# Jumping and biting on walks



## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Hello all!

I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.

This is my first dog ever... has anyone ever experienced this? Will it go away with age? Is there some training method I can use with him to get him to stop? In general, he has no chill when he sees other dogs or something exciting. I'm so jealous of other people with 10 month old dogs who can just calmly pass by a bike or a child without going crazy.

Any advice appreciated - we're at our wits end with him!

EDIT: should have mentioned here are things we have tried -- we took him to two obedience courses where he was hyped up and couldn't focus the whole time bc other dogs were there. We did one on one with a trainer who gave mental stimulation exercises (some of which, like dog parkour actual set him off sometimes). We also took him to puppy preschool where they tried to work at desensitizing him to other dogs (they said he's exceptionally difficult compared to other dogs), but he now goes to regular dog daycare once a week and is kept in a separate room and walked separately bc he has no chill. And I'm now trying the pigs fly training method because he's not very motivated by treats or toys.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think, as this is your first dog and the habit has grown over several months, the best thing to do would be to find a good trainer to work with. I am not sure what the qualifications to look for would be in Sweden, but I would avoid anyone who uses force or punishment. Even just one or two sessions with a really good trainer, who can observe both you and the dog, can be enough to set you on the right path - a training class might also help enormously.

As a very basic approach in the meantime you need to avoid letting him practice the behaviour - that will just reinforce the habit. Search here or online for LAT (Look at That) training, and for relaxation protocols. Consider having him carry a toy on walks, or carry a tug toy with you and redirect his frustrated energy to that. Find some friendly dogs and people to work with whom he can greet, so that he learns how to meet and greet politely and not get so worked up about it. 

I am sure others will have more specific ideas for you, but do look into getting some professional help locally.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Everything fjm said  

I had an issue with this with Annie at 6-7 ish months. Ow those teeth hurt! For us, it was while playing soccer ball, and I had to institute a ton of sit and stay work to keep her from jumping and nipping. Age helps but you also don't want him rehearsing it and learning it's appropriate. 

In addition to what fjm said, I have been finding Sophia Yins "asking with sitting" stuff really helpful with Annie and reacting to things, even her archnemesis, squirrels.

From here : 









Another 'look at me with distractions&quot...


A few days ago, I stumbled on this old post from the late Dr. Sophia Yin. Love her stuff, but the website can be hard to navigate. https://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/dog-training-classes-can-and-should-be-more-than-sit-stay-stand/ Anyway- the game is teaching the dog to repeatedly, without a...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

fjm said:


> I think, as this is your first dog and the habit has grown over several months, the best thing to do would be to find a good trainer to work with. I am not sure what the qualifications to look for would be in Sweden, but I would avoid anyone who uses force or punishment. Even just one or two sessions with a really good trainer, who can observe both you and the dog, can be enough to set you on the right path - a training class might also help enormously.
> 
> As a very basic approach in the meantime you need to avoid letting him practice the behaviour - that will just reinforce the habit. Search here or online for LAT (Look at That) training, and for relaxation protocols. Consider having him carry a toy on walks, or carry a tug toy with you and redirect his frustrated energy to that. Find some friendly dogs and people to work with whom he can greet, so that he learns how to meet and greet politely and not get so worked up about it.
> 
> I am sure others will have more specific ideas for you, but do look into getting some professional help locally.


Thanks so much for your reply. We've actually seen two different dog trainers who weren't much help unfortunately. The first one told us that he would "be a good dog when he's 2 years old" and that it's typical for poodles to have lots of energy as puppies. Basically she said we needed to wait it out and there wasn't anything we can do. 

The second trainer took us through some stimulation exercises which we do - things like dog parkour. Though the dog parkour tends to excite him so much sometimes it triggers jumping/biting episodes. She also told us to just completely avoid other dogs and children and things that over-excite him. So, if I see a dog in the distance I take him across the road. If I break into anything faster than a slow walk, though, he gets excited and starts jumping. 

It seems to be a symptom of over-excitement which means that when he's hyped up like that he won't really listen to any commands. Otherwise, he's pretty reliable at basic commands. We were taking a toy with us for a while on walks, though he would rather chomp into our arms it seems most of the time. 

Basically - it's about controlling his frustrated or excited bursts of energy. Some day I would love to be able to run with him but right now any fast movement just sets him off.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Everything fjm said
> 
> I had an issue with this with Annie at 6-7 ish months. Ow those teeth hurt! For us, it was while playing soccer ball, and I had to institute a ton of sit and stay work to keep her from jumping and nipping. Age helps but you also don't want him rehearsing it and learning it's appropriate.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your reply - good to know that it's not unique to him! My issue is, when he's calm in the house, he listens and behaves so well. He reliably sits to ask for everything - I trained that one early. However, he won't look at me, sit, listen, do anything when he's hyped up. I've just been trying to avoid things that over-excite him when we're outside, but that's A LOT of things.

I'm really wracking my brain how to try to teach him that it's not appropriate behavior! Sometimes I can get him to sit and take a treat but then he's back to jumping and biting. I can't get him to just stay sitting unless I'm feeding him a constant stream of treats. He's also not super motivated by food so he gets bored of treats pretty quickly. I try to stand still and not engage as much as possible, sit down with him, just hold him. But as soon as I stand up again he's back to jumping and biting. I've had to just hold his head really tight so he can't move, which I would imagine he doesn't like -- but it doesn't seem to change the behavior at all.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree with fjm. Frustrated energy is a great way to describe it. There may also be a bit of fear or anxiety contributing to the issue. I wish I had known about the Dr Yin videos when I got Pogo and Snarky.

My boy Pogo would have meltdowns when he saw another dog or when a delivery van passed us. He was worse in winter, as the cold air would leave him feeling energetic. The reactivity got worse, not better, with age. The reactivity also got worse when my husband walked him, as my husband has a lot of anxious mannerisms. My husband would tighten the leash, step off the path, or do something else to signal nervousness. These actions would tell Pogo that something was wrong, and he would get excited. I was able to somewhat manage the reactivity by letting Pogo bring a toy along on our walks. He couldn't chew, and the barking was muffled, when he had a toy in his mouth. Pogo also had a strong work ethic, so he found it comforting to have a task. Carrying his toy was a suitable task for him.

What didn't work was to ask him for a sit or to try to distract him with a treat after he had already started his meltdown.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I agree with fjm. Frustrated energy is a great way to describe it. There may also be a bit of fear or anxiety contributing to the issue. I wish I had known about the Dr Yin videos when I got Pogo and Snarky.
> 
> My boy Pogo would have meltdowns when he saw another dog or when a delivery van passed us. He was worse in winter, as the cold air would leave him feeling energetic. The reactivity got worse, not better, with age. The reactivity also got worse when my husband walked him, as my husband has a lot of anxious mannerisms. My husband would tighten the leash, step off the path, or do something else to signal nervousness. These actions would tell Pogo that something was wrong, and he would get excited. I was able to somewhat manage the reactivity by letting Pogo bring a toy along on our walks. He couldn't chew, and the barking was muffled, when he had a toy in his mouth. Pogo also had a strong work ethic, so he found it comforting to have a task. Carrying his toy was a suitable task for him.
> 
> What didn't work was to ask him for a sit or to try to distract him with a treat after he had already started his meltdown.


Interesting! I can see if I can get Mephi to carry a toy with him. Sometimes he will bring a toy or a bone outside but then just drop it a million times along the way so I have to keep picking it up 😒haha


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Faust said:


> Interesting! I can see if I can get Mephi to carry a toy with him. Sometimes he will bring a toy or a bone outside but then just drop it a million times along the way so I have to keep picking it up 😒haha





cowpony said:


> I agree with fjm. Frustrated energy is a great way to describe it. There may also be a bit of fear or anxiety contributing to the issue. I wish I had known about the Dr Yin videos when I got Pogo and Snarky.
> 
> My boy Pogo would have meltdowns when he saw another dog or when a delivery van passed us. He was worse in winter, as the cold air would leave him feeling energetic. The reactivity got worse, not better, with age. The reactivity also got worse when my husband walked him, as my husband has a lot of anxious mannerisms. My husband would tighten the leash, step off the path, or do something else to signal nervousness. These actions would tell Pogo that something was wrong, and he would get excited. I was able to somewhat manage the reactivity by letting Pogo bring a toy along on our walks. He couldn't chew, and the barking was muffled, when he had a toy in his mouth. Pogo also had a strong work ethic, so he found it comforting to have a task. Carrying his toy was a suitable task for him.
> 
> What didn't work was to ask him for a sit or to try to distract him with a treat after he had already started his meltdown.


oh I just realized I have Sophia Lin's puppy training book. I definitely had mixed success... but I'll look at her videos too


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I feel for you. I have the exact same problem with Beckie. Except... she’s only 8 pounds, which makes it easier but still an embarrassment. Like your dog, she screams and barks in a high pitch like she is being butchered and will jump in the air and do 360’s while doing it.

She is three and has been doing it for at least 2 years. I’ve been working on it on my own all summer but nothing seems to work. So I’ve started just picking her up as soon as she does it, and letting her back down to walk when she calms down. So far it’s my best option, it fixes 98% of the non-sense. I think she is doing it because she is scared and trying to protect me. I have generalized anxiety disorder, and I believe she is sensing it and reacting to my own fears (even though I can’t feel it myself). She will also attack other dogs that come near me, which reinforces my belief. She’s also not the first dog to be protective of me against other dogs, so there is a pattern.

I’m sorry this is not a solution for you, as your dog is much too big, but I wanted to share my story, in case there are similarities with yours that maybe can guide you.

I wish you the best.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Dechi said:


> I feel for you. I have the exact same problem with Beckie. Except... she’s only 8 pounds, which makes it easier but still an embarrassment. Like your dog, she screams and barks in a high pitch like she is being butchered and will jump in the air and do 360’s while doing it.
> 
> She is three and has been doing it for at least 2 years. I’ve been working on it on my own all summer but nothing seems to work. So I’ve started just picking her up as soon as she does it, and letting her back down to walk when she calms down. So far it’s my best option, it fixes 98% of the non-sense. I think she is doing it because she is scared and trying to protect me. I have generalized anxiety disorder, and I believe she is sensing it and reacting to my own fears (even though I can’t feel it myself). She will also attack other dogs that come near me, which reinforces my belief. She’s also not the first dog to be protective of me against other dogs, so there is a pattern.
> 
> ...


Thanks!  That sounds really hard! Good thing you can pick her up at least though!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

One thing I had to learn with Annie was to watch for signs she was getting over excited, BEFORE she got to the try and bite stage. 

So I would ask for a sit and focus, a down, a stand, a stay, and then as she calmed down, we could continue. If it got too bad, we went inside again. We still do a lot of pausing during Play on/off stuff. So we play play play - I ask for a sit, when she is calm we return to play play play. Slowly working on self control when overexcited. At the start, it might be a 1s sit. Now? Might be a 30 s or one min sit. Her reward is returning to play, not a treat.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Faust said:


> I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.


If the kinder, gentler suggestions given to you so far don't work, an e-collar could be the solution.


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## Liz A (Nov 2, 2020)

Long-time lurker finally creating an account mostly to commiserate. My 1.5 year old standard does this as well and it’s annoying and embarrassing. Usually it’s biting the leash when she sees another dog she really wants to play with (we live in busy NYC, so unfortunately that is at least once per walk). 

Things that have not worked for us: Dropping the leash and trying to ignore the behavior, drenching the leash in bitter apple spray (she’s so unfazed that I’ve wondered if she LIKES the taste). 

Things that will work occasionally: Sit & stay, walking 20 steps or so holding her by her harness instead of her leash, subduing her by picking her up off the ground for a moment (Dechi's solution above).

Longer-term solutions that I hope will help: Rewarding her with treats for walking nicely, making sure she gets some off-leash playtime/socialization almost every day.

We have a soft mesh muzzle originally acquired because she kept eating garbage off the ground and I’m thinking of bringing that a long on a few walks. She knows what it is, and while it doesn’t seem to be uncomfortable, she definitely doesn’t like it. I think after one or two incidents the mere sight of it may subdue her. Bad idea?

I’ll check out the links others have posted here as well - this forum is such a great resource. Thanks, all!


