# Big Bully!



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Looks like Neapolitan Mastiff crossed with English Mastiff to me. But it is huge!


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

this dog (bred by the woman pictured) is supposedly a pure bred "Pit Bull". Not an AmStaff, not an American Pitbull Terrier, just a pit bull. And since that's not actually a breed of dog, but rather a "type", you can already guess how shady they are. Most experts in the actual bully breed world believe that they have crossed their dogs with mastiffs, as neither the AmStaff nor the APBT have heads anywhere near that jowly or are over 45-55 pounds. 

the breeder became famous after their dogs were pictured in a commonly-shared article on Facebook about pit bulls. :/


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

If those things become a trend, I will be carrying a gun on all of our walks :lol:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Definitely a mastiff! English and Neopolitan ARE the largest too! Good call N2!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Whatever it is I think it is horribly ugly and it is terrifying to me to think someone bred for that on purpose.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

This is just a big mutt that idiots are breeding for profit because other idiots buy them...they're basically the doodle of the bully breed world. There will always be a breed that idiots and trash will exploit because they want a big and tough dog. German Shepherds, Akitas, Dobermans, and Rotties have had their turn, it's the pit bull's turn now, and soon enough it'll be another breed's turn. 

Gotta say though, I'm a little surprised and kind of disappointed by all the breed bashing here. I've seen it on multiple threads since I've joined and wasn't really expecting it. It's not something I've really come across on other dog forums. I personally don't like or dislike pit bulls. I probably wouldn't get one, but have met some really nice ones. I have a big problem with backyard breeders and crappy owners much more than with any particular breed. And I have to say that I go in people's home to work up close and personal with them on a daily basis and have had so many more problems with toy dogs (including several tpoos) than any big dog including bully breeds and mixes.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

oshagcj914 said:


> This is just a big mutt that idiots are breeding for profit because other idiots buy them...they're basically the doodle of the bully breed world. There will always be a breed that idiots and trash will exploit because they want a big and tough dog. German Shepherds, Akitas, Dobermans, and Rotties have had their turn, it's the pit bull's turn now, and soon enough it'll be another breed's turn.
> 
> Gotta say though, I'm a little surprised and kind of disappointed by all the breed bashing here. I've seen it on multiple threads since I've joined and wasn't really expecting it. It's not something I've really come across on other dog forums. I personally don't like or dislike pit bulls. I probably wouldn't get one, but have met some really nice ones. I have a big problem with backyard breeders and crappy owners much more than with any particular breed. And I have to say that I go in people's home to work up close and personal with them on a daily basis and have had so many more problems with toy dogs (including several tpoos) than any big dog including bully breeds and mixes.


There are a number of long term members here that have had dogs killed or severely injured by pit bulls. The statistics world wide speak for themselves. Many nations have wholesale banned them. Most members here like dogs, period. This is a Poodle forum. We are biased toward poodles. We like great Danes too but this is not their forum. We do have a hate group here for pit bulls. We as a rule dislike doodle breeds and breeders but do not discriminate against the owners or dogs per se.
I hope your stay here is a happy one.
Eric.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

oshagcj914 said:


> This is just a big mutt that idiots are breeding for profit because other idiots buy them...they're basically the doodle of the bully breed world. There will always be a breed that idiots and trash will exploit because they want a big and tough dog. German Shepherds, Akitas, Dobermans, and Rotties have had their turn, it's the pit bull's turn now, and soon enough it'll be another breed's turn.
> 
> Gotta say though, I'm a little surprised and kind of disappointed by all the breed bashing here. I've seen it on multiple threads since I've joined and wasn't really expecting it. It's not something I've really come across on other dog forums. I personally don't like or dislike pit bulls. I probably wouldn't get one, but have met some really nice ones. I have a big problem with backyard breeders and crappy owners much more than with any particular breed. And I have to say that I go in people's home to work up close and personal with them on a daily basis and have had so many more problems with toy dogs (including several tpoos) than any big dog including bully breeds and mixes.


Pit bulls have the potential to be exceptionally dangerous. Obviously it is not their fault; it is all at the hands of corrupt people who created fighting dogs. I've said many times that I think they're among the sweetest of all dogs, and I volunteered in many shelters full of pits. But they have the potential to snap and kill pets and people. I've been attacked by a Maltese and a Chihuahua, and my silky terrier bit me now and then (he was a shelter rescue). But did I ever have to fear for my life? No. I truly believe all the pits living today should find appropriate homes, but be spayed and neutered so no more are born. That is my opinion, and I am welcome to it.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is more about the greedy stupidity of the people for me. Whatever kind of dog you are talking about, a person is behind creating and promoting it. I think that people who purposely create danger for other dogs and more importantly for people are too self involved for the well being of the rest of us.

