# Natural Balance dog and cat food questions!



## Countryboy

sandooch said:


> Has anyone here had success using Natural Balance dog food in getting rid of tear stains on their poodles?


Would this be the stuff, Sandy?

I've got to switch Tonka to a new kibble shortly and was thinkin' of gettin' away from chicken too. It doesn't make him itch, but his eyes! . . . always weeping!! 

Like u, nothing helps. Drops, washing, antibiotics . . . nothing... 

I'll maybe try some of this on him.  

I see that it's a 'three-star' food. Perfectly adequate as long as u add outside protein. *All the way up to five-star foods the reviews give almost the same advice. I think there's maybe only one of the top-line Acana mixes that provide _all_ the protein the reviewer would like to see.*


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## Onyx11

NB is a great food I worked at a pet store for 5 years and sold a-lot of NB I also use it for my cats. I like that they have the limited ingredients I feed my cats the peas and chicken and they do great on it.


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## Onyx11

Countryboy said:


> Would this be the stuff, Sandy?
> 
> I've got to switch Tonka to a new kibble shortly and was thinkin' of gettin' away from chicken too. It doesn't make him itch, but his eyes! . . . always weeping!!
> 
> Like u, nothing helps. Drops, washing, antibiotics . . . nothing...
> 
> I'll maybe try some of this on him.
> 
> I see that it's a 'three-star' food. Perfectly adequate as long as u add outside protein. *All the way up to five-star foods the reviews give almost the same advice. I think there's maybe only one of the top-line Acana mixes that provide _all_ the protein the reviewer would like to see.*


What can you add to the dog foods? I would like to start adding things to Onyx's food


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## Countryboy

I suppose I don't so much add it to the food but just feed it to him separately.

Beef heart is what's on the menu presently. Mostly 'coz it's sooooo easy to handle. I just slice off a chunk or two . . . once or twice a day. 

Sometimes marrow bones, sometimes whatever the butcher's got too much of.


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## Onyx11

Countryboy said:


> I suppose I don't so much add it to the food but just feed it to him separately.
> 
> Beef heart is what's on the menu presently. Mostly 'coz it's sooooo easy to handle. I just slice off a chunk or two . . . once or twice a day.
> 
> Sometimes marrow bones, sometimes whatever the butcher's got too much of.


Should I cook it?


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## sandooch

Countryboy said:


> Would this be the stuff, Sandy?
> 
> I've got to switch Tonka to a new kibble shortly and was thinkin' of gettin' away from chicken too. It doesn't make him itch, but his eyes! . . . always weeping!!
> 
> Like u, nothing helps. Drops, washing, antibiotics . . . nothing...
> 
> I'll maybe try some of this on him.
> 
> I see that it's a 'three-star' food. Perfectly adequate as long as u add outside protein. *All the way up to five-star foods the reviews give almost the same advice. I think there's maybe only one of the top-line Acana mixes that provide _all_ the protein the reviewer would like to see.*


Yes,that's the one, Frank. I actually thought it had a 4-star rank though. Let me know if you do get it and if it helps with Tonka's tearing.


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## Ginagbaby1

Hi Sandooch! 

Casper is allergic to chicken too so we avoid that and also do grain free. We feed him TOTW lamb or salmon and have added the Natural Balance as a topper but it didn't help with tearing or stains. Could've have been that it wasn't enough to make a difference. Not sure what part of CA you are in but we get the TOTW from our groomer (it's a store and grooming salon) and pay $25.99 for the 15 pound bag and they sell the cat line as well. 

I have also heard good things about Costco's Salmon and sweet potato. It's grain free and doesn't have any chicken. The 35 pound is $34.00 and they have a cat version as well but I'm not sure how much that is. I thought about trying it out for Casper but a big that big would last us more than two months and I'm not sure how long it would stay fresh.


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## Gorky

Lichen is on Natural Balance Venizon and sweet potato and he is doing just fine on it. We tried Acana and Orijen and he didn't much like it. Just before neutering his liver count was slightly high. I got advice from my breeder as well as members of another forum I was on that sometimes poodles cannot take high protein. We then put Lichen on Natural Balance and his liver count has gone back to normal.


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## Countryboy

Gorky said:


> I got advice from my breeder as well as members of another forum I was on that sometimes poodles cannot take high protein.


I've heard this too. And I'm keeping it in mind as I'm experimenting with Tonka's diet. 

I've never cooked the Beef heart but I'm considering it. Something is giving Tonka dire rear so I'm still experimenting with xtra protein . . . and whether or not it should be cooked. He's actually on a protein 'time-out' 'coz of this dire rear.

It goes without saying that cooked food is safer to feed than raw. Simply 'coz of the guaranteed elimination of any harmful bacteria. But, having said the unsayable, I have to say that dogs have been eating raw meat for thousands of years. So which is right?? . . . I dunno... 

Before Spud, I sliced up raw Beef heart for him with no problem. Then I didn't . . for months . . 'coz Spud couldn't eat it. Now, I'm thinkin' that Tonka's stomach upset may be from my re-introduction of outside protein. 

