# Color Questions



## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

I am going to be getting into breeding in about 6 months and have lined up a great stud for my oldest girl. I also have a deposit on a little male that will eventually be our stud. I'm trying to get my mind around the genetics of color and hope for some clarification if I'm mistaken with my understanding of things. So the stud is a Red Parti with two Red parents and that would be depicted as ??ee PP(I don't know what indicates piebald but that's what I mean) with ? silvering gene(s) . Stella is a true brown with a brown Parti father and a (maybe?) Blue mother. So that would be bbE? Pp with no silvering gene. So their pups could possibly be Black, Brown, Blue, Silver Beige, Cream, Apricot, or Red and half will be Parti colored. My male puppy is a Black? Parti out of a (probably) Black mom and a silver beige dad. So he is indicated by BbEe(there are creams/apricots in his background so it is likely though not certain) with 0, 1, or 2 silvering genes depending on how they fell and if momma is a Blue. I'm hoping for 0 silvering genes but we'll see as he ages. Do I have this right so far?


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

what poodle people call 'parti' is genetically piebald. 
S indicates no white, and sp indicates piebald. 

any parti dog will carry two copies of piebald, and therefore be sp/sp

your red parti male stud will be ee sp/sp and either BB, Bb, or bb. If he is bb he will have liver pigment rather than black - do you know what color his eye rims/nose is? 

Stella is for sure bb S/sp, and is either Ee or EE

until you know what the "B" your red male carries and what "E" Stella is, you can't predict anything at all regarding base color. The only certain is that half the litter will be parti and half will be parti carriers 

You won't ever get a silver beige out of them however, as a silver beige has two progressive greying genes, and you're not even sure that Stella has 1 copy. If she does have a copy, she is a cafe as lait, not a silver beige.

Your black parti male is Bb sp/sp, but unless you color test him, knowing that there is red in his pedigree doesn't mean anything at all. he could carry for, or he could not. If his dad is a silver beige, then your 'black' puppy is actually a blue. silver beiges always pass on a greying gene to their offspring. How old is the puppy? It will be obvious by 8 weeks if he is a silver, and he has to be either a silver or a blue. 

You could also color test the K and A loci to determine if any of them could produce sable or phantom. 

Let me know if you need any clarification on anything


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> what poodle people call 'parti' is genetically piebald.
> S indicates no white, and sp indicates piebald.
> 
> any parti dog will carry two copies of piebald, and therefore be sp/sp
> ...


This is so much fun







! He must carry bbee because he has liver points. Can you see my profile picture well? Her nose is lighter at the end. Do you think that is Café Au Lait clearing or sun lightening it? Her tail is also that color but not at the roots. I looked under her paws and they don't have white hairs in them. I've attached a full body pic of her too. She plays outside a lot so I'm just unsure how much that is playing a part. Thank you for helping me out. I've been trying to find a conclusive answer as to which it is that carries two greying genes silver beige or cafe au lait. So silver beige correlates with silver and C.A.L. with Blue.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

HeritageHills said:


> I've been trying to find a conclusive answer as to which it is that carries two greying genes silver beige or cafe au lait. So silver beige correlates with silver and C.A.L. with Blue.


that's correct! two copies is silver/silver beige, and one copy is blue/cafe au lait. Progressive greying does also affect red dogs, but it's harder to differentiate the shades, because there are separate intensity genes that also affect the pheomelanain that makes red. ee red can already be anywhere from deep irish setter red to pure samoyed white, and adding progressive greying to that makes identifying just by looks very difficult!

Red Male: bb ee sp/sp
Stella: bb E_ S/sp (you won't know if she carries e (recessive red) without color testing)

If Stella does carry red (therefore is Ee), you could expect: 
50% parti
50% parti carriers (possibly abstract - a very small amount of white)
100% liver pigment (brown nose and eye rims)
50% red
50% brown 

If Stella doesn't carry red (therefore is EE), you could expect: 
50% parti
50% parti carriers (possibly abstract - a very small amount of white)
100% liver pigment (brown nose and eye rims)
100% brown 

They won't ever produce browns. Depending on what they are at their K and A loci, they might produce sable or tanpoint, but it is unlikely 

As for Stella having progressive greying: Do you have any side shots of her standing square in good lightning? it'll be easier to see if she's greying with high quality shots.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Coldbrew, question for you. Dont breeders of red (apricot, cream, white) try to avoid breeding to Browns because it introduces liver pigment into their lines, which is not correct? Seems like I have heard/read that before. Where you say 100% pigment would be liver in your last post does that mean that all puppies would be liver pigmented from this cross?


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > I've been trying to find a conclusive answer as to which it is that carries two greying genes silver beige or cafe au lait. So silver beige correlates with silver and C.A.L. with Blue.
> ...


It's good that I'll be able to know if she carries red at all with this breeding. At least statistically half would be red, but I know that's just on paper.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Dont breeders of red (apricot, cream, white) try to avoid breeding to Browns because it introduces liver pigment into their lines, which is not correct?


Yes. According to the AKC breed standard, black pigment is required for red and creams. Brown pigment is acceptable for apricots, but not preferred. (I won't even get into how odd it is to have different requirements for cream and apricot, when genetically they could be completely identical.) Liver pigment is acceptable for browns (because brown dogs can only ever have liver pigment). 



chinchillafuzzy said:


> Where you say 100% pigment would be liver in your last post does that mean that all puppies would be liver pigmented from this cross?


