# I think I will be forced to do it myself - scissors?



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I am in the same boat as you! I love my groomer, she treats us great! And the price is fantastic for a large poodle  To be honest, I've not yet asked her for anything other than a basic shave down, but we are in a class with a poodle that is perfectly scissored (her owner is a breeder/groomer), and I am envious!!! My groomer was taught the art of grooming by a poodle groomer/breeder, and her mentor was an aunt that was also a poodle breeder/groomer, so I know she can or has done it. I can do the bath, dry & brush out ... but the scissors and blade work terrify me. So, next session, I am going to ask her for scissoring, but I will do the bath, dry and brush out


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am the opposite. The bath, brushing, blowing, shaving are so time consuming. I think I could do the scissoring. I think...

I want her scissored short on the belly, I want a waist to show, close on the rear by the tail, straight down on her back legs and the front of her front legs, a topknot with a little shelf in front of her eyes, long fluffy ears, a round or oval tail poof. I want her neck left longer on the top than on the sides. I have watched the video I posted above a bunch of times. 

I can do it, right? Hmmm.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm jealous of you guys. I'm jealous because you guys really care about your poodles and take care of their coats. My clients have poodles they keep outside. They bring me pelted, flea-infested messes and expect a show cut. I've only done one "long" cut which was just an A comb all over. They brought him again THREE-AND-A-HALF months later wanting the same long cut. I had to shave him down. ALL my client poodles are shave downs *sigh* At least I can practice on my own poodle :/

Outwest, if you want everyday scissors, you can try the Kenchii Spiders. That's what I use. It's a beveled edge - good for everyday scissoring. There's also finishing shears that are good for smoothing out the overall look (concave edge).


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> I am the opposite. The bath, brushing, blowing, shaving are so time consuming. I think I could do the scissoring. I think...
> 
> I want her scissored short on the belly, I want a waist to show, close on the rear by the tail, straight down on her back legs and the front of her front legs, a topknot with a little shelf in front of her eyes, long fluffy ears, a round or oval tail poof. I want her neck left longer on the top than on the sides. I have watched the video I posted above a bunch of times.
> 
> I can do it, right? Hmmm.


Did ya see the pics I posted of the poodles from Atlanta Pet Fair? There were gorgeous poodles there! What poodles SHOULD looks like IMO! Lol (not saying short all-over pet clips are bad)


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Hey Outwest, do you live anywhere near the San Fernando or Conejo Valleys? I know fantastic poodle-specialist groomers in both places. (Guess I can never move, huh?)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I just checked to see how long- Conejo valley is 78 miles away and San Fernando is 49 miles away driving smack into all that LA traffic. I live in Claremont. Thanks for thinking of me, though!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> Outwest, if you want everyday scissors, you can try the Kenchii Spiders. That's what I use. It's a beveled edge - good for everyday scissoring. There's also finishing shears that are good for smoothing out the overall look (concave edge).


All I can find on line are a full set of Kenchii Spiders or a single Kenchii Scorpion? I will keep looking for a single Spider


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## Nova (Mar 11, 2012)

What a fantastic video, thanks for sharing it!

My sister has been grooming her own poodle for years and is teaching me how to do it. As soon as Laila's fur grows out (a few more weeks I think), she'll do her first official cut.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Outwest, I think what you want to do sounds like a grat idea! As a groomer, I suggest you word things carefully to not hurt any feelings, or burn any bridges. I wouldn't be "offended" exactly to hear a client no longer wanted me to do the cut since I just can't get it right, but it sure would hurt my feelings! : P I'd tell her you want to do the cuts yourself because you think it'd be fun/neat/etc., rather than mentioning that you're not satisfied with the way she's been doing it. I know, on the one hand, how can she get better if she isn't told the truth, but on the other, you've already shown her pictures, made sugestions and given her chances and she's just not getting it right for you. Not all groomers art artists, and I think sometimes it takes a certain eye to get the haircuts just right! Many wonderful groomers will get your dog very clean, tangle free, clipped for maintanance and all with a smile and a compassionate hand - it doesn't mean they can also give them the right look. At the same time, if she's working for commission or hourly pay, she may only have so much time for Bonnie and can't take all that she needs to learn how to do this and, really, practice on Bonnie! Like Tokipoke's clients, chances are good that few, if any, of hers ask for "real" Poodle cuts! I recall a Toy I used to groom a few years ago whose mom always wanted to do something fun and Poodley! I was working for someone else at the time, and really had to finish about a dog an hour. I just didn't have time to do what she (and I) really wanted. She was always happy with the grooms, anyway, but ended up finding another groomer after an altercation with my boss. : ( How I *wish* I had her as a client now that I work on my own!! I'm finally able to put in more time and attention to detail. Maybe she'll find me. : ) Anyway, just thought I'd throw in a groomer's perspective for some possible explaination! 

