# Breeder Transparency



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I wanted to start a thread about breeders in general. This is not directed at any one breeder in particular.

I just think it's such a shame that some breeders are not more transparent and open about their lines and practices. Why is it so difficult to figure out from some breeders how many dogs they have, how many litters they breed a year and what health testing they do? It suggests to me those breeders have something to hide, yet I know some reputable breeders who also are not as forthcoming with information as they could be.

In an ideal world every claim a breeder makes would be openly backed up (either on a website or in some sort of document they provide to those who inquire about their lines straight away, before there's any talk of puppies).

- Say you do full health testing? Prove it by listing every test your breeding stock has undergone, the results and link to the OFA website. To my understanding every dog that has been OFA registered is listed at the website, someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

- Say you only breed quality dogs who improve the breed and meet the standard? Prove it by providing the dog's full registered name, any titles and a 5 generation pedigree so I can do my own research.

- Say you only have occasional litters? Prove it by listing all the breeding stock you have as well as the litters you have bred in the last 3 years (this one could easily be falsified, but it would still be nice to know).

Any other ideas? What other information do you all think transparent breeders would provide without you having to ask a million and one questions?

ETA: I know there are many reputable breeders out there who easily provide this information as soon as you ask for it. I just think it would be great if this information was made more easily available to potential puppy buyers starting out their research. This is my first time starting out in a breed from scratch and separating the breeders I would be comfortable with from the ones I wouldn't has been a real challenge for me. And I know what to look for! I can only imagine what a challenge it must be for the average puppy buyer.


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

Environment and socialization areas...I think that breeders go on other breeders' websites and see "home-raised in our kitchen-born in our bedroom ( or MBR closet)-handled and played with daily,testimonies....I make sure I contact references but that is still no guarantee....it is very difficult buying over the internet....some breeders are very cunning and we have been 'burned' in the past. I also have an issue with: "we're here for support for your puppy's lifetime." Yeah, right-how many are REALLY there for you?


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I wanted to start a thread about breeders in general. This is not directed at any one breeder in particular.
> 
> I just think it's such a shame that some breeders are not more transparent and open about their lines and practices. Why is it so difficult to figure out from some breeders how many dogs they have, how many litters they breed a year and what health testing they do? It suggests to me those breeders have something to hide, yet I know some reputable breeders who also are not as forthcoming with information as they could be.
> *The simple reason...Because it's competition. You can compare it to any part of life, a game, etc.*
> ...


*Imagine what it was like before the age of the internet...*


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

mandi said:


> Environment and socialization areas...I think that breeders go on other breeders' websites and see "home-raised in our kitchen-born in our bedroom ( or MBR closet)-handled and played with daily,testimonies....I make sure I contact references but that is still no guarantee....it is very difficult buying over the internet....some breeders are very cunning and we have been 'burned' in the past. I also have an issue with: "we're here for support for your puppy's lifetime." Yeah, right-how many are REALLY there for you?


Yeah I think the environment/ socialization stuff is tough. I spoke to one breeder who had pups in the bedroom, and raised the pups in their home. Well that's technically true, but when I saw it with my own eyes, it was not at all what I was looking for.

The above is why I would never be comfortable purchasing a pup without meeting the breeder, the dogs and seeing the environment where they're raised. There's some things you can only confirm in person.

I totally agree on the support statement. I want to know exactly what support they're providing (including any monetary support that might be offered. If I spend over $1000 on a puppy from health tested lines and it develops a genetic health issue, what sort of support is the breeder offering me?)


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

If you see breeding as competition, then yes, I can see not wanting to show your hand. But if you see it as something you do due to love of a breed and to improve the breed, then I think working together and showing your hand is the only way to go!

I totally agree that some of this could perhaps be offered by the AKC/ CKC/ other breed databases. They currently make you pay for access to pedigrees - makes sense when paper versions were the only ones available, but now that things are online, it would be easy to offer it for free. PPD is great but my impression is that it's self edited, and also not every dog is listed there. As pups and litters are also registered by AKC/ CKC they could perhaps make that information available as well.

