# More diversity in the Poodle crosses?



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Most of the goldendoodles I see around here are INSANE! High strung and tons of energy. The majority of the poodles I've head the pleasure of knowing and/or owning, and it's a fair amount, have been actually much softer, and much calmer. Much more...human like. Wise, intelligent, happy to lay around but up for a hike any time. What you have is simply a poodle + golden combination that turned out well, personality wise.

There are some poodles that can have some super driven or obsessive tendencies that you've described, but your typical poodle personality is often that of a softer, intelligent dog with a very nice on and off switch.

As far as having more diversity, that simply means that what temperament results is going to be more variable.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

It doesn't...

You can't generalize the poodle population based on two poodles that you know..

Plenty of other breeds that are ball obsessed (especially labs and other retrievers), or have other qualities that you mentioned. 

Your dog has a great temperament but nothing you described is special or unique to a "golden doodle". I could say the same things about my dog. 

Poodles don't all behave a certain way, I've had 3 and they were all very different. Genetics are a mixed bag, and I'm glad your dog has a great temperament but your post makes it seem like the poodle temperament was somehow improved by mixing it


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Poodles can be the silliest dogs of any that I know... And I mean that in good way. 

Watching a poodle play, you can see how their spirit differs from other dogs. I've never seen any other dog that plays the way poodles do. 

Here is a video of Naira playing... She captures the attention of the whole dog park when she does. 

https://instagram.com/p/BAFlNplEMFw/


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with CharismaticMillie! Most of the Golden doodles I've known were either hyperactive, nasty or both. I think you should look at your dog as a product of your training and relationship and a bit of luck (always some involved). Also as Naira said one should not generalize from a small number of examples (though I've known lots of golden doodles fairly well and not liked any of them too well). Poodles were bred as retrievers and are smart because of their breeding to be good workers. I have 2 spoos and they have very different personalities and are also quite different from the fairly large number of poodles I know.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Well that is exactly what I wanted to hear. And no I'm not generalizing from just the 2 Poodles that I know...that's why I wanted to hear from more poodle owners, to be fair. 
Yes I know I lucked in with Millie....and I know that a lot of it has to do with her training and the high level of interaction that she receives from me. I also know that dogs can all have different personalities, I have had many dogs over my life time. The 3 I have now are all totally different but I must say that Millie is by far the most entertaining. 
I am glad to know that you guys have the kind of Poodles that I will be someday looking for, as that is what I love...a highly interactive and fun dog. I guess that really was the purpose of my post.

And P.S. Yes Naira is incredibly cute in that video clip!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Training, Training and Training.*

Training, Training and Training, not to mention temperament. 

The temperament of Golden Retrievers is much like that of Labs.
I love both.
A standard poodle has a high drive, _for everything_.
When combined you can get a good mix of both. you can also get a bad mix of all.

*BUT*: the combination can be catastrophic. An active retrieving focused temperament of a retriever combined with the drive of a highly intelligent poodle! can be a recipe for disaster. An experienced trainer might find it a challenge! It is possible your dedication to training was the factor that made your dog a "good one"
Eric:angel2:


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Critterluvr said:


> (...) She is so smart, playful and gentle. Her personality is very diverse in that she has so many nice traits....she loves to play with the other dogs, she loves to learn tricks and learns them quickly, she loves to play fetch outside, and when not doing that she loves to be hunting rabbits and squirrels, she has a great sense of humour...loves to steal your things just so you will chase her around the house. I could go on and on...she is just a fun dog. (...) Her love of stealing socks (...)


Welp, you just described my purebred Medium Poodle's personality to a tee.

I wouldn't attribute that personality to the mixing of breeds. You just got very lucky with the parent dog's temperaments and the early experiences of your dog. Now it is true that different breeds have different temperaments and mental qualities -- those are one of the traits that can be modified by breeding. Just like sizes and shapes of body and coat colours, mental traits have been favoured and culled in various ways in different breeds. And just like physical traits, when you mix breeds, it's certainly not given what the offspring will "look" like.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Interesting thoughts. I think a mixed breed dog can have a lovely personality, but the greater diversity in the genes doesn't allow you to predict the personality easily. Certainly there's some variation between dogs within a breed, but there is a certain personality type in a breed. That to me is the biggest advantage of a purebred dog. There are thousands of mixed breeds in shelters that will make excellent pets, but if you want a certain look, function, or personality- get a purebred dog.

Like you critterluvr, I have fallen in love with the poodle traits my two poodle mixes have. Their personalities are very "human like" and there is a connectedness with me that is different than other dogs. It's hard to describe, but I think once you experience it, you know exactly what that means. Max and Lily are the only dogs I've had who watch TV, and their personalities seem more complex than other dogs. Misty, my havanese is also very bonded to me and extremely sweet and affectionate. I just love her, but she is very different from Max and Lily. And those two are very different from my past dogs as well

My next dog will be a purebred poodle. Not only do I love the personality, I also want to continue doing agility. Lily has the athleticism of the poodle- and I have had a blast with her in agility. I love how graceful she is in her movements- and that piece is all poodle! She also is very obsessed with having balls or toys in her mouth- and there is no lab in her- I think that is a poodle thing. They were bred to be retrievers after all.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Carolinek.....yes, I too have connected with Millie on a level that I haven't experienced before with other dogs. I knew that her extra pizazz has come from her poodle side and this is the reason I have decided my next dog will be a purebred poodle. Having had a Golden Retriever before I knew her love of snitching things and parading around with them may have come from the retriever side but it sounds like it is a natural poodle trait as well. I am glad.
I have Kramer (my daughter's Spoo) for the weekend and while he is a lovely affectionate dog I have just noticed that he doesn't have the happy go lucky personality that Millie possesses......he tends to be a little more one track minded, and this got me pondering. I know that dogs all have different personalities even within a specific breed so I thought it would be good to get some input from other poodle owners.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Critterluvr said:


> Carolinek.....yes, I too have connected with Millie on a level that I haven't experienced before with other dogs. I knew that her extra pizazz has come from her poodle side and this is the reason I have decided my next dog will be a purebred poodle.
> I have Kramer (my daughter's Spoo) for the weekend and while he is a lovely affectionate dog I have just noticed that he doesn't have the happy go lucky personality that Millie possesses......he tends to be a little more one track minded, and this got me pondering. I know that dogs all have different personalities even within a specific breed so I thought it would be good to get some input from other poodle owners.


I can't answer that with any authority, although one of my past dogs was a golden retriever. He was high energy- but different kind of energy- very different from a poodle.
I think poodles are more cerebral and need a good amount of mental stimulation as well as a physical outlet. 

It has been discussed here that poodles, particularly Spoos, need good, consistent training. All dogs need training, but I also think you can get away with less intensity with some dogs. My Havanese is one of those- she is easy. 
Max is mixed with Shihtzu and is an easier dog than Lily. I don't know what Lily is mixed with (if anything) but she needs direction and an outlet for her energy. I wouldn't characterize her as "easy" but with direction she is wonderful. I love her personality and will seek a similar personality in my next dog- but that's me. 

I also think finding the right breeder will help you get the dog you want, as they know their lines and would not pair you with a really drivey dog if that isn't what you want.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I have raised and owned 7 Toy Poodles, and they all had distinctly different personalities. The only thing that I would say they all had in common was superior intelligence. Only one of my 7 would I say was high drive and I loved it because she totally had an off switch, only went on when I said it was time, but when I did she was totally obsessive, yet still followed my every word like she was under remote control. 3 were very low drive and barely had any interest in anything but loving mama. And Timi and Teaka, they are both right in the middle.
The nice thing about a purebred poodle is that if you are working with a good breeder who cares about making a good match, you can describe the qualities that you are looking for in a puppy and they will guide you to just the right one - and the smaller the poodle, the longer they keep them, and the better they will be able to do that I think!


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Every poodle like every person has different traits and personalities. You will never find another one like your Millie, she will always be one of a kind. Whether it be purebred or mutt they are all different.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

I grew up with labs, have two mini poodles and a rescue doodle. The doodle's silly personality is 95% poodle. She is nothing like the labs I grew up with. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aasteapots (Oct 6, 2013)

I have a mix and a pure and they both had their strengths and weaknesses. I honestly believe it depends on the dog. I am on my second Spoo puppy in 2 years and they are like night and day. My first was quiet,sensitive and very in tune to our emotions. She was funny and playful and would kill herself trying to please us. Our second spoo who is now 12 weeks is a ball of fire! She is smart but sassy and backs down for nothing. She is not yet ready to snuggle with us and wants constant attention and mental stimulation. very different from our other spoo but just as sweet and fun. As for Goldendoodles I will say I know a few. Many are complete nuts! Out of control but that I believe has more to do with their owners but some people get lucky and get a good one with little work. My nephew has one and he is well behaved but dumb as a brick! You can't teach him ANYTHING!! he is seriously the dopey dog. SO with all that being said I think you need to decide on your next dog not based on what you know of the breed but what is common in the breed. For me I find Standard poodles to be sensitive, fun loving, eager to learn and more eager to please. I hope this helps! Good Luck!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes dogs, like people, are all so different, and even within a litter they can be very different personality wise. True I lucked in with Millie, but both of her parents had lovely temperaments and that had a lot to do with it too, and had a lot to do with why I chose her.
We had a Golden Retriever while my kids were young and she was a wonderful family dog...she was calm and patient with the kids and we loved her. Now that my kids are grown and I have more time on my hands to devote to a dog I do want a breed that's a little more intelligent and playful, which is why I'd like a Poodle. 
When the time comes I will choose a breeder carefully, I know there are ones out there who care about placing the right puppy in the right home.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I love labs! We had one as kids, and she was wonderful. I would say poodles though have an intelligence that is addictive, once you get to know it. Just tonight the humans in the house were having a conversation, and the poodles were turning to each one as they spoke, and their eyes just seemed to understand! I said to the fam, I wonder just how much they understand? When we mentioned "food," their eyes darted to the fridge and then back to us again. Oh and one of my poodles is a fetching maniac, while the other is not. But both my Boston Terriers just love to fetch! So it's a trait not limited to poodles


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## TuckersMom (Feb 9, 2016)

"Poodles can be the silliest dogs of any that I know... And I mean that in good way. 

Watching a poodle play, you can see how their spirit differs from other dogs. I've never seen any other dog that plays the way poodles do." 



Yes, watching a spoo play is the best. Bouncy, playful, athletic. I love it.


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## Drala (Aug 14, 2014)

I agree the distinction of standard poodle is intelligence and a particular kind of playful spirit. I have had quite and a few and though all were unique and different, those two qualities are defining of all. I have never owned a doodle but have to admit that the ones I have known have been very, very sweet. I can totally understand the appeal.


