# Is Songbird poodle breeder legit?



## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

Hi poodle lovers,
This is my first post, writing it because of frustration in puppy search. So, I need some help please. In short, I am searching for a small mini or an oversized toy poodle puppy but happy to take an adult as well. I contracted many mini poodle breeders near NY from the ACK list but most either didn't respond at all or those who had responded once, disappeared after. I was recommended to contact the Songbird Poodle breeder Nancy. I checked her site and FB page, from info I gathered the breeder seemed to be responsible for her dogs. I contacted them via FB messaging, no reply. Then I left two phone messages and followed up with e-mails but none of those were returned to me. I am talking about over a month of trying to talk to anyone from Songbird Poodles. I see new posts on FB but no one replies to messages. Anyone knows if this is some sort of scam? 
I also FB messaged to Rodell Toy poodles and they replied asking for details of what poodle I want. I replied that gender and color are not important to me, what important is health and sweet personality. NO answer after that. Do they have sick and aggressive poodles?
It's been four months of constant e-mails and messages to what I was told reputable breeders, but now replies. Now I am simply frustrated and ready to give up and go with a puppy mill puppy. 
Please give me some advice before I give in.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Songbird is a reputable breeder.


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## JJ❤cavaliers (Mar 24, 2021)

Lack of reply could be from high Covid demand.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I’m sorry you’re having trouble getting a callback. Have you tried calling the Poodle Club of America breeder referral?









PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


On this page...Breeder Referral ContactsPCA National Breeder Members Lists Breeder Referral Contacts Breeder referral West of the Mississippi: Mary OlundPhone: (415) 457-4648Send email to: [email protected] calls from 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM Pacific time Breeder referral...




poodleclubofamerica.org


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

As a puppy buyer, it’s definitely hard to stand out from the crowd right now. I sympathize. It’s especially hard when you’re reaching out to toy poodle breeders, whose dogs produce very small litters. 

You might want to consider the content of your queries. Are they short and to the point? Do you explain why specifically you’re interested in _their_ puppies? And how you’d provide one of their puppies with a fabulous home?

I know it probably feels like you’re screaming into the void right now, but I believe your patience will pay off.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I contacted Nancy twice in my search for two quality bred poodles. She is a legit breeder.

The first time was several years ago and even back then I had a hard time finding a minipoo. I believe I had sent her both an email and a voicemail. I had no response for several months. A week after I brought Babykins home I got a call from Nancy saying she had puppies and was I interested. Obviously I had my poodle so I didn’t need a puppy from her.

More recently I email her when I was looking for a puppy….. again after I had gotten Theo I received an email from her.

I did recommend her to someone in my area who got a lovely male minipoo from her and they love him so much they went back to her for a second.

From my limited experience it seems she contacts people when she thinks she has puppies and when they contact her.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I have a friend with a lovely Songbird (oversize) mini. They do rally and obedience. Our member twyla has a Rodell oversize toy.


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## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I contacted Nancy twice in my search for two quality bred poodles. She is a legit breeder.
> 
> The first time was several years ago and even back then I had a hard time finding a minipoo. I believe I had sent her both an email and a voicemail. I had no response for several months. A week after I brought Babykins home I got a call from Nancy saying she had puppies and was I interested. Obviously I had my poodle so I didn’t need a puppy from her.
> 
> ...


Thank you Skylar! So Nancy is a good breeder but not a good communicator. I will try contacting her for another month and modify my messages to her and all other breeders I am constantly bugging with my calls and e-mail. But I have a feeling I will end up buying my poodle puppy from horrible Lancaster Puppies or a pet shop. August will be 6 months of my search. I understand that breeders are busy and have tons of messages, but instead of having people hanging up in the air, it doesn't take a lot of time to post on FB or on their websites that there are no available puppies at the moment or no upcoming litters planned. Simple and respectful.


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## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> I have a friend with a lovely Songbird (oversize) mini. They do rally and obedience. Our member twyla has a Rodell oversize toy.


