# The dreaded crate



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Do you ever crate him when you aren't leaving? Hans is the first dog I've crate trained (also the first puppy I've had - my previous dog was a rescue). We started out crating him at night to sleep and for short periods during the day (he doesn't sleep in our bed, it is really tall). He actually liked his crate (we are phasing it out now, since he is 6mos old and he isn't left alone much). I'm wondering if getting used to the crate for short periods with you there might help. So he doesn't just associate it with you leaving. I think Hans learned that his crate (and now his bed) was his personal spot where he could go if he wanted some space.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Could you perhaps try an x-pen until he is crate trained? Still safe, but a bit less confining, and as the puppy pad is in the pen rather than the crate, it would not confuse his house training. There is a good description on Dog Star Daily of using a crate for short term confinement and a pen for longer periods.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

fjm said:


> Could you perhaps try an x-pen until he is crate trained? Still safe, but a bit less confining, and as the puppy pad is in the pen rather than the crate, it would not confuse his house training. There is a good description on Dog Star Daily of using a crate for short term confinement and a pen for longer periods.


I plan on using Ian Dunbar's set up too. We have a larger airline crate and I have connected a puppy pen to the door. I am fortunate enough to be able to bring my puppy to work with me and she will have a very similar set up there too. I have taken a very shallow tub , put a grate in the bottom and a roll of sod/grass on top for her potty. That is placed so far from her bed as possible. 

I think you might end up making house training more difficult for you and your puppy with a puppy pad in the crate. Also if your dog's crate is large enough to accommodate her bed and a pee pad and you decide to use Dr Dunbar's setup you might consider sectioning the crate to make it smaller. Good luck.

PS take a look at how PoodleRick crate trained his spoo girl Penny.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I think crates are wonderful to use while you are away from home. My dogs were crated while I was at work for the first year or so of their lives until I was sure they were through the puppy chewing phase, but I have 2 large crates in the basement. When I have to take one to the vet, the other dog is crated, only because the dog would be confused being home alone (without the other dog). I also crate both dogs in the basement when there might be thunderstorms or tornado warnings while I am at work. It is the safest place for them, and saves ME from worrying so much that I am tempted to leave work and drive home in bad weather to make sure they are ok. When I do put my dogs in their crates, I say "Time to go to bed," and they RUN down the stairs and jump inside. I always give them a treat once they are laying down inside the crate, and another treat once I close the door. Then they are left with low lighting and a CD of soft music playing. (No one can say my dogs are spoiled!) I have even instructed the dog sitters I use periodically on how to crate the dogs in the basement. When my older dog Phoenix was a puppy, I would leave her crated with the other dogs while I went to work, and she would HOWL when I left her. I felt sorry for the other dogs having to listen to her. After a few weeks, she stopped howling and got use to it. I never left them crated long than 3-4 hours. Now Phoenix is going on 13 years and she is the first one in the crate when there is bad weather. In fact, I may be just passing through the basement on the way to the grooming room, and she jumps in the crate and lays down. So I go over and give her a treat, then go to the grooming room. I always want to reward that behavior. It is good that your dog likes her crate even if you don't have to use it very often.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

*x-pen*



fjm said:


> Could you perhaps try an x-pen until he is crate trained? Still safe, but a bit less confining, and as the puppy pad is in the pen rather than the crate, it would not confuse his house training. .


There's 2 cats and another dog that will get into the pen - I know the cats will and that's just not good for him, I don't think.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

I don't have a basement so I crate him in my bedroom behind a door, low lighting, TV playing so the other animals don't pester him. I'm rearranging the house and may move it into the living room and keep the door open so he can come and go as he pleases with special treats when I have to leave.

He has a crate only treat and a crate only toy and he goes in on his own - I don't have to pick him up and plop him thankfully. The crate is roomy, I got the one for the large dogs with the little divider screen so it'll grow with him. 

