# Black pups with white hairs in pads equals blue?



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok so I for what ever reason decided to look at all my puppies pads and you guessed it I saw white hairs. I have seen (can't find where anymore) and heard that white or silver hairs in pads means I either have silver or blues in my litter of three "black" pups. Now this is a predominantly black/brown lineage here. In the puppies, they have creams and whites back about 7 generations.. Mostly from mom's side. From then on were almost all black with some brown sprinkled in.
So then I checked out their genetic info and COI... One of their top contributing ancestors (twice on dads side once on moms) has two silvers and a blue in their background! These dogs go ten generations back from pups. Does the white hairs, and I don't mean a few in their paws, mean I really have blues on my hands... Or nothing at all... Only two pups have the white hairs.. Does anyone have experience with this? How likely are they to be blues.. They are like 11 days old. I would prefer to have them registered properly... I have heard many a blue are registered as blacks as many breeders don't know what to look for...
I should add the two silvers (both from silver parents) produced a "black"... And the blue was bred with a black and produced a BROWN!!! So is it possible for the blue gene to trickle on down with the brown gene? By the way the "black produced from the silvers was bred to the brown produced from the black/blue pair lol. Everything else from that point are blacks and some browns... My bitch carries the brown gene... Hope I didn't lose anyone, it's late lol!! Thanks!!!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Almost every black dog has a few, and sometimes it is only 3 or 4, white hairs here or there. That said, I have been told numerous times that white hairs on the bottoms of paws= silver or blue. You don't find them on blacks and it doesn't signify a fading black. I suspect you will not know what you have - blue or silver - until you shave faces.  

Brown in a pedigree seems to mess with the other colors. If I had my druthers brown would only ever be bred to black and visa versa. When you throw a cream or apricot in you can get odd colors/incorrect or fading points and the like pop up generations later.

If both the female and male had blue, and the same line of blue, I bet there is a much higher chance of getting a blue. A true blue (all one color steel blue/grey) is a beautiful color, but there are a lot of 'blues' that I don't really consider blue. The trick is getting a true blue. The blues do go through color changes, which usually entails some brown highlights. I was told a blue puppy will often appear black, but will shine mahogany deep brown in the sunlight when little. That's what makes me think brown contributes to blue somehow. 

Now you have me very curious and interested to know what you have! I hope you post pictures!

In an aside, my soon to be mini puppy has an apricot in the litter. I swear it is an apricot. There are no known apricots on either side, but there is a brown line on one side. The litter was expected to be all black, but there are two creams (one lighter than the other), an apricot (I mean the puppy is a totally different shade of orange than the creams) and two blacks (without the white hairs on the paws). Go figure!

If you breed her again and don't use the same sire, I bet you won't get any blues or silvers. Silvers are quite stunning. When you shave the faces there will be no denying it if you have a silver. Can't wait to see pictures!

This picture shows a true blue next to a black.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Yep like you from everything I have heard or read the white hairs on the pads of the feet mean you could have silvers or blues. That first face shave will tell you which you have. The silvers will already have pale faces by 6 to 8 weeks. Blue and black can be harder to tell as it may take another groom or two before the blue face is light enough to say there is a difference in color between it and the body. Grin the breeder my blues came from marks all her new born puppies as black/blue/silver since she knows all three can occur in her lines. But by that 6 week face shave the silvers are already easy to tell, same with her silver beige but the first face shave she knew it was a silver beige but it took longer to decide that Phoenix was a cafe'

Looking forward to seeing your puppies change colors. And yes to answer you questions recessives are forever and even more then 10 generations back they can pop up and bite you...


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think color wise a pedigree can be full of mid information. Many Poodles do not clear until 2-3 years of age. Most are registered as pups & most do not bother to change the coloration. So many Blues ate Registered as Black. On one of my Dams the pedigree has "Grey/Gray" 2 or 3 times well is this a "true blue" or are the fogs actually Silver? Is my Dam which I registered as a Black Abstract actually a Blue Abstract since she started to change her coat color in the hind end & working itself forward? Also had the classic "brown tinge" to coat. She will be 3 this month, the brown tinge has been gone since she started to change coat color about the last 6 months.

