# gentle leader v prong



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

currently i use a prong on temperance when we go out walking in public. she walks well, doesn't pull and doesn't even need to be corrected. it just reminds her.

on regular collar she pulls pretty bad.

someone recommended a gentle leader over the prong. what is your feelings on them v the prong? i happen to like the prong and how it works for temperance.

would the gentle leader interfere w/ obedience training to have a dog being corrected by something over it's face?

i'm taking her back to obedience training in a few weeks (She took puppy classes) and i hope this will help us fine tune the training so we can move off prong onto regular collar when walking.

plus get better at stay etc.

thanks.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My trainer said that a prong collar works better of you want your dog to permanently learn not to pull. The correction from the prong collar teaches the dog not to pull. He also said that head halters (gentle leaders) work well while they are on, but many dogs will still pull when off the head halter. 

Finally, he said that a prong collar needs to be used for months even after the dog has been mostly trained in order for the habit of walking nicely to be firmly established.

I know there are many different opinions about this. Just expressing one that I have heard.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

I would never use a prong collar on a poodle. A gentle leader will give you great results and is much more humane.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

I don't use prongs, so I can't compare. I used a head halter on Mia. I was successfully able to wean away the head halter by clipping it to her collar for a bit and then removing it totally. I won't lie I do still use it when I am expecting lots of distractions, but we haven't gotten that far in her training yet. Mainly I don't want her to fail and start pulling again. It was the best thing ever when I started using it. It was almost an immediate off switch. 

If you do decide to switch, Temperance will need to get used to it. Mia fought it for a bit but with lots of treats when I got the head halter out/put it on she learned to tolerate it. You don't want to give leash corrections with the head halter on. It causes a self correction by pulling their head down if they pull. A harsh leash snap may hurt her. 

Mia has learned almost everything with her head halter on as a puppy. So I don't think you'll have a problem with obedience training.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

I won't use a prong or choke collar on my guys. I use a gentle leader, an easy walk harness or a plain buckle collar - depending on the dog/situation. 

Ideally, the best way to teach your dog not to pull is to stop all forward motion the minute the leash becomes tight. Don't say/do anything - just wait for the dog to make slack in the leash, praise and move forward. It does take longer, but the dog learns that a loose leash allows forward movement. It takes a lot of patience and practice (something I don't have, so three of my four dogs are leash trained VERY well - guess who's not!!!) LOL


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I love my prong collars, I just don't like hair getting caught in it. Vegas will do great on any collar now that I've made heel such a strong word in his life, but when I'm walking him with Vienna (who's.. not so good on the leash) he thinks he needs to go in front of her.. but if I have both on prongs they heel great on either side of me.


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## aprhj (Jun 16, 2009)

I have and use both on Poppy. I really like the prong when we are going out or for a walk. She does pull some without it, but not like some dogs I know of. The reason I have the gentle leader is that a prong is not acceptable to use when she will be on her therapy visits, been assessed and pass and will start visits in late Sept, so I had to get the gentle leader. She does not like the gl, but is getting better on it each time. I would not have got the gl but the prong may scratch skin and in assisted living visits we can't risk a cut to the patient's skin. On the prong she behaves perfectly, rarely a correction and just a wiggle then. On the gl, well lets say we walk in circles a lot and she hears "come around" my command to get her into a heel position a bunch. Getting better, but not there yet, although I think she will be fine on our visits with the gl I will still use the prong some also.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Love the prong. I have trained through UD using one. I find that using the prong you can teach a dog self carriage and eventually they can be moved to a regular buckle collar. I find that dogs that are trained with a halti never seem to transition out of them.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

I haven't had to use either on my dogs. But, if needed, I would prefer a prong over a gentle leader.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Be very very careful with a head halter. I have heard of them causing serious neck injuries. For all their medeival appearance, I think prongs are the most humane and safest collar to use on a dog that pulls. Because of the way they work, they actually put *less* pressure on the trachea than a flat buckle collar. And the dog is essentially in control of the correction--no pull=no correction. I have never used a halti with Dexter, but my first poo *hated* it and never completely got used to it.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

thanks everyone. i happen to like the prong collar. 

i am starting back in training on wednesday (she took puppy classes and this is beginner which will really focus more on training and less on baby socialization).

they recommended the prong and i love it. i hope at end of this session to haev her better trained to not pull so i can walk her w/out pulling on a regular collar and leash.


