# Silver cream phantom



## bailie (May 30, 2016)

I have been looking for a new family member, and have come across a reputable breeder who has accidentally ended up with a silver cream phantom in the litter. I can't find much information on what these pups look like all grown up (and cleared out) - are there any members with dogs who could show me some photos ? I realise it is just a colour (and the pup and breeder otherwise meet all my requirements).
Thank you !


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

That sounds like a beautiful color--would love to see a photo!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Is black the dominant color with silver or cream points, or silverish-cream points? Most have black as the dominant color, but some have brown. I'd like to see the photo of this puppy if you have one.

Here are photos:

Cream phantom:
 

Silver phantoms:





Brown as dominant color, apricot points, phantom:
​
The last one looks like a phantom cafe au lait with cream or a very light apricot to me, but I'm not sure and open for clarification. Here's the link to it and other phantoms.

Here are other links with many photos of phantoms. 

Pinterest phantoms 1

Pinterest phantoms 2


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## bailie (May 30, 2016)

Thank you. 
I would post the photos, but they aren't mine to share (but will if I end up with this pup  ).
Its hard to know if the base colour is silver, black or blue. Guess is dark silver (that will fade out), but it is a guess. The lighter colour has faded to a silver, and the pup has white feet.
Dad is white, and is from a line of whites. Mum is silver, and I believe one of her parents is blue (and the other is white).
Does this help predict what the darker colour may be ?
Thanks !


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I would bet she will be blue or silver since she carries the fading gene on both sides. Experienced breeders can tell by the paw pads if they'll be silver or blue depending on how much white hair they have. I'm no color expert myself, though.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I’ve never seen that combination, but seems likely that most of it will fade out over time. The phantom marking is easily missed on Vita’s picture of the brown/apricot phantom. (P.S. thank you for those striking phantom combo pics, V.!) I really would be more concerned about this potential puppy’s personality. It’s going to have a unique color, mark combo, for sure


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Genetics are complicated, and I have only rudimentary understanding. If anyone else wants to jump in or make any corrections, that would be helpful.

That being said, the pup inherited the "at" gene from each parent for tan points, aka the phantom look. The "t" is actually small like an exponent like you see in math, but I can't copy this with using the PF software.

Go to this page on the Dog Coat Colour Genetics site, then scroll halfway down to Tan Points for more information. 

A dog has to inherit two at genes to have tan points, it will atat. However, *there are other genes* that can mask/hide the points won't be visible. 

I don't know if this puppy, that does express tan points aka phantom, will have it's dominant black hair fade to blue or 'bad black'. You can read more about blues and silvers here. 

The blues, only from my limited observations and readings, come in two types: one is clearly blue or quickly clears to blue as a puppy, the other is born jet black. 

The jet black then starts to get gray, white, and/or light brown hairs very slowly, like a salt n' pepper look. Dechi's poodle and my own began this process at the age of 2. So did my breeder's dam, and now at age five it's hard to tell what color she is. See Dechi's thread and the comments here.

Without knowing if the silver dam of this pup has blacks that stayed black in her ancestry, I can't know if the pup's dominant black color will remain jet black. However, if it does begin a color change, my best guess w/o additional knowledge is that the new white hairs will be complimentary to the silver cream points.


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## bailie (May 30, 2016)

The issue is that the pup was born with white feet... and so the feet can't be used to determine if the pup is silver or blue....


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

bailie said:


> The issue is that the pup was born with white feet... and so the feet can't be used to determine if the pup is silver or blue....


Does the pup have a shaved face ? That should do it.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

This may offend some people, but it makes me crazy when people deliberately breed for a characteristic that is indicated as a fault in the breed standard. Poodles are supposed to be a solid color.


If someone is breeding for other than solid color they are usually charging more for the novelty of it. I don't seen any difference in that from breeding doodles.


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## rkj__ (Dec 24, 2017)

Johanna said:


> If someone is breeding for other than solid color they are usually charging more for the novelty of it. I don't seen any difference in that from breeding doodles.


Mixing different breeds can affect temperament. 

Breeding poodles of colour should only affect appearance. Seems like a big difference to me.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Johanna said:


> This may offend some people, but it makes me crazy when people deliberately breed for a characteristic that is indicated as a fault in the breed standard. Poodles are supposed to be a solid color.
> 
> 
> If someone is breeding for other than solid color they are usually charging more for the novelty of it. I don't seen any difference in that from breeding doodles.


Johanna, I completely agree. I hate it when people breed just for color. However, the OP stated that this was an "accidental" phantom in the litter. I know of a top notch poodle breeder/AKC exhibitor who recently got a surprise phantom!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Johanna, I completely agree. I hate it when people breed just for color. However, the OP stated that this was an "accidental" phantom in the litter. I know of a top notch poodle breeder/AKC exhibitor who recently got a surprise phantom!


 Yes, I have no quarrel with someone who gets a mismark as a surprise, but I do have issues with breeding them deliberately. I have had a couple of mismarks (white patch on the chest) myself. I sold them as pets with no AKC registration papers (that was before the day of limited registration).


I suspect that dogs that only have a patch on the chest and/or tail tip are not genetically two-toned. I think those just had a blip during fetal development.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Vita said:


> Is black the dominant color with silver or cream points, or silverish-cream points? Most have black as the dominant color, but some have brown. I'd like to see the photo of this puppy if you have one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! Thanks for sharing these photos. They look stunning. Really enjoyed looking at them. Sometimes you get a real surprise with the dog when it reaches adulthood. I am thrilled with my all-black Spoo, he was the unexpected, unwanted runt of a big litter that the breeder discounted just to get rid of. She breeds for temperament, Parti colour and show conformation . Nobody wanted the undersized, scrawny runt with the solid coat and crooked teeth. Hahaha! He is an 80+ pound giant, nearly 30 inches at the shoulder , gorgeous shiny coal black coat, his adult teeth came in straight and he has the sweetest temperament . I've had professional dog show people flip out when they see him, raving about his "perfect line" and " muscular quarters". Surprise for all, indeed. All I wanted was a puppy to love.

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Johanna said:


> This may offend some people, but it makes me crazy when people deliberately breed for a characteristic that is indicated as a fault in the breed standard. Poodles are supposed to be a solid color.
> 
> 
> If someone is breeding for other than solid color they are usually charging more for the novelty of it. I don't seen any difference in that from breeding doodles.


Hi Johanna, you might be pleased by my post ..see below in the string, "Charlie's Person". The pup rejected for colour turned into my gorgeous boy.








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## bailie (May 30, 2016)

Shaving the face hasn't helped as the dark colour isn't on the muzzle, only the lighter colour is. And regarding the fact this was a phantom - the breeder was unaware that one of her dogs carried the gene (none of her dogs are phantoms, and its the first time she has had them in one of her litters). This breeding will not be repeated (as she breeds show dogs).

I am likely to not get this pup, as I really prefer the look of a solid. I also don't want to end up with a blue (once again, personal preference) - and there is no guarantee that the dark colour will stay black (or turn silver). I am lucky in that I have 2 other breeders to choose from, and am in no rush for this pup. 
I have seen some lovely phantoms, but just not what I am after (sad to admit it  ).
Thanks for all the comments !


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