# Concerning new research on grain-free dog food



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I fed Peggy Farmina puppy kibble, which is pea-free:









FARMINA N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Medium & Maxi Puppy Dry Dog Food, 26.5-lb bag - Chewy.com


Buy Farmina N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Medium & Maxi Puppy Dry Dog Food, 26.5-lb bag at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




www.chewy.com





She’s now on the adult formula, and still quite likes it, but about half her daily calories come from Honest Kitchen grain-free whole food clusters, which do contain peas.


----------



## Carla (Feb 4, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I fed Peggy Farmina puppy kibble, which is pea-free:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback! Due to recent pet food recalls, my vet advised me to stick with established brands. Is Farmina a well-established brand?


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Carla said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Due to recent pet food recalls, my vet advised me to stick with established brands. Is Farmina a well-established brand?


Farmina is fairly welll established. It's a European brand but has been sold in the U.S. since 2013 and has never had a recall.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Carla said:


> Thanks for the feedback! Due to recent pet food recalls, my vet advised me to stick with established brands. Is Farmina a well-established brand?


To my knowledge, Farmina has never had a recall, and yes, it’s a well-established brand. But of course it’s always important to do your own research.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Lol! Yes, what @Raindrops said.


----------



## Carla (Feb 4, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Farmina is fairly welll established. It's a European brand but has been sold in the U.S. since 2013 and has never had a recall.


Thanks for the info. I wish it weren't quite so expensive, but I'll make the switch if nothing less costly turns up.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Carla said:


> Thanks for the info. I wish it weren't quite so expensive, but I'll make the switch if nothing less costly turns up.


When comparing costs, be sure to also compare serving sizes. You may be surprised how far a bag of premium kibble goes vs. a cheaper bag.


----------



## Carla (Feb 4, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> When comparing costs, be sure to also compare serving sizes. You may be surprised how far a bag of premium kibble goes vs. a cheaper bag.


I'll try to find that info online--thanks!


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

In addition to getting brand recommendations, and you may get as many as you have responders, look for foods that are nutritionally balanced produced by companies that have full time veterinary nutritionists on staff, and that carry the AAFCO label on the bag. 

If recalls are a factor, here's the FDA site where that info is collected:
Refine the Search by using "dog" in the search field. 
Recalls & Withdrawals | FDA

From a recent thread (use Search with "DCM" as the topic if you want to see more on this)

To be considered a healthy food, the food needs to be nutritionally balanced. This isn't a question of which brand particularly but very much what that company does to produce nutritionally balanced foods.

_Balanced diet isn't just having a range of ingredients, it's also a proper combination of nutrients and how those ingredients mix with each other to provide proper nutrition.

Here's some resources to help you determine whether a food will be nutritious and healthy for your poodle. A food doesn't need to be expensive to be very good so don't let that be too big a criteria. After you find a couple to try, your poodle will likely have the final say .

About ingredient lists:

*Why you shouldn’t judge a pet food by its ingredient list*
Although ingredient lists are commonly used by pet owners and most pet food rating sites to determine the quality of pet foods, this approach has many pitfalls and usually is not a good way to select a food.
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Some tips on deciphering dog food labels from:*
Best Dog Food: How to Know What's Right for Your Dog (akc.org)
How to Read a Dog Food Label – American Kennel Club
Your best tool for deciding what to feed your dog is right on the can or bag. But first, you need to know how to read a dog food label.
www.akc.org www.akc.org

Pet Food Labels - General | FDA
Animal Food & Feeds | FDA
Pet Food Labels
The pet food label contains a wealth of information, if one knows how to read it.
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov


*It's Not Just Grain Free *_
This is one of the earlier studies_*

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy*
Dr. Freeman provides an update on diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Questions You Should Be Asking

Questions You Should Be Asking About Your Pet’s Food*
How can you tell about the quality and nutritional expertise of a pet food company? Here are some questions savvy owners should ask companies to select the best possible food for their pets.
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Selecting The Best Food - World Small Animal Veterinary Association*
https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

*AAFCO - Association of American Feed Control Officials
The Role of AAFCO in Pet Food Regulation*

talkspetfood.aafco.org

I wouldn't rule a company out automatically because they have a large advertising budget. That kind of company can probably afford to have veterinary nutritionists on staff to formulate the various foods for various sizes, special needs, and stages.

If you prefer to stick with smaller manufacturers rather than big name companies, remember to look for the AAFCO label on the food, and something I knew to research on appliances but didn't think of doing for dog food til another recent thread. Search for "Who makes *___* dog food?". You might get some surprises, Some familiar names seem to have been traded around like major league athletes for some years now.

