# Is my puppy show quality?



## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

Given the parents structure, and the photos provided I would say yes. It would be helpful if we could see some photos of her standing. Hopefully someone more experienced than me will weigh in @Johanna.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> I’m new to showing so I checked out the AKC requirements of structure. My puppy’s father is a Russian import show dog and she most resembles him (at least I think). I think her muzzle is alright and may grow out with age. Though I’m concerned her eyes are too round, or hopefully she’s always widening them when I’m around.
> 
> Attached below are photos of my dog and the AKC guideline illustrations for: muzzle, eyes, and ears.
> View attachment 496016
> ...


You’ll need to consult with her breeder to find out what they think and if you have rights to show. To get a better assessment from experienced folks online, provide a stacked photo of your dog from the side and front. There’s no way to tell from the photos of the parents as one is down as a puppy with no titles and the second is an informal photo that doesn’t show off structure. Also in the photo btw mom is very cow hocked, you’ll want to watch out for that in your puppy.


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Just because her sire was a show dog doesn't mean she will be show quality. For the best evaluation, you would want someone to have their hands on her and go over her for you. But, if you want opinions here on her structure, you need to post a photo with her stacked like this. It's the best way for people to be able to evaluate her from a photo.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I participated in Ring training at the local club. Different judges assessed Matteo every week. It was really helpful. Maybe you can find out if your local club has anything similar


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> I’m new to showing so I checked out the AKC requirements of structure. My puppy’s father is a Russian import show dog and she most resembles him (at least I think). I think her muzzle is alright and may grow out with age. Though I’m concerned her eyes are too round, or hopefully she’s always widening them when I’m around.


{Edited by moderator to fix broken formatting; no content changed}


What does her breeder think? Usually a breeder is delighted when one of their pups are going to be shown. You don't normally need permission to show a dog in ring, however if you purchased her with a contract that says she must be spayed then you would need permission from the breeder. Your best bet is to go to you local poodle club to get advise where they can do a hands on assessment. Good luck


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

@EVpoodle @RylieJames @Phaz23
Yes I know her father being in show doesn’t essentially make her show quality. Hopefully these photos are alright? Sorry for the bad lighting, but she’s a solid brown. I’ll put a random photo of her in good lighting as to show the color better.
























*Random photos as color reference:*















[/QUOTE]


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

Though I’d love to have commentary on her based on these full bodies, I was most concerned with her eyes not being ideal


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> Though I’d love to have commentary on her based on these full bodies, I was most concerned with her eyes not being ideal


Her eyes seem a bit wide-set for my liking. As to the shape... that's less of an issue for me because that can be "cheated" with good banding and a bubble.

The full body photos aren't from the best angles for evaluation. You want to take the photo looking straight on at the side of the dog. We're trying to evaluate the dog's angles, and when the photo is taken from an angle (from the front, or looking down at the dog), it can distort things. So, evaluating based off these photos isn't as "accurate" so to speak. With that disclaimer, I'll give you my initial impressions.

She's not stacked very well. She isn't getting her rear legs out from underneath her. But, it looks like she doesn't have good rear angulation, which means a proper stack may feel uncomfortable for her. She also looks like she might be a little high in the rear. And she looks like she has a low tail set. I like how her front legs are set nicely under her. But, it looks like she doesn't have a good lay-back of shoulder. And I think a more upright-shoulder makes her want to carry her head more forward instead of upright. With all this, keep in mind this age isn't the best for evaluation. And a hands-on evaluation is best. 

What are your plans for showing? Are you wanting to show OH? In AKC or UKC? Do you have a mentor?


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

Okay, I’m sorry about the angles. I’ve never done this before although I’m very keen to learn. 
I’m sure my plans aren’t good enough to be novice lol, as I’ve got no idea about what goes on behind closed doors for dog shows. I’ve only worked with chickens till now.
Anyways my plan is to show her for her first couple years and then retire her into service/therapy. Last part is for whichever fits my needs as my career is working with special needs children. I’m getting her registered AKC as soon as I’ve got the time to look at it. I don’t have a mentor, that sounds like it’d be a tremendous help. I’ve asked show related trainers nearby for some pointers, but I’m told to watch the Westminster dog show.
Sorry again for being so inexperienced!


