# Ormarpoodles



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I love Omar as well. I would KILL to have a pup from that litter. I love whites/creams.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Her dogs are HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

....I know. Hmmmm what to do.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Ooooh.. I think I have said before how I like these dogs..

Oooh, and Lola's dam is a half sister/aunty to my Saffy!!

Get one !!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Well... the Stud is NE carrier :rolffleyes:. Yes, some puppies will be carriers and some not and NONE effected - but it is something about "breeding carriers" that bothers me on the principal .

BUT - I am idealist LOL. 

If I wanted a white, I would go with Unique breeder any day though  !


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Well... the Stud is NE carrier :rolffleyes:. Yes, some puppies will be carriers and some not and NONE effected - but it is something about "breeding carriers" that bothers me on the principal .
> 
> BUT - I am idealist LOL.
> 
> If I wanted a white, I would go with Unique breeder any day though  !


Hmmm... did not know that about the Stud..
I haven't really looked into this breeder much..

But yes, gotta love Unique!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

What's interesting is both breeders have similar Dams/Sires in their lines.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Well... the Stud is NE carrier :rolffleyes:. Yes, some puppies will be carriers and some not and NONE effected - but it is something about "breeding carriers" that bothers me on the principal .
> 
> BUT - I am idealist LOL.
> 
> If I wanted a white, I would go with Unique breeder any day though  !



Lots of the Whites, including the Unique dogs, are NE carriers. If you did not breed them, you would lose some very nice dogs from the gene pool.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thats all fine and dandy - I am sure there are some "very nice dogs" that are not carriers. 

Since, thanks good, I do not intend to show or breed - I can "indulge" in taking a puppy from a litter with no "carriers"


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Thats all fine and dandy - I am sure there are some "very nice dogs" that are not carriers.
> 
> Since, thanks good, I do not intend to show or breed - I can "indulge" in taking a puppy from a litter with no "carriers"


Absolutely. I'm just saying that when it comes to breeding, you have to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water. With careful testing and breeding, a breeder could eliminate NE from their line in a couple of generations.

I stop at the idea of breeding an Affecteds, though (although NE affected don't live long enough to breed). This simply creates whole litters carriers and I think that is unnecessary.

Along with this, I think all breeders should test for NE and never breed carrier to carrier. I had one breeder tell me that she didn't care if she bred NE Affected puppies since they died early and it didn't affect the end buyer. I thought this was horrible and that it totally discounted the suffering of the affected puppies who died from NE seizures.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

"Along with this, I think all breeders should test for NE and never breed carrier to carrier. I had one breeder tell me that she didn't care if she bred NE Affected puppies since they died early and it didn't affect the end buyer. I thought this was horrible and that it totally discounted the suffering of the affected puppies who died from NE seizures."


Yes : (((, I remember vividly when you announced that in one of the threads before : (((. I was shocked beyond the words could describe so I think I did not even make a comment at that time :smow:. 

I always think that "I heard it all" , but still discover a terrible breeding practices along the way of my search :smow: 

Having such a powerful tool as genetic tasting and not using it for the advantage of all involved is incredibly unethical, IMO. 

I still do not think that "just carriers" should be bread unless absolutely necessary for some strange reason - like we have a Stud that is Int Ch and Westminster BIS for 5 years in a row !!! If carrier is bread with non -carrier - some pups will be carriers again. NOW - who is to guarantee that one of those pups will not come into the hands of irresponsible person who will breed it to carrier - I mean , as we can see even show dog person is doing it (in your example), right ??? : ((( Imagine BYB ??? It is so incredibly cruel IMO, so many fantastic dogs out there that are NOT NE carriers - why use the carrier ??? Especially a STUD ????????????????????? Semen can be shipped allll across the other side of the world nowadays . 

NO - IMO , it is just "cutting corners" >: [ and "costs" ...


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Just to add - NE testing is one that I rarely see done, actually :smow:

So, at least Ormar DID test and posted results :rolffleyes:- I want to give them some credit for that !!!!! 

Since the issue "resurfaced" here , I checked some sites and could not believe it ! For example - one breeder is using a "new champion" for breeding this spring although her Stud produced 5 NE carriers IN ONE LITTER( litter of 6) and neither he or the dam are still tested for NE to this day !!!!! At least there is nothing listed at OFA ! "New Ch" has NOTHING listed at OFA O-O ( I mean NONE of the tests ....)!!!!

I guess - they can always say - we "did not know" :fish:


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

I would LOVE a pup from this litter.

Have to hurry up and do a DNA test on Vaka so I know if she is NE carrier or clear.

I can't take the change of buying a puppy that could be carrier if Vaka is also carrier.

No point in waiting did just order the test now from OFFA


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

While I can understand your frustration over the NE carrier thing, Wishpoo... there is nothing wrong with breeding an NE carrier to a NE clear. There are SO MANY other issues that are FAR WORSE! DNA tests, like it, help with the decision making... but doesn't mean they cannot be bred.
And perhaps 'they' were tested but did not pay to put it on OFA's website...or their parents were tested and were clear? 
Still... with your example, someone was a carrier, obviously. But don't forget, being a carrier is not a death sentence.
When I was on my search for a silver or white Ch stud on the west coast, years ago, very few were NE clear. If they were healthy, with long lived relatives and excellent temperament and sound... why shouldn't they pass on their great traits?
Karen


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I agree with cbrand and desertreef.

