# The quest for nutrition



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

There is so much controversy around canine and human nutrition, it makes my head spin. What is the best diet? Protein good? Bad? What's up with carbs? Should dogs have fats of any kind? Is kibble really acceptable? What is food, even? Is it just sustenance? Is it what fills this void we call 'hunger'? Are we truly aware of anything in the universe, really... 
Ahem.
So. I've decided to do an in-depth search into what makes an actual good, balanced diet for my dogs. An experiment of sorts. In this experiment, I will first find all the information necessary to make a general conclusion on what makes a good diet, and then try to figure out some diets based off of that. Obviously, I'm not a scientist or a nutrition expert, and therefore encourage various levels of input from others. But there are rules I would like to uphold in this research. Namely, the type of resources used.

What IS a Good Resource
Studies by universities
Blogs/Youtube videos by a nutritionist
Non-biased articles
Breaking news announcing the conclusive evidence of a multitude of studies
Experiences that can be tied to a specific type of food (i.e., my dog eats a carrot every morning and now has laser vision)
Experiences that brought about an obvious change in the dog or has kept the dog much healthier/much less healthier than other, similar dogs (my dog was eating my shoes for breakfast, and was generally unhealthy, but as soon as I switched him to diet X that is high in nutrient Y, he does much better! His cousin, on the other hand, eats the same food my dog used to, and has the same problems my dog did.)

What will NOT be considered a Good Resource
Blogs/Youtube videos not written by a nutritionist 
Articles pointing fingers and cherry-picking information, especially for the purpose of fear-mongering
Studies that are too small to be effective or have been obviously influenced by a particular party
Breaking news articles announcing a single new study (too soon to declare effects of research, also not yet repeated by peers)
Studies on humans that assume the exact same for dogs (we are completely different animals requiring different volumes of different types of nutrition)
Second-hand experiences (i.e., a friend's friend's dog ate a piece of lettuce and began to dance ballet)
General conclusions based off of diet (does my terrier run circles around my house in the morning because I feed him my lost hopes and dreams, or is it because he's just a hyper guy in general?)


My hypothesis, based on research seen thus far:
A diet high in protein and 'healthy fats', and also has 'healthy carbs', are going to be the best for dogs. Raw, _*nutritionist-balanced* _diets are likely the best overall, but needs more research to determine/support if it is. Home-cooked, _*nutritionist-balanced *_are likely second-best, and also needs research. Third would be whole food, prepared diets like Freshpet's steamed stuff, and fourth would be breed-specific diets based on the dog's activity levels. I also assume that natural, whole ingredients are the best, and that the more animal protein in a specific food, the better.

This hypothesis will change and be added to over time as I gather more information.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Adding some studies I found already and an article. It's going to take some time and maybe a few cups of tea to go through all of them. 😬 
Geometric analysis of macronutrient selection in breeds of the domestic dog, Canis lupus familiaris
A high protein high fibre diet improves weight loss in obese dogs
Special topic: The association between pulse ingredients and canine dilated cardiomyopathy: addressing the knowledge gaps before establishing causation 1
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jpn.12794
Effect of dietary protein intake on the body composition and metabolic parameters of neutered dogs
Pet food safety: dietary protein - PubMed
Pondering Pet Protein: How much protein should my pet get?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

This seems like a huge undertaking, though an admirable one. I will add that one thing that really complicates things is that our understanding of "necessary" nutrients for dogs is often built on synthetic nutrients which have different bio availability than those in whole raw foods. This is why there's quite a clash even between raw-feeding groups on whether certain supplements are needed. Kibbles generally have added synthetic nutrients to meet the RNC and AAFCO standards, but these standards are in turn created with kibbles and synthetic supplements in mind. Which is just far different than feeding a raw diet. So the nutritionists in the raw group I belong to don't always believe in striving to exactly match these specific values. In a couple cases I've questioned them when I'm not sure about Misha's diet and their explanations are always very in depth.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I've gone through the top two studies. The first one is about seeing if dogs can self-regulate their macronutrient intake. It seems they can, and based off of the study, it looks like they would like a diet high in protein across multiple breeds, with 25%-35% of the total energy composed of protein. To put that into perspective, the average American eats about 16% of their diet as protein every day (although this number should be higher). Overall, this study seems to be pretty through, even comparing the findings to other studies in cats.
The second study has only a short paragraph summarizing its findings. I'll try to find the whole study, but for now it seems to support high protein benefiting dog's health, as the results found that a high-protein-high-fiber diet supports weight loss. Not sure how legitimate this study is, so I'll take it with a grain of salt until I can look further into it.
@Raindrops, that's interesting. I'll have to see if I can find any studies on raw diets to support any findings I get from studies using kibble/mixed diets. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but I'll try my hardest.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

