# Breeders in NJ



## AgilityIG

It's not New Jersey, but Connecticut is pretty close... this is one of the breeders I was looking at when I got Vinnie:

Songbird Poodles: HOME


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## Chagall's mom

I know of a GREAT breeder in Hackettstown, New Jersey: Cabryn Poodles, Carolyn O'Rourke, breeder. She has toys, minis and standards. My silver mini boy is from Cabryn and he's terrific in every way. The website is:

cabrynpoodles.com
Phone # 908-852-3299

Carolyn told me she's bringing some poodles to a customer over in Russia and she may be away now, but she is VERY good and prompt in responding to inquiries. And yes, another forum member, Eliza, recently got a 5 month old black male mini, Beau,from Cabryn.


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## Skye

Chagall's mom said:


> I know of a GREAT breeder in Hackettstown, New Jersey: Cabryn Poodles, Carolyn O'Rourke, breeder. She has toys, minis and standards. My silver mini boy is from Cabryn and he's terrific in every way. The website is:
> 
> cabrynpoodles.com
> Phone # 908-852-3299
> 
> Carolyn told me she's bringing some poodles to a customer over in Russia and she may be away now, but she is VERY good and prompt in responding to inquiries. And yes, another forum member, Eliza, recently got a 5 month old black male mini, Beau,from Cabryn.


Thank you, this is it! I remember the thread from the other day...I will pass this along, and keep them in mind for myself, as well!


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## 1Jurisdiva

Thank you Skye, AgilityIG, and Chagall's Mom!

The Songbird website has some amazing performance action shots, and Cabryn's poodles are so lovely (not to mention that I have always thought Chagall was a silver dream boy). I will definitely keep these at the top of my list.

Cindy


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## Skye

AgilityIG said:


> It's not New Jersey, but Connecticut is pretty close... this is one of the breeders I was looking at when I got Vinnie:
> 
> Songbird Poodles: HOME


Where did you get Vinnie? I was looking at a site with the Kleinpudels the other day. Is Vinnie your avatar?


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## AgilityIG

Skye said:


> Where did you get Vinnie? I was looking at a site with the Kleinpudels the other day. Is Vinnie your avatar?


Yep - Vinnie is my avatar. He came from Karin Benker - Karbit Poodles - she is in Oregon (but will be moving to Nevada). I would not hesitate to get a dog from her again. I have seen/heard about many of her dogs and they are fantastic performance dogs and have wonderful temperaments. I live in Iowa and flew Vinnie to Chicago (direct flight) and then drove to Chicago to pick him up. 

Karin's site: Karbit Poodles


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## Poodlelvr

I would like to add a word of caution to the glowing recommendations for Cabryn poodles. Unfortunately, I did not have the happy experience that some of you have had. I am strictly a pet owner--not a breeder myself. Nor am I a breeder basher.

This is what I experienced. In September of 2001, I had to say a last good-by to my 16-year-old mini poodle. In October of 2001 I contacted Cabryn about finding a new poodle. I wanted another mini, because that is what I had always had. Carolyn was quick to respond and invited me to see a 14-week-old black male that was ready to go. She also stated that she had a 4-week-old silver mini and a 4-week old black mini. I drove to Hackettstown to see the puppies. The older black male had just been groomed and fluffed. He was gorgeous. Unfortunately, he wanted nothing to do with me. I couldn't engage him in play. When I picked him up at Carolyn's suggestion, he tried to jump out of my arms. I put him down before he could hurt himself and moved on to look at the silver mini. He was so cute, and lovable, I thought he was worth the wait. There was no mention of health testing of parents, and I didn't question it as I had gotten my previous poodle 16 years before. Merlin, as I named him, was the only puppy in his litter. While I was there, I was also shown an apricot toy female who was probably going to be large. So there were puppies from at least four different litters there in the toy and mini size at that time. Again this was not a cause of alarm for me.

I picked up Merlin two weeks later, as it turned out that he was six weeks old, not four weeks. The only kind of health guarantee I got was, take the puppy to your vet in so many days and if there is any genetic fault your vet finds, you can bring him back. At first everything was fine. My vet pronounced him healthy. Merlin grew into a handsome dog--a good-looking poodle.