If we where to stop breeding dogs that where carriers or dogs that produce a disease out of so many puppies. The gene pool would be so small that there would be only a few dogs to breed with. 

Breeders just have to breed away from diseases and do health checks.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

While I think we should be utilizing the test, I would certainly breed a carrier to a non carrier.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Well.... that particular breeder KNEW that all puppies were carriers at 8 weeks and probably had a reason to test ALL of them at that age - wouldn't you think ????:fish: Also kept that fact as "hush-hush"(and she did - was asked repeatedly about results and was telling she still do not have them and than they there were on the OFA actually weeks before she claimed she does not have them !!!!!) - again - if that is soo OK to be a carrier , than why she kept it under the rug ???? O-o ???


Yes - as Desertreef said - before the test was available, HUGE number of dogs were carriers, but now it obviously is not the case, since I saw a many that were tested clear . Obviously somebody is doing the right thing and not breeding "anyway" :rolffleyes: 

I know that a carrier is not affected with NE, but who is to say that he/she does not have predisposition for some other neurological disorder or even some completely at the first site "unrelated" disorder ??? Genes usually do not control a single trait. 

The population of standard poodles is steadily growing and since line breeding became less popular, genetic diversity is bigger than ever . I do not agree that genetic pool would suffer at all !!!!

One can order a semen from Australia and Sweden for example and get fantastic genetic diversity using Int Ch that is not a carrier !!!!! Than why use a carrier that is a so-so dog anyway ???? Ehhh.... You know, some days I get so worked-up about "spoo rights" that I have an urge to become a breeder just to prove that one can have a HEALTHY , non-carrier Champions LMAO 

PEACE TO ALL !!!!! :beauty:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> Well.... that particular breeder KNEW that all puppies were carriers at 8 weeks and probably had a reason to test ALL of them at that age - wouldn't you think ????:fish: Also kept that fact as "hush-hush"(and she did - was asked repeatedly about results and was telling she still do not have them and than they there were on the OFA actually weeks before she claimed she does not have them !!!!!) - again - if that is soo OK to be a carrier , than why she kept it under the rug ???? O-o ???


Just sounds like a breeder I would not deal with or trust anyways lol You know when I say something I am saying it if as the breeder is being honest.






> The population of standard poodles is steadily growing and since line breeding became less popular, genetic diversity is bigger than ever . I do not agree that genetic pool would suffer at all !!!!



It will when you have breeders with the mindset of only breed CH to Ch and the breeders who want to use the top studs and don't limit the stud services on their dogs. I can give you an example of one stud that comes to mind that is making the gene pool smaller for a certain color  pm tho shhh lol



> One can order a semen from Australia and Sweden for example and get fantastic genetic diversity using Int Ch that is not a carrier !!!!! Than why use a carrier that is a so-so dog anyway ???? Ehhh.... You know, some days I get so worked-up about "spoo rights" that I have an urge to become a breeder just to prove that one can have a HEALTHY , non-carrier Champions LMAO


What I noticed is that most of these import dogs or dogs in other countries are from america lol so the diversity thing can happen and can't happen.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Sorry......has this jumped to another breeder or are we talking about Ormar in th recent mentions of said breeder? (I got a little lost lol)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Just sounds like a breeder I would not deal with or trust anyways lol You know when I say something I am saying it if as the breeder is being honest.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha,ha,ha!!! Thinking I know who you are talking about!!!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> Sorry......has this jumped to another breeder or are we talking about Ormar in th recent mentions of said breeder? (I got a little lost lol)


Jumped to another breeder... see post #13...  C'MON, Olie!!! Keep UP, already!! You must not watch enough soap opera dramas - it helps you keep sharp on things like this! :lol:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Jumped to another breeder... see post #13...  C'MON, Olie!!! Keep UP, already!! You must not watch enough soap opera dramas - it helps you keep sharp on things like this! :lol:


hmm:rolffleyes: OK, apparently not - I still don't see a second breeder mentioned.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Olie said:


> hmm:rolffleyes: OK, apparently not - I still don't see a second breeder mentioned.


hahah Olie sorry for the confusion I was just throwing out examples and ideas I. I am not talking about Ormar poodles.


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## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi, what does NE stand for? I am getting a pup next weekend and know I am worried. Thanks. Ormar poodles are beautiful.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Neonatal Encephalopathy, and there is also NEWS, which is Neonatal Encephalopathy with seizures.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> hahah Olie sorry for the confusion I was just throwing out examples and ideas I. I am not talking about Ormar poodles.


OK Cool - that's what I needed to know. 

