# Merle



## Mehpenn

Question: knowing Merle isn’t a naturally occurring pattern in Poodles, what are your feelings on solid colored pups out of a Merle patterned parent that has DNA tested pure? 
I know after four or five generations the introduced breed is no longer detected in standard DNA tests, but that pattern does indicate at some point another breed was introduced. I also know that introducing new breeds to a stagnant breed pool isn’t always a bad thing. But I don’t feel that the poodle pool is to that point, especially without careful selection and guidance.


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## MollyMuiMa

I have heard also that a dog carrying an 'outcross' after several generations WILL test as a purebred, but the fact that the merle color is now 'set', is what most people are objecting to, as it is a telltale sign of past impurity. 
My question is.... Will color testing detect this, or do breeders have the chance of this just appearing in a litter at random from a solid colored dog?


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## Mehpenn

MollyMuiMa said:


> I have heard also that a dog carrying an 'outcross' after several generations WILL test as a purebred, but the fact that the merle color is now 'set', is what most people are objecting to, as it is a telltale sign of past impurity.
> My question is.... Will color testing detect this, or do breeders have the chance of this just appearing in a litter at random from a solid colored dog?


That’s a good question. Especially if both parents are recesive carriers of the Merle gene from several generations back.


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## Vita

Mehpenn said:


> ...that pattern does indicate at some point another breed was introduced. I also know that introducing new breeds to a stagnant breed pool isn’t always a bad thing. But I don’t feel that the poodle pool is to that point, especially without careful selection and guidance.


I agree. I was appalled when watching the Crufts dog show and seeing clumsy gait and as though the bone structure in the back and back legs don't match the front legs in those German Shepards and then reading what happened to many of them; that group didn't look the regal, well-proportioned dogs when I grew up. 

I used to have two gorgeous Himalayan cats in the 1980s, and one easily became a champion and the other did well but she was a little too small to make champion. In the 1990s a handful of breeders ruined Himalayans; they lobbied to have them included with Persians, began doing cross-breeds and the end game was dumb Himalayans with flat faces and breathing problems. 

Poodles are fantastic dogs and I'd hate to see them messed up.



MollyMuiMa said:


> My question is.... Will color testing detect this (merle), or do breeders have the chance of this just appearing in a litter at random from a solid colored dog?


These links might answer your questions or help.

Jess Chappell has a research-based site and explanations, and very easy to read charts on what to expect in a breeding between a merle, non-merle, or carrier of the merle gene. Scroll down for charts on Chappell's Merle page: Dog Coat Colour Genetics

This site is by Dr. Sheila Schmutz who worked on gene color coats for decades and developed some of the genetic DNA tests for colors, and there's a section on the Merle genes. Genetics of Coat Color and Type in Dogs

Paw Print Genetics is one of the better labs that also has an explanation and chart, and the M-Locus Merle test. They have a strong preference for a blood test for this. https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/tests/details/171/

After emailing them about a different question on dna and colors I had, a doctor called me! He said they are very customer-focused and friendly and will help with your breeding program. Here's what Paw Print's site says about Merles: 

The M Locus (Merle) coat color test reliably determines if a dog has one of the following genotypes at the M locus:

M/M - This dog carries two copies of M which produces a widespread merle coat color pattern that is mostly white with small patches of normal color. The merle coat color results from random dilution of eumelanin (black pigment) leaving patches of normal coat color within areas of diluted pigmentation. This dog is also considered an affected, "double merle" because M/M dogs occasionally exhibit deafness and ocular defects. This dog will pass on M to 100% of its offspring. Interpretation: Affected, double merle

m/M - This dog carries one copy of M and one copy of m which results in a mild to moderate merle coat color pattern that consists of random patches of normal coat color surrounded by regions of diluted eumelanin (black pigment). This dog will pass on M to 50% of its offspring and m to 50% of its offspring. Interpretation: Merle

m/m - This dog carries two copies of m and does not have a merle coat color. This dog will pass on m to 100% of its offspring. Interpretation: Non-merle 

Lastly, this lab tests for M-Locus Merle (Merle & Cryptic Merle), but I have no idea if poodles have Cryptic Merle genes. Just email them, they'll respond, or ask the other lab, Paw Prints. http://www.animalgenetics.us/Canine/Canine-color/MLocus.asp


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## CharismaticMillie

MollyMuiMa said:


> I have heard also that a dog carrying an 'outcross' after several generations WILL test as a purebred, but the fact that the merle color is now 'set', is what most people are objecting to, as it is a telltale sign of past impurity.
> My question is.... Will color testing detect this, or do breeders have the chance of this just appearing in a litter at random from a solid colored dog?


Merle is dominant, not recessive, which is how we know that it's not a color naturally found in the breed. Therefore, it cannot just randomly show up.


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## Streetcar

Mehpenn said:


> Question: knowing Merle isn’t a naturally occurring pattern in Poodles, what are your feelings on solid colored pups out of a Merle patterned parent that has DNA tested pure?
> I know after four or five generations the introduced breed is no longer detected in standard DNA tests, but that pattern does indicate at some point another breed was introduced. I also know that introducing new breeds to a stagnant breed pool isn’t always a bad thing. But I don’t feel that the poodle pool is to that point, especially without careful selection and guidance.


DNA testing is reliable for parentage. It's amusement when used for breed identification .

There is no excuse for mixing in merle or other breeds, imho; we don't have the issue Dals did. I don't think of Poodles as stagnant, especially after the new UC Davis testing that has come available.


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## ericwd9

The Merle genes are anathema to the practice of breeding for health and vigor. The practice of breeding designer dogs to please aesthetics and misguided ideas of what a given breed "should" look like is an obscenity and is to be discouraged. The ideals of "top" show judges have in many cases diverted a breed from healthy lines to lines that discourage health and vigor. Breeding for traits we find pleasing to the eye is pandering to our ego. I for one would be against any move to breed merle poodles. The standard poodle has already been disfigured by breeding for narrow muzzle and fine legs from the broad muzzle and strong legs of the retriever it once was. Line breeding has seen this dog less healthy in the uSA than it once was and is in other countries.
I am not against the practice of breeding "new breeds". After all, The poodles we all love were bred in this way. People breeding for given traits would avoid health deterioration resulting from given genetic traits in most cases. Fickle humans have bred silly dogs with severe health issues. Let not the poodle become one of those breeds.

Eric.


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## Emeraldfly20

CharismaticMillie said:


> Merle is dominant, not recessive, which is how we know that it's not a color naturally found in the breed. Therefore, it cannot just randomly show up.


I'm only replying to this because I want to clear up your answer. It's partially true. While merle is dominant it will not always show in a coat. Example: a merle dad is bred to an apricot female. All puppies that get a black coat will become merle, however if any puppies are born with a white, cream, red, or apricot coat WILL NOT be merle but can still carry the merle gene. That's because the merle gene cannot effect those coat colors. So the apricot puppy could actually be merle and produce merle puppies. You can see how a breeder breeding for reds or whites could potentially carry this gene for several generations without producing a merle puppy. 
Your welcome


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## PeggyTheParti

For anyone interested in discussing this topic further, here’s a link to the new thread started by @Emeraldfly20:



https://www.poodleforum.com/search/191609/



I’m closing this old thread to avoid any confusion.


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