# Can you check over this breeder contract?



## Scoots

As I mentioned in a previous post, we have finally found a breeder we really like and have 99.999% decided to proceed with. I was hoping you knowledgeable dog owners/breeders could read over this contract and let me know if it's standard or if there are any red flags you see. Thanks!



> XXX Breeder guarantees that the puppy sold is in good physical health on this day of purchase.
> 
> Our Veterinarian has performed a complete physical and has issued an International Health Certificate to attest to the perfect health of your puppy. Puppy was bought as a pet and will not be able to be bred.
> 
> Breeder can not guarantee against, bloat, cancer, dewclaw re-growth, missing or misaligned adult teeth, ear infection.
> 
> Should puppy have a bellybutton hernia (that MY Vet feels requires repair) and or undecended testicle(s) this will be repaired during a spay/ neuter at Breeder's cost and at Breeder's Vet before puppy goes home.
> 
> We offer replacement for known and proven inherited illnesses that we have screened their parent's for, and that would prevent the puppy from being enjoyed as a pet, or if puppy develops crippling hip dysplasia where the puppy can not walk, we will replace the puppy with another puppy of same sex, colour, breed and equal value, at our first opportunity, provided the conditions below are met and kept buy buyer:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Within the first 2 (two) years of the puppys life, if he or she is found to have a genetic disease as described above, that young pup will be replaced. If Breeder replaces your pup, the first pup must return to Breeder. This is to insure that that ill puppy has superior quality of life. Some diseases can be formidably expensive and Breeder wishes to assume risk at our Vet. Every breeding is done with great care, thought and research; however, unexpected recessives can be evidenced even though all health testing had been done on sire and dam. Buyer pays all shipping costs involved in returning and receiving replacement puppy. Should puppy die or be euthanized puppy's medical report and microchip Implant will be sent to Breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Buyer will send Breeder a photo of the puppy at one year of age, which will be of digital quality that Breeder can use for advertising purposes. The Buyer agrees that if at any time or for any reason they cannot keep the pup/dog, they must notify Breeder who will either offer to take the puppy back or aid in his/her placement.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Registration papers were provided at time of purchase either in hand or in the bottom of the cage that puppy was shipped in. It is up to Buyer to transfer the papers into the Buyers names should Buyer wish to do so. "Breeder" prefix is to remain on our brown puppies and "Breeder" prefix is to remain on our red puppies. All our pet puppies are sold with "limited" registration papers. Breeder is not responsible for any further registration process costs, or in obtaining any other organizations registration papers.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Contract will be void of puppy has any surgeries before a year of age, after you receive the puppy, if puppy receives Lepto or Corona vaccination, if puppy receives Rabies yearly and not every 3 years as indicated by manufacturer. If Breeder does not receive a photo at 1 year of age.
> 
> 
> Buyer agrees to provide routine veterinary care for the puppy including proper vaccinations or protocals, routine worm checks and to keep records of such care should Buyer have to return the puppy for replacement. Buyer understands contract will be void if Buyer fails to provide routine veterinary care, if puppy is sold, bred, sterilized before 1 year of age unless done by our Vet before puppy goes home, transferred or injured by accident or neglect or our prefix is not on the puppy's registered name. The Buyer will assume any further medical and legal costs involved in caring and maintaining the puppy as of the day of purchase. We also highly recommend Buyer take and graduate from a Basic Obedience Class taught by an accredited Trainer or School. This guarantee does not cover any common puppy ailments such as worms, vitamin deficiencies, any viral, bacterial diseases, disorders brought on by parasites, cancer, bloat or any illness that there are no conclusive health testing for. I, the Buyer have read this contract and understand fully the contents thereof and acknowledge receipt of it. We are not relying on verbal statements not contained herein. Should the BUYER choose to break any of the covenants of this Agreement, the remainder of the Agreement will be considered null and void.


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## wishpoo

The only "silly part" is requiring a photo for advertising purposes LMAO and to the extent that contract would be void unless it is done , ha ha, never saw anything like that in my life !!!!

Now - one contradictory part is spaying/n. agreement . If she does not believe in early sterilization of a dog and thinks that it is better for a dog to develop fully before that is done - that is very valid reasoning , BUT than why would she offer free pediatric sterilization ??? Hmmm... Since she is mentioning a hernia part and that both hernia and "fixing" would be done at the same time maybe she wants to make sure that puppy is NEVER used as a breeding animal, since some hernias have strong genetic association. Than that would be logical move IMO. 

Everything else sounds fair .

You may ask about that reasoning for sterilization timing - you have to be able to ask freely anything !!!! You have to have great communication with your breeder - now and forever !

Photo part is just plane silly LOL. Is she "new" to breeding ???


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## Cdnjennga

I know a lot of breeders do it, but I personally find the replacement of your pup up to the age of 2 years to be meaningless. How many people are really going to return their 18 month old dog if it turns out dysplastic? I prefer a refund of the purchase price up to an agreed amount to help with vet bills. But that's just personal preference, and is due to the fact that once I have and have bonded with the puppy there's not many circumstances under which I would be comfortable returning it. So in that case a replacement guarantee is worthless to me.

And I agree wth Wishpoo about the "advertising" thing. That's odd.


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## Harley_chik

I agree w/ Cdnjenga, I would prefer to have the option of a partial refund to care for the dog's care. Some breeders still do that, at their own discretion, even though the contract doesn't mention it. I have an idea of who you are going w/ and I think you should dig really deep before you hand over any money. Make sure the health testing is really being done and they aren't relying on basic preliminary health tests. Also look into other breeders to compare standard practices and price.


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## spoos4us

You guys all know who this breeder is that scoots is talking about She and her 10 litters(58puppies) last year has been the topic of many threads


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## Purple Poodle

I found several things I did not like about the contract;


A 2 year health guarantee is worthless. A number if hereditary illness do not even start to show signs until around 4 years of age unless its extremely advanced.

I do not think it should be required (nor terminate a contract) to send in a picture of my puppy to use in the aid of making the breeder more money. The quality of the stud/dame should be enough to bring is puppy buyers.

I find it odd they only want their kennel name on brown or red puppies. 

Rabies vaccinations are sometimes required by state/town/county LAW to have done yearly so this is a very odd reason to have a contract voided.

In my opinion I would look for a different breeder.


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## cbrand

Ditto what some others have said.

I think it is very odd that it is stipulated that the Breeder's name has to be on Brown or Red puppies or the contract is void.

Corona is often bundled into Parvo/Distemper vaccines, so if your vet uses one of these, your guarantee is void.

I don't like any contract that requires that the original puppy be returned if it is sick. This is nothing but a loop hole for the breeder since 99% of owners are not going to want to give up their dogs no matter how sick they are. I think it is better if the breeder refunds the purchase price to help offset medical costs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Totally agree with all of the above!! BIG TIME!!! Why do people get suckered by these people??


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## Fluffyspoos

Is this bijou poodles contract?


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## Poodle Lover

Fluffyspoos said:


> Is this bijou poodles contract?


Sounds like it.


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## Olie

I don't think it looks bad at all, and returning a pup for the breeder to assume the health expense seems reasonable if the customer/new owner is willing, some would want the option because of expenses, I just think it's a good option from the breeder.

So many breeders put the health guarantees and many are 2 years that I have seen. And if it is a lifetime - then there are many other factors that I would assume have to go into that part of the contract. 

All contracts are subject to change...additions/revisions - but all in all, it dont look bad - ACCEPT the pic thing, I do find that odd.


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## Purple Poodle

Olie said:


> I don't think it looks bad at all, and returning a pup for the breeder to assume the health expense seems reasonable if the customer/new owner is willing, some would want the option because of expenses, I just think it's a good option from the breeder.
> 
> So many breeders put the health guarantees and many are 2 years that I have seen. And if it is a lifetime - then there are many other factors that I would assume have to go into that part of the contract.
> 
> All contracts are subject to change...additions/revisions - but all in all, it dont look bad - ACCEPT the pic thing, I do find that odd.


Lets play this game: You payed $1,500 for a puppy who is fine and healthy but at three years of age he starts showing sings of HD and you pay to have x-rays, its so server your only option is surgery but you can't afford it. You contact the breeder but they say sorry I only guarantee up to two years. Your stuck with the option of putting the dog down so your out on Vet bills and you lost your puppy. Even if you wanted to send the pup back you would have to pay more to send it to them (if they would even take it) and you won't get another pup because the dog was over the two year mark. What good was that contract?

You would trust a breeder who will null your contract if you fail to send them a picture to use in their advertising? Or abide by your town law and get a year rabies, or using a blended 4/5/7/8 way shots containing Lepto and/or Corona? You would be okay with that?

If my puppy became sick because of something the breeder did or did not do I would be pissed and want my money back and I would keep my dog.


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## spoos4us

I agree


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I get the feeling there is a game going on here, and I don't like it.


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## wishpoo

Purple - you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT !!!!

Unfortunately, I can count on my fingers breeders that give more than 2 years :fish: : (((((. And I never even contacted breeders that are not very well known. However - there are some and one should seek those if one can find them.

Now that I discovered that vacc. protocol is NOT a choice in many states but a must - I also agree than that that stipulation in the contract is also ridiculous.

I also overseen the part with "color" discrimination :wacko:- I thought that she is breeding ONLY reds and browns and thus it is just mentioned "just because" - that is huge RED FLAG.

All in all - it looks that she is trying to have all possible excuses to "null and void" her warranty : (( and it is really bad sign.

I think that it is better to look for a puppy elsewhere, after all !!!!! So many things are "off" when one looks really closely in it : (((


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## Olie

Purple Poodle said:


> Lets play this game: You payed $1,500 for a puppy who is fine and healthy but at three years of age he starts showing sings of HD and you pay to have x-rays, its so server your only option is surgery but you can't afford it. You contact the breeder but they say sorry I only guarantee up to two years. Your stuck with the option of putting the dog down so your out on Vet bills and you lost your puppy. Even if you wanted to send the pup back you would have to pay more to send it to them (if they would even take it) and you won't get another pup because the dog was over the two year mark. What good was that contract?
> 
> You would trust a breeder who will null your contract if you fail to send them a picture to use in their advertising? Or abide by your town law and get a year rabies, or using a blended 4/5/7/8 way shots containing Lepto and/or Corona? You would be okay with that?
> 
> If my puppy became sick because of something the breeder did or did not do I would be pissed and want my money back and I would keep my dog.