Unfortunately, there were other problems. I tried to get Merlin used to being brushed as a tiny pup. I set him on my lap and tried to take a few strokes with the brush. This bitty thing growled and bit at the brush. I thought maybe he was scared of it, so I put the brush on the floor to let him get used to it. He grabbed it by the handle and hauled it off. I tried treating while brushing. Eventually I could brush his head, his back and a little way down each leg, but never farther. When a bit of feces clung to his fur, there was no way he would let me trim it off. I devised a way, but he would bite seriously. Luckily he could not get to my hands. He fought every groomer I ever took him to and had to be muzzled to be groomed. I got my vet to prescribe tranquilizers, but that didn't work either. I was not a novice dog owner. I believe I was doing everything right. I took him to puppy kindergarten. I followed trainers suggestions. I do believe his temperament was part of his breeding.

When Merlin was just about a year old, he started coming up lame on walks. It was luxating patellas. I took him to a specialist and had surgery on both knees at a cost of over $2000. This is another genetic defect. He was a rotten patient during his recovery. I needed to carry him up and down stairs. I was as gentle as I could be, but he would fight me with teeth trying to do serious injury. Despite his many problems, I would never have given up on him.

At a little over three years of age Merlin developed immune mediated hemolytic anemia. In 48 hours he went from being healthy to a call from my vet saying he couldn't save him. I researched this disease and while there is no known cause, there are two suspect areas--over-vaccination and heredity.

I know there many Cabryn poodles that are champions. I hope all of you who have poodles from there, enjoy your dogs for many years. This is not a breeder I would ever recommend to a friend.


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## 1Jurisdiva

Poodlelvr - I am so sorry to hear about your experience with Merlin, and thank you so much for sharing your story. It is definitely something to keep in mind.

Cindy


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## Olie

Poodlelvr said:


> I know there many Cabryn poodles that are champions. I hope all of you who have poodles from there, enjoy your dogs for many years. This is not a breeder I would ever recommend to a friend.


So sorry this happened to Merlin and you.


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## wishpoo

Just a heartbreaking story : (((.

Any new poodle puppy buyer should ask to see all health test results for all hereditary disorders in the breed. 

If possible, buy from a breeder who does official temperament testing performed by experienced trainer or conduct your own test before you take the puppy home. 

I know that one of our members had to travel all the way from NJ to CA to get a mini- puppy :rolffleyes:


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## Chagall's mom

Poodlelvr, I too am VERY sorry for the heart ache you experienced with your Merlin. How awful, and how terribly sad! I can well understand your feelings toward the breeder, given your experience. To date, I have been quite lucky with Chagall and I hope that will always be the case.

I am wondering what Carolyn said or did when you contacted her about the problems poor Merlin had? I hope the line he came from was re-checked and any problems which might have been identified were addressed. 

My experience in meeting and getting my silver mini boy from Cabryn was very different. I got copies of the health test certs. and met the dame and maternal grandmother. I also had contact with eight other people with Cabryn poodles; two toys, three minis and three standards. Thankfully, they all had healthy poodles with nice temperaments. I've since met others and again, all seem to be well. I know that's cold comfort to you, however.

I wish you only good things with Beau and Belle and any other poodles that enters your life. You sure deserve it for being so wonderfully devoted to your Merlin. BTW, my first dog (not a poodle) also succumbed to acute immune mediated hemolytic anemia, at age 8. Even having taken her to The Animal Medical Center in NYC and having a team of five veterinary nephrologists trying everything possible, she just couldn't make it. In her case, I truly believe over vaccination was to blame. Regardless, it was shocking and awful and I know how devastated you must have been.


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## Skye

Poodlelvr said:


> I would like to add a word of caution to the glowing recommendations for Cabryn poodles. Unfortunately, I did not have the happy experience that some of you have had. I am strictly a pet owner--not a breeder myself. Nor am I a breeder basher.
> 
> This is what I experienced. In September of 2001, I had to say a last good-by to my 16-year-old mini poodle. In October of 2001 I contacted Cabryn about finding a new poodle. I wanted another mini, because that is what I had always had. Carolyn was quick to respond and invited me to see a 14-week-old black male that was ready to go. She also stated that she had a 4-week-old silver mini and a 4-week old black mini. I drove to Hackettstown to see the puppies. The older black male had just been groomed and fluffed. He was gorgeous. Unfortunately, he wanted nothing to do with me. I couldn't engage him in play. When I picked him up at Carolyn's suggestion, he tried to jump out of my arms. I put him down before he could hurt himself and moved on to look at the silver mini. He was so cute, and lovable, I thought he was worth the wait. There was no mention of health testing of parents, and I didn't question it as I had gotten my previous poodle 16 years before. Merlin, as I named him, was the only puppy in his litter. While I was there, I was also shown an apricot toy female who was probably going to be large. So there were puppies from at least four different litters there in the toy and mini size at that time. Again this was not a cause of alarm for me.
> 
> I picked up Merlin two weeks later, as it turned out that he was six weeks old, not four weeks. The only kind of health guarantee I got was, take the puppy to your vet in so many days and if there is any genetic fault your vet finds, you can bring him back. At first everything was fine. My vet pronounced him healthy. Merlin grew into a handsome dog--a good-looking poodle.
> 
> Unfortunately, there were other problems. I tried to get Merlin used to being brushed as a tiny pup. I set him on my lap and tried to take a few strokes with the brush. This bitty thing growled and bit at the brush. I thought maybe he was scared of it, so I put the brush on the floor to let him get used to it. He grabbed it by the handle and hauled it off. I tried treating while brushing. Eventually I could brush his head, his back and a little way down each leg, but never farther. When a bit of feces clung to his fur, there was no way he would let me trim it off. I devised a way, but he would bite seriously. Luckily he could not get to my hands. He fought every groomer I ever took him to and had to be muzzled to be groomed. I got my vet to prescribe tranquilizers, but that didn't work either. I was not a novice dog owner. I believe I was doing everything right. I took him to puppy kindergarten. I followed trainers suggestions. I do believe his temperament was part of his breeding.
> 
> When Merlin was just about a year old, he started coming up lame on walks. It was luxating patellas. I took him to a specialist and had surgery on both knees at a cost of over $2000. This is another genetic defect. He was a rotten patient during his recovery. I needed to carry him up and down stairs. I was as gentle as I could be, but he would fight me with teeth trying to do serious injury. Despite his many problems, I would never have given up on him.
> 
> At a little over three years of age Merlin developed immune mediated hemolytic anemia. In 48 hours he went from being healthy to a call from my vet saying he couldn't save him. I researched this disease and while there is no known cause, there are two suspect areas--over-vaccination and heredity.
> 
> I know there many Cabryn poodles that are champions. I hope all of you who have poodles from there, enjoy your dogs for many years. This is not a breeder I would ever recommend to a friend.


Thank you so much for taking the time to share this story. That is very important information! That is just heartbreaking.

We had a longhaired dachshund that we got as a pup, before we had children. Not knowing any better, I got her from a backyard breeder. 

She just turned 8 years old, and she has had no major health problems or genetic defects. But, she was not well socialized with children. We got her at 9 weeks. I took her to obedience school, and had her "interact" with my nephew, and kids we would meet on walks. She has small dog syndrome bad with all the dogs in class. They were almost all lab or retriever pups. She even terrorized my husband's friend's bull mastiff pup! 

She was pretty good after my daughter came along. But, once my son started walking last year, she was showing signs of aggression.

She was a very good dog and well behaved in every other way. My sister-in-law loved her, and has no little ones. She adopted her from us, and it has been the perfect solution. We can still visit, she gets a lot of exercise, and believe it or not, she visits a nursing home every week with my sister-in-law and does tricks for the residents. They love her.

I really want a dog that my children can play with. When I was young, I was able to teach my poodle many tricks. I do not want to break their hearts with an ill-bred, unsocialized dog! So it is very important that I do plenty of research and training.

I have time to really research breeders. I want a healthy/health tested, well socialized pup (one that is especially good with kids, since I have two young ones) that I groom myself most of the time. 

I don't mind traveling some distance to get the pup. I would rather go to see the pup with my family, so that I know how it interacts with us. I know that there are some experienced shippers out there, which I may be open to. My husband really does not like the idea of shipping a puppy that we have never seen. It seems really important to see the pup in person.

I will keep doing my research, and contacting breeders. Thank you, everyone for your contributions! It is very helpful!


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## rjen

I'm sure you can find the right dog for you. As for tem. testing remember that all the socializing and training in the world can only modify what the pup is born with, it can't give the pup traits it doesn't have nor can it remove traits the pup is born with. It does help to follow your instincts about both the pup and the breeder.


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## Skye

rjen said:


> I'm sure you can find the right dog for you. As for tem. testing remember that all the socializing and training in the world can only modify what the pup is born with, it can't give the pup traits it doesn't have nor can it remove traits the pup is born with. It does help to follow your instincts about both the pup and the breeder.


Good advice. And, I realize that dachshunds are not the best choice for children. I saw (somewhere) a list where they rated a dog's kid-friendliness (is that a word? LOL) and on a scale of 1-10 a dachshund was a 4.:wacko:


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## Evik

Poodlelvr said:


> I would like to add a word of caution to the glowing recommendations for Cabryn poodles. Unfortunately, I did not have the happy experience that some of you have had.
> This is not a breeder I would ever recommend to a friend.


