# Looking for Standard in So Ca



## sonno23 (Sep 19, 2010)

We're looking for a standard pup. Black, cream, apricot, brown. Outgoing, sweet, goofy and healthy is what we're looking for. 

We're in So Cal. There aren't many litters now to choose from it seems but I hope to find some.

There is one but I can't tell from their site that isn't kept up.

Does anyone know about kayekids in San Diego? ~KayeKids~

The sire and dam aren't on their site and I've asked if she could send their info. How important is it that their dogs are registered on the poodle registry? It makes me feel confident to see it there.

Anyone know any that are available now or soon?

Thanks so much.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Is this the litter from:

Sire: Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner
Dam: Kayekids Lively Loretta


I don't see any testing listed on OFA for Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner. The dam, Kayekids Lively Loretta, only has hips listed. I would especially like to see an SA punch and a Thyroid test on the dam since she has one 1/2 sister who test SA equivocal and one 1/2 sister who tested Thyroid equivocal.

I also can't find Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner listed on either poodlepedigree or in PHR so I don't know what his pedigree looks like.


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## sonno23 (Sep 19, 2010)

*Looking for a boy*

I forgot to say we're looking for a boy.

CB, yes that's those are the parents.

I'm waiting for her to send the pedigrees and testing.

Would a 1/2 sister being SA equivocal make you stay away from a litter or only if the one of the parents hadn't been tested? Boy, I don't know how to read all this.

Thanks so much!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Sonno,
That's a really tough question and more than likely no two of us would give you the same answer.....

Regarding seeing poodles on Poodle Health Registry... ANYONE can request a poodle pedigree be added to PHR. The owner is the only one who can register a health issue for a poodle. (difference between pedigree in the pedigree database vs health issue reporting).

There is a link on the website: Add Dog


Quite honestly, there simply isn't health testing available for most of our autoimmune issues. So, even if a poodle comes from fully health tested lines, it doesn't mean that it won't eventually have some sort of health issue, but having the health testing history does put the odds more in favor with having health poodles,than not. 

Depending on what other health issues are in the pedigree, I wouldn't necessarily run from a dog with a pedigree who has a lateral relative with an SA equivocal.

Regardless of how good a pedigree/testing looks... the reason for getting a poodle is... the poodle. Not the pedigree,not the testing. They are all pieces of the total package. If you have the chance to meet the pup and parents in person... do it!



J


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

re: Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner
DOB July 4th, 2005 Black Male
AKC number: PR06691901

AKC registered littermates:

Charlie Gershman PR06691902 Black Male
Baroque Danniann PR06691904 Black Female



Charlie Gershman is on the poodle health registry. Here is a link to his pedigree (Blaize, Kaykids Baroque Barn Burner will have the same pedigree).

PHR Pedigree Database


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Blaize is on poodle pedigree: 
Pedigree: Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner

His owner has listed him as OFA dysplastic.

He is 6 years old now. If I were interested in one of his offspring, I would be wanting to see his xrays, to see him move. Does he have other offspring? How many have had hips xrayed? Any hip issues?

Were there any environmental factors that may have influenced his hip development?

What was the quality of the hip xrays?

What is his family history as far as dysplasia and hip issues and what is the family history of the bitch (also has she had offspring, any hip issues there?)


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## sonno23 (Sep 19, 2010)

*Hips*

Thanks Yadda,

I do have info about this but I don't have time right now to write about it.

Thank you for your digging on my behalf. 

In any case, I have moved on.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Blaize is on poodle pedigree:
> Pedigree: Kayekids Baroque Barn Burner
> 
> 
> ...


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## sonno23 (Sep 19, 2010)

*We're expecting!*

I wanted to let everyone know that we found a breeder. Angie Killian on Argan poodles in Dallas. Whitepoodle put me in touch w/ her.


We're very happy to have found her. I had hoped to find someone close by but that wasn't to be. I'll probably be going there for a visit though.

Thank you all for your help and support. I appreciate it so much.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Wahoo!

