# Only positive reinforcement? Maybe not?



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

One of the trainers I've worked with posted a link on her FB page to this article about using positive reinforcement only. I thought it was very interesting.

When Did Balance Become A Dirty Word - Karma Performance


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Here is another perspective.
“Have to” vs “Want to?”
A particularly relevant quote:
"It’s a myth that adding corrections to your training will make your dogs more reliable in competition. Pay attention to what actually happens on trial day and this will become clear to you."


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

imo, balance is often seen as code for using punishment and positive only often means denial about some of what goes on in training - with trainers pointing fingers at each other.

if you start with collars and leashes and look at what they actually mean to the dog and the trainer, i hope no one is going to try to fool him/herself into thinking it involves positive reinforcement. out of the gate, colllars, leashes , halters, etc., involve restraints (negative reinforcement, in most cases), not rewards. in the right hands, they can result in a positive experience for both the dog and the trainer. in the wrong hands, they can mean disaster.

imo, the most important thing is not to be doctrinaire, but to be aware of what you are doing. do no harm, but prepare your dog to live in human society to the best you can so that no one ever questions your dog's right to be in society- and remember that, like people, dogs are not cookie cutter creatures. what works for one dog may not work for another. 

i'll leave it at that.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Those of us who know dogs well and have trained them and children know this. The writer is concerned with dogs. But all said is applicable to our children too. I have trained horses dogs and children. I was a scout leader for 30 years and trained young adults too. The "state of obedience" is visible in the young men and women who we have trained without _*correction! *_It is sad to see them in corrective institutions when it is too late.


"The state of obedience in this country is at an all-time dangerous low. This is not melodrama or exaggeration; it is tragic fact. There are more attacks, maulings and deaths due to dogs than ever before."

"A culture, quite frankly a cult, has risen. This cult believes that a dog should never be corrected for bad behavior and that a dog should live in a world without framework, boundaries or consequences. Living in this type of environment makes a dog hyper, hysterical, aggressive and unable to function out in the world."

"The mortal sin of PO is that it_ causes_ aggressive behavior. This comes from two base causes: an adrenalized mindset and an environment of no consequences."

"The issue of “no consequences” comes to the heart of the problem with PO. Every living organism on this planet has to learn there are boundaries…and that there are consequences for crossing those boundaries."

"The child raising theories of 30 years ago, “Never tell your child No.” were discredited and thrown out for developing a generation of spoiled self-centered brats."

"
So what do you get in a year or so of this kind of learning? You have an owner calling an instructor saying, “My 16 month old Berner has been going to class since he was a baby. I’m very proud to say that he has never heard the word No. I don’t understand why he bit my hand when I reached down to move his bone.”

Eric.:angel2:


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

This article angered me (and I was not in a good mood to begin with). I do positive reinforcement training with Maizie and that does not mean that I use a clicker for a marker (not that there's anything wrong with doing so), or that I don't give her any feedback. I say "yes" when she is correct and "ah ah" if she makes a mistake. She totally gets it and and doesn't suffer any adrenaline issues, nor do I worry she will become aggressive. This article is just absurd. I am so sick of the cult pushing NEGATIVE reinforcement training. The trainers at my dog park have gotten 98% of the people there to sign up for their training which involves electronic AND pinch collars. :angry: Why do negative reinforcement trainers always have Karma in their name??


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Right there with ya, zooeysmom. Misinformed attacks are frustrating, particularly when they can skate by and appear to make some sense on the surface.

How you train your dog depends on what you want out of your relationship.

The scientifically proven, positive methods for communication and relationship building with your dog are not at odds with expecting your dog to put forth their best effort and understand boundaries.

:alberteinstein:

I've used physical corrections in the past and found that they did not work well for me. Your milage may vary, but to discount or validate any training method based on the erroneous statements of one author (who makes bizarre and unfounded statements multiple times in this single piece) would be silly.

Figure out what you want from your dog and what your dog wants from you, set your goal(s), and work towards them as a team in a way that works for you.

Here is a blog post specifically replying to the article posted that addresses many of the points I would have gone on to make myself: When Did Balance Become A Dirty Word? Response

Some highlights:


> Any verbal correction or physical correction is punishment. This isn’t to equate “punishment” as a terrible, negative thing. *This is just a term used for two of the four quadrants of operant conditioning, which is a way of learning. Punishment is not a hateful shameful thing like the author is making it out to be in force-free circles, it’s a scientific term to describe a way of training a behavior.* Yes, we like to avoid it. No, it is not called it punishment to make traditional trainers feel bad.





> *Many FF trainers use a marker for when the dog isn’t doing what is wanted*. When learning a new behavior, I’ll have an “Oops!” so they know the offered behavior isn’t the one I’m seeking. Some FF trainers do not do this as it’s been suggested that the dog might be off-put by not getting the right behavior, I prefer to do so as my dog knows to try something else more quickly than if I wait and if they get frustrated I ask for something they know how to perform.





> *My dogs don’t growl at me when they have toys, they don’t growl or snap when I go to trim their nails, or when I go near their food because they want me near them when they have these things.* They think having me near them when they have food or toys or a nail clipper is fantastic. Chicken might magically appear next to them when they have these things when I come over, or maybe their favorite toy. Sometimes when I come over I’ll have a leash and ask if they want to go for a walk!
> 
> By telling the dog no and using punishment on the dog to cease the growling, in addition to removing the object they’re guarding. [...]* They learn that you don’t want them to growl, so they don’t. They bite.* You refused to let them communicate they were uncomfortable by growling, so they communicate in a way that they either cannot help or they believe may be more effective in trying to communicate with you.





> We as trainers and owners make a choice when working with our dogs. Personally I prefer to work with my dog in a non-aversive way that results in lower levels of stress. *I want them to want to work with me because doing so results in a positive experience for both of us, not [...] to have an aversive removed or to have the application of an aversive cease.*





> If a rebuttal on force-free training is going to be made and considered by force-free trainers it needs to be factual, whereas this came off as highly derogatory (“cult”?) and perpetuated stigma that isn’t based in actuality.


Some more links for further reading:
- Dog Training’s Latest Buzzword – “Balance”
- Reddit "review" of the article - I love Reddit! This is practically a sentence-by-sentence breakdown of the article's nonsense and logical fallacies.


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## Renai (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm curious about what people think about this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ssion-is-predicted-training-methods-and-breed



> While on the issue of dog training, one of the most practically significant findings found in this research has to do with the effect that the type of training has on a dog's risk of aggression. There have been a number of studies that have reported that training procedures based on punishment[4] can have negative consequences (click here[5] for an example). In this study the researchers defined such punitive training techniques as including things like physical punishment (hitting the dog), verbal punishment (shouting), electrical or citronella collars, choke chains and jerking on the leash, prong collars, water pistols, electric fences and so forth. Such punitive techniques apparently increase the risk of aggression in dogs. They are associated with a 2.9 times increased risk of aggression to family members, and a 2.2 times increased risk of aggression to unfamiliar people outside of the household.


Edit: Also, In 12 Terrible Dog Training Mistakes by Suzanne Hetts she outlines what research has found to be necessary for punishment to work and not be counter-productive, and it is DIFFICULT. Punishment must be perfectly immediate and consistent; the unwanted behavior can't be reinforced before the punishment occurs; you have to reinforce an alternate behavior at the same time; the punishment has to be perfectly minimal, if the punishment is too intense or too long it's counterproductive; the punishment has to stop as soon as the unwanted behavior stops; and you can't use the punishment too frequently, if it's not working within 3-5 tries than you're doing it wrong or it's ineffective.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

no offense to those angered by the first article, but some of you have not been here long and probably have not seen some of the seriously vitriolic stuff spewed by positive only proponents when someone made the mistake of mentioning training other than what they approved. the sad part was that those who were attacked mostly left pf and the opportunity to help them with their dogs was lost.

by the way, i did not notice the author of the first article supporting any of the methods mentioned in the article from psychology today. maybe i read too quickly.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

patk said:


> no offense to those angered by the first article, but some of you have not been here long and probably have not seen some of the seriously vitriolic stuff spewed by positive only proponents when someone made the mistake of mentioning training other than what they approved. the sad part was that those who were attacked mostly left pf and the opportunity to help them with their dogs was lost.


Just because some past users who may associated themselves with the straw man that is "positive only" training initiated personal attacks shouldn't mean that we can't have a constructive, rational debate and conversation here.

I would hope that we could all agree that the wellbeing of a dog and its family is more important than the particular training method(s) used. The different methods don't give you a guarantee but they do give you better or worse odds of working safely and effectively.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree there should be constructive conversation. but implying someone said something they did not say seems far from that. judyd did not post an article by someone supporting harsh physical treatment such as beating, yelling, jerking the dog around, etc. and we do have at least one member - though she only drops in occasionally these days - who used an electronic collar to train a rescued deaf dog so he could live a happy life in her household. i doubt she used the collar at the taser a human level and i would be sorry to find that anyone assumed that she did - or that she was abusive for using the collar.


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## Renai (Dec 29, 2015)

I don't mean to imply that's what the article was promoting, though most people do seem to think "collar pop" means "jerk around the dog by the neck," which matters even if that's not what they were told to do.

The way I see it, everyone should have a dog, but most people aren't very smart. Everyone needs to be educated on how to train dogs, but the education provided must be tailored to what most people are capable of - and capable of not misunderstanding. The article in the original post makes a lot of claims about "positive only"* causing aggression, but I've never seen any research supporting that. On the other hand, positive punishment gone wrong is linked with aggression, and it's *incredibly difficult* to get positive punishment right - even negative punishment (like a time out) can be extremely difficult to time right. The benefit to positive reinforcement is, as far as I've seen, that it doesn't go awry nearly as easily as punishment.

