# Graphic and Pinafore



## Harley_chik

Anyone have any comments on these kennels?


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## KPoos

During my limited pedigree research I came across a lot of Pinafore dogs so I looked them up. One, they are currently active in the show ring. Two, they have many many champions in their breeding lines and three, their dogs are very typey and in my opinion beautiful. I don't know about health of lines so that's obviously something you'd have to research further. I just liked the look of what I saw.

I know nothing about Graphic but I can ask my friend for you.


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## cbrand

Do you want to know about the lines or about Florence and Penny?


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## Harley_chik

The lines I guess.


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## jak

cbrand said:


> Do you want to know about the lines or about *Florence and Penny*?


What do you mean?


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## wishpoo

Both VERY famous lines !!!!! Have produced some GREAT dogs but ... I would go with other lines. Just my preference. Smaller breeders have more control over testing and especially over puppy socialization and are more readily available for personal and continuous support. Both breeders did not pass my "friendliness" test LOL, something that is VERY important for me, but it is just me .... I do not like to see puppy sale as a "business" transaction and I want to have a saying in what puppy I would get.

If you are looking strictly for a show dog - than they might be a good source for healthy dog with great potential. Just be sure to get that contract RIGHT !!!!!!! And also make sure that you make naming rule clear !!!!!


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## jak

They seem to have very nice dogs, Patrick, my spoos grandfather is from there (Pinafore), and he reached his 100th best in show last march, he is Unique Reach for the Rainbow x Warwick White Delemma. There dogs do look quite nice, but I have had no personal experience.

I do know however, that one of there silvers "Pinafore Seabiskit" has produced 5 puppies with addisons. 2 from same dam, and 3 from different others


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## KPoos

jak said:


> They seem to have very nice dogs, Patrick, my spoos grandfather is from there (Pinafore), and he reached his 100th best in show last march, he is Unique Reach for the Rainbow x Warwick White Delemma. There dogs do look quite nice, but I have had no personal experience.
> 
> I do know however, that one of there silvers "Pinafore Seabiskit" has produced 5 puppies with addisons. 2 from same dam, and 3 from different others


That's good to know thank you for sharing that information. Since I want a silver in the future it's good to know what to avoid.


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## Harley_chik

Yes, thanks for that info, I'm of to check pedigrees. I guess that's what Cbrand meant, I'm not buying directly from either of those breeders. But both dogs being used in the breeding are from those lines.


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## KPoos

That's how I bought too and I'm happy with my choice.


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## SECRETO

Susan Cook from Marquis Diamond Standard Poodles use's pinafore lines in her breeding program. So you dont have to go to penefore to get a heavy lined penefore poodle. 

Also, Ive seen graphic dogs in person and they're beautiful. However, I also met this breeder in person at a ahow and wasnt impressed. Im big on having a relationship with a breeder that I get my dog from and I didnt feel that way when meeting the breeder with Graphic. The feeling just wasnt there. Plus, she will not allow her dogs to be registered UKC which I feel is being block minded. Exposure and having fun with your dog showing in any registry should be the least of a breeders worries in my opinion. 

I like having the option to do both AKC and UKC. I asked the graphic breeder about this prior to meeting her and I still wanted to consider her because her dogs are very pretty. After meeting in person I knew what my decision would be. I continued looking at different breeders and lines.


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## KPoos

That's a very good point. What is it with standoffish behavior in breeders? Don't you want to stay in close contact with a person that wants to buy your dog? Unless you are going to keep them all, one would think that would be important to build strong relationships with those that take your pet quality puppies so that you get repeat buyers and good homes for those you can't keep.


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## Harley_chik

I guess I had an unusual experience. The breeder I've talked to most, is so sweet! She's not having any litter soon, but she co-owns/bred some of the dogs, I'm looking at. She has several related dogs and invited me to her house to meet them. She answers all of my emails in a day or two. She encouraged me to go to the show this weekend and told me to make sure I track her down when I get there.


