# Raw Feeding Questions



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

When I fed raw I bought a complete mix, ie all the vitamines amd vegetables were already added, nothing else needed. You buy it frozen, and there are a lot of varieties, depending on what you would like : chicken, beef, rabbit, horse, etc. You can vary from month to month, so your dog never gets tired of it. I have the most finicky eater and never once did he not eat it.

To me this is the best solution : you take it out of the freezer the night before and serve the next day. No vegetables to chop, no vitamins to add. No canned food or extra kibbles needed, just the raw mix.

I am sure there must be a company selling this somewhere near you.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

See Lily CD's recent thread on NutriScan results. An easy, well-balanced cooked recipe is there. Buck gets his raw chicken necks for one meal. Buck's AM meal is kibble with a topper to keep it interesting. His breeder told me that the digestion rates differ so she doesn't mix raw and kibble. The raw does take a while. I think of the raw as a nature's toothbrush, extra protein and calcium to the nutrients I am counting on the kibble having.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds to me as if he may have issues with beef - Sophy can't tolerate turkey, and has learned to avoid it. She also dislikes gloopy food, especially when raw, and can only tolerate tiny quantities of liver. As long as he is fit and healthy, I don't think you have much to worry about, especially if the Eagle Pack is not primarily chicken based. Have you tried him with eggs, or canned sardines or salmon? Packed full of useful nutrients, and favourites with my dogs. Or even the dreaded green tripe... But if he is doing well on the diet you are feeding I would not stress too much - nutritional advice on the internet is often based on opinion, faith and extrapolation rather than scientific evidence, and one source will often completely contradict another!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mfmst said:


> See Lily CD's recent thread on NutriScan results. An easy, well-balanced cooked recipe is there. Buck gets his raw chicken necks for one meal. Buck's AM meal is kibble with a topper to keep it interesting. His breeder told me that the digestion rates differ so she doesn't mix raw and kibble. The raw does take a while. I think of the raw as a nature's toothbrush, extra protein and calcium to the nutrients I am counting on the kibble having.



Mfmst I was also going to suggest looking at the recipe Firestorm put together for me, but even above that I was going to suggest to the OP that he order a NutriScan since he mentioned that Teddy seems to have some adverse responses to certain foods. homemadehitshow I really think if you want to straighten out your feeding regime having data about what foods Teddy should and shouldn't be eating will really help you. the NutriScan will cost about $300, but it potentially will save you in many ways later in life through better health for your boy.

http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/220722-nutriscan-summary-interpretation.html

NutriScan Food Sensitivity and Intolerance Test for Cats and Dogs - Dr. Dodds


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

As usual the forum is excellent and non judgmental 

I read through that Nutriscan thread, I don't really feel the need to do that (given the expense) but I did pick up some good ideas from that thread, primarily the mixes that can be added to homemade food and the online source for organ meats (forgetting the name now).

fjm, he likes cooked eggs, doesn't eat sardines (which is weird for a dog). He does eat cooked salmon, haven't' tried canned. The worry is that he is not REALLY healthy inside in ways that might not show up for years. He also has moods on foods, for example he won't eat his canned food for a week then suddenly wants it again. The one he eats is lamb based.

Dechi, other than shipped items there really is nothing like that near me plus we haven't had much luck with that because I think he needs/wants to eat simple combinations.


----------



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

homemadehitshow said:


> As usual the forum is excellent and non judgmental
> 
> I read through that Nutriscan thread, I don't really feel the need to do that (given the expense) but I did pick up some good ideas from that thread, primarily the mixes that can be added to homemade food and the online source for organ meats (forgetting the name now).
> 
> ...


Too bad, maybe one day you will. Just want to point out that they are very simple meals. You can't tell anything has been added. It just looks like plain meat. It's all blended and mashed very well.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Right but he doesn't seem to do well with plain meat. Chicken quarters with bone in works great, but ground chicken or beef upsets his stomach.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have had both my dogs and cats refuse meals when I have added supplements - they can obviously smell them even in tiny quantities! If Teddy has continuing digestive issues I think I would try an elimination diet, starting with things that he seems to enjoy and avoiding any supplements etc. Raw chicken pieces, perhaps with some vegetables and rice cooked in stock made from the carcass, for example. If that goes OK, raw lamb neck with as much fat cut off as possible. Or even the dreaded green tripe, although Poppy has gone off that since she gobbled down her supper portion so fast it gave her a tummy ache! Feeding just one protein source for several weeks, and being very controlled about treats etc, should make it easier to identify which are causing problems. 

