# Questions to ask potential trainers?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

LIMA stands for least invasive, minimally aversive and it is a policy of the Certification Council of Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT) to submit a signed document attesting you will follow that strategy to become CPDT-KA (certified professional dog trainer-knowledge assessed) certified. CCPDT also requires applicants for the certification to sign a document agreeing to adhere to the organization's code of ethics. 

So as the abbreviation indicates LIMA based trainers are obliged to look for the most positively based and least intrusive aversive methods of correcting behaviors and for teaching new behaviors. 

If one really understands the four quadrants of learning theory one must acknowledge the value of all four quadrants. Certain strategies and techniques are meant to increase the emission of a behaviors and others are designed to decrease the frequency of an unwanted behavior. Many people misunderstand a "punisher" that decreases a behavior has to be physically or psychologically damaging. They do not. A trainer using LIMA strategies working with a dog that does not want to stop jumping on people can either teach the dog an off command coupled to a sit rewarding for the sit which then will be linked to the off or if that has failed because perhaps the behavior is intractable because the dog has been allowed to rehearse it too often or because the dog is pushy can step into the dog to prevent the jumping and at the same time give the dog a negative marker word like no as a means of preventing the undesired jumping. Both of those strategies will have the same outcome the first doesn't use an obvious aversive while the second method is a minimal aversive. Both will work, but you should try the first method first for most dogs.


Corrections are not innately bad or always to be avoided. If you use physical force to correct without the dog understanding why it is being corrected or if you use excessive force to correct a dog (ever) then that is not fair. I am guessing the trainer subscribes to the LIMA philosophy is probably a CPDT-KA certificant. To maintain that certification people have to do a fair amount of accredited CEU trainings. Ian Dunbar thinks it is one of the best professional certifications a trainer can have.


I think I would ask if you can watch a class. If the person is CPDT-KA you should like what you see.


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## iwaftsd (Apr 23, 2019)

I really love how lily cd re put it. Corrections aren't inherently bad, and when used appropriately increase communication between dog and handler. 


What are you looking for in the dog? I personally want to train for higher standards, so if I were looking for a trainer I'd look to see that they've put obedience titles on their dogs as a form of proof that they can train to more advanced levels. Personally I looked for advanced obedience titles, but if I were looking for just an average pet I imagine I (personally) would look for ideally lower competition obedience titles, rally titles, but at least CGC titles (CGC, CGCA, CGCU) if nothing else. 

The reason I look for titles is because they're kind of like standardized tests. Anyone can say that they can train advanced obedience, or pet obedience, but the titles prove that their dogs had to perform these behaviors to a set standard in front of a partial judge (or evaluator in the case of CGCs). I had a friend thinking about buying a retired adult from a breeder who claimed she was completely obedience trained, but when I went to visit the dog it clearly had barely any training - if at all.


From there, these are the questions I also asked our current trainer before starting:

What well-known trainer or trainers have most influenced your own training style?

What titles have you or your students earned on dogs you worked with? (this is what I mentioned above about looking for titles)

Do you have any professional certifications and/or are a member of any professional organizations?

How long have you been training professionally?

Is there anyway I could observe your training style to see if we'd work well together?


If you're concerned about corrections, you might want to ask how they decide when and how to correct the dogs. They should customize corrections to each dog based on it's personality and sensitivity. You can also ask about what they do if the dog isn't performing either because of not understanding or blowing off the handler. 

In fact, having a trainer who customizes training to your dog is very important, in my opinion. My current trainer primarily uses positive reinforcement with luring and shaping, which is definitely great, but she will advise the use of the other quadrants of operant conditioning or other methods for eliciting behavior as needed. Not her go-tos, but in her toolbox. 


Finally, just remember that when you choose a trainer, use critical thinking and ask plenty of questions. I had an agility trainer who, while very capable and knowledgeable, insisted that free shaping was the only way to do what we were doing, which both me and my dog hated. I was willing to go out of my comfort zone, but when my dog started getting frustrated and shutdown and no longer having fun I asked to alter the exercises, and it was like pulling teeth. Eventually I decided that she wasn't right for us and left. You are your dog's advocate, if you feel uncomfortable let the trainer know. If they can't assuage your concerns (through explanation or altering their practices), it's probably best to find another. 


I'm by no means an expert, and am just sharing the advice I was given by those more knowledgeable than me when I was searching as well as what I just personally believe through my dog training experiences.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I had never heard of LIMA. 