*PO seems like a straw man, because everyone I know that eschews positive punishment prefers positive reinforcement AND negative punishment as a pair - without negative punishment, the undesired behavior you're letting the dog practice can be positively reinforcing.

Edit: I want to be clear that I'm not passing judgement on anyone for how they train their dogs at this time. I don't know everything, I don't have all the answers, I can't even figure out how to get Copper to stop nipping my butt! I don't expect it to be any easier for anyone else. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately, just today I was thinking about it, whether a "No!" is really so bad, but with the stuff I've read, it's seems like punishment is risky business. Of course having a dog that is poorly behaved is also risky business.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think your clarification is extremely valuable and is what judyd was hoping for in the way of discussion. or judyd might tell me i am waaaay off base. in any case, i have to say that in all the time i have been here, i have never noticed any member really advocating physical or psychological harm as a way to train a dog. but there are degrees of difference in approaches, and i do believe much of that is based on personal experience - which is bound to vary if you accept that both people and dogs vary.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I posted this last night just before I went to sleep, so I'm just now seeing the responses. I'll start by saying, patk is spot on. I was hoping to have some sort of, well, balanced discussion. True believers on either side of any issue are often scary people. 

I confess up front that I'm not a positive only advocate, but I'll also confess that I'm working with the dogs I have now in a much different, more positive manner than any of the dogs I've had in the past. Much of that changed approach is due to what I've read here on PF. I'm using treats liberally, I'm reinforcing with lots of verbal enthusiasm, I'm not forcing the dogs physically into sits and downs, as was the custom forty years ago, when I trained my first dog. I've stopped using pinch collars in favor of head halters. I've lightened up in general.

However, I do think there's a place for coercion, as long as it isn't cruel. I still use the work "no!" I'm not reluctant to pry the dog's jaws apart and sweep out whatever he's chewing on if "drop it" fails, and I don't have a treat to trade. I still occasionally give medicine by pushing it down the dog's throat rather than hiding it in food, simply because it's quicker or more convenient.

Even here, though, there's a difference of opinion on what constitutes "cruel." I doubt many people would call me cruel for saying no or forcibly removing something dangerous from a dog's mouth, but... I have used shock collars, judiciously, on both Jazz and Blue. We have a three acre, unfenced meadow virtually outside our back door. With a few initial sessions with the shock collar, and a couple of refresher lessons, those frequently with just the "page," or vibrate, function, I now have two dogs who no longer wear the collars, who can run free over that whole area, play, chase each other, splash in the creek, and who still come when they're called. They don't necessarily come like bullets--they may stop to smell the roses or anything else that gets their attention--but that's fine with me. They do come to me eventually, not because they're afraid not to, but because I'm calling them. (During a formal, "front" recall, both of them come to me immediately and happily.) With a positive-only approach, I might eventually have gotten to this point, but maybe not (I invited a trainer I know to bring her dogs out to work in the meadow, and she confessed she wasn't confident of their recall in that sort of situation), but while we worked up to it, the dogs would have missed many, many happy off-leash outings.

My point is that balance to one person may seem seriously unbalanced to another. As long as the dogs are treated well overall, each trainer has to do what works for him or her. The goal for all of us is to have happy dogs that can live successfully in our human world, because it is our world, and in the end, they have to accommodate to us more than we have to accommodate to them.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

I SO agree with what you've just posted JudyD!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I agree with Eric and Judy. 

I use what the dogs needs at the time he/she needs it. 

My PWD... most of the time she is fabulous. There was a point in training where she would blow off her long sits and just get up and walk away. I could almost see her "swearing" at me for these exercises. She's going to do what she wants to do when she wants to do it. I did give "leash corrections" for that but certainly it was not necessary to go about yanking and abusing her. 
She also did dangerous door dashing and then hour-long galloping around the neighborhood as fast as she could, staying just out of reach! Yes, I did use an e-collar on a low setting on her, and it took a couple of corrections to stop her from even thinking about dashing out the door. She's strong and powerful and would just blast right through even if you held the door open a crack and had your leg blocking the opening! She is blissfully unaware of the "consequences" of being hit by a car (and thank goodness she wasn't, even with a few close calls that she had!). Her consequences became- man this collar makes me feel weird if I run out the door! Maybe not do that again! I think having a dog aware of consequences in this instance is appropriate and fair. 

Now? She's very reliable with doors and manners and I haven't "physically" corrected her (leash/collar corrections) for years! She's 6 now and a wonderful friend. 

I always provide treats at appropriate times- I "pay" my dogs for doing a good job. 

NOw, for Jack... all I ever have to say is NO! or uh-uh! and that's plenty correction for him. It's rare I have to correct him at all, either. No need to even touch or collar-correct or anything. He gets tons of positive reinforcements when he gets his jobs done. 

Darby the bichon has always been super duper easy peasy. Down stay? Ok. She's down and she will stay there foreverrrrrrrr until you release her. LOL. Sit? Wait? very very good girl. 

As for human kids, I do think correction IS necessary. I don't mean lets go on spanking and physically hurting our kids! Time outs, loss of privileges works just fine. I also have my kids do chores to earn there money- there is no allowance, and they are not just handed the newest latest and greatest toy, either. They earn it. 

DH had job "sensitivity" training a few years back, dealing with the "new generation" of workers. Seriously! They said these kids come out of college expecting their father's paycheck, their father's car, their father's boat, etc. He was told how to speak/not speak to these kids!! Parents have been bailing out their kids, giving them the best, latest and greatest without the kids having to do anything to earn it. It does a great disservice to those kids, in my opinion, to never strive for something, work hard for something, and it's just expected. 

This topic can be a can of worms, for sure. But I believe balance and fairness in raising dogs and kids, as well as encouraging them to work hard.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Ah, raising children. [I've just deleted my own "can of worms" here.  ]


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I think this topic will probably remain contentious for quite some time (not necessarily on PF, but in the dog training world). This is because every kind of trainer has success stories regardless of the type of training they use. Wether their dog responded to training because of an innate desire to please, hunger for snacks, fear, habit, or a combination of those four, no trainer will ever be able to say for certain because we can't read a dog's mind.

That said, Jasper will "work" solely for affection, but he did get a corrective knee/foot to the chest when he jumped on us, as well as a firm 'no'. When training, we use a combination of treats and praise, but when he's getting close to something he shouldn't, or teetering on bad behavior, a slightly raised voice saying "Jasper, NO" works 99% of the time. He desperately wants to make me happy.

Piper, on the other hand, needs correction. (and by correction I mean firm voice, physical relocation, and flicks to the nose - I don't hit or personally use shock/choke collars). She is not praise motivated in the slightest, and will only occasionally perform for very high quality treats. I'm still working on figuring out a method that works for both of us - it's a struggle.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I am not a PO advocate, I have to admit. I never hit my dogs, but I do correct them, in an appropriate manner as per their personality. I have a fearful dog, so I need to adjust to him. By correcting I mean a firm " No " and letting them know by my body language and tone that their behavior was inappropriate. It works. But I also praise, about 20-30 times more than I correct. So the correction is not a big deal to them. And when the dog is a little older, there is barely even a correction per month...

Also that's just a personal preference, but I don't like using treats very much. I like a dog who will work for me. Because I ask him, not because there will be food as a reward. I do agree that they help a lot, though, and should be used. I just prefer to work otherwise.

I agree with the baseline of the article, but not on every aspect. I agree that there is a need for balance.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I totally agree with Judy and a few others that have posted.....I am an advocate of positive reinforcement but not "positive reinforcement only". Every dog is different in personality and what works for one may not work for another. Some dogs may need a little more correction than another to enforce the desired behavior. (but I am not talking about collar jerking physical force)
My dog Millie has a very sweet "wants to please" personality and I only use positive reinforcement with her because honestly that is all she needs.

My dog Jasper is another story......he has a mind of his own and total positive reinforcement only just does not work on him.
I had to resort to an e collar to stop him from chasing my ponies. (Believe me I tried everything). Once he started there was absolutely NO stopping him and it was getting to be a dangerous situation. I researched the e collar thoroughly before using it, once I put it on him I only used the vibrate mode once he started chasing them and he stopped in his tracks. Never chased them again when he had that collar on. What a life saver!

I think a good successful trainer has an open mind and doesn't solely stick to any particular training method. Tailor made training to suit an individual dog's personality is what works.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This is an interesting and important discussion. One thing I don't think has been addressed here or in many other discussions on training methods is that training can't be one size fits all. What will work with one dog, may make another miserably uncooperative. Just like with students: auditory, visual, tactical learning styles, there are dogs with different tolerances and responses to different to different training modalities. This link was just shared by a member of my obedience club on our club's FB page. https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2015/03/16/why-im-not-a-force-free-trainer/ I think it is an excellent discussion of what defines force (different things for different dogs) as well as a way to look at balance in training.

Several posters here have drawn the analogy between training dogs and raising children. While children aren't puppies and adult dogs aren't really like four year olds, I do think there are points to be made in comparing them to each other and in how we raise them. First, can a person say they only used positive methods in raising their children if they never grabbed their young child's arm to keep him from danger? The strong impact of the grabbed arm and the loud NO made a lasting impression on your child that effectively decreased the likelihood he would try to touch the hot stove ever again, right? How is that a bad thing, anymore than giving a leash pop to keep your pup from going right up to the face of a strange dog a bad thing? The latter teaches the pup that strange dogs should not be approached without seeking permission. Next, I have to say that early in my teaching career I had numbers of students who I knew really benefited from my imposition of clear rules regarding attendance, work deadlines, methods of determining grades and the like. For many of these students their K-12 lives were fairly free ranging with no one home when they got home and them having to decide for themselves when and if to do homework what to eat after school, etc. They came from homes with two working parents and few rules. Having rules was frequently a welcome relief for them as they happily told me. Lastly many of you have read about some of the over the top poor behavior from more recent students. They come and go as they please, they talk back, they demand credit for work they never did and they believe that there will never be negative consequences for any of these behaviors. These students are the products of the never say no, never tell them they can't be anything they dream to me, never work for a thing you want went whining works faster school of thought. Their helicopter parents have handicapped them by guarding them against learning through consequences and from having to make decisions for themselves that might have unpleasant outcomes. They scare me just about as much as a +R only trained Akita that is charging at me and my poodles.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I agree with Eric and Judy.
> 
> I use what the dogs needs at the time he/she needs it.
> 
> ...