Hi Lily, do you know if your friend went through month of silence from Nancy's side before she got a puppy from her? I just think it is not respectful to other people to ignore them for months. Just a simple line, a short answer will suffice, "no puppies available and wait list is full". Something like that.


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## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> As a puppy buyer, it’s definitely hard to stand out from the crowd right now. I sympathize. It’s especially hard when you’re reaching out to toy poodle breeders, whose dogs produce very small litters.
> 
> You might want to consider the content of your queries. Are they short and to the point? Do you explain why specifically you’re interested in _their_ puppies? And how you’d provide one of their puppies with a fabulous home?
> 
> I know it probably feels like you’re screaming into the void right now, but I believe your patience will pay off.


Hi PeggyTheParti,
My first intro e-mail to breeders is concise since I know from my work that people in general do not read long e-mails. Although it is concise, I lays out all important points. As a start. A few breeders replied asking for details and I did. Songbird came from a recommendation, but the radio silence for 1.5 is surprising. I though if a breeder doesn't respect people, but loves dogs, still, how can a breeder give their dogs to people then? I will try another month but will move on August and do what I have to do. 
Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts with me!


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

It took me a couple weeks to get ahold of my breeder, and then she was not the best communicator, but I didn’t doubt I would end up with a puppy. (My husband did.) He left a couple messages over a week or so and tried to contact her via her website. Then I used the contact form on the website and said very succinctly ‘I am very interested in your dogs. Do you have any planned breedings this year? My husband has left several messages. Please let me know.’ I don’t know if it was just the timing of it or what, but she called that evening. Our communications were almost always at 7:30 am or 7:30 pm, so maybe try varying the time of day you’re calling, if you haven’t done that already.


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## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

Starla said:


> It took me a couple weeks to get ahold of my breeder, and then she was not the best communicator, but I didn’t doubt I would end up with a puppy. (My husband did.) He left a couple messages over a week or so and tried to contact her via her website. Then I used the contact form on the website and said very succinctly ‘I am very interested in your dogs. Do you have any planned breedings this year? My husband has left several messages. Please let me know.’ I don’t know if it was just the timing of it or what, but she called that evening. Our communications were almost always at 7:30 am or 7:30 pm, so maybe try varying the time of day you’re calling, if you haven’t done that already.


Starla, thank you so much! So, I am not the only experiencing this. Your message is uplifting. Normally, I do not to call after 9pm or too early in the morning, all my calls are around noon and around 5pm. I will switch to 7:30s


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## MarCee (Jun 12, 2021)

Newport said:


> I’m sorry you’re having trouble getting a callback. Have you tried calling the Poodle Club of America breeder referral?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi! Yes, I contacted breeders in close proximity to NY from the breeder referral. I also stopped a few people on a street who had healthy looking and well behaved minipoos to asked about their breeders. This is how Nancy's name came up. I did an enormous amount of research and still keep harassing poodle owners when I see a poodle I like 
I must say, there is such a difference in poodle appearance that came from pet shops or internet sites and reputable breeders. This is why I am still trying.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MarCee said:


> Hi Lily, do you know if your friend went through month of silence from Nancy's side before she got a puppy from her? I just think it is not respectful to other people to ignore them for months. Just a simple line, a short answer will suffice, "no puppies available and wait list is full". Something like that.


My friend's Songbird girl is about Lily's age (12 years old) so aside from not knowing what her dealings were like I doubt anything that happened 12 years ago necessarily says much about today's circumstances.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

MarCee said:


> Thank you Skylar! So Nancy is a good breeder but not a good communicator. I will try contacting her for another month and modify my messages to her and all other breeders I am constantly bugging with my calls and e-mail. But I have a feeling I will end up buying my poodle puppy from horrible Lancaster Puppies or a pet shop. August will be 6 months of my search. I understand that breeders are busy and have tons of messages, but instead of having people hanging up in the air, it doesn't take a lot of time to post on FB or on their websites that there are no available puppies at the moment or no upcoming litters planned. Simple and respectful.


Both Babykins and my new puppy Theo's breeders were poor communicators too - not just Nancy. 

