# Evaluating a breeder - too many dogs?



## Toronto_Toyseeker (Apr 16, 2012)

I recently came across Classy Companion Poodles - Home which seems to have a number of pups available.

My concern is that there are 23 girls and 6 studs.

Should I be concerned?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Considering half the picture of the females have their pictures taken inside crates or behind chicken wire, yeah, you should avoid this one too.


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## Toronto_Toyseeker (Apr 16, 2012)

*Fluffyspoos:* Thanks! So beyond the conditions the dogs appear to be being kept in, as a general rule, do top breeders almost never have this many dogs?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Yes. I would most certainly be concerned. It is hard to imagine that anyone could properly care for this many dogs. Also, there is no information about health testing on the site. 

Maybe a forum member could suggest a good breeder for you?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it is difficult to make hard and fast rules - one breeder I know also runs a breed and small dog rescue. She sometimes has a lot of dogs, but not dogs she is breeding. Some people will have dogs on co-ownership, so that the dog gets the advantages of a happy home life while also having the occasional litter. Given how much work goes into breeding and raising a litter of pups, though, 29 breeding dogs sounds a pretty considerable commitment. But I would run from any breeder who photographed dogs behind wire for their website, even if they only had one or two!


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Although that is alot of dogs the photos show they appear well groomed. I would definitely want to see the facility in person. It depends on how much staff they have to take care of the dogs. Most breeders are in home but there are some that employ staff and keep more dogs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

peppersb said:


> Yes. I would most certainly be concerned. It is hard to imagine that anyone could properly care for this many dogs. Also, there is no information about health testing on the site.
> 
> Maybe a forum member could suggest a good breeder for you?


I did already...Denali and Duenna...both within easy driving distance of Toronto.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

They let a buyer put a small non-refundable deposit on a puppy online by name or number with paypal. That's too easy.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Having a co-owner is fine, but it doesn't appear this one does.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Have you looked at this breeder?

Adanac Poodles of Canada - Home


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## Toronto_Toyseeker (Apr 16, 2012)

*schnauzerpoodle:* Yes, thank you for the suggestion, I have already talked to them and was put on a wait list but the poodles would not be ready until mid-july at the earliest


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

If you think this is a good breeder and that you like their dogs, then wait patiently. Three months is not that bad. There are many of us who have waited for 10+ months for the right puppy.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I just e-mailed my breeder for information on Toys, knowing she has some there. Here is her *edited* reply;

Frank: If the lady is interested, she can come to C*****e to view them. Please emphasize that they are NOT C*****e poodles, but KEJA poodles and the Fargey's would have all the testing info.

That would be nice to mention that Ken & Jacquie Fargey have two beautiful silver male pups available for sale. They will be at C*****e for a couple more weeks before they are flown back to the Fargeys in Alberta.

Both parents are CKC Champions.

Born Feb 28th. Tails docked, dew claws removed. Socialized.
At 8 weeks of age, one small male, weighing 2lbs 11oz and the other slightly larger male weighing 3lbs 10oz
Both are up-to-date on shots
and will be micro-chipped

the Fargey's are asking $1,400.00 each


My breeder is 45 minutes North of the 401.

I wish u luck in yr search.


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## Toronto_Toyseeker (Apr 16, 2012)

*Countryboy*: I have contacted the Fargeys to find out about female pups, thanks for the lead!


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Toronto_Toyseeker : I could have a puppy in 3 weeks. But i had concerned about my breeder, so i changed. Now, i am with another breeder, which i fully trust, but i will only have my puppy in mid-july. I chose to wait, to have an healthy puppy and the best buying experience possible. That is my choice, and i'm happy about it. With the last breeder, i always had doubts...

The people here are experienced. I follow their advises. And don't regret!


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Toronto_Toyseeker said:


> *Countryboy*: I have contacted the Fargeys to find out about female pups, thanks for the lead!


I have talked to Keja before. BEAUTIFUL dogs. Very responsive, helpful and knowledgable lady. Although reds and silvers are their specialty, they have beautiful blacks too.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Aww thanx, S/P. I'm glad to hear that.  

I'm always a bit apprehensive abt linking potential buyers and sellers. 'Specially when the sellers are people I only met once . . . basically friends of friends. Nice people, but that's all I know abt them. 

A few of their dogs were at the kennels last Summer so I got to hang with them for a bit. They were yr usual Toys . . cute as buttons!!  lol


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I put links of breeders ONLY when I have personally communicated with them more than 3 times AND that I have received at least one positive feedback from another poodle breeder/owner that I think I can trust.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Toronto_Toyseeker said:


> I recently came across Classy Companion Poodles - Home which seems to have a number of pups available.
> 
> My concern is that there are 23 girls and 6 studs.
> 
> Should I be concerned?


The number of dogs alone is not an accurate judgement. I worked for a breeder that had about the same number of dogs living on-site, plus females fostered out to families in the area that would come in for breeding and whelping.

But,

This breeder had a full-time kennel manager, 2 full-time kennel employees and 2 part-time kennel employees, plus groundskeepers and office help.

These dogs had an idyllic life. 

It's not just the number of dogs but the resources the breeder has available and expends on the dogs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> The number of dogs alone is not an accurate judgement. I worked for a breeder that had about the same number of dogs living on-site, plus females fostered out to families in the area that would come in for breeding and whelping.
> 
> But,
> 
> ...


I don't care how many people are working there. I would never want a puppy raised in a kennel environment. JMO.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't care how many people are working there. I would never want a puppy raised in a kennel environment. JMO.


Same here... Raised underfoot, in a home, or I'm not interested. JMO, too!


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Most K9 dogs are raised in a kennel environment and turn out to be the best of the best. If a german shepard dog can grow up in a kennel then I am sure a poodle can do better. (since poodles are the best of the best).


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I've seen a lot of puppies raised to an age of 6 or 8 weeks. They are never raised in a kennel. 

