# Vaccination and Titer Debate



## littlestitches (Dec 28, 2009)

Does the titer measure the amount of immunity the dog has against a particular disease? Can it be done with the annual blood work?

Paula


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Here's a website that explains it much better than I ever could: 

Titers and Canine Vaccination Decisions


> What Is a Titer Test?
> 
> A "titer" is a measurement of how much antibody to a certain virus (or other antigen) is circulating in the blood at that moment. Titers are usually expressed in a ratio, which is how many times they could dilute the blood before they couldn't find antibodies anymore. If the lab was able to dilute it two times, and then didn't find any more antibodies, that would be expressed as a titer of 1:2. If they could dilute it a thousand times before they couldn't find any antibodies, that would be a titer of 1:1000.
> 
> ...


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

I agree with you that I think that dogs only need the initial shots.
I also live in a high Lyme area, but I do not vaccinate for Lyme anymore. Foxxy tested positive for the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi, while on the Lyme vaccine, so no thanks.
I am fortunate to have a vet that listens to me 

I think titering yearly is overkill.
Is the $ 60.00 for both Parvo and Distemper ? If so that is a good price, many vets will charge well over $ 100.00. 

I titered both Foxxy (6 years) and Baldr ( 3 1/2 years) this year, they were both well protected.

Baldr had only the initial puppy vaccines, all single antigen all 2 weeks apart and Rabies after 6 months, he did get his Rabies booster at a year but no other vaccines, he was titered this year at the age of 3 and he was well protected against both Parvo and Distemper.
You are considered protected if in Parvo if you are greater than 1:64 and in 1:32 in Distemper.
Baldr was 1:2048 in Parvo and 1:4096 in Distemper.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Thank you, SnorPuddel!
Yes, $60.00 covers both the parvo/distemper titer. My issue is this--even if antibodies are low, vaccinating them again doesn't serve any purpose. Per the research (and this is but one example):


> It would be wonderful to be able to say that once this ratio dips below a certain level, it’s time to give another vaccination to “boost” immunity. But that reflects an incorrect understanding of the immune response. Vaccines don’t inject immunity into a dog. Instead, they stimulate the immune system to form two kinds of cells, antibodies that fight the current infection, and memory cells that remain behind after the infection has been eradicated, to pump out more antibodies if the same virus is encountered in the future.
> 
> Memory cells persist for 20 years or more, and are not increased when the animal is re-vaccinated or re-exposed to the disease. The detection of antibodies in the bloodstream, which is what a titer test does, tells us that process took place and that memory cells are present, but the absence of antibodies does not mean there are no memory cells or that the dog is not immune. Veterinary immunologist Ian Tizard writes, "You can have a negative titer and if the pet is exposed, memory cells can respond within hours to regenerate enough antibodies for protective immunity." (Tizard, Ian R., Veterinary Immunology: An Introduction, 6th Ed, Saunders 2000.)


This is where my vet and I argue because she can't give me a good/valid reason for revaccination. Instead, she'll try and scare me by talking about unusual cases wherein an adult dog (in this case, a Dalmation) got parvo. :argh: 

My issue is whether or not the vaccination (booster) is of _any _benefit, as it seems these vaccinations truly cause more harm than good. There's so much conflicting research out there too--it's frustrating. :banghead:


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Thank you, SnorPuddel!
> Yes, $60.00 covers both the parvo/distemper titer. My issue is this--even if antibodies are low, vaccinating them again doesn't serve any purpose. Per the research (and this is but one example):
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, there is so much information to sift thru and try to make a good decision on. I wish your vet would not make it harder on you with scare tactics, that is just uncalled for.

