# Breeders and Deposits



## plumcrazy

Is the deposit refundable if the references don't check out? If it is, then I wouldn't worry too much.

It isn't unusual for a breeder to request deposits to hold puppies for future owners. As long as the deposit is refundable for certain reasons (not enough puppies born to fulfill the number of deposits, not enough of a specific gender or color to satisfy the list, etc...) there should be no problem...

If, however, someone simply changes their mind and doesn't want a puppy anymore, I think it's reasonable for the breeder to hold on to the deposit until they are sure the puppy will be placed. There may be more advertising costs and costs to keep the puppy longer than anticpated, etc...

If the breeders have good references, themselves, I wouldn't sweat giving them a deposit. IMO...

Barb


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## Keithsomething

Whose the breeder Tink?

I wouldn't give them a deposit before they checked references, if they have that many "puppy orders" I think you'd probably be better off going to a more reputable breeder...I also wouldn't ever give a deposit BEFORE a litter of puppies is born, what happens if what you want isn't born or you decide that you don't want to work with that breeder? You've lost your deposit and maybe the chance of going to another breeder if you're wasting time with this one


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If the references check out, I would not hesitate to give a deposit. We take deposits prior to breeding, and we make it very clear, in writing, that in the event we do not have what they want, we will happily refund their deposit.


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## Tink

*Update*

I think I have made a mistake. When I started this thread I had already sent the deposit to the breeder. I was looking for people's opinions since I was feeling that this was probably poor judgement on my part.

I talked to the breeder several times about puppies that were ready for their new home. I asked repeatedly for pictures but the breeder isn't camera savvy and needed to wait for her daughter to load the pictures on the computer. While I was waiting for pictures I talked to the breeder several times. She asked for references and I provided them. She then asked for a $800 deposit before the references would be checked. Normally I would not have even considered doing business with a breeder that asked for a deposit before sending me pictures or checking references. However, this breeder has a very good reputation on this board. I wired the $800 on March 13th and was told that the references would be checked on the 14th or the 16th and if the references did not check out that the money would be returned immediately. My references have not been contacted. I was assured that by March 18 or 19 I would receive the pictures, which had been promised several times prior, but they were not sent.

Last night I sent an email requesting that my deposit be returned due to lack of action on her part.

I'm interested in hearing what the forum thinks.


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## Carley's Mom

Well, I am still trying to close my mouth that anyone would want an $800 depoist . That seems a bit high to me... Is that the going depoist amount? Wow!


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## peppersb

I paid a deposit of half of the purchase price, but that was when the pups were 7 weeks old, and I not only saw them but chose the one I wanted. However, as Plumcrazy and Arreau have said, I think it is OK to place a deposit before the pups are born so long as there is a written agreement that specifies the conditions under which the deposit would or would not be returned. 

And speaking of written agreements, I don't think anyone should EVER put a deposit down without a written agreement and without seeing (and if necessary, negotiating) any purchase agreement that will follow.


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## PaddleAddict

I don't know, it's only been a few days. I think that the breeder could be busy and still working on checking references... is there a litter born? If so, that's a lot of work. It could just be taking longer than she thought. 

Who is the breeder?


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## katbrat

I am trying to remember the exact order of things when we got Lexi. We had talked to the breeder several time by phone. She then emailed us a copy of the purchase agreement and all the paperwork. We filled out everything and mailed a deposit back which was $200.00. We heard from her pretty quick that everything was in order. We asked for a picture and got one. We had a toy poodle that got very ill and had to put the new puppy on hold, so we lost out on our first color/gender choice at that time. We were in contact with the breeder the whole time and she agreed to hold our deposit. When we lost our toy, we contacted the breeder. She only had males in the colors we wanted. She did have a white female who was twelve weeks old, or we could wait for the next liter which was not going to be for 5-7 months. We didn't want to wait that long to have puppy feet in the house. We brought Lexi home a week later.


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## Marcoislandmom

*Deposits and Puppies*

Giving a deposit for a puppy is standard. We just committed to a standard and the breeder provided a contract and requested a deposit for $200. Does the breeder to whom you paid a deposit have a website? You can google to get a phone number .... phone calls should be answered. I personally think you should get a reply or write (the old fashioned way) a demand letter for an update on the status of the pup or return of deposit.

That was a big deposit. More typical is 10% of the pup price and then either progress payment when the pup is selected and a second one prior to ship or simply a payment prior to shipment. My breeder has you pay in full at selection because that happens at 5 weeks and the pup ships at 8.


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## Tink

I have left a message for the breeder and asked her to give me a call.


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## Fond of Poodles

It's normal for breeders to require a deposit, and if they have waiting lists, they could require that deposit prior to a litter being born.

Are you waiting for pictures of the litter? Or of the dam and sire?


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## Carley's Mom

That's what I had thought as well, about 10% of the purchase price . I hope everything works out okay, I think it will if the breeder is well thought of around here... we are a picky bunch.


