# Re visiting spaying age



## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Hi all,
I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
I'm currently researching the best age to spay our puppy. Our vet has recommended the common six month age but many people have said wait until after the first season. Ideally we would prefer not to let her get to her first heat but wouldn't want to do anything detrimental to her health for the sake of our convenience.
I'm wondering if anyone has actually had a poodle suffer with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?
A lot of my research is showing that the benefits of having the operation at 6 months outweigh the risks. Due to the reduction in risks of mamarian and ovarian cancer. 
Research, more so proof of theories does seem to be limited. Could anyone point me in the right direction for more research?
Thanks very much!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Except for people who allow their dogs to roam in the neighborhood or countryside, there are sound reasons for avoiding an early spay. This one is the best:

Before You Do Something Permanent, Know About Growth Plates

followed by this part of this article: 7C. Incontinence after dog spaying surgery.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

There really isn’t that high of a chance for cancer... A lot of the shelter and general dog websites try to scare people by saying that the risk is oh-so-high, and fudge the statistics to their point of view. Yes, there is always a chance. But it’s highly unlikely for it to happen to a 1 year old, or even 2 year old dog. The benefits outweigh the risk in this case, and as Vita pointed out, spaying early can actually lead to some bad consequences.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What are the dates and sources of your research?
This is a recent, small individual breed sampling. but a years long study of dogs thru UCDavis vet clinic shows these results:



http://vipoodle.org/wp-content/themes/vip/pdf/research/HartUCDavisPoodles+Report+7-15-16.pdf



the full study:








Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for 35 Breeds of Dogs: Associated Joint Disorders, Cancers, and Urinary Incontinence


Neutering (including spaying) of male and female dogs in the first year after birth has become routine in the U.S. and much of Europe, but recent research reveals that for some dog breeds, neutering may be associated with increased risks of debilitating joint disorders and some cancers...




www.frontiersin.org







robbiewatson said:


> with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?


The growth plate problem isn't a continued growing, it's removing some of the hormones needed to fuel all body systems growth and maturation, including growth plates, before they close..

Think of it this way...Would you remove the uterus and ovaries of a 10-13 year old human? It sounds exaggerated, but unless there's a compelling medical reason to do so, both the dog and the human do better if they can mature without losing important to growth hormones..

There is an option however not many vets may be comfortable with it. That would be removing only the uterus and leaving the ovaries. No bleeding, hormones remain (including "changes" associated with being in heat), but no possibility of pregnancy or stump pyometra, if all of the uterus is completely removed.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Vita said:


> Except for people who allow their dogs to roam in the neighborhood or countryside, there are sound reasons for avoiding an early spay. This one is the best:
> 
> Before You Do Something Permanent, Know About Growth Plates
> 
> followed by this part of this article: 7C. Incontinence after dog spaying surgery.


Thanks for that, I have already read the first one. The article on incontinence was interesting. I must admit it didn't seem to warn against holding off spaying due to potential incontinence?


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> What are the dates and sources of your research?
> This is a recent, small individual breed sampling. but a years long study of dogs thru UCDavis vet clinic shows these results:
> 
> 
> ...


That looks great thanks, I'll have to read the study later as it looks like a long one haha. 
As far as leaving the ovaries I have not done enough research to comment but I listened to a podcast yesterday that advises against it. 'The dog health and happiness podcast' on Spotify if you have it!


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

FloofyPoodle said:


> There really isn’t that high of a chance for cancer... A lot of the shelter and general dog websites try to scare people by saying that the risk is oh-so-high, and fudge the statistics to their point of view. Yes, there is always a chance. But it’s highly unlikely for it to happen to a 1 year old, or even 2 year old dog. The benefits outweigh the risk in this case, and as Vita pointed out, spaying early can actually lead to some bad consequences.


I think the cancer statistics was a correlation of unspayed bitches developing cancer in their later years.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> odcast yesterday that advises against it. 'The dog health and happiness podcast' on Spotify if you have it!


I don't so I poked around the internet to see what fragments I could find. If I landed on the right podcast descriptive page
What is Spaying a Dog? What the Vet Says ⋆ Bella & Duke Raw Food

I find that the expert is Dr Brendan Clarke, President of the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society. I must assume that he is well qualified and well versed on the subjects discussed in the podcasts, but I think I'd feel better hearing from a vet specializing in reproductive medicine. If I could hear the statements in context, that could change my feeling there. 
I next find this on the descriptive page: (This is where I must admit a skepticism of homeopathic medicine in general. I don't dismiss it outright, medicine is as much art and intuition as science, but I'll always look to hard science first. I also couldn't find a way to bring up a search box to look for the referred to info on the various spaying procedures.)

*What is spaying a dog? The 3 types of spaying*
Dr. Clarke discusses 3 different types of spaying. You may refer to the British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons website at www.bahvs.com to read more about these procedures and to find a listing of vets who are qualified to do them. Just remember that it is very important to discuss with your own vet concerning the right procedure for your dog.


*A classic spay* is a midline incision about halfway between the umbilicus and the pubis. The size of the incision will depend on the expertise and experience of the vet doing the operation. The classic spay removes everything from above the ovaries to the cervix.
*An ovarian sparing spay *modifies the classic procedure to leave behind one of the ovaries. This helps to retain sufficient hormones to allow for the maturity of the skeletal system and prevent runaway TSH, which can stimulate cancer cells. Ovary-Sparing Spay - Parsemus Foundation
*A laparoscopic spay*, also known as a keyhole spay, creates three ports incised into the abdomen to remove either only the ovaries or one ovary and the uterus. The aim of laparoscopic surgery is to reduce incision size and discomfort from stretching ligaments and other pain-inducing factors in the process of doing the operation.
The #2 link goes to this site 








Hormone-Sparing Sterilization - Parsemus Foundation


Hormone-sparing sterilization methods for dogs, like hysterectomy for females and vasectomy for males, are ways to sterilize pets without the negative impacts from hormone loss.




www.parsemus.org




where only a quick glance seems to feel it is a positive option. 

From this much, I have to conclude that I landed on the wrong podcast page.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> The growth plate problem isn't a continued growing, it's removing some of the hormones needed to fuel all body systems growth and maturation, including growth plates, before they close..


I need to clarify this statement. If de-sexed prior to physical maturity, with regulatory hormones gone, the growth plates will continue to build bone longer than they should. 

The cause of the problem is the removal of the source of the regulatory hormones before they have done their work. The result is a dog with longer bones than if the plates had closed normally. 

They'll look leggier than the dogs with normally closed plates.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I don't so I poked around the internet to see what fragments I could find. If I landed on the right podcast descriptive page
> What is Spaying a Dog? What the Vet Says ⋆ Bella & Duke Raw Food
> 
> I find that the expert is Dr Brendan Clarke, President of the Raw Feeding Veterinary Society. I must assume that he is well qualified and well versed on the subjects discussed in the podcasts, but I think I'd feel better hearing from a vet specializing in reproductive medicine. If I could hear the statements in context, that could change my feeling there.
> ...


That's not the one I listened to but I've added it to the list so it's a good find either way! 








Podcast: Everything You Need to Know About Spaying a Bitch | Bella & Duke


In this episode of Podcast , Everything You Need to Know About Spaying a Bitch. For more details visit our page




www.bellaandduke.com




This is the one I listened to, I was skeptical at first but the vet he interviewed was very down to earth and had years of experience so worth a listen if you're interested. It's frustrating how spread out the information is.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I need to clarify this statement. If de-sexed prior to physical maturity, with regulatory hormones gone, the growth plates will continue to build bone longer than they should.
> 
> The cause of the problem is the removal of the source of the regulatory hormones before they have done their work. The result is a dog with longer bones than if the plates had closed normally.
> 
> They'll look leggier than the dogs with normally closed plates.