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

I can’t comment on her structure but showing a poodle is an enormous investment in time and money and grooming. If she isn’t already AKC registered, did you purchase her from a reputable, preservation breeder? Was she imported (I can’t figure out from initial post, I do see father is Russian import)? Poodles are a very difficult breed to show for a person new to showing. Even poodles with experienced owner-handlers I’ve heard have an uphill battle in the AKC breed ring against $$$$, impeccable breeding, top quality pro handlers, and extensive coat care. Also, what does your purchase contact require, was she sold as a pet? Then she was determined by the breeder to not be show quality. Finally, dogs in the show ring cannot have been spayed or neutered - so you will have the responsibility to keep her from getting pregnant unintentionally and living with a bitch in season, not everyone is comfortable with that aspect.

If you purchased her as a pet and for therapy work, I would focus on those endeavors over showing.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Or show in venues other than conformation. Obedience, rally, agility, scentwork, many other options. Any of those would be a solid foundation for service or therapy work.


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> Okay, I’m sorry about the angles. I’ve never done this before although I’m very keen to learn.
> I’m sure my plans aren’t good enough to be novice lol, as I’ve got no idea about what goes on behind closed doors for dog shows. I’ve only worked with chickens till now.
> Anyways my plan is to show her for her first couple years and then retire her into service/therapy. Last part is for whichever fits my needs as my career is working with special needs children. I’m getting her registered AKC as soon as I’ve got the time to look at it. I don’t have a mentor, that sounds like it’d be a tremendous help. I’ve asked show related trainers nearby for some pointers, but I’m told to watch the Westminster dog show.
> Sorry again for being so inexperienced!


No need to apologize. We all start somewhere. No one was born knowing how to show dogs lol. There is definitely a learning process to it. And it's not easy. In fact, it's a lot of work. But, it can be a lot of fun. I'd be happy to help you, if you'd like. 

The first thing you would need to do is fill out her AKC registration and get her paperwork. In order to show her in AKC conformation, she needs to be on "full registration." Do you know what the terms were with her breeder? If she's on "limited" its typically an indication that her breeder evaluated her and determined she wasn't a show prospect. In that case, you could show her in UKC. UKC is a much easier venue to show in and is typically better for those starting out. You can show in any clip and no hair products are used. They also have an altered class for pets that are spayed/neutered.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

@Poodle2021 Seeing as I’ve had poodles and large dogs for years I’m pretty sure I know grooming costs quite a bit. I know training costs a lot (service dogs alone are 11k and two years of work minimum). It’s easy to find out a bunch of negative aspects that someone unequipped couldn’t dream of handling. Yep I know. It’s harder to find resources though, and honestly I’m just trying to have fun in something I can feel pride in. This happens to fit criteria that cater to my interests, so why not? Besides _all_ the reasons you listed lol.

That aside she’s from this breeder and is not a Russian import. I’m not fixing her, and I’ve got experience with unfixed males and females. Big dogs, little dogs, etc.
I guess I can divulge that she’s allowed by the breeder to go into breeding and show if I choose to do so.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

@RylieJames Thanks! Yeah, I’d like to try my hand at it and see how far I can go. I like to work hard at difficult interests and all that.

She’s not limited and I’ve got the paperwork to register her asap. If I wanted to breed her I just need to do some expensive paperwork provided by the people I purchased her from. I had a chat with the breeder about my interests with a dog before purchasing, so she knew of my goals with show and my career with service. I won’t be fixing her so no worries about that.

I’d like to look into any kind of resources to learn and I’ll take them by the pounds


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> @RylieJames Thanks! Yeah, I’d like to try my hand at it and see how far I can go. I like to work hard at difficult interests and all that.
> 
> She’s not limited and I’ve got the paperwork to register her asap. If I wanted to breed her I just need to do some expensive paperwork provided by the people I purchased her from. I had a chat with the breeder about my interests with a dog before purchasing, so she knew of my goals with show and my career with service. I won’t be fixing her so no worries about that.
> 
> I’d like to look into any kind of resources to learn and I’ll take them by the pounds


I think she could be a great dog to learn with. However, I don't believe she will be competitive in the show ring. That doesn't mean you shouldn't show her--it could be a great experience for you and her. It's a wonderful way for you two to bond. And it is a way for you to learn the ropes and how to show. Sometimes people get started with a dog that isn't competitive and then after some experience and once they know what they want in a show dog, they buy another dog from a show breeder.

As to the work involved--one of the first things you want to start working on is coat care. They require a lot of coat maintenance. And it is very different than going to a pet groomer. That is why people that show poodles either learn to groom themselves or hire a handler. She needs to be bathed every week. I prefer Why B*tch B3 shampoo and highly recommend it. You'll need to dry her with an hv dryer first and then put her under a stand dryer while you stretch dry the coat. Clipper her face, feet, and sanitary. Don't scissor or trim any other hair though.

