# dog park doodle and poodle interaction



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I had a similar experience with a client last week, although I was biting my tongue during the whole interaction so that I wouldn't offend them lol. The couple bought two "Australian" labradoodles. They were both gaga over Nova, swooning over her, calling the neighbors to come and meet this "amazing" poodle. The husband kept saying "man I want one of these dogs". The wife, who is a hobby photographer, took close to 50 pictures of Nova while we were at their house. I didn't ask, but I really wanted to splurt out "so WHY did you pay so much money for a mutt?!?!? Why didn't you just get a poodle?!?!?" 

It confuses me to no end. I wouldn't beat yourself up over it. People get their feelings hurt to easily. Rather than being offended, he should have been able to offer up a civil disagreement and been able to have a conversation with you about it. But that is probably expecting a lot from someone who bought a doodle...

ETA: The Australian Labradoodle is not from Australia despite the name. It's a "special" kind of labradoodle... even worse than the original. liljakers post made me think I should clarify... though I wouldn't doubt if these folks paid close to that amount for these dogs.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a guy at Home Depot. I pulled into the parking lot and the SUV next to me (Mercedes) had a very huge dog, thick curly coffee brown hair (in need of a cut) and huge hazel brown eyes --- I did melt, being the pet person I am.....as I got out of my car, I walked over to see what kind of a dog it was and he was calmly sitting there watching me, as the window was down about 5". All of a sudden, the owner, who was in the landscaping dept. saw me and came over. "His name is Henry" -- I told him he was beautiful (looked like an unkempt poodle under all the hair). I asked, is it a poodle? It's a labradoodle, from Australia, he's my daughter's..... well, the daughter asked the dad for the credit card and he paid for the dog, the daughter went to school and now its "his dog". He raved on and on about Henri, saying he is the best dog in the world. BTW, he cost $3,500 (shipping from Australia included there). I asked him why a labradoodle????? All the qualities you like in him, come in the poodle, you know. He was not convinced. He "wore" his Australian mixed dog" like one would wear a designer watch. So sad. 

P.S. Henri was adorable, very calm and very very big. I would guess 70 or 75 pounds for sure.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Lol Outwest, I don't think you're terrible with people...if people loved their doodles as much as we love our poodles they would be happy to explain their decision to pay that much for one ^_^ 

The breeding comment had me sniggering though XD
The dog in our house that gets the most "Is he fixed? I have a girl we'd like to breed to him!" is our doodle rescue...some people I tell ya v.v;


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm not sure what to say to this.

I own a doodle, I chose a doodle. My first dog ever (born 20 years ago) was a doodle. He was a great dog, albeit an accident, and we called him a poodle cross (he looked like a poodle) until Labradoodles were 'invented'.

I am not sure that people here understand how the ordinary person chooses dogs. In the old days (yes I am 50 years old) people had mutts which ran around the streets, met one another and had mutt babies. When the kids finally persuaded the parents to get a dog, one would look in the post office window and wander round to the neighbours and pick up a cute mutt puppy. Purebreds were not for ordinary people like us. I knew a man in my street with a pedigree labrador and we thought that was ever so posh!

People like me decide to have a dog. We spend ages thinking about 'dog'. How much will it cost to keep, vet bills, who will walk it and when, what do we do if we want to go away? etc etc. We decide we can cope with all this and we decide to get a dog. We want maybe a big one, or a small one, but a dog.

So we go and look in the post office window. We realise that ALL the dogs there are pit bull crosses, staffy crosses, or similar. OH no we go, we don't want that sort of dog, we want a family pet sort of dog. So we go to the shelter. Pitbulls and staffies.
A bit of thought, and a half remembered conversation with an old chap i met a few years ago.

He reckoned that the problem with dogs nowadays is that the responsible dog ownership bit has got through. We all have our dogs spayed and neutered. Except those who don't care. Now whilst i am sure there are lots of responsible pitt and staffy dog owners out there, there are plenty who are not. So what we get in the post office window and in the shelters are pitts and Staffys.

So people like me go to the internet, we know we are not supposed to buy from pet shops because of puppy mills (that message got through too!) and we think the internet will help us find a pup. We go onto Trademe (NZ version of ebay) and what do we find? lots of puppies. Many of which are poodle crosses. Very cute friendly looking dogs. In fact there are more poodle crosses than anything else. And here at any rate they are cheaper than the pure breds. They are bred in homes by people who love them. So we go visit and buy a cute puppy. Just like that!

Then we join a doggy forum to help us do the best for our puppy and find a whole nother world out there that calls our cute, friendly bundles of fluff by rude names and are rude to us when they meet us in the flesh.

I know about testing now (I learnt when i had a shelter pup, Jess, with genetic illnesses, who died aged 9 months) but I had never heard of it before. Why should I? When people like me do our research about buying we talk about vet emergencies, and how to pay for them, about the cost of dog food (who ever knew there were designer DOG FOODS!!) about where it will sleep and who will walk it. We don't talk about parental testing and bloodlines. Why should we? We have never heard of them.

We buy doodles because they are available. Because we want a dog, because we would like a cute dog given our druthers, because they are happy, friendly and trainable, and if that is the poodle in them? So what? why not a poodle? Never thought of it, but if I had i would have to go on a waiting list, be interrogated in every aspect of my life and maybe not be deemed suitable, and pay a fortune. I get a cute friendly mostly poodle puppy and I am happy.

Actually I did look for a labradoodle amongst all those cute puppies, as we had one before, albeit before they were invented, and he was a great dog.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Katie said:


> Actually I did look for a labradoodle amongst all those cute puppies, as we had one before, albeit before they were invented, and he was a great dog.


So why not adopt one from a shelter? That is EXACTLY my problem with this. I don't have a problem with DOODLES. I have a problem with the people who breed them, and the people who support those breeders by purchasing them. There are plenty of poodle mixes in shelters who are great dogs. 



Katie said:


> So we go and look in the post office window. We realise that ALL the dogs there are pit bull crosses, staffy crosses, or similar. OH no we go, we don't want that sort of dog, we want a family pet sort of dog. So we go to the shelter. Pitbulls and staffies.
> A bit of thought, and a half remembered conversation with an old chap i met a few years ago.


Pits and staffys make GREAT family pets. Lots of them do end up in shelters because of irresponsible breeding, just like _lots of poodle mixes_. 

Katie, I think your dog is precious. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him. I'm sure he is a wonderful pet. But I do not think highly of your decision to purchase a mutt from a breeder. It's breeders like that who contribute to the over population of animal shelters. There is no reason whatsoever to be breeding mix breed dogs. As you said, there are plenty of them wandering the streets and taking it upon themselves to produce more mix-breed dogs. You wanted a doodle because your last dog was great and he was a doodle? Ok, that's totally cool and completely understandable. But why not rescue? Why pay money for one at all?


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

What doodles in rescues? Believe me we tried!

Jess (we got in mid 2010) was the ONLY dog in the rescue that was not a pitt or staffy mix. She died aged 9 months of genetic illnesses. That was when I learnt about parental testing. Jess was in a cardboard box at the rescue door one morning aged 6-8 weeks.

If there had been a doodle of any kind, or actually any dog without a bull breed in it I would have had it.

I'm sorry i don't like pitt bulls, although I know several wonderful pet ones, i dont want one. I really don't. We wanted to rescue a dog. We didn't want a pitt bull or a staffy. We tried rescue first. Despite the whole Jess saga we were ready to rescue another dog. Where are these rescue doodles? And Jess wasn't a doodle, a lab/hunterway cross. We would have had any dog except a bull breed. But when i went online i picked a doodle, because we had one before.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks so much for your thoughts, Katie. You did join a POODLE forum and in a poodle forum a lot of people are very angry with doodles. I am one of those people. Doodles are causing people to indiscriminently breed poorly bred poodles (NOT the best representation of the poodle breed) to other dogs to produce often times hyper dogs that matt so easily no normal pet owner could deal with it without just keeping them shaved down. They tend to be very hyper because the dogs that are bred together are often hyper (a trait that is bred out when encountered in pure standards or labs).

Labradors that are bred for service dogs are wonderful, calm, intelligent dogs with impeccable temperments. Labradors that are bred with poodles are NOT the same labrador that is bred for service. No labrador breeder would ever agree to breed their dog to a poodle and visa versa. 

Doodles are fashionable right now like the pits are. A nicely bred pitbull makes a wonderful family pet, but not most of the pits being bred! It is the exact same for the doodles. Your doodle mix you had as a kid was probably an accident between two nicely bred dogs. 

I am the same age you are. I am sorry you are offended by the doodle trash talk. I do not blame you for buying one. I wish you had researched the breeds a little more is all. You should never have paid for a mixed breed dog. You can get a pure bred dog with papers for the same price you paid for a mutt. THAT'S what I have so much trouble with. I hope he works out well and you love him and he is a great family dog. I hope he is not hyperactive and a problem personality like many of them are. 

