# How Reliable is Volhard Testing?



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it's widely used. but not everyone thinks it makes sense to test young puppies for future personality/temperament:



https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...personality-tests-predict-adult-dog-behaviors


(look up stanley coren if not familiar with his work on dog psychology. i don't hold him up as a god, either, though.)


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

If the puppy was shivering in fear and running away from you I would take that as more of a sign of the puppy’s temperament.


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

For information purposes this is my dog's test (done by an experienced tester)













































My dog is an extremely outgoing and friendly dog and has been from the start. He is calm in the house but excitable and high energy outside of the house. He's not a huge food dog, but trains pretty well with food. He's pretty laid back about me doing things to him (dealing with his feet, flipping him on his side, etc)


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I do believe in this test. I’ve done it and it worked for me. I got exactly the dog I wanted.

I am different than many people as I don’t necessarily like my dog to be friendly with strangers. I don’t mind at all if a dog doesn’t come to me when I meet them the first time. It means this dog won’t go to strangers, but it doesn’t mean she won’t love her family.

I like the fact that she doesn’t struggle when restrained. It means she will be a docile puppy. And the fact that she follows you. She felt more safe with you than without, even though she wouldn’t go to you. Did she have her tail between her legs at any time ?

Do you mind that she doesn’t retrieve ? Do you mind that she might be a little shy with strangers ?

The thing to be concerned about is her ability to thrive in an environment with children and what comes with it (screaming, jumping, ect). This would be a deal breaker for me. You don’t want a dog who’s going to be miserable in your house because it doesn’t have the necessary confidence to deal with children.

I think she looks a little scared on the picture but she sure is lovely. You have a big decision to make !


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

in case you decide to look further, kamann miniatures in brier wa is advertising a litter. i boy, 2 girls, cream, apricot and white. i have no idea which one is apricot.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

She is very cute. I don’t know much about the Volhard test, but I agree a pup shivering and shying away is not a good sign. When I brought my mini pup home at 8 weeks, every pup in the litter of five was vying for our attention. Not one of them shyed away from us.

Gracie is now 14 weeks and has continued to be a confident, outgoing pup, although she does have a high energy level. Our kids are grown, but she met my four year old grand niece when she was ten weeks old, and was not intimidated at all, and actively engaged with her. 

I think your concerns are valid.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Testing aside for a moment, how did she behave when testing wasn't happening? Did she play with her siblings? What was she like just being herself? 
Nature alone doesn't form character.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Oh boy, PuppyDream, she is a VERY cute puppy, but I would walk away. I think the Volhard is extremely accurate. My dogs would probably score the same on the measures now at almost 4 years and 2.5 years as they did at 49 days old. Maizie scored all 3s and Frosty was a combo of mostly 3s with a 2 or 4 thrown in. I personally like dogs who are super outgoing and friendly--never met a stranger--and that's exactly what I got with my dogs. A shy dog is a special needs dog IMHO. Ones that are more middle of the road are much better for families. And while some breeders and owners say there's a difference in the sexes, it's much more individual temperament differences vs. sex differences.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

She's very cute, and I agree with Rose. I also wonder if this very young prospective puppy ever had any experience with fetching or being around non-family members. Has it been kenneled most of it's short life, or allowed to walk around the kitchen and interact with the family? Those could be factors to explain it's fear of strangers and new demands on it.

Bella in 2017 was a 7 weeks old when I met her and was like an infant to me. I didn't pick her up until she was 10-1/2 weeks old. I got Sachii at the very end of January this year and he was 12 weeks old. 

Neither had a clue about fetching. That changed _fast_. I use mini-tennis balls and still play fetch daily. They each caught on and love the game, along with tug of war. Doggy daycare by my neighbor/friend also ensured they'd be with a human when I was at work, and they love people. 

