# Our "favourite" dogs in the news again



## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

ericwd9 said:


> Hope you don't object to me being political. LOL
> ERic


YOU being political? NAW!!! LOL

Such sad stories. It is a shame that so many have worked to turn these dogs into dangerous creatures.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Eric, if only everyone would listen!

I should know better than to watch your videos first thing with my coffee... that 6 year old girl attack tore my heart out. So, before I start cursing and getting banned... 

pr


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

An American radio personality, Dr. Laura Schlesinger , (sp?) got slammed recently, for saying that pit bulls and their mixes were a waste of space in our shelters. The pit bull owners managed to get her to retract her statements condemning the breed and apologize. That is exactly my view. Fortunately I don't have to placate sponsors.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst said:


> An American radio personality, Dr. Laura Schlesinger , (sp?) got slammed recently, for saying that pit bulls and their mixes were a waste of space in our shelters. The pit bull owners managed to get her to retract her statements condemning the breed and apologize. That is exactly my view. Fortunately I don't have to placate sponsors.


That is so wrong! The pittie lovers are able to express their views but the rest of us can't? Nothing will ever change for the better if bullying like that continues to work.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I have tried twice to copy a link to a story that is more likely to happen in Texas with our open carry (guns) law. A man in Pasadena shot a pit bull at a local dog park for allegedly attacking his dog. If only the owner of the pit bull read their forum about the inadvisabity of taking that breed to a dog park or carried a break stick...I am not a fan of loaded guns. Either firearms or the canine variety. Geez.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodlerunner said:


> I should know better than to watch your videos first thing with my coffee...


Well I could tell from the thumbnails that these videos were way beyond my Rating Advisory... so I avoided them. Sorry, Eric...  lol

No Pit Bulls *whatever they are* allowed in Ontario. Good? Bad? Who knows... it is what it is.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

There are many WELL BRED pitties working as service dogs in the US and other parts of the world. They can be really great dogs. 

These attacks are so different from the true temperament of the breed. They were bred as fighting dog so YES they are dog aggressive BUT they were also bred to not bite a human EVER regardless of the pain they were in. Biting pits got killed as they could not be tended. I LOVE pitties but hate the perverted poorly bred dogs making the headlines.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> There are many WELL BRED pitties working as service dogs in the US and other parts of the world. They can be really great dogs.
> 
> These attacks are so different from the true temperament of the breed. They were bred as fighting dog so YES they are dog aggressive BUT they were also bred to not bite a human EVER regardless of the pain they were in. Biting pits got killed as they could not be tended. I LOVE pitties but hate the perverted poorly bred dogs making the headlines.


Well the breed is now ruined. The bad way overshadows the good because there is nothing that this breed brings to the game that you can't get elsewhere. Ban them all.

pr


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Pits used to be called the "nanny dog" as they could be trusted with kids... Bad breeding and lots of BYB has really injured this breed. I love dogs, but draw the line at pits because of my bad experiences with them.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

A pit bull was shot at a dog park in Houston within the last 2 days!


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

PoodlePaws said:


> A pit bull was shot at a dog park in Houston within the last 2 days!



My two dogs have both been attached by pits at local dog parks here in Houston. I now leave if someone brings one in. 

But my worse story is about the one who bit my Grandmother. It was my Aunts dog. It had been a loving family pet for five years with no sign of aggression. Then, he attacked my GM (she was 87 at the time and is 4' 11") as she was getting out of a chair. 

It took all three grown men in the room to get the dog off her. She luckily only needed 27 stitches. 

But get this - my Aunt chose to not invite people over any more and keep the dog. I found out after the fact she made GM say it was a stray that attached her at the hospital because she was afraid they would take and put down the dog. 

That is the mentality of these people. It goes to "guns don't kill people...." Instead it is "Pitbulls don't kill people, bad dog owners do." I have four or five Facebook friends who are constantly posting stories about how great the breed is and how they are not dangerous. 

News flash: if you have to provide constant propaganda proving your point, you are probably on the wrong side of thinking.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

I haven't seen the links yet, but it got me thinking. I Googled "children killed by dogs" to see if I could get some facts that could substantiate pro or con about pits and the "nanny-dog" nickname - which I have only heard in recent years - less then 10. I clicked on the Wikipedia link and there is a lot of info.

Here's the link about the "beloved nanny dog" Fatal dog attacks in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I also looked up "nanny dog" and this site came up,
The TRUTH About Pit Bulls: The Nanny Dog Myth Revealed

I read the Wikipedia article and went through the years and to my delight, but not surprised, the Poodle was not involved in any fatal dog attacks on humans. Of course I do not know how complete this list is. There were some breeds that surprised and shocked me!!

A few bad apples doesn't mean the whole bushel is bad, and the flip side is a few good apples doesn't mean the whole bushel is good.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

here's the latest in california: &apos;Dog Whisperer&apos; Cesar Millan sued in pit bull attack - LA Times


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I know better than to watch as well. I love all dogs and I hate that this breed has been ruined. I also think it has been proven that the "Pitt as a Nanny Dog", is a myth. I use Facebook to showcase local shelter dogs, I rarely ever post a photo of a Pitt. Our shelters are full of them and rarely do they ever get adopted and it makes me so sad. I just don't trust them. I have friends that try to convince me it's bad owners, not a bad breed and I think that is partly true. I think I could safely own one... but why would I want too. Why would anyone want to take that chance. I think they are beautiful and most are very loving, but they are also dangerous. I think the owner of any dog that attacks needs to be jailed and that might stop this madness.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

*Our &quot;favourite&quot; dogs in the news again*

@PatK that is just terrible. 

Interested on opinions from that article. At the end of the day I think it was the owner's fault. If I take my dog to training camp, and I don't pay the fee for months, so the dog is returned to me...it's ultimately my fault, not the training camp. In fact, anything my dog does I am ultimately responsible for..as her owner. 

I agree with CarleysMom.. We need to always hold the owners responsible.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

http://www.latimes.com/local/crime/la-me-dog-mauling-sentence-20141004-story.html


Wow.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Naira, I also clicked on the related story link that you posted. That was shocking, but also interesting to see that an effective case was made against the owner of the dogs. If there were more cases like that one (not that I want to see more people being mauled to death, but more effective prosecutions that made the owners of dangerous dogs deeply accountable for their dogs' behaviors) then maybe the dim bulbs who insist their dangerous animals are the best thing since sliced bread would think twice about controlling them by what ever means needed (muzzles, physical confinement, euthanasia).

As far as the original story that patk posted on, that dog shouldn't have still been alive IMO. A dog with a known history of being dangerous shouldn't be transferred around like that. Of course the owner should have been paying the fees, but if the Milan center didn't want to house the dog because it was costing them then they should have told the owner they were going to put the dog down. They are the ones who originally took on responsibility for it from a previous owner.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Carley's Mom said:


> I know better than to watch as well. I love all dogs and I hate that this breed has been ruined. I also think it has been proven that the "Pitt as a Nanny Dog", is a myth. I use Facebook to showcase local shelter dogs, I rarely ever post a photo of a Pitt. Our shelters are full of them and rarely do they ever get adopted and it makes me so sad. I just don't trust them. I have friends that try to convince me it's bad owners, not a bad breed and I think that is partly true. I think I could safely own one... but why would I want too. Why would anyone want to take that chance. I think they are beautiful and most are very loving, but they are also dangerous. I think the owner of any dog that attacks needs to be jailed and that might stop this madness.


I have a question for you on your statement that you think you could safely own one. How would you do that? Really, just wondering how that can even be done. 

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> if the Milan center didn't want to house the dog because it was costing them then they should have told the owner they were going to put the dog down. They are the ones who originally took on responsibility for it from a previous owner.


I agree with you. They are self described experts and to put the public in danger because someone didn't pay their fees was unconscionable.

pr


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

millan is one of the big names in pit bull rescue. this seems to be the one issue on which he and the more aggressive positive only types who hate him agree. i can respect the impulse to rescue, but i don't have to respect the judgment involved when it comes to pitties - and i don't!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Poodlerunner, I think I can read dogs. I would know that a Pitt could not run free. I would train my dog. I would keep control of it at all times. I think some people can safely own them. I also think there are so many other breeds, why take that on.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Carley's Mom said:


> Poodlerunner, I think I can read dogs. I would know that a Pitt could not run free. I would train my dog. I would keep control of it at all times. I think some people can safely own them. I also think there are so many other breeds, why take that on.


Maybe you could. I can't read those dogs at all. They always look scary to me. 

pr


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

They are one of the very best temperament dogs, period. BUT they are like a time bomb. ONE DAY they go off. Those whose bullies have not yet shown this behavior can not bring themselves to believe this can happen, no matter how much evidence is presented. Some bullies never get to go off (I have been told) but all the ones I have known did.
Eric.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

One tried to snatch Timi out of my arms in class last week. I felt the teeth graze my arm as the jaw snapped shut. They do not belong in our society - no more than should someone be permitted to walk around with a Lion or a Tiger on a leash should they be permitted to walk around with a Pit on a leash. Off leash should be a felony.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

That was my reaction!! I think they should either be banned or put into some serious regulations as far as WHO is allowed to breed these dogs. Add Cane Corsos and the like to this list, two dog breeds with an enormous propensity to maul dogs/kids/people.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Here's an idea! Why not have a license for the owners of pittes, cane corsos and the like? To get the license the owner would have to take a written test where they would have to explain how they would manage their dog under different circumstances, pass an evaluation where they worked with a dog of the breed they want (but a dog not known to them) and pay a fee (maybe something on the order of $100). They could also be required to carry a high value umbrella liability policy for the duration of the dog's life. Make the penalty for noncompliance hefty too. I would do all of that if required to keep Peeves.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> They do not belong in our society - no more than should someone be permitted to walk around with a Lion or a Tiger on a leash should they be permitted to walk around with a Pit on a leash. Off leash should be a felony.


When I see people with them, I can't help but wonder if they are just stupid about dogs. My neighbor rescued one. She has two small size designer mutts. This pit bull is aloof. One day I heard the most horrible barking and her junior high school girl calling for HELP. She needed help because trying to protect the littler dogs from Nala. She just turned 1 year old. I live in pit bull/Cane Corso hell. I'm actually thinking of moving but I love my house.

pr


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

It is most like best I stay out of this but I just cannot. I feel most people that own a Pit, think it is a status symbol, at lease the ones I have encounter do. I have no use for the dogs and normally for the people that own them, at least the people I know which are few and far between


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## Bizzeemamanj (Apr 14, 2014)

glorybeecosta said:


> It is most like best I stay out of this but I just cannot. I feel most people that own a Pit, think it is a status symbol, at lease the ones I have encounter do. I have no use for the dogs and normally for the people that own them, at least the people I know which are few and far between


I'm honestly never sure where I stand on this issue. I have known people who have successful raised and homed beautiful pit bulls in a family environment. But, I also know that part of the pit's breeding is a multigenerational temperament geared towards aggression. You wouldn't get a well bred poodle and then expect it to have the temperament of a jack russell terrier. Why would owners expect a pit bull to have the temperament of a golden retriever?

As for the status symbol aspect - I actually think it's a bit of a cultural phenomenon, especially in places like Los Angeles. Big, muscular, menacing dogs with studded wire collars being walked on leads of wire, left in yards to menace people passing by...it all says "don't mess with me". Unfortunately it's the perfect recipe for disaster.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Here's an idea! Why not have a license for the owners of pittes, cane corsos and the like? To get the license the owner would have to take a written test where they would have to explain how they would manage their dog under different circumstances, pass an evaluation where they worked with a dog of the breed they want (but a dog not known to them) and pay a fee (maybe something on the order of $100). They could also be required to carry a high value umbrella liability policy for the duration of the dog's life. Make the penalty for noncompliance hefty too. I would do all of that if required to keep Peeves.


Omaha, NE has a very tough 'bully breed' law on the books. Required to be muzzled with out of the fenced yard or home, must be on leash with someone 19 years old and older, must carry $100,000 insurance in case the dog does attack. 

I am also not sure where I stand with this... I do see an awful lot of IDIOT owners with them- not all owners, but a LOT who are clueless about their dog's behavior. :/


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

I just ran a search on incidents of violence against humans and animals just to see how large this pitbull problem really is, and......99.9% of all violent acts are committed by......ummm, men. Apparently they've been bred with a propensity toward violence. So.....I guess we should ban men. Sorry, Eric. On the bright side, this will probably take care of the pitbull problem, too.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> When I see people with them, I can't help but wonder if they are just stupid about dogs. My neighbor rescued one. She has two small size designer mutts. This pit bull is aloof. One day I heard the most horrible barking and her junior high school girl calling for HELP. She needed help because trying to protect the littler dogs from Nala. She just turned 1 year old. I live in pit bull/Cane Corso hell. I'm actually thinking of moving but I love my house.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



The one who was with the Pitbull that wanted to chomp Timi was a frail woman in her 60's! And all she could do was talk about how adorable Timi was, and how her friend has an adorable lap dog just like Timi. I don't know what she was doing with that Pit - must have been some bleeding heart rescue story. The poor woman was practically in tears when the owner was telling her she couldn't come to class anymore, but they would let her use the rest of her money on private lessons. I sure hope that they do the right thing and get that situation to resolve as it should - that woman is going to be devastated when her dog kills her friend's lapdog, or somebody else's dog. Or worse!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

These paragraphs are not the whole article. (it wouldn't fit on one page here) If you want to find out more, the link is below. 