There are doodle forums out there for you to join where you will not have to put up with people trash talking your dog. If you remain here, and you are welcome, you will have to put up with being ignored or questioned on your dog choice. Many of us sacrified and searched and waited for our perfect poodle, whether it be a toy, miniature, Moyen or Standard. Most of us, not all, don't have much sympathy for a doodle owner. I am sure you are a wonderful person who thought long and hard about a dog and just made the wrong choice. Just being brutally honest here, sorry.

FYI: I had to sign a paper when I got my puppy that I would never breed to anything other than a purebred poodle, if I chose to breed her at all. I had to sign an acknowledgement that I would get a limited registration for her until such time as all her health testing was completed showing good results and only then would the full registration be released. This is something that all good poodles breeders are concerned with.

Thank you again for explaining why you bought a mutt. I bet it is the same for many doodle owners. They are ignorant. I understand now, but I wish people were more educated on the topic. 
sigh.

Type in your search engine: Doodle forums. I did that and dozens of doodle discussion sites popped up. You won't have to worry about people trash talking your dog. We all love our dogs, mutts or not, but a poodle forum is not going to be the most accepting place for you to talk about your doodle. I, for one, hate doodles.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Katie said:


> What doodles in rescues? Believe me we tried!
> 
> Jess (we got in mid 2010) was the ONLY dog in the rescue that was not a pitt or staffy mix. She died aged 9 months of genetic illnesses. That was when I learnt about parental testing. Jess was in a cardboard box at the rescue door one morning aged 6-8 weeks.
> 
> ...


I have no idea where to even begin to look for any rescue in New Zealand, and perhaps they are few and far between there. I know there are HUNDREDS of them in rescues in my area alone. I wanted a rescue _poodle_ and I had to look for months because all I could find were doodles. I finally did find one, obviously, but it took a long time and a lot of weeding through the poodle mixes (I needed a purebred poodle because of my allergies, so I had to assure she wasn't a mix before adopting her). 


Anyway, I think that you are misunderstanding a lot of the talk that is going on. I love any and all dogs, purebred and mutts alike. I have absolutely no problem with anyone owning a poodle mix, and neither do most people here. I have seen pictures of Ruff, and he is one cute fellow. I just have a huge problem with the designer dog industry (not just doodles, but ALL breeders that produce mix breed dogs for profit). Outwest makes a good point about the fact that most of these "designer dogs" are the product of breeding two very low quality pure-breds, because folks with high quality, healthly, even-tempered purebreds won't allow mix breeding with their lines. Hopefully your Ruff isn't such a case, and even if he is he sounds like he is a wonderful little guy. We aren't bashing your dog, just the breeding practices that produce dogs like him.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I want to make it perfectly clear that I do not hate mixed breeds. I love ALL dogs. What Sookster said is exactly what I was trying to convey. I don't dislike any individual dog. I just hate that people are breeding mutts for profit because gullable people do not know what they are buying and think they look 'cute'. So many end up in rescues here along with the pit bull and chihuahua mixes. With a little patience, any person can own a lovely temperment purebred, healthy dog. People can also get a doodle in a shelter or rescue for next to nothing. Please don't support "breeders" who are in it for the money and don't give a whit what they are breeding together, they do not test for health or temperment and do not care about producing anything other than a cute face that will sell for a lot of money. 

Sookster was able to get a purebred standard poodle in a rescue. There are some in rescue here, too, but not too many. Standards make such excellent pets that few go into rescue.

Heck, people like to think ill of my puppy because she had a miniature in her lines three generations back on one side. LOL Never mind that was one breeding amongst dozens to foreign, working, agility, show and all different kinds of poodles to strengthen the dogs. What do you think they think about purchasing a mixed breed when they don't even think much of my purebred?  

I stick around here because I am tough and I know my dog is more than worthy of the poodle name. If you are tough, you could stick around and try to change my mind, too.


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## BambiDog (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm not really into doodles and the whole designer dog thing, but I do understand where you are coming from about the way you chose a puppy.

I live in the UK and as far as I knew, the way you got a dog was to look at local adverts and search online for adverts in your area for the dog that you wanted, then go along and see if the breeders are good people with happy dogs and choose a puppy... If you wanted a performance dog for showing, you go to an KC registered breeder.

Bambi is the best dog I've ever had. She is 100% poodle but not from a KC reg breeder but what I guess you'd call a BYB/hobby breeder (never knew about those BYBs til recently.. just puppy mills). Having been on this forum I now feel really guilty for doing what I thought was normal and buying a well socialised puppy from a lovely household with happy dogs, because the breeder was not KC reg...


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't actually mind that people don't like doodles...after all I don't like pitbulls!

And from what i have heard here, the doodle industry is doing a major disservice to dogs in general. But of course i had no idea about that! And i think that is the point I am trying to make. Many people here say WHY? Why do people buy doodles when the traits they are looking for are actually poodle traits? And I have tried to the best of my ability to answer that question. Why do people buy doodles? Because that is what is for sale.

I don't even mind doodle bashing on here, i was surprised at first, and slightly startled by some of the comments, but then I am often startled by comments on a variety of forums. And when i joined I asked if it was OK to join with a doodle. i picked a poodle forum because Ruff is such a poodly doodle. the vet thought he was a poodle on first meeting. I thought maybe I should learn about poodle traits.

History, Yes, barney, my first dog was an accident. Mum was a champion field labrador. She had one litter of pups to another field champion who were doing very well. She was resting this cycle and was to be bred next cycle. She was in a fenced garden. The poodle lived at the end of the lane about 1km away. He was from show lines, and was a young dog...around 18 months. Noone seems to know how he got out of his own garden...it had high fencing...but apparently he made short work of the fence that was perfectly adequate for labradors....

The breeder sold the puppies as pets at a low price (I think about 50 sterling) because he didn't want to put them in the paper as free in case people just picked one up without thinking about it. However they were no use to him, although one of Barney's siblings was successful as a field dog apparently. Barney was the curliest of the litter and we called him a poodle cross in those days. If he had resembled mum he would have been called a labrador cross. These things happen and have been happening ever since there have been dogs.

I just want to point out again. I know I am on a poodle forum. I know (now) that doodles are not highly thought of here. I don't mind. However I thought I would try and answer the question WHY that people ask so often.

I don't know about people who order Labradoodles from overseas. That seems weird to me.

In Ruff's case, the dad in the family is a geneticist by trade, and the parent dogs have had all their tests, and are as genetically sound as a geneticist can manage. I only found out about the need for these tests last year, so I did ask. I also met Mum, dad and granny, and played with all 3. They are, however, what I now now know to be back yard breeders. And very nice people they are too! Like Bambidog, this was the way one buys pets where I come from.

I don't want to change anybodys mind. I actually think poodles are great! If I brought another dog it would be a poodle, but i do keep an eye out on the dogwatch site for doodles, so I can pay my dues by rescuing one maybe in the future. But I have never seen one there.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

BambiDog said:


> Bambi is the best dog I've ever had. She is 100% poodle but not from a KC reg breeder but what I guess you'd call a BYB/hobby breeder (never knew about those BYBs til recently.. just puppy mills). Having been on this forum I now feel really guilty for doing what I thought was normal and buying a well socialised puppy from a lovely household with happy dogs, because the breeder was not KC reg...


I'd be careful using BYB/hobby breeder in the same context. Around here hobby breeders are the ideal and are opposite BYB in that they are small scale breeders involved in the fancy.


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## BambiDog (Apr 24, 2011)

Sorry... I know there are grey areas in this subject, but could you illustrate the difference?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Katie you cannot join a poodle forum and expect people to support your decision to purchase a doodle. It would be the exception not the rule IMO


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Katie you cannot join a poodle forum and expect people to support your decision to purchase a doodle. It would be the exception not the rule IMO


I don't! 

I simply tried to answer the question why....and that was only because people kept asking it. I was trying to be helpful. I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought people wanted an answer. i did not realise the questions were rhetorical.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

BambiDog said:


> Sorry... I know there are grey areas in this subject, but could you illustrate the difference?


Hobby breeders are what most reputable, trustworthy breeders are. They breed to the breed standard, health test, and breed on a very small scale (only a couple litters a year). 

IMO, a backyard breeder is someone that just has a couple of dogs that aren't health tested, titled, or anything else and just breeds them for the purpose of trying to sell the puppies for a profit. This is usually small-medium scale. 

A puppy mill is basically a large scale BYB. They can have many, many dogs, don't health test, don't title, and generally don't take very good care of their dogs. 

There are lots of other nuances and aspects involved, however, and this isn't conclusive.


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## BambiDog (Apr 24, 2011)

Thank you!
I know I clicked the thanks button, but that's a bit impersonal and I'd rather say thank you properly.
I'll definitely be more aware of these the next time I get a dog. Puppy mills are better known about now, but BYBs don't seem to be talked about much (outside of doggy circles in the general public). Most people get their dogs from BYBs by the sound of things around here...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I was a hobby breeder of boxers a long time ago. I didn't do it for the money. I did it because I wanted to produce a really great boxer. I only bred for a couple of years and then got out of it because of the AKC issues with handlers and all of that. I thought of myself as a good breeder because I made a huge deal out of socialization of my puppies and felt good about selling healthy dogs that were great representations of their breed.

