# The Guardian (request by ForWantofaPoodle)



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

This question has plagued my research for a while--what is the difference between all the German Shepherd Dog lines? Is it true that the West German Show lines can also serve as working dogs, albeit ones with an easier "off" button? I see Czech working lines being name dropped a lot--are those more for police/military work? Can and should the German show and working lines be registered as AKC/UKC when being bred in the U.S., or is that against the club in Germany? 

Well, I guess that was more like questions than question... 🤣


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Thanks dogsavvy!
(Trying to write a longer reply but my phone hates PF today, and tries to escape everytime I backspace a mistake)


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

> Floofy Poodle
> This question has plagued my research for a while--what is the difference between all the German Shepherd Dog lines? Is it true that the West German Show lines can also serve as working dogs, albeit ones with an easier "off" button? I see Czech working lines being name dropped a lot--are those more for police/military work? Can and should the German show and working lines be registered as AKC/UKC when being bred in the U.S., or is that against the club in Germany?
> 
> Well, I guess that was more like questions than question...


I have never found anything that I was eager to work with in the West German Show lines. I have no doubt that at one time this was not the case but it's been a rare few dogs from those lines (& I certainly haven't tested them all) that I found to have the right temperament but generally when they do there is something off in the confirmation that makes them ineligible for long term work. Yes, for 20+ years those in working circles have been name dropping from the Czech lines. You'll find a lot of sables in those bloodlines. There is a fine line between a dog flipping the switch & turning on the heat vs a dog who is spun out & can't throttle back & chill. For some time I was the person who evaluated dogs before they were acquired for employment. Sometimes when they talk about the lines being hot...hot...hot... the truth is the dogs are spun out & nuts...nuts...nuts. So unless you want to live in a pecan pie, you have to find a dog that's bred to be on the balance point.

The balance point is where the dog is on the sword blade's edge. Not attacking everything that comes along however ready to meet aggression with aggression should an attack occur. And to be on the balance point, never more one than the other (not ready for war all the time & not ready for the couch all the time thus being balanced) But for want of a more extreme hitting dog, or dogs who are just on fire all the time they ended up with something no sane person wants to live with. I have put many of these poor dogs to work in foreign lands where dogs are used as estate guardians where it's not illegal for a dog to severely damage poachers/trespassers.

For me personally, it's been a very long time since I've been able to recommend a breeder or a litter or a line of German Shepherds. I stopped actively seeking on years ago for myself. I am NOT ever saying they're not out there. I did evaluations of dogs potentially being acquired for various types of jobs for clients. Dobermans & German Shepherds became harder & harder to find that were the complete package: temperament, mental stability, proper level/right type of aggression, health, etc..

As for if they should be registered AKC/UKC that's not my department but it was easy enough to get dogs registered through both clubs if you wanted to, so long as you had the proper paperwork.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Edit later


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

@dogsavvy yeah, good Dobermans and German Shepherds are very hard to come by. The good breeders are the ones who breed for the dog to have an off switch too. Have you heard of Carmspack German Shepherds? She has been breeding for 40 years and knows what she is talking about, and does health testing. My next dog will be a German Shepherd from her.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I should have started with how to pick a breed. But I started with breeder. So we'll back up for just a second.

Breed is largely a matter of preference but it's also a matter of what you can find available that are suitable. I usually have a few breeds in mind. But sometimes it comes down to finding a breed you can enjoy that has the tools for the job you want them for. I spent over 10 years to find my Doberman, & more than that to find the right SPOO. To be clear though I was striking out because many thought I had a crack in my head or that I was a maniac to want a SPOO for work as a bodyguard except I had trained with & handled two. I also found a kennel (more recently) in Russian who are breeding & handling SPOOs trained in bite sport but I didn't want to travel to Russia. 

At the time when I was searching for a dog & picked my Giant Schnauzer, I had visited some working Bouvier kennels. I got to train with a couple & did not care for the some strong breed traits. They also weren't as agile as I wanted. I liked the sense of humor of the Briard but not the stubborn streak. The Giant Schnauzer offered a good looking dog that provided me the overall picture of what I wanted, a good looking dog who did not invite a lot of people to try her (she is 83 pounds of muscle, extremely powerful dog, she has a growl like a grizzly bear, & has a natural instinct to protect. We were moving to desert country & I've been told the Giant doesn't like heat but honestly heat & snow doesn't bother my dog within reason. She'll lay on snow & ice & when it was in the 90's with high humidity last week she'd go sun herself in full sunshine. 

Likewise when she was old enough & I knew it was time to get a youngster I had been loosely looking for a SPOO, I had a near miss with the Russian breeder. Met someone breeding crossbreds that thought they would fool me. But then I found Mr. Layne's breeder. When I learned she had a breeding pair who had actively put an intruder out of the house... I had to hit her up. We talked for a long time & liked each other immediately. She prepared me & released the beasts. Her male & female charged like two battle warriors. The female stopped out of reach when the owner called her name & told her it's okay but the male rushed right up my nose practically but he went up on hind legs & came eye to eye with me. I heard both owners catch their breath. I looked at the dog & said, "Well hello there, aren't you a peach" & he turned on his hind legs, sat beside me, & leaned up against me. Instant friends. And no do not every let anyone release their dogs on you if you don't have enough experience to know what you're getting into. I do & had this gone bad I was prepared to take the hit. This pair was purely raw talent without proper training.

Stay tuned for more of traits to look for.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Fenris-wolf said:


> @dogsavvy yeah, good Dobermans and German Shepherds are very hard to come by. The good breeders are the ones who breed for the dog to have an off switch too. Have you heard of Carmspack German Shepherds? She has been breeding for 40 years and knows what she is talking about, and does health testing. My next dog will be a German Shepherd from her.


I believe I have met one of her dogs but it's been a long time. It's always refreshing when a breeder is working for the old traits. Loved seeing the pics of her dogs working livestock. I miss being able to easily find such dogs. I'd love to know how you like your pup from her when you get one.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

For want of a Poodle,

You are wise to find nervous working dogs scary. The overwound, the nervy, the scatterbrained dogs are a liability. Dogs that over react, brainlessly chase movements give me the heebeegeebies. I've seen imported dogs who are so spun out they spin in their crates like possessed creatures or damage their own tails to the point bnb or requiring surgery. So sad.

Let's say you picked your breed, found a wonderful breeder, now you're looking at pups. I like to take my husband & let he & the breeder yak while I silently observe. I'm not really looking for the pups who romp all over me. Generally there will be a pup who is watching me. The pup takes it's time to decide. Then approaches. This pup isnt shy but she's cautious. On occasion I'll have a pup sneak up on me. If she tracks me, she's already working for me.

If the pup is challenging me it will depend on the read I get. The very clever pups dont rush in. They are bold but they are CAREFUL at that age. If that pup barks at my husband or us at first sight, I'll be watching those pups further. I dont want the bully. I dont want the wal mart greeter. I'm looking for a pup who assesses then proceeds so long as they're not fearful. One such pup followed me through her litter keeping well out of reach. Her brothers were all over us. I got sidetracked for a moment looking at the parents &.. I felt a presence. She sat down, looked up at me expectantly. I picked her up & for 13 years she protected us. I had another who scaled my britches leg like a cat. 

Mr. Layne's breeder did the initial selection for us but when we arrived... she wanted us to meet the whole litter, dam, sire, offspring the kept from another litter & still had. She welcomed me to choose another puppy but she was spot on. He was quite aloof but covertly investigated me.

I've also bought puppies that the breeder selected & shipped to me. This requires a LOT of trust & communication. If the breeder want you to pick at 3 days old or a week old based on color, it is no good, not for a guardian. Where I got my Malinois was no issue, I'd trust that breeder with my life. With my Giant the breeder put far too much effort into exactly what we needed so i wasnt too worried. 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

I can’t say I’m really familiar with guard type dogs, so please bare with me if my question is stupid lol.

I’m just curious as to what kind of breeder and puppy you should be looking for if you want a dog that kinda knows how to turn that protective trait on and off? Like, yes you see the potential intruder pup, but I say they’re okay; go back to normal. Is that even possible? Or would that all rely on the training you give it as an owner?

Also, I know I’ve heard most people recommend or prefer European working lines when it comes to these certain breeds and I want to know if you feel they show a certain quality that North American lines don’t hold at all? Examples are dobermans, GSDs, and mastiffs.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How would you assess a dog that barks while approaching people on your property? 

I've always read that barking = lack of confidence. But Peggy's simultaneous approach confuses me. She's not hiding and barking, or even hanging back and barking. She barks and approaches until abruptly seeming to decide "friend," at which point she reverts to excited wiggles. (Although one neighbour, who has very calm, strong, confident energy, gets a sit with nose in the air and lolling tongue. Shameless "pet me" vibes.)


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo, your questions are all good. 

There are a rare few dogs that are ready-baked to defend. These are top deck dogs, sometimes full bloodlines that with little to no training will engage a threat. Many of these dogs are not registered & their bloodlines are known by their breeder. You buy from this type of breeder because his/her word is gold, you can trust your life on it because you will be. 

My Giant Schnauzer received no formal protection work training. She came to me at 5 months of age. Less than 24 hours after she arrived, she put herself between me & a relative that left the room & tried to come back in. In another month, my husband, testing the pup arranged for a visitor to raise a hand up like you might if you were going to hit someone from across the room. My dog had been snoozing on my feet & literally came to her feet, growling like a bear & by the time the hand was up she was lunging. She is not a top deck level but she's as close as 90% of civilians would want to live with. And a lot more dog than a lots of folks could handle.

So what kind of breeder. Generally usually you contact a breeder, read their website, etc... it's usually plainly stated & then you have to pick out truth vs exaggerated info. When I was on a Doberman quest I interviewed, visited, called over 200 kennels. Most people wont go to that extreme. Most breeders were honest, a few said they had what I sought only to find their dogs were just snuggle bugs. I followed the breeder's instructions but the people didnt hear me. I waited out on the patio. I frightened the breeder when I spoke from a pile if Dobermans on their swing as their elite guardians all tried to get in the swing with me [emoji15] My SPOOs breeder had the guard SPOOs locked in the house. 

Yes it is indeed possible to have a dog who sparks on someone. You determine it's okay so you give the command, "its okay" & the dog simmers down. If it's a Giant Schnauzer you'll have a little moment of, "but... but..." then you praise your dog. With a guardian you become a constant communicator. (Its okay, I see him..... leave it. Let's go..... it's okay, I see him.) You get where you don't have to stop & think, you're just fluent. The dog has to have a thinking & thinking on the fly kind of brain with guardian instincts you cant creat that in training. You can create the illusion of it through creative training. The training is to put your commands to a purpose for the dog. For instance the delivery driver who popped up where I didnt expect. Because I'm startled the dog perceived threat & jumps to action but I realize it's my friendly UPS driver...whew. I must be able to reliably stop the dog's attack. So when I give the call out... the dog may not like it cause her blood is up but she will obey. We start with obedience & build. If we didnt terrify the driver I will ask if we can do a handshake to stabilize my dog (prior to this stupid covid). The drivers cooperate as they dont want issues concerning deliveries. The dog is used to this in training & life goes on. 

When I had Dobermans they were Euro lines but bred in the US. Same for my GSDs. My Giant Schnauzer from the US. Her genetics are the result of a breeder's work over the course of 60+ years. Those Giants I know from Europe are more than most want to deal with. Fiery. Hot to handle. The German bred SPOOs I trained with were calm, quiet, & sharp eyed but were so easy to handle but they were no nonsense. There are so many breeds that dwindle when people try to breed out the very traits that make them who they are. Dobies are a prime example. 

Please let me know if this answers your questions or if I missed something 



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

PeggythePartiPoodle,

That a dog barking at people is lacking in confidence is partially a myth. To be clear there are many dogs who do indeed bark because they are fearful & trying to run a bluff. You will see this a lot (in it's purest form) in puppies. They grumble, give the offending object a dirty look, hackles may go up, they may bark out but this response is because nature has them wise enough to realize that they are not big enough to do much against a larger, more formidable, likely more experienced foe. In others either they lack confidence or have been taught fear, or they were scared of something & no one addressed it. So it does exist, yes, but I find all too often people believe the pup is barking to bluff when they are simply communicating.

The barking while going toward someone requires you to read the whole dog in that moment. It could mean, "OH BOY a new human to pet & adore me" (which is what you're seeing with the sit & present herself to the nice petting-neighbor). It can mean an alert, "hey, I see someone & I don't know them" or "I see someone & I want my human to know they are here". If a dog has obstructed vision (by way of hair in the way like the OE Sheepdog, Shih Tzu, some Poodles, etc... it could mean I hear, smell, or sorta see a potential trespasser & the charging forward can be because they are advancing with their protecting of property as best they know how. I had a Shih Tzu who was like this. I mean full steam ahead & she was fierce & half the time she get right up to the human's leg & be like, "Well there you are, bark bark bark". 

Now if she was barking, circling, advancing slowly with growls: this could simply be her style or indicate she's not confident enough to engage.

Another myth I'd like to bust because it's a huge pet peeve. A dog wagging his/her tail does NOT indicate affection for you. NO! Imagine me with news paper spatting your nose for arguing. DO NOT EVER assume the dog likes you based on the tail wag. A dog who is a guardian, has training, is confident & loves his or her work will wag that tail like nobody's business the whole time they are taking you down. SO no... when you see a dog wagging it's tail your first thought should be... read the rest of the dog. When in doubt keep hands to self. My imaginary newspaper knows no distance, whap! If you love the dog lovers in your life, get a newspaper & teach them...NO! don't believe the tail alone! My Giant doesn't wag her tail a whole bunch. Let someone try to come into the yard or house without my permission, when she makes that drive to the fence & makes her big show of "I am telling you you will not pass" her little tail will start wagging the moment she realizes someone is going to test her & try to pass or try to pet her.

Okay, I've got that out of my system (had to be said) & now back to our topic...
If Mr. Layne goes to the fence & barks but the visitor gets out of the car, he sizes the person up & if he doesn't like what he reads he will high tail it to the house & get help. He's such a smart boy. Now I can tell you many people would wash him out at that point but... he doesn't stay here. He comes sort of does this "HEY, GOTTA SITUATION HERE PEOPLE" this will set off a chain reaction & my Giant will be having a go at opening the door or looking for a window to clear. (My Giant... does not play when it comes to the safety of those she protects including her pups she raises. Mr. Layne will then drive back to the fence & this time he's going to be growling, barking (he's got a big booming, loud bark).

From what you're describing in Peggy, I'm betting this is her way of greeting. But you need to be very aware of if her bark/vocals change. If they change when she nears the person, you need to be right there. One thing I'm learning is how quickly the Poodle's mind works. A dog that lacks confidence will show some sign of nerves/uncertainty. This is the point that if the wrong thing happens the dog can get into a fear biting situation or can become permanently nervous. Confidence can be built from those moments if it's addressed.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Wow!! This is all so fascinating. I did a quick read and now will go back and slow down and really absorb. Thank you so much!

Peggy does come and get me sometimes after her initial bark. I've never seen a dog do that before. And then she hangs back to let me lead the way back to the "intruder" (usually just someone parking out front to deliver a package).

If I tell her everything's okay, she gives herself a good hard shake (I assume to release tension) and trots back to the couch with maybe just a huff or two. 

But this only happens sometimes and I've yet to identify the variable. The other extreme is furious, hysterical barking. That's when I think she could possibly bite if I were to put a hand on her collar, simply because her brain's switched off. 

I'd like to extinguish that particular response, whereas the alert bark and then letting me in on the situation is pretty perfect for our lifestyle. Maybe I need to start rewarding her, although she seems rather pleased with herself regardless.

Thank you for sharing your experience so generously.

I've always had more submissive dogs, and just want to ensure I'm shaping her instincts in a positive way. The neighbour she loves is experienced with chow chows, and he really admires Peggy. He lights up when he talks about her, and has a newfound respect for poodles. Seeing her through his eyes, I feel encouraged.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Thank you thank you thank you for the reminder about tail wagging not meaning friendly and happy to see you!!! There is a rescue rottie that frequents our dog park now. All of us leave when it arrives. The owners say oh, but see, he is friendly and wagging his tail! Ummm.... he is lunging at the fence, snarling growling and glaring at me and my dog with his tail wagging( . No, he is not friendly . 
My question is about choosing a breed or a breed type. I think of guardian dogs as divided into livestock guardians, like Maremmas akbash, and Pyrs, shepherds, like German shepherds and Malinois, pure guard breeds, like dobermanns, rottweilers, akita, and mastiffs like cane corsos, bullmastiffs, etc. How would you classify the types and what are the differences? Where do dogs like the Briard, Bouvier, and giant schnauzer fit in(shepherd?)? How would you suggest choosing between breeds or types? I admit to a strong love for those first two types though i lack the acreage for a livestock guardian and the time and stamina for a Malinois- the ones i know make Annie looks slow! My first dog, who i only have the faintest remembrance of was a livestock guardian type who liked to kill coyotes , ward off salespeople and guard small children that didn't belong to her for recreation.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

PeggythePartiPoodle 
"The other extreme is furious, hysterical barking. That's when I think she could possibly bite if I were to put a hand on her collar, simply because her brain's switched off. "

First you are most welcome for the info. 

Now this part I've quoted. This is really good information for anyone who wants to learn about this stuff. That part where the dog's brain shuts off, that's when the dog is in a whole other world & if they go there & shut you out things can get super super dangerous in a split second. So how to you prevent them from going there... the way I know to do it is to work the dog in a way so that rather than go there... they become unaccustomed to going to crazy town but instead are listening to your voice, relying on you as the leader, you are a team together rather than a dog & a human doing their own thing. 

I don't know how others do this so different trainers, different methods. My guys are trained on old military working obstacles, so that if they go to climb something & let's say they have trouble with their footing & rather than having to figure it out & find it, you say, "It's okay" & you help them place that foot, help with their balance, whatever they need. Now the dog begins to learn, 'hey, this human is helpful'. You have a dog go on a beam that has an over under (this is a walk over beam that's fairly narrow but has cross ribs over so the dog can be directed to go over, then under, under, then over so she has to balance, deal with rear foot placement AND listen for which way you want her to go under or over, you might have her wait before she does the next thing. 

I made an obstacle course out of my dinning room chairs & the kitchen table, a table cloth, the back of the couch narrow to the wall. So my dog had to not just fly through like you would in a speed event but she's relying on you. Now the fun part in how I train is you're going to go WITH the dog. So hubby might come home to find me on hands & knees, GI Jane belly crawling under simulated wires (which are simply yarn stretched out & wrapped around the chairs. Once the dog understands & can do it, I can begin, one thing at a time sending her alone... then combine obstacles & do them in different patterns. Little small high steps or jumps & again, not speed... just about listening, taking direction. I've taught dogs to pull from a harness using a laundry basket & two nylon leashes. A wheel barrow that you use in the garden makes a great obstacle for teaching trust. The first time you may lift your SPOO & put her in the wheelbarrow. Then you give the dog a sit command & you lift the thing by the handles. You will have some stops & starts because at first she might think about leaping out before you kill her because things are moving & she's not used to it. Everyone over lifts or goes to far the first exercise. Tell her "Stay" then lift it just an inch or so. When she stays, praise "GOOD stay" The best learning happens for these super smart dogs when things are INTERESTING & uncertain (so long as you don't wig them out). So you go in baby steps until you can her sit-stay or down-stay while you wheel her around. Test how high you can raise your end. Always use safety in mind & don't get carried away & over shoot what you're physical strength can handle but once they can do this, you could use a barrel or if you go to a park with a teeter totter... have the dog walk up. Practice the lift & lower with sit-stay, down-stay. Merry go rounds at the park are great for this too. You have the dog step up & move the thing. (of course you have to time this so some kid doesn't jump up scare the dog or shove you & her off to the moon!)

