# Shutting down/Refusal During Class



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Hhhhmmm, that is strange. Did the instructor have any ideas? You mentioned that some reactive dogs were not there for this class session. Is it possible that one of the dogs that was there is one who could have made him nervous because now some sort of signal or behavior was more obvious to him?

What kinds of treats, toys or releasers do you use when you are at class? Maybe you need something more fun or higher value. Lily sometimes gets stressed when we are doing hard things. I pull out her tug toy when that happens. It always jollies her up to do that. You may want to think about installing some stress releasers like spins or touches that you can do with Shae next to you in a smaller space rather than things like the get it get it game that I use as a break when I am working alone. Does Shae like body contact? With Javelin I can do some harder body contact like a push off where I tell him jump up and then push him off and move away. He then will get charged up to come after me. I then let him take another jump up and give him a nice rub on the sides of his head and then settle him back to work.


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> Hhhhmmm, that is strange. Did the instructor have any ideas? You mentioned that some reactive dogs were not there for this class session. Is it possible that one of the dogs that was there is one who could have made him nervous because now some sort of signal or behavior was more obvious to him?
> 
> What kinds of treats, toys or releasers do you use when you are at class? Maybe you need something more fun or higher value. Lily sometimes gets stressed when we are doing hard things. I pull out her tug toy when that happens. It always jollies her up to do that. You may want to think about installing some stress releasers like spins or touches that you can do with Shae next to you in a smaller space rather than things like the get it get it game that I use as a break when I am working alone. Does Shae like body contact? With Javelin I can do some harder body contact like a push off where I tell him jump up and then push him off and move away. He then will get charged up to come after me. I then let him take another jump up and give him a nice rub on the sides of his head and then settle him back to work.


Well, we had one semi reactive dog, but it wasn't nearly as bad as this one german shepherd that is...heck, don't even know how to describe her, but she wasn't there. No one seemed to be looking at him but I guess its possible he was feeding on something I wasnt seeing. The trainer asked me which dog was making Shea nervous and honestly I couldn't put my finger on it. Shea seemed focused on me, panting hard almost the whole time, and reluctant to even walk around. The trainer was telling me to up my enthusiasm and reassurance and i was doing my best, but it didn't seem to make any difference at all. 

This class only uses praise as reward. They use treats once you get beyond basic obedience, but no treats in this class. Just high levels of praise and petting. They do use verbal corrections and pops on the collar for other dogs. Is it possible that he's feeding on that from other dogs? I don't do that with Sheamus because he needs positive reinforcement, but I have seen him side eye or flinch if he hears a loud "no" from someone else in the class. Maybe the stress of that has been building and this is just the wrong training club for him?

I like the idea of the stress release moves. I can work on that with him. He does like to jump up when stressed or excited and just plant himself on you for a hug. So, maybe I can turn that into a command to jump up and work from there?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I have to feed my dogs and get out the door to go to work, so I don't have time to think this through further just now. I'll get back to you later today.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Archie often did this in his Focus class, especially toward the end of class when he was worn out from long stays with distractions. What works for him is putting fun stress-relieving moves in like Lily mentioned. I've taught him to jump up on command, which he loves, and he knows spin. I'll also get him to chase me as I run in quick little zig-zags. So if he starts to zone out, I'll either ask him to jump, spin several times quickly (usually alternating directions), or do a quick chase me game. That usually gets him engaged again. I've also brought toys but when he gets stressed he tends to ignore anything without a squeaker (which of course sets off the other dogs).


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Yes, I've experienced this with both of my dogs. Poodles are so much more sensitive and intelligent than other breeds, they really have special requirements. I would definitely quit a little earlier if Shea has had enough. My dogs don't need or appreciate drilling. If we're working on a new behavior, I do it maybe 5-10 times in a session. That's it. Otherwise they shut down and get stressed. Listen to him and his needs--you will have a stronger relationship and a much less anxious dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds rather like a class I took with my first papillon. She quite enjoyed it at first, but then there came a day when too many people were getting cross and shouty with their dogs. We moved further and further away down the hall, until I looked at her and she looked at me and we both mentally said "This isn't fun anymore". We left, and did not go back. Dogs pick up on other dogs' anxiety, and the whole atmosphere was too stressful for her to learn anything useful. I found a happier class elsewhere.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