Katie, I was curious why on earth anyone would pay money for a mixed dog. I appreciated your honest answer. I do hope if you ever get to the point where you are ready for another dog that you pay for a purebred or go to the rescue and get another mix. I also hope you have your doodle neutered. People buy purebred dogs, not mutts. Mutts are EVERYWHERE and, yes, loads of them make terrific pets. Not everyone has to have a purebred dog. People that do have purebred dogs like the way they look, like their breeds personalities. We know what they will be like when they are grown. With a mutt you never quite know what you'll get personality wise, but with a purebred you have a pretty good idea of the size and everything else. 

Because doodles vary so much in looks and personality, you can't know what you'll get. They also have a lot of coat issues. My groomer has become very popular now and has just instituted the practice of not grooming doodles because their hair is so impossible. It matts too easily because of the mixture of poodle hair and lab or golden hair. Poodle coats already take a lot of maintenance. Why make it worse?

For the record: I have met many really nice pitbulls. I have also met a ton of terrible, viscous ones. Pitbulls are wonderful with people, but they were bred to kill other dogs, so many are terrible with other dogs. Poorly bred pitbulls go from the innate breed trait of meaness to other dogs and can translate that to people. Well bred pits are some of the sweetest dogs to a human there are. Would I ever own one? Nope. But, I can see the niceness in a wellbred one.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Of course he will be neutered! I was going to have it done between 5 and 6 months (because that is what the vet recommended when I asked). But reading on this forum has made me think I should wait a little longer? In fact that was one of my questions I was going to ask soon.

I brush Ruff every. single. day. He still has puppy fluff though. Barney had hair that matted at the puff of the breeze, so we kept him shaved fairly short. We will do the same with Ruff if necessary, but we don't know what hair he will get yet.

Just a question....please don't be angry, I really do want to know....if a person does health testing and temperament testing,and proper socialisation, and breed labradoodles because they love them and want to make them into a wonderful dog, and is not in it for the money, and maybe even looses money (because breeding pups is an expensive business) then is that still bad?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would pay for a mongrel when so many in shelters need homes.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Katie I think your question is fair, and I'm pulled in both directions...
but people that breed these mixes aren't breeding with an ideal in mind, otherwise they would try and establish a breed and not continue breeding 1 Lab to 1 Poodle...they would at least make attempts at breeding strictly TOO doodles to try and achieve something concrete and consistent (though I've seen a few breeders doing this...and I still wouldn't consider them conscientious breeders v.v; )

(I just saw a link posted somewhere >.> that I thought answers your question)

Creating a New Breed

The unfortunate thing about doodles is there really isn't a drive to step beyond the initial mixes and try and establish an actual breed


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## DonnaM (Aug 1, 2011)

Back in 1983, as a young woman newly on my own, (I'm a few months away from being 50 now), I was in search of my first dog, a German Shepherd. I went to a pet shop, but they didn't have any Shepherds, (thank God), so I turned to what I believed was the only other way...the newspaper ads. After calling a woman who confirmed she had a puppy, I drove over and picked up the dog from what I now know was a BYB. Yes, I would have purchased the puppy from the pet shop, but not because I wante to support some horrid puppy mill, but instead because I didn't know there was any problem with what I was doing or how to do it differently. I loved that Shepherd every bit as much as I love the poodle I have now. I spent thousands on her health issues, including a new hip. I never heard from the breeder, but I did't know I should expect to have any contact with the woman. Over the years I became enlightened and now wouldn't even dream of supporting those that I believe to have unscupulous breeding methods. Still, looking back, the day in 1983 that I walked into the pet shop, I walked in every bit the loving dog guardian, with evey bit the hope that I would be lucky to get a good dog, I just simply didn't know there was a different way. I welcome the people with mixed breed dogs, including those that have purchased from pet shops. I cringe, but welcome the people who ask questions about feeding extemely poor kibble diets. Years ago, I fed Purina Puppy Chow and Alpo, not because I didn't care, but because I saw it advertised on TV and didn't know there was any problem. I hope that through reading the posts, these people can become enlightened as I did years ago. I came to this forum not only to learn from others, but also to pass on my own knowledge.


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## DonnaM (Aug 1, 2011)

Katie said:


> Just a question....please don't be angry, I really do want to know....if a person does health testing and temperament testing,and proper socialisation, and breed labradoodles because they love them and want to make them into a wonderful dog, and is not in it for the money, and maybe even looses money (because breeding pups is an expensive business) then is that still bad?


As mentioned by, I believe Keithsomething, the biggest issue with doodles is that they tend not to be bred doodle to doodle but instead lab, (or other) to poodle. In this situation some puppies turn out more lab-like and others more like poodles. There is no stability and you never really know what character and physical or health traits you are going to get. There are even issues with mixing a miniature poodle and standard poodle. The puppies will look like poodles, but which variety, which set of health issues will these puppies be at risk for?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I think Keith was close to answer your question. Establishing a new breed is fine, but in order to do that you need to establish a standard for that breed. Then everyone who breeds must do their best to reach that perfect dog. Over time you can develop a nice dog with consistent strengths that define it as a separate breed. Right now that is not happening. The reason is that unless you breed a poodle to a golden or a lab or whatever, the puppies get more and more mutt like the further the generations go. There is NO consistency unless you breed a pure poodle to a pure something else. They COULD take a doodle and breed to a doodle and try to establish a breed and try to get a consistent look and personality. That is tough. People are breeding doodles willy nilly because there is money in them thar dogs. That's why they are breeding them.
It makes me sick.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would pay for a mongrel when so many in shelters need homes.


Just to try and answer this question.

In August 2010, we rescued a puppy, probably lab/hunterway mix, but to be honest who knows. She looked mostly like a large lab. She had no history (box on doorstep in the night job).

In the early hours of September 4th 2011 we had a 7.1 earthquake. Many things, including the puppy, were tossed hither and thither. She had a limp briefly after this but we did not have a working vet, (due to the quake, we had no power, water or sewage either but that is another story) By the time we had a vet again she had stopped limping.

A regular check up showed a weak heart, a murmur.

She was a quiet dog, very still for a puppy, didn't play, but was very affectionate. Liked to sit still with her head in my lap. In the morning she was reluctant to come out of her crate.

On the 22nd February 12.51pm our lives changed forever. A shallow 6.3 earthquake devastated my city. Jess was out of her mind and tried to hurdle the 6 foot fences in our garden. She jumped and fell, jumped and fell.
My husband was out of town (camping on the banks peninsula with 30 ten year olds) my son was at school. Two daughters in the city centre. One daughter txted me. She was out HER SISTER WAS STILL IN THE BUILDING. No more txts came through. I tried and tried. Son got through. "All out of school, some hurt. I'm OK. Please come"
Still no more word from the girls.
I tried to get Jess in the car. She hid under a bush and dug in all 4 paws. Remember we are having CONSTANT aftershocks during this time, many over 5.
I left Jess.
I had to get to my kids. I left the dog in the yard.

I set off for the town centre, the radio on, buildings down in the city, people daed and trapped, cellphone service down. The mayor came on the radio. Calm talk, but serious. it included the information the they had lost touch with the Banks Peninsula, and were very concerned as initial thoughts were that the quake came from there.

So hubby on the Peninsula, daughter maybe trapped, another daughter in the city and son at school.

I will cut the rest of this awful day short. The girls made it to friends on the undamaged side of the city, who got them out that night....the one who had been trapped was badly shocked. Son and I got home at 7.30pm.

Jess was still in the garden, but hurt, her back legs were bad. We had no water, power, sewage, no car because I had to abandon it and walk home. And of course no vet.
The emergency lasted 17 days. Hubby made it home after 3 and got car on 5th day. Jess stopped limping again by the third or fourth day. We got power after 17 days, water after 5 weeks, and sewage after 5 months.

Jess got worse again.
She had severe hip dysplasia in both hips (in effect no hips) and elbow dysplasia in both front legs. She had a weak heart, making surgery risky. We put her on very strong painkillers, and she still suffered.
We had her euthanized at 9 months of age. I still don't know if we made the right decision. The vet said she would have been in pain for the rest of her life. She cried when she got up, and whimpered even when lying in front of the fire. Life was so difficult and making this decision made it harder still.

We decided to get another dog. I checked the shelters, but was wary this time. And as before all the dogs were pitt/staffy crosses. so back to the local paper. And a labradoodle.

A week before he came home, and after we were committed with had another 6.3. This also brought down many more buildings but as the city centre is a no go zone, little harm was done (2 workers trapped but

CRAP ANOTHER ONE!
BIG BUT WE STILL HAVE POWER. GOT TO GO.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Ok, I'm Ok, no word from the girls yet. Son Ok.

Dog Ok although he freaked and ran out the house. he is now hiding in his crate.

I'm sorry i cannot finish my story. Maybe another day.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Is everything okay? Did you all just have another earthquake?


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## DonnaM (Aug 1, 2011)

Katie said:


> Ok, I'm Ok, no word from the girls yet. Son Ok.
> 
> Dog Ok although he freaked and ran out the house. he is now hiding in his crate.
> 
> I'm sorry i cannot finish my story. Maybe another day.


