# Need A Little Help From My Friends



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi guys,

My friend is considering purchasing a puppy from Admiration Standard Poodles in Southern California, but she wants to find out more about the parents of the perspective puppy. I've tried to search poodle pedegree, OFFA and poodle health registry, but can't find anything.  I am honestly terrible at researching and so is my friend, so I am hoping you guys can help.

The sire's name is Ch Admiration Heroes and Villains "Fletcher".
The dam's name is Admiration Hanky Panky "Anja".

Thanks in advance,


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm sorry I couldn't be of much help here, Julia. But if I remember correctly, PaddleAddict's father-in-law got his spoo from Admiration so maybe PA could shed you some light on the breeder. 

Jaset, also in SoCal, has a black spoo pup right now. Your friend might want to check them out too.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

My FIL has a poodle from Admiration, but I think she came from a "friend" or something of the breeder and was shipped here to California from another state. She was a little older, maybe 4 months old? To be honest, I don't know much about it and I don't know the sire and dam of my FIL's dog.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

I am actually looking for help on researching the parents' pedigrees, their health testing, etc. I know that wishpoo and Jack were really good at it, but I don't see them posting much anymore. Anyone who can help, it will be greatly appreciated.


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## wolfcub81 (Feb 5, 2010)

They are both listed on Poodle Health Registry...just do a search for the kennel name and they both come up. Other than that, I don't know how to help.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

In the sire's pedigree there are three dogs that jump out at me. Dassin Delano is five gens back and it appears he has produced pups with nearly every ailment known to Spoos. Eaton Affirmed is also in the fifth generation and has also produced loads of issues. But, both were extremely popular stud dogs and it is all relative. With the number of offspring produced by EA there were bound to be problems at some point. He was bred to MANY females and only produced issues with several of them. What scares me more is Avion Totally Foxy at Harbovi. She is only three gens back and has produced Addisons and Sebaceous Adenitis. There is not much testing on this side at all. Dassin Delano appears twice on this side

On the dam's side, Alias Just Give Me That Wink is in the first gen has produced S/A and HD. Avion Totally Foxy at Harbovi is also on this side, as well as Eaton Affirmed and Dassin Delano is on her side twice.

Personally I think with dogs with all of these issues, the doubling and quadrupling of them in the pedigrees of both the sire and dam is troubling.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Double post...


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## EmilyK (Mar 26, 2011)

Wow, that is really disturbing! How did you find out all that information? I have the pedigree of my new spoo and now am feeling curious. Or maybe some things are better left unknown when it's just a pet that I'm already attached to...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

EmilyK said:


> Wow, that is really disturbing! How did you find out all that information? I have the pedigree of my new spoo and now am feeling curious. Or maybe some things are better left unknown when it's just a pet that I'm already attached to...


You pull up a vertical pedigree on Poodle Health Registry. All of the dogs and any reposted testing or lack thereof, or issues in them or their descendants is there.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I ALLLMOST bought a puppy from Admiration from this exact litter (I am in SoCal)! They will be ready in June, if I recall. There is also another litter that was ready to go a couple weeks ago from a friend of Admiration, but I did not pursue that. The dogs are very pretty and the breeder extremely nice, but I decided to go with my puppy instead. 

My puppy had much health testing, all published on the OFA site and the poodle health registry site and the CHIC site for generations plus a low coefficient of inbreeding. I gave up the AKC show size dogs of Admiration for a preformance mixed with a show line. I believed, rightly or not, that this was the way to get the healthiest, most stable personality in a dog. I liked getting the preformance dogs in there. I also liked the holistic rearing. I bought a puppy 11 years ago from someone who didn't test and ended up with a dog with lifelong health issues with a nervous personality. I loved her, but wanted to do it differently this time. 

I do not think that Admiration has poor dogs, though. Like I said, I almost bought one. Their dogs have particularly nice heads, rather long in the muzzle with pretty eyes. I think the breeder is very competent and wants to produce nice dogs and does produce nice AKC showable dogs. 

Lets face it, it is hard to find an AKC high quality standard poodle without some of those dogs in their backgrounds. I do think there should not be a double dose of those dogs in the pedigree, though. I think anything in the last three generations is important to see health testing. Before that it just wasn't done at the level it is now and people did use the same sires over and over. 

