# He won't stop barking



## fjm

Mine both went through this at much the same age - it is as if they became responsible for warning the family, but did not yet have the experience to know what was or was not dangerous, so barked at everything. I had jackdaws trying to nest at the time, and Sophy barked every time they dropped a twig ... and jackdaws drop a lot of twigs!

I found Turig Rugaas' booklet "Barking - the sound of a language" very useful. I suspect your biggest problem is going to be getting your family to cooperate in teaching Weegee better ways, but this is how I got my two toys barking down to manageable levels - you've probably done it all before with your other dogs:
1 - Never join in. Shouting, saying NO!, etc, etc just convinces the dog there must be something really worth barking at, as you are barking too!
2 - Acknowledge and respond. If, as I think, pups need to learn what is worth barking at, you thanking them for the warning, checking, and calmly ignoring whatever it is, is an object lesson that something is harmless. Turid Rugaas recommends standing with your back to the dog, facing whatever it is, until the dog is calm. It takes a while, but did work for us round about the 40th twig ...
3 - Lots and lots of exercise, physical and mental. Bored dogs bark for fun.
4 - Teach a good Settle cue - treat the dog when they are lying down relaxed, and then introduce the cue word.
5 - Teach a good recall, and call and treat the dog when they bark.
6 - Many people have had success putting barking on cammand - and then never giving the command!

I am not sure about picking him up - if he is barking because something is making him anxious, picking him up may confirm that it is truly scarey, I would work on thanking him, rather than correcting him, and giving him something else to do, rather than picking him up. Perhaps your family may be prepared to distract him by calling him for a treat when he barks, if you put pots of treats in strategic positions around the house?


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## tortoise

Stop reinforcing/rewarding it by picking him up! He is barking because he finds it rewarding. Howver, barking in itself can be self-rewarding - we can talk about that later if the simple stuff doesn't work.

When he barks, something "bad" has to happen. You need to control the environment so nothing "good" happens.

"Good" things that happen: Think mailman here. The dog barks and the mailman leaves. Every day the dog learns "If I bark the bad guy goes away". This also applies to removing your dog from a situation. If your dog is barking and you remove him from the situation, you have reinforced the barking. Your dog must stop barking before you take him from the situation. This includes turning and walking the other direction on a walk. In addition to fueling barking, this feeds a nervous disposition and makes it much worse than nature intended.

"Bad" things that need to happen:
* He barks. Say "No" or "Ot" and put him in a down stay. Keep him in that down stay for a long time. Maybe 30 minutes. 
* He barks. Say "No" or "Ot" and put him in a crate for a couple of hours.
* He barks. You gain physical control (pick up the leash), but you remain emotionally distant.
* He barks while on the couch. Push him off the couch suddenly.
Are these making sense? They certainly are consequences, but they're not harmful, mean, cruel, whatever.

I get the vibe that Weegee has way too much freedom - and stress - in his life. 

Dial back his freedom by using crating, leashing, controlling toys and treats for example. For a stressed out vocal dog, it helps immensely to have your dog on leash or in a crate all the time. He can still be part of your family, of course. Just keep a leash on. Use down stays whenever possible (supper time, TV time, internet time are times that he can be in a down stay at your feet). Stop free-feeding if you are and feed on a schedule. Or, put his daily food ration in a treat pouch and feed it to him through the day. (This is fun, it forces you to reward your dog's good behavior more than normal). Pick up toys from the floor. Take them out frequently to play, but put them away afterwards. Don't pet him until he does an obedience command first. The more affectionate you are with him, the better behaved he will get! For example, have him get off the couch on command before you let him jump in your lap for cuddles. Have him sit before he can jump on your bed. Have him sit before you pet him. You're not limiting affection, you're adding cooperation and good behavior before you give it.

His stress level and barking should both drop dramatically in 2 weeks.


