# Need help identifying colors in my 1st litter



## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

Hello all,
So I have two poodles which I will include there embark profiles below, I planned on maybe breeding them in time once I've done the proper research but unfortunately my girlfriend left them together while she was in heat one day and her pups were born thanksgiving day. Once I learned she was pregnant I made vet appointments and bought everything needed to ensure everything would go smooth which it did. The pups are thriving and mom is doing well also. I will post a picture below of the litter any help with identifying the colors would be such a help also open to any advice. Thanks
























Paris’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - Paris wants to share her results with you!




embk.me












Krypto’s Embark Dog DNA Results


Embark dog DNA test - Krypto wants to share his results with you!




embk.me


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

Here are there parents:


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

At least three of them are merle, two blue (black based) and one "red" (brown based). The light colored one in the upper left corner looks like it could also be a "red" merle, but not just a regular merle, but a double merle, meaning that it is genetically M/M, not M/m. There are some serious health issues associated with double merle, including blindness, deafness, and overall lack of vigor. Red, apricot, and white Poodles will not physically show merle coloration, since the e/e marker doesn't allow expression, but both your dog's testing shows that they are M/m, meaning that they are both merle. When it comes to breeding, a dog who is M/m should never be bred to another M/m dog to avoid the possibility of producing double merles. 

Merle is not a pattern traditionally found in Poodles, but was introduced several generations ago by crossing Poodles with herding breed, and then back crossing to Poodles. After about five or six generations, DNA testing will show only Poodle, due to the back-crossing. The reason merle dogs can be AKC registered is that breeders of the original crosses falsified breeding records, either through carelessness or deliberate intent to deceive people.


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

TeamHellhound said:


> At least three of them are merle, two blue (black based) and one "red" (brown based). The light colored one in the upper left corner looks like it could also be a "red" merle, but not just a regular merle, but a double merle, meaning that it is genetically M/M, not M/m. There are some serious health issues associated with double merle, including blindness, deafness, and overall lack of vigor. Red, apricot, and white Poodles will not physically show merle coloration, since the e/e marker doesn't allow expression, but both your dog's testing shows that they are M/m, meaning that they are both merle. When it comes to breeding, a dog who is M/m should never be bred to another M/m dog to avoid the possibility of producing double merles.
> 
> Merle is not a pattern traditionally found in Poodles, but was introduced several generations ago by crossing Poodles with herding breed, and then back crossing to Poodles. After about five or six generations, DNA testing will show only Poodle, due to the back-crossing. The reason merle dogs can be AKC registered is that breeders of the original crosses falsified breeding records, either through carelessness or deliberate intent to deceive people.


Thanks for your reply. I have done heavy research on the whole "merle" thing an totally agree. The whole hidden for generations thing doesnt make since to me either as the health problems would have been present even if it was "hidden". I bought my boy first knowing he was obv merle. but I didnt know half of the info I know now and everything Ive learned about the AKC program. When looking for my current female I came across a breeder an we talked for weeks before I came to pick up her up. She agreed to help me as she had been breeding poodles for 15+ yrs and read over my embark tests telling me that there would be no problems breeding the two together. To be 100% honest I didn't read the embark tests in detail at the time because I didn't completely understand them, therefor going off the breeders word. Even though this pregnancy was unplanned it could have very well been a plan for the future so that's unfortunate that I was told that so maybe she read the test wrong? So my question now is there anything I should be looking for that would help me identify if there's anything wrong with the pups an around what age should i be looking for these signs?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

To start, a bit more about merle genetics. A dog with a single merle gene will have mottled markings, as you see on many of the puppies in this litter. A dog with two merle genes has a high chance of being blind and/or deaf. The eye and ear structures often do not form correctly due to the interactions of the merle gene. Therefore, breeding two merle carriers is one of the most unethical things a dog breeder can do. If your mentor did not explain this to you - or even worse, encouraged you - then you need a better mentor. Dogs like this poor guy are why double merle crosses are a terrible idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_(dog_coat)#/media/File:Dogge_Merle_homozygot.jpg