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## farleysd

A deposit is normal, in fact often times a deposit is sent prior to a breeding. I normally have a few people on my list with deposits well in advance of the litter. I will have people contact me when I have a litter, but they are not ready for a puppy at that moment, so they will send a deposit to be high up on my next list.

Refunds are seldom needed because I will only accept 5 deposits prior to the breeding, after the puppies are born, then I will decide if I will accept any further deposits. Most of my clients are not interested in sex, and they realize that color can vary and usually not concerned, but want a nice, outgoing, healthy, and beautiful, intelligent poodle. 

If I do not have enough puppies, OR, if I do not have what they want, sex/color, they have an option of a refund, or top of my next list. I have only had one person so far want their deposits returned, some have waited up to two years for the puppy they want.

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build their house before painting it!"


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Same here Terry. Most people who got pups from my current litters have been working up the list for two years. Finally they get their pup. And we require a $400 deposit that is also refunded in the event we do not have what they want, or we will transfer the deposit to the next litter. When people call and I tell them we do not have puppies available, but indicate when our next litters will be, their first reaction is to say "When I see your litter announcement of your web site, I will call you". Well...by then that litter will be all spoken for. So, the only way to be assured of a puppy, is to put a deposit on one as soon as the decision is made what breeder one wants to work with.


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## Marcoislandmom

*Cherie*

I know I waited for your announcement and was too late for this litter. I will be smarter with my second one.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Marcoislandmom said:


> I know I waited for your announcement and was too late for this litter. I will be smarter with my second one.


Awww...I'm sorry. Are you Nilli?


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## Marcoislandmom

*Cherie*

Yes, I am Nili.


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## farleysd

you are right Cherie, I am not sure about your litters, but my litters tend to be small, 5 puppies is about average lately. I bred to a red girl several years back, she had a COI or about 3.5, the puppies were about the same, but she had litters of 4 and 5 and from that point on her daughters, grandaughters, and so on have had small litters. Requests fill up quickly.

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

farleysd said:


> you are right Cherie, I am not sure about your litters, but my litters tend to be small, 5 puppies is about average lately. I bred to a red girl several years back, she had a COI or about 3.5, the puppies were about the same, but she had litters of 4 and 5 and from that point on her daughters, grandaughters, and so on have had small litters. Requests fill up quickly.
> 
> Terry
> Farleys D Standard
> "One must first build a house before painting it!"


Well, we had eight and four this time, and seventeen deposits. All but two stayed on for the next litter which will not be born until October, and five of them are spoken for. The ones who went elsewhere had lost dogs and needed to fill the hole in their hearts soon. So, very important to do the homework, speak to breeders, choose who you like, and get a deposit on a puppy. I hate to think of people so intent on a puppy, they go with a breeder who is going to be impossible to work with or is breeding sickly pups.


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## Tink

The breeder and her co-breeder have several pups that I have talked to her about. She doesn't have a waiting list for the dogs that are available.


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## Tink

I had thought things were going better this week. The breeder did contact my references and that we could move on to selecting a puppy. She promised to contact me several times this week but failed to do so. I tried to contact her by phone and email but did not receive any reply. 

I'm really frustrated that she is holding $800 for a puppy that is ready to be placed and she isn't contacting me or returning my messages.


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## Marcoislandmom

Perhaps one of the more experienced breeders on this site could chime in with suggestions. 

Not making excuses for this breeder not answering, however if the pups are a few weeks away from delivery, there are a lot of things that are happening such as vet checks, etc.

I personally would be very concerned.


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## Tink

One of the dogs is 8 months old. I know the other one is at least 4 months old.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well...we have had other threads on here similar to this where the breeder was simply run off their feet because it was the height of show season. Hopefully this is all that is going on with your breeder. We have had other threads where something was definitely something amiss. I would try to contact her mid week in case it is shows that are causing this confusion. Thursdays and Fridays are grooming and travelling days, Saturday and Sunday are the shows, Monday and Tuesday are spent bathing and unpacking, then it begins all over again. So, try giving her a call on Wednesday. If that doesn't work, let's try to think of something else.


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## Marcoislandmom

Thanks, Cherie, for chiming in. I have not personally had this experience in my many years (I'm old) of owning pet and show dogs. 

Tink, one thing I would not do is let this string out too long. If, as you stated, this is a well respected breeder on this site, I am surprised he/she has two dogs of that age just waiting around for an owner. Most breeders can place dogs into their waiting lists since there are a lot of potential puppy owners who would be happy NOT to wait too long.


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## Tink

Thanks Marcoislandmom,

I really don't want this to drag on any longer than it has. She came so highly recommended here that I didn't use any common sense. I'm not sure I have any recourse.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tink said:


> Thanks Marcoislandmom,
> 
> I really don't want this to drag on any longer than it has. She came so highly recommended here that I didn't use any common sense. I'm not sure I have any recourse.


