# Question about Family Affair Standard Poodles breeders



## Beuzkhof (Sep 26, 2020)

They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina. 

I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies. 

Instead, what they said to me via email is:

"We don't do a lot of testing. We have in the past, generations ago. But we have been breeding Standards now for 25+ years. We spent our resources ensuring that we brought in lines from around the world where there were no health issues. The issues all came from the inbreeding in the US in the past 40 years. Any testing that has been done will be listed on the Pedigrees along with the COI percentage."

How acceptable is this? Just looking for feedback. This would be our first Poodle, but we've had other dogs before. 

One other question as an aside, we love the look of Parti Poodles and Reds/Apricots, but have been warned by other breeders that health testing is an absolute prerequisite with these types because of historical inbreeding issues.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

As far as I am concerned this is a complete cop out on their part. I do not think there is anywhere in the world with no health issues. Top American and European lines are shared all the time by the best breeders to improve gene pools, but disreputable breeders will often import dogs from Europe simply because top quality breeders in America will not allow them to have breeding rights because they have much higher standards. A responsible breeder still always tests to ensure they are doing their best to avoid potential health issues. The simple reason they do not test is that they know they can get by without it. They are a business, plain and simple. They will not put more effort into producing good puppies than they need to in order to find buyers willing to pay their prices. A responsible breeder health tests not because their buyers demand it, but because they themselves want to breed the best dogs they can. It's an ethical issue. I prefer breeders that are not breeding for profit, but who breed dogs for a purpose and title at least some of their dogs to demonstrate their worthiness to pass on genes. Breeders that breed for business don't do these things, and it makes you wonder what other corners they're cutting with your puppy. The Poodle Club of America will not recommend any breeders that aren't following OFA recommended health testing.


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## Beuzkhof (Sep 26, 2020)

Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting- the demand is so high, they don't need to do the health testing to get people to buy. Especially with the Parti/Red/Phantom colors. 

All that said, they still have really good reviews. 4.8/5 on Google. Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there. 

Do you think that Partis/Reds/Phantoms are generally 'riskier' dogs to get, even with a health test, because they're a newer fad and promoted by lower-integrity breeders?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Partis have a rich history:















Parti Poodle History


We host dog seminars at Canine Horizons. This site features pictures, articles and videos about Standard Poodles, about parti-color Standard Poodles, Bridge and Target techniques, musical canine freestyle.



www.caninehorizons.com





But since they cannot currently be shown in AKC events, you're likely to have a tougher time finding parti breeders who are working to improve their lines.

I recently did an Embark DNA test on Peggy and have been horrified by how many of her close relatives came from questionable beginnings. It's very sad.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. Good for you for doing your homework, Beuzkhof. It'll pay off. You're going to be so in love with your first poodle.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Beuzkhof said:


> Yeah, that's the sense I'm getting- the demand is so high, they don't need to do the health testing to get people to buy. Especially with the Parti/Red/Phantom colors.
> 
> All that said, they still have really good reviews. 4.8/5 on Google. Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there.
> 
> Do you think that Partis/Reds/Phantoms are generally 'riskier' dogs to get, even with a health test, because they're a newer fad and promoted by lower-integrity breeders?


In general, I would say yes those colors are very popular with disreputable breeders because they are trendy and the demand is so high. But there are genuinely good breeders producing all of them. You may just end up waiting longer.

In regard to reviews, I do not trust reviews from the general public. I prefer reviews from experienced dog people. Most people write a review right after they get their puppy, not years later when they can accurately describe their dog's temperament and health issues. So my expectation is that you would get mostly positive reviews. In Miami we have a lot of puppy stores selling puppy mill puppies or worse... imported mill puppies. I checked their Google reviews. Almost all are above 4 and a few I see are 4.7 and 4.8. So I think this supports my feelings. In reality these stores are horrors to educated dog people.


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## Beuzkhof (Sep 26, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Partis have a rich history:
> 
> View attachment 470081
> 
> ...


That's interesting- didn't realize that the Partis had such a rich history. Also the point about AKC events- hadn't thought of that.

So it sounds like with your dog, the DNA test unearthed some issues. Did you get a clean health test on your dog when they were a puppy prior to purchase?


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## vanydog (Aug 23, 2019)

Just a fyi, breeders generally don't health test the puppies themselves, they generally have numerous health tests done on the dog's parents months in advance. 

