# An End to Fake Service Dogs?



## Countryboy

Great news on an issue that bugs all of us. Or a start, at least. It's about time that some jurisdiction started to police this scam. 

B.C. service-animal owners to require license as family pets increasingly passed off as guide dogs | National Post


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## ChantersMom

I saw that too last night. Well, at least in BC.


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## sweetheartsrodeo

I think that is really awesome.


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## sunnyday

I don't know. I'm of many minds about this. I definitely get annoyed or frustrated by people claiming their untrained pets are service or support animals, or using "emotional support" as a reason to carry little dogs around or avoid housing rules about pets. But on the other hand I know someone who is Deafblind and has severe mobility problems (vertigo attacks) who trains her own service dogs to guide, alert, and provide stability. I can't imagine she'd appreciate having to jump through extra legal hoops just to be able to carry out her ordinary daily life (for which her dogs are essential) or be accosted to produce a license every time she tried to go shopping. When you wear glasses in public, do clerks insist on seeing your prescription? It's not that far different.

"Program" trained dogs are not necessarily superior to owner-trained dogs, but this new legislation strongly favors the former. The person I know did test her dog's training with the help of a third party before considering her fully trained, but I am not sure that requiring some sort of a generic test would be relevant to the wide variety of functions that service dogs perform, and I'm not sure that making disabled people track down certified testers before they can have access to their own trained dogs in public, will do anything positive for their independence.

There's a fine line between improving public respect for service animals, and infringing on the rights of the disabled. I'm not sure where this legislation falls along that line.


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## itzmeigh

sunnyday said:


> When you wear glasses in public, do clerks insist on seeing your prescription? It's not that far different.



Oh but it is whole worldly different. It actually isn't even close to the same at all. 

I can pretty much lay money on the idea that your (general "you") glasses are not going to bite anyone or leave pee or poop on the floor. I doubt your glasses will get under the waitresses feet in a restaurant. Those glasses you have on aren't going to leave behind allergens or make another person feel uncomfortable because of their fear of glasses (I'm not talking about irrational fears here, I'm sure there is a glasses phobia, but let's not reach and grab.)

I could probably go on and on but I won't. 

I feel like there should be some way to certify service animals. I don't care who trains them, but there should be some way to certify them. And that's about where my thoughts run dry on the subject. As for proof, a simple microchip could solve that problem. But again, that's as far I my thoughts go on that. 

But without a certifying agency I have a hard time seeing what difference it makes if an animal is a "service animal" or not. Either dogs are allowed or they aren't. If you want to allow some and not others then you need a way to prove the ones that belong. 

I follow the rules. I don't take my dog in places because they aren't service animals. But boy there are some people out there who piss me right off with it! (90 year old Lady with the 150 pound GSD who out weighed you by 149 pounds making it impossible for you to control him in the super crazy busy store... I'm looking straight at you!! The only "service" that dog was providing was blocking the bathrooms in a very populated rest stop for travelers and pulling his owner anywhere she didn't want to go.)

I don't have the solution. I'm not suggesting that the proposed solution is the correct solution. But I do feel the service animal system is broken. (And I am not sure there is a fair way to fix it.)


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## Carley's Mom

I don't think anyone that has a dog that acts like a service dog will ever be asked about it, but for the guy that my sister and I ran into last fall with two huge GSD's that he could barely even walk they were so wild and I watched as one took a dump right in front to the door that he did not pick it up ... he might get asked and he should. (Both dogs had on the vest)


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## sweetheartsrodeo

I find it ironic that there is a link to register your SD for free in this thread. The system is broken, but I don't know how it would be fixed that it would not penalize someone at either end. Remington is constantly in training, so that he is 100% rock solid on his job. I cannot take a chance that he isn't, as I don't feel the changes in my blood sugar. We received a letter from a friend who also has a service dog, and she has her dog registered through an organization here in the US, and it requires information about training and gives a specific number to look up. If a person says they are part of this organization and their dog is out of control in public, if you let them know they will press some kind of charges for having a fake SD. Not sure how that works out, but found it interesting.


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## sunnyday

itzmeigh said:


> I can pretty much lay money on the idea that your (general "you") glasses are not going to bite anyone or leave pee or poop on the floor. I doubt your glasses will get under the waitresses feet in a restaurant. Those glasses you have on aren't going to leave behind allergens or make another person feel uncomfortable because of their fear of glasses (I'm not talking about irrational fears here, I'm sure there is a glasses phobia, but let's not reach and grab.)


A legitimate service dog can still have an upset stomach, leave its tail in someone's way, trigger allergies or bother the phobic. It's still a dog. But it's a dog that's been trained to provide some essential support that mitigates the effects of a federally protected disability. So there are really good reasons to protect the rights of the handler to go shopping or get on public transportation without interrogating them about the means they use to do it.

I kind of wonder if public education wouldn't work just as well. I don't think store owners know that they do have rights to ask a disruptive animal to leave, whether it's a service dog or not. They also don't have to permit animals who aren't *trained* to assist someone with a disability (ie. not just a supportive presence), and they do have the right to ask directly if the dog is required because of a disability. (You can't ask what the disability is or what the dog is trained to do though, so lying liars will still lie, but it's harder to lie to someone's face than "by omission" as when you brazenly walk a caped dog into an establishment.)

Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business


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## sweetheartsrodeo

I think that it is wonderful to be able to educate the public. I have wonderful ADA cards that I carry with me, and if someone has questions I am always ready to hand one out and talk about why I require a service dog, and what he does for me.  

Thank you for posting this CB! All the responses have made me think!


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## itzmeigh

sunnyday said:


> A legitimate service dog can still have an upset stomach, leave its tail in someone's way, trigger allergies or bother the phobic. It's still a dog. But it's a dog that's been trained to provide some essential support that mitigates the effects of a federally protected disability. So there are really good reasons to protect the rights of the handler to go shopping or get on public transportation without interrogating them about the means they use to do it.
> 
> 
> 
> I kind of wonder if public education wouldn't work just as well. I don't think store owners know that they do have rights to ask a disruptive animal to leave, whether it's a service dog or not. They also don't have to permit animals who aren't *trained* to assist someone with a disability (ie. not just a supportive presence), and they do have the right to ask directly if the dog is required because of a disability. (You can't ask what the disability is or what the dog is trained to do though, so lying liars will still lie, but it's harder to lie to someone's face than "by omission" as when you brazenly walk a caped dog into an establishment.)
> 
> 
> 
> Commonly Asked Questions About Service Animals in Places of Business



Well sure, but those are all one off things that can even happen to a human. (But also, I was really pointing out how a dog (service dog or not) can not be compared to a pair of glasses.) You could spill your drink or become sick and throw up or stick your foot out at the wrong moment or back into someone, your over use of fragrance can trigger an allergic reaction...

I am in no way arguing against service animals.

I actually feel the better choice is an all exclusive situation. Then there's nothing to prove. If an animal is causing a problem it can easily be asked to leave.

I'm not even proposing that anyone be interrogated. But if your service animal had to have some proof of certification then maybe less people would fake and less people who truly have service animals would have trouble having them in public. 

So basically, either regulate it or deregulate it because "self" regulation isn't working. 

But again, I don't have the perfect solution. I just only agree the current system is broken. 

Education is the key really. But at minimum wage I doubt you will find many employees who want to open THAT can of worms! I know I'd never take a chance to question someone with a "service dog" no matter how clear it was that the dog was doing no service. Which is exactly why that 150 pound GSD was towing his owner through the store. (Did I mention he hadn't been groomed in years and probably spent 80% of his time outside? He was dusty and there was hair EVERYWHERE! And really he wasn't poorly behaved. He just wasn't a service dog and shouldn't have been in the store.)


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## Indiana

It's the same as photocopying a handicap placard and putting it on one's vehicle's dashboard...it's shameful. If there's a (or some) central agency(s) to lend credibility to service dogs, that's great. If some dogs can challenge the exam and get a short-cut to the designation, who cares. As long as they are genuine service animals and not used as fake tickets to the front of the line, which is abhorrent.


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## Charmed

There are many obstacles to a national certification process. My biggest concern is not can my self trained dog pass a test. I am worried about how far I will have to travel to take the test, how much it will cost and how long it will take to schedule an appointment. All fifty states can't even come to an agreement about gun permits, do you think they would agree on service dogs without national intervention?


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## Countryboy

I hadn't really thought thru SunnyDay's point... more regulations. But more regulations are ONLY made necessary by cheaters. And catching up with cheaters was the point of my big grin in the OP. 

