# recurring respiratory problems



## thebeachbug (Mar 20, 2016)

Hi guys.
Hoping someone on hear can give me some thoughts.
My 9 year old mini toy cross has some sort of respiratory thing going on.
About 18 months ago she was coughing and sneezing a bit, the vet said it was an upper respiratory infection and put her on antibiotics. She came good pretty quickly, although I think it took 2 courses of antibiotics to completely get rid of it.
Then about 6 or so months ago she started snuffling as if she was having trouble breathing, I didn’t think much of it at first she’s always snorting or snuffling about something. A lot of the time it’s just her expressing her disapproval of something. But it got worse quickly, to the point where of a night time she couldn’t settle to sleep and she was panting and struggling to breathe when she put her head down.
I took her back to the vet, he checked her out completely and said it was probably just the respiratory infection again and put her on another lot of antibiotics. It did help, but I never felt it was gone completely. She’d still snuffle a little, and there was a bit of a squeak in her breathing from time to time. Just in the last few days her snuffling has got bad again, she’s going back to the vet on Monday. But I am starting to wonder if it’s something other then just a recurring respiratory infection. She is prone to allergies, such as wet grass, she starts constantly licking her pause, then scratches her ears, starting an ear infection, and around the circle goes. She has cortisone tablets to stop it getting to that point though. 
Does anyone have any ideas what it might be other than an infection? 
She’s still eating, doesn’t have a temperature, she didn’t with the last episode either, and she isn’t coughing or sneezing.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

thebeachbug said:


> Hi guys.
> Hoping someone on hear can give me some thoughts.
> My 9 year old mini toy cross has some sort of respiratory thing going on.
> About 18 months ago she was coughing and sneezing a bit, the vet said it was an upper respiratory infection and put her on antibiotics. She came good pretty quickly, although I think it took 2 courses of antibiotics to completely get rid of it.
> ...


I don't know, but she needs the vet for sure. What is she eating ? I would avoid chicken and put her on a 1 ingredient diet for now. Raw. Until you know it's not the food. Then you can have her eat whatever you want. But until then, the less ingredients she eats, the easier to know which foods to avoid.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Has the vet ever attempted to culture to see that there really was an infection? Has the vet ever looked with a scope at her nasal passages or taken an x ray to see if there was a focal issue in her lungs or her upper respiratory tract?

I think you need to work with the vet to make sure that all avenues have been investigated for root causes rather than making empirical diagnoses.

Food allergies may have something to do with this and doing as Dechi suggests to investigate those matters with a limited ingredient diet.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Could it be a weak trachea/revere sneeze? Most common in toys, but since she is a mix?


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Has the vet examined her heart? This makes me worry about a heart problem. Allergies...uggghh...such a problem sometimes. That's a whole other ball game. Maybe she needs to see another vet for another opinion...maybe a specialist. I hope she'll be all right...let us know how things go. This does not sound comfortable at all for her. Best wishes.


----------



## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Has the vet examined her heart? This makes me worry about a heart problem. Allergies...uggghh...such a problem sometimes. That's a whole other ball game. Maybe she needs to see another vet for another opinion...maybe a specialist. I hope she'll be all right...let us know how things go. This does not sound comfortable at all for her. Best wishes.



This is what I was going to say to the OP. Perhaps a heart problem? But whatever is going on, it needs to be diagnosed and properly treated. I too think getting the dog to a specialist might be the step in the right direction.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Has the vet examined her heart? This makes me worry about a heart problem. Allergies...uggghh...such a problem sometimes. That's a whole other ball game. Maybe she needs to see another vet for another opinion...maybe a specialist. I hope she'll be all right...let us know how things go. This does not sound comfortable at all for her. Best wishes.



Good point, because she might have gone to the one Vet on earth that doesn't pull out their stethoscope and listen to a dog's heart and lungs when they examine them for a cough (or for any reason at all).
To the OP, my girl's Cardiologist has assured me that it is virtually unheard of for a dog to have a heart problem with no murmur heard - if your Vet heard no murmur, you can forget about the heart having anything to do with it.
And for everyone else - the heart issue which causes a WET cough is CHF, and not only would there be a heart murmur heard, but there would be fluid heard in the lungs.