Also, I wouldn't purchase dogs from family affairs since they have no health tests or health guarantee. I also find it disgusting that they have a lot of special needs puppies (30+ as I'm writing this) and sell them for "discounted prices" when they should instead be placed in good rescue homes IMHO. Also the fact that they have so many special needs dogs shows that their reasoning for not health testing is a complete sham.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Beuzkhof said:


> That's interesting- didn't realize that the Partis had such a rich history. Also the point about AKC events- hadn't thought of that.
> 
> So it sounds like with your dog, the DNA test unearthed some issues. Did you get a clean health test on your dog when they were a puppy prior to purchase?


Her dam and sire were health tested, and she got a clean bill of genetic health from Embark. But I got lucky in a lot of ways. I didn't really know what to look for in a breeder. I've learned a lot since joining Poodle Forum!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Not knowing your experience looking for what I call conscientious breeders, I'm dropping a link to some resources in the Breeder Directory forum.









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com





Review the health information in the top portion and then you'll find some breeder recommendations. If you look thru those, don't skip the Poodle Clubs (there are many more than are listed) and the multi state listings.

I want to emphasize that it's the breeding parents who get health tested. Puppies get a onceover check by a vet. Any guarantee on the puppies health doesn't have much to back it up without the parents having been tested. I see contracts/guarantees/warranties that exclude conditions that the sire and dam could have been tested for. I see contracts that offer 2 year replacement (could you send a dog back after 2 years?) although some of the serious issues won't come up til later than that. All dogs, purebred and mixed have the potential for heritable health issues.

I'm also going to add my personal criteria for choosing a breeder, just to give some ideas for you.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a wellbred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program 
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup


Dog Search


! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Beuzkhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Beuzkhof said:


> he issues all came from the inbreeding in the US in the past 40 years


What I think they're referring to is known as the Midcentury Bottleneck, actually well over 40 years ago. The Midcentury Bottleneck is actually three bottlenecks. Rather than trust my memory for specifics, I'll drop more links. There's a lot of information out there. If you get interested, just search for Midcentury Bottleneck. 



Diversity in Poodles




Sir Gay










The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addison’s disease - Canine Medicine and Genetics


Background Sebaceous adenitis (SA) and Addison’s disease (AD) increased rapidly in incidence among Standard Poodles after the mid-twentieth century. Previous attempts to identify specific genetic causes using genome wide association studies and interrogation of the dog leukocyte antigen (DLA)...




cgejournal.biomedcentral.com


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Beuzkhof said:


> we love the look of Parti Poodles and Reds/Apricots, but have been warned by other breeders that health testing is an absolute prerequisite with these types because of historical inbreeding issues.


I've never heard that before and have actually not looked into whether parti poodles truly have more or different health issues, so now I know what I'll be doing soon . 

As I understand things right now, parti color is a genetic coat color difference only. Genetics of course can be tricky but I'm inclined to doubt that they're more inbred that solid color poodles. If you look into the MCB info, you'll find that standard poodles worldwide have lost much genetic diversity due to the MCB, and the interrelatedness is why COI is also looked at. Parti color is not new, it's just been dismissed by the AKC and some other registry entities. The UKC (United Kennel Club in the US) welcomes parti poodles as part of their registry.

I'd also question the source, possibly motive, of why other breeders (presumably breed-standard-correct) would say that.

I found a link to an old thread here at PF which included at least 2 members who are respected breeders. I haven't read all the way thru yet:








Parti-poodle health issues


I would love to hear from all parti-poodle owners and breeders about this :) !!!! Are there any health problems that are more prevalent in this sub-group of poodle population ? Thanks a lot in advance :ciao:




www.poodleforum.com


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## TXchick811 (Oct 4, 2020)

I wouldn’t buy a poodle from a Breeder that doesn’t do testing or offer a health guarantee. I’ve bought eight poodles (mini and standard) from the same breeder in Vegas for the last 19 years. I’ve lost three over the years and the eldest of my five now is 13.75. These are the best dogs I have ever had and my breeder still has the tests on each of them. When my eldest had an issue in January 2019, my vet asked if certain tests were done. My breeder quickly pulled the tests for my then 12-year old boy, and immediately sent them over. You are going to love this pup for years. He/she will be family. Don’t cut corners.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Beuzkhof said:


> Lots of people do love the dogs they got from there.


It's absolutely possible to get a wonderful dog, a dog that the family loves, from anywhere. Loving a dog doesn't mean that the reviewer is informed about the breed and potential issues, or what to look for in a breeder. It's not until (if) problems come up that they may learn. I wish that for no one.

With my first three poodles, 1963, 1970, 1983, I was not an informed buyer, never thought about needing to be informed and I loved every one of them with my whole heart. They are all still sorely missed.

In 2002, with the internet now available, I was becoming informed. In 2017 I was far more informed but due to forces beyond my control (ahem, DH) we have basically BYB puppies. I wasn't happy but being well informed, I felt we'd manage taking on the unknown, we could afford financially to manage problems, and I knew not to count on the breeder for any kind of support.

