# What makes a byb and a good breeder?



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

An age old question, and one I don't think you will get agreement on as everyone has a different answer!

The acceptable amount of breeding dogs for me is the number that can still be pets first and foremost. This varies according to breeder location, whether they work full time, how much help the have, etc, etc.

We have many friends in the dog world, some of whom are hobby breeders. The most any of our immediate friends has ever had is about 5 to 6. Those dogs are their pets, live in the house with them and travel with them. I probably would not be comfortable with a breeder who had much more than that.

I personally feel that once you get into the teens and higher that you have moved out of pets first/ hobby breeder and into a very different arena.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

This is a very good question. How many breeding dogs are acceptable? This is sort of like "bad art". I can't define it, but I sure know it when I see it! For me personally, at this stage in my life, I know that 3 Standards in my home is my limit. This is the number of dogs I can resonably groom, train and show. 

What separates BYB from good breeder? My personal thoughts..... 

I think good breeders are doing something with their dogs: show, performance, therapy, hunting etc. I like to see that breeding stock is having their breed worthiness independently proven in some way. It is never enough for me that someone says "Oh Fluffy has the BEST temperament!" I say prove it by getting out and showing in some venue! I also don't put a lot of stock in UKC confirmation showing so it is a red flag for me when folks only finish Poodles in UKC. 

I like to see that breeders are trying to improve our breed by breeding to the very best dogs out there. It is a huge red flag for me if a breeder is breeding to their own (or outside) untitled, mediocre stud dogs.


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I can't imagine, finding the sheer attention BEYOND grooming, etc that 3 dogs require to be majorly (if pleasurably) time-consuming (and I work at home).

I do remember some horrorshow breeding 'show' operations, like one run by a well-known judge, when I was showing rabbits. Obviously a person can physically 'do' more buns in their rabbitry than a person could handle spoos, but in principle it was the same (said judge left my GC Flemish doe that I *loved*, my dear Missle, in a metal cage & left her to die in the heat, while she was there for breeding. The rabbitry was filthy, there were huindreds of rabbits, some dead in cages, some sick. I was a kid, but even I knew better, & I wish I'd listened to my instincts before I suffered that horrendous loss. But she was a 'well-known judge', who was I?)

I think it's a good idea not to get blinded by people's reps, beyond what you can see (and smell) ith your own eyes. Bluster (as we saw in the blog) seems to be a hallmark- I never met a truly first-class rabbit breeder with an attitude towards their purchasers- they always were helpful beyond call of duty (Everett's Belgian Hares, etc- see, after 35 years I still remember the excellent breeders). If those dogs went to shows stained w/ urine & matted under their topcoats, I (were I a judge) would've had huge red flags going off about their living conditions.


I can't imagine having more than 5 or 6 adult spoos (for someopne else! edit), full time with a seperate source of income, & years of experience/callouses for the grooming needs (unless you are the Duggars, & have 19 kids to train & socialize them), personally. YMMV.


----------



## Jenspoo (Mar 25, 2009)

Thanks for a resonable answer. I am not shopping I have my 2 dogs (pets/fixed). Just wondered.


----------



## Jenspoo (Mar 25, 2009)

bluespoo said:


> i can't imagine having more than 5 or 6 adult spoos (for someopne else! Edit), full time with a seperate source of income, & years of experience/callouses for the grooming needs (unless you are the duggars, & have 19 kids to train & socialize them), personally. Ymmv.


lmbo!!!


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I just know that I would not ever consider a breeder who has more than 5 dogs on the site - no matter if it is a BYB of "show breeder" . I would also expect that at least 2 of those are retired dogs from showing and breeding and kept and loved regardless , which would show me that breeder really loves and cares about her dogs and is not keeping only the "working animals" that bring some income or fame. 

For a true BYB - to say that he is a good breeder - IMO, what would make him above other BYBs (beside having 3-5 dogs MAX) would be a health testing and involvement in ANY dog activity beside breeding ( even if it is a just a "fly-ball" LOL - BUT actively training and doing it !!!). Also , feeding a premium food and great grooming (no shave-downs regularly !!!!!!) and of course - keeping dogs in the home ( not any fenced off runs 24/7 !!!!)

Using the best stud possible in the area for breeding would be also a sign of at least some planning and thought given in the whole process. 

Good BYB would also take great care of the puppies - give all appropriate vaccination and de-worming , etc...

All of this said - I must say I never met one that had "all of the above" :smow:

BUT - one can see some things not done well and corners cut even in "show homes" - so really :rolffleyes:... I do not know even what to to think any more about the whole thing - to be honest LMAO


----------



## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

Jenspoo said:


> Reading through the thread posted earlier about a lady showing and having 40+ dogs makes me wonder what's the difference? What is an acceptable amount of breeding dogs?


I think its all relative. 
I have 4 intact poodles, 2 males, 2 females, I have an intact sheltie bitch that I co-own and when she is 3 she will be bred one time to appease HER breeder. 
I also have 3 intact borzoi(littermates) 

I am actively showing(or paying people to) both the poodles and the Borzoi. 

I have a un-championed, un-health tested litter on the ground right now. 

some people may call me a BYB or what have you at first glance, heck maybe even at second glance, since I "just allowed my dogs to breed, regardless of testing or how they complimented each other, or if they had titles" 

The difference is, that I give a crap about titles and testing, and stuff happens. 

I have learned from our mistake, and have begun to make changes so that it doesn't happen again. 

I purchased these dogs with the intention to champion them, test them, and then in the future, breed them and create a line of my own. 


IMO a BYB does not care about the future, just the money in their pocket. They do not care if a puppy develops a genetic disorder, has faults, or is terrible in temperment (sp?) Many BYB breeder dogs are just family pets with reproductive organs, and possibly "papers" that may or may not be purebred. 
A BYB will give little to no health guarentee, will not take their puppy back, and will usually not be there when you have a question. 


A good breeder knows their breed like the back of their hand, but is always futhering their education. They Care about their stock, and the puppies that result from breedings. They will almost always take their puppy back at any point in its life, for any reason, although they will work with you to exhaust every option before you have to give up your pet. 
They want to know where their puppies are going, they will ask a ton of questions, and make sure you understand their ideals. 
They do extensive research regarding pedigrees, conditions common to the breed, and are active in the breed community. 
. 

They may or may not show, but they do test. 

They care about the future, not just about making puppies. 




There are such things as "Champion mills" breeders who have expensive, big name kennels and churn out tons of dogs a year, and finish a good number of them, but this is more for their own ego than for the future of the breed. 

These are my opinions, different people will have different views


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What about professional handlers? I mean in order for it to be worth it to them they have to show quite a few dogs and as we all know poodles are high maintenance even for a professional person. Many handlers have their own dogs and puppies as well. How can one thing be worse than another? I get that testing is important for the future of the breed but that is not the end all to proving someone a good breeder. I think that some line needs to be drawn and instead of putting these breeders and handlers on a pedestal because they health test and show, they need to be held accountable just like a byb. The unfortunate thing is if you speak out, you are black listed so there is a lot of peer pressure to keep quiet about things that are wrongly being done. I'm tired of seeing dogs that do not deserve a champion title in front of their names have one just because of who owns the kennel or who they hired to show the dog. In order for any breed to move forward in a positive way, health, temperament, and structure (proper structure not host grooming competitions) needs to be judged appropriately and all of the stupid games and political BS that comes with showing needs to become a thing of the past. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Too often people use showing and breeding dogs as a personal confirmation about themselves and power over others. Look at the breeder from Whispering Pines and how she talked about valid puppy buyers and their questions. She felt a power over them and a validation to herself as a person through her dogs in having something that someone else wanted and only SHE could provide. Yet she sat there day after day with her dogs trapped in their own filth, no food and water, and did nothing all the while on her high horse.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> This is a very good question. How many breeding dogs are acceptable? This is sort of like "bad art". I can't define it, but I sure know it when I see it! For me personally, at this stage in my life, I know that 3 Standards in my home is my limit. This is the number of dogs I can resonably groom, train and show.
> 
> What separates BYB from good breeder? My personal thoughts.....
> 
> ...


The amount of dogs for me is tricky question. I am confortable buying a from a bigger breeder the same way I am with a smaller scale one. Like Kspoo said many of these top breeders are going to have well over 5 dogs ...... they have them with handlers , co owners or paid help at their kennel. It just depends on the set up. If the bigger scale breeder has Paid help or family helping take care of the dogs , I see no problem with it. I know a lot of breeders I talk to have more than 5 dogs and they are very honest their dogs are taken care of and you can visit their house any time you want ( all breeds) I have talked to many breeders) 

IMo what sets a BYB from a good breeder comes down to Ethics and animal welfare. BYB usually breed for money and breed bitches over and over with out breaks, They usually breed very young and the dogs are not fully health tested when bred. ( I am very sick of people saying their stock is fully health tested and their bitch is only 14 months having puppies .... if your bitch is not OFA on hips the its not FULLY health tested PERIOD, Most of these types of breeders are saying pre lims this pre lims that. ) I guess I just do not understand what is the rush in breeding ......

