# Health Testing...



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

:scared: is all I can say lol!

Unless they got the hips done before ? A 22-23 months wouldn't greatly distort any results


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> after being bred? I am confused after talking to a breeder who is breeding a dog 2 weeks before their second birthday because they just came into heat. This means that the hips will not be done until after the dog is bred, but before the puppies are born. Isn't the whole point of health testing to decide whether or not the bitch should bred in the first place?
> 
> What if the results come back bad and the pups are already on the way????


They cannot do the hip xray when the dog is pregnant. They very well could have had Pennhip done, which can be done much, much younger.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

As I understood, no health testing has been done yet. Prelims might be done before breeding, but everything else will be done while pregnant. 

I would like to open this up for discussion. Is this something that occurs with any frequency, in general, in the breeding world? As a breeder, if your dog came from a line of health tested dogs, would you feel comfortable going ahead and breeding before doing test results? Is there any ethical or valid reason for doing this? What if waiting until the tests were done meant possibly having to wait close to another year to breed? Is it worth it? What is the right decision?

I doubt many people will respond due to the nature of the topic. However, I am sincerely curious. I am a bit confused as well, because I simply assumed that health testing should always be done before breeding.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> As I understood, no health testing has been done yet. Prelims might be done before breeding, but everything else will be done while pregnant.
> 
> I would like to open this up for discussion. Is this something that occurs with any frequency, in general, in the breeding world? As a breeder, if your dog came from a line of health tested dogs, would you feel comfortable going ahead and breeding before doing test results? Is there any ethical or valid reason for doing this? What if waiting until the tests were done meant possibly having to wait close to another year to breed? Is it worth it? What is the right decision?
> 
> I doubt many people will respond due to the nature of the topic. However, I am sincerely curious. I am a bit confused as well, because I simply assumed that health testing should always be done before breeding.


This is a very good question Chocolatemillie! 
Most genetic testing can be done before the age of two , cheek swab testing  So not sure why NO health testing would have been done , were the parents clear of vW and NE ? Prelims can be done at ten month . Yes I can see this happening if the bitch is mature and ready. I think this is more the "Norm " with males, females really DO need to mature . If the hips are done after a litter, it has to be at least a year for the hip sockets to return to normal. Or so I have been told (Veterinarian). 
Having just lost a very young dog myself  and a HUGE part of my program. I am on both sides of this fence right now. 
If I owned both parents, or really trusted my breeder, then I would feel more confident to do this . 
Does that help ?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

OR

there are breeders who are stepping up/improving their standards/insert your phrase here.

Kay has embraced testing - this weekend I will be going with her to have several of her breeding dogs CERF'd.

Perhaps this breeder is picking up the (in my opinion) required testing? Thyroid panels are not to be done during estrus...does that also included pregnacy?? Hips for females have a time frame too - heats and pregnacy - as Big Red Poodle mentioned.

Yes, I know of males being collected - and bred - before 2. Top names, top lines - no discussion of byb warranted here - though for the most part I do believe the collections are held until after 2... and after testing.

For my girls - I've seen their ancestors - alive and healthy at 13 and 15 and though I am an advocate of health testing - it means as much to me to know the history of their relatives. I think BOTH things are equally important -for what it's worth.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I personally would never buy a puppy from breeding where both parents are not at LEAST 2 years old and fully tested for all tests available (at least not for 1,200 $ and more LOL) 

I actually would prefer repeat breeding since it would signal to me that first breeding produced very nice looking puppies (I am talking about show lines ) and would give me opportunity to have references and see photos and hear about temperament.

I do not see why "missing one heat" is a "tragedy" in any way :noidea:, unless there was a "visiting stud" from the UK who was a Westminster BIS and is traveling back next month never to be seen or "collected" - JMO :becky: 

But , that is what I personally prefer to see.

Are bitches bred before second B-day - yes.
Is it unethical - well... if a bitch is really close to 2 years (like 21-23 mos) and her preliminary was "excellent" than I would not call it "unethical", but would question "why the rush" ??? Especially since so many diseases do not appear till dog is more than 2-3 years old and even older. 

Bitches usually come into heat TWICE a year , so waiting for 6 more mos is not a big deal and all tests would be in and current. 

op:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> I personally would never buy a puppy from breeding where both parents are not at LEAST 2 years old and fully tested for all tests available (at least not for 1,200 $ and more LOL)
> 
> I actually would prefer repeat breeding since it would signal to me that first breeding produced very nice looking puppies (I am talking about show lines ) and would give me opportunity to have references and see photos and hear about temperament.
> 
> ...


Trust me...I'm with ya.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I would think that the best course of action would be to skip the heat.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Obviously I enjoy being a member of the forum...and to a large degree the idealism expressed by many here.

For myself, so much of my idealism has been crashed and burned from what I have learned being as involved as I have been showing (and learning conformation, breeding and history - some fascinating - but SO much of it dirty laundry).

A stud visiting from UK out of a multiple SBIS blah blah blah has the potential to pass as many - perhaps more - health issues that a stud that is from a non show breeder that is being used for the first time...

On one hand you have a person who knows their lines and on another you have a person not being truthful about what is in their line.

Being star blinded is as dangerous as buying a dog from untested lines - any age.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> A stud visiting from UK out of a multiple SBIS blah blah blah has the potential to pass as many - perhaps more - health issues that a stud that is from a non show breeder that is being used for the first time...


