# Tooth problem



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

This is called Base Canine Narrow and it is common in some lines of Poodles (I think we should work to breed away from this, but that is another story).

My opinion. These baby teeth are not that much of an issue even though they look nasty going up into the gums. I have found that the puppies eat and manage just fine. I'm not sure why your vet thinks that the baby canine will not fall out and make room for the adult tooth.

All that said, it is IMPERATIVE that you work on the adult canines as they come in to get them to spread and move to the outside of the gums. If the adult canines go up into the gums, you will have a whole world of trouble and you may need orthodontic work. However, the good news is that once in correct place, the adult cannines will in fact hold things together and pull the jaw into the right place.

I have had excellent luck manually moving emerging adult canines that look like they are going to be narrow. With my thumbs, I gently press outward on the inside of the canines multiple times a day and encourage them to flare. Once they pop over the edge of the gum, they will stay in place.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

Poodlelover, I KNOW exactly how you feel. I had it happen to me. After paying $1000 and driving a few hours and getting home and inspecting every square inch of the puppy, I discovered the crooked tooth. My breeder brushed it off, I kept calling, sending photos, went to dental specialists and everything. It did NOT straighten out with adult teeth. However it causes no problems whatsoever. There is not a hole (or a pocket that collects food and bacteria) Her teeth and pure white and she is 9 years. But to me it was a huge flaw. I have always been bugged by it. She had a recent litter and one male puppy had it too. I showed it to the people who came to buy him. I also showed him what his mothers mouth is like. I didn't hide it. The puppy was $300, for a pet which is a heck of a lot different that representing your dogs as super high quality, blah blah blah.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

poodlelover, My breeder recommended the same thing as Carol. Use your thumbs and give just a small amount of pressure(your thumbs should not turn white at the pressure point) do this about 3 times daily for a bit more than a minute.

In this situation the adult tooth can come in a bit behind the baby tooth, but the baby tooth should still fall out quickly and make room for the other. Is there something else going on that makes your Vet think it wouldn't?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well see this is where the breeder should have told you this ahead of time so that you could have decided if you wanted to deal with it or not when choosing from a litter. I think that if you handle your pups enough and have had them to the vet, they knew it was there and like that. Sorry you are stuck having to deal with it. I can say that I knew that Harry had this issue and in fact his teeth did correct themselves when the adult teeth came in but I know it doesn't always happen that way.


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## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

Thanks everyone, I am pushing the tooth a few times a day. I hope it works. 
My vet thinks that the permanent tooth will grow on the inside of the baby tooth and grow into the Palate too. 
My breeder told me about the tooth after I paid and signed the papers and was on the way out the door. I did not know there was a hole in the palate. 
I just wanted to get home with her. 
I am waiting to here back from her breeder and I can only go in a few weeks, I work every day so I have to go on a Saturday and I am working the next two Saturdays.
I hope it corrects itself. 
I will let you know what happens.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

poodlelover said:


> Thanks everyone, I am pushing the tooth a few times a day. I hope it works.


Pushing on the baby tooth will not do much because the tooth has created a hole in the roof of the mouth and that hole tends to slip the canine back and hold it in place.

Is the adult tooth coming in? This is what needs to be pushed on. Also, you can wiggle the baby canine to encourage it to fall out.

Who is the breeder on this litter?


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

Isn't this the pup from Tango? 

I feel like this should have been disclosed before you signed anything as well. 

I do not have a link, but on the canine repro and puppy care yahoo group that I am on, some people (with standards) were saying something about the vet "nipping" the baby tooth with nail clippers, and then using the method that Cbrand was talking about, once the adult tooth was coming in. 

I would not pull the tooth, just have the vet take the tip off of it. so that the adult tooth still has a space to come in.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Man that ticks me off for you! She told you AFTER you paid her and signed the papers?! I mean how would she have felt if you had signed papers, paid her, as you were walking out the door said "oh by the way I guess I should tell you that this dog is going to be an outside dog 24/7." Then just left. I mean isn't that something she would have wanted to know ahead of time in order to decide if you were the right home for that dog? It's just dishonest and shady and I'm glad I know that this breeder acted this way, ugh.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh my :smow:... 

I tried to warn everybody about teeth so many times : (( and I am sorry that you still got duped :doh:

Yes- it happens that some pups have overbite - but it is a major fault and possibly a long term health problem and puppy buyer needs to be informed !!!!!! 