In fact, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that it's impossible to keep puppies in a kennel. They must be in the house in order to be cared for properly. U've got to know, at all times, where they are and what they're up to. 

And, with my breeder, they are . . . in the house . . and cared for . . always.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Poodlemama99 said:


> Most K9 dogs are raised in a kennel environment and turn out to be the best of the best. If a german shepard dog can grow up in a kennel then I am sure a poodle can do better. (since poodles are the best of the best).


What does this even mean? I am not following your logic. German Shepards raised in kennels turn out to be the best of the best? According to whom? What type of life does a K9 dog live? Is it different from that of most poodles, whom are companion poodles? Why would poodles, a breed that thrives on human interaction, "do better"? A poodle has a temperament quite different from a German Shepard and lives a life quite different from a K9 dog. A kennel raised poodle will have different experiences from a home raised poodle. 

If I am purchasing a poodle (who will inevitably be my lifelong a companion), I won't even consider purchasing a puppy that was not raised in a household, underfoot, as a member of the family. This ensures the adjustment to such a life will be quite minor.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

In addition to having the puppies raised in the house, I would want the momma dog to be a regular resident of the house. I would want the momma dog to be an emotionally healthy, happy dog. I'd want her delivering her puppies in her own home with the love and support of her own humans. The mother dog is the one who will be caring for the pups in the first weeks of their lives, and I would think that she would do a better job if she is happy and secure and at home. My opinion for what it is worth.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Where I live k9 dogs stay with their handler police officer 24-7 living in their home and working together. They are given the best medical care available as they cost around $15K to purchase and raise and train to become police k9dogs. They certainly live a better quality of life than most companion dogs as they are companions to their officer 24/7365.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Poodlemama99 said:


> Where I live k9 dogs stay with their handler police officer 24-7 living in their home and working together. They are given the best medical care available as they cost around $15K to purchase and raise and train to become police k9dogs. They certainly live a better quality of life than most companion dogs as they are companions to their officer 24/7365.


Police K9s are working dogs, not pets, regardless of where they sleep at night. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Those police K9s bred to work, raised in kennels, trained to work, would not do well if placed with a family that only wanted a "pet."


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Poodlemama99 said:


> Where I live k9 dogs stay with their handler police officer 24-7 *living in their home *and working together. They are given the best medical care available as they cost around $15K to purchase and raise and train to become police k9dogs. They certainly live a better quality of life than most companion dogs as they are companions to their officer 24/7365.


HUH? I'm not following. But you said,

Originally Posted by Poodlemama99 
Most K9 dogs are raised in a *kennel environment* and turn out to be the best of the best. If a german shepard dog can grow up in a kennel then I am sure a poodle can do better. (since poodles are the best of the best).

What are you trying to say?


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

For me, the difference is exactly what Poodlemama stated; i.e. they are "raised and then trained to be K9 police dogs". I don't want my pet behaving like a K9 police dog. And, they may live in "a home", but they are living in a trained policeman's home, not just any home.

I am in agreement, I would not seek out any dog that was raised in a kennel. I am not a policeman and I am not seeking K9 behavior attributed in any of my pets.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

plumcrazy said:


> Same here... Raised underfoot, in a home, or I'm not interested. JMO, too!


Dogs can be neglected in any environment. I don't want a puppy that has been raised permissively indoors. I don't want to waste valuable time (referring to the training potential before 12 weeks) fixing lazy indoor puppy raising. I would far rather have a puppy that has had individual training time and exposure to new environments starting at 4 weeks old. This puppy learns the people are for interacting with and getting reward from, versus the lazy-house-raised puppy that learns that people take away "fun toys" (socks, for example).

The location doesn't matter. The interaction with people matters!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Ladywolfe said:


> I am in agreement, I would not seek out any dog that was raised in a kennel. I am not a policeman and I am not seeking K9 behavior attributed in any of my pets.


Puppies raised to be police K9's are taught to be engaged, active learners. To play tug and fetch within the rules of the game. I could go on and on. I used to raise police K9 puppies. I would start taking them home with me at about 8 weeks old, making sure they had no environment sensetivities.

Police K9's have to be house trained and docile pets when they're not working. They live with their handler's and family. They need equal as much house manners as your poodle, maybe more since police K9 handlers often have little or no dog experience and limited training.

The behaviors you love in your poodle are the same that make a police dog, just less intense due to_ breeding _(not raising). I picked my mpoo for the behaviors I loved training and shaping in working dogs - but in a lower-maintenance body since my health is not what it was.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

All I was trying to say is i would not dismiss a kennel raised puppy simply on that basis. I got my Lila from a breeder who wanted to use her as a momma but she remained too small. She was never socialized with other poodles and never played with toys etc. When she came to us she was quiet and introverted. She turned out to be the most wonderful sweet girl and I was blessed with her for 12 1/2 years. Had I not given her the chance I hate to think of what her outcome might have been.

That was all I was trying to say.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I think a dog raised in a kennel might take more time, but it does not make a dog that can not learn. It does not make a dog less loving . I am sure a kennel raised pup can turn out as nice as any house raised dog, however, I would not buy one because I hate kennels and would not want to support that kind of treatment of any dog. It's not the dogs fault, but I would not want to help the person doing that continue.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> I think a dog raised in a kennel might take more time, but it does not make a dog that can not learn. It does not make a dog less loving . I am sure a kennel raised pup can turn out as nice as any house raised dog, however, I would not buy one because I hate kennels and would not want to support that kind of treatment of any dog. It's not the dogs fault, but I would not want to help the person doing that continue.


That's interesting. Are you a USA or UK member?

I see home breeder and immediately think "backyard breeder" and shy away. At least with a kennel environment, it is very easy to pick out the good breeders from the bad ones.