You also need to refrain from using any collars or harnesses on her. They damage coat hair. There are a few brands (Quilted Hound and Pants for Dogs) that make coat saving collars that can be used when necessary for walks. But even these collars need to be kept to an absolute minimum. 

As her coat gets longer, you'll need to start putting bands in her topknot. And then eventually down her neck. I highly recommend Lainee Ltd. bands. You can buy them online or at shows. 

There is a great online "University" that teaches poodle coat maintenance and grooming for the show ring. It's taught by Allison Foley. It's called Leading Edge Dog Show Academy--she has a for-pay website and a free youtube channel. You can buy a monthly subscription to her website (about $40/month) to have access to all her videos. Or, you can buy each video individually or in group packages. I bought her "Poodle University" package. I believe it was about $400. It is a valuable resource. 

If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. Also, I live in Florida and travel to most shows in Florida and the southeast. I'd be happy to meet up with you at a show if you're there.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

RylieJames said:


> I think she could be a great dog to learn with. However, I don't believe she will be competitive in the show ring. That doesn't mean you shouldn't show her--it could be a great experience for you and her. It's a wonderful way for you two to bond. And it is a way for you to learn the ropes and how to show. Sometimes people get started with a dog that isn't competitive and then after some experience and once they know what they want in a show dog, they buy another dog from a show breeder.
> 
> As to the work involved--one of the first things you want to start working on is coat care. They require a lot of coat maintenance. And it is very different than going to a pet groomer. That is why people that show poodles either learn to groom themselves or hire a handler. She needs to be bathed every week. I prefer Why B*tch B3 shampoo and highly recommend it. You'll need to dry her with an hv dryer first and then put her under a stand dryer while you stretch dry the coat. Clipper her face, feet, and sanitary. Don't scissor or trim any other hair though.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for all this information, everything is a big eye opener. I agree with what you say about my dog being my initial experience in non-competitive show. I think it’ll be a rewarding experience.
I’ll be sure to contact you if I’m able to learn enough to ask questions lol.

I’d love to meet you at a show sometime! Do you only go to AKC hosted, or are there others you attend?


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

@RylieJames also I’m sure this is obvious, but should I avoid putting her in the pool? I’ve put her in once because I’m considering using it as physical therapy for her. She’s been in a kennel her whole life till now, so a trainer and my vet her muscles are thinned out in the back. I’ve heard good results when putting senior dogs in the bath to walk, with the friction and everything.

If it’s not possible to bath her well enough afterward to prevent damage, I understand and will just stick to walking.


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> @RylieJames also I’m sure this is obvious, but should I avoid putting her in the pool? I’ve put her in once because I’m considering using it as physical therapy for her. She’s been in a kennel her whole life till now, so a trainer and my vet her muscles are thinned out in the back. I’ve heard good results when putting senior dogs in the bath to walk, with the friction and everything.
> 
> If it’s not possible to bath her well enough afterward to prevent damage, I understand and will just stick to walking.


Swimming in the pool is good for her. I would just keep it to days when you can bathe/dry her afterwards. If you let her air dry after the pool, her coat can mat.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> @RylieJames Thanks! Yeah, I’d like to try my hand at it and see how far I can go. I like to work hard at difficult interests and all that.
> 
> She’s not limited and I’ve got the paperwork to register her asap. If I wanted to breed her I just need to do some expensive paperwork provided by the people I purchased her from. I had a chat with the breeder about my interests with a dog before purchasing, so she knew of my goals with show and my career with service. I won’t be fixing her so no worries about that.
> 
> I’d like to look into any kind of resources to learn and I’ll take them by the pounds


It sounds as if the breeder provide a limited registration form. If they said they would charge for paperwork required to show, that is highly unethical and quite suspicious. I agree with Rylie James' and Mufar42's statements about getting some knowledgeable people to evaluate her.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Johanna said:


> It sounds as if the breeder provide a limited registration form. If they said they would charge for paperwork required to show, that is highly unethical and quite suspicious. I agree with Rylie James' and Mufar42's statements about getting some knowledgeable people to evaluate her.


Ooops - I did not see the entry that says she does not have limited registration.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> It sounds as if the breeder provide a limited registration form. If they said they would charge for paperwork required to show, that is highly unethical and quite suspicious. I agree with Rylie James' and Mufar42's statements about getting some knowledgeable people to evaluate her.