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## Margotsmom (Jun 6, 2010)

I started using a Sensation/Sensible halter after seeing my Spoo's out of control brother turn a corner using one. My girl has not been that much of a problem, though she is still dog reactive about 10% of the time which often takes the form of a lunge. I like the Sensation/Sensible better than the similar one made by the Gentle Leader folks as it sits a bit higher and is simpler. Still it is off her neck, but at her center of gravity. If she lunges I can easily control her. And at 14 months I have a girl who walks very nicely on a loose leash with few reminders. I have not seen much difference if I use her collar instead of the halter, so I don't think she is "addicted" to the harness.


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

I have used both and its different for each dog Casey is amazing on the prong but on the halti he shuts right down and refuses to move.
Mandy can wear both but I hate how the prong makes her neck look dirty LOL.
I use both in different situations and had great success this past few weeks on flat collars untill Sat I took just mandy to a fair withjust a flat collar what a mistake 
There was thousands of people and dogs and she wasn't after other dogs as she just didn't walk nice. LIve and learn next time she will probably have a trainng collar

I will NEVER use a choke chain I hate them though am going to try a martingale to help with the switch to flat collars


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

AgilityIG said:


> I won't use a prong or choke collar on my guys. I use a gentle leader, an easy walk harness or a plain buckle collar - depending on the dog/situation.
> 
> Ideally, the best way to teach your dog not to pull is to stop all forward motion the minute the leash becomes tight. Don't say/do anything - just wait for the dog to make slack in the leash, praise and move forward. It does take longer, but the dog learns that a loose leash allows forward movement. It takes a lot of patience and practice (something I don't have, so three of my four dogs are leash trained VERY well - guess who's not!!!) LOL


I agree with you, no choke collars or prongs in my household either, since having poodles I have never used anything other that a plain buckle collar.
Yes it does take patience, I don't believe in "quick fixes".


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

SnorPuddel;114531 said:


> I agree with you, no choke collars or prongs in my household either, since having poodles I have never used anything other that a plain buckle collar.
> Yes it does take patience, I don't believe in "quick fixes".


I can honestly say I never met a person who owns a standard poodle and walks/obedience trains them with a prong collar.

I believe it is cruel and unnecessary.. There are other methods.

While I respect some trainers' choice in using prong collars I feel that standard poodles are not a breed one should train or do obedience with the prong.

They are not german shep. or rotties that need these "tough" measurements.
I have raised many poodles and trained them to walk properly on a leash and not to pull. I never once used a prong collar to do so.

Maybe there are poodles out there (which I am not aware of) who need the prong but in general this breed aims to please is very easily trained and only needs really a regular chocke chain collar but not a prong. I took several obedience courses with my keepers and never came upon a trainer who suggested a prong collar.

Imagine putting a spiky prong around your wrist and having someone leash walk you with the prong tightening around your writst..
Painful isnt it ? And the neck area is much more sensitive than the wrist.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A regular choke chain collar can do more damage than a prong collar. A prong collar, if used correctly, is less damaging to the trachea than using corrections with a flat buckle collar. We have used prong collars with all of our poodles.

I do not believe that using a prong collar is in ANY way cruel. I also know people who DO train standard poodles for competitive obedience using prong collars.

In fact, I tested my poodles' prong collar on my own skin. A pull of the collar does cause a pinch, but a pinch is much less damaging than a choke collar or flat buckle collar popping against the trachea.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> While I respect some trainers' choice in using prong collars I feel that standard poodles are not a breed one should train or do obedience with the prong.
> 
> They are not german shep. or rotties that need these "tough" measurements.
> I have raised many poodles and trained them to walk properly on a leash and not to pull. I never once used a prong collar to do so.
> ...


Poodles do live to please, both Foxxy and Baldr are that way, and they were the only dogs in their training classes that did not have choke collars on, they only had regular buckle collars. With the exception of Foxxy's puppy classes back in Portland we had clicker training and our instructor insisted on buckle collars. Wish we could have stayed with her, she was awesome !

