# Poodles #2 Smartest breed?



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Is mine the exception? He seems so lazy and just bored with training. I've tried using new stinky treats. He seems interested but gives up so quickly. He sits, melts into the floor, flings his arms and stamps his feet, lies on his side and flails around. I guess this is him venting his frustration. Maybe I'm just not a great dog trainer, but it's hard to get him motivated and in the right direction.

I've been trying to teach him how to hold an object and eventually drop it in a basket. I understand this must be broken down into steps so just focusing on him taking an object and holding it in his mouth, if only briefly. I know he understands this command because he will do it with empty water bottles, a hat, and new, random objects, but when I introduce this one rubber ball that has holes in it, he refuses to even mouth it. I don't understand this. I've been watching some videos on training dogs to hold objects and they seem so focused and intent on pleasing - Leroy... not so much. When he seems frustrated I just go back to what he knows - taking the objects in his mouth that he likes. Then ending with his sit, high fives, down, stay, play dead. He does all those commands well. Now I need to work on him actually holding the object for a certain length of time. 

I feel like I've got the only poodle that doesn't live up to the poodle intelligence! I envy those border collies with their focus. Anyone else feel this way?


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I felt the first training session to teach "hold" was somewhat long. I think I was beating a dead horse and was making Leroy frustrated, in turn making myself frustrated and then he felt this and made his focus worse.

So I re-grouped and tried a second session with a wooden spoon. I remained upbeat and used his usual treats (freeze dried salmon). He responded even better to these treats (which is weird because I thought new treats would make him more interested), and he reliably picked up the spoon each time I pointed to it and told him "hold." The session was no longer than 10 minutes and we ended the training with his favorite command, "high five." My next session will be to ask him to hold his toys, because I've tried this previously and it didn't go anywhere. He was confused and thought I was wanting to play with him with the toys, and did not understand I just wanted him to hold it. Of course this made him frustrated and he ended up flailing around the floor again. Maybe I'm just expecting too much of him at once but I guess because he's a poodle I feel he can handle it - but I'll keep in mind the complexity of the commands I'm asking him and I will continue to take baby steps.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Look at it this way: he's smart enough to know how to get out of training.  

How old is Leroy? I know one of mine was easier to train once he grew out of that puppy phase. 

They're just like kids in that they all seem to learn differently. Alex trained himself. He'd sit naturally and I'd just say "sit." Then I'd say "sit" and he'd sit down. It was the same with stay, down, up, come, etc. 

Now Pippin is very high energy and has trouble focusing, so I tried a different approach. Plus, I kept the training sessions short and sweet or he'd really lose interest and get even more wired.

Maybe you just haven't found Leroy's 'wavelength' yet! Hopefully some actual trainers will weigh in.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Maybe he's upset you thought he was a doodle? ;D

Kidding!

Vienna is the same way where she doesn't follow clues, but I see her do other things that tells me she can be smart. Though, most dogs I've met next to Vegas have a hard time proving themselves.

I think it's because I caught Vegas's age of training and really used it, letting him know when we're leaning something new. Vienna I got as an adult, and only kind knew sit when I got her. I've taught her some things, but I think I passed that window.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Haha can't believe I ever thought he was a doodle. I look at him and he's poodle all the way! I was trying to watch TV and he kept coming up to me and staring, so thought he wanted to continue with the training. The third session involved me pointing to an object some distance away from it, and him picking it up and holding it with his mouth. He did great. Then I threw the object even further, asked him to hold it and bring it to me and drop it in my hand (eventually I'll add a basket underneath my hand and slowly faze my hand away). He did this excellently. I was so thrilled and squealed excitedly. After that though, Leroy lost complete focus. He was done. I tried to get him to do the last command again but he got distracted by a black speck on the ground. I brushed the speck under a blanket, and then he started rooting under the blanket. I couldn't regain his attention after that. Teenagers!! *rolls eyes* He will be one at the end of this month but he still acts like a baby.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Poodle personalities vary a lot, just like humans do. It sounds like you need to get higher value treats. Mine will do just about anything for a snibble of steak, for example. I also bought some expensive freezdried beef (Stella's). I use those for when I really want her to focus. Try again with some chopped up chicken. I have also had good luck with the Natural Balance food rolls that I cut in little chunks. You can buy mini rolls for around a dollar at Pet Co. They aren't as high value as a piece of steak or the freexdried beef, but they're pretty good. The treat I use with the least value is little round cheese crackers. Those work when she is hungry. I use them at the dog park for calling her to Come. They aren't as smelly in my pocket.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I know that the border collie is #1. My sister has one and can teach it anything... but he will also drive you crazy wanting to do something all the time. If you are walking he is moving from side to side like he is herding. If you are sitting he is bring you something ect. I much prefer the #2 breed, hands down.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

