# To Breed or Not to Breed... that is the question..



## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

So... Snoops and I spent a few days in New Orleans. We had a great time! We also never expected that he would find a girlfriend.. what luck!

As you all may know, Snoops is due to be neutered *this* Wednesday. I have felt really torn about this.. not only because I am worried for the little guy, but also because I feel so bad about taking away his "manhood". 
I've never really thought about breeding him... but this weekend we met the perfect little girl named Dee. 

What are the pro's and con's to this? If I breed him once, then have him neutered how will this affect him, if any?

If anyone has any comments or suggestions, I would love to hear from you!

As for Dee, she is a light tiny toy apricot poodle, about 5lbs, just had her first heat and will be in heat again in another month. She seemed to have a great attitude and gentle disposition.. 

We just happened to run into her at a dog friendly restaurant in the French Quarter.. the place was great! Dogs are actually allowed INSIDE the restaurant  Hooray!


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Here is the adorable couple.. Snoops (notice his hair is growing back!  yay!!)

Snoops with Dee and her owner... :kiss:


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Snoops is adorable and so is Dee, but I don't quite understand the reason you want to breed. I don't mean to be a snob, but the only reason to breed (in my opinion) is to improve the said breed. If I ever bred, I would first want to show and champion my dog, do all the required health testing to make sure I am not breeding potential health problems and only then breed. 

Also, with Dee being only 5 lbs she might have problems delivering the litter of puppies and might require c-section. Would you and the co-breeder be prepaired for that kind of expense?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Poodle Lover said:


> Snoops is adorable and so is Dee, but I don't quite understand the reason you want to breed. I don't mean to be a snob, but the only reason to breed (in my opinion) is to improve the said breed. If I ever bred, I would first want to show and champion my dog, do all the required health testing to make sure I am not breeding potential health problems and only then breed.
> 
> Also, with Dee being only 5 lbs she might have problems delivering the litter of puppies and might require c-section. Would you and the co-breeder be prepaired for that kind of expense?



I agree , i also do not believe in just breeding because you have a intacted dog. I would only breed the dog if health test or had some kind of title to prove its of breeding stock.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I don't breed, but here are some things I've been told about stud dogs:

they mark
more likely to fight with other males
more likely to hump
aren't as affectionate with their owners

I don't know how true those are, but I wouldn't risk it, unless I was serious about breeding. Also, contrary to popular belief, neutering doesn't solve all behavior problems after they've become habit. 

You also have to worry about brucellosis (sp?) and injury during breeding. I've been told it's not a good idea to breed two inexperienced dogs together either. 

Of course you also have to worry about C-sections, possible death of the mother and/or pups and passing along genetic defects. With all the poodles in need of homes, I don't see any reason to bred any poodle, unless they are a true asset to the breed. Yes your boy is adorable and sweet, but so are many of those homeless dogs. 

The main reason, I decided not to breed my dog was b/c I didn't want to be responsible for finding them good homes. How would you know you weren't selling a pup to a puppymill? Since you don't own the female, this would be even more difficult and those millers can be really convincing. What if the new puppy owners don't care for the pups properly? What if one of the pups gets sick? What if their kid/niece/nephew/grandchild accidently hurts the pup? I have a friend who had one litter of pugs. One of the pups developed parvo after going to his new home. His new owners were longtime family friends she thought she could trust, but they wouldn't/didn't take the pup to the vet. She ended up taking the pup back and payed for the treatment herself. Parvo treatment isn't cheap and there's no guarantee the pup will survive. Plus she ended up with an extra dog she didn't plan on.


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> Snoops is adorable and so is Dee, but I don't quite understand the reason you want to breed. I don't mean to be a snob, but the only reason to breed (in my opinion) is to improve the said breed. If I ever bred, I would first want to show and champion my dog, do all the required health testing to make sure I am not breeding potential health problems and only then breed.
> 
> Also, with Dee being only 5 lbs she might have problems delivering the litter of puppies and might require c-section. Would you and the co-breeder be prepaired for that kind of expense?


Thanks for all the replies.. I love poodle forum! I can always count on everyone here...

It's not that I am interested to become a breeder, nor am I on a quest to "create" a perfect specimen... honestly, I just want Snoops to have a "natural" experience that I think every boy should have at least once in their life...

My boyfriend and I are discussing the pro's and con's, and of course.. take into consideration what everyone here in PF have to say. I will need to speak with Dee's owner more in length...