If you land on PF, we're going to offer what we've learned. Going back to the quality of the breeder and the poodles they send on to new families, it's not only the individual poodles and the individual families, it's about the health and future of the whole poodle breed.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

@Beuzkhof 

Try *One Fine Cut* on FB, and located in Gray, TN. I first learned about them from this PF thread two months ago and was so impressed I bookmarked the link and encourage you to read it.

They have beautiful, well-bred Parti and solid color poodles that are DNA tested and shown. I don't know if they have any pups left from their most recent litter, but it looks like they are expecting a new litter very soon. The breeders, Ray & Kristy Jones, are members of United Poodle Association (the UPC).

"The UPC serves as the _pending_ national association, representing UKC Poodle fanciers across the United States and Canada and was formed in 2017. It was merger of the Multi-Colored Poodle Club of America (MCPCA) and the United Poodle Breeders Association (UPBA) and carries on traditions from both organizations. The MCPCA led a movement educating about multi-colored poodles and advocating for their place in the breed ring, which began in UKC in 2005." (link)

Check out their member page for other breeders of Parti poodles if One Fine Cut already has deposits on their upcoming litter.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

If you're looking around NC, I would start by contacting Gloria at Tintlet. She was a beloved member here and one of the few high quality parti breeders around. She has shifted her focus to minis, and her daughter has taken over more of the business, but she's an excellent resource. She can point you towards upcoming litters from quality breeders.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I would also look into Shyre in Ohio, Heartsong in Alabama, and Karbit in Texas. Parti breeders are more difficult to find than solid breeders. Parti poodles can't be shown in AKC conformation, and many people just don't find UKC as satisfying.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Windswept would be high on my list if I wanted a parti, though they also have solids as well. I think they're in Colorado.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Crystal Creek poodles in Indiana sometimes has partis.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It is much more likely that a solid color poodle would have the majority of it's ancestors (in 3 to 5 generations) tested simply because people who show poodles (AKC shows) are more likely to have done pedigree research and health testing. Reputable poodle breeders were doing hip x-rays and eye tests in the 1970s, so look for a poodle who has generations of ancestors who tested clear of hereditary diseases.


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## PipersMama (Jun 25, 2020)

vanydog said:


> Just a fyi, breeders generally don't health test the puppies themselves, they generally have numerous health tests done on the dog's parents months in advance.
> 
> Also, I wouldn't purchase dogs from family affairs since they have no health tests or health guarantee. I also find it disgusting that they have a lot of special needs puppies (30+ as I'm writing this) and sell them for "discounted prices" when they should instead be placed in good rescue homes IMHO. Also the fact that they have so many special needs dogs shows that their reasoning for not health testing is a complete sham.


I agree, 100%. I was actually in contact with them for several months when I was looking for my SPOO a few years ago. I was not impressed that they all live outside in their own homes, and that they breed SO many. Most honest and reputable breeders (in my unvast experience), have a few that they breed but are NOT in the business to make money, but to ensure a healthy, happy, sound and disease free (by health testing BOTH parents, and not inbreeding) puppies. This business is a money maker. Heads up.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I recently did an Embark DNA test on Peggy and have been horrified by how many of her close relatives came from questionable beginnings. It's very sad.


I've gotten a couple of questions about this, so wanted to clarify: Peggy's genetic tests all came back clear. However, Embark lets you see the dogs in their database that share your dog's DNA. And that's where I uncovered some surprises.

Some of Peggy's "close relatives" (as Embark calls them) are rescues with very sad pasts. One, for example, was from an entire litter that was abandoned and left to die in brutal weather. Others are from breeders who are clearly trying to churn out partis, purely for financial gain.

As we've experienced with Peggy, parti poodles get a LOT of attention. Most people assume she's either a doodle of some sort or a Dalmatian (which always makes us laugh). She cuts through that (very silly) poodle stigma and reaches a new "audience."

We didn't actually set out to get a parti poodle, but I can see how breeding them might be quite lucrative to someone who is prioritizing profit over poodle improvement, health, and general well-being.

We take every opportunity to educate interested folks when we're out and about. Similarly, I'm happy to speak with anyone here about the early challenges we had with Peggy, and why I'm so passionate now about breeders who prioritize early socialization and carefully match puppies with prospective buyers based on temperament.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I've gotten a couple of questions about this, so wanted to clarify: Peggy's genetic tests all came back clear. However, Embark lets you see the dogs in their database that share your dog's DNA. And that's where I uncovered some surprises.
> 
> Some of Peggy's "close relatives" (as Embark calls them) are rescues with very sad pasts. One, for example, was from an entire litter that was abandoned and left to die in brutal weather. Others are from breeders who are clearly trying to churn out partis, purely for financial gain.
> 
> ...


