# 5 month old puppy biting during bath and drying



## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

My 5 month old (or he will be in 5 days) standard poodle bites, growls and snarls when I bath and towel dry him. This isn't your typical play biting. He's very mouthy so I know what that's like and this is definitely not playful. Sometimes he'll jump up and try to get my neck/face. He used to just do it during the towelling off and I could distract him with treats but he's slowly gotten worse and now he's doing it during the entire bathing process as well as when he comes in from outside when it's raining and I have to dry him, and he is no longer interested in treats when he's like that. He's completely fine as soon as I leave him alone afterwards and he's fine with me washing or drying his torso but as soon as I touch his head, legs, tail or feet he gets quite vicious and until his canine teeth started falling out I always ended up with very deep bite wounds that hit muscle.

He's not going for the bath hose or towel, if that was the case I wouldn't worry so much but he's going straight for me. This time of year it's raining non stop where I am and I'm drying him off up to 8 times per day so I really need this to stop. After treats stopped working I tried pinning him between my legs so he couldn't move but he bucked around and still managed to bite me. Getting another person to help isn't an option as the only other person in the house is understandably scared of him when he's like that. 

Any and all help is appreciated. Thank you!


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## Zhuhaibill (Jul 10, 2015)

Gee sorry to hear that. Emma enjoys her baths but bites and snaps too while we are trying to dry her. I usually give her a chewie bar to distract her and that works fine. Not sure if this will work for Bowie.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Zhuhaibill said:


> Gee sorry to hear that. Emma enjoys her baths but bites and snaps too while we are trying to dry her. I usually give her a chewie bar to distract her and that works fine. Not sure if this will work for Bowie.


Thanks, I'll keep trying different treats/chews and hopefully one will work eventually!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Of course, you want to use positive reinforcement and distraction to keep your puppy from biting you, but I think it is VERY important that he not be allowed to bite you, especially repeatedly. In case you ever want to take him to a groomer, you need to make sure he does not think he can get away with biting you during baths and drying him.

I would get him a soft fitting muzzle and if food and distractions do not work, put the muzzle on him while you are working on his feet and legs. Keep trying to take it off and use positive means, but a groomer would muzzle your dog if he tried to bite them. 

Once he gets used to being groomed, you will have no need of a muzzle, but it is a good tool to use to prevent him getting bad habits.

In fact, after you have used the muzzle for a while, all you may have to do is wave it at him and say, "Do you want the muzzle?" and he might settle down. You really can't let him continue biting you like you have described. It is not helping him or you to allow him to bite.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I'll get some tomatoes thrown at me but I wouldn't give him anything to distract him. I would just tell him off and let him see that I mean it, I won't back off and he can't get away with it. He can have treats when it's done.

He's not an adult, he's just a puppy who needs to learn manners. It's all in the energy you are transmitting to him. The minute he takes you seriously, he'll stop.

If you don't feel you can do it, ask someone you think could, watch the entire thing, and once you see it's poosible, you will succeed the next time.

Seriously, he's just a puppy. He is testing your limits.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Dechi.....I have to agree with you to a point. I know when ever I went through a bitey stage with pups I always did a very loud "ah, ah, ah" very very loud and firm...(much like the latest advice to yell ouch is given) and it distracted the biting. The only difference is that I never did the 'ignore' and retreat thing but kept doing what I had to do, letting the pup know I meant business and I wasn't going to back down. Only when I was done was the pup rewarded with a treat and a cuddle and a sweet happy voice! No violence or screaming or hitting, just matter of fact handling! They do 'test' you just like a small child! LOL!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I don't know if this is possible for you, but I streamline the door drying routine. Of course, I would love to do a thorough paw by paw dry, but Buck is impatient and fast. I have a bunch of cheap bath towels that I line up by the door and one I can throw over his back. I do as much of a rub as I can as he's snorting microscopic treats from the towels on the floor. We have a tile kitchen and can close doors to confine him from the rest of the house. I'm usually relieved to be out of the downpour myself, toilet/exercise accomplished, without making a drama of re-entry. He is such a good sport in the rain

When he was a puppy, Buck fought brushing like I was torturing him. I have never had a dog that didn't enjoy brushing! PF people advised me to be very businesslike about it, get a shower mat and put him up on a table. Gradually desensitize by ending on a positive note, even if he wasn't done. Lots of nice treats. This is the battle you need to win. A head harness, a ball, a Zen attitude or a businesslike one, Poodles gotta get groomed. Tough.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Thanks so much for all your advice, guys. All very helpful 

He is going to the groomers for the 2nd time next Friday and I'm sure he will be muzzled then as he bit them last time, so I'll find out which one they use and get one for at home to start desensitising him to it. He's started being very naughty and not listening to me when we're out in the yard as well so this will let me leash him out there sometimes without him biting me.