Are there times that they decide to have a little fun and not turn on a dime, but more like a quarter, or sit immediately but a few seconds later...sure, but they are not robots, and that is one reason I would never want to do competitive obedience, it is so rigid, agility on the other hand is fun


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> .
> 
> I do not believe that using a prong collar is in ANY way cruel. I also know people who DO train standard poodles for competitive obedience using prong collars.
> 
> ...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Elphies obedience class trainer tested each person and dog to gauge whether they needed the prong or not ((hes a firm believer that the prong is easier to train with than any other collar invented)) evidently Elphie and a border collie in the class were the only ones who didn't need it...I wasn't able to go with my mom to the classes because of school but we still purchased the prong and I use it on occasion if I know theres going to be a bit of chaos when we go out

I'd rather see the prong used occasionally than seeing the halti on a dog all the time, but thats just one persons perception

OH and Elphies prong collar has the little plastic nubs on it so that the metal doesn't dig into her neck tooo bad when she pulls ((the trainer wasn't a fan of the plastic nubs))


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> I have never come across a stand. poodle in any obedience school/class whose trainer insisted on a prong.
> 
> I can only speak from my personal 16 years experience of raising and selling dogs to people who do go through obedience school with standards purchased from me and I have yet to see one needing a prong collar.


Well I can speak as someone who has actually titled three Poodles in Obedience. I know many, many Poodle people who use prongs. Heck, my trainer has Minis and she uses prongs. She has put an OTCH on one Mini and a UDX/MACH on another. Oh.. and she has put OTCHs on two other breeds as well. 

Prongs are not about strong arming a dog. Prongs allow handlers to give very slight and subtle corrections. I equate the prong to using a full bridle on a well trained dressage horse.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Well I can speak as someone who has actually titled three Poodles in Obedience. I know many, many Poodle people who use prongs. Heck, my trainer has Minis and she uses prongs. She has put an OTCH on one Mini and a UDX/MACH on another. Oh.. and she has put OTCHs on two other breeds as well.
> 
> Prongs are not about strong arming a dog. Prongs allow handlers to give very slight and subtle corrections. I equate the prong to using a full bridle on a well trained dressage horse.


Interesting analogy.. a full bridle used by a rider who does not have the skill set can damage the mouth of a horse and it's training, it can be a great discomfort to the horse. You typically only use a double bridle in the upper levels of dressage. I have trained in dressage with the double bridle.

Personally I will never use a choke or prong collar on a dog, yes back in the 80's I did use the choke collar, but starting with my Rott in the 90's I never did again. 
I have never used a prong collar, so I can't speak of the experience of using one, I can just say it isn't for me. I would rather my dog take 5 seconds to sit then use a corrective collar or method, but that is just me, and I never intend to compete in obedience.

and congrats to you and you trainer for your titles.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

SnorPuddel said:


> Interesting analogy.. a full bridle used by a rider who does not have the skill set can damage the mouth of a horse and it's training, it can be a great discomfort to the horse. You typically only use a double bridle in the upper levels of dressage. I have trained in dressage with the double bridle.


To continue the analogy, one can also damage a horse with a plain snaffle just as one can damage a dog with a plain buckle collar. When you rode, didn't you sometimes use spurs and/or a whip? Many people think these tools are cruel, but they are often essential in keeping a horse light off the leg.




> I have never used a prong collar, so I can't speak of the experience of using one, I can just say it isn't for me. I would rather my dog take 5 seconds to sit then use a corrective collar or method, but that is just me, and I never intend to compete in obedience.


Yes, having a dog take 5 minutes to sit does not work for competition, but then it also does not work for the average pet owner.  I don't think that everyone has to use a prong, but I've been very happy with the results I've gotten. I started out using a plain buckle and I initially resisted using a prong. However, my trainer convinced me to try a prong and WOW.... I love the results I've gotten. Our healing really improved! I start all my dogs out on a prong now.


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## Searcher (Aug 7, 2009)

How long did you use the prong before you could reliably transition out to a buckle collar?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Searcher said:


> How long did you use the prong before you could reliably transition out to a buckle collar?


