# Advice needed



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is too bad you had such an upsetting experience. For others reading here when selecting a place to train I suggest watching a class or two before signing up to get the vibe on the place. If they won't let you do that then that is by itself a red flag.

I would look for a trainer who is CPDT-KA certified and/or a member of the APDT. CPDT-KA is certified professional dog trainer-knowledge assessed. Ian views it as the best certification there is for trainers. The APDT is the Association for Professional Dog Trainers and was founded by Ian. APDT has a search tool to find trainers and many APDT members are CPDT-KA trainers. You could also look for someone who is a CGC evaluator since the basis of the CGC program is based on positive training methods. You might also look for an AKC affiliated obedience club rather than a for profit trainer or facility.

That said I am not opposed to giving dogs corrections when needed, but corrections are for dogs who know a behavior, not dogs being taught a behavior and corrections should be as mild as possible (sometimes just a meaningful no is enough). I would not step on a leash to get a dog onto a down if they didn't already really know what down meant. There are other ways to get there and there are other ways to build endurance for a down short of standing on the dog's leash to coerce the down.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I think you already know the answer, I would never have anyone treat my poodle that way. There are positive training methods


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sorry you, Tango, and the other dogs in the class had that disgusting, despicable experience with a horrible "trainer." Makes my blood boil. 

Catherine just mentioned the CPDT-KA and APDT certifications, which are a good starting point. I would make absolutely sure the trainer uses positive reinforcement (reinforcement with praise, toys, treats). That is my preference. I don't do any corrections. Everything I do with my dogs is built on trust and motivation. And that doesn't mean never saying no or giving a time out  But, it does mean nothing that hurts my dogs or makes them scared of me.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I was very lucky with my first trainer. She was certified and had worked briefly with the late Dr. Sophia Yin. We worked with her for a year during which time Buck made great progress. She left training to work with her husband’s consulting company when my Spoo was almost a year old. Her successors, also certified, were terrible. One suggested tethering him to a tree to curb jumping. Ugh. I had all the books, Kikopup and our excellent training advice on PF. Go with your gut on the trainers. You were certainly right about that one!


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## jennkpeterson (Nov 24, 2018)

I have done the official break up with the trainer. I have found an obedience club in our area and 1 certified trainer within a 25 mile radius. So, a couple of options for us. [emoji3]

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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so glad you found an obedience club and are not returning to this brute. 

It reminded me of the place I first went to when I brought my minipoo home. She wasn’t quite as bad but she also forced us to do that stepping on the leash to hold your dog to the floor. I couldn’t wait to find a better place and I found wonderful trainers in the various dog clubs in my community. I hope your new place is positive and effective. Poodles are sensitive dogs and need appropriate training.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As I mentioned above I would see what you can arrange to have a watch session to get a feel for the new possibilities. I hope it is all for the good.


So everyone knows both of the organizations I mentioned have ethics codes and other documents regarding minimal use of aversives.


http://www.ccpdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/SOP-COE-Policy-2019.pdf


http://www.ccpdt.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/LIMA-Policy-2019.pdf


https://apdt.com/about/position-statements/


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I feel your pain. I went to a trainer who put a prong collar on Noelle and when she wouldn't stay, he gave her such a hard yank that she yelped, fell to the floor in a heap and refused to move. He called her calm and submissive. Nope, terrified and shut down. I left that class in tears. Violence is not needed for training. 

I'm so glad you left that training behind. I hope things get much better for you from here.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Oh my clearly that trainer did not know how to use a prong collar. I actually like the use of the prong collar but you must now what your doing. I always have one on Renn when we walk. I never ever have had to yank it. Early on it taught him not to pull, now I use the flat collar more since he doesn't pull anymore but when in the street I use the prong mostly as a safety net for me that he will be reminded should something happen. The flat collar if he acts out chokes him the prong just evenly pinches and he knows. So sorry that happened to your sweet Noelle.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

ClicknTreat said it best "Violence has no place in training". I also have left an advanced rally course when one of the assistant trainers "borrowed" my Dalmatian to demonstrate something, and because he would not work for her, proceeded to alpha roll him. A lot of us were stunned. He would not easily work for others because he always kept a side eye on me - to make sure I was ok with it, and must have missed one of her hand signals. Last time I attended that class there of course - and we were 3 times a week minimum class junkies. The head trainer who I liked a lot tried to explain the behavior by "she is used to a tough breed, and if you give those guys an inch..." etc nonsense. My Dal would work his little heart out for you, but only because his motivation was to please you - not out of fear. I tried one more course there - without that particular assistant but I could not overcome that event - Dalmatian was fine, but for me the whole place was soured.

