# Moved to raw, vomit/regurgitate directly after eating?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I've not come across this myself, but I wonder if it could be because she is eating too quickly? Perhaps pieces that are too big for her to bolt might help? A whole chicken quarter might be big enough. I would also try giving the food time to come up to room temperature, in case the chill is a factor (although dogs usually seem fine even with food that is still frozen).

If she is not eating anything, and not peeing/pooing normally, or if she is lethargic or off colour, I would also consider the possibility of a blockage, which could need veterinary attention. Check the symptoms of bloat, and watch her carefully


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I second what FJM said. First make sure she is not having a blockage, bloat, etc. There are also some medical conditions that would cause a dog to repeatedly regurgitate food. Has she had any issues with regurgitation prior to a raw diet?

Can you explain exactly what the regurgitation is like? Regurgitation would imply that she is likely bringing up the entire meal as it was eaten, immediately after swallowing?

IF medical conditions are ruled out and this is diet related, there are lots of possible causes. Too much bone? Inappropriate sized bone? Gulping? Too rich of meat (liver and heart) too soon into the diet can = digestive upset.


Okay, so, #1: How are stools? This will clue us into which possible causes are most likely.

Next, liver and heart are VERY rich. Liver is an organ meat and many would recommend that you not introduce liver into the diet until your dog has been adequately introduced to the raw diet. 

Now, are you feeding appropriate sized raw meaty bones? Thighs, drumsticks and wings are way too small for most standard poodles. I would not feed anything smaller than a chicken leg quarter or a chicken back, especially in this case. If your dog crunching these at all or swallowing whole? If a dog swallows something that is inappropriately sized, they will "bring it back up" and try again. 

Are you feeding too much bone? This can result in digestive upset and regurgitating pieces of bone several hours later. Also, some dogs will regurgitate bone early in the AM during the initial phases of the raw diet while the PH in their digestive system adapts to digesting whole bone rather than processed Krapple. 
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FWIW - If this were my dog, I would have introduced the raw diet by feeding a chicken back with all visible fat and skin stripped for breakfast on day 1. A stripped chicken quarter for dinner on day 1. Continue to alternate chicken backs and quarters until stools have been firm (but not too hard) consistently for a few days. Slowly begin to leave on fat and skin. If stools were bordering too firm, then slowly add some boneless chicken meat to establish a more appropriate bone/meat ratio. 

Then I'd introduce a new protein each week. There are so many ways to introduce the diet and to progress with the diet. But I have found the above way of introducing to work for all 3 of my dogs.


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

Thanks for the speedy reply fjm.

She is fine with frozen as you suggest... In fact she first ate the pieces frozen and was fine with them with no regurgitation. 

I did wonder if it was due to trying to inhale the pieces and I think I can correlate that she didn't vomit when I kept a firm hold on the end of a drumstick until she had severed it into pieces.

She thankfully is still eating as I just now washed off what she brought back up to remove any stomach juices and re-fed her them, which she re-chewed into smaller chunks and is not contentedly laying on the sofa.

Bloat or blockages are off the cards too I suspect as she has been peeing and pooping regular ever since the switch with no lethargy just the regurgitation, but to keep my mind at rest I'll keep a close eye on her.


Edit to answer CM...

Stools: small about the size of your thumb, firm with no odour, and no signs of constipation, also twice a day as normal but half the size compared to what they were pre-raw diet.

Liver: Poppy is used to raw liver as she has been getting it as a treat consistently since she was about 6 month old. we did encounter the first time she had liver how rich it is! 

Regurgitation is within minutes of eating if that helps any.

Thanks you both for your thoughts. I am hoping its nothing more than what fjm said. too small a chunk size and eating it too quickly.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rikkia said:


> Thanks for the speedy reply fjm.
> 
> She is fine with frozen as you suggest... In fact she first ate the pieces frozen and was fine with them with no regurgitation.
> 
> ...


Okay, then I suggest feeding chicken quaters instead of drumsticks. Or, if you must feed a drumstick (perhaps a quarter is more than a meal for her?) then hold onto the other end until she learns to crunch into managable sizes for herself. All dogs will "crunch and swallow" rather than chew, but some take a while to learn how to "smartly" do this so that they don't have to regurgitate and try again.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

From what you say, it does sound as if she is bolting her food. Bigger pieces, or holding onto one end, should help!


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

Delayed reaction...

fjm I think so too, I did suspect bolting it too quickly was the case but being the first foray into 100% raw I didn't want to risk not asking first. Just been to the shop bought three whole chickens. We shall cut the breast meat off for ourselves for dinner and let Poppy have the remaining carcasses.

