# Red Standards



## liljaker

Hello and welcome. Have you checked out the breeder with your local PCA club? That may be a good place to start. It could be that a particular breeder's pup had some issues and someone took to the internet to complain about it. Remember, even the best tested pups can still have health issues and rarely do people take to the internet/forums to say how healthy and great their dogs are --- except maybe on PF! Good luck with your search.


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## cavon

I wonder which breeder you were directed away from???


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## LFox

Yes, I have checked my local PCA club. However, there was only one breeder they recommended to me (within the south east at least) and for some reason, I still liked the other breeder better, plus her prices were about a thousand dollars more if I remember correctly. 

Cavon, I see you know the breeder whom I am interested in purchasing from. Bijou.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Breeders will have people who are over the moon happy with them, people who are ho-hum and people who are not happy with them. You have begun to do your homework. It is up to you as a consumer to do your due diligence and research like crazy. I would, in as many instances as possible, speak on the phone often, visit the home if you can and see where and how the pups are raised, look at the pedigrees of the pups being offered and Google some of the kennel names to see what you can pick up from there. I hope some of my puppy people will come on and give me a review. I'd love to hear where I can make improvements to make my families as happy as possible. Good luck in whomever you choose, and may you have a long, healthy, happy life with your future puppy, and a relationship with your future breeder that is rewarding and satisfying.


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## cavon

Hopefully a lot of red Standard owners will respond and post tons of pictures of all of their accomplishments with their pets!! 

I never get tired of seeing pictures of red poodles and their owners & breeders out there working their dogs and leaving the competition in their dust!!!!

*GO REDS GO!!!!!!!*


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## Angl

Here's my little munchkin, 12 weeks today.

Maddie









Sent from Petguide.com Free App

She's needing a brushing in this picture, but she had been playing in wet grass lol


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## spoo novice

I had planned on buying a brown from that breeder. I loved the website and they have many helpful hints and loads of information. 
However, in the end, we had some communication problems and, despite my pleading, she ignored my requests for her to call me on the phone. I was never was able to speak to her...only via email. In the end, she and I were both disgruntled and she elected to return my deposit and full payment rather than send my puppy. 
That being said, she seems to have a very successful program and some beautiful dogs. 
Perhaps Finnegan's mom would be a good resource for a referral and be able to respond to your concerns. 

In the end, I found a puppy within driving distance and a breeder I could talk with on the phone, email and see in person. That worked out better for me.


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## cavon

Probably worked out just as it should! Glad you found your pup!


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## liljaker

Gee, something else to think about. I'd probably have to think real hard about getting a pup from a breeder who has so many titles and champs in their line, you know? That's some standard to have to live up to with a new pup, you know? The pup definitely will not be happy being a couch potato!!! (lol)


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## LFox

I have looked all over for someone closer that I could physically visit to see the parents and premises, but I had no such luck finding one that I liked as much. 

I already have a deposit down with her and am awaiting hearing about her fall litter. There are some concerns when it comes to how I will get the pup down here (FL) because there are restrictions that won't allow the puppy to be shipped to Florida within certain months because of the heat. I think they can't ship again until after September or October! I need to look into other ways I would get the pup as well. 

Cavon, are you Finnegan's owner?

Thank you all to those who have responded, it is much appreciated and your spoos are beautiful!


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## Keithsomething

double post


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## Tiny Poodles

I'm a Tpoo person, so no almost nothing about Spoo breeders, but just had to pop into to echo what some others, and even you yourself said - in these days where ANYBODY can write disparaging things on the Internet, you really have to take negative comments with a grain of salt - do your own research, speak to them for yourself, see for yourself, and if you don't find anything that supports that negative comment, then go for it - you know like you would have done in the days before we could "google someone"!
In fact, for my own favorite Tpoo breeder, a very negative thing comes up if you "google her", but I sure as heck am not going to allow that to distort my perceptions of all the positive dealings that I, and people that I actually know have had with her!


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## Keithsomething

I think a great place to start is the apricot and red poodle club, they have a great referal service and the members are the BEST in our colour!

I'll be bringing home a girl very shortly that is out of Lido's lines and she's stunning :] with her breeders I know I can fall back on them for support whenever the need may arise, and also share with them all of the accomplishments we will do together. She's a BEAUTIFUL RED who (if everything goes according to plans) will be one of only a handful of red poodles to hold an AKC ch.

