# NEVER use a groomer you don't *know* for sure knows what the he77 she is doing-CHECK!



## Liann (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm new to the Spoo world so I am learning day by day. This weekend I learned the hard way. I wish I had found this site before my disaster. I am an idiot. 
(lesson #1 Google BEFORE you do something stupid, not after)

Zowie is 10 mos old and should have been getting her usual puppy cut but my Dad had a stroke 6 weeks ago and we missed her grooming appt so it's been a total of 4 months since she got her hair did. On top of that her usual brushings were put off to the side during that ordeal. She wasn't in the best of shape I'll admit. Because of all the rain and mud here she has been a mess. The poor thing was getting leg baths numerous times a day with almost no brush outs or drying. Again, she wasn't at her best... I mean my best. 
(lesson #2 Poodle hair doesn't care if you're too busy)

I knew she would most likely need to have her lower legs shaved. I accepted that the hair below her ear leather would have to go- my fault for not knowing I needed one of these handy dandy spinning tooth combs to find at skin mats. BUT! Her top knot, back, sides, butt, chest, and tail were good. Sure sure some small mats on her hind but honestly- doable. 
(lesson #3 Always brush out your curly horse BEFORE taking her in for a groom so you know EXACTLY where her trouble spots are)

SO, I make the appt to have Zowie groomed at this little place not more than 3 minutes from my house. I *thought* I needed to find a new place nearby because Zowie is not good in cars... no really, not good at all. 5 minutes after we take off she is drooling like mad, 2 minutes later she starts to barf, 2 minutes after that she is pooping, 30 seconds after that she is laying in all of it as I am hanging my head out the window gagging. Wait 10 minutes and repeat. Her normal groomer is 20 minutes from my house. (we stop her eating the night before, no water the morning of AND give her dramamine btw- no help) Anyhoo back to the groom doom- I call the place, ask about prices, tell her about Zowie and her trouble spots, ask her about dying, she tells me no prob and that she had just done one like Zowie the day before and how cute she was. She then says she can get Zowie in on Saturday! I was like WOOHOOOOOO! 1:30 here we come! Pick up time is 5pm- sweet.
(lesson #4 Stick with a groomer you know is good even if you have to rent a truck and put the dog in a mondo sized carrier in the back. IT'S WORTH IT! Either that or trick someone into taking her for you- ya ya that's the ticket.)(lesson #5 IF you truly need to find a new groomer interview them like you would an employee, better yet like you would interview your human or furbaby nanny. Make them PROVE they know what they're doing not just take their word for it. Ask for references because your dog is worth it) 

Saturday comes and I drop her off just before 1:30. The groomer and the owner seem really nice and really good. I look over at the dog the owner is grooming and that lil ****z looks fabulous! Lines are near perfect and he was a happy camper- good sign right? The groomer even called me to tell me Zowie's back end didn't have to be shaved because it wasn't that bad but I had already set my sights on a continental type cut with a bikini twist. 3pm comes around, I call to check up on Zowie. Answering machine. I figure they must be working hard. No call back so I begin to worry about not getting a doggy receipt. Did they steal my dog? Lose her? NOPE! She's just getting a hack job.
(lesson #6 NEVER EVER NEVER have your dog groomed on the weekend, busiest times for groomers here. Your dog will spend most of it's day in a cage- hungry and not taken out to potty. Learned that from the breeder, my BFF who has poms, my Mom who bred Lhasas when I was a kid, and numerous websites over the weekend)
(lesson #7 get a friggin doggy receipt *just in case*. Why worry right? These dogs aren't cheap!)

