# Natural Tails



## caboodles (Jan 7, 2011)

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU!!

My two standards have beautiful full tails and I just LOVE them!
It's SOOOO nice to have the entire thing wag when they see you.. and their entire body literally shakes!! It's pretty funny! But otherwise than the "HAPPY TAILS".. they are just so indicative of HOW the dog is feeling.. scared.. ready to pounce on my cats or not... The tail just says SO much in such little movement or direction. I LOVE IT!!

You'll soon see what I mean when you find your full-tailed friend, and wish you all the best of luck!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Welcome to the forum! You will be able to find a breeder in most of the colours that does not dock. And there are lots of those breeders who do other things right too. I think it is very important to have a list of priorities ready, so you are certain to find a breeder who not only leaves natural tails on their pups, but also researches the pedigrees of the dogs they breed, does health testing, doesn't breed until two years of age, has a limited number of dogs on their premises....Please, for your own sake, don't make an undocked tail your priority. With careful research, it is possible to find a breeder who does all those things as well as selling their pups with natural tails.


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## WannaSpoo (Apr 2, 2011)

Oh yes I am with you all the way, the non docked tail isn't the only thing on my list..

I want to make sure they are an excellent breeder, does all the genetic testing, great temperments, conformation, etc. etc. but the tail is just 
"another" one of my requirements 

I do hope I can find that special Spoo


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

You will find that Special Spoo! Our first Spoo had a natural tail and I loved it ... our new guy has a docked tail (a bit on the long side I think) and I love him. I chose for breeder, testing and temperment this time. He is a very calm, good natured 5 month old, and with time I'm sure he will be an excellent therapy dog. So good luck and happy hunting


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Seems to me like you will have to go to Canada to find one as it's not required to show there as it is in the US. They dock them when they are just a few days old so a breeder, here, likely wouldn't yet know which will be show puppies, nor even which puppy is "your" puppy to leave it's tail undocked.

And I am with you. I feel bad everytime I touch the tip of her tail.


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## WannaSpoo (Apr 2, 2011)

Thx Bella's Mama

at least I have that going for me, I am from Canada 
Its not even legal to dock tails/crop ears in my Province.

but sadly there are no Spoo breeders here that I have found yet

but I will find one  somewhere 

I so miss having dogs


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Actually, I believe (please correct me if I am wrong) you can show poodles with natural tails in the US it just isn't commonly done. I think Kerry's Leila, whom she will be showing, has a natural tail as she came from out of the United States, possibly from a country where tail docking is not aloowed. 

There are some breeders in the US who don't dock any tails in their litters, although many of these breeders probably (though there could be exceptions) won't be showing their poodles in AKC conformation because of the judge bias toward docked tails. There are some breeders who will leave some tails undocked and dock others. This can be a challenge because it is difficult if not impossible to differentiate a show quality pup from pet quality by three days of age. 

Good luck with your search and I know you will find a wonderful breeder who breeds poodles with au naturale tails!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I think ChocolateMillie pretty much covered it all.

We will be having a litter very soon, but we will be docking the tails. We are in the US and will show AKC. As CM said, it is impossible to tell at three days of age which puppies will be show quality and which will not. 

It's nice that you live in Canada where you don't have to concern yourself with that. I am sure you will find just the right breeder for you with puppies with full, natural tails! I envy you. Happy puppy hunting.

Hopefully, someday in the future, the poodle will be shown with its full and glorious natural tail here._


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## macker905 (Mar 21, 2010)

Hi WannaSpoo
I am from Canada as well, and I have 2 beautiful standard girls with natural tails. At first we wanted their tails docked, and we were 'talked out of it', and I must admit I am glad we were. 
Summer & CLeo's tail's are beautiful, Summer's is especially long and silky and shiny, and they both wag their lovely tails all the time. From a distance that is how I tell them apart, Cleo's is more curly.
Where in Canada are you located??


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i love undocked tails. my spoo has a docked tail, but i have a fantasy of my next spoo having an undocked tail (hint hint, cherie  )


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'll add about showing with natural tails...

