# Thoughts on Klaus Poodles, West Coast Poodles, and KayeKids Poodles???



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

As far as the first two breeders, what are they doing with their dogs besides breeding them? They don't seem to be doing much in the way of titling them in anything. The third breeder's website is beyond skimpy, but it does look like they show in conformation?

Breeding dogs are the ones that need to be health tested, to ensure that they don't pass along deleterious conditions. These are the minimum tests for Miniature Poodles, which are required for an OFA Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) number.

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)DNA-based prcd-PRA (Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration) test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFAACVO Eye ExamEye Examination by a boarded ACVO OphthalmologistPatellar LuxationOFA evaluation, minimum age 1 yearHip Dysplasia_One of the following:_
OFA Evaluation
PennHIP Evaluation


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Sometimes puppies are tested, but usually only if an accurate genetic marker exists for a condition, and both parents are carriers. In that case, puppies will need to be tested to find their genetic status.


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## kaya12 (5 mo ago)

TeamHellhound said:


> As far as the first two breeders, what are they doing with their dogs besides breeding them? They don't seem to be doing much in the way of titling them in anything. The third breeder's website is beyond skimpy, but it does look like they show in conformation?
> 
> Breeding dogs are the ones that need to be health tested, to ensure that they don't pass along deleterious conditions. These are the minimum tests for Miniature Poodles, which are required for an OFA Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) number.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I didn't know that there were tests that mini poodles should have. But yes, it seems that way: Klaus Poodles and West Coast Poodles simply breed their dogs and KayeKids show their dogs (although I admit that the website doesn't look the most convincing).


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

kaya12 said:


> I see that they test the parents, but not the puppies.





kaya12 said:


> I read that puppies should be health tested as well as the parents to ensure that the puppies are healthy but on these sites, I only see that the parents were health tested. What are your thoughts or recommendations?


This is a complicated question: Which tests are you talking about, can the tests even be run on puppies, and are the tests appropriate for puppies?

Normally breeders do not run genetic tests on puppies they plan to sell as pets. The breeder should have instead tested the parents and avoided pairing dogs which might produce unhealthy puppies. However, I have encountered two exceptions where breeders did do genetic testing on puppies. One was a litter with two sires, and the breeder needed to identify which puppy came from which papa in order to register them properly. The other was when a breeder was trying to decide which puppies to hold back for her breeding program. The breeder wanted to identify all the carriers of some particular recessives before making her decision.

It's also unusual for a breeder to run orthopedic screenings on puppies. Puppies are simply too young to get any sort of meaningful results at the age when the breeder would be sending them off to their new homes.

However, there are tests which are performed on puppies rather than adults. Some breeders perform temperament testing, such as Volhard, before making a final decision on which puppies go to which families. And of course all breeders should have taken puppies in to the vet for a wellness check and a first set of shots before Gotcha Day.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Klaus Poodles would be immediately off my recommendation list as they cross breed. 
From the Poodle Club of America Code of Ethics:
*As a Breeder, I*

Plan each breeding selectively toward the goal on improvement of the Poodle, not purely for financial gain
Keep accurate records as per AKC rules and regulations
Test all breeding stock , as appropriate, for each variety’s genetic and acquired disorders
Remain abreast of new genetic testing available and readily participates in current genetic studies


*Never intentionally allow a Poodle to be bred to any other breed*


Screen prospective buyers or individuals with whom a dog is placed
Provide a written contract for all interactions involving the breeding, selling, co-owning, placing and rehoming of my stock
Sell puppies with individual records to include:
A Bill of Sale stating the conditions (terms) on which the sale was made
A Pedigree of at least 3 generations
Up-to-date health record
Proof of genetic/acquired condition testing
A reasonable time frame for a return
Never release a puppy before 8 weeks
Sell non-breeding quality puppies with limited registration
Require all non-breeding quality puppies sold to be neutered/spayed

Assume responsibility for the well-being of all dogs sold including taking back adults in emergency situations and finding homes for rescues that have been identified from my breeding when possible
As part of my selection as a member of PCA, I acknowledge the responsibilities inherit in that membership and pledge to follow the Code of Ethics of the Poodle Club of America. In addition, if I find I am no longer willing to abide by this document, I agree to submit my resignation form PCA.

Kayekids is a well-regarded breeder and worth looking into. Here's their testing on the OFA site:
Advanced Search | OFA 

TeamHellhound and cowpony have given good info. 

I'll add some resources for you.
These are tips on researching and selecting quality, conscientious breeders. It can be helpful as a reminder if you've recently gone thru this and especially if this is new to you or has been some years. Things have changed.

You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

A quality breeder isn't location dependent. Their characteristics are the same everywhere.


*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .
Outside of covid, these breeders will almost always welcome, even encourage, home visits to see the puppies and dam in person and see how they live.

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pup's life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Doing the PCA recommended health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
For example, some breeders require that a specific food be bought and fed, often thru them, or the health warranty is curtailed or voided entirely.

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. *Most poodle colors fade.

Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*When looking at online sites, it's not just what you see, it's often what you don't see that's most important.*
Is the dam (and sire) also listed on the site, with full registry name and OFA testing?

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.

----

A quality conscientious breeder doesn't have to be a PCA member to follow the Code of Ethics. I believe that every breeder should.
Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I would trust a referral from Eleni at Moonstruck any day!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

When evaluating breeders, remember you’re not looking for slick marketing. If I trusted someone’s expertise and ethics, and they referred me to a breeder, I wouldn’t let a sparse or outdated website stop me from contacting them. Good word of mouth trumps all that stuff.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

Have you reached out to the PCA Breeder Referral? I would start there as the screen who they refer to: PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I would trust a referral from Eleni at Moonstruck any day!




She was a great resource when I was looking for my boy.


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## kaya12 (5 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I would trust a referral from Eleni at Moonstruck any day!


Thank you!


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## kaya12 (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Klaus Poodles would be immediately off my recommendation list as they cross breed.
> From the Poodle Club of America Code of Ethics:
> *As a Breeder, I*
> 
> ...



Thank you so much!!!


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