A good breeder will have great ethics , understand their line and dogs. They will be animal welfarist ! This means they are talking VERY VERY good care of their breeding stock and are not doing random breedings. Everything is planned out , they cull ( neuter spay) the weakest dogs out of their line and only want to improve it. They are HONEST period ... if you start asking a breeder questions and they give you wrong answers or decide they do not want to disclose something to you then IMO they are just as bad as the BYB's. I feel its VERY important to get referals ( other breeder referals not just pet buyers ...)

I 1000% agree with cbrand ( in red) If a poodle breeder is boosting and gloating about UKC wins and only shows UKC I think this is a red flag NOT unless they breed partis and only had partis. I know a parti breeder who shows her partis in UKC but shows her solids in AKC. If you have a solid poodle and are showing UKC IMO its a joke....... If its for practice thats fine lol


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

At this point there are breeders that meet my standards and breeders that don't. When I look into a breeder I look at:

Do they show in AKC

Are they CH most of their dogs or just one or two of them

Are they using the best stud or just the closest

How much thought are they putting into their breedings

How long does it take their dogs to finish

How many dogs *total* do they have (there is no magic number here)

How many colors, breeds or varieties are the involved in

Are the dogs well taken care of

Are they doing the *proper* health testing (not just hips and eyes)

How many litters do they have a year

How long have they been in it

Do they view their dogs as things or family members

Have the sold or bred dogs to BYB dogs or Doodles

Is the breeder friendly and approachable

Are they charging what their dogs are worth (cost should reflect the breeder's investment, I'm quite put off by a breeder in my area charging $2000 for puppies out an unfinished, unproven bitch)

Are they requiring a puppy application (I don't care for these at all; I want to talk to the breeder and I think that's a much better way for both sides to get the info they need)

There is a lot more, but those are the basics. People throw labels around too much and there isn't a magical formula to it. You can't look at one thing and make a decision either, you have to take the whole picture into account.


----------



## Reesmom (Feb 4, 2010)

Well said HC. That's a good start on it IMO.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Harley_chik said:


> At this point there are breeders that meet my standards and breeders that don't. When I look into a breeder I look at:
> 
> Do they show in AKC
> 
> ...


I like this  

In the red is VERY important to me ! If the breeder is nasty and rude why bother ? I always do this when shopping, If the people inside dont say hi to me when i walk in or try to help me then why should I give them my money ?


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Emmm.... I think we completely digressed from the original question LOL

What makes a* BYB *an OK breeder LOL

Roxy - you are absolutely right about no. of dogs with Co-ownership - that is completely another matter . 

I was referring about "how many dogs are in one place" : ))) 

NOBODY can exercise, socialize and keep more than 5-6 spoos groomed regularly and IN the house comfortably and also spend real, quality time with them , JMO 

If they have 10 additional dogs out with co-owners, handlers , fosters and so on - that is completely OK - of course LOL 

I had a an acquaintance who was a "good BYB" IMO. He bread Huskies and those dogs are really very independent breed and do not need a ton of grooming or human socializing - although he provided a ton of that also. He was actively involved in sledding competitions - had 4 adults and a litter maybe every 3 years to get at least 2 new pups for HIMSELF - rest were placed with friends and family and occasional buyer for 500 $. He did all health testing required for a Husky breed, new it all about AKC standard for his breed and strived to adhere even though some other qualities were very important for an active sled dog (they looked great but were excellent performers also) . No dogs ever had accidental breeding and were kept inside, unless exercised or in training. 

So - back to original question - is there such a thing as a "good BYB" - IMO , there is.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't see anything wrong with that man's breeding practices wishpoo. I think they are better than many.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

The breeder who invited me to her home had 7 immaculate white Spoos. One was in full show coat and a handler was showing her ringside. They all seemed very healthy and happy to me. They weren't crated for long periods of time and I was told they slept in her bed at night. Just sayin.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

to me the term BYB means someone who 

although may have a small # of dogs and may have dogs in good shape

1- breeds with no thought to the dog being produced- ie no testing. no matching dog to bitch looking at strengths and faults. doesn't prove the dog in ny ring- conformation, gility etc 
2- breeds unregistered dogs or dogs registered not in a major club (IE the 'rare breeds association..." and breeds crosses (and right now that's a lot of flyball people for me- these border stafies are driving me NUTS) 
3-does not care what type of home the dog goes to- and does not try to match the puppy to the buyer


a good small breeder sounds like your friend wishpoo
1- knows their breed nd breeds to improve producing as good as the parents if not better
2-registers their dogs, and pays attention to the bloodlines being used
3-finds good homes and matches puppy to buyer
4-does appropriate testing on their breed. TO me this means 'to the norm' not all breeds do a lot of testing- some very work based ones do less then others. 
5- stands by their dogs- does the best they cn to insure pups they have bred always have home nd do not end up in shelters.
6- have their dogs as part of their family- time in the house- time on the 'couch/bed/lap etc' 

puppy mills- are like the BYB but do not give adaquet care to their animals and breed on a grand scale producing more and more litters purely for the income


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with Nevar. 

I am really getting tired of "showing" being part of the "difference" between a BYB and a good breeder. There can be lots of reasons people do not show, from phobias to past experience with the politicalness (is that a word?) of it all. This business with Whispering Pines should be proof enough that because one shows, it does not make them a good or caring breeder. But, if finding a breeder who shows is high on your priority list, THIS could be the type of breeder you COULD be dealing with.

I do not show, after having been involved in it for years and watching the transformation of the world of conformation shows with handlers being the norm, and all of the stuff that goes with that. But I can guarantee, you will never see photos of my home like the ones we have seen this week.


I am sure there are people on here who consider me a back yard breeder because I breed reds and do not show. I however have a different opinion. My puppies are going into show homes (Brandi) and homes where rally and/or obedience/agilty titles could be in the future (Lucy) and CGC's (Betty-Jo and Jenny). I may look at showing my Winnow boy depending on how he matures. I research pedigrees to try to breed the best matches to my girls, to bring great health and improved structure to the table.

For me the differences are:

How many litters do they produce a year?
Do they do health testing (with proof) on their breeding dogs?
Do they reach out of their general vicinity to find GREAT mates for their dogs, who will improve the quality of the pups they are producing?
Do they keep their retired breeding dogs to live a good and well deserved life of leisure with them, or do they re-home them?
Can they answer all questions you have about Poodles in general?
Can they answer all questions about their dogs specifically?
Do their dogs live in the home, or are they kennel dogs?
Are their puppies raised in the home, in a clean area, or are they raised in a kennel, outbuilding or in the yard?
Do they feed the puppies good quality puppy food?
Are their puppies registered?

There are lots of diamonds in the rough, people findiing their way around things and trying. There are others who present themselves as great breeders who should be selling cars instead of dogs.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

if i know more about the breed than the breeder, then they are a back yard breeder.
if they just take two full blooded dogs and breed them to make some money ... ugh and double ugh.

i don't care if the dogs are home raised or kenneled. i would like to know the dogs are kept clean and healthy and taken care of and the goal of the breeder to ethically improve the breed and to spay/neuter those who aren't up to those standards. 

my cairns are both akc registered and sold as limited pet quality (they have white on their chest which is a "flaw") and so does my spoo, who is akc registered, but sold w/ full registry (she does have parti genes in her line) ... but i have no intention of ever breeding her. i got as my baby friend.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not show, after having been involved in it for years and watching the transformation of the world of conformation shows with handlers being the norm, and all of the stuff that goes with that.


One does not have to show in conformation to prove her dogs. Why not show in obedience, agility, tracking etc?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> One does not have to show in conformation to prove her dogs. Why not show in obedience, agility, tracking etc?


One needs to have relatively easy access to clubs to train their dogs for such events. When you live in the rural parts of Canada or in the USA, you have to sometimes travel great distances to get to these things. Not always practical or easy.

Illness can stop people from doing these things as well. I have read about a breeder who is in a wheelchair. She is breeding lovely dogs, but I am sure being in a wheelchair does not make performance events a reality for her. I HAVE read stories about people in wheelchairs who DO these types of activities, but it is not always possible or practical. It depends entirely on ones personal situation and circumstances around these things.

I do not judge people's ability to breed great dogs based on their ability or inablity to enter their dogs in judged events, regardless of what they are. I am more interested in their history in the breed, what their pups have gone on to do, and the overall health of their dogs and the pups they have been producing. And their ethics and the way they treat prospective clients is VERY important to me as well.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> One needs to have relatively easy access to clubs to train their dogs for such events. When you live in the rural parts of Canada or in the USA, you have to sometimes travel great distances to get to these things. Not always practical or easy.


I just want to say that I trained Sabrina all the way through Open in my backyard and used two tiki torches and a piece of cardboard as my jumps. In Novice, I was able to get a CD title in one 3 day weekend show so it was not as though it took a lot of time out of my schedule. Admittedly.... utility has been more difficult. 




> Illness can stop people from doing these things as well. I have read about a breeder who is in a wheelchair. She is breeding lovely dogs, but I am sure being in a wheelchair does not make performance events a reality for her. I HAVE read stories about people in wheelchairs who DO these types of activities, but it is not always possible or practical. It depends entirely on ones personal situation and circumstances around these things.


