# should I trust this breeder?



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Too many red flags. You can do better. This appears to be a dog broker. Your friend may have been lucky but it doesn’t appear you will get a dog from the same line of poodles.

Some other posters will help you with help…how to find a breeder, what to look for and some breeders to get you started. 

it helps if you say where you live or what states you are comfortable going to pick up a puppy.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

See if you can obtain the registered names of the sire and dam. Then look up the names on ofa.org. Run away if the breeder can't provide registered names, or if you can't find evidence of testing listed on ofa.org. Also run away if the breeder is registering using the Continental Kennel Club.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

This sounds like a puppy broker. They purchase puppies from puppy mills and sell them as middlemen. Any legitimate breeder should have plenty of photos of parents, their health testing, and their pedigrees for you to see. This puppy likely has no relation to your friend's dog.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I agree that there are a lot of red flags. And what is going on with that puppy's eye?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes, you should be concerned. A quality breeder will always know exactly who the dam and sire are. 

You'd posted about your search a couple of months ago, so I'll post an updated refresher on some criteria for selecting quality, conscientious breeders. 

We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders many of us prefer to support are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from. For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed.

About reviews, a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Read thru any contracts that may be listed. If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years.

Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

There is a lot of different things to keep in mind when finding a breeder. Health tests, socialisation of puppies, titles etc. Which the others have covered. But one of the two of the best advice Ive ever been given which really helped me keep a clear head while looking for a poodle were: 

Dont buy a dog from someone you wouldnt be comfortable giving your dog back to. 

- and 

Its not the last dog/litter on earth. (Meaning dont feel pressured to take on a pup you are uncertain about, its not your only chance to get a dog, there will be others).


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I just wanted to add, good for you for listening to your instincts! If you tell us where you are in the US and how far away you're willing to go to pick up a puppy, someone here may be able to refer you to a responsible breeder.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The other thread is 








Any trustworthy breeder in NJ,NY,PA are?


I’ve been on the hunt for a boy toy poodle pup and would love some guidance on where to look. I tried Craigslist, a bunch of google suggested websites, and AKC breeders (but a lot of them don’t have available puppies now).




www.poodleforum.com





NJ, NY, PA fyi


If a "breeder" always has puppies available, that's a very strong caution flag. 

There are a few larger scale quality breeders that do things right, as described above by the members, but most are simply brokering for mass production puppy businesses. 

Adding the longer criteria list, more of a checklist version

There's some additional info worth reviewing that I don't put in the abbreviated tips.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity, and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing or by breeding from titled parents.
It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search 
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder 
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch 
! health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
this includes genetic testing (genotype DNA)
and
testing done by physical exam (phenotype) (eyes, heart, hips, patellas), some annually 

! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. 
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO 



Living Conditions
! in home with family *
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
! puppies are not sold with full registration (breeding rights) simply for the price of admission.
! do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising/Public Facing Info
! individual online site to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and is very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


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