# Scissoring Help/Advice Please!



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I scissored up Henry a little bit yesterday to get some practice. I did his tail, topknot and tipped a little bit along the sides. I did most of my shaping along his rear. I scissored closely on the back of his back legs to show his angulation. I also scissored very close to his rear, trying to hide that sway back of his. Now, it looks like he has a roach back, which is entirely due to my scissoring. I know that I must be doing something wrong because I caused the same look on Millie.

Here are a couple of (terrible) photos that I took today. My camera is in my boyfriend's car, so I had to use my iphone. I would love any suggestions, particularly:

*Why did I create a roach appearance?
*How can I improve?

Thanks!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Did you scissor just the rear area or did you also scissor the back? The topline just needs to be more level and you need to take more hair off where it looks like it's roached. Also, when you scissor the topline, what is your body position? It's best to stand right behind the dog when scissoring the top and rear instead of working from the side of the dog. Also, instead of scissoring the rear first, try taking the hair off the topline to make it level enough to hide the sway back, then move onto the rest, so that this way you've already set how much hair length you need to take off relative to the length of the back hair.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Thank you, Tokipoke! That is very helpful! Would you recommend just going over the back with long, curved shears?


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## Raena (Sep 20, 2009)

Long straights, curves will make it worse or gouge it and make the swayback appearance if your not careful. Henry's almost looks like an optical illusion because he doesn't have enough hair where he sways, just a thought. it looks like you're on the right track though! keep practicing


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Raena said:


> Long straights, curves will make it worse or gouge it and make the swayback appearance if your not careful. Henry's almost looks like an optical illusion because he doesn't have enough hair where he sways, just a thought. it looks like you're on the right track though! keep practicing


Henry really does have a sway back - that is not an optical illusion. It is actually an optical illusion that he does not have much hair where he sways - he has the *MOST* hair in that spot - LOL! 

The roach is an optical illusion, though. He doesn't have a roach back. Just a sway.

I don't have long straights. Just 10 inch curves and 8 inch straights. If I use curves perpendicular to his back, rather than parallel to his back, can't I even things out?


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

You can try using the curves perpendicular but I feel like it would be harder to create neat cuts. And you would be putting in more effort (more cuts) to take off the hair you want. Personally, I'd find using the the short straights parallel to the back easier compared to the longer curved going perpendicular. Try it both ways to see what works.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tokipoke - I used my straights. How does this look? Better?

The sway is still there, but not as bad. As I grow out his neck and upper back hair a little bit, I think it will become less evident.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

He looks much better in the second set of pics! Very noticeable difference. Great fix. 

I must say--sway back, roach back... Henry is still one handsome dude!  His _presence _in all the pics hides those flaws.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

He looks a lot better in the second pics! Personally, I would still take his croup area a little shorter...to me, he looks like he has a low tail set, which could be an optical illusion due to too much length. I don't know, it's hard to tell hair length in pictures! Taking that area shorter will also help with the sway back.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> He looks a lot better in the second pics! Personally, I would still take his croup area a little shorter...to me, he looks like he has a low tail set, which could be an optical illusion due to too much length. I don't know, it's hard to tell hair length in pictures! Taking that area shorter will also help with the sway back.


Henry does have a low tail set, you are correct.  I cannot go much longer on his rear without him having very little hair left there. I already took that pretty short. I will let everything grow a little longer before taking more off the rear to even things out again. Thanks for the advice! This is all very helpful. I know nothing about scissoring!


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## Raena (Sep 20, 2009)

Much better!! that the roach was the optical illusion was my point and that it wont look 100% until there is more hair grown in the swayed area. Also that your doing a great job with an adorable dog!!!
Also completly agree with mom24doggies about taking it shorter


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Raena said:


> Much better!! that the roach was the optical illusion was my point and that it wont look 100% until there is more hair grown in the swayed area. Also that your doing a great job with an adorable dog!!!
> *Also completly agree with mom24doggies about taking it shorter*


I will try...but....he only has maybe a quarter inch or so of hair left on his rear! His tail set is very low so it might make it look like he has more hair left on his rear. I fear that if I scissor much off you will be able to see his skin....