Yes, you have recourse. If you put a deposit on a dog, and she does not want to give you the time of day, then you can ask for your money back. Keep a record of all communications and lack thereof. But I do suggest giving her the benefit of the doubt, and trying her in the middle of the week before you worry too much. Have you tried phoning? Perhaps her internet is down.


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## Tink

Yes, I have phoned and left messages several times this week.


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## Poodle Lover

Hi Tink,
I am sorry you are having such a difficult time with the breeder. I am always for giving someone the benefit of a doubt, but when does that become too much of a benefit.  Just because the breeder is well respected and reputable, doesn't excuse this type of behavior (barring health issues or god forbid death). 

I am sorry you have to go through such an emotional roller coaster. As far as recourse, you certainly have one. I just hope you won't need to use it. 

Good luck to you and hope you get your puppy or your money back.


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## CT Girl

I would cut the breeder a little slack. My breeder was also not good with emails and sending pictures (not very tech savy). The important thing is if they are good with dogs. You can be a good breeder but not a good seller - sending lots of cute puppy pictures ect. I don't know if having two somewhat older dogs is a concern. My breeder had a tiny toy which he actually tried to sell to me. He had lots of people that wanted him but he did not want them. He told me he would not put that dog in a home with children and he wanted experienced dog people and he also wanted to know if kids or other dogs would visit what would you do with the dog ect. He was waiting till he found just the right person. This may be the case with her two dogs. It also may be a busy time for her. What question do you have that needs an immediate reply? If a person has built up a reputation as a good breeder it is unlikely that you will have a problem. She (or he) is probably swamped or not good with communication after all things are progressing - your references were checked. I know I was exhausted just hearing my breeder's schedule but happy that it was all dog centered activities.


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## CMPB

Keithsomething said:


> Whose the breeder Tink?
> 
> I wouldn't give them a deposit before they checked references, if they have that many "puppy orders" I think you'd probably be better off going to a more reputable breeder...I also wouldn't ever give a deposit BEFORE a litter of puppies is born, what happens if what you want isn't born or you decide that you don't want to work with that breeder? You've lost your deposit and maybe the chance of going to another breeder if you're wasting time with this one


My breeder asked for a deposit before the pups were born but only after confirming pregnancy and approximate quantity of pups. Our contract states she'll return the deposit if we are unable to choose a puppy based on the conditions for sending the deposit (sex, colour, ect). 

If the breeder is reputable and respected you should be fine.


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## outwest

What ever happened with Tink and her pup? Did she get the puppy?


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## Toodle

Tink said:


> I had thought things were going better this week. The breeder did contact my references and that we could move on to selecting a puppy. She promised to contact me several times this week but failed to do so. I tried to contact her by phone and email but did not receive any reply.
> 
> I'm really frustrated that she is holding $800 for a puppy that is ready to be placed and she isn't contacting me or returning my messages.


I understand your frustration and hope things are better now and you managed to move forward on aquiring your puppy.

I experienced some frustrations and concern myself when recently I suddenly could not contact my breeder in any way (email & phone) after I transferred the deposit to her. She asked for 10%, I went ahead to transfer 50% (since I felt it was a confirmed situation anyway). Then, I did not hear from her for about a week! Left messages, sent text messages, emailed... Got no reply.
Then finally, called one day and her partner replied and said that they were away for a show. Whew... what a relief. 

Later, some things came up that we have to resolve. She was also 1 of those reputable breeder but were not tech or internet savvy at all. Wish all breeders have websites and are able to send updated photos of pups from time to time. I almost chose puppy from breeders like that and they are a breeze to work with, pity I was the one on wait list for that pup and someone else confirmed it before it came to my turn.

Try calling again and if need be, visit (if they are not too far from you).
Wish you all the best and a wondeful puppy with the sweetest temperament.


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## Tink

*Still Waiting*

I have talked to the breeder several times through email and phone. She is slow to respond but has contacted me. 

When I gave her my deposit there were several puppies available to choose from however there was a disagreement with a co-owner and these puppies were no longer available. She currently has a litter that I may receive a puppy from. If all puppies are spoken for she has another litter planned for later this summer.

I'm still frustrated that I thought that I was purchasing a puppy that was ready for their new home instead of being put on a waiting list.


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## Toodle

Tink said:


> I have talked to the breeder several times through email and phone. She is slow to respond but has contacted me.
> 
> When I gave her my deposit there were several puppies available to choose from however there was a disagreement with a co-owner and these puppies were no longer available. She currently has a litter that I may receive a puppy from. If all puppies are spoken for she has another litter planned for later this summer.
> 
> I'm still frustrated that I thought that I was purchasing a puppy that was ready for their new home instead of being put on a waiting list.


