# Non-Fading Red Standard Poodles? fact or fiction?



## *heather*

:laugh: I know I know... this is a overdone topic... I just have one question; *Does anyone out there own a Standard Red that is over 3 years old and has not faded? * 
There is so much talk about bad blacks and non-fading browns that it just got me thinking...... I've seen some really nice older blacks lately that are still a deep, dark, inky black, and a few deep browns that are still a rich chocolate brown even at 5 and 6 years old... but really, I don't think I've ever seen a red at that age that has not faded to an apricot shade of some sort. I would love to see if there are any "good REDS" out there! 
As most of you know, I have a wonderful 5month old red pup that I love with all my heart. I am fully aware that he will most likely fade to a nice apricot color and I'm ok with that. 
I just want to see if any of those claims about non-fading REDS actually exist.


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## roxy25

*heather* said:


> :laugh: I know I know... this is a overdone topic... I just have one question; *Does anyone out there own a Standard Red that is over 3 years old and has not faded? *
> There is so much talk about bad blacks and non-fading browns that it just got me thinking...... I've seen some really nice older blacks lately that are still a deep, dark, inky black, and a few deep browns that are still a rich chocolate brown even at 5 and 6 years old... but really, I don't think I've ever seen a red at that age that has not faded to an apricot shade of some sort. I would love to see if there are any "good REDS" out there!
> As most of you know, I have a wonderful 5month old red pup that I love with all my heart. I am fully aware that he will most likely fade to a nice apricot color and I'm ok with that.
> I just want to see if any of those claims about non-fading REDS actually exist.


Its fact , A pal on flicker posted a red poodle who was 9 years old and it was still a nice red. Let me find it and I will post the picture for you.


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## roxy25

ok here is is his name is Jake 9 years Wesley is 2 years I believe 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/angelfromhk/3867958413/in/set-72157611459419104/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/angelfromhk/3670459500/in/set-72157611459419104/

I know a breeder with a red female that stayed red till she was 13 Maybe I can get pictures of her and post.


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## *heather*

he's a great colour for 9 years old!! Awesome! Wonder what his pedigree looks like....

what are your thoughts on Enzo? is he going to stay dark? or do you think he'll lighten up too?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

You will find breeders who claim their dogs will not fade. I don't think it is true. While some of us will get lucky enough to get a deep, deep red that holds its colour, most of the pups, even pups from the same litters as those deep ones will fade. I contacted DDC labs and asked about non dilute genes and graying genes, and they informed me that a dog can test out showing it has the non dilute gene and still carry the graying gene, for which there is no test. They don't see a test for graying available in the near future either. So it appears if it doesn't have one thing it has the other. In a litter of ten last year, I had three born a good red that have darkened over time to the deepest mahogany I have seen. I don't feel they will fade as they started lighter and darkened until now, age 15 months. I had three medium reds who are a fair bit darker than they were at birth, three golden reds who are the fiery red we most associate with red Poodles, and one who I sold as apricot who has shocked us all and is a deeper, rich fiery red, darker than the golden reds were. I believe all but fouur of the pups will fade out, not to apricot, because apricot leans more towards yellow tones, but to a faded rust. BUT, we did not see the extent of the darkening until they were over a year old. So how can I possibly tell people the pups will not fade when I surely didn't know how much some of them would darken. I would presume the best way to breed reds in hope of non fading puppies would be two breed two dogs together who have a history of darkening puppies, and I believe that is what we were lucky enough to have happen with Holly and Dugan. But even the deepest red dog bred to a deep red dog can produce fading pups because of the graying gene. If you look around the different sites and even this forum, there are not many reds over a year old that are the deeper tones, but rather are the orange tones which tells me they will likely fade. Just my opinion and my personal experiences. One day we will all get it figured out, and hopefully produce entire litters of mahogany pups that hold that colour until they are old and...never mind. We don't want gray!!


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## roxy25

*heather* said:


> he's a great colour for 9 years old!! Awesome! Wonder what his pedigree looks like....
> 
> what are your thoughts on Enzo? is he going to stay dark? or do you think he'll lighten up too?


