# I need help with training



## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

I have a few questions about training my spoo. she does well with the basics and will walk great on a leash and when she is off leash outside she has amazing recall. my problem is at home she will still do all the basics but she will take her time coming when called. also we are working on some more advanced training and I was wondering if I should start using treats to train her. With the basic stuff she just did it with praise, no treat required. when I tried to so the more advanced stuff (touch command) she needed a treat to understand how to do it. I have never used any treat training with her or any other dog but how do I get her to do it with out treats? also I don't want to always need a treat to get her to a command thanks for you help


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## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

also if we end up using treats what do you recommend


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Here are a few excellent resources:

Dog Star Daily - especially the training textbook from the menu along the top
Kikopup - she uses clickers, but any marker (e.g., "yes" or "good") used the same way will give similar results
Sophia Yin - she has a few resources specifically addressing recall

About using food, not all dogs will work for praise. Some dogs will work for praise alone in non-distracting settings, but not out in the real world or pets might be good for simple behaviors, but as difficulty increases they need a better payout. If food (or any reinforcement) is used correctly you won't need to use it forever (although you should expect to offer some type of reward occasionally). 

The basic idea is that when you're first teaching a cue, reinforce correct behaviors heavily (what works as a reinforcer will depend on your dog). As the dog learns, reinforcement can be reduced _until you increase difficulty (e.g., add distractions or duration or distance_, then you up the reinforcement again. 

As the dog learns and his behavior becomes more reliable, reinforcement can be placed on a variable interval schedule. That means that he gets a reward after 4 or 8 or 2 or 10 correct trials. It's the same idea that slot machines are based on - you never know when you might win, so you keep playing because next time could be the jackpot.

You also don't want the reward to become a bribe. In general, rewards should be out of sight and not given until after the correct behavior is performed (and if you're still at the early learning stage, after you've marked/clicked the correct behavior). For example, if I'm teaching sit and we're past the luring stage, here's the sequence of events:

"Puppy, sit"
puppy's butt hits the floor
click / mark
reach for & deliver treat/toy

If you use a marker, you'll need to classically condition the dog to associate the clicker / marker word with the reward. So, click & treat several times. You'll know the association has been formed when you click and the dog looks for the treat. Also, if you click, you must treat (even if the click was an accident).

This is a fairly decent (but long) overview of classical and operant conditioning as they relate to dog training: 
An Animal Trainer's Introduction To Operant and Classical Conditioning
This is a little shorter
A Beginner's Guide to Operant Conditioning
This page addresses common issues people have with using food as a reinforcer: TRAINING DOGS WITH FOOD


> I'LL HAVE TO KEEP FOOD ON ME ALL THE TIME
> 
> If the training isn't done correctly from the beginning, the dog's level of obedience will be dependent on whatever tools are used. When used correctly, rewards come after the dog has performed correctly, so the dog doesn't have to see the reward before complying. This means other rewards can be introduced to the training process once the dog has learned the new behavior.





> LIFE REWARDS: Food, Access & Attention
> 
> Finding alternate motivators for your dog is one of the keys to getting your dog to work for rewards other than food. Whatever your dog likes, it probably falls under the categories of Food, Access or Attention.
> 
> ...


More on food and training: To Treat or Not To Treat? Training Reliable Behaviors

For specific treats, what does your dog like? If we're working on routine things with limited distractions, I use her kibble (usually her dinner). New or more complex cues or with more distractions, we use hot dogs, dehydrated liver, sometimes leftovers from my husband's dinner, Zukes minis, and homemade treats. Depending on what we're learning, I've also used her squeaky ball / fetch and life rewards (e.g., wait until you're released and we'll go out to play). Some dogs love tug and a tug toy is fairly easy to use in a variety of situations. Find the things your dog loves and use them as reinforcers.

Ack! I didn't mean to write a book. Sorry.


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## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

That is great information thank you so much for all your help


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

cookieface, you said everything I would have very well. I wanted also to ask how old is the dog. There are some phases where their learning seems to plateau a bit (e.g. adolescence). Also if you look at Ian Dunbar's material you will see that he recommends a sit or a down from distance as an emergency command (rather than a recall, so you don't end up recalling the dog across a busy street for example).


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Miyas Mommy said:


> That is great information thank you so much for all your help


Hope you find something helpful in there.  The 4PawsU site seems to have a number of good articles.



lily cd re said:


> cookieface, you said everything I would have very well. I wanted also to ask how old is the dog. There are some phases where their learning seems to plateau a bit (e.g. adolescence). Also if you look at Ian Dunbar's material you will see that he recommends a sit or a down from distance as an emergency command (rather than a recall, so you don't end up recalling the dog across a busy street for example).


Thanks for the compliment. I've admired your training advice. I suspect, though, that you would have used fewer words. I tend to be verbose. :redface:


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## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> cookieface, you said everything I would have very well. I wanted also to ask how old is the dog. There are some phases where their learning seems to plateau a bit (e.g. adolescence). Also if you look at Ian Dunbar's material you will see that he recommends a sit or a down from distance as an emergency command (rather than a recall, so you don't end up recalling the dog across a busy street for example).


She just turned 1 on July 26th.


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## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

also I have one other question... is it normal for a Spoo to mainly listen to only one person (me) and to always be right by me I love that she loves to be by me but is it normal? I have only ever had Pit bulls before Miya and they were very independent and like to alone. thanks again for all you help


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Miya is just finishing an age where they can be a little stubborn, so you should see better responses to your efforts soon. Poodles do love to be near their people. I just finished grooming Lily and even though I am sure she was tired of being on the table she is still migrating around the house with me while I clean up and stuff.

We are a two person and two dog household. Lily is my dog and Peeves belongs to my BF, although we both co-own both of them. Lily definitely has an affinity for being near me and Peeves for BF. However both of them listen to both of us and they both seek attention and affection from both of us. I think they both have a special warm spot for BF since he was home with them when they were puppies up to about 5-6 months old (they really bonded to him as pups), then I was home with them for their first summer just before they each turned one (during their defiant adolescence). Now though I am the one who works with them in performance sports, so they both enjoy training with me.

See cookieface, I can go on at length. Thank you in return for the compliment.

Miya's Mommy you are doing just fine I am sure. You are just adjusting to a breed that has a very different temperament to your previous dog(s). Welcome to poodles. They are a fun and interesting challenge, not so stubborn as a terrier, but very smart.


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## Miyas Mommy (Oct 22, 2012)

thank you so much for all your help. she is very different that for sure but she is great and I absolutely love her. I feel like she is smarter then me sometimes lol thanks again for all your help I am looking forward to trying some of the things I have read from you suggestions


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Katie generally sticks close to me or my husband (in the house, at least). If I'm in the kitchen, she's either on her bed or in the next room; if I'm in the bedroom, she's on the bed with me; if I go to the laundry room, she's at least waiting at the top of the steps for me if not following me downstairs. When she doesn't follow me around, I start to worry. 

Also, she generally listens to whomever has her attention. It can be me, my husband, his mom, my 4-year-old niece. Certainly there are times when she doesn't seem to listen to anyone, but she's a diva and will do just about anything for attention.

Sounds like you're doing great with your pup! Let us know how you're doing.


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