# Health testing and vet bills



## RubyRuby (Nov 7, 2011)

I'm planning to get my first dog this spring (hopefully a spoo puppy!), and one of the first choices I had to make was whether to acquire a dog from a breeder or a shelter. There are many reasons why I'm choosing to go the "breeder route" for my first dog, but I am still curious about the lifelong health of a purebred dog from health-tested stock vs a shelter dog of unknown origins.

I've been told that a purebred puppy from a breeder costs more upfront, but less in the long run because the dog is less likely to have health problems that would run up a big vet bill. Likewise, it is inexpensive to adopt a shelter dog, but the dog may have or develop health issues that are costly to manage, not to mention stressful for both dog and human.

In your experience, does this prove true in real life? Is the high cost of buying a breeder puppy really offset by savings on future vet bills? I would love to hear from people who have had both purebred, health-tested dogs and non-tested, mixed breed dogs. 

Thanks for sharing!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Whether you get a shelter dog or a breeders dog, both will be expensive in the first year. A person get a breeders dog because they wish to have a specific breed, size, look, temperment and they know (more or less) what will be living with them for the next 12-14 years. I have always preferred purebred dogs because I have always wanted to know what kind of dog I am getting. A friend of mine got an adorable tiny pound puppy that turning into a 100 pound bohemeth of a dog.  

You can find wonderful purebred rescue dogs that don't cost a lot, but usually (not always) rescue dogs have behavioral or neglect issues that are not recommended for a first time dog owner. That's usually why they are in rescue. On occasion, if you are very careful, you can find a well adjusted rescue that had to be given up for reasons unrelated to the dog. It is hard enough learning how to train a dog for the first time without all the added baggage of a challenging dog. 

If you can afford it, I recommend a well socialized breeder dog from health tested lines. My puppy has never even had an ear infection and is in perfect health at a year old. I paid for the puppy vaccinations, but other than that she has never been to the vet since. It costs a lot to get health tests. A breeder who gets them is usually interested in producing only healthy dogs. It is not a guarantee of health, but it hedges bets in your favor. Plus, you will get a dog where you have met one or both parents and will have a decent idea of what size your pup will be and what temperment. All puppies temperments can be shaped by the first year with you. It's tremendous fun watching them blossom into confident adult dogs. 

If you just can't afford it, no one should be without a dog for financial reasons. Go to your local shelter and be very picky about what you bring home. You can find hidden gems in shelters. All dogs deserve a good home, shelter dogs included. Purebreds fit my lifestyle, but maybe it isn't important to you.

I have gotten two dogs from shelters and a number of cats. One of the dogs died from parvo and cost a fortune. The other dog was a complete behavioral disaster.  After those experiences, I decided I only would buy breeder puppies that I raised myself. I don't think of myself as snobby. It was a selfprotective thing. Others on here ONLY rescue dogs, which is fabulous, but they are experienced dog people and capable of dealing with many issues that you might not be ready for.


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## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

I have a "rescue"...but not from a shelter. He was on his way there though. I have had Riley for about 5 years...and he's about 9.5 years old. In these 5 years I have spent about $2500 on him....this is not including "regular" vet visits that ANY dog would have to have. This is for meds for his seperation anxiety and 3 dental cleanings...which again any dog could have. Then there have been 2 visits for his "back" issue (one this week and the other a few months ago) which turned out to be a neck issue and I'm not sure at this point where that's going to lead. So, all in all, I'd say that I havent spent very much on him at all! And, he's been in really, really good health with very few issues (and the issues he HAS had are ones that, I feel, COULD come with any dog!).

Either way, reputable breeder or rescue, I feel that you cant go wrong! 

Whichever way you decide to go....I wish you the best!!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I think that the poodle breed in general has way too many health issues, so it is a higher chance you will have something "go wrong" eventually.  I am a HUGE advicator of going a reputable breeder route with health tested stock!! In should save you in the long run, but again there are so many issues it could still happen. Alot of the issues dont have tests either (autoimmune, addisons, seizures, bloat, just to name some), so you really have to go with a breeder who looks at the whole pedigree and stays away from dogs with these issues in their lines. 

I am also a big fan of rescuing dogs. There are lots of poodle specific rescues around. 

I got my boy from a reputable breeder and health tested parents. I would have spent probably close to, oh, 12,000$ (just off the top of my head, probably more) over his life in "extra" vet bills alone (I say probably because I am a vet tech and get alot of things for free/discount). He had so many issues over his life, and alot of them were serious/expensive. 
Im lucky that I could handle it and that I have the job/resources at hand to do it. Has it deteried me from getting another poodle from a good breeder? NO. I adore the breed more then any other and need another poodle in my life. Riley was a "fluke" in his litter, and no one else has had the problems he did. I am very thankful that he came to me though. 