Self-gratification is one thing, but when it casts a slur on all of those to whom a service dog is a necessity, their personal gratification becomes distasteful. 

And to know that some are catering to these people who are so sure of their own 'exceptionalism' that they buy a fake vest, is unconscionable.

It may be more proper for a government to regulate the sale of vests and accoutrement to licensed groups only.


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## Mfmst

If you have a service dog, are the dog's expenses tax deductible as a medical expense? If so, maybe the IRS, or just the fear of a tax audit, could weed out some cheaters. I find the fake Internet badges and vests really offensive. If I ever find myself squeezed into an airline seat with a fake service dog in my row, I will report it to the FAA at the minimum. I hope the airlines scrutinize credentials, better than we seem to do on the ground...


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## service_spoo

Airlines are a whole other can of worms...People can bring their Emotional Support Animals on board, which are just pets, and not specially trained like service dogs are. And there are plenty of fakes there too. All you need to bring your ESA on board is a note from a mental health professional saying it's necessary for you to have your pet on the flight for emotional support. But people buy those fake online "certifications" complete with id tag and vest, which are all completely meaningless. They do it to get around airline pet fees. 

While there are many people who fake their pets as service dogs and emotional support animals, I am glad that the laws around service dogs are loose in the US. Most service dog programs cater to the blind, deaf, and physically disabled. It's fantastic that programs can help these people. But for people who have multiple disabilities or psychiatric disabilities, it can be almost impossible to find a program to help them, so they have to owner train. I have non combat PTSD, and there are hardly any programs in the US that provide PTSD dogs to non veterans. If there was an official certification, I would be worried about the hoops I'd have to jump through to make my service dog "official". Fees, waiting lists, etc. Programs would have the resources to hire a tester to certify their dogs for their clients, but owner-trainers would have a much harder time without the support and know-how of a service dog program. Creating an official certification sounds great on paper, but if you talk to service dog handlers, you begin to realize that it's not such a cut and dry solution. You can't unregulate everything either; that would leave it up to individual businesses to choose whether or not they allowed service dogs, which would be a disaster. It's really hard to know what the right solution is.


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## service_spoo

Mfmst said:


> If you have a service dog, are the dog's expenses tax deductible as a medical expense? If so, maybe the IRS, or just the fear of a tax audit, could weed out some cheaters.


My understanding of tax deductible medical expenses is that you can only start deducting them if the cost is over 7% of your yearly income. Service dogs are medical equipment, and therefore are tax deductible, but if they don't cost you 7+%, then you don't deduct them. (Please someone tell me if I'm mistaken here.)


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## spindledreams

Grin and may we please CERTIFY that you the general public will not deliberately run over my dog with your shopping cart, or grab my dog and squish and pull on his face because he is OMG just so f-ing adorable you have to squeeze and hug him, or reach out and yank on my dogs tail just because, or OMG why won't you let my kids or me pet him you heartless bitch or follow us around shouting about how dogs don't belong in the store or that my dog is a slave and he would be better off dead then working for me... 

Sigh my dog is owner trained, we have worked with a trainer and she does just what we need her to do. I am constantly being told she is better behaved then the program dogs. BUT under this law my dog would be a fake oh sorry not this dog but my next owner trained dog would be. 

Folks the law in the US IS TWENTY YEARS OLD!!!! IT COVERS WHAT IS AND IS NOT A SERVICE DOG, WHAT QUESTIONS YOU MAY ASK AND WHAT YOU MAY DO IF THE DOG IS NOT HOUSEBROKEN, NOT UNDER CONTROL AND IF YOU THINK THE DOG MAY HARM SOMEONE. 

IF and this is a very big IF folks were taught the law AND FOLLOWED IT ther would be no fakes or very few. There honestly is no need for us to make more rules and for sure there is no need for us to support a 1 size fits all group who still thinks that PTSD dogs are fakes... among other things.


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## patk

spindledreams, there is a difference, apparently, between the u.s. and canada on this issue. in the u.s., the ada is the law of the land (not of one city or state), and i don't see that changing. the whole point of the way the ada was written with regard to service animals was to accord respect to those who need service animals and not subject them to invasions of privacy. i am sure those involved in writing the regulations understood there would be a "cost" in terms of fakers, etc., and that a decision was made that that cost meant less than the cost to the disabled of having to jump through all kinds of hoops to help deal with their disabilities. i'll repeat the story i've used before: when golda meir was pm of israel, the subject of women being attacked on the streets came up. a proposal was put forward to impose a curfew on women out after 10pm. meir opposed it and killed it with one simple observation: "that would be punishing the victim and not the criminal." exactly.


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## Countryboy

spindledreams said:


> Grin and may we please CERTIFY that you the general public will not deliberately run over my dog with your shopping cart, or grab my dog and squish and pull on his face because he is OMG just so f-ing adorable you have to squeeze and hug him, or reach out and yank on my dogs tail just because, or OMG why won't you let my kids or me pet him you heartless bitch or follow us around shouting about how dogs don't belong in the store or that my dog is a slave and he would be better off dead then working for me...


Haha!  I suppose, eh?

I get away every year to take on Parking and Security at our local Folk Festival. Saturday nite, standing at the gate, I throw one of our fluorescent vests on Tonka with SECURITY in magic marker on the side... just to see people smile at the Security Poodle. 

Interesting to see the side of service dog owners... how they see things. And as usual, I agree with Indy. I very much dislike cheats... 

But I seem to have noticed that most 'real' service dogs have vests that look way more utilitarian/plain than the red or yellow or bright colours that I see in pet stores. With functioning service dogs, owner-trained or not, I suppose the user is more concerned with grip, handling, durability, ease of cleaning. Style and colour would fall further down the list of must-haves.

So I'd be wary of bright yellow vests with pink cowboy hats! lol


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## Mfmst

Service Dog Certification -- Spotting Fake Certification/Registration/ID | Service Dog Central
I hope the incidence of phony ESA dogs flying is less common than I thought, because a fake could displace a real ESA dog or service animal on a flight because of FAA cabin restrictions on the number allowed.


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## service_spoo

Countryboy said:


> But I seem to have noticed that most 'real' service dogs have vests that look way more utilitarian/plain than the red or yellow or bright colours that I see in pet stores. With functioning service dogs, owner-trained or not, I suppose the user is more concerned with grip, handling, durability, ease of cleaning. Style and colour would fall further down the list of must-haves.
> 
> So I'd be wary of bright yellow vests with pink cowboy hats! lol


Despite what you might think, you actually can't judge a service dog by what it's wearing. While many service dog handlers prefer to dress their dog plainly, some see their dog as a way to express themselves. I know of service dog teams who have harry potter patches on their vest, and others who dress their dog in hot pink. Believe it or not, the pic I attached is of a real seizure alert dog. Now, I don't agree with the decision to bring such attention to your service dog, but it's every handler's right to do so.


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## spindledreams

Totally agree looking at Jazz in her bright Yellow butterfly vest, or thinking of the tie dyed Poodle that one person works, or Bruce the painted Doberman or Muppet with her Animal patches or Gatsby in his matching Tardis vest and collar.
For many of us our dogs outfits are an extension of our likes and style so while many will have plain, drab utilitarian vests just as many will have carefully chosen colors and designs that the handlers think will make their dogs look great. Cost, FIT, durability are all important but so is a chance to express our own personalities.


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## Mfmst

That's the sad part - that we would be suspicious of a real service animal. Some of us get annoyed it a stranger asks, "Is that a full-blooded French Poodle?" I can imagine the outrageous, invasive comments service handlers could get thanks to the frauds. Now my flying nightmare is to be jammed in an aisle with an ESA pot bellied pig, real or fake!


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## FireStorm

I don't have a service dog, but if I did, you can bet it would have vests to match what I wore. I'm just like that...I couldn't handle it if we didn't match. Hans has plenty of harnesses and collars to choose from as it is, so I totally get that.

I do wonder, though, if all of the publicity about fake service dogs is making people quicker to assume that legitimate service dogs are fakes. I personally wouldn't ask someone about their dog...it is up to the business if there is a problem IMO. I mean, I don't go up to people and ask if they really need that wheelchair....

