# True Cost of a Puppy



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For a reputable and experienced breeder I think one of the main costs is that of showing and all that it entails. 

Either the dog is sent out with a handler that charges for boarding and grooming the dog plus a handling fee while showing the dog, or the dog stays with the owner /breeder who gives the dog over to a handler at shows, or the breeder/owner is a breeder/owner/handler who shows the dog themselves. In addition to fees to handlers if a breeder uses them the breeder/owner is responsible for the show entry fees. Those fees can be up to $50 a dog and if you go to all days of a big cluster that means close to $200 for that one weekend for one dog just for the entries.

Many people who show have large RVs that they take to shows. They have to fuel and maintain their vehicles and pay fees at the show sites to camp.

For me with just Lily my last show (which I left early because she got sick) added up about like this: entries for 3 days, only one of which I showed at=245; hotel (2 nights not 3 since we left early, but a bargain chain that I didn't care for)=200; meals for me=40; gas=100; tolls=35; emergency vet visit=260 for a grand total of $880. I groomed her myself before I went, so on that part I get off cheap.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

In addition to what Catherine has noted, there are other costs that come in for each litter, both direct and indirect. This is only what I know from listening to breeders and watching...

First, the dam usually travels to the sire. So there are the costs associated with that trip, possibly nights in hotels, etc. Often there is artificial insemination, and clearly that involves costs. There are also either payments to the sire, or a puppy from the litter, or both. I have no idea what these costs are but am sure they are pretty substantial.

Then there are vet check ups during the pregnancy.

Then there are vet visits for the puppies-- first check up, dew claw removal, tail docking. Microchip purchase and insertion. Registration. Immunisations. I imagine this adds up to a few hundred dollars each.

Food: the mother is eating more during pregnancy and two or three times her usual amount during lactation (or more!). Food for the puppies.

I am sure I have left out some direct expenses.

Then of course there are the indirect expenses. Any good breeder is on 24/7 as delivery approaches and certainly after. In a large litter the puppies will come over the course of a very long day (or night). Then for a large litter the mother probably does not have as many nipples as pups. The breeder needs to monitor the weights daily or more to make sure that each one is getting a fair share, and growing. It does not seem to me that this is less than an all-day, all-night job for several weeks!

So when you add in all the expenses of showing, with all of the above, it seems to me that breeding is more a labour of love than a way to get rich quick...


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree with Lily CD that the main costs are showing the dog. We went to several shows with Sam. He got 2 points towards an AKC championship, but then we pulled him out because his handler hurt her back and I didn't want to send him off to stay with a professional handler. He was being handled by the breeder that I worked with when I bred Cammie. I was frankly amazed at how much work and effort went into showing him -- grooming that requires a very high level of skill, as well as training him and traveling to shows, entrance fees, etc.

The health testing is really not all that expensive. The other expense that I encountered in breeding Cammie was a very unexpected need for a C-section. That can put a huge dent into your net income! Also, I did some progesterone testing to pinpoint Cammie's fertile days which was not cheap, and we did an ultrasound to confirm pregnancy. 

A major cost that is harder to quantify is the fact that properly raising a litter of puppies is extremely time-consuming. There are lots of ways that a breeder who is churning out puppies for the puppy market can cut corners. But if you really do it right, it takes time. It makes a huge difference if the momma is loved and supported. The momma passes that happy confidence on to her puppies. Unfortunately, puppies that come from breeders that have too many dogs or that breed their dogs too often do not get that advantage. The human-puppy interaction is also very important, and it takes time to feed the pups, clean up after them, handle them and socialize them. I took my pups out every 3 or 4 hours including in the middle of the night and as a result they were almost house trained by the time they went to their new homes at 9 weeks. They also had lots of positive experiences and met lots of different people of different ages. All of this takes a lot of time and effort. I remember after the pups went to their new homes, one of my friends welcomed me back to the world of going out and doing things and spending time with friends. I don't think I even realized how unavailable I was to my friends.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

marialydia said:


> (...)
> First, the dam usually travels to the sire. So there are the costs associated with that trip, possibly nights in hotels, etc. Often there is artificial insemination, and clearly that involves costs. There are also either payments to the sire, or a puppy from the litter, or both. I have no idea what these costs are but am sure they are pretty substantial. (...)


