# choke chains



## outwest

PS I walk three dogs at a time when my husband isn't available to take a couple. I want it to be peaceful. I can walk him one on one without trouble because I am able to correct him easily, but with three dogs his shenanigans are a little trying.


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## sarahmurphy

We were told we might want to consider a prong collar - somehow, a choke chain is less acceptable than a pinching pronged chain??? 

What we did use was an ez walk harness and the sort of walk that takes half an hour and gets you 100 feet because you stop every time there is tension on the leash.... 

If you ask 100 people, you'll get 100 opinions - you have to do what works for you and your dogs. 

sarah


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## tokipoke

I use a prong with Leroy. He's REALLY strong when he wants to be, and gets excited easily. He always chokes himself on all other collars till he throws up, but never on the prong. I know there's different opinions on this type of collar. I have been going back and forth between his rolled leather collar and the prong, trying to wean him off of it. The prong works but it does tangle hair. I've used a slip lead which would be similar to a choke chain - it didn't do anything.


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## Fluffyspoos

The thing I don't like about the choke chains is that dogs don't seem effected by them and would rather damage their trachea's than walk correctly. When I walk my two together I use prong collars, they're great on their own, but together it's a choke fest. I had a professional trainer show me how to use them correctly, my dogs don't choke, I enjoy my walk, and they enjoy their walk.

No, I don't appreciate anyone's criticism, this works for us and your negative opinion will only boost your own ego and be ignored by me.


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## MaryLynn

Since he is for show, I am not sure you might not like a prong or chain possibly messing up his fur? What about those quick release choke style leads made out of rope or fabric with the wider bands? I'm not really sure, I am not necessarily against martingale or choke chains but in my experience with them if my dogs wanted to pull they would rather gag themselves then stop pulling.


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## lily cd re

I also use pinch collars when I alone walk my two dogs. Together they are about 125 pounds. If they both want to chase the same squirrel they will drag me down the street. If they want to go in different directions then I don't have much choice other than to let go of at least one of them. I also use a pinch collar sometimes in obedience class for heeling on leash.

I actually think a pinch collar is more humane than an unlimited slip collar (choke chain). If used properly a dog very quickly learns through self corrections that are really quite mild. Put the pinch collar over your own arm with a light weight shirt on. Give a little quick tug. This is what your dog feels. I read it like "that's annoying, what should I do to make it stop?" If you are in a hurry and put an unlimited slip collar on backwards your dog can be really hurt by it because you pull over and over and it just gets tighter and tighter. I also have seen many dogs that will just keep pulling against a choke chain, but have never had either dog pull against a pinch collar. 

The bottom line is that I think there are many tools that we can use in training. The key points are to understand how and why they work and to use them properly. Aversives should be used sparingly and have to be very well timed so the dog understands why the correction they are experiencing is being given. With any kind of collar, just jerking on it and dragging the dog around by it is unfair.


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## mom24doggies

I really am against choke chains...as others have stated there is no limit to how tight they can be pulled. A prong collar, IMHO, is the better choice. That being said, I would be hesitant to use one on a developing puppy. Also poodles have slim, easily damaged necks. I have used a prong collar on my Sammie before but she has a thick, heavily muscled neck like a pit bull...it certainly didn't harm her any! Also, any kind of chain or linked metal is going to seriously break coat...lots of it. Have you tried either being a tree or turning around and going in the opposite direction? I use those methods and they work pretty well. My kids hate walking in the opposite direction we were going before, I guess to them it seems like we aren't continuing the fun walk.


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## outwest

Thanks! Lots of great ideas. The martingale semichoke messes his hair up, too. I thought a regular metal chain might not, perhaps one of the diamond link ones. Usually, a choke chain is snapped and released quickly. They don't choke and there is a right and wrong way to put them on. I knew they were out of favor when I went to buy one and the petco said they didn't carry them anymore. They have all these gentle leader things, which seem worse than a properly used choke collar. I don't think a prong collar is a good idea for him because of the hair issue, but don't have anything against them. I may show him only UKC and his hair isn't as big a deal there. 