That's correct. Since both parent dogs have liver pigment (bb) all of their puppies will have liver pigment. 



HeritageHills said:


> It's good that I'll be able to know if she carries red at all with this breeding. At least statistically half would be red, but I know that's just on paper.


Very true. She could carry red and still have all brown puppies - it's just the odds! 

Judging from that picture, Id say she's cafe with about 75% certainty. Is the hair around the edges of her ear leather a lighter brown than the rest of her body? Is the hair around her anus also a lighter brown? Those are the places that also tend to grey quickly, along with the face and the insides of the legs. 

Not color related, but have you shown Stella or had her evaluated by a conformation expert? She looks a bit long in the back (which can cause some health issues and is generally incorrect in a breed that should be square). Do you have photos of her from the angle of the photo I'm attaching? 

With the correct angle and the dog properly stacked, it's easy to judge the shape of the dog. My Piper has a crooked topline and a very straight front; she's a poorly-conformed dog, but to the average person there's nothing wrong with her.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Coldbrew said:


> chinchillafuzzy said:
> 
> 
> > Dont breeders of red (apricot, cream, white) try to avoid breeding to Browns because it introduces liver pigment into their lines, which is not correct?
> ...


Hmm, well her ears always go that color but they aren't that at the roots. I just thought it was the Sun. I'll try to get better pictures but it's hard to get them to stand still, lol. I've not shown her no.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Stella is 23in from the base of her tail to her neck(measured beside her body). 25in tall (to her shoulders). And she weighs 60 lbs. I'll attach pics of mom and dad plus hopefully better ones of her. I have noticed some silver hairs on her ears, and they are to the root. So I'd say you are right.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

HeritageHills said:


> Stella is 23in from the base of her tail to her neck(measured beside her body). 25in tall (to her shoulders). And she weighs 60 lbs. I'll attach pics of mom and dad plus hopefully better ones of her. I have noticed some silver hairs on her ears, and they are to the root. So I'd say you are right.


Try measuring from the bone on the hip that sticks out past her tail (the pin bone, I believe they call it) to the farthest point sticking out on the front of her chest for her length. That should give a more accurate measurement.

I would definitely consider her to be a cafe au lait, from the pics and since you saw some hairs that seem light clear to the root. So she would have one copy of the fading gene.

With the stud that you are breeding to, what are the improvements that you are looking to make upon Stella that he will be able to complement her in? Is he very square? Has he been fully health tested (including hips, etc. that can only be done after 2 years of age?) I would possibly reconsider that stud dog based solely on the fact that unless all of the pups are brown, any who are not will have incorrect pigment. Usually the goal in breeding is to make an improvement upon the parents. That is why it is so important to start with the most correct dogs that you can find, and seek to improve upon them in as many areas as possible. By figuring out all of the weaknesses in your own dogs and evaluating whether or not they really should be bred, then you can make a more informed decision as to which stud dog can help to improve upon the next generation. Glad you are here trying to learn more about the poodle breed that we all love and care so much about.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Stella is 23in from the base of her tail to her neck(measured beside her body). 25in tall (to her shoulders). And she weighs 60 lbs. I'll attach pics of mom and dad plus hopefully better ones of her. I have noticed some silver hairs on her ears, and they are to the root. So I'd say you are right.
> ...


His parents were health tested, but he has not been since he is not 2 yrs old yet. His owners plan to test him then. I will attach pictures of him and his parents. He seems like a very nice stud to me???? I'm doing pick of the litter because the stud fee is $1,500. She is wanting to keep a puppy and I had wanted to keep a few girls if any were what I was looking for in my breeding program.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

This is the parents of my little stud boy and their pedigrees. I have put down $100 deposit on him but would rather give it up than bring an unfit stud into my program. I have been communicating with a local vet and plan to consult a specialist via email on what I can do to verify health before I buy him. They are going to be taken for a vet check before going to their new homes, but I mean beyond that. I need to talk more with the breeder as I have more and more questions the more I learn. She had shoulder surgery and was recovering for the past week. Any suggestions as to the more specific type of questions I should ask?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Where you are considering keeping pup(s) and also the stud owner is considering keeping a pup most likely to be bred, I would be even more cautious in the planning for this litter. If you end up keeping pups from this litter, then Stella would be your "foundation bitch" and in my opinion it is critical that you figure out her strengths and weaknesses, and find a stud who will complement them. You will also want the pups evaluated by someone with a very experienced eye to be able to decide which one is worth keeping. Be careful of doing pick of the litter for a stud fee when you are also wanting to keep a pup yourself. That means that right off the bat you will be taking the "second best" and if the litter isn't the greatest quality to begin with... To me it would just be perpetuating lines that perhaps shouldn't have even been bred in the first place. All dogs have faults, even the top show dogs. They may just have less areas that need major "fixing" for the next generation. When you start with low quality, it is much much harder to build up to that level. At least you are planning to do all health testing, but it will just take a very long time to be producing quality poodles if you start with low quality. 

