# Are all Poodles "stubborn"?



## AnneMarie (Feb 19, 2016)

Hi everyone. I've never had a purebred Poodle, but I do have a Lhasapoo and I was curious if her personality is more of her Poodle side or her Lhasa Apso side. 

My little girl is 8lbs, almost 1yr old. She tends to have a 'what's in it for me' attitude with everything! She is very smart and has learned many tricks and rules, but she still has not mastered 'come' yet. Even in the house when I tell her to come here, she stares at me for a good couple minutes until I finally get fed up and walk over to her. She's started a new thing of running under chairs and when I reach under to pull her out she goes limp. She won't come to us for treats, food, toys, nothing, unless she thinks it's worth her time. It makes bed time a pain in the butt! 

I'm curious if your Poodles do this also or if this could be from her Lhasa parentage? Thanks!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I recommend you read the book, Culture Clash. She explains exceedingly well how normal dogs are. lol. Your dog isn't stubborn. All dogs, all living beings have the "what's in it for me" trait going on or they wouldn't survive and evolve. It's up to us as owner/trainers to find out what motivates our dogs and use that to our advantage, along with other good, benevolent training methods to teach them that compliance works! For them! :alberteinstein: Dogs vary in what motivates them. With some you have to be more creative or doing something a little different. But the _concepts_ of behaviorism are across the board in all living organisms with a brain. As the author, Jean Donaldson describes, Dogs are selfish, but innocently so. It's just the way they are. People and dogs would be so much better off if they read that book. It is an eye opener and so very helpful.


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## AnneMarie (Feb 19, 2016)

Okay thank you. I've only had herding breeds before, mostly Australian Cattle Dogs, and they were so easy compared to my little one. I recall one of my girls, I could be outside the house and told her to go to her room she would run inside and lay down on the bed and stay until I called her out. I was just curious if Poodles traditionally are easy to train? Perhaps it's the Lhasa in her making her more of a princess lol.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I grew up with a Lhasa mix, and I would say it sounds like the Lhasa side coming out. Most Poodles are pretty easy to train, though they're also clever enough to figure out how to game the system or manipulate you into giving them what they want. I have a Poodle mix now, but even the purebred Poodles I've fostered were more like my old Cattle Dog than my old Lhasa in terms of trainability. Including a tendency to try to outsmart you, lol. They're just a lot softer and more sensitive than your average Cattle Dog.

Obviously individuals vary within any breed. But Lhasas are known for being a bit more stubborn. Or if you want to put it a nicer way, they tend to be less interested in the things that their owners want them to be interested in - ie, they like lying on a comfortable couch more than eating a delicious treat. So motivating them to do what you want instead of what they want can be tough.

By the way, what you mention about making you walk over instead of running to you sounds like a great example of a dog training you. Poodle smarts in a Lhasa ego could probably tend toward that kind of thing, I imagine. :laugh: I foresee a lot of patience needed to win out on that kind of thing. If waiting for you to come to her works, she's going to keep doing it.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I don't think there are more breeds used to work in circus than poodles, all three sizes (not that working in a circus is a good thing for a dog). Poodles also excel at agility. They are ranked number 2 in the most intelligent dogs, right after the border collie.

I don't think poodles are stubborn at all from what I Have seen. Lhassa Apsos, on the other hand, were bred to be the king's dog. Not much was asked of them, just to be by the king side. And they were treated as royaltie. This is probably still in their genes...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I hear ya. I've had GSDs Labs and a Doberman, Chihuahuas and a few mixed breeds, a hound foster dog and now the Poodles. The Lab had a teensy bit of that independent thing that I see in my Poodles but over all, was very, very easy to train. The Doberman and GSD would fall over backwards to comply, once they knew what you meant. They lived to "work." Easy to motivate. Almost anything pleased them. I find with the Poodles that they're fairly easy to motivate but do have lots of thinking going on. Sometimes they are very willing to comply but they want to show me a better way to do it. LOL. (My Dobe was a little that way)_ "Okay, okay...I hear ya. But here, let me show you how your way isn't as good as my way." _ So a little round about at times but that just means we have to try to keep one step ahead, which isn't always easy. I find out what motivates Matisse, for instance and think that's going to work forever. Well, it doesn't. I have to surprise him sometimes because he surprises me. I need to change things up a little. He gets bored _easily_. I would say out of the two Poodles, he's the more intelligent. My little Chihuahua, Jose` is incredibly smart too and pretty darn willing to go along with my program. haha. My other Chihuahua (rip) wasn't as bright I don't think as Jose`. But oh so cute.

