# What age to neuter a male Standard?



## Lepski110

Hi All,

I am new to Poodles and new to this forum. I have a Standard male who is a tall, lean 65 lbs at 10 months old. My vet, who neutered my last dog, a Sheltie, at 4 months of age(14 years ago), is recommending we wait until 18 -24 months old to neuter my boy Walter. She says there is some evidence that neutering before a dog is fully mature may be bad for their joints, especially in larger breeds. I am wondering what your experience and wisdom is about this. I am mostly just curious, this is a new concept to me. My Sheltie was only 28 lbs, but he lived more than 13 years with no joint issues until the last year of his life.

Thanks,
Laurie


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## MaryLynn

I believe there are pro's and con's for late or early neutering. My vet likes to do them early, but we have decided to try and wait as long as we can to do the neuter. Unless it comes with some behavioral issue, we believe we're going to neuter around 18 months.


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## cindyreef

I hope more post their experience here. I was wondering the same thing. My boy is almost 8 months and the reason my vet wants to neuter him at 8-9 mths is .....because the sac will be too big and noticable after that????? Anybody hear this before?


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## caroline429

Here is an excellent article that presents a unbiased assessment of recent research on the effect of age at spay/neuter http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Somewhere on the board there is a thread with a link to a podcast from UC Davis (I think) where a study was done on the effects of spaying/neutering before sexual maturation. I took a quick look for it but couldn't find it. Hopefully someone else knows where it is, it is well worth listening to.

Although my experience with this has been with girls, not boys, it might be of some interest. I didn't spay my last two dogs until after they were sexually mature. They were Rottweilers, a breed that's prone to both orthopedic problems and cancer. Both of these conditions are supposed to be positively influenced by late spay/neuter. 

My first Rottie was spayed at 2 1/2 years of age. She lived to 13 1/2, which is a good 4 or 5 years past the average Rottweiler life span. She never had any orthopedic problems of any kind. It was cancer that got her in the end, but at a far later age than it usually occurs in this breed. 

My second girl lived to 11, which is another good lifespan for a Rottweiler. She was spayed after one heat cycle, at one year of age. She didn't have any orthopedic problems but had cancer at the end. With Rottweilers, you just have to accept that they will more than likely die of cancer, it's epidemic in the breed, but if they manage to live past about 8 years of age without getting it, it is something to celebrate.

I think there are many factors that play into a dog's long-term health. Both my Rotties came from responsible breeders who did health screening of their breeding dogs. I fed my girls a homemade diet and made sure they had excellent vet care. I don't think the late spaying alone was responsible for their longer lifespans and lack of orthopedic problems but I'm sure it played a part.

My experience with my Rotties and the latest research made me decide to let Cali go through at least one heat cycle before spaying her. She had her first heat in October and I'll probably get her spayed in January or February.

I think it's important that owners have access to all the latest research before making this decision and it's good to hear that some vets are now passing it on.


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## Ellyisme

I had Hibbert neutered at 5 months. Our vet was most concerned with his teeth. Apparently if you neuter them too early they have problems getting in all their adult teeth. Not sure where this info came from, but I can see the concern.


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## Catriona

cindyreef said:


> I hope more post their experience here. I was wondering the same thing. My boy is almost 8 months and the reason my vet wants to neuter him at 8-9 mths is .....because the sac will be too big and noticable after that????? Anybody hear this before?


I walk a few dogs large dogs that have been neutered at 1 or older, and on one of them the sack was still very noticable for a good few months after, but the skin does shrink and it gets smaller. Probably won't ever become completely flat... but then at least they still look like boys! LOL. 

Ollie was 10/11 months when I got him done, and that was only because he was starting to hump quite a bit, and he's a mini so pretty much mature at that age anyway! If you get no behaviour problems personally I'd wait til 18month, esp with a standard as it does help with their development.


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## Rhett'smom

The thread " Full Grown size" has a lot if the info that might help you.


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## Ladywolfe

I just had my boy neutered. I felt that I couldn't wait to 18 months. He is 11 months now, and although I really never saw any big behavior changes with any other dog that I had neutered or spayed; I saw nearly instant behavior changes in my boy....and all for the better!