I am so sorry and I hope it will work itself out somehow : (( My friend had to pay 2000$ for braces for her Bearded Collie and I swore right than and there that I would NEVER take a puppy with the wrong bite - period !!!!

*ESPECIALLY NOT for that amount of money !!!!*


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Unfortunately some show lines do have this problem. It's too bad it wasn't brought to your attention ahead of time. You could have looked for another breeder if desired.

Jasper's baby teeth did NOT grow into his palate, but his line can have a problem with the adult canines. His are coming in and it's really not a big deal at all. As suggested by the breeder, I push on his canines a little several times a day and they're moving very easily and nicely! His adult canines did start to come in behind (as did several of his teeth) but the baby teeth fell out quickly thereafter. Like human kids, the teeth move very nicely into place. 

For the most part your situation doesn't sound that much different. If it were me, I'd probably not worry too much at this point. If the baby tooth lingers too long then, of course, I'd see the Vet for intervention.

While not ideal, it doesn't seem like that much of a problem and doesn't take a lot of time to fix. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding about your dog's particular case though.

Good luck! She is a little doll and I hope you're having a lot of fun with her!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Wow , I am kind of surprised and kind of not about How she told you after you sign and paid. hwell:


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

It sounds like the breeder is in desperate times and didn't want to risk losing the sale. Unfortunately for her, we all now know that she won't hesitate to put her interests first. Not a breeder I will buy from.

It's fortunate her puppy got such a loving home. It sounds like you caught it soon enough to take the appropriate steps to correct it. I can't wait to see more pictures!


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

poodlelover, I am sorry to hear that the breeder did this to you! I have read about 'base narrow' but have not had any experience with it. This info should have been disclosed to you BEFORE you signed anything or paid! She should have explained the issue to you and what you would need to do to help the girl out as her adult teeth came in! If she loves her dogs and the pups she produces, this would have been important for her that you know all about it so you could help the dog so she would be mature with a proper mouth. By not telling you, she did not show concern about the future of this little girl! That makes me upset.

If you would, could you pm me who the breeder is? I would like to know as I would like to avoid this person in any future poodle endeavors. I completely understand that pups are going to come out "not perfect" no matter how good the breeding behind them. I understand that some lines carry one thing, others another. BUT, not to make sure you know what you need to know in order for the pup you get to have proper care and to make sure you are willing to deal with this, is not excusable to me. 

I trust Cbrand's info as she has had experience with this and expect that your girl will be fine in the end, but I send you my best wishes for both you and her!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I agree with Jester's Mom 100 % !!!!!!!!

It is not about "if bite will get better or not" - it is about NOT disclosing it !!!!:fish:

AND - it is NOT true that many lines have that problem - SOME do !

Some "bad bites" get into the place with every-day pushing - some do not !!!

If you are paying that amount of money - you need to get all available info BEFORE you pay for a puppy !!!

My friend was told about overbite but thought "it is nothing" and "nothing" turned into 2000 $ dog braces and pain for a puppy : (((


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I see three problems with this whole thing:

1. Breeder did not disclose problem. I think that is unprofessional and unfair to both puppy who may need intervention and owner who may not be experienced in this issue.

2. Breeder did not offer advice on how to manually work on this issue without seeking expensive medical intervention. BTW... I have heard that chewing on a large tennis ball helps spread the teeth too.

3. Vet suggests expensive medical procedure. I reallly hate it when vets get owners all worked up and try to milk them for extra dollars. Seriously, Base Canine Narrow is a pretty common issue in Standard Poodles. I personally would not pull teeth because it can cause the adult teeth to come in wrong.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Pet Orthodontics

A good link to read about it all...

I really still do not think it is so common - at least should not be : (((

Whenever I looked into a puppy - I asked for a "bite photo" and it was always correct - even with BYBs ..so...

Anyways - It can be a problem ( my friend's puppy had a HOLE in upper palate where the canine hit it and food was collecting and sometimes that hole can go as deep as into the nasal passage : ((( - imagine THAT pain and infections...)

It can correct itself with no manipulation also. 

So yes - definitely ask for a second opinion. Maybe look for a Vet who really does canine orthodontics.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Isn't this the pup from Tango?

Actually, I said some, not many. And SOME do have this issue, I ran into it multiple times during my puppy search. Though none with pups who actually had baby teeth that had penetrated the palate. And I 100% agree that the breeder should have disclosed and offered advice how to manually work the teeth. Although I suppose this could have been a one off situation for her??