Clearly I've been too close to people that think they are wonderful home breeders, but are backyard breeders who don't raise puppies well. And I had a great experience working at the kennel that loves on and spoils their dogs.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Poodlemama99 said:


> All I was trying to say is i would not dismiss a kennel raised puppy simply on that basis. I got my Lila from a breeder who wanted to use her as a momma but she remained too small. She was never socialized with other poodles and never played with toys etc. When she came to us she was quiet and introverted. She turned out to be the most wonderful sweet girl and I was blessed with her for 12 1/2 years. Had I not given her the chance I hate to think of what her outcome might have been.


That's exactly the problem. No poodle should ever be kept in a place where she is never socialized and never plays with toys and just lives to produce puppies. I got my first poodle from a breeder like that. My Sophie was a retiring momma dog and I got her when she was 6. I just hate to think of what the first 6 years of her life were like.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

tortoise said:


> And I had a great experience working at the kennel that loves on and spoils their dogs.


If I was looking for another dog, I would go back to the 'kennel' where Tonka was born before I looked anywhere else. 

The puppies are whelped in the bedroom/office where there's an adult awake with them 24/7. Removed from the whelping pens at four weeks and moved to the living room . . . surrounded by people, toys, ringing telephones, vacumn cleaners and all other distractions of home life.

...................................................

I think there may be a confusion over semantics here. Maybe what some of y'all are imagining, when u hear the work 'kennel', is what I would call a 'run', or runs. Concrete floors, 7 foot high chain link fencing, an indoor part that the dogs can access on colder days . . . and the like... 

I can't imagine puppies set out in a run, or even a kennel building that included runs. Puppies should be in the house.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Tort, I am in the U.S.A. 

By a kennel dog, I mean a dog that is kept outside in a pen most of it's life. I don't want a BYB either! I want a dog home raised, kept in the home with a family. My dog came from this type of home. I don't know how the stud dogs lived, because the breeder did not own them, but they were all Ch. dogs that were also health tested. She was breeding to better the breed and not over breeding. Carli has had two litters. She did try to get one more out of her, but it did not happen. Then Carli was sold as a pet to me. She has only done that one other time. She wanted to bring in another bloodline and for the sake of room let Carli go. I would use this breeder again .


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> That's interesting. Are you a USA or UK member?
> 
> I see home breeder and immediately think "backyard breeder" and shy away. At least with a kennel environment, it is very easy to pick out the good breeders from the bad ones.
> 
> Clearly I've been too close to people that think they are wonderful home breeders, but are backyard breeders who don't raise puppies well. And I had a great experience working at the kennel that loves on and spoils their dogs.


Whatever suits you!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> ...................................................
> 
> I think there may be a confusion over semantics here. Maybe what some of y'all are imagining, when u hear the work 'kennel', is what I would call a 'run', or runs. Concrete floors, 7 foot high chain link fencing, an indoor part that the dogs can access on colder days . . . and the like...
> 
> *I can't imagine puppies set out in a run, or even a kennel building that included runs. Puppies should be in the house.*


Exactly.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> That's exactly the problem. No poodle should ever be kept in a place where she is never socialized and never plays with toys and just lives to produce puppies. I got my first poodle from a breeder like that. My Sophie was a retiring momma dog and I got her when she was 6. I just hate to think of what the first 6 years of her life were like.


Amen.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Countryboy said:


> I think there may be a confusion over semantics here. Maybe what some of y'all are imagining, when u hear the work 'kennel', is what I would call a 'run', or runs. Concrete floors, 7 foot high chain link fencing, an indoor part that the dogs can access on colder days . . . and the like...
> 
> I can't imagine puppies set out in a run, or even a kennel building that included runs. Puppies should be in the house.


I was trying to find the right way of saying this without it taking a wrong turn - see I try! 

Many people with kennels are also boarding and having a specific training facility for working dogs which is perfectly fine.

A breeder that raises in the home should not be considered a BYB. Much the opposite.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Let me show you an example of what may look like a number of dogs

This is my breeder that I got Vegas from (Quintin x Kia)
Desert Reef Standard Poodles - Home

Although it looks like she has a number of dogs, I'd say at least a third of those dogs are already spayed/neutered (says on their desc, only 2 litters from the girls) and most of her dogs are with co-owners. Quintin, Grace, Ava, and Aspen actually live pretty close to me, and I've used Vegas to help families meet Desert Reef dogs. I don't think I've ever seen her have more than 3 dogs on site at once, everyone is tested, kept groomed, very well socialized, lots of pictures of dogs out and about (not just in home/kennels), and if in her care fed a healthy raw diet.

Her last few litters have been to AKC CHs with even a few of her own girls finished. A London litter is even expected in a few days from Grace. You want a good breeder? Look for someone like this.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> I think there may be a confusion over semantics here. Maybe what some of y'all are imagining, when u hear the work 'kennel', is what I would call a 'run', or runs. Concrete floors, 7 foot high chain link fencing, an indoor part that the dogs can access on colder days . . . and the like...
> 
> I can't imagine puppies set out in a run, or even a kennel building that included runs. Puppies should be in the house.


When I think of a kennel, I think of a facility with *some* kennel runs (to protect females in heat from accidental breeding). But I'm thinking of big outdoor fenced areas for each dog. Personal attention for each dog being in the kennel facility during meal prep and chores. Big whelping rooms designed specifically for that with video cameras so the kennel employees and kennel manager can watch. Ex-pens in the prep area so puppies are getting constant attention starting 4 weeks old. Each puppy gets training sessions starting at 4 weeks old. Puppies get socialized with everything from kiddie pools to trips to the grocery store. At 6 weeks old they go into the office area (6 employees) and each puppy is tethered to a desk for constant attention and to learn good manners. The dogs get long (miles) daily walks, get to play fetch in their yards, get training sessions, grooming.

I'd get paid $10/hour + to sit in a whelping room with a new mom to read a book and pet her.

Seriously, in a good kennel they are seriously spoiled and happy dogs!

Just saying that you can't say "kennel" and start hollering about animal abuse. Dogs in that kennel just might have a better life than your dog!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

tortoise said:


> At least with a kennel environment, it is very easy to pick out the good breeders from the bad ones.