Maybe contact a few breeders further away from you, I know Tabatha at NOLA poodles just had a lovely litter of apricot and red puppies and may have some available :]

Heres a link to the ARPC.

Apricot and Red Poodle Club


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## Tiny Poodles

LFox said:


> I have looked all over for someone closer that I could physically visit to see the parents and premises, but I had no such luck finding one that I liked as much.
> 
> I already have a deposit down with her and am awaiting hearing about her fall litter. There are some concerns when it comes to how I will get the pup down here (FL) because there are restrictions that won't allow the puppy to be shipped to Florida within certain months because of the heat. I think they can't ship again until after September or October! I need to look into other ways I would get the pup as well.
> 
> Cavon, are you Finnegan's owner?
> 
> Thank you all to those who have responded, it is much appreciated and your spoos are beautiful!


Not sure where you breeder is located, but if you book a flight in advance, you may very well be able to fly out and carry her home in the cabin for close to what it would cost to ship! When I got my poodle from Florida to New York, the breeder volunteered to do that for me for the price of the plane ticket, and it cost me $20 more then shipping would have!


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## spoo novice

Yes. I agree.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Where are you located LFox? I would second NOLA. She has some lovely dogs and is knowledgeable and helpful.


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## cavon

Yes, there are some good red breeders in the US and several of them have Bijou dogs in their programs too!

LFox, yes I am the proud owner - or am I proud to be owned by - Big Red Finnegan!!!



Also, extremely proud to be known as "Auntie" by several other beautiful Red Standard Poodles!!


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## Keithsomething

cavon said:


> Yes, there are some good red breeders in the US *and several of them have Bijou dogs in their programs too*!


who would those breeders be?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

LFox...where are you located?


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## spoo novice

LFox said:


> I have looked all over for someone closer that I could physically visit to see the parents and premises, but I had no such luck finding one that I liked as much.
> 
> I already have a deposit down with her and am awaiting hearing about her fall litter. There are some concerns when it comes to how I will get the pup down here (FL) because there are restrictions that won't allow the puppy to be shipped to Florida within certain months because of the heat. I think they can't ship again until after September or October! I need to look into other ways I would get the pup as well.
> 
> Cavon, are you Finnegan's owner?
> 
> Thank you all to those who have responded, it is much appreciated and your spoos are beautiful!


Well, if you have already made your decision, go with that, and make your preparations for your new red spoo! I would recommend you getting your passport and make plans to fly up to get your puppy when it is ready to come home. Otherwise, make sure you are very clear with your breeder about your limitations for your airlines. That was an issue in Illinois, as well.


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## cavon

Keithsomething said:


> who would those breeders be?


Keith, you do a lot of research, I'm quite sure that you are very well aware of which breeders they are. 

If they want to make a post, I'm sure they will and if they do not that is certainly their prerogative.

Another US breeder has a direct relative of Finnegan as their foundation stud.


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## peppersb

I don't know anything about this breeder, but based on their web page, I would not want to have any involvement with them. If you scroll down to the bottom of their home page, you will see that they say: "If you write Defamatory Statements you could be sued for libel." Do you really want to do business with someone who threatens litigation? Or someone who feels that they need to tell people not to say certain things? Big red flag, IMO.


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## cavon

LOLOLOLOL!!!!

There are reasons for everything peppers, very good reasons.

LOLOLOL!!! :bump2:


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## liljaker

peppersb said:


> I don't know anything about this breeder, but based on their web page, I would not want to have any involvement with them. If you scroll down to the bottom of their home page, you will see that they say: "If you write Defamatory Statements you could be sued for libel." Do you really want to do business with someone who threatens litigation? Or someone who feels that they need to tell people not to say certain things? Big red flag, IMO.


That is legally very true and it applies to things said on the internet on forums, blogs, etc. so I can hardly fault a dog breeder for reminding people of that on their website. Negative Online Reviews: Why You Can Be Sued for Defamation | TIME.com


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## Keithsomething

its only libel you're lying...if you just tell the truth can't get in much trouble ;D

and Cavon, I DO do alot of research and for the life of me I can't think of any breeders showing those dogs in the states let alone using them as foundations (aside from 2)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keithsomething said:


> its only libel you're lying...if you just tell the truth can't get in much trouble ;D
> 
> and Cavon, I DO do alot of research and for the life of me I can't think of any breeders showing those dogs in the states let alone using them as foundations (aside from 2)


Me too!! I've been Googling and looking on PHR and only found two as well...one the offshoot of another.


