# Pendragon Poodles, Ontario,Canada



## Dogsinstyle

Holy cannoli is right. I have a time with just one litter in 2 years. I can't imagine they get much attention.
Carole


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## Olie

Oh boy:doh:


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## Purley

I don't know anything about breeding Poodles, but I wouldn't have thought that different colours would attract different prices. That seems to be normal with Goldendoodles. 

They seem to charge according to the shade of red that the puppies are now. So what happens if you pay more for a red puppy and when it gets older it turns out to be apricot. Do you get a refund?

I suppose people might say I was being nasty if I said the word "puppy farm" came to mind. Did you notice of the older pups, the ones in June and again in December have the same dam. So she had two litters in six months. That is Honey. And Tallulah had a litter in May and again in December.


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## Winnow

Well there is one thing that breaks my heart.

The dam for one of the litters is 9 years old 

I see no listing of health tests or any comments that they do health tests, they mock show dogs to make there home dogs look better.

And they say that they are no offering youngsters for sail for people who don't have the time to raise a puppy. 
Is this just something they say to make the dogs that did not get sold look more attractive ? I would never want to sell a person a dog that does not have time for a pup. Does that not just mean that they don't have time for a dog ?

I can not Imagen having 3 litters with 21 pups then add the 6 youngsters who are for sale and the dogs they have now and according to there homepage they are more then 10.

I hope they have staff to help them with all these dogs.



> We provide incredible family/companion dogs and our slogan is we believe in "Best in Home...NOT Best in Show."


Well I could go on an on...

Forgot one thing I would never want to buy a pup that has been neuterd/spayed before 8 weeks :S


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## Keithsomething

Purely I don't think its nasty...well some might...

but it does raise the question at what point do breeders like this cross the line and become puppy mills...are they able to say they aren't a puppy mill because they keep all the dogs in their home?
its interesting to say the least


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## Olie

Best in home - not in show. And still charge those random high prices for dogs appearing to have no health testing done.


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## Purley

The reason for people doing the pediatric spay and neuter is because of unscrupulous buyers getting a dog on a non-breeding contract and then breeding it anyway sometimes to a another breed and sometimes just because they are not interested in registering the puppies. Reputable breeders do not want their puppies going to those homes.


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## Lotusland spoos

They get a lot of publicity. CTV in Canada just aired an episode on them yesterday on a program called 'Breeder of the Pack' or something like that. They called the episode 'poodlemania'.


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## Locket

Seriously, what in the he** is wrong with Canadian TV producers knowing NOTHING about dogs???? 
First, they air asshat Brad Pattison's piece of junk show, and then they promote breeders like this!!! 
BRING BACK STANLEY COREN!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Locket said:


> Seriously, what in the he** is wrong with Canadian TV producers knowing NOTHING about dogs????
> First, they air asshat Brad Pattison's piece of junk show, and then they promote breeders like this!!!
> BRING BACK STANLEY COREN!!!


I sent Animal Planet a letter when the show was first airing telling them they needed to reconsider or I as well as other breeders would boycott their channel. These people get more free ink and publicity than any other breeder I have ever seen. I told the execs at the station that they needed to find soomeone in the business who has been around a long time and health tests, and their reply was that someone at the station purchased a puppy from Pendragon and were THRILLED with the annual Poodle party they throw. Nobody seems to understand that when they are paying at least an additional $1,000 for their pup over what other breeders are charging, they are in essence paying to attend the party, so big whoop!! Animal Planet was not remotely interested in what I was saying, and yesterday's airing of the show is about the 5th time it has aired, so 5 times the publicity. 

When I saw it the third time it was aired on CTV, I was terrified for those little pups, born on the leather sofa, camera crew walking all over the house with their shoes on, the people from the party all over the place with their shoes on. No de-contamination is effect at all. So, they use a human incubator, which apparently makes them very special, and let people with their germy shoes all over where the pups are. YIKES!! I just don't get it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I see Heather has joined the forum. It would be nice to get her take on things and maybe hear from her why they have the number of litters they have or why the different prices for different colours of pups?


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## Lotusland spoos

The Pendragon website has changed since I last looked at it a few hours ago. Date of birth and names of dams have been removed. 

I have to admit that I looked closely at this breeder and Paris Poodles 3 years ago when I was looking for a new puppy. What appealed to me then was the idea of a dog that looked sporty and not dainty. Their websites are directed to people who liked the hypo-allergenic properties of poodles but not the 'show dog - frou frou' look. Paris advertises that their dogs are 'real dogs' with big bone structure. I searched and searched the internet to find out more about the breed and read up on what I was suppose to look for in breeders ,etc. As I went through other breeder's websites and looked at their poodles, I began to fall in love with how beautiful the poodles look with all the different groom cuts available in addition to their wonderful traits. I also could not figure out why Paris and Pendragon were charging so much more than other breeders who had beautiful champions and also did all the testing. Anyways, I did not buy from them. 

Also, I now LOVE all the beautiful show coats! I just gave Sam the Miami cut (since she is such a clown) and I think she looks beautiful but my kids are aghast and embarassed for her. Sam, despite being silly, just has everyone looking at her (and I think admiring her), as she prances by at the park, beach or trail. I don't have the guts to put Charlie in the same cut because my family will kill me if I do. They did not want a poodle initially because of preconceived prejudices. They now love poodles but cannot tolerate any cut too 'frilly'. Oh well, I just have to go slow and train them to love all the different cuts I am going to try on my poodles!


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## cbrand

Huh.... their Executive Puppy program is interesting, but I'm a bit skeptical. Given the number of dogs and litters they have, I wonder how much training they are actually able to put on these dogs. This seems like more of a spin to try to move older puppies that did not previously sell. 

Of course I could be wrong. It would be interesting to see a video of these juvenile dogs working to see how far they have come in their training.


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## neVar

Ok i think yes- when a breeder who has a pup or two who hang around a bit longer- you gotta spin it. There are people who can't be home every 3 hours to let a 8 week old pup out but who are good for a slightly older dog. 

but yeah ummm it's a lot of puppies. and a lot of not tested.


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## Purley

Lotusland spoos said:


> The Pendragon website has changed since I last looked at it a few hours ago. Date of birth and names of dams have been removed.


That is interesting - that it happened so soon after I pointed it out on here and someone else pointed out that one of the dams was nine years old - suggests that they are reading this forum does it not? 

That is a shame because it means that prospective purchasers will be ignorant of those facts. But then again there are people who go into a pet store and buy an unregistrable pug or dachshund puppy for $1,350. Unfortunately there are lots of people who buy puppies just because they are cute! That is the only criteria.

Yes Lotusland -- when I first started looking, I wanted a Standard and Paris was the first website a researched. I actually emailed them but never got a response. Then as I became more educated I went back and realized the same as you, that there was no health testing whatsoever - at least if there is its not mentioned on their web site and you would think if they did it, it would be mentioned.

I am wondering, when you see on a breeder's website that they do health testing, do any of you ask for actual written proof? I think you would have to be careful how you asked, because it seems a bit like you don't trust them.


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## Winnow

Purley said:


> That is interesting - that it happened so soon after I pointed it out on here and someone else pointed out that one of the dams was nine years old - suggests that they are reading this forum does it not?
> 
> That is a shame because it means that prospective purchasers will be ignorant of those facts. But then again there are people who go into a pet store and buy an unregistrable pug or dachshund puppy for $1,350. Unfortunately there are lots of people who buy puppies just because they are cute! That is the only criteria.
> 
> Yes Lotusland -- when I first started looking, I wanted a Standard and Paris was the first website a researched. I actually emailed them but never got a response. Then as I became more educated I went back and realized the same as you, that there was no health testing whatsoever - at least if there is its not mentioned on their web site and you would think if they did it, it would be mentioned.
> 
> I am wondering, when you see on a breeder's website that they do health testing, do any of you ask for actual written proof? I think you would have to be careful how you asked, because it seems a bit like you don't trust them.


The ad for the litter were the dam is 9 years old is still in but they taken out her birthday from her page. But they do say that her first litter was born in March/03 so she had to be two at the time or if they make the females whelp very young :S
so either way its bad.

they have also removed info from bios of about 10 dogs. 

So trust worthy :doh:

I would love to have any of my puppy buyers ask for the papers on my dogs health test for proof. But I scan them in and you can see them on my homepage.


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## cbrand

This is the third time that a breeder has changed her web site because this board had questions about breeding practices. (Remember the one that was breeding the dysplastic stud dog?)

It would be funny if it weren't so sad. In an attempt to educate the puppy buying public we are in some ways making it easier for breeders to pull the wool over a buyer's eyes.

The lesson here for any buyer that may be lurking:

1. Ask to see health testing... understand results.
2. Ask the age of the breeding parents... verify via pedigree.
3. Ask about number of litters on the ground at any given time.


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## cbrand

God I love the Internet! It turns out that there is video of one of the Penndragon Executive Puppies:


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## Winnow

cbrand said:


> God I love the Internet! It turns out that there is video of one of the Penndragon Executive Puppies[/url]


I would never show this video if I was trying to sell this pup :S

It looks really scared. He has his tail down the whole time.


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## bigpoodleperson

Hmmm. I dont have much to comment other then what has already been said. In that puppy video; i would like to see a more confidient puppy personally. Obviously he hasnt been out much before these videos, so i wonder how much socialization he has really had (because by the time someone gets him his main socialization windows will be gone).


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> God I love the Internet! It turns out that there is video of one of the Penndragon Executive Puppies:
> 
> YouTube - Pendragon pups Executive puppy video 09 1


Erm... I hope that Executive puppy had only just begun its training, as it has a long way to go. Its tail being held down like that and the way it keeps stopping dead suggests it is not overly happy or familiar with these situations.


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## Cdnjennga

bigpoodleperson said:


> Hmmm. I dont have much to comment other then what has already been said. In that puppy video; i would like to see a more confidient puppy personally. Obviously he hasnt been out much before these videos, so i wonder how much socialization he has really had (because by the time someone gets him his main socialization windows will be gone).


Haha, we're in agreement obviously.


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## jak

cbrand said:


> God I love the Internet! It turns out that there is video of one of the *Penndragon *Executive Puppies:
> 
> YouTube - Pendragon pups Executive puppy video 09 1


Right.... 

oh.. and cbrand... be careful how you spell Pendragon!!!


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## neVar

ack- obviously this is pups first time out of the yard- or first time in a long time. He doesn't heel- he's at the end of the leash and looks quite scared  poor guy


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## Olie

I watched this a few times and seen the changes happening also one litter was pulled off. Also maybe it was just me but the welcome video with all the pregnant or just welped girls......

And the executive poodle - I watched and fast forwarded.......and that dog was fine on the leash but his tail hung down the entire time, he did not want to get into the SUV - I am still wondering what was the point of this?


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## Jessie's Mom

ok, first what is an executive puppy ????? 
i always speak from the non-experienced, getting-to-know, wanting-to-learn, basic consumer, poodle lover / owner's perspective. i've learned a whole lot since having jessie, and i'm still learning, wanting to absorb like a sponge from anyone worth learning from. with the little i know, i definitely know not to buy from anyone who spits puppies out or who has to toot their own horn too much. so who is buying these pups? and what is it about their website or their advertising (?) that grabs these people who spend more than they have to? most people shop around when they are about to invest in something that hey have to make a committment to. why is a puppy any different ?????