I wouldn't either !!!

Poodlelvr, I'm very sorry for the heartbreaking experience you had with your Merlin. Now I'm very thankful I didn't get my puppy from Carolyn. 
When I was looking for the puppy last year, she was recommended to me. Since I don't live far I went to look at her puppies. First of all the amount of poodles in the back of her store shocked me, then her groomer brought down two weeks old puppy in his hands and wanted me to hold it !?!? I refused since it was so fragile looking and the possible germs. (By the way the sire was 9 months old male imported from Russia and very shy looking). She had few puppies running thru the store, I asked about one black male, she sad he is 4-5 months old. I was looking for younger puppy, but he was really cute. I asked if I can see the pedigree and health testing. Carolyn sad to stop by another day, she will *write up something* for me ?!?! I didn't go back.

Wishpoo I'm very happy I flew to California


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## Chagall's mom

Wow, Evik! I'm dumbfounded to hear of your experience with Cabryn. I cannot imagine ANYONE handing off a two week old puppy to a stranger, with unwashed hands (not a comment on you, of course!). And I sure can see why you ran out and never went back. I honestly don't get why different potential poodle owners have such different experiences! I even brought our dog trainer to see the pup we wanted before committing to getting him. I really value the trainer's long experience and knowledge. I can only say I am so very glad you have your Monti to love and enjoy, he's adorable! This really makes me dizzy, and grateful that me and my Cabryn poodle owning friends are all blessed with wonderful poodles. I'm glad we have Poodle Forum as a place for us to exchange informtion and experiences!


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## Poodlelvr

Thank you Evik for posting your observations also. I hesitated alot before I posted my observations. I was afraid others wouldn't understand, but this board has been very kind and accepting. Yes, there way too many poodles running around in back. I would guess 15-20 of every size and color nine years ago. I did not meet the mother. Carolyn gestured at a silver mini running with the pack and said that was Merlin's mother. I should have run also. I'm older and wiser now.


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## 1Jurisdiva

Evik - thank you for telling us your story as well. While these stories are discouraging, and heartbreaking, I also think it is the kind of breeder information that is so necessary and helpful to those of us looking at purchasing a puppy. It is greatly appreciated.


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## Skye

1Jurisdiva said:


> Evik - thank you for telling us your story as well. While these stories are discouraging, and heartbreaking, I also think it is the kind of breeder information that is so necessary and helpful to those of us looking at purchasing a puppy. It is greatly appreciated.


Exactly!


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## Evik

Poodlelvr said:


> Thank you Evik for posting your observations also. I hesitated alot before I posted my observations.


Same here. 

It's not in my nature to badmouth people, everybody has it's good and bad side, but after reading Poodlelvr's heartbreaking story I felt it's my duty to share my experience with others. I'm not saying don't go there and don't buy a puppy, it's everybody's decision, I just wanted to share my honest experience.

The sad thing is when I bought Monti I wanted to become a member of NJ poodle club to meat other poodle lovers, to learn more about poodles but when I find out she is a director I got discouraged. Even more shocked to learn she is AKC's Top Miniature Poodle Breeder of the Year for 2009 in the US. 

I wouldn't normally share this, it's none of my business, I just don't understand some things ???


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## Chagall's mom

Evik, I can only offer my thinking that the majority of people have had good experiences with Cabryn and Carolyn O'Rourke for her to be honored as AKC's Top Miniature Poodle Breeder of the Year in 2004 and 2009, President of the Watchung Poodle Club, a match judge, a breeder/groomer in the same location for 30+ years and to have so many repeat customers. I plan to be one of them. It's evident to me that poodles are her devotion and bliss. Nonetheless, your experience is valid and worth sharing. I'm sure your only intention is to help support the breed we all love. Regrettably, I've seen other exchanges about breeders on this board deteriorate into nasty name calling nonsense._ That's _something I don't understand!


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## plumcrazy

Skye said:


> Good advice. And, I realize that dachshunds are not the best choice for children. I saw (somewhere) a list where they rated a dog's kid-friendliness (is that a word? LOL) and on a scale of 1-10 a dachshund was a 4.:wacko:


A little off topic, but have to share my experiences with my shelter rescue dachshund, Juliet. She does have the "small dog syndrome" you mentioned with other dogs - she's great once she gets to know them - I do lots of petsitting in my home and I also foster rescue dogs for a local agency, but once thing that's a little different about Juliet is that she LOVES, LOVES, LOVES (did I mention she loves) CHILDREN!!!  There is a 4 year old girl and a 1.5 year old boy who live behind us (we share a fence line) and if the kids are outside when I take the dogs out, they ask if it's OK to come into my yard to play with my dogs. Their parents will lift them over the fence and the little girl will immediately plop down on her butt and haul Juliet into her lap. Juliet will lick her all over her face, all the while her tail is going nonstop!  I agree that as a breed, dachshunds are not the best with kids -I just happened to get a good one!