I am not an expert, but looking at the pics of that stud dog, his front is extremely incorrect. Granted the pictures are not great for evaluation so I may be off, but it appears to me that his front is very very straight, he has very little width of chest (his two front legs are too close together), his tailset is too low, he is too long in back, his pigment is incorrect, and his gait does not look correct in the picture of him walking towards the camera. That is just what I see, from these pics that are not great for evaluating, but really putting your hands on the dog is important for an accurate eval. I hope you don't take any of my comments personally, I am just trying to point out what I am seeing here.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Where you are considering keeping pup(s) and also the stud owner is considering keeping a pup most likely to be bred, I would be even more cautious in the planning for this litter. If you end up keeping pups from this litter, then Stella would be your "foundation bitch" and in my opinion it is critical that you figure out her strengths and weaknesses, and find a stud who will complement them. You will also want the pups evaluated by someone with a very experienced eye to be able to decide which one is worth keeping. Be careful of doing pick of the litter for a stud fee when you are also wanting to keep a pup yourself. That means that right off the bat you will be taking the "second best" and if the litter isn't the greatest quality to begin with... To me it would just be perpetuating lines that perhaps shouldn't have even been bred in the first place. All dogs have faults, even the top show dogs. They may just have less areas that need major "fixing" for the next generation. When you start with low quality, it is much much harder to build up to that level. At least you are planning to do all health testing, but it will just take a very long time to be producing quality poodles if you start with low quality.
> 
> I am not an expert, but looking at the pics of that stud dog, his front is extremely incorrect. Granted the pictures are not great for evaluation so I may be off, but it appears to me that his front is very very straight, he has very little width of chest (his two front legs are too close together), his tailset is too low, he is too long in back, his pigment is incorrect, and his gait does not look correct in the picture of him walking towards the camera. That is just what I see, from these pics that are not great for evaluating, but really putting your hands on the dog is important for an accurate eval. I hope you don't take any of my comments personally, I am just trying to point out what I am seeing here.


Oh no, I'm very thankful for more experienced opinions  . How else can I learn? I would rather pay the stud fee instead of POTL but I can't pay that much with no guarantees. I had considered using this stud (picture below) at more than half the cost but thought that Rigby (the red parti) would be a better stud. Maybe I was mistaken??? I won't keep any if none are quality enough to breed. Do you know of any breeders in VA that would be willing to check them out for me since I'm not a pro? I am concerned about temperament/health most of all, but I do care about conformation. I just can't necessarily get to winning show level right away. We are a one income with children household and I'm a SAHM. I married very young and have never had a "real" job, though I finished high school and took some college classes where I did top levels (just so you know I'm not an ignorant hillbilly, lol).cte My mother was a breeder(definitely not a professional one though) so I know about the practical side of caring for breeding dogs and would like to have something to fall back on if my husband were unable to work for some reason. I'm not in a hurry though and if I could make enough in the first years to cover the proper care of my dogs and to save/invest for the future I would be very happy. I don't really plan to start my own line. If I got that far I would probably start new with foundation dogs from the professional breeders and go from there. I just don't feel it has to be pro or nothing.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

HeritageHills said:


> Oh no, I'm very thankful for more experienced opinions  . How else can I learn? I would rather pay the stud fee instead of POTL but I can't pay that much with no guarantees. I had considered using this stud (picture below) at more than half the cost but thought that Rigby (the red parti) would be a better stud. Maybe I was mistaken??? I won't keep any if none are quality enough to breed. Do you know of any breeders in VA that would be willing to check them out for me since I'm not a pro? I am concerned about temperament/health most of all, but I do care about conformation. I just can't necessarily get to winning show level right away. We are a one income with children household and I'm a SAHM. I married very young and have never had a "real" job, though I finished high school and took some college classes where I did top levels (just so you know I'm not an ignorant hillbilly, lol).cte My mother was a breeder(definitely not a professional one though) so I know about the practical side of caring for breeding dogs and would like to have something to fall back on if my husband were unable to work for some reason. I'm not in a hurry though and if I could make enough in the first years to cover the proper care of my dogs and to save/invest for the future I would be very happy. I don't really plan to start my own line. If I got that far I would probably start new with foundation dogs from the professional breeders and go from there. I just don't feel it has to be pro or nothing.


I don't know enough about breeding but I just wanted to tell you that at first, I was very doubtful of your project but I then was impressed at how open you are towards knowledgeable members and how willing to learn you are. 

I wanted to congratulate you for that. I hope that you continue to take advantage of the great advice you are getting to become a good breeder working to maintain and improve this great breed.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

You're not going to be doing the breed any favors by breeding these dogs. Yikes.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Dechi said:


> I don't know enough about breeding but I just wanted to tell you that at first, I was very doubtful of your project but I then was impressed at how open you are towards knowledgeable members and how willing to learn you are.
> 
> I wanted to congratulate you for that. I hope that you continue to take advantage of the great advice you are getting to become a good breeder working to maintain and improve this great breed.


That means a lot to me, thank you  . I want to always improve, and maybe one day to even be considered a very good breeder. I just can't get there right away.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

If you want to be considered a "very good breeder" someday you should start off on the right foot to begin with. You say you are planning on getting into breeding in about 6 months?? Really?? If you are serious about being a breeder you should not. You should find a well respected breeder with lots of experience and titled breed and performance dogs to see if they will mentor you. You should work with them for quite some time (way more than 6 months) to understand the breed standard, bloodlines, etc. before you even think of breeding your first litter. There is no need for you to have your own stud for quite some time, if ever. If you are thinking that having your own stud will save you stud fees that is not the right reason to get a dog to use at stud. I know many breeders that have a dog they are using at stud, all of them finished AKC champions and many with performance titles as well, that still go outside and pay stud fees because the dog they have is not the right match for a particular bitch they are breeding. And looking at the pedigrees on your potential stud puppy, there is nothing there in generations that shows any of the dogs behind him were shown or titled in any venue..... 

