# Why/why not grain free?



## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

I'm thinking ahead about what adult food to switch my puppy to when we move from puppy to adult food, and have some questions about grain free foods. We're feeding him Acana Puppy & Junior right now. I wanted to try Orijen, but it seemed like it was too rich for his system. Also, I'm not interested in trying a raw diet at this point. 

My main question is, if my dog isn't allergic to grains, is there a compelling reason (i.e. evidence) that a grain free food is better for him? I understand that foods with corn and rice aren't desirable, but what about higher quality foods such as Acana that use oats? Is there evidence (for or against) that a high protein, grain free kibble is better for my dog and contributes to greater health/longevity than a moderate protein food with whole grain oats/barley/ or things like lentils? I'm not opposed to a grain-free diet, and the price of the food isn't a factor, I just really want to make an informed decision about the food and don't fully understand why grain-free seems to be such a popular option now. 

Thanks!


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

i was told at mud bay (my favorite pet store) that feeding food with grain would help increase my dogs weight. a little grain doesn't hurt anyone as long as there not allergic but there isnt to much as far as benefits behind it. there is no reason not to feed food with grain (minimal) unless you dont want to from my understanding.


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

I'd be surprised if there is any evidence, not because I think grains are healthy but just because I doubt there are many (if any) long term quality studies of the effects of grains on canine health.

We do know that humans have only been farming grains for about 10,000 years, which is not long at all in evolutionary terms. And Im under the impression that modern wheat is highly genetically altered from what it was just a few years ago anyway. So a diet rich in grains is not what dogs (or people) evolved to eat.

I suspect that Dawnsohma's pet store is correct about grains making dogs gain weight. Grains cause a rise in blood sugar, which causes a rise in insulin, which makes the body store fat.


PS.. Mud Bay? Is that a typo or is that really the name?


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I feed my 9 month old standard puppy 100% grain free Blue Wilderness duck (dry kibble + canned mixed in ) she loves duck, and her poops are way better, healthier lookin too. Her coat color seems deeper and shinier since i put her on this food.... The canned stuff looks and smells like foie gras LOL (just kiddin) something you'd put on a cracker
"she eats better than I do" - hubby says


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

its Mud Bay i believe its only in WA. i love it the people who work there are very knowledgeable about there products. which they carry mostly natural products its nice.

Mud Bay | Natural Dog & Cat Foods | Pet Supply Stores | Seattle, Bellevue, Tacoma - for Healthy Dogs and Cats


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Lou is so cute! What an unusual clip for a poodle. I really like it!


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks Jacamar!!! The haircut was something I had envisioned for quite a while and a friend here at the poodle forum did an amazing job grooming her - I think she is soooo cute too! Big girl though, and she has been playing ruff with me nowadays whew!! Im gettin her back in more training soon  so she calms down some.... please excuse me for posting a picture, but I cant help it when she gets a compliment!! LOL 

Ps. Your Panda is the cutest white poodle puppy i have ever seen!! He glows 

Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Acana offers several grain free recipes, which are less protein rich than Orijen. Why not try those? I don't think they are too much more than their regular recipes.


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

Isn't there something about grain causing inflammation? Or did I make that up? :dontknow:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Dogs are carnivores. Their bodies are designed to digest meat, not grain. Just take a look at their teeth and compare them to say a cow's...big difference. There are of course many other differences but that is the most obvious one. I, personally, prefer to feed my dog what his/her body was designed to eat. 

Now that isn't to say dogs can't digest grain, obviously they can. I just feel that grains aren't an optimal source of nutrition since dogs are not really designed to process them. And there is some evidence that grain can encourage things like yeast overgrowth, allergies, and yes obesity. I don't have any one specific source for that information unfortunately, I've picked that stuff up over the course of my studies in dogs. 

