# I fell in love with a .... *gasp*



## Fluffyspoos

WOW! He was DIRTY! Are you sure he's a doodle? He looks quite poodley to me, maybe a poodle with a full tail? Great job cleaning him up!


----------



## tortoise

Fluffyspoos said:


> WOW! He was DIRTY! Are you sure he's a doodle? He looks quite poodley to me, maybe a poodle with a full tail? Great job cleaning him up!


That's what I asked the shelter, lol. He has gorgous coat for scissoring too.

He is a "5th generation" goldendoodle, purchase from a breeder. Don't know what breeder though.


----------



## brownlikewoah

nice grooming job, he is handsome


----------



## georgiapeach

Wow - what a transformation! You did a wonderful job on this boy! I see the mix, but he's definitely more on the poodle side!


----------



## CT Girl

That is great that you found a dog you can bond with. What a transformation you made with him by your grooming. Are you keeping him?


----------



## Carley's Mom

How cute is that! What's going to happen now. I know he will make someone a great dog, is that someone you? lol


----------



## BorderKelpie

You did a fantastic job with his grooming - he's beautiful!


----------



## petitpie

He looks like a different dog and so much happier.


----------



## MamaTiff

Tortoise, do you think you could work on him as far as his issues with children? It's a shame to have a bond like that and not be able to adopt him.


----------



## ChantersMom

He looks so happy now that he's been groomed!


----------



## CT Girl

MamaTiff said:


> Tortoise, do you think you could work on him as far as his issues with children? It's a shame to have a bond like that and not be able to adopt him.


I saw no mention of him having problems with children. Have you met the dog?


----------



## tortoise

CT Girl said:


> I saw no mention of him having problems with children. Have you met the dog?


He has issues with children. I posted about him on a FB group and was very open about it there. He finds children unpredictable. His reaction is not visible, but if I touch him I can feel his heart racing. He reacts when a child touches him - especially unexpectedly. He will show teeth and put his teeth on skin. He has not broken skin and his manner is more communicative than aggressive. However, it is still unsafe and unacceptable. *I* could work with it but I doubt he will be placed in a home with children.

He also has some issues with leadership, but not severe. For example, I was feeling unwell and wanted him to lay with me. After a few minutes he wanted to wiggle away. I touched him on the shoulder to keep him close and he put his mouth on my hand and held on to it. He did not bite down, but again that doesn't mean it is safe or acceptable. I corrected him as if he was a puppy and kept him in a cuddly down stay for about an hour.

Other than those things which are little to me, but huge for most people, he is an awesome dog. Travels great, obedient, well-trained. Dog social, playful, loves his crate. No resource or food guarding issues. 

I think he needs to develop trust and learn alternate methods of communicating besides his teeth. I suspect he was harshly corrected for growling when he was young since that can result in this type of behavior. I also suspect the child he lived with interacted inappropriately or painfully with him.

I wish my puppy's training was a little bit further along. He is very good in public, but has some annoying habits at home. I've been doing well lately, but I am afraid to commit and risk overextending myself. 

For now I will have to be satisfied with visiting him often at the shelter. he has already been there for 5 months.


----------



## tortoise

Poodle, Golden and Goldendoodle

IMG_9363 by tortoise11, on Flickr


IMG_9368 by tortoise11, on Flickr


IMG_9396 by tortoise11, on Flickr


IMG_9378 by tortoise11, on Flickr


IMG_9379 by tortoise11, on Flickr


IMG_9381 by tortoise11, on Flickr


----------



## Travis

Adorable. He looks just like my friend's cockapoo...they could be twins!


----------



## Carley's Mom

One of my very first dogs was a cockapoo that looked very much like that. He came to us as a "lost dog". He was very afraid of me and my 2 sisters. He acted like this dog , but soon he learned to trust us and loved us as much as we loved him. There is hope for this dog. I can't believe he has been waiting for his forever home for so long. I bet sporting this new "do" that he will get a home in the next few days.

P.S. We also got a dog from the pound for my grown daughter a few years ago that was so aggressive that it was lableled not for adoption... at the time we had no kids in the family and I had already got the dog out of the cage and had it on my lap before seeing the sign, they let us take it. She is a wonderful dog , very loving to everyone.


----------



## cavon

Tortoise, in a thread a while ago, unless I misunderstood your post, you mentioned that you had issues with forming attachments, even to Jet. It seems; however, that this pup has helped you with that particular issue. You seem to be quite enamoured with him and have formed quite a bond with him, while Jet is still not progressing at the rate you would like to see and this is annoying you.

Do you think it is possible that Jet is not the right dog to be your service animal, that perhaps you would be better suited with this dog that you have so obviously bonded with?


----------



## tokipoke

What a nice makeover! I love the haircut you gave him. He looks like a big bichon and very cuddly. Maybe tortoise sees something in this dog - lots of potential. Kind of like the rough-n-tumble heart throb you want to marry and change into a different man (doodle), versus some guy born into privilege, living with his parents (poodle). Maybe that is a strange analogy and I'm just reading too much into it lol. I am sure tortoise will explain.


----------



## tortoise

cavon said:


> Tortoise, in a thread a while ago, unless I misunderstood your post, you mentioned that you had issues with forming attachments, even to Jet. It seems; however, that this pup has helped you with that particular issue. You seem to be quite enamoured with him and have formed quite a bond with him, while Jet is still not progressing at the rate you would like to see and this is annoying you.
> 
> Do you think it is possible that Jet is not the right dog to be your service animal, that perhaps you would be better suited with this dog that you have so obviously bonded with?


Finn couldn't replace Jet. I don't "love" Jet but he definitely keeps me safe. He's made a lot of prgoress since that thread - mostly because I've been doing better and was able to get more training done. He is more effective than my previous service dog. We have some little things at home - more annoyances for my fiance. He was "testing" the underground fence and wandering for a while - seems to have been resolved for a month or so. He had a crate accident which was not his fault (!!!!), but it doesn't make my iance like him more. My fiance is deeply attached to his dog and no dog dead, living, or future will ever live up to it.  He also hates puppy behavior and training (houstraining, chewing).

Feeling not ready to take on another dog is more about my fiance's perception of Jet's behavior and training. And knowing that at times he takes care of the dogs so it's more for him. And because with having chronic illness even though I can care for 2 dogs and their grooming NOW, I worry about if/when I will struggle. And of course, if I had him would it improve my health even more?

Like today... today sucks. I traveled last weekend, and we are traveling next weekend. To not affect my health I need 3 weeks to plan/prepare and 1 week to recover. So you can see this is very stressful. Going to visit Finn at the shelter was my motivation to get up this morning. But without Jet's help the anxiety would have been overwhelming and prevented me from being able to go.

Jet makes me safe, Finn makes me happy. It is so awesome to have both at the same time.


----------



## tortoise

tokipoke said:


> What a nice makeover! I love the haircut you gave him. He looks like a big bichon and very cuddly. Maybe tortoise sees something in this dog - lots of potential. Kind of like the rough-n-tumble heart throb you want to marry and change into a different man (doodle), versus some guy born into privilege, living with his parents (poodle). Maybe that is a strange analogy and I'm just reading too much into it lol. I am sure tortoise will explain.


:lol: That is so funny! 

I see potential to improve with kids - or maybe only one kid. But I like him just how he is and can easily keep my son safe with Finn. I have experience with dogs with issues, my son is unnaturally well-behaved, and Finn has had very, very good obedience training at the shelter.

It's so simple (and selfish): He makes me feel happy. His coat is awesome for scissoring and makes my skills look good. I could have 2 grooming competition dogs.


----------



## cavon

Tort, you speak of Jet's annoying habits in this thread and again you say that you don't love him. You state that Jet makes you safe and Finn the shelter dog makes you happy. 

Have you given any thought to what effect it will have on you should Finn be adopted? It seems that your adopting him in your current situation is not a likely possibility, so do you think that it is wise to form such a strong attachment to this animal?

Furthermore, you have a beautiful little poodle who, by all accounts, tries his best to do your bidding, even at his young age and yet you have not bonded to him other than as a coping mechanism. Is this a fair life for this creature? 

Is it possible that your fiance's issues are just with you having a "poodle"? Some men just can't get past the stereotype, vet or not. Do you think that he might have better feelings towards a rescue dog like Finn?


----------



## tortoise

Jet is a happy little dog and all his needs are met. You have never met us, so perhaps you should refrain from obsessing about Jet being some sad suffering puppy.


----------



## cavon

Obsessing??? two posts??? uh okay.

I will; however, refrain from asking any more questions that have arisen from your own conversation.

Good Luck


----------



## liljaker

I was also confused based on earlier posts, too. Glad Tortoise cleared it up. Thanks.


----------



## Chagall's mom

I always think it's wonderful when a shelter dog receives loving attention. And I find it particularly heartwarming that stories about Finn, a "fifth generation doodle," have been so well received here. Poodle Forum has not always been so receptive to stories about doodles or their devotees. Of course Finn is a dog in need, and I wish him a loving forever home in a family where he is wanted and cherished and cared for by all its members. It's my POV that all dogs deserve to be loved and well looked after. It's also my opinion that poodles are the best breed on earth. I cannot imagine, given a choice between a doodle or a poodle, favoring or preferring the former to the latter. But everyone has a right to feel the way they do. It occurs to me it might be helpful to post word of Finn on a doodle forum, it might spark some interest in finding him a permanent home.:clover:


----------



## BorderKelpie

I don't understand why people are so offended by Tortoise and Jet. From the videos I've seen, Jet looks well maintained and content. He is not neglected or abused in any way whatsoever. Not every person bonds on a soul mate level with every dog. That does not mean the dog or person is miserable at all. I, myself, have had dogs that did not dig themselves completely into my very heart and soul, but they were and are taken care of and loved in my own way. Every one of them are respected as a living, feeling being. 

Maybe Tortoise can just relate to Finn on a different level because of what she suffers with on a daily basis. There's a commonality there. 

I have seen 'beloved pets' that are stuck alone in backyards, or overfed to make up for emotional connections, or spoiled and miserable - but their owners 'can't live without them.' 
Jet is cared for, has a job to do, a purpose in life, guardians that protect and provide for him. That's more than a lot of people have. I could see being offended if he were chained up outside and matted and starving, but he's not. He's needed and valuable. I am sure he knows that.


----------



## Chagall's mom

"'Offended?" That's not what I see. I see people on a Poodle Forum who are passionate about the breed and here for that reason. To me it's understandable our keenest interest, loyalty and reverence_ is for the poodle_ _breed_. Lots of us have other breeds of dogs in addition to poodles, and no one is dissing them. This board and its membership is "poodle-centric." _That's why I'm here, I'm a poodle lover!_ I'm sure it's the same over on the doodle board. Bit of a stretch here, but if a meat eater posted about enjoying meat more than vegetables on a vegetarian forum, that too would likely raise a few eyebrows.:dog:


----------



## Carley's Mom

I don't want to judge anyone, but it makes me sad to see cute little Jet and then to hear tort say more than once, that she does not love him. I also believe that she takes great care of him, I think he has a good life , better than alot of dogs, but I would love to read that he has made it into her heart and is loved as much as I love my girl.

I think tort has alot to offer this forum and I am glad she is here, I don't agree with everything , but I do agree with alot.

I do not think that C. said anything wrong, if you bond with one dog more than another and you can't have both, maybe keep the one that you bond to more easily. What is wrong with that?


----------



## BorderKelpie

I see your point, Carley's Mom and I agree in most cases, but Jet is a service dog, Tort needs him. If Finn was stable and safe, I could understand her 'swapping' dogs. But, if there's any chance that Finn may be a problem with (or be too stressed by) children, it may not be an option for her. Then she will have to make the possibly heartbreaking choice out of need. 
I wish for Tort's sake that she and Jet could find that heart bond, too. But sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Maybe it wll happen once Jet learns what all he needs to do and they can start building that once in a lifetime bond. (that I do hope happens more than once - for all of us). He's young, he has a big job to learn, there's a lot of pressure to get things right. Maybe with some time, everything will just 'click.' I pray it does. 
There's not a lot of pressure with Finn, He's a companion, not a working partner. Once that partnership gets sorted out with Jet, I think people will be surprised at the bond that will develop over time. Something far deeper and stronger than just friendship. That's what happened to me with my first working dog. She wasn't a 'pet' she was to perform a job. She became my heart dog, it took a few years, but I still miss her deeply 10 years later. I now compare all my canine relationships on the one she and I had. There's no comparison. It grew over 14 years of living and working together. Not a quick infatuation that was over before love could truly begin. 

It'll get there, give it time.


----------



## roulette

Different dogs have different jobs, and most poodles I know of seem to take great pride in pleasing their owner. I know a man, a disabled Vietnam vet.. both in a wheelchair and suffering from severe anxiety and PTSD.. who has a Standard Poodle as a service dog. The dog's job is to keep people out of his personal space, by standing between his owner and strangers. The man is not comfortable in public in crowds or task situations (grocery, rolling down the street, etc) when folks invade his personal space.. it causes him severe anxiety to be touched or approached too intimately. So.. the dog serves as a "force field" to keep him comfortable and allow him to get out in the world and be independent. Also, due to his disability, the man does not show affection, to anyone, people OR his dog. While at first I felt sorry for his service dog, as he is rarely spoken to kindly or loved on (like we fondle our dogs) he is NEEDED, and he takes great pride in doing his job well, and keeping his master safe. I realized that their bond is infinite and deep..just different.


----------



## BorderKelpie

roulette said:


> Different dogs have different jobs, and most poodles I know of seem to take great pride in pleasing their owner. I know a man, a disabled Vietnam vet.. both in a wheelchair and suffering from severe anxiety and PTSD.. who has a Standard Poodle as a service dog. The dog's job is to keep people out of his personal space, by standing between his owner and strangers. The man is not comfortable in public in crowds or task situations (grocery, rolling down the street, etc) when folks invade his personal space.. it causes him severe anxiety to be touched or approached too intimately. So.. the dog serves as a "force field" to keep him comfortable and allow him to get out in the world and be independent. Also, due to his disability, the man does not show affection, to anyone, people OR his dog. While at first I felt sorry for his service dog, as he is rarely spoken to kindly or loved on (like we fondle our dogs) he is NEEDED, and he takes great pride in doing his job well, and keeping his master safe. I realized that their bond is infinite and deep..just different.


THIS! Yes! Thank you!


----------



## My babies

I'm new to the forum. When I first read tort's post about not loving Jet I was so upset that I almost got teary. I thought to myself how can you not love your dog. But after reading her other posts and training videos I really think she loves him but probably don't realize it yet. I think she really takes good care of him and he is getting the love and attention that he needs.


----------



## cavon

BorderKelpie said:


> Jet is cared for, has a job to do, a purpose in life, guardians that protect and provide for him. That's more than a lot of people have.


Just wondering BK, would you consider using an e-collar on a four month old puppy to stop him from whining so that the fiance/vet won't get mad protecting or providing for him?


----------



## tortoise

cavon said:


> Just wondering BK, would you consider using an e-collar on a four month old puppy to stop him from whining so that the fiance/vet won't get mad protecting or providing for him?


Cavon, you need a lesson in electric collars. You clearly don't understand how sophisticated the modern collars are. Mine has levels 1 - 129.