Good thread, Sandy. Maybe we'll have to see how it all breaks down and get back to it in a couple of weeks, eh?  lol


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## Sookster

I've seen the NB LID foods do some wonderful things for dogs with allergies/sensitivities. My two cents on the brand are that it is decent, if slightly overpriced (there are better foods out there for cheaper that don't have chicken in them, if that is your ONLY problem). The meat protein in them is way lower than I like to see (they have lots of potato). BUT I have seen some dogs that can't eat anything but NB LID formulas and it has changed their lives. 

As far as cats go, you can take or leave this advice. Cat's are obligate carnivores, meaning they absolutely must have meat (and lots of it) in their diet. I prefer cat foods with very high meat content and NB just isn't one of them. Cats also don't have a thirst drive like dogs do. If you see a cat drinking, they are well on their way to being very dehydrated. So I prefer to feed cats wet food (I feed my own cat a mixture of wet/dry for cost reasons). Chronic dehydration is one of the number one reasons why we see so many cats with health problems, especially problems involving the urinary tract and bladder. The other prominent cause of health problems in cats is a diet high in carbohydrates and low in meat protein. This isn't a cat food forum, so I will say no more on the matter. If you are interested, I can provide more resources via PM. 


This would probably be a better food for your cat, if you must feed dry: 
$31/15lb -- Amazon.com: Taste of the Wild Grain-Free Dry Cat Food, Canyon River w/ Trout & Smoked Salmon, 15 Pound Bag: Pet Supplies


These dog foods are similarly priced with more meat content: 
Amazon.com: Taste of the Wild Sierra - 15 lbs: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Pinnacle Salmon & Potato Grain-Free Formula Dog Food - 12 Pounds: Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: Merrick Before Grain - Pork - 11.1 lb: Pet Supplies

So just a few other options. Like I said, NB has done wonders for some dogs, but I'm uncomfortable with the low meat/protein content of the LID formulas. Do let us know how she does on it, though. I always like to hear about experiences.

Ah! Almost forgot! Things you can add for protein (I add these to kibble): 
Fat free (NOT SUGAR FREE!!!) yogurt
Cottage Cheese
Raw Eggs
Sardines (whole)
...I'm blanking on more


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## Countryboy

I picked up some NB LID Fish and Sweet Potato kibble today. *Getting away from both rice and chicken at once.* I'll try Tonka on it tomorrow.

LID foods changing lives, Sookster? I hope so... 

I'm counting on it to keep him eating readily enuf to put on another 5 pounds, clear up his weepy eyes . . . and maybe eliminate his seizures. *Fat chance, eh?  lol*

But wouldn't it be great if the last two were indeed allergy related?

Chick Peas/Garbonzo Beans are good too for protein.


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## Sookster

Countryboy said:


> I picked up some NB LID Fish and Sweet Potato kibble today. *Getting away from both rice and chicken at once.* I'll try Tonka on it tomorrow.
> 
> LID foods changing lives, Sookster? I hope so...
> 
> I'm counting on it to keep him eating readily enuf to put on another 5 pounds, clear up his weepy eyes . . . and maybe eliminate his seizures. *Fat chance, eh?  lol*
> 
> But wouldn't it be great if the last two were indeed allergy related?


Believe it or not, actually changing lives! I have known of dogs who were miserable, constantly infected skin, chronic gastric upset, etc. who were pretty much cured by going to one of these LID foods. 

You really would be surprised how much is related to allergies. My own personal experience, I decided to try a gluten-free diet. I had constant stomach upset and severe environmental allergies, which caused me to have asthma. I went on the gluten free diet and have not taken my allergy medication or my inhaler in nearly a month. My stomach is no longer gurgely and crampy all the time, and I have loads more energy. 

My boyfriends labrador has a simple corn allergy, and is mildly sensitive to other grains. He had a flea allergy when he was on cheap food, in addition to chronic vomiting, diarrhea, skin, and ear infections as well as a few eye infections. Cut the corn and grains, he hasn't been to the vet for more than a routine checkup in two years.


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## sandooch

Thank you all for such great advice and for all the dog and cat food sites to check out. 

Sookster, I've read the same great reviews about the Natural Balance foods being the only foood that has helped with their dog's allergies and tear stains. I have tried TOTW with her in the past, but she didn't care for it and it did nothing for her tear stains. I will definitely come back here in a few weeks of Gigi eating the NB (with extra protein thrown in for good measure) and give a review on it.

And on a side note: My oldest daughter found out a little over a year ago that she is gluten intolerant, experiencing the same stomach cramping as you did. She also was mildly depressed and started to experience anxiety attacks. She's been eating gluten free since finding out she cannot tolerate gluten and no more stomach cramping, depression or anxiety. Another pleasant, yet unexpected, side affect from going gluten free for her was that she also lost 20 pounds without trying (still ate around the same number of calories each day) and is now very happy with her weight and has more energy as well. It is amazing how the body responds when we give it, or in you and my daughter's case, do not give it certain foods.


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## liljaker

Countryboy -- I also got advice from Denise (Sunny's breeder) to not go too high on protein, either, so whether I was looking at kibble (or not) always kept that in mind. Orijen was too rich, and actually am now using Wellness Simple, which has limited ingredients. Duck, Duck Broth, Rice, Carrageenan, Guar Gum, Potassium Chloride, Iron Proteinate, Zinc Proteinate, Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Cobalt Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Riboflavin Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Potassium Iodide, Biotin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement.

