# Class not so "force free". :(



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I would check your area for other trainers that can get you the certs you need. It's obvious you are not comfortable and I think Lula might pick up on that. I say better safe than sorry. 

You may want to try talking to the trainer first, but if you still don't feel right I say follow your instincts.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh my, I can see why you are not happy. I feel these methods are questionable at best and in your place I would probably opt out of class and look for someone with more positive training methods. Alpha rolling puppies? Yikes! I wish I could clone my teacher. She is very laid back but if you pay attention you learn so much. You don't need to train with her to get the certification, right? Just to take the test? I would be very leery of staying in the class in case you inadvertantly pick up something that is going to mess up your dog. At the very least she is going to pick up a stressed vibe from other dogs whose owners are following this questionable advice.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

You recommended the class to your neighbors in good faith. Just tell them you are not happy with the results and all of you find another class.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Eep, how unsettling! Even if you can be certain that Lula won't be mistreated by having a talk with the trainer, staying is still sending a message to her and the other owners that you're okay with what's going on. And, no, I don't think it's healthy for either of you to be in that setting! I think you'd be justified in getting your money back as this was false advertising. I get sooo frustrated by "fake" trainers like that!! If one wants to use those methods, they can just be honest about it. There are still plenty of dog-owners comfortable with that. I don't see why they want to mislead owners and put them in the situation you're in right now. I think if you leave you will absolutely find another trainer who can help you towards your goals with Lula. Make the choices that feel right to you, and everything always works out. : ) Good luck!


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

well i feel some correcting is ok but that sounds like it sure isnt what you signed up for. ive never heard of a trainer reacting that way for jumping. if you dont feel comfortable id let the trainer know and really this is there training method so if i was you id just find a different one.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I am sure you wouldn't allow any of these correction methods to be used on Lula or Lula would just behave so well that she doesn't even need any major "correction" BUT I wonder how helpful the trainer's advice would be when you need help correcting your pup the non-CM way. 

There should be other CGC evaluators in your area. 
American Kennel Club - Canine Good Citizen Evaluators

You can train Lula to do the 10 CGC test items and go take the test at an AKC dog show. AKC's Canine Good Citizen (CGC) Program - Searchable Calendar

This video is the demo test created by Nickel's trainer.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I would definitely talk with the trainer to see if the method he/she is using is her ONLY method and if it is I would RUN not walk and take your neighbors with you!
Poodles can be stubborn, but they are also tender minded, and too intelligent to be 'abused into obedience'! I've met dogs who's spirits have been crushed by that kind of training and although they complied with their owners orders, they seemed to do so without joy....they seemed 'sad' somehow......


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Find another trainer. You will get more frustrated each time you attend and you are wasting money in something you don't believe in.

I watched the CGC video, I believe Leroy would pass it. He's so weird, he knows when he is being tested, and acts perfect (was great in obedience class). He's even good and calm in big events, festivals, parades. But he cannot manage to meet one random person off the street - he goes nuts!


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

You have to do what you comfortable with. If the class makes you uncomfortable, then you shouldn't put yourself and your dog through that. 

I'd get my money back because that's definabley not as advertised. 

Hopefully there are other trainers in your area utilizing methods you feel comfortable with. Trulydogfriendly.com and petprofessionalguild.com are good places to find vetted force free trainers and they advocate for continuing education for trainers.

Sorry you went through that.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

Thanks, Everyone. 

I'm definitely going to call the trainer & let her know how I'm feeling. I'll see how the conversation goes. 

This situation is further complicated by the fact that the classes are held in a friend/fellow volunteer's doggie daycare/grooming shop. I guess I should also talk with him...

I am getting more upset at each class, it's true. I had hoped that the leash popping was going to be the worst of it... But last night I just couldn't believe it. I kept looking from owner to owner while she was demonstrating the anti-jump & forced down like, "REALLY - are you ok with that?!?". They seemed to be. I seriously considered walking out. 

Thanks again for the support, Everyone. I feel relieved & validated. 


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> You have to do what you comfortable with. If the class makes you uncomfortable, then you shouldn't put yourself and your dog through that.
> 
> *I'd get my money back because that's definabley not as advertised.
> *


This is EXACTLY what I did when I found myself in the same situation after the first puppy training class I took Chagall to. I prevailed in getting my money back (the "easy way," my dh is an attorney!). It wasn't about the money, which I turned around and donated to Poodle Rescue. It was to show trainer that her techniques did not fly with me!! I trained Chagall all by myself and he sailed through is CGC. I would not stay in the class for all the reasons already mentioned. And I would make the trainer "feel" the wallop in the her wallet just to be sure you had her attention. That's just me. I'm old and a bit crusty now.:biggrin: When I was younger I would simply have walked quietly away from the class. But I am now more inclined to stand and fight for those, like innocent pups, who are unable to do so for themselves.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I absolutely agree - run, don't walk, away, take your neighbour with you, and write to the trainer explaining why you are leaving and that you expect a full refund as the classes were not as described, and copy the letter to you friend who runs the establishment. All open and above board. There are, unfortunately, all too may trainers still teaching these methods, but to describe them as Positive or Reward based is either complete ignorance or fraud and misrepresentation - either way, not someone I would trust anywhere near my dog!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

LauraRose said:


> holding one jumper's feet high in the air & squeezing while yelling "off" repeatedly (this dog yelped, then avoided the trainer - shocker)


Awww... that's too bad. 'Coz that's my favourite 'anti-jump' training. And I use it a few times a week at the dog park.

