# Docking/ears/dew claws



## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm in favour of having a choice. Those who feel strongly against docking/cropping/dew claws can find a breeder that will agree to leaving the dog all natural, and those who want to follow the standard can find a breeder that does so.

There is no need to ban the practise all together. There is a big enough problem with unqualified people cropping ears, banning those who CAN do an amazing job won't stop people from finding someone who WILL crop, good or bad.


----------



## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I have to agree with Locket here though I wish the standard could amended to allow natural tails. There are other breeds who are allowed to be shown either cropped or not with ears so why not tails. 

Also one does not need to find a vet to do dew claw removal, many breeders do it themselves and do fine. I think it you are going to do it (and you KNOW HOW) it is safer to do it in house VS taking two or three day old pups to a vet clinic where they can pick something up. All it takes it one person not washing their hands or one dog who is WAY sicker than anyone realizes at the time ya know. 

It's also a good point that one doesn't really need a vet to do ears either. Nothing against pitts but a lot of the people here who own them are not the type to go to a vet. Most of them have a friend of friend of a friend who will dock the ears. A groomer I used to work with did this. She just took the dog up to some guy and got a "fighting crop" as she called it. Basically the whole ear was gone, just a little bit of the outer ear left, barely enough to make a point above the hole in her noggin. Anyway, I have met schnauzer people who have their ears docked by another breeder, who is NOT a vet. Just banning vets from doing it is certainly not going to stop the practice  Having something like that done by a vet is probably safer but I don't know. I don't have any breeds that require it and didnt have a choice with the poodles, since both were already docked before I found them. Had I been given the choice... I don't know that I have a preference.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the UK it is illegal for anyone other than a qualified vet to dock, crop or remove dew claws - and vets can only do docking and cropping for therapeutic reasons, and - in the case of docking only - for dogs that are to be working dogs. Some people were so insistent upon docking that they threatened to take their pups to Ireland, where it is still legal, but as most people looking for a pup now seem to prefer an unmutilated dog, and dogs docked after the date of the change of legislation cannot be shown in the UK, most of the furore seems to have died away. There are of course some people who think docking and ear cropping will make their dog look "hard", but they face prosecution if they do it. Cropping has been a no-no for a long time. 

It is a fashion - and one that seems to have been abandoned without major fallout here at least.


----------



## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't think the whole practice should be banned- as mentioned before, that will only lead people to do it themselves/find someone who will do it "illegally". I think that the real problem is that standards should be amended to allow both natural and altered appearances (and that it should be EQUAL in the ring! Judges should not hold a bias towards docked/cropped, that's just ridifculous). Really, I think they should always be like that, and I feel it should be encouraged for handlers/breeders to leave dogs natural for the ring and breed for better set ears and tails, rather than just cutting off the gay tails or flimsy ears. 

However, making it entirely illegal is a bit much. If you don't want to do it, don't. The people who do it responsibly/for a reason should still be allowed to have that option. 
And can dewclaw removal really count as "cosmetic"? I thought that was a practical surgery. Especially for dogs with unarticulated dewclaws... why even leave them on? They provide no benefit to the dog, but many potential negatives.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Dewclaw removal is still legal here, as long as it is done by a vet, before the pup is more than a few days old.

We have had this debate on here before, but for myself, I can see absolutely no justification for causing pain and potential long term damage (both physical and psychological) to a dog for the sake of some human construct of what is fashionable or "attractive". There is a growing body of evidence that docked pups DO feel pain (and I don't think anyone would argue that ear cropping and taping is not a painful operation); that pain caused to neonates can trigger an increased reaction to pain throughout their lives; that dogs with "cosmetically altered" ears and tails are more difficult for other dogs to read successfully; even that docked dogs can suffer from phantom limb pain. Why risk it?


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

The concerns expressed here were also the ones expressed by the vet; that when vets can no longer do any cosmetic surgery - and she said without a doubt that is coming in Saskatchewan and probably all of Canada before long; then unqualified people will be tempted to "have a go" themselves. 

She said that the older vets, of which she is one, are in favour of choice, but the younger vets are the ones that are pushing for the ban -- the ban that prevents vets from doing it. 

I have never heard of any plans for the government to introduce legislation to ban cropping/docking or dew claw removal, which I believe is the case in the UK.

I agree with fjm -- I see absolutely no reason to go cutting chunks off dogs just because a person happens to think that it looks better. As Melissa Jackson, the vet, commented - she sees dogs with cuts on their pads - so maybe it would be a good idea to cut their feet off!!!

What about show poodles? Would you get anywhere in north America with a poodle with a natural tail in the show ring?


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

I've always wondered about this....Fozzie's got what I call a "sausage tail"--cropped a bit longer than the straight up pom-pom and it curls back over his back. (it actually looks cute and I like it). Is that according to standard? Why would a professional breeder crop that way--to make sure the dog was never shown?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We do our own tails and dew claws. My Mom did it forever, and we do it now. Most vets dock the tails far too short and they end up looking like chicken nuggets.. They do not breed the breed, so have no idea how it should look when the dog is mature. I would hope the breed clubs will take a ban into consideration and that if/when this becomes the norm in Canada, and undocked tail is more readily accepted in the show ring.

Quincy came to us from Iceland where they do not do tails or dews. I will say, his tail is fabulous, and looks basically like a very long docked tail, so it has maybe been a tiny hindrance in the show ring, but has not really made much difference. But, I have seen some undocked tails that would cause a real problem if the dog were being shown.