He does fine on it -- it has min. 20% protein, which is great. He gets his main meal of premade raw, currently venison (Natural Inistinct). But, yes, I watch for the protein, too.


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## Ginagbaby1

I was at the store today and was looking at the ingredients in all of the NB LID, and one of them listed was chicken fat. Since she's got a chicken allergy, wouldn't this aggravate it?


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## Countryboy

Ginagbaby1 said:


> I was at the store today and was looking at the ingredients in all of the NB LID, and one of them listed was chicken fat. Since she's got a chicken allergy, wouldn't this aggravate it?


Two of the NB LIDs have Chicken as protein . . . the Organic Formula Dry, and the Ultra Premium. They also both use Rice as a starch. The three others with Salmon, Duck, or Venison don't use Chicken, and some or all of them have Potato as a starch.

Here's a good reference to the Natural Balance Limited Ingredient Diet foods. All of the reviews *I imagine* are written for dogs in general and not specifically for Poodles. But since there's three of us here that have heard sumthin' abt Poodles and protein . . and maybe they don't need so much as other breeds . . that it would be interesting to hear other opinions. 

I put Tonka on the Sweet Potato and Fish last nite. It's probably very good for him, and I'm hopin' he'll finish it . . . . sometime today.  lol


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## Ginagbaby1

I'm wondering how Tonka and Gigi are doing on the new food.

Casper has never really liked the TOTW but I've been pushing it, trying to get him to eat, trying all the different flavors, all kinds of topping and making myself crazy. Why, I don't really know... I guess that I've heard such good things about it and I really want him to have good food. He was on BB when we first got him from the breeder and it gave him horrible gas. Sandooch's comment about it doing nothing for Gigi's stains really made me think about it. It doesn't do anything for Casper's stains either and he doesn't even like it. Now he's begun refusing it, picking through and trying to eat the topper while spitting the kibble on the floor. I'm going to go and buy a big of the NB LID today and see what happens.


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## Countryboy

We seem to have had a drying up of the eyes in only four days on the NB LID. I'll let u know if this continues. Hard to believe that a change of diet works so quickly, eh?

And the great thing is that Lichen is on Venison, Tonka is on Fish, and Gigi is on Lamb. When they get tired of that . . . we can all switch!  lol


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## sandooch

You are so funny, Frank!  I'm glad to hear that Tonka is already showing an improvement with the tearing. Please keep updating us as the weeks go by.

Gigi likes the NB LID, but I have to mix it with the remaining dry dog food she was previously eating. I hope that once she is completely eating just the NB that she'll also benefit from it in the tearing department. 

Gina, could you also let us know how NB is working out for Casper?


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## georgiapeach

I have a boxer puppy that has had digestive issues since bringing him home from the breeder. Against my better judgement, I followed my vet's advice and put him on the Rx Royal Canin Puppy Digest and Skin. Not good. The vet then sold me the Rx Royal Canin Gastro dry food. Worse... I emailed the vet and told her my confidence in RC was low and that I was going to try Natural Balance Potato and Duck. I'd fed the NB Potato and Duck to a Boston Terrier puppy that had digestive issues a few years ago, and it was the only food he could tolerate.

Brodie (the boxer pup) is now totally off the Gastro diet, and I am feeding 1/2 RC Puppy Digest and Skin and 1/2 Natural Balance Potato and Duck for a couple of days. His poo is still soft, but there's already less of it, so I hope we're heading in the right direction! I worry about the low protein (21%) and fat 
(10%), but maybe that's all he can tolerate right now. If the switch is successful, I may supplement with some sardines (canned in water). Fish oil will also be added later, if he can tolerate it.

Luckily Potsie can eat a variety of kibble, as long as it's high quality kibble. He also has a cast iron stomach, thank God. I'm glad that one of my dogs has one!


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## sandooch

Hi Beth! Thanks for your reply, and I'm glad that Brodie seems to be doing better on the NB.


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## Ginagbaby1

Okay so we've been on the natural balance now for almost a week. I introduced the NB very slowly. We are at about 3/4 NB and 1/4 TOTW but he doesn't want the TOTW anymore and will not eat those kibble pieces or pick them out and spit them out on the floor beside his bowl. His eyes are not tearing anymore but do get a tiny bit of gunk but instead of having to clean them out everyday it's more like every other day. And he isn't itchy either! He was neutered last week and is still on antibiotics and pain medication but even with that his poops have been solid and well formed. So far it's been a really good change.


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## Countryboy

Good to hear that Casper and Brodie are doin' well on their changing diets. Hope Casper gets over his operation soon. 

I'm going thru the NB LID kibble in 5 lb bags. Trying each one . . . just to see if there's one he likes. He's been eating the Fish, but tonite he got his first taste of Lichenfood . . . Sweet Potato and Venison. 

And "Mr. Picky" actually ate half of it!  lol

Like u, the eyes are better. Not so much gunk . . . easier to stay 'on top' of.


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## Gorky

I'm glad to hear that both of you are doing better on the food. It now is known as Lichenfood haha! There is also Buffalo and sweet potato which sounds good as well and we might try it someday. You can also bake your own sweet potato treats instead of using grappy Chinese treats. Lichen adores them as well.


