# Are We Able to Keep Her?? Advice Please



## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

Good morning all-

My husband and I recently added Truffles, a gorgeous spoo girl, to our family. We have an 8 year old peek-a-poo already. Truffles was born December 12, so is still very much a puppy. We love her already but I'm concerned about the fights that she's been having with our older dog and whether or not this indicates that we may not be able to keep her. Our old boy has lived in our home all his life and has been spoiled... when Truffles gets out of her crate, sometimes he wonders in, resulting in bad fighting. Sometimes he just gets annoyed at her constant wanting to play, resulting in bad fighting... see where I'm going? I step in and assert dominance, but my concern is... will this end if I just continue to end the fighting or will it continue because he, the older dog, will continue to wander around wherever and whenever he wants, and she will continue to assert her dominance....? There has been no blood shed from either dog as of yet, but i have been lightly bitten when separating them... light punctures on my hand.. my concern is that our peekapoo is already smaller than her and will of course be much smaller that her... he could get really hurt. I need help


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/193634-just-picked-up-our-new-girl-weekend.html

here's the introduction I posted. As you can see, Truffles is gorgeous and lovely in every way.. I've always wanted a poodle. Now I'm just not so sure it's going to work for our family due to the older boy we have. Any help would be much appreciated! I just want both pups to be healthy and happy, whatever that means.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sorry you're having trouble  

When you say fighting, do you mean your 8 year old is lashing out when Truffles gets too playful? We had that issue with Maizie and actually, still do occasionally where she wants to play with the two little dogs and they want nothing to do with her. I separate them with baby gates if Maizie is too wild, or I put her in her crate with something to chew, or I take her out and play ball to get her energy out. She is only allowed to be with the others when she leaves them alone (which is most of the time now). 

I don't think you need to give up yet--try some separation, and always let your little guy know you'll protect him from wild puppy. Hope this helps


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

I'm kind of surprised Truffles is fighting back. Typically, the older dog (smaller or not) is able to establish the alpha role. I had a mini dachshund who established the alpha role over our doberman puppy (lots of years ago). 

How long have you had truffles? He's just 5 days older than my Teddy. My Boston Terrier, Jack, gets grumpy with him and snaps, but Teddy usually backs off quickly. I haven't had to intervene other than to distract/move Teddy to give Jack some space. I keep hoping Jack will come around, too. 

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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> I'm sorry you're having trouble
> 
> When you say fighting, do you mean your 8 year old is lashing out when Truffles gets too playful? We had that issue with Maizie and actually, still do occasionally where she wants to play with the two little dogs and they want nothing to do with her. I separate them with baby gates if Maizie is too wild, or I put her in her crate with something to chew, or I take her out and play ball to get her energy out. She is only allowed to be with the others when she leaves them alone (which is most of the time now).
> 
> I don't think you need to give up yet--try some separation, and always let your little guy know you'll protect him from wild puppy. Hope this helps



Hey thanks for replying! I mean... she gets angry with him for walking by or in her crate and attacks him... he attacks back... then is mad at her for a while after to the point where he wants to be a jerk to her for the rest of the day..


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

Just clicked your link...you got him a week after I got jack, So you've just had him a few weeks...I would give it more time and maybe keep sensitive areas separate/closed off for a while (crate, food, etc). 

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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

sarahebeth said:


> Just clicked your link...you got him a week after I got jack, So you've just had him a few weeks...I would give it more time and maybe keep sensitive areas separate/closed off for a while (crate, food, etc).
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk



okay thank you. Yeah, she definitely fights back... to the point I'm scared he will get hurt, and thus we can't keep her. I also of course care about her and don't want her stressed or hurt either... I just don't know at what point i say this isn't going to work no matter how much I want it to, ya know? I'll keep trying.


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

mrsjb said:


> okay thank you. Yeah, she definitely fights back... to the point I'm scared he will get hurt, and thus we can't keep her. I also of course care about her and don't want her stressed or hurt either... I just don't know at what point i say this isn't going to work no matter how much I want it to, ya know? I'll keep trying.