DCspoo said:


> My training class is positive praise based so no treats. QUOTE]
> 
> Uhhh..that's weird. You'd think that class would be "whatever praise motivates your dog" based. Some dogs respond best to verbal reinforcement, some to food, some to play, some to retrieve, some to tug. In a perfect world, you're able to use each type of reward interchangeably, but that takes a lot of effort and every dog has a preference for one type of reinforcement. If you're not allowed to use the type of reinforcement that your dog responds best to, I'd not want to attend that class.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I mean this just really is bothering me! Class should be about improving your relationship with your dog, improving your dog's motivation to work with you, not setting up a situation where your dog is shutting down and refusing to work.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I also find it very strange that they don't let you use food, toys, and other motivators. What is the name of this training place?


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

zooeysmom said:


> Yes, I've experienced this with both of my dogs. Poodles are so much more sensitive and intelligent than other breeds, they really have special requirements. I would definitely quit a little earlier if Shea has had enough. My dogs don't need or appreciate drilling. If we're working on a new behavior, I do it maybe 5-10 times in a session. That's it. Otherwise they shut down and get stressed. Listen to him and his needs--you will have a stronger relationship and a much less anxious dog.


I can see this in his training generally, and he trains very happily at home where I do use treats sometimes as a motivator. This seemed very situational. Before last night he had been to almost two months of a bit of anxiety but still happy to work. 



fjm said:


> It sounds rather like a class I took with my first papillon. She quite enjoyed it at first, but then there came a day when too many people were getting cross and shouty with their dogs. We moved further and further away down the hall, until I looked at her and she looked at me and we both mentally said "This isn't fun anymore". We left, and did not go back. Dogs pick up on other dogs' anxiety, and the whole atmosphere was too stressful for her to learn anything useful. I found a happier class elsewhere.


I think this sounds similar to my experience. Though its weird that on the quietest day in class, he was the most stressed. I certainly dont want him to stress...training obviously should be fun for him. And he is very praise motivated so I haven't up until now had a problem motivating him, this seemed more. But maybe treats would have mentally moved him past his anxiety.



Verve said:


> I also find it very strange that they don't let you use food, toys, and other motivators. What is the name of this training place?


I'll PM it to you, or anyone else that wants it for that matter.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

fjm said:


> It sounds rather like a class I took with my first papillon. She quite enjoyed it at first, but then there came a day when too many people were getting cross and shouty with their dogs. We moved further and further away down the hall, until I looked at her and she looked at me and we both mentally said "This isn't fun anymore". We left, and did not go back. Dogs pick up on other dogs' anxiety, and the whole atmosphere was too stressful for her to learn anything useful. I found a happier class elsewhere.


This was my experience with an earlier dog. I was told that we shouldn't need treats anymore. My bassett-X didn't agree and lost interest. That was the end of her obedience career (too bad I didn't know about rally-o at that time, especially WCRL where treats are permitted).

Since then I've learned to be my dog's advocate. It's my job to learn how he/she learns and proceed in that manner. So far I've gotten away with it at my club. An example with my current spoo, the evening's curriculum called for each dog-handler pair to spend a few minutes in the ring running through beginning novice exercises as an introduction to the sport of obedience. My boy couldn't handle the 45 minute wait outside the ring til our turn came up. I saw nothing to be gained by the lesson plan, and much to be lost . . . my boy LIKES going to the club. So we left.

I hope that you can find a better option.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with others about the no treats rule being really odd. The only time I absolutely do not use any treats or toys is if I am doing a trial preparatory match routine where I go through all the exercises with a practice judge and stewards. When a dog is learning you have to pay them and sometimes "good dog" with a nice pat on the back is enough, but most of the time it isn't. You want to help your dog to understand that doing things with you is fun and eventually to have just being with you doing those things to be its own reward, but that isn't for learning. I also think you have to keep things lively and fun all the way along and that can mean treats or a play break might appear out of the blue at any time.

How many more of these no treats beginner classes do you have left? If you continue at this facility do you think you will be able to do what you read Shea as needing to keep his motivation up?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I think this is so odd too. I'm not an expert but all the books I've read have talked about using whatever rewards (food, toys, praise etc.) motivate your dog when training. For a food motivated dog, and most fall into this category - higher value treats are important during the early phase of training - then you slowly fade the treat.