I personally have trained and shown in obedience along side of three women who are all in wheel chairs. Two of them show Goldens and one shows a Rotti. I don't know how far Deb has gotten with her Golden (I'm sure Open at least). I showed against the Rotti in Open (she got 3rd place with a score in the low 190s) and I have showed against Pat her her Golden numerous times.... most recently in February in Utility. Pat has one leg of her Utility title which is more than I can say.

I guess I my gold standard for a breeder is that they are involved with Poodles in more ways than just breeding.


----------



## TZel (Apr 3, 2010)

What about 4H?


----------



## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

first, i have to say, i'm impressed and overwhelmed by the amount of knowledge that is contained in all these eMails. i read them like i am taking a course, which, in some way, i am. 

i've said it before and i say it again: i am green, a novice, but a novice with a very strong desire to someday breed in a very small way just for the love of the breed. and i will health test cause now i totally understand why.

based on this, i would like to contribute as a consumer and not someone so learned in the field. most puppies sold by the 1,000's of breeders out there, will be bought as pets. many people don't have the time to show dogs and take that kind of demand into their already crazy lives. the average person wouldn't even know (& some may not really care) if the dog they purchase meets akc standards as far as conformation is concerned. they will love their dog if the eyes are set to close or too far, tail is set too high or too low, lenght is not equal to height, etc. however, they would be heartbroken if their 2 year old dies of a genetic disorder that was not disclosed to them. when the mildly educated consumer buys a dog, they view the environment and the temperment and whether the dog will fullfill the purpose they need it for: companion for a child, unconditonal love for an elderly person, a happy extension to their family. they need to be comfortable with the person who bred the dog. they need to feel they are honestly being dealt with. when i looked for my spoo, all i really knew was NOT to buy from a pet store and ask about the health history. mind you, i worked for a vet for 7 years so i actually had more knowledge than the average person. i didn't care my dog was not AKC registered. i cared that the person i spoke to was friendly, helpful, not intimidating. she wasn't the 1st breeder i spoke to - many had an attitude and i didn't get a comfortable feeling.

maybe i rambled, but in summary, the health & temperment are the first things an average consumer thinks of. showing or not showing for me, is a personal thing for the breeder. i am not swayed just because a dog has a title or working towards one. if i'm wrong thinking this way, then please enlighten me.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Jessie's Mom said:


> ...the health & temperment are the first things an average consumer thinks of. showing or not showing for me, is a personal thing for the breeder. i am not swayed just because a dog has a title or working towards one. if i'm wrong thinking this way, then please enlighten me.


Thank you, Jessie's Mom, for so eloquently stating how the average (and maybe even slightly above average) pet owner feels. I too am very concerned with health and temperment. I also want my pup to be beautiful so we get stopped on the street by total strangers who "ooooo" and "ahhhh" over her (which actually DOES happen!) :lol: But whether or not she comes from "titled" parents actually means very little to me... What means MORE and is EXCITING to ME - is that I'm going to see what *I* can do with HER in certain performance events. 

I know there are breeders who show, but that would not sway me in the least when I do my research, purchase, etc... It may make MORE of a difference to other breeders who want to use a "titled" stud... but it matters not a whit to me!


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Thank you, Jessie's Mom, for so eloquently stating how the average (and maybe even slightly above average) pet owner feels. I too am very concerned with health and temperment. I also want my pup to be beautiful so we get stopped on the street by total strangers who "ooooo" and "ahhhh" over her (which actually DOES happen!) :lol: But whether or not she comes from "titled" parents actually means very little to me... What means MORE and is EXCITING to ME - is that I'm going to see what *I* can do with HER in certain performance events.
> 
> I know there are breeders who show, but that would not sway me in the least when I do my research, purchase, etc... It may make MORE of a difference to other breeders who want to use a "titled" stud... but it matters not a whit to me!


Showing a Poodle in obedience or conformation is a way to demonstrate that a breeding dog has good, solid temperament. I have seen plenty of Poodles who flunk out of Obedience and Conformation because they are too nervous or dog aggressive or they simply have zero attention spans. Who wants this kind of Poodle put back into the gene pool?

Frankly I think pet owners do want a well put together dog that does conform standard. Form follows function and while people may not be able to correctly identify faults in a Poodle, they can surely sense them. Put my Sabrina up against a BYB Poodle and you can instantly see the difference. She is prettier and better balanced. The eye sees that.

Most of the competitive Obedience and Agility folks I know do seek out puppies from titled parents. I think this is because they have found that the apple does not fall far from the tree and they are looking to maximize their chances of getting a solid prospect.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> I just want to say that I trained Sabrina all the way through Open in my backyard and used two tiki torches and a piece of cardboard as my jumps. In Novice, I was able to get a CD title in one 3 day weekend show so it was not as though it took a lot of time out of my schedule. Admittedly.... utility has been more difficult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A few years ago @ the eukanuba show ( in Long beach) I saw a Woman with no arms in Obedience with her Dobie she made the news. It was amazing to read her story and watch a clip of her in action.


----------



## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> I also want my pup to be beautiful so we get stopped on the street by total strangers who "ooooo" and "ahhhh" over her (which actually DOES happen!) :lol:
> 
> yes, we too get stopped all the time by total strangers commenting on how beautiful jessie is. and she is. and people ask 'is she a show dog' and i say, no she's just our beautiful jessie. however, again, these people don't know if she meets all the akc standards for her breed, what they are saying is that her stature and her temperment are eye catching. truth is, i do wish i had a less hectic life so that i could do more with her. just taking her for training created even a deeper bond between her & i. she's my shadow and watches and reacts to my every mood and tone of voice whether i'm speaking to her or not. if i had the time, i would definitely do some agility training with her, or even get her certified as a therapy dog because she is so wonderful. time is the key factor. however, not doing these things wouldn't make us bad breeders. the love we have for our dogs and the caring we would give those pups would make them desirable pets for sure.
> 
> right now, lol, my husband, who said when i asked for the pup, "i buy, you walk", LOVES taking her out for walks - he says she's a "babe magnet". lol men!! lol


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Who wants this kind of Poodle put back into the gene pool?


 Indeed!



cbrand said:


> Frankly I think pet owners do want a well put together dog that does conform standard. Form follows function and while people may not be able to correctly identify faults in a Poodle, they can surely sense them.


'Form follows function' cannot be said enough in any kind of animal husbandry. Lack of symmetry, etc, are often tied to other genetic defects.


----------



## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

"the average person wouldn't even know (& some may not really care) if the dog they purchase meets akc standards as far as conformation is concerned. they will love their dog if the eyes are set to close or too far, tail is set too high or too low, lenght is not equal to height, etc. however, they would be heartbroken if their 2 year old dies of a genetic disorder that was not disclosed to them." - Jessie's Mom

As a consumer who buys a puppy as a companion, I used to have this outlook. It was ignorant and way too trusting. My puppy and I suffered her whole life of 16 years due to genetic and structural problems. We loved each other dearly, but oh how I wish we didn't have to suffer the way we did.

Now that I know better. I realize that I don't have to understand the genetics behind the purchase or be able to recite the AKC standards, or be able to pick out who the parents were, but my breeder better be able to!

As a prospective breeder yourself, understand that the genetic testing is just the tip of the iceberg. Obviously, if a dog has vWD or Addisons, you really don't need to see what is below the water to know this dog should not be breed.

AKC standards, thankfully for poodles, actually provide a good benchmark for several things pet owners want in their companion. There are several other things to consider when breeding that can have catastrophic effect if not found before the dogs are put together.

Do you want a dog that can walk/run/jump through their entire life? 
Better check patellas, hip structure, and verify that length X height is appropriate. The structure of the legs and how they fit into the hip is a big issue here. 

What about a dog whose chest is way too big or too small? Either they will be too heavy for their legs to support them on jumps or they will not be able to have endurance due to lack of breath.

If the dog is too long, it could encourage arthritis, ect.

Do you want a dog that can eat without choking or die after having a large meal?
Better know the parents tendencies for bloat, or the structure of the dog's bite. Does the dog's head have the appropriate width?

I may have misquoted some structural elements and how they relate to a dog's performance because I am not a breeder. The point I am trying to make is that the AKC standards, knowing the lineage, and genetic testing all play an extremely important role in making a good quality pet.

The last thing I hope a really 'friendly' breeder would do is pump out puppies because they are cute and really 'loving'. Yet, we see this all the time because these people are more interested in the money, not whether you get a good quality pet. There is a lot more that goes into a pet than what you might know. 

I rather pay more to a tested responsible breeder and save on heartache and vet bills.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

In my experience a BYB is NEVER honest they will lie, con and trick you into thinking you're making the best decision ever as long as they get the money in cash its all good to them

Elphie is from a BYB 
I know this because 
The woman did NO health testing at all she kept the puppies in her basement and theres a whole laundry list of reasons why the woman I bought my dog from was just dumb
Elphies mom was 11.5mo old when she had Elphie 
Elphabas dad was 16mo old... that is a huge NO in my book now but when I was looking for a poodle then. I didn't have this awesome resource that I do now I just wanted a poodle at any cost...and I may pay that price sometime down the road
But lucky for me I ended up with a dog that I care about and that I've bonded with

but for me a good breeder is someone who is Honest 100%
if they know that their dog has a relative that has a genetic disorder I want them to tell me that
I want to see how they interact with the puppies
I want to know what their intentions are for their line down the road
etc.