Good luck with your new grooming adventures! I have a feeling in time you'll be asking what type of dryer to get, too. ; ) You can do it!


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## sgeorge (Jul 31, 2011)

I don't think your groomer would be offended, particularly if you stay with her for FFT and baths. But I think I would phrase it something along the lines of you wanting to be more involved in the grooming process and are attempting to learn it yourself.

As a non-groomer, I also, eventually, want to do a reasonable job maintaining Fleur's coat. I used some sharp hair scissor the other day to neaten her waist up before we went for our groom and I think I did a reasonable job, well from what I could see! I think if you have a clear idea of what you want in your head and a few reference pictures you should be fine. Maybe not perfectly scissored, but it'll be exactly what you want.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

outwest, i traveled nearly 4 hours away to get grooming 101 lesson. it was worth it. i also take temperance and seelie to gloria's (tintlet) which is 1 hr 15 minutes away. it's worth it. i've learned enough to keep up with the grooms until it's time to get them all spiffed up properly.

i can wash/dry/ and clip face feet and tail decently enough.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I definitely think you can do it outwest...like you said, you have a picture of what you want in your mind; that's half the battle right there. My teacher told me while I was scissoring my first topknot: "I don't even need to watch you while you scissor this topknot...you have a picture in your head of what it should look like, so you end up doing things right." And you know what, she was right. Sure, it wasn't perfect, but it was pretty darn good!! I had the general shape and style right. So I say get yourself a pair of scissors and get going! Yeah, it's going to be hard at first, especially as you learn to hold and move the scissors correctly, but once that becomes habit then it's just a matter of learning how to get that nice, smooth finish. 

And I'm with Pummipoodle, when you tell your groomer that you would like to do Bonnie's scissoring, come at it from a "I want to learn this" rather than a "I don't like how you do it" angle. I would be hurt if someone told me they were going to do it themselves because they didn't like what I was doing.  Also, telling her that you want to save some money may make it easier for her to understand, too. 

Good luck on your new adventure, and we'll want pictures for sure!! Actually, I find that posting pics for others to look at and critique helps a lot.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't want to hurt the groomers feelings at all. I really like her groomer a lot. I just want some POODLE CUTS. Bonnie is 14 months old and we have been going every two weeks since I got her. I plan to continue to go every two weeks. I don't mind paying the same I have been paying, either. 

Thank you for the suggestions on how to phrase it.  I think if I say it from the perspective that I want to learn how to scissor her myself, but would like her to do everything else, she won't be upset. I will think carefully and practice how to say it so she knows I still really like her. I wish she was interested in making Bonnie look fabulous, but it is what it is. 

Wish me luck. I am going to check out all those really pricey scissors. LOL


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

The Chris Christensen shears are nice too--I have the Celestial Apollo straight/curved and the Luna set too. (Also have the Original short shank 7" set.) They just came out with another series called "Jasmine" that's between the Original and the Celestial. 

Check out the savings with the Group Buy before you decide.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

I have the scorpion 7 in straight and a 7 inch Monk curved. I think they are pretty much the same for people like us who groom our own dogs only...we don't have to worry about had fatigue.

If you can get your breeder to groom scissor for you a coupe of times you coul learn alot. I'm always present when mine are groomed and I do everything but the scissoring when I use a groomer. That way I go at a certain time and she starts on my fog immediately and I get a lesson in scissoring ! I first used scissors in the presence of my groomer ... Most will not mind teaching you...especially if all they have to do is scissor. You wont be in the way...like you might be if they were doing a complete groom. Good luck...take lots of photos to share!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

outwest said:


> All I can find on line are a full set of Kenchii Spiders or a single Kenchii Scorpion? I will keep looking for a single Spider


Most of the Kenchiis will be in a set. The Spider has 8" straights and curves, and a 44-tooth thinning shear. I think you'll like the set, especially having the curves. Shears are a very individual thing so you may end up liking another brand better. I picked up some CC shears (don't know which kind), but they felt really heavy to me. I have very petite hands so the lighter and short shank, the better. I also have to use the rubber thumb/finger rings with all my shears. Sometimes I gotta double up on the rubber adjusters so my thumb doesn't go through the shear's thumbhole. Whatever shears you go with, make sure you learn to hold them properly. It helps with scissoring and hand fatigue.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Scissoring is not that difficult its the tight blending that can be a pain. You can do it if you really want to though. I do it and I swear if I can pull it off just about anyone could. (I am not a patient person)

Good scissors are key! So good to find those and clipper. I use the curved more than my straight ones, its nice having both. 

