# Breeder backlash?



## Jelena (Aug 20, 2010)

My dear friend adopted two stray dogs from street and they are great dogs, I love them both and I'm happy she did adopt them.

But I think that she thinks I'm less good person for having pure breed dogs... because there are tones of strays around us that need home. I'm supposed to feel bad for loving and having poodles and not adopting. She never sad that in this exact words but I know she does think that way.

She is one of people that would say don't buy puppy from any breeder unless you have serious breeding ambitions yourself. She says breeders are just contributing to great number of strays because if they would have less puppies and breed just for breeding stock not for pets, more people would adopt if they just want dog as a pet.

There is some true in that, but still I want to live with poodles, guilty as charged..


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree, JE - the "Don't buy while dogs die" is making getting any dog other than a rescue seem somehow morally reprehensible. I know a lot of people who take the "she was really a rescue because ..." line over dogs they have purchased, presumably because it makes them feel better!

In some ways it is a good thing, if it makes us all consider rescue dogs when we are looking for a dog. But small, young, problem-free dogs other than terrier mixes are very rarely found in UK rescues, and most are rehomed very, very quickly. Like you, I looked for months for a companion for Sophy, before getting Poppy from a breeder.

The reality is that people fall in love with puppies more easily than with adolescents or adults - pups hit all those buttons that are hard wired into our psyches to make us go mushy. And then the puppy grows up ...

If all breeders took lifelong responsibility for the puppies they produced, perhaps they could reclaim some of the moral high ground. At the moment, all breeders seem to be demonised - show breeders for producing exaggerated, unhealthy animals, non-show breeders for being BYBs or puppy mills.

I plan a litter from Sophy this summer - a well known Papillon breeder and judge who knows Sophy well and has been encouraging me to show her wants to outcross from her line with her. So I have the perfect mentor, have several homes pencilled in, have my vet's backing, will be doing everything I can to raise healthy, happy pups and to choose the best possible homes, will - of course - take back any of the litter at any time... And I know there will still be condemnation from many directions!


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

I have never had a rescue dog. I like the idea of rescuing, its just not for me.

But I do pick up every stray dog I see on the street and make sure that he gets home or in the hands of someone who can get him a new home.

I understand people who like to pick the pup know the parents of the pup and know exactly what they are getting into.


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## rdelrigo (Jun 19, 2010)

I don't have anything against responsible breeders but for me, rescue is always going to be first and probably only choice. I really prefer purebred poodles so it takes awhile to find what you what in rescue but it does happen. There are many poodles in rescue that have behavioral issues but a good young dog. Both of my minis are rescues. I was lucky to find Peaches at a purebred rescue. She was a very healthy 8 month old pup. I rescued Corky myself from a craigslist posting where owner had passed and the dog was kept outside and not groomed. We saved him just before winter settled in and 4 months later he is a great little guy. If he didn't have such a sweet disposition his past would have ruined him. Thank god it didn't.

Btw if you do go the rescue route bear in mind they don't always know a lot about the breed. They told me when I adopted peaches that she was full grown at 8 months. In six months she has grown at least two inches and gained 5.4 lbs! She weighed 15 lbs yesterday!

Once again, I say do whatever is right for you, whether it be rescue or a responsible breeder.


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## Jelena (Aug 20, 2010)

Here where I live there are no poodles for adoption or any other breed (very rarely) so there is almost no chance for adoption of poodle 'cause you could wait for that to happen for years - you can only choose do you want smaller or bigger one mix breed dog from street, shorter or longer hair and that is it... Of course they all need home, and I do love all dogs and I help any way I can (sterilization, food...), but well bred poodles are my choice, they match my life style and that is type of dog I love to live with. If I had more room and if I lived in a big house I'd adopt too, to save at least one soul but wouldn't give up having poodles because there are too many homeless dogs. I know it sounds selfish but I think you know what I mean...

I'm thinking... if you chose rescue poodle or poodle mix aren't in a way you discriminating other rescue dogs?


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I have shifted my view for MYSELF, but do not think people should feel badly for wanting a dog from a reputable breeder. 

I personally cannot justify buying a dog from a reputable breeder when there are dogs needing homes in shelters. Yes, I adore poodles, but I have no doubt that I can find an amazing dog (poodle or not) at a shelter that needs my help more than a cute, well bred puppy.