From 1955 to Current: Rising rate of dog bites, dog bite fatalities, number and ages of children bitten, and comparison rates of unprovoked dog bite attacks.



DOG BITE STATISTICS, FROM 1955 TO CURRENT compiled by Ms. Jade


How many times have we heard someone in the media making inflammatory statements about dog bite statistics without ever disclosing their source? Researching this subject on the Internet has uncovered some enlightening information.



Sourcing any given statistic on dog bites is suprisingly difficult, as assurance of accuracy. *The motivation of the providing source must be considered as well as the fact that many sources derive their data from news reports instead of county health records. *Only about half of the dog bites reported as “pit bulls” actually are, as many mixed breed dogs are called “pit bulls”. Also, many studies quoted each other’s data as a premise for their own. 



Municipal Court Judge, Francis X. Gorman (7-8-2004 Toledo, OH) stated: “Obviously the ratio of dog bites per dog versus dog population seemingly would be relevant in this case. .. Candidly, this court feels that ... Pit Bulls do not cause the most bites in the United States. Certainly the bites of mixed breed dogs far exceed those of the Pit Bull because there are many more mixed breed dogs than Pit Bulls. Moreover, even local statistics indicate that, for example, the Chow bites more frequently than the Pit Bull.”



A recent study of the medical charts of minors seeking medical attention for dog bites did actually reference the breed involved (as identified by the veterinarian providing proof of rabies vaccination) to the total breed population as could reasonably be determined by administrative district records (Pediatrics, March 2006). The resulting risk index showed that German Shepherd Dogs were 5 times more likely to cause bite trauma than “pit bulls”.



The website for the Centers for Disease Control has a disclaimer about their own, often misused and misquoted statistics. *"A CDC study on fatal dog bites lists the breeds involved in fatal attacks over 20 years...does not identify specific breeds that are most likely to bite or kill, and thus is not appropriate for policy-making decisions related to the topic. And "There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill." Since the source for their statistics was news reports (see “Media Bias”) and data supplied by an animal rights organization with a frightening political agenda, the study is all but useless.*


*To put all of this into perspective I offer some additional information that I discovered. In the United States, approximately: 2,000 children are killed every year by their parents, through abuse and neglect (A child is 800 times more likely to be killed by their adult caretaker than by a “Pit Bull”)



Dr. Ian Dunbar, a veterinarian and behaviorist from Berkeley, CA. believes the entire issue is overblown. He maintains more people are killed annually by tripping over their own slippers than all fatal dog attacks combined, regardless of breed. 



Even Dr. Julie Gilchrist of the CDC agrees. “The truth is that SUV’s are far more dangerous than pit bulls, and they’re still on the road." 

It is estimated that around 5,000,000 dogs per year are killed in shelters. In many places “Pit Bulls” make up as much as 30-50% of the shelter population, and sadly, are less likely to be considered for adoption than any other breed. Assuming that 25% of the shelter dogs killed are “Pit Bulls”, then approximately 1.25 million “Pit Bulls” are killed in shelters every year.


Therefore, it is at least a hundred thousand times more likely that a “Pit Bull” will be killed by a HUMAN, than the other way around.*
DOG BITE STATISTICS 1955 TO PRESENT


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*Pick the Pit*


Can you pick out the Pit? What is a Pit exactly? It is not a breed. How can they morally and even legally ban a dog that isn't identifiable by a written standard as with a fixed breed? 



Pick the Pit - Can you find the Pitbull?


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> The one who was with the Pitbull that wanted to chomp Timi was a frail woman in her 60's! And all she could do was talk about how adorable Timi was, and how her friend has an adorable lap dog just like Timi. I don't know what she was doing with that Pit - must have been some bleeding heart rescue story. The poor woman was practically in tears when the owner was telling her she couldn't come to class anymore, but they would let her use the rest of her money on private lessons. I sure hope that they do the right thing and get that situation to resolve as it should - that woman is going to be devastated when her dog kills her friend's lapdog, or somebody else's dog. Or worse!


You have to wonder who placed that dog with her. Rescue or Breeder either one should have their head examined. 

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I washed my dog in a self service place near my house. Washing and drying the poodle on a Sunday caused quite the back up which caused a commotion outside the bathing room. I shouldn't have been surprised by what I saw.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *Pick the Pit*
> 
> 
> Can you pick out the Pit? What is a Pit exactly? It is not a breed. How can they morally and even legally ban a dog that isn't identifiable by a written standard as with a fixed breed?
> ...


We know exactly what dogs we are referring to. Look at the pic I posted in this thread and you will see 4 examples. 

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

This paragraph goes with the link I posted above with the pictures:



One of the pictures below is of an American pit bull terrier. The others are of other specific, registered breeds. No mixes, no mutts.

As you will see with this quiz, there are lots of breeds of dogs who look like what people think of as a pit bull. When they're mixes, it's even harder to differentiate them.

So, what exactly is a "pit bull?" Nobody really knows. The United Kennel Club lists American Pit Bull Terriers as an official breed, but the American Kennel Club doesn't. It only lists a related breed: the American Staffordshire Terrier. (And the United Kennel Club doesn't list Am Staffs.)

When people talk about pit bulls, they're generally talking about any breed or mix that looks like what they _think_ of as being a "pit bull."


*DNA tests of pit bull-looking dogs often come up with some surprising results. One dog, who looked to all intents and purposes like a pit bull, turned out to be 40 percent poodle!*

*That's a funny thought, but for the dogs it's a real problem. Many cities and counties – even whole countries – have laws that ban pit bulls. Law enforcement officers can go into people's homes and take away any dog who has "the appearance of a pit bull." Even if they're 40 percent poodle. They can be taken to the pound and then killed.*
That's why so many of us don't like these breed discrimination laws. In the right hands, any dog is a good dog. In the wrong hands, any dog is a bad dog. Breed or type has nothing to do with it.

So see if you can pick the pit. How many tries will it take you?[/


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Statistics*

It is true that many of the recorded attacks in the US by pit bulls (and other breeds) are not attributed to pure bred Dogs. Most of the pitties you see on the streets are cross breeds. Back yard breeding is most common with pit bulls and breeding with other aggressive breeds is common. I would say that breeding two known aggressive dogs together is most likely to bring out that aggression. That being said the propensity of young people to want a "tough" dog is not confined to race, gender or socio-economic background. Then there is the equally aggressive pro pit bull lobby, that distributes misinformation. The web is FULL of posts promoting nanny dogs. Very little reading is needed to show that these posts quote each other and many are plain misleading or packs of lies. This is part of the overall problem. Prospective web surfing owners are being led to believe the real statistics are false and that the "breed" has no behavioural problems. Even the relatively few people found here on this forum, have witnessed attacks by pit bulls. Many of these attacks are never reported and are not a part of any statistics. Below are the actual "recorded" statistics. attacks on humans are usually recorded, because if injury results mandatory reporting occurs in most states. There is no such reporting structure for attacks on dogs and far more occur than are recorded.

*Published on Oct 9, 2012*
New Haven - But i thought Poodles were just as vicious right pit nutters? Fun Fact: Family PB killed a new born on 05/Oct/2012 & a baby boy on 25/Sep/2012! Poodles killed ZIP. Of the 4,310 dogs involved in fatal & disfiguring attacks on humans in the U.S. & Canada since Sep 1982 till now, 2,709 (63%) were PB; 535 were Rotties; Of the 513 human fatalities, 260 were killed by PB; 84 were killed by Rotties; Of the 2,433 people who were disfigured, 1,605 (65%) were disfigured by PB; 313 were disfigured by Rotties; PB--exclusive of their use in dogfighting--also inflict about 10 times as many fatal & disfiguring injuries on other pets & livestock as on humans, a pattern unique to the PB class.

A web search for nanny dogs gives a good Idea of the problem.

Eric:angel2:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I would love to hear statistics on dogs killing other dogs - I bet the vast majority are Pits. That Pit was not trying to bite me - it could have gotten my arm if it wanted to - those powerful jaws were chomping for Timi!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'll have to go with the CDC's info. Bottom line Eric...it's not the "breed." It's the irresponsible, sometimes criminal human owner who needs to be held accountable. Dogs that bite are _usually_ mistreated, abused and made to be human aggressive. It is not the dog's fault.


12 Reasons to Oppose Breed-Discriminatory Legislation : StubbyDog



> Breed-discriminatory legislation (BDL) refers to laws that target dogs based on how they look rather than their actions. Hundreds of U.S. cities have already enacted BDL, and more cities adopt it every year. Many cities and counties—plus Marine Corps and Army bases—have banned select breeds altogether. Other cities enact BDL that automatically labels dogs of certain breeds as “vicious” or “dangerous” regardless of their behavior. These laws may require owners of the targeted breeds to follow strict guidelines, such as sterilization, proof of liability insurance, housing of the dog in a cage with a roof and floor, and muzzling the dog when on a leash. Currently, BDL most often focuses on pit bull types (dogs that have “pit bull characteristics”), but some cities also target Rottweilers, German Shepherds, Doberman Pinchers, American Bull Dogs, Bull Terriers, Mastiffs, Dalmatians, Chow Chows, other large breeds and mixes of the targeted breeds. Here, we outline the inherent flaws of BDL, why it doesn’t work and why it concerns every dog lover.
> 
> 1. Doesn’t Make Communities Safer
> 
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

We can all give examples of incidences that we have personal experience with. I was bitten badly (had lots of reconstructive surgery and still have scars) by a Lab/terrier mix. I lost so much blood, my car (long story...when I got back in it) looked like an ax murder had taken place. 

I've had dogs attack my dogs (not the ones I have now) by various breeds, never a Pit Bull. ROFLOL. Just so people don't think only Pit Bulls attack other dogs. Dogs don't always like other dogs that aren't in their family. NORMAL _DOG_ behavior! And there are lots of breeds that have more of a tendency to attack other animals, were selected that way, yes. 

I have known more Pit Bulls than a lot of people have known. Several friends of my daughters have these types of dogs. I have met them and they were all, without exception, sweet, friendly, loving dogs. Some were old dogs and they'd never had any problems with aggression. 

One friend of my daughter's had a Pit Bull which she took care of while she was house sitting. He wasn't very well trained on a leash and took off with her holding tightly to the leash. She fell. He dragged her about 20 ft and she had her knees all scraped up. Finally, she let go of the leash. He turned around and came back and started licking her face and all over as if to say, "I'm sorry." The next times that she took him out on the leash, he walked like a perfect gentleman. She loved that dog. He has since died of old age and she tears up when she talks about Scrappy. 

My son's dog is half Pit and she's more people adoring than any dog I've ever had, with the possible exception of my female Chihuahua and my Lab. She's not particularly dog aggressive other than a little resource guarding tendency with food or a favorite toy, which is again, NORMAL dog behavior, not breed behavior. 

Yes, they tend toward dog aggression on account of their selection and history. But lots of breeds do. And don't tell me any number of large, strong dogs can't cause the damage that a Pit does. A bear or a moose can cause a lot of damage too. Do we ban those? Come on. Let's get real here. Ban the irresponsible owners of dogs that bite or punish them. Don't blame the type of dog. There is a huge list of so called "dangerous" breeds. And some of those breeds you wouldn't believe are on the list. (sometimes insurance co lists) If you don't understand the essence of this and think it's okay to ban breeds or types of dogs, then watch out. Your breed or mixed breed could be next.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled:

I agree that the owners are the problem. But the problems ARE largely breed specific. Irresponsible dog owners looking for a tough dog favour the pit bull types. The rest of your post is just more of the aggressive, pit bull lobby material that the net is full of.

I find most all of your posts contain very useful information, gleaned from your extensive studies and experienced comment, based on the dogs you have owned and trained. But your defence of "pit bulls" shows little real acquired knowledge and a lot of material copied and pasted from pit bull lobby sites. We could post plenty more from anti pit bull sites from respected organisations. As soon as anyone in the media releases anything derogatory about pitties up comes the aggressive outburst from the lobby most of which is fabricated. The debate goes on and is worldwide. But the facts speak for themselves.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Stubby dog should link to this: Pitbull's and Dog Parks - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums 

Why would anyone write that stuff if it weren't true?

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> For these reasons and more, the Centers for Disease Control, the American Kennel Club, National Animal Control Association, American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, Humane Society of the United States, and American Veterinary Medical Association all oppose BDL and suggest more effective breed-neutral solutions to reducing dog bites and making communities safer, such as the AVMA’s community approach to dog bite prevention. Calgary’s Responsible Pet Ownership law is also frequently cited as an example of a successful breed-neutral law.


These people and organizations are not Pit Bull lobby sites.


