# The Results Are In! The Good, The Not So Good, and The Huh?



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Very interesting. Glad you got this done. I think what you're asking for has to do with statistics and probabilities. Without knowing the parents' makeup, it seems like a wide variation but not impossible. For example, if one parent was ~ 40% Chihuahua, then you'd have an expected value of 20%, splitting the actual value of both boys. And of course it's much more complex if both parents carry Chihuahua.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

First really happy results showed no big risk markers.

Not one of the biologist members, but I will do my best! 

Let's picture the genetic information of the two parents as dishes with candy. I'm going to pretend the mother was full poodle and the father was poodle x chihuahua. 
The mother's 'dish of candy' is all red (poodle). The father's was, let's say, 25% blue (Chihuahua), 75% red poodle. 

Let's pretend you dig out half the candies from the Mom's bowl, and half the candies from the dad's bowl and combine them in another bowl to make a puppy. Yes, on average, the resulting puppy should be 12.5% Chihuahua.. but depending on how you grabbed and sorted, this won't be quite accurate. Also depending on how many 'candies' you have... 
Fewer candies means it is more likely that the probability it won't be exactly 12.5% increases as number of candies decreases. 

There's been some evidence that multigeneration doodles are often more percentage poodle than they should be based on pure random chance, because the breeders see, and select for, the 'poodley' traits like a curly coat, and keep those dogs for breeding. So yes, the percentages are just guessing based on 'perfect' math. 

It gets more complicated, of course, because we aren't actually randomly assigning genes to the new puppies, we are selecting half of a pair of chromosomes, and although there might be some crossover of genes during meiosis (making the cells with a half copy of DNA that later combine during fertilization -for a way more in depth explanation than I am qualified to give What is meiosis?), we aren't randomly assigning genes at all, really. And this process already happened with the Chihuahua containing parents' own parents! And the more generations back the crosses were, the more randomly distributed the Chihuahua genes will be. To really push my candy metaphor too far, candies were paired up, melted on the edges to fuse them, then cut apart again when you were grabbing them from the dish, meaning the candies now have bits of the other candy on them. 

So the number of candies isnt millions of genes, it's 23 pairs of chromosomes for humans, or 39 pairs for dogs. If you pull 39 candies from a dish (even forgetting that it isn't random because they are paired), you can assume the distribution won't be perfectly even.

And then there's some more muddying based on where the sample datasets for poodle and Chihuahua came from, and how big and diverse the dog sample is. It's always possible there was another breed way back, or the ancestors weren't well represented in the sample. 

Hope that helped a bit. The biologists are welcome to correct anything I got wrong, or add anything I missed.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

We are talking about what is probably an ancestor that is a great grandparent, and at that distance it will get hard to pinpoint things. Basically, they sample bits of the DNA that are associated with mutations present in specific breeds. But whether those particular markers are inherited from a parent is a 50/50 chance. They give you a percentage guess but it could be high or low. So one of them has by chance inherited more of these markers which made it easier to pinpoint breed.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Wow! That’s a lot to unpack, Rose. Fascinating results. Glad we have so many smarties here, yourself included. This genetic stuff is daunting.

I got the impression from this bit they likely _aren’t_ siblings:

*SO, WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN YOU SAY ‘AS RELATED AS HUMAN’ RELATIVES?*

_When DNA is passed through generations, it goes through a process called recombination. Recombination, in humans and canines alike, shuffles the DNA carried by parents before it is passed to offspring. But many stretches of DNA remain intact, allowing geneticists that look at hundreds of thousands of genetic markers in each animal to identify the relatedness between individuals.

But we know that dog evolution is different from human evolution in ways that can affect the amount of relatedness between close relatives.

It’s important to understand that because of the history of dogs and breeding practices, dogs are more highly inbred than humans are. Therefore, two dogs that mate today typically start off with some degree of relation, unlike humans._


Am I misunderstanding?


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Line breeding was used in pretty much every breed to set traits, and a lot of breeds come from just a few "original" dogs. These are a couple of examples:

All registered Basenji are descended from six dogs. SIX. Even with the introduction of bush dogs in the late 1980s and early 1990s to help correct a health issue, they are all still very closely related. 

Doberman Pinschers have an average genetic COI of 40+%, no matter how unrelated they are according to their pedigrees. 

For the most part, people don't tend to marry first, second, or third degree relatives (brother/sister or cousin/cousin), which means that they usually aren't related to the person the marry (or at least have children with).