I wonder though, given that he does better on chunks than ground, if it is perhaps more to do with the speed of eating, or even the fat content? Poppy is very prone to bolting food, and suffering as a result - I now mix vegetables and some stock or water in when feeding her raw ground meat, and spread it around the bowl to slow her down a bit - or even put down just a little at a time.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

I think I have caused confusion 

On his current diet, he does not have any stomach problems. I just worry that it's not giving him balance. He eats raw chicken, canned lamb and some home cooked food. I make my own treats from chicken and liver (a recent development).

His stomach issues come when we try to add beef or supplements into his diet.

I like a blend of the ideas though. Find a source for some other organ types, try the blend recommended in the other thread, keep home cooking with some variety, I recently got him some omega supplements (chews) which I can get him to eat.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

homemadehitshow, other than believing Lily was sensitive to corn I didn't think my dogs needed NutriScan either. But for example both Peeves and Javelin shouldn't eat oatmeal and it is one of the ingredients in Blue Buffalo, which is what they were eating, so I was really feeding each of them several things that they are sensitive to. I know it isn't cheap, but I am really very hopeful that making feeding adjustments based on the NutriScan results is going to be for the long term health benefit of all three of our dogs. Maybe you can make a savings envelope to put a few bucks in as you are able (not that I am trying to suggest you can't afford it, but spare change savings may make it feel like it hasn't cost you the same way as laying out for it up front and all at once) and pay for it from there. Also if you have insurance for teddy the insurance is likely to pay for it. We self insure so I just took it out of my emergency fund.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Frankly, I think you are letting the best become the enemy of the more than good enough! If he is thriving on what you give him, and it is based around a complete food, I would stick with what works, perhaps experimenting very judiciously with a little more variety when suitable ingredients happen to be available.


----------



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

homemadehitshow said:


> Right but he doesn't seem to do well with plain meat. Chicken quarters with bone in works great, but ground chicken or beef upsets his stomach.


Boneless meat gives Hans soft stools/diarrhea no matter what sort of meat it is. I'm assuming it is because there's no calcium to help firm things up. The pre made raw grinds you can buy definitely have bone in it even though it looks like they are just meat. It might be worth trying a pre made grind or adding ground bone or ground egg shells (you should be able to find either online at a reasonable price) to the boneless meat to see if that helps. You could also try a different protein like duck, rabbit, or venison...Hans finds rabbit very easy to digest, and it can be fed bone in as well. 

I did just have Nutriscan done on Hans, and it was a big help. As it turns out he was sensitive to several things (fish, lentils, and potatoes being the worst) and I doubt we would have figured it out without the testing. His appetite has improved (he's started begging to be fed when it's meal time where I was having to coax him to eat before), his coat texture is nicer, and his ears seem to stay cleaner.

I ended up getting a software program that allows you to create balanced recipes for your dog. Here's what I've found just playing around with recipes:

Without feeding some sort of leafy greens (kale, spinach, chard, etc) Vitamin K often ends up being lower than the recommended allowance.

Without feeding cod liver oil or any other fish vitamin D often ends up low. Beef liver, eggs, and dairy are other sources, but you have to feed larger amounts so it's tough to balance the recipe. I have started supplementing vitamin D since fish and dairy aren't options for Hans.

I use Krill oil instead of fish oil for an omega supplement and also supplement vitamin E because that is what my vet suggested (that if you add omega 3 you should also supplement vitamin E).


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

fjm said:


> Frankly, I think you are letting the best become the enemy of the more than good enough! If he is thriving on what you give him, and it is based around a complete food, I would stick with what works, perhaps experimenting very judiciously with a little more variety when suitable ingredients happen to be available.


I do feel like that also but my worry is - how do I know he is thriving? He's definitely a lively healthy energetic, almost, 2 year old but I worry he's lacking in nutrition balance. He eats a chicken quarter every day (always his first choice) and some home made or canned. Not sure he gets everything he needs from that combination.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

homemadehitshow said:


> I do feel like that also but my worry is - _*how do I know he is thriving*_? He's definitely a lively healthy energetic, almost, 2 year old but I worry he's lacking in nutrition balance. He eats a chicken quarter every day (always his first choice) and some home made or canned. Not sure he gets everything he needs from that combination.



For the answer to that you need data! You can make an empirical judgement by how your dog acts, but my dogs all acted like they felt fine even though I was clearly feeding each of them things they shouldn't have. Do NutriScan and then either ask your vet or use a program like the one Firestorm has to figure out a complete nutritionally adequate diet. Firestorm everyone here is eating their meals enthusiastically too. They are clearly very excited by seeing the prep happening and leave nothing behind after the bowls go down.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Your message is received loud and clear but it's not the only option !!!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

homemadehitshow said:


> Your message is received loud and clear but it's not the only option !!!


