# Inbreeding



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

I had a couple over the other night and they were talking about possibly getting a dog in the future. One of them mentioned that purebreds were nice, but then you have the health problems. I told her how I thought before I got Lumi. I thought I'd be sacrificing health by choosing a purebred. But, as I researched breeders I learned that a well-bred purebred can be *healthier* than the average mutt! Go figure! It wouldn't surprise me, though, if the average mutt is still healthier than the average purebred since only a minority of the purebreds are from good breeders. : /


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Some of the mini breeders I contacted while searching for Angie told me their dogs typically lived 15, 16 years. I'm sure that's not news to breeders on this forum.

I'm a strong supporter of education, and we poodle owners can do what we can do to correct misconceptions about the breed. 

I continue to believe many people actually LIKE so many poodle traits, but it's the poodle's "image" that they aren't quite comfortable with. In other words, they want to own a poodle and it may be their ideal pet (even if they don't realize that), but they don't want to say they own a poodle.

Forums like this one are so helpful in promoting the breed and addressing people's concerns and disinformation.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

minipoodlelover said:


> Some of the mini breeders I contacted while searching for Angie told me their dogs typically lived 15, 16 years. I'm sure that's not news to breeders on this forum.
> 
> I'm a strong supporter of education, and we poodle owners can do what we can do to correct misconceptions about the breed.
> 
> ...


You literally just described me not too long ago. I've spent years searching for a non-shedding, smart, child-friendly, not-so-fragile dog to be my "dream dog", but always cast aside the poodle for being too "prissy". The more I learned about them, the more I realized they are the rough-and-tumble "dog's dog" I have been looking for. 

I guess the stereotype has been around forever, since I just remembered a time when I was child, my dad's friend had a HUGE standard poodle (well, huge to a three/four year old who's only gotten to experience a real life dog a handful of times). When my dad told me it was a poodle I remember being in shock. For one, because it was so big, and I always thought there were only the smaller sized versions, and second, because he was sooo friendly and playful, NOT what I had imagined poodles to be. I just find it weird that I was aware of this "image" you mentioned, even at that young of an age.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

It just amazes me as I have had poodles for 30 years, when I was younger primarily because I have severe allergies and that's the only dog my parents could get for me. And, well, it's been poodles forever since then.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

"oh". Well, I hear with all the poodle inbreeding, they have lots of problems, which is why I have a doodle. Sigh. She was on her way...

And that is when I would have called out..."PT Barnum did say "There's a sucker born every minute!"

Ah! maybe I wouldn't have! But I would have wanted to! :aetsch:

We try so hard to educate, and a lot of puppy buyers will tell you they have researched...but after having my first litter I'll respond saying...I'm not sure exactly what they researched! :2in1:

As advocates for the breed we can only try!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

One of the links to an article about the doodle craze posted on another thread had a comment section, and I skimmed through the first page of comments. The article referred to the fact that some celebrities owned doodles, which may have contributed to their popularity. Here is one reader's comment (not mine!) 

"Glad someone found a way to make money off of stupid celebrities. OOPs my two different breed dogs mated. What will I do with the pups? I know..... I'll call them designer dogs even though they are just mutts and I'll sell them to idiot celebs that will pay 1500 dollars.

It just shows that there is a sucker born every minute."


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

> Posted by *lilkjaker*:
> Well, was just walking Sunny and someone was walking behind us. It was a lady and she kept calling HIM "Fifi" --- he gets that alot, being mistaken as a she since he is so light on his feet and prances........anyway, I said 'Fifi's name is Sunny." Sunny stopped and observed this, since she kept talking. Sunny still react with utmost caution with new people and was watching her as she was speaking. She said, "wow he really looks smart" "is it a doodle or a poodle?" As I wrinkled my nose I said, no he's a poodle (didn't get that one -- since he is very poodly looking) anyway she said, "oh". Well, I hear with all the poodle inbreeding, they have lots of problems, which is why I have a doodle. Sigh. She was on her way.


I would have had a few choice words for this woman, none of them pleasant.  I would have called her "Moron," and if she asked why, I'd have said, "Oh, I don't know. You just resemble one." 

To follow up her ridiculous statement about poodle inbreeding and health problems, I'd have gone with something like: "Yeah, I hear that's a problem with humans too, only it manifests as a low IQ." 

