# Tips on attending first dog show as a spectator?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Looking at the premium you linked to this is a conformation only event. PCA also has obedience, rally, agility tracking and hunting events. Once the entries close on the 20th the secretary or superintendent will put together a judging program which will let you know when each variety is scheduled to start judging and which ring if there is more than one. Hopefully it will be posted on the CKC website for anyone to view, but you can also probably email the secretary around the 22nd or 23rd and ask for a copy. Have fun!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thank you for the tips and second pair of eyes! I didn't know what to look for, or that the schedule would come out later. I was hoping there would be other events than conformation, like agility, but it's all good! 

Maybe I'll do a search for agility events on the CKC website, I'm still figuring out where to see more poodles


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh and I should have said don't talk to handlers when they are getting ready to go in the ring! I've never looked at the CKC site, but if it is like AKCs site but if they are similar it should be easy to find any kind of show you might be interested in.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Take a folding chair - (many events only provide very few) unless it is forbidden. Buy the catalog (so you know who is who - via the armband). Talk to as many people as you can - don't bother them if they appear unfriendly - but the vast majority will be way chattier than you can imagine. Don't be afraid to use your own judgement. Walk up to the dogs and people YOU like. Identify yourself properly - if you are new to Poodles say so. If you are shopping for a breeder - tell them. If you are interested in showing - ditto. If you want "just a pet" please tell them. Breeders and handlers are experts who if shown a little respect are full of useful knowledge for you. Observe ring behavior - I always gravitate towards those teams that look like they are having fun. If you are looking for a future pup go by behavior more than confirmation. If this is a Specialty you can expect most of the dogs to be reasonably well built but temperament is great to assess at a show. You will see nervous and high strung but you will also see funny, goofy and just Happy to be there dogs - those are the ones I am always most interested in.
Wear good shoes- you will be on your feet a lot! If it is outdoors - wear a hat - the sun can be brutal in a dog show.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

More excellent advice, thank you so much Moni and lily cd re! It's very helpful!


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

Yes, take a folding chair! Also disinfectant wipes, some shows only have porter potties.

They don't announce groups or winners at conformation shows. The judge points quietly at the winner and 2nd and 3rd place and that's it. Sometimes it's good to put your folding chair right next to the stewards table (outside the ring of course), so you can see a little better who's winning. 

1st place gets their ribbon first, then 2nd, then 3rd. And they leave the ring as soon as the have their little ribbon. Those not placed often leave the ring before the 1st place, but even the winner leaves the ring very quickly. Unless you pay attention for those 5 seconds, you don't know who won.

Sadly, there's no commentator like at Westminster on TV. It can be disappointing if you're expecting that. Often you can find somebody by the ring who's more than happy to explain to you which group is showing and why some dogs go back in the ring. There's a lot of groups (young puppies, old puppies, adults, owner amateur, breeder, novice, specials, American, ... - and all separated by male and female). 

It's OK to talk outside of the ring. But no squeaky toys, and be mindful if you loudly unwrap food or make other noises that would get the dogs very distracted. 


Don't touch the poodles! You don't want to break their hairsprayed hair and they're not supposed to have any "oil" from your hand on their fur. E.g., my groomers says I can't pet my pup, only use the comb when we're getting ready for a show. 

Keep in mind that some handlers show multiple dogs, so even after showing they might need to run to get their next dog. 

Bring cash in case you need to pay for parking. Also for the catalog (usually $10-$15). There might be vendors where you can buy dog treats, leashes, combs and so on, but also dog themed knick knacks like poodle shaped door signs. 

Bring business cards or pen and paper if you're not super comfortable with your phone in a hurry. You probably want to write down some people's numbers and give out your contact info. Either because you're shopping for a dog or because somebody wants to give you more info about agility.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

BabetteH you added really useful details to our earlier answers! Thanks.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

BabetteH said:


> Yes, take a folding chair! Also disinfectant wipes, some shows only have porter potties.
> ......
> Bring business cards or pen and paper if you're not super comfortable with your phone in a hurry. You probably want to write down some people's numbers and give out your contact info. Either because you're shopping for a dog or because somebody wants to give you more info about agility.