Historically, merle has not been found in poodles. It was most likely introduced via an outcross to collies or Aussies, and the outcross subsequently concealed via falsified papers. Why, you might ask, does Krypto’s test show that he is 100% poodle if he’s got a collie or an Aussie in his family tree? These tests take shortcuts. They normally look for markers that are typical of a breed. If Krypto’s herding blood has been sufficiently diluted, then he might have lost most or all the markers that this test uses to identify herding dog ancestry. You have a dog that’s mostly poodle, but serious poodle breeders will not regard him as being a purebred.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Based on these pictures I think you have four black based merles, two brown based merles, four apricots, and a black. Aussie breeders would say you have blue and red merles. Aussies do not have true red/apricot in the breed; what Aussie breeders call a red merle is genetically brown.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

poodlel0ver said:


> Thanks for your reply. I have done heavy research on the whole "merle" thing an totally agree. The whole hidden for generations thing doesnt make since to me either as the health problems would have been present even if it was "hidden".


As I mentioned, merle patterning doesn't show up on dogs who are e/e on the E locus. A dog has to be E/e or E/E to be able to express the merle pattern. The fact that you can't just look at a red, apricot, or white Poodle and see the merle patterning is one reason that merle in Poodles is so problematic. This talks about how e/e "hides" merle. Dog Coat Colour Genetics


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Based on these pictures I think you have four black based merles, two brown based merles, four apricots, and a black. Aussie breeders would say you have blue and red merles. Aussies do not have true red/apricot in the breed; what Aussie breeders call a red merle is genetically brown.


I think you are right about there being three black based merles. I was fighting with a cat over my dinner and trying to look at pictures and type at the same time.


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

Sorry should have been a bit more clear, she only had 8 pups total the second picture in the original post was just a close up for reference. Going to post some more clear pictures below. Thank you guys so much for your help.












































These white an brown looking ones almost look silver and white without the flash.


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> To start, a bit more about merle genetics. A dog with a single merle gene will have mottled markings, as you see on many of the puppies in this litter. A dog with two merle genes has a high chance of being blind and/or deaf. The eye and ear structures often do not form correctly due to the interactions of the merle gene. Therefore, breeding two merle carriers is one of the most unethical things a dog breeder can do. If your mentor did not explain this to you - or even worse, encouraged you - then you need a better mentor. Dogs like this poor guy are why double merle crosses are a terrible idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merle_(dog_coat)#/media/File:Dogge_Merle_homozygot.jpg
> 
> Historically, merle has not been found in poodles. It was most likely introduced via an outcross to collies or Aussies, and the outcross subsequently concealed via falsified papers. Why, you might ask, does Krypto’s test show that he is 100% poodle if he’s got a collie or an Aussie in his family tree? These tests take shortcuts. They normally look for markers that are typical of a breed. If Krypto’s herding blood has been sufficiently diluted, then he might have lost most or all the markers that this test uses to identify herding dog ancestry. You have a dog that’s mostly poodle, but serious poodle breeders will not regard him as being a purebred.


So from your knowledge your thinking most of this litter is single merle? I know its probably super hard to tell being a day old but I am now super worried.. its not about the money for me it's about making sure all these dogs have a great life and find a great home either way. Both my babies are such a blessing an keep me going on my worst days I dont know what id do without them!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm seeing one black, 2 apricot, 2 that I think are double merles (the creams- they both have darker and lighter spots and neither of the parents carry a spotting gene), 2 blue merles, and one merle that is hard to tell with the lighting, but I think is another blue merle. 

Unfortunately the hreeder you got your female from I'd unethical or clueless at best, not only ok'd breeding.g two merle carriers but also mixing size varieties as per the results.
I highly recommend that you join Puppy Culture if you haven't yet, lots of great breeder to learn from and will help you raise these pups to the heat they can be.
Some of the Puppy Culture protocols will help you test for deafness, and there is a trainer associated with PC that has experience with blind and deaf dogs.