That's a bummer. If you want to, can you ask for the deposit back and get your pup from another breeder?
I noticed that there are quite a few Standard Poodle Breeders here with BEAUTIFUL poodles.
Hope you get your loving pup soon. Best of luck.


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## Tink

A female puppy has become available and will be ready for its new home in a couple of weeks. She is cream with brown pigment but will be the full $2000 pet price. The breeder has told me that she is has a great personality and is a confident girl.

While the brown pigment does not bother me at all...I understand that the price is very high for a puppy with this fault. We have no plans to show this dog. She will be a companion and possibily an agility dog. I'm having trouble deciding if I should take this puppy or wait for another litter.


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## wickednag

I am not a breeder and have never had a bred dog in my life so I don't know what the prodigal is but as a buyer, you should have your money back and I would be going after getting my deposit back through small claims court. I have inquired on pups. Knew at times there would be a waiting list. When the litter you put the deposit on was unavailable your deposit should have been refunded. That is my honest opinion. Your breeder should have apologized and graciously refunded your money. If you are getting a pup with a fault it should be discounted... 

I would be speaking volumes about this treatment so no one else was put in the same situation as I was. Talk about unethical behavior.


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## Olie

I am stickler for people not following through with what they say. 

I am fine with the deposit process.

It is one thing to try and contact someone if they are busy or something came up....thats forgiveable but its another when someone says they are going to do something and do not -much less do this a couple of times and then the orignal plan changes.

Health and temperament are of utmost however if I am going to spend $2,000 on a pet I would like the original agreement or newly negotiated agreement that is in the best interest of ME the puppy buyer. This is something any breeder should be doing UNLESS all these possibilities were made clear up front and according to what you have shared they were not. 

Things happen and people are human however this is a business transaction at the end of the day and an emotional one at that..... go with your gut on this.


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## Carley's Mom

Tink, there is no way I would pay $2000 dollars for that pup. The brown should make that pup cost less IMHO. I would get a much better price or wait.


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## wickednag

I would like to know who this well respected breeder is as I beg to differ with that term.


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## Poodle Lover

Wow!!! The more I learn about "reputable" breeders, the more disappointed I get. There is no way would I be getting this puppy at full price. After all that you've been through with this breeder she owes you an apology, a nice discount on the puppy (especially because of the brown nose) or your deposit back. I hate threatening law suits, but in this case I would seriously consider small claims court. Don't let her intimidate you or bully you into getting the puppy that may not be your dream dog. If you have to pay $2,000 for a dog, you should get exactly what you want. This is going to be your family member for the next 10 to 14 years, don't settle for anything less than what you want.

Sometimes I think that the big name/big time breeder's think that we should just fall at their feet and kiss the ground that they walk on if they choose to place one of their puppies with us. I guess we mere mortals should be honored to have anything that they throw our way, at a premium price, regardless of faults and be happy. Frankly, I don't think so.


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## 2719

wickednag said:


> I would like to know who this well respected breeder is as I beg to differ with that term.


Yes I sometimes I think the term "well respected" breeder should be replaced with "well known" breeder. Just because they may have a lot of champions and have been breeding for years...this does not mean they are ethical.

This is how a "Well known" breeder sold her creams a few years back.

New puppies born July 16, **** - Browns and RARE BROWN-PIGMENTED CREAMS. Two cream males and 2 cream females still available. These puppies have chocolate brown lips, noses, eyerims and pads. Ready to go September 10, ****.


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## Tink

I don't think the breeder is unethical however I have been frustrated. I signed a puppy agreement for a pet quality dog for $2000. When the deposit was given it was for one of several puppies that were available at that time. Several of these puppies were co-owned and there was a disagreement between owners and the dogs were no longer available. I asked for my deposit back but it was not returned. The agreement did not state that the deposit would be returned if I didn't take one of these dogs. I do think it would have been the right thing to do. 

The brown pigment would make this puppy pet quality but from what everyone has been saying this dog should be discounted more than other pet quality dogs. I have talked to the breeder and the price stands at $2000.


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## outwest

My breeder called me to tell me about the litter I was waiting for. I asked her again about giving a deposit because I know she has a waiting list for black puppies. She said she never takes deposits. I understand breeders asking for deposits and don't have an issue with it (thus asking her if she wanted one). 

I was thinking about it again. If a person gives a nonrefundable deposit they are locked into getting a puppy from that person. If you give a deposit on an expensive dog before they are even born, how can you know they will be what you want? 

$2000 is a normal price for a nice, purebred puppy, except for $2000 Tink should get exactly what she wants and nothing less. She shouldn't expect perfect conformation in a pet, but she can expect correct pigment for that and a healthy puppy. Someone else will want a cream puppy with a brown nose and pay full price, probably someone who isn't as educated as Tink it. I don't think there is anything wrong with a brown nose on a pet poodle, I just have trouble with her paying full price for it. 