I appreciate the thoughts and ideas! 

mom24, turning quickly really does help, but when you have three dogs it's not possible or you are jerking the good dogs, too. I think the answer is walk him by himself until reliable and then add the other dogs later. 

Wish us luck! 
I need to get him trained.


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## Quossum

When I first started training, choke chains were still THE tool to use, and I was no exception. I had a "fur saver" one for my poodle; it had large, oblong links.

I no longer use choke chains. Now I walk the dogs on martingales or with their Julius K-9 harnesses. In your situation, I'd use a prong rather than a choke for all the reasons mentioned. The head halter can be a very effective option as well; I used one for a while with Sugar when he was younger to work on distractions and on not pulling. 

The main thing I did to combat the pulling, though, was that I walked Sugarfoot by himself and *religiously* did the "be a tree" method, as well as praise and treats when he happened to be at my side in heel position. When I felt pressure on the leash, I stopped. Dead stop, said nothing. Leash slackened, I walked. It made for many very weird, awkward, and long walks when he was younger, but it put a great foundation on him. Now Sugar is still young and exuberant and will sometimes pull, but I need stop only briefly to remind him to get back with me.

Good luck!

--Q


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## lily cd re

It was late last night when I posted and looking again this morning at the further discussion, I should add that I did not use pinch collars on my dogs when they were puppies. To work on not pulling on walks with Lily, I took just her and I did the turn around method. For the first few weeks we never made it off our own block and I am sure my neighbors thought I was nuts. I left the learning not to pull for Peeves to my better half. He has more upper body strength to have given him good corrections. GSDs have lots of loose skin around the neck and I found it hard to give an effective correction. We used martingales when they were pups.


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## Chagall's mom

outwest said:


> I think the answer is walk him by himself until reliable and then add the other dogs later.
> 
> Wish us luck!
> I need to get him trained.



That approach gets my vote. Give Jazz your undivided attention while teaching him leash manners one-on-one. Add distractions when the time is right and work up to the three-dogs-at-a-time walking. This, of course, comes from someone with just one poodle, and who is not a proponent of aversives. This training technique worked _beautifully _when I was leash training Chagall. Good luck!:clover:


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## Indiana

Yeah, I can relate outwest because our dogs are the same--if you walk or run with only one of them, they are great. But if you try taking both of them, it's crazy. I had rope burn on my hands just last month because I had the leashes wound around my hands and they took off to smell something interesting, and they are extremely strong when they both pull at once, I have no choice but to lurch along behind them. So I do what you said, take one at a time if I'm going alone. Not perfect but I hope that as they get older they'll be as good together as they are now on their own


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## liljaker

First of all, remember I have had minis not spoos, but I remember a very well qualified, reputable trainer when Jake was about 4 months old and I was looking to get him into obedience classes....she said, "if anyone suggests using a choke chain collar, turn and walk out --- there is no reason whatsoever to use a choke chain collar on a puppy, especially a small puppy, to train how to walk on a loose leash." If that's what they suggest, they do not know what they are doing. Sure enough, I found a wonderful lady, who is retired and has helped with my Sunny out of retirement, and he was loose leash walking within a month.


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## vtomblin

Do not use a chain. It will take off a lot of hair. I would also recommend against using a martingale for the same reason. Get a choke with a neck protector or a flat nylon choke that will slip through the hair. When he is done up for the show he will look like a piece was cut out of his neck other wise. A choke should not be used consistently tight. A quick pop of correction back to loose leash is all you need. But doing this with two other dogs beside him won't work. Solo boy time. Poodles are so smart, he will pick it up so quick with you on special training walks with treats. Good luck!


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## outwest

Yah, I thought the choke chain would mess up hair. sigh. I'll get it done.


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## msminnamouse

Choke chains (obviously) constrict the windpipe and compress the sensitive nerves and blood vessels at the base of the skull where they carry sensation and oxygen to the greedy brain. If it gets high enough, under the ears, it can break the fragile hyoid bone and that's extremely painful and becomes prone to infection. This is actually how they determine if a corpse had been choked to death. Broken hyoid bone. 

I'm not okay with choking dogs or anything that does it for me. Even if the dog doesn't have the good sense to stop pulling. 