Why do you want to breed? Are you just hoping to make money off puppies? Or do you genuinely want to better the breed. The dogs you are breeding should be proven worthy of reproducing. Especially for foundation stock you are going to start your lines on. Why do you think your current bitch is worthy of breeding? You seem very focused on colors she could produce and that is the very last thing that should matter. No offense to you, and being honest here, but from pictures posted she does not look like a stellar example of the breed. Have you shown her in breed competition - AKC or UKC? If not, have you had her evaluated by a reputable breeder as to her confirmation to see if she is breeding quality at all? Has she proven herself in any other way? Does she have performance titles? 

You indicated money might be an issue for you right now as you are a one income family and you are a SAHM. Will you have enough money in reserve to cover issues that crop up when breeding? What if your bitch needs a C-section? What about all the usual testing done prior to breeding and during the pregnancy? How did you intend to do the breeding with the stud you posted about (who is also, in my opinion, not a breeding quality dog). Are you planning to do natural breedings with him? If not, are you going to do AI, transcervical insemination, etc.? If so, do you have a reproductive vet you are working with? 

You also said you would like to have something to fall back on if your husband were unable to work for some reason. Some of the very experienced breeders on this board can chime in and tell you just how unrealistic it would be to expect responsibly breeding dogs to support a family....


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Eclipse said:


> If you want to be considered a "very good breeder" someday you should start off on the right foot to begin with. You say you are planning on getting into breeding in about 6 months?? Really?? If you are serious about being a breeder you should not. You should find a well respected breeder with lots of experience and titled breed and performance dogs to see if they will mentor you. You should work with them for quite some time (way more than 6 months) to understand the breed standard, bloodlines, etc. before you even think of breeding your first litter. There is no need for you to have your own stud for quite some time, if ever. If you are thinking that having your own stud will save you stud fees that is not the right reason to get a dog to use at stud. I know many breeders that have a dog they are using at stud, all of them finished AKC champions and many with performance titles as well, that still go outside and pay stud fees because the dog they have is not the right match for a particular bitch they are breeding. And looking at the pedigrees on your potential stud puppy, there is nothing there in generations that shows any of the dogs behind him were shown or titled in any venue.....
> 
> Why do you want to breed? Are you just hoping to make money off puppies? Or do you genuinely want to better the breed. The dogs you are breeding should be proven worthy of reproducing. Especially for foundation stock you are going to start your lines on. Why do you think your current bitch is worthy of breeding? You seem very focused on colors she could produce and that is the very last thing that should matter. No offense to you, and being honest here, but from pictures posted she does not look like a stellar example of the breed. Have you shown her in breed competition - AKC or UKC? If not, have you had her evaluated by a reputable breeder as to her confirmation to see if she is breeding quality at all? Has she proven herself in any other way? Does she have performance titles?
> 
> ...



In the new member section there is a veeery long discussion on my post. That describes more my intentions and mindset as far as professional breeding goes. As far as money goes; we have what is needed to take care of our animals, but not enough to spend thousands on dogs, thousands on breeding fees, and thousands on tests too. It reeeally bothers me that what comes across is unless you are wealthy you cannot produce quality dogs. And that you have to start at professional level to be worthy of the title breeder. There may be homeless dogs in abundance but honestly the ones that can't find homes (at least in my area) are either mixed with pit bull or Chihuahua and you couldn't pay me to take either. So if all the poodles cost thousands only the wealthy would be able to have them. And that's just not right if you ask me. I want average (responsible) families to be able to enjoy healthy, friendly, intelligent , amazing Poodles too. I don't expect breeding to ever fully support my family, but it could be a supplemental income that would be compatible with online work. And something I could enjoy with my children as they grow.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

HeritageHills said:


> Stella is 23in from the base of her tail to her neck(measured beside her body).


Chinchillafuzzy had some great advice on how to accurately measure. If she's truly taller than she is long, then she's not square at all. A dog that off standard probably shouldn't be bred. How old is she? It's possible she still has some growing and evening out to do! 

Stella also looks very much like a cafe au lait. With that in mind, I've adjusted the possibilities of a litter when crossed with the previously mentioned red male stud. 

If Stella does carry red (therefore is Ee), you could expect: 
50% parti
50% parti carriers (possibly abstract - a very small amount of white)
100% liver pigment (brown nose and eye rims)
25% red (no fading) 
25% apricot (faded from red at birth) 
25% brown (no fading)
25% cafe au lait (faded from brown at birth) 

If Stella doesn't carry red (therefore is EE), you could expect: 
50% parti
50% parti carriers (possibly abstract - a very small amount of white)
100% liver pigment (brown nose and eye rims)
50% brown 
50% cafe au lait (faded from brown at birth) 

What titles does the stud you are considering have? Does he have his championship or grand championship? (In UKC or FCI since it's obviously not AKC) Has he passed his CGC? Does he have any sporting titles? Is he a service dog or a certified therapy animal? 

For a $1500 stud fee, the male needs to have his CGC at the very least. Basically ask yourself: what makes this dog "worthy" of having puppies? 

- What outstanding qualities does he have? 
- What are his biggest weaknesses? 
- How does your female compliment or worsen those qualities? 

I do have a concern about the ad for "Raygun" the red parti. He is listed as being a phantom, but that's a genetic impossibility. Red-based dogs cannot be phantom. They can be at/at at their A Locus, but will never show phantom markings . He's the sire of the stud dog you're considering, right? What titles do he and the stud's mother have? I.e. what have they done to prove themselves? 