I sure hope that everything is okay with you and your family.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I would've just said "You should probably neuter your mutts."


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Outwest- your Bonnie puppy is beautiful and I do not think there is anyone on this forum who thinks otherwise..the 'tough it out' discussion you are referring to was while ago and had some legitimacy because knowledgeable breeders here offered valid reasons why mixing miniatures with standards, wasn't, in their opinion, appropriate.I have no opinion to give because I am not knowledgable on the this issue in the least bit..but other than that one huge discussion- there is no other controversy regarding lovely Bonnie; we all agree that Bonnie is perfect I don't even think she is too small- I love her size! 
As for the doodle controversy- we are not castigating the dogs who didn't ask to be bred, but the breeders who are out to make a quick buck and do nothing to give back to the poodle breed.. I see a lot of doodles here in my town- and they seem to be de rigueur for the people that live in Mc Mansions, and who are willing to pay HUGE amounts of money for these mixed breeds. I can't explain it any other way as that they are looking for 'designer dogs', and haven't given the issue much thought..sadly, if you look on Petfinders here you will find soo many doodles that you could have your pick in a heartbeat; but you'll not find a ton of standard poodles. Why are there so many abandoned doodles then? Don't the breeders care what happens to them?
That is why I have such a negative opinion of them.. but your puppy, Katie- is gorgous, and of course you ought to love him with all your heart Who wouldn't??


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm back. All is well. Two quakes plus another smaller aftershock. 4.7 and and 4.0 but shallow 5km (about 3 miles) deep and less than 5 km from my house. Very very shaky. Not too much fallen over though, mostly just stuff like the washing up. mind you a lot of my stuff now lives on the floor!

School is back inside, hubby has rung in to say all well, and heard from son and one daughter. 

Ruff did not like those at all. Nor did I. I don't know how much more of this I can take. I'll feel better when last daughter txts in.

Sorry about this turning up in a debate about doodles/poodles! I don't expect i will be here much for the rest of the day, just off to clear up now, and then I'll fetch son from school instead of the bus. Its not I don't care about this fascinating debate, but I have other things on my mind right now.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Katie said:


> I'm back. All is well. 4.7 and and 4.0 but shallow 5km (about 3 miles) deep and less than 5 km from my house. Very very shaky. Not too much fallen over though, mostly just stuff like the washing up. mind you a lot of my stuff now lives on the floor!
> 
> School is back inside, hubby has rung in to say all well, and heard from son and one daughter.
> 
> ...


Oh glad you are okay!  A 4.0 and 4.7 are just baby earthquakes.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Oh glad you are okay!  A 4.0 and 4.7 are just baby earthquakes.


Yeah...they are quake number 7465 and 7466 since September 4th 2010, so we are kinda used to them. They were MM6 though so lively enough. I think they were particularly 'rattling' because one was so close, and both were so shallow.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I know about earthquakes. Yours are much more frequent than ours, but a big one can still rattle our nerves. We haven't had a large one in a few years, just little whammo shakers. 

Ruff is very cute. I am not saying he isn't. Next time, check out a purebred poodle. You won't be sorry.

papoodles, Thanks. I know what I bought when I bought her. I had whittled breeders down to two. I was deciding between the other litter from two AKC champion parents with all AKC champion lines and my puppies litter from multiple champions in performance, lots of foreign dogs (and yes that mini) plus AKC and UKC conformation dogs with two UKC grand champion parents. I looked at both litters and investigated both pedigrees and parents. My puppy was just plain better quality from a more diverse and rounded background than the ones from the two champion litter. I have no regrets. If I decide to get another standard, and I kind of want to, I wouldn't hesitate to make the same decision. Oh, and I am thrilled mine has hit 21 inches tall. She may get into that average standard size yet.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

First, glad you and yours are ok, Katie. Never been in an earthquake, never want to!

I think at the root of the antipathy of poodle people for doodle lovers is the unspoken opinion that poodles aren't good enough.

It certainly offends me when I see doodle breeders advertising their crosses as having all the (good) traits of the poodle.

There are lots of other reasons, the deceptive practices and claims of doodle breeders, the exhorbitant prices they seem to think they can charge for a cross, the breeding of poor quality examples of each breed in the cross, etc., but for me, the heart of it is the unspoken message "look! you can have all the good qualities of a poodle without having to have one of those weird-looking **** dogs!"


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

First, I want to say I'm glad Katie and family are safe. What a terrible and frightening experience to live through. Many positive thoughts headed your way.

I’ve broken my post into three messages because I’m wordy 

I can understand why people buy doodles (or other mixed breeds). There is something appealing in having the best of two (or more) breeds. Unfortunately, things don’t always work out that way. And I certainly understand Katie’s decision based her experience with her family’s poodle/lab mix. I think that childhood dogs have a huge impact on future breed selection. I’d never want a cocker based on my parents’ dog, but my husband just adored his shepherd and I imagine we’ll have one someday. 

I've shared some of this before, but I'll repeat here since it's relevant. My husband was gung-ho about doodles after meeting a client's dog. What we read about them and what he experienced was very appealing: friendly, biddable, intelligent, low to no shedding - everything that we wanted in a dog. Still, the whole notion of a "designer dog" didn't sit right with me. (But I'll admit to having weird ideas about things - I won't buy groceries in a drug store or lawn furniture in a grocery store...)

I did more research both about dog breeding in general and about doodles specifically. I learned what separated a reputable breeder from a backyard breeder. I learned about health testing and titles. I learned about pedigrees and breed clubs.

I found that doodle breeding programs weren't reliable and breeders often less than ethical. The pups could have any combination of breed-specific characteristics (all the good was just as likely as all the bad), many of the breeders weren't doing necessary health tests, and there was no way to "prove" their dogs and no standard to measure them against.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

In doing this research, I also found that standard poodles have wonderful qualities that made them seem like an ideal match for us. I certainly see JE-UK's point about the "unspoken opinion that poodles aren't good enough." Before learning more, I had many misconceptions about poodles. My previous experiences were with high-strung, yappy toys and minis that were likely the result of poor breeding and absent training. Not good representatives of the breed. Standards, in my mind, were just bigger high-strung, yappy dogs. I know soooo much more now.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I'll also say that I've learned a great deal about pet care, breeding, and breeders in the past few years. When we adopted our cat 16 years ago, I found her through a notice on a bulletin board in a grocery store. I thought taking her to the vet when she was sick and feeding her Purina cat chow was adequate (heck, good) care. I know now that my choices weren't the best. I'm not the same person I was 16 years ago; I've learned so much since then and choices I made then are very different from choices I'd make now. 

A few years ago I probably would have gotten a pup from a BYB because looking in the newspaper was what I knew (and shelters/rescues near us tend to be unreasonable and/or have breeds that don't suit us). Many, many people don’t take the time to do research into getting a dog. They jump in without considering finding a good fit or understanding all that adding a family pet entails. I'm thankful for people on forums like this one who are so willing to share their knowledge.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

JEUK, Love your new avatar. I am going to have to get one. I think you are right. What's wrong with a poodle? Everything people say is great about doodles are POODLE traits! What the heck? 

coockieface, I am glad you didn't get a doodle. The doodle may have been like your clients dog, or may have been a high strung dog that matts. LOL

A person can clip a poodle into any cut they like! You don't have to do pom poms. A very nice guy at the dog park has a standard that he clips without any poms at all and that dog looks great. I love the poms, but I understand how so many people don't.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> First, glad you and yours are ok, Katie. Never been in an earthquake, never want to!
> 
> I think at the root of the antipathy of poodle people for doodle lovers is the unspoken opinion that poodles aren't good enough.
> 
> ...


I think this is part of it. Also, to me, a poodle is living history. There is only one reason that our poodles look and acts like the poodles that live hundreds of years ago: reputable breeders. These are the people who carefully breed to the standard, who guard the poodle's past and guide it into the future. When people breed whatever they want to willy nilly (poodle crosses, short-legged poodles, poodles with short muzzles) it takes away from our breed. I love poodles and I'd like to think that in 50 years I will still be able to find poodles that look like my poodle today. 

So many poorly bred poodles (including poodle mixes) also reflect poorly on our breed as a whole. Look how many people think poodles are high-strung, neurotic, yappy dogs with high-maintenance coats that NEED to be mixed with a Lab or golden or cocker to yield a stable dog... when in fact, so many doodles are high-strung and neurotic with coats that are much higher maintenance than a poodle coat. A well-bred poodle should not be yappy or high-strung. Neither should a well-bred Lab or golden. But dogs used in doodle breeding programs are rarely well bred (at least not what I would consider well bred). 
Also, I just think it’s a bad cross, especially the Lab-poodle cross. You’re taking a high-energy, slow-maturing Lab and mixing it with a highly intelligent poodle. Poodles are smart, but most have much more impulse control than Labs. When you mix a large dog with brains, lots of energy and a lack of impulse control you are really setting yourself up for a handful. Not ALL doodles, but I have met many like this. Just kind of hyper, in your face, ADD-type dogs.
Some doodles are really nice dogs, and some don’t shed, but there is a reason the shelters and rescues are filled with high-energy, untrained, matted doodles (at least where I live). They are not what they are advertised to be. It is not the fault of the dogs themselves. People buy them because they told they are hypoallergenic and don't shed. Well, that is very often not the case at all. They are told they are calm and laidback. Again not always true. What happens? They are given up.