Back on topic... I'm happy that this thread has gone as well as it has. There are members sharing their first hand, real life experiences without snide comments or snarkiness. This appears to be a well-respected breeder who has had a few unfortunate encounters with people who were willing to share their stories. Thanks everyone for a very mature and educational thread! :thumb:


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## Skye

plumcrazy said:


> A little off topic, but have to share my experiences with my shelter rescue dachshund, Juliet. She does have the "small dog syndrome" you mentioned with other dogs - she's great once she gets to know them - I do lots of petsitting in my home and I also foster rescue dogs for a local agency, but once thing that's a little different about Juliet is that she LOVES, LOVES, LOVES (did I mention she loves) CHILDREN!!!  There is a 4 year old girl and a 1.5 year old boy who live behind us (we share a fence line) and if the kids are outside when I take the dogs out, they ask if it's OK to come into my yard to play with my dogs. Their parents will lift them over the fence and the little girl will immediately plop down on her butt and haul Juliet into her lap. Juliet will lick her all over her face, all the while her tail is going nonstop!  I agree that as a breed, dachshunds are not the best with kids -I just happened to get a good one!
> 
> Back on topic... I'm happy that this thread has gone as well as it has. There are members sharing their first hand, real life experiences without snide comments or snarkiness. This appears to be a well-respected breeder who has had a few unfortunate encounters with people who were willing to share their stories. Thanks everyone for a very mature and educational thread! :thumb:


Thanks for that little bit of off-topic sharing! Sorry, I did get a bit off topic talking about my dachsie, not wanting to have a repeat experience with a dog that is not kid friendly. As you mentioned, I have known dachshunds that are WONDERFUL family dogs. Our dog was so good, easy to housebreak (which, apparently, they usually are not?) She never got into anything, was never destructive, etc. She DID develop a bit of separation anxiety after we lost our German Shepherd, and cat. But, she still was never, ever destructive, even with that. It just goes to show that we cannot even generalize as a breed. Every dog is individual.

I also agree that the sharing of experiences here has gone well. I do appreciate all honesty. We all can take that information into account as we go on our own search, and make informed decisions. 

I am grateful to have this forum to come to with questions, and to be able to share knowledge. Everyone here has been very helpful to me, and it has been a positive experience for me.


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## Chagall's mom

A bit more about dachshunds... my dearest girlfriend had a long-haired doxy, Jenny, who lived 19 long years, the last two of which she was blind. I have never known a more food-driven dog! Jenny was indifferent toward adults but LOVED little kids. My friend claimed it was because little children are closer to the ground and often hold food in their hands, making life easier for Jenny, especially once she lost her sight. Jenny's best friend was my then-cat Emily, who was also a "chow hound," especially for a kitty!!

On topic again: I truly appreciate people sharing their points of view and experiences. I don't think life is a game of solitaire; people should respect others opinions regardless of whether they share them not not. The participants in this thread actually made me_ want_ to stay on the forum because they showed regard for others. In this instance, I really think sharing was caring. I really enjoy having people to "talk poodles with," thanks everyone!!


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## Eliza

I am sooo sorry to hear about your experience with Merlin. 

So far, so good with Beau. His temperament seems to be fine. Health-wise, we will see how it goes in the next few years.


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## cbrand

I don't know about Cabryn but there are show breeders out there that we refer to as "Ribbon Mills". These people may show, but they are more focused on churning out the next winner than they are breeding for the total dog.

Become an educated buyer. Look at all programs with a critical eye. Don't let anyone's reputation blind you to poor practices.


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> I don't know about Cabryn but there are show breeders out there that we refer to as "Ribbon Mills". These people may show, but they are more focused on churning out the next winner than they are breeding for the total dog.
> 
> Become an educated buyer. Look at all programs with a critical eye. Don't let anyone's reputation blind you to poor practices.


Well said Cbrand !


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## Chagall's mom

cbrand said:


> I don't know about Cabryn but there are show breeders out there that we refer to as "Ribbon Mills". These people may show, but they are more focused on churning out the next winner than they are breeding for the total dog.
> 
> Become an educated buyer. Look at all programs with a critical eye. Don't let anyone's reputation blind you to poor practices.


