# Cream color question



## Liafast

I have been trying to research the 'cream' color. I believe that cream is a dilute color. If that is so, is cream a dilute of apricot? Is Apricot a dilute of red? Following that train of thought does that mean cream is the absolute dilute of red?
Are all the dilutes such as silver, blues, creams, apricots and silver beiges dilutes or are they true colors? What defines a dilute (besides DNA color test). Is the dog staying the same color from birth to old age indicate lack of dilute?
I have noticed that the colors are getting so 'muddied' up that almost all spoos have the dilute gene in them which will make getting a puppy that will stay black, red or brown very hard. 
I have read the color information on Arpeggio's website and found it very interesting but would love to hear other peoples thoughts.


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## Carley's Mom

And is a "bad black" the same as a " blue" ?


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## outwest

I agree that colors are getting muddled and it is hard to find a nonfading black, for example. The best way to do that is choose a pup from nonfading blacks.  I am getting a new puppy from a dam that has not faded (she is over 6) and a black sire. The black sires father HAS faded, but the sire himself is 9 years old and was genetically color tested black only. Now, dam carries red/apricot (her sire was red and mom a nonfading black - red was used to increase diversity). The chances of getting a nonfading black from this litter is pretty good, but still not guaranteed because sire's sire, although gorgeous, has faded and dams sire was a Palmares red (as far as I know, they fade). My new puppy could only carry black genes OR could carry a red and a black gene (wish I could know he he he). 

As far as cream, apricot and red go: They are said to be dilutes of each other, but my current poodle is registered cream and was greyish/tan when I got her (rather an odd color). Instead of fading to a creamy white color she darkened continually. Her breeder is now saying I should change her registration to apricot because she is a pretty apricot at 17 months old. Her nose has gone from black to black/brown. Her two cream littermates have gone white and their noses are still black. The only difference between her and her cream littermates is she had this odd grey tone as a little pup that her littermates did not have (one reason I think she wasn't chosen yet when I got her). 

Does this mean mine doesn't have the fading gene? What about the nose? I don't know, but it is interesting enough for me to be holding off on spaying her for now and doing testing on her. If she is a dilute color, than she would carry a fading gene. Since she darkened and changed hue inSTEAD of lightening, how can she carry a 'fading gene'?

White is not a dilute of cream. Cream is cream and white is white. It is pretty hard to find a white that in not a faded cream, though. My sister in laws poodle is white now. He started off with orangey ears and is registered cream. 

I always think of blue as an overall even color of steel gray. I think of faded black as salt and pepper or a coat with variations in it. A true blue is a gorgeous color, but most of the blues you see are really faded blacks and people call them blue. 

Color discussions are fun!


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## Liafast

My understanding is blue and bad black are different, I think the "bad black" has a lot of other colors intermingled but I am not sure of that. A frienf of mine bred her blue to a red/apricott and several of the cream pups have darkened to apricot. She read somewhere that the pups from a blue tend to daken instead of lighten. Yes, I love talking colors.

Another thought, when they DNA for color, and the DNA tests state the only color the dog can prodduce is black and red, does that also include the dilutes of black and red. That would mean the olny color that dog can't produce is brown.

Back to the red, apricott, cream issue. I thought the red was brought in from breeding up the mini poodles. If cream is the absoluted dilute of red wasn't it already in the spoo because the cream has been in the spoos for a long.


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## starpoodle

I'm also interested in poodle colors though I know little to nothing about them. In my searches I came across a poodle that truly looks blue to my untrained eye.

CH. Calaes Belle of XIV Street
Home

I'm also interested in the differences between cream and white.


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## roulette

Outwest, cream does not fade to white, they are two distinct colors. Here is a link to help explain:
POODLE COAT COLORS: WHITE & CREAM

As a matter of fact, there is lots of info on color categories and color breeding, very interesting


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## CharismaticMillie

IA - white and cream are entirely different. But I also agree with Outwest that many creams do fade to a nearly white color. Though still, put a "faded to nearly white" cream next to an ice white and the difference is glaring. I've seen creams next to my white dog and then i understood. He is my first white and just so happens to be as white as they come!