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## poodlemom2be (Jan 30, 2011)

Last year when we were first starting out searching for our new family member, the first place we stopped was the humane society,I told the staff I was thinking about a puppy and we were looking and thinking about finding a breeder too, (Why did I say that), and I was told by one of the staff I should adopt a dog because, and I quote, "They are finding now there's a lot of in-breeding with pure bred, mixed breeds are healthier, you should adopt." Now I'm thinking to myself WHAT!? I don't believe this lady is saying this to me to get me to walk out of here with a puppy...any dog can potentially have heath problems and things happen as they get older, whether pure breed or mixed. There were a ton of pit-bull mixes and beagle mixes there was even a bloodhound pure bred, There were so many cute puppies in there that day, My daughters were very upset with me and bawling on the way out, but I just couldn't, my heart is set on a poodle puppy now, although, I wouldn't mind rescuing one day.


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## robin (Dec 18, 2010)

There is also a hitch, a problem, with rescue -- two of the largest poodle rescues in the country will not even consider an adopter who a) lives out of state, even if you are willing to drive there to pick the dog up and be personally interviewed; b) doesn't have a fenced yard; c) fill-in-the-blank on some other hard-to-meet condition.

I don't have a fenced yard because the property owners' association on my small lake will not permit them. I am a mature adult single woman with no children or grandchildren. I work from home and am available 24/7 to my animals. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I have always put my animals first, including past times when it caused hardship for me to do so. 

But because I don't live in Georgia or Missouri, where the two of the biggest poodle rescues are, I should not be able to adopt one of their dogs? 

Please tell me how this benefits the dogs they are rescuing.

So the "don't buy while dogs die" *idea* may be good, but as with many things in life, there are unintended consequences. Some of the poos on those two rescues' sites have been there for MONTHS. It really wounds my tender heart to think about how those dogs still suffer from a lack of loving human companionship.

I have had many kinds of dogs in my life, including pits and pit crosses. While I loved those dogs immeasurably, a pit or pit cross is not a good choice for just anyone who wants a dog. And of course by far most of those rescue pits are the result of totally untested back yard breedings. So "don't buy while dogs die" is pushing dogs that might be unstable -- sometimes dangerously so -- onto people who might otherwise benefit from a well-bred, purebred dog.

Sorry for the rant, but this really aggravates me.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

As I am considering a second poodle I have been going to the rescue pages and there is nothing available that is what I am looking for. the only one I found was rescued from a hoarder situation and very scared of the world. I wish I could say I was up to dealing with that but with my personal home situation and interest in therapy work I just can't. I would have no problem with a rescue if it was what I was looking for though. I also want a poodle that looks like a poodle...so for me that is good coat and docked tail , pretty face, longer legs etc. Now I start feeling bad for being so picky LOL! I am happy to say I have the possibility of having a retired senior show dog to come and live with our family.. Older than what I was looking for but I love older dogs and everything else is perfect  This will not make me feel guilty ! i used to do rescue and know rescues aren't for everyone. 

robin, have you talked with them? I don't know these rescues but while looking myself I have read a rescue wont adopt outside their area, have to do a home check etc but after talking with them they would have waived some of these things in the right circumstances. good luck, you sound like a great responsible adopter and should be able to find someone to work with you.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I've done it both ways... I managed a Humane Society for four years and during my time there, I adopted three dogs. Two were owner surrenders and one was a impounded stray. 

My views on breeding are complicated. I know several excellent breeders who are doing things right and I have no beef with them thoughtfully and carefully breeding puppies - these people also take lifelong responsibility for what they bring into this world...

However I have a HUGE problem with people who breed puppies "just because they can" or because they think they're going to make a lot of $$... The thread that Kalamama started about the French bulldogs that were being sold as "breeders", even though the male had health problems and the advertisement touted that this $8,000 pair would produce $xx,xxx worth of puppies in the next twelve months... that's just plain WRONG in my book...

I may adopt another rescue in my lifetime - I can't say for now (although I'm an active foster home for orphan dogs or cats when I'm able - at least I'm helping as I can) I know that in a few years I would love to have another well-bred poodle, because there is nothing like them. I love my adopted rescues - they will be with me for the rest of their lives, and if I would ever find another with their temperament/personality, I may very likely adopt again, too... The thing with adoption, it's like you're offered a whole box of assorted chocolates, and you don't know what you're going to get until you make your selection and bite into it - it might be a delicious caramel, or it might be one of those gross jelly filled ones! :lol: When purchasing a well-bred, pure bred animal, it's like you have an entire box of your favorite flavor and you know whichever one you choose, it will be wonderful. ('K, now I want a piece of chocolate!)

What I will never, ever, ever do is buy from a pet store or a "breeder" who doesn't meet my standards as thoughtful, knowledgeable and responsible. These people aren't doing it for the love of the breed, or even the love of dogs, but for the love of money and they don't have the same heart-investment that GOOD breeders do.

