# When is a doodle considered a poodle?



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Out of curiosity I was checking out a doodle forum. I found it interesting on how doodle breeders are dealing with shedding. 

A F1B doodle is 3/4's poodle. So in order to guarantee a non shedder they are breeding F1B's back to poodles, so isn't this combo 7/8 poodle?

I guess my question is this, when does a doodle stop being considered a doodle and is considered a poodle that is groomed differently? 

A dog that is 7/8 poodle, I would think this is just a poodle. I actually saw one at the dog park. It was groomed like a poodle and was indistinguishable from a pure bred.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Well from the AKC's perspective, both parents have to be 100% purebred registered poodles for the offspring to be considered poodles. I believe there's also a way to get them officially considered poodles if you can show that a certain number of generations have bred true to the poodle breed standard.

Practically speaking, though, outside of registries? 7/8 is pretty darn close. I guess it just comes down to how many of their traits (including coat type, personality, build, etc.) follow their poodle ancestry as opposed to whatever they're mixed with.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

In a word "never". If a dog is not 100% poodle it's not a pure bred poodle


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Poodle Lover said:


> In a word "never". If a dog is not 100% poodle it's not a pure bred poodle


Maybe not a pure breed, but at 7/8ths I would think the only physical difference is the grooming. I doubt any retriever characteristics are going to show up.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I've thought about that too. Technically never but seriously...after you keep breeding a doodle back to a poodle, and back to a poodle, and back to a poodle again...and its 99.9% a poodle...for all intents and purposes it's a poodle. 

A lot of the 3/4ths doodles are really popular and some of them (not all) look and behave like poodles. 

I guess all dogs were mixed at one point.


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

Any pictures ?

If the breeders are wanting non-shedding why don't they just concentrate on breeding poodles ? Ahh yes the money's not as good, am I being cynical


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Where I am, doodles have replaced poodles as the most expensive dog to groom.

I don't think doodle breeders routinely breeder F1Bs to poodles. They do breed F1s (50/50)mix to poodles quite often to create F1bs though.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Summerhouse said:


> Any pictures ?
> 
> If the breeders are wanting non-shedding why don't they just concentrate on breeding poodles ? Ahh yes the money's not as good, am I being cynical


That would be the smart thing to do. But they think they can improve the temperament of a poodle by adding other dogs. :afraid:

I wish I still had this picture. I routinely look for adult female poodles on different websites and came across one on Craigslist described as a standard poodle mix. I actually emailed the poster to ask what she was mixed with because she looked 100% poodle. He said she was 1/4th sheep dog. She didn't look it at all.

The post expired so I can't look at the picture anymore. Sorry


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Summerhouse said:


> Any pictures ?
> 
> If the breeders are wanting non-shedding why don't they just concentrate on breeding poodles ? Ahh yes the money's not as good, am I being cynical


A lot of people seem to think poodles are not manly dogs. But 7/8ths poodles with furry faces are Macho canine beasts. When I tell my buddies I have a poodle, eyes will occasionally roll.


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Naira said:


> Where I am, doodles have replaced poodles as the most expensive dog to groom.
> 
> I don't think doodle breeders routinely breeder F1Bs to poodles. They do breed F1s (50/50)mix to poodles quite often to create F1bs though.


It's becoming more common to breed the F1B back to a poodle to control shedding. This is commonly called F1b.b 

F1B.B. Generation
12.5%Lab / 87.5%Poodle = F1B.B Labradoodle
12.5%Golden /87.5%Poodle = F1B.B Goldendoodle


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Well I'm sure you might eventually be able to breed out the doodle part over a certain time (think merle poodles, only the knowledgeable know they aren't actually full poodle). But remember that certain traits can pop up randomly if a recessive gene is in play. One reason why you never really know what size poodle you'll get. Even if it is a mini X mini or a small standard X small standard. Traits can pop up from the generation randomly. So even if that dog is poodle X poodle but one poodle has doodle in its background it can still pass on a doodle characteristic. Hope that made sense.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oliverthedog said:


> Out of curiosity I was checking out a doodle forum. I found it interesting on how doodle breeders are dealing with shedding.
> 
> A F1B doodle is 3/4's poodle. So in order to guarantee a non shedder they are breeding F1B's back to poodles, so isn't this combo 7/8 poodle?
> 
> ...