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> I'm seeing one black, 2 apricot, 2 that I think are double merles (the creams- they both have darker and lighter spots and neither of the parents carry a spotting gene), 2 blue merles, and one merle that is hard to tell with the lighting, but I think is another blue merle.
> 
> Unfortunately the hreeder you got your female from I'd unethical or clueless at best, not only ok'd breeding.g two merle carriers but also mixing size varieties as per the results.
> I highly recommend that you join Puppy Culture if you haven't yet, lots of great breeder to learn from and will help you raise these pups to the heat they can be.
> Some of the Puppy Culture protocols will help you test for deafness, and there is a trainer associated with PC that has experience with blind and deaf dogs.


 Thanks for your reply thats makes me feel alot more at ease. I will start looking into PC now. Yeah she claimed it didnt matter that she wasnt 100% standard as she will still produce standard pups with kryptos size or i could breed her down so i had "options" i guess she knew i was inexperienced an tried to use it as a sell tactic sadly. I dont know if it matters but the two whites were born first, then the black an brown colored, then white with the markings, apricots then black. Its crazy because the two whites are the bullies already and bully all the other dogs off the bigger nipples closest to the hind legs, every feeding session even if i put them to the very front the somehow both end up at the back forcing the other dogs to move so i guess thats a positive.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

poodlel0ver said:


> So from your knowledge your thinking most of this litter is single merle? I know its probably super hard to tell being a day old but I am now super worried.. its not about the money for me it's about making sure all these dogs have a great life and find a great home either way. Both my babies are such a blessing an keep me going on my worst days I dont know what id do without them!


The black based merles have enough color on them that I'd be inclined to think they are M/m. Of the two brown brown based merle, the one with more extensive markings is also likely M/m. The lighter brown based merle is the one I'd be concerned about being M/M. The black puppy is almost certainly m/m. On the other hand, without testing, there's no way of telling if the apricot puppies are M/m or m/m, since they are e/e at the E locus, and as such won't physically express the merle markings.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

May we know the age of this apricot mother with hidden merle?

At this point, for safety, you are well advised to spay and neuter the sire and dam as soon as possible. Dam after weaning and some recovery, sire immediately. If you wish to breed and want an ethical, responsible program, there are several here who could recommend appropriate steps.


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## poodlel0ver (2 mo ago)

Streetcar said:


> May we know the age of this apricot mother with hidden merle?
> 
> At this point, for safety, you are well advised to spay and neuter the sire and dam as soon as possible. Dam after weaning and some recovery, sire immediately. If you wish to breed and want an ethical, responsible program, there are several here who could recommend appropriate steps.


She is 1 yr 8 months.. Yes that is my end goal, I want to do things the correct way. I guess i will go ahead an make the appointment for him then.. and also that answers my question if i should keep one from the litter or not if theres no issues with the pup.


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

I can't help with color, but your female is much too young to be bred. Your female was bred at 18 months, she is still a puppy herself. 2 years is the minimum age to breed a female as that is the age they finish growing AND when appropriate health testing can be completed. Not just genetic health testing, but structural testing of hips, eyes, heart, etc. 

If your intent with keeping a puppy is possibly as a breeding dog, then no. I would not keep one. If you want to keep one because you get attached and it will be a spayed/neutered pet, that's different.

Since this litter was accidental, you'll have to consider in the future if you continue to pursue a breeding program whether you are able to keep intact males and females in the same house. Reputable breeders don't have oops litters. 

Should you decide to establish a breeding program, please find a new mentor. This person sounds disreputable. Reach out to a Poodle club in your area. They can guide you on choosing a prospective dog, which type and when to perform health testing, etc.

As someone else mentioned, please look into Puppy Culture or similar puppy program. Hearing and vision can be checked by a vet. BAER is the test for hearing but has to be done by a specialist, but since it's suspected you have double merle I would highly recommend it.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

You can do a DNA test for just the merle gene on the pups that are not obviously merle. Gensol tends to have the best prices M-LOCUS (MERLE) but Vet Gen and VEtnostics should also have merle tests available.


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