I've expressed a concern about Dee's size - I do realize that C-sections and problems could crop up. We live in 2 different states, so I would need to be sure that Dee's owner is prepared for this. It seems a relative or close friend of his is a breeder (that's where Dee came from).


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> If I ever bred, I would first want to show and champion my dog, do all the required health testing to make sure I am not breeding potential health problems and only then breed.


I agree with poodle lover... I wouldn't breed any dog that hasn't been shown, championed (if that's even a word!?!) and health tested. There are just too many dogs without homes already... and if you're going to spread the breed's genes... it should only be the best of the best.
Besides, I would never breed my dog to anyone's dog I've just randomly met somewhere.


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## Agilestandard (May 29, 2009)

I just wanted to add that she will not be in Heat in the next month. More like 4-5 months. Also (no offense) but you have no idea what that dog has. Brucellosis is scary. Plus Toy poodles need to be have many things tested. You wouldn't want to be responsible for a toy poodle(s) in pain due to luxating patellas or blind due to progressive retinal atrophy. Think about it, if Snoops were your furless child would you want him sleeping with something he found in a bar in New Orleans?:questionmark: It is not all about *the perfect poodle* but a HEALTHY poodle

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=PO+&variety=TOY

Some symptoms of brucellosis that may manifest themselves and are not gender related are: 
Arthritis, disc disease (paralysis sometimes occurs), fever, hind limb weakness, lethargy, decreased tolerances to exercise. Dry dull coats, swelling of the lymph nodes, eye inflammation.


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Agilestandard said:


> Think about it, if Snoops were your furless child would you want him sleeping with something he found in a bar in New Orleans?:questionmark: It is not all about *the perfect poodle* but a HEALTHY poodle


Hahahaha! :lol: Ok.. that statement put it all in perspective!

Everyone has made extremely valid points.. thanks to all for being so honest. This is the stuff that I need to hear. If anyone else has their 2 cents to add, I would love to hear more opinions. 

Snoops is disappointed.. he was so close. I guess I will take him to Build-a-Bear to cheer him up...


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

I just found these articles:

[URL="http://en.allexperts.com/q/Poodles-2529/toy-poodle-heat-breeding.htm"]http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html[/URL]

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Poodles-2529/toy-poodle-heat-breeding.htm


YIKES! :shocked:


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

cuddleparty said:


> Snoops is disappointed.. he was so close. I guess I will take him to Build-a-Bear to cheer him up...


You might want to get him a permanent playmate instead, I bet he would love that. :biggrin:


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

LOL! About the build-a-bear LOL!! You love him so much I can tell, and take it from me...listen to poodle lover and all the others advising against it. I have toys as well and are so many people out there breeding their dogs and have done NO genetic testing on them. It would hurt you to know that if you breed him and even one of his pups presented with a problem that could have been prevented by testing and altering, I get the feeling you would feel horrible. Plus the risk to him as well for the problems he can get from her if she is not tested. Neutering is also the best way to protect Snoops from getting testiclular cancer, it really is healthier for him if he is not tested.


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## Finghin (Apr 16, 2009)

I agree with everyone, but the only thing I have to comment on is "taking away his manhood". Dogs don't notice that sort of thing, sure, after his surgery he'll notice something is different, but he certainly won't go 'oh no! I'm ruined!' 
We have a ton of customers that come into the store saying they won't neuter their dog because they think it takes away from his masculinity. The dog will still be the same dog afterwards he just won't be as susceptible to cancer and may even be better behaved. 
So really, don't let that thought hold you back.


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## Jenspoo (Mar 25, 2009)

This is kinda of funny..30 years ago my mother had toys and one 'looked' perfect he was black and real pretty but he was a demon, acted horrible!!! anyhoo someone begged her to breed and she had no idea what she was getting into knew nothing. I guess she was shocked LOL!! She did get a puppy out of the mating but she never breed them after that. 

I wouldn't do it just because the male can be hurt in the process. My toy is fixed and he still has his 'maleness'. Never acted different that I could tell. I will be getting the spoo fixed asap too.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

I agree with everyone's remarks. I think thought should go into the purchasing of possible breeders so as to be sure you are getting both loving companions and healthy, breedable animals. I think that breeding should be done to produce good breed specimens with knowledge towards the health concerns of the specific breed. I do not necessarily think that the dog(s) need to be champions but that they should be of good lineage and have health testing done and preferably some type of "showing" to show their mental health, be it in breed, obedience, agility and having their Canine Good Citizen Cert. There are too many people who breed without care of researching their dog(s) and thus can end up with puppies that will have health issues early in their lives. I don't think it fair to the poor pups to have to be brought into the world this way. Also, without testing on both parents, diseases, as mentioned, could be passed from one to the other, and that is scary!