I agree with you very much.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Renai said:


> I'm curious about what people think about this article: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...ssion-is-predicted-training-methods-and-breed
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Also, In 12 Terrible Dog Training Mistakes by Suzanne Hetts she outlines what research has found to be necessary for punishment to work and not be counter-productive, and it is DIFFICULT. Punishment must be perfectly immediate and consistent; the unwanted behavior can't be reinforced before the punishment occurs; you have to reinforce an alternate behavior at the same time; the punishment has to be perfectly minimal, if the punishment is too intense or too long it's counterproductive; the punishment has to stop as soon as the unwanted behavior stops; and you can't use the punishment too frequently, if it's not working within 3-5 tries than you're doing it wrong or it's ineffective.



I have to come back to read these articles when I have more time, but I have to say that what you just described above is precisely how I teach my puppies the thing that many PR only folks fail to do - Not to eliminate in the house on the floors (many people complain that their puppies are great at getting the message where they want them to eliminate, but don't understand where they are NOT allowed to eliminate) and I must be doing it correctly because it has never taken more than 3-5 repetitions for any of my girls to have been perfectly housebroken, and then on to a happy life where only PR is necessary.
In fact, once I felt that Timi had enough PR under her belt (within a couple of days of her being home, she was actually going to the pad and fake peeing to try to earn more treats) I set her up to have accidents (playing with her when I knew she was full, a distance away from the pad) in order to get the perfectly timed corrections out of the way - and it worked - maybe 3 corrections and she has not had an accident since. But she still gets a treat once or twice a day for using the pad, because why not remind her that I really like that.

But I do think that correction is often misunderstood by the average person - I think that when you say that word, most people will have one thing that pops into their mind - which could be anything from using a stern tone of voice to beating the dog, which of course is very wrong. In my opinion, correction is just enough to make the dog stop and take notice that you are very displeased with what they are currently doing, and absolutely no more, and what it takes to achieve that with any individual dog is going to vary widely and and needs to be tailored specifically to each individual. Which is not something that an inexperienced dog owner is likely to be able to asses and carry through correctly....


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> But I do think that correction is often misunderstood by the average person - I think that when you say that word, most people will have one thing that pops into their mind - which could be anything from using a stern tone of voice to beating the dog, which of course is very wrong. In my opinion, correction is just enough to make the dog stop and take notice that you are very displeased with what they are currently doing, and absolutely no more, and what it takes to achieve that with any individual dog is going to vary widely and and needs to be tailored specifically to each individual. Which is not something that an inexperienced dog owner is likely to be able to asses and carry through correctly....



I agree with this statement 100 percent!


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Just wanted to say I totally agree with you JudyD, patk, eric... 

I'm not fond of 100% PR training. In a world with no consequences you get to make dangerous choices. I train Mira almost everyday, I use plenty of treats and praise... but if she does something bad? Jumps on my guests and doesn't leave them alone for attention? I use a stern voice, if that doesn't work then a time out. If she keeps pestering them? A stomp on the floor and she will immediately back up. I'm not "beating" her or anything, I'm correcting inappropriate behaviors which I feel are crucial to live in our human world.

When she was younger I "corrected" her and used my voice, physically picked her up and put her outside if she had an accident. When she was 12 weeks old we left the house for about 3 hours and she was left to roam. When we came back she was napping, no accidents or chewed up valuables, nothing. It only took until 5 months to stop crating her.

MollyMuiMa just opened up a thread "Test Your Dog". Every dog is clearly different from one another. They each require a specific type of training to suit their needs.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

I hope I didn't come across as arguing that JudyD is not training her dogs in a safe, kind, respectful way or that I advocate a training approach that doesn't utilize "punishment". At the time that I made my first two posts JudyD hadn't done anything other than post the article so I was responding to my disagreements with the article and not the poster. :act-up:

I think that definitions are the crux of this (very important) discussion.

To me, *balanced training* _should_ mean a form of training that utilizes operant conditioning to increase the likelihood and frequency of desired behavior and eliminate undesired behavior using an appropriate combination of positive and negative reinforcers. When I say *force-free training* I mean the same thing but attempt to emphasize the fact that I believe that effective training is based on always giving the trainee a choice; the "right" choice is made desirable using operant conditioning. *There is no such thing as positive-only training.*

I'm right there with you in advocating a "balanced" approach as long was we are talking about punishment using the psychological definition ("_any change that occurs after a behavior that reduces the likelihood that that behavior will occur again in the future_" [source]) and not some other form of "punishment" that is used to instill fear based on some farcical version of Cesar Millan-styled "dominance". 

There is ample, well-controlled evidence that you do not get 100% compliance with any training method in humans, chimpanzees, or dogs. The goal should not be to have complete control over your dog (because that is not a realistic goal) but rather to teach your dog a dog that, when faced with a choice, the choice you want them to make is also the one that _they_ want to make. There is strong evidence that this is more easily accomplished in dogs using an approach that emphasizes positive associations.

Punishment is not ruled out in positive or force-free training. It is not a bad thing. It is not something to be afraid of or feel guilty about. Other posters have correctly noted that the average person using "punishment" over-corrects (ex. by using a leash yank when a well-conditioned "no," "look at me" or cuing of an incompatible behavior would have sufficed) because they misunderstand what punishment is, when it should be used, and what it should accomplish.

Trainers using positive methods shirk away from the term "balanced" because it is so often used to advocate the use of excessive force in training and/or advocated based on a misunderstanding of the way operant conditioning works.

The article posted is based on a misunderstanding of positive training. The author of the article is advocating "balanced training" as though it is opposed to training using positive methods, which makes no sense from a logical standpoint and it is thus a poor argument against force-free training. It does make it easy to argue against so-called "positive only" training, but nobody that knows the first thing about psychology would argue that any training is PO. The "When did balance become a dirty word?" article is an outstanding example of a straw-man argument (What is a straw man argument?).

If your trainer is not teaching you how to properly utilize punishment (in the scientific context and not the common context) you should get a better trainer just as quickly as if your trainer advocated a shock collar as the first plan of attack for teaching a recall. Both show an equally abysmal misunderstanding of the modern understanding of learning.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

sophie anne, I'm in no way offended. I posted the link in hopes that we'd have a civil discussion with additional information and a number of different viewpoints, and that's what has happened. Thanks for participating. (If only our current political discourse were as civil...)


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I agree each dog is different to a point. I praise and treat my dogs for doing good, and what I taught them. If they do not I use a stern voice, and NO. What straightens Cayenne out quickly is setting her in a corner, she hates that, and learns quickly. 

I trained them to go back to the carpet and sit when I open the door, as they are small and I live next to a high traffic road, that was trained at the same time of house breaking.

I have never jerked, a dog, I have flipped their nose, for biting to hard.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Glorybee, of course there are core similarities in all dogs. Otherwise there would be no way to train any of them, right? What I think you are saying and is fundamental for everyone to recognize is that they have personalities that differ as much as ours and that being dogmatic about one method to the exclusion of all else makes no more sense in training dogs than it does in teaching children, or for that matter adults.


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## Renai (Dec 29, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> In my opinion, correction is just enough to make the dog stop and take notice that you are very displeased with what they are currently doing, and absolutely no more, and what it takes to achieve that with any individual dog is going to vary widely and and needs to be tailored specifically to each individual.


What's funny is I had a malamute-mix that was as tough as they come, and I basically used as close to PO with her as I could, because positive punishment with her was not a good idea. She was smart enough to judge people and to understand that training is always a two-way street, a negotiation, and she was independent enough to just decide people were not interesting to her, if I tried to punish her she would have simply decided that I was not her human. What eventually happened was that we developed a mutual respect, where she knew that sometimes she'd have to do what I wanted and in return I'd let her have her way sometimes (when it wasn't too inconvenient or dangerous). It's amazing how different dogs can be! She was definitely a life-changer.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Glorybee, of course there are core similarities in all dogs. Otherwise there would be no way to train any of them, right? What I think you are saying and is fundamental for everyone to recognize is that they have personalities that differ as much as ours and that being dogmatic about one method to the exclusion of all else makes no more sense in training dogs than it does in teaching children, or for that matter adults.


I agree what I noticed in all the dogs using the same training, is how some learn immediately, and some take some time. Also, how once trained to not do something Bella does not forget, Cayenne is head strong, and will slide back if I am not careful. As the previous owner told me she is a bully, Bella is submissive, or I should say was with Cayenne until about 3 months ago, now Bella holds her own. So I think the personality difference had a lot to do with how extensive the training need be.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I have only used positive training methods with Abbey, lots of treats etc, but that's not to say I haven't yelled "NO, LEAVE IT" at the top of my lungs when she's attempted to steal food off the counter. Other times there's a definite tone to my voice that she recognizes to mean I'm serious, but hitting or yanking her is never an option for me. I must admit with my last puppy (many years ago) I went to obedience classes which used chokers, pops etc but times and opinions on what works has changed since then. When he jumped up on us we were told to bring our knee up, it worked, that is something we haven't done to Abbey and she continues to jump on people. Not everyone and rarely on me, but she still does to dh and others when excited. It's a dangerous thing for a 50 lb dog to be doing especially if someone is unsteady on their feet or caught unaware, so recently I've been considering trying the knee. Other suggestions would be very welcome, we've done all the ignor, turn around, walk away and not give her attention until she settles. I definite agree there can be a happy medium and different dogs respond differently to specific training methods.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Caddy said:


> I have only used positive training methods with Abbey, lots of treats etc, but that's not to say I haven't yelled "NO, LEAVE IT" at the top of my lungs when she's attempted to steal food off the counter. Other times there's a definite tone to my voice that she recognizes to mean I'm serious, but hitting or yanking her is never an option for me. I must admit with my last puppy (many years ago) I went to obedience classes which used chokers, pops etc but times and opinions on what works has changed since then. When he jumped up on us we were told to bring our knee up, it worked, that is something we haven't done to Abbey and she continues to jump on people. Not everyone and rarely on me, but she still does to dh and others when excited. It's a dangerous thing for a 50 lb dog to be doing especially if someone is unsteady on their feet or caught unaware, so recently I've been considering trying the knee. Other suggestions would be very welcome, we've done all the ignor, turn around, walk away and not give her attention until she settles. I definite agree there can be a happy medium and different dogs respond differently to specific training methods.