I have tested it with myself, my fiance, my son (4 at the time) my neighbor and her kids (6 and 13 at the time) and my neighbor's daughter's friend (also 13). And anyone else who is curious.

I can't feel anything - literally nothing on my forearm, fingertips, or neck until about level 13. At that level it's not even uncomfortable, just surprising. I think I felt it lowest of the other people who tried it.

Some of the most elite and respected working dog trainers are beginning to use the modern e-collars ALING WITH CLICKER TRAINING for obedience beginning at 3 - 4 months old. And these people use them correctly at very low levels of stimulation, have great relationships with their dogs, confident dogs that love training and impressive obedience and working results.

E-collar is not a dirty word. They are only as bad as the person who uses it. Yes, uneducated and uncaring person can cause physical pain and mental stress with one - but that is the same as _any _training device or technique. Someone can beat the crap out of a dog's neck with a flat nylon buckle collar, yet those are socially acceptable. People do this all the time - to the point of permanent damage to the dog's trachea - but this is socially acceptable.

But using a technologically advanced, sensitive, and safe training tool is somehow barbaric.

Only because you don't know how to use one right and don't understand how they can be used to relieve a dog's stress during training. (They are wonderful for working with dogs who have been physically abused!)

Sometimes you need to say "I don't have enough information to form an opinion about that."


----------



## Countryboy

cavon said:


> Just wondering BK, would you consider using an e-collar on a four month old puppy to stop him from whining so that the fiance/vet won't get mad protecting or providing for him?


IMO, this seems less like a valid question and more like an another one of your backhanded challenges. An ad hominem attack on Tortise and her training methods.

Despite efforts by other members to speak to the issue of the Doodle and our reactions to caring for different dogs in different ways, u seem to keep wanting to slew the subject of the thread to some imaginary indifference or perceived *in your mind* cruelty by the OP.

There is no cruelty here . . no matter how much u try to create.


----------



## cavon

tortoise said:


> Cavon, you need a lesson in electric collars. You clearly don't understand how sophisticated the modern collars are.
> 
> Some of the most elite and respected working dog trainers are beginning to use the modern e-collars ALING WITH CLICKER TRAINING for obedience beginning at 3 - 4 months old. And these people use them correctly at very low levels of stimulation, have great relationships with their dogs, confident dogs that love training and impressive obedience and working results.
> 
> Only because you don't know how to use one right and don't understand how they can be used to relieve a dog's stress during training. (They are wonderful for working with dogs who have been physically abused!)
> 
> Sometimes you need to say "I don't have enough information to form an opinion about that."



Tortoise, you have absolutely no insight into what I do or don't know, so please do not assume that you do. 

In your response, you have provided some information as fact; however, you have not provided any substantiation of this information so that the membership can read it and form their own opinions. This appears to be a recurring theme in your posts.

Once again, I will say that I personally prefer to take information, guidance and/or instruction from individuals who are educated, certified and accomplished in any area that interests me. 

Finally, I can assure you that I have been provided with more than enough information to form an opinion, and I am entitled to do so.


----------



## BorderKelpie

Just for fun, Cavon, as a matter of fact I own two e-collars. I also adore my dogs, sleep with them, refuse to go on vacations and leave them in someone else's care, etc, etc. 

I have dogs that are so excited and happy to see those collars come out because they know that means we are going to go PLAY.

As far as a bark collar, I know a dog that would have been better off with one than be poisoned by seriously annoyed neighbors She died in agony.


----------



## tortoise

cavon said:


> Tortoise, you have absolutely no insight into what I do or don't know, so please do not assume that you do.
> 
> In your response, you have provided some information as fact; however, you have not provided any substantiation of this information so that the membership can read it and form their own opinions. This appears to be a recurring theme in your posts.
> 
> Once again, I will say that I personally prefer to take information, guidance and/or instruction from individuals who are educated, certified and accomplished in any area that interests me.
> 
> Finally, I can assure you that I have been provided with more than enough information to form an opinion, and I am entitled to do so.


What fact do you want to know? Exactly? 

Ecollars on puppies is taught at the Mike Ellis School of Dog Training and at his seminars. He is a highly respected, possibly the best, sport dog trainer in the USA. I have been to his seminars, have trained my dogs with him, have trained my dogs with the people he trains his own dogs with, and was mentored by another very highly respected trainer that he works with for training and developing their breeding programs. I was taught to use ecollars by the method in Leerburg's video, although it is worth noting that it was not until several years after the video that these people began introducing the ecollar to puppies at younger ages. I've had memberships (now expired) in multiple dog clubs for various sports and have held USDA license for animal performance. I've got a decade of training experience, plenty of time to learn many methods with an open mind and see how they affect dogs of various temperaments. I choose not to use many methods I've learned but benefit by understanding what I do not agree with and why. I choose not to be certified for reasons I have very clearly stated here in a different thread. I have not competed due to my disabilities. My dogs' accomplishments have always spoken for themselves. I have been featured in print and television and it went viral online (in a very good way, :lol: ) a few years ago.

So tell me all about your detailed experience and education with training and e-collars. You seem to have an expert opinion. What are your resources?


----------



## papoodles

*Not for me either..*

I can not imagine using ANY electronic training device on my 4 month old poodle puppy that would cause that little puppy any kind of discomfort..and for sure I would not use a trainer that advocated such techniques. Just my opinion..

That thought just makes me cringe..


----------



## tortoise

Just saw that Finn was adopted today. (Then again he's been adopted out twice before and returned each time within 3 days.) Hope he's got a good one and glad I got to take him on one last walk. Would be thrilled to see him for grooming someday too.


----------



## BorderKelpie

That's wonderful to hear, Tortoise! I hope this one works for him!

Thanks for letting us know. (I do hope you get to groom him again, too)


----------



## tokipoke

Maybe you can borrow him for competitions? That's great news! Hope it works out for him.


----------



## tortoise

papoodles said:


> I can not imagine using ANY electronic training device on my 4 month old poodle puppy that would cause that little puppy any kind of discomfort..and for sure I would not use a trainer that advocated such techniques. Just my opinion..
> 
> That thought just makes me cringe..


Right because all the _non-electric _things people do to puppies like yelling at them, dragging puppies around choking themselves on leashes, rubbing their nose in pee, throwing things at them to scare them out of bad behavior, and rolling them on their backs and pinning them to the ground are totally OK. 

*It's all good because they "love" their dogs. No problems there.* (note sarcasm) :angel:

The ONLY training tool - including the human voice - that can be adjusted to a level that is not uncomfortable and is perfectly consistent.... that is the tool that people chose to hate on. An ecollar stim doesn't communicate emotion, stress, or frustration. It has no body language to intimidate. It is perfectly clear when introduced correctly.

It has a legitimate place in dog training. 

I was undecided for years until I worked with a previously abused dog. He was an extremely high-drive dog and had been punished for enthusiasm. He was either bouncing off the walls or people or cowering - no inbetween. I exercised him to exhaustion at least twice a day with disc play to give him something fun to do and wear off energy. I tried to train him, but everything added to his stress and excitement. He didn't gain confidence until I introduced the electric collar. Because it was completely different from any restraint or correction he receied before, he was unafraid. He understood, and my house was calm. Not cowering. Just calm. It was an amazing transformation in the house - he saved his drive and enthusiasm for outdoors. An ecollar brought an abused dog to peace and confidence.

It is a legitimate tool.

Anything can be used badly. I've been around dog training and seen bad things. I've seen dogs with puncture wounds from prong collars fit wrongly. I've seen sores from bark collars left on too long. I've seen dogs need chiropractic care after strong leash corrections. I've seen angry rashes from flat collars. We've probably all seen photos of flat collars ingrown into a puppy's neck. I've seen dogs with collapsed tracheas from being dragged on a flat collar. I've seen sores from no-pull harnesses. I've seen dogs with bald faces and sores from Gentle Leaders.

But all of those tools can be, and are usually, used safely and effectively. *The tool is as good (or as bad) as the person who uses it.*


----------



## tortoise

tokipoke said:


> Maybe you can borrow him for competitions? That's great news! Hope it works out for him.


Borrowing him for a competition would be perfect. I would get to see him often without any added daily responsibility/stress.


----------



## Chagall's mom

papoodles said:


> I can not imagine using ANY electronic training device on my 4 month old poodle puppy that would cause that little puppy any kind of discomfort..and for sure I would not use a trainer that advocated such techniques. Just my opinion..
> 
> That thought just makes me cringe..


Your are perfectly entitled to your opinion. I happen to share it. What makes _me _cringe is tortoise's response to your post. That's_ my_ opinion. 

Also, in case you missed it, there's an old e-collar thread you might be interested in:
http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/17914-e-collar-question.html#post220433 

Bet your new spoo baby is keeping you busy and happy! Post current pictures of Pippa soon, please!


----------



## Carley's Mom

I think alot of people don't understand the e-collar. My husband used them with his English Setters and left it on such a low setting that really all it does is get the dogs attention. It is a way of touching your dog from a distances. He loved his dogs and they loved him, they were very excited to see that collar as it meant a big day in the woods would soon follow. He did not ever hurt them with it! It is a great training tool.


----------



## Ladywolfe

I always thought that the saying, "Agree to disagree" was totally riduculous....until now. I am a snuggler, cuddler, etc.; with my dogs. I totally love my current dogs, and every dog I have had in the past. I, also, have seen valuable postings by Tort with a lot of useful information. I have no doubt her service dog is well cared for. Will I ever understand not loving Jet? Well, of course not. Intellectually, I can understand. But, in my heart, no I cannot. That is my deficit; not Tort's. She, most likely, would not understand my feelings, either.
Ex: "Testing" an E-collar on a four-year-old child? (I would worry about the "testing" part of that)

I have, at times, been very upset for Jet. But, rationally, I think Tort knows that we just really do not so much have to "Agree to disagree", but try to understand that we simply cannot put ourselves in each others' shoes. 

Tortoise, If I have in the past (and, I know I have) put forth opinions and judgements here, please understand my own decifict..................my inability to put myself in your shoes or you to put yourself in mine. My opinions were coming from a different place than you are, and I am trying not to do that.

You should try to understand that there is a world of difference with an attachment disorder and try to take negative input with a grain of salt, and grant those who might dispense it the same understanding that you would ask for yourself. Simply, "Agree to disagree"---certainly no reason for anyone to get upset.

In the end, her dog is well cared for.


----------



## Chagall's mom

tortoise said:


> ...So tell me all about your detailed experience and education with training....


This speaks volumes to me as to what Cavon knows as an owner/handler/trainer:
CA,CAX,URO1,URO2,URO3 (HIT),Multi RBIS,Multi BIS,BISS,ALCH Bijou's Finnegan Avon CGN,CGC,CRNCL,AKC CA,CAA,AKC RN,RA,AKC CD,CKC RN,Herding Instinct Certified



Carley's Mom said:


> I think alot of people don't understand the e-collar. My husband used them with his English Setters and left it on such a low setting that really all it does is get the dogs attention. It is a way of touching your dog from a distances. He loved his dogs and they loved him, they were very excited to see that collar as it meant a big day in the woods would soon follow. He did not ever hurt them with it! It is a great training tool.


You of course are also perfectly entitled to your opinion. I was not disappointed to find there was no e-collar included in Chagall's puppy pack from the breeder. Had there been, I would have chosen not to use it. My concern is that people who are new dog owners, or who may be experiencing training issues with their dogs, not think, upon reading anecdotes such as yours, they can or should run out and buy an e-collar to resolve their issues. I just want to put that out there; no hollering, no foot stomping, no accusations or questions being hurled at you from me for your opinion. I am not here to lobby you, or other devoted e-collar users. And yes, yes, I realize we've heard it offered (rather loudly at times) that the user needs to be "properly trained." I'm in no way confident about that happening. To me, a "properly-trained e-collar user" is an oxymoron. 

One more thing...



Countryboy said:


> ... ad hominem....


Just wanted to use cb's big word as a head's up to all my Scrabble playing friends who one day may find a good use for it!:burnout:

Oh, and _one more_ "one more thing": I have a devil of a time using the "multiple quote" feature when replying to posts, so it took me _ages _to draft this. For that reason alone, I hope it's widely read!!

p.s.* So glad to hear Finn the doodle has been adopted!!*:clover:


----------



## Chagall's mom

:biggrin1:


tortoise said:


> Some of the most elite and respected working dog trainers are beginning to use the modern e-collars ...


Then again, some are certainly not!*








**You may need to double click on the video to view, I seldom upload things correctly!:biggrin1:*


----------



## roulette

Okay.. another perspective on the e-collar issue:

I bought some chickens from a guy who is an AVID duck hunter..after securing said chickens, he began to load his dogs (Labs) up for a trip to the Ohio River. I saw all his equipment and I asked him some questions about training with e-collars. He gave me this example. When his labs go for ducks in swift, deep current, their retrieve drive is SO high, that they will not give up on a bird that could lead them into dangerous water. When he sees that they need to let the duck go, as the current is too swift.. there is no way for them to hear him recall, as they are quite far out. The only way he has to call them back is with his e collar. They must be trained to respond to the collar's demand 100% for their own SAFETY. I can also see how this technique could transfer to a disabled person's safety as well (If seizing, and can't speak, in any medical emergency where surrounding emotions can run quite high and frantic, as a tool to aid 100% safety and control of both dog and owner). Just my two cents..again : )


----------



## BorderKelpie

I have seen horrible misuses of e collars and was therefore sooo against the idea with my dog. But after fighting with him for years, I finally gave in and bought a remote collar. Coulter is 8 years old now and I can finally let him off leash. I only use the page feature, which is a vibration. He will come and check in with me now (and wait for his treat) instead of looking for a dog to fight or ripping through a chain link fence to get my neighbor. He was a mature dog on death row when I got him. I know now why he was there. He is still my hardest dog to get through to. Spoken commands mean nothing to him. Whispered, yelled, running from him, bribing with treats, toys - nothing! I was at my wit's end as well. For some reason, talking to him while he's in that state of mind means nothing to him - just amps him up more, grabbing his collar *will* get you bitten. I've got proof of that. He's broken collars and harnesses in his fights to get whatever he's targeted. 

I'm not saying it's right for every dog, but it saved MY dog.

*edited to add: Funny thing is now, the cat chewed through the charger cord (should have used it on her! lol JK!) I still haven't replaced it. Coulter is respondng to just wearing the collar - it hasn't worked in months. Shhhh, don't tell him!)


----------



## fjm

Which I think takes me back to my question in the e-collar thread linked to above - if everyone who uses these collars claims that they are only ever used as a "paging" or "attention getting" mechanism - Tortoise says that her dog's collar goes from 0 - 129, and she mentions 13 as the level it begins to be felt - then WHY do people buy collars capable of delivering much higher, much more painful, charges? The principle behind these collars is to change behaviour by delivering a punishment that is sufficiently severe that the dog will remember it, and seek to avoid it in future. Be honest about it folks, and recognise and admit that you are using P+ methods for training - or buy a collar that cannot deliver more than a mild buzz, after first ensuring your dog does not experience that buzz as a significant aversive.