That makes sense. So is it a certainty that this happens and is it damaging to the bitch if it does?


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> What are the dates and sources of your research?
> This is a recent, small individual breed sampling. but a years long study of dogs thru UCDavis vet clinic shows these results:
> 
> 
> ...


I had a read of the study and it seems that they concluded female standards can be spayed at the 6 month point with relative safety.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The maturity age for standards is 18-24 months. In the last three years and some that I've been looking at this topic I've never seen a study that stated 6 months is a safe age to spay a standard girl.
The UCDavis study suggests no younger than one year for improving odds for one set of conditions and two years for even better odds.

I'll say that for my own dog, I would not be taking advice from a vet on a podcast, unless that vet is a published researcher or certified in the reproductive field.

The vet they use for each of these podcasts seems to be the same one and I've found nothing indicating that he has qualifications in either.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> That makes sense. So is it a certainty that this happens and is it damaging to the bitch if it does?


Is it a certainty that the removal of the ovaries will remove the hormones associated with them? 
Yes
Is it a certainty that this will be damaging?
No

The removal of the source of hormones (too soon - prior to having time to do their job in the still maturing body) 
can affect many body systems. Growth pattern may be affected in the short term and endocrine diseases, cancers, and possibly more in the longer term. 

I need to look at why the two papers I linked seem to draw different conclusions. They are drawn from the same study.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I think this is something each dog owner should chose themselves. I agonized for months, rereading studies etc. 

I got the impression at my vet that they wanted me to spay her, not because they were particularly worried about her health, but they were worried i would have a change of heart and produce doodles. When i said - nope, NO puppies, one puppy is more than enough work, rhey stopped pressuring about an early spay. 

I chose to spay Annie at 18 months. She hadnt had her first heat at that point. Her breeder required i wait until after 12 months. Seeing how much extra growing and shape changing she experienced between 6 mo and 12 mo/18 mo, i was glad to wait. 

One comment i have seen is that the cancers a late spay are protective against are typically more deadly than those an early spay are protective against. Osteosarcoma killed my last dog quickly and painfully, and is a cancer of the bone a late spay is supposed to protect against. Allegedly (i am not a vet!) Mammary cancer is not as deadly and easier to treat. The other comment i saw was that the risk of mammary cancer increases after each heat - i looked at the risk after one heat, and it was pretty minimal, but wouldnt have been willing to let her have two. Interestingly, when i looked at the stats, the rates quoted by my vet were significantly higher than the recent research findings. 

The other thing i have noticed, hanging out in the local dog park watching dogs run is that, especially for males, but also females, i can usually guess if an adult dog was altered after 1 year or not. The later altered dogs tend to have better, freer movement while running, and be less inclined to limping/hip dysplasia and pain. I especially notice this in labs and giant breed dogs. I have seem some comments that later altering is protective against ACL tears and other injuries, and i believe that based on the dogs i have watched. Based on what i have seen, i would want to alter a male at 2 years.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Is it a certainty that the removal of the ovaries will remove the hormones associated with them?
> Yes
> Is it a certainty that this will be damaging?
> No
> ...


I think they were looking at different health effects. The poodle specific one I'm sure looked at Addison's.

All sorts of diseases and orthopedic issues are correlated to early spay/neuter. I believe stats in mammary cancer are usually quoted in an extremely misleading way. I believe the chance increase for waiting for first or second heat is really very small. I would wait for one or two heats depending on age of first heat. For mental and physical development.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I think this is something each dog owner should chose themselves. I agonized for months, rereading studies etc.
> 
> I got the impression at my vet that they wanted me to spay her, not because they were particularly worried about her health, but they were worried i would have a change of heart and produce doodles. When i said - nope, NO puppies, one puppy is more than enough work, rhey stopped pressuring about an early spay.
> 
> ...


Yes I can also tell this and it's a big reason I advocate late neuter. Males seem to get more muscle development and have better rear drive and a more powerful stride. Females seem to have a much more fluid and graceful movement that still exudes energy. Part is muscle development and part is bone I think. Because the leg bones stop growing at different times. So neutering before growth is complete will result in mismatched bones. This increases strain which increases chance of CCL tear.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I'll add or emphasize that in an early spay/neuter before physical maturity is complete, the dog's legs will be longer - but their overall bone density is _thinner_.

You mentioned concerns that never spayed females are more likely to get cancer. Most quoted on the Internet are results from this original study done in Mexico and published in 2015, titled:
_Epidemiological Study of Mammary Tumors in Female Dogs Diagnosed during the Period 2002-2012: A Growing Animal Health Problem_

The odds are still quite low if spayed after the first heat but before the second.

"...In Veterinary medicine, mammary tumors represent the most frequently diagnosed neoplasm in intact female dogs, and 50% of these are malignant [1]. A study focusing on the incidence of canine mammary tumors found tumors in approximately 0.05% of females that were spayed before their first heat cycle. This figure increased to 8% or 26% when the animals were spayed after their first or second heat, respectively. However, if the animals were spayed later, the risk of developing malignant tumors (MN) was the same as for an intact bitch [2]..."

It strikes me as a gamble on what any owner would choose: 

You could spay before her first heat, using as a guide when the puppy's mother, aunts or grandmother had their first heat. The outcome is a taller poodle with thinner bone mass, and any other associated problems and benefits as described here. One benefit would be extremely low odds (0.5%) of ever getting a mammary tumor or reproductive cancer.

Or you could wait until a few months after her first heat. Her bones will be stronger, and she'll have other benefits from waiting until her body is closer to full adult stage, but her odds are 8% that she'll get mammary tumors or cancer when she's 9 to 12 years old. That's still 92% odds that she won't.

I guess the first thing I would do is try to find out when her mother and any close maternal relatives had their first heat; this will give you a clue when your puppy will have hers. Hopefully after 14+ which I've read here on PF is sort of benchmark. After that, it's consider all available info, flip a coin or go with your gut. Good luck!


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Vita said:


> I'll add or emphasize that in an early spay/neuter before physical maturity is complete, the dog's legs will be longer - but their overall bone density is _thinner_.
> 
> You mentioned concerns that never spayed females are more likely to get cancer. Most quoted on the Internet are results from this original study done in Mexico and published in 2015, titled:
> _Epidemiological Study of Mammary Tumors in Female Dogs Diagnosed during the Period 2002-2012: A Growing Animal Health Problem_
> ...


That's definitely worth finding out, I'll contact the breeder tomorrow. I thought it was closer the 8 -12 months for the first heat.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy had her first heat at 8.5 months (easy peasy), and her second one almost exactly six months later (much more challenging). We're now trying to decide if we should spay in November, before her third heat, or wait until she's two, which is what some people have recommended to us.

Our vet has been pushing us to spay her since she was four months, but I'm so glad we didn't. Her snuggly personality emerged with her first heat.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

A quick note...With the current studies leaning away from early de-sexing and towards waiting til near or full physical maturity, many of us have found that our vets are stuck in the old mind frame.
We show them the studies and/or stand our ground for what we believe will give our dogs their best chance for a long, healthy life after looking at current findings.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Vita said:


> I'll add or emphasize that in an early spay/neuter before physical maturity is complete, the dog's legs will be longer - but their overall bone density is _thinner_.
> 
> You mentioned concerns that never spayed females are more likely to get cancer. Most quoted on the Internet are results from this original study done in Mexico and published in 2015, titled:
> _Epidemiological Study of Mammary Tumors in Female Dogs Diagnosed during the Period 2002-2012: A Growing Animal Health Problem_
> ...


