# Bloat in Klein Poodlels?



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Does anyone know if Klein poodles are as likely to bloat as standards? I just might have the possibility of getting a Klein and was wondering if they have a risk of bloat like standards or if they are more like minis and don't have as high of risk.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I couldn't answer your question either way, but you might want to clarify if it is a real Klein from European lines or if it is one of those US mixes between Mini X Spoo....


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Oh that would probably be helpful. It is a real Klein poodle, from Europen imports. Not at all a US Moyen bred type where they breed minis to standards, etc.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Dogs of all sizes can bloat. For Standards, the fear is bloat with torsion which occurs more often in larger, deep chested dogs. The sample sizes of Poodles in the studies that have been done include only Standard Poodles. In your place I would be more concerned about finding a reputable breeder of Kleins since there are so few, than with gastric torsion.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> Dogs of all sizes can bloat. For Standards, the fear is bloat with torsion which occurs more often in larger, deep chested dogs. The sample sizes of Poodles in the studies that have been done include only Standard Poodles. In your place I would be more concerned about finding a reputable breeder of Kleins since there are so few, than with gastric torsion.



That is true, even toys can bloat!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I've never heard of a Mini bloating with torsion. I would say it's almost impossible. Bowel that doesn't weigh much can't 'flop'. That's why it's only prevalent in LARGE deep chested breeds.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Don't worry guys this breeder comes highly recommended around here and does all of the proper health testing plus some. I don't want to say because it is a small possiblity and I don't want to jinx anything! I feel like I jinxed it already! I'm sure when things get closer to that time I will ask the breeder tons of questions but until then I'm not getting my hopes up. I was just curious about what health ailments effect Klein size vs the mini and standards. Like is Addisons common in Kleins like it is standards? Or is luxating patellas a possibility like in minis?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> I was just curious about what health ailments effect Klein size vs the mini and standards. Like is Addisons common in Kleins like it is standards? Or is luxating patellas a possibility like in minis?


You keep using this word 'Klein'. I call it a Mini. In North America there is no such thing as a Klein. They are exactly like Minis 'cos they are Minis. 

Unless you're in Europe.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> You keep using this word 'Klein'. I call it a Mini. In North America there is no such thing as a Klein. They are exactly like Minis 'cos they are Minis.
> 
> Unless you're in Europe.


CB, I think Poodlecrazy said that the klein poodle was indeed imported from Europe. If it is a klein in Europe it is a klein when it arrives in our country even if the AKC does not recognize that size. And actually, if the klein is over 15", wouldn't that make it a standard by AKC rules?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I take your point... but what confusion! 

If a Tagalog speaker asked you which was better, a Kahel or an Orange, what would you say? Well they're both the same thing really, in different languages.

Klein is the German word for Small. A different language. Mucho confusion! We should maybe stick to English in this forum. No?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Poodlecrazy -- How exciting that you might be getting a klein! A real klein! For those who don't know the klein or moyen poodle is 35 cm to 45 cm (14 to 18 in) according to FCI standards. So that is smaller than most standards that you see in the US/Canada and bigger than most minis). What a great size!

I have not read any studies about bloat in FCI klein/moyen poodles, but I know that bloat is most commonly found in large deep chested dogs. Many people think that bloat is less likely in small standards than it is in larger standards. While I can't point to any statistics or proof, I'm pretty confident that bloat will be less of a problem for kleins than it is for standards. Of course, any dog can bloat, but it is much less likely for smaller dogs.


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## Motion (Oct 27, 2015)

The risk of bloat with torsion can also be reduced by feeding smaller meals and not allowing playtime for an hour after the meal. We had a bloat scare once with our 55lb standard and since then we don't rough house/run up and down the stairs or play catch after dinner. Really we had to move dinner earlier because he gets crazy around 8.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Yes these are true Europen Klein size poodles that have been imported. That is why I'm so confused because everywhere I can see research is done for American sizes, toy, miniature, and standard. There is no info on health ailments or genetic testing for the Klein or Moyen size from Europe. And that's where I'm getting so confused. I thought well wouldn't you just think it's whatever effects standards but then no because standards and Kleins are still different. But which are they more closely compared to Standards or Minis? 

