# Poodle Bloodlines



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Now days, I'm not sure that people talk about Black bloodlines so much. Perhaps it's because, unlike the well known White bloodline, Black carries with it the possibility of so many other colors. Many of the well established black bloodlines routinely produce whites/creams and sometimes even browns and apricots.

Some kennels consistently producing winning Black in the US?

Avatar
Huffish
Grandeur
Bar None
Dawin
Avion
Kaylen


----------



## Pooplapoodles (Oct 20, 2009)

*More on color*

It has also become difficult to talk about specfic color because what most have found is that the gene pool for Poodles (I speak specifically of Standards) has become so small that it is becoming less and less practical from a health stand point to breed only for color is one's lines. To do even moderate outcrosses it becomes difficult to stick to only "black" or "cream/white" etc. However the kennels you listed are great examples of blacks...


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Claudia...

Looking back east, what Black stud dogs do you like. I'm always on the look-out for a really great dog who is dominant Black or Black/Brown. Feel free to mention your boy.  Have you used him yet?


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Thanks for the info I was not sure if anyone was just breeding totally black bloodlines any more. When I look at pedigrees I see mostly black and white or cream breedings.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think some people are going back to breeding strictly black. In this country we have been popping back and forth between black and white so much that we have lost good black color. All too often, the black dogs you see in the ring are dyed.

One of the reasons the Swedish dogs, like the Avatar kennel, are so popular is that they have all black pedigrees and they are inky black in color.

I'm going to try and work on breeding for black/brown only. Hopefully along the way I can start breeding some good blacks. It will take some work, though.... Gracy is a terrible black.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> I think some people are going back to breeding strictly black. In this country we have been popping back and forth between black and white so much that we have lost good black color. All too often, the black dogs you see in the ring are dyed.
> 
> One of the reasons the Swedish dogs, like the Avatar kennel, are so popular is that they have all black pedigrees and they are inky black in color.
> 
> I'm going to try and work on breeding for black/brown only. Hopefully along the way I can start breeding some good blacks. It will take some work, though.... Gracy is a terrible black.


Yeah I have seen them


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

How many breeders are color testing and seeing if they carry the fading gene ?

I only seen a few color testing and was wondering if more breeders do it but just do not post such results on their websites.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> How many breeders are color testing and seeing if they carry the fading gene ?
> 
> I only seen a few color testing and was wondering if more breeders do it but just do not post such results on their websites.


Sabrina and Gracy were color tested, Izze was not. I know what Delilah carries (brown with no cream) because both of the parents were color tested.

I have recently seen a couple of breeders mention that their dogs do not carry the "fading" gene. I called Vetgen about a month ago to ask them about this test and they never got back to me. As far as I know, there is no accurate test for a fading allele or for the allele that produces grizzling. 

Does anyone know differently and if there is a test, who is doing it?


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Sabrina and Gracy were color tested, Izze was not. I know what Delilah carries (brown with no cream) because both of the parents were color tested.
> 
> I have recently seen a couple of breeders mention that their dogs do not carry the "fading" gene. I called Vetgen about a month ago to ask them about this test and they never got back to me. As far as I know, there is no accurate test for a fading allele or for the allele that produces grizzling.
> 
> Does anyone know differently and if there is a test, who is doing it?


From my understanding they do have a test at DDC for a fading gene "DD"
http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html

I was sure vetgen had on also ? but I did not find it on their website.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> From my understanding they do have a test at DDC for a fading gene "DD"
> http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html
> 
> I was sure vetgen had on also ? but I did not find it on their website.


The thing is though, they have to have a found a specific marker for this in Poodles and I'm not sure that they have. I wonder if this test is accurate in Poodles. Frankly, if it was, then Vetgen would offer it.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> The thing is though, they have to have a found a specific marker for this in Poodles and I'm not sure that they have. I wonder if this test is accurate in Poodles. Frankly, if it was, then Vetgen would offer it.


I emailed Vetgen and this was the reply 

"We do not have discovery of the gene that would cause this.

We are not aware of its availability elsewhere.

Thank you for your inquiry.



Regards,



Ann Arnold

[email protected]" 

So now I am wonder what are these breeders talking about when they mention no fading and has been colored tested DD ? I wonder if what these breeders are testing holds true (Seems to IMO). We would need someone with a bad black and see what the results would be vs a good black.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I emailed Vetgen and this was the reply
> 
> "We do not have discovery of the gene that would cause this.
> 
> ...


Consider the source. The breeders who mention this "testing" on their web sites are usually color breeders who are not very well informed about our breed. They hear about a color test and jump on the band wagon so that they have another marketing tool for selling their puppies.

It is similar to Poodle breeders who get testing through that scum bag company Ingen and then post that their Poodles have been DNA cleared for a laundry list of health issues...... almost all of which don't affect Poodles anyway. :doh:


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Consider the source. The breeders who mention this "testing" on their web sites are usually color breeders who are not very well informed about our breed. They hear about a color test and jump on the band wagon so that they have another marketing tool for selling their puppies.
> 
> It is similar to Poodle breeders who get testing through that scum bag company Ingen and then post that their Poodles have been DNA cleared for a laundry list of health issues...... almost all of which don't affect Poodles anyway. :doh:


Well I know some breeders who color test that have blacks .... I am not just seeing it in color breeders. 

I never heard of ingen what you heard of veriSNP ?

http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/animal_genetics.html


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Well I know some breeders who color test that have blacks .... I am not just seeing it in color breeders.
> 
> I never heard of ingen what you heard of veriSNP ?
> 
> http://www.dnadiagnostics.com/animal_genetics.html


Right, the Black breeders often color test to see if their dogs carrry Cream or Brown. I had never heard of the "fading" gene until I saw it pop up on some questionable Red and Brown breeder web sites. 

Re Ingen.... This scum bag company took the technology developed by Optigen and started offering eye testing at a lower cost. When they were threatened with patent violation, they moved off shore somewhere in the Caribbean and they are continuing to profit from the work that Optigen did developing the test. People should not use this company!

Re veriSNP... this is exactly what I'm talking about. You could have veriSNP run their DNA test on your Poodle and it would basically be worthless. The only thing on that list that would be pertinent to Poodles is the VWB test (theirs only tests for typeII so it is not complete), the NE test and the basic color test (i.e the test that shows if your Poodle is BBEE or bbee etc)

Whenever I see breeders referencing these DNA tests that supposedly clear their dogs of 30+ genetic disorders, I laugh. For me it is like a giant sign that says I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT POODLES!


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Right, the Black breeders often color test to see if their dogs carrry Cream or Brown. I had never heard of the "fading" gene until I saw it pop up on some questionable Red and Brown breeder web sites.
> 
> Re Ingen.... This scum bag company took the technology developed by Optigen and started offering eye testing at a lower cost. When they were threatened with patent violation, they moved off shore somewhere in the Caribbean and they are continuing to profit from the work that Optigen did developing the test. People should not use this company!
> 
> ...


O wow I had no idea thanks for the info, I plan to us vetgen since my mentor uses vetgen also. 

as for veriSNP I saw some results on a breeders website and could not understand why someone would get all of these test done? I think you are right they just do not know much about poodles.


----------

