# Breeders recommended by the PCA?



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Not all breeders have a big web presence. Especially show breeders that only breed occasionally. Often they only need word of mouth to fill waitlists. You should still be able to get info from them on health testing and be able to look up their dogs on OFA. Recommendation from PCA is good but you should still check to make sure they haven't lapsed on quality and they are a good match for you. They may also have more of a Facebook presence. Small breeders are often like that.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I don't rely on business reviews from Yelp, Google, and Facebook when it comes to poodle breeders.

First, most good breeders are small scale. An ethical toy breeder with three bitches is going to be offering less than 10 puppies a year. That's not a lot of customers, and generally only a small proportion of customers ever post reviews. It wouldn't be strange if this toy breeder only got a single review in a three year period.

Second, the people writing reviews don't always know much about evaluating breeders. "My puppy is so cute and my daughter loves him," tells me exactly nothing about whether I want to do business with that breeder.

Third, it's pretty easy to organize a brigade of friends to skew reviews. Any time I see a breeder with a lot of reviews I wonder whether the reviews are truly spontaneous.

I might glance at the reviews to see if there's anything that raises questions. I would certainly prick up my ears if someone mentioned merle or doodle breeding, for example. However, I'm not going to write off a breeder because someone vented on Yelp about not getting the red toy female puppy they wanted for Xmas.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

The PCA breeders list is certainly a good place to start, and for some breeders, that may be pretty much their only online presence. That said, not all good breeders are on the PCA list, and I also wouldn't accept the PCA list as the last word on a breeder's ethics lining up with yours. 

As far as online reviews go, I've seen glowing, gushing reviews for people I wouldn't get a dog from if they paid me. On the other hand, I've also seen scathing reviews of good breeders who refused to sell a puppy to someone for whatever reason.


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## tennysonsmom (Sep 29, 2021)

The breeders PCA would be recommending are all established kennels breeding show dogs. Most of them have been breeding and showing for decades and the reason they don’t have an online presence is because they’re older and/or they don’t need to. At minimum they should be adhering to the PCA’s code of ethics if they’re club members so I would read through that if you haven’t already. That being said, a reputable breeder means something different to everyone and it’s important that you know what your priorities are so you can ask the right questions. Are you looking for a show prospect or just a companion? If I personally was looking for a companion puppy from a breeder who is a PCA member I would prioritize temperament (there’s more than one way to have a good temperament. I prefer gentle and laidback to friendly and playful for example), a genetic health guarantee I’m happy with, and I would make sure puppies are being raised underfoot in a home environment and being well socialized (someone doing an ENS protocol would be great) and then everything else I would leave up to the breeder and assume they know what they’re doing better than I do. 🤷🏼‍♀️ If you’re looking for a show prospect that’s a different story. Pretty much everyone is active on Facebook so that’s somewhere to start.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Keep in mind that while we try to breed show dogs, only a small percentage are likely to be really great show prospects. That said, someone who breeds for show is much more likely to really know what they are doing! Besides having excellent conformation, a show dog must have superb temperament to withstand the stresses of dog shows. So the bottom line is that people who breed for show (or for dog sports such as agility or obedience) are far more likely to have dogs who not only are physically sound but also are more likely to be free of hereditary disease conditions and to have sound temperament.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You'll find the PCA Code of Ethics here if you haven't already.
Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America

Whether a PCA member breeder or not, these are the criteria I look for in any breeder. Some may be slightly flexible for me personally, most not. 

If I'm not getting the quality breeder investment in their dogs, I surely wouldn't pay quality breeder prices. 

You'll notice that genetic testing is only a part of the picture. Most of the PCA recommended testing is phenotype testing with a small portion of genetic testing. The DNA panels are very helpful as companion testing to the recommended testing.


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## tennysonsmom (Sep 29, 2021)

I just posted another response and then saw your post edit and I think I had answered a different question than the one you were really asking so this is my edited answer. Is there a specific puppy with teeth problems that you’re asking about or just more generally asking if it’s okay to buy a puppy from a show breeder that isn’t a show prospect? The answer to the first question is it depends on what the teeth issue is and how severe. The answer to the second is most people are buying pet puppies from show breeders. A breeder I would consider reputable is very particular about which puppies are being chosen as show prospects and who they’re being sold to and so is selling most of their puppies on a spay/neuter contract. Even experienced show breeders can sometimes end up with serious faults but they should be upfront about what faults a specific puppy has. Can I ask what part of the country you’re in and what specific kennels you’re considering?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My boy is a show fail, as in he is too tall. Leonard is gorgeous, well built and a wonderful temperament, he is the healthiest poodle I have ever owned. As for taking another puppy that didn't pass show muster I would do it in a heart beat.