Yes Peppersb, I'm am trying not to get excited because it's such a small possiblity but it's hard not to have even a small amount of excitement. Especially when I see all the cute new puppies on PF!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Motion said:


> The risk of bloat with torsion can also be reduced by feeding smaller meals and not allowing playtime for an hour after the meal. We had a bloat scare once with our 55lb standard and since then we don't rough house/run up and down the stairs or play catch after dinner. Really we had to move dinner earlier because he gets crazy around 8.


It would be nice if this were true. However many dogs experience torsion despite those preventative measures.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

So what's in a name? Now we deal with Klein, Moyen, Royale, Toy, Mini and Standard? 

Or do we pitch Poodlecrazy's crazy breeder and her crazy Kleins off a cliff and get back to English names??? My suspicion is that they're all just a fad... a new imported-from-Europe, slap-a-faddish-name-on-them craze.  

If we're gonna deal in here with Kleins and Moyens, European designations and not American designations, I've changed Tonka's designation in protest. :devil:

So take that!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> So what's in a name? Now we deal with Klein, Moyen, Royale, Toy, Mini and Standard?


You forgot Teacup  

Klein/Moyen is the same animal (14-18 inches) and it is not a fad, having been bred in Europe for a long time.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> You forgot Teacup
> 
> 
> 
> Klein/Moyen is the same animal (14-18 inches) and it is not a fad, having been bred in Europe for a long time.



And he forgot Dwarfs, 11" and under (no toys in Europe either)


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Very exciting that you might possibly, fingers crossed be getting the real deal. The farther you go down in the size scale, the less of a concern bloat with torsion is. Much higher incidence in the giant breeds, like Great Danes. As long as you know the signs, directions to an ER clinic, and keep Gas-x on hand, I wouldn't worry. Hopefully the breeder offers a health guarantee and there is always pet health insurance.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Klein, Moyen and Royale are all Poodles. Toy, Mini and Standard are all Poodles. 

There is no such thing as a *real* Klein... it's a Poodle with a different designation in a different language. Klein is a name that humans have made up. Toy is a name that humans made up. Humans can invent all the names they like for different sizes.

Klein, Moyen and Royale are not accepted here in North America. Except by excited breeders who think they're marketing something different. All they're selling are different sized Poodles. Calling them different, exotic names. 

Just silly and unnecessary...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Klein, Moyen and Royale are all Poodles. Toy, Mini and Standard are all Poodles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you want to go down that road, isn't the entire breed "made up"? We all know how quickly it diverges from the standard with poor breeding. I've never seen any photos of a pack of wild poodles, have you?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I totally agree with you, CB, that people in North America have used those marketing terms erroneously to sell dogs that are standard x mini. But the dog that Poodlecrazy may be getting is from Europe where they have bred the Klein/Moyen for a long time. 

This reminds me of like the Australian Labradoodle, which was created in Australia from many breeds that were bred for many generations until a breed formed, and then Americans caught hold of the craze and started breeding Labs x poodles, called it a Labradoodle, and charged far more than either a Lab or a poodle from a show breeder would cost. Or warmblood horses, so carefully perfected in Europe, and people in America breed a Thoroughbred (hot blood) x a draft breed (cold blood) and call it a warmblood. That never comes out well and is just lazy, lazy.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Aw, ya know what? Y'all are all my friends... 'specially the OP... so I hope nobody feels like my ARRRRRRGH! is directed at them. And yes, I know that Kleins have been breed to true *European* specifics. 

But this forum would and has condemned breeders that breed 'Royales'... yet you laud one breeding Kleins.  

It's no wonder Poodleisgoingcrazy trying to compare different dogs, they're the same dog. Confusion!... to be avoided, IMO. 

And yes... I didn't include Teacups. That's another loaded word in here! lol


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> But this forum would and has condemned breeders that breed 'Royales'... yet you laud one breeding Kleins.


Klein is a size that is recognized by the FCI. Royale is not recognized by any reputable kennel club. So I completely disagree with the implication that both belong in the same category. 