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## cavon

Keithsomething said:


> its only libel you're lying...if you just tell the truth can't get in much trouble ;D
> 
> and Cavon, I DO do alot of research and for the life of me I can't think of any breeders showing those dogs in the states let alone using them as foundations (aside from 2)


A) shame more people aren't telling the truth...

B)Doesn't mean it's not true, Keith. One of them had the same white patch on it's chest that Finnegan still has, but that poodle's miraculously disappeared so that it could be shown outside of the UKC. Funny how some white patches disappear....

Funny, like breeders asking why I just didn't cut the white out or dye it, that's what they "do", not "would consider doing for a second and then decide not to because it is not honest and because it will perpetuate the gene in future breedings"...

Funny, like breeders that show the same poodle as a multi color in the UKC but as a solid in the CKC/AKC...

Lots of amusing things if you are around long enough - cyber-screaming that even if Finnegan wasn't altered that they would NEVER use him as a stud because of his white patch, but then a year or two later add an interesting dog to their program


:argh:


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## Keithsomething

Well a Mismark isn't anything to be ashamed of, tell the truth and be honest is what I say. Who is showing a dog with a Mismark cut out!?

Finnegan is your pet so anyone considering to breed to him sounds foolish to me, even if he has a boatload of titles.

I would like to know who the breeder is that has the male as their foundation.


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## cavon

Keith each person knows who they are. I feel no need to drag actual names through the mud. There could be potentially many very disappointed people, I have no desire or need to do that.

When you have your own accomplishments, you don't have to disparage others

Yes, Finnegan is my pet, the same pet who has potentially achieved as much, no disrespect or slur intended towards any poodle owners whose dogs have accomplished more, and accomplished much more than most poodles on this forum. The same poodle who each and every time that I show him, judges (UKC, AKC & CKC certified) ask, "Why was this dog neutered? I bet the breeder is kicking her ass now!"

Now while I spend a lot of time training with Finnegan and he just LOVES the show ring - at a recent show the judge(AKC/UKC) after asking the aforementioned question said, "So many breeders would DIE for a dog with this attitude in the ring!!" - Finnegan's accomplishments are a true testament of the breeding program that he comes from.

Instead of "the proof being in the pudding", in his case, "the proof is in the POODLE!!!!!"


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## 2719

Hello LFox, First let me state that I am NOT a breeder of Red Standard Poodles. I breed Black and Brown. I have no hidden agendas. Just wanted you to be aware that for whatever reasons, sometimes Breeders of the same colour poodles like to cast aspersions on fellow breeders. It does not matter if it is true, is second hand gossip etc. I am telling you this from my own experience with like coloured breeders.

Second I wanted to tell you about my experience with Bijou. I have heard all the gossip, I have seen pictures of their dogs etc. etc. I do not wish to comment on this. BUT I did meet Laura Turner of Bijou while at the UKC premier show in Michigan this past June. She struck up a conversation with me about my black boy, Cosi. I chatted with her, while we were waiting in line for lure coursing. She had a brown girl and a red girl with her. Both girls were very calm and quiet, amid a very crowded tent of people and dogs. And with a lure course continually running near us. 

Laura was at the UKC with some of her poodles and was participating in numerous events. To me, this is something to be commended. She has been breeding for a while now and could probably sell her litters quite handily without gaining titles on them. But she was in the United States camping (RVing) with her dogs. 

Again that is the extent of my dealings with Bijou and I will not speak on complaints etc, because I KNOW there is always two sides to every story.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

And I would LOVE to know who the breeder is who dyes out the white spot and shows multi coloured in UKC and solid in AKC.

Your boy's white patch would not be the end all and be all in determining whether or not to breed... 

This dog passed away two weeks ago at less than 3 of what is presumed to be auto immune related issues. Test results will be in shortly.

PHR Pedigree Database

This girl has six to eight light seizures on a daily basis:

PHR Pedigree Database

Annmarie Sparks Dunn of New York lost her boy at a year of suspected auto immune related disorder. Same originating kennel bred her dog as is behind the above dogs.

Wispynook's Taffy was Dysplastic at two. Same originating kennel. http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/13507-taffys-ofa-results.html

Sir Gorky had unrelated dogs in his background but dogs from the same originating kennel nevertheless. He had Addisons and hip dysplasia before he was two. Same originating kennel. http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/11338-future-listing-gorky-poodle-health-registry.html
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/10381-gorky-may-18-2009-november-12-2010-a.html

Maxine and Bob Jones lost their dog to a deformed heart and diaphragm before he was two. Same kennel behind him too.

