# Good breeder or rescue ?



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Some things to ask yourself:
How important are certain traits: non-shedding, specific size, etc?
What is your ability to work with issues: fearfulness, impaired vision, house soiling, luxating patella, etc?

I think rescue is great for someone who is able to be very flexible in their choice of dog and is able to manage the emotional baggage of a dog that might have been very traumatized by its trip through the rescue system. A breeder is better for someone who has particular non-negotiable needs.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

What kind of medical costs can you handle for a designer dog? They may be higher than for a purebred dog that's been properly tested.


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## Mini Mindy (Oct 31, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Some things to ask yourself:
> How important are certain traits: non-shedding, specific size, etc?
> What is your ability to work with issues: fearfulness, impaired vision, house soiling, luxating patella, etc?
> 
> I think rescue is great for someone who is able to be very flexible in their choice of dog and is able to manage the emotional baggage of a dog that might have been very traumatized by its trip through the rescue system. A breeder is better for someone who has particular non-negotiable needs.


Very good point in my opinion a rescue dog at one time was probably a puppy mill dog

I learned a few things in the past 15 years after having Maggie I know now she was probably a puppy mill dog but she worked out great for us . Only issues I had with her when she was four she had a cataract on her left eye never really affected her when she was about 12 blood test showed that she had kidney issues she never showed any issues associated with kidney problems

Two thing at the top of my list 1) non-shedding 2) 17lb or less a


Dianaleez said:


> What kind of medical costs can you handle for a designer dog? They may be higher than for a purebred dog that's been properly tested.


Yes that the reason I'm trying to find a good breeder that does the test., As far as designer dog that what I had before didn't do much research at the time she had very few costly health issues , but this time I want to try to lower the possibilities of having issues that's reading I'm considering a purebred poodle with proper testing over the parents before breeding , now I just need to find a breeder I feel comfortable with , a problem with some good breeders they have a long waiting list time at my age that's an issue don't want to rush into it but time is not on my side ☺ on the upside we are both retired so we can devote more than enough time with our new member to the family and we have experience in the last 15 years by having Maggie so we won't go into this blind as far as taking care of new puppy


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The strict requirement for less than 17 pounds is a concern. A mini poodle and a cavalier should both fall in that range. A cocker spaniel is 10 pounds heavier, and a retriever is heavier than most standard poodles. I think you would be gambling to get a cocker or retriever cross and hope it would stay under 17 pounds. Aside from poodles, there are several other delightful, low-shedding small breeds. Havanese, Bichon Frise, and Papillon are all breeds I would consider for myself if I were downsizing.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

brianlindaochs said:


> I've been going online looking at different options for a small non-shedding dog the shortlist now is a purebred mini or toy poodle, or non-shedding designer dog like a cockapoo cavapoo. The problem I had with cockapoo and cavapoo don't seem to be any standards when testing the parents before breeding whereas some of the poodles sites should I do testing of the parents before breeding and I feel this could be a big Plus in the health of the dog in the future .


Crossbred dogs do not have standards. To put it bluntly, they are mutts. Anyone who claims that their cockapoo or cavapoo will not shed is not being truthful - the dog might or might not shed and there is absolutely no way to tell which a puppy will be. People who do crossbreeding are usually not going to have done health testing on the parents.

So my advice is to use the local poodle or all-breed clubs to find a recommendation for an ethical breeder. Incidentally, even poodles shed - they just don't deposit hair all over the house. When you brush a poodle, any hair that is shedding will come out in the brush - there won't be much, but their will be some.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

Everybody sheds. You shed. I shed (just ask my hairbrush). All dogs shed. 

Some shed less. Some shed more. 

Several years ago, I fostered a rescue that was most likely a goldendoodle. His personality was very standard poodle. He shed bucketfuls all year long, more during coat-blowing seasons. My vacuum hated him. I used to have arguments with people who wanted to adopt him "because he didn't shed." They didn't want to believe me when I told them that the only way to guarantee a dog wouldn't shed (or shed minimally) was to get a purebred from a low-shedding breed. I was afraid that someone would adopt him, find out that he really did shed a lot, and dump him. Big sweet dog -- not his fault that his hair follicles released hairs on a regular basis!


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Why do you think age an issue?

If you can go for walks, brush 15-20 minutes, and bend over to pick up poop then your qualified.

Being older and retired is generally a good thing... Expendable income, lots of time to devote to a loving house... It's generally a good fit. You never know until you start looking. Don't count yourself out.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm sorry that your beloved Maggie has passed. Most of us are also sadly familiar with the sound of a too quiet house.

As you gather information, you'll be better prepared to decide what kind and level of risk is acceptable for you. 

I don't have a lot to add about rescue because that's pretty straightforward.

If health and health testing is important to you, you'll find that very few crossbreeders would be paying for the health testing of two different breeds let alone one.

Cross breeds can't have a breed standard because just putting two breeds together doesn't actually create a third. Mixing two (or more) breeds is truly a double barrel genetic shotgun. It takes generations of knowledgeable breeders and very selective breeding to create a reproducible genetic result identifiable as a separate breed.

Until/unless that happens, the results will be unpredictable. You have different sizes, different physical structure, different performance reasons that the breeds were developed for, different temperaments, different coat types, different heritable health issues...

A quality breeder of purebred dogs is looking at each of those characteristics and more before they pair dogs of the same breed, let alone add in the surprises of another breed.

Practically every one of us has had a "designer breed" dog in their life. We just called them mixes, didn't pay thousands of dollars for them, and loved them with all our hearts.

For the purebred dogs, quality, conscientious breeders will be doing health testing as recommended by the official breed club, The Poodle Club of America. Toy and miniature poodles have slightly different recommendations since each poodle variety have slightly different issues, as will any purebred dog.