I would much prefer her to eat the drumsticks, wings & thighs as we can source them at a price that is much cheaper than her kibble food was, however I suspect it'll be better in the long term if she learns to chew more like a lady, on a carcass, than eat like a street rat that's never been fed.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rikkia said:


> Delayed reaction...
> 
> fjm I think so too, I did suspect bolting it too quickly was the case but being the first foray into 100% raw I didn't want to risk not asking first. Just been to the shop bought three whole chickens. We shall cut the breast meat off for ourselves for dinner and let Poppy have the remaining carcasses.
> 
> I would much prefer her to eat the drumsticks, wings & thighs as we can source them at a price that is much cheaper than her kibble food was, however I suspect it'll be better in the long term if she learns to chew more like a lady, on a carcass, than eat like a street rat that's never been fed.


Chicken wings and thighs are considered by many to be inappropriate in size for a standard poodle as they are much more of a choking hazard than chicken quarters. For a dog that already has a tendency to gulp smaller items, most veteran raw feeders would suggest you avoid smaller bone-in items with your dog based on the gulping tendency. You should be able to find chicken quarters very inexpensive, you may need to alternate where you are looking. Also, it is typically the most inexpensive to buy an entire chicken and cut it up into quarters. With a pair of poultry shears it's unbelievably easy to quarter a chicken.

Dogs do not chew. They crunch and swallow anything that will go down the hatch. Some dogs have a more meticulous tendency and these are the ones that people generally feel comfortable feeding smaller items to, even if it's a larger dog. But for a dog with a tendency to gulp, feeding inappropriately sized bone is awfully risky. The general rule with raw feeding to ensure the least risk of choking is to never feed any RMB that is smaller than the dog's head. It's a little easier to compromise with a chicken quarter which is very difficult to inhale.

Raw feeding is not without its risks. Of those raw feeders who have had issues, generally the issues that occur within a raw diet are owner error: choking from feeding inappropriate sized bone, feeding too much bone resulting in a stomach full of bone chunks, not feeding variety, etc. Is it really worth the risk? To some it may be, but I like to play it safe.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Co op has chickens three for £10 at the moment - and Sainsburys frozen bags of quarters are the cheapest I have found. If you have freezer space DAF (Durham Animal Feeds) are very good, and do chicken carcasses as well as chunks of beef etc- they may have a stockist near you. The DAF lamb ribs are HUGE, and need a hatchet to divide them, but would be a good size for a large dog. RawToGo does DAF foods mail order, but prices have gone up and so has postage, so it is not longer as reasonable that way.

Morrisons are a good source of lamb bones (although with a standard you should be able to source bones from your butcher - my butcher only supplies ones that are too big for my dogs!). Morrisons are also the best source I have found for heart and offal.

Hope that helps!


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

fjm that's very helpful!!

we got 3 whole chickens for £10 at Tesco just now of which poppy has just eaten the ribs and one wing without regurgitating anything! I held onto them both and pulled them out of her mouth as she chewed which possibly helped because I did notice she was trying to pull each bit back as she chomped down on it.

I'll look into some butchers further afield as our local one doesn't appear to offer much in the way of RMB type cuts the focus is more on sausages and burgers 

Morrisons is handy to know for offal and heart too as I was using Asda for them. Hubby suggests I would do better going to Asda 30 or so mins before closing and get the daily meats that are whoopsied and stock up on things that way by buying in bulk whoopsied meats and freezing them till needed. However for now our freezer has 2 compartments of 4 filled with frozen meaty goodness so whoopsied meats will be have to wait.

Changing the subject slightly fjm/cm do either of you have thoughts on a 6 day feeding schedule with one day as a fast?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not convinced of the need for fasting - especially as mine are toys, with the associated risk of hypoglycaemia. It assumes that they gorge the other days, and fasting/gorging feels like a recipe for bloat to me. And even if I was convinced that it might be good for them, I am not sure I could cope with the plaintive and reproachful eyes that would follow me all through the hungry day. One very low calorie day a week is now meant to be good for humans, though - and I doubt I will manage that, either!


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

thanks once again fjm, i'll repost in a day or so on this thread if we seem to be over the hump of regurgitation, fingers crossed that with more aid from me to watch and encourage her to chew her food properly we'll put the regurgitation behind us.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't fast my dogs


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Nor do I. R is just shy of 14mo & an intact male. Raw digest so quickly that occasionally R has nighttime empty stomach wretching. I cannot imagine a whole day fast.


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

*Lengthy delay in replying...*

Hey all, I wanted to be crystal clear that before I replied we had passed her hoovering her food instead of chewing it, then bringing it back up.


I'm pleased to say she no longer regurgitates her dinner!


Poppy did go through a phase of heaving bile type yellow froth occasionally in a morning, we soon pinned that down to hunger as she was only having one meal a day on her raw diet. Yet since being a pup she was used to eating twice a day, so with a slight change to the schedule she no longer heaves at all.

Thanks for all your help!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

That is great that you figured out the problem. Thanks for the update.


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