# Not to cause an argument...



## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

Okay, so I have a guilty pleasure. When I have a spare moment I will search through poodle breeder's webpages for information, ideas, and yes - cute pictures of puppies!

Despite being a poodle enthusiast for almost 3 years now, I stumbled upon something I've never heard of....merle poodles?

Admittedly, some of them are cute. (And some are freakish looking). I saw some (but very few) forums on these merle coated poodles being in-bred with recessive genes. Is this true for *all* merle poodles? Is there a 'clean' way to get a merle poodle?

This is all based on curiosity. I know breeding can be a source of contention for dog forums - and I don't want any hostility directed towards anyone. :adore: Thanks.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I find this an interesting ,too. I am also interested in learning about parti and phantom genes. I have tons of books about poodles and I really find the old ones interesting. I also go frequently to the Poodle History Project. 

To me Poodles are "like a box of chocolates" and I want to learn as much as I can about all of them.

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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

The problem with Merle is that it is a dominant gene. If Poodles natively came in merle, they would have been around from the dawn of Poodledom. Which, they haven't. So, somewhere along the line, someone tossed in a sheltie/aussie/border collie/etc.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree there are some Merle poodles that make me want to get one so bad! But like Aubrey said the gene had to be passed from a different breed. there are some Merle "doodles" that have been bred back to poodles over and over so they retain the plush curly coat. The only way you can tell the are not full poodle is by the Merle color. So that might be a good option if you really want one. I know of a breeder in the San Francisco area that breeds Aussi-Doodles. One of her Dams, a blue merle, is so beautiful! And she looks pure poodle (except for her color obviously). Also a thing to be cautious about is Double Merle (when the dog inherits two Merle genes). It cause blindness and deafness. So be cautious of a pup with two Merle parents. 


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Given the known issues with the merle gene, I cannot believe that any breeder who truly cares for the welfare of dogs would seek deliberately to introduce it into a breed or cross, just to produce a "rare" (and therefore expensive) colouring. As PoodleCrazy says, the effects of breeding merle to merle can be devastating - it's also known as "lethal white" for good reason.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

While I won't argue that breeding a double merle is a bad idea, the term lethal white is actually not the appropriate term. They're simply double Merle's.
Lethal Whites - The White Aussies Project, at Lethal Whites .Com


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know with poodles, but i have Emilio, my merle chihuahua. The gene was also not in original chihuahua's so there has to be some other kind of dog somewhere in the background. With chihuahua's merles are often deaf, oversized, and very timid. Emilio is a bit timid, his size is good and he can hear. His whole back end is weird. Pelvis at a really weird angle. Slipped hocks (his legs in the back actually bend backwards like a stork a lot of the time), knees that dislocate with every step. All the vets that have looked at him agree he is in no pain (yet), but they all say the same thing, he just moves really off, and yet its hard to pinpoint what it is. He also has chronic pancreatitis. 

Emilio was a rescue, and he is very poorly bred. Doesn't make me love him any less, but he sure has been expensive for a free dog


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

I've had a lot of experience with herding breeds - so "lethal white" is a term I'm all to familiar with. I am not for breeding "rare" or "exotic" colors. I am for breeding for health, temperament, and adherence to the set standard for that breed - with a few exceptions such as parti colored poodles, I will never get why AKC doesn't allow them to be registered or show! 

I've shown dogs, but I've done much more on the rescue side and it kills me when these "designer dogs" become fashion statements - I love my poodle because she's a poodle, and she is beautiful, intelligent, and devoted dog! She could be polka dotted and I wouldn't care!

With my original breed and main breed I show, Italian Greyhounds, for a while some breeders were breeding dilutes together or pieds to pieds. The result was some solid white dogs, often deaf, or blues with horrible skin problems and hair loss. A dog with recessive genes should never bred I another with recessive genes. My Aiyana is deaf. This is a result of me breeding pied to Wild Irish - I thought it was a safe cross, she was my 2nd litter from the same parents, and the only solid white. But she couldn't be more perfect - but she is why I stopped breeding IGs. I may breed some breed again in the future but never again without a much more in depth understanding of all recessive genes in the breed to prevent another Aiyana. She's beautiful and perfect - My rescue girl Rosie is also solid white, and deaf and blind. I'm sure she's a pied to pied cross. Very sad - but loved none the less, she loves life despite her disabilities!

