# Bloat history in pedigree



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Here is an interesting article about bloat:

What Promotes Canine Bloat? - Whole Dog Journal Article

The whole article is worth reading. Here is one short paragraph that addresses the questions that you raise:

"Another key risk factor is having a close relative that has experienced GDV. According to one of the Purdue studies that focused on nondietary risk factors for GDV, there is a 63 percent increase in risk associated with having a first degree relative (sibling, parent, or offspring) who experienced bloat."


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not think the experts have a clue yet what causes bloat. They are trying, but so far, it seems we get new information all the time that contradicts the info we have already been told. We know there are breeds predisposed to it, simply because of the way they are built. So all we can do is take every precaution to avoid it- slower eating, no romping after meals, no elevated dishes...and if you are not breeding a dog, have it's stomach tacked when you get the spay/neuter done. Believe me...after seeing my Mom's boy die of bloat, we recommend prophylactic gastropexy to all of our puppy buyers. It is the most horrific thing I have ever seen!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not think the experts have a clue yet what causes bloat...........and if you are not breeding a dog, have it's stomach tacked when you get the spay/neuter done. Believe me...after seeing my Mom's boy die of bloat, we recommend prophylactic gastropexy to all of our puppy buyers. It is the most horrific thing I have ever seen!


Excellent points, Cherie. All valid.

The only sure indicator of a potential for bloat is a deep chest. And all the deep chested breeds can be vulnerable.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not think the experts have a clue yet what causes bloat. They are trying, but so far, it seems we get new information all the time that contradicts the info we have already been told. We know there are breeds predisposed to it, simply because of the way they are built. So all we can do is take every precaution to avoid it- slower eating, no romping after meals, *no elevated dishes*...and if you are not breeding a dog, have it's stomach tacked when you get the spay/neuter done. Believe me...after seeing my Mom's boy die of bloat, we recommend prophylactic gastropexy to all of our puppy buyers. It is the most horrific thing I have ever seen!


What connection to bloat do elevated dishes have?


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## SAS (Jun 16, 2013)

PoodleRick said:


> What connection to bloat do elevated dishes have?


They used to say elevated dishes were good but now they think they contribute to bloat.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

And that is what I meant by, we hear things now that are contradictory to what we have been told in the past. And that is why my suggestion is do all you can to prevent it, because in my humble opinion, every Standard Poodle is vulnerable.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Have you seen the sticky in the health section: Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (BLOAT)? Lots of good information there.

It's probably difficult to find a dog without bloat somewhere in the pedigree and impossible to find one without some health issue somewhere. As Peppersb said, the closer the relative, the greater the chance. But still, there's always some chance simply because of the way spoos are built.

My Katie has bloat somewhere in her background (some distant aunt or uncle or something). We opted for a prophylactic gastropexy at the same time as her spay. She could still bloat (have her stomach fill with gas), but the odds of her stomach twisting are reduced. I figure it can buy time to get to an E-vet.

Your breeder should be honest about any health issues in the lines. I've read something to the effect that if a breeder says there are no health concerns in the lines, they are either lying or naive.


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## SAS (Jun 16, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Have you seen the sticky in the health section: Gastric Dilatation-Volvulus (BLOAT)? Lots of good information there.
> 
> It's probably difficult to find a dog without bloat somewhere in the pedigree and impossible to find one without some health issue somewhere. As Peppersb said, the closer the relative, the greater the chance. But still, there's always some chance simply because of the way spoos are built.
> 
> ...


I have wondered if the gastropexy ever has any unintended consequences such as excessive scar tissue or discomfort to the dog. Does your Katie show any signs of awareness of the tacking or have you ever heard of dogs who did?

Also, are spoos and other deep chested dogs more susceptible to bloat or just to the stomach twisting than other dogs? I have never been clear on that.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

SAS said:


> I have wondered if the gastropexy ever has any unintended consequences such as excessive scar tissue or discomfort to the dog. Does your Katie show any signs of awareness of the tacking or have you ever heard of dogs who did?


Katie doesn't seem to notice any difference, at least not that I can tell. I asked the person who recommended the gastropexy, Katie's breeder, and the vet who did the surgery about side effects and they said there really weren't any other than the risk of the surgery itself. And, as I said, it makes twisting less likely, but it's still possible, so it's not a free-pass, so to speak.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cookieface said:


> Katie doesn't seem to notice any difference, at least not that I can tell. I asked the person who recommended the gastropexy, Katie's breeder, and the vet who did the surgery about side effects and they said there really weren't any other than the risk of the surgery itself. And, as I said, it makes twisting less likely, but it's still possible, so it's not a free-pass, so to speak.


