# Small Poodles?



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

I know I've asked before, But How do I find a breeder who is more likely to have dogs on the smaller end? 16"-20" is my ideal size, but all of the standard breeders I know breed massive dogs. Looking at Noir poodles, and I love the size of their poodles, but how come none of the standard breeders breed smaller standards? How come "moyens" even need to exist, when 16" poodles are still standard poodles?


Why is this so hard, lol.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I looked at Noir back when I was hoping for the same size as you. While I really liked their dogs, a few things made me decide against them. They do use conformation titled sires, but none of their owned dogs have titles (other than CGC or TKN) and their prey drive seemed too high for what I was looking for. Additionally the price tag was really high. But the owner was very responsive and honest speaking to me which I really appreciated.

I agree I wish there were more breeders working with smaller dogs. Unfortunately it seems it just wasn't a popular size in the U.S. for a long time. Karbit has legitimate klein poodles imported from Europe. But you may also find it easier to find an oversize mini. Any mini litter with larger parents (14-15") is likely to throw oversize dogs. Misha was average for his litter and is still 15" and his brother went way oversize.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Ava. said:


> how come none of the standard breeders breed smaller standards? How come "moyens" even need to exist, when 16" poodles are still standard poodles?


I'm not finding the files right now but the typical size of the standard has changed thru the many years, bred both larger and smaller as tastes changed. My memory says they were around 20-21 inches as an average at the turn of the 20th century but I cannot find the reference, so grain of salt, please.

Toys and miniatures have as well. Some first person history below of some of the changes.


From Andress/PoodleHistory.org (which has just disappeared from internet search. I had to pull this from the Internet Archive)

*Alice Lang Rogers, The Miniature Poodle: Glimpses Past and Future (Mrs. Rogers was AKC Gazette Poodle columnist during the later 1930's; this may come from the Gazette, 1937.) *

"In the year 1905 the English Kennel Club separated Miniature Poodles from the Standards and put the former on the toy dog register. This proved to be so detrimental to the breed that in 1924 the governing body took them out of the toy section, and, while keeping them as a distinct variety with separate championships, the interbreeding between them and the Standard again became legal.

"In those days, especially after the war, it was absolutely necessary to revert to large blood in order to improve stock, but today it is quite unnecessary and, as a general rule, undesirable.

"As everyone knows, it was from the small or medium Standard Poodle that Miniatures were evolved, so in all pedigrees we go back, many generations ago, to well known dogs of the large variety. In England, still today, puppies are not eligible to compete in Miniature classification; this clause was put in during those early days as a safeguard against an immature Standard Poodle winning as Miniature in its youth and later growing to large Poodle size.

"The late Mrs Jack Taylor, from whose strain are descended the greatest number of winners today, bred her first Miniature bitch in 1904, the Poodle's name being Wisteria. She was the dwarf of a litter sired by the Standard Romance of Rio Grande, out of the Standard Dolly Varden. From this bitch comes to us the greatest winning and breeding line of bitches ever known. Wisteria was the dam of Star Spangle, which was in turn the dam of Joan of Arc, and Joan was the dam of Ch Arc Angel. Out of Arc Angel came that beautiful bitch, Ch Angel of Mine. Arc Angel won her first championship certificate in 1920 while Romance of Rio Grande was winning as a Standard in 1910.

"It is interesting to note that in 1909 Mrs J.B. Moulton of this country won at Mineola with one of Romance's daughters, and the following year the late Mrs Tyler Morse won with another daughter at Madison Square Garden.

"It was not until 1933 that Miniature Poodles were given a separate classification in this country. Previous to this time, they were shown in the Toy Poodle section, and Mrs Slote of the Reubette Kennel was the principal exhibitor. I do not know when the Marcourt Kennel in Boston was started but at the Westminster show in 1933 the only exhibits were eight carrying the Marcourt prefix and two bred and owned by Mrs Thomas Phayre of Philadelphia. In spite of the fact that in this year the AKC gave the Miniatures their own classes they are still looked upon here as merely a variety of Standard Poodles, and today any Poodle weighing less than 12 pounds may be registered and shown as a Toy Poodle.

"Quite recently we have taken a big step in advance; the AKC has agreed to allow a class for specials only in the Miniature variety as distinct from the Standards, and the supporters of the little fellows are very much elated. It was entirely a waste of time for an exhibitor to show a Miniature in a ring full of Standard dogs, whereas now, under the new ruling, our best Miniatures will only compete finally against the best Standard.

"When one remembers that only four years have elapsed since we had our first recognition as a distinct variety [by which we infer date of publication: 1937], we need not despair; and our next hope is that we shall be granted the right to Stud Book registrations under our own title and our own place in the non-sporting division as a separate breed, not merely as an off-shoot of the Standards. Of course we have got to work hard for our place in the sun, but considering that this year five exhibitors showed 15 Miniatures at Westminster and we have a few new recruits to the fancy each year, we may feel hopeful.