After thinking about the first study I mentioned, I’m wondering if it’s the quality of the protein that is a determining factor in how much the dogs ate.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't remember if you're familiar with WSAVA (World Small Animal Veterinary Association) as a resource. Home | WSAVA
then to Global Nutrition Guidelines | WSAVA
a few layers in, focus here on pet owners nutrition information:


https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Savvy-Dog-Owner-s-Guide-to-Nutrition-on-the-Internet.pdf



There may be something of use or interest for your quest.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I don't remember if you're familiar with WSAVA (World Small Animal Veterinary Association) as a resource. Home | WSAVA
> then to Global Nutrition Guidelines | WSAVA
> a few layers in, focus here on pet owners nutrition information:
> 
> ...


I am not too familiar! Thanks, Rose! I see multiple things already!


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I've gone through this study today. It's a repeat of the macronutrient study with different dogs and seems to support it, confirming that the dogs will choose to eat around 30% protein as a part of their diet, with lamb green tripe used to manipulate the protein content. The experiment only spanned 10 days, however, and could use a longer study. In addition, this study only used Harrier Hounds, not diverse in breeds at all. And just because the dogs choose to eat 30% protein does not mean that that is the best for their health. However, overall, the results were the same, which is encouraging.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm starting to go thru your links and was reminded of another general resource, Google Scholar. I started with the search term "dog diet" but haven't got any further yet. 





Google Scholar







scholar.google.com


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm starting to go thru your links and was reminded of another general resource, Google Scholar. I started with the search term "dog diet" but haven't got any further yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


😲 I’m a college student! I’m told over and over to use this! Why did I not think of this! Thanks again, Rose!


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Took a break for a little bit. Calculus is the worst, and my head spins after class...

I went through this study today, and, um, it's kinda sketchy in how the dogs were kept... But it does show that too little protein is very, very bad. And, you know, maybe feed your dog a diet appropriate for its species, and not carrots, lard, and sugar?

And this study! This study is long! It spans 4 years! It also shows that higher protein diets (in dogs) are not linked, in general, to kidney failure (which is a general concern, as it is linked to kidney failure in rats and humans), and in fact may improve renal functions. 

This study shows that neutered dogs fed a high protein diet gain a lower level of fat.

This article states that older dogs will need a higher level of protein intake, which makes sense, as their bodies cannot absorb nutrients as effectively.

Finally, there is this article, which pulls several studies together into a summary.

All in all, I feel comfortable feeding my dogs a diet that is at the least 30% protein. HOWEVER, if one of them had some kind of kidney disease, I would put them on a vet-recommended low-protein diet, as we do not know for sure if high protein does not adversely effect said disease. 

Onto carbs, I guess.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Hmmm, or maybe not. I still haven't fully looked into older dogs and high protein, or puppies, or, or, or... 

I see a rabbit! Maybe I'll chase it!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Been there, probably always gonna do that lol🎩🐇


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Me too! My vet cheerfully calls it "throwing some science at the problem", and leaves me to it, gently steering where necessary.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Floof, can you check my interpretation of the report Dogtor posted recently? It looks like fat in raw diets doesn't have the same effect on blood triglycerides as fat in kibble. The levels remain in a healthy range, despite higher fat content. The mechanism isn't clear and isn't suggested in the paper. But perhaps there's a difference in protein in raw diets versus protein in kibble diets as well.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Been there, probably always gonna do that lol🎩🐇
> View attachment 469642





fjm said:


> Me too! My vet cheerfully calls it "throwing some science at the problem", and leaves me to it, gently steering where necessary.


Haha, glad I’m not the only one.