----------



## tortoise

fjm said:


> Which I think takes me back to my question in the e-collar thread linked to above - if everyone who uses these collars claims that they are only ever used as a "paging" or "attention getting" mechanism - Tortoise says that her dog's collar goes from 0 - 129, and she mentions 13 as the level it begins to be felt - then WHY do people buy collars capable of delivering much higher, much more painful, charges? The principle behind these collars is to change behaviour by delivering a punishment that is sufficiently severe that the dog will remember it, and seek to avoid it in future. Be honest about it folks, and recognise and admit that you are using P+ methods for training - or buy a collar that cannot deliver more than a mild buzz, after first ensuring your dog does not experience that buzz as a significant aversive.


There are low stim collars available but they are less reliable. I don't understand the electronics, but I trust the dealers I've had extended conversations with.

The reason for having high levels is because you need more than one level. The level you use most is your "working" stim or level.

This is the lowest level your dog is able to feel. You do it on the palm of your hand first to get an idea of how it feels. So Start at level 1 and press the "nick" button. Then level 2, and go up one level at a time until you feel something. THEN go back down until you stop feeling it. Up 1 level from where you stop feeling it is the working level.

After the dog is comfortable wearing the collar, wait until he is relaxed and hanging out and repeat the process. Watch carefully for a blink or ear twitch to indicate your dog has felt it. It should be close to the number you first felt on your hand.

So this it the low level that is used for everyday situations. But when a dog is keyed up or distracted, a higher level will be needed. It depends on the dog. Some dogs are very hard - have very high pain tolerance and are highly driven. (They're not poodles, and they're not pets either. Like police and military dogs.) These dogs may need higher levels when they are working.

I don't think I've used mine over 25. 25 is definitely uncomfortable on my skin, but not painful. 

Using it once at 25 has allowed my dog to come to work with me daily and hang outside in the kennel runs instead of being in a crate at home. It improved his quality of life very much. Like BK' dog, mine is "collar-wise". If he gets sassy, barky and possessive kennels I can just put a dummy collar on him for a day and he'll be good for weeks.

A dummy collar is an electric colar minus the working parts and plus weights to the dog can't feel the difference between the real and dummy collar.

I have a wide range collar because of the better electronics/consistency, and because I hope/plan to have a protection dog in the future.


----------



## tortoise

fjm said:


> Which I think takes me back to my question in the e-collar thread linked to above - if everyone who uses these collars claims that they are only ever used as a "paging" or "attention getting" mechanism - Tortoise says that her dog's collar goes from 0 - 129, and she mentions 13 as the level it begins to be felt - then WHY do people buy collars capable of delivering much higher, much more painful, charges? The principle behind these collars is to change behaviour by delivering a punishment that is sufficiently severe that the dog will remember it, and seek to avoid it in future. Be honest about it folks, and recognise and admit that you are using P+ methods for training - or buy a collar that cannot deliver more than a mild buzz, after first ensuring your dog does not experience that buzz as a significant aversive.


I accidentally used the pager button once. I had the remote turned in my pocket and hit the wrong button. Jet FLIPPED OUT. The vibration function was infinitely more distressing than his working stim level.

You need to know your dog. What is aversive for one dog may not affect another. Some dogs are very sensitive to disapproval - others are oblivious. Some are sensitive to pain - others seem to have a defective nervous system. :lol:

For my dog, using the pager button would be excessively unkind and the stress would impede training. If you switch between the working stim and vibration, the vibration is a stronger and more alarming sensation than the electric "shock".

For P+ training, I always aim to use the* "lowest effective dose"* of correction. As perceived by the dog, not me. Would you spank a child if a time-out worked? Of course not! Would you put a child in a time-out if saying "please stop" worked? No way. A P+ correction needs to be enough to discourage the behavior from being repeated, but there's no reason for more than that.

With the e-collar I can find exactly how much stimulation is needed to end the behavior and be confident that I don't ever use more than is necessary. 

I don't use an ecollar very often - I don't use it for obedience or service dog work because I have very good results with clicker training and have no need for more correction than a verbal "ot". But I appreciate having one and how it has given my puppy more freedoms and better quality of life by elimiating behavior problems when he believes I am not there to correct him.


----------



## papoodles

The problem that I see Tortoise, is that the people who scream at their dogs, and generally train them by intimidation- will also be the people who’d use the higher pain settings on a dog.In my view- these collars should not be available for use by any but a trained licensed professional who is dealing with police dogs or other Schutz hund type training. 
IMHO of course.


----------



## tortoise

papoodles said:


> The problem that I see Tortoise, is that the people who scream at their dogs, and generally train them by intimidation- will also be the people who’d use the higher pain settings on a dog.In my view- these collars should not be available for use by any but a trained licensed professional who is dealing with police dogs or other Schutz hund type training.
> IMHO of course.


Yes, I agree. If the low level collars (which are quite new in the good brands like Dogtra) were more reliable, I would like to see only low level collars available to the general public / in pet stores. A dog that needs higher levels is rare. Even among protection dogs it is not that common. 

But keep in mind that unreliable correction will do more damage than a painful correction. Inconsistent correction can cause neurosis which is irreversible. This was Pavlov's other line of research, lesser known and definitely would be considered unethical or cruel today.

People will always find a way to be cruel.  Commercially produced leather collars with sharp nails pointing inwards to dig into the dog's neck are still sold both USA and overseas! :argh:


----------



## tortoise

Chagall's mom said:


> :biggrin1:
> 
> Then again, some are certainly not!*
> It's Me or the Dog- Shock Collar - YouTube
> 
> 
> 
> 
> **You may need to double click on the video to view, I seldom upload things correctly!:biggrin1:*


:snort: 

I love how she uses surveillance systems to observe dogs. But that is where my compliments end.


----------



## Chagall's mom

tortoise said:


> :snort:
> 
> I love how she uses surveillance systems to observe dogs. But that is where my compliments end.


Here's a complimentary decongestantill: for your _:snort:._


----------



## fjm

I am not sure that the argument that because people will always find a way to be cruel, there is therefore no harm in selling - or advocating - a device which makes it very easy for them to be cruel, stands up. No doubt there are ways of using a dog whip that are relatively harmless, but it is no longer considered an essential piece of training equipment (not where I live, anyway, thank God!). E-collars are advertised and sold as magic bullet, instant training - the blurbs I have read make it a USP that dog owners no longer have to put in the hours/ days/ weeks of work with their dogs needed achieve the same results through "ordinary" training. This is the absolute antithesis of relationship-based training. Apply the right amount of pain (stim, nick, correction or whatever other euphemism is currently in use), and you too can have a well behaved dog - and all with an easy, press button remote control, just like the TV! For me, it is a straight forward ethical issue - this equipment is quite simply too dangerous to be made available to the general public. And probably too dangerous to be used except in very tightly controlled circumstances by behaviourists who fully understand the long term implications. 

"I have a wide range collar because of the better electronics/consistency, and because I hope/plan to have a protection dog in the future." Wow T - either that is a very adjustable collar, or you are planning on a very small protection dog!


----------



## Sawyersmomma

I don't understand why dog people seem to be so "it's my way or the highway"ish... 
I was taught to use choke chains at first for my dogs, then was told NEVER do ANYTHING negative, just reward the positive... I admit that makes no sense to me. Even a slight tug on the collar doesn't hurt, but it's reinforcing what they're doing isn't what you want. (I was told that's a big no-no)
I was also told about prong collars, bark collars, and nylon collars. 
All of the training methods seem to have positives and negatives. Why do people feel the need to convert everyone to their system? If what they're doing isn't bad, and used properly, all the methods can be helpful.
I'm not saying go out and abuse your dog now, but do we really have to push our beliefs on everyone else just to prove you're right and everyone's wrong?


----------



## BorderKelpie

I think it's interesting that there are so many opinions on dog training. It makes sense though, as there are so many different people doing the training and such a vast number of dogs getting trained (hopefully). Just goes to show that we all need to learn tolerance. 

Tortoise mentioned the page option upsets Jet. My dog, Coulter, seems to take some sort of comfort in it. I *think* by me paging him, he realizes that he doesn't have to do all the work (ie: guard us/himself from all the free range pet dogs, etc). It remeinds him that I am here to take care of him. 

Sawyer's Mama, I've heard all those same arguments. Use a choke collar -Don't use a choke collar, use a prong - don't use a prong. Reward good behavior, ignore bad behavior, ad nauseum. 

Years ago, I guess I could have tried to call my RR off mom's pheasants with a treat. I can see Rebel now. 'Hmm, treat or pheasant? Forget that! That pheasant is FLYING!!! See ya!' I can guarantee you, after Rebel caught one of her birds, she would have been more than happy to use an e-collar on its highest setting - on me! lol (he only managed to catch one. I am still amazed that a dog his size could catch a pheasant in flight like that!)


----------



## tortoise

Sawyersmomma said:


> All of the training methods seem to have positives and negatives.


Yup, I like pretty much all of them. The hard part is learning to pick the right method for the dogs, the task, the environment.

Don't discredit a tool because you don't know how it can be used. Learn about it! You'll either change your mind or be more confident in your previous opinion and be able to support or explain it better.


----------



## Minnie

tortoise said:


> I have tested it with myself, my fiance, *my son (4 at the time) my neighbor and her kids (6 and 13 at the time) and my neighbor's daughter's friend (also 13).* And anyone else who is curious.


This needs to be stopped now! On a 4 year old child OMG!!! 

Please anyone reading this DO NOT try an e-collar at any level on a child!!! You have no idea when this device on any setting might malfunction - this could potentially have caused incredibly harmful consequences to any of these children - adults know the risk - children should never ever be put at risk!


----------



## Countryboy

Minnie said:


> This needs to be stopped now! On a 4 year old child OMG!!!
> 
> Please anyone reading this DO NOT try an e-collar at any level on a child!!!


Yawwwwwwwwn......


----------



## pgr8dnlvr

I'm curious... What is the name brand of this collar? Is it small enough for a dog that's only 4 1/2 to 5 lbs? In an instance where the dog runs away barking in the night (in its own enclosed yard) due to shadows in the night, would one be able to use it stop the barking in a hurry or would this really not be a use of this type of tool? 

You mentioned earlier the e-collar can teach a bomb proof recall. How does that work?

Rebecca


----------



## Sawyersmomma

pgr8dnlvr said:


> You mentioned earlier the e-collar can teach a bomb proof recall. How does that work?
> 
> Rebecca


I'm not an expert, but someone I know told me she uses it for recall. If it's set to low, or vibrate, it can be used as a "reminder". So you call the dog. If it ignores you it gets a "reminder". But if he comes right away then he gets treats or something.
Start off with giving a longer period, perhaps an "uh-uh" if they ignore you, so they get a second chance before being reminded.


----------



## papoodles

Courtesy is as much a mark of a gentleman as courage. ~ Theodore Roosevelt


----------



## Countryboy

Mock horror in caps and exclamation marks deserves no respect. A shouted opinion is still just an opinion... and may elicit many different responses.

My ennui is just one of them.


----------



## Ladywolfe

> ]Will I ever understand not loving Jet? Well, of course not. Intellectually, I can understand. But, in my heart, no I cannot. That is my deficit; not Tort's. She, most likely, would not understand my feelings, either.
> Ex: "Testing" an E-collar on a four-year-old child? (I would worry about the "testing" part of that)


and



> This needs to be stopped now! On a 4 year old child OMG!!!
> 
> Please anyone reading this DO NOT try an e-collar at any level on a child!!! You have no idea when this device on any setting might malfunction - this could potentially have caused incredibly harmful consequences to any of these children - adults know the risk - children should never ever be put at risk!


I guess the rationale is something like; "if it didn't hurt my 4 yr old child, the dog should obviously be safe"? But, the dog cannot talk, and there is no way I would believe myself omnipotent enough, no matter how well-trained to believe myself to know what the dog feels.

Is it simply that the end justifies the means? Four year old child tolerated the test okay and the dog's behavior was controlled.

Again, Tort and I have to simply agree to disagree because my personality does not permit me to justify means I cannot prove as physically painless to my dog. Sure, we can read body language, etc. That is just not enough for me. And, again, it is the "test" part. What if it had hurt the child? The justification there is, "Well it made my child cry, so I would not use that level on my dog." Again, means to an end. 

This kind of logic, if it works at alll, is supposed to work both ways, and does not in this case....i.e., regarding a dog and a child, if it worked for the dog, then...(not even going to go there).

Not going to work for my life, but I do not have any difficulty with empathy.

Different people, different methods.


----------



## liljaker

If you put in the time and effort, I understand that a "bomb proof recall" can be achieved, too, without an e-collar. I would be interested to hear what a certified trainer would say about that statement. I think anyone would agree that an electric collar could probably achieve about anything......just depends on how high you set it. I am not trying to be funny here, but I fail to see how one can be pleased with teaching a dog a solid recall with an e-collar. I think to teach it without electric collars would be something to brag about.


----------



## Ladywolfe

Is there a difference between an e-collar "reminder" and an e-collar "warning" that it could become stronger? Isn't it just semantics? 

Oh, "Reminder" is kinder and applies to the new and improved, kinder and gentler electrical shock collar? Ooops, I mean, electric impulse stimulation.

No thanks here.


----------



## fjm

For me, it comes down to the best available scientific evidence. Is it possible to each a dog using aversives? Yes. Is it possible to teach exactly the same things, to the same level of proficiency without aversives? Yes. Which is least likely to have unwanted physical and/or psychological effect on the dog? Non-aversive. Which is least likely to have an unwanted psychological effect on me? Non-aversive. I am not perfect - there are times I lose patience with my animals, I raise my voice, I get irritated ... but to me there is something chilling about the calm, deliberate infliction of pain as a means to an end. If it were life or death, perhaps, but even then I would try non-aversive methods first, and less aversive methods second, third, and on until all possibilities were genuinely exhausted (and that means using methods properly, with professional guidance, not the odd half hour for a week or two).

We have had a number of cases on here of dogs whose owners hugely regretted following advice to use aversive training - Fozzie springs to mind. Unpicking the damage done took far, far longer than resolving the original issue more gently would have done. If a dog is barking at night time shadows, managing the issue by taking him out on a leash at night until a solid reward based recall is in place would be a great deal safer than risking him concluding that not only are there bears under every bush, but they can bite at a distance ... many dogs have decided that the yard is no longer a safe place after being shocked out there.


----------



## papoodles

Thank you,FJM for your profoundly lucid explanation of why e-collars are so abhorrent to some of us. I also believe that when you resort to the use of painful stimuli as a means to cement training goals, that you have basically caused the first fissure into the human- animal bond, as there’s very little quid pro quo left in the relationship. The training method then becomes the following:If I say jump, the poor dog is obligated to respond with ‘how high’,” because of fear, whereas I would prefer that my requests for compliance would be met with “if I do this, I’ll get a treat and ‘mom’ will be happy”.
To me, that philosophy is the better, more ethical one.
One should live by the Hippocratic oath, which is applicable here too: First, do no harm.


----------



## Chagall's mom

Sawyersmomma said:


> I don't understand why dog people seem to be so "it's my way or the highway"ish...
> I was taught to use choke chains at first for my dogs, then was told NEVER do ANYTHING negative, just reward the positive... I admit that makes no sense to me. Even a slight tug on the collar doesn't hurt, but it's reinforcing what they're doing isn't what you want. (I was told that's a big no-no)
> I was also told about prong collars, bark collars, and nylon collars.
> All of the training methods seem to have positives and negatives. Why do people feel the need to convert everyone to their system? If *what they're* *doing isn't bad*, and *used properly*, all the methods can be helpful.
> I'm not saying go out and abuse your dog now, but do we really have to push our beliefs on everyone else just to prove you're right and everyone's wrong?



