# Poodle breeding program similar to Gaylans



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rambutan said:


> Are there Poodles breeders that have the same breeding philosophy that are like Gaylans but for poodles? I'm curious if there's breeders that want their buyers to health test their dogs when the time comes?
> 
> 
> 
> https://gaylans.com/about-us/expectations-yours-and-ours/


I haven't heard of any that do. I like that program, but I don't feel that it is necessary for pet dogs to undergo the same health testing. Golden retrievers have rather poor health as a breed so it may be warranted for them, but is not so necessary for poodles.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Yikes. Presumably they want to know the results of their breedings. If they need to know that, they should be willing to foot the bill, IMO.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I've seen a few workingline German Shepherd breeders require hip scans, but to be fair hip scans as a routine check make sense with German shepherds. Never seen it with poodles, or more than just the hip scans. 

That list of other things required would have me noping out of Gaylans as a breeder. Way too controlling.

Why on earth would they require genetic testing of the puppies? I assume they test the parents, which should clear the puppies. Everything else looks like it would add up to significantly more than the $700 they quote.


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> I haven't heard of any that do. I like that program, but I don't feel that it is necessary for pet dogs to undergo the same health testing. Golden retrievers have rather poor health as a breed so it may be warranted for them, but is not so necessary for poodles.


So, you're saying poodles are healthier than goldens or breeds that are badly bred in gener? I can say that some health testing would be nice for pet dogs like hips and elbows. Maybe von willbrands or whatever it's called would be a nice extra at the very least. Wouldn't it better for the breed to have that on file instead of blackholes in some pedigrees? I tried looking at other breeds and got told that OFA isn't a thing that they do.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rambutan said:


> So, you're saying poodles are healthier than goldens or breeds that are badly bred in gener? I can say that some health testing would be nice for pet dogs like hips and elbows. Maybe von willbrands or whatever it's called would be a nice extra at the very least. Wouldn't it better for the breed to have that on file instead of blackholes in some pedigrees? I tried looking at other breeds and got told that OFA isn't a thing that they do.


Yes, poodles are healthier than goldens. Goldens have notoriously poor health, especially in regard to cancer rates. The lifespan of a golden is currently 9-10 years. Standard poodles tend to live a few years longer. I wouldn't say a breed is "badly bred" just because breed health is poor. Generally the issues that caused health issues in our breeds arose many decades ago when genetics were not well understood. Even if a breed is carefully managed currently, past bottlenecks and use of afflicted popular sires can cause high prevalence of health issues. Breeds like dobermans, cavalier king charles spaniels, and bernese mountain dogs all suffer from very poor breed health as well.

All good poodle breeders complete genetic testing on parent dogs as well as eye evalutations, and orthopedic evaluations. It's not a black hole in any way. The PCA is very good about encouraging thorough health testing in this breed. In regard to genetic testing, there is really no point in having puppies tested if they are clear by parentage. All diseases that can be tested for are inherited from the parents. If the parent dogs test clear, the puppies will also be clear.

I can certainly think of reasons why it would be _interesting and useful_ to have orthopedic evaluations performed on all puppies. Orthopedic disease such as hip dysplasia is affected by genetics, environment, and hormones. Pet puppies that are spayed or neutered may develop hip dysplasia at different rates than intact parent dogs. Knowing the orthopedic health of these spayed and neutered puppies would be beneficial in advising future owners of possible increased risk of dysplasia due to spay/neuter. But I do think it's something that the breeder should pay for, and should probably also be negotiable.