Ugh, yeah. I can see why you're concerned. My Jack gets annoyed with Teddy quickly and acts hateful, but Teddy doesn't fight back. That would be concerning. I'm sorry you're having these troubles. Maybe some other people here will have experience with something similar and have good advice.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

If puppy is truly aggressively fighting back (rather than being overly persistent in trying to play fight), I would say that you have a big problem on your hands, especially with the size difference. My Timi was a pushy puppy with my two older girls, but she would respond with appropriate appeasement behaviors to their admonishments, then go right back in to try to play again. My eldest who wanted none of the playing, I would have to protect her from the puppy nonsense, and never left Timi uncrated when I was not there until after she passed. But for a puppy to respond with true aggression to the older dog, that I would not have in my home! It would be really helpful if you could post some video showing the behavior.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

If Truffles truly is fighting, I would get a qualified trainer (positive reinforcement) or behaviorist in immediately to assess the situation. I don't like to see any dominance in a puppy and Maizie has always been submissive to the littles, no matter how nasty they've been to her. I really hope this is something that can be remedied, but of course you have to do what's best for both dogs.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

If you haven't already, I'd talk to my breeder about the problem, they might have some good ideas for you to try. Did the breeder pick your puppy for you as a suitable match with your present dog?


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

While you are waiting for things to calm down, I would institute "Nothing in Life is Free" for BOTH dogs. It shouldn't be a big deal to the pup since no patterns have really been established, but you stated that your older dog is spoiled so he may find it to be a bit of a change. Make sure all everyone in the house is on board. Just google the "Nothing in Life is Free" phrase and several links should pop up.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I find it odd that a 3 months old puppy would attack an older dog. Usually puppies need to be taught manners, they are not attacking, and the older dog would teach them. 

Is there any way you can post a video of these attacks ?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Charmed, I was about to mention that... beat me to the punch


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

Dechi said:


> I find it odd that a 3 months old puppy would attack an older dog. Usually puppies need to be taught manners, they are not attacking, and the older dog would teach them.
> 
> Is there any way you can post a video of these attacks ?



Yes, this weekend when my husband is home, and they get into it, I will record while he will separate. Then I'll have to figure out how to post. And let me be more clear... it isn't that she is just randomly attacking him. In fact, most of the time she puts up with his barking and nit picking at her. I think sometimes she just has enough and fights back, which turns into an attack. She's not aggressive by nature. In fact I just recorded them "playing" which usually consists of her hopping around trying to play with him and him barking her into a corner and occasionally running with her...maybe play nipping back at her as she does him. It's just these all of the sudden real actual attacks that have me concerned... they are probably brought on by him, but I still am worried he will get hurt. If he walks into her crate... that's usually what seems to be creating the attacks in the first place. She growls at him seriously and he goes to nip back and she isn't having it...so full on attack mode. Maybe he's just not fit to have a sibling?


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

Caddy said:


> If you haven't already, I'd talk to my breeder about the problem, they might have some good ideas for you to try. Did the breeder pick your puppy for you as a suitable match with your present dog?



I did call the breeder... she said as long as no blood is being drawn, I just need to continue to be assertive and show i'm the momma. She did not pick the puppy, we did. It was between two girls left and Truffles was a bit more calm


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

Charmed said:


> While you are waiting for things to calm down, I would institute "Nothing in Life is Free" for BOTH dogs. It shouldn't be a big deal to the pup since no patterns have really been established, but you stated that your older dog is spoiled so he may find it to be a bit of a change. Make sure all everyone in the house is on board. Just google the "Nothing in Life is Free" phrase and several links should pop up.


