# Dealing With Cancer?



## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

I haven't been here in a while so its kind of weird to come back here after a year or so (or maybe it hasn't been that long) with news that Nova has trichoepithelioma cancer. 

She had a weird wad of puss in her right shoulder two months ago and we took her in and they did a test and there was nothing wrong with her shoulder other than the very strange wad of puss. The vet drained it, put a drainage tube in there to let it completely drain for a couple of days, and then took it out. Her shoulder muscle was still kind of swollen but we waited a little while bc he said it would take some time to go down but after almost a month, it never went down. 

We took her back to the vet (different vet doctor, same clinic) and he wanted to do a muscle biopsy, x ray, and tissue sample. Well, the muscle biopsy came back today and it is trichoepithelioma cancer. 

It's a rare cancer of the hair follicle apparently. I've researched it online after the vet told me and explained it (very nicely too and he spelled out the name without even me having to ask). It seems like not a lot of dogs get this so there's not much treatment options other than removing it with an invasive surgery. He said they'll have to go in very deep to make sure everything is taken out because he compared this type of cancer to a jellyfish; you see the jellyfish floating from above and it looks small but below the surface there are very long tentacles and apparently that's how the cancer operates. He also said that it'll take very long so the surgical costs is going to be high and for whatever reason we choose not to do the surgery, he said he'll understand. 

I have a little bit of time before our family makes the decision whether or not we want to go forth with the procedure but I know for sure that if we can afford it, we want the procedure done. 

But I've looked online and the one case study I was able to find was from three years ago and they did the surgery on the dog (it was a beagle) and the cancer had come back in different areas and they treated that area with RT (Radiation therapy) but the dog ended up dying. 

And that's what I'm afraid of because we're in a similar situation as the beagle since its not just her shoulder that's the problem. We had found a small little tumor (the size of the finger pad on your pinky) on her head and another one in her back leg and i wouldn't be surprised if those were also malignant like the one deep inside her tumor. 

The reason why I'm posting this is because I'm just kind of lost at what to do. It's really invasive surgery and if she's going to suffer for along time, would it be better for her to just not get the surgery and live as long as she can? (He told me this is a slow growing tumor but he wants to get rid of it as fast as he can, especially the one on her head while it is small; the shoulder is a different story bc when he was doing the muscle biopsy, her muscles had formed layers and layers over the cancerous area and so he ended up tearing some muscles). I"m leaning towards the surgery but I know it'll be a heavy blow to my parents financial situation since business isn't all that great (But I know they would want to try somehow). 

Have any of you lovely poodle owners ever have to deal with this type of situation (cancer or any sort of sickness in relation to your dog and you had to make a big decision)? I'd just would like to get a census of what everyone did (yes I know each situation is different but I feel like hearing different experiences would help make a decision, personally) and also if anyone knows anything about this cancer please let me know or anything about cancer treatments in general. I'm also going to call the vet back to know what he feels is best given her current situation 

I've looked online but there's not much information other than what it is and how usually its benign (not for us unfortunately). I even looked at portions of vet school textbooks (and they usually had a tiny paragraph about it).


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Well oi here its goes

I just lost my dear sweet toy poodle Cappi to a fast growing tumor, at first my vets we at a loss originally for what was going on with my girl, she sudden started peeing more, drinking more and just went from there, she wasn't eating, then she was eating but had diarrhea. It took awhile because her bloods didn't present anything unusual for an elderly dog. It took an ultrasound to reveal a baseball sided tumor inside her chest that enveloped her right kidney. She was 13 1/2 yrs.

In the end I opted to to leave her alone, I had her for a few more weeks before I decided it was best to let her go because she had stopped eating all together and the spark that was her was gone.

I also lost Cappi's mother Fannie to malignant mammary cancer, from the discovery of the golf ball size tumor, it grew and metastasized, from the the biopsy and diagnosis, which I also opted to leave her be, she lived another 5 months before she began to have difficulty walking and I knew it was time to say goodbye. Fannie was 12 years old.

People will tell you a lot of things but in the end you know your dog and you have to weigh what is the very best thing you can do for them.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have put many poodles down over the past 55 years, and I always felt if they could live a normal life as they would want to then I would do whatever was necessary. However, if not I left them go, as that is what I always wanted for myself. Mine have been between 15 and 19 when the crossed the bridge. My last one was only 12, but had limes decease, autherizous (cannot spell) in one leg and many times cried. Then one of my DAMN neighbors or there guest kicked the dog (she was 9 pounds) and dislocated her good shoulder. the vet said he could not assure me the sling would work and if not surgery. I knew she could not put the weight on her bad leg, and I made the dicession to let her go. It was really hard, but I know I did the right thing,


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

glorybeecosta said:


> I have put many poodles down over the past 55 years, and I always felt if they could live a normal life as they would want to then I would do whatever was necessary. However, if not I left them go, as that is what I always wanted for myself. Mine have been between 15 and 19 when the crossed the bridge. My last one was only 12, but had limes decease, autherizous (cannot spell) in one leg and many times cried. Then one of my DAMN neighbors or there guest kicked the dog (she was 9 pounds) and dislocated her good shoulder. the vet said he could not assure me the sling would work and if not surgery. I knew she could not put the weight on her bad leg, and I made the dicession to let her go. It was really hard, but I know I did the right thing,





twyla said:


> Well oi here its goes
> 
> I just lost my dear sweet toy poodle Cappi to a fast growing tumor, at first my vets we at a loss originally for what was going on with my girl, she sudden started peeing more, drinking more and just went from there, she wasn't eating, then she was eating but had diarrhea. It took awhile because her bloods didn't present anything unusual for an elderly dog. It took an ultrasound to reveal a baseball sided tumor inside her chest that enveloped her right kidney. She was 13 1/2 yrs.
> 
> ...


i think the reason why I'm so hesitant is because she's only six years old now or will be six in July. 

She was in a lot of pain after the muscle biopsy and cried a lot and so its just...idk. Its my first time dealing with something like this so its hard for me to make a decision and wondering if I'm making the right one. 

If there were other effective ways to treat this cancer I'd probably try it but literally every source that talks about this cancer says the most effective to date is the surgery which is incredibly invasive and will leave a huge scar. But the surgery seems moot when it seems highly likely that this will just keep coming back and coming back (because she's had a tumor on her leg before but that was benign back then and now this came back on the same side but on her shoulder)

thank you both for sharing your experiences, I really appreciate it since I know its not easy


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I'd say get a second opinion maybe from a veterinary oncologist, don't know that is possible. 

Sometimes there isn't a lot you can do except love them, that is also why making these kinds of decisions are so hard.


You and your girl are in my thoughts


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Pinkteaji, I'm so sorry for your lovely Nova's diagnosis. It's very hard--almost impossible--to hear shocking news and then try to figure out what is the right path to take. The right path is whatever you choose.

If my tpoo were in this situation, I would worry about the long surgery and might have some doubts about the value to him given the recovery experience you have just undergone. Assumedly they would send you home with tons of intense painkillers, but that would definitely be a question to discuss with the vet in advance. Staying ahead of pain aids healing. If a vet blew me off on that point, I'd be gone. Not saying yours did, just it's something to include in the discussion.

Getting the cancer out would make me feel better, but I'd have to balance the cost to my dog and frankly finances would also factor in. Surgery might possibly not give us that much more time left together. On the other hand, it might buy him another year or two-it's so hard to know and of course we don't have crystal balls.

You know your sweet Nova best; judge based on how you believe she would handle the surgery and followup. And know that however you decide to go with this, you can't take a wrong turn because of your love for her. Relative youth and money can't solve everything. I wonder since it's rare if it might be worth ringing up your closest veterinary college to chat with them.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Firstly, I am so sorry to hear about this - you must be in a right state over it, so hugs :hug:

This is going to sound a bit out there, but... my mother was diagnosed with cancer and her choice was not to have chemo/radiotherapy/surgery as she was an ex-nurse and knew what the after effects were and also knew that any treatment was going to be palliative and would not cure her. Instead, she chose to spend the last couple of months while she was active doing things she'd always wanted to do. She and I had a mum/daughter short holiday together, talking etc. She mended bridges with other people, including my sister. She went out and about as much as she could until she couldn't anymore. At that point, when she was bed-bound, she gave in gracefully and went very quickly - way too quickly from my point of view as I wasn't ready to let her go at all. BUT, she died with me and my sister holding her hands, having seen all the family, loved and cared for and had really enjoyed her last few months.

Anyway, my point is - if you know surgery is going to give pain and not actually cure the problem, I'd go with pain killers and heaps of love and pleasure and wonderful memories.

We've done this with cats that have had cancer/inoperable problems and can honestly say we have never regretted our decisions, albeit regretting that we had shorter times with them - as I did with my mum.

Big decision, but I'm one of these that always says "if my pets could speak, what would they want?" I'd guess they'd say "no pain please".