As you can a pedigree is more of a guidline & think the dogs should be registered a 2nd time around 3 with correct colors. My first litter produced 1 Silver & waiting to see what the other turns out to be but either Black or Blue. I used a Blue Sire with my Abstract. My Silver has white in paws but is also a mismark so did not help in this discussion.

Herd is my Silver at 5 wks I believe.


----------



## Maggie B (Jul 8, 2013)

My Mila was sold to me as a black, and I had never even heard of a blue. (She's my first poodle so I was relatively new to all of the colors). Imagine my surprise when she started developing brownish/red tinges on her face and legs at around 4 months, I thought my black was turning into a brown! After some research I found out that wasn't possible and started learning about blues. At that point I checked her paws and each had a crop of silver hairs on the bottom. 

Now at 11 months the brown tinge has spread further, but the spots that were brown the earliest have now changed to grey, especially her face when cleanly shaven. Here ears are also grey on the edges. I'm pretty sure she's blue but I don't really care what color she ends up! Her Dam was black and her sire was a silver parti. 

You can see some recent pictures in this thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/9-poodle-grooming/70938-mila-got-groomed-today.html

My avatar is her at 9-10 weeks.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My understanding of how it works is that two blacks (or a black and a blue) can definitely produce a brown. Brown is recessive and if both parents carry the brown gene, they could produce a brown pup. Black (or blue or silver) dogs that do not carry the brown gene are BB. Black (or blue or silver) dogs that do carry the brown gene are Bb. Brown is recessive, so a Bb dog would look black (or blue or silver), not brown. But if both of the parents are Bb and each one gives a 'b' to a puppy, then the puppy would be bb or brown (or a dilute of brown).

I am surprised to hear you say that 2 silvers produced a black. Are you sure that the dog was still black as an adult? My understanding is that any black puppies born to 2 silvers will clear to silver and any black puppies born to 2 blacks (if they really are blacks) will remain black. I agree that there are lots of blue puppies that are registered as black because they have not yet cleared when they are registered.


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

In the above post of mine the Silver face was obvious outside, still had black coat & if you noticed her paw has white marking on it (mismark). Here is s photo of her at 13 weeks. Clipped down to "Clear" the coat as fast ad possible.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

outwest said:


> Almost every black dog has a few, and sometimes it is only 3 or 4, white hairs here or there. That said, I have been told numerous times that white hairs on the bottoms of paws= silver or blue. You don't find them on blacks and it doesn't signify a fading black. I suspect you will not know what you have - blue or silver - until you shave faces.
> 
> Brown in a pedigree seems to mess with the other colors. If I had my druthers brown would only ever be bred to black and visa versa. When you throw a cream or apricot in you can get odd colors/incorrect or fading points and the like pop up generations later.
> 
> ...


Well her son from another litter(tightly line bred) has that brown cast in he sun.. And his sister doesn't but he looks only marginally lighter that her and they are like 3-4yrs old.. Their brother was a brown. I don't know if here were any white hairs in the paws.. 
My Eve's litter sisters were "champagne".. They looked like reddish oak... More than likely apricot.. They looked white at a couple days old. It was a black and white line however after looking at the vertical pedigree I saw a red in there.. Just not directly in the pedigree


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

3dogs said:


> Herd is my Silver at 5 wks I believe.


How cute! Her son from another litter had the brown cast but is marginally lighter than his sister... Would this be a dark blue? 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Maggie B said:


> My Mila was sold to me as a black, and I had never even heard of a blue. (She's my first poodle so I was relatively new to all of the colors). Imagine my surprise when she started developing brownish/red tinges on her face and legs at around 4 months, I thought my black was turning into a brown! After some research I found out that wasn't possible and started learning about blues. At that point I checked her paws and each had a crop of silver hairs on the bottom.
> 
> Now at 11 months the brown tinge has spread further, but the spots that were brown the earliest have now changed to grey, especially her face when cleanly shaven. Here ears are also grey on the edges. I'm pretty sure she's blue but I don't really care what color she ends up! Her Dam was black and her sire was a silver parti.
> 
> ...