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks all. So far, I'm following the explanations and analogies .

To Robin's question, I thought that I saw somewhere that the phrasing is to couch things in human terms for familiarity. I read the results as true siblings due to the explanation below.

I found this from Wisdom Panel (it may be stated somewhere on Embark too but I haven't found it in that maze). 

_A litter of puppies can have different fathers._
_Female dogs produce multiple eggs at one time—that’s why they typically give birth to litters rather than single puppies. And they remain in heat (i.e., eggs are available for fertilization in the uterus) for around 10 days.

Since dogs are polygamous, females will mate with any available male dog while in heat. As a result, puppies from the same litter may actually have different fathers.

As you might expect, *the genetic variation among puppies with different fathers is greater than that of those who share the same father. On average, siblings who share the same parents are approximately 50% genetically related. But if more than one male fathers a litter, the half-siblings puppies are only ~25% genetically similar.*

This can produce very different breed ancestry results—and dramatically different looking puppies—within a single litter.

Another factor involved in litter genetics is which exact segments of DNA each puppy inherited. While each parent is responsible for passing down 50% of their genetic makeup to a puppy, the actual composition of that genetic contribution varies between siblings. This is because of the random nature in which genes are passed down and a process known as genetic recombination. _ 

Because of the large amount of DNA shared, it almost can't be anything but same parents, same litter. 

Another tip from the human Ancestry.com is to look for how many close relatives are in common.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Confusing!

Elsewhere on the Embark site:

_If your purebred dog really does have a close relative, you’ll often see that that relative has a very high percentage of shared DNA (sometimes even 70–80%)._









Discover Your Dog’s Genetic Relatives with Embark’s Relative Finder


The Relative Finder feature shows your dog’s relatives based on how much DNA they share and gives you the ability to connect with their owners.




embarkvet.com





I guess they can’t provide a minimum? Or have chosen not to for some reason?

I’ve reached out to Embark with questions before. Maybe they could confirm that your guys really are brothers?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Okay, this might be helpful. (Or maybe not. Lol.)

I just took a quick scroll through Peggy’s Embark relatives, and although two are labeled “_As related as human full siblings or parents/children_,” only one is the correct age to be a full doggy sibling.

The other was born a year after Peggy’s dam was retired, but shares 49% of her DNA.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Purebreds may have a higher percentage due to generations of line breeding or inbreeding.

From the same article:

In general, we consider mixed-breed dogs who share about half their DNA “as related as” siblings or a parent/child pair. DNA matches less than 50% indicate extended family (although this is not always the case! Unrelated dogs can sometimes share DNA, too, if they have a similar breed mix).

Just because two dogs are “as related as” first cousins doesn’t mean that they have that exact relationship. _This is particularly true for purebred dogs, where a limited number of founder individuals created the breed, fairly recently in time. Because of this history of inbreeding, all dogs in a breed may be as related as first cousins (or even more so in some breeds), not because they are actually first cousins, but because they are third or fourth cousins several times over._

I haven't thought to wonder if parti's have been as much affected by the Midcentury Bottleneck but I'd guess less since they're not "in standard", so not bred deliberately for the show ring. They would almost surely have some genetic ties to the Wycliffe poodles, tho.

Maybe this is where THh's reference to COI might come into play? Miniatures and toys have more genetic diversity than standards. If you have a family tree for Peggy far enough back, that might show some line breeding to account for Peggy's non-sibling sibling DNA share?

I think in my boy's case that the results do prove their sibling relationship. All I really had til this was circumstantial evidence. There's been nothing that I could take as factual except what I saw with my eyes. 

We met them and their (purported) mother, father, and one sibling when they were just 8 weeks old. The mother was almost the same color as Remo but without the dark nose and eye rims. (Remo's nose has changed but eye rims remain dark.) 
The mother, LC, had clearly been recently pregnant.









She was treating the boys as hers and vice versa. 
Remo trying to sneak a sip










Neo followed Remo around like, umm, a little puppy dog . 









The three boys

















The purported father's back









Embark is being very cautious in their phrasing and I may go ahead and contact them to clarify.
I hope that their wording of "immediate family" means exactly that .


