# Raw feeding bad for coats?



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Today at the AKC Invitational I was very surprised to here that many of breeders/handlers were against raw feeding. And that many dogs show coats have been ruined by raw feeding as it does not contain the nutrients needed to grow / maintain coats.

I currently feed raw (Stella and Cheweys dehydrated raw) and it was highly suggested to go back to a high quality kibble.

Any thoughts on this would be highly appreciated!


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Stella & Chewys is balanced. If you were to make your own raw food and failed to have a balance the coat may suffer. I worked with someone who showed collies. She said she did not feed raw because she got food from other companies at a very discounted price or even free because she shows/ breeds collies and she was representing their brand. If a breeder/ shower were to make their own food, no big company benefits, and of course they think that is bad. I would've asked why they thought it did not have proper nutrients, I doubt they have proof.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Also it is very possible that this rumor started because someone started feeding raw and was not informed that their dog may go through a detox period. This is normal and does happen especially if they were eating real crap food before. They can lose hair and have really waxy ears. The detox period shouldn't be very long but they may have went back to kibble if that happened, not allowing the detox to finish.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

If the raw diet is properly balanced, the coat will be healthy. I have unfortunatly seen the results of an improperly balanced raw diet - the pup will be crippled for life. 

For those folks unable to balance a diet, yes, a high quality kibble would be better, but, if you're balancing the diet appropriately there will be no problems with the coat or joints, etc. 

IMHO, using the dehydrated raw is the way to go. The biggest issue I see is the folks trying to go to the supermarket and purchase meat, etc and mixing their own diet with little to no idea how it needs to be balanced. 

If your dog looks and acts healthy, I'm guessing you're on the right track. THe coat is the first sign of trouble.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I think each person needs to feed what works best for them and for their dog. Some dogs cannot or should not eat raw. Other's cannot seem to tolerate anything else. But no matter what you choose to feed it needs to be balanced.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

N2Mischief said:


> I think each person needs to feed what works best for them and for their dog. Some dogs cannot or should not eat raw. Other's cannot seem to tolerate anything else. But no matter what you choose to feed it needs to be balanced.


:amen:


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Well I think people should look at just a few of the facts about raw feeding before they adopt an opinion on it based on emotion and/or anecdotal evidence: 1) an overwhelming majority of vets don't like raw feeding; 2) public health authorities won't approve raw-fed therapy dogs; 3) many show people don't like raw feeding. I don't feel I'll never raw feed, maybe one day I will when I don't have kids in the house. But it needs to be a very thoughtful, carefully researched and time-intensive process based on science; if a person is not willing or not able to do that, why not let the experts figure out the exact proportions of what dogs need and buy a 5 star kibble. I think it's self-serving to imply that people who don't believe what you believe must be in bed with a big dog food company.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have always worried that I might not get everything right and do a mixture of both. It just makes me less stressful. When I was trying to learn about raw feeding I heard so many things that opposed one another, "feed raw eggs with shell, never feed raw eggs ect" If just makes life easier to do both IMHO.


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Indiana said:


> Well I think people should look at just a few of the facts about raw feeding before they adopt an opinion on it based on emotion and/or anecdotal evidence: 1) an overwhelming majority of vets don't like raw feeding; 2) public health authorities won't approve raw-fed therapy dogs; 3) many show people don't like raw feeding. I don't feel I'll never raw feed, maybe one day I will when I don't have kids in the house. But it needs to be a very thoughtful, carefully researched and time-intensive process based on science; if a person is not willing or not able to do that, why not let the experts figure out the exact proportions of what dogs need and buy a 5 star kibble. I think it's self-serving to imply that people who don't believe what you believe must be in bed with a big dog food company.


Many vets do not get nutrition education, so they would be opposed to raw feeding or homemade diets in general- usually. They do however get tons of knowledge from Hills and Purina. Those companies happen to sponsor the little nutrition education they get. But you are right, not everyone who dislikes raw feeding is benefiting from a big food company.


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

What my breeder told me is that they feed Acana because anything higher protien (Orijen) gave the black coats a redish tinge. Jem ate acana for the first couple of months then I moved her onto Spring Meadows which is a pre-made raw food. I then went to big "Pets in The Park" event in the city and had a couple poodle people there tell me she looked like she was going to be blue.
She does have a tinge to her coat but shaves down to pure black so I assume it's sun and food.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

KristaLynn said:


> What my breeder told me is that they feed Acana because anything higher protien (Orijen) gave the black coats a redish tinge. Jem ate acana for the first couple of months then I moved her onto Spring Meadows which is a pre-made raw food. I then went to big "Pets in The Park" event in the city and had a couple poodle people there tell me she looked like she was going to be blue.
> She does have a tinge to her coat but shaves down to pure black so I assume it's sun and food.


