# Moyen Poodles



## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

I believe they are between a mini and a standard in size. There is someone else here looking-I'm new so I can't remember who-too many new names. I believe they are looking to import cause they can't find a suitable breeder in the states


----------



## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

Check the poodle breeding sub-forum-I think they have talked about it there


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

You can google klein or moyen poodles to find out more about them. I think there is a good breeder in Nevada but that we far away from you. Caralot Poodles in southern Indiana has klein which are usually around 25 lbs. They test their parents and welcome visits to their home to meet the dogs.


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Karbit poodles in Reno, Nevada seems to have a good reputation. Website is karbitpoodles.com. When I go looking for a klein next year, I am going to be most concerned that genetic testing is done on the parent dogs and that the litter is raised in a home environment. I personally won't care if the pedigree goes back to a recent European line. If the parents look good and are healthy and breeder cares about their dogs, that will be best recommendation to me. Karbit, though, seems to be very good.


----------



## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

Since moyen aren't recognized in the states, some people will cross standards with mini to get this size. That can result in disproportionate dogs, so watch for that. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## SusanLamb (Jan 14, 2015)

*Interested in a oversized mini, small spoo, or true klein*


Hello everybody, I have a precious twelve year old toy poodle, who is my absolute lovie. I am interested in getting a new love that is a little bit bigger. I'm a retired nurse in central to west Texas. I have heard about Karabit klein poodles. I want a healthy poodle whose dam and sire have had health tests, from a responsible breeder. I don't want a possibly genetic mess from a "back yard breeder." I recently talked to a woman who advertises her dogs are registered with CKC. I called and talked a bit, and was incredulous when I asked about the Canadian Kennel Club. She stated it was the Companion Kennel 
Club. I suppressed a snort and was polite and quickly hung up. 
Is there something inbetween the $1800 to $3000 puppies health tested etc, not show quality,,,, and the BYBreeder with fake registries and $650 puppies? 
Thanks for anybody's 2 cents!!!?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SusanLamb you can probably get a mini and have a dog in the size range you want since your previous dog was a toy poodle. As to price, it depends on where you are located and other factors, but I think you should expect the bottom end of the range for a good companion poodle to start at somewhere in the 1300 to 1500 range and then up from there. Good luck finding a nice new friend.


----------



## Zialady62 (Dec 22, 2016)

I actually have a small standard poodle (she's 20 or 21 inches tall). We were at a festival last summer and a lady stopped my daughter to pet our Lilly. She asked my daughter where we got such a large mini poodle. My daughter said that she wasn't a mini, she was a small standard and then the woman haughtily stated, "Oh, she's a Moyen!" and my daughter just smiled and said, "Nooo, she is a standard poodle, just on the smaller end of the allowable height." Woman said, "Oh then she's a Moyen!"

My daughter walked away......


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Next time get haughty and explain no she is a small standard she is not from imported Moyen/Klein bloodlines.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Moyen/Klein has become a word used by far too many folks as a hook to lure in unsuspecting buyers. True Moyen/Klein come from imported bloodlines and have been bred to be between 16 to 18 inches tall. There are a few breeders in the US who have them and are doing their best to protect those lines. 

Some less scruples breeders are crossing Mini to Standards and selling those as Moyen/Klein. They are not. 

Some breeders are doing Mini x Standards crosses for diversity or other well thought out reasons. They are open and honest about the background of their dogs. They normally will refer to these as intervariety crosses NOT Moyen/Klein even though the size can be about the same. However don't think that an intervariety will always be a small dog. I have a friend with one who is 24 inches tall at the shoulder. 

The thing about an intervariety cross is the pups will only be as nice conformation wise as the parents and many who are doing them to sale as Moyen/Klein are using poor examples of both mini and standards for the parents so you see all kinds of oddly built and poorly built puppies being sold by them. 