I don't really want to play a game As there was others that were in relative agreement...........But yes I think it's fair on 2 years would I prefer longer sure - again most I have seen have this in their contract, there is NO guarantee even with testing. The picture thing I agree is off (I thought I put that^, oh well) also on the rabbies, it should be with in state requirements, period and I would point this out any decent business person would again, add this into the contract - and ultimatly, it is MY job as a potential buyer to question the things I would be concerned about and have adjustments/changes amendments if applicable. IF NOT I DONT SIGN UP.

EDIT - I am certainly NOT going to stand TALL on this contract as if I AGREE 100% - I didn't think it looked that bad period it's what many I have seen look like....to me this was about a contract now looking at post I did not read.....there's more here, so I will gracefully pull out.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Oh Ollie....I hope you don't think I meant you. I absolutely did not. I think you are awesome and would never diss you. There is something fishy going on in this thread though. mark my words.


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## Purple Poodle

Olie said:


> I don't really want to play a game As there was others that were in relative agreement...........But yes I think it's fair on 2 years would I prefer longer sure - again most I have seen have this in their contract, there is NO guarantee even with testing. The picture thing I agree is off (I thought I put that^, oh well) also on the rabbies, it should be with in state requirements, period and I would point this out any decent business person would again, add this into the contract - and ultimatly, it is MY job as a potential buyer to question the things I would be concerned about and have adjustments/changes amendments if applicable. IF NOT I DONT SIGN UP.
> 
> EDIT - I am certainly NOT going to stand TALL on this contract as if I AGREE 100% - I didn't think it looked that bad period it's what many I have seen look like....to me this was about a contract now looking at post I did not read.....there's more here, so I will gracefully pull out.


We are talking about the contract are we not? hwell:

I never said you agreed 100% and I did see where you thought the picture thing was iffy, I just wanted to point out why I think this contract as a whole is iffy and full of loop holes. 

Nothing against you at all.

BTW: "lets play this game" is an expression as in "what if" or "what would you do".


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## Cdnjennga

I don't think there's more here, but that's just me. Perhaps I'm oblivious. I had no idea what breeder we were talking about when the question was first asked. My response stands regardless of who it is - I think a puppy replacement guarantee is not worth much as I think most breeders know they will never have to actually honour it. However, as Olie pointed out, every buyer buys on the contract that they are comfortable with. The OP is free to go to whichever breeder they choose. They asked for advice on a contract and that is what they have been given. At least I think that's what's going on? Huh. Confused.


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## Harley_chik

PP brings up a good point about shipping. If you return the first pup for a replacement pup, you're out the original shipping fee, the cost of shipping the first dog back to the breeder and the cost to ship the new puppy to you. I have no idea how much shipping cost, but I've seen quotes of $300 each way, so that's $900 plus the purchase price of the dog. And you have to give up the original pup that you've bonded with. Sorry no dice for me, but CDNjennga is right, it's completely up to the OP. 

I'm iffy on the guarantee thing. If a breeder is doing all the health testing, then what more can you ask of them? I would like to think that most (who actually do the testing and show proof) would go above and beyond offering a replacement if anything happens. Contracts are just pieces of paper, not all are legally binding and even if they are, you still have to go to court to enforce them. (Which is pricey and a PITA.)


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## Olie

Hypothetical - what if's are bound to happen in any contract. The question from the OP was what do you think? I answered, and there were several posts before me that gave some good advise on good questions to ask. As for shots, this was a good "what if" from a poster -I didn't see that in the contract --- So my thing was, breeder comments were coming up and I did not want ANYONE thinking I was playing along with a game here, so that's out of the way - I hope.

One reason my BF got Olie was because of some of these wretched contracts and prices attached.......they were a joke and you can view them on a lot of breeder sites. 

I will retract a couple things in my first post and only add that the photo thing should not bind a contract. Does the breeder want proof of the dog? And most good breeders are going to have a lasting relationship to some degree with their past dogs right? So why wouldn't the photos be shared already right? Possible flag. 

Shipping, I have to agree with a couple people on this. WHY have the buyer pay? Although the cost is not incredible for small pets but it is enough. Has the breeder had to eat shipping cost's one to many times? Flag.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree with you Ollie. I am not going to be part of a game either, so am going to lurk now and keep my mouth shut.


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## Scoots

Arreau - I hope you don't mean that I'm playing a game here, because I can assure you, I am not. I am very new to this board and to adopting a poodle and sincerely had no idea there was any history with this breeder. I took out their information because someone here recommended them and I didn't want that to influence anyone's opinion of the breeder. I have no experience with this poodle breeder or any other one, for that matter. I have no experience with breeder contracts, either, which is why I posted the question. I find the choosing of a breeder very overwhelming and am very disappointed that there are so many negative opinions being hinted at when I'm just wanting to get an unbiased opinion on what breeder to choose. 

If anyone has any insider information on why NOT to choose this breeder, I would sincerely like that information so I make sure I'm choosing my puppy from the best possible breeder.


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## plumcrazy

Scoots - pretty sure it wasn't Arreau who started the "let's play this game" portion of the thread - and maybe *you* aren't playing a game, but perhaps the breeder may be playing "games" with certain terms of the contract. If the contract *is* from the breeder alluded to earlier in the thread, all I can say is that there have been several threads which have been deleted which (IMO) this breeder's true colors came through (and they weren't pretty colors)

I do not have insider information, just what I have read on this board and the opinions I have formed from the threads which used to be out here for all to see but which have now been deleted (probably just to get recreated when questions are asked about this particular breeder again.)

You have the ability and the right to go with whichever breeder you choose, but when you post a request for opinion here on the forum, you're going to get honest opinions (and they're not all going to be positive - especially if there are personal reasons for those negative opinions) You can still go with this breeder if you so choose - it's a free country; but now you know "buyer beware" and remember that if you ask for opinions from others you're not always going to get what you WANT to hear, but you'll get what people believe.

Good luck with your poodle procurement!


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## Scoots

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I get the feeling there is a game going on here, and I don't like it.


This is what had me worried that Arreau thought I was playing games.  Hopefully you're right and she meant the breeder.

I am not at all offended by the posts in this thread warning about this breeder or concerned about the contract. That is exactly why I posted it. I want honest, brutal opinions so that I DON'T make a huge mistake and choose a disreputable breeder. I just was disappointed in the hinting and was hoping that someone would come out with what the history is.

I'm 99% sure we're NOT going with this breeder now. I don't want to go with someone with questionable breeding or contract requirements or history. I want a healthy, well bred, well taken care of puppy from a reputable breeder. Nothing more, nothing less.

Thank you to everyone who posted their concerns and opinions. This is why I'm here!


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## bigpoodleperson

Hmm, i personally do not feel comfortable with this contract at ALL! I am glad you will be looking at other breeders. 
I have problems with multiple parts of it. First, it says that if a puppys testicles arent decended by the time it goes home then they will neuter it themselves. Sometimes puppy testicles arnt dropped by 8 weeks of age. If you give them time, most of them will drop (if not down by 6 months, then will most likely not drop at all). They are doing a possibly unnecessary, much more risky surgery on the puppy. Also, it is unreasonable to say that if the puppy has any surgery before a year old the contract will be void. What if the puppy eats a forign body and has to have it removed to save their life?

Also the vaccine part gets me. You are to Never give lepto or corona? Like someone mentioned, what if its in your vets combo shot? What if your dog is at high risk for the disease (like mine) and you need the vaccine? Also she said its void if you give a rabies vaccine every year instead of every 3 like the manufactors directions. Thats a load of cr*p. There are both 1 year rabies and 3 year rabies. So, a 1 year rabies would technically be according to manufactors directions. 

That whole contract scares me, and doesnt protect YOU at ALL!!!


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## Olie

bigpoodleperson said:


> That whole contract scares me, and doesnt protect YOU at ALL!!!


Yeah......to many flags. Even so, there are some good breeders on here and out there, I have had recent good breeder experience thank GOD.


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## wishpoo

There are so many better breeders out there - I usually do not keep even that 1% (since you said 99 % sure) chance when I get disillusioned or catch breeder "playing games" and not being fair or honest : (((...

IT IS hard to find one that is "all that" - honest, friendly, knowledgeable, and that does all tests required and in the proximity so one can actually visit the breeder - very long and tedious process if one wants to make the best possible choice- no question about that ! 

So, my advice is - first learn as much as you can about a breed and what to look for in a breeder and than be ready to wait for that special litter.

Also be ready to pay considerably more for top quality puppy - BUT, if you are considering mentioned breeder - than you are paying top $$$ for mediocre puppy :smow:

If you are set on certain color (red , brown), you will have harder time finding top breeder since "poodles of color" are harder to finish in AKC or CKC competitions, but they DO exist.

If you are ok with black or white , than you have some fantastic choices in Canada


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## Scoots

Thanks so much for all the advice. We've definitely decided to keep searching for another breeder that doesn't send up so many red flags. I thought there was something off, and I'm grateful that I had found this board and you were able to confirm my suspicions.


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## Poodle Lover

Have you checked the Poodle Club of Canada for breeder referral? If not, here's the link:

http://www.poodleclubcanada.com/

I would also check out the show schedule and see if there are any close to you where you could go and meet the breeders and their dogs. It's a great start.

Best of luck to you, and I think you made the right decision to keep looking.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I wouldn't base my decision on them being a member of PCC. It is quite elitist, and they would have way more members if they could not stop someone from becoming a member for no apparent reason. Some of the long time members hand choose who they will sponsor, so only let people join who do things THEIR way.


