# advice pls. biting kids - rehome?



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Have you worked with an animal behavorist? that would be my first thing i would do. 

for a few reasons 
1- it might work out the issues in the house. 
2- It will help you cope until she's rehomed if that's what you decide to do. 
3-knowing she's had some training work done with a behavorist will help her find a new home. 

It's tough- reality is kids need to come first. Do you seperate her from the kids at this point? I would not let them together unless supervised (Dog on leash IMO) I would create ALL GOOD FEELINGS for the dog. Bring her out around the kids when they are being quiet (watching tv etc) ask her to do some behaviors she knows (Sit, watch me etc) rewarding her for that. you want to rewire her brain to think good things around kids. 

BTW the fact she has NOT drawn blood is a HUGE Plus in her part. it shows she has bite inhibition and was 'warning' the kids not actually 'attacking viciously"


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Hi, thank you for the reply. I have not contacted a behaviorist - we did take her to a trainer immediately after the first bite. He was a bit harsh for my taste - choke collar, yanking her...that's not how I want my dog treated. We did not go back.

I just took her for a car ride to the school. She was growling at everyone who walked by our car. Basically she is afraid of all people, not just kids. Any adult who comes into our home is growled at...she is very nervous and I don't know if that behavior can be changed? 

What I think happened is that the breeder did not socialize her at all - he had other dogs that he showed so the puppies spent a lot of time in the back of his van while they were at shows. We were heartbroken when our 10yr old apricot std. died....and we rushed out to get another dog. Too soon, not enough background checking...I know it now. AND she was "discounted" b/c she was one of two pups left in the litter. I KNOW it was wrong to rush out...

So I guess my question is - can you change the personality of the dog?


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I personally feel that rehoming her would be the best option for everyone. It would be AWEFUL if she actually did bite your kids hard, and then euthanasia talks are on the table. It sounds like she is not happy either with the kids. An older childless/grandkid less couple would probably work better for everyone. I am so sorry you are having to deal with this. You must love her very much to be trying and do the right thing. Hugs!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

If I've got the time-line right, you've had this dog for about 2 years now, since your middle child was a toddler and since before the youngest was born? 

It sounds to me like you probably have not had the time to properly socialize this dog, either. Whatever the breeder did or didn't do for socialization should have been long since overtaken by your own efforts. With your growing family, it's understandable that you perhaps haven't had the ideal amount of time for dog training, but the fact remains, she needs more than what she's getting. Do you have the time and the willingness to work with this dog, be it in training classes or with a behaviorist?

She's been with you for a fairly long time now; I'm wondering if this biting behavior towards your children just recently started, or has she always been like this?

To me, it sounds like your *kids* also need training, pronto. Both your daughter and your older son are old enough to learn how to treat a dog. Their behavior was pretty much asking for trouble. A child "acting like a dog," growling and going around on all fours, is going to get treated like a dog - and she was. As Nevar said, the fact that the bite did not draw blood indicates that the dog has bite inhibition. She was giving a stern warning, not attacking.

Your son tripping over the dog could hurt her (and himself, of course). No wonder she came up growling and biting from that!

It all sounds like a very volatile situation, especially with your baby and your two-year-old niece around. Re-homing to an experienced dog owner is probably the most humane thing to do, unless you honestly have both a lot of time and serious dedication to do some intensive work with training both the dog and your kids.

I'm glad you posted on here. It sounds like you are trying to do the right thing for both the dog and for your family. I hope you can find an answer to the situation that is good for everyone concerned.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with NeVar - I think rehoming is going to be the best thing for all of you, but an evaluation by a qualified, experienced behaviourist (not a trainer, or someone whose "qualification" is self-endowed!) is likely to be the best way of finding the right home, and ensuring the new owners understand her needs. And you are right - forcible methods are very unlikely to help a dog with fear issues - they are far more likely to make her worse. In the meantime, I would be ensuring the older children know how to behave to minimise her fear, and the risk to themselves, and I would be keeping her strictly apart from the baby.

If you do decide to keep her, there are programs of behaviour modification that can help, but they are not quick fixes. It may be many months of careful, consistent work before you see any real improvement - not easy to manage with young children in the equation. You may find this site helpful: Fearful Dogs | Positive help for fearful, shy & anxious dogs


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

FJM, what a great site that is! Casey has his moments of being somewhat fearful still (he is also about 2 1/2 years old). Love that blog she has on her site, and the entry about "coddling" a dog, making the point that it's alright to treat your dog somewhat as you would a fearful toddler, by reassuring and by removing the dog from the situation (or the situation from the dog, as needs be).

Anyway, thanks for posting that. I'm going to bookmark it.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I don't agree with Beach Girl. I think a dog should NEVER under any circumstances bite a human being. Kids are kids. Even the most well behaved kids like to fool around sometimes and I want my dogs to be one hundred percent reliable around people. 

I guess I would look for a behaviourist, but they are not readily available everywhere - and then look for a home without children.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Purley said:


> I don't agree with Beach Girl. I think a dog should NEVER under any circumstances bite a human being. Kids are kids. Even the most well behaved kids like to fool around sometimes and I want my dogs to be one hundred percent reliable around people.
> 
> I guess I would look for a behaviourist, but they are not readily available everywhere - and then look for a home without children.


I don't think that BeachGirl was condoning the biting, just pointing out that a fearful dog when approached in what is percieved to be a threatening way could react by biting. 