My breeder is sending me an agreement in the mail for one of these pups that I am to read and sign if I feel comfortable. Still, I do not send a deposit back. All money is paid at the time the puppy is picked up. I like this way of doing things because if something happens or the pup grows three eyes, I am not locked in until I see, play with and evaluate the puppy myself. 

What is the reason for the deposits? Like I said, I don't have an issue with them in theory and am surprised my breeder isn't asking for one, but why hassle with a deposit?

On the other hand...it is ONLY a brown nose! Is the puppy adorable? Is it the sex you want? Is she healthy? Do you like the sire and dam? After all...it is just a nose.


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## wickednag

truelovepoodles said:


> Yes I sometimes I think the term "well respected" breeder should be replaced with "well known" breeder. Just because they may have a lot of champions and have been breeding for years...this does not mean they are ethical.
> 
> This is how a "Well known" breeder sold her creams a few years back.
> 
> New puppies born July 16, **** - Browns and RARE BROWN-PIGMENTED CREAMS. Two cream males and 2 cream females still available. These puppies have chocolate brown lips, noses, eyerims and pads. Ready to go September 10, ****.



That is horrible... the very rate.... undesirables if I don't call them rare pups...:ahhhhh:


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## wickednag

Outwest here is my problem with Tink's breeder. She put a deposit down on a pup that was already born and she should have been able to choose from. From there, no pup and a deposit on a litter not born yet. Yes I think a brown pigmented poodle is ok IF you are paying less and expecting less. Not a correct litter... shame shame shame on her breeder.


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## starpoodle

Tink, in my search for a toy poodle I contacted several reputable breeders and the price was $1500 for a pet quality puppy. Even taking into account variable costs depending on breeder and area of the country, $2000 for a brown-pigmented cream is too high. I personally wouldn't pay it. I'm begining to wonder if some breeders (NOT all or even most, by any means!) try to sell puppies with faults to less-experienced pet families. See the link below for more thoughts on that subject. Post #27 and on caught my attention:

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/7913-breeders-nj-3.html

My feeling is there is no substitute for common sense, your own instincts, recommendations from people who have obtained puppies from the breeder, and research research research.


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## Carley's Mom

Maybe I just don't have as much money as some of you. But if I even considered paying $2000 for a dog it would have to be the real deal. It would have to be everything I ever dreamed ... I would not want a single fault, much less a brown nose! Most people , even the ones with little knowledge about poodles dislike a brown nose.

I know you have waited a long time and you just want your puppy, but I think you would regret over paying , no matter how sweet she turns out to be.

I would demand my depoist back and go to a differant breeder. The fact that she even thought you would take this puppy for that price would end our relationship.


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## peppersb

Tink said:


> I don't think the breeder is unethical however I have been frustrated. I signed a puppy agreement for a pet quality dog for $2000. When the deposit was given it was for one of several puppies that were available at that time. Several of these puppies were co-owned and there was a disagreement between owners and the dogs were no longer available. I asked for my deposit back but it was not returned. The agreement did not state that the deposit would be returned if I didn't take one of these dogs. I do think it would have been the right thing to do.


I have not seen the contract that you signed, but if the contract says that you "gave a deposit for one of several puppies that were available at the time" then the breeder had an obligation to deliver one of those puppies. If she failed to do so (for whatever reason), then the very least that she should do is give you your deposit back. Taking deposits for puppies that are available and failing to deliver as promised does not sound like ethical behavior to me.


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## Tink

The puppy agreement did not state that it was for a specific puppy or one of several that were available at the time the deposit was made.


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## outwest

Oh, Tink. I just want to give you a hug. All you want is a nice, healthy, sweet puppy for a pet. You are willing to pay for that. This shouldn't be so hard, it should be joyous. You should be running to the pet store buying little toys and beds and food not worrying over whether to take this puppy or not and worrying you might be overpaying. Why isn't she giving you first dibs seeing as how your original puppy was never given to you and instead offering a brown nosed cream for full price? She doesn't seem ethical to me at ALL. sigh.

Even if you get your deposit back, there is a big chance you will wait just as long for another breeders puppy. 

Can you go see this little puppy? Maybe her eyes will melt your heart and all this worry won't matter. Within a week of taking the puppy home, all of this strife should be forgotten.


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## starpoodle

From the AKC Breed Standard:

"Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog." 

According to the standard, the "wrong color" nose for the dog's coat is considered a *"major fault." *Does the cream puppy have brown pigment on lips and eye-rims, too? A puppy that starts out with incorrect pigment is different than a dog whose nose fades during winter and/or over time.

If you like the cream puppy, I would try hard to negotiate the $2k cost. It's not right that the breeder is trying to sell you a pup with a *major fault* for full price.


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## Tink

Yes the puppy does have brown eye rims and lips. I have tried to talk to the breeder about price but she is firm on the $2000. She said that she doesn't discount her puppies.