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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Servicepoodlemomma said:


> I will never get why AKC doesn't allow them to be registered or show!
> 
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Sort of side note, but while Parti-Poodles can't be shown AKC, they can be _registered_ with AKC. 

Can you elaborate a little about dogs with recessive genes not being bred to dogs with recessive genes? Generally speeking, there isn't anything wrong with this. It's done all the time. Do you mean certain specific recessive genes that do or can lead to disease?


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

One of my customers had an Australian shepherd that they rescued from a "breeder" who had a litter of double merles. She was white and born with no eye balls. The breeder was going to have her put down. 


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Sort of side note, but while Parti-Poodles can't be shown AKC, they can be _registered_ with AKC.
> 
> Can you elaborate a little about dogs with recessive genes not being bred to dogs with recessive genes? Generally speeking, there isn't anything wrong with this. It's done all the time. Do you mean certain specific recessive genes that do or can lead to disease?


I've done a little research on this awhile ago - hence why I brought it up - and from what I've read, the Merle gene has blindness piggy-backed onto it (that's why Merle breeders highlight the blue eyes, even though poodles haven't evolved with blue eyes).

I'd never purchase a Merle for the fact that I've heard health problems galore - blindness, deafness, sickly timid personas, etc. If this fad gets wind, I'm afraid we'll see Merles in shelters because of vet bills (much like the US's blue nosed pit). 

Does anyone know if phantoms or partis have any health concerns connected with the genes of their coloring? It is my life's mission to own, at some point in my life, a poodle of every color. That includes parti and phantom unless they have health issues (besides the typical poodle concerns).


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

Recessive to recessive often brings up undesirable traits - but yes, I should correct myself in saying this is only the case with SOME recessive genes, others are fine - this is where research and knowing the breed and it's problems come into play. But sometimes doubling a recessive gene can and does lead to problems. I see it a lot with different breeds with different colors - genetics can get very complicated, hence why I don't breed and prefer to rescue, I'd rather leave the breeding to those dedicated and have the time and money to do all the genetic research! I simply don't have that kind of money or time - so I enjoy my beautiful pets!


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

Cpl


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

Wow, I have no idea that people bred dogs knowing that there are big chances that they would turn out unhealthy! This is SO VERY new to me. I wonder what happens to the ones that are born physically unfit to be sold...I am just glad that although I do have a preference for certain color on dogs, it could never be at the top of my list!


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

Most "breeders" euthanize the very obviously unhealthy ones- deformed/missing eyes, caved in skulls, etc.

Dogs with only one copy of the merle gene are normally healthy in every way. Very rarely do the suffer eye or ear impediments. It is when you have two copies of the gene that you play health roulette.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There are breeders who deliberately breed merle to merle, taking the hit of an average 25% of pups being born deformed or disabled in order to maximise the number of pretty, high value, merles in the litter... And sometimes, as ServicePoodleMomma says, a dog can carry the merle gene without it being apparent.

The UK Kennel Club won't register merle chihuahuas, on the grounds there had to be an outcross to another breed involved and that deliberately developing merles in breeds where they don't naturally occur is not something they want to encourage.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

Yes, there are breeders who deliberately breed merle to merle. Those breeders aren't really in it for dogs and shouldn't be worthy of the term breeder.

However, very few responsibly bred litters are M x M. Yes, it happens occasionally, but those litters are planned with other things in mind- conformation, health, etc. In breeds with a small gene pool, like Hungarian Mudi for example, sometimes the best breeding cross is merle to merle. To add to the fun in Mudi, they also come in ee red, which, like in poodles, causes the red/cream/white to cover all other color patterns but they can still pass it on. 

As for cryptic merles- they used to be very rare and I still wouldn't call them common. And I don't think they are as common as many breeders would leave you to believe. I'm not saying they aren't there. But merle is a random marking placer, which means it isn't restricted to the legs, chest and feet(like tan). So, generally, there is merle elsewhere on the dog that isn't covered by white. I think the breeders that are producing these dogs are looking for a scapegoat- "Oh, we didn't know he was merle!"