I had no idea about this. Maybe I missed it. I'm so sorry... that must have been difficult to hear. Peggy is so lucky to have you as her parents. I am sure you have both helped each other to grow as you have worked through challenges. I think she was meant to be with you.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I cant say anything about the breeder you mentioned or the breeding practices others have brought up. Just wanted to say that when I was looking for a mini I came across breeders that had been breeding from the same line since before I was born and I was never told that they didnt do health testing because 'they know their line'. 

This is not accepted by responsible breeders in Europe. In fact some national breed clubs wont even register a litter from untested parents. 

And importing from Europe does not guarantee quality or health, trust me, we have plenty of bad apples. Plus we dont have a centralised system like OFA so any problems are harder to trace.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

This was one of the breeders I dug into for a bit before moving on. My parents had a kennel. I worked for friends of theirs who had kennels. I've worked in many breeding facilities & spent a lot of time at our University Animal Teaching Hospital. I only tell you this so you'll see why this gets amusing later.

I have a new pet peeve. You ask a breeder about their health testing, lines, references & their response is "I have been breeding since before Noah built the ark" answer. Now, let me translate that for you, "I am breeding dogs for money & I'm bluffing you with my many years of experience & hoping you'll send me a deposit before you figure out what I'm doing." Hmmm, that is blunt but it is the truth. I have worked with 2 types of breeders who don't do a lot of health testing but when you ask the lady about her dogs, health, etc... she will tell you when in her kennel history they had trouble with x, y, z issues. She will tell you about the changes she made (might be a change in breeding strategy, might be vitamins, diet, exercise/conditioning changes) & whatever it was, she can tell you the changes she saw & how many generations it was gone before she felt like they had conquered that issue. And if you ask about the ancestry of said dog, you better have a cup of strong coffee, a mind for details & some hours... you will get more than you expected. The other is a man & he is a very old world type of breeder, it'd take a book to go through what he does.

Now back to Family Affair. So after going through their website, I asked questions. It was very telling when I asked about health testing. The lady explained the same stuff as you found except that doesn't work on me. You can do the same job for 25 years & stink at it. I was not unkind. I said, "Okay so if you're not health testing your dogs, what training are they in?" I'd picked a particular pup to talk to them about & inquired after the parents by name. The woman laughed out loud & said, "you must not really have any experience in how busy it is & how time consuming it is to raise puppies." I let her 'school' me for awhile. Uh, huh... yeah... uh, huh. It was very hard to keep my eye roll out of my voice. So in summary, they are breeding dogs who have zero health testing. They are breeding dogs that they know VERY little about concerning trainability/temperament. Cause let me tell you something, a dog who is kenneled (maybe let out in an exercise yard) is not temperament tested. You learn that by hands on the dog, by spending the hours teaching him, by seeing where he struggles, where he excels. The conversation was extremely disappointing.

Next I spent a couple of days off & on looking at videos of puppies for sale. If you have any experience at all with a good breeder & you go see their puppies & they're like, "NEW PERSON! WHOO HOO!" & here they come bounding up to see you, happy, happy or if it's the type of breed they come out & eye you a bit before puppiness gets ahold of them  The breeder can tell you, "now that pup with the black slash on his head, he is a bit temperamental & is not as patient. The Silver beige over here with the dirt on his nose, that is a very laid back puppy. Maybe a little too laid back for a potential agility pup. But now this girl over here..." You see what I mean, this breeder KNOWS her puppies. She knows their temperaments, especially if she's working with them on grooming. Vs what I saw in those videos which were puppies who often times seemed a little shell shocked by the video experience.

For me, this felt far too much like dog farming rather than dog breeding.
Dog farming is about revenue they can generate. This is about get them bred, get them on the web, collect the money, & hope we don't have to refund anything or replace it. (BTW: if you don't live in the same state with the breeder, contracts are hard to enforce.)

Dog breeding is done with purpose. Even if they're only breeding for pets they are doing their best to see that the puppies they produce have the best possible hope for a great outcome. With an ethical breeder their reputation is worth something. They enjoy referrals by word of mouth from previous owners, from someone who saw one of their pups & loves what they see. My SPOO is a Parti. His breeder could tell me a book on each pup in his huge litter, about both his parents. She's stayed in touch with me & celebrates every victory & sighs with me when we stub our toe & encourages my grooming efforts (LOL)... you don't get that from a dog farmer.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Something, too, to keep in mind about "dog farmers" is that they can offer a robust sounding health guarantee, no problem, because they're churning out _so_ many puppies. (Kind of like how Walmart happily accepts returns, because—at that volume—it's actually cheaper for them to deal with issues as they arise than perform better quality control up front.)

