# How do YOU feed Raw and How to start



## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

The more I keep reading about the different dog foods, the more the raw diet intrigues me. I would like to switch my little toy to Innova when it is time to switch to adult food. However, my vet doesn't sell it anymore. I can likely find it elsewhere, but wonder how long anyone will carry any particular brand. I'm not opposed to switching from time to time, but I want a quality food.

This is where a raw diet comes in.... I could control her diet (which could be worse if I do it wrong). In the long run, would you say it costs more/less than buying a quality kibble? Do you give raw/meaty bones? If so, what would you suggest for a toy poodle. It scares me to think she could choke although I have heard that this is only a concern when bones are cooked.

I have seen several sites suggest cooking the meat and several that suggest against it since it cooks the nutrients out and is less natural. Has anyone had any problems with salmonella or worms? To help with prep time, do you tend to make a big batch and freeze extras? I've heard pumpkin will help a dog make the switch since it will help keep the stool firm (hopefully).

I guess there are so many questions and so many variations on what a well rounded raw diet can be. If you have a book you would like to recommend, please let me know.

It sounds like there are so many people on here that are big proponents of feeding raw. I would like to know how you do it for your dog(s).


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't really know that much about it, as my mom is the one who preps it all for our PWDs. But I do know day to day she just feeds meat/ veg from the fridge. If she's going away for any length of time, she grinds up meat and veg in a big batch and then freezes portions for me to defrost. So you can do it either way.

She learned a lot by becoming a member of this Yahoo Group: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawpaws/


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

First off I'd like to recommend you read the book Raw Meaty Bones.
It's free on the internet at:http://www.rawmeatybones.com/book.php
That will answer all your questions 


I could control her diet (which could be worse if I do it wrong). 
There is a possibility, depending on what kind of raw food you feed...if you decide to go with raw meaty bones or prepackaged raw food - 
Some prepackaged stuff is not what they call "complete" meals... which means it doesn't have all the vitamins etc. that dog food has on it. Which could cause some problems in very active dogs.

In the long run, would you say it costs more/less than buying a quality kibble? 
Yes, for a toy dog it actually works out pretty much the same than buying dog food.
Do you give raw/meaty bones? It is recommended that you give raw meaty bones as the chewing action they do to clean the meat off the bones also "brushes" their teeth... which is why most people switch to raw.... less dental problems.

If so, what would you suggest for a toy poodle. It scares me to think she could choke although I have heard that this is only a concern when bones are cooked.
I started Ponki on raw chicken.... I started out by replacing one meal with a raw chicken drumstick. She soon didn't care for the kibble anymore and at first it's scary cause they literally consume it bone and all in a matter of minutes. They can throw up bone... this is normal... it's just their body's way of dealing with pieces too big to be digested. Raw bones can not splinter in their guts... that's why you should never cook them. Chicken bones, pork ribs or smaller animal bones (rabbit, mice etc.) is usually recommended for smaller dogs as these are considered "soft" bones and will not damage teeth when they chew on it. I don't like giving marrow bones and when I do I make sure it has quite a bit of flesh on it so teeth don't crack or damage when the dog chews on it. (especially larger breeds may try to crack marrow bones to get to the marrow - NOT GOOD)

I have seen several sites suggest cooking the meat and several that suggest against it since it cooks the nutrients out and is less natural.
If you are going to switch to raw.... don't cook the meat! This can cause diarrhea.
Has anyone had any problems with salmonella or worms? 
I've had Ponki on raw now for 3 years.... and I've never had a problem with either. Off course keep in mind that you are working with raw meat... you need to be very careful of where you feed them and extra caution needs to be taken if you have kids around.... and sanitize bowls after every meal.
As far as the worm are concerned.... buy human quality or prepackaged meat. Also if you have them on a heartworm preventative that already takes care of half of your problems as some heartworm meds also kills other kinds of worms. If you are very concerned about worms you can always do a regular stool check with your vet. I've never had problems with worms. 
To help with prep time, do you tend to make a big batch and freeze extras? Yes, you can freeze a big batch and thaw as needed... thawing meat out kinda becomes a habit after a while.
I've heard pumpkin will help a dog make the switch since it will help keep the stool firm (hopefully). I've never heard this ?!?!?!?!
But pumpkin can help if you experience diarrhea/constipation while you switch as this is usually good to use to control a dog's bowels regardless of whether you switch or not.

It really is not as big a deal as some people make it out to be.... I do have to say it's a bit more work than just scooping kibble. But if you feel about your dog the way I do, it's no hassle.


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

There are a couple different methods when entering the 'raw' world the three that I am most familiar with are 

Prey model, which works out to be 80% mucsle meat(heart going in this catagory) 10% bone 10% organ meat with 60-80% of that being liver. 

BARF which includes veggies and a combination of everything above, usually also includes supplements.

pre made raw food which are usually ground up and frozen then cut into disks which are super easy to feed however I have not found one that does NOT stink before it goes down the trap.

When feeding any method where much of the meal is ground up it is important to let your dog chew on a RMB for at least 10minutes to get their gut juices flowing. aswell as the dental benefits. 

The goal is complete nutrition over time, not at every meal. I feed the prey model and i feed 9 days of bones and muscle then one day of organ meat with a probiotic or yogurt (to prevent the runs that can follow) also the day after organ day can produce 'tarry' stool from the liver-dont panic!

With a small dog I would start with chicken wings, necks and feet for the chewing, so they learn how to chew(like little kids they need to learn to chew their food properly of else the get stomach upset or choke) in the first month i would limit the protien source that you feed your dog to chicken and turkey, then 2-6 months try to feed EVERYTHING you EVER plan to feed them if you can. this prevents picky eaters later in life (I have one now and because he's just gotten worse and organs are not being consumed i've had to supplement kibble-jerk!)


