# Prong Collars



## lily cd re

I think you could search the forums and find the answers to all of those questions, but I will answer below since I do use pinch collars with all of my dogs.



snow0160 said:


> I have no experience with Prong collars. I was thinking about looking into one for pulling. I know sizing is crucial for a proper fitting.
> I have a few questions about prong collars:
> 1. I've seen people say it is gentle but it looks quite uncomfortable. Is it humane? My best suggestion is to put one on your own arm and apply a bit of pressure (not a big yank since you never do collar/leash jerks with pinch collars). I would describe the feeling as annoying, but definitely not painful.
> 2. What are the best uses for prong collars? What temperament dog deals best with prong collars? I use pinch collars for dealing with pulling on regular walks, but also use one all the time in Javelin's obedience work. Lily has also had one for her obedience work, but I don't use it too much anymore for her. I think any dog can wear a pinch collar as long as you use it correctly.
> 3. What caution should I exercise while using it? Just make sure you use it correctly. The whole concept is not to jerk the dog around, but to let the dog feel the correction and decide how much it is annoying them vs. how strongly they want to run after the cat. Additionally I never leave them on an unsupervised dog so that they can't get caught on anything (but then again I prefer not to leave any collar on an unsupervised dog).
> 4. How effective is it? Does it become a crutch? If introduced properly (I will describe below) it will not become a crutch and you will be able to fade its use if you choose to do so. None of my dogs has ever yelped or shown any sign of distress regarding a pinch collar. The boys like seeing theirs come out since they know it means they are going some where to do something interesting.
> 5. Is there anything else I should know about prong collars before buying one? If you decide to get one get a good one with extra links so it can be sized properly. I will put a link for the best one (IMO) to get below.


Here is how I have pet people who want to use a pinch collar introduce it (performance people already know what to do). Put the collar on the dog every day for two weeks and give a treat for accepting it nicely. It can take a bit of practice to learn how to put it on and take it off. Do not hook the leash to the new collar but go for a walk and let the dog think the collar doesn't do anything. At the same time you start doing that, get a new flat buckle nylon collar and place it in a ziplock bag with mink oil or fish oil and let it marinade there for two weeks. At the end of the two weeks put your smelly collar on and the pinch collar on and hook the leash to the pinch collar. The dog will think the smelly collar is giving the feel of the pinch collar. Keep using both collars and as the smell fades off the marinaded collar you will be able to fade the use of the pinch collar if you want to. I don't think it is necessary to stop using the pinch collar though and routinely alternate making the pinch collars live and not so that I can always let the dog retrain itself a bit if poor manners on leash return.

You want a well fitted pinch collar to fit closely to the neck right up behind the dog's ears. You should be able to put a couple of fingers underneath it but not have it sliding down the neck. You may have to part hair on a thick coated dog to get it on right.

I think the best pinch collars are these from Herm Sprenger. https://www.amazon.com/Imports-Herm...8-1&keywords=herm+sprenger+quick+release&th=1 The quick release makes them easier to put on and especially to take off. They come in different sizes but you fine tune the fit by adding or removing links as needed. Lily and Javelin both use pinch collars with small links (size small). Peeves is a medium link collar. For reference Peeves weighs about 100 pounds. I also recommend hooking your lesh to the pinch collar and to the flat collar until you are very comfortable that you are closing the pinch collar properly. If it isn't secure it can release easily then you have a loose dog.


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## Skylar

I've seen dogs in my competition training class wearing them, some people are using them to protect their dog's coat for conformation. 

*You never, ever pull on the dog's collar when they are wearing the prong collar *- it's only when the dog makes the choice to pull that the prongs correct. If you are doing something where you might pull on the dog's collar - for example when training a dog to come and you need to tug to get them going in your direction - then you would never use the prong collar. You also wouldn't use it to "pop" a sit if you're one of those people who pull up on the leash to get your dog to sit. And if you have been pulling on your dog's collar to redirect them when pulling - you have to consciously be certain that you don't fall into this pattern with the choke collar on.

You can test the prongs on your arm to see what it feels like - it doesn't hurt.


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## Countryboy

'Prong' collar is a bit of a misnomer. The 'prongs' are only there to 'pinch' soft parts of the skin of the neck... thus uncomfortable. So Pinch Collar is a proper name.

I have no problem with Pinch Collars when they're properly used. Which unfortunately is a small percentage of their use. By far, most people use them incorrectly.

