# In search of reputable Moyen breeders in the Northeast



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Moyens are difficult, as they are not a size recognized in the US or Canada. The term itself tends to be a bit of a lightning rod, as there was a bit of a fad for that size a decade or two ago, kind of like doodles now. There are generally three ways breeders on this side of the Atlantic produce Moyens: 1) Import breeding stock from Europe 2) Cross Standards with Minis and hope you get something mid-sized. This is a controversial practice. 3) Work with a line of Minis or Standards that happens to produce dogs that end up Moyen sized. It's more common for Minis to go oversized than for Standards to go small. A top notch Standard breeder will often have dogs under 24" and under 50 lbs, but under 21" and under 35 lbs is more rare.

As for finding a Moyen in New England, 1) Alas, I don't know of anyone in New England currently working with European Moyen lines. 2) I am aware of only a single New England breeder that was doing intervarietal crosses. The breeder is controversial for several reasons beyond mixing types. I wouldn't feel comfortable recommending them. 3) If you want to stay in New England, and you are ok with a dog that might end up a little smaller, there are several reputable Miniature breeders in New England. They include Lavendaire (NH), Songbird (CT), and Madela (CT). 

Outside of New England, there are a few breeders worth checking out. My list would include Moonrise, in South Carolina, Noir, in Missouri, and Karbit, in Texas.


----------



## KBrady (Nov 8, 2021)

Thanks for your reply cowpony! I was thinking New England area so that our family could meet the puppies. I’ve never owed a dog before but my husband had several dogs growing up and has always been fond of the poodle although he has never had one. We have two children (6 and 8 years old) and I’d love to see which pups they would match well with. Maybe I’m looking for too much with a meeting given the demand for puppies right now. I’ll check out all of your recommendations. Thanks again for your help!


----------



## KBrady (Nov 8, 2021)

I should have added that we’d go bigger (35-45 lbs) rather than smaller since my husband prefers a larger dog.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Definitely more options for standards. Another board member had a very good experience with Wool n Wind in Connecticut: the litter got temperament testing and a lot of socialization. The list of Standard breeders who belong to the Poodle Club of Massachusetts is a good place to look as well. Poodle Club of Massachusetts


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is not really hard to find standards that aren't giants. My spoo girl is 37 pounds and 22 3/4 at the withers. My spoo boy is 24" and about 52-55 pounds. I think they are perfect at the sizes they are,


----------



## KBrady (Nov 8, 2021)

Thanks cowpony and lily cd re. Sounds like what would work for us is a small standard because we’re not looking specifically for a European Moyen. I didn’t have all the details on what a Moyen is. Thanks for the expert advice.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

KBrady said:


> Thanks cowpony and lily cd re. Sounds like what would work for us is a small standard because we’re not looking specifically for a European Moyen. I didn’t have all the details on what a Moyen is. Thanks for the expert advice.


I indeed have high praises for Wool 'n Wind Standard Poodles. My Elroy is from there, although he is not a small spoo. Donna (breeder at WNW) expected Elroy to be 50-55 lbs, but it seems he's on track for around 65 lbs so there's always a gamble with spoo sizes. She currently has puppies but odds are they're all spoken for. Female standards are smaller than males. Probably on average close to 10 pounds smaller. Your size needs may be better met by female Spoo's.


----------



## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

You can't always perfectly predict size, that's for sure! Dublin is very petite at only 42 pounds. His parents were in the 55 pound range. His mom had complications during birth that resulted in a c-section and lost puppies, so we think MAYBE something happened there that may have affected his growth. There is nothing medically wrong with him, he eats fine and has no health issues, he's just.... small. I believe his two surviving brothers are as well. Height wise i think he's about average? 

Limerick on the other hand is already 35 pounds and isn't even 6 months old yet. Dublin didn't hit 35 pounds until i believe he was almost a year? He hit 40 pounds after a year and a half. They aren't related, or even from the same breeder (though Lim's breeder does own Dub's daddy), but i think it's just funny that Lim is almost the same height/weight as his brother at not-quite six months lol.

If you don't want to chance a 65 pound Spoo you could always look for breeders who are sticking to breeding smaller dogs. They may not be able to 100% guarantee anything but if they're consistently producing puppies that mature to be around 50 pounds then you'll have a better chance at a more "medium" sized dog. A female will likely wind up smaller than a male, too.


