# Is 8 weeks too early for toy poodle?



## justyoupoodle (Nov 17, 2015)

I read through a couple threads and it seems like a lot of people agree that 10 - 12 weeks old is the best time for a toy poodle to come home to their new owner. If a breeder lets their toy poodles go at 8 weeks old, is that too early? Does the extra 2 - 4 weeks with their mother and litter mates make a huge difference or is there anything I can do to help socialize the puppy so that it doesn't miss out on any crucial development stages?


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

justyoupoodle said:


> I read through a couple threads and it seems like a lot of people agree that 10 - 12 weeks old is the best time for a toy poodle to come home to their new owner. If a breeder lets their toy poodles go at 8 weeks old, is that too early? Does the extra 2 - 4 weeks with their mother and litter mates make a huge difference or is there anything I can do to help socialize the puppy so that it doesn't miss out on any crucial development stages?


Justyourpoodle, I don't let my standard poodles puppies go to new homes until 9-10 weeks old, let me give you a couple reasons why I do that. I first decided to do that after reading about fear stages, and realized there was a fear stage at eight weeks old, if puppies have a bad experience going home it could scar them possibly for life, when pups have these experiences with their littermates they can recover faster and just handle situations better, not all pups have the fear factor at the same time, and they seem to comfort each other. I then started reading about Dr Dodds vaccine protocol, which states pups should not be vaccinated until they are nine weeks, no matter what I suggested to new puppy owners, half did not listen and ran their pup right to the vet for their first vaccine, does a week matter, in my experience it does. It seems like such a short time for us but in puppy time it is about four months. If you have already purchased a puppy that is going to be released at the younger age you should be very careful with the pup for the first couple weeks, do not run them all over to visit family or meet everyone's pet. Realize it will be hard for the puppy to control it's bodily functions, it is like a newborn baby, their body needs to time to be able to control their bladder and bowels. Do some research on vaccines and dog psychology a great book is "The Breeder's Guide To Raising Superstar Dogs", you are not a breeder, or maybe not even want a superstar, but it helps you see the different stages your puppy will go through and how to handle them. Good luck.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My Toy breeder says that most of her puppies nurse until they are about 11 weeks old, my Timi nursed until close to 13 weeks. If you get a puppy at 8 weeks old, then that means that they were probably forced to wean around 5-6 weeks old. And we certainly know from human studies that the longer an infant nurses, the healthier and more intelligent they become, so I think it can only be good to allow the puppies to have more time to nurse.
And just from reading around Facebook and other places, it seems to me that the puppies who get critically sick and wind up hospitalized with thousands of dollars in medical bills, or worse, soon after they go home are always the ones who left the breeder at 8 weeks old, every single time.
The absolute earliest my breeder will let them go is 12 weeks, and I have never heard of a single one of her puppies getting sick in their new homes, they all make out perfectly!
Personally, I think that for a Toy even 10 weeks old is pushing your luck - maybe if it is a really knowledgeable and caring breeder, and they feel certain that the puppy is solid, but I would not feel confident in a breeder who did that routinely.
And a breeder who routinely places a puppy at 8 weeks - I think that is a huge red flag, and screams greeder who just wants to be shed of the responsibility, get their money, and move the merchandise while it is at it's most appealing, tiny and adorable. I have seen many of such breeders trick people into thinking that they were getting much smaller dogs than they actually were that way, and even the most ill-bred with terrible conformation pups will look adorable at that age. 
I would not touch such a breeder with a ten foot pole!
I have had 7 Toy Poodle puppies in my lifetime, all coming home between 13-16 weeks old, and they all were wonderful. You really know what you are getting by that age in terms of size, looks, and personality, and they arrived healthy and ready to learn, all of mine being housebroken in less than a week.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't think it's alarmingly early. I find 8 weeks pretty standard. It's not my preference ... I would prefer 12 weeks. But some do prefer 8 weeks.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I guess it could be different for toys.... I see a lot of puppies go home at 8 weeks. Just what I've noticed to be the most common age while I was looking for puppies


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Naira said:


> I guess it could be different for toys.... I see a lot of puppies go home at 8 weeks. Just what I've noticed to be the most common age while I was looking for puppies



It is very different for toys, they mature at a much slower rate than Standards. An 8 week old Toy, would be comparable to maybe a 5 week old Standard. An 8 week old Spoo is comparable to a 12-13 week old Toy. Reputable Toy Breeders of any toy breed do not let them go until a minimum of 12 weeks, for the extra small ones, they may not allow them to go until 16 weeks. This is the norm for Toys. 
Timi was under 2 pounds when she came home at close to 14 weeks. How much did Naira weigh at 8 weeks? Probably more than Timi weighs full grown I would bet!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

That makes sense ^


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## justyoupoodle (Nov 17, 2015)

I haven't purchased a puppy yet, but I did speak to a breeder. She seems really nice and helpful, has been breeding tpoos for a while and shows her dogs, but she says she lets her puppies go home at 8 weeks old. Thanks to the long hours spent reading through the threads on this forum, the idea of sending them home at 8 weeks made me feel a little uneasy, but I wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive or if you think this would be a deal-breaker for you.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Zoe came to us at nine weeks and she was 2.6 lbs.
Don't know the standard time for toys to come home.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think size matters here and would generally say that for standards to come home at 8 weeks is just fine, but that for toys later is probably better.