Thinking of you.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

You have said that there are two sites of this cancer. This to me would mean at least one metastasis. The primary tumor might not have been yet found. It is my opinion that though the invasive treatment may well give some time and a short span of active life, in the end there will be more to come. Have another opinion and make the difficult decision when you have to.
Eric.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I am so sorry that you received such shocking news. Last year we were in a similar situation with our nearly 14 year old Scottie. Because he had lived a full, long life and the treatment protocol was so horrific: amputation, chemo and radiation for an outcome of only a few months, we let him go. Since Nova is much younger, I would want to know more about outcomes. How impaired will she be with this invasive surgery? Duration of recovery, prognosis if you do nothing, cost, reoccurence, quality of life and many other questions would have to be addressed before I would schedule surgery. Since this is a rare cancer, I would want an opinion from an oncologist, and better yet, one affiliated with a veterinary school. My heart goes out to you and Nova.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am so very sorry for this tragic news. I am so inline with Manxcat's take on this. It's so hard to know what to do sometimes. But dogs don't think or know about future. They're in the now. It's different for us. So at least they're not tortured by that feeling of wondering what's to become of them. I would want my dog to enjoy the remaining time and not go through anything painful and use up his time recovering unless there were a really good prognosis. But of course, ultimately you will know in your heart what is best. 

This is something worth reading. I knew a gal on another dog forum who used it for a lump on her dog's head. I don't know that it was malignant. It might have been a fatty tumor but it disappeared within a couple weeks I think. She showed before and after pictures. Anyhow, when there's nothing to do, alternatives are worth looking at. I wish you the best. I'm really sorry. (((hugs)))

The History of Essiac and Rene M. Caisse, Canada's Nurse

Welcome to The Original Essiac Company -Essiac, Essiac tea, Rene Caisse, herbal remedy, Natural Medicine


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

My son just had to help his Yellow Lab across the bridge last Thursday........it was cancer also. He was devastated but Bailey was in so much pain. Bailey had cancerous tumors(3) removed two years ago but they came back in several different places, and due to his age(13) and other age related ailments it was decided to let him be. When it seemed the pain killers were not effective anymore, and he had to be helped to just get up, and wincing in pain, my son realized it was selfish to not let him go across the bridge. I remember when the first surgery was done, my son & his wife wiped out their vacation fund and tax return to be able to afford it.........he said he would have done it again if he knew Bailey had more than just months left.....................
I'm sorry you have such a terrible decision to make, but only you really know what is best.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate you all sharing your experiences or your friends' experiences. Its helping me sort of see different outcomes and choices and I'm taking it in  

*Also to explain Nova's situation as precisely as I can:* 
She had this one small tumor on her right leg couple of months ago, maybe one year now. We left it and it started growing and then bleeding so we went to the vet to get a biopsy and they said it was benign. Since it was bleeding, we decided to just get it removed. Now fast forward a year later to two months ago, we noticed she was walking funny and in pain. We took her to the vet who found a giant wad of puss on her shoulder (the same leg the tumor was a year ago). They drained it but her shoulder muscles were still inflamed and the vet told us it should go down soon. Fast forward a month later (Right now), it never went down. We went back to the vet and they did a muscle biopsy as well as basically did a surgery where he cut through the muscles to see what the "Muscles were protecting" because it appeared that the muscles had formed layers and layers over something. In doing so, he tore some muscles in there and he said it was inevitable because whatever it was down there was down there VERY deeply. 

Then of course after the biopsy came, we heard it was trichoepithelioma cancer. 

The vet is aware of the tumor that is on her head (its a small one, size of a swollen penny) and another on her back leg. I think, from feeling her body today, there is another one coming in on her chest. 

The one thing that is bugging me is that the vet is really pushing us to make an appointment for surgery (like this upcoming Monday). He said he'll give us a referral for an oncologist at the UGA vet school but he still wants us to make an appointment for surgery soon like this Monday or next Monday. Its kind of annoying because I know with cancer time is everything but he told me this was slow growing and he's pushing us way too hard to make a decision NOW. Also, I want to at least take some time in figuring out what is the best way for Nova. 

He said he'd give us a referral to an oncologist at UGA Vet school (I live on the campus so its fairly close) but its 80 dollars. I mean I can afford 80 dollars but I didn't know giving referrals actually costed money. Did anyone else who ever had an experience like this had to pay a referral fee? 

A lot of my friends want me to do the surgery and I want to do it too but based on what I've read (and I think her cancer spread as well based on the multiple tumors she has now + the case study I read with the dog with the same cancer) I'm wondering if the surgery route is going to be effective at all? But I'm not an oncologist so its best to get a professional's point of view. I'm going to try what I can of course and consider all possibilities and treatment options. 