So basically meat that you can use-anything that is human grade and is an animal including fish/fishbones/fishorgans. My youngest loves 'fish day' with fish heads 

When I first started I jumped in the pool with my clothes on. I made mistakes along the way but my dogs didnt suffer from it, they are healthy as could be! And I wouldn't change it for the world.

As far as price I lucked out and my Pops is a butcher, but he has people that come by his shop and he gives a BIG deal on food intending for dogs/cats. My food bill would be about $120(canadian) if I fed only kibble(feeding orijen) plus yearly dentals that woudl be needed but I spent $45CND the month I was away with them and didnt have access to the shop.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I hunt, so getting rabbit meat wouldn't be a problem. But my question is - could I give my dogs the rabbit meat I get? I would skin it, since those things are COVERED in fleas, but what's the say on wild meat? It doesn't have any hormones whatsoever, but it's also not health tested either (obviously)

I've heard that humans can starve on a pure rabbit died alone since it lacks so much nutrition lol


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> I have seen several sites suggest cooking the meat and several that suggest against it since it cooks the nutrients out and is less natural.
> If you are going to switch to raw.... don't cook the meat! This can cause diarrhea.
> Has anyone had any problems with salmonella or worms?
> I've had Ponki on raw now for 3 years.... and I've never had a problem with either. Off course keep in mind that you are working with raw meat... you need to be very careful of where you feed them and extra caution needs to be taken if you have kids around.... and sanitize bowls after every meal.
> As far as the worm are concerned.... buy human quality or prepackaged meat. Also if you have them on a heartworm preventative that already takes care of half of your problems as some heartworm meds also kills other kinds of worms. If you are very concerned about worms you can always do a regular stool check with your vet. I've never had problems with worms.


Ponki - great reply and very thorough! I also find the raw diet to be very intriguing, tho I know that I would never switch Snoops to it. Just not my thing... I do however cook him chicken as a treat every now and again and shred it up and mix it with his kibble. We haven't experienced diarrhea, but perhaps that's because we are mixing it. Each pup is different, right?!

As for the worms - Snoops recently had a bout with tapeworm. I had written that he is on monthly Interceptor (not knowing that it doesn't cover tapeworm... d'oh!). Just as a reminder for myself and anyone else out there ... Interceptor prevents heartworm disease, controls adult hookworm, and removes and controls adult roundworm and whipworm infections in dogs and puppies.

Good luck BFF with Zulee and the possible switch to raw! :eat:


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I hunt, so getting rabbit meat wouldn't be a problem. But my question is - could I give my dogs the rabbit meat I get? I would skin it, since those things are COVERED in fleas, but what's the say on wild meat? It doesn't have any hormones whatsoever, but it's also not health tested either (obviously)
> 
> I've heard that humans can starve on a pure rabbit died alone since it lacks so much nutrition lol


You bet you can! With wild game meat I usually freeze the meat for a few months to deal with the parasites. Then feed them the rabbit whole(depending on the size of your dog obviously ) I skin and behead when I get rabbit it really bothers me watching them eat thumper. 

Rabbit is very healthy for dogs! rabbit is high in protien, B12, Niacin, Iron and Selenium. dogs process food differently than we do so something that would be lacking for us could be the opposite for them. I read somewhere that rabbit is high in cholesterol, but I'm not sure if thats wild vs farm rabbits or good or bad cholesterol.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Thanks everyone for such wonderful resources and personal accounts. This will really help me figure out how to go about this. I know if I start feeding her raw, it will be very difficult to start feeding kibble again.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I hunt, so getting rabbit meat wouldn't be a problem. But my question is - could I give my dogs the rabbit meat I get? I would skin it, since those things are COVERED in fleas, but what's the say on wild meat? It doesn't have any hormones whatsoever, but it's also not health tested either (obviously)
> 
> I've heard that humans can starve on a pure rabbit died alone since it lacks so much nutrition lol



_My husband and I both hunt. Our dogs get bear, deer, and moose meat when available. I have not had any problem with it and it doesn't cost us anything but our time to get the game._


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

spoospirit, You say it doesn't cost you anything except your time to get the game, but oh what fun you're having during your hunt. Thats great, having fun hunting and also being able to feed your beloved fur babies for free. Also great that you and your husband enjoy the same types of sports, doing things together is always nice. We also like to fish and hunt. Do you hunt rifle or archery? Do you have any picture you would like to share, especially of bear or moose.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

SpooSpirit that is pretty awesome that you hunt together. It would be neat to see some pictures. Do you ever take the dogs with you?


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

I too meant to ask that question. If you take your dogs with you when you go hunting.


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## Evik (Sep 2, 2009)

I also wanted to thanks to all for great info. I don't have a puppy yet, but I'm determined to do everything the best for her and the raw food sounds very good. 
I have a question. When they eat raw chicken, is there a possibility of salmonella transmission from them when they give kisses?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I do have photos but they are on my other drive. I'll have to get them and start another thread with them. Since we hunt large game, the dogs cannot come with us much to their chagrin! The GRD has a complete meltdown when we leave her in the garage to go hunting. Poor thing.

They get to go fishing with us and horseback riding too so we make up for it. They are the recipients of many fresh fish that aren't too bony. Taffy will catch her own if I don't watch her. BTW, we just discovered that my large Koy is missing from the little, decorative pond. Me suspects a thief in the house by the name of Taffy!! He must have been 10 - 12" long!

I would like to train Taffy on birds but need a mentor. I hunted land birds when I was in my early 20's.
_


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Evik said:


> I also wanted to thanks to all for great info. I don't have a puppy yet, but I'm determined to do everything the best for her and the raw food sounds very good.
> I have a question. When they eat raw chicken, is there a possibility of salmonella transmission from them when they give kisses?