But if it helps at all, it has to be a good thing!


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## Kaybeegenie (Sep 26, 2008)

I just got my spoo home last night!! I am completely paranoid about bloat. Her breeder told me that she has never heard of one of her pups bloating, and she has not seen it in her house. She recommended soaking the food and feeding in elevated dishes. It looks like the latter is now thought to be a bad plan. Thankfully, I haven't found an elevated set that I like yet. So, what about soaking the food? Apparently, I have had other breeds that are known to be susceptible...never had a problem with a few boxers that I had.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Kaybeegenie said:


> I just got my spoo home last night!! I am completely paranoid about bloat. Her breeder told me that she has never heard of one of her pups bloating, and she has not seen it in her house. She recommended soaking the food and feeding in elevated dishes. It looks like the latter is now thought to be a bad plan. Thankfully, I haven't found an elevated set that I like yet. *So, what about soaking the food?* Apparently, I have had other breeds that are known to be susceptible...never had a problem with a few boxers that I had.


Here is a paragraph from the link peppersb provided.



> The ingredients of a dog’s diet also appear to factor into susceptibility to bloat. A Purdue study examined the diets of over 300 dogs, 106 of whom had bloated. This study found that dogs fed a dry food that included a fat source in the first four ingredients were 170 percent more likely to bloat than dogs who were fed food without fat in the first four ingredients. *In addition, the risk of GDV increased 320 percent in dogs fed dry foods that contained citric acid and were moistened before feeding*. On the other hand, a rendered meat meal that included bone among the first four ingredients lowered risk by 53 percent.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Kaybeegenie said:


> I just got my spoo home last night!! I am completely paranoid about bloat.


If it helps, the symptoms of 'simple' bloat or bloat with torsion are unmistakable. Even a child could easily see that 'there's something wrong with the dog'. It won't sneak up on u...

Also, it's not that quick... not like the only other thing that will kill a dog within a short time... poison. U will have at least 36 hours from the onset of any subtle symptoms 'til it's 'too late'.

Ten hours before surgery can still be successful your dogs belly will look like a football. The symptoms are very obvious. And obvious while there still time to do something abt it.

I would not worry 'til spaying, get the stomach tacked at the same time, and u can be worry free.

Hope this helps, anyway...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It can be quick. Henry had torsion with no signs of abdominal distension. It happened very quickly and the time frame of when it possibly began is only within an hour or so. Bloat with torsion is extremely time critical and 36 hours can kill the dog in the most painful way imaginable. We knew enough about torsion to suspect it, but even the vet tried to say he was not having "bloat" due to his stoic nature and due to the fact that he was not bloated visually and did not feel bloated upon exam. It's very important to be aware of the different ways that bloat can present itself. Thankfully we caught it in time for Henry, but we were very lucky as if we had waited any longer there could have been severe, irreplaceable damage to his organs. When this occurs, the dog may not survive in the days following the emergency surgery that has been performed.

DO NOT rely on a bloated abdomen to indicate bloat with torsion. DO NOT ever think that it is okay to wait any amount of time if bloat is suspected.


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

A few months ago a friend's labradoodle died of bloat. They had taken her to the vet, but sadly, the vet sent her home, telling them she was just constipated. Both labs and poodles are prone to bloat, so I don't understand how the vet missed it! The labradoodle was a rescue, so obviously they don't know if it there's a family history of it. I guess the moral is that owners need to know the signs of bloat, and be prepared to make certain their vet checks for it properly if symptoms do occur.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Cailin77 said:


> A few months ago a friend's labradoodle died of bloat. They had taken her to the vet, but sadly, the vet sent her home, telling them she was just constipated. Both labs and poodles are prone to bloat, so I don't understand how the vet missed it! The labradoodle was a rescue, so obviously they don't know if it there's a family history of it. I guess the moral is that owners need to know the signs of bloat, and be prepared to make certain their vet checks for it properly if symptoms do occur.


Yes. Always insist on an _x-ray._


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

When my first spoo bloated (with torsion) I could tell immediately what the problem was. We were at the cabin 3 hours from home and 1 1/2 hrs from the nearest emergency clinic. I Phoned my vet and he told me I had 2 hours to get him help. He claimed that after 2 hours the dog can go into shock and organs can be affected. We got him to the clinic in just over an hour. It had been nearly 2 hours since onset. We were told by the vet there he had a 30% chance of surviving without heart and organ complications. They actually used his xrays and scans in a case study, he was so bad. He ended up surviving with minimal damage, but they attributed it to his young age and great health. So I agree with CM, 36 hours will most likely kill your dog. The signs are unmistakeable if you know them!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I just wouldn't count on the signs being unmistakeable. You'll know something is wrong, and hopefully suspect bloat, but I hesitate to say unmistakeable...


