# New Rally Masters Signs



## lily cd re

I printed out descriptions of all of the AKC rally signs. the new ones in novice, intermediate, advanced and excellent all make sense to me on how to teach them, but I have to confess that I am stumped on two of the masters signs. If you have downloaded and have copies to the signs and descriptions it is number 319 and 320 that are vexing to me. I have no problem with others that involve the dogs doing spins next to me, but can't think how I will teach having the dog do a circle next to me while I am also moving. Ideas on this will be most welcome.

I would also invite you all to treat this thread as a place where we can share our ideas about any of the new signs at any of the levels that we might want ideas or help with.


*319. Side by Side **360°Right Circle - **While heeling, the dog and handler will stop forward motion and make a **360° side by side right circle**.*










*320. Side by Side **360°Left Circle - **While heeling, the dog and handler will stop forward motion and make a **360° side by side left circle*.







​


----------



## Muggles

Perhaps I am misunderstanding as this appears to be one of the Australian novice signs (your photos aren't loading on my phone) but if you are stopping forward motion aren't you just doing a 360 yourself with the dog in heel? So one turning a full circle to your right and the other to your left?


----------



## lily cd re

Muggles, we have those 360 right and 360 left signs too, but this is different. The dog does its own circle and the handler does their own circle next to each other. It is like two "parallel" circles being done side by side at the same time and there are two versions one to the right and one to the left. I'm sorry the pictures didn't transfer. I don't seem to be able to save it in a size and format that the forum can load.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Can you repost the picture? From the description it almost sounds like a Canine Musical Freestyle trick.


----------



## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat I agree it is sort of like a freestyle trick. I will see if I can post the picture later. I tried last night to no avail. If I can't put it here directly I will see if I can find the original link. Imagine two circles right next to each other making sort of a figure 8, but one circle is the handlers path and the left side circle is the dogs path.


----------



## Countryboy

Some new member was mentioning the other day that after a CGC *or a CGN... the Canadian equivalent* that Rally is the next step in dog sports. I agree... for two reasons.

You can learn/practice it at home... no equipment needed. And you can do it in a small space... practicing each movement individually. I found an online hunt for the signs quite a challenge in my earlier, dog sport days. But I found most of them once upon a time. 

Signs... and watching a few videos should get you the hang of it even if there are no classes near you. Think of it as some kind of a strange dance... a duet. Ginger Rogers and Fred Astair, if you will. It frees up your movement, adds a little fun as you and your partner waltz thru the course. And the judges LOVE it.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Is the dog turning left while handler turns right? Because that really would be a cool trick to see. That's a complicated trick because the dog can't cue off your behavior. You're doing one thing but the dog is doing another. You both start out facing the same direction, moving apart and return to each other.

Yes, that sounds like a dance move. 

You might need to make two circles in tape on the floor in that figure 8 pattern, with marks at Noon, 9, 6 and 3. Start out heeling with her at three and you at 9. Eventually you'll go clockwise, she goes anticlockwise. Then you'll repeat it with you going anticlockwise and Lily going clockwise. 

But first, teach her to follow that clock circle by rewarding at Noon, 9, 6 and 3. Then once she's got it, and looking at you like duh. Send her to the Noon station, while you walk to your noon station away from her. Reward. Repeat through the clock. Repeat going both directions. Fade the clock stops. Fade the tape.

This trick could be easy button easy to train. Or extremely hard to train. I don't see much middle ground on this to be honest. I hope that helped.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

We're going to do rally next because it just looks like fun, fun, fun.


----------



## Countryboy

Click-N-Treat said:


> We're going to do rally next because it just looks like fun, fun, fun.


One tip for all in Novice classes... buy an inexpensive slip leash that you use ONLY for training and the ring. Your dance partner will catch on quick that this is the on-our-best-behaviour leash/collar. No staring at other dogs, no sniffing the floor, no distractions at all... it's Showtime!