If it is 1/8 something else then it isn't a poodle, ever.

Naira, why would you think crossing out to other breeds would improve the poodle's temperament. Well bred and trained poodles have splendid temperaments.

If you cross a spoo to a lab or golden then at least you are crossing two retrievers that will have retriever type temperaments. If you cross a spoo to, let's say a herding dog, you get a dog that may have internal mental confusion based on the instinctive drives of the parent breeds. I don't think that improves anything.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Oliverthedog said:


> It's becoming more common to breed the F1B back to a poodle to control shedding. This is commonly called F1b.b
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's crazy!!!! I'm sorry I meant to say that's *stupid*. 

It took me a long time to understand the appeal of 50/50 doodle...If your dog is 90% poodle just get a poodle and you won't have to worry! 

Gosh.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> If it is 1/8 something else then it isn't a poodle, ever.
> 
> Naira, why would you think crossing out to other breeds would improve the poodle's temperament. Well bred and trained poodles have splendid temperaments.
> 
> If you cross a spoo to a lab or golden then at least you are crossing two retrievers that will have retriever type temperaments. If you cross a spoo to, let's say a herding dog, you get a dog that may have internal mental confusion based on the instinctive drives of the parent breeds. I don't think that improves anything.



To be clear...I NEVER SAID THAT CROSSING THE BREED IMPROVES THE TEMPERAMENT.... You misunderstood me. 

I said, that's what they THINK they are accomplishing.

I hope you and the three people that liked your post see this because I would NEVER say you could improve the poodle temperament by cross breeding and it actually horrifies me that you think I said that!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Naira said:


> To be clear...I NEVER SAID THAT CROSSING THE BREED IMPROVES THE TEMPERAMENT.... You misunderstood me.
> 
> I just asked you a question. You brought this point up.
> 
> ...


Why are you being defensive? We were having a discussion and I asked you a question, that's all.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I'm not being defensive. You said "Naira, why would YOU think..."

I'm clarifying that I never said *I* thought anything...I was saying what doodle breeders think. 

We both agree on the same point--nothing needs to be added to the poodle breed to improve it. I had to clarify my statement when I was misquoted. 

It is no way an attack on you, or being defensive...it's just clarifying what was said.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

When I decided that I wanted a Goldendoodle I only considered the first generation because that was the look I adored.....the soft shaggy "muppet look".
I knew that there was a good chance that this dog would shed, I didn't care.
The soft shaggy look was exactly what I got with Millie and that is how I keep her coat.

My opinion in the f1b breeding where they are 75% Poodle is why not just get a Poodle then? I have seen many of these f1b GD's and the owners have them clipped right down.....to me they look unattractive and it totally takes away the "doodle" look, so what's the point?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Here's something from AKC...what makes a breed a breed:


Becoming Recognized by the AKC - American Kennel Club


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

What is with all these Doodle people trying to breed a purebred Poodle starting with a mix. It can't be done, will never be done... no matter how many Fs you add or subtract. 

Get the heck off our forum with your stupid speculations.


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Countryboy said:


> What is with all these Doodle people trying to breed a purebred Poodle starting with a mix. It can't be done, will never be done... no matter how many Fs you add or subtract.
> 
> Get the heck off our forum with your stupid speculations.


Did you just ask me to leave this forum because I asked a question? I have owned three Standard Poodles and am far from a Doodle person. I asked the question because I don't understand the purpose of breeding a dog that is 7/8 poodle.

How about if you don't like the thread, don't read it.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

O.k. people....let's not fight...we all are entitled to our opinions...and we should respect that.