I'm not sure more regulation is the answer, either. It seems like at least where I live the biggest problem is that businesses don't understand how the current law works, and the differences between a service dog and an ESA. As it is now, at least here in the US, a disruptive dog can be asked to leave anyway, so there is some protection for businesses, if they understand the law. And if poorly behaved dogs were consistently asked to leave, then perhaps people would stop bringing their poorly behaved dogs places. If the dog is acting like a real service dog, then it shouldn't be a problem anyway. I get that people can be allergic, but I'm super allergic to cats. If you have a cat and stand near me I can tell because that is enough to trigger my allergies. But I don't go around suggesting that people who own cats shouldn't be allowed places because of my allergies.

I have an aqcuantiance that owns a restaurant, and she just posted a huge rant on Facebook about service dogs...apparently someone came to her restaurant with (of all things) a Spoo service dog. She was sure the dog was a faker, since it wasn't a breed that she imagined could be used as a service dog. She was convinced that service dogs for anxiety, PTSD, etc, were ESAs, because those were "emotional conditions." She was not getting that the difference was dogs trained to perform tasks vs. not trained to perform any tasks. 

The thing about more regulation that concerns me is that I would hate to see someone who needs a service dog be unable to get one, or get their dog certified, because of some regulatory hoops they have to jump through. Most of my family is military or retired military, and through them I've met a few veterans with PTSD service dogs. Those dogs are literally life savers for those guys. And if anyone in my family was going through that, I would want them to have the option of having a dog. 

One thing that rubbed me the wrong way was the photo of the Facebook post with the pit. I know a lot of folks on this forum hate pit bulls, but I've met a legitimate pit bull service dog, and she was a very well trained and behaved girl and she provides a real service for her owner. Plus, I don't see how being 80 and drunk automatically means that someone couldn't have PTSD...anyone can end up with PTSD, not just soldiers, and there are plenty of older Vietnam veterans that still struggle. I have no clue wether that dog in the photo was legitimate or not, but the tone of the post bothered me.


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## Countryboy

Its maybe important to remember that I don't use a service dog. This is an issue that affects only those who need and use one. And you can bet your bippy that I'm on your side... not the side of the scammers.

Now I understand that photos of service dogs that I've seen, in utilitarian looking vests, are not always the norm. Thanks  

But maybe now I'll step back and see what people actually involved in the situation will do about this issue.


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## spindledreams

Countryboy I can totally understand your confusion when CCI gets worldwide coverage with articles like this one: Advocates Fight against fake service dogs

A nice rebuttal article that will sadly see only limited distribution is this one "There Are No Fake Vests"

The fact of the matter is that for reasons only know to themselves CCI and ADI have been pushing the "fake service dog" as a major issue but at the same time nearly every article about fakes talks about how easy it is to fake and basically are a how to fake a service dog. Sigh In my area fakes are not a problem and I would never even know they exist EXECPT for the Internet. Many folks say they don't have major problems but the ones that do are not surprisingly those who live near a major program... and some of them are more concerned about the under trained program dogs being released then any "fake service dogs". In my area again it is not the fakes that are a problem but those under trained program dogs that are turned loose with a handler who has little to no idea how to keep them under control. It is really sad when I am repeatedly told my little owner trained girl is the best behaved service dog they have seen... we have 4 major programs close to us including one in my city. And I can still count on both hands how many other handlers I have run into while out and about (most of those have been at the VA)


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## Markbthompson

*fakes and more*



FireStorm said:


> I don't have a service dog, but if I did, you can bet it would have vests to match what I wore. I'm just like that...I couldn't handle it if we didn't match. Hans has plenty of harnesses and collars to choose from as it is, so I totally get that.
> 
> I do wonder, though, if all of the publicity about fake service dogs is making people quicker to assume that legitimate service dogs are fakes. I personally wouldn't ask someone about their dog...it is up to the business if there is a problem IMO. I mean, I don't go up to people and ask if they really need that wheelchair....
> 
> I'm not sure more regulation is the answer, either. It seems like at least where I live the biggest problem is that businesses don't understand how the current law works, and the differences between a service dog and an ESA. As it is now, at least here in the US, a disruptive dog can be asked to leave anyway, so there is some protection for businesses, if they understand the law. And if poorly behaved dogs were consistently asked to leave, then perhaps people would stop bringing their poorly behaved dogs places. If the dog is acting like a real service dog, then it shouldn't be a problem anyway. I get that people can be allergic, but I'm super allergic to cats. If you have a cat and stand near me I can tell because that is enough to trigger my allergies. But I don't go around suggesting that people who own cats shouldn't be allowed places because of my allergies.
> 
> I have an aqcuantiance that owns a restaurant, and she just posted a huge rant on Facebook about service dogs...apparently someone came to her restaurant with (of all things) a Spoo service dog. She was sure the dog was a faker, since it wasn't a breed that she imagined could be used as a service dog. She was convinced that service dogs for anxiety, PTSD, etc, were ESAs, because those were "emotional conditions." She was not getting that the difference was dogs trained to perform tasks vs. not trained to perform any tasks.
> 
> The thing about more regulation that concerns me is that I would hate to see someone who needs a service dog be unable to get one, or get their dog certified, because of some regulatory hoops they have to jump through. Most of my family is military or retired military, and through them I've met a few veterans with PTSD service dogs. Those dogs are literally life savers for those guys. And if anyone in my family was going through that, I would want them to have the option of having a dog.
> 
> One thing that rubbed me the wrong way was the photo of the Facebook post with the pit. I know a lot of folks on this forum hate pit bulls, but I've met a legitimate pit bull service dog, and she was a very well trained and behaved girl and she provides a real service for her owner. Plus, I don't see how being 80 and drunk automatically means that someone couldn't have PTSD...anyone can end up with PTSD, not just soldiers, and there are plenty of older Vietnam veterans that still struggle. I have no clue wether that dog in the photo was legitimate or not, but the tone of the post bothered me.


With the organization I have my SPOO with, they insist on red vest and leash, plus specific patches. She is my second DAD. Over 36 weeks of PAT training and 500 hours of nose work to get her where she was fit for public use. I have 7-8 grand in her, I didn't get her from the pound and throw a vest from Amazon on her.

I'm sick of these "registered" dogs with US Service Dog Registry, never met a legitimate dog with them but the owners are quick to pull it out. I saw a pit with a homemade vest rip the leash out of the owner's hand and go jump on another patron at a restaurant and when they questioned him he had that paper out faster than you can bat an eye, meanwhile the dog was running wild sniffing at tables for food. 

At the casinos I frequent, they ask for papers now because everyone brings in their USSDR papers with their dog in strollers, etc. Other than argue with them, I produce my dog's wallet card from SDI to get in. 

I gave my local grocer the latest FAQ from the ADA because so many dogs were riding in the baskets and it clearly states they shouldn't be, either they walk or are carried. 

Yes, fakes are a problem, they make it harder on the rest of us and that USSDR thing is out of control. 

Here is the solution, and it is free. Have doctors hand out a wallet card that simply states " This person is Disabled pursuant to the Americans with Disabilities Act". No definition of the disability is required, this will eliminate 90% of the fakes. Then treat the dog as a medical necessity, just like a walker or cane. I don't think SDI should get rich forcing people who owner train to pay them for certification. I already have a trainer, but she isn't on their payroll.

Comments?


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## Markbthompson

*Cci*

I meant CCI, not SDI.


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## snow0160

They need to do this in the United States. Some counties ie Miami Dade County do require licenses for SD. I met a girl kept telling me about her online registration for her ESA so she could fly her dog without charge. For those of us who are legally blind deaf or disabled in some other way, the leniency seems awful. For public access ADI has a lot of standards you must pass to be allowed in public. I train with a program and they give you ID cards from their program so you aren't just a person with a vest and card.


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## Markbthompson

I have a wallet card and a copy of a registered letter from Sugar Dogs Int, in her vest all the time just in case. I never needed either until the USSDR popped up. All of these so called registrations are a joke now, they'd register Scooby Doo for $40. I've seen 3 fakes this week, and I've just been in a gas station and grocery, other than work. They are easy to spot.
I think my doctor card is a brilliant idea so it will never happen.


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## Click-N-Treat

What a load of bs those registries are. A pet in a vest is not a service dog. I'm working incredibly hard at training Noelle to do low blood sugar alerts and behave in public. Everyone who brings a badly trained pet in a vest out in public makes us look bad. Waving an official looking badge around doesn't magically transform untrained Fido into a service dog. It's the training specifically toward mitigating a disability that makes all the difference. And that takes hours and hours of training. 