Thank you, I'm looking it up now.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Like someone else said I would consult a very highly qualified trainer (one who has studied behavior) or a behaviorist. I know the behaviorist can be difficult and expensive but it might be worth it. Aggression in a puppy is not something to mess with or ignore, it needs to be delt with ASAP. Talking to the breeder might also be another good idea. Ask them if any testing was done on the puppies when they were growing up and if so what she scored. My two girls will sometimes get into a scuffle about something, like Branna walked to close to Killa so Killa will snap at her, or one is eating to close to the other or is eating a chewy the other one wants. It's always just all show their teeth never make contact with each other. Actually causing damage to another animal or person should not be tolerated at all.


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Like someone else said I would consult a very highly qualified trainer (one who has studied behavior) or a behaviorist. I know the behaviorist can be difficult and expensive but it might be worth it. Aggression in a puppy is not something to mess with or ignore, it needs to be delt with ASAP. Talking to the breeder might also be another good idea. Ask them if any testing was done on the puppies when they were growing up and if so what she scored. My two girls will sometimes get into a scuffle about something, like Branna walked to close to Killa so Killa will snap at her, or one is eating to close to the other or is eating a chewy the other one wants. It's always just all show their teeth never make contact with each other. Actually causing damage to another animal or person should not be tolerated at all.



Yeah, that's what I'm worried about... I'm giving it until next week to see if these fights continue. Thank you so much for your reply!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It does sound as if he has no concept of the puppy licence - older dogs usually cut very young puppies some slack. I think you need a suitable qualified professional behaviourist to watch, analyse and advise. If your older dog is very used to his own space and his own way he may simply not want another dog invading his home and taking up the attention of his people. In the meantime I would establish safe spaces where each dog can avoid the other (baby gates may help with this), supervise all times when they are together closely and intervene before either reaches snapping point, and start a programme to convince your peekapoo that having a puppy in the house is the Best Thing Ever. Make her appearance in the room a reliable cue for whatever food or game he likes best; if he allows her near without reacting praise him to the skies and shower rewards; make time to do all his favourite things with just him; play lots of turn taking games, where each dog is rewarded for politely waiting for their name to be called. Don't let the puppy tease him - call her away for a fun game with one of you instead. It is very easy for a new puppy to become the centre of focus - I think if you really focus on managing the relationship between the two dogs, rewarding what you like and distracting from what you don't, you should see a considerable improvement.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

mrsjb said:


> Yes, this weekend when my husband is home, and they get into it, I will record while he will separate. Then I'll have to figure out how to post. And let me be more clear... it isn't that she is just randomly attacking him. In fact, most of the time she puts up with his barking and nit picking at her. I think sometimes she just has enough and fights back, which turns into an attack. She's not aggressive by nature. In fact I just recorded them "playing" which usually consists of her hopping around trying to play with him and him barking her into a corner and occasionally running with her...maybe play nipping back at her as she does him. It's just these all of the sudden real actual attacks that have me concerned... they are probably brought on by him, but I still am worried he will get hurt. If he walks into her crate... that's usually what seems to be creating the attacks in the first place. She growls at him seriously and he goes to nip back and she isn't having it...so full on attack mode. Maybe he's just not fit to have a sibling?



I have NEVER had a puppy who would fight back to an older dog's admonishments. And start a fight (you said that she fights when he goes to her crate, correct?), never. I did once have a puppy who was a strong alpha, but fortunately they were, or would be the same size and the older dog willingly allowed her to be in charge.
But from what you are describing so far, it doesn't sound like it is your older dog at old, it is the puppy who isn't following the rules of appropriate dog behavior. He would probably be fine with a different puppy. She however probably needs to be an only dog, or with a submissive dog her own size.