Wispynook, Bob and Maxine Jones and Gorky have all been documented here in their own threads and their own stories. I could inquire and ask the others if they'd be willing to join, relive their horrors and tell their stories.


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## Keithsomething

i by no means was dispaarging you or your breeders achievements calling him a pet, I simply meant that anyone wanting to breed to him, OR saying they WOULDN'T breed to him is foolish as he is your PET...in my opinion the word pet isn't a disparishment, 99% of poodles are pets, as it should be. I'd never think of taking away from someones pet...but not every pet needs bred

I think its fantastic you as his owner have been able to accomplish so much with him, and hopefully even more in his future. You're the exact kind of owner any breeder would be happy to have as an owner of one of their puppies!


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## cavon

Final words:

Those with no accomplishments of their own often feel threatened by those who have accomplished a great deal in the same arena. Some, rather than working to earn their own accomplishments choose to take what may seem to be the easier route by disparaging others. 

The problem with this protocol is that knowledgeable people in said arena can see through this tactic very easily and dismiss the actions.

There are always two sides to every story, but some people are to busy working with their dogs to bother giving credence to nonsense.

Let the recorded results speak for themselves. Let members search this forum for negative comments about, oh so many holier than though posters.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Taffys pedigree:

Five generation pedigree: Wispynook Dancing With Magic Of Leatherstocking CGC


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Gorky's pedigree:

PHR Pedigree Database


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Cato's pedigree:

Pedigree: Cato RED Patriot


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## bigredpoodle

Wow just finding this thread.. Very* dissapointed*, and little* embarrased *to read all the negative being said about reds here.*.VERY!* 
Bijou is working very hard , with her own *bred-by dogs* to breed the whole dog..And doing a Damn good job ! Leatherstockings has it place in a Red breeding program. Testing is key ...And autoimmune can be caused by over vaccination and by heartworm prevent and flea killers.. Geesh......*EVERY good breeder* knows that.. Every breeder also knows that if you do enough breeding something is bound to pop up somewhere..eatherstockings bred for YEARS..And did do some inbreeding , and yes these pedigrees (inbred) ones should be avoided..All red breeders know , many Canadian breeders founded their lines with Leatherstockings , as the dogs were readily available. And quite inexpensive..It was the due diligence to breed away from the issues..
He who throws stones and all that .. No need to tear another house down to build your own .....No pedigree is free from disease...Do your homework ask lots of questions.. PERIOD . Like your breeder, trust your breeder..
Pictured here are some of my snotty brats winning. The reds of course, are from my lines , breeding program ! . And I am proud to say , the Apricot goes back to Bijou ! I also have a bitch here that goes back to bijou, both are healthy as horses ... Great temperaments ..... And I am honored to have them ..AND I am a proud member of the ARPCA....
I am truly sorry that you have had to go through this , truly ....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Lucy's pedigree: She passed away last week of Addisons. Her owner, Nicole, will be registering her on PHR when she gets her vet's paperwork...

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=427442


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## spoo novice

Finnegan is a beautiful dog and his accomplishments speak for themselves, as well as all the hard work you have gone to get him to that point. The two of you must have a wonderful relationship. I don't show, so I can't speak to the neutered/not neutered showing question. But it seems, whether he is neutered or not, the two of you are having a ball and accomplishing what you set out to do. To me, that would be the important thing. 

In terms of the breeder in question, I related my experience because another person on the forum was asking about it. I was under the impression that this forum was to converse and share information. I was truthful about my experience and gave a brief, but factual account. It was an unfortunate experience. I am sure many others have had wonderful experiences.


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## spoo novice

One more thing...facts are facts and opinions are opinions. I think we are all intelligent enough to know the difference. If I wasnt interested in someone's opinion, I wouldn't subscribe to this forum. 
I also think I am intelligent enough to take the info presented, add it to my own research and develop my own opinions. I appreciate all the information and opinions presented. 

I have had some great experiences in my search for my spoo, and some really off the wall ones! I even had one breeder call me after a few months and chew me out because I had not chosen her as my breeder, that I would never find my "perfect brown puppy" because I was chasing a dog and not selecting a breeder. She then said she would pray for me! LOL! 

I did tons of research looking for my "forever" companion. Being a novice, I could still have made a big mistake, as things aren't always as they seem, and I had no experience in purchasing a dog on this level. Over the years, I had made mistakes of buying from a puppy mill (before I knew that was what it was). I had rescued, and I had bought a dog from a farmer whose dog had had puppies. 

