# Isn't this "in-breeding"?



## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Hi. I was considering contacting a breeder who has a litter, but when I reviewed the pedigrees on their website I saw that the dam's mother is the same dog as the sire's grandmother. Isn't this inbreeding? I'm new to evaluating pedigrees, so wadda I know...but this doesn't seem right. Thoughts?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Without seeing all of the pedigree information I would say it is some form of line breeding. Although fewer breeders follow this strategy anymore it still is done. You want to look at the coefficient of inbreeding (COI), for standards % Wycliffe also can be important. Even better than those measures of genetic diversity though is DLA typing. My Javelin is from a line breeding and has Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth in his pedigree several times as a result.


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanks for the info lily CD. I will have to ask the breeder about COI, etc. since it's not displayed anywhere. Not sure if I will be contacting her though. Mating a daughter with a grandson doesn't sit right.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

This is mating a bitch to her nephew. They are certainly closely related, but this level of inbreeding is not at all unusual. I have seen a lot closer. As Lily said, I would look to see what other inbreeding there might be in the pedigree. If you have the registered names of the parents you can look them up on the following web sites:
The Original Poodle Pedigree Database
www.ofa.org
Poodle Health Registry Database

The first one gives you lots of different ways of looking at the pedigree.

The fact that the breeder provides pedigree information on the web site is a good sign. Some of the breeders that do a lot of inbreeding (more than what you have described) try to keep that information hidden.

I would call the breeder and express your concern. Give her an opportunity to explain why she chose to breed these two dogs. Ask about the health of her lines. Is the dam's mother/sire's grandmother heavily inbred?


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanks peppersb. Other than health, can inbreeding negatively affect temperament?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Without seeing all of the pedigree information I would say it is some form of line breeding. Although fewer breeders follow this strategy anymore it still is done. You want to look at the coefficient of inbreeding (COI), for standards % Wycliffe also can be important. Even better than those measures of genetic diversity though is DLA typing. My Javelin is from a line breeding and has Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth in his pedigree several times as a result.


Lily I know he is a very common stud but Javvy and Luna share more than just their name connection! She also has Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth in her pedigree more than once. So they are cousins of some sort. This sire must have been an amazing dog!

And Sis, I agree with what has been said, I would talk to the breeder. Virtually all spoos in North America were heavily inbred and line bred with the Wycliffe dogs decades ago. Now most breeders are much more careful about that sort of thing. I would not feel comfortable getting anything more closely bred than what you describe but I don't think it is too bad, and wouldn't be afraid to find out more from the breeder.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

True confessions: My boy Sam was bred last winter to his niece Jackie. So the same dog (Sting) was Sam's father and Jackie's grandfather. That's exactly the same as the situation you describe. However, Sam is not inbred, and Jackie (the dam) is not inbred. Here are the COIs as calculated by poodledata.org:

Sam
10-generation COI	1.73%
12-generation COI	3.52%

Jackie
10-generation COI	2.55%
12-generation COI	4.84%

The COIs for the litter are certainly higher because of the uncle-niece breeding. But they are still not outrageous because there is not much in the way of other inbreeding in this pedigree:

Jackie x Sam litter
10-generation COI	8.48%
12-generation COI	10.08%

You can see the test breeding for this litter here:
Pedigree: J x S

All thing being equal, the breeder (Michelle) would have chosen a sire who was not as related to her bitch. But all things never are equal. And Michelle loves loves loves loves loves Sam. She knows him well (she is his co-owner, groomer and handler), and she loves his temperament, his structure, his chest, his coat, his movement. I mean she adores him. She did consider other studs. But in the end, she thought that Sam was her best choice. 

There were 8 puppies in the litter and they all have fabulous temperaments, as do their parents. I've had puppy play dates with some of the puppies, and the owners are all delighted with them. Michelle is very pleased with this litter. In early 2018, she will be breeding Sam to a full sister of Jackie's. I would not hesitate to get one of these puppies. But I would hesitate to buy from a breeder that is doing a whole lot of inbreeding and getting COIs that are in the range of 20 or 30 or more. So you are wise to ask questions and look at the pedigrees.