Yes, excellent advice indeed - thank you so much Babette! These are the little details you don't know about until you try it


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

I just emailed the secretary for the judging schedule as per lily cd re's helpful suggestion and got a copy (it wasn't on the CKC website).

If anyone feels so inclined, I'd love to know what the numbers (and letters BP) beside and after the class (Toy, Miniature, Standard) mean...  Here's an excerpt:

POODLE CLUB OF CANADA
RING 1 - JUDGE: Leehy Packer
2:00 p.m. 
1 Poodle (Toy) 1-0-0-0
followed by:
8 Poodles (Miniature) 2-3-1-2 
3 BP - Poodles (Miniature) 2-1
18 Poodles (Standard) 7-2-4-5 
3 BP - Poodles (Standard) 2-1
followed by: Silent Auction (donations welcome)
followed by: Best in Specialty

Thank you!


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

dogs-bitches-champion dogs-champion bitches

Those numbers are important, as exhibitors see how many (grand) champion points they could get awarded. 

I think BP might be Beginner Puppy (4-6 month), not sure though. I've only seen the Beginner Puppy entries listed in the puppy section, not with the other poodles. If CKC allows parti-colored poodles, maybe they're judged separately like in Germany and P is for Parti?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

1 Poodle (Toy) 1-0-0-0
8 Poodles (Miniature) 2-3-1-2 
3 BP - Poodles (Miniature) 2-1
18 Poodles (Standard) 7-2-4-5 
3 BP - Poodles (Standard) 2-1

So this means:
1 male toy poodle who is a class dog, not a champion 

8 miniature poodles - 2 class dogs, 3 class bitches, 1 dog special, 2 bitch specials (the word "Class" means entered in a class other than best of breed) ("Specials" are champions of record who are entered in the best of breed competition)

3 miniature poodles in beginner puppy classes - 2 dogs and 1 bitch. No championship points are given in beginner puppy classes - beginner puppies are 4 to 6 months of age.

18 standard poodles - 7 class dogs, 2 class bitches, 4 dog specials, 5 bitch specials

3 beginner puppy standard poodles - same breakdown as minis


A "Best of Variety" is awarded in each size of poodle, the variety winners then compete for "Best of Breed" - only poodle specialties have a Best of Breed competition - at an all-breed show there are no best of breed competitions for breeds that have varieties (besides poodles, other breeds that have varieties are cockers, dachshunds, beagles, fox terriers, chihuahuas, English toy spaniels, Manchester terriers, and collies. I may have missed some of the rarer breeds.)

At a conformation dog show, dogs are not judged against each other, they are judged against the standard of the breed. The breed standard is maintained by the national breed club for that breed of dog. So the poodle standard is maintained by the Poodle Club of America. You can download a copy of the breed standard at: images.akc.org/pdf/breeds/standards/Poodle.pdf

There is much, much more to this. A really fun way to learn about showing poodles is to read some of the Laurien Berenson mysteries that center around dog shows and standard poodles. She always explains how dog shows work in each of her books. Another source of an overview is the "New Exhibitor Orientation Brochure" on the onofrio.com web site.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Johanna said:


> 1 Poodle (Toy) 1-0-0-0
> 8 Poodles (Miniature) 2-3-1-2
> 3 BP - Poodles (Miniature) 2-1
> 18 Poodles (Standard) 7-2-4-5
> ...


Wow, thank you very much for the detailed rundown Johanna. It's very cool, I'm really looking forward to it now that I know what the indicators mean. 

The novel suggestions and onofrio link are fantastic as well.

My only question now is, how does a toy poodle compete against itself? ;-)
Thanks again!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

My apologies, it appears from your post that the lone toy poodle would be judged against the poodle standard, not against other dogs anyway (as is the case with all of the others where there are multiple dogs competing).


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Poor little toy poodle - all alone! He can be awarded ribbons but cannot get any points unless he wins the toy group, not a likely scenario. It can happen - it happened to me once, but with a whippet, not a poodle. I got a single point on my whippet by winning the breed, but I also won the group that day and was awarded a 4 point major.

So here is how points work.

AKC has set up 15 "divisions". Each division is made up of one or mores states - the states in each division have similar entries at conformation shows. For example, Division 6 is Arizona and Colorado; Division 9 is California; Division 2 is Delaware, New Jersey, New York, and Pennsylvania.