*cbrand*, As always, you offer a very interesting perspective on things. So do I understand correctly that some "show" breeders just labor to crank out dogs so they have a better chance of producing champions? And if so, does this imply they_ knowingly _sacrifice health and temperament? I'm confused as to how that would in any way benefit any breeder. What do they do with all the non-show dogs they produce, just push them off on pet homes, or worse? This creeps me out!! So I take it "Ribbon Mills" are like the "puppy mills" of the pedigree/show world?? What an awful thought!! I still feel real confident about my breeder, Cabryn, but you just opened my eyes real wide, woman!


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## Evik

Chagall's mom said:


> *cbrand*, As always, you offer a very interesting perspective on things. So do I understand correctly that some "show" breeders just labor to crank out dogs so they have a better chance of producing champions? And if so, does this imply they_ knowingly _sacrifice health and temperament? I'm confused as to how that would in any way benefit any breeder. What do they do with all the non-show dogs they produce, just push them off on pet homes, or worse? This creeps me out!! So I take it "Ribbon Mills" are like the "puppy mills" of the pedigree/show world?? What an awful thought!! I still feel real confident about my breeder, Cabryn, but you just opened my eyes real wide, woman!


They will push them on inexperienced first time buyers for full price.


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## cbrand

Chagall's mom said:


> So do I understand correctly that some "show" breeders just labor to crank out dogs so they have a better chance of producing champions? And if so, does this imply they_ knowingly _sacrifice health and temperament? I'm confused as to how that would in any way benefit any breeder. What do they do with all the non-show dogs they produce, just push them off on pet homes, or worse? This creeps me out!! So I take it "Ribbon Mills" are like the "puppy mills" of the pedigree/show world?? What an awful thought!! I still feel real confident about my breeder, Cabryn, but you just opened my eyes real wide, woman!


Absolutely! Some show breeders get addicted to the accolades that come with having a big winner or a number of successful show dogs. They churn out litters, always on the hunt for the next great dog. Along the way, winning becomes more important than anything else and I think they lose perspective. 

I know a breeder who was once named breeder of the year who is infamous for over breeding bitches (how does 8 litters sound?), not telling the truth and for sweeping health issues under the rug. She may have some great dogs, but I would not want to do business with her.


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## Chagall's mom

*cbrand!* This "bad business" reminds me of Olympic and professional athletes and doping scandals; the ends (winning) become_ so _important they "justify" the means. This is VERY good to know about!! It really is "buyer beware" all the way--thanks for the education!


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## Chagall's mom

*Evik,* Though I truly hate to learn such important things at anyone's (person's or dog's) expense, this thread had been truly helpful in learning about the world of dog breeding. Your little Monti's avitar looks so cute I searched to see if you have a photo album of him posted but didn't come across one. He's obviously a "winner," do you show him in obedience and/or conformation? As an aside, the poodle breeders I had contact with in PA and NJ all priced their pups within $100 of one another. Perhaps that's market driven, I don't know. Anyway, I appreciate you being in this discussion.


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## Dogsinstyle

" knowingly sacrifice health and temperament? "
It depends. Some breeders refuse to consider certain ailments are genetic.
There are a number of top white show lines that are riddled with epilepsy.
They may dismiss is as a non-genetic illness? I know several breeders who refuse to accept that bloat has a major genetic component.


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## Skye

This thread sure has turned out to be educational for me. Thank you!


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## Chagall's mom

Dogsinstyle said:


> " knowingly sacrifice health and temperament? "
> It depends. Some breeders refuse to consider certain ailments are genetic.
> There are a number of top white show lines that are riddled with epilepsy.
> They may dismiss is as a non-genetic illness? I know several breeders who refuse to accept that bloat has a major genetic component.


Now_ that's_ one heck of an interesting perspective. So some breeders' views are at odds with others' to how to interpret the "facts." Geesh, this get more and more complicated. Finding the right, healthy, well-adjusted poodle seems more daunting than I first realized. I'm hoping I've had "beginner's luck" and that it endures!


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## cbrand

It is not just show breeders who want to justify health issues. Take a look at a recent thread titled "Pixie".

It can be very, very hard to let go of line that you have worked hard on. It is very, very easy to make excuses and bury your head. And then.... there are always the monetary considerations.


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## Trillium

What an interesting and informative thread. It certainly has much food for thought.


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## Chagall's mom

cbrand said:


> It is not just show breeders who want to justify health issues. Take a look at a recent thread titled "Pixie".