So sorry you had that experience, but at the same time it is nice that you stood up for your dog and already found an alternative.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I only use my dogs as demo dogs, but I will work with other people's dogs every now and then if they need to be able to watch what they should be doing, not to demo for the class. After all I want to show a proper execution of whatever we are doing and think it is pretty silly to try to do that with a dog that doesn't know the behavior and might be wary of working for me. Lily knows everything I would show a novice class as does Javelin.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I too had a terrible episode with a trainer who thought the first and best command was a strong NO, and using chain and prong collars was the way to go. I had made the mistake of paying for three private lessons because it was cheaper to buy 3. 

Well, I left and never used the third lesson, just let the money be wasted. Now if I see anyone using a prong collar in public I either turn around and go the other way, or cross to the other side of the street. It is an indication they have a poorly trained dog that I do not want to be around. 

I finally called three recommended vets, plus the humane society, and the local AKC for recommendations for trainers, and then checked out those trainers. (They only recommended two of all of the trainers in town). Yes, I agree, go watch a class or two of the trainer, interview them, possibly even hire them for one private, and watch every moment. It's better to waste some money than to risk your dog being mistreated. 

I now know who the absolute best trainer is in our area and highly recommend her to others.

Telling a dog NO does not tell it what to do at all. I find that the best thing to do is to give the command that you actually want them to do. At least for mine it works every time.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kontiki said:


> I too had a terrible episode with a trainer who thought the first and best command was a strong NO, and using chain and prong collars was the way to go. I had made the mistake of paying for three private lessons because it was cheaper to buy 3.
> 
> *Well, I left and never used the third lesson, just let the money be wasted. Now if I see anyone using a prong collar in public I either turn around and go the other way, or cross to the other side of the street. It is an indication they have a poorly trained dog that I do not want to be around.*
> 
> ...



I absolutely disagree with you on this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess if that is your blanket judgement you would never come to one of my classes or take a walk with me and any of my dogs who are all impeccably trained but almost always wear pinch collars. You are casting a universal judgement, I suspect, based on experience with some people who don't know how to use their tools. I never make anyone use a particular tool like a pinch collar, but do for the most part prohibit choke chains for novice handlers. If I recommend a pinch collar I give education on how to use it and how to introduce it in a way that its use can be faded when appropriate.


PS. What is a local AKC? Local AKC sanctioned club?


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I too had a terrible episode with a trainer who thought the first and best command was a strong NO, and using chain and prong collars was the way to go. I had made the mistake of paying for three private lessons because it was cheaper to buy 3

I admit the first words my girls learn is NO for anything I do not want them to do period and it is a loud NO. An example bitting, jumping on people, trying to steal one anothers food (which they never go to another dogs bowl until the dog leaves. After no it sit and/or stay.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

There is nothing wrong with telling a dog it was wrong if it has made a mistake with something it understands reasonably well, but *NO *screamed while hanging the dog or jerking a collar at a dog that doesn't understand what you were telling it to do is very unfair and not trustworthy on our part.


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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

That class sounds horrible! 
I was lucky to encounter a good teacher among the weeds. Nevertheless found that it was better to initially teach the down command (positive version) at home. The puppy class we attended was good for teaching me how to teach it, but asking for a down in an unfamiliar place around unfamiliar dogs seemed pretty unfair until my pup felt safe and understood what I was asking. 
Also, I wouldn’t step on the leash when in teaching mode... kind of defeats the purpose of training a voluntary behavior. But I do step on it occasionally when I have to prevent my dog from jumping up on people in real situations like on friendly kids, standing in line, encountering dog adverse people, etc. when I know she’s getting ready to put her paws up on them. It’s not to put her in a down and I give her plenty of loose leash to stand comfortably, just not enough to stand on hind legs. I find that as she’s progressing with walking nice she’s also jumping less on strangers, so that’s my focus but if I have to intervene I will step on the leash.
Finally, I don’t think No in and of itself is a bad word. It depends on tone & what the next words out of my mouth are- which must always be a positive alternative behavior followed by plenty of praise.