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

There was a link I followed the other day that related the story of a pack of standard poodles attacking a little dog in a dog park, and the owners just ran off and the dog required vet attention. I was aghast - apparently spoos are dog aggressive. My brother used to have several pit bulls which he owned until they died of old age. They were lovely and extraordinarily balanced and well-behaved dogs. 'Facts' can be manipulated in many ways. This is a societal problem, not a breed problem. I honestly feel that many people are simply not qualified for dog ownership.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I also oppose breed specific legislation. I actually like the temperament of the pit bulls I have met. With the exception of the one that killed a dog I had in training. This does not change the fact that they ARE time bombs. Some never go off. People at large need to know what they are getting into when they chose a pit bull type. This is where I oppose the watering down of the risks. It is good to have both sides of the story. But the story remains a very sad one for many.
Eric.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

The vast majority of poodles are well handled and trained. The very need for regular grooming means, an often handled and human socialised dog. Socialisation with other dogs on the other hand means that we need to begin socialising them early and continue throughout life. I could easily see a "pack" of standard poodles being bullies in a dog park, if not well dog socialised and under control. Just like any breed.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Absolutely any dog can be dog aggressive, however it seems to me that other breeds give a lot more warning, posturing, noise, and fighting with their bodies - pits just seem to aim, chomp, and lock, without any warning. I could be wrong, but my instincts told me that there would be a lot more opportunity to intervene and not have it end lethally if the GSD or Golden in the class had had it's sights set on Timi, and not the Pit - but the fact is THEY were fine with Timi, only the Pit, with a jolly loose body, and not a hint of aggressive behavior wanted to chomp her like a squeak toy!
Why even that story about the pack of Spoos that injured the small dog enough that it required medical attention - that sounds pretty tame compared to what would have happened had that been a pack of pit bulls!


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I apologize for not reading everyone's posts. I've skimmed through a couple and feel it's okay to voice my opinion on the pitbull breed. 
I have worked in the veterinary fields and in various dog related fields for the majority of my adult life. I have always been an advocate of various breeds including those that are often deemed vicious, including the pitbull.
Five years ago this past January my opinion of the breed and drastically changed. We had a neighbor move into our community a young couple with two small children. And two pit bulls. Because we live in the country they felt they didn't need to abide by our counties leash law. We often have dogs in our community that wonder around freely so it wasn't a big deal. Until the dog started attacking. It started with chickens, then they moved to goats, and then they started on horses. We lost nearly an entire flock of chickens, several goat from our herd, and had three horses mauled by these dogs. 
After dealing with the trauma of having our livestock destroyed and killed we petitioned the neighbor to abide by the leash law keep his dogs at home. It became a legal mess but he finally gave in. 
Fast forward to this past November.
After several years of compliance from the pit bulls owner we had a new dog move into the community. Also a pitbull. This dog was just as aggressive if not more aggressive than the original pit bulls. But because he was running loose the first pitbull owner retaliated and started letting his dog run loose again and by this point he had several pit bulls. County animal control was contacted however each time they responded to a call the dogs were found to be on the appropriate property so there was nothing they could do. 
One afternoon Icame home from work to find that our male German Shepherd had been viciously attacked. He had two broken legs, tears in his chest and throat area, dislocated hip, and a hole in his trachea. I called our Vet, I called animal control, I called the police. And then I paid my pitbull neighbors a visit. What I found was dogs covered in blood and lacerations consistent with a fight. Animal control came out however since no one physically witnessed the fight there was nothing they could do. The dog owner was fined and it was requested again that he keep his dogs on his property. Ultimately our William had to be put down.
About two weeks later we were contacted by a detective and requested to testify on the viciousness of the dogs ( one set). Turns out they mauled a child riding his bike I front of their house. The owners claim the boy threw a stick at the dog which then initiated his attack response. 
The multiple owners of the pit bulls that have Been allowed to roam in our community suggest that it is our fault the attacks have happened. They claim their dogs are following natural instincts that prompt them to chase attack and kill. 
The owners of the pit bulls have suggested that we, as owners of livestock and small children keep our animals and kids confined in an enclosed area that will prevent their dogs access. According to them, as long as the prey is there their dogs will attack.
Needless to say I no longer have any tolerance for any pitbull or pitbull mix. At this point if one is seen on my property it is shot without hesitation.


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

Why even that story about the pack of Spoos that injured the small dog enough that it required medical attention - that sounds pretty tame compared to what would have happened had that been a pack of pit bulls![/QUOTE]


Whaaaaaat?


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Spoos+Ponies said:


> There was a link I followed the other day that related the story of a pack of standard poodles attacking a little dog in a dog park, and the owners just ran off and the dog required vet attention. I was aghast - apparently spoos are dog aggressive. My brother used to have several pit bulls which he owned until they died of old age. They were lovely and extraordinarily balanced and well-behaved dogs. 'Facts' can be manipulated in many ways. This is a societal problem, not a breed problem. I honestly feel that many people are simply not qualified for dog ownership.


My two are a little obnoxious when they are together. But they don't need a break stick. This fact is not manipulated. Look in the kill shelters. Full of pit bulls. I would call that a BIG BREED PROBLEM.

pr


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well i guess i can repeat again what i've said earlier. we all talk about breed specific traits. if you have a border collie that tries to herd your kids, the answer is they were bred to herd. we are not surprised when a sight hound wants to chase. but when it comes to pitbulls, suddenly the issue of breed traits (as in, bred for aggression and to fight) disappears. that makes the discussion as grounded and logical as a "serious" discussion of flying pigs.:flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig:


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

patk said:


> well i guess i can repeat again what i've said earlier. we all talk about breed specific traits. if you have a border collie that tries to herd your kids, the answer is they were bred to herd. we are not surprised when a sight hound wants to chase. but when it comes to pitbulls, suddenly the issue of breed traits (as in, bred for aggression and to fight) disappears. that makes the discussion as grounded and logical as a "serious" discussion of flying pigs.:flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig::flypig:


It was worth repeating because, obviously, some people didn't read it before.

pr


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

*Our &quot;favourite&quot; dogs in the news again*



Poodlebeguiled said:


> We can all give examples of incidences that we have personal experience with. I was bitten badly (had lots of reconstructive surgery and still have scars) by a Lab/terrier mix. I lost so much blood, my car (long story...when I got back in it) looked like an ax murder had taken place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you let your little poodles and Chi meet and play with all of those "sweet, friendly, loving" Pitbulls that you know?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Spoos+Ponies said:


> Why even that story about the pack of Spoos that injured the small dog enough that it required medical attention - that sounds pretty tame compared to what would have happened had that been a pack of pit bulls!






Whaaaaaat?[/

Meaning that even if they had enough break sticks to pull that little dog out of their mouths, there wouldn't be a live dog to take to the Vet if it had been a pack of Pitbulls instead of Spoos!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlerunner said:


> It was worth repeating because, obviously, some people *didn't read it before.
> *
> pr


Or simply choose to believe it isn't true or important!

Again though I think we need to remember there are two sides to this story that we've tangentially passed around, with the two sides being the dogs themselves and the owner/handlers. With proper training and management any person could potentially keep any type of dog, but it requires work for both of them on an ongoing basis. Sadly the dogs that have the most obvious ability to lay major physical damage the fastest are often owned by the stupidest of people. Then they are lethal weapons waiting to be set off.

In my neighborhood there is an insane GSD that the people were very quick to point out to me had graduated puppy class at a chain store and therefore was a "finished" dog. This dog's barking at the window was so out of control that Lily did not want to walk past the house. I have trained her to be confident down at that end of the street and she now actually sends such calming signals that the dog usually quiets once he sees who is near. I never go past that house with Peeves if I think the family is home since they think their lunatic and Peeves should be buddies and they let him out the front door off leash if they see Peeves. Old neighbors of mine had a Bouvier that was the classical cute puppy in the house, annoying adolescent confined to the kitchen, miserable adult dog chucked out in the backyard story. That dog killed another neighbor's kitten when it went under a hole in the fence and the husband told me he was walking the dog (on leash)when it killed a cat that had been just quietly sunbathing on a lawn. My point with those stories is the owners were [email protected]*es and wouldn't have been good owners of small friendly dogs let along large potentially (or in the case of the Bouvier actually) lethal animals. This is why I put up my idea earlier about special licensing for people who say they want such breeds. And have that license process be rigorous enough to weed out the types who aren't serious enough to follow through.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> We can all give examples of incidences that we have personal experience with. I was bitten badly (had lots of reconstructive surgery and still have scars) by a Lab/terrier mix. I lost so much blood, my car (long story...when I got back in it) looked like an ax murder had taken place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are proud of your daughter getting dragged down the street by a Pit and letting go of it? What do you think would have happened if somebody just happened to pass by with their little poodle when she let that Pitbull go?!

And Bears or Moose?! Yeah, I am pretty sure that people are banned from keeping them as pets and walking them down the street on a leash - Yes, I would love to see the laws cover Pitbulls exactly the same as they cover Bears and Moose!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have told this story before, but maybe not everyone has read it. I used to think it was how the dog was treated and a mistreated , untrained dog was the only kind that would get into trouble... but my own daughter was attached by a friend's boyfriend's Pitt. She went with her to feed the dog for him while he was away. Leah stood by the door, she did not try to pet or talk to the dog, she did not go inside more than the doorway. He bit her boot but she was not hurt. Her boots were trashed however... later, they tried to convince her that he had never done anything like that before and it had to be the stress he was in because of being left home alone for a few days. They invited her to dinner and promised to keep him on a leash so she could see just how gentle he truly was... she went, he did act very nice and when asked if she was comfortable with him being off leash, she agreed she was. He then jumped on her, not in an aggressive way, but a playful way. However , because he had bit her in the past, she stiffened up because it scared her. THEN HE ATTACKED HER AGAIN. This time he got her in the side and she has the scars to prove it...His owner was able to get him off of her. 

This dog was very much loved and pampered. He was never abused in anyway !


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I don't think resource guarding is a normal dog behavior. I think it is looked upon as a problem behavior. Actually, it is a test some shelter workers use to determine if a dog is adoptable or not. 

With bears and moose, they can resource guard if they want to. 

pr


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> I don't think resource guarding is a normal dog behavior. I think it is looked upon as a problem behavior. Actually, it is a test some shelter workers use to determine if a dog is adoptable or not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They can resource guard if they want to, but if I see PB walking down the street with a Bear or a Moose on a lead, I am calling 911, no matter how "under control" and well trained she thinks it is!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

*Poodlerunner I absolutely agree with you resource guarding is not acceptable or normal behavior in domestic dogs*. Lily and Peeves were raised together and they were trained very strongly to understand who controls what. They eat and drink from the same bowls, often at the same time.

A friend of mine had a rescued aussie who was afraid of men and a bad resource guarder when she got him. She worked very carefully with the dog and was able to develop a relationship in which the dog clearly adored her and seemed to trust her. She made fabulous progress with his fear of men and apparently had also made great progress with the resource guarding. I say apparently because out of the blue one day the dog bit her badly on the face when she picked up the dog's food dish. She was in the hospital and required sutures. She herself decided the dog had to be euthanized to protect her young nieces.

Any dog can be dangerous, even a tiny chihuahua if it has been poorly trained or mistreated. Some dogs are inherently much more so because of their breed's background (what the breed was developed to do) and/or their size and strength. Most people with pitties and pit mixes or other related breeds (amstaffs for example) don't really understand this as far as I have experienced.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I haven't responded to this thread yet because I don't really know what to think. Every time this discussion comes around, and it does quite often, it just reinforces my ambiguity on this topic.

I understand breed tendencies- dogs bred to fight other dogs and hold prey down, may have inherently more animal aggressive qualities. What I don't know is how easily that can be managed in a pet home, and what needs to happen to ensure safety of the dog and the family in that home. I think the idea of training and licensing owners is wonderful, and gets at the crux of the matter--responsible pet ownership. 

I can see that training and special requirements could be implemented successfully in my community, which is pretty progressive as far as dog ownership goes. But there are no loose, aggressive dogs here to start with, and there are no gangs, and relatively little crime. I'm not sure how easy it would be to implement this in rural Tennessee, inner city Detroit, or even downtown Albany, which is just 15 miles from me. That doesn't mean it's not something to shoot for, or that it's not a great idea. But there are socio- cultural barriers that need to be considered, and a lot of education that needs to happen.

So, is it just safer, easier to ban breeds? I don't know. From what I've read, BSL doesn't decrease dog bites, so it doesn't seem to work, and it's also questionable whether pit bulls are really the problem. I don't think we have good information to base decisions on, and there are reputable organizations endorsing both sides of the argument, which clouds the matter even further for me.

My concern is that if the pit bull is banned, the people that abuse this dog will just switch to another breed that they can manipulate to fulfill their own aggressive desires-- like the GSDs or Rottweilers. I've see pits that were aggressive in rescue that had to be PTS, but I've also seen hounds, retrievers, and even a little Pomeranian that were not safe to adopt out and had to be PTS.
So yes, every dog can bite- but a dog that's been bred to be aggressive I think will respond to triggers in the environment a lot quicker. 

An analogy might be that you can probably teach most any dog to retrieve eventually if you do the right training, but most labs will get it pretty quick with the right prompts. It would take a lot to get my dogs to the point where they would bite, even Lily with all the trauma she went through, never bit anyone. BUT- there is not a doubt in my mind that any of them would bite given the right stimulus. IMO, I think a dog breed with aggressive tendencies gets to a bite a heck of a lot quicker though than a dog like a poodle that was originally bred for different purposes. And that's what I see as the problem here. Can they be safely managed by the average pet owner?