I think the Internet has both helped and hindered things. It's helped in that there's a lot of information freely available if you can sift through it all. It's hindered in that anyone can slap up a professional looking website, make lots of claims and reach a wider audience than they used to. I'm guessing a lot of potential puppy owners start by searching something like "poodle breeder", but the breeders that come to the top as a result of that search are not necessarily the ones they should go with.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Cdnjennga said:


> I'm guessing a lot of potential puppy owners start by searching something like "poodle breeder", but the breeders that come to the top as a result of that search are not necessarily the ones they should go with.


I agree too many people use google and other search engines to find breeders. The best way to start is visiting AKC/CKC shows and visiting the breed club websites.


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## Emily-By (Jul 17, 2009)

I would like to see a copy of the 'health gaurantee' as well as any contracts that would be expected to sign if I wished to adopt from them.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

I can only form an opinion on the websites I have seen online as I have never been to a scanctioned dog show or talked face to face with show breeders. 

Anyway I agree that all health testing results, pedigrees, and all dogs owned by the breeder are listed with current pictures. 

I think the reason a lot of breeders get away with subpar websites and not showing proof of testing is that buyers don't really care. I would bet more then half of the people looking for a puppy could care less about who the parents are, are they healthy and who is in the line. Most just want a companion and will do anything to get it. We are in the minority, those of us who WANT to see all those things and won't settle for just any dog. 

I am not a fan of AKC and I don't see them doing any such thing about listing pedigrees and health scores. People are people and its our job as a buyer to weed out all the bad breeders and edjucate those not in the know on who to look at and who to avoid. 

Personaly I like to see the dogs "at home" and not just stack photos. I hate when breeders show photos of their dogs un-groomed, I also like to see a link to the dogs pedigree, any show wins and if they are titaled in what kennel club they did so. I also like to see the papered name and the pet name.

Anyway...I have more to say but I gots to go to the store.

EDIT: One more before I go, if more show breeders were more open to selling to "pet" homes there would be less BYB's.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree too many people use google and other search engines to find breeders. The best way to start is visiting AKC/CKC shows and visiting the breed club websites.


I agree roxy... some of the best breeders don't have websites.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> I agree roxy... some of the best breeders don't have websites.


I totally agree PonkiPoodles. I think someone mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I do think it's a shame some of the best breeders are so difficult to locate and contact. And then some are so reluctant to sell to puppy homes. They're just leaving the door open for irresponsible breeders with flashy websites to snag the first time puppy buyer.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think there is a stigma or misconception about show breeders. Many people think they will only sell to show owners. This is not true at all. In a litter only 1-2, (3 at the most) pups are show quality the breeder usually keeps the best puppy. 

that being said if a breeder is claiming the whole litter is show quality I would run for the hills lol. 

When I talk to breeders many are just trying to place dogs as pets first. If you tell the breeder you just want a pet they will just sell you a pet. Any breeder that pushes the show pup on you when you did not ask for it I would not get a dog from them. its that simple tell them you want a pet only.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Purple Poodle said:


> People are people and its our job as a buyer to weed out all the bad breeders and educate those not in the know on who to look at and who to avoid.
> 
> I totally agree. I think some breeders are somewhat hostile to first time buyers, and rather than educate shame them. Then those are the people who run to some BYB or puppy mill to get their pup.
> 
> ...


Agreed. I think it's a shame some parts of the dog world can seem so exclusive and closed to those who haven't been "in the breed" for a number of years.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree too many people use google and other search engines to find breeders. The best way to start is visiting AKC/CKC shows and visiting the breed club websites.


Not only visit the breed club websites but look for local clubs, they are very friendly and welcome you even if you don't have a dog. Most local clubs have folks with different breeds and have a lot of experience they can share or can help you find those whom know.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

"- Say you only have occasional litters? Prove it by listing all the breeding stock you have as well as the litters you have bred in the last 3 years (this one could easily be falsified, but it would still be nice to know)....................

As noted in the first comment why lay out all your cards to the competition?"