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The problem with many trainers or so called trainers is that they don't know behavior or don't know it well enough. They think that because the dog has done a certain behavior once or twice before or even numerous times and this time he doesn't, he "needs" a correction. Aka: yank on the collar, harsh voice... or some other brand of punishment. You hear, "he's blowing me off." "he knows, but he's just being stubborn." There are lots of reasons dogs don't do something that you think they should know. They may not have had a long enough time where they were reinforced sufficiently for it so it's not that motivating for them to do it. Now is where you hear how immoral they are and that they should do it because they're suppose to love us. Dogs do what works. FOR THEM. If the behavior you're seeking is less motivating than something else in the environment, they're going to go do what they want the most...be it chase a squirrel or not come when called. They might be tired and thinking about something else that day or maybe they are distracted or have a headache. And again...They MUST have had a long enough history of being reinforced sufficiently for each behavior. And there must be consistency behind them. So a "correction" doesn't make sense and is unfair. 

If one time they don't do what they have been doing or don't do it right, then the trainer is asking too much too soon and needs to step back and work where the dog was more successful. 

Another point is that often times when a dog appears to "know" a behavior because he's done it a few times, it may not be above coincidence that he's done the behavior. He has to eliminate other behaviors that are happening at the same time as the target behavior as to which one he's being rewarded for. For instance, the target behavior may be to walk on a nice, loose leash. And he's walking nicely but he's also looking at something to his left, licking his lips at that moment and/or some other behaviors. Maybe he sees a dog and is calm. Now he gets a reward. How does he know (when first learning) which behavior it is that causes him to get food or some other reward? Until those other non-target behaviors are not happening when he's walking nicely on a loose leash, they're sort of muddling up the waters. Those must be eliminated before he "knows" the target behavior. And that behavior better have been worth it for some time. So when he messes up, doesn't obey and he gets a "correction" what does that even mean? That when he's hanging out with his owner, there's a chance something uncomfortable or painful or otherwise unpleasant _might_ happen. It can erode the trust he has in humans. 

Punishment makes more sense to humans because we understand what our culture's values and morals are. Dogs don't share our values and they are amoral so they don't have that ability to "blow you off." Or "he knows but he's being naughty." No, He's more interested in something else. Period. They're selfish. It's how they are. They don't do things because they're thinking all about how you'll feel and what you love. They do things because those things work. FOR THEM.

And I'm very glad you quit that trainer. Those people who are so vicious and attack innocent animals ought to be taken out and hung.:angry:


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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

It’s shocking how many puppy class teachers have never raised a puppy themselves. Make sure to ask.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I did not want my dog to jump on people, or other things either, like furniture. I hired an excellent trainer to teach me, and to work with him a bit, the first day I got him at 13 weeks of age. She never said no, ever. 

Within two days I had taught him 'off' to both voice and hand signal, which was immediately rewarded with treats, play, and snuggles. The next day I taught him 'paws up'. At first he looked confused as I had just taught him 'off'. But with demonstration and new verbal and hand signals,plus of course the rewards of treats, play, and snuggles, he soon happily got it. We had great fun practicing recalls, off, and paws up. Never a no, nor a cross word. 

The only consequence if he did not respond was zero reward. By day five he was learning 'up' to jump up on the furniture, and then later that day generalizing 'off' to get off furniture as well.

He has never jumped on anyone since. He is now 9 years old. 

The rest of his training has proceeded similarly (except for when I went to that awful trainer to learn new things and join his class). The word 'no' really means nothing, except maybe, you are being bad.

When someone just tells you 'no', what is your reaction? I see so many people use it with their dogs, and even their kids, who have no idea what they are being told 'no' for. 

Yes, you are correct, I do not go walking or playing with people who use no a lot to their dogs (or kids), or need prong collars to control their dogs.

I do have one command that includes the word no. That is 'no bark'. I also taught him 'speak', the opposite.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That's a great tool...to teach incompatible and opposite behaviors. It really helps drive home the point. Like you, I taught my dogs to stop barking by teaching them to "speak." That was my Chihuahuas. These dogs I've kind of slacked off with in that lesson. Got too much other fun stuff to do. But they stop fine when I ask them to "quiet."