While people may not always agree, it's through civil discourse that we often learn and grow as both dog trainers and dog owners. I think it's worthwhile and legitimate when members challenge what they may deem irresponsible, non-productive or dangerous training advice. I don't happen to follow, or accept, your thinking "what they're doing isn't_ bad_," who exactly is defining "bad" here? Or "used properly," again, a little squishy to me. People freely choose to enter these discussions. And yes, some express themselves forcefully. I admit to at times wanting to bellow, "*STOP THE INSANITY!"*, ala Susan Powler, the motivational/nutritionist phenomenon of the 1990's, but most of the time try to keep things in check. 

To your other point, the thinking in dog training continually changes and evolves. Same with dog nutrition and health care. You are far from alone in experiencing those changes. And there's no need to be unsettled by them; none of us can go back in time and take off those choke chains, or extract the grocery store kibble from dogs we've fed that way. And boy, if I could go back and "unvaccinate" my former dogs, who were shot up with a gazillion annual vaccines, would I ever! You know, change is what life is about. And if you're looking for perfect harmony and consensus, well, in my experience you'll not find it in dog training discussions.


----------



## msminnamouse

I'll have a lot to contribute to this thread because I've done a lot of research on the topic of shock collars. I'll space it out instead of bombarding you guys with one huge post. I'll post studies, articles, and everything else regarding the topic. I'll try to keep it as objective as possible. I won't argue, I'll just post information. And yes, I have tried several brands of shock collars on myself, around my neck. The hand and arm aren't as sensitive and dogs don't wear them there. I'm not a person commenting on which I don't know and haven't experienced. It has ranged from no sensation (which makes it pretty pointless), to a definite uncomfortable feeling, to downright painful. Yes, many things are uncomfortable but is causing unnecessary discomfort humane? I prefer the painful jab of the needle when I get blood drawn to the not painful, but uncomfortable poking around in my vein, trying to find more blood.

My background is that I do a lot of behavioral research. I work with many different rescues. I foster dogs and train rescues at my home, in facilities and at other people's homes. I work with dogs with severe issues. Dogs with trust issues, fear issues, aggression issues (just about every case of aggression is linked to fear and insecurity), health issues, difficult to train dogs, dogs I've sworn have ADHD!!, dogs with OCD, dogs who have been trained via mainly punishment, etc. So not just your easy, run of the mill "normal" dogs. Dogs from abusive backgrounds, dogs from neglectful backgrounds, puppy mill brood dogs, feral dogs, etc.

Furthermore, I have also trained your undamaged, normal, happy go lucky dogs without any major issues, as well as my own service dog. 

The first step is to rule out medical causes for the misbehavior. Lameness, thyroid, OCD, etc. can cause a gamete of behavior issues. Health issues must be dealt with before behavior modification is to have a fair chance of working. If you use a shock collar without ruling out a medical cause for the behavior, is that fair and how effective will it be? You may end up with a dog who will no longer tell you that something is physically wrong and this may aggravate an injury because they will just continue working through their pain. That is not fair. My own service dog became noncompliant at a point and the vets insisted that they couldn't find anything wrong. If I had given up and just shocked her instead of getting to the bottom of it, it would have been very cruel. We finally found out that she has a very painful back condition. No wonder she didn't want to do what I asked. With medication, she is back to being happily compliant. No shock required. Then we have my current foster dog. She has OCD. She can't help her barking. She doesn't even know that she's doing it. Nothing that I or her behavior consultant could do would make it stop. She's being medicated for her OCD and anxiety and now behavior modification for the barking is starting to work. Shocking her for something that she can't help would be cruel.

It's not often that I run into a dog that I can't manage on my own. But I don't know everything and I'm human, not perfect. Yet, rather than resort to physical punishment, which I NEVER use, I seek outside help from someone more experienced and knowledgable than me. Together, with medical intervention, myself and outside help, the issues have always been resolved without physical punishment, such as shock.

Let's cover suppression and some fall out in this first thread. Shock collars suppress behavior and nothing else. A dog is agitated by something. Very stressed out. They relieve their stress by excessive barking. It gets on everyone's nerves. It would be very easy to throw a bark collar on them and just suppress the barking. But what does that accomplish? Does it cure the anxiety? No, and it's likely to have made it worse because being shocked is stressful. Measuring stress hormones and just looking at body language alone proves this. (More to come on this later. Bark collars will also be discussed as they provide different study results since the dog can control the shock more.) It may or may not suppress the barking. If it did, then mission accomplished but since the anxiety is still there, it's likely to present it's self in a new annoying way that may be even worse than just excessive barking. And how fair is it to the dog to allow them to remain anxious?

A dog is dog aggressive. They're defensive and want to keep other dogs away so they do this with defensive and at times, offensive behavior, to keep themselves safe, as they perceive other dogs as a threat. So when you take them on walks, they bark and lunge at other dogs they see. So you shock them when they display this behavior. So, yes, you've suppressed the SYMPTOMS of the dog aggression but you've taken away the dog's voice to tell you that they're not comfortable with other dogs, and what's more, you've added yet another negative association to other dogs and make their dog aggression worse, even if they're suppressed from acting on it. 

What do you get? You may have just made a dog that will attack other dogs without so much as even a warning. This is a ticking time bomb. And maybe you've done the shocks while the dog had a child in their view. Since dogs are associative learners, the dog may now associate children with receiving shocks and may now be aggressive towards children. 

This isn't just for remote shock training, this is also the case with invisible fencing. Let me tell you about my neighbor's dog. (MANY dogs escape their invisible fences all the time, by the way. Ask animal control how many they find still with the collars on. If what's on the other side is more reinforcing than the shock is punishing, they'll go for it. This is also why shock collars shouldn't replace leashes.)

Let's call him Spike. Spike was adopted as a happy, go lucky puppy who loved other dogs. He got along very well with the resident dog that the family already owned, let's call him Spot. 

So because Spike is very playful, friendly and social, he likes other dogs as well. So every time another one of the neighborhood dogs would come over to greet him, Spike would come up to say hello. None of the dogs realized that their friendly little greetings resulted in Spike nearing the shock line and Spike would receive shocks every time a dog would come over to say hi. 

The nearness of other dogs becomes a source of shocks to Spike. Other dogs aren't safe, they hurt him. He needs to protect himself and keep them away now at all costs. Yet deep down, he still has social urges. So now, he lures in the neighborhood dogs with play bows and other invitations to play. The other dogs get close and then the memory of shocks sinks in and Spike flips a switch and attacks the dog before they can hurt him with shocks. Because, of course, Spike, like all dogs, is an associative learner and the shocks must be coming from the other dogs. You now have a dog aggressive dog and some of these dogs that have been attacked by him now also may be dog aggressive because of their traumatic attack. My own dogs became dog aggressive thanks to him and we had some work cut out for us to remedy this. A lot of trust and positive associations to other dogs got her through this and now, she LOVES the company of other dogs. In fact, if another dog has a problem and is dog aggressive, she simply dismisses them and walks away to newer and better things. 

If you're remote training and it isn't an invisible fence, this is where you'd shock Spike for his aggressive behavior. All that does is add further fear and defensiveness but as mentioned before, it suppresses his voice so he suffers silently and can't give voice to his fear. It does NOT fix the issue. It just covers it up.

It's like being deathly afraid of spiders and every time you show fear, you get a shock. So now, you shut down. Your fear is still there, only you can't show it. It's seething inside of you. 

This is learned helplessness. Please google Seligman's experiment.


----------



## msminnamouse

However, all of shock training isn't learned helplessness. Sometimes the dog can be offered a way out. This is forced compliance. Their choice to not comply is suppressed. So instead of motivating your dog with something they like in order to make learning fun and rewarding, you force them to comply by giving them shocks if they don't. Every new behavior carries the risk of shocks. You get a dog that's afraid to try new things. You get a dog that's frantic to comply because they're working to avoid shocks. You get a stressed dog. A stressed dog doesn't learn very well. The Amglyda kicks in. This is where fight or flight takes place. The dog is working for self perseverance and retaining information and learning is difficult under stress because the dog can't focus solely on what they're being taught, they instead have to divert some of their focus to the stress of the impending shocks. If you had used something that your dog finds rewarding enough to work for, each behavior becomes self reinforcing because it carries with it the memory of receiving a reward. Endorphins are released when the behavior is performed, even when treats are no longer given every time. 

Using physical punishment because you aren't able to get a dog to want to comply out of their own free will isn't good training. It's force. In order to train well, you should figure out what the dog is willing to earn and use it to reinforce behaviors. It needs to be effectively done. If you've failed, it's not the dog's fault. Shocking a dog for the human's failure to effectively train is not fair. Studies have proven that animals learn best by positive reinforcement training. EVEN high level training, such as what military and police dogs require. Google Steve White. He churns out very stable and reliable working dogs.

Positive reinforcement is fun and rewarding. Very little stress is involved and it's very difficult for it to go dangerously wrong. Punishment, on the other hand, is well known to carry the risk of fall out. If you're adept enough to apply physical punishment without fall out, which is VERY difficult, then you should be adept enough to apply positive reinforcement effectively and correctly and not need physical punishment.

Next, I'll include sources from studies, cases, papers, journals, and body language references. I'll also include the pro-shock arguments and counter them. 

Again, argue with me if you will but I'm just interested in putting out the facts so everyone can make their own informed decisions. It comes down to what you decide for your dog. No one else can make that decision for you.

If what I wrote sounds like a personal attack or judgment on anyone, then that wasn't my intent and I apologize if it did come across that way.

And for the record, there is PLENTY you can do without utilizing physical punishment and intimidation. It's not just reinforce what you want and ignore the rest. That's not practical and no one is 100% positive reinforcement. 

However, what you can do and what I do, is I reinforce what I want, then I alter unwanted behaviors into acceptable behaviors and/or I remove reinforcement for unwanted behaviors. Dogs do what works for them. It's very easy to play to this. Make what you want work for them and what you don't want not work for them. They will make the conscience decision to comply because they will do what works for them and everything else becomes superflous for them.


----------



## tortoise

Please define how you are using the word "punishment". It seems like your'e using it as a layman's term and not in the scientific way.

If I have a toy, and my dog jumps on me (which I don't want) and I do not give the toy, that is NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT. It is not harmful, coersive or forceful. In fact "positive trainers" rely heavily on negative punishment.

If you use it as layman's temrs, then I don't think you understand correct use of the ecollar. Not pain or force, but another way to communicate in certaint, black and white with perfect timing (and that's the selling pitch for clickers).

There are many ways to use and ecollar. Some are abhorent (negative reinforcement as you mention). Some are legitimate, compassionate training. So let's stop talking about the device and start talking about the way it is used if this thread is going to continue.

Edited to add: I need to sign off for the night since I'm getting sedated from my medication.


----------



## fjm

Ecollars are sold on their ability to deliver positive punishment and negative reinforcement. The fact that they can, if used at the very lowest available settings, possibly be used as a simple marker or communication device is by the by - so can innumerable other tools, that cannot also be used to deliver a painful shock. I think Minna's point is pretty clear, especially with the deliberate use of the phrase "physical punishment".

I've often thought that the "scientific" use of the word punishment, as used in learning theory, actually has a lot to answer for. Those well versed in the theory understand it to mean anything added or subtracted that serves to diminish a behaviour - the vast majority of the population understand it to mean doing something thoroughly unpleasant to the dog, often in a spirit more of exasperation and revenge than with any thought of training. It is why I would always be very wary of using the term with any kind of approbation in a general forum.


----------



## msminnamouse

I don't want to say punishment in terms of the four quadrants because I personally believe that just about 99% of positive punishment isn't what I'd consider humane but there's still 1% that I wouldn't consider as being intimidating or capital punishment.(Same with negative reinforcement.)

So when I say punishment, I mean intimidation and physical punishment, which can also encompass 99% of negative reinforcement, which isn't technically punishment but still can punish. Keep smacking someone until they shut up is punishing, even though you're technically speaking, negatively reinforcing their talking.

Negative punishment is simply removing the reinforcement that a behavior is trying to obtain. It too can become intimidating or physical if, say, you take away a dog's food if they resource guard it. That compounds the dog's perceived need to guard their food, lest they lose it. Which is harmful, forceful and coercive. Even negative reinforcement isn't free from harm and fall out. To claim otherwise doesn't show a clear understanding of learning theory or the quadrants. The beneficial thing to do would be to counter condition the human's presence near the food to be viewed as a positive thing, instead of simply taking away what the dog is trying to achieve. Just like if a dog has a jumping problem, it's infinitely better to reinforce all four feet on the ground instead of letting them practice jumping and then punishing them for it. All four feet on the ground is more reinforcing than jumping so there's no need at all for negative punishment for jumping and practicing the unwanted behavior of jumping. Then you proof it when you know the dog has it solid. Kikopup has an excellent video demonstrating this. 




Allowing the dog to mess up by jumping and then punishing them for it doesn't tell them what you want them to do instead. It leaves them guessing at what they should be doing because you don't suggest an acceptable option. You don't give direction.

That being said, I'm not of the school that you ALWAYS have to have an alternative behavior in mind for your dog to perform instead of just sometimes telling them to stop. Just stopping sometimes suffices. Like if a dog is about to jump into a puddle, just telling them to "leave it" is okay, you don't need to them do something else other than just not jumping in. 

But in the jumping situation, the dog thinks that jumping is acceptable because they want your attention and they think it's the best way to get it. Show them a better way to get your attention. Teach them something instead. Learning new things should be fun. 

I absolutely understand all the uses of an e-collar. Shock a dog if they bark, +P. Keep shocking a dog until they stop pulling on a leash, -R. And I understand the ATTEMPTS to claim it as +R. Give a dog a choice ONLY between an intense shock and a less intense shock. The dog picks the less intense shock over the more intense shock. Since the dog PREFERS it to a more intense shock, you use it to mark a behavior. Since,_ by comparison_, it is less aversive than the more intense shock. That doesn't mean that the dog enjoys the shock. The dog is in reality, working to avoid the more intense shock and is settling for the less aversive shock because this is the choice that they have. This is not +R. This is poor attempt to try to justify shock as non-aversive and it's ability to be used as a marker. I can withhold a smack as a marker for compliance too. 

Shocking a dog causes discomfort or pain and is not compassionate by any definition of the word. Especially since shock causes undue stress and isn't even necessary. The top dog trainers and behaviorists don't condone or use shock. Karen Pryor, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Pat Miller, the list goes on and on. They've taken dog training and behavior to new places and achieves brilliant things, all without shock.


----------



## tokipoke

Any word on Finn? How is he doing in his new home?