With my toys, I have stopped the jumping up, by being barefooted, and when they jump I put my foot on theirs not hard and say down, and treat. When they get excited or some times want guest to pick them up and start to put their feet on someones leg is say down, they back up and go down. When I was a kid, I used the knee, but grandmother told me to put my foot one top of theirs (they were large dogs), so I have always use my foot with the small ones. Maybe I did it 6 times or so on each dog.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i have used my knee to keep a very high energy young border collie at the park from jumping on me, but not by thrusting it at the dog. just lift to your chest and use as a passive barrier that breaks the weight of the dog as it jumps; the added distance from your chest keeps it from slamming you. i have to say the bc had been jumping on me for several visits (yes, the owner was hopeless) when i finally decided on the raised knee. she never did it again. she just found it was not rewarding any more to jump on me.


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## Khaleesiandthepoms (Feb 25, 2014)

Its so nice to see after a while away this is a conversation CAN be had civilly! It wasn't last time I spoke on this. I use PR a lot in training BUT not in favor of purely 100% positive reinforcement (sometimes a dog needs to know something is dangerous or a terrible idea, scare or startlement like the way dogs are taught rattlers are bad are a good way to say don't do that), that said I've never had to physically strike my dog to get what I wanted just in case anyone takes what I've said and misconstrues it! Loving the thread!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I read both of those essays last week. So long as you are getting the results you want, achieving your goals, and have a positive working relationship with your dog, who cares if you use corrections or choose not to train with corrections? Seriously. I very confidently feel that it is possible to reach the same level of success with or without corrections. I also feel that both training camps - positive reinforcement based and balanced trainers - are VALID. There are multiple paths that can be taken to the same place and I don't feel that one is more "right" than another. Train the dog in front of you. Training philosophies have become somewhat of a religion for many people and there is a lack of tolerance for trainers with differing views.

I have equal respect for trainers who choose to train without any corrections as I have for trainers who do incorporate corrections. I also have multiple trainers that I admire who fall into both camps.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

*Really, really bad day (looong post)*

Okay, I'm going to share what happened yesterday, both because this seems like the appropriate place, and in hopes of getting some PF comfort. Many of you know that Blue started showing dog aggression (definitely not leash reactivity) well before he was a year old. Otherwise his temperament is nearly perfect. We engaged the services of a behaviorist when he was ten months old and spent three or four months working with her, using counter-conditioning, lots of treats, gradual exposure to other dogs, head halter rather than pinch collar, etc., nothing harsh in the least, basic +R. It's been nearly a year, we've continued working with him diligently, and I thought we had made good progress. Sadly not the case.

Yesterday, for the first time in a couple of weeks, we took the dogs to the county park where we've been walking for exercise, working on this problem whenever we encounter walkers with other dogs. We had just gotten the dogs out and leashed when I saw a couple with a small, maybe pug-sized dog walk up to a car about 20 or 30 feet away. Blue yipped a bit, so I started treating and he sat quietly eating treats. The man disappeared around the car with the dog, the woman with him opened the passenger door on our side, so I thought they were getting ready to leave. I turned to go with Rich and Jazz. The man stepped back around the car with the dog right at his feet, Blue saw them, and in one millisecond jerked the leash out of my hand and went for him. 

Make no mistake. This was a full-out, aggressive attack. Completely ignoring my shouts, Blue ran up on the dog, legs stiff, head down, snarling. The owner kicked him, he wheeled and raced back to me with his tail tucked, yipping. I apologized profusely to the man, who didn't seem to be angry (believe me, he had every right to be). I was furious with Blue and just as angry with myself for letting my attention shift too soon. As we walked away, Blue was quite subdued--not cowed, no trembling or cowering at all, didn't seem to be physically hurt--but he walked quietly and very close to my side. 

There's a big dog park there, with a gated entry into a small safety area, then another gate into the main dog park. Three people were inside, with three or four big dogs ( maybe youngish Great Danes, or Dane/Lab mixes, hard to tell) milling around in the park. We walked along the path past it, Blue continuing to walk quietly. He glanced at the dogs a few times, but a gentle twitch on the leash and the word "no" refocused him nicely. I thought we were okay, until three of the dogs pushed through both gates (apparently neither of the gates was actually latched) and came at us. They weren't aggressive, but they were circling us, intent on approaching, and their owners had no control over them. Given Blue's behavior at the car, there was every chance we were going to have a huge dogfight right there, so I started yelling at the top of my voice, stomping my feet, and waving the end of the leash. Rich did the same. I still had an overload of adrenalin and anger from before, so I'm sure I looked like a maniac, but if all those dogs had fought, nobody could have broken it up, and there would have been injuries.

Surprisingly, throughout this whole episode, Blue stood quietly, slightly behind me, never made a sound or a false move. The other dogs were herded away by their owners, I apologized for reacting so loudly, explained that my dog might fight, and we skulked away again, went back to the car and came home.

I'm not sure what my point is. Partly it's to vent in a safe place. Partly it's to question whether positive reinforcement has any value at all. I'm far more discouraged than I've been since this started. I feel like we've wasted all our time and effort with absolutely no reward. It appears that one swift kick in the ribs did more to change Blue's worldview than nearly a year of consistent kind-and-gentle. I realize it's very likely just a short-term correction, I understand it could conceivably do more harm than good, but at this point, I'm almost glad it happened, and that's my frustration talking. I'd never in a million years kick my dogs, but I'm pushed to the point that I'm glad someone else did.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First off I am so sorry you had such an alarming set of issues all on one day! I am sure it was very scary on multiple levels for you, DH, your dogs and the other dogs and people.

I am going to say that I think this has perhaps a lesson that +R by itself isn't enough for all dogs or for all behavioral issues. As I said elsewhere this morning I have behavior management issues I deal with with Lily as regards her behavior towards the boys around the house. The other day I noticed that she was starting to try to control access to being near me on the couch, not acceptable missy! She was standing on the sofa near me trying to block Javelin from getting up. I took her firmly by the scruff of the neck and pushed her onto the floor and into a drop. I held her there for a few seconds and very sternly said no and least when I let her look towards Javelin. Once she offered me eye contact I let go of her. She has been very accommodating of Peeves and Javelin on the living room furniture since then. I am now using +R techniques to reinforce her good behavior, but will give her a correction the next time I see her acting badly again.

Don't lose heart JudyD! Adjust your techniques and you will succeed.

The rest of this is a reply to an earlier post about +R only and performance sports. It is certainly important for a performance dog to feel confident and happy in a trial ring. I am working very hard right now to rehabilitate Lily's utility work. The last few times we entered were really bad. I have been able to work with an OTCh handler for private lessons and also have a multiple time OTCh handler who trains in my open and utility classes. Both of these handlers have commented that part of Lily's problem is that she quits working when she is wrong because she doesn't understand what was supposed to happen but that she knew something was wrong because I was clearly projecting disappointment (oopsie, sorry girl I know you were trying from me) without clear direction/correction to her when she was wrong. It left her thinking she had choices about what to do and thinking it was ok to wander off and try to get the judge or a steward to pet her for consolation. Both of these wildly successful trainers have told me in no uncertain terms to not just make her think the utility routine and being successful at it was the most fun she could have with me (+R) but also to impose instructive consequences when she makes mistakes. If she wanders away I go get her by the collar and physically put her back where she belongs. How forceful that is is her decision she can dig her feet in and get dragged or she can come willingly back to work. If she is supposed to be waiting attentively at heel she is expected to default to looking at me and her gaze wanders to something other than direct eye contact with me I give her a tap on the head and tell her to leave it and look. I have every expectation that we will earn a UD in 2016 but it isn't going to be because I continued to do as I had been and just being all sweetness and light for things she did that were good while ignoring or excusing her mistakes and poor choices once she understood what she was supposed to be doing (which she has understood for a long time, she has Qd all of the exercises in trials more than once). For me to make that level of correction for either of my boys, neither of whom understands those exercises would be innately and terribly unfair, but once they get it there do have to be noncompliance consequences followed by a reward for doing it right the next time without wondering if there was a choice.