I like the treat any time he goes in - that'll make it pleasant. thanks


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

We have kenneled our two since they were puppies. They will soon be 9 years old. Their kennel is their "safe place" and they really don't want to be running around the house when we are not here. They always get a "kennel treat" when they go into the kennel. When we start changing clothes or if I pick up my purse to leave, my two automatically go and get into their kennel. I don't even have to tell them to. I rarely leave them in the kennel more than 4 hours at a time, but have on rare occasion left them 6 or 7 hours and they have done fine. It may help that I have two so they have a companion and don't feel so alone. I also do leave the TV on for them while I am gone. It's hard to hear them cry when you leave, but he will adjust more quickly than you think once he realized that you will be back to let him out.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Well, I moved his kennel to the living room with the door kept open so he can enjoy it when I'm home and in there too. Special treats to catch him going in. His toy box, nearby and the TV easy to see. A nice blanket to cover 3 sides leaving the feeling of a safe den and yet, visibility. I just need to stay strong.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

This ended up being a no biggie. I get everything ready when I head out - I give him his special treat and say "Mommy's going to work" then toss it in the kennel, he goes in, I close it and he whimpers a little. I come home, he's quiet, I take him out and he's happy to see me.

He goes in and out of the crate during the day and night when I'm home too. WHEW.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Awesome! Like you said, you just needed to be strong. but, I think letting him go in and out all of the time helps, too! Good information!!


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## wiseoldwoman (Mar 14, 2014)

GeriDe said:


> This ended up being a no biggie. I get everything ready when I head out - I give him his special treat and say "Mommy's going to work" then toss it in the kennel, he goes in, I close it and he whimpers a little. I come home, he's quiet, I take him out and he's happy to see me.
> 
> He goes in and out of the crate during the day and night when I'm home too. WHEW.


I'm so glad things worked out. I will be trying crate training for my new puppy when I get her in a week or so. I never persevered with my other dogs; I couldn't stand the crying. This time, I've done some more research and will keep at it since I'm convinced it's for the good of the new baby. Thanks for creating this thread, I was able to learn a little based on the thoughtful responses. Congrats on your new baby; can't wait to get mine home!


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

I think what helped me was the crate was only closed when I left and I was gone and couldn't hear the crying. I've stood outside for 10-15 minutes and he stops crying within a few. When I get home, he just stands quietly and waits to be released.

A big key is the SUPER TREATS he only gets in his crate. Smoked ham bones, rib bones, pork snouts, ram horns...he is a little hesitant to go in but with a gentle nudge on his but (since he now thinks he can pop his head in and try to run) he goes in and loses the battle but wins the treat.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Keep in mind dogs can't tell time...as long as you are in control of making sure they get out for potty breaks and lots of exercise, they'll be fine. At some point you likely won't need the crate anymore although dogs often like it as a bed even when you don't close the door.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

I don't crate him at night. I sleep on the sofa watching TV and he just sleeps on the floor near me, always did...well once he realized it was more comfy than sleeping ON ME. 

I think the secret was two things: 1] I have 2 or 3 special treats he LOVES and only gets when I go to work and 2] I leave and don't hear him cry.

Now, I put him in when I'm cleaning house and he's insufferable with the crying and barking but I pop the earplugs in, listen to music and sing and ignore him.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so he doesn't get super treats when he's in the crate and you're cleaning?


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Indiana said:


> Keep in mind dogs can't tell time...<snip>


Not so fast--apparently they can, through a curious method that should not be a surprise.

Video: Dogs' Sense of Time | Watch NOVA Online | PBS Video


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

My two rescued rat terriers were about a year or more old when they arrived and one will accept the crate (the younger one) and the other VERY reluctantly (basically, the crate in the car)--but he doesn't destroy the house while I'm gone. 

A big hobby of mine is obedience and rally. Devlin (one the ratties) was very successful showing, but also high-maintenance because he won't crate quietly at shows. When I got Neely, I knew that a standard poodle who wouldn't crate would be a nightmare, so on his first night home at 8 weeks, it was straight in the crate in the bedroom. He never cried, and didn't need any trips outside in the middle of the night (but we ran for the door in the morning!). Now age 2, he's a pillow killer, so he's not allowed lose in the house unsupervised.

The bonus is that the poodle crates beautifully in a folding fabric crate at shows, sometimes for hours if I'm judging or helping steward. (Devlin would have shredded it long since!) I hear the occasional grumble if another dog gets too close, but a towel draped over whatever side faces out usually keeps him quiet while he can still watch other things going on.

I do have an advantage over most people in that I work at home, and I'm not sure I would have gotten ANY dogs if I weren't either able to take them to work or to work at home. 