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

fjm said:


> It does sound as if he has no concept of the puppy licence - older dogs usually cut very young puppies some slack. I think you need a suitable qualified professional behaviourist to watch, analyse and advise. If your older dog is very used to his own space and his own way he may simply not want another dog invading his home and taking up the attention of his people. In the meantime I would establish safe spaces where each dog can avoid the other (baby gates may help with this), supervise all times when they are together closely and intervene before either reaches snapping point, and start a programme to convince your peekapoo that having a puppy in the house is the Best Thing Ever. Make her appearance in the room a reliable cue for whatever food or game he likes best; if he allows her near without reacting praise him to the skies and shower rewards; make time to do all his favourite things with just him; play lots of turn taking games, where each dog is rewarded for politely waiting for their name to be called. Don't let the puppy tease him - call her away for a fun game with one of you instead. It is very easy for a new puppy to become the centre of focus - I think if you really focus on managing the relationship between the two dogs, rewarding what you like and distracting from what you don't, you should see a considerable improvement.


Thank you very much!!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I have had 2 puppies that terrorized and bit my older nonaggressive dogs. I did not have to separate fights, but I had to control interaction between the puppy and older dogs at ALL times. This means using leashes to tether the puppy to me, using baby gates to separate the puppy from the older dogs, and training them to sit or lie down next to each other and be rewarded with treats.

Some people just say, let them work it out. I say, none of my dogs is going to hurt the other ones. That takes you restricting their movements.

It took 5 or 6 months before I saw a big improvement in how Dakota treated the other dogs. I had Dakota on an extendable leash to play with Neeka so that I could stop Dakota when he got aggressive and allow Neeka to get away from him.

At about 9-10 months things got easier. I could leave all 3 dogs alone for short times while I went outside to do gardening. I still crate Dakota when I leave the house.

I wanted a playful laid back puppy. I got a playful people oriented puppy who probably would have enjoyed being an only dog. But now at just over a year, Dakota has calmed down a lot and life is SO much easier.

So if you keep your puppy, you need to restrict interaction using leashes and baby gates and also do obedience training on BOTH dogs. It will get better but maybe not for months.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I would like to add that when we first started getting dogs, our first dog from the humane society was a little dog aggressive. So when we got our minipoodle, we had to keep the dog aggressive lab mix on a leash or separate the 2 with baby gates. In time they learned to get along and the minipoodle won over the lab mix.

You have to consider the personalities of your two dogs. If they are both just trying to be top dog, in time they will get along. You just need to control the situation and know it will take training and time.

If one of the two dogs is truly dog aggressive, then you might need to rehome the puppy, but I would not give up until I gave them a chance to get used to one another in a safe controlled environment.


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I have NEVER had a puppy who would fight back to an older dog's admonishments. And start a fight (you said that she fights when he goes to her crate, correct?), never. I did once have a puppy who was a strong alpha, but fortunately they were, or would be the same size and the older dog willingly allowed her to be in charge.
> But from what you are describing so far, it doesn't sound like it is your older dog at old, it is the puppy who isn't following the rules of appropriate dog behavior. He would probably be fine with a different puppy. She however probably needs to be an only dog, or with a submissive dog her own size.



Ohh I see... yes, when he goes into her crate after she's left it, she'll attack him from behind, getting on his back. That worries me a lot. Most other times they are fine....


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I'm also interested to see a video of the fight to see what's happening, but to me it sounds a lot like resource guarding. I'm curious - do you feed her in her crate? I do agree that a behaviorist is probably a good idea, but it may be something that you can work on, especially since she's still very young. 

My parents have a dog that was a very bad resource guarder. He would attack other dogs over food (or empty food bowls), people (attention), and walkways. He really has improved a lot though. It took (and still takes) work but it can be done. The real question may be, do you want to do that or would you rather have a puppy that is automatically better suited to your household?


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## mrsjb (Feb 4, 2016)

FireStorm said:


> I'm also interested to see a video of the fight to see what's happening, but to me it sounds a lot like resource guarding. I'm curious - do you feed her in her crate? I do agree that a behaviorist is probably a good idea, but it may be something that you can work on, especially since she's still very young.
> 
> My parents have a dog that was a very bad resource guarder. He would attack other dogs over food (or empty food bowls), people (attention), and walkways. He really has improved a lot though. It took (and still takes) work but it can be done. The real question may be, do you want to do that or would you rather have a puppy that is automatically better suited to your household?