I think showing is an important aspect to look at especially for breeding stock but I don't rank it as a disqualifying thing for me personally 
I think its all personal preference when it comes to a good breeder if you feel you're dealing with someone you like and that you'll be close to that person for a long time ((12-15 years)) thats awesome

and thats how I feel about the breeder I'm going to get my next poodle from
she may not show her dogs in conformation but shes been nothing but kind to me she does all the testing I'd like to see done on a dog, shes also knowledgeable about her breed which is a HUGE + in my book


----------



## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

As a consumer who buys a puppy as a companion, I used to have this outlook. It was ignorant and way too trusting. My puppy and I suffered her whole life of 16 years due to genetic and structural problems. We loved each other dearly, but oh how I wish we didn't have to suffer the way we did.

Now that I know better. I realize that I don't have to understand the genetics behind the purchase or be able to recite the AKC standards, or be able to pick out who the parents were, but my breeder better be able to!

As a prospective breeder yourself, understand that the genetic testing is just the tip of the iceberg. Obviously, if a dog has vWD or Addisons, you really don't need to see what is below the water to know this dog should not be breed.

I rather pay more to a tested responsible breeder and save on heartache and vet bills.[/QUOTE]

i agree, please don't think i'm saying it's ok to "pump out pups" b/c they are cute. i am 100% against that. again, i am coming from the "not so educated" consumer's standpoint. IMO, the integrity of the breeder is more important than or equally as important as the questions the consumer needs to ask. the consumer has the obligation to educate themselves as much as possible in order to reduce the risks of not getting what they want. the AKC website tells the consumer what to ask from a breeder b4 they consider purchasing their pups. 
you know, as in everything in life, there are wolves in sheep clothing. there will always be people will take advantage of anyone for the purpose of their own advancement. 
however, i stick to my first point: health testing and being disciminate which dogs they breed is the first thing i would look for in a breeder. i want someone who will follow my dog the rest of his/her life with a serious interest as to how well they are doing. i still have to say that if that quality a breeder doesn't show, or do agility, or obedience, it doesn't necessarily say they are not a good breeder.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

So what about the people who show their dogs in conformation, but "fudge" a little with haircuts, grooming etc... to make the dog "appear" longer or shorter in the body, more or less neck, deeper or shallower in the chest, etc... and then when their dog gets their championship because the handler and groomers were fantastic; the owner/breeder goes ahead and breeds that "titled" dog who isn't quite as perfect as the general consumer might guess (and perhaps no more perfect than the breeder's dog who DOESN'T happen to show?) :rolffleyes:

I will repeat that, to me, it is not important if my (current or future) dog's parents are titled because it really doesn't mean anything to me... I'm sure the people who've been involved with showing for many years believe that everyone should put the same value on titles - but I'm not sure that's realistic in the big picture. 

I agree that poorly bred dogs MAY have structural problems down the road (and not all puppies born to untitled parents are "poorly bred"!!), but I also believe that they may NOT have problems, too... it's all dependent on many factors. Meau is not a good structural example of a standard poodle (her attitude and temperment are AWESOME, though!) She was poorly bred by a horrible woman who couldn't care less about where her puppies are now. Meau's sire was a brown standard and her dam was an apricot/cream mini (although the "breeder" told us she was standard - I'm thinking that was one of those infamous "backyard breeder lies"!) zero health testing, zero registration papers (unless we wanted to pay more $$ and they were probably just CKC anyway) Meau is a poster child for backyard breeders!

We know and understand that she may have health problems (beyond the seizures she experienced when she was a baby) but we can also hope that she lives a long healthy life without issue - there isn't a guarantee either way (and I'm a glass half full kind of gal anyway and I always plan for the best case scenario!!)  

In contrast, Lucy came from fully tested parents and from a breeder who has been involved with standard poodles for almost as long as I've been alive (sorry Arreau!  ) including conformation showing many years ago. I trust her to know if a dog is comfortably within the conformation standards - I know she's not a JUDGE, but judges are only human too - and with the well-known show ring politics; I can't say I trust THEM more than I trust HER!

Wow! I just read this back and boy did I ever ramble! Hopefully it's understandable to everyone!


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

To understand the importance of showing, you must first understand the purpose of showing. It's not just something you "do" to get a title--it's a formal way of evaluating breeding stock. Every physical and temperamental aspect of the breed standard exists for a reason. Obedience and agility are other ways to evaluate physical structure and temperament. Ideally for me, a breeder's dogs should be involved in both conformation and some type of performance event, or even just getting the CGC. Whether it's the breeder personally doing it, or a professional handler, or a puppy buyer--that doesn't matter to me. As long as the dogs in the line are proving their salt, that is what makes me stand up and take notice.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> To understand the importance of showing, you must first understand the purpose of showing. It's not just something you "do" to get a title--it's a formal way of evaluating breeding stock. Every physical and temperamental aspect of the breed standard exists for a reason. Obedience and agility are other ways to evaluate physical structure and temperament. Ideally for me, a breeder's dogs should be involved in both conformation and some type of performance event, or even just getting the CGC. Whether it's the breeder personally doing it, or a professional handler, or a puppy buyer--that doesn't matter to me. As long as the dogs in the line are proving their salt, that is what makes me stand up and take notice.


I completely agree with this. We always say we want to see titles at both ends, one to prove their "beauty" and one to prove their "brains".


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Me three ; ) !!!!


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> To understand the importance of showing, you must first understand the purpose of showing. It's not just something you "do" to get a title--it's a formal way of evaluating breeding stock. Every physical and temperamental aspect of the breed standard exists for a reason. Obedience and agility are other ways to evaluate physical structure and temperament. Ideally for me, a breeder's dogs should be involved in both conformation and some type of performance event, or even just getting the CGC. Whether it's the breeder personally doing it, or a professional handler, or a puppy buyer--that doesn't matter to me. As long as the dogs in the line are proving their salt, that is what makes me stand up and take notice.


While that is the essence of showing dogs, it's not always the motivation behind everyone that does show. And yeah it's a political game so to say it's solely about the structure and breeding stock evaluation isn't realistic. We hope that we can be safely reassured that if a dog has gained it's championship it's based on the quality and merits of that particular dog and not based on some relationship that the person showing it has created. I try to be a realist and I think that anything that is as competitive as dog showing tends to be can have some fallacy involved with it. Thank goodness people are starting to be more informed and with the availability of testing results on sites like OFA, it's going to make breeders accountable for their practices. Of course sites like this help a ton as well.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Wishpoo's I wouldn't consider your friend to be a BYB at all. He may not show his dogs in AKC conformation but he proves his dogs by working them. I think that is even better. 

There is a solution to almost every obstacle you listed Arreau, the number one being a handler. I would think w/ your hears of experience in the breed and all your contacts, there is at least one person you would trust to show your dogs. 

I'm sick of hearing a small minority of bad show people being used to justify just producing puppies. So what if some people use wigs, hairspray or top handlers, that's not a reason to throw your hands up and give in to being a BYB. As Cbrand mentioned there are other things to compete in besides conformation. 

As for the Whispering Pines woman. I knew it would only be a matter of time before she would be presented as a typical show person by people who *choose* not to show. First of all she didn't show in AKC, but a cheaper, easier venue. From what I've read, the last time she showed herself was in 2006 and she was excused from the ring b/c her dogs were in such poor condition. Many of the titled dogs she was breeding were purchased, leased or even (allegedly) stolen after they were titled by someone else. She may have called herself a "show breeder" but it didn't take much digging to see that was not the case. Arreau, you yourself said you hoped other people wouldn't assume all breeders opperated like Mrs. Dokken, yet you are doing just that by insuating that that is how all *show breeders *operate.

No one on this forum has ever said "if they show, they are a good breeder." In fact, the opposite has been said many times by those of us who value showing. It's one of many things to consider, IMO. From what I've seen many, many of those who choose not show are often cutting corners elsewhere. They may be offering 10 or more litters a year, breeding their dogs back to back to back and hiding it. They may also be breeding stud dogs that aren't fully tested or even have prelims suggesting they may develop some serious health issues in the future. 

I tried very hard to be diplomatic in my first post, but I'm getting sick of the double standards and hypocrisy.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Wishpoo's I wouldn't consider your friend to be a BYB at all. He may not show his dogs in AKC conformation but he proves his dogs by working them. I think that is even better.
> 
> There is a solution to almost every obstacle you listed Arreau, the number one being a handler. I would think w/ your hears of experience in the breed and all your contacts, there is at least one person you would trust to show your dogs.
> 
> ...


No double standards or hypocrisy at this end. I did not say ALL SHOW PEOPLE..I said some. Just like there are SOME good people breeding for pets, because they test, choose great quality dogs to breed and breed to... and SOME who are not good at all because they pump out many litters a year, do no testing, breed to anything that is fertile.... Katie Dokken is a sad example, and I think, hope and pray she is in the tiny minority of show breeders. I would hate to think there are too many like her out there. But it can and does happen. Obviously I am not rolling all show breeders into the same ball of wax or Brandi would not be living where she is, in a show home, with a show career in her future.