Actually, Sunny's breeder told me pretty much the same thing. She was part of the breeder group who "tested" Orijen when it first came out. She said her dogs loved it, but yes, her black poodles turned rusty/red, and they thought it was from the protein level." She does like Acana, though, and that is Sunny's main kibble, with some premade or dehydrated raw for variety.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I had a pretty lousy experience feeding "PMR" style (prey model raw). I followed some pretty dogmatic (lol) people on this diet and basically it's raw meaty bones and organs and that's IT. "dogs don't need anything else." 
Well along with broken teeth on 2 of my 4 dogs <sigh> I also start to loose coats. My PWD has an "improper coat" which means it grows just like a border collie type coat. Anyway, her coat got dry and sparse. The bichons I had at the time (down to one now, RIP) got very wiry coat with not much undercoat (and then broken teeth!) 
The next issue I had with PMR was grass gorging. The dogs wouldn't even stop to go pee when I would let them out, They would head right to the grass and eat and eat and eat, frantically. 
So didn't work for us, and I respect what their bodies were telling me. I DO miss the raw poops tho LOL.

I'll say, looking at my dogs, they do best with a large variety of foods. Kibble as a base plus THK, raw or cooked meats, salmon, eggs, yogurt, etc. They look beautiful now.

So I guess it may be a case of "balance" (however you want to determine that depending on which dog diet guru you follow!) and individual metabolism. 
And I think, honestly, show people would know. They have their eyes/hands on their dogs constantly and are quick to notice poor coats/condition. 

Back in the day when I was showing, Eukanuba was the one that my co-breeders fed. Their dogs had TONS of gorgeous coat. I fed the "holistic" and "premix" raw foods. Mine had quite sparse coats compared to their dogs! I still can't bring myself to feed Eukanuba though.

Whoops, long reply, got off track


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I had a pretty lousy experience feeding "PMR" style (prey model raw). I followed some pretty dogmatic (lol) people on this diet and basically it's raw meaty bones and organs and that's IT. "dogs don't need anything else."
> Well along with broken teeth on 2 of my 4 dogs <sigh> I also start to loose coats. My PWD has an "improper coat" which means it grows just like a border collie type coat. Anyway, her coat got dry and sparse. The bichons I had at the time (down to one now, RIP) got very wiry coat with not much undercoat (and then broken teeth!)
> The next issue I had with PMR was grass gorging. The dogs wouldn't even stop to go pee when I would let them out, They would head right to the grass and eat and eat and eat, frantically.
> So didn't work for us, and I respect what their bodies were telling me. I DO miss the raw poops tho LOL.)



That sounds more like the BARF diet to me, which is not recommended by most raw feeders. No way in prey model would you feed just bones and organs. There should be mostly muscle meat with a little bit of bones and organs. I'm sorry you received bad direction and had this awful experience! Broken teeth was likely caused by using weight bearing bones from large animals, which is also not advised. There is so much bad information out there. I don't think I know it all, but I trust my source of information, because their information makes logical sense.


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## Gilly (Feb 18, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> ...
> The next issue I had with PMR was grass gorging. The dogs wouldn't even stop to go pee when I would let them out, They would head right to the grass and eat and eat and eat, frantically.
> So didn't work for us, and I respect what their bodies were telling me. I DO miss the raw poops tho LOL.
> 
> ...


Very interesting! I am experiencing 'grass gorging' with my tp recently after spending some time slowly moving onto raw. Also she appears to be suffering from acid stomach so with these two indicators, full raw diet is not the way forward for her I think. She is 7 yrs old, Ive had her 9 months and still working to finding the right diet for her optimum health. I agree with you, in finding the balance for the individual dog.

BTW - why do you prefer not to go to Eukanuba?


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

I've found that my SPoos coats sucked on all/mostly raw diets. My dog also done the grass goring thing twice. So I rotate dry, home-cooked plus fruits and veggies and raw foods weekly. I have great coats and good energy levels for hunting and training. I cannot recommend an all raw diet for poodles at this time.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I too feed a combination of raw(& dehydrated raw) and kibble and Molly is a hair machine!!!!! I don't think I could feed just raw....I'd be too worried about her getting the proper nutrients!!!!!!!


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## Jamie Hein (Aug 17, 2013)

Desiree said:


> I've found that my SPoos coats sucked on all/mostly raw diets. My dog also done the grass goring thing twice. So I rotate dry, home-cooked plus fruits and veggies and raw foods weekly. I have great coats and good energy levels for hunting and training. I cannot recommend an all raw diet for poodles at this time.