I should expand on this. If a kennel is a row of 4x4 concrete cells, it is very obvious. But if the kennel has outdoors yards, whelping areas, attentive staff, puppy socialization - that will be obvious too.

With a home breeder you are trusting that they 1) know what they're doing and 2) are actually doing what they say they are. 

I am not a trusting person. I only trust what I observe - not what people say. I can observe the operation of a good kennel. It's hard to watch a single person or family without them changing their behavior. (Do you do extra cleaning before your mother-in-law comes to visit? Yup. People lie.)


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

tortoise said:


> That's interesting. Are you a USA or UK member?
> 
> I see home breeder and immediately think "backyard breeder" and shy away. At least with a kennel environment, it is very easy to pick out the good breeders from the bad ones.
> 
> Clearly I've been too close to people that think they are wonderful home breeders, but are backyard breeders who don't raise puppies well. And I had a great experience working at the kennel that loves on and spoils their dogs.


Home breeder (IMO) indicates not a commercial facility (kennel) and I would choose that over a commercial (kennel) breeder any day. Home breeders many times is also an owner/handler, too, and they compete in CKC, AKC, etc., too.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I find Tortoise’s perspective on this to be quite interesting. Her orientation is that of one who is interested in working dogs--dogs like police dogs or various kinds of assistance dogs. I find some of the things that she has said about the early training that goes on to be very interesting. It sounds as if a tremendous amount of human effort and expense goes into properly rearing and training a working dog. I do not doubt that the pros that are breeding and training these dogs know what they are doing and do it well.

I do not think that this is the same in a kennel that is raising dogs to be pets. Unfortunately, there are lots of breeders who are trying to make a profit by keeping too many dogs. Most breeders that have so many dogs that they are being kept in kennels are trying to keep a steady stream of litters coming. To do this, they breed their bitches too early and too often and may cut corners on health testing and on the quality of the dogs being bred. 

While it may well be different for working dogs, I think that pet buyers should view a kennel situation as a huge red flag. A puppy raised in the home of a small-scale breeder is best IMO.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

peppersb said:


> While it may well be different for working dogs, I think that pet buyers should view a kennel situation as a huge red flag. A puppy raised in the home of a small-scale breeder is best IMO.


EXACTLY, small scale companion/show breeders have absolutely NO defensible excuse IMO to raise their animals _anywhere other_ than in the home.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

With the exception of one rescue, all my dogs before Cali have been "kennel" dogs so I have a bit of personal experience with dogs raised in this environment. They were all whelped and spent their first few months in puppy pens in the house but then lived out in a kennel. 

My first dog, a Papillon, was 9 months old when I got him. He was a wonderful little guy. Since he was my first dog, I didn't do much with him other than basic obedience but he had a sweet temperament and was a great companion.

My next two dogs, Rottweilers, were both kennel dogs (from two different breeders). These dogs were bred to be show/companion dogs, not working dogs.

My first was 2 years when I got her. She was probably the most wonderful dog I've ever owned. Even though she'd never been off the kennel property, she'd been very well taken care of, was socialized with lots of dogs and people, had basic obedience training and the most wonderful, loving, stable temperament. It took a bit of time and effort on my part to get her used to things she'd never seen before (cars, trucks, skateboards, bicycles, etc) but I expected that. She went on to get her Canine Good Citizen and to become a St. John Ambulance Therapy Dog certified to visit both with adults and children. I had her at a time when Rottweilers were being demonized by the press so it was a challenge to get some facilities to accept her as a Therapy Dog. Once she started visiting though she changed the minds of many, many people in a very positive way. 

My second Rottie I got at the age of 10 months. I flew her up here to Ontario, sight unseen, from Texas. I didn't know what to expect when she arrived and was prepared for a scared, maybe snappy, dog from the stress of being in a crate and on a plane for hours. She came romping out of her crate, licked my hand and was ready to go. She also became a Therapy Dog, got her Canine Good Neighbour, passed the ATTS and had lots of fun in agillty, obedience and tracking.

Cali, my mpoo, was raised in the breeder's house. She was 4 1/2 months old when I got her. I don't find her any better or any worse than any of my kennel-raised dogs. 

I really just wanted to put out there that you cannot pass judgement on a breeder merely because the dogs are kept in a kennel and not in a house. I think the most important thing when buying a dog is to research the breeder extensively. The breeders of my 3 "kennel dogs" were committed to breeding healthy dogs with sound temperaments. Their dogs were proven in the conformation ring and in the obedience ring. If I'd discounted the above dogs because they were raised in a kennel, then I'd have missed out on some of the best companions you could ever ask for.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> If I was looking for another dog, I would go back to the 'kennel' where Tonka was born before I looked anywhere else.
> 
> The puppies are whelped in the bedroom/office where there's an adult awake with them 24/7. Removed from the whelping pens at four weeks and moved to the living room . . . surrounded by people, toys, ringing telephones, vacumn cleaners and all other distractions of home life.
> 
> ...


Do you work for your breeder? 
Are telling this story based on what you have actually seen with your own eyes? 

I agree all puppies should be raised in homes but your breeder is more like a factory than a home!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Do you work for your breeder?
> Are telling this story based on what you have actually seen with your own eyes?
> 
> I agree all puppies should be raised in homes but your breeder is more like a factory than a home!


Did you quote the right post? I'm confused - it sounds like this "kennel" breeder is giving the puppies every benefit of being raised in a house. How is that factory-like?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I don't work for my breeder . . . but I will recommend them. And yes, I have seen these things take place . . . with my own eyes.

But it sounds like your mind is already made up...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

It's my preference _not_ to purchase my pet poodles from a kennel, in particular one that has multiple breeds, such as the one tortoise patronized, Red Star Kennel, "the proud breeder of Presa Canario/Dogo Canario, Belgian Malinois and Miniature Poodle." I choose to deal with someone who _specializes_ in and breeds _only _poodles; again, that's _my _way to roll. 

