# Thoughts on/experience with Prophylactic Gastropexy



## cliffdweller

My Vet has mentioned that I could have this procedure done at the time that Rain is spayed. I have had experience with bloat/torsion (gastric dilatation-volvulus) in older Weimaraners (2 at over 15 years old; one at over 14). Though these dogs survived and this procedure was perfomed on them, none lived much beyond a year following the episode and quality of life was questionable (--- they were old). I know GDV is a concern with Standard Poodles. Have any of you had this procedure done as a preventative in a younger dog ? Pros/cons on having it done.

ChocolateMillie, I know you have done this with one of your dogs. Have you noticed any "side effects" in Henry ?


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## CharismaticMillie

Henry had an emergency gastropexy performed. He did have significant acid reflux problems after the surgery for unknown reasons. The vet suspected it could be due to reduced stomach motility from the surgery. Although, it's difficult to know for sure. The type of gastropexy he had done was a belt loop. I am not sure if this same type of procedure is done for prophylactic gastropexy.

Henry had GDV and the emergency gastropexy _exactly_ one year ago today. His quality of life has not been changed whatsoever. The acid reflux problems he had went away after a 30 day treatment with Pepcid AC and with the switch to a raw diet. I asked the vet if his life will be negatively affected because of his GDV and he said that Henry should actually live longer now that his stomach is tacked and he is unlikely to ever twist again. 

I know that most people on this forum seem to believe strongly in prophylactic gastropexy done during spay/neuter. I will also tell you that I have spoken to 4 different vets in the St. Louis area and *none* agreed with that opinion. I chose not to have the procedure done with Millie when she was spayed 7 months ago. I go through phases of regretting this but am reassured by almost every vet I speak with. I am not sure why this is the case. I personally feel like I need to do a bit more research that doesn't involve asking people's opinions in order to determine my own opinion. 

I purposely bought a female puppy (Millie) because when Henry had GDV the emergency surgeons told me that GDV is slightly less common in females than males. Also, they explained that the prophylactic gastropexy is easily performed during a spay surgery. So, I bought Millie with every intention of having the surgery performed. But, when it came time for her to be spayed, I couldn't find a vet that was convinced it was a necessary procedure for her. Again, I'm not sure if I made the right decision. 

Personally, I _think_ I would recommend getting the procedure done. I would also recommend waiting until your puppy has fully matured (at least 1 year) before having the spay/pexy done.


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## cliffdweller

ChocolateMillie, thank you so much for your thoughts on this. I will certainly be doing more research on the procedure before I have anything done.

Rain is just over a year old now. I am delaying spaying because her nutrition, etc. during her first year was not the best. I've had her just 3 weeks; she was wormy (!) and is on the thin side. I am moving toward feeding her a raw diet, but am doing it gradually.


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## plumcrazy

I had the gastropexy done when Lucy was spayed, my vet was more than happy to comply with my request - I can't give you any pros or cons yet because there has been no difference in how she eats, acts, is... It's just a little insurance that if she ever (God forbid) would bloat - her stomach is less likely to twist.


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## whitepoodles

I encourage all my puppy clients to gastropexy their dogs when they spay them, but never before 9-10 mos. old as the dog's stomach until this age grows along with them.
Once the surgery is done during the time the dog is spayed I never heard of any side effect except for the occasional burp, but their lifestyle is the same and it gives the owner peace of mind that their dog (may) bloat but NEVER die from it.
I am all for preventative gastropexy on large breeds as is my vet. Also the surgery costs much less when performed together with the spaying / neutering. It costs more for males than females but is well worth it for peace of mind and the dog's life.


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## cliffdweller

Thank you all. I have time to think about this, and though my initial response to the idea of having it done was "if it isn't broken, don't fix it", I am reconsidering ... (somewhat haunted by "if it isn't broken, let's fix it 'til it is").

Thank you ChocolateMillie, for posting your story ("Almost lost him...1 year ago today..."). It brought tears --- thinking of your experience with GDV ... and my own. Henry was a beautiful sight in those photos !

It is a hard decision.


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## Feralpudel

Some vets are reluctant to do it because it is somewhat major surgery and discretionary. A friend in this area tried to get her vet to do it *after* her dog had a bloat incident, and he wouldn't do it! She went to a vet who did and sleeps better at night now. But I have also heard vets say that it is a far easier, less risky procedure done prophylactically than done as an emergency procedure, when the dog may be in shock, etc. 

I would seek out a vet who does a lot of them and is experienced with the technique. I plan to have it done even though I feel Dexter is at relatively low risk for bloat.


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## Liz

For those who had the pexy done at time of spay, did you have an OVH or OVE done?


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## whitepoodles

Feralpudel said:


> Some vets are reluctant to do it because it is somewhat major surgery and discretionary. A friend in this area tried to get her vet to do it *after* her dog had a bloat incident, and he wouldn't do it! She went to a vet who did and sleeps better at night now. But I have also heard vets say that it is a far easier, less risky procedure done prophylactically than done as an emergency procedure, when the dog may be in shock, etc.
> 
> I would seek out a vet who does a lot of them and is experienced with the technique. I plan to have it done even though I feel Dexter is at relatively low risk for bloat.