----------



## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

My first though as well was congestive heart failure. He should take another look at the xray, it can be hard to differentiate infection from CHF. Your babe may need digoxin and something like Lasix. The murmur part is not true. You do Not have to hear a problem. The heart is not working enough to prevent fluid build up in the lungs. It has to do with some kind of pressure/osmosis thing. Nothing to do with valves that can cause a murmur. Get a second opinion.

hubby is a 50 year respiratory therapist and i'm a 23 year neonatal nurse. We both agree that CHf may or may not cause a murmur. The lungs are wet because the blood is backed up in the lungs and they leak fluid from the blood into the tissues, and tissues into the lungs. The cardiac function needs meds to improve efficiency.

Dig would make the heart work more efficiently and Lasix would remove some water.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> My first though as well was congestive heart failure. He should take another look at the xray, it can be hard to differentiate infection from CHF. Your babe may need digoxin and something like Lasix. The murmur part is not true. You do Not have to hear a problem. The heart is not working enough to prevent fluid build up in the lungs. It has to do with some kind of pressure/osmosis thing. Nothing to do with valves that can cause a murmur. Get a second opinion.
> 
> hubby is a 50 year respiratory therapist and i'm a 23 year neonatal nurse. We both agree that CHf may or may not cause a murmur. The lungs are wet because the blood is backed up in the lungs and they leak fluid from the blood into the tissues, and tissues into the lungs. The cardiac function needs meds to improve efficiency.
> 
> Dig would make the heart work more efficiently and Lasix would remove some water.



Sorry, but you and your hubby work with humans - a Veterinary Cardiologist told me this about canines.
If you would like to discuss it with her, PM me and I will give you her name and number - She is very nice, I am sure that she would be happy to explain it to - I just believed her, and didn't ask any further questions.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Sorry, but you and your hubby work with humans - a Veterinary Cardiologist told me this about canines.
> If you would like to discuss it with her, PM me and I will give you her name and number - She is very nice, I am sure that she would be happy to explain it to - I just believed her, and didn't ask any further questions.



As an aside, although I am not a nurse, nor a respiratory therapist, I think that you it backwards - a murmur does not cause anything, CHF or otherwise. A murmur is a symptom of a valve defect, and a valve defect may or may not cause CHF depending upon which valves are involved, how how severe the defect.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Do you have heart worm where you live? Maybe that should be tested for.

I would want a vet to check urine and blood, see what, if anything the dog may have that may cause these sx.... ultra sound, chest x-rays if she hasn't already had... ekg if another round of anti biotics don't stop it for good. The panting can be a sign of pain, discomfort, stress or just plain not getting enough oxygen. I do hope some definite dx is found soon. Best wishes that it's nothing serious and easily treatable.

Have you tried steaming up the bathroom and sitting in there with her for about 10 minutes a few times a day? It sounds like she's wheezing from your description. She may also have a lung issue...asthma of sorts, perhaps nothing to do with her heart. Or she could have some fluid leaking into her lungs from CHF. Is her belly at all distended? Well....the best thing to do is seek out a really reputable specialist vet and get some good diagnostics going.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I would definitely try an elimination diet. If an occasional reverse sneeze a sign of a week trachea Tiny Poodles?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I would definitely try an elimination diet. If an occasional reverse sneeze a sign of a week trachea Tiny Poodles?



Reverse sneeze, tracheal cough, "gasping for breath", "asthma", "choking" "honking cough" all ways I have heard people describe it - it all comes down to a collapsing trachea. You would be hard pressed to find a dog under 6 pounds who doesn't have it in some form, to some degree, in some situations, but it certainly can afflict larger than that. It most definitely worsens with age, worsens when they lay down, can be triggered by exercise, excitement, or drinking, but despite the fact that it is disturbing, it rarely becomes life threatening. Of my 7 poodles Timi is the only one who has not had it at all (so far). Taylee's was a gasping in, with abdomen heaving kind of thing, Tangee's was like she was trying to cough something out of her throat, and Teaka honks like Felix Unger - it was/is all tracheal.
A CHF cough sounds entirely different - like a deep down wet rumbling, while a tracheal cough, you can just tell that it is originating in the throat. You would never mistake one for the other when you have heard them both.