I agree that small dogs can be nasty and dangerous if not properly trained. I had someone call me for private training who had a pug mix that had no bite inhibition at all. Thankfully it was winter and I had long sleeves on so I only had bruises not punctures. That being said I also used to have to think twice about walking my dogs in my neighborhood because of pitties that were improperly or unrestrained that regularly charged dogs walking past their property. One attacked Peeves twice (thankfully did no harm) and did wound another neighbors dog to the tune of $500+. One charged at Lily and was continually trying to get into my yard by digging under our fence. In the other direction was a labradoodle that attacked Peeves when he was a puppy.

Most of the people here who seem to "bash" a particular type of dog aren't prejudiced, but rather sadly have had bad experiences and others have been far worse than mine.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I can see how easy it would be to have a problem with a breed that you've had a personal negative experience with. I've been fortunate to never have had a dog be attacked by another dog, probably owing to where I live, although Finn (intact male) has been snapped at several times. I must confess that I had that problem with toy poodles. There's this toy poodle breeder around here somewhere that lots of local people must have bought puppies from, and they're just awful. Ugly little mean bug eyed rats that bark and snap at everyone. I hated them. But then I started going to shows and met some wonderful little well bred toys and changed my tune. Its so terrible how people ruin dogs. I don't know how banning a breed is going to help. The same people will just find another breed to ruin/exploit, like Corsos or Boerboels.


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## Mason (Aug 17, 2016)

Any dog can be ruined through poor breeding, neglect, and/or abuse, but not every dog can be made truly dangerous.

I'm not necessarily pro breed bans (especially if they require even healthy, well-trained dogs to be rehomed or euthanized), but once you see the power in certain breeds you do think twice. We had a staffy mix who was thrown out of a car in front of us at ~7 months old, and though my parents were able to rehabilitate her to some extent she was never safe around small animals. At one point, she found a porcupine and just refused to abandon the attack until she had killed it. The vet said he removed 200 quills before he stopped counting. Nothing could stop her once she had decided to kill that porcupine -- no amount of pain, nothing. It was a sobering experience for us.

I'll also note that this dog was just sugar with people; no aggression at all. Staffies can be the sweetest dogs. But through no fault of their own, they have a tremendous capacity to do harm.

Unfortunately, dog fighting is still a reality, and a lot of people who seek out bully breeds are terrible people who just want a vicious-looking dog to chain out front. It honestly might be better for the dogs if some of these breeds were phased out.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

At the ABI shows up here, they allow breeds known as No-Touch dogs. The judge doesn't even approach them in the conformation ring. You can spot them when you arrive... they're set up with cage and canopy well away from the rest of the competitors. But not well enuf it turns out. 

Strange breeds. I think somebody picks the name of a South American country, then adds Dogo... et voila!... a new breed. :ahhhhh:

One problem with this is that ABI has inadequate protocols to prevent owners from barking at naive grandkids who innocently get too close to their dogs. They're not much interested in dog shows now.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I do not think it is all the owners fault with pit bulls, they have turned on family members and were very sweet with the family prior. Parents had babysit their son's dog for 4 or 5 years, it turned on the mother and mulled her badly, needless to say it was put down. The dog had wonderful owners, and was sweet as could be, never showed any sighs of aggression prior.


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## Mason (Aug 17, 2016)

glorybeecosta said:


> I do not think it is all the owners fault with pit bulls, they have turned on family members and were very sweet with the family prior. Parents had babysit their son's dog for 4 or 5 years, it turned on the mother and mulled her badly, needless to say it was put down. The dog had wonderful owners, and was sweet as could be, never showed any sighs of aggression prior.


I'm no expert, but the sudden aggression sounds like neurological disease/injury. Obviously that's not the owners' fault, and it can sadly happen to any dog. I do think that's one hard-to-foresee risk to having a very powerful animal, however friendly or well-trained. So sorry for the family!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Mason said:


> I'm no expert, but the sudden aggression sounds like neurological disease/injury. Obviously that's not the owners' fault, and it can sadly happen to any dog. I do think that's one hard-to-foresee risk to having a very powerful animal, however friendly or well-trained. So sorry for the family!