I would ask the teacher if you can reward your dog with food to see if that keeps keep Shea motivated in class.

Is it only this teacher that trains without food? Do you have an option to switch to another class?

I always bring a water bowl with me to class and sometimes my dog wants a break to take a drink of water, especially in agility class. I also bring a tug toy- don't always use it, but it's there if we have to hang around while other dogs are doing something in the ring and we have to wait.


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## LizzysMom (Sep 27, 2016)

I think it was in a book by Patricia McConnell that I read about thinking of treats as your dog's paycheck. If you went to your job every day, and put in the work, and at the end of the day/week your paycheck did not reflect the work you had put in, you'd soon lose interest in doing a good job for your employer, wouldn't you? Before I read that, I pretty much had the attitude that once my dog learned a command, she should do what I ask without needing to be rewarded any longer. Now, I think that it would be pretty crummy of me to "lower her pay" for being good at her job!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sophy and I took a CGC class, where for the first few sessions treats rained from the sky. Then we were reminded that treats were not allowed during the actual test, and it was time to start phasing them out. The rules allowed treating when you got back to your chair after each exercise, but not during the exercise itself. Sophy is very, very food motivated, and has very definite ideas about things she will do because they are sensible (mostly everyday life stuff) and things that are "tricks" that should be highly rewarded (practically everything in a class setting). I got round it by letting her know there was a pot of chicken in my pocket, and keeping her close to me when weaving through a roomful of dogs and people with a subvocal murmur of "Good dogs get chicken!", with a jackpot when we got back to the chair. I felt she had earned her pay!


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

There are a series of free videos from Susan Garrett running now about positive training, using treats as a reward and not a lure. I'm not sure how to gain access as I'm on her e-mail list. Perhaps an internet search will bring these up.

Jackpots, yes, FJM! I only starting using these with agility training and now use them for everything.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

fjm said:


> Sophy and I took a CGC class, where for the first few sessions treats rained from the sky. Then we were reminded that treats were not allowed during the actual test, and it was time to start phasing them out. The rules allowed treating when you got back to your chair after each exercise, but not during the exercise itself. Sophy is very, very food motivated, and has very definite ideas about things she will do because they are sensible (mostly everyday life stuff) and things that are "tricks" that should be highly rewarded (practically everything in a class setting). I got round it by letting her know there was a pot of chicken in my pocket, and keeping her close to me when weaving through a roomful of dogs and people with a subvocal murmur of "Good dogs get chicken!", with a jackpot when we got back to the chair. I felt she had earned her pay!


Wow, you were allowed to treat during the CGC test when you got back to your chair? We weren't allow any from the start of the exam until it was completed - I was so scared Babykins wouldn't make it because she is very demanding of her treats too just like Sophy. 

Class is a very distracting environment for dogs - they need treats to help keep their attention, especially in those first classes when everything is new to them. So again I express my surprise that OP is not allowed to treat Shea.


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> How many more of these no treats beginner classes do you have left? If you continue at this facility do you think you will be able to do what you read Shea as needing to keep his motivation up?


So the class is eight sessions, so we are at the end. The next session is putting all the dogs through all their paces and exercises, and then a graduation. I've decided to forgo it. Sheamus gave very clear feelings about the class and I see no need to stress him out with a class that will be devoted to him doing all the exercises he doesnt want to do there. I realized this isn't a case where I've backyard trained him (meaning the situation where dogs only do it in home with no distractions), he'll do what I ask in busy public areas/walks/out and about, this is him not liking the class and, now I'm almost certain, him not liking the energy/corrections in the room. So, no reason to make him anxious. We were told absolutely no treats/toys so I don't think the liklihood of getting him comfortable next class is very high. 



Skylar said:


> Is it only this teacher that trains without food? Do you have an option to switch to another class?
> 
> I always bring a water bowl with me to class and sometimes my dog wants a break to take a drink of water, especially in agility class. I also bring a tug toy- don't always use it, but it's there if we have to hang around while other dogs are doing something in the ring and we have to wait.


