# Leaky Anal Glands When Relaxed



## PeggyTheParti

This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.

Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.

She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.

She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.

Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


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## bluegirl1997

Wow I’ve never heard of that before. But one of my standard poodles used to occasionally get an impacted anal gland which seemed really painful, poor thing, especially when the vet had to express it. Peggy’s version seems healthier! Sorry it’s so disgusting, I wouldn’t care for that either. 


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## PeggyTheParti

bluegirl1997 said:


> Wow I’ve never heard of that before. But one of my standard poodles used to occasionally get an impacted anal gland which seemed really painful, poor thing, especially when the vet had to express it. Peggy’s version seems healthier! Sorry it’s so disgusting, I wouldn’t care for that either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm happy she's not in pain, but yep. So disgusting. And also really annoying when you're relaxing in the evening and have to do a stinky load of laundry. 

I've been digging around online for a good 8 months, and have only turned up a handful of similar stories. Always seems to be the opposite issue. 

I suppose we could just keep her off the bed and couch, but that's a sad thought. I love poodle cuddles. Maybe I should consider a diaper for her. Is that extreme for something that doesn't happen daily or even necessarily weekly?


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## Raindrops

Misha had one leak slightly while snuggling a couple weeks ago. Horrible! I'm so sorry. I can't imagine dealing with it all the time. I know somebody who had their dog's glands removed because they kept leaking like that. I think it was a simple surgery. I would look into it.


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## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> Misha had one leak slightly while snuggling a couple weeks ago. Horrible! I'm so sorry. I can't imagine dealing with it all the time. I know somebody who had their dog's glands removed because they kept leaking like that. I think it was a simple surgery. I would look into it.


It's amazing how little it takes to stink up a couch! 

She's still not been spayed, so I suppose we could look into doing it at the same time. But I worry about incontinence.

Leaky glands wouldn't seem like such a big deal anymore if she started leaking poop. Eek!


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## bluegirl1997

I know it’s not the same but you remind me of myself, wondering how on earth I can keep our dogs from eating junk in the woods. It includes ohhhh mouse poop, deer hair (yes! Evidently it’s delicious), a pine cone. So I have pondered, what about poodle masks? Muzzles, but not like Hannibal style. Google says they fall off, and part of me thinks they might dim the woods experience. Oh but something I’ve done you might want to try before diapers is, if you put some men’s underwear on Peggy with her tail out the y-front you can try out how diapers might work, but without the bulk. I’ve used them when my Poodle was in heat (she’s never been bred but I waited a few years before spaying her). 


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## Dechi

As you know Beckie has the same problem. The vet had told me it could be related to her food allergies (she has been having gastric problem since puppy hood). She doesn’t leak as far as I know (she probably does, but in tiny amount that I don’t see) but the vet has also expressed her glands to my request when she was smelling fishy, ad told me they weren’t full.

I have learned to do it myself because it was getting ridiculous, it has to be done every 2 weeks, sometimes even 7-10 days.

BUT... And this is a big but with many ifs... Since her last gastric flare-up 2 weeks ago, she has only been eating homemade boiled chicken/rice the first weeks and now she is on raw turkey. Only turkey meat, organs and bones. No carbs, no artificial or synthetic ingredients, nothing else.

Her stools are small and very firm, and she hasn’t had Glandex in 3 weeks, because I needed to let her pancreas rest. No problems with her glands either (touch wood) since she started being ill (you’d think her stools being so tiny it would make it worse).

Since she has been having so many problems all her life with dozens of kibble and canned food, either from the vet or the best commercial food I could find (and I’ve tried many different proteins) I decided to put her on the only food she had never been on : raw.

We’re still in trial mode. The turkey she is on is very low fat, but soon I will be giving her different proteins and if it works well, she will stay on it, maybe with dehydrated raw because it is much more convenient.

I’m not saying it’s what Peggy’s problem is, but it’s definitely something to consider (allergies).


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## Willowgirl

I’ve been reading about this all over a group on Facebook because I fear Willow has developed this problem as well. People swear by a spoonful of 100% canned pumpkin(not the pie mix) with her food. It’s a healthy thing to try at the very least. Let me know if you’ve tried it! I’m going to get some tomorrow. Good luck!


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## PeggyTheParti

Willowgirl said:


> I’ve been reading about this all over a group on Facebook because I fear Willow has developed this problem as well. People swear by a spoonful of 100% canned pumpkin(not the pie mix) with her food. It’s a healthy thing to try at the very least. Let me know if you’ve tried it! I’m going to get some tomorrow. Good luck!


Have you ever had Willow's checked and/or expressed by your vet? 

Peggy vomits up pumpkin, so not gonna go there again. But she does enjoy green beans and other veggies. Maybe I should increase how much she's getting.

The problem with everything I've read online is it tends to focus on impacted glands rather than the opposite. She already has solid, well-formed poops, and her glands empty regularly. It's more like she's lacking muscle tone or control or something. I wonder if tail docking can cause this? But I suppose that would cause incontinence, too.


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## PeggyTheParti

bluegirl1997 said:


> I know it’s not the same but you remind me of myself, wondering how on earth I can keep our dogs from eating junk in the woods. It includes ohhhh mouse poop, deer hair (yes! Evidently it’s delicious), a pine cone. So I have pondered, what about poodle masks? Muzzles, but not like Hannibal style. Google says they fall off, and part of me thinks they might dim the woods experience. Oh but something I’ve done you might want to try before diapers is, if you put some men’s underwear on Peggy with her tail out the y-front you can try out how diapers might work, but without the bulk. I’ve used them when my Poodle was in heat (she’s never been bred but I waited a few years before spaying her).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We used those when Peggy was in heat, too, on her light days. They'd be no match for this stinky liquid, though. Today's episode went straight through a sheet, onto a favourite quilt.

And you're not alone with the grazing dogs! Peggy still loses her brain sometimes and picks up rocks. The big ones make me worry about her teeth, but the small ones scare the you-know-what out of me! One of these days, she's going to accidentally swallow one. A Hannibal Lecter mask doesn't sound like such a bad idea.....


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## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> I’m not saying it’s what Peggy’s problem is, but it’s definitely something to consider (allergies).


This has actually come up a few times now in my research. And Peggy's eyes do regularly flare up with goop, which our vet attributes to allergies.

Her digestive system is chugging along so nicely, though. I hate to mess with her diet too much. And raw turns her into a beast, so that's off the table, at least for now.

One thing I might consider is taking her off chicken for a while. It's in almost everything she eats, but I could easily switch to different proteins within the same brands.

And we do have a holistic vet about an hour from here, who I've been really wanting to try. 

I hope you'll keep me posted on Beckie's progress with raw!


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## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> I hope you'll keep me posted on Beckie's progress with raw!


I will, I’ll probably open a post somewhere down the line but now I’m afraid to jinx it, lol !


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## PixieDust

PeggyTheParti said:


> And raw turns her into a beast, so that's off the table, at least for now.


Hi PeggytheParti,

Just curious by what you mean by that? Pixie is incredibly picky with kibble. She'll eat most other things including veggies and fruit but many days she just outright refuses her kibble and being a growing girl, I get worried as she is definitely on the thin side. Stools often tend toward mushy, but I've blamed it on the sheer amount of veg she can put away (begs with soulful eyes for cucumber, lettuce, tomatoes, apples, etc etc etc and during the teething phase I've been generous with veggies). When I can get her to eat kibble, her stools improve a lot.

I've been toying with the idea of a raw diet but have never fed my dogs raw before. Does Peggy have general behavioral changes or is it more food guarding because the raw items are more valuable?

Thanks!


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## PeggyTheParti

PixieDust said:


> Hi PeggytheParti,
> 
> Just curious by what you mean by that? Pixie is incredibly picky with kibble. She'll eat most other things including veggies and fruit but many days she just outright refuses her kibble and being a growing girl, I get worried as she is definitely on the thin side. Stools often tend toward mushy, but I've blamed it on the sheer amount of veg she can put away (begs with soulful eyes for cucumber, lettuce, tomatoes, apples, etc etc etc and during the teething phase I've been generous with veggies). When I can get her to eat kibble, her stools improve a lot.
> 
> I've been toying with the idea of a raw diet but have never fed my dogs raw before. Does Peggy have general behavioral changes or is it more food guarding because the raw items are more valuable?
> 
> Thanks!


Just guarding. She's fine with all other food, treats, chews, etc. but the one time I gave her a raw chicken wing, she growled when I tried to pet her.

To be clear: I shouldn't have tried to pet her! I should have left her to eat it in peace. But I'm so used to her enjoying affection while she chews, I didn't think anything of it. 

She's had a couple of other guarding episodes (a hair scrunchie she vomited up, a clump of grass) and I'm not interested in triggering those feelings around food, considering she's usually so happy to share. 

But don't let that deter you from exploring your options!

Peggy's picky, too. I understand the struggle. If you want to keep trying kibble, I've had the best luck with Farmina and Honest Kitchen Clusters. Peggy also really likes Weruva canned chicken. I use it as a topper.


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## For Want of Poodle

PTP - what about homecooked? I'm sure she'd like it, maybe not quite as much as raw(!), and you could try limiting to one protein and one carb source (Annie does well on beef or pork or turkey, not on chicken or duck or with any fish).


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## PeggyTheParti

For Want of Poodle said:


> PTP - what about homecooked? I'm sure she'd like it, maybe not quite as much as raw(!), and you could try limiting to one protein and one carb source (Annie does well on beef or pork or turkey, not on chicken or duck or with any fish).


She'd probably love it! I think that'll be my next option if switching up her proteins doesn't help. I do think she's getting way too much chicken right now.


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## VanessaC

If you’re not squeamish about raw meat, you can try hand feeding meatballs to try and help prevent the guarding... if you ever decide to go that route again.


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## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> If you’re not squeamish about raw meat, you can try hand feeding meatballs to try and help prevent the guarding... if you ever decide to go that route again.


I was handfeeding the chicken wing when she growled. But again—I reached up to pet her head, which was silly. Plus, I was feeding it to her outside, and there were tons of neighbourhood noises that had her on edge while she was experiencing this brand new, high value food.

For someone who should really know better, I made a startling number of mistakes. Lol.

I like the meatball idea. I'll give that a try, inside her x-pen and minus the petting.


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## Mufar42

PeggyTheParti said:


> Have you ever had Willow's checked and/or expressed by your vet?
> 
> Peggy vomits up pumpkin, so not gonna go there again. But she does enjoy green beans and other veggies. Maybe I should increase how much she's getting.
> 
> 
> How much pumpkin did you give Peggy that she threw it up? I always start out slow and my chihuahuas were able to take a tablespoon, but we worked up from a teaspoon. Glandex also contains pumpkin, though I think its from the seed. It is normally given when their glands are not expressing on their own and is suppose to help with that. So maybe she doesn't need this. You may want to try stopping it and see. As long as her stool remains hard she should be expressing them on her own. Always be sure it is canned pumpkin and not pie mix . (you did mention this) Rule of thumb is larger dogs (approximately 75 pounds) can be fed 1 tablespoon. I add it to their meal and not alone.
> Some causes are obesity, poor diet (WE know these are not factors for Peggy), allergies or the sac itself can have an abnormal opening. I've read before that they can remove them but its not done very often now because of complications. (I don't know what they are or I don't remember). I think there is a medication they can give if all else fails.
> I'm also a believer that the glands should not be expressed unless there is a problem, some groomers express them every time a dog get groomed and I think that in itself cases more problems than not. I've had one dog that had really poor glands and he had to be express every few months only if I noticed him scooting or some swelling. For him the added pumpkin in his meals worked most times.
> 
> I hope Peggy's leaking stops on its own, and it may as she ages a bit more. I think that is the worst smell ever. LOL and hopefully you don't have to express her glands at all.


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## PeggyTheParti

It is truly the worst smell!! 

I can't recall how much pumpkin I gave her. Probably a heaping spoonful? But she vomited shortly afterwards, which is rare for her, so I decided not to push it. But you're right, the Glandex does contain pumpkin. Maybe I'll try again at some point, but she enjoys so many other veggies, it may not be necessary.

She also can't tolerate whole egg, but is fine with dry egg in her food. 

Wait. Or maybe she isn't?? Maybe that's actually the source of all these problems. Sigh. I think switching over to a simple homemade diet for a few weeks might be necessary. But we've got these massive bags of kibble to get through.


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## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> Sigh. I think switching over to a simple homemade diet for a few weeks might be necessary. But we've got these massive bags of kibble to get through.


That’s a major problem. I think I had 3 bags of kibble and about 3-4 different kinds of canned food, maybe 10-12 cans. Fortunately I was able to get refunded for most of it, but I still lost a lot of money. Also I hate wasting food.

You need to keep some on hand though and maybe you can freeze some ?


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## Liz

Just following along here, PTP, but wanted to say that I'm so sorry you've been dealing with this. Yuck! I'm not familiar with this problem, but it seems like you're puzzling through it the right way. I hope it's food related and doesn't require surgery. Best to you both.


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## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> That’s a major problem. I think I had 3 bags of kibble and about 3-4 different kinds of canned food, maybe 10-12 cans. Fortunately I was able to get refunded for most of it, but I still lost a lot of money. Also I hate wasting food.
> 
> You need to keep some on hand though and maybe you can freeze some ?


You definitely get it!

I do like the freezing idea. But I'd have to empty out the human food to make room. I think what I'm going to do is start slowly crowding out the chicken with other proteins—a more gradual approach, rather than an elimination diet. But the egg is going to be tricky, as it seems to be in all my favourite dog foods. Hoping chicken is the culprit.


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## PeggyTheParti

Liz said:


> Just following along here, PTP, but wanted to say that I'm so sorry you've been dealing with this. Yuck! I'm not familiar with this problem, but it seems like you're puzzling through it the right way. I hope it's food related and doesn't require surgery. Best to you both.


Thanks for the encouragement.  In the grand scheme of poodle probs, it's really not a big one. But yesterday she had diarrhea for the first time ever (I'm sure I jinxed it by bragging about her beautiful poops lol) and today it's been non-stop gas. So between that and the goopy eyes, I think I do need to re-evaluate her diet.

It's also possible that she has environmental allergies. That's what the vet thinks is causing her eye goop. Grass pollen is so bad today, I finally had to run out to Walgreens for some Claritin for myself.


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## For Want of Poodle

Natural Balance has some really good LID that are actually single protein and single grain if you want to try that... Trixie eats the chicken and sweet potato LID.

I get you on the bags of extra kibble issue. I bought a nearly 40 lb bag for Annie while I was struggling to find food for her, I'd (FINALLY) found one that worked, and accidentally grabbed a different but similar variety from the same brand of a "better quality" than the last bag (Acana Ranchlands instead of Classic Red). She it threw up repeatedly, would pick around it if I left a few kibbles in the bowl with her "good" food (implying it really didn't agree with her) and I'd already thrown out the packaging. My sister's dog was VERY happy with it though! 

If it's a bit milder of an intolerance, I've been known to mix in about 7 parts "good" kibble with 1 part "bad" kibble to get rid of whole bags of food that Annie didn't tolerate well in her puppy days.


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## Maggied

I recently was reading dog food adviser's list of recommended foods. One reviewer said one of them had cured her dogs fecal leaking. Sorry, I don't remember which one, but it was recent. Might be worth looking for it. Good luck, my pup has urinary incontinence after spaying. They put her on estrogen supplement; I am not happy about it!


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## rkj__

I can offer no advice, only my sympathies. 

Your original post in this thread describes my doodle almost exactly. I think overall, my pup has less discharge, and perhaps less frequency, but more or less the same, complete with sometimes months of no detected discharge. My pup does not have goopy eyes, or any other issues which could possibly be related. Firm stool too. No signs of discomfort, or scooting.


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## PeggyTheParti

I appreciate the sympathy, rkj. And I'm so sorry you can relate.

It happened again last night on freshly washed sheets. Ugh. How can just a _tiny_ drop of anything smell that bad??


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## PeggyTheParti

Maggied said:


> I recently was reading dog food adviser's list of recommended foods. One reviewer said one of them had cured her dogs fecal leaking. Sorry, I don't remember which one, but it was recent. Might be worth looking for it. Good luck, my pup has urinary incontinence after spaying. They put her on estrogen supplement; I am not happy about it!


I'm so sorry to hear that. How old was your pup when she was spayed? 

The risk of fecal incontinence is one of the reasons why I'm wary of removing Peggy's anal sacs. Since they're not impacted or infected in any way, it would be purely to avoid the inconvenience of these occasional "deposits." I still plan to discuss the option with our vet.


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## PeggyTheParti

Hmmm. I just had a thought! Since the anal glands are intended to leave behind a stinky "calling card" for other dogs, could this actually be a form of marking?

I thought relaxation was the common denominator. But it seems that the common denominator is actually her proximity to us.