As for Enzo we do not know He is still dark and is 1 year of age. I had other breeders and handlers tell us he looks like he will hold his color so we will just have to wait to find out lol 

Arreau I think you are right ! thanks for the additional INFO I did not know about the graying gene. I have asked several breeders about their reds and apricots and they all said the same thing you just mentioned. It really is a guessing game. I do not know how some of these other red breeders claim their dogs will not fade because they where colored tested ? Vetgen is not aware of any fading gene Cbrand pointed that out to me and she was right ! 

I hope you and others do figure it out


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

The first two photos are Betty-Jo who has continually darkened. The second set of three are Jackson, who I thought would end up apricot who deepened, but not to the extent of Betty-Jo. Betty is mahogany and Jackson is the fiery red we associate with red Poos. (sorry- Will post younger photos of Betty-Jo on a different post)


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## *heather*

I guess I'm just skeptical because I see so many 1-2 year olds who are this color, but then they change after 2 - 3 years of age.... how old is Jackson?


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## plumcrazy

Yeah but what if Lucy turns GREEEEEEN???!!!??? JK! I'd still love her to pieces! Katy's brown poodle is just a year (DOB 9/23/08) and is already liberally sprinkled with white hairs amidst the brown... although no one claimed the person who bred her was a good breeder (or even a decent breeder, or a responsible human being... :rolffleyes In spite of her changing colors we love her more than ever!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am so sorry, my last post is very confusing. It did not turn out the way I wanted. The baby pictue of Betty-Jo apparently was too large a file, and the photo that is three pictures attached together is from the welcome page on my web site. Jackson is the fellow in the picture on the right of those. He is also the little light boy in the last post sitting by himself. I will post some photos of Betty as a youngster so you can see how much she has darkened over time.


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## Fluffyspoos

When I was hired at my current job, we're trained on the importance of good dog food, and they show before and after pictures of dogs that have been on a high quality diet, their colors are darker and deeper and their coats are glossier.

If a poodles color is looking a little bland, do you think a higher grade food could help? I'm fully aware of how much they fade from puppy to adulthood, lots of dogs change colors, but what if there's no fading gene?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jackson is Betty-Jo and Jenny's brother so he is fifteeen months old. Lucy won't be green (well maybe with envy over what some OTHER Princess has) and I believe she is going to darken a lot!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If there is no fading gene then there is likely going to be a graying gene. There always seems to be something, and the only thing that is going to help is very selective breeding. I don't think a dark red to a dark red is necessarily going to produce non fading dark red offspring. I think breeding red to red with each of them having a history of producing pups that darken is going to help. Food may help somewhat. I notice if Holly is given lots of raw carrots (which she prefers to any meat) her colour looks better.


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## *heather*

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If there is no fading gene then there is likely going to be a graying gene. There always seems to be something, and the only thing that is going to help is very selective breeding. I don't think a dark red to a dark red is necessarily going to produce non fading dark red offspring. I think breeding red to red with each of them having a history of producing pups that darken is going to help. Food may help somewhat. I notice if Holly is given lots of raw carrots (which she prefers to any meat) her colour looks better.


I was totally thinking that food might help! That's a big reason I started feeding Rogan Orijen, and he also gets lots of raw baby carrots almost every day, just cause he loves them (and they fall on the floor alot from all the kids snacks!) and I figured, hey, all that carotene might actually be good for his coat!! :laugh: never thought it would actually work! 
For Rogan, I would be shocked if he _didn't _lighten, I am fully expecting him to look like Dugan by the time he's 2... and that's just fine with me, I knew that from the beginning, and it didn't come as a shock to me... Like Plum said, green, blue, apricot,... I will love him no matter what colour he ends up being. 

My beef is with breeders who talk about deep red puppies all the time, but never show pictures of their adults (over 2 years of age). And consumers buy into this hype, thinking their dog is going to stay that colour for the long term. Bottom line is , I just haven't seen many mature Reds that are still dark red and wanted to know if there were any out there that have held their colour. So far, the one Roxy showed me is the oldest I've ever seen with great colour.