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## jennkpeterson (Nov 24, 2018)

This has been such an interesting thread! Thanks for posting everyone! Tango and I enjoyed a lovely walk this morning using only a flat collar and no Gentle Leader. We are still struggling to start a walk without lots of pulling but after asking her 3 times to stop and waiting 10-15 seconds she was nearly perfect the full 30 minutes with intermittent treats. Our only other "big" behavior is when you have any kind of food away from the dinner table. She's not a counter surfer, but if you have a snack while sitting on the couch she can be very annoying...my husband in particular gets quite angry. I try and have Tango's treats handy in this situation and reward good behavior and ask for sit-stays. The boys in my house do not understand that pushing her away makes her think they are going to play and then she gets more and more revved up.

Tango knows: sit, down, stay, release, walk/let's go, stop (only used on walks), drop it, leave it, shake, high 5, wave, speak, come, wait is confusing to her so I typically use stay, time for bed, time to eat. 

I know I'm missing a step somewhere as Tango does not usually follow a command on the first go round unless there is a treat she can see. She will do all of her commands well when we are actively working on them, otherwise it's like she's assessing the situation and carefully deciding if she really should proceed with a "down, sit, etc." She cracks me up! 

I can't get in with a CPDT-KA trainer until mid March, which works out I guess since Tango's spay surgery is on Feb. 18th. We shall do our best until then. 

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## jennkpeterson (Nov 24, 2018)

Here's my darling girl today. [emoji1]









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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kontiki said:


> I did not want my dog to jump on people, or other things either, like furniture. I hired an excellent trainer to teach me, and to work with him a bit, the first day I got him at 13 weeks of age. She never said no, ever.
> 
> Within two days I had taught him 'off' to both voice and hand signal, which was immediately rewarded with treats, play, and snuggles. The next day I taught him 'paws up'. At first he looked confused as I had just taught him 'off'. But with demonstration and new verbal and hand signals,plus of course the rewards of treats, play, and snuggles, he soon happily got it. We had great fun practicing recalls, off, and paws up. Never a no, nor a cross word.
> 
> ...





Well I guess we won't miss walking with you either. You have misread what I said since I never said I use my pinch collars to control my dogs. They are tools that mean certain things in certain contexts. All collars and leashes are coercive no matter what they look like or what they are made of. And you can punish a dog with any tool or you can teach them effectively if you understand how the tool works. It is very similar to use of a word like no is a word that acquires a certain meaning. Since dogs don't actually understand any words we say to them NO could just as easily mean have a cookie as it means you made a mistake. Telling a dog, adult or child they made a mistake in a situation that could result in injury or death is just not anything to view as wrong. I would personally much rather grab a small child (or dog) about to chase a ball into traffic physically while yelling *NO* than let them die in front of me. It makes an impression and you explain the whole thing to the child after the acute disaster is averted. You train the dog to stop before they go in the street to as close as 100% reliable as you can.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

jennkpeterson said:


> This has been such an interesting thread! Thanks for posting everyone! Tango and I enjoyed a lovely walk this morning using only a flat collar and no Gentle Leader. We are still struggling to start a walk without lots of pulling but after asking her 3 times to stop and waiting 10-15 seconds she was nearly perfect the full 30 minutes with intermittent treats. Our only other "big" behavior is when you have any kind of food away from the dinner table. She's not a counter surfer, but if you have a snack while sitting on the couch she can be very annoying...my husband in particular gets quite angry. I try and have Tango's treats handy in this situation and reward good behavior and ask for sit-stays. The boys in my house do not understand that pushing her away makes her think they are going to play and then she gets more and more revved up.
> 
> Tango knows: sit, down, stay, release, walk/let's go, stop (only used on walks), drop it, leave it, shake, high 5, wave, speak, come, wait is confusing to her so I typically use stay, time for bed, time to eat.
> 
> ...





I think you missed randomizing your reinforcement schedule! I am glad you found a CPDT_KA trainer.


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## jennkpeterson (Nov 24, 2018)

True...the last trainer said constant treats for 3 weeks straight (or until trainer says otherwise) then fade. As I've made treats more random on walks Tango's behavior has improved. I'll change our structured training sessions and I bet I'll see changes. Thanks!