I've never detected it on her bed or in her crate, which doesn't make sense if it happens specifically when she's relaxed.

Maybe she _does_ have control over it.


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## VanessaC

That would be soo mean if she’s actually intentionally marking with that... 🙈


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## FloofyPoodle

PeggyTheParti said:


> Hmmm. I just had a thought! Since the anal glands are intended to leave behind a stinky "calling card" for other dogs, could this actually be a form of marking?
> 
> I thought relaxation was the common denominator. But it seems that the common denominator is actually her proximity to us.
> 
> I've never detected it on her bed or in her crate, which doesn't make sense if it happens specifically when she's relaxed.
> 
> Maybe she _does_ have control over it.


What a stinker, literally! 😂


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## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> She also can't tolerate whole egg, but is fine with dry egg in her food.


Egg will give the runs if you don't do a slow introduction. She would probably be fine if you started out with a little and worked her up. It's just a rich food.


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## Dogs4Life

PeggyTheParti said:


> Hmmm. I just had a thought! Since the anal glands are intended to leave behind a stinky "calling card" for other dogs, could this actually be a form of marking?
> 
> I thought relaxation was the common denominator. But it seems that the common denominator is actually her proximity to us.
> 
> I've never detected it on her bed or in her crate, which doesn't make sense if it happens specifically when she's relaxed.
> 
> Maybe she _does_ have control over it.


Maybe she needs to be in a dog diaper for a while to test this theory? I would think that if she leaks in the diaper, then it wouldn't be intentional?


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## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> Egg will give the runs if you don't do a slow introduction. She would probably be fine if you started out with a little and worked her up. It's just a rich food.


No diarrhea, thankfully. But she got extremely itchy. That's why I'm thinking the small amount in her food might be a low-grade allergen. 

The only goopy-eye trigger I've 100% nailed down is our groomer's shampoo.


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## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> That would be soo mean if she’s actually intentionally marking with that... 🙈





FloofyPoodle said:


> What a stinker, literally! 😂


Very on-brand for my mischievous poodle!


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## PeggyTheParti

Dogs4Life said:


> Maybe she needs to be in a dog diaper for a while to test this theory? I would think that if she leaks in the diaper, then it wouldn't be intentional?


I'm not sure if that would stop a dog from marking or not. Do they really understand the concept of diapers? She peed in hers during her first heat, when I forgot to take it off her. That was fun.


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## Maggied

Maggied said:


> I recently was reading dog food adviser's list of recommended foods. One reviewer said one of them had cured her dogs fecal leaking. Sorry, I don't remember which one, but it was recent. Might be worth looking for it. Good luck, my pup has urinary incontinence after spaying. They put her on estrogen supplement; I am not happy about it!


She was about six or seven months, if I remember correctly. Had not had a cycle yet; I was told to go ahead. Not sure it was wise, but water under a bridge. Hope your sweetie will be ok. It is curious that it is doesn't happen in her crate or while she is sleeping. I don't buy into the idea of oppositional behavior intentionally. Could it be a stage between relaxation and deep sleep? I would guess some level of relaxation sets this off. It was a canned food for adults, as I remember. Mine has suddenly developed problems around the dried Canidiae she has been eating for several years. So I was looking into it. Good luck; you have a great pup.


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## Mufar42

I found this on dogstar

The purpose of dog anal glands is somewhat debated. For some time the prevailing theory was that anal glands exist as proof that God hates us. However, most reputable experts now believe that dog anal glands serve to scent mark territory and feces. As such, dog anal glands appear to play a very significant role in the butt sniffing that is so common in our canine companions.
Under normal circumstances the dog anal glands produce and store their fluid. When the dog defecates the glands contract and some of the fluid is expressed through the duct and onto the feces. The feces, and the dog’s territory, are therefore scent marked.
Sometimes, however, things go wrong.
Dogs’ anal glands may empty spontaneously. This commonly is referred to as “shooting the glands” because the nasty fluid, with its concomitant strongly unpleasant odor, has a way of spraying onto nearby objects. Anything that causes fear, stress, or excitement may trigger a dog to shoot his glands. This appears to be linked to sudden contraction of the muscles in the area.
Many things unrelated to fear, stress, and excitement also tend to cause dogs to shoot their glands. Examples include being invited onto a new sofa or into a new car, being invited onto the bed for the first time, being in the presence of a person who is wearing especially fancy clothes (in which case the fluid will be directed onto the clothes), and the presence of guests (especially one’s boss or a new romantic interest) in the house. In these cases the cause of the anal gland release appears to be Murphy’s Law.

In the event of a dog shooting his glands, the people present can take solace in one (and only one) thing: The odor of dog anal glands is typically very transient and it therefore does not linger for too long.
I


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## PeggyTheParti

Lol! Luckily, she doesn't "shoot" anything.

But my dad once jumped out to playfully startle his GSD and it backfired horribly: The poor dog DID shoot fluid from his anal glands....all over the wall.

My dad never did that again.


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## Mufar42

Well if she is not "shooting" which usual occurs by excitement, or marking of sort then I would guess she has an undying problem. Perhaps an still allergy or inflammation of the glands that hasn't been resolved. You also could be controlling her allergy and this leakage is just symptomatic since it occurs infrequently. In other words she still has allergies but they are being controlled as allergies really never go away. I guess if it continues to be a problem I would talk to the vet .


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## kontiki

Interesting thread. My spoo has only had anal gland issues under two circumstances. First is when he is on kibble and has less firm stools. Second was when we were going to a groomer that insisted on expressing his anal glands. I didn't realize the second until someone sent me this link. 









An Important Message to Tell Your Pet's Groomer and Vet…


Pet anal gland problems can be a recurrent, frustrating and stinky issue. Here’s an important message to pet's groomer and vet about the anal gland treatment.




healthypets.mercola.com





When we went back on to a raw diet with appropriate bone content he was fine again. Since the pandemic I have been feeding him one meal a day of raw, and one of kibble, and he is not doing as well (not about anal glands though). So the last 4 days I have gone back to total raw. Very frustrating though as I have not been able to as easily get him as much raw meat as before. For some odd reason my spoo will not eat raw turkey.

When people mention chicken, are you talking about raw chicken, or chicken in kibble. Totally different. Many dogs that have chicken kibble problems do not have raw chicken problems. Also eggs. Are you talking about eggs from CAFO chickens? Or from chickens fed organic and free range?


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## PeggyTheParti

kontiki said:


> Interesting thread. My spoo has only had anal gland issues under two circumstances. First is when he is on kibble and has less firm stools. Second was when we were going to a groomer that insisted on expressing his anal glands. I didn't realize the second until someone sent me this link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An Important Message to Tell Your Pet's Groomer and Vet…
> 
> 
> Pet anal gland problems can be a recurrent, frustrating and stinky issue. Here’s an important message to pet's groomer and vet about the anal gland treatment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> healthypets.mercola.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When we went back on to a raw diet with appropriate bone content he was fine again. Since the pandemic I have been feeding him one meal a day of raw, and one of kibble, and he is not doing as well (not about anal glands though). So the last 4 days I have gone back to total raw. Very frustrating though as I have not been able to as easily get him as much raw meat as before. For some odd reason my spoo will not eat raw turkey.
> 
> When people mention chicken, are you talking about raw chicken, or chicken in kibble. Totally different. Many dogs that have chicken kibble problems do not have raw chicken problems. Also eggs. Are you talking about eggs from CAFO chickens? Or from chickens fed organic and free range?


Peggy reacted to lightly poached organic free range eggs with _extreme_ itchiness. I felt terrible for her. She's never shown an obvious reaction like that to dried egg in kibble, or to chicken in any form (raw, cooked, kibble, treats). But that doesn't mean they're not problematic. I know allergies can be low-grade, and food sensitivity triggers can be cumulative.

The two anal gland circumstances you describe are exactly what I'd expect, and perfectly illustrate why Peggy's situation is so baffling: Her groomer doesn't express her glands AND she has firm, well-formed poops. 

I understood Gracie's issues: She had a very sensitive, anxious tummy and never had great stools. Plus she did the typical scoot. But she never made that fishy smell, at least not inside. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

I have no plans to feed raw. But home-cooked is an option, at least in the short-term.

Have you tried home-cooked?


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## VanessaC

I recommend either BalanceIt or Meal Mix if you’re thinking about home cooking some of her meals. It’s a pretty easy way to make sure you’re getting all the nutrients she needs unless you’re willing to go down the nutrient spreadsheet calculation route...


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## Dechi

I know Peggy can be aggressive with raw food but have you tried all-prepared raw ? Those are frozen patties that you just thaw and serve. They are complete meals and delicious. They eat it so fast, I don’t see how she would even have time to think about resource guarding.


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## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> I know Peggy can be aggressive with raw food but have you tried all-prepared raw ? Those are frozen patties that you just thaw and serve. They are complete meals and delicious. They eat it so fast, I don’t see how she would even have time to think about resource guarding.


She'd probably love that, but tricky for travelling. We're hoping to do some cross-country trips with her. I'll keep it as an option, though. Is there a brand you recommend?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> I recommend either BalanceIt or Meal Mix if you’re thinking about home cooking some of her meals. It’s a pretty easy way to make sure you’re getting all the nutrients she needs unless you’re willing to go down the nutrient spreadsheet calculation route...


That sounds much better than spreadsheets! Thank you


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> She'd probably love that, but tricky for travelling. We're hoping to do some cross-country trips with her. I'll keep it as an option, though. Is there a brand you recommend?


The brands I buy are Canadian. They’re Bold Raw and Big Country Raw. I don’t know if they are available in the States.

For travelling, you could buy freeze dried, which is raw that has gone through a 24 hour process of freezing, without losing any ingredients, flavor or vitamines. It is NOT the same ad dehydrated, which isn’t raw meat.

Freeze dried is very expensive, more so than raw, because of the complex and lengthy process to remain raw meat. But for a few weeks, it might be okay. You can serve it dry or rehydrate it, and apparently dogs go crazy for it (as opposed to dehydrated, which is not very appetizing). I know Smack makes freeze dried and is rated 5 stars. Again, you’d have to check if it’s available in the States. Honest kitchen makes freeze dried also, maybe worth checking out.

The thing with freeze dried (that I’ve seen) is that you will also get other ingredients than meat. Very good ingredients, but not great when you’re doing allergy testing and only want one single ingredient. You’d need to be done testing before you feed it if to make sure you don’t introduce new allergens.

When I’m done testing most meat proteins, I plan on testing some freezed dried as well, for convenience when I have to travel or the dogs need to be boarded.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. 

I fed Gracie an Honest Kitchen dehydrated formula and she loved it. (I loved that it smelled like soup and not dog food.) It was easy to prepare. Just add water.

Peggy's now eating about 50% Honest Kitchen whole food clusters and 25% Farmina. So not cheap or low-quality by kibble standards, but lots of ingredients. The remaining 25% is Weruva canned food. I've found she needs this variety to stay interested in mealtime, but she loves Honest Kitchen so much, I even use it for training.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> I fed Gracie an Honest Kitchen dehydrated formula and she loved it.


Then at least you know she would love freeze dried even more. You’ll have choices if you decide to go the « raw » way.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> Then at least you know she would love freeze dried even more. You’ll have choices if you decide to go the « raw » way.


I've been looking and can't find any mention of Honest Kitchen freeze-dried online. Just the dehydrated formula. Maybe it was discontinued?

But I'm looking at their limited ingredient options, and they might be good. No eggs, at least.


----------



## VanessaC

For premade raw, that’s easily available in the US I recommend Answers (lots of fermented ingredients so great for gut flora), Vital Essentials (most limited ingredient), Small Batch, or Darwin’s (local to Washington and they deliver it to you).
Primal, Stella and Chewy’s, and Tucker’s are all good too.

Most of these brands also have a freeze-dried option. Another raw option for traveling is air-dried food (Ziwi Peak or Real Meat.) It could be good if you’re doing lots of hiking, but could also cause loose stools if she’s not used to it since it’s pretty high in fat. Either one is gonna be pretty expensive...


----------



## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> For premade raw, that’s easily available in the US I recommend Answers (lots of fermented ingredients so great for gut flora), Vital Essentials (most limited ingredient), Small Batch, or Darwin’s (local to Washington and they deliver it to you).
> Primal, Stella and Chewy’s, and Tucker’s are all good too.
> 
> Most of these brands also have a freeze-dried option. Another raw option for traveling is air-dried food (Ziwi Peak or Real Meat.) It could be good if you’re doing lots of hiking, but could also cause loose stools if she’s not used to it since it’s pretty high in fat. Either one is gonna be pretty expensive...


Thank you! I started researching and quickly got overwhelmed. This is really helpful.


----------



## Dechi

VanessaC said:


> Stella and Chewy’s


Stella and Chewy’s is recommended by a dog nutritionist around here.


----------



## Mufar42

I was looking and both Instinct and sojos are freeze dried. I also like Stella & Chewy. I found this link too. Anal gland problems in dogs - natural treatment and prevention - Dr. Dobias Natural Healing


----------



## kontiki

Thanks for the link to Dr Dobias. It's good to find another holistic vet. This was the first time I had heard that anal gland problems could be related to back problems.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> I was looking and both Instinct and sojos are freeze dried. I also like Stella & Chewy. I found this link too. Anal gland problems in dogs - natural treatment and prevention - Dr. Dobias Natural Healing


I find these articles so interesting, but also frustrating because they never match up with Peggy's specific situation.

I've still only found a handful of similar cases online, and they're all just personal stories about people's dogs, on Reddit or similar forums. There's commiseration, but never an expert analysis or explanation.

The one thing that article touches on that I do wonder about is back injury, as Peggy's always been sensitive to being touched on her lower back. No obvious signs of pain, but she'll turn her head around to look at you or nose your hand to say please stop. 

Of course, that could also just be part of her temperament, as she's almost always a little on alert. But that alertness could also explain random anal gland expression....

Hmmm.

Just talking this stuff through for myself. Feel free to ignore me.


----------



## kontiki

Listening to him made me wish there was a dog chiropractor within 600 miles of here.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> The one thing that article touches on that I do wonder about is back injury, as Peggy's always been sensitive to being touched on her lower back. No obvious signs of pain, but she'll turn her head around to look at you or nose your hand to say please stop.
> 
> Of course, that could also just be part of her temperament, as she's almost always a little on alert. But that alertness could also explain random anal gland expression....


I think you’re on to something here. She might also have weak rear-end muscle, including anal, and when she lies down, the way the muscles are positioned, her limited contraction capacity causes the leaking.

Can you find a dog chiropractor near you ? Or maybe an acupunturist, if no chiropractor ?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> I think you’re on to something here. She might also have weak rear-end muscle, including anal, and when she lies down, the way the muscles are positioned, her limited contraction capacity causes the leaking.
> 
> Can you find a dog chiropractor near you ? Or maybe an acupunturist, if no chiropractor ?


She does let out frequent toots! Not smelly or anything, but hilariously audible.

The one hole in this theory, though, is that the gland expression never happens when she's relaxing on the floor or in any of her beds (including in her crate, where she sleeps every night).

I'm going to start asking around about local dog chiropractors, but we're in a small town in a remote area. Makes me wish I was back in Toronto.

There's a holistic vet about an hour from here who, during normal times, could likely be of some help. But not sure when we'll be able to get to her.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> The one hole in this theory, though, is that the gland expression never happens when she's relaxing on the floor or in any of her beds (including in her crate, where she sleeps every night).


Is she a nervous type of dog ? Easily spooked/startled or prone to quickly alert ? Are any of the beds where she doesn’t leak elevated or are they all on the floor ? 

Would it be possible that she feels more safe on your bed, because it has your scent, it’s elevated and let’s her see farther away, so she’s letting her guard down and fully relaxing ?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> Is she a nervous type of dog ? Easily spooked/startled or prone to quickly alert ? Are any of the beds where she doesn’t leak elevated or are they all on the floor ?
> 
> Would it be possible that she feels more safe on your bed, because it has your scent, it’s elevated and let’s her see farther away, so she’s letting her guard down and fully relaxing ?


Thank you for helping me try and figure this out! Gosh, I love this forum.

Her dog beds are all on the ground, so now that I'm thinking about it, all the fishy episodes have occurred while she's elevated—typically on the couch, though also once while we were watching a movie on a mattress on the floor. 

I was going to say maybe the common denominator really is us + elevation, but she's never done it in our bed or the guest room bed. And she will often lounge with a chew on the guest room bed with my husband while he works on his iPad.

And yes, she's definitely very alerty. Unless she's really snoozing hard—like she is as I type this—she'll often give a woof if she hears, for example, a car door slam. And if she's in a deep sleep and I bump/startle her, she sometimes wakes up with a bark before she re-orients herself. Seems like something that _should_ trigger her glands, but nope.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> typically on the couch, though also once while we were watching a movie on a mattress on the floor.