*I will say that the shivering* when you touched her does bother me, but she's only 7 weeks old which is barely out of the infant stage. I would take her for a walk next week and the week after if the owner allows her outside, and offer her a treat to see if she loosens up and relaxes with you while not checking out the environment. If she's still shaking when you touch or hold her at 9 weeks for no discernible reason, i.e., hearing an ambulance, a strange large dog in proximity, etc, I'd be strongly inclined to pass.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i just saw a very interesting program involving a 3-yr old shelter dog that was not very fond of people. a war vet with ptsd needed a velcro dog. the trainer took the dog and spent a great deal of time alone with it to build trust. then began a serious program of training heel, sit, down, that led to using the vet's blanket and establishing that as the place to which the dog would go. eventually when the dog and vet met, the dog immediately put its head in the vet's lap. 

i'm not saying this can or can't be done with this puppy. but it seems difficult to distinguish nature from nurture at times. imo, the issue for puppy dream may be whether family circumstances permit trying to make a family member of a seemingly shy dog feasible.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

My breeder has someone come and do the Volhard testing at 7 weeks and also has another trainer friend of hers evaluate the litters for performance, pet, therapy, etc. potential. I have bought 2 puppies from her over the years with training and showing in upper levels of performance in mind. In my case, the dogs picked for me for what I wanted (high drive/high energy, very confident and outgoing, etc.) were spot on with the testing results. I will also say I know a number of other people whose dogs were tested, usually with the Volhard method since many of my friends are also into training and showing their dogs, and the test results were also spot on in their cases.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks all, for your kind thoughts/advice.

Thanks Mysticrealm for posting your dog's test result. It helps to have some reference. Even though I'm not an experienced tester, I do feel that my assessment of the pup being not social with us that day is fairly accurate. 

Dechi, I don't mind if she does not retrieve. I'm mostly concerned with her being non-engaging.

Carolinek, I was hoping for love at first sight. But that did not happen. 

Rose n Poos, yes, she did play with her siblings. She chose to check out her surrounding on her own. She just was not interested in any activity we wanted to do with her.

Zooeysmom, my head is inclined toward walking away.

Eclipse, thanks for sharing your experience.

Vita, I don't mind if she did not fetch. I am more concerned of the fact that she did not want to engage in any activity with us. 1) She did not come to me but instead ran away 2) She shivered when I held her. Infact, she also did this when she was 5 wks old (I visited her then and put our deposit down). At that time. I dismissed that as 5 wks old was way too young. 3) When I threw a paper ball close to her, she did not come to check it out, she simply ran away. 4) When I tried the drag some colorful socks in front of her, she did not check it out at all. Again, she ran away and hid.

We played with another puppy (male) from her litter. That puppy behaved more "midle of the road" - e.g. he came to me and sniffed my hands; he tried to chew on the new paper ball that he saw, etc...

Patk, you spoke my mind. It comes down to whether we think we can put in the effort to make this pup fit our family. BTW, I sent you a PM. The Volhard's test has the following top dog tips:

"Avoid the puppy with several 6’s. It is so independent it doesn’t need you or anyone. He is his own person and unlikely to bond to you. "

I'm concerned that we would have a hard time bonding with and training this puppy. I talked to my hubby and kids and we decided that it would be OK to back out of this deal and continue our search.

However, when I called to talk to my breeder about our concern. She told me not to worry too much about what happened yesterday. She said that they would all grow up being more social. She said that it was her fault for not letting the puppies out of their playpen often enough to play and socialize with people. The puppies's momma also stopped feeding them milk, so she thought they were not happy about it. This breeder lives by herself. And, she has boarding and grooming business. So I think she gets visitors often. However, with the puppies being in the playpen all the time, I'm not sure how much human exposure they really get. 

Given the same living environment, her male littermate was way more friendly and interested. So I think her temperament is definitely different than his. Can we work with her temperament? I'm not sure. 