I did just read the "Pixie" thread and my heart absolutely sank! It informed me further about just how very, very difficult breeding done well can be. The amount of sacrifice for ethical breeders is just incredible.


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## Pup's mom

*May I have the last word on this post ?*

We bought Pup from Cabryn. We drove out there the day before Hurricane Floyd hit NJ. We came home with a 4 month old, brown Standard Male.
He was perfect.
He was never sick.
He was very beautiful.
His color stayed true until he was about 10 then he got lighter around his face but not much .. he was still pretty evenly brown until the end.
He never had skin problems like I have heard regarding some poodles.
He had started to learn to be housebroken at her place, he came to our home housebroken. He never, in his 12 years, had an accident in the house.
He was never sick until last April when a tumor on his spleen was discovered, removed and he died in August, 2011. 
At home, on his bed, with my arms around him telling him what a good boy he was. My heart is still broken.
If I could, I would buy another dog from Carolyn without hesitation.


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## Rowan

Pup's mom said:


> ...
> *If I could, I would buy another dog from Carolyn without hesitation*.


BF mine.
I didn't _buy_ my silver Cabryn MPOO from Cabryn, but I got him from another breeder where he was stud dog and I will echo your sentiments. 

He has an ideal temperament, is very healthy, and I happen to think he's a handsome little pup. He's everything I want in a poodle.


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## Chagall's mom

Pup's mom said:


> We bought Pup from Cabryn. We drove out there the day before Hurricane Floyd hit NJ. We came home with a 4 month old, brown Standard Male.
> He was perfect.
> He was never sick.
> He was very beautiful.
> His color stayed true until he was about 10 then he got lighter around his face but not much .. he was still pretty evenly brown until the end.
> He never had skin problems like I have heard regarding some poodles.
> He had started to learn to be housebroken at her place, he came to our home housebroken. He never, in his 12 years, had an accident in the house.
> He was never sick until last April when a tumor on his spleen was discovered, removed and he died in August, 2011.
> At home, on his bed, with my arms around him telling him what a good boy he was. My heart is still broken.
> If I could, I would buy another dog from Carolyn without hesitation.


Dear Pup's mom:
I didn't know your dear Tate was a Cabryn poodle! No wonder he was such a joy, and you loved him so much. It's my great fortune to have a healthy, beautiful* silver* Cabryn mpoo. He has an outstanding temperament, and that's a fact, not owner boasting!:wink: Not a day goes by without me thinking how much I owe Carolyn O'Rourke for bringing Chagall into our lives. I am in touch with her regularly. If there's ever anything I can do to help you bring another Cabryn poodle into your life, I'd jump at the chance. I live within an hour's drive of her, you'd be most welcome to stay at our home should you wish to visit a litter someday. And boy, would I like to be in on that! You can PM me any time you're ready, and that offer has no expiration date on it!:smile:


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## Pup's mom

Aww, now , don't make me cry ! 

That is the sweetest and most kind offer. 
Someday, perhaps. I will look forward to at least a visit if I am ever in those parts again.
I spoke to my husband last night about my post, and he agreed, Carolyn was not all cuddly and overly friendly, she was abrupt and to the point.
But we were not there to buy her  
Pup chose us, we took him home and absolutely lived happily forever for the next 12 years.

When/if we move back to the Northeast, I will be in touch .. in only for a hello and thank you for being so kind.
Tate has been gone for almost 8 months now , it boggles my mind. I still expect to see him when I wake up .. stretched out on the floor by my side of the bed ..


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## cavon

Pup's Mom, how wonderful it is to hear from you!!

I think of you often and hope that the pain that has filled your heart since Tate went to the Rainbow Bridge is slowly being replaced with the wonderful memories of your sweet, sweet boy.


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## Evik

Pup's mom said:


> We bought Pup from Cabryn. We drove out there the day before Hurricane Floyd hit NJ. We came home with a 4 month old, brown Standard Male.
> He was perfect.
> He was never sick.
> He was very beautiful.
> His color stayed true until he was about 10 then he got lighter around his face but not much .. he was still pretty evenly brown until the end.
> He never had skin problems like I have heard regarding some poodles.
> He had started to learn to be housebroken at her place, he came to our home housebroken. He never, in his 12 years, had an accident in the house.
> He was never sick until last April when a tumor on his spleen was discovered, removed and he died in August, 2011.
> At home, on his bed, with my arms around him telling him what a good boy he was. My heart is still broken.
> If I could, I would buy another dog from Carolyn without hesitation.



