# Running Away From Nature's Recipe Vegetarian



## Jasper Rules (Jul 12, 2015)

For now I would say to do an elimination diet. You said that he cannot have corn, wheat, soy, dairy, chicken, or beef, but that still leaves you with lots of options. Proteins such as lamb or fish may help his problems. I personally feed Acana (the grain free varieties). It does not have anything that Wrex is unable to have (except for the chicken and beef varieties). Jasper is allergic to beef so he gets the chicken, lamb, and fish types. This has cleared up some of his itching. 

Until Wrex's stools have firmed up I would do a bland chicken and rice diet for the next few days and basically "reset" his stomach. Then add a bit of the new kibble to the chicken and rice over a few days.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Jasper Rules said:


> I personally feed Acana (the grain free varieties). It does not have anything that Wrex is unable to have (except for the chicken and beef varieties). Jasper is allergic to beef so he gets the chicken, lamb, and fish types. This has cleared up some of his itching.
> 
> Until Wrex's stools have firmed up I would do a bland chicken and rice diet for the next few days and basically "reset" his stomach. Then add a bit of the new kibble to the chicken and rice over a few days.


Acana is on my list. I'm hoping to find it locally....

No chicken for Wrex. It was one of the first things we took him off of last fall.


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## Jasper Rules (Jul 12, 2015)

Whoops! Clearly was not thinking on for that last part! 

If he cannot have chicken and rice, then I would just give him canned pumpkin and rice and add a bit of your new kibble to that until his stools firm up.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

I really appreciate the advice! I'm at the pet store now and I will be sure to swing by the grocery and stock up on some pumpkin and rice.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry to see you are back to having to switch foods. Since his gut is already about as bad as it can be I don't think it will be bad to just switch cold turkey, but I would give his digestive tract a rest. Maybe no food today at all and then pumpkin and rice tomorrow before trying a new kibble. When Javelin dove into the big dogs' food he had a bad case of the runs. I let him skip a couple of meals (one dinner, one breakfast and a small mid morning meal, small late lunch then normal dinner) to let his intestine settle down. That did the trick.

I hope to see good news for you two.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Thanks, Lily. We skipped breakfast after this morning's elimination, and he was so tired. He spent a couple hours in his crate while I ran errands and when I had him outside just now he was bouncing and running and playing ball with much enthusiasm. I think his belly feels better. 

While I was out, I went to my neighborhood pet store (NOT PETCO!) and had a terrific conversation with one of the employees. They really know their stuff! I was pleased to see that my preferred small shop carries a HUGE variety of high end food options, including Merrick and Fromme grain-free LID formulas, Natural Balance LID, Nature's Variety (but not the LID line, I was looking at), Arcana, Orijen and several raw and freeze-dried raw options. I read lots of labels, did some Googling at the store and ultimately decided to bring home a small bag of Zignature Turkey to try. I really liked what I found on line for the company. Dog Advisor rates their food very high. Their ingredients list fit my requirements. They don't use starchy potatoes as filler and the cost is about the same as what I was paying for Earthborn Holistic or TOTW. If Turkey doesn't work for him, they have other protein options: trout, lamb, duck and a kangaroo formula.

Here's the plan: Wrex is also skipping lunch today, then around dinner I'll feed him pumpkin, rice (which I'm cooking now) and mix in 1/4 cup of the new food.


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## Jasper Rules (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm glad to hear Wrex is feeling better and that the worker at your pet store was able to help you out!  

Zignature is a high quality food and I have heard many good things about it as well! Hopefully things will settle down for Wrex now


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is too bad the big box stores have driven so many small independent shops out of business. Javelin came home on Fromm Puppy Gold. Although I am switching to Blue I needed some Fromm to get started and to have enough to make a gentle transition. The only place I found it was a small independent place. The place I usually buy food, not small but independent doesn't stock it but would have ordered it for me. I've already finished a five pound bag of Fromm, started a second bag today and opened a bag of Blue large breed puppy from which I have taken about 6 cups. This boy is always hungry. He often tries to eat the big dogs' food too even though I have already upped the portion at each feeding. I think I will have a big boy here!

I hope to see good news from you in the next day or two.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would try the fish next if he doesn't do well on the turkey. Sorry, I did not read this post before commenting on the sad nose shot. Poor guy!


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> I would try the fish next if he doesn't do well on the turkey. Sorry, I did not read this post before commenting on the sad nose shot. Poor guy!