Thanks for the video about the No Jumping. I tried it with Leroy just now. He's very blah and boring when he's with me, so it was easy to treat "all four feet" on the ground. I then borrowed my neighbor's daughter. Leroy flips out and gets crazy excited about kids, always trying to jump on them. The clicking and treating worked GREAT!! He was still excited and was pushy trying to get near the kid (but NO paws or jumping!), but when he wasn't doing that, he either planted his butt firmly on the ground sitting, or laying down. He was more willing to do whatever it took it either get the treat or possibly get attention from the kid. I forgot to throw the treat on the floor - I'll do that with stinkier treats next - Leroy has a problem seeing and finding stuff on the ground because of his hair - I wanted to set him up for success with the click-n-treat so just stuffed the treats in his mouth. With this method, the child rang the doorbell - I told Leroy to shush, I was able to open the door, greet the kid, let her in, chit chat near the doorway, have her walk into the house, she walked around the living room, I then walked her to the door, chit chatted some more, and she left. Everything went very smoothly! Typically is a lot more chaotic then this.


----------



## pgr8dnlvr

God, I think this is the BEST derailed thread in the world!! Thanks SO MUCH for posting that video! I'm not a subscriber to her channel and with each video I watch I'm getting more and more EXCITED about working with my pup! I am hoping she accepts emails of questions (though I won't be surprised if she doesn't without pay of some sort). I understand that dog trainers are INFINITELY valuable and should be paid for the time and education, but I have to admit I'll always try to solicit free advice first  (Not that I don't pay for obedience and dog classes) I just find I may have a quick question here or there and everyone's training methods are SO different.

Anyway, I'll continue to follow this thread with fervor and interest! THANKS EVERYONE for your input!!

Rebecca


----------



## tokipoke

You're right.. this thread has gotten so off topic lol, but good for me, otherwise I wouldn't have seen the "No Jumping" video. Come to think of it, this is the method I use for Leroy when I play with Louis and I expect Leroy to lay down and be calm - I just didn't realize it. I get Louis to chase around a feather toy - Leroy either wants to chase the toy or play with Louis - it's a hyper game. But I only let Leroy do one thing - lay down and stay still. I plop treats on the ground near him every few minutes to reinforce this when I'm playing with Louis - I guess it is the same logic with throwing treats down on the floor when the dog is calm and not jumping on guests. Don't know why it is dawning on me now - perhaps that's why I'm not a dog trainer lol.

Btw, this method I find is a lot better then what I've been told to do - keep a prong collar on Leroy in the house with a short handled on it, when he does something I don't like, I give him a correction. I just never felt the urge to do that in my home. Leroy does walk with a prong collar outside on walks only because it keeps him from pulling so hard. Other collars like rolled leather collars, nylon collars, and slip leads don't work - he pulls SO hard he coughs, gags, and throws up from pulling so hard. I guess I just like that collar on walks only.


----------



## flyingpoodle

Just to be semantic, capital punishment is the death penalty, not the same as corporal punishment, or physical punishment. someone misused the term the other day talking about potty training which came out kinda funny, but since we're getting all precise and stuff here...

I love what Ian Dunbar did for the field of puppy training, but dislike his "corrective reprimand" or whatever he calls shouting the command at the dog the second time. Makes my puppy a little &#*. (she acts up and out when trained like this) She does very well with positive clicker training, since she seems to like having the marker to tell her when she is doing something well. 

I would trust Tortoise with an ecollar with my puppy, having heard her describe in several situations her training methods and watched a video of her tug training. I would not trust many other people with a leash and half an hour with my puppy. 

I loved in another post that Tortoise "admitted her training weakness" of having treats and clickers stashed all over her house. It gave me something to work towards this week.

I am in the camp of it (ecollar) is a tool, and it is the user that matters. 

I don't think the person asking about barking in the back yard should even think about this tool. There are lots of other tools that need to be tried first. Like click-and-treat for exploring scary things...and a flashlight with it.


----------



## mom24doggies

I find this thread and all the differing views quite interesting. I can see points from all sides. My main issue with e collars is that they are a) easily misused and b) readily available to the general public. I'm not even sure there IS a justified use of them. As many have pointed out, there are other ways of teaching that are not as easily abused. On the other hand, many dogs seem to respond well to them. I'm not expert enough to really have much of an opinion about them other than to say I feel they shouldn't be generally available to Joe Shmoe. And I don't trust myself to use one. I won't lie, I have considered getting one for my Sammie who insists on breaking out of the fence. But I know there is a better way to teach her, I just need to find it.  And I certainly don't want to cause her any damage! ( if that's possible lol....dog has less brains than a rock! Kidding, she's actually very sensitive, just doesn't comprehend a lot of things. )


----------



## tortoise

I was afraid to touch an ecollar until I was mentored by a well-known trainer who now uses them on puppies (she did not at the time she taught me).

She wouldn't even let me touch the remote for weeks.  Making sure I followed through on every step of the training.

She also told me about the ancient ecollars how they worked, their failures, and some horrible training situations she witnessed with the old-old ecollars. :afraid: So I have a better idea of where the stigma is coming from.

My biggest complaint about the ecollar is that _my thumb _has clicker imprtinting. I have several times with different dogs been so excited about a behavior and clicked it. Except I had clicked the ecollar, not the clicker. What an awful feeling. But with such low stimulation on the collar, no harm was done except severe embarassment to me. This has happened to me with probably 4 dogs and none of them were afraid to try the behavior again. (thankfully!!!) I want an ecollar that has a built in clicker.


----------



## liljaker

Well, with all this talk of electronic and pinch collars, I feel a heck of a headache coming on! See what y'all have done to me? Honestly, though, I have found a much better way to get Sunny to do what I want him to and I am surprised nobody on this forum, with all its experts, has brought it up. I will be posting a video on YouTube soon.

I take away his iPad! Now, I know that seems cruel, but it really does work. First, let me tell you that I have used an iPad, quite regularly, and know first hand that I will do about anything to get it back if someone takes it from me--cuts me off from the outside world, my friends, my PF posts, internet, shoe shopping online, etc., So, I consider myself an expert on the subject. I have not gotten certified, but really don't think I need to, I know what I need to know.

Good news is, I have not been forced to resort to this form of punishment and for Sunny's sake, he better hope I never have to. He spends hours on his iPad and I don't CARE if he wants to chat with his pals up there in Saskatchewan. He better watch his step. I will bet he will learn quickly and realize that he better listen to me at all times.


----------



## Chagall's mom

liljaker said:


> Well, with all this talk of electronic and pinch collars, I feel a heck of a headache coming on! See what y'all have done to me? Honestly, though, I have found a much better way to get Sunny to do what I want him to and I am surprised nobody on this forum, with all its experts, has brought it up. I will be posting a video on YouTube soon.
> 
> I take away his iPad! Now, I know that seems cruel, but it really does work. First, let me tell you that I have used an iPad, quite regularly, and know first hand that I will do about anything to get it back if someone takes it from me--cuts me off from the outside world, my friends, my PF posts, internet, shoe shopping online, etc., So, I consider myself an expert on the subject. I have not gotten certified, but really don't think I need to, I know what I need to know.
> 
> Good news is, I have not been forced to resort to this form of punishment and for Sunny's sake, he better hope I never have to. He spends hours on his iPad and I don't CARE if he wants to chat with his pals up there in Saskatchewan. He better watch his step. I will bet he will learn quickly and realize that he better listen to me at all times.


You just_ zapped_ my funny bone but good!!!!!:laugh::lol:ound:


----------



## msminnamouse

> So I have a better idea of where the stigma is coming from.


I was talking about the new, expensive, top of the line models. The Dogtras, the Eisteins, the TriTronics, etc. I was also talking about modern training, not what was done several years ago or more.

Mixing corrections and rewards is highly confusing for animals and counterproductive. A shock collar with a clicker makes no sense and shows a serious flaw in understanding learning theory. I'll post an article on this tomorrow with the others.


Tokipoke, if you want help on how to walk your dog on leash without jabbing spikes into his or her neck, please feel free to PM me. It's a very rewarding feeling, IMO, to know that your dog walks nicely next to you because they want to, because they enjoy being near you, not because of what will happen if they don't. You'll be able to walk your dog with a leash or no leash. I don't even need leashes for my dogs if we're not near traffic. The leash is an extra precaution, not a means of controlling and communicating.


----------



## tortoise

mom24doggies said:


> I won't lie, I have considered getting one for my Sammie who insists on breaking out of the fence. But I know there is a better way to teach her, I just need to find it.


We have underground fence and Jet kept testing it and roaming when the fence collar was on my fiance's dog. (one collar, two dogs.... not a good idea).

He demonstrates that he understands the boundary. I was unwilling to raise the collar level.

So I thought about it for a while and (duh!) I need to make staying home more valueable/rewarding than leaving the yard. I went back to treats for coming inside. Lots and lots of biscuits. He has not left the yard since - and I haven't used the fence collar on him either.

Electronic trainers are not an excuse to not work with your dog, to not think, to not teach, to not reward, to not have patience!

It might be hard to conince Sammie that staying home is more fun than roaming, but if you can convince her of that she'll stay home.


----------



## flyingpoodle

tortoise said:


> We have underground fence and Jet kept testing it and roaming when the fence collar was on my fiance's dog. (one collar, two dogs.... not a good idea).
> 
> He demonstrates that he understands the boundary. I was unwilling to raise the collar level.
> 
> So I thought about it for a while and (duh!) I need to make staying home more valueable/rewarding than leaving the yard. I went back to treats for coming inside. Lots and lots of biscuits. He has not left the yard since - and I haven't used the fence collar on him either.
> 
> Electronic trainers are not an excuse to not work with your dog, to not think, to not teach, to not reward, to not have patience!
> 
> It might be hard to conince Sammie that staying home is more fun than roaming, but if you can convince her of that she'll stay home.


Just demonstrate to Sammie that the wi-fi for the iPood, oops, the iPad, doesn't work past the fence boundaries 'cause you didn't spring for 4G :2in1::ahhhhh:

(groan, sorry)

I was so surprised when I got my first spoo that he only ran away when there were cats or dogs involved. My prior experience with dogs had fairly universally involved dogs that didn't get enough walks and stimulation, and if they got out the front door, they were GONE! So imagine my surprise when one day I was running him in my neighbors yard across the street (we were renting, no yard) and I closed the gate and left him in there to run back to our house to grab some vitally important  forgotten item, and I came out the back door, saw the gate open, no dog in the yard, started panicking, then saw George, my dog, sitting with a frantic look at my front door wondering where the heck I was! 

All these years later I still feel special that being with me was better than running in the yard. And still feel stupid for not predicting the situation. Luckily I am much smarter now :aetsch:


----------



## tortoise

msminnamouse said:


> I was talking about the new, expensive, top of the line models. The Dogtras, the Eisteins, the TriTronics, etc. I was also talking about modern training, not what was done several years ago or more.
> 
> Mixing corrections and rewards is highly confusing for animals and counterproductive. A shock collar with a clicker makes no sense and shows a serious flaw in understanding learning theory. I'll post an article on this tomorrow with the others.


No it is not confusing at all with marker training.

Random aversives can cause irreversible neurosis - especially when paired with a reward, the dog can be destroyed mentally quickly.

Markers are communicators. Clickers are markers. They communicate that your dog has done something worth repeating and will recieve a reward.

Markers MUST be used with P+ or any aversive. The beauty of using a marker is that the dog learns that is has the power to fix the mistake and not receive the aversive. The goal of aversives in training is to never have to use them again. By communicating clearly and with the dog's understanding and active participation, aversives can be used with perfect clarity and combined with reward with no confusion.

My dog's "no marker" is the sound "ot". It means a) bad choice and b) quit or receive a correction (either positive or negtive punishment).

Because I have taught this clearly and CONDITIONED it, I don't need a leash (except when legally required). I don't need anything except my voice. If he does something stupid, all he needs to hear is "ot" and he will stop the behavior without becoming stressed.

Watch my videos. I say "ot" and watch my dog's reaction. He's not stressed, he just realizes he is out of position (or whatever), he fixes it, and gets a reward for fixing it.

By teaching the "no marker" I doubled my dog's chances of earning rewards. He gets rewards for the right behavior AND he gets rewards for choosing to fix his wrong behaviors.

Marker training is powerful. The results are phenomenal. When you work without adversives, there is a cap. There is a limit how far your dog can go. It depends on the dog, but at some point (in advanced training) you end up with excessive managing o the environment and cajolling the dog into consistent performance. Some people don't mind this at all. They are very happy with the results and their relationship with their dog means more than missing a few points at a trial.

The training discipline I'm immersed in (service dogs) requires complete obedience - and without it a person could be injured or die. I did raise a service dog puppy with "all positive" training. She didn't receive any aversive until she was over a year old. It was a COMPLETE DISASTER - not the aversives, but by raising this individual puppy without aversives. She had some nice qualities from the clicker training, but overall it was not good.

P.S. Clearly my sleeping pill didn't work very well. I accidently took double the dose and still only slept for 2 hours.


----------



## cavon

pgr8dnlvr said:


> God, I think this is the BEST derailed thread in the world!! Thanks SO MUCH for posting that video! I'm not a subscriber to her channel and with each video I watch I'm getting more and more EXCITED about working with my pup! I am hoping she accepts emails of questions (though I won't be surprised if she doesn't without pay of some sort). I understand that dog trainers are INFINITELY valuable and should be paid for the time and education, but I have to admit I'll always try to solicit free advice first  (Not that I don't pay for obedience and dog classes) I just find I may have a quick question here or there and everyone's training methods are SO different.
> 
> Anyway, I'll continue to follow this thread with fervor and interest! THANKS EVERYONE for your input!!
> 
> Rebecca


Rebecca, I'm so glad that you are finding this positive information interesting and helpful. The information currently being provided by ms minnamouse is well thought out, encompassing and has documented theory behind it. This is why I keep preaching that it is of the utmost importance for all pet owners to seek out information from well qualified sources. 

I just keep thinking of an e-collar on your little pup's neck and I just feel sick. My guy is 60 lbs and he is trainable, so keep reading and I just know that you will find a positive solution that will work for you. It just takes time to sort thought a lot of stuff and then the patience to work at training!


----------



## msminnamouse

I spoke first about behavior modification but didn't touch on obedience so here it is.

But first, I glanced over and saw something about invincible fences. I have a real fence and I frequently take my dogs outside it. I teach them invisible boundaries outside the fence without any shock or aversives. Yet again, Kikopup has a good video on how to teach this. By the way, Kikopup covers a lot of topics and spends her time making free videos. She also offers free advice. Her goal is to promote kinder yet effective training. This is an effort of love for her, not profit.

This is one of her boundary videos 




I believe she has two others. Just Google "kikopup boundaries" for the others. 

I'll probably be making a video on invisible boundaries myself soon. 

In regards to obedience training. You can achieve high obedience without any coercion, any intimidation or physical punishment. I know. I've done it with many a dog. Including my own service dog. And Steve White has proven it again and again with military and police dogs. 

The goal is to be clear in what you're teaching so the dog understands what you expect, practice it often in small reps (so the dog retains an interest but often enough that they retain the knowledge), and properly motivate them to want to comply. Learning should be fun and rewarding. If you make it fun and rewarding enough (you need to know how to find out what your dog finds worth earning and how to use it, including when to phase it out and how), your dog WILL comply because they enjoy doing it. It's run and rewarding, and like I said previously, it becomes self reinforcing via endorphins. Also a job well done builds self confidence, provides mental stimulation and enrichment, and is a good bonding process. 