You should write a journal of her leaky episodes : the time, where she was, what she was doing, who else was present.

Hopefully you’ll find a common denominator. This is (sadly) fascinating...


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> You should write a journal of her leaky episodes : the time, where she was, what she was doing, who else was present.
> 
> Hopefully you’ll find a common denominator. This is (sadly) fascinating...


We do keep track of the time and date of each episode, but I'll start adding more details. Thanks for the suggestion!

At least it's not daily, or even weekly. And they're really just the tiniest drips. But sooooooo smelly. And who knows if it'll become a bigger issue in the future. Best to figure it out now.


----------



## VanessaC

If the holistic vet you know doesn’t offer chiropractic services, then my vet could be of some help since I know he does. They’re open now, but you can’t go in with them which was been nerve racking, at least for me. Might be a bit of a drive since they’re all the way out in Kirkland but potentially worth a call. They’re called Finn Hill Animal Hospital.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> If the holistic vet you know doesn’t offer chiropractic services, then my vet could be of some help since I know he does. They’re open now, but you can’t go in with them which was been nerve racking, at least for me. Might be a bit of a drive since they’re all the way out in Kirkland but potentially worth a call. They’re called Finn Hill Animal Hospital.


Thanks, Vanessa! At the very least he might have some closer recommendations for us. I agree that sending them in alone is nerve-wracking, but Peggy didn't even look back and apparently had a wonderful time. This does not bode well for her ability to escape any future dognapping attempts.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Update: Peggy's nose is literally dripping on me right now. Just clear liquidy discharge. I think this might back up our vet's belief that she has seasonal allergies. 

Personally, I'm highly allergic to grass pollen, and it's been brutal the past week or so. She was playing in the grass with a friend for an hour this afternoon.

Not really sure how to manage that, though. I've not read much encouraging about allergy meds for dogs.


----------



## FloofyPoodle

Do you have air filters in the house? I have a dust allergy, and a few hours after I turn my Honeywell on (unplug it for cleaning) my nose mostly stops dripping. Maybe one by where she sleeps?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

FloofyPoodle said:


> Do you have air filters in the house? I have a dust allergy, and a few hours after I turn my Honeywell on (unplug it for cleaning) my nose mostly stops dripping. Maybe one by where she sleeps?


That's a good idea. I've got one in the bedroom, and have been considering moving her crate in there.


----------



## kontiki

This reminds me of amusing 'farts' from my now deceased mate. He would only fart in bed when awake, not when sleeping. So I knew if he had awakened. He didn't believe me at all. One time he did a terribly smelly fart under the covers. It was awful! Then it stunk up all of the covers and took forever to dissipate. He sounded most insulted and said he thought it would be a 'filtered fart'!

I requested that from now on he lift the covers away so that it could wander off into the air.
Sorry for the topic change! I am so lucky. My Spoo has never in 11 years make anything smelly at all.....


----------



## PeggyTheParti

kontiki said:


> This reminds me of amusing 'farts' from my now deceased mate. He would only fart in bed when awake, not when sleeping. So I knew if he had awakened. He didn't believe me at all. One time he did a terribly smelly fart under the covers. It was awful! Then it stunk up all of the covers and took forever to dissipate. He sounded most insulted and said he thought it would be a 'filtered fart'!
> 
> I requested that from now on he lift the covers away so that it could wander off into the air.
> Sorry for the topic change! I am so lucky. My Spoo has never in 11 years make anything smelly at all.....


I very much appreciated this topic change, Kontiki! So funny, and a surprisingly sweet memory. 

"Filtered fart." Lol.

Peggy's the queen of farts. Not stinky ones, but they're _very_ loud, and they often happen when she's jumping up onto something or dropping into a sit. It's impossible not to laugh. I've never heard a dog do that before.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Peggy's had watery diarrhea the past three days, so I'm not surprised her anal glands are acting up. There have been no solid stools to help empty them. But it just happened _twice_ in half an hour, and the second time, instead of just a tiny drop, the liquid had a tarry look to it and left a dark brownish black spot.

The only good thing to come of this is that, in doing my usual googling, I saw a line that I clearly missed the first trillion times I read this article:

"Some dogs even appear to lack control of the anus or anal sac ducts so that small quantities of fluid will drain out when they are resting."









Anal Sac Disease in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


The anal sacs are two small pouches located on either side of the anus at approximately the four o'clock and eight o'clock positions. The walls of the sac produce a foul smelling fluid which is released whenever the dog passes a bowel movement. Bacteria that are normally present in the feces can...




vcahospitals.com





So at least she's not totally unique in this regard. She was sleeping next to us on the couch both times it happened. 

Oh, did I mention our hot water heater broke so I have to boil water to properly clean anything? Laughing/crying.


----------



## Dechi

@PeggyTheParti are you starting to consider removing her anal sacs ?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> @PeggyTheParti are you starting to consider removing her anal sacs ?


I am, though I'd want to consult with a specialist, and travelling isn't really an option right now. Ideally we'd combine it with her spay so she doesn't have to go under twice.

What's driving me nuts is we had three weeks in a row with no episodes, and then five weeks in a row with either one or two. I'm going over all my notes trying to figure out what (if anything) may have been different between those weeks.

The only thing I've come up with is she caught and ate what appeared to be a mouse at the start of those three good weeks.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> I am, though I'd want to consult with a specialist, and travelling isn't really an option right now. Ideally we'd combine it with her spay so she doesn't have to go under twice.


I didn’t realize she was so young and not spayed yet. That’s a very good plan !


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> I didn’t realize she was so young and not spayed yet. That’s a very good plan !


She's almost 14 months and had her first heat at 8.5 months. We're waiting for one more heat before doing her spay surgery.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if whatever critter she ate before those three good weeks actually played a role. I wonder if adding some sort of bone to her diet might be the key.


----------



## Fenris-wolf

You should try it


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> She's almost 14 months and had her first heat at 8.5 months. We're waiting for one more heat before doing her spay surgery.
> 
> The more I think about it, the more I wonder if whatever critter she ate before those three good weeks actually played a role. I wonder if adding some sort of bone to her diet might be the key.


I used to give Misha dead mice to eat when he was a pup. These days he believes they are too fun as toys to eat! Stinker. Bone definitely makes poop harder. Too much bone causes constipation. Each dog is different but they typically do well with 10-15% bone.


----------



## VanessaC

You could also try fur/feathers in addition to a bit of bone.


----------



## Raindrops

VanessaC said:


> You could also try fur/feathers in addition to a bit of bone.


Yes. I give cow ears sometimes for the addition of fur. And quails are popular for feathers.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

VanessaC said:


> You could also try fur/feathers in addition to a bit of bone.





Raindrops said:


> Yes. I give cow ears sometimes for the addition of fur. And quails are popular for feathers.


Where does one get such things?? 

And could I maybe try giving her whole fish? Is there a particular kind that might mimic the bone content of a mouse? I saw freeze dried minnows over at Chewy.com but the reviews weren't great.


----------



## VanessaC

Mine love Vital Essentials minnows, but those might be a bit small.. You can buy frozen sardines at many Asian grocery stores. Those are the largest whole fish I’ve given Groot. Not too sure what the bone content is since I usually give them for the omegas. I also buy smelt from our local store to give to them whole. 

I get a lot from WAzzuOR which is a raw food co-op. Thogersen Family Farm is fairly local and they sell rabbit feet and ears with fur still on them and grinds that are whole prey. You can also ask local farmers at the farmer’s market if they can sell you something of that nature.

You could also probably buy mice from a pet store. They usually sell them for reptiles.


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> Where does one get such things??
> 
> And could I maybe try giving her whole fish? Is there a particular kind that might mimic the bone content of a mouse? I saw freeze dried minnows over at Chewy.com but the reviews weren't great.


A lot of people get quail and rodents from reptile suppliers like Rodentpro. I give fish all the time... usually herring, sardine, or mackerel. They do have bone but I would guess the bone content is not particularly high. You may have to do a little bit of persuading to convince her to eat it if she's not a fish lover. I remember with our family dog she was very unconvinced at first. For safety, it is best to freeze fish for three weeks prior to feeding to be sure they will not transfer parasites.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

So we're coming up on 4 weeks without a fishy episode and I don't have the faintest idea why. This has happened only once before and I'm scouring my Peggy notes, trying to find a common denominator.

If her leakage is due to an anatomical defect, she wouldn't have these extended gaps. So that's off the table.

If it's related to extreme anxiety or extreme relaxation....same thing. Off the table. She's been in heat for the past two weeks and has cycled through every possible state of mind _multiple_ times.

Diet? No major changes. I did introduce beef-flavoured Honest Kitchen kibble as a treat, but I didn't take anything away.

No change to stool consistency, aside from a bout of severe diarrhea of unknown origin.

So....is this destined to be a forever mystery? I'm thinking yes.


----------



## twyla

PeggyTheParti said:


> So we're coming up on 4 weeks without a fishy episode and I don't have the faintest idea why. This has happened only once before and I'm scouring my Peggy notes, trying to find a common denominator.
> 
> If her leakage is due to an anatomical defect, she wouldn't have these extended gaps. So that's off the table.
> 
> If it's related to extreme anxiety or extreme relaxation....same thing. Off the table. She's been in heat for the past two weeks and has cycled through every possible state of mind _multiple_ times.
> 
> Diet? No major changes. I did introduce beef-flavoured Honest Kitchen kibble as a treat, but I didn't take anything away.
> 
> No change to stool consistency, aside from a bout of severe diarrhea of unknown origin.
> 
> So....is this destined to be a forever mystery? I'm thinking yes.


Anal Sacculitis
Idiopathic episodes are soo aggravating, for my Bea it is incontinence, nearest I can figure they happen during a deep nap but no proof in that, have they stopped well hard to say because Bea comes to work now. Hopefully Peggy's woes are over.


----------



## Mufar42

I could be that she had a slight deformity and that with maturing is has straighten itself out. Time will tell.


----------



## Spottytoes

I just read this thread. Interesting....we have actually had the same problem and it has gotten much better. We think it was fear based but maybe there is some sort of abnormality? Who knows? I was thinking the groomer was expressing the glands too much or something but after talking with her she doesn’t routinely do that, only if the dog actually needs it. 
The first time it happened was about a year ago he was at the dog park, which we very rarely go to anymore but that’s another story. He was having fun but then there was this bulldog, who was very nice but played way differently and we decided we should just bring Bobby home. When we were driving home the car just reeked!!!
Had no clue what it was. We’ve always had male dogs but their smell was more musky. This was horrible stinky fish smell! Made the whole room stink! 
When we got home we realized it was Bobby and you all know how we determined that.😂😂😂
Since that day it has happened a handful of times and each time we were able to trace it to fear or uncertainty and it has never had been as bad as that first time. It is a horrible smell so I feel for you but glad it is getting better!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Spottytoes said:


> I just read this thread. Interesting....we have actually had the same problem and it has gotten much better. We think it was fear based but maybe there is some sort of abnormality? Who knows? I was thinking the groomer was expressing the glands too much or something but after talking with her she doesn’t routinely do that, only if the dog actually needs it.
> The first time it happened was about a year ago he was at the dog park, which we very rarely go to anymore but that’s another story. He was having fun but then there was this bulldog, who was very nice but played way differently and we decided we should just bring Bobby home. When we were driving home the car just reeked!!!
> Had no clue what it was. We’ve always had male dogs but their smell was more musky. This was horrible stinky fish smell! Made the whole room stink!
> When we got home we realized it was Bobby and you all know how we determined that.😂😂😂
> Since that day it has happened a handful of times and each time we were able to trace it to fear or uncertainty and it has never had been as bad as that first time. It is a horrible smell so I feel for you but glad it is getting better!


It's totally normal for them to "fish" when they are scared (that's what we call it in our household). I'm glad Bobby doesn't do it often.

It really is the most awful smell. Up until fairly recently, there was no liquid expressed when it happened. So we'd just get that first disgusting whiff and have to track it down with our noses.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> I could be that she had a slight deformity and that with maturing is has straighten itself out. Time will tell.


I was thinking that, too, especially since she's in her second heat cycle now, which is another maturity milestone.

Her puppy vaginitis resolved with her first heat. Can't imagine if we'd spayed her early and she'd never had the chance to develop. I imagine we'd still be dealing with that other unpleasant issue.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

twyla said:


> Anal Sacculitis
> Idiopathic episodes are soo aggravating, for my Bea it is incontinence, nearest I can figure they happen during a deep nap but no proof in that, have they stopped well hard to say because Bea comes to work now. Hopefully Peggy's woes are over.


I've spent a lifetime chasing my own health issues. I feel like I should be better at figuring this stuff out! Lol. 

I love that Bea goes to work with you. The years that Gracie went with me are some of my happiest memories.


----------



## kontiki

How firm are her poos? A couple of people have commented on bone. And yes, it is good for them in the correct amount. The normal amount is 10%, but different dogs have different digestive systems, just like we do.

If my Spoo starts having anything less than a real firm poo, the next meal I feed him is a chicken leg quarter, bone in raw. Never feed cooked bone. The firmer their stools are the more the anal glands will naturally express themselves when they actually go poo.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

kontiki said:


> How firm are her poos? A couple of people have commented on bone. And yes, it is good for them in the correct amount. The normal amount is 10%, but different dogs have different digestive systems, just like we do.
> 
> If my Spoo starts having anything less than a real firm poo, the next meal I feed him is a chicken leg quarter, bone in raw. Never feed cooked bone. The firmer their stools are the more the anal glands will naturally express themselves when they actually go poo.


She has nice firm poos. Always has. Part of what makes this so baffling,

But if it's due to a slight anatomical abnormality, the act of having a bowl movement (even a firm one) might not apply enough pressure to express the glands.

I'm hoping with her second heat, there's been some additional growth which has maybe resolved this. Maybe?

Fingers, toes, and eyes crossed! We're loving this non-fishy poodle.


----------



## Dechi

PeggyTheParti said:


> If it's related to extreme anxiety or extreme relaxation....same thing. Off the table. She's been in heat for the past two weeks and has cycled through every possible state of mind _multiple_ times.


I wouldn’t rule put the anatomical defect. Since she is in heat, her vulva is swollen, and probably some internal organs too, which might be pushing on or covering totally or partly the anatomical defect. Sort of « patching the hole ». I don’t even know if that makes sense at all, but maybe worth asking your vet.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> I wouldn’t rule put the anatomical defect. Since she is in heat, her vulva is swollen, and probably some internal organs too, which might be pushing on or covering totally or partly the anatomical defect. Sort of « patching the hole ». I don’t even know if that makes sense at all, but maybe worth asking your vet.


Ooooooh. That makes a LOT of sense. She's really swollen this time around, too. 

Good thinking, Dechi. Thank you!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Gotta laugh. Peggy just had her worst fishy episode yet. My husband smelled it all the way across the room.

It's been exactly 4 weeks since the last one. 

A blissful 4 weeks.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Today we had a minor fish episode followed immediately by an urgent request to go outside. Anatomical/poop-related anomaly is seeming more and more likely to me. (Thanks, Dechi.)

The first part of Peggy's poops are always doubled up. Sorry if TMI, but I've never seen anything like this before! It's like two poops come out side by side and then a few normal poops follow, single-file. Or sometimes the first poop will look like it's been folded in half. It's massive. And then again, normal poops follow.

This has always been the case, since she was a small puppy. But it never concerned me since her poops were always firm and otherwise well-formed.


----------



## Pugparent

PeggyTheParti said:


> It is truly the worst smell!!
> 
> I can't recall how much pumpkin I gave her. Probably a heaping spoonful? But she vomited shortly afterwards, which is rare for her, so I decided not to push it. But you're right, the Glandex does contain pumpkin. Maybe I'll try again at some point, but she enjoys so many other veggies, it may not be necessary.
> 
> She also can't tolerate whole egg, but is fine with dry egg in her food.
> 
> Wait. Or maybe she isn't?? Maybe that's actually the source of all these problems. Sigh. I think switching over to a simple homemade diet for a few weeks might be necessary. But we've got these massive bags of kibble to get through.





PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


Hello,
Did you ever find a solution for this? The EXACT same thing is happening with my pug. We took her to the vet, and the vet said there was no diseases and her glands weren’t full, but every time she rests with me, and I mean every time, she leaks the stinky fluid. It’s almost an everyday occurrence at this point.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Pugparent said:


> Hello,
> Did you ever find a solution for this? The EXACT same thing is happening with my pug. We took her to the vet, and the vet said there was no diseases and her glands weren’t full, but every time she rests with me, and I mean every time, she leaks the stinky fluid. It’s almost an everyday occurrence at this point.