P.S. Mikimoto is also in the Jackie x Sam pedigree. Twice -- once on Sam's side and once on Jackie's side, both 5 generations back.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Peppersb you are so knowledgable about all of this, I love learning from you. Having been through a very similar situation, your advise is so relevant. Thank you for sharing! And I'm starting to think the Mikimoto dog is in all the lines  I googled him, he is very handsome.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Peppersb you are so knowledgable about all of this, I love learning from you. Having been through a very similar situation, your advise is so relevant. Thank you for sharing! And I'm starting to think the Mikimoto dog is in all the lines  I googled him, he is very handsome.


Yep, Frosty's got him too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, Miki's little swimmers got around big time didn't they? But he had an astounding show career and lots and lots of people recognized his special attributes and sought him out as a sire.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

COI can be a useful tool, but VGL provides more insight into specific pairings, because unlike COI, VGL results can vary greatly between littermates. For Phoebe's second litter, I looked at two full siblings (siblings to each other, not PHoebe) and a few other dogs. (All the boys were gorgeous, health-tested, and otherwise compatible.) One of the two brothers was a much better match than the other, and it was a lovely litter. Our keeper girl's VGL values are much better than her dam's (more heterozygous and more infrequent alleles). This was a breeding that looked rather close on paper (same grandsire). 

Mikimoto is from a line of VERY prominent white dogs going back to Whisperwind on a Carousel, who went BIS at Westminster, and Treson (That's My Boy). It's hard to find a white line that doesn't have Treson behind multiple times.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Verve said:


> COI can be a useful tool, but VGL provides more insight into specific pairings, because unlike COI, VGL results can vary greatly between littermates. For Phoebe's second litter, I looked at two full siblings (siblings to each other, not PHoebe) and a few other dogs. (All the boys were gorgeous, health-tested, and otherwise compatible.) One of the two brothers was a much better match than the other, and it was a lovely litter. Our keeper girl's VGL values are much better than her dam's (more heterozygous and more infrequent alleles). This was a breeding that looked rather close on paper (same grandsire).


I agree that VGL is a wonderful tool for breeders. I had Sam tested and he is listed at betterbred.com. But while COI is not as precise as VGL, COI is still a useful indicator, and it is one that may be easier for a puppy buyer to understand and research. I love the way you can go to poodledata.org and look up a poodle and see the pedigree and the COI.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> I agree that VGL is a wonderful tool for breeders. I had Sam tested and he is listed at betterbred.com. But while COI is not as precise as VGL, COI is still a useful indicator, and it is one that may be easier for a puppy buyer to understand and research. I love the way you can go to poodledata.org and look up a poodle and see the pedigree and the COI.


I sort of agree about it being easier for a puppy buyer to understand...except...it can sometimes be completely meaningless, and I feel that puppy buyers should be given meaningful information! I mean what if a puppy buyer turned away a puppy from a litter because of a high COI, but the litter was actually a genetic outcross? And then selected a pup from a litter with a low COI, but that was actually a very tight genetic linebreeding? It's not just a matter of it not being as precise, it can be completely off. And it does take testing more than just an individual dog to really see that.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I sort of agree about it being easier for a puppy buyer to understand...except...it can sometimes be completely meaningless, and I feel that puppy buyers should be given meaningful information! I mean what if a puppy buyer turned away a puppy from a litter because of a high COI, but the litter was actually a genetic outcross? And then selected a pup from a litter with a low COI, but that was actually a very tight genetic linebreeding? It's not just a matter of it not being as precise, it can be completely off. And it does take testing more than just an individual dog to really see that.


I don't think it is quite that meaningless. And I do think that it is extremely difficult for a breeder to give meaningful and verifiable information about VGL testing. A high COI is certainly a red flag that a puppy buyer should investigate. Also, if pedigrees are easily available, a puppy buyer can see the difference between a pedigree that has lots of different individual dogs in it, and one where there are lots of repeats of the same dog. As I mentioned before, I have seen some breeders who do a lot of line breeding who try to keep registered names of the breeding dogs hidden. When I was looking for Cammie, I actually had a breeder tell me that she would give me registered names, but only after I put a deposit down! I later discovered that she was breeding extremely close relatives, and that at least one of her breeding dogs had some serious health issues.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Sis, line breeding and in breeding do not affect temperament unless the dogs involved do not have good temperament. I have only known one standard poodle who had a temperament fault - he was very aggressive with small dogs.