As to developmental fear periods, there is a lot of myth there and I would not delay bringing home a puppy of a large breed over belief in a fear period. The study on which the belief in developmental fear periods is based used only a very small number of puppies and was done under laboratory conditions. I think I have a reference for it somewhere, but can't find it right now (I will try to find it later). Ian Dunbar often has spoken and written about not giving much credence to that study. Javelin's breeder lets her pups leave after they have had one night with her post first immunizations. Her feeling for spoos is that since the litters are often large and their social needs become difficult for one or two people to meet it is better that they go to their forever homes just after 8 weeks.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

justyoupoodle said:


> I haven't purchased a puppy yet, but I did speak to a breeder. She seems really nice and helpful, has been breeding tpoos for a while and shows her dogs, but she says she lets her puppies go home at 8 weeks old. Thanks to the long hours spent reading through the threads on this forum, the idea of sending them home at 8 weeks made me feel a little uneasy, but I wasn't sure if I was being too sensitive or if you think this would be a deal-breaker for you.



There certainly are people who get away with bringing home an 8 week old puppy, and everything works out fine.
But if you are asking how can I maximize my chances of bringing home a well adjusted puppy who is healthy and I don't have to rush to the emergency vet two days after it comes home, 100 percent the answer is find a breeder who keeps them until they are at least 12 weeks old.
And as an added bonus you will have a much better idea of the temperament, size, and looks of the puppy, they will have 1-2 vaccinations under their belt, and they will be at an age where they are much more capable of training and housebreaking, so you can start them on the right course from day one!
Actually I have already warned my breeder that the very earliest I will take the next one is 16 weeks, and between us, even then I will be in no rush as in my recent experience, the older Timi got, the easier she was to train and live with. If I could talk my breeder into keeping my next one until 6-7 months, I would be thrilled with that!
So yes, 8 weeks would be a total deal breaker for me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I think size matters here and would generally say that for standards to come home at 8 weeks is just fine, but that for toys later is probably better.
> 
> As to developmental fear periods, there is a lot of myth there and I would not delay bringing home a puppy of a large breed over belief in a fear period. The study on which the belief in developmental fear periods is based used only a very small number of puppies and was done under laboratory conditions. I think I have a reference for it somewhere, but can't find it right now (I will try to find it later). Ian Dunbar often has spoken and written about not giving much credence to that study. Javelin's breeder lets her pups leave after they have had one night with her post first immunizations. Her feeling for spoos is that since the litters are often large and their social needs become difficult for one or two people to meet it is better that they go to their forever homes just after 8 weeks.



I wonder if those studies even included the small Toys? Since their physical development is much slower than the big guys, it would not be surprising if their brain and psychological development was also slower.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

justyoupoodle said:


> I read through a couple threads and it seems like a lot of people agree that 10 - 12 weeks old is the best time for a toy poodle to come home to their new owner. If a breeder lets their toy poodles go at 8 weeks old, is that too early? Does the extra 2 - 4 weeks with their mother and litter mates make a huge difference or is there anything I can do to help socialize the puppy so that it doesn't miss out on any crucial development stages?



The breeder should keep the puppy for at least another 2 to 3 weeks, and I'm not understanding why she's letting the puppy go so early. During the first 10 to 12 weeks, it's crucial for the puppy to stay with its mother and siblings to help socialize it as much as possible before going to its forever home. Some people are saying to wait even longer, but personally, I think 10 to 12 weeks is fine. 

Please, if at all possible, talk the breeder into keep your baby for a little while longer. It really should stay with its mama.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

The American Maltese Association Code of Ethics states that breeders must not let puppies go before 12 weeks of age--so I would think there would be similar reasons to not release Tpoo puppies earlier than that. I personally wouldn't bring one home before 12 weeks. They need their moms for milk and littermates/mom for learning social skills.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I wonder if those studies even included the small Toys? Since their physical development is much slower than the big guys, it would not be surprising if their brain and psychological development was also slower.



The study didn't use poodles at all to my knowledge. It also only used about five puppies at each of several ages. To the best of my recollection they were in a research facility and judged to be fearful or not based on their willingness to approach people they didn't know. This is a myth that ranks up there with aluminum pans causing Alzheimer's and the measles vaccine causing autism as far as I am concerned. It wasn't good science when the study was done yet belief in its findings, however flawed, has played a huge role in the socialization and training, or lack thereof, of millions of dogs.