I don't really understand the comment about worrying about your "competition". What do you mean? How would the competition use information against you?

I'm proud of my poodles and the poodles I have bred. I don't have a web site (Beauvoir Poodles for anyone who wants to look) just so I can sell puppies, I have a web site so that I can feature all of the things that my dogs and their owners are doing. 

I'm proud of my poodle's pedigrees and their health testing. I'm proud of the litters I've produced. I'm proud of the stud dogs I've bred to. Why wouldn't I feature these things on a web site?


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I think these are all great ideas! I personally wouldnt want a breeder who "hides" information because they dont want other breeders to see. I think sharing information would be the way to go. 

One thing i really would like to see on every dog is their stats. Birthday, height, weight. I want to know how old the dog is and what their size is. I know its a pipe dream, but i would like to see how many litters that bitch has produced also. A website that lists ALL the dogs they have/use for breeding with pictures is very helpful as well.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

I saw a link (I think it was here?) About buying your puppy safely or something similar. I opened it and it looked excellent, but I lost the page. Any ideas about where I can find it? I really wanted to read it!!!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lciano said:


> I saw a link (I think it was here?) About buying your puppy safely or something similar. I opened it and it looked excellent, but I lost the page. Any ideas about where I can find it? I really wanted to read it!!!!



Yes, there is such a thread. It is a sticky which means it will always be at the top of the subforum it is in, but to make things super easy here is a link for it. Buying a puppy safely - the basics


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Purple Poodle said:


> I can only form an opinion on the websites I have seen online as I have never been to a scanctioned dog show or talked face to face with show breeders.
> 
> Anyway I agree that all health testing results, pedigrees, and all dogs owned by the breeder are listed with current pictures.
> 
> ...


There are a number of very reputable breeders who simply do not want to deal with managing a web site. I started showing and breeding dogs in 1967 and have bred a fair number of titled dogs. I plan to breed my miniature poodle this year if she clears all genetic/health testing. I have absolutely no plans to create a web site. I have adequate contacts through the dog sports world that there will be no problem finding buyers. There are several people in our obedience club who have already expressed an interest in a puppy. 

Regarding selling to "pet" homes. I have never known any reputable breeder who is not willing to sell to a "pet" home. I would like to sell puppies to people who participate in some dog sport simply because I think that those people are more likely to provide a really great home for a puppy. 

AKC does take action against unethical people, but that is actually quite difficult. I read the AKC Gazette every month; there is always a list of people who have been fined or denied the ability to register their dogs because they have done something seriously wrong. Poodle Club of America uses the opposite approach: they have lists of recommended breeders. PCA takes into account health testing.

Finally, it's worth going to the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) web site to look up health testing results. This is especially useful if you buy from someone who uses a kennel name since you can just search for dogs with that kennel name. For example, you can go to the OFA site and look up poodles with the kennel name "Donnchada" - you'll find a long, long list of OFA registered dogs with that name. That tells you that the breeder of Donnchada poodles is serious about health testing. There is a fee for registering at OFA, so you can see that if you find a lot of dogs there from the same breeder that that person makes a great effort to test and record results.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

roxy25 said:


> When I talk to breeders many are just trying to place dogs as pets first. If you tell the breeder you just want a pet they will just sell you a pet. Any breeder that pushes the show pup on you when you did not ask for it I would not get a dog from them. its that simple tell them you want a pet only.


I agree. If you go to someone who tells you that the pet puppy you are buying is really show quality, I'd suspect they are just trying to impress you so they can charge a fancy price. It's interesting that in some cases a show puppy can be much cheaper than a pet puppy IF the breeder knows that you will be showing it. Showing dogs is horribly expensive, particularly for poodles, because poodles require such a lot of expert grooming.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Yes, there is such a thread. It is a sticky which means it will always be at the top of the subforum it is in, but to make things super easy here is a link for it. Buying a puppy safely - the basics


Awesome! Thanks so very much! I'll figure out the sticky quotes later!


