# Encountered a backyard breeder. What do you think?



## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

You would need to ask to see the health testing on the parents, a vet cert on the puppies just means the puppies aren't showing any signs of being sick RIGHT NOW.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Having now seen several of your posts about your poodle search, I want to recommend a PF thread to you. Continue to proceed cautiously and do due diligence and I suspect you'll soon have a wonderful poodle pup of your own before long. Good luck! :clover:
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html

Are you the person who was uncertain about whether you had a reaction to a poodle's siliva? If so, this might be of interest to you too. :nurse:
Dog Allergy: Causes, Symptoms and Treatment


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I don't like to not being allowed to see where the mother and the puppies live and interact. 

I don't like to not being able to actually talk to the person I contacted. 

I don't like to not being able to talk about important stuff (contract, health, temperament, etc.) BEFORE someone pushes cute puppies in my face.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Why the lobby? Why no DNA test certificates? Are you sure the dog you saw was the pup's mother? It is very easy to show an adult with young puppies and claim it is their Mum...


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

My friend acquired her dog in a similar situation - met by someone other than the person she talked to, a random dog showed as the mother, 2 cute puppies were the theme of the sales pitch, ….

The dog just turned 2 yrs old and still has a bunch of behavioral problems. He came home and only liked to stay in the crate. He peed and pooped in the crate and didn't seem to care. He ate (still eats) poop and enjoys rolling in it. He's not loving, not affectionate at all. My friend can come and go and he doesn't care at all. He got kicked out by a few doggie daycare facilities already because he doesn't know any social skills and keeps bugging other dogs. Timeouts in the crate do nothing for him because he's so used to being trapped in the crate 24hrs a day for the first 3 months of his life. My friend has taken him to so many classes and puppy playgroups. This dog is well loved and cared but still, he's so aloof and he's such a slow learner. He still bites every time his owner tries to brush him.

Is this the dog that you want? Remember, this is already a mild case. At least he hasn't bitten any kids on the street. He has pushed and knocked over two kids though.


----------



## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

Good gosh! This screams puppy mill to me. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

PoodleNoodle,

Good job on not buying on impulse. It is hard to get away from such cute pups. Next time around, make sure you have reviewed the health cert of the parents and the grandparents plus a pedigree certificate PRIOR to seeing the pups.

I know my tpoo pedigree before I even met him. I received a lot of help from PF member especially from schnauzerpoodle. PF will help you find a good temperament and healthy puppy so do ask questions and express concerns here.

Good luck!


----------



## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

My first thought was, no reputable breeder would take puppies and let them down in an apartment lobby! My breeder gave us a choice to either take our shoes of outside or step in bleach water before we could come in because of the risk of parvo and other diseases we could have brought in on our shoes. Reputable breeders spend too much time and money to breed their dogs to take those type risks. Just my thoughts


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Honey, good point, when we first went to see Misha we went INTO her home, we saw the litter and the mom, but weren't allowed to touch any of them, they were too young. When we came back to get her we were finally allowed to touch. It was so hard not to touch, but It made me feel better knowing the pups were being handled so cautiously!


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I would pass. Why the lobby & not where they are raised. What are the health clearances of the dam & sire? Are they clear of PRA/ PRCD, LP, current CERF? Do they do anything with the parents or any dog they own? For all you know these people are flipping pups for $$$.


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Do you really think someone here is going to say, Sure, go to a backyard breeder?


----------



## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

Not sure if the person is intentionally trying to be saying that he/she is a "reputable" breeder or pretending to be professional. He could have just had two pets who were never spayed or neutered and had babies and decided to sell the babies but I guess that's what a backyard breeder would do LOL.

I'm not trying to generalize, but it's just for me in my experience I know in Korea (not applied since this person is Chinese but could have similar intentions?) a lot of the times people "innocently" let their dogs breed together. Reputable Korean breeders are excluded from this, but I do know that some Korean pet owners do match-making with pets like they would do match-making with people. They would post on forums or ask friends if they knew a cute handsome dog or pretty dog for their baby to make more babies with. They would sometimes post on forums like, "handsome ___dogname__ seeking a ___breed__ mate" and they would exchange pictures of how "handsome and pretty" their dogs are and just want their dogs to breed because they feel that the dog is lonely/sexually frustrated/want to get "married". I know some of them do vet testing just to see if the dog is healthy in general but not extensive ones; just making sure the dogs are not SICK (presently) and just healthy to mate more than responsible breeding. I just bring this up because some of these ppl aren't educated about the consequences and aren't trying to breed to make money, but just trying to find their dog "love". But of course, we don't know that in this specific situation nor does it justify anything. I guess my point is that sometimes people aren't intentionally trying to do things just to get a profit, but just might lack knowledge. Again, that doesn't really make this situation right. But yeah, I definitely wouldn't buy the puppies especially when you don't know the parents for sure or the health records of the parents as well. The puppies are so cute though, especially with those little clothing


----------



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

NorthJerseyGirrl said:


> Do you really think someone here is going to say, Sure, go to a backyard breeder?