Pick up time comes and me and mini me are chomping at the bit to go get her. We take off and arrive to Zowie laying on a table with her ears choppy shaved, her rear choppy shaved with horribly uneven butt puffs (one on her back in the right spot only oval and about 3 inches longer than the other) and one cute round one a little lower on the other side, her face choppy shaved, her rear tootsies the same, front legs choppy shaved unevenly by a few inches with bracelets about 9 inches long and uneven by about 2 inches. I knew then that Zowie's grooming had begun about an hour before but instead listened to the groomer telling me this was the second demat. (Do groomers demat, bathe, dry, demat again, then clean up and even out? No really- I need to know cuz I am pizzed)

Well she wasn't ready at 5. She said she would call when she was done. I called at 6, I called at 7 no answer. Both times I drove by the shop and sure enough their cars were still out front. MAN they must be working hard on puppies! 8pm comes around and I get my call! I am SO excited to get my baby girl!!!!! Mini me (13 yr old Daughter) dumps all of her texting friends and we rush off to pick up the Zowster! We were so excited to get her I didn't look past her knot and that wonderful smile. Zowie was SO happy to see us she piddled LOL! I payed the owner $70 and gave the groomer $5 as Zowie was giving out hugs to all. I DID notice her tail hadn't been touched and said I would be in on Tues to get it fixed (they are closed on Mons). 

We get home and she BURSTS out of the car and pees right on the driveway then heads to the grass and poops. Bless her heart, she held it. As she is pooping I see that her butt puffs are off- a lot- and that she kinda looks like a camel cuz her top knot had been trimmed to a snow cone but her vest hadn't been touched cept near the waist which was crooked and blocked. Top knot-3 inches, the rest- 7 inches and stringy old growth~ not exaggerating. All the choppy was still there, the uneven legs and bracelets and all. I am NOT being mean, I am NOT being obsessive. It looked like a child snuck scissors and cut her hair to me. Here are the pics from 2 hours after we brought her home. (everyone was asleep so they're dark. I was so upset and lost. I KNEW it didn't look right but all I could do was take pics and search the internet and think I was being a benotch about the whole thing)


































More to come-










I-am-devastated.


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## Liann (Feb 14, 2010)

Please tell me I'm noy a nutter here. Not ONE person that has seen her since Saturday hasn't laughed at her or told me I was robbed for $75. 

I took her back today (Tuesday) and watched like a hawk the whole 3 hours while she "fixed" her. (Still bad but LOADS better) 

I kept telling them that for $75 I AT LEAST expected her to look like she had actually been groomed.

I'll show the after after pics tomorrow (cuz it's so late) but please just one person identify with me and my ignorance. Oh and agreeing that she was hacked would help.


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## Liann (Feb 14, 2010)

Oh did I mention the tips of 3 nipples were shaved off? I'm a horrible fur Mommy!


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## Mandycasey'smom (Jan 3, 2009)

Did se get bathed and blowdryed? YIKES Glad she looks better now can't wai to see the new pics.

Get some clippers and learn yourself it is really fun to spend time with them and if we screw up ( whichI dp a lot of ) we can only blame ourselves
I had my own grooming incedent but turned out ok this weekend


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Mandycasey'smom said:


> Did se get bathed and blowdryed? YIKES Glad she looks better now can't wai to see the new pics.
> 
> Get some clippers and learn yourself it is really fun to spend time with them and if we screw up ( whichI dp a lot of ) we can only blame ourselves
> I had my own grooming incedent but turned out ok this weekend


I second this!! Doing it yourself is WAY more fun, and you don't feel like you got ripped off when it comes out not-so-great. 

Can you get a full body shot of her later? Her fur looks so curly in some of those shots though, was she blow dried?? Maybe it's unreasonable of me, but I always expect poodles to come out of the grooming shop fluff dried... :\


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

It's hard to tell on the grooming job without the dog being fluffed out properly..also if they groomed her with her hair being so curly that could be why it's uneven as well.

Although i'll be honest and say i'm surprised they were able to leave any hair. After that long of a time and bathing a dog with a long coat without brushing is a nightmare waiting to happen. Mine start to tangle after just a few weeks but i'd rather not bathe them then get them wet and not comb them..better to just leave them dirty and brush them out when you have a chance and then bathe them when you have time to comb it out a bit..the water can make the knots a lot tighter if they don't get combed out.