Off note I had to reread this to realize this was Bonnie  she was so well behaved considering all the background noise! 

Also one question, I have always been told or at least read multiple times to NOT short cut with clippers by skimming the long hair. Is this true? I'd love to hear NO - as I have been tempted to do that "sculpting" the woman mentioned.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I agree with the others, groomers tend to be sensitive souls esp about their work. Most of us have a lot of pride in our work, and having a client tell them their work is below their expectations can be hurtful. Telling her you want to learn to scissor yourself is easier to take... perhaps telling her you have had an interest in possible showing your own poodle and want to learn the scissoring skills needed.. Also still bringing her to get partial grooms is very nice of you.

As for scissors I love my CC starlite straights with the holes in them. I have small hands and they are short shanked and light. I swear I feel like Im scissoring with light sabers lol. Pretty big discount in the group buy. I think learning to groom with straights will make you learn to be a better groomer as it is harder to make things round with straights than with curves lol. I like both straights and curves myself. I have also tried sharfin shears and those are really nice and possibly even sharper than my CCs lol. Plus the pivoting thumb ring is more comfortable to me.. its amazing to me to see how much or little it moves according to how one scissors lol.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Olie said:


> Also one question, I have always been told or at least read multiple times to NOT short cut with clippers by skimming the long hair. Is this true? I'd love to hear NO - as I have been tempted to do that "sculpting" the woman mentioned.


Well IMO if your scissoring skills are solid then "short cuts" are fine to save time. But if not its like using a calculator to learn math.. your skills never really grow and sometimes they regress. I have thought about using clippers on my toy but I always end up handscissoring instead.. YOu can also hide more faults by handscissoring completly JMO.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

*Olie*, I sculpt with clippers all the time, but I will mention that it takes a lot of practice, like everything else. I'm not very fast at hand-scissoring, but I am expected to get dogs done in a short amount of time at work, so sometimes in a time pinch, I sculpt with a short blade. I use it mainly get a tight, scissored-looking finish in a short time. It's very much like carving, but with hair. Depending on the look I want, I use a #40, #10, or a #7F. The last is what I use on double-coated dogs, it leaves a very natural finish, almost like you used thinning shears. Heck, I don't even know how to trim a Golden butt with scissors anymore, I can do it perfectly perky-looking retriever tush by skimming the shape in. But for poodles and other curlies, I want a very crisp finish, so its a #40. I do a Kerry Blue Terrier who gets huge stovepipe legs, and its almost easier and faster to do them by skimming (especially since I use up most of my time getting him brushed out properly because he's a feisty turd).

If you don't have a good mental picture of where the dog's skin is in relation to its hair length, you can very easily take off too much and leave a hole. If the dog moves or leans at the wrong time, you can scoop a chunk out, just like scissoring. So it's not very useful for a wiggler. And you'll still have to tidy feet and other edges with scissors. 

I have heard some grooming competitions have a class where you're expected to do the whole thing with clipper-sculpting, no scissors allowed (I saw a picture of an Old English Sheepdog in a very stylized teddybear that was apparently one of these classes, but that was several years back). So, I don't believe it's a no-no. It's just another way of doing things.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I have seen the clipper skimming method to get clean lines. But yikes! I'd be nervous to use that method cause most of my clients are wigglers, some tap dancers. Their legs would end up looking like Swiss cheese.

For competition, I see some people using the snap-on comb to get bulk hair off, but of course more points and consideration is given to a completely hand scissored dog. It's amazing to see some groomers sculpt a poodle by shears alone. There's also a secret to getting clean lines without clippers - use chunkers! Basically like thinning shears or blenders, but with less teeth. I just bought a 24-tooth 8" one and it was really great cleaning up a collie-shep mix's butt. Many groomers in the Open division of the poodle class will go over their dog with the chunkers. Most of the ones they use look like 24-tooth, but you can find 15 and 8 tooth! I always thought thinning shears was a no-no with poodle hair, but the experts never cut INTO the hair with them, just skim the top of the hair to give a finished look.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It sounds like I should get a curved and a straight scissor. I thought 7 inches would be better than 8 for me, but maybe I should get the 8 inch ones. I hope they last a long time because they are really expensive! I had no idea...