I have a toy (a little over sized) poodle that was gotten specifically as a pet, he was born with two toes missing on one hind foot and has an undershot jaw. I knew this when I got him and was prepared to do what was needed if he needed any tooth pulled if they interfered with his jaw.. luckily they do not and vet said they will be fine... and I got him neutured as soon as I could, I believe he was between 4-5 months old at the time. He was gotten to go to the nursing home with my sister and I to visit our mother who is in there with Alzheimer's, actually, she was the one who fell in love with the pup and I decided to get him so she could see him when we went there. His personality was, and is, perfect for this! And, I can tell you, he does NOT miss his male parts or his maleness... lol. He is a joy to have around, is quite a character, LOVES to play with the spoos and holds his own with them, is wonderful to take to the nursing home. He MISSES NOTHING about being neutered. So don't feel that your boy with feel like he lost out with getting neutered, he will not miss it at all. It is only in your mind that you feel this way, the dog does not "think" as we humans do and thus will not be thinking how he missed out on anything. In fact, you will find that he is a better, more loving friend, and will not mark your house later on. I, personally, would not breed him and would just enjoy him for the loving friend that he is.

This is Jester, my toy, and, as you can see, he misses out on nothing in life!!!!  Your boy will not miss "them" either...and he will not ever think he missed out on "his only chance"...lol. I have some pics of him sleeping in my husband's lap in the house but not here at this point. I can tell you, though, that before I got him neutered he was constantly mounting the other dogs and even tried it on my leg a couple times... neutering him cured that desire.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> Snoops is disappointed.. he was so close. I guess I will take him to Build-a-Bear to cheer him up...


:rofl: 
This comment reminded me of the movie Click... "this one makes the duck do do all the work!!!!"


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

JestersMom - your Jester is so adorable... thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

As for Snoops, I know that he comes from superb lineage, he has relatives who are CKC champions, etc... 
As for Dee.. you are all right - I don't know much about her. 
Without having health tests done, we don't know.

I feel a bit ignorant coming on here and asking about breeding... but I did find out the info I needed to know. 

I had postponed Snoops' neuter, but I am about to book him in for Thursday. 
If anything, I hope the neuter will help him settle down with the humping.. he is always "attacking" his "big sister" Socks (poor girl). I haven't had any troubles with him being aggressive or marking territory in the home.. he's been pretty well behaved on that front. 

Now I know I am perhaps being ridiculous.. but has anyone ever used Neuticles? Any thoughts on that?
http://www.neuticles.com
:thinking:


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

cuddleparty said:


> I feel a bit ignorant coming on here and asking about breeding... but I did find out the info I needed to know.


No, I don't think you should feel ignorant at all about asking. You did the right thing, you checked into the matter first to see people's opinions. That is NOT ignorant, that is being a good dog owner and checking on things first. 

As far as his humping problems, I am sure you will be happy with getting him neutered as that will cut that down, he will probably continue for a short time after the neuter as it takes a while for the testosterone to get out of the system, it is not instant once the "parts" are removed, but it will curb that a lot. He may still attempt it occasionally but just tell him "off" or "leave it", whatever you prefer, when he does and all of a sudden you will realize he is not doing it anymore. It took Jester about 3 weeks after his neuter and all of a sudden I realized he wasn't bothering the girls anymore.

BEST OF LUCK with your sweet boy!


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## Jenspoo (Mar 25, 2009)

I wouldn't feel bad about posting...it's something we all think about about becuase we love our pets and think they would produce other great puppies. I didn't know what all went into breeding until I started looking for my spoo. The cream was funny LOL! I would never have thought....


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

well, I just got off the phone with the vet and Snoops is going in on Tuesday morning. He has been trying to hump Socks all day... Such a little horn dog! Then he did something terrible... He approached Socks as she lay there quietly, Snoops lifted his leg and marked Socks as his territory! Wow! That's one way to make the whole boyfriend/girlfriend thing official.... What happened to giving a bouquet of flowers, or letting her wear your jacket... LOL! Chivalry is dead...


