# Feet turn out on stacking?



## tortoise

My puppy turns out his front feet when stacking, but not when walking. Has anyone trained a dog to angle toes-in a bit when stacking to correct an apparently comfortable turning out? I'd like to try training it, but I don't want to waste time or stress out my dog by asking for something impossible.


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## CharismaticMillie

tortoise said:


> My puppy turns out his front feet when stacking, but not when walking. Has anyone trained a dog to angle toes-in a bit when stacking to correct an apparently comfortable turning out? I'd like to try training it, but I don't want to waste time or stress out my dog by asking for something impossible.


This is caused structurally by an incorrect front assembly. You can hand stack your dog so that the feet are properly facing forward.


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## tortoise

Do you know of any photos or diagrams that could help me in the future if I'm picking another poodle out? He didn't start turning out until the last month or two. If I want a show dog in the future, I'd rather not wait 6 months to find out if his shoulder/chest area is correct. Is there anything I could identify as "this pup's chest is not right and his feet will turn out"?

His hind feet have had a slight turn out always that has not changed. It is there when he walks too.


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## Keithsomething

it can definitely be trained in...a method I wouldn't suggest >.> but used by some pros is to step on the outside of the dogs feet as soon as its done moving and stops to stack, I'm not sure HOW effective a training technique that is but some people swear by it.


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## CharismaticMillie

tortoise said:


> Do you know of any photos or diagrams that could help me in the future if I'm picking another poodle out? He didn't start turning out until the last month or two. If I want a show dog in the future, I'd rather not wait 6 months to find out if his shoulder/chest area is correct. Is there anything I could identify as "this pup's chest is not right and his feet will turn out"?
> 
> His hind feet have had a slight turn out always that has not changed. It is there when he walks too.


Hind feet turning out is called cow hocks. Whether or not the front feet turn out can depend on various aspects of the front assembly. But if you have a reasonably correct front with good depth and breadth of chest and forechest both behind and in front of the front legs as well as reasonably correct front angles, this should not happen. Hopefully someone with experience breeding or picking out show prospects can weigh in about how soon you can tell if a puppy's front assembly will be correct enough for proper foot placement and what type of changes can occur before maturity.


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## tortoise

I shaved off the rest of his pattern and tried to get some photos of his chest. Maybe you can give me some insight if this is sloppy-feet or a structure problem?


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## tortoise

Jet Chest Profile by tortoise11, on Flickr


Jet Chest Front by tortoise11, on Flickr


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## mom24doggies

From what I see ( correct me if I'm wrong pro's!) he is straight in the front, both his shoulder layback and upper arm, he's ewe necked, and his shoulder placement is too far forward. Plus he lacks depth of chest. I'm assuming it's mainly his lack of forechest and depth of chest, that is causing the toeing out? 

Trev also toes out just a bit, when I stack him I just correct it manually and he leaves it that way. Or I place my hand between his front legs, pushing his elbows out as I set him down, then his feet automatically face forward. HTH!


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## tortoise

I think you're right on. This is the first time I've seen his neck with no crest.

This is helpful: Standard Poodle Structure Explained

Does this cut disguise his faults?


Jet's Conti by tortoise11, on Flickr

There is like no hair at all on his chest - so how would that help a with depth of chest?


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## mom24doggies

tortoise said:


> I think you're right on. This is the first time I've seen his neck with no crest.
> 
> This is helpful: Standard Poodle Structure Explained
> 
> Does this cut disguise his faults?
> 
> 
> Jet's Conti by tortoise11, on Flickr
> 
> There is like no hair at all on his chest - so how would that help a with depth of chest?


 IMO, yes. It hides his faults pretty well! 

To create depth of chest, you would have to leave more coat on the bottom of his chest, the part between his front legs. To create a forechest, you will want to leave just a bit on his front (but take it to the skin just below his "v" when you clip his face...you want to try to disguise his ewe neck. And don't leave too much since he's long in the body.) and cut way into the front of his legs and where they join the body. I'm going to try to get a hold of my pics from Trev's last haircut, it shows what I'm talking about. Trev also lacks depth and forechest, although he does not have an ewe neck.


