# Arthritis prevention? Front leg conformation?



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie had her annual vet visit this week.

Our vet is awesome. Not allowed to go in with Annie but got to talk and watch through the window.

After a thorough physical exam, the vet mentioned Annie's front feet have a slight turn inwards she says may be related to her chest conformation. Not something I had seen before but, looking at her, she is probably right. She said we will watch Annie for signs of arthritis as she ages due to that. This was particularly concerning to me since last time she was there (last spring) the vet noticed slight swelling in one of the front ankles.

I didn't think to ask the vet at the time, but are there any suggestions for osteoarthritis prevention I can do now before it begins? Supplements? I have arthritis myself (not osteo) so the idea of Annie in that kind of pain is rather horrifying..

She is not standing straight and balanced at all in this photo but best I could manage with my dog who was irritated with me for waking her up! I will try again later to get a better picture.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I hope she doesn’t develop arthritis as a fellow sufferer.

Did the vet have any recommendations? I would imagine keeping her weight down so she’s slim with well rounded exercise to keep her muscles well toned would help.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

It is odd because I'm so used to Misha's feet turning slightly out. I know a narrow chest causes turn out so maybe a broad chest causes turn in. Maybe take a video of her walking toward you. I know the most important thing is how the feet face while walking. Sometimes they turn out or in at rest but are fine when moving.

I use green lipped mussel regularly. It is a natural source of glucosamine and also reduces inflammation. Really good stuff. Many people use turmeric as well. Look up golden paste.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Vet didn't mention anything about prevention. Said she was well muscled. I asked about her weight and she is a few pounds over ideal (have been having arguments about this with my mom who insists on feeding the dogs and doesn't bother measuring, so happy to have vet backup). 

Trixie's feet are easty westy. Had never even considered inwards feet as a possibility. And yes, vet said possibly partially due to a broader than usual chest for a poodle.

Good idea on the video! That's easier to do than getting her to pose.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Diego takes doggie dailies advanced hip and joint. I don’t know if it would prevent arthritis, but I don’t think it would hurt to start a supplement like this one. Starla loved them too.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Keeping her lean and well muscled is a good start. You can also start her on a joint supplement. A canine sports medicine vet I know recommends that most dogs be started on one at around three or four years old, whether they are a sport dog or not. I'm using Glycoflex 3 VETRISCIENCE GlycoFlex Stage III Senior Joint Support Dog Tablets, 120 count - Chewy.com for my nine year old GSD, and Nutrivet Hip and Joint regular strength NUTRI-VET Hip & Joint Regular Strength Dog Chewables, 120 count - Chewy.com for my nearly seven year old APBT.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My Pia has a severe ankle tip, I was told to keep her fit. I also keep the bottom of all dogs feet shaved even the chi mix to ward off arthritis and keep the legs toned


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## JJ❤cavaliers (Mar 24, 2021)

In terms of supplements, my recommendation would be Fera Pet Organics, if you're in Canada, you can order directly off their website, but everywhere else can be ordered off Amazon. This is it: Hip + Joint Support for Dogs - Fera Pet Organics. In addition, green lipped mussels are also good for that. There are beds that are supposed to protect bones, joints, muscles etc.. I think they're called orthopedic beds. That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Your vet will probably have suggestions. Also, there are massages that integrative/holistic vets sometimes do.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

This is why people are warned to buy from a reputable breeder. Two of my rescues had toes turning in and it was obviously from a problem in the shoulder area. I did not keep them long enough to observe later problems.

Getting enough bone builders should help. By this I mean raw meaty bones. Or, at least raw bones as a chew toy. You can also add some vitamin C (Thompson's buffered crystals) as it aids in reducing inflammation as well as bone building.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Michigan Gal said:


> This is why people are warned to buy from a reputable breeder. Two of my rescues had toes turning in and it was obviously from a problem in the shoulder area. I did not keep them long enough to observe later problems.


Every dog has flaws. Even ones from good breeders.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Michigan Gal said:


> This is why people are warned to buy from a reputable breeder. Two of my rescues had toes turning in and it was obviously from a problem in the shoulder area. I did not keep them long enough to observe later problems.
> 
> Getting enough bone builders should help. By this I mean raw meaty bones. Or, at least raw bones as a chew toy. You can also add some vitamin C (Thompson's buffered crystals) as it aids in reducing inflammation as well as bone building.


This sounds like a premature assumption. I'm pretty sure Annie was from a good breeder. There is no evidence of an issue currently, just a potential concern. From what I understand breeders aim for feet that point straight. But dogs are often finished before they fill out, so my guess is that a dog with straight feet at 1 yr may turn in a little if their chest broadens as they mature.


