# top breeders



## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Out of curiosity, I wonder who you consider top breeders and why.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Since I've just the past few months been looking for a good breeder, it's fresh in my mind. Here are some of the things I look for:

Show their dogs and have titles on them. I want conformation titles and as a plus, working titles. But not necessarily. If they have the temperament, physical correctness and mental attitude, that is good enough for me for whatever venues I might pursue.

Health: I want a conscientious breeder who will not skimp on assuring the breeding of only the healthiest, tested (where applicable) dogs. 

Temperament: I want to see correct temperament in one or both (if possible) parents and even other relatives if possible.

References: Very important. I want to hear from people who have bought puppies from the breeder, people who may work with the breeder in the show scene; handlers, fellow breeders, people familiar with the breeder as an upright, honest and caring person and familiar with the breeder's dogs. Integrity is a quality that blankets everything. If a breeder has some nice dogs, but doesn't have integrity, something can slip up from time to time. So, I have to feel a deep trust and good intuition about the breeder as a person.

I want to see a relatively clean and tidy home where the puppies are raised. I know you can't expect perfection with a lot of dogs around. But some order and cleanliness is important.

*SOCIALIZATION* Bolded and capitalized because this is very important to me. Puppies must be started very early with whatever kind of socialization is appropriate and safe for their age. I want to see them raised in a house hold situation where they're accustomed to noises a house makes, comings and goings, handling, started on token grooming and things you do to dogs. When safe for puppies, exposure other people, kids etc is optimum.

I'm sure there's something else I'm forgetting. There always is. lol.

But a lot of this all comes back to integrity, know-how, forthrightness and general fine reputation. When that is good, most everything else falls in place.


Oh Cookieface! Did you mean specific breeders? Like names? I thought you meant what do top breeders need to do to be considered top breeders. Well, I'll wait and see. 

I'm thinking the breeder I've decided on is a top breeder. And I believe the other one I was considering is too. Both are in Washington near the Seattle area. Valcopy is the one I just put a deposit down on a puppy and Farthing Poodles, southeast of Seattle....both have that integrity. I can just tell.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Those who finish the most champions and have the top producers of champions - they are the ones who really put their stamp on the breed - hopefully for the better. Not saying that is the type of breeder that everyone wants to buy from, just saying that is how I define top breeder - those who are having a strong influence on the breed - in toy poodles it used to be Sassafras, currently it is Dalin.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

That's an interesting question and I ponder that often. I suppose if I was looking for a pup to show it might be different, but I would consider a "top breeder" for any breed to be someone who loves their breed and will strive to maintain the breed standard, someone who genuinely cares for their dogs and makes sure they go to a good home (better than they would provide), and someone who will work with me, as the purchaser, to guide and answer questions regarding the pup. It goes without saying that health testing, temperament, titles, etc. all contribute to feeling confident that this breeder is doing things right. I believe a "top breeder" will be someone who, although specializes in a particular color, puts health first, and then the color. 

If I were looking to purchase a show poodle, I may look at additional criteria, but whether a show or pet poodle, I still think it comes down to the breeders themselves and why they are breeding and where they place their ethics.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Since I've just the past few months been looking for a good breeder, it's fresh in my mind. Here are some of the things I look for:
> 
> Show their dogs and have titles on them. I want conformation titles and as a plus, working titles. But not necessarily. If they have the temperament, physical correctness and mental attitude, that is good enough for me for whatever venues I might pursue.
> 
> ...


That is a great reply to how to choose a breeder to buy your puppy from, but I think that in the dog world top breeder means what I said!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> That is a great reply to how to choose a breeder to buy your puppy from, but I think that in the dog world top breeder means what I said!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


But I should add that Dalin has everything you speak of except they are not house raised - however the socialization and attention that the pups receive is outstanding, so that does not bother me at all!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think it is happens sometimes that some breeders get so wrapped up in showing and acquiring many champions, that it almost becomes addictive. I have heard of some who frantically show dog after dog to earn that title and more. They become so focused on that, that sometimes other important factors go by the way side. So, I'm not looking for someone who...necessarily has a kazillion champions. Some, yes. But mostly I want to see them being so conscientious that they are striving to improve upon the last generation of the breed, which encompasses a lot of things. They love their breed, respect it and getting ribbons and trophies isn't the end all to me. They must prove that the dogs are correct and adhering to the standard, of course. So, those titles are important. I just don't think that in and of itself, that is the mark of a top breeder.

