# Need some help with a prong dog collar



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

For rally training, I purchased Babykins a Herm Sprenger Snap Prong Dog Collar 14 Inch with quick release. It came in the mail today. https://www.dog.com/item/herm-sprenger-snap-prong-dog-collar/100205/

I put it on her and she was trying to chew it. Even worse, it got caught and tangled in her fur - her neck and ear fur. I only had it on her for about five minutes and for most of that time I gave her a Kong treat to distract her from the collar.

How do I deal with it getting caught up in her fur? How do I stop her from chewing it?

I'm not sure if I have it sized correctly. I removed one prong. When you pull the chain so that the pronged part of the collar is pulled towards the ring, it doesn't "dig" into her, but the prongs almost touch her neck so if she is pulling, I'm sure they will dig in to remind her not to pull but not all around her neck. The collar is 14" and her neck measures 10".

I plan to put it on her several times a day for a week to get her used to it only when I can supervise her 100%. Is this the right thing to do or should I be doing something different?


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

It seems weird to use a prong collar to teach rally. Can't you just train her with proper positive training methods? My boy is as hyper and crazy as they can come but with some treats and training his training is coming along well (currently doing agility and conformation). I'm not 'against' things like prongs and such but I don't feel like it's necessary for most dogs for rally training, especially poodles.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with Mysticrealm - I would work on the pulling with lots of loose leash training and With Me games, rather than relying on a prong collar as a prop. For Rally or similar sports you need your dog focussed on you, tuned in to how you move and every cue and command, rather than reacting to an uncomfortable thing around her neck. I would spend the time working on teaching her to walk with you, rather than getting used to a collar you shouldn't really need - especially as with her Good Community work she must already be well on the way to having the skills you both need. If the prong collar is recommended by the instructor, I would think about looking for a different class...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

A pinch collar is a proper tool when used properly. I actually think a proper pinch collar is easier on a dog than even a nylon unlimited slip collar that can really choke a dog and that handlers give hard pops with. The person pops the collar harder and harder if they get more frustrated. Dogs tend to get more anxious with them, so the pops get harder. Before you know it you are hanging the dog because you have pulled hard enough to lift their front end off the floor. I use them all the time and my dogs understand that they represent that we are working. All of the top obedience (and rally) trainers I know teach their proper use and use them themselves all of the time. If this trainer (as many do) look at rally as an introduction to lead to traditional obedience then zero pulling through the use of a pinch collar along with attention games sounds okay to me.

Allowing the dog time to get used to the collar (or any new tool) should be done with positive markers for being relaxed about the tool. I would put the collar on and not hook it to anything for a week or two. Give her treats for accepting it without trying to chew it. BTW my dogs will chew almost any collar or harness that is new if they can reach it.

When a poodle has a lot of coat on you need a little extra play in how a pinch collar fits, but I know someone with a GCh, OTCh, MACh poodle who got all of those titles in a full show coat and with a pinch collar on.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

I just don't see the point of training with a prong. You can't compete with it on so you're still going to have to phase it out during training anyway so why not just teach the dog the behaviours you want instead of relying on the collar to punish what you don't want right from the beginning? I stopped competing with my Dane after a bad storm during a very busy competition day made his storm anxiety associated with the show setting and took the fun out of it for him, but he was halfway through his RAE and had two PCD (Beginner novice in AKC) legs easily all trained on a flat collar with positive methods, no prong needed. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Mysticrealm said:


> It seems weird to use a prong collar to teach rally. Can't you just train her with proper positive training methods? My boy is as hyper and crazy as they can come but with some treats and training his training is coming along well (currently doing agility and conformation). I'm not 'against' things like prongs and such but I don't feel like it's necessary for most dogs for rally training, especially poodles.


Up until now everything has been positive training only and Babykins is very food driven which helps in initial training.

We've just started agility. I can't imagine the use of a prong collar. 

I'm not knowledgeable at all about collars, but my rally trainer and two people in my class show their dogs and they all use the prong collar for training as they feel it best protects the fur around their dog's neck - my trainer has a stunningly gorgeous Keeshond and in the class is an American Eskimo Dog and a sheltie - all males and all currently competing in conformation.My trainer is against the slip collar and feels it damages the fur and may be used in correctly.

I use a regular leather collar and leash and for most of what we do in the class I will continue with that - the pinch collar will be on her for me to switch to for certain exorcises, however I can't remember exactly what she wanted it for. And I won't use it if I think it's being cruel.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

fjm said:


> I agree with Mysticrealm - I would work on the pulling with lots of loose leash training and With Me games, rather than relying on a prong collar as a prop. For Rally or similar sports you need your dog focussed on you, tuned in to how you move and every cue and command, rather than reacting to an uncomfortable thing around her neck. I would spend the time working on teaching her to walk with you, rather than getting used to a collar you shouldn't really need - especially as with her Good Community work she must already be well on the way to having the skills you both need. If the prong collar is recommended by the instructor, I would think about looking for a different class...


Well she does sometimes pull when out walking and looking for the perfect potty spot when she is sniffing, but otherwise she doesn't pull. She walks loose leash walking on a daily basis and she is fairly good with heeling - she looks at me and watches me looking for changes. Believe me I've done tons of training to get to this point.

She's also fairly good being focused on me - and I've been testing this recently. We go to small dog social - lots of dogs running free in a room that she loves to play with. I can get her to come to me and focus 100% on me no matter that there are dogs running and bumping into her, barking and just the normal fun and chaos. What I had her do was sit and look at me in the face while I wildly waved my hands and her leash with the dog chaos going on - she focused on my face and of course got a treat reward and praise for great focus- I was actually very proud that she can do this now because at the beginning she was 100% focused on the other dogs. I know that we need to continue to work on that for both rally and agility.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

kayla_baxter said:


> I just don't see the point of training with a prong. You can't compete with it on so you're still going to have to phase it out during training anyway so why not just teach the dog the behaviours you want instead of relying on the collar to punish what you don't want right from the beginning? I stopped competing with my Dane after a bad storm during a very busy competition day made his storm anxiety associated with the show setting and took the fun out of it for him, but he was halfway through his RAE and had two PCD (Beginner novice in AKC) legs easily all trained on a flat collar with positive methods, no prong needed.


I wouldn't force Babykins into doing something that was upsetting her. My tpoo developed anxiety about thunderstorms as an older adult- she learned it from another dog at a kennel when we were on vacation - OMG it's horrible to see them so scared. I would do exactly as you, if it's not fun, we aren't doing it.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Pinch collars were designed to train out 'pulling'. They have NO other use. If your dog doesn't pull... forget the pinch collar.