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## Salem (Apr 9, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> Every dog has flaws. Even ones from good breeders.


I think they just mean getting a dog from a reputable breeder means less chances of health concerns.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What an observant vet! I’m glad Annie’s in such good hands.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Michigan Gal said:


> This is why people are warned to buy from a reputable breeder. Two of my rescues had toes turning in and it was obviously from a problem in the shoulder area. I did not keep them long enough to observe later problems.
> 
> Getting enough bone builders should help. By this I mean raw meaty bones. Or, at least raw bones as a chew toy. You can also add some vitamin C (Thompson's buffered crystals) as it aids in reducing inflammation as well as bone building.



CKC champion parents, OFA testing done, breeder is a poodle club member  Her littermate finished in less than 3 weekends, and her breeder at 1 year said Annie had a nicer face than her sister but her sister had a better structure, and Annie was likely showable. She did fill out a lot from 1 year to now. Not every dog in a conformation-bred litter will have perfect conformation, that's why not all of them are show quality. A good breeder is not a guarantee of no issues, just a better chance, but if some minor confirmation issues are the worst problems I have, I will be a very happy poodle owner!

Currently she gets meal replacement bones or beef trachea 1-2x per week for the tooth cleaning benefits.



PeggyTheParti said:


> What an observant vet! I’m glad Annie’s in such good hands.


She is fantastic. I drive 2 hrs to see her and it's more than worth it.


I played with Annie a bit outside this afternoon and will try to figure out how to upload or share a video.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I played with Annie a bit outside this afternoon and will try to figure out how to upload or share a video.


Vimeo is super fast and easy. Upload there and then you can copy and paste the link into PF.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> -------
> 
> Currently she gets meal replacement bones or beef trachea 1-2x per week for the tooth cleaning benefits.
> 
> ...


I would offer a word of caution about tracheas. It's possible that having them often can raise a dog's thyroid levels, due to the fact that most beef tracheas don't have the thyroid gland removed before drying. Got Gullet?

I use YouTube for videos. Just upload it, and then copy and paste the link code into your post here.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

TeamHellhound said:


> I would offer a word of caution about tracheas. It's possible that having them often can raise a dog's thyroid levels, due to the fact that most beef tracheas don't have the thyroid gland removed before drying. Got Gullet?
> 
> I use YouTube for videos. Just upload it, and then copy and paste the link code into your post here.


Good point about tracheas. The trachea i feed is raw with the thyroid gland removed. A bigger source of concern is the turkey necks I also occasionally feed which likely do include the thyroid gland. I do my best to rotate so she isn't eating a neck-part more than once a month or so. Beef knee caps, beef trachea, beef brisket, turkey wing, turkey neck - whatever I can get at the local raw store that is chicken and duck free


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

And - here are videos of her walking/running. It looks like she does curve her front feet in a bit while trotting if you watch at half speed.











Thoughts?

(hard to believe we had 3" of snow this morning!)


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Watching her trot at 41-42 sec, it looks like she curls her front feet in, but I don't see that it goes up towards her shoulders.

Mia gets green lipped mussels and Glycoflex 3 (another glucosamine & chondroitin chew already mentioned above). It's overkill. She prefers the GLM, which I serve with fish oil since it's a powder. The small jar lasts over 1 month (still counting), while the large jar lasts about 10 weeks.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> And - here are videos of her walking/running. It looks like she does curve her front feet in a bit while trotting if you watch at half speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree I can see some turn in while walking, though all dogs will angle legs inward towards a single track as they walk so it may not be as much as it appears. But I am seeing inward turning from the pastern. I would like to see her at an athletic weight. I wonder if slimming her down would also slim down her chest enough to impact it. I agree she does look on the bulky side right now. I prefer dogs at athletic weight so my feelings may be a bit overkill but I do think you are right that your mom is over feeding. Taking weight off will certainly lessen the strain on her joints. I do not think it is a big concern, as her structure is generally very nice and athletic. It is super common for dogs to have some turn in or turn out.

I don't know your relationship with her breeder, but personally I might ask what the breeder thinks. She may have seen this exact turn in before and know if it caused any issues. And she may appreciate knowing that she may need to evaluate her dogs' pasterns carefully.


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

Starla said:


> Diego takes doggie dailies advanced hip and joint. I don’t know if it would prevent arthritis, but I don’t think it would hurt to start a supplement like this one. Starla loved them too.
> 
> how many per day do you give her?


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Diego gets 4 per day because he’s ~50 lbs. Starla only got half of one, not every day, because they’re labeled as not for dogs under 6 months. She got them for being good, sitting patiently, while Diego took his pills. 😉 There’s also a peanut butter flavor without chicken in it.


