# Concern w/Inbreeding (and Breeder Disclosure)



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I am not knowledgeable about this, but I wanted to welcome you and thank you for sharing your experience so others can learn. Banjo is adorable!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Many genetic problems won't show up until the dogs is much older. Our miniature poodle had PRA but didn't show any signs till she was 6 years old. This was back before there was genetic health testing for the disease. 

My feeling is, enjoy your puppy, but please don't breed him. If your family wants a nice poodle, educate them about responsible breeding.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

People selling moyen puppies are not usually using that term appropriately. Moyen or klein (medium sized) poodles come from Europe and are not the result of a standard/miniature breeding. Breeders who breed a standard to a mini should say "moyen sized" poodles if they know what they are doing.

I have considered a puppy from a breeder who used one standard female to increase the size of her miniatures. Then she retired the standard and now just breeds miniatures or oversized miniatures (20-30 lbs) which she also refers to as moyen (It's a marketing thing.)

Dogs should not be bred until they are at least 2 years of age so that their hips can be tested. Genetic testing for things like PRA is also very important.

I too hope that you will not breed your dog, but if you must, I hope you will continue to educate yourself to do it as well as possible and that you wait until Banjo is at least 2 years of age.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree with not breeding your dog. He is a fine pet, but he was not the result of careful selection and serious health testing. He was not from a serious breeder doing conformation or from working lines. There are already tons of not so worthy poodles around, so what our breed needs is the best of careful breeding, by fully educated breeders dedicated to improving this wonderful dog.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Welcome to the forum, and congrats on your new puppy. I'm sorry your breeder hide some truths from you and hope Banjo won't suffer any ill effects from this careless breeder and her lack of ethics. It is my opinion that breeding your dog is completely out of the question, I can't imagine knowing what you have now discovered, you would want to compound the injustice to a future litter. I hope you do report what you know and she runs out of puppy buyers, maybe then she will acquire conscious.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Georgeanna said:


> I recently learned that our moyen poodle is the result of inbreeding (daughter to father), and that he's actually 3/4 miniature.


Line breeding... common to many lines... no big deal.




Georgeanna said:


> Not rigorous, I know, and I'm kicking myself now!


No reason to... I rarely do things perfectly. 



Georgeanna said:


> I understand it we may have issues much later in life, e.g. a diminished life expectancy


I don't see why you would think that. I wouldn't.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope you enjoy Banjo as a companion Poodle. He is adorable, but given your breeder's practices which sound questionable to me, I don't think he should be bred. Let Banjo be a little Poodle ambassador to your friends and family, and if they want a Poodle too, there are plenty of dedicated, experienced and ethical breeders that PF can help you find.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Line breeding no big deal? Is that true?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Mfmst said:


> Line breeding no big deal? Is that true?


Ha! You doubt my word??? En garde then! :fencing:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> Line breeding no big deal? Is that true?



Yes it is true that line breeding in the hands of an extremely knowledgeable breeder who is darn certain because of their knowledge, not just because they crossed their fingers and toes, that they are strengthening good genes, not bad ones, can be a good thing, however he is misusing the term - line breeding does not include breeding parent to child, or siblings.
My girls are line bred - you will see 1-2 special dogs showing up in their pedigrees several times, but not that close - for example, "Special Dog" might be the the grandfather on one side, and the great grandfather on the other side, and special dog number two might be the Sire, and a half uncle on the mother's side. Then too, there will probably be an outcross or two in the pedigree as well.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Well I am admittedly not an expert on breeding, but breeding a father or grandfather doesn't sit well with me. My philosophy is, if it's against the law for humans (incest) then why should it be an acceptable practice with animals. Just my opinion.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Enjoy your little Banjo. Research dog breeding. Seek out the advice of experts. I think you will end up realizing that breeding your pup is not a good idea.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Line breeding used to be accepted and normal practice, but better understanding of its potential genetic impact (especially upon the immune system) is changing perceptions. The UK Kennel Club now bans close line breeding. Another reason for avoiding breeding Banjo is that he is carrying genes for a wide range of sizes - and could father pups that are anything from a small miniature to a large standard. Disconcerting for both the pups' mother and potential puppy owners. I would not worry too much about Banjo himself though - for decades this sort of line breeding was normal practice, and most dogs lived long and happy lives.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

While many people do not use line breeding anymore, there are some good breeders who can use it to good effect. Javelin's litter is a line bred litter with Mikimoto showing up in several places. He is happy, healthy, well structured and has been a mostly very easy puppy because of his sound temperament.