I just wish he'd drink some water. It worries me.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Poor Wrex! Hope the new food works.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Would one of the fromm grain frees work? Like Pork and peas, Surf and turf, salmon tunalini? They also have probiotics, and my dogs do so well on anything by fromm. 

Poor Wrex  For now I think I'd cook some fish and sweet potato until you can find him something suitable.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Would one of the fromm grain frees work? Like Pork and peas, Surf and turf, salmon tunalini? They also have probiotics, and my dogs do so well on anything by fromm.
> 
> Poor Wrex  For now I think I'd cook some fish and sweet potato until you can find him something suitable.


Unfortunately, the Fromme has egg in it, which we were advised to avoid. I just fed him a couple tbs of pumpkin mixed with a couple tbs of brown rice and 1 tbs of Zignature Turkey kibble. I'll give him a little more in a bit. He licked that dish dry! Hopefully, that little bit of food will entice him to drink some too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I often have to tell Lily to drink when she is off kilter (like overly hot at agility lesson, at trials,etc.). In those circumstances she likes to drink from a bottle as I pour the water into a bowl.


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## Jasper Rules (Jul 12, 2015)

cmarrie said:


> I just wish he'd drink some water. It worries me.


I have heard that some dogs drink and pee a bit more than usual on Zignature. Most seem to do really well on it though! And the limited ingredients will be really good for his allergies, as long as he does not end up being allergic to any of them or anything.


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm trying to find a kibble for Yuki too. I was feeding raw both meals but am thinking of doing kibble in the morning and raw in the evening. He eats Earthborne right now but he itches quite a bit.

The balanced raw diet completely stopped his itching but since he is SO active, he has to eat so much (12 oz a meal twice a day) to maintain his body weight...it gets very expensive. He has a sensitive tummy too and raw didn't bother him one bit.

There is also a new kangaroo diet going around that everyone is going crazy over, I think made by Zignature? It is sold out right when they get it in, and it is supposed to be great for allergy prone dogs because kangaroo is "hypoallergenic" supposedly? Thinking of maybe giving that a try. Atticus is a picky eater and Zignature is the only food he will eat, he has been on the Zignature Lamb for almost 3 years now.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Steamed fish and rice after a few hours and wean him onto your next try. Be wary of a diet too low in protein. If he does not drink for 24 hrs he may die. Back to the vet for hydration??
Eric.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

A dog would have to go without water for more than 24 hours to die... If he's eaten some pumpkin, that's introduced some fluid already. You can always float his kibble in some water, that might help.

Years ago, my little allergic-to-most-things dog did well on a kangaroo diet. It might have been Zignature. 

When my male Chow was a youngster, everything gave him horrible diarrhea. It was awful. I ended up having to do a lot of probiotics (human grade..the refrigerated ones) for a month, which seemed to help. He hasn't had an issue since then (occasional trash raiding effects aside)


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> I often have to tell Lily to drink when she is off kilter (like overly hot at agility lesson, at trials,etc.). In those circumstances she likes to drink from a bottle as I pour the water into a bowl.


Every time I try to entice Wrex to drink (not just lately, but when he had those urine crystals too), he would investigate, then give me this evil eye look that says "Don't you know you aren't smart enough to trick me?"


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Jasper Rules said:


> I have heard that some dogs drink and pee a bit more than usual on Zignature. Most seem to do really well on it though! And the limited ingredients will be really good for his allergies, as long as he does not end up being allergic to any of them or anything.


I've read that too. I don't mind refilling the water bowl and taking him out to the yard, if that's what it takes for him to eat well and not have a reaction. When I'm eating the diet I'm should, I consume a bunch more water too.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Michelle said:


> I'm trying to find a kibble for Yuki too. I was feeding raw both meals but am thinking of doing kibble in the morning and raw in the evening. He eats Earthborne right now but he itches quite a bit.
> 
> The balanced raw diet completely stopped his itching but since he is SO active, he has to eat so much (12 oz a meal twice a day) to maintain his body weight...it gets very expensive. He has a sensitive tummy too and raw didn't bother him one bit.
> 
> There is also a new kangaroo diet going around that everyone is going crazy over, I think made by Zignature? It is sold out right when they get it in, and it is supposed to be great for allergy prone dogs because kangaroo is "hypoallergenic" supposedly? Thinking of maybe giving that a try. Atticus is a picky eater and Zignature is the only food he will eat, he has been on the Zignature Lamb for almost 3 years now.


I looked at Honest Kitchen (which they carry at my local shop) but once I calculated the cost for my 60lb spoo....It's not an option for me. I'd be looking at about $60 every 9-10 days!! The clerk (the very young clerk) nailed it when he said, "wow, that's a car payment!"