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## plumcrazy

I watched the video (but had my sound off, so I don't know if there was any narrative or explanation of any of the goings on) and I agree with most of the comments. The puppy seemed very unconfident. The other thing that I saw that I didn't agree with was lifting the puppy into the vehicle. Lucy wasn't thrilled with car rides at first (and if the car was running or started up while she was still outside of the vehicle, her unconfidence was more noticeable)

From the first time she ever rode in the car with us (at the airport in Winnipeg) I made sure it was HER idea to get in. Sometimes it took an extra minute or three, but I wanted her to put her own front feet onto the floorboards of her own volition, rather than me forcing her into the car. When she was a small puppy, she wasn't able to hoist herself all the way in, but if she put her front feet in, I'd boost her backend and she'd scramble in by herself. We never forced by picking her up and shoving her in (same goes with crate training - if you make it the pup's idea, you'll have a lot less trouble in the long run!!)

Anyway, now Lucy LOVES to go for car rides (and she was THEE most excellent passenger on our cross country trip which was 48 nonconsecutive hours in the car, at least!) I would be concerned that by forcefully compelling a puppy to do something they perceive as threatening or scary, you could be setting them up for a lifetime of mistrust... IMO...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Purley said:


> That is interesting - that it happened so soon after I pointed it out on here and someone else pointed out that one of the dams was nine years old - suggests that they are reading this forum does it not?
> 
> That is a shame because it means that prospective purchasers will be ignorant of those facts. But then again there are people who go into a pet store and buy an unregistrable pug or dachshund puppy for $1,350. Unfortunately there are lots of people who buy puppies just because they are cute! That is the only criteria.
> 
> Yes Lotusland -- when I first started looking, I wanted a Standard and Paris was the first website a researched. I actually emailed them but never got a response. Then as I became more educated I went back and realized the same as you, that there was no health testing whatsoever - at least if there is its not mentioned on their web site and you would think if they did it, it would be mentioned.
> 
> I am wondering, when you see on a breeder's website that they do health testing, do any of you ask for actual written proof? I think you would have to be careful how you asked, because it seems a bit like you don't trust them.


Absolutely, you have a right to verify what a breeder is saying ia truth. I have not posted my results on my web site, but I say results are available upon request. I am in no way offended if someone wants a copy of them. How else would people know what I am telling them is true? If a breeder balks or is upset because you ask, they are not someone oyu want to deal with anyway!


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## Dave

*Pendragons Rock! Big Time!*

Some people feel so inferior that it is incumbent upon them to
criticize others in an attempt to bring them down to their level.
Anyone who resorts to this tactic is a very small person indeed. In
this case, they are not only small, but have absolutely no idea what
they are talking about. This is merely a flagrant, and I might say vain,
attempt to promote their own product over the Pendragons'.

Those of us who know Heather and Greg have a very healthy respect for
the way they raise their poodles, the love they have for them, and the
absolute integrity of their business practices. The amount of joy the
Pendragons and their dogs have brought into this world and into our
homes is inestimable. Those of us who are fortunate enough to live with a
Pendragon poodle are some of the luckiest people in the world and we
would not exchange our dogs for love or money. The Pendragon community is fiercely loyal to their dogs and their breeder and for good reason...they are quite simply the best. Saying otherwise does not make it so.

Heather & Greg, keep doing what you are doing. You do it better than
all the rest. Anybody who really counts has no problem seeing through
the jealous venom spewed out by these persons. If they had just a small portion of the integrity that their dogs possess, they would think twice about these postings.


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## Lotusland spoos

Dave, what is being commented here are facts as gleamed from their website. They state on their website that they 'offer a very limited number of puppies each year.' That is simply not true if you look at how many litters they produce. We are simply pointing that out that they also charge is a lot more than the majority of breeders. 

They also diss 'show dogs' when really, a majority of show dogs are bred to improve the breed. Health testing, breeding practices, etc - I have learned so much from these forums. From what to look for in both the breeders and dogs. Use the forum to learn and voice concerns. We are not spewing out jealous venom - we love our poodles and want them to be bred in the best possible conditions. I now know that when the time comes to add to my poodle addiction, that I need to research the breeder, ensure health testing is done, see if their dogs have titles, not only for show but obedience, agility, etc. Stop being so defensive - Why were changes made to the Pendragon website when concerns were brought up. When you are in a business - and Pendragon Poodles is a business - you need to be able to back up your business practices. As a Pendragon poodle owner, maybe you can let us know - was health testing done? What were the tests? Do they enter their dogs in agility or obedience? How about Canine Good Neighbour? If you are going to defend the "absolute integrity of their business practices", you need to give us facts. Maybe you too can learn what you should be looking for when getting your next poodle.


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## bigpoodleperson

> Some people feel so inferior that it is incumbent upon them to
> criticize others in an attempt to bring them down to their level.
> Anyone who resorts to this tactic is a very small person indeed. In
> this case, they are not only small, but have absolutely no idea what
> they are talking about. This is merely a flagrant, and I might say vain,
> attempt to promote their own product over the Pendragons'.
> 
> Those of us who know Heather and Greg have a very healthy respect for
> the way they raise their poodles, the love they have for them, and the
> absolute integrity of their business practices. The amount of joy the
> Pendragons and their dogs have brought into this world and into our
> homes is inestimable. Those of us who are fortunate enough to live with a
> Pendragon poodle are some of the luckiest people in the world and we
> would not exchange our dogs for love or money. The Pendragon community is fiercely loyal to their dogs and their breeder and for good reason...they are quite simply the best. Saying otherwise does not make it so.
> 
> Heather & Greg, keep doing what you are doing. You do it better than
> all the rest. Anybody who really counts has no problem seeing through
> the jealous venom spewed out by these persons. If they had just a small portion of the integrity that their dogs possess, they would think twice about these postings.


:rolffleyes: Ok Dave, so what exactly makes them "the best"? If you are going to say bashing and immature things like that to us then you need to be able to back it up. No doubt that they love their dogs, but in my book they are a glorified BYB. And i would hope that everyone loves their dog no matter which "breeder" they got them from. Also, almost everyone who replied on this thread is not a breeder, so we are not trying to "promote our own product".


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## Keithsomething

Dave said:


> Saying otherwise does not make it so.


truer words were never spoken 
^_^

look inward not outward with anger <3


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## cbrand

So Dave....

When you look at that video of the Pendragon Executive puppy, do you think you are seeing the best of the poodle world?


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## Purley

Indeed, I do not own a poodle yet. I have never bred any puppies. I have no vested interest in my comments. As someone said, I looked on the website and it was my opinion that "good" breeders do not breed a bitch in June and again six months later.


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## neVar

you can raise dogs with love nd good care- but that doesn't make you 'good' or 'top' breeder. 

Good and best breeders do that plus increase the quality of dog. breed tested dogs, don't over breed, and have each generation ideally one step better quality and health wise then what they come from


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dave….I posted this thread and stated clearly I did not want to see the Pendragons beaten up for what I posted. But when a breeder posts things on their web site, those things could be brought to question.

I am so happy for you that you love your Pendragon dog, and that you have a wonderful relationship with the Pendragons. You must understand that this forum is a place to educate. There is certain criteria that a lot of the members here like to see in a breeder, The biggie is health testing. Verfiable health testing. Hips, eyes, vWd, NE, S/A…none of us knows if the Pendragons indeed do any, because there is not one mention of health testing on their web site. One would have to presume that because it is not mentioned, that must mean there isn’t any done. I also can’t say I was able to find any of the names on the Pendragon site on the Poodle Health Registry. So, again, this would make me presume that there isn’t any. Do you know if they health test their breeding dogs?

Another biggie is that a breeder be small volume. Seeing that they whelped a litter on June 1st, June 2nd and again on June 13th surely doesn’t give the impression that they are small volume. When we say small volume here, we mean a breeder who breeds one or two litters a year. Are these three litters the only three litters the Pendragons whelped in the last twelve months. I don’t think so because someone here found that at least two of their bitches were bred back to back heats, so that would mean at least two other litters about six months ago, which would mean at LEAST five litters this year.

Oh, that would be another biggie. No back to back breedings. A breeder who is well thought of by most of the members here would allow their bitch to heal and have an opportunity to be herself again before breeding her again. A year in between litters or one skipped heat cycle is usually a good rule of thumb. And breeding a nine year old female is generally not something that would be looked upon too kindly.

There has been a lot of discussion about the early spay and neuter program used by Pendragon as well in other threads on this forum. The general consensus is that it is not a good practice, and that a pup should be allowed to mature to be all it can be, build muscle and bulk before altering it.

Kudos to the Pendragons for forming relationships like they have with you. This is what all breeders should strive for. Nobody has said they may not be perfectly lovely people, but their breeding practices and ethics have been called into question and Heather Pendragon became a member of this forum the day after this thread was begun. Perhaps it would be good if she came on and explained why things are done at Pendragon as they are. If there is testing we are not aware of enlighten us. If there is a reason why we should be looking at breeding our own bitches at nine years old or back to back heats, maybe it would serve us all well to know why we should be doing this ourselves.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I wanted to acknowledge that I made a mistake in my original post- light red or apricot pups at Pendragon are $2,200, cinnamon puppies are $2,400 and red puppies are $2,600. Sorry for the mistake.


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## creativeparti

oh dear..... i have watched a program on this breeder before and i was not impressed all the poodles looked scruffy ect and not the sort of place i would get a pup from..


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## Purley

I don't think anyone on here criticized the Pendragon as people. I don't think anyone actually knows them except for Dave. 

The thing is that often very nice people get into breeding dogs before they are aware of all the intricacies of what is entailed. Its this kind of board with people who have a lot of knowledge this is useful. It may very well be that the Pendragons will read comments from more experienced breeders and they will learn from them and go on to make improvements in their practice.

It may be that they are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time but are perfectly willing to improve what they do, once they know that there are better ways of doing things.


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## spoospirit

Purley said:


> I don't think anyone on here criticized the Pendragon as people. I don't think anyone actually knows them except for Dave.
> 
> The thing is that often very nice people get into breeding dogs before they are aware of all the intricacies of what is entailed. Its this kind of board with people who have a lot of knowledge this is useful. It may very well be that the Pendragons will read comments from more experienced breeders and they will learn from them and go on to make improvements in their practice.
> 
> It may be that they are doing the best they can with the knowledge they have at the time but are perfectly willing to improve what they do, once they know that there are better ways of doing things.


_This was so nicely put, Purley. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when possible until they prove me wrong.
_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

spoospirit said:


> _This was so nicely put, Purley. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt when possible until they prove me wrong.
> _


Me too!!


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## Raena

quick question, penndragon and pendragon are two different breeders correct??


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## cbrand

Raena said:


> quick question, penndragon and pendragon are two different breeders correct??


Yes....

Kim Bates is Penndragon (note two "nns"). Very different breeding programs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Raena said:


> quick question, penndragon and pendragon are two different breeders correct??


Yes, and apparently PENNDRAGON breeds incredible dogs. I know nothing about them but have heard here that they test, show awesome dogs and breed for lovely, healthy pups.


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## wishpoo

*Penndragon in CA* is *Creme De La Cream* breeder !!!!!

Fantastic person behind fantastic dogs !!!!!!!:rockon:


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## spoospirit

_Oh wow! Nice poodles at Penndragon!_ _ I got excited when I saw the agility photos!_


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## faerie

even, i, a laypoodle person can see that penNdragon poodles are nice dogs.


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## Vibrant

I have met two Pendragon poodles and their owners (one at my obedience class and one at my cottage) and they have had no complaints about the breeder. The dogs had lovely colour and wonderful temperaments, and no health issues.


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## Poodle Lover

cbrand said:


> Yes....
> 
> Kim Bates is Penndragon (note two "nns"). Very different breeding programs.


Yes indeed, Kim's dogs are to die for!!!!! I was at the dog show two weeks ago and her dogs that were entered were spectacular, as usual.


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## plumcrazy

Vibrant said:


> I have met two Pendragon poodles and their owners (one at my obedience class and one at my cottage) and they have had no complaints about the breeder. The dogs had lovely colour and wonderful temperaments, and no health issues.


