# Soft temperament puppies



## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

Dodger has a personality like that, she's very skittish and if people are yelling or being loud around her it makes her very uncomfortable even if its not at her if people are just loud in general it makes her very uneasy. Kids screaming bothers her quite a bit although she actually loves kids and will go up to them without hesitation.

I know she was never socialized as a puppy and was basically just a in-house couch dog until she came to live with me..she's still a spoiled rotten brat but she gets a lot more social interaction going with me to the grooming salon, to the park, out jogging, etc.... so she has slowly but surely started coming out of her shell more and more.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Okay here's the deal. Jasper is very very soft in temperament. I don't know if that's just him or how he was socialized as a puppy and I don't know how to work with him. He gets afraid easily and will shy away and run when he doesn't want to do something or if he's unsure of the situation. Harry wasn't like that. He has his own issues but overall at least he's always been a very outgoing and confident dog. Do you think that this is how Jasper is going to be for the rest of his life or as he grows he'll just gain more confidence? Is this just a puppy thing?


That is Ponki's personality.... I don't think you'd be able to change that, dogs are born either dominant or submissive - that is just how mother nature designed it. That is why it's very important (IMO) for breeders to know how to select puppies and should be able to help and educate buyers on buying the right dog to suit their family.

You can however influence it slightly by either doing activities that boosts their self confidence and desensitize them to things that they are scared off or control their dominant behaviors. 

Ponki is 3 now and she is very social. I don't force her into situations if she shows signs of fear. I usually introduce her very slowly to things she are afraid of. But she is a very sensitive girl, sometimes she still tries to climb under my skin when the dobes bark at something.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Right now Olie is neutral for the most part, I still am unsure as he is young also, but he acts pretty much the same way. If he is not interested he will turn the other way. He seems pretty independent.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

How are you training Jasper? It could be a little bit of his age right now. It might get worse though depending on how you handle it now. Are you doing any training exercises with him? Teaching him some commands or things he can do will help up his confidence. Praise him alot when he does them. Be Very careful on how you train them though! NO corrections or anything, and always end on a positive note! Take him out busy places and just sit/stand and feed him treats. Associate noise/busy with treats/fun!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

It's impossible for me not to correct him ever. I mean he does make mistakes and I have to correct him. Also I groom him myself for showing and I have to be firm with him or he will move and I'll cut him or cut the hair where I don't want it. I don't overcorrect him in grooming but I have to get a firm hold on him and he doesn't like it. 

As far as the training goes, I've done leash training and down and back training with food. He likes food. I use a positive voice and reinforcement and no corrections. I've done the command "stand" with food and only corrected if he jumped up on me but just the nooo in a soft voice.

The problem with my situation is that I chose him based on his looks for showing and not his temperament to fit in with me and my family. That's the biggest issue.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I wouldn't say you shouldn't make any corrections, but I would suggest you do soft corrections. (as you mentioned, you don't over correct - which is a good thing) But you also don't want to correct in a way that is hard or harsh - a soft "no" always works with Ponki, without creating a submissive behavior. And when I say soft I mean I do a soft but firm, low-toned "NO"
Or just a firm poke with 2 fingers. (You might use your hand to poke and redirect attention, as you have a bigger dog?) 
(by using your hand to poke, I mean make kind of a tiger claw using your hand and poke with your fingers LOL )


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

KPoos said:


> The problem with my situation is that I chose him based on his looks for showing and not his temperament to fit in with me and my family. That's the biggest issue.


What does this mean?

I'm sure there wont be drastic changes.... This may not fit your needs.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Of Primates, Canines and Communications . . .*

KPoos,
I can share my experiences and others that are far smarter than I am on this matter - your mileage may vary! . . . From questions last to first . . 


Is this 'just a puppy thing' - yes and no.
Yes, normally very brave boisterous puppies will go through a couple of "I'm jumpy and afraid of everything" phases during their growth spurts. It is theorized that calcium ion deficiencies in the brain (or something like that) modify behavior temporarily. No change in your treatment towards them during this time is a good idea - see below.
No, some dogs have a genetic pre-disposition to shyness. Your can remove a lot of this, but a little bit will always be there if this is the case. Your persistence and early intervention is key.
How to solve this? Under no circumstance should you pay more attention to your dog when they engage in an avoidance behavior or act in a shy, withdrawn or nervous manner. You must absolutely avoid the primate tendency to hold, cradle, hug and protect your dog when shows a startle reflex, shies away and etc. In this case, you are are positively re-enforcing bad behavior and your dog will forever be stuck in that behavior - a pity. Your must positively reinforce brave, assertive (*NOT* aggressive), and friendly behavior and ignore or scold (NOT punish) all others - no matter the source. If they act in a negative manner, first scold and then totally ignore them until his/her behavior changes in that situation. Dogs are very smart, and will act in the way that gains them the most attention with the least amount of effort.
 
Do you think that this is how Jasper is going to be for the rest of his life or as he grows he'll just gain more confidence?
See above related answers. You have a huge influence on how your dog turns out. Our girl, Samantha, still shows from time to time 'surface weirdness' tactile sensitivity from time to time in that she'll 'high step' through tall or wet grass. We don't miss an opportunity to scold her and ensure that she spends extra time on that grass when she displays that behavior. She used to do it for cement, tile, carpet and other strange surfaces. She showed fear of cars (parked) garbage cans, etc. We walked her up to the fear source and forced her to touch it with her paws and praise her during that time. At no time did we ever ever wrap our arms around her and croon . . oh poor baby . . I'm so sorry you are afraid . . blah blah . . that just continues to encourage that behavior. Never do this - you have just doomed your dog to not being able to socialize.
 
Okay here's the deal. Jasper is very very soft in temperament. I don't know if that's just him or. . .
Poodles, by nature, like most other working dogs ( I believe that poodles occupy a unique niche as both sporting and working dogs) have a soft temperament. Mastiffs (think very big) are notoriously soft, and will act as if you destroyed their world if you yell at them! Poodles aren't much different(except a whole lot smarter - i know - I've owned both).
Soft temperament does not mean fearful or shy - they are very different things.
 
 Your attitude should be that whatever your puppy shows fear of, they get more of it - not less! If s/he backs away from parked cars ( like ours did ), an hour walk each day right next to parked cars and forcing her/him to touch that car with a paw. This puppy should socialized like mad, more pet smart, petco, walking, public places, air shows, loud noises and suprises. Bang two pots together in the morning time right before meal time, have small children crawl all over them(figuratively - not literally), randomly hold on to their tails and praise their nonchalant attitude towards it (don't pull hard!) . . . De-sensitize! Inspect his/her teeth, ears, between their toes and tweak the nose! (gently!) This will build confidence, and of course you'll be praising him/her like crazy while your pup is doing the right thing and not acknowledge anything that smacks of a fear/nervousness/shyness/indecision/etc. Some might claim that this is cruel, but I believe it to far crueler to deny your dog proper socialization that will doom them to being unable to interact with or people, dogs and places. 
Our Samantha seems to know what is coming next when she tries her little 'high-stepping' tactile averse routine - she'll be playing there for quite some time! Her face will fall and kind of get that 'oh damn' look when she realizes what she's done. If you're afraid of it - you'll get more of it! They know that fear and inappropriate behavior is NOT rewarded and we will act accordingly.
Also, don't underestimate the value of nutrition and its relationship to behavior. If the first ingredients on your food is corn or wheat - find another. You will never see a wolf in the wild grazing amongst the corn and wheat fields . . . they eat and need meat! Avoid food with sugar beets in the ingredients - it makes their poop 'look better' than it really is. Monitor your dogs 'output', does it look normal? Try 'free feeding' (food available all day long), this might discourage gorging. Praise them when they belch! Poodles are susceptible to bloat, and if they belch - they probably aren't bloating! Don't change food very often, dogs are conservative by nature.

Good Luck!
You have a lot of (enjoyable) work ahead of you! Socialize Socialize and when they (or you!) are about ready to drop dead with boredom - socialize more! Early intervention now will make the difference while they are still young. Do more research and see what others might think as well . . . I can only relay my experiences . . .

Warm Regards,
Mark, Jamie and the Poodle Gangsters . . . 



KPoos said:


> Okay here's the deal. Jasper is very very soft in temperament. I don't know if that's just him or. . . Do you think that this is how Jasper is going to be for the rest of his life or as he grows he'll just gain more confidence? Is this just a puppy thing?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Olie said:


> What does this mean?
> 
> I'm sure there wont be drastic changes.... This may not fit your needs.


It means that out of the litter, I didn't go there looking for a specific temperament for our family as a family pet. I wanted the best structural dog that I could have for showing. I didn't think of temperament at all for some reason. I guess because the puppies were so young and because I just assumed that any dog could be shown, I didn't talk to the breeder about temperaments. I just assumed she'd know temperaments that were acceptable and ones that weren't since she knew my situation.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Mark, thank you for your response. I have started some of the desensitization with him by pulling on parts of his body that cause response. If he's grabbed, he screams. So I've kind of tugged his ears (not hard) and grabbed his side (biggie with him crying and again not hard) and played rough with him. So far all that's done is create more fear in him but I've only been doing it for a couple of days. Today I went to pull him out of his crate and he bit me out of fear response because I had a hold of his front legs to pull him out. I thought he had gotten a paw caught or something so I let go and looked and no there was nothing caught or wrong with him, he was just afraid of being pulled. He doesn't like rough firm handling at all. He will cower and cry even when it's in play. He's started not following me and won't come to me when I call him. I've become the source of his fear now. He doesn't like me picking him up and he's pretty difficult on the grooming table because he wants to get away. I know that this is normal behavior but if I have to get a firm grip on him he gets more afraid.

