# Poppy still unwell



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy was recovering well from her bout of bloody diarrhoea and vomiting 10 days ago, but since finishing the metrodinazole at the weekend she has started vomiting a few hours after meals, and is obviously uncomfortable and not herself. I have been feeding her Royal Canin gastro sensitivity, which she loved and which rapidly stopped the diarrhoea and got her back to Perfect Poos (including one yesterday morning), but after 48 hours of throwing up most meals she decided she didn't want to eat it, although she was very keen to have something else. I added a tiny bit of cooked chicken to a small spoonful of RC, and she ate it all. Part of me thinks it might be better to starve her, but current advice is that the digestive system recovers more quickly if it is kept gently working with frequent small, bland meals. She is getting a Zitac dose every day to reduce acid, is drinking well, and has not lost any weight. It does not hurt her to rub her tummy, but she is showing signs of nausea and discomfort.

My vet thinks it will settle down as her digestive system recovers - the metrodinazole has a calming effect as well as being an AB, which may explain why she was so much more comfortable while taking it. If she doesn't pick up be tomorrow I will make a vet appointment. My anxieties immediately jump to worst case scenarios - cancer? Addisons? Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? She has had minor gastric upsets before, and is prone to acid tummy, but never anything like this.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so sorry 

As I've mentioned, my only experience with this sort of gastro distress was when Gracie couldn't tolerate liver (culminated in bloody diarrhea) and when Peggy couldn't tolerate the food sent home by her breeder (vomited it up every single time within a few hours).

I wish I had more to offer, as I imagine you've explored all dietary options at this point. I'm so sorry if I'm forgetting, but have you tried giving her just plain boiled white chicken for a few days and then following up with a formal elimination diet?

Amazing really that she's not lost weight. Good girl, Poppy. Sending my best.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks PtP - The gastro sensitivity diet has always been even more effective than chicken and rice, and settled her tummy so thoroughly last week that my vet recommended putting her on to it permanently, so I don't think this is an intolerance. I think there is something else going on - vet suspects she has had an ulcer, which would explain the symptoms. She was so much better last week that I hoped we were past the worst, but this queasiness has me worried it may be the start of something instead!

PS Sophy had exactly the same reaction to dried liver treats as Peggy, even in tiny quantities. She is fine with small amounts fresh or cooked, but dried - NOT!


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

So sorry to hear Poppy's tummy troubles are continuing. I know you are working closely with your vet, which is for the best. Did you mean to say that she currently has an ulcer or maybe had one in the past?

Of course I do not know what is going on with Poppy, but these are some thoughts. Can the cycle be stopped with anti nausea medication? Is it possible she is experiencing gastroparesis (a slowing down of the GI tract that can be mild/mod/severe, leading the stomach to empty slowly/not at all, often with nausea/vomiting)? In which case, can peristalsis be speeded up with meds? Sometimes humans experience gastroparesis because of neuropathy or ulcerative colitis. There are many areas of the brain that can trigger nausea, so sometimes persistent nausea has a central nervous system cause instead of gastrointestinal. Another possibility is a stricture in her GI tract (in humans these can resolve with time if caused by a viral infection, be resolved with surgery, sometimes/rarely they can be lived with). Do you have the option of seeing a veterinary GI specialist? It might be time to ask your vet for a referral. At the point that you feel everything has been tried, consider prednisone or anti anxiety medications. These thoughts are shared in the spirit of brainstorming to perhaps spark an idea that may lead to solutions.

Poppy is a lovely girl, and I hope she is feeling better very soon. Warm thoughts for you both!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Sorry Poppy isn't quite herself yet The only thing I can share is what went with my cairn terrier and I think I have already. We have determined she has IBS and part of her intestine wall has thickened. She cannot tolerate anything other than soft food which includes softening her kibble. The only treat she can tolerate is instincts toppers, she only gets about 2-3 a day. I hope you find what works for Poppy. I'd probably do as your doing and just keep her on a bland diet for another 5-7 days while her digestive tract continues to heal. Maybe just boiled chicken & rice?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Newport - the vet thinks her bleeding at the beginning of this episode was probably caused by an ulcer. I think the latest vomiting may have been as simple as increasing the amount I was feeding her at each meal too fast. She did another Perfect Poo this morning, so food is getting through OK, and she has if anything gained weight, so nothing to worry about there. I gave her a very tiny breakfast at 7am, and another tiny meal at 12 noon - we will see if that one also stays down. She has definitely decided it is the special food that is the culprit, but I am reluctant to change from that as it has been so effective sorting out the earlier vomiting and diarrhoea - fortunately adding a little bit of something else makes it palatable again. I do sympathise with her - there are things I cannot eat or drink after they became associated with unpleasant results - I used to love a dry martini until some idiot spiked the vermouth with medical alcohol... I have bought in a huge stock of cans of gastro sensitive diet, but if she goes off it completely the local dog rescue will no doubt be able to use it!

I suppose I just expect things to get better very quickly - an ulcer takes weeks to heal completely, but she was so much better in a few days I was hoping that speed of recovery would continue, and I should have anticipated set backs. I am sure if the problem continues my vet will be more than happy to refer me to a specialist, but it is still early days for that. It is only 10 days since she had a bout of severe bleeding, etc, and everything was going exactly as it should until this latest bout started 48 hours ago. She is rather better this morning - not bouncy, but not as queasy - so we may be back on track, and the weather is foul so a lazy day at home suits all of us. But do keep passing on your experiences and brain storming - the more information the better if the vomiting does continue, or the gastritis looks like becoming a chronic condition.

I have asked my vet about drugs for anxiety, but he would prefer to wait a few weeks and see if she improves when the shooting season ends. I have bought an Adaptil collar, on the May-help-won't-harm principle, but I think at the moment the anxiety, discomfort and nausea are creating a vicious circle, and the vet is right that we need to concentrate on getting her tummy comfortable, and then see how she is.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Sorry Poppy isn't quite herself yet The only thing I can share is what went with my cairn terrier and I think I have already. We have determined she has IBS and part of her intestine wall has thickened. She cannot tolerate anything other than soft food which includes softening her kibble. The only treat she can tolerate is instincts toppers, she only gets about 2-3 a day. I hope you find what works for Poppy. I'd probably do as your doing and just keep her on a bland diet for another 5-7 days while her digestive tract continues to heal. Maybe just boiled chicken & rice?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Years ago I had a dog that kept having hours of bloody, mucousy stool. After lots of testing that came back negative, he just stayed on the veterinary GI food for several years. Eventually I slowly, tentatively switched him to a regular food and he did fine after that. So maybe keeping her on the food (if you can convince her it's ok again!) is an option.
I'm assuming the vet has checked for pancreatitis (increased Lipase and abnormal cPli on blood work).
Have you tried sucralfate for Poppy? It's a gastroprotectant that is often used for cases of potential ulcers, and could be given longer term while her gut heals.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Oh, and like Newport said, an anti-nausea like cerenia (can be given daily as needed) so that she doesn't develop food aversions while she is healing.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m sorry Poppy isn’t well. I have no advice but wish her a quick recovery. I will be thinking about her.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Gosh. I can't imagine what would cause an otherwise healthy dog to get an ulcer. Poor poor Poppy. 

Hoping you continue seeing improvements. I like that your vet is treating this conservatively, but if it will take a while to get in with a specialist, might be worth setting up an appointment. Can always cancel.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

We are now trying a variant on chicken and rice - ground rice with a splash of chicken stock (I carefully skimmed the fat off), and just a little bit of chicken. Poppy has been hopefully gazing at the cat's food, and sniffing around outside to see if they have dropped anything, so she is hungry - just not for the food that will do her most good!