Similarly, I've seen some supposed "ice white" poodles next to my white boy an the difference is striking. He is so white I actually had someone at PCA tell me "he had a blue hue" and they could tell I use a blue-ing shampoo. I laughed. If only she knew. My boy is never ever bathed in blue-ing shampoos my handler would be irate if I did. . And handler did get a kick out of the story. My boy is shown without wigs not due to any aversion of mine but due to the fact that the handler has none white enough!

So no, white isn't just a dilute of cream. My 2 cents! 

ETA: another way to tell cream from white that has been explained to me is that creams often have a subtle darker stripe down their back.

And re: blue vs. bad black: I grew up with a "bad black.". In photos and even in person he did look blue, but the color was the result of light hairs mixed in his coat rather than the overall clearing of solid color that a true blue has. He did not clear like a blue and was not a blue. His background was your usual predominately black and white pedigree (just as my mom's current holding black has.)

Then there is my cafe girl. She is clearly a dilute as she was born medium/dark brown and quickly faded to a beige/nude color in less than 2 yrs. Her color is not the result of intermingled light hairs but actual clearing of the coat from the root.

Color is interesting!


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## starpoodle

I'm currently considering both cream and white puppies. Is it preferable to seek a white from a white to black breeding, or one where both parents are white? Would pigment be as black with a white to white breeding, or does it depend mostly on the lines?


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## starpoodle

Didn't mean to hijack this thread. :/ Thank you, Liafest.


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## Liafast

You didn't hijack my thread...love this topic so much to learn


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## CharismaticMillie

starpoodle said:


> I'm currently considering both cream and white puppies. Is it preferable to seek a white from a white to black breeding, or one where both parents are white? Would pigment be as black with a white to white breeding, or does it depend mostly on the lines?


I am so new to all of this I don't know the answer. But if you really want an ice white your best bet is a line known for producing such. I had no clue when I got my boy, but found out later that his sire (black) is known for producing extremely bright whites. My boy's dam is bright bright white with inky black pigment in her adult years, so it makes sense that I got what I got. 

Color was in no way a priority for me (I wanted black or brown!) but everything else was right so a white boy I got. And wow is white stunning.


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## Anntig

I've been told by an 'expert' who specialised in breeding whites, that it is essential to breed back to black every couple of generations or you lose the dark pigment. So I wouldn't be going for a breeder who breeds only white.
As for the cream/white I have several I've groomed since puppyhood, the young creams all tend to have random brown hairs throughout their coats, the whites have had colour only on their tk and ears, and yes every cream I do has a stripe down the back although it is harder to see in the older ones.

Colour is fascinating I've got a young girl coming to me who's owner was told she was silver, she had no hint of anything but black at her first groom then she developed a reddish tone now at ten months she looks like a brown with white hairs mixed in, I'm guessing she'll go sable or blue rather than silver, but it's interesting to see the progression.


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## outwest

white:
CM, I totally agree. White is white like you say. Cream often will fade to white so as to be indistinct from white until you put them next to a true white like your boy. My sister in laws cream poodle who faded to white is a bright creamy white. He does have points as black as black can be plus he has black toenails! People ask her why she paints his toenails black, they are so striking. Still, if placed next to your boy, I bet he suddenly looks cream. 

cream:
The color page from arpeggio that was posted earlier to show the difference between cream and white is showing a cream dog born with the wrong pigment!!! Why did they do that since they are using the site for teaching?

points on colors:
As far as pigment: I think it is hard to get holding black points on an apricot dog. I know there are a few and have seen a handful of champion apricots that held their black. I wonder if the reason the poodle standard allows apricots to have brownish points (not a fault, although not preferred) and doesn't allow cream or white to have a brownish nose (black only), it must be something about the apricot color specifically. Incorrect pigment, my understanding anyway, is something they have from the beginning (like the cream example on the arpeggio site), not something that develops. 