When you do some of this stuff at home, then venture to a quiet park where you can attempt some of this stuff. I use the slides too but I don't recommend it due to the height on a handler that doesn't know how to safety harness their dog. 

Your imagine is the only thing limiting you in this kind of training. Just keep safety first & forefront of your mind. But when you engage a dog's mind this way you will discover the more training you do the less they go to crazy town because they are listening for your direction. So that means you have to get more vocal. Someone comes up you need to respond. Mine is always, "it's okay, I see 'im" when someone arrives or we come near someone at a park. It's important because a watchful dog is going to question all the people & dogs we encounter so you always answer that question before they have to do the thinking & step into leadership role. You don't have to be loud, dog's hearing is quite keen AND if you're doing your home work... she'll have her ear open just for you


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

That’s...wow. That’s amazing, I love how you had to have a friendly interaction with the delivery driver to show them that it’s okay. I think if I someday decide to get a guard type dog, that would be kind of ideal. The teamwork of your spoo and schnauzer?? Uh, love it! You’re an amazing trainer (I’ll take two pups from your schnauzer line LOL)

One more question because you mention you’ve looked into buying from breeders overseas. How did you know that they weren’t a waste of time before paying them a visit? How did you know they were the real deal? Lastly, where do you find those kind of reputable breeders overseas?


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

dogsavvy said:


> I believe I have met one of her dogs but it's been a long time. It's always refreshing when a breeder is working for the old traits. Loved seeing the pics of her dogs working livestock. I miss being able to easily find such dogs. I'd love to know how you like your pup from her when you get one.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


It is! I loved it too. I don't see many German Shepherds herding anymore. Okay, I will let you know, but it is probably going to be around 7 years before I get one from them. School and housing come first!! Do you know of any good working Australian Shepherd breeders? I want to breed them when I move to Canada, but I have to find a good breeder and build a relationship with them.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

LulusSpoo

A zillion years ago I was offered the job as kennel master in an old German man's kennel. Didn't take the job but have been friends ever since. He has been helpful though I do try not to lean on him too much. It's very hard to know who is a straight shooter in an overseas transaction & there's a LOT of expense & no recourse if it goes bad. Even with help. You cant always count on what your friend has is current or accurate because people lie to him all the time

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

ForWantofaPoodle,

You are most welcome about the tail info. 

I divide the groups like this:

Molosser breeds: Rotties, Mastiffs, most of the livestock guardians, etc... 

****** these are the big bruisers. Lot of muscle. It's a big group but they are brawlers. Big crushing bite power. Lots from this group were used to dispatch poachers. They were used for brutal work.
The Rottweiler was also used as a cart dog & livestock drover. They have a high pain tolerance. The livestock guards are designed to fight wolves, bears, mountain lions, coyotes. Tough dogs
For my taste, a lot of these dogs are slow maturing & it takes patience to bring them along especially if you're accustomed to quick learning quick responding dogs


Bull Breeds are a subset of this group: pits, American Bulldogs

*** generally a faster dogs but still muscular & strong. I like training with dogs in this group

Herders/Drovers: shepherds, collies, Briards, Beauceron, Kelpies, healers, 

**** I favor this group. Fast minds, fast bodies, quick witted. These are thinkers with fast reaction time. These dogs place high priority on their job & family.

Terriers: Airedale, Black Russian

*******these guys are fierce & tenacious. They dont know the word quit which can be a blessing...& a curse. Love me some terror terriers but they are all guts. The Airedale has the longest canines of all the breeds (to my knowledge) & are notorious hog hunters. FIERCE

Working dogs: Doberman, Giant & Standard Schnauzer, Boxer, Danes

***** my other favorite. Dobes were the breed created to be man's bodyguard. These like se herders these dogs are serious & loyal. They've got a mind designed for their work. 

The Northern breeds: malamute, husky, Spitz breeds 

**** not a group I work with for guards except RARE occasions. Their need to get out & run makes it hard for them to act as a guardian.

Hunters: Ridgebacks, Standard Poodles, Chesapeake Bay Retrievers, some Labs, Redbones, 

***these breeds can get in trouble because their noses lead them off. Exceptions CAN be some of those above. Chessies can become so over protective they become hard to manage. I've trained a few Labs & witnessed some very good Labs, usually blacks, sometimes yellow. Never seen but 1 chocolate work like that. The trouble with the hunters is they can get stubborn & their brains are wired for game except... Poodles.

To me the Poodle belongs in the working group except they started on hunting. Mine has a strong instinct to pursue birds but very different from other hunters




(I will finish tomorrow)

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

For Want of Poodle: "My question is about choosing a breed or a breed type. I think of guardian dogs as divided into livestock guardians, like Maremmas akbash, and Pyrs, shepherds, like German shepherds and Malinois, pure guard breeds, like dobermanns, rottweilers, akita, and mastiffs like cane corsos, bullmastiffs, etc. How would you classify the types and what are the differences? Where do dogs like the Briard, Bouvier, and giant schnauzer fit in(shepherd?)? How would you suggest choosing between breeds or types? I admit to a strong love for those first two types though i lack the acreage for a livestock guardian and the time and stamina for a Malinois- the ones i know make Annie looks slow! My first dog, who i only have the faintest remembrance of was a livestock guardian type who liked to kill coyotes , ward off salespeople and guard small children that didn't belong to her for recreation."


I put the Briard & Bouvier in the herding group.

I don't see a lot of Akitas who go through training & I put my stamp of approval on them for guardianship of humans. They can be quite moody & I've seen a few of them get as grumpy with their handlers as the bad guy.

What you'll want to first consider where you live & your neighbors, how much dog you need for the job you have but also how much dog you can handle. I'm physically strong but I was injured some years back & when my Giant came to me, wow... very powerful dog. I saw her uproot my husband once. She only hopped him forward once & he got a hold on her. Yet she taught herself not to pull or yank on me. In 9 years she never yanks on me even in a full display of guardian work. If she hadn't saw the need & adjusted... I'd have been in trouble. I'm currently working toward self improvement but these kinds of things have to be considered. 

Let me give you some other info to consider. Keep in mind when you look at the bite per square inch of pressure this is what the dog is going to use against a bad guy/intruder/attacker.
The breeds listed I was able to find bite pressure per square inch ratings:

Pit Bull 235 PSI
American Bulldog 305 PSI
Dogo Argentino 500 PSI
Cane Corso 700 PSI
Mastiff 556 PSI
Tosa Inu 556 PSI

Kengal 743 PSI
Leonberger 399 PSI
Rottweiler 328 PSI

Malinois 195 PSI
Dutch Shepherd 224 PSI
German Shepherd 238 PSI

Doberman 245 PSI
Great Dane 238 PSI

Labrador 230 PSI
Akita 350-400 PSI 

On bite statistics we have (listed in order of worst offenders): Pit Bull, Rottweiler, German Shepherd, Bullmastiff (Presa Canario), Wolf Hybrid, Husky, Akita, Boxer, Chow, Lab, Great Dane, Mastiff, Doberman, Cane Corso, Blue Heeler, St Bernard, Australian Shepherd, Golden Retriever. There were also mixes of the above breeds on the list.

The reason I posted bite statistics is this is very important concerning your guardian/bodyguard & insurance companies. The way the world is turning, I decided long ago to seek out guards that were not on the list for as long as that was possible. And yes, you can be denied coverage or your premiums go through the roof because you have certain breeds.

So when you are selecting your future guardian breed this can lead to huge heartbreak if your insurance company says NO. My sister had picked a Doberman puppy, so excited to finally get another dobie in her life when she found out her insurance was going to TRIPLE or she would be canceled. I was able to get insurance but the man who did the farm/home visit told us, "keep your mouth shut. I see dogs. You don't tell me what kind they are... ever." But he spent a couple of hours with us, watching us put dogs in & out for bathroom & exercise while he was there. Dogs going from crate to yard with no leash, on command & behaved well. He told me he'd been bitten by hunting dogs & some heelers. He was scared of our kind of dogs except at our house.

So you also look at & consider where you life & neighbors. Livestock guardians are not good at worrying about fences so if you live on acreage but your neighbors aren't going to appreciate big Anatolian visiting to look after their cows or driving off dogs that they don't think belong there. Where we just moved from, we had a neighbor with a mixed LSG (livestock guard) & she's nearly come to lawsuits or major fights with neighbors because her dog thinks it dictates on everyone's property so if you bring in new livestock, she tries to drive them off. This can be a HUGE problem. If you have lots of visitors & company visiting family or a house full of neighbor kids, the Russian Ovcharka, not likely your dog they resent strangers in their domain. If you're a bookworm & not always on the go go go with activity, don't get a Mal or Dutch Shepherd. 

I can tell you the Giant Schnauzer is very hard to get to adulthood without wanting to kill them. They are NAUGHTY & crazy puppies. Gotta have tons of exercise but once grown, they are wonderful. My girl is gettting older & it's hard to imagine life without her. She has one goal in life... protecting ME & the tiny dogs. She loves & adores my husband but I'm HER human.

if you pick out some breeds & tell me a bit about what you want I can give you pros/cons. I'll help you any way I can. Let me know if I'm still not answering you well.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

I think the breeds I'm interested in are Cane Corsos and Giant schnauzer's. You've listed the cons/pros of schnauzer's, but what about Corsos? I'm looking to buy one either of the two when I settle down hopefully in the suburbs. Do you recommend it? If so, are there any particular lines you're fond of?


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I have heard nice things about the Outlaw line of Cane Corsos. As I dont know the breeder or his work, I cant endorse him. He had info about the breed from an expert in Italy that was interesting on his site. When I was considering the breed myself an old breeder said they're not a good match for me because I keep more than one dog. They can develope issues with dog aggression in same sex dogs. But of the ones I've seen in the last few years, ive seen were skittish. Also seems to be some heart issues taking dogs too soon. 

My Goant did well in the suburbs. Dont know about the CC

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

(Sorry in advance for this long thread! I suck at summarizing)

I keep reading through this thread and digesting more, thank you! Last night i started working Annie with feet up on a wheelbarrow. Today she hopped in on her own, i will try lifting it in a session or two.

i grew up about a kilometer through heavy forest and swamp from my nearest neighbour. Tend to forget about boundary and neighbour issues 
A good reminder about insurance , i have never been asked about dogs on mine but i am sure that is coming here, too.

I am 3 to 4 years out from another dog, which may not even be a guardian type (considering a mini or small standard) depending on life circumstances, but... I researched poodles for 5+ years before Annie and like to be prepared. 

Breeds i have experience with either owning or training: poodle, border collie crosses (not neurotic , farm dogs) , hounds, yorkie, labs (show and working), goldens, corgi, St. Bernard, cocker spaniel cross, Airedale, Australian shepherds (show and working ), australian cattle dogs (working ), english shepherds (working). 

My favourites are probably my poodle, the collies, the english shepherd, and the cattle dog. Love working line herders. The ones i would never want to own myself are the labs, hounds, and terriers. 

Dog Traits i value : eyes on me , good health, nonshedding/ low shedding/seasonal shedding, confidence, an attitude, brains , bounce back from scares, desire to keep working (my collie cross could learn new tricks faster than i could think of them and keep asking for MORE ), dogs who are aware of and control their strength, being polite (reserved is ok) with most strangers if i am around , friendly with known friends, good for a home with multiple dogs, reliable recall. Adaptable, can bring anywhere (public transit, stores, etc). Relatively relaxed but watchful and who will assess threats with good judgement. 

Not - unpredictable or untrustworthy, not handler attentive, poor health/ bad joints 

i like offleash hiking and camping and think dogs need to run. I love the water and wish my dog would swim with me and ride on top my kayak. Dont like letting dogs go wild and value obedience training and early socialization. I have no issues with owning a 150 lb dog again, but like the 50 lb, carryable size of my spoo. 

Annie and i do one or two training sessions a day, a few short walks, one longer walk, trip to a new location, offleash park trip, offleash hike, ball session, or dog sport class each day. Thats about the right activity level for me. I do obedience stuff to tire her out on walks and during the day.

Breeds i have never met but am curious about:
* Tervuren/Groenendel* - i see people say they are overly shy, but love the idea of a lighter weight dog guardian (50 lb) i can pick up, and the brains. I have heard they have a better off switch than the Mals.
*Giant Schnauzers *like the idea of them, yours sounds lovely though maybe too sharp for me, worry they may be too terrier like and independent. 

*Briards*- hard to find, but another working dog with a low shedding coat i dont know enough about.

*Komondor*- not suitable for me any time soon. Never met one outside of Europe, where they are definitely not dogs to approach without their owners. Wonder if you have met any?

*Beauceron??? *like the short coat and build, but do not know enough about them.

Dogs i have met impressive examples of but i dont want to own: rottweiler, doberman, bullmastiffs, boxer, cane corso 

Dogs i have met and liked 
*Bouvier* - met one who worked in a store with his owner. Loved how he watched me, assessed me, and chose to greet me, and made it clear it was his store and he could be over the divider and at me in 3 seconds if he chose to (and sneaked out to better meet me when his owner wasnt paying attention) . Neat to watch his behaviour when a different person entered, moved away from me to be between me and new guy so he could see us both, at a distance to make sure the new person wasn't gonna try anything . Definitely a thinker. But slower dogs .

*German shepherds* - not a fan of many, occasionally meet a highly impressive beautifully behaved, focused, and confident one, or one who is a way better dog than the owners deserve. Probably they shed too much and have too many health issues...

Sorry for the small novel! Are any of those breeds ones I should consider, and are there others i should look at?


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy's best (only? lol) friend is a Briard. She is the most confident dog I've ever met, imported from Hungary. She was completely unfazed by her transatlantic journey and marched into her first puppy class like she'd been there a dozen times before.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Ugh, that sucks. With such a large dog and my preference for female dogs (I hate hormonal-related behaviors of males and their “lipstick” keeps me a way lol. Pats on the head, back and licks only), I would never take the chance. I wonder what you would suggest, if you don't mind? I really enjoy a dog that listens and is alert. A dog that's loyal and shows affection, but it's not too much/something they'll grow out of as years pass on. I'd have to say that like Floofy, I wouldn't mind something low shedding, however it's not priority. I don't know if it's possible, but a dog that's aware of their size too? I do love small breeds equally.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Luluspoo - i think Starvt has a cane corso, and breeds them. She may be able to confirm how they do with other girls.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy's best (only? lol) friend is a Briard. She is the most confident dog I've ever met, imported from Hungary. She was completely unfazed by her transatlantic journey and marched into her first puppy class like she'd been there a dozen times before.
> 
> View attachment 469331


That's the kind of Briard I went looking for. Just had trouble finding one. The youngster I handled had a stubborn streak a mile wide but... I was the 5th trainer this pup was handed to. Nice pup just wasnt going to be pushed around. She would bark out at strangers to back them off but not for the owner. The owner was pretty furious


Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I love love love my terriers, even though my own JRT is a pain sometimes. However, I'm curious as to how one would go about training a terrier for protection work? Wouldn't the massive prey drive and general attitude be a bit of an issue? I haven't had the pleasure of meeting an Airedale or a Black Russian IRL, although they seem to be gorgeous dogs and well-put-together.

The dogs I'm most interested in from your list would be the Spoo (of course), Boxer, Airedale, Black Russian, Schnauzers, Briard, Kelpie, Heeler, and pretty much any shepherd, although I favor the German shepherd and the Belgian breeds for that group. It surprises me that you put Redbones on there, although if Where the Red Fern Grows is true to the breed, I guess I shouldn't be!

FWOP captures what I do and don't want in a dog pretty much exactly, although I don't have allergies/don't really mind cleaning the hair everywhere, so shedding is not as much of an issue. 

As for activity level, I typically go on a mile run in the mornings, and then a 1/2 mile walk. Sometimes Misty will come with me on the run. Fluffy can't because of his knees, but joins us on the walk. Later in the day we'll usually do a training session and another 1/2 mile walk. On rare occasions we do that multiple times, depending on how hyped up I am/the dogs are. I also like to hike. When Misty was a lot younger, we'd also do agility on equipment that I built out of scraps left over from my dad's projects. Maybe not the safest of things to do it on, but we both had fun. About once a month or so, though, I need to stay in the house and chill in bed for health reasons, so any dog I get has to be able to settle down for a day or two.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Forwantofpoodle & floofy I'm gonna tackle your posts tomorrow 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy's best (only? lol) friend is a Briard. She is the most confident dog I've ever met, imported from Hungary. She was completely unfazed by her transatlantic journey and marched into her first puppy class like she'd been there a dozen times before.
> 
> View attachment 469331


Sounds like very Hungarian dog lol. 

The coyote killing dog i mention above was a hungarian kuvasz, bred to killl wolves, and the komondors are supposed to be more formidable guardians (!!!). I have family there, and have said that if i was ever to get one i would import from Hungary, as the dogs are much healthier and still worked there. So i will keep that in mind of i ever want a briard puppy!


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

FloofyPoodle,

Terriers should all be sold with little leather jackets & a warning that "quite" isn't really in their vocabulary. In the Schnauzers, the Standard is the oldest of the 3 breeds (& they are 3 separate breeds, different ingredients to make the three sizes & the traits that make them unique). The Mini shows the strongest terrier traits, the Standard more so than the Giant but not as much as the Mini. So if you like the terriers & you have a knack for handling them, you simply understand how to bring out what you need from those fiesty little buggers. The Black Russian Terrier has really made changes in the last 15-20 years. The first one I ever saw came over from it's homeland with it's family. Very serious beast. It would be wise to advise anyone that lives in high heat & high humidity areas, the BRT does not do well in heat. They're not bred for it. The working Airdale are amazing dogs when you can find one near the balance point. I spend some time testing a few things to see how much is that the dog has been allowed to let its prey drive get out of control vs a dog with prey drive that's through the roof to the point of it being a problem. Make no mistake about it, a dog who just mindlessly chases anything spunky that goes past him... not a safe guardian. I know trainers who have had trouble with terriers because they will break bones, harm themselves going after the thing they are after. It does you no good if you have a home invasion & the dog is so focused on get the bad guy that he does something to himself & bleeds out or can't function. His job is to help you to get away. So this can be problematic. I love terriers & grew up with them. It's amazing their tenacity but it's gotta work for you.

I've seen one working guardian Boxer in the last 20 years. A big, beautiful, old style bred dog who was owned by a woman who trained dogs for soldiers in Viet Nam. Unfortunately someone talked her into neutering him. She had no idea how hard this type of Boxer was getting but he had the fire & could bring it in a moment's notice. Fascinating woman & dog.