If there isn't a physical or mental disorder in the way that you have't taken care of, and you're not raising the bar too high too soon, and your dog isn't placed over threshold (like expecting an over stimulated dog to be able to focus in a training class in the middle of a Petco store), and if you're being consistant, and you've been crystal clear so your dog understands what you want, and you've properly motivated your dog to obtain their voluntary compliance, and you haven't abused the reinforcement and turned it into a bribe, and you haven't poisoned the cue, there's no reason in the world why you won't get high compliance without any need for shock. 

It's late and I'm tired and I'm probably not explaining this well so let me bring up some examples.


----------



## msminnamouse

I have a very excitable dog. Instead of starting off in a calm environment with few distractions, I decide to place them in one of those Petco/Petsmart classes where they're located right in the middle of a busy store. There are distractions GALORE. My dog can't concentrate on what is being taught. My dog doesn't have any focus skills yet. Who's fault is this? Certainly not the dog's. This is not an example of good training and it's not fair to shock a dog or otherwise punish them for my own ineptitude. 

I have a dog aggressive dog and I take them to a group class with other dogs. Now, how can I expect them to focus on what I'm trying to teach when they're focusing on the other dogs? Again, I should punish myself, not my dog for setting the dog up to fail.

I have a fearful dog and I taught her to sit. Now I expect her to sit in my spacious, open kitchen in front of the family on cue perfectly. She feels vulnerable sitting because it takes more time to jump up than if she were already standing. I might as well expect her to go jump in someone's lap and ask for pets. 

I teach "Leave it" by placing a piece of chicken in front of the dog and I reward them for leaving it with that piece of chicken. Yet I wonder why my dog sometimes doesn't seem to quite understand when I tell them to "leave it". Of course they don't, it's confusing to ask them to leave something that you're just going to end up giving them. It's not off limits at all.

I want a dog to come to me, so I keep saying over and over again, "Come! Come! Here boy! Come here!" Why won't my dog come right away? I haven't taught them to come when I say "Come". I've taught them to come whenever.

I'm trying to teach a dog to lay down. So I keep patting the floor. Or at least, that's what I _think_ I'm doing but in reality, I'm waving my hand around and my dog has no idea what I want.

I want my dog to heel, so I reel them over to my side and expect them to just stay there. Why should they? I haven't reinforced anything.

I want my dog to tap, so I keep marking them dropping their paw instead of lifting their paw. I've just reinforced keeping their paw on the ground instead of tapping it.

I want my dog to give a faster performance in agility, but I continue to reinforce slow runs and don't give jack pots for better performances.

Let's look at some good examples of training, where you set the dog up for success.

My favorite way to teach a lot of things is NAKED. I like to start in the home, where it's calm and there are few distractions with the dog off lead. The dog is relaxed and focused. I start with the basics before moving on to harder things. And I have to be properly motivating to the dog in order to keep them in front of me, paying attention. 

Recall. I don't even teach this with a leash. I find out what motivates the dog. I set out some possible rewards and let the dog pick what they want. Then I do this a few more times, always including what the dog picked from the last time. Obviously, what the dog picked the most often is what they will hold most dear. I use it to my advantage. Let's say it's a treat.

Then I hold out the treat and have the dog come to me to get it. I do this a few times. When the dog is reliably coming to me to get the treat, I put a cue word to it. A few more times, I stop showing the treat in my hand. The treat is only produced AFTER the dog performs the recall. Eventually, without raising the bar too high too fast, I stop giving a treat every time and only do it intermittently. The dog is kept guessing which time they'll get the treat. But I ALWAYS praise. Feedback is important. I don't ruin the recall by using it to bring a dog to me for unpleasant things or to end fun, nor do I keep repeating the cue word to devalue it. Nor do I ruin a recall by punishing the dog if they didn't come right away. That makes no sense. What dog would want to come back to someone who's going to be unpleasant. It should always be a joy to return.


----------



## msminnamouse

The point is, with naked training, you can't use force of any kind. You can't even use a long leash to reel in the dog. The only way the dog will come is if you're training properly. It's a good test of your teaching skills.

When recall is solid in the house, then I move outside to a fenced in large field when no one else is around. Just the dog and me. The bar is a little higher, there's the distractions of the great outdoors but they don't have other dogs and people to contend with their focus. You use treats again more frequently and work on phasing them out here as well.

When we've got that down, then we move on to a more distracting environment, up the treat use and phase it out again. Eventually, you proof it by giving the dog more challenging recalls and testing them. Proofing does NOT require corrections. If you train properly, corrections are superflous. 

Train solidly in the first place and you will achieve reliable, lasting results. You won't need shock for this. Your dog won't make mistakes. If your dog gets confused and makes mistakes, the blame is on you, not the dog. You weren't clear, you didn't teach well, you asked too much too soon, or any number of mistakes. Shocking a dog for your failure is not fair to the dog. We HAVE to accept our own our failures and set aside our egos. 

Ginger started sniffing at shelves after a lengthy period of no public access. I'm talking months. I realized that we needed to go back and get her "leave it" solid. So we did. Then we went to stores and I had to catch her BEFORE she sniffed a shelf to tell her to "leave it". And she did leave it, because it was rewarding enough to do and the behavior was solid again. I had properly motivated her and gotten the behavior solid. Now she knows that shelves are not to be sniffed. It required no punishment. It was my fault for not getting it solid or lapsing on practicing it often enough. I could have easily have shocked her every time she sniffed a shelf and that would have suppressed the behavior but I wasn't about to shock her to punish her for my poor training. That's not fair. I owe her better.

To tell the truth, I wouldn't want Ginger being my service dog if she were working because she was made to fear the repercussions of not complying. That's not giving her a choice. I want her helping me because she enjoys it and because she wants to. She's a beloved family member always and when she's on duty, she's a valued employee, not a slave. Like any good employer, I have to make sure to respect her, properly motivate her and train her well.

In return, Ginger comes with up with new ways ALL ON HER OWN to help me. She's not afraid to try new things because they don't carry the risk of shock. There was the time we were leaving a doctor's appointment and she began walking badly on the leash. She even started shoving me away from the elevators. Well, this was naughty and I could have yanked her collar to get her to quit it. Or I could have shocked her previously to prevent these kinds of things. But no, I walked in a circle to get her back on track and she relented and we went down the elevator. If there were stairs, I would have listened to her and taken them instead. We got to the bottom and there were all kinds of emergency vehicles and the smell of burning plastic was thick in the air. The stench must have been wafting up the elevator shaft and she didn't feel that it was safe to go towards the noxious smell. 

She also taught herself to snap me out of my trances due to my sleep deprivation. She'll break her "down and stay" or her heel next to me when I get into a trance and she'll put pressure on the leash to snap me out of it. It's naughty any other time, but she doesn't do it any other time. But would she be doing it if daring to step out of line like that carried the risk of shock? Maybe. But most likely not.

And though she often comes up with new behaviors, since this is encouraged, she's developed the good judgement to determine which are good behaviors to act on and which aren't. It's very rare that she does anything that shouldn't be reinforced.

My friend trains DETECTION dogs. She actually trains them to detect impending seizures and other kinds of attacks. It's been argued for a long time that this can't be taught, that a dog just does it or doesn't. But that hasn't been the case with her dogs. She doesn't use intimidation or physical punishment and her dogs feel comfortable to be assertive enough to behave in such a way to let their handlers know that something bad is about to happen. They have the confidence and safety of mind to step out of line to find a way to alert their handler. They'll break their heel, bark in public, jump up on their person, etc. to let them know. All things that many other service dogs would get shocked for. And the dog would no longer want to alert. The point is that she believes that many more dogs than were previously thought are capable of alerting, it's just how we train these dogs which leads them to decide whether it's safe to step out of line to alert or not.


----------



## msminnamouse

There's also a wonderful documentary on service dogs trained without intimidation and physical punishment. They throw themselves into their work with such joy and devotion. They have fewer washouts than organizations who utilize punishment based methods. Even the dog that was unsuitable for that one particular kid didn't wash out of the program. They listened to the dog, reassigned her and she was fine with someone else. Through a Dog's Eyes | PBS

Watch the body language of these dogs performing. Then compare to this video of a shock trained service dog. This dog is frantically rushing to and fro, working to avoid shock. This dog is stressed and her body language doesn't indicate that she enjoys her work. But it doesn't matter much to the trainer. As long as she performs, whether she wants to or not, is what counts. 




First off, this dog is very insecure and hesitant in her movements. Could it be because each behavior carries the risk of shock? She certainly looks furtively around during every action. You saw how reluctant she was to break her very strict heel. What might happen if she broke the heel and she wasn't meant to? What is she afraid of? You may have perceived a "happy dog" but not all tail wags are equal. That was not a relaxed, waving to the left wag. Panting is not always because a dog is hot or thirsty. That was some heavy panting and it looks rather cool out there and I'm sure the dog isn't being deprived of water. The dog's face looks tight, the eyes and ears hyper alert, and the body tight and tense as well. And why the whining for a simple training session? There's a lot of quick stepping. And why does she hunker down and lower her head every time the handler says, "Uh uh or no"? What's the big deal that she messed up? Why is she showing such extreme appeasement behaviors for innocent mistakes? And HOW effective is shock training when the handler has to poison her cues by repeating them so often? How good is the trainer for poisoning her cues so often? And by the way, this woman uses both corrections and rewards.

I am not making this body language up. There's a video series by Dr. Jean Donaldson: 



 This is a link to the first but the rest follow.

If a video isn't for you, here are some illustrations: Dog Training-related Drawings |

And here are some photos: Dog Body Language Diagrams

How many stress, appeasement and displacement signals did you see in the video? How many do you see in your own dogs when they're being shocked? How many do you see in the photo and video galleries of shock collar trainers?

This woman is a professional. She's been training for more than 20 years, been the head of shelter boards, yada, yada, yada. 

So what? Because it's in the hands of a professional, it makes it okay and right? Anyone can hang a shingle on their door right now advertising their services as a professional dog trainer. Even as a behaviorist (although, they really aren't unless they have a _behavioral sciences_ degree). In fact, a study shows that the use of aversives, such as shock, correlates with a lack of formal certified education in the dog training and behavior field. The reality is that many of these shock collar trainers learn in shelters. That's right. That's where they hone their shocking, practicing on the shelter dogs. They can work out all their mistakes on these dogs. http://www.daff.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/1873014/working-dog-survey.pdf

It's proven. I don't see ethologists, veterinary behaviorists and certified applied animal behaviorists (these are the people with the HIGHEST degree of education in this field) advocating or using shock collars.

One of the most famous shock collar trainers and certainly one of the biggest advocates is Robin MacFarlane. She runs The Truth About Shock Collars. It has a lot of sources. But why are the vast majority of the sources HER OWN ARTICLES that she's written HERSELF? She's using her own conjecture to back up her own conjecture. Why? Because almost every study shows that shock is stressful and not the best way for animals to learn. Like I said, I'll be posting studies and articles and more sources tomorrow. Unlike Robin, they are not written or conducted by me. 

Robin also has proudly put some of her videos up on Youtube. 

This video shows that she doesn't seem capable of competently motivating a dog unless it's with the fear of shock, hence the faster performance when she applies the shock collar. 



 This is a crutch for her lack of abilities. Shocking the dog because she can't or won't train better. Many other trainers would get a better performance AND a less stressed dog. Susan Garrett comes to mind of one of many.

Now, here's a video of her using a shock collar on a very fearful dog. 



 It works, but it's a dirty, deceitful trick. And not at all necessary. You could have gained this dog's trust with kindness, confidence building and positive associations and conditioning. Debbie Jacobs comes to mind. But like I said, not for Robin.

Instead, Robin plays a game of hot lava with the dog. If the dog is anywhere else other than near Robin, the dog gets shocked. The world becomes an even scarier place. Robin becomes a false island of security. However, the dog doesn't know that her savior is the one that's causing the shocks. So now, in addition to making the world a scarier place and suppressing the dog voicing their fear (but not curing the fear), you've also created a clingy dog. Because no where else than at your side is safe from shock. 

As discussed before, you can even use shock as positive reinforcement! I believe Robin also have a video on this but I'm frankly tired of watching her videos. Like I explained before, you give the dog two choices and ONLY two choices. An intense shock for non-compliance and a weak shock for compliance. Of course the dog chooses the weak shock for compliance. Yet Robin claims that dogs like being shocked. She's gone so far as to make a Facebook group entitled, "I Love My E-Collar and So Does My Dog". But if dogs love their "e-collars", then why do the dogs pick the less severe shocks? If they loved them, wouldn't they pick the more intense shock?

Lastly, many shock collar trainers go to all kinds of lengths to procure business. I've seen them advertise as "force free". I've seen them claim to be "gentle and using only positive reinforcement". They claim to "build trust". I know I'd trust the person who shocks me if I knew they were doing it! They also offer free consults and first lessons to everyone who adopts a dog. Because they're "having a special". People turn up and surprise! It's shock collar training, yet they failed to mention this previously. 

They let clients feel the shock. They place the shock, on the lower settings (not always what the dog receives), on the client's hand or arm. These are not very sensitive parts of the body. In fact, they now make blood glucose readers that you can test on your arm because it hurts less than other parts of the body. 

So now clients have decided that it's tolerable. But they don't get shocked on a regular basis. They aren't taken by surprise when shocked. They knew it was coming. They don't get shocked for making mistakes or not understanding. They don't get shocked on the higher levels, on their neck. They also are in full control of being shocked while the dogs can't say "stop, I don't like it."

There's a three part experiment.. The first part shows that pain and discomfort vary greatly from person to person. It also varies greatly from person to dog and dog to dog. It's nice that I may decide that my dog doesn't mind getting shocked on a 5, but I can't ask her how it feels to HER. 

The second part is training humans in a foreign language by a professional, highly educated trainer. This is as close as "humanese" to dogs as we can get. The results show that people were unclear at times what was expected of them. They were also confused and unclear at times why they received shocks. They couldn't always attribute the shock to any particular behavior. Shock is very fair, no? 

The second and third parts of the experiment are being written up. You'll have to be patient if you'd like to see them as they're not published yet but the first part is. Shock Experiment Nr. 1


----------



## msminnamouse

> Markers MUST be used with P+ or any aversive.


First of all, I didn't say markers. I said rewards. Rewards and markers aren't the same thing. Markers are the bridge to a reward. And no, markers and rewards don't have to be used with +P. Many trainers don't use markers or rewards. Or the rewards they use are considered to be rewards by the TRAINER but not the dog. I've heard of so many trainers who consider their petting to be a gift to the dog God and they believed that every dog really thinks their petting is worth doing anything for. When in reality, MANY dogs don't enjoy petting. Not only that, when given the choice between being smacked around for non-compliance or a pet for compliance, most dogs will choose a pet even if they're not particularly impressed with petting. It's just the lesser of two evils.

Then you've got people like Cesar Millan. I often watch his show. He very often uses +P and -R and NO markers and NO rewards. Suppressing a behavior is all that he seems to care to achieve and that's all. The dog only knows that they've done something right when they get a reprieve from the manhandling. Getting nothing, in this case, is better than the manhandling. Sure, by comparison, it's quite nice. But is that a proper reward? No.