I get tired of hearing: "Oh, look--it's a poodle parade." Gah! (I guess I should be thankful nobody has mistaken them for -oodles.)


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

What's really sad is when you start to believe your poodle is smarter than some people you know or run into :alberteinstein:


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

If you breed a golden retriever with hip dysplasia to a standard poodle with hip dysplasia, guess what? Odds are you'll get a doodle with hip dysplasia. I can't even tell you how many cockerpoos I groom that have patellar luxation, because both of those breeds are prone to it. I groom a doodle with dwarfism, where all of her siblings in the litter had normal long legs, she has basset hound legs. I also groom both the mother spoo and father golden. It was an accidental mating in the park. :argh:

The breed doesn't matter. Genetically, dogs are dogs. Breeds are not exactly the same as a subspecies, but similar to it. If both parents—no matter what breed they are—have or carry the genes for the same congenital problem, the puppies can still be born with that problem.

I wish more people could grasp this crucial difference, particularly when it comes to genetic defects. So-called "hybrid vigour" does not apply to mixed breed dogs because they are still 99.9% genetically identical. A mixed breed dog is not a hybrid. A hybrid is a crossing of two similar species. Horse (64 chromosomes) + Donkey (62) = Mule (63, infertile). Lion (38) + Tiger (38) = Liger (38, occasionally fertile, because they share the same number of chromosomes). Dog breed A + Dog breed B= still a Dog (and nearly always fertile, more than capable of passing on genetic flaws).

And anyway, the hybrid vigour theory doesn't always hold when the genetic flaw has similar enough genetic info in both species. You can still get a mule with a club feet. In fact, in horses, club feet are often called "mule feet", because a ton of mules have this genetic defect.

/rant. My point being is that if people really researched anything, they might actually learn something they don't know. Are purebred dogs inbred? Sometimes, yes. More often though, they are linebred (may share a common ancestor within the pedigree, usually beyond the third generation). Most conscientious and educated breeders of purebred animals will not resort to inbreeding to set a trait in this day and age. I think for the most part they've learned from past mistakes.


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## kysteelerja (Oct 2, 2011)

How many so called ~oodles are there....what are they exactly...labradoodles i have heard of .....are there others? i have a similar opinion of the person in minipoodlelover's post........guess that makes me a snob.....never was one for the so called designer dogs. not that i have a problem Heinz 57s most of my dogs have been of the latter variety....but i always remembered and missed my silver spoo we had when i was a kid.....Beau was such a sweet dog....glad i have my Bella.....she is such a cutie....


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

Heres a list of all the Poodle mixes.
all the mixes


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

minipoodlelover said:


> I continue to believe many people actually LIKE so many poodle traits, but it's the poodle's "image" that they aren't quite comfortable with. In other words, they want to own a poodle and it may be their ideal pet (even if they don't realize that), but they don't want to say they own a poodle.


I always knew I wanted a poodle, and now that I have one, I keep looking for the zipper!  Even my 5 year old daughter insisted that we get a poodle. She is a smart one, that girl!


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

catsaqqara said:


> Heres a list of all the Poodle mixes.
> all the mixes


Sheesh!!! This is insanity. It's also a sorry sight to see so many of these crosses in rescues or on the lists of petfinders.com. Truly, I don't think many people who buy these crosses have the foggiest idea of what they're really getting, or what kind of adult (appearance- and temperament-wise) their puppy will become.


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## kysteelerja (Oct 2, 2011)

*ohmyheavens.....*

minipoodlelover.....i had no idea....that is soooo so sad and scary.....why would anyone with a full blooded animal want to do.....ok nevernind that...thanks for the enlightening info.....i will refer to it often...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Bonnie was running around the dog park today playing with a labradoodle who was shaved very, very short. His name is Lucky. The owner and I have become dog park friends because our dogs like to play together. Her dog doesn't mind Bonnie's rough play or ball stealing. Lucky's owner is a very nice person. She said she wished she could have her dog in as long a haircut as Bonnie. She asked if I had to brush her every day to keep the matts out. I very nicely told her that so far, Bonnie has never had a matt. I mentioned that mixing hair with fur, as in poodle hair and lab fur, created matts. She agreed and said, "I wish I was more educated when I got Lucky. I thought I was getting a poodle without the poodle problems." I talked to her a bit about how poodles are nice dogs and don't have to have any problems. 