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## PammiPoodle

FJM, I'd love to meet your dogs and see the final results of your methods! I train Lumi in much the same ways, we're just not at the results point! : P

Vicky2200, you've got wonderful advice above. I'd add to that to try to create an environment that won't trigger Weegee unless you're free to work with him. Lumi also barks at random noises, and when we're outside she barks at far away people and dogs, or any that act weird! : P To prevent Lumi from being constantly triggered (I can't work with her every second!) I keep the radio or a movie on most of the time. Especially during the evening when people are coming home and slamming car doors and kids are playing in the yards. When I have an opportunity and there's noise outside, I'll turn off the "buffer noise" and maybe even open a window, and reward Lumi every time she notices and doesn't bark at a noise. If she does bark, I ignore it and try to find (or I'll ask for) a rewardable behavior as quickly as possible to change the tone back to fun. Usually this means we've already gone too far, so I'll just try to get her happy again with a few cues and rewards or one more big jackpot for not barking at the noise, and then close the window and get the radio back on! : P I don't want to end the sessions on a bad note, even if it's just her remaining in an unsure/nervous state.

I would caution against any form of correction at these times. Weegee is genuinely concerned about something, as silly as it may be, and if he feels that barking is inappropiate at those times, he may find other ways to express himself, such as cowering in fear, lunging or becoming aggressive, or trying to leap into your arms. Lumi used to do those little whisper barks before progressing to full barks and then baying. I, admittedly, yelled at her several times for barking at things, back when she was being "reasonable" and starting all her alerts with the quieter barks. As a result, Lumi learned I responded unfavorably to those quiet barks, and now she immediately bays when she gets spooked. Agh!!! That one came back to bite me in the butt! Every time I dabble with aversives I learn a new lesson! The worst thing that can happen, though, is if Weegee feels threatened by you in his times of need. He'll be more fearful if he knows scary stimulus also means hostile packmates. If your family also corrects him, I'd protect Weegee from that by crating him or keeping him in a separate room, with a radio on, whenever you're not with him. I understand these corrections are likely not physical, but if it's meant to frighten him out of barking, that means these corrections are MORE SCARY than the thing that initially caused him to bark!! That's fuel to the fire.

I do pick up Lumi when she's frightened, if it will help and I have no other way to get her into a calmer state. I actually carry her to the local park because she's often triggered to bark on walks. She's about 90% less likely to bark at something when I'm holding her. I assume that's because she feels safer. It's like training wheels! If she can't handle something on her feet, I'll get her comfortable with it in my arms. I've also been known to do (the dreaded) "It's okay.."-cuddle! Hahaha I used to tell my clients all the time that they were reinforcing their dogs fear by coddling them, but now I've seen that it can help when used correctly. If I don't have treats (or she's too scared to take them) and I can't remove us from the situation, I will use my hands and voice to calm her down. It works for us! I just pet her slowly and firmly, speak in a very calm voice and ask for kisses if she seems like she can listen and respond. I also will use my body to block her view of the object, and if it's a noise I'll try to speak over or at least during it. In the end, it's most important to condition them to the not be afraid in the first place and keep them from being in situations that freak them out, but when it happens, I do whatever I can to help her feel safe and protected. If holding Weegee is an extension of the correction ("Now I've got you, you HAVE to be quiet!"), I would stop doing it. But, if it's a way of offering support and lessening his fear and you have no other options (leading him into another room with buffer noise?), I'd say go for it! The ultimate goal is to teach him to stand on his own four feet, of course. It's just a band-aid for those inescapable frights!


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## PammiPoodle

My gosh, night and day between my post and Tortoise's!! :ahhhhh: Just goes to show there's as much dichotomy in dog training as there is in dog breeds!! Good luck finding what works for you and Weegee! : )


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## fjm

Poppy will occasionally bark at other dogs - usually when we have just got out of the car and she is all revved up and excited about going for a walk. I simply turn and walk back the way we came for 10 steps or so - it stops it immediately. Both dogs have been known to bark at something really weird - I remember Sophy having a conniption when she saw a chap with a baby in a backpack. When I looked at it from her perspective, it was a two-headed human - very weird indeed! They are also wary of legless humans (walking behind a slope or a hedge that blurs into the grass), cows in trees (the cows were actually in the field behind the tree, but from close to the ground it looked exactly as if they were walking along the branches), and other things that looked perfectly normal to me, but extremely odd to them. Even a white box left out in an unusual place will trigger a warning - it is something strange in a familiar environment, so may be dangerous.