Vita, this is great info, but I would like to offer a correction on the source. That 2015 paper is merely citing a much older paper from 1969 that looked at a very small sample of less than 100 dogs with mammary cancer. And the data was not obtained the way you would think. They didn't take a cohort of dogs and look at which ones developed mammary cancer the way a current study would. Instead, they looked at a group of dogs that had mammary cancer, and then looked at how many of those dogs were neutered at various ages or intact. They used a chi squared test to get their data which is extremely oldschool. I don't think this study is up to today's standards. I have serious doubts about the validity of the findings. I will keep looking for a more current study. Everywhere seems to just cite this old one! I find it kind of crazy.

Here it is:
Schneider Dorn & Taylor, 1969


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Based on what I've seen here and linked articles, we'll have Happy spayed sometime between the 1 and 2 year mark - probably closer to 2. I think there's lots to be said for allowing our dogs to fully mature before removing the sex hormone. Thank you to all the smart folks here...


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> Vita, this is great info, but I would like to offer a correction on the source. That 2015 paper is merely citing a much older paper from 1969 that looked at a very small sample of less than 100 dogs with mammary cancer. And the data was not obtained the way you would think. They didn't take a cohort of dogs and look at which ones developed mammary cancer the way a current study would. Instead, they looked at a group of dogs that had mammary cancer, and then looked at how many of those dogs were neutered at various ages or intact. They used a chi squared test to get their data which is extremely oldschool. I don't think this study is up to today's standards. I have serious doubts about the validity of the findings. I will keep looking for a more current study. Everywhere seems to just cite this old one! I find it kind of crazy.
> 
> Here it is:
> Schneider Dorn & Taylor, 1969


Thank you, but I'm wondering that if this is true, the study was very misleading. 
It says:

_"Epidemiological studies enable us to analyze disease behavior, define risk factors and establish fundamental prognostic criteria, with the purpose of studying different types of diseases. The aim of this study was to determine the epidemiological characteristics of canine mammary tumors diagnosed during the period 2002-2012. The study was based on a retrospective study consisting of *1,917 biopsies* of intact dogs that presented mammary gland lesions."_

I thought the study meant to be of 1,917 dogs during that 2002-12 time period. 😀 It does have a lot of footnotes including the small study from 1969 you mentioned. 

There were also a lot of graphs, and as the title of the study suggested, they found an increase in mammary tumors and cancer during that ten year time period. I wondered then if this had anything to do with environmental issues in the area where they examined these deceased dogs or increased technology to better identify cancer during that ten year period. 

I'd like to see a more current study from nationwide vets. Seems do-able if enough can be found to go along with this.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Vita said:


> Thank you, but I'm wondering that if this is true, the study was very misleading.
> It says:
> 
> _"Epidemiological studies enable us to analyze disease behavior, define risk factors and establish fundamental prognostic criteria, with the purpose of studying different types of diseases. The aim of this study was to determine the epidemiological characteristics of canine mammary tumors diagnosed during the period 2002-2012. The study was based on a retrospective study consisting of *1,917 biopsies* of intact dogs that presented mammary gland lesions."_
> ...


So I took a closer look at what the 2015 study is reporting.

From Methods: "In every case study, the information about age, sex, breed and hormonal status was obtained. None of the dogs were spayed before the third heat. In fact, most of the animals were spayed at the time of the mastectomy. "

This study isn't looking at the effect of spaying at all. They cite the 1969 study multiple times in the introduction and discussion, but this is just to provide background info supporting why their study is important. Every incidence where they mention the 0.5/0.08/0.26 rates have a citation to the 1969 paper.

The 1969 paper is truly very outdated to be cited as much as it is.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> ...This study isn't looking at the effect of spaying at all. They cite the 1969 study multiple times in the introduction and discussion, but this is just to provide background info supporting why their study is important. Every incidence where they mention the 0.5/0.08/0.26 rates have a citation to the 1969 paper. The 1969 paper is truly very outdated to be cited as much as it is.


(Deep sigh.) Thank you Ranidrops. It sounds like we need a brand new study to see if the other(s) would be duplicated or turn up new data showing it's better or worse to spay. Politically that would be a hot potato if it negatively affects the income of vets, like rabies shots vs. rabies titers.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Vita said:


> (Deep sigh.) Thank you Ranidrops. It sounds like we need a brand new study to see if the other(s) would be duplicated or turn up new data showing it's better or worse to spay. Politically that would be a hot potato if it negatively affects the income of vets, like rabies shots vs. rabies titers.


I'm still looking in case there is some data out there. Maybe one of the big cohort studies looked at it. Just seems odd there isn't something more recent. Makes me very frustrated.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

No rush 😀 I'm watching the debates but will also search later or tomorrow. I wonder about European studies? They have a very different mindset about desexing dogs and from what I've heard don't do this nearly as much as Americans.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> A quick note...With the current studies leaning away from early de-sexing and towards waiting til near or full physical maturity, many of us have found that our vets are stuck in the old mind frame.
> We show them the studies and/or stand our ground for what we believe will give our dogs their best chance for a long, healthy life after looking at current findings.


If there are any links to the current studies that show this please throw the links in! As for the ones I've read here particularly the study across several breeds there's not a great deal that advises against spaying at 6 months onwards.... Unless I've missed something, which is also quite possible haha.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I listened to this podcast. (2018) She refers to no long term studies done over 10-12-14 years. There now have been, the UCDavis study. The preliminary study does suggest waiting to 1 year for females to reduce risk of Addisons and 2 years to reduce risk of lymphoma. 
The larger UCDavis study also above only mentioned joint disorders and unspecified cancers. 

What there does not seem to be is any disagreement that allowing the dog to develop to maturity before de-sexing to allow the "balance of hormones" to do their proper job is the best course. 

At around 6 minutes she states that early neuter is "atrocious" especially for larger breeds. She mentions prior to the US popularizing early neutering, they (vets) were trained to wait til the growth plates were closed and that more than just the medical side should be looked at. "All" their developments are affected (by the early spay).
Around 10 minutes she refers to the ovary sparing option and she has "slight concerns" because she feels more long term studies need to be done. 
Around 12:15 minutes she mentions her own 15m old lab still unspayed. 
Around 15m she states "do not spay before first heat" "do not spay before fully toilet trained"
Around 19m she states to take extra care of any dog spayed early, to monitor potential issues.
Around 22m she states to wait as long as possible to spay/neuter
She keeps referring to latest studies but doesn't name them 









Podcast: Everything You Need to Know About Spaying a Bitch | Bella & Duke


In this episode of Podcast , Everything You Need to Know About Spaying a Bitch. For more details visit our page




www.bellaandduke.com





This field of study, the effects of spay/neuter is still relatively recent, so there simply aren't that many published yet. 