The first trainer I went to advertised that she was a positive trainer. In each and every class she reminded us she was a positive trainer. However in each and every class she demanded that we perform "puppy management" which is where you force your dog to lay down then you step on the leash - only 6" of leash was allowed, just enough for your dog to keep it's head up but short enough to force it to lay down. We had to do this multiple times in class, when ever she talked. Everything else we did in class I would agree was positive, but puppy management was not. My dog hated it, I hated it. This was the very first dog training class that I had ever taken. I didn't know any better. I believe it might be affecting our current performance in competition. Now I know better - if someone wants me to do something that my dog doesn't like and I'm uncomfortable doing - I've learned that I have to be my dog's advocate. Speak up, refuse to do it and that might mean leaving the class and finding another teacher.

I finished the class and immediately looked around and found another trainer who was great - and from there moved into serious dog training - where I've had wonderful trainers. But I don't always do everything recommended - my dog is very soft. I never did the ear pinch in training dumbbell, even the gentle version - it just wasn't the right approach. I know many people who did use it successfully and their dogs were happy with the training.

I mention this because if you are like me, and this is your first class - if there is something you don't understand or don't feel comfortable with - speak to the teacher. Ask for alternative methods if you feel you need another approach. Or come here and ask here if this is an appropriate method. 

I suspect both potential trainers will be great trainers, but you are your dog's advocate.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'd go watch a few classes first and make sure it's acceptable to you. 

The reason many PR trainers use no punishment is that even if it's not rough or mistreatment in any way, it stops behavior. It's adding something to decrease a behavior. The idea behind PR training is that you aim to _increase_ behavior...keep the dog's mind set on moving forward, throwing new behaviors to see if they'll work which raises the odds that they'll hit on the right one. Punishment has a tendency to lessen that trying out new behaviors. Punishment stops behavior, often not just the target behavior... if it's relied on to much of a degree. This is why agility trainers who need their dogs to hurry and be extremely enthusiastic (at least the ones I am familiar with who have been very successful) use almost no punishment, not even "eh-eh." If a behavior is NOT reinforced, if there's nothing good to come of it, if it is prevented so the dog can't self reward, it will extinguish. You don't have to use + punishment. If one does use some kind of stopping of the behavior, it is a must to immediately show the dog what you do want him to do....an alternative that is rewarding. 

I would ask the trainer for references and talk to those people, experience, even more than a formal education because those things really show what's cookin'. I'd look at the dogs and their owners in a few classes, not just one...I'd ask what all she teaches. Any proof of success? Good luck. Go watch some classes first. They can tell you anything and then you get in there and a trainer may mistreat dogs or communicate in ways dogs don't understand. I've seen that too. I'd never stick around for that.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> The reason many PR trainers use no punishment is that even if it's not rough or mistreatment in any way, it stops behavior. It's adding something to decrease a behavior. The idea behind PR training is that you aim to _increase_ behavior...keep the dog's mind set on moving forward, throwing new behaviors to see if they'll work which raises the odds that they'll hit on the right one. Punishment has a tendency to lessen that trying out new behaviors. Punishment stops behavior, often not just the target behavior... if it's relied on to much of a degree. This is why agility trainers who need their dogs to hurry and be extremely enthusiastic (at least the ones I am familiar with who have been very successful) use almost no punishment, not even "eh-eh." If a behavior is NOT reinforced, if there's nothing good to come of it, if it is prevented so the dog can't self reward, it will extinguish. You don't have to use + punishment. If one does use some kind of stopping of the behavior, it is a must to immediately show the dog what you do want him to do....an alternative that is rewarding.


I absolutely agree with this, however, I think many people confuse correction with punishment. Corrections can and should be given in ways that impart information to the dog without making the dog uncomfortable or unhappy. Punishment is aversive, a correction is (should be) just information. I think the more information we can give our dogs about which behaviors we want and which we don't want, the better. I'm not saying good/bad behaviors or right/wrong choices, because corrections should not be made on this basis. They should simply tell the dog whether a behavior is wanted and should be repeated or not. Ignoring a behavior will eventually cause it to extinguish, provided it is not a self-rewarding behavior, but telling the dog we don't want that behavior will be both quicker and build a better understanding on the dog's part.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar thank you for your good clarifications about thinking about the OP's goals with the puppy. Also as an FYI you can learn more about CCPDT's ethics and philosophy statements at their website which is http://www.ccpdt.org/