Only 'squeezing'??? . . . nope! No squeezing. Yelling??? RoFL, no. Repeating 'off'??? Yup . . . lots!  

Gently hold the dog's legs. Grab them so that the paws are still visible outside your hands. U've got a good, firm, but gentle grip on them then. 

Then I look them in the eye and and smile at them . . . tell them what a gooooood dog they are . . . talk baby talk to them. Baby talk that includes 'off' a lot. Smiling all the time. 

While you're doing this u can watch their expression turn from 'fun' to 'not so much fun' and then to a desire to get away. As soon as they start to struggle u let them go. Repeating 'off' . . lots. 

If I saw that dogs were noticeably avoiding me I would stop using this method . . with all dogs. I'm not at the dog park for dogs to avoid me... 

A yelp is no big deal with some dogs. Simply their first level of vocal complaint. I've seen mere 'surprise' elicit a yelp.

My rant on 'off' training over . . lol . . it doesn't sound to me like yr comfortable in this class. I'd go with the advice of the rest of the posters and maybe find somewhere else.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Just curious, was force free spelled ForceFree with a "TM" at the end?


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

msminnamouse said:


> Just curious, was force free spelled ForceFree with a "TM" at the end?


I chose this trainer by name referral from aforementioned friend/fellow Dobe rescue volunteer who owns the doggie daycare/grooming locale where classes are held. I never saw any literature or website. 
I initially spoke with the trainer on the phone for 15 minutes or so, asked her many questions & she had all the right answers. (I also phone interviewed 3 others.)

I researched area trainers today & plan to call some tomorrow. I'll be calling the current trainer tomorrow, as well. 

I want training to be a mutually enjoyable time of bonding for Lula & I. 
I read all these books & feel so excited by their methods - I just have to find the classes to match. 
Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, et al - where are you? 

Will update when I have news. 
Thanks again.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

I'm very interested in this trainer:
http://dreamdogsonline.com/aboutus.htm
Though it's a 1 hour drive (each way), I'd make the 12 week commitment. 
This lady is certified by Pat Miller & Victoria Stilwell. How cool is that?

I'll call her tomorrow. 


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

And she took classes with Karen Pryor. I wonder if she does clicker training too.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Great *LauraRose*! I follow the school of thought of asking for an "incompatible behavior," so if my poodle were to jump up (he did come full equipped with springs in his rear legs!) I would ask for, and get, a "sit." I think it's wise that you're considering an "incompatible behavior" here yourself by declining to adhere to a training program for Lula that doesn't feel quite right to you. I learned to actually go and audit a training class _before_ forking over the enrollment fee and signing up. Hope all the support you've received here helps you feel more comfortable with the action you'll be taking.:thumb:


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

Well I called the current/former trainer. I told her I've been uncomfortable in class & feel bad for inviting my neighbors. She was quite rude. I asked for a refund. She's sending one, prorated. 
Now to call my friend who owns the class location. :-/

A friend of mine (who has 2 Goldens & a Dobe) gave me the name of this trainer:
http://petsinmotion.net/who-we-are/anne-holiday/
I've left a message for her. 
Pets in Motion offers tons of classes, which I'd enjoy. 

So, the hunt is on for a new trainer for my Lula. 


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

You might reach out to certified trainers who are affiliated with Pat Miller, like this one, for recommendations of good facilities in your area.:clover:

Melinda Berger, CPDT-KA, PMCT, CDBC
Dream Dogs, LLC
Newton, PA 18940
[email protected]
dreamdogsonline.com
215-906-9229
Serving: Bucks County PA & surrounding area. Offering Home school, in-home consultations and behavior consultations.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

LauraRose said:


> Well I called the current/former trainer. I told her I've been uncomfortable in class & feel bad for inviting my neighbors. She was quite rude. I asked for a refund. She's sending one, prorated.
> Now to call my friend who owns the class location. :-/
> 
> A friend of mine (who has 2 Goldens & a Dobe) gave me the name of this trainer:
> ...


I like trainers who can also teach dog sports (agility, nose work, etc.)


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> You might reach out to certified trainers who are affiliated with Pat Miller, like this one, for recommendations of good facilities in your area.:clover:
> 
> Melinda Berger, CPDT-KA, PMCT, CDBC
> Dream Dogs, LLC.


Thanks, Debbie!
I already left her a message. 