I am considerably more comfortable dealing with an experienced poodle breeder who _personally_ provides the hands-on care and socialization to the pups, as opposed to a minimum-wage paid kennel worker whose qualifications and reputation are unknown to me. Just as it's my preference _not _to use the dog training services of our local pizza boy, a young self-proclaimed and self-taught "dog trainer" who mentions his training services with each pizza delivery.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

When I saw the odd mix of dogs I checked out the website of Red Star because I was intrigued by a kennel that would choose those 3 breeds. When I see mention of the Presa Canario breed what comes to my mind is that poor girl in San Franscisco that was eaten by one. Evidently this breed and Belgian Malinois are the preferred breed of drug dealers as they are very aggressive. It just boggles my mind that they also breed Miniature Poodles. I am put off by the fact that they use shock collars in training. Their poodles are champions and look lovely but I prefer a specialized breeder and the fact that they breed 3 kinds of dogs (especially the breeds they chose) and the training methods used and that they are a kennel would make it a non-starter for me.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Presa Canario's and Belgian Malinois are not inherently "aggressive". Belgian Malinois are actually coming to be the preferred dogs of a lot of police departments because of their smarts and their work ethic.

Any dog can be aggressive given bad breeding and/or the wrong type of owner. I've seen a whole bunch of snappy, snarly mpoos yet I still chose to own a poodle because I would never generalize about a breed of dog anymore than I would a race of people. 

The absolute most important thing to look at when buying a dog is the experience and ethics of the breeder, not whether the dogs live in a house or a kennel.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i used to be a professional pet sitter and i got attacked by a chihuahua. i'm still scared of them. seriously. 

horrible little beast. :ahhhhh:


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

my ex sister in law was a breeder of yorkshire terriers. she had a toy poodle and a maltese for pets. 

she had a lot of them in the home (at one time nearly 20) and that was because she became so picky about who to sell to that she kept them. she also had some that were really small and didn't want to place them and was keeping some for other breeders for grooming/whelping and also as part of rescue.

she lived and breathed for the dogs because she had such a rotten life. They were her babies and they brought her love. 

yes, you can say that there were a lot of dogs in the home, but being that they were all 4-6 pounders ... they weighed less than my 2 standards and my lab. heh 

oh and none were kenneled. and i had to remove my shoes and wash my hands with sanitizer before i could enter the rooms she had for her dogs (complete with their own kitchen). 

that was a lovely set up compared to a kennel set up like you see w/ amish puppy millers who treat their dogs as livestock.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

caroline429 said:


> Presa Canario's and Belgian Malinois are not inherently "aggressive". Belgian Malinois are actually coming to be the preferred dogs of a lot of police departments because of their smarts and their work ethic.
> 
> Any dog can be aggressive given bad breeding and/or the wrong type of owner. I've seen a whole bunch of snappy, snarly mpoos yet I still chose to own a poodle because I would never generalize about a breed of dog anymore than I would a race of people.


*I tend to agree with this. I hate labels where they do not fit.* 

Marks (Red Star) a member here maybe if people have questions PM him - this usually prompts an email, I am sure he would respond. This is an example of what *appears* to be a decent run kennel. Their purpose is training and boarding. I believe they train working, professional/career and pet dogs from all over the world. 

From *my understanding *their dogs are also health tested and they do not breed often at all. Which is more than we can say about our one dog only breeders sometimes.... I do believe it is frowned upon breeders having multiple breeds but this kennel has a purpose and does not appear to be a factory like whats being referred to in this thread...


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> When I saw the odd mix of dogs I checked out the website of Red Star because I was intrigued by a kennel that would choose those 3 breeds. When I see mention of the Presa Canario breed what comes to my mind is that poor girl in San Franscisco that was eaten by one. Evidently this breed and _*Belgian Malinois are the preferred breed of drug dealers as they are very aggressive*_. It just boggles my mind that they also breed Miniature Poodles. I am put off by the fact that they use shock collars in training. Their poodles are champions and look lovely but I prefer a specialized breeder and the fact that they breed 3 kinds of dogs (especially the breeds they chose) and the training methods used and that they are a kennel would make it a non-starter for me.


Really? _Really?_ You're comparing a reputable breeder to drug dealers?


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Toronto_Toyseeker said:


> I recently came across Classy Companion Poodles - Home which seems to have a number of pups available.
> 
> My concern is that there are 23 girls and 6 studs.
> 
> Should I be concerned?


I'm not a breeder, but I sure think having 23 females seems to be an excess.

I know if you are breeding dogs you want to make a profit but at what expense to the dogs. 

My GiGi was a breeder surrender at 7 years old and I don't believe she was socialized very well. She is really frightenend around people and new surroundings. She was not familiar with grass and was use to going potty on the concrete or a piddle pad. She thought a rock or a piece of paper was a toy, it was really quite sad. She really loves being outside now and having her own toys.

I could be wrong but I sure would check them out.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

peppersb said:


> That's exactly the problem. No poodle should ever be kept in a place where she is never socialized and never plays with toys and just lives to produce puppies. I got my first poodle from a breeder like that. My Sophie was a retiring momma dog and I got her when she was 6. I just hate to think of what the first 6 years of her life were like.


Amen! You are singing to the choir here. I got GiGi when she was 7, but she is comming along fine.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think most people would agree that some dogs are more aggresive than others. When the horrible incident in San Franciso happened there were many reports of Presa Canario's. A leader of a drug task force said that was the dog of choice and I saw numerous similiar reports. This dog is also commonly listed on the top 5 list of dangerous dogs whose attacks result in serious injury or death. 
Presa Canario Fatal Attack Statistics - Presa Canario Mauling, Bite Rates | Dog Bite Lawyer
Note to the American Public: Belgian Malinois, Look Don’t Touch Bay Area Dog Trainer

My experience with Belgian Malinois, admitted only a couple of dogs, is that they seem to be very smart but dog aggressive. The owner/trainer is know very skilled and has many agility championships but this is a demanding dog. 