As for the other "downfalls" of merle- timidness and the likes are from shoddy breeding, not from the merle gene. The deafness, blindness and other eye/ear anomalies are a by-product of merle x merle, but it isn't merle itself that causes it. Double merle dogs have high instances of white pigment. Pigment originates in fetuses around the area that also develops into eyes and ears. The white color "turns off" several genes in the area it is causing to not have pigment. This results in deafness, blindness, irregular eye development, etc.

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/doublemerle.html

Does the UK KC allow merle in Pomeranians? They are another unfortunate merle fashion statement.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not sure about Poms - the KC will not register chihuahua merle puppies, or chihuahua pups with a merle parent, and will no longer register merle to merle litters from any breed (from 1/1/2013). Doesn't stop people advertising KC registered merle chihuahua studs and litters, though!


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## pap2labc (Jun 25, 2010)

I like the merle pattern, but not really in poodles because as others have pointed out, you're not going to get it in 100% poodle. I also have border collies and my dogs' lines have merle in them. One of my dogs is white with blue merle spots and blue eyes (parents were black tri/white factored & blue merle). You cannot get merle puppies unless one parent is merle and I don't think a truly responsible breeder EVER breeds merle to merle due to fact that some of the puppies will be deaf/blind. That's just too big of a risk. I hate that some breeders intentionally do merle to merle breedings. The rough collie that took breed at Westminster is a double merle. 

That being said, responsibly bred merle pups (one merle parent) don't have any associated health issues. We BAER test/CERF all dogs and puppies and there haven't been any eye issues or deafness. Excessive white in border collies is also not associated with health issues. White factored is NOT lethal white, but means that there is more white on the dog than just feet/blaze/chest. I don't breed for color, but rather temperament, working ability, health. It just so happens that white factored and merle are something that are there. 

I'm tempted to wear a shirt that says "I'm not a double merle" when I have my mostly white and blue merle girl at trials, though.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

hello jcjshelton
indiscriminate breeding of poodles? welcome to the world of rescue and dealings with back yard breeders. Some come from people breeding dogs without any knowledge or sense of contributing to the poodle breed.
I have great respect for poodle breeders, what an art and a calling! And with so much determination, education and great knowledge, beautiful dogs are born and continue the poodle standards!


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

I saw a poodle puppy at a show last weekend that looked like it was a merle. it was black and grey and I couldn't decide if it was a merle or a brindle. Very interesting looking. it had a GORGEOUS coat!!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I wouldn't go out of my way to support merle poodle breeders for two reasons:
1) Merle is not part of the original poodle gene pool. Something got crossed into poodles to give the color. You are really just buying a doodle, but with less honesty about the product.
2) The way the merle gene expresses itself encourages abusive breeding practices. A single copy of the merle gene will give the merle color pattern. Two copies of the merle gene is not twice as good: it is likely to produce a dog which is blind and/or deaf and/or has abnormalities like missing eyes. When one parent is merle, only half the litter (on average) will be merle. That means someone who is breeding primarily for color will statistically get a 50% failure rate for each litter. However, by using a double merle parent, the breeder will get 100% merle offspring. So, to maximize production of the desirable puppies, an unethical breeder can deliberately do a merle to merle cross, risking blind/deaf puppies, to get double merle breeding stock. I don't like to encourage that temptation.


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## elem8886 (Sep 19, 2012)

I feel like I have to repeat the thread's title before I post this but, I'm not trying to start an argument 

I know some people don't like Paris Poodles because they are stockier than most poodles and the website doesn't list champions or titles, etc., but, leaving that aside - what do you think of their information about the merle pattern?
Paris Poodles- Poodles Markings.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Having previously owned a Paris poodle that bloated at 18 months and had the poorest health of ANY dog I have ever owned and died before he was 6 years old because of this, I really don't trust much that she says. I emailed her regarding the bloat, she never did get back to me and has never posted it to PHR. Champions and titles aside, health should be important to every breeder, not just the almighty dollar. Which is what I believe a breeder of merles is ultimately after. JMHO


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Got to admit when it comes to merles, being the owner of Paris Poodles Sisko who is the lovely chap featured as the brindle specimen, that I could wish Joanne Paris had not gone there in her breeding program. That being said, and also admitting to being a complete ignoramus about genetics, I think what she has to say makes some sense to me. 

How do we know merle was not in the original poodle, when would that have been, who was around documenting that? We are not even totally sure exactly where poodles came from are we? Who knows what was floating around in the eighteenth century! Partis were not preferred and were getting eliminated as well were they not?