I'm also an active member of our local kennel club and a few of our members (and my friends) are wonderful show people and thoughtful, responsible breeders - if I wanted a different breed, I would have no problem purchasing from them (through the kennel club, I have different friends who breed dobermans, bull terriers, weimeraners, beagles, GSH, Goldens, mini dachshunds, etc...) Since I know these people, and I know the standards they set for themselves; I wouldn't hesitate referring people who are looking for those specific breeds to them.

In a perfect world, there would be no puppy mills, brokers, pet stores, or greedy ignorant people breeding, there would just be people who do their research, testing, investing blood, sweat and tears into their programs - this would also result in a lot fewer orphans needing homes.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

OMG YES. I am HEAVILY involved in two rescues. I've fostered over 15 dogs in the last 2 years. I volunteer a lot for both of them. 

And often they get into bashing breeders and i GO HELLO WTF do you think i am? I just had a good talk with my friend who runs the one rescue and that list of "what arespectable breeder should do' that i posted on here a few weeks go- we tweaked it- and it's going up on the website for the rescue. 

Yes rescues are great i've got my two. Truthfully i don't think i'll ever have another one. Because of MY goals with my dogs. so i do my part in fostering, volunteering, donating to their fundraisers. I think rescues SHOULD be also helping educate on how to find a GOOD breeder


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Is it just me, or does the opinion trend seem to be moving from "adopt a pet dog if you can, don't buy a puppy mill dog" to "don't buy a dog from a breeder EVER"?
> 
> Not sure how we got a place where good breeders are being demonised.
> 
> ...







:stupid:


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

I despise PETA (and Humane Society, which is just PETA dressed in different garb) and everything they stand for. They are not anti breeders, they are anti any domesticated animals.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> I despise PETA (and Humane Society, which is just PETA dressed in different garb) and everything they stand for. They are not anti breeders, they are anti any domesticated animals.


Ditto!!! And that video was terrible. I haven't been paying a lot of attenion to rescue sites for a while until just recently. I don't think all the Pits and Pitt x's are there from responsible breeders. I am sickened by the number of them in rescue  Someone need to find a way to address this problem.. It just makes me so sad...it just looked like they are being bred and bred and whole litters and Moms turned in. between people that just let their dogs be bred and puppy mills the shelters are over run...Some of the dogs are very adoptable and some don't work for family pets.. I am also seeing lot of cattle dogs... Sad again.. They aren't an easy breed for a lot of people. so does Peta want people to go and adopt these pets instead of getting a breed more suitable for their family? don't get me wrong, I like some of both of these breeds... But they just aren't for everyone and in my area probably over 50% of the shelter are these breeds.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

As someone who has carried hundreds of cadaver bags to the dumpster in real life (or death) that PETA ad is beyond offensive. I don't know if they thought it was cute or clever, but it's neither.

I agree that people who buy from suspect sources (petstores, online brokers - which sell puppy mill dogs, their unthinking neighbor whose unspayed bitch just HAPPENED to get pregnant - whoops, etc) instead of adopting from shelters may contribute to the number of dogs euthanized each year, but to sensationalize dead animals in this way is simply gross (IMO) And I believe it IS the puppymills and thoughtless byb's who actually create the numerous lives that ultimately can snuff out the chance of a new home for existing shelter dogs.

I am NOT a fan of PETA and never have been (nor will be!) They scare me...


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Feathersprings said:


> so does Peta want people to go and adopt these pets instead of getting a breed more suitable for their family?


Actually, I believe PETA would be happiest if no human adopted, bought or owned ANY animal, EVER... They don't care if you want a suitable pet - they don't think there should BE pets... at least that's the impression I get from them...


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## Standard (Aug 25, 2010)

The pitty problem seems to just be getting worse. They appeal to the wrong people, and when bred and socialized improperly can become dangerous. They are the victims of their own success. Although I do not condone what Ontario has done in banning pits, they really have stopped the problem. You cannot breed them, all must be fixed, and any dogs already owned must be leashed and muzzled out in public. I think it's good people can't breed them (as authoritarian as it), but the muzzling thing is ridiculous. Anyways, since the ban, dog bites haven't gone down at all! 

As for the demonization of breeders, I agree the tides are turning. You are shamed for having a purebred dog. However, I believe this is a good thing. Those of us who are educated enough to find a good breeder realize we know what we are doing. And hopefully those who don't will think of adopting. I myself have never not had a rescue till my poodle. And I must say, after having one, it is hard to go back. I've already looked for standard poodles in rescue and its like looking for a needle in a haystack. I know I will always do rescue instead of buying, but I also know I will need a poodle in my life. I will likely end up getting a poodle from a good breeder, and rescueing all my other dogs.