There are some good groups on Facebook for folks truly interested in and working on the Moyen/Klein. And at least one dedicated to small standards.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My girl Lily is petite to look at even though she is 22 3/4" at the withers and a 24" jumper in agility. I have had many people insist she was a moyen and I always try to explain that no she is a perfectly normal sized standard.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

SusanLamb said:


> Hello everybody, I have a precious twelve year old toy poodle, who is my absolute lovie. I am interested in getting a new love that is a little bit bigger. I'm a retired nurse in central to west Texas. I have heard about Karabit klein poodles. I want a healthy poodle whose dam and sire have had health tests, from a responsible breeder. I don't want a possibly genetic mess from a "back yard breeder." I recently talked to a woman who advertises her dogs are registered with CKC. I called and talked a bit, and was incredulous when I asked about the Canadian Kennel Club. She stated it was the Companion Kennel
> Club. I suppressed a snort and was polite and quickly hung up.
> Is there something inbetween the $1800 to $3000 puppies health tested etc, not show quality,,,, and the BYBreeder with fake registries and $650 puppies?
> Thanks for anybody's 2 cents!!!?


I have an oversized mini - I got her when she was almost a year old. She was a puppy held back for conformation, when they realized that she was probably going to go over the limit, she was sold to me as a pet. I had wanted a standard, but got a minipoo because the size suits me and my lifestyle better. If you don't mind getting an older puppy, you might want to call breeders and ask if they know of anyone with an oversized conformation puppy they need to rehome.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Two of my four qualify as small standards one is 21 1/2 the other is probably going to be slightly smaller but may squeak up to the 22 inch mark. The funny thing is I got told my Jazz (21 1/2 inches) had to be a doodle because she is too big for a poodle. FYI her brother is a 70 pound 26 inch tall poodle...


----------



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I got my previous standard, Iris, from Ann Rairigh of Litilann's poodles in Louisville Ky. Iris was 21" and 37 lbs her whole life and was a very nice portable size. When she left me last May at age 14 size was an important consideration to me, in addition to finding a breeder that I could trust.

3 days after I lost Iris a fellow forum member called to say her breeder had a puppy. I got Poppy from Betty Brown of Donnchada poodles in Plantersville TX. Betty is a well respected breeder/handler and she told me Poppy would be between 40-45 lbs when full grown. She is 42 lbs and a very manageable size. I often have people approach me asking what size she is because she is petite compared to other standards.

WestU's Lola is from Betty and is right around 40 lbs.

Betty was lovely to work with and she raises all three sizes of poodles. She has been breeding since the early 1970's and has wonderful dogs. They are, of course, health tested. Her prices are very reasonable as well. Poppy was $1500. Maybe she will have an oversized mini or a small Standard for you. You really could not go wrong with her dogs.

Poppy is show quality, but I never had any intention of showing her, in spite of a few who encouraged me to do so.

Feel free to PM me with questions.

Good luck on your quest!

Cathy & Poppy


----------



## helxi70 (Aug 9, 2017)

Anyone heard of ramzees poodles in FL?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I had not heard of them, but just looked at their website. there are some things that look great (involvement in showing and good genetic diversity test records shown) but I also really don't particularly like the labels of "Medium/Moyen/Klein/Small Standard" for some of the dogs. They are standards if they are out of standards, not moyens or kleins. It seems gimmicky to market with those terms. As pointed out elsewhere here the only way to get true moyens here in the US is from imported moyen parents or lines derived from such. It also seems to play to the idea that a standard that isn't over 24" or approaching 70 pounds isn't really a standard. Spoos are not supposed to be giant dogs. I consider both of my spoos to be perfectly "normal" in size, but neither is a giant and Lily, although dainty and fine boned, is not a moyen.


----------



## FranCarol (Oct 10, 2017)

I too was curious about the Moyen poodles. Where was the breeder you spoke with? I?m in PA and am getting dizzy trying to find the right pup for us.


----------



## MagentaBayPoodles (Nov 11, 2017)

Hi guys - I think it's true that you need to be careful when minis are bred to standards as sometimes those proportions really do get a bit messed up depending on the dogs involved. My girl comes from a whole line of dogs just about her size - that is, about 21 1/2" and 27 lbs. While not a true moyen in the imported sense, I use the word "moyen" to describe her because it's what people understand - it's just a descriptor of the size. But yes, she is a really small standard, as her pups will be. She was bred to a dog nearly exactly the same size as her, also with those same sizes behind him (and yes, truly imported moyens behind him) so should produce pups in the 22-30 pound size range. 
You definitely can find well-put-together, well-bred, well-proportioned "moyens" - I know this for sure because I have one.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

There is no difference at all between Mini and Moyen/Klein 'cept one is a French or German word used in Europe and one is English and used on the North American continent. Like me saying that I don't have a Poodle, I have a Caniche... or Tonka is not a 'dog'... he's a 'chien'... or not a 'Standard', but a 'Royale'.