As an aside. I'm sorry for Poodle Power's experience and agree with her that after purchase communication from the Paris Poodles end is very slow if not absent and would certainly be a major PO when dealing with the bad health of a loved pet.

Sisko is healthy, but he did nearly bloat after a set of very emotionally worrying (for him) circumstances and developing enteritis. It was not an out of the blue event. Unfortunately, dogs like people are not all born healthy, some families deal with the tragedy of tiny tots with horrible cancers and no one knows why it happened to them, sometimes it just does. 

Anyway that was me off on a tangent - Who can convince me merles only got into poodles by crossbreeding. And what if the crossbreeding happened 300 years ago as happened at the foundation of many modern breeds........what then?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think if it happened 300 years ago, we would have seen them before now. The first merle I ever saw was about 5 years ago, so this is all very new, and I am sure it was done as a marketing ploy to sell dogs for huge bucks.


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

The part I really don't get is, I think they're ugly. Even assuming a merle was 100% poodle vs. a crossbreed introduction, I don't get how the aesthetic is striking enough to outweigh any health risk.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

I know this thread is called " I don't want to start an argument," but sacrificing/euthanizing (aka murdering) the 25% of puppies as collateral damage just seems like pure evil to me...regardless of how beautiful/exotic the rest of them seem, the practice of this is disturbing to me...


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## elem8886 (Sep 19, 2012)

I'm sorry for your bad experiences Poodle Power, I had read about that in another thread. I'm not trying to start a debate about their breeding practices here it's just that I remembered reading about the merle pattern in poodles on their site. 

Siskojan that's what I mean - how is it determined that merle was _never_ a poodle pattern? When did solid colour poodles became the desired pattern and what happened to all the other markings at that point? Once a dog breed is recognized by a Kennel Club are registries always closed (I know other livestock isn't necessarily)? Yes, breeders could select dogs and breed away from multi-colour coats but I'm sure many patterned puppies were culled - dogs haven't always been treated the way they are today and many old practices would now be considered cruel or unethical. Couldn't recessive traits/incomplete dominant traits, such as merle, have survived? 

If that is completely impossible does that mean that people have just faked a dog's history to get it registered with the AKC or Canadian Kennel Club? Are there tests that can be done to determine whether a poodle is actually a poodle? 

Again, I genuinely want to learn about these things, not start an argument.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

Historically, merle is a herding dog color pattern. There is no gundog breed in existence(or even in paintings!) that shows the color pattern. Many gundogs come in roan, which is sometimes confused with merle), but Poodles are not one of them.



> Many believe it must be a recessive gene because it doesn't affect the appearance of red, apricot and red or diluted colors such as blues and silvers. In addition, it can be hard to see or not evident at all on black and brown dogs
> (cryptic).





> What we know for certain is that Merle was likely a recessive gene at one point as it is still in many breeds.
> Why it now expresses as a dominant in some breeds is unknown. (still to be studied)


I have to say that this person is full of poop. Depending on when this was written, okay maybe she had the ball rolling back then(10 years ago). However, in the last 7 years SO MUCH has been learned about merle, recessive yellow and other colors that this page only makes her look like a scam to those remotely knowledgeable in genetics(and unfortunately, it makes her seem like guru to those who aren't).
In the first quote- Recessive yellow(ee), which causes creams/apricots/reds, works by "blanketing" the other genes responsible for coat color. Genetically, an ee dog is still black or liver(or even merle!), but it doesn't show that since the yellow gene is being expressed over the others.
In the second quote- Merle is dominant. If you have one copy of M, you are are merle. It isn't like liver, which is recessive, where you have to have two copies of b to be liver. Even with a recessive gene "hiding" in a population, you still see it regularly. Curly coat retrievers and Field Spaniels are dominated by black dogs, but guess what? There are still ample amounts of liver dogs. Even though 100 years ago only BLACK field spaniels were being bred, there still where liver dogs. On the other side of the spectrum- German Shorthaired Pointers. Traditionally, they were both black and liver(remember, black is dominant to liver, just like merle is dominant to non-merle). At one point, it became uncouth to own/breed black GSP(fickle Victorian age). Guess what- they are still around, even though black was a "bad" color that people tried to breed away from(and AKC doesn't accept!). 