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

As I see it, part of the problem of the "doodle" phenomenon is that these dogs are not bred from quality bloodstock. Both parents of these crossbreds are usually puppy mill dogs, so how can they produce quality offspring? Often, no money is spent on genetic testing or hip displasia checks. They seem to rely on "hybrid vigor" to eliminate any and all possible inherited problems. If you breed a dog with an incorrect aggressive temperament, you are likely to get the same in the pups, same with bad conformation and bad coats. 

Why not buy a dog with champion, health tested parents? Silly.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

sidewinder said:


> As I see it, part of the problem of the "doodle" phenomenon is that these dogs are not bred from quality bloodstock. Both parents of these crossbreds are usually puppy mill dogs, so how can they produce quality offspring? Often, no money is spent on genetic testing or hip displasia checks. They seem to rely on "hybrid vigor" to eliminate any and all possible inherited problems. If you breed a dog with an incorrect aggressive temperament, you are likely to get the same in the pups, same with bad conformation and bad coats.
> 
> Why not buy a dog with champion, health tested parents? Silly.


Yes I'm sure this happens a lot (with all breeds/crosses), but is a generalization to say that the parents of doodles are usually puppy mill dogs. Millie's parents were both nice quality dogs that had health testing done and both had exceptional temperaments - which is one of the reasons that Millie is such a nice dog. I love her very much and wouldn't trade her for the world, I know many people with Doodles and they feel the same way about their dogs too.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> Yes I'm sure this happens a lot (with all breeds/crosses), but is a generalization to say that the parents of doodles are usually puppy mill dogs. Millie's parents were both nice quality dogs that had health testing done and both had exceptional temperaments - which is one of the reasons that Millie is such a nice dog. I love her very much and wouldn't trade her for the world, I know many people with Doodles and they feel the same way about their dogs too.



I think that in general Critterluver is correct, it is simple logic. What reputable, health testing, conformation breeder would sell their Standard Poodle, Lab, or whatever to Doodle Breeder? Just about zero! So therefore, if a doodle breeder is breeding from quality purebreds, at best they are breeding pet quality, and have questionable ethics because they are breeding dogs in violation of the no-breeding contract that they came with. And who wants a breeder with questionable ethics? What other shortcuts or liberties may they have taken? Forged health testing? Correct reporting of parentage, who knows? The only thing that we know for sure is that they are not above deceit to get what they want!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I think that in general Critterluver is correct, it is simple logic. What reputable, health testing, conformation breeder would sell their Standard Poodle, Lab, or whatever to Doodle Breeder? Just about zero! So therefore, if a doodle breeder is breeding from quality purebreds, at best they are breeding pet quality, and have questionable ethics because they are breeding dogs in violation of the no-breeding contract that they came with. And who wants a breeder with questionable ethics? What other shortcuts or liberties may they have taken? Forged health testing? Correct reporting of parentage, who knows? The only thing that we know for sure is that they are not above deceit to get what they want!


Well sure, you can look at it from whatever angle you choose....... and everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
I personally like to pick my battles, and imo if somebody wants to breed their healthy Spoo to a healthy Golden to produce a litter of doodle puppies that are raised in a home environment then let them. There is much much worse out there...... and it's not limited to doodles either.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> Well sure, you can look at it from whatever angle you choose....... and everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
> 
> I personally like to pick my battles, and imo if somebody wants to breed their healthy Spoo to a healthy Golden to produce a litter of doodle puppies that are raised in a home environment then let them. There is much much worse out there...... and it's not limited to doodles either.



Oh yeah, I am not about to go join a picket line to "stop doodling", just saying that as I consumer I do look at my perspective puppies breeding from every angle, and I would get stopped dead when I looked at that angle. If somebody else chooses to keep going after they see those red flags, that's their choice, they have to live with, I don't care.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh yeah, I am not about to go join a picket line to "stop doodling", just saying that as I consumer I do look at my perspective puppies breeding from every angle, and I would get stopped dead when I looked at that angle. If somebody else chooses to keep going after they see those red flags, that's their choice, they have to live with, I don't care.


Yes and so you should be choosey...... and so will I someday when I am ready to get a miniature poodle, I know that health and temperament are SO very important.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

When we get "into" poodles as much as we do on this forum, and we hear about breeders who do not do genetic testing, who have a nice poodle and then they look for another nice poodle to create some nice puppies without any care of how the puppies will look, a lot of us just cringe at the thought of this well intended yet somehow thoughtless breeding. We call that type of breeder a backyard breeder.

So when a person has a nice poodle that does not demonstrate any health issues and looks for another breed to create a poodle mix, it just seems one step down from backyard poodle breeding. It is certainly not making a better poodle. So it is hard for some of us to approach these types of breeders with a positive attitude. 

Yet, at the same time, I think we all recognize it is still a free enough country that people can do what they want with their dogs. Just MOST of us on this poodle forum would not be looking for a backyard breeder of purebred poodles OR a doodle breeder even if he does health testing. We are "into" poodles, the best poodles we can get.

If you want people to say doodles are healthier than purebred poodles because of the genetic diversity, you will have more people agreeing with you on a doodle forum.

Just saying...


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> When we get "into" poodles as much as we do on this forum, and we hear about breeders who do not do genetic testing, who have a nice poodle and then they look for another nice poodle to create some nice puppies without any care of how the puppies will look, a lot of us just cringe at the thought of this well intended yet somehow thoughtless breeding. We call that type of breeder a backyard breeder.
> 
> So when a person has a nice poodle that does not demonstrate any health issues and looks for another breed to create a poodle mix, it just seems one step down from backyard poodle breeding. It is certainly not making a better poodle. So it is hard for some of us to approach these types of breeders with a positive attitude.
> 
> ...