I guess there could be. We always wipe our dogs faces with a wet paper towel just after they have finished eating to get any excess meat juice off.


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

spoospirit,

Oh I'm sorry about your Koi, but have to admit it's kinda' funny too, I can just picture Taffy fishing in your koi pond, thinking to herself, look Mom what I caught. We also have a pond with koi in it. We have 6 koi about 12" to 14" and about 5 lg. gold fish. Our pond isn't really large enough for that many fish of this size, so are either going to add more ponds or get rid of some of the fish, hopefully not the same way that you got rid of yours though. LOL. Our dogs have never eaten raw fish, they will sometimes watch the koi and will even try to drink from the pond, which I stop them from doing this because I know that it is not good for them, but they have never acted as if they wanted to go after the fish. We have had sandhill cranes come right up to our pond, which is only about 4 ft. from our back door and snatch fish right out of the pond. We ended up having to put a net over the pond to stop the cranes from doing this. Anxiously waiting to see some of your hunting pics.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

*Only had my last hunt on the drive*

_MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME!!

Here are some pics from the last successful hunt I had. In the close-up it is pretty obvious that I was still quite sick back when I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia. I look a lot better than that now. 

I also include some snowshoeing photos of my husband and I with Brandy. Hope to get out and do that this year with the spoos too!


_


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

Oh WOW!!
I know that people do,but HOW can you kill something that is alive and looking at you?
Do you ever feel any guilt?
I feel guilty when I kill a mosquito.
I am not trying to make any statement here,pro or anti.
I eat meat,but I guess I just like to have it murdered for me...LOL.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

spoofan said:


> Oh WOW!!
> I know that people do,but HOW can you kill something that is alive and looking at you?
> Do you ever feel any guilt?
> I feel guilty when I kill a mosquito.
> ...


_
That's OK. I take no offense. To take the life of an animal is not an easy thing to do. If it were, I would be very concerned about my ethics and attitude. There is a lot of consideration before pulling the trigger as we are both very ethical hunters. Is the animal of good size? Are there any little ones around; better to wait to see if any cubs of fawns come in. Is it a good shot so that the animal won't suffer? Did you do plenty of sighting with your weapon to make sure the shot places where you want it to? 

We take hunting very seriously. I always kneel beside my animal and thank God for the gift of food for our family and ask Him to take the spirit of it home with Him.

I think because of this, we appreciate what we eat more than many who go to a market and buy pre-packaged meat without a thought for where that meat came from. I have actually stopped people in their tracks as they started to criticize me for killing an animal just by asking them if they eat meat and whether or not they realize that the meat in the market was on the hoof or leg at one time too._


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> Ponki - great reply and very thorough! I also find the raw diet to be very intriguing, tho I know that I would never switch Snoops to it. Just not my thing... I do however cook him chicken as a treat every now and again and shred it up and mix it with his kibble. We haven't experienced diarrhea, but perhaps that's because we are mixing it. Each pup is different, right?!
> 
> As for the worms - Snoops recently had a bout with tapeworm. I had written that he is on monthly Interceptor (not knowing that it doesn't cover tapeworm... d'oh!). Just as a reminder for myself and anyone else out there ... Interceptor prevents heartworm disease, controls adult hookworm, and removes and controls adult roundworm and whipworm infections in dogs and puppies.
> 
> Good luck BFF with Zulee and the possible switch to raw! :eat:


Thanks  I've given only cooked meat, and it gives my dogs diarrhea. If I mix it with other stuff it's not that bad, but they still had really loose stools.

I agree ... one really needs to go with what works for you. Not everyone that follows a raw diet likes it. My dobes are not on raw cause they experienced constant diarrhea... even thou I switched them the same way I did Ponki. 
I've tried switching them to raw many times with the same result, which is unfortunate. So I've finally settled them on Acana. 

Good luck BFF.... I do hope you find something that works for you. There truely are a lot of options when it comes to raw feeding


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Thank you so much for sharing some of your hunting pictures with us. Great shots, both types, rifle and camera. Bet you were pretty proud of your bear shot, I sure would be. Does Brandy have an animal treed in that last pic? I couldn't tell for sure. Boy I can't believe how active that you guys seem to be. I have also been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, and also went thru chemo 3 yrs. ago after being diagnossed with non hodgkins lymphoma cancer. The chemo treatments left me with neuro numbness in both my hands and my feet, and I am fatigued much of the time now. My husband ruptured 5 discs in his back 5 yrs. ago, and doctor was able to operate on 3 of them. My husband was always a workaholic, so he was glad to hear that the doctor thought he w/b back to work in 6 wks. time. Well, things didn't work out that way, sense my hubby had never been sick or had any type of surgery b-4 nobody knew that he would be one of those unlucky persons that grow a lot of scar tissue, which causes him to have the same type of pain that he had b-4 his operation, so he never made it back to work. We both really miss doing a lot of the things that we were use to doing. We still do as much as we can, as often as we can, but not as often as we would like to. It is deer season here right now, I didn't send in for my license this yr., my hubby applied for archery only so he could get the zone he wanted, and can hunt both during archery, which he did, and also in rifle, which is going on right now. This is his first yr. able to bow hunt since his back injury, because he ended up getting rid of his compound bow because he couldn't draw it back anymore, due to his injury. Now he can legally hunt with a crossbow with a disabled hunting license. He now has a crossbow with a crank attached for cocking the bow. So now he's able to bow hunt again, which makes him a happy hunter. Now if he's able to drop something with his new toy besides just hunting, he'll be an even happier hunter. Please any more pictures that you may find and can send w/b very nice to see, we watch many hunting and fishing programs on t.v. We also use to own horses. Raised quarter horses for many yrs. Had about 30 head at one time, counting our foals. Doctor says no more riding for my hubby, says he doesn't have enough pain meds. to keep him sane if he rides anymore. Use to horse back into the high sierras to deer hunt every yr. , sure do miss this trip. Well at least we will always have the memories, some people never get to do some of the things that we have done. We have enjoyed every minute of it too. BTW, do you mind me asking what you have done that seems to have helped you so much with your fibromyalgia, because you are absolutely right, you definately look like you are feeling a lot better now then back when you were first diagnosed.


