# Toy Poodle puppy food recommendation



## rekha (Jul 10, 2020)

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum. I have a 10 weeks old puppy and weights 1.5lb , can you guys recommend any food brand please. My puppy's eyes watering a lot, Vet suggested to wait till its 6 months old any suggestions please.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome! 

Your post has raised a lot of questions for me:

Did your vet suggest that the food was responsible for the watery eyes? 
I'm sorry but I'm not sure also what you mean by "Vet suggested to wait til it's 6 months old"? 
What does the vet think you need to wait til it's 6 months for? 
If it's not because of the watery eyes, Why do you want to change food? 
What are you feeding your puppy now?

What's your puppy's name?


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I really wouldn't mess around with changing diet at 10 weeks old, at least not because of watery eyes. Its not totally unusually for a young puppy to have some discharge from their eyes and many grow out of it which is why I assume your vet said wait till 6 months. Not seeing the pup and not knowing and history makes it difficult to assume anything. I'd go with the advise of my vet and also ask the breeder if its something she notices with pups and if they outgrown it.


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## rekha (Jul 10, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome!
> 
> Your post has raised a lot of questions for me:
> 
> ...


Thank you for response!

My puppy's name is Bruno

The Vet suggested 3 food brands which are sold in Petsmart store: Royal canine,Purina and Hills.
She said not to purchase food from Costco or Sams club as they don't update the nutritional values as required and don't follow the food recalls.
For puppy treats she recommended frozen peas.

My puppy is tearing lot, its super wet and I'm cleaning with wipes every day. 
The Vet said tearing is common in poodles. As we will be neutering the puppy when he turns 6 month old, 
the vet will check if their is any blockage for the tears from the eyes to drain through nose.
I can't see my dog tearing so much. I requested for some medication and the vet suggested Angle's eyes to add in food. I just don't want to wait 3 more months.

kindly suggest me with the food and any over the counter medicine for the tears to stop.


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## rekha (Jul 10, 2020)

Mufar42 said:


> I really wouldn't mess around with changing diet at 10 weeks old, at least not because of watery eyes. Its not totally unusually for a young puppy to have some discharge from their eyes and many grow out of it which is why I assume your vet said wait till 6 months. Not seeing the pup and not knowing and history makes it difficult to assume anything. I'd go with the advise of my vet and also ask the breeder if its something she notices with pups and if they outgrown it.


Thanks for your response!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There isn't a specific food that will stop tearing. It's possibly a reaction to something in the food, a bit of an allergy. The tearing is quite common and may be a nuisance but it's generally not harmful, and they do sometimes grow out of it. It's much more noticeable on light colored dogs. 

Honestly, if he's eating the current food he's on happily, I wouldn't change it just because of the tearing, not yet anyhow. I'd wait to see if the tearing diminishes as he grows. My girls were always tearstained and they lived quite happily til they were almost 16y old.










If you switch foods to try different protein sources, be sure to transition slowly, over a weeks time, or you and Bruno risk digestive upset. My recommendation if you feel the need to change foods is to pick a company which has a veterinary nutritionist formulating the foods. The Purina Pro Plan brand gets mentioned on PF regularly as an option. I switched my mini boys, now adults, to that brand and my boys love it and have had no issues on it. 


Off your original topic, but I'm very surprised to hear of a vet still recommending a spay/neuter at 6m. That used to be the norm but current science suggests to wait til each variety, toy, mini, or standard reaches their physical maturity before having the procedure. 
The reason is that losing the hormones too early, and 6 months is too early for any size, affects bone growth, certain endocrine conditions, and cancer risks. 

This is just one brief paper from many studies:

The Practice of Spaying and Neutering Poodles: Possible Joint Disorders, Cancers and Addison’s Disease Differences Between the Standard, Miniature and Toy Poodles

A Study Conducted at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine Study Leader: Benjamin Hart, DVM, PhD Partially Funded with a Grant from Versatility in Poodles For personal use, not for publication. This is a preliminary report.