LOL - OK than - NO EXCUSE :biggrin:


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

choo got it girl!

hee hee hee

collect it and then pay for storage 'til the time comes  pet breeding or star.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Well......guess I'll stick my foot into this one. I have 1 breeding bitch at this time. I got her when she was older (8 mos), grew coat and had her finished when she was a little over a year. I had all testing done, and had Ofa Prelims done at 22 1/2 mos, she came into season at 23 1/2 mos and was bred. The male had generations of OFA and I had generations of OFA's done on her side of the pedigree. I gave the stud owner the option to bow out, as she was not yet two, but she decided it was close enough and knew her line, so we went ahead with the breeding. I give a good health guarentee, and will honor it if anything come up. 

So, what was the Rush. Well, there wasn't any, however she was finished, had all her testing including the Prelim., and she is a brood bitch. When she is done, she will be placed in a loving home, where she will be doted on and loved for herself, not just one of the pack in my house. She will also be young enough for someone else to have many years enjoying and loving her. Now, don't get me wrong, she is loved and cared for with me, but its not the same as having her own home and companion. This is what breeders have to do in order to make room for the next generation, and as I do not have a kennel, and my dogs live in the house, space is limited. I refuse to collect, and I think it is better for the mental health of the bitch. 

Now, its different for Stud dogs, as you can collect and then wait for testing after two, paying for storage, but I do not know what the viaiability of the sperm collected on a young dog is. Unfortunately, I have seen young dogs that have been bred, and then not pass their testing. What would you then do if you already have pups? If I bred to a young dog, I would at least require a prelim, and expect him to be close to 2 yrs. Again, no rush, but we do not determine when the girls come into heat, and if its close, and the testing was done, and I knew the line, I would probably do it. 

I would probably never use an imported dog, unless I had seen years of its get, as I do not know their lines, and I know they do not do the testing that we do, or if they do, many generations back, they did not. Since I am issuing the guarentee, I am going to have to stand behind the puppy, not the stud owner. Something to think about. Popular does not mean "good."


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

She was 2... 

Or close enough!

Much like my weight on my DL.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

*when to test?*



NOLA Standards said:


> OR
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I thought this would be a good time to ask for an assortment of opinions about the validity of testing Dam and Sire for certain diseases. I have heard proponents for testing for thyroid (or cushings or addisons) etc. because the test will tell if the Sire or Dam are currently inflicted with the illness. But I have also heard those that state that the test is futile because there is no way to genetically test to see if the Sire or Dam are carriers of the disease(s). The only way to lessen the possibility of future litters having the said diseases is to study the pedigree and breed discriminantly.

I have heard some breeders state that they just test, because the more testing they do the better it looks. I personally think what is the point of testing if it does not have a useful purpose.

I would truly appreciate input.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Health Testing.*



ChocolateMillie said:


> Isn't the whole point of health testing to decide whether or not the bitch should bred in the first place?


Hi ChocolateMillie;

This is just my type of question:adore: What is complete Health Testing!

One of the best ways to answer questions about health testing is to direct you to the Versatility in Poodle website at Versatility In Poodles
Click on Health Issues then click VIP's downloadable health information then just one more click
Health Tests *Recommended* by VIP for Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles
Decide on Toy, Mini or Standard and there ya go for what you should test for.

Now as to the timing of testing it also depends on *where* you live. 

Here in Canada I send my hip x-rays to the Ontario Vet College, (OVC), in Guelph, Ontario.

OVC is just a pass or fail. OVC certifies hips at 18 months. It was believed that a fair hip x-ray by Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, (OFA), would be a fail in OVC. Previously I have sent the results to the OFA and paid $50.00 to have them recognize the certification. I have not done this lately. I have also done PennHip on puppies at 6 months before I show them.

Not doing all health testing before breeding is usually a *bad* sign but just as important is *redoing* eyes, blood and SA *within* one year of breeding.

Also, ask to see the paperwork if the breeder doesn`t register OFA. A reputable breeder will explain All about health testing because they are proud they Test.

Off my soapbox now. Rayah


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## DoeValley Poodles (Jun 12, 2010)

Testing for diseases such as thyroid, SA, etc. will tell you if a subclinical dog (not currently showing signs of diease) is affected. There have been plenty tested that an owner assumed a dog would be normal because the animal looked fine but bam came back as affected. Removing these dogs from the breeding pool is why doing this testing is so important.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

*thyroid test*



DoeValley Poodles said:


> Testing for diseases such as thyroid, SA, etc. will tell you if a subclinical dog (not currently showing signs of diease) is affected. There have been plenty tested that an owner assumed a dog would be normal because the animal looked fine but bam came back as affected. Removing these dogs from the breeding pool is why doing this testing is so important.


Thank you Doe Valley
I agree with your assessment. A dog may appear perfectly healthy but be in the early, non-symptomatic, stages of the disease. It is much better to know that your breeding stock is, in fact, healthy before breeding them.

I just wanted others opinions, because as I stated, I have heard of some breeders that no longer test for such diseases because, I think, originally it was thought that a clear result meant that the dog did not carry the disease. Since finding out that there is no such test...many have stopped testing all together.

Personally, for the $100 some odd bucks it costs to test, I would rather do it..for peace of mind.


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