# Shaping Puppy Cut? (with photos)



## mom24doggies

tortoise said:


> I have never done show cuts before and I'm not that good at scissoring. I am trying to shape and grow my mpoo puppy into an AKC puppy cut. He is 4 months old now, the AKC show I am interested entering in is in 3 months.
> 
> ***Please forgive the background mess, we are remodeling our kitchen!***
> 
> 
> Puppy Cut Hind Legs by tortoise11, on Flickr
> 
> I don't like the really angled and box-y butts in some of the photos I've seen online of winning puppies. I don't know if my interpretation is OK?
> 
> My puppy doesn't have much neck hair. Can I adjust for that by shortening everything else?


 What a cutie!! I'm not an expert on the show trims, so take everything I say with a grain of salt, but IMO you need to take his butt and back leg angles shorter. Probably quite a bit shorter, actually. The angles I've been told to follow are: 30 degrees along the pelvis bones, 60 degrees from the point of rump to the bend in the stifle, and then 30 degrees from the bend in the stifle to the hock. I'll let other people who are more knowledgable tell you more.


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## CharismaticMillie

If you want to show AKC and look like you know what you're doing/have a legitimate chance at winning you will need to tighten up this trim quite a bit. The boxy rears that you are talking about are done to show off the poodle's angulation. Judges will be used to seeing this and I would imagine would not look closely at a dog that is not in proper puppy show trim.

You want to scissor the rear at a 30 degree angle (the pelvis area) and then scissor straight down the back of the thigh very, very close to the leg, stopping when you get to the place where the back leg bends when you lift it. Do not touch hock hair.

Then, go back and scissor the topline level. The crest of long neck hair will begin in the visual midsection of the dog once you have tightened up both the front of the dog and the rear of the dog.


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## catsaqqara

The chest should be scissored(could be clipped) so that it is at the same height as the elbows. The back of the leg from the pin bone to the bend should be shaved short possibly 1/4in, not sure for a mini puppy. Be sure to not cut into the hair on the side of the leg if your using clippers (I held the hair down and away). It looks like for minis the top line is scissored at an angle from the neck hair to the pin bone(with boxy angle). 

From these points the coat is blended, and you can do what you want with the area by the tail though a shelf is usually created by scissoring the hair but you could probably round it off.

I practiced this cut while Jaden was a puppy with the advice of his breeder. 

This is what he might look like, it's hard to see his structure


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## Arborgale

Oh my gosh!!! What a cutie! Is that a little TK? 

I'm no expert, so I can't give any advice, except to say that I think he looks wonderful and I look forward to hearing the comments and seeing your results. My mpoo will be 4 months on Friday and getting fluffier by the day. I was wondering how much fluff is too much and when to start to trim? I have never scissored and I'm a bit nervous, but I really want to learn. Is the whole cut scissored? Do you use a ruler to measure depth of fur?

Best of luck to you!


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## tortoise

Yes, that's a baby TK. I have to use styling wax and re-set it every day. I'm learning to tease out the "bubble."

Thank you for the instructions and the photoshop picture! :adore: I did not realize that the hair would be so short on the back of the leg. Good news is that I haven't cut too short or ruined it (yet).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

When Quincy had his puppy cut, his bum, at the base of the tail was so short you could nearly see skin. From the pin bone to the hawk is scissored out to almost nothing.


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## Indiana

He is absolutely adorable!!


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## lavillerose

The shape of his body is going to change A LOT in three months! It's hard to start from here. I agree with what others have said about the rear. At this age, most people showing don't do much except to shape the rear because you're going to have another 1.5+ of growth in 3 months anyway.

One thing I'm seeing though, is that you want to really tighten up the neck area, the parts beside and beneath his shaved throat and under the ears. Leaving it long there makes them look like they have no neck. Just the under side, leave the topknot and crest along the top half alone; young pups at their first show are not expected to have a big huge mane yet.

It might be the way he's standing too (his forelegs are way out front, they should be straight up under him), but he's looking long in the body. Taking it short on the rear like people have said, and tightening up the throat area will really help square him up.


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## tortoise

I think the longess is from the way he was standing. He was turned enough that some of that fluff is from his far shoulder.

I did some more trimming today. I used Big Sexy Hair Root Pump (mousse) on him and blew him out first. What a difference! He wasn't "stuck together" loke and over-sprayed show dog. But there was enough lift that I could scissor easily. I love the scent. 