A health guarantee doesn't mean your puppy is guaranteed to live a long and healthy life. It often means that if a genetic health issue rears its ugly head a year or two after you bring that puppy home, you can exchange your now beloved poodle for a _new_ puppy.

Can you imagine? 

In some cases, you may also be allowed to keep the sick dog (in fact, the breeder might prefer that, as it would be costly to take back a sick dog), but all veterinary expenses are yours.

I'm still new to a lot of this stuff, but that right there is a very good reason to choose breeders who seek to ensure the genetic health of every dog in their breeding program.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Peggy the Walmart analogy is perfect. It's so sad because to that family that puppy is family. To the puppy farmer, it's another check. The pup farmers do at least normally have their dogs in better living conditions than a mill has. Mills are like something from a horror show.


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## Rug Guy (Jan 29, 2019)

Please purchase from a breeder that performs extensive health testing. I lost a one year old boy from health tested parents to a congenital heart defect at the beginning of this year. Obviously health testing isn’t a guarantee of a healthy long lived dog but it will certainly increase your chances. I still have sadness for my boy we couldn’t save some days


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> Peggy the Walmart analogy is perfect. It's so sad because to that family that puppy is family. To the puppy farmer, it's another check. The pup farmers do at least normally have their dogs in better living conditions than a mill has. Mills are like something from a horror show.


I appreciate the term "dog farm" because it acknowledges there are shades of grey in the business of breeding. It's not just "good breeders" or "puppy mills" and nothing in between.

Farms are not inherently bad. But if you are looking for a companion animal, it's generally best that puppy not be treated as livestock during his or her precious early months. I learned that years ago from the master of socialization, Dr. Ian Dunbar. He discusses this topic in his book _Before And After Getting Your Puppy._


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## RhubarbRaptor (Sep 27, 2020)

Cosmic Caliber is planning a litter with a parti sire next year, so you could check with them. Fireside Poodles is a new breeder with some lovely partis, and a few people recommended Mojazz in the past, but I haven't vetted them yet. If you're looking for reds, Arreau and Propert's Way are the best I've seen.


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## Beuzkhof (Sep 26, 2020)

RhubarbRaptor said:


> Mojazz


Thanks...I contacted them. We live in NYC and have been in contact with most of the tri-state area breeders. We're willing to travel a bit to get to a reputable breeder, but any recommendations in the NY and surounding area would also be great.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Have you checked with City Lights? They have been breeding reds for a while, and I think they are now getting into partis.


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## Beuzkhof (Sep 26, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Have you checked with City Lights? They have been breeding reds for a while, and I think they are now getting into partis.


Yes, emailed them a couple of days ago. Haven't received a response yet.


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## Peridot (Mar 2, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> As far as I am concerned this is a complete cop out on their part. I do not think there is anywhere in the world with no health issues. Top American and European lines are shared all the time by the best breeders to improve gene pools, but disreputable breeders will often import dogs from Europe simply because top quality breeders in America will not allow them to have breeding rights because they have much higher standards. A responsible breeder still always tests to ensure they are doing their best to avoid potential health issues. The simple reason they do not test is that they know they can get by without it. They are a business, plain and simple. They will not put more effort into producing good puppies than they need to in order to find buyers willing to pay their prices. A responsible breeder health tests not because their buyers demand it, but because they themselves want to breed the best dogs they can. It's an ethical issue. I prefer breeders that are not breeding for profit, but who breed dogs for a purpose and title at least some of their dogs to demonstrate their worthiness to pass on genes. Breeders that breed for business don't do these things, and it makes you wonder what other corners they're cutting with your puppy. The Poodle Club of America will not recommend any breeders that aren't following OFA recommended health testing.





Beuzkhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


Hello. Standard Poodles are my second breed but I've owned, bred five litters total and shown Great Danes for 50 years. My co-breeder and I test, test, test...eyes, hips, heart. You want to purchase a quality puppy from a breeder who "Breeds for the Betterment of the Breed". And those breeders, regardless of what purebred dog you may consider, test for the problems that occur in their breed. Trust me. Don't walk away...run away. Go to the Poodle Club of America and find their list of breeders. Then call. You will find someone who is not breeding to pay their mortgage, or car payment. My husband and I acquired a Standard last year from an outstanding breeder who checked me out just like I checked her out. We got a great dog. Exactly what we wanted. Trust me...you won't be sorry for doing the legwork and the homework. Good luck and all the best in your search for the right Poodle. Elise


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## kshaffer3064 (Jul 19, 2020)

Beuzkhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


I adopted one of their retired bitches, I had her DNA tested and she had no genetic disorders. They retire their breeders at age 6 and spay them then adopt them out. She is perfect for me, very well behaved and loving. Red. 25 inches, 70 lbs.