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

So, I'm in the same boat. I feel with you. The internet never told us that poodles jump like kangaroos and how come my furbaby doesn't behave like Siba (2020 Westminster Best in Show, Standard Poodle). What gives?!

I would echo FMJ's look-at-me training. This has helped overall with Basil's leash manners. It's gone from like a grade F to a D. She still is too over-stimulated for the pet store, but walking around semi-residentual neighborhoods is more pleasent. We take plenty of time "warming up" on quiet streets prior to any busy human foot traffic. Even though she still has a lot of puppy "play play play" energy and mindset, so she needs grace (6-3/4 months old). I think the eye contact aspect will help create an even tighter and heart melting bond with your curly hair kangaroo furbaby.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would avoid an e-collar - there is a very high risk of turning frustration into outright aggression towards dogs or people if they are associated with the pain. I would think about reducing the frustration - why are other dogs/humans/etc so incredibly exciting? Meet enough of them close to and they become ho-hum, so that may be a starting point. As some may not appreciate the overwhelming excitement starting with dogs and people you know well, or who are in the same training group, would avoid upset. 

When mine were young and silly we would begin to approach, they would pull and yap, I turned and walked away until we were far enough for them to cope, then approach again, and repeat (not being too picky at first) until they got the message that reasonably polite behaviour got them what they wanted. Parallel walking with another compatible dog is extremely useful - walking and sniffing and learning with another dog is a relaxed behaviour, rather than mad playtime. Which is not to say that a few sessions of mad playtime with another dog, with judicious use of time outs, may not be just what is needed. We don't expect small children to sit in rows listening to the teacher all day without regular breaks to run around playing together and letting off steam (and learning a huge amount about social interaction in the process).


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> I feel with you. The internet never told us that poodles jump like kangaroos and how come my furbaby doesn't behave like Siba (2020 Westminster Best in Show, Standard Poodle). What gives?!


Ha ha ha ha ha! 😂

Maybe Siba's owner/handler @peppersb will see this thread and offer tips.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes to a trainer to help you break these behavioral antics safely and effectively. You might be able to find a good trainer near you either through CCPDT.org or through APDT.org. Both organizations are global in nature although I am not sure how strong their presence is in all areas. DO NOT use an ecollar to deal with this. Only very experienced handlers should use ecollars and even for an experienced handler this isn't the right situation to use one (and I do have ecollars and can use them correctly, but use them very rarely). In the meantime you need to help your adolescent learn not to react to everything encountered on a walk. Stay close to home and use counter conditioning types of exercises meant to keep him from getting to the point of reacting to whatever triggers his over the top behaviors. Be aware that counter conditioning goes slowly and you have to make sure the dog stays under threshold at all times or you will undo your progress and end up reinforcing the undesired behavior all over again. I worked with a family a number of years ago who had a basically nice but severely socially deprived rescued dog for about 9 months to get her from the point where she would amp up at the sight of Lily a block away and across the street to be able to be on the same side of the street and two houses apart. In other words, this takes a ton of patience.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Some very good advice here.  I wish you had a trainer like @lily cd re nearby.

Does your poodle have a chance to blow off steam? For example, run around a safe grassy space at full-speed? If walks are his primary form of exercise, even the best training methods are going to be a struggle.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree that something like an ecollar would be the wrong tool for this job. Pogo's histrionics were fueled by a mixture of frustration (wanting to meet the other dog, chase the cargo van) and a touch of anxiety (too little exposure to children and bikes, plus the need to be Snarky's protector.) An ecollar or any aversive would have made him more angry and fearful, not less. 

I like the suggestions about ways to capture and manage the dog's attention before the dog loses his mind, along with suggestions about desensitization. It is so very hard to find kindly people who are willing to volunteer their time with their dog, their child, or their bicycle - but they are immensely helpful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I meant to address this in my earlier post here since anger was mentioned by the OP, but I don't think dogs really get "angry" in the same ways people do. I would describe these kinds of reactions as arising more from frustration and or anxiety than anger. I think the responses to those emotional states should be different than a response to anger.. If I am having an anger based interaction with a person I want to reason with that person. If I am experiencing a person )or dog's) frustration or anxiety reasoning doesn't do much to change things. Instead I want to bring a feeling of safety to the other (don't worry I have your back) and show the other I can serve as an anchoring presence. cowpony you are right it can be hard to find help from others to train these things.

PtP I think if walks are made thinking walks they can be even better at burning energy than wild running. The brain uses huge amounts of glucose energy and making the dog think can be a great way to take care of whatever equivalent dogs have to a "sugar high." My dogs don't care much for random crazy running but really enjoy walks that are thoughtful with sniffing breaks included.


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

I await the opinions of the more experienced but have you tried using a Halti headpiece? It is basically a horse halter type headpiece used instead of attaching the leash to the collar. 
we did not have aggression but our last rescue arrived at age 3-4 never having been walked on a leash and was a 75lb muscled Black and Tan coonhound. He was just way too strong if a scent called to him. He did not love it, but he was placid and easy to walk with it on. Supposedly feels calming due to lightly touching nose. If I understand the pro/con articles online you may be able to adjust a padded model to keep dog from being able to bite while still allowing panting and open mouth.
thought?


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I seriously feel for you. This has been an issue for Bobby since he was about 6 months or so. I will say, after much training work, time and maturity he is SO much better, although sometimes he still will sniff something or get overstimulated and then up he goes, leaping straight up in the air mode. Nobody told me either how mouthy and jumpy poodles can be. Lol! It’s been a journey for sure!

There are a lot of good ideas shared. You will have to try things out and see what works. Not every idea will work for every dog. One example: having Bobby carry a toy does not work. I tried several times as it is a great idea but for him, it actually puts him in high drive mode and he is on a mission of pulling and totally not hearing me so it actually works against me. However, I do have a small squeaky toy in my dog bag and the squeak is an excellent attention getter when needed. So try things and use what works best. And if you can burn off energy, as mentioned, that will help big time as well. I could and still can tell when Bobby needs to seriously burn off energy as he can still get jumpy and mouthy. He walks much better and is more relaxed after he’s burned off the extra energy.

A trainer or a class should definitely help and I highly recommend it. We took an obedience training class that was specifically geared for young and excitable dogs. It was fantastic!!! I learned so much not to mention the practicing around other dogs really helped.
It addressed a lot of walking issues that are so common to young, excitable
dogs. Our training school also has a walking class so maybe something like that if available?

I will say though, the thing that has helped more than anything with overexcitement on walks is teaching a really good heel. I know it’s not an overnight fix but I will tell you, it has helped so much. Bobby is just shy of two years and we have come a long way, but when he goes into leaping mode, it ain’t pretty. We do mostly loose leash walking unless we are on a power walk, but if there is a hint of overexcitement, or if things start to deteriorate, if we are passing something that could trigger a jumping episode, or if he suddenly switches to crazy dog mode, I immediately require a sit then a strict heel, sometimes for just a few minutes and sometimes until we get back home if he can’t settle down. It all depends upon his behavior and what is going on. It seriously is that best thing we have taught him for his walks as he has to focus on me and stay by my side during these times. I keep a short but loose leash during these heeling walks and almost every time it solves the over excitement problem when we walk. Everyone has a different approach but a true heeling walk to me, is a life saver. Heeling gets us past a lot of things and possible triggers. While a different subject, heeling has been the answer for problem pulling as well. 

I do keep things positive, light and fun, even during the heeling walks, and especially during the training phase, treats rule! I used them a lot during this phase. I used to carry a whole hotdog in my left hand as Bobby walks on my left side. I would hold it in my hand and as he was heeling he got to nibble. It worked like a charm. It help teach him the position as I said, “Heel” over and over again. Even though Bobby is now great at heeling, he still needs treats periodically when he gets overexcited and I require the heel. He has to work mighty hard for it now because he knows what he’s supposed to do but after he settles and is once again working hard and focusing, he gets his hard earned reward and he’s much more settled. A periodic treat also gives him something to look forward to. Anyway, all of that to say, I believe heeling can solve a lot of problems.

I truly know how frustrating it can be and things probably won‘t resolve completely for awhile, but with good and consistent training it will get better. Hang in there! You are not alone! They do grow up and with our help, they really do become well trained poodles! 😊


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

Perhaps start a post asking for trainers in NYC that have helped owners here? And what style of training helped owners here too. 
if trainer helps, then consider a walker. two extended Family urban dogs did well when owners used a dog walker. the pack is Calm. The pack goes to dog park. Etc.

I am now pretty concerned how common this jumping with biting seems to be. wheatens with attitude?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I seriously do not recommend head halti harnesses. Many dogs are really reactive to the harness and if it doesn't really work right away it is only likely to increase other people's belief that the dog is aggressive since they often mistake it for a muzzle. There is no quick fix for this situation. As Spottytoes noted her solution was not fast, but did work well once it took hold.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> PtP I think if walks are made thinking walks they can be even better at burning energy than wild running. The brain uses huge amounts of glucose energy and making the dog think can be a great way to take care of whatever equivalent dogs have to a "sugar high." My dogs don't care much for random crazy running but really enjoy walks that are thoughtful with sniffing breaks included.


Even in the early days of leash training, though? When walks are slow and energy is high?

I wouldn't expect an adult dog to have the same needs, but adolescents really tear around sometimes. If I denied Peggy that opportunity and exercised her purely on-leash in environments that demand politeness in the face of myriad stimuli, I think she'd get pretty frustrated.

We like to balance out those sorts of walks with free play and long-leash wanders in more remote areas.

I was just wondering if the OP's poodle has similar opportunities.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

BarbaraInJersey said:


> Perhaps start a post asking for trainers in NYC that have helped owners here? And what style of training helped owners here too.


The OP is located in Sweden. 


BarbaraInJersey said:


> I am now pretty concerned how common this jumping with biting seems to be.


It seems fairly common in early adolescence, but not to the extent that @Faust describes. Your poodle shouldn't be bruising you and it certainly shouldn't drag on for 20 minutes. 

But if it happens in the context of a walk, I can see how that would be much trickier to manage than, for example, in your backyard. When puppy Peggy lost her brain and started leaping and mouthing, the trigger activity immediately ended.

Ending a walk abruptly isn't exactly possible.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> One thing I had to learn with Annie was to watch for signs she was getting over excited, BEFORE she got to the try and bite stage.
> 
> So I would ask for a sit and focus, a down, a stand, a stay, and then as she calmed down, we could continue. If it got too bad, we went inside again. We still do a lot of pausing during Play on/off stuff. So we play play play - I ask for a sit, when she is calm we return to play play play. Slowly working on self control when overexcited. At the start, it might be a 1s sit. Now? Might be a 30 s or one min sit. Her reward is returning to play, not a treat.





Liz A said:


> Long-time lurker finally creating an account mostly to commiserate. My 1.5 year old standard does this as well and it’s annoying and embarrassing. Usually it’s biting the leash when she sees another dog she really wants to play with (we live in busy NYC, so unfortunately that is at least once per walk).
> 
> Things that have not worked for us: Dropping the leash and trying to ignore the behavior, drenching the leash in bitter apple spray (she’s so unfazed that I’ve wondered if she LIKES the taste).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the commiseration!


Liz A said:


> Long-time lurker finally creating an account mostly to commiserate. My 1.5 year old standard does this as well and it’s annoying and embarrassing. Usually it’s biting the leash when she sees another dog she really wants to play with (we live in busy NYC, so unfortunately that is at least once per walk).
> 
> Things that have not worked for us: Dropping the leash and trying to ignore the behavior, drenching the leash in bitter apple spray (she’s so unfazed that I’ve wondered if she LIKES the taste).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the commiseration! I bought a soft muzzle but when I put it on him it made my husband really upset because the dog looked super upset... and it felt cruel and we were both emotionally drained oursevles. So we haven't tried it again. Needless to say we've both shed a lot of tears over this dog!!