I will continue to titer my guys every so often and cross the re-vaccination bridge if their numbers fall below the protected guideline, which will be hopefully NEVER.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*Lyme Vaccine/Lyme disease?*

So I wonder what is worse- Lyme disease, or the vaccination? 
My Zack came down with Lyme once during his 12 yrs of life- he never had a recurrence, he wasn't very ill, and one round of anti biotics took care of the nasty bugs.
The vet then advised vaccinating the other three dogs, but I was worried about doing that. 
Since I was unsure of the ramifications of vaccinating my dogs , I finally decided not to vacinate for for Lyme- so far so good, Amber the dachshund is 13 yrs, Missy is 11 yrs old, and Harley is 7 yrs old, and even though we too live in Lyme country, and I won't use any kind of chemical protection, the other 3 dogs are fine and have never had Lyme..We have an acre+ of property so they are always outside, but we check them religiously for ticks at the end of the day. So far, so good.Hope that I am doing the right thing.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We have in the past two years, begun the Dr. Jean Dodds protocol for vaccination, and are now recommending all of our puppy families do the same. We do titers and if their levels dip to the point where it appears they no longer have protection from any particular disease, we will re-vaccinate for that particular disease. Holy cow your prices are high! I just got Quincy's puppy booster, with a thorough physical (and a pleasurable 50 minute chat about this very subject) for $72 CDN. all inclusive.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Thank you, *ArreauStandardPoodle*--I'm going to research Dr. Jean Dodds. I don't want to vaccinate if it's not necessary but then again, I don't want to leave my pups vulnerable to disease either. 

Going to the vet sometimes requires a home equity loan. LOL Merlin's dental with extractions / neuter surgery was in the 4-digits! He's worth every penny but still... (But I'll admit they do a great job, the practice is AAHA certified and you get what you pay for, etc.)

ETA: Here's a link for Dr. Jean Dodds' vaccination protocol for anyone interested: http://www.doglogic.com/vaccination.htm



> For breeds or families of dogs* susceptible to or effected with immune dysfunction, immune-mediated disease, immune-reactions associated with vaccinations, or autoimmune endocrine disease (e.g., thyroiditis, Addison's or Cushing's disease, diabetes, etc.), the following protocol is recommended...


*I think poodles fall into this category for sure!

*papoodles*: I've heard of so many dogs getting Lyme's despite being vaccinated! So like you, I continuously ask myself--_is it worth it?_ I try to educate myself on my dog's health care, just as I educate myself on my own care. You have to be your own advocate. I just really hate the scare tactics vets often use to convince you to do something. Because then I leave feeling guilty--as if I've just put my dog at risk for something when I feel like I'm actually saving him from something worse. **sigh**


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

papoodles said:


> So I wonder what is worse- Lyme disease, or the vaccination?
> My Zack came down with Lyme once during his 12 yrs of life- he never had a recurrence, he wasn't very ill, and one round of anti biotics took care of the nasty bugs.
> The vet then advised vaccinating the other three dogs, but I was worried about doing that.
> Since I was unsure of the ramifications of vaccinating my dogs , I finally decided not to vacinate for for Lyme- so far so good, Amber the dachshund is 13 yrs, Missy is 11 yrs old, and Harley is 7 yrs old, and even though we too live in Lyme country, and I won't use any kind of chemical protection, the other 3 dogs are fine and have never had Lyme..We have an acre+ of property so they are always outside, but we check them religiously for ticks at the end of the day. So far, so good.Hope that I am doing the right thing.


The problem with the Lyme vaccine is that is isn't very reliable. Foxxy tested positive for the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi, which is the organism that creates Lyme disease, while on the Lyme vaccine.
In dogs, most will not get Lyme's, they will be carriers, unfortunately even with treatment of one month of 600 mg of doxycycline daily, it will not eradicate all the spirochetes, as they are exceptional at hiding in the body. What one wants to achieve is a premunitive state (a balance between the host and the spirochete , so that the immune defense of the host can resist further infection).
Foxxy gets yearly blood work now to make sure her liver and kidney numbers are good as those organs are effected by the spirochete.
Foxxy had a very slight limp and that is what made me take her to the vets, it was one of those "is she limping or not" but as it is a sign of Lyme's I wanted to be proactive. Now many dogs will test false positive once they have been vaccinated against Lyme, so that is also something to think about.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Thank you, *ArreauStandardPoodle*--I'm going to research Dr. Jean Dodds. I don't want to vaccinate if it's not necessary but then again, I don't want to leave my pups vulnerable to disease either.
> 
> Going to the vet sometimes requires a home equity loan. LOL Merlin's dental with extractions / neuter surgery was in the 4-digits! He's worth every penny but still... (But I'll admit they do a great job, the practice is AAHA certified and you get what you pay for, etc.)
> 
> ...