The people I know that own pit bulls have wonderful dogs, but they are responsible dog owners. Outside of rescue, I have not had any experience with aggressive pit bulls. I also respect the perspective of people whose dogs or themselves have been the victims of aggressive pit bull attacks, and had that happened to me, I may have a totally different outlook. I just cringe when as a society we start doing this unilateral "every pit bull is bad"- that I don't think is the answer. I think this issue is incredibly complex, and there is no one, easy answer.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

The more we talk about this, the more I think that the clearest, fairest, easiest to implement solution would be an all Pits must be muzzled when outside of their homes law, with a hefty fine for violation, confiscation for repeat offenders. Everybody wins.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*Resource guarding** is absolutely normal canine behavior*. That it is normal does not mean that it isn't problematic in a human world. That is why some of us teach our dogs that all is not lost if they give us their stuff. Its easy to prevent if handled right. If it doesn't get taught, then it can be a terrible thing. With some dogs it doesn't have to be taught. The instinct may not be as pronounced and they have figured out that they'll be okay. Its certainly not worth the risk imo to not go through some exercises when they're puppies in giving and taking stuff.

If wolves or dogs living in the woods said "go ahead and take my bone" they wouldn't live long enough to reproduce and pass on their survival genes. It wouldn't have given them much of an evolutionary edge now, would it? In other words, it wouldn't have been advantageous to survival to peacefully give up their food to any would-be taker because they'd starve to death. And so would we or any animal. Its a strong survival instinct and that instinct hasn't disappeared. Here, read this if you don't believe me: Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Blog


And here: Position Statement on Pit Bulls | ASPCA 

Read this if you want to know anything about Pit Bulls. I see a lot of ignorance here in some of these posts and a lot of hysteria. If you hang onto that, you might be surprised one day when Pit Bulls aren't the trend of the times and another breed takes their place in popularity. And that breed is groomed to be more aggressive or aggressive to humans than they inherently are. Don't fool yourself into thinking Pit Bulls are the only dogs that inherited the predatory motor patterns from their wolf ancestors and are the only dogs that possess them. (Yada yada yada. I realize they were used for fighting and selected for that. But that does not include human aggression.) Or that they're the only dogs that are capable of strong biting and tenacity. If you think that, you have a lot to learn. In another decade it might be GSDs that are mistreated, bred by loads of lousy breeders and groomed to be aggressive. In past decades it was other breeds and Pit Bulls were never thought of the way they are today. This article ought to shed some light. But then, I'd be surprised if many of you read it. Its much more comfortable to keep your head in the sand.

Yes Tiny, I let my dogs play with a Pit Bull mix. I don't have contact with those other friends of my daughters anymore. Its been some years. I let my dogs play with any bigger dog if I see how they interact together, observe the temperament and behavior of each and I see that they are fine and supervise. I wouldn't _dream_ however, of turning my little dogs loose in a dog park though, where I don't know the dogs.) If I pass right by a large dog on the side walk, I pick up my tiny dogs. At a dog show, if I pass a large dog while walking around, I pick up Matisse. 

And as far as banning bears and moose, I'll spell it out more clearly to make it easier for you. I was referring to wild ones in the woods. We (society) or (Fish and Game) don't eliminate every last one of them because hikers might be mauled or killed. Do you want to ban coyotes and wolves too since they're dangerous and might kill your dog or you? Let's kill them all. How about SUVs? Visual: *Hysteria...mob-lynching.*

And with that, I've no more to add except this:



Jose` Lyric and my son's half Pit Bull (and in case you don't recognize the body language, no she's not biting them. She's playing with them)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*And another breed you probably love to hate...another "daaaaangerous" breed:*




Oh me, Oh my! Two dangerous dogs!



Oh Lordy! Two dangerous dogs mauling each other. Jose` desperately taking cover under the heat stove.



Dangerous Doberman tries to eat Chihuahua. Owner stands by and takes pictures!



Chihuahua retaliates!



Mean, hateful, dangerous dog



And that is that.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Being of a certain age, Training, a license, and liability insurance is required to operate an SUV - minimally the same should be required to handle a aggressive or guarding breed that is capable of inflicting severe injury.

And again, nobody is bringing a Bear or a Moose on a leash to Timi's karate class, so I don't have worry whether or not Yogi or 
Bullwinkle's Senior Citizen Mom has trained them to respond to "baked beans" or not.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

So, basically, naive and undereducated people get a dog based on its looks with little regard to the temperament or needs of the dog.

Pit bulls are the ones who seems to get the most press when they're mishandled, a bad fit for the family, or trained by accident or design to behave badly (we all know people who reinforce the wrong behavior and don't realize it).

We haven't yet gotten across to the public that if they want a companion dog, they should get a companion dog breed--say, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, not a Dalmatian or a Border Collie. 

I have some dear, otherwise bright but "older" neighbors who thought a Border Collie would settle in and replace their part-BC mix who died at an advanced age after spending many years just being an old companion dog. I did tell them that they had no idea what they were getting into, but since they were not first-time dog owners, they thought they could handle it. Actually, they stepped up to the plate pretty well, and even put the dog through chemo when necessary, and she's now an older dog content to lead them down the street on daily walks.

I'm preaching to the choir, of course, but you should never buy or adopt a dog for looks--though I don't object if you narrow down your choices to dogs that are more likely to behave the way that will fit into your lifestyle, and then refine your choices on appearance.

If I had not had the experience of working with my rat terriers, I would not been ready to accept the challenge of a standard poodle puppy. And even so, the retriever part of the poodle is making training obedience retrieves easier than it was while teaching the terriers. But the terriers are natural-born killers of vermin and I've taken trophies away to prove it. Actually, my poodle boy's grandfather is an experienced groundhog killer. Anyway, my poodle's a much happier dog than the terriers sometimes are.

Dogs are what we bred them to be. I can't see myself getting a bully breed, and when I see them, I watch my body language and put myself between it and my dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Dogs are not wolves.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

At the risk of being repetitive, The statistics speak for themselves. Dogs perceived as being "pit bulls" are a potentially dangerous breed, period. So are rotties and a few others but to a MUCH lesser extent.

*Published on Oct 9, 2012*
New Haven - But i thought Poodles were just as vicious right pit nutters? Fun Fact: Family PB killed a new born on 05/Oct/2012 & a baby boy on 25/Sep/2012! Poodles killed ZIP. Of the 4,310 dogs involved in fatal & disfiguring attacks on humans in the U.S. & Canada since Sep 1982 till now, 2,709 (63%) were PB; 535 were Rotties; Of the 513 human fatalities, 260 were killed by PB; 84 were killed by Rotties; Of the 2,433 people who were disfigured, 1,605 (65%) were disfigured by PB; 313 were disfigured by Rotties; PB--exclusive of their use in dogfighting--also inflict about 10 times as many fatal & disfiguring injuries on other pets & livestock as on humans, a pattern unique to the PB class.

A web search for nanny dogs gives a good Idea of the problem.


If I want to own a dangerous animal, your bill of rights gives you the freedom to do so. but I do have a responsibility to others to protect them from my animal.

"Pit Bulls" should not be banned. They should be declared a dangerous animal, with all the responsibilities that requires of the owner.

Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

From a review of the book, Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution 
by Raymond & Lorna Coppinger Book Review: Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution

“The significance of Coppinger's theory is twofold. One, they argue that dogs are a legitimate species in their own right and not merely a household version of a wolf. Two, this has implications for training, as many traditional training paradigms rely on understanding and treating dogs as if they were wolves. Coppingers argue that dogs don't form packs in the manner that wolves do and that dogs are about as similar to wolves as humans are to their ape ancestors. In the same way that one wouldn't attempt to raise a human baby as if it were a chimp, it would be equally senseless to rear a puppy as if it were a wolf.”


Once again dogs are not wolves nor should they be thought of as wolves in their rearing or training. There is too much evolution separating wolves from early dogs and then again much more evolutionary distance between early dogs and modern breeds.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i always believed the propaganda (that's what i now dub it) about it being the owner and not the dog - until we had a totally unprovoked attack where i live of an elderly woman who was simply taking her daily walk. a half-pit broke loose from its owner (who was, indeed, holding it by a leash) and simply jumped on the passerby, who was then bitten on her arm and leg - and she was lucky it was only that. despite the fact that her arms and legs were not bare, her doctor told her she would have scars for the rest of her life. i knew the woman who was attacked and the owners of the dog. i don't believe there was any blame to hand around. i do know that both the wife and daughter of the dog's household came to fear their once-beloved pet based on what happened. it is like discovering that your child is a psychopath. 

denial never helped anyone. if humans are to blame, then it is for breeding dogs for aggression and for insisting on having them on the same conditions as a lap dog. is there such a term as common sense impaired? because that's what i think is involved.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It is normal behavior for ALL animals to guard their food. I watched my tropical fish squabble over food sometimes. It is common sense even...that if an animal relinquished its food without so much as a growl or pinned ears and a bite from a horse or threat of a kick, it would not survive to pass on it's genes. We guard our possessions don't we? It is unpleasant for our domestic dogs to guard their valuables against us or other dogs and can vary from mild to _very_ serious if not handled correctly. Okay, I give up. Maybe these people with advanced degrees in behavior can explain it better or in simpler terms about resource guarding in domestic dogs. 


3.02 - Resource Guarding | Dog Star Daily

How to React When Your Dog Begins Resource Guarding Against Other Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article

Food Guarding | ASPCA

How to Prevent Resource Guarding in a Multiple-dog Household | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


http://4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf.#sthash.CPyW8Dtr.dpuf


01 Resource Guarding - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!


Ian Dunbar Videos on resource guarding - Bing


articles on resource guarding normal canine behavior - Bing

The Dog Trainer : Resource Guarding ? What It Is, How to Prevent It :: Quick and Dirty Tips ?

And I've read Coppingers books a long time ago. Dogs still retain natural survival instincts, just as we all do. I never see dogs as that close to wolves and have always said they should have a completely separate designation.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Poodelebeguiled- those are good links, thank you. 

Maybe I'm not really that confused by this issue, I think it's more that it is just so complex and to get anywhere, we need to change how people approach pet ownership. I do believe the underlying breed traits matter. They're not the whole package, and each dog is an individual, but they are part of the package. A responsible owner can manage almost any dog if they do the right things, but as mhv said, too many people don't think of the particular needs of the breed, or breed mix they are getting. 

Lily is referred to in her agility class as "the little circus dog" because of her coordinated, prancy, twirly tendencies (they are so adorable!). I didn't teach her any of that, the way she instinctually moves speaks to her heritage- and is part of what makes her, and poodles in general, good at agility. But she would not excel in Schutzhund work!

I balk at the idea of BSL- it just seems so Draconian. I think it's a good idea for ALL dog owners to pay higher licensing fees. I now pay $6.50 per dog, what if that was increased to $100, or even $50? Countries that have high license fees in general, have better attitudes toward pet ownership. Maybe that money could be used for education, training, and establishing programs that support responsible dog ownership.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

when golda meier was prime minister of israel, there was a discussion about women being attacked in the streets when out after dark. one of the proposals for dealing with this issue was then a 10pm curfew for women. meier said, "that is punishing the victim, not those who would commit the crime." i feel the same way about raising fees for every owner. the same way i feel about charging non-refundable fees/deposits for rentals to people who have pets. where i live, even vehicle registration fees are differentiated by car size and weight, with the target being not only to collect fees, but also to get those putting more stress on roads to pay a reasonable share of the costs of road maintenance and repair. not everyone lacks common sense. policies should be directed at those who do and put others in danger, thus incurring a cost to society.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> From a review of the book, Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution
> by Raymond & Lorna Coppinger Book Review: Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution
> 
> 
> That book looks like an interesting read- seems like it would spark some thought.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I have an issue with the idea of additional testing and/or licensing of Pit Bull (and P/B appearing mixes) owners. SF has a gazillion Pits/Pit mixes and plenty are owned by those wanting to look tough. By no means are all that way. I do think we may have a law requiring Pits/Pit mixes to be altered, but don't know much about it-should look it up.

Anyway, my issue with licensing such owners regardless of process is I liken it to new rules put out about 18 or so months ago regarding shipping and sales of puppies, as well as allowable numbers of bitches in homes before having to throw them all out into kennels (USDA? and I know I'm off a bit on the details, but it was discussed here and elsewhere).

Those new rules hamper legitimate, law-abiding breeders. The high volume and bybers can skirt the law or run underneath it, and actually the high volume millers have their own regulations already. So the new rules hurt responsible breeders who didn't need the rules anyway.

I see the same situation here, and for a time worked with one 'tough guy' into Pits and Rotts (actually he really was tough; there was a lot we didn't chat about and he had some history though also had a very nice side and a native intelligence but was unschooled and proud to be so, sadly). Now while he is someone at whom such regulations might be directed, after many dog chats with him, I'm pretty sure he would not have been open to them and could have pretty easily stayed underground to avoid the rules.

Then others who get their Pits/Pit mixes from legit rescues such as the highly reputable Bad Rap Home | BAD RAP would be the types likely to follow the regulations. And while that might help prevent some attacks, it would mean the rules still wouldn't touch those who really need them. Also the quiet PB owner such as a couple who've had children mauled to death in their homes here--those people also would be able to fly under the radar and they are just stupid about bully breed management.

Sorry so long-winded and I don't have answers, but do have strong feelings about yet more laws because I don't think they will restrict those who need restricting.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> That book looks like an interesting read- seems like it would spark some thought.