I just gave him a kangaroo tendon while I dried him and that helped to an extent so might try his absolute favourite thing next time (frozen peanut butter kong) and see how that goes.

More than one towel is an excellent idea! We come in through the laundry room so that will work. We're minimalists here and only have two towels per person/animal so I'll get a couple more for Bowie.

I have a total zen attitude when I'm doing these things, and most of the time in general, but he's not very in tune with my emotions at all so I'm not sure it's helping him much. The first four weeks he was here I had post puppy depression lol I was a total wreck and he didn't seem to care at all so yes being business like doesn't work for this guy. Distractions with food and play or time-outs seem to be the only way to curb his naughty behaviour. Of course once the time-out/distraction is over he goes back to being naughty lol but he's still just puppy.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would work on counter conditioning in less stressful circumstances. At the moment it seems to me that you are setting him up to fail - he has told you he does not like having his face and feet touched, but because of the circumstances you have needed to push on, so that he has escalated the warning to really severe biting. This is not a good lesson for a pup to learn - what if he decides to skip the warning next time something happens he does not like, and go straight to biting? 

I would play a touching game many times a day, for really good treats. Hand near head, not so close that he reacts, treat. Touch a toe, or as close as you can get without reaction, treat. Over and over agan, until the touch becomes a reliable predictor of really good stuff. Gradually, as he becomes less anxious, increase the length of the touch until eventually it is more like washing and drying. When he is completely relaxed about being touched go all the way back to the beginning with a small towel in your hand. Then wash one paw... And I would also pay very close attention to his body language and any tiny growl, and show him that you do understand his more subtle communications. That doesn't mean he necessarily gets his own way, of course - just that you avoid pushing him into situations where he feels he has to bite.

Could it be that your upset during the first weeks he was with you disrupted early bonding and bite inhibition training? I think it might be a good idea to involve a qualified behaviourist to ensure this behaviour doesn't escalate.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

illiyh said:


> Thanks so much for all your advice, guys. All very helpful
> 
> He is going to the groomers for the 2nd time next Friday and I'm sure he will be muzzled then as he bit them last time, so I'll find out which one they use and get one for at home to start desensitising him to it. He's started being very naughty and not listening to me when we're out in the yard as well so this will let me leash him out there sometimes without him biting me.
> 
> ...


Put something "yummmy!" in a muzzlw where he can get it with his tongue. Have him put his head in to taste. don't fit the muzzle at first just let him lick it out. eventually he will put his head in the muzzle for you then start setting the straps. He has found that threats and biting works for him in preventing things he does not like. Talk to the groomers. If they are not going the right way they could have caused this problem for you. If so it will be difficult and a long time in rectifying. Instead of avoiding the grooming and drying, do it more often with treats and for a short time. 10 seconds or so. Slowly increase the grooming/drying time. wear protective clothing if needed.
Eric


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

fjm said:


> I would work on counter conditioning in less stressful circumstances. At the moment it seems to me that you are setting him up to fail - he has told you he does not like having his face and feet touched, but because of the circumstances you have needed to push on, so that he has escalated the warning to really severe biting. This is not a good lesson for a pup to learn - what if he decides to skip the warning next time something happens he does not like, and go straight to biting?
> 
> I would play a touching game many times a day, for really good treats. Hand near head, not so close that he reacts, treat. Touch a toe, or as close as you can get without reaction, treat. Over and over agan, until the touch becomes a reliable predictor of really good stuff. Gradually, as he becomes less anxious, increase the length of the touch until eventually it is more like washing and drying. When he is completely relaxed about being touched go all the way back to the beginning with a small towel in your hand. Then wash one paw... And I would also pay very close attention to his body language and any tiny growl, and show him that you do understand his more subtle communications. That doesn't mean he necessarily gets his own way, of course - just that you avoid pushing him into situations where he feels he has to bite.
> 
> Could it be that your upset during the first weeks he was with you disrupted early bonding and bite inhibition training? I think it might be a good idea to involve a qualified behaviourist to ensure this behaviour doesn't escalate.


Thanks for the suggestion! We've actually been doing that every day since he came here and have gone back and started from the beginning several times but he always ends up like this because I don't have any choice but to dry off his feet when he comes in from the rain and that seems to undo any towel-related progress we've made. It's been a lot worse since his ankle was grabbed and pulled by a 3 year old. No lasting damage and the whole incident only lasted about 1 second as I was standing right there supervising and stopped it but it sounded like it hurt quite a bit. He's good with kids so I don't think it was too traumatic but it definitely compounded this issue, and he's been fine with me touching and grabbing him anywhere when the towel isn't around for a while now so at least there's that. He willingly gives paw and high five's now! 