Plus those crucial minimum of 30 hours of public access manners practice is no joke. This doesn't mean hauling the dog with on every random errand, but planned public exposures. I take Noelle, who is 13-months-old, on tiny missions in public. Go to the drug store, buy one thing, leave. Go to the grocery store, buy one thing, leave. I want to focus on training the dog in that space, not just hauling her around and ignoring her behavior because I'm too busy to notice what she's up to. Even though I am an owner trainer and not working with a program, I'm diligent and aware that everything Noelle does reflects on every team that follows us.

Tomorrow we're off on a two item trip to the dollar store. Yippee! We're logging in those 30 hours one trip at a time.


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## Markbthompson

*It gets better*



Click-N-Treat said:


> What a load of bs those registries are. A pet in a vest is not a service dog. I'm working incredibly hard at training Noelle to do low blood sugar alerts and behave in public. Everyone who brings a badly trained pet in a vest out in public makes us look bad. Waving an official looking badge around doesn't magically transform untrained Fido into a service dog. It's the training specifically toward mitigating a disability that makes all the difference. And that takes hours and hours of training.
> 
> Plus those crucial minimum of 30 hours of public access manners practice is no joke. This doesn't mean hauling the dog with on every random errand, but planned public exposures. I take Noelle, who is 13-months-old, on tiny missions in public. Go to the drug store, buy one thing, leave. Go to the grocery store, buy one thing, leave. I want to focus on training the dog in that space, not just hauling her around and ignoring her behavior because I'm too busy to notice what she's up to. Even though I am an owner trainer and not working with a program, I'm diligent and aware that everything Noelle does reflects on every team that follows us.
> 
> Tomorrow we're off on a two item trip to the dollar store. Yippee! We're logging in those 30 hours one trip at a time.


In time you will be doing full grocery visits, dinners in nice restaurants, and finally, to work all day. Hope is 4 now and goes everywhere. The first few days at work she got tired around the 5 hour mark until I adjusted some things for her. Now our daily journeys up the elevators or stairs, the 1-2 hour meetings,the walking schedule, the occasional person touching her from behind and startling her, her tail accidentally touched while in a down, it all happens. Dogs have good and bad days just like us, she may be perfect for days and grumpy or hard-headed the next. 

The fakes don't experience it all, just a sample and they think it is great, but since most don't even have a disability the dogs aren't at work. Having a true working dog by your side 24 hours a day is a lot of work, requires planning and patience, and can be quit challenging. In the past week the dog has alerted to 3 highs and a low at work, while remaining as inconspicuous as possible. Sure I get stupid questions like " is it bring your dog to work day?" From outside my dept. I have to clean up our little potty area outside rain or shine. I have to pack treats for alerts, extra test strips, her water bottle, and be ready to educate people with questions, even though most are more interested in her being a SPOO and not a Labradoodle.


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## Michele

I have a service dog spoo. He lived with a trainer for over a year (pup-1 1/2 year) before meeting us then continued training back and forth for a few months. 

He is now 2.5. I have MS and he is trained for mobility and several tasks (get the medical bag, pull the laundry basket, open the door, turn on the light, ....) but I can say he is still not always perfect. One day when he was 2 we were out at a festival and there were so many dogs and chaos there that he was pulling his leash like crazy. I took off his vest and put it in the car because it was so embarrassing, lol. That was very unusual as his is usually perfect when we are out. He is still on the younger side and had an off day. The point is that can happen....service dogs can have off days too. 

Our new pup will eventually be trained to be a service dog when we can get passed the normal pup problems and she is much more mature. She will not go away Long term but be trained locally (same trainer) in our home. 

AUGUST has all of his credentials. I only put him in a service vest Occassionally. I dont prefer to bring attention to my MS, which would typically be unknown to people. A vest doesn't make a service dog and neither does where or by who it was trained. It's the dog being able to complete a task helpful to the person. 

I totally agree that if a service dogs behavior is not appropriate for the setting they should not be allowed to stay. A good owner should recognize this and leave accordingly.

If any regulation where to occur, my opinion would be an outside "tester" who comes to the home to do a quick witness/evaluation of the dog doing its tasks. Short and sweet. I also think the person could be issued some sort of state or dr issued disability card for their wallet (no different than a parking permit) to show they have a verified disability. It doesn't have to list what it is, no different than a parking permit. 

As a person with a disability and a service dog, I would be agreeable to either of those things.


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## Markbthompson

I called the ADA hotline asking how to make suggestions as they don't have the form online. She said to hit the complaint form and use it for suggestions, and put no one in the field for who it is against. 
I think the wallet card would eliminate the fakes, and it doesn't need to state the disability. Since a doctor would have to issue it, with their Federal ID attached, any fraudulent use would go back on them so they wouldn't dish them out like candy. Then the dog is a medical instrument as intended by the ADA in the first place.


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle is my successor dog. I had an owner trained SD for 12 years prior. Noelle is 13 months, so she's still very, very, VERY young. I swear she's 75% puppy. So, we're doing small missions so she can be successful. I want to focus on her behavior, and not on the errand I'm running. A lot of service dog organizations don't take the dog back from the puppy raiser until they're 16 months old for a reason! We're practicing and working hard.

Noelle's blood glucose alerts are strong and I'm pleased she'll help me find those sneaky lows. Public access manners, yes those are tricky to train.

I hear you about the off days. Honey had a few of those. Once she refused to get in an elevator. I stood there looking at her like, who are you and why is this happening? The straining on the leash at a festival is actually pretty funny, although I'm sure you were mortified. 

I think, at minimum, the dog should be able to have a CGC, and to pass a simple public access test. Walk through a store without sniffing anything. Down under a table at a restaurant. Ignore food on the floor. Come when called if the leash is dropped. Recover from startle without barking, etc. If there was a legal requirement for this, most owner trainers would be proud to show off their dog's training.

Noelle is on her way. I let her just be a puppy instead of heavily training her when she was young. I put my old SD in a hot house when she was a puppy, and it interrupted our relationship because I got frustrated with her when she acted, well, like a puppy. Instead, I worked on basic manners and deep bonding with Noelle. Noelle started alerting to low blood sugar at six months, without training. I started scent training with her a few weeks ago, and now her alerts are very strong. We've only been training for SD work for about 6 weeks, and she's really showing me she's got what it takes.


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## snow0160

I think CGC is the bare minimum. 
This is a video of ADI Public Access Test




If you notice, this dog's training is only for behavior in public and not yet for actual SD tasks. To me, a dog who has passed the public access is just a very well behaved dog. 

Here is a psychiatric service dog. This dog is clearly task trained and very well trained. 






For my program, you do 
1. Basic Obedience
2. CGC 
3. Public Access
4. SD task training.
The process takes 6 months to 2 years depending on owner and dog.

IMO, any dog given enough patience can be a service dog. Some are just a lot harder to train than others. I think CCI disqualifies dogs that take too long to go through the training program. 

I've seen a lot of CCI dogs. There is a CCI headquarters here in Orlando. I've seen a CCI golden retriever lunge and growl at a pet dog at the grocery store. I think what people don't realize is that SD training and Public access is something you maintain throughout a dog's life. If you know how to train dogs yourself, owner trained SD are the best.


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## Click-N-Treat

Ah, we went out of order a little bit. 

1. AKC Star Puppy.
2. CGC class (utter failure, too friendly to sit for petting and wanted to cuddle)
3. SD alert training
4. Public access practice
5. CGC 
6. Public Access Test

We'll get the CGC very soon. She's almost ready to get through the sit for petting part of the test. Mostly, she's way too happy and silly. Although, I've seen much calmer behavior in the past month. Calm and adult like one minute. Wild and puppy like the next. We'll take another CGC class after Christmas and see how she goes.


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## Markbthompson

We didn't do the official PAT, the closest one to me is almost 3 hours and she insisted on using an escalator. I'm not able to use them, plus there is the safety factor for the dog getting hurt. SDI said the test should be customizable and NO ESCALATORS but that tester is basically a "meet at mall once a month, do these 5 things, pay me $175, you pass" tester and I refused. My trainer has trained SD for 10 years and she said she was ready, that was good enough for me until someone makes me pass that stupid test. We have the rest.


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## snow0160

Markbthompson said:


> We didn't do the official PAT, the closest one to me is almost 3 hours and she insisted on using an escalator. I'm not able to use them, plus there is the safety factor for the dog getting hurt. SDI said the test should be customizable and NO ESCALATORS but that tester is basically a "meet at mall once a month, do these 5 things, pay me $175, you pass" tester and I refused. My trainer has trained SD for 10 years and she said she was ready, that was good enough for me until someone makes me pass that stupid test. We have the rest.