And a no marker or "neutral marker" as it's often called, is not punishment or a correction. You should read Roger Ambrante's article on this. The Magic Words ‘Yes’ and ‘No’ | Roger Abrantes


----------



## msminnamouse

You can also follow Edward (service dog with many tasks) on his Facebook group. No intimidation or physical punishment used. No shock. http://www.facebook.com/groups/280835720676/

You've also got this guy competing and winning with his dog in schutzhund, trained compulsion free. No shock. 




There are many, many more dogs requiring a high level of obedience trained without shock that are highly reliable. There's no excuse and no need.


----------



## liljaker

msminnamouse - you are a breath of fresh knowledgeable air on this thread......I do understand there are many different schools of thought on methods of training. My earlier post was not meant to make this discussion seem trivial by any means, but maybe to just lighten it up a bit, you know? I just wanted to post and let you know that I have thoroughly enjoyed reading all of your posts. I especially appreciate your kind and carefully worded explanations and clarifications for other members. Thanks again.


----------



## cavon

*Trust*

The responsibility of all pet owners and the only thing they ask of us


----------



## mom24doggies

tortoise said:


> It might be hard to conince Sammie that staying home is more fun than roaming, but if you can convince her of that she'll stay home.


 She doesn't roam, she just comes to the front porch (we are on a bit of property, so no roads are close) and lolls around haha! Occasionally she'll head off but not often. I think it's just the idea of being free that attracts her kwim?


----------



## tortoise

Really? Spamming a thread?

"Naked training" is impossible unless your dog never does anything undesriable or there is no behavior that you do not want to suppress. You cannot perfectly manage an environment. You will always resort to negative punishment to diminish an undesired behavior.

Of course Schutzhund can be trained without force. Schutzhund is the weakest protection sport. It tests OBEDIENCE in protection work. Negative punishment is the key to this. The dog desires to bite the prey item (sleeve), abd it doesn't perform correctly it doesn't get to bite. The dog is highly motivated to bite, therefore it higly motivated to be correct. Schutzhund can be worked entirely in prey drive, in contrast to other protection sports in which the dog must be able to function in defense drive. There are great books about postive training for pets and Schutzhund by Sheila Booth. Great books. I have cataloged hundreds of hours of video footage from Shcutzhund seminars. I don't recall ecollar use in any of them. *Why are you assuming that a single dog sport is associated with a specific training tool?* Have you ever been to a schutzhund club? Seminar? Trial? Ever trained a bitework dog? Ever raised a police K9? Do you know what you are talking about?

Markers are not bridges unless you follow the Synalia method which calls the marker that indicates the correct behavior the "terminal bridge". In all other versions of marker training, the bridge is any communication that indicates the dog is correct and should continue until the marker/clicker. 

I believe a service dog must be taught with clicker training to encourage the many unusual ways they must interact with the environment and people. One of my first experiences with helping somebody raise a service dog was with a puppy living at their home. I was absolutely clear that the puppy must never be punished, reprimanded, or stressed in anyway for mouthing or chewing object. (use the drop command and reward instead). The owner saw the puppy pick up poo and carry it in the yard. She said she yelled at it and I suspect she did more. The puppy never retrieved anything ever again and was washed out. Very sad. I refused to work with that person in the future. I believe in finishing off a service dog with some form of correction that is appropriate for the dog and situation. A dog that offers the behavior of pulling and emergency pull cord just to try to get a treat..... BIG problem. A dog that indicates incorrectly to cause the handler's symptoms rather than relieve them..... BIG problem. I feel that anything other than a harness, vest, or flat collar is inappropriate for a service dog in public. I have 2 service dogs client that are unwilling to maintain their dog's heeling training. One uses a Halti (which causes excessive pulling, rubbing on her chair, and hair loss to the dog) and makes me a little insane since the dog NEVER pulled before! The other had moved to a prong collar for her puppy's excitement when what she needed to do was tell people to leave her dog alone. Now her dog is both excited AND stressed when it is in public and a person distracts her. Imagine my horror when a children's book about service dog features a service dog on the cover with a prong collar on it!


----------



## tortoise

Now why don't you do justice to this thread and make lenghty posts on how every training tool - including the human voice - can be misused.

*I try to communicate that there is a good way to use an ecollar but instead of opening your mind, reading, trying to undestand, you spam the thread with all the wrong ways to use one*.

Dont you understand: I AGREE WITH YOU. Those are inappropriate, bad, damaging ways to use an ecollar.

But that doesn't mean that what I have described is innappropriate, bad, or damaging.


----------



## Chagall's mom

tortoise said:


> Really? Spamming a thread?"!


What are you talking about?? The rest of us are reading and benefiting from the dialog here. Your remark strikes me as a highly inappropriate.

*msminnamouse*: Your well-crafted, polite and informative posts in this thread are very interesting, and as you can see from the response of most others, much appreciated. I hope you will not be any way dissuaded from continuing to participate.


----------



## cavon

yes, Msminnamouse, please do keep providing the membership with positive training techniques. Every owner and pet can benefit from this type of information.


----------



## Countryboy

Chagall's mom said:


> What are you talking about?? The rest of us are reading and benefiting from the dialog here. Your remark strikes me as a highly inappropriate.


Not all of us are reading and benefiting. I don't really care abt e-collars. I don't use them. So I skip all the endless anecdotes and rhetorical questions meant mostly to slag someone else's training methods. 

But it's obvious to me that some of the rest are here to gush all over anyone who disagrees with Tortise. And that whole attitude strikes me as inappropriate.


----------



## Ladywolfe

This thread has gone beyond off-topic of the mixed-breed rescue dog. Regardless, once the OP desired to discuss the merits of her method of training, I do not believe that presenting other methods can in any way or manner be "spamming", and I find that a really silly comment, inflammatory, and inappropriate for this forum.

Msminnamouse, your well-presented and supported information has been like a breath of fresh air and has inspired me to do a few amazing things with my dogs in only two days.

For those of us who dearly are concerned about just "how" we go about accomplishing the behaviors we desire in our dogs, please keep posting.

For those who, as I said early on, simply use the result to justify the method--at least have the grace to not attack opposing viewpoints!!


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

One of the main reasons I barely check this forum is all in this discussion  A total waste of 30 minutes!


----------



## mom24doggies

PoodlePowerBC said:


> One of the main reasons I barely check this forum is all in this discussion  A total waste of 30 minutes!


 Actually this place is pretty tame. :-/ There are many forums I won't participate in because I stay in a perpetual rage mode lol!


----------



## Jdcollins

Tortoise.... I've seen mention several times of your video in this thread and I've gone through each page looking for the link.... can u tell me what page it's on or repost the link? I'd like to watch it


----------



## faerie

I would love for misinamouse's info to be posted in its own thread with a sticky. It's excellent info!!!


----------



## liljaker

I also hope that the new member, fearfuldog, will be posting on this thread soon. Would love another expert to voice in here. I do know she was waiting until she had permission to post on other threads.


----------



## liljaker

It is not of value to all people on PF, but for those who find it valuable I do think there is very good information. For instance, there are some threads I personally don't follow just because it does not cover a topic of interest to me.....I assume same applies here.


----------



## liljaker

CB - not sure why you are so staunchily defending someone when everyone here has a right to voice their own opinion, to disagree with someone's opinion, and they can state why they do, as long as it is within the boundaries of the Rules. If someone gets ruffled when more than one person disagrees with them, maybe they shouldn't be posting. I know I am not that thick-skinned, so sometimes I just turn the computer off -- sometimes I didn't and well, that was my choice. Don't jump in the water unless you can swim, you know? Hey, I have had my own issues with the particular member who posted they were leaving the forum and found many of the supposed "expert" postings to be very disturbing to me. I don't think the poster would have been quite so controversial were it not for the training techniques being suggested on a poodle forum -- perhaps if it was a police dog forum, for example, it may have been better understood. Most of the members here own poodles, and treat them like members of the family (maybe I am wrong at this assumption, but I do and always have) and well, it almost seems as if some of the postings are for "shock value" or attention rather than trying to explain, having empathy for a problem poodle, etc. That's my opinion; I have expressed it at other times and didn't get lots of "thanks" but that's ok, it's still my opinion. It's an internet forum everyone.


----------



## flyingpoodle

*Perspective*

So to summarize thread: Tortoise finds lovely dog at shelter, confesses feelings. Forum members start discussing feelings in context of attachment disorder and what love is anyhow. Cavon drags in from non-thread source a comment meant to be inflammatory about e-collars and Tortoise. Predictably heated discussion ensues about e-collars. Msminnamouse posts very long monologue. Other members start bickering. 

:angel2: :devil:


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

Psst ... Russell wears an e-collar during hunting season and when we go deep woods hiking  And He absolutely begs to get it put on before the walk!!!! No cowering or hesitation at all :afraid: He has never been shocked, but the vibration is a sure, quiet method of recall if I see a cougar, bear and cubs or nasty deer or moose. I personally believe this could be a lifesaver in some situations. I never use it if a hollar will do! And I wholeheartedly believe he would prefer to be off-leash and free with a barely annoying vibration page once in a blue moon than leashed to ol' slow-poke me every step of the way. Free to be a dawg!
:angel: :devil:


----------



## Carley's Mom

PoodlePower, that is the exact same way and reason my husband used them. All tools can be misused or used right. You can beat a dog with a leash, is that a reason to hate leashes?


----------



## msminnamouse

If Fearfuldogs is Debbie Jacobs then I'm very happy she's joined! She's a great advocate for positive reinforcement training and one of the top authorities on fearful dogs. She's also a really nice, intelligent woman and I'm proud to call her a friend.

I'll be starting another thread soon of my own on physical punishment and intimidation. 

Anyone interested in reading is free to and anyone not interested in reading it is free not to. 

It doesn't really make sense to me to read something that you don't like just to be able to have something to sullenly complain about. Why not just stop reading it if it bothers you? I read the rules of the forum and I haven't broken any.

Before I cease posting in this thread, I'll close with a link to the thread that brings to mind the dog who "enjoys" having their shock collar/prong collar/choke collar put on.

Basically to sum it up, shock collar equals hunting!! It's a tolerated means to an end. The article is about prong collars but substitute any tool meant to suppress behavior and force compliance and it's the same.

Although, the vibration, if conditioned properly is just that. A vibration. It shouldn't hurt or scare the dog or cause undue discomfort, unlike a choke, shock or prong collar. Not conditioned properly or on a dog with a low threshold, it too can be be a cause for much added stress.

Cryptozoology 101: The Hunt for the Elusive Prong-Collar Loving Dog | Dog Star Daily


----------



## Chagall's mom

This excerpt, from Casey Lomonaco KPA CTP, linked to in the post above, sums up my thinking about dogs who, from their owner's POV, are "happily excited" at the sight of their e-collar.

"I have, in fact, seen many dogs respond to the presentation of a prong collar or shock collar with happy, loose body language. Despite this, I don't believe I've yet met a dog who loves these tools. 

Virtually every dog loves going for a walk. Dogs that respond with joy at the presentation of a shock, choke, or prong collar are probably not excited about the collar itself but what the collar has come to predict - walkies, time out of the house, opportunities to engage with the environment. In other words, the reinforcement value of the walk is more salient to the dog than the punishment value of the aversive collar.  

Classical conditioning has taken place here and as we all know is very powerful in changing emotions and associations. We use classical conditioning all the time to teach fearful dogs, for instance, that the things they are afraid of are instead predictors of wonderful things. In the case of a prong, choke, or shock collar, the dog has been classically conditioned - each time the stimulus (collar) is presented, it is immediately followed by a potent reinforcer (walkies!), generally on a one-to-one ratio. Collar predicts walks, every time. Often, the appearance of the collar is the most salient predictor of what is for most dogs the most powerful reinforcer - getting out into fresh air with their handler. There is an element of Premack to the scenario...if you do this less probable/favored thing (get your prong collar on), you will then have the opportunity to do this more probable/favored thing (walkies). Powerful learning is at play here!"


----------



## PoodlePowerBC

Carley's Mom said:


> All tools can be misused or used right. You can beat a dog with a leash, is that a reason to hate leashes?


Something I totally agree with in this thread.

In my case Russell would be much more apt to feel abused if I left the Vibration collar at home and just brought his leash on our walks. 

As far as the prong collar goes, some dogs would get NO walk at all if their owners dropped the prong/ collars. Am I going to walk up to an owner and tell him "you are abusing your dog because you're walking it with a prong collar"? No way! If I saw it chained in the back yard, YES I WOULD!!! 
I don't like anyone that preaches "My way is the only way". And then try and make me feel bad for using a vibration collar!!! My dog is HARDLY abused!!! Seriously people!! I hear people saying a poodle in a Continental is a form of abuse from some guys. Ludicrous isn't it??
There are TONS of dogs in the world that need our help, and an owner with a prong collar and a well loved dog is not one of them.
Enough of this thread for me :act-up:


----------



## Chagall's mom

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Something I totally agree with in this thread.
> 
> In my case Russell would be much more apt to feel abused if I left the Vibration collar at home and just brought his leash on our walks.
> 
> As far as the prong collar goes, some dogs would get NO walk at all if their owners dropped the prong/ collars. Am I going to walk up to an owner and tell him "you are abusing your dog because you're walking it with a prong collar"? No way! If I saw it chained in the back yard, YES I WOULD!!!
> I don't like anyone that preaches "My way is the only way". And then try and make me feel bad for using a vibration collar!!! My dog is HARDLY abused!!! Seriously people!! I hear people saying a poodle in a Continental is a form of abuse from some guys. Ludicrous isn't it??
> There are TONS of dogs in the world that need our help, and an owner with a prong collar and a well loved dog is not one of them.
> Enough of this thread for me :act-up:


Here's my take on things; we have a legitimate difference of opinion, as is widely so among dog trainers and owners when it comes to training methods. This isn't about shaming or preaching or belittling anyone; it's about an exchange of views. If the conversation gets under your skin so, I understand and support the wisdom of walking away from it. I have been privy to numerous discussions on e-collar use, it's not at all uncommon for them to roil with emotionality. But if you are able to truly hear what I'm saying here, I hope you will. I am _not_ going to stalk you or anyone else who is using an e-collar or for that matter a prong as they deem fit with their own dog. Similarly, I am_ not _going to be dissuaded from sharing _my view_ and hoping to educate others regarding what I believe to be successful, tried and true, humane training alternatives. I am_ totally_ cool with agreeing to disagree. I just want to be clear that while I disagree with using the e-collar, I understand your strong feelings on the matter and_ really _don't want to see your blood pressure spike from discussing it. Peace.eace2:


----------



## liljaker

flyingpoodle -- I think your five sentence summary of the events on the thread in question comes off somewhat flippant and really minimizes and diminishes anyone's viewpoint who took the time to research and post, or took the time to post educated information for the other members. We all know that it was not that simple, and everyone who is on this forum knows it was not limited to this thread. I tend to see the big picture and there were lots of moving parts here, no one or two people were responsible for the collision. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine.