I found it tremendously fascinating Caroline. Some people find it way too detailed and dragging. But I love science and details are important in some things and if they're not important, they still fascinate me. lol. It includes one theory of evolution of dogs but there may be some holes in it according to other theories which I've researched. I loved reading this book and in fact, used them as a reference in my own book.

Here...a conversation:

http://www.workingdogweb.com/Coppinger.htm


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there are loopholes and exceptions so we should do nothing? and i did follow the discussion at pf re regulating the number of dogs a breeder could have without being federally licensed. i'll repeat what i've said elsewhere, the thrust of that legislation was to try to control internet puppy sales by breeders who had found a way around subjecting themselves to licensing and inspections. it was not perfect - no legislation ever is - but at least a foundation was laid for trying to stop shipment of puppies that arrived ill - or proved not even to be what was described by the seller. in all the brouha at pf, i heard no one talk about the welfare of the dogs involved, just about what breeders want. and guess who contributed funds to opposing the legislation? the goldendoodle club.

that's similar to what i'm hearing here with regard to known aggressive breeds. why are they known? it's not just the media. look at the insurance industry. those are bottom line numbers. insurers all have access to the same large database. (i know this because my condo association is involved in large insurance policies and i have had a number of conversations with our agent on various policies.) each insurer makes a decision on what risk it is willing to take, but they are all looking at the same data. when an insurer tells you it will not sell you homeowner's insurance if you own certain breeds, they are not responding to apocryphal stories. they are looking at actual costs incurred as a result of injuries caused by that breed. keep in mind that this is still a smaller segment of reality than exists, because, after all, not everyone is a homeowner or renter who carries insurance. nonetheless, this involves real data and real costs incurred. and behind those costs is someone badly injured or even killed.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> Dogs are not wolves.


Did I miss something? Anyway, you're absolutely right.

I dug up some remarks on the PBS Nova documentary "Dogs Decoded" that show very clearly, at least, that wolves are also not dogs. I found this review of the program--I couldn't find the same level of detail on the PBS site.

Third, I was fascinated by the study done by eastern European (Hungarian?) researchers who raised puppies and wolves from infancy. Drawing from the premise that dogs and wolves are 99.98% genetically similar, the scientists wanted to know if you raised a baby wolf as a dog if it would then become like a dog, i.e., domestic. First, the scientists hand-raised puppies. The puppies lived in their homes, slept in their beds, etc. After they raised a litter of puppies this way, the researchers raised a litter of wolf cubs in the same way. At first, the wolves didn’t seem much different from the puppies. The wolves snuggled up to them when they took them outside, their play seemed to resemble the play of puppies, and so forth. But by the time they hit seven or eight weeks, it became clear that these wolves were not going to magically become dogs.

One of the most striking examples of this difference was a test with puppies and wolf cubs of the same age in a controlled environment. In separate rooms, the puppy and the wolf cub are both introduced to a foreign object (a robotic toy dog that barks). The puppy is curious and goes up to sniff it; the wolf cubs shrink back in fear and try to claw their way out of the room. Next, the researchers test to see if the puppy and wolf cub will respond to a human’s physical cues. The puppies make eye contact with the humans and seem to easily follow the human’s hand signal to a cup on the floor. The wolves, however, never make eye contact with the humans and try to run away. Later, the film jumps to one of the researchers with an adolescent wolf in her home. This animal is a total menace–leaping on counters, trying to knock her over, totally unresponsive to her correction–and can hardly be trusted indoors, even though he was raised in the home with this woman. Wolves are not dogs and dogs are not wolves; don’t try to treat one like the other. . . .​(source: https://thedoggerel.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/thoughts-on-dogs-decoded/)

I was so impressed with the documentary I bought the DVD.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't see increased license fees as punitive, I see them as legitimizing dog ownership, providing a value to it. It would also be a way to provide funds for education, which in the end will change many things. We're talking about aggressive dogs here, but many animal welfare issues that impact society will only change with increased awareness.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

as someone who does agree we have to pay taxes to have the kind of society we want and agrees that user fees make sense, i do see undifferentiated fees for dogs as punitive when the costs to society are most likely to come from dogs bred for aggression. so we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Patk, you have excellent points, and as I said, I don't have the answers.

Just seems to me many of the people at whom the regs would be directed and at whom the insurance rules are directed, are not the types to pay attention nor if they even need homeowner insurance, to be up front about what breed they own.

What I'm saying is more my impression for SF where renters predominate due to not having down payments of six figures nor six figure incomes to support the mortgages (I'm included in that group). Maybe it's different in other places where people tend to own homes more than here, so my opinion may be provincial, in the worst sort of definition way .


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Carolinek said:


> I don't see increased license fees as punitive, I see them as legitimizing dog ownership, providing a value to it. It would also be a way to provide funds for education, which in the end will change many things. We're talking about aggressive dogs here, but many animal welfare issues that impact society will only change with increased awareness.


For those willing to follow the rules and license, I could see it helping if a municipality maybe created a victims' fund for people injured by bully breed type dogs, though applying the breed or type criteria might get a bit murky. If on appearance alone, well, we all know how one person's hound is another's bully mix and so forth. It's a game some shelters and rescues even play to increase the pool of adopters.

If there were a way to impart information and understanding to those who don't want it or use it now, that would be great. The people who oughtn't own and certainly ought not to breed the bully breeds/types aren't listening. They're just owning and breeding them and under the radar .

I'm blathering, obviously, and need to go do something other than type here right now. I think I'll log into my online class and finish the week's lessons now .


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

streetcar, you can tell by the discussion that we are not going to come up with a single answer here. yes, there are always people who don't think the rules apply to them. (you learn this pretty fast being on a condo board.) but i doubt things get better by then not having rules at all. what's sad is i think i'm hearing that there are folks here who don't think that facts about breed traits apply if it's their dog. for sure with that attitude, we will never get to any kind of reasonable solution.

it's been a long time since i lived in the bay area, but sf has always been more expensive. and i have always had a lot of sympathy for renters. that's one of the reasons i oppose nonrefundable pet deposits. not everyone is reachable as a result of decent treatment, but many are and that's the group we should be encouraging.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Pit Bulls have become a CULT dog. Western societies have found it difficult to impossible to control cults. "Join our cult, have a pit bull" is the message out there everywhere. The web is rife with misinformation and positive messages for prospective pit bull owners. The best that can be done is to have the truth, the REAL statistics and correct description of the "breed" available to prospective owners. A good friend of mine who lives a long way off, inherited a pit bull from her daughter (common problem) The dog was well behaved and very cute and loving. But it killed her existing JRT, after a year of playing and getting along well with it. Later it attacked another dog while leashed and injured it. She had become fond of the dog but had to have it "put down" "Pit Bulls" are *potentially *highly aggressive. They are *time bombs, *some never go off. They need to be regarded as dangerous and not as "nanny dogs"

I say "Keep your "pit bull" safe and keep us all safe from it"


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Wow! What a thread!!

I am not an expert on anything dog related. I have done some research on dogs, dog handling/training, and some history. What I have found out is we as a species created the domesticated dog. We have bred this animal to fill our needs - hunting, retrieving, guarding, alarming, companionship, and for entertainment in a circus or a fighting pit.

When there are people who are attracted to violence, there will be violence. From the research I have done, that is where the Pit Bull comes from. Please take note I wrote "people" not men!! I know women who love to watch violence and I don't know why.

More "sophisticated" people get their kicks from American Football, boxing, wrestling, MMA, and I'm sure there is a lot more "sanctioned" forms of violence. There is dog fighting, cockfighting and I am sure a lot of other types of animal fighting going on perpetuated by people.

Personally I am not drawn to violence that is real, where there is a high potential for serious injury. I preferred the choreographed, such as movies about boxing (Rocky), or football or any other where there may be some choreographed violence as part of the story. 

Does this mean I will not defend myself, or anyone else in harms way without the use of violence if needed?? No! I will defend myself, my dog, my friends and strangers if they are being attacked.

If laws are passed for licensing bully breeds etc., they will be honored by the law abiding citizen. If they don't do this now, I think shelters and rescues should require potential adopters about responsible dog ownership, the rewards from organized training classes and about breed tendencies. I bet people think more about a car they will buy then the dog they will live with.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

*Our &quot;favourite&quot; dogs in the news again*

Walking Naira in my friend's neighborhood and had to eventually pick her up trying to walk by a house who had 5 pit bulls in their back yard with a fence that they were actively trying to jump over. The fence wasn't that high. They were barking, growling and going wild. Looking directly at her. I can't imagine what would have happened if they escaped


On our way back we walked across the opposite street and talked to another person walking her dog that said everyone in their neighborhood avoids that house. A whole neighborhood has to live in fear of these 5 pit bulls. Glad I don't live there


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I still say a muzzle law outside the home! What objection could there be to that? I wouldn't mind even if Timi was required to be muzzled outside the house - she would get used to it just like she did a collar!
As an added benefit all of the scoff-laws would be easy for law enforcement to spot and penalize!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

We are talking about dog aggression here, but I'd like to go back to the root cause of this issue--irresponsible pet ownership. There are many developed nations with far lower per capita income than the US that do not have the problems we have with animal welfare, but are very comfortable charging moderate fees for licensing. We should look at that, is there relationship? Maybe it has nothing to do with it, but if we could use those extra funds to bring about a more enlightened population, maybe some of these problems would go away, or at least lessen. 

I want to know how the US can get to the same place as Norway, Germany, Sweden- to name a few. Places where they don't have issues with homeless dogs, and training a dog is an integral part of owning it. I don't know how we get there, but I do know we are not doing it right presently. However, breed restrictions are also common in countries that don't have as many problems with animal welfare, and that's a piece we do need to consider. 

The US is a different culture and what works in Norway or Germany may not work here. But we need to do something. What that something is, is the piece that eludes me.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

A lot of reading to this thread and some excellent points from all positions. My thoughts on this issue are as conflicted as many of the opinions voiced here. I am against blanket statements on anything or anybody, but... I am afraid of pitbulls or any pitbull cross. I'm not sure if it's the breed itself or the owners I'm Leary of, you just hear so much about them. I do find it amazing that people who know their dog is not friendly to other dogs, men, kids, or whatever, take them out and into public areas where they are certain to encounter them. It's happened 3 times lately in the pet store we frequent, one was a pitbull, one a German Shepard and the other a shar pei. The only thing these dogs had in common was irresponsible owners.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> We are talking about dog aggression here, but I'd like to go back to the root cause of this issue--irresponsible pet ownership. There are many developed nations with far lower per capita income than the US that do not have the problems we have with animal welfare, but are very comfortable charging moderate fees for licensing. We should look at that, is there relationship? Maybe it has nothing to do with it, but if we could use those extra funds to bring about a more enlightened population, maybe some of these problems would go away, or at least lessen.
> 
> I want to know how the US can get to the same place as Norway, Germany, Sweden- to name a few. Places where they don't have issues with homeless dogs, and training a dog is an integral part of owning it. I don't know how we get there, but I do know we are not doing it right presently. However, breed restrictions are also common in countries that don't have as many problems with animal welfare, and that's a piece we do need to consider.
> 
> The US is a different culture and what works in Norway or Germany may not work here. But we need to do something. What that something is, is the piece that eludes me.


i really have to disagree that the root cause of the problem of dog aggression is irresponsible ownership when it comes to pitbulls. that's the continuing argument/premise of those who refuse to recognize the key factor of breed traits.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

From Luce: "I bet people think more about a car they will buy then the dog they will live with."

So true- I often say that people put more time into shopping for a pair of shoes they will wear once than for the dog that they will live with for 15 years! And therein lies much of the problem.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

patk said:


> i really have to disagree that the root cause of the problem of dog aggression is irresponsible ownership when it comes to pitbulls. that's the continuing argument/premise of those who refuse to recognize the key factor of breed traits.


IMO, irresponsible pet ownership includes failure to recognize breed traits. The responsible owner provides an environment that supports the tendencies of their dog.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

"IMO, irresponsible pet ownership includes failure to recognize breed traits. The responsible owner provides an environment that supports the tendencies of their dog."

Or their Lion, Tiger, Gorilla or Pit Bull

Eric.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

carolinek, i can appreciate what you're saying. but i am afraid that the term responsible ownership has come to be imbued with the idea no dog is outside the circle if the right owner is involved. sadly, i doubt that that is true. we have always known it isn't true about individual dogs with serious problems, but are unwilling to say it isn't true about a whole breed. that is understandable, but at the same time does not deal with the issue of what to do.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Pat k- I don't think any dog is outside of the circle. There are dogs that are too big of a liability and the right thing to do is to hold them close and let them go into the great beyond. Thankfully, I've never had to make that decision with my own dogs. 

I have relatives who owned a cocker that was the meanest dog I ever met. He probably was a product of the cocker rage that was in some lines, as they had him from a puppy and are the most wonderful people who never would have done anything to abuse a dog. But he was a real meanie! They kept him, and he lived his life with them, but I'm not sure I would have done the same, and I consider myself a pretty responsible owner. He bit- snapped at one of my kids when they were small and I caught it before the bite, but he did bite other people. 