The best collar/lead I found for the ring is a light slip-lead. Easy on, easy off.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> A pinch collar is a proper tool when used properly. I actually think a proper pinch collar is easier on a dog than even a nylon unlimited slip collar that can really choke a dog and that handlers give hard pops with. The person pops the collar harder and harder if they get more frustrated. Dogs tend to get more anxious with them, so the pops get harder. Before you know it you are hanging the dog because you have pulled hard enough to lift their front end off the floor. I use them all the time and my dogs understand that they represent that we are working. All of the top obedience (and rally) trainers I know teach their proper use and use them themselves all of the time. If this trainer (as many do) look at rally as an introduction to lead to traditional obedience then zero pulling through the use of a pinch collar along with attention games sounds okay to me.
> 
> Allowing the dog time to get used to the collar (or any new tool) should be done with positive markers for being relaxed about the tool. I would put the collar on and not hook it to anything for a week or two. Give her treats for accepting it without trying to chew it. BTW my dogs will chew almost any collar or harness that is new if they can reach it.
> 
> When a poodle has a lot of coat on you need a little extra play in how a pinch collar fits, but I know someone with a GCh, OTCh, MACh poodle who got all of those titles in a full show coat and with a pinch collar on.


Where we train for rally appears to be the top training facility in my area. This is my second class there, in the first there were two trainers from another school. In my current class there is a trainer from yet another school. My agility place is a half hour closer and focused on agility - my agility trainer lives near me which means she is also driving almost an hour to go to the same place I'm going for her rally training. This seems to be the top place for rally and dog training in general and it's very difficult to get into the classes. Every trainer I've come into contact speak highly of this place. I do think as Catherine says they are careful about training tools. My rally trainer does not want slip leashes used. 

I never pull up/pop on Babykins leash - I was shown it was a way to get her to sit neatly, but she does it on her own. So I've never used popping a leash as part of my training. 

I'm open to see what my trainer wants me to do with the pinch collar and how it will be used. I will introduce it slowly with rewards as Catherine suggested and watch Babykins closely to be certain she is okay with it.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Countryboy said:


> Pinch collars were designed to train out 'pulling'. They have NO other use. If your dog doesn't pull... forget the pinch collar.
> 
> The best collar/lead I found for the ring is a light slip-lead. Easy on, easy off.


Interesing - I know my daughter used the slip lead to take her dog into and out of the agility ring. But in the rally class the teacher does not want it being used for the reason that Catherine stated.

And since we don't have 'pulling" during class, then maybe I have bought something we won't need to use. I will have to see why the teacher wanted it. In the meantime we continue to train with a regular leather collar = the same she wears for walks and potty break.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

i think Countryboy means a combination slip lead and collar in one. In other words a choke collar that is part of the leash. I apologize if I am wrong about that.

My version of a slip leash is a leash that has no clip to attach to a collar. I use them all the time. I have a couple of pretty ones that I use for matches and trials, but for everyday training I just use a really long boot lace. You slide one end through the dog's collar and then you hold both ends of the lead.

As to those who think a pinch collar is a way for you to punish your dog I disagree since it is the dog that makes the decisions about what the collar does and basically it is a martingale type collar that cannot choke the dog if it is properly fitted. In formal obedience training the people who use them use them as a way to send a signal to a dog that is forging, lagging, wide or that has broken heads up attention. 

We have had this debate about tools over and over again. I doubt any of us will change our minds, so please understand that if anyone wants to have another go around about pinch collars that will end with frustration and polarization I will not be in the pool. We can all train with methods and tools that work for us as long as we improve the relationships and enrich the lives of our dogs in the process.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

You may not want to hear this, but for a mini I would definitely have gotten the HS micro prong collar, which is harder to find. I got mine from JJ Dog (I have standards but still use the micro prong). It is much less clunky and more appropriate to getting the precision and power steering you want in Rally or Obedience. 

It sounds like it is not fitted properly if she is able to chew it. It should fit snugly and should not dangle on her neck. Your instructor can help you get the correct fit. 

I think prongs are a useful tool when fitted and used properly, and far safer than either a slip collar or a head harness on a head-strong dog.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Countryboy said:


> The best collar/lead I found for the ring is a light slip-lead. Easy on, easy off.


The AKC Obedience and Rally rings require a collar and separate lead--no slip leads. I believe slip leads are OK in agility.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve I think Babykins is an oversize mini, so the small link collar she has should be fine, but may need a link or two out depending on how much coat the dog has. I find myself always taking links out and putting them back as I take their coats down and they grow back. The only person I know who has the micro pinch collars is my private trainer who has Pomeranians.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Verve said:


> You may not want to hear this, but for a mini I would definitely have gotten the HS micro prong collar, which is harder to find. I got mine from JJ Dog (I have standards but still use the micro prong). It is much less clunky and more appropriate to getting the precision and power steering you want in Rally or Obedience.
> 
> It sounds like it is not fitted properly if she is able to chew it. It should fit snugly and should not dangle on her neck. Your instructor can help you get the correct fit.
> 
> I think prongs are a useful tool when fitted and used properly, and far safer than either a slip collar or a head harness on a head-strong dog.


Thanks for the info - I'll show it to the trainer and let her decide if it's the correct one. I think I'll be okay. As Catherine pointed out Babykins is a slightly oversized mini. Two of the dogs in the class were wearing prong collars - similar size to Babykins and they had this same collar. If she recommends this smaller collar, I'll buy it and see if I can return this one - it didn't cost much so it's okay.

I think she was able to chew it because when I pull the D ring so the collar is at it's smallest, it fits exactly around her neck under her ears, but when I don't have a leash attached, the collar spreads open so it's wider and hangs down a little. But I think I should check with the trainer to make sure it's sized right. I bought extra links and I kept the link I removed so I have options. I was pleased how easy it was to remove or add back the links. This is good because in the winter I've let her coat grow long, but in the summer she'll have a short clipping.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

It would be interesting to see why the trainer thought you needed one. If your dog doesn't pull, I see no reason to get one. I would hate for a debate on the topic to pop up here, but I really don't think you need one, especially for Rally. And if the only reason turns out to be for her coat, then I am at a bit of a loss. Surely it creates just as much of a divot?
I work with all of my dogs on harnesses. I find flat collars can cause damage if the dog starts and I strongly disagree with the use of tools designed to cause pain. I usually train my dog what to do first, so I've never had a problem with pulling on the harness.
It seems odd that your trainer would suggest it. I would proceed with caution, and back out of the class if they start to suggest anything you are uncomfortable with. There is no need to use a prong collar for anything, but with Rally and a well mannered dog is seems like a trainer just suggesting a tool they like to use, rather than something you actually need.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

LittleAussiePoodle harnesses are not allowed in any of the performance sport rings in the US, so there is little point in training on harnesses if that is your goal.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Skylar I don't think a properly fitted prong collar is supposed to drop down at all.

I have found the prong collars to be a wonderful tool, when used properly. My two larger dogs are pullers and I have tried everything.... flat collars, halti's, slip collars and the no pull harnesses. The halti's are great but my dogs hate them, the harnesses worked at first but soon they were pulling with them as well, plus my dogs hated wearing them. After doing a lot of research I decided to try the prong collar..... it was like night and day, no more pulling! 
Also when we go to put them on for our walks our dogs are excited so this tells me they are not at all uncomfortable to wear.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have no issue with using a prong collar to control a dog you might otherwise struggle to control, but I am curious specifically what aspect of rally training you need a prong collar for? I ask this not in judgment, but because I think you can end up missing out on some great aspects of relationship by using a tool that is more aversive than necessary for the task at hand. So if you are struggling with control (lunging, barking, dragging you around) by all means, use a prong to help you have better control so that learning can take place. But if you have a dog who is under control, I think you'll find that you can achieve great success with a buckle or martingale collar. 