So this isn't a case of a recessive gene and the hidden ugly red-headed step children thru the ages. It is a case of someone bred their poodle to a sheltie/aussie/border collie to get merle poodle, register it with false parentage(and likely false color information). Then, they bred that merle "bastard" dog to other poodles to reattain correct coat texture and general appearance. Chances are good that this was done by several people using several different false parents so that it didn't look as fishy.
_____

Sorry for the bit of a rant/tangent there, but I am so disappointed by the OH LOOK A MERLE PITBULL/CHI/POM/POODLE, IT'S RAAAAAARE mentality put out by unscrupulous breeders. If merle was present in a breed at origin, it will be present today simply by how it works, even if it became uncool during some point during the turn of time.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I find it interesting that while there are plenty of early paintings of parti and solid poodles, there are no merles - nor is there any record of them. Merles have been highly desirable in most of the breeds where they occur naturally - I find it hard to believe that had the pattern been "native" to the poodle breed, even if it were rare, there would not have been examples on record over the last few hundred years. As it is, the pattern has emerged since the advent of the doodle/designer dog craze, when poodles started being crossed with every breed under the sun. And is it just coincidence that so many of the founder population of merle poodles had their origins in kennels also producing breeds carrying the merle gene...


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Actually since merle is a semi lethal dominate most merles carry only one copy of the gene. So breeding merle to merle gives you 50% non merles and 50% merle many of which die in utero. Now double merle to double merle would give you 100 % merle along with all the problems including a large portion of the puppies dieing in utreo so the over all litter sizes are smaller.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

*Double merle isn't a lethal gene.* The term "lethal gene" refers to a gene that causes death(either directly or from an abnormality that is a direct result of the gene), like double overo in horses. Aussie breeders who also are involved with horse breeding, coined the term into dog genetics incorrectly. Once again, there is nothing lethal about merle, unless you are chemically euthanizing puppies at the vet's office. Being double merle can give you health issues, but it does not directly cause death.
http://www.amazingaussies.com/What are Lethal Whites.pdf

SpindledDreams- 
Actually, breeding Mm(merle) to Mm(merle), will give you statistically 25% MM(double merle), 50% Mm(merle) and 25% mm(non-merle). 
Breeding a Mm(merle) to a mm(non-merle) will result in 50/50 merle/non-merle.
Yes, MM to MM will result in all MM offspring.
See this link for punnit squares on merle inheritance.
Dog Coat Colour Genetics

The only way to produce a completely merle litter is by breeding a MM to a mm(a double merle to a non-merle). As someone stated earlier(sorry, I can't be bothered to go looking!).


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

This is a very interesting discussion in genetics, I'm intrigued by the great knowledge of the members here! 

Not allowing Parti poodles in the show ring is one thing that always bothered me about the AKC since it is an original coat pattern! Merles I'm in agreement had to be introduced by falsifying litter records. Sadly I see it all to often!!!


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

The Victorian era had heavy influence on many of the standards currently upheld by the parent clubs(who then in turn submit them to the AKC). Some clubs see no reason to change, while others look into historical colors prior to the Victorian age and go from there. Sometimes the reasons are purely superficial, while others were based on what they saw as handicaps or health issues. Not all those handicaps or health issues were soundly scientific, but we know SO MUCH more now that sometimes it is a bit of a laugh...


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Jcjshelton said:


> I know this thread is called " I don't want to start an argument," but sacrificing/euthanizing (aka murdering) the 25% of puppies as collateral damage just seems like pure evil to me...regardless of how beautiful/exotic the rest of them seem, the practice of this is disturbing to me...


 Yes ... but actually breeding for them, advertising them, selling them for more than "regular" colors. 
I do not respect a breeder that will jump on the $ bandwagon, and I feel the merle is as close to the doodle $ that you can get without actually breeding a doodle.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

There was a thread here fairly recently entitled "Merle Standard Poodle" where many of these issues were mentioned. Here's a link to a blog that I included in that previous thread as well: Musings of a Biologist and Dog Lover: Mismark Case Study: Poodle

Aubrey's post is spot-on. The fact is that there is ample evidence for the parti coloration being present historically in the breed: paintings, old photos, contemporary material from the time period. The decision was made by the breed club to favor the solid colors (I'm sure there were reasons, from setting the breed apart from the spaniel-type retrievers to prominent people in the breed club having the opinion that the partis were "ugly"), but the coloration did not disappear despite falling out of favor.