After hearing the breeder's view of things, I told the breeder that I would wait another week. I'll come to visit this pup again when she's about 8 wks old. At that time, if she still shivers and not come to greet/play with me, then we will conclude that she's not a good fit for us.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

a lot of times breeders are careful about very young pups meeting visitors - mostly because they're afraid of what might be tracked in that could spread disease to their pups. that being said, if the breeder said go back in a week, i would take her up on that, especially as you are looking for a pup in your area and don't want to travel too far. hope you'll keep us posted.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Patk. We prefer to buy local. But we are also willing to drive/fly a reasonably distance if necessary to find our dream pup.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Years ago my family adopted a puppy (poodle mix) from a neighbor. I was too absorbed in how cute she was to recognize that she was really standoffish with everyone but my dad. She ended up only bonding with my dad and was very aloof with the rest of us. She displayed aggressive behaviors (many weeks after we got her) when she thought anyone was invading her space or if she didn't like what someone was doing. That is sometimes the path of an insecure dog.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sometimes it's a question of the owner or chosen one enabling the dog. when i brought a retired female in to my single male dog household, she was very assertive. he adored her, but she obviously thought he was unworthy. one day she attacked him (i think over a treat that had fallen under the table). i grabbed her by the scruff and said no. very firmly. she never did it again. though she did teach him to sit and wait while she drank first from the watering dish! i should back up a bit and say that before this happened, he was going after my hands after a brushing - telling me to get the treats out already, he'd been a good boy - and she thought he was attacking me and pinned him by the neck against the dresser. i was stunned and didn't reprimand her, so i didn't stop her at the first go-around. just noting that it's not always the dog's 'nature' that it doesn't adapt to a household.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

From what you say, I would walk. You are being very sensible and sound like you have a level head. The entire point of the volhard is that it should be performed by someone that the pups don’t know. If it were performed by say, the breeder, the results would be extremely different. So it is good that you did the testing yourself. I have done testing on several litters myself and watched testing on other litters and I think you are right to be wary. I prefer puppies with mostly 3s and 4s. Any puppy who is nervous around you at this stage isn’t a puppy that I would place with a family who has kids. Like you said, the brother would likely be a better fit for your family based on his temperament. The fact that the breeder made an excuse about not having many people around them to “explain” why she was so nervous doesn’t sit with me right either. However she is a pretty pup and you sound like you really know what you are doing so I will be anxious to see what you decide when you go back again.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Patk, Dogs4Life, and Chichillafuzzy for sharing your perspective. I think there's a chance that this pup might turn out fine for us. However, if I play my odds, we would have a better chance of success if we pick a pup that's more "middle of the road" in temperament.

I know we wanted to back out before I called the breeder. But when I talked to her, I found it difficult to be firm and back out...so I opted to wait another week. Not sure if this is a good decision or not. But that means I can't explore other options until this deal is decided one way or another.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I would walk on this one. I used the volhard when looking for a spoo to train to be my service dog. it was super hard to leave so many cute little adorable puppies and say no. I walked on over 12 of them and thought i must be nuts, or would have to give up.

But I finally found one that was almost all 3's, one 2 and a 4. He has been incredible. His greatest flaw is perhaps being too friendly, but I will take that any day over the opposite. He has been so easy to train and a wonderful Service Dog.

I have since seen many of the dogs I passed on and am so very thankful I did. I would not trade for any of them.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Kontiki for sharing your experience. How long did your search take? Did you find a breeder who let you choose so many times? Breeders usually require a deposit to hold a puppy for you. I hope I won't need to pass up so many potential puppies because I don't think I can't afford to lose deposit so many times


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

often breeders will let you apply your deposit to a dog from another litter if things don't work out the first time. what is an issue for toys and miniatures, however, is the fact of fewer choices, and therefore possibly a longer search, largely because of fewer pups in a litter. it's an argument for larger scale breeders, but there are downsides to that, too.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I have to agree with everybody - I would walk too. This is such a long time commitment for you and especially since you have children you don't want to start with a puppy that had a not ideal scenario in its first weeks. I have had confident dogs and one not so confident. The latter one was (with an immense amount of training) was an ok and docile dog - but I agree that fearful dogs are a liability - whereas self confident dogs are not. They are so much more likely to bite or misinterpret a situation. They stress out over little things and can have awful separation anxiety. At best they worry constantly about changes in their surrounding - new people, new furniture, other dogs, strange noises, strange lights, fire works , thunder etc etc. This is all life-long. It is not just uphill it is almost impossible to live with a dog like that no matter how much love, energy or training you put in. At best they worry at worst they became reactive.