AI involves estrus tests, insemination fees -- trip to a stud can require additional health test to determine the bitch is healthy, and of course fees to the dog-sitter for the dogs you leave home (which can include an entire litter of care-intensive puppies!), or loss of income if it's your partner taking a day off or something like that.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

All true, but I have never felt that it was "fair" that with the same costs, Standard Breeders charge more for their puppies than Toy Breeders when a Spoo will have 8-13 puppies in a litter and a Toy may have 1-3. Even though as a Toy owner, I benefit from the lower cost, it just does not make sense to me.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

My breeder said it costs 3000$ on average to get a championship on a dog. That's quite a lot of money. 

I think those who are making the most money are the backyard breeders who don't show, don't test, and maybe don't even give vaccines, or partly. I've seen those people sell atrocious puppies on kijiji for 2000$, which is more than what a reputable breeder will sell a pet puppy for.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> My breeder said it costs 3000$ on average to get a championship on a dog. That's quite a lot of money.
> 
> I think those who are making the most money are the backyard breeders who don't show, don't test, and maybe don't even give vaccines, or partly. I've seen those people sell atrocious puppies on kijiji for 2000$, which is more than what a reputable breeder will sell a pet puppy for.



I have those same breeders selling puppies for $2,000 Facebook, and sadly some dope who has "heard" that is how much a quality puppy will cost will come along and pay them that much for those fugly, sickly little creatures, so the sad circle continues.
I hate to say it, but maybe quality breeders should raise their prices!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> All true, but I have never felt that it was "fair" that with the same costs, Standard Breeders charge more for their puppies than Toy Breeders when a Spoo will have 8-13 puppies in a litter and a Toy may have 1-3. Even though as a Toy owner, I benefit from the lower cost, it just does not make sense to me.


The litter size works the other way too: more puppies to choose keepers from, so harder competition to win against to finish a championship. Or?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

peccan said:


> The litter size works the other way too: more puppies to choose keepers from, so harder competition to win against to finish a championship. Or?



Huh? I think that also works against a Toy Breeder - they would have to have five litters to have the same number of puppies from which to choose a keeper as one Spoo litter. Forgetting about Sire's, that is 4 more dogs to finish, groom, house, give shots, pay vet bills (4 more possible C-sections, with C-sections being more common in toys).


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think all sizes of poodle puppy should cost the same. Spoos have larger litters, but they cost much more to feed, groom, they have more health issues, require more land, puppies need bigger crates and toys, have bigger accidents, require more time, etc. I have heard Spoos have more competition in the show ring, but don't know if this is true.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Bigger accidents?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Bigger accidents = bigger pee puddles and poop to clean up!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

So you are saying a Spoo has a litter of 10 @ $2000 each. So $20,000 for a litter and possibly 3 litters in a lifetime. So $60,000.00 as opposed to a toy has 3 in a litter @ $2000 each. So $6,000 for a litter times 3 litters equals $18,000.00 is equaled out because of the costs to own and bigger accidents make up that much of a difference?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And three in a toy litter is pushing it, 2 is more like the average.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Here you will pay 2500 and 3800 to 5000 for a small toy from a top breeder, as sometimes they only have 2 or 3 at the most. I got lucky as the vet had purchased Cayenne to breed and she was to small, so I got a good price on her, with the agreement she be spayed. I do feel small ones due to the number should be a higher dollar


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I don't know enough about the cost variation between toy, mini, and standards to have an opinion on the price differences.