Heelers & Chessies (from the hunting group) have the same issue. They can be very laser focused on ONE person. So if you have a family or have lots of family/friends that come over you have to be super careful because they can get to the point they are intolerant of anyone. Not all. I know an old rancher whose heelers held 8 guys while the old guy drove over to a neighbor's to use the phone, the neighbor & his sons returned to find all 8 guys terrified to come out of the old corn crib in the barn from the dog watching the door to the two that were steadily working their way toward tearing into that corn crib. I adore Kelpies. They are extremely active & often get into trouble because if you don't exercise them... they will entertain themselves & create their own work. I have a niece with a couple of old adopted Kelpies. Great dogs with her child. I like them all  

I came from hunting dog country & there are a lot of Redbone Coonhounds. The same grit that will have that dog squaring off against a 50-60 pound boar **** can be used to protect their humans from bad people. The most notorious one that I remember with great love & affection belonged to a youngster. His Dad was a single dad who jerked his kid out of the city after he was grazed in a drive by shooting by a warring gang. Moved the kid to po-dunk-junction & the kid didn't fit in & hated EVERYTHING. But a good friend conned me into allowing him to come tracking with my guys. I don't have a lot of kid experience (my step kids were teens when I came on the scene) & our Grandson was not a typical kid. So I just laid out the rules, obey them or you get the boot, ask questions when we are all standing around post track. He wanted to work with us more than he wanted to get into trouble so we ended up with our kid & when his Dad could afford it he bought his kid a puppy, a Redbone. Another local trainer really rained on his parade over Peaches. The kid was crushed, the Dad did not have the money for a $2500 puppy to work with us & was too proud to tell me the issue. Good grief anyone of us would have given the kid a pup if we knew he could have one for free but the Dad has his pride. I had him bring Peaches to me. And before she was 6 months old, she was accurately mantracking & when one of the guys came out of the brush, Peaches went full blown attack dog. As the boy had handled my 98 pound bruiser, he remembered what to do. The rest is history. Peaches lived to be 14 years old & died curled up next to her master while he was home on leave from serving his country. Peaches is not the only Redbone we've trained with who was far better than given credit for. As with most of the hunting breeds, their noses get them into trouble though & it depends on if the dog is willing to override that to work with you in other ways. Some are not. In fact if you ever track with Bloodhound puppy (don't try it with an adult unless you are super strong, have long endurance, & can cover ground like they do). Some of these hunting breeds resent you interfering with them or slowing them down & it creates conflict not conducive to the work we are talking about. While I'm at it, sometimes the English Shepherd can be a great option but it's been a *long* time since I went looking for one for this type of work.

For people who are runners, hikers if you're consistent enough, the more active members will do well. The Giant Schnauzer loves to eat up the ground but I am not a runner (I'm built like a concrete cinder block). Some of the big heavy breeds may view your need for running as a large annoyance. A breeder friend of mine who used to breed Russian Ovcharkas used to run his fence lines to his property every day. He took a pair of his dogs with him. Someone gifted him a molosser pup of another breed. I can't remember right now which breed but it saw no reason to go farther than it took to be able to see the house. They'd leave the pup where it sat & when they returned, she'd be in the same spot they left her. This was not a plus to my friend.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

ForWantofaPoodle,

You had me breed shopping online last night. You & I share the need to research in common. If everyone did it might be better for dogs & humans alike. I'm an information junkie. And no worries about the length of your posts, as you can see from mine, I'm not so hot at summarizing. With the written word I find I am sometimes misunderstood because I don't go in depth enough or I go too in depth & the reader glazes over from overload. LOL It's not deliberate.

I hope my Standard Poodle continues as he is in the Guardian department because I'd be okay with another one when it's time. He's just wonderful to live with & raise. He's having a pest phase right now with the girls (my other dogs) but that's to be expected. The Giant's allergies are acting up & he's insistent he can clean her eyes & she's not always receptive to his good intentions. LOL My girl is 9 & never had issues other than occasional watery eye but we've moved to this location & there's something that's triggered my husband (normally not allergy sensitive), me & the Giant. We just haven't figured out what it is.

Now let's wade through some of these breeds. I wish I had a source in Hungary myself. If they're producing dogs like this... oh my! I have an acquaintance who has two male rough coated Collies & they are a terror when it comes to protecting their family complete with full on bite work. The older male's sire came from Hungary & the dam is in Ireland. The man went over there & was nearly bitten by their collie (he thought the collie would be like the ones over here). The Collie said how dare you touch me or enter my gate without the master's permission. He learned a lesson & convinced the lady of the house to let him buy a puppy. I'd take one of his pups in a heartbeat but he's having trouble finding females that would cross with his 2 males.

In the traits you value, the low shedding narrows the field more than anything. Poodle, Giant/Standard Schnauzer (they don't shed but have hair so they drop hair like a human, they don't expel/shed. So you do have some hair but it's not like having a shepherd or the Collie... oh the Collie hair!). Airdales are like the Giant in the hair department.

And I gotta tell you when I read about you & water, loving to camp & the dog going on the Kayak. You might really dig into the Giant Schnauzer. The black members of the breed tend to love the water. My dog's breed suspects the Spoo is in that variety of the breed & that the Wolfhound or something similar is in the Salt/Pepper variety as they show signs of the traits of a breed like that. They will scan the horizon & spot even the smallest thing out of order. I am forever reading about people taking their Giants camping, hiking, canoeing , etc... Just remember those buggers will go off on a bear or anything else they feel threatens you. My husband says the first two years the breeders should provide two gallons of aspirin tablets & booze. They get pretty good from there. LOL The Standard would be more the size you like but just as there are in the SPOO, you can find Giants that aren't soo large. Either would be at home on your kayak if you start them young. Standards are used for police work in Europe & are very hardy & healthy overall. I favor the S/P over the blacks in Standards though. I don't know why. Standard Schnauzers are in the size you like but I am told many of them are like living with little military generals. They rule the roost over everyone except their leaders. 

Breeds you're curious about:
Tervurens: I think they're beautiful but the ones I've met or trained with were skittish & nervy compared to their cousins the Malinois. When you find a steady one, they are nice dogs. I haven't seen a lot of them do well as guardians but nice pets & obedience dogs.

Groenendel: I've only met a couple of these & they were not interested in anyone except their handler (which is normal for that family). The Mal, Terv, Groenendel, Belgian Shepherdog are all in the same family & were bred a little different to separate them.

You mentioned the Giant & that mine might be a little sharp. Honest there are Giants who are used for therapy dogs (I have a friend whose died by was a very active therapy dog). Mine is also a velcro dog. I do nothing alone & haven't for 9 years. There are Giants good with babies, children, & just hang out with everyone all the way to the dogs from Europe that you do not touch if you aren't their human so it's a wide swing of temerament.

Briards: The one in the picture with Peggy the Parti, that's what i had been looking for. I really loved the one I had in training but I could not get the owner to let me buy her  She had zero respect or tolerance for that human. I have never found another one that I really liked & found to be solid except imports who their owners wouldn't part with

Komondors: Oh they are little fireballs & if you have one of these protecting you... you sleep well. Someone brought me one & they thought it was a poorly bred Poodle. They'd shaved off his cords & brought him in on 4 leashes & 6 humans to get it done. The vet wanted to put him down but sent them to me because they knew i wouldn't beat the dog up & if there was any hope for him, we were it. Neat dog. His problem was he had been dog napped off a sheep ranch with his sheep. I didn't really know anything but contacted police asking if anyone had reported sheep, goats, calves stolen. Him & I figured each other out but he was an imposing dog & part rubber band as he could escape & be back on you for a fight before you even realized you lost your grip on his leash. He finally realized I wasn't going to 'grab' him, let me put a leash & collar on him. He walked 5 feet out from me & watched me & everyone else. Finally convinced the vet to check him for chips without a muzzle. Found he was chipped & located his owner which led them to check barns in our area & wow, yes he & the sheep were stolen from Montana. Got him returned to his owner & you've never seen such a happy pair. Poor guy was not accustomed to being handled by anyone except 2 humans & their children. They were weeping, he was in heaven, & the entire staff of the clinic & the 'foster' home were bawling our eyes out. Never seen a dog like that before. It was beautiful. They bond very tightly to their trusted human

Beaucerons: I would try one & will probably be in so much trouble when I drag one home some day but I love the breed. The ones I knew & worked were much more coarse dogs than what you see breeders working. One of the two who put the hurt on me in training was 110 pounds. Solid muscle. This would also be an excellent candidate for camping, kayaking, etc... I'm not sure if they're into swimming or not but I'm telling you, like the doberman, they've got eyes that can freeze a man's soul if he's got bad thoughts in his head. I've had a female Beauce who looked at me & brought the hair up on the back of my neck. I was in line to get one of her puppies but she & her owner were killed in a car crash  They are one of my favorites when bred right.

Bouviers: I like them but their grooming needs. Ugh, they get wet & their hair will sour. I've known a few Bouv breeders who all said the same thing. If you value a clean house or you have allergies, rethinkt he Bouvier. They pack in everything. I like them but prefer the mind of the Giant

Because you are active, you might enjoy a Mal IF (that's a big if) you could find someone who is using them for farm work (not talking about just showing but actually breeding what they work & working what they breed). My girl was NOT what 99% of the people would want to live with. I had been hit by a car as a pedestrian & had a lot of messed up spine I dealt with. I sat in the floor & had gone quite (I know, unbelieveable right? LOL) while my husband talked to a client we were going to be training a dog for who I did not like (the man not the dog). The man was a pompous jerk who was an expert on dogs & dog behavior but couldn't train his pup. I think everyone knows the type. Ego the size of the grand canyon with little reason for it. I also suspect he was an abusive bully. I had my Malinois laying on my left side between myself & the client. I was in the floor, the dog laying up against me from hip to knee. I felt her breathing shift, she was snoozing. AT one point a disk in my back slipped & pinched a nerve. I went numb from the waist down except for the p-a-i-n. Yeesh. Awful. I never said a word, didn't make any sounds. At that point my husband was demonstrating to the client about how people behave the draws the dog into suspicion & causes a bite. He reached out like he was going to grab me. That little Mal went from snoozing to action in less than a second. She was in motion & I was just fast enough to get my hand up to clamp my index & middle finger by her muzzle as I said, "it's okay, leave it" Husband looked at us sort of puzzled & kept talking. I had to stop him & tell him talk to her. she doesn't understand why you threatened me. He spoke to her, "Sorry girl, you know I wouldn't hurt Mom" & went to finish what he was saying except the client & had death grip on his son & they were both plastered to the back of the couch holding his breath, white as a ghost. He believes dogs only bite out of fear ( this is a wrong & foolish notion). He demanded to know why my husband would let me have a dog like that. (LOL, let me) My husband never blinked, "Mister, that dog's job is to see to it that NO ONE hurts my wife... even me. If I do something to harm my wife, I expect that dog to do her best to stop me & if I wouldn't stop because I'd lost my mind, I'd expect her to try to kill me." I think my heart grew 10 sizes that day. My husband meant it. It took a bit for my dog to forgive him & the only reason I had time to save him from a bite was because he is Dad & she has never seen him be violent toward me. Understand just how little that movement was. He slowly acted as if he were going to grab me (I mean slow, nothing sudden or abrupt). The dog's response was so strong because of what happened to me with my spine. She knew I couldn't defend myself. So Malinois can be hair trigger BUT IF you can find someone breeding & using them on a farm... might be just what you want. They do shed though. 

Let me know if I missed something


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Now I've shared with you the story of my Malinois would could go on a person due to muscle tension changes (like if we were shaking hands & I released & you didn't. The change in muscle tension... boom. It wasn't that she was a vicious, quite the opposite, she was thinking & clear headed. In comparison, my Giant would go from la-tee-da, these visitors are no big deal to being very quiet & super alert at the point you reach your hand out. She'd be reading you like a book. If she read something she didn't like she would move into position & coil like a snake. If you were one of those people who wanted to just "see what she'd do" (btw, foolish thing to try with one of my dogs as mine tend to be fairly high octane) she's apt to punch you, using her forehead like a gigantic fist. She's accurate & the one time she got me (because I stepped in the way) it hurt for more than a week.

Because of how I raise them, my dogs tend to be sharp. I grew up with dogs like that. Dogs tend to step down their game to accommodate their handlers so when you have a handler who shapes them into guardian work, they tend to roll with it. When I got my Giant, she's out of pure show lines all my handlers poked at me because "what are you going to do with a show pony?" The first time some of them met her they swore she couldn't have come from a show kennel. I showed them the paperwork. But in fairness to the breeder, she is not breeding dogs for just for the show ring. She's had dogs go into Schutzhund, bodyguard work, etc... So when I was so very specific in what I wanted, she provided. But those first 2 years... lol. Here's an example so you have an idea of what I'm talking about. As I've done a lot of mantracking work, I tended to be very set in my habit patterns: come home from work, walk up stairs, greet dogs & husband, put my backpack in a certain place & my purse behind it. One day I was coming up the stairs, hubby was fixing dinner, everything was going wrong in the kitchen, smoke rolling & he saw me & said, "can you come help me real quick?" Of course I tossed my bags at the couch & went to help him before he dropped a hot pan full of food. Well, once we had crisis averted the Giant exploded, executing a bark & hold & there was no stopping her until the problem was solved. My husband says, "I think that dog is mental" (this is often said of young Giants) & I go in to check (this is the handler's job, the young dog finds a problem, you have to go clear it, shoot it, or call 911). So I go in & she has her nose inches from my purse (you see to her, this item was in the wrong place, anything out of place is an issue & unsafe to her handler so it must be fixed). Same thing happened when my husband's coffee mug sprang a leak & the gas station replaced it for him: same color, same identical mug. I even called the station & they checked for me it was the same manufacturing lot as the original yet the dog knew that was NOT the same & she barked & held it until I cleared it. I gave her the "I got it" & had her sit/stay. I picked the cup up, looked it over, showing a good amount of attention to it, took the lid off, smelled the contents. It took me awhile to figure out her crisis over the cup but she was absolutely accurate. It was NOT the same cup. God bless this dog's breeder because no matter how many times I wrote to find out if her behavior was normal, she patiently answered. I always asked (because I know this lady is super busy) 1) is this normal for the breed or 2) specific to this individual dog. All of it, every time, normal for breed.

Now for everyone who wants to raise their pup to be a keen guardian. This is the kind of stuff you do. So when I got Mr. Layne, I watched him watching the other dogs. If my Giant ran to the window & popped up on a chair to see if someone was in our drive, his ears would go up. I would ask in a very calm tone, "Is it somebody?" & I only did this when I knew it was actually someone. Being a Standard Poodle, he catches little deeper is than many other breeds. He's up there with my Malinois in perception. It's not uncommon for the others to be going nuts & he's just like, "i don't see what their deal is." So you adjust to each individual. For my Giant as a youngster when she sees something it's such an explosion of barking I have to be very calm. When it was someone, she would get, "GOOD watch. Good watch," & it's the tone I use that dogs start working for... oh they want that kind of approval. For Mr. Layne, I go quiet, "What do you see?" If he barks or better, growls... I insure it is someone & he gets the "GOOD watch". He tends to coil back like a snake & if he leaps forward, I've never worked with a decoy who could get out of his way because he's got a big leap forward when he springs. I have a phrase I use when it's a friendly person that is not a threat. Like when our kids/grandkid comes to see us. I'll use as an example the one my Giant's breeder suggests as it's very common & easy to remember. She waves & calls out, "Hi, how are ya!" & it's in a nice friendly greeting tone & the Giants know this is her 'cool it, it's okay... we love this person'. And you should have a pass word/phrase or item that is used by dog sitters or house sitters so your helper doesn't get eaten. 


I'm not trying to overload you but anyone reading this, it's important to understand what you're getting into. Mr. Layne is a very fast & athletic dog. If he didn't have the kind of mind to want to please me, I could never trust him to take him farther but he is all in. My Giant is such a natural guardian. She's helping with his training but he's got the natural umph.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Ok- so on my list are a giant or a standard schnauzer (only met a mini), a beauceron, a briard (but be careful to find a good one), a farm working mal, and , because i do love them, an english shepherd. Thank you that was incredibly helpful. 

I can handle some shedding- if i am in the right house , bathe them often, and dont allow the dog to sleep in my room (so not my old apartment). Do prefer dogs who shed seasonally though. I love my standard, and will probably always have a poodle now. She makes me laugh and smile just watching her. But i do miss having a herding breed dog. 

Honestly, glad to hear about maybe a farm malinois. I know two Mals, i love them both, both are WAY too much dog for their owners and too much energy for me, but.... i could have a lot of fun with one, they are so focused and driven to do ALL the things lol, and so fearless about new things. " . One owner was a first time dog owning family, told at the pound it was a collie shepherd cross. But... it kept 3 athletic teens busy to exercise it. The other is one of those guys who takes a malinois to a dog park (??? I used to go to one any time it was snowing, super windy, or raining like mad, so that often we could have it to ourself. Usually this guy was there ), barks commands in german that the dog ignores, and then ignores him to talk to his buddies and tells me how i should raise Annie ... 

I screwed up with annie and water. Had her play and follow me on slippery wet rocks in may, age 5 months or so, first experience with a lake. Slipped in, was scared, and at age 1.5 will only now after a lot of work willingly play in the shallows. She loves to boat and to canoe, but perching on my kayak? No. Hopping in to a canoe from more than ankle deep water? No. Slow work in progress. 
i am used to hysterics about minute changes. Trixie, the yorkie, spent her first year freaking out anytime ANYTHING changed. The garbage cans are out? Omg. There is a piece of paper in the hall. Omg. Someone on the walking route got a new decoration. Omg. There is a new pipe sticking out on that house. Omg. There is a Christmas tree. Omg, someome added a present under the christmas tree. Etc. Sometimes we couldn't see what the change was, but i am sure she was right! 

As for a password/safe signal, definitely agree. Annie is not a natural guardian... mostly. But she is not a fan of people walking towards me at night. She gets between me and them, big black dog, and barks, deep, serious barks, shiny white teeth, if they are heading for me. Last camping trip it was a group of kids and their mom , i was waiting at my car for a friend . I said hello. They ignored me i said it again 3 times, dog getting more worked up. Finally said, i need you to say hello or talk so my dog knows you are friendly . Mom said hello begrudgingly, i replied its a nice night. Annie flipped into her normal, "oh, hi person! So happy to see you!! " Mode as the woman stalked past with her gaggle of children. i am sure she thought i had a psycho poodle, but i was pretty content with her. I lived and walked a lot downtown in a poor city, past bars and some homeless shelters in the dark, past abandoned and falling down warehouses, etc at my old apartment with her, i dont mind her being protective of me when people are approaching at night, and yeah, they were afraid of her and their body language was weird, and they were a large group stalking silently towards us at night. One night she warned me the same way, serious barks, when i was being (possibly deliberately) followed home by a man and his akita. Good dog. On the other hand, the second time my dad met her, first time my puppy saw him at my old apartment, i left a key just in case he got there first, came home to find my dad and my 5 mo puppy on the porch. Never even barked when he came in, opened the crate, leash on, etc. And the rottie she is afraid of, she hides behind me! But, i wanted an easy first dog of my own and i more or less got one 

How did you get into tracking?