But from observations I've developed a whole new theory on collars and pulling. Any collar, high on a dog's neck will stop pulling... slip collar, flat collar, or pinch collar. It's when the collar drifts down toward the dog's chest that they can really develop some traction without feeling it themselves. Dogs can pull with their chest forever... for miles. They can't and won't pull with their esophagus... they'll stop pulling.

That's my theory. But I'm wide open to suggestions on how you can keep that collar right under the dog's ears... high on the throat. 'Cos that's where my theory falls down.


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## rj16

Countryboy said:


> 'Prong' collar is a bit of a misnomer. The 'prongs' are only there to 'pinch' soft parts of the skin of the neck... thus uncomfortable. So Pinch Collar is a proper name.
> 
> I have no problem with Pinch Collars when they're properly used. Which unfortunately is a small percentage of their use. By far, most people use them incorrectly.
> 
> But from observations I've developed a whole new theory on collars and pulling. Any collar, high on a dog's neck will stop pulling... slip collar, flat collar, or pinch collar. It's when the collar drifts down toward the dog's chest that they can really develop some traction without feeling it themselves. Dogs can pull with their chest forever... for miles. They can't and won't pull with their esophagus... they'll stop pulling.
> 
> That's my theory. But I'm wide open to suggestions on how you can keep that collar right under the dog's ears... high on the throat. 'Cos that's where my theory falls down.


I was reading your post, nodding my head in agreement and excited to hear your solution. Thanks CB! :laugh2: 

I've toyed with the idea of trying a pinch collar on Monty, for the simple reason that I have found no way of teaching him to not pull his leash taught. On sidewalks and streets we are well on our way to a nice trot next to me. But in other settings, where I'd happily have him a bit ahead of me, a bit behind me, sniffing stuff within range, I haven't figured out how to teach him to just not pull.


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## Verve

Lily's answer was excellent; the Thanks button seems insufficient for the time and energy she saved me. 

I would just add that I prefer to use the very smallest links necessary and use the micro prong collars on my big, rambunctious boys with good results. 

I have RA and a sketchy back and mechanical devices of some sort have been an invaluable adjunct to training to protect my own body from injury. I have used prongs, head collars, and no-pull harnesses over the years with three different dogs (my girl has never needed anything more than a soft martingale). I can say with great confidence that of the three, my dogs MUCH prefer the prong.


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## lily cd re

Verve thanks for those nice words. My obedience trainer has poms so she uses the micro pinch collars, but I find the small okay for my spoos. Hardly anyone needs the large link collars. I once saw someone on the ferry with two boxers wearing large link collars. It was overkill and given the side berth they were getting from other passengers who did a lot of staring I would guess it made them look scary or dangerous to the people who didn't understand what pinch collars are about. I might have spoken tot hem about it but as I recall I had Lily, Peeves and a baby Javelin with me so approaching anyone else with dogs while managing mine was out of the question. I also have arthritis (osteo) and currently can't take any NSAIDs because of blood thinners, so my pain level is pretty high these days. Using a pinch collar is a life saver for me too. I also think that if using a pinch collar makes the difference between being able to do things with your dog or not that the balance of the value of the dog having a life outside of running around in the back yard says use the pinch collar.

Countryboy I agree with you that having any collar properly high up on the neck makes a huge difference in what happens. You are right though that most collars will slide down the dog's neck when there is no tension. The only one that won't if properly fitted is a pinch collar. The hardest part with pinch collars on poodles is when they have a lot of coat on. It is hard for the collar to do what it is supposed to if it gets hung up on neck hair.

BTW the only kind of collar I do not allow beginner and pet people use is a slip collar (choker) since most people are way to prone to yanking on them to get a response.


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## Poodlebeguiled

I do not believe in using positive punishment such as prong collars or any other thing that causes discomfort, pain or a lot of intimidation. It has the very real potential to create some undesirable fall-out. It is absolutely not needed to teach a dog not to pull, not with the proven scientific methods in use more and more in this day and age. There are some extraordinary circumstances where I might turn to the use of stronger punishment for training. (like snake avoidance training) But it should never be used unless all else has failed. And "all else" needs to have been applied _correctly_ and consistently before determining it's failure. That's where I see a lot of people, including trainers (or so called trainers) leap to using punishment. They think they've done everything and they haven't or they are lazy and want an easy, quick fix. Very common unfortunately.