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Cailin77 said:


> A few months ago a friend's labradoodle died of bloat. They had taken her to the vet, but sadly, the vet sent her home, telling them she was just constipated. Both labs and poodles are prone to bloat, so I don't understand how the vet missed it! The labradoodle was a rescue, so obviously they don't know if it there's a family history of it. I guess the moral is that owners need to know the signs of bloat, and be prepared to make certain their vet checks for it properly if symptoms do occur.


When I called my vet at first he said not to worry, just force some gasx down him and wait. I fortunately didn't listen to him and found a 24 hour emergency clinic. Before I could leave the house, my vet called back, apologized and told me he agreed with me, and said "You have 2 to 2 1/2 hours to get him treated" As the owner of a dog that is prone to bloat it's up to us to know the signs.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> If it helps, the symptoms of 'simple' bloat or bloat with torsion are unmistakable. Even a child could easily see that 'there's something wrong with the dog'. It won't sneak up on u...
> 
> Also, it's not that quick... not like the only other thing that will kill a dog within a short time... poison. U will have at least 36 hours from the onset of any subtle symptoms 'til it's 'too late'.
> 
> ...


Country Boy, I agree with almost everything you say on PF, but this time I gotta disagree. 

The link that I gave at the beginning of this thread tells the story of a great dane that was rushed to the vet hospital, got there in 7 minutes, and it was too late. The dog had to be euthanized. I've always heard that you have about an hour, but I guess it can be more or less. But 36 hours? I don't think so. Bloat is a condition that can be extremely painful for the dog and the dog should be taken to the vet hospital IMMEDIATELY. Every minute improves the chances that the dog's life can be saved, and every minute gets the dog closer to relief from the incredible pain of bloat.

Every spoo owner should know about the symptoms of bloat, know how to get to the nearest 24 hour vet hospital, and have the phone number of the nearest 24 hour vet hospital easily available at all times so you can tell them that you are on your way. Also, it is a good idea to think through how much you would spend to save your dog's life. If your dog bloats, you might be faced with the hard choice between humane euthanasia and expensive surgery, often with uncertain outcome. Best to think through these issues before they come up.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I suppose I should point out that I was replying to *one* particular sentence in the newer member's post. And from personal experience. 

I do appreciate where y'all are comin' from. And we've all had our say.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It's just that it's very, very dangerous to suggest that someone has 36 hours from the onset of subtle bloat symptoms.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

peppersb said:


> If your dog bloats, you might be faced with the hard choice between humane euthanasia and expensive surgery, often with uncertain outcome. Best to think through these issues before they come up.


$3600.00 for our experience with bloat. Combined with grooming, regular vet visits and the fact that this particular dog was a thief and ended up in hospital for gastritis so many times we lost count he was known as the $1000,00 dog in his short nearly 6 years with us. So when someone says they love my dog and are contemplating getting one .... sometimes I am very :afraid: especially when they can barely afford their rent.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It's just that it's very, very dangerous to suggest that someone has 36 hours from the onset of subtle bloat symptoms.


I dunno, CM... what would u suggest I do? Lie to a new member on account of u feel it's 'dangerous' to tell the truth. 

Sorry, hon... can't do that. 'Specially when I'm tryin' to reassure someone.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> I dunno, CM... what would u suggest I do? Lie to a new member on account of u feel it's 'dangerous' to tell the truth.
> 
> Sorry, hon... can't do that. 'Specially when I'm tryin' to reassure someone.


Where are you getting this "truth" that you have 36 hours from the onset of bloat symptoms? It's completely false and dangerous.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> And from personal experience.


Tho I think that both sides have now been presented. Future readers now have more to digest... more to consider... so that they can make up their own minds.

My point is simply that panic is not helpful. Phone your vet, get their suggestions, override them if u feel it's necessary, but don't leave yr kids behind in a dash off to the nearest emergency vet. 

Take yr time, think abt it... and do the best thing u think possible.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

There are no two sides to this story. It is a medical fact that torsion can and does kill extremely quickly. You may have a few hours from the time it occurs, you may have less than one hour. 

GDV is called the mother of all emergencies for good reason. When torsion is involved, NO VET would say that you have 36 hours.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Sorry CB ... when it comes to bloat I would err on the side of caution. From personal experience. And I would strongly recommend all Spoo owners do as well  Pack up the kids and run! It's better than watching your dog die a very painful death!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

One minute _*can*_ change everything. *Forever*. Use your minutes wisely!


