# Looking into pedigree



## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

Attached are pictures of her Sire's pedigree and the Dam's pedigree


I have a female standard poodle I got from luck. I was previously considering Breeding and showing prior to getting her and I am not currently working with a handful of mentors.

I wanted to see if I could get help on finding information on her pedigree I found she came from family affairs standards and have seen many mixed reviews on them mainly negative. She's a beautiful girl and my mentors believe as long as she passes all her OFA and genetic testing she could get me to where I'd like to get in the show ring.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

What, exactly, do you hope to get from breeding her? These pedigrees are not what I would want to see for a female that I would consider breeding. Have you looked up the first 2-3 generations on the OFA web site to be sure they have tested clear of serious genetic issues? Most quality poodles have many champions in the pedigree - and they do not have such a wide variety of colors.

Are you planning to show her at AKC shows? Do you have anyone to help you with show grooming (for any kind of show)?


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## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> What, exactly, do you hope to get from breeding her? These pedigrees are not what I would want to see for a female that I would consider breeding. Have you looked up the first 2-3 generations on the OFA web site to be sure they have tested clear of serious genetic issues? Most quality poodles have many champions in the pedigree - and they do not have such a wide variety of colors.
> 
> Are you planning to show her at AKC shows? Do you have anyone to help you with show grooming (for any kind of show)?





Johanna said:


> What, exactly, do you hope to get from breeding her? These pedigrees are not what I would want to see for a female that I would consider breeding. Have you looked up the first 2-3 generations on the OFA web site to be sure they have tested clear of serious genetic issues? Most quality poodles have many champions in the pedigree - and they do not have such a wide variety of colors.
> 
> Are you planning to show her at AKC shows? Do you have anyone to help you with show grooming (for any kind of show)?





Johanna said:


> What, exactly, do you hope to get from breeding her? These pedigrees are not what I would want to see for a female that I would consider breeding. Have you looked up the first 2-3 generations on the OFA web site to be sure they have tested clear of serious genetic issues? Most quality poodles have many champions in the pedigree - and they do not have such a wide variety of colors.
> 
> Are you planning to show her at AKC shows? Do you have anyone to help you with show grooming (for any kind of show)?


I plan on doing agility with her she would receive a DQ in AKC showing due to having liver points and not black. I'm having other mentors help me judge on what she could bring to the table. She is my first poodle and plan on getting my true show prospect in a year or two if not from her. I would plan to breed her to a black male to darken the points and work on her other faults (shortening the loin etc.)faults.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Even for a color bred, that pedigree is wild. A thoughtful color breeder wouldn't mix red and any fading color (e.g. silver beige), as you don't want red to fade. Nor would a thoughtful color breeder mix brown and red, as you could get liver pigment (as you apparently have.) I also don't understand why they crossed a phantom line with a red line. Red masks phantom, so this cross isn't improving the quality of the phantom line. On average red and phantom dogs don't have the conformation quality of black dogs (red and phantom are only recently popular,) so they are an odd choice of outcross for someone looking to improve either a red or a phantom line.

Added to all these thoughts, I see a place on the pedigree where two brown based dogs produced a black based dog, and another where two red dogs produced silver beige. Both results are genetically impossible. Either someone reported the wrong color or someone reported the wrong parents, and these errors happened multiple times.

If you are doing things properly you will be investing a lot of time and money in your dog before you ever breed her. The possibility of falsified papers would give me pause if I were looking to make that investment and start a breeding program with this dog.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Cowpony, I agree 100%. 

Sunset_pooches, are you sure you want to breed her? Do you already have a list of at least 6 people who have put down a deposit on a puppy? Have you talked to someone who is a successful breeder about possible problems? Have you considered costs (vet checkups for the dam, docking and dew claw removal, and the awful possibility of whelping problems)? Do you have a safe, easily cleaned place for the whelping box and puppy pen? These are just a few of many important considerations.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Added to all these thoughts, I see a place on the pedigree where two brown based dogs produced a black based dog, and another where two red dogs produced silver beige. Both results are genetically impossible.


I don't know much about genetics but even I caught these. I have a red standard. Her pedigree goes back several generations and the only colors involved are red and black. All of these colors put together seem like a crap shoot and not carefully planned breeding.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

EJStevenP said:


> I don't know much about genetics but even I caught these. I have a red standard. Her pedigree goes back several generations and the only colors involved are red and black. All of these colors put together seem like a crap shoot and not carefully planned breeding.


That makes sense. Even though color should be secondary to good structure and temperament, realistically, both breeders and buyers have strong color preferences. People buying browns and reds want a rich hue that holds its color. People wanting a fading color (cream, blue, silver beige) tend to prefer a lighter shade that fades quickly. It makes no sense to cross the two color families together. Additionally, parti and phantom lovers tend to prefer bold markings. Again, you'd want to be careful not to introduce anything to wash out the color.