Feralpudel Hi:

I am confused, are you saying that you know of a dog who bloated but didnt torsion, as such didnt need the gastropexy surgery and vet refused to perform it ?
I never heard of a dog that once in bloat will not also torsion.. Once a dog is bloating the next step is torsion unless immediately taken to the vet to save its life. 
Are you sure that the dog bloated?
If the dog was in bloat and the vet refused to do the surgery, I would as fast as I can complain to the Veterinary Association and bring charges against a vet who refused to perform a surgery that is known to save a dog's life.
To my knowledge I have never seen a dog that once starts bloating to not go into torsion. 
If that really happened than your friend was very fortunate or she may have thought it was bloat but was not ??

There is also no such thing as a dog who is "low risk for bloat".. Bloat comes out of nowhere and claims dogs who do not have this condition in their lineage. It just happens and no one knows when it will hit or at what age. It is always best to consider the worst and gastropexy the dog than to leave it and take a chance.

I am a breeder and as such find it unethical to perform gastropexy procedure on my dogs which I use for breeding. But for my pet clients to whom I sell my puppies on spay neuter contracts (always), I encourage them to seek an experienced vet who knows what bloat and torsion is and who did perform many such surgery and is knowledgeable about the technique. 

The reason I would never tack my breeding stock's stomachs is because I do wish to know if any of my stud dogs or brood bitches ever produce progeny that bloated so that I know who to and who not to continue breeding from.. but pet clients who have no intention to breed should have their dog's stomach's tucked for their dogs' sake and thier own peace of mind.


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## Feralpudel

whitepoodles said:


> Feralpudel Hi:
> 
> I am confused, are you saying that you know of a dog who bloated but didnt torsion, as such didnt need the gastropexy surgery and vet refused to perform it ?
> I never heard of a dog that once in bloat will not also torsion.. Once a dog is bloating the next step is torsion unless immediately taken to the vet to save its life.
> Are you sure that the dog bloated?
> 
> 
> There is also no such thing as a dog who is "low risk for bloat".. Bloat comes out of nowhere and claims dogs who do not have this condition in their lineage.


I have heard of cases where a dog bloated without torsion, but the caveat to that of course is that the dog is at extremely high risk for subsequent episodes of bloat with torsion. I don't know how definitive this dog's case of bloat was, e.g., whether the stomach was decompressed. 

Regarding "low risk" for bloat, if I didn't say "relatively" low risk, I should have. In Dexter's case, his chest is broader and less deep than my first boy's (who bloated at age 8), he is not a stressy dog, and bloat is not prominent in his lines. My point was that even though I consider him relatively low risk, I *still* am planning to tack him because I realize that the lifetime cumulative risk for spoos is very high. I went through this once with a dog who survived, and never want to go through it again if I can help it.


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## whitepoodles

Feralpudel said:


> I have heard of cases where a dog bloated without torsion, but the caveat to that of course is that the dog is at extremely high risk for subsequent episodes of bloat with torsion. I don't know how definitive this dog's case of bloat was, e.g., whether the stomach was decompressed.
> 
> Regarding "low risk" for bloat, if I didn't say "relatively" low risk, I should have. In Dexter's case, his chest is broader and less deep than my first boy's (who bloated at age 8), he is not a stressy dog, and bloat is not prominent in his lines. My point was that even though I consider him relatively low risk, I *still* am planning to tack him because I realize that the lifetime cumulative risk for spoos is very high. I went through this once with a dog who survived, and never want to go through it again if I can help it.


Feralpudel:
I am in total agreement with you, it is not worth taking the risk and many a times I feel I should gastropexy my breeding dogs/bitches and then refrain from doing so because tacking them will not give me a clear indication whether there is or isnt bloat in my line. So I take my chances from an ethical point of view.. Is it worth it.. I dont think so but I cant bring myself to lie to myself..
The dog that bloated and never progressed to torsion is a very lucky animal. I never heard of that.
My female was very narrow chested very petite (15 years ago) and very very laid back.. Well she bloated at age 9 and I barely saved her but $2,500 later she survived. Her age was a factor but given that she was in such wonderful physical condition she survived the grueling surgery...

Breeders should also make it a point to divulge to their clients and talk to them about bloat. Having a novice owner know bloat symptoms can make the difference between saving the dog in time or letting them die in agony.


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## PaddleAddict

I have a question. I thought a gastropexy won't prevent bloat episodes, but it will just prevent torsion duing a bloat episode. Or does the procedure in fact prevent the stomach from filling with gas?

Also, does anyone know if there is more than one way to perform a gastropexy?


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## CharismaticMillie

PaddleAddict, a gastropexy will not prevent bloat, only torsion. Though, the emergency vet who performed Henry's pexy said for some reason dogs that have been tacked seem to have a slightly lower occurrence of bloat.

There is more than one way to perform a gastropexy. Henry had the belt loop procedure performed but this is not the only way. In fact, I believe the belt loop can only be performed with a traditional gastropexy, not with a laparoscopic gastropexy procedure. There is a website somewhere that lists the different types of pexies, the pros, cons and their relative efficacy rates. If I find that link I will attach it.

ETA: Here is one link detailing the different types of gastropexies: http://members.fortunecity.com/houndfancy/procon.html


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## CharismaticMillie

Another interesting article about the types of gastropexy: Canine Bloat Prevention | Gastropexy Surgery | GREATDANELADY.COM


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## plumcrazy

Feralpudel said:


> Some vets are reluctant to do it because it is somewhat major surgery and discretionary.