Definitely could have. He has only in the last few weeks developed bite inhibition with his play biting so that would make sense. We're starting with a new trainer in a few weeks so I will ask her about that, thanks!


P.S. Kong didn't work. Going to order a muzzle ASAP and start working on slowly getting him comfortable with that. I think what I'm gonna do for the time being is cover the laundry floor with towels and let him run around and play with them and hopefully he'll get mostly dry doing that.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That sounds like an excellent idea - and like Eric I wondered whether the groomer was compounding the problem. Perhaps a tiny square of towelling to desensitise him to the horror might help? I have put a dirt trapping runner inside my front door - it has made a huge difference to the amount of muck tracked in.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Every day from when each of our dogs came home we have had a game we play involving touching feet, muzzle, tail and private parts. If we are having coffee in bed and there is a dog there one of us will take hold of a foot and say "oh look I caught your foot" while touching the toes and paw pads (do for all feet). We take them by the muzzle and lift their lips and say" wow look at your snarly teeth!", etc. This happens for each dog every day. Try introducing these kinds of activities with lots of positive attitude as the basis of your counter conditioning routine. You must fix this. Biting for grooming or health care is not safe or acceptable.

This is important not just for having a dog be welcome at a groomer but also be happy and relaxed for a vet check or for first aid. Peeves recently cut a paw pad. We were able to do everything needed to take care of it at home since it wasn't too bad. Also I gave heart worm meds yesterday. Javelin is the only one who eats his so for Lily and Peeves I have to make them swallow it. I'd prefer they got it in the first time so I pretty much stick you whole hand in to push the pill so far back they have no choice about swallowing. Nobody ever complains.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

For something I really do not like, I use the dogs name, and say NO, in a very stern and loud voice I find it works best for me rather than using treats.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

illiyh said:


> My 5 month old (or he will be in 5 days) standard poodle bites, growls and snarls when I bath and towel dry him. This isn't your typical play biting. He's very mouthy so I know what that's like and this is definitely not playful. Sometimes he'll jump up and try to get my neck/face. He used to just do it during the towelling off and I could distract him with treats but he's slowly gotten worse and now he's doing it during the entire bathing process as well as when he comes in from outside when it's raining and I have to dry him, and he is no longer interested in treats when he's like that. He's completely fine as soon as I leave him alone afterwards and he's fine with me washing or drying his torso but as soon as I touch his head, legs, tail or feet he gets quite vicious and until his canine teeth started falling out I always ended up with very deep bite wounds that hit muscle.
> 
> He's not going for the bath hose or towel, if that was the case I wouldn't worry so much but he's going straight for me. This time of year it's raining non stop where I am and I'm drying him off up to 8 times per day so I really need this to stop. After treats stopped working I tried pinning him between my legs so he couldn't move but he bucked around and still managed to bite me. Getting another person to help isn't an option as the only other person in the house is understandably scared of him when he's like that.
> 
> Any and all help is appreciated. Thank you!



Please do not follow any advice to be harsh or punishing toward your dog. He is showing defense "aggression" and you never ever want to treat_ any_ kind of aggression with aggression. This needs to be handled with kid gloves. Any time a dog is fearful or just hates something being done, it must be broken down into minuscule parts to desensitize and counter-condition the dog to things he doesn't like. Curing it from the inside out (baby steps) is better all around and longer lasting than covering it up with a Bandaide. (aka punishment) Like Fjm said, a small example of a towel, not a big towel. Pair it with something the dog loves. Use it in a much, much more mild way than the way you have been where your dog is upset by it. Turn it into a game. Play the game several short sessions a day. Go outside and play _chase the towel_ that you wiggle and drag along the ground. Brush it up against your dog in a playful manner, give a treat. Then apply it more closely to the way you'd use it when drying him while you play. But baby steps. I like how you're incorporating touching with high five. You can also teach him to target. Touch the towel with a paw and get a click/treat. Touch other objects. (look up clicker training) 

With aggression, be careful who you take advice from. Some of us are trainers, some with a behavior back ground. It's easy to do but some people tend to _over_ anthropomorphize dogs and apply what makes sense to humans but does not make sense to dogs and instead may merely shut them down. This is a dangerous practice when dealing with a dog that is lunging and biting you at such a young age. When dogs are in a fight or flight (or near fight or flight) state of mind...they're panicking or freaking out, they're not usually very aware of their own behavior. The autonomic nervous system is taking center stage while the cortex is on the back burner and not functioning very well. So the thinking part, this logic people assume dogs have that they're doing something "wrong" or immoral is irrelevant to dogs. Harsh punishment in a situation like this can have some unwanted side effects. Personally, I'd be very careful who you get for a trainer. Discuss philosophies and methods and make sure no one gets rough with your puppy. With things like this desensitization and counter conditioning is the route most behaviorists and savvy trainers, educated in behavior would take. I think you can get this turned around pretty easily with good handling. Most behaviors can be modified in a few weeks. Good luck.

eta: I think a certified behaviorist would be the best bet too in this case.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm not sure I would go for a muzzle at this point. Is that really necessary?


