# Need opinions on a breeder!



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Thanks to everyone who has sent me PMs, I really wish there was a list or something of "good" breeders who leave tails natural... it sure has made this whole puppy search more difficult! I wish I wasn't so stubborn about the darn tail, but after being on here and seeing all the pretty tails from european dogs I've really fallen for the look. Oh yeah, and I forgot the add... I want a dog with low COI, no line breeding. Keep the ideas comin!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If you would be forgiving of the tail...Rayah, another member here, has a gorgeous litter of browns and blacks available. Their COI is VERY low, their sire is my boy Quincy, who is a CDN. CH., and also has his CGN. The puppies are super socialized and have remarkable temperaments. There is no line breeding in these babies! Parents were tested for OFFA hips (his excellent, hers good), elbows- normal, cardiac- normal, S/A- normal, Cerf- (eyes)- normal, both are clear of vWd and NE and the dam is clear of RD.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If you would be forgiving of the tail...Rayah, another member here, has a gorgeous litter of browns and blacks available. Their COI is VERY low, their sire is my boy Quincy, who is a CDN. CH., and also has his CGN. The puppies are super socialized and have remarkable temperaments. There is no line breeding in these babies! Parents were tested for OFFA hips (his excellent, hers good), elbows- normal, cardiac- normal, S/A- normal, Cerf- (eyes)- normal, both are clear of vWd and NE and the dam is clear of RD.


Thanks for the info! I'll keep it in mind if I decide to give up on the tail  I think I would be happy with an Autumn Shades puppy, I'm just curious what other people think about their conformation and what not. I'm not very good at seeing it for myself, but if someone else points something out then it clicks in my brain lol


----------



## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

It's very hard to determine conformation from photos of dogs sitting.

And the conformation of your pup is not going to necessarily be the best of either parent, or one parent more than the other.

When we (breeders) plan a breeding, in theory, we are selecting a dog that will improve the attributes of our bitch, or at least compliment. (Refraining from a tangent on breeding practices for you! :angel2: )

We have hopes we will be getting the best of each but the reality is, if the breeding is not a line breeding (and sometimes even if it is) the pups are not going to be carbon copies of each other. If the breeding is an outcross, even a repeat of an outcross, the pups are likely to be some that look like mom and some that look like dad and some a mismash of each parent (again hopefully the best of each parent, but we have no guarantees).

For your puppy, your breeder, and I hope you have chosen a great one, should have already evaluated the litter a couple of times by 9 weeks - for both conformation and temperment.

Unless you have stacked photos of closely scissored or wet pups....there isn't a lot we can tell you from photos.


Best Wishes!


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't know Autumn Shades at all, but it sounds like they are breeding poodles primarily for hunting. Are you sure you want a poodle from a performance breeder? You said you wanted "medium" energy.

I also do not know Karbit Poodles personally but several people on this forum have recommended this breeder in the past and they leave tails natural: 

Home


----------



## bookwormjane (Dec 18, 2011)

As to undocked tails, when I was looking for a spoo, I found a breeder who would leave a tail undocked if the full price of the puppy was paid up front. Don't remember who it was, though.

As to confirmation, that can be a crap shoot. Even a puppy that shows lots of promise as a little one can grow up lacking development in a certain area. My other breed male, whose father was a national specialty winner, never got chest development, and I gave up trying to finish him after a time.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Thanks again everyone for the replies! I've bounced around a lot between looking at different breeders. I looked into the Karbit dogs, a lady I used to do agility with has one, and she is TINY! Very very high energy! I actually asked about her dogs on a grooming forum and did not hear the feedback I wanted... which lead me to look further. 
If any of you guys are on the standard poodle group on facebook, the mod's "Elsa" is from Autumn Shades. I think that's how I originally heard about them, and started looking at more hunting type breeders who are more likely to leave the tails on. I am currently on the wait list for a puppy from Autumn Shades due in November, I have not put down a deposit so things are not completely set in stone. I think I'd be happy with one of their dogs, but adding a new dog to our family is a huge deal, I've been wanting a poodle for years so I want to make sure I get one that will fulfill my expectations! I'm open to contacting other breeders closer to me and seeing if they will leave tails on, but what happens if I pick one that isn't a good fit for me? At least with the Autumn Shades puppies they don't determine who gets what puppy until they've had temperament testing at 7 weeks. 
Thanks again for the input everyone!


----------



## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

brownlikewoah said:


> I am a pro groomer and want a dog I can use for grooming competitions, but is also smart enough to do agility if I wanted... here is other criteria I'm looking for
> -female -natural undocked tail -excellent conformation -every health test passed under the moon -not black or brown -medium energy, okay with going on hikes but can also chill at home for a day without activity without going completely insane.


