# Red Flag -- Not allowed to visit breeding facilities?



## AKRaven (Aug 17, 2020)

Hello all, my family and I are looking to buy a standard poodle (our first of the breed) and I have contacted some breeders. One of them has positive reviews and lots of experience, does genetic testing and gives a health guarantee, however, when I asked to visit the facility to see the pups and/or the parents, I was told this is not allowed. I was also told that I was not allowed to pick out our own pup and that the breeder would do the matching based on the temperament displayed in the pup's first 8 weeks. 

How common is it not to be able to visit the facility, and for the breeder to pick the pup? Is this normal, or is this a red flag? I have not purchased a purebred dog in about 20 years so things may have changed from then, when we went to the breeder's home and saw the parents and picked out our own pup.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Not picking your own pup is relatively normal, not seeing the facilities AND not choosing your own is not... this would be a red flag for me. 

I would also be looking for the other screenings, not just genetic (hip xrays, etc). 

There is a great pinned post in the Breeder directory that Rose n Poos created that may be a good starting point.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Another possible red flag would be the good reviews. Unless you mean on Poodle Forum or similar?

There's sure to be some exceptions, but I've never seen Yelp reviews, etc. for any breeder I'd consider.


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## AKRaven (Aug 17, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Another possible red flag would be the good reviews. Unless you mean on Poodle Forum or similar?
> 
> There's sure to be some exceptions, but I've never seen Yelp reviews, etc. for any breeder I'd consider.


Thanks for responding! Yes, I do mean good reviews or otherwise positive words about them on Poodle Forum.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

That seems odd then. I can't imagine any Poodle Forum members recommending a breeder that won't allow you to visit. Is it perhaps due to covid?

I'd absolutely want to see where the puppies are being raised and meet the dam (and, if possible, the sire, too). This can be done outside with proper social distancing.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Agree with FWOP and Peggy. It's particularly concerning that they are not allowing a prospective buyer to meet the dam (and sire, if the sire is on-site) or inspect the facilities.

As for recs here on PF, take them with a grain of salt. Breeders change MO, and we have had, erm, _lively_ discussions between members, some of whom recommended and defended terrible breeders. I know there's a breeder that I have publicly denounced here on PF, who has also been recommended by other members here. Look to the totality of what's been said, and if in doubt, ask away (as you're doing!).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Very good point from Liz.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

Breeders have to be careful about introducing disease to unvaccinated puppies. Usually they don't want visitors when the pups are very small.

I've been allowed to choose between two pups sometimes.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Could the prohibition of a visit be due to Covid? If this is the case I think it’s an appropriate decision by the breeder. However I would expect to be able to come near the house and to see the dogs from a safe social distance.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I would understand them not wanting people visiting when the pups are young and vulnerable, or possibly because of covid. But I would think they would find a safe way for you to at least meet the dam (and possibly sire) when you pick up the puppy. I actually consider it a good thing if the breeder pairs based on temperament.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

It's a standard puppy mill play to not allow buyers to meet the parents or see the facilities. Sometimes the breeder will even set up a visit, just to call the buyer a day or so in advance because "something" has come up, and arrange to meet the buyer at a different location. It happened to friends of mine and I didn't have the heart to tell them that their "wonderful" breeder was really an Amish puppy mill....


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## AKRaven (Aug 17, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> I would understand them not wanting people visiting when the pups are young and vulnerable, or possibly because of covid. But I would think they would find a safe way for you to at least meet the dam (and possibly sire) when you pick up the puppy. I actually consider it a good thing if the breeder pairs based on temperament.


When I asked the breeder, they said it's because of covid, and having unvaccinated pups at home. Seems reasonable. But at some point I'd like to see the facilities, meet the dam (at least) and see the puppies and how they interact with the mother or with each other.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

AKRaven said:


> When I asked the breeder, they said it's because of covid, and having unvaccinated pups at home. Seems reasonable. But at some point I'd like to see the facilities, meet the dam (at least) and see the puppies and how they interact with the mother or with each other.