I hope you'll read what the real experts think and be sure you've exhausted everything else before making your choice. 



> The Truth About Prong Collars ? BayWoof
> 
> ASK DR. DOG by: JEANNINE BERGER, D.V.M. on NOVEMBER 1, 2016
> The Truth About Prong Collars
> Some people say prong collars are not painful. I say that’s simply not true.
> My experience as a dog owner and trainer as well as my further education as a veterinary behavior specialist—meaning I have a background in medicine as well as behavior—have given me unique insight into both the psychological and medical problems caused by prong collars, and how the two can be related.
> 
> Despite what some trainers or pet store employees might promise, prong collars are neither safe nor humane. That’s why the San Francisco SPCA launched a new campaign to educate the community about the physical, emotional, and behavioral harm that prong collars cause.
> 
> Prongs are made out of metal spikes and are worn over the most sensitive part of a dog’s neck. The purpose of prong collars is to inflict pain, which is supposed to decrease a dog’s pulling on the leash. Those metal spikes can easily damage a dog’s delicate neck area. The protective layers of the skin on the under portion of a dog’s neck, where the prongs of the collar are designed to pinch, are three-times thinner than those of human skin. Prong collar injuries range from skin irritation or punctures to spinal cord problems and crushed tracheas. These injuries can occur even if a prong collar is “properly fitted.”
> 
> It’s not just the potential for pain; prong collars can also harm your relationship with your dog and lead to long-term behavioral problems, like fear and aggression. If pain is experienced during routine activities like walks and vet visits, dogs can begin to associate an owner’s presence, and other harmless events, with the emotional sensation of fear and discomfort.
> 
> While a dog might stop pulling on the leash when wearing the spiked collar, he’s doing so to avoid the pain, not because he’s learned the behavior that you’re trying to teach. As soon as the prong collar is removed, he’ll go back to his previous behaviors. How many dogs wearing prong collars do you see walking nicely next to their owner?
> 
> Training and teaching your dog using positive reinforcement methods will have much more wide-reaching and lost-lasting effects without having to resort to the use to pain or fear.
> 
> Unfortunately, we continue to regularly see prong collars on dogs throughout San Francisco. We know most dog owners want to do the right thing, and they may not even know they are hurting their pets.
> 
> There’s a huge need for education as well as a real opportunity to help pet guardians. In addition to providing information and education about alternatives to prong collars, both SF SPCA campuses will soon become prong-collar-free environments. Visitors whose dogs are wearing prong collars will be asked to remove them while they’re on the premises, and we will provide a humane alternative to wear during the visit.
> 
> Vet visits are already stressful for most dogs, even without the added pain of a prong collar. As a veterinarian, prong collars not only make me worry about the safety of my patient, but they also make me worry about my own safety and that of my staff. Prongs can make dogs more reactive and aggressive, which can be especially dangerous during medical procedures and can hurt the hands of staff when they restrain the animal.
> 
> The good news is that there are many safe, humane, and effective alternatives to aversive training techniques and equipment. At the SF SPCA, we support positive reinforcement training. Positive reinforcement uses treats, toys, affection, and attention to reward your dog for desired behaviors. Any behavior can be taught through positive reinforcement, and it works for dogs of all breeds and sizes.
> 
> To learn more about prong collars, humane alternatives, and positive reinforcement, visit SFSPCA.org/prong. Please consider signing our prong collar pledge and sharing it with your friends.
> 
> Dr. Jeannine Berger is director of behavior resources at the San Francisco SPCA and oversees all aspects of behavior within the society. She attained board certification with the American College for Veterinary Behaviorists from UC Davis in 2007, and she achieved board certification from the American College of Animal Welfare in 2014. She and her life partner, Jeff, live in Vacaville with their dogs, cats, horses, sheep, and chickens. Her hobbies include trail riding, hiking, skiing, and (red) wine tasting.