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

Starla said:


> Diego gets 4 per day because he’s ~50 lbs. Starla only got half of one, not every day, because they’re labeled as not for dogs under 6 months. She got them for being good, sitting patiently, while Diego took his pills. 😉 There’s also a peanut butter flavor without chicken in it.


Thank you. There are so many different supplements in this thread alone it’s overwhelming. My girl is 7 and had both knees done for torn cruciate ligament. I see her struggling some days and not happy with the vet recommendation for fish oil. It’d like to find something others have had success with.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Beaches1 said:


> Thank you. There are so many different supplements in this thread alone it’s overwhelming. My girl is 7 and had both knees done for torn cruciate ligament. I see her struggling some days and not happy with the vet recommendation for fish oil. It’d like to find something others have had success with.


There are a lot of recommendations but many of them contain the same supplements. Glucosamine and chondroitin are the two main ones and they maintain cartilage health. Green lipped mussel contains these and also reduces inflammation. Turmeric contains a compound called curcumin that also reduces inflammation. So those are the main supplements you'll see discussed. Fish oil is good but I'm very surprised your vet isn't recommending something more.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I agree I can see some turn in while walking, though all dogs will angle legs inward towards a single track as they walk so it may not be as much as it appears. But I am seeing inward turning from the pastern. I would like to see her at an athletic weight. I wonder if slimming her down would also slim down her chest enough to impact it. I agree she does look on the bulky side right now. I prefer dogs at athletic weight so my feelings may be a bit overkill but I do think you are right that your mom is over feeding. Taking weight off will certainly lessen the strain on her joints. I do not think it is a big concern, as her structure is generally very nice and athletic. It is super common for dogs to have some turn in or turn out.
> 
> I don't know your relationship with her breeder, but personally I might ask what the breeder thinks. She may have seen this exact turn in before and know if it caused any issues. And she may appreciate knowing that she may need to evaluate her dogs' pasterns carefully.


Agree with the preference for an athletic weight.
Vet said 3 lbs off and I would like to see 5 lbs off. Especially since she is so active. 

Have been having this argument with my mother for MONTHS about if Annie needs to lose weight. Tried showing body condition charts, rule of thumb ways to tell, etc. 'she is fine'. (Insert ranting about the half a dozen ways I have tried to change how we feed dogs). I can change things for a day, maybe 3, then it's back to no-measuring. Hopefully with the vet backup I can get my mom more onboard with the dog-weightloss program. 

Thank you for the reassurance about the degree of 'oddness'. I couldn't find any info about turned in toes online, except for one alarmist Ask a Vet piece, that suggested splinting so hearing a slightly inward point is fairly common is reassuring. 

Once I am vaccinated/covid restrictions lift I plan to head down and take Annie for a visit with Annie's breeder again. I can ask structure questions about her feet then - probably sometime this summer.


So -tentative plan is to try and get Annie slimmer and add in a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement and possibly try and add fish or greenlipped mussels to her diet (many forms of fish make her throw up but a few don't).


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

You have probably already tried this, but I keep a scoop that is the exact amount needed in with the food. If your mom's preference is a rounded scoop, well then size down a bit. You can get just about any size scoop you could ever want at a kitchen store. Perhaps your mom would agree to this plan because it is simple and doesn't complicate her life...

Good luck! I loved your Annie videos. She is beautiful and looks like a lot of fun. I don't have too much to add to your question about turning in, but it looks like you've already gotten some good advice about that.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Newport said:


> You have probably already tried this, but I keep a scoop that is the exact amount needed in with the food. If your mom's preference is a rounded scoop, well then size down a bit. You can get just about any size scoop you could ever want at a kitchen store. Perhaps your mom would agree to this plan because it is simple and doesn't complicate her life...
> 
> Good luck! I loved your Annie videos. She is beautiful and looks like a lot of fun. I don't have too much to add to your question about turning in, but it looks like you've already gotten some good advice about that.


That's a good idea. You could even go a step further and pre-prepare portions that you leave for your mom to feed Annie. That way you could prevent access to the larger quantity and there would be no doubt on what she's getting. I'd just say the vet recommended doing this to make it easier to keep track of how much she is eating.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Beaches1 said:


> Thank you. There are so many different supplements in this thread alone it’s overwhelming. My girl is 7 and had both knees done for torn cruciate ligament. I see her struggling some days and not happy with the vet recommendation for fish oil. It’d like to find something others have had success with.