Breeders are people - and there's no standard or set way for them to interact with people looking to buy a dog. Theo's breeder told me she had a huge list of names, but when she calls them, people have changed their mind, they got another puppy, switched breeds, moved and can't have a dog or already got puppy elsewhere. I think some just hold on to names and contact information and start to contact them when they think they have puppies.

When I got Theo, I was originally working with another minipoo breeder who was best friends with someone I knew who breeds and shows standards in conformation. We talked quite a bit - she had two females she was planning to breed and I would get a puppy from either. First dog never came into heat. Second dog came into heat but because of Covid she was having sperm shipped by mail for the breeding instead of traveling several states over. This was when there were problems with the mail system and the sperm arrived too late. Here was the potential for have maybe 8-10 puppies and in the end there were none. She also explained her process - she had an ultrasound done early when she thought the dog is pregnant to see if indeed the dog is - just because you see them mate, doesn't mean you end up with puppies. The she does an Xray later to determine how many puppies and if there are problems that may require a c-section etc. With the xray she has a better idea of how many puppies. But it's not until they are born and it takes several days to make sure they are thriving (some might be born dead or die a few days later even with excellent loving care) when she would know who many puppies she has to match with potential buyers. You can see this takes weeks to months of unknowns and it's quite late in the process that a breeder knows they have puppies to sell. If they contacted people early on - by the time they have puppies to sell, most of those people would have moved on and wouldn't be interested in buying. I can understand they can spend a lot of time talking to people that never buy a puppy from them. If you have another job which many do, you may not have time for all this socializing - or you may not have the temperament for it. Plus quality breeders have several dogs to take care of and are busy training their newest dogs for conformation while spending many weekends at dog shows showing their dogs. They are busy people.

I mention this because we often don't look at the situation from the breeder's point of view. It's frustrating for those of us looking to purchase a quality bred puppy. 

When that breeder knew she wasn't going to have puppies she passed me to her friend who also had two dogs that she was planning to be bred. Breeders when they aren't competing against each other in the ring for titles, usually are good friends who discuss their breeding plans, have them visit to help evaluate which puppies to keep to show - and share all kinds of information. They often plan to meet up at dog shows on a regular basis. When you go to a dog show it's a lot of hanging around and chatting waiting for your couple of minutes in the ring to compete so you really get to know each other. They know who is planning to bred and can suggest other breeders to contact. This is how I got my puppy.

My breeder has a website she doesn't update and a facebook she never visits. Her website was hacked during the time I was waiting (porn and foul language) to see if she had a puppy for me - she had to pay to have it fixed. She's also older and I doubt computer savvy.

Theo - from this second breeder. The second breeder had sent me a photo of the puppies from her first breeding - but those dogs all wear spoken for - I was put on a waiting list for her second planned breeding. However one of the people never showed up to pick up the last puppy - that's how I got my Theo. I could have waited for the second dog to be bred, but the timing was perfect for Theo to come home. If this puppy had been picked up by the original people, and if her second dog ended up with no puppy for me .... then I would have been passed onto another breeder.

It's frustrating and some people seem to have an easier time. I will warn you - easy gratification of getting your puppy quickly from a horrible Lancaster Puppies or a pet shop may end up costing you lots in both money for vet bills, surgery and pain to a puppy that should never be bred if a breeder was careful of who to mate, and heartache for you. There is no guarantee any puppy will be 100% healthy, but the health checks done by quality breeders will put the odds in your favor. A poorly bred dog by cruel puppy mills is much more iffy. I hate the idea of encouraging these people to keep breeding by paying them for a puppy. 

I wish there was an easier way - I myself was frustrated for several months not hearing back from everyone I contacted yet with both my dogs it all of a sudden happened quickly. 

BTW about 1/8 breeders that I contacted eventually contacted me when they thought they would have puppies - after I had my dogs. So some that you are not hearing from are holding onto your name to contact when they a puppy

(((HUGS)))


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I understand wanting a puppy or dog desperately.