HeritageHills said:


> I want average (responsible) families to be able to enjoy healthy, friendly, intelligent , amazing Poodles too. I don't expect breeding to ever fully support my family, but it could be a supplemental income that would be compatible with online work.


The reason why high quality poodle puppies are expensive is because it is expensive to breed high quality puppies. To price puppies any lower (while still making enough money that it would be 'supplemental income') you have to cut corners. 

Those cut corners include not showing your dogs. There is no reason to breed a dog that has not proven itself worthy of reproducing. There is no excuse to not show a dog if you plan on breeding it UNLESS you intend to prove it in other ways (like sporting titles or service dog work). 

A dog that hasn't been shown to its championship or at the very least evaluated by a qualified judge also risks NOT being a healthy, friendly, intelligent and amazing poodle, because it doesn't fit everything that the breed standard encapsulates. What separates a poodle from a beagle is how well the dog fits the breed standard. Two dogs that have objectively been declared outstanding examples of the breed are much more likely to produce a high quality puppy than two dogs that are totally unproven. If a poodle doesn't fit the breed standard and you bred it to another that doesn't fit the standard, you end up with puppies that will almost certainly not meet the breed standard. So you'll be selling what are essentially "knock off" poodles. They look pretty close to the real thing, but aren't quite as high quality. 

Are you comfortable with selling knock off poodles to people for profit, while telling them they are "the real thing"?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

In 1974 I was at a dog show with my toy poodle when I "met" Ch. Jaylee Banacek. He offered me a paw and I fell in love. At that time I was married to a Navy enlisted man and was an elementary school teacher in west Florida. To say that we were not wealthy is a tremendous understatement. My children qualified for free lunch . . .

I became friends with Banacek's owners/breeders, the Dazzios. They offered to sell me a puppy who was a full brother from a repeat breeding on a co-ownership agreement. That's how I came to have Ch. Jaylee Charley Black and, later, a number of other Jaylee standard poodles. To give you an idea of the quality of those dogs - from the first breeding - the Banacek litter, seven of the eight completed their championships. Banacek was a British champion as well as an American champion (British championships are very, very, very much more difficult to achieve). There were 4 puppies in Charley's litter - all 4 finished their championship.

The Dazzios knew that I had very little money but was willing to do every thing I could to show and breed outstanding standard poodles. So we worked out arrangements such that I took care of some of their dogs but they paid the expenses.

Besides learning from the Dazzios, I befriended and learned from some of the most wonderful poodle breeders and judges in the USA - people like Annie Clark, Dorothy Nickles, and Henry Stoecker. One way I got to know some of those people was to become a dog show steward. So over the years I was able to become a pretty decent poodle breeder even though I was certainly not wealthy.

Many people have gotten their start by associating with a breeder who is a "household name" in a particular breed. There is so very much to learn!

So listen to the people on this forum who have suggested to you to go to a really knowledgeable poodle breeder and learn as much as possible from that person.

I don't know where you live, but there are top-notch poodle breeders in every corner of this country, so you should be able to find one.

Go to dog shows and observe the dogs who are competing. Try to figure out why the judge places them as s/he does. Poodles are not easy to judge because the coat hides so much, but you still can see a great deal.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It's really hard to evaluate Stella because her face is not clipped and none of her photos were taken with her "set up" in a "show" pose. However, as a former poodle judge, I can tell you that she is not what I would consider as a foundation bitch.

Use the Illustrated Poodle Standard from Poodle Club of America to evaluate her. I think you will find that she has several major faults.

While there have been some foundation bitches who had a single major fault, you would be hard-pressed to find any that had several.

When you look for a male for a particular bitch, you look for one that is overall an excellent specimen and who does not have the same faults as your bitch. For example, if your bitch does not have a very good head you would want to breed to a dog who has an excellent head and who comes from a line of poodles that have excellent heads.

Hope that all makes sense.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Thanks again everyone. I found this and am seriously considering going since it's only a few hours away from me. It sounds awesome. https://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/services/reproductive/canine-breeder-seminar.asp


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Here is Stella's mother's pedigree and the breeder's website info.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

HeritageHills said:


> Here is Stella's mother's pedigree and the breeder's website info.


I don't think that is a very specific pedigree for your dog......it is more of a list of champions from that particular dog's lineage it doesn't specify who was bred to who .......If you have your dogs AKC registration papers there is a registration # on it which you can use to find your dogs lineage Example of a pedigree looks like this: (this is only a 3 gen. pedigree)


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

RED FLAG ALERT!!! Googled a few names from the 'pedigrees' and if you google Rowland Poodles(where the names led me) they not only have pedigree lists much like Silver Heart, but if you scroll down to 'past puppies' the puppy pictures are the same on both sites ( the same blk and wht parti is unmistakeable!)...Rowland Poodles breeds doodles!!!!

You really need to do some research...........I think I would DNA Stella to make sure you don't have a doodle or if Silver Heart is affliated with RowlandPoodles..... Sets my bells ringin' Hope I am wrong!


P.S. Also on the Rowland site under 'testimonials' is a 'Lacey'.............And waaay down at the bottom it says 'website designed by Silver Heart'. I find all of this to be quite odd!


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

MollyMuiMa said:


> RED FLAG ALERT!!! Googled a few names from the 'pedigrees' and if you google Rowland Poodles(where the names led me) they not only have pedigree lists much like Silver Heart, but if you scroll down to 'past puppies' the puppy pictures are the same on both sites ( the same blk and wht parti is unmistakeable!)...Rowland Poodles breeds doodles!!!!
> 
> You really need to do some research...........I think I would DNA Stella to make sure you don't have a doodle or if Silver Heart is affliated with RowlandPoodles..... Sets my bells ringin' Hope I am wrong!
> 
> ...