One reason why he has a sway back is that his rear is high (possibly higher than shoulders?), so this might also cause the illusion that he must have more hair than he does.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I will try...but....he only has maybe a quarter inch or so of hair left on his rear! His tail set is very low so it might make it look like he has more hair left on his rear. I fear that if I scissor much off you will be able to see his skin....
> 
> One reason why he has a sway back is that his rear is high (possibly higher than shoulders?), so this might also cause the illusion that he must have more hair than he does.


 YES!! I'm so happy I was right!! I'm getting better at this fault recognizing/correcting thing.   Haha, anyway...my poodle has the same issue...he has a slightly low tail set, (I have to really push his tail up to make it look good when he's stacked) and I always feel like I need to take his croup shorter...the only thing that really gets it perfect is a #7, which looks absolutely ridiculous blended into the longer hair. Believe me, I tried it!! Yeah, I would just let his shoulders grow out more to fill in the dip and take his rump as short as possible...and then let it go at that. There is only so much fault correcting you can do, KWIM!? I love that poodles have a lot of hair and so you can make them look like they are well built, when in reality they aren't always but there _is_ a limit to that.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

It does look a lot better! Poodle hair is amazing in that you can make the dog look a certain way. So many people think my spoo is "massive." His hair is just very fluffy. His hair isn't even that long but people think his body size is huge with 1/4" of hair or something! I would love to try the German trim on my dog but putting it off till he's done with his coat change. I plan on putting him in the continental so I don't have to worry about brushing half his body.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Much improvement in the 2nd group of pictures. Do you have snap on combs??? This would really help a great deal. My Spoo has a drop off as well which is why he is in a German clip to fill in that area. My Spoo also has a minor sway & I have to leave more hair right behind the dip in the withers. I pretty much start my SOC right at mid back. I actually start with his rear though right between & in front of his hips. Now Leif is a small & skinnier dog so when I use a #2 between his hips just a bit too tight since his hip bones stuck up BUT you could totally use a #2 between & right in front of the hips. You could also skim down the upper thighs which are nice & thick but until hair grows in the lower thigh & from hock down to balance out the body. Front legs need growth too. I would also take in the front right around the clip lines. These need to be tightend up almost to breastbone & then longer from then on out.


Just so you know what I use on my dog so he looks even & tight is amazing & a large range. If I start with SOC then I use a #2 right at his neck line to start the blend, thena 0 as I near his breastbone & I use the 0 from his ears straight down to his shoulders as well as my dogs belly. Then I start with an A on his ribs all the way to the tuck up. Right behind his withers I start a good fist length beyond & start with an E on his back blending down to the A on his ribs. Then of course I use a #1 right in front of his hips & between his hips. but not beyond because I need fill in front of Leifs tail. I use a #2 right under his pin bones & take that straight down to the bend in his legs. I then skim all 4 of his legs with an E. Then I start to scissor. Sounds like alot BUT one can't just use 1 blade or SOC & hide the faults of a dog.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

3dogs said:


> Much improvement in the 2nd group of pictures. Do you have snap on combs??? This would really help a great deal. My Spoo has a *drop off* as well which is why he is in a German clip to fill in that area. My Spoo also has a minor sway & I have to leave more hair right behind the dip in the withers. I pretty much start my SOC right at mid back. I actually start with his rear though right between & in front of his hips. Now Leif is a small & skinnier dog so when I use a #2 between his hips just a bit too tight since his hip bones stuck up BUT you could totally use a #2 between & right in front of the hips. You could also skim down the upper thighs which are nice & thick but until hair grows in the lower thigh & from hock down to balance out the body. Front legs need growth too. I would also take in the front right around the clip lines. These need to be tightend up almost to breastbone & then longer from then on out.
> 
> 
> Just so you know what I use on my dog so he looks even & tight is amazing & a large range. If I start with SOC then I use a #2 right at his neck line to start the blend, thena 0 as I near his breastbone & I use the 0 from his ears straight down to his shoulders as well as my dogs belly. Then I start with an A on his ribs all the way to the tuck up. Right behind his withers I start a good fist length beyond & start with an E on his back blending down to the A on his ribs. Then of course I use a #1 right in front of his hips & between his hips. but not beyond because I need fill in front of Leifs tail. I use a #2 right under his pin bones & take that straight down to the bend in his legs. I then skim all 4 of his legs with an E. Then I start to scissor. Sounds like alot BUT one can't just use 1 blade or SOC & hide the faults of a dog.