Dr Jean Dodds is having a webinar on July 26th !

Here is the link, I won't be able to watch as I will be at work


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

SnorPuddel said:


> Dr Jean Dodds is having a webinar on July 26th !
> 
> Here is the link, I won't be able to watch as I will be at work


THANK YOU! I'll have to see if I can "attend" this!


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you, Rowan and Snorpuddel.
I make my husband take the dogs to the vets because he can stand up for himself, and debate the issues, while I just crumble under the onslought of scientifec data that gets thrown at me...
And really, they don't know everything so you have to be an advocate for your dogs- my poor Zack was misdiagnosed by a newly graduated associate vet for two weeks, he had toe cancer and not just an infected toe nail! It was only because my husband made a stink about an infection that didn't heal that caused a change in diagnosis! Yes, multiple apologies after that issue..
Zack presented with the same symptoms for Lyme as your dog, snorrpuddle- he had a slight limp in his rear leg, but immediately thereafter, he became lethargic, didn't want to eat, all he wanted to do was sleep.The vets told me that if he limped again, and had a temp, then it was probably a recurrence and I shoulds call them immediately.Luckily that never happened again


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I recently switched vets because mine believed that the 3 years rabies vaccine did not provide enough protection and told me that titers were unreliable. They also liked to sneak the Lepto vaccine in there with the Distemper, Hepatits and Parvo. 

What this vet failed to understand, was that I am not titering to show that my dog has immunity. I am _confident_ that my dog has immunity. I am titering so that I have proof of his/her immunity for the public. Millie's titers will begin in 3 years, as she was given her last set of 3 year DHPP vaccinations this year.

I ended up switching to a holistic/integrative veterinarian. She gave Millie her 1 year booster of DHPP. So, this year, Millie has been vaccinated for DHPP and Rabies. I chose not to do the bordetella vaccine. Millie will have NO vaccines for 3 years. In 3 years, she will be given rabies and she will be titred. My holistic vet sait that she has NEVER had a dog show up low on their titers, after having an appropriate set of puppy shots/1 year booster. She said that in all likelihood, Millie is protected for life.

I love this holistic vet. The ONLY downside is that she specializes mostly in vaccinations, nutrition and cancer. She does not seem to be the vet I would consult if I were ever to breed a dog, or with very specific medical issues. She provides wonderful support, though.

So, in short, this is what I personally believe is the most moderate approach to vaccinating to provide protection without overvaccinating (basically Dr. Dodd's schedule, except I _think_, don't quote me, go ahead and look it up, she prefers JUST Distemper + Parvo. Unfortunately, this vaccine is difficult to find)

Puppy shots: DHPP 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 16 weeks
1 year booster: 1.5 years
NO more DHPP vaccinations. Titer as necessary/if desired.

Rabies at 6 months (1 year shot) and at 1.5 years (3 year shot if allowed by law), every 3 years after (or as required by law)

Bordetella only if really necessary. I skipped it for Henry and Millie. I did give it to Tiger since he will be showing.

No Lyme vaccinations, no Lepto vaccinations, no canine influenza vaccinations.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I recently switched vets because mine believed that the 3 years rabies vaccine did not provide enough protection and told me that titers were unreliable. They also liked to sneak the Lepto vaccine in there with the Distemper, Hepatits and Parvo.
> 
> What this vet failed to understand, was that I am not titering to show that my dog has immunity. I am _confident_ that my dog has immunity. I am titering so that I have proof of his/her immunity for the public. Millie's titers will begin in 3 years, as she was given her last set of 3 year DHPP vaccinations this year.
> 
> ...