After the muscle biopsy was when I realized she doesn't take pain very well. She was whining and crying and I've never seen her like this before and it just broke my heart because I was giving her pain meds and it had been two hours but they weren't kicking in or weren't numbing it enough and...it was hard...and this was just a muscle biopsy too >_> She kept coming towards me and whining and crying in pain and it just felt like she wanted me to do something about the pain but I couldn't do anything except give her meds

We'll be telling my parents about Nova's situation tomorrow since they support the dogs financially and we will also definitely see an oncologist and get their opinion on Nova and the surgery route as well as the possible effects after the surgery. Thank you for also posting questions I should ask because I'm kind of in this dumbfounded state right now since this is incredibly shocking to me + I'm dealing with a lot of personal stuff (depression and anxiety disorder is not a great mix) in my life and I'm trying to be on top of Nova's condition and anything pertaining to it as much as I can but it seems things escape me.

I'll keep you guys updated
Seriously, thank you so much :Cry:


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I am sorry that you have to go through this with your sweet girl, something you could try is warm/hot compresses to help alleviate some of her discomfort. Even a heating pad might help.

I find the referral fee a little weird, but I have only be referred to ophthalmologists, so not at all sure on that one. If it were my poodle I still would get that second opinion before I proceeded with surgery, but you have to do what is best for you and Nova.

You and Nova are in my thoughts


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When my Doberman had various health problems (before the cancer that killed him) my vet set up a phone consultation for me with a specialist at Washington State University Vet school, a highly regarded place. Anyhow, there was no fee for that. Then I was referred to a specialty vet hospital here in Washington (when I lived in Idaho) for liver biospies, ultra sound, laproscopy, two blood transfusions, all kinds of tests and there was no referral fee. But there were plenty of other fees, believe me. It's been a few years so maybe they do things differently now.

If what you understand of this disease is that the prognosis is poor, then if it were my dog, I would not put her through a lot of uncomfortable treatments and difficult recovery periods. If the prognosis is quite good, I would probably. So, if you're not sure about the likelihood of a good outcome and you're not comfortable and confident in the treatment plan, the pain involved, the time, what this will do to your dog, the cost, if that's an issue, then I wouldn't proceed until you _are_. Don't let the vet push you into anything. They are often out for money and while I get it that cancer spreads fast sometimes (sometimes not) and there often isn't much time to waste, it can't take _that_ long to get your questions answered and get you feeling sure of your next step. If there isn't much hope for a healthy near future, personally, I'd let the dog go if she were mine when the joy from life is over shadowed by her illness.

It may give you peace of mind to see the oncologist even if you need to pay a referral fee. Or maybe there's another oncologist you can get in to see without a referral. I don't really know how it works. That peace of mind will tell you that you've done everything reasonable for your dog.

I've had to do this sort of thing several times. It's heart breaking, terribly devastating. I feel so sad for you for what you're going through. Do what's best for your sweet dog and it WILL be the best for you ultimately. You'll know what to do when you can be left alone without someone pushing at you....to go through the options, weigh and measure everything...quality of life vs. some extra time with your dog....all that. You'll know. You just tell the vet to hang on while you figure it out. If he won't give you that, then dump his arse. I can't stand that thought.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm unfamiliar with paying a referral fee to a veterinary specialist, and would ask your vet why. It may be customary with academic specialists. I hope, if you are convinced to go forward with the surgery, that the university animal hospital can perform it. I would want Nova's rare cancer experience to be added to whatever body of information is known about it.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

First of all I'm really sorry to hear about Nova.....I know that's a terribly hard situation to deal with, especially when she's so young. I too have lost animal buddies I just loved, and way too early....

I have never heard of a vet (or Doctor of any sort) charging a referral fee, and I don't agree with that at all. I also don't feel your vet should be pushing you like that to book this surgery, it's a huge decision and financial commitment and in the end is it going to be the wisest choice given the diagnosis? 
I know it's a very difficult decision but it sounds to me by the way you describe it that the cancer is starting to spread and the surgery on her shoulder is not going to cure her.....and may just put her through a lot of extra unnecessary pain. 
I think if it were me I would make my dog as comfortable as possible with pain medication and just love her and spoil her to pieces......


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Standard Poodles are normally very stoic about pain. They will not show it if they can. Showing pain is showing weakness and they are hard wired not to do this. I would say that if she is showing pain then that pain is acute. One road is to get a lot of strong pain medication and when the time comes make the hard decision. If all of the detected tumors are of the same type, the outcome is not good, with or without surgery. It is never easy. You will suffer too. They are short lived and grace our lives quickly and are gone. Sometimes to be replaced by yet another.
Eric.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MollyMuiMa said:


> My son just had to help his Yellow Lab across the bridge last Thursday........it was cancer also. He was devastated but Bailey was in so much pain. Bailey had cancerous tumors(3) removed two years ago but they came back in several different places, and due to his age(13) and other age related ailments it was decided to let him be. When it seemed the pain killers were not effective anymore, and he had to be helped to just get up, and wincing in pain, my son realized it was selfish to not let him go across the bridge. I remember when the first surgery was done, my son & his wife wiped out their vacation fund and tax return to be able to afford it.........he said he would have done it again if he knew Bailey had more than just months left.....................
> I'm sorry you have such a terrible decision to make, but only you really know what is best.