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## Harley_chik

Scoots, you have to understand that breeder has a history of making up fake identities and all sorts of other garbage on this forum. I too wish the other threads weren't deleted b/c her posts say more about her lack of character than anything else. I hope you can understand why people get suspicious anytime that kennel is mentioned. 

I think going to a show is a great idea! And while not every breeder listed on breed club's site is good and not every good breeder is listed there, it's a good place to start. If you can find one decent breeder in your area, then they will more than likely be able to recommend others that sell by word of mouth only.


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## cbrand

Harley_chik said:


> I too wish the other threads weren't deleted b/c her posts say more about her lack of character than anything else.


I didn't realize that the threads about Bijou were deleted. Why is that? Can any breeder ask that unflattering information about them be deleted?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I don't know but it would have been handy just to be able to refer people back to those threads rather than have to go through the entire thing all over again.


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## Cdnjennga

My guess is the mods got nervous about the threats of libel and slander that were getting thrown around.


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## wishpoo

Well... that is just ridiculous :doh: I never participated in those threads but was surely glad to get that info !!!!!! As long as the information was not "invented" (and it was NOT) , there were no grounds for any legal proceedings :wacko: 

I hoped for this forum to be the source of information for all potential poodle buyers , as well as owners and breeders and if we can not discuss the "ugly and the bad" practices in general in the poodle world and will only aaawee and oooooohhh here , than this forum is just a "Poodle Myspace" and nothing else LMAO 

I really hope that it is NOT going into that direction, there are so many forums like that out there :smow:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

wishpoo said:


> Well... that is just ridiculous :doh: I never participated in those threads but was surely glad to get that info !!!!!! As long as the information was not "invented" (and it was NOT) , there were no grounds for any legal proceedings :wacko:
> 
> I hoped for this forum to be the source of information for all potential poodle buyers , as well as owners and breeders and if we can not discuss the "ugly and the bad" practices in general in the poodle world and will only aaawee and oooooohhh here , than this forum is just a "Poodle Myspace" and nothing else LMAO
> 
> I really hope that it is NOT going into that direction, there are so many forums like that out there :smow:



I totally agree. If people on here can go back and pick up info from someone's web site and disprove it by going onto Poodelpedigree and PHR, I think it is a shame they be removed. If someone has had personal experience with a breeder and share it and it then gets removed, what good is it to share at all?


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> Well... that is just ridiculous :doh: I never participated in those threads but was surely glad to get that info !!!!!! As long as the information was not "invented" (and it was NOT) , there were no grounds for any legal proceedings :wacko:
> 
> :


I know we are going off topics here, BUT I thought this might be a good place to voice a couple things - wishpoo is 100% Right! 

I get so annoyed (sorry) when defamation and slander comes up in the context of the forum OR ANY for that matter. It is so incrediably HARD to prove defamation because the "victom" must show "proof" and significant loss to their business etc BEFORE they can even proceed to a suit and its not cheap. 

Anyone has the right to speak on their experience as long as it is true - when it is false, you could be going down the wrong road....depending on what was said. Breeders as any other "business" have publicly provided their information and business to the public - we as consumers have the right to rate their product. I understand that feelings can get hurt, but that's not illegal! It's jsut not so nice in the eye's of the person that it's against. 

Grant it, should we use taste and be tactfull, sure. But that doesn't mean sometimes the truth aint pretty! So long as it's true - we have a right to post our "review, or experience" all day and everyday. 

I would recommend to the forum (which I like very much) to be fair.........and consistent, because if you pull post's for one, I would assume the forum would be willing to do it for another surrounding the same content. I can understand the forum pulling some content and I am sure they have their reason's...again as long as it's fair.


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## Harley_chik

I agree w/ what's been posted; I absolutely love the fact that you can openly talk about breeders on this site. I certainly hope that there is a hard copy somewhere of those threads, as the breeder has continued to threaten and harass people via PM. They may need those threads to defend themselves.


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## KPoos

If stating your opinion in the negative on your experience with a "business" makes you libel for defammation then there would be no point in a large company like Amazon or Target having customer's rate the products they sell. They aren't their products so if a person didn't like the product and 50 other people did, it doesn't mean it's a bad product it just means that that person didn't like it and they are entitled to air their experiences out there for the general public to view. This is why we have critics and in every online store there are customer reviews for products. People want to know what others think even if they still go and buy the product and disagree with the negative opinions posted. 

The thing with breeders is that they put too much of themselves into breeding their dogs so that any critique is like critiquing the breeder on a personal level. It's not. It's a simple critique and often times not a direct dig at the person. We are dealing with living creatures here and nothing is absolute so it's in my opinion that breeders need to take a step back and truly evaluate their breeding programs and their dogs from a more objective point of view and if there is a negative critique out there, maybe take that opinion and weigh it as to how it really pertains to their program not them personally. I see far too many breeders hide or lie about things because they feel that it would seem bad for them but the breeds will never improve if people can't be more objective and less kennel blind. We all know that most love their dogs but loving their dogs doesn't improve the breed nor does it ensure that a "customer" will be 100% satisified with a puppy.


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## Olie

Harley_chik said:


> I agree w/ what's been posted; I absolutely love the fact that you can openly talk about breeders on this site. I certainly hope that there is a hard copy somewhere of those threads, as the breeder has continued to threaten and harass people via PM. They may need those threads to defend themselves.


Wow - what a shame because since I have been on this forum I have seen mostly general topics and the breeder for the most part were never mentioned. (as you seen on this one, I had no clue) And even so I never seen anything slanderous..........Now threatening, that is serious! I suggest that anyone that is being threatened or intimidated report it to the forum, for your own safety AND please save your content. This is such a SMALL forum for goodness sakes, I can't imagine any reputable breeder taking a chance like that......thats really unprofessional.


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## Olie

KPoos said:


> If stating your opinion in the negative on your experience with a "business" makes you libel for defammation then there would be no point in a large company like Amazon or Target having customer's rate the products they sell. They aren't their products so if a person didn't like the product and 50 other people did, it doesn't mean it's a bad product it just means that that person didn't like it and they are entitled to air their experiences out there for the general public to view. This is why we have critics and in every online store there are customer reviews for products. People want to know what others think even if they still go and buy the product and disagree with the negative opinions posted.
> 
> The thing with breeders is that they put too much of themselves into breeding their dogs so that any critique is like critiquing the breeder on a personal level. It's not. It's a simple critique and often times not a direct dig at the person. We are dealing with living creatures here and nothing is absolute so it's in my opinion that breeders need to take a step back and truly evaluate their breeding programs and their dogs from a more objective point of view and if there is a negative critique out there, maybe take that opinion and weigh it as to how it really pertains to their program not them personally. I see far too many breeders hide or lie about things because they feel that it would seem bad for them but the breeds will never improve if people can't be more objective and less kennel blind. We all know that most love their dogs but loving their dogs doesn't improve the breed nor does it ensure that a "customer" will be 100% satisified with a puppy.


So true - I missed this post.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Oh yes. There have been a number of us who have been threatened in PM`s or messages sent to our email addresses- for voicing our opinions of a specific breeder on here. I have saved the two emails I received and was actually going to start a new page on my web site entitled `Threats and reputation`after being warned to `watch my back`and that an effort would be made to taint my reputation. I was going to just post those emails as they were sent to me to that page. I decided against it , because when people visit my site, they dont want to look at the irate rants of some woman who feels she has been dissed, but rather spend some time looking at and reading about cute, happy puppies. I worry that all of these threats are going to affect the way this forum has been since I joined it.


----------



## Olie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Oh yes. There have been a number of us who have been threatened in PM`s or messages sent to our email addresses- for voicing our opinions of a specific breeder on here. I have saved the two emails I received and was actually going to start a new page on my web site entitled `Threats and reputation`after being warned to `watch my back`and that an effort would be made to taint my reputation. I was going to just post those emails as they were sent to me to that page. I decided against it , because when people visit my site, they dont want to look at the irate rants of some woman who feels she has been dissed, but rather spend some time looking at and reading about cute, happy puppies. I worry that all of these threats are going to affect the way this forum has been since I joined it.


Ohhhh I wouldn't post that either, I agree. I have seen a disclaimmer once very bold of something very similar on a breeder site something to what you are saying and IMO that is a big warning to move on this kennel/breeder has had some past issues. 

I see no issues with PM-ing people and hashing it out if feelings were hurt.

This is a very general comment as I am still fairly new. But it seems when a topic comes up some BREEDERS/PEOPLE are ASSUMING that certain memberes are speaking about them. I see so many good threads go South because someone chooses to think it's about them or they are being attacked. That seems a bit self centered, IDK - I guess anything is possible......


----------



## roxy25

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Oh yes. There have been a number of us who have been threatened in PM`s or messages sent to our email addresses- for voicing our opinions of a specific breeder on here.


Yes I am a recent victim of the harassing. I just saved the emails for future references so if anyone wants info about the kennel i will be glad to forward the threaten emails to them and they can decided if they want to deal with a person like that LOL!


----------



## plumcrazy

roxy25 said:


> Yes I am a recent victim of the harassing. I just saved the emails for future references so if anyone wants info about the kennel i will be glad to forward the threaten emails to them and they can decided if they want to deal with a person like that LOL!


This really is a good idea since it isn't anyone but she, herself, showing her true colors - no slander, libel, etc., when it comes straight from her!


----------



## Cdnjennga

Olie said:


> This is a very general comment as I am still fairly new. But it seems when a topic comes up some BREEDERS/PEOPLE are ASSUMING that certain memberes are speaking about them. I see so many good threads go South because someone chooses to think it's about them or they are being attacked. That seems a bit self centered, IDK - I guess anything is possible......


I think the main problem here is there have been posts about "some members" or general statements about the forum and it's unclear who they are targeted at. So speaking from a personal point of view, if I've recently been involved in a red hot thread and then someone posts "well some people on this forum are too quick to judge others" then I'm going to be inclined to think I'm one of the "some".