Having this forum to give me input is wonderful. In other threads, I have sung the praises of several breeders who have helped me and given me advice along the way. I think it would be natural to mention that some breeders did not fit with me. 

If we all had to agree to say, "yes, all breeders are wonderful and you couldn't go wrong with any of them" we would sound like folks from Stepford and wouldn't need this forum. 

Again, thank you to all who have ventured into this conversation! I appreciate all the information and opinions.


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## bigredpoodle

Well said spoo novice. Much ado about Reds ..silly really because this can be said about many colors and many breeders. I could do my own posting of links , but to what end ? BASHING ? Most of the things mentioned can happen in all colors (and breeds) and is truly more prevalent in other colors , and for that matter in other breeds.. But it seems to ALWAYS be about reds..And almost always about these two breeders I truly don't get the bashing that goes on over and over..And there is a commonality amongst the doers..
As a breeder of this color it really bothers me .. And embarrasses me that this is allowed to go on, over and over .. The breeder bashing has been happening here on the forum for years..I am sincerely glad that you are able to learn from it ...I know I sure have.. But probably not the same thing as what you learned..


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## plumcrazy

I have a red standard poodle whom I love dearly. She has been a joy to our family every day since we welcomed her into our home. We have 5 dogs in our home and often Lucy is referred to as the "good one"! All the other ones get into one sort of trouble or another, but Lucy is always so well behaved. She got her CGC at 11 months old and has her Rally Advanced title and one leg towards Rally Excellent. 

I commend cavon & Finnegan for their multitude of accomplishments and I can only say that I wish I was that dedicated of an owner to spend the amount of time, talents and treasure to achieve those kinds of accomplishments. As it is, North Dakota has very limited opportunities to compete. Fargo has a show, Bismarck has a show and that's about it in our entire state. We've traveled to Fargo and as far as Rapid City, SD for Rally trials, but it's not as easy to get to shows where we are - and because of that, I haven't worked with Lucy as much as I should - she's such a perfect family member just the way she is that I haven't worked hard enough, or traveled far enough to put those titles after her name.

We love everything about our red standard poodle!! :beauty: She's happy, healthy, beautiful and a wonderful addition to our family!

Barb


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## MurphyRedGermanBoy

When I fell in love with the red standard poodle in 2008, I knew that this would have to be my next baby. I started to look for a breeder in Europe as I live in Germany, but I realized very soon, that I have next to no chance to fulfill my dream of an own red standard puppy in Europe because they were so very rare here.
So I started my research on the internet to find breeders of red standards overseas and I was so lucky to find "my" breeder very soon. From the first moment on I knew that I found that kind of breeder I was looking for: honest and with an unbelievable huge amount of knowledge, reliable, available for hundreds of questions ANYTIME, with a very small amount of breeding dogs and litters at one time (there was just one girl for breeding), using ONLY completely health tested dogs for breeding, raising of the puppies in the family and so much more what a responsible breeder in my eyes stands for.
It was an exciting experience though, because I never imported a puppy to Germany from Canada before and Cherie never exported one to Europe before. But we did our homework and everything worked out perfect at the end.
My beloved boy was born in September 2010 and I traveled to pick him up from Canada in November 2010.
It was love from the first moment on when I met my boy.
We already bonded very tight with each other when I spent a few days in Cherie's wonderful home before I started the journey home to Germany. I had this young puppy with me in the cabin on the plane and even today it still amazes me how well he did on that trip...so trustful towards me and absolutely relaxed all the time.
He will be three years old this year in September and is as happy and healthy as a dog can be.
And although I never had the idea to show a standard poodle (as I'm not a "dog-show-person" at all) I showed him successfully and he earned the title "German Youth Champion VDH & DPK" and "Federal Youth Winner 2011".
I also train him in search and rescue work in the "German Red Cross K9 unit".
I'm so thankful that fate guided me to Cherie's homepage.
I enjoy every single moment I can spend together with my red prince "Arreau's Morning Has Broken" aka Murphy. I simply ADORE him. He is the joy of my life - my heart dog and so much more than I ever could have asked for or could have dreamed of.


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## spoo novice

Nice! Great letter of recommendation!