A border collie is not for the average person. I have met some really neurotic ones! I felt so sorry for them. They need almost constant mental stimulation to stay mentally healthy. Most people should not own a border collie.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I personally couldn't own a border collie. Too much energy and a go-go-go attitude! Just wished Leroy would meet me in the middle. Sometimes he's too content lounging and sleeping all day.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My sister shows dogs, trains dogs for other people for a living and lives on a huge farm... but even she would tell you , never would she own another border collie. I think they need to work full time and that's hard to find in today's world. But her dog is beautiful, prettiest one I have ever seen, looks like a panda bear.


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## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> Is mine the exception? He seems so lazy and just bored with training. I've tried using new stinky treats. He seems interested but gives up so quickly. He sits, melts into the floor, flings his arms and stamps his feet, lies on his side and flails around. I guess this is him venting his frustration. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I'm sorry for your's and Leroy's frustration....BUT, this description literally made me LMBO! I was totally seeing Leroy "pitch a fit" about the training! Thank you! I have had a rough day and this really helped ease some of the stress!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Here's an example of a poodle genius:

I groom one of Vienna's littermates, a large (30") male with epilepsy. His owner has been grooming him for the last couple years, but she says it's just easier to have me do it. I can see why. I have to have another girl help hold his head (mom used to use headlock) in order to shave his lips.

When I go to shave his feet, he will either cross them, or put ALL his weight on the foot I'm trying to lift up to shave. He's not mean, he doesn't jerk or do the psycho dog exorcism flop on the table.. he's just learned techniques that mom may have given up on with grooming.

I groom him on Friday, maybe I'll get a vid of it, it's quite funny from someone that's not actually doing the grooming.

Here's another example of a poodle genius. This little guy may have learned as a pup that putting on a big show like this has made some groomers stop shaving his feet. My friend that grooms him now calls his bluff, since he doesn't actually bite.

... we just find it hilarious.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

OMG, that's hilarious! His lips kept getting stuck. What a little stinker. You can tell he's not going to bite, but thinks he's a tough little guy. I'll bet you could teach him to do that on command.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Rowan said:


> OMG, that's hilarious! His lips kept getting stuck. What a little stinker. You can tell he's not going to bite, but thinks he's a tough little guy. I'll bet you could teach him to do that on command.


Me too! What a hoot. 

And I loved the description of yr 30" guy who practices 'civil disobedience'! lol

Poodles are sooooo crafty. And they know what works!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I guess all poodles are smart! Just in different ways. Leroy may not like doing all kinds of commands but he does pick up tone and voice inflection very well. And the look on a poodle's face when you are talking about them and using their name is priceless! You can see the gears turning in their little heads.

Your description of "psycho dog exorcism flop on the table" made me laugh! This is all too familiar. I had a dog today (shih tzu) that would just keep turning in circles unless you stopped her. And of course she'd keep doing this to avoid me shaving her pads and trimming her face. That little poodle snarling is pretty hilarious - he looks like a vampire with those pointy canines! The same circling dog would also mouth. She'd place her mouth on your hand ever so gently but she kept doing this, so I finally just put my fingers in her mouth. I kept doing this and of course she got annoyed. Did she ever bite? Nope! Called her bluff and also rigged her up to where if she kept turning in circles, she was basically choking herself while also pinching her waist (had to put a noose around her torso), so I was able to complete the groom without her turning into a tornado. She had never been groomed before. She wasn't bad, just a little neurotic with some quirks. 

Good luck with that whopper poodle, Fluffyspoos!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> Is mine the exception? He seems so lazy and just bored with training. I've tried using new stinky treats. He seems interested but gives up so quickly. He sits, melts into the floor, flings his arms and stamps his feet, lies on his side and flails around. I guess this is him venting his frustration.


Some dogs are more prone to frustration than others. I can always tell when I'm making mistakes in my training when Vasco goes into slow motion (although it's actually quite funny to watch :smile.

Are you using a clicker? That helps the dog to understand PRECISELY what earns him a treat.

A lot of clicker training books describe people as falling into two training mistakes ... too much splitting or too much lumping. If Leroy is frustrated, maybe you are lumping too much together? 

When I'm training something new or difficult, I aim to set things up for the dog so that I reinforce at a rate of about 75-80%. In other words, I set him up to succeed (and get the treat) the vast majority of the time. I only expect him to offer behaviours or try variations 20-25% of the time. 