Kids and dogs are a very weird mix. Kids don't move, sound or smell like adults. They have fast, jerky, unpredictable movements, and often suddenly make loud, strange sounds. They do thing that adults understand as "kid" behavior, but dogs just don't understand that. A kid running, yelling, or crawling around growling and acting like a dog can be extremely frightening and threatening to a dog, especially a dog who is already fearful.

My mini, who I socialized like crazy with kids and babies of all ages, acts VERY differently around kids aged 3 to 12 or so. He is fine around them (he doesn't bite or growl), but I can tell they make him nervous (unless they are very mature, very calm). His normal reaction with a boisterous child is to try to stand closer to me, and turn his head away from the child (kind of like, "If I can't see him, he can't see me"). However, he LOVES little babies from infancy to about 2. I think because they are very slow moving and just not threatening to him. He will run right up to a little toddler and lick them on the face... He loves adults, but again, teenagers tend to make him more nervous, especially a pack of squealing, teenage girls.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you all. I'm going to look over that website this evening, it looks like very helpful information.

We got her during wintertime so it's true that we did not do a lot of socializing with her, except for our families closeby. With the exception of my mom and sister, who she sees weekly, she will still growl and slink away from most other adults. Once spring arrived we would visit dog parks and go for walks around the neighborhood but she has never adjusted to kids - I never let kids pet her when they ask, which they do often b/c she looks like a teddy bear!

We live the Chicago suburbs, so hopefully there is a behaviorist in our area. I used to think that I could never give a dog away, until recently I started thinking about her feelings instead of just mine. To live in fear on a day to day basis must be miserable. Once we put the kids to bed at night she's as happy as can be, especially with my husband who plays with her more than I do. But the reality is that we do have kids and their safety comes first.

Does anyone have experience with behavior modification and a fearful dog?


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

I meant to add as well that we do teach our children to treat dogs with respect, but like someone said....they are children. They run through the house and are energetic, pretty loud kids. When they are running around, she will chase them and nip at them, sometimes to the point of hurting them so that they cry, but it's in play. I understand the difference b/w fear biting and that. I leash her when they are running around as much as I humanly can, but again they can't be in the yard together running b/c of the nipping. 

I know she needs training. Everyone is busy, I realize that, but between a toddler and my son's therapies and husbands 14 hour work day...I don't know that I can give it a 100% effort. Would 75% effort work? :confused2::act-up::noidea:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are being both sensible and loving in looking at life from the dog's point of view. I am no expert, but I think when it comes to fearfulness, 75% may just not be enough, if the other 25% involves vulnerable children. But a behaviourist may be able to tell you otherwise - perhaps there are comparatively small things you can change that would make a big change to your dogs environment and behaviour.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

*Purley, * I'm not at all condoning the biting. *PaddleAddict* explained my point better than I did - dogs and kids can be a funny combination, and a fearful dog is likely to react as this dog did when approached by a child on all fours making growling noises.

*Greenmom,* your dog nipping at your kids frequently is really serious cause for concern. She is learning that it's ok to nip them! You know there's a problem; really, it's not enough to just say "Well, kids will be kids." This dog is not reacting well to their running around and loud play, and she's letting them know that by nipping at them. Some dogs are fine with kids' typical behavior, some aren't, and clearly she's in the "not fine with it" group. 

You have to work with the dog you've got, the whole package of her fears and biting/nipping behavior, and that's going to require adjustments from everyone, including the kids, to keep them safe and to change the way they and the dog interact with each other.

It really has to be a family effort, with the kids learning to change their behaviour as you work to help your dog become less fearful. 

Is this a new thing with your dog, or has she been fearful and nippy like that for the whole time you've had her?

My Casey is on the fearful side (not as much so as your dog, though, and never, ever aggressive in any way toward people). What I did was carry a little sandwich bag of treats around with me, and have anyone who wanted to pet him give him a little treat. After a while he seemed to figure out that strangers might just have a treat handy for him. He is never going to be a "yay, let's meet new people!" sort of dog, but he is a lot better than he was.

Also he was afraid of the teeter in our agility classes. We worked a lot with a tilty board, bits of hot dog as treats for getting on it, and finally it all clicked, and now he's fine with running over the teeter. But that's a different sort of fear than what you're talking about.

Probably that website that* FJM * posted will have some good ideas. Someone posted above about doing a circle with the kids and having them give the dog treats; anything you can do that gives the dog the idea that kids are the source of good things is a step forward. Could you see yourself supervising that sort of activity?


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It must be agonising for you; there just isn't a great solution whatever you do. My sympathies ...

All dogs have a threshold beyond which they will bite, it is just that some have an extremely large threshold and some are quicker to be triggered. A behaviourist can help you extend your dog's threshold, but it sounds as if kids are a source of stress and anxiety for her, so it may not be possible to extend her ability to tolerate them enough to make her safe with the kids.

If the dog is unhappy, as you describe, she might be better off in an adult home. 

If she wasn't socialised as a pup, and has a long-established fear of kids, it will be a long road to build up her internal defenses so that she will be safe around the kids. On the plus side, though, as someone else said, she clearly has a fair level of bite control. 

Sorry, this isn't helpful, I'm sure! If it were me, I'd invest the time in training (with a good positive trainer) and some sessions with a behaviourist to put her on a programme to help her learn to cope. That's me, though, and I don't have kids. I know the safety of the kids is a key factor.

Do keep us posted; there are lots of resources and contacts here if you do decide to rehome.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hi I noted that you were going to be taking your spoo to parks etc. May I suggest this?

Take your children to a playground and sit a bit away with your spoo. Let her watch the kids play...listen to the noise and just sit calmly with her and hand her treats.
Do this a few times.