----------



## ctviggen (6 mo ago)

I know this is an old thread, but I'm also looking (in the somewhat near future, say Spring 2023) for a "moyen" sized poodle. Would prefer around 30-35 pounds -- big enough to go jogging with me, but small enough for me and other family members to pick up. The poodle club of Massachusetts has no litters on its page. The Wool 'n Wind website hasn't been updated in over a year. 

Anyone have any other suggestions?

I am in CT, so can make it to some parts of Canada if required. Though I would prefer to drive to get a puppy, which means (for me) an 8 hour drive (one way) or less. Basically, one day to get there, stay overnight, one day to get back.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

ctviggen said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I'm also looking (in the somewhat near future, say Spring 2023) for a "moyen" sized poodle. Would prefer around 30-35 pounds -- big enough to go jogging with me, but small enough for me and other family members to pick up. The poodle club of Massachusetts has no litters on its page. The Wool 'n Wind website hasn't been updated in over a year.
> 
> Anyone have any other suggestions?
> 
> I am in CT, so can make it to some parts of Canada if required. Though I would prefer to drive to get a puppy, which means (for me) an 8 hour drive (one way) or less. Basically, one day to get there, stay overnight, one day to get back.


The only breeder working within that size range I would really consider at this time is Moonrise: MOYEN POODLES They’re located in South Carolina, so a bit of a hike for you. But they’re my first choice for our next poodle.

As far as websites go... Don’t get too hung up on slick marketing. A breeder’s website is unlikely to be their first priority. Use whatever information they’ve got on their contact page and reach out.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You've mentioned to 30-35lb range as the upper limit for portability and thinking that 20lb is too low for your jogging activity. 

If you give some definition of that activity, how far, how often, weather, terrain, etc,, we might be able to discuss the possibility of a miniature, especially if it's a breeder going for the upper limit of the breed standard.

That's where the oversize miniature, which is truly more the medium range you're looking for, comes in. It's far less likely that a miniature, even oversize, will exceed the portability requirement, where "small" standards or any intervariety breeding more likely will.

Your search should focus on the breeders, rather than when puppies might be available. The size you're shooting for is a unicorn in the poodle world. 

You may have seen this elsewhere but I'll add it here. 
The first is tips on researching and selecting quality, conscientious breeders. It can be helpful as a reminder if you've recently gone thru this and especially if this is new to you or has been some years. Things have changed.

The second is a compilation of breeders recommended by members thru the years and then vetted for at least minimal health testing, which is itself a minimum requirement to be considered a conscientious breeder.

You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

A quality breeder isn't location dependent. Their characteristics are the same everywhere.


We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that quality, conscientious breeders are always breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us 

.
Outside of covid, these breeders will almost always welcome, even encourage, home visits to see the puppies and dam in person, and see how they live.

It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

About reviews,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pup's life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


Doing the PCA recommended health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA
• Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
• Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
• Patellar Luxation
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)
• Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
• Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
• Patellar Luxation
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
• Hip Dysplasia (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle
• Hip Dysplasia (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
• Eye Examination
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
• Health Elective (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Read thru any contracts that may be listed.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
For example, some breeders require that a specific food be bought and fed, often thru them, or the health warranty is curtailed or voided entirely.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

Gender preferences will also limit your options.

Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

When looking at online sites, it's not just what you see, it's often what you don't see that's most important.
Is the dam (and sire) also listed on the site, with full registry name and OFA testing?

One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 


My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship lines" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.

----

A quality conscientious breeder doesn't have to be a PCA member to follow the Code of Ethics. I believe that every breeder should.
Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...


----------



## ctviggen (6 mo ago)

Thank you both. I know I have the Moonrise site bookmarked somewhere, but I'll check it out again.

I am only jogging a 5k (3.3 miles according to my GPS) twice a week, so it's not huge (do body weight "lifting" 2 times a week also). And I know that this will take 6-10 months after I get a puppy, as their bones won't be fully formed until then. And I do different aerobics during the winter, if the roads have snow on them. Even the park where I jog at times does not plow their paths, which means my jogging outdoors can be limited depending on weather.

The 35 pound limit is more my wife's than mine. 