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Was the father silver? If so then wouldn't that make Nemo blue and not black? Silvers carry two copies of the fading gene and will always pass one on. Maybe he wasn't as pale as the photo appears?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Boca was definitely silver, and for about the last two years I've been thinking that Neo was turning, but I don't see enough change to feel sure. Interior light, I don't think I see it at all, neither on sunny days.
When photographed on a cloudy day he seems more so. 









partly cloudy









the back of his legs is where I first thought I saw it.








He's not skinned at those lighter areas.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I posted this response in the wrong thread, so copying it here, where it makes bit more sense in context.
The boys' results reminded me of the VGL interrelatedness testing UC Davis created, and that many great Poodle breeders are using, I think mostly with Spoos. I remember a few years ago here on PF a delighted post from Arreau. In a litter she had one little girl's results come back as a very special outlier, meaning she could help fight the bottleneck effect and offer greater diversity to the breed.

And that was compared to her littermates. So that one girlie somehow reached back in history and grabbed some genes that had not been around much in a while. I guess in a way, at least. I'm no scientist and certainly not a geneticist, but I've always remembered Cherie's happy post.


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

'Miniatures and toys have more genetic diversity than standards.'
Why would that be so?

Gosh a very interesting post.

Poppy came with a KC registration, which shows non of the 'usual' genetic problems in her heritage.
The only thing I wonder about it her size.
Every mini poo we have met are nearly a 1/4 ( rough guesstimate), larger than her.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The Popster said:


> 'Miniatures and toys have more genetic diversity than standards.'
> Why would that be so?


Look into the Midcentury Bottleneck and you'll see. This effect hasn't happened in toys or miniatures, or nowhere to the extent.

"Last century, there were two very popular, successful Standard Poodle kennels, one in Canada on the west coast (Wycliffe) and one in the US on the east coast (Bel Tor.) They both got their foundation dogs from similar sources in Europe and they competed fiercely for dominance in the breed. Both produced beautiful dogs. The Canadian breeder followed the recommendations of scientists at the time and inbred significantly on her foundation stock. The American breeder did some of this as well, though not so severely. The Canadian breeder’s dogs eventually won the most in the ring, and so were bought and bred and exported the most and became dominant in the breed, being bred into every line to improve conformation. The American breeder’s dogs remained popular as well, but eventually became less well known and only dominated pet lines.
Both kennels went back to 10 dogs born between 1948 and 1953. We in the breed call that the Mid Century Bottleneck or MCB. Fast forward nearly 70 years later and there are no Standard Poodles left on earth without some ancestry attributable to the MCB. Most dogs owe at least 50% of their ancestry to the MCB, and many dogs, especially show lines, owe much more. Some unusual lines only have a small amount of influence from the MCB, but these tend to be quite obscure."

"Although Standard Poodles still possess considerable total diversity, 70 % of this diversity resides in only 30 %."



The Popster said:


> Every mini poo we have met are nearly a 1/4 ( rough guesstimate), larger than her.


Do you have a current measurement of her height at the shoulder?

A possible reason is breeding practices occasionally implemented by breeders using intervarieties, mpoo and spoo or tpoo and mpoo, for specific and deliberate reasons to breed away from a weak trait or breed to a strong one.
If this link works, it's the only first-ish hand accounts I've seen to describe some of the earlier kennel's efforts.
Andress (archive.org)


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Look into the Midcentury Bottleneck and you'll see. This effect hasn't happened in toys or miniatures, or nowhere to the extent.
> 
> "Last century, there were two very popular, successful Standard Poodle kennels, one in Canada on the west coast (Wycliffe) and one in the US on the east coast (Bel Tor.) They both got their foundation dogs from similar sources in Europe and they competed fiercely for dominance in the breed. Both produced beautiful dogs. The Canadian breeder followed the recommendations of scientists at the time and inbred significantly on her foundation stock. The American breeder did some of this as well, though not so severely. The Canadian breeder’s dogs eventually won the most in the ring, and so were bought and bred and exported the most and became dominant in the breed, being bred into every line to improve conformation. The American breeder’s dogs remained popular as well, but eventually became less well known and only dominated pet lines.
> Both kennels went back to 10 dogs born between 1948 and 1953. We in the breed call that the Mid Century Bottleneck or MCB. Fast forward nearly 70 years later and there are no Standard Poodles left on earth without some ancestry attributable to the MCB. Most dogs owe at least 50% of their ancestry to the MCB, and many dogs, especially show lines, owe much more. Some unusual lines only have a small amount of influence from the MCB, but these tend to be quite obscure."
> ...


