# 7 month old standard was put to rest today, breeder offered a new pup but we have concerns! Plz help



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I am so sorry for your loss. If the kidney failure is attributed to inherited genetics, I would steer away from another pup from the same parentage. Is the breeder aware of any genetic relation to the disorder?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m so sorry this bad thing happened to you and your pup. 

I’m with Tom - Was the illness genetic? Could your breeder have somehow screened for it or caught the early warning signs? If the answers to those questions are no, and this is a breeder you feel comfortable with—with proven, health-tested breeding lines, and well-cared-for poodles—I would be inclined to take them up on their very generous offer.

But.....if this is a backyard breeder or puppy broker situation, and they just want to “make the problem go away” by throwing another puppy at you, I’d walk.

We’ve got lots of great threads on Poodle Forum, about how to evaluate a breeder. This is also a good resource: Standard Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm sorry for your loss. Juvenile renal disease is thought to be genetic. There is no screening available at this time, although research is ongoing. 

If this is a good, reputable breeder, then getting pup from a different pairing is an option.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm so sad for you all. It's never easy to say goodbye. 

The above advice is all excellent. All I have to add is to ask if this would be from a current litter or more of a when you're ready, whether that means right now or down the road? 

Everyone needs to grieve and handles grief differently. Do this as you and your family need.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

So sorry for your loss


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## PsychoBunny (Jun 12, 2021)

So sad to hear this. So sorry


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

Unless the breeder could prove that the puppy in question doesn't have (and won't develop) the same condition, i personally wouldn't take a puppy from the same parentage as the other one. I would even be iffy on taking a puppy from the same gene pool (IE same mom or dad) in all honesty. 

I don't know enough about genetics. I don't know if what your puppy had was even a genetic problem, i don't know if it could have been passed from one parent or both if it was, i don't know if it could have just been a fluke. Which, yes, is possible. What did the vet/s think it was? Has the breeder mentioned any other puppies (from this litter or previous litters) with this particular problem (or any problem that could be related)? 

A good breeder will keep record of any issues reported by previous or present owners of their puppies, so they can avoid breeding dogs that produce pups with these issues in the future. Not all genetic problems can be screened for prior to breeding so this is the next best thing, unfortunately. A good breeder would work with you to make this as right as they possibly can - wether than be a refund (which in all honesty is rare) or replacement puppy (most common). 

Out of curiosity, whereabouts in NY is this breeder? You don't have to say who it is if you don't want to, but i live in NY. My boys came from two different breeders (who know each other and have paired dogs in the past) and i know of at least two others via my clients (i'm a dog groomer).

I'm very sorry for your loss. I couldn't imagine... My Limerick is seven months old. So sad....


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so sorry, (((hugs)))


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm so sorry for you, your family, and your dear little girl.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

What a terrible thing to happen. If you get a pup from the same breeder will you worry more than if you go with an entirely new line of dogs?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

What an awful way to start the holidays; you must be devastated. I'm glad your breeder had a health guarantee and is honoring it. I also understand why you might be uncertain about accepting the offer. Nobody wants to sign up to repeat that kind of heartbreak.

Juvenile Renal Disease is known to occur in poodles on occasion. It's a complicated question as to whether your breeder dropped the ball. My understanding is that JRD can run in families as a recessive trait. (Infections and exposure to toxins can also knock out the kidneys. I assume, since you mention the kidneys were malformed, your vet felt the issue was something congenital or inherited.) I think there have been some attempts to bring out a genetic test a while back, but people felt the results weren't accurate enough to be helpful. So, your breeder could not have prevented the problem by testing the dam. It's harder to say whether your breeder made a bad choice in pairing your pup's sire and dam; it all depends on what she was in a position to know regarding the fate of other near relatives. Recessives can hide over many generations. It might just be horrible bad luck that two carriers ended up coming together. 

I would be curious to know what she plans to do now that she knows she has been working with two carriers. She would greatly reduce the chances of a repeat problem by choosing a sire with no history of the problem in his immediate kin.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

What you are describing sounds like renal hypoplasia which can be but not always inherited from the parents, I wouldn't accept another puppy


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## Sole0102 (Nov 23, 2020)

I am so sorry for your loss 😥. I just wanted to add a comment and I know that ultimately you will decide what's best for you and your family.

My sister had a Cane Corso Italian Mastiff called Tiny (yes, really 🤷‍♀️) who passed away at 4 years of age. He came from one of the top breeders in the U.K and was a beautiful example of the breed. He was always happy and healthy then one day just wasn't well. It turned out that he only had one kidney and it was underdeveloped and he was in kidney failure. Nobody ever knew that this was the case because he was always healthy. The vet said they believed that only love kept him going for so long. 