We have a 4.5 acre "horse property" (no horses though), so can walk quite a bit too while the dog is younger. And we are 0.4 miles from the main road, on a cul-de-sac, so walking and even beginning jogging shouldn't be a problem. 

As for mini versus "standard", my wife I'm sure would love smaller. But I'd like somewhat bigger, thus the (non-existent in the US) "moyen" recommendation.

I do not need a show dog. I prefer personality/temperament over color or anything else. Plan to get canine good citizen with the dog, and rally looks like fun. In short, a dog that can go out for a run but doesn't need to constantly run, and can be mellow enough to pass canine good citizen tests.


----------



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

For that amount of forced exercise to be safe, you'll want to wait longer than six to ten months, although a Miniature's growth plates may be likely to close sooner than 24 months.

Health and structure ought to be top of a priority list to avoid running a dog who gets injured or runs in pain. That is a big reason to go with a reputable breeder who has success in the show ring; structure and temperament are measured through that, and of course the full complement of necessary testing 😊.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I think you're going to get more exposure and even more responses if you start your own thread in this same forum section. Maybe title it with "jogging" and "variety" as some keywords. That or something like might spark things for you.



ctviggen said:


> I am only jogging a 5k (3.3 miles according to my GPS) twice a week, so it's not huge (do body weight "lifting" 2 times a week also). And I know that this will take 6-10 months after I get a puppy, as their bones won't be fully formed until then. And I do different aerobics during the winter, if the roads have snow on them. Even the park where I jog at times does not plow their paths, which means my jogging outdoors can be limited depending on weather.


It's actually going to be longer, and even longer the larger you go in size.
For physical reasons alone:
APPROPRIATE EXERCISE – PUPPY CULTURE (shoppuppyculture.com)
Exercise Guidelines for Puppies (By Puppy Culture) – Inugami – Finnish Spitz



ctviggen said:


> I do not need a show dog. I prefer personality/temperament over color or anything else. Plan to get canine good citizen with the dog, and rally looks like fun. In short, a dog that can go out for a run but doesn't need to constantly run, and can be mellow enough to pass canine good citizen tests.


There is a pervasive misconception that breeders who show aren't a primary and the best source for pet puppies too.
Consider what it takes to make a winner in the conformation ring. They need to look like a poodle, move like a poodle, be healthy, be confident, friendly (at least receptive), calm, intelligent, just overall a sound dog.

This is exactly what you want in a dog, so don't you and the pup deserve the best beginning? "Showing" is the way breeders prove their dogs are sound.

Breeders that don't, don't have the checks and balances that are inherent in showing. They're also less likely to do the proper health testing, less likely to care about temperament, less likely to care about the future of the breed, and more likely to be interested in the income the dogs bring to them.

I promise, they aren't born like this 











farleysd said:


> When evaluating a dog for breeding I reference an equilateral triangle,,,,,, all three sides of this decision must be equal, the three sides are * health *temperament * conformation. Each are equally important:
> 
> Health -- I want a healthy dog in my life, I want my dog to live a long, happy, and carefree life. (Testing is important)
> Temperament -- My dog will live in my house with me and my family, I must have a good dog that I never worry will be disruptive in any manner. (Temperament testing is important)
> ...


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thinking of your interest in jogging and participating in physical activities, look for breeders who're competing in performance activities. This link shows the many types.
Versatile Poodles - Versatility In Poodles, Inc. : Versatility In Poodles, Inc. (vipoodle.org)

All that was mentioned in the previous posts about breeders applies but they're also breeding with an eye to performance.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For a little athlete, I would look into Safranne in Minnesota: Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN


----------



## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

I was also looking for a Moyen. I never found a “moyen size” breeder with a robust health testing program and I wasn’t interested in an inter varietal cross. I found some good breeders specializing in smaller conforming standards. Also as others have noted, miniature breeders usually shoot for the upper height range so they often end up with over sized minis.

Good luck to you in your search!


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

AKC miniature poodles (10”-15”) are “moyen” sized. Moyen is medium in French. The FCI standard for Medium Poodles is 35 cm (13.7 inches) to 45 cm (17.7 inches). I too would look for a performance breeder of miniature poodles and let them know you’re looking for an oversized dog.


----------