I would absolutely laud a breeder who was breeding kleins, especially kleins that are bred from real kleins that come from FCI countries. This is a size that has been bred in Europe and other FCI countries and it is a fabulous size for a pet. I would condemn breeders that try to breed very large poodles (royales) or very small poodles (teacups) because I think that there are health problems with these sizes. Interestingly, the FCI has a maximum size for standard poodles -- probably not a bad idea.

Here is more info on the FCI sizes:

The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) is an international federation of kennel clubs based in Belgium with 86 member countries. Its breed standard defines four sizes of poodles, and establishes a maximum size for the standard poodle. The four sizes are: toys 24 to 28 cm (9.4 to 11 inches), miniatures are over 28 to 35 cm (11 to 14 inches), mediums (or moyen or klein) are over 35 cm to 45 cm (14 to 18 in) and a Standard is over 45 cm to 60 cm with a tolerance of +2cm. (18 to 23.6 in or an absolute maximum of 24.4 in with the 2 cm tolerance).


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Very interesting to see they put a size limit on both ends of the spectrum. The smallest a poodle can be and the largest a poodle can be. Would do America well to pick up on that. 
CB my point is that even though they are the same thing essentially they are still different. Such as a Toy and a Standard. When a breeder would do genetic testing on a toy they would check eyes and patellas right? But if you were to do that on a standard it would be silly because they don't suffer from Luxating Patellas the way that toys do. Or turn it around would a breeder test a toy for Sebaceous Adentitis? No because it is a disease seen only in Standards. So even though they are the same they are still different.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Very interesting to see they put a size limit on both ends of the spectrum. The smallest a poodle can be and the largest a poodle can be. Would do America well to pick up on that.


Yes -- and it is interesting to see that those size limits would eliminate quite a few US poodles at both ends of the spectrum. In the US, there a lots of toys that are less than 9.4 inches and lots of standards that are more than 24.4 inches.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I wonder if there is a Poodle Club of Europe? I like the recommended health tests by size that the PCA lists on their web site.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Klein is a size that is recognized by the FCI. Royale is not recognized by any reputable kennel club. So I completely disagree with the implication that both belong in the same category.
> 
> The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) is an international federation of kennel clubs based in Belgium with 86 member countries. Its breed standard defines four sizes of poodles, and establishes a maximum size for the standard poodle. The four sizes are: toys 24 to 28 cm (9.4 to 11 inches), miniatures are over 28 to 35 cm (11 to 14 inches), mediums (or moyen or klein) are over 35 cm to 45 cm (14 to 18 in) and a Standard is over 45 cm to 60 cm with a tolerance of +2cm. (18 to 23.6 in or an absolute maximum of 24.4 in with the 2 cm tolerance).


Thanks... I didn't know that. But you can bet that in PQ, Tonka is a Caniche Royale. Everywhere we go.  

I tend to react when a friend is confused over semantics. When I'm getting older, and when a Moyen (Medium) and Klein (Small) are the same. and I'm getting older, and poor Tonka now doesn't even qualify as Standard, and I'm getting more confused...

Is that an AKC Standard, or an FCI Standard....

Hmmmm.... no foolin'...


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## SuzLesterBeach (Oct 21, 2021)

Countryboy said:


> You keep using this word 'Klein'. I call it a Mini. In North America there is no such thing as a Klein. They are exactly like Minis 'cos they are Minis.
> 
> Unless you're in Europe.


In Germany, they are referred to as Klein Poodle and is a distinct 4th size between Miniature and Standard Poodles. In France they are referred to as Moyen, same, a distinct 4th size, which is not a breed where a Standard Poodle is crossed with a Miniature Poodle. In Canada we hear Moyen or Klein. In North America commonly referred to as a Medium Poodle. If you are searching for a "Moyen" or "Klein" generally it will have to come from German Stock to be sure. I'd start contacting a breeder in Germany for their Klein lines and see who they have worked with in your country. Otherwise you are purchasing a Standard/Miniature cross poodle. CKC and AKC only acknowledges 3 sizes of Poodles Toy, Miniature, and Standard.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Good explanation, SuzLesterBeach! 
This is an older thread, and it's been four years or so since the original poster has logged into the forum. I'm locking the thread before anyone goes down the rabbit hole of finding German moyen breeders for her. Feel free to hop over to the Introduction section to tell us about your poodles.


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