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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Constant treats for three weeks is way too long, especially for a smartie pants poodle. You might find this blog post by Ian Dunbar to be useful on this subject. https://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/dr-ian-dunbar/barking-wrong-tree-—-110-years


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You should find this useful. You don't start out with a variable reinforcement schedule. The dog needs continuous at first as you develop or shape a new behavior. And variable isn't totally random. Anyhow, you can read this:

https://www.clickertraining.com/node/670


I wouldn't go by the calendar. Go by the behavior. When the behavior is getting good and that's when you'll be shifting to a variable schedule. But it will be an average number of correct responses, not completely random. Then you can become more predicable again. But it's not a thing you set your clock to. It's a thing where you make a judgement call as to how the behavior is shaping.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Yes, the movement away from a treat every time works wonderfully! Become attuned to when you can see your dog has gotten it well, then start tapering off. It is sort of like gambling. People keep putting their money in the machine over and over because they have randomly won, and they never know when the next win is. It needs to be unpredictable.

In the future, if done correctly you may not need to use treats any more. If at some point they quit responding you can once again introduce random treats. And for some dogs play or affection actually works better than treats.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> It is very similar to use of a word like no is a word that acquires a certain meaning. Since dogs don't actually understand any words we say to them NO could just as easily mean have a cookie as it means you made a mistake. Telling a dog, adult or child they made a mistake in a situation that could result in injury or death is just not anything to view as wrong. I would personally much rather grab a small child (or dog) about to chase a ball into traffic physically while yelling *NO* than let them die in front of me. It makes an impression and you explain the whole thing to the child after the acute disaster is averted. You train the dog to stop before they go in the street to as close as 100% reliable as you can.


Apparently I have been unclear. I will try again. ... Using 'NO' in a bunch of different situations does not teach a dog, or a child, what TO do. If someone were to yell NO at you, how would you know what they mean? 

Question: this time does it mean 'don't jump?' , 'don't run?', don't bark?', or what?. 

Again, in my experience it is far better to use a command that has a specific meaning that you have trained/taught them so that the dog or the child knows what TO do. 

So, ....if they are jumping , then use 'Off'; ....if barking, then 'no bark' or 'quiet'; .... if running into the street, then 'Stop!'. ..... Or what ever the command is that you have trained them to respond to. Of course I would also grab them or their collar, IF I were close enough to do so!

Is anyone else understanding what I am getting at here?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kontiki said:


> Apparently I have been unclear. I will try again. ... Using 'NO' in a bunch of different situations does not teach a dog, or a child, what TO do. If someone were to yell NO at you, how would you know what they mean?
> 
> Question: this time does it mean 'don't jump?' , 'don't run?', don't bark?', or what?.
> 
> ...



I understand what you're getting at I believe. But here's the thing. Most people are indoctrinated with the idea that you have to say, "no." No means something to humans. And humans, I think sometimes forget that dogs are another species. 

"No" is just another meaningless word to dogs, just as "off" is or "come," "sit" and any other word they learn. Dogs learn by association. So if a word...any word isn't paired with a behavior, they won't connect the word to the behavior. "No" is a very general word...meaning (typically) to stop what you're doing...don't do it. It can apply to all kinds of things, not just one particular behavior. Usually the other words we use come to be very specific. Sit means sit. Come means come. Speak means bark. These mean something once they've had ample reinforcement with the association of the word and the behavior. The word, "no" is so general...just means stop doing what you're doing. Of course, the dog might be doing several things at once. But we expect him to know what we mean. Now...here's the clincher. If the owner or handler doesn't like a behavior, wants the dog to stop, the word, "no" must be associated with punishment. (Positive punishment..._adding_ something nasty to stop a behavior) just as positive reinforcement is something added to increase a behavior. And it works IF the owner is consistent and his/her timing is impeccable. Training is all about timing. The punishment and the word, "NO" must come exactly when the behavior is happening every-single-time. Most people are not consistent and don't deliver a punishment, but instead nag, carry on long conversations with their dog about the dog's transgression...things that can be construed as a good thing. So the behavior doesn't get extinguished. And they keep on and on for eternity saying "no" for the same behavior. Or... they might shout and intimidate their dog and the dog stops not only the target behavior, but all behaviors he may be doing at the time since he hasn't made an association yet with "no" and a specific behavior. He may be confused as to what the owner is talking about. But he stops behaving altogether just to be on the safe side. Threats, intimidation and pain is simply not needed to train a dog.