It is comforting to know the demand for spoos is out there though. If something ever happened to me and all my backup homes... Spoos are more likely to find a good home I should think.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

******Standard
As for the demonization of breeders, I agree the tides are turning. You are shamed for having a purebred dog. *****

I just think it is despicable the way the media can put a spin on something and people believe it to be the truth and can't make up their own minds.

I have nothing against mutts. But I don't think that we (as the public) should be ashamed because we want a purebred dog. I agree that many of the pounds are full of dogs because they have been bred indiscriminantly...etc etc.

People can be so closed minded sometimes. My neighbour is a member of the Animal Rescue Foundation and she has scads of mixed breed dogs. She used to talk to me, until she found out I breed poodles. Now she turns her head away when I walk by her house with my gang.

Ridiculous.
:banghead::banghead::banghead:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

truelovepoodles said:


> I have nothing against mutts. But I don't think that we (as the public) should be shamed into wanting a purebred dog.


I know it's not always the case (especially if you are looking for a specific BREED of purebred dog) but our little shelter, at times, had over 50% purebred dogs at any given time. I know we never had a standard poodle, but we had minis and toys as well as lots of purebred labs, dobermans, min pins, dachshunds (mini & standard), corgis, basset hounds, cattle dogs, cockers, dalmations, huskies, GSH, GWH, GSD, and an occasional bloodhound, wheaten, cairn, English bulldog, great dane, akita, weim, Irish setter, etc... So if someone's requirement is that they want their dog to be of pure blood - those are definitely available at shelters too, right beside the Heinz 57s...

One of the problems we had with PB dogs at the shelter is that a surprising number of people had this idea that they could adopt the dog and then have puppies with it (BECAUSE IT'S PUREBRED!!) :doh: We'd have to clear that up right quick! We'd have our volunteer veterinarian spay/neuter the purebreds as quickly as possible after surrender so potential adopters wouldn't get any funny ideas! :fish:


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Having somewhat recently purchased a dog from a breeder...I've felt it. I've heard "Oh well, _I_ would never _pay_ for a dog..." (meaning they would only rescue)....etc.

Hopefully when we get another dog we can go that route. I need to know 100% they are a pure standard (allergies) and some dogs do come with that information. Sadly, there seem to be a lot of them being relinquished due to economic situations where they were loved and cared for. 

This time it wasn't right for us. I have a bad rescue experience imprinted in my childhood memory and I didn't want that for my kids so we started with a puppy. And it does feel like I need to be defensive about that, in some cases.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

rdelrigo said:


> There are many poodles in rescue that have behavioral issues but a good young dog.


That is sad but also the reason we did not adopt when we were looking for our second poodle. It was the deciding factor against adoption actually though we really looked at the Fla poodle rescue and talked to them and it just wasn't going to work. They even had a dog with his papers at the time and in order to do obedience and rally I needed a dog I could at least get a pal number on or who was registered. Anyway with the smaller dogs and the cats to worry about non of the standards were going to work for us. There was going to be way to much remedial training and I had to consider the safety of the smaller animals and the happiness of the new addition. After having Nicholas I am doubly glad we didn't adopt one of the adult dogs we were looking at who had behavioral issues. That may have proved to much  A young dog was hard enough. 
We did adopt Jazz but we got extremely lucky with her. It could have been a disaster and that fact wasn't lost on me. I was so focused on keeping her from being put down that I didn't think all the possibilities all the way through. Thank goodness she is about the best dog one could ask for. Bummer though that she hates "working" though lol. Her calling is as a therapy dog and that's all she does, no rally for her lol. That's Saleen's Job. 

I once had a client who walked into my shop and saw my poodles together in a kennel. Without realizing that they were both MY dog's she went off about how horrible the person who owned those purebreds (said with a sneer of course) was and how SHE would NEVER own a purebred dog, and how bad they were.... on and on she went which was ironic considering she wanted to breed her mix breed dog??? When she was finished I mentioned that they were both mine and I competed with them and needed dog's that could be registered in order to compete. I also pointed out a photo of Jazz doing therapy work and mentioned that she was just the best and didn't shed which was nice. I then charged her like 100 bucks for her groom  b/c after all your dog is part chow and I'm definitely not cutting you a break on his groom now that you've insulted me  She was always nicer after that.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Well I feel fine with breeding.
I know if anything happens to my pups they will come back to me and not end up in shelters. 
So at least I am not creating a bigger problem.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Westminster brought this up a lot on Facebook. I had the next day after BIS a friend post (who has a PB sheltie- but BYB) how blah blah purebreds were aweful and blah blah crossbreds don't have the same issues blah blah. 