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Yes, poodles are healthier than goldens. Goldens have notoriously poor health, especially in regard to cancer rates. The lifespan of a golden is currently 9-10 years. Standard poodles tend to live a few years longer. I wouldn't say a breed is "badly bred" just because breed health is poor. Generally the issues that caused health issues in our breeds arose many decades ago when genetics were not well understood. Even if a breed is carefully managed currently, past bottlenecks and use of afflicted popular sires can cause high prevalence of health issues. Breeds like dobermans, cavalier king charles spaniels, and bernese mountain dogs all suffer from very poor breed health as well.
> 
> All good poodle breeders complete genetic testing on parent dogs as well as eye evalutations, and orthopedic evaluations. It's not a black hole in any way. The PCA is very good about encouraging thorough health testing in this breed. In regard to genetic testing, there is really no point in having puppies tested if they are clear by parentage. All diseases that can be tested for are inherited from the parents. If the parent dogs test clear, the puppies will also be clear.
> 
> I can certainly think of reasons why it would be _interesting and useful_ to have orthopedic evaluations performed on all puppies. Orthopedic disease such as hip dysplasia is affected by genetics, environment, and hormones. Pet puppies that are spayed or neutered may develop hip dysplasia at different rates than intact parent dogs. Knowing the orthopedic health of these spayed and neutered puppies would be beneficial in advising future owners of possible increased risk of dysplasia due to spay/neuter. But I do think it's something that the breeder should pay for, and should probably also be negotiable.


So, I can look up stuff on OFA and find it unlike Collie breeders who don't use OFA? That's one of the reasons that made me not want a collie. I know some poodles breeders don't bother testing eyes ever year which bothers me a bit when I check OFA and find that the breeder I'm interested in. IS that a wrong thing to be bothered by? 

Do you know of any breeders that pay for that kind of health testing that still breed for show lines and sell to pet homes?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I have known a number of Gaylan's dogs, mostly working sport dogs in obedience and agility. They have been very smart and great workers, but also sadly as is common in the breed there are some significant health problems in their lines.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rambutan said:


> So, I can look up stuff on OFA and find it unlike Collie breeders who don't use OFA? That's one of the reasons that made me not want a collie. I know some poodles breeders don't bother testing eyes ever year which bothers me a bit when I check OFA and find that the breeder I'm interested in. IS that a wrong thing to be bothered by?
> 
> Do you know of any breeders that pay for that kind of health testing that still breed for show lines and sell to pet homes?


Yes, generally all good show breeders of poodles should satisfy your desires and keep updated records on OFA. I believe yearly eye exams are required for CHIC certification. You may simply be having trouble finding the good breeders. Full health testing shouldn't be a difficult requirement to meet. We have a running list of good breeders that health test on this site and there are also other sources to find them.

I'm also confused about Collie breeders not using it. I really thought they did use OFA. Are you talking about rough collies?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I just did a quick search for collie breeders near me at gooddog.com, filtering by “excellent,” and found loads.  Here’s a breakdown of their health criteria: Guide to Good Dog’s Health Testing Levels

That’s a good place to start a poodle search.

Here are some other good resources:






Find A Poodle - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org













🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I just did a quick search for collie breeders near me at gooddog.com, filtering by “excellent,” and found loads.  Here’s a breakdown of their health criteria: Guide to Good Dog’s Health Testing Levels
> 
> That’s a good place to start a poodle search.
> 
> ...


The Collie breeders that I was told to look at don't do OFA because that costs money and they don't want to do it because money by someone that breeds Collies. The same thing happens when I look up the collie breeders on gooddog. And one is USDA inspected which is code for puppy mill. Brookwood Collies - Collie breeder in Danville, PA, 17821 | Breeders.NET I'm not impressed by gooddog at like all if they're suggesting puppy mills to get a puppy from. Do you have any other ideas besides using OFA to look up chic numbers for collies?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rambutan said:


> The Collie breeders that I was told to look at don't do OFA because that costs money and they don't want to do it because money by someone that breeds Collies. The same thing happens when I look up the collie breeders on gooddog. And one is USDA inspected which is code for puppy mill. Brookwood Collies - Collie breeder in Danville, PA, 17821 | Breeders.NET I'm not impressed by gooddog at like all if they're suggesting puppy mills to get a puppy from. Do you have any other ideas besides using OFA to look up chic numbers for collies?


I would report a suspected puppy mill through their contact form, assuming they have one. Also be sure to filter by “excellent” while browsing the site. And of course, buyer beware. I would consider gooddog just a starting point.

