# Refusal to train (toy breed)



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

A dog shutting down isn't fun, but it can be worked through! 

The way you are giving the treat might be a problem. He may not like a hand coming in to his face. He might have a bad association that we don't know about. I would switch to a treat that looks different. Like a dab of peanut butter on a wooden spoon. You can offer this treat moving it away from him so there's no unintended pressure.

The other is the clicker. It might be overwhelming, too unfamiliar, or he might have a bad association with it. You can try using a clicky-pen for a lesser noise. Or you can use a verbal sound or word. It's slightly less effective, but it will work. I teach my dogs that "yes" equals click. 

Sit is way to much to ask of him right now. Attitude comes first. When does he start shutting down? 

Confining is OK, but him feeling enclosed won't help. Try putting him on a leash and steeping on the end of he leash. He's confined but not feeling as trapped as in a bathroom.

I would not quit if he shuts down. You're reinforcing the shutting down. You should patiently wait it out. Hours if you must. Just hang out with him and wait for him to relax. Then feed. He will learn that sitting with you and treats is not dangerous. After he feels safe, it should be straighforward training.

Or, you can click something tiny. Any movement. Eye movement. Anything that is less-shutting-down. This can be really effective if the dog is not too stressed to take treats and the clicker noise is not part of the problem.

You can set him up. Act like your going to train, get everything out, start to cue something, and then whip out a training toy and "dance away". This teaches "getting started to train is kinda fun!"

There are a lot of ways to interrupt this pattern of behavior. All of them will require patience from you. Working through this will develop his trust in you, so it's much more valuable that just trick and obedience training.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Aw, he sounds scared! Maybe training time in a previous home in always resulted in aversives. The person may have presented a treat, asked him to sit, and then punished him if he didn't. He may have a negative association with any number of things; the cue itself, your posture and attitude (not that it's wrong, but I'm sure he can tell you've put your "teaching cap" on, and that may scare him if a previous owner did that before getting harsh with him), or being offered a treat while you're in that mode. 

I'd try just having "treat sessions" for now. You may need to begin them after he potties if you find that's the only time he'll take treats from you. Just offer him one after the other with lots of praise and end quickly, within a few seconds. Lengthen the time as you can, when he starts showing no signs of anxiety or apprehension. Maybe even feed him his meals that way, one kibble at a time. If you notice he gets anxious, then put the treat away and try to engage him in play to end on a good note. He needs to come to trust that just because you're engaging with him and there are treats at stake, it doesn't mean anything bad is going to happen. There are no criteria at this point, just be careful not to reward behaviors that you don't like, such as jumping up or biting your fingers. *If* he does something you don't like during these sessions, I wouldn't even issue a "eh-eh" as it may scare him off. I'd ignore anything you don't like and begin issuing treats once he gets it right on his own. Or, you can just end the session at that point and be glad that he's bringing some enthusiasm to the game!! : ) You can do this with or without clicking before each treat,and I suggest doing both. This way he won't come to rely on the clicker to know he can trust you. : )

Once he's happily enjoying these "treat sessions" for a minute or two at a time, then add very small criteria. Make it simple and try to keep the interval between treats very short. You don't want him to start worrying that you're going to get mad if he doesn't "get it right" soon! As time goes by he should come to enjoy the game of figuring out what you want to get that tasty treat, but for now he may need a lot of reassurance that this is a *good* thing and nothing but a fun time with you! : )

Also, if Louis has already had a bad association with the word (which may not be the case, it may just be the whole "training mode" that's making him nervous and later he'll be more receptive to whatever words you use), then you may want to choose a different cue for that behavior. You can say sit in another language, or use something like "plant it", "park it" or, "pop a squat". 

This has nothing to do with Louis' particular situation, but I prefer to add the cue after the dog knows the behavior. Lure or shape him into a sit until he's regularly offering it to you, with no cue. Then add the cue as he performs the behavior. After many repetitions try offering the cue to elicit the behavior. This way they don't get desensitized to the word during the first session or two when they have no idea what they're doing, yet. : P


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think he sounds like a candidate for free shaping - possibly using something other than the clicker, if he has now learned to associate that with horribly dangerous TRAINING (it does sound as if he has had a bad experience with that in the past).