Next time sit closer..watch and just sit calmly and feed her treats. Sit closer a few times...let her observe the kids and noise in a safe neutral zone.

Continue getting closer and closer...feeding treats.
Eventually have your kids approach (but do not speak) and put treats by them...if she eats them...you praise her. Then let the kids feed her...you praise her.

The point is to get her calm around children being children and to associate it with something good...treats and praise.

When you are out walking her in the neighbourhood..always have treats with you. If someone wants to pet her...give them a treat. Have them hold it in a closed fist...let her smell it and then get them to open their hand and take it...you praise.

Fear is a hard thing to master especially if some of it is genetic. But I think if you work on it you may have success.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

truelovepoodles said:


> Hi I noted that you were going to be taking your spoo to parks etc. May I suggest this?
> 
> Take your children to a playground and sit a bit away with your spoo. Let her watch the kids play...listen to the noise and just sit calmly with her and hand her treats.
> Do this a few times.
> ...


This is a good idea, but DO NOT do this on your own. If your child fell or needed help, you CANNOT leave the dog on her own where there are kids at play and could potentially go over and get bitten by her. 

If you can enlist the help of someone to watch the kids while you work with your dog, the above exercise could really help.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

*Hello, back again for advice*

Hi all - 

Well it's been one year since I've been here and we are still dealing with the same issues. I am hoping you can give me some guidance as far as rehoming goes...we are really considering it. 

I sent an email to Great Lakes Poodle Rescue for information. Is that a good way to start?

I just think she would be so much better in a more calm environment where she could get all the attention and training she needs. I have two kids in therapy, plus a toddler...there is no time or energy (or money!) to properly train her. I was just online looking at bark collars - or shock collars...or something along the lines of doggie valium and I thought, really? is this what I want to do? Our dog does not deserve that.

Please tell me what to do!
Thank you!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I love my poodle more than life, but if she ever bit a child in the face, she would be re-homed yesterday! You can not let this continue!! I hope you find the right , loving home for your dog. I know it's hard, but she has to go. Put her picture up and maybe someone here will take her. I wish you the best. So sorry!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I stand by my origional post in this thread that you do need to rehome her. GLPR is a really great place to start! Good luck!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I do feel for you , I have been in that situation before & for 4 years tried to work my 1 male CC from biting our child. He had obedience trainnig, agility training, his CGC, was very friendly to strangers, children etc... When our baby came along it was like he revereted back to when I got him & he started to mark the babies room, tried to mark the baby, tried to be dominant with us over seating arrangements etc... our 1st bite happened at 10 months of age when our CC was on the couch watching our son crawl around with us sitting on the couches. We did not foresee a problem & when our son pulled himself up into a standing position by our CC that dog lashed out at his face & bit him 3x really fast. We were in shock at this reaction. We went back to training school etc... but over the years his stress over our child continued with bites to the face. We did rehome him after 4 years of trying to retrain him, but it just wasn't going to happen- we placed him in a single women's home with no children or dogs, just a cat & that Crested in in absolute joy now. He still loves to see children & enjoys our son when he sees him, just doesn't want to live with a child. I felt like an abosolute "Failure" & it really sucks to have to rehome what I consider a family memeber. Many times though it is the very best for the dog to be put in the proper home where they can thrive.
I am sure a home with no children & owners working to train will have a wonderful dog. I am sorry but glad you kept on trying to work out the issues.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You have tried and it is not working, for you or your dog. She is still young, and there is a home out there that is perfect for her - calm, no small children, lots of love, lots of fun. You have a responsibility to your children to keep them safe; your responsibility to your dog - and the most loving thing you can do for her - is to ensure she is placed into the best possible environment for her. I can imagine how torn and disappointed you must feel, but I really do think a new home is the best thing for all of you.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Aww, I'm sorry you are going through this. My Lhasa is also afraid of children he doesn't know well...he actually did bite a neighbor child last week. It was provoked though; she was growling and barking at him, and both her and her sister have teased\scared him before. Yes, we do our best to keep him locked away while those kids are over, but occasionally he will get out. My mom almost had him put down over it, but I convinced her that if we started crating him more and were just super super careful about not letting him be around children he doesn't know, he would be fine. He's an awesome family dog...he loves all of my siblings very much and even when they do things like pick him up, trip over him, sit on him, etc. he doesn't offer to do more then maybe huff a little. (he's a big talker...just because he grumbles doesn't mean he's growling.  ) Like others have said, kids will be kids. Even though we supervise like crazy and immediately correct bad manners with the dogs, little things still happen. All that to say, I sort of understand what you are going through, and I hope that you can find a solution that makes everyone happy.  Best wishes to you and your spoo!


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I think, until you are able to change the behavior of the dog, simply watch your children....keep them away from the situation. Perhaps, you may be right, this may not be the best environment for the dog.

If this dog were a stray, I don't believe anyone would approach it like that. This may be a great learning experience for your kids, and I am sure you can change their behavior while a behaviorist works with the dog. My children grew up with two huge dobermans. One was a rescue of unknown origin and I never, ever took my eyes off that dog. He turned out to be a big old sweetie, but I wouldn't let my daughter get her face too close to him for nearly two years! Our two boys both lived to about 13yrs of age. One was over 100lbs in his prime and "could" have done some serious damage. You will not always be around when your children encounter a dog....................they both need to learn to get along better. I don't even want to tell you the trouble my 5yr old would have been in if I ever caught her acting like a dog around either of our dobies---especially the rescue with no knowledge of his past. I, personally, think you can nip all of this in the bud, rather easily....and then get the dog some behavioral help.