I'm willing to drive there for such an awesome trainer. 


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> I like trainers who can also teach dog sports (agility, nose work, etc.)


I really like that idea too. I'd love for Lula's training to be lifetime learning. I'd like to find a dog sport she enjoys, for us to enjoy together. I'm thinking Freestyle would be awesome. I can see her loving agility too. 

It seems that Anne Holiday can offer years of training fun for us. 

I haven't heard back from Melinda Berger yet, so we'll see...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

LauraRose said:


> Thanks, Debbie!
> I already left her a message.
> 
> I'm willing to drive there for such an awesome trainer.
> ...


If you do wind up training there, and you don't mind having a "fan" as a spectactor, I would very much like to drop by to watch you and Lula at some point. For sure I'd love to be at her "graduation party!" If it's agreeable to the trainer and you, and Miss Lula.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> If you do wind up training there, and you don't mind having a "fan" as a spectactor, I would very much like to drop by to watch you and Lula at some point. For sure I'd love to be at her "graduation party!" If it's agreeable to the trainer and you, and Miss Lula.


Oh, absolutely!

Hopefully I'll speak with her today. 


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I may be joining this conversation a little late, but I highly recommend Deb Norman at Y2K9s in Wyndmoor, just outside of Philadelphia. Deb is definitely committed to rewards-based training. Here's the web site. 

Welcome to Y2K9s

Here is a handout about the way dogs learn that is given to new students who sign up for one of the Y2K9s obedience classes. I liked it so much that I asked Deb if I could post it on my web site.

Small Standard Poodles - How Dogs Learn


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*peppersb*: Really like what I just read of Deb Norman's training philosophy! So nice to see more and more reward-based trainers out there.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

peppersb said:


> I may be joining this conversation a little late, but I highly recommend Deb Norman at Y2K9s in Wyndmoor, just outside of Philadelphia. Deb is definitely committed to rewards-based training. Here's the web site.
> 
> Welcome to Y2K9s
> 
> ...


Thanks!
I'll check it out tmrw. 


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

I spoke with Melinda Berger this morning & she seems fantastic. 
Unfortunately though, she doesn't have any group classes scheduled. Currently, she's doing all private, in-home training. & I'm just outside her area. Boo. 

She did generously check out Pets in Motion website, & Anne Holiday's info specifically, during our call. I got the thumbs up on what I also thought was the case: Anne seems great too. 
I am moving forward with registering for the March group Obed 1 class. 

Melinda also recommended I check out local Chester Co Dog Training Club. Plan to later this week. 

Feeling relieved at getting into the right class for us. 

Thanks so much, Everyone, for your support. 


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

LauraRose said:


> I really like that idea too. I'd love for Lula's training to be lifetime learning. I'd like to find a dog sport she enjoys, for us to enjoy together. I'm thinking Freestyle would be awesome. I can see her loving agility too.
> 
> It seems that Anne Holiday can offer years of training fun for us.
> 
> ...


Nickel really enjoys his agility class. Tire jump is his favorite. 
I just ordered some platforms and a DVD and will start doing some Freestyle with my boy.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Sounds like you found a great class. It is well worth the trouble of finding a really good teacher. At some point give agility a try. It has really built up Swizzle's confidence and strengthened our bond and it is so much fun. I have also met some very nice people this way.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

My hope is to complete CGC & Therapy Cert, then try agility, freestyle, & possibly nose work to see what she likes. 

I have a feeling she'll LOVE agility. 
I'm HOPING she'll love freestyle. 

So exciting.


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> Nickel really enjoys his agility class. Tire jump is his favorite.
> I just ordered some platforms and a DVD and will start doing some Freestyle with my boy.


Lula really enjoys jumping too! I try to keep her grounded since she's so young yet. 

The platforms, are those shoes for you?
Seriously, I'd love to check out what you got if you have links. 


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> I read all these books & feel so excited by their methods - I just have to find the classes to match.
> Pat Miller, Ian Dunbar, et al - where are you?


Sorry, I didn't know if you were asking me or just saying what you'd ask a potential trainer. 

I'm a huge nerd and have ADD so I'm reading several. 

Dogs Can Sign, Too: A Breakthrough Method for Teaching Your Dog to Communicate 
I really recommend this one, even if a lot of it is hypothetical results

The Human Half of Dog Training: Collaborating with Clients to Get Results
What can I say? Rise is just awesome. So of course her book is too.

When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs 
I'm not a big fan of this book. There are discrepancies in what she says and it's kind of dog training 101 and doesn't contain anything really special for difficult dogs. 

Through a Dog's Ear: Using Sound to Improve the Health & Behavior of Your Canine Companion 
Just started so I can't really comment. 

You sound pretty knowledgable. Why do you want to take classic classes? Why not look for a dog training club?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

If we're now talking reward-based-training books, here's a great link listing lots of them. :nod:
http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...d-based-training-reading-list.html#post192149


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