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## sandooch

Hearing that Casper and Tonka are having continued improvement with the NB is giving me so much hope for Gigi. I want to wean her off the Angel Eyes and hope the NB will take care of her tearing on its own.

I'm still mixing the NB with her other food and do give her Blue Buffalo's Blue's Stew canned food (1/3 of the 12.5-oz can each morning. They promise no chicken, by-product or fillers) for variety, added protein and because she won't take the Angel Eyes any other way. 

Do you think I should wean her slowly off the Angel Eyes with the canned Blue Buffalo food or go cold turkey and just feed her the NB dry food by itself for the staining? I'm still mixing the NB with her other dry dog food (the name of which escapes me now), but maybe I should just give her the NB and give the other dry food to my sister for her dog. 

Opinions?


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## jasperspoo

I read on another forum that NB changed their formula roughly 6 months ago and dogs started getting sick. I've recently put Jasper on NB LID lamb due to suspected allergies, and this is the first time that I've seen him relish his food! I'm hoping that what I read was incorrect or isolated, or that they've reverted to their original formula.

Does anyone know if there's any truth to it?


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## liljaker

jasperspoo said:


> I read on another forum that NB changed their formula roughly 6 months ago and dogs started getting sick. I've recently put Jasper on NB LID lamb due to suspected allergies, and this is the first time that I've seen him relish his food! I'm hoping that what I read was incorrect or isolated, or that they've reverted to their original formula.
> 
> Does anyone know if there's any truth to it?


I saw quite a few comments from people whose dogs were getting sick.....supposedly after they changed the formula? I only briefly looked at the comments, but they seemed pretty consistent. Perhaps it was some batches instead?


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## Countryboy

sandooch said:


> Do you think I should wean her slowly off the Angel Eyes with the canned Blue Buffalo food or go cold turkey and just feed her the NB dry food by itself for the staining? I'm still mixing the NB with her other dry dog food (the name of which escapes me now), but maybe I should just give her the NB and give the other dry food to my sister for her dog.
> 
> Opinions?


I don't spend any time altering their food gradually. One nite his meal was all Fish and the next nite was pure Venison. But that's just *my* style. There are many people who would wean a dog more gradually . . and maybe for good reasons.

I don't use Angel Eyes . . . and I'm almost positive that with the NB LIDs I won't have to. Time will tell, but it sure looks at this point like there's no tearing.


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## georgiapeach

jasperspoo said:


> I read on another forum that NB changed their formula roughly 6 months ago and dogs started getting sick. I've recently put Jasper on NB LID lamb due to suspected allergies, and this is the first time that I've seen him relish his food! I'm hoping that what I read was incorrect or isolated, or that they've reverted to their original formula.
> 
> Does anyone know if there's any truth to it?


Playing devil's advocate here, maybe the dogs have been getting sick simply because of the sudden change in formula (just like starting a new food suddenly), rather than there being something wrong with the food. Just a thought.


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## jasperspoo

georgiapeach said:


> Playing devil's advocate here, maybe the dogs have been getting sick simply because of the sudden change in formula (just like starting a new food suddenly), rather than there being something wrong with the food. Just a thought.


I really hope that's all it is. Jasper loves the NB LID food I've been giving him- it's the first food that he's happily polished off!


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## schnauzerpoodle

See recent reports on NB food here:

Consumer complaints about Natural Balance Pet Foods


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## sandooch

schnauzerpoodle said:


> See recent reports on NB food here:
> 
> Consumer complaints about Natural Balance Pet Foods


Thank you for that link. It really is hard to believe what the really story is with NB, though, as the reviews on Petco.com here: petco.com - Natural Balance L.I.D. Potato & Duck Dry Dog Food customer reviews - product reviews - read top consumer ratings are extremely favorable. Out of 105 reviews, it got rated 4.8 out of 5 paws (stars). 

I can only hope that there was a bad batch out there for a while that was causing the problems with the negative reviewers and that NB has resolved the problems.

So far, all 3 of my cats love this food and have not vomited at all after eating it for a while now. Gigi is still getting it mixed with her old food (I have to painstakingly pick out the old food which I absentmindedly mixed with the NB into her dog food container). But I haven't seen any problems with her as of yet and she really loves this food. 

Hope to hear back from others using this NB with more reviews.


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## Ginagbaby1

Sandooch, I too was using the Angel Eyes with Casper but because he was getting the antibiotics for his neuter, I stopped it completely. (I didn't want to overwhelm his system with too many medications). At the same time was when we introduced the NB and we didn't have any problems with stopping it suddenly. Now we have no more tearing! His eyes are dry and he isn't itchy at all either. I am still mixing in small amounts of his old food just cause we still have some of it left. I also add 2 TBS of canned to both his meals. We use Nature's Instinct or Wellness and I mix around all the different chicken free and grainless varietys that they have. And like Jasperspoo, Casper is loving his food, knock on wood. He is done eating in about 2 minutes whereas before he'd sniff, walk away, come back for another sniff, and walk away again. We haven't had any problems with digestive issues so far.