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Yes to a trainer to help you break these behavioral antics safely and effectively. You might be able to find a good trainer near you either through CCPDT.org or through APDT.org. Both organizations are global in nature although I am not sure how strong their presence is in all areas. DO NOT use an ecollar to deal with this. Only very experienced handlers should use ecollars and even for an experienced handler this isn't the right situation to use one (and I do have ecollars and can use them correctly, but use them very rarely). In the meantime you need to help your adolescent learn not to react to everything encountered on a walk. Stay close to home and use counter conditioning types of exercises meant to keep him from getting to the point of reacting to whatever triggers his over the top behaviors. Be aware that counter conditioning goes slowly and you have to make sure the dog stays under threshold at all times or you will undo your progress and end up reinforcing the undesired behavior all over again. I worked with a family a number of years ago who had a basically nice but severely socially deprived rescued dog for about 9 months to get her from the point where she would amp up at the sight of Lily a block away and across the street to be able to be on the same side of the street and two houses apart. In other words, this takes a ton of patience.


Thanks for this advice! As I said in one of my previous posts we've talked to trainers. They generally think Mephi is fearless - I tend to agree, he has never shown fear of anything that dogs typically are afraid of... it's almost weird - and so his reactions are "positive stress" in that he is getting excited in a good way - not scared or fearful - but that he wants to go play and rush over to greet whoever he sees. But that makes counter conditioning difficult, if I'm understanding it correctly? Because he already has a "positive" association with people, dogs, etc. When we're in a dog park, he runs up to greet everyone in the park (human and dog) and then is fine to come back to me but when we're on walks, he can't do that and I think he gets frustrated. Is there something counter conditioning-wise that we could do on the leash? I have tried to distract him with toys or treats but if it's another dog, there's no distraction on this planet that can entice him.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Some very good advice here.  I wish you had a trainer like @lily cd re nearby.
> 
> Does your poodle have a chance to blow off steam? For example, run around a safe grassy space at full-speed? If walks are his primary form of exercise, even the best training methods are going to be a struggle.


Yeah this is part of the issue. But it's a major time commitment. If I can't get him to a dog park (we also have a few near us that are usually empty so we just play with a ball) every day, then he's super pent up. We had a recent relapse with the jumping and biting bc he had kennel cough and the vet didn't want him running around - but then he had loads of pent up energy bc the silly little guy doesn't understand that he was sick of course. It's just really hard to spend like 2 hours a day in the dog park (that tends to be the minimum time - he won't get tired after like 15 minutes).


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Spottytoes said:


> I seriously feel for you. This has been an issue for Bobby since he was about 6 months or so. I will say, after much training work, time and maturity he is SO much better, although sometimes he still will sniff something or get overstimulated and then up he goes, leaping straight up in the air mode. Nobody told me either how mouthy and jumpy poodles can be. Lol! It’s been a journey for sure!
> 
> There are a lot of good ideas shared. You will have to try things out and see what works. Not every idea will work for every dog. One example: having Bobby carry a toy does not work. I tried several times as it is a great idea but for him, it actually puts him in high drive mode and he is on a mission of pulling and totally not hearing me so it actually works against me. However, I do have a small squeaky toy in my dog bag and the squeak is an excellent attention getter when needed. So try things and use what works best. And if you can burn off energy, as mentioned, that will help big time as well. I could and still can tell when Bobby needs to seriously burn off energy as he can still get jumpy and mouthy. He walks much better and is more relaxed after he’s burned off the extra energy.
> 
> ...


Thanks! That's good to know that he's gotten better with time! We do heel work and eye contract for treats taken at our side while we walk and honestly 90% of the time he walks really nice, loose leash... it's just if we see a dog he goes crazy and then turns and starts jumping and biting. So basically it's a nice walk and then suddenly he'll start jumping and biting. Or sometimes when he knows we're heading back toward home he does it - like, he's trying to get us not to go home so soon smh should have gotten a dumber dog haha


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> The OP is located in Sweden.
> 
> 
> It seems fairly common in early adolescence, but not to the extent that @Faust describes. Your poodle shouldn't be bruising you and it certainly shouldn't drag on for 20 minutes.
> ...


Yeah exactly - this is the issue for sure! If he puts his mouth on us in the house, we give him a timeout in his room but we can't do that when we're outside obviously. 

It's just crazy because I feel like we've tried so many things - he went to a puppy preschool where it was basically training prior to dog daycare where they tried to desensitize him to other dogs (they said they haven't seen a dog take so long to try to desensitize), and he goes one a week to dog daycare now (they have to keep him in a separate room and walk him separately). I went to two obedience classes. Both of them he couldn't do anything while at the class because he was so distracted the whole time by the other dogs. The second one we actually only went to one session bc he lost his mind and the trainer did private one on one with us after that. He's fine when there aren't other dogs around or children running or stuff like that. Just a couple adults and a trainer, he acts normal ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ As far as I know he's never done the jumping and biting thing with anyone other than us. It's so frustrating... I'm trying the Pigs Fly training method with him now hoping I can capture behaviors but he's not treat motivated at all - he doesn't even eat that much - mostly grazes like a cat. So I've been giving him a disposable face mask as a treat hahaha because _that _he wants. 😂


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Faust said:


> Yeah this is part of the issue. But it's a major time commitment. If I can't get him to a dog park (we also have a few near us that are usually empty so we just play with a ball) every day, then he's super pent up. We had a recent relapse with the jumping and biting bc he had kennel cough and the vet didn't want him running around - but then he had loads of pent up energy bc the silly little guy doesn't understand that he was sick of course. It's just really hard to spend like 2 hours a day in the dog park (that tends to be the minimum time - he won't get tired after like 15 minutes).


Two hours? Oh goodness no! I wouldn't be up for that either. I was thinking more like five minutes of fetch and zoomies before a training session.

Poodle energy levels vary, and Peggy's may be lower than your poodle's, but we did spend an awful lot of her puppyhood practising calm. In fact, that was a good part of her first session of classes—just learning to relax. 

She made a fool of herself, of course. I think a lot of poodle puppies do. They don't handle repetition well and have an amazing ability to look everywhere at once. It helps to have a trainer who understands this and can help you harness that poodle super power rather than fight it. 

Have you done much work with your boy on learning how to settle? Just sitting calmly with a steady stream of high-value treats at first, and then slowly tapering them off, can be hugely beneficial. 

And what do you mean he's kept in a separate room at daycare? He's not allowed in with the other dogs?


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Two hours? Oh goodness no! I wouldn't be up for that either. I was thinking more like five minutes of fetch and zoomies before a training session.
> 
> Poodle energy levels vary, and Peggy's may be lower than your poodle's, but we did spend an awful lot of her puppyhood practising calm. In fact, that was a good part of her first session of classes—just learning to relax.
> 
> ...


Yeah we've been told by trainers about capturing calm... and tried to do mat training. He doesn't know what calm is still though. He has two speeds: ADHD hunting around and sleeping. We need to keep working at it I guess. Back at 7 months of age, we were spending like 4 hours a day in the dog park and he didn't show any signs of tiredness. I was kicking a football for hours with him and he was still running at top speed - insane. 

At the daycare, they have different rooms when the dogs are inside - so usually like 4 dogs share a room. When he was in preschool, the staff had him in their staff room and brought other dogs in to meet him. Now, if he's not in his own room, he won't leave the other dogs alone. He basically will just keep harassing them to play and they don't want to. So, he gets to meet other dogs briefly but he's not able to hang out with them bc he's too much. He does this with my friend's dog as well so we can't really hang out with them anymore. Her dog (same age) just wants to sit and chill and Mephi will stand over him and bark in his ear. It's annoying for dogs and humans alike.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I can see the vicious circle - he is a pain around other dogs, so you try to avoid them, so he becomes even more excited when he sees them and even more of a pain...

As he is obviously an extreme case I would redouble your efforts to find a trainer/behaviourist who can really help. I am interested that you say he only jumps and bites with you, despite getting equally excited when with other people when dogs are around. To me that indicates learning different handling methods could at least save you from bouncing and bruising.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

fjm said:


> I can see the vicious circle - he is a pain around other dogs, so you try to avoid them, so he becomes even more excited when he sees them and even more of a pain...
> 
> As he is obviously an extreme case I would redouble your efforts to find a trainer/behaviourist who can really help. I am interested that you say he only jumps and bites with you, despite getting equally excited when with other people when dogs are around. To me that indicates learning different handling methods could at least save you from bouncing and bruising.


Yeah I can see that 

The trainers we had told us to avoid other dogs while we're on walks bc they are triggers. Of course, he does play with other dogs at the dog park but he never seems to "get used to them" - he always finds other dogs CRAZY exciting. 

He really only jumps and bites when he's on the leash. The few times he's jumped up when we're playing in the park and he's off leash, he does it like once - not repeatedly for 15 minutes. We don't usually let him greet people when he's on a leash bc he gets too over-excited. But when he greets other humans at the dog park or whatnot when he's off leash, he's generally fairly chill. He'll run up, get a head pat, and run back. He won't jump at all usually. So, it definitely seems to be a leash thing.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Leash frustration. How is he with other dogs when off leash - still over the top or rather better?


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

fjm said:


> Leash frustration. How is he with other dogs when off leash - still over the top or rather better?


Definitely better - he still wants to run up and play with them. And if they're not into it he won't give up - he'll keep trying to play. That's why it's usually better if there's a dog park with multiple dogs since if it's just one dog, he has too much focus on that dog and if the dog's not into it, he doesn't know how to back off. We go to this really huge dog park that's an island - so has the illusion of off-leash since in Sweden off-leash isn't allowed anywhere. If he sees another dog on the opposite end of the island, he'll sprint at full speed toward them and then come to a stop about 2 meters from the other dog... then slowly approach and say hello. It's the initial excitement where he just wants to take off after any dog. Then he's sort of satisfied when he gets to say hi and sometimes just comes back again.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds as if he understands how to greet politely, and even how to take no for an answer, which is excellent. It also sounds as if the leash is getting in the way of him greeting in the only way he understands, so there is no way for him to release the first burst of enthusiasm and it escalates into overwhelming frustration, that can only be let out through bouncing and biting. 

I still think meeting lots of bored and boring dogs is the answer - including a few who know how to tell him off firmly but kindly! Humans can do just so much when it comes to teaching polite greeting behaviour - dogs are much, much better at it. His puppy licence will be running out, and he is likely to experience some growls and even air snaps as older dogs teach him manners - no problem as long as it does not escalate.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

fjm said:


> It sounds as if he understands how to greet politely, and even how to take no for an answer, which is excellent. It also sounds as if the leash is getting in the way of him greeting in the only way he understands, so there is no way for him to release the first burst of enthusiasm and it escalates into overwhelming frustration, that can only be let out through bouncing and biting.
> 
> I still think meeting lots of bored and boring dogs is the answer - including a few who know how to tell him off firmly but kindly! Humans can do just so much when it comes to teaching polite greeting behaviour - dogs are much, much better at it. His puppy licence will be running out, and he is likely to experience some growls and even air snaps as older dogs teach him manners - no problem as long as it does not escalate.


Thanks for all your thoughts on this! It's given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate it! I will definitely try to let him sort things out with other dogs as much as possible. Hopefully eventually he'll learn to back off! In the meantime, I'll keep trying to redirect and distract while he's on a leash. I found a helpful article on frustration reactivity but it requires another dog to do the exercises (Frustrated On Leash? - Whole Dog Journal). I was thinking maybe I could just turn on a TV program with dogs since that also drives him nuts - he just has to see a dog on TV and he goes crazy barking and running behind the TV trying to find it. 😂 Or I guess try to go near a dog park where there are other dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It may well be that he likes the idea of playing with other dogs but that kind of response to seeing other dogs is not normal and still is provoking all kinds of bad neurological and hormonal responses that he is "learning" everytime he makes those responses. Learning promotes behaviors, bad as well as good. Once he sees a dog that he wants to access and go crazy then he is experiencing frustration and that is not a good emotional state. I think many people see frustration and its results (jumping, biting to get you to let go of the leash and pulling on leash) are behaviors that can be counter conditioned.

I doubt a TV program with dogs will help. He needs to see real dogs at distances that keep him under threshold with the key part of the work being staying under threshold. Are there many people who walk on leash dogs in your neighborhood? If yes, you sit in a chair outside your front door and watch them go by. Work on keeping your dog's attention and collected head and reward that. If you see that he is going to go over the top take him inside before he starts to go crazy. This is essentially what I did with the dog I described in my earlier post. She wasn't fearful at all, but had terrible social skills around other animals because she was developmentally deprived in her first year of life because she spent most of her time penned up in a run all by herself. A trainer who knows their stuff should be able to help with that counter conditioning based training.