Yes I feed her in her crate. A bigger one than the smaller one she sleeps in however. A couple of fights have happened from him getting too close to her while she's drinking water... I'm wondering if she would be better suited with a breed more her size and strength...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

mrsjb said:


> Ohh I see... yes, when he goes into her crate after she's left it, she'll attack him from behind, getting on his back. That worries me a lot. Most other times they are fine....



That sounds like some extreme resource guarding for a puppy. I have honestly never tried to stop resource guarding amongst dogs, but I have never had a dog who would take it to the level of making contact, it is normally just a display, and the other dog acquiesces to it, and that is the end of it. Maybe it is something that could be worked on with the assistance of a behaviorist, but because of the size difference between them, if it were me, I would feel it was too dangerous. I would return the puppy to the breeder, and try again for a better match with a softer dog. This girl can become a great dog in someone else's home, and your family can have a Spoo puppy that would work at great. This is just a bad match ?
And honestly, this should be a fun happy time in your life - the new puppy experience shouldn't be an extreme behavior modification situation for the whole family - that is not what you signed on for!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

mrsjb said:


> Yes I feed her in her crate. A bigger one than the smaller one she sleeps in however. A couple of fights have happened from him getting too close to her while she's drinking water... I'm wondering if she would be better suited with a breed more her size and strength...



She would probably be best in a one dog household, with an experienced owner who would know how to avoid her guarding being transferred to humans. Nobody wants their large dogs "battling to the death" over resources either.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh this situation reminds me of a story that I heard years ago. A Spoo breeder, who kept one Toy for a pet - the toy walked past an empty food bowl, a Spoo charged her, didn't even bite, but rammed her so hard that her neck was broken and she died instantly. 
Maybe your boy is a little bigger than a toy, but still you cannot ignore that there will be a big size difference - that really needs to be a factor in your decision.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Until you decide whether or not you will keep your spoo puppy, I hope you will keep her on a leash or separate from your older dog so that neither one is injured.

I think my problem with Dakota is territorialism and also resource guarding. I do not think it is dog aggressiveness, per se. A lot of that resolved with time and training, but he still sometimes claims the backyard and will charge Neeka if she goes out second. If Neeka were a smaller dog, that could be a problem.

If you get another poodle, you might want to consider a mini which would be more equal in size to your older dog.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I am not a behaviorist or a professional dog trainer, but it really does sound like resource guarding to me. If it is, whoever ends up with this puppy will have to address it, IMO, because having two big dogs who want to fight over things is no fun. I've been there, and it has to be worked out. 

If you do want to try to keep Truffles and work on the behavior (and I think that's a personal decision you'll have to make - I don't think either answer is right or wrong) this is what I would do. I would create a training scenario where every time your other dog gets near something that Truffles would like to guard, Truffles gets something super, super awesome. For example, your other dog goes in Truffles' crate, Truffles gets a super awesome, amazing reward. Every time the other dog goes out of the crate, the rewards stop. You might have to start with the other dog just going near the crate, and of course Truffles will have to be on a leash and you'll need two people. The rest of the time (outside the training scenario, you'll have to find a way to keep the guarding from happening - i.e. keep the other dog away from the crate). I'm trying to find an article that explains the exercise really well in depth, but if I can't I'll type it up later when I have more time. 