No, it is the training programs policy. Though we had a substitute in one class and she said to use treats at home if need be and just not use them in class. She mentioned that specifically the trainer of my class is very anti any treats, where she thinks if you need motivation just use treats at home and then not in class since its against their policy. 

So I'm going to find another training club. His current place holds CGC classes as the next level, which I had not mulled over, but thinking we'll go elsewhere for those.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

DCspoo said:


> So the class is eight sessions, so we are at the end. The next session is putting all the dogs through all their paces and exercises, and then a graduation. I've decided to forgo it. Sheamus gave very clear feelings about the class and I see no need to stress him out with a class that will be devoted to him doing all the exercises he doesnt want to do there. I realized this isn't a case where I've backyard trained him (meaning the situation where dogs only do it in home with no distractions), he'll do what I ask in busy public areas/walks/out and about, this is him not liking the class and, now I'm almost certain, him not liking the energy/corrections in the room. So, no reason to make him anxious. We were told absolutely no treats/toys so I don't think the liklihood of getting him comfortable next class is very high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you've made a wise decision.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I concur on the moving on decision. I would never tell a student in one of my classes not to use treats as rewards (not lures) or to play and use a toy like a tug toy. The only things that are on my forbidden list are unlimited slip collars (choke chains) and reprimanding dogs who've made mistakes because they didn't understand what was supposed to happen.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Kudos to you for making it that far in the training program (Shae and I would have dropped out after one session; she will hardly do anything unless it's for food) and great job for recognizing that Shea is out of his comfort zone and it's not worth stressing him out over "completing the class". I think you've made a great decision that protects everyone's whole-health.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Good decision not to subject your dog to yet another trying class without rewards. Asta and I also gave up on classes before graduation, so I just laugh and say he failed obedience. We were allowed to use treats, but Asta is not food motivated and they wanted me to put a choke chain on him, well that was the end of that. Hope it works out that you find another place for training. Best of luck.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Asta's Mom the people who wanted you to use a choke chain wouldn't be welcome to work with me! I think one of the key points in this discussion is that we are our dogs' safety net. It is up to us to know when to walk away from situations that put their safety and/or their trust in us in jeopardy.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Good for you for making the decision that is in your dog's best interests. I am so glad I had to forum to ask for advice when I was going through the same thing with my dogs. In Maizie's case, I quit the class, but with Frosty's, I stayed but made modifications.


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

galofpink said:


> Kudos to you for making it that far in the training program (Shae and I would have dropped out after one session; she will hardly do anything unless it's for food) and great job for recognizing that Shea is out of his comfort zone and it's not worth stressing him out over "completing the class". I think you've made a great decision that protects everyone's whole-health.


Eh, honestly I don't deserve any kudos because Shea liked the first couple classes. He loves praise and will do anything for pets at home so my first impression was that this could work very well for him. Then was pretty mildly anxious after a few classes, then anxious but getting over it, then he was back to good with the substitute, and it was only this week that he'd had enough. 

So I didn't put him through 7 weeks of hating this... that would have been mean of me. At least in my opinion. 

I'm researching and hopefully I can find classes in my area he'll enjoy.


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## KBMeredith (Nov 1, 2016)

I am so glad I read your post. I thought my pup was the only one who did this! He cost me 6 weeks of time and a bundle of money by flatly refusing to do down and stay during his final exam. She assessor gave me a couple of tries but that was it. He KNOWS how to do it and generally does it fine. But for some reason he just refused. At home he will do it 80% of the time and then decide not to. Sigh. I hope he will do it when he's supposed to next time through because I hate spending the money and the time for a course repeat!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

KBMeredith said:


> I am so glad I read your post. I thought my pup was the only one who did this! He cost me 6 weeks of time and a bundle of money by flatly refusing to do down and stay during his final exam. She assessor gave me a couple of tries but that was it. He KNOWS how to do it and generally does it fine. But for some reason he just refused. At home he will do it 80% of the time and then decide not to. Sigh. I hope he will do it when he's supposed to next time through because I hate spending the money and the time for a course repeat!