Definitely someone you can work with and have a relationship for the life of the puppy...someone to help you when needed, within reason, of course.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I think it is happens sometimes that some breeders get so wrapped up in showing and acquiring many champions, that it almost becomes addictive. I have heard of some who frantically show dog after dog to earn that title and more. They become so focused on that, that sometimes other important factors go by the way side. So, I'm not looking for someone who...necessarily has a kazillion champions. Some, yes. But mostly I want to see them being so conscientious that they are striving to improve upon the last generation of the breed, which encompasses a lot of things. They love their breed, respect it and getting ribbons and trophies isn't the end all to me. They must prove that the dogs are correct and adhering to the standard, of course. So, those titles are important. I just don't think that in and of itself, that is the mark of a top breeder.
> 
> Well sure, in every business, sport, hobby etc., there will always be people who get weird about it - doesn't mean that everyone does.
> I don't know what the original poster was asking, but you are answering how to find the best breeder to buy a puppy from - Poodle Variety will have a list of the "Top Breeders" every year, and that is how I defined it. Ask for the pedigree of the pups that you are looking at - odds are, you will find dogs from the Top Breeders in there!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well sure, in every business, sport, hobby etc., there will always be people who get weird about it - doesn't mean that everyone does.
I don't know what the original poster was asking, but you are answering how to find the best breeder to buy a puppy from - Poodle Variety will have a list of the "Top Breeders" every year, and that is how I defined it. Ask for the pedigree of the pups that you are looking at - odds are, you will find dogs from the Top Breeders in there![/QUOTE]

Yup, I just glanced at the website of your breeder - he sure does have dogs from some of the Top Breeders behind his dogs.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

when i first looked for a second lowchen, i stumbled across an australian breeder whose name came up over and over again. she had many champions and grand champions among her dogs. i had an email exchange with her - she was very accommodating - which nonetheless convinced me i did not want to do business with her; she "quietened" her barky dogs as a matter of routine, which really turned me off. i later learned that despite her many champions, she also crossbred her lowchen to produce "designer" dogs. 

so imo "top breeder" can be a pretty worthless title if all you go by is the number of championship dogs. dogs that compete and are deemed to meet the breed standard do matter. but so do health and temperament of the dogs and doing what is necessary to strengthen the breed. and that goes to breeder integrity, not to the number of ribbons on the wall.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> when i first looked for a second lowchen, i stumbled across an australian breeder whose name came up over and over again. she had many champions and grand champions among her dogs. i had an email exchange with her - she was very accommodating - which nonetheless convinced me i did not want to do business with her; she "quietened" her barky dogs as a matter of routine, which really turned me off. i later learned that despite her many champions, she also crossbred her lowchen to produce "designer" dogs.
> 
> so imo "top breeder" can be a pretty worthless title if all you go by is the number of championship dogs. dogs that compete and are deemed to meet the breed standard do matter. but so do health and temperament of the dogs and doing what is necessary to strengthen the breed. and that goes to breeder integrity, not to the number of ribbons on the wall.


In a perfect world, ALL top breeders would be just as focused upon health and temperament as showing, but you are right, not all of them do the right thing- and if you do enough investigating with the breed club, other breeders, and former customers you will find out who they are just as you did. But many Top Breeders also have integrity in how they raise, care for and breed their dogs - and when you find one who does, it's a really good thing for a puppy seeker, because the greater volume that they do will also mean that the odds are better that they can match you with your ideal puppy!


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Personally, I want a dog from a breeder who shows their dogs. This way they're getting confirmation of their dogs' conformation. Health testing of all the dogs they breed. Bare minimum, hips, eyes and VonWillebrand (SP). SA and thyroid all the better. Temperament tests and the ability to match the right dog with the right buyer. I mean, having a healthy dog with great conformation is great but placing an active dog with a couch potato family isn't going to work out well. Socializing is also very important. Again, a healthy well conformed dog that is fearful or timid or anti social isn't going to end well either.
My two cents

Rick


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PoodleRick said:


> Personally, I want a dog from a breeder who shows their dogs. This way they're getting confirmation of their dogs' conformation. Health testing of all the dogs they breed. Bare minimum, hips, eyes and VonWillebrand (SP). SA and thyroid all the better. Temperament tests and the ability to match the right dog with the right buyer. I mean, having a healthy dog with great conformation is great but placing an active dog with a couch potato family isn't going to work out well. Socializing is also very important. Again, a healthy well conformed dog that is fearful or timid or anti social is going to end well either.
> My two cents
> 
> Rick


Very Much agree with you Rick - and one of the main reasons that I recommend Dalin for Toys so highly is that she knows every nuance of her puppies personalities so well, and if you are clear with her about what you want - you will get precisely that (or you won't get a puppy). Even on the little personality traits, which I didn't think much of in conversation, for weeks after I got my puppies, I was constantly saying "OMG, I remember Lynn telling me about that" 
But I guess that maybe you have had to have experienced a breeder giving you a completely incompatible dog in the past to appreciate what a rare and valuable quality good and honest match-making is in a breeder?