I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I don't think he's afraid of new people or situations but I'll start taking him out more and exposing him more to different people and hands and handling classes.

I wanted to also add that what I've read about standard poodles is that because they are a sporting breed they tend to be more independent and can bond closely with their families, almost too close. I have found Harry to be the ideal example for that definition.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Start small . . . little victories are sweet!*

How old is your pup? I'd take him/her to the vet immediately for a complete screening. I'm far from an expert, but I believe that thyroid issues can affect behavior. Make sure you tell them the behavior you've observed - including the bite. I hope it didn't' draw blood . . . Try this ( assuming he's physically healthy):

* Don't reach into the kennel to remove him - just open the kennel and let him come out on his own. If it takes an hour - it takes an hour. Hunger/thirst and a need to relieve himself will help with this. 
* When you release him from the crate, do not even acknowledge his prescense until he comes up to you first. Just open the door and walk away into the kitchen. If he follows, then proceed with feeding and tell him how good he is. Or maybe he goes outside first? Totally ignore him and act if he is not even there until he comes to you. You control the food . . . . water should always be available. Again, ignore misbehavior - read a book, watch television - whatever. If he poops/pees in the house - completely ignore it - just clean it up and make no comment about it. Ensure that no one in your family interacts with him in any way except through your explicit permission - everyone is to ignore the dog until you say otherwise. Warn them of the consequences of not doing so. If you have to purchase welders gloves for protection , then do so.
* When you put him in the crate, make sure that he goes in on his own accord - don't place him in. Use treats ( hamburger meat, frozen liver cubes from petco/petsmart will do nicely). If you have to do it 'bread crumb trail' style - then do it. Never place him in the crate when something is wrong/bad - always with a cheerful voice does the dog go into the crate
* While up on the grooming table, talk nice to him and ensure that lots of good treats are constantly being shoved in his mouth! Don't give him time to complain! Cut up lots of hot dogs in thin slices. Maybe don't groom for a while . . . just get him up on the table and feed him treats and tell him how good and handsome he is! You might have to shave him to keep him from being matted, but far better that than to not have a dog that you can work with. 
* For now, your only 'negative' re-inforcement should be the sound 'aaahhh' or 'hey'! in a sharp tone. If he screams - too bad - he'll get over it. Don't use the word 'No' except in very dire situations (being bit is one!). That word should be reserved for situations that involve danger to yourself, others or the dog. 
* Let him cry, when he does - get up and ignore the dog. This is VERY tough to do Do not interact anymore with the dog until he comes up to you. Do not have any food out for him to eat. When comes to you, he eats. Always keep fresh water available. Remember, he is a canine and not human - he doesn't need food 3x a day. That's a human feeding pattern - not a canine one. I don't suggest that you starve your dog into submission, but he needs to know where the buck stops - you.
* Do not let your other dog interact with or play with him for now - your puppy must bond with you first!

Good Luck!
Mark, Jamie and Poodle Gangsters!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, this dog is my show prospect so constant grooming is a must. I don't have a choice he has to be crate trained and he has to be table trained and trained for grooming. Normally he comes jumping out of the crate in a wonderful mood ready to go to the door for potty time but for some reason today he's been weird. I almost feel like there is something physically wrong with him because he's acting so off. He's always been shy but never so fearful that he'd bite me as I picked him up. I think I'll call the vet tomorrow and see what they say. I always offer treats to go in the crate and usually he runs to it to get his special treat. When I open the door for him to come out like I said, he usually runs to get out. On the table he's hesitant usually but good for the most part as long as say "quit" he'll quit pulling a foot away or moving his face. Today though he wouldn't quit. He also wouldn't come in the house with me when I wanted him to. He normally follows me everywhere and he wouldn't at all. I don't know what's wrong with him but this has gone beyond his normal shy behavior and into something else.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Crates, tables and grooming . . .*

Great!
Here's an opportunity - when he is up on the table and acting good, treat him and tell how good he is and etc. Once he starts bucking, and acting anti-social, immediately either leave him alone by himself up on the table (properly and safely attached to the arm) or on the floor in an xpen behind closed doors with noone to interact with. Just scold and leave. Leave for a while . . .15 or 30 minutes . . . . come back - and repeat. If whines and cries - too bad - he'll get over it. Make the table the high point of his day! 

_'Gee, if I'm on the table getting groomed, good things happen! Hmm, I wonder where I want to be?'
_ 
Good Luck!

Mark


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

KPoos said:


> It means that out of the litter, I didn't go there looking for a specific temperament for our family as a family pet. I wanted the best structural dog that I could have for showing. I didn't think of temperament at all for some reason. I guess because the puppies were so young and because I just assumed that any dog could be shown, I didn't talk to the breeder about temperaments. I just assumed she'd know temperaments that were acceptable and ones that weren't since she knew my situation.


I think temperament plays a huge role in how the dog will show. If he remains shy and does not enjoy being shown and won't strut his stuff, no matter how gorgeous or structurally correct he is, he may not do well. 

Here is an excerpt from the poodle breed standard:

Temperament: 
Carrying himself proudly, very active, intelligent, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself. Major fault: shyness or sharpness.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes so if he's shy and I work with him on it, is that really correct temperament for showing? Showing is basically for breeding rights and why would I want to breed an extremely shy dog? It's not correct temperament. He'd make a great pet dog for someone that wants to work with his shyness and the issues that come with that but if I want to breed him some day, I don't feel right doing that knowing that his temperament is herditary.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Anything could have happened....It could be something that Jasper seen or heard. Although my poodle is not like this, Aoki is and just being honest here my BF and I had an arguement that she heard (a little yelling from one room to another) and everytime we carry on she will bark! 

She is starting to catch back on to things. Also a vet visit a while back turned her world upside down for all of us for weeks, still we are not sure why. She stopped listening, starting crying very loud if I tried to pick her up, and would back up as if I had done something to her. My vet tech told me that this happens in dogs and they usualy work through it in a matter of days or weeks. They told me not to "pamper" her, distance myself and my daughter as it was both of us - be firm and allow her to "come around" and she really did, kind of strange because I like you was worried. I'm just a person that loves dogs not a show person, learning and maybe someday but this is what I went through - not sure this fits. Good luck.


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## markfsanderson (Oct 25, 2009)

*Temperment, and other inconvenient truths . . .*



Poodle Lover said:


> I think temperament plays a huge role in how the dog will show. If he remains shy and does not enjoy being shown and won't strut his stuff, no matter how gorgeous or structurally correct he is, he may not do well.
> 
> Here is an excerpt from the poodle breed standard:
> 
> ...



I agree . . . i know of a number of judges that will immediately dump the dog, no matter how nice the conformation, if any temperament issues surface during the examination. I wonder about the sire and dams temperament? Grand dad and mum? There's no guarantees for sure, but you can try to minimize the chance of getting pup with a non-showy temperament. My hope is that she can intervene so that he can at least be a productive family member . . . and if we're lucky it was a learned and not a genetic disposition.:smow:

Mark


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Most puppies go through a develpmental period where everything scares them. New things scare them, old things scare them. Weeks 12 thru about 18 are THE most critical period for socialization. This is when they need exposure to new things, new people, new sounds etc. Puppies that do not receive adequate socialization during this period have a very hard time adapting to the unknown later in life. It is very normal for puppies to be fearful during this phase in their lives. Some puppies are more fearful than others, but most will go through this stage. New pet owners often hold breeders responsible for the behavior problems that surface later in their puppy. The reality is that you as the owner have much more influence on how your puppy develops than the breeder ever had (outside of the breeding genetics). Up until a puppy is 12 weeks, their needs are basic and if they are kept healthy and happy with their mother and siblings, outside socialization has little impact until they are older when the magic window opens. When the magic window opens, they are little sponges and like wet clay.

Puppies learnn through repeated exposure in pleasant situations. They are not to be expected to behave perfectly on the grooming table at this age. Each time they are put there it should be pleasant, and each time they grow more comfortable. Forcing a puppy to be perfectly still while you work on them is not natural. Your grooming does not have to be perfect at this tender age. If you get one foot shaved, you get one shaved. You quit before the dog becomes scared. Little bits of work every day are much more productive than an extended forced grooming session. Little by little the dog will learn and by the time they are old enough to be shown, they will be champs on the table. Forcing them to do these things will only cement fear in their memories and they will loathe the grooming process.

It seems like you are trying to dismiss this puppy way too early. There are so many temperaments in the show circuit. There are strong willed outgoing dogs, there are lazy dogs, there are shy dogs. As long as they are trained to do what is required there is no reason to dismiss a dog for not being "showy". Of course a dog that is fearful and cowers will not show well, that is why you train them. The "showy" personality is something that is more important in specials, but even here, you find dogs of all temperaments. This is why it is important to socialize the puppy now, during this stage. Whatever you do during this phase of the dogs life will make it or break it. Most judges go above and beyond in effort to properly evaluate a dog. 