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

How would someone get into the hunter circle if they dont know anyone that does hunt. I've always been curious about it, and though I probably could never hold a gun much less shoot with it. It would be a neat thing to go along with them


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Sooooo sorry I got carried away in my previous post and got off topic the way that I did. But jusst wqnted to say "DITTO" to everything that spoospirit said about her beliefs in hunting. Never shoot anything that you will not consume or use.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

I love the hunting pics! Thank you SpooSpirit for sharing them and especially enjoyed your thoughts and prayer to God. My Grandfather had a farm with cattle and aptly named them "Steak" or "T-Bone". We quickly got the idea they weren't pets. It's one thing when you shoot an animal roaming and another when you raise it. It seems like a lot of people lose the connection to the grocery store. I for one am like SpooFan and more than a little thankful for that.

It's also very inspiring to hear about your fight with Fibromyalgia. I've heard it can be very painful physically, but it also sounds like it can be very limiting emotionally. Fuzbutz, it sounds like you have done some amazing things. I'm sorry it's not as easy to do them now. Another reason to be thankful for what we have and make the most of it.

Thank you Ponki for all of your suggestions. I'm still trying to figure out all of the logistics of feeding raw.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

PS...It seems to me if you wanted to know more about hunting, you could ask a local gun range or where they sell hunting licenses. It's always better when you have friends you can go with, but taking gun classes could help you meet some people with a similar interest. Even if you don't want to actually shoot them, I know some people will go and 'shoot' with a camera. I'm sure there is likely a certain etiquette for how you take photos making sure you don't spook the game at the wrong time.


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

SpooSpirit - Thanks for sharing. Amazing photos and excellent sportsmanship!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Emily-By said:


> How would someone get into the hunter circle if they dont know anyone that does hunt. I've always been curious about it, and though I probably could never hold a gun much less shoot with it. It would be a neat thing to go along with them


BFF's suggestions are excellent. I was born into a hunting family descended from Canadian loggers. I have stayed in that circle most of my life so it has always been a part of what I am about.

_A gun range is an excellent place to test the ground. You should find many people there more than happy to answer any questions you have and guide you in the right direction. 

I don't always hunt with a weapon. I have brought my camera in a few times but wasn't lucky enough to have animals come in before it was too dark to shoot without a flash. One time I went out opening day of bear season with my rifle and my camera absolutely convinced the only thing I might shoot would be my camera. Low and behold, over the top of the knoll comes a black bear and I took him with the rifle! That kind of luck just doesn't grace you very often in your lifetime. I still am amazed by that day._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I, too, am grateful for the grocery store. I wouldn't want to have to capture everything I eat. I think that might be a bit much for me. I do like the convenience of someone else having done it for me so I can just take it home and make a good meal!! LOL 

Fuzzbutz, that is one amazing story. Even though you and your husband are both limited now, you had a really great time in your lives to remember always. It is what helps get you though the new life.

Brandy didn't have anything treed; she was just curious about that big, black hole and whether there was something interesting in there for her to play with. LOL We were not hunting that day. We are in the habit of carrying a sidearm or rifle when walking these mountains should we have a bad encounter. My husband was unarmed once when walking through very tall brush. He walked straight into a large bear that stood up right in front of him! All turned out well for both of them fortunately.

The fybro was debilitating for nearly two years. Hence the reason that there are no recent hunting pics. I was hospitalized for a bit than spent many long months learning how to live all over again in a different way that included a great deal of taking care of myself. I am, by nature, a caretaker so it went strongly against the grain. I had to make physical, emotional, and mental adjustments that weren't easy for me. I cried a lot and spent a lot of time in severe depression at first. My team of doctors tried many medications over several months before they found the right combination to keep as level as possible. Fortunately, no cancer scares. I have normal aging issues like osteoarthritis and struggles with weight. Meds haven't helped since they added weight.

My education was to learn myself inside and out. What I could do, what I should not do, when I could do it and when to lay low. The struggle is never gone but is manageable now. I don't always get it right and sometimes life's demands override what I know I should do. Then I have a flare-up and have to weather it until my system settles down again. I have had a couple of hard crashes in the last two years but for the most part, manage well.

I am fortunate that my husband is still healthy and watches over me all the time. This makes life for me a whole lot easier than it is for you. When I really want to do something but am not sure I can, he helps me manage it and encourages me. If he looks at me and sees that it would be a mistake, he tells me 'no' and that's that. It really has to be a family effort to deal with this.

I will still ride and I will still fish and hunt, and I will work with my spoos and enjoy them because I refuse to give up everything in my life. I'm just stubborn that way. I will push sometimes knowing that I am going to be down but I look at my calendar and make sure I can afford it.

I'm really sorry to hear that your husband, too, is disabled. It must be a real challenge for both of you. I'm glad to hear that he got the special license to use a crossbow and will try hunting again. I wish him much luck. We have a good friend who had a stroke in his forties and is licensed for a crossbow. He has done well with it. He has even gone to hunt big game like water buffalo. We have had some interesting meat from his hunts!_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> SpooSpirit - Thanks for sharing. Amazing photos and excellent sportsmanship!