Australian Cattle Dogs are very work oriented I've found...a really neat breed and smart. Herding dogs are cool. Poodles are exceedingly intelligent and once you get on the same page with them, they're wonderfully fun to train. But they're not always as easy as some breeds. I remember with horses too, back when I was so into horses in my younger days that I preferred training a horse with more average intelligence. 

Sometimes I tell Matisse, "If you were any smarter, you'd be dangerous." lol. But it's true...they are _extremely_ sensitive and intuitive. My little Poodles look so deeply into my eyes as if to ask me what I want. They do want to learn and comply. But they're also thinking a lot and busy, distracted pretty easily, as they're still young... and once I get through all that, they're really pretty neat to train. But bottom line...find what motivates your dog. Do what you have to in order to increase the value of those motivators. Set your dog up to succeed so it's easy to succeed and be reinforced for it a lot. And training will come right along.


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## AnneMarie (Feb 19, 2016)

Thank you all. I was assuming her princess like attitude was from her Lhasa side, but I was curious if Poodles were that way as well. Thanks everyone. I'm sure one day I will figure out what will motivate her to listen lol.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I wonder if they all have 'selective hearing' in addition to being 'self serving'? 
I want to call Molly well trained, but what I found is that I am well trained instead, so I just chalk it up to her poodle half and call it a day, and then try to convince her that she must listen to me, in any way I can! LOL! Thank goodness I'm patient.......... a little push, a little pull, is my MO!


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## AnneMarie (Feb 19, 2016)

Yes! My little one takes selective hearing to a whole new level! When I first brought her home she had a ton of ear hair so we thought she was having a hard time listening because she couldn't hear us well. After months of her having perfectly clean ears, she hasn't changed. We went to the park the other day and I called her mid run after a bird. She stopped, looked right at me and turned back to take after the bird. With a fourth NO and Stop she finally listened. She reminds me of a devilish toddler. She knows she's not allowed and hears you saying no but continues with a smirk.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I think mine are cats in dogs suits, it's like leave a message I'll get back to you. I think it's also they are still young, my pups are 18 months and 2 yrs, totally what's in it for me.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

The smartest dog I ever had was an American Eskimo. It only took one time to show her and that was it. When she was a puppy, I walked the property line with her, and from that point on, at night I would let her out to chase a herd of deer and she would just stop at the property line. She was amazing . She always looked at me like "what's next?".


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I wonder if they all have 'selective hearing' in addition to being 'self serving'?
> I want to call Molly well trained, but what I found is that I am well trained instead, so I just chalk it up to her poodle half and call it a day, and then try to convince her that she must listen to me, in any way I can! LOL! Thank goodness I'm patient.......... a little push, a little pull, is my MO!


Yes but Molly is Royalty too!!
Eric


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I think that behavior is Lhaso Apso. I consider Buck to be fairly stubborn, but unless he has an opossum or my husband's reading glasses in his mouth, he's going to come and not just stand there staring. I love that about Poodles! They REALLY want to be with their people.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

I had two Golden Retrievers years ago, smart but very malleable, I think for them it was easier to go with the flow, my Beagles very happy go lucky and their stomach and nose was always in charge, our Corgi really smart, in control of himself and the situation. Our sweet big poodle, Lola the most stubborn dog I have ever owned, nothing to do it intelligence just stubborn as H*ll.


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## AnneMarie (Feb 19, 2016)

West U said:


> I had two Golden Retrievers years ago, smart but very malleable, I think for them it was easier to go with the flow, my Beagles very happy go lucky and their stomach and nose was always in charge, our Corgi really smart, in control of himself and the situation. Our sweet big poodle, Lola the most stubborn dog I have ever owned, nothing to do it intelligence just stubborn as H*ll.