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## Trillium

I couldn't resist posting some baby pics of Betty Jo. The first 2 are just a couple days after we got her. The next 2 are a few weeks later. The last 2 are 2 months later. The ones of Betty Jo and Jenny (Betty Jo has the blue collar) Arreau posted were taken about 4 months after that and the one of Betty Jo on the chair was taken a few days ago. You can really notice a change in the colour over time


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## *heather*

Wow, you're right, her colour is phenomenol!! Wish we could figure out what's causing her to darken like that!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thank you Trillium for posting those. I was having all kinds of trouble. Like I said, I think it is just breeding two dogs TOGETHER who each have offspring that darkened. I hear you on the whole deal with some of the breeders only posting old photos of younger dogs. I am also tired of seeing enhanced pictures of reds. Better people are aware of exactly what their red puppy MAY look likke age two, rather than giving them a false hope of what their puppy will look like.

Brandi, the puppy from my current litter who went on to the show home in Alberta was way darker at eight weeks old than Betty-Jo was at eight weeks, so it will be so interesting for me to watch what happens with her colour!!


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## thestars

I have met a dark red male whom is 9 years old, his name is Sheldon whom Mithril Standards owns and studs out. He is a beautiful color, like a dark little puppy However, he has a broad rear skull. He is a nice dog but not the sharpest knife in the drawer as his owner attests to.


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## roxy25

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thank you Trillium for posting those. I was having all kinds of trouble. Like I said, I think it is just breeding two dogs TOGETHER who each have offspring that darkened. I hear you on the whole deal with some of the breeders only posting old photos of younger dogs. I am also tired of seeing enhanced pictures of reds. Better people are aware of exactly what their red puppy MAY look likke age two, rather than giving them a false hope of what their puppy will look like.
> 
> Brandi, the puppy from my current litter who went on to the show home in Alberta was way darker at eight weeks old than Betty-Jo was at eight weeks, so it will be so interesting for me to watch what happens with her colour!!


IA 100% 

I remember looking at a red breeders website and this breeder took a picture of her bitch with her new puppies under a red light ....:wacko:

I too hate how the red breeders who claim their dogs don't fade do not post latest pictures of their dogs. They keep these old ones up for years usually the dog is like 1 year-2 years in the pictures.


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## KPoos

thestars said:


> I have met a dark red male whom is 9 years old, his name is Sheldon whom Mithril Standards owns and studs out. He is a beautiful color, like a dark little puppy However, he has a broad rear skull. He is a nice dog but not the sharpest knife in the drawer as his owner attests to.


He's Harry's grandfather. Just found this out yesterday. Small world isn't it? I wouldn't say Harry is the sharpest knife in the drawer either but he's a cool kid.


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## Pamela

*heather* said:


> :laugh: I know I know... this is a overdone topic... I just have one question; *Does anyone out there own a Standard Red that is over 3 years old and has not faded? *
> There is so much talk about bad blacks and non-fading browns that it just got me thinking...... I've seen some really nice older blacks lately that are still a deep, dark, inky black, and a few deep browns that are still a rich chocolate brown even at 5 and 6 years old... but really, I don't think I've ever seen a red at that age that has not faded to an apricot shade of some sort. I would love to see if there are any "good REDS" out there!
> As most of you know, I have a wonderful 5month old red pup that I love with all my heart. I am fully aware that he will most likely fade to a nice apricot color and I'm ok with that.
> I just want to see if any of those claims about non-fading REDS actually exist.


Ginger is 4 and is still red but she has a lot of white hairs within her coat now so she is lighted than she used to be but still red I wouldn't call her apricot - she is still red. and its funny - some days she looks redder than others - and after a bath she looks redder (all the dirt gone? lol)


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## Pamela

Pamela said:


> Ginger is 4 and is still red but she has a lot of white hairs within her coat now so she is lighted than she used to be but still red I wouldn't call her apricot - she is still red. and its funny - some days she looks redder than others - and after a bath she looks redder (all the dirt gone? lol)


Here are the lastest pictures of her -she looks redder in the sunlight


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## *heather*

Ginger does look great for 4!! You're right, I wouldn't call her apricot at all!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I wouldn't call most of the reds that fade apricot. If you see an actual apricot and a faded red saide by side, the tones of their coats are entirely different. Apricots are yellow toned, reds are golden or rust. So even when a red fades, it is obviously still red.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

BTW...now I feel guilty. I took photos of last years litter under a red light, but not to enhance ( it actually did nothing to improve the colour!!) but rather because the babies happened to be under a heat lamp and I just went in to them to take candid photos of them. I was not trying to mislead anyone. I didn't need to because their colour was fabulous, but if anyone thinks that was my intent, I appologize!


