# breeding color question?



## riopup (Dec 14, 2009)

My friend in TX is looking for a breeder. She found a litter that is soon to be born, mother red, father brown. She is looking for a red or brown.... I've seen litters that came out colors you might not expect of the parents. She was going to put a deposit down, but I told her to wait and see what we can read up on what the puppies colors might be. I would hate to see her loose a deposit or put on a waiting list to get the puppy she is looking for. 

Anyone know anything about this?? Or where we could look up such info?? Any good breeders I could point her to in TX?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

riopup said:


> My friend in TX is looking for a breeder. She found a litter that is soon to be born, mother red, father brown. She is looking for a red or brown.... I've seen litters that came out colors you might not expect of the parents. She was going to put a deposit down, but I told her to wait and see what we can read up on what the puppies colors might be. I would hate to see her loose a deposit or put on a waiting list to get the puppy she is looking for.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?? Or where we could look up such info?? Any good breeders I could point her to in TX?


First of all I suggest you friend hold onto her money and find another breeder. 
Breeding reds to browns is a BIG NO NO. The pups can have liver noses which is not desired in reds. If she wants a good brown there are many good breeders who breed them unlike the reds. 

I live in Ca and can only suggest CA breeders if your friend does not mind shipping. 

We have members on this forum who live in TX and maybe they can chime in on good poodle breeders in TX


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah.. like Roxy said that's NOT a good combination at all, no experienced breeder would mix those colors together. The pigment is completely wrong. If she's looking for either of those colors, tell her to find lines that breed both of those lines to blacks only.

Or at least from what I've read on here.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I could list several good resources and breeders in TX, but I can't think of a single one that has reds. I was never interested in reds, so I never looked. I list a few links below. I don't know how breeders usually do it, but I would be hesitant to put down a deposit before the pups are born and my breeder doesn't take deposits until then. She put me on the waiting list though. What if she puts down a deposit and none are red? What if there are 5 pups and she's 7 on the list? If the breeder is in a hurry to get a deposit, then I would find another breeder.

This is a good site, but I don't see any red breeders in TX:
http://poodlesonline.com/red/redstandardpoodlebreeders.html

A few Poodle clubs in TX:
http://www.bluebonnetpoodleclubofhouston.org/
http://www.lspc.org/
http://www.thepoodleclubofsanantonio.com/ 

These are all listed on the Poodle Club of America's website and I would check out of state too, if I were you/her. TX is so big, sometimes it's easier to go out of state. My breeder is in OK for example and I'm closer to NM than most of the bigger cities in TX.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

riopup said:


> My friend in TX is looking for a breeder. She found a litter that is soon to be born, mother red, father brown. She is looking for a red or brown.... I've seen litters that came out colors you might not expect of the parents. She was going to put a deposit down, but I told her to wait and see what we can read up on what the puppies colors might be. I would hate to see her loose a deposit or put on a waiting list to get the puppy she is looking for.
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?? Or where we could look up such info?? Any good breeders I could point her to in TX?


Breeding red to brown is not a good idea. The noses, eye rims and lips might turn out a brown color Sometimes the noses are pink . The eye color can be yellow as well. Tell her to keep looking....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Totally agree with everyone here. When we red breeders are researching for potential mates for our breeding dogs, it is preferable to have NO brown in their pedigree AT ALL. You can get the lighter noses and the amber or green eyes, which, while fine on a brown look wretched on a red. I would say the fact that they bred these two colours together shows how little they know about breeding.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> First of all I suggest you friend hold onto her money and find another breeder.
> Breeding reds to browns is a BIG NO NO. The pups can have liver noses which is not desired in reds. If she wants a good brown there are many good breeders who breed them unlike the reds.
> 
> I live in Ca and can only suggest CA breeders if your friend does not mind shipping.
> ...


((((( It is so sad that you say this. There are some red breeders who are trying to do things right!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ((((( It is so sad that you say this. There are some red breeders who are trying to do things right!


Yes very few. I would say over 95% of red breeders are just breeding for color and $$$$ ( I spoke with many and some seem to have few missing screws as well lol ) 

And you should know by now I am not talking about you


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> Yes very few. I would say over 95% of red breeders are just breeding for color and $$$$ ( I spoke with many and some seem to have few missing screws as well lol )
> 
> And you should know by now I am not talking about you


I actually take it back its probably more like 97% of red breeders are breeding for the wrong reasons. i can only count like 5-7 breeders who are trying to improve the color lol


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

This is something similar to what you could get. Although Olie is apricot and maybe not be preferred on the nose color but on apricot is acceptable in showing (but wouldn't likely go far in showinghwell If for a pet - and its not expensive it's something to consider - BUT I am guessing if a deposits being asked, they are charging a higher price... and in it for the wrong reasons.  I guess with that combo it's like a box of chocolates!!

