# Let's clear the air...shall we???



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

That's a lot of information! For me, the issue is not either of your breeding practices unless someone comes on the forum to ask about getting a pup from either one of you.

I think it's fine if BRP has issues with your practices, it's fine if you have issues with her practices. It's just a shame when it carries onto the forum in such a negative way and over so many threads. You both just need to either come right out and say what your issues are with the other, or keep it quiet. It's the insinuations and the feeling that I'm missing half the story that gets tiresome. 

When I join in on a thread, I'd like to think I'm actually discussing a real issue, not participating in someone's secret digs at someone else. I truly hope this does clear the air between you if that's at all possible.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> That's a lot of information! For me, the issue is not either of your breeding practices unless someone comes on the forum to ask about getting a pup from either one of you.
> 
> I think it's fine if BRP has issues with your practices, it's fine if you have issues with her practices. It's just a shame when it carries onto the forum in such a negative way and over so many threads. You both just need to either come right out and say what your issues are with the other, or keep it quiet. It's the insinuations and the feeling that I'm missing half the story that gets tiresome.
> 
> When I join in on a thread, I'd like to think I'm actually discussing a real issue, not participating in someone's secret digs at someone else. I truly hope this does clear the air between you if that's at all possible.


Sadly, I do not think this is possible anymore. There has been way too much water under this bridge and way too many nasty goings on in private for this to be healed. But I would like others to know I am not a liar, and that my business is out there for all to see. I feel badly that others have had to feel a part of this, and have had to feel then tension between us. Hopefully things will calm down to the point of civility though.


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

We all have our own choices to make, our own methods of doing things, our own reasons for doing them.

Amen! And we don't take them lightly!!!
Too much for me to comment on, but this was important to me.
Hug your beautiful poodles... they have a way of making things feel so much better.
Karen


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Testing


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Breeding a 16 month old with a "Fair" prelim is a poor choice. This dog could easily be dysplastic at age 2.

You say that it is the bitch owners choice whether or not to use your dog. This is ridiculous. As the stud dog owner you can say NO to that stud fee.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you kindly Roxy. I would never have been able to figure this out, and this is a whole lot easier than sending out hundreds of emails!! I appreciate this very much.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Breeding a 16 month old with a "Fair" prelim is a poor choice. This dog could easily be dysplastic at age 2.
> 
> You say that it is the bitch owners choice whether or not to use your dog. This is ridiculous. As the stud dog owner you can say NO to that stud fee.


I understand your concern, and appreciate your opinion Cbrand. Thank you. His hips may be good or excellent at two also.

I do not need the stud fee.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

desertreef said:


> We all have our own choices to make, our own methods of doing things, our own reasons for doing them.
> 
> Amen! And we don't take them lightly!!!
> Too much for me to comment on, but this was important to me.
> ...


God bless the Poos. They have been my source of comfort through my empty nesting, my marriage breaking down, my Mom dying and so many other things in life. They will help comfort me now too!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

While I agree w/ Cbrand I do appreciate you honesty. At least you aren't constantly pointing fingers at others or pretending to be something you aren't (like a show breeder). I think the other red breeders here should pay more attention to their own breeding programs and not worry about yours so much. Perhaps they could title some of the dogs they claim to show or figure out whether they have toys or minis.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> While I agree w/ Cbrand I do appreciate you honesty. At least you aren't constantly pointing fingers at others or pretending to be something you aren't (like a show breeder). I think the other red breeders here should pay more attention to their own breeding programs and not worry about yours so much. Perhaps they could title some of the dogs they claim to show or figure out whether they have toys or minis.


I could not agree more. I truly do understand myself where cbrand is coming from, but again, will not apologize for what I have done. I agreed for my own reasons and will hope for the best outcome. 