Day from hell again lol - gosh it sucks when you got to go to work


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> OK Cool - that's what I needed to know.
> 
> Day from hell again lol - gosh it sucks when you got to go to work


That isn't good. Sending warm cyber hugs to help with your bad day!!:grouphug:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

no..no..no LOL "the Big Bad Wolf" is not Ormar 


:viking: LOL

PS: "second breeder" was never mentioned by the name ...or "third" one for that matter LOL


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Well.... that particular breeder KNEW that all puppies...than why she kept it under the rug ???? O-o ???
> 
> I don't know who you are talking about, (but would like to know...lol!) and I don't know why she would keept it 'under the rug'. There isn't anything to be ashamed of, if she has a carrier.
> 
> ...


Ah yes, Peace!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> Well... the Stud is NE carrier :rolffleyes:. Yes, some puppies will be carriers and some not and NONE effected - but it is something about "breeding carriers" that bothers me on the principal .
> 
> BUT - I am idealist LOL.
> 
> If I wanted a white, I would go with Unique breeder any day though  !


Hi Wishpoo:

I am in total agreement with you that some pups would be NE clear while others carriers. I also would like to mention that "Unique Poodles" are waiting for a female show puppy from my Lola X Cole upcoming litter, which I am honored they decided to aquire and ad to thier breeding program in future. They are knowledgeable well respected reputable breeders. They know Cole's value as a stud dog and expressed their wonderful opinion about him on several occasions, both at PCA when Cole won his class and a year later was instrumental in his dam winning the Standard Brood Bitch (out of 8 bitches) at PCA, followed by his U.S. show career, completing his U.S. title with multiple group wins from the classes.
Unique is very excited at the prospect of this upcoming litter and will be getting their show puppy bitch circa third week of October. I expect wonderful things from puppies out of this litter as 4 will be shown to their conformation title, here and in the U.S. to include 2 which will be placed with two well known professional groomers in Ontario, Cda. and will be participating in grooming competitions but not bred from. Apart from Unique, and myself, I am placing all puppies resulting from this upcoming litter in show and pet homes strictly on a non-breeding agreement/contract. I am very careful to whom my puppies are sold, and actually prefer to sell them as pets rather than show dogs, unless I am very sure of the person who wishes to aquire an Ormar show puppy and am 150% convinced they are reputable and honest following receipt of several reference letters I require from all clients I interview, both at my house and on line. I will post photos of this ice white litter once they are on the ground. I will also post a photo of both pick of litter female and male out of Lola's last year's litter. I was told they are the best I ever bred. They are both black and very pretty. The male finished in 2 days at 6 mos. and 10 days old undefeated with multiple group placement wins, and the female which went to the U.S. stud owner is now pointed from the Junior puppy class. Hope you like the photos of these two pups, OH GOODNESS If I can only know how to upload them, LOLOL


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

One can order a semen from Australia and Sweden for example and get fantastic genetic diversity using Int Ch that is not a carrier !!!!! Than why use a carrier that is a so-so dog anyway ???? Ehhh.... You know, some days I get so worked-up about "spoo rights" that I have an urge to become a breeder just to prove that one can have a HEALTHY , non-carrier Champions LMAO 

PEACE TO ALL !!!!! 

Whishpoo:

And who is the SO SO DOG you are referring to ?

I sincerely hope your comment is NOT in regards to my boy , "Cole", MBIS, BISS, MRBIS Am. Can. Ch. Allure Ormar No Regrets . I will give you the benefit of a doubt it isnt........


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

By the time I made a "so -so" comment discussion was directed toward general breeding practices and NE in general.

The benefit of a doubt was completely in place since I was not referring to your dog .


Hope you find the way to post your puppy photos - I am sure many members wold be very, very happy to see and admire them.

I like to use Photobucket for picture hosting - very user friendly  If you already have a hosting site and have a problem of another nature, let us know and somebody will definitely have an idea of how to help you


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> One can order a semen from Australia and Sweden for example and get fantastic genetic diversity using Int Ch that is not a carrier !!!!!


I would also like to comment on using a dog from europe.

First of all there are many great dogs in Europe and some of the Swedish dogs are stunning. But there are not many dogs there tested for NE. 
I think that we tend to do less testing then Americans.
Don't know why that is maybe we think our dogs are healthier and free of all of this. Or maybe we are just ignorant or don't know any better.
Some dogs in eastern europe do not have any test done before breeding..

Maybe the American breeder are just overdoing it.
In OFA there are 13 dogs that are carriers for vWD and none affected.
with the vWD according to the OFA this seems to be more in silver lines.
There are very few with any thyroid problems but over 1600 who are clear.

was it not you wishpoo that was dissing people for breeding a dog before two that did not have his OFA hips done?
Well in europe, like I said many times before you can get your dog hip scored after he turns one  So is that now ok since it is a dog from europe?

I personally feel its just fine.

Out of the 20 litters advertised on the Poodles in Scandinavia site there is only one breeder who says that the dog is NE tested and guess what that is a breeder in USA and only the sire is NE tested not the dam.

Most of them have hips and eyes done, some SA, one silver boy had vWD test.

Hopefully lots of people do test but do not state them in there ad's 

And I would like to state that I am not dissing European breeders. I have dogs from Germany, Sweden and Finland. And one who is born here but parents from Denmark and Sweden. And they are all at the moment very healthy.