I'd ask if it's possible to see them when the pups are older. The facilities might not be possible, but you should be able to see the pups and mom together. That should be possible outdoors I would think. I think my dog's breeder also minimizes visitors before the pups are older. But I was able to meet both parents when I picked him up. It was a 12 hour drive for me so I wasn't able to visit earlier anyway. She can always send you some videos of where the pups are living etc.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Agree with Raindrops. It's rare for dogs to get covid. Cats yes, but not dogs. You're not bringing a dog with you, so the lack of vaccinations shouldn't matter.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

It is called biosecurity and even if they are not bringing a dog with them there is no telling what they can bring in. Many if not most breeders these days limit access to their homes when they have young puppies due to the high risk of parvo. Also if they have a dog it has germs they can carry in that the puppies may not have immunity to, not saying their dog is or could be sick but we all know what happens when you move from one area to another and have a whole nother set of "well germs" to get used to... 
Also be aware that more and more breeders are limiting access to their homes or even addresses due to safety concerns for themselves and their dogs. There have been some horror stories of breeders killed, breeders having break-ins and puppies stolen etc after allowing a "puppy buyer" into their homes.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

Perhaps your breeder might provide videos of mom and pups?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I understand why you'd not want to bring names into this, but in those PF mentions, did anyone talk about the process of choosing their pup or visiting the breeder, picking up their pup? Are the posts older or more current? That gives something of a timeline. If they allowed visits in the past but not currently, that could mean disease prevention or safety issues as mentioned. Even so, as already mentioned, personal opinions and experiences can vary.

If you have an address, I've had luck a couple of times finding the breeder's home and grounds on Google Maps using Street View. You could try that. I know this sounds a bit stalkery but if their address is listed on their website or FB then it's just using tools available.

Have you checked OFA for listings of their dogs testing under the kennel name or registered name? If there are listings do any of the names match names of their public sites, if any? I mean there to verify that their current breeding dogs are up to date on testing. This is another tool, but isn't always as successful as one might hope.

If you have a dogs registry name, you can do a web search on that name to see if anythig else comes up. Or if you have the breeder's name, (not the kennel name) try a web search on that. 

There was another instance where a breeder had placed some video's publicly which featured some of their puppies. I'd have to say that those videos didn't come off in their favor so far as the puppies behavior was concerned.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the UK reputable breeders stopped visits during the height of Covid - rules have now relaxed a little, but anyone vulnerable or in contact with someone vulnerable will still be taking precautions, avoiding close contact. And when I have visited pups in the past biosecurity has always been an issue - shoes and coats left outside and careful use of hand gel have usually been sufficient, but some breeders simply ban all visits while the pups are vulnerable, after a bad experience or two. In normal times not allowing visits would be a red flag; the way things are at the moment I would be happy to rely on recent recommendations from puppy buyers just before lockdown. I would still expect to see Mum and pups together when I isited to collect, though.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I had Tonka groomed at Cantope the other day, Stopped to talk to Diane while I was there. I sprayed my shoes with Quat and sanitized my hands before I even knocked on her door. She knows I'm well trained so had no problem with my visit. 

Peter was out back, holding a Rally Class... going over some paperwork with dog owners while their dogs ran free in the field. When I stepped thru the gate I was mobbed, wading thru a pack of a dozen+ Poodles that were rushing to greet me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Countryboy said:


> ...wading thru a pack of a dozen+ Poodles that were rushing to greet me.


That sounds like heaven!!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

There's no way I'd purchase a pup at a breeder's home where the breeder refused to let me see me see the dam and how the dam and pup interact. Liz hit on the reason here:



Liz said:


> It's a standard puppy mill play to not allow buyers to meet the parents or see the facilities... It happened to friends of mine and I didn't have the heart to tell them that their "wonderful" breeder was really an Amish puppy mill....


Next...



spindledreams said:


> It is called *biosecurity* and even if they are not bringing a dog with them there is no telling what they can bring in. Many if not most breeders these days limit access to their homes when they have young puppies due to the high risk of parvo...


Biosecurity is real. In pre-covid times, a careful breeder would have a visitor use hand sanitizer before handling pups or petting the mother. A super-cautious breeder would also ask them to remove their shoes at the door. 