Congrats Sonno!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Hip Dysplasia*

I think hips are one of those benchmark issues. For the good of our breed, I don't think dysplastic dogs should be bred. Can a dysplastic dog produce decent hips? Yes, but what if they don't? Hips dysplasia is a horribly painful condition and I think breeders need to do their very best to not pass it on. 

I personally don't buy the "environmental" argument and I would be very leery of a breeder who tried to use this excuse.[/QUOTE]

For me, Having HD in a pedigree is not a deal breaker. Hip xrays are a tool and very inexact tool at that. They give us a clue, or insight as to what's going on, but there are other health risks that I would run from faster. Anytime a breeder selects for one trait, or lack of it, we are inadvertantly selecting for other traits. I prefer to look at the big picture.


The risk of producing offspring with HD is present with EVERY single breeding that is done, regardless of the parents history. OFA excellent parents can produce offspring who have HD. Having said that, you'll get absolutely agreement from me that only breeding parents with high hip scores stacks the deck in favor of offspring with high hip scores. 


I think you'll get an across the board agreement that no one wants to produce a dog with hip dysplasia. But there is so much more to breeding poodles than hip dysplasia! If HD were the only health issue standards were up against, and we all worked together, we could drastically reduce our HD in a very short time. Unfortunately, that's not even close to reality. IF we removed all poodles with HD or even fair hips from breeding programs, the genetic loss would be significant and detrimental to our already limited gene pool. Like most of our other health issues, very little is truly known about HD, what genes are involved, modes of inheritance, how much of a role environment plays (yes, according to scientists and research, environment can be a signicant factor in the development of HD, not just an excuse). 

Xrays are tremendously subjective. Xray techniques are frequently less than optimal and yes, it happens that a dog can be diagnosed as dysplastic on one set of xrays can have those xrays redone with an entirely different hip score. In fact, it's possible that the SAME xrays can be reviewed by the same reviewers and given a different result. 

Not every case of HD is debilitating or crippling, in fact, there are many poodles out there with undiagnosed hip dysplasia. One of our current top winning standard poodle agility competitors has hip dysplasia. 

Poodles have been around for a lot longer than hip xrays. With the genetic bottleneck which occurred in the 60's-70's, I wonder how many of those our poodle ancestors were xrayed? How many were dysplastic that people were unaware of. We do know that Gentry (Winshire's Country Gentleman) was dysplastic.

Then of course, we can get into different types of hip xrays.. is one kind better than another, what do they really tell us?

I think it's critical if breeder's really want to make a difference to the overall health and well being of the breed that they actively pursue and seek out the most current health information and science. That breeder's keep abreast of trends and what is happening with health science. I think that it's critical we have insight into why a breeder may have done a breeding that at first appearance seems less than optimal, rather than simply condemning that breeder out of hand.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> One of our current top winning standard poodle agility competitors has hip dysplasia.
> 
> I think that it's critical we have insight into why a breeder may have done a breeding that at first appearance seems less than optimal, rather than simply condemning that breeder out of hand.


I assumed that this was an oops litter, in part because Kaye was the one who entered the HD info in PoodlePedigree. 

Re the agility standard with HD, are you talking about MeMe? If so, she had LCP, which apparently came down from her mini side.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Actually, I forgot about MeMe. I was referring to a different standard. My only point there, however is that in many cases HD is not only not excruciatingly painful and disabling but that poodles can be affected by it and to all appearances be asymptomatic. 

I have no idea of whether or not this was an Oops! litter or a planned one. Either way, my hat's off to Debrah Kaye-Jolgren for openly disclosing the HD. 

One of the biggest reasons the "Wall of Silence" is perpetuated (the keeping of secrets regarding health issues), is because of the condemnation and outcry of others. When we see someone who is brave enough to publicly admit to an issue with a poodle, especially in the case of it's having been bred, whether or not we support the breeding, we need to be supportive and not condemn the sharer of the health information. It takes guts and high moral values to share less than optimal health information.


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## sonno23 (Sep 19, 2010)

Thanks Yadda!

It was an oops litter. It was only after much questioning about the health testing on my part that I found out about the HD.


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