IMO it's better to just flat out say who you're referring to or privately PM the person if you want to avoid confusion and stop the thread from spiralling out of control. This has been a big problem IMO in some of the breeder threads, where some people seem to be speaking in code! I think just come right out and say it clearly if you're going to say it at all. Just because you (and not you Olie specifically to be clear, but you generally) know who you're talking about you can't assume everyone else does as well.


----------



## roxy25

Cdnjennga said:


> I think the main problem here is there have been posts about "some members" or general statements about the forum and it's unclear who they are targeted at. So speaking from a personal point of view, if I've recently been involved in a red hot thread and then someone posts "well some people on this forum are too quick to judge others" then I'm going to be inclined to think I'm one of the "some".
> 
> IMO it's better to just flat out say who you're referring to or privately PM the person if you want to avoid confusion and stop the thread from spiralling out of control. This has been a big problem IMO in some of the breeder threads, where some people seem to be speaking in code! I think just come right out and say it clearly if you're going to say it at all. Just because you (and not you Olie specifically to be clear, but you generally) know who you're talking about you can't assume everyone else does as well.


I agree. I know there are only a good amount of members on here that know what happened and know who we are talking about. So the ones that missed the pass threads have no clue.


----------



## Cdnjennga

Cdnjennga said:


> This has been a big problem IMO in some of the breeder threads, where some people seem to be speaking in code!


Haha, just realized I did the exact thing I was talking about! I will PM those I was referring to so the whole forum doesn't think I was talking about them.


----------



## Olie

Cdnjennga said:


> Haha, just realized I did the exact thing I was talking about! I will PM those I was referring to so the whole forum doesn't think I was talking about them.


It is very normal to do....I think I do it to NOT offend.


----------



## thestars

This is a very interesting topic and controversial as it was one that was brought up at our Poodle club as well. We all are constantly working to better our contracts to create one contract that will protect both the buyer and the seller. Some even revise based on what the buyer wishes.

Some of the audacious stories I've heard of how very unscrupulous buyers can be even after a thorough screening is very surprising. Unfortunately they will probably continue to happen.

As a Breeder, they have no control over the aspects of that puppy's life once they leave.
Do they smoke around the puppy?
Are they going to walk their puppy over pesticide treated grass or in areas with ariel spraying of orchards or farm land or chemicals like ice melts or anti-freeze? (exposure can cause cancer and death)
What will they feed their puppy?
Will they get the right kind and amount of exercise for their puppy?
Are they over vaccinating and or introducing toxins to that puppy? (they love to chew so is their lead paint around?)
Are they feeding their dogs and then letting them run? (which has been known as a possible contributing factor to bloat)
Are they jogging with their young puppy? (causing structural damage to the dog)
Are they supervising the puppy through it's adult life indoors and outside?

Buyers make choices with their puppies that can greatly affect their health that may not be disclosed in any application or through conversation with potential buyers. Where and when does the breeder's responsibility end and the buyers responsibility begin?

I'd be interested in learning from the other breeders on this forum about their contracts. Mine is available and I welcome critique so that I can make it better for both myself and the buyer. http://www.patriotpoodles.com/Contract.html

Maybe Cbrand, Arreau and others can share their contracts. 

Another hot topic that came up at the club meeting is Planning for your Pets/Kennel future in case of death or a disability. Do Breeders have a Plan for the dispersal and disposition of their kennel? (I'll start a new thread on this topic.)


----------



## Harley_chik

plumcrazy said:


> This really is a good idea since it isn't anyone but she, herself, showing her true colors - no slander, libel, etc., when it comes straight from her!


I agree completely! Her behavior here had a bigger impact on me than any documentation or member's opinion/experience.


----------



## thestars

A note taken... I've requested pictures of Roxy's first litter. I got six pictures of one of the pups at 4 months of age. That same lovely couple both have facebook pages and are friends of mine on facebook yet I get no new pictures. (I post pictures all the time of my dogs.) For 12 years, every year, my first breeder still gets pictures of the dogs. It is disheartenting because even after requests for pictures from me, I still get none.


----------



## Taxi

thestars said:


> <snip>
> 
> I'd be interested in learning from the other breeders on this forum about their contracts. Mine is available and I welcome critique so that I can make it better for both myself and the buyer. http://www.patriotpoodles.com/Contract.html
> 
> Maybe Cbrand, Arreau and others can share their contracts.
> 
> <snip>


Thank you "thestars" for sharing your contract. I agree having the other breeders share their contracts would be helpful. Not only will it give a good idea on what a good contract should contain but it will also show their perspective on how they come up with their critic.


----------



## roxy25

thestars said:


> A note taken... I've requested pictures of Roxy's first litter. I got six pictures of one of the pups at 4 months of age. That same lovely couple both have facebook pages and are friends of mine on facebook yet I get no new pictures. (I post pictures all the time of my dogs.) For 12 years, every year, my first breeder still gets pictures of the dogs. It is disheartenting because even after requests for pictures from me, I still get none.


I barely get pictures of my cats and kittens I gave to families either. I don't think a breeder should try to force someone to send them pictures by their contract just for advertising......

I would love to see my kittes in their homes but that is just how it is some times. I do see some of them but not all. 

Here is one of my cats I bred this breeder is rehoming him. 
http://www.ozbobz.com/Gabe.html


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## Taxi

Scoots, contracts are a good "starting place" for a breeder to cover their needs and concerns for someone who wants to purchase a pup. It is good to get opinions but talking directly to the breeder about the contact is always best. Until you talk to the breeder everything else is just speculation. I've talked to many breeders about their contacts and once you find out why something is written in, it may make more sense. 

I say "starting place" because if you can alleviate some of the concerns of a breeder and they get to know you better the contract can be fine tuned for you both.


----------



## frostfirestandards

I was told by a breeder friend, that breeder contracts can only be enforced if they are noterized(sp) 
dont know how true this is, and maybe its just in NC


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## roxy25

frostfirestandards said:


> I was told by a breeder friend, that breeder contracts can only be enforced if they are noterized(sp)
> dont know how true this is, and maybe its just in NC


I have heard of this also.


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## Taxi

frostfirestandards said:


> I was told by a breeder friend, that breeder contracts can only be enforced if they are noterized(sp)
> dont know how true this is, and maybe its just in NC



Cannot answer about notarized contracts, but state laws can help consumers. 

Puppy Lemon Laws have become more and more common as mall pet stores become more common. As dog lovers are thrilled to see more people enjoying the companionship of dogs, the demand has created an industry that has more than its share of problems. Puppy Lemon Laws are an effort to address some of these problems.

These are the Laws of which the AKC is aware. All of them give dog purchasers the right to return a sick or dead puppy for a refund or replacement. Most also give consumers the option of retaining the puppy, having it treated and getting some level of reimbursement for veterinary expenses from the seller.

They are listed here www.malteseonly.com/lemon.html


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## roxy25

Taxi said:


> All of them give dog purchasers the right to return a sick or dead puppy for a refund or replacement.


Well the thing with this istatement is most people will fall in love with the puppy and they wont want to return it. 

I think its silly that the contract would be voided if they don't send a picture this was the main concern in this contract.


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## Taxi

roxy25 said:


> Well the thing with this istatement is most people will fall in love with the puppy and they wont want to return it.
> 
> I think its silly that the contract would be voided if they don't send a picture this was the main concern in this contract.


I agree with you Roxy25 most people will not return the puppy but they have a choice to do that.

Your point of "sending a picture or have your contract voided is silly" is a valided concern for you. An this would be a good point to discuss this with the breeder. From my experience contracts both in & out of the dog world are not written in stone. Contracts are negotiated. :deal: You may say that is too much work... that depends on how much you want it. It may be as easy as talking to the breeder.

I believe this thread is helpful for people who think because someone has a contract they have no choice but to go with that contact. That is not always the case. If someone is willing to ask for help from a bunch of strangers and get their opinions. They should present those same questions to the breeder. 

Reputable breeders cannot survive without puppy loving people & the same goes for puppy loving people. Now my wife is always sending pictures to the breeder of her on free will. She wants to support the breeder as much as possible. Why!... because she knows that the breeder put a lot of time and effort into breeding and now we recieved a great dog that was socialized and was in good health.  We support what we love.


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## roxy25

Taxi said:


> I believe this thread is helpful for people who think because someone has a contract they have no choice but to go with that contact. That is not always the case. If someone is willing to ask for help from a bunch of strangers and get their opinions. They should present those same questions to the breeder.


I think its safe to say here in this community we do not see each other as Strangers. That being said people will come on here to ask for our opinions.


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## plumcrazy

Taxi said:


> Now my wife is always sending pictures to the breeder of her on free will. She wants to support the breeder as much as possible. Why!... because she knows that the breeder put a lot of time and effort into breeding and now we recieved a great dog that was socialized and was in good health.  We support what we love.


Cool, Taxi!! It's great that you have such a great relationship with your breeder! Did you get both of your dogs from the same place? From which breeder did you get your puppies? - maybe it will help others find a reputable breeder with whom create a rapport! Do they have a website you could share? I'm sure any good poodle puppy breeder would be happy for the recommendation!!


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## KPoos

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too. I'd love to be able to refer friends of mine to good quality breeders that maintain good rapport with their families.


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## plumcrazy

roxy25 said:


> I think its safe to say here in this community we do not see each other as Strangers. That being said people will come on here to ask for our opinions.


Yeah! I think of most of the people on this forum as my "Poodle Forum Family"!! :grouphug: Even my flesh and blood family members don't ALWAYS see eye to eye - but we respect each other's opinions enough to seek them out! I love my cyber-family!


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## wishpoo

Ok - I have seen a fair share of contracts over the past couple of years and they can range from really useless papers to really well written legal documents !!!! I can not post any since they are not mine and maybe it would be a breach of some confidentiality agreement , or something like that - so I can only now describe how the best contract looked like.