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## wickednag

Well, than unless you don't care than take her to court and get your deposit back. She might not discount her puppies but a fault is a fault and I don't like this breeder... grrr!


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## Toodle

Tink said:


> Yes the puppy does have brown eye rims and lips. I have tried to talk to the breeder about price but she is firm on the $2000. She said that she doesn't discount her puppies.


Dear Tink, from what I have read. You seem like such a sweet and kind person who just want her own puppy to love. I hope that soon, all these frustrations will be over with and you will get a puppy that will full you with lots of joy and happiness.
I am wondering... How much was the deposit? It seems that it might be possible to get a pet quality pup for around $1500.. and, if the deposit you gave + $1500 is = or less than $2000. It may be better to start looking elsewhere, as this breeder really does not sound honest our ethical. So, how can anyone believe anything else that he might be saying about the puppy?
Maybe someone on this forum can recommend Tink to an ethical breeder with or expecting a litter?


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## Olie

Tink, although I agree the breeder appears not professional with the bad communication BUT as you confirmed a couple posts back the contract said a pet puppy at $2000.00 so with that said I believe you had $800 ?? down for the deposit so if you walk away you are out the money...

If this breeder tests and you have no issue in regards to ethics than its your choice to move forward. You are still going to get a puppy that will likely be adorable. And look around there are brown noses in creams everywhere. I don't think it looks awful at all! It's just not black. AND I have not seen any breeders really touch on this but my understanding is pet quality can have multiple faults....mismarks, gay tails etc and I have not heard of breeders giving a discount for this. Maybe I am wrong....again look around even the nicest of breeders can throw these faults. 

I still hate that it appears you were mislead but at the end of the day its a contract and seems the breeder is sticking to it. 

I do hope you get a wonderful pup!


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## outwest

Olie, I am inclined to agree with you. I agree that a brown nose doesn't look that bad. I am inclined to think she should get the puppy if it is only a nose issue. It won't have a thing to do with what kind of pet she has or how cute she is. I think tear stains on a light dog can be more disfiguring than a brown nose and even those a person gets used to.

I also am not privi to the real cost of a toy. I know they don't have many in a litter and it is much touchier with their breeding than with a standard. It wouldn't surprise me if $2000 WAS a pet price for a nicely bred toy poodle and any show toys would be much more. 

Cream poodles can be really pretty, especially if they have orangey ears.  Unfortunately, it is supply and demand. It seems lots of people have trouble finding a toy poodle-demand must exceed supply.

I think she should get the pup unless her heart is set on a black.

As far as a breeder giving a discount, I sold an all white boxer (disqualifying fault) for a token price to a nice family. I couldn't kill the baby like other breeders were doing at that time. She turned out to be a wonderful pet for them.


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## Tink

Tear stains are a big concern for me. I don't want to give a dog a low dose antibiotic product like Angle Eyes for long periods of time. However tear stains really spoil some cute poodle faces. This would be my reason for choosing a black poodle. 

I don't mind brown noses. I have a brown and white parti lowchen. She has brown pigment, which is correct for her coloring, and I think it is cute. I'm not sure I like it with cream but it may grow on me. 

I haven't made a decision on what to do. The options are, take the cream with brown nose or wait for next breeding.


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## kdias

My heart is aching for you. You obviously did your research on the breeder & the way you've been treated is inexcusable. I can understand life happens, but this is still a business transaction & you've been treated wrong for way too long. This should be one your most happy experiences, instead of one filled with so much frustration. I hope you get your puppy soon so you can get on with life. I'm not sure how this breeder has earned a reputable reputation, but there is much better out there. Not only should you expect good communication & support through the purchase process, you should be able to expect that for the life of your poodle.


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## Carley's Mom

Doesn't look like you will be getting any of the $800. back...sigh I would have a heart to heart talk with the breeder and wait for the next litter. I still think if you pay that much you should get what you want and not settle for less.


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## wickednag

I think she could get her deposit back but it would involve small claims court. She put a deposit down on a litter that WAS already here, not an upcoming litter. The problem is that even if you win in court than you may never see your money. 

I think I would love a cream puppy with a brown nose but not for that kind of money. I am so glad I have Hazel.. she can have the brown nose and not have it be a fault. 

Tink, if you can't get your deposit back without going to court, I would wait for a black pup. I love black poodles in any size. If I had been color shopping, I would have looked high and low for a black standard. I ended up with a cafe au lait...different but she is beautiful to me anyway....


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## Tink

Here is a picture of the puppy.


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## starpoodle

Will the puppy's nose stay brown or will it fade to pink? If so, that may be another consideration.


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## Tink

I'm not sure. I have no experience with poodles only lowchen. My brown pigmented chocolate and white lowchen has not faded at all.


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## Tink

Is brown pigment really a reason for a pet to be discounted over other faults... Such as "bad black", structural issues, improper size, bite? What faults make a dog pet quality and what faults make a dog discounted pet quality?