I wouldn't focus on money or time having been wasted. Nothing of it was wasted if you come away with a better relationship with your dog. If I resented the times Lily and I haven't qualified on something as a waste I would have given up years ago. Anything I do with Lily and Javelin is worth whatever it cost IMO.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

In regards to noisy corrections made by other handlers... we had a woman who came to our drop in class who had a booming voice. Her dogs, Dr. Phil and Oprah, paid her no heed. The remainder of the class kept pulling away from the woman. Eventually no one wanted to be next to her; in a line-up, she got stuck on the end next to the instructor's dog. At which point the instructor realized that we were not being whiny, ha-ha! All the dogs were miserable, except Dr. Phil and Oprah. They were were very cheerful, disobedient little dogs. I think they had developed selective deafness for the sake of survival. None of us were sorry when the trio moved away. Tails started wagging again.


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## KBMeredith (Nov 1, 2016)

Wow Lily. Slap me down why don't ya?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

KBMeredith said:


> Wow Lily. Slap me down why don't ya?



Really? Wow I can't believe you took my own noting having "wasted" many entry fees as a slap down. My main message was that any time spent in an activity that ultimately enhances your relationship with your dog is not a waste. I hope everyone can see that and value it. Our time with them is too short.

Since you seem offended I apologize.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

KBMeredith said:


> I am so glad I read your post. I thought my pup was the only one who did this! He cost me 6 weeks of time and a bundle of money by flatly refusing to do down and stay during his final exam. She assessor gave me a couple of tries but that was it. He KNOWS how to do it and generally does it fine. But for some reason he just refused. At home he will do it 80% of the time and then decide not to. Sigh. I hope he will do it when he's supposed to next time through because I hate spending the money and the time for a course repeat!


Your pup sounds like Maizie. You just have to find what motivates him. Maizie also hates doing down, but I upped the food value until it was worth it to her (steak). Now she will lie down indoors 99% of the time without a reward.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Archie will refuse commands if he's too tired or overly stressed. During our CGC test (when he was both tired AND stressed), I asked him to sit at one point and he just wouldn't do it. Luckily it wasn't for the actual sit portion the CGC - it was supposed to keep him from approaching the strange dog during that part of the test. I asked for the command twice, he just stared at me, and finally I gave up and we did the approach without him sitting. The instructor passed him because the sit wasn't actually required for that part of the test and he did everything else he was supposed to do.

It's like someone with stage fright who rehearses for weeks and then forgets their lines once they're in front of an audience. Sometimes it's not that they don't know the command, it's just that they don't know how to cope with a stressful situation.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle failed three CGC classes. Yes, three. The environment was too overly stimulating. She went into overload and couldn't learn well. Did I spend a boat load of money? Yes. Did I waste this money? Oh heck no. 

I pretend to train a lot. What I mean by that is changing my thinking. It's too easy for me to get caught up in outcomes. CGC is an outcome. A dog who sits when I say sit is an outcome. If I focus on the outcome, two things can happen: one is success, one is failure. There is another option which is pretending. When I pretend I'm training, I stop focusing on outcome, success/failure, because what we're doing is only for pretend. If we're only pretending, then the outcome I am focusing on is having fun with my dog.

If I am only pretending to train my dog, then I can relax and enjoy the time we hang out together. Pretending also reminds me to slow the heck down and remember that just because I understand a skill does not mean my dog understands it. Noelle's learning style is context specific, probably the most context specific dog I have ever had.

I can almost hear Noelle thinking, sit means sit in the kitchen. Does sit also mean sit in the hallway? The backyard? What about the living room? The pet store? Is it possible that sit means something else in these places? Hm. And what is the deeper meaning of sit? The true purpose of sit. To sit, or not to sit, that is the question.

Every skill I train Noelle, I retrain in every location as if it is for the first time. Sit means sit here, too. And here. And here, and yep, over here, too. It takes her a tremendous amount of time to generalize a skill. It is, perhaps, a side effect of having a genius dog. Noelle learns any trick I teach her in three attempts or less. But, it takes nine billion times for her to generalize a skill.

I would seek out a completely different training environment from the no treats class. I totally agree with what Lisa's Girl said. Treats are dog currency. My trainer says to me, "Use your food." I hope you find the class that works for you. And I hope you have wonderful adventures ahead. Training dogs is fun. It's supposed to be fun for both of you.


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