Oh no. I’m sorry 

We switched half her kibble from chicken to beef and give her a Pet Honesty allergy chew daily. Anything that softens her poops even slightly (like a single treat with glycerin) seems to trigger it. But otherwise it only happens every few weeks, _always_ when she’s resting with us. It’s never happened in any of her beds or her crate.

If she wasn’t prone to resource guarding, I would try a weekly chicken wing or some other raw bone. One thing I can do, which might be helping a little, is I let her eat her own hair. Weird, right? But she only seems to crave it occasionally, which makes me think her body needs it. So after a brushing or clip, I offer her a bit. She’s welcome to as much as she wants, but she only takes it sometimes.

This makes me think she might do best on a primal diet, but I’m wary because of the guarding.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Pugparent said:


> Hello,
> Did you ever find a solution for this? The EXACT same thing is happening with my pug. We took her to the vet, and the vet said there was no diseases and her glands weren’t full, but every time she rests with me, and I mean every time, she leaks the stinky fluid. It’s almost an everyday occurrence at this point.


I should also add that the single best thing we did was get a washable, waterproof couch cover. Do I love the way it looks? No. But it makes life so much easier. Before that we had to strip the couch cushions every time it happened, which is a real pain in the butt.

We also keep detailed notes on her diet, toilet habits, meals, leaks, etc. I hope that a pattern will eventually emerge, but even if it doesn’t, it’s helpful to know how long it’s been since the last episode. My husband always insists it’s only been a few days, when in fact it’s been weeks. Knowing this helps us to roll with it a little better.


----------



## Pugparent

PeggyTheParti said:


> I should also add that the single best thing we did was get a washable, waterproof couch cover. Do I love the way it looks? No. But it makes life so much easier. Before that we had to strip the couch cushions every time it happened, which is a real pain in the butt.
> 
> We also keep detailed notes on her diet, toilet habits, meals, leaks, etc. I hope that a pattern will eventually emerge, but even if it doesn’t, it’s helpful to know how long it’s been since the last episode. My husband always insists it’s only been a few days, when in fact it’s been weeks. Knowing this helps us to roll with it a little better.


Thank you for the tips! It’s crazy how similar our situations are. Our dog only leaks when she’s resting with me...never in her bed or when she’s sleeping alone somewhere. We already have a couch cover because of this ..haha...and yes it’s ugly but necessary at this point.


----------



## Eunicyy

Pugparent said:


> Thank you for the tips! It’s crazy how similar our situations are. Our dog only leaks when she’s resting with me...never in her bed or when she’s sleeping alone somewhere. We already have a couch cover because of this ..haha...and yes it’s ugly but necessary at this point.


Hello, I'm new to this space but my rescue dog (yorkie mix) has been having this exact problem! Originally I noticed her bum scooching a month ago and brought her to the vet. The vet claimed that her anal glands were impacted so he expressed them - and suggested that I put her on a prescription diet (her eyes are leaky and scratches from time to time). He said that he believed all three were related to a food allergies. Im a little hesitant to start her on that because she's not exhibiting any of the other typical allergy symptoms (incessant licking of paws or chewing of paws, and scratching to the point of breaking skin). 

The worst part is my dog is very picky with her kibble and i finally found one that she will eat (Orijen Small Dogs). I've been adding more vegetables to her diet and thankfully she loves eating that. 

In the past week, her bum has been leaking randomly (in 7 days she leaked 4 of those 7). and Similar to you both, she leaks only when she's sitting or relaxed on my lap. Not sure what I should do - someone recommended trying some sort of elimination diet to see what may or may not be causing this. 

Thanks for all your insight. It's definitely been helpful.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Eunicyy said:


> Hello, I'm new to this space but my rescue dog (yorkie mix) has been having this exact problem! Originally I noticed her bum scooching a month ago and brought her to the vet. The vet claimed that her anal glands were impacted so he expressed them - and suggested that I put her on a prescription diet (her eyes are leaky and scratches from time to time). He said that he believed all three were related to a food allergies. Im a little hesitant to start her on that because she's not exhibiting any of the other typical allergy symptoms (incessant licking of paws or chewing of paws, and scratching to the point of breaking skin).
> 
> The worst part is my dog is very picky with her kibble and i finally found one that she will eat (Orijen Small Dogs). I've been adding more vegetables to her diet and thankfully she loves eating that.
> 
> In the past week, her bum has been leaking randomly (in 7 days she leaked 4 of those 7). and Similar to you both, she leaks only when she's sitting or relaxed on my lap. Not sure what I should do - someone recommended trying some sort of elimination diet to see what may or may not be causing this.
> 
> Thanks for all your insight. It's definitely been helpful.


Peggy’s never had impacted glands, but that’s a common problem with small dogs. Have you tried Glandex chews? Some vegetables can actually cause loose stools, which is the opposite of what you want.


----------



## fjm

The only time Sophy has had trouble with her anal glands was when both dogs had a tummy bug that went on for a month or two - all those weeks of soft stools meant the glands did not empty properly, but the first I knew about it was when one ruptured. No scooting or licking before that. Fortunately it healed quickly and easily.

I've found bone is the answer, in just the right quantities. I know you don't want to risk giving Peggy meaty bones, but meat containing ground bone might do the trick. The standard formula is 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal but some varieties like chicken and rabbit tend to be closer to 20% bone. Sophy does best on a little less than 10%, so for her I combine the chicken with at least the same quantity of boneless meat, plus a few mixed vegetables, simmered in plenty of water, but a little high bone content ground meat as a topper may be enough to do the trick for Peggy (and the little Yorkie mix).


----------



## PeggyTheParti

fjm said:


> The only time Sophy has had trouble with her anal glands was when both dogs had a tummy bug that went on for a month or two - all those weeks of soft stools meant the glands did not empty properly, but the first I knew about it was when one ruptured. No scooting or licking before that. Fortunately it healed quickly and easily.
> 
> I've found bone is the answer, in just the right quantities. I know you don't want to risk giving Peggy meaty bones, but meat containing ground bone might do the trick. The standard formula is 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% offal but some varieties like chicken and rabbit tend to be closer to 20% bone. Sophy does best on a little less than 10%, so for her I combine the chicken with at least the same quantity of boneless meat, plus a few mixed vegetables, simmered in plenty of water, but a little high bone content ground meat as a topper may be enough to do the trick for Peggy (and the little Yorkie mix).


I researched bone meal without much luck, but never considered ground meat that contains bone. Do you grind it yourself?

One of the longest periods Peggy’s gone without leaks was when she ate a mystery critter in the backyard. I’d love to give her the equivalent of one raw “mystery critter” per week. It looked about the size of a large mouse.

This is actually something I brought up with the behaviourist. I do suspect it would really benefit her. I’m just nervous because she’s so very relaxed around her food. I’d hate to ruin that.


----------



## Liz

You can buy ground raw, which contains bone. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two large manufacturers/distributors but there's likely someone closer to you, PtP.


----------



## fjm

I buy it ready ground, but with the right equipment you could grind your own.


----------



## Eunicyy

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy’s never had impacted glands, but that’s a common problem with small dogs. Have you tried Glandex chews? Some vegetables can actually cause loose stools, which is the opposite of what you want.


Ive done some research into that and have considered giving it a try 

her poops are definitely not loose. Well formed all the time. Varying in size at times but she poops 2-3 times a day.


----------



## kontiki

Liz said:


> You can buy ground raw, which contains bone. Hare Today and My Pet Carnivore are two large manufacturers/distributors but there's likely someone closer to you, PtP.


Ground raw does not give them the satisfaction and teeth cleaning benefits of actually chewing the bones.

I tried ground raw single animal, and other extremely expensive ground raw with multi animal raw food. It not only drained my bank account, but did not give my spoo the benefit of actually chewing the bones. 

I have gone back several times to real meat. Real food. My best luck when I can is going directly to farmers that I can see and know how they raise and feed their animals. My spoo can tell the difference between for instance CAFO beef liver, even in expensive 'raw food expensive' and raw liver from organic beef/lamb/chicken, etc. He absolutely refuses to eat CAFO liver.


----------



## Liz

kontiki said:


> Ground raw does not give them the satisfaction and teeth cleaning benefits of actually chewing the bones.


The issue here wasn't teeth cleaning.


----------



## Mufar42

Eunicyy said:


> Hello, I'm new to this space but my rescue dog (yorkie mix) has been having this exact problem! Originally I noticed her bum scooching a month ago and brought her to the vet. The vet claimed that her anal glands were impacted so he expressed them - and suggested that I put her on a prescription diet (her eyes are leaky and scratches from time to time). He said that he believed all three were related to a food allergies. Im a little hesitant to start her on that because she's not exhibiting any of the other typical allergy symptoms (incessant licking of paws or chewing of paws, and scratching to the point of breaking skin).
> 
> The worst part is my dog is very picky with her kibble and i finally found one that she will eat (Orijen Small Dogs). I've been adding more vegetables to her diet and thankfully she loves eating that.
> 
> In the past week, her bum has been leaking randomly (in 7 days she leaked 4 of those 7). and Similar to you both, she leaks only when she's sitting or relaxed on my lap. Not sure what I should do - someone recommended trying some sort of elimination diet to see what may or may not be causing this.
> 
> Thanks for all your insight. It's definitely been helpful.


I had a rescue chihuahua that had problems with his glands, unlike Peggy who only has an occasional leakage. This chihuahua would get impacted glands, happened 2x to him. If you see him scooting you should have your vet check to see if his glands af full and if so they would express then. Early on after his 1st issue I had to have them expressed about 3x a year, later the problem went mostly away. I added a tablespoon of pure pumpkin to his meals 2x a day. I also tried the glandex but its pricey and actually the pumpkin worked. Keeping his stool on the harder side causes the gland to press itself and you don't have this problem, Most dogs with softer stool are more prone. They say bone increases the fecal bulk and this also eliminates anal gland issues. Ithink this is totally different for PTP's dog Peggy. I think with her, and I'm only guessing is that she either has a very slight weak weak muscle or perhaps on a particular day she didn't quite have enough bulk to totally eliminate the emptying of the gland thus when she relaxed, out it came. Since it isn't a regular occurrence and only happens sporadically thats what I am thinking , that perhaps when it naturally emptied, it just didn't fully empty. I recently found this article interesting.








Treat Anal Gland Problems & Blockages in Dogs - Vets All Natural


Anal gland blockage, or infection, is a common problem in domestic dogs, and occasionally in cats. Find out how to treat it and prevent it here.




vetsallnatural.com.au


----------



## Pugparent

Eunicyy said:


> Ive done some research into that and have considered giving it a try
> 
> her poops are definitely not loose. Well formed all the time. Varying in size at times but she poops 2-3 times a day.


I’ve noticed that every time we give my dog Pedigree DentalStix, her leaking episodes start again. She was off them for a while, and no leakage. I’m not sure if this is coincidence, but thought I’d share in case you were giving your dogs the same product!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Pugparent said:


> I’ve noticed that every time we give my dog Pedigree DentalStix, her leaking episodes start again. She was off them for a while, and no leakage. I’m not sure if this is coincidence, but thought I’d share in case you were giving your dogs the same product!


I mentioned to you in a previous post that even a single treat with glycerin can soften poops enough to trigger an episode. So I just did a quick search of the ingredients in Dentastix and, sure enough, it’s the third ingredient! Definitely not a coincidence.


@Eunicyy, I would stay far, far away from almost all dog treats. Yak cheese chews are excellent for gnawing and have minimal ingredients. For low value treats, I use a high quality kibble (Honest Kitchen Whole Food Clusters). Otherwise I typically use bits of chicken or mozzarella, but you have to experiment to figure out what works best for your dog.

A food journal is essential for that.


----------



## Pugparent

PeggyTheParti said:


> I mentioned to you in a previous post that even a single treat with glycerin can soften poops enough to trigger an episode. So I just did a quick search of the ingredients in Dentastix and, sure enough, it’s the third ingredient! Definitely not a coincidence.
> 
> 
> @Eunicyy, I would stay far, far away from almost all dog treats. Yak cheese chews are excellent for gnawing and have minimal ingredients. For low value treats, I use a hugh quality kibble (Honest Kitchen Whole Food Clusters). Otherwise I typically use bits of chicken or mozzarella, but you have to experiment to figure out what works best for your dog.
> 
> A food journal is essential for that.


Thank you so much for these suggestions! Yes, definitely no more dental stix for her!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> I had a rescue chihuahua that had problems with his glands, unlike Peggy who only has an occasional leakage. This chihuahua would get impacted glands, happened 2x to him. If you see him scooting you should have your vet check to see if his glands af full and if so they would express then. Early on after his 1st issue I had to have them expressed about 3x a year, later the problem went mostly away. I added a tablespoon of pure pumpkin to his meals 2x a day. I also tried the glandex but its pricey and actually the pumpkin worked. Keeping his stool on the harder side causes the gland to press itself and you don't have this problem, Most dogs with softer stool are more prone. They say bone increases the fecal bulk and this also eliminates anal gland issues. Ithink this is totally different for PTP's dog Peggy. I think with her, and I'm only guessing is that she either has a very slight weak weak muscle or perhaps on a particular day she didn't quite have enough bulk to totally eliminate the emptying of the gland thus when she relaxed, out it came. Since it isn't a regular occurrence and only happens sporadically thats what I am thinking , that perhaps when it naturally emptied, it just didn't fully empty. I recently found this article interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treat Anal Gland Problems & Blockages in Dogs - Vets All Natural
> 
> 
> Anal gland blockage, or infection, is a common problem in domestic dogs, and occasionally in cats. Find out how to treat it and prevent it here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> vetsallnatural.com.au


You’re right, @Mufar42. Different issues. I’ve suspected since Peggy first came home that she could have some nerve damage from her docking. Her tail has always bothered her.


----------



## Liz

Mia's too! They docked it too short, and she's very sensitive about having the end of her tail touched, making it tricky to groom.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Liz said:


> Mia's too! They docked it too short, and she's very sensitive about having the end of her tail touched, making it tricky to groom.


That is so sad.  Peggy’s isn’t quite a nugget like ol’ Nugget Tail in the Poodle Forum banner, but it’s definitely on the short side.

We worked hard to desensitize her to having it touched—a combination of contact during play and clicker training—and I think we also got a little lucky. She’s now fine with having it stroked and brushed. It definitely still bothers her, though.


----------



## Liz

PeggyTheParti said:


> That is so sad.  Peggy’s isn’t quite a nugget like ol’ Nugget Tail in the Poodle Forum banner, but it’s definitely on the short side.


OMG, I either never noticed ol' Nugget Tail, or had completely forgotten. Ouch! A friend's spoo is docked really short like that, and Watching it bob around makes me wince.

Mia's isn't that short, either, they're just off by an inch or less, but it has bothered Mia her whole life. I wish the US would go to undocked tails....


----------



## PoodleFaves

I read through the whole thread glad I finally found others having the same problem ( but sorry you all are) because I wasn’t finding much googling.

I work from home and just over a month this horrendous odor filled my office. Gusto was just laying there sleeping on his back when his anal glands released. Since then it’s happened at least once a week. Not always when he has been sleeping, but never for a “good” reason like being scared, etc.

His stools appear good, but we have had periods of loose stools before the anal gland issue started. Right now I’m trying some different kibble, but I’m thinking I may have to go to raw or at least homemade at some point to see if that helps.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

PoodleFaves said:


> I read through the whole thread glad I finally found others having the same problem ( but sorry you all are) because I wasn’t finding much googling.
> 
> I work from home and just over a month this horrendous odor filled my office. Gusto was just laying there sleeping on his back when his anal glands released. Since then it’s happened at least once a week. Not always when he has been sleeping, but never for a “good” reason like being scared, etc.
> 
> His stools appear good, but we have had periods of loose stools before the anal gland issue started. Right now I’m trying some different kibble, but I’m thinking I may have to go to raw or at least homemade at some point to see if that helps.


I’m sorry you can relate! Isn’t it crazy how little information there is about this online? Sooooo much on impacted glands. Virtually nothing about occasional undesirable expression.

Peggy’s poops are still very well formed, but have definitely been slightly softer lately. She doesn’t have to strain at all. I’m guessing this is why we’re now also on a “weekly leak” schedule, but still only when she’s relaxing on the couch with us. So baffling, as she also regularly relaxes in bed with my husband and it’s not an issue there. And in her most relaxed place of all—her crate—it’s _never_ happened.

I was really hoping the Pet Honesty allergy chews would help, but they just gave her bad breath. Maybe I should put her back on the Glandex chews to see if that gets us back to a 3-4 week schedule.

Have you tried Glandex? It’s not specifically designed for our particular issue, but it’s supposed to firm up poops, which should at least promote regular expression outside.