Each year AKC counts the number of dogs of each breed that were shown in each division and from that count determines how many dogs it will take to earn 1 to 5 championship points. For male toy poodles in Division 6 this year, it takes 2 dogs for one point, 3 for 2 points, 4 for 3 points, 5 for 4 points, and 6 for 5 points. For female toy poodles, though, the numbers are 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. That's because more females were shown last year than males.

To obtain a championship, a dog must collect a total of 15 points, BUT, within that total of 15 there must be two major wins. A major is 3 or more points. Majors do not occur at most shows due to the number of dogs required for 3 or more points. This is not an accident - the idea is to make it reasonably difficult to become a champion.

Because more standard poodles than toy poodles are being shown in Division 6, the number of males per point is the same as for toys, but the number of females per point is 2, 5, 8, 9, 11. There are more standard females being shown than toys or minis.

Other divisions have different numbers - it all depends upon the number of dogs shown in the prior calendar year (the calendar year for points begins May 15th).

If a dog wins the group or best in show, s/he is awarded the highest number of point available for any breed entered that day. That's how I won a 4 point major on my whippet even though there were only 4 or 5 whippets entered. There was a major in another hound breed.

Finally, being awarded points is not a sure thing. Judges can withhold ribbons if the best dog is not, in the judge's opinion, not of sufficient merit. Here at our local show I once saw a judge withhold ribbons (and therefore points) in toy poodles because of the two dogs entered, neither was of sufficient quality to merit championship points. As a former judge, I can tell you that it is really painful to withhold ribbons for lack of merit. You have to tell some really nice person that although their dog is a sweet, lovely pet, it is just not a dog who should have a show ring career. 

Hope that's somewhat clearer than mud!


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

In AKC, you don't get any points for winning the group or Best in Show, see https://www.akc.org/sports/conformation/resources/counting-points/

So a lone toy poodle can't get a single point towards his championship. He still gets NOHS points and Puppy of Achievement points if applicable. Unless he's disqualified, he'll always win Best of Variety and advance to the group ring. There, he'll compete against the other dogs in the toy group (not against poodles). 

The exhibitor will either 

not to show the toy poodle if they can't get a point
show for the experience (puppy, traumatized dog, or novel exhibitor)
if they have a spectacular dog, they might do it because they hope to win the group and Best in Show (for fame, not for champion points)
show for NOHS points (important for ranking for NOHS finals) or Puppy of Achievement points

I showed before even though I knew there's no other poodle entered and I had no shot at winning the group. But I needed the experience and ended up meeting another poodle owner and now we coordinate entries so there's at least one point to have.

In FCI it's different: in addition to a placement you get a rating. You can get first place, but unless you got the highest rating, you don't advance to the group ring. And you can receive the equivalent of points even if you have the only toy, if you get a great rating.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Chapter 16 section 2 of "Rules Applying to Dog Shows":

SECTION 2. A dog which in its breed competition at a show shall have been placed Winners and which also shall have won its group class at the same show shall be awarded championship points figured at the highest point rating of any breed or recognized variety or height of any breed entered in the show and entitled to winners points in its group, or if it also shall have been designated Best in Show, shall be awarded championship points figured at the highest point rating of any breed or recognized variety or height of any breed entered and entitled to winners points in the show. The final points to be awarded under this section shall not be in addition to but inclusive of any points previously awarded the dog in its breed competition or under the provisions of this section.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

Thanks reraven! I only looked at the website and not the actual rule book. Good to know.

I can't edit my previous post  Now it'll have wrong information forever. Sorry everybody.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

BabetteH said:


> In AKC, you don't get any points for winning the group or Best in Show, see https://www.akc.org/sports/conformation/resources/counting-points/



Actually, you do. Here is the rule from Chapter 16:
SECTION 2. A dog which in its breed competition at a show shall have been placed Winners and which also shall have won its group class at the same show shall be awarded championship points figured at the highest point rating of any breed or recognized variety or height of any breed entered in the show and entitled to winners points in its group, or if it also shall have been designated Best in Show, shall be awarded championship points figured at the highest point rating of any breed or recognized variety or height of any breed entered and entitled to winners points in the show. The final points to be awarded under this section shall not be in addition to but inclusive of any points previously awarded the dog in its breed competition or under the provisions of this section.