Either way here's Olie. And my BF got Olie and the more I ask about the history of parents the less info I get.......had he known a little more but..... so good thinking on encouraging to look around. 

Also it's the nose, mouth and even feet that are light colored.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Olie said:


> This is something similar to what you could get. Although Olie is apricot and maybe not be preferred on the nose color but on apricot is acceptable in showing (but wouldn't likely go far in showinghwell If for a pet - and its not expensive it's something to consider - BUT I am guessing if a deposits being asked, they are charging a higher price... and in it for the wrong reasons.  I guess with that combo it's like a box of chocolates!!
> 
> Either way here's Olie. And my BF got Olie and the more I ask about the history of parents the less info I get.......had he known a little more but..... so good thinking on encouraging to look around.
> 
> ...


Yeah they would be just dark red with liver , do you know what color Olie's parents are ? 

o I am going to pm you


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I much prefer the black points even on an Apricot. We color test every one of our dogs . That is the first thing I test for ...


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yeah they would be just dark red with liver , do you know what color Olie's parents are ?
> 
> o I am going to pm you


Wish I knew, I wasnt with him when he got him.....But his nose is so light colored....we call it a pig nose but in the cutest loving way I have his papers and I am going to take it upon myself to find out just because I am intrigued now.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> I much prefer the black points even on an Apricot. We color test every one of our dogs . That is the first thing I test for ...


IMO I would test for some health issue first before color test. IMO the color test thing is a waste of money.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Olie said:


> Wish I knew, I wasnt with him when he got him.....But his nose is so light colored....we call it a pig nose but in the cutest loving way I have his papers and I am going to take it upon myself to find out just because I am intrigued now.


 Cool I would like to know what colors are in his back ground just for knowledge.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I agree that Red to Brown is a no no. If you are interested in a Red, there are good red breeders to be found. Some of which are on this forum. Color testing like health testing is a tool that should be used along with knowing your pedigree to produce better dogs. Any color can be exploited for money. If you do decide you want a Red you may just have to travel to get the dog of your dreams, but good red breeders are out there.


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## riopup (Dec 14, 2009)

Wow, thanks everyone... I'm going to fwd this thread to her, sounds like the breeder doesn't really know what she's doing!! I think there were several other things that she was thinking may be signs that this was not a breeder she wanted to go with, so don't think she's interested anymore... but for future breeder hunting this will help!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

You are welcome .. :0)


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Cool I would like to know what colors are in his back ground just for knowledge.


I was just wondering how accurate the colors on poodle registrations would be? The only reason I am wondering this is because for an uneducated person it would be very easy for them to mis-register say a blue pupy as a black. Cash was sold as a black. His mother was a beautiful silver color, and is registered as blue (I believe). I believe that he is/will be blue... or maybe just a bad black? If I had registered him as soon as we got him, before I found this forum and began learning, I might have registered him as black. 

I wouldn't think this would be an issue much with reputable breeders, but since so many are not...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

This is the reason for the color test that is a really good questions.
Back in the early 80's the red color was not recognized so alot of Apricots could very well have been reds. So the genetic test is a really important if there is a question , or if there are any browns and blacks in the pedigree..
Alot of blacks carry for brown as well. So the color test would be of the utmost importance for me anyway..As Gingersnap stated it is one of many genetic tools avaialbe to us in todays world. 
Keep on learnin I say !!!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> This is the reason for the color test that is a really good questions.
> Back in the early 80's the red color was not recognized so alot of Apricots could very well have been reds. So the genetic test is a really important if there is a question , or if there are any browns and blacks in the pedigree..
> Alot of blacks carry for brown as well. So the color test would be of the utmost importance for me anyway..As Gingersnap stated it is one of many genetic tools avaialbe to us in todays world.
> Keep on learnin I say !!!


The allele for red, apricot, white, and cream. Is the same so you still will not be able to tell what color the dog has in the background on these tests. 

If you have palmares and Majestic lines they most likey have no blacks. I guess I like to save money and just look at the pedigrees. This is why I think it's a waste since the info is right on the pedigree. 