And I would not skip buying a puppy from a breeder that did not NE test. I would just NE test the dog myself. Like I have done with all my three dogs.

I think dog people need to keep an open mind  We tend to judge to much and I am no angle either  We all have different opinions.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Whishpoo

The benefit of a doubt was extended to you because I had wanted to find out from you who the SO SO DOG you are referring to is. 
My curiosity stems from reading your post in which you clearly were discussing ORMAR poodles and in specific COLE. You also state Ormar (I assume myself) is not the "big bad wolf"...While realizing you are not familiar with the bad wolf breeder, I do somehow feel you are quite familiar with the name of the dog you labelled a SO SO DOG, which brings me to again extend to you the benefit of a doubt and ask you who the so so dog is.
I would really appreciate finding out. I am curious

I would like you to know that your comments in that thread are on the internet (if you google Ormar you will be able to see Poodle Forum link associated with my kennel prefix) . May I suggest that next time you post anything good or bad about other breeders that you are careful about your choice of words, since many reputable well known stand. poodle breeders do lurk and read some posts on PF. Matter of fact this is how I found out about Poodle Forum when (to my dismay) even before becoming a member of PF, I saw your posts about Ormar , Cole and your referring to my dog as a SO SO dog. The internet is a tool which can make or break reputations.. So we must exercise caution with all that we say on the net. MHO and I hope you do not take this personally.

Oh by the way, I did post photos of the two black puppies, it was on the thread Jak attempted to help me (and succeeded and so my two pups photographed at 5.5 weeks are there on that thread). 
Thanks for wanting to help me out with Photobucket much appreciated.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Winnow said:


> Maybe the American breeder are just overdoing it.
> In OFA there are 13 dogs that are carriers for vWD and none affected.
> with the vWD according to the OFA this seems to be more in silver lines.
> There are very few with any thyroid problems but over 1600 who are clear.
> ...


Personally, I do not believe that you can overdo health testing. Health testing will help you make good choices in your breeding program.

I do not know enough about Pennhip to judge, but I personally would not want to have the stud be less than 2 years old. Just because they can breed that young does not necessarily mean they should, they are still growing at that age. I believe that both the bitch and dog should be fully developed before any breeding, but that is my personal opinion. I respect Ora, she has taught me much, and has answered and pointed me in the right direction for any question I have asked. I have an Ormar dog, Baldr and he is beyond amazing, Cole is his uncle, and next year I will be getting another boy from Ora, a white boy from a litter that Cole will be the daddy of.

We all have our personal opinions and things that are important to us in a poodle. No breeding program is foolproof, no matter how careful you are, that is just nature. I have met many Ormar poodles, anywhere from 12 years and down, and I have seen how Ora cares for all these dogs, and keeps in contact with the owners. Just breeding a good poodle isn't enough, it is also the personal commitment that the breeder shows in these poodles that is important.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

In response to Winnow:

The reason we do not hear of many dogs in Europe (specifically stand. poodles) being afflicted with the genetic ailments our N. Amer. dogs are is because the Europeans do not fully genetically test their dogs prior to breeding as we do here.
The reasons are: 1. Some simply do not care,and breed without ever testing inspite of some tests being available to them, 
2. A number of countries in Europe do not have the means with which to test for NE and VwD since they are done by DNA, but I believe that it is very simple to request the DNA kit for Vwd and NE from OFA and send it to Europe IF indeed a breeder there cares about the breed's health. 3. Many vets in Europe are either not equipped to do some of the genetic testing and/or are unfamiliar with them. This also can be remedied. The simple solution would be to discuss how the test is done with a N. American vet who is familiar with doing NE and VwD testing. Alas , afterall it is a simple cheek swab and it is no rocket science to know how to take cells from the inside of a dog's cheek, put it in the plastic container and send it by fed ex or other safe shipping methods to the states to be analyzed in such case the country in europe does not have the means with which to do DNA testing.
My opinion: If there is a will there is a way. European countries are not third world countries and certainly if they have vets practicing there, doing surgeries, etc.. on dogs no doubt they can do such simple DNA tests ordering the cheek swabs from OFA and introducing them to European breeders making sure they all do the NE and VwD as well as other testing before embarking on a breeding program.
So many standards in Europe were afflicted with genetic ailments but since some European breeders do not do any genetic testing or if they do then only the hips (big deal) then ofcourse they would not know the symptoms of the genetic ailment their dog comes down with. So many SA cases have been simply attributed to bad thyroid function... which would of been proven erroneous if the breeder had done the SA skin punch Bx. and found out it is not the thyroid which is the culprit for their dog losing its coat but a case of SA. I had a dog who was on a lease to Germany and was campaigned there for 2 years (Knight) and I also recently shipped sperm from Cole to Holland. The condition for me sending my dog to be campaigned and used at stud in Europe was that ALL bitches without exception are tested, and when sending Cole's sperm to Europe I insisted on getting all genetic testing on the bitch including NE and VwD which I got and I respect the breeder in Europe who took the steps to make sure her line is thoroughly tested before any breeding done.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi Snorrpodel:

I really appreciate your nice comments and thank you.
I have tremendous respect for you and your tenacity in finding out as much as possible about standard poodle genetic ailments and actually taking the initiative to ask me where to look and my directing you to both Poodle Pedigree Data Base as well as Poodle Health Registry.
As a pet owner , not exhibitor or breeder, you amaze me, Lisa.. you are involving yourself with the breed and trying to find out as much as possible about it. It is people like yourself who should embark on showing and breeding stand. poodles. I am honored you chose an Ormar puppy to love and will be glad to place another in your home next year.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> Well... the Stud is NE carrier :rolffleyes:. Yes, some puppies will be carriers and some not and NONE effected - but it is something about "breeding carriers" that bothers me on the principal .