Sorry, Reraven - I did not see that you had already posted this.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

The points system is much more intricate than I anticipated. I've been telling my husband about all of this purebred dog and poodle information I've been learning (from colour genes to health testing and now showing) and I think both our heads spin when I'm trying to explain what I know so far. But it's been fun, and it's a whole new world of learning that I'm enjoying. 

I can see it'll take some time for me to get acquainted with this points system as well ;-)

Thank you again everyone for taking the time to humour a beginner like myself.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Natural Poodle, we were all beginners once. Hang in there - it can be lots of fun!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Johanna said:


> Natural Poodle, we were all beginners once. Hang in there - it can be lots of fun!


Thanks Johanna, I am definitely having fun with it


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

it is complicated and it does take time to learn. Wry grin and I just got a puppy that falls under another set of rules then most breeds so now have to learn the TWO sets of rules that apply to him... (he is a misc breed for those wondering called a Teddy Roosevelt Terrier)


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Back in the 1980s when I showing my Himalayan cats at CFA events (one made championship), some breeders would bring their kittens for sale there. 

In the 1990s I went to several dog shows. The show breeders brought their business cards (that's how I connected with the one that later sold me my first poodle!). I vaguely remember seeing puppies for sale, but that part was so long ago I'm not sure if I'm mixing it up with the kittens at CFA shows.

Do breeders who are showing at AKC or the CKC events nowadays bring any puppies they have for sale? I have urged a friend to attend one so at least she'll make contacts.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Vita said:


> Do breeders who are showing at AKC or the CKC events nowadays bring any puppies they have for sale? I have urged a friend to attend one so at least she'll make contacts.


I did see some young puppies at the show (but now "shown"), I'm not sure if they were for sale or not. But I'm kicking myself for not walking up to see them because I later found out they were by a breeder I'm interested in, but who was not in attendance.

It is a great place to meet breeders and poodle people though, that's for sure!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

By the way, I had such a wonderful time at the show last weekend, thank you everyone for your tips and information! It helped make some sense of what was going on.

I couldn't have been more excited to attend this show if I were going to see unicorns. It was such a joy to be around these stunning creatures. I think my husband enjoyed it more than he thought he would, which was a bonus as well. 

I have never been around such calm, well-behaved dogs in my life. I was actually quite surprised - is this just a show thing and they have the zoomies when they get home? Ha ha. But even a little 3-6 month pup I met in the parking lot afterward was so chill, it made me wonder if show dog lines are the calmest.

Any rules against posting photos of the event here?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

At all or (or almost all) AKC shows there will be a notice that no unentered dogs will be allowed on the premises. That precludes having puppies there. However people who travel to shows in a motor home often take puppies with them. They are usually parked in an area where they can have unentered dogs.

The primary reason for this rule is health. Young puppies are not fully immunized. So please do not ask someone to bring a puppy into the grooming area!

You asked if "dog show lines" are calmer. Generally speaking, that is true. People who breed for show and/or performance sports are going to focus strongly on temperament.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

Glad you enjoyed the show!

I see lots of people who bring dogs that are not entered. Some people bring their litter - they couldn't leave the litter home alone anyways. But as Johanna said, they set up the ex pen next to their motor home, not on the show grounds.

The show dogs are used to it. It's like business travelers vs somebody who only goes to an airport once every 5 years. Most likely the business traveler is much less excited about their trip, it's just routine. 

Dogs that can't handle the show atmosphere are usually retired very quickly. It's stressful for the owner, no fun for the dog, and they won't be successful, because they don't move nicely in the ring if they're scared, stressed, or aggressive.


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

Edit: the dogs at shows are also better behaved than your average group of dogs, because they are with professional handlers or experienced breeders. These people have better dog training skills than average Joe, so of course the dogs also behave better. 

Imagine taking 20 dogs from your neighborhood and match them with skilled dog trainers instead of their owners. I bet a meetup would be calmer, too. In fact, I know dogs in our breed handling class that are a wild mess with the owner. But they're well behaved with a handler - which is why we pay handlers because they have skills


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Interesting about the change in behaviour with show handlers, I would not have thought of that.

Thank you all for your helpful insight! I'm already looking forward to attending my next show


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