I'm so sorry Molly, for your son and his dog, Bailey. I dread when my son loses his dog. He's got an unhealthy (imo) attachment to her...over the top. And he's going to be devastated. Poor Bailey. It's so very heart breaking to see them suffering and in so much pain. I remember my Lyric with stomach cancer...so hard. 

Pink...whatever the outcome of this, you know you have people around you who have been through it. (((hugs))) Cancer just sucks! The whole thing! :angry:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

pinkteaji, I am so sorry that you've had this upsetting news about your Nova. 

Whatever you decide will be the best decision for you and here is my take: it sounds like Nova has had the bad luck to have developed a rare malignant case of a usually benign hair follicle tumor. The deeply embedded tendrils of cancerous growth into his shoulder muscles is one indicator of invasive disease. The fact that he has at least two other apparently surface tumors at present suggest that he may have pervasive cancer. According to several vet sites, middle age is the typical age of onset for this, so Nova is not too young for this to have happened, though it is deucedly bad luck.
Since you vet has diagnosed cancer, he has told you that this is malignant and not benign. I am puzzled as to why he is pushing so hard for you to put Nova through an incredibly invasive and painful surgery when the prognosis is unlikely to be greatly improved. In fact, it sounds to me like Nova will suffer needlessly during what could be his best remaining days. 

If I were you, I would ask the vet what makes him push for the surgery so urgently? There may be a failure of communication here - the vet may have a mistaken belief that no matter what the prognosis, you will want to do everything you can to prolong Nova's life in any way, no matter the cost financially or in pain and lengthy recovery for Nova - and therefore a quick surgery might make sense. That may not be true in your case and perhaps clarification is required. Also, as someone upthread pointed out, no matter how quickly surgery may be indicated, it is never necessary to be so quick that there is literally no time for a few important questions to be answered. I would be cautious if the vet is unable or unwilling to give you the answers you need or obtain expert advice if he cannot answer the questions. Referring you to an expert at a cost of $80 just makes me uncomfortable. It is almost like the vet is trying to put roadblocks in front of your ability to get reasonable questions answered and there seems to be pressure to move forward without full information.

On the other hand, the vet may be able to make a very strong case for the odds of Nova's complete cure of the trachoepithelioma as long as the surgery goes forward, and if that is possible you need to know that before you make your decision. To me, with the other tumors present and one already definitely having tested malignant, I doubt that this is the case, and yet this is a question you may want to ask your vet.

If Nova's prognosis is not very good (i.e. if it is cancer, as you have already been told it is), then putting him through surgery of this magnitude may only mean that his remaining time with you is spent trying to recover from a hugely invasive and painful surgery which will not, in fact, cure him of the disease. There will be expenses for ongoing palliative care, pain medication and a reduction of quality of life. It may come down to prolonging quantity of life at the expense of quality. Some people do choose to go ahead in spite of this type of situation for many reasons, and then again, others choose to let their pets enjoy the best quality of life they can for as long as they can (without surgeries to recover from, for example) and then to let them go when the cancer progresses to the point that the dog's quality of life has dropped for good below a point that is acceptable to its loving owner. 

Neither choice is right or wrong - it is up to you to make this decision balancing your love for Nova with what he needs and what you need. It is a hard situation and it will hurt no matter what because there is pain in both options. 

I second the suggestion of others on this thread. If you can, get a second opinion from another vet not associated with your first vet. 

Good luck with this, pinkteaji. I am so sorry you have this difficult situation at a difficult time in your life.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I have little to add in the way of advice, you have receive some very good advice here already. I can, however add my condolences that your dear Nova and you are having to go through this difficult time together.

(((Hugs))) and prayers for you both. Viking Queen


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Oh no! I just realized that Nova is a female and I used the pronoun "he" throughout my post. So sorry. pinkteaji.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

its not a problem!


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

Thank you so much, your viewpoint is making me feel sure about the choice I'm more likely going to make in the future (which will probably be paying for her pain free care and what not). As of right now, I am saving up some money so I can be prepared to take her to an oncologist as the UGA vet school here and see what they say about her current malignant cancerous tumor as well as figure out of her other tumors are malignant. So far she has three (one her back leg, on on her head near her ear, and one on her chest). 