IMO...a crossbreed...(example...poodle/cocker spaniel, poodle/lab, poodle/golden, etc) are all considered "mutts". While I think it is fine for people to want this type of dog, and I hold nothing against that decision, just remember, that paying a high amount of money for a "mutt" is insane. I for the life of me, cannot understand people paying $400 to $2500. for a mixed breed. Why not buy a purebred for that price? A mutt is still a mutt and should be priced accordingly...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> What is with all these Doodle people trying to breed a purebred Poodle starting with a mix. It can't be done, will never be done... no matter how many Fs you add or subtract.
> 
> Get the heck off our forum with your stupid speculations.


I didn't perceive the question to be anything like promoting Doodles or trying to figure out how the_ OP _could breed Poodles from Doodles. I saw it as an interesting concept to ponder and discuss...a legitimate question. I don't think Oliverthedog meant anything below board about it. At least I didn't notice anything. :dontknow:


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

BOMLE and IMAO, why people would rather breed for 7/8th Poodle or even further is just plain ignorance and prejudice about breeds and misconceptions about breeding.

So many pick a doodle in the first place because they want some breed that has a solid (perhaps overblown) reputation as a family dog like the Lab or the Golden, "but we don't want a shedding dog". They won't consider a purebred Poodle because they simply don't have that sort of reputation. Even if people have bad experiences with Lab or Goldens they'll be more likely to say "I hated my neighbour's stupid Lab when I was a kid" rather than "ugh I hate Labs, they are so stupid", whereas a bad experience with one owner's Poodles easily turns into "Poodles are disgusting little yappers".

And let's face it, Poodles are never going to get rid of the "stupid frou frou pooch" thing entirely. The pompoms are embedded in our cultural canon, people think that pompoms -> Poodle, and Poodle -> pompoms. Just astounding amounts of silly misconceptions and prejudice. It has more cultural weight than you'd think, how dog breeds are cast in films and so on. I could go on and on about this but I'll save it for another time.

So their ideal dog is "Lab but no shedding" and since they'd take the much lower maintenance Lab if they could deal with shedding at all, they want to be rather sure of that no-shed thing. Hence, multiple generation infusions of Poodle blood. At a certain point, say around the 7/8th mark and certainly no longer than 15/16ths what they're getting is a dog who's a Poodle on all practical accounts, and the _thought_ of it having Lab characteristics.

----

The SWF crowd is another thing entirely, they seem to frankly take any little dog as long as it's fluffy and cute, and aren't so set on specific breeds before they decide that compromises must be made. And even more than Americans generally, they seem to be suckers for specialness and uniqueness. The crazier the cross the better.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

People believe what they read. But what's even worse, they believe what they think they read. Even the discussion of creating a Poodle from something less than a Poodle is bound to spark some demented minds into trying it. 

Somebody, somewhere, is gonna be adding up the Fs and giving it a go. And, in that sense, you're all feeding the insanity by speculating on how it might be done. 

So it's not a case of me staying out of this thread... I'm speaking against the idea of even leaving it in this forum. So that nobody will ever read it.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't see how not talking about it here is going to stop people from breeding mixed breed dogs. They've been doing that for a long time and I doubt seriously that anything said here had much influence. I wouldn't worry about it. And if someone sitting on the fence about breeding a mixed breed dog reads this, they'll also see what the opposing view is and why. Censorship is never a productive thing imo. (Maybe it's the old time American in me. lol)


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Countryboy said:


> People believe what they read. But what's even worse, they believe what they think they read. Even the discussion of creating a Poodle from something less than a Poodle is bound to spark some demented minds into trying it.
> 
> Somebody, somewhere, is gonna be adding up the Fs and giving it a go. And, in that sense, you're all feeding the insanity by speculating on how it might be done.
> 
> So it's not a case of me staying out of this thread... I'm speaking against the idea of even leaving it in this forum. So that nobody will ever read it.