I am not trying to imply that only drug dealers would have these dogs but that they are not your average pet dog. I would consider them more guard dogs or police dogs. Any dog can be aggresive or attack. When I was 6 I was bitten by a minipoodle and he drew blood. I was just walking on the sidewalk. 

I am not comparing anyone to a drug dealer and certainly not Red Star. I am also not making any comments on the quality of their kennel I just prefer my dogs to be bred in a home environment. Any generalization about all kennels being bad or all homes being good is false. The same goes true of any generalization about a breed of dog. I am sure there are sweet Presa Canarios. Why do when I do a search on these dogs I see people suited up and dogs being trained to attack and I don't see this with poodles. They are better suited for this type of work - it is suited to their temperment. I just found the juxtaposition of the 3 breeds odd. Please note I did say their puppies look lovely - no bashing intended.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CT Girl said:


> When I saw the odd mix of dogs I checked out the website of Red Star because I was intrigued by a kennel that would choose those 3 breeds. When I see mention of the Presa Canario breed what comes to my mind is that poor girl in San Franscisco that was eaten by one. Evidently this breed and Belgian Malinois are the preferred breed of drug dealers as they are very aggressive. It just boggles my mind that they also breed Miniature Poodles. I am put off by the fact that they use shock collars in training. Their poodles are champions and look lovely but I prefer a specialized breeder and the fact that they breed 3 kinds of dogs (especially the breeds they chose) and the training methods used and that they are a kennel would make it a non-starter for me.


Ummm... Malinois are a "preferred breed" for military, police, search and rescue, and other training venues. They are intense and can be trained to bite, but they're not inherently aggressive.

Irina has the Presa Canarios. She brought them with her from Europe almost 30 years ago. She has arguably the best line in the USA.

Mark has the Malinois. He's a French Ring decoy and expert in the breed and the sports he selects them for.

Mark grew up with Miniature Poodles. They are working on developing a breeding program that can take them into retirement (when they will be physically unable to care for the larger, more intense breeds). They are working with 2 - 3 very experienced AKC conformation mpoo breeders until they get their breeding program set. They do one litter per year now... with 2 females... that's 1 litter every other year. Hardly a dog factory.

I love that he has found mpoo lines with great temperaments. Like a malinois in a small fluffy body. Not as intense, but all the drive to play, tug, chase, fetch, etc. Highly trainable!

So that's the story of the 3 odd breeds.

Don't judge people unless you are willing to go meet them, see the facilities, and go through a year of training with them. 

I am respectful enough to say "I don't have enough information to form an opinion." I wish others had the same courtesy.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Can we just not get into breed generalizations?

In ATTS temperament testing, pit bulls scored better than 121 breeds - including poodles. Point made?

Every temperament of dog is found in every breed. Breed generalization is a waste of energy, IMO. Since dogs are no longer bred for a purpose, the temperament traits that helped define breeds are becoming diluted. In fact, conformation breeders choose dogs without the defining temperament because it's easy to handle higher number of dogs that way.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I am too old to spend a year to make an opinion. LOL

But, I can certainly agree with this statement, no matter what points are made:



> I am respectful enough to say "I don't have enough information to form an opinion." I wish others had the same courtesy.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

CT Girl said:


> I am sure there are sweet Presa Canarios. Why do when I do a search on these dogs I see people suited up and dogs being trained to attack and I don't see this with poodles. They are better suited for this type of work - it is suited to their temperment.


I think what you are seeing are Preso Canarios at Schutzhund trials. Schutzhund is a dog sport open to any breed. The sport has 3 phases: obedience, tracking and protection work. A lot of people find the protection phase to be the most exciting to watch so that's probably why there are so many pictures and videos of this phase. 

What looks like a vicious attack dog to you is actually a dog that has been trained to go for the sleeve on the decoy's arm. It really doesn't have anything to do with aggression. Here's a video of a young Standard Poodle starting training in the protection phase. 



 As you can see, the dog isn't vicious but focused on getting the sleeve which isn't actually on the person's arm yet. Eventually this Poodle will be doing the same thing as the Preso Canarios. Schutzhund tests a dog's temperament, his courage, his versatility and, above all, his obedience in all phases. 

While Poodles aren't as commonly seen in Schutzhund as the large working breeds, they do compete successsfully. Back in the 80's, a very well-known Schutzhund trainer titled a Standard Poodle in Sch 3, the top level of the sport.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

tortoise said:


> ....I am respectful enough to say "I don't have enough information to form an opinion." I wish others had the same courtesy.



Actions speak louder than words. A willingness to show respect for the opinions of others, particularly those which may differ from your own, is a true civil courtesy. Overly defensive and aggressive postures are as undesirable in people as they are in dogs. As you've told us in the past, "Having an opinion on a topic you are passionate about is good. But overconfidence and railroading others is not. We all grow and learn as pet owners, trainers, and groomers by reading different points of view." I agree with your opinion on that.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> Overly defensive and aggressive postures are as undesirable in people as they are in dogs.


IMO we've seen this overly defensive and aggressive behaviour twice recently . . . from brand new members. Newbies who asked for advice, and then turned on the people giving them advice. And I don't know why.

What's going on here, eh? :confused2:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Um, I am going to take this back to the basics --- when looking for a poodle breeder, I guess I would be comfortable with a breeder that did not also breed for "protection" etc., although a poodle could definitely be protective. Sort of like shopping for a pair of well-made strappy sandals at the Army Navy Surplus --- guess you could find a pair there perhaps, but I'd prefer to go to a store that specialized in women's dress shoes alone. Make sense? (Probably a lame comparison but all the same, IMHO)!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

tortoise said:


> Can we just not get into breed generalizations?
> 
> In ATTS temperament testing, pit bulls scored better than 121 breeds - including poodles. Point made?
> 
> Every temperament of dog is found in every breed. Breed generalization is a waste of energy, IMO. Since dogs are no longer bred for a purpose, the temperament traits that helped define breeds are becoming diluted. In fact, conformation breeders choose dogs without the defining temperament because it's easy to handle higher number of dogs that way.