I'm confused at why cooked meat would be more nutritious than raw since cooking destroys the enzymes and some nutrients? It certainly doesn't add nutrients. I only have experience with Kennedy's coat on raw food and his has improved, so not to say that that raw food doesn't cause bad coats, it may be true, but the raw vs. cooked meat being better nutritiously for a dog confuses me.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I find it so odd that some have had experience with raw food causing coat issues!! When fed correctly, I've found raw fed dogs to have better quality coats, growing much quicker, and of course nails that grow quite a bit quicker as well.

I would imagine that if you're having issues on the raw diet, probably something needs to be added.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I find it so odd that some have had experience with raw food causing coat issues!! When fed correctly, I've found raw fed dogs to have better quality coats, growing much quicker, and of course nails that grow quite a bit quicker as well.
> 
> I would imagine that if you're having issues on the raw diet, probably something needs to be added.


Hmm - Interesting topic. I hesitated posting because of the amount of negative opinions about raw, but then decided that that made it more important to tell my experience. 

I have had the experience of going totally raw after my spoo came close to dying on kibble (hundreds of dollars of different kinds and almost a thousand dollars in vet bills). Anyway his coat is now the most amazing, thick, healthy one my groomer has ever seen. She has 5 poodles of her own too. My spoos coat looked pretty much like her dogs, but now that he has been on raw for almost 2 years there is no comparison. 

I have to agree that perhaps the raw diet used wasn't correct if there became health or coat problems, or maybe poor quality meat? Were the bones cooked at all? Were they weight bearing bones? The large animal weight bearing ones normally sold as pet bones can do great damage to their teeth.

In addition to totally raw meat, and raw meaty bones (not weight bearing for large animals), I do also add high quality omega 3's (because so much of the grocery meat is now overly Omega 6 because of feedlot practices). I can't afford all organic but I do make sure that at least any organs are organic. I also give him some blueberries, raspberries and other berries if we are in the woods.

His coat is amazing, as is his energy I am so sorry you had a bad experience.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

IMO coat quality improves when you increase the level/quality of protein in the diet. When I have my grooming clients which to grain free because of allergies, 6 months later the hair color, density, thickness, and growth have all improved dramatically. As hair and nails are just dead protein when the body gets all it needs for vital functions, it then goes to the coat and nails. Dogs that grow hair non stop need extra/ high quality protein to have the best coat.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Jamie Hein said:


> I'm confused at why cooked meat would be more nutritious than raw since cooking destroys the enzymes and some nutrients? It certainly doesn't add nutrients. I only have experience with Kennedy's coat on raw food and his has improved, so not to say that that raw food doesn't cause bad coats, it may be true, but the raw vs. cooked meat being better nutritiously for a dog confuses me.


I just saw something on PBS about this. They fed a snake cooked meat vs raw meat (same amounts) and measured the amount of heat produce during the digestive process. The cooked food used less energy to digest then the raw food. The thought was that cooking starts the process of breaking down the food thus making easier to digest. That says nothing about nutrients absorbed and such. But it was very interesting.

I raise and feed raw rabbits to my dogs and sometimes they eat nothing but organs and rabbit heads. Others times just meat and bones or want dog food instead. I may even a some grains back in her diet if she seems to crave them. Popcorn and some rice are her new favorite foods. I think a varied diet is best.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i feed as much local grass fed as i can. i clean out farmer's freezers of their freezer burnt meats: poultry, beef, pork, lamb and if i am lucky rabbit, organs, poultry necks and backs and feet ... i supplement with commercial raw (blue ridge beef ... their lean beef, venison with bone and green tripe).

at worst they eat the brb beef, venison and green tripe with local poultry frames, gizzards and beef and poultry organ. 

occasionally i will add in some veggie glop, but primarily they eat meat/bone/offal and i make sure they get a good variety of protein sources.

all my guys including my cat look amazing.

i did do a bit of feeding both a high quality grain free kibble and raw for a few months. i wasn't happy about it, but i was trying to cut costs as i was paying off a big vet bill. i was grossed out about how much more poo they had and how smelly it was.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I feed both. I was on a fb group that were feeding only raw or you and your dog die ! Not really, but man were they hardcore... anyway, they were always having issues... I made a comment that I fed both kibble and raw and did not have all the health issues they they all seemed to be having and got my head bit off. I am no longer part of that group...lol


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

yeah, i got my head bitten off for offering the name of a grinder sufficient to grind poultry bones.
and got a post deleted for asking about some probiotics!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Just about every thing I said got deleted...lol


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i called them zealots.