Every once in a while, we get totally stuck on something, and rather than run the risk of Vasco becoming uninterested in training, we go back and have a session of 100 Things To Do With A Box. Basically, you set a cardboard box on the floor and reward ANYTHING the dog does with the box. Vasco loves this game; it gets us both giggling.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

JE-UK, I use clicker training with Leroy. I feel he knows the clicker cause when I reach for it, his ears perk up. I realized with him I have to use objects he really wants to mouth/hold to get him motivated before moving on to other objects, and I have to keep the session short and sweet, at most 10 minutes. 

Last night I just reinforced his fetching behavior. Wasn't anything new but I plan to shape the action to where he is retrieving an object and dropping it into a basket. He really enjoyed the game of fetch - to him it was "Ya mean I run after this cool toy, and when I drop it in your hand, you give me a treat and then I do it again???!" He did really great!

I am realizing how hard it is to focus training on one dog when you've got multiple dogs in the house. I have to put the poor Pomeranian that I'm dogsitting, in another room so I can work with Leroy and you can hear her continuously barking and my cats stand outside the door scratching to get to me because they can smell treats, so lots of distractions. This is probably why Leroy has a short attention span!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Here's another example of a poodle genius. This little guy may have learned as a pup that putting on a big show like this has made some groomers stop shaving his feet. My friend that grooms him now calls his bluff, since he doesn't actually bite.
> 
> ... we just find it hilarious.
> Poodle Doesn't Like Clean Feet - YouTube


Am I just a humourless sourpuss, or did anyone else find that video really disturbing and upsetting? Poor little guy is throwing stress behaviours all OVER the place and trying desperately not to resort to biting. If he were mine, he'd have a faceful of chicken anytime anyone went near his feet!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Am I just a humourless sourpuss, or did anyone else find that video really disturbing and upsetting? Poor little guy is throwing stress behaviours all OVER the place and trying desperately not to resort to biting. If he were mine, he'd have a faceful of chicken anytime anyone went near his feet!


I don't think you're a humourless sourpuss! I actually hadn't thought if it that way, but you make an _excellent _point. The lip licking and teeth baring... definite signs of stress. I'm sure he could benefit from some "positive reinforcement" grooming, and might even come to enjoy having his feet shaved.

Another example of differing perspectives and why I love this forum!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Am I just a humourless sourpuss, or did anyone else find that video really disturbing and upsetting? Poor little guy is throwing stress behaviours all OVER the place and trying desperately not to resort to biting. If he were mine, he'd have a faceful of chicken anytime anyone went near his feet!


I agree the dog is stressed, but knows better that he shouldn't bite. This brings up the touchy topic of training between groomer and client. There's several scenarios that I come across:

1) Client doesn't care the dog acts like this, just shave the feet.
2) Groomer can suggest "Your dog becomes highly stressed each time I shave his feet, I recommend leaving the feet fluffy and natural," to where the client can agree or disagree.
3) Gets offended when you suggest positive reinforcement training at home so the dog can accept feet shaving. Or, they will be grateful for the suggestion but still has to follow through.
4) Groomer suggests positive reinforcement training at the shop. Tells the owner to bring favorite treats. Some groomers will take the time out of their busy schedule to do this, but it will be a process, and most don't have the time. Some salons don't like to give food in their shop for allergy or liability reasons. Most groomers believe it's not their place to train the dog anyway, they are a dog groomer, not dog trainer. 

It really depends on where you work as a groomer, in a corporate (more rules) or private (up to the owner) setting. If you work for yourself that's another story. Personally I would love to train every dog I groom but can't really do that where I work. You run into major problems with this type of dog's behavior in the hands of an abusive groomer.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Or you never know, this could be the final improvement of grooming a dog no one could touch for a long time.

Just got done grooming Brody, Vienna's brother. I forgot my camera at home, but the girls thought it was hilarious when I showed them crossing his legs when I was reaching for his feet.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> There's several scenarios that I come across:
> 
> 1) Client doesn't care the dog acts like this, just shave the feet.
> 2) Groomer can suggest "Your dog becomes highly stressed each time I shave his feet, I recommend leaving the feet fluffy and natural," to where the client can agree or disagree.
> ...


Thanks for that ... I forget what dilemmas groomers are faced with on a regular basis. I'm tremendously lucky with my kind and gentle groomer, who is quick to hand out "homework" assignments, and has enough of a waiting list that she drops anyone who doesn't comply!


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