Leonard in white and Pia not so well bred in silver


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

tennysonsmom said:


> I just posted another response and then saw your post edit and I think I had answered a different question than the one you were really asking so this is my edited answer. Is there a specific puppy with teeth problems that you’re asking about or just more generally asking if it’s okay to buy a puppy from a show breeder that isn’t a show prospect? The answer to the first question is it depends on what the teeth issue is and how severe. The answer to the second is most people are buying pet puppies from show breeders. A breeder I would consider reputable is very particular about which puppies are being chosen as show prospects and who they’re being sold to and so is selling most of their puppies on a spay/neuter contract. Even experienced show breeders can sometimes end up with serious faults but they should be upfront about what faults a specific puppy has. Can I ask what part of the country you’re in and what specific kennels you’re considering?


I just had more questions, so I edited my original post. Thanks for being patient with my questions, lol.

At this point, I may consider to take a pup with teeth problem in the near future - and this is my second time experiencing this (I passed on the previous one for personal reasons). I'm based in DMV, and I only follow up with a few good breeders in my area within 5 hrs driving, and of course, I don't have too many options. Honestly, I don't really care about appearance or minor faults. My biggest concerns are whether the breeder does all necessary tests and whether the breeder is experienced (so that she or he knows what they're trying to breed, instead of just making dogs for sale). All of the breeders I'm in contact with do tests and are VERY experienced. I trust them regarding the dog's temperament and other things. I'm also open to different characters, such as either being quiet or active, playful or not, as long as the pup is healthy. 

I did missed chances when I could get a puppy but ended up moving forward due to personal reasons. However, I'm getting really tired of this whole searching process - we have been searing for more than 2 years. That's why I start to wonder if it still worth waiting (for an unknown length), or just take the next available puppy with minor faults. I know sometimes the underbite/overbite may cause other health issues as the pup grows up (I guess the potential health issues cause by teeth are my biggest worry). However, even if I wait and get a puppy from one of these breeders, it does not guarantee that the puppy would not have teeth problems later. 

Hopefully all of these make sense to you, but we've been struggling for a while, lol. I know that me and my family will be the person who make the final decision, but would like to hear more opinions before the determination is determined.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Did I miss which variety you're looking for?


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Did I miss which variety you're looking for?


no, you did not, I forgot to mention - we're looking for a mini.


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

twyla said:


> My boy is a show fail, as in he is too tall. Leonard is gorgeous, well built and a wonderful temperament, he is the healthiest poodle I have ever owned. As for taking another puppy that didn't pass show muster I would do it in a heart beat.
> View attachment 483565
> 
> Leonard in white and Pia not so well bred in silver


Thanks for sharing, and your babies are absolutely beautiful and adorable!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Miniatures seem to be the hardest to find. I'm sure this isn't all the possible kennels to consider but they're all I can come up with for now.

Have you contacted Apiele in Delaware, Rembrandt in Ma, or Songbird in Ct?

If you can stretch your radius to NJ/NY off the top of my head, we have Eriand mpoos.

Further north is Lavandaire in NH, (Yes, they push a supplement and a specific food but so long as they don't require either per contract, just focus on the breeder.)

To the south if you can stretch to NC, there's Classic/Eaglehill-South, in SC there's Shiann (also a PF member fyi).

Several of our current members have an mpoo from or would personally recommend some of these breeders. Others have positive comments from members in the past.

Any of these which have websites that list the poodle's registered name is a bonus for a couple of reasons.

First is that you can go to the OFA site, enter that name and see the health testing.

The second is that in many cases you'll see other breeders names in the registered name. (You'll see that also on the OFA site.)

That means that these two breeders thought highly enough of the other's poodles to want to add those genes to their kennel by keeping the show potential puppies. That's not just to win ribbons and bragging rights but to keep the poodle breed sound for the future.

We, the seekers of companions get the pups who might have a show fault, but who have received all the same thought, care and love as the ones who will carry the poodle torch for the future.

Have you had any more follow up with or from your original picks that you posted here?


