# Breeding blue to brown



## *tina*

If you breed a blue to brown, from what very little I understand, you will get fading browns, because of the dilute gene in the blue.


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## Tess

I agree with Tina.


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## Jeremy

Right I see, thanks for the reply.

What about breeding a white and black with the possibility of them producing browns ?


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## *tina*

I know that my dog is from a litter with two blues, a black and a brown, the brown was a dark brown and is now fading to a more cafe au lait color. That breeding was a blue (dam) and black (sire). My breeder is going for blues and blacks. I don't know that a white poodle can produce browns. Cbrand I believe breeds browns and knows brown breeders.


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## cbrand

Dogs in the Black spectrum: Black, Blue, Silver
Dogs in the Brown spectrum: Brown, Cafe, Silver Beige

Getting certain colors in dogs in not like mixing paint. Blue (and not just grizzled/faded Black) comes from a fading or silvering allele laid over Black. A stronger dose of this allele will produce more lightening of the color and thus Silver.

So a Blue, assuming the Blue carried a Brown gene, bred to a Brown would most likely produce Cafes. I know that the Alegria folks bred their Black bitch Monet to their fabulous Silver Beige and have gotten some wonderful Cafes.

Historically there was this idea in Browns and Blacks that only the darkest colors were desirable. There was a time where Blue dogs were dyed Black for the show ring. However, I think we have seen in the last few years that Blues and Silvers can be very competitive and that Cafes and Silver Beiges can be very, very pretty colors.


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## cbrand

Jeremy said:


> Right I see, thanks for the reply.
> 
> What about breeding a white and black with the possibility of them producing browns ?


Brown is a recessive color. You get Brown by either breeding Brown to Brown or two dogs of another color who happen to carry a recessive Brown gene.

You could get Brown from a Cream/Black breeding if both dogs carried a recessive Brown gene. However I think the Cream would have to be one of those Creams with a liver colored nose. This combination is a disqualifying color in Poodles and considered to be highly undesirable so a good Poodle breeder would not move forward with this sort of Poodle as a breeding dog.


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## Jeremy

Thanks for the explanation, guys. I do know that mixing colors in Poodle breeding is not like mixing colours in a paint palet. I didn't know, though, that blue was caused by having a mix of black/brown/white in the line, hence my question regarding blue - brown mating.

Would there be any risk of having a blue with liver points from such a mating?

As for my second question...if you take a black and an ice-white (not cream), both of whom carry brown genes, then presumably one could get brown puppies. However, would there also be a risk of poorly pigmented whites? Or would the brown gene not intefere with the white pup's pigmentation?


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## cbrand

Jeremy said:


> Thanks for the explanation, guys. I do know that mixing colors in Poodle breeding is not like mixing colours in a paint palet. I didn't know, though, that blue was caused by having a mix of black/brown/white in the line.


Sorry. I think we are crossing lines. Blue does NOT come from a mix of Black/Brown/White. It comes from a silvering or fading allele. This fading allele is obviously present in Blues and Silvers and Cafes and Silver Beiges, but it also seems to be present in Creams and Apricots. I have heard that years back people looking to improve and widen the Silver breeding pool actually bred to Apricots. 




> Would there be any risk of having a blue with liver points from such a mating?


It is impossible to have a Blue with liver points since a Blue dog is in the Black spectrum and Blacks/Blues/Silvers ALWAYS have black pigment. 



> As for my second question...if you take a black and an ice-white (not cream), both of whom carry brown genes, then presumably one could get brown puppies. However, would there also be a risk of poorly pigmented whites? Or would the brown gene not intefere with the white pup's pigmentation?


Yes it is possible to get Brown puppies from a White/Black breeding.

I will say have never seen an ice White Poodle (this is Poodle born with no hint of cream on the ears) with black pigment who carried Brown. I guess that it is genetically possible but it is exactly the kind of thing good Poodle breeders look to avoid. Look at this color chart:

http://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html

To get Brown, your ice White would need to be genetically Bbee bred to BbEE, BbEe, bbEE or bbEe. The Brown gene does indeed affect pigment because you run the risk of getting bbee dogs = Cream/White dogs with liver pigment.

Edited to ask.... who are you Jeremy? Could you tell us something about yourself? What is your interest in breeding?


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## Jeremy

Ah yes - I got completely mixed up those two ideas: Blue being a dilution of Black and being resultant of a Black/Brown/White mix. 