If you have concerns about coat, I absolutely love rolled leather chain martingales. 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/115696...l&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=rolled


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

LittleAussiePoodle said:


> It would be interesting to see why the trainer thought you needed one. If your dog doesn't pull, I see no reason to get one. I would hate for a debate on the topic to pop up here, but I really don't think you need one, especially for Rally. And if the only reason turns out to be for her coat, then I am at a bit of a loss. Surely it creates just as much of a divot?
> I work with all of my dogs on harnesses. I find flat collars can cause damage if the dog starts and I strongly disagree with the use of tools designed to cause pain. I usually train my dog what to do first, so I've never had a problem with pulling on the harness.
> It seems odd that your trainer would suggest it. I would proceed with caution, and back out of the class if they start to suggest anything you are uncomfortable with. There is no need to use a prong collar for anything, but with Rally and a well mannered dog is seems like a trainer just suggesting a tool they like to use, rather than something you actually need.


:adore:

I don't see any reason to use a tool that causes pain or discomfort to train a dog either. I've never had to use one for any dog and I've trained a lot of dogs...hard headed, bullish dogs, oblivious dogs, totally in lala land dogs. 

If you're interested in training a dog using motivation and reward and they learn better _HOW_ TO LEARN using PR methods, using pain or avoidance in some cases and then not others can cause them to be confused and not learn as well when you use PR methods. It's better to stick with showing the dog what _TO_ do and how it pays off than to use force so the dog avoids discomfort or pain. 

For those sports or anything really, where you want your dog to be super enthusiastic and fast, using anything that slows them, stops them in their tracks, makes them back down, you're defeating the purpose imo. My little show dog, Matisse was such a good show dog, partly because of his temperament which is so full of gusto, but partly because he was never worried about trying something. He pranced like a little Arabian horse with such spirit and real torque. Some dogs will lose that when they think they might get held back or poked or pinched. It can cause a minute amount of hesitation sometimes. Dogs don't throw new behaviors as well when they anticipate the possibility of pain or unpleasantness. So the odds then, go down that they'll do the behavior you're looking for. They can also lunge in reaction to something when you're not expecting it...maybe at another dog or something that spooks them. Then they get poked hard in the neck and whatever is associated with that pain becomes the bad thing. It can make dogs highly reactive that were perhaps only mildly responding to something before. 

I know trainers and dogs owners use them. But I don't see any need and never have. 

People say they tried PR methods and they didn't work. That's ridiculous. They work. It's the people who did not know alternatives that don't involve pain. They weren't using all the PR tools in the tool box. It's easier to put on some collar and stop behavior than to spend more time learning. It can get results faster in some cases but not really...when the dog gets onto the learning game.

The trouble with stopping behavior directly instead of increasing wanted behavior and squeezing out the unwanted behavior as it's replaced by the wanted behavior... is that you run the risk of stopping behavior in a global or general way. They can just loose some of that wonderful brightness and strong desire to learn. I've seen it plenty. Yes, proponents say things like "If it's used right." I don't know that there is _any_ right way to cause pain. And if they tell you it won't cause pain, that's bs because it wouldn't work if it didn't. :alberteinstein:


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## aasteapots (Oct 6, 2013)

I didn't bother to read past the first two protests but my two cents is that a prong collar is a very good training tool and as long as you are not dragging your dog around on it or using it for punishment of some sort you are not doing anything wrong by using a perfectly acceptable tool for training. Prong collars are better than a nylon or chain slip collar. Anyway that is my opinion. I use one with Coal because she needs it. It was given to me by the trainer.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

lily cd re, I didn't mean to compete in a harness. My point was that I have always trained dogs in harnesses and walk them on harnesses because prong collars are unnecessary. If your dog is trained not to pull, he won't pull in a flat collar, or a harness, or whatever. If you train your dog in a harness, you would have no issue with putting him in a flat for competition. 
My point when saying that flats can hurt if the dog starts was that I prefer to train my dogs on a harness, because the flat can inflict pain on a dog if he is untrained and happens to pull or lunge for something. A harness can hurt, obviously, but in a normal situation where you aren't relying on corrections, it's perfect. It's something there in case of an emergency, but no tool should substitute training, which is what a prong does.
If your dog is trained not to pull, why couldn't you just clip a leash onto his flat and compete in that? I don't really get why I was even misunderstood here, I thought that was just common sense.

I always try to be level headed, but I admit that if one thing really sets me off, it's prong, shock, and choke collars. I apologize if I come off a bit rude here. I felt I had to add that I never meant to compete in a harness. Hendrix and I are planning to do Rally soon, so I know how it works and have already trained for it, all off leash, or in a harness. I can easily just clip a leash onto his flat collar for competition, it's not a huge deal.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

How is training in a harness really different than training with a collar that you cannot have the dog wear in a sport ring? They are all tools that can be sued properly or can be misused in uneducated hands.

Additionally *any* tool that limits a dog's choice (harness included, and some harnesses can be physically harmful or painful by limiting motion) is a coersive or aversive tool if we really want to get down to nitty gritties. Does that mean no dog should ever wear a collar or leash or have its choices limited through the wearing of them? Not if the alternative is for it to run into the street after a squirrel to be hit by a car.

We will simply have to disagree about this. I will respect those who are +R only along with those whose methods are balanced. As an educator with over 30 years experience I have always favored balanced methods and nearly always had good outcomes with them. On the other hand I have seem many +R only people get steam rollered by students who saw them as weak over the years.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

To clarify, yes, there is a point to training in a harness. As I tried to point out, if you are working with an untrained dog, it's likely he walks on a tense leash or pulls, and is a tad reactive. If you train him on a harness, he's not going to hurt his windpipe when he gets to the end of the leash like he might in a flat collar.
To me, the leash and whatever it's attached to should be emergency items in case the dog is not fully under your control, whatever the situation might be, and because it's against the law to walk dogs off leash. The dog should wear a collar, and the collar should hold identification tags, both in case the dog manages to slip the harness (rare), or you let go of the leash without meaning to, or the leash snaps with the untrained dog. It should not, in my mind, be there to yank and thank the dog.
Yes, they are all tools that can be misused. My point is that when used in the way that I see correct - ie, not yanking on the dog's neck - the harness is much less likely to cause serious injury. When you speak of, "Incorrect use," you are talking about people mishandling dogs on them. Tell me, do you think this is people just putting their dogs in these harnesses or collars in case they becomes spooked or lunge for something, or the people who think pain and intimidation is the way to stop a dog from pulling?

For one who claims to respect those who use PR and NP, you seem to rather dislike us. We do get steam rolled a lot for being, "Weak." Why does that make us worse trainers? That's like saying people who are teased a little must have something wrong with them. The people who actually see us that way (instead of the usual reaction to us, which is just "But how do you punish them?") are the same people who Alpha roll dogs and scruff them, and walk them on prong collars.
There is no correlation between some people disliking my principals, and my principals being worse. Just because there is an amount of people who don't like it does not mean that they are instantly right. By the same token, that doesn't mean I am necessarily right. That said, I really do not see why positive punishment and negative reinforcement is necessary. We already have one form of reinforcement and one form of punishment, we don't need two of each.