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## Cdnjennga

Harley_chik said:


> I guess I had an unusual experience. The breeder I've talked to most, is so sweet! She's not having any litter soon, but she co-owns/bred some of the dogs, I'm looking at. She has several related dogs and invited me to her house to meet them. She answers all of my emails in a day or two. She encouraged me to go to the show this weekend and told me to make sure I track her down when I get there.


Hey, it's all about personal experiences! One person's winner is another person's loser.  Are you going to the show this week-end?


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## Harley_chik

This is a different breeder in TX and yep, I'm going to the show. I may have to buy a biohazard suit though, lol. I can't seem to get over the flu and I don't want to give it to anyone else.


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## jak

Just saying about pinafore seabiskit,

he has sired at least 27 litters according to poodle health registry, and only 4 litters have had puppies with addisons. And it does lead to suggest that it is more the dams side than anything, (not sure if I'm correct about genetics)
But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss pinafore, they do have lovely dogs.

But also, Whisperwind seem to have nice silvers, not sure about their actual breeding though


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## KPoos

I'm sorry but even one having it and he shouldn't have been siring anymore litters. It's just common sense to nip things like that in the bud early on.

I was just on Whisperwind's website and they have lovely dogs.


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## Cdnjennga

Harley_chik said:


> This is a different breeder in TX and yep, I'm going to the show. I may have to buy a biohazard suit though, lol. I can't seem to get over the flu and I don't want to give it to anyone else.


Oh I see. Bah humbug to the flu. Hope you recover sufficiently to go! And take photos.


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## jak

KPoos said:


> I'm sorry but even one having it and he shouldn't have been siring anymore litters. It's just common sense to nip things like that in the bud early on.
> 
> I was just on Whisperwind's website and they have lovely dogs.


Anyway, Pinafore Seabiskit isn't owned by Pinafore, but rather Somanic in the UK
So I don't think he is in their breeding program


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## KPoos

jak said:


> Anyway, Pinafore Seabiskit isn't owned by Pinafore, but rather Somanic in the UK
> So I don't think he is in their breeding program


Oh okay.


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## cbrand

jak said:


> Just saying about pinafore seabiskit,
> 
> he has sired at least 27 litters according to poodle health registry, and only 4 litters have had puppies with addisons. And it does lead to suggest that it is more the dams side than anything, (not sure if I'm correct about genetics)
> But I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss pinafore, they do have lovely dogs.
> 
> But also, Whisperwind seem to have nice silvers, not sure about their actual breeding though


I just checked Poodle Health Registry

Pinafore Seabiskit is the sire of 4 Addisonian puppies out of 3 bitches who all have different pedigrees. He clearly is bringing some sort of Addisonian gene to the mix (we don't know for sure how it is transmitted). If he were my dog, he would be neutered and removed from my program.


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## mandi

I so agree with this! My first poodle breeder never returned my phone call or e-mail this summer so I ended up buying my second poodle from a different breeder. The first one lost her chance. Since many of us who buy online never meet the breeder, we do not feel 'married' to her if she does not keep any contact. I guess most breeders do not really have a good business sense.


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## wishpoo

*Cbrand *- thanks for posting that ! It only proves my theory that "small scale" breeding is the ONLY way of keeping things in check and under control !!!

*Mandi* - same here ! I also eliminate any breeder who questions my "demand" for a puppy without major faults (like incorrect bite, non -descended testicles, or wrong top-line ) ! I had quiet a few asking _why_ would I mind if I need "just a pet" _ WHAT A NERVE LOL !!!???? When I sense that arrogance that is the END of my communication even if alllll of her/his pups would be Westminster world champions :mffad: Puppy with wrong bite can cost a ton later for correcting the teeth problem; testicles that do not come down are very expensive to remove and procedure risky and bad structure is not only NOT pretty - it can be problem too !!!

Also, if breeder is not available for "communication" - than what if any problems arise with a puppy ???!!!! Do I expect that breeder to honor the contract later on ??? Of course not : ((( !


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## jak

cbrand said:


> I just checked Poodle Health Registry
> 
> Pinafore Seabiskit is the sire of 4 Addisonian puppies out of 3 bitches who all have different pedigrees. He clearly is bringing some sort of Addisonian gene to the mix (we don't know for sure how it is transmitted). If he were my dog, he would be neutered and removed from my program.


