# Phantom Poodles



## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

*Phatom poodle*

Here is another picture.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Often they fade to a lighter color.


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

My girls were jet black when they were born, now they are slowly turning silver!


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## Aroseshook (Aug 12, 2012)

Peek was also jet black when born, she turning blue! I can't wait until her coat is one changing to post the photos. Your "baby" is so cute. I hope you take extra time grooming that precious thing just to spend time with her! it will e wonderful to see how she grows.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Genetically, phantoms are Ee or EE with a pattern in an ee colour caused by a recessive K allele. They can be any born-dark colour (black, brown, blue, café, silver, or silver beige) and the pattern can be red, apricot, cream, or white. They can also be brindled phantom as well as clear phantom, which makes the pattern of lighter markings look grubby with streaks of the top colour, and phantoms in this colour sometimes get referred to as black and silver, brown and café, etc.

So some phantoms will turn a lighter colour as they mature, and others will stay the colour they are born. It depends what's in their background. Silver and silver beige phantoms often clear so much they are indistinguishable from their solid counterparts, and can go incognito to dog shows.


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## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks for the information, she is not my dog though, she is my customers. I get to see her grow up and change color. 

I was just curious about her color, as I never seen a phantom in real life. The litter was all black and the father was red and the mother black, the breeder 
was surprised with the phantom markings. 

The breeder has never had a phantom show up in the litter before. 

Thanks again.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Nicholas is a silver and creme phantom. As a puppy he was as black as Omar but by the time he was a year old he was silver.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I love the puppy face. I can't answer, but am interested in the answer about the genes involved. I am a college biology instructor and I would love to use poodle coat colors as a genetics problem. Currently I have problems based on some of the cat coat color genes related to my kitty girls (now all on the other side of the bridge), but would love to add some poodle-y problems. Can any of you provide me with a reliable source of information on this topic? Thanks in advance.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> I love the puppy face. I can't answer, but am interested in the answer about the genes involved. I am a college biology instructor and I would love to use poodle coat colors as a genetics problem. Currently I have problems based on some of the cat coat color genes related to my kitty girls (now all on the other side of the bridge), but would love to add some poodle-y problems. Can any of you provide me with a reliable source of information on this topic? Thanks in advance.


Dog Coat Colour Genetics

In poodles

Where * = either E or e

E* kyky atat = phantom








E* kyky ayat = shaded sable








E* kyky ayay = sable








E* kbrky or kbrkbr ayay or ayat = brindle








E* kbrkbr or kbrky atat = 'dirty' phantom








(a bit difficult to see, but the puppy has dingy red markings on its paws obscured by brindling)

Bb or BB = black; bb = brown in any of above combinations


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

zyrcona, thanks so much. You gave me more than I hoped for in an answer. The link will give me the information on the loci and dominance relations of the alleles and the pictures will help keep the students interested in the topic.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

poodlelover said:


> I was just curious about her color, as I never seen a phantom in real life. The litter was all black and the father was red and the mother black, the breeder
> was surprised with the phantom markings.


There seem to be two separate main sources in pedigrees of the recessive ky gene that allows phantom and sable patterns to be expressed. One of them appears to be the Shangri-La/Palmares miniature cross from which the red colour in standards originates, so many reds are or carry ky. As red is an ee colour, red phantoms do not obviously appear to be phantom. The other source traces back to a prolific bitch, Safari's Evensong, so if you look in the black mother's pedigree, I wouldn't be surprised if you found this bitch way back. Most of the descendants of Evensong where the gene survives are from white lines, and white is also an ee colour on which agouti patterns won't be visible. I'm not sure where it comes from before this. If you go past Evensong, you start to hit the Wycliffe bottleneck, and it certainly didn't come from there otherwise half the black dogs being born today would be phantoms or sables lol, so it presumably came from the Puttencove dogs or another ancestor in her pedigree.


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## meo (7 mo ago)

poodlelover said:


> Hi, does any know if the phantom poodles coat changes color as they grow into an adult? My customer just got a pup and she is brown and black but at the roots of the brown it looks lighter.
> She is so cute and I get to groom her.
> Here is a picture of her with me, she has a full face right now.


Is it possible to have an updated photo of the puppy? I am interested in how her markings progressed. There is little information regarding this as the puppy ages. Kind regards


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

meo said:


> Is it possible to have an updated photo of the puppy? I am interested in how her markings progressed. There is little information regarding this as the puppy ages. Kind regards


Hi and Welcome to PF!

Unfortunately, the thread has been dormant almost 12y and the OP hasn't been active since 2013 so a response is rather unlikely. 

If you head over to the Poodle Rainbow subforum, under Poodle Pictures, there are threads on practically every color and pattern, so you might get lucky and see something like there. 








Poodle Rainbow







www.poodleforum.com


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## meo (7 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome to PF!
> 
> Unfortunately, the thread has been dormant almost 12y and the OP hasn't been active since 2013 so a response is rather unlikely.
> 
> ...


Cheers


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