She has always been rather nervous, PP, and since she was spayed about 18 months ago it seems to have got worse. She has shown signs of stress colitis and acid reflux, but never very serious or long lasting. But nor is she showing any symptoms of the nasty diseases that can trigger ulcers. Last week she was boinging around like a two-year old, she only really started feeling rough after a rather large meal on Sunday morning. She is now mostly keeping food down if it is very small bland meals, so I am hoping she is on the mend - I need to be careful and not try to rush things.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry to hear Poppy is still having a stressed up belly. I hope that your current routine helps. We are all looking forward to good news ASAP.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm so sorry for Poppy and you. I hope the ulcer is the only culprit and not some other thing like Addison's or pancreatitis. I won't attempt to give medical advice, as you seem to have a good relationship with your vet. I sure hope she'll get over this soon and be okay. Lots of good health vibes coming your way.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I’m sorry to hear about Poppy’s distress. I have a beagle-mix who is noise sensitive. After many years I investigated anti-anxiety meds and she’s now taking alprazolam (xanax). Admittedly, it’s not fool-proof. We encountered gunfire on a Christmas Day walk about and she started trembling. She bounced right back when I packed the dogs in the car and drove to a gun-free location. But it is effective most of the time, including the New Years Eve fireworks and most thunderstorms. I’d tried DAP collars and sprays, Rescue Remedy, and a thunder shirt, and all of the above together, with no improvement. Sending best wishes for a quick recovery for the gastric troubles.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

fjm said:


> Poppy was recovering well from her bout of bloody diarrhoea and vomiting 10 days ago, but since finishing the metrodinazole at the weekend she has started vomiting a few hours after meals, and is obviously uncomfortable and not herself. I have been feeding her Royal Canin gastro sensitivity, which she loved and which rapidly stopped the diarrhoea and got her back to Perfect Poos (including one yesterday morning), but after 48 hours of throwing up most meals she decided she didn't want to eat it, although she was very keen to have something else. I added a tiny bit of cooked chicken to a small spoonful of RC, and she ate it all. Part of me thinks it might be better to starve her, but current advice is that the digestive system recovers more quickly if it is kept gently working with frequent small, bland meals. She is getting a Zitac dose every day to reduce acid, is drinking well, and has not lost any weight. It does not hurt her to rub her tummy, but she is showing signs of nausea and discomfort.
> 
> My vet thinks it will settle down as her digestive system recovers - the metrodinazole has a calming effect as well as being an AB, which may explain why she was so much more comfortable while taking it. If she doesn't pick up be tomorrow I will make a vet appointment. My anxieties immediately jump to worst case scenarios - cancer? Addisons? Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? She has had minor gastric upsets before, and is prone to acid tummy, but never anything like this.


Poor poppy! Get well soon! 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Oh dear Poppy - hope you are on the mend soon. Thoughts and prayers from Alabama.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She has now decided all the bland food I offer her is poison, so I am about to make a vet appointment. I think she needs something to control the nausea, at least. I will let you know how we get on.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm so sorry to hear that she's taken a step backwards. I have no advice, since no experience with this, but will have Poppy and you (and Sophy, and Cats) in my thoughts and hope she's feeling herself again very soon.


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## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Add me to the list of people keeping you in our thoughts. How stressful and scary. Your girl sounds like a trooper though. So sorry you have to go through this.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that she's taken a step backwards. I have no advice, since no experience with this, but will have Poppy and you (and Sophy, and Cats) in my thoughts and hope she's feeling herself again very soon.


Aww now Poppy stop and get eating your food! Feel better


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Just back from the vet, who agrees it needs investigating and has taken blood for testing - he will ring me this afternoon with the results. In the meantime he has given her an anti-nausea jab that lasts 24 hours, 7 days of Omeprazole, and a couple of cans of different gastric diets to try. I have with some difficulty got half the contents of an Omeprazole capsule into her (very difficult things to divide!), and will wait an hour or so before offering her food.

He is not ruling anything out at this stage - pancreatitis, tumour, Cushing's, Addison's or other possibilities, including bad gastritis. So now we wait, and hope the drugs she has had make her feel better soon, and that the underlying cause is nothing too scary.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Sorry to hear, sending healing vibes across the pond.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Blood tests results are in - liver enzymes are very high, indicating inflammation of the liver/bile duct. Could be cancer, but her vet considers infection is more likely. He has started her on antibiotics, and says that as long as she is eating a bit and drinking enough she can be managed at home, but should she deteriorate she will need to be hospitalised on a drip. She would not eat anything before I went to pick up the ABs, but has had a few teaspoonfuls of the new canned food made into a soup with warm water since we got home, so the anti-nausea medications seem to be working. We have another vet appointment tomorrow - her vet is away for a few days, but is briefing his next in line. I am very glad I followed my instincts and took her in immediately she stopped eating.

Poor sausage is very poorly and being very brave - hold us in your thoughts, people.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I do hope the antibiotics resolve this health issue so Poppy is back to her old self and feeling good.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh no...I hope it's an infection that can heal up and not cancer or some kind of liver disease. Have you thought about consulting a canine nutritionist to consult with for a liver friendly diet? I wonder if that might be easier on her. I remember doing that for my Dobe when he had liver disease. Even if Poppy doesn't have it, a diet that's easy on the liver might still make her feel better. You could ask your vet if that is called for yet. It excludes things like rice, which is high in magnesium, which I think is stored in the liver or maybe it's that it's hard to get out or metabolize. (I don't remember exactly) Anyhow, that diet had tapioca instead and things like sweet potato, regular potato, boiled chicken, hamburger, zucchini and a lot of other things I forget and a whole slew of supplements, loads and loads to make sure he was getting the calcium and other minerals and vitamins. Plus, he took Denosyl, Ursadial (sp?) and some other Rx. It's been a long time. But anyhow, if it turns out to be actual chronic liver disease, those things helped my dog feel a whole lot better for about a year and then he got stomach cancer. So I hope Poppy will pull through this and that it's a regular infection that will clear right up. Lots of get well vibes coming your way.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Poor Poppy! Hopefully the antibiotics clear everything up and she’ll be back to her usual perky self. Fingers crossed she continues to improve and eat the new food!!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She is managing about a teaspoonful of food at a time, which is several teaspoonfuls more than this morning. I am very worried about her though - I know very little about liver diseases other than cancer, so really need the vet to talk me through it tomorrow. Her vet did explain on the phone, but it is hard to ask the right questions till you have had time for the news to sink in and to think. I have, of course, googled but that just makes it worse - so many things to worry about!

I didn't get much sleep last night so we may go and snooze soon - at the moment both dogs are snuggled into their comfy beds at my feet and it is hard to believe there is anything wrong.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Aww I am just sorry this continues to be distressing for all of you. No advise, just good wishes.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm just so sorry.

Sending you my best wishes, little Poppy!


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

fjm said:


> She is managing about a teaspoonful of food at a time, which is several teaspoonfuls more than this morning. I am very worried about her though - I know very little about liver diseases other than cancer, so really need the vet to talk me through it tomorrow. Her vet did explain on the phone, but it is hard to ask the right questions till you have had time for the news to sink in and to think. I have, of course, googled but that just makes it worse - so many things to worry about!
> 
> I didn't get much sleep last night so we may go and snooze soon - at the moment both dogs are snuggled into their comfy beds at my feet and it is hard to believe there is anything wrong.


Sending you best wishes 

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Wishing you and Poppy well...


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm so sorry Poppy isn't feeling well again? sending good thoughts?


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Sending love and wishes for good health and rapid healing. I am sorry you and dear Poppy are having a very rough time right now. Many hugs. Cathy


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She is worse this morning. I shall phone the vets when they open in an hour or so, and ask if she can be seen immediately, and perhaps put on a drip if needed.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So sorry that she’s not improved - I hope the vet is able to help. Thinking of you!


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I am so sorry she's worse. Sending good thoughts and hugs for you and Poppy.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy is now hospitalised. She was so decidedly worse this morning - lethargic and shivery and hunched - that I decided not to wait to phone the vets but to take her straight over to be there when they opened at 8.30am, to catch the vet before morning surgery. He agreed Poppy needed to be on a drip ASAP, and that further tests are needed to pinpoint exactly what is going on. Some of yesterday's blood tests indicate liver failure, some indicate that the liver function is fine, and there are indications of pancreatitis as well, but that could be an effect rather than a cause. He will do a bile function test, and perhaps a scan, although he may hold that till the bile results are in tomorrow. She will be there for at least 24 hours, probably more - usually I would worry about stress, but she was too poorly to care much. I will keep this afternoon’s appointment so I can see her, and get an update. Vet said not to expect much change, but she should be brighter once fully hydrated. No point in asking for a prognosis till we know more about the cause, and that could require a biopsy. At the moment it is supportive and symptomatic treatment while they investigate.

At least I know she is being closely monitored and cared for - they will probably transfer her to the main hospital in Kendal this evening as that is staffed overnight.

I have promised Sophy a long walk this morning, which will do us both good. She has been angelically patient, poor love - glorious sunshine all day yesterday and we stayed in except for a visit to the vet when she stayed in the car and a hundred yards walk by the river, which was as much as Poppy could manage.

Thanks for your support, everyone - it helps to have people who understand the stomach churning anxiety. And thank heavens for my well-stuffed Peace-of-Mind savings account, which at least means I don't have to worry about the cost.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Best wishes for a speedy diagnosis. Here’s my recent experience with liver problems. Last June my non-spoo went to the ER with early morning pain, blood tests indicated liver problems, followed by a scan. She had a mass which wasn’t able to be biopsied. She had surgery to remove it, without knowing what it was, but the ending was somewhat positive. It was a slow-growing type of cancer that, if it returns, may not impact her lifespan (she’s 11). We’re having quarterly scans as follow-up to monitor any regrowth.