So even a "soft dog" can present this problem. My grandfather bred GSDs for police work, and one of them attacked my mother and left her with lifelong scars. Consequently, I was raised with a very healthy respect of the aggressive potential of dogs, and was told as a kid to never go near a dog's food or bone. Maybe a bit overkill on my mothers part- but not bad advice, and preferable to these parents that allow their kids to do anything to their dogs- like they're some kind of a stuffed animal.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think that's the dividing line, carolinek. i can understand that point of view, though i don't agree with it. in that case, however, i would say tp's suggestion that all dogs be muzzled in public may be the most "reasonable" alternative. either that or as we move to more open carry gun laws, there will be a lot more dogs being shot. that's what the attack on her dog drove mehpenn to, if i am recalling what she said correctly, and i do expect to see that happening more and more.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> i think that's the dividing line, carolinek. i can understand that point of view, though i don't agree with it. in that case, however, i would say tp's suggestion that all dogs be muzzled in public may be the most "reasonable" alternative. either that or as we move to more open carry gun laws, there will be a lot more dogs being shot. that's what the attack on her dog drove mehpenn to, if i am recalling what she said correctly, and i do expect to see that happening more and more.



Well the muzzle would certainly be preferable to breed banning, confiscating and putting down any violators, which some localities have indeed done.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Tiny Poodle I totally agree with you, on the muzzle they will get used to it and if that were the law I would do it on my toy and teacup. Great idea


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

glorybeecosta said:


> Tiny Poodle I totally agree with you, on the muzzle they will get used to it and if that were the law I would do it on my toy and teacup. Great idea



Not saying that EVERY dog should wear a muzzle. If they think it too difficult to decide which dogs are dangerous breeds, they could make a size limit. But if it had to be, I would have no complaints about muzzling mine.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

A muzzle is preferable to euthanizing entire breeds of dogs, but my hope would be to find another solution. I wouldn't want to muzzle my dogs. We go for long walks, I bring water- how would they ever drink? I don't know much about muzzles, but I wouldn't want them to be part of my dogs' lives.


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

I was curious what the pit bull people talked about on their forum so I decided to check it out. Was just reading randomly when I came to this: 

Violent Tendencies. - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums

This is their own world - only three people replied and no one seemed too freaked out. It is a very different dog mentality then we have.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

The Opera Poodle said:


> I was curious what the pit bull people talked about on their forum so I decided to check it out. Was just reading randomly when I came to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, anybody who would allow their small dogs to play with a Pit or Pit mix just because they think they "know the dog and it's behavior" is patently insane.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

The mentality is that of ignorance. If you surf the web you will find numerous references as to how nice the temperament of the pit bull is. They DO have a "nice" temperament. But their mood can change dangerously in seconds. No one knows when, no one knows where, no one knows why. But they do. I have it on good advice that some don't. Sometimes the time-bomb does not go off. Would you trust your children furry or otherwise with them?????
Eric.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

If just *one dog *is saved by this thread, then I will have been of help. I worked in emergency services for 30 years. We serve to help. Even if it is a pit bull saved I will feel just as vindicated. After all they are a great family dog?

Eric.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

*Our &quot;favourite&quot; dogs in the news again*



ericwd9 said:


> The mentality is that of ignorance. If you surf the web you will find numerous references as to how nice the temperament of the pit bull is. They DO have a "nice" temperament. But their mood can change dangerously in seconds. No one knows when, no one knows where, no one knows why. But they do. I have it on good advice that some don't. Sometimes the time-bomb does not go off. Would you trust your children furry or otherwise with them?????
> Eric.



You know sometimes it may be a mood change to aggression, but I have the feeling that often, it is just a primal trigger in their brain that get switched on that tells them to target, chomp, and lock. I noticed that in one of the videos that you posted where the Pit was locked on to a a Chow type dog - during and after it was removed, it's body language was loose, soft, and happy - not at all aggressive. I saw the same with the Pit that wanted to chomp Timi - a totally happy, relaxed, playful dog who felt that smashing Timi in it's jaws would be the right thing to do. Also saw it in a Pit puppy in my elevator once who responded to my saying hello by leaping up and taking the lower half of my face in it's mouth (thankfully gravity took it down before it locked ). 

We have all seen our dogs perform instinctual behaviors that nobody taught them like leg lifting, burying food, herding - why is it so difficult for some to believe that this "target, chomp and lock" behavior is hard wired in the breed's brain no mater how they are raised because that genetic tendency was selected out for? 
Teaka buries food - not all of her food, not everyday, but every once in awhile something that I can't see triggers that behavior which is hard wired into her brain, and some piece of food gets buried in her dog bed. She certainly has never had to worry about having enough food ever in her life, yet there is something in her genetic programming that gets triggered to tell her that she had best save food, and how she should do it, and I believe that there is also something in the Pit brain that is hard wired and can be triggered that tells them to do their thing - target, chomp, and lock -and no human being can ever predict when that might occur.
With any other "dangerous" breeds we can see the aggression building, and we have opportunities to diffuse it, but this Pit thing, that is an instinctual behavior that we cannot predict nor control, which is in a category of dangerous all it's own.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I had a minipoo who buried excess food in my bed!!! never worked out if the food was for me or for later and her? She did not sleep in my bed and normally would not jump up there?? Primal behaviour??
Eric


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> I had a minipoo who buried excess food in my bed!!! never worked out if the food was for me or for later and her? She did not sleep in my bed and normally would not jump up there?? Primal behaviour??
> Eric



I had a problem with Teaka peeing in my bed when she was younger. It was a tough one for me to figure out - she was otherwise perfectly pad trained, and it would happen once, maybe every three or four weeks.
When I finally caught her in the act, I discovered that she had buried a greenie in the blanket, and I think was marking the spot with pee! From then on we adapted an "eat it or loose it policy" and she never ever peed on my bed again!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> A muzzle is preferable to euthanizing entire breeds of dogs, but my hope would be to find another solution. I wouldn't want to muzzle my dogs. We go for long walks, I bring water- how would they ever drink? I don't know much about muzzles, but I wouldn't want them to be part of my dogs' lives.



I have never bought a muzzle but I think their are many designs that allow them to pant and drink freely.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Yup, anybody who would allow their small dogs to play with a Pit or Pit mix just because they think they "know the dog and it's behavior" is patently insane.








*This is how she's been every minute of every day for 15, soon going on 16 years. I'm still waiting for her with baited breath to leap up and start attacking one of the dogs. Not. *



*Before you fly off the handle in hysterics, no, she didn't attack and kill the fish. My son caught them with a graphite fishing pole. That adoring look exemplifies her loving temperament.*



So, I'm insane huh? I've forgotten more about dogs and their behavior than you'll ever know. 

This dog of my son's is one of the nicest, most lovely dogs I've ever known. She's extraordinarily affectionate, willing, and the smartest, quickest dog I've ever met. She is gentle and trustworthy with any human being and any dog and has been for nearly 15 years. She was acquired after an abusive situation as a very young puppy. And still....trusting and confident. What a temperament to have come through what she did virtually unscathed. 

She only got in a fight once when another dog attacked her and it was more of a scrap. It didn't go on and on and she came away with a chip out of her ear. 

She lived with me for a few years in Idaho. She and my other dogs, (large and small) my niece's dog, my foster dog all went hiking together, off leash in the mountains where I lived nearly every day. They all hung out together on my lawn in the summer and in winter they'd come in out of the snow and cold and cuddle up by the fire as you saw in my pictures. 

My Doberman and she were best buddies for as long as I had him and my Lab too, not to mention the two Chihuahuas and NOW my Poodles. She's sweet to them and they thoroughly enjoy her. I do watch them because Matisse can be exceptionally annoying and sometimes I need to steer him away from bothering her and Jose`. But she is indeed very tolerant. Never once, one indication of anything but love, _high, high _threshold of tolerance, joy, fun, and willingness to please. 

You should see how she takes a treat out of a child's hand. There is no dog that I've ever seen take it so gently. She takes her time, slowly putting her lips up to the hand and ever so gently, as a feather...takes it in her lips. It's the most interesting and really unusual thing I've ever seen out of even gentle dogs. Jose` is a barracuda and so was my Doberman. I've worked with them, but they never had it naturally and Jose needs reminding. Not my son's dog. She has it naturally. She's intuitive and so connected with humans...everyone loves her when they meet her. They comment on what a nice dog she is.

She and my 5 lb Chihuahua, Chulita, who lived to be almost 14 were the about the same age and Jose` is 2 years younger. They've known each other all that time, lived with each other for a few years and when they didn't still visited each other several times a week. My son still stops by about 4 times a week for a quick visit. Sometimes we all just hang out, sometimes take the dogs for a walk together. 

It is possible that this dog of my son's isn't as much Pit Bull as we guessed. Or any. But we think she is because she looks like it in her face and head a little bit. And her back legs, though not as muscular. And because there were a bunch of loose Pit Bulls in this crummy neighborhood on the reservation where she was found originally....in a black plastic garbage bag in a ditch with her dead litter mates at 4 weeks of age. Apparently someone in the neighborhood had Pit Bull puppies born. So we sort of put 2 and 2 together. She also looks a little GSD to me in her muzzle. But I can't know for sure. Someone got her, abused the **** out of her and gave her up to my son. She use to submissive pee for a couple years but got over that. She was terrified of having her nails clipped and became crazy. But she got over that too with my help. You couldn't guess that she was abused if you met her. For many years now, she has been very confident and enthusiastic, very playful, very fast runner, and trusting, darling. She's been one of the_ best _dogs in my family ever. At 15 years old, I think I know this dog and dogs in general after having them and working with many over my 55 years of having dogs and for having gone to school for the study of animal behavior. Yes, I know this dog and my own dogs well enough to feel fine with them together. 

Of course you don't leave two Pit Bulls or two male dogs when one is a Pit Bull together unsupervised. I wouldn't house two of them. Too much hassle to crate and rotate. I wouldn't house two male Dobermans together. It doesn't make them evil animals. They do not belong in a dog park. 

But they don't ALL act violently, attacking every dog they see. People are stupid in how they manage them, how they breed them, how they own them and_ how _"they" misunderstand them. They are not monsters. I get so sick of the breed hatred from _supposed_ animal lovers. Of course they shouldn't be allowed to attack people or other animals. That's not their fault. Their personality _tendencies_ are in their genes. But their behavior itself is NOT...just like riding a bike is not genetic. Behavior is epi-genetic. It's their stupid owners' fault bad things happen. Punish them, not the dogs. And don't punish the responsible owners just so you can get the rotten ones. What does that make you? 

IF you would read the position statement about Pit Bulls from the ASPCA, and all the other highly esteemed experts that had more thorough information about these dogs, instead of a bunch of hysteria-filled, media-like sensationalists, you might not remain so uninformed.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I do not see the pit in her, her nose looks more German Shepard, I notice pits have more a square jaw line, or the ones I have encounter do. I had a dog that looked just like her as a kid, a real sweetheart. As long as I do not see the head and face of a pit I am ok, if I see it I am out of there. 

I had a matched set of Dobs, black and tan female and one male, and they were just like my poodles. But people were terrified of them.

I do not allow any big dog near my girls and with small dogs I am right there, they would not know what to do if even a small dog jumped on them. A big dog just playing could hurt or kill them


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> glorybeecosta said:
> 
> 
> > I do not see the pit in her, her nose looks more German Shepard, I notice pits have more a square jaw line, or the ones I have encounter do. I had a dog that looked just like her as a kid, a real sweetheart. As long as I do not see the head and face of a pit I am ok, if I see it I am out of there.
> ...


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

glorybeecosta said:


> I do not see the pit in her, her nose looks more German Shepard, I notice pits have more a square jaw line, or the ones I have encounter do. I had a dog that looked just like her as a kid, a real sweetheart. As long as I do not see the head and face of a pit I am ok, if I see it I am out of there.
> 
> I had a matched set of Dobs, black and tan female and one male, and they were just like my poodles. But people were terrified of them.
> 
> I do not allow any big dog near my girls and with small dogs I am right there, they would not know what to do if even a small dog jumped on them. A big dog just playing could hurt or kill them


I ont see any dog in there resembling a pb either.

Pr


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I see some rude personal attacks at me, but no Pitbulls.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I see some rude personal attacks at me, but no Pitbulls.


Ditto and not just here.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

PBG, I have to admit to not reading your entire post. I skipped right to the pictures . Do you really think that dog you were holding up as a shining example of pb mixes s representative of the dogs we are fearing? 

Pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Two pictures of Pit Bulls taken off Internet: I see the similar wide head across the top, the ears, the wrinkles in the forehead, the eyes a little. 






My son's dog with Lyric. I don't know if you can see her head that well here. 



My Lab (the furthest one back and going the wrong way lol) and my niece's dog (in front...kind of similar to my son's dog who wasn't in this picture) did great with the wee ones too...a lot of years together. And no injuries _ever_.




That second stock photo looks almost exactly like her. No, perhaps not a shining example. But then again a Pit Bull is not a breed. There is no breed standard. No, she may be mixed with other things. But we always thought because of the circumstances in that neighborhood and her looks that she may well be mixed with a Pit Bull type of dog.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Two pictures of Pit Bulls taken off Internet: I see the similar wide head across the top, the ears, the wrinkles in the forehead, the eyes a little.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, really. Its hard to follow when in one sentence you make the point that there is no such breed as a pit bull and then tell me that the dog in your pictures is a PB mix. 

