# I need advice on my runaway spoo.



## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

This morning Zero (14 month old spoo) decided to visit her friend Queenie across the field. She has done this about 5 times and it is getting old. She (mostly) comes when called - but my neighbor asked me the other day if she was deaf - because she was chasing chickens and COMPLETELY ignored me until I got right up to her. Then she comes and wags and sits and acts like she is surprised to see me! So I guess this is 2 questions:
1. How do I re-act when she finally does decide to come to me - like this morning she was halfway across the field, but when I whistled she came right to me. So she should not have been in the field, but she did come. I told her "good come" but wasn't very enthustiastic and then just took her collar and led her back into the house, but I don't know how to praise the 'come' but discourage the 'run'.
2. This is sort of the same question, but when her prey drive kicks in she ABSOLUTELY ignores me and will not 'leave it' or come until she decides it is time. She is a cat chaser and will not stop if they run - I wish I could train the cats not to run - but that is another story! So how do I re-act when I finally get her? I am usually pretty angry at that point, but do not take it out on her - but how do I discourage the ignoring without making her scared to come?

And PLEASE do not tell me to fence her or only take her out on a leash. I tried that and her behavior is worse, she NEVER came and it was not good for her health or confidence. I have returned to obedience classes after having the summer off, but of course the ADD or OCD prey drive does not occur in obedience class! 

Thanks


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Some of my advice would be what you do not want to hear 

Teaching a high prey dog NOT to do what they instinctively do regardless is near impossible without fencing, tie out or leashing. Why? Because if the dog is not with in your reach to correct this there will be no forward progress. You are out of their reach and there mind is not on you.

Is she killing the animals or playing with them? 

A behaviorists might be helpful in addition to obedience. They can help you out one on one and come to you and set up situations to observe Zero. The money to do this is close to having training classes.

I find some form of daily obedience helps a dog strengthen their skills and also handler.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

Always praise when she comes. Coming to you should always be a good thing. 

And you might not like my answer either but I agree she should be on some sort of leash. Mia drags a 30ft long line when she isn't fenced in(my parents house). I don't hold onto it, and she can run as much as she likes. But if she does decide to not listen I can get her back easier. She's used to it and it doesn’t interfere with her playing. When I call her I don't want her to think she can ignore me. Until Mia has a 100% recall, even when chasing a squirrel she will not be unconfined without a leash for her safety.


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Yeah - the trick with her is - I do tie her and keep her close and she does well. Then I think she is OK and poof there she goes! The prey thing is separate from the running away- so far. She has never left the yard while chasing, and eventually comes - it is the middle where we have issue. And I agree - we need more work together. As for the killing - so far she has not killed cat or chicken - I think she likes the chase better. She comes back with dead mice and bunny parts, but I am pretty sure they are cat left overs. I really am blessed that she is pretty safe when she runs - she takes the field to the Amish neighbors. And there are only maybe 10 cars per day that go by my house. This does not make it acceptable - but I am not letting her loose in the middle of town. I have in the past been over protective and had dogs turn out not knowing they were dogs - it has not turned out well - so I am trying to let Zee be a dog and do what she needs to do...within my parameters. It is coming, but we aren't there yet. Most of it is my frustration of having to praise her when she does come, when I am still mad at her! And my laziness in expecting she is at the same point my 14 YEAR old dog was when she is only 14 MONTHS. Thanks for the advice. My vet has suggested I get her in to tracking classes so she can have an outlet. I may look into it.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Was she chasing the neighbor's chickens? Where I live, a dog can be shot for that. :scared: 


She doesn't come when you call because she has not ever really been taught a true recall. A dog that has a true recall will stop doing whatever it is doing and come immediately regardless of the distraction. There are many ways to teach a recall from clicker training to e-collar. It has to be taught systematically though. It is not going to just happen on its own. I'm sorry, I know you don't want to hear this, but this dog should not be off a long line/leash until it is trained.


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

You might also want to work on her manners with a leash. She's learned that all she has to do is misbehave and then you stop using the leash. Working her on a 30 ft (they also have 50 ft) leash will help you work on proofing her recall and stop her from getting so far away from you.
Also, make sure that coming back to you is the BEST thing in the world. Have a party with praise and treats when she comes to you (and make sure she is coming right up to you, don't praise her for coming and saying a foot away).


