# Red Merle?



## CatholicCarry (Jul 9, 2021)

I know Merle has been discussed here quite thoroughly, but I keep coming across what seems like conflicting information about Merle ‘hiding’ in red/sable/apricot coats. My parents bred Aussie when I was young and had a very obvious red Merle stud dog. We owned several Merles, both blue & red, throughout the years, some were actually tri-colored Merles with a black & tan (phantom in Poodles, I believe) or red & tan/copper base coat that got merled with the Merle gene. Can anybody point me to more information on why red Merle is not a thing in these supposed ‘purebred’ Merle Poodles, or just explain it here? 

I also recall, back in the days before genetic testing for color was really a thing that the deafness and blindness in many merle-carrying dogs like the Aussie was actually a product of excessive white. In fact, if I recall correctly, the current AKC standard for Aussies only allows a certain amount/locations of white over the dog’s whole body with the base coat being any color—solid or merle. I think at least some of the other herding breeds with Merle also have white percentages allowable. Is the white amount/locations thing based on faulty understanding of double merles with their extra white or is it a different genetic defect? 

BTW I’m not suggesting Merle is a good thing or anything. I just happen to have a mostly Poodle and a 100% Aussie, so I like reading up on various aspects of both breeds.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I cant answer all of your questions but I know that in the Icelandic sheepdog exessive white is one of the only colour faults not allowed. I heard it was because of sickness associated with that colour. Merle does not exist within the Icelandic so it cant be that. But it was a long time ago that I read this so I cant be sure. 

However, regarding double merle I think its a mute point whether its the double merle or too much white which is the problem. Because the statistics regarding the health problems in double merle litters speak for themselves. If its true that its technically the exessive white but that double merle pairings produce these exessive whites in much higher percentage then the result is nevertheless the same.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Isnt deafness also a problem in white boxers?


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

"Red" merle Aussies are genetically brown. 

Color talk about different breeds can be very confusing. The same word gets applied to completely different genes. Red Dobermans and Aussies are genetically brown. True brown is called brown in poodles, chocolate in some breeds and liver in yet others. Blue in hounds and Dobermans is a different gene than the blue in poodles and Kerry Blue terriers.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Exactly as cowpony said. And to add, yes merle can be seen in in brown 'poodles', which is the same as a red Aussie.
One way to distinguish is to think about nose color. A genetically brown dog (whether it is called liver, red, chocolate, etc) will have the same color nose and eye rims (unless it has white in that area in which case it will be light pink, but you get the idea).
Red dogs can have black or brown noses.
Labs are a nice example of the three basic solid colors. They can be black or brown, or on the red spectrum. Genetic red can range from a very pale cream all the way to a deep rusty red. 
As far as the question about white. Like you, I also remember hearing that the location of the white was thought to be an issue. Something about the merling on the inside of the ear canal, and lack of pigment there being the issue. IIRC this can happen in normal merles, but is much more likely in double merles.
White poodles are different, because they don't actually lack pigment in the white areas- they still have fully black noses and eye rims, and don't have blue eyes.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Cowpony is right. What we call red in poodles is known as ee red. Liver/brown/chocolate may also be known as red in some breeds that lack ee red coloration. English shepherds (a close cousin to aussies that forbids merle) commonly come in ee red but it is very rare in aussies.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

From what I've the link between white and deafness is both complicated and not completely understood. As Starvt mentioned, there is a relationship between pigmentation and deafness. It has to do with the migration of cells during fetal development. The right cells need to end up in the right places. When things go wrong you can get blue eyes, lack of pigmentation, and structural abnormalities.

The problems pop up in lots of different species, but the effects can vary. It's pretty well known that blue eyed cats are frequently deaf. Blue eyed cats also tend to have a lot of white on their faces. I've heard some anecdotal stories of blue eyed, bald faced horses with impaired hearing; I don't know if anyone has done a serious study of the matter. I certainly have known blue eyed horses that reacted quite normally to sounds.