And I should clarify, Jas' teeth may have corrected themselves once in since there was no problem with his baby teeth. It looked as if they may be narrow, and we were warned they may be by our breeder, so we have been manually working it. All are coming in nicely. And I can't tell you how happy I am to have those sharp baby canines gone .

Anyhow, I hope all works out with the pup. She's a pretty little thing.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Hmmmm Rock - that is new to me :rolffleyes: LOL

Maybe I always get a photo and get offered a puppy with a correct bite since I ask about a bite :rolffleyes:

But - Jester's mom had none either so far :rolffleyes:

IMO - if dog has a bad bite and needs a "manipulation" to put it in place either with every-day "exercise" of "braces" it should not be eagerly used as a breeding dog since bad bite is genetic thing. 

Any article I read about it suggests strongly that dogs with "off" bite should never be bred.

But again LOL - obviously it is done and obviously than "some" lines have it more prevalent *sigh...

If this is what Tango produces in general - I am not interested


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What gets me is that the breeder just shrugged it off like it's not important and now this owner has to do something she didn't realize she was going to have to do ahead of time. She might have chosen a different puppy or gone to another breeder. I just think it lacks good character with regards to this breeder and I certainly will never refer anyone to the line.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Aaaaaaamen !!!!!

I am just sick and tiered of downplaying issues and faults !!!

Just because somebody is looking for a "pet" does not mean he/she is a dumping ground for "surplus" puppies :smow:hwell::smow: without any input, explanation or direction and just "shood" out of the house with , "Oh, by the way ..." : (((


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Wish-- Good link, thanks for posting! I don't think photos are always going to show a problem. Sometimes there isn't a problem until the adult teeth start to come in. I had one breeder who brought it up therefore I knew to ask the others. I suspect that in minor cases some breeders may not see it as a bite defect as it can be fixed before the teeth are in all the way. Who knows?

I do think the bigger issue here is that the breeder wasn't upfront about the problem. I love when breeders openly discuss the good and bad about their line. Let's face it, there's no line, or dog, that's perfect. I appreciate having the opportunity to educate myself and chose what I can, or can't, live with. If they're dishonest or withhold information you're not getting to make the most educated choice for yourself.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes dear Rock - I agree absolutely with all that you said  !!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

And that is my issue with this breeder too. I took Harry knowing that he had the problem and luckily he's been fine. I want to know about any problems ahead of time. Dog's with a low tailset or a little long in the back or needing more neck are just visual faults that wouldn't do well in the show ring but something like a bite being off could complicate the human's life and make her have to live with something she hadn't bargined for and that is just wrong on the breeder's part. I realize that these are animals and in the long run you might run into health issues that you hadn't "bargined for" but we all know that going into purchasing a puppy. The issue with the bite is that she knowingly withheld that information from the buyer so that they buyer would take the puppy and figure it out later. She had a puppy she didn't want and she was willing to take the risk that she'd just work out the situation and keep the puppy. Shoddy business ownership right there. 

I know I'm preaching to the choir but this type of stuff irks me to no end.


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## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

Hi, my vet sent a picture to a dental specialist and he said the tooth should come out. My vet that I usually see showed the other vet my pups tooth and she said it should come out. 
I am going to my breeders vet on May 8th at her expense and if her vet says it needs to come out then she will pay for the surgery. 
I hope the tooth will end up in the right spot. I don't want infection in the hole. 
I am upset that my breeder told me about the tooth just as I was leaving, I just wanted to get home with her and I never looked in her mouth at the time. 
My breeder stills thinks that I should not pull it. She had other poodles with the same problem and the teeth always went into place. 
It is the breeder that is mentioned here. 
I paid $1600.00 for her. 
Thanks everyone. I will post pictures another day. I am going to bed.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I do not understand why 2 independent Vets and a Dog's Orthodontist opinion do not count :rolffleyes:, but let's hope for the best. 

Good to know that it "runs" in her lines ...

I wish you and your pup the best of luck and keep us posted :clover:


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

This is the problem with forums like this where one person posts a situation and the other person on the other side of the situation position is not heard. 

Please do not jump to any conclusions until you learn all the facts. 