I understand why the black poodle breeders do it because they want to breed blacks that dont carry brown or dilute gene. I think colored breeders are confused with the dilute gene and are calling it the fading gene. Vetgen stated they have not found a fading gene in dogs.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cash said:


> I was just wondering how accurate the colors on poodle registrations would be? The only reason I am wondering this is because for an uneducated person it would be very easy for them to mis-register say a blue pupy as a black. Cash was sold as a black. His mother was a beautiful silver color, and is registered as blue (I believe). I believe that he is/will be blue... or maybe just a bad black? If I had registered him as soon as we got him, before I found this forum and began learning, I might have registered him as black.
> 
> I wouldn't think this would be an issue much with reputable breeders, but since so many are not...


usually a reputable breeder can tell which dogs are black and blue.

Im not familar with how puppy papers go. Since we did not get Enzo from a great breeder I can't tell you how it works. 

With my cats I would register the whole litter and fill in the colors then when the slips came I handed them to the owners and they made their name with the suffix of our cattery ( which was already printed on the slips). I thought reputable dog breeders do the same thing and if so the colors should be marked already. 

Can someone chime in on this please ?


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> The allele for red, apricot, white, and cream. Is the same so you still will not be able to tell what color the dog has in the background on these tests.
> 
> If you have palmares and Majestic lines they most likey have no blacks. I guess I like to save money and just look at the pedigrees. This is why I think it's a waste since the info is right on the pedigree.
> 
> I understand why the black poodle breeders do it because they want to breed blacks that dont carry brown or dilute gene. I think colored breeders are confused with the dilute gene and are calling it the fading gene. Vetgen stated they have not found a fading gene in dogs.


You are right in that the delute gene may not be the only fading gene. The silvering gene is also responsible and as of now there is no test for that, that is where knowing your pedigree is important.

However just because your red dog may come from palmares or majestic lines does not mean there are no blacks in the pedigree. A lot of red breeders regularly add a black back in, and you cannot be sure a black does not carry for brown points with out color testing. Some blacks that have visually black points color test Bb which means they carry for brown points and if bred to a red with black points that also carries for brown, ie Bb as apposed to BB, they could produce a red with brown points. So it is important to know the pedigree but having the DNA test to see what your dog carries is also an important tool. Just as you would not want to breed a dog that carries for vWd bred to another dog that carries for the same problem.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

This is true in Palmares, and alot of the Palmares dogs have brownish looking points.. But Majestic there are blacks in the majestic pedigrees..But not many ....
Found this article http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html take alook ....
Yes the latest fad was the fading factor and I agree that it is not what it is cracked up to be. But I still will do the color test as I am looking to avoid brown, and want to breed only for the dark black points.. Dont like liver noses  Just a personal taste thing nothing agianst anyones dogs of course . Variety is what makes the world go round .... . Not necesarily just looking for the red allele, that is not the only reason for the genetic test......That would take a good study of the pedigree and getting your hands on pictures. 
No genetic test is a waste of money, it is a look inside at what you are doing IMHO...
I want to be fully informed ...
So you do realize that the blacks can carry for brown and creme , that is scary stuff if you are breeding reds.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> However just because your red dog may come from palmares or majestic lines does not mean there are no blacks in the pedigree. A lot of red breeders regularly add a black back in, and you cannot be sure a black does not carry for brown points with out color testing. Some blacks that have visually black points color test Bb which means they carry for brown points and if bred to a red with black points that also carries for brown, ie Bb as apposed to BB, they could produce a red with brown points. So it is important to know the pedigree but having the DNA test to see what your dog carries is also an important tool. Just as you would not want to breed a dog that carries for vWd bred to another dog that carries for the same problem.


I have not seen any red breeders today adding blacks in the pedigree ( reputable breeders I should say Not yet anyways  If you are looking at peds and you see a black like in the 7th 8th generation even the 6th Its just info at that point. 

I would be worried if the dog had immediate brown in the 5 generation pedigree. But anything passed that its really bred out IMO. 

Enzo has silvers and blues in his pedigree but like way way back in his pedigree. I am sure he wont have silver pups lol 

The BB test is the only one I would use if you did not look up info in the pedigrees. 



> So you do realize that the blacks can carry for brown and creme , that is scary stuff if you are breeding reds.


If you are just breeding for color i can see why this is scary stuff,But if you are a breeder looking to breed the total package Im sorry color ,will take a back seat for me. One liver nose puppy is not going to destroy your breeding program .You don't have to keep that pup and cull ( not kill) if from your breding program. 

With my cats Lynx point is HIGHLY desired but I was not going to sit there and breed what the public would buy or want. I breed for myself and to better the breed. 