This breeder from whom you got Banjo (who is very cute) is not a person who is doing much thinking at all about what he/she is doing. Line breeding does not mean father/daughter or other similar breedings.

My bottom line advice to you is not to breed Banjo, but instead just enjoy him for who he is, your lovely fun puppy.

Down the road if you really want to get involved in breeding get a mentor. Co own a boy and show him to demonstrate that he is a quality dog worthy of sending his genes into the future and then work with the mentor to find a good dame for a litter of puppies out of which you can get a foundation bitch.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

My opinion is, a breeder who is constantly breeding like this is not doing it to improve anything. It seems it is a matter of convenience and cost. Doing a tight line breeding once, then outcrossing, is fine if you are looking at bettering something.


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## Georgeanna (Feb 29, 2016)

Thanks to everyone who commented! Really appreciate your input.

Does anyone have an opinion of what it might be reasonable to ask of the breeder? More importantly than getting any money back, I would like to have her see some consequence or down-side to this practice. 

Do you think it'd be reasonable to ask her for a 50% refund, for example? Or to post on her Facebook group to inform others? (I'm sure she'd remove me and take it down... and I almost hate to tell people who are happy with their pets.)

My biggest beef with her is that we wouldn't have dreamed of getting a dog without health testing if we'd know the gene pool was so shallow. I doubt we would have gone ahead with her in general if she'd been transparent about the inbreeding, but we certainly NEVER would have without health testing on the sire, who makes up 3/4 of Banjo's genetic profile. 

I think it's a fair argument that the inbreeding greatly diminishes the value of her puppies, no matter how great we think our little dude is.

Here's another few pics for your time... Banjo with our cat Bevers, and his first patio meal (he does SO well out and about, I was hoping to train him as a therapy dog and am really encouraged... I trained my black lab Chrissy to be a therapy dog when I was in High School and it was so rewarding).

I hope cats are allowed in small doses!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think this is a matter of buyer beware unfortunately. It is up to buyers to do their due diligence and verify health testing on parents and research pedigrees before ever agreeing to putting a deposit on a pup. I would not humiliate her on her page, but would message her privately about how disgusted you are with her practices and let her know you feel like you were misled and would walk away from all of this feeling much better if she would refund some of your costs. I honestly doubt that will happen, because it was your obligation to verify the truth. And disclosing her name here is not a bad idea if everything is factual, so people are not referring buyers to her.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think this is a matter of buyer beware unfortunately. It is up to buyers to do their due diligence and verify health testing on parents and research pedigrees before ever agreeing to putting a deposit on a pup. I would not humiliate her on her page, but would message her privately about how disgusted you are with her practices and let her know you feel like you were misled and would walk away from all of this feeling much better if she would refund some of your costs. I honestly doubt that will happen, because it was your obligation to verify the truth. And disclosing her name here is not a bad idea if everything is factual, so people are not referring buyers to her.


I'll second that!

And.....by the way, Banjo is quite adorable.

VQ


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

And I'll 3rd that! & also that Banjo is absolutely precious!

Unfortunately, when buying a purebred puppy, people are not too knowledgeable on what needs to be researched...like when sellers say "healthy and vet checked" or just because the dog has 'papers' it is supposed to be a mark of quality...........many buyers have no idea of the testing that should have been done to the Dam and Sire to stack the deck in their favor of getting what they 'think' they paid for!
I knew what I was doing when I got Molly, and the risk I was taking because of her unknown background, and so far I've been lucky............just lucky.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

"Moyen"

"Royal"

"Teacup"

"Rare"

and, though some won't like this one...

"Chocolate"

There are others, but you'll see a definite theme here. And not a good one. "Chocolate" can maybe be forgiven if your breeder clearly demonstrates an acknowledgment that labs are "chocolate" and poodles are BROWN. (I've referred to Lombardi as "golden" and "blonde" but clearly express he is apricot.)

Advertising using these terms should alert you that you are dealing with a SALESPERSON and likely not a very knowledgeable or ethical breeder.

Banjo will hopefully be a wonderful companion. And ideally you can educate others who might be about to go down the Moyen path...


Best Wishes,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

NOLA Standards said:


> "Moyen"
> 
> "Royal"
> 
> ...


I have a Pom who's gonna end up undersized and as a groomer who brings him to work, he's a great way to educate people on the teacup/toy/mini thing (where there is no variation of toy or mini in the breed). "Is he a mini Pom?" "No, there is no such thing as a mini pom, he's just undersized."


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