I think kangaroo is considered hypoallergenic simply because it's a novel protein here in the states. There are actually several brands that make a kangaroo kibble: Zignature, Natural Balance LID, California Natural and Addiction which has both a kibble and a freeze dried raw option. They aren't cheap, but between Chewy.com and Amazon they can be delivered to your doorstep!


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

All this time and I just now figured out how to multi quote in one reply! Sorry for the previous spamming!!!




ericwd9 said:


> Steamed fish and rice after a few hours and wean him onto your next try. Be wary of a diet too low in protein. If he does not drink for 24 hrs he may die. Back to the vet for hydration??
> Eric.





grab said:


> A dog would have to go without water for more than 24 hours to die... If he's eaten some pumpkin, that's introduced some fluid already. You can always float his kibble in some water, that might help.


I'm still watching him, as I know dehydration is very serious. He's behaving (and consuming) normally today and his alertness and energy levels are normal as well. His morning elimination, while small, was very healthy. So, for today, I'll be giving him a mixture of pumpkin, rice and about 1/3 serving of the new food at each meal. If things stay on track, we should be on this new food by the weekend.

As a side note about Zignature. I was reading through their website and discovered the recommended feeding amounts were much less there than is listed on the bag. I fired off an email to the address on their site asking which one was correct. 
_On your website, the recommended amount for 60lb adult is approximately 2 1/5 cups. On the bag I purchased today, it says 3 1/3 cups. which is correct?_​I had an email response from them 1.5 hours later which stated: 
_Thank you for your email. The correct feed amounts are on our website. We recently had our food reevaluated and the feeding guide lines along with the kcals changed. We have changed the back of the bags to the correct information and are waiting on the bags in the pet store to be cycled through with the new bags._​
Good customer service response, made in North America with no Chinese components, in my price range, several proteins to choose from and none of the suspected triggers we are avoiding. I have to admit my hopes are raised.


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

What food are you going to try?

Atticus does very well on Zignature. He doesn't drink any more than usual and he has healthy bowel movements. He doesn't need to go out more often than the other dogs either...he can hold himself for 8 hours if need be and he is only 4-5 pounds with a teeny tiny bladder 

The store I get food from lets you return the bag for a refund if no more than half is used (maybe all stores offer this? Not sure, but they let you know when you buy the bag). I might run over there and buy a small bag of the Kangaroo...

Let us know how the new food works out!


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

For water, will he play in the waterhose or drink from an alternate source?

Hazel will drink from anything (literally!) and always likes to drink from alternate sources. If I had the hose out she will gulp water like she's never drank in her life. Also, just the act of playing in the hose gets some water into her. She will also drink from the shower head of I turn it upside down and make it spray up like a fountain. 

But most importantly, I've taught her to drink from a Camelback. She's gotten really good at it. At it means that she drinks on my command. 

It has been really helpful when we are out walking because I can be sure she is drinking and not just poking at at water bowl. 

Someone else mentioned putting a little broth or flavor in the water, that might help to but be sure you don't leave it out too long. 

I'd start trying different ways to "trick" him into drinking. And try offering water often.


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Michelle said:


> What food are you going to try? Let us know how the new food works out!


I started with the turkey formula. I didn't want to jump to something super rich and fatty since the soy tore him up. Plus, I don't have any reason to discount turkey yet. I can always move to another protein if I need to. So far so good today, even though he's being annoying right now because he's hungry. Pumpkin and rice doesn't last very long in the belly of an active puppy!



itzmeigh said:


> For water, will he play in the water hose or drink from an alternate source? Someone else mentioned putting a little broth or flavor in the water, that might help to but be sure you don't leave it out too long.
> 
> I'd start trying different ways to "trick" him into drinking. And try offering water often.


I don't know if he would like the hose or a sprinkler. He's not terribly fond of the shower sprayer when I rinse his face...more like he endures it stoically. 

I'll have to grab some veggie broth and try that trick. (chicken and beef is all I have in the cabinet). I'm not sure if it will work. I leave fresh water out all day for him, but he's not nearly as good of a drinker as he is an eater. Sometimes if I stand near the sink and chug some myself he'll join me, but not yesterday. Today has been better.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I had another idea. Lily and Peeves are enthusiastic about their water bowl if there are ice cubes in it.