With a breed selected for dog/dog aggression for centuries and still used for organized fighting. It is not disease it is careful breeding. I you take time to study and hear from the responsible pit bull owners you will learn that they know their pets can attack without warning and carry break sticks to separate them from their prey. They are like time bombs with an indeterminate fuse. They might never "go off" but when they do death is often the result. The statistics (also available on the web for those who care to look) are appalling. More than 70% of fatal dog attacks on humans are pit bulls. This is not a breed that should be tolerated in today's society. They can be very sweet in their own family and even there, fatal attacks on children occur.

They are not popular with most poodle people.

Eric


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## Mason (Aug 17, 2016)

ericwd9 said:


> With a breed selected for dog/dog aggression for centuries and still used for organized fighting. It is not disease it is careful breeding. I you take time to study and hear from the responsible pit bull owners you will learn that they know their pets can attack without warning and carry break sticks to separate them from their prey. They are like time bombs with an indeterminate fuse. They might never "go off" but when they do death is often the result. The statistics (also available on the web for those who care to look) are appalling. More than 70% of fatal dog attacks on humans are pit bulls. This is not a breed that should be tolerated in today's society. They can be very sweet in their own family and even there, fatal attacks on children occur.
> 
> They are not popular with most poodle people.
> 
> Eric


I don't know who you know, but I've known responsible folks with staffies and none of them "carry break sticks"! (What kind of responsible owner carries a stick to hit their dog with? What does that tell you about them and their relationship with their dogs?) The picture you're painting is a world apart from what I've seen. "Pit bulls" aren't a breed; it's the label given to any dog with the boxy staffy-type look -- usually poorly-bred, poorly-treated dogs that wind up in dog fighting operations... or in shelters when they don't bait well and get dumped by the aforementioned dog fighting operations. Yes, those dogs are dangerous -- they were bred and trained to be dangerous.

Most dog attacks happen not when a normally well-behaved dog snaps, but when a dog with known aggression issues isn't controlled. The world is not full of "pit bulls" that seem perfectly friendly for years and then suddenly somehow have their demon genes activated, but it is full of these over- and poorly-bred dogs languishing on chains and behind fences so their owners can feel like they've got the toughest dog on the block.

When a dog shows no signs whatsoever of aggression for years and, in middle-to-old age, suddenly attacks with no warning -- that looks like neurological trouble to me. It happens. In most cases, nobody is seriously injured or killed because the dog isn't strong enough to do that kind of damage. You don't hear about it when it's a chihuahua, and you rarely hear about it when it's a lab -- if nobody's seriously hurt, it doesn't make the news.

All that said, these dogs are physically very capable of causing serious damage and that's probably reason enough to end their breeding. However, the idea that most attacks are happening due to demon genes lying dormant in otherwise well-socialized "pit bull" types is just silly. Most of these attacks are the result of poor breeding and poor treatment (for one thing, I would suggest NOT beating your dog with a stick). The dog that suddenly snaps after YEARS of gentle behavior is an outlier.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Having had a dog attacked by a pit mix, a dog that she had known and socialized with for 3 years, I am not one who is in favor of pit bull, pit mixes of any kind. 

That dog who attacked Iris was well trained, well raised and I was with it every single day for 3 years observing it's behavior and demeanor and I saw NO signs of an unstable dog.....until Iris was attacked. It took two of us a very very long time to separate the two dogs.

Too powerful and way too unstable in my opinion.

If you ever have to pry one of these things off of your beloved pet who is screaming and struggling for her life, you would share my opinion.

If you add to the equation the fact that many of the bully breed owners are macho types wanting to show off tough dogs and who have no dog experience, these dogs are tickng time bombs.

Having experienced a totally unprovoked and unexpected pit type dog attack, the sight of a pit mix monster dog such as is pictured here makes me physically ill.

Of course, this is my humble opinion, based on a really horrific dog attack experience.

