# Breeder Question



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

It's not necessarily a red flag. Who is the breeder? You might get some input based on their website/people's experiences.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

It is not terribly unusual to only title some of the breeding dogs. Titling is very expensive and a good breeder can identify quality structure and temperament without titling every single dog. But titling a good number of their dogs shows that they are in fact making good breeding choices.

I would not say that four litters is a red flag. It depends on the age of the dog and how that particular dog does with pregnancy, whelping, and puppy care. It's also not necessarily an issue to have multiple litters sired by the same male.

I would say to evaluate their breeding choices holistically. Are they pairing dogs based on particular goals, or do they seem to be breeding only to produce puppies to sell? Do they regularly hold back puppies to keep in their program? Are they producing more litters than they can raise with proper socialization?


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## standardpoodle2022 (11 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> It's not necessarily a red flag. Who is the breeder? You might get some input based on their website/people's experiences.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

standardpoodle2022 said:


> The breeder is Rosebud Standard Poodles. I've read good things online but that doesn't necessarily mean everything.


Based on the website, they would pass my first impression round and move on to the contacting round.


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## standardpoodle2022 (11 mo ago)

Raindrops said:


> It is not terribly unusual to only title some of the breeding dogs. Titling is very expensive and a good breeder can identify quality structure and temperament without titling every single dog. But titling a good number of their dogs shows that they are in fact making good breeding choices.
> 
> I would not say that four litters is a red flag. It depends on the age of the dog and how that particular dog does with pregnancy, whelping, and puppy care. It's also not necessarily an issue to have multiple litters sired by the same male.
> 
> I would say to evaluate their breeding choices holistically. Are they pairing dogs based on particular goals, or do they seem to be breeding only to produce puppies to sell? Do they regularly hold back puppies to keep in their program? Are they producing more litters than they can raise with proper socialization?


The female is four years old and will be her fourth litter. The female will possibly be bred for a fifth time. That seems like a lot of litters for a four year old? I've seen a lot of other breeders say that they only breed a female a max of 3 times.


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## standardpoodle2022 (11 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Based on the website, they would pass my first impression round and move on to the contacting round.


Thank you. The sire is on the website but the female that is being bred is not. My concern is that she is only four years old and has already been bred four times. Possibly will be bred for a fifth time. Based on other breeders breeding a max of 3 times, and only breeding their female once per year (skipping a heat cycle to allow recovery), breeding a four yr old female four times already seemed like a red flag to me. But I could be wrong?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

standardpoodle2022 said:


> Thank you. The sire is on the website but the female that is being bred is not. My concern is that she is only four years old and has already been bred four times. Possibly will be bred for a fifth time. Based on other breeders breeding a max of 3 times, and only breeding their female once per year (skipping a heat cycle to allow recovery), breeding a four yr old female four times already seemed like a red flag to me. But I could be wrong?


I used to hear the 3-time breeding rule before I got into poodles, but I've since found that's not accurate in some of the top show breeders. I've also learned that back-to-back breedings with a rest after the second breeding cycle actually lessens the risk of mammary cancer in the bitch. She can be spayed and retired earlier that way. However, I think your concerns are very valid, and perhaps you would feel more comfortable with a smaller, more occasional breeder.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Older thread here but this is several members, including some of our well-thought-of breeders, discussing age and frequency for breeding their females:

Frequency of Breeding a Bitch


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I haven't been on their website, but, UMMMM, if the bitch is only 4 and has already been bred 4 times and had 4 litters, then that is a HUGE red flag. If all appropriate health testing has been done to CHIC requirements (and you should ask for the CHIC# for both the dam and sire of the litter), she would have had to be, at the very least 2, to have had hips certified (assuming OFA). So even if she was a bit over 2 when she came into heat after passing all testing for a CHIC# (besides hips she should have had eyes, cardiac and other tests recommended for Standards by PCA completed before breeding, log into their website for complete testing by variety) that would mean she had been bred every heat for 4 times in a row (assuming she comes into heat every 6 months). While breeding a bitch back to back is recommended in current thinking, breeding a bitch back to back to back 4 times in a row to whelp litters is NOT. And considering breeding a 5th litter on a 4-year-old bitch is puppy mill territory, no way to defend. If that is their mindset, I'm sure they would have no issues continuing to breed the crap out of her as long as she is fertile. As far as titling... Responsible breeders title their dogs before breeding. Title to breed championships in conformation or to upper-level titles in performance. AND many in both. It is NOT "terribly unusual to only title some of the breeding dogs" as another poster responded. All of my pups have come from breeders that did spend the time and $$ to title ALL of their breeding dogs (bitches and studs) and to make sure ALL of the studs they bred their bitches to, if they outcrossed and did not use one of their own studs, were titled.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Eclipse said:


> if the bitch is only 4 and has already been bred 4 times and had 4 litters, then that is a HUGE red flag.





Eclipse said:


> that would mean she had been bred every heat for 4 times in a row (assuming she comes into heat every 6 months). While breeding a bitch back to back is recommended in current thinking, breeding a bitch back to back to back 4 times in a row to whelp litters is NOT.


Posted by the OP right in front of me two times and still it didn't register until you pointed it out.
This is either a miscommunication or, as you say, a HUGE red flag.



standardpoodle2022 said:


> My concern is that she is only four years old and has already been bred four times.





standardpoodle2022 said:


> The female is four years old and will be her fourth litter.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Rose n Poos said:


> Posted by the OP right in front of me two times and still it didn't register until you pointed it out.
> This is either a miscommunication or, as you say, a HUGE red flag.


Yes, and if they didn't wait until she was 2 to do all the health testing and started breeding her on her first or 2nd heat, that is even worse.....


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