Yes, Ilusion has 1 lower canine that is growing inward, it is very common in this breed and any breeding with a long, narrow muzzle. The upper and lower jaws grow at different rates and there can be a period of time where 1 or more of the canines can be misaligned. This is usually a very temporary problem . That baby tooth , if the misalignment is not severe (as is the case with Ilusion) will correct itself as the jaws development becomes more even, or when the baby tooth falls out at around 4 to 5 mths, the adult tooth will come in perfectly correct. I have NEVER had a puppy where the adult teeth have not come in where they are supposed to. I've had this happen with a pup or two over the years . My Poodles generally have good width to their muzzle and good underjaw. I don't generally have Poodles with very snipey heads and lacking underjaw. So there is always room in their mouths for all those teeth. It's just during the initial growth of the upper and lower jaws in early puppyhood that there can be this issue. If you speak to many breeders, if they are being honest, they will admit that they run into this also from time to time. 

Because this is quite common and usually only temporary, we don't generally get too concerned about it and we just wait for the puppy teeth to fall out. My vet checks all my pups prior to them leaving my home and he has seen this tooth misaligment before and is never concerned and never has he suggested pulling the baby tooth. Doing so can severely damage the adult teeth below. If the baby tooth is causing a lot of trauma to the upper palate, it can be files or in some cases I have heard of vets/breeders just taking the tip of the tooth off just to help out until the baby tooth falls out. My vet is used my many breeders of different breeds so he is familiar with a lot of the breed related issues and has a lot more experience with such things than the average companion owner vet has. 

The buyer was told about this issue when she came to pick the puppy up. She certainly could have decided not to take the puppy, I would have been more than willing to hand her money back to her if she choose not to take the puppy. She could have also asked if it was possible to take another girl, I have 1 or 2 still available. I had chosen this particular puppy for her because I felt she was the best fit for the type of home and lifestyle she would have. They seemed like the right fit and I take placement of my puppies very seriously. 

The paperwork that was signed was just my sales contact, which could have been ripped up if the buyer choose not to take the puppy that day. I do not force anyone to buy a puppy from me and I do not sell puppies and try to conceal any information that a puppy buyer should know. 

I explained the misaliged tooth to her that very day, told her what to do and that she should not worry , that the adult teeth would be fine. I stand by that and if that is not the case, as I told the puppy buyer, I will be more than willing to pay for my own vet to do what he feels is necessary for the health and comfort of this puppy. 

I have been in constant touch with this buyer to keep up to speed on the tooth issues and to see how the puppy has settled into it's new home. I am available at all times to all my puppy buyers and work hard to stay in touch and to be supportive and willing to answer any questions or concerns my puppy buyers may have. It does appear that Ilusion's misaligned tooth has almost cleared the gum line and is very close to being in the correct position. 

I know that Ilusion is in a wonderful home, I would not have sold her to this buyer if I did not feel 100% confident in the love and care she would receive. 

'This puppy will end up with a perfect normal bite as an adult. This is not an overbite, underbite, wry bite or otherwise. This is an issue to due with a growth stage that will work itself out. If it does not, I will be the first to admit it and will take responsibility for having the problem corrected. 

I bought a lovely male from another breeder a few years back. Had him shown to his Canadian championship and had planned on using him in my breeding program if all his health testing came back good. Unfortunately at the age of about 18 mths it became apparant that he had 'wry bite' which IS a bite problem so I made the decision not to breed this boy. He was neutered and placed in a wonderful, loving pet home where he is thriving. I do not breed dogs with bad bite. I will not use a dog with an incorrect bite in my breeding program. This issues however with Ilusion is not a bad bite issue. 

I work hard to breed healthy, happy, beautiful Poodles. I stand behind my dogs. I take pride in working in an ethical and responsible manner with my puppy buyers. So it's upsetting when I read a thread like this with such negative comments from people who have not heard the whole situation and whom don't know me or have not had any personal dealings with me. 

Lisa


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## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

Thank-you Lisa for your calm rational reply. It's important that all sides get heard and that's what we strive for here (I hope).


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Hi Lisa, 
Glad to see your reply....I miss a lot of threads, so didn't see this one until now.
Over the years I've seen lots of puppies with the misaligned baby tooth, and also adult teeth that take a long time to correct.
Seen it in wide jaws, narrow jaws, show dogs and BYB dog. As Lisa says, so much of it depends on the growth of the muzzles. You can sell a puppy with perfect bite, and have it go off when adult teeth come in. I once sold a toy poodle that had an under bite, saw the dog 3 months alter and the bite was perfect.