He looked great - more angled and finished - on the grooming table, but after a few hours of play and free time, not looking so great. And his posture is awful as soon as I move away from him. I don't know how to stack or how to train him to stack.


Second Cut by tortoise11, on Flickr

I have never trimmed on his front/chest. I trimmed a little to bring up the bottom between his legs and right in front of that. I thought I would be leaving all of it to grow into Continental? The hair on his chest is about 3 inches long.

How about looking down? The puppy cut is the only on that I don't have a from-the-top grooming diagram for. My puppy has big "hips" viewed from above. What should it look like?


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Here is my mini at her first show at 8mons(no shows when she was 6mons) so you can see a puppy trim on a mini. Dont worry about grooming for the continental now.. The second pic is of her at 11mons old.. we left a bit more hair on her as we were going to put her in a continental when we got home and we wanted decent rosettes.

He needs more confidence I think.. Here is a candid of my bitch on the table.. she is a very confident girl.. sometimes too confident lol. Cant you have someone take the pic while you stack him? You want the front feet under the shoulders and the front of the rear feet just past the rump as seen on the first pic.


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## ladybird

I'm interested to know exactly how to shape the puppy clip as well. How long should the hair be on the back of the legs, just above the hocks?

Here's Nimbus from last week, I'm going to shape him better next time and take it shorter on the back of his shoulders, more like the modern clip


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## Fluffyspoos

You inspired me to attempt this as well, so I tried on Cairo last night


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## mom24doggies

Fluffyspoos said:


> You inspired me to attempt this as well, so I tried on Cairo last night


 Oooh, Cairo is BEAUTIFUL!!! I love his color.  I think the groom is pretty, too!

ladybird, Nimbus is such a pretty boy!! IMO, you still need to take his rear end angles shorter, a lot shorter...on most poodles I do, (that get any kind of scissoring) I take the bend in their leg down almost to the skin...on some, you can see skin, depending on how much angulation they have. Take a look at Cairo, that's kind of what you should be aiming for. His neck area would need shortening, too. It looks to me like he has enough hair to look nice in a modern trim.  Have fun!!


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## tortoise

Cairo looks good! 

I groomed Jet again this morning. Tried to stack him and my 4-yr-old took the photo!


Third Cut by tortoise11, on Flickr


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## lavillerose

Cairo looks wonderful!! Oh, I love reds. Don't tell Albi, that's the color I dreamed of having before I got her...

Tortoise, see how tight the scissoring is right at the tail area on Cairo? You can really go to town on it there. Angulation of the rear end is really important to see, even in the puppy cut. You don't have to go for the super pointy butt look, but judges do want to be able to see what's going on under the hair when the dog moves. And I wouldn't worry about not having enough when the show comes along, it will grow!


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## catsaqqara

For the continental cut the hair is still cut to be at the same height as the elbows. Show grooming is supposed to present the dog as adhering to the breed standard. If your dog has proper conformation the chest between the legs is cut very short because its in the right place. If the dog has a shallow chest I'm not sure what show people typically do. As an artist its more visually appealing to still cut the shallow chest short because it lengthens the legs(puppy cut), same for an elbow that's too low. Hair left longer here shortens the legs. (2 lines because I'm not sure where his elbow is)

Cutting the back of the leg very short shows off the rear angulation, if the hair is left longer here then the leg looks like is has improper angulation. The toes should not be in front of the pin bone(the hair on the pin bone). But the dog should be stacked so that the hock is at a 90 degree angle to the floor. The hair is shaved short above the red line in the pic. 

My personal opinion on the hair just above the hock, I like to blend at more of a straight line form the hock to the bend of the knee. But I think a lot of people like to take it shorter.

The area in front of the tail is cut very short to show a longer neck, if the hair is left long here then the dog looks like it has no neck. Its also to show the base of the tail, when the hair is longer the tail looks like it is low set. Your resent picture is big improvement, but it looks like his back is roached. 

Also the tuck up is important, right now it looks great. The shortest part should be near the bellybutton and then blended into the leg. This helps to shorten the body.


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## Fluffyspoos

Thanks ladies! It looks good profile, but I need to take his sides down more, he looks really wide from above (which is the only way I'm seeing him..)

I have Vegas in a tighter version of this clip, though even as tight as it seems, he's a standard so there's about 5-6 neck and topknot hair there and 3-4 on his chest and shoulders.
This was a couple weeks ago, we have a looot more hair now.