General Study parameters Using data from the computerized veterinary hospital records of the University of California-Davis, Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, for the last 14.5 years, this study retrospectively examined the occurrence of joint disorders and cancers in males and females of the three main varieties of Poodles for those left intact and those neutered in the periods of < 6 mo., 6-11 mo., 1 year (12 to 23 mo.) and 2 to 8 years-11mo. The occurrences of Addison’s Disease, urinary incontinence and pyometra in females were also tracked through the same ages. Mammary cancer, was tracked until the dogs were about to turn 12 years of age. For all neutered dogs, records were reviewed to ensure that neutering occurred prior to the first clinical signs or diagnosis of any disease of interest.

For cases where the hospital records on referral cases did not include age at neutering, telephone calls to the referring veterinarians were made to obtain the specific neutering dates. Because there were neutered dogs where age at neutering was not available, from either the record or from the referring veterinarian, and these cases could not be included, there were proportionately more intact cases in the final dataset than would be expected in general.

Patients diagnosed with hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear/rupture, or elbow dysplasia presented with clinical signs such as difficulty moving, standing up, lameness, and/or joint pain; diagnoses were confirmed based on radiographic evidence, orthopedic physical examination and/or surgical confirmation. Diagnoses of hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma and mast cell tumors were based on clinical signs such as enlarged lymph nodes, lumps on the skin or presence of masses, and confirmed based on imaging, appropriate blood cell analyses, chemical panels, histopathology and/or cytology.

Statistical procedures involved survival analysis (Cox proportional hazard models) to compare incidence rates of each disease between groups of animals defined in terms of their age at neutering. Patients were diagnosed at different ages and with varying years at risk from the effects of gonadal hormone removal. For statistical tests the two-tailed level of significance was set at p< 0.05. The numbers of cases reported for each disease varied somewhat because a case could be excluded for one disease analysis but included for another disease analysis.

*Main findings Standard Poodles*. The complete dataset totaled about 350 cases evenly split between males and females. Within each gender, 70-80 percent were neutered or spayed.

Hip dysplasia does occasionally occur in gonadally intact males and females (up to 2-3 percent). There is a modest, non-significant increase in this joint disorder in males neutered at < 6 mo. No other joint disorder increased with early spaying or neutering however, which is a contrast to our published work on Labs, Goldens and German Shepherds (doi’s: Long-Term Health Effects of Neutering Dogs: Comparison of Labrador Retrievers with Golden Retrievers and onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/vms3.34/full)

A cancer of concern is lymphoma, which was not diagnosed in either male or female intact dogs but was diagnosed in about a quarter of males neutered during the first year: a significant finding (p < 0.01). There was a modest trend for females spayed before one year to have the cancer (non-significant).

Addison’s Disease did not occur in any intact males or females, but females are at risk for this disease when spayed before 6 mo., where over 10 percent were diagnosed with this disease: a significant occurrence (p< 0.02). Males neutered before 1 year seem to have about half the risk of females for this disease (nonsignificant).

*Bottom line: for males, consider delaying neutering until they reach the age of two to avoid the increased risk of lymphoma, hip dysplasia and Addison’s Disease. For females, delaying spaying females until they are at least a year old seems to avoid increasing the risk of Addison’s Disease, and waiting until 2 years avoids the possible increased risk of lymphoma. Delaying spaying does not appear to increase the risk of mammary cancer, and even leaving a female intact raises the risk to only 4 percent.

Miniature Poodle.* The complete dataset for Miniature Poodles totaled about 240 cases with a few more females than males, and 70-80 percent of each gender being neutered or spayed.

There is virtually no occurrence of joint disorders, or the cancers followed, in the dogs left intact and no indication of an increasing likelihood of these diseases with neutering or spaying at any age. Mirroring the occurrence of Addison’s Disease in early spayed Standard females, spayed Miniature females during the first year may be at a slight risk for this disease (non-significant). While leaving a female intact does not appear to increase the risk of mammary cancer, spaying in the later years may slightly increase the risk of this disease (non-significant).