Beyond that resource, I’m sorry. I’m not very familiar with the collie breed, much as I love them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rambutan said:


> Do you have any other ideas besides using OFA to look up chic numbers for collies?


CHIC numbers relate to OFA and the breed club health testing standards. The only other place you'll find CHIC numbers for a specific dog is from the breeder, directly or on their website. 

A CHIC number is essentially an identification number for each dog that has been given the recommended tests (not necessarily passed, fyi) and has been microchipped or tattooed for permanent identification. 

For example, the parent breed club for poodles is The Poodle Club of America
The Poodle Club of America -
They determine the recommended health testing based on health issues that the breed is subject to. This is not to say common or likely to happen, just predisposed. By testing the breeding dogs, these issues can show that the dogs are unaffected, bred away from if mildly affected but strong in other traits, or removed from breeding programs.
In addition to the OFA/CHIC testing which is both phenotype and genotype, independent labs such as Embark or PawPrints offer genetic panels for breeding dogs to do the same for those additional genotype tests. Why that breeder is asking the new families to test for things they could have is puzzling to me.

The Collie breed/s will have similar parent clubs: Collie Club of America homepage | CCA .
They would determine appropriate health issues to test breeding dogs for and the coordinate with the OFA database to publish those results which are openly available to the public.


*What is the CHIC Certification Program? *
* CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org) *

The OFA created the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) by partnering with participating parent clubs to research and maintain information on the health issues prevalent in specific breeds. We’ve established a recommended protocol for breed-specific health screenings. Dogs tested in accordance with that protocol are recognized with a CHIC number and certification.

At OFA, we recognize that the more information stored and accessible in these databases, the better it will be for every breed. And so we encourage all breeders to attain CHIC Certification if their breed participates in the CHIC program.

A dog achieves CHIC Certification if it has been screened for every disease recommended by the parent club for that breed _and _those results are publicly available in the database. See the *recommended screenings by breed*.

*CHIC Program Goals*

To work with parent clubs in the identification of health issues for which a central information system should be established.
To establish and maintain a central health information system in a manner that will support research into canine disease and provide health information to owners and breeders.
To establish scientifically valid diagnostic criteria for the acceptance of information into the database.
To base the availability of information on individually identified dogs at the consent of the owner.
*For everyone interested in canine health issues*, the OFA database, and specifically those dogs that have achieved CHIC Certification, are tools to monitor disease prevalence and measure progress.

*CHIC Program Policies*
*Breed-Specific*
Core to the CHIC philosophy is the realization that each breed has different health concerns. Not all diseases have known modes of inheritance, nor do all diseases have screening tests. Some screening tests are based on a phenotypic evaluation, others on genetic testing. With all these variables, a key element of the CHIC Program is to customize or tailor the requirements to the needs of each breed. These unique requirements are established through input from the parent club prior to the breed’s entry into the CHIC Program.

Breed-specific requirements typically consist of the inherited diseases that are of the greatest concern and for which some screening tests are available. Each parent club also drives specific screening protocols. As an example, one parent club may allow cardiac exams to be performed by a general practitioner. Another parent club may require the exam to be performed by a board-certified cardiologist. A club may also use the CHIC Program to maintain information on other health issues for anecdotal purposes. Later, as screening tests become available, the disease may be added to the breed-specific requirements.

*Permanent Identification*
Regardless of breed, each dog must be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of a microchip or tattoo.

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The Poodle Club of America has determined these to be the minimum tests to be done prior to breeding.

*By Variety 

Toy Poodle*

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

*Miniature Poodle *


*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

*Standard Poodle*


*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

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I know little about Collies so I'm just going to pick the "Collie" listing.

