# Question: Using Color Dyes for Black Poodles



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I haven’t tried them, but the reviews on the Chris Christensen’s Black on Black Shampoo and Black Mask are pretty good.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Bella’s color change sounds very interesting. Is there any chance that she has phantom markings/pattern, as the color changes sound like they are kind of appearing in the phantom pattern. Blues definitely sometimes look brown through coat change though so maybe she is just blue and going through the change. I have a small amount of experience with dying (but not on a black dog.) but I think it would be cute if you want to try. I have used manic panic which I would not recommend for a black dog, as the color is too light. I would get some bottles of avatar funky fruit colors if you want to do a color as they are pet safe and brilliant colors. For black I have heard the best reviews for the brand bigen. Post some before and after pics. I’m interested to see what she looks like now, and I’m sure others are who have blue puppies that haven’t yet cleared.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Bella’s color change sounds very interesting. Is there any chance that she has phantom markings/pattern, as the color changes sound like they are kind of appearing in the phantom pattern...


That's a thought that's crossed my mind too, and yes, it's plausible that the black could have masked phantom genes (the eyebrows remind me of this), but it's just too early for me to tell. 

Thanks Chinchillafuzzy and Mfmst for those recommendations, I will look into them. I'm also kicking around the idea of taking her to Sachii's groomer but not sure if they do color dyes or how much they'd charge, or if they could stand dealing with her hysterics getting clipped evenly especially her feet.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I used to use Clairol on black show poodles who had sun-bleached coats. It was really a pain to do. I would not consider it for a dog who was not being shown in conformation - and maybe not for a show dog, either! 

I use Black On Black when I shampoo Zoe because she does get sun bleached a bit (hard to avoid at high altitude). I think it does help a bit. I also use Chris Christensen's Ice on Ice as a grooming spray because it has a UV protectant.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Yes it sounds like if she is phantom that it is very faint or almost like her color is fading into phantom which sounds very interesting to me. Does she have the markings on her legs or chest (think of Doberman markings)? The nice thing about doing a toy is that it will be much cheaper, as they will need a lot less dye. You do have to let the dye sit on the dog while it sets though. I find it fun to experiment with dye but it’s definitely not for everyone. Keep us posted if you decide to try it.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

There is a group called 'I <3 Colorful Dogs' on FB. A really nice group of people who can advise you on dying your dogs coat.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Shocker*

This is Bella and Sachii from last weekend. You can't see her color changes as well from a distance. 

​
So yesterday, with hesitation over how she would behave, I took Bella to Sachii's grooming salon for a shorter and neater clip than what can do and she was actually manageable. 

I needed to see in more detail her recent color changes especially noticeable in the past month. 

The change is amazing to me. I got a good shot of Bella today when the light was just right to show the color change, particularly in her face. 

​
As the black parts fade, it looks like she might have the phantom color gene that can now express itself. Initially I had planned on using color dye for what these stray hairs that initially looked white but are brown (so far), but I love the eyebrows in particular. I'm curious how the color pattern will progress by the end of the year and will wait before deciding whether to dye her chest or legs.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

When I dye my own hair, I always end up ruining a towel or doorframe or a spot on the floor, no matter how careful I am. How are you doing this with a dog without needing a full bathroom renovation afterwards? ?


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Aww I think she is looking great! That is a good picture.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Lucky you, I think phantom markings on a poodle is so cute. I hope you aren’t considering dying her black to mask that adorable face. 

Didn’t your breeder tell you that Bella could be a phantom?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

After seeing the close up, I can see the eyebrow change in the longer shot. I'll be so excited to see how she's going to change over time .


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I wouldn't change a thing. I think she's beautiful with a little variation in color. It makes her unique, interesting. But if you decide to dye her, I'd wait and see what happens after she's all done changing.

Maurice almost made phantom. lol. He has silver hair on the insides of his legs, a little bit on his chest, his throat and when his face is freshly shaven, silvery...pretty subtle, (like his breeder described his personality) the markings aren't crystal clear but nevertheless, I love it.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Thanks, everyone, and I too love her little face, especially her eyebrows. So much more expressive.

I dug out my notes on her DNA Color Coat Results that I had done last year, and it's unlikely she will develop into a full phantom. 




> at/at genes:
> 
> This dog carries two copies of at which results in tan points and can also present as a black and tan or tricolor coat color. However, this dog's coat color is also dependent on the E, K, and B genes. The tan point coat color is only expressed if the dog is also E/E or E/e at the E locus and ky/ky at the K locus. This dog will pass on at to 100% of its offspring. https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/panels/details/140/?breed=18
> 
> "Phantom" is the term used in smaller poodles to describe the black-and-tan pattern common in many other breeds. Phantom poodles must have a ky/ky genotype plus an E or EM, and also be at/at. This particular dog has an EM allele based on the back on its muzzle. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html


Notice that both say phantoms must have a ky/ky genotype. She has kB/ky:



> KB/ky
> 
> KB Locus (DNA marker – G23del)
> The is responsible for allowing solid colors to be expressed in the dominant form of the allele (KB). In it’s homozygous recessive form (ky) allows the agouti (a, ay, at loci) colors to be expressed. KBky – 1 copy of the dominant allele and 1 copy of the wild type.
> ...


My guess is the wild card is the mystery fading gene that causes some black poodles to get white hairs or turn bluish or steel grey-black over time. I'm wondering if this, instead, paves the way for her hidden tan points to be expressed.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Very cute pic showing her coloring. It does look like possibly very faint phantom markings.

“However, this dog’s coat color is also dependent on its genotypes at the E and B genes.” 

This quote in what you posted stood out to me, do you know what her E and B genes are? I don’t know enough about phantoms but I know they can pop up in lines where they aren’t expected.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Yes, she's Ee (carrier of white/apricots/reds), and BB (not a carrier of brown).


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