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## outwest

Tink...it's a nose. My show line white standard was born with a black nose. By 5 years old her nose was half pink. I was annoyed, but there was no way in hell I was going to call the breeder and demand my money back. She was a pet. There are no guarantee's the pups nose won't turn pink, but she is a toy. It will be a very tiny, tiny nose!  She will likely be adorable. I kind of think everyone, including myself, are making too big a deal over this nose. It happens. You're going to spay her. She is going to live long and be a wonderful friend to you. I do think full price is pushing the bounderies of ethics for this breeder, but again, it is a nose for heavens sake.

Unfortunately, you signed a contract without thinking it through enough, but it is done, so please don't beat yourself up over it. The breeder is someone maybe you won't want to ever deal with again (not would I), but it doesn't mean this is not a great little puppy. We have all done things we regreted, but it is not a disaster by any means!

You really have three options:

1) walk away and lose $800. 
2) wait for another litter where there are no guarantees you will find anything different
3) take this puppy and forget about the nose

If you do decide to take this puppy, please post pictures of her lovely self. I notice you removed her picture and you have NOTHING to be concerned about. I am sure she is cute as a button!


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## Tink

I know it is just a nose. I'm just trying to understand why a lot of people have responded that I should receive a discount over pet quality price. I am trying to understand what faults are great enough that a breeder should ask for less than their pet price. Many have said that there is no way they would pay normal pet price for a dog with brown pigment.


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## wickednag

Because most breeders discount for a fault. My gorgeous Hazel had a umbilical hernia fixed by the vet at no cost when we had her spayed. She was discounted for her "fault" Quite a bit actually  I also choose not to get her with her papers since they were limited registration anyway. I paid $200 for my standard with her hernia. 

Now I understand that she is buying a pet and is paying pet price but it should still IMO be discounted when it has what is considered to be a major fault by the AKC. If you want the puppy than get it and love her. Myself, would have ran at the pet price of $2000 but that is me...Where I am located that would get you a show quality dog...or at least I am assuming it would 

Let us know what you decide to do Tink.


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## Tink

Outwest,

You are missing the point. I am not beating myself up over the contract I signed. I am just trying to understand the comments that make a brown pigmented dog worth much less than a pet quality dog with other faults.

I took down the picture of the puppy because I did not take the picture and I hadn't asked permission to post it.


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## Carley's Mom

Tink, I think that is up to the buyer. I would not pay that much for a white poodle with the brown, a bad black would not bother me as much. Each person has their own thoughts and feelings about what they like and don't like. Carley was discounted on "age", lots of people would not dream of $800 for a dog almost 7 years old. I wanted a older dog and did not mind. She was everything I wanted. Sure I wish she had been 3 or 4 instead of 6 and a half. But I don't regret it. If the brown doesn't bother you , get it. I am sure she will be a wonderful, loving dog. Be sure to let us know what you decide. I am invested now. lol


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## starpoodle

Tink said:


> You are missing the point. I am not beating myself up over the contract I signed. I am just trying to understand the comments that make a brown pigmented dog worth much less than a pet quality dog with other faults.


I think it would depend what the faults were. I understand the breeder saying that she doesn't "discount" her pups - I don't care for that term, either - but there's another way to look at it. Does the breeder sell show quality poodles for more money than pet quality? If yes, why? At least some of the reasons probably have to do with physical differences between show and pet poodles.

If you don't care about the incorrect pigment and don't mind paying the money, and everything else about the pup pleases you, you should do what makes you happy.


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## outwest

Tink said:


> Outwest,
> 
> You are missing the point. I am not beating myself up over the contract I signed. I am just trying to understand the comments that make a brown pigmented dog worth much less than a pet quality dog with other faults.
> 
> I took down the picture of the puppy because I did not take the picture and I hadn't asked permission to post it.


I believe most/many breeders would discount for a puppy with a major conformation fault. For some reason this one is not, probably because she can easily sell the puppy to someone else. That doesn't make her right. I am sorry i missed the point. 

Hazel was purchased as a puppy for less than an old rescue here and not much more than a dog from the spca with vaccines and neutering, so you can't really compare to that price (we should all be so lucky). All you can do is find out the going rate in your area (and $2000 could easily be the going rate).

I posted a picture or two I removed for the same reasons, so that is understandable. 

Whatever you decide, it will be the right decision. Please let us know!


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## BorderKelpie

As far as the brown pigment, you're not showing or breeding anyway. If the color doesn't bother you, don't worry about it. I wouldn't expect to pay substancially less for incorrect coloring, but for a structural defect - yes. If the puppy is healthy, happy and well made in every other way, color means nothing.


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## wickednag

Very interesting thread and it is nice to see all the opinions. Tink I am excited for you to get a poodle. I know I am thrilled with my girl!