Cool!!! If *I* ever become a breeder, I will simply follow Pendragon's breeding practices and if anyone ever questions me, I'll just say it's all OK to not health test, breed back to back, whelp 4 litters within two weeks because the puppies will have "lovely colour and wonderful temperatments, and no health issues" (that are apparent at the moment) and because Vibrant on the Poodle Forum gave me her blessing to breed like this by posting this comment :wacko: :fish:


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## Olie

Vibrant said:


> I have met two Pendragon poodles and their owners (one at my obedience class and one at my cottage) and they have had no complaints about the breeder. The dogs had lovely colour and wonderful temperaments, and no health issues.


I am sure there are some good situations that DO come out of breeder "types" like this or they would not sell as many dogs as they do.

This breeder took the cake for me:scared:


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## Vibrant

plumcrazy said:


> Cool!!! If *I* ever become a breeder, I will simply follow Pendragon's breeding practices and if anyone ever questions me, I'll just say it's all OK to not health test, breed back to back, whelp 4 litters within two weeks because the puppies will have "lovely colour and wonderful temperatments, and no health issues" (that are apparent at the moment) and because Vibrant on the Poodle Forum gave me her blessing to breed like this by posting this comment :wacko: :fish:


What happened to the mature discussion you were talking about on the other thread?
The comment you just made sounds like something children in primary school would say to each other


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## plumcrazy

This was my way of explaining that your post didn't make sense to me... 

I stand my my opinion though, just because the puppies from this breeder have nice color, temperaments and no health issues (that are apparent at the moment) DOES NOT mean the breeder is following decent breeding protocol, and I felt your comment was dismissing that fact because the puppies turn out ok... Sometimes when I hang out with people who act like they're in elementary school, it rubs off on me! Mea culpa...


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## baileysdad

*What is the matter with you people*

Do you realize how jealous and envious you people sound slamming the Pendragon Poodle line. Your posts are based out of ignorance. If you had ever actually been to their place or met their dogs you could not say what you are saying. I have two Pendragon dogs. They are super healthy and super friendly and super intelligent. They are the ideal family pet. My previous Standard was from show stock and resulting in 13 years of heart ache as the breeder was trying for the perfect show dog and the animal suffered as a result. I was not going to go through that again, so I chose them because their breeding practices ARE in the best interest of the puppies and parents health and longevity. I will never buy another "show quality" dog again and am looking forward to aquiring another Pendragon Pup for my son's 10th birthday next June. As far as the price I've saved myself thousands of dollars in vet bills by choosing a healthy dog. I know if I were in their shoes I would hire myself an Internet Defamation lawyer and nail your butts to the wall.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Nothing on this thread or the other one you have resurrected was defamatory. Everything reported was picked up from the Pendragon's own web site. I am very happy for you that you had wonderful experience, and hope and pray you will continue to be happy with your Pendragon dogs and your experience with them. Nobody said a puppy should be show quality or perfect...there is no such thing. We all expressed a desire to see health testing done on the parents, and not so much breeding going on.


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## baileysdad

*I disagree*

When people start throwing around words like health issues and puppy mill and implying they are breeding the same dogs too frequently I would say that those are things that could have an impact on their business. Such statements are defamatory. I purchased from them because of their web site and the obvious love they have for their dogs which is what I saw. Just because they are able to handle multiple litters at the same time, from different dams and sires does not mean they are a mill. Clearly the results speak for themselves and the only thing that could hurt their business are comments born out of ignorance and jealousy. I have met a lot of owners of their dogs over the last 9 years and they have all been happy so you can save your prayers for some other breeder's dogs.


----------



## Spencer

baileysdad said:


> Do you realize how jealous and envious you people sound slamming the Pendragon Poodle line. Your posts are based out of ignorance. If you had ever actually been to their place or met their dogs you could not say what you are saying. I have two Pendragon dogs. They are super healthy and super friendly and super intelligent. They are the ideal family pet. My previous Standard was from show stock and resulting in 13 years of heart ache as the breeder was trying for the perfect show dog and the animal suffered as a result. I was not going to go through that again, so I chose them because their breeding practices ARE in the best interest of the puppies and parents health and longevity. I will never buy another "show quality" dog again and am looking forward to aquiring another Pendragon Pup for my son's 10th birthday next June. As far as the price I've saved myself thousands of dollars in vet bills by choosing a healthy dog. I know if I were in their shoes I would hire myself an Internet Defamation lawyer and nail your butts to the wall.


So much wrong with this... You have less than ten posts and you're already on here reviving a dead thread, and telling people off?

If that doesn't angrily scream troll, I don't know what does. But, maybe I'm just jealous and envious. :eyeroll:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

baileysdad said:


> When people start throwing around words like health issues and puppy mill and implying they are breeding the same dogs too frequently I would say that those are things that could have an impact on their business. Such statements are defamatory. I purchased from them because of their web site and the obvious love they have for their dogs which is what I saw. Just because they are able to handle multiple litters at the same time, from different dams and sires does not mean they are a mill. Clearly the results speak for themselves and the only thing that could hurt their business are comments born out of ignorance and jealousy. I have met a lot of owners of their dogs over the last 9 years and they have all been happy so you can save your prayers for some other breeder's dogs.


No, I will continue to pray for the health and well being of their puppies, because if the parents are indeed not health tested, there is a very real possibility of things cropping up in the future. There are issues in every line of Standard Poodles, and while health testing surely does not guarantee a breeder will never have problems in their lines, it is a gigantic step in the right direction. Do they health test? Have you yourself seen results? Because it is not mentioned on their web site and I cannot find any results on Poodle Health Registry.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

You know, the sad thing is...this thread was dead and buried months ago. By resurrecting it, you have now brought their breeding practices to the forefront yet again. I am sure by now when folks Googled Pendragon Poodles, the threads from this forum had begun to disappear from the list Google would have compiled. NOW, it will start all over again.


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## baileysdad

*Seems like a close knit little group here*

I was just googling standard poodles and saw the reference to the threads and felt compelled to sign up and say something. Somebody has to. Somebody needed to contribute who actually has one of their dogs, knows a lot of owners of their dogs, and knows what kind of breeding they practice. The problem when you give some people a computer and internet connection is they post things that do do not know to be true. They may just imply things, but then again that is why their is so much teenage suicide relating from internet bullying and postings that aren't true. If any of you have any actual facts to share then please do post them as I will be using this site to further enhancement my knowledge regarding Standard Poodles and what's available. Like you said their dogs are expensive so I'm just doing my due diligence before purchasing another Std.


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## cbrand

baileysdad said:


> My previous Standard was from show stock and resulting in 13 years of heart ache as the breeder was trying for the perfect show dog and the animal suffered as a result.


Can you give us your former show dog's pedigree? What health issues did it have? Living to age 13 is not bad.



> I was not going to go through that again, so I chose them because their breeding practices ARE in the best interest of the puppies and parents health and longevity.


What *exactly* do you like about their breeding practices? What makes them superior? I see Pendragon throwing around a lot of rhetoric but saying things does not necessarily make them true. What *specifically* do you think they are doing right because they engage in practices that make a lot of us cringe.


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## Keithsomething

...Well according to their site they're downsizing their products so I'd act fast if I were you

They charge more for certain colours,
They have numerous bitches giving birth at a time
And weirdest part of all is the fact that they allow their dogs to whelp litters on their couch

If you're happy about the dogs you've gotten that's great, but don't patronize us and say that they're from the best breeders in the world


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

baileysdad said:


> I was just googling standard poodles and saw the reference to the threads and felt compelled to sign up and say something. Somebody has to. Somebody needed to contribute who actually has one of their dogs, knows a lot of owners of their dogs, and knows what kind of breeding they practice. The problem when you give some people a computer and internet connection is they post things that do do not know to be true. They may just imply things, but then again that is why their is so much teenage suicide relating from internet bullying and postings that aren't true. If any of you have any actual facts to share then please do post them as I will be using this site to further enhancement my knowledge regarding Standard Poodles and what's available. Like you said their dogs are expensive so I'm just doing my due diligence before purchasing another Std.



Do YOU know facts? Other than you like your Pendragon dogs and like Heather and Greg? Do YOU KNOW if they health test their breeding dogs? Do you KNOW if they bred a nine year old bitch? You are asking US for facts. Well, you have been there, met them, bought dogs from them, so why don't YOU share facts with us. Do they or do they not health test? Where would the results be posted? Do they or do they not breed bitches as old as nine? Maybe you can help us all understand their logic.


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## baileysdad

*Show vs pet*

My previous dog was from the Whytecliff line (not sure if I spelled that right). His mother was a Canadian Champ apparently. His line was bred for confirmation (again not sure if it is conformation). Anyway his organs did not fit right in his abdomen so he had kidney problems, twisted intenstines, seizures, a host of allergies to almost everything, and you could not trust him around anyone he didn't know, kids included. I spent the last several weeks making his food trying to get him to eat. And sorry I was wrong he wasn't 13 he was 11 years 2 months. All that being said he was a great dog to me and I miss him dearly. I do not know if all dogs from that line were unhealthy, though I have met many other owners who suffered similar fates.

What I like about their dogs at least the line mine comes from is they are tall and stocky and healthy and I can trust him with anyone. Sure he'll give a visitor to our house a story when they knock. But I can let him out and he won't try to eat them. Every one of their dogs is like this. I think it has to do with the 8 weeks leading up to adoption. They are trained, exposed to all kinds of other animals and lots of people. I spent almost every day at their place during the 8 weeks before he came home. It was an amazing place. Puppies playing with other dogs outside, farm animals running around. When they lived in BC they were a foster home for rescue animals. If an animal was hurt and the local pet hospitals couldn't keep it, they sent it to their house. One time they took in a big standard Logan who had been beaten with a 2x4. They loved him even though he ate the inside of the truck. One day they took in 100 chicks some guy was not looking after. I have a picture of my son at 1yr old sitting ina tub with 100 chicks crawling all over them. So what do I like about their breeding practices? I guess it is if I were a dog it would be a great place to live. Allowed to run and be a dog until it's time to do the deed. Living the dream. LOL. I believe people are a product of their environment and suspect that dogs are too. So I chose them because of the environment they make available to their dogs.


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## Dogsinstyle

http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=104481
This lucky girl had 9 litters. Several of her daughters had their first litter just after 12 months of age. Of the 250 plus Pendragon dogs on PHR, most average a COI of 25., some over 30.
I'm not sure which of these breeding practices are acceptable under any circumstance.
Carole


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## baileysdad

*Coi?*

Hi Carol, what is COI for use dog lovers who aren't breeders.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=104481
> This lucky girl had 9 litters. Several of her daughters had their first litter just after 12 months of age. Of the 250 plus Pendragon dogs on PHR, most average a COI of 25., some over 30.
> I'm not sure which of these breeding practices are acceptable under any circumstance.
> Carole


Thank you Carole. You saved me having to look this up. I was just told by another breeder about this poor gal last week, and was hoping I would not have to wade through all the dogs on PHR to find her.

Bailey'sdad...is this sort of thing okay with you????????????????


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

baileysdad said:


> Hi Carol, what is COI for use dog lovers who aren't breeders.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> But Heather and Greg Pendragon ARE dog breeders and should know about COI's and inbreeding and the role common ancestors can play in their puppies.
> 
> Canine Diversity Homepage
> 
> You can read about COI's here.


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## baileysdad

*I forgot to say*

I do not know if they health test. I just know they have healthy dogs. And time has supported that. Please educate me here what is the purpose of health testing and what body does it. Is it for show purposes? Appreciate the answers. I'm smarter now then when I woke up today.