If you watched the video: How long are the scissors in that video? I would like ones that length.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

why don't you take bonnie to get her properly groomed at a good groomer and THEN take her to your groomer and ask her to follow the pattern set.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am so excited!  

I took Bonnie to the groomer today. I told them I wanted to learn to scissor her because I thought it would be fun to play with her hair. Both groomers were very excited and not at all offended!  They even brought out all their scissors for me to pick up and try. Some were really long, some short, some ultra expensive, some with blunt ends, some with razor sharp ends. 

We settled on getting me two pairs of Mercedes 7 1/4 inch scissors- one curved, one straight - plus one pair of 4 1/2 inch ball tipped Paw Brothers. They felt I really needed all three if I was going to do this. I wasn't planning on getting the ball ended ones, but they said since I was a beginner, I needed to use those around the eyes. 

I liked the Mercedes the best. The length felt like I could control them plus they are light weight. They are not very expensive compared to many of the scissors ($58.00 a piece). The groomers said with only one spoo, who is well maintained, they should be perfect and last a long time. One groomer said even though she has some expensive scissors, she finds herself grabbing these Mercedes instead because they are so comfortable, lightweight and balanced plus they cut nicely. 

They left Bonnie unscissored so that after her next bath in two weeks I would have my scissors and have lots of fluff to work with. We arranged an extra half hour at my next appointment for a lesson!! 

I love my groomer, even if she doesn't know all the poodle cuts.



faerie said:


> why don't you take bonnie to get her properly groomed at a good groomer and THEN take her to your groomer and ask her to follow the pattern set.


I know, I know. I had her breeder set a pattern and the groomer was able to follow the pattern for a while, but since she was shaved down in January, the pattern disappeared.  I decided I would do it myself. 

Now I have to think about a grooming table.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> I am so excited!
> 
> I took Bonnie to the groomer today. I told them I wanted to learn to scissor her because I thought it would be fun to play with her hair. Both groomers were very excited and not at all offended!  They even brought out all their scissors for me to pick up and try. Some were really long, some short, some ultra expensive, some with blunt ends, some with razor sharp ends.
> 
> ...


Wonderful news! I think you will get very good at it too. You look at poodles all the time and you know what you want. I get frustrated with it at times because I can get the basic shape I want...I know where to cut I just am not very smooth with it yet. Mine looks good at first but doesnt look great for long...Ive had countless "lessons" lol from my groomer..and now she has moved away. But I do have a new groomer..she has a poodle too. But she is new to poodledom  But she is excited to learn. I lent her my Kalstone book. Good luck to you and I look forward to your progress photos  And congrats on getting the scissors! Sounds like you will have all you need.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Glad to hear the idea is going well.....


Beautiful Groomer, I give you my heart,
To help me with Bonnie and give me a start.

Your scissors are awesome, I love how they feel,
The price is in reason, it creates appeal.

My cutting is new, I'll be learning alot,
I hope that my baby will give me a shot.

I know if she's thinking, "I'll get to play ball,"
I'll have her attention and give it my all.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

petitpie said:


> Glad to hear the idea is going well.....
> 
> 
> Beautiful Groomer, I give you my heart,
> ...


Petitiepie, wow, are you talented yourself! LOL


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*Outwesst*,

Thanks, glad you like Bonnie's.....sort of silliness......I'd like to be about to learn how to scissor my poodle, as you are.....good luck!


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

We're lucky- we have a cheap as anything groomer who has owned poodles her whole life. I have no idea how she grooms other breeds, but she's great with poodle clips (Jasper's in a miami right now, and she always does a good job and has commented on how much she enjoys grooming a poodle in something other than a pet clip, which seems to be the norm.) I'd love to learn how to do him myself- she's cheap, but not free- but so far haven't got up the courage to try it. I know, it's only hair, it will grow...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Jasperspoo, I figure I can't hurt her too badly.  Heck, I used to shave dogs when I was a vet tech in college.  How hard can it be? I guess I'll find out.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I got my scissors! Ooooo...they're beautiful. snip, snip, snip. I was so tempted to have at it right away, but I was too tired after work. Not a good time to start.


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