And Khaleesi you are so right that this has been a very wonderful conversation because everyone has been speaking from a thinking perspective. This is the best kind of debate where evidence is offered to support positions and people can be evaluative of good information and make useful changes for how they train as a result.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

judyd, sorry to hear what happened, glad your husband was with you and you did not have to face this alone. i don't think we know yet whether the kick to blue has jolted him out of dog aggression. you'll have to let us know. but i also don't think you wasted your time trying to find a way that did not use force. i am with sophia yin, who was a strong proponent of positive methods, but not a fool. she said that if it would save a dog's life, she would use an e collar, and i do tend to think that is where the line should normally be drawn. the thing is that you can't know if positive reinforcement will bring the desired results till you try it. you've tried it. for a year. it didn't have a definitive effect where you felt you could lower your guard when other dogs were around. now you will find out if punishment works. it may or may not. 

if punishment works, i don't believe that's an argument for starting off with punishment. trying the gentlest way first makes sense to me. but i do accept that different dogs may require different approaches. i tend to believe blue spent the whole rest of the time going home mulling what had just happened. poodles are supposed to be thinking dogs, after all.

be of good cheer. something good may come out of something worrisome.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Catherine and patk, thanks for your kind responses. I don't expect Blue to become nonaggressive overnight because of one encounter with somebody bigger and badder than him, but it's clear I do need to change how I'm handling him. I'm reluctant to meet aggression with aggression, but if I'm, I dunno, calmly assertive? That doesn't mean I'm going to start kicking him--the wall, maybe, but not Blue--but taking him by the scruff and gently shaking him? 

I think you're right, patk, about a thinking dog. It was interesting to see his behavior change. It wasn't only that he was perfectly well behaved while I acted like a frenzied madwoman outside the dog park. He usually reacts with loud, angry barking when he sees dogs from his crate in the car. On the way home yesterday, we passed several dogs with virtually no response from Blue. He whimpered once, otherwise lay quietly in his crate. 

Rich and I have kicked around (sorry, I couldn't resist) the possibility that Blue feels he has to protect us in some way. I've dismissed that in the past, because he never resource guards anything. He's calm and well-mannered at the groomer's, even though she has lots of other dogs around (all crated.) He's submissive to Jazz, although he will come and insist on being petted if she is. He loves dogless people, never acts out toward humans. Perhaps when I acted aggressive toward the big dogs, he decided I could handle it? Doesn't make sense from a normal dog perspective, though--you'd think he'd jump right in and try to help.

In any event, I feel slightly better than I did yesterday. I love this dog, but having to be constantly hypervigilant when we're out is wearing


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## Khaleesiandthepoms (Feb 25, 2014)

I totally get what you mean JudyD that sounds like a nerve wrecking and frustrating experience. I'm firmly in the camp of train according to the dog's personality. I'd love to just persuade all dogs with love and treats and affection and really this is what I do with 90% of my training clients, most dogs are "negotiators" meaning "okay that sounds like a better option, I'm listening" and you can show them yes this is what I want and here's what you get when you do good. But I also have another group, the 10% that owners call me when all other trainers have failed, I'm talking "hey lady there is NOTHING, I mean NOTHING you can do to convince me not to do that" that tends to be because *the reward is the action, some dogs just love to fight, love to kill things, love to steal poisonous or harmful things to eat, love to chase cars etc.* all behaviors that can really get them hurt or someone else. 

I've trained dogs for CGC, agility and trick training and behavior solving and again most dogs LOVE to work for positive stimuli and love to listen when they know what you want but some just don't. BUT I also know these worst case dogs tend to have one thing in common, easily stimulated and NEEDS some pleasure given and a release from the energy they would expel from doing the bad thing
For these dogs I have to modify training to use some level of aversion, what will scare him? Or startle him? What will allow him/her to realize this is a bad idea? And after that what can I show him that will STILL meet that need to burn energy and trigger the pleasure they used to get from that activity?

I'd like to share a training story I have that is an example of what is a balanced training w me, when I have dogs that are not the average case, worst case scenarios really.

I knew a woman who had a Corgi, she lived a few houses down from me, every morning and every evening I walked my pack of 6 past their house, that corgi would come tearing across the lawn, barking, snarling and losing its mind at the fence and my dogs never even looked at her, and her owner would come out asking, begging, pleading for her to stop and at the same time the dog would get so frustrated she'd redirect on the owner, flying at her biting her and ripping up her ankles and the lady would yell and get bloodied up, I'm not sure why this poor lady wore capris all the time when she was constantly wounded from the dog trying to maul her, she was so scarred from the encounters. This went on for months like clockwork, I did not offer training advise as I've learned most people get incredibly offended when they have dogs with major issues and you are only offering help.

Finally she asked and explained the dog had bitten her daughter in the face for refusing to give the dog some of her cookie, I came over and before long I saw their little one playing on the floor with some legos and the dog sitting, well standing over the legos and snarling staring the girl down, who was probably about 5. One wrong move and that dog made it clear she was going to rip up that little one's hand, ears up, tail up, braced forward, this was a dog confident in her nastiness and felt the need to put that girl in her place that little girl looked terrified and called her mom scared to move. Grandma sat in the chair with little concern to the situation and told the girl to let the dog have the legos when it was obvious that girl moved at all that dog was going to launch herself at her and bite. I explained this since I was tired of this Texas gunshow standoff, the dog came for ME then when she finally noticed me. I very quickly subdued her just by grabbing the scruff of her neck and holding her up she screamed as though I was murdering her, outraged someone would have the nerve to stand up to her. I let her go when she stopped and she looked shocked and confused but found a corner to sit in. Mom was shocked beyond belief and explained no one had ever been able to stop Cleo from bothering the child and she followed the girl around harassing her. I explained my actions were just an emergency solution that I did not advise they try but if they like I can assess her for some training solutions. During this believe it or not Cleo came over, sniffed me and put her paws on me for attention, I only said "hey" in a fairly low voice and she took her paws down and I continued to ignore her, but within a half hour Cleo sat and waited for me to acknowledge her with soft sweet eyes and no paws on me. I petted her when her body language was good and we even learned the touch command in a few minutes. 

I let them know Cleo was a VERY smart and confident dog that needed a patient and firm hand, because she was ALSO a dog easily aroused, that combined with confidence made her feel like she ran the house and what she had chosen for an outlet was good. She lacked boundaries or instruction as to how to channel her energy. I also warned Cleo's attacks rested solely in "hind brain" mode, that's when dog's just stop listening and are nothing but adrenaline and fight, often a "snap out of it!" moment has to happen to make an animal stop/any animal (think lion mauling someone, shouting isn't going to help if anything you are going to excite them further and an attack will definitely continue, unpleasant stimuli is your only hope). 

Grandma was more concerned with the fact that I had scruffed Cleo and made it clear she didn't like me or what I had done, DESPITE that Cleo till the day she died did not EVER again moved to bite me or the child. 
We started with PR techniques just for me to gauge her learning style and if she needed any aversion at all. She proved she did, believing no consequences for biting others outside of the family. I began to use an airhorn to startle her when she would go in for an attack and we worked on appropriate responses for when she was stimulated. 
Grandma ended up persuading the mother Cleo was being bullied by me and I was dropped from training the dog. They used a great trainer I love in this area I live in who's purely positive reinforcement, Cleo did SO well and I wasn't surprised when she completely CGC and service dog training! Well fast forward to 2 years Cleo was at a nursing home visiting and attacked an elderly woman in a walker when she walked by her. And this is how I got approached to train Cleo again.

I really think Cleo failed due to one thing after speaking w the family and trainer, the trainer tried to change what was natural to Cleo's personality (high energy and high arousal) and suppress any aroused reaction. I didn't suppress it, I redirected it.

We started where I left off and grandma was no longer allowed to protest or impede training, Cleo learned STEP ONE: ADVERSION, redirecting on people or other animals is NEVER OKAY and will earn you a scary sounding airhorn or cold water super soaker right in the face, that's snapping the brain out of that mode so we can go to step TWO (and you MUST go to step two otherwise you are only suppressing that action you stopped/delaying it): to rouse her into redirecting her aggression into grabbing her tugtoy and destroying it (I call the game "Kill, kill, kill" lol or what I call "take a lap!" which causes Cleo to spin, spin, spin and spinnnnnnn until I say stop), those moments burn energy and pull a dog out of hindbrain activity NATURALLY BY MEETING THE DOG'S NEED TO EXPEL THAT FORCE so they can go back into "thinking" mode, destroying her energy and arousal instead of people's hands and ankles. Cleo hasn't bitten a soul in 8 years but she does "take a lap" voluntarily when someone is too excited around her.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk well said about the time spent doing +R not being wasted time. It did make sense to start and it clearly was worth investing time in seeing how he would do with it. Thinking about this more while reading your post and JudyD's reply gave me reminders of something that happened with Lily when she was young. She has always been a big one for jumping up on people but I have taught her that she can't do it unless she is invited. Looking back her first lessons on this didn't come from me or BF but rather from Peeves' breeder. We went there for a cookout when Lily and Peeves were adolescents. Lily ran straight over to Sue and jumped up at her and got a knee in the chest in reply. She tried to jump on her one other time that day and saw the knee come up and redirected herself. Later BF also used physical deterrence to stop her from jumping up on him and she learned her lesson very quickly.

JudyD I know how it feels to have a dog that is a handful to handle around other dogs. Peeves can be reactive and I manage him very carefully when we are out. If we are going to a rally trial I use rescue remedy to keep him from getting too anxious. I also have to pick and choose the places I take him carefully. They have to be small trials at times of year where I can plan to be able to work from the car. If we are going other kinds of places I usually put a pinch collar on him since he is also really rather soft and never pulls against it. It is tiring though. Despite all that I love him anyway.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Judy D I have been criticized for strict training, now I am not talking beating and jerking or rough abuse. But with some of my poodles I had to come down on them hard, and Cayenne is one that is such a bully (which I have never had before) that unless I stop it she will get hurt. She will run into the dog that does not care what size she is. 