The word, "no" can also be taught to mean stop what you're doing as a directive...an instruction _without_ intimidation. You can use the word, "no" but politely and immediately show the dog what you DO want. Physically go to him and direct him to something else (often an opposite behavior that he can't do while he's doing the no no) and reinforce that. That's communication he can understand so much better. I use the word, "no" sometimes. It interrupts what they're doing, then I immediately show them an alternative and make sure that's really rewarded. It won't take long for the dog to choose for himself, use his own noggin the behavior that works best for him...and that will be the behavior you want, that you showed him. 

If my dog is about to do something dangerous, you bet I'll do whatever I think it will take to be sure to get his attention and stop him in his tracks. It doesn't matter if what I do might hurt him but less than what's in store for him if I don't stop him. If it will stop him from approaching a dangerous dog, a speeding car, a coyote or any number of scary things, I'll do whatever it takes. That is a management situation and NOT a training situation. There's a big difference. I grow weary of people who compare the two as being similar.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well said Poodlebeguiled I was thinking about the mistaken belief that human words have generalized meanings last night too.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes indeed. It takes a little while for dogs to connect a word to a behavior...gosh, there's all kinds of stuff they have to sift through first, including contexts, locations, positions...a process of elimination first. And they might appear to get it once or even more but it may be a coincidence. So, that's when dogs get punished a lot...the owner or trainer thinks they've got it since they seem to but they don't. They haven't completed the process of elimination quite yet. And this is why it's better to er on the side of caution and just show them again, reinforce and skip most of the positive punishment, no matter how mild. If they get ample reinforcement/correct timing (feed back) for the correct response, they WILL choose that once they get it down. They won't do the behavior that doesn't pay off eventually. 

(Lots of people already know this but some don't or are new to dogsAnother thing...when the word, "no" coupled with intimidation, ample enough to stop the dog from behaving is something that happens fairly often or regularly, that dog will tend to be a little worried about trying new things, new behaviors. He'll wait to be instructed for a lot of what he does. He won't become as smart or quick at figuring things out for himself if he doesn't feel free to experiment since he's been stopped so much. So, it's best to emphasize the prevention of unwanted behaviors before they happen (when possible) and reinforce behaviors one likes. If the dog doesn't know what to do, sometimes just waiting to see if the dog can figure it out by experimentation is interesting and cool to watch. Dogs that aren't punished a lot will try new things._ Does this work? If it doesn't, no sweat...I won't be frightened or hollered at or have my trachea yanked. _And if the behavior doesn't work because there's no pay off, (including self reward or from owner nagging) lol...he'll try something else until he hits on the one you want. And he gets praise, treats, ball, go outside... or whatever the dog is wanting at the time, that behavior will be repeated. If he doesn't try something, he can be shown or helped a little. But I love it when dogs figure things out using their own heads and they will so much better with less intimidation, scoldings, ouchies, etc.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Brenda Aloff who is a trainer of dogs and dressage equestrian is very well versed in the neurobiology of learning. Her take (based on research) is that it requires *6000 correct performances of a complex behavior* for most dogs to understand truly what that behavior requires and to couple it to an order or signal and to do the behavior reliably when told any different place they are asked to do it. Also in Adele Yunck's book Competition Obedience: A Balancing Act she makes reference to doing thousands of goes outs by themselves before coupling it to doing the jumps which the dog will also have done thousands of times.


Bottom line we have to be patient, provide support, but also give informational feedback when the dog is wrong so they don't learn the order will be given repeatedly before they comply like sit, sit, sit please, SIT, SIT, *SIT!!!!!!!!! *If the dog didn't sit the first time you might as well have said orange or banana. We need to understand that generalizing and attaching absract conceptual meaning is easy peasy for us, but very very hard for dogs.


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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

So true, human words have no meaning until the dog decides through experience what they mean. Mimi has come up with her own patois where “bye-bye” means “come here” & “thank you for helping” means “back off!”. Fine with me, I’m flexible.