----------



## poshandpoodles

lily cd re said:


> I have no problem with others that involve the dogs doing spins next to me, but can't think how I will teach having the dog do a circle next to me while I am also moving. Ideas on this will be most welcome.
> 
> 
> *319. Side by Side **360°Right Circle - **While heeling, the dog and handler will stop forward motion and make a **360° side by side right circle**.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *320. Side by Side **360°Left Circle - **While heeling, the dog and handler will stop forward motion and make a **360° side by side left circle*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​


I'm going to try this at home (Moses is home with his dad right now since he doesn't have work today or else I'd try this idea now).

I would attempt to use a treat to guide them through the circle motion while moving at the same time. You can swtich the treat behind your back or to the other hand for them to follow. It sounds like it will be a unbalanced mess the first few times but after they get the hang of it, it should be much easier. 
I'd move the treat around similar to how I learned to teach finish right. 

I'm trying to think of what verbal command would work best for these. Any ideas?


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Noelle has learned that her service dog jacket means something special. Normally, she howls like a, well, poodle, the second she sees my daughter. This joyful howl is hilarious, and I was worried she would howl when I picked up my daughter at work. Noelle didn't even greet her, let alone howl. Noelle knows if she is wearing her best behavior suit to be on her bestest behavior.

I will get a brand new collar and leash for training class. This will be her bestest behavior collar. It won't take long for that to mean something. Good idea! It's a subtle cue, but a powerful one for a dog that takes in such subtle info.


----------



## lily cd re

For a very long time (over 6 years now) I have always used the leash that is being used as a cue for working vs. fun time. This includes orders for "get dressed" to put on the particular things needed for what we are doing. Tracking people are especially inclined to ritualize that behavior since it is telling the dog they will be leading and pulling and sniffing (all things we normally tend to discourage).

Countryboy I am not sure if you were talking to me about the basic concepts of teaching rally or not, but your advise to beginners is sound. Lily is working on an RAE9 so we have long since left those issues in the past. What I am really trying to figure out is how to teach a couple fo the new Masters class signs. Even though trials won't include the new classes until November 1st I want to teach all of the signs to Lily and I also expect to run a rally class to teach new signs over the summer. I have to figure out how to do signs 319 and 320. One is both handler and dog circling to the right, next to each other and the other is both circling to the left next to each other. 

I have had no luck being able to find an image of these signs to load so I will try a link. images.akc.org/pdf/events/rally/2017_Rally_Mini_Signs_w_Descriptions_030717.pdf?_ga=1.48458470.172790482.1478813941

If you scroll down to near the end you should see the signs I mean. Click-N-Treat, sign 321 is sort of what you were thinking about where dog and handler go in opposite directions as two concentric circles.

Click-N-Treat I am thinking that marking out a circle with the clock positions on it and sending the dog to each place to get the dog to circle in its own and then adding your own circle may be the way to do this. I can chalk it out on the floor at my club and try it there with Lily to see how it goes.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Clock, that's what I was thinking. Like I said, easy button easy, or extremely frustrating with no middle. I am so glad you gave yourself a whole lot of time to learn this one! Let me know how this works.

You know I'm always cheering for you, right?


----------



## Mysticrealm

I would teach my dog to circle first, then once that is on cue I would add me circling beside the dog, which from looking back sounds like what you're going to try


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Ah, there we go. The two clock circles, and the dance move in the middle. Shake your groove thing, Lily!

Oh, crap, now that song is stuck in my head... 
Shake your groove thing, shake your groove thing, yeah, yeah 
Show them how we do it now

Someone please smack me :ahhhhh:


----------



## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat I think you need to teach this to Lily since you also master ed the technology to get that picture in here! Uh duh on me, I can't tell you how many ways I tried to do that. Lily knows spin, but not a precise circle behavior unless we are doing a rally novice 360 left or 360 right. So I need to get her to do a precise complete circle (Javvy too) and then add my doing my own circle as you noted Mysticrealm, I think. I will try to get some videos as we go along so you can help me out.