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

ericwd9 said:


> Put something "yummmy!" in a muzzlw where he can get it with his tongue. Have him put his head in to taste. don't fit the muzzle at first just let him lick it out. eventually he will put his head in the muzzle for you then start setting the straps. He has found that threats and biting works for him in preventing things he does not like. Talk to the groomers. If they are not going the right way they could have caused this problem for you. If so it will be difficult and a long time in rectifying. Instead of avoiding the grooming and drying, do it more often with treats and for a short time. 10 seconds or so. Slowly increase the grooming/drying time. wear protective clothing if needed.
> Eric


I'll do that, thanks! 

I am taking him to a different groomer this time. The last one was a mobile groomer and they didn't have a nonslip surface or a grooming arm so Bowie was all over the place and I'm sure that didn't help.



Poodlebeguiled said:


> Please do not follow any advice to be harsh or punishing toward your dog. He is showing defense "aggression" and you never ever want to treat_ any_ kind of aggression with aggression. This needs to be handled with kid gloves. Any time a dog is fearful or just hates something being done, it must be broken down into minuscule parts to desensitize and counter-condition the dog to things he doesn't like. Curing it from the inside out (baby steps) is better all around and longer lasting than covering it up with a Bandaide. (aka punishment) Like Fjm said, a small example of a towel, not a big towel. Pair it with something the dog loves. Use it in a much, much more mild way than the way you have been where your dog is upset by it. Turn it into a game. Play the game several short sessions a day. Go outside and play _chase the towel_ that you wiggle and drag along the ground. Brush it up against your dog in a playful manner, give a treat. Then apply it more closely to the way you'd use it when drying him while you play. But baby steps. I like how you're incorporating touching with high five. You can also teach him to target. Touch the towel with a paw and get a click/treat. Touch other objects. (look up clicker training)
> 
> With aggression, be careful who you take advice from. Some of us are trainers, some with a behavior back ground. It's easy to do but some people tend to _over_ anthropomorphize dogs and apply what makes sense to humans but does not make sense to dogs and instead may merely shut them down. This is a dangerous practice when dealing with a dog that is lunging and biting you at such a young age. When dogs are in a fight or flight (or near fight or flight) state of mind...they're panicking or freaking out, they're not usually very aware of their own behavior. The autonomic nervous system is taking center stage while the cortex is on the back burner and not functioning very well. So the thinking part, this logic people assume dogs have that they're doing something "wrong" or immoral is irrelevant to dogs. Harsh punishment in a situation like this can have some unwanted side effects. Personally, I'd be very careful who you get for a trainer. Discuss philosophies and methods and make sure no one gets rough with your puppy. With things like this desensitization and counter conditioning is the route most behaviorists and savvy trainers, educated in behavior would take. I think you can get this turned around pretty easily with good handling. Most behaviors can be modified in a few weeks. Good luck.
> 
> eta: I think a certified behaviorist would be the best bet too in this case.


We're all about positive reinforcement here, don't worry! The new trainer we're starting with is too. 

I just assumed it was frustration but defence makes sense too. He's totally fine playing with towels and he does it all the time, he even lets me "play dry" him like you said, he just hates having his feet and face actually washed and dried. I think he just hates being restrained and when I'm washing or drying his feet in particular he can't really move. I'll keep at it and start over with a smaller towel like you guys suggested and I'll do it when he's not actually wet so we can go at Bowie's pace. If he needs to stop then we will. For now having towels all over the laundry floor and letting him play in there for 5 mins to dry off is working just fine so hopefully I can finally get him used to having his feet and face dried off as we won't have to rush it.



Mfmst said:


> I'm not sure I would go for a muzzle at this point. Is that really necessary?


At this stage not really as he has no canine teeth right now so his bites aren't even breaking skin, but the trainer/vet nurse at puppy school suggested all dogs get used to wearing a muzzle just in case so I think we'll do it anyway. She said you never know when they're gonna panic and be forced into one when it's out of your control so best they get comfortable wearing one at home. They get heaps of dogs in their vet clinic that have never been in a crate, worn a muzzle or been restrained at all and it's very stressful for them when they're forced into doing something they're not used to.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That's not a bad idea to get them use to a muzzle just in case. It can all be done slowly...just feed through the hole and gradually, over a few day's time move the thing closer. Then put on but don't strap, treat, then take off. A few days of that, start increasing duration, reinforcing all along. In a week or two, the dog should be okay with it. Otherwise, I'd say not a good idea if no time to condition him.