Look for the AAFCO label or stamp on any food. FDA and local and state agencies all play a role in regulating pet food and participate in the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO)External Link Disclaimer. While AAFCO itself has no regulatory authority, this voluntary association of local, state, and federal feed control officials works to:_

_Safeguard the health of animals and people;_
_Ensure consumer protection; and_
_Provide a level playing field of orderly commerce for the animal feed industry._

_*Food for thought*

“My primary recommendation would be to look at nutrients rather than ingredients in foods,” says Wortinger*. “The body does not care if the meat is chicken, beef, or reindeer; what it cares about is the amino acids included in the food. The body does not care whether the fat is animal or plant-based, but whether all the essential fatty acids are present. Look at nutrients, not marketing,” she says.

“As with any grain, when higher levels are included in the diet, protein digestibility can go down. That is why there are no ‘all grain’ diets for dogs or cats,” she says. “As a grain, it has a biologic value [a measure of the amount of essential amino acids in a food] of 74; muscle meats, such as beef and chicken, have a BV of about 75. Egg is the gold standard for BV at 100, with whey and casein [milk proteins] just below that.

“When corn is combined with other plant products, they together can easily reach a BV of 100. All plants, due to their cellulose layers, have decreased digestibility when compared to meats. But when ground and cooked, so that the cellulose layer is broken, digestibility is comparable,” Wortinger noted.

*Ann Wortinger BIS, LVT, VTS (ECC, SAIM, Nutrition). She is a veterinary nutritionist who has worked in the field for more than 20 years and is currently the hospital administrator for Animal Cancer and Imaging Center in Canton, Mich.

Jennifer Larsen, DVM, PhD, DACVN, is an associate professor of clinical nutrition at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital (VMTH) at the University of California, Davis. She also does clinical nutritional consulting through the VMTH Nutrition Support Service. She says, “Grains, and any other single category or individual ingredients, are neither good nor bad.

“Rather, what is important is how the ingredients work together to create the full nutritional profile of the diet. Likewise, carbohydrates, as an energy source, are utilized by the body the same way regardless of source, such as grain, legume, or tubers, and different sources of carbohydrates also bring other nutrients, such as fiber, fatty acids, and amino acids. Again, no ingredient has a simple effect since each provides multiple nutrients, and it’s not consumed in a vacuum.”

“It’s important to think of food in terms of energy; animals need energy to live,” says Robert Backus, DVM, PhD, DACVN; he is associate professor and director of the Nestle-Purina Endowed Small Animal Nutrition Program at the University of Missouri. “That energy comes from protein, fats, and carbohydrates. The question is creating the most efficient mix. You could do that with all protein, but the animal would then burn protein for energy, which is inefficient.”

Rebecca Remillard, PhD, DVM, DACVN
*Myth #3:* One can evaluate the ‘quality’ of a pet food by reading the ingredient list.

Remillard says, “Despite aggressive marketing campaigns by various manufacturers and self-appointed websites, the ingredient list according to AAFCO [the Association of American Feed Control Officials] should not impart any information regarding the quality, nutritional balance, or digestibility of the pet food product.

“The ingredient list was simply not designed, or is not regulated, as a measure of pet food quality. So the source of meat or carbohydrates in a pet food is not important to the nutritional profile in a complete and balanced product,” she notes.

*Myth #4:* Corn/grains are non-nutritive ‘fillers.’_

_Whole grains contribute more fiber and vitamins while ground grains are more digestible and provide more protein. Which is chosen will depend on what other ingredients are contained in the food._
_“I've heard concerns about them [grains] being ‘filler,’ which is nonsense,” Larsen says. “They are added because they contribute energy and other essential nutrients, as well as very useful dietary components, such as fiber, which is an underappreciated nutrient.”

Cline similarly relates that corn and other grains can be part of a nutritious pet diet: “Depending on how grains are processed, they can be highly digestible. Some grains contribute dietary fiber to pet foods, which can play an important role in intestinal health.

“Although fiber is not a required nutrient, I find that it can be very beneficial in optimizing the stool quality and the overall health of my patients. Grain-free diets can provide optimal nutrition for cat and dogs, however diets containing grain can do the same.”

Source Busting Myths, Corn and Grain - Best Friends Veterinary Center_


----------



## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

It's so annoying that I can't get Farmina in the UK. It is sometimes available on Amazon but the price is way over the top and most of the time it's not available. I tried emailing them but they never replied.


----------



## Carla (Feb 4, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> In addition to getting brand recommendations, and you may get as many as you have responders, look for foods that are nutritionally balanced produced by companies that have full time veterinary nutritionists on staff, and that carry the AAFCO label on the bag.
> 
> If recalls are a factor, here's the FDA site where that info is collected:
> Refine the Search by using "dog" in the search field.
> ...