No dog in the world should be allowed to run aimlessly for two hours. It just isn't necessary and it reinforces being out of control. I suspect if you spent ten minutes at a time 3-4 times per day doing impulse control activities with your dog you would be thrilled with the outcome. He will gain patience and will become more bonded to you than you can possibly believe is possible. I still do that kind of activity with my poodles and the result is two very high drive dogs that love to work with me but also have enough stimulus control to recognize that while I am lecturing to a human class or while I am teaching a novice obedience class to be able to lie down and go to sleep. As I type they are both sleeping within about ten feet from my desk.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Not sure if this is true for you too.... But I find if I take Annie to a dog park every day and she runs like mad... Her excitability goes through the roof. It seems that when you exercise a dog's body and excitement a lot, they get better at running and being excited. When you exercise their mind and self control, they get better at self control. She still needs to have some mindless running, but I am careful to make sure that's not the only thing we do.

So we go weekly, as she needs to run off leash. Maybe 3 x a week, but usually at times when there is only one or two other dogs there, or no one there. I also like to take her for offleash or long line hikes to drain energy. I take her out when she shows any signs of flagging - exhausted dogs are dogs more likely to get careless and injured. 

Overarrousal with squirrels - I dealt with this in many ways, some more successful than others, but the biggest thing I learned was to restrict daytime walks to 5 min or less while we were dealing with it. Every time she saw a trigger (squirrel) she got more and more amped up. If I kept walks shorter, she could deal with a couple squirrels without becoming a psycho barking brainless poodle. 

Sniffing - smelling walks, and our hikes usually, is also a really good form of stress relief for a dog. 

A border collie trainer I went to ( she trains and competes with high drive dogs in herding, flyball, agility, etc and cheerfully admits most people wouldn't want to live with her dogs) suggested to me that to teach Annie calm, I start by teaching her an AWESOME down stay. Every time I worked in the kitchen, she was put in a stay, and I yoss treats at her. An active alert stay is fine. A treat every 10s for a while, then every 15s, .... 1 min, 2 min ... Randomly through the session ( I used to watch the clock). A long down stay is incredibly mentally draining. I also threw a treat at her every time she relaxed into it. Head down? Treat. Her leg cocked out? Treat. Roll onto a hip? Treat. Flop over? Treat. It helped, and bonus points, Annie now stays out of my way in her spot in the kitchen. She also suggested Annie work for her dinner to drain off energy in a productive manner. So a Kong wobbler, scatter her food on the floor, puzzle toys, Kongs, and working directly with me for her dinner.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Brava For Want of Poodle!!! You hit the nail on the head in your first paragraph.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> It may well be that he likes the idea of playing with other dogs but that kind of response to seeing other dogs is not normal and still is provoking all kinds of bad neurological and hormonal responses that he is "learning" everytime he makes those responses. Learning promotes behaviors, bad as well as good. Once he sees a dog that he wants to access and go crazy then he is experiencing frustration and that is not a good emotional state. I think many people see frustration and its results (jumping, biting to get you to let go of the leash and pulling on leash) are behaviors that can be counter conditioned.
> 
> I doubt a TV program with dogs will help. He needs to see real dogs at distances that keep him under threshold with the key part of the work being staying under threshold. Are there many people who walk on leash dogs in your neighborhood? If yes, you sit in a chair outside your front door and watch them go by. Work on keeping your dog's attention and collected head and reward that. If you see that he is going to go over the top take him inside before he starts to go crazy. This is essentially what I did with the dog I described in my earlier post. She wasn't fearful at all, but had terrible social skills around other animals because she was developmentally deprived in her first year of life because she spent most of her time penned up in a run all by herself. A trainer who knows their stuff should be able to help with that counter conditioning based training.
> 
> No dog in the world should be allowed to run aimlessly for two hours. It just isn't necessary and it reinforces being out of control. I suspect if you spent ten minutes at a time 3-4 times per day doing impulse control activities with your dog you would be thrilled with the outcome. He will gain patience and will become more bonded to you than you can possibly believe is possible. I still do that kind of activity with my poodles and the result is two very high drive dogs that love to work with me but also have enough stimulus control to recognize that while I am lecturing to a human class or while I am teaching a novice obedience class to be able to lie down and go to sleep. As I type they are both sleeping within about ten feet from my desk.


Any advice on how to reward in that kind of situation when the dog doesn’t care about food / treats? He had very little interest, so any kind of food - even like meatballs or cheese - will never entice him if there’s a dog nearby. Toys excite him so I feel like that would be counter productive?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

@ Faust 

If he's too excited for food - he's way overthreshold. Too overthreshold to learn. Practice something (I like the sit and back up, sit, and back up) and proof it in a lower excitement environments, and then slowly work up to the higher threshold stuff. Turning and walking away, and being content with a walk never actually going anywhere helps - I have been known to just walk back and forth 1 house down my street.

Also - get REALLY good food. I once did a walk with Annie with bits of raw beef, which was very successful. Cheese, cooked meat, etc are good too. I've also had some success recently with making food more interesing by kind of using it like it;s prey, making Annie chase it a bit. Maybe not a good idea with an overwound up spoo who wants to nip, though.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Not sure if this is true for you too.... But I find if I take Annie to a dog park every day and she runs like mad... Her excitability goes through the roof. It seems that when you exercise a dog's body and excitement a lot, they get better at running and being excited. When you exercise their mind and self control, they get better at self control. She still needs to have some mindless running, but I am careful to make sure that's not the only thing we do.
> 
> So we go weekly, as she needs to run off leash. Maybe 3 x a week, but usually at times when there is only one or two other dogs there, or no one there. I also like to take her for offleash or long line hikes to drain energy. I take her out when she shows any signs of flagging - exhausted dogs are dogs more likely to get careless and injured.
> 
> ...





For Want of Poodle said:


> Not sure if this is true for you too.... But I find if I take Annie to a dog park every day and she runs like mad... Her excitability goes through the roof. It seems that when you exercise a dog's body and excitement a lot, they get better at running and being excited. When you exercise their mind and self control, they get better at self control. She still needs to have some mindless running, but I am careful to make sure that's not the only thing we do.
> 
> So we go weekly, as she needs to run off leash. Maybe 3 x a week, but usually at times when there is only one or two other dogs there, or no one there. I also like to take her for offleash or long line hikes to drain energy. I take her out when she shows any signs of flagging - exhausted dogs are dogs more likely to get careless and injured.
> 
> ...


that sounds awesome! I only wish Mephi were at all interested in treat or food. I’ve filled kongs with every nice treat imaginable and he couldn’t care less!

the breeder also said don’t over exercise him bc it will make him used to more exercise... but it feels like I’m stuck - he doesn’t get tired from training - he just gets bored after a while bc he’s no longer interested in the rewards (he wants maybe like one or two treats then walks away or just leaves them on the ground). he acts even more wild if I don’t let him go run around outside hah!


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> @ Faust
> 
> If he's too excited for food - he's way overthreshold. Too overthreshold to learn. Practice something (I like the sit and back up, sit, and back up) and proof it in a lower excitement environments, and then slowly work up to the higher threshold stuff. Turning and walking away, and being content with a walk never actually going anywhere helps - I have been known to just walk back and forth 1 house down my street.
> 
> Also - get REALLY good food. I once did a walk with Annie with bits of raw beef, which was very successful. Cheese, cooked meat, etc are good too. I've also had some success recently with making food more interesing by kind of using it like it;s prey, making Annie chase it a bit. Maybe not a good idea with an overwound up spoo who wants to nip, though.


funny enough I can leave raw meat out for him in his bowl and he doesn’t touch it for hours.., then might come eat it later. Sometimes he just leaves it completely 🤦‍♀️


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I'm responding to this again, just because I think I went through a lot of the same issues you are having when Annie was 7 mo-12 mo ish. 

A lot of poodles don't seem to be able to handle more than a couple repetitions at a time. That's normal! Always stop when they still want more, even if it's only one repetition, and slowly they will want to work more, because they never feel like it got tiring/boring/not fun. 1 repetition 10 times in a day is more effective than 10 repetitions all at once anyway. If he wasn't finished, next time he will be more excited to work. 

What DOES he enjoy? You can work on self control using anything he enjoys as the reward, it's just a bit more difficult for the human . For example, Annie LOVES walks. So to get her leash on, she has to sit and stay. To get me to open the door, sit and stay. To cross the street? Sit at heel position, eyes on me. Out of the car? Wait for permission. Enter the dog park? Sit and stay and wait for permission, then I open the door. Playing ball? Sit and stay and then the ball gets thrown. Tug? Sit and wait or down and wait, and then we play, then a pause, sit and wait and play. We build it up, increasing time and complexity of what I ask so she knows that doing what I want and showing self control = getting what she wants. 

For food- a lot of dogs are more motivated to eat if they have to work for it. Our Yorkie is a pain to eat kibble, but put it in a puzzle toy (we started with treats, now just use kibble) and she gobbles it down and works really hard to get it. When Annie refused to eat for a while, tossing her food on the floor to hunt and find meant she would actually eat. Things that are free have little value. I will comment that the stages where she was uninterested in food was also the stage when I took her to doggy daycare every day or took her to the park everyday. It was too much stress for her, so she stopped eating, even though she loved going. She also stops eating on camping trips. She loves them, but they are also very overstimulating. She needs to be calm to want to eat. 

As for settling... Do you crate him at all? Does he have any napping time? I had to enforce crate rest for a while when she was a puppy. Also, if he is used to a highly active lifestyle, it will take time and perseverance to get him used to a less active one, and to de-stress from it. Maybe a week or two of him being more annoying than usual. (I went through this when I stopped bringing Annie to the dog park every day).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Faust said:


> Back at 7 months of age, we were spending like 4 hours a day in the dog park and he didn't show any signs of tiredness. I was kicking a football for hours with him and he was still running at top speed - insane.


Exercise is important, but it's a delicate balance. There's a point at which adrenaline takes over. The article I linked here might be helpful to you.

If we play a _serious_ game of fetch with Peggy (i.e. more than a dozen fun tosses mixed in with other play) she is amped up for the rest of the day. It takes a while for the stress hormones to leave the body and extended games of fetch are extremely stressful.

If your boy has been exercised like that since he was a young puppy, you may need to hit a big reset button. You may have inadvertently created quite an adrenaline junkie/marathon athlete. 

Here's some more info: Too Much of a Good Thing: Overexcitement in Exercise


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Give rewards your dog will appreciate as rewards. It could be as simple as a little personal play like an ear scratch or belly rub.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I'm responding to this again, just because I think I went through a lot of the same issues you are having when Annie was 7 mo-12 mo ish.
> 
> A lot of poodles don't seem to be able to handle more than a couple repetitions at a time. That's normal! Always stop when they still want more, even if it's only one repetition, and slowly they will want to work more, because they never feel like it got tiring/boring/not fun. 1 repetition 10 times in a day is more effective than 10 repetitions all at once anyway. If he wasn't finished, next time he will be more excited to work.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for the advice! I really appreciate you taking the time!

I guess I just have to keep working to try to make him wait for things. 

He definitely naps. When he was 6-7 months he never sat down but now he will nap a good portion of the day. So we have a small room (it’s a loggia / about 4-5 square meters approx) that is his crate - it has a gate. I got a crate when he was a puppy but I think he doesnt like not having the space above his head. So we treat the little room like his crate basically. He spends a decent amount of time in there. Probably about 3 hours during work hours and maybe an hour or hour and a half at night. We used to have him in there more but found he acts up less outside he can hang out with us more outside his room during the day. If he starts barking or getting into things he shouldn’t he gets time out there. 

Interesting about the over stimulation thing and eating. He doesn’t seem very over stimulated except for getting excited outside on walks. We actually had a relapse of bad behavior when we had to restrict his exercise due to kennel cough two weeks ago. He definitely is better behaved if he gets a bit of dog park time. His usual schedule these days is 4 times outside per day, 2 just to pee and inside, 2 walks of between 15 and 45 minutes depending on the day. He goes to daycare once a week. And I try to take him to the big dog park with lots of other dogs once a week. Usually I take him to the empty dog park once a week too. This is way down from summer when we were spending hours and hours out - but with it getting dark here now at 3:30pm it’s hard to have daylight hours to go to the park (it’s not lit at night) and still hold down a paying job!  

