# DeSexing



## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

Here is some info I found...

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Clair (Oct 25, 2012)

*Thanks!*



Liafast said:


> Here is some info I found...
> 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


Great article, thank you for that!


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

You are very welcome and good luck


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## Meg (Aug 1, 2010)

This is going to sound totally gross and weird and I can't believe I'm admitting this to the public, but thank dog for internet anonymity...I grew an emotional attachment to Darcy's balls. Do I need to get out more???? lol When I groomed him and wanted him to stay in place, I kind of rested my hand there lightly and he would stay put. I don't know how to explain it. :embarrassed: 

That being said I DID have Darcy neutered several weeks ago. There are many awesome breeders out there who know what they're doing and I don't think I'll ever be committed enough to dedicate the amount of time, money and knowledge it takes to do it right. There are lots of web sites out there that will give you the pros and cons of neutering and spaying. Unfortunatley I can't make that decision for you but I do urge you to reconsider breeding your dog.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Clair said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I dont want to desex my little boy, I feel like the car scene in Marley and Me, where he is trying to tell Marley it's no big deal on the way to the vet...


First, this is a fictional movie. Not real life.




Clair said:


> I think Harry is so cute he deserves to father a litter cause the world would be a better place with more of him..but is it worth it?


That's just fine! What do you know about his lineage? You'll want to do either OFA or PennHip to test his hips to make sure he doesn't pass down hip displasia, you'll also want to get a CERF test done on his eyes to make sure he doesn't pass down a genetic eye disease, you will also want to check his thyroid and so an SA punch to make sure he doesn't pass down Sebaceous adenitis.

And you'll also want to make sure the female has been tested and passed all of her testing as well. Be sure not to breed until after 2 years old as well!


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## Clair (Oct 25, 2012)

Fluffyspoos said:


> First, this is a fictional movie. Not real life.


I know, I was alluding to the sadness Owen Wilson's character had when desexing him.

I should clarify that I'm not actually planning on breeding him, it was the emotional concept, and I won't be letting him sow his wild oats all around the dog park! 

I was just curious as to what arguments are out there and if I was the only one who felt this way


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The balance of the research evidence seems to be against neutering males for health reasons, and in favour of neutering for population control and safety (summarised in the article Liafast linked to above). I would be wary of the "just one or two litters" myself - apart from the genetic testing and other issues, it has always seemed to me that dogs that mate occasionally get much more fired up by a bitch in season, and much more determined to seek her out. Purely anecdotal I know, but as it has been shown that a dog can smell a female in heat from up to five miles away, the risks of having him try to track her down through city traffic are considerable!


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## Clair (Oct 25, 2012)

I think that's a fair summary... which is why it's so hard to decide, I definitely think if I go ahead with it I'll be waiting till he's twoish...

is there anyone who has not desexed their dog and doesn't breed him that has any stories? do you regret it, is he manageable? Or would you reconsider? And did you do it for health reasons, money reasons or 'just didnt want to' reasons?

Thanks for everyone's input


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Maybe not relevant but I know some people (via contract with the breeder) who have intact male service dogs and they can be very hard to handle and temperamental at times. Marking is also an annoying problem with some.

I also have to say that I've known more obnoxious intact males than obnoxious neutered dogs. The intact males even get on the other dog's nerves at the boarding, grooming and pet sitting facilities I've been at over the years. They hound the other dogs, male or female and won't let up. 

Not all, but a lot.

If he's not benefiting his breed by passing on his genes, then it's best to neuter him to prevent an accidental litter.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Spay and neuter*

This is a podcast from Genome barks and AKC Canine health foundation. The study was very recently done by UC Davis. Most male dominance behavior such as humping ( girls do it to) is behavior and not related to desexing. 

Genome Barks


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

How is humping a dominant behavior? Most humping is due to over stimulation. In other words, a dog that is stressed and can't handle the pressure so the humping is to relieve tension. Sure sounds like a confident, "dominant" behavior to me.

Can we separate the fantasy from the fiction? Is science such a bad thing? What the human obsession with dominance?


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

It can be either or......


Why Me? Why Now?
There are several reasons why dogs engage in mounting behavior beyond the need for procreation. Usually, a male dog will mount another male dog as a display of social dominance—in other words, as a way of letting the other dog know who's boss. While not as frequent, a female dog may mount for the same reason. Less commonly, a male might mount another male because his target has been "feminized" as a result of testicular cancer or through the use of certain drugs. Not surprisingly, the smell of a female dog in heat can instigate a frenzy of mounting behaviors. Even other females who aren't in heat will mount those who are. Males will mount males who have just been with estrus females if they still bear their scent. Estrus females may mount unwilling or inexperienced males. And males who catch wind of the estrus odor may mount the first thing (or unlucky person) they come in contact with. Interestingly enough, cats are sometimes the surprised—and unhappy—recipients of canine ardor.

Some dogs mount when they're excited or over-stimulated. Too much petting or grooming, or the arrival of guests, can trigger the behavior—especially in young un-neutered males—and serves as a release for pent-up energy or anxiety. If the excited dog can't find an animate partner, he may seize on a fluffy slipper, wadded-up blanket, throw pillow, or plush toy.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well said, Denise. 