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Thanks everyone for sharing your situations/stories. I must admit I will have to digest the technical advice for a bit, but I love to dig in and learn, so I will do it. 
Having said that, are there such things as puppy brokers or advisors who know this stuff and can assist the puppy buyer (aka ME)? Or perhaps a good book or resource? 
I had my other dogs (terriers) for 14 years each so know this is a long term deal. But I had no concerns of inbreeding with them.


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Johanna said:


> Sis, line breeding and in breeding do not affect temperament unless the dogs involved do not have good temperament. I have only known one standard poodle who had a temperament fault - he was very aggressive with small dogs.


Thanks, that's a relief! So if the mom and dad have good temperaments, I'm assuming I'll be OK ... and I do want to visit them beforehand, so that'll make me feel confident about the pup's temperament.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> I don't think it is quite that meaningless. And I do think that it is extremely difficult for a breeder to give meaningful and verifiable information about VGL testing. A high COI is certainly a red flag that a puppy buyer should investigate. Also, if pedigrees are easily available, a puppy buyer can see the difference between a pedigree that has lots of different individual dogs in it, and one where there are lots of repeats of the same dog. As I mentioned before, I have seen some breeders who do a lot of line breeding who try to keep registered names of the breeding dogs hidden. When I was looking for Cammie, I actually had a breeder tell me that she would give me registered names, but only after I put a deposit down! I later discovered that she was breeding extremely close relatives, and that at least one of her breeding dogs had some serious health issues.


How is it difficult for a breeder to give meaningful and verifiable information about VGL testing? 

Of course a breeder not willing to give registered names before putting down a deposit is a very massive red flag!!!!!


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Sis said:


> Thanks everyone for sharing your situations/stories. I must admit I will have to digest the technical advice for a bit, but I love to dig in and learn, so I will do it.
> Having said that, are there such things as puppy brokers or advisors who know this stuff and can assist the puppy buyer (aka ME)? Or perhaps a good book or resource?
> I had my other dogs (terriers) for 14 years each so know this is a long term deal. But I had no concerns of inbreeding with them.


Where are you located? What are you generally looking for in terms of temperament? What are your plans for the dog?


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

Verve said:


> Where are you located? What are you generally looking for in terms of temperament? What are your plans for the dog?


I'm in western PA, and am looking for a companion dog who I can eventually do therapy work with. I'd love a social, stable, biddable and intelligent female who's also of course very loving and gentle. Playful and tuned into people.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Sam's next litter will be available in the spring in the Philadelphia area if all goes well. But that's a long wait and a long drive. If you are interested, send me a PM or contact [email protected]. I could give you references from people who bought pups from the 2017 litter.

Another option is Rosebud in Coalport PA. Their Maxine is a littermate of my Cammie. I have a friend who lives in the Pittsburgh area who has a 2 year old poodle from Rosebud and she is delighted with her dog and happy with her Rosebud experience. I could put you in touch with her if you'd like to talk and/or meet her and her dog. 

Another option is FarleysD. They are in Pittsburgh. I don't know them personally, but they certainly have a good reputation.

Verve and others may have other suggestions.

It is really a good idea to visit breeders before making a decision. Meet the breeding dogs and see where they live, and meet the breeder. You want the momma of your puppy to be happy, confident and well-cared for. In addition to passing on her genetics, a happy confident momma passes a sense of security on to her puppies as she cares for them. Look for a breeder who absolutely adores each of her/his breeding dogs and who has the time to provide the love and support that raising a litter requires.