----------



## Countryboy

Click-N-Treat said:


> I will get a brand new collar and leash for training class. This will be her bestest behavior collar. It won't take long for that to mean something. Good idea! It's a subtle cue, but a powerful one for a dog that takes in such subtle info.


Errrrrmmm, not. *Ducking now.* :ahhhhh: lol

I mentioned a slip collar/leash deliberately. Collars and leashes are collars and leashes... a slip noose is not. It's a COMPLETELY different feeling than a common collar around a dog's neck. It makes an instant impression.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Slip collars aren't allowed in my class. Prong collars aren't either. Just a flat buckle collar. Kind of annoying, but those are the rules.


----------



## Countryboy

Stupid people... 

Force me to conform to your stupid rules and I'll usually tell you to stuff it and then take you down. Fairly easy in a small town. :devil:

You?? Not being born a naturally and comfortably vindictive Scorpio, I guess you'll have to go with a new collar. 

I wouldn't bother with a new leash, a special collar should be enuf, hopefully.


----------



## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat slip collars are allowed (just can't be a one piece collar/leash). I have even seen people go into trial rings with slip chains for rally novice. Every time the judge hears the chain tighten they just ding the person for a tight leash without even having to look up. I tell all of my rally and beginner novice/novice obedience folks to either use a nylon slip collar or better yet a flat buckle or rolled leather collar that will make no noise. No point in making the judge have to decide about hose kinds of issues.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Slip collars and prong collars aren't allowed in this class. No training collars of any kind. Sometimes I wonder if this is a good class for us, but that's another thread.


----------



## lily cd re

Got it. I was thinking about trial rings. BTW I do not allow unlimited slip collars in my classes but do allow pinch collars (which are essentially modified martingales) as long as the handlers use my techniques for using the pinch collar or are already experienced handlers.


----------



## poshandpoodles

lily cd re said:


> Click-N-Treat slip collars are allowed (just can't be a one piece collar/leash). I have even seen people go into trial rings with slip chains for rally novice. Every time the judge hears the chain tighten they just ding the person for a tight leash without even having to look up. I tell all of my rally and beginner novice/novice obedience folks to either use a nylon slip collar or better yet a flat buckle or rolled leather collar that will make no noise. No point in making the judge have to decide about hose kinds of issues.


That is very interesting to hear! I'll make sure to make a note of that in the rally class I'm taking. I just got a martingale (with the chain) to provide better corrections. When it comes to actual rally exercises it's pretty easy for us to keep a loose leash. I'll make sure to watch for that with training and if I notice it becomes a problem, I'll get a modified one or switch to a flat buckle only for shows. I'm still figuring out the best collar/ leash set up for each task and performance event.


Lily cd re, as far as the signs 319 & 320 go I tried those out with Moses when I got home (I was excited to see how it'd go). 
I placed 2 throw pillows on the floor with enough space for us to walk around them. I then used the treat to guide him around as I walked around mine too. I'm sure you and Lily will pick it up much faster with your experience once you figure out the best way to teach it.


----------



## lily cd re

poshandpoodles thanks for that suggestion. That sounds like a good idea and we can make the circles small at first. I might use cones rather than pillows.


----------



## poshandpoodles

lily cd re said:


> poshandpoodles thanks for that suggestion. That sounds like a good idea and we can make the circles small at first. I might use cones rather than pillows.


Thanks. I think cones would definitely be better. I was just using what I had lying around the house haha! With Moses being our first spoo, we're slowly working up our inventory of dog supplies (grooming and training). 

Did you ever think of a command you'd give for this task?


----------



## Countryboy

At the time I bought Spud the leash he need a new short one. I wanted to make the BIGGEST change I could from his flat collar... so the slip lead. And I never encountered an event that it wasn't allowed. So I'm a little disappointed at increasing rules and regs. 

We all had the advantage of training in the breeder's yard and were allowed to use whatever suited us. Usually eight or ten of us there, and the breeder, I'm sure somebody would have said something if I was abusing Spuddie with the noose. There are some of us who are aware and gently leading our dogs, not choking them. 

I understand why, but I'm sad that we all must be treated like the lowest common denominator.