Right now I have a dog that is the first one to NOT correct on her own. I had placed her and the buyer decided she did not want to mess with the misaligned tooth. The dog did go to a doggie dentist and he said the dog has normal jaws and bone structure, just that the tooth did not come out far enough and made a pocket on the outside of the gum. we're doing the tennis ball tug for another month and them may do a file down and cap if needed. She also has 3 missing molars, so it might have been something else that made the tooth wrong. I checked ALL our dogs and no-one has any missing teeth. I guess I just never checked premolars, but will do that now.

Lisa is a good breeder, honest, and reliable.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

My pups bottom canines are growing a bit in, I've been pushing them out, but how often should I do that a day and for how long?


















Karen told me about it when I got him, and showed me how to push his teeth out, as well as told me about the tennis balls. I do not,_ in any way_, doubt her professionalism as a breeder nor do I blame this _at all _on her.  Vegas is just the special one in the litter!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Fluffy - this is one of the articles I found - hope it helps 

Treating a bad bite can involve simple things like a veterinarian removing persistent deciduous (baby) teeth, or at the other end of the spectrum having a board-certified veterinary dentist apply braces. The goal of orthodontic treatment is to provide the dog with a healthy and functional bite – not necessarily a perfect one.

In fact, orthodontic treatment disqualifies dogs from being allowed to compete in dog shows.

One common and very painful condition is called "linguoversion of the mandibular canine teeth," also called "base narrow." Translation: The canine or fang teeth on the lower jaw are slanted in and press against or penetrate the roof of the mouth.

Yes, it's extremely painful, and the affected dogs can be shy, withdrawn or aggressive.

Sometimes, these lower fang teeth can poke through the roof of the mouth and cause a horrible infection called oral nasal fistula. According to Carmichael, this problem can be corrected with a variety of procedures that include removing a wedge of gum to allow the tooth to rotate into proper position; applying acrylic planes that act as ramps to direct teeth into a healthier position; or building up the height and changing the shape of the tooth with dental plastics (called camouflage orthodontics) so that the newly created tip occludes normally. But first, you may want to try a rubber ball.

One study showed that having young dogs with this condition hold an appropriately sized and properly shaped rubber ball or chew toy (e.g. lacrosse ball or spherical round rubber chew toy like the round end of a Kong) in their mouths for a minimum of 15 minutes, three times per day, can correct many of these base narrow conditions. The ball acts as an orthodontic appliance (inclined plane), applying forces to the affected teeth every time the dog bites down on it.

"The elegance of this dental physical therapy is its simplicity and low cost, as it doesn't require anesthesia," says Carmichael. But it's not as simple as sticking any old rubber ball in your dog's mouth.

"It is imperative for a veterinarian to choose a rubber device that is the proper size and shape for the individual patient and carefully instruct the owner on its use." To encourage the dog to keep the ball in its mouth for extended periods, Carmichael says pet owners often sit cross-legged on the floor and hold the ball or device in the pet's mouth, encouraging them with "good-girls," "atta-boys" and the promise of a tasty treat when the session is done.

Done correctly on properly selected cases, the ball treatment works about 75 percent of the time.

Because pets require anesthesia for most dental procedures and some may require multiple procedures, orthodontics can be expensive. According to Carmichael costs, include:

•Rubber ball therapy: $5

•Average price of gum resection: $1,000

•Acrylic orthodontic appliance: $1,500

•Camouflage orthodontics: $1,500

A dog's pearly whites with a healthy and functional bite: priceless!


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> My pups bottom canines are growing a bit in, I've been pushing them out, but how often should I do that a day and for how long?


Jasper's weren't that bad, but I did his for about 1 minute 3x day. Not enough pressure to turn your fingers white when putting pressure on the tooth.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I'm not one to get all excited about teeth issues, but I still think the buyer should have been told about the issue before traveling to finalize the sale.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I do believe Tango's long reply...however that being said, that particular pup has a really reduced value....no stinkin way would I pay $1,600 for a less than ideal bite, tailset etc. That pup might turn out fine and might not. If your vet know about it BEFORE, why couldnt just that one be sold for $300?