----------



## Bernedoo

Hi! Following this thread. We have a 4.5 month old Bernedoodle (75% standard poodle) who has the same issue - leaking fishy/metallic smelling discharge (small amount) when relaxing or having just woken from a lengthy nap. Doesn't happen all the time and isn't as stinky as some of you are experiencing, but my nose is attuned to it, so I think I'm hyper-aware. I've never smelled it on his crate pad or bed, either.

Our issue didn't start until after his first groom where I stupidly forgot to tell them not to express his glands. This is our first puppy and first dog that needed to see the groomer, so we didn't really know what to ask for until after the fact. I assume they expressed them, and ever since then - about 2.5 weeks ago now, we've had this leaking issue.

After doing much of the same research you all have, I concluded that it was likely allergies. Doodles in general are predisposed to all kinds, so I'm not surprised if this is something we have to deal with. Since the middle of last week, we've been transitioning him to Natural Balance LID lamb and brown rice. As of yesterday all treats and chews have stopped, and he is JUST on this food. Looking back on it, his stools were regularly quite soft even though they looked well-formed, but now with the LID food, they are visibly much more firm.

I'm also sort of convinced that something happened at the groomer's but my vet says she's never seen or heard of anything like that before. He's seeing her for an appointment on Friday just to clear him of any issues like an infection in the glands, impaction, etc. (because I'm paranoid). His behaviour is 100% normal, no scooting, biting his rear, excessive licking.

Since I'm seeing our vet for this, if anything interesting comes out of it, I'll report back here.

Hope this helps!

Also @PeggyTheParti, I just checked three of the softer treats we give him and they all have vegetable glycerin as a top ingredient. Hmmmm. These are all-natural and good quality treats - we give him nothing junky, but interesting to see that ingredient there. Regardless, we've stopped all treats for now while we're on this elimination diet journey.


----------



## Bernedoo

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m sorry you can relate! Isn’t it crazy how little information there is about this online? Sooooo much on impacted glands. Virtually nothing about occasional undesirable expression.
> 
> Peggy’s poops are still very well formed, but have definitely been slightly softer lately. She doesn’t have to strain at all. I’m guessing this is why we’re now also on a “weekly leak” schedule, but still only when she’s relaxing on the couch with us. So baffling, as she also regularly relaxes in bed with my husband and it’s not an issue there. And in her most relaxed place of all—her crate—it’s _never_ happened.
> 
> I was really hoping the Pet Honesty allergy chews would help, but they just gave her bad breath. Maybe I should put her back on the Glandex chews to see if that gets us back to a 3-4 week schedule.
> 
> Have you tried Glandex? It’s not specifically designed for our particular issue, but it’s supposed to firm up poops, which should at least promote regular expression outside.


----------



## Raindrops

Misha still occasionally leaks but rarely when I express the glands often. I express every week or two when bathing. He started leaking as a puppy before I ever started expressing them. In regard to a groomer causing it, I'd say the glands were likely impacted and the groomer cleared the impaction which may make it easier for leakage especially if they were in poor condition due to impaction.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Our groomer doesn’t express glands, so I think the timing sounds like more of a coincidence, @Bernedoo. We started noticing the smell around that age, too. I interpreted it more as metallic at first, but _quickly_ tuned into the fishy component. Lol.

I’d be more concerned if your puppy was uncomfortable after his grooming appointment—licking, scooting, abruptly sitting, that sort of thing. Then I’d be worried they injured him in some way. As our groomer explained it, the expression method groomers are allowed to use (external) has a higher chance of injuring the glands than the vet’s method. But that could just be anecdotal.

You were smart to eliminate all processed treats, but I wouldn’t eliminate food rewards entirely. They’re too precious for reinforcing early training. Just keep it simple. Single ingredient, if possible. Terms like “all natural” don’t mean a whole lot when you consider all of the natural laxatives and digestive irritants out there.


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> Our groomer doesn’t express glands, so I think the timing sounds like more of a coincidence, @Bernedoo. We started noticing the smell around that age, too. I interpreted it more as metallic at first, but _quickly_ tuned into the fishy component. Lol.
> 
> I’d be more concerned if your puppy was uncomfortable after his grooming appointment—licking, scooting, abruptly sitting, that sort of thing. Then I’d be worried they injured him in some way. As our groomer explained it, the expression method groomers are allowed to use (external) has a higher chance of injuring the glands than the vet’s method. But that could just be anecdotal.
> 
> You were smart to eliminate all processed treats, but I wouldn’t eliminate food rewards entirely. They’re too precious for reinforcing early training. Just keep it simple. Single ingredient, if possible. Terms like “all natural” don’t mean a whole lot when you consider all of the natural laxatives and digestive irritants out there.


I didn't realize groomers were only allowed to use external expression. I have always used internal expression which seems quite safe. I do not feel comfortable with external expression as it seems so imprecise.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> I didn't realize groomers were only allowed to use external expression. I have always used internal expression which seems quite safe. I do not feel comfortable with external expression as it seems so imprecise.


It may vary from state to state, or even county to county. But as she explained it, internal expression—while safer—is considered a medical procedure and she could lose her license for doing it.

Sounds like you made the right call with Misha. I might give it a try soon.


----------



## For Want of Poodle

Raindrops said:


> I didn't realize groomers were only allowed to use external expression. I have always used internal expression which seems quite safe. I do not feel comfortable with external expression as it seems so imprecise.


Raindrops you are a far braver woman than me lol.


----------



## Raindrops

For Want of Poodle said:


> Raindrops you are a far braver woman than me lol.


Haha only because I really really really can't with the butt juice. It is so so bad. It might be the worst smell ever.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Lol @Raindrops. I feel the same way. Since it happens mostly when she’s on the couch with my husband, I’m considering banning _him_ from the furniture.* I could never have a no-couch dog.

*In case you happen to read this, Matt: Just kidding!


----------



## Bernedoo

PeggyTheParti said:


> Our groomer doesn’t express glands, so I think the timing sounds like more of a coincidence, @Bernedoo. We started noticing the smell around that age, too. I interpreted it more as metallic at first, but _quickly_ tuned into the fishy component. Lol.
> 
> I’d be more concerned if your puppy was uncomfortable after his grooming appointment—licking, scooting, abruptly sitting, that sort of thing. Then I’d be worried they injured him in some way. As our groomer explained it, the expression method groomers are allowed to use (external) has a higher chance of injuring the glands than the vet’s method. But that could just be anecdotal.
> 
> You were smart to eliminate all processed treats, but I wouldn’t eliminate food rewards entirely. They’re too precious for reinforcing early training. Just keep it simple. Single ingredient, if possible. Terms like “all natural” don’t mean a whole lot when you consider all of the natural laxatives and digestive irritants out there.


Thanks @Raindrops and @PeggyTheParti! I appreciate you both talking me off the ledge about the groomer damaging him in some way 😆. I'm a first-time puppy mom, so I was ready to put up a fight!

Interesting that you both noticed the smell around the same age, and that you, Raindrops, noticed it before Misha's first expression. I think there's something to be said for the glands being very full before the groomer did it, and now we're left with residual effects. It's only been two weeks (even though it feels like a lifetime) that we've been experiencing this, so I'm hoping that time and the elimination diet will help things.

We pushed our vet appointment back to later next week - I want him to be on a full week of 100% elimination diet before we see her. That just makes sense to me.

Will report back with any findings! Thanks again.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Bernedoo said:


> Thanks @Raindrops and @PeggyTheParti! I appreciate you both talking me off the ledge about the groomer damaging him in some way 😆. I'm a first-time puppy mom, so I was ready to put up a fight!
> 
> Interesting that you both noticed the smell around the same age, and that you, Raindrops, noticed it before Misha's first expression. I think there's something to be said for the glands being very full before the groomer did it, and now we're left with residual effects. It's only been two weeks (even though it feels like a lifetime) that we've been experiencing this, so I'm hoping that time and the elimination diet will help things.
> 
> We pushed our vet appointment back to later next week - I want him to be on a full week of 100% elimination diet before we see her. That just makes sense to me.
> 
> Will report back with any findings! Thanks again.


Lol! I’ve been on a similar ledge before. Poodle Forum is good at talking new puppy owners down. 

One thing I read on this topic that has stuck with me is that occasional “leaks” might not be leaks at all, that they may actually be indicative of normal function and it’s the opposite—impaction—you really want to worry about.

Since this is your first puppy, and you’re raising him during a challenging time, here’s a link to a wonderful list of resources: Pandemic Puppy Primer

Keeping him on track socially should at least prevent the anxious expression of his glands.


----------



## Osa Bear

PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


Did you ever figure it out? What you are describing fits my 10yo old English sheep dog. Found your post because she is back to leaking anal fluid when relaxed. She had GI issues as a pup. We couldn’t find food that didn’t make her sick. Loose stool. Goop in her eyes. Regular vets thought allergies and had her on massive Benadryl daily. Short of two we rushed her to the ER because she was lethargic and crashing. Emergency surgery later and a specialty team at the U of M she was diagnosed with Imflamatory bowel disorder. Like allergies but internal. We landed on Purina HA and the GI issues and eye goop cleared up. Same time she had her first leak. We learned that she has one anal gland that didn’t develop right and empties into her body. Which means when the poop presses on it, the gland is sealed vs being able to express itself. So I internally express her glands ever 7-14 days. They are full and can’t empty. Have your vet check that both glands empty outward. And other than that, buy gloves and Vaseline at Costco. There is anal surgery you can have but you risk incontinence. If you find any other articles, let me know! It’s been a long 10 years.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Osa Bear said:


> Did you ever figure it out? What you are describing fits my 10yo old English sheep dog. Found your post because she is back to leaking anal fluid when relaxed. She had GI issues as a pup. We couldn’t find food that didn’t make her sick. Loose stool. Goop in her eyes. Regular vets thought allergies and had her on massive Benadryl daily. Short of two we rushed her to the ER because she was lethargic and crashing. Emergency surgery later and a specialty team at the U of M she was diagnosed with Imflamatory bowel disorder. Like allergies but internal. We landed on Purina HA and the GI issues and eye goop cleared up. Same time she had her first leak. We learned that she has one anal gland that didn’t develop right and empties into her body. Which means when the poop presses on it, the gland is sealed vs being able to express itself. So I internally express her glands ever 7-14 days. They are full and can’t empty. Have your vet check that both glands empty outward. And other than that, buy gloves and Vaseline at Costco. There is anal surgery you can have but you risk incontinence. If you find any other articles, let me know! It’s been a long 10 years.


Oh my goodness. What a nightmare. I’m sorry.  Your girl is still leaking with regular expression?

The one time we had Peggy’s glands expressed by the vet, they weren’t even full and the fluid was normal. But there’s always the chance there’s something going on internally that would require a more through investigation to diagnose. Since Peggy has had no major health issues so far (knock on wood!!) we’ve not felt the need to dig further. I definitely don’t feel an occasional fishy smell is worth invasive surgery and the potential complications. But maybe when she’s spayed in May they can examine her more thoroughly while she’s under.


----------



## Perkris

PeggyTheParti said:


> Have you ever had Willow's checked and/or expressed by your vet?
> 
> Peggy vomits up pumpkin, so not gonna go there again. But she does enjoy green beans and other veggies. Maybe I should increase how much she's getting.
> 
> The problem with everything I've read online is it tends to focus on impacted glands rather than the opposite. She already has solid, well-formed poops, and her glands empty regularly. It's more like she's lacking muscle tone or control or something. I wonder if tail docking can cause this? But I suppose that would cause incontinence, too.


I stumbled across this conversation online. I don’t have a poodle (although I’ve had many) I have a dachshund who’s having the same leaky problem. We’ve been to the vet twice now and she says it’s not her anal glands and she has “good” anal tone. But I have to clean her up and apply diaper cream to her but multiple times a day. She has to sleep in her crate now otherwise it’s everywhere. So frustrating. Doing laundry alllll the time. If I want her with me , pads with a whole cut for her tail put in a doggy diaper. But can’t do it often because the secretions are irritating her anal skin and it get red and swollen. Help!!!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Perkris said:


> I stumbled across this conversation online. I don’t have a poodle (although I’ve had many) I have a dachshund who’s having the same leaky problem. We’ve been to the vet twice now and she says it’s not her anal glands and she has “good” anal tone. But I have to clean her up and apply diaper cream to her but multiple times a day. She has to sleep in her crate now otherwise it’s everywhere. So frustrating. Doing laundry alllll the time. If I want her with me , pads with a whole cut for her tail put in a doggy diaper. But can’t do it often because the secretions are irritating her anal skin and it get red and swollen. Help!!!


Oh dear. That sounds serious to me. Have you asked for a referral to a specialist?


----------



## Mufar42

I would seek professional help from your vet or even a 2nd vet. I have read that there is a surgery to remove the glands, when there are serious issues, but I honestly know very little about it.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> I would seek professional help from your vet or even a 2nd vet. I have read that there is a surgery to remove the glands, when there are serious issues, but I honestly know very little about it.


The surgery is quite risky, but when weighed against what @Perkris is currently dealing with, those risks may be warranted.

Hope you’ll check back in and let us know what the specialist says, @Perkris. This really does sound like a situation that requires a second opinion. In the meantime, I’d be cautious about applying creams that may exacerbate the issue, unless they’ve been specifically recommended by a vet you trust.


----------



## Mufar42

PTP..I've been reading since this thread, there is a lot of info out there. Seems biggest risk is the anesthesia and the recovery of one week preventing dog from scooting and tearing out stitches. Also read there is now laser surgery for this. So far I haven't read anything that makes it abnormally risky, what did you find? You have my curiosity peaked, because I think personally I'd go for it in a heartbeat.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> PTP..I've been reading since this thread, there is a lot of info out there. Seems biggest risk is the anesthesia and the recovery of one week preventing dog from scooting and tearing out stitches. Also read there is now laser surgery for this. So far I haven't read anything that makes it abnormally risky, what did you find? You have my curiosity peaked, because I think personally I'd go for it in a heartbeat.


It carries the risk of nerve damage and fecal incontinence, which, although a rare complication, would be a _much_ bigger issue than an occasional fishy smell.

But what @Perkris described sounds a lot more serious than just a nuisance smell. I think it would definitely be worth investigating options with a board-certified veterinary surgeon.


----------



## Teddysmom

PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.





PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


Hello, I have this exact issue with my Springer Spaniel. He is healthy, has solid poops with no digestive issues but every few weeks he’ll have leaky glands. As you know, very stinky and sometimes he leaves brown liquid on the couch (thankfully we keep a blanket on the couch). I also give him Glandex daily and it seems to work great until it doesn’t. Have not been able to narrow down what causes it. He does not have impacted glands, he never scoots, just leaks. Wonder if it is related to the docked tails. It might just be something we have to live with. I backed off on the Glandex one time but he got worse so will definitely keep him on that. Just want you to know you are not alone.


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## PeggyTheParti

Teddysmom said:


> Hello, I have this exact issue with my Springer Spaniel. He is healthy, has solid poops with no digestive issues but every few weeks he’ll have leaky glands. As you know, very stinky and sometimes he leaves brown liquid on the couch (thankfully we keep a blanket on the couch). I also give him Glandex daily and it seems to work great until it doesn’t. Have not been able to narrow down what causes it. He does not have impacted glands, he never scoots, just leaks. Wonder if it is related to the docked tails. It might just be something we have to live with. I backed off on the Glandex one time but he got worse so will definitely keep him on that. Just want you to know you are not alone.


Aw. Thanks so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. There seem to be so few accounts of this particular issue online. I’m glad we’re all finding each other here. 

Like you, I wonder about the docked tail. But then I think she’d be leaking in a wider variety of circumstances. Not sure about your springer, but Peggy generally only leaks when she’s cuddled up with us, and even then, only rarely. Maybe it’s a marking instinct? I don’t know.

We’re putting her back on the Glandex to see if that gets us back to a monthly “schedule.” At the moment it’s happening, on average, every seven days or so. The couch cover has been a lifesaver. I just wish it were a little more stylish. I’m in search of good waterproof material that I can attack to the back of a pretty throw blanket.

The one thing which bugs me about the Glandex is that it contains vegetable glycerin, which is a known stool softener. And soft stools absolutely exacerbate the issue, probably because the glands remain more full and can “spill” (ick) more easily.


----------



## Teddysmom

PeggyTheParti said:


> Aw. Thanks so much for sharing. I really appreciate it. There seem to be so few accounts of this particular issue online. I’m glad we’re all finding each other here.
> 
> Like you, I wonder about the docked tail. But then I think she’d be leaking in a wider variety of circumstances. Not sure about your springer, but Peggy generally only leaks when she’s cuddled up with us, and even then, only rarely. Maybe it’s a marking instinct? I don’t know.
> 
> We’re putting her back on the Glandex to see if that gets us back to a monthly “schedule.” At the moment it’s happening, on average, every seven days or so. The couch cover has been a lifesaver. I just wish it were a little more stylish. I’m in search of good waterproof material that I can attack to the back of a pretty throw blanket.
> 
> The one thing which bugs me about the Glandex is that it contains vegetable glycerin, which is a known stool softener. And soft stools absolutely exacerbate the issue, probably because the glands remain more full and can “spill” (ick) more easily.