I think the oldest female they had was Igrain and no she was not bred when she was nine. When the females are retired or whatever you call it, they retire to a life of leisure. They're not sold off because they cost money to feed. Same with the males. I've seen their records and they are meticulous in which dogs they breed and when so as to ensure they aren't bred frequently. That is why they have so many dogs. They explained to me one time that for every three times most breeders breed a female they only breed her twice. So if anything they err on the side of less frequent breeding not more.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=104481
> This lucky girl had 9 litters. Several of her daughters had their first litter just after 12 months of age. Of the 250 plus Pendragon dogs on PHR, most average a COI of 25., some over 30.
> I'm not sure which of these breeding practices are acceptable under any circumstance.
> Carole


Carole...I cannot get this link to open. Could you give me this girl's registered name please?


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## Dogsinstyle

COI is Wright's Coefficient of Inbreeding. It is a measure of how related the parents of the dog were.

That is the very problem that evolved from the Wycliffe dogs breeding closely for many generations. Much information is found here:
Canine Diversity Homepage
Even though Dr. Armstrong has been gone for many years, his insights are valid today.

Pendragon is on that same path, if you look at the pedigrees, many are half brother-sister matings, continuing for several generations.


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## Dogsinstyle

Cherie, try this-
PHR Pedigree Database or
Pendragons Mail-Order Annie Click on decendants, or type in Pendragon in the search of PHR, and look at many of the pedigrees.


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## Feralpudel

baileysdad said:


> Hi Carol, what is COI for use dog lovers who aren't breeders.


I'm not Carole, but COI is coefficient of inbreeding--it is a calculation of how many common ancestors a dog has (typically in 10 or 12 generations). Here is some more information on COI and what is means from John Armstrong, who did a lot to get the conversation started about genetic diversity in poodles:

Inbreeding


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## Dogsinstyle

Looking at their dogs on PHR, I'd have to say that 
"They explained to me one time that for every three times most breeders breed a female they only breed her twice."
Is absolutely not true.


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## wishpoo

I really hope somebody will help :ahhhhh:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Extra! Extra!
BEST DEAL EVER!!

Pendragon Poodles has an overabundance of dogs! We MUST get these 6 month old puppies sold before considering any further litters.

PLEASE HELP!

We are offering our amazing dogs at the best price ever of ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS for the cinnamon or apricot dog of your choice.

That's a $1200-$1400 SAVINGS! PLEASE HELP US get these puppies to their FUREVER homes as soon as possible! It's URGENT they go home NOW!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> Cherie, try this-
> PHR Pedigree Database or
> Pendragons Mail-Order Annie Click on decendants, or type in Pendragon in the search of PHR, and look at many of the pedigrees.


So this girl was barely a year old when she was bred. YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Keithsomething

wishpoo said:


> I really hope somebody will help :ahhhhh:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Extra! Extra!
> BEST DEAL EVER!!
> 
> Pendragon Poodles has an overabundance of dogs! We MUST get these 6 month old puppies sold before considering any further litters.
> 
> PLEASE HELP!
> 
> We are offering our amazing dogs at the best price ever of ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS for the cinnamon or apricot dog of your choice.
> 
> That's a $1200-$1400 SAVINGS! PLEASE HELP US get these puppies to their FUREVER homes as soon as possible! It's URGENT they go home NOW!



You and me both Wiahpoo
That sort of advertising is deplorable to me v.v


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

baileysdad said:


> I do not know if they health test. I just know they have healthy dogs. And time has supported that. Please educate me here what is the purpose of health testing and what body does it. Is it for show purposes? Appreciate the answers. I'm smarter now then when I woke up today.
> 
> I think the oldest female they had was Igrain and no she was not bred when she was nine. When the females are retired or whatever you call it, they retire to a life of leisure. They're not sold off because they cost money to feed. Same with the males. I've seen their records and they are meticulous in which dogs they breed and when so as to ensure they aren't bred frequently. That is why they have so many dogs. They explained to me one time that for every three times most breeders breed a female they only breed her twice. So if anything they err on the side of less frequent breeding not more.


How do you KNOW they have healthy dogs? Because they told you they do? The health testing breeders do is NOT for show purposes AT ALL!!! It is to do "due diligence" in proving, as much as it possible, that ones breeding stock has good hips, good eyes, a healthy, strong heart, that they will not pass on Von Willebrand's, Degenerative Myelopathy, Neonatal encephalopathy, Sebaceous Adenitis... and are healthy enough to consider breeding at all. One of the biggest contributors of all of these diseases or disorders has been irresponsible breeding. If everyone who bred would test for everything possible, and would research who they are breeding to, and not just breed because they have a fertile male and a fertile female, eventually most of these things could be eradicated in the breed altogether. Not just for Poodles who will be shown, but all Poodles!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

baileysdad said:


> I do not know if they health test. I just know they have healthy dogs. And time has supported that. Please educate me here what is the purpose of health testing and what body does it. Is it for show purposes? Appreciate the answers. I'm smarter now then when I woke up today.
> 
> I think the oldest female they had was Igrain and no she was not bred when she was nine. When the females are retired or whatever you call it, they retire to a life of leisure. They're not sold off because they cost money to feed. Same with the males. I've seen their records and they are meticulous in which dogs they breed and when so as to ensure they aren't bred frequently. That is why they have so many dogs. They explained to me one time that for every three times most breeders breed a female they only breed her twice. So if anything they err on the side of less frequent breeding not more.


Not to beat a dead horse, but according to PHR, Ingraine had her sixth litter just shy of her tenth birthday in March 2006. If nothing else Baileysdad, maybe this thread will help you realize you should not take everything at face value or believe everything you are told. http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=104965

Her son, Mr. Woofus Fuzzy little Peach, a male who appears to have no health testing himself and little to no testing behind him, has sired 88 puppies all before he was three years old! Is this really okay with you? http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_descend.pl?id=95985


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## Dogsinstyle

One thing to consider, not all the litters are on PHR- Hanna Joy's last listed litter is in 2007 on PHR, but on the Pendragon website, she has a litter in 2010- so it's safe to assume there were litters in between 2007-2010. That would give her at least 7 litters.
Face value, maybe no concern, but it looks like all the dogs were bred in a similar fashion, 6 to 9 litters each. 
That is a factory.
Carole


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I need to seriously stop looking into them on PHR. It is literally making me sick to my stomach!


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## neVar

Most good reputable breeders will get 1-2 litters out of a bitch in it's lifetime. MAYBE 3. this goes for almost any breed of dogs. 

Good reputable breeders will health test their dogs for all applicable tests. This is the way that we continue to improve the breed. R ather then just providing more dogs. 

Breeding and not having a filthy place doesn't make you a good breeder. There are plenty of BYB who breed crappy dogs who take very good care of their dogs. Clean places, feed them well. Doesn't mean they are GOOD breeders. nor are they reputable/responsible breeders. 

There's shades of grey in breeding. There is lots of shades of brey between the puppy mill who keeps their dogs in filth and the reputable good breeders. Pendragon is definatly in one of those shades of grey but isn't IMO a reputable GOOD breeder.


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## Keithsomething

Baileysdad...now that you see all this information that the intelligent people here have discovered...Do you still feel that you have bought from an ethical breeder? One that you would return too just because of the way your dog was raised?


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## neVar

I made this list for another website the other day. 
GOod reputable breeders should do the following:
1- Breed REGISTERED dogs with a legitimate registry. The big ones being AKC/CKC. however some breeds are not in those yet. Some say like the Jack russels have their own group but do not participate in AKC.
2-Prove their breeding stock in the conformation ring/performance ring. personally i like to see dogs who do both. IE. Flyball and a few conformation shows. Or Obedience and conformation shows. This helps show temperment, and conformation
3- Health tests their dogs. Most breed clubs have lists of the common health issues with a dog- and tests available. The breeder should do all reasonable tests available for that breed. this includes OFA for hips/elbows etc, CERF for eyes, BAER for hearing , DNA tests etc.
4-Not breed dogs before 2 years of age.
5-Breed for better quality each litter. To better the breed
6- not have oodles of litters in a year. Most good breeders will have 1-2 litters a year. Not to say occaionally that 3 might not happen.
7- Personally i want breeders who's dogs live in the house with them. not just in kennel situations.
8-Stand behind their dogs with a guarentee. This should cover anything genetic/structural/behavior for 2-3 years at a min. however if all the OFA"s etc have been done- chances of hip issues are slim.
9-Match puppy to the right home NOT just what ever puppy you think is cutest.
10-have pups go on a non breeding contract. Good breeders only place intact dogs with homes they know well and on Co own agreements. this way they always have control on what's happening with that pup.
11-answer your questions, seem educated about the breed and are willing to let you come see the place where puppies are raised.

There's more things of course. but this is what i'd say most dog people who are educated want in a breeder.

So the question is do they meet this criteria? no. from what we have seen/found they do not. Doesn't mean we're saying they abuse their dogs, beat them and keep them in filth. No one is saying that. BUt they are not reputable breeders.


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## Jessie's Mom

baileysdad said:


> What I like about their dogs at least the line mine comes from is they are tall and stocky and healthy and I can trust him with anyone. Sure he'll give a visitor to our house a story when they knock. But I can let him out and he won't try to eat them. Every one of their dogs is like this. I think it has to do with the 8 weeks leading up to adoption. They are trained, exposed to all kinds of other animals and lots of people.


BD - may i say something. i, like you, am not a breeder. i, like you, did not know all there was to know when searching for a puppy as far as the breeder is concerned. i'm sure your pup is beautiful and, thankfully, right now, healthy. hopefully that will continue for the rest of his life. our choosing where we got our pups from is not necessarily reflection of our experience. i thought that just the fact i was buying from a breeder i was doing all i needed to do. reading about the breeder you purchased from reminds me of the environment that my jessie came from too. lots of land, a lake to run around, pups & dogs playing together, children running around with pups, etc. sorry to say, that really is not the thermometer to gauge a breeder by. 

i see there have been some strong words on this thread, but there is no need to be defensive. like your pup, my jessie is beautiful. people stop in their cars to tell me how beautiful she is. however, she has the worse stomach problems you could imagine. i met 4 other people with a total of 5 dogs in my neighborhood alone (i live in bklyn, ny - breeder is from SC) who have dogs from this breeder (who, btw, is a sweet sweet woman) and everyone is beautiful. however, 4 out of 5 have stomach problems. you may be lucky that there is nothing going on at this time with the type of breeding practices your breeding is using, however, that doesn't mean they are doing anything to prevent it from happening in the future. something could be going on that hasn't yet reared it's ugly head but will down the road become apparent - with a COI that high i would be afraid.

i've learned so so much from the amazing people on this forum and sometimes i had to suck it up and realize no one was attacking me, but rather "attacking" a potentially bad or already bad breeding practice. the breeders on this forum work very very hard to help erradicate any possible genetic problem that could be passed on so that ordinary people like myself, like keithsomething, like you, could benefit by having peace of mind when we purchase a pup. i have learned that jessie's breeder is not someone i would want another dog from. i will have a second spoo at some point and i know who i would want to buy it from. 

for your 10 year old son, just be very wise when you decide where you get his pup from. you would not want to see your son hurt should the puppy not be healthy or not be a good match for him. there was actually a recent thread from a member who had the difficult decision to make about returning a pup b/c it was not a good match for her young child.

so BD, i'm just hoping my post softens this issue a bit. don't take anything said about your spoo's breeder personally. if you don't agree, so be it. but at least try to listen with an open mind and read between the lines of what is being said. all they are doing is trying to say some practices are really not healthy and could be time bombs in the future.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

AMEN! None of this is meant to be a personal attack against YOU or your dog, or even against the Pendragons as PEOPLE. But their breeding practices obviously leave a LOT to be desired, and the more any of us investigates with the tools available to us, the more I question their integrity as people too, if what you are stating you have been told by them is true. Educating people about what to ask, what to look for, insisting on seeing health testing results...this is key to creating savvy buyers who do not line the pockets of possibly unscrupulous breeders.