Blue eyed huskies and blue eyed humans usually have normal hearing; they also have normal pigmentation apart from the blue eyes. However, humans can have something called Waardenburg syndrome. People with this syndrome may have blue eyes, a white forelock or pale pigmentation, hearing issues, unusually wideset eyes, and/or an intestinal problem called Hirschprung disease. 

Among Quarter Horse and Paint Horse people the issues with the Frame Overo gene are well known. One copy of the gene gives pretty white spots. Two copies of the gene mean the foal will be born completely white and will die within a few days from malformed intestines. It's called Lethal White in horses.

So back to dogs, white coloring, and deafness. A white poodle is genetically red. The hair is simply very pale. It's not unusual for a white dog to be born pale cream and fade to icy white with maturity. No danger of any disorders related to excessive white, because the dog is not genetically white. A white poodle should have a dark nose and eye rims.

There are also multiple genes associated with white spots. It's pretty well known that deafness is associated the genes responsible for both merle and Dalmatian spotting. However, there are other genes responsible for white spots. From what I've read a white spotting gene can cause deafness in dogs, just as it can in cats. However, there are huge numbers of spotted dogs that have completely normal hearing.


----------



## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

I’ve been told extreme white in parti’s can also lead to deafness which is why most parti breeders will not breed them ( that the cause of the extreme white is a separate gene and not just the randomness of parti?) and pet them out. If the white is in the inner ear there can be a loss of hearing. I haven’t actually seen seen any post about deaf parti’s on all the forums I’m on only that it could happen. I’ve recently seen a very extreme parti puppy and the breeder petted him out but she said he did not have hearing problems ( though was not tested). That breeder said she would not repeat that breeding again because of the risk. 

It does not effect eye color like merle and does not cause blindness.


----------



## CatholicCarry (Jul 9, 2021)

I did a lot of reading last night & actually thought I’d answered my ‘red Merle’ question—it should be called brown Merle . Thanks for all the replies in addition to my reading. Genetics are crazy complex sometimes, so thanks for explaining what you know. In general I’m not a fan of multicolored or white marked animals (dog or horses) unless they’re solid with black skin (like a grey horse). I am kind of sad real Poodles don’t come in Merle because it’s the one exception I have to multicolor, although I seem like the heavily ticked black & white partis too.

BTW I have no idea why my autocorrect insists on capitalizing Merle…??

Thanks for your patience!


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

CatholicCarry said:


> BTW I have no idea why my autocorrect insists on capitalizing Merle…??


Probably because it is also used as a given name. Merle Haggard, Merle Norman, Merle Oberon, Merle Watson, etc....


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

CatholicCarry said:


> I did a lot of reading last night & actually thought I’d answered my ‘red Merle’ question—it should be called brown Merle . Thanks for all the replies in addition to my reading. Genetics are crazy complex sometimes, so thanks for explaining what you know. In general I’m not a fan of multicolored or white marked animals (dog or horses) unless they’re solid with black skin (like a grey horse). I am kind of sad real Poodles don’t come in Merle because it’s the one exception I have to multicolor, although I seem like the heavily ticked black & white partis too.
> 
> BTW I have no idea why my autocorrect insists on capitalizing Merle…??
> 
> Thanks for your patience!


Poodles do come in brindle, which can look somewhat similar to merle. It isn't terribly common but I know some good breeders work with the color. I also generally prefer the solids but every once in a while I see a lovely phantom or parti that makes me swoon.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

What about phantom poodles? I have to admit they are my favourite of the multicoloured poodles.


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I recently saw a parti (abstract?) spoo whose markings looked like a mantle patterned Great Dane and it made me gasp out loud. It was just gorgeous. I do have to say I love all the colors and was trying to talk dh into a white spoo to go with my black one (joking of course!!)


----------



## CatholicCarry (Jul 9, 2021)

I didn’t realize phantom counted as multi-colored. To me phantom is like a bay horse—still basically a solid color, just a pattern. I’d love a phantom! Especially one that kind of matched my son’s Aussie—she’s a black & tan tri-color With just a small bib and ’ankle’ socks in the front and toe tips in the back.


----------