I'll be telling my parents this Friday that it is tumor though my parents are already speculating because of the way Nova has been acting and the stitches on her tumor have reopened constantly (the stitches have melted technically to sew up the two holes they made for the drainage back when they were draining the puss and also to look through the swollen masses of muscle to find the tumor beneath). I'll keep you guys posted throughout, thank you guys really for all your advice and well wishes.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

pinkteaji said:


> Thank you so much, your viewpoint is making me feel sure about the choice I'm more likely going to make in the future (which will probably be paying for her pain free care and what not). As of right now, I am saving up some money so I can be prepared to take her to an oncologist as the UGA vet school here and see what they say about her current malignant cancerous tumor as well as figure out of her other tumors are malignant. So far she has three (one her back leg, on on her head near her ear, and one on her chest).
> 
> I'll be telling my parents this Friday that it is cancer though my parents are already speculating because of the way Nova has been acting and the stitches on her tumor have reopened constantly (the stitches have melted technically to sew up the two holes they made for the drainage back when they were draining the puss and also to look through the swollen masses of muscle to find the tumor beneath). I'll keep you guys posted throughout, thank you guys really for all your advice and well wishes.


Can't tell if its the muscle biopsy or the tumor but she's been limping around ever since the biopsy and just barely has any energy. She'll have little moments of energy and liveliness but will settle down quickly. Even laying down seems hard for her and its breaking my heart (i can tell by her grunts and sighs). I'll keep you guys posted throughout, thank you guys really for all your advice and well wishes.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Pinkteaji, you have gotten a great deal of good advice so far. I would just add that you could ask the various veterinarians to help define some more options, between the "jellyfish surgery" and doing nothing.

Here is why I say that. Eighteen months ago my elderly little Hecuba had a seizure on a Sunday, so I drove her in a bit of a panic to the emergency vet hospital. They met me at the door with a little stretcher, and took her quickly for treatment. In a while a young vet came out (I say young because I do think she was inexperienced) , and I asked how Hecuba was. "The same" she said. Since when I brought her in she was shaking, head twisted, couldn't walk, and had difficulty breathing, I thought this might be the end.

Then, 20 minutes later, Hecuba walked out to me on a lead, head straight, breathing, and seemingly not in much distress. The doctor proposed doing an MRI, under anesthesia. I said, and if you find a tumor, what do we do then. "Brain surgery" she said.

My reply was that if at one end of a spectrum is an MRI and brain surgery on a 15 year old dog, and the other end is euthanasia, can we please define some points of action in between the two?

In the end, Hecuba lived another year, most of it quite comfortably and happily. I do think I kept her going with meds and treatments more than she would have liked but do not regret pushing back on the vet who seemed eager to do some interesting surgery.

You have some difficult decisions to make, and having Nova live comfortably and basking in your care, and letting her go as appropriate, is the most loving thing you can do. Your Poodle Forum friends will support you.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Manxcat I totally agree with you, is the pain worth a little longer to have the baby with you. I personally cannot stand pain, and do not want my babies to suffer through the surgery, and still have only a short time with a lot of pain prior.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I nevr heard of paying a vet for a referral, I would be out of there. Let the Vet he referred you to pay him is referral. I guess I am like this as I am in real estate and work with a lot of referrals.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that you are making the right decision for you and for Nova. As others have said, a major operation is justifiable if it removes pain and improves quality of life, but I don't think that I would want to put any of my animals - or myself if I were the one suffering - through it just for the possibility of a few months of highly compromised time. All you can do is to gather as much information as you can, talk to as many experts as you can, and then make your decision based upon your love for Nova and your family. I strongly believe that just because we can treat something, it does not always mean that we should - sometimes it is much kinder to concentrate on palliative care. 

I am so sorry - I hope that the Oncologist is able to give you good advice that makes your decision easier, and Nova's remaining time with you more comfortable.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

This last year my daughter and son in law had to have his service dog rottweiler put to sleep. He was only six years old but had been living on borrowed time since he was a year old. Poor thing had bad joints all the way around and had already had several surgeries, and was given many courses of arthritis/joint medication and shots. The complicating factor was that many of the meds had the side effect of making him hallucinate/become extremely aggressive. The aggressive behavior was totally out of character for the poor guy, and also something that was not safe to live with. Adequan was the exception and gave the rotty two extra years of life, but it got to the point that he needed three shots per week and that was barely enough to keep him comfortable. Euthanasia was a very difficult decision to make, especially since the dog was still trying so hard to do all his service dog work. On the other hand, there was no longer a way to keep him comfortable. My daughter and I had an even harder task of making my son in law (who never even had a pet dog before) understand that as caretakers of dogs we owe it them to make sure they do not suffer... just because we love them so much we can't stand to let them go. Your dog's case is different, but I think you will know when it is time to just keep her comfortable and then let her go. Hoping that her tumors proceed slowly and that she is comfortable and happy with the time she has left with you.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

*Update: 
*
The UGA vet school is an referral only hospital so I'll have to pay that referral fee to my vet if I want Nova to be seen by an oncologist from there...
and the school told me the first visit might costs up to 600-800 dollars and thats just for doing test runs on her
I don't have that kind of money and my parents money are tight right now because they're about to buy a house (they're recovering from a foreclosure situation). 