I'll add as I find info.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Please do that would be great! The 3 month spay is strange, I hadn't heard of it until starting to research the 6 month option. Not sure if there are any benefits to it?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> I listened to this podcast. (2018) She refers to no long term studies done over 10-12-14 years. There now have been, the UCDavis study. The preliminary study does suggest waiting to 1 year for females to reduce risk of Addisons and 2 years to reduce risk of lymphoma.
> The larger UCDavis study also above only mentioned joint disorders and unspecified cancers.
> 
> What there does not seem to be is any disagreement that allowing the dog to develop to maturity before de-sexing to allow the "balance of hormones" to do their proper job is the best course.
> ...



Thanks, Rose! I added it here since it's on YouTube:
"*Spaying a Bitch. Should You and If So, When? - Podcast 15*"






Dr. McGrandles is a Surgical Vet and Clinical Director of Glenbrae Veterinary Care, which she founded 30 years ago in 1990. This is in the UK. She has three clinics which do conventional and holistic animal care. I thought she was on point and very knowledgeable.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> Please do that would be great! The 3 month spay is strange, I hadn't heard of it until starting to research the 6 month option. Not sure if there are any benefits to it?





Rose n Poos said:


> she states that early neuter is "atrocious" especially for larger breeds.


?????
How did you get to there from the information given in the podcast, or anything that has been written in this post?
There are no benefits to any dog by spaying early.
According to your own source de-sexing should not be done before growth plates close, and for a female, certainly never before a first heat.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

3 month spay is popular in shelters where they worry about pet overpopulation. The benefit to it is - no chance of the dog having puppies, which is a societal benefit, not an individual dog



http://vipoodle.org/wp-content/themes/vip/pdf/research/HartUCDavisPoodles%2BReport%2B7-15-16.pdf



Standard poodles
"
For females, delaying spaying females until they are at least a year old seems to avoid increasing the risk of Addison’s Disease, and waiting until 2 years avoids the possible increased risk of lymphoma. Delaying spaying does not appear to increase the risk of mammary cancer, and even leaving a female intact raises the risk to only 4 percent." Basically - they found no benefits to a 6 mo spay (usually quoted the mammary cancer benefit) at all! Addisons is a particularly nasty thing to deal with, and quite common in poodles.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> ?????
> How did you get to there from the information given in the podcast, or anything that has been written in this post?
> There are no benefits to any dog by spaying early.
> According to your own source de-sexing should not be done before growth plates close, and for a female, certainly never before a first heat.


I'm lost? Where does it say in my comment I agree with spaying at 3 months? Like you said I would not take the advice of one podcast I'm looking for a collection of studies to advise people in a similar situation to us.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> 3 month spay is popular in shelters where they worry about pet overpopulation. The benefit to it is - no chance of the dog having puppies, which is a societal benefit, not an individual dog
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a counterpoint, lymphoma was quoted to be a modest and non significant risk before 1 year. Addison's becomes a risk when spaying before 6 months. I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative because I have no where near enough knowledge to have an opinion yet but this study seems as unsure as I am.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

To put it another way - what ADVANTAGES do you see to a 6 mo spay? I will agree spaying in general poses advantages over non spaying (neutering is a bit less clear) but i havent found any references other than the mammary cancer risk, which is reported as pretty low even in intact standards (4% vs. the 20-25% risk reported for other breeds). 

Heres another interesting summary, which links to the relevant studies at the end.









Your Questions about the Joint Standards of Practice


An IAABC Foundation Publication




fall2018.iaabcjournal.org





ACL rupture, not controlled for age, but assume 6 months for most, as that is the most common ag of spay.
https://www.ors.org/Transactions/50/1311.pdf


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## vandog (Mar 30, 2019)

We are going to get my spoo spayed at 2.5 years based on recommendations from our vet. It was something that we talked about, got his opinion (which was to wait), and did a bunch of research.

He offers the option of doing an X-ray to verify that the growth plates are closed prior to the spay/neuter.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> To put it another way - what ADVANTAGES do you see to a 6 mo spay? I will agree spaying in general poses advantages over non spaying (neutering is a bit less clear) but i havent found any references other than the mammary cancer risk, which is reported as pretty low even in intact standards (4% vs. the 20-25% risk reported for other breeds).
> 
> Heres another interesting summary, which links to the relevant studies at the end.
> 
> ...


After researching I can't see any reason to rush a spay at six months. I do agree that the benefits of getting it done that early don't appear to be that great. However waiting for the first heat does not seem to offer a huge amount of benefits either. Based solely on my limited research and what is in this thread. None of the studies show a great increase in risk spaying around the 1 year mark. At least that's how I'm leaning today, it could change tomorrow haha!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> The 3 month spay is strange, I hadn't heard of it until starting to research the 6 month option. Not sure if there are any benefits to it?





robbiewatson said:


> I'm lost? Where does it say in my comment I agree with spaying at 3 months? Like you said I would not take the advice of one podcast I'm looking for a collection of studies to advise people in a similar situation to us.


I was puzzled as to why you were asking about benefits to a spay at 3 months when I thought there was enough information presented to indicate that it wasn't beneficial to the dog in any way to do an early spay.

I'm not going to have the time to do the searches in the immediate future after all so here's where and how and I do my searches:

Where
Google
Google Scholar

I take medical information only from trusted medical sites.
I take study information only from teaching universities, genetic labs, accredited sources.
I look at the date the study was published. I look at older sources they cite to build a sort of timeline of learning.
I look at the tangents that come up in the course of the search and do the same process there.
I build a web of information so I can see a sort of map of the whole of what I find. That's the hardest part to describe to others.

I will look at opinion articles and papers and then review their sources. I keep drilling til I find the original source/s for the opinion. If their source is not noted, I look for quoted phrases or other names to do a search on and see where else that comes up.

How
I start with a simple search term and add or subtract modifiers for each search
(risks of) (effects of) (early) spay standard poodle (for orthopedic conditions) (hip dysplasia) (CCL) (growth plates) (etc)
Ditto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(for endocrinology conditions) (Addisons) (Diabetes) (Cushings) (etc)
Ditto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(for cancers) (lymphoma) (mammary) (etc)
Ditto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(behavior) (etc)

Here's the links I've remembered to save since I started looking at this topic before neutering my mini boys at just over 1 year old, which is considered mature growth for the variety.

(Right click functions not working for some reason, can't cut/copy/paste. I'll post this for now and see if I can't get them in later. Must go bathe and groom my two now  )


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> I was puzzled as to why you were asking about benefits to a spay at 3 months when I thought there was enough information presented to indicate that it wasn't beneficial to the dog in any way to do an early spay.
> 
> I'm not going to have the time to do the searches in the immediate future after all so here's where and how and I do my searches:
> 
> ...


Excellent post RnP. I've been working through a review in my spare time since I probably have access to some stuff through my university that others may not. But I encourage following your advice.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I was puzzled as to why you were asking about benefits to a spay at 3 months when I thought there was enough information presented to indicate that it wasn't beneficial to the dog in any way to do an early spay.
> 
> I'm not going to have the time to do the searches in the immediate future after all so here's where and how and I do my searches:
> 
> ...


Ah I see, it was more of a shocked reaction to the early spay rather than a genuine question. I think the tone was lost through typing haha. Thanks very much that will come in handy! Good luck with the grooming, ours had her second groom today!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

You're asking to see studies so I'm going to do a dump of studies here. I always prefer to go straight to the data rather than rely on others to interpret it, but there's the downside that it does require some scientific literacy so for some it is easier to hear the interpretations from other sources. I'm not including the very recent UC Davis studies as there's enough discussion of them in other threads. These are not poodle specific studies but I think they are still useful.

Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
This is on golden retrievers. For females, it shows sharp increase in CCL tear and one of the three cancer types when neutered early. The other two cancer types actually crease for late neuters. For golden retrievers it is recommended to keep them intact (or use a sterilization technique that doesn't alter hormones) but I think the cancer risks may be breed specific in this case. The CCL risks, however, do not seem to be breed specific based on other studies.

Body Conformation, Diet, and Risk of Breast Cancer in Pet Dogs: A Case-Control Study
This is a bit of an older study from 1991. It's similar to the 1969 study we talked about previously in that it looks at 150 dogs diagnosed with mammary cancer and 150 dogs without mammary cancer. But I think the statistics in it are a bit better if still not ideal. They're reporting odds ratios for different spay ages. This means they're looking at relative risk for each cohort. They're saying if we say the risk for intact females is 1.0, then relatively, bitches spayed at <1 yr have a risk of 0.01. Bitches spayed at 1-2.5 yrs have a relative risk of 0.11. Bitches spayed at 2.5-5 years had a relative risk of 0.3. So the way to interpret this is that bitches spayed at 2.5-5 years had 1/3 the risk that intact dogs do and those spayed at 1-2.5 years had 11% the risk that intact dogs do. This study does _not_ say what the actual risk for intact dogs is. But, if it were, say, 25% (probably not this high in reality), then what it's saying is that a dog spayed at 1-2.5 years would have a risk of only 2.7%. So my point here is that the study supports that waiting for after the first or second heat is still not going to increase risk that much. The risk is still going to be quite low. This study is in stark contrast to the 1969 study (which I abhor) that greatly inflated risk.

Neutering of German Shepherd Dogs: associated joint disorders, cancers and urinary incontinence
This is a fairly large study of German Shepherds. I will discuss only the females and give my general takeaway. Looks like big increases (double the risk) in hip dysplasia for females neutered <12 months. Massive increase (7+ times the risk) for CCL tear. For mammary cancer, percent of females spayed at 0-6 mo was 0%, 7-12 mo was 1.1%, 1-2 years was 2.7%, 2-8 years was 4.9%. For urinary incontinence, percent of females spayed at 0-6 mo was 4.6%, 7-12 mo was 7.2%, 1-2 years was 2.8%, 2-8 years was 1%. Though it's a different breed, this study supports a low risk of mammary cancer.

Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers
This study builds on the first one I cited about golden retrievers. So I'm just going to mention the data on labs for females. Bitches spayed <1 year had double the risk of having a joint disorder (hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, or CCL tear). In regard to cancer (not mammary), there is a moderate increase in risk for bitches spayed between 2-8 years, but otherwise nothing significant. But I do think cancers are often breed specific.

There are plenty of studies documenting increased risk of obesity with spay, but I don't think this is a big concern for a responsible owner that adjust caloric intake given their knowledge of a decrease in metabolism after spay.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> You're asking to see studies so I'm going to do a dump of studies here. I always prefer to go straight to the data rather than rely on others to interpret it, but there's the downside that it does require some scientific literacy so for some it is easier to hear the interpretations from other sources. I'm not including the very recent UC Davis studies as there's enough discussion of them in other threads. These are not poodle specific studies but I think they are still useful.
> 
> Neutering Dogs: Effects on Joint Disorders and Cancers in Golden Retrievers
> This is on golden retrievers. For females, it shows sharp increase in CCL tear and one of the three cancer types when neutered early. The other two cancer types actually crease for late neuters. For golden retrievers it is recommended to keep them intact (or use a sterilization technique that doesn't alter hormones) but I think the cancer risks may be breed specific in this case. The CCL risks, however, do not seem to be breed specific based on other studies.
> ...


That's great thanks! Out of interest how would you decide whether these studies were relevant in poodles? Would it be looking at how common the diseases are across the board?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> Would it be looking at how common the diseases are across the board?











Breed Statistics | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


View genetic disease statistics for your dog or cat breed. The OFA offers DNA testing, free educational resources and access to canine and feline research.




www.ofa.org






https://secure.ofa.org/regSums/POODLE.pdf




The links I promised earlier below. This is not everything I've reviewed and not all of these are studies. These are just the links I remembered to save. A few are from material in this thread. Most are from my search when deciding when to neuter my boys and from the threads on this topic that I've participated in. As I mentioned earlier, there aren't studies on this topic coming out frequently or regularly. I'm always trying to find the most current information to add to my collection.

I haven't refreshed on the GR study to suggest what is specifically relevant to poodles but the UCDavis prelim and the 32+3 breed study defines what they were tracking. The three findings are related as part of the eventually larger study.
As I noted in my Search examples bones and joints are at risk, cancers are a risk, endocrine system is at risk. I don't remember if any studies have looked at the cardio, pulmonary, GI, cognition.









A Statistical Analysis of Risk Factors and Biological Behavior in Canine Mammary Tumors: A Multicenter Study


Canine mammary tumors (CMTs) represent a serious issue in worldwide veterinary practice and several risk factors are variably implicated in the biology of CMTs. The present study examines the relationship between risk factors and histological diagnosis of a large CMT dataset from three academic...




www.mdpi.com












Reexamining the early spay-neuter paradigm in dogs-dvm360


Over the past decade several other untoward health events related to juvenile spay/neuter surgery have come to light, including cancer and behavioral problems. Do other benefits of early spaying and neutering outweigh these risks?



www.dvm360.com












Hormone-Sparing Sterilization - Parsemus Foundation


Hormone-sparing sterilization methods for dogs, like hysterectomy for females and vasectomy for males, are ways to sterilize pets without the negative impacts from hormone loss.




www.parsemus.org









Spaying and neutering


Spaying and neutering are important for reducing pet overpopulation. If you decide to spay or neuter your pet, you have options.




www.avma.org












Alternatives to traditional spay and neuter – evolving best practices in dog sterilization


Standard spay and neuter surgery can have negative impacts on a dog’s health. Take a look at some of the alternative options.




ivcjournal.com









Risk Factors in Small Animal Anesthesia


There is no totally safe anaesthesia. It is therefore important to understand what factors can be life-threatening in order to reduce veterinary anaesthesia risks.




www.dispomed.com












Behavioural risks in female dogs with minimal lifetime exposure to gonadal hormones


Spaying of female dogs is a widespread practice, performed primarily for population control. While the consequences of early spaying for health are still being debated, the consequences for behaviour are believed to be negligible. The current study focused ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov












When Should You Neuter Your Dog to Avoid Health Risks?


UC Davis researchers find that a dog's risk of developing certain cancers and joint disorders if neutered within the first year of life varies greatly depending on the breed.




www.ucdavis.edu




The above study started with the Golden Retrievers and then expanded eventually to the UCDavis preliminary study linked above and to the 32 breed plus the 3 poodle varieties








Health Risks Associated with Spay/Neuter in Dogs - Dogs Naturally


If you're thinking about spaying or neutering your dog, it's important to weigh all of the long-term risks and benefits. Here's what studies say about both.




www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com









Dr. Sophia Yin's Profile and History


Dr. Yin was a veterinarian, animal behaviorist, author, and founder of Low Stress Handling®. Her “pet-friendly” techniques for animal handling and behavior modification, many of which she developed herself through the scientific method of research and rigorous testing, are shaping the new standard o




drsophiayin.com












Countering the Effects of Spay


If your dog has already been spayed, there are some things you can do to help her live the healthiest and happiest life possible. The best chance you have to keep your dog healthy is to assess and …




healthyandhappydog.com









Health Related Links - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org





I just did a Google search for "1969 spay neuter study" since it was referred to as a "landmark study" and this is the result:


1969 spay neuter study - Google Search



At least 2 of these links contain information from multiple studies, stretching back some years and up to the UCDavis comparison of GR's and Labs.