Best of luck to you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Those are great suggestions from peppersb, but also let us know how far you are willing to travel and some of us may have other suggestions for you as well.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I just went on to Rosebud's Facebook page and saw this:
~~~~~~~~~Announcement ~~~~~~~~
We here at Rosebud Standard Poodles would like to let you know , we have some exciting litters planned for the end of 2017 & the beginning of 2018 !
If you are looking for a pet or a show prospect , I am sure we can help you and your family out .
We do have 3 males available for the end of November. ( Mom is breathtaking Rita!) photos to come this week !!!
We also have a litter available of black girls and boys for the end of December! ( Maxine is the mom , this is her last litter !) 
We are accepting deposit on both of the litters now .

Maxine's litter is an opportunity that I would be VERY excited about. If it is Maxine x Desmond (I am assuming that Desmond is the sire), the puppies would be full siblings of the poodle that belongs to my friend in Pittsburgh. She is more than delighted with her boy. She says he has a great temperament and she's had a lot of fun doing some nose work with him. She was initially attracted to Rosebud because Maxine is Cammie's littermate, and my friend LOVES Cammie. Maxine lives with the breeder's mother, and from what I hear, she is a much loved pet and very well supported in her home which is where she has her babies. The breeder is Linda Shaffer, and her mother and Maxine live near her (right next door, I think). So this sounds like an excellent opportunity. Of course I am definitely biased since Maxine is a Cammie sister! But I think you can expect a lovely stable calm biddable temperament.


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

peppersb said:


> Sam's next litter will be available in the spring in the Philadelphia area if all goes well. But that's a long wait and a long drive. If you are interested, send me a PM or contact [email protected]. I could give you references from people who bought pups from the 2017 litter.
> 
> Another option is Rosebud in Coalport PA. Their Maxine is a littermate of my Cammie. I have a friend who lives in the Pittsburgh area who has a 2 year old poodle from Rosebud and she is delighted with her dog and happy with her Rosebud experience. I could put you in touch with her if you'd like to talk and/or meet her and her dog.
> 
> ...


Hi. I looked up Rosebud and they look promising, and they're just a 2 hour drive ... am definitely interested. Will send you a pm. Thanks!


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

I am willing to travel throughout PA, OH, WV, western/central NY and Toronto area, and Southern MI. Will gladly take recommendations!


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

peppersb said:


> I just went on to Rosebud's Facebook page and saw this:
> ~~~~~~~~~Announcement ~~~~~~~~
> We here at Rosebud Standard Poodles would like to let you know , we have some exciting litters planned for the end of 2017 & the beginning of 2018 !
> If you are looking for a pet or a show prospect , I am sure we can help you and your family out .
> ...


Wonderful! Am sending a pm.


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## Sis (Nov 7, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Those are great suggestions from peppersb, but also let us know how far you are willing to travel and some of us may have other suggestions for you as well.



I'm willing to travel throughout PA, OH, WV, western/central NY and Toronto area, and Southern MI. Will gladly take recommendations!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Arreau (member here) is in the Toronto area. If you were willing to extend your journey to Connecticut then add Madela (my Javelin's breeder) and Majessa.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

You've gotten suggestions for the cream of the crop


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

I'm late but if interested I know of a male and female puppy in Ohio. The co-owner of the female was my Sheamus' co-owner and he lived with her. Both puppies are black. The bitch is a champion from ByRequest. I've met her and she's lovely. 

Feel free to PM me if interested in details.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Ultimately, you will want to like the dogs in the pedigree and trust your breeder. Breeders often line breed, it is the only way to set type. And, gasp, diversity can still exist, does in fact, even in line breedings.

Though the "COI" was heavily promoted here as the next best thing, COI is really a tool for BREEDERS and frankly confusing for potential pet owners (10, 12 and 15 generations/which site to use to calculate/etc). As a tool for breeders, it's not all that much of one anymore, with the availability of the VGL swab and the detailed information offered. Add in the website, BetterBred and Breeders now have access to an entire new world of scientific information about potential pairings. The days of heavy emphasis on COI calculation quickly came and went.

Some nice breeders have been suggested here, and you can always reach out to PCA Breeder Referral.

Best Wishes,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## KlingValley (Jan 19, 2018)

I know this is an older post, but CH. Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth is my black males Great Great Grandpa. He was/is a gorgeous white Standard. If you have ever seen the Poodle Clipping grooming boo, he is pictured in the book. Definitely a great looking stud in my opinion. 




chinchillafuzzy said:


> Lily I know he is a very common stud but Javvy and Luna share more than just their name connection! She also has Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth in her pedigree more than once. So they are cousins of some sort. This sire must have been an amazing dog!
> 
> And Sis, I agree with what has been said, I would talk to the breeder. Virtually all spoos in North America were heavily inbred and line bred with the Wycliffe dogs decades ago. Now most breeders are much more careful about that sort of thing. I would not feel comfortable getting anything more closely bred than what you describe but I don't think it is too bad, and wouldn't be afraid to find out more from the breeder.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

KlingValley said:


> I know this is an older post, but CH. Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth is my black males Great Great Grandpa. He was/is a gorgeous white Standard. If you have ever seen the Poodle Clipping grooming boo, he is pictured in the book. Definitely a great looking stud in my opinion.


Then we are extended family since Miki is in my boy Javelin's pedigree too.


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