# Red Phantom Standard Poodle



## JudithJ (11 mo ago)

Hi, we are in the market for another puppy. I fell in love with this red phantom that I saw online recently. I would LOVE a Standard, but would consider a moyen. Does anybody have any recommendations for breeders of red phantoms?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Welcome to the forum!

I'd like to clarify your search terms. Technically the dog would be a brown phantom. In other breeds (e.g. Dobermans, Aussies) it's common to refer to a genetically brown dog as " red." Since poodles have both red and brown in the gene pool, poodle folks are careful about which word they use. It's genetically impossible to have a red phantom. The phantom gene turns the points of a brown or black dog to red, apricot, or cream. If the dog is already red, then the gene has no way of expressing. It's just all red. 

I can't think of anyone specializing in brown phantoms. There simply aren't enough good quality brown phantoms; the dogs would have crazy levels of inbreeding if the program used only brown phantoms. However, there are definitely decent breeders who have phantoms, and sometimes their dogs carry brown as well. Occasionally good luck and a happy accident will result in a litter with some brown phantoms in it. Off the top of my head, some breeders I can think of who have phantoms in their program include Karbit, Heart Song, and Celtic Heart. I would feel comfortable buying from any of these three. 

There are some other breeders I would not feel comfortable buying from. I most definitely would not buy from a breeder advertising a red phantom. It means they are ignorant about poodle breed standards and/or color genetics, which tends to go along with being ignorant about poodle health genetics. There are also a few puppy mills and doodle breeders who are trying to cash in on trendy colors. 

Moyen is also a red flag term in North America. Countries following FCI standard (Europe and other parts of the world) have four sizes of poodles, moyen/klein being one of them. However, AKC, UKC, and CKC do not recognize the moyen size range. A small moyen is a mini here; a large moyen is a standard. Therefore, any time you see the word moyen it means either the breeder is working with dogs imported from an FCI region, or else it means the breeder is cashing in on a trendy term. There are a few good moyen breeders working with European imports in North America, Karbit being one. In general, however, it's a good idea to heavily scrutinize any breeder advertising moyens.


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## JudithJ (11 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'd like to clarify your search terms. Technically the dog would be a brown phantom. In other breeds (e.g. Dobermans, Aussies) it's common to refer to a genetically brown dog as " red." Since poodles have both red and brown in the gene pool, poodle folks are careful about which word they use. It's genetically impossible to have a red phantom. The phantom gene turns the points of a brown or black dog to red, apricot, or cream. If the dog is already red, then the gene has no way of expressing. It's just all red.
> 
> ...





cowpony said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'd like to clarify your search terms. Technically the dog would be a brown phantom. In other breeds (e.g. Dobermans, Aussies) it's common to refer to a genetically brown dog as " red." Since poodles have both red and brown in the gene pool, poodle folks are careful about which word they use. It's genetically impossible to have a red phantom. The phantom gene turns the points of a brown or black dog to red, apricot, or cream. If the dog is already red, then the gene has no way of expressing. It's just all red.
> 
> ...


Oh my goodness, thanks for the clarification and enlightenment. I've done my research and thought that I was already educated on this, but I learned so much more simply from your post. I guess the education what I thought I correctly understood was in actuality inaccurate and misleading information from social media posts and Google. Thanks for the proper insight and terminology! Glad to be on here with you guys!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh, I forgot to mention Cosmic Caliber as a breeder worth checking out.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Following on cowpony's post with a bit of additional detail.

AKC, UKC, Canadian Kennel Club (CKC)

Miniatures are 10"-15" at the shoulder. Over 15" is a standard but you'll rarely see standards under 20".

The FCI medium size starts under 15", at 13.78" and goes up to 17.7".

This means that a large number of the AKC/UKC/CKC miniatures would be considered mediums by height without needing to find a truly responsible breeder using the imported dogs.

We also have members whose miniatures go what's called oversize. This can't be predicted usually.

For an interesting graph of poodle sizes of PF members, Pavie has created this:
Last updated approx 30d past, 64 poodles plotted from the US, Canada, The UK, Europe, and I'm sure I've missed some participants.










IIRC, the poodles you see over the 15" up to the gap where the standards are grouped are born of miniature parents and are considered oversize minis due to the parentage. Not all registries tie the size nomenclature to parentage. 

I think that most people sort of assume that the medium would be that 15"-20" range but that's not the case for a true medium.


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