In terms of color, this pedigree is like a game of rock, paper, scissors. No matter what someone's color goal is, some dog this pedigree could have introduced a recessive that defeats the goal.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Cowpony, I don't think there was a color goal - or any goal. It's what I call a "Sammy to Suzie" breeding: "I have a female and you have a male, so let's breed them together". And I agree that the pedigree is probably false - maybe from a pet shop?


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Sunset_pooches said:


> I plan on doing agility with her she would receive a DQ in AKC showing due to having liver points and not black. I'm having other mentors help me judge on what she could bring to the table. She is my first poodle and plan on getting my true show prospect in a year or two if not from her. I would plan to breed her to a black male to darken the points and work on her other faults (shortening the loin etc.)faults.


I am not a breeder, nor am I very knowledgeable about the complexity of genes. I do however know what I want in a pup and which type of breeder I look for. As I understand, you want to learn the ropes and become a breeder in time. 
I look for breeder who wants to improve the chosen breed. I look for a breeder who has proven themselves in shows and/ or sporting competitions. As poodles live 15 + years, I want my dogs to have as healthy and pain-free a life as possible. Conformation, proves breeding as close to standards as possible. This ensures health in movement and sports. I like to have my dogs measured and judged against breed standards. If your bitch's loin is off from the start, your dog might experience unnecessary pain doing agility. Health, absolute unquestionable. Again 15+ years means the sire and dam have to be evaluated and dna tested as it now is a reasonable opportunity. Our spoo pups breeder, doesn't breed her bitches before they turn three for maximum mental maturity. They are bred every second heat cycle and no more than thrice. Temperament, goes without saying. Only the best of the best. Evaluation of the puppy to ensure the best match in the forever home.
We were allowed to visit every week and only after week 7 and temperament evaluation, was the final decision made on which pup was best suited for our family.
Again, I have limited knowledge, but I would second the concerns mentioned by those far more experienced and knowledgeable. The choice of dams and sires, seem all over the place if they are correct. You mention a bitch with less desirable points and loin. This is not a dog you want to breed. She is no doubt a wonderful pet, but not breeding material. 
As you can see, I am not the easiest customer, however I promise you, if done right, I am the most loyal. We visit our breeder with our pup regularly. They are interested in his growth and development. Always helpful with advice. I would recommend them in a heartbeat. But the serious, hard work they have put in their breeding program and lines give them respect and acknowledgement. 
I hope you love your girl, but acquire a more suitable dog for your breeding. Look forward to following your progress.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Sunset_pooches, if you're still with us, I know this hasn't been what you hoped to hear, but it's meant to be honest.

I'm not clear what it was you were hoping to learn from or about the pedigrees. It's not clear whether your mentors are breeders who show, either AKC or UKC conformation, if conformation is the event you wish to participate in.

It's not clear whether you have any experience in showing or have been to shows to see first-hand how the competitions go. That's also a chance to meet some breeders, in their off time, and make additional connections.

If you're interested, here's the AKC Events Search.
American Kennel Club - Events (akc.org)

and UKC
Show Ops Events Calendar | United Kennel Club (UKC) (ukcdogs.com)


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## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Even for a color bred, that pedigree is wild. A thoughtful color breeder wouldn't mix red and any fading color (e.g. silver beige), as you don't want red to fade. Nor would a thoughtful color breeder mix brown and red, as you could get liver pigment (as you apparently have.) I also don't understand why they crossed a phantom line with a red line. Red masks phantom, so this cross isn't improving the quality of the phantom line. On average red and phantom dogs don't have the conformation quality of black dogs (red and phantom are only recently popular,) so they are an odd choice of outcross for someone looking to improve either a red or a phantom line.
> 
> Added to all these thoughts, I see a place on the pedigree where two brown based dogs produced a black based dog, and another where two red dogs produced silver beige. Both results are genetically impossible. Either someone reported the wrong color or someone reported the wrong parents, and these errors happened multiple times.
> 
> If you are doing things properly you will be investing a lot of time and money in your dog before you ever breed her. The possibility of falsified papers would give me pause if I were looking to make that investment and start a breeding program with this dog.


Thank you so much for your input I've been wanting to hear more on her pedigree like this so I really appreciate the information and it helps me learn what to look for in a pedigree in the future.