It also can lead to leash reactivity since dogs are associative learners. A dog can be watching children when a choke chain is digging into their necks and associate this with the children, then the dog starts lunging at the children, the choking gets worse, then the lunging gets worse, it's a vicious cycle. 

Teaching the dog to heel off leash in the quiet, relatively distraction free environment like the house is a good idea. My method is to first establish targeting. Then I have my hand at my side so the dog has to be in position at my side and touch my hand to get the reward. Then I start taking my hand away and putting it down sporadically so the dog always has to watch for it. They'd better be in place to target it if they want that reward. And it's a fun game. You start taking your hand away for longer and longer periods when the dog is conditioned to maintaining position. 

Your dog has to master this in the house before you can raise the criteria. Examples are, more distractions, longer periods of remaining by your side, amount of time you keep your hand up, longer periods of times between rewards, etc. You have to raise the criteria in careful, deliberate increments to set the dog up for success so they can master each new challenge. I go from the house to the backyard to the front yard to the driveway to the end of the drive to the sidewalk when no one else is out to a busier sidewalk, etc. 

Then you teach a release from heel so your dog can revert to just loose leash walking for hikes and what not. To be honest, I'm not really sure how to teach loose leash walking without the leash since they need to learn what freedom they can have in regards to the leash length. Again, start in the house. Front attach harnesses use the dog's momentum, if they pull, against them. It turns them to the side. They get no where fast. This is IF you can't handle the dog's strength without some kind of help. If you can, I don't even use a front attach harness, just a back attach one. I simply stop and don't budge until the dog's pulling stops. Don't forget to mark and a loose leash. Or you can turn and go in the opposite direction,although some dogs find this to reward their pulling so it really depends on your individual dog. 

Pulling gets them no where fast. That's no fun. Stop pulling and the walk gets to continue. It's the Premack principal (I dunno why all my posts seem to be about it today!) with the added bonus of a food reward or toy, if your dog likes them. For a toy, be sure to teach an "on" and "out/off". 

Devote the walk to where your dog wants to go (when safe). They can go anywhere or sniff anything if they do it on a loose leash. 

When leash skills are mastered, he'll know how to go where you lead him.

I hope all that makes sense. Results are more rapid than it sounds. Anyways, it's fun to teach. I don't find yanking on a dog's neck when they pull to correct them fun. I don't think the dog does either. It all comes down to what you want for your dog(s). I, personally, want better than that for them.

P.S. If a Martingale is so tight that it chokes him, it doesn't fit him correctly. It should only tighten just so that he can't slip his head of out it when the slack is gone.


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## Fond of Poodles

I used a thin, metal show choke on both my show dogs. Keeps the coat well, and works for training, .

I also used the "stop and go" training method. I train each dog alone to start with. If they walk nice, even out in front, we keep walking. If they pull, we stop. Then we start again with a "let's go" (same command I use in the ring". Once they've got that down (takes a few days for me), we work on slow and fast.

I still use chokers on all my dogs except Duke the greyhound.

I saw the pictures, what a handsome big boy he's becoming.

Colina


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## Arcticfox

I've considered choke chains before, not gonna lie, Tesla went through a period of being very frustrating to walk. She's a smaller spoo, at 45lbs. I basically combined clicker training and the occasional collar pop on a regular flat buckle and the stop/go method. I Consistently asked for heeling on walks (with occasional loose leash sniffing break). Never took a single step if there was pressure on the leash, yadda yadda. It took months of patience that I didn't have but now I have a 1 year old dog that walks at a heel 95% of the time. If there is something way too distracting for her to handle, like a surprise close proximity squirrel/duck, she doesn't lunge, but she does forget to keep walking with me until I call her. No choke collars used. 

I saw a video the other day that would've been very very useful months ago when walking the dog was a dreaded chore. It's kikopup's vid about teaching a dog to give in to leash pressure. Meaning the dog goes with the leash if there's pressure on it. It's a completely incompatible behavior with pulling on the leash, so that might help you out a lot.