I agree that it's major surgery, which is why if I had it done while the vet was "in the neighborhood" during Lucy's spay. Her incision was quite a bit larger than if she would have had a traditional spay since the vet's hands had to actually go inside instead of pulling extraneous parts out through a small incision... And, Liz, she had an OVH. Her recovery went well post-op - I'm just glad I had it done as an insurance against torsion.


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## PaddleAddict

ChocolateMillie said:


> Another interesting article about the types of gastropexy: Canine Bloat Prevention | Gastropexy Surgery | GREATDANELADY.COM


Very interesting!


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## NOLA Standards

*My big boy*

When Marques has his next visit, I'm going to schedule his.

Until then, whenever I travel to my parents (little house on the prairie) I let my OCD go crazy dwelling on what would I do!

In NOLA, we have multiple ER vet facilities. At my parents, they are an hour from a McDonald's!

What ( and I did read about the Gas X) would you/could you do - 
God forbid - if your poodle started to bloat and you had that distance to cover?

And Marques isn't the only concern. He will one day be tacked, but Annie and B travel with me, too.

Tabatha


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## whitepoodles

Gas-X is great and I have heard helps.

I also use a fantastic product called Bloat Buster which I order from Nature's Farmacy in Jasper Georgia.

This solution when given to a dog transforms pockets of gas into small passable gas particles and reduces chance of bloat although if bloat happens it will not reverse it will progress to torsion which will necessitate surgical intervention.

Bloat Buster contains Simethicone and Yucca Shidigera
Company's tel. # toll free: 1-888 dogzymes (733-4981)
Nature's Farmacy - Originators of DOGZYMES Products


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## CelticKitti

NOLA I've had this thought many times. There are many weekends we are out on the boat away from everything and I think about what I'd do. 

I carry Gas X generic either thin strips which can be placed directly on the tongue or the gel caps. To give gel caps I cut/bite open the capsule and squeeze the liquid inside onto the dogs tongue(or your finger and smear on the roof of the mouth) Time is key and I don't want to take the time for the capsule to dissolve. 

Simethicone (Gas-X) will not do anything if torsion has already occured but can reduce the gas in the stomach as long as it can get down there. Being away from the vet I feel this is the best chance for me to gain some time to get to the vet.


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## Jessie's Mom

i had jessie tacked when i did her spay. i did not do her spay until she was through her 2nd heat. IMO, i had no choice with jessie. from the day i got her, at 10 weeks of age, she had stomach problems. lots of gas, burping, reflux, etc. i did my research by asking for experiences on this forum and reading everything i could possibly find. i even contacted the Animal Medical Center in NYC. i KNEW it was the best thing to do for her and i still agonized over it. interestingly enough, my vet did not recommend it. however, she went outside of herself and called a specialty hospital in our area and the top doctors there all recommended it. she called me to tell me that if i wanted it done, she would do jessie's spay and they would call in a vet who has years experience in doing gastroplexies. and this is what we did.

i have absolutely no regret in doing this for her. she is a very happy, very active girl, lots of poodle energy. she does burp and regurgitate water once in a while, i use pepcid when she is having a hard time with her stomach. she is not a hyper dog, but i would say she is somewhat nervous with certain situations and she is not herself when she is separated from me. all this effects her stomach.

i worked as a vet tech for 7 years. i saw a great dane bloat & torse, the sounds coming from that poor dog haunted me for a long time to come. they say torsion is one of the most painful things a dog could experience.


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## CharismaticMillie

It's good to hear that I am not the only one who has found resistance from vets. Although, it sounds like I am the only one who actually listened to my vet...perhaps I should have been more insistent.

I have considered doing laparoscopic gastropexy with Millie in the future, but to be honest it is significantly more expensive then Henry's emergency surgery was and right now I simply cannot justify the cost as a graduate student. The money is there for an emergency, though.


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## Feralpudel

ChocolateMillie said:


> I have considered doing laparoscopic gastropexy with Millie in the future, but to be honest it is significantly more expensive then Henry's emergency surgery was and right now I simply cannot justify the cost as a graduate student. The money is there for an emergency, though.


Really? I'm getting quotes from very good vets around here for $800-1000 for lap 'pexy. Mojo's emergency 'pexy and after care was closer to 2k.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> It's good to hear that I am not the only one who has found resistance from vets. Although, it sounds like I am the only one who actually listened to my vet...perhaps I should have been more insistent.
> 
> I have considered doing laparoscopic gastropexy with Millie in the future, but to be honest it is significantly more expensive then Henry's emergency surgery was and right now I simply cannot justify the cost as a graduate student. The money is there for an emergency, though.


CM, one thing i learned about life is that there very little that cannot be changed. i had a boss one time that told me whenever i have a big decision to make, i need to confidently make it with whatever facts i have at hand. IF at any time, i realize it was not the "right" decision, i could change it. what i am trying to share with you is you should not second guess yourself. you made the decision re: millie's tacking based on what you felt at that time. maybe now you feel you were influenced and your own true feelings were distorted. you can do it in the future. right now millie is fine and she probably never showed you signs of stomach problems prior to her spay, so you were more open to possibly not doing it. for me, i would've never had a day of peace had i not tacked jessie - her insecurities as a puppy (bad socialization before i got her, i'm guessing) all came out as stomach problems.

i do believe this is a decision i made not based on emotion, strictly based on evidence that she was high risk based on her stomach problems. i will have more spoos in my future and unless i have an agreement with their breeder to breed, i will definitely tack, whether male or female.