Pr


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> You know sometimes it may be a mood change to aggression, but I have the feeling that often, it is just a primal trigger in their brain that get switched on that tells them to target, chomp, and lock. I noticed that in one of the videos that you posted where the Pit was locked on to a a Chow type dog - during and after it was removed, it's body language was loose, soft, and happy - not at all aggressive. I saw the same with the Pit that wanted to chomp Timi - a totally happy, relaxed, playful dog who felt that smashing Timi in it's jaws would be the right thing to do. Also saw it in a Pit puppy in my elevator once who responded to my saying hello by leaping up and taking the lower half of my face in it's mouth (thankfully gravity took it down before it locked ).
> 
> We have all seen our dogs perform instinctual behaviors that nobody taught them like leg lifting, burying food, herding - why is it so difficult for some to believe that this "target, chomp and lock" behavior is hard wired in the breed's brain no mater how they are raised because that genetic tendency was selected out for?
> Teaka buries food - not all of her food, not everyday, but every once in awhile something that I can't see triggers that behavior which is hard wired into her brain, and some piece of food gets buried in her dog bed. She certainly has never had to worry about having enough food ever in her life, yet there is something in her genetic programming that gets triggered to tell her that she had best save food, and how she should do it, and I believe that there is also something in the Pit brain that is hard wired and can be triggered that tells them to do their thing - target, chomp, and lock -and no human being can ever predict when that might occur.
> With any other "dangerous" breeds we can see the aggression building, and we have opportunities to diffuse it, but this Pit thing, that is an instinctual behavior that we cannot predict nor control, which is in a category of dangerous all it's own.


i think you have made an excellent point. it may have been konrad lorenz in "on aggression" who talked about doves (you know, the bird of peace) having no off switch once a fight begins. if there's a fight, it's to the death. it's part of the species.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> I'm sorry, really. Its hard to follow when in one sentence you make the point that there is no such breed as a pit bull and then tell me that the dog in your pictures is a PB mix.
> 
> Pr


I'm sorry that you're so confused. I'll try again. There is no single, fixed breed accepted by any breed club with a breed standard for what is commonly referred to as a Pit Bull. There are breeds which _are_ homogenized and accepted as breeds called American Pit Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Terrier. Along with those breeds were other breeds of the Bull dog type. These dogs are what were used to produce these dogs they call Pit Bulls. The Pit Bull has no official breed standard. But people refer to dogs that look something like the above pictured as Pit Bulls. _Again,_ _something _like them. Technically a Pit Bull could be any dog that can do the job of bear baiting (originally) or fighting dogs (later). With the word, "Bull" in that description, I assume most of these dogs had some kind of Bull dog in their make-up since they were the best at their job. 

So to simplify things...No, there is no breed standard, no real uniformity. But there is a _type_ of dog with a_ type _of look. Not the same look exactly necessarily as another. But with traits that can make them good at their job. You often see a muscular dog with a broad head and broad jaw, short ears which are sometimes cropped, sometimes not. You may see a real resemblance to some of the bully breeds because they are in their make up. But no, there is not enough homogeny to be accepted as a breed by any breed club, such as the AKC.

So, I think and my son thinks that his dog has some physical and temperamental traits that are like a dog that may have been the "TYPE" that was used in bear baiting minus the dog-dog aggression_ tendency_. They call that type a Pit Bull and as I said, it has some common traits but not uniformly so. 

And this is what makes for trouble when there's breed discrimination legislation. The powers to be can (and DO) take any dog that is muscular, has a broad head, has a handful of bully-looking traits and it might be a Labrador mix or a Newfoundland mix or a Boxer mix...and they can say, this dog has to be killed. Or banned. Or muzzled. It's ridiculous!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Beautiful Doberman PBG. Your "Pit Bull" does not look very like one to me?

One dog, well observed, is not at all representative of a breed. The American Pit Bull is a recognised breed here as is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (I was born in Staffordshire) If one was to put up any single poodle as representitive of their breed, it would be most misleading. 

We most all, love our dogs and would defend them. But putting up one, well behaved, cross-breed dog, as a shining representative of one of the "possible" contributing breeds in that dog, is not the action of a person well educated in dog Psychopathology.

Beside this, some pit bulls do live out their lives without aggressive incidents. but this is not truly representative of the breeds.

The discussion here, has been, what can be done by dog owners or legislative bodies to reduce the reported prevalence of aggressive breed attacks.

Defending ones own, isolated, dog, contributes little to this argument. Even if it were a full pit bull there would still be no real defence of the whole breed.

Eric.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> Beautiful Doberman PBG. Your "Pit Bull" does not look very like one to me?
> 
> One dog, well observed, is not at all representative of a breed. The American Pit Bull is a recognised breed here as is the Staffordshire Bull Terrier (I was born in Staffordshire) If one was to put up any single poodle as representitive of their breed, it would be most misleading.
> 
> ...



Very well said Eric!


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

*Our &quot;favourite&quot; dogs in the news again*

Poodlebeguiled - if there is pit in that dog it is very watered down.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled, I have been thinking about your comment on breed hatred. I don't think I'm guilty of hating the breed, although my husband and Scottie were savaged by two of them. I do think that they are not as innocuous as the ASPCA statement makes them seem. It takes an extraordinarily vigilant and committed owner to own one. And yes, the same can be said for many breeds, but they are not the ones that are in the news. Or have their own reality TV show. Most owners are not competent or responsible enough to own them and that is what frightens me. I watched a YouTube demo of how to use a break stick. That should be mandatory viewing at all ASPCA adoptions.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm sorry that you're so confused. I'll try again. There is no single, fixed breed accepted by any breed club with a breed standard for what is commonly referred to as a Pit Bull. There are breeds which _are_ homogenized and accepted as breeds called American Pit Bull Terrier and Staffordshire Terrier. Along with those breeds were other breeds of the Bull dog type. These dogs are what were used to produce these dogs they call Pit Bulls. The Pit Bull has no official breed standard. But people refer to dogs that look something like the above pictured as Pit Bulls. _Again,_ _something _like them. Technically a Pit Bull could be any dog that can do the job of bear baiting (originally) or fighting dogs (later). With the word, "Bull" in that description, I assume most of these dogs had some kind of Bull dog in their make-up since they were the best at their job.
> 
> So to simplify things...No, there is no breed standard, no real uniformity. But there is a _type_ of dog with a_ type _of look. Not the same look exactly necessarily as another. But with traits that can make them good at their job. You often see a muscular dog with a broad head and broad jaw, short ears which are sometimes cropped, sometimes not. You may see a real resemblance to some of the bully breeds because they are in their make up. But no, there is not enough homogeny to be accepted as a breed by any breed club, such as the AKC.
> 
> ...


Well hopefully you won't be in charge of picking out the pit bulls in the line up. 

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The Opera Poodle said:


> Poodlebeguiled - if there is pit in that dog it is very watered down.


Could well be OP.

She's darling, isn't she. I am really very bonded to this dog...probably more so than my own Poodles, I hate to say. Of course, I haven't had them in my life nearly as long as this dog. But they are growing on me steadfastly, that's for sure.



> Mfmst Poodlebeguiled, I have been thinking about your comment on breed hatred. I don't think I'm guilty of hating the breed, although my husband and Scottie were savaged by two of them. I do think that they are not as innocuous as the ASPCA statement makes them seem. It takes an extraordinarily vigilant and committed owner to own one. And yes, the same can be said for many breeds, but they are not the ones that are in the news. Or have their own reality TV show. Most owners are not competent or responsible enough to own them and that is what frightens me. I watched a YouTube demo of how to use a break stick. That should be mandatory viewing at all ASPCA adoptions.


Mfmst, I'm so very sorry for what happened to your husband and little dog. It is a terrible thing and those owners should be in deep doo doo for letting that happen. I know. I've seen the news and even heard of other stories. I think it's not only the ASPCA though. Way back in this thread somewhere I posted others, like veterinary behaviorists I think it was or veterinarians. I forget, but lots of other organizations that seem to know a lot about these dogs and what they think about the whole situation. I do have to put some stock into what they say. 

Dog bites as a whole are fairly rare compared to all kinds of other things. But of course, understandably, it doesn't feel that way when it's you or someone you love who has been attacked. And I get it that they are potentially dangerous. But I think they do have a place as a loyal, family dog and should not be obliterated. The owners who let these dogs loose to attack should be severely punished, so much so that they set an example to other owners of any dangerous dog, regardless of breed. More education needs to get out there too.

Oh, thanks Eric, for the nice comment about my beloved Doberman. rip. He was a truly magnificent animal and the most loyal, trainable, Velcro, babysitter dog ever. He loved learning and going to class. He was protective without flying off the handle....sensible and discerning, stable as a rock. He was indeed a beautiful dog and a joy to watch run in my pasture. He ran like lightening and so full of life until cancer took him away at 4 years old.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Could well be OP.
> 
> 
> 
> She's darling, isn't she. I am really very bonded to this dog...probably more so than my own Poodles, I hate to say. Of course, I haven't had them in my life nearly as long as this dog. But they are growing on me steadfastly, that's for sure.



Those poor poodles! Perhaps you should give them to somebody who loves the breed madly, and get yourself a couple of Pitbull puppies.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Why don't you ___ off.


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

Lol. Ericwd9 - you manage to put a pot on the stove that was bound to need stirred.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Those are pictures of very lovely, happy looking dogs Poodlebeguiled.

I agree that your son's dog does not look like a purebred pit, but I can definitely see the possibility of her being a pit cross in some of the features. I saw a lot of pits and pit crosses in rescue, and the appearance of the crosses, like any breed cross varied, but she would certainly run the risk of being labeled a pit cross. We spend a lot of time on this forum talking about the variance that happens in doodle crosses, and how unpredictable that is. That's between only two different breeds- a lot of mutts probably have many breeds in their DNA. 

I remember in particular a litter of pit mix rescue puppies (I think there were 8 or 9) who were surrendered with the mama dog who was a pit bull- so those pups were at least 50% pit. But some of the puppies looked very lab like and some looked very hound like, and others looked more like pits- and they were different sizes to boot. It was an interesting litter. They could have had different daddies- that is not uncommon when dogs run loose- but there was a ton of variance in those pups that were at least 50% pit. 

That's another problem with BSL- dogs with unknown heritage can easily be mislabeled.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> *Those are pictures of very lovely, happy looking dogs Poodlebeguiled.*
> I agree that your son's dog does not look like a purebred pit, but I can definitely see the possibility of her being a pit cross in some of the features. I saw a lot of pits and pit crosses in rescue, and the appearance of the crosses, like any breed cross varied, but she would certainly run the risk of being labeled a pit cross. We spend a lot of time on this forum talking about the variance that happens in doodle crosses, and how unpredictable that is. That's between only two different breeds- a lot of mutts probably have many breeds in their DNA.
> 
> I remember in particular a litter of pit mix rescue puppies (I think there were 8 or 9) who were surrendered with the mama dog who was a pit bull- so those pups were at least 50% pit. But some of the puppies looked very lab like and some looked very hound like, and others looked more like pits- and they were different sizes to boot. It was an interesting litter. They could have had different daddies- that is not uncommon when dogs run loose- but there was a ton of variance in those pups that were at least 50% pit.
> ...


Thank you Caroline. They _are_ happy and so very loved, each and every one of them now and always. It's when you have a dog in your life for 1.5 decades it can develop that there is a sort of _unique _bond. It doesn't mean you love them more. I probably don't love her _more_ than my dogs because she's not my dog and not here day in and day out. But I have a special connection with her. I adore all my dogs to the point where people who know me think I'm a little obsessive. I am always doing things with my dogs to better their life and mine. The vast portion of my day is spent interacting with my dogs, be it grooming, hiking, walking, playing, going to a store with them or to my daughter's for the week end. Today, I spent less time with them than usual because I spent too much time wasted on the Internet. I feel awful. We did get our walk though. Some people get it and some don't. 

I appreciate your perceptiveness and charming and informative post. Who would know better than someone who spent the time you have with shelter or rescue dogs? Your training advice lines up with mine...it seems we share the same philosophy. BTW, what you were saying about variances within a breed or type can be huge. This is what the article by the ASPCA was talking about as well as behavior being a result of so many variables, not only what they were selected for genetically. 

Anyhow, thank you for such an informative, good post.:adore:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Several posts in this thread have been reported. From several different members. This is a reminder to treat people with respect on this forum. EVERYONE!!!! 

From this post forward - the comments should stay on topic with none, zero, nada personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) on other members. You guys may think you're being clever and subtle and we won't catch on that you are, in fact, INSTIGATING more drama. Knock it off. If you are seriously unable to respond to every member of this forum with respect, then please put the people with whom you have problems on "Ignore" so you are not tempted to throw more fuel on the fire.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled- When I read your comment about loving your son's dog more, I didn't think that showed you didn't care about Maurice or Matisse. I also find that I love my dogs more the longer they are with me, I don't think that's unusual at all, but maybe it is? I only know my experience.

Thanks for the compliments- I think we do view a lot of this similarly and I also appreciate your perspectives and insight. 