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## Jdcollins

Fluffyspoos said:


> The thing I don't like about the choke chains is that dogs don't seem effected by them and would rather damage their trachea's than walk correctly. When I walk my two together I use prong collars, they're great on their own, but together it's a choke fest. I had a professional trainer show me how to use them correctly, my dogs don't choke, I enjoy my walk, and they enjoy their walk.
> 
> No, I don't appreciate anyone's criticism, this works for us and your negative opinion will only boost your own ego and be ignored by me.


Same exact with my two. And I do exactly as u do


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## lily cd re

As (I might have said this earlier) do I. 

I think we have to understand that this is an area where we will not have consensus. The most important things are that when people choose to use certain tools or techniques with their dogs: 1. they need to understand the correct use of the tool; 2 they apply its use fairly (meaning well timed so the dog understands why what is happening is happening). I also think that variable reinforcements can work with tools like pinch collars. I sometimes put pinch collars on but don't attach them to the leashes. Since they can open unexpectedly I always have a second collar on the dogs. They don't always know whether the pinch is in effect. Varying it makes them more thoughtful about taking those lunges.



Jdcollins said:


> Same exact with my two. And I do exactly as u do
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## msminnamouse

I'm not criticizing anything besides the fact that it's not about egos, it's about improving life for dogs.


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## liljaker

[removed my own post since I forgot I posted it earlier in the thread. Too much turkey I guess.]


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## lily cd re

msminnamouse, I wasn't being critical of your ideas. On the contrary, I find what you have to say to be very thoughtful, articulate and constructive. I think we are all clear that the best interest of our dogs is our most important shared interest. It is really just that I know lots of people have very visceral reactions to things like unlimited slip chains and pinch collars. It is good to be objective. But it is also good to have a diversity of opinions expressed, so that people can sort out their options about all of the things we discuss in the interest of our dogs' well being.


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## msminnamouse

Oh, I know.  And I do agree with you that we should be educated on the use of all the different tools out there. Even if it's just to knock something, you should at least know what you're knocking. 

I just didn't want the misconception out there that when people may disagree with a tool, it's most likely due to ego. I can't speak for others but when I perceive something as detrimental for dogs, it really has to do completely with the dogs and nothing to do with myself, besides my perception of it. 

I don't have much of an ego and if I do, I try to squash it. No one person can know everything and that's okay. I've done a lot of research and have had a lot of experience but I'm not above referring out cases or consulting with others on cases that are above my skill-set and this includes my own dogs. 

I see a pattern, however, with some of what I call the "backyard dog trainers". There are a lot in my area. People offering professional training when their education and experience is comprised of having dogs all their lives and then one difficult dog that they've mastered through an undue amount of corporal punishment and intimidation. That seems to be all they needed to know in order to go pro. The less they know how to handle a difficult dog, the more force they use to suppress the dog. They consider this a battle of wills and the dog giving in is what wins the battle. 

Using force is a lot easier than applying less force. To be good at applying force, you just need to apply it quick enough and hard enough to get the dog to mind you. It doesn't really matter why a dog is misbehaving, what their body language says, what different method you could try for this particular dog, etc. So I do see the appeal.

These people train dogs and only dogs. Some cats with spray bottles for everything. They don't appear to know how to train an animal that won't accept force due to size constraints or nature. You can't give collar corrections to a parrot. You can't force a hermit crab to willingly come to your hand. You can't force a goldfish to swim through an obstacle course. And good luck using corrections on an orca! I do NOT want to see how that might turn out. :ahhhhh:


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## msminnamouse

I forgot to mention my favorite game for loose leash walking and you can also use it as a warm up when leash walking is good or to re-establish leash manners when something makes the dog reactive.

Follow The Leader. Start this is in the house, when mastered, move to the yard, then move to the sidewalk, and onwards. With a leash on a harness, quickly dart to the left and stop abruptly. Reward the dog when they catch up. Dart several feet in another direction and stop. Reward the dog when they catch up again. Keep doing this, the dog has to be paying attention to keep up with you. Each time they catch up with you, reward them. You're not supposed to go so fast that you drag the dog. You want them to stay with you as much as they can. The more they focus and pay attention, the better they will become at this game. The game builds this.

The only stimulus here is the game and the reward when they "win" each time. 