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Very Much agree with you Rick - and one of the main reasons that I recommend Dalin for Toys so highly is that she knows every nuance of her puppies personalities so well, and if you are clear with her about what you want - you will get precisely that (or you won't get a puppy). Even on the little personality traits, which I didn't think much of in conversation, for weeks after I got my puppies, I was constantly saying "OMG, I remember Lynn telling me about that"
> *But I guess that maybe you have had to have experienced a breeder giving you a completely incompatible dog in the past to appreciate what a rare and valuable quality good and honest match-making is in a breeder?*


Oh yeah. First let me say my Beau wound up being a really great dog but he was a project from the beginning. I don't want to say too much publicly but I'll gladly tell you, or anybody else, in PM form about him as a pup and adolescent.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

@poodlerick: a fear aggressive or hyper (or both) dog means there's a temperament issue. even "solitary" or "aloof" dogs (chows, shar-peis, for example) should not be fear aggressive as pups and certainly not as adults. hyper - well, that sometimes depends on the person owning the dog's definition and/or lack of understanding of breed traits, but a lot of times it means the breeder is valuing conformation over temperament. definitely not a top breeder no matter how many champions are supposedly notched in its kennels. at the same time, as someone noted in another thread, that cute, sweet poodle pup with round bulging eyes is not the sign of a top breeder, either.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PoodleRick said:


> Oh yeah. First let me say my Beau wound up being a really great dog but he was a project from the beginning. I don't want to say too much publicly but I'll gladly tell you, or anybody else, in PM form about him as a pup and adolescent.


Yup, I had the same type of experience with Tangee, who was from a different breeder -I ask for a puppy who is so confident and trusting that you can carry them around for hours belly-up and they are relaxed and happy about it, and I got Tangee, who was so un-trusting, that it took me over a year to get her to let me hold her AT ALL.
My Dalins on the other hand - so trusting, I can hold them belly-up in one arm, and switch hands by dropping them a couple of inches into the other arm, and they don't even flinch!
I can't tell you what comfort I have knowing that the day that Lynn tells me that she has my dream puppy for me, I won't have to question her, I won't have to wait until I meet it, I can celebrate the moment that she gives me the word, knowing that my 15 years of happiness has begun!


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh Cookieface! Did you mean specific breeders? Like names? I thought you meant what do top breeders need to do to be considered top breeders. Well, I'll wait and see.
> 
> I'm thinking the breeder I've decided on is a top breeder. And I believe the other one I was considering is too. Both are in Washington near the Seattle area. Valcopy is the one I just put a deposit down on a puppy and Farthing Poodles, southeast of Seattle....both have that integrity. I can just tell.


Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of what _specific_ breeders - names - do you consider "top breeders" (and a top breeder can be defined in many ways and doesn't necessarily mean reputable). Sort of, when you think of poodles, what breeders come to mind? Could be your own breeder, but may also be a breeder who consistently wins Best of Show or Best of Breed. For example, when I think toys, I think Smash. And I'll admit, I'm as curious about the names as I am the why. 



Poodlebeguiled said:


> I think it is happens sometimes that some breeders get so wrapped up in showing and acquiring many champions, that it almost becomes addictive. I have heard of some who frantically show dog after dog to earn that title and more. They become so focused on that, that sometimes other important factors go by the way side. So, I'm not looking for someone who...necessarily has a kazillion champions. Some, yes. But mostly I want to see them being so conscientious that they are striving to improve upon the last generation of the breed, which encompasses a lot of things. They love their breed, respect it and getting ribbons and trophies isn't the end all to me. They must prove that the dogs are correct and adhering to the standard, of course. So, those titles are important. I just don't think that in and of itself, that is the mark of a top breeder.


I've heard breeders who are more interested in winning than the dogs referred to as "ribbon mills."


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I think we all have our line that we will not cross. My sister is in the show world, not Poodles, but very successful in her breed. She does a great job, but that is not always the case with "Show People". Some just want to win, could care less about the dogs, don't love them, trade them around like they have no feelings ect. My sister is guilty of some of this as well. That is why I knew that when I wanted a spoo to look for the show people that will let an adult dog go and not think much about it. Not all of them for sure, but enough that I knew I could find what I was looking for and I did.

I want a breeder that would be like myself, take excellent care of the dogs, care where they go, love them and hope to always better the breed. I want a dog that has been health tested ect. But the care of the Breeding dogs is the first thing I would look for. Do I want to support this breeding program and unsure more pups will be in this person's hands later, if not, then MOVE ON!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am not familiar enough with world renown Poodle breeders to be able to name top breeders or even to know what another person's perception of top breeder is. From the small circle of breeders I've had contact with in my recent search for a Poodle, I could tell you some of what I think are pretty high up there, including my own and the other one I checked into in Wa... Farthing. And even a couple others out of my state. But top? I don't have any idea. I don't even know the real definition. I'm more interested in a dog from my_ own _idea of a top breeder, since it's going to be me who lives with the dog. LOL.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of what _specific_ breeders - names - do you consider "top breeders" (and a top breeder can be defined in many ways and doesn't necessarily mean reputable). Sort of, when you think of poodles, what breeders come to mind? Could be your own breeder, but may also be a breeder who consistently wins Best of Show or Best of Breed. For example, when I think toys, I think Smash. And I'll admit, I'm as curious about the names as I am the why.
> I've heard breeders who are more interested in winning than the dogs referred to as "ribbon mills."