So, then why don't we all run out and buy a pitbull ----- what are we doing with poodles?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

liljaker said:


> Um, I am going to take this back to the basics --- when looking for a poodle breeder, I guess I would be comfortable with a breeder that did not also breed for "protection" etc., although a poodle could definitely be protective. Sort of like shopping for a pair of well-made strappy sandals at the Army Navy Surplus --- guess you could find a pair there perhaps, but I'd prefer to go to a store that specialized in women's dress shoes alone. Make sense? (Probably a lame comparison but all the same, IMHO)!


It takes a certain type of temperament to make a Schutzund dog. Though it also takes a stable temperament. Not soft or unwilling to do the bitework. But not aggressive because then the bite won't be controlled.

A doberman breeder I know breeds with true protective instincts, not just dobermans that "look like dobermans". She is extremely careful about what families get what dobermans, based on extensive temperament testing. An eyebrow gets raised at anyone who says they want a Schutzund dog particularly if they are accustomed to a breed like poodles.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I hope from my posts it is clear that I am not talking about personal experience but what I have heard in the media. In the case of the Preso Canarios there was a lot of media about the San Francisco incident and the woman in Florida who was killed by her own Preso Canario. This, like it or not, is the perception that many people have of the breed. As to the Malinois, I am familiar with two dogs, hardly a comprehensive sample. I am slightly familiar with Schutzhund training and I realize this is a training exercise not a vicious attack. I do think some generalizations of dogs are valid. Lets face it we expect terriors to be a little fiesty, border collies to have intense drive and focus ect. I expect dogs that are successful in Schutzhund training to have a strong protective instinct. Tortoise, thank you for explaining the choice of the 3 breeds I honestly did find it perplexing but what you said makes perfect sense and actually reinforces my belief that the Presio and the Malinois are not your ordinary family dog as the breeder thinks they may be too demanding as the breeder ages and most of the breeder sites believe that they are best handled by experienced dog owners who are willing to put in the training time this type of breed requires. I will judge people without training for a year with them - sorry that is just unrealistic. I am not judging Red Star as I don't have enough information about them other than their poodles look nice and I don't like the use of a training collar. That is my personal opinion and not something that I expect others to share. My preference that a puppy I would get would be home raised is also my personal preference and I have not said disparaging things about others who make a different choice. Tortoise, you seem to imply that I have been disrespectful when actually I was puzzled and asking for information. Your response "I love that he has found mpoo lines with great temperaments. Like a malinois in a small fluffy body. Not as intense, but all the drive to play, tug, chase, fetch, etc. Highly trainable!" really answered my question. I do hope the forum is open enough to accept different opinions including uninformed opinions. Isn't that how we all learn?


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

liljaker said:


> So, then why don't we all run out and buy a pitbull ----- what are we doing with poodles?


 my son has a pittbull who is the sweetest dog on the planet. she and seelie are bffs.

i can't wait til there is another bad breed to focus on. used to be dobermans, then german shepherds, then rottweilers, now pitties ... how about chihuahuas. they are mean little bastards.

btw, i'm just being annoying and silly kinda sorta ...liljaker. but i'm serious about chihuahuas. they skeer me.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

liljaker said:


> So, then why don't we all run out and buy a pitbull ----- what are we doing with poodles?


:clap2: Because we like to play with the hair?! lol! You're a total riot! :laugh: Love how you think!!:highfive2:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> :clap2: Because we like to play with the hair?! lol! You're a total riot! :laugh: Love how you think!!:highfive2:


Well, I have actually had a pitbull.......when I resided in California. Barry Gordy (yes the Motown one) gave Gilligan to me because Gilligan was picking on his poodles and he really hurt one of them. Guess Barry had several small poodles. Gill was fine with me, but very very protective and I would not have trusted him as far as I could throw him. He ended up with a doctor and his family with lots of land. Naw, think I will stick with poodles! My Sunny is just perfect!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

faerie said:


> my son has a pittbull who is the sweetest dog on the planet. she and seelie are bffs.
> 
> i can't wait til there is another bad breed to focus on. used to be dobermans, then german shepherds, then rottweilers, now pitties ... how about chihuahuas. they are mean little bastards.
> 
> btw, i'm just being annoying and silly kinda sorta ...liljaker. but i'm serious about chihuahuas. they skeer me.


I hear you, *faerie*! Chagall's best friend is an 8 year old Pit/Chow mix named Rico. He's the most well-balanced and well-behaved dog you can imagine. One look at him and some people cross the street! The most aggressive dog I've ever known was a little Dashshund, aptly named "Dennis the Menace," who viewed people, and other dogs, as sushi, simply too irresistible not to take a bite. At one time or another, he treed half the neigbhorhood!

Like *liljaker*, I remain most comfortable with buying my poodle from an experienced, reputable poodle breeder who breeds poodles exclusively. I have no say or interest in what choices others make for themselves. Just glad there are wonderful breeders out there to deal with. I so appreciate their dedication to the breed, and the benefits we are fortunate to enjoy from their labor of love.:dog:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

liljaker said:


> Um, I am going to take this back to the basics --- when looking for a poodle breeder, I guess I would be comfortable with a breeder that did not also breed for "protection" etc., although a poodle could definitely be protective. Sort of like shopping for a pair of well-made strappy sandals at the Army Navy Surplus --- guess you could find a pair there perhaps, but I'd prefer to go to a store that specialized in women's dress shoes alone. Make sense? (Probably a lame comparison but all the same, IMHO)!