How could anyone possibly know how a mixed breed will turn out anyway, especially a first generation cross? It is so unpredictable. I HATE how many doodle breeders say you will only get the best traits of a poodle and the best traits of the Lab. How can you SAY that? Where do the bad traits go? A puppy could inherit all the bad traits from both parents, or all the good ones. It is luck of how the genes turn out.
But it all comes back to the fact that doodle breeders are making money by claiming poodles aren’t enough on their own (I imagine Lab and golden lovers hate the fact that their dogs aren’t considered “enough” on their own). We love our breed. I think poodles have it all. There is nothing in the world I would change about poodles and I hate that people are out there using our beloved breed to churn out puppies with false promises of being the perfect dogs—all to just make money.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

why do people buy labradoodles or golden doodles? because standard poodles have a reputation of being frou frou.

look at them in the ring. they are in the non sporting ring and all hair sprayed up and their clip exaggerated and only rich women w/ hermes bags want them.

now a labradoodle or a goldendoodle or whateveroodle is a man's dawg. they come from hunting stock (i KNOW STANDARD POODLES WERE ORIGINALLY BRED AS A HUNTING DOG), but we lost that.

now they are seen as fifi frou frou or whatever.

poodle people here know. we try to educate, but how many people have you met who have been surprised at how cool a spoo is when they meet them? how many people have you met who are surprised that our spoos are not frou frou?

that's why.

my husband never expected he'd be the dad of 2 standard poodles. he loves them just as much as our labx.


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## kanatadoggroomer (Jan 24, 2010)

Sorry, but my blood pressure rose 40 points when I realized there was a doodle person on a poodle forum. There are plenty of doodle forums for doodle owners to haunt. 

To put it bluntly, I detest purposeful doodle breeding, actually any mutt breeding. IMO, breeding should ONLY be done by professionals in an attempt to improve their breed standard and there is no way in hell doodle breeders will ever achieve that goal of having a "breed standard" recognized by the AKC, CKC or whatever reputable dog registry you want. 

I pass many doodles in my local off-leash park and they invariably comment that "oh, here is your cousin" to my purebred poodles. My reply "look, your dog is a poor country cousin" shuts them up quick.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You said what many of us wanted to say, but are too polite to do so. I don't blame Katie, I blame the doodle breeders that are so numerous they swamp the internet with their puppies so nice people get sucked into the fray and pay for a hyperactive, large mutt. Don't people realize what they are buying?! 

There are a lot of doodles in the dog park and they come frequently- probably because they are so active they need to run, run, run. Only one is not a hyper maniac of a dog and it is mixed with a laid back golden. My mother taught me if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all, so I ignore them and their owners. There are other poodle/golden/lab owners in the crowd. We all ignore the doodles, so the doodle owners stick with each other. It's too bad and very clicky. I wish the doodles didn't anger me so much, but they honestly do. I know I am not alone when another poodle/golden/lab owner sits next to me and makes rude comments about the doodles.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

kanatadoggroomer said:


> Sorry, but my blood pressure rose 40 points when I realized there was a doodle person on a poodle forum. There are plenty of doodle forums for doodle owners to haunt..


kanatadoggroomer, I respectfully disagree with this statement and think it was uncalled for and unkind. Katie and Ruff are very welcome here and I know most other forum members would agree with me.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

kanatadoggroomer said:


> Sorry, but my blood pressure rose 40 points when I realized there was a doodle person on a poodle forum. There are plenty of doodle forums for doodle owners to haunt.
> 
> To put it bluntly, I detest purposeful doodle breeding, actually any mutt breeding. IMO, breeding should ONLY be done by professionals in an attempt to improve their breed standard and there is no way in hell doodle breeders will ever achieve that goal of having a "breed standard" recognized by the AKC, CKC or whatever reputable dog registry you want.
> 
> I pass many doodles in my local off-leash park and they invariably comment that "oh, here is your cousin" to my purebred poodles. My reply "look, your dog is a poor country cousin" shuts them up quick.


Beautifully said.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I also welcomed Katie to stay, but I mentioned she would have to be tough, get used to being ignored somewhat and that there were tons of doodle forums where she wouldn't have to put up with doodle trash talk like she will invariably hear on this forum. If I recall, she thought it was the POODLE part of her puppy that was causing it to be overactive! LOL. I think we cleared that up pretty well. It is not Katie or her puppy that is the problem. 

I didn't understand why a doodle owner would be the least bit interested in a poodle forum when there is so much animosity towards doodles here - unless she wanted to find out why. I think she has found out why.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I very much welcome Katie and Ruff on this forum. Ruff is 3/4 poodle, and I am sure that Katie can find lots of valuable information here. I also admire the level headed approach that Katie has in explaining her choices and decisions. She never gets huffy or rude. There is something to be said for her in that respect. I don't think there is any reason whatsoever that she shouldn't be able to come onto this forum and ask questions and add to discussion. I think that she understands how and why most people here feel the way they do about doodles, and that she most likely won't change any of our opinions on that.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

I admire katie for sticking around and educating us, the snobbish uber-reserarching type that we are. I am surprised by some who insist on rudeness, shouting words like MUTT at her in every post. I think she gets it. Actually, im certain she does. 

When you look at places like doodlesmooches (you know who i mean), you can't blame the woman for escaping the idiotic doodle.forums (where owners do no wrong and their terrible rebellious dog is the result of the BREEDER or TRAINER or GROOMER. 

I dont see the point of $3000 doodles, but i have built a lovely clientele of them by owning a gorgeous spoo puppy and understanding the need of doodles to be LIKED before they'll behave... very much like insecure cockers. 

I researched the heck out of Bonzai because i had so many things to factor in. I may roll my eyes at the amount my client paid for an Aus. Labradoo, but i adore her puppy and consider him one of my FAVORITE clients. Why? Because he's well-behaved, socialized, trained, and so very sweet. He's a bit chicken for the dryer, but will allow a complete hand - dry and stands like a champ.for scissoring. 

I may not agree with doodles, but cannot.fault an owner like Katie, who may not have researched like we did, but is taking excellent care of the dog she has chosen. To the point of joining a semi-hostile forum and sticking around to LEARN from the experience.of others, while graciously ignoring the unkind comments hurled.at her. 

Hurray for you, katie, for the research you're doing now and the skin of armour you must have.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Okay, why am I feeling guilty again? Point taken, FunkyPuppy, but why would doodle forums be any different than this one? It's just people talking about their dogs like they do here. There are so many of them that I would think there were some good ones. Is 'mixed breed' a kinder term? 

Katie has tough skin, I agree. Her complete innocence when she joined, not realizing the animosity poodle/lab/golden people feel towards doodles was clear. Many tried to be kind, some took a jab, but many just ignored her. I don't think anyone is being snobby. People are just being fiercly protective of the breed they love that is being watered down left and right by doodle this and doodle that. Why do they always pick the poodle to mix things with anyway? Because the poodle is a terrific dog, that's why. 

Katie, I am so sorry if your feelings were hurt. My feelings got hurt here once, too. I was feeling bad for offending the dog park guy and annoyed at the doodles and confused about why I was both annoyed and feeling guilty. I came here because there are poodle people who might understand why and I wouldn't feel like such a putz. I did not intend to offend anyone when I posted about the doodle/poodle interaction at the dog park. Honestly, I didn't think of there being a doodle member, like how I didn't realize the dog park guy was the doodles owner. 

Your puppy is going to be a great family dog because he has you, who cared enough to go on line and talk to other dog people on the other side of the world. Your kids will grow up with a dog and that is something all children should have. It is not Ruff's fault or your fault that there is a huge doodle craze right now. It would be nice if you called him a poode mix, though.


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## lilypoo (Jul 25, 2011)

> What's wrong with a poodle? Everything people say is great about doodles are POODLE traits! What the heck?


I think poodles have a bit of a negative stigma. Just like the man who said poodles are "sissy" dogs...LOL. A lot of people feel negatively toward them, usually for silly reasons. Men think they're girly. People think they're frou-frou and delicate. Some people think they are hyper.

I briefly looked at poodle-crosses when breed-shopping and quickly came to the that realization that all the traits I like are POODLE traits.

I lingered on Maltipoos the longest...both are less-allergenic, don't shed, etc. I once had a Maltese who was sweet but my family has had several incredible poodles....seemed like a no-brainer!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

katie!
Welcome! you and your lovely pup are welcome here in my opinion. yes, i'm a bit of a poodle snob. i love my 100% poodles.

BUT!