While on walks, reward auto check ins and manual check ins. Which is the dog holding your eye contact. Auto is when the dog does it without being prompted, manual is when you ask for it. This will ensure that the dog stays aware of you and is ready to focus on you at any time, no matter what may be going on. It's good practice for when you need to ask them to focus when something may otherwise bother them.


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## lily cd re

No ego here either, and I do agree that there are lots of "trainers" (I like the term back yard trainers) who think they have really great techniques for helping people with their dogs, but who don't really know what they are doing and have no certifications to show their clients. How many dogs and people and family relationships do you think have been further damaged by having the wrong person come to train dogs in people's homes. We also have lots of those trainers around her. That sort of training could be the basis of another thread.

I use a variation of follow the leader to refresh crisp attentive heeling. Old school obedience trainers call it doodling. I do doodling extreme version with lots of rapid direction and pace changes. I include sudden stops near ring gates and very extreme pace changes. I usually do it with the leash balled up in my pants pocket so there is a little tug if Lily doesn't pay attention at the beginning. Good treats are given for nice fast straight sits.


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## Sookster

I hate slip collars being called "choke chains" because if they are being used correctly, they should absolutely not be choking the dog. They are designed to deliver a "harsher" correction than a standard flat collar or a martingale. So thus, they are designed for correction training. That said, when training service and guide dogs, it is an overall rule that puppies younger than 6 months not be put into any sort of collar other than flat because doing so can a) cause them to lose confidence, b) make them leash/handler reactive, and c) since most puppy raisers are not dog trainers, we don't want them damaging a pup's neck by incorrectly using the collar. 

I do use a slip collar on Nova on walks when I'm walking more than 2 dogs simply because she is a small pony and IF she lunged, she would take me off my feet on a flat collar. Now that said, she's very well trained and I don't really think that would ever happen, but I always prefer to err on the side of caution. She does have a tendency to push her boundaries and take every inch she can get, and I can get my point across more easily (and with less correction/tension) with the slip than her flat collar. A slip collar should *never ever ever ever* be allowed to be tight for more than the 1/4 of a second that you are at peak correction when giving a leash correction. It should hang loose like a necklace (and make sure it's on correctly). Of course, there are folks who don't want to use correction at all, and if you are not going to do a leash correction, then you definitely don't need to use a slip collar, because you will end up choking the dog. 

All of that aside, if you decide to go with a slip collar, a neck protector, like those from Poodleit, are designed to be used with a slip collar and protect the neck hair. One of my poodle puppy raisers who ended up needing a slip collar made one for her poodle to keep the collar from breaking off his neck hair and it worked well. I havent seen any such collar that would work with a prong, but I wonder if something could be made that would sit between the collar and the hair, or if that would defeat the purpose all together.


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## msminnamouse

Not to harp on the issue but I remembered a link about this: Avoid Choke Chains at all Costs!

And they're called choke collars because they choke. That's what a collar that constricts the airway does. It doesn't stop squeezing due to a buckle or snap. It keeps going until the neck can't give anymore. That's the very definition of choke. That's how you use it. You snap it and it constricts the throat. Or the dog pulls and their throat is constricted. Some oblivious, over stimulated dogs will pull until they gag and pass out. 

No dog warrants a harsh correction (or any physical or harsh verbal correction could also be argued but not the topic here). I trained my own service dog and help people to train their own service dogs. Not even a precision working dog needs choke collars. I cringe every time I see a service dog being thanked for their efforts by having their neck yanked. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you... Then you see what are supposed to be fully trained service dogs with full public access wearing prong and choke collars. Hmm. Why would a fully trained service dog need to get collar corrections? Things are very different in the UK. Much better standards. Many service dogs and especially guide dogs are trained brutally in the USA.

I mean, really. Service dogs should be treated like appreciated, valued employees who work for incentives like any employee would work for a pay check. Only slaves work to avoid corporal punishment. Because compliance or else isn't much of a decision when you get right down to it.

Be a good employer. Motivate, reward, teach, demote or promote.

Choke - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It's hard to argue with the English language. 

