# Opinions on Standards by Bowen?



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

They dont even have a health guarantee past 3 days, and zero guarantee for 'shipping' related illnes!!!! Major pass from me.

I thought you were interested in showing? Doesnt look like they show, either. No mention of the parents other than "a prized female" "a prized male" etc.


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## SMSP (Apr 5, 2018)

I personally think the various prices are ok because they've considered different factors (what those factors are I won't speculate for them) and priced accordingly.

A red flag is their disclaimer on the shipping. Their not shipping an object. They're shipping a live animal. I understand that shipping may be the only option but it should be as an absolute last resort. (I personally do not agree with shipping a dog.)

A second red flag is raised by their apparent first choice being to ship the dog instead of:
1. In-person pick-up at breeder location
2. Breeder or transport person hand deliver the dog to an airport or meeting location for a fee.
3. A dog transport service

A third red flag, based on their shipping policy, is that they obviously don't have a clause to accept the dog back, if needed.

Based on your criteria list, consider which criteria is absolutely non-negotiable, for example, documentation of parent's health test, and what criteria is negotiable.

Also you may want to contact the breeder by email or phone and obtain information to determine your personal opinion of the breeder.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

If you are interested in showing and in reds, I would stick with a kennel that shows. Set yourself up for success by starting with a dog from lines that have already proved themselves in the ring.


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## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> They dont even have a health guarantee past 3 days, and zero guarantee for 'shipping' related illnes!!!! Major pass from me.
> 
> I thought you were interested in showing? Doesnt look like they show, either. No mention of the parents other than "a prized female" "a prized male" etc.





SMSP said:


> I personally think the various prices are ok because they've considered different factors (what those factors are I won't speculate for them) and priced accordingly.
> 
> A red flag is their disclaimer on the shipping. Their not shipping an object. They're shipping a live animal. I understand that shipping may be the only option but it should be as an absolute last resort. (I personally do not agree with shipping a dog.)
> 
> ...





cowpony said:


> If you are interested in showing and in reds, I would stick with a kennel that shows. Set yourself up for success by starting with a dog from lines that have already proved themselves in the ring.



Oh no! I wasn’t interested in this breeder at all. I think I’m somewhat aware of certain information that’s necessary for the particular poodle that I want. However, I was still curious if buying from these sort of breeders is still okay? At least for those wanting pet quality poodles. Also, it struck me as interesting that he could pass out both limited and full registration but with different prices. 

@SMSP I also don’t like that it looks like they don’t prefer in-person pickup. But a lot of breeders do nowadays. 

I’m wondering if anyone has bought a poodle from this breeder too?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

"Kingston is our prized bull."

?????????????????????

And I do question the different pricing for different colors as well as offering full reg breeding rights for the purchase price only, no indication of vetting the buyer.

Full vs limited reg is one of the few criteria that I'm now used to seeing different pricing on. What's irregular is that they don't mention any additional criteria for the buyer to warrant full breeding rights beyond paying for it. 

I don't personally see anything that makes me want to ask them more, and I see enough small things to put me off them entirely.


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## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Lol, I found that weird too. No other info, Kingston is just a prized bull.

It’s very new to me—the full and limited pricing, I mean. I also wonder where he got his breeding rights from? Perhaps he did shoe poodles in the past?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I think there's a fine line between exploring the pros and cons of a breeder someone's considering and just dissecting for the fun of it. The latter makes me a little uncomfortable.

Perhaps a more general discussion of tiered pricing is in order. I'd be interested in knowing everyone's thoughts on when this is a red flag vs. not.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't consider this dissecting for the fun of it. It's legitimate imo to try to understand how a breeder got started, given the criteria offered as guidelines but point taken. Anything beyond what is found online on their website or FB pages, public mentions on other sites, personal experience by another PF'er, or available from the breeder by asking is just speculation.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> I don't consider this dissecting for the fun of it. It's legitimate imo to try to understand how a breeder got started, given the criteria offered as guidelines but point taken. Anything beyond what is found online, personal experience by another PF'er, or available from the breeder by asking is just speculation.


Just my personal feelings.  I learn a lot from these conversations, so I know they have value. I guess I just imagine being a breeder and stumbling upon this sort of thing. Makes me feel sad. Lol. But I suppose it's educational for them, too, seeing how their online presence is received.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I get it, and if this were done to simply badmouth, I'd fully agree. It happens occasionally that a breeder gets alerted by a happy owner and then said breeder joins to comment. That becomes a good opportunity for us all to learn .


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## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

I personally see this as a learning experience, hence why I asked for opinions. My focus was mainly on the pricing and outdated testing. But I’ve learned a lot of other red flags here that I could apply to future breeders and breeder websites.

Also, if someone is like past me a few months back, this site would look like GOLD. I can give you just a hundred more for full registration, meaning I can participate in conformation shows (or breeding rights if you’re into that)? Yes please, take my money! Never mind everything else.


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