I just kind of shaking my head right now


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

plumcrazy said:


> Several posts in this thread have been reported. From several different members. This is a reminder to treat people with respect on this forum. EVERYONE!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> From this post forward - the comments should stay on topic with none, zero, nada personal attacks (veiled or otherwise) on other members. You guys may think you're being clever and subtle and we won't catch on that you are, in fact, INSTIGATING more drama. Knock it off. If you are seriously unable to respond to every member of this forum with respect, then please put the people with whom you have problems on "Ignore" so you are not tempted to throw more fuel on the fire.



OK, lesson learned - From now on I will respond immediately to personal attacks and posts that violate forum rules. 
I thought that the appropriate thing would be to give you time to remove the violating posts, but now I understand that your repeated stance is to leave them up, let your pals get in the final word, and then call a stop to further replies. 
Now that I understand how you operate, I will get in my reply right away from now on.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The Opera Poodle said:


> Lol. Ericwd9 - you manage to put a pot on the stove that was bound to need stirred.





:wink:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Tiny Poodles said:


> OK, lesson learned - From now on I will respond immediately to personal attacks and posts that violate forum rules.
> I thought that the appropriate thing would be to give you time to remove the violating posts, but now I understand that your repeated stance is to leave them up, let your pals get in the final word, and then call a stop to further replies.
> Now that I understand how you operate, I will get in my reply right away from now on.


You have learned NOTHING! I have no "pals" on this forum that I allow any different privileges than anyone else... It's just when I have personally private messaged someone, telling them that they have been warned to tread carefully and they choose to ignore the warning, there will be further consequences. I respond to things as I am made aware of them. If it takes a while to respond to anything it's because (believe it or not) I have a life outside of this forum. Just because I don't jump on immediately with a public comment when something is reported doesn't mean I haven't sent private messages to people or taken other action... Your comment above is aggravating and uncalled for. I have asked the members to put their problem people on "ignore" so the constant nit-picking can cease. 

Watch your private messages for one from me. It will be coming soon.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

here's a wikipedia article entitled "pit bull:" Pit bull - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. one of the most interesting tidbits is the attempt to rename these dogs to make them more acceptable - "st. francis terriers" in san francisco and "new yorkies" in new york. not surprisingly, the public didnt buy it. 

the bottom line is that renaming does not do away with breed traits, nor does establishing a "foundation" lineage, as is, apparently, the wont of the akc and other breed organizations. lincoln had it right: "you can fool all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." there's a reason those words resonate today.

it seems to me that that is a key issue. if one does not believe there are ingrained traits as a result of selective breeding, then there is no problem re pitties. if one believes there are such traits, then society has a responsibility to deal with genetically inherited aggression that can place humans and their pets in danger unnecessarily. there are continuing genetic studies going on re aggression and its treatment. someday we may have a final answer that includes a way to treat or even eliminate its dominance. in the meantime, thoughtful people will continue to grapple with the issue as eric is trying to do.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

"it seems to me that that is a key issue. if one does not believe there are ingrained traits as a result of selective breeding, then there is no problem re pitties. if one believes there are such traits, then society has a responsibility to deal with genetically inherited aggression that can place humans and their pets in danger unnecessarily. there are continuing genetic studies going on re aggression and its treatment. someday we may have a final answer that includes a way to treat or even eliminate its dominance."

It would be a great thing if some kind of genetic engineering could occur with "pit bulls" Then a dog with such endearing qualities despite it's aggression, could be made safe to be in public. I suspect however that firstly, such would be prohibitively expensive and secondly, I suspect, the very "type" of owner who will have most "pit bulls", would still want the aggression, retained, in their choice of dog.

Eric.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree. and in the meantime, policy decisions need to be made. some jurisdictions have already decided: i believe countryboy has said pitbulls are banned where he lives. whether that dimishes injuries and deaths from dog attacks over time could prove very interesting.


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

I found this interesting. 

Breed-specific legislation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In particular, I like Portugal's stance. 

"Owners can have these breeds but they have to have them muzzled when outdoors, registered and *sterilized.* They also have to submit their own criminal record when they register the dog."

(Please forgive me if this has already been pointed out. I have been in and out of this thread and it is becoming like War and Peace to keep up with.)


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

The Opera Poodle said:


> I found this interesting.
> 
> Breed-specific legislation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> ...



Lifted from the Wikipedia and applying to Australia. Note that the American Pit Bull Terrier is banned and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier is not?

*Australia*

The importation of the Dogo Argentino, Fila Brasileiro, Japanese tosa, American pit bull terrier or pit bull terrier, and Perro de Presa Canario or Presa Canario into Australia is absolutely prohibited.[12]
State Date Type Details New South Wales January 13, 2006 Restriction The following dogs are restricted dogs...: (a) American pit bull terrier or pit bull terrier, (b) Japanese tosa, (c) dogo Argentino, (d) fila Brasileiro, (d1) any other dog of a breed, kind or description whose importation into Australia is prohibited by or under the Customs Act 1901 of the Commonwealth, (e) any dog declared by an authorised officer of a council...to be a restricted dog, (f) any other dog of a breed, kind or description prescribed by the regulations for the purposes of this section.[13] Restricted dogs may not be sold, given away, or acquired, and must be spay/neutered. They must be muzzled when in public, wear a special red-and-yellow collar, and may only be handled by a competent adult over the age of 18. The dog must live a secure enclosure when at home, and the owner must post "Warning: Dangerous Dog" signs on their property. The owner must also register the dog with the local government and notify the government if the dog attacks a person or animal, cannot be found, dies, has moved out of the area, or is now living at a different location within the local government's jurisdiction.[14]
Queensland July 1, 2009 Restriction A dog of a breed prohibited from importation into Australia under the Australian Customs Act of 1901 is considered "restricted." Breeds currently prohibited under Commonwealth legislation are the dogo Argentino; fila Brasiliero; Japanese tosa; American pit bull terrier (or pit bull terrier); and Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario). A person who owns a "restricted" dog must:


keep the dog within a child-proof enclosure
display warning signs at the entrance to the property where the dog is located
muzzle the dog in public and have it under effective control at all times
ensure the dog is spay/neutered, wearing a collar and a prescribed tag, and is microchipped.[15][16]|-
 South Australia July 1, 2004 Restriction The dogo Argentino; fila Brasiliero; Japanese tosa; American pit bull terrier (or pit bull terrier); and Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario) are considered "prescribed breeds." Owners of prescribed breeds: 

must muzzle their dogs and ensure they are under effective control by means of physical restraint
must spay/neuter their dogs
may not sell or give away their dog, or advertise to sell or give away their dog[17]
 Victoria November 2, 2005 Restriction "Restricted breed" dogs are defined as those dogs prohibited from being imported by the Commonwealth Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956, including the Dogo Argentino, the Japanese Tosa, the Fila Brasileiro, the Perro de Presa Canario (or Presa Canario) and the American Pit Bull Terrier (or Pit Bull Terrier). Of these, the Pit Bull Terrier and the Perro de Presa Canario are the only breeds currently known to exist in Australia.[18] Restrictions on these breeds include: 

a permit is required for a person to have more than two of a restricted breed;
escape-proof and child-proof enclosures;
permanent identification using microchip technology;
owners must notify their council if the dog escapes, dies or there is a change of ownership;
in the case of a change of ownership, owners must advise prospective owners that the dog is a restricted breed;
dogs must be leashed and muzzled when in public places;
conspicuous "Beware: Restricted Dog" signs must be displayed on property access points; and
minors are not to own a restricted breed or be in charge of a restricted breed in public places.[19]
 Western Australia March 2006 Restriction The following dog breeds are restricted: 

Dogo Argentino (Argentinean mastiff)
Fila Brasileiro (Brazilian mastiff)
Japanese Tosa
American Pit Bull Terrier and Pit Bull Terrier breeds
Perro de Presa Canario or Presa Canario
and any dog of a mixed breed that visibly contains any of these breeds.
 All restricted breed dogs must be muzzled, leashed and controlled by an adult who is physically capable of handling the dog, in any environment except prescribed enclosures. Restricted breed dogs are also required to be sterilised unless there are extenuating circumstances relating to the animal’s physical condition or medical treatment. Owners of these breeds are required to display of warning signs where these dogs are kept, meet stringent fencing requirements, notify the local government of changes in the dogs status (moved, died, _etc._.), and ensure their dogs wear dangerous dog collars.[20]


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Eric, this is for you. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but it is my perception you post topics that have a good chance for peoples emotions to get on edge. You posted some videos of PB's last month, I did not watch them at first because I didn't have the time when I was online. I then read some reply's and chose not to subject myself to the brutality that was mentioned.

Stir the pot? LOL!! I think more along the lines of fueling the fire. I think I remember a previous post you mentioned you are/were a psychologist. Is this the reason for such topics to be started and fueled? Is it a way for you to see "human behavior" on the web from the comfort of your home?

It doesn't matter if this thread gets 200, 300 or even 1000 responses!! NOTHING written HERE is going to change anything! If anyone wants change about "bully breeds" in their world aka town,city, neighborhood. Then go to your town,city, neighborhood meetings and talk to those YOU elected to bring about change.

I just checked the thread before I clicked on submit and saw another post by you with a lot of rules and regulations about dangerous breeds in Australia. It seems at first glance (since I didn't read your post yet), Australia has similar pertaining to rules, regulations and laws and the US -

They are only good in enforced.

Now I'll read your post.

Plumcrazy - nice job!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Luce, I don't think legislation is the way to go. As you point out rules are only any good when enforced and only obeyed by the honest. Having lost one dog myself to this breed (if indeed it is a breed) and having witnessed in my work the result of a number of attacks on people and dogs (some fatal) I believe that the public perception of these dogs as benign nanny dogs need to be changed. Anything I do to help change this misinformation, might help some person or some dog to avoid death or injury. Even if it saves some "pit bulls" from harm then I will have had at least some success.
Eric.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think legislation does not have to be simply banning. as the opera poodle pointed out, portugal has an interesting system. the very requirements to keep the dog form the basis for an education about public concerns and go to the issue of who may be at least minimally trusted to own such a dog. in fact what portugal has done is very much in line with what tiny poodles suggested. a muzzle in public requirement would identify the dog - and the lack of a muzzle would make clear who is violating the law.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Luce said:


> Eric, this is for you.
> 
> Maybe I'm wrong, but it is my perception you post topics that have a good chance for peoples emotions to get on edge. You posted some videos of PB's last month, I did not watch them at first because I didn't have the time when I was online. I then read some reply's and chose not to subject myself to the brutality that was mentioned.
> 
> ...


I used to believe that pit bulls were ok dogs that were just given a bad rap. The threads on here about pb's have caused me to open my eyes to the characteristics of pit bulls. Me and my daughter used to bring our poodles into the dog park with pit bulls and pit bull mixes. I will never bring her in there again. I can't say what Eric's motives are for the threads he starts but, for me, it very well may have saved my poodle from a pb attack. According to evidence presented here, this is not a far fetched notion that an attack would happen. It's actually a high probability... so I, for one, thank Eric for his pb threads. 

pr


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Here can be found the actual statistics for fatal dog attacks on humans in the US from the CDC. Pit Bulls were No 1 and Rotties No 2. Pit Bull attacks on other dogs have no accurate statistics but are thought to be at least 10 times more common than those on humans. Also these statistics do not take into account non fatal attacks which are also more common.

In September 2000 a study conducted by the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) was published which examined dog bite related fatalities (human death caused by dog bite injuries) over a 20-year period from 1979 to 1998. The study examined 238 fatalities in which the breed of dog was known. The study was surmised to covered approximately 72% of known dog bite related fatalities during that period.[18] However in the later half of the study Rottweilers accounted for more dog bite related fatalities than pit bulls."Despite these limitations and concerns, the data indicates that Rottweilers and pit bull-type dogs accounted for 67% of human DBRF (dog bite related fatality) in the United States between 1997 and 1998. It is extremely unlikely that they accounted for anywhere near 60% of dogs in the United States during that same period and, thus, there appears to be a breed-specific problem with fatalities... However, breeds responsible for human DBRF have varied over time."
—Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, _Breeds of dogs involved in fatal human attacks in the United States between 1979 and 1998_​


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Eric thank you for doing the research to find the hard data on this topic. The CDC is the world's greatest epidemiological agency and authoritative on many issues. 

My anecdotal experiences are congruent with the CDC data in that all of the bad experiences my dogs and we have had have been with pitties and rotties. Given that my own "dangerous" GSD has been the victim in all of his problem encounters with other dogs I will land on the side of having no use for rotts or pits.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

The real facts are unavoidable and there ARE dogs whose natural temperament makes them unsuitable as family pets. The real problem is, I feel, the wealth of misinformation, anecdotal and manipulated information, promulgated by the pro aggressive dogs lobby. Owning these dogs is a serious responsibility and as many have pointed out, the bigger problem is at the other end of the leash. Legislating against these sorts of dogs is not a workable answer. They are severely controlled here in Australia, yet on prime time TV just last night a litter of 15 pit bulls was shown with pride by their breeder. A close young neighbor showed me his new pride and joy. A pit bull/ridge back cross backyard bred. They ARE popular. Unthinking miss-educated people will have them. His dog is patently illegal but will be passed off as a ridgeback cross if indeed it is ever registered or immunized at all. :ahhhhh:

The real answer is education, the refutation of the circulated misinformation and more of the kind of discussion seen here and in other places.

Eric:angel2:


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