I know several people I would trust to handle my dogs, but I would not ever send a dog out to a handler. If I go with a handler it will be someone I will meet up with at shows, hand my dog off to them at the show, and return home with my dog. There have been horror stories about what can happen when placing a dog in the care of a handler (Rebelstar kennels stroy re: Alan Waterman). I do not trust too many people to care for my dogs as I do, so it would only ever happen if the dog could be handed off the day of the show. And again, I know that what happened to the Rebelstar dog is a rare occorrance, but I am not risking it with one of my dogs.

I would never mean to imply or insinuate that there are very many show breeders out there like Katie Dokken. I happen to have quite a few friends in the show world and know what their practices are. I also know that the idea of showing, after the years of being involved in it, is not something that gets me excited anymore. Is it okay for my dog to be cheated with as long as I don't do it? Not in my eyes. Is it an issue? Yes. Is this the way I would ever want to win? No. If I have a puppy arrive from Iceland, who, because he is black, makes me think I would have a chance of winning in the show ring without cheating, I will assess the situation with my agoraphobia and if it is under control, maybe try my hand at showing again. But, it is not that important to me that I do it, or that any dog I own or breed become a CHAMPION. To be honest, if I ever do it, part of the reason would be to prove something to some of the members here and show them my dogs are not pieces of crap and that they and I are not what/who some of you think we are. I know what an incredible effort it would be to champion one of the reds. I am aware that conformationally they are not yet the quallity of the blacks and whites (which is why I am bringing black into my breeding program) and the fact that IMO there is colour bias. Maybe in a couple or few generations the reds I am producing will be competing in the conformation ring with me at the end of the leash.

Harleychik, you seem to have a bone to pick with me and I am sorry you might feel that way. I do not consider myself a backyard breeder, nor did I consider my Mother a backyard breeder. We both had many years of experience in the show world and over 45 years experience in the breed. We could/can both pick out a great quality puppy from a litter or my mother would not have asked for my assistance in choosing Thinker from his litter and he would not have gone on to produce the progeny he produced. Is he a champion? No. Went to a smattering of shows, usually exhibition only. but he has sired some remarkable puppies who have gone on to have illustrious show, performance careers. Does he have a performance title? No. But tons of his kids do and some of their owners are members here. The same will eventually happen with my pups too, whether or not their parents are titled in any area. Hopefully it will begin with Brandi in the conformation ring and Lucy in performace events.

BTW...how can a breeder breed back to back and hide it? They may not talk about it, but if someone wants to find this sort of thing out, it can easily be sorted out by checking a female's registered name on Poodle Health registry and click on descendants. Or call the AKC or CKC and tell them you are looking at a puppy from a specific females, give the registered name of the female and ask when she has had litters. The CKC has given me this info before. I have just told them I want to know this female has not been over bred. Unless a breeder is selling unregistered pups, the litters and birthdates will all be listed with the CKC or AKC. And if a breeder sells unregistered pups and is caught, they risk their membership to these clubs, a publiic reprimand in the clubs newsletter and a hefty fine. Not worth the risk to their membership or their reputation.

I am not the only breeder who does not show, and I am not going to defend my ailment, my dogs or my feelings on the matter of showing again. There are loads of good breeders who either cannot or have no inclination or haven't the time to show or title their dogs. But, good, healthy, great tempered puppies are being produced out of their kennels nevertheless. Everyone who breeds and doesn't show is not a BYB!


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I openly disagree w/ you one time and I "have a bone to pick w/ you"? Seriously? I've never been anything but polite to you and I've always comended you for being honest about your program. I even comiserated w/ you via PM when certain other red breeders seemed to have it out for you. Do I agree w/ the fact that you don't prove your dogs in any way? No, but that's my right and you don't seem to have any problem selling your puppies. Have you done other things I disagree with? Yes, but you never hid anything and I do appreciate your honesty on that issue. I've never once said that your dogs were crap, publicly or privately. I was one of the first to complitment you on Brandi and wish you luck w/ her show career. 

Again, no one, not one person on this forum has ever said "titles= ethical breeder." 

There may be many people who are fine w/ going w/ a breeder who doesn't show but I'm not one of them. Fortunately, I've found a breeder that does meet my requirements.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Harley_chik said:


> There may be many people who are fine w/ going w/ a breeder who doesn't show but I'm not one of them. Fortunately, I've found a breeder that does meet my requirements.


I am still agreeing with Cbrand , I think if your not showing DO something with your dogs to prove themselves.... 

HC suggestion of a handler is probably the best idea if you feel you can't show your self. Other breeders said they don't trust handlers ( IMO its like an excuse also ) Because you can do ring side which the dog does no live with the handler. All you do is have them groom dog and then show them. This is what we plan to do with Enzo ringside ONLY. 

From my experience usually the breeder who don't show do not have AKC standard ( conformational) dogs and sorry if that hurts any ones feelings but this is what I see. Its rare to find a show dog from non-show breeder. I see it all the time in puppy ads the breeder claims show quality but when you look at puppy its a hot mess. 

I too prefer to get a dog from a show breeder because I am focused on correct movement and structure.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I am still agreeing with Cbrand , I think if your not showing DO something with your dogs to prove themselves....
> 
> HC suggestion of a handler is probably the best idea if you feel you can't show your self. Other breeders said they don't trust handlers ( IMO its like an excuse also ) Because you can do ring side which the dog does no live with the handler. All you do is have them groom dog and then show them. This is what we plan to do with Enzo ringside ONLY.
> 
> ...



We are all entitled to our own opinion based on our knowledge or lack of it, and based on our experiences which can colour our opinions. And things can change ones opinion too.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Its rare to find a show dog from non-show breeder. I see it all the time in puppy ads the breeder claims show quality but when you look at puppy its a hot mess.
> 
> I too prefer to get a dog from a show breeder because I am focused on correct movement and structure.


Oh *ell yeah :wacko:- it is hard to find a show-quality in a show -line litter LMAO !!!! And one or 2 that are of that quality go to show homes - the rest can be a far from being "AKC title worthy" by a mile !!!!! We saw one poor example recently here : (. 

I also do not count UKC as a title *at all*,unless spoo is a parti and has no other venue to compete in the ring. Still, because of that most parti are also very far from being correct because they are never compared with AKC Ch dogs in the ring. This said - I have a soft spot for parti-spoos and I wish it is otherwise : ((.

I think that it is absolutely not fair to take one "bad apple" (more than bad in this case - actually not even an apple - better said a poop spit out of hell onto this earth) as an example of "how some show people operate" : (((. I am sure that lined up side by side - one would have disproportionate number of BYBs who mistreat their dogs in comparison with show breeders - that can not even be compared IMO.

If anybody - I "am breathing down their poor necks" all the time LOL , like some "Poodle Zorro" crazy lady and incidences like this are such a rarity that is it silly to even take them of example of anything at all. 

Crazy handlers out there - heck yeah !!!! Maybe one in 10,000 - I suppose we have more crazy teachers % -vise so do we stop sending our kids to school ??? NO - we make sure we know what is going on in the school and watch like hawks over our kids !!! OR - we home-school our kids. 

All in all - decision to show or not should not be based on some isolated bad incidents. IMO 

Is showing important - ABSOLUTELY !

Is that the ONLY venue a dog can be proven as a good representative - no!

There are many sporting events where a dog can prove his good working structure ,intelligence and temperament , but again - one has to keep the "looks" in check ALWAYS !!!!


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think performance is wonderful but based on the reading I've done, performance dogs and show dogs aren't always one in the same. The structure for a good competitive agility dog most often isn't going to show well in the conformation ring. Just like with many of the spaniels, there are bench and field lines for that very reason. Also drive is going to be different with a dog that excels in agility and other sports (not to include obedience) than conformation.

I do think conformation showing is important. I'm just jaded by the dealings I've had with breeders. I think when I'm in my 50s and kids are no longer my first priority, I will step lightly into that venue but for now, in my 30s, I just don't have the time or desire to jump into shark infested waters.


----------



## Jenspoo (Mar 25, 2009)

Isn't conformation about having the 'best' dog so that you can breed a even 'better' dog? I dnn't think I personally would have ANY desire EVER to want to breed a dog. My guys have their pride taken care of asap. Breeding just seems so messy and scary.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I think performance is wonderful but based on the reading I've done, performance dogs and show dogs aren't always one in the same. The structure for a good competitive agility dog most often isn't going to show well in the conformation ring. Just like with many of the spaniels, there are bench and field lines for that very reason. Also drive is going to be different with a dog that excels in agility and other sports (not to include obedience) than conformation.


I don't think this is true. I think a well balanced Poodle with good structure and good drive/work ethic will always be able to do well in Conformation and in multiple performance venues.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I don't think this is true. I think a well balanced Poodle with good structure and good drive/work ethic will always be able to do well in Conformation and in multiple performance venues.


I think that's the general idea but I think there are quite a few people that would disagree with you. I personally don't care since I don't do agility and don't need a dog that can take off quickly and corner nicely.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> Oh *ell yeah :wacko:- it is hard to find a show-quality in a show -line litter LMAO !!!! And one or 2 that are of that quality go to show homes - the rest can be a far from being "AKC title worthy" by a mile !!!!! We saw one poor example recently here : (.