OMG, *liljaker*, you and Sunny_ must_ come visit and we'll go into Manhattan shoe shopping for days and day on end! We'll stay at the Pierre Hotel, because it is just so very right for our lovely mpoos. How crazy good that would be, huh? Please start saving your vacation time for that visit!!:smile:


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

*Crowded space*

On a slight divergence. I visited a reputable breeder who by some accounts has provided wonderful pets for people,however this breeder had 23 poodles in an approximately 20 X 20 room, some caged, most not. A couple of spoos but mostly mpoos and some toys. Some less then 6 weeks old. No windows, newspaper on the floor. Only one adult I saw, maybe at times there is another. 
I wonder, how healthy is that situation? No easy access to the outside. What do you think of this situation?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

A well-respected breeder/trainer should not be over-looked by any prospective poodle puppy buyers, especially if they are in the immediate area. I would prefer frequent visits to my breeder for on-going advice and training, rather than long-distance phone calls, and I would welcome such a kennel to my area.


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

faerie said:


> my son has a pittbull who is the sweetest dog on the planet. she and seelie are bffs.
> 
> i can't wait til there is another bad breed to focus on. used to be dobermans, then german shepherds, then rottweilers, now pitties ... how about chihuahuas. they are mean little bastards.
> 
> btw, i'm just being annoying and silly kinda sorta ...liljaker. but i'm serious about chihuahuas. they skeer me.


I laughed out loud when you said Chihuahuas are "mean little bastards". My ribs still hurt, but I can't help but agree. We have one that lives next door and all it does is bark and show its teeth. They also have a little toy poodle that is as sweet as she can be.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

liljaker said:


> Well, I have actually had a pitbull.......when I resided in California. Barry Gordy (yes the Motown one) gave Gilligan to me because Gilligan was picking on his poodles and he really hurt one of them. Guess Barry had several small poodles. Gill was fine with me, but very very protective and I would not have trusted him as far as I could throw him. He ended up with a doctor and his family with lots of land. Naw, think I will stick with poodles! My Sunny is just perfect!


Wow, that is pretty cool that you know Barry Gordy and that he is a poodle guy. He would be an interesting guy to meet. I bet he has stories to tell.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Schutzund is NOT aggression, it's work and play.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

liljaker said:


> So, then why don't we all run out and buy a pitbull ----- what are we doing with poodles?


I have always been a pit bull person.  But my fiance has a dog and I don't have energy to deal with dog-versus-dog aggression that is (still!) an unfortunate hallmark of the breed.

My poodle is temperament-wise the most similar to a pit bull of most the dogs I see. Minus the dog-versus-dog aggression.

If breeders would breed dog-versus-dog agression out of pit bulls, they would be awesome-r and even more popular than they already are.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Schutzund is NOT aggression, it's work and play.


SchH is all about control. Control in tracking, even though it is not practical. Control in bitework, at the expense of personal protection. And control in obedience. Consequently it's also quite boring. 

It is unlikely for a dog that is "locked in prey" to score high points or make it to SchH3. A dog that is locked in prey is a dog working in prey/play drive, with no defense drive. A good comparison is a child learning karate. He will spar with his teachers and might be good at it - this is working in prey. But if he gets jumped in an alley and uses the same skills to defend himself - that is working in defense. In SchH, the decoy give little opposition to the dog. The dog is conditioned to accept whip and stick "hits", and must tolerate 3 stick hits on... the courage test, I believe. There is constroversy in SchH circles because (particularly overseas) weak dogs are "given" SchH titles with easy decoy work. 

But as far as protection sports go, SchH is calm and controlled. If you want to see aggression in bitework or to truly test a dog, look to French Ring and Mondio Ring. In these sports, the decoy is opposed to the dog - looking for any weakness or opportunity to make the dog fail. In these sports, attitude and intensity win extra points at the expense of control.

To clarify, by "at the expense of control" I am talking about fine details of a dog's gait in heeling for example. I am not talking about a dangerous/unpredictable/aggressive dog.

All protection sports require temperament testing before dogs can participate in bitework exercises.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

all that jazz said:


> On a slight divergence. I visited a reputable breeder who by some accounts has provided wonderful pets for people,however this breeder had 23 poodles in an approximately 20 X 20 room, some caged, most not. A couple of spoos but mostly mpoos and some toys. Some less then 6 weeks old. No windows, newspaper on the floor. Only one adult I saw, maybe at times there is another.
> I wonder, how healthy is that situation? No easy access to the outside. What do you think of this situation?


That's why I don't like situations that I can't see. I know there are awesome home breeders out there. But I've seen enough of letting puppies raise themselves "in their own bedroom", and not get let outside daily - much less get training or socializing.

What do I think? Do you really want to buy a dog that is pre-trained to poop on the floor?!


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## rebel66 (Mar 6, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> IMO we've seen this overly defensive and aggressive behaviour twice recently . . . from brand new members. Newbies who asked for advice, and then turned on the people giving them advice. And I don't know why.
> 
> What's going on here, eh? :confused2:



I'm no newbie when it comes to dogs or this forum, (you can read and never post) and if you look back at the question I asked on the thread that someone reported me for, :Cry:, no one ever answered my question. 

I posted the link to the pics of the pups, realizing that it would probably hard to tell much about the pups because they were very young, but still hoping someone with a better eye for poodles than I, would look, and my question was " just wondered if anyone knew the breeder or has run into a similar situation." 

No one answered the questions asked, just gave me a lot of opinions that I neither asked for, nor wanted. So if someone could please point me to this "advice" that was given to me regarding the questions I asked, feel free to show me. 

:angel2:

Chris


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

^u mad bro?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

tortoise said:


> That's why I don't like situations that I can't see. I know there are awesome home breeders out there. But I've seen enough of letting puppies raise themselves "in their own bedroom", and not get let outside daily - much less get training or socializing.
> 
> What do I think? Do you really want to buy a dog that is pre-trained to poop on the floor?!


Something I want to add to the first part of this, I hate seeing pictures of moms with young puppies on the floor in the family room, that has to be stressful for her to have all her puppies in the open as apposed to her 'den' that her whelping box would be, or with pictures of the puppies on the persons BED.


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