"More and more, too, do we find judges looking for Poodle type over mere diminutiveness, and this is a step in the right direction. Far be it from me to sponsor the 15-inch Miniature, but we must have substance, good quarters and "big-littleness" (if I may be pardoned for coining a word) in our dogs. Weediness, shelliness and lack of muscular development are the chief things to avoid today and they so often go together with extreme smallness.

"I hardly think, judging by present representations of our American-breds, that we need worry about heads; they are excellent as a general rule. In fact, I believe, pro rata, there are more really good Poodle heads in Miniatures than in Standards. And here again, if we try to breed the very tiny Poodle we will eventually sacrifice heads as well as stamina. Our greaest selling point just now is that we can offer a really typical Poodle in small bulk, but our market does not, and should not, come from the people who are looking for a Toy dog in any sense of the word. For this reason a good many people really prefer, as a pet, the Miniature which, strictly speaking we would feel unwilling to bench on account of a possible 14-3/4 inches of height. This gives us a ready market for our occasional big fellows - and beautiful Poodles they are as a rule. As our breeding operations progress we will of course produce fewer and fewer of the over-14-inch dogs (if we breed successfully that is) because each generation properly mated will have less and less hereditary tendency to size.

"In conclusion, a word of advice to novice breeders! Don't start out with the idea that out-crossing is good breeding. As a breed, we have an inestimable advantage in the fact that Miniatures were for years bred by experts and we are young enough to be able to acquire stock which has not yet been ruined by foolish out-crossing. Anyone who has studied pedigrees must realize what an invaluable legacy Mrs Taylor has left us, and if we will only work out our breeding operations with her examples always in our mind's eye we will assuredly be able to produce strains which will breed true and with a minimum of faults."


Additional info from JaneDogs https://janedogs.com/poodles/

*The Poodle Size Separation Saga*

In the USA, Prior to 1940 Toy Poodles were mostly white and exhibited as a separate breed with the same Breed Standard as other Poodles. In 1944 they were given the height of 10 ins and exhibited in the Toy Group. In Britain and Australia there was Miniature and Standard Poodles until 1957 when Toys under 11 inches were named as a third variety, again with all three given the same Breed Standard.

Under the basically European system the FCI, the Toy was also the third variety to create a separate size. But in 1989, a fourth size in Poodles, the Dwarf was introduced because it was common to have rather large Toy Poodles more resembling Miniatures. The fourth size was basically added to help stabilize the height variations so often seen throughout FCI countries. This change was introduced first by the French Poodle Club, then the French Kennel Club very quickly followed by all other FCI countries. So that gave the four sizes which were called Toy, Dwarf, Miniature and Standard which existed until the mid-1990's. Then the French Poodle Club again changed the size names to Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standard to allow even greater height restrictions in FCI countries[9].

*The Various Sizes of Poodles Today*

Please note that in all respects (except size) the various Poodles defined under each system should be exact replicas of the Standard (or FCI the Medium) Poodle. The 4 sizes recognized by the FCI and the 3 sizes recognized by countries other than the FCI are as follows:



ANKC, NZKC and Kennel Club (UK)American and Canadian KCFédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI)StandardOver 38 cms (15 ins)Over 15 inches (38 cms)Over 45 cm (17.7 ins) up to 60 cm (23.6 ins) with a tolerance of +2 cm (0.79 ins)Medium - over 35 cm (13.78 ins) up to 45 cm (17.7 ins)MiniatureUnder 38 cm (15 ins) but not under 28 cm (11 ins)Under 15 inches (38 cms) with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches (25.4 cms)Over 28 cm (11 ins) up to 35 cm (13.78 ins)ToyUnder 28 cm (11 ins)10 inches (25.4 cms) or underOver 24 cm (9.45 ins) (with a tolerance of -1 cm or 0.4 ins) up to 28 cm (11 ins) [sought after ideal: 25 cm (9.8 ins)]


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent info, Rose n Poos. I had not realised that the FCI specified a minimum size for toys and a maximum for standards - the UK Kennel Club used to have a preference for the smaller of two otherwise equal dogs, but that was removed from the judging criteria following Pedigree Doges Exposed. There is a lot to be said for discouraging the breeding of excessively tiny or over large dogs.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Interesting, thank you @Raindrops, I didn't know Noir didn't title, and Karbit is bookmarked for me. I'll start looking more into Minis. 

Thank you @Rose n Poos for the detailed information regarding how size prefrences have changed over the years.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

I was also looking for a moyen size or small standard after seeing a moyen in Europe. It is a wonderful size dog. I looked at a variety of breeders but most seemed to get to the size through an inter variety cross which could present health problems. You just can't be positive that you are going to end up with a properly proportioned dog. Very few standard breeders focus on smaller size standards. My mini boy is still puppy, but he should be right around 15 inches. When I really stopped to think about it, an inch or two at the shoulder really doesn't make that much difference in the size of the dog. Going with a reputable mini breeder seemed like a better option.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yeah, you are right. I will have to suck it up and get a mini.

I cannot do larger, I can do smaller...


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