smash jp definitely comes to mind - they have really garnered a lot of publicity with their wins. a couple of others i've come across while looking at breeders, show results, etc, are clarion and pomroth (canada). swag (whose two pups are featured as available in another thread) has also come in with some strong wins. the problem is that this is mostly based on who has gotten publicity for winning dogs. takes a lot more digging to find out if you trust the breeder. a lot of that work has been done by folks on this forum, but even then sometimes you have to look beyond the recommendations to find the dog that is right for you.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

I have a Clarion dog whom I love to pieces but he has some problems that weren't disclosed to me. He arrived with bald patches and is under a dermatologist's care for hair loss (now growing back, thank God). He also came to me as a 13-month adult neither house-trained nor leash-trained. I am still struggling to train him not to scream and howl at the sight of other dogs, and we haven't even gotten to the leash-pulling. I did not get the true story about this dog's background -- I was told he started out as a show dog but didn't "love it" -- and still don't know it. There is no way such an untrained dog was ever in a show ring. On the positive side, he is beautiful, joyful, cuddly, and funny and I wouldn't trade him for any dog. But based on all of this it is difficult for me to understand Clarion's stellar reputation on this site. i did not do due diligence as I felt so lucky to get one of their dogs at all. Moral: do your homework and ask lots of questions! Regardless of reputation!

Oh, and Daisuke has Smash in his pedigree too.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> smash jp definitely comes to mind - they have really garnered a lot of publicity with their wins. a couple of others i've come across while looking at breeders, show results, etc, are clarion and pomroth (canada). swag (whose two pups are featured as available in another thread) has also come in with some strong wins. the problem is that this is mostly based on who has gotten publicity for winning dogs. takes a lot more digging to find out if you trust the breeder. a lot of that work has been done by folks on this forum, but even then sometimes you have to look beyond the recommendations to find the dog that is right for you.


Yes, you do need to distinguish between dogs that are campaigned a lot, so you hear of them and their kennel name very frequently, and the Top Breeders who are producing the most champions.
Not finding my 2012 Poodle Variety, but I know that in the Toys, Dalin was again number one (but I think most of those were dogs that she sold to others, rather then Owner-Handling which she used to do)
I did find the magazine with 2011's list - They were
1)Lynn DeRosa ( Dalin), with 16 champions (13 bred herself, 3 w/co-breeders)
2) Ray Stevens & Sharon Stevens (Sharbelle), with 11 champions (7 themselves, 4 w/ co-breeders
3) Janet R Reed (Foxmore) 8 Champions (only 2 without co-breeders)
4)) Mickey Kern 7 champions (only 1 without a co-breeder)
5) Connie Halcom (Rainbow) 6 champions (all without co-breeders)
6) Yukiko Omura (Smash) is one two people who finished 5 champions that year.
And the list gets way more crowded from there - not sure if the other's you mentioned are on it or not.
So you are correct - the one that you thought of first is actually just one who does a lot of campaigning, by far not the one that produces the champions the most consistently - that one is Dalin!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

NorthJerseyGirrl said:


> I have a Clarion dog whom I love to pieces but he has some problems that weren't disclosed to me. He arrived with bald patches and is under a dermatologist's care for hair loss (now growing back, thank God). He also came to me as a 13-month adult neither house-trained nor leash-trained. I am still struggling to train him not to scream and howl at the sight of other dogs, and we haven't even gotten to the leash-pulling. I did not get the true story about this dog's background -- I was told he started out as a show dog but didn't "love it" -- and still don't know it. There is no way such an untrained dog was ever in a show ring. On the positive side, he is beautiful, joyful, cuddly, and funny and I wouldn't trade him for any dog. But based on all of this it is difficult for me to understand Clarion's stellar reputation on this site. i did not do due diligence as I felt so lucky to get one of their dogs at all. Moral: do your homework and ask lots of questions! Regardless of reputation!
> 
> Oh, and Daisuke has Smash in his pedigree too.


good info. my first lowchen came from one of the top breeders. she sold him as a pet at five months - said she had been saving him for show but one of his teeth was starting to grow in crooked. so i got him. well the tooth straightened out, but then he outsized, which i thought was kind of amusing. i don't think he would ever have been a show dog - not extroverted, which is supposed to be part of the breed standard. on the other hand, the second lowchen i brought in was a retired finished champion who hit all the marks - from a different breeder who was really careful to find a dog that would fit into my household. both dogs turned out to be pretty intelligent, but there's no question the one who had been shown was truly unusually so. not too many dogs i know bring back a treat they are finding too tough to chew and try to exchange it for another one!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

patk said:


> good info. my first lowchen came from one of the top breeders. she sold him as a pet at five months - said she had been saving him for show but one of his teeth was starting to grow in crooked. so i got him. well the tooth straightened out, but then he outsized, which i thought was kind of amusing. i don't think he would ever have been a show dog - not extroverted, which is supposed to be part of the breed standard. on the other hand, the second lowchen i brought in was a retired finished champion who hit all the marks - from a different breeder who was really careful to find a dog that would fit into my household. both dogs turned out to be pretty intelligent, but there's no question the one who had been shown was truly unusually so. *not too many dogs i know bring back a treat they are finding too tough to chew and try to exchange it for another one*!


:lol::rofl: That's hilarious!!!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

but there's no question the one who had been shown was truly unusually so. not too many dogs i know bring back a treat they are finding too tough to chew and try to exchange it for another one![/QUOTE]

Yesterday, my Teaka, whom the breeder had told me was a dog with very clean habits, did not want a treat that I gave her, so she took it over and put it on the mat that I keep under their food bowls to catch the crumbs. 
Very tidy, but maybe not so smart, because that did leave the treat available for her sister Tangee to take lol!


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## Tiskers (Jun 23, 2013)

*Great thread!*

Great thread, CF. I'm taking notes, LOL!

Looking forward to more replies, and more specific breeder recommendations! 
Thanks!


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## alwayson (Dec 24, 2013)

*Your missing something in your statement*



Tiny Poodles said:


> Yes, you do need to distinguish between dogs that are campaigned a lot, so you hear of them and their kennel name very frequently, and the Top Breeders who are producing the most champions.
> Not finding my 2012 Poodle Variety, but I know that in the Toys, Dalin was again number one (but I think most of those were dogs that she sold to others, rather then Owner-Handling which she used to do)
> I did find the magazine with 2011's list - They were
> 1)Lynn DeRosa ( Dalin), with 16 champions (13 bred herself, 3 w/co-breeders)
> ...


 Most of the dogs taken for the 
kennel where CH also, they got in that horrible condition after returning to her , But you not having show dogs or showing dogs that must have slipped your thought process , The dogs live with the handler and are cared for fed, exercised and trained to move on a lead and stack . No dog would look that bad in 6 to 9 weeks of not being cared for . Any one that shows knows that , they may not look like ring ready but never would get that bad in a that short of a timeline . Period


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

For me titles from any sport, conformation or others are useless if other aspects of breeding is not cared for and the care that the dogs recieve is bad. Conformation is one variable in a complex equation. What's the point in getting a champion who dies of bloat at 3? who has a nervous disposition from the start? 

However I do want a breeder to be doing something, to have a goal to the operation and that could be conformation champions thats great as long as the other aspects of the dog is not compromised. 

It is extremely important for me that the dogs are all cared for in the home. If you have 30 dogs how can you know them well enough temperament, health and conformation to determine which should be bred and to whom? Even if the puppy's are socialised how could anxious or even slightly aggressive temperaments of the parents been truly spotted when they are all in kennels? 

Also COI% is important too we know better now, we know the danger and if you a breeder is achieving ribbons by mass breeding and high COI% then I do not regard that breeder as a 'top breeder' because that breeder is not improving the breed. 

Also even if the breed has difficult breed characteristics (prey drive of min pins or herding of BC) I want the breeder to honour that and not dilute them to make the dogs more marketable or easy.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

alwayson said:


> Most of the dogs taken for the
> 
> kennel where CH also, they got in that horrible condition after returning to her , But you not having show dogs or showing dogs that must have slipped your thought process , The dogs live with the handler and are cared for fed, exercised and trained to move on a lead and stack . No dog would look that bad in 6 to 9 weeks of not being cared for . Any one that shows knows that , they may not look like ring ready but never would get that bad in a that short of a timeline . Period



You may want to have your attorney explain that letter that you received to you, because the false accusations that you are making are leaving you open to significant damages.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

??? Attorney???

Did I miss something here? I feel I need to say something. 

I actually thought the same thing, those pictures to me looked like months, or even years of neglect. Not just one missed groom. I don't own show dogs, or even purebred poodles, but my Max has a poodle coat exactly like a purebred poodle and up until his bout with pancreatitis, I kept him pretty long. I groom him, so I do have some kind of an idea about how quickly the coat mats. I don't think my opinion leaves me open to litigation- my goodness, we are not going there are we? 

I want to be able to talk about a topic like an adult, who is rational and capable of independent thought- without fear being censored or threatened. 

My opinion is not meant to disparage anybody's pet, anymore than a thread on good breeding practices is meant to disparage my wonderful pets, who I will readily admit are throw away products of the designer dog fad. But I love them, and at the same time welcome any discourse that brings that entire industry down. We only need to look at what happened in France this week to be reminded of how important divergent opinions are, and how important it is to let them flourish.