Tiny when a litter is small as tpoo litters are it is much more realistic for the breeder to be able to get the puppies seem and handled by lots of people. Imagine a breeder trying to take Javelin and his eight siblings for a walk on a down town street at nine weeks vs. a tpoo breeder with two puppies each being carried or in a puppy stroller.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Misha's breeder was letting her go home at 9 weeks, but she was a bit leery as she normally keeps them for 10, but with Christmas coming and the recommendation she received for me from my groomer and the fact that my daughter was a vet tech and lived here, she felt comfortable. Then we drove out to get her and while there we all realized we had miscalculated and she was only 8 weeks old. Breeder let me have her anyway. Misha did absolutely fine. Super easily potty trained almost immediately. Maybe because I had two older dogs here to show her the ropes. But she and we never looked back. She had stopped nursing at 6 weeks.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think there is a one answer fits all in something like this. As with anything, there are variables, sometimes a lot of variables. 

In my case, I got my Toy Poodles at 8 weeks. My highly regarded breeder offered to keep them another couple weeks and said he'd be happy to. He said it was up to me. They were weaned naturally at 5 weeks, as many puppies are. I think they started eating some kind of Pablum stuff and then puppy food. They were eating canned and kibble on their own like pigs well before I got them. 

Although one was very small in stature, he was as healthy as a horse, robust for his size. These puppies were vet checked and given the A.O.K. prior. I brought them back to the breeders at the recommended time to get another set of vaccines. My breeder lives 20 minutes away from me and was available should anything untoward arise. He knew my history...that I've had dogs for 55 years and raised a litter. I also have a medical back ground and tend to be fairly good at noticing things that might indicate illness. My dogs, unlike a _very_ rare few had zero indication of failure to thrive or any other weakness at all. They were playful, exuberant, and physically and emotionally healthy. 

I have a BIG, HUGE_ thing_ about _early_ socialization. Being a trainer/behavior consultant, I've seen too much sadness in dogs and their owners when they are under socialized. I am obsessed with socializing my puppies the right way, the way _I_ want them socialized, the things that in my life style, they need to be socialized to. I do not want a dog that doesn't like to be handled by other people or sociable with_ friendly_ strangers. They don't have to fall all over themselves, but I want a confident, at least somewhat outgoing dog that isn't afraid of anything much and one that develops excellent "bounce back" should something startle or spook them. 

Since the critical, early socialization window closes at around 12 weeks, there is no way I'd want a puppy to stay with a breeder longer than about 10 weeks and then, ONLY if the breeder is providing_ ample _socialization to the puppies, while taking into account reasonable precautions regarding puppy diseases. A lot of breeders wouldn't have time to do an adequate (to my way of thinking) job if they've got more than a litter or two I would think.

If a puppy is not strong enough, not eating on it's own, showing signs of any weakness physically or mentally at 8 weeks, I would not get that puppy at all. Period. 

I got my Chihuahuas years ago at 10 weeks. They were also healthy and fine, eating on their own, weaned naturally at around 5 weeks. She just liked to keep them a little longer. It all worked out fine. So 8 weeks or 10 weeks...that seems fine to me as long as they're healthy and thriving well. And as long as you have common sense to care for a tiny puppy and have support if needed from your breeder and vet. 

When socializing a young puppy, they must be protected from situations that cause them fear. It must be pleasant and associated further with good things such as tasty treats. The more pro-active a puppy is socialized, the better...as opposed to passive socialization...where things just happen or they don't. Pro-active means that you design a program, a schedule and you set up the scenarios and increase the good feelings about the things you're introducing your pup to by pairing them with high value treats. You're increasing the odds of a more confident dog, taking into account their natural temperament too, of course. It takes both...a good slate to start with and good husbandry.

Anyhow, if you're nervous about getting a pup at 8 weeks, wait for 10. Simple as that. But I wouldn't wait much longer than that _personally_...unless I got an adult that I knew had the kind of socialization history and temperament, training etc I want in a dog. If the dog isn't eating well on his own or shows any weakness in temperament or health by the time they're 8 weeks, I would not get that pup. I like them pretty young, as you can tell. They're little sponges and get a real leg up on learning just like little humans. My puppies are now are two and a half years old already. Time flies. They're well adjusted, confident, smart and responsive, healthy little dogs. I'm so pleased with how they both turned out. Good luck to you.

Oh, another variable I just remembered...I had 2 other dogs at home when I brought my puppies home. So they had good dog-dog lessons from the older ones. They got over that puppy land shark biting within a VERY short time....a week or two as I recall.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled, I lost a reply I was typing, but you explained in much more detail what I wanted to say. My now oversized boy came home at 9 weeks. I trusted my breeder to know what was right for her pups. Beau came well socialized loving all humans and canines. He will be 11 in a few days. If you have a good breeder, you have a real treasure. I don't think all puppies need to stay with their litter for any specific number of weeks. One size does not fit all.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> The study didn't use poodles at all to my knowledge. It also only used about five puppies at each of several ages. To the best of my recollection they were in a research facility and judged to be fearful or not based on their willingness to approach people they didn't know. This is a myth that ranks up there with aluminum pans causing Alzheimer's and the measles vaccine causing autism as far as I am concerned. It wasn't good science when the study was done yet belief in its findings, however flawed, has played a huge role in the socialization and training, or lack thereof, of millions of dogs.
> 
> Tiny when a litter is small as tpoo litters are it is much more realistic for the breeder to be able to get the puppies seem and handled by lots of people. Imagine a breeder trying to take Javelin and his eight siblings for a walk on a down town street at nine weeks vs. a tpoo breeder with two puppies each being carried or in a puppy stroller.