I never tried to dig at you or your methods, just the use of prong collars. Sorry if it came off differently, but you really don't need to bring that debate into this. I think we've probably already given the poster here a head ahce, so I'm backing out now.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

And, of course, you added in the whole running onto a road example. If you are only putting it on to train a dog using PR, the tool is not punishment. I suggest you go take a look at my clicker thread, where I posted about the difference between aversives and punishers.
Yes, the harness, if the dog pulls, is certainly an aversive. However, if it were punishment, the dog would not be pulling. That is why dogs pull. They learn to deal with the aversive. To them, it's not punishing.

Also, do you really think that because I don't yank on my dog's neck to teach him something that I am going to say, "Oh, my dog might run onto the road, but oh, I could never cause him a little pain!" I am a clicker trainer, not an idiot. Just because I don't use leash corrections does not mean I am going to walk a dog off leash in case he happens to pull a little and feel a tad amount of pain because of it.
If he's not stopping his pulling, it's not a punisher. If I'm stopping and calling him back when he pulls, he's never experiencing a punisher except for the negative when he realizes that pulling is not getting him anywhere.
The share a great quote, "You can break a man's rib giving him CPR, but that doesn't mean you condone breaking his ribs the rest of the time."
Just because if my dog lunges, he might feel a bit of pain, does not mean I am all fine and dandy to cause him pain as a training method. Further, what I do as training and what I might have to do in an emergency could differ greatly. If my dog's leash snapped next to a busy road, maybe I'd lunge and grab him around his body, which he could find very frightening. Does that mean I am the same as someone who trains using fear? No!
Yes, my dog might lunge and feel a bit of pain early on in training. That, my friend, is the whole point of using a harness, to minimize that pain.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My personal opinion is that if a prong collar is the tool that enables someone to get their dog out and about and have them under control and able to learn, then that is better than the alternative (having an out of control dog or keeping their dog at home because they don't know how to control them). At some point, this can become a quality of life issue. In my mind, that is one of the values of a prong collar. I knew someone who struggled with reactivity with their standard poodle for years but refused to use a prong collar and only would use a harness. Finally, they were open to working with a trainer I recommended but that trainer did want them to use a prong collar. Within a matter of months the dog is calm, the owner is confident and their bond has improved. 

When it comes to teaching actual obedience and rally behaviors, I personally don't like to rely on a tool like a prong collar because I just so happen to find enjoyment in training in a way that gives my dog as much choice and freedom possible. I just think it's fun. I find that this is empowering to the dog in a special sort of way and I find that I personally experience greater pride in teaching behaviors this way. I almost always train using a nylon-chain or leather-chain martingale. 

I think a lot of communication issues between balanced trainers and +R trainers could be solved by being open minded. A prong collar is not the abusive tool that some make it out to be. It can be used effectively with minimal issues. It can also result in fallout in some situations and, like most tools, it CAN be abused. I don't personally think that it should be a go-to tool for all dogs in all situations and I do think it's important to consider whether or not it's necessary in a given situation. Personally, for me, I would not think a green handler and green miniature poodle (unless totally out of control) would require this tool to teach rally - which can be taught off leash in your living room. But - that's just me. I stopped taking private lessons from a NOC placing judge because he wanted me to teach attention using a prong collar on a touch sensitive dog. Sorry, but that's just not how I do it, and I feel that one of the strongest aspects of my training with my dogs is their offered attention and focus. I respect what he does and obviously he has experienced great success, but it's not the only way, and I do think that it's important for everyone to know that they have a choice in how they train their dog. From there, I think that unless someone is choosing to abuse their dog, all of us, +R, balanced or somewhere in the middle, should be supportive of someone's desire to train, work with, and build a relationship with their dog.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I just got back from the dog park. We met one first-time couple with a GSD.

But the collar!!!! :ahhhhh:

Was a prong, not big enuf to encompass the neck, held together by some kind of a chain *large links* in a sort of Martingale. A brand new dog to me but I got close enuf to play with this collar a bit, to see what it was all about. 

A Martingale pinch collar... I gave up... I've never seen anything like it! :afraid: lol


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CB all pinch collars are styled more like martingales than anything else. That doesn't make it the right tool for a dog park, but doesn't mean it is not a proper pinch collar either.

CM I agree with all that you said. Not all tools are for all dogs or for all trainers. All tools have to be used properly and all users have to be trained in their correct use. The person who taught me how to properly introduce a dog to a pinch collar (or for that matter e collar) in a way that would allow its use to be be faded later on was none other than Ian Dunbar himself during a private conversation at a workshop he was giving. I had the chance to discuss some of my utility training problems and he gave me suggestions about corrections to help Lily understand her mistakes. We then went on to talk about tools like pinch and e collars.

LittleAussiePoodle I don't know you well enough to like or to dislike you. You clearly have formed opinions about me and drawn conclusions about my thinking without knowing me very well either. If you believe that I don't respect you then that is your perception. I will tell you once again that I don't disrespect your views even if we are (and are likely to remain) in disagreement. Clearly you will feel as you will feel. Your feelings are your responsibility. As I said earlier I think we will have to disagree even as you try and try and try to make me change my experientially based opinion. Talk all you like...


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> CB all pinch collars are styled more like martingales than anything else. That doesn't make it the right tool for a dog park, but doesn't mean it is not a proper pinch collar either.


Ahhh... I see. Maybe it was the amount of both tines and chain dangling that confused me. The poor girl looked like Mr. T. wearing stainless steel.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

There shouldn't be much dangling. Maybe it wasn't put on properly.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I know with absolute certainty that my dogs find the prong collars more comfortable than the harnesses I used to use. So it doesn't make sense to me for somebody to be criticizing the use of prong collars yet they themselves use a harness on their dogs....... fine if you don't believe in the use of ANY training tool but don't be critical of others when you are using a restrictive tool yourself on your dog.
Also, if you can train any dog regardless of breed or size using positive training only then honestly I admire and applaud you. The majority of dog owners though do not have the time, patience or knowledge to use this method only (and honestly I don't believe that all dogs respond to this method only) and if using a prong collar means they can now enjoy walking their dog.....and if it means that it keeps their dog from being surrendered to a shelter where there is a good chance it will be euthanized then I say the prong collar is a very useful tool!!
Everyone has a right to their own opinions and methods but it's important to keep an open mind.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

LittleAussiePoodle said:


> It would be interesting to see why the trainer thought you needed one. If your dog doesn't pull, I see no reason to get one. I would hate for a debate on the topic to pop up here, but I really don't think you need one, especially for Rally. And if the only reason turns out to be for her coat, then I am at a bit of a loss. Surely it creates just as much of a divot?
> I work with all of my dogs on harnesses. I find flat collars can cause damage if the dog starts and I strongly disagree with the use of tools designed to cause pain. I usually train my dog what to do first, so I've never had a problem with pulling on the harness.
> It seems odd that your trainer would suggest it. I would proceed with caution, and back out of the class if they start to suggest anything you are uncomfortable with. There is no need to use a prong collar for anything, but with Rally and a well mannered dog is seems like a trainer just suggesting a tool they like to use, rather than something you actually need.