----------



## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

MagentaBayPoodles said:


> Hi guys - I think it's true that you need to be careful when minis are bred to standards as sometimes those proportions really do get a bit messed up depending on the dogs involved. My girl comes from a whole line of dogs just about her size - that is, about 21 1/2" and 27 lbs. While not a true moyen in the imported sense, I use the word "moyen" to describe her because it's what people understand - it's just a descriptor of the size. But yes, she is a really small standard, as her pups will be. She was bred to a dog nearly exactly the same size as her, also with those same sizes behind him (and yes, truly imported moyens behind him) so should produce pups in the 22-30 pound size range.
> You definitely can find well-put-together, well-bred, well-proportioned "moyens" - I know this for sure because I have one.



Why use the word moyen to describe a small standard though? In Europe a true moyen is between approx 14 in to 18 in (rounded up when converting from cm). At 21.5 inches she is larger than a moyen. Small standard seems like a more genuine description to use. Just adding I am definitely not an expert like some here (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but I've done a considerable amount of research on poodles in the 17"-20" range.


----------



## Meekospeeps (Nov 12, 2017)

Moyens are usually gotten by mixing Minis with Standards, and average around 25-35 pounds. There's a breeder in Wellington CO called Powder Valley Poodles.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Rocpoodle said:


> Why use the word moyen to describe a small standard though? In Europe a true moyen is between approx 14 in to 18 in (rounded up when converting from cm). At 21.5 inches she is larger than a moyen. Small standard seems like a more genuine description to use. Just adding I am definitely not an expert like some here (so someone please correct me if I'm wrong), but I've done a considerable amount of research on poodles in the 17"-20" range.



Rocpoodle, you are spot on about this. Since moyen is not a recognized size in the US (and probably never will be) then the dog you describe at around 18-20" and in the upper 20s to low 30s in weight is a small standard and I think should be described as such. Sadly the terms such as teacup (for any toy breed), moyen for a small standard or royal for a very large standard are used by many breeders (of perhaps less than stellar motives, not suggesting that with recent posters here) as marketing gimmicks. When I got Lily I spent most of her first year trying to convince people she wasn't a portie and after that I had people who insisted she was a moyen poodle. Some of them never got it and insisted I didn't know what kind of dog I had. She is 22 3/4" tall and weighs around 37 pounds but has a fine boned build. In my book there is nothing to call her other than a standard.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> royal for a very large standard are used by many breeders (of perhaps less than stellar motives, not suggesting that with recent posters here)


Haha, C! 

Tho I do love camping thru Quebec, on a walk thru the campsite, when the little kids run up shouting "Voici! Voici! Un Caniche Royale!" 

But ya... for the rest of y'all... I changed Tonka's 'Poodle Type' a year or so ago during a similar thread as a joke... my mild protest of importing a foreign name for a common dog, and marketing it as some kind of new breed.

It's harmless enuf I guess, but causes confusion...


----------



## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

From the little research I've done, I have not been impressed with many of AKC's rules, regulations and practical tendencies. Treating poodles between 15-20 inches like they're damaged goods undeserving of winning significant titles, is one of those tendencies that, to me, are rooted in politics and not in the welfare of the animals. 

As far as I know (and for those much more knowledgeable than me, please do correct me if I'm wrong), Poodles between 15-20 inches pretty much cannot win any significant prizes in the AKC show ring. The AKC will never come right out and admit this, but basically, while these Poodles are allowed to compete as Standard Poodles, the judges will simply look the other way and find some other reason to prefer a bigger dog.

And, when AKC as the gatekeepers is willing to arbitrarily dismiss a category of dogs like this, it incentivizes breeders to come up with gimmicky marketing tricks to get people to want to buy dogs that size - hence the whole Moyen/Klein language thing to describe small Standards; make anything sound "European", and you've created a market for yourself in America. 

It's the logic of "if I can't be rewarded by playing fair because the rules are stacked against me, I'm going to invent new rules." 

Kevin


----------