Great, just been off on an interesting journey following the link.
Poppy asleep at the moment, going to have a measure later.
Ended up looking at Pipercroft Kennel as know the area.
Old images, really cool.


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Look into the Midcentury Bottleneck and you'll see. This effect hasn't happened in toys or miniatures, or nowhere to the extent.
> 
> "Last century, there were two very popular, successful Standard Poodle kennels, one in Canada on the west coast (Wycliffe) and one in the US on the east coast (Bel Tor.) They both got their foundation dogs from similar sources in Europe and they competed fiercely for dominance in the breed. Both produced beautiful dogs. The Canadian breeder followed the recommendations of scientists at the time and inbred significantly on her foundation stock. The American breeder did some of this as well, though not so severely. The Canadian breeder’s dogs eventually won the most in the ring, and so were bought and bred and exported the most and became dominant in the breed, being bred into every line to improve conformation. The American breeder’s dogs remained popular as well, but eventually became less well known and only dominated pet lines.
> Both kennels went back to 10 dogs born between 1948 and 1953. We in the breed call that the Mid Century Bottleneck or MCB. Fast forward nearly 70 years later and there are no Standard Poodles left on earth without some ancestry attributable to the MCB. Most dogs owe at least 50% of their ancestry to the MCB, and many dogs, especially show lines, owe much more. Some unusual lines only have a small amount of influence from the MCB, but these tend to be quite obscure."
> ...


15 inches.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

That puts her at the tiptop of the limit for miniatures per your breed standard. If the others you see are truly larger, they are what we in the US call oversize.

Different registries define whether the dog is recategorized strictly by height, or whether they remain in the variety they were born of. This becomes confusing with intervariety breedings. My boys outgrew their toy sire and mpoo dam so we call them miniatures because it's easier than trying to explain to non-poodle people . Although standards start at over 15" it's unlikely to see a standard much under 20" anywhere.
The FCI has a fourth variety from approx 14" to approx 18".

_SIZE AND WEIGHT: The sexual dimorphism must be clearly visible in all varieties. 
Standard Poodles: Over 45 cm up to 60 cm with a tolerance of +2 cm. The Standard Poodle must be the enlarged and developed replica of the Medium Poodle of which it retains the same characteristics. 
Medium Poodles: Over 35 cm up to 45 cm. 
Miniature Poodles: Over 28 cm up to 35 cm. The Miniature Poodle must display the appearance of a reduced Medium Poodle, retaining as much as possible the same proportions and without presenting any sign of dwarfism. 
Toy Poodles: Over 24 cm (with a tolerance of -1cm) up to 28 cm (sought after ideal: 25 cm). The Toy Poodle maintains, in its ensemble, the aspect of a Miniature Poodle and the same general proportions complying with all the points of the standard. 
Any sign of dwarfism is excluded; only the external occipital protuberance may be less pronounced. 
FAULTS: Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault_


*Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodle Size Standards
for Major International Kennel Clubs*

​


StandardMiniature Toy * American
Kennel Club*over 38 cm
(over 15 inches)25-38 cm
(10-15 inches)under 25 cm
(under 10 inches)* Canadian
Kennel Club*over 38 cm
(over 15 inches)25-38 cm
(10-15 inches)under 25 cm
(under 10 inches)*United
Kennel Club*over 38 cm
(over 15 inches)25-38 cm
(10-15 inches)under 25 cm
(under 10 inches)T*he Kennel
Club (UK)*over 38 cm
(over 15 inches)28-38 cm
(11-15 inches)under 28 cm
(under 11 inches)*Australian
Nat'l Kennel
Council*38 cm (15 inches)
and over28-38 cm
(11-15 inches)under 28 cm
(under 11 inches)*New Zealand
Kennel Club*38 cm (15 inches)
and over28-38 cm
(11-15 inches)under 28 cm
(under 11 inches)*Federation
Cynologique
Internationale*45-60 cm
(18-24 inches)28-35 cm
(11-14 inches)24-28 cm
(9.4-11.0 inches)


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

That is ‘pleasing’ , I don’t know why, but it just is.
Poppy IS a Mini Poo as per ‘regulations’.
😀
Was surprised when Poppy went to visiot her mother that she was bigger than her. So guessing it was do do with the dog she was mated with.
I know the dog was a fine looking chap , seen pictures.
Gosh interesting stuff.
Though whatever the ‘Regs’ say , Poppy is lovely regardless, especially in nature / charater!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The Popster said:


> guessing it was do do with the dog she was mated with.