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I started out trying show or sport tracking but my heart wasnt in it. I knew it's not how I was tracked by dogs as a child. I learned about foot step tracking, trailing & air scent but I met up with a very old world trainer who started dogs off tracking their handler, then a stranger. No trying to make the dog keep his head down to scent. It was just a human, a track line, & a scent I couldn't smell but the dog could. Thrilling work if you've enough patience. It's a very ritualistic type of thing. I had fun seeing how dogs overcame difficulties on a track. Water, wind, time of day, weather conditions affect the scent but the dog is capable. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Okay, just in, I was able to get in contact with someone who has had & lived with some Cane Corsos fairly recently. Hers did fine with multiple dogs in the house hold however the caveat on this is that she & her dad tolerated ZERO dog aggression from the time the arrived until they passed on. This is how it's done in my house hold. I just won't put up with it. My dogs all freeze & look to me when my Giant corrects my SPOO. I then correct the pup & tell the Giant to stand down. You CAN NOT DO THIS unless the dog correcting is a dog you know, trust & you are on top of the situation. If my Giant was 3 years old & the SPOO was being a brat I'd correct him & I'd stop her before she had a chance to correct him. This sort of thing can explode so fast you can't blink before there is blood everywhere. But 9 years with the old girl, I know she's given him every opportunity to knock it off before she finally makes her stand. A slow, overly exaggerated snap at his face all the while she's making this sound (you know the kind I'm talking about, the sort that mothers do when they're just about to get drastic with their kids). She said the Cane Corsos she's had were couch potatoes & protectors. That's about it. She said the one thing she had a hard time getting used to was the drool. Lots of drool. Not just when drinking water. So there is that. And from our conversation I would say this is no breed for someone who is not particularly assertive or has trouble being in charge because these dogs require leadership.

I also just got information that explains why I got some of the answers I did. The breed was nearly wiped out in the 80's & had to be revived. During that time it takes some time, a lot of effort, & many breedings to get the breed back to it's normal. Plus you get ya-whos who are self proclaimed experts who jumped on the Corso band wagon because they're big & powerful, tough dogs when it's their ego their feeding rather than taking care of properly breeding. So they'd not be out of the question for living in the house with multiple dogs same sex or not, but you're the cooler. Either you drive the bus or you'll have a mess to clean up & it must start when they're pups. Dirty looks & growls not tolerated & I gotta tell you, if you ever look into the eyes of the CC pup... there's a fire in there & there is a look so you'll have to quickly become an expert on your pup so you can tell the regular face from the 'gonna fight' face. It's very subtle different.

Much the same has been done with the Pit Bull except that breeding has gone bad in most cases. Honestly if you'd met well bred Pits when I was a kid, they weren't prone to going off on humans. I sat between a breeding pair as a very small child & I picked thorns out of the big male, while resting my back against the female's chest. I was in no danger of the dog even though the thorn sites had to be painful. The master got me peroxide & tweezers & I worked for hours. The old boy never moved, never once complained or nipped. And when I had to dig a really deep one out & I cried because I knew it hurt him, he washed my face. These were the dogs of old. I've seen the same male square off against a very mean bull & won. He wasn't used for bullfighting, he was used to save his master when the neighbor's bull came over & tore up fences coming after the man.

So I'm sorry for the confusion. This revival of the breed does explain much of the weird things I've seen & then of course due to them being big, tough dogs you have the idiots that come out of the wood work & bad breeding follows. The breed is supposed to be bred for higher intelligence than your average molosser breed. But when the kids disguised as men get involved & they go for bigger is better, wanting the biggest, baddest, (you know all the extreme they can come up with) they destroy everything they touch in the breed.

So this is current information as my contact had her dogs within recent years.


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

The many standard poodles I have had over the years have all been appropriately protective of person and property. I have also had German Shepherds, but no longer - too much shedding and too many health issues. Actually, I think most dogs are protective of their persons when they perceive a threat.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

I think I'd be more than capable of that. I feel like whenever there's a powerful breed, mankind always feels the need to make them bigger and more aggressive because they feel that's what makes a guard dog a guard dog. It's horrible. I've been looking into Came corsos for awhile, but not in detail. I hope they remain the same.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Johanna,

When I started looking for a guardian SPOO most thought I was a little touched in the head. I had breeders who wouldn't even talk to me despite my explanation that I did NOT want a vicious Poodle. I was looking for a dog with a very good mind who had natural guardian instincts. Natural in that if they perceived a threat the dog would make a show of warning (this is where you hope the bad guys will leave), but if need by the dog will go to the mat to protect the handler. I got laughed at a lot except I trained with 2 SPOOs (a silver & a white) who were nanny guardians (they protected their children from the nanny should that adult ever become aggressive with the children). I've worked with quite a few of these dogs & must admit with the exception of 1 breeder up north (not a Poodle person) I've not seen better dogs for the job of protecting children. These two were trained to trigger an alarm which would alert the parents. The nannies all had to sign a contract & waiver that they understand the conditions that they were working under. Excellent minds on those two dogs & they were so gentle with the kids & their many different pets (including a parrot, a chinchilla, guinea pigs, etc...) but when it came to manwork... bam... they turned on the heat. So I knew it was possible but it took me awhile to find my boy. Right now he's a little goofy, going through another phase on his way to adulthood but just about 2 hours ago when they saw someone on our property that didn't belong, he hit the fence like a Doberman or my Giant Schnauzer. I can do everything through training & rearing except provide the genetics which has that dog made with a leaning toward protecting what's theirs.

Luluspoo,
I wish I had a picture of some of these pups. Think Superman lazer beam eyes & that's when they're happy! LOL I nearly gave a friend cardiac issues when I went to help with one at a pet shop once. The young CC had no desire whatsoever to do this nonsense that was taking place in puppy training class. The poor young lady who was conducting the class thought she'd just take the leash & exert her leadership & the CC pup scared her... badly. Big burly pup & when he growled it sounded like it came from the pits of hades. This young trainer had been in the store when one of her co-workers tried to argue with me about collars & it did not go well for the impertinent youth. She looked at me & mouthed the word, 'help'. I'm thankful to be in the right place at the right time because it would be a shame for her to be scared off training. The young lady had promise. So I introduced myself & offered to work with the CC who at this point had plopped her butt down & was death glaring at the world, including a grunt at the owner. The pup was seriously ticked off. The owner told me what they were doing to socialize the pup & they were doing a good job. Always remember Molosser dog minds click differently than a poodle or a shepherd or doberman. It took 45 minutes to get the dog comfortable & the pup decided I was okay. I made no demands, never tried for the leash, & did not want the pup to go in circles for no reason the pup could see. Sometimes with a serious minded pup like this one, you sneak the training on them in a way that doesn't feel like training. Next I sat in the floor & we had a conversation. "Don't like all this stupid stuff, huh?" Puppy glares & makes a harumphing sound. I put my hand in front of the sitting pup & said in a slow, exaggerated command tone "D-O-W-N" as I tapped the concrete floor with my nails. First pup slapped at my hand & followed it down. I told the handler to praise pup by saying, "GOOD down" try to mimick how i said it & the tone I used. The handler did very well. I basically cleaned the floor at that store with my butt that day but puppy's training came along & had sit, down, heel without Pup ever knowing training was happening. I was a little appalled to learn that class had stopped & they all wanted to watch the show as I'd tuned out everything but the pup & handler. I had to explain this won't work with some of their dogs as their dogs minds just work differently but in digging for information for you here, I ran across this memory in my training files & thought I'd share it. 

I also ran into an article that speaks of how the CC was bred in the US & how some of them have very little to none of the Cane Corso Italiano in them. The Boxer & Bandogge & some others were bred into them which also explains some of the increased dog aggression & such.


----------



## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

There must be some kind of divide between dog owners who want their dogs to be protective, and those who don't, because I have had a hard time understanding this thread. My basic thought is that I don't want my dog to protect me. It's my job to protect myself and my dog. Also, I'm not in any danger that a dog can do anything about (hi, Covid!). My house isn't being robbed, I'm not being mugged in the street, I'm not selling drugs out of my home, I don't have strangers wandering onto my property. It's just me living a reasonably happy safe existence. Is that weird? Are the rest of you regularly being attacked? If you didn't have a protection dog at your side would you truly not be safe?

I acknowledge that many folks are just interested in dog breeds, or anything really, just because it is appealing to them. No other reason needed. I respect that to a point. 

The thing about a guardian dog is if there is truly nothing around for them to legitimately guard against, then what is their purpose? Scaring the mail person or your visiting friends/family? Well, that seems unkind to the postal service and your people. I'm saying this from my perspective, of course, because as I explained above I don't need a dog to help me with these things. I do need a dog to alert me to changes in the environment, and to be a companion and, at a bare minimum, be polite to my invited visitors. My dogs are not to bite anyone. 

So why am I butting in to your nice discussion about guardian dogs? If it's not my thing, move on, right? Well, I have questions that your public discussion created for me (are you not safe?) And, I've been disturbed by comments made about dogs posturing/lunging? around innocent people. And I wonder, is it legitimate for guardian dogs to threaten innocent people? Is this their most frequent purpose in modern day life?

I would like to give a shout out to dogs who guard livestock. This is one form of guarding I do understand. Probably has something to do with all those summers at my grandfather's sheep ranch. Managing livestock and wildlife is a legitimate dog job.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Firstly, I would like to start off by saying that life is very much unpredictable. Not trying to scare anyone or validate a guard type dog, however, anything can happen. One minute you could be living in a cute suburban neighborhood that’s said crime-free with your doors unlocked, watching an awesome documentary and the next you could be attacked in that very same home. Who knows. That's not a threat or to spook anyone, that's reality. I once thought life was peachy! I went to a private college in an upper class neighborhood, but in one year I was stalked twice and nearly robbed on walks home. Out of the three occasions, two happened during the day. Why am I telling you this? It’s surely not a sob story. Again, it’s to reiterate that life is not always guaranteed and no one is 100% safe, no matter where you live. 

Does that mean you should buy hi-tech security cameras and buy a dozen Dobermans right now? No. That’s not what I’m not saying that at all. But only someone living in la la land would think their life is a Disney movie where there’s a happy ending at the end of each day.

As far as dogs go, whether you have a toy or a large dog, some really care enough to want to scope out a scene and alert people of whats to come or if there’s some bad mojo, they want to protect their human. It’s natural for a lot of dogs. Only a few breeds are truly capable of doing it and since it is all they know, I think it is only fair that they know how to do it right without hurting anyone. I’m obviously referring to guard type dogs. It is in their genetics for certain lines, not really something someone can breed out always. Can a dog with a different, more cuddly temperament appear in the litter? Possibly. Nothing wrong with that.

And these dogs aren’t just lunging at people to attack. Yes, some of the dogs Savvy mentioned were in need of training and they mentioned that to prove a point; that certain dogs aren’t for everyone. Others most likely had specific jobs and I’m sure Savvy had their own reasons for their dogs to have their guard up. At the end of the day, it’s all in the training and I personally do not think the lunging is to “kill kill kill” or to frighten people for the thrill. Not everyone is innocent either, may I add.

People have different reasons for why they have a guarding breed. Maybe, someone is scared. Maybe someone just likes those breed and that protection comes with the territory? Or maybe someone like myself just never wants to be in an unsafe predicament, so a protective breed in the future sounds nice.

Also, dogs that protect livestock can very well protect people too putting them in that same category. I’m sure they wouldn’t just protect livestock and not their human, dogs like collies are much smarter than that.

@dogsavvy if I said anything that may be wrong, feel free to correct me.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Newport,

Folks who have never felt the need to increase their personal security rarely understand. That's not a bad thing. I am glad you've no need for such a dog. Not everyone is so fortunate. One only has to watch the news or read the paper to realize not everyone is so lucky. 

You asked if everyone is in danger? Im not a fair judge of this due to what I do. I see a lot of crime victims/survivors. I dont wish to make anyone uncomfortable but I've told my story to thousands by way of teaching. If it disturbs, I can delete post your reading. ((People who might be bothered by crime talk STOP READING HERE)))

As a child I was raised with Dobermans. The dogs' job was to keep mother & the 3 children safe while dad was off from home on his job. In those days a Native American married to what appeared to be a white woman was a BIG issue. Mom was also Indian but genetics threw her blond hair/blue eyes. At age 5 & again at 10 there were abduction attempts made on me. The last round I had to live under 24/7 surveillance at the hospital where my Dad was fighting for his life. At age 15 while looking after a neighbor's horse I was attacked by a police officer & left to bleed to death in a ditch. The young man I was dating knew something was wrong when he came to see me & my dog was ripping at the fence, he and a tribal officer tracked me using that dog & saved my life. The attacker stalked me for weeks after & was not brought to justice although there were some folks that I suspect impressed upon him that leaving me alone was critical for him. As an adult, I worked extensively with all levels of officers & agents around the world with their K9s. I've trained dogs for rape victims, for other violent crime survivors, & a lot of other things including a 80+ year old woman who was raped 3 times by gang bangers in her apartment. I have had 2 officers give me some trouble because they got fired after I banned them from training for abuse to their dogs & it didn't last long but I had to be careful for awhile. ((End of ugliness))

None of these things that happened to me involved drugs. I dont have shady friends. I don't now or have I ever engaged in high risk activities or behavior. As a teen a party meant pizza & movies at a friend's house or playing tag at night at someone's farm. Until the attempted kidnapping, loose livestock was the most excitement in our area. The place where I was attacked by a cop who should never have had a badge??? Very low crime area. As an adult, I tend to live in remote areas. Crowds or heavily populated areas bother me. This can pose higher security risks but we have cameras, carry, & utilize the dogs. Don't think for a moment that I dont see it as part of my duty to protect the dogs the same as they protect me. That's part of the training but they are my eyes, ears, & I pray daily that all their training is never used. But if it comes to it, they'll buy me time to escape, summons help, or reload.

BTW, no my dogs are not scaring the mailman, UPS guys, friends or family. The same as the dog is expected to alert, he also has to learn to throttle back, nothing to see here. My UPS, FEDEx drivers will call out, "gotta new dog?" And I'll tell them. When they have time & can, they'll come up, shake my hand give me packages to help the pup learn. Police officers loved my Giant in Arizona. She was forever pointing them to where someone was hiding out. Once she met them, they weren't allowed on our place without my ok but she would rattle. There was a huge theft issue to support drug habits. Fancy neighborhood but it didn't stop the thieves.

A guardian dog is not to be relied upon as an only measure. They are a family member who has a job. So if you dont have security issues, it's like taking self defense classes feeling you'll never use them. For the dog he will do the job & be content if you're content. Even if trained he doesn't need to bite.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo,

Well said. I was once told by a police officer that people who were never touched by crime seemed foreign to him. I think for those of us who've had those incidents, they change you. A good friend of mine was anti gun. One night while her 3 babies slept & she was home alone she woke & felt strange. She went through to check on the kids & a stranger was standing near her daughter's door. Luckily she scared him & he fled. The next day she signed up for every gun course she could. She's conceal carried certified & lived at the range until her instructor had me talk to her. From sleeping with the doors unlocked to being one of the most security minded people... why? Her 3 children, 2 of which were little girls. 

Thank God for people who have never experienced such darkness. I do what I do because I survived it & if I can help 1 person be safer, I'm good with it.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Luluspoo,
Thank you for taking the time to tell me about your perspectives and motivations regarding guardian breeds. I am sorry to hear that you have been on the receiving end of criminal behavior by people. Those are terrible experiences you have shared. Since I think perhaps I have been interpreted as believing my life is a Disney movie, I will share that I too have been the victim of crimes in the past. I was shot on my college campus with a pellet gun, my home was robbed when I was away, and I have been assaulted more than once (minor injuries only)- all of these things were very awful experiences for me. They play a part in my risk assessment, though interestingly they do not play a part in my current dog choices.

The thing is, a guardian dog doesn't give any reassurances about life. Neither does a gun I guess. I am somewhat accepting of the "no guarantees" clause of real life. I have a safety plan based on realistic risk assessment. I will say that despite some bad experiences, the vast majority of my days do end safely (if that's what you mean by a happy ending).

It sounds like you believe that guardian dogs ideally would be well trained enough to not be threatening to innocent people. I also agree that this is important. I wish everyone felt this way and effectively trained their dogs. 

I think the main thing I have learned from this exchange is that my assumption that there may be some fear-based reasons why people keep guard dogs, in addition to an affinity for the breeds. It seems like there isn't much recognition of what the experience is like for the truly innocent people who must interact with "guarding" behaviors from dogs. It is threatening to have a guard dog give you the hard stare and move towards you with posturing. I personally dislike it very much. It feels similar to having a gun pulled on you. 

For a person who never goes to a home that I am not invited to, and who does not trespass- this should never happen to me, right? But it has. It kind of seems like by making me feel unsafe, the dog's owner feels more powerful, and therefore safer.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Newport said:

And, I've been disturbed by comments made about dogs posturing/lunging? around innocent people. And I wonder, is it legitimate for guardian dogs to threaten innocent people? Is this their most frequent purpose in modern day life?


In training you teach the dog about threat vs human who just walks differently. My dogs arent lunging at innocent people with the exception of some shady characters who were indeed portraying innocent people.

My Malinois lunging at my husband was not without cause. He was demonstrating a move that the dog is taught to defend against. 2 fingers clipped over her muzzle (not in a harsh way) ended said "response" & she allowed him to pet her as soon as I spoke to her but he got side eye for awhile. She was cautious for a bit. 

A threat to innocent people... it is not threat for a dog to bark out at a person at the gate or door. It is a clear alert. This is the most that most guardians will do...in their lifetime. "Woof, hey, visitor here." If the person were to try to enter without permission there will be a threat. 

I can promise Newport, youd be welcome in my home. My guardians are put away for anyone uncomfortable in their presence. I never leave anyone to deal with one of my dogs. Although the Chihuahua, Boo Boo would try to talk you into kisses. My Collie likes her scratches. The guardians are aloof. It takes me about 3 seconds to see someone is uncomfortable with a dog

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Unfortunately, the average person's exposure to guard breeds is rarely ideal. Around here, more often than not, they are poorly bred, poorly placed, poorly trained, and poorly managed. I've been on the receiving end of the hard stare, while minding my own business, strolling in the sunshine at a classic car show. The owner was oblivious and yet my skin still crawls at the memory. I was never afraid of dogs until I moved to rural America.

I appreciate this discussion. I just wish everyone were so thoughtful when it came to these breeds.


----------



## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Dogsavvy,
You must have been posting while I was writing. Thank you for sharing your experiences and your trauma. I am not a stranger to trauma, but I have not experienced the extreme physical abuse and lawlessness that you describe experiencing. I can only imagine how that shaped you. It appears you took those experiences and have used them to impact the world around you for the good.

PTP has also just posted a comment which is exactly what I was thinking. You are an ambassador for guard dogs, an example of excellence (though I would never be comfortable with a dog willing to attack my husband, but I hear you pointing out it was a trained behavior), the majority of others seem to be cut from a different cloth. Which is my way of saying there is a problem with guard dogs, and it is many of the owners and breeders. Whether it is poor training, or poor temperaments, or both, people like PTP, myself, and lots more have had negative interactions without cause. 

I will answer my own question I asked above. It is not legitimate for guard dogs to threaten innocent people. It is a tragedy that it happens so frequently. And here is my final guess: use of guard dogs in the ethical manner you have described is the exception. I would like to be wrong about that, but in order for me to be wrong I think the population of guard dogs would need to be very small to represent the population of humans with the right temperament, knowledge and commitment to handle them appropriately.

For clarity, I want to add that I think the work you do to provide trained guard dogs to trauma victims is commendable. It must feel for those you help like getting their life back, like moving past the feeling of victimhood to feeling empowered and safe.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

PeggytheParti,

It can be unsettling & the creepy part to me is the total unawareness of the handler
The worst I had was a Dogo Argento, HUGE dog. His owner can in with a dog out of control & the collar broke as the dog lunged. Trainers scattered & we had a mess of training students who didn't know what to do. I summoned my best drill sergeant voice & recalled that dog, slapped my leg & am still stunned he responded. I hooked him up using my leash as a slip collar & returned him to the guy in charge. Could have been a blood bath as that dog was dog aggressive & hot to bite. He rammed me a couple of test shots but I corrected him & his testing of me was over.