----------



## msminnamouse

> As far as the prong collar goes, some dogs would get NO walk at all if their owners dropped the prong/ collars. Am I going to walk up to an owner and tell him "you are abusing your dog because you're walking it with a prong collar"? No way! If I saw it chained in the back yard, YES I WOULD!!!
> I don't like anyone that preaches "My way is the only way". And then try and make me feel bad for using a vibration collar!!! My dog is HARDLY abused!!! Seriously people!! I hear people saying a poodle in a Continental is a form of abuse from some guys. Ludicrous isn't it??
> There are TONS of dogs in the world that need our help, and an owner with a prong collar and a well loved dog is not one of them.
> Enough of this thread for me


Huh? I don't recall seeing anyone make the claim that their way is the only way, anyone trying to make someone feel bad for using a vibration collar (if I came off that way then I apologize, it was not my intent), or that dogs are being abused. You seem to be the only person who brought up abuse.

I'm also confused as to why a civil discussion can't seem to be held. This is a discussion forum, people. People... discuss... things here.

I see some people getting very defensive about the tools and methods they use and I wonder why that is if they feel that they're using and doing the right thing. :dontknow:

I'm proud of my dog harnesses and treat pouches. I have a collection in all different colors. I have fun training and the dogs indicate they enjoy it too. Isn't that why we do what we do? So why the discord when we should be having a discourse? (Lame joke, I know.)


----------



## flyingpoodle

liljaker said:


> flyingpoodle -- I think your five sentence summary of the events on the thread in question comes off somewhat flippant and really minimizes and diminishes anyone's viewpoint who took the time to research and post, or took the time to post educated information for the other members. We all know that it was not that simple, and everyone who is on this forum knows it was not limited to this thread. I tend to see the big picture and there were lots of moving parts here, no one or two people were responsible for the collision. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and this is mine.


I thought people were getting too caught up in the minutia of the thread to see the big picture. I saw a lot of reactivity without a lot of productivity. There have been some other threads on this forum that have had a great deal of emotion but continued to evolve in ways that I found relevant to the thread. 

As you point out, this conversation brought in a lot of issues not germane to the original post, having to do with relationship baggage between members. The e-collar issue was obviously interesting to many people, but was brought up originally as a way to cast aspersions on OP. I would find it polite in forum behavior to take the discussion to another thread at that point.

ETA: I hate to post about posting only and not about threads so to salvage this somewhat- I met a lovely golden doodle today that was dying of lymphoma at age 4! He was so cuddly and sweet though! And the woman's mom was on hospice too, what bad luck


----------



## Countryboy

liljaker said:


> flyingpoodle -- I think your five sentence summary of the events on the thread in question comes off somewhat flippant and really minimizes and diminishes anyone's viewpoint who took the time to research and post, or took the time to post educated information for the other members.


Now that's funny. I thot that fp's take on the thread was bang on. And there looked to be nine other people who Thanked that post. 

The whole thread was hijacked, and not in a productive way, in Post #33. And this hijacker has been backed up by the same members, time after time, in all her little 'digs' at Tortise. This group of members is probably only united only by their antipathy to Tortise and their shameless 'praising' of each other. 'Coz in another thread, their heroine, msminnamouse, was actively bullied by members of this same Cabal. 

Also, and here's where I have trouble with some 'discussions' in this forum, is that some of it's members have no use for honour... or can't remember what they said yesterday. 

"Say what u mean and mean what u say" has always worked for me. But now I understand that the twisting of *my* words by members of The Cabal is not personal. I've realized that they will say whatever is in their mind to advance their own viewpoint. Even if it directly contradicts something that they have said themselves in some other post.

It's hard to 'discuss' issues with people who will spew out words in such a seemingly uncaring fashion. PoodlepowerBC has grown disgusted with the new track of this thread, has said that she will not post here again, and has not. But then, she doesn't strike me as yr usual Drama Queen.

I have said earlier that I can't be bothered reading all the verbiage put out by some members... and that's because u've taught me that all yr words are meaningless. 



msminnamouse said:


> Before I cease posting in this thread, I'll close with a link....


And, in answer to yr other question likjaker, I will defend Tortise, minnamouse, or any other member of this forum who is being bullied . . . . and I probably always will...


----------



## liljaker

CB - I am glad you thought it was "right on" --- and again, everyone can have their opinion. Can't figure out why you are so worked up about this and you seem to really be intent on stirring up more stuff here --- I know folks don't all agree -- so be it.


----------



## liljaker

P.S. -- Maybe you can share insight into who the cabal is for some of the members that don't know???


----------



## msminnamouse

Frank (I hope it's okay I use your name), I appreciate you standing up to bullying. I had forgotten about that. But it works both ways, you know. Some of your comments can be perceived as insulting and bullying also. Responding to people with: "YAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN.........." and the like is insulting.

It's just my opinion but I went back and read through this entire thread and it looked like someone was expressing genuine concern for the psyche of such a young dog on a shock collar. Now, I don't know the OP but when they use corrective training tools and claim that their dog does "stupid things", it can sound alarming to others. 

I can't speak for this person who professed concern about the collar being used on such a young dog, but that's how it looked to me. That they perceived this as something to be concerned about. That's not the same thing as casting aspirations on the OP.

Then the OP willingly continued the topic of shock collars, and not only continued it but attempted to educate readers about them. She fully participated in and encouraged their discussion and contributed fully to the change of topic to her own thread. It was her own choice. 

I've found Tortoise's Youtube channel through one of her other posts. I do see a reason to be concerned. She often poisons cues, her marking isn't timely (sometimes she doesn't even mark), she doesn't speak clearly, rewards incomplete obedience, isn't consistent (like how she alternates between telling the dog off from jumping on her and allowing jumping on her and even sometimes encouraging it, only to later tell the dog off again), and is generally not clear in what she's asking. She has a prong or a choke (can't tell) on a dog reactive dog IN a dog park. This just doesn't make any sense. Being jabbed with prongs or being choked is going to make the dog's association with other dogs more positive and her less defensive some how? The dog, not surprisingly, is giving off a lot of stress signals so she's working the dog over her threshold, which also makes no sense. Talk about setting a dog up for failure. AND endangering the other dogs since Emma is trailing the leash. Emma could run off and attack one of the other dogs at any time. This is very poor judgment and very irresponsible to have a dog aggressive dog in a dog park and even worse, to insist on training a dog aggressive dog in a dog park. The dog isn't even being taught to deal with other dogs, just to ignore them. There's no behavioral adjustment training here, just avoidance of what she should be learning to tolerate.

The man (from another one of her videos) she's working with uses a slip lead unsafely. He repositions it higher on the retriever's neck on the weakest part, directly under the ears and over the fragile hyoid bone and is petting in a very aggressive manner that the dog isn't receptive to, all over the dog's head and he or she looks stressed. This is apparently the man who's directing her in her training. Why would you insist on petting a dog in a manner that they don't enjoy? He doesn't even seem to be aware of this.

Then she coaches a child in training a dog, and despite what she said before about emotion not entering into it, she angrily advises, "Correct that! That is NOT okay!" The dog then cowers, which is lovely to see. 

Her training video where she's working a puppy under distractions is confusing. The guy distracting gives the recall cue. Unless she ONLY wants the dog to mind her and only her, this is conditioning the recall cue to be ignored if anyone else besides her ever needs the dog to come. The puppy isn't even asked to hold a position, only to ignore being called. 

Every dog she personally is working with, besides Emma, looks relaxed and happy and like they're enjoying the training session. But none of them are currently wearing shock collars in her videos or receiving any corrections. 

So all in all, there are many mistakes on HER part. But like any of us, she's human and not perfect. None of us are. I make mistakes, you make mistakes, we all make mistakes. Her training is not perfect but then she uses a shock collar to punish the dog to compensate for her failures. That is not what I'd consider ethically sound. 

If she didn't use the shock collar and fixed her own mistakes, the dogs would then improve and the end result would be better. Without shock. When I mess up when training and the dog makes a mistake, no big deal. I find out where I went wrong and remedy it. This can either be a mistake on my part, like not marking at the precise moment, or simply not using a method that the particular dog I'm working with understands.


----------



## flyingpoodle

Msminnamouse, since many members find what you are saying of interest on the topic of training, I would suggest taking the discussion to a new thread. Perhaps you could find videos of people who give their permission to be critiqued for training purposes? Tortoise seems to be unavailable for comment for a bit.


----------



## msminnamouse

Okay, but I want to mention that A. She posted the link for her YouTube channel on this forum. B. She told us in this thread to look at her videos. C. She posted her videos for public viewing on Youtube. She opened herself up for critique.


----------



## fantastic poodle

liljaker said:


> P.S. -- Maybe you can share insight into who the cabal is for some of the members that don't know???


Cabal


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A cabal is a group of people united in some close design together, usually to promote their private views or interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue. Cabals are sometimes secret societies composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship. The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy. The use of this term usually carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence; a cabal is more evil and selective than, say, a faction, which is simply selfish; because of this negative connotation, few organizations use the term to refer to themselves or their internal subdivisions. Amongst the exceptions is Discordianism, in which the term is used to refer to an identifiable group within the Discordian religion.


The term took on its present meaning from a group of ministers of King Charles II of England (Sir Thomas Clifford, Lord Arlington, the Duke of Buckingham, Lord Ashley, and Lord Lauderdale), whose initial letters coincidentally spelled CABAL, and who were the signatories of the public Treaty of Dover that allied England to France in a prospective war against the Netherlands.[1] However, the Cabal Ministry they formed can hardly be seen as such; the Scot Lauderdale was not much involved in English governance at all, while the Catholic ministers of the Cabal (Clifford and Arlington) were never much in sympathy with the Protestants (Buckingham and Ashley). Nor did Buckingham and Ashley get on very well with each other. Thus the "Cabal Ministry" never really unified in its members' aims and sympathies, and fell apart by 1672; Lord Ashley, who became Earl of Shaftesbury, later became one of Charles II's fiercest opponents. The theory that the word originated as an acronym from the names of the group of ministers is a folk etymology, although the coincidence was noted at the time and could possibly have popularized its use. The group, who came to prominence after the fall of Charles's first prime minister, Lord Clarendon, in 1667, was rather called the Cabal because of its secretiveness and lack of responsibility to the "Country party" then run out of power.

Use in relation to computers and Usenet

A Cabal room in use at Valve Software. 
During the rise of Usenet, the term was used as a semi-ironic description of the efforts of people to maintain some order over the chaotic, anarchic Usenet community (see backbone cabal). As in this specific case, references to an alleged cabal often fall within the realm of conspiracy theory.

Valve Software, the creators of games such as Half-Life, use "Cabal Rooms" when working on projects such as new games or bug fixes. Each cabal was usually dedicated to one very specific area of the game which meant the cabal had to meet very regularly, in the case of Half-Life the members had to meet four days a week, six hours a day for five months.[2]

These rooms usually comprise 10-15 people, many computers and design technologies, and at least one whiteboard. (See adjacent image). As mentioned in the article "The Enemy Within" by Mark Bowden, published in the June 2010 edition of The Atlantic, the Conficker Cabal is a team of specialists working to defeat the Conficker worm. The worm is believed to have infected an estimated 1.5 million machines worldwide. The Conficker Cabal includes Rodney Joffey, vice president and chief technologist for Neustar, Adre' M. DiMono, one of the world's foremost authorities on Botnets, and Philip Porras who operates a large network of honeypots for SRI International. Despite the negative connotations associated with the term "Cabal," the name has stuck with this particular team of "good-guy geeks." [3]

Current usage

The following are two recent examples of the use of the word 'cabal'.

The first came in an accusation by former United States Secretary of State Colin Powell's chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, who claimed that the Bush administration's foreign policy was run by a "Cheney-Rumsfeld cabal" implying a sinister intent;[4]

The second was by former British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who has rallied the world community to support UN sanctions against Zimbabwe, denouncing the regime's leaders as a "criminal cabal".[5]

Famous crokinole player and analyst, Eric Miltenburg of Toronto referred to the "Eagan-Fitzgerald Cabal" of the 1940s, when the two families shared their playing secrets with each other.[6]

Currently on the Comedy Central program The Daily Show, the phrase "a global cabal of Jews" is referenced from time to time, as a spoof on antisemitic conspiracy theories.

The existence or otherwise of cabals has led to the Internet phenomenon originating on Usenet, "TINC" (standing for There Is No Cabal).

Many Masonic conspiracy theories have pictured Freemasonry as an internationalist secret cabal.

See also
■Assassination
■Conspiracy (political)
■Controversies about Opus Dei
■Emergence
■Espionage
■Group narcissism
■Troll (Internet)

Notes

1.^ Durant, Will and Ariel. The Age of Louis XIV. (page 277) New York: Simon And Schuster, 1963.
2.^ "The Cabal" (Gamasutra - Features - The Cabal: Valve’s Design Process For Creating Half-Life) . Gamasutra. Gamasutra. Retrieved 16 September 2011.
3.^ The Enemy Within (The Enemy Within - Mark Bowden - The Atlantic) June, 2010, By Mark Bowden (The Atlantic); Technology
4.^ Former Powell Aide Says Bush Policy Is Run by 'Cabal' (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/21/politics/21wilkerson.html?incamp=article_popular) October 21, 2005, By Brian Knowlton (NYT); Foreign Desk
5.^ Zim led by 'criminal cabal': Africa: Zimbabwe: News24 (http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_2354782,00.html) 
6.^ "Crokinole : Scott Tubman : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive" (Crokinole : Scott Tubman : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive) . Archive.org. Retrieved 2012-03-16.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cabal&oldid=513543278" 


Categories: Secret societies


----------



## liljaker

Thanks fantsticpoodle -- I do know what the term means. I specifically asked countryboy who he keeps referring to as the cabal on this forum, that's all.


----------



## fantastic poodle

I knew from your post that you knew, but since I didnt and had to google it- thought I'd post it for someone who might not. lol . Sometimes ya'll use a lotta big ole words here.

Truth be told I was kinda hoping he'd answer your question.


----------



## liljaker

The Cabal

Well, the person who coined the term did not respond, but another PF member was kind enough to PM me and let me know who is in the Cabal. Guess what? I am a member! Maybe I should play the lotto today!!!


----------



## fantastic poodle

liljaker said:


> The Cabal
> 
> Well, the person who coined the term did not respond, but another PF member was kind enough to PM me and let me know who is in the Cabal. Guess what? I am a member! Maybe I should play the lotto today!!!


Sooo....is that a good thing or a bad thing? I think this thread has got to be the strangest mix of posts I've come across here on the forum. lol

So what next....happiness is being in a cabal t-shirts or bumper stickers?:aetsch:

I personally think what happened here is kind of sad (the outcome, I mean) there are a lot of really good people here with a lot of great perspectives and ideas that benefit all of us in some way. But people are only human after all and things can get out of hand here and there. I hope after all the dust clears people go back and read some of the really good information that was presented here without all the emotional strings attached. It would be a shame if all that was lost.

:angel:


----------



## liljaker

*Signature Pic*

I love the pic of the pups on the clothesline.


----------



## Chagall's mom

Countryboy said:


> "Say what u mean and mean what u say" has always worked for me....And, in answer to yr other question likjaker...





fantastic poodle said:


> ...Truth be told I was kinda hoping he'd answer your question.....


*We shall see!*


fantastic poodle said:


> I hope after all the dust clears people go back and read some of the really good information that was presented here without all the emotional strings attached.


 *Take heart, in my experience that's what usually happens.* :nod:


----------