Did I get emotional in this post? Yes. This is point of contention for me. I have a service dog. She's a sentient creature and works her heart out for me. I appreciate her helping me. I wouldn't repay her by treating her unkindly. And she loves her work. I can see it in each bouncy step, each doggy laugh (yes, dogs do laugh. Google for the CD, it's wonderful to play for your dogs), and each silly face she makes. If she's not performing well then I'VE messed up somewhere or she's not feeling well.


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## Oklahoma

*Bad name*

I think the outcry is that they're called "choke chains". The prong collar, to me, is more inhumane as it inflicts pain instead of pressure. But the word "prong" isn't offensive.

I've seen a choke chain put on a 70-year-old dog trainer's neck and yanked. They don't hurt - it's all pressure.

We fostered a young boxer puppy that nothing worked on. He was a great dog, just hyper and didn't know how to behave when meeting new people. The trainer we took him to suggested the choke collar and it worked. But I didn't put it on him until I had one around my own neck and yanked on it to make sure that it wasn't going to painful or inhumane.


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## MaryLynn

Oklahoma, I definitely respect that you have a separate opinion, but the outcry is not against the word choke itself. That would suggest that we're mindlessly fearing something based off of it's name. The thoughts and opinions for or against it have been mindfully thought out.

You could name it the laughing fluffy pink elephant collar, and people who believe in positively training a dog still wouldn't use it. 

I agree with Catherine that all tools have pros, and cons, and associated risks with proper or in-proper use, but there really isn't a reason to use a choke on a puppy. 

There is actually a lot of physical harm that can come from using choke chains, from minor things like hair entanglement/ripping, to major thing like paralysis of the dog.


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## Oklahoma

We'll have to agree to disagree. I've had a choke chain on my neck and had it jerked pretty hard. It's not painful and it doesn't really choke; there's just pressure. As I said, I watched a 70-year-old woman demonstrate it.

I've also used it effectively to get a boisterous large dog into a place where he could be handled by anyone.

All of the things you mentioned can also be caused by collars, prong collars, etc. The choke chain isn't a dangerous device when used properly, anymore than a nylon collar is, so it's unfair to single it out as being especially dangerous. I've seen prong collars open up skin which, to me, is much more of a concern when it comes to the dog's comfort.


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## MaryLynn

To be fair, I'm not into prong collars either. My collar is pretty safe, and it's measurably safer than a prong or a choke. Using a choke of course, is your choice.


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## lily cd re

As I said way back there has to be an agreement to disagree, however I will add that I "demo'd" a pinch collar on myself (on my arm) and I pulled hard. It doesn't hurt, but is annoying. The important thing about using a pinch is not to jerk it. You let the DOG CORRECT ITSELF, so they decide what is the limit of comfort. Both my dogs self correct on pinch collars, but will pull unendingly against an unlimited slip collar (no matter what it is made of). I have never seen a dog hurt when a pinch collar was used properly. But then again the operative point here is "used properly" as it applies to any tool a well informed trainer chooses. Proper use for pinch and slip collars to me means *never* on a puppy or a grown dog for which a flat buckle collar or martingale gives appropriate control.


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## msminnamouse

Cutting off the brain's supply of air is never a good thing for no matter how long you do it, a second or a minute or otherwise. 

If a choke collar is the only way you could manage your foster dog then that's not really speaking well of your abilities or the trainer's. Really, if that's the best they could do then you could have saved your money and come up with the choke collar idea yourself. Maybe you need easier dogs? What if this dog had a collapsible trachea? Would it never have been able to walk on leash??

Dogs don't "correct" themselves. Dogs do what they do and the equipment we put on them has an effect. They are trying to avoid the aversive stimuli unless they're so over stimulated that they don't feel it, or unless they don't understand and keep coming up against it, not knowing how to avoid it. Not really a great way to be training dogs. Using pain and discomfort. And for the record, something doesn't have to cause pain for it to be highly aversive. An example. I have an iron infusion. Jabbing the needle into my vein hurt but didn't bother me so much. What didn't hurt but really did bother me was the rooting around in my vein, trying to find the blood flow. It made me feel sick. I would have rather been stuck over and over in new places than having the needle moving around in the vein.