Thank you for such a comprehensive and helpful reply! Tjanks for the very helpful links as well! I have a follow-up question: Why does the article say there is no benefit in grain-free except for dogs with allergies? I thought the point of grain-free was to reduce systemic inflammation-- which presumably contributed to problems like arthritis and skin issues, amongst other problems (?)


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Very short answer for now. I'll add detail later. 
A very small number of dogs may actually have allergies to certain grains so that type of food is appropriate for them. 
Something likely brought the idea of grain free to the forefront of the food buying public and it simply became a trend. 
If you hear that a product is "free" of something the unconscious assumption is that whatever its "free" of is bad. 
I bought into this myself until I started doing the research on only medical or science sites. 
I believe that more than anything, it just became a trend.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

To reiterate what Rose said (and what's included in several links), there's no correlation between DCM and grain-free. The correlation is between DCM and certain legume pulses that are used in dog foods, and these pulses are used in higher volume in certain grain-free food but also certain grain-inclusive foods. The ingredient to look out for is actually legume pulses, like lentils and beans. Eating legumes in small quantities is ok for dogs (and has been done for decades if not centuries), but a high volume of legume pulses is problematic. Not all grain-free foods use legume pulses, and not all grain-inclusive foods avoid them.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Here’s a good excerpt from that link:

“_FDA has received reports of non-hereditary DCM associated with both grain-free and grain-containing diets. Most of the diets associated with reports of non-hereditary DCM have non-soy legumes and pulses (e.g., peas, lentils, etc.) high in their ingredient lists. However, it is important to note that legumes and pulses have been used in pet foods for many years, with no evidence to indicate they are inherently dangerous. CVM’s data show that pulse ingredients are likely used in many ‘grain-free’ diets in greater proportion than in most grain-containing formulas._”


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Carla said:


> I thought the point of grain-free was to reduce systemic inflammation-- which presumably contributed to problems like arthritis and skin issues, amongst other problems (?)


In the time I've been researching, I've not run across grain free mentioned in relation to systemic inflammation, or linked to arthritis or skin issues. 

Searching for any sort of studies, or reference on any of the vet news sites gets no hits on grain free and systemic inflammation. My first search topic was "grain free dog food systemic inflammation". There were a few sites touching on this but they're also selling something so they go in the Ignore pile. 

I added "study" to the search and found some human studies, one which suggests that _grain inclusive _is beneficial to reducing systemic inflammation. Still no hits on anything to do with dogs. It's rare not to find anything from a medical source if that topic has been studied.

I'm going to check Google Scholar next. Annnnd nothing there either discussing or investigating grain free dog food and effects on systemic inflammation, arthritis, or skin conditions. 


The closest I can find for info on when or why grain free became a big thing from sources I consider reliable say basically the same thing. It may have existed prior to 2007 but that was when the melamine found in manufactured food cost the health and lives of many dogs. With the press coverage and behavior that grew from that, we have the current state. 

_Grain-Free Pet Food Trend a Hoax?_
_written by Donna Solomon, DVM
Today I started thinking about the grain-free pet food trend that is currently in vogue. First, I wondered how this craze evolved. I* know it definitely did not originate in the professional veterinary community. I speculate that this movement was triggered in part by a pet food company’s advertising campaign to generate a buzz around their unique pet food. I also suspect this pet food fad may be tied to the 2007 pet food contamination of wheat gluten with melamine*, an industrial chemical used to make plastic. This tragic situation caused thousands of pets to become ill and many died of kidney failure. I believe pet food buyers felt betrayed by the big food companies and were actively looking for alternative diets._


Grain-Free Pet Food Trend a Hoax? (animalmedicalcenterofchicago.com)


_*The concern about gluten in dog foods most probably was triggered in 2007 when there was a headline making recall of tainted Chinese dog kibble. This occurred because the wheat gluten from a particular supplier was contaminated with melamine (which can cause kidney failure). Those news reports may have been enough to usher in the wave of fear about wheat and gluten in dog food. It seems that this initial scare then spiraled out of control, expanding to include worries about all grains, including corn, barley, and even rice.*

As often happens with the dissemination of information concerning human diets, bits of real knowledge are blown up and mixed with misinformation. Ultimately the resulting flawed combination of assertions then becomes an entrenched popular belief. Because this material is spread through the media and the Internet such opinions can become widespread with a disconcerting speed and ease._

Why Have So Many People Decided That Dogs Can't Eat Grains? | Psychology Today

Even an industry site mentions in 2019 that grain free has only been around for something more than a decade.