At least, this is not an "out of nowhere" attack behavior. I think you can avoid the stimulus that created it rather easily.....lowered stress.

I feel very sad about this. And, I am sooo sorry, but one time was all that would ever be permitted to have happened in my home. Now that it has happened multiple times, a rather good pattern has been set up. Maybe rehoming with the warning that she has been through all of this is best.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I would start with the kids. If my 4 yr old son tried anything like you described in your first post, he'd get a spanking from here to Tuesday. (And we are not a spanking-discipline family.)

He has been raised with working dogs and in a vet clinic/grooming shop. He knows to NEVER mess around with dogs. He's not a magically well-behaved kid. He knows that dogs bite! (He has not been bitten).

Keeping a dog and children is simple. Closed doors, crates, baby gates.

Even if you rehome your dog, you can give your dog a mental break and keep your kids safe. Give her a space that is low-traffic, and divide it from your living space. Maybe a babygate at a bathroom, laundry room, or spare bedroom door. When your kids are outisde this space they can be kids, right? But if they go into the dog's space they must stay standing, no running, and keep hands to yourself.

You might find this is an easy adjustment and everyone settles in together again. But you might find it stressful and still pursue rehoming your dog.

There are so many dogs out there, it makes no sense to me that a dog-family misfit must be stuck together because of a NEW social stigma with buying, selling, adopting, rehoming dogs. I had an awesome dog that was a misfit for my family. She got a great home with a family that is a perfect fit. And I got a mpoo, that is really good for us.

If you do feel you need to rehome your dog, you shouldn't feel guilty over it. You are respecting your dog, looking out for her best interest and quality of life. You are protecting your kinds. There's no shame in that.

(((many hugs)))


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I raised a child with severe ad/hd, before they even had the diagnosis. No prescription treatments worked, and he was, at that time, diagnosed as "minimal brain dysfunction". You want to talk about some out of control behavior. And, yet, still...................I do not believe in "kids will be kids". I am the boss in my house, with my dogs and my kids, and they all know that and flourish by it. As, out of control as he was, I just never turned my back on him..................EVER. Doing that, would have found him sitting on top of the refrigerator or something. Do I consider that just a "kid being a kid". Nope, I held him to the same standard as any child, and nothing, nothing ever happened in my home while I was raising my children that I did not permit to happen. Yeah, it isn't fun for kids to not run around all winter, but we all did it. Just as we want our dog to know outside and inside behavior, kids should too.


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## Pudel-Fan (Nov 1, 2011)

I'm sorry you and your family are having to go through this. But you need to keep your children safe. You are carrying a heavy load with your families needs and you have no energy, time or money left to fix this problem. The kindest thing you can do for you, your family and this poodle is to rehome her as soon as possible. 

The poodle rescue sounds like a great place to help you. Be very honest with them about what has happened and why they need to be extra careful with her placement. Let them take her, place her with an experienced foster home who can evaluate her needs and place her in a safe home where neither she nor any humans are in danger of being hurt. The longer she stays in your home the greater the chances are something will happen that can't be repaired.

Don't feel guilty, you are a caring owner who is trying to do the best for everyone in your household. Maybe when your kids are older, and you are not under so much pressure you can try again with older rescue dog who is comfortable with kids.

Please let us know what you decide as we all care about you, your familty and your poodle.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

So sorry to read this post, but I agree ...you have to do what's best for your family and the Poodle  I truly believe in Poodle rescue as well, and somewhere there is the perfect home for her. And I agree with Pudel-Fan ... be honest.
Good Luck...


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm sorry you may have to rehome your dog. I hope if you do go the rehoming route, that you do not feel like a failure. You have a lot of experience and a wealth of knowledge for her to succeed in her next home. Think of the dogs in rescue situations that have every little information on them. Rescuers try very hard to place the dogs into good homes because they too also want to see a happy story. The more info you provide them, the better! They list dogs with descriptions such as "no kids, no cats, etc" for a reason. I wish you all the luck with your situation!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

I think you've done everything you could and more. I agree, that your poodle would do better in a home with no children. I adore my dogs and they are my fur babies, but if one of them bit my child on the face that dog would be gone. I would never choose between my kids and my dogs, there is no contest there. There is nothing wrong with rehoming a dog and going the rescue route is a great idea.

Good luck to you.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It sounds like you are feeling tremendous guilt over the decision to rehome ... don't.

You have to deal with the situation you have, not the situation you wish you had. If the dog had been better socialised, if the kids were older, if you had more time, if, if, if. 

Rehoming the dog is a kindness to her and to your family. I'd be completely honest with the rescue group, so they can find the dog an appropriate home. 

Dogs adjust. They do. She'll be fine.

I would caution against running straight out and getting another dog. Three small children is a pretty big demand on your time; by waiting a few years, you'll have more time, the kids will be older and better able to learn how to act appropriately around a dog and to start to learn about training, etc.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

greenmom17 said:


> Hi all -
> 
> Well it's been one year since I've been here and we are still dealing with the same issues. I am hoping you can give me some guidance as far as rehoming goes...we are really considering it.
> 
> ...


Quit thinking about rehoming her, and do it. This situation isn't fair to any involved

I would encourage you to contact Carolina Poodle Rescue as well. I know they have dealt with poodles with some challenging issues. 