We will just have to agree to disagree I will keep my $$$ in my wallet


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Of course breeding to better the breed is what is most important, Health test are first as is conformation and temperment, but if the reds are to continue and be successful in the ring than there have to be devotes who are willing to take up the challenge to breed reds that can compete with the best. That is not breeding for bucks, that is breeding for the betterment of the breed. There is a difference. I am sure byb won't be bothered with health testing nevermind color testing. And with such a small gene pool it is important to see what your dog carries. again for your information and as a tool, not as a way to breed for what the public will buy. 
t


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

There are devotes to all colors. Great Silvers, Browns, Apricots etc... didn't just happen they are the product of devotes studying pedigrees and planning litters to make the most beautiful dog in the color they love. If it didn't matter than why not breed a brown to a white. A white with a pink nose wouldn't win in the ring. Same for Reds


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

That is so true Gingersnap ! I could not have said it better...
Do one thing and do it well.....Not for money . For the love of the breed..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> Of course breeding to better the breed is what is most important, Health test are first as is conformation and temperment, but if the reds are to continue and be successful in the ring than there have to be devotes who are willing to take up the challenge to breed reds that can compete with the best. That is not breeding for bucks, that is breeding for the betterment of the breed. There is a difference. I am sure byb won't be bothered with health testing nevermind color testing. And with such a small gene pool it is important to see what your dog carries. again for your information and as a tool, not as a way to breed for what the public will buy.
> t


your preaching to the choir. You just have to realize there are a bunch or red breeders are not doing this. Some say they are but they are really not.

You can breed reds to reds to your face turns blue and this will not improve the quality as in conformation. I have seen breeders who have been breeding reds for years and they still do not have AKC quality dogs imo. This is why I beleive so many say reds are hard to show but in reality they don't have good enough dogs to win. Black and whites have been bred for show for years and years reds are barely catching up. ( i dunno if i can even say catching up at his point) there are only 4-5 red standard AKC champion in the entire USA. more than half of them are not even red............:fish:

I only know two breeders with reds who are *ACTIVELY* showing exclusively AKC. i wont get into the whole UKC vs AKC thing again you can do a search about that lol.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> There are devotes to all colors. Great Silvers, Browns, Apricots etc... didn't just happen they are the product of devotes studying pedigrees and planning litters to make the most beautiful dog in the color they love. If it didn't matter than why not breed a brown to a white. A white with a pink nose wouldn't win in the ring. Same for Reds


You can devote to a color and breed a total dog. what I am saying is IMO i still don't see it with the majority of red breeders. And I know I am not the only one that thinks this way ( when i tell breeders at shows we have a red we are showing they look at us if as we where aliens lol)

Blacks are the only color you can breed to reds , but no one is doing it and actually breeding AKC quality show dogs who win


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Roxy I really think you've hit the nail on the head several times. Yes it's important to continue and improve the reds, but if color is the number one priority, that won't happen. 

Rio, your friend needs to see proof of everything and not just take the breeders word for it. If someone says they health test ask for proof or look it up on offa.org. Prelims aren't enough. If someone says they show, ask in what venue and how many dogs they've titled. Ask for the names of those specific dogs so you can check it out. Many breeders say they show or their dogs come from champion lines and then you find out the CH is five generations back or they go to one UKC show every other year. That's not enough for someone to claim to be a show breeder.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Not Yet maybe, but with commited breeders and people who are willing to put there reds out there down the line it will not be uncommon to see good reds in the ring. I just don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> Not Yet maybe, but with commited breeders and people who are willing to put there reds out there down the line it will not be uncommon to see good reds in the ring. I just don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water


I sure hope so Ginger ! I get happy when Suzie's dog Raquel is at the same shows with Enzo at least the judges will see 2 reds in one day !

Its STILL uncommon to see apricots in the ring also. I have seen more reds in CA shows than apricots and I think that is really weird.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I think it'll happen but red breeders need to look at the overall picture and stop using prejudice as an excuse to not show at all.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I think it'll happen but red breeders need to look at the overall picture and stop using prejudice as an excuse to not show at all.


Maybe so


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think the ONLY way we are going to see top notch reds in the ring is by bringing black into our breeding programs. 

I have heard from a good number of breeders that the colour test is a total waste effort and money. You get breeders now telling people their pups won't fade. What a pile of BS!!! You may find out your dog doesn't carry this or carry tha, and you may be told it does not carry the dilute gene, but there is no test available for the fading factor or the silvering gene or graying gene. I was told this by the lab itself.

If a breeder breeds thier red to a brown, they obviously have no idea what they are doing. My matriarch was owed by someone else before she became mine. They bred her to their brown boy to "infuse a richness into the red". OKay then!! She had ten black puppies, who are likely not very good examples of black, and I know that some of THEIR offspring have liver noses.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Yes. Cross breeding between colors is NOT like mixing paint. Breeding a Red to a Brown will NOT make your red richer.