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## onyxpoodle (May 25, 2009)

*a neutered dog is a happy dog*

unless there is a reason to breed your boy--why do it. he will be healthier after he is castrated. you will never have to worry about prostate cancer.eace:


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Wish us luck! Snoops is heading to the vet in the morning for the "snip"
*SIGH*. I'm worried and sad for the little guy...


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Does he have to stay overnight? I'm sure he will be fine and the whole thing will be worse for you than it will be for him. It's very simple for boys.


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## jbsmomto1 (Mar 8, 2009)

I was really worried about Ruby's spay almost 2 weeks ago, I was sick with worry. I dropped her off and both my 6 yr old and i cried on teh way home. I was worried she was gonna die and I wouldn't be there, my 6 year old was more worried about whether Roo would be ok to come home that night. 

But she did well,keeping her quiet was a breeze teh first few days but after that it was hell, ya just can't reason with a dog. lol. 

Quincy was neutered 2 days after I got him and I remember his recovery was easy as pie, no big inicsion, he hadn't been with us long enough to develop that dependency (he was 6 months). He had a small sack where his hazelnuts used to be, but after a while even that went away. he did great. Afterthis experince with Roo, I must says Males were so much easier to deal with after surgery. 

Your boy will be ok, and he will make a better pet for, cheaper vet bills since somany things can be elimated with no hazlenuts in there to cause problems. etc etc. its a good thing to do.


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## OzzysMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Please don't breed your baby. Love him and have him fixed. Each year there are 4.4 million dogs put to sleep in shelters and a lot of these animals are pure bred. Unless you can improve the breed spay or neuter ALWAYS.

Good luck tomorrow, he'll be fine and you'll be glad!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Don't fret about your little boy. I have had males neutered and it is a very simple operation, quick too. The recovery is also quick. He is going to be fine and you will be surprised how fast he is his old self again.
_


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Awww thanks everyone! Snoops just had his bath and about to go to bed... We have to be at the vets at 7:30am... The neuter takes place in the morning, then he comes home at the end of the day. I most definitely am going to get him a little Build-a-Bear tomorrow to cheer him up!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Good luck tomorrow.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Awwww good luck snoopers!! It'll be over before you know it and wow getting something from build a bear is going to be totaly worth it!


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

It's amazing how this has all unraveled... Just last week Snoops was about to get lucky with Dee in New Orleans. Now, he is going under sedation right about now...

Just got back from dropping little Snoopers at the vet. He was so happy this morning, but was shaking once we got there. He looked at me like "mom? What's going on here? Where are you going?" ugh... It breaks my heart. I packed his favorite Snoopy pillow and his blankie, his toys... I hope he will be ok. He is also having his top canines yanked - they are double banking. 

They are going to let me keep his little peanuts which is very sweet! Hooray for my super cool vet! 

Counting down the hours... I can pick him up in 7 hours


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

I used to feel that way too-but if you have confidence in your vet-all will be fine and you and your pet will be so much better off.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_A build-a-bear! The lucky little fellow. Let us know how he is when he comes home.
_


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

Jester sure has a mouthful of teetH1 Guess he needs to show them off to protect himself from the bigger guys-do they all play well together or do you ever worrry the little one could get hurt?


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Have you heard from the vet yet? How'd he do and does he get to come home tonight?


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Snoops is home and laying in my arms... Poor little guy. 
He is super drowsy and doesn't really know what to make of it all. I just gave him an ice cube to lick on and we took his E-collar off. Of course he immediately tried to lick. We got him a soft collar so switched that up.... The hard plastic didn't look too comfy. I'm most worried about him trying to jump on and off the couch and bed as he usually does... 

The area looks red and swollen but the vet did a great job with nice clean stitches. I even got to keep his jewels! They are sitting in a jar of formaldehyde... His top two puppy canines were pulled as well because they were double banked. Snoops' has been thru the ringer today! 

Thanks for all of the care and concern, advice and well wishes!
The deed is finally done... Now we just have to get thru the recovery! 

Harley chick- what part of TX are you in? Maybe we are neighbors


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

Glad your little guy came thru OK...I don't think mine had any stitches that were visible...and he was wide awake and romping around that same evening though we were to keep him calm. You made a good decision!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

cuddleparty said:


> Snoops is home and laying in my arms... Poor little guy.
> He is super drowsy and doesn't really know what to make of it all. I just gave him an ice cube to lick on and we took his E-collar off. Of course he immediately tried to lick. We got him a soft collar so switched that up.... The hard plastic didn't look too comfy. I'm most worried about him trying to jump on and off the couch and bed as he usually does...
> 
> The area looks red and swollen but the vet did a great job with nice clean stitches. I even got to keep his jewels! They are sitting in a jar of formaldehyde... His top two puppy canines were pulled as well because they were double banked. Snoops' has been thru the ringer today!
> ...