I will admit that I did not think about the cost of showing at all when trying to do the math. Judging from the costs some of you have quoted (thank you!!), that does make the numbers add up to something much more reasonable. 

Personally, I would love it if the numbers were made clear on a breeder's website (or given to potential buyers). I read so many times that the reason for high prices was genetic testing and simply couldn't wrap my head around that after some independent research this morning. 

I found this website 
What does it cost to breed a Litter of Puppies?
(granted, it's for malamutes, but still a large breed) that breaks down the price. I feel there are a few unnecessary costs added in for the average breeding, but there's always those few that'll need extra $$$ that i'm sure averages it out. 

thank you to everyone that chimed in


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> So you are saying a Spoo has a litter of 10 @ $2000 each. So $20,000 for a litter and possibly 3 litters in a lifetime. So $60,000.00 as opposed to a toy has 3 in a litter @ $2000 each. So $6,000 for a litter times 3 litters equals $18,000.00 is equaled out because of the costs to own and bigger accidents make up that much of a difference?


That's just my opinion. Small dogs are MUCH easier to care for in every way, IMHO. I've had a lot of dogs in my lifetime, in all sizes, plus many fosters. I cannot imagine raising a litter of Spoo puppies. The time (cleaning and grooming), space required (bigger house and yard needed), extra costs of everything (food, crates, toys), the time to socialize more puppies justifies the price tag.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

I'm all for those who want to spend thousands of dollars for show quality dogs, but there are many of us who don't care about showing, and only want a pet quality Poodle that has come from a good breeder. I don't know about Spoos, but for around here, Toys are going for $800 to $900 for Males, and $900 to $1500 for Females. I would go with a breeder who does genetic health testing and gives a health guarantee, and I would spent $1100 ( okay, "MAYBE" $1200) for a regular size Toy, but no more than that.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Kathy Ann said:


> I'm all for those who want to spend thousands of dollars for show quality dogs, but there are many of us who don't care about showing, and only want a pet quality Poodle that has come from a good breeder. I don't know about Spoos, but for around here, Toys are going for $800 to $900 for Males, and $900 to $1500 for Females. I would go with a breeder who does genetic health testing and gives a health guarantee, and I would spent $1100 ( okay, "MAYBE" $1200) for a regular size Toy, but no more than that.


Here is the thing. If you want a good healthy well bred dog, you still are asking to get that from a reputable breeder. A reputable breeder will show their dog, whether it's in conformation or performance. They are doing this to help with their credentials. A breeder who is involved in showing their dog, is proving their dogs and more likely to follow through with all necessary testing. Breeders who show their dogs, usually only get 1-2 show prospects out of their litters, while the rest of the litter are going to be pet quality. They still put in the same amount of money to produce a mostly pet quality litter as they did to get a possible show prospect. Don't forget, that it can cost up to 5,000 just to breed to a sire who also has passed all the necessary clearances and there is never a guarantee puppies will even be produced in that breeding. Then their is the vet care put into the bitch during her pregnancy and then sometimes things go wrong and c-sections need to be done. Then all the expense in raising the pups before they go to their new home. Even standard poodles can sometimes end up with 1-3 pups in their litter. 

Your more than welcome to find a breeder who charges less, but just remember, you get what you pay for. 

Another thing, a good reputable breeder spends countless hours researching sires until they find one that will compliment their bitch. You don't just put 2 dogs together, there is a lot more to breeding a good sound litter. 

In the end, the breeder should at least break even, but they more than likely will be upside down in expenses. But that's the beauty about a reputable breeder. Producing a healthy contribution to the breed is way more important then the money that goes toward in succeeding that.