Was actually not talking about health at all, if you read my original post. Just saying.....
Anyway, my purpose was not to sway anybody's way of thinking and I HAVE been on a doodle forum...not for me. Much prefer this one.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Critterluvr said:


> Yes I'm sure this happens a lot (with all breeds/crosses), but is a generalization to say that the parents of doodles are usually puppy mill dogs. Millie's parents were both nice quality dogs that had health testing done and both had exceptional temperaments - which is one of the reasons that Millie is such a nice dog. I love her very much and wouldn't trade her for the world, I know many people with Doodles and they feel the same way about their dogs too.


It's difficult to imagine a scenario where a doodle would have "nice quality dogs" as their parents. There are *NO* reputable/quality poodle or golden/lab/etc. breeders (ie - breeders who produce QUALITY dogs) who would allow their dogs to be used to make doodles. 

And...a dog being health tested does not = quality.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sure critterluvr's Millie is a lovely dog and I wish them many happy healthy years together, but I also suspect she got lucky in many ways. Some of the most neurotic dogs I've known were goldendoodles and labradoodles. 

I think it is better to stick with a poodle or a lab or a golden (whichever has the general temperament that most appeals to you) than to rely on getting lucky. And let's face it if we pop over to a golden or a lab forum they aren't any happier about this than we are.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Critterluvr said:


> Was actually not talking about health at all, if you read my original post. Just saying.....
> Anyway, my purpose was not to sway anybody's way of thinking and I HAVE been on a doodle forum...not for me. Much prefer this one.


Most people are concerned about health when they talk about genetic diversity. Sorry if I did not follow your original post.

I find it interesting that you did not like the doodle forum and we are glad you are part of this forum. What was it about the doodle forum that makes you prefer this one? Just curious this time.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It's difficult to imagine a scenario where a doodle would have "nice quality dogs" as their parents. There are *NO* reputable/quality poodle or golden/lab/etc. breeders (ie - breeders who produce QUALITY dogs) who would allow their dogs to be used to make doodles.
> 
> And...a dog being health tested does not = quality.


That is simply your opinion....not a proven fact.

Just because a dog comes from kennel registered parents, or champion parents, or health tested parents is absolutely no guarantee. As a matter of fact I am amazed at the health issues that people have posted here on this forum and their dogs have come from "reputable breeders". 
I have had many dogs and yes they have come from back yard breeders. People I have personally checked out, saw the parents, saw how the pups were raised and was very impressed. My Golden Retriever lived to be 13 yrs and other than being spayed and vaccinations never had to visit a vet once in her life. Same with my Pointer, who lived to be 15 yrs. Our family GSD whom we did get from a reputable breeder died from cancer at 8 years.
So, there is no guarantee either way I'm afraid.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course and I will stick to mine.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Critterluvr said:


> *That is simply your opinion....not a proven fact.
> 
> Well she is actually a breeder. She shows her dogs in conformation and in obedience too, so I'll trust her opinion.
> *
> ...


We are all entitled to our opinions and I don't think we are likely to see anyone change their mind here. As I said in my last post I think you've been lucky and am happy for you on that front. At this point I am curious to know the answer to MiniPoo's question about why you didn't like the doodle forum.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

MiniPoo and Lily...sorry I meant to answer your questions about the doodle forum.

I find people much friendlier, knowledgeable and more open minded on this forum. Plus I really love the Poodle breed and do plan to get one in the near future.
The doodle forum is dominated by one or two people, and these people feel they have to comment on each and every thread, feeling their word is gospel. 
Also, the general consensus seems to be that they truly feel that the Goldendoodle/Labradoodle are actual breeds. Doesn't seem to occur to them that the different traits come from either the Poodle side or Lab side.... I find this a little odd. Most of the doodle owners there seem to be first time dog owners...... maybe this is why.

Yes I agree that I got lucky with Millie....she has inherited lovely traits. She is my heart dog.....


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thank you for that explanation Critterluvr. Now go enjoy your Millie and a ball out in the yard!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation, Critterluvr. Pedigree does not matter one iota when it comes to heart dogs. I am glad you have yours.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Critterluvr said:


> That is simply your opinion....not a proven fact.
> 
> Just because a dog comes from kennel registered parents, or champion parents, or health tested parents is absolutely no guarantee. As a matter of fact I am amazed at the health issues that people have posted here on this forum and their dogs have come from "reputable breeders".
> I have had many dogs and yes they have come from back yard breeders. People I have personally checked out, saw the parents, saw how the pups were raised and was very impressed. My Golden Retriever lived to be 13 yrs and other than being spayed and vaccinations never had to visit a vet once in her life. Same with my Pointer, who lived to be 15 yrs. Our family GSD whom we did get from a reputable breeder died from cancer at 8 years.
> ...



I agree with you. I hear a lot of people talking about how their well bred Poodle has had all of these particular health issues, and I think to myself, wow, there really is no absolute guarantee that the dog is going to be healthy all of it's life, even coming from the most reputable breeder out there. 

Yes absolutely, Poodle buyers want to purchase their dogs from the best breeders out there, in the hopes that they will have a better chance of having a healthy dog. Yes, we want to find a good reputable breeder, who does all of the necessary health testing, and whose goal is to better the breed. And that's our right to think that way, in order to have the best possible chance of having a healthy and well adjusted dog. However, the real fact is, you can get a dog from the best breeder out there, but there is STILL a chance that the dog may develop severe health issues along the way. I call it, the luck of the draw. You really don't know for an absolute fact that your well bred dog won't develop serious health issues. 