There is a simple answer for that. Lacey was Silver Heart's first breeding dog, which was from Rowland Poodles. They later used a spoo stud from Rowland's which is how Stella came about. So it seems that was her mentor.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

So basically you are setting yourself up to be another one of the tons of backyard breeders that are breeding inferior stock to inferior stock to produce inferior puppies. Congratulations... Paying for QUALITY breeding stock to start with does cost thousands. You want your foundation bitch to be absolutely worthy of breeding. And paying for breeding fees on QUALITY stud dogs who have proven themselves in some way does cost thousands. Other than you liking his color, what has your chosen stud done to warrant him reproducing? That's a valid question to ask before using a male for breeding.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

What do you look at in young puppies to evaluate potential? I know there are absolutely no guarantees, but obviously there are SOME things to consider.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

MollyMuiMa I hadn't looked up those two breeders but that is exactly what I would have expected. It is sad that Stella came from bybs who also meddle in doodles.

OP, if you care to hear my honest opinion, here is what I feel. I think it's great you are looking to find out more info before jumping into all of this. And you have been very pleasant to talk to and seem to be eager to learn which is wonderful, keep up that attitude! If I were in your situation, I would spay both girls that you currently have. Then either keep them as family companions or place them in lovely pet homes. Cancel the deposit on the male that you are looking to purchase. Then talk to some good parti breeders. You are lucky because it is actually easier (in my opinion, I could be way off!) to get your foot in the door of good parti lines since you don't have to worry about AKC showing. Then inquire about doing a guardian home - a way to get a very high quality dog for very cheap/free in some cases. Be very up front about your interest in breeding and intentions. Perhaps they would be willing to work out a contract with you that after each litter that your guardian both has, you can keep a pup, or something like that. It is the perfect situation because the breeder you work with will be very inclined to help you succeed and will have a ton of good advice and experience to share with you. Yes it is a slower way to build up your breeding program, but you will feel so much better about the quality poodles you will be producing, AND you will gain great mentors. There is a group on fb - something like Litters from Health Tested Poodles. That would be a great place to start. Even if you don't want to do a guardian contract, I am willing to bet that if you do spay your other dogs and show that you are willing to commit 100% to breeding the right way, that you could probably find someone to sell you a very nice pup without a guardian contract. Yes, it will be more expensive. But for your foundation stock, it is so very important that you start off on the right foot. Good breeders can't always keep all of the nice pups in a litter, even those who would be worthy of running on, so I don't think that it would be too difficult to find a breeder who has a nice pup and who may have an interest in running her on. There are all kinds of contracts - like maybe they could do a slightly reduced price up front if you agree to give a puppy back after the first litter. They will help you select a stud dog since they would be invested in the litter, etc. sorry just rambling now and throwing out ideas. 

I again mean no offense to you or your dogs, I am just giving my suggestions to you. We are very poor but were able to work out an awesome contract with a show breeder so that we could get the dog of our dreams. My husband is in school and works only part time. I am a stay at home mom with my autistic son. You do not need to be rich to start off.

And to answer your question about evaluating pups, yes there are ways to evaluate 8 week old pups but they take a trained eye. If you are interested in learning more I would suggest watching Pat Hastings "Puppy Puzzle." For temperament most breeders use the Volhard test at 7 weeks. Sorry this ended up being so long and I don't have time to go back and proofread and make sure it even makes sense. Haha!


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> MollyMuiMa I hadn't looked up those two breeders but that is exactly what I would have expected. It is sad that Stella came from bybs who also meddle in doodles.
> 
> OP, if you care to hear my honest opinion, here is what I feel. I think it's great you are looking to find out more info before jumping into all of this. And you have been very pleasant to talk to and seem to be eager to learn which is wonderful, keep up that attitude! If I were in your situation, I would spay both girls that you currently have. Then either keep them as family companions or place them in lovely pet homes. Cancel the deposit on the male that you are looking to purchase. Then talk to some good parti breeders. You are lucky because it is actually easier (in my opinion, I could be way off!) to get your foot in the door of good parti lines since you don't have to worry about AKC showing. Then inquire about doing a guardian home - a way to get a very high quality dog for very cheap/free in some cases. Be very up front about your interest in breeding and intentions. Perhaps they would be willing to work out a contract with you that after each litter that your guardian both has, you can keep a pup, or something like that. It is the perfect situation because the breeder you work with will be very inclined to help you succeed and will have a ton of good advice and experience to share with you. Yes it is a slower way to build up your breeding program, but you will feel so much better about the quality poodles you will be producing, AND you will gain great mentors. There is a group on fb - something like Litters from Health Tested Poodles. That would be a great place to start. Even if you don't want to do a guardian contract, I am willing to bet that if you do spay your other dogs and show that you are willing to commit 100% to breeding the right way, that you could probably find someone to sell you a very nice pup without a guardian contract. Yes, it will be more expensive. But for your foundation stock, it is so very important that you start off on the right foot. Good breeders can't always keep all of the nice pups in a litter, even those who would be worthy of running on, so I don't think that it would be too difficult to find a breeder who has a nice pup and who may have an interest in running her on. There are all kinds of contracts - like maybe they could do a slightly reduced price up front if you agree to give a puppy back after the first litter. They will help you select a stud dog since they would be invested in the litter, etc. sorry just rambling now and throwing out ideas.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the good suggestions  . I'm in VA. Do you know of any good breeders in the state?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Sorry I don't really know of any breeders in VA so hopefully another forum member can help you out, and/or if you join the litters from health tested poodles group on FB you can ask there. I live in Utah and haven't ever really looked into partis  But I know you can find one! It seems there are lots of great breeders in the north east area!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

The Tidelands Poodle Club of Virginia has a great web site with a breeder referral page. Go to: www.tidelandspoodleclub.org/breeder-referral

I saw three well-known standard poodle breeders there (Asher, Marquis, and Adagio). 