In the mean time, here is an article that I think is good, although not specific to dog on dog resource guarding. It will still give you some idea of what you are dealing with.
Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Ah, here's the dog on dog resource guarding article I was looking for:Resource Guarding, Dog to Dog


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope this can be resolved. I want to take the side of the curious puppy, faced with a spoiled senior 1/2 of whose heritage is bred to bite. I hope with patience, some of the techniques mentioned and time the two can live in harmony. They may never be besties, but plenty of SPOO's live with cats on the forum, so I'm hopeful.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I too think this is just a cranky old dog who does not want to be bothered at times, and said puppy( KEY WORD: 'PUPPY') is just that, a Puppy! Pekes are notorious for being impatient and are not tolerant at all! 
I personally would baby gate and separate and start some training! Resource guarding is common with puppies from large litters so new owners should start the 'hand feeding' and 'trade me' training routine when resource guarding persists.
Older dog should not be allowed access to puppies bowl or sleeping crate (crate is puppies 'safe place' and should remain so!)
It all sounds like a puppy land shark has arrived! Truffles is only 12 weeks old and is still learning the ropes.
Like I said baby gate and separate and only allow short play times where you are supervising...........I only am giving you what I have learned in 50+ years of owning large breed dogs!!! Good Luck with your playful baby!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Dechi said:


> I find it odd that a 3 months old puppy would attack an older dog. Usually puppies need to be taught manners, they are not attacking, and the older dog would teach them.
> 
> Is there any way you can post a video of these attacks ?



I haven't read any further yet than this post, but I have to say that I totally agree with Deci. Puppies are like children, and they need to learn to play nicely. While it's possible that the puppy is aggressive, I don't think it's necessarily aggression that is the problem with your dog, but more like play fighting. Does the puppy growl and show its teeth and lunge at the older dog? I think THAT would be a clear sign of aggression.


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## KrisB (Feb 6, 2015)

I have not had time to read the replies to your original post. But I would contact a qualified trainer ASAP! (And your breeder too)
She is in critical learning stages right now and it is very important that you set them both up for success. 

http://brendaaloff.com/training/behaviour-consults
Brenda's training center is about an hour and a half away from Lansing. If she's too far she should be able to refer you to a trainer in your area. 

In the meantime. Don't allow them to get into a situation that will lead to a fight.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

zooeysmom said:


> If Truffles truly is fighting, I would get a qualified trainer (positive reinforcement) or behaviorist in immediately to assess the situation. I don't like to see any dominance in a puppy and Maizie has always been submissive to the littles, no matter how nasty they've been to her. I really hope this is something that can be remedied, but of course you have to do what's best for both dogs.


I agree that you need an assessment of your spoo. If your spoo is anything like Piper, I would say that situation is going to be very hard. Piper was the dominant in her litter of 11 and that is her personality and very hard to change. I don't even know if it is possible. That's for a new thread.

pr


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

How big was the litter? Is there a chance that your pup didn't have enough litter mates to learn some of the social graces from? The answers won't change what is happening but could provide insight about what to do.

Yes to physical separation, yes to NILIF, yes to working on resource guarding and a good evaluation with a behaviorist or a trainer who at least has a CPDT-KA certification and yes to Brenda Aloff techniques. She has a specific book on dealing with puppies.


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

First of all let me say that I am NOT a dog trainer. I have never shown an obedience dog, though I've done some obedience work. My current dogs (all Scotties) are very mannerly, but untrained...they don't sit, down or stay. They do (mostly) come. However, I've raised many pups and I've introduced many pups to existing household adults. 

IMO, It really doesn't matter much why this discord is happening. You just have to deal with it as it is. First of all, separate them. Give that pup some rights to her own space. She needs an x-pen with her crate and water bowl inside. The other crate needs to be shut when she's not in it (with the door shut) so the older dog can't go in. The x-pen should be in an area where they can see each other. Give them a chance to get used to the fact that they both live there. You may need this set-up for a couple of weeks, or a couple of months.

What is needed here is guidance and leadership. You are the one that gets to call the shots on what kind of behavior between them is acceptable. You need to control all of their interactions. Until they get the idea, you have to put them in win/win situations....no loose dogs together in the house with open crate doors for one thing.

Some training for both dogs and owners would be good...lots of info on the internet! Rehoming the puppy is a pretty drastic solution to a pretty simple problem. It's just learning house manners. If I have trained Scottish Terriers to leave my cat alone, you can do this!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Wonderful advice sidewinder!


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