Reraven I think you are correct about correction vs. punishment. To perhaps simplify these ideas, punishments are generally pretty uninformative (I don't like that you did that) with no additional information. A correction tells the dog (or child) they were wrong but immediately offers information to help the next event to be successful. For example around jumps these days Javelin gets pretty excitable and goes out of front brain thinking. Rather than letting him get more and more loosey goosey (where he will do things like run off to take a jump on his own or jump up to grab my hand while moving with me) I immediately tell him to down give him a couple of seconds to give me a calming signal then tell him to sit and then to get close (his set up order for working). He is now actually starting to put himself on the down to help himself control his excitement and get him back to front brain thinking to be able to return to working. He has been not just punished by cutting him off from what he wants to do but instead told that he needs to compose himself to move on to the next thing. The lie down happens without him being touched. He hears no and now is understanding not just that what he just did was a mistake but that he can get to do what he wants to if he stops being a goof ball. 



Timing of course matters very much in all of this.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Once again, this forum is such a great resource!

With all this advice in mind, I talked with the trainer whose results I've seen myself--the spoo i know who's a therapy dog--and she hit all the right notes. She is CGC-certified, and she's a mentor-trainer for the Animal Behavior College, on top of her other qualifications. She seems very flexible in her approach, in teaching the important commands and also creating behavior, in a way that will work for the specific dog (and its people), and without uninformative punishment. Her method seems closer to Jean Donaldson, from what i've read. She describes it as a combination of different approaches that she has developed over the 15 years she's been training. She generally doesn't use the clicker--except she said if she has a very distracted dog during loose-leash training. That was the one thing I was disappointed about. She uses a word instead. Despite my interest in the clicker, I'm not sure the rest of my family is on board with it, and in that sense, this may be better for us. Most of all i liked her approach as she explained it to me and the examples she gave of different situations. 

She did say that signing up for a class that includes basic obedience training at the same time, if we are working with her, and if the class uses a different approach, could be confusing for the puppy, vs a social-only group. So i'll have to think about that in terms of the puppy class i was going to do.

She also cautioned me to make sure I am only introducing the puppy to other dogs at that early stage in situations that would be totally positive experiences. That does worry me a little b/c i'm not going to have any idea what the other dogs will be like in the puppy class, whereas, if i invite friends over, i can at least first make sure their dogs are good with other dogs.

I'm going to observe a class taught by the other trainer who is clicker-certified, especially since I don't know a poodle (or anyone, specifically) who was trained by her, and then i think i'll have more to go on.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

reraven123 said:


> I absolutely agree with this, however, I think many people confuse correction with punishment. Corrections can and should be given in ways that impart information to the dog without making the dog uncomfortable or unhappy. Punishment is aversive, a correction is (should be) just information. I think the more information we can give our dogs about which behaviors we want and which we don't want, the better. I'm not saying good/bad behaviors or right/wrong choices, because corrections should not be made on this basis. They should simply tell the dog whether a behavior is wanted and should be repeated or not. *Ignoring a behavior will eventually cause it to extinguish, provided it is not a self-rewarding behavior, but telling the dog we don't want that behavior will be both quicker and build a better understanding on the dog's part.*


Ignoring a behavior and waiting, waiting and more waiting for them to do the right behavior can take longer. You're right. In some cases, this can be good because it makes the dog think more, he learns how learn better, how to put the puzzle together all by himself. As Ian Dunbar says, "Don't just do something. Wait." lol. Sometimes I'll wait as long as the dog is enjoying the process of trying to figure out what I mean... and when he hits on the right behavior, I swear I see the proud-wheels turning. Maybe I'm over-anthropomorphizing. But it's as if they enjoy figuring it out and feel more confident than before. So then it makes me think twice before rushing the process. Sometimes we'll see a dog become too frustrated/stressed with all this figuring so then we step in and show them. Often it's useful to not ignore, not punish but go straight to the showing. It's all a bunch of ways to do things and we trainers tend to use 'em all. I tell my dogs "no" but it's not a punishing, angry "no." It's a "no" that is a directive. "No, not that Mattie, this is what I mean." Sometimes I truly get po'd (not when training in particular...skills and such) and I am sharp, "Hey! Quit that!" I'm not Miss perfect PR. I still have that default old school bossiness in me...a constant work in progress. But with most training where I'm really trying to accomplish something, I seem to have infinite patience and stop and think what I'm doing. But if I catch them eating coyote or goose poo...ACK!!!!! STOP! LOL. :ahhhhh: That's what I mean...I have better things to do than to try and teach them not to eat those things.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Okay, she sounds like she checks nearly all of the boxes for you so now go watch a couple of classes. for a young puppy I would not worry about getting into an obedience class right away. Puppy social matters more since there is only one window of opportunity for it. Don't worry about the other puppies, it is the job of the person running the class to do that. Even in more advanced obedience classes much of my time is spent managing the interactions between the dogs since (particularly in novice) if you have green dogs with green handlers things can go off the rails pretty quickly. the safety of everyone is my first duty as an instructor/leader of a class.