I've had 8 Poodles over the years, and they were all very healthy to the end,except for one, who had Epilepsy. They all also lived to age 13 to 16, except for two... Kaydee was 12, and Rusty was 4. Rusty died as the result of an accident. They all came from backyard breeders, except for Kaydee, who came from a Hobby Breeder. The breeder had only three breeding dogs, and 
did some genetic testing. 

Ironically, my little girl who had seizures all of her life, lived to almost 14. 
So I really do believe, it's the luck of the draw. We just do the best that we can to find the best breeder out there. And then we just have to hope for the best.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Critterluvr said:


> That is simply your opinion....not a proven fact.
> 
> Just because a dog comes from kennel registered parents, or champion parents, or health tested parents is absolutely no guarantee. As a matter of fact I am amazed at the health issues that people have posted here on this forum and their dogs have come from "reputable breeders".
> I have had many dogs and yes they have come from back yard breeders. People I have personally checked out, saw the parents, saw how the pups were raised and was very impressed. My Golden Retriever lived to be 13 yrs and other than being spayed and vaccinations never had to visit a vet once in her life. Same with my Pointer, who lived to be 15 yrs. Our family GSD whom we did get from a reputable breeder died from cancer at 8 years.
> ...


There is never a _guarantee _of any sort. Dogs are living beings and they can get sick. In regard to immune health, the gene pool in poodles is not large and backyard breeders, puppy mills and reputable breeders are all working with the same health issues. Health testing used by breeders allows for selection against many diseases, but there are many yet that cannot be tested for or easily bred away from.

What I said is that there are no reputable breeders of *QUALITY *dogs who allow their dogs to be used to make doodles. It's completely against the code of ethics that a reputable breeder would have agreed to in order to belong to a local poodle club. 

A *quality *dog adheres well to the breed standard. This would be a dog who is an excellent representation of the poodle breed in structure, conformation, breed type, temperament, and who comes from generations of selection for such traits, exhibition of these dogs in the breed ring to prove that they are excellent representations of the breed, as well as generations of health testing. These dogs are not used to make doodles.

The dogs that make their way into a doodle breeding program are, with the exception of the possibility of a very deceiving and sneaky doodle breeder who lies to a reputable breeder and obtains a dog to use for a doodle breeding program without permission, backyard bred dogs who will almost always lack quality/_breed type _. You might consider those dogs to be fine pets (healthy, sweet natured, whatever), however that does not make them *quality representatives of the breed*.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> There is never a _guarantee _of any sort. Dogs are living beings and they can get sick. In regard to immune health, the gene pool in poodles is not large and backyard breeders, puppy mills and reputable breeders are all working with the same health issues. Health testing used by breeders allows for selection against many diseases, but there are many yet that cannot be tested for or easily bred away from.
> 
> What I said is that there are no reputable breeders of *QUALITY *dogs who allow their dogs to be used to make doodles. It's completely against the code of ethics that a reputable breeder would have agreed to in order to belong to a local poodle club.
> 
> ...


It may be your philosophy, and the philosophy of many other Poodle breeders you may know not to sell your Poodles to people who may breed them to other breeds....and that is totally within your right. However adamant you are that no other reputable breeder does this is just your speculation (and wish) I'm afraid.
In truth I think it happens a lot more than you think. It is a rather large world out there.

Anyways, all three of my dogs are quality dogs in my eyes.....no they are not "show ring perfect specimens", but are quality dogs just the same. They are healthy, loyal and loving companions, THAT'S what counts with me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Doodle spotted at the dog park today. Nuff said?


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes, this debate could go on for ever and ever....... nuff said. ?


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Doodle spotted at the dog park today. Nuff said?


Showing a picture of a doodle will invoke different responses. Some poodle owners actually groom their dogs in a way that makes their dogs look like doodles, and they like that look. People who buy doodles are looking for that loose curl look as shown in your picture.

I actually think that doodle has the square conformation that poodles are suppose to have. Its tail is curled just like my mini Dakota's undocked tail, and Dakota is all poodle.

This thread, which originally started about genetic diversity in poodle mixes -- and I thought this was asking: Are poodle mixes more robust because of this diversity? -- is now just do we OR do we not like doodles and the way they look?

I am not a fan of the doodle look, whether it is an actual doodle or a poodle groomed to resemble a doodle because the owner does not like the usual poodle clips.

That being said, if a doodle owner did not like that look, they would not buy the dogs.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

And in all seriousness when I first saw the doodle pics that Tinypoodles posted I thought it looked very much like Millie..... although Millie's coat is shorter and an even length all over. Cute dog in my opinion though.

This thread has gotten off it's track, not my original intention to start a doodle/poodle debate....that's for sure. So I'm done....ttfn!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, maybe it didn't show in the pictures - that dog was abuse level matted, not loose curls hanging off it, more like dreadlocks....


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lol - I dunno about abuse level... but if Tonka ever looked like that he'd be wearing a Chadoor 'til I got him to the groomer. Only his eyes showing. 

But seriously... this is Poodle Forum, not PoodleX Forum. Vigorous or not, a cross breed contains many traits of Poodles... but they're not Poodles. So of no concern to most of us here.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

It wasn't the cut or doodle look that bothered me, but the poor dog was DEFINITELY matted. Poor guy needs a shave.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Caddy said:


> It wasn't the cut or doodle look that bothered me, but the poor dog was DEFINITELY matted. Poor guy needs a shave.