If you live in northern Virginia, check out the Washington Poodle Club (Washington Poodle Club). They, too have a breeder referral page with an even longer list of people - some of whom are AKC Breeders of Merit. I see some very familiar names there, too.

If you live near either of these clubs, why not go to some of the meetings? This would be a wonderful way to meet some dedicated breeders and to learn a great deal about poodles.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

HeritageHills said:


> Thanks again everyone. I found this and am seriously considering going since it's only a few hours away from me. It sounds awesome. https://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/services/reproductive/canine-breeder-seminar.asp


That sounds like a wonderful seminar - too bad I'm much too far away to attend.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

I can't even remember which thread it was on, but someone said it was hard to know how well her face lined up with the breed standard because it was fuzzy. I just shaved it so here ya go. I looked through the PCofA illustrated breed guide too btw.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

She is darling, but not near breeding/show quality. Even my male who has a heavily AKC championed pedigree is not breeding/show quality. Usually a litter out of champion parents may have one or even a few that are show quality.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

zooeysmom said:


> She is darling, but not near breeding/show quality. Even my male who has a heavily AKC championed pedigree is not breeding/show quality. Usually a litter out of champion parents may have one or even a few that are show quality.


Thank you  , but why specifically? Flat feet, eyes too light/far apart, not a deep enough chest, etc etc??? I don't have an eye for this yet.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

HeritageHills said:


> Thank you  , but why specifically? Flat feet, eyes too light/far apart, not a deep enough chest, etc etc??? I don't have an eye for this yet.


I think you are, in fact, getting an eye! Yes, her eyes are too light, her head is too wide, there is no "stop" (the little drop-off from the top of the skull to the muzzle that is at the eye level), and her ears are set high.

One thing that would make her head more attractive would be to change the way her face is clipped and her topknot is shaped. There is a very good book on grooming poodles by Shirlee Kalstone. It was first published in 1968 - the current edition is dated 2001, but it is just as valid today as when it was first published. It has really good instructions on how to care for the coat and how to execute various clips. I went back to it when I bought Zoe because I had not done a show coat for many years and because I'm always open to good tips on grooming!

Generally, you clip from the opening of the ear to the corner of the eye to set the topknot line. Never, ever, clip above the eyes. The topknot should be scissored perpendicular to the muzzle and cheeks. That's a pretty crude description, but if you look at pictures of well-groomed poodles, I think you'll see what I mean.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Johanna said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you
> ...


Thanks! Yeah I've never been sure about how far up to go. I had to shave her ears and top closely when I got her  because it was too matted to brush all of it out. I'm keeping up with the brushing now, but last time I shaved her whole body I accidently got the topknot too short again. At least it grows back, lol.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

HeritageHills said:


> Here is Stella's mother's pedigree and the breeder's website info.


As MollyMuiMa pointed out, the list of championship dogs listed under the name of Lacey Le Caniche is definitely not a pedigree. I was able to find the pedigree of "SHPOODLES Lacey Le Caniche." I assume that is the same dog. Here is the pedigree:
Pedigree: SHPOODLES Lacey Le Caniche

This is not a good pedigree. Problems that I see with it:
1. In the 3 generation pedigree, there are only 2 UKC champions and no AKC champions. If you are going to be breeding, better to breed dogs from championship lines.
2. There is a lot of inbreeding. Lacey's mother is Angel Ro. Angel Ro's father is Sir Lance Alot Ro. And guess who Angel Ro was bred to? Answer: Sir Lance Alot Ro. So the daughter (Angel Ro) was bred to her own father (Sir Lance Alot Ro) and they are Lacey's parents. That's a really terrible idea. If you check the COIs, they are over 25%. Much too high.

If you want to breed healthy beautiful dogs with good temperaments, this is not a good place to start.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

peppersb said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Here is Stella's mother's pedigree and the breeder's website info.
> ...



WOW that is an awesome website!! Thank you very much for that information. I was not aware of the line breeding.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

HeritageHills said:


> Thanks! Yeah I've never been sure about how far up to go. I had to shave her ears and top closely when I got her  because it was too matted to brush all of it out. I'm keeping up with the brushing now, but last time I shaved her whole body I accidently got the topknot too short again. At least it grows back, lol.


Yes, thank goodness our grooming mistakes grow back! I can see that she is nicely brushed out - you are doing a great job on that!


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Johanna said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks! Yeah I've never been sure about how far up to go. I had to shave her ears and top closely when I got her  because it was too matted to brush all of it out. I'm keeping up with the brushing now, but last time I shaved her whole body I accidently got the topknot too short again. At least it grows back, lol.
> ...


