# Another dog food question...



## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I'd like to toss another question into the dog food mix, too. 

How high of a protein content are people using? I noticed that the 6 star foods (per the dog food review site) are usually 40 - 42% protein, with warnings that they might not be appropriate for puppies. The 5 star foods are usually in the 30 - 40% protein range.

Especially those of you with minis, regardless of brand you feed, what protein level do you look for?


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## kimstm (Jun 24, 2010)

I feed my puppy Fromm Puppy Gold large breed, but am getting ready to change to Fromm 4 star which is all stages. The Fromm 4 stars are around 24% protein and Fromm 4 star grain-free is 30%. I have been very pleased with the food and her poop is firm. Bella seems to really love it! I believe the Fromm's has probiotics in it. I also believe it is a 5 star food.

Fromm Family Foods - Four-Star Grain-Free Surf & Turf for dogs

Kim


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think I have narrowed down to either Solid Gold Barking at the Moon or Orijen 6Fish. I might abandon Fromm Surf & Turf because it has chicken and I have an inkling that Millie might have a chicken sensitivity. Not positive though.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

I have attended a few Pat Hastings seminars.
She is an avid user of adult/maintenance food to wean puppies on and keep them on maintenance food for the rest of their life.

I used to give puppy food to my standards and have stopped doing so since I took Pat's seminars.

35-42% protein in any dog food is way too high for large breeds (to include stand. poodles).. The high protein level puts a huge strain on the kidneys and also has been proven to cause structural defects in growing puppies. 
I wean my puppies on Fromm 4 star (Salmon A La Veggies) which is I believe 26% protein and 16% fat (give or take) and I found that they grow slowly and never had to deal with Panosteitis. 
Both Lola and Cole have been raised since puppyhood on the maintenance and both have Hips, OFA Excellent.

The only high protein foods I will give are the ones that do not have a higher level than 30% (which is a far cry from Orijen 6 fish or other brands boasting a 40% protein level. I like ACANA (Pacifica) the fish based dog food made in Canada, and my boy Cole was on it during his special's career and did beautifully on it.. The level is only 30% and is perfect.. 
But I would never use foods with a higher protein level.
Orijen and Surf and Turf are great foods but are not for large breeds .
I would also not give them to the smaller breeds (miniature poodles) since the level of protein is way too high and can compromise the kidneys.
This is a personal opinion which others may not agree with but I can only speak from my personal experience in feeding adults as well as puppies.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Such a conundrum! Surf & Turf has 30 % protein. 

Whitepoodles - other than Fromm (I might not be able to get it easily) what dry kibble would you reccommend for both a 6 1/2 month standard poodle and a 2 year old standard poodle?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Such a conundrum! Surf & Turf has 30 % protein.
> 
> Whitepoodles - other than Fromm (I might not be able to get it easily) what dry kibble would you reccommend for both a 6 1/2 month standard poodle and a 2 year old standard poodle?


Great of Surf and Turf has only 30% protein than that is great.
The only reason I didnt want to use this food is because IT USED TO BE preserved with Citric Acid (causes bloat) instead of Vit. E. etc... 
They have CHANGED (thank God) the preservative and now no longer preserve it with Citric Acid (thank God) but with another preservative which does not exacerbate bloat. This food is great but a tad expensive.
Prairie, Acana (if you can get it in the U.S.), Canidae are also very good foods.
I also cook for my dogs. I prepare legumes. I boil them until they are soft.. then I add raw meat and raw ground veggies, mix all together and freeze in batches in large yogurt containers. I give 3 TBSP of this mixutre into their kibble and also ad probiotics (digestive enzymes) , oxi drops and antioxidant granules. I get the oxi drops and antioxidant granules from Dog Health - Cat Health - Pet Health - Horse Health - Human Health | NZYMES.COM (PT)
and the Digestive Enhancer (brown colored container) form Nature's Farmacy.
You can google both. 
I have had wonderful results with all the foods I have given , additives and supplements. As a result my dogs are in optimum weight and good tone.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think I have narrowed down to either Solid Gold Barking at the Moon or Orijen 6Fish. I might abandon Fromm Surf & Turf because it has chicken and I have an inkling that Millie might have a chicken sensitivity. Not positive though.