There's no evidence that an early spay is medically beneficial for the dog. There is evidence that waiting past first heat at a minimum and waiting even longer til growth plates close is medically beneficial.

------------------------

Regarding the comment from the Dr. McGrandles about the US being responsible for that sea change in desexing age, without going back thru everything I've saved on the various and relevant factors, I'm very sadly agreeing that that seems extremely likely.
This isn't an actual timeline, more a sequence of events as to how this likely came to be.

After WWII, many veterans returned to their primarily Midwest farms, idled for years, crops lost and needing a new cash crop.
It was no less than the USDA that suggested to them that puppies could be a new cash crop.
By the 1960's and up to the 1990's corporate owned puppy mills/farms had production ramped to the point that millions of dogs were turned into shelters and many euthanized yearly to deal with the overpopulation.
Part of the solution was to start de-sexing puppies at a very young age, to deal with overpopulation. This was not done for any actual health benefit to the individual dog.
This practice eventually spread but the tide is turning again to look first to the health of the individual dog.

"Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better." Maya Angelou


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

robbiewatson said:


> That's great thanks! Out of interest how would you decide whether these studies were relevant in poodles? Would it be looking at how common the diseases are across the board?


Yes I do think cancer and immune disease risks are likely to have breed influence. But the issues dealing with physical growth should be much less breed specific and more to do with similarity in size and structure. So orthopedic issues I would expect to affect spoos the same as the other large breeds in these studies. There are also studies dealing with psychological effects of early spay but maybe I'll dig those up tomorrow.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Yes I do think cancer and immune disease risks are likely to have breed influence. But the issues dealing with physical growth should be much less breed specific and more to do with similarity in size and structure. So orthopedic issues I would expect to affect spoos the same as the other large breeds in these studies. There are also studies dealing with psychological effects of early spay but maybe I'll dig those up tomorrow.


That makes sense! That would be interesting. I do wonder if making a female go through a heat without being able to find a mate is stressful for them. Particularly if they are alone whilst owners are at work.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

That's a good question. I doubt it.
Let us know what you find out


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

robbiewatson said:


> That makes sense! That would be interesting. I do wonder if making a female go through a heat without being able to find a mate is stressful for them. Particularly if they are alone whilst owners are at work.


My guess is probably not. The first heat especially since they are still puppies and not mentally mature. Maybe a female that has been bred in the past would be more frustrated. I went through a first heat with a dog and she didn't seem to think about breeding at all during it.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

That's good to know as it looks like we'll be going down this route after speaking to her breeder today and all of the information here! I'll keep having a look into it though, if nothing else it's interesting!


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## cate&clair (Aug 7, 2017)

robbiewatson said:


> Hi all,
> I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
> .
> Research, more so proof of theories does seem to be limited. Could anyone point me in the right direction for more research?
> Thanks very much!


The best research and advice on spay/neuter is available to you by phone (or in person) with your trusted vet and your breeder. Listen to them. They will be able to cut through the volume of (sometimes suspect ) research and data for you, and advise you based on real experience and knowledge. 
Your vet and your breeder are more reliable sources than anything you can get online, including here.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cate&clair said:


> The best research and advice on spay/neuter is available to you by phone (or in person) with your trusted vet and your breeder. Listen to them. They will be able to cut through the volume of (sometimes suspect ) research and data for you, and advise you based on real experience and knowledge.
> Your vet and your breeder are more reliable sources than anything you can get online, including here.


While this is generally my advice, too, spay is a tricky subject. You will find a lot of disagreement even among vets. 

Our vet was pushing to spay Peggy at four months old! She is very rescue-oriented.

Our breeder's vet, on the other hand, said to wait until after her first birthday.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> While this is generally my advice, too, spay is a tricky subject. You will find a lot of disagreement even among vets.
> 
> Our vet was pushing to spay Peggy at four months old! She is very rescue-oriented.
> 
> Our breeder's vet, on the other hand, said to wait until after her first birthday.


Yes, vets disagree heavily on this because they have different motives. Vets do not necessarily recommend decisions based on what research suggests is best for the health of an animal. In addition, vets are often not up to date with the latest research. Believing vets always know best is a bit idealistic. A vet that seeks to reduce the chance of a dog breeding as much as possible will recommend neutering at 4-6 months regardless of whether this is in the dog's best interest. But a vet that works with dogs more as individuals will discuss options with a client and decide what is best given the owner's lifestyle and the dog's behavior. My dog's breeder had it in his contract that he was not allowed to be neutered until after 12 months. But she is in favor of him staying intact if possible. Other breeders are less willing to trust their puppy buyers with intact dogs and may require neutering before a certain age.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

This has been a very interesting read. My thanks to all who have participated. As I have said elsewhere on PF I am considering an ovary-sparing spay for Violet, a 12-month old mini poodle who so far has never gone into heat. I am waiting until experiencing a heat with her to make a final decision re OSS vs traditional spay. I wish I had the freedom Raindrops has, to wait for a longer period while I learn how my dog experiences a heat cycle- anecdotal report is that it is easier with some dogs than others.

I heard the following observation from a long time breeder: sometimes a less than straight foot (slightly turned out or in) may straighten as the chest drops/fills out with mature development in an intact poodle. At times Violet’s front left foot appears slightly turned outwards. I am watching this with curiosity to see if it resolves by 18-24 months, though other factors may lead to a traditional spay before that much time passes. I have no scientific research to quote on this. Which is too bad because I doubt I would be the only one interested in reading such research.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Newport said:


> This has been a very interesting read. My thanks to all who have participated. As I have said elsewhere on PF I am considering an ovary-sparing spay for Violet, a 12-month old mini poodle who so far has never gone into heat. I am waiting until experiencing a heat with her to make a final decision re OSS vs traditional spay. I wish I had the freedom Raindrops has, to wait for a longer period while I learn how my dog experiences a heat cycle- anecdotal report is that it is easier with some dogs than others.
> 
> I heard the following observation from a long time breeder: sometimes a less than straight foot (slightly turned out or in) may straighten as the chest drops/fills out with mature development in an intact poodle. At times Violet’s front left foot appears slightly turned outwards. I am watching this with curiosity to see if it resolves by 18-24 months, though other factors may lead to a traditional spay before that much time passes. I have no scientific research to quote on this. Which is too bad because I doubt I would be the only one interested in reading such research.


Misha has always had a bit of foot turnout. It was extreme at one point when he was a pup. It has become less as he gets older but when he stands he will often turn out a little. But when he walks it is always perfectly straight as it should be. His breeder has always said that it will lessen as he fills our and may go away entirely. She has seen recent stacks of him and says he is filling out but will likely continue to improve as his father filled out very late. So I would agree there may be improvement. Misha certainly kept maturing after 12 months. I would look at how her feet fall when she is moving. They should face forward when walking even if she has some turn out due to narrow chest.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Newport said:


> This has been a very interesting read. My thanks to all who have participated. As I have said elsewhere on PF I am considering an ovary-sparing spay for Violet, a 12-month old mini poodle who so far has never gone into heat. I am waiting until experiencing a heat with her to make a final decision re OSS vs traditional spay. I wish I had the freedom Raindrops has, to wait for a longer period while I learn how my dog experiences a heat cycle- anecdotal report is that it is easier with some dogs than others.
> 
> I heard the following observation from a long time breeder: sometimes a less than straight foot (slightly turned out or in) may straighten as the chest drops/fills out with mature development in an intact poodle. At times Violet’s front left foot appears slightly turned outwards. I am watching this with curiosity to see if it resolves by 18-24 months, though other factors may lead to a traditional spay before that much time passes. I have no scientific research to quote on this. Which is too bad because I doubt I would be the only one interested in reading such research.