----------



## lily cd re

For signs 11 and 12 which are 360 deg right and left in novice, advanced and excellent along with signs 9 and 10 which are 270 deg right and 270 deg left I use the orders "circles" for the movements to the right and "back" for movements to the left. I doubt I will use those orders for those new signs since I want to cue our taking separate paths. I might use out circle and out back to indicate a separate path for the dog vs. me or I might use something like "loop out" and "loop back." First I have to install the behaviors though!


----------



## lily cd re

Countryboy said:


> At the time I bought Spud the leash he need a new short one. I wanted to make the BIGGEST change I could from his flat collar... so the slip lead. And I never encountered an event that it wasn't allowed. So I'm a little disappointed at increasing rules and regs.
> 
> We all had the advantage of training in the breeder's yard and were allowed to use whatever suited us. Usually eight or ten of us there, and the breeder, I'm sure somebody would have said something if I was abusing Spuddie with the noose. There are some of us who are aware and gently leading our dogs, not choking them.
> 
> I understand why, but I'm sad that we all must be treated like the lowest common denominator.


Countryboy I don't think it has anything to do with the combination slip lead collar being a problematic tool. It is all about that fact that the dog has to have a collar on in the ring. If you are doing rally advanced, excellent or masters, any agility or open or utility obedience there is no leash in the ring but the dog has to have a collar on. Additionally the dog has to enter and leave the ring with a leash attached to the collar. For Lily (whose work other than tracking is all off leash), my leash for rally might be a boot lace if I can't find her "pretty" slip leash (no buckle attachment), but she has to be connected from her collar to my hand with a leash and she has to have a collar on while working after I slip that lead out from under the collar.

Also I am talking about AKC rules and don't know if there are differences for CKC.


----------



## Countryboy

Well really, beyond Novice it's immaterial. 

The trick worked well for Spud, but it can't work for y'all. I didn't know that before, now I do!


----------



## lily cd re

I started teaching a short (3 session) rally master sign class last week. I am sort of happy to say that for all of us that pair of signs (360 side by side circles (#319 and 320) was agreed to be the biggest challenge of all those signs. 

I am also happy to say that in consultation with a few people and testing it out with a total of five dogs we have arrived at a way to teach these signs. Here it goes. Put out two cones or jump stanchions (for taller dogs) side by side with about two feet in between them. For 360 right put yourself between the two posts and the dog to the left of the left post. Hold cookies in two hands and start using your left hand with the cookie on the dog's nose to move them about halfway around the circle while you make your first half of your circle. You will now be on the outside of the right cone and the dog will be between them. Switch to having the cookie from your right hand on the dog's nose to keep them moving behind you and continue to the completion of the circle using a switch back to left hand cookie to get the dog to stay to the left of the left side cone and move forward from there. For the 360 left you make the opposite set up and alternate cookie switches.

My mom is part of the class and she came over with her mpoo Wolfie this morning to practice that sign and one or two others. She made great progress and Lily made some progress although she seems to want to put a spin into her last part of her circle. I think that is on me and the way I am making the second switch of my luring cuing hand, but we will get there.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

Ah, I knew you'd find a way! Thanks for sharing. I am very interested in starting Rally once Noelle is finally passed her CGC. If she is ever past it. Rally sounds like so much fun.


----------



## lily cd re

Click-N-Treat you will get the CGC for Noelle, I am sure of that!

When you get to rally I bet you two will kick ass. You have such an impressive deep and truly wonderful team relationship and that will translate fabulously into the rally ring. You and Noelle will have lots of fun.


----------



## Click-N-Treat

For the first time, Noelle and I feel like dance partners in public. She can cha-cha now and side step with me. It's very sweet to feel like we're in sync with one another, which is why I am looking forward to Rally in 2018. C'mon Noelle, sit when someone pets you. Sit, stay. You can do it. We're working on supervised separation. We're up to 30 seconds before she freaks out. Rally is my goal for us. We will have a ball. Thanks for your vote of confidence.


----------