:amen:

VQ


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

A break stick is not used to hit a dog, but rather to wedge the jaws open when they have locked onto a "prey" item. Here is a picture.

http://www.pbrc.net/shop/images/hickorybreaksmall.gif


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

A break stick is not to hit the dog with. It is a special stick used to pry open the dogs mouth. Like Viking Queen said, until you and two other people are trying desperately to pry open the mouth of one of these dogs while they have a death grip on your very much loved dog, you can have NO IDEA what if feels like. To watch as your dogs lung is punctured so she can't even scream out in pain. To watch her lose bowel control as her life is slipping away so. very. slowly. To have your own blood running down your arms as you cut your fingers on the dogs teeth trying to find some way to make it let go as everything seems to be happening in slow motion. Then have your beloved dog dropped to the ground in a lifeless heap, but she is still breathing! Rushing to get her to the vet in time and having her lungs fill with blood. Watching as it seeps from her nostrils and mouth and her take her final breath. You have NO IDEA! Defending this disgusting breed is asinine.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> A break stick is not to hit the dog with. It is a special stick used to pry open the dogs mouth. Like Viking Queen said, until you and two other people are trying desperately to pry open the mouth of one of these dogs while they have a death grip on your very much loved dog, you can have NO IDEA what if feels like. To watch as your dogs lung is punctured so she can't even scream out in pain. To watch her lose bowel control as her life is slipping away so. very. slowly. To have your own blood running down your arms as you cut your fingers on the dogs teeth trying to find some way to make it let go as everything seems to be happening in slow motion. Then have your beloved dog dropped to the ground in a lifeless heap, but she is still breathing! Rushing to get her to the vet in time and having her lungs fill with blood. Watching as it seeps from her nostrils and mouth and her take her final breath. You have NO IDEA! Defending this disgusting breed is asinine.


:crying: I hope by sharing these sad details you will change some people's minds, N2. Again, I'm so sorry for your tragic loss


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Mason said:


> *I'm no expert*, but the sudden aggression sounds like neurological disease/injury. Obviously that's not the owners' fault, and it can sadly happen to any dog. I do think that's one hard-to-foresee risk to having a very powerful animal, however friendly or well-trained. So sorry for the family!


You are showing your inexperience and you are aware of it. Perpetuating the myth that bull-terrier breeds are non aggressive is a danger in itself. Liking the pit-bull breeds is no crime. They are popular for good reasons too. BUT any owner or prospective owner needs to understand the breed and be cautious. My advise to any pet or dog owner irrespective of breed is: Keep your pet safe and keep us all safe from it.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

One thing I like about this forum is that your experience here is tracked and shown alongside your Nick... when you joined, how much you've participated, and how many times your posts have been Thanked by other members. 

It takes a long time to make a full orange bar. And many Thanks shows that your comments are well taken and mostly useful. You are a valued and experienced member.


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## someday (May 3, 2016)

I do wonder how the "snap" and relentless attack instinct (for lack of better term) was bred into some breeds and if it could ever be bred out.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

someday I doubt that the behavioral tendencies of any breed are monogenic, but rather polygenic and therefore the effort to breed that behavior out would not be a matter of trying to get rid of one disadvantageous gene as is the case with many genetic disorders.

Just because a person is new to the forum doesn't mean they have nothing useful to say. We were all new here at one time or another. I have to say that I also don't particularly think that a dog just suddenly snaps for no reason and attacks a person or other dog. Either there were warning signs that were missed, dismissed as small or the person involved pretended it wasn't meaningful or as was suggested above if the dog is older and really does suddenly display out of character (for its life history) behavior I also would be looking for a neurological cause.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Mason said:


> I don't know who you know, but I've known responsible folks with staffies and none of them "carry break sticks"! (What kind of responsible owner carries a stick to hit their dog with? What does that tell you about them and their relationship with their dogs?) The picture you're painting is a world apart from what I've seen. "Pit bulls" aren't a breed; it's the label given to any dog with the boxy staffy-type look -- usually poorly-bred, poorly-treated dogs that wind up in dog fighting operations... or in shelters when they don't bait well and get dumped by the aforementioned dog fighting operations. Yes, those dogs are dangerous -- they were bred and trained to be dangerous.
> 
> Most dog attacks happen not when a normally well-behaved dog snaps, but when a dog with known aggression issues isn't controlled. The world is not full of "pit bulls" that seem perfectly friendly for years and then suddenly somehow have their demon genes activated, but it is full of these over- and poorly-bred dogs languishing on chains and behind fences so their owners can feel like they've got the toughest dog on the block.
> 
> ...