That is true to but you know what I mean. its unlikely to get a show dog from a BYB or person who does not show themselves. Enzo is deemed show quality for a red, now if he was black or white that would be a whole can of worms lol.

I agree with the rest of what you said also.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I think that's the general idea but I think there are quite a few people that would disagree with you. I personally don't care since I don't do agility and don't need a dog that can take off quickly and corner nicely.


Yes, but Agility is not the sole purpose of the Standard Poodle. (I'm taking the Mini out of this equation since they already routinely kick butt at agility). The Standard Poodle is a versatile dog that should be able to be successful in conformation, hunt, agility, obedience, and tracking. 

You can't focus on one event and say "this is what we should be breeding for". If we bred for agility Poodles, we would eventually lose our square outline and our upright carriage since that longer body style is more efficient in agility (look at the body type and carriage of the BC)? This is just as bad a the conformation folks who breed dog with extreme angles who motor their legs going no where.


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

*Everything has its place*

My feeling is that it depends on what you are looking for. Not everyone who wants a dog wants or cares about whether a dog is from show lines or is titled in some way. There is a huge market for people who want to enjoy certain breeds but don't really care if they are conformationally correct or if they excel at obedience or tracking, and don't want or can't pay the cost that comes with these fine dogs. I don't see anything wrong with a "backyard breeder" who loves and cares for their dogs, keeps them healthy and produces a litter or two here and there from their nontitled dogs to sell to joe plumber. Health testing is nice and commendable, but I can't really say that it is wrong for someone to have a litter without the testing as long as they don't misrepresent. Lots of people would love to have an affordable pet. I don't think the term backyard breeder should always be deragotory, as opposed to puppymiller which always is.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

thats the thing though...its a term thats meant to be derogatory 
BYB are careless and selfish...negligent is a word I'd use for them they care nothing about their dogs
I bought Elphie with "full" paperwork...not knowing what that meant when I bought it ((she never had papers to begin with the dam was on a spay contract from another breeder)) but still who sells a dog with full breeding rights to an 17yr old kid...who has no idea wtf that means?!

a hobby breeder is someone who cares about the breed, cares about the standards that they need to up hold within their breed, they health test every dog that they breed, and they only produce MAYBE 1-2 litters a year
not to mention they should know their dogs better than the back of their hands

IMO a BYB is no better than a puppymill, the only difference in my eyes is the quantity they're pumping out because you can't keep 50 dogs in your home without someone raising an eyebrow to it

and I never buy that "We want a cheap dog" stuff because we paid 15$ for our 6mo old shih tzu ((hes almost 2 now)) at a local shelter...we paid for his rabies shot then had him neutered the same day, and our lab/spoo mix was $85 which was his shots and neutering...IMO ya can't get much cheaper than that


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Jillian said:


> I don't think the term backyard breeder should always be deragotory, as opposed to puppymiller which always is.


I have to disagree with this (in my opinion, of course!) I think people who "backyard breed" aren't too many steps above puppymillers (who I believe should be SHOT!) We got my daughter's spoo from a backyard breeder... Meau was "affordable", but because the "breeder" didn't care what the hell she was breeding, and Meau suffered seizures when she was a baby! The "breeder" also didn't give a flying fig WHO purchased her puppies or what they did with the babies once they got them - Breed 'em?? SURE, no problem!! Luckily for Meau, Katy learned the importance of spay/neuter when she volunteered at the humane society (and assisted with euthanizing excess, homeless animals who had been bred by equally ignorant people as the person who bred HER puppy!) and Meau was spayed by 6 months old!

When I called this sorry excuse for a "breeder" months later to just give her an update on Meau (who we love to bits) and to let her know that Meau had been having seizures -this woman couldn't get off the phone fast enough with me - she didn't freakin' CARE that a puppy that SHE brought into this world (failing to test the parents or to even check pedigrees, PHR, etc...) had a problem. She was just afraid we might want a refund or vet fees... :wacko:

So although Katy only had to pay $350 for this backyard bred standard poodle, if she had it to do over again (and she probably WILL someday!) there is no doubt she will save the $$ she needs to get a WELL BRED pup from a RESPONSIBLE breeder who tests (and who will provide the acceptable test results to her) and ABSOULTELY NOT from some moron who just "happened" to have two intact purebred pets of each gender and just had a whim to throw them together and have puppies!! GAG!!!


----------



## blackcurls (Dec 15, 2009)

I agree with most of what you say Plumcrazy, but Responsible being the important word. My friend and I bought from a responsible, well known , revered breeder and this is what she turned out to be. However she herself was "done like a dinner". My lovely friend got the addisons dog and I got the healthy one. The pain and suffering of both my friend and the dog has been just heartbreaking to watch. We in the world of the public, associate titles and championships at shows as being a stamp of the good health and vitality and good breeding of the dog. I am learning there is little or no integrity and that belief is now a fallacy. 
I think a lot of the breeder of my dog, it is after all the second spoo I've had from her. She has offered my friend a new pup free of charge, has had her bitch and two offspring neutered as soon as she learned of the addisons connection.
So whats the answer, where do you look for a great dog?


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

You look at the long time show breeder who uses only fully tested dogs and you also check Poodle Health Registry and OFA and see what those dogs that are used for particular breeding produced so far. You look at the siblings also and look at pedigree and health issues that appeared or not in the lines. You contact references. I personally prefer to look into "repeat breeding" litter produced by mature dogs . If none of the pups in previous litter had any issues - there is really minuscule chance one will end up with a "lemon" .

That way one at least know that all possible precautions were taken and if something goes wrong - it really is not due to anybody's negligence - but a freak accident and we can not escape those ...

Breeding untested dogs is really like playing a Russian roulette IMO :smow: - and absolutely irresponsible :wacko:

Your breeder also made sure that that breeding was NEVER repeated again - which is NEVER the case with bad BYBs !!!!!!!!!!!! A major difference right there !!!!


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Breeding untested dogs is really like playing a Russian roulette IMO :smow: - and absolutely irresponsible :wacko:


I absolutely agree!!
testing is 100% necessary no excuses IMO


----------



## *tina* (Jan 3, 2010)

I'd rather pay $$$ up-front for a dog from tested parents that come from quality lines, than pay $ for a dog that is going to cost me $$$ later in vet bills. I couldn't be happier knowing that most likely my Poodle is not going to live with any debilitating problems down the road, and if it does happen, the breeder is willing to help with those kinds of costs. I will only buy from a breeder who does health testing and does some kind of performance (for lack of a better term) to prove their dogs.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

blackcurls said:


> I agree with most of what you say Plumcrazy, but Responsible being the important word. My friend and I bought from a responsible, well known , revered breeder and this is what she turned out to be. However she herself was "done like a dinner". My lovely friend got the addisons dog and I got the healthy one. The pain and suffering of both my friend and the dog has been just heartbreaking to watch. We in the world of the public, associate titles and championships at shows as being a stamp of the good health and vitality and good breeding of the dog. I am learning there is little or no integrity and that belief is now a fallacy. I think a lot of the breeder of my dog, it is after all the second spoo I've had from her. She has offered my friend a new pup free of charge, has had her bitch and two offspring neutered as soon as she learned of the addisons connection.
> So whats the answer, where do you look for a great dog?


So I don't understand? You said you like your breeder and she is responsible. From your post it sounds like she titles her dogs? Are you saying she doesn't health test?

Titling and testing dogs is never a 100% guarantee that a puppy will be free from disease. It just gives you a better chance that the pup will be healthy. It sounds like the breeder is doing all the right things, neutering the bitch and offspring, offering your friend a free pup... why are you disillusioned?


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

blackcurls said:


> I agree with most of what you say Plumcrazy, but Responsible being the important word. My friend and I bought from a responsible, well known , revered breeder and this is what she turned out to be. However she herself was "done like a dinner". My lovely friend got the addisons dog and I got the healthy one. The pain and suffering of both my friend and the dog has been just heartbreaking to watch. We in the world of the public, associate titles and championships at shows as being a stamp of the good health and vitality and good breeding of the dog. I am learning there is little or no integrity and that belief is now a fallacy.
> I think a lot of the breeder of my dog, it is after all the second spoo I've had from her. She has offered my friend a new pup free of charge, has had her bitch and two offspring neutered as soon as she learned of the addisons connection.
> So whats the answer, where do you look for a great dog?


There is no test for Addisons and while we believe it to be hereditary, we really don't know how the disorder is acquired. If you want a Poodle, you have to accept that Addisons is part of the gamble.

Your breeder did everything she could. She offered a replacement puppy and she removed any associated dogs from the gene pool.

What more do you want her to do?


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Black Curls, if it hasn't been done already, you should encourage you friend to report it to the Poodle Health Registry. Like Cbrand said there is no test and breeders have to make a decision based on reported cases of Addison's in the pedigree. 

Cbrand or anyone else who might know, are there any studies going on to determine how Addisons is passed down?


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Davis is: CGAP


----------



## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Ouch!!!! the UKC comments hurt <VBG>

I show in UKC , and have a blast! last weekend I almost forgot to gait my dog because I was watching everyone else in the ring...LOL!! 