The fact that you asked me to leave the forum is what really pisses me off. Who the hell do you think you are to make that statement. If anything this is a healthy discussion of the greed of breeders and the prejudice against Poodles that we have all faced. The fact that someone would pay thousands for a dog that is almost all Poodle just to say they own doodle I find almost as offensive as I find you.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

The ladies in here all know me. They know I speak my mind. I'll probably keep doing that.

In here?? My point has been made.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Well-bred poodles have excellent temperaments, but poorly-bred poodles (who are, sadly, quite common) are all over the map. Poodles do have a reputation for unstable temperaments, and I wouldn't say it's entirely undeserved for that reason. So I can see the impulse behind hoping for a lab temperament with a poodle coat. The sad thing is the lack of education - for the prices some people pay for a doodle, they could certainly get a well-bred standard poodle instead.

But yeah, by the time a dog's background includes one lab three generations back, and otherwise it's all poodles, I don't see how you can expect that much of the lab is going to still come through. I do support thoughtful outcrossing to increase genetic diversity in some breeds, but doodle breeding isn't doing that as far as I've ever heard. It just seems misguided.

When I was looking for my dog, I was open to a cocker/poodle cross because I love both poodles and cocker spaniels and would be happy with any mix of traits from the two even if it meant I got the worst of both. Doodle enthusiasts tend to seem more interested in somehow getting this exact, ideal combination of traits from the parent dogs, though, and that's just not how it works.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I have tried to stay away from this, but countryboy - what a terrible thing to say and such a nasty way of saying it... It's just not necessary to be so arrogant or belittling when giving your opinion, maybe take a moment to think about how you are presenting yourself and how your words may hurt someone. 
I don't know who "the ladies" are that would condone or appreciate the way you "speak your mind", but let it be known I am not one of them.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Countryboy...stop trippin. Why not go belly up to the bar and have a beer and chill with the boys? Things aren't that bad. Labradoodles aren't that bad. I mean, in the whole spectrum of life. It's all cool. Nothing terrible will happen if someone reads this thread. Trust me.


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

I didn't read the original post as promoting doodles, either. I think we all know the vast majority of us here don't appear to promote doodles and think it would be virtually impossible to improve on our lovely poodles.

That being said, it is an interesting question. I recall watching a documentary on dogs (probably the famous BBC one). I know I will get the specifics wrong, but I believe it was referencing a kidney disease common in dalmations, and a breeder introduced pointers, I think, to get rid of the gene and then kept breeding back to dals to eliminate the disease. This was done to save the breed and several generations down the AKC? accepted them as full dalmations. This was how I read the initial post - at what point would they be indistinguishable from the original breed.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so what really defines the dog is the akc? i don't particularly kowtow to the akc, but i suppose their function is to preserve the breed and i'm neutral at this point on how they do it. what i do think is odd is breeding in other dogs to poodles and breeding back to poodles to get what? poodles? i can understand the akc's decision when it comes to dalmatians, but that's an administrative ruling, not a scientific one. and it was made in somewhat special circumstances. if poodles were in danger of dying out, i could understand the same decision being made. but it doesn't seem that they are. and what improvement does a doodle bring? labs, goldens and poodles are pretty much all subject to big dog diseases, aren't they? so are we down to temperament? i've encountered bad tempered labs and goldens and people here say there are bad tempered poodles. so where's the overriding good that adds a pinch of sense to breeding out and then breeding back? to me, it's a bit bizarre.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I don't think there's too many dogs I don't love, and I like reading everyone's opinions. There are things about Doodle breeding I do not like, but the actual dog is not one of them. I also believe there are some bad poodle breeders out there too. I've had labs before and love the breed, they are wonderful dogs. This time I just decided I was done with the hair and considered a doodle of sorts, but after doing some research my thought was - pick one or the other. I did have to convince my husband on a poodle in the beginning, but now he's the biggest poodle advocate around. He works in the oil industry and is often asked "so is that your wives dog", then he educates them on the standard poodle. I have nothing against mixed breeds, I do take exception to breeders lying to people about the expectations of their puppies and charging too much. If someone is knowledgable and goes into the puppy purchase knowing what to expect, I don't have a problem with their choice. It sure would be boring if everyone owned a poodle.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Countryboy...stop trippin. Why not go belly up to the bar and have a beer and chill with the boys?