The Rise and Fall of Grain-Free Pet Food
By
Krystle Morrison
-
October 25, 2019

_It’s been more than a decade since grain-free pet formulas hit the shelves and attracted curious consumers.* Owners made the switch because they believed the absence of grains was healthier for their pets*. Some even thought their pets had developed intolerances for common grain ingredients like corn, wheat, rice, and oats.
Veterinarians, however, claim that grain-free diets are not necessarily healthier than grain-inclusive diets. They argue that whole grains, in particular, shouldn’t be considered as fillers — they contain valuable nutrients, and the vast majority of domestic dogs and cats can digest them with ease. Furthermore, studies have demonstrated that grain allergies in dogs and cats are rare. Instead, chicken, beef, and dairy products are the most common causes of adverse food reactions. 
Despite caution against the hype, grain-free sales continued to grow, and it seemed like there would be no turning back — until now. _

The Rise and Fall of Grain-Free Pet Food - Food Industry Executive


"_*Owners made the switch because they believed the absence of grains was healthier for their pets..."*_

I just can't find the science to support the belief, at least not so far.


----------



## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

When I had my first dog about 25 years ago I never even read the label on her dog food packaging. I would probably be horrified to see the ingredient list now. Even so she lived for more than 16 healthy years. I believe it's because she was never allowed to become overweight and was always on the leaner side. In my opinion, weight, even a little bit is far more dangerous for a dog than whether it should have grains or not.

Edit: obviously if the dog has allergies, that is a different reason to avoid ingredients.


----------



## cNJ (Apr 11, 2020)

curious thing: my previous dog would not eat dog food with peas in it.
I had a sample of a food that had actual peas in it and he ate the food but 
meticulously picked the peas out and left them. so we went back to his old food 
and I read ingredients to avoid any with peas or pea protein.


----------



## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I fed Peggy Farmina puppy kibble, which is pea-free:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you having any problems with HK clusters being out of stock? I live in San Diego County, which is the county HK is made in, and for the last few months my automatic order has been delayed or cancelled because the clusters are out of stock. I keep some of the dehydrated for back up, but Sailor is rather picky now. I hate to make any major changes because of Sailor's age...


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Charmed said:


> Are you having any problems with HK clusters being out of stock? I live in San Diego County, which is the county HK is made in, and for the last few months my automatic order has been delayed or cancelled because the clusters are out of stock. I keep some of the dehydrated for back up, but Sailor is rather picky now. I hate to make any major changes because of Sailor's age...


Our local petfood store (a small independent store) was having a hard time getting our preferred bag size, so they sold us the equivalent smaller bags at the same price. But they all seem to be in stock online: THE HONEST KITCHEN Grain-Free Beef Whole Food Clusters Dry Dog Food, 20-lb bag - Chewy.com

Do you order from Chewy?

Maybe buy a few extra bags for backup. As long as you don’t open them, they should keep fine.


----------



## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Our local petfood store (a small independent store) was having a hard time getting our preferred bag size, so they sold us the equivalent smaller bags at the same price. But they all seem to be in stock online: THE HONEST KITCHEN Grain-Free Beef Whole Food Clusters Dry Dog Food, 20-lb bag - Chewy.com
> 
> Do you order from Chewy?
> 
> Maybe buy a few extra bags for backup. As long as you don’t open them, they should keep fine.


I have been ordering directly from the company and sometimes from Chewy, both are out of the Chicken with or with out grain, and even the oatmeal. One of mine is allergic to beef and turkey, so I just avoid giving it to any of them. I do have a small stock pile. I really do not want to have to pay the higher price for small bags. Ugh.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Charmed said:


> I have been ordering directly from the company and sometimes from Chewy, both are out of the Chicken with or with out grain, and even the oatmeal. One of mine is allergic to beef and turkey, so I just avoid giving it to any of them. I do have a small stock pile. I really do not want to have to pay the higher price for small bags. Ugh.


Looks like Petco.com has the 20 lb bags in stock (chicken, grain-free). But I would email Honest Kitchen and ask them if this is going to be an ongoing issue. I wonder if it’s covid-related. It’s affecting availability of the most seemingly random things.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> It’s affecting availability of the most seemingly random things.


That's no kidding. Latest on my shopping list to disappear is Premium brand mini crackers. I asked a soda brand rep in the store a while back why and he explained that manufacturers have been focusing on their big sellers and only running production of the less popular items when they had enough of the other to meet demand. That might be what's happening here.


----------



## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I just got another out of stock notice from Honest Kitchen and they are saying the delays are related to Covid. I decided to start mixing Chewy's premixed frozen raw with the HK that I have left. Sailor thinks he has died and gone to heaven!


----------