> Project Trade is the Pet Professional Guild's (PPG) international advocacy program that promotes the use of force-free pet equipment by asking pet guardians to swap choke, prong and shock collars (and any other devices that are designed to change behavior or care for pets through pain or fear). Because we want all pets and their guardians to experience the huge advantages and long-lasting effectiveness of force-free training and pet care, we will give you great discounts on our most popular, effective, fun and pain-free training and pet care services in exchange for your old gear.
> 
> Effective, humane animal training and pet care methods are the foundation of any animal’s healthy socialization and training and help prevent behavior problems. Since a wide variety of equipment and tools are commonly used when training pets, the pet-owning public needs to be aware of the potential problems and dangers some equipment may pose. Specifically, the use of collars and leads that are intended to apply constriction, pressure, pain or force around a dog’s neck (such as ‘choke chains’ and ‘prong collars’) should be avoided. Distinguished veterinarians and behaviorists worldwide are joining the discussion and calling for the elimination of such devices from the training efforts of both pet owners and professionals.
> 
> 
> *What Do the Experts Say?*
> 
> 
> *Respected veterinarian and thyroid expert,* *Dr. Jean Dodds*, recommends against choke or prong collars “as they can easily injure the delicate butterfly-shaped thyroid gland that sits just below the larynx and in front of the trachea. These collars can also injure the salivary glands and salivary lymph nodes on the side of the face underneath both ears.”
> 
> 
> Bestselling author and *canine behaviorist, Jean Donaldson, *says: "These devices (choke and prong collars), when they work, do so to the degree that they hurt. With the advent of modern methods and tools they are irrelevant.”
> 
> 
> According to *veterinarian and veterinary behaviorist Dr. Soraya V. Juarbe-Diaz: *"Using punishment to stop behaviors is not new. Notice I say ‘stop’ rather than ‘teach’ -- I can stop any behavior, but I am more interested in teaching my students, animal or human, to choose the behavior I want them to perform because they can trust me, because I do not hurt them and they are safe with me, and because the outcome is something they enjoy.”
> 
> 
> *PPG thus encourages all pet owners and pet professionals to embrace modern, scientifically based, training techniques and tools, especially the latest generation of no-pull harnesses which are free of the risks posed by traditional collars and offer far more benefits. So swap your gear and help create a kinder world for you and your pet!*




http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/vmth/...behavior_pdfs/AVSAB_Punishment_Statements.pdf


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## Verve

I would like to take issue with one key point in the above post:

"The protective layers of the skin on the under portion of a dog’s neck, where the prongs of the collar are designed to pinch, are three-times thinner than those of human skin. Prong collar injuries range from skin irritation or punctures to spinal cord problems and crushed tracheas. These injuries can occur even if a prong collar is “properly fitted.”"

If you've seen prong collars, you'll know that there is a substantial portion that is a limited-slip type chain without prongs. That portion is supposed to go on the underside of the neck, so that in fact, the trachea and underside of the throat are exposed to NEITHER prongs nor pressure. That, in my opinion, makes a prong collar far safer than a slip collar. As for spinal cord injury, I think that risk is far greater when a high-drive dog hits the end of the lead hard wearing a head collar, which intuitively is much more likely to cause whiplash-type insult to the cervical spine.


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## Poodlebeguiled

I don't like head halters either.

The collar causes pain. That's why it works. Simple as that. If it were neutral, behavior would remain static. Either you reward behavior you like or punish behavior you don't like. Snow, do you want to teach your dog the way it is described in those articles, using scientifically proven techniques that maintain a thoroughly trusting relationship with your dog or do you want to risk the many types of detrimental side effects of falling back on punishment based training? Cesar Milan has put dog training back decades and this type of forceful training is still being relentlessly latched onto by people. I've trained many dogs and their owners and have never had the need to use a prong or choke collar for teaching them to walk nicely on a leash. I tried one once for a very short time and it escalated the dog's dog reactivity/aggression. It can _cause_ it in fact. But in this case, the dog was already that way. 

Anyhow, the information is there. I'm not going to get in a big argument about it. That is my opinion. You have the opinions of others as well. And everyone can do what they want. I'm glad I learned about force free methods a long time ago because I've trained many dogs successfully without the use of a prong collar or other painful tools.


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## snow0160

I do want to mention that I've read a lot of articles about this but there really isn't a consensus due to user error, bad fittings, or high strung dogs. I would be afraid that I might make these mistakes by accident. I reflectively pull when the dog lunges. 

I am looking into this for Kit rather than Lucky. When Kit pulls, it feels like my arm is going to come off my socket and she has a lot more growing to do. The issue is she likes to jump and lunge when she sees people she likes. When she does this it is hard to control her. My husband has been the one walking her mainly because she is incredibly strong. She seems to do great in crowds but if it is empty and she sees a person she will pull with all her might to reach that person. I've tried focus training and she does great but she tends to be a lot more stubborn than Lucky when she sees something interesting and completely ignores you. This is common for LGDs whereas the poodles and the sporting group seems much quicker to respond. My other concern is she growls when she gets excited or playful and starts lunging. This behavior really freaks people out ...even really tall and wide guys. I just want to correct the lunging behavior, otherwise Kit is a great dog.