Anyways, I always encourage people to go with health testing breeders, but you really cant go wrong with a rescue dog. Just please dont go the BYB route!!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I purchased two poodles from a breeder, rescued two seniors from rescues and adopted a retired stud dog from a breeder. I obviously had to spend a lot on the rescues as they had periodontal disease among other problems typical of senior dogs. I've been lucky in that my breeder MPOOs were healthy overall, along with the retired stud dog who did have his fair share of issues that required an initial $$$ output. 

As others have said, you can get some great dogs via rescue, including young, healthy poodles. Just ask PF member Tyamaca, Sookster, or 3Dogs. Most rescue poodles are fully vetted when you adopt them too.

Mine go to the vet twice a year now that they're adults. The first year of puppy ownership is expensive as you will be at the vet more often. But all in all, it costs me approximately $400-$600 per MPOO per year (titers, CBC/etc. blood tests, heartworm/tick/flea preventative, biannual exams, HW/Lyme/etc. tests, etc.). You're not required to go twice per year but I'd rather be safe than sorry.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I brought a retired female from a good breeder. She is healthy and was wonderfully trained ! I prefer adult dogs , Carley was 6 years old and I have no regrets.

I have rescued 3 dogs. 1 out of the 3 did not issues. All turned out great in a short while. These were not poodles, 2 boxers and 1 shihtuz. The shih tuz had not been well cared for and had eye, ear, teeth infections when I got him, all easy to take care of , as well as worms. He had allergies for years, but maybe that is over now. He was 4 when we got him and he is a healthy 15 year old now.

1 boxer came from the pound and was wonderful ! Heathly and very well trained. She was taken to the pound due to landlord promblems. But was very much loved and cared for before I got her. The other Boxer was so mistreated that a neighbor brought him from the owner and gave him to me to foster... Of course he never left ... he was very untrusting and never thought you had his best interest at heart. If I wanted him in the car, I opened the door and told him DON'T GET IN THAT CAR! He would then get in... so that is how we handle it, never tried to make him do anything. After a few months of love he came around and was a wonderful dog!!! He was healthy too.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I purchased my first standard from a breeder who was able to provide good recommendations from past clients. Supposedly the parents were both fully health tested (not as many health tests back then). I saw most of the health testing results, but forgot to ask for the vWD results. I was assured that they would be in my puppy packet. When it was time to take my puppy home (oh yeah.. I of course picked the most active bouncy puppy in the litter because I didn't know better), I was so excited I didn't check the packet. When I got home, I called and was told she would send them to me, this went on for a few months, I decided to heck with it, and had my girl tested. I was devastated when I found out that she was a carrier for vWD. I knew nothing about genetics or health issues, I had very limited income and saving, looking for and purchasing my girl had taken a couple of years of hardwork. I thought I was getting the perfect princess! I was enraged, called the breeder and did one of those yelling kind of phone calls that no one should ever be on the other end of. Rather than attempting to explain that a carrier of vWD was of little significance to my girl unless I was breeding her, my breeder let me know that I could have her euthanized, send her carcass back and she would send me a replacement puppy (these terms were clearly laid out in our contract). In a bit of defense of the breeder, it turns out that her bitch had been DNA tested clear for vWD, and that the stud owner had told her that the stud was clear. The stud had been tested using a blood test, not a DNA test for vWD. Although the vWD didn't turn out to be a big thing, eventually I did all of my girls health testing, I learned a whole lot more about genetics and genetic issues, modes of inheritance and I bred her once to a stud who was equally well tested (and genetically clear for vWD). Then she started getting "sick", different symptoms. We were in the vet's office, sometimes once a month, sometimes two or three times a week. Finally the Addison's diagnosis came in... but that was a couple of years after the epilepsy diagnosis. Yup, she had both. Many thousands of dollars later... a few poodles later (I still have my original girl, she is very treasured,but getting older every day), I've come to these conclusions about poodles:

there are no health tests for most of the "biggie" issues with poodles, SA, Addison's, Bloat, AIHA

Health is a bit of a crapshoot... and you never REALLY know you have a poodle without health issues until they pass away in their sleep at a very ripe old age... health issues can express at any age

hip dysplasia is multifactorial, with both genetic and environmental influences and causes. Poodle parents with great hips can produce offspring with horrible hips, crating poodles for long hours can cause hip dysplasia, the wrong diets can contribute to hip dysplasia, poor quality xrays frequently are misread....I've seen poodles diagnosed with hip dysplasia who jump and move without a glitch, I've seen poodles with PennHip score of 90th percentile who can't jump/move keep up with other poodles. I am aware of poodles whose xrays indicated they were free of hip dysplasia at a younger age, when redone at an older age have HD. So unless I see generations of bad hips... I'm not too concerned with hip xrays, but am exquisitely concerned with how the parents/grandparents/great grandparents move. 