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## bigredpoodle

As time goes on in the red breeding program we will see. I think that there are reds out there that are holding the color. The problem is the health as well . We need to be sure that we are testing the foundation reds for not just color but other things as well. I have color tested all my reds and none of them carry the fading Gene.It is also important for me to breed for the black points, so this is another reason that I color test. I have been contacted by folks that have reds that do. So The fact that DDC said a red has never tested poitive for the fading gene is incorrect. I would never tell a prospective puppy buyer that my reds do not fade !!!!!We just do not know yet !!!!


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## bigredpoodle

Here is my males at almost three.


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## roxy25

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I wouldn't call most of the reds that fade apricot. If you see an actual apricot and a faded red saide by side, the tones of their coats are entirely different. Apricots are yellow toned, reds are golden or rust. So even when a red fades, it is obviously still red.


I agree I do not know why people try to call a faded dog another color just because it faded. If it was born red and was read for a few years its a red  



> BTW...now I feel guilty. I took photos of last years litter under a red light, but not to enhance ( it actually did nothing to improve the colour!!) but rather because the babies happened to be under a heat lamp and I just went in to them to take candid photos of them. I was not trying to mislead anyone. I didn't need to because their colour was fabulous, but if anyone thinks that was my intent, I appologize!



HAHAHA Its ok it was not you that I saw doing this , I never seen your picture anyways. It was some BYB on puppy find she was obviously using the light to make the pups look redder. 



> I have color tested all my reds and none of them carry the fading Gene.


See here is the problem Vetgen stated they have not found the fading Gene . If I recall D = dilute gene and this is not the fading gene. Labs carry D genes and I never seen any lab fade same with dobies.....


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> I agree I do not know why people try to call a faded dog another color just because it faded. If it was born red and was read for a few years its a red
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HAHAHA Its ok it was not you that I saw doing this , I never seen your picture anyways. It was some BYB on puppy find she was obviously using the light to make the pups look redder.
> 
> 
> 
> See here is the problem Vetgen stated they have not found the fading Gene . If I recall D = dilute gene and this is not the fading gene. Labs carry D genes and I never seen any lab fade same with dobies.....


dd is fading DD is not


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> dd is fading DD is not


but D is for dilute gene not fading gene , so you dogs just do not carry the dilute gene.

I emailed Vetgen and this was the reply

"We do not have discovery of the gene that would cause this.

We are not aware of its availability elsewhere.

Thank you for your inquiry.



Regards,



Ann Arnold

[email protected]"


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## bigredpoodle

Well then so they have been taking our money .... Hmm interesting. So we are back to looking at pedigrees..Which i do as well the color test is pretty much a joke from what you are saying saves me almost 80 per dog HA HA !!!


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> Well then so they have been taking our money .... Hmm interesting. So we are back to looking at pedigrees..Which i do as well the color test is pretty much a joke from what you are saying saves me almost 80 per dog HA HA !!!


You know what when I first started to learn about red I was so CONFUSED into what people where talking about with the fading gene being D allele. Because the Dilution gene is present in a lot of breeds that do not fade. Since I was into apbt , this breed comes in Blue a lot and they are called dilutes and most likely if you tested them they would be dd. Since more experience people where telling me about the fading gene being d I never questioned them. It never really made since to me lol Cbrand also made me question it even more so this is why I emailed Vetgen.


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## roxy25

Now my mind got to thinking maybe if your dog tested out dd this means a liver nose ? or the dogs nose will end up liver and not completely black ?