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## Gorky

I might go to home cooking one day but Lichen really likes the NB Venizon and sweet potato. We were thinking of changing and we gave Lichen California Natural Lamb and potato. We only gave him a little of this kibble with the NB kibble and he had soft stools. The next morning we decided to give him NB again and Lichen looked at and examined the food before even tasting it. Apparently he did not want the other food. He is back to normal. 

It did frighten me a bit, but the people complaining should have also put the batch number so other customers of NB could have that information.


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## liljaker

Schnauzerpoodle: That is what I saw originally, too, and yet I hear of people saying they have had good results. Hard to know what the problem is --- but, I guess with so many really good foods on the market, I would just not take the chance myself.


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## Gorky

Lichen was on Orijen and just before he was neutered he had blood tests. His liver count was a little too high. I consulted with my breeder and others and they thought the protein was too high. He also had been eating Acana but it was so hard to get the food so we changed to Orijen. I then investigated NB and found good reports so I changed him to that food. He had blood tests again and his liver count was normal. He loves the food and has just the right consistency for his stools. His appetite is superb. I don't know what to think. I have looked at other foods in the last few days and nothing compares to their ingredients for Lichen. He doesn't like chicken and doesn't do well with fish and we prefer to go grainless with him for obvious reasons. We would like to use honest kitchen, but many things are going to be changing for us soon so he must be on kibble.


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## Countryboy

I didn't really like to see that link, but I did read enuf to see that the comments dated back to 2007. And they mostly weren't good even way back then. So this must be appearing in multiple batches . . over years.

But I read today *Dogs in Canada? . . or maybe in here?* that if kibble from any brand isn't made in China then it's guaranteed that many of the ingredients will. So we're pretty much at the mercy of Chinese manufacturers regardless...

I just don't wanna be buying Bag #00000001 from any new batch!


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## sandooch

Ginagbaby1 said:


> Sandooch, I too was using the Angel Eyes with Casper but because he was getting the antibiotics for his neuter, I stopped it completely. (I didn't want to overwhelm his system with too many medications). At the same time was when we introduced the NB and we didn't have any problems with stopping it suddenly. Now we have no more tearing! His eyes are dry and he isn't itchy at all either. I am still mixing in small amounts of his old food just cause we still have some of it left. I also add 2 TBS of canned to both his meals. We use Nature's Instinct or Wellness and I mix around all the different chicken free and grainless varietys that they have. And like Jasperspoo, Casper is loving his food, knock on wood. He is done eating in about 2 minutes whereas before he'd sniff, walk away, come back for another sniff, and walk away again. We haven't had any problems with digestive issues so far.


This is so great to hear. I had Gigi on the full amount of Angels Eyes, but today I cut back to half that amount (she really dislikes the taste of it, too) and mixed it with her small portion of wet food. After a few more days of this, I'll cut it in half again. I'm almost done with it anyway, so I told myself that after it's done, I won't be getting any more. So I am praying that the NB actually will do the job on it's own of keeping the red tearstains away.

Two days ago I painstakingly picked out all the NB from your other dry dog food that I had mixed together in her cereal-sized canister. It took me about 3 hours to do it, but she's worth it. And I really want her just to be on the NB now so that I can really test out how effective it is with removing the tearstains. 

Keeping my fingers crossed!


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## pgr8dnlvr

Please, Please, PLEASE! Don't let this thread die! I'm so interested in hearing if this diet really will help stop/avoid tear staining!

Is it any one of the LID's or just one in particular that people are going toward?

I went into the local shop asking about this diet the other day, but they have no "puppy" formula. They said that the idea is you can feed that diet at ANY lifestage, is this true or?

Thanks for the updates, and please do let us know if this diet helped your dog get rid of it's tear stains!

Rebecca


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## sandooch

Rebecca, I will definitely check in here periodically with updates, whether they are good or bad.

I'm not sure if it's the different types of meats/fish that have anything to do with whether or not it will affect the tearstains. I'm giving Gigi the Small Bites (she doesn't like big cubes) Lamb and Rice, and the package says for puppies on up. So you could give this to your puppy.

The only reason I didn't get the fish one is because Gigi generally doesn't like it with othe brands I've tried, so I didn't even want to take a chance.


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## sandooch

Just a quick update: I groomed Gigi yesterday, and shaved off a lot of the tearstains she did have (still not half as bad as before the NB). I was pretty impressed since I cut her Angel Eyes portion in half recently, and the stains usually come back heavier when I've done that in the past. 

Today I cut it in half again, only giving her 1/4 tsp instead of the 1 tsp recommended. I'll do this for a week, along with feeding her the NB mixed with a small amount of wet Blue Buffalo (helps hide the taste of the Angel Eyes). Since I bathe Gigi weekly, or there abouts, I will see how this change in the lesser amount of Angel Eyes and NB are affecting the tearstains. If it still looks like it's where it is now or (hopefully) improving, I will go down to just 1/8 tsp of Angel Eyes with her food for another week and go from there.

But, so far so good! I'll check back in about a week. *ツ*


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## Ginagbaby1

Ok so all had been going well till Sunday when I bought a new bag of the salmon and sweet potatoe. We opened up the bag for dinner, he ate normally and 30 minutes later threw up almost all of it. I didn't want to panic so yesterday morning I fed him again. He didn't throw up again but when I got home around noon and took him out of the crate, he drank an unusually insane amount of water. At this point I didn't want to take any chances (with all the recent reports of dogs getting sick with this food). I still had some TOTW left and gave that to him instead. He ate it all up so all is okay. No I just have to figure out what to do...


