# What can be told from the coloring of this puppy?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

There are other folks here who are more knowledgeable about color genes than I am, but I can say that in addition to the poor eye color there is poor pigment on the nose of this pup too.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The nose color suggests that the puppy is bbee which means that he inherited a brown gene from each of his parents. The ee overrides the coat color with cream, but the nose color is determined by the bb (brown, brown). You would also expect lighter eyes with a bb poodle, but brown not blue. The eyes in the picture look more brown to me than blue, so I am guessing that the eye color is just a result of the bb genes -- the same eyes as a brown poodle would have.

Brown points on a cream poodle is a flaw in the show ring, so this pup is not going to win any AKC championships. But there is no reason why he couldn't be a fabulous pet.

For a clear but basic review of poodle color genetics, see the MJ Rawlings article in March 2015 issue of the Poodle Club of Canada’s Poodle Scene. Article starts on page 14, so you need to scroll down.
http://www.poodleclubcanada.club/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/2015-PCC-News-2-Spring.pdf


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

There was a convo about a blue eyed poodle on PF six years ago :

https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/17363-question-about-eyes-3.html


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

Dechi said:


> There was a convo about a blue eyed poodle on PF six years ago :
> 
> https://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/17363-question-about-eyes-3.html


Well based on those pictures, it makes me think they might not be blue after all. The poodle in that discussion has really blue eyes!


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

Here is a full sibling of that pup. He’s two years old, was registered apricot but then faded to cream, and now has wiry red hairs coming in on his back. He always had dark black points, but his eyes are lighter brown or dark amber.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

peppersb said:


> Brown points on a cream poodle is a flaw in the show ring, so this pup is not going to win any AKC championships. But there is no reason why he couldn't be a fabulous pet.


Seems strange to me that liver points are not a fault (albeit not ideal) on an apricot but they are a fault on a cream. Often an apricot puppy will gradually fade to a cream, because they are just different shades of the same color. So it’s possible for an apricot with liver points to gain a fault by a normal fade to cream.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

some brown poodles have very light amber colored eyes


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

twyla said:


> some brown poodles have very light amber colored eyes


Would you consider this pup’s eyes to fall within the norm for poodles? I guess my whole point is I want to be sure it’s not a sign of something genetically wrong, like merle or an unknown outcross.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Ethan said:


> Would you consider this pup’s eyes to fall within the norm for poodles? I guess my whole point is I want to be sure it’s not a sign of something genetically wrong, like merle or an unknown outcross.


I would also be afraid of the Merle gene. Can you find better photos of the puppy ?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I thought light pigment _was_ a fault on apricots :noidea: All the ones in the show ring have black pigment and dark eyes. 

I think that dog's eyes will turn that hazel/amber color that is common on "bad" creams and apricots. Sometimes the eyes look blue when they are pups, just like babies like my niece and nephew were born with blue eyes, but they turned a beautiful hazel. So I think the eye color falls within normal range.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

Dechi said:


> Ethan said:
> 
> 
> > Would you consider this pup’s eyes to fall within the norm for poodles? I guess my whole point is I want to be sure it’s not a sign of something genetically wrong, like merle or an unknown outcross.
> ...


I will try to find better pictures.

I did a web search for merle poodles with blue eyes, and what I saw seemed to be more bright blue, like the typical one blue eye of an Aussie.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

zooeysmom said:


> I thought light pigment _was_ a fault on apricots
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is the relevant part of the AKC poodle standard.
_Color: The coat is an even and solid color at the skin. In blues, grays, silvers, browns, cafe-au-laits, apricots and creams the coat may show varying shades of the same color. This is frequently present in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the ruff. While clear colors are definitely preferred, such natural variation in the shading of the coat is not to be 
considered a fault. Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black 
noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. *In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable.* Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog. Parti-colored dogs shall be disqualified. The coat of a parti-colored dog is not an even solid color at the skin but is of two or more colors._

So that is how an apricot with brown points is acceptable but not desirable in the show ring. 

I am hoping it’s just a normal variation and not a sign of something worse. It’s kind of important since I’m considering breeding a full sibling of the pup in the picture.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I think that the puppy is a normal bbee poodle. That means that the bb (brown, brown) will give the dog a brown nose and lighter eyes. The color of your puppy's eyes should be in the range of what you see for a brown spectrum poodle (a brown, cafe or silver beige poodle). So take a look at some brown poodles and see if you think that your puppy's eyes look like theirs. You can find plenty of photos of brown poodles by googling "brown poodles" or by looking at the brown thread here: https://www.poodleforum.com/36-poodle-rainbow/15859-brown-poodle-thread.html

Based on the photo you posted, I think your pup is normal, and I do not see any reason to suspect a merle gene.