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## Poodlebeguiled

I'll tell you what I'd do if I were working with you professionally. I'd recommend you avoid these places where the triggers of her lunging behavior are so prevalent. I'd want to prevent any further practicing of this behavior. I'd recommend setting up specific situations at home (at first) with a milder form of the trigger. But first before that, I'd beef up the training of nice, loose leash walking in no distraction areas...then a little more distraction but not her full blown triggers...not now. 

Use some high value treats or whatever she loves best to reward even a couple of nice steps. Deliver the reinforcers frequently...every other step. Show her where to walk, how to turn with you, how to stop, sit, stand, walk, turn often, change speeds often, feed her treats as she's walking nicely. Practice short sessions several times a day. Then add a person...ask a neighbor or friend that is new to her or relatively new or exciting to help you. Start out standing right close to the person so she doesn't feel a need to lunge. The person is already there. Have the person stay put. Walk away a little bit. What do you think she'll do then? Will she want to go see the person again or will the person be old business? It is hard without being there in person. If she lunges to go back to see the person, that must not work for her. Walk away. Have your husband do this if you're not strong enough. This can not work for her anymore to get the reward of seeing the person because she's lunging. Walk away, then try again. Repeat until she walks nicely. Try not to put too much space between you and the helper. Try to show her that she WILL get to go see and visit BUT that pulling, lunging, acting crazy IS NOT WHAT MAKES IT HAPPEN. See...this is what she has learned...that she must do these things in order to get to go see the person. Your job is to show her that the desired behavior is what works. Break it down into teensy baby steps...make it super easy for her to succeed so she can learn. Increase the pressure of the trigger ever so gradually. Do not take her where she will fail. Not yet. It is important that she socializes. If you keep her at home all the time, that is no good. I understand that. So, when she must go out and visit some people, keep it in mind where the best place is...where can she visit without feeling a need to lurch and lunge? Does it work better if people are right close and not at such a distance? That moving target at a distance can be more enticing. What about fewer people at a time? A neighbor's yard? Someplace else? 

I know from your posts that you've done a lot in the way of socializing her. This growling...is this real growling from fear or anxiety? Or is it her way of talking? Or is it from excitement? Be careful how you interpret this. 

If this doesn't show you any changes in a couple weeks...3 weeks, get yourself a certified, applied behaviorist. They typically don't go for things like prong collars. See what ideas that person might have for you. One or two sessions may be all that you need to get some more ideas to practice. 

Consistency is absolutely key. If you let her act like this, even once and all the rest of the time you do things right, it will put this behavior on a variable reinforcement schedule, which will serve only to make the unwanted behavior even worse! And it will take her longer to reach that extinction burst where she'll give it all she's got, then stop trying to get her way by means of terrible behavior. 

So break things down into smaller increments, 

make triggers much more mild, 

increase reinforcement by quality and frequency. 

Practice short sessions often. 

Mix things up a little to keep her interest high while showing her what works. (ie: lots of random turns, change speeds, positions, sit/down/stand/ go, stop, go, stop. etc) Practice in the front yard, then the back, then a quiet park where no one is for instance. Use different reinforcers...a favorite toy, a super tasty treat...a different one each session. Save the best for the best examples. This sort of thing... 

In addition to all that, keep working on "look at that" training. Focus. (google it and watch the video again) Do it for a fun game in the house or out in the yard when she is ready...always, always start anything with low to no distractions. Get it good first before trying a small distraction...like dropping a toy, or a stick next you...just a little distraction before adding a human or any other high level distraction.

I think with a few weeks of hard work, she'll learn _what_ works. You won't merely be stopping a behavior via force. She'll get smarter and learn better in the future as well because she'll learn HOW to learn better. If you have trouble, again...find a reputable certified behaviorist.


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## lisasgirl

snow0160 said:


> I do want to mention that I've read a lot of articles about this but there really isn't a consensus due to user error, bad fittings, or high strung dogs. I would be afraid that I might make these mistakes by accident. I reflectively pull when the dog lunges.