Yes, Teddy only does it when he is relaxed and resting. For us, it is about every 3 weeks. I did not realize the Glandex could soften his stools. If you find something better, let me know. Could try the pumpkin I suppose. At one point when I was researching, I read that some dogs just have excess anal fluid and that is why it will occasionally leak. That actually prevents them from getting impacted. But it is definitely not pleasant. Thankfully, Teddy lets me wipe his butt with natural wipes. Doesn’t bother him at all. 😆


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Teddysmom said:


> Yes, Teddy only does it when he is relaxed and resting. For us, it is about every 3 weeks. I did not realize the Glandex could soften his stools. If you find something better, let me know. Could try the pumpkin I suppose. At one point when I was researching, I read that some dogs just have excess anal fluid and that is why it will occasionally leak. That actually prevents them from getting impacted. But it is definitely not pleasant. Thankfully, Teddy lets me wipe his butt with natural wipes. Doesn’t bother him at all. 😆


I’m guessing there are enough bulking ingredients in the Glandex to counteract the softening effects of the vegetable glycerin. Just get annoyed that it pops up in soooo many dog products. It probably causes loads of problems that owners struggle to diagnose.

And thanks for reminding me it could be so much worse. Chronic impaction and/or abscess would be so painful for our pups. This is purely a stinky nuisance.


----------



## PoodleFaves

So I’ve tried Gusto on a couple of different foods and the anal gland issue has stopped with putting him on Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach Salmon and Rice. We’ve had 1 episode and that was right after we did a long training session where he got a variety of treats and a lot of them.

i usually prefer more, ah, "premium" foods and I’ll try other foods in the future, but for now, I’m enjoying not having to smell anal glands every day.😁


----------



## PeggyTheParti

PoodleFaves said:


> So I’ve tried Gusto on a couple of different foods and the anal gland issue has stopped with putting him on Pro Plan Sensitive Stomach Salmon and Rice. We’ve had 1 episode and that was right after we did a long training session where he got a variety of treats and a lot of them.
> 
> i usually prefer more, ah, "premium" foods and I’ll try other foods in the future, but for now, I’m enjoying not having to smell anal glands every day.😁


Woo hoo! How long has it been since the last (non-treats-related) stinky episode?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

It seems treats from other owners at our play dates were increasing the frequency of Peggy’s leaks. As soon as they stopped feeding her, the weekly episodes stopped.

This confirms my suspicion that even _slightly_ softer poops can exacerbate this issue, and vegetable glycerin will absolutely soften poops. Too bad it’s in virtually every processed dog treat. I was so disappointed to learn it’s even used in one of Peggy’s very favourites: the turkey tendons they keep on the counter at our local pet food store. Oh well.

If you’re wondering if a treat is a good option for your leaky or diarrhea-prone pup, if it’s soft or shiny, you should probably pass until you can verify the ingredients.

Freeze-dried is a good alternative.


----------



## Liz

Thanks for tackling such an icky subject, PtP. Over the years I've noticed times when Mia's poop was especially soft, and while I've assumed it had something to do with treats, I was never motivated to determine the culprit. Even though this hasn't been as big of an issue for us as for others, it's still a relief to know what ingredients to avoid.


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## kontiki

Sigh, I have had simply had to nix any treats that are not single ingredient, Mom approved, with no preservatives. Strange, my spoo can do chicken jerkey of certain brands, but Not turkey jerkey at all. Dried sweet potato seems to be ok, dried organic liver seems to be ok. So, I now we have to 'just say no' to any treats unless someone can tell me what exactly they are. I hope no-one even says the word 'treat' around my Spoo!


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## PoodleFaves

PeggyTheParti said:


> Woo hoo! How long has it been since the last (non-treats-related) stinky episode?


It’s been about 2 weeks. He did fine after our training class this week. I mix a bunch of treats together so it may be one brand that caused the issue after that training session. I’ll have to pay attention when it happens again.


----------



## Raindrops

I don't feel like starting another thread so I'm just adding to this ongoing one! Misha has had one of his anal glands become increasingly annoying over the past few months. It came on very slow. This particular gland has always produced more than the other and has always had a thicker consistency. But over time it got thicker and more pus-like and he needed it emptied more and more often. The past two months have been very bad and it will fill up every few days. So I knew something was _definitely_ not right with it. I finally got him in to see the vet today and they confirmed that yes, that gland seems to be infected and the other one is fine. So he's on an antibiotic and they applied some sort of antibiotic inside of the gland. He has to go back in a week and they will likely need to reapply it. The vet said it can be an annoying issue to clear up. There doesn't seem to be any clear reason why it got infected. Clearly the anal glands exist in a very bacteria-filled environment. Misha says he's adding "weird butt stuff" to his list of reasons for not going in that building.

Anyway I figured it might be useful for anybody who notices a change in the consistency or frequency that anal glands need to be expressed.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> Misha says he's adding "weird butt stuff" to his list of reasons for not going in that building.


Sorry for the LOL, Misha. 

Hoping the antibiotics do the trick. I’ve still never expressed Peggy’s glands myself. She had it done just the one time, at the vet’s office, and all was normal. Gracie, on the other hand, had frequent discomfort back there. No fishy smell, but she’d scoot all the way down our steep driveway and leave a long streak. Classy gal. I think small dogs do tend to struggle with this stuff more.


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> Sorry for the LOL, Misha.
> 
> Hoping the antibiotics do the trick. I’ve still never expressed Peggy’s glands myself. She had it done just the one time, at the vet’s office, and all was normal. Gracie, on the other hand, had frequent discomfort back there. No fishy smell, but she’d scoot all the way down our steep driveway and leave a long streak. Classy gal. I think small dogs do tend to struggle with this stuff more.


Yes for sure. I think it is just a mismatch of size issue where the glands are not evolved properly to empty in small dogs. I'm really hoping that treatment will result in Misha going back to rarely needing them emptied. Because the other gland has never had issues like this.


----------



## kontiki

I didn't even know they had two!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

I think we might have reached Peggy’s personal record for no leaks: 4 weeks and 3 days! Someone call Guinness.


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> I think we might have reached Peggy’s personal record for no leaks: 4 weeks and 3 days! Someone call Guinness.


Wow congrats! I hope we can go back to that. I have lately just emptied them every weekly bath because I know it is likely to leak if I don't. Just the puss-y one though.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> Wow congrats! I hope we can go back to that. I have lately just emptied them every weekly bath because I know it is likely to leak if I don't. Just the *** one though.


I’m seriously wondering if I should do it before the inevitable happens. I think we’ve found at least a partial fix (avoiding vegetable glycerin, except in the Glandex), but she got treats from a friend at her playdate yesterday, so I’m sure it’s only a matter of time.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

Vegetable Glycerin is in practically every soft dog treat. How can such a common dog treat ingredient cause issue like this? Why is it used in (most) everything if is causes soft stools? You'd think they would know. Maybe that's why they say only xx treats per xx pound dog/day. Covers their butt!


----------



## PeggyTheParti

94Magna_Tom said:


> Vegetable Glycerin is in practically every soft dog treat. How can such a common dog treat ingredient cause issue like this? Why is it used in (most) everything if is causes soft stools? You'd think they would know. Maybe that's why they say only xx treats per xx pound dog/day. Covers their butt!


It’s not that surprising when you consider how many questionable ingredients are used in human food, too. Especially human junk food, which is basically what processed dog treats are.

That said, it doesn’t cause anal gland issues in all dogs. Peggy’s just seem to be particularly sensitive to the effects of softer stools.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

PeggyTheParti said:


> It’s not that surprising when you consider how many questionable ingredients are used in human food, too. Especially human junk food, which is basically what processed dog treats are.
> 
> That said, it doesn’t cause anal gland issues in all dogs. Peggy’s just seem to be particularly sensitive to the effects of softer stools.


Soft stool contributes to non-expressed (problem) glands, doesn't it?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

94Magna_Tom said:


> Soft stool contributes to non-expressed (problem) glands, doesn't it?


Correct. But some dogs are prone to hard stools, so there could be a balancing effect when they consume ingredients like glycerin. Overall diet would probably play a role, too.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

6 weeks! No fish! Happy dance.


----------



## Dechi

Wow, that’s great ! 

I haven’t asked the vet tech to empty Beckie’s glands last time we went for her cytopoint injection, so now it’s been about 6 weeks too for her. I’m hoping her new diet is helping her and this gland business is about to end. One can hope...


----------



## PeggyTheParti

I tested my vegetable glycerin hypothesis with a turkey tendon. No _obvious_ change to stool consistency (i.e. no diarrhea or mush), but a fishy episode exactly 48 hours later, after 6+ weeks of non-stinky bliss.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

PeggyTheParti said:


> I tested my vegetable glycerin hypothesis with a turkey tendon. No _obvious_ change to stool consistency (i.e. no diarrhea or mush), but a fishy episode exactly 48 hours later, after 6+ weeks of non-stinky bliss.


I guess that means you'll be wanting a glycerin free treat. I found this at Tractor Supply, which Elroy deems high value, and it doesn't have any glycerin. It's soft, a little bit moist, and breaks easily into tiny pieces.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

94Magna_Tom said:


> I guess that means you'll be wanting a glycerin free treat. I found this at Tractor Supply, which Elroy deems high value, and it doesn't have any glycerin. It's soft, a little bit moist, and breaks easily into tiny pieces.


Thank you! I’ve never seen a treat that specified no glycerin on the package.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

PeggyTheParti said:


> Thank you! I’ve never seen a treat that specified no glycerin on the package.


Not sure what happened. The 2nd picture was supposed to be the ingredients.


----------



## Bernedoo

Hi all! 

Joining back in after getting frustrated (again, like most of us who are here LOL). We had Magnus' glands emptied by our vet after holding out and trying limited ingredient EVERYTHING, pumpkin EVERYTHING, etc., to try to resolve the semi-weekly stinks since February. 

Our vet expressed two weeks ago, resulting in an, erm, fountain effect. She said she has rarely seen dogs with that much fluid. Thankfully no infection, impaction, etc. He just seems to over produce.

We're once again starting to smell that familiar scent after nothing for those two weeks, specifically when he is excited, having a good chew session on a hard Nylabone or if something else really great happens/he's had a long nap. This leads me to believe that some of it is actually within his control, and if that's the case, then I guess it is what it is.

To continue to try to rule everything else out, I'm now trying the Diggin' Your Dog powdered pumpkin food additive which only consists of pumpkin and apple pectin. We're still trying to get the amount right and so far it has increased the firmness of his stools rather than the canned pumpkin which only increased the size. Our vet said it's really the firmness that matters. It has great reviews and several of which were from people having the same gland issue - that's what sold me.

What I'm hoping someone may be able to help with is, I thought I saw on PoodleForum somewhere that somebody posted about a powdered bone supplement. I know one of the benefits to a raw diet is the consumption of bone for that really hard stool, so that is also on my list of things to try. Anyone have any ideas on a powdered bone product?

My last resort is learning how to internally express and doing it with each bath, every two weeks, but I just don't want to get into a situation where he loses muscle tone and needs help doing this forever. He's only 7 months old and I can't help but believe that there is a fix out there that isn't our involvement in this process for the rest of his life...but if it is, oh well!

As always, looking for tips, tricks, thoughts, etc. Thanks everyone


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Bernedoo said:


> Hi all!
> 
> Joining back in after getting frustrated (again, like most of us who are here LOL). We had Magnus' glands emptied by our vet after holding out and trying limited ingredient EVERYTHING, pumpkin EVERYTHING, etc., to try to resolve the semi-weekly stinks since February.
> 
> Our vet expressed two weeks ago, resulting in an, erm, fountain effect. She said she has rarely seen dogs with that much fluid. Thankfully no infection, impaction, etc. He just seems to over produce.
> 
> We're once again starting to smell that familiar scent after nothing for those two weeks, specifically when he is excited, having a good chew session on a hard Nylabone or if something else really great happens/he's had a long nap. This leads me to believe that some of it is actually within his control, and if that's the case, then I guess it is what it is.
> 
> To continue to try to rule everything else out, I'm now trying the Diggin' Your Dog powdered pumpkin food additive which only consists of pumpkin and apple pectin. We're still trying to get the amount right and so far it has increased the firmness of his stools rather than the canned pumpkin which only increased the size. Our vet said it's really the firmness that matters. It has great reviews and several of which were from people having the same gland issue - that's what sold me.
> 
> What I'm hoping someone may be able to help with is, I thought I saw on PoodleForum somewhere that somebody posted about a powdered bone supplement. I know one of the benefits to a raw diet is the consumption of bone for that really hard stool, so that is also on my list of things to try. Anyone have any ideas on a powdered bone product?
> 
> My last resort is learning how to internally express and doing it with each bath, every two weeks, but I just don't want to get into a situation where he loses muscle tone and needs help doing this forever. He's only 7 months old and I can't help but believe that there is a fix out there that isn't our involvement in this process for the rest of his life...but if it is, oh well!
> 
> As always, looking for tips, tricks, thoughts, etc. Thanks everyone


Can you tell me exactly what he eats for treats, chews, meals, etc.?


----------



## Bernedoo

PeggyTheParti said:


> Can you tell me exactly what he eats for treats, chews, meals, etc.?


Yes! He eats Muenster Milling (small family owned, super high quality) Ocean Fish with probiotics added, no additional treats (we portion his meal for training throughout the day_) other than single ingredient freeze dried sweet potato and the odd piece of romaine lettuce or broccoli here and there. Fish is the only protein in the food and sorghum is the grain, no brown rice, etc. This food has been much better for him after trying the Natural Balance LID lamb which seems frankly really cheap in comparison to the small batch stuff he's on now.

The ONLY other thing he gets (which we're now eliminating) is yak's milk chews which contain yak's milk, cow's milk and lime juice. We gave these as an alternative to bully sticks because they last so much longer and we're trying to reduce exposure to multiple proteins during this time, but I do realize that cow's milk is a protein. I was just at a loss on not being able to give a growing puppy ANYTHING delicious to chew on other than a hard Nylabone or Benebone which don't have the same allure.

As I said, he also gets the Diggin Your Dog pumpkin powder which has the two ingredients I mentioned.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Bernedoo said:


> Yes! He eats Muenster Milling (small family owned, super high quality) Ocean Fish with probiotics added, no additional treats (we portion his meal for training throughout the day_) other than single ingredient freeze dried sweet potato and the odd piece of romaine lettuce or broccoli here and there. Fish is the only protein in the food and sorghum is the grain, no brown rice, etc. This food has been much better for him after trying the Natural Balance LID lamb which seems frankly really cheap in comparison to the small batch stuff he's on now.
> 
> The ONLY other thing he gets (which we're now eliminating) is yak's milk chews which contain yak's milk, cow's milk and lime juice. We gave these as an alternative to bully sticks because they last so much longer and we're trying to reduce exposure to multiple proteins during this time, but I do realize that cow's milk is a protein. I was just at a loss on not being able to give a growing puppy ANYTHING delicious to chew on other than a hard Nylabone or Benebone which don't have the same allure.
> 
> As I said, he also gets the Diggin Your Dog pumpkin powder which has the two ingredients I mentioned.


I think I’d give Glandex chews a try. They do contain vegetable glycerin, but since he’s getting it nowhere else in his diet, I doubt it’ll be enough to soften his stools.

Peggy does fine with yak cheese, but I know every dog is different. If you’re looking for other options, Vital Essentials makes great freeze-dried treats, and Peggy really likes the salmon. You could stuff them in a Kong for a good (stinky) chew session.

I think sweet potato could be problematic. I know I can’t have much without suffering the digestive consequences. Unless you know for sure he’s got a protein allergy, I’d lean more towards raw meaty bones (taking all necessary precautions to prevent choking, salmonella, etc.). This would have the added benefit of firming up his poops.

The only reason I don’t give these to Peggy is because she has a history of resource guarding.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

We’re on day 8 since Peggy’s spay and she’s leaked FOUR TIMES (!!!) since then, _twice_ on the same day.
I’m hoping this is just due to her interrupted poop schedule. She went days without pooping after surgery, and then they were quite understandably mushy for a while. Normal response to the surgical antibiotics, stress, and carprofen pain pills. Today they’re looking more normal, but not as firm as I’d like, and apparently not firm enough to empty her glands normally.

I’m going to start her on a probiotic and cross my fingers.