TOTALLY with you here! This is what we are doing now. Could you find yourself a good fertility vet for if/when you start breeding. We have been so blessed. Trillium has found an amazing vet in her area who does fertility work. She has been the vet who has done all our testing, reasonably, compared to some, and totally agrees with what we are choosing to do with the vaccines. She is a breeder, so sees things differently than some vets would. We love her. I will take Quincy the two hours for his testing. We have vet here who does our general care, and they are seeing the light too. Maybe WE have to educate THEM!


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

Out here in NM, I've been unable to find a vet who does anything other than the 5-in-one, few have even heard of raw feeding, and NONE support (or are educated on) Dr. J. D.'s protocal. All push heartworm on all clients, all insist on science diet. Our one holistic vet doesn't even DO vaccines, just charges $150 for a visit. 

What is wrong with the canine influenza bit? While i'd prefer to just find a parvo/distemper combo, they are not available. When you buy your own vaccines here, they come with two bottles. One is liquid parvo, the other vaccines are contained in a powder disk. You combine the parvo with the powder then vaccinate. 

I wish nm were more progressive when it came to vaccines... i even remember walgreens offering 12-in-1 puppy vaccines at one point...


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

FunkyPuppy:
Could your vet write you a prescription for the Parvo/Distemper 2-way shot to a "Vet Supply" or something? (Do they even make a 2-way shot?) When you receive it, you could then take it to your vet to give the shot so it's in your Spoo's official vet record. (???)

Does your vet titer--or are they willing to titer? Technically, they should do what you ask them to do (or not do). I flat out refused to get my dog's DHLPP boosters before my vet got hip to the titer. Then they tried to titer EVERY year and I balked at that. Now they do it every three years.  I haven't won all the battles but I won those two! LOL


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

Canine Influenza does not protect the dog for more than a few weeks. Mia was involved in a study last year as a non vaccinated dog. It's basically pointless. I wouldn't give it unless it is endemic in the area and you know the dog will be exposed. So I will never give it.

I don't give my guys kennel cough either. The only dog ,E's dog, in the house that is coughing currently (we brought it back from somewhere last week) has had the vaccine. It makes me giggle as E is pro vaccine and her dog is coughing. I'm very happy with Kodi and Mia's healthy immune systems.

Rowan I live right up the road and have gone back and forth on the Lyme vaccine too. Mia has so much hair, and being black, I feel like I won't find a tick. Even with Frontline I'm sure she'll pick up a tick. I just can't decide if it's worth it. I keep asking myself if I give the vaccine and she gets Lyme will it help her immune system. I just don't think we have the answer. So for now she hasn't gotten it.

Kodi will not get ANY vaccine because he had a vaccine reaction as a puppy. Ok except rabies as required by law. My vet premedicates him and if he ever has a reaction she will fill out a medical exemption form for him.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

FunkyPuppy said:


> Out here in NM, I've been unable to find a vet who does anything other than the 5-in-one, few have even heard of raw feeding, and NONE support (or are educated on) Dr. J. D.'s protocal. All push heartworm on all clients, all insist on science diet. Our one holistic vet doesn't even DO vaccines, just charges $150 for a visit.
> 
> What is wrong with the canine influenza bit? While i'd prefer to just find a parvo/distemper combo, they are not available. When you buy your own vaccines here, they come with two bottles. One is liquid parvo, the other vaccines are contained in a powder disk. You combine the parvo with the powder then vaccinate.
> 
> I wish nm were more progressive when it came to vaccines... i even remember walgreens offering 12-in-1 puppy vaccines at one point...


Canine Influenza and Parainfluenza are different. Canine Influenza is an optional vaccine for which I see no point. Parainfluenza (part of the DHPP or DA2PP) combo is considered a core vaccine. Still, I would prefer if my dogs were vaccinated only for DPV (Distemper + Parvo))

RE: The DPV (Distemper + Parvo) 2 way shot - they DO make this, but it can only be purchased in bulk quantities, making it difficult for individuals to purchase and unlikely for more practices to have on hand. You can buy a 1 way Parvo vaccine (again, in bulk) and you USED to be able to be buy a 1 way Distemper, but that has been discontinued and it now can only be purchased paired with Parvo or with Hepatitis.


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