These are the tests recommended by Collie Club of America homepage | CCA


*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA-based rcd2-PRA test results from an approved lab; results registered with OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage ➚
*Multiple Drug Sensitivity*
DNA-based MDR1 test results from an approved lab; results registered with OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage ➚
*Dermatomyositis*
DNA based DMS test results from an approved lab. ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

The Collie Club's website is quite different from the Poodle Club's but I found some links that might be helpful to find breeders that are doing the recommended health testing.

how to find a reputable collie breeder.indd (collieclubofamerica.org)
Collie Club of America Contacts

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It's true that there is a cost to health testing. There's a bigger price to the breed as a whole if a breeder doesn't invest that "cost" in their dogs. That's part of the cost of breeding for quality rather than profit.

I would not choose a breeder for my family pet who didn't care enough to do the health testing recommended by the parent breed club.
More accurately, if I got a pup from a breeder who wasn't providing quality breeder perks, I'd consider that pup more of a rescue and very definitely not pay quality breeder prices.

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FYI, I'm generally not fond of a breeder that's USDA licensed but that alone is not an indication of being a puppy mill. It does mean that the breeder exceeds the pet limit for breeding dogs and is required to be licensed by the state.
For example, the breeder mentioned on gooddog is in Pennsylvania. This is the link to the state regulations:
Kennel Licensing (pa.gov)

The American Kennel Club described when to be licensed under the 2020 updated regulations.
Document: Not Sure if You Should be Licensed by USDA? Here’s Some Help! (akcgr.org)

Excerpt:
*Factors regarding which breeders must be licensed have not changed substantively. *
_*Most hobby breeders are not required to be licensed by USDA *under the Animal Welfare Act regulations. _
Generally, hobby breeders who sell dogs in face-to-face transactions are not subject to licensing.

_However, *if you maintain more than four breeding females and sell the offspring “sight unseen”, you would be subject to USDA licensing. *_

In 2013, AKC GR created a flowchart to help people understand whether they would be subject to USDA licensure. It may be viewed at https://images.akc.org/pdf/governmentrelations/documents/USDA_Handout.pdf.

This is a description of how the status of a breeder and the requirements may be different, depending on the state.
Dog Breeding License — Requirements, Process, Fees & Renewal (breedingbusiness.com)

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Just curious how you got to Poodles from Collies?


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

These are the CHIC requirements for Collies (Rough and Smooth). 

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA-based rcd2-PRA test results from an approved lab; results registered with OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage ➚
*Multiple Drug Sensitivity*
DNA-based MDR1 test results from an approved lab; results registered with OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage ➚
*Dermatomyositis*
DNA based DMS test results from an approved lab
The breed clubs are the ones who set CHIC requirements, not OFA. 

If you have more than four breeding females, and sell puppies "sight unseen", meaning that you don't physically meet each and every puppy buyer in person when they get their puppy (in other words, you ship a puppy to them without a physical meeting), then you might need to be licensed. https://images.akc.org/pdf/governmentrelations/documents/USDA_Handout.pdf

The breeder you linked has more breeding animals than I'm comfortable with, and some of them are less than stellar examples of the breed, but they say they health test.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is a brief history of the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

*OVER 50 YEARS OF DEDICATION TO THE ADVANCEMENT OF CANINE HEALTH*
_Founded and originally incorporated as a private not-for-profit foundation in 1966, the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) has passed its 50th birthday and is moving into the future.

Credit for the formation of the OFA is generally attributed to John M. Olin, well known inventor, industrialist, philanthropist, and conservationist. He was also an avid sportsman, hunter, and field trial participant. When hip dysplasia began to impact the performance of Olin’s dogs, he organized an initial meeting with representatives of the veterinary community, the Golden Retriever Club of America, and the German Shepherd Dog Club of America to discuss means of limiting the disease. This ultimately led to the formation and incorporation of the OFA in 1966. Its initial mission: To provide radiographic evaluation, data management, and genetic counseling for canine hip dysplasia.

While the OFA continues to focus on hip dysplasia, today’s OFA Mission, “To improve the health and well-being of companion animals through a reduction in the incidence of genetic disease,” reflects the organization’s expansion into other inherited diseases and other companion animals such as cats._

History - More than 50 Years of Research | The OFA

They do provide some services but function primarily as a public database for any breeder, any breed, to publish health testing results, with the testing being recommended by the breed parent club.