*Bottom line: with the exception of a possible increase in Addison’s Disease, as mentioned above, there appear to be no important disease considerations related to spaying or neutering at any age.*


* Toy Poodle.* The complete dataset for Toy Poodles totaled about 275 cases with a few more females than males, and 60-70 percent of each gender being neutered or spayed. 

Mirroring the tendency for Lab, Golden and German Shepherd dogs neutered or spayed in the first year to acquire a cranial cruciate ligament tear or rupture, there is an indication that male Toy Poodles neutered at 6-11 mo. have an increased chance of this joint disorder (non-significant). There is no indication of the cancers followed, or Addison’s Disease, increasing in likelihood with neutering.

*Bottom line: consider spaying females at any age and neutering males beyond one year.*


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## Fwayiam (Jan 22, 2020)

I had the same problem. I had my toypoodle on Acana Small Breed Puppy. It gave her tear stains and goopy eyes. We switched her to Farmina N&D Lamb, Blueberry, and Pumpkin and she is doing sooo much better. The kibble smells nice too and looks better.


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## Mylosz (Oct 9, 2020)

When I got my puppy she was on Royal Canine (medium puppy) but then my groomer who happens to also be a poodle breeder told me to think twice about it. I mean when you read the label it really sounds horrible.And it is really overpriced just like hills and purina. Why would I give so much money for something eith such a horrible ingredients list (I mean really - corn, corn gluten, wheat, soy, rice, plant protein extracts etc.). I no longer feed kibble but when I did I fed her Farmina N&D Ancestral grain. It was cheaper and the ingredients were amazing. Quite a lot of meat and very little carbs. No cheap fillers (except beat pulp but that was fine with me) .They also never had a recall so that was never bothering me. I read that Farmina is now available in the US so you could read the reviews and see what americans think.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Too much meat is as bad as too little. Dogs, like humans, are omnivores. Personally, I have fed Purina for 60 years to a wide variety of dogs, but mostly poodles, and have been pleased with the results. Right now I am using the "sensitive skin and stomach" variety because I have a very old dog who has digestive issues. All four dogs (Labrador retriever, border collie/whippet cross, miniature poodle, and chihuahua/pomeranian cross) have done well on it. I do add about a tablespoon of canned meat (not a meat dinner product - pure meat or fish).

Purina Pro Plan does not contain wheat or corn. Here is the formula for Sensitive Skin and Stomach (lamb variety - there is also a salmon variety):
Lamb, oat meal, barley, fish meal (source of glucosamine), canola meal, rice, beef fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols, dried egg product, pea protein, dried yeast, natural flavor, fish oil, sunflower oil, chicory root inulin, salt, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, *VITAMINS *[Vitamin E supplement, niacin (Vitamin B-3), Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate (Vitamin B-5), thiamine mononitrate (Vitamin B-1), Vitamin B-12 supplement, riboflavin supplement (Vitamin B-2), pyridoxine hydrochloride (Vitamin B-6), folic acid (Vitamin B-9), menadione sodium bisulfite complex (Vitamin K), Vitamin D-3 supplement, biotin (Vitamin B-7)], *MINERALS *[zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite], choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (Vitamin C), dried Bacillus coagulans fermentation product.


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## Mylosz (Oct 9, 2020)

I honestly cannot believe the claim that dogs can eat too much meat. I mean aren't all those raw fed dogs on a pretty much 90% meat and bones diet? And does it sound normal that a dog - basically a domesticated wolf could be harmed by a diet dominated by meat/animals? Isn't the reccomendation to not overdo protein limited only to dogs with kidney problems (and even there the scientists can't agree if low protein is the way to go)? Also the NRC still hasn't determined the maximum level for protein which kinda suggests it's not that easy to overdo it.
EDIT: I don't mind purina, I just think it's overpriced.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Mylosz said:


> basically a domesticated wolf


It's true that dogs are descended from wolves but for the last 10's of thousands of years since they have lived with humans they have diverged into separate but related species. As dogs domesticated, their living conditions and diets have changed to the point of genetic changes in their GI systems. What is proper diet for wild wolves is not proper diet for domestic dogs. 