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## Jasper Rules (Jul 12, 2015)

I'm glad his elimination was normal this morning  

I was just about to suggest what lily cd re said about putting ice cubes in his water. Even if he just licks at them, at least that is getting something in him. While you probably don't want to be adding/switching foods now that his poop is normal, canned food does have a lot of moisture and can help with dehydration. I noticed that Zignature makes a turkey canned food.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

I was going to suggest ice cubes as well but I remembered a thread a long while back where it seemed ice cubes were maybe a hot topic so I avoided mentioning them. 

Hazel will fight you for an ice cube. And by fight you I mean poke you tea glass over with her nose and gather all the ice before you can put your plate down and stop her. 

Freezing something edible and yummy in the ice might help too. 

As for the waterhose... Hazel seems to know that water outside is safe while water inside the bathroom is evil. So I don't know that I'd base his bath time enjoyment on how me might feel about a play in the hose.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Cmarrie, I have not posted on poodleforum for awhile. But ended up reading about Wrex tonight. I am so concerned about him because my spoo had also been through things similar several years ago. So I went back to try to see what has happened with Wrex. I even went back to your earlier posts to see his history, and noted responses, and how he has reacted. This is so concerning for him.

I just thought I would tell you about what has happened with us. My spoo got to the point that he not only had the runs most of the time, but was also throwing up, and wouldn't drink water. He ended up losing about 1/3 of his body weight. We tried all of the high end kibbles, all of the vet recommended kibbles, including canned. 

I was getting scared. I was training him as my Service Dog so it was even more important that he be healthy. It looked to me like he was not going to make it when the vet finally had to start giving him IV fluids. 

When I saw that your breeder was claiming that none of the other dogs had problems, but wasn't sending you your papers I became even more concerned. It may not be true at all.

I hesitate to tell you what finally worked because I saw that you didn't want to go raw. But when I thought my dear spoo was not going to make it I decided to totally go against my vets recommendations. 

I had to try something. So I gave him a chicken leg. Amazing. He ate it, and kept it down. The next meal he wanted more, and then actually drank some water. I was almost in shock. 

It turns out that a lot of the things that the vets say they are allergic to is because it is in kibble, and is so processed, and has so many additives that yes, they are allergic to it. It turned out that my breeder had been feeding her dogs raw for 2 generations.

My spoo is now so healthy that he looks like a pup at 6 years. But I have had some hard lessons.I found out that much of the meat that I was buying on sale had something called 'solution' in it. I first discovered it in chicken that was frozen, and then in all chicken at Walmart. Recently my spoo was having a problem with eye discoloration, very obvious since he is white, and an ear infection. I started looking carefully again at everything I was feeding him, and discovered that the pork now had 'up to 12% solution' in it. So we quit that 6 weeks ago and he is now back fine.

I do spend more on the organ meat that I feed him about once a week. I make sure that his liver and kidneys, etc are from grass fed beef. I cannot afford that for all of his meat, but at last I know that that is of the highest quality, and is the cheapest of grass fed cuts.

So - concerned about your Wrex, and wanting to share my story. Sending best wishes for Wrex. May he be well!


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

kontiki said:


> So - concerned about your Wrex, and wanting to share my story. Sending best wishes for Wrex. May he be well!


Kontiki-I am so grateful that you shared your story. What an awful experience to go through. Knowing you are doing nothing wrong, yet your puppy is failing to thrive. It's truly wonderful that you stumbled on the raw solution. I really am hoping that I find a non-raw option, but should I end up having to go that way, I expect I'll be in touch with you!

Wrex is feeling much better the last couple days. He's been eating a full serving of the new kibble (Zignature turkey) split into 3 meals the way that is our routine. I stopped adding rice to it yesterday because he seemed to be having a slight constipation. I suspect too much fiber (the new kibble has chickpeas in it). The end of my giant can of pumpkin was on his dinner last night too. It's been easier going for him today. I realized Tuesday that one of the things that makes Wrex drink water is chewing, and that he hasn't been doing any of that lately with his belly upset. I went out and bought him a new chew stick that has an interesting texture and that totally did the trick. He hasn't let it out of his sight for the last day or so and is back to consuming water on a regular basis. And, his nose is looking a bit better today too. 

We washed off the "sick" today, during which Wrex pouted the entire time, then dried off in the sun with a game of ball. We finished with a Turkey Kibble lunch. It's nice to be back on routine. Hopefully, this will do the trick!


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm so glad he's feeling better. Hopefully this continues!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

That's more like it! Hope he continues to thrive!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am so happy to see he has energy to play today. Fingers are crossed here for both of you!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

It's nice to see your handsome boy is doing better, it's really tough when you can't figure out how to make them feel better


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