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## kukukachoo

cindyreef said:


> I hope more post their experience here. I was wondering the same thing. My boy is almost 8 months and the reason my vet wants to neuter him at 8-9 mths is .....because the sac will be too big and noticable after that????? Anybody hear this before?


My 5-year-old standard was just neutered this year. His sac was saggy for about a month before it was shrunk enough to no longer even notice it. I see this as no reason to base your decision on and surprised your vet doesn't know they'll shrink! 

The only behavior difference I've noticed in him is the humping. When my 3-year-old child would play on the floor, Dude would often try to hump. He quit doing that after the procedure


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## mvhplank

The discussions I've run into on neutering early versus after a year is that waiting until after the bones finish growing will leave you with a dog that has a better likelihood of being a good athlete over the long term. 

Anecdotally, though, I used to run into a lady with a pure Lab in class, and I swear that dog looked like a Lab-bloodhound mix. He had very long legs, was very lean, and the ears were totally dropped and a bit long. He had been neutered very early, at about 3 months. The testosterone the dogs lose has a big effect on how the dog grows and matures.

The choir boys of the Renaissance era who were castrated to preserve their soprano voices were described as having quite different physical features from the "intact" population. Since they never went through puberty, their bone plates did not close normally and they had very long limbs and large rib cages. And yes, their voices remained incredible. Wikipedia can tell you more about castrati than you really want to know.

So, just for me, I'd prefer to wait until maturity to neuter a male dog. I suspect it may not be so critical with females, but I'd rather wait until they're closer to a year old rather than very young.

Neely is just 10 months, but his breeder has asked me to keep him intact for a while, thinking she may want to breed back to him. In the meantime, though, he's living a monk's life ... 

As for a droopy sac--incredibly, some owners are getting prosthetic testicle implants so the dogs look the same! (Neuticles.com)


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## sarahmurphy

copied from their website: Neuticles allows your pet to retain his natural look, self esteem and aids in the trauma associated with altering.

Do you think your dog has trauma associated with neutering?
Do you think your dog cares about his "Natural" look? 
Do you think your dog has self-esteem issues after neutering?

I get that some dogs might have issues with the vet or the car after any procedure done at the vet office. But have you really seen a neutered dog stop licking his bits, or really go searching for the missing balls? 

Do you think any dog really has self esteem issues? 
Do you think dogs look in the mirror and compare themselves to other dogs or the breed standard and say, "Oh, Hey - I'm gonna need a ball job to keep up with that stud over there?" (You know, the one in full AKC show coat, which is just such a "Natural" thing to happen to any dog's coat...???) 

Inquiring minds want to know, here... 

We're waiting till 2, with the dog, unless he becomes a behaviour problem, and I do know more about the castrati than I'd even like... 

insert every crazy emoticon here....

sarah


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## mvhplank

sarahmurphy said:


> ...
> 
> Do you think any dog really has self esteem issues?
> ...
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know, here...
> 
> We're waiting till 2, with the dog, unless he becomes a behaviour problem, and I do know more about the castrati than I'd even like...
> 
> insert every crazy emoticon here....
> 
> sarah


Ha! I _really _think it's a ploy to get men to neuter dogs that really should be snipped. (Sorry guys, but some OTHER men than the wise ones on this forum have problems with neutering their boys). And if that's what it takes, well then, who care if they've been physically "enhanced"?

However, there have been reports of people trying to pass off neutered dogs as intact in the show ring. And some of the newer prosthetics apparently feel more "real."

For an informative and entertaining read, go to Victoria Stillwell's site for a guest column by Dr. Sophia Yin. (I'm a big fan of Dr. Yin, too!)
Testicular Implants in Dogs Make Dr. Yin Wonder? Who?s Looking?|Victoria Stilwell Positively


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

As a breeder, I recommend and ask that my families let a boy mature to 12-18 months before they neuter them. This allows them to grow muscle and bulk and be all they can be. I am 100% against pediatric spay and neuter and feel this sets puppies up for all kinds of potential long term health issues, as well as making the puppies mature to look the same. Boys look like girls...lanky and lean with nothing distinguishing one from the other.