(yes, there is a but)

My girl, temperance is my heart dog and she's from less than stellar stock. her "breeder" was this woman who bought a black male and white female w/ no genetic testing done nor this or that nor shown them ... and they made babies. She sold the babies and i got my dog temperance from there. 

so i'm not too snobby


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

outwest said:


> Katie, I am so sorry if your feelings were hurt. My feelings got hurt here once, too. I was feeling bad for offending the dog park guy and annoyed at the doodles and confused about why I was both annoyed and feeling guilty. I came here because there are poodle people who might understand why and I wouldn't feel like such a putz. I did not intend to offend anyone when I posted about the doodle/poodle interaction at the dog park. Honestly, I didn't think of there being a doodle member, like how I didn't realize the dog park guy was the doodles owner.


I don't think you have any reason to feel guilty about what you believe in. There are poodle people here who DO understand exactly what you mean, because I'm sure we all have experienced similar situations. I think that Katie, or any other doodle person that comes here, should be welcome members of this knowledgeable forum, but in coming here they do have to realize that the people here love the standard poodle, and that most do not approve of breeding doodles. I don't think Katie should have been offended by your original post, because this is a poodle forum, but I also don't think it is necessary for some to be so rude to her (not saying you were rude, only that some of the responses here were uncalled for). I don't actually think Katie ever said that the post offended her, she was only trying to offer up her answer to the question of "why" and I think we should all be able to accept her reasoning, even if we don't necessarily agree with it. 

Back to the original post, I don't think you need to feel guilty about what you said to the doodle owner. As I stated before, if he really thought they were so great, he would have been more than happy to sit and have a conversation with you about it and try to convince you why you were wrong and his dogs were great. I don't get all huffy when someone says my poodles are "frou frou". I politely engage them with reason why poodles are awesome, athletic, and not frou frou in the least.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I also sometimes think that "positive reinforcement" goes alot further when it comes to similar discussions on this topic. Positively reinforcing why poodles ARE all the things we know they are may set better with some than coming down on them. Just my opinion. After all, it works for our poodles, doesn't it? I think keeping the communication open especially to those who are curious or looking for knowledge is another way to spread the word. Just my opinion.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Outwest: I apologize unreservedly for making you feel guilty. After re reading my first post I can see that I implied that you, personally, were rude. That was not my intention, and I am sorry for the hurt I have caused you.

I have learnt a lot from this forum and I want to say thank you to you all for the help and advise you have given me. 

It is with your help that I have gone, in less than a month, from a pup who growled over a bone to one who cheerfully handed over a cooked bone found in the domain without a murmur.

It is here I learnt about positive training and clicker training, and these are producing wonderful results in Ruff, and in myself (I'm sneakily trying it with a teenager!)

I have learnt all about a new sport I can do with Ruff, and that will get me out of the house. 7 and a half thousand earthquakes in a year had sapped my confidence, and before I got Ruff I was going out less and less. Since Ruff I am out of the house twice a day rain or shine.

I have learnt all about breeding and bloodlines, about testing and health. I learnt that doodles are bad.

One thing in particular I am very very grateful for is the heads up about talking to poodle people in real life. If I had not come here I might have spoken to them on the beach or in the domain. Now if I see a poodle coming I beat a hasty retreat. Once a woman came up to me before i could get away, and asked about Ruff, I said he was a mutt. She said he was cute and she was sure there was poodle in him. maybe he was some kind of doodle! I went mmmhhhh and asked how old her poodle was and how was he in the quakes and made my escape.

In my very first post i explained Ruff was a doodle and explained why i was here, and asked if it was OK. I put the fact that Ruff was a doodle in my signature so that i was not hiding it from people. I was told that it was Ok to be here and there were many people here with poodle mixes. Sadly, i was not told that they were only welcome if they had rescued their doodles.

I honestly do understand that people here believe poodles are best, and that is why it is a poodle forum. I have never asked anyone to think that getting a doodle is a good idea.

However I did want to try and point out that not everyone is from a deeply doggy background. I wanted to explain that there are many reasons for getting a dog and many ways of acquiring one. I tried to tell my story, including Jess...and talking about Jess still hurts....to explain that not all doodle owners are ignorant, stupid, neglectful of their dogs, or too unkind to consider rescuing a dog. (That is why I told Jess's story)

I have many many times read comments that go something to the effect of....I just don't understand why people get a doodle....so I thought I would tell you my story. How I ended up with a doodle.

Thank you all for the help and advice you have given an inexperienced dog owner. It has been invaluable, and I shall always be indebted to this forum for that learning.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Well I've enjoyed talking training with u Katie. And hope to do more. 

Some of the posts kinda bothered me too. 'Cos I knew we had a dedicated and loving owner of a Poodle cross here in the forum. 

I took it as some people having valid opinions and maybe the inclination to vent. Only that....

But maybe we can still respond to 3/4 of yr posts, eh?


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

Katie, it makes me so sad that you have to post something like this here, it sounds so final. I wouldn't blame you for not wanting to post here anymore, but i do hope you still watch the threads. There's so much to be learned here. I'm angry that you've been made to feel that your dog isn't 'worthy'. That you would feel the need to run if you saw a spoo puppy on the same trail, like your sweet dog is something to be ashamed of. My Bonzai comes to work with me three times a week and nothing makes her more excited than when a Poodle or Doodle walks in the door. It's like she knows!

If i saw you on a walk, i would gladly say hello to you and your foofball puppy, ask if you would be interested in playdates or walking together sometime, and walk away glad that i had met someone with a puppy of similar age, energy level, and breed. 

You know what? Not everyone here has a poodle from show lines or from even a very good breeder! There have been mill puppies purchased online and puppies purchased from vans in parking lots, parents and areas where puppies were raised never seen. I dont think you should be made to feel bad about the dog you love and have now, and the reality is, nobody's strong opinion against doodles is going to change your dog into a purebred poodle! So please stay! I've been on doodle boards out of curiousity and the amount of misinformation is outstanding. Im glad you're here!


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

Double


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

The difference between this forum (and ones like it) and the doodle forums I've visited is ASTRONOMICAL!! Funky hit it right on the head, most of the owners there weren't lead into a knowing position like most of the older posters here were by responsible breeders giving them advice and leaving a VERY educational stamp on this forum...they just talk about how cute their dogs are and a few of them have been ploys for doodle breeders to sell more dogs v.v;

I knew ZIPPO about poodles, and dog health in general when I first joined this forum! But because there was a dedicated group of people posting consistently that did know information I have come to learn a wee bit (then add in all of the email, telephone, and personal conversations I've had with the highest caliber of breeders) 
I feel this forum can be an asset to ALL dog owners not just poodles owners...It may be a dedicated "poodle" forum but I don't see a problem welcoming doodle owners that are willing to listen to our POV like Katie has so graciously! (And I've greatly appreciated her POV on buying her pup!)

The wealth of information from training to vaccine protocol knows no breed...


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

I also liked reading "Why I Bought a Doodle" and i think it is a very valuable story for every one of us who has wondered "why?". I've referred many owners of Poodles, Doodles, PWDs, and even Bichons here because of the knowledge of coat care, the training and behavior aspects, and oh my gosh, the FEEDING KNOWLEDGE.heck, Pinky's experience with the Internet Mill has been posted more than once on my FB, and i've sent that link to dozens of friends looking online to 'order' a puppy.

How sad if they visited on my referral and were chased off because they had a mix! Im thankful that katie talks about BRUSHING her doodle, im sure her groomer loves having her as a client. There is NO forum more filled with Groomer Bashing than a doodle forum. "They skinned my dog! Never visit a groomer!" Is the average grooming post.


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## DonnaM (Aug 1, 2011)

I welcome hearing from anyone who is interested in sharing knowledge about our beloved dogs. Katie, I hope you choose to stay and become comfortable posting again, knowing that you will not be ignored.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Katie said:


> I have learnt all about breeding and bloodlines, about testing and health. I learnt that doodles are bad.
> 
> One thing in particular I am very very grateful for is the heads up about talking to poodle people in real life. If I had not come here I might have spoken to them on the beach or in the domain. Now if I see a poodle coming I beat a hasty retreat. Once a woman came up to me before i could get away, and asked about Ruff, I said he was a mutt. She said he was cute and she was sure there was poodle in him. maybe he was some kind of doodle! I went mmmhhhh and asked how old her poodle was and how was he in the quakes and made my escape.


Katie I felt very sad to read this it is simply not true, I have been hesitant to speak up here for risk of offending people when I am very much a newbie in this forum but now I feel I must. 
The anti doodle sentiment expressed here is not felt by every poodle owner and definitely not by the majority of NZ poodle owners. I have clients who own both and love both equally. I know most of the nzkc poodle breeders by reputation if not in actual life and can say the same about doodle breeders and what I have learnt is I DO NOT LIKE PUPPY FARMERS no matter what they're breeding and yes some nzkc breeders fall into that category too.

I am always happy to talk to doodle owners when I'm out with my spoos and if as a groomer I cringe a bit when I see matted doodles I try not to let the owner see as it's my issue not theirs and poodle owners here are often just as guilty.
most poodle owners here are pet owners not show people and really don't care what breed or mix you've got as long as it's freindly.

