# cooking for 5 dogs ... not 100% raw and no feeding bones



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

okay, i'm starting to shift a bit towards supplementing/decreasing my dogs' kibble (wellness) and shifting towards a mix of cooked/raw/minimally cooked, but no bones as i'm totally indoctrinated in fear of dogs getting hurt on bones (even though sooooo many of you all feed raw bones and i get it)

i've got dr. pitcairn's new book on order and arriving today. i'm reading this website DogAware.com: Homemade Diets for Dogs . i'm already starting a bit by adding some home cooked chicken broth and homemade yogurt etc.

i have a kitchen aid with a grinder attachment, but don't think it's strong enough to grind bones so i'm going to supplement calcium in other ways ... thoughts?

we eat a lot of eggs so egg shells are going to be dried and ground plus fresh eggs cooked

i'm going to buy cheap roasts to grind into gr beef for them in my kitchen aid esp now that i'm reading about how nasty supermarket grind is (was planning on buying already ground but i'm pretty grossed out. i'm just not financially rich enough to buy all organic meat for the dogs. but i can purchase chucks on sale for pretty cheap and grind it for them.

i'm going to pick up canned mackerel and canned salmon.

i've got a vitamix so i can blend some veggies for them too. having it pulverized is good.

i'll add more things as i learn about it. which is why i'm still going to supplement w/ the kibble ...

now portions? how to i figure out how to portion for the individuals? my spoos and lab are all about the same size 45-55 pounds (seelie is pup so needs more and temperance is super skinny and picky eater and totally needs to be fattened up.)

and my 18# cairns? amounts? one has potential to be super chubby ... one of his nicknames is chubs.

thoughts and ideas? 

thanks


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would feed the meat in big chunks, rather than ground - that way you get some of the teeth cleaning benefits. Do you feed twice a day? If you so you could substitute a home-prepared meal for one meal a day, based on half the recommended quantites for each dogs size - so for a 50lb dog that would be around 8 - 12 oz for a meal. I would add some offal (kidney and liver) as well as meat and egg shell - around 1oz offal to each half pound of meat.

If you can find it, raw green tripe is excellent. Smelly, rubbery and repulsive, but excellent, and much loved by dogs!


----------



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

I am planning on going to home cooked meals for my dogs as well. 

Not sure if it's available in the States, but we have an AMAZING Nutritionist up here who has created a product called "HILLARY'S BLEND". Along with a few other supplements. I honestly feel that this option revolutionizes home cooking for your pets. Here is a link to her site - HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals

I work at a vet clinic and thankfully was audience to a seminar featuring Hilary and she is AMAZING! She is so thorough and scientific in EVERYTHING she does. She has actual peer reviewed papers and PROOF of how and why her products along with the computer generated recipes for your dogs work. 

I feel so much more confidence with her and her research, than so much of the "anecdotatal" stories and presumptions made by speakers promoting raw diets. Hilary also brought full food lab analysis from the major raw food distributors up here which black and white PROVED those diets were no where near complete and balanced. 

As for "raw food", working in a vet clinic we do see the negatives of this type of feeding. Salmonella, diarrhea, bone development issues, etc. Plus just the thought of risking my human family to the salmonella and other bacterias which are constantly being shed by many dogs on a raw diets, just not worth the risk to me. 

Anyway, in her program there is a great feeding chart which lays out dogs with different profiles amounts they should be fed. Also she has theraputic recipes available for dogs with issues ie. Kidney failure, Liver failure, heart failure etc...

Anyway, perhaps she can answer your feeding amount questions if you email her, or she can share the charts which help you figure out your dogs dietary, mineral, vitamin needs to have a complete and balanced diet?

Rebecca


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I used Dr. Pitcairn's recipes for about 6 months. The only objection I had to them were the highish amounts of grain. My dogs seemed to love it, though. 'Course, they love anything!! 

Calcium: I believe I used ground eggshell. If I remember correctly (it's been a while since I've had Pitcairn's book out. ) he tells you how to supplement the calcium in. All his recipes are nutritionally balanced, so you'll be adding calcium, vitamins, and oils. But he gives the specific amounts and everything...it takes alllll the guess work out.  

I would personally try to find one or two other protein sources, such as pork and\or chicken. I really object to feeding homecooked\raw fed dogs the same protein source over and over. Fish sounds like a great idea, too. 

Amounts: again, Pitcairn gives you serving sizes by weight, although as with any "serving size" you have to adjust for individuals. 