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## doditwo (Nov 7, 2017)

No just pops out of my mouth sometimes. It’s so ingrained... but if I break down what I’m really saying in terms of what a dog would understand it’s this: pay attention to me. So when I say no I’ve trained myself to pair it immediately with an opposing easy Action command (sit is a good one) and then praise. “No” can be as innocuous as “look” if that’s how it’s used, the word itself has no meaning until the dog’s experience gives it. It’s precisely the experience that the dog will have that is our responsibility.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I am a user of the word "no" but only as an interrupter! To Molly, the word 'no' means "Stop and look at me!" and I have only really used it when she is off leash on one of our potty walks at the empty church and another off leash dog is spotted by her in the distance.......it keeps her from approaching the other dog. She stops, turns to look at me, waits for my next command which could (depending on the situation) be "come" "down" (so I can grab her leash)or the "OK" to greet the other dog (which is only after I get the other dog's owner's ok that their dog is also dog friendly.) Can't feel prouder than when the other owner comments on her nice behavior!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

LOL No pops out of my mouth too. Frankly whether it was at my kids or one of my dogs, it meant stop what your doing right now. Works for me. I do give my dogs added commands after they stop whatever it is they were doing. Renn now know "no cat", he will gently walk by and won't chase. If he is running off with something he shouldn't have out pops Renn NO! drop it. He does. Can't help myself the word no is ingrained. I also use a prong collar, I have for 30 years, no dog of mine ever had a injury or a mark from one either. Seemed to just work for me. My dogs seemed to choke themselves more using a flat collar and would pull and gag. On the prong they just stopped pulling and would look toward me. I did combine it with lure/positive training too, not sure that made a difference but I go with if its not broke..then don't try and fix it. So I guess training is a lot up to the individual .


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I am a user of the word "no" but only as an interrupter! To Molly, the word 'no' means "Stop and look at me!" and I have only really used it when she is off leash on one of our potty walks at the empty church and another off leash dog is spotted by her in the distance.......it keeps her from approaching the other dog. She stops, turns to look at me, waits for my next command which could (depending on the situation) be "come" "down" (so I can grab her leash)or the "OK" to greet the other dog (which is only after I get the other dog's owner's ok that their dog is also dog friendly.) Can't feel prouder than when the other owner comments on her nice behavior!


After_ knowing_ you for years on this forum, when you just now wrote that you say "no":nono: to Molly sometimes, I right away, before I read the rest of your post figured you weren't about to throttle her up one side and down the other so that your "no" would let her know she's about to be taken out behind the wood shed. :ahhhhh::beat-up::yell:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mufar42 said:


> LOL* No pops out of my mouth too.* Frankly whether it was at my kids or one of my dogs, it meant stop what your doing right now. Works for me. I do give my dogs added commands after they stop whatever it is they were doing. Renn now know "no cat", he will gently walk by and won't chase. If he is running off with something he shouldn't have out pops Renn NO! drop it. He does. Can't help myself the word no is ingrained. I also use a prong collar, I have for 30 years, no dog of mine ever had a injury or a mark from one either. Seemed to just work for me. My dogs seemed to choke themselves more using a flat collar and would pull and gag. On the prong they just stopped pulling and would look toward me. I did combine it with lure/positive training too, not sure that made a difference but I go with if its not broke..then don't try and fix it. So I guess training is a lot up to the individual .



"Nooooooooo" does more than pop out of my mouth sometimes too. I'm a singer and it comes from the diaphragm with a fair amount of robustness. I don't always practice what I preach, you see. That's all theory and the way dogs _should_ be trained and it's how I train...typically because I don't believe in intimidation or pain to get a dog to do what I want. What happens when I'm not setting out to train them is something like this: The door bell rings, one starts barking, the other joins in with voices that could shatter glass, (makes my voice sound like a church mouse) something's boiling over on the stove, I'm not ready for my guests to arrive, they're early and the dogs are slipping and sliding on the hardwood floor, racing to the door, (didn't train them to chill) two more dogs come galloping in when I open the door (my sister's) and I go, "sta-a-a-a-a-a-a-p!!!" "nooooooooooooooo!" "Quit!!!!" "OMG! I need a drink!" They know everything I am saying of course.:alberteinstein: Are they cowering? Heck no. They're just over the moon with joy at the arrival of their "cousins." They know me. And I am not beating them. But I'm not training them either. It isn't an emergency. It does no good at all. In fact, it probably gets them more excited. I'm just acting like a chimpanzee. Like Patricia McConnell says, we may know what we ought to do. But there are times when something happens and the scenario is not set up just right or something happens...and there's a catch to our reactions at times. "We're primates." That's me. :monkey:


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## jennkpeterson (Nov 24, 2018)

I'm a Speech-Language Pathologist and spend my days working with 2-6 year olds. I feel like I have a fairly good base for training behavior since that's basically what I'm doing when shaping different sounds...let alone just managing behavior in the delayed toddler/preschool population. I know that I need to adjust and add the "English as a second language" piece to my approach with Tango. Thanks for the links to things to read. I'm devouring all of the info!