That is awful bc the test takes less than an hour. You don't need the evaluator to tell you what your dog needs to do. Escalators are very controversial in the SD community because it can cause injury. For short haired dogs I wouldn't mind but a poodle is a bit different. I don't think escalators are part of ADI public access test.


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## Click-N-Treat

There's no way I'm training Noelle to use an escalator. Far too risky. See the escalator, watch it move, ignore the escalator, yes. But ride it with the risk of paw injury? Absolutely not.

Right now, Noelle could pass more than half of the test. We need to work on.
1. People approaching from behind and maintaining a sit/stay.
2. Down and stay no matter what, especially if someone pets her. OMG, too wiggly.
3. Restaurant, since we've never been to one. 

Right now, Noelle's idea of a down/stay is. "I'll down and stay right here, until this interesting thing happens, and then I'll get up and see what that is, and ooh, that's right, I'm supposed to be lying down, so I'll lie back down, but what was that interesting thing that just happened, I think I'll get up and see."

We can do lovely down stays at home. We can do lovely down stays in class, we even won a long down/stay competition in class. But, out in the real world? OMG, this is so not working right now. 

We'll get there, though. Like I said, Noelle is young yet.


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## lily cd re

Wow, even though neither of my poodles is an SD or SD in training (and I am grateful for not needing them to be so) they are very well trained and they are both fine with elevators, but I can't imagine ever expecting either of them to use an escalator. Markbthompson that sounds very unfair and even like a violation of the ADA to require you to test your dog on a task you won't and can't use or expect.


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## Markbthompson

The ADA doesn't require any tests at all, it just shows the greed involved with these so called certifications and what CCI wants to impose on anyone wanting to use a SD. It's all about the $ and if they manage to make it mandatory you can bet the price will go up. 

The ADA considers the dog a medical necessity and as long as the dog has a "trained task", it qualifies. Dancing around or licking isn't a trained task, a lot of people call that their alert but it isn't since it wasn't taught, you need to convert that action to a trained task such as a paw tap or nose push on hand or leg. That is the beauty of the ADA, but people abuse anything good. 

So, we have fakes running around giving us a bad name, CCI in it for the money, to address something that could be resolved with a wallet card costing a quarter or less. The solution is so simple it won't happen, we'll end up required to pass an annual test for around $250 when its all said and done. SD testing will become the next vehicle emissions test against the disabled. It will get down to pay your money, use your dog another year, another expense on people who can't afford it.


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## Click-N-Treat

Right now, Noelle jumps up on me when I'm low. She dances around and licks me. She's only 18 pounds and I know what she means. I have had zero luck teaching her to nose tap my leg. Any tips on how to train that? I don't mind the frantic leaping and licking because she only does it when I'm low, but something more subtle would be helpful. 

Ideas?


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> Right now, Noelle jumps up on me when I'm low. She dances around and licks me. She's only 18 pounds and I know what she means. I have had zero luck teaching her to nose tap my leg. Any tips on how to train that? I don't mind the frantic leaping and licking because she only does it when I'm low, but something more subtle would be helpful.
> 
> Ideas?




Yes, it's pretty simple. You teach the touch command first. One way is to hide a treat in your hand and when the dog shows an interest, wait until they nose the hand or paws it, say touch, and give the treat. You want the dog to associate the word touch with your hand..You can google teaching a dog to target for more examples. I took it from my hand to my leg by putting my hand on my leg, saying touch and moving the hand so she was putting her paw on my leg . My dog uses her paws a lot, so it was easier than the nose touch, plus she is 55 pounds. Once you get a good working touch, however you want it for the alert, and she is dancing, put her in a sit, say touch, then give the treat when she does it. Then test to confirm, always. You want her to associate the treat, with the touch, which needs to be her reaction to the low or high. Worked fine on this dog, my last dog tended to false alarm for treats and she loved attention so I'd play with her after an alert. Her alert was like yours, she'd climb in my face and lick me, but we seldom went out in public or work, she died before 2 from Addison's and she was just getting close to working well then too.

If you have a Kindle or Kindle reader, you can get Teamwork and Teamwork 2 on Amazon in ereader form fairly reasonable. You may want to find a SD trainer, even if they don't do sugar training,to help fine tune some things. An hour or two with a trainer can save you weeks of time of trial and error. Look at Karen Pryor Academy for trainers certified in their system, which is treat based, no choke collar junk.


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## Markbthompson

Markbthompson said:


> Yes, it's pretty simple. You teach the touch command first. One way is to hide a treat in your hand and when the dog shows an interest, wait until they nose the hand or paws it, say touch, and give the treat. You want the dog to associate the word touch with your hand..You can google teaching a dog to target for more examples. I took it from my hand to my leg by putting my hand on my leg, saying touch and moving the hand so she was putting her paw on my leg . My dog uses her paws a lot, so it was easier than the nose touch, plus she is 55 pounds. Once you get a good working touch, however you want it for the alert, and she is dancing, put her in a sit, say touch, then give the treat when she does it. Then test to confirm, always. You want her to associate the treat, with the touch, which needs to be her reaction to the low or high. Worked fine on this dog, my last dog tended to false alarm for treats and she loved attention so I'd play with her after an alert. Her alert was like yours, she'd climb in my face and lick me, but we seldom went out in public or work, she died before 2 from Addison's and she was just getting close to working well then too.
> 
> If you have a Kindle or Kindle reader, you can get Teamwork and Teamwork 2 on Amazon in ereader form fairly reasonable. You may want to find a SD trainer, even if they don't do sugar training,to help fine tune some things. An hour or two with a trainer can save you weeks of time of trial and error. Look at Karen Pryor Academy for trainers certified in their system, which is treat based, no choke collar junk.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




What you are getting is a spontaneous alert, something poodles are known for. Up to 70% I believe is the number, spontaneous alert for diabetics, that why you see so many used. 
I always thought that was enough too until a trainer explained " trained task" to me. I knew what she was trying to tell me. About half the DADs out there in public I've met, that is all they do too, and technically that doesn't qualify. in my case, she does a leg touch below 90, above 180. Fine tuning can take 6-12 months.
Also you can google NIDAD( national inst diabetic alert dogs) video. They have free training videos online to tune the dog using Salava samples on cotton balls. 7-8 videos, they cover it well and it's free.you only need cotton balls, mason jars, and some tins with holes in them


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle does recognize the low saliva sample. So, we do have the nose part started. I gave her a choice between low and 11 other distraction scents. She zeroed in on the low in a second. When I gave her a choice between low and normal, Noelle picked up the normal container and flung it on the floor. Then she picked up the low container and flung it in my lap. It made me laugh. The nose knows. I've hidden the scent pad on me and Noelle has reacted to it. Unfortunately, her reaction isn't what I want.

Alert refinement is what we're going to work on this week. Smell this, do that. Not smell this, act like a lunatic! Thanks for your suggestions, that helps a lot.

I do have a clicker trainer near me who has experience training service dogs. I'm saving funds so I can work with her in January. Thanks for the help. Time to train.


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## Markbthompson

Maybe you can incorporate a bringsel? Hope started bringing me a test kit before we started training, I knew that wouldn't work out in public so I started putting them out of reach but you could leave a bringsel out at home and clip it to you when out so if she tugged on it that would work.


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle is a mini, so she would have to jump on me to get a bringsel. Paws up is a different story when you're dealing with a 18 pound dog. And I could train a paws up and hold it as an alert signal since I'm dealing with a little dog. It's the training that matters, not the alert signal itself. If you trained, smell this, do ___ then you have a trained task. It could be stare into my eyes and wave a paw. It could be bump knee with nose. What I'm interested in is a signal that I recognize that wouldn't disturb the public.
Leaping like a lunatic would be disruptive on an airplane. 

Still, Noelle has caught 8 lows. Since I don't feel low until I'm in the low 50's, Noelle catching me at 70 is incredibly helpful.


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> Noelle is a mini, so she would have to jump on me to get a bringsel. Paws up is a different story when you're dealing with a 18 pound dog. And I could train a paws up and hold it as an alert signal since I'm dealing with a little dog. It's the training that matters, not the alert signal itself. If you trained, smell this, do ___ then you have a trained task. It could be stare into my eyes and wave a paw. It could be bump knee with nose. What I'm interested in is a signal that I recognize that wouldn't disturb the public.
> Leaping like a lunatic would be disruptive on an airplane.
> 
> Still, Noelle has caught 8 lows. Since I don't feel low until I'm in the low 50's, Noelle catching me at 70 is incredibly helpful.