Too true, PBG. I was kind of there already... 'til I saw this.



Oliverthedog said:


> I find almost as offensive as I find you.


And now I'm gone again.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Spoos+Ponies said:


> ...
> That being said, it is an interesting question. I recall watching a documentary on dogs (probably the famous BBC one). I know I will get the specifics wrong, but I believe it was referencing a kidney disease common in dalmations, and a breeder introduced pointers, I think, to get rid of the gene and then kept breeding back to dals to eliminate the disease. This was done to save the breed and several generations down the AKC? accepted them as full dalmations. This was how I read the initial post - at what point would they be indistinguishable from the original breed.


It was a single outcross to Pointer, just one ever. High uric acid production is total in Dalmatians AFAIK, requiring special diets and supervision. The breeder kept breeding back to Dals gen after gen, the progeny was indistinguishable from purebred stock before AKC even opened their ear. They've been accepted by the AKC since 2011 but I don't know if there's a generation limit, such as only 8th gen or higher, 12th gen or higher.

Personally I'm a fan of outcross projects that address a real problem and are carried out diligently. IIRC a terrier breed was facing eventual, massive inbreeding depression and probable extinction due to a very limited genetic pool. A few breeders were permitted to make a very limited number of outcrosses under supervision of both the breed club and Finnish Kennel Club. Another, way more controversial project which IIRC started out as a single breeder's rogue action was to introduce the stump tail gene of the Corgi to the Boxer. I won't go into lengths why that gene is troublesome, but looking at the progeny of this outlandish combination it's astounding in how few generations of backcrosses the dogs looked and did like any Boxer out there. Selective breeding is one helluva tool.

I'll drop by later to give my musings on purebreeding, and breeds overall, but right now my 63rd gen outcross progeny requires my attention most adorably.


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## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Caddy said:


> I did have to convince my husband on a poodle in the beginning, but now he's the biggest poodle advocate around. He works in the oil industry and is often asked "so is that your wives dog", then he educates them on the standard poodle. I have nothing against mixed breeds, I do take exception to breeders lying to people about the expectations of their puppies and charging too much. If someone is knowledgable and goes into the puppy purchase knowing what to expect, I don't have a problem with their choice. It sure would be boring if everyone owned a poodle.


I know what your husband has gone through. I always wanted a white shepherd but due to allergy concerns it was out of the question. I was totally against getting my first poodle, but the wife and kids convinced me 18 years ago. Now I couldn't own any other type of breed. We love dogs, but we love poodles just a little more......

I also continually educate people (especially guys) on how great these dogs are. A guy at work has a F1B golden doodle and I asked why he didn't he just get a pure bred of either breed. His response, we didn't want shedding and I would never own a girly poodle dog. :ahhhhh:


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Oliverthedog said:


> I know what your husband has gone through. I always wanted a white shepherd but due to allergy concerns it was out of the question. I was totally against getting my first poodle, but the wife and kids convinced me 18 years ago. Now I couldn't own any other type of breed. We love dogs, but we love poodles just a little more......
> 
> I also continually educate people (especially guys) on how great these dogs are. A guy at work has a F1B golden doodle and I asked why he didn't he just get a pure bred of either breed. His response, we didn't want shedding and I would never own a girly poodle dog. :ahhhhh:


This is so, so true.
I know many Doodle owners and I'm always surprised to find that they are first time dog owners. I do think the Doodle has gained such popularity because of the (supposedly) non shedding factor. These people don't even consider the Poodle because in most people's minds the Poodle is nothing but a dainty, yappy little show dog with outrageous hairdos. They have no clue that the 
Poodle is such a versatile, intelligent and athletic breed. In fact, they have no clue that the charming and loveable characteristics of their "doodle" actually come from the Poodle!
Now, here's where some people will probably take offence.....but who's fault is this? I too am turned off by some of these outrageous hairdos, I think they look ridiculous and find myself feeling sorry for the poor dog. 
If I hadn't grown up next door to a couple who had a mpoo that was allowed to be "just a dog" with a normal coat then I too may not have realized that they were very cool and fun dogs that were truly just " dogs".

So the bottom line is....this stigma towards Poodles has actually been created by the Poodle owners themselves. I don't feel it's the Doodle owners who are to blame for choosing that cross over the actual Poodle.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Critterluvr said:


> So the bottom line is....this stigma towards Poodles has actually been created by the Poodle owners themselves. I don't feel it's the Doodle owners who are to blame for choosing that cross over the actual Poodle.


Too true, luvr... but I would further separate owners into two categories. One being what we know as The Fancies. Unfortunately, we're all wearing the image of Poodles in the ring.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Critterluvr said:


> This is so, so true.
> I know many Doodle owners and I'm always surprised to find that they are first time dog owners. I do think the Doodle has gained such popularity because of the (supposedly) non shedding factor. These people don't even consider the Poodle because in most people's minds the Poodle is nothing but a dainty, yappy little show dog with outrageous hairdos. They have no clue that the
> Poodle is such a versatile, intelligent and athletic breed. In fact, they have no clue that the charming and loveable characteristics of their "doodle" actually come from the Poodle!
> Now, here's where some people will probably take offence.....but who's fault is this? I too am turned off by some of these outrageous hairdos, I think they look ridiculous and find myself feeling sorry for the poor dog.
> ...


Ooooh boy!!! Okay to begin, in defence of the overdone haircuts in the ring...The Poodle Club of America and the Poodle Club of Canada mandate the haircuts a Poodle must be in to be shown. There are loads of exhibitors who would prefer to be allowed to show our dogs stripped down with a #5 blade with no hair to cover up faults. I believe if Poodles could be shown in a nice pet trim, we'd see entries soar at the shows. BUT, crazy coat or no crazy coat, my Poodles are dogs first, show dogs second. They are allowed to play with one another and act like goofballs and are every bit "country bumpkins" albeit with huge hair. The haircut is not my fault or the dog's fault, but if I want to continue to prove my dogs in this venue, I must deal with the coat. However, my dogs are just as much a dog as my niece's Dobe.

Red Standard Poodle breeders still see throwbacks from time to time from the first breedings of red minis to apricot standards, where you see a larger body and shorter legs. This is now nearing 25 years later. So, it does not matter how long or how many generations later, or how many Fs one adds, there will be throwbacks. A mix is a mix, a purebred a purebred. The Doodle aspect of a 7/8ths dog will rear its ugly head along the way regardless of how careful a "breeder" is. And I cannot for the life of me understand why a sane person would spend $1,500 to $3,500 for a MUTT! I have seen Bernedoodles in Alberta for $4,200. Seriously? So you can be the first person on your block with something nobody else has heard of?

I have nothing against these mixes, but if you want one, go to the pound. Lord knows there are scads of them available and in need of homes. But don't line the pockets of lying, unscrupulous dopes who will say anything to sell a dog.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

But you are missing my point Arreau.... And I am not criticizing YOU as a show dog owner, I am glad that your dogs are allowed to be dogs.