You do not hit the dog with the break stick, you pry the dogs mouth open to make it let go of its prey. And it takes a log of strength to pry the mouth open. There are plenty of videos of showing a pit attach on both dogs and humans, and the after math. I had one go after my 4 pound poodle, and let me tell you, if I would have had a gun, I would not hesitate shooting the dog on the spot, since I did not I took my anger out on the owner, once my dog was safe. Any dog unless trained for an attach dog should be done away with to protect other dogs or humans. Other wise keep the owner should keep it on there own property in a safe manor so as not to escape. 

As my neighbor said when moving in oh she is friendly, I said it is kept on lease correct, he replied yes, will not the case, and their landlord said how sweet a dog it was, well not when it come to my poodle.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I know exactly what you mean about yappy, ill bred toy poodles that bite. I have seen them and am not a fan but if attacked I feel I could hold my own. I have been on the verge of being attacked by two loose pit bulls. If my husband had not been with me I have no doubt I would have been severely injured. They were foaming at the mouth and snapping and growling. Ever seen Cujo- that will give you an idea of how they looked. I froze but my husband got me moving and the dogs were confused by our behavior. For about three years I would cross the street to avoid a dog - even a tiny toy. I also saw one go beserk during an obedience class. The instructor prevented the attack by throwing chairs at the attacker and by fencing in the intended victim, a tiny Pomeranian, till the owner (with the help of others) could restrain her dog. The pit bull was well socialized and a regular in obedience and agility classes. We were doing a practice agility contest. One minute he was running the course and in the next minute he was out for blood. This was a dog I liked. I will never trust a pit bull.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> -snip- I have to say that I also don't particularly think that a dog just suddenly snaps for no reason and attacks a person or other dog. Either there were warning signs that were missed, dismissed as small or the person involved pretended it wasn't meaningful or as was suggested above if the dog is older and really does suddenly display out of character (for its life history) behavior I also would be looking for a neurological cause.


Since Mason is here in the Bay Area like me, I think s/he has a chance to seek out real and local information. Some Pit Bull human fatality cases we have had (and the Presa Canario tragedy) clearly support your post here, Lily CD RE. One case the parents locked the child in the home alone with three Pit Bulls, one of which was a bitch in heat. With two intact males.

In other words, the adults left a weaponized situation which no child or likely adult could have controlled. A grandfather left a grandson alone with PBs. One has but to search on sfgate.com or bing to bring up the stories. The Diane Whipple case goes without saying and those owners egged on the dogs' natural tendencies.

Yes, I have met lovely Pit Bulls here. One can't not in this city. But do I turn my Toy Poodle loose with one? Not if I can help it. That's not the only dog aggressive breed and/or type, of course, and individual dogs can be DA. Heck, there is a herding mix where I live who would love to kill Oliver and once almost had a go at it. If that had been a Pit Bull/AmStaff/bully type etc. with all their power, the owner could not likely have snatched the dog away from mine.

Btw, I respect Bad Rap's work though feel their website in places is a bit on the cheerleady side. But they are very careful in placements, offer support and follow up training, and I know for a fact they have euthanized. Mostly, they educate people on managing their dogs appropriately, and make sure owners know about strong terriers.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I looked after a 'pit bull' once for a few weeks. One of the sweetest little guys I ever had... a great dog. But hell-on-wheels around anything on four legs.

He'd spot something and freeze... no bark, no growl, no sound... and the charge... fast and silently. Then hit them like a cannon ball! Before they knew it he had them tumbling head over heels and was at them from above.

It was hard to turn him down when he was offered to me. But considering the possible dramatic consequences of him getting loose... way too much responsibility.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I had not intended this post to be a pit/bull love/hate session. I was simply staggered and surprised anyone would want to breed the monster in the photo I posted. APBTs and their crosses have now been banned in many nations and states. This was not done lightly. They can be a sweet dog but their temperament has been PROVED to be unstable and their dog-aggression is famed world wide. I am not really in favor of breed banning but owners of known dangerous breeds, need control that is lacking.
Eric.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

It touches a sore spot with some of us. Size does come into play as a small vicious dog is still relatively easy to deal with. Swizzle who is very cautious around other dogs is completely comfortable around some big dogs (loves Great Danes) but is always nervous around German Shepards and pit bulls. I wonder some of that is from me as a friend of mine was attacked by a German Shepard in front of me and I had that bad experience with Pit Bulls. I frankly do not understand the appeal of the dog pictured. Freakishly large and ungainly.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Ericwd9, I'm with you. Why would anyone breed a dog like that? What a terrifying sight.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Ericwd9, I'm with you. Why would anyone breed a dog like that? What a terrifying sight.


