# Phantom to White?



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

This is not a breeding forum, so I'm not sure anyone will know the answer. I would ask your mentor--hopefully you are working with one?


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## PrettyPartis (Sep 5, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> This is not a breeding forum, so I'm not sure anyone will know the answer. I would ask your mentor--hopefully you are working with one?


Strange comment since I posted this in a forum that clearly says at the top "Poodle Breeding"? 

I realize the question that I asked can have many different answers and that you need to know much more about the colors and color patterns that are in the background of a poodle to get a more definite answer. I was simply curious to get the opinion of others and possible any actual breeding outcomes.

I'm actually pretty knowledgeable about genetics, but again this question was just asking for opinions or first hand knowledge of actual breedings. Ever though I'm past the stage of needing a mentor, I do still rely on my former mentor for advice and we talk frequently, but I certainly appreciate your concern regarding my "needs".

The question regarding the breeding is not even a breeding that I'll be doing. You'll be glad to know that I've correctly predicted (or determined) what the outcome would be with 100% accuracy of every breeding that I've done.

This will be a breeding by another breeder that owes me money, and I'm trying to figure out if I might be interested in a puppy from the litter.

Thanks again for your "help" though.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> This is not a breeding forum, so I'm not sure anyone will know the answer. I would ask your mentor--hopefully you are working with one?


*PrettyPartis*, It's true we don't have many poodle breeders or geneticists here, but a few of us may know the answer or where to point you. I love reading about dog genetics and have learned a great deal over the past two years.

I only vaguely remember the answer to your question, so I'm hardly sure enough to say it would be an okay breeding. Mainly I remember that if you breed two Partis together, one of more in the litter could have health problems. Although I don't have the expertise to tell you, I can tell you who might.

There is a private FB group called *Poodle Colour Genetics* (not affiliated with the sites below, to my knowledge). Try this link and join. They have members who will know the answer.


*Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs by Dr. Sheila Schmultz*, also see her page here. 

Dr. Schmultz developed one or more of the DNA tests used now. I corresponded with her almost two years ago when I had a question about genes, and she responded. She may be retired now. 


*Dog Coat Colour Genetics by Jess*, easy to read, written for laypersons, and written so well that one of the DNA labs use it to refer others to read. 

I'll also suggest you to google "abstract poodles" or "mismarked poodles" in case you learn that breeding a solid white to a Parti could result in an abstract. An abstract or mismarked is a Parti poodle with "faults" in the coloring. I'm not sure what the big deal is about this since a Parti is ineligible for a AKC conformation show anyway; others can chime in on that. You can what they look like at this site. I think they're pretty at least at that site, but don't have a heart attack from sticker shock.

Also, find some Parti breeders online, call and ask. A lot of poodle people love to talk shop, so you might get lucky.

Another FB group is The Poodle Breeders Forum (link). They're not exactly in your ballpark, but might have some answers for your question too.

You can also order a *Full Color Coat Panel*. This is DNA color gene testing at various labs, and generally you submit a saliva swab test for the sire and/or dam. They also test for inheritable genetic conditions/diseases.

This lab here is $168, and this one here is more expensive but sign up for free, and they'll email every time they run a discount. These are often at 40 to 50% off and will probably have the half price sale around Veterans Day. I like them better b/c they have top of the line geneticists and vets, and a doctor will talk to you on the phone if you have any questions understanding the results.

Good luck, and show us your puppies if you get that far!


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> This is not a breeding forum


That is a very strange thing indeed to have said in the “Poodle Breeding and Breeder discussion” forum.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Ethan said:


> That is a very strange thing indeed to have said in the “Poodle Breeding and Breeder discussion” forum.


A few members don't _want_ PF to become a breeding information forum, out of fear that back yard breeders who don't know squat about breeding or have 2nd rate poodles (in terms of health, body structure, and/or temperament that do not meet the Poodle Standard of the Breed) and designer dog or puppy mill people will exploit it. Further, a few feel that only top show breeders should ever breed poodles, and do not even want knowledgeable hobby breeders to breed. 

Thus you will occasionally see that kind of comment as a _well-meaning_ way (in their view) of controlling the flow of information, despite that they have no authority to do so. 

Personally, I don't see top show breeders as the only go-to people who should breed. We have members here who did everything right: they purchased their pup from a health tested pair of champions, and _still_ ended up with that pup later developing a serious genetic problem that is not yet DNA testable. 

I see poodles breeders, top show people and otherwise, falling on a spectrum, from the very good to just plain horrible. Also when information is cut off, visitors and new members simply look elsewhere on the Internet without the support of knowledgeable people here who could give information and support - or worse, they don't look, or look in all the wrong places and ends up with a problem. 

This is like someone telling their teen daughter they don't believe in premarital sex and warn her she'll get pregnant, so they don't educate her. She then asks her friends how to avoid the problem and they tell she can't get pregnant if she and her boyfriend does xyz, and then she gets pregnant from misinformation or none at all.

Even a vet can give poor advice when it comes to breeding, such as saying your pregnant female that is a few days from delivery doesn't need an x-ray and that "nature will do it's job and she and the pups will be fine." I learned from experience this isn't necessarily true; lost the too-large and breach first pup in a difficult delivery causing the 2nd one to also die. 

So I hope there is a balance and that I've ruffled no feathers. I see no problem with our dedicated and loving members gently and compassionately warning of the downside of breeding in a specific situation, and recently they did an excellent job in this thread, "_Hi! I am seeking help and support/advice as a dog mom looking to breed one litter"_.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PrettyPartis said:


> Strange comment since I posted this in a forum that clearly says at the top "Poodle Breeding"?


I believe what was meant here wasn't that this subforum isn't a breeding forum (it is) but more that the forum (poodleforum.com) isn't geared toward breeders and doesn't have a lot of breeders on it, so isn't necessarily going to have the answer to the question you have. I don't think it was meant in a nasty way at all.

I think some members are very scrutinizing of breeders because of how much backyard breeding is seen with poodles, but I think you will find the forum welcoming toward people who put in the work to be responsible breeders.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Thank you for "getting me," Raindrops


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

It depends on what they genes they carry. Phantom is Ky/ky at but whites could be KB/KB or KB/ky, KB/kb ..anything with big KB cannot express the A patterns. 

Breeding a solid to a parti can produce abstract which you cannot show AKC but you can show UKC . Some abstracts carry parti and some are just fever coats. My abstract girl is out of a solid cream and abstract sire. Genetically she is KB/KB at/a (carries phantom but can’t express because of KB) ee, and S/sp (parti carrier). 



Abstracts and parti btw do not produce unhealthy puppies because of the gene. That is Merle that does that ( which is not a poodle color ) and that is unrelated to the parti/ spotting gene. 

I use paw print gentics for health and color testing. They have a lot of discounts if you watch their Facebook page. 

Join the color facebook group mentioned above as there are a lot of knowledgeable people there. Also Poodle Breeders is another group for learning .


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