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

i like that you have an option to test her again, but this initial test makes me wary too so i am also more inclined to walk. i am still not really liking that the breeder is saying to prospective buyers that they can pick any puppy from the litter. this pup sounds like a pup that will be good with singles or retirees with no kids who can devote a lot of time with training, patience and a household that is calm. with kids, i echo that you need a confident dog, mostly 3/4s in a household with children. 

that said, if this works out, that is awesome for you. but if not, i'd would really look into really good, established breeder with a positive reputation. i have seen some of the american mini/toy breeders names being repeated over and over again because they are really that good at what they do. these breeders tend to choose a pup for you and i feel this is good because they have spent so much time with the pups and have done it for countless years and for most part the pairing works really well. 

good luck!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't know much about the test but I do know dogs. And I would not get a dog that displayed shyness and one that the breeder says has not been around people much. Right there is a mistake...no socializing at all and the pups are 7 weeks? Sorry but that right there is a problem for me. When I have visited puppies many times in my life, I have always looked for _all _the pups in the litter to be interested in visitors. They don't have to be wild or clamoring all over me, but they do have to show an enthusiastic, happy demeanor and be interested in coming over to the side of the ex pen or wherever they are to greet me. They can hesitate for a_ couple _seconds, then come over. That shows a pup that is assessing the situation first, then visiting. I like that fine. But I want to see all the pups be pretty darn glad or interested to visit with a new human. I want to see if the pup has good bounce-back when there's a startling...if something is dropped near by that makes a noise. I want to see if the dog is fairly bold...not nervous. If you toss a ball or crumpled up paper, do they all run over to check it out with interest and curiosity? Rather than go straight to it, I like a pup that stops short, looks for one or two seconds, then goes up to it, showing normal, sensible caution, assessing and then addressing it. But what you describe is absolutely one I would stay clear of. I'd be very watchful of the others in the litter as well because nervousness, shyness etc is in part, in the genes. And I want to know that the puppies have had some socializing by the breeder. Even my Doberman puppy, a breed whose correct temperament calls for some reservation of strangers, as a young puppy showed an abundance of interest to visit with new people. All the puppies in the litter did...friendly, outgoing. Later on as he out grew puppy hood became a wee bit reserved at first with people but never shy or nervous. 

As far as struggling when held down on their backs or side, I don't have to have a puppy that is completely okay with this. I would like to see them take a little time to be okay with it because I prefer a dog that's not too soft this way. I want a puppy who thinks a little, has his natural instincts intact. So that's not a huge deal to me. I would like a pup who is kind of semi there but not completely soft to be overly succumbing. Where some folks want their pup to completely submit, I prefer not a total submission.


I hope you skip this pup. Nothing worse that a fearful, nervous, shy puppy. You can have all kinds of problems later on. A huge fault. And no socializing by the breeder...big red flag.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Patk, Moni, Asuk, and PoodleBeguiled. Your reasoning makes a lot of sense to me. I had already felt that I should give this deal up; and with an overwhelming number of PF members urging me to do so, I think I'd be very foolish to proceed.

Well, yesterday I was not being assertive enough in my attempt to decline and agreed to wait another week. Now, I think I need to gather enough courage to say no. I'm very grateful for everyone's help and support.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am sorry for your disappointment and deposit. But over the long run, you'll be glad you declined this puppy I am quite sure. I bet he'd make a good pet for some quite elderly people who don't have a lot of commotion going on at home.

Another thing to watch for is not only puppies that have a good start with socialization to humans...besides those in the family, but also a good start with grooming. My breeder already was shaving their faces, feet, sani by the time they were 4 weeks old...he probably did a little something before that...not sure. Anyhow, it sure makes life easier when they're accustomed to clippers and a little bit of practice standing sort of still. lol. Mine were still wiggly but still...pretty use to it all by the time I got them.