As much as my friends are telling to me to get those pet care loans, I'm not willing to do that because I've been in debt before and IN debt now due to school loans and credit card debt (because I charged Nova's previous surgery on there for the benign tumor she had before along with overnight stay fees) with a minimum wage job, I'm not willing to put myself in a even more financially reckless situation with multiple loans should I file for that pet care loan esp since I have another healthy dog I need to keep taking care of... though I feel like they'll judge me for not getting the loan. Maybe if I didn't owe money anywhere, I wouldn't mind it as much....*sigh* 

Thank you all for sharing your stories. Though I'm deeply saddened by the heartbreak you all had to go through for letting your furry family members and friends pass on, its giving me assurance that its a very difficult decision for ANYONE and something that definitely needs a lot of thought.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

pinkteaji said:


> *Update:
> *
> The UGA vet school is an referral only hospital so I'll have to pay that referral fee to my vet if I want Nova to be seen by an oncologist from there...
> and the school told me the first visit might costs up to 600-800 dollars and thats just for doing test runs on her
> ...


*Update 7/22/2015*

Hi everyone. We went to the vet and decided we needed to take off her largest tumor which is on her right shoulder and also the one on her head. There was also one growing on her back leg we wanted to take out as well. When we took her back to the vet, the vet noticed that she was walking with a limp (which we went to the vet for 2 weeks ago and got antiinflammatory and antibiotics). The vet who wanted to perform the surgery said we should take an x ray first to see what that was about just in case because he wanted to be cautious before we go ahead and put her through the surgery. 

He took the x rays and then called me back and said he wanted to do a bone biopsy on her back left leg. I okayed it and he said the results will come in about 2-3 weeks but he wanted to talk with me when I come pick her up that day. 

When I came he very amicably showed me the x ray and explained all the details about what we were seeing and what he was worried about. Turns out that her back leg bone was "moth eaten" which means it was very porous and fragile and brittle like a leg of a much much older dog. He said in this state it can shatter any minute which is very dangerous; he also believed that she may have a disease in there. I asked him what could cause this type of deterioration of her bone and he said he has two major possibilities in mind, one is bone infection and the other is bone cancer. 

He didn't want to tell me at first because he didn't want to put me through so much stress than I already was but I told him that I would like to know what he thinks it is. He said the way the bone looks, its is unlikely that its bone infection and he feels 90% sure that its bone cancer but he wants me to still wait for the biopsy just in case. 
He wanted to not do the tumor removal surgery till then because if its bone cancer then thats something we have to worry about and putting her through this tumor removal surgery is not a good idea and possibly just putting her through more pain that needed and that I also should possibly be thinking about making some "hard choices" in the future should it come out to be bone cancer. 

I kind of took the hint about what he was implying. Its rare that a dog has tricopepithelioma cancer and it seems like it has spread all over her body (she has now almost 8 more tumors than the previous ones we found since May), but now she may also have bone cancer as well. 

If you guys have any experience with bone cancer, feel free to share your advice or experience (if you're comfortable). 

This wasn't the news of what I wanted tbh. I was hoping she'd feel a little better with the tumors gone but that relief didn't come unfortunately. I nearly broke down at the vets office but I managed to hold it till I got to my car though the vet tech who helped transported Nova to my car for me noticed and tried to console me. I'm feeling just completely dejected but I want to still try and stay hopeful till the biopsy results come back.

Nova is doing fine but she does not like sitting or laying around haha. She wants to follow me everywhere around my apartment and her favorite time is going to pee and poop because I let her go off leash so she can walk around the yard a little bit. She's been feeling "better" as in she has a bit of more energy than she usually does thanks to the pain killers we were prescribed for her.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I'm so sorry, I lost my Pablo (non poodle) to inoperable cancer last year. It is so hard knowing the end is imminent but not knowing how long. I have seen many friends who put their dogs through chemo and the result not once has been good.

My advice is to enjoy every second you and spend with dear Nova. 

My heart goes out to you all, and I hope when the time comes the decision is clear, though it is ALWAYS so hard! 