Dogs pick up our stress levels and can heighten their anxiety. I hope you are not transferring your inner anxieties to your puppy and stressing it out more than it needs to be. You have received excellent advice from some of the previous posters. I notice that you tend to respond to the advice given in a consistent pattern of why you can't do what they are suggesting. It sounds like you have already dismissed this dog in your mind, and I would wonder why.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

KPoos, this is just my amatuer opinion, but I think you need to give him some time. Work on making everything fun. Maybe put him on the grooming table a few times during the day and give him some love and/or treats, then put him down. I think dogs need corrections (JMO from working w/ my two) but you have to make sure you're also rewarding the behavoir you want too. Work a little on obedience and reward him big time when he does what you want. He's still to young too go out and socialize, right? When he is old enough take him everywhere. I think genetics plays a role, but there's still a lot you can do to boost his confidence. Someone else mentioned that dog's can pick up on our emotions, so work on that too. I tend to be overprotective of my two guys and I have to work on it constantly b/c hovering over them makes them more anxious.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal welcome to the board. I haven't dismissed this puppy at all! I've been bitten today by a fearful puppy so naturally my first response is what did I do to deserve such behavior. My responses are those that come natural to me. If you don't like it, sorry that's me. I'm doing my best. I have another dog that I raised that didn't have these issues so naturally I'm concerned because this is my shot at showing a dog and I want to have a good temperament as well as looks. 

I reward good behavior and I certainly do not expect perfection on the grooming table at this age but I do expect not to be BITTEN because I reach into the crate to pull the dog out when it's refusing to come. 

I will take the positive advice from those that offer it on this board. I'm willing to try with this dog but if the temperament is wrong it's wrong and I'm not going to waste my money, time, and energy trying to show a dog with a faulty temperament. The dog with the wrong temperament is for a person that just wants a pet. I want a dog that I can show in the conformation ring.

As far as taking him out, he is only 14 weeks so naturally I've been wary about taking him places where he can get sick. I'm a little overprotective on that matter since I watched a puppy I owned die from parvo once.

And I want to say that I've spoken with two breeders that have advised me to give the dog back immediately so if I come across that way it's because that's the advice that I've been given on the side.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Kpoos,

I don't know much about breeding, but I do know that temperament in dogs is genetic and fearfulness/shyness is inherited from mom, dad or the grand parents. 

I have a friend who breeds and shows her Havanese in confirmation. The Havanese are suppose to be happy go lucky, unfazed by anything and she would never show or breed the dog with incorrect temperament. When her puppies are 7 weeks old, she performs temperament test on them and then at 8 weeks, confirmation test. I would think that Poodle breeders do something similar as well.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yeah my breeder friend asked if they performed a temperament test on this litter and I said no. They might have but I don't remember asking. I don't know why I didn't think to ask these things. I just assumed that because everyone involved in this breeding was showing dogs that things were just done because they knew they should be done.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Have you asked your breeder directly???


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> Have you asked your breeder directly???


Yes we are working this situation out. I'm going to have a couple of people look at him and take him into different situations and see how he reacts. I've developed a good relationship with his breeder so we are going to work together to figure out the best solutions.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

I know this doesn't explain everything you mentioned, but have you considered that his mouth may be extremely tender from teething? I've read previous posts by groomer's who had a very difficult time grooming during this period of development.

Just an idea I haven't seen come up yet.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

BFF said:


> I know this doesn't explain everything you mentioned, but have you considered that his mouth may be extremely tender from teething? I've read previous posts by groomer's who had a very difficult time grooming during this period of development.
> 
> Just an idea I haven't seen come up yet.


He's just 16 weeks old this week but it's possible. I haven't done anything to his mouth though to cause him to bite me.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

*How Old Is He?*

Is she 16 or 14 weeks old? Your story is getting inconsistent. Do you even know how old the puppy is? It sounds like your puppy is scared to death of you for some reason. How is she with other family members and strangers? Does she cower all the time or just with certain people? Are you pushing too much on this puppy for its age? Some dogs don't like to be roughly handled. All dogs need limits and boundaries and to know the rules. The standard poodle's temperament is a terrible thing to waste. How were the other puppies in the litter? Do you know of any problems with any of them? Usually a poor temperament is evident in the lines and would be evident in the other puppies. Or perhaps they were raised in a puppymill environment, although that can usually be corrected when taken at an early age. Do either parent have a history of fear biting or being excessively fearful? You say you want to show this puppy, does she come from show lines?


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> KPoos, this is just my amatuer opinion, but I think you need to give him some time. Work on making everything fun. Maybe put him on the grooming table a few times during the day and give him some love and/or treats, then put him down. I think dogs need corrections (JMO from working w/ my two) but you have to make sure you're also rewarding the behavoir you want too. Work a little on obedience and reward him big time when he does what you want.


Agreed! Jasper is still a young pup. I realize the importance of grooming and handling in your situation, but I think you need to develop a great relationship with him first. To be honest, he sounds terrified of you. If he can't trust you, he will not work for you. 
I think you should start fresh. Act as if he just came into your home. Forget that he's going to be your show dog. I could be reading too much into it, but I get the feeling you see Jasper as your one shot at showing. That's not the case. He's not the be all end all of your showing career. There is no need to rush into "show dog etiquette training". While it's never too early to start training, you can over do it. 

Showing is a VERY small part of a show dog's life. They are companions first and foremost.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Is she 16 or 14 weeks old? Your story is getting inconsistent. Do you even know how old the puppy is? It sounds like your puppy is scared to death of you for some reason. How is she with other family members and strangers? Does she cower all the time or just with certain people? Are you pushing too much on this puppy for its age? Some dogs don't like to be roughly handled. All dogs need limits and boundaries and to know the rules. The standard poodle's temperament is a terrible thing to waste. How were the other puppies in the litter? Do you know of any problems with any of them? Usually a poor temperament is evident in the lines and would be evident in the other puppies. Or perhaps they were raised in a puppymill environment, although that can usually be corrected when taken at an early age. Do either parent have a history of fear biting or being excessively fearful? You say you want to show this puppy, does she come from show lines?


Listen 16 or 14 weeks, what does that matter? I figured out last night that he's 16 weeks. I made an error so sorry that I made an error. I won't even bother with the rest of this post because it's not helpful and it's intended to piss me off. If you go back and read my responses instead of posting you will get the answers you are asking here.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

My take is different. I think this dog has a naturally shy temperament. He is not just going to be a show dog or a pet, he is slated to be a breeding dog. 

A pet owner can work with a shy, nervous puppy, but temperament breeds through and this is not the type of temperament I would personally want to breed in a poodle. I want my Poodles to be bomb proof from the get go and the ones I keep for breeding are.

I would return him to the breeder.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> My take is different. I think this dog has a naturally shy temperament. He is not just going to be a show dog or a pet, he is slated to be a breeding dog.
> 
> A pet owner can work with a shy, nervous puppy, but temperament breeds through and this is not the type of temperament I would personally want to breed in a poodle. I want my Poodles to be bomb proof from the get go and the ones I keep for breeding are.
> 
> I would return him to the breeder.


Thank you for offering an opinion. I still haven't decided yet but I want to go way out of my way before I make that choice.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Cbrand, I like your style. I was not aware that Kpoos was intending to BREED this dog? I do believe it is too early to evaluate if the dog is suitable for breeding, however, that opens up a whole other can of worms here. How can this dog be slated for breeding already? Wow, that scares me! Was this dog sold as breeding stock?

I have shown lots of dogs over my many lives. There is a wide variety of personalities in the spectrum. And I agree, if I were breeding my dog, I would look for the best temperament all the way around...but it would be one factor in many others regarding what I was looking for to carry forward in my breeding program. 

It is one thing to be an amateur show person having fun with their dog and maybe picking up a point or two and maybe finishing. But for breeding, wow. I have a whole set of opinions on breeding and I better stop now before I get really worked up.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

First of all I haven't said I had intended on BREEDING. It's an option or else why bother showing the dog at all? Isn't that the entire point of showing in conformation? It's to prove whether or not your dog is breeding material to further the breed standard is it not? From everything everyone has told me conformation showing isn't a bag of fun. It's tough and political and not for the light hearted. Definitely not just for a fun day out with your dog. We have a woman on this board that just started showing in conformation and she can attest to that.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Cbrand, I like your style. I was not aware that Kpoos was intending to BREED this dog? I do believe it is too early to evaluate if the dog is suitable for breeding, however, that opens up a whole other can of worms here. How can this dog be slated for breeding already? Wow, that scares me! Was this dog sold as breeding stock?
> 
> I have shown lots of dogs over my many lives. There is a wide variety of personalities in the spectrum. And I agree, if I were breeding my dog, I would look for the best temperament all the way around...but it would be one factor in many others regarding what I was looking for to carry forward in my breeding program.
> 
> It is one thing to be an amateur show person having fun with their dog and maybe picking up a point or two and maybe finishing. But for breeding, wow. I have a whole set of opinions on breeding and I better stop now before I get really worked up.


Poodlepal... do you own Alegria Max a Million? I think we have met.

Anywa, this puppy was purchased from a show litter as a show/breeding prospect. In my opinion, his temperament has already shown itself to be not what I would consider breeding quality. I think a naturally shy and nervous temperament is a bad thing in a Standard Poodle. They run the risk of becoming overly reactive and sharp shy.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Hello Cbrand. I think we have met! What a small world.