Good luck. The perfect puppy for you and your family will come along with some more looking.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I was out at rally trials while much of this discussion was happening, but I will say I am happy to see that you have decided against this particular puppy. That level of shyness (especially if a result of less than optimal social opportunities) will be hard to overcome and if your children have friends over to play that may just not be a happy situation for all concerned. I hope if you decide to stick with this breeder that they will transfer your deposit to a future litter. If not then I would think about looking elsewhere since that raises a red flag for me. With Javelin's litter there had been someone in front of me for first pick boy. She had to decline that litter because her other dog was diagnosed with cancer. As I recall Delana asked her whether she wanted her deposit back or to apply it to a future litter.


With respect to Volhard testing I think it is generally an accurate predictor of general temperament characteristics with the caveat that a serious traumatic event can undo potential or limit its realization and also that extraordinarily good training can counter some undesirable characteristics. We did not ask for Volhard testing of Javelin's litter, nor did we do it ourselves but the person who had second pick boy did the testing prior to our pick visit. His testing led him to Javelin as his top choice. Needless to say he had to give a second choice to and that is the puppy he got and I got Javelin who is turning out to be all I could see in him as a youngster. You should also note that the drive to retrieve in the Volhard is a test of strength of prey drive, not a test of how much fun it will be to play fetch.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks PoodleBeguiled and Lily for your encouragement.

Well, it's done now. I called and informed the breeder that our family had decided to decline this puppy. I think she was as disappointed as I was. She did not mention about the deposit, and I didn't ask for it. I was a little hopeful she would offer; but I didn't feel it was right to request. After all, she did spend a lot of time with us and hold the puppy for us for 2 weeks. I accepted the risk when I put down the deposit. Anyway, hopefully the poor puppy will find its ideal home.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I would like to commend you on a VERY smart decision, PuppyDream. I hope she will return the deposit to you, even though you know and accept that she is under no obligation. 

Now you can move forward with finding that perfect match for your family :love2:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That puppy hopefully will find a nice peaceful home with someone who will be a doting person accepting of the pup's shyness. It is after all a cute poodle baby.


I wish you the best in finding a more confident pup who will be a good fit for your family and how your children will remember as the best dog ever because it is the one they grew up with.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sorry duplicate


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Variation in training*

My 5c worth in this discussion is based on my own experience with largely GSDs. (about a hundred of them) Puppy testing is only a guide of what material the trainer has to work with. A puppy might be shy and slow compared to the rest of the litter by virtue of being born late and last. This often means that its development is slower. It might well catch up or exceed the other puppies. Early socialization with the other puppies will be held back and competition for the teat will slow development further. Some breeders divide the litter into two and have the puppies feed in two shifts. It is easier for the trainer if the puppies are socialized with humans early and consistently. If a breeder is large scale, human socialization of 20 or more puppies is virtually impossible. The result is often puppies who treat their new human friends as puppies and land sharks are the result. I have taken on training of shy, exuberant and excitable puppies. In due course they all achieved a level of behavior that the average handler would be happy with. That having been said, the shy dogs were more careful with interactions. The exuberant ones were likely to be show offs and the excitable were more easily stirred into action. All were manageable in time. The exuberant show offs were the easiest and quickest to train. Some of the shy dogs transformed into show offs. Some became couch potatoes.:act-up:


Eric


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think you made the right decision for you and your family, though i believe you would have reached the same decision without volhard testing, given your gut reaction to that little shiver and shyness. that being said, i don't think the breeder was totally wrong in saying give it another week. i admit i watch 'too cute' on television, which focuses on puppies and kittens of various breeds. litter mate socialization matters. timid and/or loner pups, for example, become solid and self-confident pack members over time. kind of makes sense if you think of the fact that not all children develop at the same speed. that being said, with small litters to begin with and puppies leaving litters at 8 weeks (which i admit i think is too soon), there may not be enough time for the outlier to catch up. 

in any case, there's a puppy out there waiting for you. chin up and keep looking!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

That was a tough decision, and I think it was the correct one for you and your family.

