# Red spoos with liver noses?



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

There would have to be brown ( there are no chocolate poodles)in their lineage to get liver points and amber eyes ( not hazel), and from what I understand most reds lighten even with black points, from that dark mahogany that you are seeing in the poodle pups in that image search engine. There are a few folks here on the list that can explain genetics better than I.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't have any pictures, but the following page gives info on the genetics:
https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html

On this page, it says:
If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee.

So a red dog with a brown nose is bbee. The small 'b' means that the dog carries the brown gene. Two small b's indicate that there is brown on both sides of the pedigree. 

Breeders of reds who know what they are doing will not breed to browns, and don't want brown in their pedigrees.

I don't think that the color of the nose (or the presence of brown in the pedigree) has anything to do with how much a red puppy will lighten.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Merlin is an apricot toy and has a liver nose. He was born red and faded. His father is a rich red. I think his mom is apricot.

It's not a desirable trait, his nose should be black. You can still see black on his nose becasue at the breeder's when I got him at 16 months, he was drinking and eating from metal buckets and it changed his pigmentation.

I think it looks good on him !


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Pepper sb covered the answer well. 

Brown noses (caused by being liver) don't have any affect on wether a dog fades or not. The desirability of black pigment on red (and cream and apricot) dogs is a result of the breed standard. There's nothing any less about liver-pigmented dogs; brown nose and eye leather are solely cosmetic.


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## im.speechliss (Jul 4, 2017)

peppersb said:


> I don't have any pictures, but the following page gives info on the genetics:
> https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html
> 
> On this page, it says:
> ...


Peppersb, your information on poodle coat colors is fascinating! Do they know gene what causes the color Blue? My Daisy, 8 mo old, mostly Spoo mix had her DNA tested by Wisdom Panel and she is Bb/sEe. She is a rescue dog I adopted. When I got her at 3.5 mo she was black with a little white chin, white spot on her chest, and white on her back tippy toes and under the pads of her feet with a little brown tinge by her muzzle. Now she is turning gray/blue. I don't see Blue listed as a poodle color. Do they know what causes it? Also, I don't know what the b/s means? Do you? Thanks so much!

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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

im.speechliss said:


> Do they know gene what causes the color Blue?
> 
> I don't see Blue listed as a poodle color. Do they know what causes it?
> 
> Also, I don't know what the b/s means? Do you?


I'm not Peppersb, but i'm on my lunch break and love talking about poodle colors 

Blue (in poodles) is caused by something progressive greying. The same gene causes silvers, cafe au laits, and silver beiges. The general theory is that blues and cafes are heterozygous for progressive greying and that silvers and silver beiges are homozygous for it. That's just a theory for now though, as there has not yet been a test created to find out where the gene is located. 

as for what the Bb/seE means...do you have a screenshot of your results? I suspect that the 's' might be a typo given the way that color genotypes are usually written out. 

Without that s, your Daisy would be Bb/Ee, meaning she carries for liver (but has black pigment), and also that she carries for recessive red.


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## im.speechliss (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi, Coldbrew! I'm sorry to digress from red Spoos, but genetics and poodle colors are so fascinating to me as well. I took a screenshot and I hope you can read it. Thank you so much!!









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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

i got to learn something new to be able to answer the Bbs question!

bs is one of three types of b (the others are bc and bd). It still means that your dog carries liver, but will look black. 

also, your blue dog is a rainbow under her dark coat!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

This is Holly, our matriarch for our original line. Her nose was never coal black but would darken considerably depending on the season. Some of her offspring have black noses and some liver. She has a cluster of browns behind her quite a ways back in her pedigree, and we suspect because of this that she carried the brown gene. Her daughter and granddaughter also have liver noses, but much darker, and depending who they've been bred to have produced some remarkable black pigment and also some liver. While the breed standard states though black is preferred, and brown is acceptable, I much prefer black, and it has been my goal to correct this in our original line. Thankfully we have never had a eye colour issue.


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## im.speechliss (Jul 4, 2017)

Wow that is really interesting! Thank you so much, Coldbrew. She is a rainbow, I agree!! Where do you find all of this fascinating info? At www.vetgen.com? 

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