I agree with the breeding aspect, depending on how the dog turns out. My puppies personalities change and evolve over time and there is so much that influences how a dog turns out. I think in general, it is just way too early to be slating a dog for breeding PERIOD. You know what I mean? Sometimes the thrill of the challenge is in drawing a dog's personality out and seeing it blossom.

I have been lucky enough to mentor many owner handlers who just do it "for fun". I don't think a person has to have the "ideal specimen" to enjoy the circuit and have fun out there! With the drop in numbers at the shows, I like to encourage everyone possible to get out there and join in the fun.

I personally believe that breeding should be left in the hands of those who have the experience, background and resources to know what they are doing. Every dog that is shown and finished is NOT bred, nor SHOULD they be! Showing isn't only about evaluating the breeding stock, it is also a source of pride to display a well put together dog and showing off a good breeding program. I love to hear "WHO did THAT dog come out of!?"


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I am not sure what I say will help or not its just a story.

On sat I went to a AKC show to meet my friend Michael, He just got this 6 month old amstaff puppy 2 months ago. Michael is new to AKC showing so this was Mason's first show. Michael Let me hold Mason so he could put his other dog away. I was looking over Mason petting him he wags his tail and was VERY CALM and confidient in me and I never meet this dog. Mike came back and took mason into the ring he look great and won his class and winners 

Mike told me when he got mason he was SOOOO shy ! I was floored because I wouldn't have every guessed this dog to be shy at all. He was very confident in the ring and seemed fine. Mike only worked with him for 2 months ! 

I never had this problem with Enzo as a puppy he was very confident tail always up he was always trotting with happyiness. He does get nervous at certain things but once I let him know its ok he gets over it. He had an issue with cars and car rides now he can't wait to go to the car. He also gets nervous with loud sounds but I am starting to think only loud sounds we create ? I think he might think the objects are after him lol I dunno but when I walk him and a loud trash truck comes by it does not phase him one bit. Enzo is a goof ball 

Maybe you should try clipper training with Jasper as a method of training. I use a clicker with Enzo and he seems to respond to that more than anything else. I also praise him a lot like a game. 

did you take him to the vet to make sure nothing is wrong with him ? The main thing that concerns me is him bitting out of fear. I agree with others, talk to the breeder and see what she says let her view Jasper in your home and see what she says.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> I personally believe that breeding should be left in the hands of those who have the experience, background and resources to know what they are doing.


Yes, but then how is the torch ever passed down. Everyone has to start somewhere. And frankly.... there are Poodles breeders out there who have been doing this since dirt was young that I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them. I find that all too often I see "experienced" breeders making terrible excuses for poor health and temperament all in the name getting that one big flyer in the ring.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

LOL! You are SO right! You made me laugh! I just hope anyone who is going to breed a dog at LEAST know something about where the dog came from, how it was raised, testing, done, etc. I just didn't get that impression here!


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Roxy....your post was illuminating and touched my heart. THAT story is exactly the what I have been trying to say.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> Roxy....your post was illuminating and touched my heart. THAT story is exactly the what I have been trying to say.


Mike has been working with apbt for over 30 years , he is very good with dogs. This is his first pure amstaff ( he has a UKC apbt that is part amstaff and apbt he is a GRCH in ukc) So AKC is new to him I have been helping him out sat was a great day for him Mason looked great ( I will post his pictures in another thread )


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

No but I am leaning towards him being sick. He has an appointment tomorrow for shots and a look over.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> LOL! You are SO right! You made me laugh! I just hope anyone who is going to breed a dog at LEAST know something about where the dog came from, how it was raised, testing, done, etc. I just didn't get that impression here!


You.just.got.here.

You are new to this forum and have no background information on me or my dog and his lines. You are making snap judgments from nothing.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> No but I am leaning towards him being sick. He has an appointment tomorrow for shots and a look over.


Cool keep us updated ! It might be something wrong because I can't just see him bitting at you when all of the sudden. If Enzo did this to me I would think something medical could be the cause of his behavior


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Looking forward to pictures Roxy!


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Something as simple as ear or mouth tenderness can make them snappy.

Keep us posted on his vet visit, Kpoos! Good luck.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I personally dont feel that a dog that has a correct temperament should bite snap, even if it doesnt feel well. 

I know you probably wernt looking at him when you were pulling him out of the crate, but did he give ANY warning signs? Did he growl, snarl, anything before he resorted to biting? That sould be a Last resort for a dog, and if he is jumping right to it then that worries me.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

No absolutely NO warning signs at all. He didn't growl or anything. Let me explain what I had to do in that situation.

Typically he runs from his crate as soon as it's open. I've started a routine with him so that he's in his crate then out to go potty as soon as the door is open we head outside. Then he's out of the crate for an hour or so and then to potty and back in with a treat. That has been the same routine for weeks. He knows it so well he anticipates everything we do. So yesterday I groomed his face because I groom on Sundays. I put him back in the crate so I could have breakfast in between doing his face and feet. When I was ready to finish him I went to the crate and went to open it (this is a wire crate) but put my hand in front of the door to keep him from bounding out because I needed him on the table. When I put my hand up this was an unusual behavior from me to him so he stepped back and then wouldn't come out even when I moved it and stepped back. So to get him out I just reached into the crate with two hands and grabbed him by the upper part of his front legs. I was going to just get him out enough to pick him up. I've picked him up plenty of times so that wasn't something unusual to him at all. When I moved him forward he cried out and I immediately thought he had gotten a foot stuck (although I don't know how) so I let go with one hand and bent down to see where his feet were because he kept crying and I thought he was hurt. He tried to get away from me and bit me to get me to let him go. 

I have no idea what prompted this behavior. I was extremely distraught by it though so I thought I'd come here for advice. I've never been bitten like that on purpose. It was obviously out of fear but fear of what? I wasn't upset with him and I wasn't projecting any behavior or attitude that would have led him to believe that I was because I wasn't. I was just matter of fact about the approach and what I was going to do. I've groomed him plenty of times, his breeder has groomed him plenty of times so it's nothing new and he does get a lot of praise from me on the table. I don't draw it out, it's not a lengthy thing because it's just face, feet, tail and some brushing so I don't know what he was thinking. I'm not him, I'm not another dog, I can't read his mind. I just know I did nothing wrong and didn't hurt him in any way.

I hope the vet has some answers or that maybe it was a fluke thing. He's fine today, back to his normal behavior of bounding out and going potty and coming in to get his time in the kitchen out of the crate. He still runs to his crate to get his treat. Yesterday he wouldn't do these things. Again no idea what would have caused it.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

How much time is this dog spending inside the crate or locked in the kitchen (alone?) vs out and interacting with your family? How long have you had him? I could see this if you are just introducing him to your home but if you have had him for over a week, you should be well on your way to having him as an active family member. Poodles above everything, desire to be with their people. Don't put your puppy on a shelf. He needs to be integrated into the family unit to be happy and well rounded, regardless of your future intentions. Just trying to be helpful.....a lot of dog's suffer from too much confinement.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> How much time is this dog spending inside the crate or locked in the kitchen (alone?) vs out and interacting with your family? How long have you had him? I could see this if you are just introducing him to your home but if you have had him for over a week, you should be well on your way to having him as an active family member. Poodles above everything, desire to be with their people. Don't put your puppy on a shelf. He needs to be integrated into the family unit to be happy and well rounded, regardless of your future intentions. Just trying to be helpful.....a lot of dog's suffer from too much confinement.


He cannot be free to roam my house. He's not house broken yet and I'm not going to clean up his pee and poop and give him free roaming of the house until he is. I've had him for about 4 weeks. He spends up to two hours at a time in the crate and then he goes outside to potty then into the kitchen where he is played with by me, the kids, and our cat. He also spends time outside just playing with the kids and my other standard poodle.

If I was a large kennel that kept all of my dogs in a kennel instead of inside my home but I was a very popular name in poodles I doubt you'd take this same point of view with me. You've suddendly made it your mission to bring me some sort of grief for things I doubt you'd say to anyone else. If I worked full time out of the home and he had to be confined for his own safety and the safety of things inside my house, I doubt you'd say the same thing to me either. He spends time with us, plenty.

Don't tell me I'm putting my dog on a shelf. I'm repeating myself over and over but you don't know me. You don't know how I treat my animals. You just got to this forum so you can't sit in judgment (which is what you keep doing over and over) on someone you do not know. You keep making these snap judgments and you are wrong every single time.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

This is the last observation I am going to make, as it is clear you don't really want help or advice.

This dog should be housetrained already. Spend some time to get the job done. This is not his fault, it is yours.

Second, upon re reading the story. It seems clear to me that this was NOT a "fear bite". A fear bite would have been an immediate snap at you as you reached in and grabbed him. He yelped (was hurt or scared) and when you persisted to hang on to him, he was a naughty puppy and tried to remove your hand. Puppies generally tend to do such things. Many a young pup has tried to bite me as I clipped his nails, or held a foot for shaving. This is a teachable moment. Sounds like he was scared and/or hurt and used his basic instinct as a young pup. Once they learn that this is not an acceptable way out, they will behave. Your job is to teach him. But nothing in your post, to me, suggests that this was a "fear bite". However if it was....I could certainly understand why........


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Poodlepal said:


> LOL! You are SO right! You made me laugh! I just hope anyone who is going to breed a dog at LEAST know something about where the dog came from, how it was raised, testing, done, etc. I just didn't get that impression here!