I've heard a number of apricot breeders say that breeding to a blue is the best outcross possible for apricot, since the blue usually brings in better type from black/white lines and the cover doesn't get totally covered up in the first generation (as with black), you don't have the risk of mismarks as with breeding to white, and you don't have the risk of liver points as with brown. Supposedly breeding to blue also improved the colour although I'm not too sure on that one.

Thanks for clarifying that bit about the risk of whites/creams with liver pigments. I agree its not ideal but it can happen when you mix white and black lines, where the black lines carry brown, and then you linebreed, potentially producing pups in all three colours. 

I am me  Lover and breeder of Poodles.


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## cbrand

Jeremy said:


> I've heard a number of apricot breeders say that breeding to a blue is the best outcross possible for apricot, since the blue usually brings in better type from black/white lines and the cover doesn't get totally covered up in the first generation (as with black), you don't have the risk of mismarks as with breeding to white, and you don't have the risk of liver points as with brown. Supposedly breeding to blue also improved the colour although I'm not too sure on that one.


I would think that breeding Blue to Apricot would NOT be the best idea because you run the risk of introducing a fading allele onto the Apricot which would lighten the color of your dogs. There is nothing wrong with this, but Apricot and Red breeders usually try to intensify their colors not dilute them to Cream.



> Thanks for clarifying that bit about the risk of whites/creams with liver pigments. I agree its not ideal but it can happen when you mix white and black lines, where the black lines carry brown, and then you linebreed, potentially producing pups in all three colours.


But this is why breeders color test their dogs and try to avoid a breeding that would produce all three colors. Really, unless you are talking about AMAZING Poodles who are big time winning Champions with out-of-this-world structure, pedigree and history of producing very high quality offspring (and there are some out there.... Alegria comes to mind), then why would you risk it? If your line carries all three colors.... outcross to a stud dog who does not carry the color you are trying to avoid.

In reality, all too often these mixed color breedings are done by BYBs doing convenience breedings between their own low quality, unfinished dogs.



> I am me  Lover and breeder of Poodles.


Ok....so enlighten us. What is your kennel name? What are you breeding?


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## Jeremy

Ah right - yeah that makes sense. I have heard that (about breeding to blue) from both Standard and Miniature breeders, I guess in general its better to get a cream and breed back into red/apricot line instead of taking a black and then trying to get an apricot from there. 

I wouldn't say all too often. No doubt BYB's cut alot of corners just to save money - I recall a "breeder" who had a whole range of different colored bitches, who were then bred to a couple of studs she had. She then kept a whole bunch of bitches from those breedings and bought in another single stud to mate to the next general :shocked: A complete mess really.

On the other hand, if you look over pedigrees from ALOT of top kennels, you will find such colour mixes - its very rare to find pure colour pedigrees, in all three sizes. And alot of times, health, temperament and type are sacrificed just for the sake of colour.

These last few days I was looking at a well known Champ stud who has children and grandchildren in black, brown, white, silver, blue, apricot, cream - the colour of his issue seems to depend more on the bitch he is bred to than on himself. IMHO this is beneficiary - breeders with different coloured bitches can take them to be bred to a top stud, or one of his sons, and bring in all the positive that they contribute, into their own line/colour gene pool.

I was "born" into Poodles, but tbh don't feel comfortable (yet?) revealing my identity on an internet forum. We'll see.


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## cbrand

> On the other hand, if you look over pedigrees from ALOT of top kennels, you will find such colour mixes - its very rare to find pure colour pedigrees, in all three sizes. And alot of times, health, temperament and type are sacrificed just for the sake of colour.


I personally don't know that many high quality studs who carry Black, Cream, Brown. I have sort of made it my hobby to ferret out the CH studs who carry a Brown gene. The ones that come to mind (I'm sure there are more) are:

CH Paradigm by Starlight
CH Alias Just Give Me a Wink
CH Safari Solaris
CH King's Champagne Taste

Just because the color is behind a dog does not mean that the dog carries that color. I have Apricot behind my Delilah but she does not carry a Cream/Apricot/Red gene.