----------



## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Sorry, but you and your hubby work with humans - a Veterinary Cardiologist told me this about canines.
> If you would like to discuss it with her, PM me and I will give you her name and number - She is very nice, I am sure that she would be happy to explain it to - I just believed her, and didn't ask any further questions.


hi. I am not saying that our fields have more knowledge than a canine cardiologist- we don't. However my field has allowed me to understand quite a bit about what is similar but I don't diagnose people or dogs. I just throw what I know out there like everyone else and hopefully help someone. Most of my canine CHF experience comes from being my best friend's support during the time her dog got his first symptoms of CHF until her dog passed. The symptoms are pretty much the same and so are the medications-but I never diagnose anyone .


----------



## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> As an aside, although I am not a nurse, nor a respiratory therapist, I think that you it backwards - a murmur does not cause anything, CHF or otherwise. A murmur is a symptom of a valve defect, and a valve defect may or may not cause CHF depending upon which valves are involved, how how severe the defect.


I looked at my post but can't find anything backwards. I said CHF may or may not cause a murmur (to be heard) : )

I think there are alot of really good ideas here, tracheal problem, allergies, heartworm. Good things to think about.


----------



## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Reverse sneeze, tracheal cough, "gasping for breath", "asthma", "choking" "honking cough" all ways I have heard people describe it - it all comes down to a collapsing trachea. You would be hard pressed to find a dog under 6 pounds who doesn't have it in some form, to some degree, in some situations, but it certainly can afflict larger than that. It most definitely worsens with age, worsens when they lay down, can be triggered by exercise, excitement, or drinking, but despite the fact that it is disturbing, it rarely becomes life threatening. Of my 7 poodles Timi is the only one who has not had it at all (so far). Taylee's was a gasping in, with abdomen heaving kind of thing, Tangee's was like she was trying to cough something out of her throat, and Teaka honks like Felix Unger - it was/is all tracheal.
> A CHF cough sounds entirely different - like a deep down wet rumbling, while a tracheal cough, you can just tell that it is originating in the throat. You would never mistake one for the other when you have heard them both.


Really a good guess. Um, Felix Unger honking? Are you dating yourself, LOL?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> hi. I am not saying that our fields have more knowledge than a canine cardiologist- we don't. However my field has allowed me to understand quite a bit about what is similar but I don't diagnose people or dogs. I just throw what I know out there like everyone else and hopefully help someone. Most of my canine CHF experience comes from being my best friend's support during the time her dog got his first symptoms of CHF until her dog passed. The symptoms are pretty much the same and so are the medications-but I never diagnose anyone .



I understand, but I had already said that the veterinary cardiologist said that dogs virtually never have a heart issue absent a murmur, so in this case throwing out what you know about human medicine could only lead the OP down the wrong path, you know?


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> Really a good guess. Um, Felix Unger honking? Are you dating yourself, LOL?



Lol, well if you recall, there was a revival of the show on just last year - it is POSSIBLE that I was referencing that incarnation!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

How's she doing? Any second opinions? Say...I was wondering, how long has she been on cortisone for her allergies? Long term?


----------



## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I concur that your dog needs more testing, or to see a seasoned veterinary diagnostician.There very well could be more than one thing going on. Some of the symptoms sound identical to asthma (I had an asthmatic beagle), especially the squeak at the end of a breath. There are just too many possibilities for us to pin it down based on your description. Good luck. Please let us know what the diagnosis is when you get one.


----------



## thebeachbug (Mar 20, 2016)

Thanks for all the suggestions. 
She’s on a different lot of antibiotics, witch seam to be helping. 
The vet wants her to go in so he can have a good look at her airways ect, so I’ll book her in for that after easter.
He and I are leaning towards it being some kind of problem with her trachea, he wants her on the antibiotics though incase its bronchitis.
I’ve tried elimination diets before, and they make no difference to her.
Both girls get a heart worm injection every 12 months when there vaccinated, so I can rule that one out. 
I’ll let everyone know what we find when she has the investigation.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

It seems extreme to me to "go in" when a trachea problem is suspected. There is a surgery for it, but last I heard it has a very poor success rate and should only be attempted in the most dire cases. The vast majority of dogs with collapsing trachea live their whole lives with it as only a minor inconvenience. If it is worse when she lays down, try getting her to sleep in a different position - on her belly would be better than on her back or side, or with her head elevated on something.