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## James'Mom81219 (Aug 22, 2019)

I got my current spoo from them. He was a rehome. I doubt they test because he tested positive for Giardia the day I brought him home to NJ. I wasn’t impressed with them at all. I got the impression that money came before the welfare of the dogs.


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## LadyRay (Apr 29, 2020)

I got my spoo from them. Had a long talk with them about the lack of health testing, my pups parents, all that. Went ahead with them because I wanted a puppy sooner rather than later (I had a deposit on a puppy from another breeder that fell through). So far, my baby has been amazing. Excellent temperament, no health issues, and everyone loves her. I am actually thinking about getting her into therapy work because she is so well mannered. They did a personality test on her and the results were spot on. Overall, she has been the best dog, possibly the best I've ever had. With all that said, would I go with them again? Probably not. I am a notorious worry-wort and I've been physically sick with worry that my baby will end up with some genetic disease because of lack of health testing. I know testing doesn't guarantee long healthy life, but at least a health guarantee would tell me something. Also she is definitely pet quality, most obvious is her low tail set (but they say on their website they sacrifice "perfect poodle" look for temperament and health. Cant say I wasn't warned). Lastly, I got my baby at 11 weeks and I could tell there was a lack of socialization. But her personality said she was very confident, which has helped her overcome her fears. All that is to say, knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do it again. Would I say they are "unethical?" Not necessarily. They do have a lot of knowledge and have kept in contact with me for 8 months now. They are nice people. I just can't do the worrying over health. It was affecting MY health.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

LadyRay said:


> I just can't do the worrying over health. It was affecting MY health.


I'm so sorry. That sounds stressful.  Have you considered doing an Embark genetic health test? I recently had one done for Peggy and it was such a relief to see her pass with flying colours.


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## buzzieb41 (Sep 21, 2013)

Beuzkhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


I would run, run, run from that breeder. I have two standard poodles that I bought in Ocala, Florida, and they are the most wonderful dogs I have ever owned. Prior to my two Ocala dogs, I owned two standard poodles and three minis. The first standard was bred by a family to show their children the miracle of birth. The second standard, I bought from a questionable breeder (didn't know the breeder was questionable when I got the dog) . The dog was a textbook of health and temperament problems. What I am trying to say is do your homework when acquiring a standard poodle, or any purebred dog. My two Ocala dogs came from a very reputable breeder and so far have been very healthy and happy. My male is 11 years old and my female is 71/2 years old. Save yourself from a possible world of hurt --stay away from those people in North Carolina. 

If I were in a position of adding to my standard family, I would go to* Calisun Standard Poodles* in South Carolina. They are not a "factory farm". They have about one to three litters a year. They do health testing. They have a very informative website chock full of useful and valuable information. The owner is knowledgeable and is willing to answer any questions you may have. They love the breed. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to pick up the phone and give them a call. I couldn't go back to the breeder in Ocala because she is no longer breeding poodles, but I would go to *Calisun.*

You said in your email that you have had many other dogs. Poodles are not "other" dogs. Dogs they are, but they are different...they are terribly smart, they require serious grooming that can be very expensive, unless you can do it yourself, which most people can't. In addition to haircuts and baths, they need to be combed and brushed very often to prevent their curls from being matted.

The other option you may have is go to poodle rescue. There are wonderful poodles out there that need a new home. One caveat...don't mention crates. Some poodle rescues do not want their dogs crated...ever. If they are anti crate, you will not get a dog from a poodle rescue group. But that is another story... Hope this helps.


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## LadyRay (Apr 29, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I'm so sorry. That sounds stressful.  Have you considered doing an Embark genetic health test? I recently had one done for Peggy and it was such a relief to see her pass with flying colours.


Yes I definitely will get her tested! im no longer AS worried (the first month was a bit rough). I remind myself that before getting her (and before developing mild dog allergies), my plan was to go to the shelter and adopt. And of course you never know what you're getting when you adopt haha! so when I look at it that way, it helped with the worry. But Is there an age limit for the test? I checked their website but didnt see one. Shes almost 1 now.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Our 6 year old boys are from Jacknic in Michigan. Kathy Esio King has solids and partis. Her dogs show in confirmation, agility, and obedience. She is very open about the testing that is done.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I don't have anything to contribute about Family Affair poodles. But I have a few thoughts about solids vs multi-colored (to use the UKC term for all not-solid-colored poodles).