But it is the only one that give scientific evidence. The only alternative is an elimination diet which is complex, takes time and can be a hit or miss in terms of really figuring out what is happening if you aren't meticulous in how you do it. If you don't want my advice that is fine, just tell me to stop talking. Oh wait, I guess you just told me that. Good luck with your diet changes since you seem to have decided to rely on luck rather than evidence. I'm out.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

But your responses seem to be implying there IS some kind of problem when I am actually trying to determine if there is a problem. He appears to do well on his current diet, my concern is whether I could be creating a long term problem. Reading over the posts you have clearly become an evangelist for the program but that is causing you to stop actually answering the questions being asked, instead you are just preaching a, not exactly cheap, solution.


----------



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Have you had any bloodwork done? There's some data, and it's not expensive. Do some bloodwork, and repeat it yearly. When you give beef, are you feeding it with bone or boneless? Did he get diarrhea or loose stools? It's higher in fat/calories than chicken, plus bone I said needed in a raw diet for minerals and to firm up stools, so that may be the issue with the ground meat.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

homemadehitshow said:


> But your responses seem to be implying there IS some kind of problem when I am actually trying to determine if there is a problem. He appears to do well on his current diet, my concern is whether I could be creating a long term problem. Reading over the posts you have clearly become an evangelist for the program but that is causing you to stop actually answering the questions being asked, instead you are just preaching a, not exactly cheap, solution.


Well I did say I was out of here, but now that you have accused me of being an"evangelist" for a "program" (sounds like I am running a cult) I do feel I have to reply since you have made a comment that IMO disparages my reputation as a scientist. For the record, I am not preaching anything and I have no financial stake in NutriScan. As to whether NutriScan is cheap or not that is up to each of us to decide. I don't think it is cheap, but I also believe that the data I obtained was worth the price I paid to obtain it. 

You say you are trying to determine if your dog has a problem. If that is really what you are trying to figure out then why wouldn't you want to collect data as evidence of either everything being fine or something being wrong? Knowing whether a particular dog (cat, horse or whatever) has sensitivities or intolerances to a particular food item is a way to to avoid problems by beinag able to eliminate that food from the animal's diet. If you don't want to pay for NutriScan that is your decision, but do gather some sort of data based evidence rather than relying on opinions, impressions, intuitions and blogs.


----------



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

homemadehitshow said:


> But your responses seem to be implying there IS some kind of problem when I am actually trying to determine if there is a problem. He appears to do well on his current diet, my concern is whether I could be creating a long term problem. Reading over the posts you have clearly become an evangelist for the program but that is causing you to stop actually answering the questions being asked, instead you are just preaching a, not exactly cheap, solution.


I don't think any of us can know for sure if what you are feeding is balanced without knowing more about the nutrition content of exactly what you are feeding. Chicken quarters alone are not balanced, but depending on how much balanced commercial diet you are feeding that might make up for it. 

I feel like the information I gave you in my other post got lost because I also mentioned Nutriscan. I've been using software to compare the nutritional content of food I've been making for Hans to the recommended daily allowances, and I've been finding that my cooking or homemade raw isn't easy to balance without some supplements and some veggies, especially because I have to avoid certain ingredients. So it certainly seems possible that your homemade food could be lacking in certain nutrients. But you can definitely come up with balanced homemade food...you just have to do some research and calculations.

I also think the issues you are seeing with the ground meat may be the fact that it is boneless rather than a food sensitivity. I think balancing the calcium/phosphorus instead of feeding boneless meat might help.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that as long as you are feeding him a complete balanced food, and supplementing not more than 20-25% with bone in chicken that includes dark meat, it is unlikely in the extreme that he will suffer from any nutritional imbalance or inadequacy due to diet. If you were feeding him on pizza and breakfast cereal it might be another matter, of course! 

Every dog varies in what they can happily eat and digest - Sopy, as I have said, hates gloopy food and can't eat turkey at all; Poppy can't take much fat and easily gets constipated; both need some vegetables or they self supplement on cow, sheep and rabbit droppings out on walks... You've found a diet that suits Teddy, go with it! Swapping the chicken quarter for scrambled eggs or sardines/salmon once a week or so, as you say he likes those, won't do any harm, and if he likes cooked vegetables and they don't upset his stomach (I have to be careful giving mine spinach) they, and the water they are cooked in, may add a few more water soluble vitamins, easily peed away if not needed.