Chicken! That is exactly why I am phasing out the Fromm S&T. The spoos love it, but we really have to get Jazz's ears under control.

Out of the two choices above, I would try the Orijen 6Fish. It was on my short list of choices but hard to find around here. It is rated 6 out of 6 stars and it looks good for allergy sufferers (no chicken, egg, beef, grains, etc), and the fish is preserved with NATUR-OX (a blend of rosemary and mixed tocopherals) and not the dreaded Ethoxyquin. It has probiotics included  Oh how I wish I could buy this locally. The protein is more suitable for adult (large breed) dogs.

The SG Barking is a 5 out of 6 rated food but also a very good choice. Also good for allergy sensitive dogs but not sure about the Ethoxyquin free issue. I'm sure a bit more digging around and this could be answered easily. I have not done it yet because I have decided on Calif Naturals GF Venison Pure & Simple in a rotation of the NB L.I.D. formulas (excluding chicken or lamb for now). TOTW Pacific Stream is also in the running. They all have lower protein than I would prefer, but I will add ground venison or turkey to help in that area. 

Good luck with your decision.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Great of Surf and Turf has only 30% protein than that is great.
> The only reason I didnt want to use this food is because IT USED TO BE preserved with Citric Acid (causes bloat) instead of Vit. E. etc...
> ...


When you say prairie, are you referring to nature's variety prairie?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie;114280 said:


> When you say prairie, are you referring to nature's variety prairie?


Yes, that's it. Could not remember. There are so many food brands one can get literally lost.

I know I have had excellent results for the past 5 years with Fromm , main reason why I recommend it.

If you cant get it in your area, you should google the company and they ship it anywhere you want. I dont believe they will charge.. but to make sure ask them.

The ordering will be worth it..I LOVE this food and it does wonders for my dogs. Ofcourse the supplements dont hurt either,


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Lilah+Jasper said:


> Chicken! That is exactly why I am phasing out the Fromm S&T. The spoos love it, but we really have to get Jazz's ears under control.
> 
> Lila & Jasper:
> 
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> Lilah+Jasper said:
> 
> 
> > Chicken! That is exactly why I am phasing out the Fromm S&T. The spoos love it, but we really have to get Jazz's ears under control.
> ...


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> whitepoodles said:
> 
> 
> > Surf & Turf does have chicken in it :/
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> ChocolateMillie said:
> 
> 
> > [/COLOR]
> ...


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## Littleknitwit (Jul 19, 2010)

I am so confused by all this food stuff. My dogs Sam (8 yo labrador) and Daphne (11 week old Spoo) are both on Taste of the Wild High Prairie. Sam, the lab, is actually eating the Salmon too, because we have it left over and he tolerates it fine. 

Anyway Sam's coat is shiny and nice... 

I get so overwhelmed with grain free or not, protein levels... good grief I don't even put this much thought in feeding my HUMAN kids! Seems easier to feed them than my dogs.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Littleknitwit said:


> I am so confused by all this food stuff. My dogs Sam (8 yo labrador) and Daphne (11 week old Spoo) are both on Taste of the Wild High Prairie. Sam, the lab, is actually eating the Salmon too, because we have it left over and he tolerates it fine.
> 
> Anyway Sam's coat is shiny and nice...
> 
> I get so overwhelmed with grain free or not, protein levels... good grief I don't even put this much thought in feeding my HUMAN kids! Seems easier to feed them than my dogs.


True LOL.