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## Ladyscarletthawk

*sigh* these complaints are upsetting to say the least. Eve is on the Duck and potato LID due to her allergies. All the foods that I love and trust she is allergic to. Lately she has been having fairly loose stools.. Im wondering if its due to the food.. at least the dry. She was on the canned venison and potato and had solid stools but I decided to put her on a dry in hopes to get her to gain weight. Now I know canned tends to have better quality ingredients than the dry counterparts.. but I cant help wonder if I should switch as difficult as that may be to something else. I dont want to put her on SD esp since it makes her poo smell vile.

Dont know what else to do.. if its not one ingredient its another that she's allergic to..


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## Ginagbaby1

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> *sigh* these complaints are upsetting to say the least. Eve is on the Duck and potato LID due to her allergies. All the foods that I love and trust she is allergic to. Lately she has been having fairly loose stools.. Im wondering if its due to the food.. at least the dry. She was on the canned venison and potato and had solid stools but I decided to put her on a dry in hopes to get her to gain weight. Now I know canned tends to have better quality ingredients than the dry counterparts.. but I cant help wonder if I should switch as difficult as that may be to something else. I dont want to put her on SD esp since it makes her poo smell vile.
> 
> Dont know what else to do.. if its not one ingredient its another that she's allergic to..


I agree that it's very upsetting. He hadn't had anything new to eat or been around somewhere that he could have eaten something he shouldn't have so when he threw up I got scared. Then when he drank so much water, I decided not to take any chances. I've since bought a new bag of TOTW, (the salmon flavor) and so far he's been eating it just as good as the NB LID.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Ginagbaby1 said:


> I agree that it's very upsetting. He hadn't had anything new to eat or been around somewhere that he could have eaten something he shouldn't have so when he threw up I got scared. Then when he drank so much water, I decided not to take any chances. I've since bought a new bag of TOTW, (the salmon flavor) and so far he's been eating it just as good as the NB LID.


See and the same thing happened with TOTW... I believe it was the grain free duck or whatever fowl one. I was switching both dogs to it... Everything was going well until they got the full ration.. mind you it was over a 3 wk period.. Both dogs threw up and had diarrhea. I stopped it and put them back on the old food and rice.. no issues and solid poop. Then I read that Diamond makes it and that there is strong possibility that there is ethoxyquin in their food still.. perhaps perserving their ingredients and not necessarily the food. Either way I would be careful about it. Downright will drive you batty worrying about all these food companies. If push comes to shove I will ignore the food allergies and put her on a food I trust or stop being lazy and cook for her.


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## sandooch

Ginagbaby1 said:


> Ok so all had been going well till Sunday when I bought a new bag of the salmon and sweet potatoe. We opened up the bag for dinner, he ate normally and 30 minutes later threw up almost all of it. I didn't want to panic so yesterday morning I fed him again. He didn't throw up again but when I got home around noon and took him out of the crate, he drank an unusually insane amount of water. At this point I didn't want to take any chances (with all the recent reports of dogs getting sick with this food). I still had some TOTW left and gave that to him instead. He ate it all up so all is okay. No I just have to figure out what to do...


I'm so sorry that this happened. I wonder if it was the Salmon NB that was the cause of this brand's problems or if it was different flavors. Maybe it could be that the Salmon didn't agree with him, but I understand your concern about not wanting to take a chance.

I would love to be able to afford to feed Gigi raw, but I'm already spending more than I thought I would with these better quality dog and cat foods. We have to really watch our budget lately because my husband's company had to cut paychecks by 10%. 

I gave Gigi another bath since my last post and trimmed her face. The stains are still there, but still not as bad as before feeding her the NB. I'm still giving her 1/8 tsp. of the Angel Eyes though. I'm tempted to just stop it altogether and see if the staining continues to stay where it is at now or (better yet) keeps improving. Okay, I'll omit the Angel Eyes starting tomrrow.

I'll report back in a week or so with the results of that.


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## Countryboy

Gigi looks so cute in her Easter Bunny ears!  

Tonka's been on 1/4 of a can of MediCal wet every two hours lately so his NB diet has gone all to heck. We expect to get back on it soon tho. 

Still, his eyes are better than they were all last summer.


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## sandooch

Hi Frank! Was there any reason that you didn't feed Tonka half wet and half NB? The only reason I was giving Gigi a little wet food in the morning was because she wouldn't eat the Angel Eyes any other way. But now that I'll be stopping the Angel Eyes, I think I'll just go completely to NB.


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## Countryboy

Ya . . we went on that diet for a reason abt two weeks ago.

But now he _is_ on 1/2 & 1/2. Or maybe a little more kibble than canned.

I'm thinkin' that, since the NB LID works so well for his eyes, we're gonna stay with that for now. But! . . since he had to go to canned, and then a mix of canned and dry, his appetite has improved a bit.