Mephi doesn’t love to hunt for food either. We have puzzle games but he’s not super motivated usually. Same with a Kong. He does like gnawing on bones. He definitely isn’t excited for walks - when he sees me take out the leash he grabs the nearest bone or toy and goes to sit on the couch and refuses to move. Haha

what he loves? Other dogs haha


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Exercise is important, but it's a delicate balance. There's a point at which adrenaline takes over. The article I linked here might be helpful to you.
> 
> If we play a _serious_ game of fetch with Peggy (i.e. more than a dozen fun tosses mixed in with other play) she is amped up for the rest of the day. It takes a while for the stress hormones to leave the body and extended games of fetch are extremely stressful.
> 
> ...


haha thanks! It was initially a reaction to his crazy energy level - thought we were giving him what he needed - but I hear what you’re saying! It felt like the only way we could keep him from bouncing off the walls. I hope we didn’t ruin him now 😰 the jumping/biting came back with a vengeance when we had to ease up on our usual outside time


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Sounds like you are doing a lot ! I guess my final piece of advice is it takes time, and perseverance pays off. Annie at almost 2 years old is WAY easier to live with than Annie at 12 months.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Sounds like you are doing a lot ! I guess my final piece of advice is it takes time, and perseverance pays off. Annie at almost 2 years old is WAY easier to live with than Annie at 12 months.


thanks! Hoping for the same 😊


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## Marchie's Mom (Nov 18, 2016)

Faust said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.
> 
> T


I had to chime in here. Marchie sounds like your pup's double in many ways. As a youngster, he had zero frustration tolerance and would pitch a fit if we wouldn't let him meet another dog while on a walk. Standing up on his hind legs, pawing the air, to get the other dog's attention; nipping and biting us when he didn't get his way. Not motivated in the least, by food or toys, and unable to handle a group dog class once he hit 6 months because he HAD to socialize and didn't want to be controlled when other dogs were around.

Well, the good news is, they get better as they mature. One year old was better, two years was even better, and now, at four years old, he rarely does the "attack Mom (or Dad) when he doesn't get his way" thing. 

Things that helped for us: Draining off energy by letting him play with another dog in a fenced yard or at the dog park (It turns out, he's got good social skills with dogs and with people.) In our yard, we used a homemade flirt pole to exercise him. (Make sure he's got a good GIVE command so you can retrieve the "prize" from him.) Using their brains is equally tiring to dogs. Once we had a firm SIT and WAIT, we'd show him a toy, leave him on a sit, and hide it in the house, then return and ask him to FIND it. That was very good for taking the edge off him. 

Lastly, when out on a walk, when he pulls that act, I can always see it coming now, and I stop, put the leash under my shoe so he can't jump, and turn my back on him until he cools down. Sometimes I get a nip in the butt, but he doesn't get any joy from my non-reaction, so he settles down.

Having a high drive dog is hard. If you can find some channel for his energy, until he gets more mature, and learns more commands firmly, it will help. Perhaps when he's a year old, you can get him a backpack and have him carry a load too. He will mellow out and your walks will improve. Until then, I recommend a sturdy dog walking outfit (I always wore heavy jeans and something on my arms, like a jacket) to protect you. There's hope: every dog owner in our neighborhood (and virtually every dog) loves Marchie and thinks he's perfect. Little do they know what we went through when he was young.


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## Raven in the Sky (May 4, 2020)

Faust said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.
> 
> ...


Hi Faust,
I have my first poodle, she is almost 2 years old. She went through a period when it was like a switch turned on and she would growl, bite, jump and bark at me with such energy that it seemed that she couldn’t even hear me. I’d walk away, but she’d follow and continue this behavior. I read a couple of books by the Monks of New Skete, a group that has bred and raised German shepherds for a couple of decades. They had some really good training instructions and ways to control wild behavior. Luckily for me when these wild tantrums occurred we were usually in our fenced backyard. So I could eventually grab her and apply the control techniques. After a while the episodes became less frequent and now she is turning into an amazing dog. She still has an occasional rare wild hair, but as long as I can hold her and give her some firm hugging and body rubs, she will calm down. I kept trying to figure out if there was some pattern to the wild behavior, and for a while I thought it might be happening when she was hungry, maybe a hangry reaction. I think as she has gotten older, everything is more moderated. If you can get your hands on a copy of their book (one is “How to be your dog’s best friend”, another is a puppy training book), I highly recommend them.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Marchie's Mom said:


> I had to chime in here. Marchie sounds like your pup's double in many ways. As a youngster, he had zero frustration tolerance and would pitch a fit if we wouldn't let him meet another dog while on a walk. Standing up on his hind legs, pawing the air, to get the other dog's attention; nipping and biting us when he didn't get his way. Not motivated in the least, by food or toys, and unable to handle a group dog class once he hit 6 months because he HAD to socialize and didn't want to be controlled when other dogs were around.
> 
> Well, the good news is, they get better as they mature. One year old was better, two years was even better, and now, at four years old, he rarely does the "attack Mom (or Dad) when he doesn't get his way" thing.
> 
> ...


Thanks! That's reassuring! Your dog sounds pretty much exactly like Mephi.  Fingers crossed that he settles down in the next 8-12 months!


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Raven in the Sky said:


> Hi Faust,
> I have my first poodle, she is almost 2 years old. She went through a period when it was like a switch turned on and she would growl, bite, jump and bark at me with such energy that it seemed that she couldn’t even hear me. I’d walk away, but she’d follow and continue this behavior. I read a couple of books by the Monks of New Skete, a group that has bred and raised German shepherds for a couple of decades. They had some really good training instructions and ways to control wild behavior. Luckily for me when these wild tantrums occurred we were usually in our fenced backyard. So I could eventually grab her and apply the control techniques. After a while the episodes became less frequent and now she is turning into an amazing dog. She still has an occasional rare wild hair, but as long as I can hold her and give her some firm hugging and body rubs, she will calm down. I kept trying to figure out if there was some pattern to the wild behavior, and for a while I thought it might be happening when she was hungry, maybe a hangry reaction. I think as she has gotten older, everything is more moderated. If you can get your hands on a copy of their book (one is “How to be your dog’s best friend”, another is a puppy training book), I highly recommend them.


Thanks for the tips!  I'll check out the book!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Out of interest, how many were there in your puppy's litter? Singleton pups are notorious for missing out on how to deal with frustration, lacking the experience of rough and tumble with siblings.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

fjm said:


> Out of interest, how many were there in your puppy's litter? Singleton pups are notorious for missing out on how to deal with frustration, lacking the experience of rough and tumble with siblings.


There were 8 very boisterous puppies - plus usually 3 adult dogs around - so I don't think lack of contact or play with others was an issue at all. The times I visited they were all rolling around on top of each other. And actually he was the favorite puppy for everyone who was there to get a puppy because he was very friendly and social - i felt very lucky that I got him. Now I kind of wish I had a more quiet shy one haha... tho that comes with its own issues. Maybe part of it is that the puppies were basically allowed free rein on a farm to run and play around to their hearts content and I live in an apartment so it's just dog park and walks.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Not a singleton, then! Just the life and soul of the party - which is probably easier to manage long term than shyness and timidity, as you say.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

fjm I agree that it is easier to manage an "up" dog than a shy or fearful one completely. Javelin has a very "forward" personality and he does test my limits lots, but he will never do anything slowly or looking miderable at it.

As to the Monks of New Skete, I have read a couple of their books and enjoyed them as well written and meaningful, but I do hope that anyone who reads some of their older material knows very clearly that they no longer endorse the methods like the alpha role espoused in The Art of Raising a Puppy. They have been convinced by evidence that training based on dominance hierarchies is not necessary nor desirable.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

I just thought I'd post an update on how we're doing over here now that Mephi is just over a year old. Maybe if someone like me finds this thread, it will be comforting.

He's definitely still very high energy but he has gotten much much better... notably, way more calm inside the house. We still don't trust him out of his room when we're not in the house with him -- he still likes to do his 'rounds' and get into everything. However, he will actually lay on the floor and sleep now when he's out of his room, which we couldn't have ever imagined a few months ago. It used to be he would only sleep or sit down if we put him in his room.

As for the jumping and biting on walks, that's definitely gotten much better. It has been a lot of work, though. My husband and I marvel at all the people who just go on walks with their dogs and basically ignore the dog and look at their phone because we still both go out on every walk (the two long ones per day not the out and pee breaks) and have to train his attention the whole time. For the routes he's used to, he's calm for the most part. We do 'look at me' basically the whole walk still but he's quite good at it now so follows along spontaneously looking up at us a lot of the time. He's still a strange strange dog who is picky with treats and rejects the ones he doesn't like more often than not and gets tired of others he used to like after a day. So we're always trying to change up treats to see what he'll actually take. On walks, he usually ignores adult humans now, unless they're doing something unusual. He even started ignoring children who jump and skip and run, which is huge. Dogs remain a problem so we mostly just avoid any dog we might see on the horizon and hope he hasn't clocked them yet.

It seems he's definitely a 'reactive' dog in terms of excitement (not so much that he's aggressive or fearful) and it's a leash issue. When he's off leash in the dog park he doesn't try to jump up on anybody... the most he will do is just go up and lick their hand. When we try to meet people when he's on leash, he wants to jump up on them in such an over-excited way even dog lovers can't really handle it. So usually I don't let him say hi to people when he's on leash.

There have been a couple times when we change up the routine or people are doing exciting stuff that he does the jumping and biting on walks still but we can usually get him to sit straight away or we throw a treat away from us and he goes and gets it. When there are dogs around, there's no way he'll even look at me. We go to a massive dog park that is its own little island, which that he loves because it's the only place where he can really run since we're not allowed to have dogs off leash in this country. But I laugh because the other dogs all just follow their owners around the island while playing. Mephi runs off and does not care where I am. I could leave and he wouldn't even notice or care. So I spend a lot of time following him around this island instead of him following me. Eventually I need to figure out how to get him to listen to me when there are dogs around. Otherwise, he has pretty good recall but the presence of other dogs means he's effectively deaf to me.

TL;DR it got better at 1 year - he's not a calm dog and still has a lot of training challenges and requires a lot of extra attention, but he's no longer mauling us every day on walks! The vast majority of routine walks are totally calm and fine.


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## Befchak (May 4, 2021)

Faust said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.
> 
> ...


Si


Faust said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.
> 
> ...


i came Ro the forum today because


Faust said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been lurking on this forum for a while but haven't posted. I have a teenage standard poodle - 10 months old now. Since about 7 months, he's been doing this thing on walks where he "attacks" us. It's fairly clear it's rough play and not really angry/aggressive. But something will set him off - seeing another dog, a person running, a bike, etc. - and then he will get over-excited and turn on us and start growling, jumping, and biting. It usually takes a good 15-20 minutes to calm him down, meanwhile all the people walking by are staring at me while I'm mauled by my dog. Since he's now 26 kg (57 lbs) and uses the full force of his jaw, it really hurts. I'm covered in bruises. Ignoring him isn't an option because of course he's actually doing damage.
> 
> ...


i came to the forum today, because we have the same jumping biting issue with our 5 month old stpoodle.
He’s been in training for two months now, and is definitely making progress with most behaviors, but very concerned about him making us on walks.
Curious if your dog has improved since you posted this six months ago, and if so what do you feel has helped.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

Befchak said:


> Si
> 
> i came Ro the forum today because
> 
> ...


hi there! I feel your pain! Oh those were some dark days last summer! Our Mephi made us cry almost daily 😰

I’m happy to report that he’s a totally different dog at almost 1.5 years old. I remember when we were struggling with him at 7 months old, a trainer said “oh he’ll be a good dog at 2 years” and we were absolutely horrified - 2 years??? We need to put up with this for another year and a half?