I don't think it is fair to punish a dog for barking - we have spent millenia breeding them to be watch dogs, and it seems a bit extreme to expect them to turn that inheritance off in a few decades just because we say so. But I do try to keep barking to a minimum. Mine are allowed a few yaps at the postman (it's useful to know when letters and parcels arrive), a quick warning bark at any bells or alarms that go off (my kitchen pinger is very soft so an extra warning is useful, and Sophy hears the noise the phone makes before it starts ringing), and to let me know when there are visitors at the door (I don't have a doorbell). They are positively encouraged to tell me if I have accidentally shut them out in the garden, or into a bedroom. 

The adolescent warnings were hard work, but only lasted a few weeks, and I tried very hard to get quieter and quieter, rather than to join in. Now if the barking continues past three or four yaps I ask them to Settle down, or to Come, and they usually oblige. If they don't, I know it is something really important that probably needs me. Barking just for attention gets firmly ignored, and they therefore rarely bother with it.

So my dogs are not silent - but we have worked out a balance that suits us, and stays well within the neighbours' tolerance levels.


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## tortoise

:lol: @ Pammi. Sometimes we say the same thing, and sometimes totally different! 

I think this problem is bigger than just barking. I'm going off a hunch. But my advice won't cause damage if my hunch is wrong, so I'm confident to put it out there. I would love to see video of this dog!

Pammi makes a good point about other family members. I am so ingrained with working dogs that I forget when I come here that we don't have that common background. It's pretty much impossible to train people. It's pretty much impossible to get everyone in the family to respond to a problem behavior in the same way. This is a problem because the one person that isn't cooperating is creating a random reward schedule and unintentionally intensifying the behavior! I have always lived "my dog don't touch". For example, my fiance has a dog and I have a dog. We live together. We can both feed, potty, basic handling of each other's dogs. We can do some very basic training to make handling the other's dog easier (my fiance taught my dog to crate when he is feeing his dog). Other than the most basic interaction to keep dogs alive and keep u sane, we don't mess with each other's dogs. My fiance's dog goes to him for affection/play 99% of the time. My dog comes to me for training/play. This prevents my working dog from making a bond that keeps him from working. It makes sure that we're not untraining each other's dog. (We each use a different set of verbal cues for the same obedience commands). We are not too formal about it, but many other mult-dog families are very strict about "my dog don't touch", with only the requirment that the dog is not a danger to other family members.

The reason I bring this up is because it can be used temporarily ( a couple weeks) when you are dealing with a tough behavior problem. Consistency is necessary. It can be achieved more easily if only one or 2 people in the household are handling to dog. 2 weeks might feel like a long time, but a lifetime of barking and yelling about it will be much more painful for everyone.

Barking is a self-rewarding behavior most of the time. The dog barks because it feels good of finds it reinforcing. There are few exceptions, but generally it is self-rewarding. Barking is not a behavior you can expect to quietly wait out. Yes, you *can*, but you might be standing with your dog for 8 hours or more waiting for it to stop barking. Eventually it will stop or die, but this is not practical training. You'll likely be visited by the police before you get an opportunity to reward your dog. With barking you cannot control the entire environment and all resources. Barking is a behavior that limits the extent that "all-positive" (rofl) training can be used.

Dog training is not smoke and mirrors. There is no magic. If a behavior is rewarded, it will be repeated. If a behavior is punished (using the scientific definition, not the social/cultural definition) it will be reduced. *Make rewards happen when your dog is quiet. Take away the reward when the dog barks. *It's fundamentally simple with many applications - some more effective than others.