This has always been my hesitation with prongs, too. I'd be way too afraid of accidentally tugging on the leash. I think with any training method or tool, you have to consider not just the dog, but the trainer. Do you think your husband could use the prong correctly?

I wouldn't recommend a head halter for lunging behavior because of whiplash concerns. And a front-clip or "no pull" harness really just gives you a little extra control - it helps, but they can still pull with it. So the prong/pinch might be your best option if you really can't control him when he pulls and you can't implement a more patient/slow method for whatever reason.


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## lily cd re

I figured you were asking with respect to Kit rather than Lucky. I would start with lots of under threshold attention training. You can't make progress with focused attention if she is already over the top trying to get to a person she is interested in. This may mean leaving her behind for some outings for a while. Don't set her up for situations where she will practice the behaviors you are trying to extinguish though. Allowing her to practice at bad behaviors makes them become well learned behaviors that become much harder to extinguish. 

In the meantime I think you could also consider a pinch collar for unavoidable settings where she is likely to get excited as a temporary tool to keep her reigned in. I would not use a head collar for her. If she gets crazy it doesn't help much. She could get a whiplash type neck injury and I think people who don't know what they are are more likely to be afraid since they seem to think head collars equate to muzzles equate to potentially dangerous dogs. I also have never had any good results with front clip/no jump harnesses and my understanding is that the types of these that are really restrictive of the dog's movements also have pain and injury concerns.

I will add that my original description of how to train a dog to properly use a pinch collar (using a decoy collar with strong scent on it) is almost verbatim from Ian Dunbar. Lily and I were at a workshop he gave a number of years ago and during the lunch break I had the chance to talk one on one with him about an issue I was having with her (don't remember what it was). He prefaced his remarks with saying that he would try non aversive methods first, but that if proper attempts fail then using a pinch collar as described can be very effective.


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## snow0160

Lisagirl's post sums up exactly how I feel. I like Ian Dunbar's scent method. I would have never thought of something like this. I'm going to give to give it a go. Thank you very much Catherine for sharing this. I feel very fortunate to get advice like this. 
I also wanted to add she doesn't lunge at everyone for some reason. She will lunge at my parents every time and she loves the 8 year old boy next door. The eight year old boy absolutely adores Lucky but is terrified of her. She really loves people big and small. I believe this happened because she got a lot more attention as a pup. I don't know what activates her lunging behavior. There seems to be no particular pattern. I think it is based on her mood. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## lisasgirl

These days Archie only pulls toward people when he's really wound up otherwise...OR if he sees ME say hi to someone, especially in an excited way. If I ignore people, then he usually will too. But if I wave and say hi then he thinks he should get to say hi next. So that might be a factor to consider.


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## Verve

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Either you reward behavior you like or punish behavior you don't like.


Or you can do both, with a mix that is hugely tilted towards rewards. And that pretty much describes the approach of everybody I know who uses a prong collar.


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## lily cd re

Verve said:


> Or you can do both, with a mix that is hugely tilted towards rewards. And that pretty much describes the approach of everybody I know who uses a prong collar.


Verve that sums up the approach of almost everyone I know in dog training, raising children and teaching human students. If I never ever say that anything was wrong and allow that event to occur over and over again until it is a fixed behavior then I will have to un-teach it which is much harder than helping the subject to do the right thing early on if their attempts are not correct. When I was teaching Lily to retrieve the dumbbell I had to work very hard to un-teach her understanding that the correct thing to do when she approached me was to drop whatever was in her mouth. She had been a very mouthy puppy and adolescent and had been very hard on my hands and clothes so I taught her to put things we were playing with down on the floor when she returned to me (won't do that again!). Also just these past couple of weeks I have been dealing with a student who keeps doing things incorrectly and doesn't seem to understand that the kinds of things she is doing in class will be entirely unacceptable in her aspired career as a nurse. She has variously been very late to class, has come without the required preparatory work or has come to lab dressed in shorts (it is microbiology and long pants or skirts along with lab coats are a safety requirement) and on Monday came late to class to then tell me she hadn't had time to print an assignment that was specifically due at the start of class and about which they had known of the deadline for four weeks. Clearly simply telling this student that she shouldn't be doing these things wasn't working since she kept doing them. On Monday I told her I would not accept the assignment at all since I found her excuse to be very weak. Maybe now with an aversive consequence of meaning she will amend her responsibilities towards her course work. My assistant instructor at my obedience club is a retired surgical nurse. I have talked to her about this student. Her response has been that being late, etc. as she continually has been would likely result in her losing her job. I hope I have helped her to see she needs to change for the better before such a situation arises later in her life.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't have an issue with using a prong collar if it's necessary for control. I think it's a good idea to really use the least aversive tool possible, though, and if you can control your dog without a prong, I would not use one. I also would avoid using one to teach a smart breed like a poodle obedience behaviors. It's really not necessary. Not for heeling, not for attention, etc. But by all means, if the choice is between your dog dragging you down or wearing a prong, put the prong on.