Jealousy and envy? Ohhhh.....I don't think so!


----------



## jojo

I would venture to say that the root of all evil, is MONEY! This holds true in breeding dogs, or any other passion or love one might have. Once you turn your passion into a business, it loses a bit of integrity, and a bit of pride. It is obvious that money is the main motivation for this "breeder" with all those back to back litters for so long. In order to make money, people take shortcuts, and a biz has to be efficient. Efficiently putting out pups is it's main objective. It may very well be, that the pups are healthy with no medical issues even though she doesnt health test. In fact, let's just say for arguments sake that they are even health tested, and the pups are top quality. Still, at what cost to her breeding bitches is she producing so many litters? Her bitches couldnt possibly have a chance at life when they are always pregnant or nursing pups. What possible reason other than money is there to put a dog through all that? I dont care how wonderful the pups are that she produces, she is torturing her own dogs, to turn a profit, and that should not be supported.


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## Olie

Yes this was a disturbing awareness 7 months ago and still is today. Nothing has changed - they are mill, producing beautiful train wrecks for loving unsuspecting people.

I am thankful I found this forum and learned at least how to spot an unethical breeder and found some wonderful ones that I have great relationships with.


----------



## Mini-Mum

wishpoo said:


> I really hope somebody will help :ahhhhh:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Extra! Extra!
> BEST DEAL EVER!!
> 
> Pendragon Poodles has an overabundance of dogs! We MUST get these 6 month old puppies sold before considering any further litters.
> 
> PLEASE HELP!
> 
> We are offering our amazing dogs at the best price ever of ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS for the cinnamon or apricot dog of your choice.
> 
> That's a $1200-$1400 SAVINGS! PLEASE HELP US get these puppies to their FUREVER homes as soon as possible! It's URGENT they go home NOW!


Interesting......this email was forwarded from one of my obedience lists last week, under the header: "Poodles in Need"

"I have been notified that Pendragon Poodles (formerly of the Sunshine Coast, now in Ontario) is forced to place all their poodles within the next month. They have 13 adults which will be given away free except for shipping costs, and some six month puppies that are $1000 (much less than their usual cost.) I have a friend who says they are the smartest and healthiest poodles going. The kennel has a very complete website, so anyone can look up info. Please advise your mailing list of this opportunity. Who knows who might be looking for a new obedience star.
Thanks a lot.
Barb"

I don't know who "Barb" is - but to me, this 'appeal for help' looks more like carefully crafted marketing, than something written by a concerned 3rd party that's just trying to help...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Mini-Mum said:


> Interesting......this email was forwarded from one of my obedience lists last week, under the header: "Poodles in Need"
> 
> "I have been notified that Pendragon Poodles (formerly of the Sunshine Coast, now in Ontario) is forced to place all their poodles within the next month. They have 13 adults which will be given away free except for shipping costs, and some six month puppies that are $1000 (much less than their usual cost.) I have a friend who says they are the smartest and healthiest poodles going. The kennel has a very complete website, so anyone can look up info. Please advise your mailing list of this opportunity. Who knows who might be looking for a new obedience star.
> Thanks a lot.
> Barb"
> 
> I don't know who "Barb" is - but to me, this 'appeal for help' looks more like carefully crafted marketing, than something written by a concerned 3rd party that's just trying to help...


They have a lot of ads on Kijiji right now selling off everything from banks of crates to china to vintage milkshake makers. Hmmmm...I wonder what's up...


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## Cdnjennga

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> They have a lot of ads on Kijiji right now selling off everything from banks of crates to china to vintage milkshake makers. Hmmmm...I wonder what's up...


Sounds like a going out of business sale to me.

Edited to add: Due to illness if you look at the website.


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## Cdnjennga

Cdnjennga said:


> Sounds like a going out of business sale to me.
> 
> Edited to add: Due to illness if you look at the website.


Nah, never mind, I don't think they're going out of business (although there obviously were some health issues). Looking further into the website they have puppies due in March. Obviously just needed to clear out some old stock to make room for new.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Cdnjennga said:


> Nah, never mind, I don't think they're going out of business (although there obviously were some health issues). Looking further into the website they have puppies due in March. Obviously just needed to clear out some old stock to make room for new.


Oh, good Heavens!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

It appears all of the older puppies have been placed, now they are promoting March "litters"!!! GADS!


----------



## Jessie's Mom

ok so i caved and looked at their website. they are definitely not going out of business. 
if i were an unaware consumer, (like i was before this forum), i could get won over by the way they "advertise" on their site. probably wouldn't buy b/c i can't afford a "pet quality" puppy at their prices. but i can see how they sprinkle magic and win the hearts of hopeful new poodle owners.
they are probably lovely people but now that i am an educated consumer, i see the holes - lots of glitter, but not much substance.


----------



## Feralpudel

I'm not seeing anything concrete about planned litters...could be just marketing blather (of which there is plenty!) that is always up? Just hoping...


----------



## Cdnjennga

Feralpudel said:


> I'm not seeing anything concrete about planned litters...could be just marketing blather (of which there is plenty!) that is always up? Just hoping...


Here... Could be out of date maybe?

"Currently all our puppies have been placed and we're expecting our spring litters to be born in Mid March and ready to go home Mid May. Our deposit lists often exceed our available puppies, so if you are indeed considering a Pendragon Poodle Puppy for 2011, please give us a call and we'll happily get you onto our secured deposit list!"

Pendragon Poodles - Standard Poodle Breeder, Ontario, Canada. Breeding Red and Apricot Standard Poodles.


----------



## Dave

You people are simply disgusting. I have been fortunate enough to have lived with standard poodles most of my life. The best dog I ever had is a Pendragon 
I just can't imagine dealing with any of you. I'll keep this site in mind the next time I am looking for a dog or talking with people who are. It is a perfrct list of who not to deal with.
Obviously in your world not all the bitches are in the kennel. I'd rather see the breed die out than support a single one of you. Fortunately that won't happen.


----------



## Feralpudel

Cdnjennga said:


> Here... Could be out of date maybe?
> 
> "Currently all our puppies have been placed and we're expecting our spring litters to be born in Mid March and ready to go home Mid May. Our deposit lists often exceed our available puppies, so if you are indeed considering a Pendragon Poodle Puppy for 2011, please give us a call and we'll happily get you onto our secured deposit list!"
> 
> Pendragon Poodles - Standard Poodle Breeder, Ontario, Canada. Breeding Red and Apricot Standard Poodles.


Ugh ugh ugh.


----------



## faerie

I love trainwrecks. where's the popcorn?

i think that practice is horrendous. i hate overbreeding.


----------



## Keithsomething

Dave said:


> You people are simply disgusting. I have been fortunate enough to have lived with standard poodles most of my life. The best dog I ever had is a Pendragon
> I just can't imagine dealing with any of you. I'll keep this site in mind the next time I am looking for a dog or talking with people who are. It is a perfrct list of who not to deal with.
> Obviously in your world not all the bitches are in the kennel. I'd rather see the breed die out than support a single one of you. Fortunately that won't happen.


O.O

I don't understand coming onto a forum just to say we're disgusting...that doesn't make any sense
try and disprove what has been said here

Do they breed health tested dogs?
Do they not breed dogs 9yrs of age?
Do they not breed dogs younger than 1yrs of age?

the simple facts are you can't disprove it because its all true, you've dealt with some of the lowest of low breeders yet you still defend them...its curious to me


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dave said:


> You people are simply disgusting. I have been fortunate enough to have lived with standard poodles most of my life. The best dog I ever had is a Pendragon
> I just can't imagine dealing with any of you. I'll keep this site in mind the next time I am looking for a dog or talking with people who are. It is a perfrct list of who not to deal with.
> Obviously in your world not all the bitches are in the kennel. I'd rather see the breed die out than support a single one of you. Fortunately that won't happen.


Well Dave, you re certainly entitled to your opinion, as are we. And all of us who are "disgusting" have based our opinions on information easily accessed on the Pendragon web site or from the Poodle Health Registry. I suggest you log in, sign up and have a look for yourself. Poodle Health Registry Any of us familiar with this site would be happy to teach you how to use it.


----------



## jojo

David you talk as if other people here are like pendragon. People here dont need your "support" in buying one of their pups lol. Unlike pendragon, they do not pay bills and put food on the table through the dogs. They don't exploit the dogs and treat them as a money making factory. They have other good jobs and the dogs are a passion. I'm glad you got a good poodle out of them, but like I said, even if they are producing good poodles, at what cost to the parents? Females being bred back to back till they're 9 yrs old...c'mon, you cant possibly support those practices...They're in it for the money, which means, they have different motives behind their litters. There used to be a horrible puppy mill producing "doodles" on the sunshine coast where pendragon is from. They were called winsome kennels. They got shut down and moved the operations elsewhere. Wouldnt surprise me if they were somehow connected to each other.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

jojo said:


> David you talk as if other people here are like pendragon. People here dont need your "support" in buying one of their pups lol. Unlike pendragon, they do not pay bills and put food on the table through the dogs. They don't exploit the dogs and treat them as a money making factory. They have other good jobs and the dogs are a passion. I'm glad you got a good poodle out of them, but like I said, even if they are producing good poodles, at what cost to the parents? Females being bred back to back till they're 9 yrs old...c'mon, you cant possibly support those practices...They're in it for the money, which means, they have different motives behind their litters. There used to be a horrible puppy mill producing "doodles" on the sunshine coast where pendragon is from. They were called winsome kennels. They got shut down and moved the operations elsewhere. Wouldnt surprise me if they were somehow connected to each other.


SERIOUSLY? Hmmmmm....


----------



## jojo

actually, I would almost bet they are the same. On the pendragon site, it says they relocated from Roberts creek b.c.. This is an extremely small community on the sunshine coast of b.c. It is a Very Small community and I would have known of a large kennel in the community. The only kennel there at the time was winsome kennels. Now go and google winsome kennels Roberts creek bc. It has many articles how and why the place got shut down and all the people that were scammed. And there was word around that they had moved to Ontario. Maybe it's all just a great coincidence...lol. I actually remember when winsome kennels had their closing down sale plastered all over kijiji and had to place all of those doodles. They said it was because they were relocating to Ontario. Just do the research and make intelligent decisions. Just because the one pup you got turned out good, doesnt mean anything David. Could mean you were just one of the lucky ones.


----------



## plumcrazy

According to one message I read on this site - the owner/operator of Winsome is Jamie Shepard...

Yahoo! Answers - Adopting Dogs and puppy mills?


----------



## PaddleAddict

baileysdad said:


> I was just googling standard poodles and saw the reference to the threads and felt compelled to sign up and say something. Somebody has to. Somebody needed to contribute who actually has one of their dogs, knows a lot of owners of their dogs, and knows what kind of breeding they practice. The problem when you give some people a computer and internet connection is they post things that do do not know to be true. They may just imply things, but then again that is why their is so much teenage suicide relating from internet bullying and postings that aren't true. If any of you have any actual facts to share then please do post them as I will be using this site to further enhancement my knowledge regarding Standard Poodles and what's available. Like you said their dogs are expensive so I'm just doing my due diligence before purchasing another Std.


Did the OP ever come back? (Meaning, the OP who brought this thread back to life.)

I don't understand why people think what's being said about this kennel is so awful. No one is calling this place a puppymill or that the dogs are not cared for. It's being called a high-volume breeder with questionable breeding practices (i.e., not health testing, breeding bitches back to back, breeding bitches too young and too old, breeding a high volume of litters). 

It is what it is. If people want to buy from them that is their prerogative. I personally wouldn't buy from them.