[Quote}These last few days I was looking at a well known Champ stud who has children and grandchildren in black, brown, white, silver, blue, apricot, cream - the colour of his issue seems to depend more on the bitch he is bred to than on himself. IMHO this is beneficiary - breeders with different coloured bitches can take them to be bred to a top stud, or one of his sons, and bring in all the positive that they contribute, into their own line/colour gene pool.[/Quote] 

Was this CH King's Champagne Taste? I swear that dog carried every color imaginable. The only thing I haven't seen come down out of him is Red!



> I was "born" into Poodles, but tbh don't feel comfortable (yet?) revealing my identity on an internet forum. We'll see.


Huh?... OK then.


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## Jeremy

Kings Champagne Taste isn't who I was thinking about but he is a great example.
I believe looking back some of the Bel Tor's produced black/white/brown/apricot, and even further back some from the Blakeen/Labory/Nymphaea lines produced black/brown/silver/white/parti.

I need to research more but from memory I believe Alimar Raisin Cane and Montravia Tommy-Gun also produced black/brown/white. 
I remember Jocelyn Marjorie came from a mixed colour pedigree although I'm not sure if any of her sons/grandons produced all those colours.
Bibelot's Tall Dark and Handsome produced black/brown/blue/grey and had apricot and white grandkids too, and Afterglow Jamaica Me Crazy is perhaps the most recent example of a big winning dog who produces black, brown, blue, apricot, cream and white. 

I'm sure there's more, just need to take some time out and research more in-depth some pedigrees.


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## flyingduster

lol cbrand, I am curious as to who this Jeremy is too...



Jeremy said:


> I was "born" into Poodles, but tbh don't feel comfortable (yet?) revealing my identity on an internet forum. We'll see.


I can sorta understand you being a bit leary of saying who you are considering some of the reactions to certain breeders on here at times, but at the same time it's only the dodgy breeders who, IMO, should have any reason to be so secretive of their identity... hwell:


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## Jeremy

I didn't actually say I'm a breeder, just that I've been around Poodles since the cradle. Tbh I enjoy the ability to discuss and post in anonymity, both on here and other forums (not just pet ones) and don't feel I should provide my "credentials" just to prove that I'm not some dodgey backyard breeder or puppyfarmer. Its not as if I'm using Poodleforum to sell puppies or advertise myself. So take that as you will, I mean no harm but if that offends you guys then just feel free to ignore me.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jeremy said:


> Ah yes - I got completely mixed up those two ideas: Blue being a dilution of Black and being resultant of a Black/Brown/White mix.
> 
> I've heard a number of apricot breeders say that breeding to a blue is the best outcross possible for apricot, since the blue usually brings in better type from black/white lines and the cover doesn't get totally covered up in the first generation (as with black), you don't have the risk of mismarks as with breeding to white, and you don't have the risk of liver points as with brown. Supposedly breeding to blue also improved the colour although I'm not too sure on that one.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that bit about the risk of whites/creams with liver pigments. I agree its not ideal but it can happen when you mix white and black lines, where the black lines carry brown, and then you linebreed, potentially producing pups in all three colours.
> 
> I am me  Lover and breeder of Poodles.


But you DID say you are a breeder.


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## cbrand

Jeremy said:


> Kings Champagne Taste isn't who I was thinking about but he is a great example.
> I believe looking back some of the Bel Tor's produced black/white/brown/apricot, and even further back some from the Blakeen/Labory/Nymphaea lines produced black/brown/silver/white/parti.
> 
> I need to research more but from memory I believe Alimar Raisin Cane and Montravia Tommy-Gun also produced black/brown/white.
> I remember Jocelyn Marjorie came from a mixed colour pedigree although I'm not sure if any of her sons/grandons produced all those colours.
> Bibelot's Tall Dark and Handsome produced black/brown/blue/grey and had apricot and white grandkids too, and Afterglow Jamaica Me Crazy is perhaps the most recent example of a big winning dog who produces black, brown, blue, apricot, cream and white.
> 
> I'm sure there's more, just need to take some time out and research more in-depth some pedigrees.


Just a note.... with the exception of Afterglow Jamaica Me Crazy, all of the dogs you listed pre-date genetic color testing. I'm not sure that with these dogs that it was a conscious decision to mix these colors. I think it happened more by accident. 

In more modern Poodles it is unusual to find all three colors. Let's face it....it is hard enough to produce wonderful show quality puppies. The last thing you want as a breeder is to have your specials quality puppy born Cream with liver pigment!!! :doh:


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## Jeremy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> But you DID say you are a breeder.