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## whitepoodles

Feralpudel said:


> Really? I'm getting quotes from very good vets around here for $800-1000 for lap 'pexy. Mojo's emergency 'pexy and after care was closer to 2k.


I send my clients to my vet for the gastropexy procedure.

My vet gave me a great deal when he said that he will be performing the gastropexy procedure on both male and females when they reach 10 mos. old and their stomachs have had the time to grow and mature.

My vet who is excellent and one of the best in Canada charges for the preventative gastropexy $600.00 for females and $800 for males, the latter more expensive since he has to make a large incision in a male to tack the stomach whereas in the female during total ovariohysterectomy the abdomen is surgically open enough to allow the gastropexy be done without further incisions.

This preventative surgery is very reasonable whereas if a client of mine will do it after the dog has been neutered/spayed it will be double the cost. 

While your dog is spayed/neutered is the best time to do the gastropexy, and I always suggest the dog be spayed and neutered not earlier than 9-10 mos. of age and gastropexy be done at that time. It works great with all my client's dogs without any side effects whatsoever and peace of mind for the client.


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## Jessie's Mom

jessie's spay cost me $300 - the gastropexy on top of the spay was an additional $150 for a total of $450. i spoke to several other people (here in new york) and that was generally what the cost was, for a female, if done with the spay. again, the gastropexy was done by a vet from a specialty hospital who came on-site to my vet to perform the procedure.

jessie's incision was longer than a traditional spay, however, after it healed, you can even see it - even when her stomach is shaved.


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## whitepoodles

Jessie's Mom said:


> jessie's spay cost me $300 - the gastropexy on top of the spay was an additional $150 for a total of $450. i spoke to several other people (here in new york) and that was generally what the cost was, for a female, if done with the spay. again, the gastropexy was done by a vet from a specialty hospital who came on-site to my vet to perform the procedure.
> 
> jessie's incision was longer than a traditional spay, however, after it healed, you can even see it - even when her stomach is shaved.


This is trully an excellent rate.. Very reasonable, and one we can not ever get here in our area (Montreal, Canada).. Vets are extremely expensive here.
There are procedures that I know some Canadians cross the border with their dogs into Michigan to see U.S. vets who perform a variety of procedures for half the price a Can. vet would. You are very lucky. We pay here through our noses.

Years ago, one of my girls bloated at age 8 and I rushed her to the vet surgeon. $2,800 later she was spayed (plus 15% tax over the quoted amout) was worth every penny, she lived to be 16 years old.


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## CharismaticMillie

Feralpudel said:


> Really? I'm getting quotes from very good vets around here for $800-1000 for lap 'pexy. Mojo's emergency 'pexy and after care was closer to 2k.


Okay - you're right, I looked up the quotes I had and it is about $1,000 for a laparoscopic gastropexy around here + $80 consultation. Henry's emergency was $1,500. The difference is only $400-$500. That is a lot of money to pay for a surgical procedure to prevent something that may not occur. She seems relatively low risk to me, I take a heck of a lot of environmental precautions (whether or not they have any effect). I watch them like a hawk, I listen to their tummies for gut noises and I feel their bellies to make sure they aren't distended. That being said, it is something I may do in the future. 

A traditional gastropexy during a spay would have only been $300 on top of the spay cost. That would have been the way to do it.

Also, if I had known all of this when Henry was a puppy, I would have insisted on the gastropexy during his neuter since there it has been actually reported in his line.


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## Jessie's Mom

wow - i feel like i got a bargain after reading the prices several of you were quoted for doing a preventative gastropexy. i had no idea.

CM, i do the same thing even with the tacking. i listen to her stomach for noices, when i rub her belly i make sure the area feels soft. HOWEVER, this brings to mind a question i've had:

where is a spoos stomach? is it UNDER the rib cage or right before it?? i always thought it was right before it, however, when jess was about 7 months old she ate paper towels left behind by my cleaning lady. the towels had cleaning chemicals on them. i wasn't home, my husband wasn't paying attention. later that day we had to rush her to an emergency hospital where they put her on fluids and pain medication b/c her heart rate was up to 200 from the gastric distress. when the dr showed me the xrays of her stomach, it looked to me that it was under the rib cage which was confusing to me.


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> wow - i feel like i got a bargain after reading the prices several of you were quoted for doing a preventative gastropexy. i had no idea.
> 
> CM, i do the same thing even with the tacking. i listen to her stomach for noices, when i rub her belly i make sure the area feels soft. HOWEVER, this brings to mind a question i've had:
> 
> where is a spoos stomach? is it UNDER the rib cage or right before it??


I'm not a vet but I do believe their stomach is right under their ribcage - closest to their back end. I think this is why dogs with deeper chests are more at risk for GDV - their stomach has room to twist.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> I'm not a vet but I do believe their stomach is right under their ribcage - closest to their back end. I think this is why dogs with deeper chests are more at risk for GDV - their stomach has room to twist.


wow, CM, i'm impressed!! lol how did you find that so fast ? yeah, that's kinda where i think it is. but, i guess, if they bloated, you would see the bloat even in the softer area, below the rib cage. is that right? was that evident with henry's bloat?


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> wow, CM, i'm impressed!! lol how did you find that so fast ? yeah, that's kinda where i think it is. but, i guess, if they bloated, you would see the bloat even in the softer area, below the rib cage. is that right? was that evident with henry's bloat?