Do contact poodle rescue --as she has bitten, find out whether or not they consider her adoptable, or if they are able to work with her, Regardless of the timidity and shyness, there is a lot to be said for a dog who lives in an environment that is so uncomfortable for her but is still showing bite inhibition. Yes, I know, she bites. She has also been showing significant control over those bites...or we would have read about her and the person (child) bitten in the paper. It sounds as if this girl has been trying to let people know for most of her life that she is in a situation that just isn't comfortable for her..and no one is hearing her very well. Please, for her sake, for your children's sake, she needs to have a new living situation ASAP. 

Have you let the breeder know what is happening?
Do you have a contract with the breeder that stipulates what needs to be done if you can't keep her?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

fjm said:


> I agree with NeVar - I think rehoming is going to be the best thing for all of you, but an evaluation by a qualified, experienced behaviourist (not a trainer, or someone whose "qualification" is self-endowed!) is likely to be the best way of finding the right home, and ensuring the new owners understand her needs. And you are right - forcible methods are very unlikely to help a dog with fear issues - they are far more likely to make her worse. In the meantime, I would be ensuring the older children know how to behave to minimise her fear, and the risk to themselves, and I would be keeping her strictly apart from the baby.
> 
> If you do decide to keep her, there are programs of behaviour modification that can help, but they are not quick fixes. It may be many months of careful, consistent work before you see any real improvement - not easy to manage with young children in the equation. You may find this site helpful: Fearful Dogs | Positive help for fearful, shy & anxious dogs


fjm -- as usual you have some of the best insights and suggested resources. I looked through this and although Sunny is not a biter, etc., he is fearful (maybe different reason?) and there is good information. Thanks.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Wow ... I didn't realize this has been going on for over a year! Poor dog!!!!! I agree with Yaddaluvpoodles! Please rehome her. Before it's too late!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Quit thinking about rehoming her, and do it. This situation isn't fair to any involved
> 
> I would encourage you to contact Carolina Poodle Rescue as well. I know they have dealt with poodles with some challenging issues.
> 
> ...


*

THANK YOU FOR WEIGHING IN ON THIS AS YOU HAVE!* I hope your wisdom is heeded, and_ fast!_ Amen!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Absolutely I agree with all the above posters to Please contact the rescue group and rehome her; or, preferably, contact the breeder, who you should have been contacting all along and would undoubtedly weigh in here. Makes no sense to put your children (or someone else's) in harms way knowing full well the situation, and no sense to jeopardize this poodle's future, when a different environment and some training will assist in a long and happy life with another family. And, with your kids, maybe makes sense to hold off on a poodle for a bit???


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

*thank you*

I am so grateful to have found this forum - thank you so much for your thoughts and advice! Poodle people are just as wonderful as poodles themselves 

I received an email response from Great Lakes Rescue Response and forwarded it to my husband today at work. He is the closest to Rosie and is really sad at the thought of letting her go. To him it seems like we are letting her down without a fight. It's heartwrenching. He said let's try one more trainer, give her one more chance...but it's not even the biting that is the issue. I *know* it should be. It's that she is not comfortable in this environment. She's nervous, she follows me everywhere day and night. She loves the kids and they love her but the fact is that we live in a suburban neighborhood and there are tons of loud, active kids running around.

I believe her ideal home would be one with older, retired folks who live in the calm countryside, have time to take her to agility classes (you should see her leap off our patio!) and allow her to live to her full potential.

My greatest fear is that she will think we just didn't love her and gave her away. How do you get over that? My god I'm sitting her crying and we haven't even made any decisions yet!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

> My greatest fear is that she will think we just didn't love her and gave her away. How do you get over that?


Dogs don't think like that. She will be relieved and happy in a calm environment. You love her enough to put her needs first. THAT is love. She is lucky to have you, even if only briefly.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Forgot to add that we have not contacted the breeder about the situation. I don't want to give her back, I want her to be given to a home that adores her and wants her!

This sounds shady but we met the breeder at a dog show at a convention center near Chicago. He had 2 puppies left and said he was going out of the country in a few days and we could have one for 50% off or something...maybe we paid $800? I don't remember, once we saw the puppies we were sold. Not ideal, I realize that now, but we had been to 2 other breeders and walked away. Something about her was different and we had to have her!

We agreed that if she is rehomed, we will not get another dog for a long time. It's really sad. Our first standard was an apricot from Canada and was so incredibly, unbelievably wonderful. Like she was made for us! We made the mistake of trying to fill the void quickly after she died by buying a new puppy. Now we now better. SO sad!


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## WestCoastSpoo (May 11, 2011)

I think the best way to show her you love her is to let her go so she has the opportunity to be in the best home for HER. I'm not saying your home isn't lovely and caring and perfect for some other dog....BUT it is not the right fit for THIS dog. I feel that it's very selfish to keep her in a place she isn't happy just because you will "feel guilty" giving her away. And she will in no way feel like you have "given up on her", she'll only feel the relief and happiness of being in a home that is a good fit for her. That doesn't mean she doesn't love your family, only that the situation causes her a lot of anxiety. I wish you all the best in finding the best home for your little girl!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She will be a little bit sad and confused for a day or two, and will then flourish in the home you know she needs. You will be very sad for a lot longer, but will know you did the right thing for her. And if you should meet up with her in the future, she will be delighted to meet you all, with no regrets or recriminations, and will then happily trot home with her new family. You have tried "one more thing" for 12 months - there are no magic bullet solutions for a situation like this. And sooner or later in a busy house management fails, and someone - child, adult or dog - gets badly hurt.