Well I don't know how her breeder did it, but Timi came to me bombproof with perfect temperament on day 1, so that's good enough for me. Honestly if I were getting a bigger dog and had to get it younger I would be scared - what if I messed up on the socialization that first month and the developed into totally the wrong dog for me. I would much rather get them when they are almost fully cooked, know what I mean?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Misha's breeder was letting her go home at 9 weeks, but she was a bit leery as she normally keeps them for 10, but with Christmas coming and the recommendation she received for me from my groomer and the fact that my daughter was a vet tech and lived here, she felt comfortable. Then we drove out to get her and while there we all realized we had miscalculated and she was only 8 weeks old. Breeder let me have her anyway. Misha did absolutely fine. Super easily potty trained almost immediately. Maybe because I had two older dogs here to show her the ropes. But she and we never looked back. She had stopped nursing at 6 weeks.



And this what I mean, sometimes you get lucky and it goes just perfectly with an 8 week old - you couldn't get better than Misha. But I think that you would agree that in general terms if a breeder and a buyer want to improve the odds of a good outcome, a month older is much better.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

As I stated earlier I do not know anything about the appropriate time to bring a tpoo home, not trying to propose anything, just tell my experience.

Bringing our dog home at almost nine weeks had zero negative outcome.
As most on PF know she came from a horrible breeder. Time with breeder never factored in. Zoe thrived from day one at our home. She has a beautiful temperament as well. Maybe what Poodlebuguiled was saying has a lot of truth. Socializing young is key to temperament not just inborn.

Having a million kids in and out of house definitely helped Zoe immensely . She was handled by all ages from the start. I do not know if we got lucky or it was her early socialization that made her a sweet loving dog.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well you know whatever works for an individual is the right answer.
But I did want to emphasize again that every single time that I see somebody crying about a puppy almost (or actually) dying a couple of days after coming home from the breeder, and if they save it incurring thousands of dollars in Vet bills, it is always, always an 8 week old puppy. Of course that does not happen every time, but I don't get why when one is selecting a breeder they would select one that is going to give you a puppy when it is higher risk.
As many of you here who "held my hand" through it know, Timi was one of those puppies - she went down, and came very close to dying when she was 9-10 weeks old. But fortunately for all of us, she was still with her breeder when it happened and her breeder saw her through it to perfect health. Who knows what would have happened if she had already been with me - even if I was on point in catching it quickly, at the average price for hospitalization being a thousand dollars a day around here, it would have easily been 7-10 thousand dollars to save her life. And if they had not been able to save her - imagine the heartbreak and the financial hit combined.
I am glad that it worked out well for those of you who got their puppies young and had no issues. But since it just happened that I would have been one of the unfortunate ones, I feel very grateful to have a breeder who keeps that responsibility where it belongs and protected me from having to go through it.


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## justyoupoodle (Nov 17, 2015)

Thanks Poodlebeguiled for all the information about early socialization!!! When I asked the breeder regarding whether she thinks 8 weeks would be too early, she too mentioned the early critical socialization period and that it's important for the puppy to bond with their human families at 8 - 12 weeks old. 

The breeder emphasizes how important it is to start early socialization with a new puppy, but then says that puppies should stay at home until they've gotten all their shots. My last dog passed away already, so there's no dogs at home to help the puppy learn. She said it's best not to invite other dogs over either even if they are up to date with their shots because you never know where they have been or if they've stepped on something contaminated with diseases. Of course, health is really important to me, but how does one go about ensuring their puppy is well socialized but only within my own home? 

After reading everyone's input, it does seem like 12 weeks is the most ideal, especially since I don't have much experience and it's been forever since we've had a puppy in the house. I was going to ask the breeder if she would be open to the idea of keeping the puppy for a few more weeks, but she did mention that they start weaning at 4 - 5 weeks and by 7 - 8 weeks old the mother stays away from her puppies anyways. Then if all her litter mates leave at 8 weeks old, seems like she won't get the benefits of staying longer. I guess the best option now might be to move on and keep searching for the right breeder.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh you know I should add that when I asked my breeder why I always hear others say that their dogs wean puppies at 5-6 weeks while she says hers do it more like 11 weeks, she said something to the effect "not every dog was meant to be a mother, when that happens you spay them and move on", so I think that her dogs have probably been selected for strong nurturing tendencies for many generations.
Timi had definitely been nursing until soon before I got her at almost 14 weeks because she was constantly trying to suck on my earlobes for weeks after she came home. Her poor mama - those shark puppy teeth are not pleasant when they suck!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

mom2Zoe said:


> As I stated earlier I do not know anything about the appropriate time to bring a tpoo home, not trying to propose anything, just tell my experience.
> 
> Bringing our dog home at almost nine weeks had zero negative outcome.
> As most on PF know she came from a horrible breeder. Time with breeder never factored in. Zoe thrived from day one at our home. She has a beautiful temperament as well. Maybe what Poodlebuguiled was saying has a lot of truth. Socializing young is key to temperament not just inborn.
> ...