No, he wasn't distended at all. 

I know that people whose dogs have bloated say the ribcage is sprung, so I assume the bloating occurs toward the back of the ribcage and possibly the softer area, below the rib cage.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> I'm not a vet but I do believe their stomach is right under their ribcage - closest to their back end. I think this is why dogs with deeper chests are more at risk for GDV - their stomach has room to twist.


CM: you are correct. the larger the chest and spring of rib the more apt is a large breed to bloat.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> No, he wasn't distended at all.
> 
> I know that people whose dogs have bloated say the ribcage is sprung, so I assume the bloating occurs toward the back of the ribcage and possibly the softer area, below the rib cage.


he wasn't distended - so how did you know? i guess you could see he was in pain? sorry to pick your brain again & again.


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> he wasn't distended - so how did you know? i guess you could see he was in pain? sorry to pick your brain again & again.


Yes, read this thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/12609-almost-lost-him-1-year-ago-today.html I started a thread about Henry's GDV. I know I repeat myself about it a lot (sorry everyone), but I figure the more people know about GDV the better! 

We suspected a twisted stomach because he was in such terrible pain and biting/yelping at his stomach. The vet initially told us it probably wasn't bloat because his stomach appeared normal. She said most dogs that come into the clinic with bloat had big ballooned bellies. They only knew for sure after an X-Ray.

The vet did say that he ballooned up while prepping him for surgery, so we must have really caught it early.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> CM: you are correct. the larger the chest and spring of rib the more apt is a large breed to bloat.


so, wp, if they are more _narrow_ chested, the _less_ lilkely they are to bloat? 

jessie is narrow. her chest, at its deepest point (in the front) end just before her front knees. not sure what the "right" proportions are for a spoos chest.


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## CharismaticMillie

By large chest, I think WP means a narrow, deep chest. A narrow, deep chest is supposedly more at risk than a more shallow or broad chest.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Yes, read this thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/12609-almost-lost-him-1-year-ago-today.html I started a thread about Henry's GDV. I know I repeat myself about it a lot (sorry everyone), but I figure the more people know about GDV the better!
> 
> We suspected a twisted stomach because he was in such terrible pain and biting/yelping at his stomach. The vet initially told us it probably wasn't bloat because his stomach appeared normal. She said most dogs that come into the clinic with bloat had big ballooned bellies. They only knew for sure after an X-Ray.
> 
> The vet did say that he ballooned up while prepping him for surgery, so we must have really caught it early.


i will look up the thread. and please YOU don't have any reason to apologize about "repeating yourself". THANK YOU :adore: for taking the time to repeat yourself and for answering my OCD & fear fueled questions. this is such a serious thing that there can never be enough knowledge shared. maybe some day they will find out more about it and we can rest a little easier. it is scary when a medical condition stumps the doctors. and for this reason alone, we tack.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> By large chest, I think WP means a narrow, deep chest. A narrow, deep chest is supposedly more at risk than a more shallow or broad chest.


ok - maybe stupid question: is there a correct width (part of akc conformation) for a spoo? i THINK the depth is suppose to be bottom of the deepest part (front) comes to just about the front knee joint? please feel free to correct me if i am wrong about the depth.


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## whitepoodles

Jessie's Mom said:


> so, wp, if they are more _narrow_ chested, the _less_ lilkely they are to bloat?
> 
> jessie is narrow. her chest, at its deepest point (in the front) end just before her front knees. not sure what the "right" proportions are for a spoos chest.


It is known among poodle breeders that the more spring of rib a dog has the better chance they have to bloat. But that is not always the case. Poodles with narrow chests can also bloat. Nothing is written in stone.

One must also take into consideration the immediate relatives of the dog that bloated to include his dam and sire. If either the dam or sire or any close relative of the dog you have have bloated in past, the likelyhood that either your own dog or at least one of his full/half or relative littermates will also succumb to bloat. 
That is why they say that Bloat isnt necessarily genetic but familial.. meaning the condition can run in some families of dogs but not in others...
Bottom line until the gene marker is found for such ailments as bloat, Epilepsy, SA, Addison's etc... as breeders we are all working in the dark and taking our chances when we do a breeding. None of us can fight mom nature, but we certainly can try to prevent such mishaps with judicial and careful breeding practices.


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## CharismaticMillie

Very true, WP. Henry's grandmother produced a dog that bloated. In hindsight, had my family been more knowledgeable about the familial nature of GDV and had we known about PHR, we most definitely would have had him pexied when he was neutered.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> It is known among poodle breeders that the more spring of rib a dog has the better chance they have to bloat. But that is not always the case. Poodles with narrow chests can also bloat. Nothing is written in stone.
> 
> One must also take into consideration the immediate relatives of the dog that bloated to include his dam and sire. If either the dam or sire or any close relative of the dog you have have bloated in past, the likelyhood that either your own dog or at least one of his full/half or relative littermates will also succumb to bloat.
> That is why they say that Bloat isnt necessarily genetic but familial.. meaning the condition can run in some families of dogs but not in others...
> Bottom line until the gene marker is found for such ailments as bloat, Epilepsy, SA, Addison's etc... as breeders we are all working in the dark and taking our chances when we do a breeding. None of us can fight mom nature, but we certainly can try to prevent such mishaps with judicial and careful breeding practices.