We’ve not had a resource guarding episode in three months (knock on wood), so if the probiotic doesn’t work, I might consider trying again with raw meaty bones. This time around, I would give one in her pen and make no attempt to take it away or make her feel threatened.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

*It’s been 8 weeks since Peggy’s last fishy episode. *And she’s not been suffering at all from a “treats” or variety perspective. 

She gets bully sticks, yak cheese, string cheese, Honest Kitchen Whole Food Clusters (beef, grain-free), and Tylee’s chicken jerky, plus random human foods on occasion. She also gets 1-2 Glandex chews per day, which do contain glycerin, but a minimal amount relative to her overall diet.

At mealtimes she gets Weruva Paw Lickin’ chicken, and she free feeds on Farmina Ancestral Grains Chicken & Pomegranate. About half her daily calories come from the Honest Kitchen.


----------



## kontiki

PeggyTheParti said:


> It’s been _8 weeks_ since Peggy’s last fishy episode. And she’s not been suffering at all from a “treats” perspective. She gets bully sticks, yak cheese, string cheese, Honest Kitchen Whole Food Clusters (beef, grain-free), and Tylee’s chicken jerky, plus random human foods on occasion.


Great! Do you know what the final magic solution was?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

kontiki said:


> Great! Do you know what the final magic solution was?


Eliminating treats that contained glycerin had the most measurable impact. But anything that softens her stools (like her spay surgery) is likely to trigger an episode. Even the slightest softening is problematic.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

And I’m not sure there’s a solution, magic or otherwise.  Just management.


----------



## Spottytoes

Do you think some dogs produce more than others? I have no clue but in Bobby’s case I do wonder. His new food has been magic for his leaky problem. He did have one episode this week but the only the one time in almost 4 weeks, which is very good for him. This is really gross but I can actually see it spray out when he poops. I almost ended up with some on me when we were walking once as I was too close. It sprayed pretty far. The vet said that’s actually good because that means he is regularly expressing his glands. He’s the first dog that I’ve ever had this issue with.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Spottytoes said:


> Do you think some dogs produce more than others? I have no clue but in Bobby’s case I do wonder. His new food has been magic for his leaky problem. He did have one episode this week but the only the one time in almost 4 weeks, which is very good for him. This is really gross but I can actually see it spray out when he poops. I almost ended up with some on me when we were walking once as I was too close. It sprayed pretty far. The vet said that’s actually good because that means he is regularly expressing his glands. He’s the first dog that I’ve ever had this issue with.


Maybe some dogs create more. I’m not sure.

I suspect it’s anatomical with Peggy. She needs large, very firm poops to express her glands, which would explain why tummy upset or stool softening ingredients could throw things off.

I’ve occasionally seen a few oily drips while she’s pooping, which I think is what’s supposed to happen. I just never noticed it with my other dogs because I had no reason to pay such close attention. 

What still mystifies me is the context of her “leaks.” Never ever in her bed or crate or on the floor or carpet. Pretty much _only_ while lounging with us on the couch. So strange.


----------



## Deere

PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


I had a Cairn Terrier with this problem also he had allergies. Per the vets advice I tried each protein that was in his diet separately for 2-3 weeks at a time noting anal gland response. The salmon(Atlantic) cooked plus skin turned out to be too rich and was the protein that created the smelly anal gland release. The only other options were to live with it or have his anal glands removed.


PeggyTheParti said:


> This has been an ongoing part of Life With Peggy and I'm ready to find a solution.
> 
> Does anyone's poodle leak when they're relaxed? It only seems to happen when she's on the couch or bed with us, and generally it's just a strong fish smell, but sometimes she leaves a stinky spot of fluid behind. It will typically happen a couple of times a week for a few weeks, then nothing for a few weeks. Repeat, repeat.
> 
> She has excellent, firm poops. Has never had diarrhea. We do give her Glandex (both the chews and the powder), which seems to bulk her stool up a bit, but just when we start thinking it's working.....NOPE. I'm so over it.
> 
> She doesn't scoot or lick. She does often bite at the end of her tail. During a particularly bad week, we took her to the vet to have her glands checked and expressed, but they were only moderately full and the fluid was normal. It's almost like it's a GOOD thing that they leak? Because it means they're not impacted? But ugh. Not fun.
> 
> Anyone ever experience or solve this? I can't think of a solution other than keeping them 100% empty at all times, which obviously isn't realistic.


I had a Cairn Terrier that had allergies and had leaky anal glands. Per the vet I tried every protein that was in his diet separately for 2-3 weeks noting his anal gland reaction. Fish especially Salmon(Atlantic) cooked/baked or grilled plus skin was the culpert and was to rich for him to process(his stool remained firm through out the whole ordeal). The only other options available were to live with it or have the anal gland(s) removed. I do know how smelly it is and it is almost impossible to get the stain out. Good luck.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Deere said:


> I had a Cairn Terrier with this problem also he had allergies. Per the vets advice I tried each protein that was in his diet separately for 2-3 weeks at a time noting anal gland response. The salmon(Atlantic) cooked plus skin turned out to be too rich and was the protein that created the smelly anal gland release. The only other options were to live with it or have his anal glands removed.
> 
> I had a Cairn Terrier that had allergies and had leaky anal glands. Per the vet I tried every protein that was in his diet separately for 2-3 weeks noting his anal gland reaction. Fish especially Salmon(Atlantic) cooked/baked or grilled plus skin was the culpert and was to rich for him to process(his stool remained firm through out the whole ordeal). The only other options available were to live with it or have the anal gland(s) removed. I do know how smelly it is and it is almost impossible to get the stain out. Good luck.


See page 9 of this thread for where we’re at now.  A detailed food and toilet journal has been essential.

As for getting out the stains, luckily we’ve had no issue with regular fragrance-free laundry detergent. We use Arm & Hammer “Sensitive Skin.”


----------



## Spottytoes

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’ve occasionally seen a few oily drips while she’s pooping, which I think is what’s supposed to happen. I just never noticed it with my other dogs because I had no reason to pay such close attention.


So true! I have never had to pay such close attention to a dog’s rear and what it produces as I do Bobby.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Gotta laugh. Peggy had a fishy episode tonight while lounging with me in front of the TV. She seemed as shocked by it as I did.

On one hand, I kinda feel like I jinxed it. On the other...That was over 8 weeks!! Still very much deserving of celebration.

I’m going to go back through her diet log from the past few days, but I suspect this one will remain a mystery.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Oh! She ate two carrots yesterday. Oops. That definitely could’ve softened her poop a bit.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

THREE TIMES IN ONE WEEK.



Only major dietary change has been an evening bully stick for the past few weeks. But she’s also been getting a tiny tomato from our garden when my husband does his morning picking. And looking back through our notes, I see she’s been refusing her Glandex chews more often than not.

I’m tempted to address all these things at once, but that’s not very helpful for future management. So the bully sticks will go first. Sigh.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

Sorry to hear. Does she have soft stools, or just leaking for no apparent reason?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

94Magna_Tom said:


> Sorry to hear. Does she have soft stools, or just leaking for no apparent reason?


Luckily Peggy’s not prone to diarrhea (knock on wood!!) so when her poops get soft it’s generally barely noticeable. They just take a little less _effort, _if you know what I mean. So it’s very possible they’ve been getting softer and we didn’t notice.

I think the daily bully sticks are almost definitely the culprit, which really stinks (literally) as she loves them.


----------



## kontiki

I had to totally eliminate them


----------



## PeggyTheParti

kontiki said:


> I had to totally eliminate them


Did you find a good alternative? Peggy enjoys a daily chew session.


----------



## kontiki

No, I have traded playing games, like fetch etc for chew treats. Now for treats I am very careful and only use tiny bits (pea size) of good quality, grass fed if possible, cooked meats. I keep a bunch chopped up frozen in small snack bags, only about 10 per bag so they don't have a change to spoil when I thaw them.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

PeggyTheParti said:


> THREE TIMES IN ONE WEEK.
> 
> 
> 
> Only major dietary change has been an evening bully stick for the past few weeks. But she’s also been getting a tiny tomato from our garden when my husband does his morning picking. And looking back through our notes, I see she’s been refusing her Glandex chews more often than not.
> 
> I’m tempted to address all these things at once, but that’s not very helpful for future management. So the bully sticks will go first. Sigh.


The bully sticks went, and so did the leaks. Started giving them to her again this week, thinking maybe it was just a fluke...

It wasn’t just a fluke. 

Sorry, Peggy Sue. Maybe you can have one every once in a while, but not every day.


----------



## Stephanie91714

Ive been dealing with this exact issue the past few months with my poodle. I also switched her to raw and her poop improved and I thought we were getting over this and then bam she expressed while relaxing on my lap. Did you ever find a resolution?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Stephanie91714 said:


> Ive been dealing with this exact issue the past few months with my poodle. I also switched her to raw and her poop improved and I thought we were getting over this and then bam she expressed while relaxing on my lap. Did you ever find a resolution?


At this point, our resolution is really just to accept it.  As long as her glands aren’t impacted, and she’s expressing normal fluid, there’s nothing actually physically wrong, even if the timing isn’t always ideal.

Because soft stools seem to increase the frequency, and also the severity of the mess, we are diligent about avoiding known stool softeners such as glycerin, only making an exception for her daily Glandex chews. We add FortiFlora probiotics to her food at the first sign of diarrhea, and continue it for a few weeks. We are also careful to keep her confidence up, as anal gland expression can be triggered by fear. (Again, perfectly normal, albeit inconvenient.)

Peggy overall is such a healthy girl (knock on wood!) a little fishy drip every 3-5 weeks, is not a big deal, much as we like to moan when it happens. So we’re not going to severely limit her diet or anything like that. But if at any point our vet feels there is something actually wrong, we will explore the possibility of having the glands removed.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

So I said we’d just live with this unless it starts to seem like there is something actually wrong. Well, there seems to be something wrong.

Peggy’s had seven fishy episodes in the past five weeks, two of which occurred in situations that have never been a trigger before: in the backseat of the car and now this morning in her crate. She also had two separate “poop nugget” incidents, in which she obliviously dropped little poops, once while walking and once in her bed. On top of this, she’s been biting at her tail more than usual, and just generally paying more attention to whatever is going on back there.

She has a vet appointment on Monday. If she seems to be in pain before then, they want us to bring her right in. But I can press around back there with no issue. She doesn’t seem to be in pain, just uncomfortable and maybe also a little confused.

I’ve got a new food lined up, with a novel protein and single carbohydrate. I will pair it with homemade treats. But we’ve got some extended travel ahead of us. Now seems like a terrible time to mess around with her diet, especially since she otherwise seems to do so well on it. Then again, not sure how our hosts will feel about oily, fishy smears on their couch, which—unlike ours—does not have removable cushions or cushion covers.

Needless to say, we will be travelling with a waterproof blanket. 

Here’s Peggy right now, bundled up and recovering from the horror of expressing her glands in her crate:


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

Poor Peggy. Hope you feel better.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

94Magna_Tom said:


> Poor Peggy. Hope you feel better.


She says, “All good, Tom. Just a little embarrassed. My bum seems to have a mind of its own these days.”


----------



## Skylar

Poor baby. Are you expressing her glands at home? My vet showed me how to insert my finger and express the gland. Luckily I've never had to do it. Is her gland filling up inappropriately?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Skylar said:


> Poor baby. Are you expressing her glands at home? My vet showed me how to insert my finger and express the gland. Luckily I've never had to do it. Is her gland filling up inappropriately?


When it got really frequent in the past, the vet expressed them for us, but she said they weren’t full and the fluid was normal. So no, we’ve never expressed them at home, as it doesn’t seem to be related to fullness.

Maybe something’s changed, though. Or maybe there’s some inflammation. Hoping we’ll have some answers on Monday. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Asta's Mom

Hope that your vet can help. Poor Peggy. where do your travels take you? how long will you be gone?


----------



## Streetcar

I wonder if her dock somehow landed in a tiny bit in a wrong spot. Would it be worth getting that checked out? Oliver's tail tip seems a little sensitive when touched.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Asta's Mom said:


> Hope that your vet can help. Poor Peggy. where do your travels take you? how long will you be gone?


We’ll be heading to Vancouver Island.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Streetcar said:


> I wonder if her dock somehow landed in a tiny bit in a wrong spot. Would it be worth getting that checked out? Oliver's tail tip seems a little sensitive when touched.


I’ve wondered that since we first brought her home. We were able to desensitize her to having her tail and lower back touched, and the tip has never shown signs of inflammation. But docking does pose an inherent risk to the nerves and muscles. Although Peggy doesn’t show any other symptoms of hind end weakness, it’s possible something’s amiss.


----------



## Kukla the Tpoo

Sorry to hear that Peggy is again having a problem with leaky anal glands. I hope your vet is able to determine the cause.


----------



## Dechi

Oh, I’m sorry to hear about Peggy’s discomfort. It’s so stressful when our dogs have health problems and we have no idea what it is. It’s not like you haven’t been doing research on the subject for years….

I hope the vet finds whatever it is, and I hope it’s a minor problem.

Fingers crossed.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Dechi said:


> Oh, I’m sorry to hear about Peggy’s discomfort. It’s so stressful when our dogs have health problems and we have no idea what it is. It’s not like you haven’t been doing research on the subject for years….
> 
> I hope the vet finds whatever it is, and I hope it’s a minor problem.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Even after years of research, I occasionally uncover something new. And most recently it was a similar situation, described on Reddit, which was resolved completely with a change of food. Like Peggy, their dog had no other symptoms of allergies, no GI distress, etc. But eliminating chicken and eggs cleared up the “leaks” overnight.

The food they switched to is Canine Caviar. Here’s the one I’m considering:









Canine Caviar Pet Foods Inc.


The First And Only Alkaline Dog Food. A holistic diet that: Improves Cellular Regeneration (anti-aging), Reduces Tear Stains, Hot Spots and much more.




caninecaviar.com





My father-in-law is a hunter, so perhaps he could provide us with some venison for homemade treats. Usually I politely tell him no when he offers me some.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

(I’ll be honest—I truly like her, and I trust her, too, but I don’t have much faith that our vet will give us much guidance. I just need her to rule out infection or any obvious anatomical abnormalities.)


----------



## For Want of Poodle

Poor Peggy 

For travelling with her - mom recently picked up a handheld cleaner to clean our couch with. It's quite small, I wonder if you could use something like that if she has an an incident while you are away?


----------



## PeggyTheParti

For Want of Poodle said:


> Poor Peggy
> 
> For travelling with her - mom recently picked up a handheld cleaner to clean our couch with. It's quite small, I wonder if you could use something like that if she has an an incident while you are away?


Good idea. Is it a steam cleaner? If you know the name, I might be able to find it. We’ll be in Canada.


----------



## For Want of Poodle

It's a Bissell. Not sure of model - she picked it up when she saw one at Value village after visiting a friend who was raving over hers.

I believe it takes some sort of chemical which does have a scent (  ) but she seems happy with it. The one time she used it I wasn't home! 

Should have them in any Canadian Tire or Walmart, might be something you can pick up only if it happens.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

For Want of Poodle said:


> It's a Bissell. Not sure of model - she picked it up when she saw one at Value village after visiting a friend who was raving over hers.
> 
> I believe it takes some sort of chemical which does have a scent (  ) but she seems happy with it. The one time she used it I wasn't home!
> 
> Should have them in any Canadian Tire or Walmart, might be something you can pick up only if it happens.


Thank you! Definitely couldn’t handle a scent, but maybe I could just use a vinegar/water combo.


----------



## Rose n Poos

Hope you get some answers and relief for all!


----------



## For Want of Poodle

PeggyTheParti said:


> Thank you! Definitely couldn’t handle a scent, but maybe I could just use a vinegar/water combo.


It's essentially a mini carpet cleaner, so I suspect you could find some unscented carpet cleaner solution somewhere. Scent for the stuff mom bought isn't bad (we're both very allergic to most scent), but unscented is always better! Or I bet you could DIY something, maybe with oxyclean. 

Fingers crossed this is all theoretical!


----------



## Mufar42

Sorry to hear that peggy continues to have these on and off issues. I've heard about the tail docking but also heard that is more prone on dogs that have shorter docked tails, not like those of poodles. But I don't know. Since Peggy seems to have food allergies I'm more prone to think perhaps allergies could be the culprit. I know you keep notes, so I'm thing could it be food or environmental? Maybe your notes can be a help as to time of season, or if that is related at all. Renn was having ear infections. really not painful as he would let me clean his ears but he kept getting this brown gunk. I first thought it could be mites but none of the others had it. So vet visit was in order. We switched his food over to Science diet -dermcomplete. His ears have been clear since. Could just be coincidence so I am adding back some regular food to see if he starts to get goop again. The term complete is a newer formula and supposedly treats both food and environmental issues. When you go to vet you may want to ask about it. I know you have done just about everything there is from high fibre to omega 6. Wishing you luck. Maybe when your on vacation she can wear a diaper in someones home?