That's b/c you jumped to conclusions! You need to go read some of KPoos other threads. IMO, she did her homework and found a small scale breeder that bred dogs out of nice lines. She waited for a pro handler to evaluate the litter before making her choice. Your posts are increasingly antagonistic and I don't see how that's helpful. You're assuming that she's given up on this puppy and that she bought him from a puppymill as breeding stock. I think she's been very clear in this thread and others, what type of breeder he came from and why she purchased him. I've said I think she can turn him around, but she does have children to consider.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Harley, your bunnies are absolutely fantastic! So cute!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> This is the last observation I am going to make, as it is clear you don't really want help or advice.
> 
> This dog should be housetrained already. Spend some time to get the job done. This is not his fault, it is yours.
> 
> Second, upon re reading the story. It seems clear to me that this was NOT a "fear bite". A fear bite would have been an immediate snap at you as you reached in and grabbed him. He yelped (was hurt or scared) and when you persisted to hang on to him, he was a naughty puppy and tried to remove your hand. Puppies generally tend to do such things. Many a young pup has tried to bite me as I clipped his nails, or held a foot for shaving. This is a teachable moment. Sounds like he was scared and/or hurt and used his basic instinct as a young pup. Once they learn that this is not an acceptable way out, they will behave. Your job is to teach him. But nothing in your post, to me, suggests that this was a "fear bite". However if it was....I could certainly understand why........


I guess I shouldn't come here to get advice from people that breed and show and own dogs then because if I was wrong and it wasn't a fear bite them I'm doing something wrong in assuming so and if it was then I was wrong in what I did to him so I can't do anything but be wrong in your eyes. Why do you even bother taking the time to respond to this thread? It's clear to me that you have some odd conclusion against me. I've PM'd you and tried to keep this between you and I but for some strange reason you seem to want to continue to make this about you and I. I don't even know you. You are a new person to this forum so I have no idea why you've decided to single me out and take this approach with me. Please, if you don't have anything constructive to offer me regarding this situation don't bother responding to me anymore. I've had a lot of helpful advice on this issue in this thread and I'm going to take this up with someone a lot more knowledgable and experienced. I've said that over and over again in the time that I've been replying in this thread. 

I hope that you never need advice on something you've done wrong with your dogs because the way you act you'd think you walk on water with your dogs. You must be the know all end all of standard poodles and I'm going to apologize to any of those people that are struggling with house training (we had a thread on this a while back and a lot were even when they had *gasp* one year olds) because this person obviously knows much more than any of us and we cannot hold a candle to the knowledge of this poodlepal.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Kpoos, I think you are right to be having this pup assessed by some knowledgeable poodle people. The reality is he sounds like he has a temperament that is much more on the shy side and with a young family, temperament is important (probably more important than conformation.) A fear bite at 16 weeks could mean problems down the road (could - things might work out fine, but it's worth further investigation).

While I know you have high hopes for showing in conformation with this boy, he is going to be a family pet for much more time than he is going to be a conformation dog. I hope it all works out for the best for you!


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

I still think this might be pain related...growth plates perhaps, sore elbows, etc.

Definitely have your vet take a close look at the front legs, spine, etc...see if you can even replicate how you took hold of Jasper.

My cavalier screams like a huge wimp when people pick him up by putting their hands under his front legs/shoulder area.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I will. I'm going to have a fecal done and everything to just rule things out. I'm going to tell him exactly what happened so he can look at the front area of his legs to be certain that there was nothing there to cause pain. He has a low pain tolerance. I know that's one thing that is done in temperament testing. 

At 16 weeks he should start teething. It's a possibility that teething pain can cause him to be insecure in other areas I guess.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

taxtell said:


> I still think this might be pain related...growth plates perhaps, sore elbows, etc.
> 
> Definitely have your vet take a close look at the front legs, spine, etc...see if you can even replicate how you took hold of Jasper.
> 
> My cavalier screams like a huge wimp when people pick him up by putting their hands under his front legs/shoulder area.


Off topic, but funny you mention that, as we are concerned about our 4 year old PWD at the moment. She whined in pain twice yesterday when I did actions on her that normally don't bother her at all. Once she was half up on the sofa and I pulled her front legs towards me and she cried. I thought I had just overextended her somehow and thought nothing of it. But then later on I was over her and kind of went to pick her up from under her legs (my hands under her "armpits" and her back legs on the ground) and she did it again, so we realized something was up. We thought it must be elbows, shoulders or neck/ spine. We're planning to rest her and take her to the vet if it doesn't improve, but what do you think?

Sorry to hijack the thread, just thought I'd ask! Back on topic!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

No this totally pertains to topic because maybe Jasper is having some issues with his legs being sensitive? Growth spurt, growing pains, some sort of bone issue, muscles sensitive?


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> Off topic, but funny you mention that, as we are concerned about our 4 year old PWD at the moment. She whined in pain twice yesterday when I did actions on her that normally don't bother her at all. Once she was half up on the sofa and I pulled her front legs towards me and she cried. I thought I had just overextended her somehow and thought nothing of it. But then later on I was over her and kind of went to pick her up from under her legs (my hands under her "armpits" and her back legs on the ground) and she did it again, so we realized something was up. We thought it must be elbows, shoulders or neck/ spine. We're planning to rest her and take her to the vet if it doesn't improve, but what do you think?
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread, just thought I'd ask! Back on topic!


I think resting her and then pulling again to see how she reacts is the right thing to do. She may have done something as simple as pulled a muscle. Is she eating normally, etc?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

taxtell said:


> I think resting her and then pulling again to see how she reacts is the right thing to do. She may have done something as simple as pulled a muscle. Is she eating normally, etc?


Yep, eating normally (ravenous as ever), but does seem a tiny bit quieter than usual - it's hard to tell if that's because she's also in season at the moment, which can alter her mood. 

My mom has some anti inflammatories in the fridge left over from our old guy who died last month. We will most likely give her some of the antis and rest her for a couple of days and see how she does. If my mom is still worried, she'll go right to the vet.

We hate seeing her off colour (my mom is the type who leaps to worst case scenarios)! She does however run around like a mad thing most of the time, so probably overdid it. Hopefully a bit of a rest will fix her right up. Thanks for the advice!


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Hopefully it's nothing.
My old greyhound girl pulled a muscle in her neck just from running, and she screamed like she was dying constantly. It was really horrible, and it really was just a pulled muscle. We had to sedate her! I tend to pick wimpy dogs, I think.


Sounds like this girl is pretty tough. 
Do you have previcox or rimadyl?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

taxtell said:


> Hopefully it's nothing.
> My old greyhound girl pulled a muscle in her neck just from running, and she screamed like she was dying constantly. It was really horrible, and it really was just a pulled muscle. We had to sedate her! I tend to pick wimpy dogs, I think.
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yep, she's tough.  She's a through and through working dog, which is great, but it can be tough to tell when she's in pain or hurt!

No idea what we have, I'll have to ask my mom tonight...


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

When Rileys back really flairs up he wont jump up on me or furniture. I routinely take him to a chiropractor now, and it has helped a Lot! He gets a rimadyl if he gets super sore, but rarely needs one.


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## BrandonRocks! (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi,

First time poster here, long time lurker. I just wanted to post because your story sounds alot like mine.

Bought my first male mini,Brandon, fell in love with the breed and decided I had to get one to show. Called up my breeder and told her I was hooked and wanted another male but specifically to show this time. She called about 6 months later and had a black male that was stunning. She was willing to co-own with me as I had never ventured down this path before and to mentor and help me along. She was also keeping a lively, strong willed black bitch as well.

I brought Dylan home and immediatly noticed how much quieter of a pup he was than my wild child Brandon. I found him to be more reserved, shy, and more of a scaredy cat when it came to new situations. Chalked it up to two pups out of two completely different lines and went about learning the ins and outs of handling and grooming the show poodle. I attended handling classes with Dylan weekly. He tolerated it but never really loved it. He wouldn't shy away from the "judge" or other dogs but he never "sparkled" either. On the other hand, if I brought out Brandon, who was just along for the ride, the difference was unbelievable. Brandon, strutted, preened, moved out, tail up, head up, nice step...you couldn't not notice him. Dylan, well he did ok and then you promptly forgot about him. His sister would also attend class occasionally and she had a lot of fire and personality too. 

Still we persevered and starting showing him about 9 months old or so. The breeder and I refused to give up hope that he would just blossom one day. It was not easy. He was gorgeous, but just couldn't outshine other dogs. We kept at it and even managed a point or two but it was hard and really, if the dog is not into it, no amount of baiting, coaxing, cajoling, socializing is going to turn a shy poodle into one who grabs the judge's attention. 

We quit shortly after he was 18 months old, Dylan never liked the hours on the grooming table, the chaos of a show, and god forbid, I tried a handler one time and you couldn't even see his tail, it was tucked up so far underneath him. Sometimes you have to cut your losses, he was still a nice dog and was rehomed with my nephew (of course with full permission of the breeder who was disappointed but who agreed that he was not going to overcome this issue) who adores him and vice versa. He's happiest hanging out at home on the couch. His sister finished in like 5 shows or something with 3 majors. :biggrin1:

So in a nutshell, sometimes the best laid plans just don't work out. I, like you, did not get Dylan for his personality, I took the most structurally sound, best moving, gorgeous male pup out of the litter. In hindsite, I shouldn't have been so focused on a male pup, his sister was almost as nice as him, and she had personality to die for. I always thought Dylan would open up if I just gave it more time, socialized some more, treated some more, etc. Really if the dog is soft, it will probably always be soft. Its not a bad thing, he was actually the best behaved dog, much better than crazy Brandon, but for showing, its really an uphill battle. I might have been able to finish him eventually, but really ??? Enjoy your puppy and I hope this helps a little. I wish I could type that he got better, I finished him and specialed him, and he went on to make beautiful babies but...he got neutured, found him a home with someone who would appreciate him for him, and see him all the time, happy as a clam, clipped down into something sensible and lounging on the couch.