Also--one more reason he still sleeps in the crate is because the ratties sleep on the bed--or in the bed, under the covers. I was afraid the poodle might suffocate them by accident. Besides, when I've tried letting him on the bed at night, he fidgets, traps me by lying across my legs, and puts his nose in my face. Sheesh!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Indiana said:


> Keep in mind dogs can't tell time...as long as you are in control of making sure they get out for potty breaks and lots of exercise, they'll be fine. At some point you likely won't need the crate anymore although dogs often like it as a bed even when you don't close the door.





mvhplank said:


> Not so fast--apparently they can, through a curious method that should not be a surprise.
> 
> Video: Dogs' Sense of Time | Watch NOVA Online | PBS Video



the sample consists of one dog, so i expect there will be disputes about the conclusion. but assuming there is some actual truth that has been uncovered, i wonder where this kind of discovery is going to leave the rote "you're anthropomorphizing" answer given in so many instances when people talk about their dogs.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

patk said:


> the sample consists of one dog, so i expect there will be disputes about the conclusion. but assuming there is some actual truth that has been uncovered, i wonder where this kind of discovery is going to leave the rote "you're anthropomorphizing" answer given in so many instances when people talk about their dogs.


I imagine it's pretty hard to get a bigger sample of "dogs who predict the owner's return." I was satisfied with the experiment as shown--we know it tells us how one dog does it and we may learn something new if the experiment is repeated with another seemingly time-telling dog.

However, the people who say "you're anthropomorphizing" are under-educated:
"Dogs are People, Too" (New York Times).


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

mvhplank said:


> I imagine it's pretty hard to get a bigger sample of "dogs who predict the owner's return." I was satisfied with the experiment as shown--we know it tells us how one dog does it and we may learn something new if the experiment is repeated with another seemingly time-telling dog.
> 
> However, the people who say "you're anthropomorphizing" are under-educated:
> "Dogs are People, Too" (New York Times).


totally agree, mvhplank. behavioral studies are not only not easily quantified, they are not easily arranged. that's why field studies and anecdotal evidence are important and why we need to be somewhat flexible about conclusions. gregory berns' work is very possibly going to lead to some tough questioning of some long-held beliefs and "scientific conclusions" about animals, and dogs in particular. interesting times.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

patk said:


> so he doesn't get super treats when he's in the crate and you're cleaning?


He gets them any time he's crated.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

GeriDe said:


> > Originally Posted by *patk*
> > so he doesn't get super treats when he's in the crate and you're cleaning?
> 
> 
> He gets them any time he's crated.


It might be worth your while to look into "Crate Games." I have a copy of Susan's DVD--it looks like a fun program that the dogs enjoy. Also useful for augmenting training other skills.

The terriers and Neely get into barking fests and I used to fuss at the poodle when I put him in his crate--result? More barking. Now I toss in treats with him, tell him he's a good boy (provided he's not actively barking), and the result is a happier dog and person.

I work at home doing editing, which requires some concentration. So being out of the crate is a privilege that he's earning more and more often, but I continue to use it for management--to keep him from roughhousing with the other dogs under my desk or chewing on things that aren't toys.


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

I've always heard dogs have no concept of time, but my two always know when it's time for dinner and they don't hesitate to let us know. And Abbey starts reminding me it's bedtime at 10:00 pm every night. She can be very insistent about wanting ME to go to bed so she can curl up behind my knees. So I frequently get in bed and watch TV so she is happy. . . .what can I say?? I'm a poodle mom!!


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

mvhplank said:


> It might be worth your while to look into "Crate Games." I have a copy of Susan's DVD--it looks like a fun program that the dogs enjoy. Also useful for augmenting training other skills.


I can look into it but I have no problem crating him. I say "mommy's going to work", he goes in and waits for his special treat. I come home, he stands and waits patiently for me to let him out - he doesn't even get upset if I run to the bathroom for me first.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

*Starting to use it as Home*

The past couple of days, I've observed Khaos using his crate to just sit with a toy and chill or take a nap. Ahhhhhhhh


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

GeriDe said:


> The past couple of days, I've observed Khaos using his crate to just sit with a toy and chill or take a nap. Ahhhhhhhh


Crates are great! Both for the dogs and for our peace of mind.


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## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Just napping ma!


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