Yes. The best way to bring quality to Reds is to breed to a high quality, inky Blacks (this is my plan with my Browns too). The problem Red breeders are going to have is that owners of high quality Black stud dogs are not going to want to breed to low quality, un-finished bitches.

Red breeders are going to have to go out there and finish some dogs if they want to be taken seriously.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Maybe buy a nice quality black from a very reputable breeder, finish him and use him for stud (with permission from the original breeder obviously) with decent red bitches.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think the ONLY way we are going to see top notch reds in the ring is by bringing black into our breeding programs.
> 
> I have heard from a good number of breeders that the colour test is a total waste effort and money. You get breeders now telling people their pups won't fade. What a pile of BS!!! You may find out your dog doesn't carry this or carry tha, and you may be told it does not carry the dilute gene, but there is no test available for the fading factor or the silvering gene or graying gene. I was told this by the lab itself.





> Yes. The best way to bring quality to Reds is to breed to a high quality, inky Blacks (this is my plan with my Browns too). The problem Red breeders are going to have is that owners of high quality Black stud dogs are not going to want to breed to low quality, un-finished bitches.
> 
> Red breeders are going to have to go out there and finish some dogs if they want to be taken seriously.


I agree ! Enzo has a bunch of black dogs in his pedigree , and I honestly believe this is the reason why Enzo looks good enough to finish AKC. Of course he has his faults but we had handlers and breeders tell us he should finish.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

My first toy was black... his sire was red,(his grandsire was red, his grand dam was black) his dam was white (grandsire was black, grand dam was white)..... no telling what you're going to get. It depends a lot, I think, on what's in the family tree.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Time will certainly tell . Majestic has AKC champions as does Farley D and Lido all are showing and finishing reds . So the statement that no one is showing and finishing AKC is incorrect. How do you suppose the back color and confomations was developed ? Breeding like to like thats how...IMHO


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Mehpenn said:


> My first toy was black... his sire was red,(his grandsire was red, his grand dam was black) his dam was white (grandsire was black, grand dam was white)..... no telling what you're going to get. It depends a lot, I think, on what's in the family tree.


White in the first three or four generations isn't desirable in reds either. Cream seems to work better, but white is a big no-no!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> I only know two breeders with reds who are *ACTIVELY* showing exclusively AKC. i wont get into the whole UKC vs AKC thing again you can do a search about that lol.





> Time will certainly tell . Majestic has AKC champions as does Farley D and Lido all are showing and finishing reds . So the statement that no one is showing and finishing AKC is incorrect.


those are the breeders I was talking about 

Terry Has bred in white dogs into his program and this is why his dogs look the way they do ( good lol ). They are shown and finish and are to akc standard  Lidos uses a lot of terrys dogs in her program as well so this explains why they have good looking dogs too.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have always read and heard that having whites in a pedigree can result in a lot of mismarked puppies. And I would think it would also cause a dilute effect.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

White should be avoided that is correct. As should silver and blue...So color testing is a must if you plan to use a black in your program..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have always read and heard that having whites in a pedigree can result in a lot of mismarked puppies. And I would think it would also cause a dilute effect.


I am not sure about mismarkings but Terrys dogs are solid with no white patches. The white dogs have lighten up the colors of his dogs. This is why I said Blacks are the only way to go if you want to keep the color dark. Inky blacks that don't fade and have only white or cream in the back ground. Or a dog with just all black would be better. 

What happens when you breed a black dog who has cream and white in the background and you breed it to a red is black pups and cream pups. You would have to take the best puppy out of the litter and breed back to a red to get the color back. IMo to get the quality you want color should not matter. In time you will get nice reds !


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Now I have always heard blue is desirable to breed back into red. Definately not silver, because of the dilute factor again, but blue is supposed to be a wonderful addition.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Now I have always heard blue is desirable to breed back into red. Definately not silver, because of the dilute factor again, but blue is supposed to be a wonderful addition.


I heard that blue is supposed to carry many colors like red but who knows. I would only stick to blacks that don't have brown in the pedigree.


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## riopup (Dec 14, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have always read and heard that having whites in a pedigree can result in a lot of mismarked puppies. And I would think it would also cause a dilute effect.


would a red with a white mismark = fading gene?? Ours is a red (I think) and has a white patch on his chest. I was able to meet the mom and dad and they were both around 4 and very faded, so I'm guessing this means ours will too... but curious.


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