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## CharismaticMillie

tortoise said:


> I think you're right on. This is the first time I've seen his neck with no crest.
> 
> This is helpful: Standard Poodle Structure Explained
> 
> Does this cut disguise his faults?
> 
> 
> Jet's Conti by tortoise11, on Flickr
> 
> 
> There is like no hair at all on his chest - so how would that help a with depth of chest?


The very existence of a continental jacket makes it appear like his chest comes down to his elbows. When the front of the jacket is brushed out and sprayed for show, it will also create the look of a full front. You can only do so much disguising of a front that is too far forward, like many are in standards, because the position of the front legs viewed from the side will tell the truth. 

His hind legs look fine. His front legs are probably turning out due to lack of chest depth particularly in front and because his front angles are a little steep.


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## mom24doggies

https://attachment.fbsbx.com/messag...QD3w9xpB8nF4plF6aHlAvN9NLFmCf091vuYDW42zr5pCQ. Hopefully this shows up...

This is Trev in a Modern, I groomed him up about 3 weeks ago. See what I'm talking about with the chest? I still need to fix that a bit, more needs to come off underneath to match the line in front but you get the idea. 

A quick rundown of Trev's faults: lacks depth of chest, a little short on neck (although amazing for a mini from what I understand), slightly low tail set, and a bit straight in the stifle. His front leg also could be set under him better. There are others of course but those are the ones that I have to be really careful of when grooming him. Hair is a wonderful thing though! I think Jet would look great in a Modern. Actually, most poodles do...it covers a lot of faults and accentuates strong points. 


ETA: I hope that photo will show up...It does for me.


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## NOLA Standards

And before the comment comes up... grooming is NOT hiding the fault.

Movement tells.

And the judge goes over the dog, and evaluates the front assembly, hands on.

Just sidelining (hey it's opening night NFL!) the structure, grooming, why show argument from the hut hut!


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## mom24doggies

NOLA Standards said:


> And before the comment comes up... grooming is NOT hiding the fault.
> 
> Movement tells.
> 
> And the judge goes over the dog, and evaluates the front assembly, hands on.
> 
> Just sidelining (hey it's opening night NFL!) the structure, grooming, why show argument from the hut hut!


 I'm not sure where this comes into our discussion? We were talking strictly about appearances here, not actual showing. Unless I misunderstood something...


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## tortoise

He's 15.25" at 9 months old and scheduled for neuter - no showing in his future. Grooming competitions - maybe, depending on my health - and he should be stacked as well as possible for that.

I could not see your photo of the Modern cut. I'm not confident in the differences betwen the AKC puppy cut and the modern, but I like it and it's on my someday list for grooming him. 

ChM - I'm curious if there is physical therapy of sorts to help with his chest? He' young and I'm concerned that he could be less-sound. He carries a 4 - 5 pound backpack occassionally and he wears a 2 - 4 pound weighted vest to keep him conditioned for the days he wears the pack. He wears an approx 2 pound pack frequently. He's getting more stress on his joints than a normal mpoo. If there is anything I can do to protect his joints I will try it. 

Do you think it is severe enough to have elbow prelims done when he is neutered? I intend to OFA him (a health guarantee isn't much value if I can't prove his health and it provides helpful information to the breeder) but I didn't see a reason to do prelims.

I don't have perspective if this is a common fault in poo's or if this is a pretty serious structure issue.