I'm surprised you want a natural tail for grooming competitions, wouldn't that unbalance a whole bunch of traditional clips?

I'm a huge fan of the natural tails though, my Syd's got hers.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

taem said:


> I'm surprised you want a natural tail for grooming competitions, wouldn't that unbalance a whole bunch of traditional clips?
> 
> I'm a huge fan of the natural tails though, my Syd's got hers.


Yes, I know it's weird. Some argue that it will make haircuts look unbalanced, to me they look whole though. How can people say the dog looks unbalanced or wrong with what nature gave them? I realize I will be fighting an uphill battle, but, I love the look after seeing all the european dogs on here, and I believe tail docking will be banned here in the US too in the next few years, so I'll be ahead of the game! lol. I'm a hippie and like things the way nature intended them. Ironic that I currently own a docked Aussie haha


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

It's possible that docking will banned here eventually, but I don't think it will be any time soon.

I also like an undocked tail when it's straight. I'm not a fan of gay tails, though. Would it be OK if you puppy had a long tail that curled over the back?

I can understand wanting specific things in a poodle, after all, I really wanted a black poodle. Wanting an undocked tail does limit your options though.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Keep in mind that most, not all, natural tails are over the back. Some tightly curled, some not so much. It is a rare poodle with a full tail that has it straight because that isn't something anyone has worried about (they were always docked to get rid of the curl). That may effect your grooms, but a full tail can be very nice like a big plume.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Yes, I've seen plenty of pictures of wacky natural tails and I'm prepared to accept the styling challenges lol... I'll take that any day over a bad dock job. I have several groom clients who have terrible docking jobs, bone sticking out of the end, constantly chewing on them from phantom pains... I'd just rather not go there!


----------



## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> I also like an undocked tail when it's straight. I'm not a fan of gay tails, though. Would it be OK if you puppy had a long tail that curled over the back?


My Syd has about as gay a tail as you can get, a really tight curl, and I have nothing against it per se, but she also has a lot of hair and you can't even see her tail from any distance, just blends right into her coat. It also pushes her hair down where it curls in so when her tail droops you see an indentation in her coat.

It's wonderfully expressive, her tail, she's able to show degrees of alarm and dismay, and I definitely want the tail for my next poodle as well, but in terms of grooming and aesthetic presentation, it's definitely limiting, and, I fully get why many folks don't like the gay tail.

Btw Syd doesn't really use her tail like other dogs do. I don't know if that's just her or poodles. She uses it to express her own moods rather than to send signals. Her tail will droop if I offer her turkey; it will wag furiously if she smells gopher. But she never wags it at other dogs, not even her best friends.


----------



## Dog catcher (May 27, 2012)

If you want a poodle with a full tail, wait until you find one. They are out there and in the color you are looking for. The first time I ever saw a poodle with a natural tail was when I first saw Fang. Fang is very expressive with her tail. It is almost painful to see dogs with short docked tails attempt to wag their emotions.

Further, as more people request natural tails breeders will respond to the demand.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Thanks for the support, Dog Catcher! What breeder did you get Fang from?
I emailed a few traditional conformation show type breeders to see if any are willing to leave tails on and at least look further in that direction, doesn't hurt to look! I'm soooo excited about getting a puppy in the future, I've been wanting one for so long!


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

The proble with a breeder leaving a tail on a puppy just for you- means that at 2-3 days that puppy has to be chosen. Which means you don't get an accurate choice from the breeder in what you need- you can't tell much at 2 days old! 

Silkens leaves tails on. She is who i gotmy phantom from. Decent breeder. Bella mygirl is possibly going to be used by a friend who grooms for some competitions next year- full tail and all. 

Personally i dislike her full tail-it really throws offthe look- pom pom tail? try again. Docking will notbe banned anytime soon- IN canada it'sbanned in several provinces FOR VETS. It will still be done. (I breed aussies so it's always on my radar) 
IF i was looking for competition grooming - id want temperament, coat quality and conformation.


----------



## Dog catcher (May 27, 2012)

brownlikewoah said:


> Thanks for the support, Dog Catcher! What breeder did you get Fang from?
> I emailed a few traditional conformation show type breeders to see if any are willing to leave tails on and at least look further in that direction, doesn't hurt to look! I'm soooo excited about getting a puppy in the future, I've been wanting one for so long!


Look at Adonai Red Poodles. She has some beautiful Kliens and does not lop off their tails.


----------