I think also that it's because of the era that we live today. People are making it a bigger deal now days saying that pups need to stay with their mother and siblings longer. Whereas 30 or 40 years ago, I don't think people would have thought anything of it, when a puppy went to its home at 8 or 9 weeks. Back then, when pups were eating really well on their own, and were romping and playing, that was when they went to their forever home. Now, people are saying that "good breeders" won't let their pups go until at least 10 weeks.

Personally, I have to agree that 8 weeks is still a little young. But if you had asked me 8 or 9 years ago, I would have said that 8 weeks was just right.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Willow came home around the 10-11 week mark. The breeder would not let her go until 10 weeks, at the earliest. I have to say, it is easier with an older puppy. My previous came at 6 weeks... Too young and a lot of work. (She was in a rescue type situation). 

Willow was perfectly ready to become a member of our household. She was ready to learn and easy to train.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

justyoupoodle said:


> Thanks Poodlebeguiled for all the information about early socialization!!! When I asked the breeder regarding whether she thinks 8 weeks would be too early, she too mentioned the early critical socialization period and that it's important for the puppy to bond with their human families at 8 - 12 weeks old.
> 
> The breeder emphasizes how important it is to start early socialization with a new puppy, but then says that puppies should stay at home until they've gotten all their shots. My last dog passed away already, so there's no dogs at home to help the puppy learn. She said it's best not to invite other dogs over either even if they are up to date with their shots because you never know where they have been or if they've stepped on something contaminated with diseases. Of course, health is really important to me, but how does one go about ensuring their puppy is well socialized but only within my own home?
> 
> After reading everyone's input, it does seem like 12 weeks is the most ideal, especially since I don't have much experience and it's been forever since we've had a puppy in the house. I was going to ask the breeder if she would be open to the idea of keeping the puppy for a few more weeks, but she did mention that they start weaning at 4 - 5 weeks and by 7 - 8 weeks old the mother stays away from her puppies anyways. Then if all her litter mates leave at 8 weeks old, seems like she won't get the benefits of staying longer. I guess the best option now might be to move on and keep searching for the right breeder.


If you wait until all three of the series of vaccinations are complete to take your puppy out into the world, he will miss critical opportunities to be positively affected by the outside world. I keep my puppies at home until after their 2nd shot and invite people in, neighbor kids to play in the yard with them, healthy neighbor dogs that I know are gentle and tolerant to visit. After the 2nd shot I take my puppies to stores, outside of those big box stores we watch the big, electric doors open and watch people with noisy shopping carts...not too close if the puppy is afraid but enough to get some kind of exposure. We go for walks up the road a little bit and visit with people along the way. I do not take my puppies to dog parks or pet stores where a lot of unknown dogs frequent yet...not until after the 3rd set of shots. But I try to balance reasonable caution with getting out and about. I also ask vets if there have been any parvo outbreaks in the area. I do not carry my dogs everywhere they go as I want them to feel the ground surface and see things that they'll see later on from their own level and their own perspective. 

I highly recommend you getting the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson before getting your puppy. It is full of good information on everything you need to get a good start with your puppy. There are other good books too that concentrate on puppies. You can do a search on this forum....maybe in the training section. There is a list somewhere of all kinds of book recommendations. 

I recommend reading this to get started. By the time your puppy is 12 weeks old, he should have certain socialization tasks under his belt. 

Puppy Training | Ahimsa Dog Blog

As far as weaning goes...Usually the mother starts the weaning process at around 3 or 4 weeks of age...when they are getting their teeth. The teeth, when nursing hurts the mother and she'll begin move away from them for longer and longer periods of time. In the wild and even with pets, the mother regurgitates food and the puppies start eating this digested material. By about 6 weeks most puppies are eating solid food. The sooner pups are weaned, the less wear and tear on the mother and the sooner her body gets back to her former, normal condition. And by the time the pups are 7 or 8 weeks old, they are completely weaned and on solid food. The mother's job is done pretty much. So by the time the puppies are ready to be adopted at a common age of 8 or 10 weeks, they're very ready for their new human family to go on with lessons for life. That is...unless they're unhealthy or weak...something wrong with the puppy.