As far as I know, Admiration has healthy dogs even if a few in the background were not.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks for your feedback Arreau and Outwest. I will forward the information to my friend.
I live in San Francisco and see a couple of Admiration dogs at the park I frequent, they are beautiful (one black, one brown), but they are walked by a dog walker and she doesn't know any particulars.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> Thanks for your feedback Arreau and Outwest. I will forward the information to my friend.
> I live in San Francisco and see a couple of Admiration dogs at the park I frequent, they are beautiful (one black, one brown), but they are walked by a dog walker and she doesn't know any particulars.


Please don't get me wrong. I am sure their dogs are lovely, and am sure not all of their litters have these issues. I am not dissing them. Just telling you what I found in this particular pedigree.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Please don't get me wrong. I am sure their dogs are lovely, and am sure not all of their litters have these issues. I am not dissing them. Just telling you what I found in this particular pedigree.


Don't worry, I don't think you are dissing them, just merely stating the facts that you've found. I asked for help on their pedigrees and that's exactly what you did. The truth is the truth, no matter how much we sometimes don't want to hear it.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I think Arreau did an admirable job checking out the pedigree. I do know how to research pedigrees and the testing, but I do not know enough about the poodle breed to have answered as well as she did on the pedigree! 

Here is more info on the testing of the parents:

The sire of this litter Ch Admiration Heroes and Villains "Fletcher" tested GOOD on hips, but no other tests are listed. The sires father tested excellent on hips and normal on sabaceous adenitis, his dam tested excellent on hips, normal on thyroid and sebatious adenitis. So- to me this is a little bit limited in the testing. 

The dam of this litter Admiration Hanky Panky "Anja" tested FAIR on hips. I wanted a dog that tested GOOD or EXCELLENT (Remember, I had a dog with bad hips). Her sire tested fair and her dam tested GOOD with a normal thyroid. 

The dogs don't have CHIC numbers and aren't completely tested. DNA has not been submitted. To be fair, testing is very, very expensive. Not everyone does all the testing. The PENN hip test is a lot more expensive than the OFA hip test, for example. Seeing AKC CHAMPION before the name of their sire or dam may be more important to others than to me. This litter does have a champion sire. 

It is a balancing act. The best looking dogs are not always the healthiest. The trick for breeders is to get an awesome looking dog that also tests great. That is VERY hard to do!

Here is an example of a fully tested dog:
CHIC CERTIFIED
PO-SA2540/12M-VPI SEBACEOUS ADENITIS May 13 2008 Jun 9 2008 12 NORMAL 
PO-TH1149/12M-VPI THYROID May 13 2008 Jun 9 2008 12 NORMAL 
LDI=.55, RDI=.55 PENNHIP HIPS May 13 2008 Dec 9 2008 12 LDI=.55, RDI=.55 
PO-CA432/12M/P-VPI CARDIAC May 13 2008 Dec 10 2008 12 NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
PO-PA926/12M/P-VPI PATELLA May 13 2008 Dec 10 2008 12 NORMAL - PRACTITIONER 
PO-17907G25M-VPI HIPS Jun 24 2009 Aug 20 2009 25 GOOD 
POS-5493 CERF Jan 13 2010 Jan 13 2010 32 TESTED: 07,08,09,10 
PO-DM168/38M-VPI DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY Jul 26 2010 Aug 11 2010 38 NORMAL 
PO-NES316/38M-VPI NEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY W/SEIZURES Jul 26 2010 Aug 18 2010 38 NORMAL 
DNA SUBMITTED


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thanks very much!!

Our girls have been tested to the nines. If you go to www.offa.org and type in their registered names in the search bar on the left side (Arreau's Golden Slumber and Arreau's I'll Follow the Sun) all of their testing comes up. If you click on each test, the results are clear. They also have CHIC numbers, which means they have been tested for all the recommended things that the breed club feels are breed specific. Unless a breeder lists the testing of the OFFA site or will furnish you with clear documentation, you have no way to know if the testing has been done or not. A year and a half ago, I did not feel it was necessary to post results on the site, but since I have been searching for stud dogs, I realize how much easier it makes things, and also reduces the risk that documents may have been doctored.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Here is the website (you had an extra o in the address  :

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

Here is the CHIC website:
Canine Health Information Center

PS CERF testing is for the eyes. I had to look that one up when I was checking.

Arreau- I commend you for having fully tested breeding dogs with CHIC numbers. Not every buyer is going to care or even be aware that dogs are tested. By posting results you do a great service to other breeding and the buying public, if they look. It was only because of my past experiences and knowing the dog show world a little that it even occured to me to hunt for this. If breeders take the time, energy and money to do things correctly it can only mean good things for purebred dogs. When I was showing boxers and breeding them 20 years ago, testing was not even thought about! 