I think getting shocked maybe Blue will remember. I feel you and I would have done the same thing to protect our dogs. I still say poodle will push the issue, if they think they can get away with it. Also, you did not do it, so I do not feel Blue will connect it with you.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Catherine, I have an herbal preparation called Composure, but I never know when he's going to need it, so I don't give it regularly. Khaleesiandthepoms, thanks for that most interesting story about your experience with the biting corgi. The confusing thing with Blue is that he's such a good dog in every other respect--very bright, quick to learn, eager to please, affectionate, gentle with my grandkids, and most of the time willing to ignore other dogs, at least if treats are involved. And then there's a day like yesterday. The other dog did absolutely nothing to provoke him, nor did the owner. Nothing stimulating was going on around us. Rich and Jazz were walking away from us, not toward the other dog. No obvious trigger. No discernible reason. He's perfectly fine at the groomer, not at all fine in the vet's waiting room but very happy to see the vet as soon as we go into the exam room. I simply can't figure it out. I'm a bit worried that being too harsh with him about the one problem will affect his good nature in other areas, but something has to change. I may try the scruff shake, or a squirt bottle, maybe put some coins in a metal can and shake it at him when he gets upset. (I have a friend with a GSD who uses that trick.) 

Anyway, I feel much better with all the feedback. Thanks again! It is good to see that there are other perspectives.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Judy, I really feel sorry for you being in this position. Although 
I have never had an aggressive dog, I have lived 13 years with an incorrigible reactive yapper, which is a really bad thing to have in an urban environment . 
The first few years I did try tons of +R and desensitization to no avail, but eventually it got to where I felt that the training techniques were worsening the behavior instead of decreasing it, I decided to focus upon management instead. Management for her meant moving to a home where she would have little outside noise stimulation (not a cheap nor easy thing to do in Manhattan), and only taking her out when I both had the stamina to face the world with my machine gun yapper, and only taking her places where she would not be too disruptive to others, and with that management we have indeed have had a happy life together and I have been able to enjoy the many wonderful things about her to the fullest. (Interestingly, in speaking with her breeder recently about her parentage, she said that the sire was a fantastic healthy dog who lived 19 wonderful years, his only failing being that he was the worst yapper that she in all her years in poodles had ever known.) Well hearing that certainly made me feel better about my dog rearing abilities, and made me feel more certain that my choice to manage rather than continue to attempt to change had indeed been the correct one).
So with that in mind, my suggestion to you is that if you feel that you have reached a dead end in training, or even if you wish to continue, but given the dangerous behavior, are anxious about testing out the training, I suggestion management.
What that means to you may be different, but to me it would mean muzzling in public, and keeping him a comfortable distance from dogs that may stimulate him. The muzzle would serve a dual purpose - it will keep accidental incidents Such as the one at the park with the small dog from turning deadly, and it would give other dog owners a visual cue to give him a wide berth.
I understand that your first reaction might be "I don't want to be THAT person with the muzzled dog", but just as the machine gun yapper is mine, I think that as we are, you will ultimately be much happier when you accept and manage the hand that you have been dealt, and and are able to just enjoy all of the wonderful things about your dog.
I hope that it does not sound too odd to you to compare dog aggression to yapping, but I fee that it is similar in that it is a trait the we neither wanted nor expected in our dogs, and similarly had no luck in eliminating through training, so I hope that my perspective of accepting and managing might help you to find a resolution that both of you can live with...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pehaps it's a bit like blue learning where he was permitted to eliminate. if i recall correctly, you said he was fine outside, but didn't realize inside was not okay and had to be given a small shake. he may not have made that transition yet mentally re reacting calmly to strange dogs. i wouldn't be too quick to try punishment - wait and see how he reacts in the next few encounters; try it without the treats - maybe after this recent experience a quiet "no" with a small leash pop will work if he seems to be taking too much notice. may not even need the leash pop. he does not seem as "tough" as the corgi khaleesi++ described - but then it's my understanding a good herding dog has to be very self-confident and difficult to intimidate.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Tiny, I agree that management is a key here, but I think it probably doesn't require a muzzle. We're rarely in such close quarters that he could engage another dog. I do have one, but muzzling him all the time would be worse for him than living a hypervigilant life is for me. Yesterday was my bad as much or more than his, because I didn't have a firm hold on the leash. (Okay, I'm weaseling here. If he were to hurt another dog, the owner wouldn't care whether muzzling bothered Blue. He'd only care that I hadn't done it.) If I can't get this under control with more assertive intervention, I'll just have to keep him away from other dogs entirely. And what a pain that will be.... 

patk, you're correct about the housetraining epiphany, and actually, the same thought has crossed my mind. Perhaps the kick will serve to show him his mistake. If not, I'll have to be more direct.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

JudyD said:


> Tiny, I agree that management is a key here, but I think it probably doesn't require a muzzle. We're rarely in such close quarters that he could engage another dog. I do have one, but muzzling him all the time would be worse for him than living a hypervigilant life is for me. Yesterday was my bad as much or more than his, because I didn't have a firm hold on the leash. (Okay, I'm weaseling here. If he were to hurt another dog, the owner wouldn't care whether muzzling bothered Blue. He'd only care that I hadn't done it.) If I can't get this under control with more assertive intervention, I'll just have to keep him away from other dogs entirely. And what a pain that will be....
> 
> 
> 
> patk, you're correct about the housetraining epiphany, and actually, the same thought has crossed my mind. Perhaps the kick will serve to show him his mistake. If not, I'll have to be more direct.



Not muzzling all the time, but when you take him out where he might encounter other dogs.
I think that a dog can be positively acclimated to a muzzle much in the same way they can be acclimated to a leash and a collar (think back to when he was a puppy, he hated those when they were first introduced too, didn't he) but now that collar and leash are a signal that something wonderful is about to happen, going out, I bet he is thrilled to see them, isn't he.
I remember the first few weeks that Timi came home, she HATED being in a bag - I recall several bus rides where all heads were turning trying to figure out where that screeching noise was coming from, but now - I have to keep that bag hidden from her - she will launch herself from across the room like a rocket trying to get into that that thing, and I don't see any reason why a muzzle would be any different for Blue, do you?
And having him excitedly launch his face into a muzzle, sure seems preferable to being hyper-vigilant for the rest of your life to me. 
And you know, using more "punishment" techniques, while it could be effective, also has the possibility of backfiring on you, and while you experiment it, I think it would be wise to have the added insurance of the muzzle - it would be just awful for you, perhaps another small dog, or perhaps Blue if it happens to be a larger dog to suffer the consequences if the "punishment plan" should backfire. You cannot control the outside world, you really never know what might be around the corner, or sneak up behind you. What if another dog was off leash, or you ran into a stupid owner who would allow their dog to approach from behind surprising both of you? Although it would technically be the other person's fault, I think you would still feel terrible if a fight with injury occurred....


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*"Shock Collar"*

I have used a shock collar quite often. I have only used the "electric shock" function once with most dogs. 

The best corrective/training collar has 3 settings:
1. "Beep Beep" I use for recall supplemented by a command word. "here" etc
2. "Buzz Buzz" vibrator (like in a cell phone) used for correction of unwanted behavior and supplemented by a command word "NO!!" etc
3. Electric shock!!! Only ever used when the "Buzz Buzz" is ignored and usually only needed once because the "buzz" feels a lot like the electric shock but milder.

Both the Buzz and the shock are variable in intensity. I usually have the buzz on 100% and the shock on 25%.

I have used these type of corrective collar on many dogs. Some have never needed any correction at all. A dog loose to walk with you, unleashed, needs to be under your control for its own and the safety of others. I have shown that the careful use of these training aids will have the average dog trained to recall well and be corrected with the word "NO!" in most all situations within about 2-3 weeks.

Never use them on a puppy less than 3 months in age.
DO NOT!! use the shock mode for constant correction.
Only use shock when all else fails. (once is often enough for life)

Grace is a bird dog!!
When she first came home she was VERY interested in birds.
She earned the names "Swan biter" and "Chook chomper" along with "puppy pogo shark"

A walk along her beach was a nightmare. I believe that a dog should not be free of a leash until leash trained, so I always had her leashed. There are Black swans, egrets, Ibis, curlew and many other birds using this beach. Grace wanted to chase and kill all of them. Once she was acceptably leash trained and 4 months old we took off the leash in a controlled area (tennis courts). She would enjoy her freedom but would come when called and sit to be leashed. The collar was fitted when out walking and not used for a week or so. She would then come to me to have the collar fitted, knowing that something good was to happen. (this way the dog does not equate the collar to correction.) Then we went to her beach. First we walked leashed at a time when few birds are present (high tide afternoon) I habitually use a whistle "two notes" as recall. I removed the leash. She made eye contact and "said" can I _*really*_ go? 
I said 'Run Free" The immediate reaction was to take a few steps and look back?? No correction just a "good girl" positive statement. Off she flew 100 mph away 300 ft or so and turned to return back to me nose in hand then off again. Normal behavior for most dogs. Back on the leash and home later. When she had learned to have some freedom, yet come when called and be leashed, we went back to the beach when birds would be present. Off leash she took off to molest a swan. Whistle, "come here" "Beep beep" No effect!! "Buzz buzz" Shook head. Shock and *"NO!!"* dead stop then return with eye contact ("daddy that swan bit me from a distance!!") Next swan chase "Buzz Buzz" *"NO!!"* recall good. Within 2 weeks recall on beep beep no birds chased. Fine for about 3 months then without the collar she took off and chased a swan into deep water where there are many cruising sharks. No notice taken of recall until she was returning because the swan took off. Back on the correction collar. No shock needed! A few buzz buzz's and back to the mark again. I used the collar on the beach for about another 3 months but rarely needed more than a beep beep for recall. The electric shock was only ever used once and was never needed again. This has been the case with all but one sight hound who was very keen on cats. He needed about 3 or four shocks before he got the message. The range of a good collar is about half a mile. They are very effective for teaching recall but I would not advise them for those who are not experienced trainers. The inexperienced tend to over-use them and then, the results are negative.

Eric (the dog electrocution man):ahhhhh:


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Thank you for posting that Eric. I have been contemplating on getting a shock collar for Mira.. not because she is "extremely disobedient" but to help with her recall so I can potentially save her life. I don't have a fenced yard and I still do not know if there will be space for a fenced yard in my new house after a pool is built. I want to have control over her off leash as that will make both our lives easier... she can have her freedom and I will be at ease knowing she will come back 100% of the time.