Could be that, could be genes further back, could be the food 









And, Poppy is a lamb


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

That's so nice ... though presently she is less of a lamb, more of a sex pest!
Really taken us by surprise!
I know your long relationship and experience of Poodles, so always keen on your opinion.
I would be interested in what your eye tells you about her 'look' ?
Curious.
We did once call out an emergency home visit vet, ( removal of tick ), it turned out the vet was a Poodle breeder who shows at Crufts.
She may have simply been just being nice, but she did remark on Poppy being a very nice specimen.
Now that might be different to a good example of a Poodle, simply a nice dog.
She even got her phone out and asked if she could take a couple of pictures of Poppy.

Is her nose pointy enough, eyes oval enough, too long in the back, a good rear end...?


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## kuriooo (Feb 17, 2010)

I loved that little history lesson on the MidCentury Bottleneck, so fascinating!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The Popster said:


> That's so nice ... though presently she is less of a lamb, more of a sex pest!
> Really taken us by surprise!
> I know your long relationship and experience of Poodles, so always keen on your opinion.
> I would be interested in what your eye tells you about her 'look' ?
> ...


Your confidence in my opinion is very kind but I must be honest and say that I'm not the right person to offer an assessment. I have no experience in that side of the fancy. I know that the breed standards from different countries and clubs might also have some variance from the US, so that might need to be taken into account.

We do have members who breed and/or show, and one I know for sure who has judged at AKC shows. Their eye and experience will give you better info than I can. Until someone drops by, I'd trust the vet/breeder's opinion. In the best possible way, a breeder, especially one who shows, is more likely to be straightforward in any comments. It's what they're used to .


The Popster said:


> though presently she is less of a lamb, more of a sex pest!


That just makes me laugh! What in the world is the girl doing to make you say that?!?


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Your confidence in my opinion is very kind but I must be honest and say that I'm not the right person to offer an assessment. I have no experience in that side of the fancy. I know that the breed standards from different countries and clubs might also have some variance from the US, so that might need to be taken into account.
> 
> We do have members who breed and/or show, and one I know for sure who has judged at AKC shows. Their eye and experience will give you better info than I can. Until someone drops by, I'd trust the vet/breeder's opinion. In the best possible way, a breeder, especially one who shows, is more likely to be straightforward in any comments. It's what they're used to .
> 
> That just makes me laugh! What in the world is the girl doing to make you say that?!?


She has been 'leg /slipper' humping.
Not something we expected from a bitch.
Of course our old dog Kipper, like dogs do, used to have 'sexy time'.
I posted this elesewhere, and consensus is that she might be having post season issues.
We are discouraging, and are happy to know this is not unusual for a bitch.


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Your confidence in my opinion is very kind but I must be honest and say that I'm not the right person to offer an assessment. I have no experience in that side of the fancy. I know that the breed standards from different countries and clubs might also have some variance from the US, so that might need to be taken into account.
> 
> We do have members who breed and/or show, and one I know for sure who has judged at AKC shows. Their eye and experience will give you better info than I can. Until someone drops by, I'd trust the vet/breeder's opinion. In the best possible way, a breeder, especially one who shows, is more likely to be straightforward in any comments. It's what they're used to .
> 
> That just makes me laugh! What in the world is the girl doing to make you say that?!?


Ok, I'm just curious as to Poppy's credentials.
It's more than enough to admire her ourselves, and the KC heritage, the good breeder ( her abilities, advice, aftercare ), the wonderful comments from other people.
But as my Poodle experience continues, I can't help wondering how good a specimen she is.
No intention to breed from her, we simply would not be able to part with her puppies, and don't really fancy becoming a Poodle shepard.
Mind you one thing is for sure, looks are important, but in the normal world I think the character / personality of a dog is the most important thing.
10 out 0f 10 for Poppy.
Hmmmm... that's not to say I will probably mark her down at some point later today!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

My story in this thread 😉








Humping and onset of puberty?


Hi, so I put this here because its both a behaviour question and a health one. A few weeks ago Evra started humping. At first she directed this at my arm but I handled it by redirecting her on to a toy. She likes to hump her bunny now, does it in the evening usually. It doesnt really bother us...




www.poodleforum.com


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