The biggest anatomical change in Peggy was the development of her vulva, which made me realize how _rare_ it is to see a mature canine vulva. It was rather startling at first—a vivid illustration of how early spay stops some physical development in its tracks.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I had to laugh at myself when Annie was a puppy and i was debating the spay thing.

I thought to myself, after 50 years of early spaying, surely its selected for good development prior to spay/and good health after spay.... uh.... no.... silly human. No spayed dogs have produced puppies. Seems really obvious, but it was kind of shocking to think about - when we choose breeding stock (for example, selecting for dogs without hip dysplasia), its all done with dogs who have not had this large surgery that 90% of pets have... we CAN'T select for anything to do with how a dog responds to a spay or neuter.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I had to laugh at myself when Annie was a puppy and i was debating the spay thing.
> 
> I thought to myself, after 50 years of early spaying, surely its selected for good development prior to spay/and good health after spay.... uh.... no.... silly human. No spayed dogs have produced puppies. Seems really obvious, but it was kind of shocking to think about - when we choose breeding stock (for example, selecting for dogs without hip dysplasia), its all done with dogs who have not had this large surgery that 90% of pets have... we CAN'T select for anything to do with how a dog responds to a spay or neuter.


This is a very good point. Breeders selecting for health are doing that with intact dogs. It makes sense that altering hormones would not benefit health.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> The biggest anatomical change in Peggy was the development of her vulva, which made me realize how _rare_ it is to see a mature canine vulva. It was rather startling at first—a vivid illustration of how early spay stops some physical development in its tracks.


Yes I know what you mean. And also they don't really develop nipples when spayed early. Also, if you ever see a male neutered at 8 weeks you will know. But you might have some difficulty realizing he's a male.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I can't say that I've ever paid much attention to dog vulvas over the years. My Mia (since passed) was spayed around six months, but as a cavalier she had fluff...and I guess I just didn't notice? With Violet I check size regularly because I'm monitoring for heat. It seems like in her latest haircut, a shorter modern, I can kind of see it there when looking from the back- like a tab pointing downward. Does this mean something? I'm driving myself mad with this heat monitoring... Lol, it's both silly and important.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Newport said:


> I can't say that I've ever paid much attention to dog vulvas over the years. My Mia (since passed) was spayed around six months, but as a cavalier she had fluff...and I guess I just didn't notice? With Violet I check size regularly because I'm monitoring for heat. It seems like in her latest haircut, a shorter modern, I can kind of see it there when looking from the back- like a tab pointing downward. Does this mean something? I'm driving myself mad with this heat monitoring... Lol, it's both silly and important.


Lol. I know. I definitely didn't think I would ever care so much about canine vulvas. I, too, never really noticed them....likely because of how commonplace early spay has become. A juvenile vulva is not especially noticeable.

Peggy's, on the other hand, now looks like...well...a vulva! And it protrudes slightly. It's clearly visible from the back.

During her heat cycles, when it really swells up, she almost looks like she has testicles! My husband was so relieved when I observed that out loud. He didn't want to be the one to say it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> My dog's breeder had it in his contract that he was not allowed to be neutered until after 12 months.


It's not only vets but also breeders who will require different timelines for spay/neuter due to motive.

Pretty simply and generally, a breeder who puts the individual pups health first will not require spay/neuter before the pup is mature or close to mature. They're likely keeping up with current health studies. They'll also usually be open to reasonable alternatives.

A breeder who's more concerned about their pups not being bred without their express permission will usually require an earlier spay/neuter and will often hold the registration papers til proof of de-sexing is provided. They may also be open to reasonable alternatives.

Then you have the breeders who sell full registration/breeding rights simply for the price of admission, apparently without vetting the buyer's intent. They'll offer both limited and full registration and the limited will likely have an early spay/neuter age but they won't likely be open and would simply suggest the buyer pay for full registration.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

That's good to know as it looks like we'll be going down this route after speaking to her breeder today and all of the information here! I'll keep having a look into it though, if nothing else it's interesting!


Newport said:


> This has been a very interesting read. My thanks to all who have participated. As I have said elsewhere on PF I am considering an ovary-sparing spay for Violet, a 12-month old mini poodle who so far has never gone into heat. I am waiting until experiencing a heat with her to make a final decision re OSS vs traditional spay. I wish I had the freedom Raindrops has, to wait for a longer period while I learn how my dog experiences a heat cycle- anecdotal report is that it is easier with some dogs than others.
> 
> I heard the following observation from a long time breeder: sometimes a less than straight foot (slightly turned out or in) may straighten as the chest drops/fills out with mature development in an intact poodle. At times Violet’s front left foot appears slightly turned outwards. I am watching this with curiosity to see if it resolves by 18-24 months, though other factors may lead to a traditional spay before that much time passes. I have no scientific research to quote on this. Which is too bad because I doubt I would be the only one interested in reading such research.


Without going to far off topic I've heard that on the smaller varieties an earlier spay of around 6-12 months is acceptable because they have less growing to do. Is there any truth to that or would it still be better to wait?


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## Sketa (Mar 4, 2020)

robbiewatson said:


> Hi all,
> I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
> I'm currently researching the best age to spay our puppy. Our vet has recommended the common six month age but many people have said wait until after the first season. Ideally we would prefer not to let her get to her first heat but wouldn't want to do anything detrimental to her health for the sake of our convenience.
> I'm wondering if anyone has actually had a poodle suffer with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?
> ...


Interesting read: Dr. Chris Zink, U-Penn. ,DVM, PhD, DACVP, DACVSMR

The breeder and vet also recommended waiting 6-8 months after first heat. We waited with both our females. 


Dogs that have been spayed or neutered at or before puberty can often be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrower chests and narrower skulls than intact dogs of the same breed. This differential growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months, prior to a dog being spayed or neutered, but the tibia (which normally stops growing at 12-14 months of age) continues to elongate for several months after that point because of the removal of the sex hormones, then the relationship between the femur and tibia will be different than what was genetically determined. This may result in an abnormal angle at the stifle and a longer (and therefore heavier) tibia placing increased stress on the cranial cruciate ligament (of the knee or stifle joint). It is well known that spayed and neutered dogs are more likely to be overweight or obese than sexually intact dogs and this can be a contributing factor for orthopedic diseases. Thus, keeping the spay/neutered canine athlete lean can help mitigate the increase rise of orthopedic conditions.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The concerns about cancer and bone growth are well worth considering. I think options for exercise and socialization are also worth thinking about. Doggie daycare and boarding facilities often won't accept intact dogs over 6 months of age. Many dog parks also do not allow intact dogs. I'm working from home, I have access to a dog walker, and I have a fenced backyard. Therefore, I'm not dependent on doggie daycare. However, I would have liked to take Galen to some doggie play dates, as he doesn't get to play with other dogs very much right now.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

cowpony said:


> The concerns about cancer and bone growth are well worth considering. I think options for exercise and socialization are also worth thinking about. Doggie daycare and boarding facilities often won't accept intact dogs over 6 months of age. Many dog parks also do not allow intact dogs. I'm working from home, I have access to a dog walker, and I have a fenced backyard. Therefore, I'm not dependent on doggie daycare. However, I would have liked to take Galen to some doggie play dates, as he doesn't get to play with other dogs very much right now.