He, BYB does not have to mean Bad! I bought a dog from a BYB, (the dogs were in her back-yard) and the price was slightly lower than the going price. I met at the people's house, 1 litter, both parents were present and very friendly. At the time I knew NOTHING of "Health-testing" He was a good dog, but unfortunately had a lot of health issues and passed before he was 6. 
I have since found BYBreeders that do health testing, they just don't breed on a large scale. Just do your homework ... but everyone starts somewhere. That said ... This sounds very suspicious to me!


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

KristaLynn said:


> You would need to ask to see the health testing on the parents, a vet cert on the puppies just means the puppies aren't showing any signs of being sick RIGHT NOW.


I should of asked about certs for the parents. How likely would breeders have certs for the parents and/or grandparents?



Chagall's mom said:


> Having now seen several of your posts about your poodle search, I want to recommend a PF thread to you. Continue to proceed cautiously and do due diligence and I suspect you'll soon have a wonderful poodle pup of your own before long. Good luck! :clover:
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html
> 
> Oh yes, I've taken a peek at that page. Quite helpful.
> ...


Thanks! It gives me a better understanding of dog allergies. 



schnauzerpoodle said:


> I don't like to not being allowed to see where the mother and the puppies live and interact.
> 
> I don't like to not being able to actually talk to the person I contacted.
> 
> I don't like to not being able to talk about important stuff (contract, health, temperament, etc.) BEFORE someone pushes cute puppies in my face.


You got a good point. It would save time to ask a head of time and turn down those who do not have certs.



fjm said:


> Why the lobby? Why no DNA test certificates? Are you sure the dog you saw was the pup's mother? It is very easy to show an adult with young puppies and claim it is their Mum...


How likely do breeders have DNA test certs?? It would be great if they do have them. I wasn't sure the dog I saw was the pup's mother =S it was just based on his word.. Do I ask for DNA certs to find this out?



schnauzerpoodle said:


> My friend acquired her dog in a similar situation - met by someone other than the person she talked to, a random dog showed as the mother, 2 cute puppies were the theme of the sales pitch, ….
> 
> The dog just turned 2 yrs old and still has a bunch of behavioral problems. He came home and only liked to stay in the crate. He peed and pooped in the crate and didn't seem to care. He ate (still eats) poop and enjoys rolling in it. He's not loving, not affectionate at all. My friend can come and go and he doesn't care at all. He got kicked out by a few doggie daycare facilities already because he doesn't know any social skills and keeps bugging other dogs. Timeouts in the crate do nothing for him because he's so used to being trapped in the crate 24hrs a day for the first 3 months of his life. My friend has taken him to so many classes and puppy playgroups. This dog is well loved and cared but still, he's so aloof and he's such a slow learner. He still bites every time his owner tries to brush him.
> 
> Is this the dog that you want? Remember, this is already a mild case. At least he hasn't bitten any kids on the street. He has pushed and knocked over two kids though.


Oh my goodness. That's very unfortunate and a huge burden on the owner. After hearing this, I really need to make sure to thoroughly test and research the pups and breeder before proceeding. Didn't your friend see behavioral problems when viewing the dog prior to buying?? 



The Opera Poodle said:


> Good gosh! This screams puppy mill to me.
> 
> Really? The chinese guy "seems" like a nice person, not pushing or intimidating. He doesn't seem too suspicious other than his Caucasian sister who never showed up.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App





Joelly said:


> PoodleNoodle,
> 
> Good job on not buying on impulse. It is hard to get away from such cute pups. Next time around, make sure you have reviewed the health cert of the parents and the grandparents plus a pedigree certificate PRIOR to seeing the pups.
> 
> ...