My experience (admittedly only one pup) was that the Volhard test turned out to be a very reliable predictor of temperament and drive. Dulcie scored many 3s and 4s but also a few 5s (and she IS a little standoffish in certain situations). Most noticable was that even at 49 days, she displayed a very strong prey/fetch drive. She ran after and retrieved a ball for the tester and brought it back to her. She has continued to not only enjoy but NEED fetch/retrieving time every day for her emotional well-being. 

I hope you will soon find a puppy who will be a good fit for your family!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

nifty even though we didn't do strict Volhard with Lily's litter either she did show strong prey drive and is a die hard retriever through and through to this day. She started fetching balls within a week after she came home and even after driving an hour and a half to New Jersey yesterday in the early early morning (left home at 6:00 AM), doing six rally courses, finishing all that at sometime around 4:00 PM, driving home which took a bit more than 2 hours, stopping quickly at the food store and getting in the house around 7:00 PM she still wanted me (really needed me) to play fetch with her while I was trying to go to sleep somewhere in the vicinity of 10 PM. She is a funny fun girl, but wow it was time to go to sleep my girl. I suspect if Lily and Dulcie ever had a play date we would need about ten balls for the two of them. I think the die hard fetch/retrieving is a very deeply innately programmed behavior that can easily be seen in very young puppies and that it will stick with them for their lifespan. Almost every time I have the chance to I do dumbbell work with Lily on the flat and over the jump. I also often do the utility directed glove retrieve with her because she has such a strong drive for it.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

This sounds very familiar to me, Catherine! I bet if Lily and Dulcie ever met, they would also have a ball together -- pun intended! :-D


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## LMcCart (Jun 24, 2018)

patk said:


> in case you decide to look further, kamann miniatures in brier wa is advertising a litter. i boy, 2 girls, cream, apricot and white. i have no idea which one is apricot.


We got our adorable mini from kamann in August and she turned out great! Anne is the best.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i say your mini's pic in your intro post. really really cute. did you do any volhard testing on her? how old was she when you took her home?


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## LMcCart (Jun 24, 2018)

We were so naive. My wife and I had dogs in the family when we were both 8 or 9 years old (not old enough to understand), and had been too busy in life until recently.

Penny was a four-hour drive away from our home but I got a good vibe from the breeder from phone calls and emails. After putting down a deposit, our son, who lived closer, did make a "house visit" and gave us a thumbs up.

At week 9, we went to pick her up and fortunately she was so happy to see her new owners at first sight. 

We got lucky (which is good, because it was an EXPENSIVE gamble) and now we don't know why we did not do this sooner!


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## LMcCart (Jun 24, 2018)

And PatK with your photo. You have to love white poodles in snow pictures!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Adorable pic in the snow! People think my spoo is white. Very obvious he is cream when in the snow....


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hey lmccart, i am at pf on sufferance because i used to have lowchen and was planning on a poodle but have wavered about getting another dog since my two lowchen passed away over the years. losing a dog, well, no words. that photo of sheer exuberance was taken years ago when we had one of those snowed in days in dc, cars were buried and a neighbor and i took our dogs out. no vehicles could move, so we let the dogs run. my little guy (lowchen are about the size of minis) was so happy all four feet were off the ground as he leapt forward. why dogs win our hearts. your little girl is so adorable in that first photo you posted. and this one with the snow on her nose is great, too!


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, PatK and LMcCart. LMcCart, your info comes perhaps a little too late for me. I've already told my first breeder that I didn't want that shy puppy. And, just today, I found another mini poodle from a very well respected breeder from Vegas. I told her verbally that I would send in a 50% deposit. 

I want to post the following opinion from this second breeder on the "shy/fearfull 7-weeks old puppy" issue for the interest of others who might have the same question as me when searching for their pet.