I think I was the lone person with wet britches including the facilities owner. I went & sat down before my knees failed me. Big dog. Big jaws. Will never forget that day



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

OMG, Dogsavvy... I would be frozen, I think. We hired a roofing contractor last summer who had an 9wk old Cane Corso pup who he took in his truck everywhere with him. He was adorable and one day I ask if it was OK to meet him. The guy said yes, and the pup came up wagging and happy but got excited when being petted ad bit my hand so forcefully I could not get him off of hand without assistance. I had his bite impression and puncture wounds when he finally released. ...and that was playing! Seeing the raw strength of bite in that young pup really brought home what damage a full grown dog could inflict.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Newport wrote: 

"I will answer my own question I asked above. It is not legitimate for guard dogs to threaten innocent people. It is a tragedy that it happens so frequently. And here is my final guess: use of guard dogs in the ethical manner you have described is the exception. I would like to be wrong about that, but in order for me to be wrong I think the population of guard dogs would need to be very small to represent the population of humans with the right temperament, knowledge and commitment to handle them appropriately.

For clarity, I want to add that I think the work you do to provide trained guard dogs to trauma victims is commendable. It must feel for those you help like getting their life back, like moving past the feeling of victimhood to feeling empowered and safe. "


First off thank you & I am humbled by your kind words. To be thought of as an ambassador for the protection dogs is a very high compliment to me & one I take to heart. 

If you've not been around it then it very hard to fathom because for every one of us that takes all of this as serious there are many who are Neanderthals. They think their big bad dog is a reflection of their status, their importance, how 'dangerous' they are, & implies their verility. This is what's happened in the breeding of our guardian dogs. For some of these people taking a dog to one of their bite sport competitions is very much like the gorilla who beats on his chest to show the others how important he is. And I nearly sprain my eyeballs from rolling them so hard. This stupidity is weakness. Weakness has become common place & that weakness is in the breeder first then he breeds his mess into the dogs. They make excuses or they focus on a bigger, meaner, bad*** dog. What this translates to is they are playing to their own ego. That makes a mess of working dogs & produces bullies instead of guardians. 

But believe it or not there are many handlers of guardian dogs out there who spend thousands of dollars, lots of hours working those dogs, coming to someone like me to train & hone the skills but also to stabilize the dog. Like people, dogs make mistakes. It's best if that happens on the training field, not on the street. When I had an issue with a dog of mine that I'd never dealt with before I found someone who has dealt with this on a master's level & it took a trip out of country & we got it figured out. I then use the knowledge I learned to help others.

For some they get the dog due to the fear of what might happen. For me, it's quite opposite. I know what can happen, I can't control all the what if's. I can control me. I can train with my dogs & we can work together as a team. You train for the best possible outcome to the worst scenarios. I am at ease with the dogs. I don't get to work the victims' dogs programs like I used to but I keep my hand in. Every time I get a call or check in on someone & they've made it to the ATM with their dog & feel that sense of empowerment, that they could do this after a mugging. That they were able to stay home alone with the dog without medication or having a meltdown, it's a win for the good guys. That is what counts to me. I have to step back from it now & again because sometimes I find myself becoming too... something. It's like being swallowed by darkness. So I step away, renew myself & when I'm ready I go back at it again. To me, it's very important. For every person who encounters those monsters, it takes more courage to survive than to die, because when you live you are forever changed then you gotta figure out how to navigate a world you had once only heard about.


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I live in a fairly safe neighborhood. But even the safest of places can be dangerous. A couple of months ago, somebody was shot and killed a couple of blocks away from my home, in their own place. They were my age. And of course as a girl I grew up hearing "don't trust strange guys, keep an eye out on walks, don't ever walk in the dark"... To me a guardian would be more of a safety net than anything, giving me alert time to maybe grab a weapon and call the police before I try to escape from my house. And I would hope that the dog being with me would be enough of a deterrent to keep nasty people away when I am simply out walking, and if not, those people are going to go after me, not the dog, and I would expect the dog to hold them off while I call for help. Can't take care of the dog if you're not alive and capable to do so. Biting would be a last-straw kind of thing, and I wouldn't expect the dog to act aggressive around other, non-insane people. 

There's a German Shepherd that lives on my block. Gorgeous dog. The owner stopped in the trail once to look up at the trees, and the dog leaned beside her, watching me very carefully as I walked away (this was a t in the road, and my destination was on the left rather than the right). But I bet if I had walked up to it in that moment, the dog would have accepted me passing without a single bark, so long as I didn't act weird. The dog walks wonderfully beside other people, especially kids. Greets them politely. Doesn't raise a fuss if people walk up to it. That's really what I'm looking for when I say I want a guardian. 

Crazy macho people that ruin the breeds, though, really give my patience a run for its money. Just... Whhhyyy?! There should be a test to own them, honestly.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Raven's Mom,

Imagine being in the bite suit with a full grown one who is being trained to eat you. I have joked before that I do NOT taste like chicken. There used to be a picture used at the place they train military recruits with K9s. It is a picture of the quad muscle removed from the leg bone of an adult soldier. This was done by a Malinois. The photo was used & every potential dog handler had to go look at it very closely to understand the power of what they handle. The Molosser breeds (like the Cane Corso) are capable of doing damage to bones. My wrist is x-small. I have dogs I cannot work in a bite suit or I have to wear special bite bars & that puts the dogs' teeth, jaws in jeopardy. The Beaucerons I worked were brutal. The Cane Corso & some of the others like the Kengal would be pain, lots of tons of pain. When those molossers don't release wow. That Cane Corso pup may be among those who have little of the true Cane Corso Italiano blood & may have the boxer & the Pit Bull to thank for his clamp. I'm still working with breeders to learn to distinguish the difference. Thanks to this discussion I am fascinated. The owner would likely not know, in fact there are breeders in the US who believe they have the true CC but do not. I met one during my search & he had dna tests & found zero CC in his line.

You bring up a very important point in this discussion in this encounter with the Cane Corso puppy. Imagine that much power except in an adult. What you have to decide when selecting a breed for guardian work is if you can handle the aftermath. Dog vs human = a mess. It ain't pretty. When the breed I can tell you there are many people who want a dog for this work but they are in no way prepared for the time commitment, the way you have to live when you have such a dog, & you are to some degree "on" more than the dog is. LOL. When someone is at your home, you are all ears, eyes, feel. Yeah, you do this long enough your dog comes to attention you can almost feel it.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Floofypoodle,
The good news is that having a large breed that looks like it will give you trouble is most of the times enough & that is a blessing. I have talked to a number of former prisoners or those still behind bars to find out exactly what made the monster pick this lady instead of that one. Of course there are the serials who are picking a type. That's one thing but over all the biggest answer was, dogs make noise & draw attention to what you're doing. For what you want, most of the guarding breeds can do it, you'll just want to find something not too hot & that you can live with should they ever have to do it.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Newport said:


> Luluspoo,
> Thank you for taking the time to tell me about your perspectives and motivations regarding guardian breeds. I am sorry to hear that you have been on the receiving end of criminal behavior by people. Those are terrible experiences you have shared. Since I think perhaps I have been interpreted as believing my life is a Disney movie, I will share that I too have been the victim of crimes in the past. I was shot on my college campus with a pellet gun, my home was robbed when I was away, and I have been assaulted more than once (minor injuries only)- all of these things were very awful experiences for me. They play a part in my risk assessment, though interestingly they do not play a part in my current dog choices.
> 
> The thing is, a guardian dog doesn't give any reassurances about life. Neither does a gun I guess. I am somewhat accepting of the "no guarantees" clause of real life. I have a safety plan based on realistic risk assessment. I will say that despite some bad experiences, the vast majority of my days do end safely (if that's what you mean by a happy ending).
> ...


 I agree with you on that, it can be traumatizing for those who aren’t (and sometimes are) experiences with these sort of breeds and wonder if they’ll harm a truly innocent person like themselves. I cannot speak for most trainers or even dog owners, but I hope the interaction would be dealt with in a polite manner. That goes for any dog too since people just don’t feel safe around large animals period. I’m no expert, but I feel the best any owner with common sense can do is put the animal in a different room before and while a guest remains in their household. I mean, I don’t even have a large dog but I always thought it was the right thing to do even if my dogs are little ankle biters; if my guest do not feel safe around my dogs, I’ll put them away.




PeggyTheParti said:


> Unfortunately, the average person's exposure to guard breeds is rarely ideal. Around here, more often than not, they are poorly bred, poorly placed, poorly trained, and poorly managed. I've been on the receiving end of the hard stare, while minding my own business, strolling in the sunshine at a classic car show. The owner was oblivious and yet my skin still crawls at the memory. I was never afraid of dogs until I moved to rural America.
> 
> I appreciate this discussion. I just wish everyone were so thoughtful when it came to these breeds.


It really sucks too. I don’t want to sound cliche, but they’re not all ready to attack immediately, even if it is their job. However, poor breeders and trainers have given them this reputation. Everyone talks about pitbulls and I truly loved that breed as a child. My family didn’t get them from top breeders when I was little, but most we owned were raised in family homes with parents that had a great on-and-off switch to their aggression. Yes, pitbulls are aggressive. I don’t care what anyone says, it’s very much present. It’s all about redirecting with this breed though and keeping it there! I’m no professional trainer, but I know how to handle a good pitbull. Emphasis on good.

Nowadays, most are poorly bred, dramatic and almost too much to deal with. They’ve kind of dropped to my least favorite breed. I’m too tired to deal with one and I can’t stand half the people that own them! The ones that own the biters are usually people that sympathize with the breed, rescue or buy one with no research then they’re aggressively playing with the dog. I’ve seen people play biting games with their pups, thinking it’s just a cute, harmless activity.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

dogsavvy said:


> Raven's Mom,
> 
> Imagine being in the bite suit with a full grown one who is being trained to eat you. I have joked before that I do NOT taste like chicken. There used to be a picture used at the place they train military recruits with K9s. It is a picture of the quad muscle removed from the leg bone of an adult soldier. This was done by a Malinois. The photo was used & every potential dog handler had to go look at it very closely to understand the power of what they handle. The Molosser breeds (like the Cane Corso) are capable of doing damage to bones. My wrist is x-small. I have dogs I cannot work in a bite suit or I have to wear special bite bars & that puts the dogs' teeth, jaws in jeopardy. The Beaucerons I worked were brutal. The Cane Corso & some of the others like the Kengal would be pain, lots of tons of pain. When those molossers don't release wow. That Cane Corso pup may be among those who have little of the true Cane Corso Italiano blood & may have the boxer & the Pit Bull to thank for his clamp. I'm still working with breeders to learn to distinguish the difference. Thanks to this discussion I am fascinated. The owner would likely not know, in fact there are breeders in the US who believe they have the true CC but do not. I met one during my search & he had dna tests & found zero CC in his line.
> 
> You bring up a very important point in this discussion in this encounter with the Cane Corso puppy. Imagine that much power except in an adult. What you have to decide when selecting a breed for guardian work is if you can handle the aftermath. Dog vs human = a mess. It ain't pretty. When the breed I can tell you there are many people who want a dog for this work but they are in no way prepared for the time commitment, the way you have to live when you have such a dog, & you are to some degree "on" more than the dog is. LOL. When someone is at your home, you are all ears, eyes, feel. Yeah, you do this long enough your dog comes to attention you can almost feel it.


 I dunno how this slipped my mind, my uncle used to own a mastiff. I want to say it was a neapolitan mastiff. Almost the spitting image of Fluffy from Harry Potter LOL. I wonder if their temperament is similar to corsos? My uncle’s dog was pretty intimidating. I used to shake a little upon first site as a child. He would put the dog up during Christmas parties then bring it out once all the guest were gone, excluding my family. This dog would stand at a distance, give you a lion’s roar then wag his little tail before sitting on your feet and demanding attention.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

PtP, Newport - very much appreciate your concerns. I too, have seen some worrying guardian breeds. Most I have seen are either very aggressive with clueless owners, or very nervous and ,in my opinion, though not threatening me at that moment , a bite risk. And I admit - I have no desire to work with or own some of the dogs dogsavvy has worked with! I dont think anyone is advocating for dogs who attack people without provocation, to me, that would be an example of EXACTLY what i dont want. I like dogs that communicate. I personally like like dogs who will stand off a problem better than those that hide or cower. The ones that hide or cower are the ones i worry about biting, as people are stupid, and will chase them.

I don't have ethical qualms about owning a guard breed - with care taken, and an understanding of the responsibility of it. A stable, confident guardian should not be a threat to most innocent people. Yes - dogs posture. And yes they escalate if their posturing isnt respected. a stare turns into a growl turns into a snarl and a lunge until they figure out what it takes to fix the problem. I think that is good - this is what I want. I don't want an attack dog, i want a dog that tells things that are frightening to go away or else - with good judgement to figure out what is truly frightening or threatening. And a dog that settles when it determines the thing is not a threat. And yes, a dog who will follow through if a threat continues to approach despite their best efforts to get it to go away (though I hope this never happens, and it is my job to make sure it doesnt need to happen if at all possible).

I think this whole discussion started out of the question - how do you find a good breeder of stable, confident guardian dogs and what do you look for in a puppy? What breeds are better?

I have felt as much threat from someones poorly handled chihuahua or small terrier as most guard breeds. Other than the odd clueless owner who picks up a shelter dog with aggression issues "to save them", without a firm grasp of body language, and brings their dogs into situations the dogs are uncomfortable in, or pitbull owners who refuse to believe they have a guard breed, most guard dog breed owners who i have met seem to understand what they have and treat their dogs somewhat responsibly.

Do i need a guard dog? No, not right now, and right now, it would be irresponsible to have one . I am not set up for it, as i still have to take Annie to a dog park for exercise as i dont have a fenced area to run her, and i dont think most guard breeds are good fits for a dog park.but, i grew up with dogs that would take on a bear for me, so guarding is a trait i value. 

In a few years, maybe 10 years, when i live alone, have a large well fenced yard, or maybe live in the country? Yes, definitely, espeically if in the country. Rural crime is a major issue, even here in Canada. Its good to have a watchful dog to warn people off and deter them, rather than call and wait for the police to drive and arrive 30-45 min later. And yeah- a gun in the house isnt much of a deterrant but a dog, especially a guard breed, definitely is.

Regarding occasionally making someone uncomfortable? I admit I am callous enough that I dont mind, if i have control of the dog. Especially if i am also feeling uncomfortable. I agree dogs shouldnt make people uncomfortable most of the time. But even walking Annie down the street in a busy area, her tail wagging, eyes happy and bright - my very good natured poodle - i meet people who are afraid of her. She is big, and black, and a lot of people (especially recent immigrants from countries where guard dogs and feral dogs are common, and pets are not) are afraid of dogs. Our St. Bernard - easily the friendliest, most people friendly dog I have ever met - people would cross the street to avoid her. 
If I were to limit my large dog ownership to only those not considered "guard" breeds, I would limit to retrievers, pointers, collies, and hounds. Other than not being fond of most of those breeds, all of those breed types(ok, all dogs) can be aggressive too- even poodles! Labs are some of the most common biters - just because of how common they are, and two different houses with labs are my least favourite places to walk past right now. Herding breeds can nip children. 

In my apartment - Annie scared the downstairs tenants. Annie is a sweetheart, i dont think she ever even barked at them, i always had her leashed and kept well away from them. They were from the Middle east, had no friendly dog experience. If they came home while i was in the front yard- Annie and I would back off, to the other side of the yard, with Annie in a sit or down stay, while i chatted with them, her thumping her tail, or went for for a short walk and they went inside. I felt badly for them, but later had the woman admit having Annie upstairs made her feel safer when she was home alone, as my dog would bark and scare people off if someone tried to break in !

I like big dogs, and unfortunately, not everyone is comfortable with that. I do take precautions. I will cross the street if someone is uncomfortable, or take her to the side and put her in a sit, or put my dog behind a babygate or a closed door if people who are uncomfortable are over or I am expecting a parcel. But, no matter what I do, I own a big, black dog, and she scares some people. And honestly, I am content with that.

I do need to have control enough i can switch off the dog if i deem it is safe (and yes, sometimes that means i need cooperation from the person she is uncomfortable with). I also definitely think it takes two to cause an issue most times. Yes, threat discrimination is a really important thing to learn (hence tons of early socialization and confidence building stuff). But people are stupid, and people advancing on a posturing dog are extra stupid. All the dogs i have ever had - if they are unsure, or posturing, and i speak nicely to the "threat" - crisis averted, its ok. Same as most times I meet someone across the street with a dog- not reactive barking, but barking/posturing from fear or uncertainty and a desire to guard? "Hi, how are you?" And a few words of friendly chat as i veer away and give space usually diffuses it. But those who silently follow or silently approach, heading strait for the dog? Dumb. Bad human. Honestly, the most practice/observations I have with this are with Trixie, our yorkie - hardly a guard breed, but a dog who is very unsure about a lot of things.

This is not to say i condone dog reactivity - Annie has a bad habit of frustration barking at dogs and some people walking by our porch. She doesn't think they are threats, she just wants to get to them. Still not acceptable, so I am working on it.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Add text









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

ForWantofPoodle, by far if every person who came to me for training had your good sense, I would still be running a full scale training operation & enjoying myself. I am not saying that for any reason except it's the truth. You'll not have problems with a dog because you have a clear picture of what you need & how to get it.

The picture above of my Giant tells a story. It's in the eyes & the head wrinkle. Black dogs & their eyes, especially when they needed a brow trim (ugh) but this is an indication that someone is coming, she's identified them & she DOES NOT like the person (& the person has earned this opinion). It didn't occur to me until today how Newport might have been taking the comment when I said people who come to the house assist in training. See I've been doing this so long I forget people don't often do this anymore. So here's the type of training, it's zero contact with the visitor.

So lets say I have a visitor, a neighbor named Bob. I'm new to the area. Don't know if Bob is a good guy or not but he's come to the house to introduce himself. My dogs will have barked to let me know a stranger has arrived. That's true with most dogs. My guardians will be put away. My little Chihuahuas will likely be one in my arms, one in my husbands. Bob comes in, has a seat. If he is dog friendly & would like to be visited Boo goes & will likely end up in his lap. I'm telling you, if Boo Boo doesn't like a person get them out of the house quick because she loves everyone. Then Tink will circle & woof & grumble & finally touch them with her nose or sometimes will shock everyone & hop up in the lap. Because I don't know Bob my young Spoo will be in his crate & if Bob notices the dog we will ask him not to approach the crate, the pup is in training. (FYI: guardians in a crate with a stranger looming over them... not a winning recipe for the dog not to feel cornered). Most folks will back away from the crate, maybe peep in & say, "hi buddy" & go on. But the initial training happens when Bob leaves. Visits over. If he's nice we might say, "Come back & see us". Once his car is gone I will release the pup & observe. The pup will track him through the house & go to where Bob spent most of his time. You may get a wide variety of reactions. I've seen the pup growl (this is usually your super alpha guardian types) to the pup whimpering (if the pup does this you'll want to remember this. It could be illness or injury with your guest & you'll note this for future visits (not to embarrass Bob but to be mindful that pain meds or medication can throw a person's smell off & draw a reaction from your dogs that's not fun so you note it & are SUPER careful when Bob returns). Next I will let the senior boss hoss Giant out. Now she doesn't play. She's going to do her own dna tests & I'll know soon if Bob is tolerated. The fun one is you check the drive & let the pup go out the front door so he can trail Bob to where the truck was parked. Again, read your dog. THIS is an early form of training that guardian. I always tell mine "go see" & zoom their noses get to work & they are ON that track. I let them sniff & then recall. 