_
Thank you for the compliment._


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

spoospirit, One of my husbands hunting buddies just came back from the high sierras today. He sent this picture with a message about an hour ago and is going to call later. His message said that they saw 4 nice bucks but were unable to get any shots. This is the trail into the camp that my husband always went to every year and where I rode in with them one year. This is how everyone that hunts up there gets in, by horseback and pack horses. Sorry about hi-jacking thread again., should have started a new thread I guess.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

(Wow, this threads gone a long way since I last posted!)

Man, you have no idea how excited I am about hearing that game meat is good for the dogs! Around here, cottontail has a season, but you can hunt jackrabbits year round, so that'll be an option for me when I get my poodle. I'll probably do the one kibble meal a day and one raw meal a day.

I've also been criticized about hunting, but I also don't eat domesticated red meat, since I don't agree with how most of the animals are treated. I eat free ranged turkey and chicken or the meat I harvest myself from the wild (with the appropriate licenses and permits of course.)

Also, with hunting, it's not like the animal's restrained while their throats are slit. MOST of the animals I'd say we aim at or try to go for get away. Either they smell us before they're in ranged, we miss and they say SEE YA BYE, or they see us first and leave. It's called hunting, not killing. It's never a guarantee that you'll get what you're hunting for.

I don't shoot if I believe an animal is out of range, because that's a chance my aim might be off and I'll injure the animal instead of a humane death. And yes, I've felt guilt for hunting. My first and only deer so far, actually. My friends said I acted very odd for a couple days, I can't explain it. I respected the animal completely though, and the meat lasts you a long time.









Oh, and that's a young mule deer, in the sage bush deserts of north eastern utah.. It's a lot colder than it looks, lol.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I've also been criticized about hunting, but I also don't eat domesticated red meat, since I don't agree with how most of the animals are treated. I eat free ranged turkey and chicken or the meat I harvest myself from the wild (with the appropriate licenses and permits of course.)


I haven't eaten meat in 2 years, but if I did, I'd rather eat wild game than farmed domesticated meat. At least wild animals have a great life up until the point where they're killed and then it's all over before they know it.  As long as there's controls on hunting and no one group of animals is overhunted then I see no problem with it!

I personally would struggle to hunt though, but am impressed by how many people on here are avid hunters!


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I haven't eaten meat in 2 years, but if I did, I'd rather eat wild game than farmed domesticated meat. At least wild animals have a great life up until the point where they're killed and then it's all over before they know it.  As long as there's controls on hunting and no one group of animals is overhunted then I see no problem with it!
> 
> I personally would struggle to hunt though, but am impressed by how many people on here are avid hunters!


I don't eat meat either...
As a child my father was a professional hunter/ game tracker in South-Africa. Depending on what wild animals, I think eating wild meat is better.... but the only downside to it is that wild animals do not get treated for worm infestations or diseases. You ever seen a deer meat infested with a worms? It's really nasty! uke:


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Have you ever seen bots on a beef? They start out as a type of heel fly egg that has attached onto the leg. It travels through the body just under the skin, until it ends up on the back. Pops out of the back of the beef as a large MAGOT. Soooo GROSS., but does not enter the fleshy part of the animal at all and does not effect the meat at all. It does effect the price of the pelt if they have bot holes in them where the worms popped through. (even horses, although very seldom, will sometimes end up with a bot traveling through them, but for some reason these bots usually do not mature to large ones like they do in cattle) Sometimes cattle will also end up with a liver fluke worm, also very GROSS. Don't know if other types of animals or wild game also get these. Usually cattle that have grazed on a sandy type of soil are the oness that may end up with a fluke. Again, does not affect the meat other then the liver. Yes, we have seen wild game infested with worms and have even seen fish infested also, thats why a person needs to inspect their wild game very well themselves. In fact inspecting your own wild game, probably gets a better inspection than USDA usually does on the slaughter floor of a commercial slaughter house. Have heard horror stories of how some of our meat that we buy passes inspection.


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Fluffyspoos, Nice mule deer. looks like a forked horn in the picture. Area looks a lot like where we lived in Snowville, Ut. Did you have any deer jerky made from your deer? "YUM"


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

FUZBUTZ said:


> Have you ever seen bots on a beef? They start out as a type of heel fly egg that has attached onto the leg. It travels through the body just under the skin, until it ends up on the back. Pops out of the back of the beef as a large MAGOT. Soooo GROSS., but does not enter the fleshy part of the animal at all and does not effect the meat at all. It does effect the price of the pelt if they have bot holes in them where the worms popped through. (even horses, although very seldom, will sometimes end up with a bot traveling through them, but for some reason these bots usually do not mature to large ones like they do in cattle) Sometimes cattle will also end up with a liver fluke worm, also very GROSS. Don't know if other types of animals or wild game also get these. Usually cattle that have grazed on a sandy type of soil are the oness that may end up with a fluke. Again, does not affect the meat other then the liver. Yes, we have seen wild game infested with worms and have even seen fish infested also, thats why a person needs to inspect their wild game very well themselves. In fact inspecting your own wild game, probably gets a better inspection than USDA usually does on the slaughter floor of a commercial slaughter house. Have heard horror stories of how some of our meat that we buy passes inspection.


I haven’t seen bots, but I’ve heard of them.... it sounds similar to “mango worms” .
These are also caused by the mango fly/myiatic flies that lay eggs on the fur of animals or on human clothing and then the eggs penetrate the skin and basically hatch into a maggot when it reaches the tissue. Disgusting! When you look at the skin it looks like it’s covered in blackheads... but it’s in fact the head of the maggot.
I do agree... I don’t trust the USDA inspections (that’s why I’m vegan). Ever read “skinny bitch”?... they have quite a few chapters on what is going on in factory farms. It really is an eye opener. I try not to buy anything that was certified or inspected by the USDA.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Great pictures!