And it all goes back to what annoys me the most about Doodles (citterluvr not included), they largely attract first time dog owners who don't make the effort to groom nor train them. And the breeders don't care, and keep churning them out and selling them to anyone stupid enough to pay double what they would for a Spoo.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Critterluvr said:


> It may be your philosophy, and the philosophy of many other Poodle breeders you may know not to sell your Poodles to people who may breed them to other breeds....and that is totally within your right. However adamant you are that no other reputable breeder does this is just your speculation (and wish) I'm afraid.
> In truth I think it happens a lot more than you think. It is a rather large world out there.
> 
> Anyways, all three of my dogs are quality dogs in my eyes.....no they are not "show ring perfect specimens", but are quality dogs just the same. They are healthy, loyal and loving companions, THAT'S what counts with me.


It actually isn't just my opinion. It is the official opinion of the organization that determines what = a poodle. Code of Ethics - Poodle Club of America


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My Jose` "Chihuahua" is quality in my eyes too. He's adorable, wonderful temperament, healthy, (had luxating patellas but fixed) somewhat resembles a Chihuahua. 





He's been the perfect companion for 14 years. He's absolutely the epitome of sweetness. But that doesn't make him a quality specimen of a Chihuahua. For breeding purposes, a governing body (aka: AKC) has to have something to go on or our individual breeds would cease to exist. (Or I wouldn't balk at a working farm dog that has generations of healthy, able working dogs behind the puppies if I were in the market for a working or herding dog) If they're not structurally sound and healthy, they can't work all day long and pass on great genes.

Dogs would all be a mish mash and no defining features would be present anymore if every breeder bred mixed breed dogs, even if they were healthy and nice. So there are mixed breeds, byb dogs that make wonderful pets, no doubt there. I've had my share._ BUT_ that isn't what CM is talking about. She means quality as in...adhering to the written standards so our pure bred dogs can stay distinct from other breeds and continue to do what they were bred to do, be it hunt, retrieve, track, get vermin out of holes in the ground etc. A breeder who breeds mixed breeds on purpose will be hard pressed to find a dog bred by a reputable breeder for breeding stock because it is an oxymoron that a quality (as CM describes) dog to be used in breeding mixed breed dogs on purpose. 

Btw...I've met a few Labradoodles and a Goldendoodle...had one as a client's dog. They were all lovely temperamentally. One was very young and untrained and so he was a wild child. But no more than many other pups in his situation. I've asked owners if they shed and their particular dogs didn't. I have nothing against the dogs themselves. I think both breeds that make them are wonderful. I'm just against making more mixed breeds when there are so many languishing in shelters without a real home.


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## animalcule (Apr 19, 2015)

It's hard not to feel somewhat personally attacked re: the Doodle debate. My Sully is 1/2 Golden Retriever but passes for a purebred Spoo. He's an amazing and stable dog, personality-wise - good conformation and hasn't had the smallest health issue ever - and despite being a mill dog he has some famous ancestors on both the Poodle and GR sides of his pedigree. Honestly, if he passed all the major health tests for both breeds, I think he'd be an excellent candidate for reproducing. I don't have any plans for that. But as much as I love Poodles and value the hard work of people who preserve the health and heritage of pure bred dogs, I don't think cross bred dogs are a bad thing or something to be discouraged. It is absolutely possible to produce wonderful companion and performance animals who are functionally sound (in body and mind) by mixing breeds. Inbreeding has been so devastating for almost every purebred/registered breed, I don't understand why most people are so opposed to crossing in new blood or producing dogs that have characteristics of both breeds.

It is true though that the majority of Doodles are irresponsibly-bred marketing gimmicks that appeal to dog-ignorant folks. And neither a GR, Lab or Spoo is a good fit for your average people with full time jobs and little dog experience. I've seen it play out several times myself, that's actually how I got my Sully, and it's really sad. But I love my Doodle and would adopt another in a heartbeat!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Animalcule, I can understand how things said about doodles makes you feel bad. I am sorry that you feel personally attacked. But the promotion of doodle breeding is expressly prohibited on this forum and even though there are wonderful examples of doodles, since this is a POODLE forum, and not a doodle forum, most people here are prejudiced against doodles in general although they can appreciate them on an individual basis.

I wish the topic of doodles would be declared a forbidden topic on this forum. The discussion always ends up hurting the feelings of people who own doodles.

You would do well not to take this discussion personally. If you are looking for acceptance of doodle breeding here, you are looking in the wrong place.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This may seem only tangentially related, but I had remembrance of a conversation I had a while ago with one of my vet friends about why most vets are so resistant to telling new puppy owners to take their puppies to training classes and to otherwise get them out and about for socialization at young ages. Her answer was that if she told her clients to do that she would be afraid that too many people would take that to mean "run your puppy at a dog park." 

My point is that while critterluvr, animalcule and MollyMuiMia and others here all have wonderful pooXsomething dogs and we are happy to have you be part of the discussion you can't expect to promote crosses on a Poodle Forum and have others be happy about it. Also it is against forum rules to do so. There are too many people who produce dogs with problems and make [email protected]*loads of money doing it by taking advantage of gullible and inexperienced dog owners for most of the members of PF to think do Xbreeds is a good thing.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

I love my doodle, but she was a cruelty seizure dog who was adopted, not bought, lining some BYB's pockets. She's sweet, but at four years old she's already had one mast cell tumour removed and I suspect there will be more. She's a great dog, but she went though hell before she was adopted all because people have this obsession with everything poodle except actual poodles. She was a breeder who was seized with her litter, horribly matted and with an abscess on her neck. I love her, but I'd be much happier if this doodle fad just never happened and she never had to be born into a world that only wanted to take advantage of her. 
There's just no point, either choose a lab, golden, etc, or get a poodle and keep it in less poodley clip. There's really nothing to gain to by crossing them. 
I'd eat my socks if someone showed me a doodle breeder with champion poodle and golden parents who are fully health tested whose dogs came from breeders who knew and were okay with their dogs being used to produce mutts. I just don't think it's going to happen. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## PhoebeAndMe (Dec 25, 2015)

Animalcule, I totally understand where you are coming from and I am sorry you feel attacked. I haven't been on this forum long, but I don't think anyone means to hurt someone's feelings.