It was written by a lawyer 

It was VERY lengthy and had every possible situation covered (or at least most probable ones) 

It was very specific about what is under warranty - no vague terms "genetic diseases" and such - it clearly stated *which* conditions 

It was for 5 year period for those diseases

It did not put any burden on the buyer in the sense that BUYER can cause those defects (which is ridiculous statement - one is not going to pay 2500$ and than not care about puppy's welfare - and even if it was 100 $ - MOST people would really do what is best for a puppy - I mean, we saw first hand to what extent people go to pamper their dogs and what devastation it causes to them when puppy is sick !!!!!) Besides - no reputable breeder would sell a puppy without very careful screening of the new home !

It gave buyer the option of return OR keeping the dog if it develops disease
and money in any case OR new puppy - so buyer can keep original dog and get a refund or keep the dog and get a new puppy- OR return the original dog and get a refund or return the dog and get a puppy - it was completely on buyers discretion what he/she will feel comfortable with.

It stipulated re homing arrangements and promised to take dog back at any time and after any period

It gave 7 day period to new owner to return the puppy for any reason with full refund

I am sure I forgot all that was in the contract , but most great contracts DO look something like that !

AND THAT WAS ALLL FOR A PET . Show contracts are even more lengthy and with even more "promises" !!!

Now - as I understand , contracts are always legal documents and whatever one signs is a valid legal document - even if I write my own will and sign it without any lawyer it is LEGAL VALID DOCUMENT. Yes, my family will go through period of arbitration - by still - it is a valid document. 

One can even be held responsible and liable for a "verbal promise" in a court !!!!! So, if anybody thinks that those "papers" have no value LOL , they are very wrong.

Also - any reputable breeder would think twice before breaching a contract since "word of mouth" travels as a lightening speed !!! One more reason to deal with well known breeder.


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## roxy25

wishpoo said:


> Now - as I understand , contracts are always legal documents and whatever one signs is a valid legal document - even if I write my own will and sign it without any lawyer it is LEGAL VALID DOCUMENT. Yes, my family will go through period of arbitration - by still - it is a valid document.
> 
> One can even be held responsible and liable for a "verbal promise" in a court !!!!! So, if anybody thinks that those "papers" have no value LOL , they are very wrong.
> 
> Also - any reputable breeder would think twice before breaching a contract since "word of mouth" travels as a lightening speed !!! One more reason to deal with well known breeder.


Thanks for the info wishpoo I was not sure I only had to deal with one contract from a cat breeder that went wrong !


----------



## wishpoo

I am sorry to hear that Roxy-babe : ((( Do not forget that here is a "People's Court" for small claims !!! One does not have to have money to sue somebody !!! In the "small claim court" there are no lawyers - one represents oneself and if you have a proof (any document, witness) - you can win it with no problems ; ))) ! Ever watched "Judge Judy" ; ))) ???


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## KPoos

I was told that unless you sign a contract in front of a notary with a witness it's not even a legal and binding document. I don't know if that's true or not.


----------



## Taxi

Since I am new to this forum and I do not normally "hijack" a thread...

1) but it seems members do "hijack" threads here (talk about things that are off topic within a thread) 

2) Also I notice people cross posting. Taking a post from one thread and inserting it in another thread to get an answer they want (also hijacking).

Is this typical?


----------



## Olie

Taxi said:


> Scoots, contracts are a good "starting place" for a breeder to cover their needs and concerns for someone who wants to purchase a pup. It is good to get opinions but talking directly to the breeder about the contact is always best. Until you talk to the breeder everything else is just speculation. I've talked to many breeders about their contacts and once you find out why something is written in, it may make more sense.
> 
> I say "starting place" because if you can alleviate some of the concerns of a breeder and they get to know you better the contract can be fine tuned for you both.


Again, my point exactly - contracts are a good base outline and are subject to change - Should A breeder be willing. If not then one must move on.


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## Taxi

Olie said:


> Again, my point exactly - contracts are a good base outline and are subject to change - Should A breeder be willing. If not then one must move on.


I am in total agreement :clap2:


----------



## Olie

wishpoo said:


> Now - as I understand , contracts are always legal documents and whatever one signs is a valid legal document - even if I write my own will and sign it without any lawyer it is LEGAL VALID DOCUMENT. Yes, my family will go through period of arbitration - by still - it is a valid document.
> 
> One can even be held responsible and liable for a "verbal promise" in a court !!!!! So, if anybody thinks that those "papers" have no value LOL , they are very wrong.
> 
> Also - any reputable breeder would think twice before breaching a contract since "word of mouth" travels as a lightening speed !!! One more reason to deal with well known breeder.


Also agree here. Also if someone has a business license for what they are doing there is no need for a witness or notery. And you can take "documented" agreements to small claims court - they just seem to be a waste for many unless lawyers are involved. IMO.


----------



## roxy25

wishpoo said:


> I am sorry to hear that Roxy-babe : ((( Do not forget that here is a "People's Court" for small claims !!! One does not have to have money to sue somebody !!! In the "small claim court" there are no lawyers - one represents oneself and if you have a proof (any document, witness) - you can win it with no problems ; ))) ! Ever watched "Judge Judy" ; ))) ???


well it went wrong for 3 years but we finally got the cats papers lol 

we where going to take her to small claims at the time i was a clerical assistant at the down town court house


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## wishpoo

He he - you see - bed guys always pay at the end LMAO this way or another he he heeee

Also - Starting point or no starting point -* if starting point looks ridiculous - I have no ntention to even try LMAO *


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## KPoos

Olie said:


> Also agree here. Also if someone has a business license for what they are doing there is no need for a witness or notery. And you can take "documented" agreements to small claims court - they just seem to be a waste for many unless lawyers are involved. IMO.


But most breeders aren't labeled as businesses are they? Or else they'd have to pay taxes on the sales of their businesses.hmmmm


----------



## Olie

KPoos said:


> But most breeders aren't labeled as businesses are they? Or else they'd have to pay taxes on the sales of their businesses.hmmmm


These are very interesting thing's that I often wonder about.......maybe a new thread for that.


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## KPoos

Olie said:


> These are very interesting thing's that I often wonder about.......maybe a new thread for that.


Yeah I'm sure that would go over well. "Do you pay taxes on your dog breeding business? Do you make a profit at the end of the year or is it all losses?":lol: You ask and I'll see what they say.


----------



## KPoos

Taxi said:


> Since I am new to this forum and I do not normally "hijack" a thread...
> 
> 1) but it seems members do "hijack" threads here (talk about things that are off topic within a thread)
> 
> 2) Also I notice people cross posting. Taking a post from one thread and inserting it in another thread to get an answer they want (also hijacking).
> 
> Is this typical?


What!?:wacko::fish:


----------



## Taxi

Another way to protect yourself with a bad contract is to purchase a pup with a Credit Card. If you have to use Paypal then have the money come from your Credit Card. This way if Paypal cannot help, you still have the Credit Card. The Credit Card companys see the purchasing of dogs as merchandise and treat it as such. Falling back on this may be use as a last resort but it is easier than going to court and the credit card companies will work for you.


----------



## Taxi

KPoos said:


> What!?:wacko::fish:


Maybe this will help explain better than I did.

http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette

Please feel free to PM me, so as not to clutter up this thread.


----------



## KPoos

Taxi said:


> Maybe this will help explain better than I did.
> 
> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette


Um, so is this typical of your behavior? Less than 20 posts and already you are insulting board members.


----------



## wishpoo

No, I am almost 100 % sure that any agreement signed between two individuals is binding !!!

If , for example, I come to Roxy and want to take over her cattery we can sit by a table and use ink and paper napkin (since we are just slobs) and write this down:''

" Me, Roxy Kittenbauer , am giving away all of my cats to Wishpoo Knowitall, to do with them as she pleases. She can breed them, sell them or give them away at her will and at any time."

Signed by Roxy Kittenbauer
Wishpoo Knowitall

Witness would help but does not have to be present and it can be anybody- like Roxy's sister:

Witness : Roxy's Sister 

At this point I have a document that will absolutely work in my advantage in ANY court - period. 

Same with rental agreements - if I want to rent the room in my home I am not a business ! Do I have rental agreement with my tenant - of course. Is it binding - OF COURSE : )))) !!!!


----------



## plumcrazy

Taxi said:


> Maybe this will help explain better than I did.
> 
> http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Forum_Etiquette
> 
> Please feel free to PM me, so as not to clutter up this thread.


As was stated before, this forum is a pretty small, close-knit community of poodle lovers. Sort of like a family. I have a pretty sizable flesh & blood family (3 brothers, 3 sisters; all but 1 is married and most have children. My parents are still living and some of their grandchildren are married and have children of their own.) We get together every single week for lunch because we like each other and want to find out what's going on in each other's lives, and because we know that we're "there" for each other - to support each other when we have problems, questions, etc... 

That's a lot like this family-type forum... Sometimes we talk over one another, sometimes someone has a discussion in the living room that the people in the kitchen didn't catch, so the discussion may happen again out there... but there's no hard feelings - no complaints... it's just how a family is! Oh, and I sort of like clutter! You should see my desk at home!! :lol:


----------



## spoospirit

cbrand said:


> I didn't realize that the threads about Bijou were deleted. Why is that? Can any breeder ask that unflattering information about them be deleted?


*These threads have NOT been deleted; just closed because they got out of hand. You can still find them by doing a search if you are interested in their content.*


----------



## spoospirit

plumcrazy said:


> As was stated before, this forum is a pretty small, close-knit community of poodle lovers. Sort of like a family. I have a pretty sizable flesh & blood family (3 brothers, 3 sisters; all but 1 is married and most have children. My parents are still living and some of their grandchildren are married and have children of their own.) We get together every single week for lunch because we like each other and want to find out what's going on in each other's lives, and because we know that we're "there" for each other - to support each other when we have problems, questions, etc...
> 
> That's a lot like this family-type forum... Sometimes we talk over one another, sometimes someone has a discussion in the living room that the people in the kitchen didn't catch, so the discussion may happen again out there... but there's no hard feelings - no complaints... it's just how a family is! Oh, and I sort of like clutter! You should see my desk at home!! :lol:


_
I have to agree with you Plum. I have always thought of this forum as a second family and I too come from and have a large family. I guess I am accustomed to the same things you mentioned. There is cross-posting and there are hijackings. These things are seldom a problem because it's like a conversation that just flows where it goes; just like family. 