One place we lived we did not know alcohol was such a problem there as were drugs with certain folks. This can trigger a response in a dog because the person is not 'okay' in the dog's perception. And yes there are times you'll have the dog wait or 'easy' the dog but you don't tell him it's okay. 

Today we hired a man to do some work around our house. He had zero dog contact & it wasn't until he left that he heard more than a woof or two. My Giant had to go snorting & being all feisty but it wasn't because the man was there, she had to go zoom the fence to ward off ninja squirrels & watch for the rabbits she pretends to chase. And true guardian she got the high ground atop the hill before she let our worker know she had eyes on him. The key was I warned him I need to let the dogs out but they would be behind the fence at all times & I would be present, he even watched me check the gate before. He's worked for us before & now know he's not going to be put in harm's way. Now good friends of ours, yes, it's not uncommon tell them to go get lost  I have a dog I need to track them with. But of course my friends know me & get a kick out of this. Oh the tales they tell about coming to my house & being told to get lost... literally, LOL


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm going to move this thread to the Other Animals sub-forum, as poodles aren't really the stars.  Thank you for the thoughtful, informative discussion. I'm learning so much.


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

How do you find a trainer that will work with you to achieve the level of training required for a guardian? More specifically, I guess, how do we find our dogsavvy? I would imagine a novice trying to train by themselves would end up being a disaster, but so would a bad trainer. I'm not in any position to own a guardian, and probably won't be able to for about half a decade, but would working with such a trainer (i.e. helping with the occasional classes) for a little bit help to give us an idea of what needs to be done?


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

That's so nice [emoji847] The best thing you can do is visit trainers in your area , see if you can find a trainer who trains how you want. For me, I cannot go the route of the trainers who bark out commands or go for the shock collars. I dont get what i want from a dog by zapping them...ever. I take that very seriously. Why? Imagine I take you & train you to be my bodyguard but I speak Greek & you speak English. There are bound to be mistakes & confusion but instead of making effort with a translator I put a gadget on you & shock you. Not nice & not likely you'll want to protect me. (I wouldn't blame you). Training is the translator between handler & dog. Trainers who jump to the zapper are in a hurry, lazy, OR dont know better. Dogs are sensitive unless bred or trained not to be. 

So in searching for a trainer, look for someone who loves the work more than the $ they make from it. Look for someone fascinated with the work & is eager to go see what they can learn. If they think they have all the answers (unless it's an old someone with a LOT of miles of training) move on. The Masters I know are still learning. Observe them train & ask if your views on training & dogs mesh. For example i dont train with food or toys so to go to a trainer who rewards or motivates with food or toys... bad match. (You dont want a dog that can be bought off or distracted for a guard). 

I would get as much experience as possible. You'll kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince. I know I did. It's sad but I've been on field with people not fit to man a pooper scooper. And I've put myself between some dogs & their abusers. I try to mind my own business but some things put me into motion. It's my instinct to protect them just as their kind has always done for me. Sort of like breathing. So brace yourself & find you someone who doesn't see your safety as a game. Doesn't mean you wont have fun. You will. 

Ask questions about their methods & philosophies but watch what they do in training. The dogs tell the truth

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

I just really wonder what makes a “good” trainer and what makes a bad one. I've heard so many (what I believed) to be decent trainer’s methods shot down or criticized, accused of animal cruelty and I’m not saying all the accusations are wrong, but I just wonder what’s right? For the long run too, nothing that’s a fad.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo,

I'm sorry this is gonna be long. I can't seem to revise it down enough & I'm better showing you through parables & examples. So here we go!

This is the part where I take a big sigh & say, it's a little like religion. (No, I'm not going to go religion on you here but let me use it as an example because it's one of the things families, friends, coworkers don't often talk about because it's so hot-button topic). Okay so you have the Baptists, Catholics, Evangelical, Full Gospel, Church of Christ, Methodists, Non-Denominational, Jews, Budahists, all the way over the other end with the moon/stars people, the athiests, & even satanic worshipers. On my little list here (there are FAR more than I could think of). So that first part of the group can agree there is a God, the middle people have their own take on things, the latter believes there is not God & the Satanists think we're worshiping the wrong team. If you get people from all denominations, beliefs, etc... & you talk about the weather, the nice dinner you just had or even a movie... you'll likely have a pleasant time. Let anyone light the match on the topic of religion & you will have everything from the very quiet people who don't want to get in on this to the very loud ones who are trying to do conversions on the spot. You can have wars & busted friendships & family over it.

Dog training methods & the discussion of good or bad is just about like talking religion. You have the clicker trainers, no correction/aversion-positive only, the some aversion/correction but not too much, you have correction based crowd, & then those who go into extremes that I shall not go into because it scares my keyboard when I do. So if you ask, "what's best?" "what makes the good ones?" You will get answers that vary but everyone thinks their way is best.

Honestly & probably a little too bluntly, I will not ever trust my own personal safety to a dog who can not be corrected. This would be a little like hiring a bodyguard who had never been told no. So he wants to protect you with a machine gun at a high society event & now you're telling him, "no, sir, you may not bring your Rambo M-16 military weapon to protect me at a fundraiser for sick children." And the bodyguard, having never been told no has a melt down like a two year old. And yes ma'am, I have witnessed this personally on my own training field. If you know anyone that's been in the military, they weren't trained with time-outs & by ignoring their bad or incorrect behavior. They were trained by some drill sergeant who they hated but had little choice but to respect. They got torn down & built back up. Luckily the dog doesn't need torn down unless he's been let become truly awful (bully, high levels of inappropriate aggression, etc...)other than teaching obedience, opening that translator between human & dog through training so there is a means to communicate. Will there be unpleasant or scary moments (for handler & dog), yep, probably so. Dogs make mistakes. Sometimes when they get frustrated the dog will lash back on the handler. I've had pinches, punctures. Had my best male sink his canines in my right thigh when he sparked on a dog next to us & I stepped forward instead of back. He was wrong for going at the other dog but I make a mistake by not stepping back & using both vocals & leash/collar to correct & prevent. I have a lovely reminder in the shape of a tear drop & I still remember that day with great fondness. It's my only "tattoo" of one of the top dogs I have owned. Not because of the bite but because when he hit my leg, I felt him pull his power from the bite, he literally removed his canine from my leg by choice, took his nose & shoved my leg out of the way so he could proceed. It is the day I learned just how much control over the bite the dog has. On occasion you will see a dog that spins out of control during training & you use leash & collar to bring the dog's front up on his toes so he can't harm himself or someone else. It's not pleasant to see or do but the dog has left his thinking mind & gone into a place where he's fighting & not in a thinking way. If you are new to training & you go watch a trainer & something like this happens it can f-r-e-a-k that new person out! What a monster that trainer is. Well maybe s/he is a monster & maybe it's where the dog was in that moment & the only safe thing to do until you can access the mind again. Most of the time when this happens it's the result of poor handling or a dog with a really hot temper, rarely it can be a mental defect. (This is also why it's critical to have the right equipment on a dog & on properly so at worst it's uncomfortable.)

I'm going to make a separate post because this one's getting too long


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Okay, I now have a new computer which will hopefully not delete things & shut down mid-type. Ugh!

So one of the marks of a good trainer can only be seen when everything goes terribly wrong. I was once watching a famous tv trainer lose it on air. Oh he didn't go bats & start yelling & screaming like I've seen trainers do but when he got bit (which he pushed the dog until it had little other choice) he was shaking, fire in his eyes, labored breathing, etc... you might think this normal but a really good trainer should know that emotions have to be kept in check & you never go to a dog when you're mad...EVER. On the flip side I saw a high level pro get bitten & his voice remained calm, he gave instruction to the handler. There was no foul language, no raised voice, no anger. He did his job, he assured the handler that it was "Good this happened here & not on the street. Here we can work on the issue." He was sincere. This is the good kind.

As far as methods, there are probably dozens of way to teach the simple sit. I read one book that said to press on puppy's hindquarters & place him in a sit position. When I read this I go very easy & apply gentle pressure until puppy tries to figure out what I want & wa-la... a sit. Praise puppy, "good sit". My ex neighbor could read the same book & puppy gets its butt slammed down hard enough to make me wonder how the poor thing has hips. The method is not faulty, it's the person administering the technique. This is very important. I was taught a technique to heel bump a dog who ignores the sit command when the dog is not responding to other methods. An owner saw me do this once & became upset. "You kicked that dog". I turned & stood next to the man & applied the same method to him on his calf muscle. It took 3 times before he caught on. "OH, is that how you did it?" Yes, you're not kicking the dog in the rump. You're bumping much like you would if I was touching a friend's arm to get them to look at something, nudge... nudge. For some dogs this works better. For others they move their tush out of your way & it creates miscommunication. So for every dog you own or as a trainer you handle, you have a hat full of ways & you just have to figure out what THIS student responds best to. Then you have to watch how the various techniques are administered.

Back to temperamental trainers... it's very important for anyone seeking a guardian trainer to work with, it can never be more critical than to find a trainer who is the calm in the eye of the storm. Everything could be going to pot around him & he's just calming people down, directing & redirecting, taking a dog that's out of control & keeping everyone safe & bringing the dog back to its thinking mind. He is not the guy breathing through his teeth, raging through his eyes, sweating & trembling & being mad at the dog. Dogs make mistakes that's why it's training. If you can't check the emotions & temper at the door... do NOT train or attempt to train guardians. Go talk to any coach male or female who has worked with boxers, wrestlers... go to basic & talk to the instructors who bring our soldiers, policemen, etc.. along in training. They get mad & sweat & sometimes blood flies. It has to happen in training. But the instructors are no good if their way of handling it is to beat up all their subjects. Eventually the 'subjects' gang up on the instructor. Dogs are no different. I didn't get nailed by my dog that day out of respect, I got nailed because I screwed up. But if I was the sort to beat him up, try to scare him or make him submit... you're gonna get what you earned at some point. 

Most people these days are anti correction. I've been told so often that I'm an old relic training in the dark ages. I never claimed to be new age or modern. My dogs are not fearful, not even of corrections. Yes, if they really do something that I have to give a strong correction they do look chastised however they have zero fear of me, my leash, or my collars. I pick up the leash & here they come. That does not happen in fear based training. When I am training with a dog, the dog has a warning correction word (for lack of better term for it). So if the dog is about to break the down/stay. I see him raise up & I say, "pfui it", the dog knows if he doesn't go back into position I will give a lead & collar correction. Likewise if I 'pfui it' & he goes back down, I will praise "good pfui". Sounds odd I know but it's effective. The last thing he was told was pfui... he fixed himself.. good pfui. My use of tone makes a difference between correction/warning & praise. My Poodle got 'pfui it' the other day & rolled over on his back, covered his eyes with his paw, peeped out at me. (He thinks he's so cute). I said nothing, laughing inside, outside I am stoic. He rolled up into a proper down position & was praised. He sat there looking rather regal & important. So if I have to get to the leash & collar correction I have a different correction word/phrase & it's been so long since my 9 year old has heard it that I think I startled her the other day when she heard it. She boiled out of the bathroom (she is guarding our world from monsters in the pipes in there) to see who she needed to pinch. I relieved her of that duty & she harumphed & went back to her duties.

So you see it's not only the techniques, it's also equipment properly applied & used, it's techniques properly applied & used, etc... so many things to become a good trainer. If you seek the knowledge of the Dogman, it'll take most of your life to get there. I have a ways to go yet but I'm learning, always. Self proclaimed 'experts' are scary people to me. I've not met any who know it all, far too many seen & done it all types. I met one a couple of weeks ago. In all her discussions I learned she's been training 3 whole years, has a master trainer's certificate. So cute, but so dangerous. I have met many who are still seeking, still excited to learn the ways of the dog. Those people... great hope for their future. 

If there are specific techniques you'd like to discuss we can pick them apart together.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

It was so hard writing this, I have a constant ad popping up. Anyway, I think the training technique I seem to like most (but that receives the most criticism from what I know) is what’s referred to as the pack technique. I already have two dogs and I can admit that there are certain things that I can most likely work on with my dog and A LOT that can be worked on with my bf’s dog (this dog is a chihuahua and follows absolutely no rules whatsoever, it takes a long time to incorporate something into his life and even vets discourage certain ideas/training ideas. It’s mostly due to an illness he had as a puppy). I also want to just add that although I hint at both dogs having different owners, responsibilities are shared and whatever we do with one dog, we do it with the other. 

I’m very interested in the “pack training” technique because from what I’ve heard, (and please correct me it’s not true!) although it does create a dog hierarchy with the right owner and trainer, it can prevent serious fights from breaking out amongst multiple dogs within a household. I don’t want an abundance of dogs. I just know that in two years, I want a poodle and whenever my boyfriend and I get married then settle into a house, my next dog will be a guard type breed. That’ll be four dogs total and I want there to be a chance that I can manage them. Matter a fact, I want there to be a chance that I can get another dog without considering one might be too aggressive or one might attack the dog, etc. I do not have that problem at all now, nor have I ever, but still it crosses my mind. I’ve also read that the pack technique helps a dog catch on to what is expected of an owner. For example, I’ve watched a YouTuber who likes to walk their pack off leash at a secluded area. Whenever this person called their pack, if a dog was goofing off and not listening the owner trusted the alpha of the pack to correct that certain dog with a bark or soft nip at the lower legs. The same thing went for jumping on family members. It wasn’t tolerated by the pack and in their own way, the dogs taught younger pups that this was not right. 

Whether it’s wrong or right, I really found it fascinating. It’s kind of like the trainer/owner set the rules and everyone followed. Of course, a major issue I found with this is the fact that packs could never go to dog parks or have friendly dog visitors such as a family member bringing their own dog over to say hello. The dogs just didn’t take kindly to it. It was very much similar to a wolf pack v lone wolf standoff. Maybe that’s why people don’t like the idea of it? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

The problem with the pack stuff is leader sets rules but others enforce them. I couldn't do that. I have 1 strong guardian who is senior dog, 83 pound Giant. Next in age, 6 yr old Chihuahua 6 pounds, Collie 5 yr old 65 pounds. Chihuahua 3 yrs 5 pounds, & our baby 18 m months, 75 pounds. Could you imagine one of the bruisers giving ANY correction to the 2 tiny dogs? Could be deadly. On occassion I will loose a dog to correct another due to a young dog being very rude to another. Not a cue to fight. In 9 years, it's happened once. My fiesty Collie thought she was boss hoss... for about a month I'd correct the Collie until one day the Giant realized I didn't expect her to take this but rather than fight, she didnt gentle her play but gave about 3/4 of her strength to it. End of Collie dominance attempts. I thought it might come to this with the Spoo but he's cooled off a bit. 

My Spoo tried to correct one of the Chis about his food. I gave a strong verbal correction & he sorta said, wow, okay...that was a no no. I don't let the little dogs pester for food. Now he let's me deal with it. 

For me, I'm the leader. I need them to look to me for direction. I'm not saying the other way is bad, just no good for me. I covered 81 acres with 6-15 dogs. The only one on leash was a youngster or a naughty teen. Just remember when dogs choose their own hierarchy, there will be dominance battles

Edited to add: yes, they dont accept outsiders easily.


eventually
















Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Do you think it’s possible for the owner to set the hierarchy? Would you say this is an `okay’ way to train multiple dogs if done correctly? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

How do you give a leash correction the right way? I’ve found that most people do them much too hard to be effective, and wind up causing the dog to be fearful.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo said:


> Do you think it’s possible for the owner to set the hierarchy? Would you say this is an `okay’ way to train multiple dogs if done correctly?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's the handlers job to set the rules about how all this is handled. I cant make the others respect my Collie but I can dictate what's done about it so consistently that they begin to use some of my ways. The tiny Chihuahuas are the queen & princess. When a pup arrives I will use strong vocals & call the shots with all dogs in the family. Do NOT step on, put teeth on, run over, etc... in time my protection of these wee ones catch on. If the chi corrects the pup I back her up. Chi is allowed the illusion of power & the wise dog of big intelligence, the mini mice dogs are high priority important. Then we just shape the behavior from there. Yes, my Giant is aware that the chi cant beat her but it is her handler's desire that we go along so they do. NOT to say the Chi are allowed to bully & terrorize. Easy with some breeds... hard with others


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo,

Adding to the above post I said it's easy with some breeds, hard with others. My Malinois, Dobermans (see note), Giant (see note), Collies, Spoo, some German Shepherds this is easy. Those breeds want to please the handler. Dobermans on the whole have issues with tunnel vision (see cat... cat needs driven off property as it's after the chickens... & Dobie goes flying across the yard, not seeing the picnic table... thunk... Dobie makes a noise as it stumbles, gets up & goes on to chase cat away. Tunnel vision is dangerous with tiny dogs because they are seldom on the big dog's radar). Giants are not so tunnel vision & are capable of keeping all their 'chicks' on radar while they fight but the problem can occur when they leap, lots of power & what they land on so you have to find an individual who is a little special for your needs.

When you get in to the big molosser breeds, this becomes harder. Why? First off the molossers are to the dog breeds what draft horses are to the equine world. Bless them for it because there is a time & place for these big fellas however if you have small animals/children etc... now you have another issue because what's fragile to a Doberman is far smaller than what's fragile to a Cane Corso. Exceptions to this rule can be the Livestock guardians who are bred for generations to work with farm animals & who come from dogs successfully guardian the more fragile things like fowl, lambs/sheep, super highly bred high strung horses, rabbits, etc... (Yeah, I helped someone train 5 livestock guardians for their rabbitry and another for a place who breeds guinea pigs. The guinea pigs needed a pair of Collies.) With this big lovable oafs they might attempt to play with a Chihuahua & literally crush it without ill intent.

So I want to be clear on the difficulty here. If you just have one or two big dogs... not as much of an issue. I have a tribe. Currently 5 dogs, a flock of chickens, two aquariums of fish. Before we moved I also had 2 horses. So much depends on what the dogs will be working around. I've a friend who raises these big beautiful peacocks. Those birds require a dog who can read birds as they will flog a nice dog. If you raise pigs, well lets just say you better get a dog who knows better than to hang out in the hog pen.



FloofyPoodle said:


> How do you give a leash correction the right way? I’ve found that most people do them much too hard to be effective, and wind up causing the dog to be fearful.


Okay, depends on what kind of collar you are using.
--slip/choke collar (first should never ever be used to choke). A correction with this collar should occur parallel to the ground, level with the dog's neck. So you better get creative if you're using this on a short terrier. The neck/spine injures on small dogs with these collars are huge & it's not about power (that's another subject) BUT because most people correct at a wrong angle & causes an upward jerk. My rule of thumb with this style of collar is that if I have to correct twice & the dog is not obeying or showing respect to the collar/correction (which ALWAYS comes from me with a correction appropriate vocal)... then I will go to the prong.









(NOTE: fine link chain which when activated through correction slides easily without catching & makes a bit of a zzzz sound as it does. Most dogs will hear the first link or two & correct themselves & you never actually make a full correction. The leash is hooked to that little loop sticking out there, the chain follows up over the neck & goes around. So when you correct & release, the collar instantly loosens.)