True, sorry I forgot how small she is.I can't pick up a dog so loading and unloading is much easier with the large dog for me.SDI recommends the small poodles, they have so few SPOO in the group they didn't have a vest to fit her so they sent me patches.

I'm totally unaware of both, no symptoms at all. Before the dogs I collapsed twice on vacation and once at work, even with diligently testing 4 times a day and eating on a schedule. It took a lot of work to get mine to alert at 90 instead of 75 but when I'm dropping I can drop 35-45 in 10 minutes. It's comforting to know when she alerts I have 30 minutes to deal with it either way. 

Hope has alerted 4 times in the past week at work, and woke me once. If she wakes me and after she is sure I'm getting up, she goes to the other room and wakes my wife up by jumping in her bed. Never taught her that part.

I stopped logging, she is well over 300 alerts in 4 years. I'd been dead long ago without her. I work long hours, my typical day is 4-4 and she gets tired by the end of our day. She only sleeps about an hour at a time, and always with her nose near me. I think her dedication is amazing.


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## FireStorm

Click-n-Treat, I used this video to teach Hans "touch." I've since used it as a foundation to teach him a few other things, and he got to the point where he would press and hold his nose against my hand pretty quickly (I can walk around with him holding the contact). It might be something you can use with Noelle, if you haven't seen it already. Here is the link:


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## snow0160

FireStorm said:


> Click-n-Treat, I used this video to teach Hans "touch." I've since used it as a foundation to teach him a few other things, and he got to the point where he would press and hold his nose against my hand pretty quickly (I can walk around with him holding the contact). It might be something you can use with Noelle, if you haven't seen it already. Here is the link: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RWSJVwZybwo




This is one of the most useful trick Lucky knows. I taught him touch and then to ring bells and to close cabinet doors. I would love for him to learn how to turn off the light switch. Paw was also useful. He paws me when the phone rings.


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle will touch my hand on command. She won't touch my leg with her nose and I'm unsure how to get her to do that. Maybe put some tape on my hand, train her to touch the tape on my hand and slowly put tape on my leg?


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## FireStorm

I think tape or some other sort of target she can see is a good idea. When I transitioned the touch concept to something new (the first thing after my hand actually was a lightswitch because I thought it was a cool trick) I just presented it in a way that he would be naturally inclined to approach/sniff it, clicked for any movement towards it, then refined from there. I rewarded for touches, and any time he accidentally flipped the switch I gave him a jackpot (multiple treats). It didn't take him long to realize how to get more treats.

Maybe just putting something on your leg that would draw her curiousity would work? If she's anything like Hans, you only need to get her started in the right direction and she'll catch on really fast once she realizes what's happening.


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## Click-N-Treat

Noelle now touches my leg in response to scenting low blood sugar. WOW, that was fast. I put a piece of tape on my palm and on my knee. I clicked when she touched my palm. Then I moved my hand over the tape on my knee. I clicked when she touched that. I removed my hand and clicked when she touched the tape on my knee. I removed the tape and she still tapped my knee, so I gave a treat jackpot.

Once she did that for a while, I introduced low blood sugar scent, and waited for her to tap my knee. Scent, tap, click, treat. Move somewhere else. Scent, tap, click, treat. Then she offered a paw on my knee, so I gave another treat jackpot. 

Now, when Noelle smells the scent pad, she paws at my knee. I'll have to wait for a low, or trigger one with my insulin pump, and wait to see if she taps my knee. However, no more wild jumping licking, crazy dog is good.

It's funny, I tried training this same task five months ago and failed. Tonight it worked almost instantly. Fun how puppies transform into dogs. Thanks Noelle, you made me proud. And thanks for the suggestions. We're on our way.


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## snow0160

Click-N-Treat said:


> Noelle now touches my leg in response to scenting low blood sugar. WOW, that was fast. I put a piece of tape on my palm and on my knee. I clicked when she touched my palm. Then I moved my hand over the tape on my knee. I clicked when she touched that. I removed my hand and clicked when she touched the tape on my knee. I removed the tape and she still tapped my knee, so I gave a treat jackpot.
> 
> Once she did that for a while, I introduced low blood sugar scent, and waited for her to tap my knee. Scent, tap, click, treat. Move somewhere else. Scent, tap, click, treat. Then she offered a paw on my knee, so I gave another treat jackpot.
> 
> Now, when Noelle smells the scent pad, she paws at my knee. I'll have to wait for a low, or trigger one with my insulin pump, and wait to see if she taps my knee. However, no more wild jumping licking, crazy dog is good.
> 
> It's funny, I tried training this same task five months ago and failed. Tonight it worked almost instantly. Fun how puppies transform into dogs. Thanks Noelle, you made me proud. And thanks for the suggestions. We're on our way.




I use post it notes instead of tape. It is amazing what these dogs know. Lucky keeps licking my horrible wound after I fell from the ladder. It is like somehow he knows. 


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## kontiki

Here are the official links for the ADA on Service Animals, and for the US DOJ interpretation of it. 

They are actually dated July 12, 2011 (in the lower left hand corner) to be the most up to date after the law was changed March 15, 2011 to only cover dogs, with in some instances miniature horses.

Here is the *ADA* (American's with Disabilities Act) *Service Animal* law brief: *www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm*

Here is how the *US DOJ* (US Department of Justice) interprets it, with examples to clarify some of the items that were frequently misunderstood: 
*FAQ Service Animals and the ADA* : *https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
*


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## snow0160

kontiki said:


> Here are the official links for the ADA on Service Animals, and for the US DOJ interpretation of it.
> 
> They are actually dated July 12, 2011 (in the lower left hand corner) to be the most up to date after the law was changed March 15, 2011 to only cover dogs, with in some instances miniature horses.
> 
> Here is the *ADA* (American's with Disabilities Act) *Service Animal* law brief: *www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm*
> 
> Here is how the *US DOJ* (US Department of Justice) interprets it, with examples to clarify some of the items that were frequently misunderstood:
> *FAQ Service Animals and the ADA* : *https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html
> *




The subsection on miniature horses as service animals seem interesting. I've never heard of horses as service animals before.


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## Markbthompson

Mfmst said:


> That's the sad part - that we would be suspicious of a real service animal. Some of us get annoyed it a stranger asks, "Is that a full-blooded French Poodle?" I can imagine the outrageous, invasive comments service handlers could get thanks to the frauds. Now my flying nightmare is to be jammed in an aisle with an ESA pot bellied pig, real or fake!


Love the "French" poodle part since they were originally bred in Germany, try using an apricot SPOO as a SD, you hear, love your GoldenDoodle 50 times a day. I get that, LabraDoodle? is she still in training? You don't look sick, what is wrong with you? as well as people making noises trying to distract her or get her to bark, people send their kids running at her to pet without asking. 

It's something different every day. I even changes patches to "low blood sugar alert" from "diabetic alert" because people asked me how much insulin the dog needed.


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## Click-N-Treat

That's funny that everyone assumes your dog is a diabetic. How ridiculous is that??? I just took Noelle with me to my Endo appointment. Super happy with how she's doing, and I got a doctor's letter that I require my dog, which was awesome. Again, only needed if I was to get sued, not something I would show someone. But if there was ever a fraud charge, or I ended up in court, my dog is officially medically necessary. A1C is down, insulin use is down. Exercising Noelle is helping me a ton. Yay for diabetes alert dogs. They rock.


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> That's funny that everyone assumes your dog is a diabetic. How ridiculous is that??? I just took Noelle with me to my Endo appointment. Super happy with how she's doing, and I got a doctor's letter that I require my dog, which was awesome. Again, only needed if I was to get sued, not something I would show someone. But if there was ever a fraud charge, or I ended up in court, my dog is officially medically necessary. A1C is down, insulin use is down. Exercising Noelle is helping me a ton. Yay for diabetes alert dogs. They rock.




Mine goes to all the doctor appts, it's funny when the dentist finishes and backs away, she comes from her down and climbs up to check my breath immediately. 
My Endo wanted me on insulin 5 years ago but with diet, exercise , the dogs, and good old Metformin, I've avoided it. Using her at work dropped my A1C by 1 point over a year thrilling the doc and I.


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## Click-N-Treat

I'm a type 1. Insulin is my only option. My immune system wrecked my pancreas. But, as a type 2, staying off insulin is an accomplishment. And so is an A1c below 7. Keep up the great work. You're rocking this.