I would tell him it is a whole new game - he is going to teach you to give him treats. Sit somewhere where he is very relaxed, and has lots of space, and toss him a few treats just for being himself, then toss him a treat for doing anything at all. I wouldn't set any rules as to what you are rewarding - let him try out different behaviours. Play for a few minutes, then say game over, and settle down with a book or the TV for a cuddle. Next day, play again for a few minutes. If he seems to be getting stressed, stop even sooner - if he has learned that bad things happen during "training" he may quickly shut down as a way of protecting himself, and you don't want to get near that threshold. Once he is looking forward to the sessions, choose one of the behaviours he throws at you most often and reward that. When he dashes back from getting the treat and does whatever it is again and again, put a cue to it. Then reward it when he does it on cue.

If he gets very relaxed with this game he may become comfortable with being lured, but I would not do anything that might damage your obviously very happy relationship with him by stirring up bad memories of the past - you know him best. Think outside the box - perhaps there are things he does when you are playing that you can reward with more play (Sophy quickly learned to Huff to make me continue the tummy tickling game she loves). A tiny shift in your body position may be enough to make him sit, or move to one side. He may find hand signals less threatening than words. When you come to add cues, try a foreign language that he has never heard, so there can be no negative connotations. If he feels relaxed and in control of the situation, and knows that he can trust you, I am sure you will get to a point where you both have lots of fun learning together - although it will probably take quite a bit of time and patience on your part.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I wonder if 'Sit' has a negative association from his past? Maybe have the clicker in your pocket to dampen the noise, and use a new word for sitting instead of sit, like 'On your bum!'


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

I have a soft dog, that shuts down periodically. She has not been hit, nor had any negative (as in harsh reprimands) experiences with training. However, like most dogs, she will occasionally "refuse" a command. She does this either by walking away, lying down, or shrinking in on herself like she's about to be hit (submissive type behaviour).

Pammi's post covered what has worked for her. Her "steps" to learning a behaviour are broken down into much, much smaller steps than "normal". Also training sessions with her are short, I mean really short, while she's learning the behaviour. One success = end of lesson, and this is for at least 3 training sessions. Then 2 success for at least 3 sessions and so on. 

I have accidentally conditioned her to respond negatively to a command, and have had to change my "cue". And that also means starting over from the beginning.

A very big thing with Callie is I NEVER ask her for a behaviour with a "cue" unless I KNOW that SHE KNOWS what I'm asking of her. When I've made this mistake in the past, I absolutely guaranteed that she would shut down, and I would have to give her a break of several days before starting all over again.

They are harder dogs to train, but it can be done, it just takes longer, and more patience, and very clear communication between handler and dog.

I've had Callie in Agility for 6 weeks now. She only learned 2 obstacles in class. Every other one had to be done at home, slowly and carefully. By the next class she was able to successfully complete the exercise. I love my girl, lol!

ETA: She does not do clicker training. As suggested by Tortoise we use a cue word "Yesssss" with a sibilant ssss sound. She knows it means treats!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Good point about "poisoning" the cue. Technically, in shaping you're not even supposed to give the behavior a cue word until it is done just the way you want it. This is kind of the opposite of the "traditional" training I grew up on, where you would say, "Sit!" and then mold (or, in harsher methodologies, jerk) the dog into a sitting position. Maybe that's what someone tried to do with Louis, and now he doesn't even like the word!

Instead, wait until the dog sits (or lies down), just on its own, and click or say your marker word, give a treat, or toss it so the dog has to move to get it. Eventually the dog will do, or "offer," whatever it was that keeps making treats appear. Don't say the cue word until the dog is almost instantly and consistently doing "that thing" during your training sessions. It might take a day or more. "Don't name it 'til you love it," as they say.

But yeah, with him you'll want to keep all your sessions really low pressure, relaxed, and with extremely scrumptious treats. Sounds like the poor little guy has gotten some bad experiences under his collar. But you can make things better for him. 

--Q


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Thanks everyone! I really appreciate your advice. It's new to me to deal with an acquired adult, and especially one who has had some past history. I felt so horrible today when he shrinked away from me like I was going to hit him!