----------



## SECRETO

Maybe I missed this being mentioned but there are two Pendragon Poodle breeders. One is the Canada (byb type) and the other a reputable AKC active show breeder here in California. One spells it Penndragon, the other Pendragon. 

Just didnt want them to be associated as the same. 

Penndragon Standard Poodles

Pendragon Poodles - Standard Poodle Breeder, Ontario, Canada. Breeding Red and Apricot Standard Poodles.

The Penndragon here in California has beautiful pups but they are top priced too! I met the husband at a local show recently and hung out with a Penndragon pup for a while. Nice man and beautiful pup.


----------



## SECRETO

Ok I thought I looked over the 3 pages listed and then after I posted I see 10 pages!! lol

Sorry if what I said was mentioned already guys!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

It has been mentioned before. and it has been made clear they are in two different camps breeding altogether different dogs with altogether different breeding practices.


----------



## Dave

Thanks for proving my point.


----------



## Lilah+Jasper

SECRETO said:


> Penndragon Standard Poodles
> 
> Pendragon Poodles - Standard Poodle Breeder, Ontario, Canada. Breeding Red and Apricot Standard Poodles.
> 
> The Penndragon here in California has beautiful pups but they are top priced too! I met the husband at a local show recently and hung out with a Penndragon pup for a while. Nice man and beautiful pup.


Oh my - those are beautiful dogs and puppies! Maybe someday...


----------



## plumcrazy

Dave said:


> Thanks for proving my point.


:confused2: :confused3:  :dontknow:


----------



## Dave

Huh? Your point would be?


----------



## plumcrazy

Exactly! You stated "Thanks for proving my point" and I'm wondering what that might be? I haven't seen any points proven except that the Canadian Pendragon breeding program leaves something to be desired.


----------



## Spencer

Please tell me you guys have seen THIS

"SECURE YOUR SPRING PUPPY NOW!

We've gone a month without selling a puppy, and our record is five deposits in one day, so I can never promise what tomorrow will bring.
Please call us if you're interested and we'll happily discuss our policy to secure your deposit or to help you further in your puppy decision making process."

... DOT DOT DOT is all I can say!


----------



## Dave

My point is that it is easy to run someone down. This forum simply proves it. You don't need or care to get the facts, you make it up as you go along, and you are vicious about it.
Why not apply for a job on Fox News...you beauties could pick up where Beck, Limbaugh, Palin and friends leave off. Like I said, not all the bitches here are in kennels. You should all be ashamed of yourselves...but you won't.


----------



## Locket

Spencer said:


> Please tell me you guys have seen THIS
> 
> "SECURE YOUR SPRING PUPPY NOW!
> 
> We've gone a month without selling a puppy, and our record is five deposits in one day, so I can never promise what tomorrow will bring.
> Please call us if you're interested and we'll happily discuss our policy to secure your deposit or to help you further in your puppy decision making process."
> 
> ... DOT DOT DOT is all I can say!


So sad for those momma dogs.


----------



## PaddleAddict

Dave said:


> My point is that it is easy to run someone down. This forum simply proves it. You don't need or care to get the facts, you make it up as you go along, and you are vicious about it.
> Why not apply for a job on Fox News...you beauties could pick up where Beck, Limbaugh, Palin and friends leave off. Like I said, not all the bitches here are in kennels. You should all be ashamed of yourselves...but you won't.


Everything said in this thread can be found on their public website. It's not a secret and no one is making anything up.


----------



## Locket

Dave said:


> Like I said, not *all* the bitches here are in kennels.



So some are???

That is enough to turn me off a breeder, but the fact that they are breeding SENIOR dogs, and mass producing puppies simply for profit is NOT okay and demonstrates VERY poor breeding practices. Not to mention they do not health test their "breeding stock"...

Please understand that the problem I have with their breeding practices is that they are NOT bettering the breed. Add to that, they are producing MORE puppies when they continue to struggle selling the puppies they already have when there are hundreds of thousands of dogs needing homes...they are not only doing a disservice to the poodle breed, they are doing a disservice to the entire canine species.


----------



## Dave

Like I said...shame on you.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dave said:


> My point is that it is easy to run someone down. This forum simply proves it. You don't need or care to get the facts, you make it up as you go along, and you are vicious about it.
> Why not apply for a job on Fox News...you beauties could pick up where Beck, Limbaugh, Palin and friends leave off. Like I said, not all the bitches here are in kennels. You should all be ashamed of yourselves...but you won't.


 Dave...what exactly is YOUR point? The facts have been made PERFECTLY clear, through information garnered from the Pendragon web site and the Poodle Health Registry. Are you implying they are liars now too? Nobody would have the audacity or stupidity to risk being sued by coming on a public forum and making this crap up. Everything that has been said has been backed up with EVIDENCE gleaned from the Pendragon site or Poodle Health Registry. I am pretty sure the registry has better things to do that focus on one breeder, put misinformation on their site about nearly every one of the dogs there that bears the Pendragon name just to make their lives miserable. The facts speak for themselves, but YOU have chosen not to listen. It is actually very sad, because THIS speaks to me about how all of this got so out of control with them in the first place.


----------



## Locket

Dave said:


> Like I said...shame on you.


No, shame on YOU for sticking your head in the sand.

The greatest evil in the world is not those who commit the evil acts, but those who stand by and do nothing to stop them...or in your case, support them.


----------



## Spencer

Locket said:


> The greatest evil in the world is not those who commit the evil acts, but those who stand by and do nothing to stop them...or in your case, support them.


+1

(messagetooshort)


----------



## Keithsomething

its so disheartening to me that this Dave person doesn't care enough to be educated by what has been offered here...which are nothing but the facts
Makes one wonder if there are more individuals like him buying dogs, or worse breeding them

Hopefully baileysdad's silence on the matter means that he sees the error in his thinking?


----------



## Leooonie

Just found this thread, and am appalled! I have seen the 'pendragon' dogs before, and I was shocked by the expense of the dogs!
Most angry however, am I about airing the program with them in, on AP.
People in Britain (where is has recently been shown) are already incredibly ignorant about where they get their dogs .. they dont need to see these 'happy' dogs prancing around, looking lovely, but having no performance background, or anything.

Dogs need more than a happy temperament...
and in my eyes breeding these dogs is the same as crossbreeding poodles with other breeds .. another 'good' thing to do.


I find it funny how Dave refers to it as a 'business' - obviously somewhere deep downyou DO realise its for the money.


----------



## wishpoo

> its so disheartening to me that this Dave person doesn't care enough to be educated by what has been offered here...which are nothing but the facts
> Makes one wonder if there are more individuals like him buying dogs, or worse breeding them
> 
> Hopefully baileysdad's silence on the matter means that he sees the error in his thinking?


*It is really tragic that with all available information nowadays people still not only fail to inform themselves about things but blatantly choose to ignore the FACTS that are SERVED to them *:crazy::mmph::rant::shot:

Amazing , really ...

Well, no wonder there is no end in site for puppy-mills,mass-breeders and animal abuse in general. Just horrible : (((.

People take more time to do market research for coffee maker than for a living, breathing animal that will share their home with them for 9-13 years :noidea:. It never cease to amaze me O_O

PS: *Locket* - he was talking about *us*, I think, when he was referring to "bitches" LMAO Like not all bitches are in a kennel (obviously it is OK to lock-up female in a cage and breed her to no end), but some are "out and about" on the forum like this ound: LOL. Very "gentlemanly" indeed LOL


----------



## Vibrant

I am absolutely sickened by this. 
Dave, in a fashion, I defended this breeder because the Pendragon poodles I have met are great dogs.
I retract that defence. The breeder sent out, to many groups, a plea for help to 'rescue' their adult and juvenile dogs. Apparently that was a scam, as they are now breeding litters for 2011. 
I normally defend the 'underdog'. Not this time.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Dave said:


> Like I said...shame on you.


Look at your comment, now back to mine. Now back at your comment now *BACK* to mine.

Sadly it isn't mine, but if you stopped trolling and started posting﻿ legitimate comments it could look like﻿ mine.﻿

Look down, back﻿ up, where are you? You're﻿﻿ scrolling through comments, writing the﻿ comment your comment could look like.

What did you post?﻿ Back at﻿ mine, it's a reply saying something you want to hear. 

Look again, the﻿ reply is now _diamonds_. 

Anything is possible with﻿ legit comments.

I'm on a chair.


----------



## jojo

lol...why are people expecting even reasonably intelligent statements from Dave? Hasnt he already said enough to show that this is not possible?


----------



## Oodlejpoodle's mom

Am I the only one here that thinks that "DAVE" is really Greg and perhaps he was neutered (no [email protected]&&S) and that is why he cannot tell the truth??????


----------



## cbrand

Dave said:


> My point is that it is easy to run someone down. This forum simply proves it. You don't need or care to get the facts, you make it up as you go along, and you are vicious about it.



To address the issue of inbreeding at Pendragon (reference... the pedigree database at Poodle Health Registry)

The the Oct 2006 litter that produced Boo Carscadden Pendragon had an inbreeding coefficient of 31.8%[10G,10F,322U,191C]. It was a combination of a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister sire who was bred to his maternal aunt (same genetically as his mother). 

The June 2007 litter that produced Bogart Fitzpatrick Pendragon had an inbreeding coefficient of 36.6%[10G,10F,355U,192C]. It was a combination of a 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister dam bred back to her grandfather who was sire of both her mother and father.

As a reference, my Standard Poodle show dog Beauvoir's Swing On A Star has an inbreeding coefficient of 7.9%[10G,10F,721U,120C]. This means that my show dog has twice as many unique ancestors in a 10 generation pedigree as the Pendragon dogs above (721U vs. 322U). A COI of 36% is very high and higher than I see in most other breeding programs. 

Pendragon has started to breed to new lines with the inclusion of their stud Lambo but they will need to continue down this path unless they want severely inbred dogs.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Fluffyspoos? I do not understand your post..LOL


----------



## Locket

ChocolateMillie said:


> Fluffyspoos? I do not understand your post..LOL


I think it was a take off of this commercial LOL






Fluffyspoos, you're the best diffuser.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

lmao!


----------



## Fluffyspoos

*dreamy sigh* Oh, Old Spice guy.. why can't my man smell like you?


----------



## Dogsinstyle

ChocolateMillie said:


> Fluffyspoos? I do not understand your post..LOL


You must not have seen the Old Spice guy....

YouTube - OldSpice's Channel


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

It is really tragic that with all available information nowadays people still not only fail to inform themselves about things but blatantly choose to ignore the FACTS that are SERVED to them 


Yep...on a silver platter!!!!!

BTW...Fluffyspoos...you have got an incredible sense of humour! I did not get it either, but after seeing the commercial, realized just how fantastic that was!

I cannot believe anyone would question the validity of the points brought up here, when it is all backed up so clearly. Nice to have loyalty like this, but man...I would be embarrassed to have this kind of dedication to someone who has obviously bold faced lied to me, about a number of things apparently!


----------



## Olie

Now I get it...

I suddenly love Old Spice, a lot!


----------



## bigpoodleperson

I think that Dave is just a troll ment to get us all rilled up. We should just ignore him. :bootyshake:

Sigh, Old Spice guy!! :in-love:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

bigpoodleperson said:


> I think that Dave is just a troll ment to get us all rilled up. We should just ignore him. :bootyshake:
> 
> Sigh, Old Spice guy!! :in-love:


Possibly. But if we ignore Dave, we ignore the opportunity to educate the other unsuspecting souls who may be considering a puppy from these "breeders". Have you Googled them lately? It will be hard for people to ignore the truth or plead ignorance because what has gone on here is on page one of the Google search.


----------



## furmom

Locket said:


> No, shame on YOU for sticking your head in the sand.
> 
> The greatest evil in the world is not those who commit the evil acts, but those who stand by and do nothing to stop them...or in your case, support them.