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## mvhplank

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> As a breeder, I recommend and ask that my families let a boy mature to 12-18 months before they neuter them. This allows them to grow muscle and bulk and be all they can be. I am 100% against pediatric spay and neuter and feel this sets puppies up for all kinds of potential long term health issues, as well as making the puppies mature to look the same. Boys look like girls...lanky and lean with nothing distinguishing one from the other.


*Hear, hear!*


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## Quossum

mvhplank said:


> However, there have been reports of people trying to pass off neutered dogs as intact in the show ring. And some of the newer prosthetics apparently feel more "real."


This reminds me of the classic story...

A breeder had a male dog who was the very *picture* of the breed standard...but the dog had one undescended testicle. After some internal debate, and finally deciding that the dog's other attributes had earned him a place in show ring, the breeder got together with an equally slightly unethical vet and a silicone replacement for the missing part was duly implanted.

Come the first show day, however, in the excitement of the event, the young dog's undescended testicle saw fit to join the outside world. The judge's expression as he passed his hand there for the usual cursory touch went suddenly very strange. He paused, copped a second feel...and granted the dog's handler a look of the most upraised brow and most unbridled disdain. "_Three?_" he said, and moved on to the next dog.

It's said neither handler nor breeder could bear to show again after that embarrassing debacle. :aetsch:

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Quossum said:


> This reminds me of the classic story...
> 
> A breeder had a male dog who was the very *picture* of the breed standard...but the dog had one undescended testicle. After some internal debate, and finally deciding that the dog's other attributes had earned him a place in show ring, the breeder got together with an equally slightly unethical vet and a silicone replacement for the missing part was duly implanted.
> 
> Come the first show day, however, in the excitement of the event, the young dog's undescended testicle saw fit to join the outside world. The judge's expression as he passed his hand there for the usual cursory touch went suddenly very strange. He paused, copped a second feel...and granted the dog's handler a look of the most upraised brow and most unbridled disdain. "_Three?_" he said, and moved on to the next dog.
> 
> It's said neither handler nor breeder could bear to show again after that embarrassing debacle. :aetsch:
> 
> --Q


Hahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!! Love it!


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## sweetheartsrodeo

Remington was 2 years when he was neutered. It took almost a year for his "sack" to shrink.... He still has a little tiny bit of saggy skin there, but nothing that you would notice. We waited until he was fully grown..


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## cindyreef

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> Remington was 2 years when he was neutered. It took almost a year for his "sack" to shrink.... He still has a little tiny bit of saggy skin there, but nothing that you would notice. We waited until he was fully grown..



I think this is what my vet was referring to when he said the sac could stay hanging down. It would look worse on my poodle because he is a parti and he is white down there but the sack is black. Very visable. Would the vet not be able to remove some of the sac at the same time I wonder?, because I would really like to wait till he is at least 18 mths.


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## sweetheartsrodeo

cindyreef said:


> I think this is what my vet was referring to when he said the sac could stay hanging down. It would look worse on my poodle because he is a parti and he is white down there but the sack is black. Very visable. Would the vet not be able to remove some of the sac at the same time I wonder?, because I would really like to wait till he is at least 18 mths.


When we neutered Kody, my chinese crested, they removed the entire sack... He was on a good pain killer for a week though, and didn't seem to want to get out of bed for a few days... It is very possible for it to be removed at that time... just a few more stiches.


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## Agidog

Many recent advise is to wait with bitches until post first season and with males until full growth of dog has occurred as well as at least 12 months in small breeds. The main thing to watch with any dog who has been male entire for some time is that they often have such a sudden drop in hormone level and this can cause temperament change. So good idea to have injection of the male desexing drug to lower this testosterone and then neuter after 4 -5 months post injection that way dog has had chance to get use to change in hormonal effect.


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## FireStorm

Our vet wants to wait until Hans is at least a year old. Especially since we are discussing having his stomach tacked at the same time. I waited until my previous dog (a Chow) was a bit over a year old as well.


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## Carrie-e

Ladywolfe said:


> I just had my boy neutered. I felt that I couldn't wait to 18 months. He is 11 months now, and although I really never saw any big behavior changes with any other dog that I had neutered or spayed; I saw nearly instant behavior changes in my boy....and all for the better!