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I don't know if you'll find this helpful, but here's my short version of my criteria for selecting a breeder. This would apply to any breed, any breeder.

I think it's important for a potential dog owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._

Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 


My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

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This is where to find the recommended testing for the breeds listed
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

This is where to find disease statistics by breed
Breed Statistics | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I had to dig around to find some names of Collie breeders but here's some with testing results listed on OFA. I found a show listing so pulled names from that. I can't say that all Collie breeders, or all breeders of any breed participate in testing and publishing results on OFA, but some certainly do  

Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

All Collies listed on OFA
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Yes, generally all good show breeders of poodles should satisfy your desires and keep updated records on OFA. I believe yearly eye exams are required for CHIC certification. You may simply be having trouble finding the good breeders. Full health testing shouldn't be a difficult requirement to meet. We have a running list of good breeders that health test on this site and there are also other sources to find them.
> 
> I'm also confused about Collie breeders not using it. I really thought they did use OFA. Are you talking about rough collies?


Yes, I'm talking about rough collies which OFA isn't a thing for some of them and they're considered reputable by the community. Apparently, OFA costs money that they don't want to pay up for and it's not a thing when I asked a Collie breeder. 



Rose n Poos said:


> I had to dig around to find some names of Collie breeders but here's some with testing results listed on OFA. I found a show listing so pulled names from that. I can't say that all Collie breeders, or all breeders of any breed participate in testing and publishing results on OFA, but some certainly do
> 
> Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
> 
> ...


Looking more near Pennsylvania and Ohio area. I'm thinking Halcyon days Collies might be a good place to ask but who knows at this point since everyone wants a puppy. The waitlists are filled up and might as well be looking at 2024 for a puppy which is assuming that the world goes back to normal. 



TeamHellhound said:


> These are the CHIC requirements for Collies (Rough and Smooth).
> 
> *Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
> DNA-based rcd2-PRA test results from an approved lab; results registered with OFA. First Generation Offspring of tested dogs eligible for Clear By Parentage ➚
> ...


Yeah, not really interested with going with a USDA inspected breeder. Even I know that's code for puppy mill. Wouldn't bother me if it was like a working dog kennel like for hunting or sledding/whatever but a pet breed like collies makes me not interested. Anyway, they say they do but it's more of you gotta talk to me about it which makes me not interested. I'm lazy and rather look stuff up than waste my time in talking to people who don't health test fully.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Yes, OFA testing costs money. It costs money no matter what breed it's for. The extent of testing, and thus cost, varies by breed. If you want to talk expensive testing, Dobermans are the breed that come to mind, with annual cardiac testing including a 24 hour holter and echo. .


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Rambutan said:


> So, I can look up stuff on OFA and find it unlike Collie breeders who don't use OFA? That's one of the reasons that made me not want a collie. I know some poodles breeders don't bother testing eyes ever year which bothers me a bit when I check OFA and find that the breeder I'm interested in. IS that a wrong thing to be bothered by?
> 
> Do you know of any breeders that pay for that kind of health testing that still breed for show lines and sell to pet homes?


A reputable poodle breeder does all the appropriate tests for the variety of poodles that s/he breeds. And reputable poodle breeders will have puppies that they sell as pets since they only keep the very best for show. A puppy from a reputable breeder should cost $2500-$3000 because all that health testing for many generations is expensive!

A reputable breeder does his/her dead-level best to breed to the standard of the breed. They will register health testing results on OFA or Penn-Hip.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rambutan said:


> Yes, I'm talking about rough collies which OFA isn't a thing for some of them and they're considered reputable by the community. Apparently, OFA costs money that they don't want to pay up for and it's not a thing when I asked a Collie breeder.


Ok, I think I've finally sorted thru here. The testing recommended for Collies (smooth and rough) by the parent Breed Club is all DNA testing, no phenotype or physical exams, just DNA.

The DNA testing isn't required to be done by or thru OFA (remember that OFA is primarily a database) but may be done by an independent lab.
OFA will publish those results for a small, I mean small, fee, if the testing was done by an _approved_ lab.

