen, but I have to agree, it is an excellent size! * The spoos are perfect for me now, but when I'm older, I could see getting a moyen*.



And when you're _really_ old, you'll realize that the toy is the perfect size. hahaha:aetsch:

Seriously, that is a really nice size if someone doesn't quite want one as big as most standards, but wants a little more than a mini...unless it's an over sized mini like...remember Chagall? He was 17" and a mini. That could work too. Those were some pretty dogs in that video. Thanks for sharing. So are there no good moyen breeders in this country to speak of?


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Here's my medium poodle, Shilo, who at 13 months is 20 lbs and a shade above 16.5 inches. You can see the size comparison in one of the photos with my mini Vontae, who's 12.5 inches/15 lbs. 

From my experience with Shilo, it seems that mediums act more like bigger dogs - you can see this especially in the video where Shilo is diving.

Kevin


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> And when you're _really_ old, you'll realize that the toy is the perfect size. hahaha:aetsch:
> 
> *Absolutely! Love the toys too  *
> 
> ...unless it's an over sized mini like...remember Chagall? He was 17" and a mini.


Aww, Chagall, one of my major inspirations for getting a silver :adore: Such a wonderful boy. Miss him and his mom. 



kchen95 said:


> Here's my medium poodle, Shilo, who at 13 months is 20 lbs and a shade above 16.5 inches. You can see the size comparison in one of the photos with my mini Vontae, who's 12.5 inches/15 lbs.
> 
> From my experience with Shilo, it seems that mediums act more like bigger dogs - you can see this especially in the video where Shilo is diving.
> 
> ...


Awesome pics and video, Kevin! My dogs love to go in water, but they won't jump in.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What a fun loving dog. I enjoyed the video. Super cute.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Well aside from various people who tried to convince me I didn't know what size poodle I had, insisting Lily was a moyen when she is a decent sized standard at 22 3/4" there were a bunch of people who also have thought she was a PWD. I wrote that off since the Obamas had just gotten their portie.
> 
> 
> I don't get it either! Just dopey what some people insist they know when they don't.


Haha 22 3/4 - that's a HUGE moyen! It's a good 4 3/4 inches above the regulation limit for moyens - you would think there should be another size after this


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) defines a medium/moyen/klein poodle as 35–45 cm (14–18 in). According to this sizing scheme, my minipoo would fit into the medium category. This is the perfect size of poodle for me too.

Their official languages are "French, English, German, Spanish" and on their official website, in the English version they called that size "medium". CANICHE You might want to provide them this link so they can read up about FCI's official nomenclature.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Skylar said:


> Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) defines a medium/moyen/klein poodle as 35–45 cm (14–18 in). According to this sizing scheme, my minipoo would fit into the medium category. This is the perfect size of poodle for me too.
> 
> Their official languages are "French, English, German, Spanish" and on their official website, in the English version they called that size "medium". CANICHE You might want to provide them this link so they can read up about FCI's official nomenclature.


I actually did provide them (people in that Facebook moyen group) with that exact link - and even referenced where the term "medium poodle" was mentioned in the FCI document - bottom of page 6. This only got them madder, as they refused to believe that a dog with such an, umm, exotic name (moyen), actually has a mundane English equivalent name (medium). They themselves were using both moyen and klein in the FB group to refer to this variety, but, they refuse to accept that "medium" also refers to the same variety. It's fascinating to me - to these people, this dog is allowed to have a German and a French name (and, I'm guessing, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Russian and Ukrainian too), BUT... just not an English name 

Kevin


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

kchen95 said:


> I actually did provide them (people in that Facebook moyen group) with that exact link - and even referenced where the term "medium poodle" was mentioned in the FCI document - bottom of page 6. This only got them madder, as they refused to believe that a dog with such an, umm, exotic name (moyen), actually has a mundane English equivalent name (medium). They themselves were using both moyen and klein in the FB group to refer to this variety, but, they refuse to accept that "medium" also refers to the same variety. It's fascinating to me - to these people, this dog is allowed to have a German and a French name (and, I'm guessing, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Russian and Ukrainian too), BUT... just not an English name
> 
> Kevin


Well I think you nailed it -they want a fancy name for their "special" dog - medium is, well, it's just too boring and therefore completely unacceptable........ except for the organization that recognizes and shows this size of poodle.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

In case you guys really wanna see how it's possible that there truly are people as dumb as this, the Facebook group's name is "Moyen Poodle of All Colors" - it's a public group, so I believe anyone can see all the discussion threads. The thread in question is titled "Good morning! I am looking at a pup that is 15 weeks old..."

Kevin


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## rp17 (Jun 6, 2018)

I wish the moyen/medium size was recognized here in the US. There's such a huge size gap being that minis are "supposed to" (by AKC standards) top out at 15 inches, and most standards are bred to be very large. Compare this to other countries where not only is the moyen size recognized and therefore bred for, but there's actually a top size limit for standards, keeping them smaller than we typically find in the US. 