Due to covid now, perhaps a breeder could allow a meeting in their yard using social distancing? If I were a breeder with many concerns about parvo too, I'd hand a visitor two trash bags and rubberbands to enclose their shoes. Mask, sanitizer, trashbags, oh my! Lol. 😂




spindledreams said:


> Also be aware that more and more breeders are limiting access to their homes or even addresses *due to safety concerns for themselves and their dogs*. There have been some horror stories of breeders killed, breeders having break-ins and puppies stolen etc after allowing a "puppy buyer" into their homes.


Crime is a real concern in many areas. A breeder is so vulnerable allowing the general public into her home, in some areas far more than others. My own breeder lives in a nice neighborhood, but there is crime in nearby areas. She has a very high wooden fence with a double-locked gate to get into the front yard, and passerby cannot see into her backyard b/c that's fenced too. She has an attached office to her house where she'll bring out the parents and litter. Most of the people she sells to by word of mouth, otherwise she takes her time getting to know you over the phone. 


Some breeders are rigid about picking a puppy for buyers, others let the buyer choose by their number on a wait list, some are very flexible. Personally I prefer when a puppy in a litter picks me.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

I can only say what I do. I match the puppy to the forever family by my conversations with the potiential new family, my observations of the puppies as they mature, and from the puppy questionnaire. I allow people to visit prior to the puppies being whelped. Now during Covid, I will meet with the people on my outside deck, being the mother and possibly the father if I have him as well on the deck to meet the prospective family. I wait till the puppies are at least 4 weeks old to invite people to visit puppies. They must take off their shoes, wash their hands in a soap solution that is 50% bleach. They must be willing to get on the floor with the puppies and play with them while they are in the whelping box, allowing the puppy to decide when it is appropriate to be touched. Normally the puppies are all over the people instantly! After the puppy is comfortable with the new person, they may then pick them up to hold them. I stress not to fall in love with any particular puppy during the meetings since I do not have any idea where the puppies will be going until they are 8 weeks old.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

When I visited my potential breeder I definitely wanted to visit the mother, and was lucky enough to even meet the grandparents and see them all interact with the puppy and with me. Meeting the pups mother at another potential breeder helped me decide definitely not to take one of their pups.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

My breeder says on the website no visits until the litter is 6 weeks, which I think is reasonable. I am really hoping to visit before the mating actually happens. I would really like to meet the potential mother and get to know how she is when she is not preoccupied with little puppies and certainly don't want to cause any stress while she is pregnant. 

However, that is going to be difficult because of COVID-19 but that is due to restrictions on my end and not hesitation from the breeder. The breeder is happy for me to come and meet the adults. 

In these weird times I am however ok with not being let into the house and would definately accept meeting out in the garden instead on the condition that meet all the dogs on the property. That is because I want to see consistency, I don't want to see only one good stud-dog. I also want to see that all dogs are in good conditions, not just the potential parents. 

I know of a breeder that ran into trouble last spring. They had a litter planned for ages, the mating happens way before the pandemic hits. They were one of those groups who needed to self-isolate but unfortunately had puppies on the ground at the same time the first wave was going over Europe in full force. They had to find ways to deal with not only the puppy buyers but also the DNA check by the kennel club and the routine vet visits. If that would happen to me, that either the breeder or I needed to self-isolate then I would try and see if we could have a video call instead. I would prefere that over a video as it shows the real time conditions. 

But I would not accept these alternatives if it weren't for the pandemic.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I came very close to putting a deposit down on a puppy. The breeder came recommended. At some point I discovered she intended to meet me in a parkinglot. Now how am I going to evaluate sire, dam, puppy in a parkinglot? She shared a very old news article about a dog breeder being murdered. I offered to have a background check run, wait until her husband is home, etc... I've never determined if this is extreme paranoia or if it's just a well crafted cover. 