BTW I don't necessarily put much stock in being certified as a clicker trainer or most certifications other than CPDT-KA (fairly hard to get) and being a CGC evaluator (fairly easy to get). As to titles a CGC is nice, but I also would want more in the way of titles, but then again my training goals are very different from those of people who want a polite dog to stroll downtown or lounge on the sofa with them.


ETA: Poodlebeguiled I think we were typing at the same time. It is using the methods that suit the moment that makes we try to use all of the quadrants as I see the need while training that you hit on that should be important. I wish I was retired and had enough time to wait Javelin out for some things, but I don't have tons of time and I also really don't want him to rehearse incorrect responses more than once especially if I know he understands what he is supposed to do. This morning I took a private session with my trainer and we had some mistakes while trying to figure out if he really really understood what we working on (yes for one part and sort of for the other part). I then stayed for class and while the other people were getting organized for class Deb told me in no uncertain terms to keep on top of the part he was making I don't understand mistakes about and to not allow him to rehearse incorrect performances. Since he really craves good information and worries about being wrong he was actually super happy that I helped him stay on track. I can always read him by how happy his tail is. He rarely drops it, but if he is ambivalent he wags very little and slowly. In class today even though I was doing a fair amount of micromanaging he had a super happy tail.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Lily, the trainer i spoke with is with APDT--no mention of CPDT on her website that i can find. She is certified through the Animal Behavior College. I don't pretend to know what any of that means! So i appreciate your comments on what carries weight and what doesn't.


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## iwaftsd (Apr 23, 2019)

In response about corrections not giving information, such as in agility training. 

I disagree. It depends quite a bit on the individual dog. My dog, for example, hates guessing. He doesn't mind a bit of shaping if I give him clues, but free shaping frustrates him and he gives up. It's no longer fun. 

I have several corrections. "No" is like playing hot/cold, it's not at all aversive and actually helps to communicate what I want. It is technically a correction, though, because it is positive punishment (adding in a verbal cue to let him know that's not what I'm looking for (discouraging the behavior)), but he sees it as a helpful nudge in the right direction. I also have "uh-uh", meaning simply "don't do that". This is something that applies in situations like when he's thinking about rummaging through the trash. Then there's some physical corrections (generally a leash pop or gentle push) which are mainly used when he's so hyperfocused that my voice does nothing and he needs a physical tap on the shoulder. Even these aren't aversive to him, just stronger reminders to knock it off. 

The last two, the "uh-uh" or a physical correction, I would _never_ use while my dog is learning something. Because it is discouraging. But they do have their use in times where he already knows something and is doing it anyway. 

The first one, though, gives him very helpful information to help guide him in the right direction and I do use it while he's learning something if he's really lost. It decreases frustration and increases motivation for him and helps us communicate better. But it is positive punishment. 


I imagine that for some dogs PR and NP alone work really great since some love puzzling things out, and in that case you should definitely do that, but some dogs benefit greatly from the correct use of PP. That's why I place far greater importance on being able to tailor training methods to each individual dog over specific individual training methods. Thinking again of my old agility trainer who was so insistent on only using free shaping (and actually scolded me if I lured anything) that my dog actually shut down in the middle of one of our lessons (refused treats and was giving stress signals, which she tried to blame on him not liking the treats which was bull).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You might be interested in this:https://www.clickertraining.com/node/179


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Luna, I think you have hit on an important point that cannot be repeated often enough which is that not all dogs (or people) learn the same way. We are all individuals. As I just discussed last night with a colleague about the importance of personalized medicine. For example I have horrible adverse reactions to all statins, clearly I have a funky enzyme that can't handle them but they save other people.


Another important thing about verbal markers (also my preference to clickers) is that I can mark different situations differently. I use uh oh or oops as my negative markers (followed by a new order) when I want to keep working something. I say no if the dog has to totally stop what it is doing. Good means I like what you are doing but we will keep going and Yes! means that was awesome buddy and here is your cookie we'll take a break while you enjoy it.