Fortunately feeding certain foods to children wont produce hip dysplasia, which is one reason why some breeders incl. myself, who show and keep breeding stock do not want to feed a very high protein diet to their keepers and suggest their pet owners do the same. My main concern with the high protein level is 1. the puppy grows too fast and body grows faster than joints and can put pressure on the limbs which is not good, and 2. diets very high in protein also compromise kidneys making them work twice as hard and eventually may lead to kidney damage.

As to what concerns grains, I am not against grain at all unless the dog has an established allergy to grain, then for sure it is better to feed grain free.

Unfortunately most grain free foods also are very high in protein (as some grain is considered a filler, but not in good quality high brands). When there is no grain in a certain brand of kibble than the meat content is higher which naturally increases the protein level (%).

It is a matter of preference and what one believes to be good for their dogs, by doing trial and error and also if possible taking some nutrition courses or seminars about structure.

Pat Hastings is adamantly against feeding puppy foor to med. to large breeds that include the stand. poodle. Since attending several seminars she offered I started to feed only maintenance food to both my puppies and adults.

I have produced two excellent hips (Lola & Cole) since starting on the maintenance diet for both pups and adults. Again it is a matter of choice and what one feels comfortable and safe with


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Littleknitwit said:


> I am so confused by all this food stuff. My dogs Sam (8 yo labrador) and Daphne (11 week old Spoo) are both on Taste of the Wild High Prairie. Sam, the lab, is actually eating the Salmon too, because we have it left over and he tolerates it fine.
> 
> Anyway Sam's coat is shiny and nice...
> 
> I get so overwhelmed with grain free or not, protein levels... good grief I don't even put this much thought in feeding my HUMAN kids! Seems easier to feed them than my dogs.


It is all very confusing! I am literally addicted to keeping my pups as safe, healthy and happy as possible. This leads to hours of research on different foods. My boyfriend is terrified of what I will be like when we have kids...

My response? I only want 4 legged kids!!!  (JK! Well, for now anyway, ha ha).


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## cheryl4237 (May 19, 2010)

has anyone here ever tried/heard of "Chicken soup for the dog lovers soul" dog food? That's what Charlies breeder had him on. It doesn't sell anywhere near us, so I switched him off of it. Just wondering if anyone has tried it, and how it might compare to other brands.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

cheryl4237 said:


> has anyone here ever tried/heard of "Chicken soup for the dog lovers soul" dog food? That's what Charlies breeder had him on. It doesn't sell anywhere near us, so I switched him off of it. Just wondering if anyone has tried it, and how it might compare to other brands.


I have heard good things about it. Was Charlie on puppy or adult? Here are some informative reviews about the Large Breed Puppy and the Large Breed Adult and regular Dog versions.

Dog Food Reviews - Chicken Soup For The Puppy Lover's Soul Large Breed - Powered by ReviewPost

Dog Food Reviews - Chicken Soup For The Dog Lover's Soul Large Breed - Powered by ReviewPost

Dog Food Reviews - Chicken Soup For The Dog Lover's Soul - Powered by ReviewPost


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## cheryl4237 (May 19, 2010)

I wish more then anything there was a way to know with 100% certainty that a certain food is the best possible food to feed . It's so hard weighing in the pro's and cons, not to mention your dogs personal reaction to said food, and there are soooo many different options to choice from.... I just want to be able to get the most awesome, wonderful food, and feed it to him the rest of his life, sigh


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

While protein is important, most of the giant breed breeders and nutrition experts say to focus more on the calcium and the calcium to phosphorous ratio. For giant breeds (mastiffs, danes, etc) you don't want calcium in excess of 1.4-1.6 and you want the Cah ratio to be around 1.2-1.4:1
The parent company of Orijen also makes a lower protein version of the food called Acana.
I went through what you are going through now with Lola. She had so many allergies and intolerances (chicken was a big one..even chicken fat in a food was miserable for her) yet was on track to be a large dog (now a 65 lb adult).
We ended up going on a fish-based grain free at 6 months (Wellness CORE, since Orijen wasn't available here then) which was the best she ever did on kibble. We ended up on prey model raw 3-4 months later because her body just isn't able to handle processed food.