I once had a little cat who was not really happy with the life I could give her. I regret now that I could not see past my own needs and sense of responsibility - I should have found her a place where she could be happy all the time, and not just for the few hours a day I was home with her. As Tortoise says, loving your dog enough to put her needs first is the greatest gift you can give her.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I was not blessed with the gift of tact and gentleness. What makes it worse is.. I hate it when I feel people are being mean or harsh with me. Please know that I what I have posted is not out of meanness or harshness.

When I read your postings, they are full of misery and anxiousness regarding your girl-- cries for help. Believe me, life is much too short for all involved to live life like that. Not every dog is a match for every home, nor is every home a match for every dog. Your family deserves a dog who is a good fit.. and your dog deserves a family which is a good fit for her.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly with Yaddaluvpoodles, except for one point. I just don't think "every family" is a good fit for a dog, but I DO think ever family CAN BE. There are lots of types of pets, and lots of types of dogs, etc.

You are very busy right now. Forgive me, I have pneumonia, and a high fever that is making me rather inarticulate at the moment, and I thought I already posted about this, but in a situation where kids are gonna just be kids, then dogs are gonna be dogs; and there is potential for a problem. I think you are doing the best thing for everyone and the least stressful solution for all. I cannot imagine the work it would entail to conquer something that has been going on for such a long time. Let them all be whatever they want to be.............separately.

I am glad that you are addressing this for all concerned. Yes, I am surprised so long has passed if there is a danger, but we are all different. Maybe you took steps I do not know about to handle this over the past year? And, yes, we all love poodles.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Ladywolfe, hope you are feeling better soon....

Thank you for helping me to see the big picture more clearly. This is the right thing to do for her, not just for us. I want her to live her time on earth to her full potential. 

Honestly, she is the most beautiful poodle I've seen, people say that all the time. Perfectly proportioned, beautiful coat, super athletic. She could really do so much in the right hands! Just not little 9, 6 & 2 year old hands...

I've contacted the local rescue club. Are there other options I should consider as far as rehoming? Contact Carolina rescue as well? I'm afraid with her bite history it may be hard to rehome her. Ideas? 

Everyone her is so wonderful...is anyone in the market for another standard, lol? 

Thank you.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

greenmom17 said:


> My greatest fear is that she will think we just didn't love her and gave her away. How do you get over that? My god I'm sitting her crying and we haven't even made any decisions yet!


As others have said... Dog's don't think that way. I do foster care for dogs (and/or cats) looking for new homes. I have a little 9 year old cocker spaniel right now, who I've had for just over a month. She is SOOOO attached to me already, but I'll have no problem giving her over to a new owner when we find one... The reason?? It took her less than a month to fall in love with me, it won't be any different when she goes to her new home!! I'll be expecting a message from whoever her new owner turns out to be, telling me that she's completely bonded to them within a few days. 

I wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide - and if it means your spoo will be going to a new home - just remember that she will be so happy with her new, calm environment - and she will hold nothing against you! All of my foster pups who I encounter in the community are very happy to see me, but have no problem leaving with their "real" moms & dads!

Barb


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## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

greenmom17 said:


> .... My greatest fear is that she will think we just didn't love her and gave her away. How do you get over that? My god I'm sitting her crying and we haven't even made any decisions yet!


Greenmom, that is NOT true. Let me tell you how I got my Bella (1+ YO Shih Tzu Female). 

Her former owner's old dog (GS mix) died a couple of years ago @ 14. She has an adult autistic daughter that lives at home and loved the GS mix. Former owner *thought* autistic daughter would be fine with a smaller, fluffy puppy so she got Bella @ 8 weeks. 

Daughter was TERRIFIED of Bella. It never got better to the point the daughter stopped coming out of her room even to EAT if Bella was out in the house. Former owner tried for a solid YEAR to make it work, but in the end realized her daughter was never going to adjust and like Bella. 

So she made the HARD decision to rehome Bella, and I ended up with her. For the first time in a year, the daughter started coming back out of her room to eat and watch TV. Bella adjusted very quickly to my home/life/family (like perhaps a week?). It helped that I let her sleep on the bed and her former owner didn't -- LOL!

I got Bella last November. If you came to my house today and I didn't tell you -- you wouldn't know which one of my Shih Tzu's she was! And I send picture updates occassionally to Bella's former mom and SHE'S happy!


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

I would never want to find out the hard way that somehow a dog I owned caused serious injury to a child. Things happen - a door gets left open; a gate left unlocked; a child's playmate goes into the wrong room.

Be kind to yourself... you care and we can see you want what is the best for everyone. The "good-bye" will be hard .. but knowing she will be happier will hopefully help. She will adapt ... trust me 

There will be a good time for you to get a dog sometime in the future - one that willl be the kind of dog you need and want for you and your family.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You need to rehome the dog. I wouldn't have put up with her biting once, let alone a few times. Standards are generally awesome with kids, so yours is not the norm at all. I would look for a poodle rescue near you. 

Is this one near you?
Great Lakes Poodle Club rescue information


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> Standards are generally awesome with kids, so yours is not the norm at all. I would look for a poodle rescue near you.


I don't think this is a fair statement. ANY dog of ANY breed can be pushed to its limits when kids are allowed to scare/pester the dog. 

It sounds to me that this particular household is just not the right place for a dog *right now* (with so many young kids and no time or money for training a dog). 

I know it must be breaking the OP's heart to give up this dog but it truly is the ultimate gift to the dog. This poor dog probably spends the majority of her days feeling scared and uncomfortable and that is no way to live.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

After a long talk last night with my husband about the whole situation, we are starting the process today with Great Lakes Rescue. 