Ronda


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Nice story, Ronda. I think it's a lesson that could be applied to more than just dogs!

Welcome to the forum :welcome:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Ronda, 
You have no idea how much I appreciate your story. It seriously makes me feel like it's not just me. I am one of those people that takes failure personally and very hard. I'm still working with this puppy and will take him to handling classes to see how he does in that setting. Until I see him walk the walk I can't know for sure what's going to happen. I know that I don't want to force things out of a dog when they aren't innate. I don't want to waste anyone's time and like his breeder said if it's not going to work out it's easier for him to adjust to a new home while he's still young.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Ehhh K-poo , I am so sorry to hear your troubles (juts went through this thread ). Temperament is extremely important for a show puppy - I have no idea how your breeder could proclaim " a shy" puppy "show" puppy ?! It can really mess up his carrier since he has to show confidence and perkiness in that ring !!!Temperament is very obvious at 8 weeks ! There are even standard temperament tests performed at that age to asses the final "potential" for any "role" - retrieving, obedience, therapy, agility, "Play-buddy"... you name it. 

I hope all will work out somehow for you at the end - I wish you the best of luck !


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Ehhh K-poo , I am so sorry to hear your troubles (juts went through this thread ). Temperament is extremely important for a show puppy - I have no idea how your breeder could proclaim " a shy" puppy "show" puppy ?! It can really mess up his carrier since he has to show confidence and perkiness in that ring !!!Temperament is very obvious at 8 weeks ! There are even standard temperament tests performed at that age to asses the final "potential" for any "role" - retrieving, obedience, therapy, agility, "Play-buddy"... you name it.
> 
> I hope all will work out somehow for you at the end - I wish you the best of luck !


You know we (I know it should be a stranger but I decided to let my husband do it since he doesn't play with him or interact with me in any way) did a temperament test with him last night and the only thing he really reacted to sensitively was the touch sensitivity. He's very sensitive to touch. The rest he scored 3s which is good. I'm going to have a friend of mine come over and administer the test again to see how he scores with a complete stranger.

Last night he was trotting around with me on his leash (something he refused a couple of days ago) and keeping his tail up even though he would be forced into rooms that he didn't want to go into. He'd recover and trot again with his tail up. I can't say what happened the other day. It's so weird that I cannot begin to understand the behavior.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, a complete stranger should do the test and you should not be present in the room (or any other people). It would be best if you can actually take him to her place. Also , make sure she knows how to perform the test - is she a trainer/handler or something like that ??? Otherwise test is not objective assessment. 

I hope you will not give him up , though : (((. He could be a great pet for your family, especially if he is doing well with your older boy. You saw what difficulty you had with that girl-poo that you had to rehome since she was so dominant !

I wish you all the best !


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Yes, a complete stranger should do the test and you should not be present in the room (or any other people). It would be best if you can actually take him to her place. Also , make sure she knows how to perform the test - is she a trainer/handler or something like that ??? Otherwise test is not objective assessment.
> 
> I hope you will not give him up , though : (((. He could be a great pet for your family, especially if he is doing well with your older boy. You saw what difficulty you had with that girl-poo that you had to rehome since she was so dominant !
> 
> I wish you all the best !


He wouldn't be if he's a fear biter though. I have young kids and fear biters are not good pets for people with young children. Children cannot be trained to look for certain cues that a dog will give you before it bites you but adults can. He is good with my Harry though. He's a good match for him but we've got him to be a good match for the entire family. 

She's trained a lot in dog behaviors and dog psychology. She's taken many classes in dog training and has had dogs all her life. She also has worked for a vet and is in veterinary school in college. She is a breeder and a good person so I trust her opinion.

I talked a lot to this lady today and she brought up a thought that I hadn't even considered. Because I reached into his crate (his safe place) and he gave me a cue that he didn't want to come out and backed up, by me persisting to try and get him I caused him fear. His response shouldn't have been to bite though. Just like mine shouldn't have been to persist but I didn't even know that until she told me. So what we are both contemplating is whether this dog will do well with children in the future or if he needs someone that will be more available to read his cues when he becomes afraid. I can do it through training with her but again the children have to be considered. I have a 2 year old that cannot be taught to look for a dog's cues. It's best to have a dog you feel safe with your kids but this could all be just a one time occurance too. If she evaluates him and feels comfortable with him, I'll completely trust her and work with her and him to figure out a good strategy to training.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh geeezzzzz - did not read about BITING !!!????:wacko: Oh boy - you definitely need to asses that puppy ASAP and THAT part could be REAL deal-buster !!!!!! That is why shy dogs are very complicated to deal with , they are very unpredictable and with such a small child - I hate to say this - but I would really have hard time deciding to keep him . 

I am really sorry to hear all of that : (


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

That is a really tough situation! I know Bailey would never have done well w/ kids. In fact I've half jokingly, said that I can't have kids until Bailey passes on. He would be terribly jealous and doesn't tolerate any abuse.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

We did his assessment tonight and he scored all 5s and 1 4. She felt that he was a very nervous dog in a new situation and with a new person. He pretty much froze up on almost everything. Now when he settled down he brought out his cute personality. Her judgment was that he is shy and nervous and might not be all that great for a new person showing him. He's going to take a lot of work in order to curb his tendency to shy away or be nervous. She's not sure if she thinks that he would bite again. That thing might have been just for me. She noticed that there isn't a bond there between the two of us that should be there by now. I've owned him for 4 weeks but with a submissive dog that scores 5s it's going to take a very long time to get him to adapt to a new home. So I made the decision tonight to give him back to the breeder but details are sketchy.


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## BrandonRocks! (Nov 3, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear its not going to work out for you kpoos. It hurts and its frustrating but better to find out now, not later, especially if you have a little one. Don't beat yourself up and try to look at this as a hard lesson learned, but at least you can take what you have learned about temperament and apply it to your next poodle puppy search when you are ready. :disapointed:


Sorry,
Ronda


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Kpoo- please take time and read a lot about everything concerning dog showing and breeding and puppy training and buying a puppy in general . Do not rush into anything. You actually should develop a relationship with a breeder before you even consider taking her puppy and expect her to mentor you and help you if you are to invest in taking her dog to Ch title. Many would be happy to do that - why put yourself in situation like this ? 

She shouldn't have sell you a puppy as a show prospect with temperament like that , but again, if you were more informed that would not have happened.Her bitch had hips "fair" also and even though it is a "passing" grade, why not look for an "excellent" bitch - there are PLENTY of them out there. 

You have to be more proactive, dear Kpoo, since if you do not do that even if you get your dog to a title - how will you screen breeders that would ask for a stud ??? You have to learn how to ask for testing done and proof of it and temp. assessment and all of that caboodle !!!! Please take your time - no need now to beat yourself over the head - just try to learn, learn,learn BEFORE you make mistake.

I wish you the best of luck with everything.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Kpoo- please take time and read a lot about everything concerning dog showing and breeding and puppy training and buying a puppy in general . Do not rush into anything. You actually should develop a relationship with a breeder before you even consider taking her puppy and expect her to mentor you and help you if you are to invest in taking her dog to Ch title. Many would be happy to do that - why put yourself in situation like this ?
> 
> She shouldn't have sell you a puppy as a show prospect with temperament like that , but again, if you were more informed that would not have happened.Her bitch had hips "fair" also and even though it is a "passing" grade, why not look for an "excellent" bitch - there are PLENTY of them out there.
> 
> ...


Thanks you have been a good voice of wisdom. I think I might just keep Jasper and work on his temperament issues and see where we go. Can't work out anything with this breeder unfortunately. I am shocked beyond belief at what she's done behind my back but if anyone wants to know I must take it to private before I'm threatened to be sued.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I KNEW IT :excruciating:!!! I just told my husband during the dinner about your situation and that I would not be surprised if she tries to "turn the table" and threaten to sue you :doh:

I am so sorry Kpoo , just for you to know - MANY find themselves in situation like that : ((( when dealing with unscrupulous breeders. If you plan to go in show-world - you will encounter great deal of that mentality , unfortunately. You just need to grow a "thick" skin and find honest co-owners and co-breeders to whom you can fully trust.

Good luck with everything !


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Wow, it's hard to know how to react without knowing the whole story, but it's very disappointing that seemingly your breeder will not help you out with this pup who does not appear to be a perfect fit for you/ your family. Yet another example of why it's so important to find the right breeder. If she really had her pup's interests at heart, she would do everything in her power to find him the RIGHT home rather than keeping him in a less than optimal situation.

I hope everything works out for you. I know how much time and effort you put into finding this pup, and it's a real shame it's turning into a bit of a sour experience.  Hopefully things will turn around with some time and effort on your part, and he will turn into a great family member.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Oh yeah she'll help me out on her terms. There's no negotiation, nothing, her terms or nothing. I don't feel like that's fair so I've decided to figure things out on my own I guess, for now anyway.