Everyone in every aspect of life should sweep their own doorstep before they get their noses in other people's affairs. My oldest son is a drug addict, and we live in narrow minded small town Ontario. While some other parents were busy judging us and him, their focus was off their own kids, who also became drug addicts. Maybe if they had spent their time educating their own child or keeping an eye on things instead of spending all of their energy talking about us, this wouldn't have happened to them. Who really knows. But, usually people who spend a ton of time berating and beating up others have work to do in their own back yard.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I could not agree more. I truly do understand myself where cbrand is coming from, but again, will not apologize for what I have done. I agreed for my own reasons and will hope for the best outcome.
> 
> Everyone in every aspect of life should sweep their own doorstep before they get their noses in other people's affairs. My oldest son is a drug addict, and we live in narrow minded small town Ontario. While some other parents were busy judging us and him, their focus was off their own kids, who also became drug addicts. Maybe if they had spent their time educating their own child or keeping an eye on things instead of spending all of their energy talking about us, this wouldn't have happened to them. Who really knows. But, usually people who spend a ton of time berating and beating up others have work to do in their own back yard.


I couldn't agree more. You know the old saying those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. I think its a great pity that you feel that you have to start a thread and post all your testing to defend yourself.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Arreau and Cbrand, I appreciate your honesty. I know that each of us has to make decisions for our own programs and then we have to take the responsibility for those decisions regardless of how others feel about them. I do believe that you have been doing this. Healthy debates about how we feel about others programs are what we are looking for. Honest opinions without mudslinging is the way to go. A person does not have to agree with what another is doing and can say so without getting personal about it.

As this is a public forum, we have to respect the opinions of others. If everyone was able to do this, there would be a lot less waring and a lot more sharing of information that would actually be helpful to members.

Please don't misunderstand; I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular. Being a moderator requires me to read all of the threads and sift through all of the going-ons. It is quite time consuming. It is so discouraging when one of us moderators finally has to step in with a warning for bad behavior only to have it ignored so that someone can make another attempt to win the war. We moderators do a lot of discussion before we even take a single action on the forum. It is important to us that you all have your say but it is also important to us that it not become an ugly place to be and run off good members.

We're all here to learn from one another. That requires respectful treatment of each other. As long as post are onions worded in such a way that does not attack another member, we're good. Let's all try to keep to the rules and keep this an informative forum to share what we know and knowledge about ourselves.

I will say that the last thread ended in the temporary banning of members. If members are not willing to abide by the rules of the forum, this is the consequence for it. Please to put us in a position where we have to do this to anyone else. We really hate it.
_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I could not agree more. I truly do understand myself where cbrand is coming from, but again, will not apologize for what I have done. I agreed for my own reasons and will hope for the best outcome.
> 
> Everyone in every aspect of life should sweep their own doorstep before they get their noses in other people's affairs. My oldest son is a drug addict, and we live in narrow minded small town Ontario. While some other parents were busy judging us and him, their focus was off their own kids, who also became drug addicts. Maybe if they had spent their time educating their own child or keeping an eye on things instead of spending all of their energy talking about us, this wouldn't have happened to them. Who really knows. But, usually people who spend a ton of time berating and beating up others have work to do in their own back yard.


_That was incredibly well said. I have seen it happen over and over again in my own small town. We all have things in our lives and NONE of us want to have our lives put under a microscope. There's no such thing as a person without baggage. However, if we're called out, it says a lot about you if you are willing and able to come forth honestly and talk about it.
_


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _As long as post are onions worded in such a way that does not attack another member, we're good.
> _


Onions?? LOL

(just kidding--I'm a former moderator of another forum, not poodle related. I know how you feel)


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Marian said:


> Onions?? LOL
> 
> (just kidding--I'm a former moderator of another forum, not poodle related. I know how you feel)


_:rofl: We can express onions too. They'll make you cry but they won't say bad things about you! LOL_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Did I say something offensive??? If I did, I apologize!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Arreau, I am sorry you were spoken to that way. I don't think you deserved that regardless of differences. 

Many of us were dragged into something we DID NOT want to be dragged into. At the end of the day, how people conduct themselves is whats important, and for breeders I feel that there is a certain amount of professionalism expected, in my opinion anyway. Regardless you seem to always maintain this, you are not perfect hwell: but last time I checked none of us are. 

Hopefully everyone can move past this and not give this mess anymore attention. 