We've decided not to tell the kids until the last moment so they are not upset during this whole process. Our first dog who died suddenly 3 years ago is still included in our nightly dinner prayers. They were so heartbroken when she died. They love Rosie as well, although they are not as close to her because she won't let them be like our first dog did. 

*Would you please keep me in mind if you hear of anyone who is looking to adopt?

Is there an area on this forum where I can put my information out publicly...email and info about our dog, along with pictures?*

Thank you again, your support is wonderful


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## .wesss (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm no poodle, or dog expert by any means, but 14 weeks which is about 3.5 months old really isn't that old for socializing (in my opinion). Were the kids always around him when he was a puppy still? Did they play with him out in the yard? If this was present when he was still a puppy it could have been corrected. Just by reading this thread and the split between keeping him and letting him go, I'm sure made the decision harder. Best of luck to you


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

greenmom17: First of all, what you are doing is a really good thing for the poodle, your family and your peace of mind. For what it is worth, the Great Lakes Poodle Rescue is a wonderful organization, the director is very very caring as I was on the rescue list before I adopted Sunny and am still on the list for a mini (although down the list a bit now) should a female come available. I can guarantee you that they will do everything to be sure it is a perfect fit! Most of the time they already have a list of people waiting for a spoo, or mpoo, etc., so good decision on your part and know that it's a wonderful organization looking out for the welfare of the poodle.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

greenmom17 said:


> Is there an area on this forum where I can put my information out publicly...email and info about our dog, along with pictures?[/B]
> 
> Thank you again, your support is wonderful


Not really, greenmom... When you put real, live email addresses on a forum like this, you invite spammers. I would just recommend that if anyone is interested in more information, pictures, etc., that they contact you through the private message feature here on the PF, and you can give them your email address, contact information through that method.

It might help to share in what city/state you're located so if there are any members nearby they can help spread the word, too!

Good luck! 

Barb


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so glad you have come to a decision - I'm too far away to be much help with recommendations, but hope you quickly find her a really good home. And I'm sure the children will be comforted by including her in their bedtime prayers - perhaps with a Thankyou for finding her a place where she is very happy. I know many Rescues do not encourage contact when a dog has been rehomed, but I think that when children may be anxious and grieving a few letters and cards from the dog showing what a lovely time she is having could be a very good thing.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

I spoke to the woman at GLPR this afternoon and we have begun the process of rehoming.

She has all my information and I just sent her some photos I took this afternoon. I put a couple in my album here on the website if anyone cares to see the famous (or infamous!) Rosie.

Thank you again for your support and thoughts, I will keep you updated. 

Meghan


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Greenmom17, it sounds like you are thought this through and are doing what you feel is best for Rosie and your family. I checked out your photos - what a pretty girl. It could not have been easy for you to seek advice on a poodle forum; I am sure you were worried about what response you would receive. I appreciate your offer to keep us updated.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I checked out her photos too . Wow, what a beauty ! I think she will be able to get a great home. So sorry that it did not work out this time, but when your kids get older, maybe you can try another Standard, most of them love kids.


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## babysdaddy (Feb 6, 2011)

Greenmom,

Too bad she's a standard or my wife and I would bring her home. We're in the process of rescuing another mini-poo this weekend. Sorry to hear that you're going through all this with your Rosie.

My post isn't about me telling you about my poodle preference, but to give you and your family comfort in knowing that they are people out there who look to rehome/rescue dogs to give them great homes (one of my first posts is about how crazy my rescued mini "was"). I'm never going to "buy" a dog/puppy because there's so many great dogs out there who need a second/third/fourth/etc... chance. My mini was given up twice and "on sale, super deep doggie discount" by the rescue group to get rid of him. I live my life by "turning things around and making them special again" and you will find someone who will do the same for your Rosie. Be positive with her and towards your search for her new home. You're not giving up on her, but trying to find someone who has something different to give Rosie.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I wanted to Thanks Baby'sdaddy for that comment , and it is so true! Not to toot my own horn, but I don't think you can offer a better home than we have for a dog... lots of land to run free, home most of the time, take our dogs on vacation or don't go, the best food ect. and most of all , we LOVE our dogs! I did get scared I was not going to find a Standard and did buy Carley, but she is the first dog I have brought in over 13 years. I too look to take in a rescue. I just could not find one at the time that I felt was right. I did have a small child to consider, elderly , small dogs and a husband that was not crazy about the ideal of a new dog. I had to get the perfect dog and I did. But if I had waited, I am certain the perfect dog would have shown up in a rescue .


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

babysdaddy said:


> Greenmom,
> 
> Too bad she's a standard or my wife and I would bring her home. We're in the process of rescuing another mini-poo this weekend. Sorry to hear that you're going through all this with your Rosie.
> 
> My post isn't about me telling you about my poodle preference, but to give you and your family comfort in knowing that they are people out there who look to rehome/rescue dogs to give them great homes (one of my first posts is about how crazy my rescued mini "was"). I'm never going to "buy" a dog/puppy because there's so many great dogs out there who need a second/third/fourth/etc... chance. My mini was given up twice and "on sale, super deep doggie discount" by the rescue group to get rid of him. I live my life by "turning things around and making them special again" and you will find someone who will do the same for your Rosie. Be positive with her and towards your search for her new home. You're not giving up on her, but trying to find someone who has something different to give Rosie.