Oh okay my bad. Where do you think I can seek someone out to evaluate her? @Johanna


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> Oh okay my bad. Where do you think I can seek someone out to evaluate her? @Johanna


If there is a poodle club nearby, that would be the place to ask for help. The next possibility would be an all-breed club, especially if there is a member who has poodles. You can look for nearby poodle clubs on the Poodle Club of America web site: poodleclubofamerica.org. On their main page, click on "All About Poodles" and select "Search for Local Clubs/Breeders". Select your state. If there is a poodle club in your state, it will be listed.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> If there is a poodle club nearby, that would be the place to ask for help. The next possibility would be an all-breed club, especially if there is a member who has poodles. You can look for nearby poodle clubs on the Poodle Club of America web site: poodleclubofamerica.org. On their main page, click on "All About Poodles" and select "Search for Local Clubs/Breeders". Select your state. If there is a poodle club in your state, it will be listed.


I’m in a very French bulldog centric city lol so that’s the only specific dog clubs nearby. I’ll definitely jump onto all-breed though, thank you!


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> I’m in a very French bulldog centric city lol so that’s the only specific dog clubs nearby. I’ll definitely jump onto all-breed though, thank you!


Mind if I ask where you're located?


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

RylieJames said:


> Mind if I ask where you're located?


I’m in Miami Florida. By the way, as a side note, which shows do you recommend checking out?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

There are two poodle clubs in Florida: Orlando Poodle Club and Tampa Bay Poodle Club. In Miami, there is the Greater Miami Dog Club. These all have web sites.


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## Chanelpawpaw (5 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> There are two poodle clubs in Florida: Orlando Poodle Club and Tampa Bay Poodle Club. In Miami, there is the Greater Miami Dog Club. These all have web sites.


@Johanna Ah sorry to make you go hunting for me. Thank you so much! I’m eager to drive up in my “dog mom” cap and get involved in these communities


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## RylieJames (Feb 3, 2016)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> I’m in Miami Florida. By the way, as a side note, which shows do you recommend checking out?


I like to use showdays.info to look for shows. Infodog is another popular option. With infodog, you can search for shows by state, or by proximity to your zip code. Looks like there aren't going to be any in South Florida until February. So, it would be a bit of a drive to some of the upcoming shows. You have Plant City. And then several weeks of Ocala. When you're looking for shows, you want to look for a show "type" that is "AB," which stands for all breed. This means all breeds can enter. If it says "S" it means it is a specialty--which means it is limited to only that breed and you can only enter it if it is a poodle specialty. 

As for the poodle clubs, as Johanna mentioned, we only have two in Florida. I'm a member of Tampa Bay Poodle Club--we have members all over and not just in Tampa. So, joining in the future is something you may want to consider if you get more involved.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

My dog's sire was a Grand Champion and #5 dog in the Nation when I purchased her. Her Dam was a Champion a producer of champions. We had high hopes. But she ended up with a Liver problem that caused a stunted growth. She showed once. She took first in Movement and the judge said she had the best movement on a toy poodle she had seen in many years. She won her breed, and was Reserve Best in Show. But her breeder felt with how tiny she was she wouldn't be able to compete well. It was disappointing but Im glad we didn't spend all the money to try to show and finish her. And with her liver problem we never would have bred her anyways. (Not that we would have without the liver problem).


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Chanelpawpaw said:


> I’m new to showing so I checked out the AKC requirements of structure. My puppy’s father is a Russian import show dog and she most resembles him (at least I think). I think her muzzle is alright and may grow out with age. Though I’m concerned her eyes are too round, or hopefully she’s always widening them when I’m around.


Chanelpawpaw,

Do some research on this forum on the "breeder" you have purchased your puppy from. They are here on this forum, for the most part, AND especially as far as respected/reputable/preservation breeders, considered a well-known "mill" breeder. They have MULTIPLE litters on the ground at any given time which is a HUGE red flag. They are breeding from dogs that mostly are not titled in anything, never mind in upper levels in conformation and/or performance as most responsible breeders do. 

If the "breeder" did, in fact, sell her to you on full registration from the get-go, that is another red flag. Responsible breeders sell pups on limited registrations/co-ownerships because they want the dogs finished to breed and/or performance titles as well as having completed all health testing to CHIC standards before they would think of giving full registration for breeding purposes.....

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