I could never go hunting (too much of a chicken!), but I do love my meat. :biggrin: I am an omnivore and thoroughly enjoy all my food groups.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I too appreciate the pics! I'm actually taking recreational shooting as a college PE class. The teacher is/was an avid hunter and adds a lot of extra info to the class from his personal experiences. Right now we're working on archerey, but will be working w/ guns later in the semester. Our final exam is actually the hunter safety test. I'm sure if anyone asked about learning to hunt he would be more than happy to direct them in the right direction. In addition to a shooting range, I would suggest finding a privately owned gun shop. This is, if you can find one. My grandfather owned a army/navy surplus store for years and he also taught hunter safety courses and raised gun dogs. You could also talk to someone that competes in hunting tests or field trials for dogs. I've been thinking more and more about going hunting.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

FUZBUTZ said:


> Fluffyspoos, Nice mule deer. looks like a forked horn in the picture. Area looks a lot like where we lived in Snowville, Ut. Did you have any deer jerky made from your deer? "YUM"


You bet we did! Though it was our first attempt at doing it, it still needs some work but I think it came out delish!

Oh, and here's a picture from the dove hunt earlier this month. It would have been nice to have had a retriever (poodle!) since some of those birds were pretty hard to find.









(I look like a total dork in that picture) I saved all the doves wings and they're frozen in an air tight bag right now, and I'm going to use them to train my puppy next spring/summer.


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Great idea saving/freezing the wings for training your future pup Fluffyspoos. BTW, you do not look like a dork in your dove hunt picture. Is that your dad in the picture with you? I bet it is, you look alot alike. Looks like the two of you have a lot of fun together.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yup, that's my old man. We've been hunting together for about 7 years now, and fishing since I could walk


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Thats so cool Fluffyspoos, sounds like you're a daddy's girl or should I say tomboy, and I mean that in a good way.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Right now I am taking animal nutrition. The first thing my teacher said ( he is a vet by the way ) is "if you are not a bio chemist / animal nutritionist you should not be making your dogs food" He said this like 5 times already lol

He has taken upper level nutritional classes and he still does not make his own dog food. I know a lot of people feed raw and the swear by it. A lot of people have had great results. My teachers fear is that people will not give the dogs the right amount of the vitamins, and other essential nutrients a dog needs. ( basically you have to do all of these calculations to see if the dog is getting the right amount) 

I don't know if you guys remember Andy the red standard poodle from the grooming shop I work at? well his owner was feeding him raw food that was already made from a dog food company. Andy had a bunch of problems. first he did not gain weight, his hair was horrible always dry an straw like. Looking at him Andy seems undeveloped. My sister told him to stop feeding him raw and just feed him kibble. Today Andy is a good weight his hair is healthy.

Feeding your cats raw is easier because you can just give them meat and they will do way better on meat than any cat food in the world.


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

Do you need a university diploma in human nutrition to feed kids?
I have been feeding raw and various forms of it for a long time now, I take my dogs in for blood tests on a regular basis and none of them are deficient in anything-not compared to the way they were when they were on 'premium kibble' (vit Bs, zinc, fatty acids). This is just fear mongering, in the end he'll tell you Iams and ukanuba or another BBC are the best foods out there. because he is being paid by big corp to do so.

Do you know that vets do not get ANY nutritional education in school and if they do it is paid for by these BBC, guess who also funds 'advanced' nutrition courses? thats right BBC. Same with behavior, I hate hate hate it how people walk around saying that my vet told me to do this so I am doing it when in reality their vets were pulling the answer out of their butt.
Vets get kick backs from selling you the foods that they carry, They also give BIGGER kick backs from selling you drugs thats why you ALWAYS get a Rx and order it from your human pharmacy or online.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Emily-By said:


> Do you need a university diploma in human nutrition to feed kids?
> I have been feeding raw and various forms of it for a long time now, I take my dogs in for blood tests on a regular basis and none of them are deficient in anything-not compared to the way they were when they were on 'premium kibble' (vit Bs, zinc, fatty acids). This is just fear mongering, in the end he'll tell you Iams and ukanuba or another BBC are the best foods out there. because he is being paid by big corp to do so.
> 
> Do you know that vets do not get ANY nutritional education in school and if they do it is paid for by these BBC, guess who also funds 'advanced' nutrition courses? thats right BBC. Same with behavior, I hate hate hate it how people walk around saying that my vet told me to do this so I am doing it when in reality their vets were pulling the answer out of their butt.
> Vets get kick backs from selling you the foods that they carry, They also give BIGGER kick backs from selling you drugs thats why you ALWAYS get a Rx and order it from your human pharmacy or online.


I did not say you need a diploma to feed your dogs. I am just quoting what my teacher said. I did not say feeding you dog raw food was bad ? 

I live in USA and my teacher took nutritional class and was not paid to do it.
just because you seen of read some info does not hold true for all vets. ( I sure know when I get to vet school no one is going to pay me to take a class I wish LMAO). The vet schools where I am from have nutritional classes and you have to get a seperate degree for it. I think highly of my teacher and he is not getting paid to just tell us lies or nonsense he is very passionate about what he does. 

He was just giving a warning because all of the people I know who feed raw do not take their dogs blood in like you do. You are very into it and a lot of people do not go in depth when deciding to feed raw.


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm not saying that he didn't pay for the class but chances are that the program that he took was funded by BBC, I know this first hand. I was a Vet student but decided to do something else with my life because of how truly corrupt the vet world is. I failed my nutrition course because refused to accept that Dog Chow(the funding company for that year) was nutritionally the best product on the market! (and that wasn't the worst of it) IMO Rollover is a better product based on what I know. 