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## poodlecrazy51

*I have a red standard I am worried about*

I have read all 5 pages on this thread, red standards. And have a concern. I am not sure the fact that our puppy is red, is why we are having concerns with her temperament...overly shy, with a high risk for fear biting. (A certified dog behaviorist and psychologist did her diagnosing.) We may have to send her back to the breeder, spayed of course. Everyone is mentioning Bijou and Leatherstocking. Our puppy's linage is loaded with these. I would love some advice or foresight into just what we could be able to do with this abnormal temperament. We have had standards for 30 years. She is our 5th. The others, blacks and cream, have been very very good tempered pets, those therapy type dogs. We are so heartbroken at the thought that we may not be able to keep her. We love this puppy, and are putting a lot of time and money into following the recommendations by the Dr. that evaluated her. We drive every week, 200 mile trip, to a puppy class. It is helping. But just when we think she is going to be OK, she will growl and bark at one of the other puppies or its owner. I watched alot of videos online, of reds being shown in rally and luring. Lots of them were tail tucking and very submissive looking in how they carried themselves. They also had some of the same lineage. Our puppy is tail tucked a lot, scared of so many things. If we feel we need to return her, I am not even sure we would want another puppy, or maybe stay away from the reds at least. Or these same bloodlines. And I will never feel I can trust a breeder to pick our puppy for us, and ship it to us without ever seeing it or the breeder in person first. Nor a breeder who does their own temperament testing. So I will have to find one within driving distance. Or a flight I can make and carry the puppy home in cabin like I did with one of our other puppies. That is a challenge. advice and knowledge and your experiences with the various issues I have brought up here. PLEASE.


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## bigredpoodle

Where are you located with this baby ? How old is the pup? I wonder if someone could help you that is closer than 200 miles, puppies do go through fear stages of life.. Could this be it ? A Fear stage? I have nothing but reds, mine are good solid temperaments..
I wish i could help you somehow ...
i would saturate her with experiences keeping them all positive.. Take her to McDonalds for a burger and sit outside if you can encouraging all the good things she does..Take her walking in the neigborhood , encouraging all the good thing she does , ignoring the bad things..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Our matriarch had a terrifying experience and is now skitterish in some situations, but she does not have an aggressive bone in her body. All of our other reds are solid and dependable temperament wise and fantastic with people of all ages. What seems to be your pup's triggers?

Please don't let this experience put you off. I chose Plumcrazy's, MurphyRedGermanBoy's and Trillium's pups and everything ended up perfect. These are just the folks who are members here. I've never had a complaint that a pup was not well tempered or felt like it did not fit. It can be done from a distance, the breeder just has to really pay attention to the pups and what you are looking for.


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## thestars

I would also like to extend my assistance as a red breeder near your location. I am always happy to talk with Poodle people. 
Jean Urban
Patriot Poodles
Http://www.patriotpoodles.com


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## PoodlePowerBC

I am not sure on the temperament of the reds, but Russell the Brown was chosen for me, never met the breeder. I knew which breeding pair I wanted a puppy from, and told her this when I first approached. She asked whether I Had ever owned a Large breed dog before, saying that the pups from the litter I wanted tended to be smart and strong-willed, and she would NOT sell them to an inexperienced owner. She said she had puppies from a different litter that would be better suite. I had owned a Standard poodle, so I got my baby, and the breeder was bang-on. He was very strong-willed, but now at almost 3 he is the best behaved, most attentive dog I have ever owned. So a breeder can make a good choice long distance if they are conscientious. As far as temperament testing by the breeder, who would know their dog better than the breeder? If I felt otherwise, I would insist on an independent tester, and if the breeder refuses, move on down the line.


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## NOLA Standards

TheStars is a wonderful, caring breeder and would be well equipped to help you with your puppy.

Please consider taking her up on her offer.


Regards,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## LFox

Thank you all to were helpful in your opinions on good breeder and the experiences you've had with them.

I was still counting on using the breeder I had mentioned before, but it appears she saw this post and took offense to it. It was never my intent to harm her reputation in anyway, I was just looking to utilize every tool possible to gain opinions and testimonies (as that is what I have always been told is a responsible thing to do as a buyer). Upon seeing this thread she promptly returned my deposit and sent an email basically sending me on my way because she no longer wants to work with me based on me making this post. I replied with my explanation of why I made this post and an apology if I offended or hurt her or her reputation (I see now even in this thread that other breeders have the propensity to "stir the pot" and cause drama) along with a request to continue working with her. However, she never responded back to me. 
Maybe it was wrong of me to make this post? But I don't think I spoke ill will of her anywhere and I felt I, very understandingly, acknowledged the problems she had with it and apologized for any damage I may have done. I don't think I deserved to be dropped the way I was, but they are her dogs and her puppies so the right is all hers.

