# Beware of that 'balanced' term



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

dogsavvy thank you for your thoughtful and thorough post. I think we would like to work together as trainers. I also find that words can mask many bad methods. If I consider myself a "balanced" trainer I am offering that description of myself as meaning instruction can be done with positive techniques that are able to be reinforced with mild physical hints/reminders/corrections and should not involve severe physical force, yelling or raw emotion. If a dog I am working with I check in with myself as to whether I was clear in giving my signal/order and whether I have really taught the exercise and rehearsed it sufficiently in a way that it is reasonable to expect the dog to have generalized enough to have that activity under stimulus control. If not then we refresh the teaching. If yes then a reminder that an order was given rather than a request made is in order. That reminder is a punishment but it could be as simple as stopping a game of fetch if the dog doesn't return the fetch object. I also do use pinch collars but introduce them carefully and use them properly so they can be faded. The only tool I do not use for myself or with client dogs is an unlimited slip collar because green handlers are too easily tempted to hang their dog with them. Helicoptering or hanging a dog on a slip collar happens way too often and is probably the leading cause of the horrible damage you described.

People who consider themselves R+ only often don't look art themselves in the mirror too well either. One of the folks who comes to my novice class with a young green dog uses a clicker so indiscriminately when left to their own devices. I don't think it is an effective tool for the dog. There are so many clicks that it confuses other dogs and handlers complained so much that I now do not allow this handler to use it in class. This handler shapes everything they teach. Shaping can be a great method for teaching if you are willing to be patient about it, but not if you get mad and yell at the dog when you ask for too much improvement too fast. This handler is not so patient as good shaping requires. As a result the dog is more than happy to run out of the training ring and will also leave during rally trials (they are in advanced so off leash).

Anyway my time to refine my reply is limited since I have to get ready for my evening microbiology class meeting on Zoom. I hope I made sense here and contributed in a positive way to your great post


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Lilly cd rd,

Yes, we'd likely do fine together. You did make perfect sense. It's really been eating a me. I'd heard the term, didn't pay much attention to it because I got tired of figuring out fads & hot-topics of the moment long ago but this one, this one really bugs me. My clients back home have heard me say dozens of time, don't believe what say but to believe what the dogs say. They don't know how to lie... or color the truth. They're just open


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I often find myself telling novice handlers with green dogs that you cannot lie to a dog (not just yours, but any dog). A correlate to that is dogs never lie to each other or to their people. A growl has meaning (I am nervous about this situation and I am ready to defend myself). I had a client years ago who really thought she could hang onto her dog and pet him into being happy. Disaster in the making since the dog growled frequently and this just made the person hold the dog more tightly and often closer to her face. The people decided after just a couple of sessions they could handle all the problems of which what I described was just one of many. I wonder if she ended up being bitten on her face. The dog had already broken skin on her hands. 

Dogs will also tell you when they are relaxed and happy. When Lily is relaxed she will happily turn her back on an excited or nervous (not deeply red zoned dog and i would never use her to train a really aggressive dog). She often can tell me more about a class or private client dog more easily than I might notice a subtle signal. She has done a lot to calm the bernedoodle I am working with. He started out as a really over excited reactor to the site of other dogs during walks. Lily gave him a couple of curled lips and some small low growls to warn him off and now he has turned into quite a nice gentleman. About half of each of our sessions is polite loose leash walks where we can either both walk one dog or easily trade dogs. Now if I can just get him to think recalls are important. Too much of his first year has been spent running around the client's roughly 2 acre property ignoring her pleas to come back in the house. She is elderly and has an artificial hip as a result of a fall and the dog weighs about 85 pounds. Too much freedom has made calling him pretty meaningless. I am going to play some games with him tomorrow and see if something like a flirt pole might get him moving towards me.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

I don't recommend any novice to use a choker or prong collar. I do know of trainers who don't even know how to use a choker (training collar) correctly. Anyway, your timing has to be real good and most non trainers correct too much, often too late, and use too little praise. They should stick with softer ways, such as clicker. 

One of our local trainers does a wonderful job using a choker, but it's just too easy for a novice to mess up and to make things worse. There are several tricks to get your dog trained without even using a collar. You certainly cannot offer a "correction" when your dog is on the other side of the pasture splitting up the sheep or pressing them against the fence. Correction collars are actually new, relatively speaking, on the dog training scene.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

MG,

I teach a clicker training class. And I see students who click too much, often too late, and use to much praise. It's the timing, correction or click, that has meaning for the dog. One advantage clickers have over corrections is you can't really hurt a dog with ill-timed treats and too much praise. The opposite is true for some of the yank and crank students. As a trainer, I try to explain to my students they need to take photographs of the dog doing the right thing. The clearer the photograph, the more easy it is for the dog to learn. I don't care if that's a yes, a click, or a good dog. The timing is everything.