Do breeders usually have certs even for their grandparents??



hunny518 said:


> My first thought was, no reputable breeder would take puppies and let them down in an apartment lobby! My breeder gave us a choice to either take our shoes of outside or step in bleach water before we could come in because of the risk of parvo and other diseases we could have brought in on our shoes. Reputable breeders spend too much time and money to breed their dogs to take those type risks. Just my thoughts
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I guess an extremely caring dog lover would be uptight about dirty environments. But I understand as an apartment owner, I wouldn't let strangers in my apartment. Instead I would meet them up on the lobby too, for example, for craigslist. So I'm not sure if the breeder is trying to hide something or not. I'll take notice of how careful the breeders are next time I meet another breeder.



N2Mischief said:


> Honey, good point, when we first went to see Misha we went INTO her home, we saw the litter and the mom, but weren't allowed to touch any of them, they were too young. When we came back to get her we were finally allowed to touch. It was so hard not to touch, but It made me feel better knowing the pups were being handled so cautiously!


That's a really good indication that the owner cares =D



3dogs said:


> I would pass. Why the lobby & not where they are raised. What are the health clearances of the dam & sire? Are they clear of PRA/ PRCD, LP, current CERF? Do they do anything with the parents or any dog they own? For all you know these people are flipping pups for $$$.


As mentioned above, as an apartment owner, I would feel uneasy letting a stranger in my apartment. Its safer to meet in a public place. But I understand it is a good idea to check out the living environment of the dogs.
How likely would thy have PRA/PRCD, LP and cert documents available? The breeder said the only documents they have is the health cert.



NorthJerseyGirrl said:


> Do you really think someone here is going to say, Sure, go to a backyard breeder?


lol, I guess not. The word "backyard" is a red flag. There is very little choice in vancouver =(



pinkteaji said:


> Not sure if the person is intentionally trying to be saying that he/she is a "reputable" breeder or pretending to be professional. He could have just had two pets who were never spayed or neutered and had babies and decided to sell the babies but I guess that's what a backyard breeder would do LOL.
> 
> I'm not trying to generalize, but it's just for me in my experience I know in Korea (not applied since this person is Chinese but could have similar intentions?) a lot of the times people "innocently" let their dogs breed together. Reputable Korean breeders are excluded from this, but I do know that some Korean pet owners do match-making with pets like they would do match-making with people. They would post on forums or ask friends if they knew a cute handsome dog or pretty dog for their baby to make more babies with. They would sometimes post on forums like, "handsome ___dogname__ seeking a ___breed__ mate" and they would exchange pictures of how "handsome and pretty" their dogs are and just want their dogs to breed because they feel that the dog is lonely/sexually frustrated/want to get "married". I know some of them do vet testing just to see if the dog is healthy in general but not extensive ones; just making sure the dogs are not SICK (presently) and just healthy to mate more than responsible breeding. I just bring this up because some of these ppl aren't educated about the consequences and aren't trying to breed to make money, but just trying to find their dog "love". But of course, we don't know that in this specific situation nor does it justify anything. I guess my point is that sometimes people aren't intentionally trying to do things just to get a profit, but just might lack knowledge. Again, that doesn't really make this situation right. But yeah, I definitely wouldn't buy the puppies especially when you don't know the parents for sure or the health records of the parents as well. The puppies are so cute though, especially with those little clothing


I asked the breeder if he is breeding for a living and he said yes. 



PoodlePowerBC said:


> He, BYB does not have to mean Bad! I bought a dog from a BYB, (the dogs were in her back-yard) and the price was slightly lower than the going price. I met at the people's house, 1 litter, both parents were present and very friendly. At the time I knew NOTHING of "Health-testing" He was a good dog, but unfortunately had a lot of health issues and passed before he was 6.
> I have since found BYBreeders that do health testing, they just don't breed on a large scale. Just do your homework ... but everyone starts somewhere. That said ... This sounds very suspicious to me!


If the previous dog which was purchased from a BYB, had a lot of health issues, doesn't that indicate that BYB aren't exactly reliable? 




Is there any secret or hidden physical and/or behavioral signs I should look for that'll tell me that the dog may have some sort of disease or behavioral problems??

Thanks for all the replys =D


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Oh my goodness. That's very unfortunate and a huge burden on the owner. After hearing this, I really need to make sure to thoroughly test and research the pups and breeder before proceeding. Didn't your friend see behavioral problems when viewing the dog prior to buying??


No, she didn't.