I will be looking into some of the breeders you all have recommended again thank you for your helpful advice. I've started to look into Patriot, Sheroc, and Princeton Poodles (which weren't mentioned, but they are closest to home) Maybe I will talk to you all again soon


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## Keithsomething

I'm sorry to hear that she dropped you for posting this thread asking for experiences and opinions...que sera sera though, sometimes these things happen for a reason. I'm sure you'll bring home the puppy of your dreams, and it will be all you've dreamed of. Good luck on your search and please let us know how it goes and who you do end up getting a puppy from ^_^


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## thestars

LFox said:


> I will be looking into some of the breeders you all have recommended again thank you for your helpful advice. I've started to look into Patriot, Sheroc, and Princeton Poodles (which weren't mentioned, but they are closest to home) Maybe I will talk to you all again soon


Both myself, Jean Urban of Patriot Poodles and Sheryl of Palmares/Sheroc Poodles would be happy to talk with you about poodles. Please do not hesitate to contact us. Our web sites have our contact information.


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## bigredpoodle

LFox said:


> Thank you all to were helpful in your opinions on good breeder and the experiences you've had with them.
> 
> I was still counting on using the breeder I had mentioned before, but it appears she saw this post and took offense to it. It was never my intent to harm her reputation in anyway, I was just looking to utilize every tool possible to gain opinions and testimonies (as that is what I have always been told is a responsible thing to do as a buyer). Upon seeing this thread she promptly returned my deposit and sent an email basically sending me on my way because she no longer wants to work with me based on me making this post. I replied with my explanation of why I made this post and an apology if I offended or hurt her or her reputation (I see now even in this thread that other breeders have the propensity to "stir the pot" and cause drama) along with a request to continue working with her. However, she never responded back to me.
> Maybe it was wrong of me to make this post? But I don't think I spoke ill will of her anywhere and I felt I, very understandingly, acknowledged the problems she had with it and apologized for any damage I may have done. I don't think I deserved to be dropped the way I was, but they are her dogs and her puppies so the right is all hers.
> 
> I will be looking into some of the breeders you all have recommended again thank you for your helpful advice. I've started to look into Patriot, Sheroc, and Princeton Poodles (which weren't mentioned, but they are closest to home) Maybe I will talk to you all again soon


Please feel free to contact Jean or myself ! We both love to talk red poodle..
If we dont have waht you seek we can sure help you in your quest..


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## spoo novice

I am so sorry you had that experience. Everyone has the right to ask for references and recommendations from others. This forum would seem to be a logical place to inquire. 

So much else I could say but I will leave it at that. You have many better options and, as I see from the posts, many offers of help. 

I think, perhaps, that breeder just solidified some of the opinions she was trying to avoid. 

Can't wait to see your new puppy!


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## NOLA Standards

mmmmmmmmmmmm (biting tongue but just not going to be able to refrain from commenting)

This forum, in particular, is a highly inflammatory place to ask opinions regarding some breeders... ESPECIALLY when the color red is involved. :ahhhhh: 

Anyone searching can quickly discover that for themselves. The feuding and disagreements have been long and loud and periodically- even when years old - bumped back into circulation.

This thread is an excellent example. There were...3?? posts from pet owners - the rest of the posts were from the Breeders. (NOTE that the OP asked for feedback from puppy owners NOT from Breeders. Yes. Really. Read the Original Post again.)

Am not the least bit surprised the Breeder removed her puppy as an option for the OP. (Please recognize I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing with any practice, merely stating that I am not surprised).

Most likely the OP did not search/research the history of this forum and the previous red breeder/red puppy posts first and posted in all innocence, but any, even a GUEST reader, realizes the red cat fighting that occurs here (and FB and other forums!).

Lessons learned.....