Listing fee schedule (this may not be the correct fee schedule but gives an idea of cost to list)
OFA Fee Schedule | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Approved labs list
Laboratories | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

PawPrint is one of the approved labs.

Below is the testing panel from PawPrints for Rough Collies. Between the several panels listed, the Breed Club recommendations are met. It would be sufficient to have the testing done thru PawPrint and not published on OFA, but if the breeder doesn't choose to list the results publicly on the PawPrint site your only recourse is to get the results from the breeder and hope that you're being given the information for the correct breeding parents.
The additional step of publishing on OFA and getting CHIC certification is your best guarantee that the dog they're giving the results on is in fact that specific dog.

----------

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To get a CHIC number however would require posting thru OFA and proving permanent ID by microchip or tattooing.

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Rambutan said:


> USDA inspected breeder. Even I know that's code for puppy mill


USDA licensing is definitely _*not*_ a guarantee of a breeder being a puppy mill.
It means that the breeder has more breeding capable females in their care than is considered a typical pet home or hobby breeder.
The USDA limit is 4 breeding capable females, state limits vary. If the state limit doesn't override the USDA limit, that may mean a breeder has no more than 4 females producing puppies.

Now, if you're defining puppy mill only by breeding primarily for profit, rather than to improve the breed, then it get's harder to give them benefit of the doubt. The more dogs, the less personal attention.
For that matter, it doesn't even need to be a large number of dogs being bred to be breeding primarily for profit. Anyone who's breeding just because they can, without taking the steps to make sure they're not only providing the best for their own dog but also for every dog that might be produced in the future from that original breeding isn't investing in the future of the breed. Doing that without the health testing at a minimum is irresponsible to the breed. Before health testing was possible, responsible breeders were looking at the family histories of dogs before they were selected to be bred.

I still wouldn't want to support a higher volume breeder in general, but there are some that may be only a bit over whatever regulatory limit they're under, they may provide fabulous living conditions, personally working with all their dogs, excellent health care, proper health testing per breed club recommendations, may still be showing or competing with their dogs, but likely have additional staff to help. That all takes their "profit" way back down to not so much.

For you, it may be better to simply take any USDA licensed breeder off your list, as you said, so you don't have to research further.

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And I'm still very curious how you got to poodles from collies .

Maybe the better question is, what are you looking for in a dog?
What activities would you want to participate in with your dog?
What is your current lifestyle, active? not so much?
Do you have savings to cover health emergencies? (testing covers a limited range of potential issues for any breed and can't predict many due to complicated genetic causes. Accidents are another possibility.)
Does anyone in your family have allergies to dogs?
Are you able to spend around $100 a month to have a poodle groomed?
Are you able to bathe the dog about every two weeks?
Comb thru the coat to remove any tangles before matting kicks in daily or at least every other day?
Are you interested in a standard, miniature, or toy?
Would this be your first dog ever?
Will you have help raising the pup?

I will be frank here and say that a standard poodle particularly is not what I would call a starter dog, if that's your situation. They are well worth it, but can be truly challenging even for experienced dog owners.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

To round things out, here is the testing recommended by the official breed club for Golden Retrievers that should be published on OFA since it is all phenotype examinations, no DNA testing recommended.
GR's do have a high incidence of cancer, for example, but cancer isn't something that can be tested for because of it's complicated genetic presentation. This is true for cancers in any breed, as well as other DNA based issues.