She is obsessed with other dogs and chasing squirrels and has run off a few times. I work on this everyday with +PR and she is very good about recall now but again not perfect. I can open the door and tell her to go potty off leash and she will do it and come back in a matter of seconds. But there are those times where she gets to a certain distance, looks at me and realizes she doesn't have to come back, her tail starts wagging extremely fast and she bolts. That's not control and there are no consequences for her disobeying me. I've been told not to get angry at your dog for running away and coming back to you later as that will teach her NOT to come back. So what do I do? I angrily give her a treat once she feels it's time to come back... :argh: I think because she is sort of sensitive I will only have to use the collar a few times and that is it. I've been chastised for even thinking about buying a collar... but my family members love to see her run outside without a leash and do not think about her getting hit by a car. She's my dog, and I want to look out for her safety.


I want to share a story. I went for a walk alongside a pretty lakeside view one day and came across a man playing fetch with his dog. I kept going forward, I normally wouldn't but I did.. I thought the dog must be friendly. As I got closer the dog spotted me and Mira and came running towards us and all the man had to say was "NO" and it stopped in its tracks and ran back the other way towards his owner. I was amazed, didn't say anything and kept walking. That is the day I renewed my training methods and realized PO is not all that great. I'm now teaching Mira the word NO, something I haven't done for the entirety of her life.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree that shock collars, when used correctly, can be a lifesaving tool.
If your dog has developed a dangerous habit and all other training methods have failed then I think it is a good alternative. A small tingling shock is nothing in comparison to your dog being hit by a car, or kicked by a horse, or seriously hurt in a dog fight (OR seriously hurting another dog)........

The vibrate mode is often enough to make a dog pay attention....even if you have to step it up and use the shock mode you only do it in very small increments, just enough to make your dog notice it. I have touched it while using the first shock setting and it is just a small tingle, it didn't hurt.
There's lots of good information out there on how to use them.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Kicking a dogs butt does work in showing the dog that a persieved behavior is not to be allowed. BUT!! the light and not injurious kick needs to be applied instantly the infraction occurs. Not even 2 seconds later or it is a useless exercise with no decent result. The use of a radio correction collar (not necessarily shock) enables the correction in immediate time. A clicker would work at close range for most. Let it be clear that I do not advocate the use of electric shock as a normal training aid. Further the use of them should be as a last resort and confined to experienced trainers. BUT!! the BUZZY vibrating action is a good aid to training and could be used by a novice with a little help. The electric shock is a rarely needed reinforcment and should not be used for regular obedience.
Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Eric thank you for giving such a great and well detailed description of how to use an e collar. I have a garmin e collar system. It is as you describe with tone, buzz and current settings. It also has a bark limiter feature that relies on the buzz (which is the main reason I have it since everybody at this house barks at too many random noises, squirrels and the like).


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I've only ever used my e-collars for recall training and stopping deer chasing (same thing, really). The trainer I worked with when I got one for Jazz was explicit about how to use it--basically as eric says--and also explicit about not using it to keep the dog from approaching other dogs or people. As eric says, the dog thinks "the deer/swan/snake bit me," but it isn't wise to make the dog think another dog or a person bit him. Could precipitate a dog fight or a human bite.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

The original article posted by JudyD was also a topic of great discussion on the +R Competition Obedience and Rally Facebook group.

As you would guess, the group is populated by dedicated +R folks, but the crucial difference in my view is that they really understand all 4 quadrants. (Even the Big Bang Theory TV show got "negative reinforcement" confused with "positive punishment.")

Important to this discussion, as has been pointed out before, is that there really isn't such a thing as "purely positive" or "positive-only" training. Even saying "no" or "uh-oh" is a "positive punishment" (something added to the environment that is designed to reduce the frequency of a behavior), and it's helpful to let the dog know what will and will not earn a cookie.

Whatever you call your methods, if your dog is a happy and willing worker, then good!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

one of the reasons i think it important to understand positive reinforcement is that it works much of the time. it's often better than the older methods, which emphasized punishment. but positive only as a training theory makes me shake my head, because of the distortions involved and because many of the advocates seem to prefer using punitive methods on anyone who mentions any other method. there are some pretty nasty positive only people out there who are so clueless that they don't understand the cognitive dissonance their behavior toward others exemplifies. most of these proponents are actually clueless about the science behind operant conditioning while proclaiming that science proves their distortion of operant conditioning correct. the quality of "reasoning" involved leaves me cross-eyed.

the article posted by judyd, if i read it correctly, did not reject positive reinforcement per se. it rejected positive only, which is another thing entirely. and i'm pretty sure part of the vehemence of the rejection had to do with the religious adherence aspect of positive only proponents who seem to be especially adept at casting anyone not an adherent as incompetent evildoers. 

it seems to me that moderation is important in dog training as well as in other aspects of life. don't beat your children or your dog. don't spend your life yelling. but don't be afraid of setting boundaries - just recognize that how you enforce boundaries often matters as much as the boundaries themselves. making the right choices isn't always easy, depending on the dog, but it's worth taking the trouble to try to do so if it means being able to keep your dog as a family member.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> one of the reasons i think it important to understand positive reinforcement is that it works much of the time. it's often better than the older methods, which emphasized punishment. but positive only as a training theory makes me shake my head, because of the distortions involved and because many of the advocates seem to prefer using punitive methods on anyone who mentions any other method. there are some pretty nasty positive only people out there who are so clueless that they don't understand the cognitive dissonance their behavior toward others exemplifies. most of these proponents are actually clueless about the science behind operant conditioning while proclaiming that science proves their distortion of operant conditioning correct. the quality of "reasoning" involved leaves me cross-eyed.
> 
> the article posted by judyd, if i read it correctly, did not reject positive reinforcement per se. it rejected positive only, which is another thing entirely. and i'm pretty sure part of the vehemence of the rejection had to do with the religious adherence aspect of positive only proponents who seem to be especially adept at casting anyone not an adherent as incompetent evildoers.
> 
> it seems to me that moderation is important in dog training as well as in other aspects of life. don't beat your children or your dog. don't spend your life yelling. but don't be afraid of setting boundaries - just recognize that how you enforce boundaries often matters as much as the boundaries themselves. making the right choices isn't always easy, depending on the dog, but it's worth taking the trouble to try to do so if it means being able to keep your dog as a family member.


yes yes yes yes!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

ericwd9 said:


> Kicking a dogs butt does work in showing the dog that a persieved behavior is not to be allowed. BUT!! the light and not injurious kick needs to be applied instantly the infraction occurs.


What the L? Kicking a dog is NEVER okay!!!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> What the L? Kicking a dog is NEVER okay!!!



I thought he was speaking metaphorically, wasn't he?....


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

zooeysmom said:


> What the L? Kicking a dog is NEVER okay!!!


Depends on how hard you kick and how much the kick is needed.
As I said, by the time you react and discipline the dog, in _*any way,
*_It's too late anyway and it would be a negative exercise with unpredictable results. I have often _*lightly *_kicked a misrecreant dog. My foot is in a handy position on my body. You can shout all you like. You can't treat your way out of consistent bad behavior. Waiting for some kind of good or required behavior to treat could take all year. On the other hand if you kick/hit a dog too hard, the dog will avoid you and not the behavior you want to curb. Too hard is anything that causes pain, period. My current and possibly my last dog Grace sees my light tap with a foot as me gaining her attention. eye contact, "What do you want daddy?". Just the use of her name will have the same effect now. But in her early training _*the foot was needed. *_to get the attention of a hyperactive standard poodle puppy you need a "H" bomb
Eric (the dog abuser):aetsch:


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Eric I understand what you mean, sometimes you have to use negative training (not causing pain) to get the dogs attention to understand you are in charge. Cayenne was awful with toilet paper, and would un roll it right in front of me. Each time I said no (she was 1.5 yrs when I got her, and not housebroken or corrected. The 4th time I picked her up said NO loudly, and took 2 fingers and cracked her on the butt. That was 7 months ago, she never touches toilet paper again.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

By my name, you can tell I rely on positive reinforcement. I love the joy I see in my dog when she is figuring out what will earn her a click and a treat. That being said, I'm not in the positive reinforcement only camp.

Noelle discovered it is fun to chase cats. Waving a biscuit, squeaking a toy, making kissing noises, doesn't stop the chase. One of my cats had his leg amputated on December 29. Cyclone is doing amazing, and I am so glad he is healing. Obviously, my tripod cat can't run away from Noelle. It is dangerous to Cyclone to have to flee a puppy. It is also cruel and unfair to expect him to.

Yesterday, I caught Noelle just as the chase began, shook her scruff and forced her to the floor. Chasing cats is unacceptable. Biggest no-no in the house. A thousand treats couldn't communicate what that scruff shake did. I don't have time to carefully counter condition Noelle not to chase an injured cat. Cyclone has a dog free recovery room, but if he wants to practice walking through the house, he should be free do do that. He's been through a lot and deserves a peaceful home.

The scruff shake taught Noelle cat chasing is unacceptable. What she needs to know is what I do want her to do around cats. That is where positive reinforcement comes in. Calm behavior around the cats, click-n-treat. Nuzzle cat, click-n-treat. Walk past cat and ignore it, click-n-treat. Fetch a toy past a running cat, click-n-treat a hundred treats. 

I spend most of my time teaching Noelle what I do want her to do. But, I'm not afraid to issue a level ten correction to protect Cyclone.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Hello Judy,

I will share my story here because your dog's behavior is very similar to mine, and I think it's worth looking into. 

I once had a female boston terrier, maybe 22 pounds. The most friendly dog you've ever seen, she loves everyone. She was food with the other dog at the house. I could see she was somewhat protective of us, but nothing major. When the kids fought, she would place herself between them and bark, to make the stop.