*As in horses, dogs, or any other animal, if someone is advertising a "rare" color, be afraid.* They should be breeding for health and structure first, with color selection as the last criteria. A well-known riding instructor I took a seminar from just shook his head at a friend's hammer-headed, plodding paint horse (with an attitude to match) and said, "You always get into trouble when you breed for color."

*Insist on seeing the health test records of the parents, preferably on the OFA website.* If they care about their dogs, they'll have the link posted on the website, or you can look it up yourself, using the dog's registered name. Be familiar with the tests required for your breed (they vary).

*Meet both parents, if you can.* Patricia McConnell, the author and animal behaviorist, wrote about going to look at a litter of border collies with an eye to using one as her working farm dog and companion. She insisted on seeing the parents before looking at the puppies. And what she saw did not please her--so she shocked the breeder and left without even looking at the puppies. She knew she'd fall in love with them, no matter what she thought of the parents, but she didn't want to devote 15 years to a dog that wouldn't be right for the job.

*Find out how the puppies are raised.* Both my poodles were raised with Puppy Culture experiences and sound desensitization. I can't say enough good things about that.

*Ask if the sire and dam are titled in conformation and/or performance.* The breeder of my second dog owns both the sire and dam. They do UKC weight pull with the UKC champion sire. The dam is an Emerald Grand Champion in conformation. Both are mellow dogs and kept in the house. I particularly wanted an obedience prospect, and was just a little wary that there was no history of obedience or rally in the line. I also overcame my resistance to buying an odd-colored (brindle, in Hobbes' case) poodle. Well, he is turning out to be a delightful dog! He's a very quick study, attentive, eager to please, and not so "hale fellow, well met!" as my first poodle, who still wants to go greet stewards in the ring at age 8.5. He earned two CDSP obedience titles and a UKC rally title before turning a year old. We're going to try him out in UKC conformation in November. (The Poodle Club of America, the AKC parent club, considers parti and all multiple colors to be a disqualifying condition, regardless of the fact that parti-colors are all through the history of the breed.)

It's not absolutely required to DNA test your puppy for genetic disease, when you get one, but if the parents weren't, then I probably would--and maybe before picking it up. Better to pay about $125 and say "no thanks" than fall in love with a puppy with bad genes.

And ... as a member of the *United Poodle Association*, UKC's parent club for both standard and multi-colored poodles, I'd like to recommend using them as a resource. Health testing is strongly encouraged. Members are by and large conformation folks, but fully embrace UKC's Total Dog philosophy. Some conformation shows add performance events so exhibitors can try for a Total Dog rosette indicating both a competition win and a performance qualifying score at the same show and trial event. The UPA flatly bans registering poodles carrying merle. You can read more about so-called merle poodles elsewhere.

*Versatility In Poodles* is another organization you might enjoy. My older dog earned Versatility Certificate Excellent with a combination of health tests, conformation wins, and performance titles earned.

Hobbes, in a recent photo:


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

LadyRay said:


> Yes I definitely will get her tested! im no longer AS worried (the first month was a bit rough). I remind myself that before getting her (and before developing mild dog allergies), my plan was to go to the shelter and adopt. And of course you never know what you're getting when you adopt haha! so when I look at it that way, it helped with the worry. But Is there an age limit for the test? I checked their website but didnt see one. Shes almost 1 now.


There is no age limit!  It works, essentially, by taking a cheek swab of the DNA and comparing that DNA to the DNA of other dogs. So you can test any dog, at any time. And I 100% understand the worry--my Fluffy was from a pet store and questionable origins, so whenever the tests go on sale, I think I'll be right there with you!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

LadyRay said:


> Yes I definitely will get her tested! im no longer AS worried (the first month was a bit rough). I remind myself that before getting her (and before developing mild dog allergies), my plan was to go to the shelter and adopt. And of course you never know what you're getting when you adopt haha! so when I look at it that way, it helped with the worry. But Is there an age limit for the test? I checked their website but didnt see one. Shes almost 1 now.


Nope. No age limit. We got our last girl tested as a senior!