Maybe without the shadow of her behind me I'll just go on treating him like a dog and not a show puppy and things will balance out better?


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## Fur Elite (Nov 4, 2009)

*Breeder Response*

I wanted you all to understand that there are two sides to every story, especially this one. Things are not as they have been represented. I am not an “unscrupulous” breeder. I am someone with a finished bitch from top lines who bred a litter of puppies under guidance from a top kennel in the State. All health testing was performed on the parents. The pedigree of each parent is wonderful. 
I was contacted by Kpoos about a puppy. She represented herself as a mother of several children who had a lot of time on her hands but was tied to the home. She knew she could not be a serious show person as she could not travel out of town for shows and was limited to the few shows that came to her area every year, but she wanted to get a dog to learn the ropes with and go to a few shows. If it dog finished, great! If not, oh well. She just wanted to experience what she had been reading about for so long. But none of the big kennels would sell her a show prospect since she had never even maintained a poodle’s coat. I was excited to work with her, because I was blessed with someone who took me under their wing and found me a great poodle to show. I ended up having a professional finish her, but I was able to show her and learn how it is done. I wanted to help someone like I had been helped. So I was willing to part with one of my very best puppies. I even worked out a financing arrangement for the puppy, since she couldn’t afford to pay for one all at once. I was a little concerned because she did tell me a friend of hers, who does not breed for conformation, was perhaps a little too interested in whatever puppy she obtained. We made an agreement that the dog would not be bred to any situation like this, and most likely not bred at all. After all, we didn’t even know if the dog would be shown enough to earn points, much less finish.
The puppies were raised in my home, with my other dogs and my children. We constantly socialized them. Had all the kids in the neighborhood over playing with puppies. Every day I spent hours with them in the backyard. Watching them, playing with them. Loving them. Jasper was one of my favorites from day one. I was very thrilled when I took the litter to be evaluated by my mentors and they ranked Jasper as #2 puppy. Kpoos had initially chosen a different puppy. However, she was evaluated to be not show material, so I closely kept in contact with her about the puppies during the evaluation. She agreed Jasper was the one for her. He passed with flying colors all temperament and conformation evaluation. He was a bright, engaging puppy. 
Jasper remained at my home with the puppy I kept for an extra week after all the others were gone. I especially got to spend one on one time with him then. The only thing he was afraid of was the lawn mower.
I gave Kpoos a wire kennel to keep him in. I gave her a tack box with some old clippers and other grooming equipment. I wanted to help her succeed. I told her to contact me any time, and she did. Every day almost with questions. I answered them all, giving advice when she asked for it regarding feeding, housetraining, table training….anything. She was so happy. Everything was great.
Imagine my surprise when I receive a text to me out of the blue saying the puppy is “shy and fearful. He is not showable at this point”. And then that he bit her. After trying to grasp how this puppy who I knew to be so bright and happy could turn into something she deemed unshowable and of poor temperament confused me. She told me they weren’t bonding. The puppy had been with her for a month at this point. Something is very wrong here. I did what any breeder would do, I asked for the puppy back. I did not make accusations, I simply said the puppy is not working out for you, let’s return it so you can find one that better meets your needs. Then the back peddling began. Maybe this, maybe that…but it was always followed by “he is shy, he is fearful”. It was clear to me from her messages that she had already broken the psychological tie with him. At best, she was on the fence. A puppy deserves more than this. It was time to cut bait. However, she became insulted that I asked for him back and that is where all the drama began. I made no accusations, the puppy wasn’t working out. It was very concerning as I knew him to be a different puppy.
During all of this, I am led to this forum where I find that she has been posting disparaging things about the temperaments of my puppies and my breeding. I am sure you can understand how this unsettles me. I found it especially unsettling that the puppy was now being declared a breeding prospect. This was not the plan. This was a starter show dog. I felt duped. I also felt that she had disparaged the kennels that my bitch and the stud came from, implying that this puppy had poor temperament and that it was passed on genetically. The kennels are named in her various posts.
I have asked for the puppy back. One minute she tells me he needs to come back, the next she tells me she wants to work it out, yet a post says she has decided to return it. Just tonight she has decided to give him back and then declared she refused to give him back about 3 times in two hours. This puppy has not been paid for in full. When she declared she would not give the puppy back to me, I immediately registered the puppy online on a limited registration to myself so that he could not be sold nor bred. I will release papers on the dog when he has been paid for in full. I will return money toward the deposit once the puppy has been placed in a permanent home. Standard operating procedure.
I just wanted you all to hear my story. I am sure many of you must have realized there was more going on, but it is very easy for people to point their fingers at the big bad unscrupulous breeders. My main concern is for that puppy and putting him in a home with an owner he can develop a proper loving bond.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I've posted my thoughts in the blue. I don't know what else to say but I'm sorry this board is dragged into this.

I wanted you all to understand that there are two sides to every story, especially this one. Things are not as they have been represented. I am not an “unscrupulous” breeder. Never once said that. I am someone with a finished bitch from top lines who bred a litter of puppies under guidance from a top kennel in the State. All health testing was performed on the parents. The pedigree of each parent is wonderful. 
I was contacted by Kpoos about a puppy. She represented herself as a mother of several children who had a lot of time on her hands but was tied to the home. She knew she could not be a serious show person as she could not travel out of town for shows and was limited to the few shows that came to her area every year, but she wanted to get a dog to learn the ropes with and go to a few shows. If it dog finished, great! If not, oh well. She just wanted to experience what she had been reading about for so long. But none of the big kennels would sell her a show prospect since she had never even maintained a poodle’s coat. This isn't true I never contacted big kennels. I was excited to work with her, because I was blessed with someone who took me under their wing and found me a great poodle to show. I ended up having a professional finish her, but I was able to show her and learn how it is done. I wanted to help someone like I had been helped. So I was willing to part with one of my very best puppies. I even worked out a financing arrangement for the puppy, since she couldn’t afford to pay for one all at once. I was a little concerned because she did tell me a friend of hers, who does not breed for conformation, was perhaps a little too interested in whatever puppy she obtained. This friend was interested because she wanted to make sure I didn't get taken advantage of since the puppy I was getting kept being changed. We made an agreement that the dog would not be bred to any situation like this, and most likely not bred at all. After all, we didn’t even know if the dog would be shown enough to earn points, much less finish.
The puppies were raised in my home, with my other dogs and my children. We constantly socialized them. Had all the kids in the neighborhood over playing with puppies. Every day I spent hours with them in the backyard. Watching them, playing with them. Loving them. Jasper was one of my favorites from day one. I was very thrilled when I took the litter to be evaluated by my mentors and they ranked Jasper as #2 puppy. Kpoos had initially chosen a different puppy. That was at the suggestion of this breeder not me. However, she was evaluated to be not show material, so I closely kept in contact with her about the puppies during the evaluation. She agreed Jasper was the one for her. He passed with flying colors all temperament and conformation evaluation. He was a bright, engaging puppy. 
Jasper remained at my home with the puppy I kept for an extra week after all the others were gone. I especially got to spend one on one time with him then. The only thing he was afraid of was the lawn mower.
I gave Kpoos a wire kennel to keep him in. I gave her a tack box with some old clippers and other grooming equipment. I wanted to help her succeed. I told her to contact me any time, and she did. Every day almost with questions. I answered them all, giving advice when she asked for it regarding feeding, housetraining, table training….anything. She was so happy. Everything was great.
Imagine my surprise when I receive a text to me out of the blue saying the puppy is “shy and fearful. He is not showable at this point”. And then that he bit her. Okay this is not true, it did not happen that way. He bit me, I contacted her right away, first person looking for help. I didn't say the rest until after because I was so shaken about the bite. After trying to grasp how this puppy who I knew to be so bright and happy could turn into something she deemed unshowable and of poor temperament confused me. NEVER said poor temperament EVER! She told me they weren’t bonding. The puppy had been with her for a month at this point. Something is very wrong here. I did what any breeder would do, I asked for the puppy back. Again not true you kept telling me that I didn't want him and you could tell I didn't and I should just bring him back to you. I was told by my friend that knows a heck of a lot about puppy evaluation that it didn't seem like we had bonded yet. A lot of that had to do with you and your interference in my raising of him but whatever. I did not make accusations, I simply said the puppy is not working out for you, let’s return it so you can find one that better meets your needs. Then the back peddling began. Maybe this, maybe that…but it was always followed by “he is shy, he is fearful”. It was clear to me from her messages that she had already broken the psychological tie with him. At best, she was on the fence. A puppy deserves more than this. It was time to cut bait. However, she became insulted that I asked for him back and that is where all the drama began. I made no accusations, the puppy wasn’t working out. It was very concerning as I knew him to be a different puppy. You kept insinuating that I had done something to cause him to be that way so yes I was insulted since I've cared for him and done everything I know how to do for him from day one and I've come to you over and over for advice like a good owner would do.During all of this, I am led to this forum where I find that she has been posting disparaging things about the temperaments of my puppies and my breeding. Again anyone with eyes can read and see that I did NOT do that. I am sure you can understand how this unsettles me. I found it especially unsettling that the puppy was now being declared a breeding prospect. Again I did NOT do that! This was not the plan. This was a starter show dog. I felt duped. I also felt that she had disparaged the kennels that my bitch and the stud came from, implying that this puppy had poor temperament and that it was passed on genetically. I never said POOR TEMPERAMENTS good grief! The kennels are named in her various posts.
I have asked for the puppy back. One minute she tells me he needs to come back, the next she tells me she wants to work it out, yet a post says she has decided to return it. Just tonight she has decided to give him back and then declared she refused to give him back about 3 times in two hours. This puppy has not been paid for in full. When she declared she would not give the puppy back to me, I immediately registered the puppy online on a limited registration to myself so that he could not be sold nor bred. I will release papers on the dog when he has been paid for in full. I will return money toward the deposit once the puppy has been placed in a permanent home. Standard operating procedure. She's refused to give any money back and insinuated after she registered Jasper in her name behind my back, that she will only refund the nondeposit money of $100 after I paid half of what she was asking for him. I thought that she was doing a nice thing by taking half at a time but it seems like she's had an issue with that all along by her comments here. Good to know for the future. I just want to be done. I've changed my mind and gone back and forth because I've never been treated like this and I have no idea what to do. This is a very emotional thing and when I'm faced with an emotional decision I go back and forth because I'm unsure. I also don't feel like I trust her anymore. Who would after registering the dog behind your back? I don't even know Jasper's registered name.I just wanted you all to hear my story. I am sure many of you must have realized there was more going on, but it is very easy for people to point their fingers at the big bad unscrupulous breeders. I never said that. My main concern is for that puppy and putting him in a home with an owner he can develop a proper loving bond.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