And one more thing. Since I've started showing, these last 2 years I've put 2,400 in entry fees alone. Entry fees are the cheapest expense when it comes to showing. You have to also factor in all the hotel stays, gas, food money, reserving our grooming spaces that, alone, can vary between 40-80 a weekend. I personally groom my own and handle my own so I save myself thousand because of that. Not to mention, it takes me about 8 hours (4 hours the day before the show and about 4hours at the show) to get her ready for the ring. With one dog. And then, what about the expenses for our equipment and supplies. Shampoo, and multiple hair products has to be replaced. Sometimes I go through a whole bottle of hairspray in a single weekend. I know there are other expenses that most of us still haven't thought of.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Kathy Ann said:


> I'm all for those who want to spend thousands of dollars for show quality dogs, but there are many of us who don't care about showing, and only want a pet quality Poodle that has come from a good breeder. I don't know about Spoos, but for around here, Toys are going for $800 to $900 for Males, and $900 to $1500 for Females. I would go with a breeder who does genetic health testing and gives a health guarantee, and I would spent $1100 ( okay, "MAYBE" $1200) for a regular size Toy, but no more than that.



So I'm wondering. When you say "regular sized Toy", do you mean that you would pay more or less for tiny or oversized??


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> So I'm wondering. When you say "regular sized Toy", do you mean that you would pay more or less for tiny or oversized??



Sorry, I should have explained that better. 

All of my Poodles I've ever had, have been regular size Toys. I would never be interested in the tiny ones. If an oversized Toy was offered to me ( or even if it was a Mini), I would take it if I fell in love with it. Absolutely!! But otherwise, I'm always interested in just the regular size Toy Poodle.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

All valid points, but here is a thing. What you pay for the puppy outright is NOTHING compared to what it costs to have that dog its entire life. When I rescue, I take my chances and let the chips fall where they may. But when I am buying from a breeder, I want the health testing, the showing and the titles maybe both in front and behind the dog's name. I want the odds stacked in my favor and will gladly pay $2,000 + for the right dog.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodle Lover said:


> All valid points, but here is a thing. What you pay for the puppy outright is NOTHING compared to what it costs to have that dog its entire life. When I rescue, I take my chances and let the chips fall where they may. But when I am buying from a breeder, I want the health testing, the showing and the titles maybe both in front and behind the dog's name. I want the odds stacked in my favor and will gladly pay $2,000 + for the right dog.



It deserves to be said again, the price you pay for a puppy is a mere drop in the bucket of what you will spend in it's lifetime!
I could buy two new poodles for just what Timi's spay and dental are going to cost!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodle Lover said:


> All valid points, but here is a thing. What you pay for the puppy outright is NOTHING compared to what it costs to have that dog its entire life. When I rescue, I take my chances and let the chips fall where they may. But when I am buying from a breeder, I want the health testing, the showing and the titles maybe both in front and behind the dog's name. I want the odds stacked in my favor and will gladly pay $2,000 + for the right dog.



I totally agree with you that what a person pays for a puppy outright doesn't even compare to what it will cost for its entire life. Having a dog for 15 plus years, dog owners will spend thousands and thousands of dollars. Anyone who is a good and caring dog owner will go to the ends of this Earth to make sure their dog is well cared for. 

With that said, if people don't care about the showing and all of the titles, and everything that goes with showing, then I don't think people should be made to feel guilty for not wanting to pay $2,000 + for a Poodle. I'd rather pay $1,100, as long as there is the health testing and the health guarantee. I don't care about all of the showing. Does that make me a bad potential dog owner if I don't want to spend over $2,000 ? I don't think so. The most important thing to me, is to find a good breeder.

Going by that chart that someone shared the other day, a Hobby Breeder is almost as good as a Reputable Breeder, and if I can find a good Hobby Breeder that has a good reputation, and doesn't charge as much, then I'm not afraid to say that I would rather buy from them. I would rather go with a breeder whom I feel very comfortable with, who isn't going to charge me for a show dog that I'm not interested in having. 

Everyone has their own way of thinking about it, and this is mine.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I'e never heard of a hobby breeder doing testing. Doesn't mean there aren't some who do, but still.