Basically, everything you need to know is there, with the recipes. I found it really easy when I was doing it. And it's fun to cook for the dogs.  I'm thinking about doing either homecooked or raw again when I build my mini-kennel...it would be super easy to have a fridge and\or freezer out there; I could simply buy meat\bones once every few months, portion it all up, then defrost whatever I need every day. Anyways, good luck with the new diet!! You'll be surprised at how their health will improve; and the hair growth on your poodle (Temperance? Sorry, I've blanked out on it...) will jump! 

Oh, BTW, if you can stomach it....raw meaty bones are awesome for teeth and dogs love them. I've been giving raw meaty bones for probably like 4-5 years now, and no one has ever been hurt by it. Just size the bone according to the dog (so no chicken necks for an 80 lb dog. ) and you should be fine. Although, I can understand just not being able to. I just thought I'd throw my experience with them out there.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

my friend recommended that i get bone meal at the health food store.

the salmonella issue is something i worry about too. so i had considered cooking the meats some. just to take a bit of the skeeve factor out of it for me.

and where does one get tripe and ick on it anyway. i am not sure i can deal with the smell.

as to grains i was considering not doing many of them anyway. some .. but not much. i don't like a lot in their kibble so why cook it for them? i don't eat a lot of grains myself. heh


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Eggshell is not a significant source of calcium for a dog. You need a calcium supplement and you need to calculate how much is needed for each meat mix.

If you don't feed bone, why bother?


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

tortoise said:


> If you don't feed bone, why bother?


I'm not sure I understand this statement... why bother, WHAT?? Home cooking? Because then you know EXACTLY what is going into your dogs! I had been cooking for Lucy for a long time, but like with everything else, she gets bored and I have to switch it up. I had her meals balanced through Monica Segal in Canada and puchased all the supplements/vitamins/minerals I needed to make sure the meat and grains I was cooking for her contained everything her body needed. I rarely fed raw bone (on occasion I'd through them a raw buffalo bone, but the dogs don't get bones as a regular occurance) the calcium supplement I used via Monica's balanced diet was sufficient.

As far as grains, we used some different ones (not what you'd normally find on a dog food bag) except for brown rice, which is more common - we used barley, quinoa, millet, etc... I also steamed and blended small amounts of broccoli, cucumbers, spinach etc..

Good luck with your cooking experiment, Fae!! Keep us updated on the benefits/positives/negatives you find!!

Barb


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Eggshell is actually an excellent source of calcium and trace elements, and has been proven to be so in human and canine studies. Both eggshells and calcium supplements are calcium carbonate, so there really is little difference:
"Eggshells consist of calcium carbonate (94%), magnesium carbonate (1%), calcium phosphate (1%), and organic matter (4%). For those of us who prefer not to use bone meal as a dietary supplement, this is an inexpensive and reliable source."
Eggshell is easily digested, too, especially if it is ground finely - I used an electric grinder.

As a general guide, half a teaspoonful of ground eggshell per pound of meat is about right. 

I do think your dog would benefit from bones as well, though, if you can get past your preconceptions. I sympathise - I know I am not the only one on here who fed the first raw chicken bone with huge misgivings, and followed my dog around for 24 hours afterwards, but I have yet to find a single verified case of a dog suffering injury from raw bones other than the large animal weight bearing bones. But if you really cannot bring yourself to use them, a good raw/home cooked diet will still be better than most processed out there, I am sure.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i wonder if my kitchen aid grinder attachment would be strong enough to grind poultry bones.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If you have a pressure cooker you can cook chicken bones down to a mush fairly easily. They do eventually disintegrate in a slow cooker, but it takes a very long time.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

question:
we roast chicken fairly often. at least once a week. we then simmer the bones to make stock for cooking. would it be doable to take those bones, slow cook them to a mush? or should it be only fresh meat bones?


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

My poodles all get home cooked meals. I like having control over the quality of the food they eat much as I monitor what I eat. I buy organic produce and meats whenever possible, including products from the farmer's markets. The two MPOOS I raised from puppies just turned 9 and 10 and are in excellent health so I highly recommend it. I feed mostly cooked meats with some rare red meats, raw or cooked organ meats and cooked / pulverized vegetables. 

Egg shells are great sources of calcium (grind them up) or you can try a supplement if you don't want to feed mackerel or RMBs. I use this brand (Animal Essentials Seaweed Calcium):
Animal Essentials - Premium quality supplements for dogs and cats

I rotate proteins (organic chicken, turkey, eggs, white fish, cooked salmon, buffalo beef, etc.) and feed a mixture of cooked veggies that I run through the food processor (broccoli and/or green beans, peas, legumes, baked apple/blueberries, sweet potato, pumpkin, banana, etc.). They get organ meats 2-3 times per week, yogurt or kefir on most meals, cheese, cottage cheese, and daily supplements (EFAs/fish oil, vit/min, calcium, digestive enzymes, etc.). 