i would like to first say how wonderful it is to have this forum where we - the "pet" owner - can tap into the minds of the people who dedicate their lives to the betterment of this breed. anyone who finds this forum and participate will see in a very short period of time, how many wonderful people there are here.

ok, that being said, i now understand what you mean by "spring" in the rib cage - a wider rib cage as opposed to a more compact, narrow one. i got it now.

according to jessie's breeder, there has never been any incident of bloat in her line EVER. ahemmmm...unfortunately, i now know i knew next to nothing when i looked for a breeder to get my pup from. 'nuff said. again, thank you to the wonderful breeders on this forum.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Very true, WP. Henry's grandmother produced a dog that bloated. In hindsight, had my family been more knowledgeable about the familial nature of GDV and had we known about PHR, we most definitely would have had him pexied when he was neutered.


CM: I fully agree but unfortunately some breeders take producing mishaps very personally and avoid entering dogs in the PHR which they have bred or which emmanated from their lines and who happen to come down with an ailment.
There are many dogs out there who are owned by novices and pet owners who are not familiar with PHR and some who are not in contact with their breeder after the sale was consumated would not know about PRH and their ability to enter the dog in this data.
Entering a dog affected with a certain genetic ailment in the PHR can only be done by the dog's owner not its breeder and many such owners never keep in contact with their breeder and if they do, I have heard of a case where the breeder advised the owner not to enter the affected dog in the PHR data base, so you are damn if you do and damn if you dont.


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## whitepoodles

Jessie's Mom said:


> i would like to first say how wonderful it is to have this forum where we - the "pet" owner - can tap into the minds of the people who dedicate their lives to the betterment of this breed. anyone who finds this forum and participate will see in a very short period of time, how many wonderful people there are here.
> 
> ok, that being said, i now understand what you mean by "spring" in the rib cage - a wider rib cage as opposed to a more compact, narrow one. i got it now.
> 
> *according to jessie's breeder, there has never been any incident of bloat in her line EVER. ahemmmm...unfortunately, i now know i knew next to nothing when i looked for a breeder to get my pup from. 'nuff said. again, thank you to the wonderful breeders on this forum.*




Jessie's Mom: When a breeder lies to a client, they in reality lie to themselves first.
When a breeder does not discuss ailments in the breed with a prospective client or worse one that has already consumated the purchase and went home with such a breeder's pup in essence does a disfavor to both the puppy and the owner.
A breeder should disclose ailments in their line.. I would respect a breeder who is honest and upfront with the client rather than one that uses the same o same o moto "it never happened in my line"
OFCOURSE it happened in her/his line and every line and such a response is utterly ludicrous if not totally misleading.

A breeder who is honest with a client can in fact make the client aware for what signs of emergency to look for when bloat strikes a dog. I have heard so many pet owners and novices say, I didnt know why he looked so fat (meaning his stomach) so I figured he has gas.. OH YE.. he did but if the breeder had prepared them that there is a possibility that the dog may bloat in his lifetime, the owner would of known about the symptoms, rushed the dog to the vet in time and saved his/her life.

No one blames a breeder for producing genetic mishaps, what they blame a breeder for is denying they ever produced this and that when the fact is that one of her/his puppies came down with this condition and surely it wont be the last (unfortunately).

To some breeders their puppies are means of putting food on the table, to others they are means to improve the standard and are loved by them like their own children, hence the saying there are breeders and then there are breeders.

LOL boy am I ever going to get into trouble for this speach... but nonetheless it is a fact. sorry for the lengthy post.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> and some who are not in contact with their breeder after the sale was consumated would not know about PRH and their ability to enter the dog in this data.


not to take this thread off subject, but i WISH jessie's breeder was interested in keeping in touch. i purposely kept in touch for the first couple of months but honestly felt she didn't care to, didn't have the time to...however you want to term it....so i stopped keeping in touch with her. TBH, it bothered me, but i got over it.


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## CharismaticMillie

whitepoodles said:


> It is known among poodle breeders that the more spring of rib a dog has the better chance they have to bloat. But that is not always the case. Poodles with narrow chests can also bloat. Nothing is written in stone.
> 
> One must also take into consideration the immediate relatives of the dog that bloated to include his dam and sire. If either the dam or sire or any close relative of the dog you have have bloated in past, the likelyhood that either your own dog or at least one of his full/half or relative littermates will also succumb to bloat.
> That is why they say that Bloat isnt necessarily genetic but familial.. meaning the condition can run in some families of dogs but not in others...
> Bottom line until the gene marker is found for such ailments as bloat, Epilepsy, SA, Addison's etc... as breeders we are all working in the dark and taking our chances when we do a breeding. None of us can fight mom nature, but we certainly can try to prevent such mishaps with judicial and careful breeding practices.


Interesting that you say this. Every article that I have read and every vet that I have spoken to said that narrow, deep chests are at risk. In calculating your dog's risk, the narrowness and deepness of its chest in comparison to other dogs of the same breed are additional risk factors.


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## whitepoodles

Jessie's Mom said:


> not to take this thread off subject, but i WISH jessie's breeder was interested in keeping in touch. i purposely kept in touch for the first couple of months but honestly felt she didn't care to, didn't have the time to...however you want to term it....so i stopped keeping in touch with her. TBH, it bothered me, but i got over it.