I think it's great that you're researching prior to getting a puppy. Good luck.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well you know whatever works for an individual is the right answer.
> But I did want to emphasize again that every single time that I see somebody crying about a puppy almost (or actually) dying a couple of days after coming home from the breeder, and if they save it incurring thousands of dollars in Vet bills, it is always, always an 8 week old puppy. Of course that does not happen every time, but I don't get why when one is selecting a breeder they would select one that is going to give you a puppy when it is higher risk.
> As many of you here who "held my hand" through it know, Timi was one of those puppies - she went down, and came very close to dying when she was 9-10 weeks old. But fortunately for all of us, she was still with her breeder when it happened and her breeder saw her through it to perfect health. Who knows what would have happened if she had already been with me - even if I was on point in catching it quickly, at the average price for hospitalization being a thousand dollars a day around here, it would have easily been 7-10 thousand dollars to save her life. And if they had not been able to save her - imagine the heartbreak and the financial hit combined.
> I am glad that it worked out well for those of you who got their puppies young and had no issues. But since it just happened that I would have been one of the unfortunate ones, I feel very grateful to have a breeder who keeps that responsibility where it belongs and protected me from having to go through it.



Oh, and since there don't seem to be any current PFers with toys that went down as puppies here to speak about it, I wanted to mention that the same thing happened to my Tangee when she was with her breeder - it happens so commonly, that her breeder did not even mention it until the day before I got her, she told me, "by the way you will notice that one of her arms was shaved from when she went hypoglycemic, and we had to rush her to the vet. We keep telling them, don't shave the arm, just wet it with rubbing alcohol and you can find the vein without shaving them, but they don't listen". 
I got Tangee at 16 weeks, and she was just fine by the time I got her, never had any issues until old age.
So you see, it really is not an uncommon thing amongst tiny toy puppies - it is better that their breeder see them through it, no reason to take the risk of it happening in their new home.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I've been stumbling across a lot of material from Dr. Ian Dunbar lately about early socialization as well, particularly how harmful it can be to let fear of parvo keep you from socializing a young puppy with humans (rather than continuing with appropriate precautions). This blog post he wrote is a pretty good overall summary of his ideas, I think: Why Don't We Adequately Socialize Young Puppies with People?

You should also check out his books, BEFORE You Get Your Puppy and AFTER You Get Your Puppy, which you can find for free here: https://www.siriuspup.com/resources (I have them combined in one book that I bought called Before & After Getting Your Puppy, but it's all the same material as the PDFs at that link).

EDIT: I've also heard him say a few times that leaving a puppy with the breeder for longer is only good if the breeder is actually committed to doing a lot of socialization during that time period, so that's definitely something you'll want to ask any breeder about. Ask them specifically what they do to socialize the puppies, how many different kinds of people they'll meet, etc. Dr. Dunbar has said that every puppy should meet at least 100 people (especially children and men) before they're 12 weeks old. I don't know if you really need to hit that target exactly, but it's good to ask what kind of exposure a puppy will get to the world if it stays with its litter for the entire first 12 weeks.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hypoglycemia, as mentioned by tp, is the one thing i would worry most about in toy puppies. for the rest, i think if there is sufficient devotion (and time allotted by a human mom or dad), ian dunbar's approach makes sense to me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> hypoglycemia, as mentioned by tp, is the one thing i would worry most about in toy puppies. for the rest, i think if there is sufficient devotion (and time allotted by a human mom or dad), ian dunbar's approach makes sense to me.



This is about Toy Poodles, so hypoglycemia is a very important consideration.
At 8 weeks old my breeder moves her puppies into her groom room, and she encourages everyone from clients to the UPS Man to play with them every day so I am quite sure that they surpass the100 person quota.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl, I have been to a number of seminars with the good Dr. Dunbar and have written extensively about his views on early socialization at PF, here among other places: http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/100970-ian-dunbar-seminar-workshop.html It is hard to argue with his credentials supporting his POV. He is a veteriarian and has a PhD in psychology based on his studies of dog behavior.

While I certainly recognize that there are special issues with tiny tpoo pups for larger puppies letting pups leave earlier is the more likely way to get the pups to have the social exposures they will need to be good steady dogs. A situation at a breeder as described by Tiny Poodles where tpoo pups meet many people who come through the kennel would be a good idea for any breeder who keeps pups longer.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

In fact when Timi arrived the "kennel boy" had already taught her to sit and shake hands to say hello - it was their daily ritual?


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

patk said:


> hypoglycemia, as mentioned by tp, is the one thing i would worry most about in toy puppies. for the rest, i think if there is sufficient devotion (and time allotted by a human mom or dad), ian dunbar's approach makes sense to me.


True, my breeder gave me a packet to read and there was a lot of info about hypoglycemia in it. It is a toy puppy issue.


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

I brought my girls home around 10 weeks.
Sylvia & the girls!


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## ranniew (Sep 17, 2015)

I spoke to a few breeders and all of them release puppies at 8 weeks (I'm in Ontario). Although I think they are willing to push it back for 2 weeks if you ask them! Mia was supposed to come home at 8 weeks, but we asked the breeder to keep her a little longer and brought her home at 10 weeks instead. She was a singleton puppy, so we wanted to make sure she had more time to socialize with other puppies at the breeder's place.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

hopetocurl said:


> True, my breeder gave me a packet to read and there was a lot of info about hypoglycemia in it. It is a toy puppy issue.