It happened very gradually that he got better and calmer. First he settled in the house - he used to be very busy all the time getting into things or wanting to play but now he really just sleeps 90% of the time while we’re inside. He still does what we call “jumpy bitey” once in a while on walks if something triggers him - usually another dog. Most of the time we can get him to sit or distract him away from what’s exciting him. He also knows that sitting gets him whatever he wants so having an ironclad sit command helped a lot. Also remaining absolutely calm ourselves - paying attention to your own body language. We also practiced “look at me” every single walk (4 times a day) the whole walk so that he now instinctively looks when people or motorcycles or bikes pass. Dogs still are a big trigger and nothing on this earth will get him to ignore them. So we try to avoid meeting other dogs while on walks when possible.

I really hate to say it but all the people who told me last year it just takes time were right. Training did not do it so much as just him growing up. He still has his moments but all in all the angelic, good behavior outweighs the tantrums. We constantly marvel at how much better things are now. It started getting better from a year old and has only improved.

Good luck - I know how frustrating it can be! We were at our wits end but glad we soldiered through bc we really love our problem child despite his faults haha


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Wonderful update and your training _did_ pay off. As an adult, I still regularly apply what I learned in kindergarten to my everyday life, even if it didn’t seem to be sticking at the time.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Wonderful update and your training _did_ pay off. As an adult, I still regularly apply what I learned in kindergarten to my everyday life, even if it didn’t seem to be sticking at the time.


😆 thanks! Sometimes it doesn’t feel like we did much 🙈😁


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi, I know this is an old'ish thread, but with updates up to 7 months ago maybe it's new enough.

Our standard is soon 6 months, and have generally been OK when doing the walk. Lately he have suddenly started to jump and bite at our arm/jacket on the end of our walks.
He first started outside the door in the garden, but the last few days he have started a bit earlier 10min from home.
I keep a sausage in pieces with me on a walk, and most of the time he really want those, but when this happens he won't listen to what I say. Ignoring does not work, he will rip clothes. I have gotten him to sit down after a while though, but if I keep walking again to soon he will just start up doing the same. I sometimes have to make him sit for several minutes before moving. After walking 50-100 meter he will start jumping and biting again. It ends when we go inside, although he still want to nip at our fingers (and even face if we're holding him or something) when inside too. I'm not sure how to end this with positive reinforcement.

He will lay down and sleep on the floor all day when we're working (not home alone, yet...), and this mostly happens in the evenings. So I'm wondering if it's because he's bored? or tired after an hour of walking before getting home? Should I play more fetch at home, do some training before the walks?
I will try the tip about putting my foot on the leach and see if he stop, but I'm not sure how to solve this.

Edit; I should probably not answer my own post tho, but I came over this following reply/quote in another thread that fit the case well even when I'm not sure what do when this things happens. 


fjm said:


> At six months he is becoming an adolescent, with the hormonal and brain changes that go along with that - probably the most challenging period of raising a dog! You will need every ounce of patience and a sense of humour, but yes, it does get better.
> ...


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

north_putt said:


> Hi, I know this is an old'ish thread, but with updates up to 7 months ago maybe it's new enough.
> 
> Our standard is soon 6 months, and have generally been OK when doing the walk. Lately he have suddenly started to jump and bite at our arm/jacket on the end of our walks.
> He first started outside the door in the garden, but the last few days he have started a bit earlier 10min from home.
> ...


Hey there! I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Sounds exactly like our dog. It’s enormously frustrating! Our dog is now almost 2 years old and we’ve been through a lot with him. We’ve seen several trainers and a dog psychologist, vets, and other dog experts (day care workers and dog sitters) have weighed in. Probably other owners would have given up on him but we are committed even if it means changing a lot in our lives. Your dog probably isn’t as much of problem child as ours but we did get a lot of expert advice that maybe I can pass along!

Here’s what we’ve learned and some theories. Not all may apply to your dog but I hope it helps! 


Hormones are a factor. His jumpy-bitey as we call it seems to at least be due in part to hormonal changes. It started when he went through puberty… then it got better to the point it happened rarely. However, he was still highly reactive toward other dogs - out of excitement to greet them rather than fear per se (some dog people think all reactivity is fear but our dog psychologist didn’t think that was the case with him which is what we observed too - he just really wanted to be off leash and go say hi, like really really). Anyway our daycare was worried he was bugging the other dogs too much wanting to play and so they wanted him castrated. So we did the chip chemical castration this fall. And oh boy did the jumpy bitey return with a vengeance! So it’s definitely not helped by hormone surges. It has settled down a bit again 2 months post-chip. But we had a hell of a time. So this might be good news for your dog that it will pass as he matures. 
Jumpy-bitey is a state of over-arousal. Once your dog reaches that state it’s too late and very hard to get him to calm down. So for us playing made it worse, anything exciting made it worse. You need to get the dog focused and calm. One trainer suggested doing dog parkour but that just set him off. We just needed to practice calming training exercises all. The. Time. This meant that one walks we did/do “look at me” nearly constantly every walk for a year. 
Outside is too exciting - go home if he’s getting above threshold. Brain games and calming exercises helped inside - so puzzles and mat exercises. Our dog is super calm inside all day too - sleeps like a loaf. But outside the world is just too exciting and he gets overstimulated. He needed coping mechanisms. The “look at me” and trying to maintain his focus is what worked for us but sometimes there are too many triggers and now we know if he’s been triggered at all we need to go home immediately rather than allow him to get further amped up. 
The sitting thing you’re doing is good. We had to actually tie our dog to a tree once because he wouldn’t stop biting. It was a horrible experience. Like I said you can’t really bring them down below threshold quickly but sitting may cool him off for a while so you can get home. I would suggest keeping a look out for over-arousal signs and cut your walk short if you see it brewing. 

In a nutshell, it’s about managing the state of excitement of your dog and trying to give him training tools to be calm and focused. And! I’m not an expert but the evidence from our dog suggests hormonal changes make this worse. So you may we’ll see it get better on its own with time. When our dog was over a year old he was much much better. But we still needed to monitor his arousal and tell him “look” and “sit” so he was focused and calm on walks. 

Let me know if you have any other questions - good luck!


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

thanks for your fast reply, @Faust , even in such an old thread.
Seems like you tried a lot, I'm a bit worried if this is just the beginning 



Faust said:


> Hormones are a factor. His jumpy-bitey as we call it seems to at least be due in part to hormonal changes. It started when he went through puberty… then it got better to the point it happened rarely. However, he was still highly reactive toward other dogs - out of excitement to greet them rather than fear per se (some dog people think all reactivity is fear but our dog psychologist didn’t think that was the case with him which is what we observed too - he just really wanted to be off leash and go say hi, like really really).


He is also (happy, it seems?) excited towards other dogs, and have always been. I've tried calming, but he will ignore even my best treats if he's too close. I can sometimes manage it if I'm on the other side of the road. I try to make eye contact with him and make him focus on me/treats. He can jump towards them and wants to follow, but he will come and he usually doesn't bark at them so often but will end up coming with me.



Faust said:


> Jumpy-bitey is a state of over-arousal. Once your dog reaches that state it’s too late and very hard to get him to calm down. So for us playing made it worse, anything exciting made it worse. You need to get the dog focused and calm. One trainer suggested doing dog parkour but that just set him off. We just needed to practice calming training exercises all. The. Time. This meant that one walks we did/do “look at me” nearly constantly every walk for a year.


Does he walk heel and look at you all the time? No sniffing around? Our puppy class teachers said that could be done, and also training calming. We are training walking heel at walks sometimes, but last night it was like something clicked because he didn't react to the sausage when walking heel at the end and a minute later just became crazy jumping/biting instead. It was almost like he was tired of walking/working/training.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

north_putt said:


> It was almost like he was tired of walking/working/training.


He probably was.  And probably frustrated, too.

Does he get a chance to be a puppy on walks? Loose leash? Sniffing? And a chance to run around off leash like a silly poodle?

He’s still very much a kid. It’s possible you’re just expecting a little too much from him right now. At 6 months, our training sessions with Peggy were never more than a few minutes long, sometimes even just seconds. Even in classes, we would alternate rapidly between exercises and just rewarding her for calm. We never asked for more than a couple of repetitions of any one behaviour.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

north_putt said:


> thanks for your fast reply, @Faust , even in such an old thread.
> Seems like you tried a lot, I'm a bit worried if this is just the beginning
> 
> 
> ...


This sounds like our dog - happy excited, not growling or barking but squeaking and pulling toward the other dogs. We had to just avoid other dogs while on walks. For other distractions like children running, bikes, loud cars, etc. the “look at me” training worked wonders after doing it constantly for months. He was always un-motivated by food which made training hard. We’ve spent so much money to get extra fancy delicious treats because he just spits out the ones he doesn’t want or ignores them. I spent months with soggy meatballs in my pockets. Haha. For seeing dogs we have these specific really high value treats that are dried ox hearts so he only gets those when we see dogs and we say a special command word to “look” that we only use with dogs. So he knows that means something really good is coming and 9/10 now he will look for the special treat and ignore the other dog or at least not lunge or squeak at the other dog and instead take a treat. So special word, special treat for other dogs helped a lot.

We were more strict about making him heel and keep by our side a year + ago when we started the “look at me” training. He needed a constant stream of treats to do it for a whole walk. But then once he got good we relaxed a bit so he sniffs around. He doesn’t usually pull like he did when he was a puppy but we think he’s happier being able to sniff and stuff. I think there’s only so much focus they can give at a time outside. So I think you’re doing the right thing. One thing we noticed was that if he’s good for a while and following commands, he has a lot of pent up energy/naughtiness and when he’s released from the command he just kind of zooms. So that might be happening with your dog as well.

The other thing to pay attention to is your own body language. You need to keep calm even if you see him start to get excited. It’s really hard because it hurts when they bite even playfully. We cried a lot. But dogs definitely pick up on how you’re feeling in a given moment. I found that if I keep using a high “happy voice” rather than my angry “low voice” he is more reassured.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Faust's observations are very good.

I think with a reactive dog it might help to think of calm behavior as being like water in a bottle. During a walk you are taking little sips out of the bottle. Eventually the bottle will be empty. Sometimes the bottle empties faster: a passing bicycle might take large mouthful, and another dog might spill all the water at once.

On a recent walk I accidentally used up all my puppy Ritter's calmness by being too strict about him pulling on the leash. Halfway through the walk he threw himself to the ground and started shrieking at me. Then he started fighting the leash very hard. He was exactly like an angry overtired toddler having a meltdown. For the rest of the walk he had another screaming tantrum each time he saw something interesting. It was a very unpleasant walk for both of us. 

I usually try to ask my dog to perform a good behavior when I think the dog wants to do something bad. Sit down instead of jumping on the guest. Carry a toy instead of biting the leash. Look at me instead of looking at the squirrel. Walk at heel instead of biting my arm. However, choosing the wrong behavior will drain your dog's bottle of calmness much quicker. 

Choosing the wrong activity was the mistake I made with Ritter on the day of his tantrum. During the walk I asked him for too many tasks that required impulse control: too much sitting, too much looking at me, too much walking at heel, too much walking slowly while not pulling. Eventually he got tired and frustrated, and he quit on me. That day I should have taken him on a very short walk and then played with him at home. That day he needed activities that would burn off energy, like playing with a flirt pole. Instead I gave him a long slow walk, and he just couldn't handle it mentally.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Faust's observations are very good.
> 
> I think with a reactive dog it might help to think of calm behavior as being like water in a bottle. During a walk you are taking little sips out of the bottle. Eventually the bottle will be empty. Sometimes the bottle empties faster: a passing bicycle might take large mouthful, and another dog might spill all the water at once.
> 
> ...


This reminds me of our recent trip with Peggy. We were asking for non-stop good manners, non-stop impulse control. Because she’s a little older, she was doing well at first. But then suddenly we realized the “bottle” was empty. We tried to fill it back up with calm rest time, but even that wasn’t enough.

What filled it back up was a leash-free half hour in a park with minimal stimuli, just romping around, playing with a stick, being a poodle. For the rest of the trip, we made sure to carve out time for this type of relaxation, and it made a world of difference. Rather than being wired on walks, ready to explode, she was sniffing the ground, body loose. Such a beautiful sight.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I think with a reactive dog it might help to think of calm behavior as being like water in a bottle. During a walk you are taking little sips out of the bottle. Eventually the bottle will be empty. Sometimes the bottle empties faster: a passing bicycle might take large mouthful, and another dog might spill all the water at once.


I love this analogy!