I know more about grooming than I do about conformation, basically I just do what I think looks good to me. Lately I've been focusing on rears, and angulating pretty much every dog with longer legs that I've groomed. I hate that straight legged look for the back. Your groom is coming along good, tortise! Though you want to try and take the topline more straight to avoid making your puppy look roach backed (which can give the illusion of shyness.)










I'm still learning how to sculpt a chest accurately, so I'll let other members do that part.


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## ladybird

Here's Nimbus' groom for today!

Wet after his bath:











Brushed and blow-dried:











Shaved and clipped:











What do you think of this puppy clip?


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## CharismaticMillie

Personally, this is the puppy trim I prefer, as opposed to the very steep topline that Fluffyspoos drew. Fluffyspoos' lines are definitely seen on many puppy trims, but I do prefer a level topline instead. Here is a nice example:

ETA: I also added a few of Tiger. He had a tight puppy trim with a topline that was scissored fairly level. (A little more of an angle than the black puppy.)

What you achieve with a tight puppy trim is the illusion of a longer neck and a leggier dog. I've seen plenty in the show ring with that very angled topline but, to me, they look like hairy no-necked gorillas when they go around the ring. I like to see the topline scissored level until the midsection. At the mid section, the neck hair begins.


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## mom24doggies

I'm with CM, I prefer the puppy cut with a more level top line, I think it's prettier. Nice job on Nimbus, he looks beautiful! Only a couple of things stand out to me: I would prefer to see a more level top line and IMO his throat area needs to be tightened a litte; you want to take that area as short as possible (without making him look silly  ) so that he looks square. To give them a chest, you cut into the area where the front legs join with the body...I'll try to fine some pics of Trev when he was in a modern so you can see what I'm talking about...and when you stack him, bring his front legs more under his body. I had to train Trev out of doing what Nimbus does, too...they automatically move their front feet out a lot of times.  I guess it's easier or something.


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## mom24doggies

Well, I couldn't find the exact photo I was looking for, but you can kind of see what I'm talking about as far as the chest in this one. 

And I drew some lines on Nimbus...sorry, I'm a HORRIBLE drawer, especially on Paint. But at least you sort of get the idea...those lines are mostly correct, although the front of the stifle isn't quite right; I could make that line right with scissors, but not a pencil.  I also was having a hard time seeing where Nimbus' elbow was, so his chest may need to go a little shorter. Basically you take the chest hair to the elbow. The green lines you see are the correct ones, I decided to change them _after_ I couldn't erase it.  Hope that was somewhat helpful.


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## ladybird

Oohh thanks for the lines!!
his elbow is right at his chest, I'd have to cut his chest hair to nothing which it almost is already (1/4" hair on his underside)


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## ladybird

Here's Nimbus' clip tidied up a bit more! How have I done?


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## Fluffyspoos

Yeah the tighter clip with the topline is what I was going for with Vegas


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## mom24doggies

ladybird said:


> Here's Nimbus' clip tidied up a bit more! How have I done?


 Very nice, it looks good! You do nice scissoring considering the fact that Nimbus still has puppy coat!! That stuff is sooo hard to work with sometimes. I think you did great on his chest.  It might perhaps need a little more defining, but that will come with time and practice...I'm still not very good at that part, for some reason it's hard for me. <sigh> Nimbus stacks nicely without being held, too...I can get Trev to hold still and hold his tail up, but if I let go of his head, he lets it drop and looks at me. :argh: Anyways, again, Nimbus looks really beautiful!!  He'll be the talk of all his doggie friends now.


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## CharismaticMillie

The one thing I would do to Nimbus's trim is to move his tuckup further forward. Right now it is too far back and makes him appear unbalanced. The tuckup should be closer toward the midsection, not at the natural tuckup.


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## ladybird

I'm still a beginner, I end up scissoring him here-and-there as I notice out-of-place hairs after the grooming session! His puppy coat isn't bad, its kind of springy, holds shape fairly well until it reaches about 5 inches and then it flops around too much. I got him to stack like that by first placing his feet where I wanted them, then Andy helped me look in the right direction by getting his attention at the other side of the room. Usually he looks at his feet while I'm grooming!
Could his chest be shorter still on the front? I tried to make it go straight down from his neck but I guess it could still be tighter

p.s. CM - I realise that now! I'll have to let the whole area around his stifle and tuck-up grow out again


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

tortoise said:


> I have never done show cuts before and I'm not that good at scissoring. I am trying to shape and grow my mpoo puppy into an AKC puppy cut. He is 4 months old now, the AKC show I am interested entering in is in 3 months.
> 
> I don't like the really angled and box-y butts in some of the photos I've seen online of winning puppies. I don't know if my interpretation is OK?
> 
> My puppy doesn't have much neck hair. Can I adjust for that by shortening everything else?