I was worried about this too, but I think that must depend on the community. 

Annie went to doggy daycare at 8 mo, unspayed at a local kennel, and the only rules i have seen at the dog parks i have been to (4 municipalitie) have been "not in heat" which is fair. Plenty of unfixed dogs. 

3/4 of the dog kennels i have looked at have all said 'not in heat' as their criteria as well (there was one that required spaying after 6 months). I was also lucky to have several family members, including one who has an intact co-own female as alternatives for dog sitting.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I was worried about this too, but I think that must depend on the community.
> 
> Annie went to doggy daycare at 8 mo, unspayed at a local kennel, and the only rules i have seen at the dog parks i have been to (4 municipalitie) have been "not in heat" which is fair. Plenty of unfixed dogs.
> 
> 3/4 of the dog kennels i have looked at have all said 'not in heat' as their criteria as well (there was one that required spaying after 6 months). I was also lucky to have several family members, including one who has an intact co-own female as alternatives for dog sitting.


I have seen similar things in the places I've lived. I've never seen a dog park that doesn't allow intact dogs but I've heard about them so they must exist somewhere. Not bringing a dog in heat is sensible. Even if there were only females, a dog in heat is still likely to stir things up and cause fights among females. The daycares around me do allow intact males but I have seen some that don't allow intact females over a certain age. I don't think it's all of them though. Personally I have always worried too much to take my dog to a daycare. I don't trust other people to be good judges of his behavior.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I have seen similar things in the places I've lived. I've never seen a dog park that doesn't allow intact dogs but I've heard about them so they must exist somewhere. Not bringing a dog in heat is sensible. Even if there were only females, a dog in heat is still likely to stir things up and cause fights among females. The daycares around me do allow intact males but I have seen some that don't allow intact females over a certain age. I don't think it's all of them though. Personally I have always worried too much to take my dog to a daycare. I don't trust other people to be good judges of his behavior.


Agreed on daycare. I wasnt a fan, but it was when Annie was going through seperation anxiety. So it was either daycare, or have her howl and try and bust out of her crate for HOURS while i was at work (dangerous, and not fair to downstairs tenant). Daycare allowed me the time to work on it, without stressing her but i was glad to stop. 
Daycare is where she picked up her squirrel obsession, and i think for a while afterwards she wasnt as polite with playing with other dogs - she apparently played for almost the entire 8 hrs, and "8 hrs of running play" is not the energy level i want to cultivate! Still, i was grateful for the option.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

robbiewatson said:


> That's good to know as it looks like we'll be going down this route after speaking to her breeder today and all of the information here! I'll keep having a look into it though, if nothing else it's interesting!
> Without going to far off topic I've heard that on the smaller varieties an earlier spay of around 6-12 months is acceptable because they have less growing to do. Is there any truth to that or would it still be better to wait?


Yes there is some truth to that in that they do finish growth earlier so are less likely to be affected by orthopedic issues. UC Davis did still detect increased risk for neutering <6 mo. but you likely would be fine neutering closer to a year. Personally I think there are still benefits to letting them go the full 18 or 24 months in terms of their mental development. Altering the hormones can have a big effect on confidence and anxiety. I think it is ideal for them to completely mature and develop normal adult behavior patterns before the hormones are removed. My 1.5 year old mini still has some naive puppy behaviors that I think will likely change as he finishes maturing.

That said, sometimes dogs have significant behavioral issues that necessitate neutering before one would like. Especially with males since obsessive humping (especially of people) or intrasexual aggression can impact a dog's ability to engage socially. It's something that needs to be decided with the individual dog in mind.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

In my area there is at least 1 daycare that allows intact or OSS’d dogs. I’ve never noticed any signs regarding limitations at out public dog parks, but I don’t go so may be out of touch. In my area daycare is mostly run by dog trainers and their assistants, so the basic rules and management techniques appear good. Violet never made it past their intake assessment (3x), I realized it wasn’t her cup of tea. Nothing bad happened but she didn’t enjoy it. I intended it to be supplemental socialization two hours a week while I helped my mom. Violet prefers to help me help my mom.


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## Jeannette (Aug 31, 2011)

robbiewatson said:


> Hi all,
> I know there are a few posts on the forum about this already but I'm hoping to see if anyone has anything to add more recently.
> I'm currently researching the best age to spay our puppy. Our vet has recommended the common six month age but many people have said wait until after the first season. Ideally we would prefer not to let her get to her first heat but wouldn't want to do anything detrimental to her health for the sake of our convenience.
> I'm wondering if anyone has actually had a poodle suffer with growth plates continuing to grow past the point they normally would?
> ...


I had a male standard that was neutered by the breeder at 9 weeks. This was a number of years ago, before I had learned about the problems with early spay/neuter. Sidney should have been about 25” at the withers when full grown. He grew to be slightly over 28” at the withers. He also suffered from hip displasia in his later years. Sadly, I had to have him put down, at 11.5 years. I would never had taken Sidney as a puppy had I known all that happened. Since then, I have had three females, all of which were spayed at 13+ months, all before their first heat cycle. None of them are oversized and none suffer from hip displasia. No problem with mammalian cancer or ovarian cancer.
If your puppy is a STANDARD poodle pup, waiting until she is 12-13 months would probably be a good idea. If she is a mini or toy, I’d ask for some suggestions from owners or breeders of that poodle variety.


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## robbiewatson (Jun 14, 2020)

Thanks for posting, sorry to hear that it must have been tough. It's good to know you never had any ill affects spaying later but before first heat!


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## hrsldy (Oct 8, 2019)

cate&clair said:


> The best research and advice on spay/neuter is available to you by phone (or in person) with your trusted vet and your breeder. Listen to them. They will be able to cut through the volume of (sometimes suspect ) research and data for you, and advise you based on real experience and knowledge.
> Your vet and your breeder are more reliable sources than anything you can get online, including here.


My Vet and Breeder do not agree on neutering age. For my male Poodle my Breeder says 2 years or never, my Vet says 6 months. I am trying to wait until 18 months at least, two years if I can. My husband constantly bugs me to get it done now. Joey will be 1 year old the 10th of this month.


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## Fwayiam (Jan 22, 2020)

I had my toy poodle spayed at 6 months. She's totally fine with no issues Cuddly, energetic and happy. Definitely up to the dog owner and vet though. I was very worried about complications. I altered some baby onesies to fit her while she healed from the incisions. Also kept her warm during the winter here in Canada 😊


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## hrsldy (Oct 8, 2019)

Fwayiam said:


> I had my toy poodle spayed at 6 months. She's totally fine with no issues Cuddly, energetic and happy. Definitely up to the dog owner and vet though. I was very worried about complications. I altered some baby onesies to fit her while she healed from the incisions. Also kept her warm during the winter here in Canada 😊


I don't know all the facts but I think it is "thought" that the small dogs (toy) are less prone to problems with an earlier spay. They mature faster or something. And something like hip dysplasia is not common in small dogs. That said, not all dogs have a problem with early neuter or spay. My rescued 65 lb. mixed breed was 4 months when I adopted him and already neutered. He will be 13 in January 2021


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