Agree totally. Thanks for your quote.


----------



## furmom

Fluffyspoos, fantastic. Yes, Dave is a TROLL.


----------



## vtomblin

I was checking out Penndragon poodles from California. I found Penndragon Masaniello (Micah) who is my fave poodle to look at is listed on PHR as being MVR affected. That is so sad  For a breeder who seems so professional and dedicated, too bad. I hope it doesn't effect his quality of life as he ages. Just proof that you can do everything right and sometimes things happen. If you are doing things all wrong what kind of train wreck is brewing?


----------



## Feralpudel

Fluffyspoos said:


> Look at your comment, now back to mine. Now back at your comment now *BACK* to mine.


Kat, you crack me up.


----------



## Feralpudel

vtomblin said:


> I was checking out Penndragon poodles from California. I found Penndragon Masaniello (Micah) who is my fave poodle to look at is listed on PHR as being MVR affected. That is so sad  For a breeder who seems so professional and dedicated, too bad. I hope it doesn't effect his quality of life as he ages. Just proof that you can do everything right and sometimes things happen. If you are doing things all wrong what kind of train wreck is brewing?


It is sad, but my hat is off to Kim Bates for reporting it.


----------



## faerie




----------



## Dog Guy

jojo said:


> They were called winsome kennels. They got shut down and moved the operations elsewhere. Wouldnt surprise me if they were somehow connected to each other.


Don't mean to step on any toes here, but winsome didn't get "shut down": the owner had a fatal heart attack.
And (to my knowledge at least) there was no satellite operation....Edmonton was tossed around but he didn't have the money to put it together.


----------



## Jeremy

A few points I'd like to make:

1. I highly doubt the pet owners who had one or two dogs had a look at a breeder's records, as claimed. Especially considering the sheer number of puppies bred, its nonsensical that even the friendliest of breeders would bother sharing records of various dogs' past and future breedings, the why's and wherefore's, how old so-and-so was, how many times he-and-her were bred, etc.

2. Poster claims "all their dogs are healthy". You cannot know that and its nigh on impossible...even the healthiest of families cannot produce, year in year out, 100% healthy puppies. And this even with the best possible care, health testing etc. There are literally thousands of problems that can beset dogs, even with all the precautions being taken - which, in this case, apparently are not. 

3. All things considered, Dave and Baileysdad are probably not pet owners, but the breeders themselves or people close to them. At least, I know that that is what people on any other forum reason when people randomly sign up to defend someone. Details of what they say doesn't add up and they do not provide any facts that might counteract what is being brought up in this thread.

4. A bitch can only produce what is put into her. That is, a very well looked-after healthy girl fed best food and well exercised etc in perfect condition will be able to look after her pups adequately. Anything less and the pups will suffer directly as the pup's condition is a reflection of the mothers. Each breeding takes a big toll on the bitch and six litters AT VERY MOST is what the healthiest, most cared for and pampered bitch could possibly handle in a lifetime. And even then you're pushing it. Eight litters, at ten years of age...for a Standard Poodle who can whelp up to 12, 13 pups...is just cruelty. And from what one can gleam from INCOMPLETE information available on their site and PHR is that such practices are not a one-off, emergency situation (ie, breeding a slightly older bitch to salvage her bloodline) but a CONSTANT practice. 

Which would seem to indicate a carelessness, at very least, for the dog's well being.

4. There is nothing wrong for a person to devote their life to breeding and make it their profession, so to speak. If you like back in history you will see that those who achieved the very most for the breed devoted their time to it 100%. One cannot deny that top breeding makes top bucks. What makes a puppy mill isn't where the money goes or the show prospects of the dogs being bred, its the care that the dogs receive. You want to breed pet quality, you want to breed a new size, you want to breed a new coloration, you want to breed your own new crossbreed, whatever...If the dogs are receiving the best possible care, that's what matters. In a country like America there are ALOT of resources available - if someone is going to breed a single litter (let alone hundreds) the information and resources (ie, health testing) needed for best breeding are very much within reach. Again, to disregard these things and do things your own way just shows carelessness (at very least).

5. Those advertisements - either the ones which treat dogs like products, "clearance sale" "best price ever" "get in before we run out" - or the ones which use 

I dislike witchhunts, however, the fact is that the breeder is HERE in this forum, has changed/altered the damning information on their site but has not bothered to counterract any of these claims or change their practice in any way. The two "pet owners", speaking on their behalf, are very much non-repentant and overall its best to just stay the hell away from these guys.


----------



## Poodle Lover

vtomblin said:


> I was checking out Penndragon poodles from California. I found Penndragon Masaniello (Micah) who is my fave poodle to look at is listed on PHR as being MVR affected. That is so sad  For a breeder who seems so professional and dedicated, too bad. I hope it doesn't effect his quality of life as he ages. Just proof that you can do everything right and sometimes things happen. If you are doing things all wrong what kind of train wreck is brewing?


That's really too bad. I do know that Micah is a sire of current litter that was just born about 2.5 maybe 3 weeks ago. Was it a good idea to breed him? Is his condition going to be passed on to the pups???


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Someone called me this week and said Pendragon has two new litters on the ground. So, what's up?? There was a clearance sale, reduced prices, etc. all in the name of getting out of the business due to poor health. And here we go again...


----------



## A'n'A Mom

In reference to your posting about PHR findings about Penndragon Masaniello (Micah)... During a very thorough screening by Texas A&M cardiac researchers at PCA, it was noted that Micah had a very minor mitral valve regurgitation that was of NO significance. An interesting finding, but nothing to cause concern either to the health of Micah or to any offspring. This is according to one of the best veterinary cardiologists in the county, Dr. Sonja Gordon, who is doing research on Atrial Septal Defect in Standard Poodles. 
I am the one who posted that information to PHR, based on the form filled out by Dr. Gordon. The information capacities of the PHR database are insufficient to be able to say "It's a really minor thing...don't worry about it." 
So I'll say it here. There's nothing wrong with Micah's mitral valve. Don't worry about it. 
Nancy


----------



## caboodles

I Believe......
I believe there are no perfect breeders, because they are human. 
There is not one breeder, or person, in the world, that is liked by everyone.
A breeder needs a full time job to afford this expensive hobby
If a breeder does something new and unfamiliar, they will be deemed bad... until everyone else starts doing it.
A breeder's accomplishments will always be diminished by other breeders, until other breeders are achieving it. 
If a breeder is not being talked about, then they are not doing enough towards improving their breed or to raise the bar.
A breeder that bashes other breeders, only does so, because they have nothing good to say about their own dogs
Yet despite all of these truths, Great Breeders, continue to strive on towards their ideal vision and goals.
- Laura Turner


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

caboodles said:


> I Believe......
> I believe there are no perfect breeders, because they are human.
> There is not one breeder, or person, in the world, that is liked by everyone.
> A breeder needs a full time job to afford this expensive hobby
> If a breeder does something new and unfamiliar, they will be deemed bad... until everyone else starts doing it.
> A breeder's accomplishments will always be diminished by other breeders, until other breeders are achieving it.
> If a breeder is not being talked about, then they are not doing enough towards improving their breed or to raise the bar.
> A breeder that bashes other breeders, only does so, because they have nothing good to say about their own dogs
> Yet despite all of these truths, Great Breeders, continue to strive on towards their ideal vision and goals.
> - Laura Turner


Caboodles...that is a lovely quote by Laura Turner of Bijou Poodles, and we all have our own opinion of what makes a backyard breeder, what makes a great breeder, what the definition of bashing is, etc. But in my humble opinon, no great breeder, no ethical breeder, would breed un-tested dogs, nor would they breed a ten year old bitch for it's sixth, seventh, eighth or ninth litter. I am not going to say any more on this subject. Enough has been said in this thread by everyone involved. I told you in my PM to you that it is wonderful your dogs make you and your Mom happy, regardless of where they came from.


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## Tessa's Dad

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am not starting this thread to beat these people up. I think most people who go onto their web site can see what is going on here, but they must be selling pups like mad. They have whelped a litter of five red/apricot Standards on June 1st, another litter of nine on June 2nd, and another litter of 13 on June 13th!!!! Holy cannoli....that is a lot of litters in less than 2 weeks!!!! They also have six older pups who birthdates go as far back as May 2009.
> 
> Their prices are phenomenal too. Their pups range in price from $2,200 for apricot to $2,600 for darker toned which they call cinnamon. This is about $1,000 more than most other breeders are charging for their reds. Unbelievable.
> 
> I am posting this with the hope that if anyone who comes here sees this, they will shop around for a breeder who has one or two litters a year, and doesn't charge anywhere near these prices for their red pups.


Hmmm.....

5+9+13=27 pups.

$2600 - $2200 average price $2400.

$2400 x 27 = $64,800.00 (Just between June 1st and 13th, 2010. Wonder how many litters there were in other months of the year?) 


This wouldn't be about the money, would it? :angel2:


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## caboodles

First of all, it's just money. Money comes and money goes... And I believe we can all agree on that.

Secondly, the price someone pays for a dog truly is irrelevant when you think of all the expenses a poodle costs in its lifetime, in terms of food, vet, grooming, accessories. It all adds up way beyond the initial purchase price. it's not like a computer where it's a one time fee and you know what you're buying. Every animal is unique!

Thirdly, does it really matter how much someone pays for something that means the world to them? I'm sure if you conducted a survey to all the people here on the value of their poodle, they wouldn't be able to provide you with a figure.. Quite frankly because there is no figure to negotiate. Their poodles are worth more than words can describe, and I can only hope that everyone out there who's reading this has found the very same. True happiness is just something money can't buy, along with good health, family and friends.


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## Locket

caboodles said:


> First of all, it's just money. Money comes and money goes... And I believe we can all agree on that.
> 
> Secondly, the price someone pays for a dog truly is irrelevant when you think of all the expenses a poodle costs in its lifetime, in terms of food, vet, grooming, accessories. It all adds up way beyond the initial purchase price. it's not like a computer where it's a one time fee and you know what you're buying. Every animal is unique!
> 
> Thirdly, does it really matter how much someone pays for something that means the world to them? I'm sure if you conducted a survey to all the people here on the value of their poodle, they wouldn't be able to provide you with a figure.. Quite frankly because there is no figure to negotiate. Their poodles are worth more than words can describe, and I can only hope that everyone out there who's reading this has found the very same. True happiness is just something money can't buy, along with good health, family and friends.


The thing is that it is not just money. When breeding dogs, or any living creature for that matter, the focus should be exclusively on the health and well being on the animals and offspring.
Secondly, the price matters because their "customers" are led to believe the cost is justified because they are buying incredibly well bred specimens. If I paid $2500+ for a dog when most other breeders are selling for a thousand dollars less, I would expect nothing but the best. I fail to see how a pup out of a dam and sire that have no health testing, no confirmation or performance titles, and are treated like breeding machines can be considered the best of the best. 

I do not doubt that many customers are happy with their dogs, but I also HIGHLY doubt that if they were to buy a poodle from a reputable breeder that health tests, does more with their dogs than just breed them and paid $1000 less, they would realize that they got ripped off big time.


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## Tessa's Dad

caboodles said:


> *First of all, it's just money.* Money comes and money goes... And I believe we can all agree on that.
> 
> Secondly, *the price someone pays for a dog truly is irrelevant when you think of all the expenses a poodle costs in its lifetime,* in terms of food, *vet,* grooming, accessories. It all adds up way beyond the initial purchase price. _it's* not like a computer *where it's a one time fee and you know what you're buying. Every animal is unique!_
> 
> Thirdly, *does it really matter how much someone pays for something that means the world to them? *I'm sure if you conducted a survey to all the people here on the value of their poodle, they wouldn't be able to provide you with a figure.. Quite frankly because there is no figure to negotiate. *Their poodles are worth more than words can describe,* and I can only hope that everyone out there who's reading this has found the very same. *True happiness is just something money can't buy*, along with good health, family and friends.