Hypoglycemia happens when the blood sugar drops too low, as you know. That happens when the dog doesn't eat. It is more common in puppies but it can happen in any tiny dog, any age. It happens in other mammals, including adult humans, as I'm sure you know. If I don't eat for too many hours, I get shaky, weak and get a head ache and I don't even have a clinical or diagnosed blood sugar problem. And I'm no spring pup. lol. 

When I got one of my Chihuahuas, she was 7 months old. Not 7 weeks...7 whole months. Several months later...I think she was close to a year old she stayed with my niece for a few days while I was gone. Chulita fluctuated between about 5 and 6 lbs...the max they should be in the standard. She stressed that I was gone and refused to eat. If my niece would have been able to reach me, I could have told her to give her Nutrical or find something to force feed her with...all they need is a tiny bit. Or sugar on the inside of the cheek for a quick fix. I should have provided some information to her to prevent something but didn't think of it because she typically didn't stress about things like me being gone. As it was, she became hypoglycemic, started shaking and getting weak. My niece rushed her to the vet and all was made well again. But it can happen to an adult dog too. It turns out at other times when she didn't eat or didn't eat well, scrambled eggs she couldn't turn down, so that would have probably worked in that situation. 

If an 8 week old puppy has been eating well for a few weeks already...on solid food, is healthy, passes muster by a vet and/or the very experienced breeder who is very familiar with raising puppies, they are fine to go home at 8 weeks, just as long as the owner is aware and watchful, as one must be all a pet's life. They can be hurt or get sick at any age. A support system in place is beneficial too. 



> I spoke to a few breeders and all of them release puppies at 8 weeks (I'm in Ontario). Although I think they are willing to push it back for 2 weeks if you ask them! Mia was supposed to come home at 8 weeks, but we asked the breeder to keep her a little longer and brought her home at 10 weeks instead. She was a singleton puppy, so we wanted to make sure she had more time to socialize with other puppies at the breeder's place.


Ranniew, I also spoke with many breeders with good reputations and credentials in my search and most said they could let them go between 8 and 10 weeks, depending on how they're doing. You were wise, I think, to let Mia stay with some other puppies for another couple weeks.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Hypoglycemia happens when the blood sugar drops too low, as you know. That happens when the dog doesn't eat. It is more common in puppies but it can happen in any tiny dog, any age. It happens in other mammals, including adult humans, as I'm sure you know. If I don't eat for too many hours, I get shaky, weak and get a head ache and I don't even have a clinical or diagnosed blood sugar problem. And I'm no spring pup. lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If anyone's interested, here a couple things on fading puppy syndrome.

Early Death in Puppies | petMD



> Fading Syndrome (Neonatal Mortality) in Puppies
> 
> Newborn puppies are born with an immature immune system that needs to be built up over time, starting with their mother's milk. Because of their immature body organs and systems, puppies are prone to various insults, including infections and environmental, nutritional, and metabolic factors. Also, young animals do not yet have strong body temperature regulation, and their body temperature can fluctuate profoundly in response to changing environmental temperatures and humidity. Glucose control may also be poor, and blood glucose levels may fall below normal ranges in cases of nutritional disturbances, leading to a state of hypoglycemia. Neonatal mortality, or fading syndrome, involves the death of puppies from birth to two weeks of age. This syndrome is more common in pedigree puppies.
> 
> ...


Another article...quite in depth. This fading puppy syndrome will become apparent very early on...between birth and 2 weeks of age. 

Fading Puppy Syndrome - Clinical Signs and Causes | VCA Animal Hospitals


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Hypoglycemia happens when the blood sugar drops too low, as you know. That happens when the dog doesn't eat. It is more common in puppies but it can happen in any tiny dog, any age. It happens in other mammals, including adult humans, as I'm sure you know. If I don't eat for too many hours, I get shaky, weak and get a head ache and I don't even have a clinical or diagnosed blood sugar problem. And I'm no spring pup. lol.
> 
> When I got one of my Chihuahuas, she was 7 months old. Not 7 weeks...7 whole months. A few months later...I think she was close to a year old she stayed with my niece for a few days while I was gone. She stressed that I was gone and refused to eat. If my niece would have been able to reach me, I could have told her to give her Nutrical or find something to force feed her with...all they need is a tiny bit. Or sugar on the inside of the cheek for a quick fix. I should have provided some information to her to prevent something but didn't think of it because she typically didn't stress about things like me being gone. As it was, she became hypoglycemic, started shaking and getting weak. My niece rushed her to the vet and all was made well again. But it can happen to an adult dog too. It turns out at other times when she didn't eat or didn't eat well, scrambled eggs she couldn't turn down, so that would have probably worked in that situation.
> 
> ...