I rarely feed grains and only do so if Merlin has colitis issues and then it's cooked brown rice that I run through the food processor or quinoa. 

I hope that helps! 



> Posted by *Faerie*:
> question:
> we roast chicken fairly often. at least once a week. we then simmer the bones to make stock for cooking. would it be doable to take those bones, slow cook them to a mush? or should it be only fresh meat bones?


I can't answer your question but Merrick has two canned foods that contain bones, one of which is Wingalings (the other has chicken thigh I think). Their process sounds similar to what you're proposing. From their website:


> A NOTE FROM THE CHEF: please read before feeding. Our slow cooked whole chicken wings offer marinated tender chicken cooked on a softened bone. THIS SPECIAL COOKING PROCESS MAKES THE BONE MUSHY AND SAFE FOR YOUR DOG TO ENJOY. Feel free to serve whole or to break apart the chicken and soft bones for ease of pet consumption.


http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=15&s=20291


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You can certainly try cooking the chicken carcass to a mush - especially if you don't add salt when roasting the chicken. I have only done it with bones from poached chicken quarters, so I don't know if it would work. Test by squeezing each bone between your fingers - it should disintegrate with no sharp shards. By the time you have checked a whole batch, carefully removing any hard or doubtful bits, you may, like me, come around to raw chicken wings as infinitely quicker and easier!


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I understand how you feel about the bones, but I did it. Carley loves them and not a single problem so far. I to am getting away from the kibble and going toward a raw diet. Carley is a great eater and loves all her meals. I used to have to clean her eyes everyday and already her eye buggers are gone her teeth are whiter, even my mom noticed that change. My mom has a Boston that does not eat well, low weight ect. She has put him on an all raw diet and he is doing great now! So I think it is the best we can do for our fur babies. We need to put all the dogfood companies out of business...lol


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

since i've started supplementing the dogs food w/ homemade yogurt, eggs, some homemade stock etc, Temperance is so excited about her meals! 

yogurt is easy to make. i don't make fat free as i don't want my milk overly processed. i buy whole organic milk and make it with it. I keep reading about fat free yogurt for the dogs, but i'm not going to do that. 

I plan on shopping for food today so I'll pick up some items to start adding to their feed.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

I was pointed to a dealer in the region of raw meats for pets that include different meat grinds w/ bones and mixed ground offal w/ some green tripe. I'm excited about this! So i've got an email and call into there to see about getting some soon! like i want to fill my chest freezer. 

until then i've been feeding them a blend of ground turkey, pulverized egg shell, homemade yogurt, beef liver, a bit of blended/pulverized veggies, a bit of leftover grains (brown rice or oatmeal based on what my kids had LOL) and egg mixed in with wellness kibble since i've got some here and until i get my supplements figured out. 

the cost will be the same as feeding a high quality kibble or even a bit less.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i'm picking up my order of 150# of preground raw today. I'm paying less than $1.50 a pound.

I made the healthy powder that is listed in pitcairn's book. seelie doesn't like it and won't eat if it's on his food.. it's nutritional yeast, soy lecithin, and kelp powder. So ideas what I can give him? 

the other dogs are fine with it.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

faerie said:


> i'm picking up my order of 150# of preground raw today. I'm paying less than $1.50 a pound.
> 
> I made the healthy powder that is listed in pitcairn's book. seelie doesn't like it and won't eat if it's on his food.. it's nutritional yeast, soy lecithin, and kelp powder. So ideas what I can give him?
> 
> the other dogs are fine with it.



This is so exciting, Faerie! You are doing one of the single best things you can for your dogs!!!  

Under $1.50/lb for premade, do they exist in my area?! JEALOUS!

As far as nutritional supplements that you could try with him, I never used to supplement but recently I do. I switch it up a bit. I used Berte's Blend (I think?) for a while and now I use Nzymes ULTIMATE Blend. I also add ACV, Probiotics and fish oil. I mix it up so it's inside the ground food and they can't avoid it if they eat at all.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If the mix includes some offal - especially liver - and green tripe, he really should not need any supplements except perhaps fish oils (or a meal of oily fish one or twice a week - sardines if canned, rather than tuna - there is some difference in the processing that destroys the omega 3 in canned tuna).