----------



## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

thebeachbug said:


> Thanks for all the suggestions.
> She’s on a different lot of antibiotics, witch seam to be helping.
> The vet wants her to go in so he can have a good look at her airways ect, so I’ll book her in for that after easter.
> He and I are leaning towards it being some kind of problem with her trachea, he wants her on the antibiotics though incase its bronchitis.
> ...


All of my poos, except for my last two, had a collapsing trachea, but it was not serious enough ( happening only occasionally ) to do anything about it. 
I do hope it's nothing serious for your girl. Yes, please come back and let us know what you find out.


----------



## thebeachbug (Mar 20, 2016)

I agree surgery is extreme, and it’s not being suggested at the moment.
They want to put a camera down to see what’s going on. mostly because the vet isn’t 100 percent sure a collapsing trachea is the problem, Some of her symptoms don’t add up to it.
I don’t like putting her through any procedures no matter how miner, but I like seeing her distressed and struggling to breathe even less.
I would rather they check her out completely and have the peace of mind, that it’s not something serious that we could have done something about but it’s then to late.
As I’ve said, she’s nearly 10. She gets very panicky when she can’t breathe properly, and it’s an on going thing not just episodes of a few minutes. So I’m sure it’s putting stress on her heart, and I’d rather not do that given her age.
Believe me, surgery would be my absolute last resort. But the way I see it. If it was me in her place with an unexplained respiratory condition, I would want answers. She can’t make those decisions or go looking for those answers herself obviously. So it’s my responsibility as her owner to make those decisions, and do what ever’s in her best interest.


Tiny Poodles said:


> It seems extreme to me to "go in" when a trachea problem is suspected. There is a surgery for it, but last I heard it has a very poor success rate and should only be attempted in the most dire cases. The vast majority of dogs with collapsing trachea live their whole lives with it as only a minor inconvenience. If it is worse when she lays down, try getting her to sleep in a different position - on her belly would be better than on her back or side, or with her head elevated on something.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think the camera might be a very helpful thing. My little girl Chi had collapsing trachea. She would gasp and it was a very deep, honking sound for a few times. It only happened occasionally, like when she got super duper silly and her breathing would get sort of irregular like it does when they're getting kind of wild. But regular exercise didn't necessarily bring it on....sometimes though. It's usually not that big of a deal. But in your dogs case, it doesn't quite sound like that to me...it could be, but some of what you describe doesn't quite seem to line up exactly with collapsing trachea. I do hope your vet can get to the bottom of this and that it's not terribly serious. I'm like you. I'd do whatever there is to do to fix the problem if there is a fix as long as it's not too hard on the dog for too long. Keep us posted and all my best is being sent to you and your little dumpling.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

thebeachbug said:


> I agree surgery is extreme, and it’s not being suggested at the moment.
> 
> They want to put a camera down to see what’s going on. mostly because the vet isn’t 100 percent sure a collapsing trachea is the problem, Some of her symptoms don’t add up to it.
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying, but I have gone through a few instances where I sort of let them "Vet my dog to death", and so I am very wary of exploratory procedures. 
What other TREATABLE diagnosis could there be? How about an ultrasound? An ultrasound should give a good idea if something is there that shouldn't be? Did they even do X-rays? They told me that they could see how badly Tangee's trachea collapsed when she was on her back for an X-Ray.


----------



## mauricenme (Mar 27, 2016)

Is your vet a specialist or a general vet? If you decide to have the bronchoscopy (camera) it should be done by a specialist. The will also take samples to check for bacteria. You find out if the collapse extends into the bronchi, the stage of collapse, etc. My dog just had one . I am still trying to learn more about it . My vet recorded the whole thing so I could see what he saw during the procedure. I just have to figure out what program will work to open it.


----------



## thebeachbug (Mar 20, 2016)

There general vets. I have to make an appointment next week, to take her back to discuss what the next move should be.
I don’t know if that will be an investigation or not, but If necessary I’ll push for her to see a specialist.
My family has been with this vet practise for the last 16 or 17 years, and I’ve never known the particular vet treating Chloe to do anything if it wasn’t totally necessary. So I have enough faith in him that he will work with me to make the right decisions for her treatment.


----------