Cute baby! I wonder how dark a blue can be and still be considered blue?


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

peppersb said:


> My understanding of how it works is that two blacks (or a black and a blue) can definitely produce a brown. Brown is recessive and if both parents carry the brown gene, they could produce a brown pup. Black (or blue or silver) dogs that do not carry the brown gene are BB. Black (or blue or silver) dogs that do carry the brown gene are Bb. Brown is recessive, so a Bb dog would look black (or blue or silver), not brown. But if both of the parents are Bb and each one gives a 'b' to a puppy, then the puppy would be bb or brown (or a dilute of brown).
> 
> I am surprised to hear you say that 2 silvers produced a black. Are you sure that the dog was still black as an adult? My understanding is that any black puppies born to 2 silvers will clear to silver and any black puppies born to 2 blacks (if they really are blacks) will remain black. I agree that there are lots of blue puppies that are registered as black because they have not yet cleared when they are registered.


I have no clue they are probably long gone by now. I merely looked up the pedigree.. Found the silvers and it only went back to their dams and sires which were also silvers. The dog is listed as black however, not sure if it really is a black or blue.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Here is a picture of the hairs which are more apparent in person









Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Aaahh..puppy feet.  cute!
Hard to tell, but that looks like some white hairs to me. You'll have to let us know if all this 'white hair on bottom of paws=silver or blue' is really true. I have not direct experience with it, only what breeders have said. 

When do you shave faces?


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Zeph had white hairs between her pads as a pup but is definitely not blue her sire however produced blues with a different bitch.
Kit has a few white hairs between her paws and I suspect she'll be blue, her dam is a blue out of two browns.
I'll get some pics tomorrow when I shave her face, right now she's all tuckered out after our big plane ride.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> Cute baby! I wonder how dark a blue can be and still be considered blue?


A blue can be very dark. I had a blue poodle staying with me for a week a few months ago. She is the daughter of a silver spoo, so genetically she is blue. Her owner, a breeder, could tell the difference. But the average person would think that she was black. She has a slightly lighter face (often the face and feet of a blue are lighter) and if she is next to a black poodle, you can see a very slight difference in color.


----------



## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

hmmm Zeph looks like a dark blue to me....


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

outwest said:


> Aaahh..puppy feet.  cute!
> Hard to tell, but that looks like some white hairs to me. You'll have to let us know if all this 'white hair on bottom of paws=silver or blue' is really true. I have not direct experience with it, only what breeders have said.
> 
> When do you shave faces?


Probably in a couple weeks. The thing is if they are blues they will be very dark blues and will be hard to tell I feel. I have kinda wondered if my bitch was a blue since she has had that brown cast.. But she's a very dark blue if she is.. I normally shave my dogs faces with a 50, altho I start pups with a 10 until they get used to it. I should mention I'm using a night time reptile heat lamp.. It looks like a black light the two suspected pups had a purple hue while the black bitch was closer and did not have this hue and was darker ...hmmmm



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Anntig said:


> Zeph had white hairs between her pads as a pup but is definitely not blue her sire however produced blues with a different bitch.
> Kit has a few white hairs between her paws and I suspect she'll be blue, her dam is a blue out of two browns.
> I'll get some pics tomorrow when I shave her face, right now she's all tuckered out after our big plane ride.


What blade do you use? For faces that is


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The white hairs can mean blue, but it's not a sure thing.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

peppersb said:


> A blue can be very dark. I had a blue poodle staying with me for a week a few months ago. She is the daughter of a silver spoo, so genetically she is blue. Her owner, a breeder, could tell the difference. But the average person would think that she was black. She has a slightly lighter face (often the face and feet of a blue are lighter) and if she is next to a black poodle, you can see a very slight difference in color.