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## zooeysmom

I think some dogs (and children) just need a firmer hand than others. If I owned a giant breed and couldn't control it, I'd surely have it in a pinch collar. For smaller dogs, most likely not.


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## rj16

Just yesterday, not long after reading this thread, I saw a dog with a prong collar on. We drove past them on an unfortunate little bit of street that doesn't have a sidewalk. As we approached the owner tugged on the dog to bring it closer to the edge. I think it was probably just her reaction to seeing a car approaching but obviously it had a (probably unintended) consequence for the dog. 

My conclusion from witnessing this was that when you put a prong collar on a dog, you have to be *extremely* mindful of how you use the leash. That situation struck me as quite unfair to the dog who was walking ever so nicely next to her and it could have been entirely avoided had the owner been the one on the car side. But I can imagine that the owner wasn't even conscious of the tug she was giving.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Very good point and observation Rj. 

Another thing I want to mention in response to the comment about doing both reward and punishment...when and if a dog is trained using primarily PR methods, (ie: clicker training)...rewards etc, a phenomenon develops very strongly with these dogs. It's called a _seeking_ behavior...seeking to earn a reward. It comes from the instinct of survival...to seek a primary reinforcer...something needed to survive. 

Positive reinforcement increases a behavior. Punishment decreases a behavior. (the _hope_ is the unwanted one) When a dog has learned_* how *_to learn via this seeking behavior and he's controlling the consequence purposefully, can predict the outcome, knows he has control over the outcome, the outcome having become reinforcing. He throws new behaviors often, thus learns faster because the odds go up that he'll be reinforced. So he's in this kind of learning mode where he participates in controlling what happens. And then he experiences a punisher now and then. This is confusing to him. 

Now, sure enough, you can reverse this and say that he knows something he did caused a punisher. And so he can stop that behavior that lead to the pinch on his neck. But the problem is, studies show that this can lead to some complications...Learned helplessness is one of the down sides that can happen if punished a lot. Another thing is that association that can very often be made inadvertently with something else in the environment...not what the handler had in mind when the punisher was applied. Dogs are not always aware of their behavior so if punished, this can cause problems. If reinforced accidentally or for the wrong behavior, it is far less damaging. 

To take the example of the observation Rj made with the woman pulling back on her dog. That dog got punished in the presence of Rj's car. The dog may come to fear or be nervous about cars. It can happen. What if the dog gets pinched when another dog comes by or a small child? Dogs learn _so_ very strongly by association, that pairing of a punisher with something else in the environment is a well known phenomenon by behaviorists. The bad thing happens and something in the environment becomes the bad thing. 

With all the ways to train dogs using non-punishing methods, I'd certainly exhaust all that first before risking some unwanted side effects. Like I said, my Doberman became more dog reactive and aggressive than he was before after trying a prong collar on him for a week or two. No way ever again.

My dogs have all learned to walk nicely on a leash without using a punisher...even my Doberman when I took the time to practice correctly. lol. I stepped back, stopped walking him where he was likely to run into strong triggers. I practiced with more distance between the triggers and us. I beefed up his attentiveness toward me and what we were doing. That needs to be well in place too...that ability to attend to you over everything else. It has to be_ very_ rewarding for the dog to do so and then distractions are gradually added. I strongly believe it improves the relationship I have with my dogs. When they look at me, even in the face of some strong, distracting triggers, and they get strongly rewarded, it's a win win for us. They get more attention right back and we're so connected. It really doesn't take as long as it sounds...shouldn't. Most behavior can be modified in a matter of a couple weeks, at least to a significant improvement if done right. Get some help if you need it. It would be well worth it. I wish you luck.


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## SSCarr

*Pinch Collar Question*



snow0160 said:


> When Kit pulls, it feels like my arm is going to come off my socket and she has a lot more growing to do. The issue is she likes to jump and lunge when she sees people she likes. When she does this it is hard to control her.