Love the easygoing attitude of UKC. And no way is a UKC CH equal to AKC CH. altho I've seen AKC CH's that are such poor quality they can't get a U CH :-(

There are many very well balanced dogs shown in UKC.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Davis is: CGAP


Thank you very much for the info!


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

tintlet said:


> Ouch!!!! the UKC comments hurt <VBG>
> 
> I show in UKC , and have a blast! last weekend I almost forgot to gait my dog because I was watching everyone else in the ring...LOL!!
> 
> ...


I agree with Tintlet. Whether showing and winning in UKC, CKC or AKC, your dog is only as good as the competition. The UKC show in November in Ontario had three Canadian champions (standard poodles) in the competition, so I'd have to say the standard was fairly high. In UKC, standard poodles are in the Gun Dog group, so they are being judged more for their form to function as retrievers. In my opinion this is being lost in CKC and AKC, where pretty, flashy and extreme seems to be taking over. I also would have to say the obedience and rally standards are at least as high, if not higher in UKC than AKC and CKC. I've competed in all three. 
To me, a good breeder is striving to improve what they have. They will breed carefully for correct structure, good temperament and health. If they are fortunate enough to produce a show quality puppy, why would they not want to show it off in the conformation ring? Health testing is a must, but denial of the possibility of disease in the line, no matter how perfect the testing and background (PHR is a wonderful resource, but it is, by no means, a complete picture), is naive and foolish. More important is that the breeder has a plan to deal with problems, and stand by the puppy buyer should troubles arise. Success in trialing in performance events serves to prove that the puppies being produced by a breeder are intelligent and trainable, making them desirable companions.
A backyard breeder has no vision to improve the breed. They breed Fluffy to Spot because they can, which, in my opinion, is a recipe for disaster.
A puppy mill breeds solely for profit which is simply wrong
Care must be taken to spot the differences!


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Vibrant said:


> The UKC show in November in Ontario had three Canadian champions (standard poodles) in the competition, so I'd have to say the standard was fairly high. In UKC, standard poodles are in the Gun Dog group, so they are being judged more for their form to function as retrievers. In my opinion this is being lost in CKC and AKC,


Im sorry but UKC is flawed. I don't see how you can compare the two within standard poodles. UKC you can get a CH with out other poodles EVER showing up in the ring. AKC this would never happen you have to beat other dogs. 

The quality of UKC poodles vs AKC is really obvious alsohwell:

Last but not least Politics are in UKC too its not just AKC. If UKC was soooo fair and honest tell me why did a miniature poodle win a standard poodle class ? 

That is my rant for the night :smow:


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Im sorry but UKC is flawed. I don't see how you can compare the two within standard poodles. UKC you can get a CH with out other poodles EVER showing up in the ring. AKC this would never happen you have to beat other dogs.
> 
> The quality of UKC poodles vs AKC is really obvious alsohwell:
> 
> ...


Actually, a dog can get an AKC or CKC championship without competing against another poodle, by winning group placements, just the same as in UKC. 
Take a look at the Desert Reef and Tintlet websites (I could list scores of websites). They have lovely dogs, worthy of AKC Championships, but for whatever reason they choose not to show AKC. UKC may not have the big guns showing in it, but that doesn't make it useless. You are entitled to your opinion, but before you trash all UKC Ch poodles be sure you have educated yourself.
There's politics in all dog shows. I can't figure out why a mini would be entered in a standard class....perhaps it had grown taller than 15", despite its parentage. I'd be interested in knowing the details, and had I been one of the standard poodle competitors and a mini really won a standard class, I'd have lodged a complaint.


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> UKC you can get a CH with out other poodles EVER showing up in the ring.


You can that also in all FCI shows. 

But you wont get a champion title just because he is the only one, he has to also be of a good quality..


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Take a look at the Desert Reef and Tintlet websites (I could list scores of websites).



Yes, true - These two breeders are on the top of my list. I have a hard time seeing their dogs as not worthy and to standard. hwell: Very respectable breeders too! 

Love Tinlet and Desert Reef!!!


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Winnow said:


> You can that also in all FCI shows.
> 
> But you wont get a champion title just because he is the only one, he has to also be of a good quality..


As you wouldn't in AKC, CKC or UKC. The judge can withhold placement if the dog does not meet the standards.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_This is true in AKC. I know because when I showed Billy as a puppy, he was the only one in his class. Despite his hesitancy, being brand new to the ring, he was awarded a blue ribbon. I was surprised as I knew that the judge did not have to award any ribbon if she didn't think the dog was worthy of it. I talked with the judge after the show and she told me that she thought that Billy had the potential to go on to win a champion title and that was why she awarded him the blue ribbon. I was pleasantly surprised as I did not feel that he or I (it was my first time in a show ring also) performed well enough to be worthy of it. 
_


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> As you wouldn't in AKC, CKC or UKC. The judge can withhold placement if the dog does not meet the standards.


I have never actually seen a judge withhold placement no matter how poor the dog (thinking across breeds now). Have you?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I have never actually seen a judge withhold placement no matter how poor the dog (thinking across breeds now). Have you?


I have in many years seen a judge withhold placement and actually disqualify only two dogs, and only because the dogs tried to nail the judge during the exam.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

cbrand said:


> I have never actually seen a judge withhold placement no matter how poor the dog (thinking across breeds now). Have you?


I know an AKC judge who will withhold placement if it's the only dog in the ring and he feels the dog is not up to standard, however, even he admits that most judges don't do this, even if they should.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Vibrant said:


> Actually, a dog can get an AKC or CKC championship without competing against another poodle, by winning group placements, just the same as in UKC.
> Take a look at the Desert Reef and Tintlet websites (I could list scores of websites). They have lovely dogs, worthy of AKC Championships, but for whatever reason they choose not to show AKC. UKC may not have the big guns showing in it, but that doesn't make it useless. You are entitled to your opinion, but before you trash all UKC Ch poodles be sure you have educated yourself.
> There's politics in all dog shows. I can't figure out why a mini would be entered in a standard class....perhaps it had grown taller than 15", despite its parentage. I'd be interested in knowing the details, and had I been one of the standard poodle competitors and a mini really won a standard class, I'd have lodged a complaint.



Parti poodles do not count when I speak about UKC poodles ... I did not say all UKC dogs are poor quality either I just said you can tell the quality is different. Not all are bad quality but to get CH is a joke, Yes you can win group placements but you beat what 2 dogs in the group ???? so then your dogs a CH. 

I know its the same thing in AKC if no one shows up but really how many shows do standard poodles never show up  lol ? There are always poodles at AKC shows you have to beat some one ........

Yes this dog is a mini it was not a standard the UKC club that host the show let this breeder bring her "minis" in because she brings big money to the club so they allow here to win. So for you to say UKC is fine and dandy is not true. 

Enzo is a UKC CH but imo it does not mean $hit he beat what 2 dogs out whoa ...... and both where not a poodles:wacko:..... I think the UKC need to fix a few things with dogs like poodles. I think its also unfair how one breeder can enter 15 dogs...... and they get points that way to get CH GR status so they are winning against their won dogs IMO that is not something I would brag about...... 

If your poodle is GR status then I think that is better than to brag about a UKC CH title ( solid poodles only)



cbrand said:


> I have never actually seen a judge withhold placement no matter how poor the dog (thinking across breeds now). Have you?


I never seen an AKC withhold either ......... I seen some really crappy dogs get blue ribbon because it was the only dog there ......:doh:

IMO UKC is a registry I would go to if my breed or color was not excepted in AKC.

for example apbt's there is ALWAYS competition for this breed so when an apbt gets CH its a big deal. There are usually 10 plus dogs in the ring.

There are far more parti poodles showing than the solid poodles in most areas. In CA no poodles show up where I live and if they do the show is a rigged one due to how the club presidents and judges know the breeder. 

We started with UKC to practice and I think i will never go to another UKC show ever again....... The whole set up of it is flawed to me. I also do not appreciate viewing people breeding their dogs on the show site ... amongst other things I have witness at UKC shows.

Don't get me wrong AKC has their own set of problems I just get sick of people always saying UKC is so much better than AKC because their are no politics or the judges actually judge your dog LMAO psssh i wish judges are humans not robots.....


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

It makes sense to me Roxy.


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I have never actually seen a judge withhold placement no matter how poor the dog (thinking across breeds now). Have you?


I have 'heard' of one, and seen an obviously lame dog denied placement. Most certainly, a dog that is very poor quality won't be placed in the group when it comes up against competition.


----------



## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> I have 'heard' of one, and seen an obviously lame dog denied placement. Most certainly, a dog that is very poor quality won't be placed in the group when it comes up against competition.


Well thank god its not like that in the FCI

fist the dog gets a critique Excellent, Very Good, Good, sufficient and so on.

If the dogs gets Excellent then he can get Champion quality.

The judge places the dogs who get Champion quality and the dog that gets first place can get the Champion point if he is not already a Champion then the place after him can get it if he is good enough.

We also have international Champion points and sometimes the judge just gives you the regular one and says that the dog is not outstanding enough to get the IntCH point. 