I will also add that in my own personal experience, some dogs do seem to need a little grain in their diet. Dusty is one, he gets lethargic on grain free food..he gets Blue Buffalo Lamb and Rice (I think, mom buys his food), it's fairly low grain and he does well on it. Sam is a very complicated doggie, she has to eat two different foods. Her tummy was having a hard time with the high protein of Innova Prime (very soft poo) and yet if I fed her anything with less protein and fat she lost weight (due to her high metabolism) if we didn't double or triple her intake, (at one point she was eating 5-6 cups of one brand we tried...and she weighs only 40lbs soaking wet!) which put us right back where we started with soft poo since she was taking in too much food. So I mix Innova Prime with Nature's Recipe. Nature's Recipe is a bit higher in grain then BB, but it gets balanced out with Innova Prime. So far, it's working. She has firm poop and is at a good weight. No itchiness or shedding or allergies either. 

All that to say, feed what works best for your dog. Most dogs seem to be healthier after switching to grain free, but as Dusty and Sam prove that is not always the case.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I think a lot of people are opting to go grain free because of allergies. That being said, the ones most likely to 'spark' alllergies are corn, wheat, and soy. and rather than having to put my dog through being itchy I avoid any food with these grains in them! Things like oatmeal or barley are ok though. Also, many dogs have problems with gluten(soft bowel movements) and wheat can be the culprit!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't think there is anything wrong with feeding a high quality food with grain. I would not feed anything with corn or wheat, but wheat because I think the food companies wimp out and use those ingredients for the bulk of the food.

I do feed grain free 'just because' and my dogs are healthy, but Jazz can be a struggle to keep him in weight even though he eats well and a lot. He is active and a big, growing puppy. I have thought about switching him to something with grain for better weight gain, but am trying some full fat plain yoghurt in his food and fish oil plus a high calorie canned to top everything off first. 

There are some great foods out there with grain in them.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

Storm gets Advance puppy food...

These are the ingredients:

Ingredients



Chicken, Corn Gluten, Chicken Tallow, Rice, Corn, Sorghum, Chicken Digest, Tuna, Beet Pulp, Sunflower Oil, Iodised Salt, Potassium Chloride, Inulin, Choline Chloride, Turkey, Taurine, Plant Extracts (Tomato Powder (source of Lycopene), Marigold Meal (source of Lutein)), Vitamin E, Dicalcium Phosphate, Zinc Sulphate, Vitamin C, Citric Acid, Colostrum, Antioxidants, Beta-Carotene, Iron Sulphate, Copper Sulphate, Vitamin B5, Vitamin A, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B12, Potassium Iodide, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B3, Selenium, Vitamin B6, Vitamin B9.


from this site:

Puppy Plus Rehydratable Toy Small Breed, Chicken 3kg - ADVANCE


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

Oh, and he also get a chicken neck or wing daily..


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Lene.......You may want to google 'THE DOG FOOD PROJECT' & click on 'ingredients to avoid' a few of the ingredients in the food you are feeding are kinda questionable IMO......But the chicken wings & necks are a good thing!


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Technically, dogs are omnivores. There is no question they prefer meat but they are fully capable of digesting and extracting nutrition from grains. Dogs can even do well on properly-formulated vegetarian diets, unlike cats which are obligate carnivores and must eat meat to survive. 

Grains have gotten a bad rap as being useless fillers in dog foods. Since they supply vitamins, minerals and some essential amino acids, they are definitely more than fillers. Like everything else, some grains are better than others. It's not so much the type of grain, but more the quality of the grain. A whole grain, like brown rice, with its nutrition intact is preferable to leftover scraps, such as brewer's rice.

Unless there are allergies or medical conditions that demand a certain type of diet, I think most dogs can go either way and do well as long as the overall diet is of good quality. As someone else pointed out, the best diet for your dog is the one that suits him best, whether it contains grains or not.