If we were forced to jump on every thread that did this, I think that our family members would become unhappy and our family dysfunctional. Not that it isn't occasionally already. LOL Obviously, if either of these happens and causes a serious problem it will be addressed. I hope we can keep this a nice family type forum._


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## plumcrazy

spoospirit said:


> _
> I hope we can keep this a nice family type forum._


:hug: me too! :hug:

(ooops! was that off-topic???) :fish: :lol:


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## wishpoo

I just find it hilarious that somebody new comes to this place and than starts "making rules and regulations" LMAO

One can join and be a member of this community -or one can leave LOL - it is a free country and FREE PUBLIC FORUM - with even bigger* PUBLIC *

Only our dear and well respected Admins and Mods can regulate here anything and that was really maybe the case in 5 instances in those 2 years (as far as I know). I would say that we are VERY functional LOL 

Maybe we do argue sometimes but at the end of the day we are all here to help and give support and share information.

Nobody ever had trouble "following the threads" - so much valuable info was posted so far - new members get the insight in things that some of us had to collect for years and are now willing to share - dog owners, breeders, and future owners alike. 

VIVA LA POODLEforum.com :grouphug:


----------



## Harley_chik

spoospirit said:


> *These threads have NOT been deleted; just closed because they got out of hand. You can still find them by doing a search if you are interested in their content.*


I tried searching several different terms and wasn't able to find them, perhaps only the mods can see them? IDK


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## Scoots

I don't feel like anyone has hijacked this thread. It's like any conversation that evolves to cover multiple issues/questions. Life would be kind of boring if everyone just answered the question and never deviated from the topic at all. 

On a side note (or back to the original topic, I guess), I appreciate the advice and information that's been shared here. It has really helped my husband and I move closer to a decision on what breeder we will use.


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## Taxi

Taxi said:


> Since I am new to this forum and I do not normally "hijack" a thread...
> 
> 1) but it seems members do "hijack" threads here (talk about things that are off topic within a thread)
> 
> 2) Also I notice people cross posting. Taking a post from one thread and inserting it in another thread to get an answer they want (also hijacking).
> 
> Is this typical?


I have been in other forums and people get very annoyed if people "hijack" or "cross post". In fact they react like a few of you did. It was not my intention to offend but to clarify (the reason for the Forum Etiquette URL). As I stated, I wanted to know "is this typical"? A simple "yes" would have been sufficient but you know how families are. As a family member, just because you talk the most and the loudest doesn't make you right. I also come from a large family and know these things. I apologize if I offended some of you, but this is how peope get to know each other. Now I know the Family rules or lack of, there should not be a problem. 

Yes, I do not have many posts, in fact they are all in this thread. But here is the thing. We received a Chocolate Day-Blind Poodle (Hemeralopia) and what I am sharing with the group about contracts, state laws, credit card companys etc... we actually went through. Not to talk about the heart wrenching days as this slowly evolved, all the medical bills and the $#@$% breeder we had to deal with. Hopefully someone can learn from our experience.

You as a family will or will not accept us (me at the moment) and what we have to share. You will determine if your family grows.... eace:


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## KPoos

LOL you didn't mean to offend anyone yet you insult me by posting internet ettiquette in a link form. I can't speak for everyone here but I find it interesting that you came directly to this thread that was mentioning a certain "breeder" right when you got here. If one didn't know better, one might think that it's intentional but how would one ever really know??

On the credit card purchase/paypal stuff, let me talk about my personal experience. I bought $150 worth of used grooming equipment through a cc paypal purchase. Neither one did anything for me when the person I bought the stuff from sent me $100 worth of equipment. I had all of the emails, and the paypal purchase statement and contacted them well within the time to file a complaint. Paypal's hands are tied when you buy something that isn't an Ebay purchase. Sure they will file an internet complaint against the person but if you aren't willing to take it to small claims court you are just out of luck like I was.


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## spoos4us

Bijou Standard Poodle Sales Contract

[email protected]

www.bijoupoodles.com



Bijou Standard Poodles guarantees that the puppy sold is in good physical health on this day of purchase. 
Our Veterinarian has performed a complete physical and has issued an International Health Certificate to attest to 
the perfect health of your puppy. Puppy was bought as a pet and will not be able to be bred. 
Breeder can not guarantee against, bloat, cancer, 
dewclaw re-growth, missing or misaligned adult teeth, ear infection. 
Should puppy have a bellybutton hernia (that MY Vet feels requires repair), dewclaw and or undecended testicle(s) 
this will be repaired during a spay/ neuter at Breeder's cost and at Breeder's Vet before puppy goes home.
We offer replacement for known and proven inherited illnesses that we have screened their parent's for,
and that would prevent the puppy from being enjoyed as a pet, or if puppy develops crippling hip dysplasia 
where the puppy can not walk, we will replace the puppy with another puppy of same sex,
colour, breed and equal value, at our first opportunity, provided the conditions below are met and kept buy buyer: 



1. Within the first 2 (two) years of the puppys life, if he or she is found to have a genetic disease as described above, that young pup will be replaced. If Bijou replaces your pup, the first pup must return to Bijou. This is to insure that that ill puppy has superior quality of life. Some diseases can be formidably expensive and Bijou wishes to assume risk at our Vet. Every breeding is done with great care, thought and research; however, unexpected recessives can be evidenced even though all health testing had been done on sire and dam. Buyer pays all shipping costs involved in returning and receiving replacement puppy.
Should puppy die or be euthanized puppy's medical report and microchip Implant will be sent to Breeder.



2. Buyer will send Bijou a photo of the puppy at one year of age, which will be of digital quality that Bijou can use for advertising purposes. 
The Buyer agrees that if at any time or for any reason they cannot keep the pup/dog, they must notify Bijou Standard Poodles who will always take the puppy back or offer to aid in his/her placement.



3. Registration papers were provided at time of purchase either in hand or in the bottom of the cage that puppy was shipped in. It is up to Buyer to transfer the papers into the Buyers names should Buyer wish to do so. "K-Lar" prefix is to remain on our brown puppies and "Bijou" prefix is to remain on our red puppies. All our pet puppies are sold with "limited" registration papers. Bijou is not responsible for any further registration process costs, or in obtaining any other organizations registration papers. 



4. Contract will be void of puppy has any surgeries before a year of age, after you receive the puppy,
without first consulting with Breeder in writing, if puppy receives Lepto or Corona vaccination without first consulting with your Vet 
to make an informed choice knowing the side effects and preplanning a course of action should puppy react adversely. if puppy receives Rabies yearly and not every 3 years as indicated by manufacturer after initial 2 doses.
If Breeder does not receive a photo at 1 year of age.






Buyer agrees to provide routine veterinary care for the puppy including proper vaccinations or protocals, routine worm checks and to keep records of such care should Buyer have to return the puppy for replacement. Buyer understands contract will be void if Buyer fails to provide routine veterinary care, if puppy is sold, bred, sterilized before 1 year of age unless done by our Vet before puppy goes home, transferred or injured by accident or neglect or our prefix is not on the puppy's registered name. The Buyer will assume any further medical and legal costs involved in caring and maintaining the puppy as of the day of purchase. We also highly recommend Buyer take and graduate from a Basic Obedience Class taught by an accredited Trainer or School. This guarantee does not cover any common puppy ailments such as worms, vitamin deficiencies, any viral, bacterial diseases, disorders brought on by parasites, cancer, bloat or any illness that there are no conclusive health testing for. I, the Buyer have read this contract and understand fully the contents thereof and acknowledge receipt of it. We are not relying on verbal statements not contained herein. Should the BUYER choose to break any of the covenants of this Agreement, the remainder of the Agreement will be considered null and void.






PUPPY’S DATE OF BIRTH:_______________________ PRICE:___________________ SEX:______________
BREED:__________________ COLOUR:________________________ PURCHASE DATE:________________

MICROCHIP NUMBER: ___________________________________________________ 

SIGNATURE OF BUYER:________________________________________ DATE:_______________________

SIGNATURE OF BIJOU BREEDER: _______________________________ DATE: _______________________



This is Bijou's contract as you can see there is a place for both buyer and breeder to sign If no one signs how can any one be accountable for anything?? I made the mistake of buying from her and I didn't sign a contract nor did I get a signed copy from Bijou


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## KPoos

Why was it a mistake? Were there problems with your puppy?


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## spoospirit

Harley_chik said:


> I tried searching several different terms and wasn't able to find them, perhaps only the mods can see them? IDK


*My sincere apologies!! I just realized that it was moved to a section not seen by members. When I looked, I assumed (you know what they say about that!) that everyone was able to see it until I took a second look and noticed where it is. Thank you to the member who brought this to my attention.

I'm sorry you can't get to it.*


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## spoospirit

Taxi said:


> I have been in other forums and people get very annoyed if people "hijack" or "cross post". In fact they react like a few of you did. It was not my intention to offend but to clarify (the reason for the Forum Etiquette URL). As I stated, I wanted to know "is this typical"? A simple "yes" would have been sufficient but you know how families are. As a family member, just because you talk the most and the loudest doesn't make you right. I also come from a large family and know these things. I apologize if I offended some of you, but this is how peope get to know each other. Now I know the Family rules or lack of, there should not be a problem.
> 
> Yes, I do not have many posts, in fact they are all in this thread. But here is the thing. We received a Chocolate Day-Blind Poodle (Hemeralopia) and what I am sharing with the group about contracts, state laws, credit card companys etc... we actually went through. Not to talk about the heart wrenching days as this slowly evolved, all the medical bills and the $#@$% breeder we had to deal with. Hopefully someone can learn from our experience.
> 
> You as a family will or will not accept us (me at the moment) and what we have to share. You will determine if your family grows.... eace:


_I'm so sorry to hear about your poodle. That is a terrible thing that the breeder is not helping you out. 