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> I have in the past been over protective and had dogs turn out not knowing they were dogs - it has not turned out well


Can you explain what you mean by this? I am over protective with my dog, and sure as heck knows he is a dog. Just a very well mannered dog.
Also, when she was onleash before, but acted "worse", HOW exactly was she worse? 
You live on a farm? It could of been teh fact that when she was onleash she wasnt getting as much exercise as running free allows. If she is on leash then you need to supply her with more exercise so she doesnt "act worse". 

I dont mean to sound rude, but i think you are looking for a maricle cure if you dont want to fence or leash. You mush at least long line her to get a good recall which is what you are ultimatly looking for. I really hope she doesnt get into trouble or hurt in the mean time.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Once again with the advice you don't want  ... if the dog doesn't have a good recall, she shouldn't be off lead. 

If I steal fjm's useful Good Things for Poodles theorem, it helps look at it from her point of view:

- I run over to the neighbor's, there are friends and good things to smell and chase = GTFP
- I chase things, they run, this is fun = GTFP
- Mom gets hold of me = no more GTFP
- Mom calls me next time I run away ... hmm, likely to be end of GTFP, I think I'll pass

My dog is off lead and has been from the time he was tiny, in safe areas, under supervision. From day one, we have played constant recall games, with lots of treats and praise and toys. He sees coming back to me as MORE fun than whatever else might be out there (most of the time; he's not 100%). He's 15 months now, and I'm trying to fade the treats for most of his solid obedience work, but he still gets treats for a recall. If I happen not to have any, I make a huge fuss of him for a recall when we are out in the park with other dogs and lots of distractions. I want it always to be a super positive thing for him. 

But, even though we only walk 1 block home from the park along a quiet 1 lane road, he still goes on the lead. For me, the cost-benefit calculation ... 99% recall vs. 1% chance of running in front of a car = he goes on the lead.

Tracking sounds like fun. Or agility or flyball or rally. Anything that makes you more fun than the rest of the whole wide world will improve her recall. But it won't magically happen without effort on your part, and it's unrealistic to expect a young dog to want to come away from motivating things without a bigger motivation.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Mumzilla said:


> 1. How do I re-act when she finally does decide to come to me - like this morning she was halfway across the field, but when I whistled she came right to me. So she should not have been in the field, but she did come. I told her "good come" but wasn't very enthustiastic and then just took her collar and led her back into the house, but I don't know how to praise the 'come' but discourage the 'run'.


If it were me, I would have been throwing whole hot dogs at her and doing the happy dance. She broke off from a distraction and came when called ... she should be getting the super duper jackpot for that.

If she hasn't been taught "stay in the yard", the concept is not going to exist for her. I'm not even sure how I would teach that, maybe with lots of visible marker flags and lots of training.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

On the recall - yep, coming to you must mean the very, very best GTFP - treats, celebration, and - perhaps most important here - let her go to run and play again. Over and over again. If you really, really work on it, you will be able to call her off the cats and chickens. In the meantime I would not let her have any opportunity of chasing chickens - sooner or later she will catch one, and perhaps twig that they are food. Then you really are in trouble. Leash, long line, whatever it takes.


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

Mia has a cue "go play." Even when she's on her long line she tends to stick close by until she hears "go play" then she takes off running. Perhaps you could start using something like that to give her permission to run through the field. It might take a long time for her to understand what it means though.

When she was younger I would alternate a recall with Go Play over and over and over... in the yard, the house, in puppy class. When she came she might get food, a toy, or another go play. Just last week I called her off a squirrel. I was amazed! And I didn't have any treats on me so I sat down in the alley behind my house and she climbed all over me while we celebrated. I'm sure my neighbors thought I had totally lost it! But she loved it!