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## Ruso (Nov 16, 2012)

I think (it's a very personal opinion, but based on some experience) that a lot of dogs do great on grain free and some do great on foods with quality grain like oats. It's a bit like humans; there are coeliac people and persons on-the-limit: I'm not coeliac, but with no doubt grains like wheat and corn upset my digestive system and I feel better in an almost grain free diet (for example, I have rice with no problems but no wheat)
Based on my dogs and a lot of friends' doggies, many of them are healthy and superb on Orijen (no grains), but some can't tolerate it and are much better on Acana (steelcut oats) (I mention this brand because is the most used here between the doggie people I know and a couple of vets)
Maybe it's just a coincidence, but toy dogs or small breeds are the ones who do best on grain free, and bigger breeds or mixes tend to be better on the grain versions (I insist that this is just based on my personal experience)


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## Lea (Oct 20, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> Acana offers several grain free recipes, which are less protein rich than Orijen. Why not try those? I don't think they are too much more than their regular recipes.


We switched to Acana from orijen because of the less protein and his poops were like soft serve ice cream. Once we switched all was much better. 

Murphy wanted nothing to do with food with grains. Blah. Tasteless and smells bland. He basically turned his nose up and walked away. 

Acana and orijen are made by the same company. You can't go wrong with leaving grains out if you can. Although food with grains can be less expensive its because grains are more like a filler. 

Keep the food simple!


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Calling something a filler implies it has no nutritional value. Grains contribute essential amino acids, vitamins, minerals and fiber to a dog's diet. If anyone is interested in seeing just what type of nutrients are in common grains, you can look up nutrient analyses at the USDA food lists Foods List Grains also provide a quick source of energy and have a protein-sparing effect. I'm not advocating for or against grains, I'm just presenting facts. 

I've had dogs for the past 40 years and I've fed raw, I've fed cooked and I've fed kibble. I've fed diets without grains and diets with grains. I have always believed in feeding whatever type of diet my dog did best on. My only criteria was that the diet be of high quality and properly balanced.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

I switched my guys to blue buffalo wilderness grain free to see if Omar's flatulence would get better and it has. He hardly farts at all anymore. So he must be a dog who had grain issues. The other kids have not had any noticeable change except their poop is a bit smaller and firmer. They all seem a bit perkier on the grain free.


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## AngelsMommy (Nov 3, 2012)

I can relate to the dogs are different and so are people. I cannot eat barley, it is a no no for me. But I can do wheat, but finding foods without barley is worse than trying to be gluten free. Which I have done. I find that Angel does well on the prey model but I do get that there are those who maintain that dogs are omnivores, and some are more adapted to that than others. But I think that as a whole more dogs are closer to carnivore than omnivore. But I stopped feeding manufactured foods when I found out more of what they put into it and I was horrified and refused to give my baby anything like that. I realize that there are good manufacturers but I was unsure of who you could trust so I decided that I would rather know that my baby got human grade food. 

I know that as a snack Angel loves granny smith apples, but not gala or delicious. She eats peanut butter in her Satin Ball treats that I make for her. I also add enough good fats and oils and things like flaxseed. She gets small amounts of things that are vegetable based and some oats on a daily basis. But that is not figured into her 8o-10-10 that I use to figure what she needs. 80% muscle meat 10% organ meat and 10% bones. I know that all cannot do what I do, and that is fine. For me it is about keeping Angel around for as long as I can and as healthy as I can. This is what works for her, but I don't say that others should eat this way, only that it is an option. 


Hope that you find what you like for your baby.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

My dogs don't do well on grain inclusive kibbles. I tried Acana Chicken and Burbank Potato (contains steel cut oats), highly recommended by a pet food store. It gave my boxer, Dempsey, AWFUL gas (and boxers don't need any help in that area, trust me...), and it gave Dempsey and Potsie eye boogers. My westie mix, Maddie, is allergic to ALL grains, potatoes, alfalfa, and even grass eating protein sources (yeah, she's a lot of fun to feed...NOT!). I've found that my boxer can't eat a high protein kibble (30% or higher) either - soft poos, and you got it, more gas.

What works for Potsie and the boxer is Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream (would love to feed Acana Pacifica but too much $$). Maddie, the westie mix allergy dog, eats California Natural Salmon and Peas (extremely LID, which she needs).

As others have said, every dog is different in what works for them. I think dogs are obligate carnivores; i.e., they'll only eat grains if meat isn't available. They can survive on grains, but do they thrive on them?


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