My two dogs are mixes, Seamus has "some" Spoo in him (along with everything seemingly than what the rescue thought :aetsch: ) and Phoebe was supposedly Maltese and she's mostly Mpoo with a little Bichon Frise....therefore a BichPoo (sorry that cracks me up). Seamus was planned and Phoebe was planned for a little while later, but she was meant to be from a breeder and in a few years. Life took me down a different road and that's okay.

But I would venture to say the majority of "oodle" breeders are in it for the money. If no one bought Maltipoos, then you wouldn't see a lot. Cockapoos were the big thing when we were kids (never had one but loads of families around us did). They have I guess fallen out of fashion.

My dad shows currently and was a sled dog racer for years. He grew up showing Spoos and Airedales, and when he could afford it again (time and money wise) he started showing again. But he has only produced two litters in a little over ten years due to the fact he's in it for the betterment of the breed (Samoyeds). He has had two rescue dogs, one actually DUMPED for being too old to race anymore (Alaskan Husky which is NOT a breed, the name is for its use pulling sleds) and another from someone's puppies who had too many and knew my dad would make a great home. I was brought up you ALWAYS spay, you ALWAYS neuter even pedigreed dogs UNLESS they are being titled and for the betterment of the breed. You could have the most gorgeous looking dog, but if the dog wasn't right for showing being he or she hated it or they had something wrong (a lot of this was before I knew about testing because it was taught to me as a kid) you just don't. Now this could be because my grandma (his mom) was very careful about which kennels and lines she worked with, I mean this was her thing since the early 1950s after she had kids or maybe that was just what I picked up.

My husband came from a family that if they had two cute dogs, let's have puppies! I have gotten them to spaying and neutering, not having dogs dumped in the yard (they are social and want people), and that kennels are not prisons mentality...mostly. FIL feels his dog wants to have sex, never neutered him, and now he does have cancer (he's only 12 and for a dog his weight that seems weird to me) but who knows if that's related, though it is testicular. They still declaw their cats too and leave them outside all the time.

But anyway, IME with people that show and/or are ambassadors for full bred anything, be it horses, goats (yes goats), cats or dogs that they want to inform the public of their breed, the good, the bad, and the realities and not encourage mostly less educated BYB and mills to make money.

And you don't want to know how I feel about PETLAND. I remember picketing them in the late 1980s and can't believe they are still in business.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> First of all I just want to make it clear that I am not promoting nor defending Poodle crosses. I am also not criticizing the Poodle personality in any way.
> I just would like your opinions and input, as Poodle owners.
> 
> I absolutely love my goldendoodle Millie's personality. She is so smart, playful and gentle. Her personality is very diverse in that she has so many nice traits....she loves to play with the other dogs, she loves to learn tricks and learns them quickly, she loves to play fetch outside, and when not doing that she loves to be hunting rabbits and squirrels, she has a great sense of humour...loves to steal your things just so you will chase her around the house. I could go on and on...she is just a fun dog.
> ...


I didn't really get a chance to post much in this thread except for that last one. I'd like to get back to your original post. The question of whether there's more diversity in the mix breed than there is in a pure breed, well, sure there is. The gene pools of most all the breeds are very small. Now when you take one breed, a Poodle say and breed it to a Golden Retriever or Lab, you get a bigger genetic pool. The lifeguard was at lunch break. And therefore, the odds of getting a genetic health problem are diversified or a little less. BUT, this is important: *NOT NECESSARILY*. You can get something passed down from either side or both if those dogs carry something that is hereditary. But mathematically, (okay, don't hold me to this because I'm no mathematical genius :alberteinstein I believe that the odds are better in a general sort of way. I believe in this: I think everyone should read this. The myth of hybrid vigor in dogs...is a myth - The Institute of Canine Biology

Does that mean we should champion those who breed designer mixed breed dogs? I say "no." And that's because of many of the reasons stated already about these breeders' general inability to use health tested, temperament verified (by an akc judge, say) etc...they can't get a hold of the best of the best for their breeding stock. Their dogs are not titled in any way, no proof of their conformation being correct, no demonstration of their physical ability to track, hunt, retrieve...no way to prove or verify their temperament or abilities inherent in the breed. In that way, the _odds_ go down of passing on strong, desirable traits in those breeds. It doesn't mean the offspring get no good genes. It means mathematically, the odds are not quite with us with these kinds of breeders.

And secondly or maybe this should be firstly, when there are already millions of mixed breed dogs in shelters without a home, why churn out more mixed breeds like loaves of bread on a conveyor belt as they do? There are plenty of homeless dogs that are loving and desirous of a home but end up homeless because someone is selling someone a mix breed dog for thousands. 

There's a place for purebred dogs because without good breeders, we'd lose our purebred dogs altogether. And there's a place for mixed breed dogs but they're already in abundance and available. Don't support or advocate for those who irresponsibly breed more mixed breed dogs, including purposeful mixes like Labradoodles and all the designer breeds. 