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## SAS (Jun 16, 2013)

Does anyone know if there is any literature to the effect that smaller standards bloat less often than bigger(taller) ones?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I don't know of any literature that's conclusive. There's very little abt bloat that is.

But it is intuitive that a deeper chested *larger* dog would be more prone to torsion/rotation at least.

There's sumthin' interesting, maybe the latest facts on bloat, comin' up in a Webinar later this month.

https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/8271594440936679680


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think "bloat" history is a bit wrapped anyway. Plenty of Spoo owners tack the stomachs when they are Spayed/Neutered so no one will ever have that data if that particular Poodle or line would bloat. The data is null/void. We can only pull info from those Poodle owners that have not had that procedure done. I have a Small Spoo that is 22" & 38lbs & he has NOT bloated as of yet. He does race around before & after dinner. I have no lineage on him since he is a Rescue. My friends Spoo is a female about 24-25" & 55lbs & has bloated 2x, now the stomach is tacked. Her Poodle is from MurMaid(sp?) kennels in New England.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> I don't know of any literature that's conclusive. There's very little abt bloat that is.
> 
> But it is intuitive that a deeper chested *larger* dog would be more prone to torsion/rotation at least.
> 
> ...


Countryboy: Thanks for recommending this seminar. I signed up for it, but could not attend due to computer problems (Windows 8 woes). Fortunately the seminar is available on line here: 

WEBINAR: Understanding the Twists and Turns of Bloat (in Dogs) - YouTube

The discussion is pretty technical. Basically the focus was on how the vets can improve treatment of dogs that are bloating. Questions at the end brought out a recommendation for the gastroplexy. Interestingly, the researcher does not think that what or how you feed and/or exercise your dog makes much difference.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

peppersb said:


> Interestingly, the researcher does not think that what or how you feed and/or exercise your dog makes much difference.


Thanx for the better link. 

I kind of agree with the researcher. Simply 'cos I think that feeding method and various forms of exercise get lost in all the other guesses as to the cause of bloat. Tho I suppose if a dog never, ever moves there would be very little danger of torsion, eh?


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## frecklesdmk (Mar 27, 2013)

I lost my 7 year old standard to bloat in March. We got to the vet within an hour of onset. They did an X-ray and operated. Her spleen tore when her stomach twisted. That evening her prognosis was good. The next day they had problems keeping her heart stabilized. The day after, they still couldn't stabilize her heart and felt there was permanent heart damage. We let her go that afternoon. 

She didn't have any immediate siblings or parents with a history of bloat. She was a fast eater and burped on a regular basis. 

My 6 month old is also a fast eater. Twice she has stopped eating and whined for a minute or two. I've gotten her a slow feed bowl and will be having her stomach tacked when she is spayed. 

Bloat terrifies me and even though we take every precaution not to let her run after eating, it's always a worry. We never let Brandy run after eating and she bloated anyway. 

I need to check with the place my vet recommended. She said they do laproscopically and that is approx $2,000. She said it's less recovery time and smaller incision than a traditional spay. All my other girls had a traditional spay and recovered well, so I want to see if they can do it thru traditional surgery. She also needs to have her eyelid corrected and I'm still paying off a $4,000 bill from the bloat


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## SAS (Jun 16, 2013)

frecklesdmk said:


> I lost my 7 year old standard to bloat in March. We got to the vet within an hour of onset. They did an X-ray and operated. Her spleen tore when her stomach twisted. That evening her prognosis was good. The next day they had problems keeping her heart stabilized. The day after, they still couldn't stabilize her heart and felt there was permanent heart damage. We let her go that afternoon.
> 
> She didn't have any immediate siblings or parents with a history of bloat. She was a fast eater and burped on a regular basis.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry for the loss of your dear pet.


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## frecklesdmk (Mar 27, 2013)

Thank you. I still have times when I cry for her. My husband and sons got Lexi 2 weeks after losing Brandy because they couldn't take the empty house (we lost our 9 year old several months before). 

Having the puppy helped distract but there are times that my heart feels like it just happened yesterday


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I am so sorry you lost your poodle! 

I don't know much about bloat, I have a toy poodle.

The only thing I can comment on is the vets (and human doctors) saying there is less recovery time with lap surgery vs traditional. 

I have had abdominal surgery numerous times. I have had both lap and open. In my open surgery they literally cut me from sternum to belly button. I actually had an easier time recovering from the open surgery. My daughter had to have the exact same surgery that I had open, but hers was lap. Her recovery was worse than mine. 

I will say when I had my gall bladder out lap the recovery was pretty quick.


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