One of the advantages of getting a poodle from a breeder, vs rescue is that the parentage of said poodle is known, meaning one can "investigate" the health issues in the line. A couple of years ago, I was interested in an adult girl. I spent nearly a week contacting people who have related poodles. I printed out a five generation pedigree, then found owners/breeders of siblings, aunts, uncles, parents, grandparents, great grandparents. I listed all of my questions in advance, so I wouldn't miss any when I contacted these folks. I was very impressed with what I found out about health/longevity. I did turn up a case of Addison's three generations back, but over all, at least during that week, this girl seems to come from a healthy background. Of course I utilized PHR, and Poodle pedigree, but that's just the first step and very tip of the iceberg for me when it comes to investigating health issues. I made the comment that "during that week" the girl comes from a healthy background... that's not set in stone, things can change as time goes on. Any of those living relatives/ancestors can present with a health issue in the future, that may change the risk factors for my girl. When getting a poodle from a rescue, typically the parentage isn't known, so that type of background work can't be done. As most people don't do it anyway, there's not a lot of difference for most people from a health standpoint of breeder vs rescue, if you are getting a poodle, there are risk factors involved.

I also have to add that very few breeders truly check into the health issues in their lines. One of the perks of this (wicked grin), is that they can then honestly claim that they are unaware of any health issues in their lines. I am very, very jaded, and I've found that many breeders do health testing as a way of increasing the marketability of their pups. However, again, testing results don't do a whole lot in the way of protecting poodles from the big nasty health issues so.. ??

As far as behavioral issues, every single poodle with behavioral issues who is in rescue came from a breeder to start with. Those behavioral issues may have started with the breeder, or with the previous owner. But puppies from breeders require attentiveness and training just as a dog from a rescue does. There are poodles in rescue who come from great homes, where there has been a change of circumstance, divorce, home or job loss. There are also sometimes poodles who are being retired from breeding programs available from breeders. 

I wouldn't recommend that someone with no dog experience take on a poodle with known behavioral issues, however, I would certainly encourage someone with no dog experience to consider looking into well adjusted adult dogs from either rescues or breeders. In regards to health issues.. it's a crapshoot.

Again, being very jaded, when folks make comments about cost being more initially when purchasing from a breeder who does health testing, vs obtaining from a shelter, in most cases, this is propaganda..and the more people who believe it, the better for the breeders. However... take a good look at that contract terms each breeder provides. SOMETIMES there is a huge advantage in obtaining a poodle from a breeder because there is protection in the contract should the poodle ever present with a health issue. There is also health insurance that owners can purchase separately that may help in some circumstances to protect against future vet bills. Another perk of purchasing from the breeder is the potential opportunity to meet the parents of the pups and get a bit of an idea of the parents temperaments.. keeping in mind of course, that you aren't purchasing a parent, you are purchasing an offspring who's personality is exquisitely malleable and it's going to be up to you to help form that personality into a wonderful rewarding poodle. There is yet another reason for buying from a breeder, and I consider this to be the biggest and most important reason of them all (which means choose your breeder carefully), SUPPORT! There are breeders out there who are available and willing to be an information resource. My puppy people are welcome to call me anytime, 24 hours a day. Occasionally they will get a voice mail, but I try to make myself available as much as possible. If someone has a dog who is having a health crisis, I would rather hear about it sooner, rather than later... even if it's two oclock in the morning. One of my puppy people obtained a second standard from a different breeder, that poodle had some issues with biting. The breeder of that poodle offered to pick the poodle up and have it euthanised. I also recommended euthanisation at one point (biting dogs are dangerous!). This was not an acceptable resolution to this family and they were willing to put their time, money and 100% of their efforts into correcting the problem. Not something I'm used to dealing with, I networked with many other breeders, continued to be available to the family and due to the efforts, devotion and dedication of this family, their second poodle is once again, a sweet girl, with no aggressive behaviors in more than a couple of years. This was a really tough and awkward situation for me as I didn't have the confidence in the dog that they did, however, I was able to help them by doing the things I know how to do, for instance during their search for a trainers and behaviorists, by making sure that they had lists of people who were actually credentialed or with real experience, not someone claiming to know.. or someone just out of training. I don't know much about biting dogs and I'm able to admit that. So I considered my position one of providing emotional support and trying to make sure that they didn't fall into any "traps" while searching for solutions that worked for them. Most breeders would have washed their hands of this situation immediately. Again, I wasn't the breeder of this poodle, but as they do have one of my poodles in their household, I consider them my "puppy people" and am always available to them for any problems that may arise. If I were obtaining a poodle from a breeder, that would be one of my expectations.. and that is what I consider to be the biggest perk of obtaining a puppy from a breeder vs a rescue... having a knowledgeable resource available for helping with problems that may arise. So then.. I guess I would have to look at not only the health background/temperaments of the poodles, but also the breeders experiences and knowledge foundation.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles - I can hardly believe your breeder had the audacity to put in her contract that you "could have her euthanized, send her carcass back and she would send me a replacement puppy (these terms were clearly laid out in our contract)." I guess you did not read the contract (I imagine many people don't) because I can't see anyone reading that and choosing that person to be their breeder. Thank you for your detailed post - there is so much to consider it is very interesting to read everyone's viewpoints.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I did not know that poodle have all these health issues before this forum ! I was wondering why that is... I just saw a dogs 101 on Poodles and they said that poodles had few health problems. If I remember they gave them 4* for health... I know when I was talking to the breeder about Carley she informed me of all the test that had been done on her for breeding and she scored high on all . I was not even concerned... Now I would be all over that. I have never had a dog with health issues in my life. I did not know that I have been very lucky. So why do you think the poodle has so many things that can go wrong? How do we fix this?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> I did not know that poodle have all these health issues before this forum ! I was wondering why that is... I just saw a dogs 101 on Poodles and they said that poodles had few health problems. If I remember they gave them 4* for health... I know when I was talking to the breeder about Carley she informed me of all the test that had been done on her for breeding and she scored high on all . I was not even concerned... Now I would be all over that. I have never had a dog with health issues in my life. I did not know that I have been very lucky. So why do you think the poodle has so many things that can go wrong? How do we fix this?