I am not a breeder--just a picky puppy buyer like Wishpoo (well...not as picky, since I actually bought a puppy, LOL). But I agree with Carol and Desert Reef that carrier status should not be a show stopper. Let me put it this way, Wishpoo--what if a breeder has two boys to choose from, and the NE carrier also has a safer pedigree, with less evidence of untestable nasties like AD and SA behind him? 

I think we can all learn from the terrible experience of mini and toy breeders with PRA until the DNA test came along. Mini lines in particular suffered terribly from fear and innuendo, and entire gorgeous lines of dogs disappeared. A DNA test introduces the ability to NOT throw the baby out with the bathwater...so why continue to throw the baby out once you have the test? JMO...


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> I would like you to know that your comments in that thread are on the internet (if you google Ormar you will be able to see Poodle Forum link associated with my kennel prefix) . May I suggest that next time you post anything good or bad about other breeders that you are careful about your choice of words, since many reputable well known stand. poodle breeders do lurk and read some posts on PF. Matter of fact this is how I found out about Poodle Forum when (to my dismay) even before becoming a member of PF, I saw your posts about Ormar , Cole and your referring to my dog as a SO SO dog.


I think Wishpoo was pretty clear that she was NOT talking about Ormar poodles when she said that a So So NE carrier was being used as a stud. 

Yes the Internet is a very powerful tool but I think this board has done an amazing job of educating owners and future buyers about Poodles. As I am sure you know, well-known in the Poodle world does not always equal reputable. I think a good and honest breeder never has anything to worry about.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Cbrand:

In response to your comments, I DO consider myself a VERY reputable, conscientious , knowledgeable and ethical breeder. Anyone who knows me or purchased a puppy from me will attest to this.
I always endeavored to be honest and upfront with anyone questioning me about my line, genetic mishaps and the good bad and ugly in a lump sum.. I never worried (as you implied) , like some other breeders do about divulging genetic mishaps , on the contrary, I encourage my clients to ask me about problems in my line and when they do, they are told the truth.
I am not at all worried about Whishpoo's comments about my (SO SO) NE CARRIER DOG, a statement undoubtedly referring to "Cole" My statement to Whishpoo about being careful was not made in regards to my boy being a carrier of NE, not in the least, since you and others are aware his NE Carrier status is openly advertised on my website on the PUPPIES page. My comments to Whishpoo about being careful what she posts in public forum concerns her denigrating/uncalled for remark about my boy. I hope this explains my point, and honestly lets not pursue this further as it is a moot point. Whishpoo has her own opinion of my dog as well as other breeders' dogs.. She is entitled to her opinion, however when her opinion is unsubstantiated it becomes a problem. Please no need to reply. Lets move on.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Feralpoodle:

Very well put .. Thanks for making the point that a great dog inspite of having an NE carrier status should not be disregarded & thrown out with the bath water.

I know of many NE CLEARS I would never dare use at stud given what is in their pedigree (SA, AD, AIHA, EPI, etc..) 
I know however of several NE CARRIERS that I would gladly use at stud without having the worries I would breeding to the aforementioned NE Clears.

There is an expression among poodle breeders..... a dog does not walk on his head. They refer to a poodle having a bad head, round eye, and less than pleasing facial expression , but the rest of the dog is beautiful, correct and sound.

Would I use such a dog? .... Yes, I would if he complements my bitch. One or two negative features in an otherwise stunning standard stud dog, is not a reason to discard of the dog. Reputable, and knowledgeable breeders with many years experience will attest to this.

Same is with NE Carrier status. IF the dog's pedigree is valuable and the breeder feels comfortable with it, then NE carrier status especially now that we have the DNA means with which to test for NE status, should not force us to discard of valuable pedigrees of NE carrier dogs. 