Msminnamouse, humping behavior can be sexually driven, dominance driven (as in an attempt to establish dominance at that point in time), or simply due to excitement/arousal.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

I don't intend for this to come across as mean as it's going to, but I don't see what the debate is. Neuter your pet. Don't risk an accidental litter, and please, please don't make one on purpose!

He actually doesn't care if he gets to father a litter, male dogs have almost no interest in their progeny and dogs do not have sex for pleasure. 

*Don't feel sorry for him in that regard, and feel privileged and honored that you got to spend his life with you and that is has been a unique and special experience. No one else is going to have what you have, and that is MAGICAL not tragic. *

He is an individual, he is part his breeding and part his environment, his puppies while they may look like him and have some behavioral characteristics will end up being shaped by their new owners-ie they're not going to be little replicas of your dog. Are you going to be accountable for the puppies that you make? Will you screen the homes, and when or if the time comes, will you open your doors back up to a pup that needs to be re-homed? That's a lot of responsibility!

A lot of people do end up feeling this way about their pets, but lets be rational here, are you actually going to go out and spend all the money on testing and find a female that's tested? If not, you're not helping create a better world at all. 

This is just really bad judgement, and not the type I would hope a future poodle breeder of mine would have. 

Yeah, I can admit I have had dogs before where I just felt like man it's a damned shame there weren't more of you, but I think some where you have to stop yourself and realize that you're being selfish because you're doing it to make yourself feel better (not your dog, because he seriously doesn't care) and not improving the situation for dogs by becoming an inexperienced breeder (BYB).

Do you not have a spay neuter contract on him?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

He is young now. At about 9 months old he will start to display male behaviors to a greater degree. Some males do fine their whole lives unneutered, but many are a pain in the rear. Some are incredibly obnoxious and a few can be agressive. If your puppy is already dominance humping he may be a male that becomes a pain in the rear in the future. Some unneutered males jump fences and do all kinds of things to roam around and find girls. Some of the behaviors can be trained away. You won't really know how he is going to be until he's older. A lot of dog parks don't allow unneutered males, by the way. 

I think it is nice to allow a male dog to be a little older before neutering (so they look like a male). Most proneutering arguments are all about behavior and preventing unwanted litters. I am not sure the research shows much health benefit to a male dog the way it does for a female. The newest information is against early neutering for both (although there are vets who swear by spaying females at 6 months).

Mounting is, as others have said, not only about mating. My neutered whippet mounts other dogs on occasion to try and show dominance (but he's wimpy and backs off right away). 

Neutered male dogs make better pets in most cases. They are still boyish.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I've chosen to keep my young male intact for health and growth reasons. He's a performance dog, and I've found the information about proper growth without neutering compelling enough for me to make that decision.

I'm not interested in breeding, though I won't give you a hard time for having fleeting thoughts about, "He's so wonderful I want more of him," as this is a very common emotional reaction to loving a dog. But actually taking that plunge into the breeding world is a big responsibility that should be taken seriously, with all the proper health testing done and mates carefully considered, as the previous posters have mentioned.

My boy is 11 months old, and so far hasn't been an obnoxious male. He will hump our other dog, sometimes...enthusiastically, but he doesn't act pushy with dogs in the outside world (rather shy, instead) and doesn't mark excessively. But then he is very highly trained and well-behaved / under control in general. There was a bitch in full-blown heat at class the other night, and he was interested but controllable and could get his mind back on work when I asked him to focus.

I do think staying intact has been a benefit for him, but I have no particular emotional attachment to his boy bits, and if he starts being a pig, turning into one of those obnoxious intact males that are out there...goodbye, balls. :aetsch:

--Q


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Why Do Dogs in Europe Live Longer?

As Dr Becker mentions in this article, we equate neutering with being responsible dog owners, but this is not a world wide view.
I am not advocating for or against the subject, but neutering/spaying is perhaps more a US/Canadian custom than it is throughout Europe, where some countries have restricted the procedure. I understand that this is the norm in Scandinavian countries? Norway outlaws the procedure, and Sweden's dog population is 93% intact.
Spaying or Neutering - The Risks and Benefits - Whole Dog Journal Article

My family is from Europe, and while I do neuter my pets, my parents never have, and they have not had any negative health/behavioral consequences.
For what it is worth, they always have males.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I'll be honest, Bug isn't neutered, most of my dogs are not. I have neutered one of my males since he was a fence jumper and not in a breeding program. I figure if Coulter has any chance of an oops litter because of how difficult he was to contain, I would just be procreating a lot of difficult to place (and contain)pups. Most of my dogs are working dogs in a very small breeding program (I work with another breeder and we co-own several of these dogs). 

Although I have never had any issues managing my intact dogs, the way Bug is, well, bugging me and my curret in season Kelpie, he may be getting a trip to the vet after all. I so don't want Kelpie-Doodles!!! LOL But he has had a crush on her since he was a wee pup and this is killing him. 

