# Genetics of Color - what the experts said



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

This is a fresh update from the thread, _Advanced Question on Genetics of Color_, which I started last week in my quest to get the best available information from the DNA canine science community and labs. I have began this thread b/c the other one is old and I'm not sure anyone who has seen it will return to it. This is what the experts said:



Vita said:


> Hi everyone! I sent a letter to canine geneticist at a university asking about this. It turns out that she's been heavily involved in research color testing and DNA in poodles for decades. To protect her privacy, she said,
> 
> _"Born blue is caused by dd (not fading) but the gene for progressive greying has not yet been discovered, so there is not a DNA test for this. Therefore the breeders who say they can't test for progressive greying are correct. It is thought to be dominant allele, and therefore your pup has a 50% chance of having inherited it IF only one parent carried it. The Progressive Graying allele was named G by C.C. Little. I have never heard of V."_
> 
> ...


*So here's what the DNA labs said:*

*Lab #1:* The gene causing greying has not yet been located. Here is a page on greying from a great color genetics site: Dog Coat Colour Genetics

The Full Color Panel you have ordered will give you a wealth of information on what colors your puppy carries.

We do not compile the data for the different coat color genotypes that we test for each breed. We are not a research laboratory and do not gather this type of statistical data. 

We do know from published information about coat color and from speaking to breeders, that the “greying gene” is more common in Poodles than the D locus-dilute gene. The greying gene is where the dog is born a darker color and fades or greys over time. However, there is not a DNA test for the greying gene at this time.

The D locus-dilute gene dilutes the dogs main color. When a dog has 2 copies of the dilute gene, it will be born the diluted color like grey or silver. Although the D locus has been detected in Poodles (and many other breeds), the greying gene is more commonly found in Poodles.

Because this lab has a confidentiality disclaimer at the end of their email, I probably should not reveal the name of it. 

*Lab #2 was answered by customer service rep, and she only said:*

To date there still has been no discovery of the d gene in the Poodle. Therefore there is no testing and no data at this lab.

This was contrary to pages on their website! I see now why the DNA canine scientist said _not all color testing labs are equally reliable_. It made me wonder why the D locus test in their expensive full color coat panel. Further examination of their site and business history left me unimpressed with their operation, and I can also see why there is so much confusion about the DD and dd alleles.

*Lab #3 - Paw Print Genetics* 

They were really impressive, not just the wealth of information on their site, but the fact that a doctor _called_ me. This summarizes what he said, and I hope I got it right:

Standard Poodles generally do not have the dd genes. This is sometimes found in miniature and toy poodles. Blues always the dd alleles. 

He also said that my pup who is still black at 4 months of age (even when I shave her muzzle it's velvety black) may well remain black (unless and until greying genes take effect). She has a red father, and her mother was born black but changed to some odd color that might be blue (or could be faded or gray... heck, I don't know, I have to see her again). 

So IF her mother is blue with the dd alleles, and the father is DD, she won't have two dd dilute genes for her to change to blue. She might be a Dd. If so, knowing this will guide me if/when I breed her in the future. I'll find out what her color genes reveal when I send in the kit after the holidays. 

Paw Prints, by the way, currently has a half price sale thru 12/26 for their lab tests for genetic diseases and coat color when you order three or more, and they generally run this sale twice a year. 
https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/breeds/18/

And speaking of getting it right, it's more important to me to have accurate information. This is why I began researching for what the specialists said, rather than depend on laymen knowledge or older theories that are still sometimes viewed as facts.

*Here are the most accurate sites for genetic colors in poodles and dogs that I have found to date, and they are based on DNA science.*

*This site, Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs, is by Dr. Sheila Schmutz.* 
homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

If you click on the menu, Dilution: Silver, Blue and Cream, on that page under _Other Dilution Genes_ she explains: 

"Some poodle fanciers are concerned that the black in their breed is not as black as in breeds like the Labrador Retriever. I believe that may simply a side effect of the hair type that is characteristic of Poodles. *However Poodles do have both the alleles for dilution and progressive graying and therefore many Poodles who might be black are blue or silver instead."*

*Another good site is by Jess Chapell*, who is very heavy on evidence based science research with lots of references. Chapell's site was also recommended by Lab #1 that emailed me about the greying gene and color dilution gene and I think one of the PF members also recommended the site in general. The dog art illustrations, btw, are fantastic.

*Dog Coat Color Genetics* link

*Some PF members thought the dd alleles cause alopecia. Here's the scoop, see Chapelle's section on Dilution and Health*

_It's often claimed that dilute dogs are less healthy than those with normal pigment. This misconception has most likely come from the prevalence in some breeds of a condition known as Colour Dilution Alopecia (CDA). Colour Dilution Alopecia is in fact the result of a *faulty version of the d allele*, known as dl. Not all breeds carry this faulty allele, and the majority of blues and isabellas are completely healthy._ Dog Coat Colour Genetics

And lastly, I'll throw in the link to this site which has photos of all the colors of poodles with an explanation of the diferences, but they do not go into the specific allelles or genes that cause the color. It's a good start for at least recognizing the different colors. Poodle Colors | Explanations and Photos.

So, I hope this information helps at least some of you who are curious about the genetics of color and are interested in scientific references. PF has given so much to me in help with my new puppy that this was a way I could contribute something meaningful. Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays and New Year! - Vita & Bella


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thank you! This should be a sticky.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

thanks for sharing all this information! 
it’s nice to see things compiled and easily accessible 

i did want to make one comment though, regarding Bella’s mother’s color (and therefore the possibility of Bella being Dd



Vita said:


> her mother was born black but changed to some odd color that might be blue
> [...]
> IF her mother is blue with the dd alleles.


if Bella’s mother was born black, she is not a dd blue. 
dd blues are born lighter grey, they don’t fade with time.
the change in color you’re describing is caused by progressive greying, not dd blue.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> thanks for sharing all this information!
> it’s nice to see things compiled and easily accessible
> 
> i did want to make one comment though, regarding Bella’s mother’s color (and therefore the possibility of Bella being Dd
> ...


Right. This.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Color Breeding in Poodles*

I should have mentioned the site run by Keisha of Arpeggio Poodles. She says she no longer breeds poodles, but she sounds very knowledgeable and there's a wealth of information there about a lot of poodle things including breeding and colors. It would be interesting if other breeders here shared their expected or unexpected experiences with color combinations in their litters.

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES


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