It was quite stressful to hear this news (7 cm growth) and need to make a decision immediately with limited test data. I was due to leave town for work 2 days later and am grateful that this didn’t happen with the dogs in boarding. Worst case it could have been a fatal/metastatic cancer and the surgery would have been for naught.

So sorry that Poppy is going through this and that you’re without her at home. It’s lonely with only one dog at home and they don’t know why there buddy isn’t there.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

So Sorry Poppy has gotten in a worse state but it is wonderful that you have such a good relationship with your vet. Hopefully the hydration will help her feel somewhat better and that she can begin to eat again and regain some strength while they figure out the problem. Warm thoughts to you as you go thru this ordeal.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear...I'm so sorry Poppy got to feeling poorer than she was before. Something is sure going on. I am confident as you must be that your vets will find out more specifically what's wrong and hopefully be able to manage it. I'm really sorry you're going through this. And poor little Poppy...at least they'll make her feel more comfortable. She's in good hands. Hope the walk with Sophy helps you two feel a little fresher.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh no, I’m so sorry to hear Poppy has gotten worse. At least now she is in good care. I’ll keep her in my thoughts. xxx


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That is so good to hear ScooterScout - I can well imagine your anxiety, especially when you were about to go away. 7cm is quite a size - thank heavens it wasn't an aggressive form.

I went to the vet’s at 2pm and spent 45 minutes taking Poppy out for a pee then snuggling her in the car. She was more than ready for the pee - the vet had tried but she wasn’t going to relax enough to do it with him there. She was slightly brighter after the hours on a drip, but still very ill. The good news is I can bring her home for the night this evening and take her back in tomorrow morning, so she can come and snuggle in bed instead of spending the night in a cage. She is getting antibiotics, anti-nausea and supportive medications through the drip 

Everything is still up in the air. The vet did a scan and could not see any abnormalities in the liver or bile duct, which is good news as far as it goes but far from conclusive. The bile acid test results tomorrow may tell us more. The next step, depending on the results, is a biopsy, which requires a general anaesthetic and a fairly large incision - the vet was sounding me out on whether I was prepared for that. That would then give enough information to know if it is an infection and which antibiotic is needed, or more generalised inflammation, in which case steroids would be the preferred treatment. The alternative is to throw everything at it, which risks overloading an already damaged liver. But then so does a GA…

A kind neighbour has agreed to drive me over to fetch her this evening, bless him - I am not happy these days driving in the dark at the best of times (cataracts forming), and even less so when I am in a high state of jitters.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Fjm I’m so glad you will be able to take her home on the evening so she has some respite from the stress of being at the vet. But this is incredibly sad that she is still so ill and they haven’t narrowed down the diagnosis. This really is a quite the ordeal for you and Poppy. 

I had hoped the antibiotic would kick in quickly and you would see a huge improvement. Sending huge healing thoughts. We are all worried for both you and Poppy.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So sorry not to hear better news, but glad you got to have a visit and so good that you can take her home. Fingers and toes crossed for a treatable diagnosis soon! 
Thinking of you, it’s so completely terrifying when they’re ill!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, the not knowing is very stressful, but some of the tests require out of house lab work up and that takes 24 hours. It may be well into next week before she has the biopsy, if she needs it. I know the vets are doing everything according to the book, though, and am not going to try and second guess their expertise. All I can do is make sure she is comfortable, and has the very best chance of recovering. I am very aware that there may be difficult decisions ahead, but for now I am taking one day at a time.

Meanwhile she is home, has eaten a small meal with some enthusiasm, and is decidedly better than this morning. That is probably down to being fully hydrated, and the fluids flushing some of the toxins from her system. She now just wants to sleep - I think we all do!


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## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Here’s some belly rubs for both your doggies ?. And a hug for you. ?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you, Porkchop. Poppy attempted a heartbreaking little prance when I was getting her food, but couldn't manage it due to the stiff bandage covering the cannula, and general wobbliness. She was trying so hard to be bouncy...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh dear I am very disappointed for you in all of this today. Hopefully a good snuggly night will make it easier for her to spend more time at the clinic tomorrow. Hoping for answers without too much invasive testing.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh that prance! Lifts and breaks my heart. Thinking of you and Poppy.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

One day at a time. For now things are a little better so let’s hope it continues.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, you must be a nervous wreck. I know I would be. It's very nice you can have her at home to sleep with and reassure her. It is a mystery, isn't it. I know how it is...that you really need to know what's going on so you don't over load her liver if it's not necessary. Poor Poppy. I'm routing for some successful diagnosis and treatment. What a nice neighbor.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Hugs to you both.


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## CSC (Dec 17, 2019)

fjm said:


> Poppy was recovering well from her bout of bloody diarrhoea and vomiting 10 days ago, but since finishing the metrodinazole at the weekend she has started vomiting a few hours after meals, and is obviously uncomfortable and not herself. I have been feeding her Royal Canin gastro sensitivity, which she loved and which rapidly stopped the diarrhoea and got her back to Perfect Poos (including one yesterday morning), but after 48 hours of throwing up most meals she decided she didn't want to eat it, although she was very keen to have something else. I added a tiny bit of cooked chicken to a small spoonful of RC, and she ate it all. Part of me thinks it might be better to starve her, but current advice is that the digestive system recovers more quickly if it is kept gently working with frequent small, bland meals. She is getting a Zitac dose every day to reduce acid, is drinking well, and has not lost any weight. It does not hurt her to rub her tummy, but she is showing signs of nausea and discomfort.
> 
> My vet thinks it will settle down as her digestive system recovers - the metrodinazole has a calming effect as well as being an AB, which may explain why she was so much more comfortable while taking it. If she doesn't pick up be tomorrow I will make a vet appointment. My anxieties immediately jump to worst case scenarios - cancer? Addisons? Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? She has had minor gastric upsets before, and is prone to acid tummy, but never anything like this.


Has she been near a pond or standing water. We lost a dog to pythiosis with similar symptoms.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I am thinking of you and dear Poppy. What a trying and scary time! Many warm healing wishes for your sweet girl.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Hoping that you and Poppy and co. are having a restful night. It was good to hear that Poppy pranced a bit; she was so glad to be home it seems!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

CSC said:


> Has she been near a pond or standing water. We lost a dog to pythiosis with similar symptoms.


Or ingested any garlic, onions, chives, or leeks? 

Just stabbing around, I know, but some very dogsy folks aren't aware these can be dangerous, even just in broths. My parents have had dogs their whole life and had no idea. They didn't know about grapes either! Dogs need to come with user manuals 

Happy to know that Poppy is stable enough to be home with you. Can't imagine how scary a night at the vet's office must be. It's so hard to walk away.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have been trying and trying to think of possible causes. There is always water around where we walk - this is a very rainy area - but Poppy rarely drinks from it and never paddles except in the heat of summer, and I am very aware of blue green algae as a danger and keep them away from areas it has been reported - it is mostly a summer problem here. I certainly haven't given her anything she should not have, and don't think she could have stolen anything like that from neighbours' gardens recently, plus the most common human food toxins cause anaemia (alliums) or kidney damage (grapes) rather than attack the liver. Lepto can, and that is a possibility, but so are so many other things. Most acute liver failure seems to be idiopathic, with no known cause. It feels that this has been going on for a lifetime, but it is only 42 hours since she saw the vet, when she was bright and breezy, and only 48 hours since she first stopped eating. She started the ABs 36 hours ago, so it may still be too soon for them to be showing much effect. 

She is still very poorly this morning, but she has eaten quite a bit of chicken, which she refused yesterday morning, so the anti-nausea meds are working at least. Back to the vets this morning, bile test results this afternoon, and then decisions to be made about the weekend. I am trying to be hopeful and positive, but I am very fearful she is not going to come through this.

Thank you all for your support - it is much needed and much appreciated.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am so glad you have a caring vet and helpful neighbor at least. I am sure just being with you again is a comfort to Poppy. Sending prayers and hugs.

Glad she is eating chicken. When my spoo was so ill he almost died raw chicken was what got him on the mend. That bout cost over 2 K and they never did find out what was wrong.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hope that chicken fortifies her for the day ahead. ❤


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Keeping all the good thoughts coming! Much love to you and Poppy x


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Fjm, I have been praying for you and Poppy and sending love from Oliver and me, and it is well past time I logged in to tell you. You do have a good vet and he seems to care very much for you both. I hope Poppy can turn the corner very soon. She knows she is deeply loved. ???