Health & Research - Golden Retriever Club of America (grca.org)

*GOLDEN RETRIEVER*
AKC Sporting Group; CKC Sporting Group; UKC Gun Dog Group; TKC Gundog Group: RETRIEVER (GOLDEN)


OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements
The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. *The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.*

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation (At least 4 months of age)
*Elbow Dysplasia*
OFA Evaluation ➚
*Eye Examination (evaluations annually for the dog's lifetime)*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Cardiac Evaluation* (One of the following)
Congenital Cardiac Exam at 12 months or older, with exam by cardiologist ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam at 12 months or older, with exam by cardiologist ➚
Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

Yeah, the z


Rose n Poos said:


> Ok, I think I've finally sorted thru here. The testing recommended for Collies (smooth and rough) by the parent Breed Club is all DNA testing, no phenotype or physical exams, just DNA.
> 
> The DNA testing isn't required to be done by or thru OFA (remember that OFA is primarily a database) but may be done by an independent lab.
> OFA will publish those results for a small, I mean small, fee, if the testing was done by an _approved_ lab.
> ...


Yeah, the small fee is what some collie breeders aren't willing to pay all to post that information on OFA. It's too much money for them according to that one breeder I talked too that does post results to OFA. They weren't happy about it either when they explained it. 

I heard someone talking about smooth collies that they lived with and they sound like a easy going dog from what it sounds like. And I did research because a new breed might be a good idea to look into because I don't want a golden. I love goldens but wanted something else for once. 

Poodles are off the list from what it sounds like. 

I wanted a dog breed with less coat maintenance which smooth collies are generally easier to brush compared to poodles. I'm looking for a pet that I can teach tricks too that's more biddable than a cat and a dog that's easy to live with as a pet. Not killing my cats is a plus since modified prey drive which herding is sounds easier to deal with than a dog that's was bred for hunting like the poodle.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Not to split hairs, but poodles were bred for retrieving, not hunting. 😉 Have you tried any breed quizzes to see what they suggest?


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## Rambutan (Feb 15, 2021)

That's still a form of prey drive, right? I know that predatory drift can occur with any dog but certain breeds have prey drive that's been bred away for a lower to very little or a modified version of it aka the herding breeds.

Collies and poodles were suggested but poodles are off the list. Most of those breed quizzes kept suggesting hounds or terriers which are a bad idea for cats. And I'm tried looking into gundog group for alternatives to goldens. Didn't see any that I liked besides Boykin and some other spaniels but they weren't being bred as pets or were stubborn from what I researched.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rambutan said:


> That's still a form of prey drive, right? I know that predatory drift can occur with any dog but certain breeds have prey drive that's been bred away for a lower to very little or a modified version of it aka the herding breeds.
> 
> Collies and poodles were suggested but poodles are off the list. Most of those breed quizzes kept suggesting hounds or terriers which are a bad idea for cats. And I'm tried looking into gundog group for alternatives to goldens. Didn't see any that I liked besides Boykin and some other spaniels but they weren't being bred as pets or were stubborn from what I researched.


Boykins will have an INTENSE prey drive. I think a collie isn't a bad choice from what I've heard of them. I don't think the lack of OFA would be a problem for me if they can show you proof of testing. What about a show line lab? They seem to fit what you are looking for.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Starla said:


> Not to split hairs, but poodles were bred for retrieving, not hunting. 😉 Have you tried any breed quizzes to see what they suggest?


Not exactly, the poodle predates hunting with guns so retrievers werent as needed. They were said to herd ducks into traps.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Touché! I was more making the point that it’s less like a sight hound, bred to take down the target, and more like a retriever, used for decades to bring the target back to the owner. Much like a golden retriever… which I don’t think people worry about with their cat typically.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Starla said:


> Touché! I was more making the point that it’s less like a sight hound, bred to take down the target, and more like a retriever, used for decades to bring the target back to the owner. Much like a golden retriever… which I don’t think people worry about with their cat typically.


I suspect that the poodle might be somewhere in the middle. Tends to have more drive than the retrievers but not as intense as the hounds. 

Naturally its been hundreds of years since the poodle was wading in the cold ponds of Germany and France. Its been a long time since Europeans changed how they get duck meat. But what I find fascinating about the history of the poodle is that even when it becomes 'unemployed' it always finds a new job. Be it as truffle finders, army dogs, circus performers or service dogs. So to say they are or were bred to hunt is also a bit of a oversimplification of their past. 

Who knows perhaps having a bit of prey drive but not too much helped them become so versatile.


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