Over time, she started being aggressive towards other dogs. At first I was letting her play off leash, but I had to stop at one point. The last time I tried her off leash, she saw this dog maybe 40 feet away, and without any growling, barking or any warning sign at all, she went for the poor thing. I mean, she went to kill ! It was awful, the owner was an old lady, and she had no clue what to do. I was trying to get my dog, while the little one was just hanging from his leash, trying to defend himself. I don't remember how, but I managed to get my dog in my arms to stop her. I was so embarrassed... It had all happened in maybe 15-20 seconds, so there was no blood, no harm done. But it was very scary to watch. I apologized profusely and went my way, putting my dog back on its leash. That was the last time she was ever off leash.

Meanwhile, life keeps going and my dog sometimes runs away, even though my yard is fenced. She likes to go around the neighborhood and find friends. It doesn't happen often, but once or twice, I get a call from the city animal control who give me the address where she is (she had the city tag on and that's how she was reported). I go get her, and to my surprise, there are other dogs in the house, and the lady tells me that she ismjust the nicest dog, loves everyone and has played with her dogs all night, both outside and inside !

That's when it clicked... That dog was not dog aggressive at all, she was protecting me ! You see I appear to be very calm, but inside, I am like a volcano. Worrying a lot and sometimes anxious. So this big dog at heart was just trying to protect me. And the more I anticipated her attacking dogs, the more she felt it and felt compelled to eliminate the source of my stress.

I later found out that when she was with my daughter, she wouldn't do it, and neither with my son.

With working to change behavior on such a dog, the key is to change yourself, and the dog's reactions will be changed also. I don't think I would have changed easily, though. So no more dog encounters for this dog. 

I am not saying it's the same with you. But it's very easy to verify. Just have someone calm, not worried, not anxious, walk your dog with other dogs around and eventually play with them. You'll have your answer.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Dechi, that is a most interesting post. I've considered that Blue might be attempting to guard me, but he never does it at home, or around people without dogs, and he isn't a resource guarder otherwise. The dogs he reacts to have never been threatening. Occasionally one (usually a small dog) will yip and bark, but for the most part, they don't even seem to notice him until he reacts.

The behaviorist thought at first that Blue was leash-reactive, probably because he was reading my tension through the leash (hard not to feel tense if you anticipate a dog fight, but I digress...), so we set up a situation where she had Blue on a 30 foot line, and a friend/trainer brought one of her dogs into the room. There was no hesitation--Blue, who, thankfully, was muzzled, went right for him, growling and snarling. I was there but very quiet. 

As much as I wish it otherwise, I really do think he's reacting to something we simply can't understand. My husband has even suggested that perhaps he doesn't see well at a distance. If that's the case, he'd fit right in with our family--all of us are very nearsighted--but he doesn't seem to have a problem unless other dogs are present.

I've been reluctant to take him back to the park. We're supposed to meet there with the behaviorist next weekend. Perhaps she'll walk him while I'm out of sight, and we can see what happens.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Dang, that is really perplexing isn't it? It would definitely be a little easier if at least the trigger was obvious, but sounds like it is not at all. As you've been saying all along, actually (from the earliest posts). I don't think it is you transmitting your concern about a possible fight (and that long leash test confirms that, I think). Perhaps there is something like eye contact - fleeting! - or some other trigger. Most vexing.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

As I said above, perhaps the behaviorist will walk Blue next weekend without me anywhere in the vicinity. That might be an interesting experiment. I absolutely don't think I'm the trigger, but I could be wrong. (I've been absolutely sure and absolutely wrong in the past. At least once or twice.)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It doesn't sound like you are the trigger to me either. Refresh my memory, Blue is still intact or neutered? Are the dogs he reacts to either sex and do you know desexed or not?

Since you raise the issue of vision, how does he react to eye contact from dogs he knows and accepts? Is he willing to hold eye contact with you and your husband, despite distractions? In the Brenda Aloff books I am reading she talks about the usefulness of teaching your dog to maintain eye contact with you as a reassurance of his/her safety. I have that with Lily and to a lesser extent with Peeves and am working hard at getting Javelin to understand it too. He is very willing to look at me but still can be easily distracted.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

judyd, i think you've seen my story about my male lowchen? introverted, calm in public, never ran up to dogs or people first. never barked except at jack russells (due to an encounter with one at a park). then i brought the female into my house. he became a barker, telling every dog to stay away. she could not have cared less - she was fearless, really, but just about every dog where i live was harmless. when the female had to be put to sleep, the male dog's behavior reverted back to what it had been. no more barking at any dog except those danged jack russells. so i think your behaviorist is right about our not necessarily knowing what a dog's trigger is. hopefully she will be able to guide you and blue. let us know how it goes.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> It doesn't sound like you are the trigger to me either. Refresh my memory, Blue is still intact or neutered? Are the dogs he reacts to either sex and do you know desexed or not?
> 
> Since you raise the issue of vision, how does he react to eye contact from dogs he knows and accepts? Is he willing to hold eye contact with you and your husband, despite distractions? In the Brenda Aloff books I am reading she talks about the usefulness of teaching your dog to maintain eye contact with you as a reassurance of his/her safety. I have that with Lily and to a lesser extent with Peeves and am working hard at getting Javelin to understand it too. He is very willing to look at me but still can be easily distracted.


We had him zeutered at ten months, hoping to preserve 40-50% of his testosterone, but by the time he was a year old, it was clear that wasn't enough, so he got neuter surgery for his birthday. (That didn't make much difference either--maybe we could have left him intact.) 

I can't see any commonality to the dogs that set him off. I don't have any way to know who's neutered and who's not (we don't get that close), but as far as I can see, big, small, male, female, a rainbow of colors, any breed or a mix, calm, barking, it doesn't matter. He's an equal opportunity offender.

He didn't make good eye contact when he was young, but we worked on "watch me" until he's pretty good with it. He sits in front of me and looks directly into my eyes. He doesn't hold it for a long time, but long enough to redirect him. I don't think he needs reassurance. He doesn't seem to be afraid or uneasy about anything.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh, it is too bad that those simple things I thought of don't seem to be part of the picture.

Brenda Aloff says that being able to keep prolonged eye contact is a really useful tool for many situations. I am still working on increasing the duration of Lily's eye contact. I do think it is a thing that helps her settle and regain her focus when we are working.


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## Khaleesiandthepoms (Feb 25, 2014)

Not to change the subject but Brenda Aloff is AMAZING. I love her books on canine body language, the most comprehensive guides ever on it, my bibles pretty much.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

It seems odd to me that prolonged eye contact is a good training tool (and I don't doubt that it is), even though dogs are supposed to find direct eye contact threatening or challenging. Does Aloff address that at all?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Khaleesi I missed a chance to see her in person, but the woman I've been doing my private obedience did go to her seminar so I still feel like a great beneficiary.

JudyD Ms. Aloff does address the issue of eye contact not being natural for most dogs somewhere, but I can't find it right now. She does have a website, DVDs and books. I have her puppy book and "Get Connected With Your Dog" along with the one Khaleesi mentioned. What she does say for dogs that don't like eye contact in terms of establishing comfort with it is to start with a very relaxed dog in a non-distracting environment and to make just a very quick glancing direct look and then avert your eyes to the side. Reward and repeat with increasing duration for the eye contact.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I've just ordered two of Aloff's books, the one on reading body language and the one on working with aggressive dogs. I'm looking forward to reading them.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

JudyD said:


> Dechi, that is a most interesting post. I've considered that Blue might be attempting to guard me, but he never does it at home, or around people without dogs, and he isn't a resource guarder otherwise. The dogs he reacts to have never been threatening. Occasionally one (usually a small dog) will yip and bark, but for the most part, they don't even seem to notice him until he reacts.


Again, not saying it's the same as me, but my dog was the same. No resource guarding at all, no protecting or guarding me anywhere. Just going after the dogs to kill, only when I am around.

I hope it goes well with your trainer.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I've really enjoyed this conversation, all of it. Civil discourse and a wide range of thoughtful opinions.

I'm a "mostly positive" trainer myself, but even I yell, "No!" at times, and I recognize the utility of an e-collar in extreme cases and in experienced hands, as was discussed here for such behaviors as de-snaking and recall situations.

You might like this review of an Obedience classic, _Playtraining Your Dog _by Patriica Gail Burnham. Book Review: Playtraining Your Dog As an older book, it discusses some methods that today we think of as quite "force-based," (such as the ear pinch for retrieves), yet the book achieves something in discussing the idea that different dogs might require different methods. She talks about "The Impossible Dog," whose owner she worked with a lot. Very, very different from her sensitive greyhounds, this Komondor thrived once his handler got assertive and physical. Techniques that would have destroyed her dogs caused him to put on his best performances ever. 

It's all about the individual dog. Though, all things being equal, I still fall on the side of using as few aversives as possible for the dog. It takes some training chops and sometimes a shifting of training paradigms to go in that direction, but for me it was worth it. Instead of thinking, "What can I do to him that will get him to stop what he's doing?" I think, "What can I get him to want to do instead of [this obnoxious thing he's doing]?" and work from there. 

JudyD, I wish you the best of luck with your dog aggression problem. You probably know that I had a similar situation with Sugarfoot after he was attacked by a loose dog at a young age. To this day I don't trust him with other dogs and would never let him run loose with other dogs (save for a very select few). It's been about 3 years since his attack, though, and he is vastly improved. He can be in a crowded Agility arena with multiple high-energy dogs all around him, and he can stay focused and keep his head. But there will always be a degree of management in play with him. He is a dog that would be confused and broken by physical corrections, so that's not on the table in dealing with him. 

In general, Poodles really love to learn, so we all have a definite advantage in the area of training!

Best regards to all,
--Q


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