I think when most people think of prong collars they think of a dog pulling on the leash with great strength and determination to chase a squirrel or just because it's headstrong and unruly. I really don't think that's what we're going to be doing - this is for small changes which means she won't be pulling hard on it.

And as Catherine mentioned - we are not allowed to use harnesses in competition so no reason to train with them. However I do agree with you - when you have a new dog that doesn't know how to walk and if it's pulling hard, especially little dogs, they can seriously damage their trachea so a good harness can come in handy early on for training. However I have read posts here on PF and on other sites where dogs have abraded their skin on the harness from pulling - so it's not always the answer either. Early one when she pulled, I walked her around in circles basically, redirecting her attention so she didn't pull.

And I most definitely would back out of a class. I left my first trainer because she did several things I felt was wrong, including something called puppy management (basic adult dog obedience class) where when she was showing us what to do, we had to have our dogs lie next to us and step on their leash leaving only 6" free - and she would yell at people to shorten that 6" till their dog's head was fairly close to the floor - I hated that and left. So yes, I will leave if I see something is not done fairly and safely for Babykins and I.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

Sounds good to me. I always did the whole changing direction whenever they pulled thing, and rewarding the moment they caught up and were beside me. I think one of the main issues with harnesses is that a lot of people think they can just put one on if their dog pulls. That's why so many people think they make dogs pull, and because the dog is able to pull harder in one. It's all a vicious circle. 
I used to have a harness that rubbed one of my dogs raw just from walking on a loose leash. I can't imagine what it would have done if he'd pulled in it. I think anything that doesn't fit correctly, is made from sharp/rough material, or that a dog pulls in will hurt it.

I'm glad you are willing to back out if they ask you to do things you don't like. It's surprising how many people think that dog trainers must know what they are doing, so I always try to push the idea of going with your gut.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Critterluvr said:


> Skylar I don't think a properly fitted prong collar is supposed to drop down at all.
> 
> I have found the prong collars to be a wonderful tool, when used properly. My two larger dogs are pullers and I have tried everything.... flat collars, halti's, slip collars and the no pull harnesses. The halti's are great but my dogs hate them, the harnesses worked at first but soon they were pulling with them as well, plus my dogs hated wearing them. After doing a lot of research I decided to try the prong collar..... it was like night and day, no more pulling!
> Also when we go to put them on for our walks our dogs are excited so this tells me they are not at all uncomfortable to wear.


Critterluvr, thank you for your response. I also had Babykins in a halti for a week - when I first got her I made a big mistake and in trying to get her to walk properly held my arm in their really weird position and strained it so badly that I couldn't dress myself for a week or drive the car - it was horrible, so I put a halti on her when I walked her until I healed. She hated it, really hated it even though I used lots of rewards to get her used to it. And as I mentioned in another response, I found lots of people who had to stop using harnesses because they cut into their dogs skin cause cuts and abrasions.............. so I think it's wonderful that there are choices and various ways to train your dog so you can find what works best for your dog. 

OTOH she is now happy to wear the prong collar around the house and has stopped biting it. Basically she ignores it. I don't have it attached to a leash yet - and I'll have the trainer check the fit and make sure I'm putting it on correctly.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think most people are hauling off and yanking their dogs prong collars until they're poking holes in their carotid arteries. I see a lot of people either misunderstand PR trainers or purposely "misunderstand" them. 

There are a few points: Of course, if there is no other way to train a dog and they can't go for a walk without a prong collar then by all means, use a prong collar. I used one on my Doberman for a time when he was such a powerful puller and then one day he turned 18 months old and started getting hormonal and he lunged at another dog. One or two times like that and his reactivity toward dogs escalated like you would not believe. I knew I could not continue using this tool because it was jabbing him just as he came near other dogs. So, I went to work on desensitizing him without that. (I did some push-ups to get stronger arms too. lol) 

What people do is keep on walking (aka: reward) when their dog is pulling. So they inadvertently _train_ their dog to pull when walking. To the dog's thinking, pulling is what you do in order to walk. It goes together. _Wanna walk? Then we've got to pull. _ 

It's as easy as falling off a log to train a dog not to pull on a leash, especially easy if the pulling doesn't get deeply entrenched because it's been rewarded. But it can be undone without too much trouble.

Let's get one thing straight right off. PR trainers don't train using no aversives. Of course we do. Not getting to walk when the dog makes the leash taut is an aversive...a disappointment, a frustration perhaps. What Pr trainers usually think is that using pain, discomfort or intimidation, or force to cause the dog to avoid something INSTEAD of setting up a situation so that the dog is working TOWARD something can have some undesirable side effects and isn't as effective or coupled with a more positive outcome. He's working toward something so much so, that the unwanted behavior won't work for him. But there's not something harsh or poky causing him to not do that unwanted behavior. It just for some strange reason, won't work. lol.

As far as a harness causing pain...of course it can. It can pull up or rub on their arm pits. I've had to air lift a dog to avoid him getting jumped on by a bigger dog. I know that was uncomfortable but I wasn't trying to teach him anything. It can pull against their chest if the dog is pulling, sometimes close to their neck depending on the harness. 

When I was training Matisse I didn't let him keep on with that pulling. I'd turn and coax him by patting my thigh, making squeaky silly noises, treat him, turn again before he got to the end of his leash. I stopped frequently and put a treat down by my shoe (staying near my shoe is where treats happen). I reinforced with a good treat very, very often...every 2 or 3 steps at first. I taught him to watch me when asked. (in the house, in the yard, then out on the side walk, then with some distractions) If he got himself where there was any tension in the leash, the walk stopped or we'd go back the same path we just took and come back again...same boring smells, sights etc. That all sounds like a lot of time, but we're talking 5 or 10 minutes every walk and maybe one or two 5 or 10 minute session another time during the day.

Sure you want to go for a real walk. But taking a little time to train will pay off in the end. I see the value in using some tool that prevents pulling in the mean time. But, if it causes pain or discomfort...say if the dog lunges or pulls, his good behavior will be happening because he doesn't want to have that pain. It's like "do this or else." I'm just saying I prefer to say, "do this and this wonderful thing will happen." 

Of course everyone has a right to their opinion. And that means on _both_ sides of a controversy. I like to try to explain things so it might help someone, not because I want to prove something. Like I said, I don't think anyone here is out to injure or hurt their dog. And I don't even think a prong collar is the worst if it's not jabbing too hard. It's pretty blunt tines and the dog is the one who's creating the poking situation so he must think all the time he's walking not to do that which causes the tines to poke him. That is on his mind a lot. I just prefer my dog to think in terms of what he can do to earn a reward rather than what he must do to avoid discomfort. And it's NOT that hard to train a dog not to pull. Just don't let pulling work in order to walk. Stop. Don't take one more step if the dog is pulling. Catch him *before* he gets a chance to pull and reward for nice walking. A constant concept in training: Prevention. (don't let the dog practice the unwanted behavior and be rewarded for it. ie: walking while pulling) Give an alternative. (show the dog what DOES work to walk) Reinforce. A LOT! Often. 
Highly tasty treats. Tiny. 