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

fjm said:


> If the mix includes some offal - especially liver - and green tripe, he really should not need any supplements except perhaps fish oils (or a meal of oily fish one or twice a week - sardines if canned, rather than tuna - there is some difference in the processing that destroys the omega 3 in canned tuna).


i'm getting 30# of the blend which is beef/green tripe/beef heart/beef liver.
so i was thinking of adding in some of that, but not sure the proportion and how often to add ... daily or every other day or???

and i've been doing sardines and/or canned mackerel every few days.

i am also thinking if i'm giving them some kibble that will help offset any nutrients too if he's not loving the powder. I do give a bit of yogurt here and there and some eggs ... and i make my own yogurt, so it's fresh, full of good bacterias and organic.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Just be sure to very slowly introduce any offal blends or new proteins very slowly to prevent loose stool. I believe in a very conservative approach to introducing raw meat because rushing things and resulting loose stool (cannon butt!!) seems to be one of the biggest reasons people abandon a raw diet.

Very soon you will be an expert on raw feeding. Every dog is different and every raw feeder quickly becomes the expert for their own dog'


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So true, CM - I have to watch the differences between just the two dogs I have. Poppy easily gets bunged up, Sophy easily gets the squits! It is surprising how quickly it becomes second nature to make the small adjustments that keep them both just right.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i've been feeding beef liver and heart. i've not given them any tripe though.

the only new raw meats they haven't had that i'm picking up is venison and chicken w/bone. 

they've eaten turkey and beef liver and heart (no ground beef tho) and some chicken, but not a lot, but their kibble is chicken based.


----------



## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

faerie said:


> we eat a lot of eggs so egg shells are going to be dried and ground plus fresh eggs cooked
> 
> 
> i'm going to pick up canned mackerel and canned salmon.
> ...


Hi there. They will LOVE the new menu. 

Egg shells do not provide the balanced calcium (too much) to Phosphorus (too little) ratio a dog needs for healthy bone growth/ strength. Get powdered bone meal from Now, Solgar, Swiss or Kal.

Make sure that your salmon & SARDINES (better than Mackerel) are canned in water & wild caught- NO FARMED ATLANTIC ickiness.

Dogs don't produce amalyse which breaks down cellulose (veggies) so yes, they must be pulverised. VMixs rock the planet!!!

Since you're not opposed to buying books for research, may I suggest a GREAT book for cat & dogs, raw & cooked recipes? The Whole Dog Journal reviewed it as one of the best out there on home made diets. It explains things simply & allows one to tailor to specific needs

Whole Dog Journal - A Review of the Best Books on Home-Prepared Dog Food Diets on the Market - Web Only Article

_The winners are:

*1. Dr. Becker’s Real Food for Healthy Dogs & Cats is the perfect book for those who want simple, clear recipes that meet NRC and AAFCO requirements for both puppies and adult dogs. I loved the 2009 edition that I originally read, but I’ve also had a chance to preview the 3rd edition and it’s even better. The basic recipes are the same, but the new edition provides many more details, including nutritional analyses of all recipes. The authors still recommend feeding all of the foods in their original recipes, but the new edition offers options for omitting certain foods, telling you what additional supplements need to be provided in those cases.
*
2. For those who really want to understand the whys and wherefores of homemade diets, Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet is ideal. Author Steve Brown delves into the ancestral diet of the dog and compares it to the latest NRC guidelines. Brown is the creator of Steve’s Real Food for Dogs (he no longer owns the company) and See Spot Live Longer Homemade Dinner Mixes. Step by step, he investigates the nutrients supplied by different foods, and how to go about combining those foods to achieve balanced meals that meet NRC guidelines without the use of synthetic supplements (he adds vitamin E and also includes bone meal in recipes that don’t include bone). Particular attention is paid to ensuring that fats are properly balanced, going beyond the ratio of omega-6 to omega-3.

3. Monica Segal’s book, K9 Kitchen, offers guidelines and sample recipes for diets based on raw meaty bones, cooked diets, and combinations of the two. Segal’s moderate approach encourages you to pick the style of feeding that you’re most comfortable with and that works for your dog. Sample weekly recipes for all three styles of feeding are included for dogs of various weights and activity levels._


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Ah - I think that might explain the differing advice on eggshells as a source of calcium! Eggshells are not balanced - but nor is boneless meat, which is very high in phosphorus and low in calcium. Thus the high calcium/low phosphorus of eggshell is a good supplement for the low calcium/high phosphorus meat. Bone meal is an alternative, but you need much more of it in proportion to the quantity of meat, because of the phosphorus the bone meal itself contains. 