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Chagall's mom

NOLA Standards said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmm (biting tongue but just not going to be able to refrain from commenting)
> 
> This forum, in particular, is a highly inflammatory place to ask opinions regarding some breeders... ESPECIALLY when the color red is involved. :ahhhhh:
> 
> Anyone searching can quickly discover that for themselves. The feuding and disagreements have been long and loud and periodically- even when years old - bumped back into circulation.
> 
> This thread is an excellent example. There were...3?? posts from pet owners - the rest of the posts were from the Breeders. (NOTE that the OP asked for feedback from puppy owners NOT from Breeders. Yes. Really. Read the Original Post again.)
> 
> Am not the least bit surprised the Breeder removed her puppy as an option for the OP. (Please recognize I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing with any practice, merely stating that I am not surprised).
> 
> Most likely the OP did not search/research the history of this forum and the previous red breeder/red puppy posts first and posted in all innocence, but any, even a GUEST reader, realizes the red cat fighting that occurs here (and FB and other forums!).
> 
> Lessons learned.....
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


:amen:

:adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore: :adore:


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## spoo novice

NOLA Standards said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmm (biting tongue but just not going to be able to refrain from commenting)
> 
> This forum, in particular, is a highly inflammatory place to ask opinions regarding some breeders... ESPECIALLY when the color red is involved. :ahhhhh:
> 
> Anyone searching can quickly discover that for themselves. The feuding and disagreements have been long and loud and periodically- even when years old - bumped back into circulation.
> 
> This thread is an excellent example. There were...3?? posts from pet owners - the rest of the posts were from the Breeders. (NOTE that the OP asked for feedback from puppy owners NOT from Breeders. Yes. Really. Read the Original Post again.)
> 
> Am not the least bit surprised the Breeder removed her puppy as an option for the OP. (Please recognize I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing with any practice, merely stating that I am not surprised).
> 
> Most likely the OP did not search/research the history of this forum and the previous red breeder/red puppy posts first and posted in all innocence, but any, even a GUEST reader, realizes the red cat fighting that occurs here (and FB and other forums!).
> 
> Lessons learned.....
> 
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards





I guess I understand your perspective, but, as a newcomer and someone wanting to learn more about poodles and making good decisions, I don't see the cat fighting. It's obvious that some breeders don't love each other, but, again, everybody has their own opinions and context for those opinions. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I see breeders as poodle "owners" as well. I spent hours upon hours searching through poodle websites, info on testing and conformation, etc., and I still nearly made a mistake in my choice of breeder. 
I welcome any info I can get and then it's my responsibility to determine its value. 

Bear in mind, I don't have a personal relationship with any breeders. 

In the end, poodle breeders are business people on some level. So are car dealers. I went to buy a car, once, years ago, and the dealer told me to bring my husband back with me and he'd talk with me. I was furious...and I told everyone I saw how I was treated...and never darkened that dealership's door again. I bought a new vehicle from his competitor down the street. Sometimes it's not the product, but how the customer is treated.


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## spoo novice

And it looks to me like the "red" breeders suggested lots of other breeders for the person looking for her red puppy. That sounded pretty nice to me...nothing like cat-fighting. 

I am sure there are some competitive jealousies....some strong opinions...but I didn't see nastiness. Maybe its in the backstories...I still want everyone's feedback.


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## PoodlePowerBC

NOLA Standards said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmm (biting tongue but just not going to be able to refrain from commenting)
> 
> This forum, in particular, is a highly inflammatory place to ask opinions regarding some breeders... ESPECIALLY when the color red is involved. :ahhhhh:
> 
> Anyone searching can quickly discover that for themselves. The feuding and disagreements have been long and loud and periodically- even when years old - bumped back into circulation.
> 
> This thread is an excellent example. There were...3?? posts from pet owners - the rest of the posts were from the Breeders. (NOTE that the OP asked for feedback from puppy owners NOT from Breeders. Yes. Really. Read the Original Post again.)
> 
> Am not the least bit surprised the Breeder removed her puppy as an option for the OP. (Please recognize I am NOT agreeing or disagreeing with any practice, merely stating that I am not surprised).
> 
> Most likely the OP did not search/research the history of this forum and the previous red breeder/red puppy posts first and posted in all innocence, but any, even a GUEST reader, realizes the red cat fighting that occurs here (and FB and other forums!).
> 
> Lessons learned.....
> 
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


 Well put!
As the owner of a brown from this "Breeder" I know how nasty it can get. I personally will NEVER post publicly where I purchase my next poodle on this forum again. I have had numerous people ask where Russell came from and they get a PM every time! Believe it or not, you hurt my feelings when you slam his breeder. Especially when you resurrect old threads specifically to do this. I agree that you may have your reasons, but I truly believe a PM is a much politer way to handle this. 
JMHO:angel2:


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## NuTuPoodles

after reading these 7 pages, i am still as lost as i was when i began! LOL. This makes other forums i participate in regarding electronics and cars look tame!! oh well, more reading.


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