Thank you  . I was just telling my husband last night how proud I was of Stella. When we got her it was really difficult to shave her face and feet because she was so nervous about it. But she learned so quickly that it wasn't anything to be afraid of and when I shaved her face this last time she just sat there. Now that she is really okay with the grooming I might try out some of the more practical poodle styles.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

HeritageHills said:


> Thank you  . I was just telling my husband last night how proud I was of Stella. When we got her it was really difficult to shave her face and feet because she was so nervous about it. But she learned so quickly that it wasn't anything to be afraid of and when I shaved her face this last time she just sat there. Now that she is really okay with the grooming I might try out some of the more practical poodle styles.


You said in another post that when you got Stella you had to shave her ears and top (I presume you meant topknot) because it/they were too matted to brush out. How old was she when you got her? If she was a puppy of the normal age you get them (8-10) weeks there is no way she should have been that matted. Did you get her when she was older from her breeder? Even if that was the case, a responsible "breeder" should not have sent you a dog so matted that you had to strip the ears and topknot... If you got her from the breeder, was she represented to you as a breeding quality bitch?


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Eclipse said:


> HeritageHills said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you
> ...



I know I've said it in another place, but I guess I put it in a confusing way. We got her when she was around 9 months from the people who had gotten her as a puppy. I think they got in over their heads with a puppy, pregnancy(which must have happened right when they got her) , then the c-section and moving. Her face had been shaved before, you could tell. But there were mats closer to the skin that I felt would be better to shave off and then just keep up with the brushing from new.


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## Poodle-y (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm reading this thread and appreciate the discussion regarding improving the breed and cost of high quality dogs. Is there no room in the breeding world for mid-range dogs for family pets? We had a fancy, fancy poodle from a top breeder who didn't end up working out temperament-wise for our family. We bought into the idea that "you get what you pay for" and hoped that our girl would be healthy and confident. It is always a huge risk, but we were out more than $2000.... For a family pet. In the end, we ended up with a dog from a breeder who does not show, but is careful with health testing and early neuro stimulation and has fit very well with our family.... Not a show dog, not a sibling of a show dog, or daughter of a show dog... But a happy and well loved member of our family


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Poodle-y said:


> Is there no room in the breeding world for mid-range dogs for family pets?


No. Not so long as there are pets in shelters.

-

That said, I am not entirely against people that breed high-quality dogs in order to create the ideal pet. I do believe any parent dog of such a litter should be still be thoroughly proven (whether through service, therapy, or obedience work), thoroughly health tested, and exceptionally well-conformed (objectively evaluated someone other than the breeder).

If they do not do so, they are only adding more mid-range dogs to the population when the United States already has an overabundance of them.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Coldbrew said:


> *No. Not so long as there are pets in shelters.
> *
> -
> 
> ...



I agree completely. Obviously good breeders who show will not produce 100% (or even close to that) show prospect puppies, but as long as there are so many dogs languishing in shelters and being euthanized then we don't need a ton of breeders producing happy pets. There are tons of mills and dog brokers who will take care of that niche.


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## Poodle-y (Jan 5, 2017)

I understand... but is there no in-between $2000 purebred puppies and abandoned BYB from the shelter?? Maybe not. I'm trying to consider the OPs interest to learn a craft without the entry bar being so so high. Maybe breeding dogs is like entering the Tour de France... and you can't enter just because you know how to ride a bike 

I'm glad that Coldbrew is not against breeders whose primary objective is to raise dogs that are good companions. After all... if dog ownership isn't about a relationship with your dog, but just about winning ribbons, i think we've missed the point and done a disservice to a species that instinctively just wants to please us and be around us.

I did watching the listings at the shelter after we re-homed our SPOO... and... most breeds were pit bull, doberman, and chihuahua mixes...a few terriers... didn't seem like a likely fit for our family with children.

Like most things in life, there are probably shades of grey... I just wouldn't write off an earnest person who wants to breed responsibly but isn't waiting 10-15 years for professional mentorship and going through several dogs before they contribute something "worthy" to the breed.


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## HeritageHills (Sep 4, 2017)

Poodle-y said:


> I did watching the listings at the shelter after we re-homed our SPOO... and... most breeds were pit bull, doberman, and chihuahua mixes...a few terriers... didn't seem like a likely fit for our family with children.


That was our experience too. We waited months before even finding a Poodle that wasn't either very old or not good with kids..... Aaaaand it was already rehomed before I even got in contact. You can't really find a Poodle/Doodle in a shelter where I'm at. It's all pit bulls, hounds, or Chihuahua and mostly mixes at that. It's just crazy. Finally found Stella and have been so blessed by her and then Cassie (who came from family).


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Poodle-y said:


> I understand... but is there no in-between $2000 purebred puppies and abandoned BYB from the shelter?? Maybe not. I'm trying to consider the OPs interest to learn a craft without the entry bar being so so high. Maybe breeding dogs is like entering the Tour de France... and you can't enter just because you know how to ride a bike
> 
> I'm glad that Coldbrew is not against breeders whose primary objective is to raise dogs that are good companions. *After all... if dog ownership isn't about a relationship with your dog, but just about winning ribbons, i think we've missed the point and done a disservice to a species that instinctively just wants to please us and be around us.*
> I did watching the listings at the shelter after we re-homed our SPOO... and... most breeds were pit bull, doberman, and chihuahua mixes...a few terriers... didn't seem like a likely fit for our family with children.
> ...


I don't know a show-bred dog here who doesn't have an outstanding temperament. As someone said before, most show-bred dogs do not make the cut and wind up being companions! They have to have wonderful temperaments!


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