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

Thanks everyone for your replies.



PeggyTheParti said:


> He probably was.  And probably frustrated, too.
> 
> Does he get a chance to be a puppy on walks? Loose leash? Sniffing? And a chance to run around off leash like a silly poodle?
> 
> He’s still very much a kid. It’s possible you’re just expecting a little too much from him right now. At 6 months, our training sessions with Peggy were never more than a few minutes long, sometimes even just seconds. Even in classes, we would alternate rapidly between exercises and just rewarding her for calm. We never asked for more than a couple of repetitions of any one behaviour.


Yeah, I think you're right. He's trying his best actually, but sometimes it's overwhelming for him or something.
He get time to sniff and play around, but the last time I was focusing on not pulling the leash a lot so maybe he got frustrated after 45min of play, heel walk across the roads/passing people, some contact training outside a shop and playing in the snow on the walk. I had the impression that it should make him more calm and tired after walk? Stimulate body and brain.



Faust said:


> The other thing to pay attention to is your own body language. You need to keep calm even if you see him start to get excited. It’s really hard because it hurts when they bite even playfully.


I agree it's hard sometimes, and I don't know what to do. It seems like it's just a waiting game until he calms down or going inside that helps (a little bit hard sometimes when we have 10min of walking left).



cowpony said:


> Choosing the wrong activity was the mistake I made with Ritter on the day of his tantrum. During the walk I asked him for too many tasks that required impulse control: too much sitting, too much looking at me, too much walking at heel, too much walking slowly while not pulling. Eventually he got tired and frustrated, and he quit on me. That day I should have taken him on a very short walk and then played with him at home. That day he needed activities that would burn off energy, like playing with a flirt pole. Instead I gave him a long slow walk, and he just couldn't handle it mentally.


I think it is very hard to figure out what kind of walk or activity that is right at the correct time, and how to know when it's too much. Is it even possible to do too much? Our trainer told us to stimulate the brain as much as going on a walk, so I always try my best to do that. For example, they said focusing to do a task (like heel walk) takes so much energy on him that he gets tired mentally. Shouldn't that help instead of making it worse? It do looks like a tantrum like you say, so I hope it's just a phase.

Example from today:
He had a walk during lunch time, and one after work. No problem walking in a short leash then.
He ate dinner and laid down to sleep by himself. After an hour he was a bit restless, so after playing and some commands/training I took him out for a walk to the play ground. It takes 5 min of walking, and he behaved well until getting to the playground, I put him in a long leech. He started to jump and bite immediately. I think I had to hold him and ask him with a calm voice to calm down for 5-8min before he stopped biting after my arms and was just standing there looking around (for noises, nature, whatever). He ran around in a long leach a few minutes before he came back to me and started jumping/biting again. This continued for a while. I gave up, put on his short leash and we walked towards home. As soon as he left the playground he behaved like a normal dog. He was a bit nippy when coming home, but I asked him calmly to go to his dog bed and calmly petted him. When I left he went to a more cool place to sleep, where he still is.

Maybe I'm just overreacting and thinking too much? He is full of hormones and can't handle it?
Is this normal behaviour for all of you at some stage?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

north_putt said:


> Yeah, I think you're right. He's trying his best actually, but sometimes it's overwhelming for him or something.
> He get time to sniff and play around, but the last time I was focusing on not pulling the leash a lot so maybe he got frustrated after 45min of play, heel walk across the roads/passing people, some contact training outside a shop and playing in the snow on the walk. I had the impression that it should make him more calm and tired after walk? Stimulate body and brain.


In my experience, there is a period where that physical and mental exercise calms them down, yes. But if you keep going, they get overtired, overstimulated, amped up, and lose their impulse control, and it’s much harder to get them to settle.

Try to end on a good note. If he can only handle 30 minutes right now, keep your sessions to 30 minutes.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

north_putt said:


> Example from today:
> He had a walk during lunch time, and one after work. No problem walking in a short leash then.
> He ate dinner and laid down to sleep by himself. After an hour he was a bit restless, so after playing and some commands/training I took him out for a walk to the play ground. It takes 5 min of walking, and he behaved well until getting to the playground, I put him in a long leech. He started to jump and bite immediately. I think I had to hold him and ask him with a calm voice to calm down for 5-8min before he stopped biting after my arms and was just standing there looking around (for noises, nature, whatever). He ran around in a long leach a few minutes before he came back to me and started jumping/biting again. This continued for a while. I gave up, put on his short leash and we walked towards home. As soon as he left the playground he behaved like a normal dog. He was a bit nippy when coming home, but I asked him calmly to go to his dog bed and calmly petted him. When I left he went to a more cool place to sleep, where he still is.


Evening is “the witching hour” for puppies. They often need much less activity at this time than they might think. A short training session and then a little run outside to jostle out a pee and poop was more than enough for Peggy. And then if she still was restless, she went into her pen with a chew to settle. Without fail, she fell fast asleep.

Then it was out for another short potty right before bed, keeping the lights dim and the energy low.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It really concerns me that I am seeing so many issues with hyper standard poodles. I used to raise standards (1970s, 1980s) and never had any that were like that. My dogs had a lot of Wycliffe breeding and some Bel Tor. They were sweet and calm. That said, I probably raised them to be well-behaved since I was a middle school teacher!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Johanna said:


> It really concerns me that I am seeing so many issues with hyper standard poodles. I used to raise standards (1970s, 1980s) and never had any that were like that. My dogs had a lot of Wycliffe breeding and some Bel Tor. They were sweet and calm. That said, I probably raised them to be well-behaved since I was a middle school teacher!


We do also see a lot of people coming here to ask for help with their normal adolescents. Very hard to assess the actual behaviour without seeing it, but it rarely sounds like true hyperactivity to me.

6-month-old puppies of any breed need enforced naps, but there was a popular TV dog trainer who never mentioned this. Instead he focused on _more more more_ exercise. Not saying that’s the case here, but I suspect his influence has resulted in some very overtired, very cranky puppies. 

I’d never have known how much rest Peggy needed if it weren’t for our trainer and the wonderful peeps of Poodle Forum.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

north_putt said:


> I think it is very hard to figure out what kind of walk or activity that is right at the correct time, and how to know when it's too much. Is it even possible to do too much? Our trainer told us to stimulate the brain as much as going on a walk, so I always try my best to do that. For example, they said focusing to do a task (like heel walk) takes so much energy on him that he gets tired mentally. Shouldn't that help instead of making it worse? It do looks like a tantrum like you say, so I hope it's just a phase.


Every dog is different, even the same dog is different at different times, and none of them came with owners manuals. You're right. It's hard. 

Something I've noticed with my guys is that some trainers understand poodle mentality, and some trainers do not. My guys love to work, but they don't love to be nagged, and they don't love repetitive drills. Everything I do with them needs to be presented as a game, not a lesson. Ritter's puppy kindergarten trainer was very careful to give him lots of different tasks to keep him engaged. In contrast, Galen's puppy instructor did a lot of repetitive drilling. Galen got bored very quickly.

On walks I do indeed practice different tasks: walking at heel, sitting, etc. However, I try to stop while the dog still thinks it's fun. When Galen was an adolescent he went through a period where he just didn't want to play training games. Before this period I could ask him to sit every 30 meters for the entire walk, and he was happy to do it. When he turned into a bratty teenager he didn't want to sit at all. For about two months I eased up on his training. I didn't stop, but I was careful to choose my battles. For example, I still insisted he sit when we got to each cross street, but I didn't make him sit at other times. Eventually he showed interest in training again: he was quicker to follow instructions, he maintained eye contact, he wagged his tail when he saw me pulling out the training clicker. That interest told me he was ready to start working again.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Johanna said:


> It really concerns me that I am seeing so many issues with hyper standard poodles. I used to raise standards (1970s, 1980s) and never had any that were like that. My dogs had a lot of Wycliffe breeding and some Bel Tor. They were sweet and calm. That said, I probably raised them to be well-behaved since I was a middle school teacher!


I expect, due to your experience with both dogs and kids, you probably nipped a lot of problems in the bud without consciously thinking about it. I'm sure you could tell the difference between a dog that needed to work the wiggles out and a dog that needed to go lie down for a while. I think a lot of people now don't have much experience with dogs, plus they don't have as much free time to work with the dogs.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Yep, Cowpony, a poodle will really get frustrated if asked to repeat something over and over. I think you really have a handle on the best way to work with Galen.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

north_putt said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I’m definitely not the poodle expert some of the others on here are but this sounds like something my dog would do. It sounds like the idea of playing in the play ground was too much and just got him over-excited. We have that sometimes when we take our dog to the dog park. We’ll kick a ball for him for an hour and then when we pick up the leash to leave he does jumpy-bitey.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Every dog is different, even the same dog is different at different times, and none of them came with owners manuals. You're right. It's hard.
> 
> Something I've noticed with my guys is that some trainers understand poodle mentality, and some trainers do not. My guys love to work, but they don't love to be nagged, and they don't love repetitive drills. Everything I do with them needs to be presented as a game, not a lesson. Ritter's puppy kindergarten trainer was very careful to give him lots of different tasks to keep him engaged. In contrast, Galen's puppy instructor did a lot of repetitive drilling. Galen got bored very quickly.
> 
> On walks I do indeed practice different tasks: walking at heel, sitting, etc. However, I try to stop while the dog still thinks it's fun. When Galen was an adolescent he went through a period where he just didn't want to play training games. Before this period I could ask him to sit every 30 meters for the entire walk, and he was happy to do it. When he turned into a bratty teenager he didn't want to sit at all. For about two months I eased up on his training. I didn't stop, but I was careful to choose my battles. For example, I still insisted he sit when we got to each cross street, but I didn't make him sit at other times. Eventually he showed interest in training again: he was quicker to follow instructions, he maintained eye contact, he wagged his tail when he saw me pulling out the training clicker. That interest told me he was ready to start working again.


This is so true regarding trainers —we saw so many people and there’s such a difference with the people who knew poodles. The others were befuddled our dog didn’t react to their methods as they expected.


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

He can always sniff and do puppy stuff on our walks, so it's not that he cannot do the things he like either.

A little update a week later: He still jumped up and were biting like before 3 days in a row after I made the post.
Last weekend he was running around outside freely for a while, but started acted like this after we put on the leash walking towards the car. Another day I also went to the park in the evening thinking he could run around a little, but he started as soon as I tried taking off the leash to put on a long line. He even managed to rip some holes in my jacket arm. I was very frustrated and hold him calmly until he stopped. I then attached the short leash and we walked back home.
Except for this time he haven't done it any more on our walks, at least not for the past week. I also tried walking an hour earlier in the evening to not mix "the witching hour" into this as @PeggyTheParti mentioned.
So we'll see if it was just a phase, if it will come back or if he understand he cannot behave like that and stopped voluntarily 😂

Thanks for all your suggestions!


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

He's back to jumping and biting now/the last days, even worse than before (he won't quit until we're inside). So I don't know..


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I may have missed it, but how much time a day is spent in mental activity like trick training, where he isn't necessarily "active" but is very engaged, how much time is spent in energetic activity like running, medium energy activity like walking, and how much time sleeping? 
Does he have free rein in the house all the time, or restricted to an area or ex-pen or crate when not actively engaged with his people? Does he "settle" on his own or by direction?


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

He have free rein, and settle on his own. This problem occurs at any time of the day, as soon as he step outside. It's not only in the evening walk any more, it's like a 50/50 chance it happens when he step outside no matter when. And almost every time he goes for a walk. It can happen in the beginning of the walk (when we step outside), or in the middle or in the end. It can happen when we just take him out to pee, morning or evening. I have tried playing, sniffing games or other things before we go out and it does not help (at that time).
It have become more frequent, and often in the beginning. I can solve it with going inside as soon as it starts when he go outside, and do that 3-4 times until he stops and behave normally. But handling this is quite difficult when it happen minutes after this.
It have become a really hard situation for us, and makes it difficult to even go outside.