Mistake #1. Met some stranger in a parking lot.
Mistake #2. Met 2 cute puppies that were put in a box. 
Mistake #3 Didn't get a chance to see how the puppies interacted with each other because the stranger/breeder's friend said the puppies might catch some virus on the ground so she could only look at the puppies sitting in the box.

All puppies are cute, purebred or mutt, well behaved or not. The biggest mistake is to meet the puppies and get your hands on cute puppies BEFORE checking out all the paperwork. That's why I have one rule for myself: Do not look at puppy pictures BEFORE I have verified all the health testing results and decided that's the breeder I would like to work with in the coming 10-15 years. 

Good breeders charm you with the thorough testings they did on the breeding dogs and their knowledge and how they raise their dogs. They don't need to drag buyers in by letting you play with the cute puppies.

Oh, by the way, my friend later found out the puppy was not 8 wks old. He was at most 6 wks old. So … breeding of fearful/ill-tempered dogs, lack of socialization, leaving mother and siblings too young, being crated for the whole time contribute to all the behavioral problems. Taking him to puppy socials twice a week for one whole year, arranging playdates with other dogs and human kids, clicker training, obedience classes (he had to repeat every single class because he just didn't get it), one-on-one training sessions, long walks, healthy raw diet …. have not turned him into a reliable dog. He's better but still not reliable to be around kids, seniors, other dogs, cats and birds. The poop eating thing has improved but he still gets to them whenever he can. He's still OCD and keeps patrolling and licking the whole living room every afternoon. Intensive training plus a lot of TLC are not as helpful as we all have hoped. Genetics is a very interesting thing. There are things that are just hardwired to his head and are very unlikely to be changed.


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> Mistake #2. Met 2 cute puppies that were put in a box.


Why is this a mistake? The breeder I met up with put pup each in a separate tiny bucket, just big enough to fit them. When he was leaving, he place one pup on top of the other in ONE bucket =S


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*PoodleNoodle*: This site has lots of good info that can help you with your poodle search. It really guides you how to use your noodle to find a poodle. 
Versatility In Poodles


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Why is this a mistake? The breeder I met up with put pup each in a separate tiny bucket, just big enough to fit them. When he was leaving, he place one pup on top of the other in ONE bucket =S


Why in a bucket? The breeder should let the potential buyer see how puppies interact with each other and other dogs. How can you see if the puppies know how to play nicely with others if each of them is in a tiny bucket? Can you tell whether the puppy is limping or not when he's in a bucket?

I want to see a few goldfish swimming together in a tank before I decide which one to buy. The same should apply to puppies, no?


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Just gotta say it; *schnauzerpoodle* I :love2: you! (I will never again see Goldfish in a bowel without thinking of you.)


----------



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

If the previous dog which was purchased from a BYB, had a lot of health issues, doesn't that indicate that BYB aren't exactly reliable? 




Is there any secret or hidden physical and/or behavioral signs I should look for that'll tell me that the dog may have some sort of disease or behavioral problems??

Thanks for all the replys =D[/QUOTE]

I think my point is that not ALL BYBs are bad. The one I bought from did not health test, my mistake for buying from this person. Other puppies from the litter were apparently fine, I just wasn't as lucky. But her living conditions and the way the puppies were raised was good. I personally would NEVER buy from a BYB again, the heartbreak of losing a dog young is just not worth it. I will choose a breeder that tests and shows, or does agility or another sport or I will rescue.


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> Why in a bucket? The breeder should let the potential buyer see how puppies interact with each other and other dogs. How can you see if the puppies know how to play nicely with others if each of them is in a tiny bucket? Can you tell whether the puppy is limping or not when he's in a bucket?
> 
> I want to see a few goldfish swimming together in a tank before I decide which one to buy. The same should apply to puppies, no?


Oh, I've misinterpreted "puppy in box" thing. I thought you meant that the puppies shouldn't be carried in a box. Now that I think about it, you meant that the pups were viewed inside the box and therefore, you can't see how they interact. 

The breeder I met up only carried the pups in a bucket but didn't keep them in there. He took them out and let them roam around of course. The boy pup was a little bit aggressive in that he walked over his sister pup a few times and barked at my friend. But the pup let us easily pick him up.


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

*How should pups act around the mother?*

Thinking back, I just realized the mother hardly interacted with the pups =S
How should.. the pups and mother when act when together?

The boy pup was stepping on the sister a few times. It seems like signs of aggressiveness. 