When discussing the temperament of the potential puppy, I told her that I was looking for a friendly and easy-going personality. I also mentioned that I was concerned after visiting another puppy that displayed shyness and fearfulness at 7 weeks, this breeder did not seem surprised. In fact, she felt that it was not a sign to be concerned about because the pup was still too young and that some pups are a little slower, or something about me (new scent, shiny clothes, etc...) could have scared her. We were discussing someone else's dog, so I felt her opinion was objective and based on her 37 years in the breeding business.

I think the Volhard testing may be accurate, but perhaps not 100%. And temperament testing aside, maybe 7 weeks is too soon to assess personality. Anyway, what is done is done. I guess that puppy was not meant to be ours. I hope our future puppy will be the friendly puppy that we dream of


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

glad you have found a puppy, and the breeder sounds very experienced. one thing i like is that she felt no need to denigrate the other breeder. as i said earlier, having spent more time than i want to admit watching 'too cute,' i do think dogs develop at different rates. and i especially suspect the smaller dogs are more likely to do so. i am glad the volhard test worked for so many. but the developmental problems that have appeared in some older volhard tested dogs - reactivity, higher than expected energy, etc. - have obviously not been predicted by the volhard. it makes sense that some traits might not appear at 7 weeks, and it's a good reason to consider most seriously the experience of the breeder and the reliability of the breeder's line. 

looking foward to meeting your puppy when the time comes. sounds like you and your family will be very happy.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I know that since it's been a long time since you've had a puppy you are very concerned about doing this right, making right decisions, and very reasonably so. 

But...

I'm going to fly in the face of conventional wisdom a bit and remind you that you raised your children, without the benefit of testing and such before you decided to keep them. I know you can manage a poodle puppy .

I say this a lot, as do others. You can plan and plan and still find you need to adjust as life unfolds, no guarantees. 

Some of us relied on testing, some of us relied on experience, some of us relied on the pup letting us know. Very rarely do we regret. Well, ok, you may occasionally want to give the puppy back, but you'll get past that .

I want to encourage you to also trust yourself, your judgment, along with the tools at hand, in this adventure. 

Eagerly awaiting what's next


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Rose and Poos. With the local breeder, I could rely on my judgement. With the new long distance breeder, I have to take a leap of faith and make a commitment before seeing the pup.

With children, we don't get to pick and choose. So, in a way, it was easier. Actually, come to think of it, I did not get so stressed out for months before deciding to have a kid.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PuppyDream I am glad you have found a puppy. Since you mentioned Las Vegas I am going to guess that the breeder may be Ash's Mystical. My mom was bred by their partner Eriand. So while I can't say anything directly about Ash's Mystical I can say her partner produces very nice minis.


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

Terribly late to the discussion.but Otter and boy littermates were tested by an experienced tester before I chose him. (unanimous between tester,helper (also experienced),and myself. I had helped test another spoo litter,and the differences were dramatic. An important component is that the testing be done in a neutral location. AND my breeder lives alone in a remote location ,to boot.

My point,I suppose, is that if the puppy was shy in her own home...you made the right decision. I had never had a pup tested,though I had read about it..just took what was given to me and ran with it. But this pup was meant for great things, and my main trainer insisted.Now if he would only get a brain!:amen:


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

"Now if he would only get a brain!" How old is he ?


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Mashaphan. She was in her own home but I tested her in a room that she hasn't been in before, trying to make the environment as neutral as possible. I guess the only thing we can say is that, at 7 weeks, she did not seem like a good match for our family. Would she grow out of her fearfulness? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell. Sometimes things happen for a reason. I like to think that in this case, it did.


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

kontiki said:


> "Now if he would only get a brain!" How old is he ?


Otter is just 2,so we have awhile to wait. I was around for Gabrielle Fabian and her poodle title records (though they were minis :angel2,so I have (probably unreasonable) high expectations:adore: Lily CDRE keeps telling me "don't rush the boy!" :alberteinstein:


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