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## Tink

Thanks for all of the opinions. I am going to see the puppy next Thursday.

I have looked at poodle pedigree.com and her line is all black for at least 5 generations. I don't know anything about color genetics but is it odd that this litter had 2 cream pups and one black?


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## Carley's Mom

That little brown nose is going to steal your heart... be warned. LOL Congrats!


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## peppersb

Tink said:


> I have looked at poodle pedigree.com and her line is all black for at least 5 generations. I don't know anything about color genetics but is it odd that this litter had 2 cream pups and one black?


Cream is a recessive gene. So if a poodle has a black gene and a cream gene, it will be black. Poodles that have 2 black genes will be black and cannot produce cream pups (no cream gene to pass on). So if the parents of this litter were both black, then they must have both carried the cream gene. In that case, there is a 25% chance that a pup will get a cream gene from both parents. With 2 cream genes, they are cream.


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## wickednag

Carley's Mom said:


> That little brown nose is going to steal your heart... be warned. LOL Congrats!


Yep and we will be blessed with pictures soon after I hope!


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## starpoodle

Carley's Mom said:


> That little brown nose is going to steal your heart... be warned. LOL Congrats!


I think you're right.  

Good luck Tink!


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## outwest

Good luck Tink! I have only once been able to walk away from a litter and that was because I swore the puppies were not purebred, even though the breeder said they were.  I think that dam got out the back gate at some point. 

I am looking forward to welcoming your new puppy (whenever that may be).


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## Toodle

Breeder's ethics, etc aside. 
A Cream poodle puppy with brown nose will melt your heart. If you are not showing or breeding then, really... why not? I met someone with a mismarked cream poodle with brown nose and brown ears, totally adorable and irresistible! 100% unique.
All the best, Tink. If you like the puppy's personality and looks, then.. At the end of the day, that's what counts! Looking forward to pictures


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## Tink

I did get the cream puppy with liver pigment. She has a great personality and gets along with my two lowchens.

I went to vet with the breeder for the puppy's check up. The vet specializes in show dogs and in addition to a health check up she went over the dog's structure for conformation. The puppy would be pick of the litter if it wasn't for liver pigment.

She does have bad tear stains that I'm not sure what to do with. I have been washing her face twice a day. My vet does not want her to take Angel Eyes because it is an antibiotic and it may stain her permeant teeth.


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## wickednag

Tink said:


> I did get the cream puppy with liver pigment. She has a great personality and gets along with my two lowchens.
> 
> I went to vet with the breeder for the puppy's check up. The vet specializes in show dogs and in addition to a health check up she went over the dog's structure for conformation. The puppy would be pick of the litter if it wasn't for liver pigment.
> 
> She does have bad tear stains that I'm not sure what to do with. I have been washing her face twice a day. My vet does not want her to take Angel Eyes because it is an antibiotic and it may stain her permeant teeth.


Pictures???


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## starpoodle

Congratulations, Tink! Yes, please post pictures...and what's her name?


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## Carley's Mom

Congrats! We now need pictures! I am happy for you!


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## RileysMommy

YAY!! And, yes, pictures please!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Congratulations!! Wishing you a long and happy, healthy life together!


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## petitpie

Congratulations on your new puppy!


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## Tink

DSC_0001 by [url=http://www

I can't believe how hard it is to get a picture of a squirmy puppy. I'll keep trying to get some better pictures


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## Marcoislandmom

Tink said:


> DSC_0001 by
> 
> I can believe how hard it is, wait, it gets even more challenging. Congratulations. What a pretty puppy.


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## petitpie

Your puppy is adorable!


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## outwest

So glad you worked through things and feel good about her! Tear stains can be an issue. There isn't a whole lot you can do about them. If you wipe the eyes once a day, often the stain aren't as noticeable when you shave their faces. 

Congratulations! She looks pretty cute to me!


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## Tink

She finally got a name, Pearl. I have been washing her face at least twice a day and I have read everything I can about tear stains. Lots of myths on what will clear it up. I'm sure the antibiotics work but I'm not going to consider this until she is an adult. My vet doesn't think there is a serious problem but I will probably take her to an ophthalmologist just to be sure.

I really like the brown nose, probably because I already have a brown nosed dog. I wish she didn't have tear stains but she is a great little dog.


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## petitpie

I love the name "Pearl" for her, and it fits her well!


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## Clicker

Congratulations Tink! Pearl is a beautiful little girl. Wishing you many happy & healthy years!


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## momofthree

What a cutie, and I love the name Pearl! Congratulations on your new little girl!


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## SarainPA

So glad it all worked out ok....and what a cutie! Enjoy


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## starpoodle

Pearl is a pretty, very fitting name!


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## Toodle

Tink said:


> DSC_0001 by
> 
> Congrats, Tink!! She's a cutie... honestly, her colours are beautiful! Those ears <3


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