The PRONG:
-- Lord knows this collar has a lot of controversy about it. The collar was created to mimic mother dog's neck pinch that occurs when the puppy is corrected in the nest for biting her teats too hard or chewing on her or other mother knows best corrections. The collar was also tested in a life long study on dogs & was found to have less neck/spine injuries than other types of collars which existed at that time. There has been many arguments over the years on how to hook up the prong collar correctly. Many want to hook up to one ring which gives the collar a harsher 'shut down' on the neck. This is incorrect & anyone who wants to argue is going to have to show me proof. When I hook up to the biggest dog with these & they feel the bite of the prong when used correctly however your hands moderate the harshness & where you hold the leash. If you hear a yip from a dog when I correct it's because the dog is surprised not because he is injured or hurt/harmed. If you hurt a dog at any point during training, everything, all the hours you poured into that dog is down the toilet & the dog can't trust you. I'm not talking about the accidental step on the toe or tail. Dogs do read our intent. So the prong has never been intended from the time of its creation to be used to hurt a dog. Yes, there are morons who sharpen the prongs to make them brutal. Those people should appear before a firing squad & we know how that ends. I have no tolerance for such people. But the prong when you hook it to both rings, hold your leash properly (slack between you & the dog) so that when you give a pop (correction) the dog feels the energy & may be startled & it's not pleasant but it's not hurtful/threatening or blood worthy. The one ring hook up is harsher. Totally not nice to hook a dog up that way. So now that we've gone through that...
I'm gonna draw you a word picture for now & I'll try to find you a picture. I can't find my darned pictures or this would be easier. The prongs go across the back of the neck, NEVER on the soft throat area. Hook to both rings. When you hold the leash, you hold at the furthest point away from the dog that you can & still affect a correction (each handler has to find that point). Hold leash in right hand, keep left hand off leash & wa-la. An effective way to correct the dog without hurting them. Strength of correction... depends on the dog. My Giant has worn the prong many times but she's had 2-3 corrections on it in two different sessions. One was as an older teen when she decided she would try to dominate me during grooming. One can not allow this with a Giant Schnauzer. Two short, sharp corrections coupled with vocals that sounded as if the tone of my voice could end her & she decided this was NOT the way to go. Again, not about fear, not about pain. Sort of like a kid who does something really stupid & mom & dad are both after the kid & he says to himself, "okay lets not ever do that again". The kid knows his parents are going to REALLY kill him. It's not like he's getting beaten or wounded yet the whole experience is enough he doesn't want to repeat it. It's meant to be unpleasant, not a killer.
Mr. Layne wore his first prong at 7 months of age to protect him from harming his throat witha choke or flat collar. He could NOT be trusted to walk nicely & not suddenly try to bolt off & hurt himself. He had zero respect for collars until the prong. He is unsafe in a slip/choker collar.









This is the only prong collar photo I can show you right now. Can not find my pictures. This is my Malinois doing the wheelbarrow training I talked about. You can use a plastic or metal barrel for this as well. She is sporting a prong collar. Dogs like her & most of my guardians wear a training collar & a wide flat collar. In emergency, I can hook my leash to the flat collar for protection work or to track someone. Then we go back to the prong for training or most other things on a walk. (Prong collars ALWAYS come off when you're not working.



Flat collar: this can be leather, nylon, etc... & if you have a dog that is very mild & has no desire to upset you, you can probably train off that flat buckle collar, no problem.









Pardon our "pigpen" impression. This was as a young dog & we'd had flooding rains, had huge lake like puddles in our front yard & she loved to run & jump in them but landing in a down position. That buckle collar is an inch or so wide. She would never work effectively off this collar until she's an older dog. The slip/choker collar is her preferred equipment. She hears that zzz & it's all done. (also above you'll see Mr. Layne in a neoprin wide flat collar which provides cushion (it's purple)








This is a 2 inch wide nylon collar & it would be perfect for the naughty Mr. Layne who will sometimes lunge against the collar at unexpected times & makes him cough because of the pressure on his throat. The wider collar is helpful but the buckle is insanely large on this one & one of our chihuahuas nearly got a leg in it. But this is the nylon version of a wide collar I would use during bite work, it protects the throat. Not the best collar to use during training.

For a super gentle dog like my Collie you could put a loop of yarn around her neck & work her with it.

Remember how I said dogs have to be on the balance point. Well so do we as handlers. So we have to be ready to praise, be ready to correct but not one more than the other. If you expect the dog will fail... he will. You don't give him any other choice. So when training we have to look at self... look at dog... are we on the balance point? Are we present in that moment with the dog or are we thinking about what we're going to fix for dinner? Dog can't be a rock star during training if you're distracted. Why? Because dogs are fluent in human, & they have a doctorate degree in their humans. On the flip side we humans are a mess. We don't understand our own species much less the dog (at least not to the depth that the dog understand & reads us).

Having said that always remember if you tell the dog 'sit' & the dog sits, you reward "GOOD sit" so the command & good behavior are reinforced.
If you tell the dog 'sit' & he doesn't, you 'pfui' (or whatever your word is) if the dog complies then you praise 'good pfui' (again dog understands he did what you wanted in connection to that warning. If dog doesn't sit still, you give your correction word + physical correction (lead/collar correction) that matches the training level of the dog. If it's a little tiny puppy that might just be a lift of the finger on the lead or if it's a seasoned pro dog that knows its job it would be a sharper correction with a strong vocal.
This is the pattern from dog to handler in ALL training with me. So if I tell the dog to 'hup' on the groom table, the dog is to hup himself up there, if he does not, warning... if not... correction & then he will be up on the table. Likewise whatever point the dog hups up there he will be praised according to that pattern.

Sorry, can't talk about one without the other.

The amount of power exerted in a correction depends on the dog. If you are doing obedience & the dog is making mistakes you slow down, exaggerate to teach. So if you correct you do it in an exaggerated form & relatively slowly (remember my dogs get a warning 'leave it' or 'pfui' before a physical correction). So by the time we get to a physical correction, the dog is choosing to block the handler out & we can't allow that. Now to be fair you have to look at our communication. Once it's on the dog but if the dog isn't getting it, keeping going back up the line of training until you find the part the dog really gets. For most dogs it's 'sit'. They may mess up everything else but 'sit' they understand, they do that for everything & they know it. So if you have to go back that far... go back. Right now Mr. Layne is struggling with the stay command. It's not that he doesn't get it, he's just feisty & wants to move, move, move. This requires patience, repetition. Some dogs have a very good attention span & you engage them in training, especially the stuff they love to do... oh man, you have them. How long can we do this hooman? Can we go longer? Do we have to stop? I find this often in tracking & bitework. & swimming, retrieving, etc... Not so much for obedience if you're just doing it as flatwork. If you're incorporating obedience work into obstacle work like I described in the wheelbarrow work. The point in corrections is to get to the point you rarely have to verbally correct. If you do this properly by the time the dog's 3-4 years old you may strain your brain to remember... when did I last correct him? I know I do... but when? If you learn to work obedience into an obstacle/working agility work, you'd be stunned to learn just how interesting you become & the dog is all about working with you.

Since I mentioned interesting I need point out that the whole trick to this is if you become interesting to your dog... no I mean you get the dog thinking, "what is she gonna do next?" or maybe you have a dog who has a problem going through narrow spaces. He just doesn't think he'll fit but you get on knees & hands like him & you go through & have him follow behind you... the dog says, "wow, okay I can be brave because my handler is here" & soon he'll be brave enough to go through that on his own. Next thing you know you gotta be careful he's not squeezing through places you don't want him to go. But you got that by becoming interesting. Rather than force the issues & risk forcing the dog... you change the conversation. The pup comes to that narrow space & says, "no, no, I won't fit... no I hate it" but rather than trying to coax him & you drop down & say, you're going so come on pup, follow" now the pup goes, "what the heck" & follows you or tries to. Now you'll have to be attentive to what the pup is doing in an awkward position & help him where he falters. When you train in this way it's not longer just about praise & correction. Now it's about something bigger. Your dog has a human that doesn't make him struggle alone. You go from being handler to becoming your dog's John Wayne! Oh my, he'll follow you anywhere.

Yes, sometimes the dog is going to require you to be strict & no nonsense, give those corrections, give that praise. Help him to find that foundation. A dog should never be afraid of his handler, though if you were in my house & someone makes me mad you'll see my dogs sort of drop their heads & peer around. If it's not my husband who is in the dog house you'll see them come together & they're looking for who they need to drive out. They don't see me mad very often (i mean it is rare) but once in awhile I get really irked & they don't like that. They are not afraid of me but they want to stay out of my way while I'm grouching around & they'll come up & put their heads on my lap or a paw on my arm & look at me. This is the dog being drawn to the handler in times of emotion. This is why when we work dogs, especially if you're doing something like tracking a human... you must have control of your emotions or the dog can't focus to work because he needs to be with you to comfort you. So likewise if you get emotional & upset during training, the dog just gets so low. Never compare him to another dog. When he succeeds be proud of him, he'll feel it. When he fails just know that you are going to bring him through it & have patience, smile & offer him a pat or a scratch & have the attitude that you'll get it next time.

If you train this way, you'll have a dog that would walk through fire with you. And I hope I've managed to explain this in a way that is easily understood. Any questions, fire them off. I will find a way to help.


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

dogsavvy said:


> It's the handlers job to set the rules about how all this is handled. I cant make the others respect my Collie but I can dictate what's done about it so consistently that they begin to use some of my ways. The tiny Chihuahuas are the queen & princess. When a pup arrives I will use strong vocals & call the shots with all dogs in the family. Do NOT step on, put teeth on, run over, etc... in time my protection of these wee ones catch on. If the chi corrects the pup I back her up. Chi is allowed the illusion of power & the wise dog of big intelligence, the mini mice dogs are high priority important. Then we just shape the behavior from there. Yes, my Giant is aware that the chi cant beat her but it is her handler's desire that we go along so they do. NOT to say the Chi are allowed to bully & terrorize. Easy with some breeds... hard with others


My biggest concern is my tiny chi if I ever decide to get a larger dog in the future (spoo or guard type breed). I’ll be honest, I’ve let people get to me with stories of larger dogs stepping on the smaller one’s back and breaking it, injuring the smaller dogs by playing too rough and I want to prevent it as much as possible. I’m not terrible at training, but I do look into other training methods often. Do you have examples of your chihuahuas maybe overstepping their boundaries compared to the big dogs? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

It does happen. Our Giant leapt over our very tiny Chi & we will never know if the Chi moved or the Giant goofed but the Chi was killed instantly. In my lifetime this has happened once. My husband went inside to check the biscuits in the oven. It was devestating.. little Red Beans is pictured with the Giant.

After my husband cried all night in his sleep I made him find a puppy. You never replace a dog...ever. He needed that little pup to fuss over. That would be the gold Chi, Boo Boo. She is all fun & sunshine & set our world upright though even after many years we both still grieve her loss. 

The truth in all of this is the dog acted as she should. Had that been a rattle snake instead of a bad guy, she would have taken the bite to protect the little one. Had the guy tried to get the little dog (that's my suspicion), the guardian prevents it. Sometimes things go wrong even when the course of action is correct. It's why you must be so disciplined when you have large & small together. But there are no guarantees. 


The 2nd picture is Boo Boo. She's the little ray of sunshine that came to fill a gigantic hole. It took a year for the Giant to move her feet with baby Boo around. Boo didn't care if we thought the Giant shouldn't be loose with her. She loves her big dog. 

This is why a lot of the bull/Mastiff side of the Molossers are really worrisome because the can mess up a tiny dog due to size & power.

Stay tuned I'll tell you about Chihuahua to Giant corrections next.
















Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

dogsavvy said:


> I should have started with how to pick a breed. But I started with breeder. So we'll back up for just a second.
> 
> Breed is largely a matter of preference but it's also a matter of what you can find available that are suitable. I usually have a few breeds in mind. But sometimes it comes down to finding a breed you can enjoy that has the tools for the job you want them for. I spent over 10 years to find my Doberman, & more than that to find the right SPOO. To be clear though I was striking out because many thought I had a crack in my head or that I was a maniac to want a SPOO for work as a bodyguard except I had trained with & handled two. I also found a kennel (more recently) in Russian who are breeding & handling SPOOs trained in bite sport but I didn't want to travel to Russia.
> 
> ...


We have a Spoo now because of where we live, his friendly personality is a real asset. However, I agree with your love of Schnauzers . we had Standard Schnauzers for 25 years because we had young children, a big yard and a neighbourhood that seemed to attract a lot of break and enters. The Schnauzers were totally reliable with all of the neighborhood kids, but implacable guardians of children and property. They ferociously prevented several attempted break and entries.

Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Charlie's Person said:


> We have a Spoo now because of where we live, his friendly personality is a real asset. However, I agree with your love of Schnauzers . we had Standard Schnauzers for 25 years because we had young children, a big yard and a neighbourhood that seemed to attract a lot of break and enters. The Schnauzers were totally reliable with all of the neighborhood kids, but implacable guardians of children and property. They ferociously prevented several attempted break and entries.
> 
> Sent from my STV100-3 using Tapatalk


The Standard is one I've always wanted but was told they wouldn't do so well with my Chihuahuas but I've always wondered because typically, farm dogs adapt to whatever the master wants to keep. I know of a pair who acted as sentry guards for a rabbit breeder. I've seen them go stop the rabbit pens to dispatch & the female mothered many baby rabbits. Some day

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

dogsavvy said:


> It does happen. Our Giant leapt over our very tiny Chi & we will never know if the Chi moved or the Giant goofed but the Chi was killed instantly. In my lifetime this has happened once. My husband went inside to check the biscuits in the oven. It was devestating.. little Red Beans is pictured with the Giant.
> 
> After my husband cried all night in his sleep I made him find a puppy. You never replace a dog...ever. He needed that little pup to fuss over. That would be the gold Chi, Boo Boo. She is all fun & sunshine & set our world upright though even after many years we both still grieve her loss.
> 
> ...


So what precautions do you think are truly necessary to prevent the incident? I might be getting a mini poo instead of a spoo, but I was thinking with a larger dog, you probably couldn’t leave them out together when you’re not home (that’s pretty obvious with any dogs though). However, you should have enough trust that you can walk away and not come back to an accidental death. Do you have to put emphasis on the difference in dog sizes? I really like the illusion of the chi as the big boss! I’m so sorry to hear about the death of the first chi and I’m glad to hear that you guys found another. The second one almost looks like my Luna

This conversation couldn’t have come at a good time too lol. My boyfriend and I have been together for awhile now and he’s talking about getting a Great Dane in the far future. I guess I can toss the idea of getting a cc out LOL. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo,

Oh boy well my personal experience with Great Danes was b-a-d. I've owned one. The one I had was a throw back to the old boar hunting dogs. My vet at the time was the son of Great Dane breeders & they knew exactly what I was facing. I should have rehomed her on the spot for the sake of the dog. She was a 1 person dog & resented anyone interfering with her time with her human. I have trained with a few Danes & it's enough for me to know I am not a Dane person. I did eventually find a person just for my Dane. By then the vet's parents were retiring from forty years in Danes. But the guy I found for her lived alone & he lived out in the country. But he learned about 5 months into life with Pickles the Dane that he was not to bring lady friend home. When he did, he was punished. Aside from her being a grump toward the lady, Pickles would do things like; eat a Dane sized hole in front door, kill all his chickens & pile the bodies on the front door, rip all the crotches out of anything he owned that were pants, shorts, sweats, underwear... all now crotch-less. He had to sew together patches to put on his pants so he could go to town & buy pants. She also yanked his pants down exposing him to a long line of traffic... a funeral procession. Pickles was a menace. I've always thought the Marmaduke character was crafted after an experience such as ours except funnier. Each time I would check with him over the years & offer to take her back if she had become too much, he refused. He loved that dog & she him. You'll want a very good quality breeder. Pickles lived to be an old Dane but I'm told many don't have long lives due to health issues.  

Now, about big dog little dog. Aside from being very careful in breed selection & then individual selection, you have to start the day Big puppy arrives. Mine are not allowed to eat out of the tiny dog's food bowl. At all. No excuses. Now a new puppy doesn't understand so right off the bat I redirect. All my large breed dogs are fed in their crate. If I give Mr. Layne (my SPOO) a treat, it's in his crate. Why? If I drop a piece of food on the floor & 5 dogs launch for it, I'm likely to have an injured or dead Chi. So I do this as a manner of training, of course not on the first day with a puppy. I begin by putting the Chi dish up, out of reach. When I do put it down, puppy is not allowed to go to it. But by then puppy knows what 'leave it' means. So every food interaction is controlled & monitored without fail. My Giant & Collie are old hands at this. I can pitch a piece of pepperoni on the floor from across the room & say, "here Tink" & the big dogs don't budge. If she walks away from it, turning her tiny nose up at it, then I can direct one of the big dogs for clean up but ONLY on command. None of my large breed dogs get to do this until they are at least 3 years old. Why? Because it's so ingrained in them by then not to lurch toward nummys that by then when I do allow it on a rare occassion... they go get it & it's as if they've gotten away with something. If at any time after that they get pushy... it's back to never for months, maybe a year. 

Feeding time has rules. Big dogs are fed in crates behind locked doors. This gives the pup-adult peace while they eat. There is no built up tension or frustrations or fear that someone's going to steal my food. So in the crate, meal time. They get 30 minutes to an hour after meal time before they are then ushered outside. Any food left over is removed (I have to laugh... nobody in this crowd ever leaves behind food but... if they did). The dog goes outside in the yard for free time to relieve themselves but also if there's another dog they might romp around & that's not good for a freshly filled gut. My little dogs are the only dogs I own who have kibble & it sits out all the time. The large dogs are not allowed to eat it except... Tinkerbell does love to feed her friends the pieces she does not like to eat. So about once every 6 months I will catch her sneaking treats to the crowd. (Chihuahuas are naughty). If they find a stray piece I don't scold for them eating it but we're raw feeders so they're not really excited about a kibble. All of ours are trained to sit & wait for permission to go to their bowls to eat. Why? More control. If I sit something down & one of the littles go rogue & try to get in there to get the big dog's food, the pup-adult knows I will handle it. They will not lose anything by standing down. Sit, stay... if Chi is naughty you will hear me say, "wait" & the big dog holds position until I deal with naughty chi. They have to trust me to pay attention & to direct the traffic. In turn I trust them not to break & try to correct a chi, which I will NOT tolerate.

During interactions with the little dogs when my large breeds are puppies there are rules: no slapping with paws, no putting paws on chis or holding them down, keep your teeth to yourself until you learn how to do it, etc... So for some puppies they're just not allowed to socialize like that. For Mr. Layne, it took him about a month to learn, no paws, no teeth. He is now 18 months old & will very very gently mouth Tinkerbell but she's pinched him so many times to correct him if he gets too rough that he fears the Tink. I literally sat on the bed with her on the bed, him on the floor, being the play conductor. It's harder to explain than do but you have to read both dogs so fast. Oh yes, no large dogs on furniture. One 70 dog getting up on the couch with a Chi under the covers equal dead chi. So don't do it. Big dogs are on the floor & I don't own a large dog that has an issue with it. They see the others stay on the floor. Chi needs to be able to get away from the big dogs, out from their feet.

I'll let you digest this & come back with more later. This is just a sample. You have to begin with a pup just as you want him to be through his life. Begin with the end in mind. So if I wanted to love on & hold my pup, I simply sat in the floor & snuggled.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

More Chi to big dog training.