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

Most reputable breeders are not in the habit of 'discounting' puppies for minor 'imperfection's ' , specially those that will end up not being an issue and that in no way will effect the health and happiness of a puppy or make it any less a valued member of it's new family. No dog is perfect, not even the dogs we see in the show ring, the Best in Show winners. They all, like us humans, have imperfections. It is the same with all living things. Many of these imperfections do not distract from that puppies ability to be a healthy and happy family companion. If breeders were to discount any puppy with a minor imperfection and there are many that can show up in any puppy, in any breed, then all puppies would be 'discounted' and sold for $300 or what ever you happen to deem 'fare' . What you should expect for a fare and average price is a healthy, well adjusted puppy, from health tested lines, who has a great temperament and comes with a reasonable health guarantee and from a breeder that will take that puppy back should you not be able to keep the dog, no matter it's age. These are reasonable expectations, perfection is not. Not one single puppy ever born is 'perfect' in every way. 

As I said, this is quite common and most breeders do not see it as a huge concern. Neither did my vet. In my experience these teeth turn out being perfectly fine. I did not feel that this issue would be of a concern to the puppy buyer and obviously it was not at the time the buyer picked the puppy up or they would have said something then. Like I said, I would have been more than willing to refund their money or give them the option of taking one of the other girls that I had still available at the time if they had shown any concern or had felt uncomfortable taking the puppy that was picked for them.

Also, I don't always decide which puppy will go with which family until a day or two before the pups start going home and sometimes not even until the day the puppy buyer picks up their puppy. This was a very consistent litter and there were 3 girls that I was considering for this buyer. I didn't make the decision until the morning of the day that the buyer was coming to pick up their pup.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

she is 9 years. But to me it was a huge flaw. I have always been bugged by it. She had a recent litter and one male puppy had it too. I showed it to the people who came to buy him. I also showed him what his mothers mouth is like. I didn't hide it. 

I'm just curious...if you felt the crooked tooth was such a huge flaw, why did you breed your girl?


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

partial2poodles said:


> I do believe Tango's long reply...however that being said, that particular pup has a really reduced value....no stinkin way would I pay $1,600 for a less than ideal bite, tailset etc.
> 
> Unless the puppy is being sold as a show prospect the tailset should not be of concern. In this case, the bite is not less than ideal...she has a base narrow jaw, which is very common in standard poodles. As Tango says, most work themselves out as the puppy grows, but she has offered to pay to fix it if necessary. Breeders are bound to produce imperfections in their puppies, but I judge a breeder more by how they deal with problems that arise, not whether they produce problems.
> In this area $1600 is very reasonable for a standard poodle puppy from health tested parents. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that Tango puppies are so reasonably priced!


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

As a consumer, I am still concerned as to why the buyer wasn't notified before she picked up the puppy or at the very least given the opportunity to look over the other pups before the sales contract was written. This would have gained my ultimate respect for a breeder to be forthright and honest before the need arose. 

It was obvious that the buyer was concerned about it when she got home. It took her up to Thursday to post about the highly anticipated puppy she got the previous weekend. The fact that you are writing your defense tells me there could have been better communication.

Not only should the buyer have been told about the tooth, but the two of you should have come to an agreement on how to handle this if the tooth doesn't correct itself. I understand that you have offered to pay for it to be corrected by your vet. It's difficult to tell on a forum, but I don't get the feeling that the buyer is very comfortable with that arrangement since your vet is so far away and unfamiliar to her. Did you get anything in writing indicating that this was an acceptable arrangement?

It's very difficult to anticipate a new puppy then have things change as you are standing there holding them in your hands. Did you really expect her to insist you to tear up the sales contract and exchange the puppy!?! You knew better than that! As a breeder, I would hope you would be very sensitive to this and take the extra steps to make certain the puppy placement was appropriate. Temperament is not the only deciding factor. Health has a LOT to do with it. How did you pick the pup that morning? "Oh, this buyer is here, and I don't have other buyers lined up. I should get rid of the pup with the bad tooth!" If the other pups were so similar, why didn't you place the healthier ones first? Could it be that you were worried it wouldn't correct itself? 

It sounds like you do a lot of things right, but I would not buy a puppy from you. It sounds like you are letting money rule over your better judgement.

I hope this experience, and having it out in the open, will put your breeding program back on track. Everyone makes mistakes. It's how we fix them that matters most.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I just want to say that ,as a buyer, I would like to be informed about "such a minor" flaws , since they might or might not correct itself. 

I want to know if bite is correct and if testicles are down in a male . Actually, I would never buy a puppy with those flaws or any major bad confirmation faults since a poodle , even as a pet, deserves to be a good representative of a breed. 