If I knew the risks,
have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance,
knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because the Lancaster style (from questionable sources and breeders), pet store (from questionable sources and breeders), puppyspot, etc (from questionable sources and breeders) are unlikely to do health or temperament testing, likely to treat their dogs as livestock sold for profit, and are very unlikely to stand behind their pup and new family thru the pups life,
I might proceed.
But
I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and above, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Breeders are absolutely swamped right now. My only suggestion is to try and find lesser known breeders - a good way to do so is to look at the breeders who are more active on Facebook and who they are commenting on. I found my girl who was from a new breeder's first litter by seeing something shared about her by her mentor, a more well-known breeder.

My dog's breeder (spoo) is on her third litter. She doesn't believe in waitlists but for this last litter she has had _These puppies are all sold_ on all of her a
facebook posts about them.

I wonder if asking any breeders you hear back from (if you even get a nope, none anytime soon message) if they have any breeders they recommend might have pups?

Morally I couldn't buy a puppy mill pup. Even BYBs, basically 'i had two cute dogs and bred them', though far from my favourite, are a better bet than a mill pup. Remember that a lot of a dog's characteristics and early imprinting come from the mother. You want a happy, healthy, confident mother in a home environment to teach puppies to be happy, like people, and be confident in a home environment, not a stressed, fearful mother.


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## JJ❤cavaliers (Mar 24, 2021)

Very well said For Want of Poodle, Skylar and Rose n Poos.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Skylar has done a great job explaining common experiences with finding a purebred dog. It requires patience and commitment to get through it. I’m in a period where I am not looking for a dog but keeping stumbling upon opportunities to get one. These windows of opportunity often appear to be very short, within hours the puppy has a home. I hope the stars align the next time I’m puppy shopping, but I plan for a 6 month to 2 year wait. Violet was >6 months from pitching the idea to my husband and coming home with a puppy. With the impact of Covid I would expect a longer search/wait.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

if you're in ny have you tried light 'n lively on staten island? black and white minis is what i understand they breed.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

As indicated, Songbird is legit, and well respected. My Gracie has several Songbird dogs in her pedigree (attached). Gracie, age 2 1/2, is from Light n Lively in Staten Island, and I can’t say enough about how wonderful she is. Shaping up to be a good agility dog, competing in Excellent in AKC and Level 5 in CPE. Not bad for starting in the midst of a pandemic! She has a wonderful temperamen, is fearless, and so loveable. A consummate lapdog. She’s energetic for sure, but I wanted and expected that. Also very healthy, no issues so far, not a fussy eater, she is everything I wanTed and more.

The pandemic has affected everyone and breeders are swamped with requests, while trying to still title dogs with all the COVID restrictions. Don‘t settle….it is worth the wait for a well-bred poodle.

Pics of my Gracie, she has a mismark and can’t compete in conformation but I wanted her for agility, and of course a pet. She didn’t disappoint!


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## Songbird Miniatures (8 mo ago)

Hello Songbird Poodles here. Imagine my surprise when I happen to google my kennel name and find an inquiry asking if I was legit? I’d say yes 
You need to understand that in June 2021 (mid Covid pandemic) reputable breeders getting 15-20+ inquiries per DAY! Many of us don’t have that many pups available in a year. I understand someone really wanting a dog but if I responded to all those inquiries I’d have no time for my actual job or family. So please don’t make assumptions. I wish you the best and hope you and yours are well.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF!

We are always happy when a breeder joins to speak for themselves. As you go on thru the thread, you'll see that your reputation as a quality, legit breeder is upheld .

We get a lot of folks joining who are only just learning about how to research breeders, so this opening query isn't uncommon. We do our best to help these members with their specific questions and what to look for - and avoid - in breeders.

A big misconception for folks new to all this is understanding that breeding, at its best, is not a business, not a livelihood, not a retail set up. Poodles are not a commodity, they're a calling. 

It's people passionate about poodles and some lucky few of us get to share in their hard work. 

Hope you drop by occasionally. We really like getting to know the breeders.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, @Songbird Miniatures! The original poster has not been back since starting this thread, but I do hope they log back in at some point and see your reply.

Regardless, it’s a good reminder for all potential poodle owners. Thanks for popping in and sharing your perspective.


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