Liz said:


> Floof, can you check my interpretation of the report Dogtor posted recently? It looks like fat in raw diets doesn't have the same effect on blood triglycerides as fat in kibble. The levels remain in a healthy range, despite higher fat content. The mechanism isn't clear and isn't suggested in the paper. But perhaps there's a difference in protein in raw diets versus protein in kibble diets as well.


Sure! It might take me a day or two to fully go through it, as I have a calc quiz tonight (ugh) and a chemistry exam on Friday (double ugh). But I’ll see what I can find!


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Well, exam week is almost over (and went out with a BANG, as the website crashed while our class was taking the exam), so I can spare a little more time to look at things. I'll start on that report first.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

FloofyPoodle said:


> ... I went through this study today, and, um, it's kinda sketchy in how the dogs were kept... But it does show that too little protein is very, very bad. And, you know, maybe feed your dog a diet appropriate for its species, and not carrots, lard, and sugar?
> 
> And this study! This study is long! It spans 4 years! It also shows that higher protein diets (in dogs) are not linked, in general, to kidney failure (which is a general concern, as it is linked to kidney failure in rats and humans), and in fact may improve renal functions.
> 
> ...


These are a nice group of links you put together for us, thank you! They confirm what I what I always thought, which is that dogs do best when eating a diet containing some daily portions of unprocessed poultry and meat etc. Mine get some baked chicken daily, or sometimes I'll split a homemade hamburger between them, and daily Royal Canine kibble. When I run out of that, I switch to another brand to keep it interesting for them.

A kibble-only diet, even by "the best", just never felt right for an animal that's a carnivore, sort of like if we ate _only _nutritious cereals. However, I'll add that science shows dogs need it all balanced very carefully, so the thinking in some camps is that meat only could deprive them of other nutrients they need.

FYI, there's a highly recommended site, *DogFoodAdvisor.com*, which researches and reviews dog food brands and stays up to date on dog food recalls.


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## My Girl Elvis (Sep 14, 2020)

Sounds like actual meat in addition to high protein kibble is the best option.... my spoo is going to force me to use an actual kitchen.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Just dropping this in here real quick--I'll get to those raw studies eventually--





An important thing to note is that dogs can't really make vitamin D with the sun through their skin, so any vitamin D they get has to be from their diet.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Might as well drop this in here too while I'm at it. Good advice in general for both canine and human foods:


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Came across this article today: Diet Shaped Dog Domestication

(Abstract of study here: The genomic signature of dog domestication reveals adaptation to a starch-rich diet)

I think it makes sense, and I do like how it uses genes to determine what the dog can and can't process instead of solely relying on health of the dog, which can be relative to the person examining.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

That made a splash when it was first published. A lot of people misinterpreted it to mean that dogs _must_ eat carbs, and others doubled down on dogs _can_ digest some carbs but _thrive_ on meat. There's more work to be done. If it's something that interests you, it might be worth looking into the lab/authors and seeing what they've published since.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Liz said:


> That made a splash when it was first published. A lot of people misinterpreted it to mean that dogs _must_ eat carbs, and others doubled down on dogs _can_ digest some carbs but _thrive_ on meat. There's more work to be done. If it's something that interests you, it might be worth looking into the lab/authors and seeing what they've published since.


Yes the latter is my take on it. Research suggests to me that dogs are not fully adapted to a starchy diet, though they have adapted to be able to tolerate starches. Certainly they are not obligate starch consumers. Dogs can grow and reproduce and are healthy on diets completely devoid of starch or vegetable matter... so I wouldn't say they have exactly moved away from the wolf diet as an ideal. But they are certainly more flexible than wolves are.


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## VanessaC (Feb 24, 2020)

Here’s a link to another recent study into the topic. Though the sample size is small, I find their results interesting. They seem to suggest that diet can play a role on gene expression and that raw diets seem to be protective for inflammation and allergies. 









Dry food or raw? Diet affects skin gene expression in both healthy and atopic dogs


Differences in skin gene expression were observed between healthy and atopic Staffordshire Bull Terriers as well as between dogs that ate either dry food or raw food. Raw food appeared to activate the skin's immune system as well as the expression of genes that increase antioxidant production or...



www.sciencedaily.com


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