So yes, a harness can hurt a little bit. But the point is, it is not the pain that is being used to convey the message to the dog. Whatever discomfort it may cause is not the tool being used to train. It's a side effect of having to wear a collar or harness on city streets or unsafe areas. It is not being used to teach the dog to avoid pulling. Or shouldn't be. 

Here's a video of Matisse walking on a loose leash. And it's so loose, it's almost dragging on the ground. Ridiculous but that's what I did to show that a harness can be used to teach a dog to walk on a loose leash, something someone said wouldn't work because they thought harnesses encouraged pulling. No. Walking when the dog is pulling encourages pulling. It doesn't matter what they're wearing.

So it's up to you (OP) what kind of philosophy you prefer. Teach dog to avoid something he doesn't like. Or teach dog to work toward something he does like. I prefer the forward kind of moving over the held back kind of moving. Again, it is not hard to teach a dog, especially a poodle how to walk politely on a loose leash or how to heel, sit, pivot, turn left, right, jump or anything by means of motivation and reward and without using pain or avoidance. There are harder breeds to train. You just need to think _prevention_. And what is the motivator for the dog. What does the dog love? 








This is so long. If you read it all, you get a click and a Snickers.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

aasteapots said:


> I didn't bother to read past the first two protests but my two cents is that a prong collar is a very good training tool and as long as you are not dragging your dog around on it or using it for punishment of some sort you are not doing anything wrong by using a perfectly acceptable tool for training. Prong collars are better than a nylon or chain slip collar. Anyway that is my opinion. I use one with Coal because she needs it. It was given to me by the trainer.


Thanks for posting. I definitely won't be dragging my dog around with a choke collar on.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For my dogs harnesses are for car safety restraint mostly. I also have started them in tracking and they have specific harnesses for tracking. So the wearing of harnesses mean specific things to my dogs, just as wearing a certain collar or seeing me pull out a slip lead instead of a lead with a clip means something different to them. Skylar I understand how horrible that was for you to get hurt to the point of not being able to get dressed on your own. Many years ago BF's prior GSD (who weighed about 110 pounds) almost dislocated my shoulder when he lunged across a lawn to go sniff something. That dog was a sweet boy when you knew him, but wow did he lack in loose leash manners for me.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> This is so long. If you read it all, you get a click and a Snickers.


Ha ha, I'll take the click but I can't eat peanuts so no Snickers.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> For my dogs harnesses are for car safety restraint mostly. I also have started them in tracking and they have specific harnesses for tracking. So the wearing of harnesses mean specific things to my dogs, just as wearing a certain collar or seeing me pull out a slip lead instead of a lead with a clip means something different to them. Skylar I understand how horrible that was for you to get hurt to the point of not being able to get dressed on your own. Many years ago BF's prior GSD (who weighed about 110 pounds) almost dislocated my shoulder when he lunged across a lawn to go sniff something. That dog was a sweet boy when you knew him, but wow did he lack in loose leash manners for me.


Well I'm so glad I got a minipoo instead of the spoo that I really wanted. I can't even blame Babykins though because it wasn't her pulling on the leash, but my holding my arm in this weird unnatural position. Anyhow this was when I first got her.

OTOH one of my trainers had a serious injury to her shoulder and back muscles- requiring surgery because her gorgeous, gentle Great Dane decided to chase a squirrel while out of a walk and she was caught unprepared for the pull on the leash.

Edited to add - I'm glad you weren't seriously injured.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled I think you posted last while I was writing my last post. All of my dogs learned to walk loose leash on flat buckle or rolled leather collars or nylon martingales using the be a tree or you want to pull this way so we will go that way methods that you described. The bedrock of Javelin's training is all based on him learning that making offered eye contact with me makes great things happen, but as you know I also use pinch collars. I also recommend them to some (but most assuredly not all) of my students. When I do recommend them I have a protocol given to me by Ian Dunbar that I require for the introduction of the collar that will allow for its use to be faded over time.

My real point here is that I think there is a lot more that most of us agree about than that we disagree on. I also think that people who prefer +R need to understand that those of us who will use certain aversives are not people who beat our dogs into submission, but rather that we look for evidence to use tools in constructive ways. I do understand that there are punishments involved in PR training. For some dogs, not going for that morning walk is probably wildly disappointing and feels like punishment of the highest order to the dog, however I think it is unfair to be labeled as cruel or lacking in understanding because someone has drawn a different conclusion based on objective examination of evidence. If I had recommended a pinch collar for your dobe and seen it make him more reactive to other dogs I would certainly have dug deeper into the toolbox to find a different way that would have helped him better. One has to always look at how a method is working and be willing to change it if needed. If one approaches dog training scientifically one should always be examining the methods and tools available in an open minded and objective way.

And now for something completely different...This morning on Good Morning America they kicked off super bowl week with a cutesy story about the "puppy bowl." The story was really just a way to set up a bigger story that will be upcoming about pet rescue and adoption, an important cause of Lara Spencer. How about instead of continuing our age old debate about tools we get behind a really important idea promoted by Ian Dunbar among others which is to spread the word about effective puppy training that keeps dogs out of the stream of dogs (and cats) being cycled over and over through the huge industry of pet rescue? The real goal of 99% of pet rescue and adoption agencies should be to put themselves out of business, not to be perpetuating puppy mills by buying at their auctions to keep the sad cycle endlessly churning.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Skylar said:


> Well I'm so glad I got a minipoo instead of the spoo that I really wanted. I can't even blame Babykins though because it wasn't her pulling on the leash, but my holding my arm in this weird unnatural position. Anyhow this was when I first got her.
> 
> OTOH one of my trainers had a serious injury to her shoulder and back muscles- requiring surgery because her gorgeous, gentle Great Dane decided to chase a squirrel while out of a walk and she was caught unprepared for the pull on the leash.
> 
> Edited to add - I'm glad you weren't seriously injured.


Wow! That's terrible. When you have a dog that's the size of a pony, you probably need a halter or a bridal with at least a pelham bit. :act-up: 

My Doberman was an absolute :angel: during classes. But on one occasion, upon entering the outdoor ring that was where we had our agility class, he suddenly went from 0 to 60 in a heartbeat to go see another dog. He had never done quite that kind of thing. He was young but weighed 90 lbs by then. I was very strong and usually could control him fine but this was unexpected. Well... he didn't dislocate anything except my feet from the ground and I went over prone as a flounder. I was so embarrassed and so mad at him, I called him the F word loud enough for everyone to hear! Talk about great training, right? I was further embarrassed by my own behavior. And he looked positively like, _Wha???_

He never did a repeat of that again. I don't think he liked being called the f word one bit.

Anyhow, that dog became quite advanced in his learning and was a joy.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> I also think that people who prefer +R need to understand that those of us who will use certain aversives are not people who beat our dogs into submission,





> I think it is unfair to be labeled as cruel or lacking in understanding because someone has drawn a different conclusion based on objective examination of evidence.