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

A small glimmer of hope to share. Poppy ate a small breakfast, and I went in at lunchtime to take her out for a pee and into the car for a snuggle, and offered her more chicken and rice, which she practically gobbled, eating nearly all of it before she had enough. My vet nurse and human nurse friends tell me this is a Good Sign, and I am grasping every scrap of comfort I can.

Appointment to discuss the results in an hour or two, and my kind neighbour is taking me. Our favourite vet nurse who knows Poppy well is on shift this afternoon, so she will probably have been getting cuddles too. I think she is getting accustomed to the routine there - she was dithery, but not as bad as yesterday.

ETA 
Poppy is home for the night. The test results still weren’t in, although the vet hung on as late as possible hoping they would be. He can access them from home, and expects them before tomorrow morning, when he will brief the vet taking surgery on the treatment plan. I have an appointment at 10.40. If she goes down in the night I can take her to Kendal for more fluids.

After two days on a drip to flush the toxins she is feeling much brighter, and is eating well. The vet warned me that the improvement is due to the fluids rather than a change in the underlying condition, though - she is now showing signs of the jaundice he expected earlier. But it is lovely to have her happier, even if it is just for a few hours. I asked about prognosis and it is too early to say - cases of infection can do well with care and management; a tumour is, of course, another matter. He is obviously expecting to need to do a biopsy op next week. Meanwhile she is hungry, much more cheerful, and very happy to be home. Ben wondered why she started yapping and bouncing at 4.30pm, when she had been quiet all day - until I told him that was the time I walked through the surgery door!

So no further forward, but no further back, either.


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## pudelgirl (Mar 30, 2017)

I have been following this thread. I am very sorry Poppy is so unwell. I hope you have answers and a plan soon. Thinking of you and your dear girls.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

After two days of fluids she is very nearly bouncy this morning - lovely to see her so much better and hungry for breakfast, even if it is a temporary respite. Vet appointment later this morning, by which time I really hope we will know more.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Glad she is a bit happier this morning - fingers crossed for some good news for you today!! xx


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Am I sorry that Poppy has been so ill, I am on the throes of dealing with a pancreatic episode with Walter, his is back on pain meds, got an IV sub Q fluids yesterday, it's been too painful for him to poo or pee much last couple days. Walter wasn't presenting proper symptoms for a pancreatitis no vomiting only so eating and belly pain.
I did find out through loads of reading about pancreatitis that IBS can cause pancreatitis so maybe that is what is happening with Poppy?
I am hoping your dear girl is on the mend


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

That is definitely a possibility we are considering, Twyla. I discussed it with the vet this morning, in fact, as I have always considered Poppy a likely candidate for pancreatitis. I have to be constantly alert or she raids bins, steals cat food, gobbles anything she can and generally sets herself up for sickness. As far as humanly possible I keep everything out of her reach, but it would not surprise me in the least to find she has been suffering from sub-clinical pancreatitis for a while. That in turn can cause inflammation of the bile duct and liver, which would begin to explain her symptoms and test results. But so would several other conditions, up to and including a malignant tumour, so we can't even begin to be sure without the bile and dilute ALT test results (still not received), and quite possibly an investigative op and biopsy.

But today she is much brighter and nearly bouncy - so much so that my neighbours are finding it hard to believe she is ill at all. She has started tablets to thin the bile and support the liver, and I am hoping she will stay stable till we eventually get the test results and can plan the next steps. Vets are being brilliant - phone calls and emails to keep each other fully informed as they pass the case on to the next one on duty, and immensely detailed notes in her records so I don't have to explain it all again.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Gentle hugs to you. I'm so sorry you've been going through this. Thank you for the update. I'm holding you in the light.
Click


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Thinking of you and Poppy??


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Continued good thoughts and prayers for sweet Poppy...


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Thanks for the news, let’s hope she keeps getting better !


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am beginning to dare to hope she may be getting better. She woke bouncy and hungry this morning, and to me her ears and eyes seem less yellow. If it were a bounce from the fluids I would expect her to peak a few hours after they were administered, and then begin to slowly decline again. She had a short acting steroid on Friday, which also would have worn off by now. There may still be something major going on, but in the absence of all the test results I think the pancreatitis/bile duct inflammation hypothesis best fits her symptoms and progression.

Anyway, one day at a time, and today she is much better. Meanwhile Sophy has started diarrhoea - she could just be picking up on my stress, but there are a lot of nasty bugs around, as I know after spending so many hours at the vet's this week!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Sending hope that Poppy is on the mend, that Sophy is having just a one off, and you are all able to relax again very soon.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> I am beginning to dare to hope she may be getting better. She woke bouncy and hungry this morning, and to me her ears and eyes seem less yellow. If it were a bounce from the fluids I would expect her to peak a few hours after they were administered, and then begin to slowly decline again. She had a short acting steroid on Friday, which also would have worn off by now. There may still be something major going on, but in the absence of all the test results I think the pancreatitis/bile duct inflammation hypothesis best fits her symptoms and progression.
> 
> Anyway, one day at a time, and today she is much better. Meanwhile Sophy has started diarrhoea - she could just be picking up on my stress, but there are a lot of nasty bugs around, as I know after spending so many hours at the vet's this week!
> 
> ...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Mick. She is getting rice gruel with a little chicken - trying to keep up both calories and protein, and that is what she wants to eat. I have read that oatmeal is good for liver cases, but I will check with my vet first to make sure there is no chance of it exacerbating the pancreatitis that we think may be at the root of her problems. I will bear the Carafate in mind also, but at the moment I am simply following the vets' instructions to the letter and dosing her as prescribed. It would require a prescription in the UK, so when we are through this I will ask if they advise it.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So glad things are starting to look up! Continuing to send all the good thoughts. 

Hopefully poor Sophy is over her upset tummy soon too!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She seems to me better by the hour, but I daren't hope that it is permanent until we have we test results and have talked with the vets. Off to bed soon - here's hoping she is still feeling bouncy in the morning. Thanks everyone - it has been a tough few days.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> Thanks Mick. She is getting rice gruel with a little chicken - trying to keep up both calories and protein, and that is what she wants to eat. I have read that oatmeal is good for liver cases, but I will check with my vet first to make sure there is no chance of it exacerbating the pancreatitis that we think may be at the root of her problems. I will bear the Carafate in mind also, but at the moment I am simply following the vets' instructions to the letter and dosing her as prescribed. It would require a prescription in the UK, so when we are through this I will ask if they advise it.


FJM (sorry, don’t know your name), I understand what you are saying, I’d consult my vet as well. If Poppy can manage on the food that you give, thank God for small favors. 
I hope I wasn’t intrusive or sounded like “know it all”, for it was not my intent. Also, I don’t know Poppy’s age and I didn’t realize right away that you are I’m UK.
The school of thought might be quite different between vets in UK and US.
My Sasha is over 9 yrs. old. and our vet watches her liver enzymes and urine like a hawk. Her explanation is that dogs have very small livers, so as they age, their ability to digest/excrete protein decreases, so we were told to watch the amount of protein from meat. Sasha having high anxiety, on/off has high sounds of peristalsis in the mornings, which scares ( or hurts her?) and won’t eat her kibbles with some canned pumpkin. We have to cook oatmeal and mix it with dry curd cottage cheese, then, since she refuses food, I literally spoon feed her till the sounds stop. Once her stomach calms down, she is looking for her food. 
if Poppy‘s pancreas is inflamed, you are wise to be concerned about effect of carbs from oatmeal. 
Carafate requires prescription in US as well, but it’s better for gastritis, ulcers, etc. Not sure it would be useful for pancreatitis.

I saw your last post. Hope you all get a good night’s rest and both girls wake up feeling better.
Good night.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You certainly didn't sound intrusive, Mick, just offering everything you could think of that might help in the very best PF tradition, and I am very grateful. I hope I didn't sound dismissive - several days of stress and sleepless nights can play merry hell with one's social skills! Poppy's tummy has never stopped her eating (she is always ravenous for anything on offer) and it has always looked very like IBS, with a strong element of being stress induced. She had a full blood panel just over 12 months ago and everything was fine, but after this I may well ask my vet about more frequent tests. I suspect she will be getting lots over the coming weeks.

Poppy is positively bouncing this morning - still far from 100% but still improving. At the moment there is an argument going on as to who should get the best position on my lap. Poppy very reluctantly moved over for Sophy, and now Pippin-cat is slowly spreading his considerable weight to push Sophy off...