And you putting a choke or prong collar on your arm (useless since that's not where dogs wear it and the arm is less sensitive than the neck) or even on your neck or another person's neck and jerking is great but how do you know that's what it's like for a dog? A dog is lower to the ground than you are, you're pulling from a sharp upwards angle, and they don't control the power with which you pull it, and pain and discomfort is subjective. What hurts or bothers one person may not hurt or bother the next. And yet again, it's punishing the dog for communicating that they're uncomfortable with a situation (reactive dog on leash), or punishing them for your not training well (not complying when you ask for a cue).

The least intrusive method and tool is always the best. Studies show this to be the case. Force is base. Use your intellect.

And though these are extreme cases, please tell me that the prong collar wasn't painful in these cases:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-hU_WaracA...CDk/wlol0rLKfVk/s1600/prongcollarinjury.2.jpg
http://img.aimoo.com/ForumImages/6b368ae5-9fb5-4752-8d3b-3adb8f89a78d/120510_180552_25478104.jpg
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...p403x403/255107_217065594981095_1654860_n.jpg
You can't see past the hair what they do to the skin, but take a look with no hair: http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/prong-collars


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## thisle

Have you ever tried a halti? Or a "head collar" as they are sometimes called? They are very gentle, don't choke the dog, and correct pulling safely - when used well.


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## lily cd re

I do know a few people who have had very good results with halti head collars. I've never used one myself, but am familiar with them.


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## The Opera Poodle

I was walking my two girls, (a total of 135 lbs of spoo,) when a cat decided to join the party. Shandy had on a choke because the trainers we went through couldn't help with her pulling and chase drive and it was a last resort. Shasta had on a regular flat collar. They whipped me off my feet and drug me a ways. I broke my elbow and my wrist. Shandy was still choking herself when the neighbor came to my aide. 

I had to board both dogs during my initial recovery and then had to hire a dog walker for a couple of months after. But when I boarded them, a wonderful thing happened. The halti (or gentle leader) came into our lives. 
Anytime the dogs would start to pull, the halti would lower their heads taking away the reward of smell, sight, or dominance that they were pulling for to begin with. They both hated the halti at first and would roll on the ground trying to get it off. After taking off a few time to chase another dog or squirrel and ending up yanking themselves around in the process they started to get the idea. After a while I begin to put the halti on without slipping it over their nose unless they started to pull or if we were in a high stimulus environment. After a few months it was funny to watch Shandy react to things use to trigger her chase instinct. She would still bark and get excited, but she would jump straight up and down to avoid her eyes being diverted from her folly. Eventually the haltis were retired due to stellar behavior. The halti saved my sanity and my bones.

As for public reaction - When using the choke on her I would get bunches of "kind souls" telling me how inhuman they were. When using the halti, people at times assumed it was a muzzle and gave me frowns and grief. My calm response was to give the brief story of how many dogs I saw put down for behavior problems when working with a kill shelter. There are a few people out there who throw a choke chain on a dog as a first stab at training, but most have tried, and failed, conventional training first. 

I see both sides of the arguments for and against the use of chokes posted above. And I certainly do not posses any knowledge to argue with either. However, I do believe without a shadow of a doubt that every opinion stated comes from the heart. Only those totally smitten with their babies are going to join a forum like this to share that love. And on that note - I close and go belly rub my favorite ball of fluff.


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## CT Girl

I have seen a head collar used on a Bernese Mountain Dog in my puppy class. The dog is huge and the owner had no control. She tried prong and choke collars at home (they were not allowed in class) to no avail. I am sure she did not use them correctly as she had great difficulty training her dog. Within a relatively short time the dog was walking on a loose lead. I think it is great that someone who does not have good technique is able to use this collar effectively and be able to walk safely with their dog.


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## msminnamouse

Head halters are okay if properly conditioned. But they too can cause injuries if a dog jerks against it hard enough or keeps pulling. The muzzle loop can rub the muzzle raw.

The trainer couldn't get your dog to stop pulling without a choke and it was the last resort? That doesn't sound like a very good trainer. I hope you were cut some kind of break on your bill!

Dogs don't pull due to dominance. Here's a good article to explain what social dominance is and what it isn't. The Dominance Controversy | Philosophy | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS 

The point is, if you (incorrectly) chalk everything up to dominance or submission, you're selling yourself and your dog short and making things difficult on yourself. People get blinded by thinking that their dog is trying to take over and they don't see the real cause of the problem behavior in order to address it. It becomes like throwing a bandaid over a festering wound.