It is very unfortunate. I have no idea how some breeders dont care what happens to the puppies which were literally born in the palm of their hands.

I have forged my most close relationships outside of the breed with clients I have sold puppies to and am still friendly with several now after 15 years. 

Doggy people who trully love dogs find this very much in common.

I feel badly for you that while you wanted to share your happiness with your new pup, your breeder could care less and disappointed you by not only not keeping in touch with you but also not caring enough to do so.

Sad.. but I am glad you got over it.. It can only teach us a lesson which we can use in future when dealing with other breeders and wanting what we did not get with the first one to be able to have with the second one if we ever want another dog... 

Your breeder inspite of her conduct should consider herself very fortunate to have found an owner like you for her puppy.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Interesting that you say this. Every article that I have read and every vet that I have spoken to said that narrow, deep chests are at risk. In calculating your dog's risk, the narrowness and deepness of its chest in comparison to other dogs of the same breed are additional risk factors.


CM do you mean to say that your vet told you that NARROW chested dogs are at risk of bloating vis a vis the ones who have broader chests and well sprung rib cage ? 
This is new to me. I have always been under the impression now for 19 years in the breed that it is the other way around. 
I wonder which article is it that you read. Do you mind forwarding the link to me. This really surprises me.
Also whether a dog's chest is narrow or not, is not really the issue , I will more worry if the dog had a relative or a sire and/or dam or both who bloated and will think the dog may bloat too given one of his relative bloated.
I would rather take the familial component as a guiding source rather than if the dog is slab sided with a poor narrow spring of rib.


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## CharismaticMillie

Yes, I have always read and been told that dogs with *narrow*, deep chests are at risk for bloat. And IMO the familial component is at least partially due to conformation or depth and narrowness of chest as well as tendency for stress.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> [/B]
> 
> Jessie's Mom: When a breeder lies to a client, they in reality lie to themselves first.
> When a breeder does not discuss ailments in the breed with a prospective client or worse one that has already consumated the purchase and went home with such a breeder's pup in essence does a disfavor to both the puppy and the owner.
> A breeder should disclose ailments in their line.. I would respect a breeder who is honest and upfront with the client rather than one that uses the same o same o moto "it never happened in my line"
> OFCOURSE it happened in her/his line and every line and such a response is utterly ludicrous if not totally misleading.
> 
> A breeder who is honest with a client can in fact make the client aware for what signs of emergency to look for when bloat strikes a dog. I have heard so many pet owners and novices say, I didnt know why he looked so fat (meaning his stomach) so I figured he has gas.. OH YE.. he did but if the breeder had prepared them that there is a possibility that the dog may bloat in his lifetime, the owner would of known about the symptoms, rushed the dog to the vet in time and saved his/her life.
> 
> No one blames a breeder for producing genetic mishaps, what they blame a breeder for is denying they ever produced this and that when the fact is that one of her/his puppies came down with this condition and surely it wont be the last (unfortunately).
> 
> To some breeders their puppies are means of putting food on the table, to others they are means to improve the standard and are loved by them like their own children, hence the saying there are breeders and then there are breeders.
> 
> LOL boy am I ever going to get into trouble for this speach... but nonetheless it is a fact. sorry for the lengthy post.


all the info is important, so post away ! and that last part about the motivation behind breeding says it all in a nutshell. IMO, that is the difference between a good breeder (honesty, being upfront with everything they can be) and someone who wants a stay at home job. you are right - no one can give you 100% assurance about anything, but a good breeder does all she/he can to keep the risks low.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Yes, I have always read and been told that dogs with *narrow*, deep chests are at risk for bloat. And IMO the familial component is at least partially due to conformation or depth and narrowness of chest as well as tendency for stress.


CM: correct anything that says DEPTH of chest and WIDE spring of rib is at risk.. Whether the dog is slab sided but has a deep chest or whether the dog has a big spring of rib and not much forchest.. does not matter, either way if any conformation to the spring of rib or the chest describes is as deep or wide, the dog may have a chance at bloating.

Still I would much rather look at the line of dog than at how his chest conformation. The line of dog and what happened to relatives in it is a good indication whether your dog has a high risk of bloat or not.

Dogs that come from a line known to have multiple bloat mishaps may or may not bloat but the chances that their relatives will is high.


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## CharismaticMillie

Well, I won't argue too much because nobody really knows what causes bloat. I am just telling you what I have heard and read. That a dog with a narrow, deep chest as opposed to a broad or shallow chest is at a higher risk.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Well, I won't argue too much because nobody really knows what causes bloat. I am just telling you what I have heard and read. That a dog with a narrow, deep chest as opposed to a broad or shallow chest is at a higher risk.