I worked as town clerk/treasurer for my town for several years. I've seen all sort of contracts and a lot of them that could not be enforced even after expensive court battles.

The first thing that jumped out at me was the requirement for the 1-year rabies. As the person who registered the dogs in my town, I know that the law on rabies changed in the state of Vermont from the 1-year to the three year one. The pup gets a 1-year shot the first time but after that gets three-year shots. That would automatically null and void the contract through no fault of the buyer. That simply isn't right.

I can understand your concern since you have had such a bad experience._


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## spoos4us

KPoos said:


> Why was it a mistake? Were there problems with your puppy?


 Yes Because we didn't agree with her pedatric spay she assumed that we wanted to have doodle puppies and decided to remedy that and send us a puppy other then the one we bought We bought a dark brown and recieved a silver beige


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## KPoos

spoos4us said:


> Yes Because we didn't agree with her pedatric spay she assumed that we wanted to have doodle puppies and decided to remedy that and send us a puppy other then the one we bought We bought a dark brown and recieved a silver beige


Well, I don't understand. Why send one puppy that's a different color if you are worried about pediatric spays? Was that puppy spayed before you got her and the other one not? I can't believe someone would take someone's money for one thing and send them something entirely different. Just goes to show you the ethics of people I guess. 

I personally don't believe in pediatric spays but that's my own personal opinion. I would have been really upset if I didn't get the puppy I paid for but without any proof how could you do anything about it?


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## spoos4us

My vet doesn't like the pediatric spay she says it can cause problems later in life that is why my husband and I told Bijou that we would have her spayed at a year old. She sent us a puppy with a scar on her belly(and days later she told me it was a hernia)(which my vet says she still has a hernia) I say if she didn't trust me she should have returned my money (as it says on her website they reserve the right to refuse to sell to anyone for any reason)I can't believe she would send a puppy that we know nothing about(health temperment parents or the fading color) since those our some of her big selling points(all the other puppies from the litter have stayed dark brown it seems funny that my puppy is the only one that changed


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## KPoos

spoos4us said:


> My vet doesn't like the pediatric spay she says it can cause problems later in life that is why my husband and I told Bijou that we would have her spayed at a year old. She sent us a puppy with a scar on her belly(and days later she told me it was a hernia)(which my vet says she still has a hernia) I say if she didn't trust me she should have returned my money (as it says on her website they reserve the right to refuse to sell to anyone for any reason)*I can't believe she would send a puppy that we know nothing about(health temperment parents or the fading color)* since those our some of her big selling points(all the other puppies from the litter have stayed dark brown it seems funny that my puppy is the only one that changed


You know that part right there shows some serious lack of concern for where her puppies end up. If you were okay to send that puppy to, you should have been okay to send the puppy you wanted. I'm sorry but a story like this needs to be told because people need to be aware of what they are dealing with before they get in too deep. Someone that would just take someone's money and switch a puppy doesn't have a lot of integrity.


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## Taxi

KPoos said:


> LOL you didn't mean to offend anyone yet you insult me by posting internet ettiquette in a link form. I can't speak for everyone here but I find it interesting that you came directly to this thread that was mentioning a certain "breeder" right when you got here. If one didn't know better, one might think that it's intentional but how would one ever really know??
> 
> On the credit card purchase/paypal stuff, let me talk about my personal experience. I bought $150 worth of used grooming equipment through a cc paypal purchase. Neither one did anything for me when the person I bought the stuff from sent me $100 worth of equipment. I had all of the emails, and the paypal purchase statement and contacted them well within the time to file a complaint. Paypal's hands are tied when you buy something that isn't an Ebay purchase. Sure they will file an internet complaint against the person but if you aren't willing to take it to small claims court you are just out of luck like I was.


"...posting internet ettiquette in a link form" insulted you, how?

The thread is about a contract that a Junior Member brought up & you say to someone who reply's that it is intentional. It sure was intentional, hopefully Scoots & others gets something out of it.

Its too bad your luck ran out on your complaint. You make it sound like small claims court is the only way to do it. This is my whole point about this thread dealing with this contract. It seems because it may pertain to a certain breeder that its a bad contract, not true. If you want a pup there are ways to negotiate and preconceived ideas (i.e. small claims court is the only way to do it) are stumbling blocks and it gives the novice buyer the wrong idea. It is just as contract and it is made to be negotiated, so are complaints. 

Although it took almost a year to get our monies. Between Paypal & the Credit Card company we were fully refunded.


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## Cdnjennga

Taxi said:


> "posting internet ettiquette in a link form" insulted you, how?It seems because it may pertain to a certain breeder that its a bad contract, not true. If you want a pup there are ways to negotiate and preconceived ideas (i.e. small claims court is the only way to do it) are stumbling blocks and it gives the novice buyer the wrong idea. It is just as contract and it is made to be negotiated, so are complaints.


Most of the issues brought up about the contract were made before a specific breeder was identified. And sure contracts can be negotiated, but you have to have a decent starting point. IMO the contract as presented didn't have that.


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## wishpoo

Cdnjennga said:


> Most of the issues brought up about the contract were made before a specific breeder was identified. And sure contracts can be negotiated, but you have to have a decent starting point. IMO the contract as presented didn't have that.


:amen:

Exactly what I posted couple of pages back ; )))


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## Cdnjennga

wishpoo said:


> :amen:
> 
> Exactly what I posted couple of pages back ; )))


What's that saying about great minds wishpoo???


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## wishpoo

ha ha haaaaaa LU TOOOOO :rose::rose::rose:


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## Taxi

Cdnjennga said:


> Most of the issues brought up about the contract were made before a specific breeder was identified. And sure contracts can be negotiated, but you have to have a decent starting point. IMO the contract as presented didn't have that.


I agree but the contract is the starting point. I am trying to communicate to buyers, if you want the pup the contract can be totally re-written. A course the breeder has to agree. When we have a our heart set on a particular litter, we negotiate with the breeder with terms we both can live with. The primary concern of the breeders we have dealt with are for the puppies care... this our concern also. The contract is secondary. Do not let it be a stumbling block.


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## Cdnjennga

Taxi said:


> I agree but the contract is the starting point. I am trying to communicate to buyers, if you want the pup the contract can be totally re-written. A course the breeder has to agree. When we have a our heart set on a particular litter, we negotiate with the breeder with terms we both can live with. The primary concern of the breeders we have dealt with are for the puppies care... this our concern also. The contract is secondary. Do not let it be a stumbling block.


I guess if you have your heart set on that particular litter. But I also think it depends on how you want the final contract to look. The one posted on this thread was so far away from what I want in a contract that I wouldn't bother trying to renegotiate basically every single term. I would just find a breeder who offers terms that are more in line with my thinking off the bat. I know they exist, I've talked to them!


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## Taxi

Cdnjennga said:


> I guess if you have your heart set on that particular litter. But I also think it depends on how you want the final contract to look. The one posted on this thread was so far away from what I want in a contract that I wouldn't bother trying to renegotiate basically every single term. I would just find a breeder who offers terms that are more in line with my thinking off the bat. I know they exist, I've talked to them!


I agree that those contracts exist. What are we buying, a puppy or a contract?

This is good conversation for a buyer to hopefully realize.


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## wishpoo

*I do absolutely realize !!!

If a breeder is not eloquent enough and educated enough of how to make a decent contract and does not treat allllll customers with equal dignity and respect - I do not want to deal with that breeder - period !!! *

I will consider to "re- negotiate" warranty from 2 years to 3, or "return policy" (refund and after what period) - but finding and correcting insane demands - no thank you very much ! WHY waste my time - so many GREAT breeders out there and soooo many top quality puppies to choose from - it is almost like being in a "candy-land" LMAO 

I disagree ... I choose "complete package" - great breeder, great contract, all tests done , great contract !!!! Or there is no deal ...But it is me ; )


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## Taxi

I have to agree, even though it is all relative, "complete package" - great breeder, great contract, all tests done, great contract !!!! Or there is no deal. So far we have had great additions to our family.

The members here are truly a close nit family, almost like a tag team... you get to dance with everybody.


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## bigredpoodle

*


Taxi said:



I have to agree, even though it is all relative, "complete package" - great breeder, great contract, all tests done, great contract !!!! Or there is no deal. So far we have had great additions to our family.

The members here are truly a close nit family, almost like a tag team... you get to dance with everybody

Click to expand...

*


Taxi said:


> .



I am curious why these threads always go against Bijou? Have all of you purchased puppies from this breeder and were unsatisfied? Had a persoanl reationship with this breeder? Personal experiences ? Since joining I have seen almost all of these types of threads go this way. Some of you even claim to having been to her house in Ontario. Is it really that bad? Some breeders do not even have a contract to negotiate...No guarantee at all..... At least whoever this breeder is, is trying. Contracts are meant to be negotiated. Just curious


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## Harley_chik

I don't think we should give any breeder credit for kinda trying to do a good job. That's like saying we should give a breeder credit for doing preliminary health tests and nothing else. It's more than the average BYB does afterall. 

I don't get the attitude that some people have about breeding. It's as if it's their duty to breed, they need to do it. And they are shocked when anyone questions their program. No one needs to breed. It's something you should be doing b/c you love the breed and want to continue it w/ healthy, well tempered, nice looking dogs. If you're not going to do it right, why do it at all? There are Champion dogs out there, w/ great pedigrees, that are never bred for whatever reason. Why do so many people think they should be applauded for breeding their pet quality dogs?

If I'm not mistaken, you were around for the other Bijou posts and even participated in them. Do you not remember any of the evidence posted that contradicted her statements here or on her website? Do you not remember her behavior? I'm not saying you have to agree w/ the general opinion of her, but I think you know why so many feel the way they do.