Be aware that problem certain problem behaviors are manifestation of other problems. Like a separation issue can be expression of a bonding and trust problem. Barking is many times expression of anxiety and pack issues.


Barking can be an aggravating problem and most people struggle with how to deal with it. Yesterday at work (vet clinic), a lady can in with a little schnauzer. The dog barked in excitement about 5 times when it came in the door, and the owner proceeded to YELL at her poor dog (who was now being quiet and good!) for 5 - 10 minutes. "No! Bad Dog! Be Quiet! No Bark" OMG, we could hear it through the entire building. The dog was QUIET - the owner was YELLING. 

Don't let frustration - yours or a family members - damage your relationship with your dog. Learn to turn off frustration and anger. No matter how you _feel_, the instant your dog is quiet you must switch to happy kisses and cookies.

Dog training can be summed up in 4 sentences:

REWARD the good.
IGNORE or LIMIT the bad.
CORRECT the dangerous or defiant. _(Doesn't apply to barking except something like if the barking will get you evicted and you would have to rehome your dog. Obviously the surprise of one correction is much less than the stress of re-homing.)_
Whatever is rewarded will be repeated.

There are thousands of applications, but there is nothing novel or new in dog training. If you're method or application of choice follows those 3 sentences then it should be effective.


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## fjm

I agree with most of what you say, Tortoise, but I also think it is important to think about WHY the dog is barking. It may develop into a self rewarding passtime, but surely it starts as communication - anything from "I am excited, play with me!" to "Warning - danger alert!", via "Where are you, I am here!", and "Go away!". Ignoring the "Play with me!" bark is actually pretty effective, especially if you reward the first moment of quiet with a really good game; ignoring the "Danger!" bark is likely to lead to an escalation of ever louder and more urgent barking - responding by checking out the danger is more successful. And stepping between the dog and the source of anxiety - whether a falling twig, another dog or the Abominable Snowman (my niece in her festival sleep suit) - gives a strong message of reassurance that you are on the case, and will always protect her, which over time builds the trust that means she can relax and leave you to deal with the scarey stuff.

(I had to break off in the middle of this - my dogs were lying politely in front of my chair, drilling holes in me with their eyes - it was supper time, and they knew there was chicken defrosted in the kitchen!)


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## tortoise

I'm thinking it is a barking out of anxiety, guessing from the OP's description. Some people use the term "insecure dominant" to describe a dog that is so desparate for leadership and protection that it assumes the protective role. 

Taking away the status and stress fixes the barking problem. If it is this, the problem should be fixed within 2 weeks just by implementing structure and removing reward for barking.

Being more "gentle" is less effective and torturous in my opinion. Why would you subject your dog to months of stress when providing the structure your dog need relieves the stress. Dogs have better attitude when they are given structure - it is not unkind.

There are 3 different barking threads in the last 2 days. I gave each of them very different answers!


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## sarpoodle

tortoise said:


> Dog training can be summed up in 4 sentences:
> 
> REWARD the good.
> IGNORE or LIMIT the bad.
> CORRECT the dangerous or defiant. _(Doesn't apply to barking except something like if the barking will get you evicted and you would have to rehome your dog. Obviously the surprise of one correction is much less than the stress of re-homing.)_
> Whatever is rewarded will be repeated.
> 
> There are thousands of applications, but there is nothing novel or new in dog training. If you're method or application of choice follows those 3 sentences then it should be effective.


I'm with you tortoise, I tend to view these problems from the perspective of a working dog. For me at least, it tends to help make things a bit more black and white, and remove the some of the emotion generally associated with my dog being a pet. My current working dog has taught me quite a bit about the concept of self-rewarding. The application of this however is towards keeping her energy in reserve for training, and not allowing her to bleed it off on things she wants to do. From the pure perspective of a dog being strictly a pet, that connection likely doesn't exist nor seem apparent. As fjm says, knowing the root cause is certainly helpful because it gives you an area to address. Both perspectives are interesting when it comes to problems such as this. It also helps to explain to somebody with less experience and knowledge as to where a solution to a problem emanates.