WE did agree on a few things (we had quite the conversation she's a good friend i see a few times a year i love her dearly) 
1- bad breeders are bad breeders
2- that dogs who hae been bred to the point they can't reproduce with out c sections as a norm is just well gross
3- that many breeds DO need help being brought back to a more normal SOUND way of being. 
4- she came to agree that YES we do have many GREAT breeders out there who do not breed for money and do health testing et-c she had NO CLUE about that.


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

Since we're discussing both breeder bashing and the scarcity of Poodles (especially Standard Poodles) available in rescue, I've got a scenario and a couple of questions.
Scenario: Responsible breeder, who tests and has done all the pedigree research for health, whelps a litter. But after the pups are whelped, either the dam or sire has a health problem that was unknown prior to the breeding and not expected based on pedigree research.....such as SA, Addison's or bloat. Being a responsible breeder, they tell the potential puppy buyers that there is the possibility of xyz because one of the parents, etc etc etc. Even offer to give the pup to them for only the cost of spay/neuter. No takers.

Questions: 
1. Why would puppy/dog buyers prefer to adopt (paying a sometimes several hundred dollar fee) a rescue with no health history or any idea of health issues rather than get a perfectly healthy pup at a lower cost knowing there is the possibility...not certainty, but possibility...of a health problem down the road?
2. Why do those same people and others excoriate those responsible breeders for breeding a litter of "unhealthy" pups, when that's clearly not the case?
3. Why is getting a dog from a formal rescue or shelter rather than a breeder somehow socially 'chic' and more 'acceptable', even if the breeder's pup needs a home just as badly?

Just some thoughts for a Friday afternoon.....<sigh> Sadly, I am aware of several breeders who are in this boat right now.

And as a p.s. --- I inherited a SPxGR cross from my mother. The pups were truly an accident (I knew the dams owner)....but out of the litter of 10 surviving (1 was stillborn) - 8 died of epilepsy (6 of these before they were 2), 1 died of kidney failure at 7, 1 got cancer and was gone by age 3, and my CurlySue made it to 11-1/2 with only a couple of petit mal seizures. You cannot tell me that mutts are always healthier!!

Nan


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## onlypoodles4me (May 18, 2009)

This is something I have been seeing a lot of recently. It really irritates me, they can act very smug about it. I have done more than my fair share of rescue. At this point in my life I want what I want, and since I am the one living with it, paying for it, and it's care why do they care! 
I agree they are preaching to the wrong people. Why the heck should I clean up after the irresponsible stupid people who are breeding thier pits, chihuahuas or poodle x's because theythink they can make money! (the breeds most seen in the shelters here) 
I have never had a dog under my care pro-create, I spay an neuter everything that has come our way. 
I choose to buy my dogs from breeders who will always take responsibility for the dogs they create if something were to happen to us. (something I have often pointed out)
Not to mention that around here poodle rescue does not often have standards.
Will I rescue again? If the right dog comes across my path at the right time, of course I would.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm so disgusted by that video...being a young impressionable lad I donated a ton of money to PETA when I was 16...I just thought they were a bunch of loons but truly cared for animals, these recent ad campaigns of the past couple years show that I was wrong in my assumption of them v.v;

the scene where you could see the tail sticking out of the bag, and then the scene where you could see a defined skull of a dog almost made me vomit...

and I'd like to add to the rescue's being healthier, the idea that a mixed dog is healthier is due to the diversity in its pedigree...which isn't available ever...but its the idea that these dogs have no common ancestors and are so far removed from which ever was their "original breed" that they tend to live longer
it may not always be the truth, but in my home we've only ever rescued dogs and except for the Lhasa we had when I was a toddler all of our dogs have lived far into seniority


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## cerulia (Jan 7, 2010)

robin said:


> There is also a hitch, a problem, with rescue -- two of the largest poodle rescues in the country will not even consider an adopter who a) lives out of state, even if you are willing to drive there to pick the dog up and be personally interviewed; b) doesn't have a fenced yard; c) fill-in-the-blank on some other hard-to-meet condition.
> 
> I don't have a fenced yard because the property owners' association on my small lake will not permit them. I am a mature adult single woman with no children or grandchildren. I work from home and am available 24/7 to my animals. Anyone who knows me will tell you that I have always put my animals first, including past times when it caused hardship for me to do so.
> 
> ...