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## tennysonsmom (Sep 29, 2021)

power puff pups said:


> I just had more questions, so I edited my original post. Thanks for being patient with my questions, lol.
> 
> At this point, I may consider to take a pup with teeth problem in the near future - and this is my second time experiencing this (I passed on the previous one for personal reasons). I'm based in DMV, and I only follow up with a few good breeders in my area within 5 hrs driving, and of course, I don't have too many options. Honestly, I don't really care about appearance or minor faults. My biggest concerns are whether the breeder does all necessary tests and whether the breeder is experienced (so that she or he knows what they're trying to breed, instead of just making dogs for sale). All of the breeders I'm in contact with do tests and are VERY experienced. I trust them regarding the dog's temperament and other things. I'm also open to different characters, such as either being quiet or active, playful or not, as long as the pup is healthy.
> 
> ...


A bite that isn’t perfect isn’t the end of the world, and something that isn’t super serious for a pet could keep a puppy from being shown. If it’s bad enough when the adult canines come in they might have to be extracted and that can be expensive and I would personally be hesitant to pay too much for a puppy who was extremely overshot or undershot. If I was happy with everything else and I couldn’t find something better I would consider it but I would want to know what a vet had said.


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Miniatures seem to be the hardest to find. I'm sure this isn't all the possible kennels to consider but they're all I can come up with for now.
> 
> Have you contacted Apiele in Delaware, Rembrandt in Ma, or Songbird in Ct?
> 
> ...


I did not contact any of the breeders you mentioned here, cause they were not in my search radiation. I really appreciate the information and will reach out to them! 

I've been following up with my picks posted here - the breeders will have litters later this year/early next year, and asked me to call back at certain time points - but I still doubt if I would be able to get one, as I said, it is quite difficult for some reasons (actually I always called back as they asked, but when I called back, the pups were already sold/spoken...and they would ask me to call back again). Also, we do require gender which makes it even harder. 

And please don't take me wrong, I don't blame these breeders at all, I totally understand why they do that and have no problem with such procedures. But I think it may be the time to try something else. That's why I reached out to PCA for more referrals, and start to consider an older puppy with show faults.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

power puff pups said:


> That's why I reached out to PCA for more referrals, and start to consider an older puppy with show faults.


I think you are using the best approach. Incidentally - it is very, very rare for an incorrect bite (overshot or undershot) to be so extreme as to be a health concern. The requirement for show dogs to have perfect bites is part of trying to breed dogs who are as correct in all aspects as possible so that little defects do not eventually become widespread big problems. An example is that many years ago almost all miniature poodles had very flat, thin feet. Careful breeding away from that problem has had the result that you rarely see a mini poodle with fault any more.


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I think you are using the best approach. Incidentally - it is very, very rare for an incorrect bite (overshot or undershot) to be so extreme as to be a health concern. The requirement for show dogs to have perfect bites is part of trying to breed dogs who are as correct in all aspects as possible so that little defects do not eventually become widespread big problems. An example is that many years ago almost all miniature poodles had very flat, thin feet. Careful breeding away from that problem has had the result that you rarely see a mini poodle with fault any more.


Thanks for sharing this info! All we ask for is a healthy and well breed dog from a trustworthy breeder. As long as that the potential fault would not result in severe health concern, we are fine with whatever it is.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

If you might consider an older puppy, our mpoo girls came to us at almost 2 years old, from a breeder who was changing her breeding program.

They were with us til just short of their16th birthday. We lost Noel to CHF and 3 months later we lost Holly to cancer.

The bond and the love between us all then is indistinguishable from our current mpoo boys. The difference is that we don't have the puppy memories of the girls, , but we also didn't have the loss of sanity that puppies bring at times . We were actually looking for an older mpoo girl pup or even a young adult girl when we got our boys (a story for another thread).

Holly and Noel on their first day with us


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## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> The bond and the love between us all then is indistinguishable from our current mpoo boys. The difference is that we don't have the puppy memories of the girls, , but we also didn't have the loss of sanity that puppies bring at times .


Holly and Noel were really beautiful! (I'm sorry for your loss!)

Actually at the very beginning, we were looking for retired adults or other adults for adoption. It was even harder to find a fit so we turned to young puppies lol.


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## Kait (May 6, 2021)

My Tuck is a former show prospect who got bumped from the show pool when it became too likely he’d go oversized for a mini (and his breeder was right).

He does also have a base narrow tooth issue, but that wasn’t evident when his breeder sold him to me, I have the vet records showing their dental exam was normal. Either way, that’s the not end of the world and I wouldn’t hesitate to go with a show prospect who didn’t quite make the cut again.


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