----------



## Dechi

@PeggyTheParti you never know, that food could help Peggy as well. I would try it too if I were you.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Mufar42 said:


> Sorry to hear that peggy continues to have these on and off issues. I've heard about the tail docking but also heard that is more prone on dogs that have shorter docked tails, not like those of poodles. But I don't know. Since Peggy seems to have food allergies I'm more prone to think perhaps allergies could be the culprit. I know you keep notes, so I'm thing could it be food or environmental? Maybe your notes can be a help as to time of season, or if that is related at all. Renn was having ear infections. really not painful as he would let me clean his ears but he kept getting this brown gunk. I first thought it could be mites but none of the others had it. So vet visit was in order. We switched his food over to Science diet -dermcomplete. His ears have been clear since. Could just be coincidence so I am adding back some regular food to see if he starts to get goop again. The term complete is a newer formula and supposedly treats both food and environmental issues. When you go to vet you may want to ask about it. I know you have done just about everything there is from high fibre to omega 6. Wishing you luck. Maybe when your on vacation she can wear a diaper in someones home?


Thank you! Everyone’s so kind to weigh in on something so icky. 

Peggy has no obvious symptoms of food allergies, but like Renn’s ears, maybe the anal glands are the only manifestation. Or maybe it’s anatomical. She’s always had big, firm poops, but the first one comes out in a bit of a funny shape, like it’s folded over at the end. My husband has no clue what I’m talking about, but I’ve noticed it since she was a puppy.


----------



## Mufar42

Could be the only indication with Renn's ears was dark brown wx coming out frequently, as it turned out there was a infection. I keep up fairly well with his ears keeping them clean and using zymox with cortisone. My vet says likely that is why he wasn't having pain as I was just able to keep them at a certain level with the home care. but he needed the ear antibiotic. Now he has been on this food for about 5 months now. I am seeing improvement, though I occasionally add a little something to get him to eat. He is a slow methodical eater, always has been from day 1, plus I have to stay in the room or he won't eat at all. He also will not take treats from strangers, lol not big on treats either. Jett on the other hand will take anything and I use a slow feeder bowl with him. He though now is slowing down. I guess after 9 months he understands food is coming everyday at least 2x with treats in between. LOL.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Peggy was a sweetheart at the vet’s office today, even when a corgi in the waiting room lunged and snarled at her, and even when the vet stuck a finger in her bum.  No infection. No inflammation. Normal fluid. Her glands weren’t even full.

Our vet suggested Peggy’s glands may just not close all the way. She didn’t think the poop nuggets were related, saw zero sign of any hind-end weakness or neurological deficits, and said Peggy absolutely does not have food allergies. She is in great health.

The vet gave us two options:

1. (We’ll start with this one.) Add some psyllium to her meals to see if we can encourage more consistent expression during bowel movements. This is unlikely to make a difference, as her “leaks” don’t seem to be linked with any sort of unusual fullness. But still worth a shot. 

Peggy does eat a fairly low fibre diet. Her Farmina is 2.9% fibre, Honest Kitchen 5%, and Weruva 0.5%. Her Glandex chews add a little, and her poops are already bulky and firm, but...worth a shot, right? My only worry is bloating. The vet told us to use unflavoured Metamucil.

2. Remove the glands. Our vet’s office has a surgeon who comes in regularly and is skilled at this particular surgery. He was actually doing one this afternoon. To my surprise, the vet said the modern method of removing the glands does not carry the old risk of incontinence. That was a relief!

Very rough estimate was $3,500-$4,500. Eek. Not high enough to be a firm nope, but not low enough to be an automatic yes. I’m also still hesitant to put Peggy under again after her bad reaction to spay surgery.


----------



## Happy'sDad

PeggyTheParti said:


> Not high enough to be a firm nope, but not low enough to be an automatic yes.


I hear you. Especially when you don't know the outcome. If it were a guaranteed fix, it would be an easier decision. Like you, the stresses of surgery would concern me most.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Happy'sDad said:


> I hear you. Especially when you don't know the outcome. If it were a guaranteed fix, it would be an easier decision. Like you, the stresses of surgery would concern me most.


It will definitely fix the leaks, as there will be no more glands to produce fluid. But...we just got an updated estimate: $5,800 - $6,200. Eek.

How much was Misha’s surgery, @Raindrops? I’m wondering if this is so high because it’s a travelling surgeon who works just occasionally out of our clinic. Really hard to justify that price for something that’s a nuisance rather than an actual pain or health issue, as it was for Misha.


----------



## Raindrops

PeggyTheParti said:


> It will definitely fix the leaks, as there will be no more glands to produce fluid. But...we just got an updated estimate: $5,800 - $6,200. Eek.
> 
> How much was Misha’s surgery, @Raindrops? I’m wondering if this is so high because it’s a travelling surgeon who works just occasionally out of our clinic. Really hard to justify that price for something that’s a nuisance rather than an actual pain or health issue, as it was for Misha.


That's definitely overpriced! Misha had his done by a specialty surgeon who said she's done 500 of these procedures without any ill effects. He needed a specialist because he reacts severely to sutures. So I consider the price I paid to be very high, but it was only $2400. I also knew somebody who got their dog's removed by a non-specialist vet they knew personally and I think they paid 700-800. I'm sure that was discounted, but I would guess the average price is between 1000-2000.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Raindrops said:


> That's definitely overpriced! Misha had his done by a specialty surgeon who said she's done 500 of these procedures without any ill effects. He needed a specialist because he reacts severely to sutures. So I consider the price I paid to be very high, but it was only $2400. I also knew somebody who got their dog's removed by a non-specialist vet they knew personally and I think they paid 700-800. I'm sure that was discounted, but I would guess the average price is between 1000-2000.


Ugghhhh. I would really like to stick with a clinic we know well, and Peggy knows, too. But that’s ridiculous. Rural life. 

If anyone knows of a veterinary surgeon in Washington state who specializes in this surgery, please let me know. Ideally within a reasonable drive of the Olympic Peninsula, so as to avoid added stress on Peggy. Seattle, Tacoma, etc.


----------



## Kukla the Tpoo

In 2017 my mpoo had his anal glands removed. The surgery was done at a veterinary specialist clinic in the SF Bay Area (an expensive part of the country). I paid $3600. Since that was the cost 5 years ago, I suspect it's much higher today. However, $5,800-6,200 seems extremely expensive!


----------



## Rose n Poos

It might be worth contacting the WSU College of Veterinary Medicine.
Surgery | Veterinary Teaching Hospital | Washington State University (wsu.edu)

Those figures sound very high, even in these times.


----------



## PeggyTheParti

It’s been 3.5 weeks since the vet emptied her not-very-full glands and we just had our first leak. Precious Peggy, she did it on the waterproof couch cover so we have no major mess to clean up at our temporary vacation residence—my parents’ condo. Thank goodness.

Peggy seems very upset about it this time. She walked around with her tail flat to her bum until I could give it a wipe. And still her ears are hanging so low. We keep telling her it’s okay, but then she sniffs her bum and gives me this look:


----------



## 94Magna_Tom

Ugh.


----------



## Happy'sDad

Poor Peggy


----------



## Dechi

Poor little thing…


----------



## Skylar

Do you think Peggy was reacting to the smell? Or was it physically bothering her? Is the area inflamed or red?

Poor you and poor Peggy


----------



## PeggyTheParti

Skylar said:


> Do you think Peggy was reacting to the smell? Or was it physically bothering her? Is the area inflamed or red?
> 
> Poor you and poor Peggy


No visible or palpable inflammation, no obvious signs of pain, and a clean bill of health (twice now!) from the vet. We suspect it’s anatomical.

After it happens, Peggy is quick to remove herself from the stinky spot on the couch, and lately she has seemed extra sensitive to any smell lingering under her tail.

The good news is she’s eager now to have me clean her up. After a puppyhood plagued by icky, sticky vaginitis, she learned to be very suspicious of wet towels approaching her nether regions.


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## PeggyTheParti

It just happened again—thankfully on a sheet and not directly on the couch. She followed me to the kitchen sink and literally turned around and presented her bum to me for cleaning.

I wasn’t planning to mess with her diet while we’re away, but I might try Metamucil as suggested by our vet (though even she was skeptical it would help).


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## Dechi

Such a clever and clean girl. Let’s hope Metamucil works. You never know.


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## Itsonlyspiff

I am very glad to find this thread. I do not have a poodle but couldn't find any info like the op. I have a rescue pitbull that is about 2 years old. I got her last October 2021 and she didn't have anal gland problems until a few months ago. It started with her looking angry at her butt when she went outside. Then it turned into butt juice on my bed. Multiple times in a few weeks. I took her to the vet and they internal expressed them. Said nothing was misaligned they felt normal one was empty one was full. A few weeks later she smelled like blood but I didn't see any. I took her in and the vet said infection. She was on antibiotics and then was fine for a few months. Then the smell again. It always happens in my bed with me. Usually while she is sound asleep. I thought weak muscles maybe. When she was spayed in December she had an infection in her uterus and almost died. She came out of surgery and was fecal incontinent for 10 days. They told me it was from the gabapentin relaxing her so much it would just leak diarrhea. They did an anal probe to her in January and said she had good muscle control. Now we call her juicy booty. She doesn't mind it. She licks it up yuck 🤮 I know when she is licking the blanket behind her butt it means something stinks. Lots of laundry. The vet told me about a procedure where they inject saline into the glands and that makes then harden and then they just go in an pluck them out. It still comes with a chance of incontinence which any is too much for me. We just changed her food from wellness to science diet perfect weight because she gained a few pounds when I got her and she is considered overweight now. That I also know could contribute to the leakage. She can not reach her actual butt hole to lick it so she licks her tail near it. She shows no allergies and doesn't scoot excessive lick or anything. Her poop wasn't as hard as I prefer so that is why we switched food. She has been on probiotocs and skin and coat supplements since I got her and I wanted to get her off of them. She also has been eating pumpkin mixed in with her food and it did make her poop harder. That has been for a few months. It also seems that when she poops she has either some poop left on her butt or she has a clear fluid on the actual hole that when I wipe sometimes it smells like anal glands and sometimes not. Also its not every time she poops. I never thought I would be sniffing a dog butt before she comes inside but it is easier if I catch it before she sits anywhere. We have everything covered with blankets and sheets and I use multiple blankets in bed but she always manages to scoot around and put her butt on the sheet. I hope this doesn't last her entire life. It does make me feel a little better to read this thread and that's why I wanted to comment just to show anyone that comes across this like I did that you are not alone. I do have some humor in the situation...I have to or I wouldn't make it through this stink..lol. we joke that she should wear a tracksuit with the words juicy booty on the butt and learn to twerk so she could make some money to put towards all these bills I have due to excessive anal leakage 😆 🤣


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## PeggyTheParti

Itsonlyspiff said:


> I am very glad to find this thread. I do not have a poodle but couldn't find any info like the op. I have a rescue pitbull that is about 2 years old. I got her last October 2021 and she didn't have anal gland problems until a few months ago. It started with her looking angry at her butt when she went outside. Then it turned into butt juice on my bed. Multiple times in a few weeks. I took her to the vet and they internal expressed them. Said nothing was misaligned they felt normal one was empty one was full. A few weeks later she smelled like blood but I didn't see any. I took her in and the vet said infection. She was on antibiotics and then was fine for a few months. Then the smell again. It always happens in my bed with me. Usually while she is sound asleep. I thought weak muscles maybe. When she was spayed in December she had an infection in her uterus and almost died. She came out of surgery and was fecal incontinent for 10 days. They told me it was from the gabapentin relaxing her so much it would just leak diarrhea. They did an anal probe to her in January and said she had good muscle control. Now we call her juicy booty. She doesn't mind it. She licks it up yuck 🤮 I know when she is licking the blanket behind her butt it means something stinks. Lots of laundry. The vet told me about a procedure where they inject saline into the glands and that makes then harden and then they just go in an pluck them out. It still comes with a chance of incontinence which any is too much for me. We just changed her food from wellness to science diet perfect weight because she gained a few pounds when I got her and she is considered overweight now. That I also know could contribute to the leakage. She can not reach her actual butt hole to lick it so she licks her tail near it. She shows no allergies and doesn't scoot excessive lick or anything. Her poop wasn't as hard as I prefer so that is why we switched food. She has been on probiotocs and skin and coat supplements since I got her and I wanted to get her off of them. She also has been eating pumpkin mixed in with her food and it did make her poop harder. That has been for a few months. It also seems that when she poops she has either some poop left on her butt or she has a clear fluid on the actual hole that when I wipe sometimes it smells like anal glands and sometimes not. Also its not every time she poops. I never thought I would be sniffing a dog butt before she comes inside but it is easier if I catch it before she sits anywhere. We have everything covered with blankets and sheets and I use multiple blankets in bed but she always manages to scoot around and put her butt on the sheet. I hope this doesn't last her entire life. It does make me feel a little better to read this thread and that's why I wanted to comment just to show anyone that comes across this like I did that you are not alone. I do have some humor in the situation...I have to or I wouldn't make it through this stink..lol. we joke that she should wear a tracksuit with the words juicy booty on the butt and learn to twerk so she could make some money to put towards all these bills I have due to excessive anal leakage 😆 🤣


Yes, you do need to keep your sense of humour! Welcome to the forum. 

It sounds like your girl may have something a little different going on. If Peggy was experiencing any infection or that level of discomfort, I would be seriously considering surgery. As it stands, we go back and forth.

Are your girl’s poops consistently firm now? If poop is sticking to her butt, I’m guessing no.

I would personally be getting her on a good, healthy diet (maybe even consulting with a holistic vet) and sticking to single-ingredient treats. Absolutely no glycerin at all. For weight management, I’ve had much better luck just keeping my dogs active through play (trick training is a favourite around here), purpose (a regular routine seems to promote overall health), and loose-leash fun walks (gentle hikes on soft ground, sniffy explorations of big box store parking lots, etc.). Regular exercise is also good for bowel health.


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## Itsonlyspiff

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yes, you do need to keep your sense of humour! Welcome to the forum.
> 
> It sounds like your girl may have something a little different going on. If Peggy was experiencing any infection or that level of discomfort, I would be seriously considering surgery. As it stands, we go back and forth.
> 
> Are your girl’s poops consistently firm now? If poop is sticking to her butt, I’m guessing no.
> 
> I would personally be getting her on a good, healthy diet (maybe even consulting with a holistic vet) and sticking to single-ingredient treats. Absolutely no glycerin at all. For weight management, I’ve had much better luck just keeping my dogs active through play (trick training is a favourite around here), purpose (a regular routine seems to promote overall health), and loose-leash fun walks (gentle hikes on soft ground, sniffy explorations of big box store parking lots, etc.). Regular exercise is also good for bowel health.



So the infection was different because at the time she had mush poop. Since I got her her poop has always been formed but not solid. She had anxiety when I got her and they said it was due to stress and give it time. That is why I started to add pumpkin. Her poop has been solid and perfect since then. The pumpkin actually firmed it up pretty well in a few days. She had no issue since then until about a month ago. The poop sticking to her butt isn't a piece of poop it is just a spot of brown in the pucker of her butt hole itself. That is where the clear fluid is also. So not actually a piece of poop just a drop of residue I guess. She just got switched to hills science diet perfect weight which was suggested by her dna testing and her vet. This is the 4th food switch since I got her about 11 months ago. As far as the exercise that is hard. She is a potato. I had her checked and she is just lazy. She doesn't like leash walks and is a puller. We have been working on it but she refuses to move after about a quarter mile. She has horrid recall so off leash isnt an option. I have hired multiple trainers and we are currently working on that as well. She gets spurts of energy but only twice a day. We do training sessions twice a day but she gets mostly mental stimulation during those. She goes out at least once week to stores with me sometimes twice. Her potty times outside are up to a half hour each time in the yard on leash snifari each time about 5 times a day. Plus she runs around with a toy for about 10 minutes several times a day. I never had such a lazy pitbull. I try to engage her in other things but she just isn't interested. I know there could be so many things causing the anal gland issue. One thing no one has every been able to tell me is that if they are leaking the fluid does that automatically mean they are full and need an expression? My understanding from reading literally days of stuff online is that it isn't always that way. I dont want to be someone that gets them over done and cause a bigger issue.


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## PeggyTheParti

Itsonlyspiff said:


> One thing no one has every been able to tell me is that if they are leaking the fluid does that automatically mean they are full and need an expression?


No dog’s anal glands should need manual expression. If they’re not emptying on their own, there’s something going on.

Peggy has never had any trouble emptying hers. They express naturally when she poops, but sometimes they express spontaneously, too. Our vet believes this could be due to an anatomical anomaly. The fluid simply “spills” out. To prevent this from ever happening, we would have to keep them empty 24/7, which isn’t realistic.


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