Thanks pepper, I think that is the kind of blues we are dealing with here if that's the case. My bitch had/ has a brown cast to her.. It looks black while its short but then slowly browns and she's hardly in the sun... My toy poodle was born, I assume black abstract. She was all black with a white spot on her chest and chin.. The spot on the chest went away but the one on the chin spread over her muzzle even at a young age.. People thought she was old at 5 yrs. anyway when my mini bitch and her are next to each other she has a more vibrant black and she's twice her age. My toy doesn't have the brown cast either.. There isn't a dramatic difference between the two colors, but it's enough for me to notice. Particularly in the sun, it's not so clear inside the house



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> The white hairs can mean blue, but it's not a sure thing.


How much white hairs would mean blue? A couple white hairs I wouldn't worry about but the white tufts spread across the two middle toes. And only two of the three have it, the other has no white hairs that I saw.. I'm goin to have to take a look at all of them again


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

When I got Jazzy the entire litter was black, but there was a range of black. Two of the puppies had a brown sheen to the black. Others were inky black or black-black. Each on their own looked entirely black. It was only when they were all lumped together that the range of blackness was noticeable. I noticed it at 2 weeks and then it was more pronounced at 4 weeks. I still think if you have tufts of white hairs under the paws they will be something other than black/black, but you may not know, especially if they are dark blue, until a couple years from now. 

Jazz is 18 months old and he is still quite black. We'll see what happens over the next year.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> How much white hairs would mean blue? A couple white hairs I wouldn't worry about but the white tufts spread across the two middle toes. And only two of the three have it, the other has no white hairs that I saw.. I'm goin to have to take a look at all of them again
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't have a clue! I just have been told by several different mentor breeders and handlers that it can mean blue, but not always.

The black puppies in my litter have some white hairs in their paws, too. And I've heard other breeders notice this on their blacks (not blues.). I'm wondering if it's more common than we realize. My black puppies are as black as can be (of course they are only newborns) but anyway, it's unlikely they will be blue, though not impossible.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok so the pups are 7 weeks old now.. The white hairs grew out, and gave them all haircuts.. I used a ten on the face, any thoughts? The boy (blue) does have a brown sheen.. The red girl a slight brown sheen, and she didn't have the white hairs that I saw











Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Forgot to paste this photo lol. These are the girls.. The other post had all three... Hard to see green girl tho lol









Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm not going to be helpeful at all - just wanted to say - They're gorgeous!!!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I've talked to quite a few breeders who routinely see white hairs in the paw pads of their blacks. I don't remember what colors you have in the pedigree, but if you weren't expecting blues I think they probably are black.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

We'll here a few pix of mom with her babies. Is mom a blue or still considered black?....she has no white hairs and is 5 1/2.. He face is shaved with a 50. They are a black/brown (heavy on the black) pedigree up until approx 10 gen ago.. Then u see white and cream.. Then blue and silver.. At least thru one common ancestor... Now I didn't go thru all their ancestors just the ones in their COI, that's how I started the search.. I also didnt look at all the vertical pedigrees.
























Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I don't care what color they call her - she's stunning. 
Such a pretty little Mama.


----------



## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> What blade do you use? For faces that is
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


whoops sorry forgot to come back to this thread, I use a #40 rev on faces.

Your girl looks like a black to me , the pups are gorgeous, such sweet little faces, the bad news is I don't think you'll be able to tell for sure whether they're blue or black for a couple of months at least, the earliest I've seen a blue start to fade is 4 months and some don't start till much later.
One thing I've noticed is that blues tend to have a different texture to their coat, all the blues I've met have an adult coat that's softer and woollier than the blacks, the puppy coat however is no different , Kit's now 13 weeks today and as yet shows no sign of being blue, however since she's from a blue/cream mating it's almost definite she'll be blue.
This girl who is a groom client of mine showed the first signs of fading at 18weeks and has taken 2 1/2 years to actually have any "blue" visible, up until her most recent groom she looked very much like a brown (I know it's not a great photo but it does show the face which is done with a #15 and definitely looks blue now)