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> I'm a type 1. Insulin is my only option. My immune system wrecked my pancreas. But, as a type 2, staying off insulin is an accomplishment. And so is an A1c below 7. Keep up the great work. You're rocking this.




I'm sort of in that new 1.5 group, some days the pancreas works, some days very little. I've had friends go from a 2 to a 1 from the pancreas pusher meds and I have them just try to not use them unless I'm way high. I'm trying to maintain where I am as long as possible, the dogs are due to my not feeling any lows or highs, no symptoms at all. 
I came across poodles by accident actually, we rescued a 4 month old SPOO that a breeder couldn't sell and she spontaneous alerted to a 62 within a month. That got me reading on the subject and poodles, we had Shih Tzus up to then. I like the larger poodles because they can load into my truck or car on their own, get in and out of my tall country bed to go get help if needed too.


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## SusanG

I don't have a disability, but I'm afraid to fly and I always get vertigo (BPPV) from the changes in altitude. I am very uncomfortable and stressed flying alone, and the older I get the worse it is. My daughter in Texas is mad at me because I haven't been there for a few years. If I have to go alone, I'd love to have my little Molly to sit on my lap the whole way because she is calming and sweet and soft. She makes me feel better. Callie I would not bring because she is not as comfortable with strangers, but Molly loves everyone and wants them to pet her. Do I need to do something to make it legal to bring Molly? I know I can buy all the stuff on line, but I'd like to do it the right way.


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## Markbthompson

SusanG said:


> I don't have a disability, but I'm afraid to fly and I always get vertigo (BPPV) from the changes in altitude. I am very uncomfortable and stressed flying alone, and the older I get the worse it is. My daughter in Texas is mad at me because I haven't been there for a few years. If I have to go alone, I'd love to have my little Molly to sit on my lap the whole way because she is calming and sweet and soft. She makes me feel better. Callie I would not bring because she is not as comfortable with strangers, but Molly loves everyone and wants them to pet her. Do I need to do something to make it legal to bring Molly? I know I can buy all the stuff on line, but I'd like to do it the right way.




Flying is easy, doesn't need to be a true Service Dog. Under FAA rules an ESA can fly so get a doctor's letter saying you need the dog and preset it to the airline. I'd rather you do that than buy a SD vest and lie personally. Too many people claim ESA as Service dogs and they have had no training and don't really qualify.


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## lily cd re

SusanG here is a link that provides information you may find helpful in being able to bring Molly to fly with you.

https://adata.org/publication/service-animals-booklet


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## glorybeecosta

Indiana said:


> It's the same as photocopying a handicap placard and putting it on one's vehicle's dashboard...it's shameful. If there's a (or some) central agency(s) to lend credibility to service dogs, that's great. If some dogs can challenge the exam and get a short-cut to the designation, who cares. As long as they are genuine service animals and not used as fake tickets to the front of the line, which is abhorrent.


Should be treated same as handicap. I know people that have a parent that is handicap, ad they will use that sticker. Which I say, your know how lucky your are why would you even consider, taking a handicap place when you are health as a horse. I hate it, and if a service dog and you trained it get verification, but not the phoney. To be honest most dogs I have seen are better in public than most kids.


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## Markbthompson

Mfmst said:


> Service Dog Certification -- Spotting Fake Certification/Registration/ID | Service Dog Central
> I hope the incidence of phony ESA dogs flying is less common than I thought, because a fake could displace a real ESA dog or service animal on a flight because of FAA cabin restrictions on the number allowed.




It is this easy, or at least I read in a newspaper. You go online, fill out a simple form with your phone #, a "doctor " calls you that day, asks 4-5 questions like, does it bother you to be alone? Do you have a dog? Would your dog give you a better sense of well being ? 
Bills your cc )65-85 bucks and emails you a letter to print.

Sound legit to you?


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## Markbthompson

FireStorm said:


> I don't have a service dog, but if I did, you can bet it would have vests to match what I wore. I'm just like that...I couldn't handle it if we didn't match. Hans has plenty of harnesses and collars to choose from as it is, so I totally get that.
> 
> 
> 
> I do wonder, though, if all of the publicity about fake service dogs is making people quicker to assume that legitimate service dogs are fakes. I personally wouldn't ask someone about their dog...it is up to the business if there is a problem IMO. I mean, I don't go up to people and ask if they really need that wheelchair....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure more regulation is the answer, either. It seems like at least where I live the biggest problem is that businesses don't understand how the current law works, and the differences between a service dog and an ESA. As it is now, at least here in the US, a disruptive dog can be asked to leave anyway, so there is some protection for businesses, if they understand the law. And if poorly behaved dogs were consistently asked to leave, then perhaps people would stop bringing their poorly behaved dogs places. If the dog is acting like a real service dog, then it shouldn't be a problem anyway. I get that people can be allergic, but I'm super allergic to cats. If you have a cat and stand near me I can tell because that is enough to trigger my allergies. But I don't go around suggesting that people who own cats shouldn't be allowed places because of my allergies.
> 
> 
> 
> I have an aqcuantiance that owns a restaurant, and she just posted a huge rant on Facebook about service dogs...apparently someone came to her restaurant with (of all things) a Spoo service dog. She was sure the dog was a faker, since it wasn't a breed that she imagined could be used as a service dog. She was convinced that service dogs for anxiety, PTSD, etc, were ESAs, because those were "emotional conditions." She was not getting that the difference was dogs trained to perform tasks vs. not trained to perform any tasks.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing about more regulation that concerns me is that I would hate to see someone who needs a service dog be unable to get one, or get their dog certified, because of some regulatory hoops they have to jump through. Most of my family is military or retired military, and through them I've met a few veterans with PTSD service dogs. Those dogs are literally life savers for those guys. And if anyone in my family was going through that, I would want them to have the option of having a dog.
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that rubbed me the wrong way was the photo of the Facebook post with the pit. I know a lot of folks on this forum hate pit bulls, but I've met a legitimate pit bull service dog, and she was a very well trained and behaved girl and she provides a real service for her owner. Plus, I don't see how being 80 and drunk automatically means that someone couldn't have PTSD...anyone can end up with PTSD, not just soldiers, and there are plenty of older Vietnam veterans that still struggle. I have no clue wether that dog in the photo was legitimate or not, but the tone of the post bothered me.




Hate ? No , question their sensibility as a SD? Yes
Every dog has a purpose and an owner somewhere

You can blame it on this:
The last supposed pit SD I saw pulled the leash from the owners hand, knocked a lady down and ate her BarBQ before the owner got to him. The restaurant manager looked at him and b4 he could ask out came a US Service Dog Registry cert. The dog had in a filthy homemade vest with Service Dog written on it in marker. Dog and vest both had been rolling in mud somewhere. Wouldn't answer the 2 questions allowed, just kept waving that paper and saying service dog, wouldn't even pay for the ladies meal his dog knocked from her hands and was eating off the floor.
They served him, I left, disgusted.

You met 1, I met 1, see the difference?


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## Click-N-Treat

Service dog registries are phony. That's why if someone asks me if Noelle is a certified service dog, I say, no, she's a trained service dog. The Americans With Disabilities Act legally defines a service dog as "A service animal is a dog that is individually trained to do work or perform tasks for a person with a disability."

It's the training, not certification, that matters. So, let's see if Noelle qualifies as a service dog.

I am a type 1 diabetic who has had severe low blood sugar without warning. Type 1 diabetes is disabling for me. I can benefit from a service dog's help by warning me a low is coming before I pass out on the floor, have another seizure, or go into a coma.

Noelle will alert to low blood sugar by pawing my knee, or tapping my knee with her nose both at home and in public. (individually trained disability related task)
Noelle has had one year of training in public places.
Noelle will ignore the public, and sit and stay beside a pile of popcorn on the floor. 
Noelle has a Canine Good Citizen title.

This makes Noelle a service dog under the ADA and Illinois laws. It's not the vest. It's not a registry, it's not certification. It's training. I wish those registries and fake certification would go away.


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## Click-N-Treat

One reason i choose a poodle for a service dog was the public fear factor. I had a husky lab mix. Her pointy ears scared people and kids screamed. I didn't want a scary helper dog. Aw, cute dog, is much better for me.

I have met pitbulls that are delightful, funny, and very sweet. And I have read horror stories. I personally would feel threatened if a pitbull came into the store. I would take Noelle and leave. A lot of people feel like a pitbull service dog is like walking into the store with an AR-15 strapped to your back. Sure, you probably are harmless and not looking to shoot everyone in sight, but, then again.... 