Raw bone is easiest! And I suspect the wildly different percentages given for the amount of bone in the diet by different sources (10% to 50% or more) are down to how one defines bones. At the lower end (10%) is the recommended amount of actual bone in the diet. At the higher end (40%, 50%, 60%) is the proportion of the diet made up of raw, very meaty bones, which may be less than 25% actual bone. As one of the few issues people have reported with a raw diet is impaction due to excessive amounts of bone, it is possible that the proportion of bone has been scaled down from those recommended in the earliest books.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

well, hello. since i'm going to be feeding ground w/bone, i felt i wouldn't need to supplement with the eggshell powder or sardines/mackerel/salmon unless i was feeding meat with NO bone (ground beef i'm getting has no bone added). 

btw, i don't do any farm salmon. only wild caught. i'm real cautious about any fish in my family's life anyway because so much comes from china.


----------



## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

faerie said:


> since i'm going to be feeding ground w/bone, i felt i wouldn't need to supplement with the eggshell powder or sardines/mackerel/salmon unless i was feeding meat with NO bone (ground beef i'm getting has no bone added).
> 
> btw, i don't do any farm salmon. only wild caught. i'm real cautious about any fish in my family's life anyway because so much comes from china.


Great! Its astounding how disconnected many people have become from the food that goes into their own bodies & what goes into making it. Unless you're feeding a multivitamin supplement, Sardines, salmon & eggs all play a key role in her diet plan.

Here's the chart if curious. Honestly though, i'm doing the book a disservice by piecemeal-ing it
out of whole context. Worth a read IMHO.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

faerie said:


> well, hello. since i'm going to be feeding ground w/bone, i felt i wouldn't need to supplement with the eggshell powder or sardines/mackerel/salmon unless i was feeding meat with NO bone (ground beef i'm getting has no bone added).


You know what you're doing. This is correct.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My all time favorite book for both raw and home cooked diets is Lew Olson's "Raw and Natural Nutrition"


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

So nice to see all the raw goodness. We've been doing it for about 15 years so it's pretty much just "the way it is" for us, no stress. We feed no veggies or grains whatsoever. (When we first started raw we did the ground veggie / ground beef thing, but over time dropped that.) Well, okay, if we're eating carrots sometimes we'll toss one to a waiting mouth! We do keep a bag of a good kibble on hand "just in case," but we only use it rarely, as a convenience food. We regularly feed tripe and ground organs, as well as sardines pretty regularly. Sounds like you guys all are doing the right things!

--Q


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I admire you guys who do the homecooked diets! It sounds like a lot of work to me, but I'm sure once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature. I just do prey model raw (no veggies or grain) and I've been happy with it. I've gotten pretty good at eyeballing things too. I barely have time to cook for myself so can't imagine cooking for a dog (or more than one). I gotta say, some of the homecooked meals sound delicious!


----------



## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> I admire you guys who do the homecooked diets! It sounds like a lot of work to me, but I'm sure once you get the hang of it, it becomes second nature. I just do prey model raw (no veggies or grain) and I've been happy with it. I've gotten pretty good at eyeballing things too. I barely have time to cook for myself so can't imagine cooking for a dog (or more than one). I gotta say, some of the homecooked meals sound delicious!


Rango says you're all welcome to come have dinner. :act-up:


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Kloliver said:


> Great! Its astounding how disconnected many people have become from the food that goes into their own bodies & what goes into making it.


*snicker*

anyone who is my friend on facebook and/or reads my blog knows I'm a huge foodie and locavore. 

I've just held off on feeding raw to my dogs because of my strongly 40 year old ingrained fear of bones and perforation. However, I've always fed my dogs the best kibble I could afford. (and the cat too ... who is so helping me serve the dogs by getting her share of meat while I'm filling up the dogs bowls.

I want what's best for my furbabies, just like I do my human children. So, while I'm not opting (at this time and maybe never) to feed RMBs, I can offer them ground meats w/ bone and offal. 

This weekend I'm actually going to begin focusing on offering more meat and less kibble. Which means I am going to bring in a scale and do some weighing out foods for each dog. After a while I'll be able to visually portion it out properly (i'm good at doing that after 10 years of weighing out the ingredients I use in my soap making business)

I feel a sense of accomplishment here


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i think it's interesting i was thinking about cooking for my dogs. 

I've now shifted into feeding my dogs raw w/ supplemental kibble and occasional veggies/grains based on what we have going on here in the house.

it's a work in progress and i thank everyone who has helped me in this transition.


----------