I think I interpreted your post a little wrong in thinking certain things bothered him that didn't. I think you're going about things the right way and with a little help hands on by a qualified trainer...who can observe and evaluate, you'll get this guy to be okay with it. 

Indeed it could be that he just doesn't like it and is being "defiant." But regardless of the reason behind it, generally speaking, behaviors are modified in about the same way, this being no exception. It still needs patience, desensitizing and extinguishing a behavior while showing the dog an alternate behavior that works to his advantage. (baby steps that help him succeed and rewards for those baby steps) Lots of times we don't know the reason or cause of a behavior but most of the time, there are certain principles and concepts in learning theory that modify behavior regardless of the cause. Lots of trainers and behaviorists don't dwell too much on the cause but enact certain protocols that change behavior. 

I think clicker training is loads of fun and if your dog starts learning this way, that might in itself get him even more on board with this. Clicker trained dogs with some experience behind them (or sometimes referred to as _operant _dogs) learn HOW TO learn better and faster. They learn to try things that will make you click/treat. Dogs that get punished a lot don't tend to offer behaviors spontaneously as much. Dogs trained with PR tend to behave better in a global way, not just with the behavior you're trying to teach because they get in the habit of being compliant or trying to be_ because_ it works! lol. And dogs do what works. I've had a lot of success with behavior modification of all kinds of wonky behaviors. I'm really glad you're looking into some good methods of training. If you need any book recommendations, I think there's a thread somewhere with lots of good ideas. You can do a search if you want. Best of luck. Keep us posted on how things go. I really hope you get some good, professional help with this because things like this can make life pretty miserable.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> That's not a bad idea to get them use to a muzzle just in case. It can all be done slowly...just feed through the hole and gradually, over a few day's time move the thing closer. Then put on but don't strap, treat, then take off. A few days of that, start increasing duration, reinforcing all along. In a week or two, the dog should be okay with it. Otherwise, I'd say not a good idea if no time to condition him.
> 
> I think I interpreted your post a little wrong in thinking certain things bothered him that didn't. I think you're going about things the right way and with a little help hands on by a qualified trainer...who can observe and evaluate, you'll get this guy to be okay with it.
> 
> ...


Yeah so far everything that we've introduced slowly he's been absolutely fine with so I'm sure it will be the same for the muzzle.

Just like behaviour modification in humans, I suppose! I have OCD and previously agoraphobia so I know all about that lol. It's tough and takes a long time but it works. Doesn't matter the cause, as long as you stick at it. I assume it's pretty much the same for dogs. We brought home a highly fearful rescue dog about 15 years back and we rehabilitated her 100% within 2 years. She ended up being a very confident dog. You would never have known she was ever so scared of everything. All it took was time and patience, both of which I thankfully have plenty.

Agreed! Clicker training is great. I've only been doing it for about 2 months though. Bowie learns so much faster when we're using the clicker. He learned the high five after 3 repetitions which with his feet issues I thought was pretty amazing! And now it's his favourite trick and he's always high fiving everyone without being asked haha. When he sees that clicker he knows it's training time and instantly sits in front of me waiting for instruction lol it's pretty cute. And if I get it out but don't ask him to do anything he starts trying all the different things he's learned, just like you said. We're doing free shaping as well which I don't use use a clicker for but I might start carrying it around. He still jumps all over the counters, baby gates, doors, people... pretty much everything lol so maybe the clicker will help with that.

I've read a few training books already but only puppy ones and I just preordered Zac George's Dog Training Revolution book (he has a show on youtube if you didn't know. Seems like a really great positive reinforcement trainer and has helped me a lot) and I'll have a look for that thread for sure, thank you!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Nip that counter surfing in the bud! Since it is a self rewarding habit (look I found a piece of pie up there) it is a very hard habit to break once the dog has paid itself a couple of times.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Nip that counter surfing in the bud! Since it is a self rewarding habit (look I found a piece of pie up there) it is a very hard habit to break once the dog has paid itself a couple of times.


once a dog starts counter surfing it is very hard to break the habit. Just one rewarded surf. (look daddy I got a steak) and they are hooked for life. Leave counters free from food.
I praise god that Grace, on the first attempt, caused the plate upon which her forthcoming meal was upon, caused the plate to fall, break and make a loud noise. i was very close by and gave her a big "NO" Ever since she has not tried even when a big steak has been evident. She will allow her nose to creep up to bench height and snifffff. I do cut pieces off and feed them to her with "good girls" Guess I'm lucky.
Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

ericwd9 said:


> once a dog starts counter surfing it is very hard to break the habit. Just one rewarded surf. (look daddy I got a steak) and they are hooked for life. Leave counters free from food.
> I praise god that Grace, on the first attempt, caused the plate upon which her forthcoming meal was upon, caused the plate to fall, break and make a loud noise. i was very close by and gave her a big "NO" Ever since she has not tried even when a big steak has been evident. She will allow her nose to creep up to bench height and snifffff. I do cut pieces off and feed them to her with "good girls" Guess I'm lucky.
> Eric



Yes you are lucky for sure. Lily got chicken when I was nowhere nearby and has been a dedicated surfer ever since. Javelin, monkey see, monkey do. It does make me be better about cleaning the counters.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh that counter surfing! Ahhhh...:ahhhhh: My Dobe did that. I had to keep the counters completely cleared of anything he might like for a looooong time. My GSD did it too but he took things like Porterhouse steaks off the grill. Grrrr. If a smart dog gets to practice this behavior, sometimes it only takes once and you're doomed. That's yet another benefit of having dogs that are 8 and 10 inches tall. lol.

Anyhow, as far as that spontaneous high five, my Chihuahua did that. (my little girl, rip) It was annoying. So, I buckled down and began ignoring her (absolutely) when it _wasn't _cued. _Only_ the cued responses got reinforced. Pretty soon, that behavior died down.

You're right. Behavior is behavior is behavior. There are some adjustments to be made to accommodate different species but the concepts or principles are straight across the board. 

That's cool that you rehabilitated that dog. It is a very rewarding thing to see or be a part of. And I'm glad you're doing so much better in your areas of behavior that gave you trouble. Wonderful to see! 

Well, it will be cool to see how things go with your precious one.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I think I may be "doomed" on the counter surfing with Abbey, we have to be ever vigilant. 
She's always watching...


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

I'm reading this thread with great interest! Abby, fortunately, is pretty short to be a true counter surfer at our place, but she's crafty and can do the poodle stand to snag things close to the edge. She's also sometimes a little thief and will try to snag food out of a loose, casual hand that could be offering food, at least in her mind. I've been reinforcing the use of the word "okay" and eye contact or a commanded task before giving food out of hand.

Abby was also never big into biting, more puppy mouthing/playbiting and more often lots of licking. Like, a LOT of licking. We're working on that, too, because she likes to lick lotion off hands and legs. I swear it's not bacon scented lotion, either, just fragrance-free Lubriderm. 

Why I'm reading this post is all the advice and discussion on training a dog away from undesirable behavior, especially biting. I'm eventually going to get a second dog (probably a spoo, maybe a dobe for a respite from hair care LOL) and that puppy may have similar biting responses. Thankfully, there's the PF. With my husband suffering numerous dog bites in his life and the fact that we have cats, we just can't have a dog who has no or poor bite inhibition in the house.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I had a pointer that was food obsessed and would take dishes out of the sink to lick them and in the interim broke all of my good set of dishes. One time I baked a cake , left it on the stove and went to get my daughter from school. We got home and I didn't notice the cake was gone for a while because the dog did a great job of cleaning up every crumb.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Nip that counter surfing in the bud! Since it is a self rewarding habit (look I found a piece of pie up there) it is a very hard habit to break once the dog has paid itself a couple of times.


Yes and it's made even worse by cats sitting on the bench meowing! We don't leave food out but they are more than enough to keep him jumping up. I tried for 4 years to get them to stay off the counters but cats will be cats, and now they're making it extremely difficult to keep Bowie off there. 

Edit: reading all these counter surfing stories is making me lose hope lol the cats aren't going anywhere so I doubt Bowie will stop.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I never leave food on the countertops, but I have family visiting and it is a full house! Today someone left a fresh batch of turkey bacon on the counter, and even though it was pushed all the way back...guess who decided to have a couple of pieces?


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

kglad said:


> I'm reading this thread with great interest! Abby, fortunately, is pretty short to be a true counter surfer at our place, but she's crafty and can do the poodle stand to snag things close to the edge. She's also sometimes a little thief and will try to snag food out of a loose, casual hand that could be offering food, at least in her mind. I've been reinforcing the use of the word "okay" and eye contact or a commanded task before giving food out of hand.
> 
> Abby was also never big into biting, more puppy mouthing/playbiting and more often lots of licking. Like, a LOT of licking. We're working on that, too, because she likes to lick lotion off hands and legs. I swear it's not bacon scented lotion, either, just fragrance-free Lubriderm.
> 
> Why I'm reading this post is all the advice and discussion on training a dog away from undesirable behavior, especially biting. I'm eventually going to get a second dog (probably a spoo, maybe a dobe for a respite from hair care LOL) and that puppy may have similar biting responses. Thankfully, there's the PF. With my husband suffering numerous dog bites in his life and the fact that we have cats, we just can't have a dog who has no or poor bite inhibition in the house.