Would I get on a flight if there was a pitbull ESA or Service Dog? No. I would make other arrangements. I can't risk Noelle's safety or my own. Is it legal to have a pitbull service dog, sure. But, why?


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> One reason i choose a poodle for a service dog was the public fear factor. I had a husky lab mix. Her pointy ears scared people and kids screamed. I didn't want a scary helper dog. Aw, cute dog, is much better for me.
> 
> I have met pitbulls that are delightful, funny, and very sweet. And I have read horror stories. I personally would feel threatened if a pitbull came into the store. I would take Noelle and leave. A lot of people feel like a pitbull service dog is like walking into the store with an AR-15 strapped to your back. Sure, you probably are harmless and not looking to shoot everyone in sight, but, then again....
> 
> Would I get on a flight if there was a pitbull ESA or Service Dog? No. I would make other arrangements. I can't risk Noelle's safety or my own. Is it legal to have a pitbull service dog, sure. But, why?




That answer is simple, because they can. 
They know the dog is intimidating, and in a lot of cases the dog is a fake but they are using The ADA or ESA to keep a dog in a neighborhood where the breed is banned as dangerous.

In the last 5 years, while on my own property, I've had 2 pits walking by break their chain, not leash, chain, and come after us while in our front yard. Fortunately I walk with a cane and used it to keep the dogs apart until the owners could get them by the collars. I also had a neighbor's pit jump through his picture window, go next door and attack a German Shepherd behind his underground fence. 75 stitches on the GS.

They may be sweet, I'll never trust one enough to find out.


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## SusanG

Click - Noelle is beautiful! You bring up a good point and sound reasoning about a poodle being a non-threatening breed as a service dog. Its a wonder more people haven't thought of that and more service dogs are not poodles. I've heard the same thing about pit bulls "oh he/she is very gentle" but when I see one, I go the other way because you never know and my little minis are vulnerable. Maybe a small percentage of pittys are dangerous, but they are known to all of a sudden and without provocation attack. A poodle - never. We camp and travel a lot. Most campgrounds don't allow pit bulls or certain other "protection type" breeds, for a reason.
It made me think back to that u-tube video of the woman going ballistic because a disabled vet brought his service dog shepherd into the restaurant. Maybe if he'd come in with a poodle she would have had a totally different reaction!
I wish there was somewhere nearby I could find a reasonably priced trainer to help me get Molly's GCC. I have not had much luck keeping her from jumping on people or pulling at her leash so she can greet other dogs - she loves everyone and every dog to excess. I need help.


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## lily cd re

SusanG do you live near either Albany of Syracuse?

In the Albany area I have a friend who I spend time with at shows who is a great trainer. Her name is Diane Blackman. Here is the link for her website. Albany NY Dog Training | Puppy Training Albany New York | Dog Behavior Modification | Dog Obedience Training

In the Syracuse area (east side of town, near Carrier Circle) there is Syracuse Obedience Training Club. I have many friends there and will probably be up there to show in January (weather permitting). https://www.sotc.info/


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## Markbthompson

*Great Dane*

It was a Great Dane, big loveable dog, that she went off about. 
It didn't matter the breed, she was looking to cause trouble no matter the breed. They were already leaving but she had to blame the dog, I wondered if they didn't like the menu or pricing and were just looking for an excuse to leave.


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## SusanG

I'm about 15 miles north of Albany. I'll check into it, thank you. I hope she isn't too expensive. I'm retired and its hard for me to foot the $75 per hour fees most trainers are charging. But its worth checking.


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## SusanG

I thought it was a shepherd - could be I'm thinking of a different one, because there seems to be more and more of those people. We used to take our dogs to the Liquor Warehouse - but no more because some woman screamed "allergic". The owner can't even bring his own dog to his acre sized warehouse store. Yeah, dog hair from my poodle is going to chase that woman down and jump into her nose even though it was a month ago I was there. Another example the woman who caused a problem on Southwest over a service dog and a ES dog, although they offered to move her - she lied saying she was allergic. Turned out her "religion" teaches dogs are dirty and she didn't want to be on the plane with one. She wanted the other people to leave! 
We used to bring our dogs to a restaurant with a patio, one special day a week until a woman complained. Ha ha on her - NY laws now allow dogs on restaurant patios!


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## lily cd re

SusanG said:


> I'm about 15 miles north of Albany. I'll check into it, thank you. I hope she isn't too expensive. I'm retired and its hard for me to foot the $75 per hour fees most trainers are charging. But its worth checking.



You don't need privates. Take a class and it will be affordable. I think her three week mini classes are about $80 for the three sessions.


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## Countryboy

SusanG said:


> I'm about 15 miles north of Albany. I'll check into it, thank you. I hope she isn't too expensive. I'm retired and its hard for me to foot the $75 per hour fees most trainers are charging. But its worth checking.





lily cd re said:


> You don't need privates. Take a class and it will be affordable. I think her three week mini classes are about $80 for the three sessions.


I was gonna say too that sometimes a local dog club will offer a CGC class. One night a week... over a month or so... something like that. I've seen a few people in the summer classes that our Kennel Club puts on... so it can't be that expensive.


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## lily cd re

Countryboy, yes my club periodically runs CGC classes with testing the last night of the six weeks for a reasonable cost. I am not familiar with clubs in the Albany area, but know the owner at All Dawgs in Albany and think she is a great trainer. That doesn't mean there isn't a club in that area that would have what you describe.


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## Click-N-Treat

Susan G,

Noelle and I have never worked with a private trainer. My old service dog Honey never worked with a private trainer, either. We did group classes for obedience training. You learn a lot in classes about how to talk to your dog, and how to carry yourself around your dog. 

Private lessons aren't needed for service dog work. Service dogs need three skills,
obedience, public manners, and tasks. None of these require a professional trainer. You need time, commitment, a good sense of humor, and string cheese to train a service dog, but not a professional trainer.


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## Markbthompson

Click-N-Treat said:


> Susan G,
> 
> Noelle and I have never worked with a private trainer. My old service dog Honey never worked with a private trainer, either. We did group classes for obedience training. You learn a lot in classes about how to talk to your dog, and how to carry yourself around your dog.
> 
> Private lessons aren't needed for service dog work. Service dogs need three skills,
> obedience, public manners, and tasks. None of these require a professional trainer. You need time, commitment, a good sense of humor, and string cheese to train a service dog, but not a professional trainer.




I did the same thing Click, 24 weeks of group classes. I was fortunate though that the last trainer did work with service dogs during the day and she gave me some additional advice, she even stayed late a few times after class to help me with some issues. I still email her occasionally if I'm having an issue for advice, like when I decided to ask for a work accommodation.


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## SusanG

I'll try to find local dog clubs again. Last year I found one and e-mailed and called twice and never got a response so maybe that one is no longer. Saratoga County is growing fast, but so far haven't found much. There is one good trainer here but she trains at the local boarding facility and I signed Molly up for puppy training. She was traumatized by the big dogs barking behind the walls, the smells in the big arena (obviously used to let the big dogs run free during the day) She's a good trainer, but unfortunately that is the only place she does her training, so that's out. Much too distracting an environment.
This area seems to be lab heaven - every other dog I see is a lab or lab mix! I haven't seen another poodle in months! Not that that matters since Molly is good with any dog she meets, big or small - she's just too enthusiastic in wanting to meet every dog, every person. I'm still hoping we can curb that eventually!


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## Mela D

spindledreams said:


> Countryboy I can totally understand your confusion when CCI gets worldwide coverage with articles like this one: Advocates Fight against fake service dogs
> 
> A nice rebuttal article that will sadly see only limited distribution is this one "There Are No Fake Vests"
> 
> The fact of the matter is that for reasons only know to themselves CCI and ADI have been pushing the "fake service dog" as a major issue but at the same time nearly every article about fakes talks about how easy it is to fake and basically are a how to fake a service dog. Sigh In my area fakes are not a problem and I would never even know they exist EXECPT for the Internet. Many folks say they don't have major problems but the ones that do are not surprisingly those who live near a major program... and some of them are more concerned about the under trained program dogs being released then any "fake service dogs". In my area again it is not the fakes that are a problem but those under trained program dogs that are turned loose with a handler who has little to no idea how to keep them under control. It is really sad when I am repeatedly told my little owner trained girl is the best behaved service dog they have seen... we have 4 major programs close to us including one in my city. And I can still count on both hands how many other handlers I have run into while out and about (most of those have been at the VA)


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