Form follows a function (or other way around ) also and even though no puppy is perfect - some are very close to be and some ,unfortunately, are very far from what the standard is "calling for".

Bad bite and non-descended testicles can be potentially a problem and buyer has a right to know about it before selection is made IMO. 

I was hoping to hear that Illusion was actually exception in the litter - the fact that litter was "consistent" is disappointing to me to hear :rolffleyes:


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

This is the last I will post on this subject. I do not need to write any 'defense' and was simply explaining the way things went since there were some that were making wrong assumptions about the situation and about me as a breeder. 

The pup and it's littermates are healthy. Why would you assume that the pup is unhealthy simply because of 1 slightly misaligned lower canine? 

i've explained the way things happened. There were 3 lovely girls I was considering for this buyer. All 3 were puppies that I myself was looking at as possible 'picks' to keep here. The puppy I picked actually also had a slightly misaligned canine (which now has corrected itself-as I suspect Ilusion's will also). So no, i was not trying to get 'rid' of any particular puppy but had made a decision based on what the puppy buyers was looking for in a new puppy. It was that close with these 3 girls, making a decision was difficult and had nothing to do with the tooth. 

Let me reiterate that I do not see this slight misalignment as a real issue or concern and did not feel that the buyer would have any issues with it. I just pointed it out when we were going over all the other information (feeding, next vaccinations, crate training etc. etc) and really did not feel that the tooth was a problem. I explained the tooth to the buyer, told her what she could do to help the tooth clear the gum line and assured her that the adult tooth that followed with out fine. Based on my experience, the adult teeth have always come in correctly so I did not feel it necessary to go into the 'what ifs' . Unfortunately her vet took an alarmist position and really put the fear of God into her about this tooth. At a second visit, another vet at that same clinic assured her it was not a problem and had basically the same thoughts that myself and my vet have on this misalignment issue. 

The buyer and I have been in contact since the puppy went home and we have a good relationship. She is very happy with her puppy and is feeling comfortable at this point in regards to the tooth issue. 

It has been mentioned that she lives far away but in actual fact she is just 1 1/2 hours from me. That is not what I consider a great distance. However, if this distance is a problem or the buyer was not able to get to an appointment at my vets, I would be happy to pick the puppy up and take it for the appointment. 

I don't need people who don't know me and have no dealing with me, that base their opinions on hearsay and incorrect information, to tell me that I need to 'get my breeding program back on track' . My breeding program and my business practices are just fine thank you very much and there are a whole lot of puppy buyers out there that will tell you the same. 

Don't worry, as much as prospective puppy buyers shop around and make a decision of who they would buy a puppy from, don't forget, on the other side of that coin are breeders doing the very same thing, making decisions on who they will or will not sell their puppies too and I can tell you that public forums are a good place to learn about people who you would not want to sell one of your puppies to. :wacko:


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Well, unfortunate as it is, I am thankful to learn that all of your pups were 'consistent' in having tooth problems and that you didn't give her the only puppy with defective teeth.

I know you don't believe this is a problem. You have made that very clear. The main thing is that you and the buyer can agree on the resolution of a 'non-existent' issue. From what you have posted, it sounds like it is.

Even if the buyer blew this way out of proportion, I still think you have an obligation to inform buyers before they arrive or before a puppy is chosen. It's the right thing to do...no matter how small the issue is at the moment. If it has a possibility of escalating to a greater concern, I think you would want to address it.


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## poodlelover (Oct 19, 2008)

Hello everyone, I would like everyone to know that Ilusions tooth is in place. The breeder was right and she knows her breed. Not every dog is perfect and I love Ilusion very much. 
The third vet that I took Ilusion to for her 12 week vaccine had no concern about her tooth and told me not to worry and the tooth will correct itself. 
I don't know why the other vets made it sound so horrible and she needed surgery right away. 
I know I was upset that I was told about the tooth just before leaving, but honestly I did not think it was a problem until my vet saw her. 
My breeder did agree to pay for it and she answered all my emails. 
But now everything is okay and Ilusion is doing well. 
I will post some pictures of her soon.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

poodlelover said:


> I don't know why the other vets made it sound so horrible and she needed surgery right away.


Money maybe AND not sure if you have experienced this but if I mention breeder my vet gets annoyed so I see where his mood changes. He will always make certain Suri listens a bit more then Olie when he asks her to do something. Luckily both our spoo kids are well behaived and she never lets me down- but it annoys me. 