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## mom24doggies

tortoise said:


> He's 15.25" at 9 months old and scheduled for neuter - no showing in his future. Grooming competitions - maybe, depending on my health - and he should be stacked as well as possible for that.
> 
> I could not see your photo of the Modern cut. I'm not confident in the differences betwen the AKC puppy cut and the modern, but I like it and it's on my someday list for grooming him.
> 
> ChM - I'm curious if there is physical therapy of sorts to help with his chest? He' young and I'm concerned that he could be less-sound. He carries a 4 - 5 pound backpack occassionally and he wears a 2 - 4 pound weighted vest to keep him conditioned for the days he wears the pack. He wears an approx 2 pound pack frequently. He's getting more stress on his joints than a normal mpoo. If there is anything I can do to protect his joints I will try it.
> 
> Do you think it is severe enough to have elbow prelims done when he is neutered? I intend to OFA him (a health guarantee isn't much value if I can't prove his health and it provides helpful information to the breeder) but I didn't see a reason to do prelims.
> 
> I don't have perspective if this is a common fault in poo's or if this is a pretty serious structure issue.


 Darn, sorry, I'll try again. A modern is basically a much much tighter puppy trim with a scissored topknot. Or a very stylized lamb trim, depending on how you do it and look at it! Some modern trims are VERY full and others less so. I'm confidant you could do it. 

If you want him to develop more chest, I would recommend not neutering him just yet. I've heard that it helps, yet another reason I regret neutering Trev so young. Jet is young also, so he will probably get a bit more chest as he matures. Trev did. He isn't narrow, just shallow. I haven't observed any issues with him being that way soundness wise, but CM could probably tell you more about that.  

I do know that lacking depth of chest is common in poodles of all sizes. You can't tell really by just looking at them in the ring, (or at least I can't!) but a lot of them are lacking. Sometimes if you watch carefully as the judge puts his hand between the front legs to check you can see it. Perhaps there are other ways to tell, but many times the dogs are stacked so well and then they have all that coat my inexperienced eye just can't see it, I have to feel it.


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## mom24doggies

OK, this picture should show up. 

ETA: I don't like his underline, it's too steep and doesn't match the line of his chest. I also think his withers need to come down more. And he has a teeny bulge right below his point of rump. Other than that and the fact that he needs more coat on his legs and possibly a little more on his TK and I'm very happy.


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## Doggroomer812

*feet turning out*

My boy will toe out too if he does a lazy stack. If we just kind of coast into stack and his head is willing nilly looking side to side it is worse. If I make him rock forward onto and stand on his toes he stands perfectly straight. If he is outside and stands up in response to something exciting or scary, he stands straight. So as long as I keep his attention forward, his head forward, he will stand straight.


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## CharismaticMillie

tortoise said:


> ChM - I'm curious if there is physical therapy of sorts to help with his chest? He' young and I'm concerned that he could be less-sound. He carries a 4 - 5 pound backpack occassionally and he wears a 2 - 4 pound weighted vest to keep him conditioned for the days he wears the pack. He wears an approx 2 pound pack frequently. He's getting more stress on his joints than a normal mpoo. If there is anything I can do to protect his joints I will try it.
> 
> Do you think it is severe enough to have elbow prelims done when he is neutered? I intend to OFA him (a health guarantee isn't much value if I can't prove his health and it provides helpful information to the breeder) but I didn't see a reason to do prelims.
> 
> I don't have perspective if this is a common fault in poo's or if this is a pretty serious structure issue.


No, I don't think you need to be worried since you're not breeding him. Toe-ing out is a pretty common structural fault. Physical therapy will not change the construction of the dog.  Just relax.


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## liljaker

Even if he wasn't being neutered, I didn't realize you could show a mini over 15"???


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## mom24doggies

liljaker said:


> Even if he wasn't being neutered, I didn't realize you could show a mini over 15"???


 Not AKC, but you can UKC.


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## liljaker

Ahhh, ok. Thanks.


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## tortoise

liljaker said:


> Even if he wasn't being neutered, I didn't realize you could show a mini over 15"???


You can't. He's not a show dog, but I will probably use him in grooming compeition so he needs a good stack (if it is possible with his structure).


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## cavon

mom24doggies said:


> Not AKC, but you can UKC.


Not if someone notices it and calls for a wicket measure. If the dog measures more than 15 inches and is entered as a mini, he would be disqualified.

the UKC has the same height restrictions as the AKC and CKC


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