Plus another puppy here in New Zealand who isn't on there, that's why I said 5


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## Buck

Has anyone here ever been to Pinafore Kennels? I was just wondering what her set up was like.


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## mandi

I agree that Susan Cook from Marquis Diamond seems to be a congenial breeder. I have researched many poos during the past year and talked to breeders-also looked into their lines. If I were getting a silver, I would look at Black Tie Poodles in Florida. So these two breeders pass my "test"-LOL. My minis are from Piper's Poodles (MI) and Ash's Mystical (NV). Ironically, the dam of the one from MI is out of Ash's stock. But I don't think they will be selling anymore to Piper as that breeder had supposedly promised to show her dogs and then didn't-I guess an agreement like that between breeders that is broken is a big no-no? Maybe someday I will have a Standard but I guess 3 is our limit for now-actually my hubby said he was leaving if we had more than 2 but he is still here-lol...


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## kirada1

> Plus another puppy here in New Zealand who isn't on there, that's why I said 5


Can you please email me privatley Jak
[email protected] 
Thank you
Jacqui
www.kiradapoodles.com


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## Jeremy

So I know that the exact inheritance of Addisons has not yet been determined.
However, what information is there ? 

As in this case...with a dog throwing Addisons to different breeds, can we be sure that he 100% carries a gene of some sort? or is it possible to be completely the bitch's "fault"?


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## jak

Jeremy said:


> So I know that the exact inheritance of Addisons has not yet been determined.
> However, what information is there ?
> 
> As in this case...with a dog throwing Addisons to different breeds, can we be sure that he 100% carries a gene of some sort? or is it possible to be completely the bitch's "fault"?


It can never really be the fault of one dog, as the puppy will get a combination of genes from each parent. So it is the mix of those parents genes that create Addisons.


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## Jeremy

Oh right, thanks. So we know for sure that inheritance is recessive and both parents must have the gene for it to happen?


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## Harley_chik

Jeremy said:


> So I know that the exact inheritance of Addisons has not yet been determined.
> However, what information is there ?
> 
> As in this case...with a dog throwing Addisons to *different breeds,* can we be sure that he 100% carries a gene of some sort? or is it possible to be completely the bitch's "fault"?


Is this a typo? Are you a breeder? I ask b/c you seem very interested in breeding and haven't shared much info about yourself or your dogs.


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## Reesmom

I was refered to Blacktie in FL. I chatted with her thru email. I know she is planning a litter for this spring. Her Gentry is in the pedigree of the Graphic dog I'm getting a pup from. She seems very nice.


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## cbrand

Jeremy said:


> So I know that the exact inheritance of Addisons has not yet been determined.
> However, what information is there ?
> 
> As in this case...with a dog throwing Addisons to different breeds, can we be sure that he 100% carries a gene of some sort? or is it possible to be completely the bitch's "fault"?


I'm not sure that I understand your question either. What different breeds? 

It basically comes down to this.... Since we don't know how or why Addisons is produced, we should try at all costs to breed away from it as much as possible. 

Personally, I would certainly not breed to a Poodle who had Addisons. I would not breed a Poodle who had a full sibling with Addisons. I would spay a bitch who produced Addisons and personally, I would not breed to a stud dog who had produced Addisons.


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## Jeremy

Harley_chik said:


> Is this a typo? Are you a breeder? I ask b/c you seem very interested in breeding and haven't shared much info about yourself or your dogs.


Yes, it was a typo - I meant to say bitches from different breeding.

Cbrand, I think likewise - best course of action is to get as far away from it as possible.


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## bluespoomommy

Looking at Mochi's pedigree, I noticed that Pinafore Seabiskit is her great grand sire...Mochi's dam is pretty much all from the Pinafore line. Mochi's sire comes from Graphic and Donnchada lines.


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## Harley_chik

I was meaning to ask what lines your girl came from. Thanks for sharing! I'm hoping to get a pup from graphic lines myself.


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## wishpoo

Harley - check health certificates diligently and go with repeat breeding if at all possible and dogs older than 4 years ...


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