On a side note - Jak, our super sweet calm and rational memeber and friend truely did an outstanding job trying to one sort through the BS calmly as well AND tried desperately to get people to get it!! In the end, had he not mediated.....um I think this thing could have gotten even worse. As the forum grows, Jak would be a great moderator!! :clap2::whoo:


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Marian said:


> Onions?? LOL
> 
> (just kidding--I'm a former moderator of another forum, not poodle related. I know how you feel)





spoospirit said:


> _:rofl: We can express onions too. They'll make you cry but they won't say bad things about you! LOL_


Okay, I totally thought you meant to say ONIONS! I was like, "that is an interesting way of putting it". :doh: I think I looked WAY too much into that, lol


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Olie said:


> On a side note - Jak, our super sweet calm and rational memeber and friend truely did an outstanding job trying to one sort through the BS calmly as well AND tried desperately to get people to get it!! In the end, had he not mediated.....um I think this thing could have gotten even worse. As the forum grows, Jak would be a great moderator!! :clap2::whoo:


I wholeheartedly agree! He is normally so calm and passive, but it was awesome to see him step up. He didn't belittle anyone, and I felt he made valid points!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Arreau, I am sorry you were spoken to that way. I don't think you deserved that regardless of differences.
> 
> Many of us were dragged into something we DID NOT want to be dragged into. At the end of the day, how people conduct themselves is whats important, and for breeders I feel that there is a certain amount of professionalism expected, in my opinion anyway. Regardless you seem to always maintain this, you are not perfect hwell: but last time I checked none of us are.
> 
> ...


Thank you Olie. I am quite certain this is not over yet. There are friends and associates of the other party who hate me, talk about me and think they are "in the know" about me. They will not rest easy until they have voiced their feelings about me, and I am quite alright with that. I am quite tired of hearing about PM's people are receiving, full of insinuations about what these people thiink they know about me but them never coming right out and saying anything at all. This is their opportunity to clear the air. I know at least two people on here who have been told lie after lie after lie about me, and I would like them to know things are not as they have been led to believe.

As for Jak...where do these mature, intelligent and thoughtful young men come from?? We are blessed with Jak and Keithsomething (although we don't see much of him anymore). I cannot believe the level headedness of these young fellows, and appreciate so much Jak's detective work yesterday. Their Mama's have done an awesome job of rasing their sons.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I just wanted to say too, I hope I have never given anyone the impression that I do not think I have ever made mistakes. I wish!! I have never claimed to be the perfect wife, perfect mother, perfect daughter, perfect dog breeder, perfect singer (yes, I sing). All any of us can do is try to learn from our mistakes, grow as people, atone and be a little better next time. I am sure in ten years time, I will look back and see where I might have done something differently, but this is my journey, and I must learn from MY OWN mistakes and hope I do not hurt anyone else along the way, and leave somebody out there with a smile on their face.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

Arreau you should know that we love you warts and all and appreciate all your good advise and common sense. Not to mention all those laughs and honest friendship. Hang in these this too shall pass


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Trillium said:


> Arreau you should know that we love you warts and all and appreciate all your good advise and common sense. Not to mention all those laughs and honest friendship. Hang in these this too shall pass


Thanks Trillium. Lord knows there are lots of warts!!! I love you too, and thank you for helping keep me from blowing a gasket this past few months and helping me keep my head on straight!!!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Did I say something offensive??? If I did, I apologize!!


_
NOPE....I said that I was not pointing a finger and any member. Everything is OK._


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## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Hips*

Tooooo much opinion - toooooo few verifyable FACTS. Breeding a prelim "OFA Fair" - I would never - don't even breed Fairs at two. Why all this documentation? Anyone who wants to know about my dogs' testing can have their CHIC number, log on to the OFA site and look it up for themselves.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

dagnyreis.... You are obviously a new member. This thread is in response to MONTHS of drama that has gone on previously in this forum - the information and test results provided by this board member are welcome by anyone who wishes to read it - if you didn't wish to read it, you didn't have to... Your post says "Tooooo much opinion - toooooo few verifyable FACTS." I believe that your post is ALSO an opinion - doesnt EVERYONE have one??? Isn't YOURS always RIGHT???? (not!!)

Congratulations that anyone who wants to know about YOUR dogs' testing can go to OFA - the OP of this thread lives in Canada and all of her test results aren't ON OFA because she had the testing done at a University in Canada so there is a difference...