When you're confident using the prong, start using the buckle every once in awhile. All I have to do is remind Vegas to heel is he's walking in a way I don't like on any collar and he immediately returns to my left side.

Cbrand, what side do you use for heeling? If you're walking more than one dog, do you have all your dogs walk on that one side or do you heel another dog on your opposite side?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Searcher said:


> How long did you use the prong before you could reliably transition out to a buckle collar?


I don't know. Are you talking competition or just pet Obedience? I think by 6 months Delilah was loose-leash walking well on a buckle collar.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Cbrand, what side do you use for heeling? If you're walking more than one dog, do you have all your dogs walk on that one side or do you heel another dog on your opposite side?


Dogs are always on the left. I rarely if ever tell a dog to "heal" if I'm out walking. Heal means something very specific in competition and sloppy healing out in public can cause bad habits. Trying to correctly heal with multiple dogs would be very hard, though I know there are people who do brace Obedience. 

I'm just happy if I have nice loose leash walking. The command for this is "Easy".


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I was reluctant to use the prong, well more dead set until a few months back. Suri is excellent on leash, but 2 times she got a bit excited and pulled very hard to towards the distraction and I was hurting in the legs and back for a week. 

So I went ahead and got the prong. It really does have a different effect. She walks so much nicer and does not "react" in a hard pull with her distraction. BUT it is not something I intend to use often. I think we have pretty much broke the possibility of her pulling like she did - I think the prong helped her situation. When we met our trainer she had a dog and she barked a couple times at them and got a bit excited but nothing like she had done in the past.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

CBrand:

As I said I respect those who use prong collars but I will not with my dogs.
I have numerous clients who put CD and CDX on dogs they aquired from me and not a single one has done it using a prong. 

I know of someone , very well known obedience person in Ontario whose poodle has numerous titles and was the first tracking dog in Canada NEVER did she use a prong to train her dog in multiple venues. she has done it easily and without need of a prong.

I deal with several obedience instructors and have never been told that they train with prong collars. 

WHY would any dog who has an obedient and wonderful temperament and who aims to please his owner and loves working in performance need a prong collar to train with ??

But as I said.. I have no doubt that others swear by them.. it is just a matter of preference and choice... not to say that I do not respect those who use them.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

cbrand said:


> To continue the analogy, one can also damage a horse with a plain snaffle just as one can damage a dog with a plain buckle collar. When you rode, didn't you sometimes use spurs and/or a whip? Many people think these tools are cruel, but they are often essential in keeping a horse light off the leg.
> 
> Yes, having a dog take 5 minutes to sit does not work for competition, but then it also does not work for the average pet owner.  I don't think that everyone has to use a prong, but I've been very happy with the results I've gotten. I started out using a plain buckle and I initially resisted using a prong. However, my trainer convinced me to try a prong and WOW.... I love the results I've gotten. Our healing really improved! I start all my dogs out on a prong now.


I'm sorry (I sometimes suck at getting my point across, wish I was more like my stepmom), my point was more that a double bridle is used by dressage riders and horses at a higher skill set level and that prong collars should also be used by someone who is not a novice and just wanting a "quick fix" - that was all I was trying to convey. If one is going to use a prong collar one should have a responsible trainer show one how to use it. 
I can't imagine going onto a forum to learn how to use a double bridle.

I have never had a dog that took 5 minutes to sit, that would be frustrating. We all have the training methods that work best for ourselves and our poodles. I have no doubt that you know how to use the prong collar and not hurt your dogs, I am not sure a novice without proper training could get the same results as you. I have heard that your Sabrina is one of the happiest working dogs in the obedience ring, so I know that your methods work for you and your poodles, a happy Sabrina proves that.

To answer your other questions which were valid, yes I had both the short stubby spurs (not the fancy cowboy ones) and I also did have a riding crop, I never used my crop, I had bought it as it was something that everyone did at the time, but my crop spent most of it's time stuck in my riding boot. I do not believe in the use of crops, especially with race horses, they are bred for their love of running, they don't need a reminder to run faster.
When I started riding I was young and impressionable, but living on a farm with my grandparents I learned a new respect for animals.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

When I started riding I was young and impressionable, but living on a farm with my grandparents I learned a new respect for animals.[/QUOTE]


Beautifully said Lisa.