I'm so with you! We looked into rescues for months trying to find a dog but the requirements practically included an organ donation, and proof of being an independently wealthy stay-at-homer. I understand why these requirements are in place, but I must say it only encourages less informed types to go pay a BYB 200 bucks for a puppy--instant gratification. They're not going to wait the 2 months for the application and miss "puppy time" or spend 10 g's to get their yard fenced in when they can buy a craigslist designer puppy.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

That PETA ad was disgustingly obnoxious. The truth is that many, if not most, shelter and rescue dogs came from puppy mills, backyard breeders, accidental random breedings, and so forth. Even those that are "purebred" are almost never *well* bred. The puppymills and BYBs are exactly those sources that PETA and everyone else will tell you NOT to get a dog from - but suddenly the animals are sprinkled with fairy dust and become desirable and the only moral choice once they've found their way into a shelter? That just makes no sense.

Now I have one of each - my sweet little cuddle-bug Pippin came from a rescue, and my lean and elegant and smart Casey came from a quality breeder. By getting Pippin, does that mean I cost some quality breeder a sale? Or by buying Casey, does that mean I consigned some poor shelter dog to death? 

My sense of doggie-math just doesn't work that way. Both my dogs are cherished members of the household; come the time to get another dog (may that be many years in the future, please God), I might go either way. 

It seems that many folks posting on here have come to the same conclusion, that there is no one way that is the *only* way to get a fine pet. I think the most evil thing about the PETA and similar campaign in favor of shelter dogs is spreading the divisive idea that one way of getting a dog is morally superior to another way.

Funny that in so many other areas of life, we are instructed to be accepting and tolerant of differences, but when it comes to acquiring a dog, people jump on their soapbox and insist there is only one acceptable choice. So much for tolerance, eh?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> I'm so disgusted by that video...being a young impressionable lad I donated a ton of money to PETA when I was 16...I just thought they were a bunch of loons but truly cared for animals, these recent ad campaigns of the past couple years show that I was wrong in my assumption of them v.v;


Not just the recent ones... PETA has been disgusting for decades, but you are probably too young to remember. They have duped so many people, don't feel bad--your heart was in the right place. 

The thing that is even more annoying than PETA itself is all the stupid celebrities who blindly support PETA who clearly don't know a thing about the organization or what it stands for. PETA is against all pet ownership, a fact they don't overtly publicize.


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## FrouFrouFan (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm a firm believer in the idea that you are devoting the next 12-15 (hopefully!) years in a dog. I think you should be able to know what you're getting a (breed characteristics and health testing, if you want.) I also believe that the time to save a puppy from ending up in the pound is the training period between 10 weeks and a year. A good proportion of dogs in the shelter are 'repeaters'- they've been adopted and their adopted families relinquished them again due to some training issue. Also, I've heard, "Well, she's a rescue," as an excuse not to treat gum disease or spay their dog. I'm glad when I hear of someone rescuing a dog and taking good care of it, but I would never make anyone feel guilty about a choice as personal as a best friend!


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

I think many people lump all breeders together with byb's. I was just having a discussion about this subject with a friend of mine. 

When I listed all of the things my chosen future breeder does, such as health test, inspect pedigrees, match potential studs for body type and low COI, only breed bitches after age 2 and then only once or maybe twice in their lifetimes, show, temperament test, socialize, offer a health and temperament guarantee, remain in contact with all families, make sure that all her puppies have a home for the rest of their lives so they never end up in shelters, etc, etc, he just stood there flabbergasted. 

He had no idea that there were breeders out there like that. He thought they all were producing puppies for money that are filling the shelters. I explained that I really like poodles, that I want a poodle that will want to do therapy work with me, that doesn't come with a lot of baggage, and will be healthy, and that I want to socialize it as a puppy. After all of that, he just kind of said, "Wow, OK then." 

Sometimes I think it's about educating. Of course we don't want dogs to be stuck in shelters, but good breeders aren't contributing to the problem. I'm not sure most people know that.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> The thing with adoption, it's like you're offered a whole box of assorted chocolates, and you don't know what you're going to get until you make your selection and bite into it - it might be a delicious caramel, or it might be one of those gross jelly filled ones! :lol: When purchasing a well-bred, pure bred animal, it's like you have an entire box of your favorite flavor and you know whichever one you choose, it will be wonderful. ('K, now I want a piece of chocolate!)


Love, love, love this analogy!

I think it all comes down to PR ... the media and the humane societies have done a good job of demonising BAD breeders (BYB, designer dog breeders, etc) but now we need a PR push from the various kennel clubs to point out the advantages of GOOD breeders and how to identify them. I am all for rescue, and will eventually add a second poodle from rescue (keeping my eyes open for a senior ex-puppy farm bitch ... those are the ones that tug at my heart), but without good breeders, I think dogs as a whole will suffer.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> but without good breeders, I think dogs as a whole will suffer


. 