I have shown dogs that are the only ones in there breed and they just get maybe Excellent or Very good and then they are done for the day...

So here being the only one of your breed is not always helping


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

( I did not say all UKC dogs are poor quality either I just said you can tell the quality is different. )

You allude to the fact.

(I know its the same thing in AKC if no one shows up but really how many shows do standard poodles never show up lol ?) 

I don't know...I'm Canadian. In Canada it depends on the area you are from whether there are a lot of poodles or not. Even in my area, which is a hotbed of breeders, there are times there are very few poodles in the ring.




(Enzo is a UKC CH but imo it does not mean $hit he beat what 2 dogs out whoa ...... and both where not a poodles)

Yes, I would have to agree with you in Enzo's case...the UKC CH is not worth anything. But, that does not mean every UKC show in North America is the same. The UKC show held in Toronto in November had 7 standard poodles competing...three of which were Canadian champions. The three wins with competition that my dog got most certainly means **** to me. 

I'm not speaking necessarily as a UKC advocate...I agree that it has its flaws. But to make blanket statements because you had a bad experience is unfair to all the other UKC exhibitors in North America.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> The UKC show held in Toronto in November had 7 standard poodles competing...three of which were Canadian champions. The three wins with competition that my dog got most certainly means **** to me.


So in total, how many Standard Poodles of the same gender did you beat to get your title?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am not getting involved in this one, but just wanted to say, Trillium and I went to the Owen Sound dog show last July, and in three days there was not one Standard entered in conformation and this was a CKC sanctioned show.


----------



## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

cbrand said:


> So in total, how many Standard Poodles of the same gender did you beat to get your title?


He hasn't gotten his UKC title yet. He still needs five points.
He won winners dog over two others each time (one of which was a CKC Champion). Went BOB once (against 3 Canadian champions), BW once and the other was just WD.
He has since finished his CKC title as a puppy, getting points against both Tango and Dawin dogs. And he's silver.
I know it's easier to finish a UKC Ch, but I still maintain that many UKC titles are well earned.


----------



## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

In UKC, same as AKC..I've seen a few as 1 entry..and as high as 57( at one show the female entry was equal to AKC 5 points). As in all shows, what you beat depends on what shows that day..PLUS the Judges opinion. 

I love showing UKC..no one there is making a living off showing dogs. 

Sometimes the competition is very strong, many times its not. More than once I've left the ring feeling like the best dog lost. Same as AKC  

that said, I also feel like you could Champion a 3 legged chicken....BUT the Grand CH you better have a nice 2 legged chicken <VBG>

and the only time I ever felt the sting of politics in UKC was from an AKC Judge. Won't ever show to her again in either venue ( in case anyone thinks it's sour grapes..I bred the dog that won, its just that she was not the best dog out there that day)

When I go to the shows, its for my own personal entertainment. I know the good and bad points on my dogs long before they are "Judged". It is nice to post wins on the website, and pin ribbons on the wall. Yet my most favorite ribbon is a 3rd place, won many years ago. and our favorite dog is a total misfit from an oops breeding. 

as far as UKC being flawed...the toughest problem is that when you become a Judge, then you are allowed to judge all breeds , except APBT, TFT, Am Esk, and the Belgian shepherds. 
The APBT, TFT, and AE require specail training because these were the core breeds that started the conformation shows. the Belgian breeds require that you have been a breeders, etc and they use a written critique. UKC was mainly a club for hunting dogs, and hunt trails, etc.

Many of the UKC judges are also AKC judges, or professional handlers. 

I guess I just enjoy going to the shows and having a good time..grooming my competitions dogs ( and then getting beat..lol) and enjoying the dogs. 

Here's my Levi, resting on the table waiting for weight pull to start


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Wish I can enlarge your photo  He looks very pretty. 

I wish partis get a right to go to AKC ring - I never understood how "original" variation of pigmentation got "out of standard " :rolffleyes:


----------



## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Wish I can enlarge your photo  He looks very pretty.
> 
> I wish partis get a right to go to AKC ring - I never understood how "original" variation of pigmentation got "out of standard " :rolffleyes:


there are many ideas on how the parti were eliminated. and at some point they may be let back in. First the overall quality needs to keep improving, plus getting them out in performance venues.
I have mixed feeling about them going to AKC Championship status...it would remove the stigma of letting solids and partis interbreed, but would also open the gate for extreme "looks". Plus.... how do you wig a parti!!! LOL!!!

WP..the photo of Levi was taken by another person with her cell phone..so can't enlarge it..bummer


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

tintlet said:


> Plus.... how do you wig a parti!!! LOL!!!


Hey... get in line. I can't wig my Brown either. Have to do it the old fashioned way and actually GROW the coat.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

LMAO - it would be funny if it was not actually a sad fact *sigh 

But hey -hey - a good business opportunity ; ) JK JK


----------



## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Hey... get in line. I can't wig my Brown either. Have to do it the old fashioned way and actually GROW the coat.


groannnnnnnn the more i read from you guys the more i realize i don't know squat. ok - sorry for getting off the track of the thread, but what is "wigging" ??????? and why can't you do it to partis or browns?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Some show people actually put small wigs within a show Poos head piece. This makes the head look taller and fuller. Some also use extensions in the head and ears for the same general reasons. This is cheating, but a lot do it anyway and it seems they rarely get caught or reprimanded for it.

It would be extremely difficult to match a wig up perfectly to a dog of colour.Imagine trying to find a wiggie with exactly the dame spots as some parti's heads? There is a lot of variance in colour in browns, reds, apricots and silvers, so it would be tough to match the tone perfectly.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Vibrant said:


> (
> 
> I'm not speaking necessarily as a UKC advocate...I agree that it has its flaws. But to make blanket statements because you had a bad experience is unfair to all the other UKC exhibitors in North America.


I did state that its not the case for all but we have some breeders bragging about UKC wins and when you look at the pics you can see they are showing 5 of their own dogs ...... 

I don't see the appeal in bragging if you did not beat out someone else's dog .... 

Then these people think they have breeding dogs because they won some UKC title. Where just going to have to agree to disagree. I just don't like UKC its unprofessional


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I did state that its not the case for all but we have some breeders bragging about UKC wins and when you look at the pics you can see they are showing 5 of their own dogs ......


To be fair, people build their own majors all the time in AKC. It even happens at the specials level where handlers are going for breed points so you have to go BOV over a certain number of dogs. I


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> To be fair, people build their own majors all the time in AKC. It even happens at the specials level where handlers are going for breed points so you have to go BOV over a certain number of dogs. I


Yes I do know that but who has time to pro groom 15 of their own dogs ? :doh: in UKC this happens at EVERY show in my area ,a breeder brings almost 20 of their own dogs and they have to scrabble and force everyone at the show to handle their dogs......... it delays things when this happen. I am not just speaking about poodle breeders either. there is a Welsh corgi breeder who brings in about 20 dogs . The judges know they are all of their dogs lol So its pointless.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yes I do know that but who has time to pro groom 15 of their own dogs ? :doh: in UKC this happens at EVERY show in my area ,a breeder brings almost 20 of their own dogs and they have to scrabble and force everyone at the show to handle their dogs......... it delays things when this happen. I am not just speaking about poodle breeders either. there is a Welsh corgi breeder who brings in about 20 dogs . The judges know they are all of their dogs lol So its pointless.


Right, I bet it happens in AKC more often with the non-coated breeds. 

However, I heard about this last year in regards to Minis and how handlers trying to get breed points would show up at remote shows with multiple dogs, many of whom had been hastily put into HCC simply to plump up the numbers.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I was thinking that too. Anyone can take 5 or 6 dogs to the groomer and have them put in pet clips for UKC. Maintaining and grooming enough dogs to get a major in AKC would be quite an accomplishment. I know in my area you have to beat 10 dogs or 14 bitches to get a 3 point major.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Right, I bet it happens in AKC more often with the non-coated breeds.
> 
> However, I heard about this last year in regards to Minis and how handlers trying to get breed points would show up at remote shows with multiple dogs, many of whom had been hastily put into HCC simply to plump up the numbers.



yes Im sure with the non coated breeds it does happen alot but we are talking about POODLES only lol

and yes I know the mini breeders do this also because mini #'s are not as strong as standard poodles in the shows. Mini's are also easier to groom than a standard.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Harley_chik said:


> I was thinking that too. Anyone can take 5 or 6 dogs to the groomer and have them put in pet clips for UKC. Maintaining and grooming enough dogs to get a major in AKC would be quite an accomplishment. I know in my area you have to beat 10 dogs or 14 bitches to get a 3 point major.


Yeah its like that in CA also. I forget the numbers but a lot of dogs have to show up. Its no easy street winning here in CA with AKC. For minis the number is super lower than standards Usually only 5 or less minis show up at local shows where I live.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Like I stated earlier Im not trying to bash UKC I love UKC for non -AKC breeds or colors. 

I just get mad when people try to say UKC is fairer or there is not politics within UKC " the judge, judges the dog more " type of comments. I seen judges in UKC pick people and not the dog as well also so lol ......hwell:


----------



## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Very true Roxy, I've seen the same. If they are a bit confused, they just look for a familiar face or shoes...lol


----------