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## Rosie's Mom (Aug 9, 2014)

As some may have read on the site, we lost our Rosie the week after Thanksgiving. After having a very confusing dialogue with 2 breeders who will not use the phone and only use email, we did find a breeder. We traveled over 10 hours to pick up pur new baby who we love but we arrived home with a pup who after our vet checked her had several issues. I feel that the breeder is actually some sort of puppy mill. The pup was terrified and had some health issues and has an overbite and slightly hocked leg. We did have an orthopedic vet look at her pictures and he feels is may be only a puppy who is scared walk that she will out grow as she did not appear to have any skeletal issues.

However, the pup had an eye and an ear infection. I know the breeder gave her shots, but I highly doubt that any vet ever saw her. The home of the breeder was filthy and cluttered so I cannot believe this poor pup had a great environment.

How can I find out if any one has used this breeder and what their feelings were?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rosie's Mom said:


> As some may have read on the site, we lost our Rosie the week after Thanksgiving. After having a very confusing dialogue with 2 breeders who will not use the phone and only use email, we did find a breeder. We traveled over 10 hours to pick up pur new baby who we love but we arrived home with a pup who after our vet checked her had several issues. I feel that the breeder is actually some sort of puppy mill. The pup was terrified and had some health issues and has an overbite and slightly hocked leg. We did have an orthopedic vet look at her pictures and he feels is may be only a puppy who is scared walk that she will out grow as she did not appear to have any skeletal issues.
> 
> However, the pup had an eye and an ear infection. I know the breeder gave her shots, but I highly doubt that any vet ever saw her. The home of the breeder was filthy and cluttered so I cannot believe this poor pup had a great environment.
> 
> How can I find out if any one has used this breeder and what their feelings were?


I'm sorry that I didn't see this post first. A search of PF brought up no mention of the breeder so I went to their site to look it over. My response is on your post in the Cartier Poodles thread at Finding The Right Puppy & Breeder.


I'm so sorry for your loss of Rosie. It's a hard thing to go thru. To have your grief compounded by this experience must have you beyond distressed.

I have hope that your new poodle will be doing better soon, with your loving attention.
What's her name?


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## Rosie's Mom (Aug 9, 2014)

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry that I didn't see this post first. A search of PF brought up no mention of the breeder so I went to their site to look it over. My response is on your post in the Breeder Transparency thread at Finding The Right Puppy & Breeder.
> 
> 
> I'm so sorry for your loss of Rosie. It's a hard thing to go thru. To have your grief compounded by this experience must have you beyond distressed.
> ...





Rose n Poos said:


> I'm sorry that I didn't see this post first. A search of PF brought up no mention of the breeder so I went to their site to look it over. My response is on your post in the Breeder Transparency thread at Finding The Right Puppy & Breeder.
> 
> 
> I'm so sorry for your loss of Rosie. It's a hard thing to go thru. To have your grief compounded by this experience must have you beyond distressed.
> ...


We have named her Molly. Good Golly Miss Molly and she seems to have done well this week. Her ears are better as are her eyes. When I took her back to the vet, she was terrified. But when he brought her back to me, she snuggled in. When we got home and she sniffed and realized where3 she was, she was hopping all around with a wagging tail. I think she needed a lot of hugging and patting as well as attention. She is very smart as she has figured out that going outside means getting her business done! I only hope she recognizes grass as we have had nsnow cover for over a week! She does love the snow!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is all so good to hear! Please stay in touch, maybe start a 52 Week thread so we can watch her grow with you!?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rosie's Mom said:


> How can I find out if any one has used this breeder and what their feelings were?


I’m so sorry your puppy is having these issues. I’m glad she’s safe with you now. I’m worried your post is getting lost in this old thread, so please do consider starting a new one to introduce Molly and ask for any support you need.

You can also start a new thread with the name of the breeder and make a request for feedback. But it sounds like you already know this was a bad situation. If you’re concerned about the welfare of their animals, I would be reaching out to your local humane society for guidance.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It's already here. 
Cartier Poodles


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> It's already here.
> Cartier Poodles


Okay, I’ll close this thread and continue the conversation over there. Thanks, Rose.


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