I think more of what you do, and the regard you have for rescue dogs, than all the Grand Champions of the world put together. Some people think rescues are "inferior," troubled throwaways; others think they're a cheaper alternative, though their care can mount up _way_ beyond what you'd pay a breeder. You are what I call a _true_ dog lover. It was most kind of you to offer the encouragement and reassurance to the OP that you have, and kinder still to open your heart, your home and many people's eyes to the hidden treasures of rescue dogs.:thumb:


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you to everyone who is contributing to this thread - your support and stories are so helpful in reminding me that we are doing the right thing. I can only hope and pray that Rosie will find new owners like any one of you! They have truly won the dog lottery! There is a book called Dog Heaven that we bought for our kids when our apricot spoo died 3 years ago. It's the most wonderful comforting book and we've probably read it 1000x. I can't help but feel that the life you offer your dogs is like dog heaven here on earth. Room to run, a calm and happy life, a warm bed & good food 

I'm worried about my 9 year old daughter, and what she will feel when we tell her that Rosie is leaving. I'm thinking I will let her read this thread because it is so comforting and shows that we are really trying to do the best thing for Rosie. She will be so upset though, I can hardly think about it.

One last thing that keeps nagging me...will our rehoming Rosie affect our ability to get another Poodle someday, either from rescue or a breeder? We have no plans in the near future to get another dog, but I know that we are "dog people" and will want one someday. 

Thank you again to everyone. I've heard from the director at Great Lakes a few days ago that they had contacted two families and were waiting back to hear from them.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

greenmom17 said:


> One last thing that keeps nagging me...will our rehoming Rosie affect our ability to get another Poodle someday, either from rescue or a breeder? We have no plans in the near future to get another dog, but I know that we are "dog people" and will want one someday.


I think as long as you wait until your youngest (and final) child is at least 5 or 6 years old and ALL of the children are mature enough to listen well and be able to follow your instructions about interacting with the dog then it should be fine. 

I think if you tried to get another dog in a year or two most people would not want to give you a puppy or dog seeing as your situation is still the same as it was with Rosie.

I want to stress that although many dogs are good with kids and many standards are good with kids, it sounds like your particular household at this stage in your lives is not a good environment for ANY dog. I don't think it is that Rosie is not the right dog for your famiy. i would hate for you to think that another standard would better than Rosie because that is probably not the case. 

Later, when the kids are older, it will be a different situation and hopefully any breeder or rescue will take into account the fact that you waited until the kids were old enough for a dog.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Oh, I also wanted to add something about your 9-year-old daughter, who seems is going to be getting the worst end of the stick in this deal. I am sure she is old enough and mature enough to interact properly with dogs, so it really is sad that she will have to say goodbye to her friend. It's even sadder that she won't be able to have another dog in her home until she's a teenager.

Could she get involved with dogs in another way? Do you have a local shelter or rescue she could volunteer with? At her age, you would have to go with her, but it could be a great experience. When she's a little older, she could even start her own dog-walking business in the neighborhood.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

Thank you for the reply. We were out of town over the weekend so I apologize for the delay in responding.

I don't know what to say really, it's a sad situation for everyone. I bend over backwards for my children and to think that I am causing her to get the short end of the stick makes me sick.

I haven't heard anything from the rescue group and in the meantime I think I'm going to research trainers in the Chicagoland area, one more time.


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

I forgot to add that my daughter volunteering at a rescue shelter is a great idea, we have one not more than a few miles away.

She has severe allergies though so unfortunately that's probably not best for her health.



PaddleAddict said:


> Oh, I also wanted to add something about your 9-year-old daughter, who seems is going to be getting the worst end of the stick in this deal. I am sure she is old enough and mature enough to interact properly with dogs, so it really is sad that she will have to say goodbye to her friend. It's even sadder that she won't be able to have another dog in her home until she's a teenager.
> 
> Could she get involved with dogs in another way? Do you have a local shelter or rescue she could volunteer with? At her age, you would have to go with her, but it could be a great experience. When she's a little older, she could even start her own dog-walking business in the neighborhood.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

You know it's not as easy as getting a trainer. You have to be able to manage the younger kids 100% of the time, which you have already said you can't really do.

Also, finding a way to keep the dog in the household does not address the stress and unhappiness of your dog, which is not happy and relaxed in your home.

I think keeping the dog would mean its only a matter of time before there is a serious accident.

I'm sorry, because I know you don't want to give up the dog and you don't want to disappoint your kids. If you could explain to your daughter that it's for the good of the dog, that could help. Kids can be incredibly empathetic, particularly toward animals.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Kids ALWAYS come first. I would re-home her to someone without kids or grandkids Asap. Too much of a risk, don't wait until something serious happens!


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

you have gotten some very good advice on here. I agree that kids come first. Make sure you also check liability laws on your area. In some places if you rehome a dog, and do not disclose the bite history, you can be held liable if the dog bites again, even if you no longer own the dog. 

I truly feel for your kids. I know they (and you) love your poodle, and that it hurts to give up your dog (hugs)


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## greenmom17 (Mar 22, 2011)

This afternoon a very nice lady came by to meet Rosie. She was referred by GLPR. She does not have small kids, has had two standards before, fenced yard, perfect, right?

Rosie met her at the door growling and continued to growl for the next 20 minutes as we sat on the couches talking. She was able to pet her briefly after feeding her a little bit of dog food. 

We went outside and threw the ball around, and the real Rosie - fun, active, energetic showed up but she was still very timid around the woman.

Great first impression, I'm sure we won't be hearing back from her. I'm starting to think we should just get a trainer and deal with the whole situation.

Is there a way to correct fear growling? Seems like a very hard thing to stop a dog from doing, but I don't know for sure.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I thought rescues took dogs in and rehabilitated them and then placed them? This is beyond confusing to me.


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