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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Sometimes my spoo doesn't listen when I say something.. My favorite command now is 'what did I say?'. 90% of the time he will pause as if he is thinking, and then do what I had previously requested him to do. It is awesome to watch, almost like seeing his brain work. 

I am beginning to wonder if maybe he is smarter than I am


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

LOL I do the same "What did I say?" and I wait he looks t me and does whatever I previously said.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Needless to say when you ask your dog "what did I say?" they don't have a clue what the question actually means. It is cute and could probably be trained as part of a trick but I do think they can understand the inflection of a question having been asked as an indicator that you are looking to communicate with them and that will get them to look at you with that head tilt that says "what's up my person?" I can get pretty much the same look by saying nothing at all after a slow response to an order. Once I have attention back I will say oops or no that was not right and then reset the order.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I have a service dog, and in training him one of the top books recommended to me was "On Talking Terms With Dogs Calming Signals", by Turid Rugaas. She is from Norway. I was so impressed we actually have worked directly with her. Amazing.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kontiki said:


> I have a service dog, and in training him one of the top books recommended to me was "On Talking Terms With Dogs Calming Signals", by Turid Rugaas. She is from Norway. I was so impressed we actually have worked directly with her. Amazing.


That is so cool. You are lucky to have gotten to work with her. I love that book.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I can get pretty much the same look by saying nothing at all after a slow response to an order. Once I have attention back I will say oops or no that was not right and then reset the order.


Hmmm, by having taught them 'what did I say', we do not have to say 'oops', or say 'no that was not right' or reset the order. That is the whole point.

They simply stop and think, and then do as previously asked. It is not 100%, if they truly were not at all engaged, but it is very rare that he does not remember. 

Why should I need to say no, or oops?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kontiki said:


> Hmmm, by having taught them 'what did I say', we do not have to say 'oops', or say 'no that was not right' or reset the order. That is the whole point.
> 
> They simply stop and think, and then do as previously asked. It is not 100%, if they truly were not at all engaged, but it is very rare that he does not remember.
> 
> Why should I need to say no, or oops?


I will never understand why so many people think no or uh oh or oops are "evil" things to say to a dog or child or for that matter an adult. One of the last night's I was in class (we are on a break this week) a student sitting across from me was on the brink of burning herself (potentially badly). You better believe I emphatically told her "NO stop what you are doing right now" before I explained to her how badly she could have hurt herself. What was I supposed to do, watch her injure herself because he didn't know what she was doing?

Well since they don't understand oops or uh oh or no any more than they understand what did I say as abstractions and clearly the what did I say means you haven't done the right thing it doesn't really matter what we say. One could say apple, orange or banana to mean sit or down. What the words are is truly unimportant so long as they are used consistently to give clear information to the dog. If one of my dogs hears "oops" it mean exactly the same thing as "what did I say," but says it much more efficiently. You only have three seconds to give meaningful information. I'm not wasting my three seconds babbling at the dog, but since we have already beat this topic up somewhere else recently and you are not going to change your mind any more than I will mine we will just have to leave each of us to our own vocabulary.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I have had dogs that I didn’t want jumping on people. Well all of my dogs I guess. I have the person coming in the door, at the first jump, cross their arms in front and turn around quickly. When they turn back around if the dog jumps, they do it again. Once they can turn around without the dog jumping, then it gets praise and a hello and love. I’ve done it for my own dogs and my dogs wait in the floor for me when I get home. When strangers come in they sometimes will still jump, but they quickly learn it does no good with new people, either. 


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I will never understand why so many people think no or uh oh or oops are "evil" things to say to a dog or child or for that matter an adult.


Wow, I am totally boggled as to where "evil" comes into any kind of training at all. I sincerely hope I misread this.

We are all advocating kind affectionate training methods I assure you.


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