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## Faust (Nov 2, 2020)

north_putt said:


> He have free rein, and settle on his own. This problem occurs at any time of the day, as soon as he step outside. It's not only in the evening walk any more, it's like a 50/50 chance it happens when he step outside no matter when. And almost every time he goes for a walk. It can happen in the beginning of the walk (when we step outside), or in the middle or in the end. It can happen when we just take him out to pee, morning or evening. I have tried playing, sniffing games or other things before we go out and it does not help (at that time).
> It have become more frequent, and often in the beginning. I can solve it with going inside as soon as it starts when he go outside, and do that 3-4 times until he stops and behave normally. But handling this is quite difficult when it happen minutes after this.
> It have become a really hard situation for us, and makes it difficult to even go outside.


Just wanted to say I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. I’ve been there for sure and I’ve given you all my thoughts and tips already so sorry can’t be more help! It gets better with time and maturity but I know that might be little comfort. Hang in there! Our dog just turned 2 and only now he’s able to self-soothe himself down from an excited state rather than go into jumpy bitey mode. It’s been a long 2 years haha


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Have you tried asking him to carry a toy when you go on a walk? I found that helped a lot with my old dog, Pogo, and also with puppy Galen. Sometimes outside was just too stimulating, and they needed some kind of outlet for the excitement. Pogo would shake his toy when he was too excited. Galen drops the toy in an invitation to play.


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

@Faust Well, this is not sustainable for very long. People can't take him for a walk like this 

@cowpony I tried to carry a toy out today after work when he went out to pee, but it seems to give him more energy and then he throw it away and jumped after our arm/legs/leash instead.

Today:
This morning he went out to pee, no problem. He slept to 10am, went out to pee/poo. Slept to noon, and were suppose to get a long walk. After walking out and down to the road he started again, so dog walker had to go inside with him.
He slept/played some until I came home from work, took him out to pee and with a toy. He did the same. Later he got food, we played some with his toys. Did some clicker training. Ate dinner, he slept. I went out for a long walk in the afternoon. Met some people on the street, and he sat down by his own initiative, waited and got his favourite snack doing so while I talked.
No problem walking and sniffing for about 35 minutes before he began jumping/biting again. I tried to hold him to calm him down, asked him to sit or walk foot. Not very happy about it, but he stopped for a few minutes and we walked further. Now he would do the same more and more often (4-8 times) until I was about 10min from home. Here he didn't stop no matter what. I tried to hold him calmly, but it didn't matter. I think I used 15-20 min just waiting on the sidewalk. In the end I had to calmly carry him a block down the road, and when I put him down he walked normally the last 10-15 min home like nothing have happened. I even stopped to untangle his leash between his feet at one point, without him caring about my arms and leash untangling and lifting his paw. 
I cannot believe how he can be so normal in the beginning and in the end, but then become so hard to manage at one point. He's 20kg/44lbs now, nobody else can start to carry him around to solve it...


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

north_putt said:


> Well, this is not sustainable for very long. People can't take him for a walk like this


He’s not even 6 months old, correct? I would stop walking him entirely for a few weeks. Walking (especially in populated areas, with minimal freedom) is stressful for a lot of dogs and maybe he needs a bit of a reset. At the very least, he needs to stop rehearsing this behavior.

You mentioned above that he was good on a walk until the 35-minute mark. To be honest, I don’t think we _ever_ walked puppy Peggy for that long unless she was on a long loose leash in an area with very little stimuli (except for interesting things to sniff).

I think you’re asking a lot of your little guy. I know he looks big, but he’s still just the poodle equivalent of a little kid: He gets frustrated easily and has minimal impulse control. He has a lot of energy to burn, but he gets overtired quickly. He wants to play! play! play! not march along at a human’s boring pace.

I know it’s exhausting trying to find the right balance, but I’m confident your patience will pay off. You’re not alone navigating poodle adolescence. We’ve all been through it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thoughts sparked by PTP's post:
Overstimulated
Over adrenalized

Removing the stimuli for a time sounds like a great idea to try, a reset time, allow those cortisol levels to stabilize.

When you start again here's some guidelines
Exercise Guidelines for Puppies (By Puppy Culture) – Inugami – Finnish Spitz

Why
APPROPRIATE EXERCISE – PUPPY CULTURE (shoppuppyculture.com) 

As a side note, standard poodles, body and mind, are still growing and maturing til around 18-24m for body and 3y for mind. 

This puppy raising is a marathon, not a sprint .


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

north_putt said:


> @Faust Well, this is not sustainable for very long. People can't take him for a walk like this
> 
> @cowpony I tried to carry a toy out today after work when he went out to pee, but it seems to give him more energy and then he throw it away and jumped after our arm/legs/leash instead.
> 
> ...


I too think he's telling you, in the only way he knows how, that he has had more than enough. You are being too good to him.
I have a 17 week old spoo pup that jumped and nips hard when he is over stimulated. Matteo is then put in his x-pen with his large IKEA elephant and he drops to the floor immediately and goes to sleep. He seems relieved when we make the decision for him.
We go for 15 -25 minute on leash walks. We stop before he gets overtired. When we take him to the park or forest, then he is off leash and the walk is about 45 minutes.


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

Thanks for your tips. 

@PeggyTheParti He is soon to be 7 months now. What should we do instead of walking?
The thing is that it happens when he's running around freely too. Once it started in the beginning when I tried to unleash him, so we just walked home (a few minutes walk). Another time he can run around for 20-30min before he starts to focus on us/me, last time it happened in the dog park (we were alone, I were playing fetch and let him roam free). 
Some people suggested to "time him out" and walk more, so because he didn't get a walk at noon that is what I did last night.

@Rose n Poos Thanks, I will have a look at the links. I agree he seems overstimulated when it happens. I'm just not sure if I correct it properly. Should I keep holding him until he relaxes?

@Minie I just don't know when to stop before he gets overtired, because some times it happens in the beginning and he haven't even been out that day and I cannot see any sign before it happens. When it happens I'm outside somewhere, so I don't know how to stop it really. At home I can leave the room, or leave him. And it also happens off leash as well, but we normally just do walks in the neighbourhood.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I try to avoid my pup getting overtired so I try to stop while things are going well. Just as I have done with my kids when they were small. It's not easy and I don't always get it right. I try to notice small details such as him no longer curious and interested during the walk, or he starts to badger our other dog, Luca. That is when we turn around and head home. If he is too rowdy I put him in his pen and he usually drops to the floor from exhaustion.
When Matteo jumps and nips when we walk, I turn my back and freeze. It hurts alot in the beginning but when he realised there was absolutely no response he stopped. If I said ow or squealed he thought it was a great game and it got worse. So Matteo gets the silent treatment and he hates it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This may not be an easy ask, but could you have someone video this behavior and post it here? It might help seeing this yourself "second hand", when you're not actually in that moment.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Yes, definitely sounds like too long of a walk. When Annie was that age we went for 3-4 walks per day (apartment dwellers), but it was fairly rare for any one walk to be over 30 min, most were about 15 min. And then she got absolutely wild and crazy if she didn't run off leash 1-2 times per week, preferably more. 

With over stimulation, the trick is to not let the dog get that tired. It's kinda like trying to reason with a toddler in the middle of a temper tantrum. Good luck. They aren't really capable of learning in that state, or self control. . Better to try to arrange naps so they dont reach the tantrum stage. 

I also like self control work - we did a lot of work with sit stay at that age to keep Annie from jumping up and nipping me while we played ball. Relax on a Mat is another great one, as is Look at That, and Its Yer Choice - all have great references if you google them.


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

Thanks. I'm trying everything that is suggested. Many people just tell me to "tire him out", and I'm not sure what is a normal size walk at this age, so every advice is contradicting. He's very active, and walking for 30-60min seems like no problem (except when this happens?).
The last two days I've been taking him out for just a 20-30min evening walk, but that does not stop him in doing the same thing. The first day I walked for 2 min down the road when he started, fine after this. Yesterday he started after maybe 5-6min, and then when we came back to almost the same spot (we just passed it): he was walking normally in front of me -- turned around very quickly and just jumped towards me and trying to get my gloves / jump up on me. It was just like someone pressed a button. It does not seems like it have anything to do with tireness either.
He did the same today around noon, so right now I just hope he will stop doing it at one point when we break the pattern or something by just stopping him. Not that we've tried that the past two months though.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I'll add my 2¢.
I've learned that with Elroy, I (the human) need to be VERY PATIENT. When he jumps, STOP the walk, tell him "no jump" or "no bites" or "off", then stand very still and wait until he becomes disinterested in you. Don't repeat the command, don't yell at him, don't say anything. At first it takes quite a while, maybe 5 minutes, maybe 15 minutes, maybe more. Just hold firm staying still and NOT LOOKING AT HIM, and not saying anything. As soon as he looses interest and walks away (a step or so, towards anything besides you), praise and restart the walk. When he jumps again, same thing. Stop, stand still, look into space, and wait. It may still take a while, but it's usually much quicker the second time, and even quicker after that. Repeat until he stops jumping up.
You can't expect to succeed if you're doing these walks when you are in a hurry, so make sure you're able to commit some training time when you go for walks. Good luck!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

north_putt said:


> Many people just tell me to "tire him out",


Have any of those people been from PF?


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## north_putt (Dec 27, 2020)

No, not at all. I have got excellent advice from PF. Thank you 

Well, it seems like the day(s) of my last reply was the end (and the worst) of the jumping period. He's now pretty much back to normal again, no jumping on walks.

This is what we have continued to do since this started, and are still doing:

If he started to jump right when we walked out, we turned around and walked inside. Waited, walked out again and walked back in if he jumped up. He stopped after 1-2 times when we did that. He's clearly just excited to go out for a walk, so going back inside when it happens is not very fun.
As several in here mentioned we tried shortening down the length of the day-to-day leash walks. Mostly down to about 15-25 minutes. He have been for a few much longer walks, but generally the other ones are shorter. He's physically tired on the long walks, but many/most of them have been without leash and he have not jumped up after being tired either.
He sometimes start to run around in circles (zoomies) or try to jump, but he now stops attempting to jump when we say no/uh-uh (he didn't care before). He is allowed to run around all he wants (it just lasts a few seconds anyway), but no jumping on us. I also see that he sometimes want to run towards us and jump/pull, but then clearly chooses not to and turn around. As if he remembers he is not allowed. This behaviour have also been reduced.
Because he now actually stops when we say no or uh-uh, we also turn our back around and ignore him until he become relaxed we can walk home. This happened mostly in the period after my last reply, as he haven't really done it at all the last week+ or so. Before this he didn't stop after we ignored him, so we had to hold him calmly until he relaxed enough for us to walk home.
Since this started I have temporarily stopped caring about him walking and pulling on leash walks, so I haven't walked with a treat ready when he's pulling or walking nicely. Mainly because I don't wan't him to be tired of always focusing on walking nicely, if this could have been a trigger for all I know. His walking have become worse in the terms of pulling the leash, but my focus latly have been on just being able to walk at all on a daily basis, not pulling. It's not a big deal and we can focus on this later. He is actually not that bad, he just want to sniff around.
So until now this is mostly the combinations of things we had to do in our environment to reduce this happening on walks. At the same time it also stopped snowing and a big warm windy storm from the caribbean (gulf stream) removed all our snow and ice, so he don't have any more snow to play with any more. Mittens have been less frequently used, and I try not to wave them around to gain focus on it. He is very excited and love jumping and playing in the snow on our walks, so for all I know this could also have something to do with it. He have now turned 7 months old, and I hope it was a period he's over with.
Thanks for all your tips, and I hope this will come in handy for anyone else.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Sounds like great progress! I've learned that Ignoring pulling is like training (encouraging/rewarding) pulling so you may want to rethink this strategy. Whenever Elroy pulls on leash, forward progress ceases until he loosens his leash and gives me eye contact. Most times when he gives eye contact, he will easily comes back to a heel position. Then we start forward movement again. Initially he stood firm with his tight leash for (sometimes) minutes, lately its seconds. He's not perfect, but I'd say he's 90% loose leash now (at least until he gets distracted by another dog (or?!) walking by! Still working on that!😁).


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I am so glad there is progress. I often do as Tom does to avoid pulling. If Matteo does not come back to a heel, then I change strategies. I then turn 180 degrees and walk a few steps in the opposite direction and when he has caught up with me, then I turn 180 degrees again and continue to walk in the first direction. Sometimes I have to do it several times. Matteo is the focused on keeping up with me and my unpredictable turns that he forgets to pull.
Good luck


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