*Carley's Mom*, I am surprised, too. All of my poodles and dogs have been healthy and lived long lives. I'd like to know if these things are coming from research or "natural" progression of other things. 

Louisiana is one of TWO states to NOT approve the 3-year vaccination law. The vet school is in Baton Rouge and at the mercy of the legislators, who are at the mercy of un-elected companies and oganizations. It seems that dogs are way down the ladder, when it comes to importance in the scheme of things.

I can't speak to breeding poodles, so I have to concentrate on other possible causes. Bad food, over-medication, questionable veterinary practices can also be to blame. And I am as much at a loss as anyone to have any solutions. Guess I'm jaded, too.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

CT Girl said:


> Yaddaluvpoodles - I can hardly believe your breeder had the audacity to put in her contract that you "could have her euthanized, send her carcass back and she would send me a replacement puppy (these terms were clearly laid out in our contract)." I guess you did not read the contract (I imagine many people don't) because I can't see anyone reading that and choosing that person to be their breeder. Thank you for your detailed post - there is so much to consider it is very interesting to read everyone's viewpoints.


Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Comments like these are exactly why I remain a lurker most of the time. I shared as a way of being helpful. Not to put myself in the crosshairs of judgementalism and condemnation. When I post, it's usually with an attempt to try to provide some sort of information, I like to share information, I like to learn from other people, but I don't appreciate anyone thinking they have the right to judge me. Everyone makes mistakes and it would be a much nicer world if there was a lot less judging and condemning. 

1) I don't appreciate the implication that I'm lying. Yes, this contract did say that, although the some of the wording was a bit more subtle, the word "carcass" is included... and as it was not only my first poodle, it was my first purebred, it was the first dog I had ever purchased and this girl was going to be the dog of my dreams, I was totally ignorant of unethical breeders. 

I used to think that, in general there were a lot of good people out there and if things went wrong, people were willing to make them right. I've learned.. a little. If I learned more.. I would probably quit posting publicly. There is a whole lot of meanness in the world

2) How dare you presume anything about me? Whether or not I read the contract? This was no impulse decision it was well thought out with care that, quite honestly, I've rarely seen in most poodle owners. The contract was carefully worded, as it was simply beyond my comprehension that anyone would consider putting a dog down that wasn't on it's deathbed, I did not realize the full implication of the wording.

3) I can assure you that there are many, many poodle owners out there with the same contract from the same breeder. I have no idea how many read the contract, or realized the potential implications. I am aware of a number who have had health issues with related poodles.

I don't ever mind anyone disagreeing with me and sharing their point of view, that's how folks learn and grow, but I hate finger pointing, condemnation..etc. I screwed up, and I freely admit it. I share it publicly so that others won't make that same mistake, not so that I can be publicly slammed. Please believe me when I say that I have paid for my mistakes in full. 

Some of us are sensitive, please be gentle!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Do Poodles, as a breed, have more health problems than other recognized breeds? Surely they have much less than some...


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Cb, I know English Bulldogs have more health problems and I am sure there are others as well. But I always thought poodles were a healthy breed. I may not have carley had I known... I try to stay away from heartbreak... so I guess it was good that I did not know. If Whippets did not shed , I really wanted one of those.


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