I felt I needed to neuter Billy my spoo at 11 months. He was getting a bit amorous with lady visitors (!) and we had got our little female miniature poodle so we wanted to get him done before she came into heat. We had no problems after doing it,his amorous behaviours stopped and Tia came into heat quite early at 7 months old,so we were very glad we did him when we did. I think you have to take each case individually and do what is best for your situation.


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## SammyG

Reviving the thread.
My puppy is 10 months, and based on research and advice from other poodle owners we are planning to neuter him around 18-24 months, or when his growth plates are closed. We also plan to have his stomach tacked at the same time. 

We have Figo pet insurance and the only drawback to our schedule is having his insurance benefits denied if he is diagnosed with any of the diseases below.

"_You must arrange for your pet to be neutered or spayed prior to its *first birthday*. If you do not comply, no coverage shall apply for illness related to prostate problems, hormonal skin conditions, perianal hernias, testicular tumors, perianal tumors, mammary tumors, uterine and ovarian conditions, birthing, or injury due to fighting, collision with a motor vehicle, or aggressive behavior. This stipulation does not apply if the timing of your pet being spayed or neutered was in conjunction with a veterinarian’s medical recommendation or within sixty (60) days of being adopted._"

So, is it likely that he might develop any of the above because we waited too long? Do you think it's better to neuter him before 12 months so that he is covered in case he gets sick?


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## Viking Queen

SammyG said:


> Reviving the thread.
> My puppy is 10 months, and based on research and advice from other poodle owners we are planning to neuter him around 18-24 months, or when his growth plates are closed. We also plan to have his stomach tacked at the same time.
> 
> We have Figo pet insurance and the only drawback to our schedule is having his insurance benefits denied if he is diagnosed with any of the diseases below.
> 
> "_You must arrange for your pet to be neutered or spayed prior to its *first birthday*. If you do not comply, no coverage shall apply for illness related to prostate problems, hormonal skin conditions, perianal hernias, testicular tumors, perianal tumors, mammary tumors, uterine and ovarian conditions, birthing, or injury due to fighting, collision with a motor vehicle, or aggressive behavior. This stipulation does not apply if the timing of your pet being spayed or neutered was in conjunction with a veterinarian’s medical recommendation or within sixty (60) days of being adopted._"
> 
> So, is it likely that he might develop any of the above because we waited too long? Do you think it's better to neuter him before 12 months so that he is covered in case he gets sick?


If I read that correctly, if your veterinarian recommends waiting to neuter, then that particular clause does not apply. Maybe call them to verify that, then get a note from the vet saying he/she recommends, for medical reasons, that you wait to neuter. Maybe find out if the insurance company needs specific reasons from the vet. Good luck! VQ

Maybe start a brand new thread, asking this question, as some people might not read to the end of this one since it is so old...just a friendly suggestion


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## Verve

I love your vet for being up on the research about this!! I would definitely wait. 

Others can provide links, but the easiest way to see summaries of some of the current research is to google UC Davis early spay neuter dogs. They have come out with a series of interesting studies looking at orthopedic effects, cancer, and importantly for standard poodles, autoimmune disease. 

As for the size of the scrotum, that has to be the dumbest reason for neutering early I've ever heard. I neutered my boy at seven YEARS and the sac still shrank considerably after he was neutered. If it really matters, you can opt for scrotal ablation when you neuter. This is probably going to sound strange, but I've spent so much time around intact dogs at this point that dogs that were neutered early look weird, like something has just been erased from their back ends.


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## Gh VB

Ladywolfe said:


> I just had my boy neutered. I felt that I couldn't wait to 18 months. He is 11 months now, and although I really never saw any big behavior changes with any other dog that I had neutered or spayed; I saw nearly instant behavior changes in my boy....and all for the better!


Could you share what changes you? My boy is 10 months now and I was trying to wait for a couple more months ...


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## PeggyTheParti

Gh VB said:


> Could you share what changes you? My boy is 10 months now and I was trying to wait for a couple more months ...


Hi there - This is a very old thread and the user you’ve replied to hasn’t been back in quite some time. I’d suggest starting a new discussion of this topic so current members can weigh in.

I’m going to close this one to further replies to avoid any confusion.


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