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## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> Cowpony, I agree 100%.
> 
> Sunset_pooches, are you sure you want to breed her? Do you already have a list of at least 6 people who have put down a deposit on a puppy? Have you talked to someone who is a successful breeder about possible problems? Have you considered costs (vet checkups for the dam, docking and dew claw removal, and the awful possibility of whelping problems)? Do you have a safe, easily cleaned place for the whelping box and puppy pen? These are just a few of many important considerations.


I really appreciate the thought you put in your reply. No I am not sure I want to breed her. I've been asking for input and opinions everywhere possible. I am aware about costs and complications she wouldn't be ready to breed until at least next year and like I said I'm not even set on of she's a good candidate for a foundation of any kind. I am talking with many mentors and the more I learn the more I want to wait to get my dream show/breeding prospect.


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## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

Minie said:


> I am not a breeder, nor am I very knowledgeable about the complexity of genes. I do however know what I want in a pup and which type of breeder I look for. As I understand, you want to learn the ropes and become a breeder in time.
> I look for breeder who wants to improve the chosen breed. I look for a breeder who has proven themselves in shows and/ or sporting competitions. As poodles live 15 + years, I want my dogs to have as healthy and pain-free a life as possible. Conformation, proves breeding as close to standards as possible. This ensures health in movement and sports. I like to have my dogs measured and judged against breed standards. If your bitch's loin is off from the start, your dog might experience unnecessary pain doing agility. Health, absolute unquestionable. Again 15+ years means the sire and dam have to be evaluated and dna tested as it now is a reasonable opportunity. Our spoo pups breeder, doesn't breed her bitches before they turn three for maximum mental maturity. They are bred every second heat cycle and no more than thrice. Temperament, goes without saying. Only the best of the best. Evaluation of the puppy to ensure the best match in the forever home.
> We were allowed to visit every week and only after week 7 and temperament evaluation, was the final decision made on which pup was best suited for our family.
> Again, I have limited knowledge, but I would second the concerns mentioned by those far more experienced and knowledgeable. The choice of dams and sires, seem all over the place if they are correct. You mention a bitch with less desirable points and loin. This is not a dog you want to breed. She is no doubt a wonderful pet, but not breeding material.
> ...


Thank you that was a beautiful response. I'm definitely still looking to learn the ropes and gain more knowledge. I have been working hard to get aquatinted with fellow breeders in my state and attending dog shows as well. The longer O go and the more I look at my girl I see she is not the quality the breed needs but I am thankful to her for getting me to love the breed and enter this new world. Again thank you for your response!


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## Sunset_pooches (8 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Sunset_pooches, if you're still with us, I know this hasn't been what you hoped to hear, but it's meant to be honest.
> 
> I'm not clear what it was you were hoping to learn from or about the pedigrees. It's not clear whether your mentors are breeders who show, either AKC or UKC conformation, if conformation is the event you wish to participate in.
> 
> ...


Actually I love the responses I've gotten here. A lot of the mentors and handlers I've spoken with are amazing and helpful but they also have their hands full with whelping litters, showing/handling and my girl's pedigree has been bothering me for a while but I haven't been able to learn how to read it or what to look for when searching for the Dam's and sires on the pedigree. I'm also still learning about color genetics. I've never shown or handled I would love to one day be able to get into the ring and show my bred by. I've done a lot of Networking Im a groomer trainee and surrounded in handlers and breeders now. Any chance I get to connect with more people who are willing to teach the merrier and everyone here has taught me so much. Thank you!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I'm relieved you have taken the responses in the spirit they are given. Hang around on the forum. People are incredible here. There's everyone from a pet owner like me, to breeders who have been at it for a good half century. Everyone is very generous with information, and are thankfully very honest. The dogs welfare is definitely a priority here. I'm looking forward to watching you grow as a breeder.


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

Well my ears pricked up at the mention of agility! Enjoy your dog and watch out because the sport of agility is addicting!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Reading a pedigree.
To begin with, a 5 generation pedigree is more useful than a 3 generation pedigree. 
You want to see many dogs with titles - conformation (a Ch in front of the name), obedience (name followed with CD, CDX, UD, UDT and others), agility, tracking, and others. Check out Titles by Sport – American Kennel Club for the list of AKC titles.
You want to see OFA numbers and indications of good results of hip, elbow, eye, and/or patella testing. 
You want to see at least one or two dogs repeated in a five-generation pedigree (that is known as line-breeding).
You do not want to see a wide variety of colors and patterns (for dogs that will be shown in AKC conformation you do not want to see any patterns - no parti-colored dogs, no sables, etc.). If breeding apricots or reds, you do not want to have brown dogs in the pedigree - that can lead to brown noses and eye rims instead of the preferred black.

I hope this is a useful introduction to reading a pedigree. If you look at the pedigrees at the beginning of this thread, notice that they do not have the above qualities.


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