Bowie was a terrible play biter and is only now starting to get better with clicker training him not to jump up and bite sleeves (and get some skin in the process). If you have issues in the future you will get so much great advice here  for Bowie it was just a waiting game + clicker for the clothes biting. Now he has great bite inhibition when it comes to regular play biting at hands but a month ago was a totally different story! I'm covered in scars but it was worth it. He's turning into such an amazing guy. 

So sorry about your husbands bites. I've had one serious dog bite in my life and it was quite traumatising. And I totally know what you mean about the cats. I would never forgive myself if Bowie got one of them but luckily when he gets close enough, which is rare as the cats hate him lol, he just sniffs. Hopefully your future puppy is the same way. 

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Counter surfing - when I was young my Siamese cat used to counter surf for my mother's miniature poodle, knocking pieces off meat down to her so that she could share the pickings. A later Siamese famously ate a whole leg of the Christmas turkey, despite the pantry being festooned with signs to keep the door shut lest the cat got in. Someone carefully shut the door, but with the cat on the inside...

My dogs can't reach counters, but I have to be pretty careful about where I put a plate down - Sophy in particular can climb like a squirrel. Anyone else ever wondered why they have no recollection of eating the second croissant, and then found a few tiny tell tale crumbs on the floor?!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

fjm said:


> My dogs can't reach counters, but I have to be pretty careful about where I put a plate down - Sophy in particular can climb like a squirrel. Anyone else ever wondered why they have no recollection of eating the second croissant, and then found a few tiny tell tale crumbs on the floor?!


Our old Lab was never a counter surfer, with one exception. I baked a loaf of bread one afternoon and left it on the counter to cool while my husband and I were out. When we came back, the entire loaf was gone--no crumbs, no crust, just gone. Unless someone broke in and took nothing but the bread, or one of us ate it and forgot (not likely, I'm guessing--we were considerably younger at the time), it had to be Luke, but he left no evidence. Never happened again.

Blue, on the other hand, is an unreformable sneak thief. Last week I left a tube of a topical medicine in its box on the counter in the bathroom. I've done it many times before with no problem. Jazz brought the undamaged (thank god) tube to Rich, but the box had vanished and was never seen again. I've always been careful about keeping pill bottles well secured, but for some reason, I didn't think this would tempt him, didn't consider how obsessed he is with paper of any kind.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

JudyD said:


> Our old Lab was never a counter surfer, with one exception. I baked a loaf of bread one afternoon and left it on the counter to cool while my husband and I were out. When we came back, the entire loaf was gone--no crumbs, no crust, just gone. Unless someone broke in and took nothing but the bread, or one of us ate it and forgot (not likely, I'm guessing--we were considerably younger at the time), it had to be Luke, but he left no evidence. Never happened again.
> 
> Blue, on the other hand, is an unreformable sneak thief. Last week I left a tube of a topical medicine in its box on the counter in the bathroom. I've done it many times before with no problem. Jazz brought the undamaged (thank god) tube to Rich, but the box had vanished and was never seen again. I've always been careful about keeping pill bottles well secured, but for some reason, I didn't think this would tempt him, didn't consider how obsessed he is with paper of any kind.


I'm surprised he wasn't sick lol a whole loaf! My cats are obsessed with bread. Every time we leave a piece sitting in the toaster unattended they nibble the exposed crust off, cheeky buggers.

Wow yeah thank god he didn't eat any! Very lucky indeed. 

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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Archie is too small to truly countersurf, but he is just tall enough to put his paws on the edge of the table so he can get a good sniff at whatever's on it. I stop him when I can, but our table is still littered with claw marks. 

His real problem is he has to test each new person who comes over to the house to see if they'll give him some of what they're eating. This sometimes includes tactics like jumping all the way up to where their hands are. He doesn't do it to familiar people because he knows they won't give him anything (and he doesn't do it on leash because I can stop him), but each new house guest becomes a possibility for free treats... :alberteinstein:


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

My pointer, years ago, got loose one time and must have been in someone's trash. She came home and vomited a whole chicken carcass ! She was really really bad about getting to food in the house.


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## Myleen (Apr 30, 2016)

MiniPoo said:


> Of course, you want to use positive reinforcement and distraction to keep your puppy from biting you, but I think it is VERY important that he not be allowed to bite you, especially repeatedly. In case you ever want to take him to a groomer, you need to make sure he does not think he can get away with biting you during baths and drying him.
> 
> I would get him a soft fitting muzzle and if food and distractions do not work, put the muzzle on him while you are working on his feet and legs. Keep trying to take it off and use positive means, but a groomer would muzzle your dog if he tried to bite them.
> 
> ...


Wondering if I should use a "soft fitting muzzle" (have on hand) for Toby when I try to groom with a clippers ? (haven't done yet, any day now) ... he too has been biting more the past couple of days. Yesterday my thoughts were, "where did my sweet Toby go?"....


