# What to do.... in obedience class sit stay and down stay



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You can set up situations that are distracting...similar to what those dogs did but think of something more mild...not quite that distracting. Keep it so it's just below her threshold tolerance and reward her lavishly for staying put. Make it easy for her at first and work your way up as she succeeds to a little more difficult. It's just a matter of more practice and setting up particular training scenarios at home or other places where she _can_ succeed. You don't want her to keep breaking the stay by asking too much too soon, as happened in the class. Then she learns that it works to get up. Make sure you make it easy at first and set her up to succeed, making it well worth her while. Do mix up the locations and the situations so she doesn't only comply with one kind of thing.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I am going to look at it from the dog's point of view. Another dog, that she doesn't know well and has only limited knowledge of how friendly they are and how safe they are to ignore, is coming up to her and prodding her or standing over her. And you are asking her to stay lying down, vulnerable and unable to move away, in a potentially risky situation. I am sure that with careful work you can teach her that other dogs are not a risk in the obedience ring, and can safely be ignored (and hope that you are always right!), but I have to say that if I were the dog I would be on my feet instantly in those circumstances!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Definitely not a natural thing to be okay with strange dogs stepping over a dog lying down. But we ask all kinds of weird things from our dogs. For CGC, for instance we have to make it so our dogs are okay with wheeled things that make lots of noise, that are bigger than they are go right past them very close. They're expected to put up with perfect strangers "examining" them. We expect them to wait quietly without us in a strange place, being held by a stranger. They need walk within inches of strange dogs when they pass head on. They all do a down/stay right next to each other in a line for obedience class. 

So dogs from the class that your dog may be slightly familiar with, having seen them before are just one other thing to tolerate. If you know the dogs are not aggressive, are not a danger, it is hoped that your dog will trust you enough to follow your lead. So when you ask your dog to stay, once he's had _ample training_, even if a stranger steps over him or near him, a human or a dog, he is capable of learning that your asking him to stay is going to be safe for him because you're his very confident care taker. But yeah...at first, these kinds of things are unnerving to a dog. It will take practice, as I mentioned.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I actually think it is okay for a dog to move if another dog directly interferes with it during sits and downs. I have seen judges give the dog that broke because another dog interfered with it give the "interfered" dog a second chance at the stay. I had one time where Lily broke a stay when a handler in the ring next to us hit the high jump with her dumbbell very loudly. We were NQ'd, but the judge did have us and another team whose dog broke at the same time redo the stays.

The hard thing about group stays is that they have nothing going on. I actually think putting a lot of distractions in to proof them is sort of counterproductive. Often the venue can get very quiet during the stays. The dogs shouldn't look at or pay any attention to each other. the reason I've never gone beyond beginner novice with Peeves is that his herding dog thinking kicks in during the stays and he can't allow himself to not try to look around. If he catches the eye of another dog he will be the naughty one who gets up. On the other hand, Lily does her sits and downs like a statue. I once had her in for open stays at a very large venue with a lot of spectators (there is a large conformation show and a huge agility trial at the same time and place). After we came out of the ring when the stays were done, one of the spectators came over and said something along the lines of "I'm not really sure I understood what that was about but if the idea was for the dog to stay very still, your's was the best!"

Some distraction proofing is good, but I think the real key to sits and downs is reinforcing the idea that stay means "remain here in this position until I return to you and tell you to do otherwise."

Do you have separate orders for stay vs. wait? Those are different orders for my dogs. Stay means exactly what I put in quotes above. Wait means hang out here as I am leaving you until I tell you to do something else from a distance.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Skylar said:


> My dog Babykins, at home will sit or lay down for minimum 5 minutes (timed) even with cats roaming around. She is also perfect in agility when she has to sit while I walk to the opposite side of the room and call her with my back turned to either my right side or left. She even did this last week when someone knocked down one of the barriers and it made a loud noise in the middle of her running to me. Needless to say I was very proud of her.
> 
> In obedience class we are practicing the group sit stay and down stay. We are doing several things differently so the dogs don't learn a pattern and to help bombproof the dogs. For example we had to line the dogs up with one dog facing the back of another dog and then leaving them in sit stay while the handlers walked the perimeter of the room. Again Babykins has no problem.
> 
> ...



Actually, Babykins did_ remarkably_ well I think. Getting such reliability in anything...rock solid stays, recalls, etc, regardless of external stimuli is a process and it comes in degrees over time. I don't feel like it's something to be rushed because I've found over the years of training dogs that the most solid results come from working through increments and time, practice and maturity does a lot toward getting closer to the ultimate result. Ultimately, it would be nice if your dog stayed no matter what when you ask her to stay. (unless there's a fire) Ultimately, you want your dog to stay if you are on the opposite side of the road and you see a car coming and your dog might jump in front of it. Ultimately, you want her to stay whether another dog comes along and touches her or not. But these things take time and steady, dedicated work. Dogs are capable of such obedience but it's not going to happen over night. 

As an aside: On another thread, a trainer was having the students call their dogs from a stay. I don't recommend doing that at all for a very long time and then later, way down the road, calling only once out of 15 stays_ if you must_. You'll get a much more solid stay if the dog is NEVER recalled from it, but instead you go_ to_ your dog. In other words, to the dog's mind, stay means stay. Period.

I will use "wait" if I want the dog to wait in the general place I left him, but not the exact place or position. I will call the dog from a wait. Matisse and I are working on a little trick where he waits, comes, waits, comes as I keep walking. So it is not "stay." I would not call him from a stay.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would never ever ever recall from a stay, only from a wait.

Skylar to go back to your original question, I have almost never seen dogs break the stays except under extraordinary circumstances. Lily has gotten off a sit stay and moved out of the line precisely three times in all of her times in trial rings. Once I gave her a wishy washy order and she tried to come with me. She took several steps out of the line and then stood right where she stopped when she realized no other dogs were moving for the three full minutes of the open sit stay. One time she left the ring completely to go to her crate when the dumbbell hit the high jump in the next ring (it sounded as loud as a cannon) and one time when the stewards table crashed to the floor during a novice sit stay. By the time people are entering trials the stays end up not being a problem exercise.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I wouldn't be very concerned...it sounds like she is very solid on her stays. What I would do is go back to her and reenforce like hell if another dogs messes with her in any way and she holds the stay, or even if another dog breaks his stay. I will also return to my dog and reinforce if another owner is correcting or scolding her dog. 

I happened to be talking to an AKC judge yesterday at the Upland test, and she teaches all of her dogs to believe in what she calls the Stay Fairy. She recruits random people at matches, run-thrus, agility trials, etc., to approach her dog on a stay and give her a treat. That way they come to believe that 98% of the time, a Stay Fairy will come visit during the stays. At run throughs, you can also ask the "judge" to give the dog a treat during stays.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve I love the idea of the treat fairy! The only thing i would make sure of is that the treat fairy knows to put the treat for the down stay down between the dog's feet, rather than feeding it from above the head.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Just wanted to let everyone know I've read everything but I've been so busy this weekend that I haven't had time to respond - I will do so this week.

BTW I love that idea of the treat fairy - haha.


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