Tiny Poodles said:


> Yeah, completely wrong. Doesn't even understand what actual hypoglycemia in a puppy presents as.....


I'm not sure I understand your comment, TP... what Poodlebeguiled posted was very clearly how actual hypoglycemia presents in a puppy (or a person)... Were you commenting on someone else's description?

Barb Plum
Moderator


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Justyoupoodle, here's something on hypoglycemia...different stages of severity, signs, symptoms, what to do etc. It's good that anyone with a toy breed _especially_, would understand about this very scary situation that can arise at any time. For instance, my novice raw diet eaters have been so enthralled with their food...totally enjoying every meal, more than ever. Well, this morning Maurice didn't touch his ground beef. (first time for beef) So, I have that in mind. He'll probably eat dinner and a treat or two in the after noon, so I'm not too worried...yet. But if he doesn't eat dinner, I'll begin my cater routine. lol. How about this Maurice? Or this? I won't let him skip dinner too. And he's two and half...not a puppy. But he's only a little over 4 lbs. I sure wouldn't want one_ any_ smaller than he. If he's off his feed at dinner time, I'll be trying to figure out if it's anything else besides just not liking beef. So that's what I do when I have little dogs or any dogs...observe, keep things in mind but don't panic right off. Some days they just don't feel like eating one time...kind of like us, I guess and maybe nothing is wrong. 

Signs of Hypoglycemia - The Teacup & Tiny Puppy Care Guide


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## ranniew (Sep 17, 2015)

I'm just reading the earlier posts and do want to add that I don't think 8 weeks is a deal breaker or anything. For a smaller puppy or ones with special needs then certainly it would be the best to wait another week or two, but if the puppy is healthy and otherwise fine, I don't see anything wrong with going home at 8 weeks (but definitely not any earlier).

Someone mentioned about all the puppies dying a few days after going home being 8 weeks old ones. I do want to clarify that those are likely from pet stores or backyard breeders who do not provide proper sanitary conditions for puppies to grow in AND who probably starved puppies to make them look smaller than they actually are! And these byb will almost ALWAYS get their puppies out at or before 8 weeks. However, I would make a very clear distinction of these byb from good registered breeders who decide that their puppies are ready at 8 weeks to join their new family. I have not heard of any stories with good breeder's puppy going home at 8 weeks and getting sick or dying!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

ranniew said:


> I'm just reading the earlier posts and do want to add that I don't think 8 weeks is a deal breaker or anything. For a smaller puppy or ones with special needs then certainly it would be the best to wait another week or two, but if the puppy is healthy and otherwise fine, I don't see anything wrong with going home at 8 weeks (but definitely not any earlier).
> 
> 
> 
> Someone mentioned about all the puppies dying a few days after going home being 8 weeks old ones. I do want to clarify that those are likely from pet stores or backyard breeders who do not provide proper sanitary conditions for puppies to grow in AND who probably starved puppies to make them look smaller than they actually are! And these byb will almost ALWAYS get their puppies out at or before 8 weeks. However, I would make a very clear distinction of these byb from good registered breeders who decide that their puppies are ready at 8 weeks to join their new family. I have not heard of any stories with good breeder's puppy going home at 8 weeks and getting sick or dying!



Well, I would agree with you that all of those puppies came from bad breeders, but I define any breeder of toy dogs who sends their puppies home at 8 weeks to be a bad breeder. As somebodÿ noted earlier in the thread, so would the American Maltese Dog association, whose code of ethics requires that a puppy be at least 12 weeks old before being placed - it isn't just me who feels that way!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Justyoupoodle, here's something on hypoglycemia...different stages of severity, signs, symptoms, what to do etc. It's good that anyone with a toy breed _especially_, would understand about this very scary situation that can arise at any time. For instance, my novice raw diet eaters have been so enthralled with their food...totally enjoying every meal, more than ever. Well, this morning Maurice didn't touch his ground beef. (first time for beef) So, I have that in mind. He'll probably eat dinner and a treat or two in the after noon, so I'm not too worried...yet. But if he doesn't eat dinner, I'll begin my cater routine. lol. How about this Maurice? Or this? I won't let him skip dinner too. And he's two and half...not a puppy. But he's only a little over 4 lbs. I sure wouldn't want one_ any_ smaller than he. If he's off his feed at dinner time, I'll be trying to figure out if it's anything else besides just not liking beef. So that's what I do when I have little dogs or any dogs...observe, keep things in mind but don't panic right off. Some days they just don't feel like eating one time...kind of like us, I guess and maybe nothing is wrong.
> 
> Signs of Hypoglycemia - The Teacup & Tiny Puppy Care Guide



Wonderful article on hypoglycemia. A lot of great information in there that is beneficial to everyone. 
Thanks for sharing that Poodlebeguiled.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Swizzle came home at 12 weeks. My breeder made sure I knew all about hypoglycemia. For a toy I think 8 weeks is young. things can go South fast when they are so tiny.


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