I've come to the conclusion that he hates the clicker, he dislikes the "training mode" I go into, even if I keep it upbeat, and he dislikes the word "sit." Maybe he was hit when someone tried to train him. I cannot use the lure method because he immediately associates this with training and he runs away.

I've tried free shaping today so he has no idea that he is being trained, and I'm letting him think he's training me. So far so good. Before I gave him a bully stick, I sat (in a chair) calmly not making eye contact till he stopped dancing around and jumping and sat on his own. Then I presented him with the bully stick. He took it from my hand confidently. I didn't make any sounds. He laid down on the floor to chew it, but kept leaving the bully stick to come to the living room to see what I was doing. I sat on the floor, waved the bully stick around like a toy, he bounced around, but I did not give it to him till he sat. He took it from my hand just fine. SO I think this is what I need to keep doing for a while, then slowly adding in a cue word that is not "sit." I hope this works!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

That will work! 

When he leaves the bully stick on his own, I would pick it up and try again.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

tortoise said:


> That will work!
> 
> When he leaves the bully stick on his own, I would pick it up and try again.


I thought he left the bully stick to see what I was up to, but really it was to see what Leroy was up to. They are weird - I give them the exact same treats, but one waits to see what the other has, and waits till the other dog leaves so they can snatch it. Louis wasn't satisfied with laying down and chewing until I switched his and Leroy's bully sticks. (Oh and Leroy does the same thing to. I think they like ABC treats! (already been chewed!))


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Something I'm a bit confused about. If you don't "name" the behaviour and you are doing multiple reptitions before naming it, how would you work on more than one behaviour at the same time?

Rebecca


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> Something I'm a bit confused about. If you don't "name" the behaviour and you are doing multiple reptitions before naming it, how would you work on more than one behaviour at the same time?
> 
> Rebecca


It works best that only one behavior is not named at a time. As soon as the dog "gets it", I name it and begin the next behavior. Most dogs can pick up a new behavior every or every other day. It doesn't slow training.

There are other ways, but this one is the easiest to explain and it always works.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Agree with others that his previous experiences may have poisoned it for him, that he sees "training session" as a predictor of bad things.

Your approach with the bully stick is a great idea. And it's not totally necessary to use a clicker ... I also use a drawn out "yessss" when I don't have a clicker on me.

Re naming the behaviour ... I struggled with this too! The idea is (and it's been repeatedly demonstrated) that the best way to put a behaviour on cue is to wait until you can reliably predict the dog will do it, then add the word AS THE DOG IS DOING whatever. For example, lure 9 sits in a row, then on the tenth, add the word AS THE DOG IS SITTING (which you already know he will do, as you just got 9 of them). The dog then associates the word with his action, and you can build that repetition in. Over time, you then remove the lure and leave the word.

I find my dog is vastly more sensitive to physical cues than verbal ones. I end up using no words at all much of the time. It helps me be careful not to say one thing and do something different with my physical gestures.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*"sit" update*

I taught Louis how to sit! I thought it would take weeks of free shaping. I have been giving him things he wanted only when he sat on his own since my last post (that was only two days ago, lol). I got some treats out (dehydrated liver, then dried chicken) and casually passed them out each time he sat. I got brave and assigned a cue word, "sit" in Korean, which is "ahn-ja." He responded really well to the new word, probably because it was new and it sounds softer. He was sitting on command within 5 minutes. He was also very perky, happy, and very interested. At the end of "training" (I made him think it wasn't), we wrestled a bit. He keeps sitting and looking at me with a look "Where's the treats at?"

What a breakthrough!!!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> I taught Louis how to sit! I thought it would take weeks of free shaping. I have been giving him things he wanted only when he sat on his own since my last post (that was only two days ago, lol). I got some treats out (dehydrated liver, then dried chicken) and casually passed them out each time he sat. I got brave and assigned a cue word, "sit" in Korean, which is "ahn-ja." He responded really well to the new word, probably because it was new and it sounds softer. He was sitting on command within 5 minutes. He was also very perky, happy, and very interested. At the end of "training" (I made him think it wasn't), we wrestled a bit. He keeps sitting and looking at me with a look "Where's the treats at?"
> 
> What a breakthrough!!!