I do look at ill-timed leash pops as a problem. Often the handler is frustrated and doesn't know what to do to fix the problem. I've seen dogs over corrected for minor things. It's scary how some people will jerk a dog off their feet by their neck and think nothing of it. Poor timing makes for poor training, regardless if it is a correction or a reinforcement.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Click-N-Treat said:


> I do look at ill-timed leash pops as a problem. Often the handler is frustrated and doesn't know what to do to fix the problem. I've seen dogs over corrected for minor things. It's scary how some people will jerk a dog off their feet by their neck and think nothing of it.


Someone should put a collar/leash around the human and jerk them around and see if they like it. Then move them around with a collar/leash on but using body language, cues, praise and luring with food. They may realize it’s a kinder more effective training for their dogs.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

In dog training, jerk is a noun, not a verb.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

MG,

Yes, I have on more than one occasion wondered about the human/dog relationship. In some ways we have gotten improvement but in other ways we've gone the wrong direction. As recent as my Grandparents' day, a collar was used to protect a dog's neck from attack which meant that dog was quite valuable to the family. A rope was used if you needed to tie the dog up for some reason but on the farm the dog was trained on the job & he had a job. This was good for the dog, good for dog breeding because the dogs. Dogs understand jobs. In today's world training is the only job so many dogs have & that's a pity. I'm always trying to find something I can teach my dogs to give them more purpose. Not that their lives depend on it but to give them a job. I have had both kinds, the dogs who had jobs but were trained using leash/collar & I've had dogs who worked the farm & rarely, if ever, wore a collar/leash & honestly I prefer the leash-less but in modern society if you take a dog into the public, others do not play by the rules of mind your own business. I love dogs, enjoy looking at & observing them but would never go up to your dog & put my face in hers. In fact, I do not touch anyone's dog without the handler/owner's permission unless the dog is climbing me. Even my Mr. Layne's sire who was in my face was polite not to touch me. He was on his hind legs & he read me like a book. When he decided about me, he pivoted on his hind legs & sat beside me, leaning against me. I told him I would love to pet him but what does your Mom say? Before I could ask her she told me it was okay & then apologized for him. I told her there was no worries & nothing to apologize for. I was very pleased. It had been a long time since I had a conversation with a dog without a word spoken. Dogs are amazing creatures. My leash & collar when employed is 100% communication provided that I as the human use it that way. It's also why I had a time working with clients because far too many wanted a robot dog when training was finished. I do not train for robotic response. I train dogs to use their brains... more's the pity humans can't be taught as easily to use there 

Click,

I would say you're right except I know too many who have indeed done harm to dogs with their treats. There is a local woman here with a lovely dog who weighs twice his normal body weight. She's not the only one I know, just simply the worst one. I have been offered a job to train her, work with her privately because they think I can get through to her. While I'm flattered these two trainers think I can get through the wall, I do not believe it's possible unless this woman decides she wants help. She has loved 3 dogs prematurely to their graves & the 4th dog her son dognapped & took home, getting him exercise & proper diet until the vet declared him healthy. Don't know how they'll work that out but I believe this woman is filling a void within herself & using the dog to do so. It's heartbreaking because she's not a mean woman, she loves them but she's taken click & treat training to an extreme that has become harmful to the dog & everyone around her wants to snatch the clicker away & do very bad things to it. IT's not about the clicker. She's been booted from stores over it (I left once because she gave me a headache). It's really sad & I feel for the lady.

Skylar,

You might think me barbaric but I have in fact done that very thing. I worked with k9 officers & there was one every now & again who thought my rules didn't apply to him. He did, after all, carry a gun & badge. Bless his little pea picking heart, my title outranked his badge on my field because if he didn't pass muster with me, he was in trouble on his job. I rarely pointed that out. But one guy had to pull a stunt when the big boss from D.C. was on sight. He came out & made a big hairy deal about the treatment of the canine that he witnessed. I think the man was ready to come after me but I already had the collar at the ready. The boss said, "what are you doing?" I responded, "he who gets rough with a dog on my field becomes my dog... I in turn will give him an opportunity to decide if he wants to be HIS dog, treated the way he's treating his dog... or if he wants to be my dog... treated they way I handle a dog." And they wear the prong on their upper thigh & while i am greatly capable of giving the kind of correction that makes them nearly wet their pants... They spend about 10 minutes being treated the way they treat their own dog... then they spend 20 being treated properly. I don't speak to them in english except a command that they should know. At the end of those 30 minutes we have a discussion with the entire group. Not fun for them. From there they are on probation & yes, I have ended handler's k9 days for their mistreatment of dogs & I lose no sleep over it. To hurt or make a dog fearful is to lose the dog... the men have a choice, the dogs have not.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Overfeeding a dog is a big problem for sure. Anything taken to extremes is. What this woman is doing isn poorly timed clicker training. She’s noisemaking and feeding. Not the same thing at all! Ugh, now I am all upset.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I agree. She thinks she's doing as she's been taught & for her, she's training with love. I've heard many attempts to help her. I've even taken the clicker & shown her. It's also interesting that her dog is very well trained when I handle him but not for her. It's heartbreaking. One of the trainers tried my method of basically mirroring what she's doing but thus far... nada. She is amazed at how behaved he is with me.


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