It does look like they did a horrible job though..they could have gotten a better job just running a snap comb over the dog...but again if the hair isn't properly fluffed out then a good grooming job is damn near impossible. It looks like they probably were in a rush..perhaps even cage dried here..as there is NO reason for a dog to be at the grooming shop that long.

I can bathe, dry, clip both of my spoos in about 2-3 hours or so depending on how long their coat is at the time. 

At least she was happy to see you! I agree with other people..are you open to learning how to do it yourself? There are great videos you can watch and plenty of information online. A lot of spoo owners on this forum groom their own dogs and they look fantastic.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Believe me, I know what you speak of. My boy Flynn lives with my sister and her family. He suffered four atrocious haircuts from four different groomers, one the worst I have EVER seen!! They finally found a decent groomer who did a lovely haircut on him. Betty-Jo and Jenny who are co-owned by Trillium have seen similar grooming disasters. Trillium has had to let them grow out for months to try to fix the mess the groomer made of their top knots. They are comiing here to get their next haircuts so we know they will look nice. And Trillium has ordered clippers so she can learn to keep them up in between haircuts. I have gotten to the point where I feel, in this country anyway, that anyone can hang a shingle out and call themselves a groomer. But when you see a mess where you know your six year old Grandson could do it better with his eyes closed and one hand tied behind his back, it is time to learn how to do it yourself. You may make a few messes, but really, can it get much worse? And the clippers and blades will pay for themselves in a few haircuts.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

I don't have any advice, my pup only gets a puppy cut but I'm sorry. The part about her nipples shaved OFF makes me cringe. 

And the car-sickness? Oy. I'm doubly-sorry about that. Tripl-y even. Does the vet have any suggestions. Or maybe the breeder where you got her might have some ideas? Bella gets car sick if she's eaten anything within 3 hours, lately. But if we starve the poor girl all we get is drool.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I am a groomer. I know what I can realistically do and in what amount of time I can do it. If I interviewd with you on the phone, first of all, you would nave NEVER gotten a Saturday appt. With a dog in that bad of condition AND being a new client as well. However, if you insisted on coming on Saturday, I would have done a brief lobby intervire and I know from experience that a poodle in coat change that had not been groomed u 4 months would be a "start all over again" groom. I would not perform torture for 6 plus hours on a wonderful standard puppy. The mentally cannot handle that: I would have charged about the same and your dog would have been home in 2 hours looking like short crushed velvet. Clean, short, low maintainene for the rest of the winter...I would have concentrated on perfect face and feet with a cute expression. Forget about the body jacket and bracelets...they will all grow back by spring....I would TELL you what I could do with your dog, not lie and say I can leave fullness when I know it would be next to impossible AND painfull. Its a horrible groom and traumatic. However, she may be a great groomer on a dog in excellent shape. I say I perform one miracle groom in each dogs life and I could not have performed a niracle groom on your dog either


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I can't tell anything from those pics, they are too out of focus. I have to agree that she probably should've just been shaved and started over. It sounds like she was in bad shape. (Hey life happens and I understand that it isn't your fault.) It also sounds like she has major behavioral/emotional issues. (I thought Harley was bad in the car, but wow!) Could that be the reason for the choppy cut, poor drying and missing nipples? If she freaks out just being in the car, what would she do in the tub or being dried w/ a high velocity dryer? I'm not excusing the groomer, she should've realized she was in over her head if that's the case. 


On another note, I would never let anyone groom my dogs w/o seeing pics of their work. Preferably on my breed and in the pattern I wanted, especially if I wanted any form of a Continental. I've see way too many horrible Contis done by professional and amatuers alike.


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## Liann (Feb 14, 2010)

Letting everyone know that I'm still here and not a pigeon poster. My Dad had another "episode" and I haven't had time to post replies or pics.


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## Savannah (Jan 15, 2010)

I agree with the others, your poor dog should have been started over. It's the groomer's responsibility to communicate properly. And no groomer should be afraid to tell you if something I beyond their ability. If it were me, I would tell you first that I would try very hard to save the head and tail (I always try to save these, so the dog doesn't look too funky) but that everything else would be started over. No ifs, ands, or buts. It's pure torment to fully demat a dog in that condition. Especially since your poor girl was already SO stressed when she got there, it would be much better to do what's easiest on her (sorry sometimes you gotta make the dog happy instead of the client).