I have seen poodles noses change colors. In apbt there are two types of reds. One is a red red like how your red poodles are and one is a Red nose. I wonder if the red nose apbt would test out as dd since I think they area a dilute also ( I am not sure ) 

red apbt with black points 
http://www.amberlitekennels.com/bogan.html ( this color is hard to come by in apbt) 


red nose apbt 

http://www.caragankennel.com/females.html


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## bigredpoodle

I wonder ? 
I am concerned about brown being present so I will still test for that but save myself the DD test. Love the pics of the Pitties .. Thanks for sharing


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> Now my mind got to thinking maybe if your dog tested out dd this means a liver nose ? or the dogs nose will end up liver and not completely black ?
> 
> I have seen poodles noses change colors. In apbt there are two types of reds. One is a red red like how your red poodles are and one is a Red nose. I wonder if the red nose apbt would test out as dd since I think they area a dilute also ( I am not sure )
> 
> red apbt with black points
> http://www.amberlitekennels.com/bogan.html ( this color is hard to come by in apbt)
> 
> 
> red nose apbt
> 
> http://www.caragankennel.com/females.html


I would not breed a litter with brown . So I am not sure about that . So far I have talked to one person who has browns in the pedigree and there were brown noses in the litter Her bitch is Dd and so we know that to be true in this case. So in the future is she breeds to a DD will the babies be DD or Dd interesting, we will find out


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## bigredpoodle

Oh i forgot to say that her bitch has a black nose with the Dd


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> I would not breed a litter with brown . So I am not sure about that . So far I have talked to one person who has browns in the pedigree and there were brown noses in the litter Her bitch is Dd and so we know that to be true in this case. So in the future is she breeds to a DD will the babies be DD or Dd interesting, we will find out


Was this a poodle or a apbt ? A brown dog with black nose ?


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> Was this a poodle or a apbt ? A brown dog with black nose ?


Poodle Red with a brown nose in the pedigree and in the litter Browns in the background. Sorry it made sense when I wrote it :doh:Her bitch is VERY red and has a black nose (POODLE) But she is BbDd.


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> Poodle Red with a brown nose in the pedigree and in the litter Browns in the background. Sorry it made sense when I wrote it :doh:Her bitch is VERY red and has a black nose (POODLE) But she is BbDd.


OOO Ok That makes sense now lol


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## Fluffyspoos

Hm.. Yeeah.. everything you guys are saying is pretty much going "WHOOSH" right over my head. 

So.. is a fading gene okay in whites? Since I see a lot of them born with cream or apricot on them, normally the ears, but are very white when they grow up with still very dark points.


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> OOO Ok That makes sense now lol


HA HA Okay good sorry about that Like I said It made sense at the time then whenI read it ....HA HA .... It made no sense..


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## bigredpoodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> Hm.. Yeeah.. everything you guys are saying is pretty much going "WHOOSH" right over my head.
> 
> So.. is a fading gene okay in whites? Since I see a lot of them born with cream or apricot on them, normally the ears, but are very white when they grow up with still very dark points.


Is this a concern in whites ?


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> Is this a concern in whites ?


I dunno if its a concern in whites or silvers. I don't think breeders worry about it really not unless they did not want creams and just whites? , mostly just black poodle breeders worry about that. Like others had stated on here you can have a black fade ( bad black) then you have the nice inky blacks that stay black their whole life. 


I still have not seen a inky black ( all of the show dogs are young ) so I never know whats what in the ring, I also seen dyed dogs so that does not help at all. 

The browns are super confusing to me still. How can you tell a cafe au lait from a regular brown ? I can tell the difference with the silver beige and the browns but never cafe au laits.


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> I dunno if its a concern in whites or silvers. I don't think breeders worry about it really not unless they did not want creams and just whites? , mostly just black poodle breeders worry about that. Like others had stated on here you can have a black fade ( bad black) then you have the nice inky blacks that stay black their whole life.
> 
> 
> I still have not seen a inky black ( all of the show dogs are young ) so I never know whats what in the ring, I also seen dyed dogs so that does not help at all.
> 
> The browns are super confusing to me still. How can you tell a cafe au lait from a regular brown ? I can tell the difference with the silver beige and the browns but never cafe au laits.


the bitch that I competed against in Flagstaff was INKY black had three majors and was stunning Did not mind losing to her that day  
I think the resposabilty lies with the breeder to properly color code the puppies at birth. So if you are breeding for brown keep the silvers out of the line If you are breeding for silver biege bring it onilvers that is ) . Am I correct in this thinking ?