I've been following (and involved in) this situation from before the beginning and I'm just a little offended at your post - don't know WHY, but I am!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Plumcrazy I can see your frustration - maybe because's there is an obvious agenda:doh: I look at it this way, there is a pretty good reason in "some peoples" mind to discredit Arreau so they are pulling every card they can find. I mean I could see if she was a byb but she's not. An opinion is one thing but to find every angle you can to discredit is very unprofessional and immature. I would go as far as to say.......as childish as some are being, it looks like jealousy to me. It is obvious where this person is posting that this is NOT a coincidence.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

dagnyreis said:


> Tooooo much opinion - toooooo few verifyable FACTS. Breeding a prelim "OFA Fair" - I would never - don't even breed Fairs at two. Why all this documentation? Anyone who wants to know about my dogs' testing can have their CHIC number, log on to the OFA site and look it up for themselves.


_You have read and revived several red poodle threads. I would think that you would have picked up the rivalry between some of the red breeders while doing that. It is more about differences of opinions on a personal level than about facts. If you sifted through all of that information, you should have picked up the facts that were there on how each member feels about OFA results. This is why we are shutting down threads that get away from the opinions/facts and gravitate to personal attacks.

If anyone wants to know about your dogs, they will go to the OFA site for the results.

I'm glad to hear that you would not breed a dog with OFA fair results and I am sure others are as well.
_


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## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _You have read and revived several red poodle threads. I would think that you would have picked up the rivalry between some of the red breeders while doing that. It is more about differences of opinions on a personal level than about facts. If you sifted through all of that information, you should have picked up the facts that were there on how each member feels about OFA results. This is why we are shutting down threads that get away from the opinions/facts and gravitate to personal attacks.
> 
> If anyone wants to know about your dogs, they will go to the OFA site for the results.
> 
> ...


Actually I have not read those threads. I saw snapshots here and there but I didn't follow a thread as the subject matter was not interesting in a way I thought I could gain from. (Selfish, huh?) My purpose for joining the forum was simply to learn as much as possible about people's experiences and opinions of Standards as pets.


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

Olie said:


> Plumcrazy I can see your frustration - maybe because's there is an obvious agenda:doh: I look at it this way, there is a pretty good reason in "some peoples" mind to discredit Arreau so they are pulling every card they can find. I mean I could see if she was a byb but she's not. An opinion is one thing but to find every angle you can to discredit is very unprofessional and immature. I would go as far as to say.......as childish as some are being, it looks like jealousy to me. It is obvious where this person is posting that this is NOT a coincidence.


I have been incredibly frustrated with this forum and a few select members as well.I have not been on as much as others because of this and many of the same reasons.I talked to Arreau last night and was disturbed to find out what has been going on,and I am sorry I was not aware it was going on either to be able to lend her my support.However,it maybe is also a good thing,I can get very heated when people start to become RUDE,NASTY,and condescending which I have dealt with allot as well. I am glad maybe we can get back to being able to help one another,LEARN,share,be supportive, and try not to judge others.Breeders make MANY different decisions for MANY different reasons and have to weigh EVERYTHING before they decide to make a breeding decision.I do not feel there is always black and white answers, and many are opinions, and what is OK for one may not be for another,it is not right and wrong.Breeding, no matter how careful,is ALWAYS a risk of some kind. I too as someone else has mentioned, am a firm believer of "People who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones", I say that to my friends all the time,and I believe "What goes around comes around", and in the end,it usually does.LOL I do hope from now on,before people just ATTACK, or INSINUATE at another,have your facts, and maybe think twice...as I doubt "YOU" (they)really are that perfect that "YOU" have never made mistakes or ever bad decisions....(I am speaking metaphorically for whomever it applies)LOL A veteran breeder I was speaking to one time said to me "XXXX", when people have things to say about you,it just means you must be doing something right that you have gotten that much of their attention" I remember this every time someone has something to say about me,and most often times,it is someone who doesnt even know me, so guess I'm doing something pretty good so far.LOL :rockon:


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## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Breeding*



Moxie said:


> I have been incredibly frustrated with this forum and a few select members as well.I have not been on as much as others because of this and many of the same reasons.I talked to Arreau last night and was disturbed to find out what has been going on,and I am sorry I was not aware it was going on either to be able to lend her my support.However,it maybe is also a good thing,I can get very heated when people start to become RUDE,NASTY,and condescending which I have dealt with allot as well. I am glad maybe we can get back to being able to help one another,LEARN,share,be supportive, and try not to judge others.Breeders make MANY different decisions for MANY different reasons and have to weigh EVERYTHING before they decide to make a breeding decision.I do not feel there is always black and white answers, and many are opinions, and what is OK for one may not be for another,it is not right and wrong.Breeding, no matter how careful,is ALWAYS a risk of some kind. I too as someone else has mentioned, am a firm believer of "People who live in glass houses shouldnt throw stones", I say that to my friends all the time,and I believe "What goes around comes around", and in the end,it usually does.LOL I do hope from now on,before people just ATTACK, or INSINUATE at another,have your facts, and maybe think twice...as I doubt "YOU" (they)really are that perfect that "YOU" have never made mistakes or ever bad decisions....(I am speaking metaphorically for whomever it applies)LOL A veteran breeder I was speaking to one time said to me "XXXX", when people have things to say about you,it just means you must be doing something right that you have gotten that much of their attention" I remember this every time someone has something to say about me,and most often times,it is someone who doesnt even know me, so guess I'm doing something pretty good so far.LOL :rockon:


I can agree with everything though I would add one thing: Poodles have a detailed, very specific AKC Standard. It purports to apply equally to all three varieties/sizes, but we all know that it's nearly impossible to get flat cheeks on a Toy, so when the Standard says, "Cheekbones and muscles flat" there seems to often be forgiveness in the Toy ring and I don't personally object to that within reason. For Standards, however..........The Standard is there for a reason as it is for all breeds, and while it allows for differences in many ways it states Major Faults very clearly. Sadly I see dogs with Major Faults winning in the ring and being bred. 

Having said that, and I do stand by it, let me quote you: "...maybe we can get back to being able to help one another,LEARN,share,be supportive, and try not to judge others." One tool to help us do that might be that if we're CONSTRUCTIVELY critical, perhaps we should take it into PM land? What do you think? In management I always praised in public and critiqued in private.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

dagnyreis said:


> Having said that, and I do stand by it, let me quote you: "...maybe we can get back to being able to help one another,LEARN,share,be supportive, and try not to judge others." One tool to help us do that might be that if we're CONSTRUCTIVELY critical, perhaps we should take it into PM land? What do you think? In management I always praised in public and critiqued in private.



I can agree with this, it has been very strange to say the least. It would be a whole different place if this happened, some are not very receptive to change. It's just the way it is especially in cyber land!  

Sorry if my response was negative to you...it seemed Cherie had had enough - although she CAN defend herself, some of us (me) was drug into just because of being respectful and considerate. I think most of us are moving on...........HAPPY DAYS:dancing:


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## dagnyreis (Nov 25, 2009)

*Cyberland*



Olie said:


> I can agree with this, it has been very strange to say the least. It would be a whole different place if this happened, some are not very receptive to change. It's just the way it is especially in cyber land!
> 
> Sorry if my response was negative to you...it seemed Cherie had had enough - although she CAN defend herself, some of us (me) was drug into just because of being respectful and considerate. I think most of us are moving on...........HAPPY DAYS:dancing:


No, it wasn't negative to me.

You know, I have around 500 friends on Facebook, about 2/3 of them Poodle folks. I have never seen a bru-ha-ha there, and I don't know why - I'm simply guessing because folks seem to send private messages on certain issues and no one seems particularly thin skinned. When a Poodle passes away the supportive posts go on forever. A major breeder even offered a retired Champion to a little boy who'd lost his Poodle. Isn't that how it should be?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

dagnyreis said:


> i can agree with everything though i would add one thing: Poodles have a detailed, very specific akc standard. It purports to apply equally to all three varieties/sizes, but we all know that it's nearly impossible to get flat cheeks on a toy, so when the standard says, "cheekbones and muscles flat" there seems to often be forgiveness in the toy ring and i don't personally object to that within reason. For standards, however..........the standard is there for a reason as it is for all breeds, and while it allows for differences in many ways it states major faults very clearly. Sadly i see dogs with major faults winning in the ring and being bred.
> 
> Having said that, and i do stand by it, let me quote you: "...maybe we can get back to being able to help one another,learn,share,be supportive, and try not to judge others." one tool to help us do that might be that if we're constructively critical, perhaps we should take it into pm land? What do you think? In management i always praised in public and critiqued in private.


*
amen!*


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