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## cheryl4237 (May 19, 2010)

thanks for the links Millie


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

We are using "Chicken Soup...." right now, along with a tablespoon or so of Purina One canned food. 

I think that it is not as tasty, perhaps, as some other kibbles, because sometimes they will leave a little in their dish. I only feed a small amount, 1/4 c. for Pippin and about 1/2 c. or a bit less for Casey, plus the bit of canned, so it's not that the portions are too large for them. Plus lately, a small spoon of Stoneyfield yogurt, too. 

They seemed to like Nature's Harmony kibble better, but I can't get it in the Outer Banks.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

cheryl4237 said:


> I wish more then anything there was a way to know with 100% certainty that a certain food is the best possible food to feed . It's so hard weighing in the pro's and cons, not to mention your dogs personal reaction to said food, and there are soooo many different options to choice from.... I just want to be able to get the most awesome, wonderful food, and feed it to him the rest of his life, sigh



And.. this is precisely why I opted for the 4 star Fromm.
The philosophy behind this brand (the four star ones) is that you can feed any flavor of kibble from the 4 choices, that is why it is called the FOUR star.
You have pork and applesauce, duck sweet potatoe, salmon and veggies, and white fish.. 
I purchase them all and feed 2 months one flavor and another flavor and so on .... until I rotate all the flavors, but the main flavor they like is Salmon A La Veggies. I have YET to find a dog allergic to fish /salmon based diet this is why I feed Fromm because it enables me to not give my dogs only one kind of protein base food but diversify it with different flavors etc... In this way your dog get the complete diet, meaning what one kind lacks the other compensates for, plus some home cooked or raw food on the side. 
This in my opinion will solve all your problems of what you should give your dog in order to feel you are optimally feeding h/her. 
Hey it works for me 100% and my dogs are the testatment.


Re: Canned dog food, the only one I find my dogs will love is called the 
TRIPETTE (salmon, duck, rabbit etc.. TRIPE).. They say that if your dog consumes only beef tripe, they have all the nutrients that they can have in one meal.. Dont know about this but they love it cause it smells like poo.. LOLOL seriously

The other can I just swear by is Wellness 95% Beef or other flavors. It contains minimal water and a ton of beef and it says no preservatives.
If you open and smell the can it really smells like cooked hamburger.
Even the finikiest of poodles will eat their kibble if you add the 95% Wellness beef canned food.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Interesting. My guys will eat whatever canned food we give them, but we notice a difference if we switch kibbles. They liked the Nature's Harmony canned food just fine, but since I only use a little bit at a time, I had to cover and refrigerate the can. This caused it to quickly develop a sort of metallic odor (and I assume taste) within just a day. So we quit using it. 

That strange metallic smell/taste has never happened for us with anything else.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Beach girl said:


> Interesting. My guys will eat whatever canned food we give them, but we notice a difference if we switch kibbles. They liked the Nature's Harmony canned food just fine, but since I only use a little bit at a time, I had to cover and refrigerate the can. This caused it to quickly develop a sort of metallic odor (and I assume taste) within just a day. So we quit using it.
> 
> That strange metallic smell/taste has never happened for us with anything else.


Beach girl:
The metalic taste/smell that the food developed is because it was left in the metal can.

I usually take out the food throw out the can and put the food in a glass container ( I do not use plastic anymore), this way it will not have the metalic taste or odour.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i have futzed back and forth over dog food forever it seems. when i had just 2 dogs (my cairns) they thrived best on wellness. i then would let them have wysong because it was a bit cheaper and then i'd go back and forth with whatever ...
then i ended up w/ 4 dogs and a large feed bill because the two new ones were large breed puppies ... i have fed them california naturals, wellness, canidae, ultra natural balance, merrick, chicken soup (temperance HATED IT), innova (temperance HATED IT), TOTW (too rich) ... and i've realized that all 4 dogs all handle and love wellness best of all. their coats are lovely and it works for them. 

so we've come full circle and back to wellness for the time being. i like how it does my dogs best of all the ones i've mentioned.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

That's the Wellness kibble or the canned? Or both?