All of the dogs that I have seen in person with a natural tail at the shows were never put up...not even a reserve...I think its common practice for North American judges to just over look them because of the natural tail

And I'll pass on the information given to me by a respected breeder I visit often, he said that a low tail set on a docked tail would be considered a "good" tail set on an undocked tail...so if you think about all the European dogs winning over there with subpar tail sets that might be bred to dogs over here with low tail sets...:afraid: (oh and thats not always the case, I have seen a few dogs with amazing back ends, awesome angulation, great tail carriage, and fantastic tail set in Europe...its just the general rule that they tend to sit lower on most of the dogs)
while I like the look of natural tails (in some cases...in others its to pugish blech) I think it will be quite sometime before dogs with natural tails actually start winning big here in the states

but for a pet I wouldn't mind having a nature tail lol xD


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I'll add about showing with natural tails...
> 
> All of the dogs that I have seen in person with a natural tail at the shows were never put up...not even a reserve...I think its common practice for North American judges to just over look them because of the natural tail
> 
> ...


Yes...we know that is not always the case because Quincy's tail is undocked, he carries it as if it is undocked, and his tail set is good. In all of this, he is just like is Dad, whose tail is also undocked.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

faerie said:


> i love undocked tails. my spoo has a docked tail, but i have a fantasy of my next spoo having an undocked tail (hint hint, cherie  )


LOL!!! I promise...I will try so hard to be ready to leave them undocked by then!!!


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## Turtles (Jul 11, 2010)

My spoo is also undocked and I love it! We had him at a party one time and one of the guests called it a "candy cane tail" Haha!! Guess it helped that it was near christmas time, but I thought it was cute!


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## northerndancer (Jan 27, 2011)

I am under the impression that there is a "movement" towards undocked. Probably consistent with a general tendency not to interfere with what is natural unless there is a reason. I believe the standard in Europe is not to dock and some North American breeders are now not docking. As is the case with any change it will take time and may go around in a circle again. 

Daisy was not docked and I'm glad I didn't have a choice.


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

I love a natural tail. I don't think it takes away from the "look" of the dog at all. They really do go into full body wag with that big swishy tail. Adorable!


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## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

When Carole's last litter was born I told her that we wanted to have our puppy's tail docked. Despite the problem of choosing which puppy was right for us at 3 days old, Carole leaned very heavily on us not to dock the tail. After much consideration, we agreed to an undocked tail. I can't even imagine Lincoln now without his entire tail. So much of his personality is reflected by his tail--his excitement, his graceful prance. It would have been a huge mistake to dock his tail. So, I am so grateful for a breeder like Carole who leans when leaning is necessary, and is so knowledgable. This is exactly why the selecting of a breeder, in my opinion, is crucial. Your breeder defines your dog. It's just that simple.


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

Our first dog Gorky had a long docked tail. After reading lots of literature and the fact that docked tails were banned in Europe, my husband and I were searching for a breeder who did not dock tails. Carole was such a breeder. In reading, we became more and more aware that the tail was part of the spine so development is impeded without part of the tail. Also communication with other dogs is impaired. Carole pointed out to me that when a dog has their full tail they develop earlier. This definitely seems to be the case with Lichen. His tail is so beautiful and seems to dance, float, show enthusiam and every other kind of nuance of expression. I could equate the full tail with our expressive human hand.

Lichen has his dew claws and this seems to aid him in holding objects and running.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I am wondering if there is a tendency for dogs with undocked tails to have tails that curl over their backs like my Shih-tzus. There is a standard in Lucy's class and her tail curls right over her back in almost a circle. I think that it is not very attractive in a poodle. Its OK in a Shih-tzu or a pug - but not a poodle. If a puppy is born with a straight tail - like Quincy's - will it stay straight as the puppy grows up?


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## tenortime (Aug 25, 2010)

Lincoln's tail curls over his back. I suppose that this could make a difference if we were showing him--but we're not. It doesn't bother me at all.


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

Purley, it is only what you are used to. If more spoos had full tails then people would have acceptance in the carriage of a full tail curled or otherwise.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

My last Spoo was a black with a full tail. His tail was straight as a puppy and remained that way for his whole life. So I would guess that would be the same in your pup's case. And I have never seen a Spoo with a curled tail  I don't believe it would be attractive.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I agree. Even if I got used to it - I don't think I personally would like a curled tail. Quincy has a natural tail but its not curled over his back. Even if I got a pet with no intention of showing it -- I still wouldn't like a curled tail.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Heck - Millie's tail is docked and she still carries it over her back when she is happy or excited!