I set the little dogs up much the same as I would if I had a rabbit or a chicken. My big breed dogs are expected to protect & serve. If it's important to me, it becomes important to them. So with a young pup, my chihuahuas know puppies are nuts so they get up on the couch. Puppy can come up & if puppy is nice the Chis will come up & snuffle, play nice. If at any point the puppy tries to pinch, the Chi will correct & I will put my hand on the puppy's chest & physically give a small amount of pressure as I say, "ah-ah, leave it". You'd be surprised how quickly puppies learn 'leave it' because you use it about a ba-jillion times per day. But I will take hold of the muzzle & prevent lunging. Working bred pups have a tendency to see that little dog nip & want to tackle it. This must be learned right off the bat. Because it's how puppy learns what is okay & what is not okay in your Humansville you set out teach & you must understand puppies learn 24/7, if they are conscious, they are learning - good or bad. I will protect the little dogs at all times. So let's say the pup has been with me a few days & is showing indication of knowing what 'ah ah' & 'leave it' are (not perfect but an understanding). I will set the kibble bowl down. Now this dish is off limits to puppy. If one of the little dogs gets down to go get a bite of kibble, I will be perched on the edge of the couch or if it's a fast pup or one that tends to block out what she doesn't want to hear, I'll sit in a chair next to the kibble bowl. The pup will be rebuffed when she focuses on the kibble bowl; a verbal 'ah ah' as she approaches the kibble bowl, a strong, sharp 'leave it' if she attempts to approach to steal. It's important puppy doesn't self reward at the bowl. ((FYI: puppy should also be taught to sit & stay, wait for their own bowl to be sat down, then a release command given for the pup to go to the meal. For all my dogs but especially guardian pups, I will tell them 'crate' or 'load up' & as soon as the puppy is in the crate they can eat but I will ALWAYS every single time reach down & stroke puppy's head & say "good (repeat the last command word)". My Collie was very food aggressive with other dogs as a puppy (very odd for a Collie) so she had to undergo about 6 months worth of conditioning so she understood it would never be okay to lash out at someone over the food bowl. Once she had this ingrained... never another bit of trouble until she was dognapped. Took about 30 days for her to come back to herself after that.)) If everyone did a release to food bowl command there would be far fewer owner/children/dog conflicts that started with food but the humans didn't know it.

I want to point something out. In Humansville, there are humans who say, "But... but... it's not fair for one to have something the other doesn't" if that is your mindset, it's most likely you'll have problems & I really can't help you. I don't look at this any differently than proofing training. Just because food is present does not mean it involves you (said to Giant Schnauzer, Collie, & SPOO). My dogs are never teased with food but they know shortly after arrival that the presence of food doesn't mean they're getting it. If you do it right, here's something that's very possible. I opened a bag of shredded cheese once & it ripped wrong... cheese everywhere. While I was busy trying to get the disaster kept to a minimum, the little dogs scurry in to party-pa-looza. They sniff, lick, pick up one piece and slowly savor it, go to the next piece. The large dogs must've figured I had my hands full & went to my husband. This is my 9 year old Giant & my 5 year old Collie. They got him off the couch & he thought they needed to go outside. He sees the mess I'm in & asked, "you want a bigger clean up crew" at this point you could tell they were very hopeful but not launching forward to hoover up the cheese. I walked over to a spot away from the little dogs & tapped with my foot & gave the okay. Giant & Collie snarfed up cheese mess, side by side, heads not a foot from each other. No fight. No pushing. No rushing to grab it all before the other. Very calm clean up. End of clean up I put them outside & the Chihuahuas went back to their couch. Hubby & I had our tacos & life went on. After the meal I properly cleaned the floor. But you can't do this with most puppies or young adults, not if you want food to be a non-issue on the training field or in your home or between large & tiny dogs. My first Collie was ready for this at 5 months old yet I didn't do this until she was over a year old. My Giant couldn't handle such things until she was around 4. I use the toe-tap on the floor near the food & direct which dog or I'll say, "here ya go" & that means they can approach (Mom has a big mess). They are not allowed to eat off our plates or out of our dishes. If I have something of that size/nature it goes in the dog food bowls

Food can be the base of a lot of problems. So it gets a big chapter. Disciplined & strict behavior early on means you can loosen a little as they are mature adults & show you they can handle it. My Giant can only handle the rare instance. My Collie will behave very aloof about food but she's hopeful. My SPOO is not old enough & he's not getting tested until he's over 2. At 18 months when he thinks there is any treat going to be made available he runs to his crate, turns, & waits. This is very promising & I have a feeling as he gets older I will be able to entrust him with very important things. 

Other things, my big pups are never allowed to go out first in front of the tiny dogs. They go out then I have puppy on leash & we go out together. They learn not to do a fly by on the little dogs (this is another area where little ones can get rolled). So when I go out with my tribe to check our chickens, it's 2 little dogs, then the big dogs one at a time (minus Mr. Layne, I can't yet trust him to hold his brain in tact as he has a chicken problem & totally looses his grits if he sees a squirrel. Worst squirrel hunter on the planet but he thinks he's accomplishing something). At the point the big dogs clear the last step you will hear us say, "CAREFUL" or "go easy" depending on if their blood is up or they're calm. They go do their business. I gather eggs, check birds, give them their daily bird treats, & then start back toward the house. Each of my dogs have their own whistle unique to them. So I do roll call & by the time I'm at the sidewalk we are proceeding back to the house. At all times I am on the lookout for speed demon antics that need to be toned down. The Collie loin nips my Giant trying to herd her. So I'll likely fuss at her & she'll respond. She wants to please. We get to the door. Everything stops. My Giant will always be pressing her nose to the door as if she can pry it open. I will ALWAYS have to give her the 'back' command, the little dogs are allowed in & I make certain their out of the path & then I enter, then the big dogs. Every time. 

You structure every interaction for a long while with a pup through young adulthood with the little dogs. After they're a year old the pup tells you how much responsibility you can trust him with. My SPOO, VERY good in the house, outside where there are squirrels & chickens... ain't no freakin' way. He's a screwball. Will he always be? I don't think so. My Giant was far worse. So long as you allow the little ones to set boundaries yet don't allow them to be bullies & your pup sees you treat the little ones with great care, they pick up on this if they have a good working dog's mind. If they don't, you're in trouble.

I had a good friend who rolled her eyes at me & bemoaned that I was too cautious, to paranoid. She had a 90 pound pit bull who wouldn't hurt a fly, he played with her little Yorkie & her Chihuahua all the time. And he did. The day that he crushed the Chihuahua in his jaws, he was not aggressive & was not trying to hurt the little dog. He was distracted by someone in the driveway & shut his jaws more than he would have if paying attention as he always did. The little dog died quickly. Another friend of hers was taping the two playing as it was always quite cute. The instant the big dog heard that sound outside & he turned his head, intently listening, he shut his jaws down maybe 2-3 inches too far. Just as my Giant did not intend harm on Little Red Beans, the Pit wasn't trying to dominate or destroy his little pal. But in watching the 10 minute video prior to the little dog's death... I would never have allowed that sort of play behavior between anything but two tiny Chihuahuas. No big dog, little dog play like this. Yes, just like my friend's incident, I know tons of people who turn their big bruisers out with their tiny dogs & would never hurt a fly. Had one of those this week where a Giant slapped with its paw & the little dog lost its eye. Yes, many get away with it. For me, I take my responsibility in large guardian dogs extremely seriously. Equally serious is my commitment to the safety of those little lives for which I am responsible. So...

Big teeth on little dog = play over
Big paw on little dog = play over
Big paw slapping at little dog = play over
Taking big nose/muzzle & air lifting tiny dogs = play over
Sniffing butts is generally okay unless the little dog ends up being wheel barreled (butt in air, big dog nose under said tushie = play over

If big pup or dog can't keep track of his/her feet, they are on leash until they learn to mind their feet (& yes, dogs can learn this). The worst time I had was with my current Collie, she'd get so focused on humans she'd just thump the little ones as her feet went over them... so I used a broom. (NEVER use a broom, mop, or shepherd's hook to strike unless you are protecting your dog for an attack.) The broom is used to take the bristles & tap the footsies. Bristles to footsie communication. So we go out into the front yard in the grassy park like area & I have the broom (I'm sure my neighbors think me insane). I keep the broom about 8 inches from the ground so there is not a swinging motion. That's not the purpose or what we wish to teach. We walk along & when the dog starts to jet off & little dog is too close I will say in a dark warning, "watch it" & I will begin by bumping the ground near the paws. As soon as the dog eyes the broom & moves away from it, thus moving away from the little dog, I say "GOOD watch it" in a praise tone. Honestly I have had sessions with a good many dogs where I never touch the paws with the broom. just bumping it on the ground near their feet is enough to make them look down & wa-la, they see the tiny dog. Which is the purpose. This causes the dog to adjust & you praise instantly. You have to train for awhile so that it becomes a habit but for my Collie I began to scrape the ground with my foot as I broom bumped & she flick her attention down, I praise & she goes, "OOOOH now I get it" and of broom training. My SPOO thinks broom training is for running off with my broom... the boy is a mess, LOL I started using the broom after I trained livestock guardians. When you bring in new livestock they try to drive off the invaders. I would use the broom to just get in their way while using a correction word & after 10 minutes i had their mind out of "DRIVE IT OUT" mode & then we could resume our regularly scheduled programming. The precaution with the broom is you must be careful that it doesn't become a game of attack the broom or pounce on broom with front paws. You don't want them to get paw intensive where they are slapping everything with the front paws... that's how the Giant above hurt it's little friend (BTW: that wasn't my Giant Schnauzer who hurt the little dog's eye).


----------



## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Oof, I haven't researched the breed just yet (I know nothing about them), but my S/O said he had two as a child and they were fine. I'm hoping he didn't just get lucky.

Interesting methods though. I’ve never heard of a dog that watches where they step! I didn’t even know you could teach them something like that. I’m really just taking this all in lol. Do you allow your chis and larger dogs to be outside around the same time? How do you monitor their play? Especially the collie. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Luluspoo said:


> Oof, I haven't researched the breed just yet (I know nothing about them), but my S/O said he had two as a child and they were fine. I'm hoping he didn't just get lucky.
> 
> Interesting methods though. I’ve never heard of a dog that watches where they step! I didn’t even know you could teach them something like that. I’m really just taking this all in lol. Do you allow your chis and larger dogs to be outside around the same time? How do you monitor their play? Especially the collie.
> 
> ...


It's more likely I had a unique Dane. Where I was raised it was hard also to find a well bred Dane & harder to find a decent Lab. There is a pawn shop owner here that has the sweetest Dane. He has to give me kisses when I go in to check out their DVDs for sale (I go in to see the dog). He is precious. If you could find one like that... oh man. The base of his tail is bigger around than my Chis' necks.

My eldest 2 working dogs go out with the Chis. The Collie guards & herds them... the Giant guards all of us. The Collie has thwarted eagle attacks. She's keen on birds of prey. And those 2 can ruin a snake.

It's just a case of drawing their attention to their feet. If I'm barefoot I'll use my bare toe to touch theirs but with a broom or mop you can block a little dog from being mowed down while they learn. I worked with my own livestock & learned to use a shepherd's staff in training as a communication tool. So I always have to stress to people I'm not mafia whacking puppies as many dont get that. No pain, no fear, no..no...no. You're just drawing focus down to the paws. You'll see the big dog often startle as they didn't see the little ones. They get their focus up on me & the tiny dogs aren't on the radar. 

It is a lot of work but it becomes just a way of life until you dont even notice. Mr. Layne has learned if he gets too rowdy... to go get in his crate. I then know he needs to get out & run. The dogs talk to us, most of the time we just dont realize it.

Tonight Boo Boo encountered a chipmunk.
Boo would try to play & it would NOT understand. The Collie spotted it first, swept in from Boo's left, between boo & the munk. That gave the Giant time to barrel in from the right & once the animal was away from her baby... they pursued it until they couldn't find it. (Poor little chipmunk). It is an example of their teamwork. It's the same if it were a snake or a bear. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I will add to dogsavvy's story that it is far easier in my experience to bring a small dog puppy into a house with a mature adult large dog than a big puppy into a house with a small dog. It also is very dog personality dependent. 

We had a VERY gentle saint bernard, who lived with a baby yorkie and had great self control and was very careful with her feet. No biting play, definitely, but the dog would gently hold a long dangling toy, pick it up, slowly lift it, lifting the puppy, then slowly lower it. No shaking, no tugging (she regularly dragged me across the floor in tug, but not the puppy). The puppy adored her, would jump to lick her mouth. Maybe the saint would walk in a slow, careful circle. Still- the two wete never left unattended together, but it worked well.

Doing it the other way? With a small dog and large puppy? It very much helps to have a confident small dog willing to correct said big dog. I have a yorkie and a spoo in our house - it would have been WAY easier to teach "dont jump on her!" If the yorkie was willing to correct the obnoxious puppy (and yes, i back up the small dog who corrects a large dog, unless it becomes bullying, which i have also seen and is then a risk for retaliation from the bigger dog). As it was, it took until my spoo was 8 months to trust her indoors, took until nearly 2 outside. Small dog also has crates etc strategically placed around the house as she doesnt jump on furniture. Cats? My spoo figured out appropriate play (none) with cats within a week, as they told her what was unacceptable. All outdoor play is monitored. I would be unlikely to let the two out in a large yard to play without supervision, as i dont trust my spoos impulse control while running. Again, a few corrections from the little dog would really be helpful. In the house, they do fine together.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

For want of Poodle,

You hit the nail on the head. Our first chis were tough task masters. Big dogs were held to a high standard of behavior. Boo Boo is a lover. She tries to play with everyone & everything. Last night with the chipmunk, the collie knew she had to act fast or Boo would advance to play. The chipmunk likely would have ran but if she'd gotten to it, she would have surely been bitten as she would try to wash it's butt. Boo mother's things. She spends a good bit of time following our chickens wanting to butt-check them. We never bred her & wouldn't but she would have been a fantastic mother. She is the same with everything. I watched a tiny snake strike at her like a maniac... it seemed to hurt her feelings. She skirted away from it & was upset when I went after it with the broom. Mr. snake & I had a long bristled discussion on why one does not come to MY yard & treat dogs that way. If I'd had a shovel or hoe, dead snake. Very aggressive little thing. King & black snakes are removed & relocated as they eat the venomous ones. I didn't have my glasses on but I suspect that little bugger was a pygmy rattler. 


I wanted to share here what happened last night. I'm very pleased with Mr. Layne. I was thinking the other day I need to put myself into rigorous training & in the spring take Mr. Layne out of country to a dog master & have him worked in protection. The boy's got what it takes, I just need someone at a high level that can bring it out & help me put a handle on it (it's at least a 2 person job). Well... last night he was raising the roof out back. I mean he was whoa-whoa-whoa & he just would NOT stop. I stepped out back but my ears couldn't pick anything up that was unusual. (It's important that when the dogs know what you don't, you don't give direction or correction). So I said to him, "I'm looking". He's so young I didn't know if it was a squirrel, deer or something more. Inclined to think something more for the way he was really not letting up. Sure enough when I got to the front of the house I discovered.... a highway patrol SUV was behind a car having trouble. A truck was pulled (going the wrong way) up to the car trying to help. I guess with the stress of the break down, emotions were high. The officer was nice but keeping an eye on things & i suspect there was a reason. Police here readily render aid if they can to stranded motorists but he was there for the better part of an hour seeming to stand guard. The Poodle was standing his ground on the high ground & warning them very clearly, stay off my property. I praised him, brought him inside where he went to rear up & perch at the front window. I came up so that my chest was against his back & talked him through it. "Good watch. What are they doing?" He'd grumble low & his head move as he tracked each person's movements. He was no more concerned about what that officer was doing than he was about the wind blowing but there were two people he was zeroed in on.

It is in these very real moments that you can make or break a pup or young dog coming up through protection training. Had I gone out & tried to shut him up, he learns I do not want him to protect us. Had I egged him on & really got him wound up, I create a monster that later can't be handled. Mr. Layne is extremely athletic & over 70 pounds, one does not need to amp him up. YIKES. So what I did was bring him in, so he went quiet but still concerned. I used a natural, normal situation to show him I'm with him. I see the problem. I asked him, "What are they doing?" to mark in his mind & to tweak his curiosity. Using the right tone of voice here goes a long ways. But he had just been praised, "GOOD watch" so he knows he's giving me what I want in this situation.

For dogs they always have questions in their mind. When we say "good sit" we answer a question. "Good" plus direction of what exactly they're being praised for. Sometimes you don't give the command. I didn't give him the watch command but because he's doing his job & doing it well, I praise as if I had. This is how people began working guardians since before anyone heard of a bite suit. It works well if the dog has what it takes inside & the person doing it reads dogs well & knows when & where to place these markers.

My husband opted not to leave until after all vehicles were gone. And he says to me, "You know he really is a good puppy."


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I gotta share this. My Giant Schnauzer is busy guarding all the members of the house from the terrorists she is convinced are hiding in our bathroom wall waiting to get us. Apparently they can't come out so long as she stands watch. I am convinced there is a noise the wind makes or plumbing makes that is the cause. We will be tearing that bathroom apart when we get to remodeling that, so I am eager to see what it is exactly that she's 'onto'. But Mr. Layne has decided that since the Giant is otherwise occupied, it is up to him to protect everything else while she is obviously so busy. Tonight he is very restless. Why? Well it's the first days we've had the windows opened. Nice cool days/nights, might as well air out the house. He has cleared every room in the house, determined which ones have a weakness (windows open) & he's haunting those rooms. He's not whining but very systematically he goes to the bedroom & checked the two chihuahuas who are on the bed. Boo warns him to leave her gorilla alone. Tink offers to allow him to sniff her belly so long as he doesn't get too rough. Okay, two down... 3 to go. He glances into the hall bath (the Giant's lair while she holds the terrorists at bay), 3 checked... 2 to go. He's pretty content that the Collie is at my feet in the sewing room at my computer. Check: family is okay (dad is at the poolhall tonight). This is another reason he is very alert. When Dad's away, the security level goes up. Once he's checked us, he then goes to the empty rooms & checks for open windows. Once he decided certain rooms are 'safer' he only visits them occasionally. But each open window, he rears up, sniffs the screens & makes certain there are no terrorists, aliens, bad guys, or squirrels (the boy has a problem with squirrels & chipmunks if he could figure out where they go!). 

He's made about 30 minutes of very intense checks before he determined that we are in fact secure. He lay down in the room with the Chihuahuas. Woe be it to anyone who decided to break into this home. This isn't puppy restlessness. He's all business.

This is what I needed to see & it happens organically (more importantly it happened naturally). He has a different style than my Giant. She goes around once & comes to lay where she can see me (when there are wall terrorists). My Collie is a dog who is more frantic & if she thinks things aren't right she has this sound she makes under her breath as she paces, paces, paces until you want to pinch her. Mr. Layne... he's like my old Doberman male who was cocky enough to lay there & dare the biggest monster on the planet to cross a line in the sand. I suspect tonight, whatever has set him on edge, Mr. Layne wouldn't mind a rumble. Yet he's focused but not stressed. A lot of young dogs in this position can get all wound up & when one of the other dogs barks you risk them lashing back on that dog out of frustration. Not this boy. He's been told off by both Chihuahuas & gave them both a tongue swipe before moving on. He's settled in quietly, content that he has us safe. I'll have to be careful when my husband comes home. Mr. Layne adores him but it's the first time I've seen the boy this 'on'.


----------