It is great to hear both sides !!!! Of course that stories can be subjectively "painted" !!!!! 

I am so sorry that both of you ended obviously very hurt : (, and I hope that although the beginning was bad that ending can be somehow worked-out for the benefit of all involved :dog:

I think that all that transpired came from mis communication, misunderstanding and inexperience  and too much hurt is now involved and trust is lost forever on both sides . 

Maybe a new re-homing contract can be put together so nobody assumes anything and works "on good faith" - sometimes written contract can save both sides from situations like this. Than there is no "she told/he told" issues  and all is "spelled out" on the paper and clear *sigh...

I hope you both will find a way out of this situation soon since it will be just a heart-brake after heart-brake on both sides : (((. Puppy is still young and can easily find a new home and whole amount can be refunded.

Best of luck to all involved eace:


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## raispoodles (Nov 4, 2009)

I just hope the breeder made up a contract with exact terms expressed of what was expected and what should happen if the puppy no longer works out. Any responsible breeder would do this so I'm sure he/she did. 

It's never good to use names either FYI. Hopefully it works out on amicable terms and no names get slandered. 

Showing dogs is hard work but it is susposed to be fun! Doesn't seem like the buyer will ever see it in that light:as fun! That's extremely unfortunate because more and more people are discouraged from showing and few newcomers ever make it. Shouldn't the current exhibitors and handlers reach out to those who want to start? Thanks for trying to do this "breeder". All I can say is hopefully everyone can make apologies and pray that it all gets solved so that the desire of the buyer to show is not lost and she canstill maintain that desire and passion to learn.


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## raispoodles (Nov 4, 2009)

It cut me off...

As for registering the dog: I could never imbibe why that was done behind the buyers back. Hopefully the contract states something about registration and breeders rights. 
I feel that as the buyer she/he shouldve had the right to reg the dog and akc has probably had this done before so it would be interesting to see what they do. Especially if the buyer still physically has the dog. 

Good Luck and prayers are with you both and whoever is involved


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

There definately should have been a contract. So much can go wrong in what seem to be amicable relationships. When I read that the puppy had not been paid for in full, I couldn't believe the breeder had already released the papers. No breeder should ever release papers on any puppy until it has been paid for in full. It just isn't done and it is exactly because of these situations that it isn't done. Lesson well learned to all involved. My only assumption is that "breeder" realized the mistake when things turned sour, reclaimed the resistration and intended to reissue papers once and if the financial obligation had been made. Since this obviously degraded into such a dismal situation, it was probably the only route the breeder saw to protect themself from the buyer essentially never returning the puppy, selling it, or breeding it. Did the breeder offer to sign over papers if the puppy was paid for in full, or was this even an option at this stage? I guess it doesn't matter.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> I am not sure what I say will help or not its just a story.
> 
> On sat I went to a AKC show to meet my friend Michael, He just got this 6 month old amstaff puppy 2 months ago. Michael is new to AKC showing so this was Mason's first show. Michael Let me hold Mason so he could put his other dog away. I was looking over Mason petting him he wags his tail and was VERY CALM and confidient in me and I never meet this dog. Mike came back and took mason into the ring he look great and won his class and winners
> 
> ...





Glad to hear your friend worked out the shyness and moved in to the ring with a happy puppy. Amstaff's are sweet dogs. 

We had a Amstaff named Cherry that we got at 6 months old. She was the pretty red and white bitch Ive posted a few pics of from time to time (for those who have known me for a while) Anyhow, she was a very shy puppy and the moment you touched her to stack her up she would drop to the ground. Never a fear biter or even should a sign of that however. It took lots of time and training from my husband (me on occassions) to get her comfortable and feeling confident about being stacked. She ended up being a beautiful Amstaff and finished pretty easily AKC. She was a flashy girl and for the most part enjoyed showing. We also were told she was shy before we got her and elected to add her to our family anyhow....on a co-ownership as well. Pups can act different during development and go through some shyness/fearful stages as they grow into themselves and learn. 

Id say if this is the first time Jasper has bit you, and over all things have been pretty good, then keep on training him and work through what happened. I think you said the next day he was back to his bouncy self. 

However, now the relationship between the breeder and yourself is in question. I hope you can both come to an agreement and do whats best for the pup. I do think if you return the pup, you should be refunded the amount you paid for this pup considering the situation. You have taken him to the vet for care and kept in touch very well with this breeder. Its not like you just changed your mind about owning a puppy. 

Its too bad it came to this. Jasper is a pretty boy and I know how excited you were about having this boy.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Things are working out okay. Still a very emotional thing for me that it came to this but you can't predict these things ahead of time.


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

MY family's first greyhound was INCREDIBLY shy and afraid. Now, we never showed her... but in a family with two teenage kids, the shyness wasn't going to work. It was bad enough that if on a walk and she saw someone or something she was afraid... she would stop dead in her tracks and scream like you were hurting her if you tried to pull her along. MANY times, I had to carry her all the way back home. (Which was fine when she was a 30 pound puppy...)

We moved states mid-way through her puppyhood, and started being very active with her. Taking her to meet n' greets, taking her to the pet store for no reason and letting people gently pet her, and my mom also enrolled her in doggy daycare 2-3 days a week so she could be around new dogs and new people. Very slowly, she made her way out of her shell and became the dog many people got to know and love. People never believed us when we told them what a chicken she was when she first came in to our family, as she was an incredibly outgoing dog that loved everyone. Her confidence was amazing, and people would come straight to her, rather than the other way around.

She has since passed, but was a wonderful dog that touched a lot of people's lives, and you would have never guessed that she would be... well, her... when we first brought that shy little puppy home.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes, the Sale Contract is extremely important document !!! It should be lengthy
and trying to cover all possible scenarios so everything is clear before puppy is taken from the breeder. Contracts protect both sides involved ! If some new agreements are made - new addendum should be attached on the contract and signed by both the breeder and the buyer. The Sale Contract is always on the top of my list when looking into potential breeder as a source for my future puppy. 

Since I suppose no contract was involved here, I suggested making one now for this particular scenario happening so nobody involved would stand and wait in fear any more of what would or could happen next . 

Yes, shy dogs can "turn around" with great deal of work , some can not and in either case, I do not think that dog that is not "cut of that fabric" and does not enjoy showing should be trained to do so. He might have been able to "come out" but the puppies he produces might not . 

Also, on the last show I attended there was a gorgeous bitch that was taken out of showing since she could not "perform". She was placed in the pet -home for a time being. Her new owner adored her and she "came out" and was actually the friendliest dog out of the ring . She decided to try "owner-handler" class and first day went fantastic. Spoo got many points and all was great. Second day in a ring girl-poo started strutting nicely and than looked at her owner with sad eyes and started rubbing her gorgeous head off owner's knees and looking her up in the eyes - it was the moment I wish could have been captured on camera. The owner just turned around and took her out of the ring - bless her heart - she knew what spoo was telling her : " Mom, please don't make me do this - I do not like this at all...please!" 

Some dogs just are not happy in the ring and making them do it is just not right , in my opinion.


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## BrandonRocks! (Nov 3, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Yes, shy dogs can "turn around" with great deal of work , some can not and in either case, I do not think that dog that is not "cut of that fabric" and does not enjoy showing should be trained to do so. He might have been able to "come out" but the puppies he produces might not.
> 
> Some dogs just are not happy in the ring and making them do it is just not right , in my opinion.


Yup. This sums it up pretty nicely. Dylan in a nutshell. We could have tried training him to look more animated and excited, but it wouldn't have been an accurate portrayl of his temperament. If they don't like being in the ring, they don't like it and really, is it worth it to force them? There are so many other dogs out there that eat up that type of enviroment, show them, its easier and way more fun.

Just remember tho, even if they're not cut out to be a show dog, they can still make a fantastic pet. Dylan is in a low key home who appreciates a quiet, well behaved dog who doesn't challege them and doesn't beg to go anywhere. (poor Dylan really didn't appreciate the sea-doo trip at all, he was not thrilled about riding one of those. :wacko

Ronda


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