I am not justifying the prices that people are charging for theses crosses, nor am I justifying these crosses......and yes it is getting pretty crazy with the "Bernedoodles" and "Bouvierdoodles" etc.
I am just saying that most people have no clue what an awesome dog a Poodle really is and THIS is the reason they are turning to the Doodles. There is no stigma with the Doodles but I'm afraid that it is a sad fact that there is a real stigma with the Poodle breed. And it IS because of the outrageous haircuts.
I truly wish that the Poodle could be portrayed as the truly wonderful dog that it really is, and that it has the potential to LOOK like a regular dog. Then maybe more people would Poodle rather than Doodle?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Hair or no hair, I think there is many a convert to Poodles just because of someone actually meeting one. I welcome people into our home to meet the dogs. If we are at a show and someone wants to touch the dogs, by all means...as soon as they are finished in the ring. The dogs just need to be allowed to be ambassadors. When we go to our small town we get some sneers, but we get many more people (in a farming community) who want to just meet them and talk about them. And once they do, they walk away with a huge smile one their face (and an Arreau card in their hand) with more knowledge and an altogether different attitude. If they are allowed to just BE themselves in the presence of people who doubted or claimed to dislike them in the past, they see past the hair and see a dog that is balanced, kind, spirited and sweet and soon the haircuts do not matter. And part of the knowledge they gain is the fact that any Poodle can be shaved down, left furry faced, groomed to look any way they would like should they ever be blessed enough to own one.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> But you are missing my point Arreau.... And I am not criticizing YOU as a show dog owner, I am glad that your dogs are allowed to be dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The answer to that is get your wonderful poodles out there and let people see them! Timi changes folks minds about poodles every time that she puts a little paw out the front door.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I totally agree with both of you, when people meet an actual Poodle they are both surprised and impressed!

My daughter just adopted a 15 month Spoo.....he has a fairly short clip and his face is just curly, tidy but natural. When she is out hiking and walking with him people always stop her to comment about him and admire him. Her BF is totally in love with him (would never have been a Poodle person otherwise) and all of our family and friends who have met him have been smitten by him. They had no idea Poodles were such a cool dog!
Good promotion of the breed in my eyes!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Personally, I'm happy as a lark if fewer people discover how great Poodles are...that people aren't rushing in hordes to purchase them, then breed and breed and breed them. I'm much happier keeping them a guarded secret. Who cares if Joe Blow thinks they're foo foo or sissy? That's fine with me. Why would anyone want them to become the most popular dog breed of the day? That's when you see the breed deteriorating. I don't feel like promoting Poodles is going to solve the problem of people breeding designer dogs. We're all proud of our dogs and want people to like them. That's natural. But I won't go way out of my way necessarily, to try and convince someone to buy a Poodle unless I really think they'd be good for a Poodle. 

That hair is to create a pleasing line and shape to go along with their description. It's there to protect against freezing cold water when retrieving. Yes, it's over done perhaps but it's a long holding tradition. What's wrong with that? If someone doesn't like it, who cares? I got tired of maintaining it so I sheared Matisse right down. He's cute. And yes, totally a rough and tumble pet first, show dog second. And well...now...not showing at all, at least for the time being. I haven't come across one single person who has scoffed at my Poodles or made a disparaging remark. They're always met with cheerful appreciation, as they're just soooooo...well...._cute!_ LOL.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I'm pleased to show off Doodly-lookin' Tonka at the park. 

There' been even guys who tell me how... . . they never quite have a word for it. Pretty? Regal? Handsome? Poised? Graceful? How to describe how a Poodle moves, eh? 

It's a start to breaking down preconceptions anyway.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I agree the mandatory cuts, and maintenance of a poodles show coat is definitely a deterrent to the average person. Many years ago we showed our yellow lab, we travelled, met some great people and had fun with it. I couldn't even consider showing a poodle, I'm not prepared to or capable of maintaining a show coat.
When a mixed breed is given a name it becomes a designer dog, and there's always going to be people out there ready to exploit them. People who just prefer a cross between a poodle and a lab or any other breeds, don't care if they have a fancy new name, they just like the dog.
We are at a big fish derby this weekend and I'm amazed and pleased at how many people I hear saying "look a poodle!", and ask if they can pet Abbey. She may be a little over excited, but she loves all comers, two or four legged.


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