Sorry but if I cant meet the dam (& sire if he's on premises) then it's a no deal for me. Just too much can be hidden especially nervous dogs

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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

dogsavvy said:


> ... I discovered she intended to meet me in a parking lot. Now how am I going to evaluate sire, dam, puppy in a parking lot? She shared a very old news article about a dog breeder being murdered. I offered to have a background check run, wait until her husband is home, etc... I've never determined if this is extreme paranoia or if it's just a well crafted cover.


I like your phrase, _"a well crafted cover"_. Most recommenders breeders live in a house with a yard, so I'd wonder and ask why couldn't we meet and I see the pup and parent(s) there? Buyers could even stay in their car and watch, or stand on the other side of her fence or property line and observed. Like you, I would have passed on that too. I like @Curfloofan's and other thoughts of a seeing a live video call too followed up with meeting in the garden/yard. 

One thing I hope this pandemic changes is that more breeders will offer live videos *before* a buyer puts down a deposit, instead of just photos, with weekly followup video calls until the buyer arrives to finalize the purchase. This would make the waiting easier, and considering the cost of poodle pups, not unreasonable.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Breeder: Ever since my girlfriend was brutally murdered this past year when someone came to meet a poodle she was adopting out I have quit allowing people to come to my home. I only meet in public places from that time on.
So if this is a problem I understand. 

Me: As I’ve been searching the internet to find a nearby breeder in addition to *_*, I did run across that terrible tragedy, so I can understand your reluctance.
We’d be happy to meet you first at a local law enforcement station. I’m sure you can also understand why we believe it very important to meet any poo we’d adopt in their own environment first, whenever possible.

Breeder: I have helped the KBI with things concerning *____*'s death and they also think it is safer to not allow people to come to our home. 
I have new rules since then and I have to stick to them for the safety of my family and my fur kids. 


While I considered that her reasons were possible, not considering a (to me anyhow) reasonable alternative solution cemented my feeling of Run Rose Run!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I just searched and found that 2016 story. It's extremely sad and upsetting. I can see where any breeder knew her and lived in the area would be rattled or traumatized about having visitors in their home, especially if they are by themselves when a buyer comes.

Thanks to technology now, after reading that, I think if I were a breeder I'd insist on: 

1) a cyber meeting with potential buyers, which would be good to see if their home and if applicable, their yard, was fit for a dog, 
2) a copy of their driver's license, and 
3) a payment by check or credit card for only $5 (as an application fee) which would be additional proof that they are who they say they are, which would be refundable if not approved or I had a bad vibe;
4) maybe do a police clearance or at least an Internet search of court records, and a credit check isn't a bad idea either.

And I like Rose's idea of meeting someone with pup and dam in a police station parking lot, although if everything else was reassuring, meeting outside my home with a family member present would be okay. 

It's a darn shame that crime has come to this. RIP, Ms. Heimer. 😢 I pray they find the monstrous men who did this.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The Wall Street Journal just ran a piece about puppy scams. Someone will lift a picture of dogs off the Internet, post a well crafted sales pitch, and then disappear after getting the cash. I guess the amount of fraud has spiked with the quarantine puppy phenomenon.

It is a difficult situation for both breeders and buyers. I would be a hoarder if I got into breeding. I can't imagine letting a puppy I bred go off to some stranger, never to be seen again. My next puppy will come from a friend of Pogo and Snarky's breeder; she is still working with some of the same bloodlines. I don't expect to be able to visit her ahead of time due to the current situation with travel to Canada. However, at least I know she is a real person, and I have some history on the dogs.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

The really sad fact is that thousands of puppies are sold every year. The buyer & sellers rarely "know" one another. Do you take precautions... absolutely. But at some point you have to decide to live or choose life in lockdown mode. I am a violent crime survivor so I do understand the concern however I refused early on to be controlled or defined by a monster. If the breeder isn't hiding the truth... she could hire an off duty police officer or retired military person. Paper proof only goes so far. Been in a good number of legitimate breeders' homes. Lot of breeders know about that murder yet I met the sires, dams, litter mates, etc... & bought pups. If this is truly just fear paralyzing her, I hope she finds a way to feel safe because think of the quality of buyers willing to buy off of nothing more that pictures & her say so? Think of the pups going into those homes, if it's a home at all

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