The merle coloration had to have come from another breed. It couldn't have spontaneously appeared, any more than "silver" labs somehow magically appeared in a breed with absolutely no history of that color. (And in a kennel that happened to breed a variety of gundogs, including Weims. Hmm...)

--Q


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

elem8886 said:


> ...When did solid colour poodles became the desired pattern and what happened to all the other markings at that point? Once a dog breed is recognized by a Kennel Club are registries always closed (I know other livestock isn't necessarily)? Yes, breeders could select dogs and breed away from multi-colour coats but I'm sure many patterned puppies were culled - dogs haven't always been treated the way they are today and many old practices would now be considered cruel or unethical. Couldn't recessive traits/incomplete dominant traits, such as merle, have survived?
> 
> If that is completely impossible does that mean that people have just faked a dog's history to get it registered with the AKC or Canadian Kennel Club? Are there tests that can be done to determine whether a poodle is actually a poodle?
> 
> Again, I genuinely want to learn about these things, not start an argument.


Please, old-timers, forgive me for dragging out this post yet again, but I didn't want to re-write it. When a similar discussion about parti came up, I did some digging into an old book of mine and found this. It does not address merle, but it is apropos to the musing that elem was doing above as far as when solids became preferred.

...

I have a rather huge old tome, The Book of the Poodle, by Anna Katherine Nichols, which in its history section on "Earlier Standards of the Ideal Poodle" notes that both the Russian and the German standards allowed for white and black dogs (partis), while the French standard specified solid colors. Later the book discusses a split in the '30's as the Poodle Club of America had to decide whether to go with the German or the French standard, "although it was the German type that had been dominant in the United States previous to that time" (Nichols 36). The text notes that coat and clips were an area of difference between the standards. The decision was ultimately made to go with the Anglo-French standard, and there was a rush of dogs imported from England who would have a better chance to compete under the new standard.

This is the most detail I have ever been able to find in regards to the decision to allow only solid colored dogs. My internet hunting has turned up nothing even so specific as that, usually saying the decision to make multi-colored a disqualifying fault was made "for arbitrary reasons." I was particularly interested in any functional reason why solid dogs should be preferred, based on their water-retriever roots, but have found nothing of the kind. Just a political decision based upon the particular aesthetics of those in charge and in the majority at the time. I would welcome any further information about the subject. 

So think, if politics has swung another way, we might have had multi-colored poodles from the beginning! They are historically legitimate and there's no real reason to eradicate them from the breed. Furthermore, they are acceptable in more open-minded (dare I say historically cognizant?) registries than AKC or FCI.

Reference:
Nicholas, Anna Katherine., Hayes Blake. Hoyt, Wendell J. Sammet, and Joseph P. Sayres. The Book of the Poodle. [Redhill]: T.F.H., 1982. Print.

...

Again, no mention of merle, even in the exhaustive information in this huge book. The color was never part of the Poodle makeup.

--Q


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

yep your right should not post in middle of my work night


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

As I look over at my parti colored boys, I can see three reasons why you might consider white spotting a handicap. First, you can't control where the spots appear. If my boys were in a show trim, the lines of their spots would cut right across the lines of their rosettes, saddle, and bracelets. The visual effect would be rather odd. Second, their white and their colored hair has different textures. They are therefore prone to matting at some of the color transition lines. Finally, my boys have pink skin under their white spots. A regular white poodle has dark skin even though the hair is white. I could see my boys having problems with sunburn when the hair is trimmed very short, especially if the dog gets wet. Since I'm neither showing nor out all day hunting, these drawbacks aren't really an issue for me. However, I can see why one might want to breed away from the traits.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Interesting observations, cowpony. Thank you for sharing.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

What amazes me about the Paris poodle website is all her dogs have an amazing low Coi but no where does it show a pedigree, I was able to find a few of the dogs listed on the OFA website, but with very few test results. I also agree if merle was an original gene within poodles that the old time multi color breeders would have found it since they all had a practice of mixing every color they could think of together to come up with something "rare". The parti/piebald gene is a simple recessive, it can be bred out or bred into a line. Along with markings being a problem on the body what I also see is missing pigment within the points --nose, eye rims and the not so pretty inner eye lid. What has kept PCA members at bay is the terrible breeding without any regard to structure or health issues. Now that there are a handful of breeders working on making the multi colors look like what the standard calls for some eyebrows have been raising and heads turning. I do not know of any health issue connected with parti or phantom markings any different then what the breed already carries. There are some health issues connected with certain lines just as there are with certain solid lines. But blue eyes have never been one of them.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

So does this explain the term "French poodle "? And now we can refer to the parti as "German pudel "... Better be careful, I might start a fad... LOL.