I have been using a Sprenger pinch collar on my white Standard Poodle Gunnar for the same reasons as you, and he doesn't seem to mind it at all. Walking has become fun now, even if he sees a squirrel, his arch enemy! One problem, it leaves a dark stain on his white hair, a big ring around his upper neck. I think mine is made of chrome. Do you have the same problem? I'm totally open to buying something else if it would not give him "ring around the collar". Thanks!


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## Countryboy

In the olden days I'd NEVER bump a pinch collar thread! With all the threats and imprecations that came with them it was better to let them die a quiet death as they slid down into the dungeons of PF. Compared to them, this thread is like a Sunday School discussion. Well done PF'ers! 

And anyway, it's already bumped... 



snow0160 said:


> I do want to mention that I've read a lot of articles about this but there really isn't a consensus due to user error, bad fittings, or high strung dogs. I would be afraid that I might make these mistakes by accident. I reflectively pull when the dog lunges.


Too true... as much as you're training the dog, you're training yourself. The problem is that too many dog owners would wear shorts to a lab class... 'cos they just don't care.

ETA: A word on another issue of pulling. With some of us, a pulling dog can cause serious strain issues to owners. It's IMPERATIVE that the dog doesn't pull.


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## SSCarr

*Pinch Collar Question*

Not sure what bumped is... Hoping for an answer if anyone with a white poodle has ever had the same problem of the pinch collar leaving a stain around the neck. :afraid:


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## lily cd re

SSCarr said:


> Not sure what bumped is... Hoping for an answer if anyone with a white poodle has ever had the same problem of the pinch collar leaving a stain around the neck. :afraid:



Bumping adds a new post to bring the thread back to the top of the list of active discussions. 

I am really surprised that a Herm Sprenger pinch collar is leaving a stain on your dog. Mine are all from that manufacturer and although my poodles are black I can't imagine that their coats would show a ring where the collar sat. I have never noticed any discoloration or residue on their collars. Maybe one like this with plastic links would help your situation. https://www.chewy.com/perfect-dog-command-training-dog/dp/160684?utm_source=google-product&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=hg&utm_content=The%20Perfect%20Dog&utm_term=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIptfFuemE1wIVDKlpCh2PMgUOEAQYASABEgKyM_D_BwE

Countryboy you make a good point about the refrain from pulling not just being important for the dog, but also for the owner/handler. BF's previous GSD weighed 110 pounds. He used to lunge around very unpredictably when I walked him and my should still has problems over 10 years later if one of my current dogs pulls me by it. Funny you mention people wearing shorts to lab class. It is against our lab safety rules and I have sent students home because of their lack of proper attire. In all things the tool should be the proper one for the situation.


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## Verve

Countryboy said:


> Too true... as much as you're training the dog, you're training yourself. The problem is that too many dog owners would wear shorts to a lab class... 'cos they just don't care.


Hahaha! I can hear my dear departed biologist professor dad laughing at that one.


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## SSCarr

lily cd re said:


> I am really surprised that a Herm Sprenger pinch collar is leaving a stain on your dog.


 Believe it. And thank you for the suggestion. I actually have the collar with the plastic links; it came with an off-leash training system I bought from The Sullivan Method. But it simply doesn't work for pulling like a pinch collar. You're right, the plastic does not leave a ring on his neck. I am really interested in hearing from people with white poodles to see if they are experiencing the same problem. It doesn't look too bad in this picture but it's the only example I have. Since taking this picture, I learned I was using the collar incorrectly. I now place it much higher on his neck closer to his ears.


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## Countryboy

SSCarr said:


> I am really interested in hearing from people with white poodles to see if they are experiencing the same problem.


I talked to likjaker about this for her Sunny... a few years ago. I don't know that she ever found anything for tightening a Martingale that left Sunny's fur clean. I'm thinking that the chain part would be stainless steel but I don't really know. They do make a Martingale with cloth substituted for the bit of chain that pulls the collar together. But somewhere they've got to put a metal ring... somewhere. Will that ring scuff off on white fur????


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## SSCarr

I've checked on Amazon and it seems it is the chrome plated Sprenger pinch collars that stain white-haired dogs. Sprenger does offer a Stainless Steel version for quite a bit more money that apparently does not stain the hair. To save myself a lot of future trouble and shampoo I will order one. Problem solved, I hope.


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