Boy, I totally agree with that.

I'm not so sure that I agree that you necessarily know exactly what you're getting when you buy a well-bred, pure bred animal. They still will have their individual quirks, likes and dislikes. In a given litter, you might have one that would be a perfect therapy dog but who dislikes agility; another who loves running the agility equipment but is shy with people (i.e., my Casey...), another who would be perfect for confirmation but, oops, went an inch over-size, and maybe a fourth who is the breeder's dream child for conformation and showing. Or maybe none in a litter are perfect for showing for one reason or another, but they all make wonderful pets.

I definitely think you have a *better* idea of what you're getting when you buy a purebred from a conscientious breeder who does health tests AND temperament tests, but that doesn't mean the puppy's destiny is written in stone. Whether it's a well-bred dog, a rescue, an "oops!" puppy from an accidental breeding or whatever, you still have to have room in your heart and your life to love the unexpected bits and pieces of the dog's personality and abilities that only become apparent after you've had it for a while.

Kind of like human kids in that respect. ;-)


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

yes, I've gotten a few raised eyebrows and the smug tone of voice, 

Them: is that a real (true, full, etc) poodle?
Me: yes!
Them: Well my dog's a shelter dog. 
Me: Good for you! Your dog's so lucky to have a forever home. (me scratching pups head smiling kindly).
Them: Yes, there's a lot of dogs there that need homes. Seems like the thing to do.
Me: well, I'm just not able to have a bunch of unknowns in personality, plus I love poodles and work with a very responsible breeder, heath tests, etc. 
Them: well my dog's really the best.
Me: Fozzie! time to go!

OR

Them: Is that a real(true, full) poodle?
Me: Yes, it is!
Them: My dog's your dog's cousin!
Me: ummmm......
Them: yes, she's part poodle!
Me: (smiles weakly).


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Sorry I didn't see this earlier, since I just discussed the possibility of getting a rescue spoo on this forum. I'm not sure I have much to add, since most of my points are already out there. I can tell you that I like the idea of rescuing but I am not bound to it. Every dog needs a home, and spoos are hard to find in rescues, as are all "hypo-allergenic" dogs. [Yes, I know there's no such thing, but I don't know of another short-hand for "dog I'm not allergic to."]

I suspect the backlash against purebred dog owners and breeders would be lessened by revisiting the breed standards and amending them to address health issues that have surfaced. Introducing COI ceilings and correcting for deformities that are promoted under the current standards (e.g. the sloped back in GSD and the small skull in KCC, which are desirable in the ring and nowhere else) would go a long way towards repairing the image of purebreds and the AKC.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

yeah, you ain't hip and happenin' unless you got a shelter doggie.
i have 4 dogs. 2 from breeders, 1 from pure bred rescue and 1 my son brought home.

i love 'em all. 

i just happen to love having purebred dogs. 
and i buy my food at a non profit store where all profits goes to help animals in no kill shelters. i do a lot that way. my fur kids are all spayed and neutered.

and peta makes me want to eat a cheeseburger.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Liz said:


> Every dog needs a home, and spoos are hard to find in rescues, as are all "hypo-allergenic" dogs. [Yes, I know there's no such thing, but I don't know of another short-hand for "dog I'm not allergic to."]


Actually poodles are "hypo-allergenic" which means LESS likely to cause allergies... There is no such thing as a "non-allergenic" dog, one that will never cause allergies... Wikipedia isn't always my "go-to" source, but for this purpose I think it's ok: Hypoallergenic dog breed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



faerie said:


> and peta makes me want to eat a cheeseburger.


:lol: :lol: ound: :lol: :amen:


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

also sometimes like me I have rescued 8 dogs that were all abused, neglected, reactive etc. i have had to deal with dogs that cannot be approached by any people or dogs, clients in the shop, other dogs in parks on street or what ever, i havent been able to do agilty trials or rally-0 trials because of thier issues,I am glad i took these dogs throughout my life, they would have been put down for sure. so i am now going the breeder route because i can control what the dog learns and getting a properly socialized dog that my family members dont have to be afraid of is a big deal to me. There are lots of good rescues out there, i help clients find a good match every week, even within my own clients i help rehome. but not very many rescues can handle a schedule like mine. so i dont hold it against anyone for wanting breeder route if they realize that the term "breeder" is not earned and so to be careful of what they are supporting. just my two bits.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> but now we need a PR push from the various kennel clubs to point out the advantages of GOOD breeders and how to identify them. I am all for rescue, and will eventually add a second poodle from rescue (keeping my eyes open for a senior ex-puppy farm bitch ... those are the ones that tug at my heart), but without good breeders, I think dogs as a whole will suffer.


yes i agree! it took me a long time to find my ideal breeder and thats with many years of grooming & training and handling peoples dogs to be able to sift through the different qualities of "breeders" out there by reading and talking and emailing them.
i feel bad for the general public, how can they possibly know? some of those mass produce places like a certain one that begins with S are quite good at saying all the right things and appearing(to reg people) to be knowledgeable and care. and it is so apparent when i talk to non dog smart people, neighbors, my aunt through marriage,etc, and i tell them that i would easily drive 2 days(one way) or fly to get my puppy(more expensive than a trip to mexico), and they say "why? just get one from around here" oh boy.....how do i explain this in under a few hours?