There is a good deal of education I have gotten from Suri's breeder and a couple that I am in contact with - I trust them. Even if they are not always right or you agreeing 100%, if they stand by what they say for what they can do, says a lot to me. Your dogs are both adorable.


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I know this has been a tense thread at times, but I just wanted to say thanks for all the knowledge contained here- darned if I didn't have a good look at Alf's teeth, & it's on _both_ sides. One baby tooth wiggly, one not. 

I feel like I've had a huge education about the condition, & not to get in hysterics.  (And Tango, I'd be proud to own one of your spoos, if I wasn't knee-deep in poodle companionship already!)


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Olie said:


> Money maybe AND not sure if you have experienced this but if I mention breeder my vet gets annoyed so I see where his mood changes. He will always make certain Suri listens a bit more then Olie when he asks her to do something. Luckily both our spoo kids are well behaived and she never lets me down- but it annoys me.
> 
> There is a good deal of education I have gotten from Suri's breeder and a couple that I am in contact with - I trust them. Even if they are not always right or you agreeing 100%, if they stand by what they say for what they can do, says a lot to me. Your dogs are both adorable.


I think so many vets see 'breeders' as BYB's. Plus many do not want to give credit for breeders knowing more about their dogs than the vet. One the hardest thing about moving to another state is finding a new vet. The ones we use now and very good to us, but still find the staff gets annoyed with us ;-).

We are constantly in a learning phase with our dogs, and adding different lines, etc can bring out a bunch of new issues. So buyers input in essential in the future of our breed.

Buyers like Olie are wonderful as they keep us informed on all things.

There are no perfect dogs, and no perfect genetics. It like building a car from parts you take out of a black bag. Having no idea if those parts are good or defective. or if they will combine with other parts. 

With polygenetic issues..will the 3 parts work together or will one part ruin the rest? think of cogs in a watch..when one breaks, they all stop. was it a bad cog? or did something external cause it to break?


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## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

Poodlelover, I admire your last post. You really came out and set the record straight. I am just sorry that Tango got hauled through the mud, accused of basically sloughing off unsellable puppies etc. I trust you either didn't know she was on this forum or didn't realize what a thrashing her reputation would get by posting your post. Just another example of what seems to happen on here a lot. People ganging up and hauling a third party through the mud without knowing both sides. I hope there hansn't been damage to your relationship with Tango because of all of this. Sometimes it is best to work out your issues between the involved parties instead of posting something on a world wide forum that can lead to hurt feelings, misunderstandings and damaged reputations. Again, nice post on your part.


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

Thank you Donna for the update on Ilusion. I enjoyed the photos and the video you sent me! I am very happy that her baby tooth is in position now just as I suspected it would. I know Ilusion has a wonderful home with you and your family and I hope she brings you many years of happiness! That's really all a breeder wants for their pups, a happy, loving, responsible , forever home for each and every one of their puppies. 

Thank you Bluespoo, Tintlet and Jillian for your posts. 

Jullian, mine and Donna's relationship is just fine. I am not upset with Donna's concern about the tooth or her original post on this thread. She got upset because her vet took an alarmist and over reactive position about the tooth. So what has upset me is that vets reaction and the accusational posts from other members here who don't know a thing about me or this situation. Donna and I
just want what is best for Ilusion so she was worried when the vet starting talking surgery. I appreciate that Donna contacted me with her vets recommendations but then was willing to go with my experience with this type of tooth issue and agreed to allow my vet to take a look. It turned out that a trip to my vet was not even needed, the tooth is not sitting in perfect position and is no longer an issue.


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

That should say 'now sitting in perfect position' .


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Im glad everything is fine! 

Yes some vets will try to make money off of you and these vets are the ones doing it for $$$ and not for the love of the animals. 

Some times you have to go to 3 different vets to make sure its true what the first vet says. I remember this happened with my GSD she injured her leg and one vet said it was broke ( he did not even touch her he just looked and said we needed 400 worth of xrays) i went down the street for a second opinion and saved $400 bucks lol All it was was a torn ligament ....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am happy that this all worked out and Tango's name has been cleared here. Sometimes we are awfully to jump to conclusions without hearing the whole story or taking a wait and see approach. Lisa...I would not heistate to own one of your dogs or breed to one of your dogs. Somebody that has this many dogs winning in the ring is doing something right!


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