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## BobD (Jul 28, 2010)

I use a Premier Easy-Walker front-pull harness. It works great and I am in the process of transitioning back to a flat buckle collar. I just started Corbin in beginner competition obedience. Not so much for titles (although, I plan on competing if we make a good team) but more for the training, discipline and the bonding experience. I've read the horror stories that go along with competition obedience training of old where strong correctional training methods were the norm and [mistakenly] thought to be necessary for the dog/human team to excel at the sport. I enjoy reading about successful competitions using modern positive training methods and I consider myself to be part of that new training regime i.e. positive methods only. I hope it works out for Corbin and I in the ring, but if it doesn't I'll take the bonding experience and go home with my best bud. No prongs, chokes or shocks for my dog.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I have used Prong collar on My gsd before and I think its a great tool if used properly. Back in the day I did not fit the collar on properly and it still worked. 

I have also used a halter harness or gentle lead. I did not like these because usually when you work with smart breeds such as poodles , GSD, etc... they will not stop pulling once you stop using the gentle lead anymore. 

My gsd would know what the gentle lead was for and when it was not on her she would not mind my commands. I am old school and like correction chains and prongs. They have worked for me over they years I have trained I gradually stop using both once I get what is needed out of the dog. 

Most Sch and PSA trainers use prongs and chains with success it just depends on how they are used and the owners preferences also what breed and dogs temperament


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Our Poodle Specialty was on Friday. Today I was talking to the woman who went High in Trial with her Standard. Out of curiosity, I asked her if she ever trained with a prong. Her response? "Heck ya!" She said that she had three Poodles and she used a prong at some point on all of them. I'm including her picture below. You can see what a happy worker her dog is. 

HIT Tuelz Wild Prairie Snow RE
(CH Afterglow the Big Tease X CH Tuelz Unique Heart and Soul)


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Our Poodle Specialty was on Friday. Today I was talking to the woman who went High in Trial with her Standard. Out of curiosity, I asked her if she ever trained with a prong. Her response? "Heck ya!" She said that she had three Poodles and she used a prong at some point on all of them. I'm including her picture below. You can see what a happy worker her dog is.
> 
> HIT Tuelz Wild Prairie Snow RE
> (CH Afterglow the Big Tease X CH Tuelz Unique Heart and Soul)


Excellent Thanks for sharing !


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

From my own experience, obsessing about equipment doesn't get at what makes a dog a happy worker or a confused, worried, shut-down (non)worker. I've used a prong carefully on two high-drive poodles and never seen resentment or fear of the collar. On the other hand, I've managed to shut down a non-poodle without touching her, with a handful of food and a clicker! Why? Because she still felt the pressure of my expectations and didn't like it. And the only time I have upset Dexter in training, he was off-lead doing a recall, and sensed my frustration when he was distracted by a puppy behind me. 

In my experience, lack of clarity and negative emotions are what really upset a dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting debate - the use of any collar other than a flat buckled collar or a harness in pet dog training classes is something of a no no in the UK. In fact I don't think I have ever seen one in use anywhere in the UK, although they are for sale (I have just seen a toy dog sized one on eBay, which seems extremely bizarre to me).


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> Interesting debate - the use of any collar other than a flat buckled collar or a harness in pet dog training classes is something of a no no in the UK.


Along with laws against docking and plenty of footpaths, another reason why discerning dogs choose to live in the UK .


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> From my own experience, obsessing about equipment doesn't get at what makes a dog a happy worker or a confused, worried, shut-down (non)worker. I've used a prong carefully on two high-drive poodles and never seen resentment or fear of the collar. On the other hand, I've managed to shut down a non-poodle without touching her, with a handful of food and a clicker! Why? Because she still felt the pressure of my expectations and didn't like it. And the only time I have upset Dexter in training, he was off-lead doing a recall, and sensed my frustration when he was distracted by a puppy behind me.
> 
> In my experience, lack of clarity and negative emotions are what really upset a dog.


I wish there was a "like" button for this!


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