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> Is this a concern in whites ?


I would think so...
It all depends on the gene... dilute genes affect the color of the nose... greying genes does not.

So, with that said I would imagine that breeders of whites would prefer a greying gene over a dilute gene as they want to keep the points on their dogs black and not liver or fading.


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## jak

So, if it is a dilute gene in a white dog, they can end up with a liver nose?
And that would be D for non-dilute, and d for dilute?
So a DD homozygous dominant would be totally unaffected, a Dd heterozygous would be a carrier, and a dd homozygous recessive would be a sufferer?

And without the test, what would consider a sufferer? a dog that is born with a liver nose, a dog that is born black and faded to liver?

Or am I completely and utterly wrong on this entire subject?

Thanks


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## PonkiPoodles

jak said:


> So, if it is a dilute gene in a white dog, they can end up with a liver nose?
> And that would be D for non-dilute, and d for dilute?
> So a DD homozygous dominant would be totally unaffected, a Dd heterozygous would be a carrier, and a dd homozygous recessive would be a sufferer?
> 
> And without the test, what would consider a sufferer? a dog that is born with a liver nose, a dog that is born black and faded to liver?
> 
> Or am I completely and utterly wrong on this entire subject?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, D is dominant (non-dilute) so dogs that are Dd will not be diluted but are carriers of the dilute gene (d)
A dog that is dd will be dilute.

Now you can't say that a dog with a liver nose is a sufferer, because genetics are just not that simple, there are many different genes that affect coat and point colors.
There are 2 tipes of liver (bb and dd) so a dog can either have a nose that is liver (bb) or a liver dilute which is (dd)... (dd) can range anywhere from dark brown nose to pink. The other problem is that if the dog is genetically black with a dilute gene then the nose will be (dd) blue dilute. Also a blue diluted nose can often be so dark that it seems black.

If that makes any sense :wacko:


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## jak

So any guesses what my dog could be?

She has black pigmentation on lips, eyerims and pads, and had a black nose as a puppy, but now it is liver. I know she pretty much lived outside as a puppy, but slept inside at nights.

Her brother has a fully black nose, her sister has a slightly off black nose. Not sure about her parents, but her grandmother apparently had same nose as her. But they made it black, lol, and her grandfather's both had fully black noses.


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## katsdogworld

Speaking of fading noses on white spoos, and my apologies for veering off subject here, but I found it interesting and a bit off-putting that it was fairly commonplace at the akc show to dye faded noses using some weird human chemical product that required several steps of application. Because dog shows are supposed to reward correct type, and a fading nose is a fault, why would it be fair or justified to "cheat" in order to get faded noses past? The whole point of showing is to determine good breeding stock, right?


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## roxy25

katsdogworld said:


> Speaking of fading noses on white spoos, and my apologies for veering off subject here, but I found it interesting and a bit off-putting that it was fairly commonplace at the akc show to dye faded noses using some weird human chemical product that required several steps of application. Because dog shows are supposed to reward correct type, and a fading nose is a fault, why would it be fair or justified to "cheat" in order to get faded noses past? The whole point of showing is to determine good breeding stock, right?


I agree Kat , this is why when I see Dyed Black dogs in the ring I am :doh:


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## wishpoo

Well - that is where "great pigmentation" comes when one describes a dog of superior quality and you are absolutely right - people cheat in a ring by "blackening " black dogs hair !!!! I did not see noses done :wacko:- that is just preposterous :bird: !!!! How is it allowed ????? Black nose is a MUST for both black and white poodle for showing :doh::fish:


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## PonkiPoodles

jak said:


> So any guesses what my dog could be?
> 
> She has black pigmentation on lips, eyerims and pads, and had a black nose as a puppy, but now it is liver. I know she pretty much lived outside as a puppy, but slept inside at nights.
> 
> Her brother has a fully black nose, her sister has a slightly off black nose. Not sure about her parents, but her grandmother apparently had same nose as her. But they made it black, lol, and her grandfather's both had fully black noses.