TP - you have lovely dogs. Hug them, love them, and give them great lives.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Honestly, I think we all could have lived without this 1 1/2 year old thread being brought up again. Sheesh!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

May be an old thread- but the topic is still relevant. We can choose not to read it- there are threads I don't read because they bother me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> ??? Attorney???
> 
> Did I miss something here? I feel I need to say something.
> 
> ...



Missed one groom? You have seen the court transcripts that prove that those dogs were in very good condition and healthy on the day that they were confiscated. I have read the entire testimony - those poodles were as in good condition as any one of our dogs on that day. Could a poodle get into the kind of horrific condition in just 9 Weeks? Well the fact is that they did, because we know that they were not that way when they got to the shelter - that is a logic that overrides any "opinion" that you may form after viewing those pictures. 

How did it happen? I am told that the shelter kept 4 poodles in 4x4 pens, with instructions "not to touch them" the entire time that they were there - they did not leave those pens. They were fed small amounts twice a day shoved under the gate in one bowl (so the more dominant dogs ate, the more passive ones starved). The waste was cleaned from the pens several times a day with the poodles still IN THE PEN. Yup, not only were those poor things never handled, never exercised, never bathed, never brushed or combed, they were wet down, left sloshing around in their own diluted waste, to air dry in the summer heat, over and over again for NINE weeks! 

It is a fact that the dogs got into that horrible condition during their shelter stay, and while what I told you about how they were treated to bring them into that condition is only here say, given the shape that they were in after their nine week stay, it certainly does have the ring of truth to it doesn't it?


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

You can thnk what you want, as we all can. My concern was with the threats of litigation, and what it does to the discussion on the forum.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

threats of litigation do nothing to discussion on the forum unless libelous allegations are made. there could, i suppose, be fallout for the forum itself for hosting such allegations, but i assume that's why forums are moderated. i believe one of our most respected members here said awhile ago that if such allegations were made about her, she would be all over them with her attorney. that's a right, too, in the u.s., anyway.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Threats of legal action against individuals who post here IMO do not belong in a public forum where people are (I hope) encouraged to express different viewpoints on a topic. I think many people will read that and think "I better keep my mouth shut." Is that what we want?

The irony in this is that the litigation has already occurred. When, or if, further litigation happens, it's open for further discussion.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> Threats of legal action against individuals who post here IMO do not belong in a public forum where people are (I hope) encouraged to express different viewpoints on a topic. I think many people will read that and think "I better keep my mouth shut." Is that what we want?
> 
> The irony in this is that the litigation has already occurred. When, or if, further litigation happens, it's open for further discussion.


i think it's up to individuals to decide what they want to do, but it's certainly better that we do what we do in full knowledge of consequences, if any, mainly because i have always heard that ignorance of the law is no excuse in the eyes of courts.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Pat k- I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Not clear to me.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sorry about that.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I have no clue what either of you are talking about. If you think that I threatened anyone with legal action, you are quite mistaken.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> You may want to have your attorney explain that letter that you received to you, because the false accusations that you are making are leaving you open to significant damages.


?????


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Missed one groom? You have seen the court transcripts that prove that those dogs were in very good condition and healthy on the day that they were confiscated. I have read the entire testimony - those poodles were as in good condition as any one of our dogs on that day. Could a poodle get into the kind of horrific condition in just 9 Weeks? Well the fact is that they did, because we know that they were not that way when they got to the shelter - that is a logic that overrides any "opinion" that you may form after viewing those pictures.
> 
> How did it happen? I am told that the shelter kept 4 poodles in 4x4 pens, with instructions "not to touch them" the entire time that they were there - they did not leave those pens. They were fed small amounts twice a day shoved under the gate in one bowl (so the more dominant dogs ate, the more passive ones starved). The waste was cleaned from the pens several times a day with the poodles still IN THE PEN. Yup, not only were those poor things never handled, never exercised, never bathed, never brushed or combed, they were wet down, left sloshing around in their own diluted waste, to air dry in the summer heat, over and over again for NINE weeks!
> 
> It is a fact that the dogs got into that horrible condition during their shelter stay, and while what I told you about how they were treated to bring them into that condition is only here say, given the shape that they were in after their nine week stay, it certainly does have the ring of truth to it doesn't it?



Sorry, I meant to say that the waste was cleaned out with water via a hose several times a day with the dog still in the pen. Those poodles were wet down several times a day and left to air dry, no brushing or combing! Nobody cleaned the poop off their butts, nobody cleaned the goop from their eyes - they were just wet, and left to air dry with whatever was stuck to them several times a day for 9 freakin weeks!