I don't think I labeled anyone here as cruel and I also _specifically_ indicated that I didn't think anyone was causing great injury to their dog here at pf. 

The point of my post is that in my opinion most all dogs can be trained without using a prong or shock collar. I don't like them and I don't think they're necessary in almost all cases. And there are so many people who do put them on their dogs incorrectly or use them in foolish ways. (no one here at pf, but out and about I've seen it) If someone does like them and doesn't see their dog being shut down at all...and it allows them to take their dog for a walk and they don't want to train the dog or it takes too long or whatnot, that's great. Dogs love walks and they should get them as long as there's no pain involved. I know that once the dog learns that pulling will cause pain they learn fast not to pull and then don't receive that pain. So fine. I just think there are other ways to teach dogs because I've experienced it hundreds of times over. And with pr methods, poodles are the ultimate learning machine...if they're not held back. And certain aversives can hold them back. jmo. There have been studies.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

I would add that PR training, if you'd like to call it that, does employ punishment. I know it's been gone over, but I think it helps to put things into perspective. We all use punishment, every trainer. Some of us are just more extreme than others. I'm sure lily cd re here wouldn't, for example, hold a dog's head under water or hang it from a choke chain like some very severe trainers I've seen. 
We all have a point where we think the punishment has gone too far. Really, balance trainers and "PR trainers" are exactly the same, we just have our lines drawn at different points along the line of severity. Where a balance trainer might think it's okay to put a prong,or shock, or choke collar on a dog, I might see it as very cruel and unnecessary. In other ways, we are likely to train our dogs exactly the same.
If I was the one who came off as calling you cruel, which I suspect, that was not my intention. I am aware that punishment works, I just don't like the use of it to train new behaviour. I do not believe dogs to be capable of logical thought, and from what I have observed, dogs are very poor at connecting their own behaviour with punishment.
Therefore, I try to use negative punishment only when it's actually needed and clearly distinct from positive punishment (I think my leave it example shows this well), and never use the quadrants which involve adding or taking away something the dog dislikes.
My lines are simply drawn up before I reach that point, whereas those who do use those methods are not. I hope I did not imply that you beat your dogs into submission, for that was not my argument.
My point on dog training in general is that often, punishers are much more severe than people realise (or admit, in some cases). I think that positive punishment and negative reinforcement is unnecessary in dog training. Punishment has been proven to have bad side effects, and to slow learning. I base what I say on a lot of research, which tells me that while punishment does work and produces faster results (at least at first), I do not need or want to use it.

I agree with Poodlebeguiled, PF is very tame. I argue so hard because I see a lot of those trainers who wholeheartedly disagree with rewarding your dog with anything other than praise and whose only tool in "the toolbox" is to punish. We so often forget that there might be new dog owners reading. They can so easily misunderstand and believe that you are saying that prong collars are not intended to cause pain, and that they are fine for, say, training a sit.

I'm sure you train well and get the job done. For me though, if I have to resort to punishment, I know I am doing something wrong. I think you are right, and that we agree on a lot more than we disagree on, but this is one thing we don't.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> I am aware that punishment works, I just don't like the use of it to train new behaviour. I do not believe dogs to be capable of logical thought, and from what I have observed, dogs are very poor at connecting their own behaviour with punishment.
> Therefore, I try to use negative punishment only when it's actually needed and clearly distinct from positive punishment (I think my leave it example shows this well), and never use the quadrants which involve adding or taking away something the dog dislikes.


Good post. My sentiments exactly. I don't like to use PP even with a learned behavior. If the dog isn't doing it right, it's something I've done wrong and I need to analyze it better and set the dog up so he'll succeed. Punishing the dog is unfair because they don't think like we do...I do not believe that they are "blowing us off" as is so often an excuse. 

This quoted part of your post Aussie, is in particular... important. It is very disconcerting to me to see people...when I'm out on my walks, for instance or in a class I have attended at one time or another being harsh with their dog, jerking it's collar, scolding and the dog has no idea why. The dog is very likely (and I've said this many times on this forum) not aware of his own behavior at that time. So the punishment is very unfair and confusing. 

We need to remember that dogs can't read our minds and don't know what we mean half the time....EVEN if the dog has done the right behavior before. It _still _does not mean it's on stimulus control...that is, when there is no other possible thing going on at the same time that could cloud the dog's perception of what it is he's doing...IF he's doing anything in particular at all. (to his way of thinking) We tend to anthropomorphize wayyyyy too much. (I know I do in joking...like my dog didn't like being called the f word.) But seriously....here's the deal. Take a dog who's owner gives a collar correction because the dog is not walking nicely. The dog is also licking his lips, looking to the left, wagging his tail (or not, lol) and taking long strides. He may also be passing by a garbage can or a child riding his bike. Okay, so the dog gets a correction for not walking right. How is he suppose to know that it's his walking that's the culprit?_ Maybe I'm not suppose to wag my tail or look over there at that thing to the left. Maybe that kid sucks and every time a kid goes by, I'm going to get a prong stuck in my hair. _All kidding aside, dogs are not for quite some time _necessarily_ going to know what thing you mean. So until there are several reps, more or less for different dogs and the timing is absolutely perfect, a punishment can be bewildering and can erode to some degree the relationship between owner and dog. They have to sift through things and separate out the behavior you're wanting...and more than a few times. You hear, "My dog knows this behavior. She's done it before. She's just being a butt head and stubborn." She either doesn't have this behavior thoroughly on stimulus control OR she's has no reason to do it. She has not been reinforced sufficiently for it in the past. BRAT!!! But that is anthropomorphizing. Dogs are animals and that's just how the cookie crumbles.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *I don't think I labeled anyone here as cruel and I also specifically indicated that I didn't think anyone was causing great injury to their dog here at pf.*
> 
> The point of my post is that in my opinion most all dogs can be trained without using a prong or shock collar. I don't like them and I don't think they're necessary in almost all cases. And there are so many people who do put them on their dogs incorrectly or use them in foolish ways. (no one here at pf, but out and about I've seen it) If someone does like them and doesn't see their dog being shut down at all...and it allows them to take their dog for a walk and they don't want to train the dog or it takes too long or whatnot, that's great. Dogs love walks and they should get them as long as there's no pain involved. I know that once the dog learns that pulling will cause pain they learn fast not to pull and then don't receive that pain. So fine. I just think there are other ways to teach dogs because I've experienced it hundreds of times over. And with pr methods, poodles are the ultimate learning machine...if they're not held back. And certain aversives can hold them back. jmo. There have been studies.



I wasn't referring to you, but rather to a more general tone and some of the other replies here. I agree with you.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Good post. My sentiments exactly. I don't like to use PP even with a learned behavior. If the dog isn't doing it right, it's something I've done wrong and I need to analyze it better and set the dog up so he'll succeed. Punishing the dog is unfair because they don't think like we do...I do not believe that they are "blowing us off" as is so often an excuse.