My puppy, from fully tested parents, is not going to be a purely pretty girl as her legs are a tad shorter than the show dogs, but she is put together really well. Today, at just 4 months old, when I took her on a walk she saw a man and dog far ahead of us. She popped up on her hind legs and STAYED there, solid as a rock, bobbing her head back and forth to check him out. My last standard did not have the coordination to do that, particularly as a young puppy. I am impressed with her body control at such a young age. 

Usually you can have one or the other- stunning looking or stunning health. Some day, with the help of ethical breeders, we will have both!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

outwest said:


> Here is the website (you had an extra o in the address  :
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> ...


Oh, I believe we can and do have both. One of our pups from last year is now being shown in Germany. He got the highest possible score he could get in his class. He is stunning, brilliant (he is going to be a Red Cross Search and Rescue dog) and his parents have testing done and his full sisters are the girls who have been tested so well. So it is happening and you do not need to forfeit one for the other. Unfortunately many breeders opt not to test to the limit we have. And sadly, not every stunning show dog who wins its championship should be bred. Attached is a photo of Murphy at his first show...


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[QUOTE *Usually you can have one or the other- stunning looking or stunning health. Some day, with the help of ethical breeders, we will have both![/*QUOTE]

I beg to differ here. Many breeders who are ethical, reputable, conscientious and hard working at the betterment of the breed but who may not be members of this forum do infact have BOTH health and beauty as well as sublime temperaments in thier dogs/line and never have to sacrifice or compromise one for the other.

They are judiciously breeding from well researched and proven lines with health and temperament first and foremost in mind as well as enjoy many prestigious wins, such as Best In Shows , Best Puppy In Show and numerous group and group placement and performance wins with dogs emanating from their breeding.

These breeders' pups are not only long lived but also enjoy illustrious conformation (show) careers, so yes, you can with alot of hard work, breed and pedigree knowledge and a die hard interest in preserving the health of the breed produce both beauty and health in a puppy.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Hey Ora,

It's great to have you posting on the forum again!!! 
I agree with you, there are more and more show breeders that breed for confirmation, health, temperament and all around good dogs. Great looks and health are not mutually exclusive.

Unfortunately, a lot of people will still let their hearts rule over the facts. Many want instant gratification and go for what's available vs. waiting for the right dog. As long as that continues there will always be room for BYB and puppy mills.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

While there are many show breeders doing it all right and are breeding for the complete package, there are also many who have wonderful show dogs with terrifying backgrounds health wise, or who are producing pups with through the roof COI's.

And while there are many BYB's breeding for all the wrong reasons, there are some who are doing it right and are producing astounding puppies who knock everyone's socks off, are bright, even tempered and healthy. There are all kinds of "diamonds in the rough" out there, you just need to know what you are looking for.

If you want a dog with it all, look for breeders whose dogs and/or puppies are being titled in lots of arenas. Bibelot's biggest stud of the last 20 years was Bibelot Cherod Tinsmith, and while he held no titles at all, he has champion offspring all over the world and titled children in agility, rally, obedience and field work.

One must do their research to be sure what they are being presented with is the truth and will not become a heartache along the way.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> Hey Ora,
> 
> It's great to have you posting on the forum again!!!
> 
> Unfortunately, a lot of people will still let their hearts rule over the facts. Many want instant gratification and go for what's available vs. waiting for the right dog. As long as that continues there will always be room for BYB and puppy mills.



Thank you very much Poodle Lover. Glad to be back.

I believe more newbies and concerned future poodle owners seek information they may not readily find available on the net or even from breeders who push genetic dirt under the rug, as such it is the responsibility of ethical breeders who are honest about testing and health/longevity in their lines to join and be an active part of this forum in order to *set the bar high *for the breed, and the breeders who do enjoy both prestigious wins in the conformation ring coupled with ethical breeding to produce healthy and long lived dogs. 

There are so many stunning champions that are worthy both as show dogs and more importantly as sires, and the breeders who invest their hard worked $$ to promote such a special dog , show and finish *all puppies that they keep from each litter *are the ones that deserve the credit and who surely have done all possible to test their dog and make sure that they are worthy before offering them at stud and continuing thier line with.

These breeders are out there and people *know who they are *and what value their "Stunning champions" have for the breed's future....and the puppies they produce.

People either in or out of this forum have to go looking for these breeders, they are out there, very much active with their beautiful and healthy dogs in conformation and/or performance, or both.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Pedigree's of Dogs in question*

I don't know if this is ok, but here are the links to the dogs on PHR.

PHR Pedigree Database

PHR Pedigree Database


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