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks to those of you who actually answered my questions -JE UK and fjm-- your responses helped a lot. A piece of advice back to people who start a sentence with "I don't mean to be rude but..." You may as well spit in my face, because it is obvious your intention is to be rude. And it is 'miracle', and yes, I am lazy and am hoping for the miracle cure! But the reinforcement of my own thought that I should praise even when I am seething will help. I will not put her on a trailing long lead - I have seen what can happen when a fast powerful dog gets a trailing lead tangled as he runs - it was horrible. I have seen a horse break his neck doing the same thing. I am going to have to get both Zee and myself back into obedience and keep a better eye on her outside - her last jaunt was my fault - I did leave her unattended. Just to clarify - we are in the middle of nowhere and she is safe - but obviously I don't want her running the neighborhood, or I wouldn't have asked advice. My neighbors will not shoot her for chasing the chickens - their dog has come a-calling to my house as well! She also has severe submissive piddling issues and has had since I got her. This is MUCH worse when she is only excercised on leash - we have gone for a 2 mile walk and she is still bouncing and full of energy. She is one of those dogs that needs to full out run to 'get her willies out' and I could have a 100 foot leash and still not keep up!
And in regards to my other 'over protected' dog - we lived in town when she was a puppy so she was never off leash or out of the fenced yard. She was neurotic, fearful and eventually became very aggressive. We moved to our current house and she was able to go out off leash and we were able to keep her another 4 years. 
So again - thanks for the good advice.


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## Penjilum-Poodles (Apr 17, 2010)

I would def. praise her when she comes! Do the happy dance, your the best dog in the world!!!
She has a high prey drive and looks like she has "selective hearing..." (my boston has selective hearing and she is actually deaf, but she sees me giving her a hand signal and she just pretends like she doesn't see me, her body signals tells me she fully saw what i told her to do... lol!)
It will be constant battle to work with since you prefer not to leash or fence, but like someone else mentioned yummy treats, training, and working with her will get things alot better. 
I think it would be really great if you got to get her to come right away on recall, if you can stop her in her tracks RIGHT AWAY when she does some chasing or just to bring her back to you is a great step in the right direction.

My neighbor down the street used to let her dog free and he came over and chased my chickens one day, ended up ripping my hen's whole back end feathers off and she was bloody and raw. I was so pissed, but i didn't blame the dog, i blamed the owner, she should have never let him free. I told her how i felt (we have a respectful neighbor friendship, she is very kind) and she completely respected my feelings (she also has chickens herself!) and never lets him loose anymore. She came over right away when it happened and tried to give me money, she was so sorry but i told her no, just make sure he is kept tied, instead of loose. 

We also live in the middle of no where but i hate coming across a dog on my road because the owner leaves their dog off leash. It's just the tenseness that i feel when passing, praying their dog is tied up and not let loose, praying the dog is nice, that it won't attack my dog or me. I think it's more respectful of someone to leash their dog because they have to put themselves in other peoples shoes. I've been bitten by a dog, and it's enough for me to loose trust when encountering a dog. 

If your neighbors are 100% fine with your girl being loose then it's not like your disrespecting their wishes. 

Wishing you and your girl the very best!


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Yeah, my neighbors are the absolute best - their dog has actually killed a few of their chickens and now has to be tied - so sad becasue she is such a sweet dog (see photo forum on Zero's play date). Zero was tied out most of the day with my husband while he cut wood (I was at work). I took her for a long retractable leash walk and then put her inside while I worked with the horses. I let her out with me when it got dusk because she is afraid of the dark so I know she wouldn't run far. We worked on recall and leave it and she did very well and got big loves. She ran around the house ful tilt boogie about 4 times and then went and pooped - it dawned on me that she hadn't pooped in 2 days because she hadn't been let out to run free - which poses another problem if I were to only leash her. She is now passed out on the couch. 
And I agree with not just letting her wander - I have other neighbors who have 3 dogs and I have actually hit one of them - the dog was not hurt - I was going very slowly because I was expecting it to dart out and chase me like it does all the time, but I felt awful.


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

@ CelticKitti - your response didn't show up to me until after my other post. Go Play is my release cue as well. Thanks for the thought though - I'll keep repeating the sequence - and I think I am going to do a lot of training outside in the dark because I know she won't go far!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> Thanks to those of you who actually answered my questions -JE UK and fjm-- your responses helped a lot. A piece of advice back to people who start a sentence with "I don't mean to be rude but..." You may as well spit in my face, because it is obvious your intention is to be rude. And it is 'miracle', and yes, I am lazy and am hoping for the miracle cure!


I really think you took the whole tone of my post wrong, and for that I am sorry. I perhaps should of written it differently. I was only concerned that your dog would get hurt or worse. Just this morning i had a client call to say her loose dog got taken by coyotes. As for the "rude" comment, it was not a spit in your face remark. It was more of an "I know you wont like my response so i am trying to clairify that i am NOT saying it out of spite". 
Forgive me for being in a rush and trying to help and respond to your post and not spell checking or proof reading.