LOL :loco: forgive me, I have been exhausted these last few days. I kinda am and kinda am not.


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## Jeremy

cbrand said:


> Just a note.... with the exception of Afterglow Jamaica Me Crazy, all of the dogs you listed pre-date genetic color testing. I'm not sure that with these dogs that it was a conscious decision to mix these colors. I think it happened more by accident.
> 
> In more modern Poodles it is unusual to find all three colors. Let's face it....it is hard enough to produce wonderful show quality puppies. The last thing you want as a breeder is to have your specials quality puppy born Cream with liver pigment!!! :doh:


That is true! Although looking at some of the matings I do think at least *some* were conscious decisions to bring in those lines into another colour gene pool. The Bel Tors are a famous case of where a black bitch (from a brown sire) bred to a white male was the foundation of an entire line, many of whose sires were able to produce all three colours (and sometimes more). Sometimes the mix has already been done by someone else back in the line and you have to work with what you have "inherited" pedigree-wise.


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## roxy25

flyingduster said:


> lol cbrand, I am curious as to who this Jeremy is too...
> 
> 
> I can sorta understand you being a bit leary of saying who you are considering some of the reactions to certain breeders on here at times, but at the same time it's only the dodgy breeders who, IMO, should have any reason to be so secretive of their identity... hwell:


I agree we will see what happens with this one LMAO !


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## Jeremy

roxy25 said:


> I agree we will see what happens with this one LMAO !


Exactly the kind of talk, together with the drama I've seen go on between regular posters on this forum, that makes me not be forthcoming. hwell: I'm not being "so secretive" I'm just not revealing who I am on the internet, which is my prerogative no? 

Poodles are not a profession, career or source of revenue for me. I love them and have bred occassionally in partnership.


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## roxy25

Jeremy said:


> Exactly the kind of talk, together with the drama I've seen go on between regular posters on this forum, that makes me not be forthcoming. hwell: I'm not being "so secretive" I'm just not revealing who I am on the internet, which is my prerogative no?


We have had SEVERAL breeders and people come on this forum and are not who they say they are. They have created several Alias to harass members of our community. 

You don't Have to tell us anything but don't expected people on here to never ask you questions. I think several people have asked questions and we have not one answer. I wanted to know what top red breeder bred to brown dogs ? it was not answered lol why not ? it has nothing to do with your Identity


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## Dogsinstyle

"That is true! Although looking at some of the matings I do think at least *some* were conscious decisions to bring in those lines into another colour gene pool. The Bel Tors are a famous case of where a black bitch (from a brown sire) bred to a white male was the foundation of an entire line, many of whose sires were able to produce all three colours (and sometimes more). Sometimes the mix has already been done by someone else back in the line and you have to work with what you have "inherited" pedigree-wise. "

What line was that? I was under the impression Becky Mason cut almost all her white dogs when they first started doing xrays- most were diagnosed with dysplasia.


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## Jeremy

Surely if I was harassing other posters the Mods would be on it and capable of dealing with it?

It wasn't a "top red breeder", rather a top breeder who began to breed reds. Unfortunately she passed away but the initial results were admirable. 

I have already answered that I was born into dogs, own them and have bred some litters in partnership, but am not a "breeder" in the sense that it is not my career/profession/source of revenue. 

Dogsinstyle this was the very start of Becky Mason's line: her first bitch Lowmont Lady Juliette (black), sired by Ch Blakeen Cyrano (brown), and bred to Sunstorm's Merry Messenger (white). She kept Drambuie (brown), who resembled Cyrano, and who was grandfather to her first ch, Beltore Bright Star, and to Ch Bel Tor Cloisonne too. She later bought in two other bitches, also going back to Cyrano, who produced the infamous sires Morceau Choisi (who produced black/brown/white) and Gigadibs (who produced black/white). Morceau Choisi was bred to Bright Star producing Am/Can Ch Bel Tor McCreery, sire of 39 Ch's and of several Top producers. She had a somewhat separate white line, starting with Blakeen Bonte - she bred Bonte to Lowmont Lord Dion (sire of Bright Star) and kept a cream, Bel Tor Cotton Candy, who in turn produced her first homebred to finish, Bel Tor Piaffe. I don't know for sure but I'd imagine that it was this second "purer" white line that she discontinued, since the merged Bright Star/Morceau Choisi/Gigadibs line carried on for a good many generations longer.


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