I agree. Shes very smart and knows the household rules and follows them. Shes not allowed in the kitchen and will wait on the carpet for me to finish. Even if her toy rolls onto the kitchen floor she sits just outside crying, trying to stretch far enough to reach it, as if the floor is lava. Shes such a character but it drives me nuts when she just stares blankly at you when you tell her to come here. If it were possible, I know she would roll her eyes at me lol. :argh: I had no idea Lhasas were this tough! I don't think I could ever own another Lhasa or mix. I love her to pieces, but I do enjoy having a people pleasing Velcro breed lol. :adore:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

AnneMarie said:


> Hi everyone. I've never had a purebred Poodle, but I do have a Lhasapoo and I was curious if her personality is more of her Poodle side or her Lhasa Apso side.
> 
> My little girl is 8lbs, almost 1yr old. She tends to have a 'what's in it for me' attitude with everything! She is very smart and has learned many tricks and rules, but she still has not mastered 'come' yet. Even in the house when I tell her to come here, she stares at me for a good couple minutes until I finally get fed up and walk over to her. She's started a new thing of running under chairs and when I reach under to pull her out she goes limp. She won't come to us for treats, food, toys, nothing, unless she thinks it's worth her time. It makes bed time a pain in the butt!
> 
> I'm curious if your Poodles do this also or if this could be from her Lhasa parentage? Thanks!


Poodles specifically are smart enough that they definitely tend to have the tendency to think for themselves rather than blindly do what is asked of them (something a golden might do  )


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Poodles specifically are smart enough that they definitely tend to have the tendency to think for themselves rather than blindly do what is asked of them (something a golden might do  )



Yes, Timi will definitely try to tell me that she knows a better way at times, but she has also learned that mama has some power to make good things happen and to watch her back when she listens, so she will usually allow me to override her opinion now lol!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

seminolewind said:


> The smartest dog I ever had was an American Eskimo. It only took one time to show her and that was it. When she was a puppy, I walked the property line with her, and from that point on, at night I would let her out to chase a herd of deer and she would just stop at the property line. She was amazing . She always looked at me like "what's next?".


I have train all my poodles that way, not one walk but 5 or six times on the leash and gentle pool them back when they went off the property line and say AH Back. The only reason I want a fence is to keep other dogs away from Bella as she will not leave, and when done comes right back does not wounder around


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

seminolewind said:


> The smartest dog I ever had was an American Eskimo. It only took one time to show her and that was it. When she was a puppy, I walked the property line with her, and from that point on, at night I would let her out to chase a herd of deer and she would just stop at the property line. She was amazing . She always looked at me like "what's next?".


Perfect example of how the poodle is smarter. Smart enough to choose to what he wants to do and not just listen to what you want him to do without very convincing reason.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

My grandog is a Lhasa- and he is quintessential Lhasa personality! He is seven now and we dog sit fairly often, so have gotten to know him well. He does exactly what he wants when he wants to do it. There is no convincing him to do anything that is not on his agenda! We are here to serve his needs- more like a cat.

Totally bonded to my daughter in law- very much a one person dog, but he will accept others when he realizes she is not coming back....after 24 hours or so. He is so funny, and quite neurotic. Very different from a poodle personality. He interacts at a distance with my dogs, but for at least two years, refused to make eye contact with them. I think he truly does not believe he is the same species. Stubborn is a word I would associate with him. 

But he is a total sweetie. Once he realizes my DIL isn't coming back right away, I become second best, and he is just a love. And other than his personality quirks, is a very easy dog. My three are little houligans(especially that Lily!)and he is a very calm, placid guy. Before he moves, he thinks hard about whether it's worth his effort!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

AnneMarie said:


> Hi everyone. I've never had a purebred Poodle, but I do have a Lhasapoo and I was curious if her personality is more of her Poodle side or her Lhasa Apso side.
> 
> My little girl is 8lbs, almost 1yr old. She tends to have a 'what's in it for me' attitude with everything! She is very smart and has learned many tricks and rules, but she still has not mastered 'come' yet. Even in the house when I tell her to come here, she stares at me for a good couple minutes until I finally get fed up and walk over to her. She's started a new thing of running under chairs and when I reach under to pull her out she goes limp. She won't come to us for treats, food, toys, nothing, unless she thinks it's worth her time. It makes bed time a pain in the butt!
> 
> I'm curious if your Poodles do this also or if this could be from her Lhasa parentage? Thanks!