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## penny_ann (May 29, 2010)

I tried the Chicken Soup puppy food for Penny. I don't think she liked it very much though because she often left kibble in the bowl. I have since switched to Taste of the Wild Prairie and she never leaves any.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Kibble. 
Its the regular not the grain free core. They do wonderfully on it.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Beach girl I feed wellness super5 mix kibble. Any of them: chicken, or fish, or lamb. They do fine. My 18# cairns get 1/2 cup twice a day. 
The totw was too rich (loose stools) & I've decided my dogs are ok on a food w/ grain. Wellness is a consistent feed & hasn't had any recalls & easy to find.


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## cheryl4237 (May 19, 2010)

I have a question about the "all stages" dog food, like natural balance ect, that say you can feed the same formula from puppy to senior. Is that ok? Or does it have a little too much of something for an adult dog, and a little too little of something for a puppy? It's probably a dumb question, I hope it makes sense.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> The metalic taste/smell that the food developed is because it was left in the metal can.


Right, I realize that, but it was so MUCH stronger with Nature's Harmony than it was with anything else we have ever used. I don't know if it's the type of metal or lack of preservatives or what, but it was quite noticeable very quickly, whereas the other canned foods we use are fine. Usually we go through a can in about two days; it's not like this stuff is sitting in the fridge for very long. 

I think I'm going to try either Wellness or Fromm, based on all your recommendations.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Karma'sACat said:


> While protein is important, most of the giant breed breeders and nutrition experts say to focus more on the calcium and the calcium to phosphorous ratio. For giant breeds (mastiffs, danes, etc) you don't want calcium in excess of 1.4-1.6 and you want the Cah ratio to be around 1.2-1.4:1


Thanks so much for this important piece of the puzzle. I was focusing so much on the grains, protein source & ratio along with antioxidants and probiotics that I really overlooked calcium and phosphorus.

Now to compare & scrutinize my my short list once again :wacko:

Whitepoodles is spot on regarding the tripe. Oh my word is that stuff awful!!! The dogs (and cat) love it my I just cannot stomach the lingering smell. It even makes their breath unbearable. :scared: I tried to get passed it but my family voted it out...


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[
Whitepoodles is spot on regarding the tripe. Oh my word is that stuff awful!!! The dogs (and cat) love it my I just cannot stomach the lingering smell. It even makes their breath unbearable. :scared: I tried to get passed it but my family voted it out...[/QUOTE]


Lila & J:
LOL tell your family to get over it, Tripe is the BEST food you can ever give your dog.. In the wild most animals making a kill will rip the abdomen of hte prey and devour the stomach's insides... Entire nutrition there. then they will continue to go for the meat and bone.. but first they will go for the stomach contents.. This is what the tripe is... The best for your dog..

I KNOW it smells awful, but so does garlic breath and I am still eating garlic which is said to be very good and healthy for you. 

Overlook the smell it is temporary and the benefits far outweight the olfactory nerve damage,


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

wal-mart sells tripe in the meat dept....fresh, not frozen. I buy 2-3 at a time. But gag, cough, my house reeks of barn cow shiht. Oh man, nothing worse. my husband leaves, and then comes home in a bad mood, turns on the fans to exhause the air from the house.....we hate cooking it but the dogs love it. Its actually a rarity due to the foul smell.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

partial2poodles;114653 said:


> wal-mart sells tripe in the meat dept....fresh, not frozen. I buy 2-3 at a time. But gag, cough, my house reeks of barn cow shiht. Oh man, nothing worse. my husband leaves, and then comes home in a bad mood, turns on the fans to exhause the air from the house.....we hate cooking it but the dogs love it. Its actually a rarity due to the foul smell.