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It is disappointing that the Kennel Club isn't more of a force for good in dog breeding, both in promoting the benefits of buying from a good breeder, and by enforcing health and quality standards. The Kennel Club here had a wake-up call with the "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" video, which drove some immediate changes in reaction to the publicity. Sadly, it doesn't seem to be translating into a really forward-looking change in the organisation.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think organisations like the Kennel Club are innately conservative, and are always going to find change difficult. It would be interesting to know the average age of the non-execs on the boards of the KC and the many breed clubs - accumulated years of experience are very valuable, but can lead to resistance to new ideas. And it can be painful to recognise that information that used to be available only to those who were prepared to spend years tracking pedigrees and breeding lines can now be made available to anyone with access to a computer (I used to work in Information - you have no idea how people fight to keep control of information because of the power and influence they feel they gain from it). Interpreting that information still needs experience, of course. 

Add in the feeling that years of breeding to a notional standard of perfection are now being seen in some cases as detrimental to the breed, and that the established methods of line - and even in-breeding are being recognised as contributing to health problems across most breeds, and you can understand the seige mentality that has emerged.

I place my faith in organisations like the Dogs' Trust, which are focussed on the well being of all dogs and carry less historical baggage.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

OT



plumcrazy said:


> Actually poodles are "hypo-allergenic" which means LESS likely to cause allergies... There is no such thing as a "non-allergenic" dog, one that will never cause allergies... Wikipedia isn't always my "go-to" source, but for this purpose I think it's ok: Hypoallergenic dog breed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Yeah, wiki isn't always the best, but this article explains succinctly how hypo-allergenic has been mis-applied to pets (it specifically mentions poodles). Hypo-allergenic means producing less allergens, and many "hypo-allergenic" pets actually produce the same amount of allergens (more or less) but in a different form, and thus affect people differently.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

All of my dogs have been adopted, either from the pound or from a rescue, with the exception of Rosie, who I got from my elderly MIL when she had to leave her home. I totally understand people who want a puppy from a reputable breeder - getting a known commodity.

What most people don't think about is that many, if not most, of the rescued pure breds are byb rejects that didn't sell. They're not any healthier than a good pure bred, purchased from a reputable breeder; in fact, they may have a host of problems. I know that my two poodles are definitely NOT good representatives of the breed. Fonzie's not evenly remotely built right, and we recently found out that Potsie has grade 4 luxating patellas.

Does that make me love them any less? Of course not! Would I adopt a rescue again - yes. Is it any cheaper to rescue? No, because a pure bred commands big bucks compared to the Heinz 57's, plus they often need vet work to bring them up to speed.

Why do I do it? I'm NUTS, that's why!! :crazy: I don't care for puppies, so I do it. Do I deserve a medal - NO! It's my choice just like it's your choice if you purchase a pure bred puppy from a good breeder.

Live and let live...:hippie:


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## northerndancer (Jan 27, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> It is disappointing that the Kennel Club isn't more of a force for good in dog breeding


Do any of the Kennel Clubs (AKC, CKC, UKC) do anything to enforce the non-breeding contract that come with most puppies that are sold as pets? That would be a good thing if they do.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the UK at least, if a puppy is sold with breeding restrictions, pups cannot be registered with the Kennel Club (I think it is the same in the US?). But there are alternative "registers" that don't much care what the parents are as long as the fees are paid.


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## northerndancer (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks for the reply. I was hoping that would be the case.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Liz said:


> OT
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, wiki isn't always the best, but this article explains succinctly how hypo-allergenic has been mis-applied to pets (it specifically mentions poodles). Hypo-allergenic means producing less allergens, and many "hypo-allergenic" pets actually produce the same amount of allergens (more or less) but in a different form, and thus affect people differently.


Although a study showed that Wikipedia only has, on average, one more mistake than an encyclopedia. 

I wouldn't go quoting Wikipedia OR an encyclopedia for any legitimate research but for general information I think Wikipedia is wonderful!


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