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

*Please leave the whole Dalin controversy out of this thread!!!*


After being involved with rescue the past few years, I am really torn about going to a breeder for my next poodle. However, what makes me feel more confident about buying a puppy versus adopting, is knowing the breeder is researching lines, actively trying to breed bad traits/issues out of their lines, and proving that breeding their dogs will improve the current state of the poodle breed.

I don't want a breeder that just puts two pretty dogs together to make pretty puppies. I recently asked a breeder if they had plans of breeding my two favourite dogs of hers. She said it's unlikely because of some not so great ancestry that they shared. I LOVE that the breeder was knowledgeable of that, and happy to share that info, and did not want to compromise the health of her dogs for looks. 

I also look for a breeder that has very few dogs, keeps them in their home as family members, and has puppies that have titled in other venues like obedience, agility, or working as service dogs, or therapy dogs.

That to me is a top breeder, and one that I would feel confident about buying from.


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## Bizzeemamanj (Apr 14, 2014)

I've kept out of the discussion because I have little to no knowledge of the situation nor do I have enough knowledge to speak eloquently on the topic.

However - it is VERY clear to me that this thread was resurrected specifically to continue to go around and around and around over the Dalin legal issue. At this point in time the exact same arguments have been made by both sides so many times I've lost count. And NEVER the two shall meet. NEVER.

And for those of you who say "well just don't read it!" - the thread topic is "top breeders", and I opened it thinking it was about "top breeders" - silly me. And it was, over 2 years ago! So now that I know it's not really a thread about "top breeders", but yet another cycle of the Dalin merry go round, I will step off the ride.

But please. Take it to another thread if you want to continue to debate this issue and please don't resurrect any other old threads and take them so far off topic just because you did a forum search of the word Dalin. Please? Pretty please?

Thank you!

ETA - or what Locket said! LOL!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I believe that Alwayson's insurgence of this issue onto this thread was flagged by numerous people, but unfortunately our moderator did not see fit to remove it. Perhaps she could reconsider that?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Bizzeemamanj said:


> I've kept out of the discussion because I have little to no knowledge of the situation nor do I have enough knowledge to speak eloquently on the topic.
> 
> However - it is VERY clear to me that this thread was resurrected specifically to continue to go around and around and around over the Dalin legal issue. At this point in time the exact same arguments have been made by both sides so many times I've lost count. And NEVER the two shall meet. NEVER.
> 
> ...


I think your sentiment is good and I agree that it should be about the topic started. But....take it to another thread? You mean trash most every thread on here like this one is? Because that's what one PF puppy mill devotee does. Her delusional and obsessive fixation on this convicted of animal abuse/puppy miller of hers is pushed like a drug pusher pushes heroin in any thread where she readily finds an opening to twist the intent and veer off and make it about Dalin's imagined virtues. Any person looking for a breeder is encouraged, not discouraged from going to this puppy mill, not a top breeder if she can get her .02 in which she does in many threads. So to keep the topic pure, is a tall order. 

Bizz....your post is good. I appreciate it...some great points as to what makes a good breeder. And having made my point, I will not disrupt this potentially interesting thread anymore.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

*What makes a good Breeder?*

Posted by a close breeder friend of mine. Thought it appropriate here. Although simple it gets its point across.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

You know what is the most disgusting thing about this whole issue?
It is that while the self proclaimed animal advocates on this board are patting themselves on the back for destroying the reputation of a proven innocent woman, who just happens to be one of the top Toy Poodle Breeders of all time, the parties who were actually responsible for abusively neglecting her dogs are permitted to continue to do so, no sanctions, no changes called for, no public outcries whatsoever!

As you sit behind your keyboard slashing out hateful words about the person who was most devastated about what was done to those poodles, for they were hers, you shut your eyes to the fact that the perpetrators are in all likelihood doing the same to the dogs that are in their care today! 
Sure, they probably are not poodles, but they are living, breathing, suffering dogs, but if you choose to shut your eyes to their suffering, and direct your energy at hating on one woman, then stop patting yourself on the back, because you are the polar opposite of what you believe yourself to be - 
You are not an animal advocate, your are an ignorer and enabler of animal abuse!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> You know what is the most disgusting thing about this whole issue?
> It is that while the self proclaimed animal advocates on this board are patting themselves on the back for destroying the reputation of* a proven innocent woman,* who just happens to be one of the top Toy Poodle Breeders of all time, the parties who were actually responsible for abusively neglecting her dogs are permitted to continue to do so, no sanctions, no changes called for, no public outcries whatsoever!
> 
> As you sit behind your keyboard slashing out hateful words about the person who was most devastated about what was done to those poodles, for they were hers, you shut your eyes to the fact that the perpetrators are in all likelihood doing the same to the dogs that are in their care today!
> ...