That said, Im pretty sure I know where this groomer went wrong. She didn't demat before the bath, she just washed her and cage dried beacuse she ha other clients to groom first. Bad groomer! In my shop, the other groomers never brush or demat before bathing, I honestly dont know how they can function like that. I can tell you one thing, it's basically impossible to fluff dry a matted poodle, so that's why she's so curly. Again, bad groomer!

None of us are perfect, and I shaved Flash head to tail once for matting (his coat change was horrible!!) but it's my personal rule that I will never demat my poodle. If I let him get tangled, then MY penalty is he has to be shaved. I would never make it HIS penalty by putting him through a painful and very stressful demat.


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

Savannah said:


> That said, Im pretty sure I know where this groomer went wrong. She didn't demat before the bath, she just washed her and cage dried beacuse she ha other clients to groom first. Bad groomer! In my shop, the other groomers never brush or demat before bathing, I honestly dont know how they can function like that. I can tell you one thing, it's basically impossible to fluff dry a matted poodle, so that's why she's so curly. Again, bad groomer!


It's much easier to demat a CLEAN coat and using the HV dryer with detangling sprays (while the coat is still wet) helps to loosen matting. Of course, after brushing out, there may be some area's you'll want to refluff, but you are going to save more coat and do less damage brushing clean coat. Also, you'll want to use a list mist of diluted detangling spray while de-matting and use the proper tools. 

I NEVER try to brush out a dirty dog! Hard on the coat, my tools, the DOG and me! Dirt and debris make mats tighter and hard to brush out, not to mention it breaks coat which will cause further matting in the future.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I was always told to brush before bathing but i've also never had to demat a dog in that condition..most of the dogs we would do came every 2-4 weeks so spending a few minutes brushing out a few tangles and then toss them in the tub.

The closest i've ever had to a horrible dematting situation was a soft coated wheaten..they were going to shave him so I put him in the tub first anyway...i lathered him in some really good conditioner and was able to use a comb and get a lot of the matts out and the others came out with the force dryer..completely saved that dogs coat.


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

i will always bath before brushing on most dogs.... if dog only has a small amouth of matts.. bathing a fue times and good conditioner and grooming sprays will help losen up a matted coat... it it easier if you know how to do it.

i do sometimes break up bigger matts before the bath but i wont dematt completely till after the bath and will a poodle i would slightly dry but leave the coat damp and work my way though the coat with a dryer and a dematter and a slicker to get the knots out and fluff dry at the same time..... 

i cannot give a opiion about your dog h cut because the pictures are so unclear but i will say the dog doesnt look like she has been fluff dryed properley which will ruin any grooming she has had.






if the dog is so bad i will shave off before the bath,


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## Mister (Sep 10, 2008)

I want to see pics after she fixed the your pup the next day.


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## Savannah (Jan 15, 2010)

Hmm, I was always taught to brush before bathing! Every book I've read on the subject states specifically that water tightens mats and makes dematting even harder. I do know that a good conditioner helps a TON with a bad coat, so I use a spray in dematting conditioner before I ever take a brush to a dog. 

For many dogs I do bathe and thoroughly condition first, but I have better luck removing the worst mats before the dog is wet.

I am intrigued by the possibility of wet dematting. I've done a bit of it, especially with ears, but does it really help protect the hair? I may need to change my approach to grooming, if so.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Do you agree that dematting also depends on the size and type of matt? I mean my sister-in-law brought me her shih tzu to groom and she was matted to the skin. I had no choice but to shave her down. She even had poop matted to her rear and it was all from lack of brushing. To me there is no instance, aside from small matts that can be combed out, to put a dog through the rigors of dematting. Hair can grow back but trauma is hard to undo.


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## Savannah (Jan 15, 2010)

KPoos said:


> To me there is no instance, aside from small matts that can be combed out, to put a dog through the rigors of dematting. Hair can grow back but trauma is hard to undo.