Dear Pup's mom,
I just got an email about your post, I haven't been on here for a long time to see the post. When I started to read your post I was happy for you, but later on my heart stopped and tears came down, I'm so, so sorry for your loss. It must be so difficult to loose your baby, at least how I feel about my Monti. I'm all shaken up by that, I'm really sorry. I know it won't help much, only time will heal your pain. Just know my thoughts and prayers are with you and Tate.

It was my choice or maybe gut feeling not to buy my puppy from Carolyn. I don't have anything against her, I just was turned off when she replied to my question about pedigree of the puppy I was interested in "I will type something up for you". I didn't like that, and searched elsewhere.

I wish you more good luck in searching for your new baby, I believe you need that, it will help you to heal


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## minipoodlelover

Dear Pup's Mom,

I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved boy. Your post brought tears to me eyes, and I just had to respond.

I lost my boy Mickey this summer under similar circumstances, and I well understand the heartbreak you feel. These amazing poodle friends become such an important part of our lives and it's so hard to let go. When they die, a little piece of us goes, too. 

Thank you for sharing about Cabryn. Carolyn didn't have a litter at the time I lost Mickey, but I know two people with beautiful, healthy, temperamentally sound Cabryn poodles who are completely happy with their pets.

Big hugs to you.

P.S. The kindness displayed by other forum members is very moving


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## Rowan

minipoodlelover said:


> ...
> P.S. The kindness displayed by other forum members is very moving


I agree.

For newer members, Pup's Mom posted about her journey with Tate's cancer here. Her story is both uplifting and heartbreaking at the same time. Uplifting because of the love she felt for Tate and also the support she received from members of this forum, yet heartbreaking because of her loss. 

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/13052-advice-needed-very-worried.html


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Chagall's mom said:


> I know of a GREAT breeder in Hackettstown, New Jersey: Cabryn Poodles, Carolyn O'Rourke, breeder. She has toys, minis and standards. My silver mini boy is from Cabryn and he's terrific in every way. The website is:
> 
> cabrynpoodles.com
> Phone # 908-852-3299


Carolyn O'Rourke is a great breeder. She sold me both of my stud dogs and I have nothing but good things to say about her. All the standards that I have seen, or inquired, about were fully health tested. Carolyn was willing to talk to me on the phone and answer any poodle type questions I had. I was aware when I bought my boys that they were kennel raised. I just looked on OFA and there are 220 listings for Cabryn dogs. Not every breeder works for all buyers.
Happy hunting.


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## papoodles

*Muki- my cream Cabryn*

Hello , Pup's mom!
It is so sweet of you to let us know how you are faring, but I also know that without your beloved Pup by your side it must be a bittersweet feeling talking 'poodles' with us on the PF. It has to be so hard!
Of course we've never forgotten Tate,your wonderful good will ambassador, nor have we forgotten the long journey you took with him these 8 months ago. That journey made him so dear to us, and seeing his picture brought all back, the happy and the sad. Can it be 8 months ago already....

I didn't know either that Tate was one of Carolyn's dogs! The connection continues as my very first standard came from Cabryn in 1973, which seems eons ago, might I add. Muki too was an exceptionally beautiful, kind, smart, intuitive dog who had unlimited patience with my rambunctious children,and was best friend to them. We still talk of her and reference her as the perfect poodle. I think she trained us, and did a darn good job as we continue to love this breed so much, that we are waiting for our 5th standard to come and share our home and heart, hopefully later this summer.
And..I live ONLY half an hour away from Carolyn, so if you do return 'home', you and Debbie must come and visit with me too.


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## Pup's mom

I am gonna have to stop posting here, you always make me cry  
Everyone is so kind and yes, you were there for me when I needed you most, I would have been more sad and miserable if I had not been able to come here and weep about my loss . I think of you all as these lovely angels who live with Poodles and know exactly what it feels like to have one, love one, and to lose one.
I sometimes wonder how I would feel about having another Standard. Not Tate but like him, will I always compare them ? will no dog live up to Tates standard?
Then I think I should get a dog completely different, a German Shepherd or something .. but what I like about Poodles is their brains, their hair and their good senses of humor. Maybe when the day comes, bringing home a puppy that is not brown, will make it different enough.
It makes me weep now to think of it, Tate would have loved to have had a little poodle puppy to play with, to teach and to be a big brother too :
I don't know, I might have to wait until I am very old with fuzzy memories before I attempt to get another dog.

Love you all, C


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## .wesss

I just read all 44 pages of that like it was a good book. My heart goes out to you. That was just very touching and sad all at once. After reading I ran downstairs to get Jeffrey to hold him. I wish you the best and hope everything is going better.


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