Partial2Poodles:

I was told not to use the supermarket tripe since it is "bleached".. It takes all the nutrients out of the tripe and leaves it creamy/white, if this is the tripe you give your dogs, save your money (I was told) . I used to purchase supermarket white/bleached/processed tripe and was told to forgo it.

Tripe in it natural color should be green to dark green.

In Canada you can purchase the TRIPETT cans I believe they are Can. made. In the U.S. you can purchase Tripe canned by Solid Gold. 

Dont know if the Canadian Tripette cans sell in the states as well but it is the best, and not as expensive as the Solid gold one. It also smells less putrid than the bleached supermarket tripe.

If you can get to a slaughter house and ask them for the tripe (in its natural color before processing) they may give it to you. This would be the best. Some throw it out and dont bleach/process it for consumers' usage..so if they are throwing it out, ask them to give it to you.


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## kimstm (Jun 24, 2010)

cheryl4237 said:


> I have a question about the "all stages" dog food, like natural balance ect, that say you can feed the same formula from puppy to senior. Is that ok? Or does it have a little too much of something for an adult dog, and a little too little of something for a puppy? It's probably a dumb question, I hope it makes sense.


I think this question was overlooked and I was curious as to the answer also.

Thanks!


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## Noriko Poodles (Jun 20, 2010)

I get my green tripes from
GreenTripe.Com Main Index
This is real stuff from cow's gut, and I weaned past 2 litters with this mixed with puppy gold.
But when I'm out of it, I like Tripet(canned).
I agree with White poodle, Green tripes is one of best food you can give to your dog!

Noriko
Noriko Poodles - home


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Noriko:
Unfortunatley I can not get the "real" tripe here in Montreal. Slaughter houses here do not sell /give it to the general public, at least not the ones I contacted.

The company in CA shipping frozen tripe is great. Do you know if they will ship to Canada or do they only ship in the U.S.


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

whitepoodles: This is where I have gotten my tripe.
The shipping is fantastic, frozen SOLID.

Hare Today, Gone Tommorow


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## Noriko Poodles (Jun 20, 2010)

White Poodles,
My order comes in big frozen roll too, and it comes from Northern.Ca.
I'm not sure if they will ship to Canada,but shipping can be very expensive 
Hope you can get them, really great stuff!


Noriko
Noriko Poodles - home


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Noriko & Taxtell:

Thanks ladies . I will check both and see which company is less expensive.
I can only imagine how expensive it is to ship from California to Canada, also I am worried that they may not ship at all since it is considered meat and I dont believe we are allowed to get meat over the boarder.. I will check and see to 1. make sure I can ship it and 2. the difference in shipping fees from both companies into Canada.
Thanks again very helpful.


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## fracturedcircle (Aug 19, 2010)

i've heard great things about Acana.

something to look into:
The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?
A Second Look at Quality Dog Food -- Reader's Respond - Arlington pet-friendly places | Examiner.com


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

fracturedcircle said:


> i've heard great things about Acana.
> 
> Fracturedcircle:
> 
> Acana is a great food. Not too expensive and has protein % I feel comfortable with.. ( 30%).. I have all my dogs but Cole on Fromm. Cole eats Acana Pacifica (fish based only).


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i use tripe from ....a canaian company... it's canned. one of the pre made raw co's dose frozen tripe


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

NeVar:
I believe you are referring to TRIPETTE.. Is it a dark green can? 
I believe it is the one made in Canada. I love these cans they are the REAL stuff.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Yes that's the brand! stinks to high hell though *L*


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

neVar;115468 said:


> Yes that's the brand! stinks to high hell though *L*


LOL yes, to us it does ,but , to your dog it smells like Chanel No. 5 

just dont leave it in the can.. Take it out of the metal can , put in a glass jar and cover well (otherwise your fridge will smell like a barn). I always have a box of baking soda anyway in my fridge it absorbe all odors and is safe.


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