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I've been thinking about you guys. I'm glad Poppy is bouncy today! and is improving!? Oh my goodness!? (Hugs?)


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This news makes me feel bouncy


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have spoken to the vet. The latest test results are so astronomically off the scale (think 50 - 100 times normal) that he says they indicate very significant liver failure - he thinks much of the improvement over the weekend is down to the steroid she had on Friday. At the moment the results are too high for him to want to risk an anaesthetic, so we are holding on the biopsy. He is prescribing a steroid, and says to continue as we are for now. Appointment made for Wednesday, for more bloods and discussion. We are very far from out of the woods, and the prognosis is, to say the least, very guarded. IF we can find and treat the root cause and IF, despite the extremely high test results, her liver is not so damaged it cannot regenerate she may recover, but they are two very big ifs.

So for now I will take each day as it comes, and make every one as filled with nice, happy, comforting things for her as I can. Please keep us in your thoughts, PF friends.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

(((Hugs))) for you and Poppy.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Gentle hugs.
Click


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am so sad to awaken to see this report. sad with you, but hope for a silver lining in there somewhere.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Poppy sounds as if she is very happy to be at home surrounded by you and your love. I hope with you that there is a possibility of a good recovery and that in the meantime you enjoy each other's company.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> You certainly didn't sound intrusive, Mick, just offering everything you could think of that might help in the very best PF tradition, and I am very grateful. I hope I didn't sound dismissive - several days of stress and sleepless nights can play merry hell with one's social skills! Poppy's tummy has never stopped her eating (she is always ravenous for anything on offer) and it has always looked very like IBS, with a strong element of being stress induced. She had a full blood panel just over 12 months ago and everything was fine, but after this I may well ask my vet about more frequent tests. I suspect she will be getting lots over the coming weeks.
> 
> Poppy is positively bouncing this morning - still far from 100% but still improving. At the moment there is an argument going on as to who should get the best position on my lap. Poppy very reluctantly moved over for Sophy, and now Pippin-cat is slowly spreading his considerable weight to push Sophy off...





fjm said:


> You certainly didn't sound intrusive, Mick, just offering everything you could think of that might help in the very best PF tradition, and I am very grateful. I hope I didn't sound dismissive - several days of stress and sleepless nights can play merry hell with one's social skills! Poppy's tummy has never stopped her eating (she is always ravenous for anything on offer) and it has always looked very like IBS, with a strong element of being stress induced. She had a full blood panel just over 12 months ago and everything was fine, but after this I may well ask my vet about more frequent tests. I suspect she will be getting lots over the coming weeks.
> 
> Poppy is positively bouncing this morning - still far from 100% but still improving. At the moment there is an argument going on as to who should get the best position on my lap. Poppy very reluctantly moved over for Sophy, and now Pippin-cat is slowly spreading his considerable weight to push Sophy off...


You weren’t dismissive. You are under too much stress. Have you at least slept last night? Our girls easily pick up on it, much better than people.
It sounded like Poppy had quite a few tests already, but some of the results are still not in. Which tests do you intend to ask for?
What you described about Poppy being always ravenous, sounds like Sasha, but Sasha wants only human food ?, smarty pants.
I’m so glad Poppy is a bit better this morning. How’s Sophie doing?
Pippin sounds like a territorial and not very considerate creature. Cats have the psychology of their own. Hang on and don’t loose hope.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think Wednesday's tests are to see if she is making any progress back towards normality - I am simply following my vets' advice at this stage. From everything I have been able to read they are following all the best practice protocols, and I trust them completely. But I am very aware that with this diagnosis we have moved from "may survive" to "probably won't survive", and that the focus is moving to palliative care.

But Poppy knows none of this, and I am trying hard not to let my anxiety and grief poison our time together. As far as she is concerned she has had a few rather trying days at the vet, feels a bit not-quite, and chicken is raining from the skies, which for her makes up for a great deal, especially as she is quite unaware that every third piece hides a tablet. I do not know how long we have - I am now trying to think like a dog when today is enough. Grief does not get easier with experience, but perhaps one does learn a little wisdom about using time to build good memories rather than dreading what is to come. A kind neighbour has a mantra - "It is what it is, and we deal with what we've got" and that is what I am trying to do - everything possible to give her a chance, while recognising that it may well not be enough, and that all I can do is make her happy for today.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh man. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. The pictures of Sophy and Poppy sitting on posts looking around gave me a lot of smiles over the years.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

This is making my heart hurt with you. I am so sorry this is happening. I'm sending you love and kindness. Wish I could do more. Know I am holding you in the light, a warm gentle glow of warmth and tenderness.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So many hugs your way xx


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hugs to you and Poppy ?


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm so sorry for this worrisome turn of events. Your little family of three has had so many grand adventures together, sharing the joy of life. I hope that today is a good day for all of you and filled with love.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Everyone woke up happy, ate a good breakfast, mugged the kind neighbour for treats (I am uneasy about the quality and size of the ones he buys, so have given him a pot of safe home made tiny ones to feed them), and went out in the car for a walk. Poppy had a potter round the Catholic Church car park (not technically open to the public, but they are generous), and then Sophy and I went for a longer walk along what used to be a railway track while Pop snuggled in the car. Sophy was reluctant to leave Poppy, and has slight diarrhoea - both probably stress but I have arranged an appointment for her along with Poppy's tomorrow. The staff there absolutely understand that I am feeling rather paranoid about gastric upsets at the moment.

I have even girded my loins and vacuumed the sitting room - very much needed.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Healing thoughts your way from us here in Texas.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m so sorry for this outcome. I think Poppy is lucky to have such a caring mom. As you said, one day at a time. Poppy is happy for now. xxx


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear...I'm so sorry about this. I've had two dogs with liver disease and it was difficult. Like I said, Lyric, my Dobe went along all right for about a year after dx. He had meds and special diet that made him comfortable. That darn prednisone is a double edged sword isn't it. It makes them feel better but it further damages the liver. I do hope Poppy can get along comfortably for some more time to enjoy her life. She's certainly had a good one with you and Sophie. My heart goes out to you during this touch and go time. You are wise to try to mask your trepidation and anxiety. It will help her and Sophie. I hope Sophie's diarrhea is something she'll get right over. Lots of loving thoughts coming to you across the pond. (((hugs)))


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I heard such sad news today. A dog walking acquaintance - one of those people you meet dog walking and chat to frequently, till you know all about their dogs but little about their own lives - has lost both his little dogs since Christmas, one (age 12) to a massive undiagnosed tumour and one (age 8) to undiagnosed Cushings complicated by diabetes and pancreatitis. I was talking to his mother in law down by the river, and she was clearly still in shock and holding her own little dog close. Both deaths were sudden too, within a few days of symptoms starting, so they had no time to prepare.

Hold your loved ones close, people, and make each and every day one filled with kindness - who knows what tomorrow brings.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think it is important to treat everyday as though you don't know what tomorrow might bring. For me it keeps me grounded and always trying to offer the best I can to the world up close and all around.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I was hit by a bus years ago, while crossing at a walk sign. Not going to sugarcoat it—it was a horrible experience, with lifelong repercussions. But it taught me many lessons about what to worry about and—more importantly—what NOT to worry about. To take that energy and use it more productively.

Sounds like you're already excellent at making the most of the moment, tackling only what's necessary and within your control. Kudos to you.

Thanks for sharing your experience so candidly (and your wisdom so generously) with us. Gentle hugs to you and Sophy and Poppy today.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Keeping you all in my thoughts,

Rose


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## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

This is heartbreaking news. You’re a such a good mom to your fur babies. It would be hard to hide your grief. But you’re being strong for your girl. She’s going to have the best care and love while you cherish the time you have, however long that may be. More hugs and love to you all.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I am so sorry to hear about this. Sending more hugs and good thoughts to you and your furbabies.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

We have hope! I saw the vet this afternoon, and he said her response to the steroids and other drugs makes him hopeful that she will make at least a partial recovery, and maintain the quality of life she has at the moment - he was much more sanguine than when I saw him on Friday. He has taken bloods, although it is too soon to expect a change, and scanned what I feared was fluid build up in her abdomen - it is just a very full tummy from four meals a day! I came away with a bagful of drugs and prescription food for the next couple of weeks - unless I have concerns the next appointment is in a fortnight, when they will do more bloods and a bile acid test. 

I also asked for a full blood panel for Sophy. The vet didn't think there was anything wrong other than stress induced diarrhoea, but agreed at her age it was a good idea, if only as a baseline for future reference. And it will set my mind at rest, which may be enough to cure her symptoms.