I would also like to comment about Whishpoo being SO PICKY and careful about her choice breeder and I wholeheartedly agree that a prospective client should exhaust all means, extensively do their homework, and research the breeder and their dogs thoroughly prior to purchase. Many breeders do not have their genetic tests advertised on the OFA site. Some consider paying $15.00 for each test to be posted on OFA site simply too expensive and unreasonable. I do not have all of Cole's genetic testing advertised on OFA site, however I can assure whoever is in doubt that I do have Cole's and all my other dogs/bitches Current genetic testing results in my posession and in each dog/bitch's files. These genetic testing are shown to my puppy buyers and copies of same given to them when they purchase the puppies. Some clients dont care to have them while others do. Not having genetic testing advertised on OFA site does not mean the breeder has not done them, it simply means that the breeder does not find it is justified for OFA to charge $15-$20.00 U.S. to post all the tests on the site. I certainly will never feel that a breeder is unethical if they do not advertise their genetic testing results with OFA, I would however find them irresponsible if when I ask them to produce the 7 genetic testing done on stand. poodle today, they dont. I also want to comment that I do not feel it is advisable to purchase a puppy site unseen. So many websites profess ethics, sincerity and breeding ethically. The key to verifying the truth to these claims is to go visit the breeder (no matter the distance), because you are looking at a 12-15 years investment and you want to make sure that your puppy was properly raised and had a good start in life before coming to you.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I stated it once and I will state it again - that I DID NOT REFFER to Oramar Stud when I was discussing "so-so" dogs and I wrote in length about "big bad wolf" (and never named a "wolf" since I am not about "naming" anybody) . Who ever wonders about who that was can do their own research - all is listed on the OFA site. You asked me twice about this matter - so I am responding to it although later you said that "no response is needed", so I am confused little bit about it all.

Yes, I had misfortune to stumble onto many "wolves" so far , but I stated *very clearly* in my post that you are NOT the one (you saw my post since you made reference to it). 

I also gave you a credit for posting results and I wish other breeders follow your path in that respect since it shows integrity, honesty and guts, in my opinion. 

I am very careful of what I say and post and I stand firmly behind my believes. 

Whoever is long enough on this forum knows also that I have VERY sharp eye for correctness , balance and beauty of a standard poodle and *to even assume that I would think that your dog is so-so would be an oxymoron.
*

I know that many breeders are reading this forum, and it is my hope that they do since many health issues are discussed and promotion of ethical breeding is of outmost importance. As a puppy buyer, I was lied to more times than I can count , and that is what prompted me to actually do my own research and being very cautious . 

*Winnow*- I do not "diss" nor use "slang" words, it is not my style . I do not agree with breeding young dogs and it does not make me a bad person or proves that I have a wrong approach.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> I also would like to mention that "Unique Poodles" are waiting for a female show puppy from my Lola X Cole upcoming litter, which I am honored they decided to aquire and ad to thier breeding program in future. They are knowledgeable well respected reputable breeders.
> 
> *I will post photos of this ice white litter once they are on the ground. I will also post a photo of both pick of litter female and male out of Lola's last year's litter. I was told they are the best I ever bred. They are both black and very pretty*.


How exciting that Unique chose you  - she came highly recommended as well as you did when it comes to beautiful white poodles with excellent temperments. 

I suppose when I spoke with you, I liked what I heard and seen. Not that I didn't feel this way with Unique - but I feel you must connect with a breeder as you would anyone that you would hope to trust and share over the years as the dogs grow. And I enjoyed all that you shared with me. Thank you! 