So now I'm lookin' around for a wet food . . without Chicken . . that I can stir in with the LID kibble. Hopefully that will keep his appetite up AND his eyes dry!  lol


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## sandooch

I'm using Blue Buffalo's Blue's Stew. They post a promise on the side of their can that says:

True Blue PROMISE:

REAL DUCK First ingredient
NO Chicken or Poulty By-Product Meats
NO Corn, Wheat or Soy
NO Artificial Perservatives, Colors or Flavors

Gigi loves it, especially since today was the first day she got it without the Angel Eyes. She couldn't wolf it down fast enough.


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## Sookster

pgr8dnlvr said:


> I went into the local shop asking about this diet the other day, but they have no "puppy" formula. They said that the idea is you can feed that diet at ANY lifestage, is this true or?
> 
> Rebecca


Natural Balance formulas are All Life Stages, meaning they meet guidelines to comply with "growth" (puppy) or "maintenance" (adult) needs and should be nutritionally complete for either purpose.



Ladyscarletthawk said:


> ...Then I read that Diamond makes it and that there is strong possibility that there is ethoxyquin in their food still.. perhaps perserving their ingredients and not necessarily the food.


Ethoxyquin is a preservative used to preserve fish meal that is not imported with intentions for human consumption (there used to be a _law_ that fish meal had to be preserved with Ethoxyquin if not intended for human consumption unless special arrangements were made and steps were taken to do something else, I'm sure you could google it for more info). It was commonly used in fish meal for pet food (and still is to an extent) a few years ago. I don't know the exact time frame, but Diamond Pet Foods made an announcement a couple years ago that they would no longer be using fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin. If you are concerned about that, don't feed the fish flavors. Ethoxyquin is only used in preserving fish, so you should be fine with any of the other flavors that don't have any sort of fish meal. 

Taste of the Wild and Natural Balance are both manufactured by Diamond Pet Foods, as are Solid Gold, Canidae, and Chicken Soup. Despite a couple of prominent recalls (what company _hasn't_ had recalls???) I think that Diamond is one of the better manufacturers out there. They have several high quality lines of pet food, and Taste Of The Wild really is one of the best options on the market, both in quality and price. They also handle their recalls a lot better than many other companies. 

Interesting to hear all of these stories. Do keep it going!


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Sookster said:


> Natural Balance formulas are All Life Stages, meaning they meet guidelines to comply with "growth" (puppy) or "maintenance" (adult) needs and should be nutritionally complete for either purpose.
> 
> 
> 
> Ethoxyquin is a preservative used to preserve fish meal that is not imported with intentions for human consumption (there used to be a _law_ that fish meal had to be preserved with Ethoxyquin if not intended for human consumption unless special arrangements were made and steps were taken to do something else, I'm sure you could google it for more info). It was commonly used in fish meal for pet food (and still is to an extent) a few years ago. I don't know the exact time frame, but Diamond Pet Foods made an announcement a couple years ago that they would no longer be using fish meal preserved with ethoxyquin. If you are concerned about that, don't feed the fish flavors. Ethoxyquin is only used in preserving fish, so you should be fine with any of the other flavors that don't have any sort of fish meal.
> 
> Taste of the Wild and Natural Balance are both manufactured by Diamond Pet Foods, as are Solid Gold, Canidae, and Chicken Soup. Despite a couple of prominent recalls (what company _hasn't_ had recalls???) I think that Diamond is one of the better manufacturers out there. They have several high quality lines of pet food, and Taste Of The Wild really is one of the best options on the market, both in quality and price. They also handle their recalls a lot better than many other companies.
> 
> Interesting to hear all of these stories. Do keep it going!


Well thats just great lol.. didnt know Diamond produced NB *sigh*.. May have to change foods again.. No Im not doing it because NB is made by Diamond.. that kinda just solidifies my feelings to changing lol. But because lately not long after I started using the kibble she had had really loose stools.. been like this for a few days to a week. I mean frozen yogurt type, and not a lot of fun to pick up.. on the bright side Im weeding my yard cause of it lol. I will try for a few more days.. I took out the new supps I was giving.. been 2 days and no change in her stools. Even SD doesnt have this affect on her.. just smellier poops lol.

As far as recalls.. the food I feed and would feed Eve is she wasnt allergic to Kelp, carrots, eggs, barley, or green peas which is in most of the formulas is Fromms and I believe they have never had a recall. The worst thing they ever did was use China to manufacture their canned food which they have already rectified and no longer outsource to china. Their canned foods look and smell just as good as non condenced soups.. you know like progresso soups/stews


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## Countryboy

sandooch said:


> Gigi loves it, especially since today was the first day she got it without the Angel Eyes. She couldn't wolf it down fast enough.


That's a positive first step, eh? Get them something they love to eat. Glad to hear it! I hope the Blue's Stew and LID kibble combo works for her eyes too.  

We've still got a few cans left of the vet supplied SD. But I may find slightly more inexpensive canned at the pet store. So thanx for the tip. I'll check out the Blue Buffalo 'Stew' on Monday. 

And thanx also to Sookster for that report on Diamond Foods and Ethoxyquin. Two things I didn't know!


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## sandooch

Well, unfortunately it seems it was not the NB that was helping to rid Gigi of her tear stains but the Angel Eyes after all. After taking her completely off of the Angel Eyes for over a week now, the stains are back to where they were before starting the Angel Eyes. This is so disheartening. 