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## Janice D. (Apr 15, 2020)

Beuzkhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


I have a beautiful partipoo and have had no health issues as of yet. He is 8 months old today and he is my 1st poodle ever. I've decided that when my now service dog is gone (hopefully no time soon) that I will always have a poodle. He is australian cattle dog and dalmatian mix. But he sheds worse than the samoyed I use to have. Lol I use to sell her wool like undercoat to a lady who use to spin her own yarn. Anyway, back to your post. I've loved all my dogs pretty much the same, but there are some traits I've found to love more. 8Lol


Beuzhof said:


> They run a pretty big operation down in North Carolina.
> 
> I've been emailing with them, and they told me that they don't do health testing for their puppies.
> 
> ...


w


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

@mvhplank the UKC Total Dog title was a genius idea. I love seeing great conformation and great performance tied together with a big ribbon.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Newport said:


> @mvhplank the UKC Total Dog title was a genius idea. I love seeing great conformation and great performance tied together with a big ribbon.


Me too! Here's Neely's haul at the UKC Poodle Specialty and the Carolina Classic in Hickory, NC, in 2015. I miss that set of shows ... it was a 20-minute drive from my cousin's house and was a great way to combine two fun things. The big red ribbon at the left is Total Dog, the purple and yellow ones are High in Trial (Rally) and High Combined (Rally), plus Q and placement ribbons. The High in Trial ribbon is required by UKC for rally; the High Combined ribbon is optional, at the discretion of the club.


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## kcalhoun (Jul 30, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> What I think they're referring to is known as the Midcentury Bottleneck, actually well over 40 years ago. The Midcentury Bottleneck is actually three bottlenecks. Rather than trust my memory for specifics, I'll drop more links. There's a lot of information out there. If you get interested, just search for Midcentury Bottleneck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Rose n Poos said:


> What I think they're referring to is known as the Midcentury Bottleneck, actually well over 40 years ago. The Midcentury Bottleneck is actually three bottlenecks. Rather than trust my memory for specifics, I'll drop more links. There's a lot of information out there. If you get interested, just search for Midcentury Bottleneck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is an excellent article. Thank you!


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## Tessa's Dad (Jul 20, 2011)

Beuzkhof said:


> Do you think that Partis/Reds/Phantoms are generally 'riskier' dogs to get, even with a health test, because they're a newer fad and promoted by lower-integrity breeders?


In some ways, Parti's are the opposite of a "fad".

From my own research I've done, parti's are very much a part of the original stock of poodles. Not the ONLY stock but they were a major part of the original poodles.

If anything the "fad" was breeders in the past ~75-100 years intentionally breeding out parti, phantom and sable colours.
And everything I can find says this was done by NOT breeding parti poodles. Of course to do that, also meant "culling" the bad colours out at birth.
Yes, "culling" means what you probably think it does. They didn't just give them away to poor people. Can't have that. The dog might get sold and bred.

I don't have much issue with the AKC (Or Canadian Kennel Club) not allowing them in show.
But at least the AKC will allow full registration regardless of colours.

Awhile ago The Canadian Kennel Club sent out notices to all breeders that were producing parti colour dogs indicating they were not going to allow it to continue.
I took them to task over it and it ended up with the CKC telling me they were "revising" the Rules of Eligibility for Poodles and that may include restricting certain colours.

Their stated goal is to "preserve the breeds" of all dogs.
Preserving should mean, preserving the ORIGINAL breeds of the dogs.
Not intentionally tampering with the breed(s) to get rid of major characteristics that were part of the original breed.
That would be _"preserving our idea of what the perfect poodle should be." _ Because then, you've deviated from the original.

It became quickly evident that the CKC had a mind of it's own (closed) and planned to do what they felt like.
Well, the CKC exists at the pleasure of the Animal Pedigree Act (ALL animals) under the Canadian Ministry of Agriculture.

I started digging and making phone calls until I found the person at the M of Agriculture that deals with the CKC.
I sent him everything I had on colour research showing just how far back parti poodles go.
This included a self-portrait of Rembrandt with Poodle, circa 1631. (Just short of 400 years ago)
At first glance, it's a parti poodle but it also may be a tri-colour. Black, white and reddish brown.

I don't think it took a week before more letters and emails poured out of the CKC indicating they would not be kicking out members who breed parti's or other colours of poodles. Nor would they be refusing to register them.
Edit: Link to thread: Anyone breeding Parti and/or Phantom Poodles?


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Tessa's Dad said:


> In some ways, Parti's are the opposite of a "fad".
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I don't think it took a week before more letters and emails poured out of the CKC indicating they would not be kicking out members who breed parti's or other colours of poodles. Nor would they be refusing to register them.


Good move, and thanks for stepping up! My young brindle (more about that in a minute) tests very high in genetic diversity. He's genetically sable (two copies), with brown and parti factors. He's fully registered in AKC (as a "black and silver") and UKC as "brindle."

After poking around a bit, it seems that "brindle" didn't start showing up in the records until 1950s. My private and unproven suspicion is that a Dutch shepherd jumped the fence somewhere along the line. How's THAT for genetically diverse?


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