Thank you for the update and hang in there!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear. This does not sound good. I'm so terribly sorry. I agree that putting the dog through a lot of procedures when it's so iffy just isn't worth it. My heart goes out to you and your sweet dog.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I am so sorry that you are going through this. Every situation is unique, and nobody who is not walking in your shoes can truly understand the situation. You are clearly a very loving Mom and I know that you will make the right choices at just the right time. Every good day, every good moment has a value that only you can see and add to the equation.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so sorry. To me it sounds as if it is time for palliative care and planning a gentle exit when the time comes, but you know her best, and will make the right decisions for her. It is so very hard, I know - the fear of not doing enough, and maybe missing that tiny, tiny chance of a good outcome, can push us on when the alternative is so desolate. Remember that Nova is not worried about the future, or possible pain, or the side effects of drugs or procedures - you carry all that anxiety so that she can continue to be her sweet poodle self for as long as possible.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I too have to say that if it were me, I'd let my dog live as pain free as possible and make it a sweet and loving time to say goodbye..............bone cancer means amputation which just means more painful surgery. Not something I'd want to do at all, unless I were sure it mean a long, long, life. With the cancer being all through out her body, it is not sounding good. 
Spoil her, give her anything she could possible want, love her with all your heart, but let her go when the quality of life becomes just a series of days lived in pain. I am so sorry you are having to go through this.................God Bless.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree with everyone else. Enjoy your time with her and spoil her every second you can. I am so sorry for what you are going through, I can't even imagine how it feels.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm so sorry. Cancer in a bone is horribly painful and can be hard to control with pain meds. In your shoes, I would coddle my precious Poodle a few days and then release to the Bridge....


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So sorry for you and Nova. Thinking of you.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

My heartfelt sympathy goes out to you - this is an awful time, especially as you wait for the definitive results.

Others have said it so well - Nova doesn't know what is coming up in the future, be it surgery or whatever. All she knows is that she is loved and adored and you give her stuff that eases the pain.

Just wish we could ease yours, Pinkteaji, but know you have the whole PF community sending you prayers, hugs, comforting thoughts.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

So we've got results. With a lot of talk with vet techs, different vets, we've gotten results for Nova and it is grim....

We went ahead with a chest x ray and a medic exam recommended by the vet because he felt something was up. Nova had been trouble breathing the last month or so and we thought it was the heat or her tumors causing fevers. Turned out it was actually the cancer that was preventing her from breathing properly. The cancer in her shoulder had indeed metastasized and spread to her bones and as well as her lungs. He showed us the x ray and it had literally covered almost her entire lungs. We didn't realize how much she had been suffering the last two months until we saw that x ray and how much she had kept to herself like the poodle she was. 

The vet was very upset because normally this is a very slow growing cancer and yet here she was two months later with 8 new tumors than her previous ones all together in a total of 13 tumors on her body and metastasizing into her bones and lungs. 

With a long talk and much deliberation, we decided it would be best to put Nova to sleep. She's been in a lot of pain though she tries her best to not look like it and stay quiet. But we figured she was...she wasn't moving around as much and she was lethargic. She also had trouble breathing, panting every night esp even though we did our best to keep her comfortable and cool. 

We are putting her down tomorrow at the vet's office and having her cremated at the UGA vet school. I just want to say thank you to everyone who shared their story, who gave me strength and courage about my decisions, who gave me advice, who sent their lovely prayers for me and Nova. I was hoping really really hoping even in my bleakest moment that I would have at least another 2-3 years with her but it seems life had other plans. I didn't realize I'd only have literally those 3 months with her but at hte same time I feel so bad that she was in so much pain and I didn't even notice. I can't imagine what it must feel like to basically suffocate while your entire body is in so much pain. 

Thank you all again for all your help, I really mean it.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Somebody elses' words, but my heartfelt
sentiments....................
Laurel & Molly


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ditto on Molly's very lovely "card." I hope your last night together is a good one.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So incredibly sorry for you and Nova. That is just such sad news. I hope you have lots of cuddles today and tonight and plenty of lovely memories after that. Thinking of you.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

The kindest thing a human can do is to help their dear beloved companion softly pass across the rainbow bridge.

My heart and prayers are with you all. I know how very difficult this is.

Rest assured, Nova KNOWS how very loved she is.

Cathy


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It is the last and kindest gift, but it hurts us so much. It has developed so very quickly, but perhaps that is easier for her than a long, slow decline with chronic pain. Holding you both in my heart today.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

This is so heartbreaking and I am so very sorry you are experiencing it. 

Bless you for thinking of Nova's comfort and well-being over yours.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

I am so terribly sorry to hear this and my heart is breaking for you. Nova is so very loved and this, sadly, is the last loving thing you can do for her.

I applaud your decision, hard though it may be, to help her go peacefully and painlessly to the Bridge.

Thinking of you, and hoping that good memories soon help ease your pain.

With much love and hugs from all here on the Isle of Man
xxx


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh I am so sorry. What sad news.

I remember hearing about Luna, and thinking that she ended up in a wonderful home. You had many happy years together and I am so sorry that there won't be any more time good times together. So sad. Thinking of you today.


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