I was really proud of myself for being nice and not being snippy with her because she was so open to poodles and interested in my dog. She asked all kinds of questions about my poodle. I even saw Lucky as a nice dog, too. She is a great new friend and I feel like I educated her a bit. She may educate others now? I won't ever care much for doodles, but I might make an exception for Lucky. He likes playing with my rough puppy.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I've shared my "poodle enlightenment" story before, so I won't bore you with again. Here's my question about doodles: what do the labs and goldens bring to the party other than a more macho reputation? Poodles seem to be everything a lab / golden is plus more: friendly (although not as much everyone's immediate best friend), eager to please, wicked smart, non-shedding.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I've shared my "poodle enlightenment" story before, so I won't bore you with again. *Here's my question about doodles: what do the labs and goldens bring to the party other than a more macho reputation? *Poodles seem to be everything a lab / golden is plus more: friendly (although not as much everyone's immediate best friend), eager to please, wicked smart, non-shedding.


Goldens and Labs are the "Yuppie," McMansion, hulking SUV dog around here. You must have one lab, 2.5 children, a McMansion in a trendy 'hood and of course, an enormous luxury SUV. So they're essentially a status symbol, something you buy to keep up with the Joneses. 

I'm thinking that's what their owners feel they bring to the party. They want the token dog minus the shedding and drooling and they THINK that by getting a '-oodle,' they're satisfying all these needs.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

I wouldn't have ended up with a poodle had I not trained a Doodle this summer. Till that point I was sold on another GSD cross as my next dog. But comparing the Aussiedoodle's temperament to the Aussies I used to be around, I could isolate what he got from the poodle, and realized how much I enjoyed it. 

I think the biggest problem with the big doodle crosses, is they're crossing 2 active driven breeds who need a job, and expecting the results to be a family pet. I'm not advocating the little ones either, but at least they're crossing with a calmer breed that might work for more people. Suki, who I had this summer was an awesome dog but big, strong, birdy, driven, and ACTIVE. And with a family who shouldn't have had a dog, let alone a big driven birdy active one.

I think it comes down to education. Getting poodles out and showing what fun dogs they are, and not demeaning the doodles but instead pointing out why they got their good points from the poodles, emphasizing that poodles are working dogs first. The best way to do that is to show people and get our poodles out in public!


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Cookieface, it's not so much what the other breeds bring to the party as what the puppy buyers *think* they're bringing to the party!! They assume all the best qualities of a Lab or Golden will be merged with all the best qualities of a Poodle (most notably, lack of shedding and intelligence). Magically. As if the little gene fairies inside momma dog will know just what traits we like and don't like, and produce only perfect amalgamations of Mom and Dad! If only! 

That said, the best traits I think of with (well-bred) Labs and Goldens is a certain calm and easygoing nature that comes with not being overly analytical of their surroundings and goings-on. Poodles are just *too* smart for some people! Like Border Collies. It's a wonderful trait, but can lead to neurosis and behavior problems in an under-stimulated dog. People want "intelligent" but they don't want "neurotic", and they don't realize that intelligence needs an outlet. And, as a groomer, I think the number one reason I hear from PoodleX owners is appearance and the "low-maintenance, non-shedding" coat! Again, I suppose the gene fairies are sleeping on the job. The lies that breeders tell make me want to punch them! I get one year old pelted crosses coming in for their first groom with "The breeder told me she didn't need grooming." Agh!! And some people just plain don't like the look of a Poodle. My brother is one of them. His ideal dog would *be* a Poodle - running partner, non-shedding, smart - but he says they look "nappy", even shaved down! He doesn't like the curls. He thinks Lumi's adorable (it's actually pretty cute, he's kind of smitten with her), but he told me the other day that she doesn't even look like a dog. Which, I took as a complement, being a creative groomer. : ) I like my little hedgehog. 

And then, of course, it's just the in thing. Designer dogs. "Oooh, my mixed breed dog was *planned*! It's like custom-made! Isn't that neat?!" We should start calling shelter mixes "Mystery Mutts" or "Love Children" or "Exotic Blends".


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