# Newbie here



## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I would not go forward. This sounds very sketchy and that price is extremely low for a toy poodle puppy. There's a saying on the forum, pay the breeder or pay the vet. That doesn't mean you should pay ridiculously high prices either, but anything lower than $1500 for a toy poodle is probably a scam. And even then there's a lot of dog sale scams going right now. I would go through the breeder list on the forum because at least those people are likely to be actually breeders and not scammers cashing in on the pandemic puppy boom.

Please make sure any breeder you consider is doing the appropriate genetic health testing for the breed. It is preferable to meet the puppy and at least the mom at the place they are living, but the pandemic does make this more difficult. However reputable breeders do not meet up in parking lots or anywhere like that. Some breeders will ship, but the price you've been quoted also seems low.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Here is a helpful thread to get you started in your search, @Cap0504: 🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩

That is very kind of you to help your mother-in-law.  Just let her know that puppy searches can take time and toy puppy searches can take more time than most, because toy poodles have very small litters. They also tend to be the most expensive of the three poodle varieties. The prices you’ve been quoted, as @Misteline said, are a major red flag. Much more worrisome than the lack of reviews.

Ethical breeders rarely sell enough puppies annually to accumulate many online reviews, nor do they bother much with marketing. Their dogs are generally in high demand due to good word of mouth.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

If it sounds to good to be true probably isn't.
Find a local poodle club and get recommendations through there.
My beloved $750 toy poodle cost me $25,000 in medical bills.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. I was unable to find this breeder using a google search. Share the link here if you’d like us to take a look, @Cap0504.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Okay, I think I found them and there is nothing on that Facebook page suggesting this is even a legitimate business.

How have you been corresponding with them? I hope you haven’t shared any personal information or made a deposit.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A reverse google image search of some of their photos:


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## Meisha (Sep 21, 2020)

100% scam. People can be so cruel.


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## Cap0504 (Jan 11, 2022)

PeggyTheParti said:


> P.S. I was unable to find this breeder using a google search. Share the link here if you’d like us to take a look, @Cap0504.


I had a friend send me a screenshot from Facebook and I found them and private message them 


PeggyTheParti said:


> Okay, I think I found them and there is nothing on that Facebook page suggesting this is even a legitimate business.
> 
> How have you been corresponding with them? I hope you haven’t shared any personal information or made a deposit.


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## Cap0504 (Jan 11, 2022)

Cap0504 said:


> I had a friend send me a screenshot from Facebook and I found them and private message them


New to this but I had a friend send me a screenshot from Facebook. I can’t figure how to upload pic here or I would.


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## Cap0504 (Jan 11, 2022)




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## Cap0504 (Jan 11, 2022)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Okay, I think I found them and there is nothing on that Facebook page suggesting this is even a legitimate business.
> 
> How have you been corresponding with them? I hope you haven’t shared any personal information or made a deposit.


I was an idiot and private message them before I looked at the page. I was trying to get all the information to tell my in-laws. I am from the south we always say yes ma’am, what caught my eye is they kept saying “Madam”. Also told me they would have the puppy fixed BUT didn’t want extra money for them to have dog fixed.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi, Welcome!

We're so glad you found PF before you got any further in this. Since it sounds like this is all new to you, I'll add a Tips list for you to help you know what to look for in a quality, conscientious breeder. 

There's a number of breeders out there who have learned the language to mimic a quality, conscientious breeder's practices without actually following them.

Some breeders will write a clause in their contract requiring desexing by a certain age before they'll release the registration papers. This is within their rights if not ideal for the new family, but, depending on the age required for desexing, may not be in the pup's best interests.
Current science suggests that waiting til a pup is fully physically mature so the growth and other hormone systems are intact and able to complete their job for the maturing pup _is_ in the pup's best interest.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breedings are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*
There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
The PRA test is a DNA test. The other two are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally, and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle. 

If you tell us what part of the country you or she is in, we can try to offer some personal recommendations. I'll stress here that if spending over $1500 (and that's just getting the pup) isn't realistic for you or her, then please look into poodle specific rescues. 
Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org) 

Even if purebred, very few poodles that end up in rescue come originally from breeders who put their poodles and the poodle breed first. Quality breeders will put in the contract that if the new family is unable to keep that dog for any reason, that the poodle be returned to them so they can find a safe and loving home again for the puppy they raised first. There will be some owner surrenders but I can't imagine any conscientious breeder sending any "retired" dogs to an open rescue. Those are almost without fail from volume breeders who don't put those dogs first. 

Keep asking questions!


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