As for those of you who have been so critical of Katies choice we are a small country and spoos are not a popular breed. We waited a long time for each of the spoos we've bought and none have fit all three neccessary criteria (titled parents, health tested & temperament tested) we got the best we could out of what was available.
I don't believe any spoo breeder in NZ meets all these requirements and I wish we had as much choice as you overseas do (Yes I know we can import but it's very expensive and requires lengthy quarantine which is beyond the ability of most pet owners)
So try not to be so harsh in your judgement things are very different here, Katie got a pet who was raised in a loving home that had health tested parents, better that than neurotic puppy farmed purebreds which she could very easily have ended up with.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I was actually wondering when she said the availability of nice puppies was so limited that she had to go on line to find anything other than a pit or bully type dog. I thought at the time maybe there was a supply issue with nice dogs there. Here the pounds have a decent variety and if not, the rescue organizations alway have nice dogs. 

Anntig, maybe you need to test your poodles and provide some high quality spoos for your country. The spoos in your post are absolutely lovely, honestly. They have some substance in the rears and aren't so leggy as to be unable to preform physically. They remind me of the European spoos, which I favor conformationally. 

Katie - hang around. I didn't realize the doodle forums were so bad. There are so MANY doodle forums, I just couldn't see how they could all be poor.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Katie, you are very welcome here, as others have said. 

And don't avoid poodle people when out walking ... I run into doodles all the time and have yet to insult a doodle owner :smile:. In fact, I make a point to ask who they use as a groomer or recommend one ("what! I have to groom this dog?!?") and point them towards a good local trainer. And Vasco seems to include at least some doodles in his Poodle Recognition Software; he prefers playing with poodles.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Lol Outwest I was trying to work out out what spoos you were talking about than I realised how the words in my siggy could be interpreted, it's all the one boy- my Shadow how he is and how I wish his coat was.
Thank you for the compliment though I am somewhat biased but I think he's gorgeous.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Katie- you are very welcome IMHO. I have 3 mutt dogs & 3 pure breeds. 1 Chinese Crested, 1 Spoo & 1 OT/Mini. I think in the US my 2 largest problems with the "doodles" is that 1. it is a money grubber market here. The Doodles cost from $1,500 on up to over $3,000 & that is just plain WRONG but the people doing the crosses have people willing to pay that money. 2. The new owners are usually blatantly lied too ablut grooming. I am a groomer by profession & I cringe when I used to do large breeds & a "doodle" would not have been brushed or seen a groomer for a year & then wonder why their "fluffy" dog was shaved down. I ALWAYS save the coat & ALWAYS tell the owner I am going to shave down the coat & hand the OWNER a comb to try & get through the coat. I no longer do larger dogs BUT I hate the websites that claim low shed/no shed + NO GROOMING. In all honesty the "doodle" on the whole requires MORE grooming than a Poodle. 
These are my beefs with the "doodle" owners in the US. There are plenty ending up in shelters, often times though being whisked away by "breed rescue". I do understand why you purchased your dog & if you are happy with your decision then it is the right decision. I hope you stay on this forum because I love talking dog. I have learnt a great deal about Poodle health on this forum.


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*I have neither a doodle or a SP........yet. But, if I could adopt a Doodle, I would do so in a heartbeat...I checked out Petfinder and tho there are literally hundreds and hundreds of Doodles out there up for adoption, none are close my state, let alone my town. My decision is to purchase a purebred pup comes down to this. I will not pay big bucks for a fad...like two or three times the amount I'd pay for a pup from health tested parents. 

That said, I've met a number of Doodles and have yet to meet one that I didn't like (course I suffer from "any dog love"....an compulsive malady that draws me to any breed or mix ...I love them all).

Katie...what I picked up in this thread is not a dislike for Doodles, but the hype of those who breed them...and like I said, there are hundreds and hundreds in shelters across the US, because the dog didn't live up to the hype either in temperment of coat/dander....and that makes me sad. Again....I haven't met one I didn't like a LOT.

p *


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Hello again!

Thank you for all your support for me and Ruff. I am surprised at how big a business doodles seem to have become in the US.

I am a member of a doodle forum where I am considered an experienced and knowledgeable owner! 
I think this is due to owning a doodle before they were invented, or maybe because I say things like "its a good idea to brush the dog!" and "how about getting a trainer" (You mean we need to train the dog? i thought they were intuitive!!!) I went through many doodle forums to find that one, the first 3 I joined were fronts for puppy mills....

As I am far from experienced or knowledgeable I branched out to general doggy forums, lab and poodle forums. And I liked this one best, because you are so experienced and you can get help here from everyone on anything. 

I understand now that a dislike of puppy mills and indiscriminate breeding does not necessarily equate to a dislike to a doodle individual. Also I know there are good doodle owners and bad doodle owners (and good collie owners and bad collie owners and good newfoundaland owners and.....)

I hope to be a good dog owner. I love Ruff, I want to do the best for him. I hope to continue to learn (I love to learn!) and I shall continue to hang around. 

Anntig! Where are you? We are New Brighton. Is your house OK? And a groomer....my groomer is Victoria, but she lives in Bexley and is red zoned.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Hi Katie and welcome,

I was in the pet store with my mini poo earlier today and a mother with two young boys saw Angie. One of the boys pointed to Angie and said to his mom, "Oh look Mom, yuk, a pooooodle!" The mother didn't respond to, or tell her son that was rude. 

The dog on THEIR leash was a labradoodle, lol.... it seems being judged because of the type of dog you own can :argh: work both ways.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

minipoodlelover said:


> "Oh look Mom, yuk, a pooooodle!"


LOL, minipoodlelover. They don't say that around Tonka.  

'Coz mostly he's towering over them!


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

LOL, you tell 'em Tonka!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*what a heated discussion...*

Who would have thought this discussion would cause such a stir! Just adding my two cents, and I apologize if I repeat something that's already been mentioned...

I absolutely love all dogs no matter what breed. I have a problem with people who are behind the breed. No matter how you acquired your dog, it bugs me when people are ignorant to basic care and hygiene. Because poodles have a reputation for being "frou frou" people automatically know that this breed takes lots of grooming to look that way. Yet, mixed breeds such as doodles, because it has some lab or golden in there, they think you can just let them romp around and that's it! And why are the doodle's face so unkept?! I'm sure there are responsible doodle owners when it comes to the grooming department, but so far the ones I've seen, the face is a mess. It's really dirty, needs a trim, and the dog is MATTED. Maybe people just need to be educated more on mixed breed coat care, but the nonchalance towards it amazes me. What also bugs me is the people who have poodles but tell the groomer "Don't make my dog look like a poodle." Huh? But you know that's what you have... a poodle. And poodle owners aren't that innocent either, I've seen some poodles in need of a really good bath and trim. We need to stop perpetuating the stereotypes of poodles being fragile and sissy and doodles being hearty and manly.

My standard poodle right now has a short coat all over, I stopped shaving his face and feet; his ears, head, and tail are clipped down. EVERYONE asks me if he is a doodle. I mention he is a standard POODLE and they are surprised. I guess because he acts like a normal dog? I'm not sure what people expect from poodles, to be nervous wrecks and neurotic? I think poodle owners should educate doodle owners and vice versa instead of sneering at each other. When it comes down to it, they are both dogs, and the owners love their respective dogs very much.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

First, a word to *Katie*. I hope you don't leave this forum and I hope you know that you and Ruff are very welcome here. Yeah, there are "Doodle" forums out there but I for one am glad you chose to join the Poodle Forum. We're lucky to have you. And yes, I have an agenda. By being _here_, you can't help but learn just how wonderful purebred POODLES are!!! LOL Hopefully, continued exposure to enough positive poodle owners will result in your falling head over heels in love with the breed, as we all have. 

Second, I'm not a Doodle or designer dog fan because I'm a Poodle FANATIC. A little backstory: I'm a former Marine and a former federal narcotics agent. EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE from my family to my friends and colleagues laughed when I told them I was getting a poodle. "Sissy dog!" they said. I had done my research and learned that a mini/standard poodle was the dog for me. These same people laughed even harder when I said I wanted this poodle to run 10 miles with me, and just hang out. You know what? _Nobody _is laughing now. Alexander the Great (part of his registered name), my oversized purebred black miniature poodle, changed their minds. My family now has three poodles between them and everyone thinks Alex is the best dog on the planet. Back in his youth, he ran 10 miles with ease. He's smart, he's gorgeous and he's brilliant. He kept me going through rough times and made me laugh when I was down. There were times when I wanted to quit (running) and he wouldn't let me. He's a great dog and he's a POODLE. 

It bothers me that anyone would ruin a perfectly good poodle by crossing it with another (inferior  ) breed. I love labs, and I love goldens--they're great breeds. (I won't even mention the dozens of breeds now being crossed with my beloved poodle.) But poodles, labs, goldens...why tamper with perfection? With all the wonderful dogs in rescue, I don't understand why anyone would pay for a designer breed, especially when such a dog is the product of inferior representatives of each breed. Rescuing one is admirable though. Rescuing _any _dog is admirable. But I'm not going to hold Doodle-ownership against Katie or anyone else for that matter. She understands the issue at hand and shouldn't have to defend owning Ruff. 