But it seems to me that you are overthinking things, something that I am very prone to myself. Which is why I am going to have to go shopping today for boneless chicken, to mix with the minced rabbit I sourced with some difficulty to add variety to their diet. They love it, but it is so high in bone that their poos are like little white bullets after eating it... Back to the drawing board!


----------



## mjpa (Dec 11, 2016)

homemadehitshow said:


> Right but he doesn't seem to do well with plain meat. Chicken quarters with bone in works great, but ground chicken or beef upsets his stomach.



We don't have a poodle yet (fingers crossed for one expected this spring) but I'm very interested in a raw/home-cooked diet so I've been reading all I can about it.

When you say upset stomach, do you mean he gets diarrhea or are there also other signs of distress? 

If it's just loose stools - some of the articles I've been reading say that the bone acts to make poo firmer, so I was wondering if mixing some edible bone meal or crushed eggs including shells into the meat will be helpful?


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

mjpa, mostly diarrhea, though after a bowl of ground beef he did end up in the vet since he couldn't get rid of his problems. We haven't had him eat plain meat for a few months.

fjm, not overthinking, just asking after reading some articles from Dr Becker who listed "unbalanced homemade diet" as the worst feeding program, below commercial foods etc. All these posts provide useful information that I can use to inform myself.

Not sure how to source beef with bones in it outside of the expensively shipped grinds.

By the way, if you take the bones of a chicken, particularly chicken thighs and cook them in a pressure cooker for a lengthy period, you can then crumble them into a great bone mix that all the dogs (even the smaller ones that don't eat raw much) love sprinkled on their food.


----------



## mjpa (Dec 11, 2016)

homemadehitshow said:


> By the way, if you take the bones of a chicken, particularly chicken thighs and cook them in a pressure cooker for a lengthy period, you can then crumble them into a great bone mix that all the dogs (even the smaller ones that don't eat raw much) love sprinkled on their food.



That sounds like a great way to use up cooked chicken bones, thanks!


----------



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

> Not sure how to source beef with bones in it outside of the expensively shipped grinds.


You can buy either ground bone powder or crushed/ground egg shells made specifically for adding to dog food. You can also save egg shells and grind them yourself. You can add the powder to regular boneless meat.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

Any suggestions on how much to add?

What is a reasonable price to pay for bonemeal? Amazon seems to charging about $12 per lb.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I teaspoonful of ground eggshell per 1 pound meat is the recommended proportion. If you use bonemeal you need to know how much calcium it contains - bonemeal also contains phosphorus, so the balance can get fiddly!


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

That doesn't seem like much compared to eating meat/bone or a grind?

Is phosphorus added to bone meal or is it part of the bones?


----------



## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I fed raw to my previous standard for a long time. If I had ground beef (or any meat without bone in it) I would feed it with a turkey neck to add in the bone content. Either by themselves were too much meat or too much bone.



> Is phosphorus added to bone meal or is it part of the bones?


Its in the bones.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The hard portion of the bone matrix is Calcium Phosphate primarily.


----------



## homemadehitshow (Jul 8, 2015)

bigpoodleperson said:


> I fed raw to my previous standard for a long time. If I had ground beef (or any meat without bone in it) I would feed it with a turkey neck to add in the bone content. Either by themselves were too much meat or too much bone.


I have fed him turkey necks but just searching for something related I find that Google reports you should NEVER feed turkey necks to dogs?

Check it out

https://www.google.com/search?num=1...12.4.1634...0i67k1j0i20k1j0i131k1.mRXuau-Q9_A


----------



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

homemadehitshow said:


> I have fed him turkey necks but just searching for something related I find that Google reports you should NEVER feed turkey necks to dogs?
> 
> Check it out
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?num=1...12.4.1634...0i67k1j0i20k1j0i131k1.mRXuau-Q9_A


The issues with turkey necks are that they are high in bone content, the bone is pretty dense, and they are also round and firm, so when cut up they can be a choking hazard. I've known of 3 dogs that have choked to death because the owner cut them in chunks and fed them that way - it's like feeding a cut up hot dog to a toddler. Many people also feed too much of them and their dog ends up with a belly full of bone, puking up bone shards, passing undigested bone, and I've heard of dogs with obstructions because the owner feeds the necks daily.

The necks I get are tom turkey necks and weigh over a pound each. I feed one turkey neck to Asaah and she'd need at least 2 completely boneless meals plus whatever boneless meat I fed with the neck, so I feed about 7 or so pounds of meat per one neck. Since I have a 115 lb dog, I do use them occasionally, but honestly I usually just get duck necks - they're the same price for me and less worry. In my 2 raw groups, we don't usually recommend them to anyone unless they're an experienced raw feeder. They can be fed, but they should be fed with care.


----------