I cannot wait to see the pictures! Cole and Lola are just stunning. Jenna is a looker too.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Whishpoo:
Ok...lets drop our swords LOL.. no need to get that serious about a few sentences, so just lets forget about this back and forth fencing.
I understand where you are coming from, I really do. I was in your situation 18 years ago when I started my search in stand. poodles. I purchased my first two poodles from a nice lady but did not have much success with what she sold me. The male was dog aggresive and not a show quality as she claimed he was and the female bloated just before I wanted to special her (she came to me as a 2 yrs old adult)... So I TOO was burnt. When I embarked on my quest 17 years ago to look for a reputable breeder and quality standard poodle I invested close to U.S. $700 and I recall the figure because my husband reminded me of it many years later, LOLOL
When I called many breeders in the U.S. (I only wanted a U.S. breeder) I was appalled to learn of how badly some spoke of others in the breed... and quite frankly I can tell you that I have learnt almost nothing from then with the exception of a very few. I then decided I would learn things on my own and I recall sitting in my family room in my pyjamas studying how to read pedigrees not knowing then that the male is on top of hte pedigree and the female at the bottom.. ALL was new to me and I had no one to teach me. I did it all on my own and through my own efforts and finances. I was also lied to, and not told the truth inspite of seeking it so I DO KNOW where you are coming from. When I embarked on a breeding program I made a pact with myself to always put myself in my clients' shoes and feel the way they feel and remembering how disappointed I was with some of the breeders I spoke to in past I swore to never be ellusive and non communicating or hide facts from prospective clients or breeders who wish to find more about my line.
At times my outspokeness and honesty and downright mouth piece has caused me to get in trouble, but at least I was able to live with myself and look myself in the mirror for choosing the path of honesty about me, my dogs and how I breed. I can in all honesty say that I am afraid to call a stud owner these days and ask her what is in her line from fear and apprehension of how my questions will be received as SO MANY breeders out there are non communicative about their dogs, the ailments in their line etc.... 
They and you as a prospective stand. poodle owner must understand that NO ONE IS BLAMING a breeder when they are honest BUT happen to produce a puppy or puppies that have had the misfortune to be genetically compromised. Most breeders I know with the exception of some that literally do not give a darn about the health in the breed and strictly do breed to amass as many ch. titles to ad to their kennel prefix, most are conscientious and do not sit at a table contemplating breeding mishaps. Trust me when I say that with each litter I breed my heart skips and jumps whenever I get a phone call from a client I have not heard from in a while short or long and I get a nauseated sensation thinking the worst. I can tell you how painful it is for a breeder who CARES to hear a client on the other side of the receiver crying their eyes out telling you as a breeder how much pain the loss of their dog causes them. How can anyone with a heart not feel for a person who pours their heart out and aches for a puppy they thought they will enjoy and love until old age. I have been there a few times, and I know how this feels.
I agree that you want to get the BEST poodle there is, to be affiliated with the BEST most ETHICAL and CONSCIENTIOUS BREEDER there is on this earth, but you ALSO must understand that WE BREEDERS are NOT gods, also we do not sit at a table contemplating breeding nasty genetic mishaps, bad temperaments and other issues. Most of us try our best to be careful and judicial with our breeding choices and if we do happen to paint ourselves into a bad corner some of us are honest FIRST with ourselves and then with our clients and other breeders about producing mishaps.
You must have fallen prey to unscrupoulos breeders who make a buck by lying to a prospective client and not being honest first with themselves which is more important than being honest with a client. You most likely called upon the wrong type breeders and were as a result lied to . There are many like yourself who have been duped by breeders professing to be ethical but when the time comes to dish out, do nothing to substantiate their quality as breeders.
Whishpo... YOu will NEVER find the PERFECT breeder as much as you feel you one day may.. There is no such a thing. Breeding is a crap shoot, we are dealing wtih a myriad of genes, chromosomes etc... and unless we have the gene markers to identify genetic mishaps we as breeders good or bad will always work in the dark.. as such until such time we have allocated the gene markers for all the genetic diseases and autoimmune problems afflicting our standard poodles of today we as breeder AND BUYERS are feeling mostly in the dark. My opinion is that it is more important for you or any client when researching to buying a puppy to go to the breeder and speak to their veterinarians and ask ask ask many many letters of reference from puppy buyers who purchased that breeder's puppies for as long asa 9 years if possible. ONCE you amass all this information you will no longer feel in the dark. Try doing this and I can assure you that within a year you WILL have your standard puppy to love.
I did not even re read my post as it is alas so long I just hope that my point gets across to you Whishpoo since you seem to have been so burnt by other breeders and I am sure you will not be the first NOR the last. 
Good luck in your search and trust me THERE ARE GOOD ethical and HONEST breeders out there and I Hope you find one .


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi Olie:
I do remember our pleasant conversation. You are knowledgeable and very nice person. It was so nice to have this talk with you. so many of these posts I NOW UNDERSTAND stem from people on this forum who dont really know what to do or who to go to. HUGE fancy websites mean nothing as I said to whispoo, go to the breeder's house, speak to as many clients who purchased puppies from her for the past 9 or MORE years, get a feel of the puppies, adult dogs see if the breeder has them in the basement of in her/his house sleeping in the house and on the breeder's bed or in their bedroom at night. Little things like this shed light not only on how the breeder houses their dogs but also the care they provide to the newborn pups. Little details like this for example can make or break someone's decision to get a puppy somewhere.

I LOVE Unique poodles and I think Joan McFadden and the co breeder of Lola Kathy Marker are wonderful ethical and very reputable. I am honored they want a puppy out of Lola and Cole and I am looking forward to end of October when they may come here or depend on the U.S. handler's opinion who will be coming here when the pups are 8 weeks old to pick the puppy for his client and also look at the pups for Unique. Lets hope that there will be a nice puppy there for them. They house all their dogs in their home.. NO kennel there and they are HIGH on my respect list.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

_Dear Mrs. Marcus,

I want to thank you for your heartfelt post and for taking time to write it in such detail and depth.

I believe every word you wrote about your own experience when you started looking for a puppy since it is obviously a common practice to either not disclose all of the facts or to make them seem "irrelevant". 

There is NO line with no problems out there - what makes a difference is an integrity and expertise of a breeder that knows of how to make the best possible choice health-vise, confirmation-vise and temperament-vise to assure that future generation is the really best what can be achieved and one that makes no compromises no matter what.

Nobody is perfect - not even me LOL ; ))) 

Excellent breeders are "out there" , there is no doubt about that 

Thanks one more time for your input and for sharing your experience and especially for taking time to really see and understand what my frustration was all about in this whole thread.