I couldn't agree more! I think many people simply don't realize what dematting does to a dog. I have a Shih Tzu client that wants a full coat, but does not even own a brush! She comes in every six weeks matted as can be and needing two hours' of brushout minimum. I put my foot down and told my boss I am not willing to do that to this poor sweet dog anymore. Sadly, my boss took the dog over, and the routine continues. And I have to watch this sweet puppy turn into a nasty biter because grooming HURTS and she doesn't want to put up with it anymore. 

I really wish my boss would let the owner know how much he's hurting his dog, but he's her neighbor and she doesn't want to upset him.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I told my sister-in-law that she needed to buy a brush and brush her on a regular basis. I told her otherwise, I'd have to shave her like that every time. I'm not going to waste my time trying to get matts out that are the size of a fist and almost to the skin. I mean didn't she realize that the dog had matted poop on her? No because they don't really bathe their dogs. I just did her schnauzer and he wasn't matted at all but he did stink to high heaven.


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

Of course, matting is case-by-case and terribly matted coats WILL get the most humane treatment (which usually means a shave down), but I've brushed out my share of mats. 

Savannah, Notes from the Grooming table is a great book. You might also invest in Jodi Murphy's dvd about dematting. Honestly, the mats do come out better when the coat is properly set up. Water itself, doesn't tighten mats, it actually makes the hair more pliable and pulls it away from the skin (ever shave a wet dog?), what makes the mats tighter is when the hair dries, so you don't want to crate dry a matted dog if you have hopes of brushing it out. With the HV dryer however, the force helps to break apart the mat and with the help of a detangling spray, it gives the hair some "slickness" which makes the mat release better.


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## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

Speaking as a spinner (and former Angora rabbit breeder), I do know it's warm/hot water & agitation that felt (mat) wool. Tepid water, shampoo to take the dirt out, gentle handling and detangler should NOT mat additionally, it's how we handle roving (minus detangler). Personally, I don't like brushing dirty wool (on the beast or on carders, lol.)

PS I would also shave down any bad mats. Poor Bella loathes being brushed after all that neglect- that slicker brush is like a zepher over her skin & she still flinches. Working on associating it with delicious treats- easy psychology for a formerly starving dog.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I never have to worry about this since my sister is a groomer , but I went through this with my own hair several times. 

I don't ever go to salons period , I just get my hair done with in home stylist that do 95% black hair only lol even if they do , do 95% black hair only I ask for a profolio to look at.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm taking Teddy to the groomer today for his summer puppy clip. I'm a little nervous, but I don't know why. I've used this groomer before and I like her. I was just a little unhappy with the top of his head last time. I think it could have been uneven because he was wiggly, so I don't blame the groomer 100%. And, it's only hair. It will grow back. 



roxy25 said:


> I never have to worry about this since my sister is a groomer , but I went through this with my own hair several times.
> 
> I don't ever go to salons period , I just get my hair done with in home stylist that do 95% black hair only lol even if they do , do 95% black hair only I ask for a profolio to look at.


That reminds me...I just watched Chris Rock's documentary "Good Hair" this weekend. Have you seen it, Roxy? He is hilarious on this topic.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Marian said:


> That reminds me...I just watched Chris Rock's documentary "Good Hair" this weekend. Have you seen it, Roxy? He is hilarious on this topic.


Yes I have seen the movie even tho I know about black hair. It was hilarious !
" I'm on the creamy crack" LOL


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> yes i have seen the movie even tho i know about black hair. It was hilarious !
> " i'm on the creamy crack" lol


lmao!!!


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Found this on the internet. I'm getting one for Teddy, in case I don't like his haircut.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

Wow. I can't believe a professional groomer would hand over a dog looking like that. Sorry about your dad, and hope all is ok. 

I've worked on some pretty badly matted foster dogs, but never brush out dirty coat. In the tub they go, and I let them sit a bit in conditioner. The HV dryer will blow a lot of the mats out, but if they're pelted, then I do a wet shave with a #4F or #5F blade.


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