APDT is the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (basically started by Ian Dunbar as the Association of Pet Dog Trainers). Anyone can join (I am a member. CCPDT (the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers) requires a minimum of 300 hours working as a trainer, requires a reference from a veterinarian, requires your agreement to their code of ethics and the statement agreeing to use the LIMA philosophy and that you pass a 250 question exam that covers training, learning theory and husbandry. It is not an easy certification to get. I only know two people who are CPDT certified and I am currently studying for the exam (I keep procrastinating it, but will make myself be ready for the next exam period in the fall). I don't know much about animal behavior college other than that it is sort of expensive.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Thank you for elaborating on that. It seems like both of these trainers are pretty equal as far as affiliations or training background. They have different approaches, so I'll be interested to see how flexible they are in practice, when I observe. I like the idea of the possibility of a variety of verbal markers; this seems like what i saw when I watched the Jean Donaldson video.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

iwaftsd, I meant to reply to your excellent query, what I'm looking for in training my pup--very good question. I'm hoping to train it as a therapy dog, so I can do school and hospital visits. And, I'm interested in picking one sport that the dog seems inclined toward, like tracking, rally, or even agility. I'm not interested in being a competitor as much as just doing something fun and challenging with my dog.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Returning with another comment, since I've now talked with both trainers by phone. I will be observing a puppy class taught by the trainer who uses clicker-training; the other trainer only teaches private lessons, so it might be hard for me to see her in action. I had a much more positive impression of the puppy class teacher after talking with her. I'll call her trainer B, and the private trainer, trainer A so this doesn't get too confusing!

When I asked trainer A which well-known trainers she took as inspirations, she didn't name anyone, she said her method was a combination learned over the years. In that call i listed names including Jean Donaldson, and she didn't seem to recognize the names until i mentioned "Culture Clash" and she said she recommends that book to people, but she hadn't remembered the author's name. She said she'd read parts of it but not all of it. She also said she didn't like clicker training because you have to "wean" the dog off the clicker. I'd heard this before. When I asked her what she'd do about the barking GSD, she was most concerned about whether the puppy would learn that it's okay to bark at the fence (I wasn't worried about that).

Meanwhile, when I talked with trainer B, I said I'm reading books by Jean Donaldson and Patricia McConnell, and she immediately listed the titles of their best-known books, and said she loves McConnell, especially "for the love of a dog," which i hadn't mentioned. (This struck me, obviously, as a very different response from trainer A.) She also seemed very flexible in her approach--if the people she's working with would rather use a word instead of a clicker, that's fine with her, etc. When I asked about weaning off the clicker she said that was not necessary and that a lot of people misunderstand that. (She explained in more detail.) Then when I mentioned the barking GSD, she said we would deal with it, her main concern would be if the pup gets scared when it's going into our backyard because of the dog. (This is exactly what I had been concerned about, but I'm hoping it won't happen.) She offered an example of an approach she'd take in that situation. I was impressed with her. I'm going to observe her class this week, and then i'll have more data.

Thank you all again!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well then Door B for sure unless you see something at the class that doesn't float your boat. For a puppy I don't recommend private training (and I do some private training). It is vastly more important for your puppy to spend time with other puppies and to learn dog to dog manners. After that if you had very specific things you wanted to work on a private trainer might be good, but for well adjusted dogs I think classes are best. Working in private in your home is better if you have issues such as leash reactivity, jumping up and being pushy and such. After one gets those under control in the home then it gets taken on the road by going back to class.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I would skip the private trainer. She doesn't appear to be well read on the subject of dog training and you don't need private lessons for a puppy.

Puppy's priority is socialization.

I do use a clicker in my training - but selectively and not often. I prefer to use words - they perform the same task as the clicker. When the dog performs the task correctly you can "click" or say "your marker word". Whether you click or just mark with a word the training is basically the same. It's good for the dog to know both techniques and it doesn't matter if you start with a clicker or introduce it later.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I agree, B all the way! I wouldn't even consider A.


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Thank you all! This was my reaction as well. And i totally agree about the socializing! Because my family (other than me) has not had dogs before, I was thinking that at least one session with a trainer at our house might be useful in better orienting them about how to communicate with the dog.
I hope the class is good- the place is well-liked and, for later on, they offer classes in agility, obedience, rally, and nose work, some of which I'd like to try.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh now the idea of having an in home private to help your other family members figure out people to dog communication is actually rather a good idea. Would the puppy class person possibly do that for you?


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## MustLoveDogs (Apr 20, 2019)

Yes, she would! She does private training as well as the classes.


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