It wasn't the breeders fault and no other puppies from his litter or other litter had the same issue. Sometimes it's just a one off x


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

cowpony said:


> Juvenile Renal Disease is known to occur in poodles on occasion. My understanding is that JRD can run in families as a recessive trait. (Infections and exposure to toxins can also knock out the kidneys. I assume, since you mention the kidneys were malformed, your vet felt the issue was something congenital or inherited.) I think there have been some attempts to bring out a genetic test a while back, but people felt the results weren't accurate enough to be helpful. So, your breeder could not have prevented the problem by testing the dam. It's harder to say whether your breeder made a bad choice in pairing your pup's sire and dam; it all depends on what she was in a position to know regarding the fate of other near relatives. Recessives can hide over many generations. It might just be horrible bad luck that two carriers ended up coming together.


My first standard poodle, Ch. Jaylee Charley Black, had JRD. It did not really affect him until he was about 3-4 years old. He would get sick when stressed. My vet and I thought it was tonsillitis, so we decided to remove his tonsils. He died during the operation. My vet was frantic - he knew I had turned down a enormous sum of money from someone who wanted to buy that dog and that I loved him passionately. Because he could not understand why the dog died, he asked me if he could do an autopsy and I readily agreed. That's when he found that both kidneys were small; one of them was so small as to probably be non-functional. 

I don't know of any other dogs related to him who had a problem, but perhaps most were not stressed by travel and dog shows. That's not to say he did not enjoy dog shows - like most poodles he loved to be admired. He had 12 full siblings from two different litters, none of whom ever seemed to have any health problems. Most of them were shown, but only one other brother, Ch. Jaylee Banacek, was shown internationally. I have checked on some of the dogs in the next generation and did not hear of any others who were affected.


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## BuzzysMom1 (Dec 23, 2020)

This makes me terribly sad, so sorry for your loss


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Johanna said:


> My first standard poodle, Ch. Jaylee Charley Black, had JRD. It did not really affect him until he was about 3-4 years old. He would get sick when stressed. My vet and I thought it was tonsillitis, so we decided to remove his tonsils. He died during the operation. My vet was frantic - he knew I had turned down a enormous sum of money from someone who wanted to buy that dog and that I loved him passionately. Because he could not understand why the dog died, he asked me if he could do an autopsy and I readily agreed. That's when he found that both kidneys were small; one of them was so small as to probably be non-functional.
> 
> I don't know of any other dogs related to him who had a problem, but perhaps most were not stressed by travel and dog shows. That's not to say he did not enjoy dog shows - like most poodles he loved to be admired. He had 12 full siblings from two different litters, none of whom ever seemed to have any health problems. Most of them were shown, but only one other brother, Ch. Jaylee Banacek, was shown internationally. I have checked on some of the dogs in the next generation and did not hear of any others who were affected.


Glad you posted your experience. It seems like JRD is one of those problems that occasionally pops up, but it's definitely not on everyone's radar the way hip dysplasia, bloat, and some of the skin diseases are. I guess that's a good thing; people would talk about it more if a lot of dogs were dying young.


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## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

I don't know nearly enough about dogs and genetics to comment. But I did want to say that I am so sorry for your loss-- what a heartbreak. I hope that you're able to take the time to grieve and you find another sweet fur babe in the circumstances that feel good to you.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Great advice given by our more experienced poodle people. Just wanted to send my condolences--I'm so very sorry for your loss :'(


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Heartfelt condolences on your sudden loss. It sounds like it’s a rare condition, but that doesn’t help with your situation or your grief.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m sorry for your loss, this must be hard.

Have you had this conversation with your vet ? I would think their professional opinion would be the best place to start.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Condolences! 

If you do accept another puppy from this breeder, assuming a different pairing and no other puppies have kidney problems, I'd be curious whether an ultrasound exam could determine whether the puppy's kidneys are normal. (I gotta say that I've never heard of that, though.) If so, maybe the breeder could pay for that.


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## Robinski (Aug 23, 2021)

Sorry for your loss…you had your pup long enough to bond…I would hesitate to take another pup from that breeder…does your contract include a refund if there’s a serious health problem? I recommend starting with The Poodle Club of America to search for an AKC Breeder of Merit, when you’re ready to try again. I found my toy puppy this way after losing my precious toy, bred by a backyard breeder, after 11 years to mitral valve disease. My new pup’s parents’ health records, including genetic testing and other recommended reports on health, were provided.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

TK9NY said:


> Unless the breeder could prove that the puppy in question doesn't have (and won't develop) the same condition, i personally wouldn't take a puppy from the same parentage as the other one. I would even be iffy on taking a puppy from the same gene pool (IE same mom or dad) in all honesty.
> 
> I don't know enough about genetics. I don't know if what your puppy had was even a genetic problem, i don't know if it could have been passed from one parent or both if it was, i don't know if it could have just been a fluke. Which, yes, is possible. What did the vet/s think it was? Has the breeder mentioned any other puppies (from this litter or previous litters) with this particular problem (or any problem that could be related)?
> 
> ...


 I too wonder who/where this breeder is... I'm in NY as well and I'm not aware of many breeders in the state, at least responsible ones that are showing/titling in conformation and/or performance, doing all health testing, temperament testing for placement, ENS, etc. If you want to PM us the name of the breeder we could see if anyone is aware of issues in their lines. Which is why when I looked for every one of the 3 Standards I have now I went out of state for the breeders I chose to work with.


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