Serious show breeders will do testing. A lot of them, not all of them. When they have puppies, there is a fine line between a pet puppy and a show puppy. Some times you can even get a puppy that was thought to be pet quality turn into a show prospect, because it's hard to know for sure when they're little. 

At least in my mind, and around here, show breeders and testing go hand in hand.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Dechi said:


> I'e never heard of a hobby breeder doing testing. Doesn't mean there aren't some who do, but still.
> 
> Serious show breeders will do testing. A lot of them, not all of them. When they have puppies, there is a fine line between a pet puppy and a show puppy. Some times you can even get a puppy that was thought to be pet quality turn into a show prospect, because it's hard to know for sure when they're little.
> 
> At least in my mind, and around here, show breeders and testing go hand in hand.



My breeder from 1999 did health testing, but I have to admit, it was not for everything. I was given a health guarantee, but I think it was for only 1 year. Back in 1999, Kaydee cost $500 ( maybe it was $550, can't remember now for sure).

A few days ago, Tiny Poodles shared a chart, but I don't remember now which thread it was on. I thought I read though that the Hobby Breeder breeds for the betterment of the breed and health testing is done. Maybe I'm mistaken on that though. Sorry if I am.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> I'e never heard of a hobby breeder doing testing. Doesn't mean there aren't some who do, but still.
> 
> Serious show breeders will do testing. A lot of them, not all of them. When they have puppies, there is a fine line between a pet puppy and a show puppy. Some times you can even get a puppy that was thought to be pet quality turn into a show prospect, because it's hard to know for sure when they're little.
> 
> At least in my mind, and around here, show breeders and testing go hand in hand.



A good hobby breeder does show and health test - the difference being that it is a part time endeavor, while they have another career, while for an Experienced Reputable Show Breeder, it is their full time vocation that they devote all of their time and efforts to. The Experienced Reputable Show breeder usually has more dogs and does more breedings, so they have more opportunity to hone their knowledge, and make a true impact on the breed.
When you hear a hobby breeder brag about their dogs "coming from great lines", they are speaking of the lines of The Experienced Reputable Show Breeder.
At best, the hobby breeder perpetuates what the The Experienced Reputable Show Breeder has created, but unless they are guided by someone reputable, they may not meet the mark. But rarely are they going to improve or make an impact on the breed. 

Showing I think is particularly important in our breed because a poodle with good conformation if also a healthy, well functioning dog! My Dalins do not have tear stains because they have properly shaped eyes. My Dalins don't need orthopedic surgeries because they have ideal structure. My Dalins would excel at sports or agility if I chose because beautiful poodle bodies are also highly functional dog bodies.

Teaka is going to go for the title of "world's oldest dog", because she had a breeder who not only health tests, but as her full time vocation, knew enough about pedigrees to select out dogs who had "untestable" health issues, and select for ones that didn't.

Now if I wanted say a German Shepherd, I would actively avoid Show Breeders because in that breed they have allowed the desired look to impact upon the health and functioning of the breed. But in poodles, the higher up that you go on the breeder chain, the healthier and more functional pet you will get, so it is money very well spent!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lily's breeder was a hobby breeder and they tested etc. but Lily wasn't cheap (not high end, but not cheap).


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> A good hobby breeder does show and health test - the difference being that it is a part time endeavor, while they have another career, while for an Experienced Reputable Show Breeder, it is their full time vocation that they devote all of their time and efforts to. The Experienced Reputable Show breeder usually has more dogs and does more breedings, so they have more opportunity to hone their knowledge, and make a true impact on the breed.
> When you hear a hobby breeder brag about their dogs "coming from great lines", they are speaking of the lines of The Experienced Reputable Show Breeder.
> At best, the hobby breeder perpetuates what the The Experienced Reputable Show Breeder has created, but unless they are guided by someone reputable, they may not meet the mark. But rarely are they going to improve or make an impact on the breed.
> 
> ...


When a post is very insightful, and helpful, it should be complimented on. Therefore, great post!


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