I'm not buying from this breeder for sure although they are irresistibly cute, but I just want to accumulate more and more knowledge as to what I should look for each time a meet a breeder and their pups.


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I think perhaps you need to go back a few steps BEFORE you proceed to purchase a Poodle pup. 
Learn exactly what a "Pedigree" is, & how to read one. Learn what the "tests" are for and familiarize yourself with the terminology. Learn and familiarize yourself with "Poodle Terminolgy" 
There is definitely a "Paper Trail" for a well bred Poodle (or for any well bred, purebred, dog)
You have been given a lot of very good advice but now you need to educate yourself on what you have been told.....it is like someone saying a word that you don't know the meaning of......you find the dictionary and look it up!
GOOD LUCK!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with Molly - sit down and review your research so far, and check off each of the basics in turn.

Any puppy - pedigree, cross breed, mongrel - should be seen with its mother and siblings in the place where it has been born and raised, and be at least 8 weeks old. This is how you get an idea of how well adjusted it is to life - puppies learn a huge amount from their mums and brothers and sisters, and need to have experienced much more than the inside of a cage in those first few weeks to grow up a well balanced dog. I would expect to spend hours with the pups and the breeder, asking lots of questions and being questioned in turn, before being entrusted with even a mixed breed baby. I would expect to see them playing in a large pen, have evidence that they have had the run of areas inside and out, and that they have toys, chews, and lots of fun! A totally pristine environment is not a good sign, in my opinion - if nothing shows any signs of puppy wear and tear the pups have probably been caged, and brought out only for display. If the pups are not with a dog that is evidently their mother, they are almost certainly from a puppy mill, possibly one in a distant state or country, with all the health and behavioural issues that oftn entails.

For a pedigree or cross breed puppy, each breed has a number of known issues. There are DNA tests for some of these that can and should be done to ensure they are not passed on to the puppies (PRA or inherited blindness, for example). These are nationally recognised and managed schemes, with official documentation. You need to know what the tests are for the breed(s) you are considering, and know what that documentation looks like. Then - before even thinking of looking at the puppies - you need to see copies of the tests for the puppies' parents. This applies to poodle cross puppies, as well as pure bred poodles, if the same problem occurs in both breeds used in the cross. Lists of problems that should be tested for are available on here, and on the Kennel Club site for your country.

There are other health and behavioural issues which cannot be tested for. This is where you need to have a knowledgeable friend with you, if you are buying from anyone other than a well known and well regarded breeder who can be relied upon to only breed from dogs sound in health and temperament. A vet certificate is just a snapshot that the vet did not find any major health issues on a cursory examination on one occasion - it is not the same as knowing the background of the parents, the grandparents, siblings, cousins, etc, etc, their behaviour and any health problems they have experienced during their lives or passed on to their offspring. If knowledgeable people on PF recommend a breeder, it is highly likely to be the kind of breeder who has this knowledge and applies it - which is why it is worth waiting for a puppy from them!

Pedigree - this is simply a listing of the pup's parents, grandparents, and back through the generations. From a reliable breeder it should be reasonably accurate. From an unreliable breeder it could refer to your puppy, or could be concocted from other dogs on the web or invented out of thin air.

Registration - there are recognised, official registration organisations (AKC and UKC in the US, KC in the UK, CKC in Canada), and then there are registration companies that will register absoultely anything if you pay the fee (DLR in the UK, for example). A puppy registered with an official organisation is more likely to be of the breed and parentage claimed on the pedigree, but registration is not of itself a guarantee of high quality either of the puppy or the breeder - puppy mills register pups to get higher prices.

So - if you want a pedigree poodle puppy of sound health and temperament which can be registered with your country's official registration organisation, you are best going to a reliable breeder. If you buy from a BYB, an occasional breeder, etc, then you need to know what you are doing, do all the research and checks yourself - and be very, very careful.


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

fjm said:


> I agree with Molly - sit down and review your research so far, and check off each of the basics in turn.


Again, thanks for the excellent information you've provided. I took notes of everything you wrote and just read all the PDFs on toy poodles from the link provided by Chagall's Mom, Versatility In Poodles - Find A Poodle . My understanding of toy poodles standards and ethical breeding is increasing day by day, thanks to PF, you and everyone who contributed in my threads. 

I have a feeling this is going to be a long process but in the end will pay off I guess.


----------



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

This is how cute the puppies were. I video recorded those little guys.. lol Click on the picture to see the youtube video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJq6URHgdrI


----------