Please note that I am somewhat "stirring the pot" here to get people thinking logically. See note at bottom of message.

Locket summed a lot of this up very nicely, above. 

I don't really like the phrase: "*It's just money*". To Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, "It's just money". To a family of 4 with a family income of, say $30,000, buying a $2600 dog is 8.7% of the annual family income. (I doubt a family with this income would buy a $2,600 dog but this just shows an example.) 

*the price someone pays for a dog truly is irrelevant*

I'm not so sure about that. Again, if you have the income of Gates or Buffett, it's probably true. But for the "average joe or jane" this has certain caveats. You mentioned several expenses. Food & grooming are impossible to avoid with any pet at any price. But "Vet" is a bit different. 

Vets are not cheap. Some people buy poodles and their pet goes through their entire life with almost no vet expenses other than maybe vaccinations. Others, run into Addison's disease, Epilepsy, Hip Dysplasia (causing the dog pain), etc. etc. Not cheap to deal with. Paying $1,000 LESS for the dog in the first place, leaves a lot of money for spending on vet expenses if necessary. (Not that you bank the difference when you buy the dog but, you saved it at the time.)

As locket implied, if you pay a premium price for a product, you expect a premium product for the price. If I pay for a BMW, I expect a BMW along with the quality and engineering that goes with it. I don't expect to have trouble with it and then find someone put a fake BMW body on an Oldsmobile when I go to fix it. (ie: Lesser quality than what I paid for but, still a good car.)

Even worse, I don't expect to find someone put a fake BMW body on it and there's a basic Chevy Cobalt hidden underneath. (A LOT less quality than what I paid for.)

The point of the analogies is that if you know that the breeder does no health testing of any kind on their dogs, then you should also know you can buy dogs like that from dozens of breeders for a fraction of the price. (You can buy registered SPOOS in upstate NY for $500 to $600. Just look on eBay Classifieds.)

I'm not trying to pick on you. I'm just clarifying what, in my mind, people *should *be looking at when buying a dog. 

After the fact, there is no denying that you can't put a price on the joy and happiness your dog will bring you and, you wouldn't part with that dog for anything. But before buying your dog, you have no idea what you are getting into, and whether you will have happiness or not.

There are members here who will tell you about their sorrow of finding their dog is severely ill. I can't speak for them but I know that if it happened to me, and I paid $600 for my dog, I would not feel nearly as bad about it as I would if I paid $2600 and had that trouble. 

Sorry if this sounds like it's "all about money" but it's really all about value and quality. You pay more for a dog from a breeder who does all the testing to try and weed out health problems. (No guarantee you won't have problems but better than no testing.) But you don't pay _*that *_much more. And I certainly wouldn't pay that much for a dog with an untested ancestry, that I can buy for $600 elsewhere. I just can't believe people would fork over that kind of money without researching it a bit first. 

I'm just sayin'....

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NOTE: I could easily write off any discussion in this thread as "not my problem" because it's really not. Pendragon is a company operating, I would HOPE, with the intention of making money. Companies that don't work this way tend to end up bankrupt at some point in the future. And, I really don't care how many dogs they produce. It is their right, in a free economy, to operate a business, create or sell a product (I mean no disrespect with that word in this case because I know I'm talking about live animals) and to sell that product for whatever their market will pay. 
Some people can, and do, buy Kirby Vacuum Cleaners and Saladmaster Cookware.










I'm not one of them.


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## spoospirit

_I have to say, Tessa, that you summed it up very well.

I bought a pup from untested parents in NY for $850. I got what I paid for. For those who know her, I am speaking of Taffy. She was my love/heartdog. She also had a short legs with a very long body (hence our tendency to lovingly refer to her as a train), her skull was round and her eyes round and large, her lips hung lower than her bottom jaw like a hound, her pigment went off, she was somewhat flat footed. She is the most beautiful color of red apricot that looks like spun gold, but her coat was much straighter than it should be and thinner. I loved her despite all of her faults. 

Then came the OFA hip test. She did not pass! As we breed standards and had other dogs that we had to put our time and limited funds into, I had to re-home her. She is now living in a lovely home with toy poodles and plenty of love and care. I miss her every day.

We bred one of our foundation bitches this year to a champion poodle from good lines. She produced a high quality litter. Both the bitch and dog are fully health tested and both scored good on their OFA hip test. We sold our puppies nearly fully trained, socialized, with a health guarantee for $1,200; not a whole lot more than we paid for Taffy.

My point is, you need to look at a whole lot more than how much you are paying for a puppy. $2,400 puppies out of non-tested parents are just as likely to get you a dog like Taffy as paying $500 for one. 

The goal is and should always be to support breeders who are breeding to the standard set forth by the PCA and who are testing their dogs for the known poodle diseases and for good hips. 

Putting all these puppies with an uncertain future on the ground is not commendable in any way and should not be supported. Who knows how many of these pups have/are going to have health issues and hip problems that will cause them pain for as long as they live and their owners pain and heartache perhaps for the rest of their lives. This is not acceptable to me._


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## Tessa's Dad

spoospirit said:


> _I have to say, Tessa, that you summed it up very well.
> 
> I bought a pup from untested parents in NY for $850. I got what I paid for. For those who know her, I am speaking of Taffy. She was my love/heartdog. She also had a short legs with a very long body (hence our tendency to lovingly refer to her as a train), her skull was round and her eyes round and large, her lips hung lower than her bottom jaw like a hound, her pigment went off, she was somewhat flat footed. She is the most beautiful color of red apricot that looks like spun gold, but her coat was much straighter than it should be and thinner. I loved her despite all of her faults.
> 
> Then came the OFA hip test. She did not pass! As we breed standards and had other dogs that we had to put our time and limited funds into, I had to re-home her. She is now living in a lovely home with toy poodles and plenty of love and care. I miss her every day.
> 
> We bred one of our foundation bitches this year to a champion poodle from good lines. She produced a high quality litter. Both the bitch and dog are fully health tested and both scored good on their OFA hip test. We sold our puppies nearly fully trained, socialized, with a health guarantee for $1,200; not a whole lot more than we paid for Taffy.
> 
> My point is, you need to look at a whole lot more than how much you are paying for a puppy. $2,400 puppies out of non-tested parents are just as likely to get you a dog like Taffy as paying $500 for one.
> 
> The goal is and should always be to support breeders who are breeding to the standard set forth by the PCA and who are testing their dogs for the known poodle diseases and for good hips.
> 
> Putting all these puppies with an uncertain future on the ground is not commendable in any way and should not be supported. Who knows how many of these pups have/are going to have health issues and hip problems that will cause them pain for as long as they live and their owners pain and heartache perhaps for the rest of their lives. This is not acceptable to me._


Sometimes price is not a factor. I can imagine some of you going "How COULD you" but, many years ago, I bought a SPOO pup from a kid selling them out of a box at a local livestock auction barn. The boy had a bit of information including the mother (their family dog) with him, and a picture of the alleged father. (Their neighbors family dog...) Admittedly, the kid could have been BS'ing me. His folks were up in the bleachers watching the auction. He was about 12 or 13 I'd guess. 

He was asking $300 for one. I had the cash on me and picked out a nice white male and took him home with me. He clearly is a SPOO. And he was our first. There's not a hint of anything else in him. He has beautiful "conformation", the right proportions. Nice solid coat. He's a great looking SPOO. I clip him myself and I do my own vaccinations. (Have a farm so I just buy the dog stuff with the cattle meds.) He has been my son's dog since the day I bought him in the house. And my son is clearly "his". He even sleeps with my son. (And he weighs around 90 pounds.)

Aside from food, clipper blades, and vaccinations at about $3 a shot, I have not spent one cent on him at the vet since the day I brought him home. He's 13 years old now and still in great health. 

I've had other spoo's I've spent several times that amount buying where I've spent a lot of money on vet bills. One of them with a so-called guarantee. (Gotta' read those guarantees carefully.)

By the way, I don't count "dumbness" as normal expenses on a dog. Stealing one of the neighbors chickens and me having to replace it ($6) is not an expense. It's just part of having a dog. 


You just never know when you buy a dog. We can try to avoid all the potential health problems but sometimes you just end up unlucky.


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## spoospirit

Tessa's Dad said:


> Sometimes price is not a factor. I can imagine some of you going "How COULD you" but, many years ago, I bought a SPOO pup from a kid selling them out of a box at a local livestock auction barn. The boy had a bit of information including the mother (their family dog) with him, and a picture of the alleged father. (Their neighbors family dog...) Admittedly, the kid could have been BS'ing me. His folks were up in the bleachers watching the auction. He was about 12 or 13 I'd guess.
> 
> He was asking $300 for one. I had the cash on me and picked out a nice white male and took him home with me. He clearly is a SPOO. And he was our first. There's not a hint of anything else in him. He has beautiful "conformation", the right proportions. Nice solid coat. He's a great looking SPOO. I clip him myself and I do my own vaccinations. (Have a farm so I just buy the dog stuff with the cattle meds.) He has been my son's dog since the day I bought him in the house. And my son is clearly "his". He even sleeps with my son.
> 
> Aside from food, clipper blades, and vaccinations at about $3 a shot, I have not spent one cent on him at the vet since the day I brought him home. He's 13 years old now and still in great health.
> 
> I've had other spoo's I've spent several times that amount buying where I've spent a lot of money on vet bills. One of them with a so-called guarantee. (Gotta' read those guarantees carefully.)
> 
> By the way, I don't count "dumbness" as normal expenses on a dog. Stealing one of the neighbors chickens and me having to replace it ($6) is not an expense. It's just part of having a dog.
> 
> 
> You just never know when you buy a dog. We can try to avoid all the potential health problems but sometimes you just end up unlucky.



_I didn't mean to imply that you cannot get a good, healthy dog even for free. I'm happy for you that you did get lucky with choosing your first spoo. And I do not dispute the fact that even from the best tested parents, health issues can emerge in their get. I'm sorry if you took my post the wrong way._


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## Tessa's Dad

spoospirit said:


> _*I didn't mean to imply* that you cannot get a good, healthy dog even for free. I'm happy for you that you did get lucky with choosing your first spoo. And I do not dispute the fact that even from the best tested parents, health issues can emerge in their get. I'm sorry if you took my post the wrong way._


I never thought that for a second, spoo! 

Your post was just fine. No worries at all!

I feel the same way. I was just pointing out that sometimes you get lucky with a good dog at a cheap price. I lucked out with mine considering the way I bought him.


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## BambiDog

*Wow... That was long!*

Fluffyspoos - Old Spice Man FTW!

I think it was Leoonie who commented about a programme in the UK (it was many pages ago...)

There's a series on Sky 3 at the moment called "Dog Breeder Extraordinaire".

I was looking forward to seeing some beautiful poodles on TV! But they chose Pendragon Poodles as the breeder.... I was just so disappointed. "We believe in home quality not show quality". They don't do ANYTHING with their dogs and they're all poorly (not) groomed. No health testing... No records of any kind. No better than the woman I bought Bambi from. She was a lovely person, but doing it all wrong (I know now thanks to PF). 
I don't really understand why they were the chosen breeder... No wonder the majority of people remain ignorant about finding a puppy.

In fact, all of the breeders on that programme so far haven't met the criteria of reputable breeder. The only good thing I've seen was a woman who bred Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers who did hunting competitions with them.


Sorry to bring this thread up again. I felt the need to comment having watched the show. I bet Dave loved every minute of it....

The whole series is a load of rubbish. I've seen 3 episodes.


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