I love the solutions presented by both you, tortoise, and you, fjm. It's like a great big grocery store where you can shop the aisles and pick up those items that suit your tastes and needs.

Coming from a working dog perspective, tortoise, your advice resonates with me, and as always, is solid. Regardless of the perspective however, your summation of the 4 general rules is the essence of training, distilled down into something very simple and understandable.

So, thanks to both of you, tortoise and fjm, for your invaluable information and recommendations.

Greg


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## tortoise

The phrase "Anything is rewarded will be repeated" comes from a head trainer at Lackland (where USA military dogs are trained). He's a kind man and was very helpful when I was getting interest in scent detection training. The "There is no smoke and mirrors in dog training" is also stolen from him. Good thoughts that apply to every venue, sport, or lack-of in dog training. 

And it works with children also! :lol:


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## sarpoodle

tortoise said:


> The phrase "Anything is rewarded will be repeated" comes from a head trainer at Lackland (where USA military dogs are trained). He's a kind man and was very helpful when I was getting interest in scent detection training. The "There is no smoke and mirrors in dog training" is also stolen from him. Good thoughts that apply to every venue, sport, or lack-of in dog training.


Who is the trainer? Has he written anything that can be recommended?

Greg


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## tortoise

sarpoodle said:


> Who is the trainer? Has he written anything that can be recommended?
> 
> Greg


I hope I am not confusing names. I think it is David Frost. I don't think he has published anything, but he is free with advice and stories. Find him here: http://www.workingdogforum.com/vBulletin/members/david-frost/


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## fjm

Reminds me of old management sayings - "What you measure is what you get - and what you reward you will get repeatedly!"


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## pgr8dnlvr

Well? Has the OP had any progress or found anything that works for them?

Rebecca


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## Leooonie

I dont see the lessening of the freedom will help with the barking so much if it is habitual.

Harley still has the same 'issue' of barking to .. in essence.. warn others he is scary.. when really his is just quiet anxious. Poodles are known for their beautiful singing voice.. but as you've realised it isnt always appreciated.

What I would like to know.. does he have any 'breaks' .. if so utilise these by immediately trotting with him away from what he is barking at. If he is truly anxious this acts a reward in itself, and you can 'bonus reward' by giving a small treat too.

If he does not stop, try in someway to get his attention..stand in front of him.. tap him on the rump (no slapping!) move about around him, cough.. yawn... the moment he sniffs the ground, looks at you, stops, or does anything NOT barking.. mark his stoppign with a 'yes!' or with a clicker (if you have food) and trot away form what he is barking at..giving praise when you're... 10..20ft away 

If he sees something he will bark at, make sure you stay a distance away.. and when he is not longer looking or is 'distracted' by something else... mark it.. and trot away.. maybe giving food. eventually he should become more confident generally.

I do suggest use of a clicker or marker work.. the dog can strongly associate the noise with reward. if you try it out with some basic commands first getting him used to it (just 'warm up' the marker with using it.. then food.. and repeat til there is recognition)
that way when you are out and about.. you know and he knows for sure what you do is rewarding him if you use a marker.

It may be a good idea to get a squeaky toy... squeak it manicly until he barks... then wait. when is quiet completely cue your 'quiet' command...mark, then give a great food reward.. .. repeat for a few sessions teaching. then sneak in the "quiet" and mark between a barking session (dogs tend to bark in groups of barks.. so maybe 5 barks.. tiny break.. another 5 and so on). eventually he should catch on. then you can try it outside....... and then eventually there will be recognition when he is barking at something, and between a barking session you can cue the "quiet".
When I taught Harley it.. I put my finger to my lips.. and this can act as a cue too.... it looks pretty impressive too!

hope that helps


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