70 years ago when dog food was non existent, how did they [dogs] live so long? I take it you have read some of James Harriots books? he was treating a 15 year old Great Dane in one story, that is completely unheard of in todays world. What one earth did the dogs do before kibble? before calculations? they got fed real food and they lived longer healthful lives! 

Ask your teacher who funded the courses that he took. Who funded the research? Do you know what product he feeds his dogs? which brands? My best guess is that he has been given enough money to off set him morals, or truly clueless as to the true needs of a living animal.

It is health over time. you don't get all your nutritional needs every single day. You eat broccoli today, tomatoes tomorrow, fish two nights a week ect. doing calculations to make sure they are getting the exact right amount is ridiculous. Each dog/human/cat/bird is an individual. Their nutritional needs are different depending on their moods, genetics, climate, altitude, waking hours ect you cannot bring all those factors into an equation because they are infinite.

The Canadians have a food guide[not sure about America] and even in humans there is no ideal diet, or magic number. You try for the best and cover all your bases and adjust from there. 

Ask more questions, do not accept this course at face value, do not accept everything they say to you as truth, ask them why every step of the way!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Emily-By said:


> I'm not saying that he didn't pay for the class but chances are that the program that he took was funded by BBC, I know this first hand. I was a Vet student but decided to do something else with my life because of how truly corrupt the vet world is. I failed my nutrition course because refused to accept that Dog Chow(the funding company for that year) was nutritionally the best product on the market! (and that wasn't the worst of it) IMO Rollover is a better product based on what I know.
> 
> 70 years ago when dog food was non existent, how did they [dogs] live so long? I take it you have read some of James Harriots books? he was treating a 15 year old Great Dane in one story, that is completely unheard of in todays world. What one earth did the dogs do before kibble? before calculations? they got fed real food and they lived longer healthful lives!
> 
> ...



I am sorry but you do not know my teacher to even come to that conclusion. My teacher is head of the Agricultural Department he did not get there by throwing his morals out the door. I will just leave it at that, I am sorry you experienced bad vets in the pass that are not passionate or knowledgeable we all been there.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I feed raw, cause for millions of years dogs/wolves and their ancestors have eaten meat. Their digestive systems where made to digest raw meat. And somehow they have survived thousands of years without the consultation of nutritionists.
Wild dogs still eat ONLY meat whether they caught it themselves or picked it up as road kill etc. they don't get vita supplements and they don't get grains and veg that all the kibble companies try to convince us they "need". 
Kibble is only a recent invention that turned into a multi million industry... before there was kibble people cooked food for their dogs or just gave them scraps.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

PonkiPoodles said:


> I feed raw, cause for millions of years dogs/wolves and their ancestors have eaten meat. Their digestive systems where made to digest raw meat. And somehow they have survived thousands of years without the consultation of nutritionists.
> Wild dogs still eat ONLY meat whether they caught it themselves or picked it up as road kill etc. they don't get vita supplements and they don't get grains and veg that all the kibble companies try to convince us they "need".
> Kibble is only a recent invention that turned into a multi million industry... before there was kibble people cooked food for their dogs or just gave them scraps.


It is amazing what a multi-million dollar dog food industry can convince us of! Since the time that the man kind domesticated the wolf, it was fine to feed our pets food scraps, cook for them and give them bones, but since the invention of dog food it has all become a huge no-no.  All of a sudden, we are not educated enough to make our dogs' food, because it has to be completely nutritionally balanced, whatever that means. It is a miracle that we are able to raise our own human children, no one makes their completely balanced kids food.  Our dogs and cats live much shorter lives and suffer from diseases previously unheard of in dogs. I figure if it worked for millions of years it will still work. 

Our vets have minimal education in nutrition (just like our doctors). They are courted by the dog food industry while still in vet school, so I take what they say about nutrition with a grain of salt.


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## Evik (Sep 2, 2009)

Emily-By said:


> What one earth did the dogs do before kibble? before calculations? they got fed real food and they lived longer healthful lives!


*100% truth

*


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## Mark Keating (Sep 14, 2009)

We have been feeding raw for the better part of the last 10 years.
When we bought our female, the breeder told us if we give her bones it will kill her!
I told her its strange Buff is still rockin after many, many, chicken necks.
She also called the raw diet a fad diet. Which was a little frustrating.
Here is a link to why I thought that was frustrating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2QgqbIdwu4
What a fad!! here and gone.

BTW, good ol' Jack is still kickin strong as ever at I think 93 years old.
Maybe he knows something!
Take care
Mark


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Great clip Mark, thanks for sharing


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

*I am resurrecting this thread PlumCrazy!!*

I was searching for camera discussions and came up with this thread on RAW - and it has been coming up from time to time. I thought it had valuable information in it! 

BTW - love the pictures of the game meats! I am SOOOO Jealous of this!! - to feed my dogs that is!

Right now we are only a few months in - mine are doing chicken, turkey and pork.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> *I am resurrecting this thread PlumCrazy!!*


*YES! YES! YES!!!!! *

Thank you Olie!! This is (IMO) a proper thread to ressurect. The ones I have issue with are the ones where someone says "look at my new puppy that I'm going to breed when it's 10 months old", or "I changed my user name" and then the OP falls off the face of the planet, never posts again, and two years later someone comes on and asks a question about that old, moldy thread, bumping it back up to new posts!! :lol:

This is a very valuable and useful educational thread and thank you for "bumping" it back up! 