I personally don't have any issues with intact males, but intact females yuck! They keep themselves clean, but I HATE the smell! (and the worry).
Bug won't be bred, but his 'dangly doos' don't bother me at all. Actually, I think my neutered male looks odd. I'm so used to intacts that he looks unbalanced to me. Poor Coulter, no wonder he as so many issues! (JK, he had issues before surgery, that's why he had it.)


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Clair said:


> I think that's a fair summary... which is why it's so hard to decide, I definitely think if I go ahead with it I'll be waiting till he's twoish...
> 
> is there anyone who has not desexed their dog and doesn't breed him that has any stories? do you regret it, is he manageable? Or would you reconsider? And did you do it for health reasons, money reasons or 'just didnt want to' reasons?
> 
> Thanks for everyone's input


Rango is 21 months & intact. He is a big boy- 28" & well muscled. This was important to me as I want him athletically sound. My concern was he'd be gangly if we neutered him before plate closure & muscle maturity. In any case, both my holistic & regular vets made it easy on me & independently agreed we should wait until at least 2 if it wasn't causing issues such as inappropriate marking, humping, aggression, etc. Rango displays none of these so it's been easy. Had it not been..... well who knows what I would have decided before now.

An intact male's sense of smell is more acute so he is super sniffy on walks- I limit it because it can get annoying but am fully aware that dogs go less for the walk than the sniff :act-up:

As he approaches his second birthday, I find myself already mentally stalling the decision to have him neutered. I have never had breeding aspirations. We live on 12 acres & while we have an invisible fence around the ENTIRE property, he hasn't worn the collar in over 6 months as he doesn't show signs of wanderlust. Heck, I can barely convince him to eat his RM bones outside _alone_ :ahhhhh: the horror! 

That said, in dog class a few weeks ago, he was making eyes at a younger female he hadn't encountered before. 2 weeks later, the owner dropped from class as her girl came into season. LOL, it seems that Rango could have told her that in advance. Had he been anything more than a little more mildly interested I might feel differently.... as it was, it was just plain cute.

His groomer who breeds & shows Boxers notes that he is very even tempered & a big cuddle bug, especially for an intact male. She theorises that as an altered male he will be even more so. The short of it is that it's a really personal decision & your vet should help you to objectively decide what works for you, your life & your dog. I would suggest that perhaps you might meet with an animal behaviourist who might best predict your dogs temperament.

My husband tells a funny story of his previous boys. After the surgical anesthetic wore off, one started to groom himself & was literally & very obviously GOBSMACKED that his bobs were missing. He actually froze with his leg mid air & did a double take! ound: 

I will add that any of the boarding facilities I wld choose- you know, the ones that take them into the home as part of the pack- will NOT take intact males. Thank goodness i have a great doggie friend network as we do travel quite a bit.

Hope that helped.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

BorderKelpie said:


> but intact females yuck! They keep themselves clean, but I HATE the smell! (and the worry).


Smell? Cali just went through her first heat and I didn't notice a smell of any kind. In fact, I hosted Thanksgiving at my house, while she was in heat, and not one relative mentioned my dog was smelly (and believe me, they would have! LOL). 

I was just going to let her go through one heat and then spay her.....now, I'm not so sure. Managing her while she was in heat was easier than I thought it would be. The recent research certainly points to potential health benefits. I do like the effect her hormones are having on her personality. And last time I talked to her breeder, he really put a wrench in my plans. He asked me if I'd spayed her yet.....he has a really nice boy who has done very well at the shows so far this year and he thinks Cali would be a good fit for him in the future.

So, all things considered, I have no idea what I'm going to do!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

caroline429, most people don't seem to notice the smell. I have a really odd sense of smell and I can detect the 'in heat' smell where other members of my family can not. (Lucky them!) Unfortunatly, I seem to pick up on subtle but unpleasant odors that other people can not. We sometimes 'play' with my sense of smell at work - not necessarily a good thing, since I do work in a lab! lol


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

If the dog in heat smell is bad, intact male urine is SO RANK. Luckily Cairo, intact at 14 months, doesn't have that intact dog smell yet.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> If the dog in heat smell is bad, intact male urine is SO RANK. Luckily Cairo, intact at 14 months, doesn't have that intact dog smell yet.




Oh, good heavens! You're sooo right. When my now 4 year old (this month) intact male Kelpie was hitting puberty, his urine smelled so bad, I thought he was sick (or dying or something lol). I took a sample of it to the lab at work to run it just in case. It was sort of embarassing, there were so many healthy, uh, 'swimmers' in it that we now have an ongoing joke to not let any in season females run alongside him in case he urinates on them and she ends up pregnant! lol But, yeah - he's pretty powerful smelling. My other males are no where near as strong smelling. 

Although, I do use that to my advantage. My front yard is not fenced (yet) and we have a HUGE problem with free-range pet dogs. About once a week or so, I take Willie for a walk in the front yard and have him mark the perimeter. It has cut down on unwanted visitors nicely.  Good boy, William!


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> First, this is a fictional movie. Not real life.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually the film is based on a book that was written by a man and his dogs named marley


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