If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot). For example weimeraners, blue pit bulls, fawn/blue dobermans etc. But as I've said before this is not a rule of thumb as there are many different genes that work together to create coat and point colors.

It won't be because of the greying gene as this does not affect the color of the eye rims and/or nose. Dogs who carry the greying gene are usually born black or dark liver and lighten over time for example: yorkshire terriers, kerry blue terriers, bedlington terriers... even thou they lighten their eye rims and nose color remains black.

Determining genes in dogs is not always easy because there are quite a few genes they can not accurately test for. I think the greying gene is one of them. 

What do they use to color/dye the noses with?


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## jak

PonkiPoodles said:


> If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot). For example weimeraners, blue pit bulls, fawn/blue dobermans etc. But as I've said before this is not a rule of thumb as there are many different genes that work together to create coat and point colors.
> 
> It won't be because of the greying gene as this does not affect the color of the eye rims and/or nose. Dogs who carry the greying gene are usually born black or dark liver and lighten over time for example: yorkshire terriers, kerry blue terriers, bedlington terriers... even thou they lighten their eye rims and nose color remains black.
> 
> Determining genes in dogs is not always easy because there are quite a few genes they can not accurately test for. I think the greying gene is one of them.
> 
> What do they use to color/dye the noses with?


I have heard of a thing called "De nose nos"


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## Fluffyspoos

PonkiPoodles said:


> If your dog previously had a black nose that turned to liver this is proabably because of loss of pigment and not because of the dilute gene. Dogs who are dilute are usually born diluted. (meaning that if they are blue they will be born blue or slightly darker than blue or if they are apricot they will be born apricot).


This had me going "Aaahhh!" thanks for the great explanation! So you're saying those dogs will eventually fade to a washed out color?


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## PonkiPoodles

Fluffyspoos said:


> This had me going "Aaahhh!" thanks for the great explanation! So you're saying those dogs will eventually fade to a washed out color?


Not necessarily, like I mentioned, many genes are involved in coat and point color. Often the loss of pigment can vary in intensity. Some dogs might have a slight fading on their nose and others will have their nose turn completely pink and have their eye rims affected as well.
A black changing to pink/liver nose can also be the results of a “winter” or “snow” nose (which is not permanent) or can be caused by the disease Vitiligo, but I think that is unlikely because Vitiligo sufferers also looses pigment in their coat, which causes patches of their coat to turn completely white.

A dudley nose does not affect the coat color as far as I know and there is not really any treatment for it. But seeing as it doesn't harm the dog, I don't think it is something that you should be too concerned about.
For some reason I thought I read somewhere that you could slow the loss of pigment process by adding kelp to your dog's food?!?! But don't take my word for it  I've never tried it. "Life Line" makes Ocean kelp that you can add to dogfood if you want to test the theory.


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## 814

*non fading red standard fadct or fiction*

Hi there, I am new to this forum but as I understand it DD means non-dulite, dd means dulite and Dd means carries for dulite, BB refers to the points, BB means black points, Bb means black points carrying for brown points and bb means brown points, as with brown, and silverbeige. I have a red girl that I reciently got color tested and she is DD ee Bb meaning red with black points, but carrying for brown points and no dulite gene. You are right tho that there is no test for silvering gene but no silvers in her pedigree so hopefully I will have a better chance of Dark Red puppies.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Heather...

I just wanted you to see these photos so you'd knoe Betty and Jenny are not flukes of nature. This is Eleanor, their litter sister. I just got these adult photos of her yesterday. The first is of of her at about eight weeks old( she has the red collar), and the second two are current photos of the same girl. She has darkened remarkably and again, it must be that Holly and Dugan both tend to throw darkening pups.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well poop, that didn't work. I will try for baby photos again.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Sorry...my photos of these guys as youngsters are not cooperating, but if you go to my web site, there are a ton there on the Meet Our Dogs page and then 2008 litter photos.


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## Trillium

I just thought I'd give Arreau a hand with baby Eleanor pics.


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