Back to the drawing board I guess. Hope the rest of you are having better luck with NB in the tear staining department.


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## PaddleAddict

Have you tried completely grain free? Or raw?

Does she drink filtered water or tap?


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## liljaker

PaddleAddict: Does Jager drink filtered water? I know the breeder said she used filtered water with her pups in Canada; but I don't know water quality, etc. I thought about using spring water/filtered for Sunny and do when I have bottled water around, etc., but not all the time.


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## PaddleAddict

liljaker said:


> PaddleAddict: Does Jager drink filtered water? I know the breeder said she used filtered water with her pups in Canada; but I don't know water quality, etc. I thought about using spring water/filtered for Sunny and do when I have bottled water around, etc., but not all the time.


Yes, Jäger drinks what we drink, which is RO water (we have a unit under the sink with an extra tap on our sink).

I don't have to worry about tear stains, though, since he's black.


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## liljaker

Thanks. Sunny does not tear (maybe cream/apricots don't?) so that's not an issue, but if I have it, I usually use for him anyway.


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## sandooch

Oh, I've tried all the recommended solutions for tear stains: Filtered water, stainless steal bowls, adding vinegar to the water, yogurt/probiotic, powdered buttermilk, etc...

The only thing I haven't tried is going raw. I'm just too nervous about it being expensive, and money is tight. Right now I'm spending about $30 for a 12.5-pound bag. It'll last me about 3 months because I supplement it with canned food, which costs me about $35 for a box of 12 big cans. Those cans only last me about 1 1/2 month though. So I figure I spend around $28 a month combined. I feel like I would be spending twice as much to go raw. :afraid:


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## liljaker

You may want to try adding a couple of drops of GSE in the water......(grape seed extract).


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## liljaker

sandooch said:


> Oh, I've tried all the recommended solutions for tear stains: Filtered water, stainless steal bowls, adding vinegar to the water, yogurt/probiotic, powdered buttermilk, etc...
> 
> The only thing I haven't tried is going raw. I'm just too nervous about it being expensive, and money is tight. Right now I'm spending about $30 for a 12.5-pound bag. It'll last me about 3 months because I supplement it with canned food, which costs me about $35 for a box of 12 big cans. Those cans only last me about 1 1/2 month though. So I figure I spend around $28 a month combined.  I feel like I would be spending twice as much to go raw. :afraid:


My sister uses it for her bichon...it seems to help as he tears quite a bit.

Grape seed extract (GSE) (Vitis Vinnifera) is an extract from grape seeds from red grapes. Grape seeds have a high content of compounds called oligomeric proanthocyanidins— better known as OPCs, which are potent antioxidants. Because of their simple chemical structure, OPCs are readily absorbed into the bloodstream.

Grape seed extract:

Protects the body from premature aging and disease 
Supports healthy skin 
Promotes cellular health, elasticity, and flexibility 
Improves blood circulation by strengthening capillaries, arteries, and veins 
Reduces risk of cataracts 
Protects against cancer 
Provides cardiovascular support 
Grape seed extract is especially beneficial to aging animals, and animals with cataracts, cancer and heart disease.

On the Safety of Grape Seed Extract: Grapes and raisins have been of much debate in the past few years. Here is a short quote from the Veterinary Information Network board posts ”Ingestion of grapes or raisins has been associated with acute renal failure in dogs. Anecdotal evidence suggests that cats may also be affected… Being a fructose sugar, it is quickly eliminated through the kidneys where it reaches high tissue levels. It then causes a certain cell “power house” called the mitochondria to open and allow calcium to enter.” This causes the mitochondria to stop functioning, therefore the death of the cell. “Recent unpublished data indicates that the toxic component is water soluble, and within the flesh of the grape/raisin, not the seed. Thus the current thinking is that grape seed may be safe to use.”

Grape seed is often found with antioxidant supplements used for human cancer treatments. The seed induces the cell deaths of highly replicating cancer cells. There was a study done on men with prostate carcinoma which showed approximately 90% inhibition of the pathways that induces the growth of the cancer cells. 

The flavanoids in the seed are known to reduce inflammation, and support the immune system particularly with respiratory issues, allergies, and skin problems. It has been used in cats and dogs successfully without any reported problems.


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## sandooch

Hmmm...I was googling tear stains (yet again) and came across an all natural, herbal, antibiotic-free product for tear stains called Purifeye. I've never heard of it, but some people were saying it worked for thier dogs. I'm going to do more research on it, but it sounds promising.


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## sandooch

Liljacker, I'm so sorry, but I didn't even see your replies to me until today. Do you know of any success stories, aside from your sister, of grape seed extract helping dogs with tear staining?


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## georgiapeach

Interesting about the grapeseed extract since grapes are toxic to dogs. 

Regarding the grainfree causing problems: If you've tried several different varieties, could it be the potatoes causing the problem? My boxer puppy, Brodie, couldn't eat any of those premium brands, no matter what the protein source, and we decided that maybe the potatoes were the problem. When we recently switched him to a lamb and rice (California Natural seems to work best right now; Holistic Selects Lamb Meal and Rice was okay), things started improving.


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## sandooch

Thanks for that information about the potatoes, Beth. I will be checking out that food next. I won't give up until Gigi is tearstain free.


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