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## Poodlepal

(putting on flame suit again)

This forum talks about being a *family*. yet time again all I see is a lot of flaming of new people who state different opinions and a lot of resentment and hate toward breeders with people piling on when they have no inkling of an idea what it takes to breed and couldn't recognize an honest hard working breeder if they bit them in the arse. Seems there are so many idealist opinions from people who want everything under gods green earth for their puppy but to spend next to nothing and then if someone don't have all their i's dotted and t's crossed just to their liking they must by deceptive or worse and opinions may be formed on nuthing more than a website.

I don't know bijou but i did read the posts. i reserve judgment until I personally do business or meet someone. I just hate to see a bunch of novice rookies and wannabes taking pot shots and chunking grenades at people who probably know a heck of a lot more than they do. Now for anyone who is about to get all riled up as i said before, if the shoe fits wear it and take responsibility. If this isn't you, don't get your feathers all ruffled and consider it rambling of an old crazy woman. I feel sorry for new people who come here and get blasted when they try to help. If you haven't been a member here for eons there are a faction of people who pile up against you. Maybe thats the kind of families you all come from but it sure isn't my idea of a family.


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## Olie

Harley_chik said:


> I don't think we should give any breeder credit for kinda trying to do a good job. That's like saying we should give a breeder credit for doing preliminary health tests and nothing else. It's more than the average BYB does afterall.
> 
> I don't get the attitude that some people have about breeding. It's as if it's their duty to breed, they need to do it. And they are shocked when anyone questions their program. No one needs to breed. It's something you should be doing b/c you love the breed and want to continue it w/ healthy, well tempered, nice looking dogs. If you're not going to do it right, why do it at all? There are Champion dogs out there, w/ great pedigrees, that are never bred for whatever reason. Why do so many people think they should be applauded for breeding their pet quality dogs?
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, you were around for the other Bijou posts and even participated in them. Do you not remember any of the evidence posted that contradicted her statements here or on her website? Do you not remember her behavior? I'm not saying you have to agree w/ the general opinion of her, but I think you know why so many feel the way they do.


I was not here during those B-posts - GOD I would love to see them. Or love to hear just a little bit of what was said. Only my impression, but it does seem that this Bijou breeder is very defensive and self centered. I HAVE SEEN where she has accused people of speaking of her and people WERE NOT. No mention of her what so ever.........then her or one of her supporters which is fair, pops in and then BOOM , IT'S on for these people that do not respect her - its an opinion. ALSO, want to add BRP - that it does not always take being at a breeders home or to have experienced a bad purchase. As long as a breeder puts their information out there it is open for positive and negative feedback. Many comments I see are based of what she provides on her website. BUT I do agree a bit when you say, at least she is trying and contracts are negotiable - I have been saing that from the get go BUT I think maybe trying could go in another direction - like NOT THREATENING people to keep their mouths shut, or to watch their backs...........to me it seems this person is a bit self centered and wants to have a clean reputation, which is fine, but wow I think she might have gone in the wrong direction........JMO.


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## Taxi

Poodlepal said:


> (putting on flame suit again)
> 
> This forum talks about being a *family*. yet time again all I see is a lot of flaming of new people who state different opinions and a lot of resentment and hate toward breeders with people piling on when they have no inkling of an idea what it takes to breed and couldn't recognize an honest hard working breeder if they bit them in the arse. Seems there are so many idealist opinions from people who want everything under gods green earth for their puppy but to spend next to nothing and then if someone don't have all their i's dotted and t's crossed just to their liking they must by deceptive or worse and opinions may be formed on nuthing more than a website.
> 
> I don't know bijou but i did read the posts. i reserve judgment until I personally do business or meet someone. I just hate to see a bunch of novice rookies and wannabes taking pot shots and chunking grenades at people who probably know a heck of a lot more than they do. Now for anyone who is about to get all riled up as i said before, if the shoe fits wear it and take responsibility. If this isn't you, don't get your feathers all ruffled and consider it rambling of an old crazy woman. I feel sorry for new people who come here and get blasted when they try to help. If you haven't been a member here for eons there are a faction of people who pile up against you. Maybe thats the kind of families you all come from but it sure isn't my idea of a family.


Very well written. It does get a little warm in here. :flame: This statement is especially true, " i reserve judgment until I personally do business or meet someone." will save someone a lot of turmoil. :congrats:


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## Purple Poodle

Poodlepal said:


> (putting on flame suit again)
> 
> This forum talks about being a *family*. yet time again all I see is a lot of flaming of new people who state different opinions and a lot of resentment and hate toward breeders with people piling on *when they have no inkling of an idea what it takes to breed and couldn't recognize an honest hard working breeder if they bit them in the arse.* Seems there are so many idealist opinions from people who want everything under gods green earth for their puppy but to spend next to nothing and then if someone don't have all their i's dotted and t's crossed just to their liking they must by deceptive or worse and opinions may be formed on nuthing more than a website.
> 
> I don't know bijou but i did read the posts. i reserve judgment until I personally do business or meet someone. *I just hate to see a bunch of novice rookies and wannabes taking pot shots and chunking grenades at people who probably know a heck of a lot more than they do.* Now for anyone who is about to get all riled up as i said before, if the shoe fits wear it and take responsibility. If this isn't you, don't get your feathers all ruffled and consider it rambling of an old crazy woman. I feel sorry for new people who come here and get blasted when they try to help. If you haven't been a member here for eons there are a faction of people who pile up against you. Maybe thats the kind of families you all come from but it sure isn't my idea of a family.


Who's throwing pot shots now? We are all trying to help each other and I have yet to see any "flaming".

I don't know Bijou or even care to. I judge her by her website as that's where she does her "business" and we have all seen and heard her contradictions. 

We all state different opinions and hell I have been on the bad side of the so called flaming. It happens, get over it.


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## thestars

Taxi said:


> ".The thread is about a contract that a Junior Member brought up...
> 
> ...This is my whole point about this thread dealing with this contract. It seems because it may pertain to a certain breeder that its a bad contract, not true. If you want a pup there are ways to negotiate and preconceived ideas (i.e. small claims court is the only way to do it) are stumbling blocks and it gives the novice buyer the wrong idea. It is just as contract and it is made to be negotiated, so are complaints.


Taxi, you are Exactly right! Every contract is negotiable! I've negotiated both purchase and sales contracts as well as other related contracts. Why I find it a good sign from a person that they've read and understand and will question a contract. In my personal experience, I've had an older couple whom did not want to sign a contract. Mind you they did not leave this house without a contract if they wanted one of my puppies. Even though they live local and go to our same vet. It is an understanding and agreement you make with the breeder. The actions you take may help in the further use of that contract. As I said earlier, ever breeder in the Poodle club works to enhance their contracts on a continual basis.

As for the contract that was drawn up by a lawyer, YIKES! That tells me they've probably had some very bad experiences with Puppy buyers.

I haven't seen any of the other breeders on this forum talk about their contracts. I've been to a few sights and have not seen any posted for potential buyers to read... 

I've noticed a lot of people complaining about breeders, but none of the horrible stories about puppy buyers.

As for spoos4us, I'm puzzled as I heard from the breeder that you were given multiply opportunities to receive a refund to include the very day you got her and months after. I'd like to hear your side of the story, why don't you PM me. 

As for MY personal experience with this breeder, it has been Excellent!!! Anyone whom wants to discuss my experiences is invited to call or email me privately. http://www.patriotpoodles.com/ContactUs.html


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Oh my goodness. Here we go again. I knew that this was going to happen...


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## bigredpoodle

Poodlepal said:


> (putting on flame suit again)
> 
> This forum talks about being a *family*. yet time again all I see is a lot of flaming of new people who state different opinions and a lot of resentment and hate toward breeders with people piling on when they have no inkling of an idea what it takes to breed and couldn't recognize an honest hard working breeder if they bit them in the arse. Seems there are so many idealist opinions from people who want everything under gods green earth for their puppy but to spend next to nothing and then if someone don't have all their i's dotted and t's crossed just to their liking they must by deceptive or worse and opinions may be formed on nuthing more than a website.
> 
> I don't know bijou but i did read the posts. i reserve judgment until I personally do business or meet someone. I just hate to see a bunch of novice rookies and wannabes taking pot shots and chunking grenades at people who probably know a heck of a lot more than they do. Now for anyone who is about to get all riled up as i said before, if the shoe fits wear it and take responsibility. If this isn't you, don't get your feathers all ruffled and consider it rambling of an old crazy woman. I feel sorry for new people who come here and get blasted when they try to help. If you haven't been a member here for eons there are a faction of people who pile up against you. Maybe thats the kind of families you all come from but it sure isn't my idea of a family.


Halleluiah I agree with this,,,,,, time after time these type of post get centered around this person. The family thing was an intersting way of putting it  New people are constantly accused of being this person as well .....
I too think that unles you OWN a poodle and KNOW of this particular person and HAVE *been *to their home then judgement needs to be reserved, I like to see it and know about for myself. WE have a member of this forum that HAS done business with this breeder and is quite happy with ther girl , (and has a good realtionship with this breeder).. That IS a *UKC* champion and is now competing in AKC ..She Has passed every health test so far...How can this be a bad thing? 
I agree poodlepal I feel sorry for these new people too .....Why is having a different opinion a bad thing. I think that if you are testing showing and trying to do things right what is the problem?


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## roxy25

Harley_chik said:


> Do you not remember any of the evidence posted that contradicted her statements here or on her website? Do you not remember her behavior? I'm not saying you have to agree w/ the general opinion of her, but I think you know why so many feel the way they do.



The people who where their to read those threads should remember because I do ! 

I am getting very sick of these threads because for one Bijou has been banned due to her behavior. Second we get new members who post vague intros then head straight to a bijou thread. I am sorry for saying this but we have all seen the people who do this and they are either Bijou her self with another alias or its one of her friends......

This thread is Locked !


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