From my time on this forum, I know my husband and I weren't the only ones who were looking for a moyen size, OR for a small standard. In the end we got lucky with a miniature who the breeder thought would be a "big boy" and he was right. He was only 8 weeks old so there was no way to know for sure and we knew we'd love him no matter the size, but we were really hoping he'd go oversize which he did! He just turned a year old last week and is 16.5" and 17 lbs.

I just wish the AKC would get on board with the sizes recognized elsewhere, and that way people who wanted a medium size would actually have a variety of great breeders and tested champion lines to choose from, while still being guaranteed their puppy would grow into the size range that best suits their lifestyle.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

kchen95 said:


> In case you guys really wanna see how it's possible that there truly are people as dumb as this, the Facebook group's name is "Moyen Poodle of All Colors" - it's a public group, so I believe anyone can see all the discussion threads. The thread in question is titled "Good morning! I am looking at a pup that is 15 weeks old..."
> 
> Kevin


I was curious so I looked at it. There was a comment you made towards the end that conveyed your thought really well. I don’t remember exactly but it was just perfect in explaining the way «*non-moyen or medium*» should be called versus moyen/medium. I think they wouldn’t have minded if they had seen that before.

Their fear is that people won’t distinguish between moyen/medium and standard/mini breedings.

Also the fact that the OP had the same name as you confused everyone, lol !


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

There are a couple but you do have to be very careful. I have gone round with one breeder who has both imported moyen lines AND does inter-variety crosses. She calls puppies from both type of breedings Moyens when selling them. SIGH. 
I have a pure standard that is under 21 inches and an intervariety who is 20 inches tall. My Cole dog actually is only 1/4 mini and looks and acts like a Standard. His littermate on the other hand is only 16 1/2 inches tall, looks and acts more like a Mini then a Standard.... The take away do your homework and ask a lot of questions.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Dechi said:


> I was curious so I looked at it. There was a comment you made towards the end that conveyed your thought really well. I don’t remember exactly but it was just perfect in explaining the way «*non-moyen or medium*» should be called versus moyen/medium. I think they wouldn’t have minded if they had seen that before.
> 
> Their fear is that people won’t distinguish between moyen/medium and standard/mini breedings.
> 
> Also the fact that the OP had the same name as you confused everyone, lol !


Yup I know those breeders were essentially claiming that "medium" = standard/mini breeding, while "moyen" = "true moyens" from Europe. The amusing part, to me, is WHY they would claim this, because it's simply incorrect. It's amusing that some people think anything European-sounding (moyen) must be "better" than anything mundane English-sounding (medium), that there is no way they could actually mean exactly the same thing. 

I've asked some non-American medium/moyen/klein poodle breeders who compete in shows across Europe (and Asia), and some of them don't even know what "moyen poodles" are - because in these European competitions, they use the words "medium poodles", not "moyen poodles". They have no reason to know that moyen is French for medium any more than they have reasons to know that caniche is French for poodle. 

As a case in point, see the attached photo - this is from a top European breeder who was selling one of her Crufts-winning poodles. Notice she used "medium", not "moyen", to describe her pup.

Kevin


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

rp17 said:


> I wish the moyen/medium size was recognized here in the US. There's such a huge size gap being that minis are "supposed to" (by AKC standards) top out at 15 inches, and most standards are bred to be very large. Compare this to other countries where not only is the moyen size recognized and therefore bred for, but there's actually a top size limit for standards, keeping them smaller than we typically find in the US.
> 
> From my time on this forum, I know my husband and I weren't the only ones who were looking for a moyen size, OR for a small standard. In the end we got lucky with a miniature who the breeder thought would be a "big boy" and he was right. He was only 8 weeks old so there was no way to know for sure and we knew we'd love him no matter the size, but we were really hoping he'd go oversize which he did! He just turned a year old last week and is 16.5" and 17 lbs.
> 
> I just wish the AKC would get on board with the sizes recognized elsewhere, and that way people who wanted a medium size would actually have a variety of great breeders and tested champion lines to choose from, while still being guaranteed their puppy would grow into the size range that best suits their lifestyle.


Totally agree. The fact that the size that makes for a ideal pet for many people - the medium size - isn't "recognized" by AKC, is pretty weird to me. And, since we still think of AKC as a legitimate gatekeeper for determining quality in a purebred dog, lack of recognition by AKC means there will be fewer top breeders for the medium size variety than for the other sizes.

Interestingly, even in countries that recognize the medium poodle, mediums are typically still the least popular variety, with toys and standards being much more popular. This speaks to the macro-level issue of the conformation world arbitrarily rewarding extremes of all forms. Anything "in the middle" gets overlooked, for no good reason other than "we simply like exaggerated features." In the US, toys and standards (extremely small and extremely big) are much more popular than miniatures, even though practically, I would argue that for most people, miniatures make much more sense than toys and standards as a pet.

Kevin


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