Carry on!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Emily-By said:


> I'm not saying that he didn't pay for the class but chances are that the program that he took was funded by BBC, I know this first hand. I was a Vet student but decided to do something else with my life because of how truly corrupt the vet world is. I failed my nutrition course because refused to accept that Dog Chow(the funding company for that year) was nutritionally the best product on the market! (and that wasn't the worst of it) IMO Rollover is a better product based on what I know.
> 
> 70 years ago when dog food was non existent, how did they [dogs] live so long? I take it you have read some of James Harriots books? he was treating a 15 year old Great Dane in one story, that is completely unheard of in todays world. What one earth did the dogs do before kibble? before calculations? they got fed real food and they lived longer healthful lives!
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree with this more, nor could I have put it as well.


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## Lotusland spoos (May 10, 2010)

I have been feed raw to my dogs for 3 years and they are doing great. Lots of info on the web. Just a tip - if you feed raw chicken carcasses to your dogs - a great and cheap source are asian meat stores. I buy mine in 40 pound cases for $20. Only about 50 cent a pound.


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## Panda (Jan 7, 2010)

I wanted Panda to eat Raw but he only would eat tripe, he wouldn't even lick raw chicken and raw beef he licked but kept spitting back out 0_o He ate the tiniest bit of minced beef but he needs to be eating the bones to be able to benefit from a raw diet, hmmm, I guess I will try again when he is a bit older


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I started off with things I can find that were acceptable for a RPM. Meats vary in price and availabilty. I have no co-ops in this area.

We startied off slow with chicken. Wings, leg quarters and thighs. The only time I could get necks and backs was if we got whole chicken or turkeys on sale. 

After 6 weeks we moved to pork ribs, they love these as well as pork butt. We have done beef ribs but the bone in ribs is impossible to chew and eat so they chew and I pick up after. We are to the point that we will be moving to fish (which I cannot get cheap) and other meats. 

I do meassure sometimes because ALL my dogs gained weight off the switch from kibble. My pom Coco is up to 13lbs, he should be at 10-11 (he's a bigger pom) Suri came to me a little thin at 43 lbs, she now weights 53 and Olie weighs 48 - even with those skinny legs. LOL!! 

Suri will never eat kibble again. She has took to RAW so well - she rarely has a bad belly day. Poos are perfect - and she never misses a meal!! That is amazing. 

The others I am consider using a high end no grain kibble for their coats from time to time, but have not started this. 

That is the one thing I have not seem improve was the spoos coats. The pom, yes. And the results to their teeth is incrediable. We do not have to brush every week!!


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Zulee has been doing great for months now. I have tried giving her different types of fish, but she won't have anything to do with it. We have tried salmon (cooked and raw), steelhead trout, catfish, and sardines. Should I give her fish oil suppliments? 

I'm also trying to find other bones for her to consume besides chicken necks and wings. She is a prissy eater and won't do much with chicken backs. Any beef suggestions? Remember that she is smaller.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Beef - IMO there is not much because they cannot chew them or they are just so hard I am afraid the bigger one will break teeth.

I would say try the pork ribs and beef ribs - although they cannot eat the beef bone, they will still be getting the protein. Also you can get ground beef from time to time just so they are getting the change in protein. Have you tried liver? If you can get liver in every few weeks they say suppliments are not that important BUT I have yet to get the poms to hold down liver!! GROSS!! So I am hoping to graduate them in the next couple of months or we may have to use suppliments. 

Sometimes feeding meats somewhat/slighly frozen just to get them to eat it is a good tip. Takes away the smell and texture they don't like. 

Olie and Suri will eat the liver if they have too (and they do ) but they do not like it.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

BFF said:


> Zulee has been doing great for months now. I have tried giving her different types of fish, but she won't have anything to do with it. We have tried salmon (cooked and raw), steelhead trout, catfish, and sardines. Should I give her fish oil suppliments?
> *Do not feed salmon raw*! I saw something at my vet saying it has a parasite or something. Maybe it was only wild caught salmon.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Olie said:


> Beef - IMO there is not much because they cannot chew them or they are just so hard I am afraid the bigger one will break teeth.
> 
> I would say try the pork ribs and beef ribs - although they cannot eat the beef bone, they will still be getting the protein. Also you can get ground beef from time to time just so they are getting the change in protein. Have you tried liver? If you can get liver in every few weeks they say suppliments are not that important BUT I have yet to get the poms to hold down liver!! GROSS!! So I am hoping to graduate them in the next couple of months or we may have to use suppliments.
> 
> ...


Thanks Olie! She loves liver (chicken and beef) and beef kidneys. I have to cook it a bit though. She doesn't like it raw and slimy. LOL. I'll try the other bones for a treat to see what she does with them. I am on the same line as you though. I don't see the need to feed supplements, but I know that can be debatable.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Hi Desiree. Thanks for the suggestion on the salmon. I haven't heard of a parasite to be concerned about. Do you know what it is or an article I could read to get more information?

People have been feeding raw fish to dogs for ages....even salmon. Of all of the wild caught animals fed to dogs, I would tend to be more leary of wild deer, duck, rabbit and other game. However, dogs have been well fed with these too. I'm sure there are parasites to be concerned about in anything we eat. Unfortunately, I am more concerned about meat/veggies raised on commercial farms and processed in large plants than I am about game in the wild.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I have heard its with wild caught salmon that there is a slight chance of a parasite. Also this is a VERY $$$ catch. I wont be feeding anymore then store bought fresh or canned. 



Myths About Raw: Will my dog aquire parasites from raw meat?


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Olie said:


> I have heard its with wild caught salmon that there is a slight chance of a parasite. Also this is a VERY $$$ catch. I wont be feeding anymore then store bought fresh or canned.
> 
> 
> 
> Myths About Raw: Will my dog aquire parasites from raw meat?


Thanks for the info, it's good to know that after it's frozen 24 hours it's all good.


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