Animalcule, is this a personal attack???? If you think that, then I don't know what kind of mindset that is. I don't get that at all. It's a very generic, general outlook on the matter. It's nothing personal about the dogs themselves. Like I've said, I've met plenty of lovely Doodles along with other mixed breeds. I've owned mixed breeds. I own a byb Chihuahua. It's nothing against the dogs or owners or even breeders *IF* they haven't been informed or they don't see this the way most of us on PF see this. Once the info is out, and those breeders ignore it and keep on producing these dogs, then yes...disdain creeps in for those who are causing harm. Once educated, buyers who continue to buy from these irresponsible breeders are supporting and perpetuating this immoral practice. I'm glad you are on the forum and glad you have a nice dog to love and share stories with us. But _advocating_ for the breeding and continuation of doodles or other designer breeds is disallowed on this forum and frowned upon. Many of us have mixed breed dogs or poorly bred dogs, such as my Jose` Chihuahua boy. I've never felt personally attacked about my_ supposed_ purebred but _probable_ mixed breed dog. He's darling. But if I were to talk about breeding him or sing the praises of his breeder, saying something like more dogs like Jose` should be bred, you bet I'd get an earful. lol.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I take each member as a member... never even look to see what kind of dogs they have. Everybody gets judged by their charming personalities.


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## animalcule (Apr 19, 2015)

I think everyone in this thread was a great participant in the discussion and didn't get personal at all! I was more referring to anti-crossbreeding sentiment (especially towards Doodles as they're so trendy) I've encountered all over the Internet, not so much here. I've definitely seen people go on and on about how awful and bad individual 'designer' dogs are and how anyone who has them is a fool. I'm pretty dog savvy and am also lucky to have a wonderful dog who happens to be a Doodle - and I'd get another too.

I'm just not so much of a believer in the importance of keeping purebred dogs 'pure' with tiny gene pools no matter the consequences to the breed, I guess. And some people take the pedigreed 'purity' of purebred dogs very seriously.

But one reason I love Poodles and my next dog will be a purebred Poodle from a breeder is that they are some of the healthiest purebreds that exist and there are so many awesome breeders focusing on not only continued health of their stock but also, genetic diversity. That is a really special and unusual thing. I'm also involved in the Doberman fancy and they are light years behind Poodle people and the breed is irreparably damaged at this point imo, with 55% of dogs dying of heart failure.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

animalcule said:


> I think everyone in this thread was a great participant in the discussion and didn't get personal at all! I was more referring to anti-crossbreeding sentiment (especially towards Doodles as they're so trendy) I've encountered all over the Internet, not so much here. I've definitely seen people go on and on about how awful and bad individual 'designer' dogs are and how anyone who has them is a fool. I'm pretty dog savvy and am also lucky to have a wonderful dog who happens to be a Doodle - and I'd get another too.
> 
> *I'm just not so much of a believer in the importance of keeping purebred dogs 'pure' with tiny gene pools no matter the consequences to the breed, I guess. And some people take the pedigreed 'purity' of purebred dogs very seriously.*
> 
> *But one reason I love Poodles and my next dog will be a purebred Poodle from a breeder is that they are some of the healthiest purebreds that exist and there are so many awesome breeders focusing on not only continued health of their stock but also, genetic diversity.* That is a really special and unusual thing. I'm also involved in the Doberman fancy and they are light years behind Poodle people and the breed is irreparably damaged at this point imo, with 55% of dogs dying of heart failure.



You like Poodles, I presume besides a fairly healthy breed, for their traits too, right? And you like Dobermans for their wonderful traits.... except for their poor health as a breed. (me too) Most people like certain traits, certain looks, certain functions, like a breed for the job they do, health of specific breeds. How did the breeds come to be? For thousands of years people have been selecting for certain traits until a breed is uniform enough to call it a breed. Thousands of years of hard work with some mistakes along the way...mistakes that responsible breeders try to undo by trying to breed away poor health, poor temperaments, a lacking of some specific trait that the breed should demonstrate. You mention liking certain things about a Poodle and plan on getting one in the future. But you also say you'd support another breeder who isn't trying to improve a breed, but rather is mixing two different breeds to get a Doodle... of unproven stock as far as health, (most usually) and of no uniformity, that you'd be okay with no uniformity. If that's the case, then why get a Poodle or another specific breed at all? Our purebred dogs came to be because people wanted specific traits and uniformity of breeds that they could count on for a job to have help with.

Out-crossing occasionally might hold some answers for improving the genetic diversity that our breeds seem to need. But this isn't done by creating Labradoodles the way they're generally created...It isn't done by haphazard breeding practices.


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## animalcule (Apr 19, 2015)

You have my agreement that the way most Doodles are being produced is bad for the individual dogs involved, bad for many of the people who adopt those dogs as pets, and is not improving the health of the dogs produced.

I'd get another Doodle but I paid $200 to 'adopt' mine from his original owner, who paid $1600 for him at Petland. I haven't ever seen a breeder crossing Spoos who is using methods I'd pay $1000+ for. But many Spoo breeders with registered dogs are unfortunately just as irresonsible as the Doodlers.

I think we mostly agree, fundamentally. I'm a 'purebred dog person' to a certain extent. I choose my dogs for predictable traits. I have a Livestock Guardian dog (3/4 Kangal 1/4 Pyrenees), a protection/companion dog (Doberman), and a companion/gundog (Goldendoodle). None of them are registered purebreds and two are mixed breeds - but the breeds mixed have similar functions and behavioral traits. I still got what I expected with their traits.


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