All of my Poodles were very easy to train, and were always wanting to please. I can't remember a time when they didn't come to me when I called them. And I just gave basic training to my dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well in the meantime you need a reliable recall, poodle, Lhasa or mix of any breeds.

If your pup doesn't come to you on the word "come," then you have to stop using that word. It means nothing to her. She has been taught that it doesn't matter one bit. A recall can be a life saving command so stop teaching her that coming to you doesn't matter.

Pick a new word, but don't use it until you are sure she knows that she has to come back to you. Put her on a leash and have her sit and wait until you walk out to the end of the leash and turn to face her. Gesture for her to come to you and hold out a treat. Repeat until you can fade the treat. Now you can start to add your new word. Once that is really reliable on a 6' leash then get a long line and start to add distance. Keep her on leash for this until she comes to you reliably in the house then take it to your back yard, then to your front yard. This is not a thing to skip.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't know, I think poodles can be very stubborn. The two females I've had at least. Especially the toy (don't think it had anything to do with her size, but she had a stubborn personality).

If Naira is on a leash, and she sees something more interesting that she wants to do...she absolutely will not move forward with what I want to do. I mean she will dig her heels into the concrete/grass and refuse to move. I thought she was over this until it just happened.

I had been letting her run off leash from the front door to the opening for the backyard since January with absolutely no issues. Today, she decided she wanted to run into street/parking lot because she saw someone getting in their car. 

So on the way back inside the house, I put her on the leash. She still doesn't walk very nicely on it. Her idea of walking is jumping up and pulling in the direction she wants to go. When you get her to stop, or sit, or be a tree, she will start again by literally springing in the direction she wants to go... Anyway, we were on the leash walking back into the house and she saw a kid about 300 feet from us on the opposite side of the street. 

Of course the kid didn't make my life easier, by stopping and staring and being even more distracting. Anyway, she was the one that "became a tree" and literally would not move and had to be carried inside the house.

I know there are a myriad of training techniques you can do to get the dog to do what you want to do, but the three poodles I've had definitely have had stubborn streaks. I've worked with dogs that aren't nearly as smart or trainable as poodles, but were far less stubborn. Or maybe they weren't smart enough to try and outsmart their owner.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Dumb dogs are easy to train.

you can have a dog who knows he's a dog
you can have a dog who thinks he's human
Or you can have a standard poodle
They know they are a poodle
They recognize other poodles
They know who humans are
Humans are the stupid ones who think they know everything!
Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

ericwd9 said:


> Dumb dogs are easy to train.
> 
> you can have a dog who knows he's a dog
> you can have a dog who thinks he's human
> ...


For sure!!!!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Revisiting this topic now that I have a non-poodle in the house (my little spitzy mystery mutt), it is pretty interesting. I wouldn't say Cleo is a dumb dog, but she's so much more _simple_ to train than Archie is. Food is good. You give me food for it, I do it.

With Archie, it's like he's too hyper aware of how many options he has at a given time. Like sure, treats and/or toys are _usually_ the best options, but maybe there's something else I'd rather be doing. Also, is that the same toy we have at home? Because I'll just get it there, thanks. And that's the same treat you gave me last time I did this for you? Oh, well in that case, I'll go sniff at this other thing I haven't seen yet, juuuust in case it's better. It's like I always have to be a step ahead.

On the other hand, Archie has taught _himself _dozens of different things, some of which are helpful. Like he knows what exact series of clicks mean that I'm locking my work computer for a break, so he can go get ready by his leash. Or which shoes mean he's getting a walk and which mean he can just relax and watch me go. And he's learned so many words I'm pretty sure he'll start keeping up his end of the conversation pretty soon here. Meanwhile Cleo knows her name, because her name means food.


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