So I can relax just a little, and I may start to eat and sleep properly, too. Thank you all so much for your kindness during this shattering week. We are not out of the woods - the next few weeks will show more - but after last week just having hope makes a big difference.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Thank goodness! And what a nice reason for the puffy abdomen. Try to follow Poppy's example (as we all should) as she enjoys each day and the love around her.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Wonderful hopeful news! Welcome to the land of glad!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I am so glad to hear this news. Know I am still holding you in the light.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is hopeful news. I hope she stabilizes and I know you are being wise and loving in treating each day as loaded with fun, snuggles and adventures.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

That’s great news! Enjoy every moment of these good days.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Quick PS - by the time we got home my shoulders had dropped several inches, and Sophy's ears had gone up about the same amount - I suspect the correlation is that close! She suddenly found her appetite again, dragged me down onto the floor to play a silly game with Rat, and dashed around joyously before settling down for a snooze.

Poppy is snuggly and comfy...


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm really happy to hear about the hopeful news.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hoping along with you.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Lovely news! Here's hoping the three of you continue onward and upward!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

You and Sophy and Poppy are in my thoughts. Wishing Poppy a smooth recovery!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

You wrote this so beautifully: "Grief does not get easier with experience, but perhaps one does learn a little wisdom about using time to build good memories rather than dreading what is to come." 
I would love to be able to quote you. I have had so much experience with the grief, but had been down on myself for not being able to deal with it better. I am focusing on the good memories, and letting go of any negative ones.

You are setting such a good example for all of us to reach out when in pain. Thank you and blessings. May your beloved Poppy be well


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Glad to hear this! The pups can definitely sense our anxiety so it’s so great that you can already see changes in Sophy. 

Keeping my fingers crossed and thoughts with you xx


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you Kontiki. I don't think any of us deal with grief "well", but I do know that kindness helps.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I'm am sorry you have had to deal with so much over the past few weeks. Our pups can certainly take a toll on us and our health too. I am glad she is recovering and that you have more quality time with her. It all sounds promising. My 18 year old chihuahua also had liver issues, I don't know exactly what but the vet would no longer put him under anesthesia even though he badly need a teeth cleaning. It was probably at least the last 4 years that his enzymes were very high.


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## Soleil (Dec 4, 2010)

Hello, I haven't posted in years but I wanted to share what happened with my Charlie. I don't know if anyone has suggested PLE?

In November 2018, I moved to another state and soon after, Charlie started vomiting and having constant diarrhea. At first I thought it was the stress of the move since he always had a bit of a sensitive stomach. I changed his diet to bland chicken and it didn't help. Took him to the vet and they gave him the chunky tablets. He didn't improve. I took him to another vet and they ran several tests over the next several weeks but nothing. The vet referred me to one of the only two gastrointestinal specialists in the city. They ran several tests over a few weeks. They ruled out Addisons and several other things. I was thinking it was cancer. Then they finally concluded that he has Protein Losing Enteropathy. (The name of the actual condition he was diagnosed with escapes me right now but it's PLE.) He's on the royal canin gastrointestinal diet. (Which I see your pup is on.) Charlie hates the food but he is right as rain now. He likes it better when I add a little water. Charlie has had two check ups with the specialist since then and all his tests have come back negative.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks so much Soleil - I am glad you found out what was causing Charlie's problems - gastric upsets seem to be linked to so many things. It is very certain now that Poppy has liver failure, we are just uncertain as to the cause, but she is responding well to treatment. She is now on the hepatic diet, and is happy and comfortable - so much so that I am allowing myself to hope she will come through this with a good quality of life. 

I wish you were close enough for me to pass on the 24 cans of RC gastrointestinal diet now sitting unused and unneeded in the cupboard...!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

My vet was kind enough to buy back the unopened cans of special dietary food they had sold me. I hope your vet will also.

Can you explain the hepatic diet?
So glad she is happy and comfortable. Whew!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I bought the gastro food on the internet - it's not a problem, as I am sure one of the local rescues will be happy to have any I don't need. I haven't quite wrapped my head around the hepatic one - it is recommended by my vet, and as I am not comfortable feeding just chicken and rice long term, and have not been able yet to turn my mind to researching if there are better diets, I have taken it as the easy option for now. It is very high in calories so doesn't overload the stomach, low in fat, and supposedly contains easily processed, low purine proteins plus various useful extras. Poppy is getting a little more protein as all her various tablets come wrapped in chicken breast - the words "Medicine time" now bring all four animals running, and I have to be careful to make sure Poppy gets the loaded bit!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear...I'm sorry about this news Fjm. Liver disease seems to be fairly common and it can be caused by all kinds of things...even genetic. My Dobe had a lot of tests...biopsies, ultra sounds, blood transfusions, you name it. He had a too small liver for one thing. He had 2 kinds of liver disease; one being copper storage disease where the liver can't get rid of the copper in the diet sufficiently and it builds to toxic levels. The other was regular old active chronic hepatitis. He was sick...like your Poppy. Vomiting, diarrhea after he'd eat. I started feeding chicken and rice at that time before his Dx. Then after consulting a nutritionist, I learned that rice was no good for liver disease. The manganese and magnesium is hard for the liver to metabolize or get rid of. Maybe that was on account of the copper storage problem...I'm not sure. Anyhow, that and his prescriptions helped him a lot for a good year or so. It doesn't cure anything but he felt better....until he got stomach cancer. And yes, the prednisone. Ugh. Good and bad stuff. Then my Lab had liver disease...caused seizures in her. And she went along for a while okay.

So hopefully, Poppy can get situated a little bit and go along on an even keel and it would be wonderful if she can over come this. It is frightening news though and I'm so sorry you're dealing with this. (((hugs)))

And no doubt, the shelter will love having the donation.


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## Mick (Sep 7, 2012)

fjm said:


> I have spoken to the vet. The latest test results are so astronomically off the scale (think 50 - 100 times normal) that he says they indicate very significant liver failure - he thinks much of the improvement over the weekend is down to the steroid she had on Friday. At the moment the results are too high for him to want to risk an anaesthetic, so we are holding on the biopsy. He is prescribing a steroid, and says to continue as we are for now. Appointment made for Wednesday, for more bloods and discussion. We are very far from out of the woods, and the prognosis is, to say the least, very guarded. IF we can find and treat the root cause and IF, despite the extremely high test results, her liver is not so damaged it cannot regenerate she may recover, but they are two very big ifs.
> 
> So for now I will take each day as it comes, and make every one as filled with nice, happy, comforting things for her as I can. Please keep us in your thoughts, PF friends.


I’m so sorry, I haven’t gotten an alert until today. Darn technology.
My thoughts and prayers are with you, Poppy and Sophie.
You are dealing with unbearable, but taking it day at a time. Wish I could put my arms around you and lend you my shoulder. Please, keep writing and share your pain. You are not alone. 
As for Poppy not knowing, what you do, it’s a blessing in disguise. Whatever can be done to keep her free of pain, keeping her happy with little things, now means a lot. 
Try to rest when they are sleeping. You need all your strength.
Big hug


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thank you Mick. The vet is now hopeful she will recover - not 100%, but enough to maintain the very good quality of life she has at present, but there are no guarantees. For now I am following vet instructions to the letter, and then filling her days with lots of happy moments. She has another appointment in 10 days or so, the results from those tests may show us whether things are getting better or worse.

And thanks for the virtual shoulder to lean on - I have been relying on family and friends and PF very much these last weeks, and the kindness has really helped.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

LOL about the Pavlovian response to ‘medicine time.’ I, too, use that word with the same reaction! So glad to hear the hopeful news this morning.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so glad that Poppy is responding well to the new treatment so you both have more time together. Hugs and wet kisses to you and all your pets.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

fjm said:


> The vet is now hopeful she will recover - not 100%, but enough to maintain the very good quality of life she has at present, but there are no guarantees. For now I am following vet instructions to the letter, and then filling her days with lots of happy moments.


Wow, this is absolutely the best news I have heard from anywhere today! ???
Hoping the vet is wrong and it's even better than expected!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Today she did two Proper Poos, bounced around playing Hunt the Treat, and has been so bright and happy it is hard to believe there is anything wrong. I am allowing myself to feel a little more confident she may come through this - it is still too soon to know whether her liver will recover, but for the moment she is doing well.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

scooterscout99 said:


> LOL about the Pavlovian response to ‘medicine time.’ I, too, use that word with the same reaction! So glad to hear the hopeful news this morning.