I sincerely hope that you will stay on this forum and continue to share your knowledge and expertise !!! : ))) 

Looking forward to see your new beautiful litter  _


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Wishpoo:
I am glad our swords are down and that we can now concentrate on more important posts, relevant to this forum.
I would also like to mention that I firmly believe there are stand. poodle breeders out there who would like to be more open and honest about not only their own line but other breeders' lines but have to keep their mouth shut from fear of being outcast and labelled "problem makers" and the ones "stirring the pot"
It is much harder to be honest and divulge genetic mishaps in one's line than taking the easy step and just push them under the rug. The latter is why so many of our poodles today are genetically compromised.
When I started breeding poodles 15 years ago, most of us while opening the stud issues of both PV and PR have looked first at the pedigree and its bad and good and then at what the dog looks like, today I find everyone wants so desperately to win it is like a rat race to the top. This I believe is part of the reasons behind some of our dogs' numerous health issues. 
I am now starting to get several phone calls from clients whose Ormar dogs are now dying at 13 and 14 years old.. Yes it is sad but at least my consolation is that they lived to such old age. I am not saying that I am exempt from genetic issues, and that some of my dogs didnt die earlier that the aforementioned age, not at all, but am saying that it feels good when alot of dogs produced by a breeder are dying at such an old age. 
How I wish there would be more openness in our breed and sharing of good and bad information without the feeling that a pendulum hangs over our head to come down crushing if and when we tell the truth . Maybe one day.... hopefully.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Just wanted to share with you a photo I received today from the owner of Ceili, my Lola and Patrick daughter and Onyx's full litter sister. Pictured at 6.5 months old with her first U.S. Ch. points. (2) from the Junior puppy class owner handled.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*Oooohhhhhhhh - blacks are my ultimate weakness*  !!!!

Ceili is soooo pretty !!!! :beauty: That new owner must be in a poodle-heaven right now : ))) !!! 

I am so glad that you discovered of how to post your photos without any trouble : ) and are doing so, since sometimes it is easy to forget how incredibly beautiful and elegant a correct dog looks like : ))) !

Wishing your puppy great show career :first:!!!!


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Ceili is a pretty girl, but truthfully the best ever puppy to come from you is my Baldr


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Thanks guys.

Too funny Snorpoo. You are so biased when it comes to your Ormar boy... I do agree he is human not a poodle, but then again you know what they say, dogs talk to poodles and poodles only to god.. 
Considering she is not a profes. handler Ceili's owner is doing well with her.
I find that when an owner handler wins with their dog over a profes. handler the win is sweeter. I wish I could have the courrage and stamina to handler and exhibit my own dogs. the money I could save,


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> Thanks guys.
> 
> Too funny Snorpoo. You are so biased when it comes to your Ormar boy... I do agree he is human not a poodle, but then again you know what they say, dogs talk to poodles and poodles only to god..
> Considering she is not a profes. handler Ceili's owner is doing well with her.
> I find that when an owner handler wins with their dog over a profes. handler the win is sweeter. I wish I could have the courrage and stamina to handler and exhibit my own dogs. the money I could save,


Ceili is beautiful ! Oh man I want her so bad, blacks are a favourite of mine, they look so stunning when they are a nice dog 

You should try owner handler! It is fun lol... I have braved the worst and with my first 'show dog' lol.. showed my mother's dobermann (owned by me on paper lol).... It has been interesting to say the least... but still FUN!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Jak, I would not even go there. It is too political down here. Most owner handlers get very frustrated and quit ahead of the game. 
It is a well known fact that some judges prefer top profes. handlers and look at who is at the end of the leash.. I found out during Cole's campaign career that the best dog is not necessarily the one that wins.. Politics in the ring is practiced much more at group and specials level than in breed or classes. Such is the name of the game, and we have to realize this if we are going to hire professionals and pay them to show our dogs.
In your country and in Europe most breeder exhibitors do it on thier own as there are not too many handlers there but much more owner handlers, this is why the competition is not at such a fierce level as it is here.
At times I think I should have my head examined to consider another Specials/campaign career for Onyx.. we will see, it all depends if he continues to mature as nicely as he is now.


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## Teffy (Jul 4, 2010)

I don't know anything about showing so I had no idea...that is disappointing whitepoodles. So the best dog doesn't always win? How do certain handlers get such prestige? Do they pay off the judges? Just joking.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

*NO *Teffy, they dont pay off judges. This is not done in the show world, at least not to my knowledge...
It simply comes down to this:

1. A judge either knows or does not know the breed standard when he judges a certain breed.
2. A judge can put up a dog that is of a lesser quality than another simply because that specific judge lacks breed knowledge or for the following reasons:
3. The judge is political inspite of knowledgeable and prefers to put up the top handler' show dog inspite of being aware that the dog does not merit the win/ribbon and the owner handler's dog should of been the winner in this case. 
3. The "political" judge not knowing the "face" of the owner/ handler of the better dog, prefers to not take a chance with a top handler and proceeds to award the top handler's dog rather than the owner/ handler's dog who should get the win because it is simpler and less complicated for the judge to later on deal with the top handler's knowledge that THAT judge did not award their exhibit.

As with all things we deal in life to include human nature , no one ever said life is fair and at times neither is judging in the conformation ring. I still maintainthat if I had the time and close by handlers to teach me how to show scissor and ability to frequent shows which otherwise are far from where I reside, and..... being YOUNGER (LOL) I would go for handling my own dogs.. There is nothing more rewarding and sweet tasting than winning with a dog you bred , condition and owner handle to their title. I honestly envy those who mastered the courage and fortitude to do this on their own.


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