AKC standard for color:
"Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."

reds:
Why aren't reds in the standard? Do they call them apricot? I see them being shown in AKC. Also, with apricots being more prevalent in standard poodles than they used to be, I wonder if the Poodle Club will change the color guide?

My apricot:
My apricot started out solid black nosed and it is now dark blackish brown, but does have black eye rims, very dark (gosh, black really) eyes and black lips. I told her breeder a month or so ago that maybe we should not breed her because her nose had gone brownish. She hadn't seen her in months and months. I took her there last weekend. She saw her, realized she was apricot and said with an apricot all you need to do is make sure to breed to a holding black pigment to correct those points. Since she was born with black nose, held it for a year, started to lose it, got it back and lost it again, she would not throw brown nosed apricots if bred to a black nosed dog. It was a matter of holding on to the black, not correcting incorrect pigment. I should dig up a recent picture of her to show you. 

blue:
The best of breed at the last AKC show I attended was a blue (from Desert Reef). Dang, she was a beautiful dark steel gray, very even color. The prettiest blue I have seen.

random thoughts:
Spoowhisperer has a cream and a white from the same litter in her signature standing next to each other. The two colors are clear there. She also has an apricot girl who had a beautiful litter of 13 (!) puppies. You can look at her coloring in her posts in the pictures section.

I believe white is a separate color from cream, apricot and red. I think cream, apricot and red are on a spectrum.


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## Liafast

I wonder if the fact they allow liver noses on apricot is because the color is close to brown. I have seen some browns with a reddish hue and they are falling back on the brown breed standard. I know apricots and creams get 'winter nose' which is caused by a lack of sunshine in some dogs. I have a red (OK she is apricot but I like to call her red) and a cream and they both have wonderful black noses. BTW they don't have any close brown in their lines.


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## Liafast

The breed standard for the poodle was accepted.....
Approved August 14, 1984
Reformatted March 27, 1990
There weren't many reds showing at this time.


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## outwest

It's 22 years old. That's crazy. I wonder if they are going to change it and allow partis, too? Canada does say 'any solid color' although the AKC doesn't.


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## Liafast

This is what the UKC says about colors in the spoo.....
COLOR
Acceptable colors for the Standard Poodle are apricot, black, blue, cream, gray, silver, white, red, silver beige and all shades of brown, including café-au-lait. Dogs whose coats are of the brown shades may have dark amber eyes; liver noses, eye rims and lips; and dark nails. Dogs with apricot coat color may have this combination of eye, pigment and nail color as well but it is not desirable. All others must have very dark eyes; black noses, eye rims and lips; and black or self-colored nails. Coat color is solid and even. Clear colors are preferred but natural variations in the shading of the coat are not to be considered a fault.
Disqualification: Any color other than described above; albinism.

As near as I can tell the apricots are allow to have to have liver noses and light eyes and the reds must have black....


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## CharismaticMillie

Liafast said:


> I wonder if the fact they allow liver noses on apricot is because the color is close to brown. I have seen some browns with a reddish hue and they are falling back on the brown breed standard. I know apricots and creams get 'winter nose' which is caused by a lack of sunshine in some dogs. I have a red (OK she is apricot but I like to call her red) and a cream and they both have wonderful black noses. BTW they don't have any close brown in their lines.


If a red is born with black pigment/nose they are genetically on the spectrum of black. If a red is born with brown/liver pigment they lack what is necessary (unscientific, my apologies) to produce any black pigment and are genetically "brown" instead.

Snow nose/fading pigment are entirely different from being born without the capacity to produce black pigment (ie - liver pigmented poodles - all brown spectrum, and some cream, apricot or red.)
The reddish hue on a brown is not, in my understanding, due to any relation to the red color.


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## zyrcona

outwest said:


> My new puppy could only carry black genes OR could carry a red and a black gene (wish I could know he he he).


You can. Ask the breeder if you can take a mouth swab from your puppy and order a genetics test for the E locus. If the puppy is EE, it can produce black only. If it is Ee, it can produce ee colours (although it won't tell you which ee colour, so it could be anything ranging from ice white to Irish Setter red).


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