As for the pooping on leash thing, my dog would NOT "go" on a leash since he was a puppy. The only thing that broke him of that was being in a cast and having to be 6' leash walked. After a few days it broke him of that really quickly!  Now he doesnt have a problem!


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

Perhaps keep her on a harness with a long drag line. You can interrupt the behavior when needed, but she's not going to damage herself. I do not let dogs off lead until they have a solid recall. Every time they ignore the recall command, it's just reinforcing the fun of that in their minds. It is quite a self rewarding behavior.

I completely disagree with dogs being "overprotected"..I've really never heard of such a thing in regards to leashed dogs. My dogs never run free (leash law as well as the fact that I do not want my dog hit by a car or stolen) but they get out and about plenty. Socializing the dog is the owner's job..be they on leash or otherwise. My dogs get out to stores (the puppy went to Home Depot with us for paint a few weeks ago), go to the fenced park near my home, experience new places..all are very confident dogs. And, all are very dog like in behavior. If a dog is never exposed to new things, they may be fearful and not confident, but that is not a leash issue..it's a lack of socialization one.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Mumzilla said:


> But the reinforcement of my own thought that I should praise even when I am seething will help.


That can be a real test! There is something about putting on the happy face, even if it is forced, that helps you actually feel happy about finding the positive in what the dog did.

I'm reminded of my obedience trainer, who is utterly BRILLIANT at finding SOMETHING to praise a dog for (or engineering a situation in which she can find something ).


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Oh, the difficulty of the happy face! Sophy did a runner onto the busy road a couple of times - trying to keep the panic out of my voice and call her in a happy way that would bring her back was almost impossible. Then there is calling Poppy away from teasing the cats, and having to be overjoyed when she actually responds ... although I do try to remember to make at least as much fuss of Sophy, who was not teasing the cats in the first place!


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

grab;122974
I completely disagree with dogs being "overprotected"..I've really never heard of such a thing in regards to leashed dogs. My dogs never run free (leash law as well as the fact that I do not want my dog hit by a car or stolen) but they get out and about plenty. Socializing the dog is the owner's job..be they on leash or otherwise. My dogs get out to stores (the puppy went to Home Depot with us for paint a few weeks ago) said:


> The assumption that she is not socialized is quite a leap from having recall issues...no? Zero goes every where with me - it is a standing joke in my family that she will be wearing my daughter's clothes soon (Only child just went to college). I would LOVE to take her into Home Depot - ours will not allow it. But we go to every pet related store we can and she is a very well behaved girl. She was also "the most submissive Spoo I have ever seen" according to my vet (who breeds and shows spoos). She is getting better about the piddling in public because I have made extra effort to get her out - mostly it (piddling) is just at home now - when I put her on a leash--go figure. So to those of you who think I am just an idiot -- there are other reasons behind the not leashing her at home in her yard. And I would also LOVE a fenced park - wow. I actually advertised on Facebook and asked everyone I knew this past spring if I could borrow or rent a fenced yard to work with her - no one had one available.
> 
> @ bigpoodleperson - Thanks for the clarification. I get very bristly when confronted with "I don't mean to...but" statements - my mother is the queen of them! And your 2nd post didn't show up until after I had told celtckitti I hadn't seen hers. So thank you for your advice...I did ask for it:fish:


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

I was actually referencing your first dog, who you said was was fearful and neurotic because she was never out of your fenced yard or allowed to run free. 

I would assume that her behavior improvement came when she was allowed off lead because she then experienced new things in her daily environment and took them in at her own pace. This sort of socialization would naturally lead to a more confident dog. It has little to do with being on or off leash...that same socialization can be gained ON lead..and it is in numerous places across the country where people simply cannot allow their dogs to run free. Many dogs in busy cities, for example, rarely get off lead (except at dog parks, etc) but are well mannered and well adjusted because they're out and about seeing things..not kept solely in the backyard.

Now, the fact that your current dog CAN be off lead in your area is perfectly fine..but she should be kept on leash or a long line until she has a reliable recall. 

Just because your neighbors are ok with her running over there willy nilly (and chasing chickens) doesn't mean that someday they might not move and the new residents will be equally ok. I'd be particularly concerned about the chickens..even if she doesn't outright kill them, they can be easily stressed and pass on from that.