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## northerndancer (Jan 27, 2011)

Daisy's tail curls up over her back most of the time and when it wags, her whole back end wags.  When she is apprehensive about something, it tends to drop down. I love that her tail is such an integral part of her moods.

She is only four months old so I don't know what it will be like when she is fully grown.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Purley said:


> I agree. Even if I got used to it - I don't think I personally would like a curled tail. Quincy has a natural tail but its not curled over his back. Even if I got a pet with no intention of showing it -- I still wouldn't like a curled tail.


Quincy and Flynn's tails are both incredible and both natural. Thinker's on the other hand was docked and was horrible! Curled right over his back constantly and ruined the way he looked in my opinion. I cannot stand the look of an undocked tail if it is curled over their back.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

I have such mixed feelings about docking.. Ear cropping.. well I love the look of dogs with cropped ears but would never do it. I have seen some terrible results and know what an ordeal it is and can imagine it would be pretty painful. Docking tails.. Again.. i love the look of Docked tails on some breeds and Poodles are one. Especially ones in Show type clips. I used to groom a lot with long tails and liked them with a pet clip but the hair was usually sparse and stringy looking . I guess they would sort of look like PWDs tails... Guess I need to read more about the negatives.. obviously it is not all about looks. I love Hoolies and Tizzys docked tails but am glad they arent really short... I hate that worse than long for sure.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

My pet peeve is a docked tail that is too short. Can't do anything with it. I have 2 poo's a rescue & a new addition that we got last week. I find our Spoo with too short a dock not very attractive & would have loved his long tail esp. since his tail set is low & his tail doesn't go up. Our Mini it sticks straight up but I think again too short so I just hide it with extra hair at the tip & it looks so much better.

What is up with the short docks. Isn't there a way to have a sheet to take to the vet so they do a proper or even a long dock if one must get it done. I just hate these all too common short docks.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

3dogs said:


> My pet peeve is a docked tail that is too short. Can't do anything with it. I have 2 poo's a rescue & a new addition that we got last week. I find our Spoo with too short a dock not very attractive & would have loved his long tail esp. since his tail set is low & his tail doesn't go up. Our Mini it sticks straight up but I think again too short so I just hide it with extra hair at the tip & it looks so much better.
> 
> What is up with the short docks. Isn't there a way to have a sheet to take to the vet so they do a proper or even a long dock if one must get it done. I just hate these all too common short docks.


BLECH!!!! ME TOO! We call them chicken nuggets!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I didn't know so many of you had poodles with natural tails. I would love to experience that. 

I watched our one-day-old pups nursing this afternoon, and some of them already were wagging their little tails. It looks so natural and right. And, as some of you have said, it is how they communicate, so it is a shame that we take some of that away from them.

I hope that the trend in the US continues to move toward undocked tails and becomes unpopular. Hopefully, some day the standard will be changed._


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Sisko's tail is undocked and he has dew claws. His tail is amazing and he is very aware of it. When you touch it, it responds flicks and moves. It is a living part of him. He used to hate having it groomed - it is very sensitive. It curls up over his back when he's happy and hangs straight when he eats or is watchful.
Sisko is a Canadian from BC. His breeder health tests, has low coefficients of inbreeding, doesn't breed until dogs are health tested and over 2 and retires them young to live with the families they've grown up with. She doesn't show and I don't think her poodles ever wear a cc - she is interested in search and rescue and other kinds of work. She has been criticized in this forum in years past, following an internet link to a thread with her name brought me to this forum but I'd have another of her spoos any day.


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## McKay (Feb 19, 2011)

The breeder told me that Andy's tail had a kink in it when he was born. They had to dock it short. The rest of his litter all had much longer docks. 

We think it is adorable.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I think I know who you are talking about Siskojan. I wrote to that woman when I was first looking for a dog. If its the same one, they live in the interior somewhere miles from anywhere. Anyway, she never answered my emails.


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## DorothyB (Apr 10, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> I'll add about showing with natural tails...
> 
> All of the dogs that I have seen in person with a natural tail at the shows were never put up...not even a reserve...I think its common practice for North American judges to just over look them because of the natural tail xD


According to the AKC standard, "Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline. Major fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back."

So an undocked tail would be a disqualification, not necessarily a sign of judgmental prejudice.

I have to admit ignorance here -- I never knew Poodle tails were docked. And I checked Parker's and his was, which makes me sad. There's no reason for it except for human vanity.


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