CM: LOL no one is arguing. I was merely curious to find out where you read and which articles these were. I always accumulate internet articles of interest and if you have such ones I may have not had the chance reading, I would of wanted to ad them to my files.. I do believe what you wrote, I merely wanted you to refer me to the article/link because I found the information interesting and I am always willing to learn new things and expand my knowledge.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> Sad.. but I am glad you got over it.. It can only teach us a lesson which we can use in future when dealing with other breeders and wanting what we did not get with the first one to be able to have with the second one if we ever want another dog...
> 
> Your breeder inspite of her conduct should consider herself very fortunate to have found an owner like you for her puppy.


first, oh yes, i have learned a very invaluable lesson, thanks for this forum

second, thank you, yes she certainly is :bashful:


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## CharismaticMillie

Bloat (Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus) in Dogs
Great Dane Links: BLOAT
Risk Factors for Canine Bloat by Jerold S. Bell DVM, Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
NAIA: Canine Health Foundation reports on bloat study - I would like to find this study and read the results as they tested a hypothesis that dogs with chests that are both deep and narrow were at a high risk.
How to Prevent Bloat - Dr's Corner - The American Dog Magazine
Gastric Dilatation/Volvulus & PRA - Scroll to the bottom of this website. There are several links including the link to the Purdue study (which, yes, is faulty in infinite ways but also does have at least some credibility. In the introduction, they explain that a deep chest with an increased thoracic width to depth ratio is at a higher risk )
Bloat - The Mother of All Emergencies - VeterinaryPartner.com - a VIN company!
Influence of thoracic conformation and genetics on the risk of gastric dilatation-volvulus in Irish setters -- Schellenberg et al. 34 (1): 64 -- Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association

Seems to me that it is pretty commonly accepted that dogs with chests that are both narrow and deep are at particularly high risk.


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## Jessie's Mom

i'm going to attemp to attach a link that lists the causes, symptoms, and characteristics of bloat in a pretty simple form. it seems to support CM original thought about the narrow chested - like my jessie 

Bloat in Dogs


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie;159335Seems to me that it is pretty commonly accepted that dogs with chests that are both narrow and deep are at particularly high risk.[/QUOTE said:


> CM - do we know how narrow - yikes, here i go again....just when i thought i was over my ocd with this situation


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's mom, relax!  Your girl is tacked and she has such a minimal chance of twisting. You can rest your worrying mind.  

I think the idea is that there are so many possible risk factors and we really don't know what causes it. But it seems as though a dog with a chest that is particularly deep and narrow is at higher risk. The articles I read discussed calculating the thoracic depth to width ratio (I believe one of those articles actually has the equation) and the higher the ratio, the higher the incidence of bloat, in that particular study. Another way to think about it is to compare the depth and narrowness of a dog's chest compared to others of the same breed. That will give you an idea. 

But, Jessie's mom, promise me you will go give Jessie a big hug and relax because you have almost no chance of her twisting because she has been tacked!  I'm the one that should be worrying here, with my au naturale Miss Millie!


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## A'n'A Mom

Am looking for the exact figure, but I think the depth and/or width of the chest is less important than the RATIO of depth to width in predisposition to bloat. At least, that's one of the things in the Purdue Bloat Study..... Will keep looking until I find that rascal.


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## CharismaticMillie

A'n'A Mom said:


> Am looking for the exact figure, but I think the depth and/or width of the chest is less important than the RATIO of depth to width in predisposition to bloat. At least, that's one of the things in the Purdue Bloat Study..... Will keep looking until I find that rascal.


Yes, yes! The thoracic depth to width ratio.

It actually mentions it in the introduction of the Purdue bloat study itself. Although, that is a PDF so I cannot post it. But, the link to the Purdue Bloat Study is at the very bottom of this website: http://www.irishwolfhounds.org/GDV.htm.

It is also discussed in the abstract of this article: http://www.jaaha.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/1/64


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## A'n'A Mom

Thank heavens for the internet Wayback Machine!! 

Epidemiology

The chest depth to width ratio is discussed in the 3/1/2000 update.

For those who want more in depth information about bloat, including dealing with the veterinarian who tells you the stomach's not rotated, check out the January 1997 Bloat Notes and the link on the above page.

For the chest ratio thing, it's important to remember that this part of the study was done by the researchers physically measuring as many dogs of the breed as they could get their hands on. That included going to the breed specialty shows of the chosen breeds to come up with a 'norm'. So, when they talk about a greater depth to width ratio, they are measuring from a breed norm. Of course, it has been said that since so many dogs were measured at PCA, in the case of SP's, what was seen as a 'norm' may infact represent more of a 'show' conformation. I'm not sure that really makes much difference as we all know that a really good groom can create fore-chest and depth when maybe it's not really there.....or so I've heard ;-)
The whole point is that the deeper and narrower the chest is, the more room there is for the ligaments that hold the stomach in place to stretch. This is probably also the reason that there is an increased risk as the dog gets older.....stuff stretches and sags (but, of course, I wouldn't know anything about that either <wink, wink>).

Anyway, it makes for fascinating reading!


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## CharismaticMillie

Thanks for the awesome post, A'n'A Mom!!


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## Liz

plumcrazy said:


> And, Liz, she had an OVH. Her recovery went well post-op - I'm just glad I had it done as an insurance against torsion.


Thanks, Plum. Has anyone heard of a pexy being performed with an OVE? I'd prefer to leave as much intact as possible.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> But, Jessie's mom, promise me you will go give Jessie a big hug and relax because you have almost no chance of her twisting because she has been tacked!  I'm the one that should be worrying here, with my au naturale Miss Millie!


cm, i'm sorry, i'm just plain nuts :crazy: however, i really appreciate your bringing me back to reality :hug: and i did give jessie a great big kiss on her currently furry face :kiss2:


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## Jessie's Mom

so the question is, did we help you are all Nu2P ??


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## cliffdweller

Jessie's Mom said:


> so the question is, did we help you are all Nu2P ??


Yes you did ! I'm leaning toward having it done now .... when the time comes ...

Thank you all for your very fine responses !

_______________________


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