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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

I've heard of and known a lot of breeders but never this Paris person. What state does she breed in?

And I love when expert poodle sites say the poodle is French. Clearly they don't know much about the breed!


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Soooo ... what can you say to a person that says "Oh, what a lovely American Standard Poodle"? He's not a bathroom fixture, lol.


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## nettiekind (Jun 28, 2017)

Hi,
I just rescued a standard poodle with interesting markings and wondered if anyone can help me identify if he is a tri parti, if so what kind, or if not, what else, etc? Never owned a poodle before.
Here is a photo: http://www.poodleforum.com/attachmen...1&d=1498688320

He has dark "eyeliner" around his eyes, which are amber in color, very long chocolate eyelashes, a creamy body (most of his body) with grey and tan markings like a saddle around his middle and flanks, chocolate ears, dark chocolate around his lips and lighter chocolate ears. He is one year old and weighs 40 lbs.

A photo is attached.

Any help is appreciated!
Attached Thumbnails
new to the Poodle Forum-img_2093.jpg


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

cowpony said:


> As I look over at my parti colored boys, I can see three reasons why you might consider white spotting a handicap. First, you can't control where the spots appear. If my boys were in a show trim, the lines of their spots would cut right across the lines of their rosettes, saddle, and bracelets. The visual effect would be rather odd. Second, their white and their colored hair has different textures. They are therefore prone to matting at some of the color transition lines. Finally, my boys have pink skin under their white spots. A regular white poodle has dark skin even though the hair is white. I could see my boys having problems with sunburn when the hair is trimmed very short, especially if the dog gets wet. Since I'm neither showing nor out all day hunting, these drawbacks aren't really an issue for me. However, I can see why one might want to breed away from the traits.


Bless you, cowpony, for offering what I think is the best argument for breeding solid color poodles. I have always believed that the difference in coat texture is a real issue.


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## Mia42 (Sep 5, 2016)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Soooo ... what can you say to a person that says "Oh, what a lovely American Standard Poodle"? He's not a bathroom fixture, lol.


"This, my friend, is a German Curly Coated Retriever."


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## Coco86 (Oct 23, 2014)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> Soooo ... what can you say to a person that says "Oh, what a lovely American Standard Poodle"? He's not a bathroom fixture, lol.


? Too funny! Coincidentally our kitchen faucet is an American Standard.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

nettiekind said:


> Hi,
> I just rescued a standard poodle with interesting markings and wondered if anyone can help me identify if he is a tri parti, if so what kind, or if not, what else, etc? Never owned a poodle before.
> Here is a photo: http://www.poodleforum.com/attachmen...1&d=1498688320
> 
> ...


I was not able to view you photo...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Beautiful Blue said:


> I was not able to view you photo...


Neither was I.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

i'm also unable to see the picture, but from your description it sounds like he might be a silver beige that's clearing.


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## Dancer920 (May 16, 2016)

IMO if you are breeding for color to get the "rare", it's a breeder looking to make $$$$ and not necessarily caring about the breed or the standard in my experience. When I was showing Shiba Inus a number of years ago the major colors that where the ones you wanted where the Red, Red Sesame or the Black and Tan. Then all of a sudden you saw certain so called "breeders" advertising "Rare" white or cream Shibas for big $$$$$. You know darn well the people buying them where probably buying to breed and make big bucks of their own even though those colors where frowned upon in breed standard. I do have a Blue Merle Border Collie who was given to me by one of my 4H members after my main girl passed away. Fortunately he can hear and no health issues but it is unbelievable how many people want to breed on color alone and don't research anything....they just look at he dollars they think they can make. Sideline, he is neutered. Got sick of the people who insisted I should loan him to them as a stud constantly.


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