As for Pit Bulls and staffies, I hesitate to state my opinion because I did so on another forum and my thoughts were referred to as "idiotic" (or words to that effect). Katie, I don't blame you one bit for not wanting a Pit/AST. My experience with this breed has been horrible, both on a professional and personal level. I was a prisoner in my own home for 9 months due to a neighbor's 70+ lb intact male pit bull that was always loose. I support restrictions on PBT/AST ownership because not everyone is equipped to handle this breed along with many other strong, working breeds (Cane Corso, Dogo Argentino, Rottie, etc.). I'm not calling for breed bans, but for responsible ownership, like classes, background checks, home checks, etc.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

It bothers me that anybody would ruin a perfectly GREAT breed like the poodle with a cross of any type, but I won't hold it against individual owners of any of these doodles.

I will say this. In many cases, by purchasing a doodle, the owner has judged the POODLE inferior for whatever reason. (Now who is the breed snob???) The poodle alone, without the cross, isn't "good enough" or "masculine enough" for their family. Never mind that their cross is half poodle; it's all "cool" because they've got that lab or goldie, etc. mix and they can therefore say they don't own a frou frou breed. Never mind that they know next to nothing about the poodle, or that their doodle concoction takes many of its best qualities - the ones they like so much - from the poodle.

So the poodle lover and the doodle buyer are already off to a rocky relationship. I've owned poodles my entire life, except for a brief period when my kids were extremely young. When we decided to get a dog, there was no choice for the males in the family - we were getting a poodle. My only concession to them was, to choose a black male mini pup, instead of the white I originally thought I would obtain. Somehow the black color seemed a little more masculine. I really didn't care what anybody else thought, because I KNEW from firsthand experience how amazing the poodle breed really is. 

Well, that black mini grew to be our entire family's best friend, and he interacted far more with my kids than the neighbors' labs and goldies. When he recently passed away, my sons and husband were all devastated. There was never any doubt we would obtain another poodle - and there were also no discussions about any other breed of dog. 

And as an added bonus, all my teenage sons' female friends make a huge fuss over Angie when they come to the house. My son living in college recently requested more pictures of her, because the girls on his floor were asking!:act-up:


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*research*

Many people say they've "done their research" before choosing their breed. I think part of the research should be to spend time with a poodle! It should be mandatory! I do wonder why some people specifically choose a poodle MIX, why not just get a poodle?

I never thought I'd ever end up with a poodle. I've been wanting a dog for years and looked at every breed. I considered the poodle but also held similar stereotypes that many people have. That is until I volunteered at a poodle rescue. I was there to groom the rescue dogs. Many were in bad shape. I went in with an open mind and after several visits I was HOOKED on poodles. I knew it was the breed for me. My husband did not want a poodle because he held the same misconceptions. Our dog is so great, he goes out of his way to tell people how awesome poodles are. It's funny because before we got our cats, he didn't like the idea of cats, now he loves them to death! I love when I see other poodles at the dogpark because, let's face it, poodle people are awesome too!

I never knew there was this 'war' between poodle and doodle owners. I've noticed that the people who ask if my dog is a doodle aren't tuned into either breed, but EVERYONE who has spotted my dog and commented "What a beautiful poodle!" are usually the ones who have been, or, are currently owned by at least two poodles. They always say "Aren't poodles great? Ya can't have just one!"


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*poodle/doodle hair*

Also the consensus is that doodles have fluffy, cute, teddy bear faces = cute.

Poodles have shaved faces with topknots = weird, too proper.

So then people choose the doodle because they love that long shaggy face, while forgetting the poodle can have any haircut you want it to have.

I should get a doodle and trim him like a poodle with topknot and all, and grow my poodle's hair out like a doodle. That will blow people's minds.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> I should get a doodle and trim him like a poodle with topknot and all, and grow my poodle's hair out like a doodle. That will blow people's minds.


Now, don't get carried away! :act-up:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Basically, breed purists don't get why anyone would cross-breed dogs in the first place. Breeders work at perfecting the breed and then someone comes up with a way to take a "mistake" and capitalize on it --- it's a shame, but it's marketing at its best. However, the purrists of any breed know better, so it's a tough argument to win when it is with someone who is not into a specific breed -- and I also believe that all the poodle purists in this forum will never believe anything different -- it's just a shame that such a wonderful breed is only recognized as such by the poodle community, and isn't more widely known.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Interestingly the first labradoodles weren't a mistake as such. A labrador breeder breeding for the royal guide dog foundation was trying to create a hypoallergenic dog that was a bit sturdier and less energetic than a poodle, didn't quite work and he deeply regrets it now, he didn't expect it to take off the way it did poor guy.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

That makes sense, I guess everyone jumping on the bandwagon......with every imaginable designer dog, etc.


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## itzfoxfire58 (Jun 18, 2011)

When I first got Fallen (@ 7 months old) we went to Tractor Supply to get some dog food and the two men who worked at that store said look at that Foo Foo Dog and laughed, I laughed too because thats what I thought any poodles were, until I came to this form. I told them that he's not a foo foo dog and then one of them said I was just kidding and that one of his aunts has one and he really cool. Fallen has also been called a Doodle by a small boy. I believe that Standard Poodles are so rare or rarely seen and the closes thing anyone has seen is a Doodle. Where ever we go people always come over and tell me how beautiful he is, how soft his hair is, he's so nice and he doesn't act like my dog. I think that the more people who are exposed to Spoos the more they will understand them. Oh and I saw my first Doodle in person at the DP when I was leaving, he looked like a old english sheep dog with curly hair (he was a tan color) he was big. 

Note: When I was 10 and my brother was 9 we were riding our bikes and a mini poo came out of no where and bit my brother. It wasn't funny at the time, but we laugh about it now because he was peddling so fast it looked like he was going to fall over LOL.

@ Katie and Ruff, Welcome to the forum, I hope you stay.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

At our dog park my big Standards kinda steal the show. 

Most of the other dogs might be described as hairy footballs with legs. Some kind of undetermined breed, crossed with some other undetermined breed.

They're cute, but.........

And I do try to make all the right noises as everybody's describing the 'make' of their dogs. ....."Oh yeah?", "Really?", "No kidding"..... But it's mostly goin' in one ear and out the other. Who can remember all those silly 'oodle' names? Not me... 

I do like the ones who like to run tho. My guys are always up for something to chase!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I see standard poodles everywhere I go here. I saw 4 at the dog park the other day. At a different dog park that next day I saw about 4 doodles. All I have to say is that the doodles are absolutely hideous! Sweet creatures I am sure, but I am admittedly vain and I cannot imagine an uglier dog.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

CM...I completely agree with you on all points XD I see a ton of standards in my area (alot are poorly bred like my Elphie, but I know quite a few from Boxwood and Dassin living right up the road ^_^)

And doodles to me are those sweet goofy dogs, some of the ugliest unruliest hair on a dog but I wouldn't trade ours for the world...now his massive shedding I could do without!!!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

My neighbor some years back was all excited with his new LABRODOODLE, Eddie. He was nearly cream/white and admittedly, was a cute puppy. However, the health issues started almost immediately.....I recall him bringing him to a university in southern Illinois to see some specialist (heart) as he had very serious issues.......I think he spent thousands of dollars on Eddie early on and apparently tackled with the breeder, too. I still see Eddie in the neighborhood --- he is HUGE and honestly, you'd be hard pressed to know what kind of dog he is, except usually the ones that are unidentifiable are the doodles.........


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I'm always sayign to people with doodles 'why not a pure poodle?' they always come up with "oh well ym wife/husnaband blach blah wanted this, and I wanted that... so we got a cross" and I just think......they are never an equal mix, theres alwyas gonna be something not equal....you could get the bits you dont want.... or they belieev the 'hypoallergenic BS' thats floating about.....

I LOVE saying well poodles are the most versatile breed in the world, theres no need to cross them, and then i usually get Harley to come and sit 'here', or I use my whistle to recall, or whatever, and I like to show that MY poodle is extremely obedient offleash wheeras THEIR crossbred (and I dont mean this in a derogatory manner, I mean the 'designer cross') is on a extending leash jumping about crazily...
then I call him to heel and walk off briskly ...... I may seem pompous but if I get annoyed I can get very angry and so walking away is usually the best option...
but seriously...its only people whove never had dogs or 'cant afford a purebred' that buy the designer dogs usually....unless theyre nincompoops....

buuut...I would like to say....I waited my WHOLE life to get a dog, my parents saved alot of money and although we didnt shop aorund much, we were easily able to get a purebred dog from an 'okay' breeder. if you're so impatient to get a dog, you shouldnt get one!! dogs are like children, they require funding and planning, just because you want a dog NOW doesnt mean you should get one...save up money and eventually you can get whatever breed you want!!! and if you talk to the breeder for long enough, theyll see you are a good home and DO want to find a good place for a puppy... the fact that some poodle breeders didnt think your home situation was right may just prove the doodle breeders were in for a quick buck.


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