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would work on getting him used to the process, leaving the muzzle for clipping as a last resort (although as others have said muzzle training is a useful thing in its own right). You want him to cooperate with you, not fight you, and that is best done by having lots of very short, unstressed sessions. Don't attempt a full groom straight off - work on touching with clippers off, with clippers on, one swipe, etc, etc with lots of treats before you expect him to cope with a longer session, and even then you may need to compromise. Poppy really hates the feel of clippers on her feet - we have agreed on a few quick swipes and then the rest done with scissors - she stands like a statue for me to do everything else, so I feel it is only fair to accept her feelings about toes!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

fjm is right it is better to teach/help the dog to willingly accept grooming. They don't have to love it, but your life will be much easier if they cooperate than to have to rely on a muzzle. After all, you do have to trim their faces too. And whether you do your own grooming or send your dog out to be groomed it has to be something they deal with calmly. I have freeze dried chicken liver on the bookshelf where I keep my grooming tools. During grooming is the only time they get this (and they love it), so I make sure I am paying well for cooperation and if one of them decides not to eat it I know they are telling me they've had it even if I've only done one foot's worth of nails and I take them off the table.

Teaching a dog to accept a muzzle does have its uses, but I don't think routine grooming should require one.


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Yes I agree with the above, definitely worth easing them into it. I'm currently doing this with Bowie and as long as he has something extra special to eat (usually a tbsp of peanut butter) he will let me clip his sanitary area without a fuss.

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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Update: Bowie had his first appointment with the new groomers yesterday and it went much better than expected. These new girls are fantastic, they let him have a 2 hour break inbetween getting bathed+dried and being clipped. It's like a daycare cross salon so he got to play with the other dogs in the playroom. Non friendly dogs are crated of course and put in the "nap room". Apparently he did really well, got a bit snappy and whiney but never bit anyone, got a little bit nervous being dried but only made a big fuss over having his face clipped so they didn't give him the full poodle face as to reduce stress. Very impressed. He looks like a typical doodle now lol but I'd much rather that than have him hate being groomed! Definitely going to keep going back there. Probably every 4 weeks to start just until he gets used to it. Much cheaper than anticipated so may aswell. 

Will post pics soon. Not working right now for some reason. 

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## Myleen (Apr 30, 2016)

fjm said:


> I would work on getting him used to the process, leaving the muzzle for clipping as a last resort (although as others have said muzzle training is a useful thing in its own right). You want him to cooperate with you, not fight you, and that is best done by having lots of very short, unstressed sessions. Don't attempt a full groom straight off - work on touching with clippers off, with clippers on, one swipe, etc, etc with lots of treats before you expect him to cope with a longer session, and even then you may need to compromise. Poppy really hates the feel of clippers on her feet - we have agreed on a few quick swipes and then the rest done with scissors - she stands like a statue for me to do everything else, so I feel it is only fair to accept her feelings about toes!


Excellent advice!  Thank you kindly!


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## Myleen (Apr 30, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> fjm is right it is better to teach/help the dog to willingly accept grooming. They don't have to love it, but your life will be much easier if they cooperate than to have to rely on a muzzle. After all, you do have to trim their faces too. And whether you do your own grooming or send your dog out to be groomed it has to be something they deal with calmly. I have freeze dried chicken liver on the bookshelf where I keep my grooming tools. During grooming is the only time they get this (and they love it), so I make sure I am paying well for cooperation and if one of them decides not to eat it I know they are telling me they've had it even if I've only done one foot's worth of nails and I take them off the table.
> 
> Teaching a dog to accept a muzzle does have its uses, but I don't think routine grooming should require one.


Oh my...that will be a hard one...trim the face. :scared: ... breath in, breath out... one step at a time. (all grooming items/clippers ordered should be here any day now)  Thank you!!


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## Myleen (Apr 30, 2016)

illiyh said:


> Yes I agree with the above, definitely worth easing them into it. I'm currently doing this with Bowie and as long as he has something extra special to eat (usually a tbsp of peanut butter) he will let me clip his sanitary area without a fuss.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


Toby does not seem to be interested in peanut butter. I will have to find and try the freeze dried chicken. Plan of action... easing him into it. Let us know how it goes with Bowie!!   Thanks!!


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## DukeCharlie (Jun 8, 2016)

Zhuhaibill said:


> Gee sorry to hear that. Emma enjoys her baths but bites and snaps too while we are trying to dry her. I usually give her a chewie bar to distract her and that works fine. Not sure if this will work for Bowie.


Thanks for the idea! My daughter, Abby, wants to bathe Duke soon herself, and I wouldn't allow her until Duke stops biting be when I bathe him. If this technique works, maybe I can let Abby do it already (with my supervision of course).


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