Dear Tortoise;
The purpose of a show groom is *not* to look like *everyone else* but to *show off* your poodles *good points* while *minimizing* the *faults*. There is not a one size fit all shape.
Do you have a mentor or access to a mentor?
A mentor or show groomer can help you figure out what to empathize and what to hide. 
Is this your first show dog?
Good luck and what a gorgeous puppy.


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## 3dogs

If you are interested in Pro groomers & many show their dogs AKC as well I can hook you up on Face Book at "Critique Your Groom". They are really awesome. If you go to the GroomTeam USA website, many of those members are on the FB page. Also American groom is a bit different than European groom so state that you want to show AKC. There was a HUGE discussion & very heated as well on the very topic of "topline" & angulation. So, much to learn.


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## tokipoke

3dogs said:


> If you are interested in Pro groomers & many show their dogs AKC as well I can hook you up on Face Book at "Critique Your Groom". They are really awesome. If you go to the GroomTeam USA website, many of those members are on the FB page. Also American groom is a bit different than European groom so state that you want to show AKC. There was a HUGE discussion & very heated as well on the very topic of "topline" & angulation. So, much to learn.


This thread made me think of the poodle topline saga on the group lol. When I read this thread I thought "Not again!"


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## tortoise

I keep working on it! I got a chance to take some photos of him playing in the snow. None of them are stacked, but I think they're a better example than on a grooming table. I like dogs in motion!


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## CharismaticMillie

Looks good! Just take some hair off under the dog (underneath/bottom chest) and your pup will look amazing and leggy! The hair should be very, very close to the skin. Maybe 1/2 to an inch on a standard poodle - not sure the length on a little guy.


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## tortoise

Thank you. I did my first attempt on his front legs this past week.

I didn't realize it should be so short. It is probably 1/2" on this little guy.

I read a comment about shaping the chest where a groomer was talking about not "exposing the elbow". If I take it higher would I have that problem? I can't really picture it.

Does anyone have a photo of the front view of where the chest and legs meet? I've got this funny line thing going on. Trying to reconcile "unbroken line" from the breed standard puppy cut description with the "chest cutting into the front of the leg hair". I could use some up-close help on that part!


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## CharismaticMillie

Here are some photos of Tiger in puppy trim. He was freshly scissored in most these photos. His scissoring underneath is extremely close.


ETA: I added one that is somewhat straight on.


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## tortoise

Oh, I think I cut WAY too far into the front of the leg. But I have a really hard time stacking him without his front legs too far out. Maybe I should work on training him to stack and let that grow out a bit so I can fix it.

Thank you millions for the photos, especially the front view. I have it all wrong.


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## tortoise

These show how far I cut into his leg space. His chest is very short - but it doesn't look like it! The second picture shows that line - straight across. Not shaped like your photos.


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## CharismaticMillie

Of course!

I don't necessarily think you cut too far into the front legs. I assume you mean the under the chest area? Some handlers will hack right in their and then let the hair fill in. What that does is help aid the appearance of the front legs being set back properly. 

Anway, I think you should just let a tiny bit of hair grow in there and blend in with the front and it will be fine in that spot. 

I'm a newbie too and you should see what happened the first time I tried to put a friend's puppy into a show trim. LOL. Thankfully I had a skilled handler to do the show grooming on my boy. Also, remember every handler has their own style so Tiger's variation of the puppy trim is not the only correct variation.


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## 3dogs

Tokipoke- I loved that thread about the Topline & grooming. It really is amazing the different interpretations of the breed standard & how to do the "Puppy Cut". Found it fascinating.


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## tortoise

Groom March 3, 2012 by tortoise11, on Flickr

I tightened it up all over and have been working on chest and topline. Hocks, front of hing legs, crest/mane and topknot are all growing out.


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## 3dogs

Starting to really take shape now. Really enjoying it & hope the coat continues to grow so nicely.


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## Fluffyspoos

It's looking GREAT!


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