Since it has been a while for you, I'll add a Tips list to give you some additional info.

There's very good info above from other members. What I'll add will have some redundancy but I think it will bear repeating.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.* What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders many of us prefer to support are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from*. For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breedings are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews,* a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance*. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder.* The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*
There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions. Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if *the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed. *If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times* and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts, *let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences are understandable but* keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend *in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel *outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of* are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights (breeding rights which allow pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission.* A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*Avoid broker sites*. Conscientious breeders would simply not use brokers.

*Be wary of breeders using trendy, marketing *terms such as "teacup", "tiny", "royal", giant" and/or charging more for certain colors, sizes, or gender.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.* That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

*An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. *An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

*As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.*

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._


*Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time *

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally, and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

If you tell us what part of the country you're in and how far you could travel to meet the breeder and puppy we could recommend some breeders.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

I have had two cockapoos. Neither was below 20lbs or overweight. When I got the second one, I realized that all the bred for health was a lie because I could now see all the structure issues with the older one. He also had all the skin issues of a poodle and developed cancer young like a cocker spaniel (10 years). The claim is cockapoos don't have the health issues like the purebreds so that was bunk too.
The latest puppy is a spoo. He has health testing and was raised with children at the breeder's home. We ended up with the first cockapoo because the cocker spaniel puppy from a show breeder had never seen a child and decided he hated my child.


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## Mindy Mini (Oct 31, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> If you tell us what part of the country you're in and how far you could travel to meet the breeder and puppy we could recommend some breeders.


Eastern Pennsylvania willing to travel 500 miles for mini female poodle looking for light color or white been looking be ready after December 14th but breeder must do testing of parents like the saying goes pay the breeder not the vet


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## Mini Mindy (Oct 31, 2021)

Want thank everyone for your input . I posted on member introduction my new best friend I found . 
After searching almost every place and considering all the options it all was worth it I found my mini poodle a white female from an "excellent" breeder on AKC marketplace .
I had concerns about getting a puppy because of our age 72 and 70 but should something happen to us that we can no longer take care or Mindy our daughter will be adapting her that was a question the breeder also ask . 
At the time we had to say goodbye to Maggie after 15+ years we said never again but we soon realized the house was not the same. We are bless to find Mindy . No one will every replace Maggie but so far Mindy is doing great . After only 7 days very few accident inside last night she sleep in the create 10 hours before waking up with out any issues . I know alot don't recommend having a new puppy sleeping in your bedroom but we do in her crate so we know if she needs to go out .


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## Mini Mindy (Oct 31, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry that your beloved Maggie has passed. Most of us are also sadly familiar with the sound of a too quiet house.
> 
> As you gather information, you'll be better prepared to decide what kind and level of risk is acceptable for you.
> 
> ...


I took your advice thanks you found my forever new best friend Mindy female mini poodle from a breeder that check off all the boxes for an first class breeder and fairy close to home one of the many things I like about the breeder she does not ship puppies must be picked up and both parents are tested and you can see then we stop in when the puppies where 6 weeks old to meet everyone pick her up at 9 weeks old


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Awww, congrats! She is so adorable and will surely help your heart to heal <3

Whoever says puppies shouldn't sleep in your bedroom either has allergies or is mean. They need to be near us, especially if they are an only dog.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

So sorry for your loss of Maggie. But HUGE congrats on your new beauty Mindy!

I totally understand your change of mind from "never again" to "I NEED a dog in my life to make my house a home!" I had the same emotionally wrenching experience when my rescue miniature poodle Sully passed. And like you, I had decided "never again" and "I'm too old for a puppy." But my heart and better angels over-road the fear and I found myself revisiting breeder websites and looking for available miniature poodles. Tyler came home with me on December 14. Best decision ever. 

Mindy is gorgeous! Enjoy those precious miniature poodle puppy kisses! 🐩


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

She's lovely. Congratulations


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Gorgeous! And I also highly recommend letting pups sleep in your room! They need to be with their people, especially in those first days.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Gorgeous little pup! Congratulations!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm so happy for you all ❣ 

Mindy is lovely and I believe that Maggie is happy that you all have found each other. Hope you all stick around and share your journey!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Congratulations to you and Mindy!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Congratulations to you all. Mindy is adorable and I love the tribute to your beloved Maggie. She is with you in spirit.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

All my dogs have slept in my room. 

Your new pup is wonderful, congraulations.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Mindy is precious - congratulations 🥳🥳!!

ETA: my pets sleep wherever they like, and I'm lucky that's usually in bed with me 😊.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

What a lovely pup! Congratulations.


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## Mindy Mini (Oct 31, 2021)

Minie said:


> Congratulations to you all. Mindy is adorable and I love the tribute to your beloved Maggie. She is with you in spirit.





Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry that your beloved Maggie has passed. Most of us are also sadly familiar with the sound of a too quiet house.
> 
> As you gather information, you'll be better prepared to decide what kind and level of risk is acceptable for you.
> 
> ...


Belated thanks for your post good information . We were very fortunate to find our new best friend she is exactly the one we wanted from the start of our search from a breeder that check off all the points you listed .


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Breeder or Rescue? It's not always a dichotomy. 
I 'rescued' Tonka... from a 'breeder'. 
I found out that we had a well known Poodle breeder in my area. So I went and knocked on their door. Told them I was looking for a Poodle and... lo and behold... they had one. 
His previous owner had married a man from a culture that considered dogs to be vermin.
So he was returned to Cantope... and then to me! 

I'm glad you found your Mindy. So this advice may be for others reading this thread.


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## princess83 (Jul 21, 2018)

Maggie will always be in your hearts. 

Congrats on Mindy, she is absolutely beautiful! So glad you all found each other 🧡


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