# Red x Blue Phantom cross



## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

*Correction*

The parents of the Blue Phantom were black and silver, not black and white. I misread.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

You may have better luck with responses posting this on the regular Poodle Talk forum, and I am ABSOLUTELY no color expert, but I'll tell you what I "think" I know  

I would think that, since both the sire and the dam are the lighter versions of their respective color family, the probability of solid black dogs would be slim. I doubt it's impossible, but don't think it would be likely. 

I don't think phantom genetics are fully understood, but I would think there'd be a chance you would get some phantom puppies. 

If I had to guess on your color possibilities, I'd say probably blues, apricots and creams, with the possibility of a phantom appearing. _Maybe_ a silver but I doubt it. 

This link is fairly scientific but gives good information. Doesn't address phantoms though. 
Color Genes in the Poodle


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

So the puppies were born and they were all black! At least, it is suspected they may be all black -- some could be potentially blue. 

Alas I wasn't seeking black to so I am back to the drawing board in looking for a puppy.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

fel said:


> So the puppies were born and they were all black! At least, it is suspected they may be all black -- some could be potentially blue.
> 
> Alas I wasn't seeking black to so I am back to the drawing board in looking for a puppy.


Wow! What a surprise. I wouldn't doubt that some of them would end up blue. It can be very difficult to determine at birth, and sometimes even through the first several months of life, whether a puppy will turn blue or stay black. But, good luck in your search!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I am assuming (hate that word, but) that the phantom pattern is actually the tan pattern, which is recessive. (My Kelpies have the tan pattern - marked like Dobes, so will never produce a solid). I'm a little baffled on the black vs blue in poodles since with my Kelpies and *******, we can tell at birth what color they are by the color of the nose. It's black for a black dog and a greyish color (sometimes with a warm hint of brown) for blue pups. Nobody fades or clears to blue - they start out that way. 

I was hoping for a rainbow litter from the OP's description so I could beg for pictures. lol

Best wishes in your search. 
If you're interested, I love this link:
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Your blues you are used to are caused by the dilution gene which is extremely rare in purebred poodles. Instead we use the word "blue" for a form of fading black.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

spindledreams said:


> Your blues you are used to are caused by the dilution gene which is extremely rare in purebred poodles. Instead we use the word "blue" for a form of fading black.


Thank you!!!!

whew, I was starting to doubt my sanity. Neat, fading black. Hmmm, I'd better go apologise to my breeder. I 'argued' with her regarding blue/black and poodle blue/black. She very patiently tried to explain stuff while quietly rolling her eyes. lol I love her, she's soooooooo patient with me.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

The colors are black (no fading) blue(some to lots of fading by age 2) Silver (lots of facial fading by age 6 WEEKS) In browns the order is brown, cafe' au lait, silver beige. Then there can be sable, brindle, phantom or parti versions of each of those colors and you can have sable phantoms of each of those colors and yep it is enough to drive a person crazy. AND that is just the black based colors. That doesn't include the red,apricot, cream, white spectrum.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

spindledreams, may I take your genetics class? Pleeeeeeease? 

Although I have no intention of breeding poodles (yet) I would LOVE to expand my little bit of knowledge on color genetics. It is such a fascinating field of study. 

('nuther dumb question: going off your username - do you have a hobby with wool or spinning or something along those lines?)


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Grin Satin Angora rabbits and I am spindler ie spin when on the go and wheel spin at home. blush we will not mention how many spindles I have but it is still under 100, at least I think it is... And um wheels well I have 5 modern wheels, a great wheel, and 4 other antiques including a double flyer I want to get repaired/restored so it works. Yes I tend to be a bit of a collector. 

Wry grin I first learned cat color genetics in Jr High and have tried to get a handle on every other species I became involved with since then. My strongest understanding is actually the rabbits which I have bred. So far I am just spouting off dog stuff I have read on various sites. There is still a lot of it that doesn't make sense to me but I am learning.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Neat!

I have one spindle. I'm not very good at it, but I will keep practicing. I dream of having a working whell in my living room. I am researching sheep breeds now for hardiness, heat tolerance, docility and wool. 

I've already named the first two lambs that I plan to get - Briggs and Stratton and they can mow for me. LOL

I dare you to post pictures of your spinning wheels and spindles.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

if along the coast check out in the US I would suggest checking out Gulf Coast Native (GCN) or Gulf Coast Native Improved (GCNI). GCN is a landrace from that area and are fairly docile from what I have heard and the wool while it varies is skin soft on most and a decent length to spin. I actually love the fiber I have gotten from Running Moon Farms in LA.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

I think it would be unlikely there would be a true black in that litter, when any silver is added into a pedigree it increases the chances of getting blue. Yes, pups are born black, but an experienced breeder can tell at birth what most pups will be, and guessing that now she won't know until faces are shaved, hopefully around four weeks. Any shading around the nose is a telltale sign the dog will clear to blue. These days with all the color combinations within a pedigree, particular with any patterned colored dogs (parti, phantom, brindle) pedigree it is near impossible to get a true black, and unless the dam is a true dark red she also carries a fading gene. That said, no shame in blue it can be very beautiful!!


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