We had a diabetic dog who required insulin twice a day. A call for "needle time" brought _all_ the dogs running for a treat


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

fjm I really don't talk too much about about having chronically ill pets. Between Walter's pancreas issues and megacolon along with Beatrice's chronic kidney and terminal cancer. 
Keeping an upbeat demeanor helps them and you, sometimes it's hard to keep yourself in a good place, but I agree it's no time to mourn yet as your furry friend is still very much with you.
Wish you and Poppy well on this difficult journey


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

So happy that Poppy is bright and herself again.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm glad Poppy is bouncy and doing good!?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy has been doing well, but today refused her lunch of canned hepatic food. Poppy _never _refuses food, and at the moment she is on steroids, which make her even hungrier than usual. She did eat some chicken and rice, but it is a worrying sign. I phoned her vet, who said to try to keep her on the hepatic diet, to offer her chicken and rice if she refuses that, and to call in for an anti-nausea medicine if she does not improve in 24 hours. He said we are already throwing everything possible into getting her right, so he doesn't want to make any other changes at the moment...

So keep sending hopeful thoughts, please folks.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Sending you hope and love. Gentle hugs.

Click


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Sending hope ❤


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Much hope your way xx


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Sending hope and hugs??


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## pudelgirl (Mar 30, 2017)

Healing thoughts your way. Did the tests ever reveal the cause of her liver disease, or are you still waiting for results? I hope whatever it is can be managed longterm while still allowing her a good quality of life.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The only way of being sure of the cause is a biopsy, and she is well enough for the op, so at the moment the vets are concentrating on getting the inflammation down, bile flowing, and supporting the liver as much as possible - hence the importance of the supportive diet. But even the best food is no good if she won't eat it, so I may need to concoct a second best. She ate a good breakfast of about 40% canned, 60% chicken and rice - she is hungry, just not for the "right" food!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Sending a continual flow of hope your way


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Poppy was used to eating homemade meals, no wonder the tinned special diet is so unappetizing to her. Is there anyway you could prepare a home cooked version of the liver diet? Or is there a liver friendly topper you can add to make the tinned more appealing?

we are all cheering Poppy back to good health.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Thinking of you and Poppy. Does she prefer warm food? Does she like it served into her bowl out of a special cook pan? For example: cook your regular home food and scrape into a container. Inconspicuously put Poppy’s canned food into the unwashed cooking pan to warm and stir. Fill her bowl and see if she calls your bluff ?

I hope you and Poppy have a warm and snuggly day.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> The only way of being sure of the cause is a biopsy, and she is well enough for the op, so at the moment the vets are concentrating on getting the inflammation down, bile flowing, and supporting the liver as much as possible - hence the importance of the supportive diet. But even the best food is no good if she won't eat it, so I may need to concoct a second best. She ate a good breakfast of about 40% canned, 60% chicken and rice - she is hungry, just not for the "right" food!


At my clinic we have a nutrition textbook (sponsored by Royal Canin) that contains recipes for homemade diets geared to specific disease processes. Maybe ask your vet if they have something similar, and if not I could pm you a picture of the hepatic support diets. Even if you don't follow the recipe precisely it might give you some ideas of good food additives for Poppy.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Starvt, that would be brilliant - yes please! My vet is being careful, and has accepted chicken-and-rice as a short term measure, given me a couple of doses of anti-nausea medicine, and said to bring her in immediately if she deteriorates. When we got home I made rice porridge with chicken stock and added minced cooked chicken, and she licked the bowl clean - the anti-nausea meds are still in my pocket. I think the hepatic diet is just insufficiently appealing to tempt her. I am more than happy to cook for her, but need to get it as right as I can - if you could pm me a scan of the suggested recipes that would be great.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm back at work on Saturday and will get it then ?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, after stopping the canned food and giving Poppy chicken porridge instead she is bouncing round the room demanding games, and telling me it _must _be time for another meal by now! Perhaps I should try eating more oats myself...


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Glad to hear Poppy is bouncy. I do hope you are able to find a healthy diet to keep her that way. Sorry you're going through all this stress. Gentle hugs. 

Click


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

We saw Poppy's usual vet this morning for a check and blood tests - I have made an appointment to discuss the results with him on Monday. He explained that the best case scenario is that she has had an acute liver infection, from which she could make a complete recovery. The most likely scenario is that there is chronic liver disease, the prognosis then depending on how aggressive it is - many dogs manage a good quality of life for several years with careful management. Worst case would be aggressive disease or aggressive tumour. He cheerfully acknowledged that nutrition is not his specialty, that if I had done my usual research I probably knew more about Poppy’s precise needs than he did, and to carry on feeding her what she was enjoying with the supplement I tracked down - the important thing is to keep her eating a good diet, and the vitamin supplement may help and won't harm. 

So the probability is life limiting rather than immediately dangerous, and my shoulders have dropped another inch. They may, of course, go straight back up when I see the blood test results, but at the moment her life is very good. She does not want to go for walks, but is very happy playing in the house, pootling around the grounds here or going on short forays from the car to meet human and canine friends, and four meals a day with chicken medicines in between is Pop's idea of heaven. The steroids - which may get adjusted down next week - are making her drink and pee more than usual, including occasional night time incontinence, so I am waking her up and taking her out in the early hours - if it becomes an issue I will make incontinence pants for her, but at the moment we are coping.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Glad to hear that Poppy is coping and sorry that you have to wait so long for the test results. Hoping that you can stay in the Poppy moment until then.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hope the tests give some clarity and that you will have a better picture of her prognosis after Monday. As scooterscout said just above and in my general way of thinking we should all live in the moment with peace and joy. One never knows what is around the corner.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I chose to wait till Monday for an appointment with her own vet, rather than try and take in all the details over the phone. I think the bile acid test needs to go out of house - that is the one we were waiting for last time - and now that Poppy is stable everything feels a little less urgent. Her vet said there are many different possible causes, but the treatment is much the same for all of them, so for the moment it is steady as we go.

And yes - seize the day. A friend has just lost her much loved ridgeback to lung cancer. He only began to show any symptoms 10 days ago, so the diagnosis and speed of his collapse came as a tremendous shock.

Today we went to the shore and Poppy had a nice hundred yard sniff and wander along the salt marshes. Then she snuggled in the car while Sophy and I did a rather more vigorous couple of miles. I have a batch of chicken treats in the oven, chicken porridge cooling by the stove, and we are just going for a walk around the garden - Poppy reckons life is good!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

It sounds like Poppy had a good day today! Best wishes for Monday. Enjoy every moment- dogs do that so well don’t they?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poppy's living an enviable life with her very caring human. Will have all my fingers crossed for Monday's results. Peggy will be crossing her toes, too.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm glad she had a good day? hoping for good results Monday.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I am happy for you that Poppy is again bouncy and feeling much better. I know how difficult this sort of thing can be. When Iris was quite elderly we determined that her liver was not functioning well. One thing the vet recommended was a medication, non-prescription, called Denamarin. It is specifically for liver support and has milk thistle and other things I can't remember right now. It helped and Iris got her appetite back. I wound up getting it on Amazon rather than from the vet as it was much less expensive through Amazon. You might look it up and depending on test results, maybe discuss this with your vet. Sending good wishes to you and Poppy! Cathy and my Poppy


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Wishing for the best possible outcome. Fingers crossed !


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## pudelgirl (Mar 30, 2017)

Poppy’s days sound lovely. I’m hoping for the best scenario but if not, that she lives a good quality of life for years with medical management.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Absolutely hoping for best case scenario !


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks VQ - Poppy is getting Denamarin (SAM-e and silybin) - it is prescription only in the UK, and she was started on it immediately. The antibiotic - Claviseptin - runs out in a few days, and won't be continued. She is also taking Destolit to thin the bile, and Prednidale (steroid), plus a Vetzyme B plus E with zinc to plug the nutritional gaps in her chicken and egg porridge. The chicken treats I made yesterday are very popular, and I cooked and froze a tray of chicken chunks for medicnal purposes at the same time.

Meal times are getting complicated though - four different diets to cater for and keep track of! It used to be so simple - the meat came complete with offal and ground bone in the correct proportions, and I cooked a mix of veg, adding it to the dogs' half and some of the stock to the cats'. But seeing them happy and well fed is more than worth the effort - even worth the penetrating pong of Tilly-cat's special renal food!


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Much love to Poppy, hope good news is incoming.


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## townferret (Nov 11, 2019)

Hi, I am sorry to hear about Poppy. 
Did your vet suggest adding yogurt to her diet?

People want to believe that commercial dog food is nutritious and healthy, but it simply is convenient, and it is cooked at such a high temp that the added vitamins are pretty much
all that remains of nutrition. I do keep kibble in the house, like I keep potato chips- it is snack food.