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Ok I finally got around to getting pictures of these guys please don't mind them they need another groom but you can see the difference in coat color between long older coat and shorter grown out coat especially on the little bitch. Which is more apparent now than when she was a pup
























































Please excuse mom she's part lab and 6.. The little imp in the back will be 11 on Xmas .. Added them for perspective.. Even added a black oil bottle and the xpen is sun bleached so couldn't use that. Mom went thru the same color as the girl.. The boy doesn't have as much browning as the girl .. Ok now that you have better pix to look at lol.. What color?! I registered them as black.

ETA: I should add boy is blue wraps and girl lavender.. Plus their half brother had same coloring as well


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

*bump*
Any thoughts ? Black or Blue?


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

They both look black to me. The reddish tinge to the coat looks like bronzing from the sun.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Awwwww, now.... here I go repeating myself again.

"Black pups with white hairs in pads equals" whatever colour you want. 

I'm partial to Gun-Metal Black. It's my latest made up colour.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> They both look black to me. The reddish tinge to the coat looks like bronzing from the sun.



They both have the same amount of exposure to the sun but the bitch is considerably more sun bleached. The dog has as much sun bleach as his sire did. It's really weird. The bitch and half brother had the same amount of browning and he lives up north. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> Awwwww, now.... here I go repeating myself again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol mom looks a little gun metal black !


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

"Ken"







"Ken"







"Miya"
Just showing their pretty faces


----------



## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

This blue thing is confounding. My girl is 6 months now and her breeder was unequivocal that she would be blue - mom is a gorgeous blue, father black. One of my spoos was a silver and white parti and the fading was so early. At every groom now, Magda's face stays black but there are more and more white hairs mixed in. I expected more of an overall fading, but from reading all of these blue posts, I guess the colour change is less linear than with the silvers. Hmmmmm.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I thought Blues took 2-3 years to completely clear out


----------



## thecasualchemist (Nov 5, 2014)

My girl was sold to me as a black, but the very first groomer I ever took her to when she was a wee little puppy told me she was "without a doubt" a blue. 
I've done a bit of research over the years, but I could never come up with anything definitive. She has a history of blue in her lineage, but her dam was a black, and her sire was a silver parti. 

She has the white tufts on the underside of her paws, between her toes. It isn't a couple hairs - it's a good dime-sized chunk of white hair. That said, she just turned 4 and I haven't noticed a dramatic color change. Then again, she's the first poodle I've ever owned, and I wouldn't really know what to look for.

I could try to post some pictures of it, and of her to get the opinion of some of the experts here on the forum.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I find the whole blue thing confusing.. Some are very apparently blue and others are almost black.. I wondered if mine were the latter but who knows.. It was weird that so far it seems that it has something to do with the brown in their genes? Altho the boy is more black than his sister..


----------



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

our two week old black puppy has white on the tips of her toes on both back feet, and looks like white hairs in pads of front feet. I've been doing some reading today on abstract, mismarked & blues, and then I came across this thread and am even more confused than ever!!! This will be our first poodle (standard) and its a steep learning curve, I'm looking for your opinions. Love her whatever she is, but very curious about it


----------



## TerryLynn (Oct 25, 2014)

Here is a pic of Duke, he is supposted to be silver , and his hair is changing colors more and more every day















his dad is black and his mom is a blue


----------



## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Here is a horrible pic of Ash. She was Inky black when a baby and had white in the bottoms of the pads. This is part of her progress of turning blue.


----------



## TerryLynn (Oct 25, 2014)

Yes that is what Duke looks like, so I guess he will be a blue. Do you have a current pic of him


----------



## TerryLynn (Oct 25, 2014)

I mean her.


----------



## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

This is only from a few weeks ago. So not much change. Just longer hair


----------