The thread that Dechi referred to in post #4 looked to me like a poodle with something wrong -- blue eyes with the white of the eye showing all the way around. (See post #11 here: www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/17363-question-about-eyes-2.html) But your poodle looks just fine to me -- normal bb coloring for the eyes.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

To me they look like normal brown poodle eye color. Many of them, especially if they will have light amber eyes, look almost blue as babies. Then they slowly turn gooseberry green then amber. Sometimes they will even keep a ring greenish pigment in the eye. All normal and well within the realm of normal poodle colors. My boy Phin had surprisingly dark eyes for a brown but his puppy photos still show that paler color. The photo shows his sister Georgia. Notice how pale her eyes are in that photo and almost bluish looking? They turned into a lovely amber and she became a lovely silver beige...

yes the puppy in the op photo is cream but it is a brown based cream not a black based cream so the whole funky eye color things that happen with a brown dog will happen with it.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Ethan said:


> I am hoping it’s just a normal variation and not a sign of something worse. It’s kind of important since I’m considering breeding a full sibling of the pup in the picture.


If you are considering breeding, I would have the dog you want to breed color tested and also color test any proposed mates. You want to avoid producing bbee -- that's the cream (or white or apricot or red) with brown points. You can avoid producing bbee by making sure that at least one parent is either BB or EE. That way, you make sure that all of the puppies will have either one B or one E -- so no bbee.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

peppersb said:


> If you are considering breeding, I would have the dog you want to breed color tested and also color test any proposed mates. You want to avoid producing bbee -- that's the cream (or white or apricot or red) with brown points. You can avoid producing bbee by making sure that at least one parent is either BB or EE. That way, you make sure that all of the puppies will have either one B or one E -- so no bbee.


Yes, I plan to do color testing along with the health testing. I still haven’t figured out how color genetics work. I have a lot to learn in this process!

What can be told by the color genetics of the parents? I have the color test results on my girl Elfie’s parents.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Ethan said:


> Yes, I plan to do color testing along with the health testing. I still haven’t figured out how color genetics work. I have a lot to learn in this process!
> 
> What can be told by the color genetics of the parents? I have the color test results on my girl Elfie’s parents.


The article by Manda Rawlings that I referred to previously is a fabulous introduction to poodle color genetics. It really covers the basics very well. 

You said that your girl's parents were both cream (or apricot faded to cream). That means that they are both ee. Also, the two of them together produced a bbee poodle. Assuming that they have black (not brown) points, that means that they are Bb. So your dog's parents are both Bbee. The question that might be relevant for you is whether your poodle inherited a b (brown) from one of them. Your poodle could be either Bbee or BBee. If she is BBee, then you do not need to worry about her producing cream with brown/liver points. 

Another good resource is the chart here:
https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

peppersb said:


> You said that your girl's parents were both cream (or apricot faded to cream). That means that they are both ee. Also, the two of them together produced a bbee poodle. Assuming that they have black (not brown) points, that means that they are Bb. So your dog's parents are both Bbee. The question that might be relevant for you is whether your poodle inherited a b (brown) from one of them. Your poodle could be either Bbee or BBee. If she is BBee, then you do not need to worry about her producing cream with brown/liver points.


Sorry about the confusion, I should have been more specific, my bad! The pup with light eyes is a full sibling to the dog I’m considering breeding with my girl. His name is Jack. I have the genetic test results for my girl’s parents, but not for Jack’s parents. 

I just looked at my girl’s parents’ test results, and here’s what I found: her sire is B/B, Em/e and her dam is B/B, e/e. So from this I guess we can conclude that my girl doesn’t carry any brown, and so her pups would not be cream with liver points, though they could inherit a “b” from their sire.


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## Tatltail (Oct 11, 2020)

I don't know how applicable this is to poodles, but I've noticed in other breeds when solution becomes a trend and people breed specifical lot for it that it can have an effect on eye color. I'm thinking of beagles particularly, since they are also not merle. Blues, and lemon beagles from breeders who are aiming mostly for the color often turn up this dark blue color. All the merles dogs I've seen have very bright blue eyes, or two tone eyes, very different from the type of blue you see in diluted colors. What's really wild to me are the chocolate/ brown based dogs from these breeders sometimes have eyes that look green by the time they are adults! Very striking but also pretty weird.


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