I agree. I never use positive punishment, not even with learned behaviour. I phrased it like that because I feel at least if the dog has actually learnt it, it's less guesswork and fear for the animal, and to minimize ruffled feathers.
I always ask, "What are you teaching?" It's something that some people just can't answer. Are you teaching your dog not to be a aggressive by punishing him for growling, or are you just teaching him not to growl, or that you doing whatever it was that made him growl means pain is coming? That's an example we all know of here, I think, but it really applies to everything we teach our dogs.
An article on Karen Pryor's website had a nice view on it, which was that while punishing a dog for jumping will stop it from jumping, it's not because it taught the dog not the jump. The dog might just be afraid of people coming through the front door, with the side effect being that they no longer jump on those people. Teaching a dog to lay on a bed instead would also not be teaching the dog not to jump. It would be teaching the dog to go to a bed when people came through the door, with the side effect being that they no longer jump on those people.
Interesting article, I thought.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Prong collars, used properly, do not 'poke into the skin'. Used properly, they pinch skin.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> Prong collars, used properly, do not 'poke into the skin'. Used properly, they pinch skin.


I wouldn't really describe it as a pinch either since there are no parts that close against each other. The ends of the tines (which are blunt) put pressure where they touch. If one wants to understand further put a pinch collar around your arm and put pressure on it. I have done so and would describe the feeling as pressure, annoying yes, painful not to me and I have yanked on it pretty hard. None of my dogs has ever pulled hard enough to feel the strength of pressure that I have imposed on myself.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Quote by Lily cd re: 
"My real point here is that I think there is a lot more that most of us agree about than that we disagree on. I also think that people who prefer +R need to understand that those of us who will use certain aversives are not people who beat our dogs into submission, but rather that we look for evidence to use tools in constructive ways. I do understand that there are punishments involved in PR training. For some dogs, not going for that morning walk is probably wildly disappointing and feels like punishment of the highest order to the dog, however I think it is unfair to be labeled as cruel or lacking in understanding because someone has drawn a different conclusion based on objective examination of evidence. If I had recommended a pinch collar for your dobe and seen it make him more reactive to other dogs I would certainly have dug deeper into the toolbox to find a different way that would have helped him better. One has to always look at how a method is working and be willing to change it if needed. If one approaches dog training scientifically one should always be examining the methods and tools available in an open minded and objective way."

Yes, this is my point exactly. Dogs have individual personalities just like people and what works for one dog may not work for another..... sometimes you just have to step it up a notch or find a different training tool that works for that particular dog. I truly believe that the most effective tool is having an open mind.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> I wouldn't really describe it as a pinch either since there are no parts that close against each other. The ends of the tines (which are blunt) put pressure where they touch. If one wants to understand further put a pinch collar around your arm and put pressure on it. I have done so and would describe the feeling as pressure, annoying yes, painful not to me and I have yanked on it pretty hard. None of my dogs has ever pulled hard enough to feel the strength of pressure that I have imposed on myself.


Of course there are no parts that close against each other... 'cos they've got flabby skin of the neck in between them. Pinching... not poking. 

I'd be surprised if your arm has the same amount of loose skin as a dog's neck.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*Poke, prod, jab, stab, pinch...* Who the ______ cares? It's all discomfort at best. It's positive punishment. If that's one's tool preference in an _"opened"_ mind, go for it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

and negative reinforcement


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Neither of my poodles has a flabby neck.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)




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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *Poke, prod, jab, stab, pinch...* Who the ______ cares? It's all discomfort at best. It's positive punishment. If that's one's tool preference in an _"opened"_ mind, go for it.


Ahhhhh.... Now the bolds are coming back. 

I just knew that attitude is still around in PF. Not to mention denial of reality.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Go for it Cowboy! Hahahahaha!


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

I mean, it's not denial of reality. A prong collar uses positive punishment and negative reinforcement. You can say it's mild, or that it is just a bit of discomfort, and I won't argue with you over that, or the type of "discomfort" is employs, but surely you do understand that it's positive punishment and negative reinforcement?
It's not magic. I don't think you have a lack of understanding of the four quadrants of learning, so you must understand that, at least. I know you all like to fight about exactly how much it hurts, but I hope I misunderstood what you meant by that comment, because if not, I really don't know why you call yourself the open minded, or us the side of denial.
There is a difference between calling you out for poking holes in a dog's neck, and pointing out that it's using positive punishment. Positive punishment might be as simple as petting your dog on the head, if he doesn't like that. A simple fact was being pointed out, because your bickering over what type of "discomfort" it inflicts was childish at best.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Skylar said:


> Well she does sometimes pull when out walking and looking for the perfect potty spot when she is sniffing, but otherwise she doesn't pull. She walks loose leash walking on a daily basis and she is fairly good with heeling - she looks at me and watches me looking for changes. Believe me I've done tons of training to get to this point.
> 
> She's also fairly good being focused on me - and I've been testing this recently. We go to small dog social - lots of dogs running free in a room that she loves to play with. I can get her to come to me and focus 100% on me no matter that there are dogs running and bumping into her, barking and just the normal fun and chaos. What I had her do was sit and look at me in the face while I wildly waved my hands and her leash with the dog chaos going on - she focused on my face and of course got a treat reward and praise for great focus- I was actually very proud that she can do this now because at the beginning she was 100% focused on the other dogs. I know that we need to continue to work on that for both rally and agility.


And this:


> Babykins and I have earned: AKC CGC (Canine Good Community), CGCA (Canine Good Community Advanced) and TDI (Therapy Dog International)


This is quite impressive. It sounds like you have a great bond and working relationship together and some good skills well learned. Did you teach this using a prong collar?


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Skylar you are an amazing dog mom, and I have no doubt you will do what's best for you and Babykins. You seem informed enough to decide for yourself if your trainer's method has merit or not, and if you decide to go with the prong collar that you will use it responsibly. Have fun at your rally class and let us know how you and Babykins do, we start rally class next Saturday too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Caddy are all of you going to rally or just you with one of the girls? I hope whatever the answer that you have lots of fun.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Lily that's a good question which I don't have the answer to yet, there was only one spot open. The plan was to take both girls and DH was coming, but now I have to decide who goes. Dolly offers more attention and always has eyes on me, but Abbey is more solid on obedience at present. I work daily with the girls at home, both separately and together, but Dolly has missed the last two obedience classes because of her surgery. It will likely be a last minute decision, but DH will be coming with whoever I don't take because after the class there is an hour of rally practice for all members.


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## Bellesdad0417 (May 18, 2014)

Skylar said:


> For rally training, I purchased Babykins a Herm Sprenger Snap Prong Dog Collar 14 Inch with quick release. It came in the mail today. https://www.dog.com/item/herm-sprenger-snap-prong-dog-collar/100205/
> 
> I put it on her and she was trying to chew it. Even worse, it got caught and tangled in her fur - her neck and ear fur. I only had it on her for about five minutes and for most of that time I gave her a Kong treat to distract her from the collar.
> 
> ...


I have the same brand pinch collar but mine isn't quick release. The collar should fit so it's lightly in contact with the dogs neck. If fitted correctly there should be no way that their ear hair gets caught. Additionally if correctly fit the leash ring should stay in place on the back of there neck.

For instance my spoo (who is a big boy) only has 7 prongs in his collar.

And don't let anyone discourage you from using one I too believe that it is way better than a slip collar.


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