My old RottiX had a partially torn cruciate at 2, healed with meds and rest thankfully. But definitely struggled at times afterwards- especially in winter or bad weather. I started her on UbaVet Plus and that made a huge difference, eventually I did have to start using Metacam when she was 8 or 9 occasionally, then daily closer to 10.
I think the UbaVet Power Meg is an even more advanced formula but it hadn't come out yet back then.


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

Starvt said:


> My old RottiX had a partially torn cruciate at 2, healed with meds and rest thankfully. But definitely struggled at times afterwards- especially in winter or bad weather. I started her on UbaVet Plus and that made a huge difference, eventually I did have to start using Metacam when she was 8 or 9 occasionally, then daily closer to 10.
> I think the UbaVet Power Meg is an even more advanced formula but it hadn't come out yet back then.


thank you all for your suggestions. I will look into a couple of these. Just need her to be comfortable. ☺


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

@Raindrops - Preportioning is a good idea. I may try that next. 



Newport said:


> You have probably already tried this, but I keep a scoop that is the exact amount needed in with the food. If your mom's preference is a rounded scoop, well then size down a bit. You can get just about any size scoop you could ever want at a kitchen store. Perhaps your mom would agree to this plan because it is simple and doesn't complicate her life...
> 
> Good luck! I loved your Annie videos. She is beautiful and looks like a lot of fun. I don't have too much to add to your question about turning in, but it looks like you've already gotten some good advice about that.


Yup! Tried scoops. Tried a measuring cup with marks on it. Also tried being the one to feed which lasts a few days before she takes over again because the bowl is empty. She then just takes the bowl and uses that as a scoop because the scoop is too much effort ??? Or feeds the serving and then when the dish is empty, feeds another bowl full because obviously the dogs are hungry or because Trixie is bugging her. Gah. 

One of the more successful things has been reducing the size of Annie's food bowl and Trixie's dish. They eat from plates that 'look full' now.

I think a large part of the issue is a perception of portion sizes, despite going over what the bag says and what a serving looks like. Our last big dog was a St. Bernard (I think she ate 5-6 cups per day), the dogs before that were outdoor border collies who ran 5-8 hrs per day.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I was talking with a friend yesterday. She recently adopted a senior dog with arthritis, and took him to a holistic vet weekly who uses acupuncture and holistic meds with much success.





























I'll get to you later today if you're interested in the names of the medicine.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Vita said:


> I was talking with a friend yesterday. She recently adopted a senior dog with arthritis, and took him to a holistic vet weekly who uses acupuncture and holistic meds with much success.
> 
> View attachment 476003
> 
> ...



Good for your friend. I am always really happy to hear about people who take in older animals and give them the care they deserve  

It would be interesting to hear what the vet prescribed - I think one of the other commenters was struggling with active arthritis? Annie doesn't have arthritis yet, just a slightly increased chance so I am unlikely to start meds until I am sure there is an issue, just want to set her up to reduce the chance.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Here are the two Chinese herbal medicines prescribed for her 12 y/o rescue mix that's half boxer and half Staffy.. It's a holistic veterinary practice in Northern Virgina, and they also have been giving him acupuncture. I had never seriously considered holistic medicine or looked at a vet site for this, but it looks interesting (link). My friend said her dog has come a long way in health improvement. I saw him on Zoom and for elderly dog, he looked _good_.

The one named *Xiao Chai Hu Tang* _"is a traditional Chinese herbal formula also called Minor Bupleurum Decoction. It is made from a combination of seven Chinese herbs: One of my main uses of this formula is for cancer. In addition I have used it for some forms of liver failure and inflammation, inflammatory kidney disease and failure, disc disease, Addison’s disease, certain autoimmune diseases, gastrointestinal disorders, some forms of incontinence and hind leg weakness and some stress related diseases. This formula is one of the most researched in the world for cancer..."_ (link)










The second one she uses is *Thorne Meriva 500-SF* which contains Curcumin. The 'SF' stands for Slow Release. I googled and it _"is the main active ingredient in turmeric. It has powerful anti-inflammatory effects and is a very strong antioxidant"_. Here's the company write up (link) and it can be purchased here at Amazon (has all 5-Star reviews) and other stores.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Vita said:


> Here are the two Chinese herbal medicines prescribed for her 12 y/o rescue mix that's half boxer and half Staffy.. It's a holistic veterinary practice in Northern Virgina, and they also have been giving him acupuncture. I had never seriously considered holistic medicine or looked at a vet site for this, but it looks interesting (link). My friend said her dog has come a long way in health improvement. I saw him on Zoom and for elderly dog, he looked _good_.


I sure wish we had vets here that used other complimentary healing techniques. We only have normal Western trained vets. I would also love to have a dog chiropractor. Any larger cities are 3.5 hours away.


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