# Everything was perfect, until I saw the health certificates



## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Hey everyone,
I'm trying to make the best decision on the mini poo I am gonna get over the summer. 
I found a breeder, passed all my requirements with flying colors! The litter was the color I wanted, born at the right time. The dogs had an amazing temperament. Everything was going well. 
But then I asked for the health records.
The Dams (she has two litters to the same sire at the same time) have hips that are Good and Fair. The Sire has hips that are Good. The eye exams were all normal.
Looking at OFA, the siblings (including half) of the Dams range from Good, Fair, to having Mild hip dysplasia. The Sire has siblings (only half) that range from Good to Excellent.
Overall glossing over each page, I would say there easily a majority of "goods", 6-8 "fairs" and only 3 or so "excellents" when I compare between the siblings of the parents.
Is this bad? Is this normal? Is excellent hard to get anyways? I just don't want to dedicate myself to a puppy when there was a clue to potential health issues.


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## sunnyday (Mar 12, 2015)

The idea behind health testing isn't that you eliminate non-Excellent dogs from the gene pool. That would seriously cramp the gene pool! But you do want to be *improving* hip health, so breeding Fair to Good is probably a very decent choice. Hip health is also polygenic, and there are environmental factors, and heck, even the way the x-rays are taken can affect the results, so just the tests alone aren't enough to completely give you the picture.

In a breed like Miniature poodles where they are so light that hip health doesn't strongly affect their wellbeing, I think I'd be okay with a breeding program that mostly produced Good . But if you trust your breeder, you should be able to raise these concerns with them too and see what they were thinking! After all, they did the test -- surely they intended to use the information in their breeding decision some way.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree very much with everything sunnyday said and, yes, excellent hip ratings are a very small proportion. I was told about 20-30%.


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## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Thanks for the tips. It definitely makes me feel better to know that "excellent" is not that common.

I also didn't know that the poodle's light frame would influence the incidence of hip disease, but in retrospect, it makes perfect sense.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Of more concern in minis than hips is knees -- minis are suspectible to patellar luxation. (Our mini boy, Beau, for example, has issues.) But as far as I am aware there's no way to test for this other than having a vet actually lay hands on the dog, and I'm not sure how old the pup should be for the evaluation to be valid.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

In Toys you don't evaluate knees until they are over a year, and you are correct, it is just done by Vet exam.


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## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Im a bit new at this so I apologize if this is a novice question, but one of the parents had an "elbow" health certificate. Is this the same as the "knee" of the dog? I figured knees/patellar would refer to the hind legs and elbows be the front. My cavalier has patellar dislocations that he has learned to pop back in on his own (he's really good at it now).


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

maelee said:


> Im a bit new at this so I apologize if this is a novice question, but one of the parents had an "elbow" health certificate. Is this the same as the "knee" of the dog? I figured knees/patellar would refer to the hind legs and elbows be the front. My cavalier has patellar dislocations that he has learned to pop back in on his own (he's really good at it now).


No, the elbow and the knee are different. The elbow is, well, the elbow and on the front legs.  The knee or patella is on the back legs.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

@maelee 

Could you please share a name of the breeder? Or other breeders of minis that you like?

I am looking for a mini breeder. Color doesn't matter. Would really appreciate your advice. 

BTW, I was born with hip dysplasia myself. Although, I am not an athlete, I live a perfectly normal life.


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## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Because of the sensitivity of the health information, I'm not gonna post the breeder's name here. But I will send you a PM of the research I have done.


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## Singin' The Blues (Aug 9, 2014)

I, too, am looking for a blue mini poodle - well, debating between a standard and a mini. Already have this beautiful red standard, so thinking more about a mini. Anyway, I have been researching many breeders and the genetic testing that is done. I also agree that the hips aren't such an issue with minis, BUT, more important I would look at the Legg-Calve-Perthes testing AND the OptiGEN testing. LCP can be very painful and debilitating, and you would hate to have a dog go blind if it develops PRA. I have a Pomeranian that has PRA; sad to see her tripping over her food bowl and bumping into things. (Don't get me wrong, little Cricket is one of the happiest dogs I have ever had!) So I would consider those tests to be a bit more important. But, as others have said, this is only my opinion.


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