I am all for choice too. I will stop doing it down the road, but for now, having grown up in a show home, a docked tail is more to my liking. When I do stop docking tails, I will never stop removing dew claws. They are a nuisance and they can cause problems.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I suppose when everyone leaves poodles with natural tails, it will just be another thing to breed for -- nice straight tails. I assume that the ones with those really curly tails will not be show quality.


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am all for choice too. I will stop doing it down the road, but for now, having grown up in a show home, a docked tail is more to my liking. When I do stop docking tails, I will never stop removing dew claws. They are a nuisance and they can cause problems.


I agree, dewclaws can cause so many problems...especially with active dogs.
When we adopted our Greyhound, he still had dewclaws. He seemed to be constantly getting them ripped up. It got to the point where if I was taking him somewhere where he could run freely I wrapped the dewclaws in vet wrap.

The woman I took conformation classes from got her spoo from Russia and she had a natural tail. I thought it looked spectacular. She was able to get a championship on her in Canada.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I think it should be a choice, when we start taking peoples choices away from them they tend to lash out...and in a not so productive way

I don't buy that these things hurt the animal...being a circumcised male....I can honestly and bluntly say I'm not traumatized by it seeing as I don't remember it xD
The dogs will never remember having these operations done, so I don't see the harm in them

That being said, I like the look of a natural tail on a standard...IF it looks like Quincy's I've seen a red recently with a natural tail and it curls so far over it's back that it looks almost like a pugs...gross

And another thing I'll add, I think great Danes and dobies that have natural ears look SUPER dopey IMO xD


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i breed aussies- our dogs get docked, and short- no they don't in europe and to me tey are not aussies they are in great danger working cattle te way they do (same wth cattle dogs) with full tails broen tails are common 

i am not looking forward to this. Docking isn't just cosmetic nor is it mutilation- no more then say SPAYING or Neutering. It is done painlessly before the dog is 3 daysold. 

now late docking? that i don't agree with that tail has nerves in it- done at birth they don't


----------



## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

Locket said:


> I'm in favour of having a choice. Those who feel strongly against docking/cropping/dew claws can find a breeder that will agree to leaving the dog all natural, and those who want to follow the standard can find a breeder that does so.
> 
> There is no need to ban the practise all together. There is a big enough problem with unqualified people cropping ears, banning those who CAN do an amazing job won't stop people from finding someone who WILL crop, good or bad.


yes you are too right. that makes sense.


----------



## k8rz (Dec 27, 2010)

I can honestly say I prefer a cropped and docked dog over a natural one, based purely on looks alone. That being said, I have had a dobie who I chose not to crop because I thought the ears went with his personality. 

I think it should be a choice, and that the standards should be altered to allow natural dogs the same chance as cropped and docked dogs. I believe, when done properly by someone who knows what they are doing, it isn't barbaric or causing any ill effects. I can see where cropping could be painful, but then again so is spaying and neutering. I see no harm in it if done properly and humanely.


----------



## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

This one is hard for me... I really like poodles with docked tails..if they have great coat a natural tail looks good also but how many have that great coat? I also love the look of Danes and Dobies with cropped ears... They look totally different with natural ears. I would never have a breed that needed cropped ears because I don"t like the procedure but find the docking not so offensive, not so hard on the dog. As far as dew claws go...I hated them grooming. I saw too many torn that were very painful. it wouldn't really bother me if it were banned I don't think but I sure would miss the look it gives some dogs


----------



## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't think you can really compare cropping to neutering... nobody can argue how essential and important neutering is for pet dogs. It's not done for looks or standard, it's done for the health of the dog and dog population. Cropping IS mostly a cosmetic procedure (excluding working dogs and some rare cases of pups with it done for medical purposes) and it is a long lasting treatment with taping and setting. I think I would only ever do that once, if I got the right Dobe or something. And even then, it would take some heavy consideration on my part. But I'll surely be neutering all my dogs.  

I think cropping is going to be the first to die down in practice, since it's such a hassle and a lot of the dogs look fine without it. Dobermans and Giant Schnauzers are the only breeds I can think of that I really prefer a crop on, and even still, with the right ear set they look great with natural ears anyway. Danes, Boxers, Staffies, Rottweilers, Mini Schnauzers, etc, I all prefer natural ears on. Docking tails is way less intrusive and is more widely done right now, so I don't think that's going away soon. It's not as big of a deal for the dog as cropping, though I have heard stories of dogs with really short docks having tail/spine pain. (I've always wondered about phantom limb pain in docked dogs, but how would you even go about testing or proving that accurately?) 
But I must say, I don't see the point in cropping poodles' tails. They leave them long enough that I think it's a bit unnecessary... and none of the other retrievers are docked, I don't see why poodles are.


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

A boxer owner I talked to recently said that apparently for Boxers it's done for heath. there is a blood vessel that runs in the tail and if the tail is broken the dog can bleed to death within minutes. 

not sure if it's true or not but if I were a Boxer owner I'd sure want that option if it were. (rather like abortion to save the life of the mother!)


----------



## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

FozziesMom said:


> A boxer owner I talked to recently said that apparently for Boxers it's done for heath. there is a blood vessel that runs in the tail and if the tail is broken the dog can bleed to death within minutes.
> 
> not sure if it's true or not but if I were a Boxer owner I'd sure want that option if it were. (rather like abortion to save the life of the mother!)


Not true - Boxers tails are no different than any other dog.

There is a Rottweiler in this area that I see at agility trials. I believe she is an import and she has a tail. It looks great on her :biggrin:


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

This is a personal choice. I have dogs with 4 dewclaws, 2 dewclaws & no dewclaws & I have had no problems ever. I like tails & ears. I wouldn't buy from a breeder that did either. I think that every breeder & buyer needs to make their own decision.


----------