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

What would be considered a Top quality brand of kibble? There are so many. and a lot of them are grain free also. I feed Remi what the breeder fed her and that is Nutrisource buffalo. She also combined raw, but I have just kept her on kibble mixed with cooked chix, beef, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. Something diff every day I guess for variety.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

missmygirls said:


> What would be considered a Top quality brand of kibble? There are so many. and a lot of them are grain free also. I feed Remi what the breeder fed her and that is Nutrisource buffalo. She also combined raw, but I have just kept her on kibble mixed with cooked chix, beef, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. Something diff every day I guess for variety.


Best place to check brands is dogfoodadvisor .com - 5 star ratings are the best but may be too rich for some. Nutrisource is a 5 star brand and a less expensive choice than some other 5 star brands like Orijen for example.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

As Bella's inside is more important than the outside to me I've decided to keep her on raw (prepared frozen) and add coat supplements seems to be working well


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Desiree said:


> ...PBS... They fed a snake cooked meat vs raw meat (same amounts) and measured the amount of heat produce during the digestive process. The cooked food used less energy to digest then the raw food. The thought was that cooking starts the process of breaking down the food thus making easier to digest. *That says nothing about nutrients absorbed and such.*


It is frustrating to see these 'tests' that don't look at the nutrients absorbed. That is the whole point - not just how much energy a snake uses to digest it. I care more about the nutrients.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

I give Luce a raw marrow bone 1-2 times a month - or more. I just don't have the time, or energy to learn about raw feeding for her.

She is on Grain free Merrick, I bought a bag of Canyon Creek grain free - it was on sale and wanted to see if she accepted it - she loved it. I found Nutrisca (never seen it before) in my grocery store!! I checked it on Dogfoodadvisor.com, it is rated 5 Stars and less costly then Merrick or the others at the pet stores!! I'll have to start giving it to her - If she likes it, I could switch from Merrick to Nutrisca.

I also give her canned pumpkin, bananas, yogurt, and other good foods I might be eating in front of her. I think her coat is nice, I'll have to ask the groomers what they think.


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## Hicubse (Feb 14, 2014)

My daughter’s corgi had a litter of 6 puppies and weaned them all on to raw food, chicken wings, thighs and carcasses. They had no problem eating the bones , and are all fat sassy pups . Raw is the only way to go for dogs & cats


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Hicubse, raw is not the ONLY way to go. It is one way to go and many dogs do very well on it. But there are dogs and people who either don't want to deal with raw, or their dog should not have raw that feed dog food or home cooked very successfully.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I feed raw but I agree it is not the only way to go. I know if I had a spoo or two the expense would certainly be a factor. There are some high quality kibbles that are fine and some people prefer to feed cooked food. People just need to figure out what works best for them and their dog.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Hicubse, I know raw is the only way to go for my Spoo. He almost died on kibble. But some people absolutely refuse to feed raw meat, and apparently some dogs do well on kibble or cooked. So maybe we can only say "the only way to go for us!" My breeder also fed raw for several generations, and that is one thing I will look for in a breeder again.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

It is not that I refuse to feed raw. If I could, I would. Misha has microvascular dysplasia and cannot eat raw. Dr. Jean Dodds herself told me not to feed her raw. Just like kibble would have killed your dog, raw can kill mine. 

Some people have very strong feelings when it comes to raw, but they have to realize not everyone can go there. There is a person on this forum who has resorted to feeding the dreaded Science Diet to her poodle because NOTHING else works. I would NEVER fault her for that. Every one of us needs to find what works best for our dog(s).


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Desiree said:


> I just saw something on PBS about this. They fed a snake cooked meat vs raw meat (same amounts) and measured the amount of heat produce during the digestive process. The cooked food used less energy to digest then the raw food. The thought was that cooking starts the process of breaking down the food thus making easier to digest. That says nothing about nutrients absorbed and such. But it was very interesting.


My guess is that it took less energy to digest because there were less nutrients to digest. Cooking kills the enzymes for instance. No wonder they didn't mention nutrients. Or maybe they didn't think that deeply about it? Hmmm.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> It is not that I refuse to feed raw. If I could, I would. Misha has microvascular dysplasia and cannot eat raw. Dr. Jean Dodds herself told me not to feed her raw. Just like kibble would have killed your dog, raw can kill mine.
> 
> Some people have very strong feelings when it comes to raw, but they have to realize not everyone can go there. There is a person on this forum who has resorted to feeding the dreaded Science Diet to her poodle because NOTHING else works. I would NEVER fault her for that. Every one of us needs to find what works best for our dog(s).


I certainly do agree about finding what works best for our dog. By the way Misha is adorable!


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