I'm glad he's home and doing well. I think leaving them overnight can be the hardest part. I'm in West Texas, near Lubbock. I would be shocked, yet pleasantly surprised if you were around here, there is nothing here. I'm seriously thinking about moving to the Austin area in the next year or two.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't agree with breeding dogs that don't have proper health testing, etc...

I also don't believe in dogs having those emotions. A dog doesn't know or long for a "natural" experience. They're dogs! A dog is just as happy humping a pillow as they are another dog, the only difference is the pillow isn't going to pop out puppies.

You have no idea what possible health defects you could be passing to these puppies or anything. I wouldn't buy or pay money from a poodle from someone who just "felt like breeding" that would be a major flag and i'd move on elsewhere to someone who did all the responsible health testing prior to breeding. If you want a dog without papers and without a health guarantee you go to a shelter, not a breeder.

Check your local newspaper at all the dogs for sale, many of which will end up getting bred over and over again, some of them getting euthanized at animal control because of a lack for homes and others might just end up in that special home. Those are mostly all people who happened to have an intact male and met a female and decided to go ahead and breed them.

It's irresponsible is what it is, plain and simple. You asked for opinions so I gave you mine. I hope you aren't offended by anything i've said as it's not meant to offend but more or less just to inform. There are so many dogs getting killed because nobody has a home to offer and it makes me sad to even think about it. 

I just read that you had him neutered and good for you. You'll be much happier with those jewels gone, I promise!


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## jbsmomto1 (Mar 8, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> Snoops is home and laying in my arms... Poor little guy.
> He is super drowsy and doesn't really know what to make of it all. I just gave him an ice cube to lick on and we took his E-collar off. Of course he immediately tried to lick. We got him a soft collar so switched that up.... The hard plastic didn't look too comfy. I'm most worried about him trying to jump on and off the couch and bed as he usually does...
> 
> The area looks red and swollen but the vet did a great job with nice clean stitches. I even got to keep his jewels! They are sitting in a jar of formaldehyde... His top two puppy canines were pulled as well because they were double banked. Snoops' has been thru the ringer today!
> ...


Glad he is doing well!! You kept his testicles? LOL thats funny, my vet thought I was a bit strange when I asked them to keep Ruby's parts for me so I could see them. I didn't want to bring them home though, just wanted to look. It was actually really very interesting for me to see them. 
You are gonna have 1 heck of a converstaion piece. 
I'm curious though, what do they look like? Little round balls? (sorry, curious is all lol)


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

I am late coming into this thread but just read it and you did make the right decision...the jewels are better off in a jar.
Aidan's post pretty well summed up how I feel about the issue.


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Haha.... I will post a photo of his testicles later if you are interested .... The are quite big for such a little guy! They kinda look like brains... They dance and float in the jar... I have to go and get a more decorative jar and more formaldehyde... 

Anyway.. Snoops is doing better than I expected. He hates the cone he has to wear around his head.. He slept thru the night with a few whimpers and he seems to be hacking a bit. I guess it's from the trach tube that was down his throat. He had some food and water last night, and ate a full serving this morning. No poop yet... I pray that he doesn't experience constipation. The vet tech said he may not poop for 3 days... 

Other than that he seems to be getting back to his normal self 

:hooray:


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm glad to hear that Snoops is healing quickly. He looks like a little teddy bear. Cute! Cute! Cute!


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Thanks BFF... Snoops is back to his old ways. Eating normally and he has been doing his business no problem... No constipation. I did end up taking the cone off during the day and I keep an eye open for any licking. I put it on at bed time.. 
The trickiest part is keeping him from jumping on and off the couch... It's as if nothing happened! I've learned again... That everything will be ok and really, I am just too much of a worry wart... Protective mom I guess :thinking:

Welcome to forum BFF... I'm in the DFW area as well!


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Yea! I'm glad Snoops is on his way to a speedy recovery. We'll have to introduce our little ones at some point. It's nice to know someone isn't too far away.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Hey! Great to hear Snoops is doing well. I am sure you are glad that is over with...lol. I think it was harder on you than Snoops.  I am sure you will be glad to have him stop mounting, I know I was glad that Jester stopped that after he got fixed!


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