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## msminnamouse

New article on choke collars (and prong collars):

Choke and Prong Collars: Health Concerns Call for Equipment Change in Dog Training | BFTG

A. Steinker and N Tudge Health Concerns Call for Equipment Change in Dog Training. October 2012. First Published in Barks From The Guild – The official publication of The Pet Professional Guild.


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## CT Girl

msminnamouse said:


> Head halters are okay if properly conditioned. But they too can cause injuries if a dog jerks against it hard enough or keeps pulling. The muzzle loop can rub the muzzle raw.


I should have been more complete in my description of the use of the head halter. My instructor made it clear this was a temporary measure to be used with other techniques to stop pulling. She advised using both a head and a buckle collar switching back and forth till the use of a head collar was slowly phased out.


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## outwest

Jazz is now trained to not pull and it is working well. I never did get a choke chain. This is the way I did it:

treat bag, clicker, regular collar. Walked him by himself until he was reliable. 

first- the name game: call his name and everytime he turned his head a click and treat (lots of treats). After a week or so he could be deep into play/roughhousing and I called his name and his head whipped around to look at me.

second- watch me. I trained him to watch my eyes, staring at me for up to a minute. click and treat. 

third- on the leash. If he pulled- name game, watch me. At first, I was calling his name tons of times. As time went on less. Every time he pulled I stopped until he watched me. click, treat and go on. If the leash got taut I stopped walking and he would come back to me. Lots of practice. If he saw something interesting and pulled hard , I turned around and calmly walked the other way (no jerking) so he realized that when he saw something interesting, the best thing was to NOT pull because then he got to watch or see it at least. 

fourth- two dogs (the whippet and jazz). Echo never pulls. When I mastered that

fifth- three dogs. Bonnie pulls sometimes, but now Jazz is trained even better than she is. The moment I call his name he immediately stops, turns and comes back to me!

NO MORE PULLING!

My success was based on The Name Game and Watch Me. The leash training hardly played a roll. The true test was a week or so ago when we were walking and a cat appeared. Jazz started to pull, I called his name- head whipped around and he came back to me. A treat was given. All in the presense of a cat!

Jazz is a gentle dog and pretty easy to train. This may not work for a more bold dog, but it worked for Jazz!


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## LauraRose

Great work! 



Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Indiana

That's awesome, outwest, I'm going to use that method with my two. It's a bit embarrassing that I now own the 2nd smartest dogs of all breeds and they sometimes pull me all over the place, when my pit bull was so easy to train not to pull (and she was probably 2nd to least smart!). But mine don't always pull, for instance never when we're running, just when we're walking or at other occasions for reasons they don't share with me


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## msminnamouse

> I now own the 2nd smartest dogs of all breeds


Nope. THE smartest of all breeds.


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## outwest

Indiana, do the name game and the watch me without walking until they have those two things down. Then add the leash walking. Now I bring the treat bag on the walks. He is really good because you never know when a treat might be forthcoming.  If he is walking nicely I sometimes call him over for a treat telling him what a good boy he is. I was afraid I might train him to pull, stop and come over for a treat if I only gave him one after he had pulled! So, don't forget a treat when they are doing it right.


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## Indiana

Thanks! I will do that. I've been working on recall with them on my holidays, and they're doing really well with it. Also with their cat obsession, and that's coming along too (more slowly). Somehow this very basic walking manners fell through the cracks!


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## msminnamouse

My mini has a collapsable trachea. So if I relied on choke chains to train, would that mean that she'd be untrainable since I can't safely use one on her?


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## MaryLynn

I taught Gryphon to "touch" and since he is going through his teens he has been slightly less leash-reliable, but whenever he looks away and I feel that he is contemplating to dart for something I ask him to touch. He then has to square up with me and touch my hand and then he gets a reward/praise.


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## msminnamouse

I use targeting "touch" to teach heeling. The dogs love it, it becomes such a fun game, whether they get food or not. I've been trying to use games when I train more and it really pays off.


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