She was NOT proven innocent. She was found guilty and convicted by a jury of her peers and was suspended from AKC for 10 years. There were photos taken by a policeman who came to her property. The shelter people were not convicted. She is not a top breeder of all time. She is a puppy mill. That is not hateful words. That is the fact. You appear to be living in a world of your own making. Something is very wrong here. It's a shame. And I'm truly sorry about that.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A couple of articles

Deconstructing the Gene Pool | The Bark


Sirius Dog


So what do you think of that?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

this thread has been trolled, no question about it. it's easy to troll any thread if one is so inclined. sometimes it's surprising who the trolls are. a highly respected member here told me about being followed around in thread after thread by someone with whom she had disagreed and eventually put on ignore. i also noticed for quite awhile that every time i posted, one particular person would post right after me to try to undercut me in some way or another. i could do the same, but, frankly, i don't find that person worth wasting time on. 

the person who took this thread into personal attack mode has been chastised at least once before. i guess that's not a lesson learned.

the worst part about the trolling is that there is a group here that thinks it's okay to try to drive people with whom they don't agree off the forum. the irony is that some of these same people, when pressed, have yelled about how they have a right to their "opinion." yup. but no one else, apparently, has the same right if they disagree. sad. 

unfortunately, i think eventually the mods are going to have to end up closing this thread because of the trolling. it's too bad.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> She was NOT proven innocent. She was found guilty and convicted by a jury of her peers and was suspended from AKC for 10 years. There were photos taken by a policeman who came to her property. The shelter people were not convicted. She is not a top breeder of all time. She is a puppy mill. That is not hateful words. That is the fact. You appear to be living in a world of your own making. Something is very wrong here. It's a shame. And I'm truly sorry about that.


Just keep slashing your keyboard with your hateful lies, while the shelter that perpetrated the abuse continues to abusively neglect dogs. There are too many people who know, respect and adore Dalin for you to ever hurt her, but just remember that while you are doing it, nobody is helping the dogs who are still suffering in that shelter today.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)




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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


>



Why yes, you do have tunnel vision - if you opened your eyes you would see the dogs that are suffering today at the hands of the people who did that to Lynn's babies, and try to help them. But then it would be a lot more difficult to take on a complex government agency than to slash nasty words on your keyboard.....


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

*Attention!!*

I have said it before (sometimes on the forum, sometimes in private messages to individual members) and I will say it ONE MORE TIME.

This has got to STOP! I see that members have suggested that I didn't do anything about the reported post(s) from this thread, but what none of the members know is who I sent private messages to, when I did it, or what they said. Stop trying to make it seem like nothing is being done - you have no idea!

Also, any further posts on the subject of "Dalin" on this thread (or any other thread if it brings up the same old, tired tale) will be deleted and the member warned. As someone said, the two sides will NEVER agree - so it is over... DONE! Enough! This subject has been proven to promote "drama". No more!

If there are any further posts on this thread it had better be about the original subject and nothing further. Since TP has already extolled what she feels are virtues about her breeder - that does NOT need to be repeated. New information only please. Nothing that has already been said (said again, said in a different way, and re-said!!) will be allowed.

We are all supposed to be mature adults on this forum. I feel like I'm babysitting a bunch of mean children! :doh:

Barb


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am not a child or trying to stir up trouble. And I don't believe anyone who has the best interest of animals in their minds are either. I _ONLY_ and sincerely, from the bottom of my heart, want any prospective puppy buyers who may be reading these types of threads to understand what a top breeder is, what constitutes a reputable breeder, and to fend off any promotion of going to a puppy mill for a puppy. This and other threads habitually seem to grow directional signs pointing to this puppy mill. Make no mistake. There's a top breeder and then there are bybs and worst of all, puppy mills. They do not mix any better than water and oil. They are not one in the same. That's all.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I appreciate everyone's passion on this subject, but no matter what people read here, it is ALWAYS up to the individual shopper to do their due diligence and ask the tough questions of any breeder they may be considering. It is not up the this forum to "warn" people, but if we can help educate, that would be the most helpful. 

I'm addressing any new poodle shopper looking for a breeder - don't always believe everything you hear or read, good or bad... do your OWN research. Talk to the breeder you're interested in. Start a relationship. Get a "feeling". Make your own decision. Do NOT rely on what "other people" say. There will always be those FOR, and there will always be those AGAINST. In order to have the best experience, do the best research you can and follow your instincts... if it feels wrong or icky - RUN!!!!! 

Here's a starting point:
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html

Barb


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

indeed. people should be especially careful of those who prey on our emotions rather than facts and are so ready to throw stones and categorize others. especially when they are not even breeders and have less experience with poodles as a breed than many others here.

mere ownership of a particular breed of dog does not make one an expert. i had a lowchen for almost 17 years, but i wouldn't recommend me as an expert on lowchen or lowchen breeders. i guess some would call it ignorance, since that word is thrown around so freely here, but i like to think just maybe there's at least a hint of humility involved as well. could it be that we should all perhaps spend more time learning and less pontificating at the expense of the other guy?


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