I think the dog in question fills the need for a large fierce looking dog to either scare the neighbors or show how tough the ego poor owner is. I have seen very obviously weak ego young people strutting with their ego support dog. I'm sure the dog is a good support and I applaud the use of dogs in that role. However the people involved tend to want a dog that is intimidating or has a reputation of aggression. This provides the market for such monsters who may well be wusses and darlings but have the potential to be very dangerous.

Eric.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

That dog really looks more like some kind of Mastiff than Pit Bull to me. Our neighbors down the road have a Neapolitan Mastiff, and he is HUGE (but much different temperament than any pit bull I've ever met - he's a big lumbering couch potato). 

On the subject of the "attacks without warning" I think there are a few points to consider. One is that a significant portion of the population is really clueless about dog body language and dog behavior. I also think a lot of dogs are not well socialized, which certainly doesn't help. In the cases of small dogs/small animals/small children I also think predatory drift is at play in at least some cases where a dog that isn't normally a problem "snaps." I've witnessed it a few times, once with a Husky and once with a Greyhound. Here's a short article in case people haven't heard of predatory drift: Predatory Drift - What is it? How to avoid it!

In a lot of cases, "aggression" is a pretty broad term when fear, defensiveness, prey drive, or resource guarding are actually occurring. I realize the label might not matter if you/your dog/your family member are on the receiving end, but I think that looking at the bigger picture it does matter if we want people to do a better job of recognizing and preventing potential problems. 

Not to mention, when an attack does happen, I suspect that there aren't too many people who are going to say "Yep, we always thought our dog was going to snap." Instead, they stick with "We had no idea." 

The last pit bull type dog related fatality around my area was the case of a 2 or 3 year old child sent out in the back yard by himself while he was visiting family. There were two dogs in the yard, locked out there because they were outside dogs (probably not well socialized) and the kid had ice cream. Lots of problems in that case I think, starting with the fact that toddlers shouldn't be outside alone, or around any dogs alone (I don't care what breed they are). Add to that the presence of food and the possibility for resource guarding and you have the makings of a disaster. Of course, the emphasis is put on the breed in the headlines (in actuality, at least one of the dogs turned out to be a boxer/lab mix...not sure about the other one) and the devastated family has no idea how this could have happened. 

I think on the whole there is a mentality that "good dogs would never bite and only bad dogs bite" (not talking about this forum, just in general) as though "good" dogs somehow know that it's morally wrong to bite humans/other dogs/other animals. Everyone would be better off I think, if they had the mentality that any dog could bite. Because honestly _most_ dogs will bite given the right (or maybe wrong is the better word) set of circumstances. If more people understood that, they might do a better job of paying attention to the warning signs. 

I'm not really wanting to get into the debate of pit bulls being good or bad, but I do think they are an intense breed. Certainly not right for every owner (probably best for only experienced, knowledgeable dog owners). Unfortunately, they are so common in shelters and rescues that a lot of people who probably shouldn't have them end up with them. Before we got Hans, we looked at the shelter website for our county. Almost all of the bigger dogs were pit bull types.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

FireStorm thank you for your thoughtful discussion and the link on predatory drift. Not that this thread was meant to be about pitties per say, but the issues of understanding why a dog will bite and the attitude about understanding dogs that you raised are always worth revisiting.

I agree with you that most people are pretty clueless about canine body language.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I do know of one dog that "snapped" without warning. A German Shephard that I think was about two years old. Great breeding, imported from Germany from schutzhund champions. The owner is experienced having competed at a high level in both obedience and agility. She was taking a private agility class when her dog veered for the teacher. The teacher (who is my agility teacher) fortunately knew how to react and was able to protect her throat and not get thrown to the ground. My classmate had the dog put down as the attack was unprovoked and vicious. I could tell the dog was dog aggressive (at least toward Swizzle) not because he acted out but because of the way he would look at Swizzle. His owner was very conscious of this though and would always distract him with tasks. It was a horrible situation and was heartbreaking for my classmate to go through. The breeder did give her another puppy. Evidently this break can happen occasionally with German Shephards. So in this case two very experienced dog people did not see the signs.


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## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

Studying the bully photo in depth, I believe one swing of those jowels & what would come flying out, if it were to hit me, would knock me right over.


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