Completely awesome! :clap: Good for you!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Thank you! I am thrilled with his progress. We will practice sitting on command more of course, before introducing new stuff. Don't want to overwhelm him. I'm amazed how night and day his response is to me approaching him differently. He was very engaged and focused with free shaping and the new cue word, he cowered in fear with the clicker and command "sit." I think it helped that this time I sat on the floor to hand out treats, before I tried lure method while standing and I believe he was scared of me towering over him in an authoritative manner. Although I kept my voice happy, he didnt like the word "sit" and my body language was too strong. I did try to sit and try training previously but it was after me trying to make him sit with the clicker and he shut down by the time I sat.

Crazy how dogs are so different! Dog trainers must be so creative to work with the different personalities.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Brilliant - well done both of you! Now you have discovered how he likes to play the training game you can teach him practically anything!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

As an exercise intrust, I would work on the word sit and counter-condition his reaction. Not training sit means sit. Training sit means cookie. I'd keep doing it until your dog sits and he looks at you perky and relaxed thinking "where's my treat lady?!"

It's not necessary, but I'd do it.

Or.... you *could* train it as a trick, lol. I had a dog that I trained her to "pout" on command by chaining "sit" and "head down". She looked truly pathetic. Another trick is refusal, which can be hysterical. You choose a normal obedience word and teach the dog to refuse to dog it. Of course the obedience is trained with a different word. There's also the surprisingly easy "go hide" to teach a dog to crawl under furniture to "hide". Paired with "head down" you get a cute pathetic looking dog. Of course, if you attempt any of these, you should counter-condition the "sit" word, train the behavior and then reteach the sit cue if it's what you want to do. With a dog like yours you would need to watch out for his state of mind and make sure that he is only pretending to be sulky.

Or you can never say "sit" again.

I attached a photo of my dog's "pout" and one of her normal self. She went on to be a stunt dog and is an old, spoiled, retired lady now.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*Another update! Learned to "shake"*

Quick update. Thanks to everyone's wonderful suggestions (probably some of the best suggestions I've gotten!!! That's why I love this forum and the mix of people on here) - Louis learned how to "shake."

I know this is a simple trick, but I'm very excited because I have the confidence to train my fearful dog, who couldn't even learn "sit" without completely shutting down. Free-shaping is the best tool for him and I used that to teach him how to shake.

He is very receptive to this type of training cause to him it doesn't feel like he is being trained. I treated each time he moved his paw or lifted his leg. I kept placing my hand out to him, waiting for him to place his paw in it. Anytime he lifted his foot near my hand he got a treat. I really fell in love with the "Eureka" moment when he kept playing bowing trying to figure out what I wanted, then he sat down calmly, looked at me, saw my hand, and he slowly placed his paw in it!!! I also like the different personality he has from Leroy. Leroy gives up halfway through training after 3-4 repetitions. He refuses to work with me and would rather flail around on the floor. Louis has intense focus almost like a border collie. It takes him a little longer to get it, but once he got it he wouldn't stop trying to shake.

I don't know if I would have changed my approach to "dog training" if I didn't start this thread. Thanks everyone who contributed to it!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I am so thrilled for you an your dogs! Now you "get" the magic of clicker training. Keep having fun with it - you never know what you'll get.

My mpoo climbed over to wrestly with me and happened to hit his paw squarely into the palm of my hand. My brain goes "trick!", my mouth says "yes", and treats are never far away. Now he's giving me high-5's. 

Whenever you feel frustrated or discouraged, take a break to train something silly and bring the joy and passion back into "training".

:hug:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so happy for you and Louis - and so glad the advice on here helped. Sometimes it takes someone outside the situation to see another way around things!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I say, train your poodle and leave that little guy alone...lol


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> I really fell in love with the "Eureka" moment when he kept playing bowing trying to figure out what I wanted, then he sat down calmly, looked at me, saw my hand, and he slowly placed his paw in it!!!


I'm totally addicted to that moment ... it is great positive reinforcement for the trainer :smile:.

I predict many happy training sessions for the both of you.


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