There's plenty of research from reputable sources on this out on the internet. This isn't a research paper but has some information related to the subject:








Your dog is not a wolf; stop trying to feed it like one


A strict “prey model” diet is unnecessary and doesn’t work for every dog.




therawfeedingcommunity.com





Regarding label reading, there's more to that also. Some of the dog food companies employ veterinary nutritionists to develop their formulas. This is partly why there are so many size, life stage, and sensitivities offered in the choices.

The sources are US centric but that doesn't change the scientific information.

https://vet.tufts.edu/wp-content/uploads/DecipheringFactFromFictionIngredients.pdf

*  How to Read a Dog Food Label – American Kennel Club  *
Your best tool for deciding what to feed your dog is right on the can or bag. But first, you need to know how to read a dog food label.
www.akc.org

* Dog Food Tips From Veterinarians  *
Dogs will eat anything, so it’s up to you to make sure you’re feeding them well. WebMD has what you need to know about buying and serving the best food for your four-legged friend. 
pets.webmd.com 

*Deciphering pet food labels: What you can and cannot learn from them  *
The nutritional information you can assimilate from the label on a pet food is not exactly complete and balanced. Being aware of the shortcomings of package labels will help you recognize what you can't know and figure out where else to look for facts in your quest to help owners choose the best... 
www.dvm360.com 

*  Pet Food Labels  *
The pet food label contains a wealth of information, if one knows how to read it.
www.fda.gov


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## Mylosz (Oct 9, 2020)

I have a feeling this is diverging from the topic which is about suggestions for puppy food so I will just say this : I have no problem with kibble. I just don't like the mindset that ONLY kibble can provide optimal nutrition. I know kibble formulas are made by nutritionists, and I have no doubt that it provides all the nutrients a dog needs. But kibble ingredients by themselves don't provide all the nutrients. Most are added as supplements. And that's OK. But I see no reason why that should be better that fresh food. And just because dogs became able to digest starch doesn't mean they are suddenly not meat eaters anymore. We became omnivores when we started eating meat but that doesn't mean that too much plant food can suddenly be bad for us and our diet should not be plant based anymore. Even the text you shared clearly says that dogs are meat eaters and don't need carbs but CAN eat them (just like we can eat meat but don't really need it) but the text advises against a prey model diet which is a meat/animal-ONLY diet. 
So my point would be -if you want to feed your dog kibble just go for it. And my logic just tells me that kibble with more meat is better because dogs are meat eaters. There is no reason for the majority of calories to come from starches. And that's what I liked about Farmina N&D - lots of protein and fat, and moderate carb. Plus it smelled great.
PS: Dogs and wolves are technically NOT different species. Dogs are taxonomically listed as a subspecies of wolves. They can breed and produce fertile offsprings and therefore cannot be considered different species. The very deffinition of species says that members of a single species cannot produce fertile offsprings with species other than their own.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

i started Asta on grain free Nature's recipe. When the warnings came out I wanted to give him another food. We first tried Purina formulas and it gave Asta severe constipation and then the runs. Asta was miserable. Vet recommended Hills. The Hills prescription diet is expensive but I feed the regular Hills which I do not see as expensive. I get from Chewy. Asta is doing very well on Hills - he likes it, no problem with poops, seems to have helped with his coat which has been getting more luxurious. Some people do not like Hills, but I would recommend it, especially if you have problems with Purina and other foods.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

We have members who feed raw exclusively in it's various iterations, members who home cook exclusively and members who feed primarily kibble. We also have members who feed two or more of those, or rotate them.
I think we're all interested in feeding our dogs properly, however we choose to do it and there will be nearly as many recommendations as we have poodles . 

I apologize for giving the impression that dogs and wolves are completely separate species. I should have written that they are related subspecies more currently considered diverged from a now extinct wolf.


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