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Ok - thanks again for clarification. But again with assumptions- my first dog was a completely different case - my husband brought her home form a box in front of a store. She was a brindle boxer/beagle cross. I had told my hubby that under no circumstances did I want a puppy under 8 weeks old. So guess how old these box puppy people said she was...8 weeks. She was 4 weeks old. They had NO business separating the litter from the mama, but were going to kill the pups if they didn't get rid of them that day. So I got what was basically an orphan. It was also November in Michigan - so not many socialization opportunities - but again - she went with me in the car and to what ever store I could take her in. I worked with her at every opportunity and took her out as much as we could. It was only at home in my yard that she was always on leash or fenced because I was so paranoid about her getting away. Her brother ended up being taken by the county and put down for aggression (a work buddy of my hubby's took him). She did end up biting my nephew who crawled up on top of her when she was sleeping. She got him in the face and drew blood so after that we had to be extra careful with her. She was a sweet, loving dog until her fear issues kicked in. She was also learning disabled, but was eventually able to get things right, it took a LONG time for her to get a command. Recall was a huge problem at the house in town - we had a friend watch her when we went on vaca and she got out on him - he had to open his truck door and ask her to go bye bye before he could catch her - after 2 hours of trying. After we moved to the country and she was allowed to run, recall was NEVER an issue - she came every time. I did have to have her put down this winter and it broke my heart. She tried to attack a neighbor - out of the blue (except the neighbor was afraid of her). She bit me when I grabbed her collar. She had been exhibiting signs of senilty before then - I just didn't want to see them. So I have done EVERYTHING possible to make sure Zee does not go the same direction. And I think she will be fine. And I think I may have been unclear on her running away - she has NEVER been just turned out and left. It has happened when I get distracted outside- or run in for something. She has never been gone for more 5 minutes before I figure it out. Well - she is now on my lap asking to go out - so here we go!


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

But then, by the same token, you're comparing an unstable, badly bred dog's behavior to that of (what I assume to be) a well bred dog with a stable temperament, was better socialized and attributing the differences in their behavior not to genetics, but to the fact that one of those can run off lead. 

The behavior of our future dogs also change as we learn more, have different training techniques, etc.


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## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Actually, I made the mistake of believing that because I bought Zero from a 'breeder' I was getting a well bred, stable dog. This has not been the case and she has been a challenge from day one, both emotionally and physically. But I adore her and we are working on our issues.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Mumzilla said:


> Actually, I made the mistake of believing that because I bought Zero from a 'breeder' I was getting a well bred, stable dog. This has not been the case and she has been a challenge from day one, both emotionally and physically. But I adore her and we are working on our issues.


I understand that feeling totally. In addition my breeder raises champion miniatures and is an AKC judge. My dog has a serious issue with resource guarding and refuses to settle down or lie down in the house unless kenneled. He requires far more exercise than I was led to believe: minimium 2 hours running off leash daily, and when I say running, I mean flat out as fast as a dog can go. I've seen him outrun pointers and greyhounds. when I contacted my breeder about the resource guarding I was told "oh that wasn't a problem for me" which implies it was my fault. no, I got him at 7 months and the trainer is quite sure it wasn't me that created the problem. 

so I feel your pain. there's no way to know I think whether a dog is good or bad. and when we add our own human frailties in the mix, it's just a complicated situation all around.

I feel for you. Definitely support the party time every time a recall happens. I had to give treats for a recall tonight after my dog bit my BF during a resource guarding incident. But, as scared and strung out as he was, he CAME to me. That may save his life some day in the street. I try to keep that in mind, the long term goal of recall, when I'm faced with those teeth gritting moments.

Hugs,

FM


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

Whether you want to hear it or not your irresponsible for letting your dog off. what happens when your dog gets hit by a car and don't bother with the you live on a country road with no cars because whether there are a lot or little there is still cars. If your dog is freaking out when it's not off leash then that's a problem you made and you need to fix . You also have a dog with high prey drive who clearly doesn't listen to anything when it's in that mode. Another reason it shouldn't be off leash. You need to train him to redirect his attention on you once you do that you can start training recall ( with a leash!) then move to a fenced area and see how she is after she's mastered that move to a fenced area with distractions like a dog park and finally when she's mastered that try it at home. 
She should still never be left alone off leash which baffles me as to why she is now.


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## Lilith (Sep 29, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> If it were me, I would have been throwing whole hot dogs at her and doing the happy dance.


Thanks for the laughing-out-loud to start my work day with! What a hilarious mental image,... :lol:


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