To maintain a healthy digestive system you do not need to feed your dog from a can or a bag. If parasites are not present, see if Poppy will take a spoonful of organic greek yogurt. 
Noodle loves it and has it everyday.
Another boon to a sturdy digestive system is squash and sweet potatoes. Some people feed canned pumpkin but it is also cooked at very high temps, so I do fresh. 
Dog food is cooked at an extremely high temp, the nutrition from commercial dog foods comes basically from the added vitamins. For that you can start her on a multi.

I roast squash, I cut it in half- clean out the seeds, place it face down on a baking tray (no oil) and bake it at 350 degrees until the skin is coming off.
I save bones and make bone broth, which smells real awful but is beloved by my dogs. I use a crock pot and you basically cook everything out of the bones for several days, the bones become soft
and you strain them out leaving behind a mineral dense broth that your dog will love. Some dogs are sensitive to carrots, mine is- so I cut them up and saute them in flaxseed oil (which has the same benefits as fish oil without the smell). I offer white rice, oatmeal- with broth and squash daily. 

But the main focus on a dogs diet is protein. I started my poodle on raw meaty bones very young, she eats lamb necks, turkey necks, chicken backs, any non weight bearing bones. This helps her digestion by creating enzymes in her saliva for digestion and it cleans her teeth. It can be messy, and I feed them in their kennel on a towel that I can remove before disinfecting the kennel. You also need to wash their face and hands just like your kids.

But basically I cook her meat, and I cut it up, remove excess fat. She can basically eat any protein we do, so for dinner she has what we have minus the seasoning. 
Tumeric is very good for dogs and good for health, so is coconut oil. 
I am fortunate to have a supermarket that marks down meat regularly and I fill my freezer. The thing is, commercial dog food is expensive and it is convenient but it isn't
really much different than feeding your human children cereal for every meal. It is time consuming to cook natural food for a dog and when you have multiple dogs it gets even more so, but if you start doing it, (and remember the multi vitamin), your dog will have a varied diet and healthy stool, her teeth will be cleaner and you will have a very easy time cleaning up your yard. 

I try to keep her food cost at under $1 per LB, and I specifically shop for organic or Perdue regular. 
We have a local farm that offers a lot of veal and lamb- those bones are marrow dense and soft. Chicken livers I have found are a favorite but you must use sparingly.
Chicken hearts as well. Go lightly on the offal- no more than 10% of her overall diet. The packet you find inside a chicken is a very healthy treat.
Make sure to cut up gizzards. Raw pork necks are nice though there is a portion of the bone that is left over. I throw that in her bone broth.

She generally starts her day with yogurt, oatmeal, squash or potato, and ends it with bone broth, rice, and protein. I leave kibble in her dish, and occassionally
I will hear her grab a mouthful, and even more rarely, she may clean that bowl.

I will keep Poppy in my thoughts, I hope you try the yogurt and the squash- even if it is just for right now. I'm sure your vet will agree.

Best Wishes


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks TF - I have been cooking for all my animals for many years, basing their diet on 80% muscle, 10% offal, 10% ground bone, with varied vegetables and eggs and oily fish occasionally, but therapeutic diets take a little more care. Poppy needs low fat, reasonably high low-purine protein, rather more zinc, B vitamins and vitamin E than usual, and controlled copper, vitamin A and D (so no liver). The renal diet for Tilly is pretty straight-forward (low phosphate, medium protein) but she decided she didn't much like the home cooked version, or most of the commercial ones I tried - eventually I found one she will eat if it is served in small, frequent portions, and we are sticking with it for now. So now I am cooking three different recipes, and serving various foods to four animals up to 5 times a day, plus assorted medicines, treats, supplements...


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Townferret it sounds like you have a very lucky dog!

FJM, Poppy is in my prayers for sure.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks TF - I have been cooking for all my animals for many years, basing their diet on 80% muscle, 10% offal, 10% ground bone, with varied vegetables and eggs and oily fish occasionally, but therapeutic diets take a little more care. Poppy needs low fat, reasonably high low-purine protein, rather more zinc, B vitamins and vitamin E than usual, and controlled copper, vitamin A and D (so no liver). The renal diet for Tilly is pretty straight-forward (low phosphate, medium protein) but she decided she didn't much like the home cooked version, or most of the commercial ones I tried - eventually I found one she will eat if it is served in small, frequent portions, and we are sticking with it for now. So now I am cooking three different recipes, and serving various foods to four animals up to 5 times a day, plus assorted medicines, treats, supplements...


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## townferret (Nov 11, 2019)

oh I am the lucky one- trust me. <3


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## aussiebushgirl (Jan 14, 2020)

Mufar42 said:


> Sorry Poppy isn't quite herself yet The only thing I can share is what went with my cairn terrier and I think I have already. We have determined she has IBS and part of her intestine wall has thickened. She cannot tolerate anything other than soft food which includes softening her kibble. The only treat she can tolerate is instincts toppers, she only gets about 2-3 a day. I hope you find what works for Poppy. I'd probably do as your doing and just keep her on a bland diet for another 5-7 days while her digestive tract continues to heal. Maybe just boiled chicken & rice?


My Lagotto has just been diagnosed with something similar - a thickened intestinal wall. This has caused severe inflammation in this region, and he is now on a course of steroids to encourage him to be hungry enough to want to eat (without fear of vomiting), and the food in turn is encouraging him to drink more liquids (he is a notoriously bad drinker!). The vet also recommended Royal Canin HypoAllergenic to help with the inflammation. I substitute this with wet Kiwi Kitchens or Ziwi Peak for a more natural diet - not being a fan of commercial dry kibble, particularly vet prescribed diets. Yes, it costs us a fortune including this into his meal plan, but I know that my boy is getting more nourishment than a commercial kibble can provide. He had lost an enormous amount of weight for a medium size dog, so to see him happily eat his food again with no problems, fills me with happiness. Heather


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Now updating on: Poppy liver failure - goodish news


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## Lisa3104 (May 29, 2020)

fjm said:


> Poppy was recovering well from her bout of bloody diarrhoea and vomiting 10 days ago, but since finishing the metrodinazole at the weekend she has started vomiting a few hours after meals, and is obviously uncomfortable and not herself. I have been feeding her Royal Canin gastro sensitivity, which she loved and which rapidly stopped the diarrhoea and got her back to Perfect Poos (including one yesterday morning), but after 48 hours of throwing up most meals she decided she didn't want to eat it, although she was very keen to have something else. I added a tiny bit of cooked chicken to a small spoonful of RC, and she ate it all. Part of me thinks it might be better to starve her, but current advice is that the digestive system recovers more quickly if it is kept gently working with frequent small, bland meals. She is getting a Zitac dose every day to reduce acid, is drinking well, and has not lost any weight. It does not hurt her to rub her tummy, but she is showing signs of nausea and discomfort.
> 
> My vet thinks it will settle down as her digestive system recovers - the metrodinazole has a calming effect as well as being an AB, which may explain why she was so much more comfortable while taking it. If she doesn't pick up be tomorrow I will make a vet appointment. My anxieties immediately jump to worst case scenarios - cancer? Addisons? Has anyone else experienced this sort of thing? She has had minor gastric upsets before, and is prone to acid tummy, but never anything like this.


I’m so sorry to hear about Poppy. There are so many things that can cause vomiting. I’ve always taken in rescue dogs, and have had three types of digestive issues.The first was a chihuahua puppy that had an AV shunt, in which the food from the stomache bypasses the liver for detoxification. There is a surgery for this but chihuahua s don’t do well they have a high fatality. Larger dogs do well. The alternative was to put her on a low protein diet and check her liver enzymes periodically or when she was symptomatic and this worked well.another puppy, a Doberman pinscher, had pancreatic enzyme insufficiency and we used a product called NUPRO GOLD. It has vitamins as well as digestive enzymes and can be added to the food dry or mixed with warm water to make a gravy. It’s inexpensive $45 for a 5 lb container and the amount given depends on the dogs wt. he had bloody diarrhea and vomiting and this stopped it immediately. The third dog, Martini the standard poodle, I just adopted last month. She came to me on Hills digestive care which is prescription food.I went through her medical records from 2 previous owners and saw she was tested for everything under the sun. She had been given anti emetics,acid blockers. Ther was no diagnosis however. The foster said she both previous homes she was stressed by small children or other dogs. After consulting with my vet I weened her off the hills diet and started American journey with NUPRO GOLD. I also had to deworm her for hook worms. She loves the NUPRO and she has gained 3 lbs and looks great and has no further vomiting or diarrhea. I love this product and gave it to my healthy dogs as well. I hope this helps. I hope Poppy gets better soon. 💕


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