What is a drop off? 

About snap on combs, well the only clippers that I own are my little Wahl Arco FFT clippers. These have little plastic attachments but the clipper really is far too small to do body grooming. It drives me nuts trying to use it on the body because it doesn't take much off at a time.

My mom has larger Oster clippers but they are old and sometimes I can't find the combs, etc. Honestly, I'm really not big on clippers and prefer a scissored look if possible. Anyway, I need the practice because my show boy Tiger is coming home soon and I need all of the practice I can get with scissors.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Sorry- Drop Off- Is what I refer to where his tail is not level with his topline. & it "drops off" his back end. The tail should be nice & level with the back bone but my dog as with other don't have that.

I understand not having combs with the little Wahl. I love my little one & I love the full size one as well. With all my SOC uses I always scissor all my work. I just get more hair off using an SOC. But then again you are just tweeking small areas. My dogs I leave for 4-6 wks of growth & start over again as if I was in competition so I know what my dogs hair growth is. It would be nice to just tweek weekly. 

Use your 8"straights along the back to straighten out. Then if you see an area that needs to have a softer look then use your curves. I was only taught with straights so I am much faster & more confident with straights than with curved shears. Curves are new to me this year & though enjoying the learning experience I still love my straights.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

3dogs said:


> Sorry- Drop Off- Is what I refer to where his tail is not level with his topline. & it "drops off" his back end. The tail should be nice & level with the back bone but my dog as with other don't have that.
> 
> I understand not having combs with the little Wahl. I love my little one & I love the full size one as well. With all my SOC uses I always scissor all my work. I just get more hair off using an SOC. But then again you are just tweeking small areas. My dogs I leave for 4-6 wks of growth & start over again as if I was in competition so I know what my dogs hair growth is. It would be nice to just tweek weekly.
> 
> Use your 8"straights along the back to straighten out. Then if you see an area that needs to have a softer look then use your curves. I was only taught with straights so I am much faster & more confident with straights than with curved shears. Curves are new to me this year & though enjoying the learning experience I still love my straights.


Thanks so much for all of the advice and input! I truly am a novice at this!

Drop off - so you just mean a low tail set? This is his bum shaved!


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Thanks so much for all of the advice and input! I truly am a novice at this!
> 
> Drop off - so you just mean a low tail set? This is his bum shaved!


Tail set looks fine to me... Rule of thumb for tail set is, half way between the point of hip and point of rump. 

Now, because his should layback is a bit on the high side (not enough angulation in his shoulder, high in the withers), that is making his "sway back" appear more pronounced and give him a rounded appearance (or higher set appearance) at his hips. This is going to make the tail set look lower. Once you grow more hair on his crest, its going to correct a lot of his "faults" if you shave a higher "v" up in between his point of hip (at the tail), it will pull it up more, and keep it from looking like it's coming from under his butt. Also, with this, set his point of rump higher as well. Make it a more level line with his top line, with only a slight fall from the point of hip. Then, you can set the rear angulation to give him some flair. More hair on the from of the back legs and more the tuck up more forward and this will "square" him up.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Cameo said:


> Tail set looks fine to me... Rule of thumb for tail set is, half way between the point of hip and point of rump.
> 
> Now, because his should layback is a bit on the high side (not enough angulation in his shoulder, high in the withers), that is making his "sway back" appear more pronounced and give him a rounded appearance (or higher set appearance) at his hips. This is going to make the tail set look lower. Once you grow more hair on his crest, its going to correct a lot of his "faults" if you shave a higher "v" up in between his point of hip (at the tail), it will pull it up more, and keep it from looking like it's coming from under his butt. Also, with this, set his point of rump higher as well. Make it a more level line with his top line, with only a slight fall from the point of hip. Then, you can set the rear angulation to give him some flair. More hair on the from of the back legs and more the tuck up more forward and this will "square" him up.


Cameo, thank you so much for the detailed explanation!!


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

Dang, how could you make any sense out of that post with all the Typo's? This dang pad tends to make my typing seems more stupid than I really am, lol.


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