# Navigating spay and neuter in a breeder contract



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

I was looking at this website, and the breeder looks very good in general--but they say that you must spay/neuter by 10 months of age to get registration papers, whereas the recommended spay/neuter age for mini poodles is a year old. This seems to be common with a lot of breeders I've seen. I'm curious--how would you go about saying that you would like to wait a little past that? Or would you have to move on from that breeder?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm not familiar with the breeder you've linked to, but I would ask how they've arrived at that age, explain my reasons for not being comfortable with it, and go from there.

In a lot of cases, it might just be an "old school" mindset. My concern would be if they're not keeping up with spay/neuter science, what else are they behind on? Just because someone's been doing something one way for decades, that doesn't mean they're doing it the best way.

But always good to give them a chance to explain, especially if they are otherwise ticking all your boxes.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I would not have a problem asking them if you could wait. But it would be my preference to work with a breeder that was progressive and health conscious without my pushing. Misha's contract states the opposite, that he could not be neutered until after a given age. His breeder has a preference for keeping intact or vasectomy. We are currently planning on a vasectomy after I am sure I can live with his hormones.

I would state that you have no intention of breeding but would prefer to wait until full maturity to sterilize and would like to know if an exception could be made.

Not sure why they would withhold registration papers though.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> Not sure why they would withhold registration papers though.


I assume to improve the new owners follow thru of the spay/neuter agreement. 

From the AKC Procedures for Registration Matters

III. CONTRACTS
It has been our experience that all too frequently, severe and complicated problems result from disputes over conditional sale, conditional stud and co-ownership contracts or any contract or agreement relating to restrictions or limitations people try to place on the sale or breeding of a dog.

A. SPAY/NEUTER CONTRACTS
A written agreement between buyer and seller to the effect that AKC registration papers will not be furnished to the buyer until the seller has been furnished with evidence that the dog has been neutered or spayed is acceptable under our rules.
If a dog is sold under such conditions, it is important that the agreement be signed by the buyer before the dog leaves the seller’s premises.
Many breeders using this type of agreement include clauses to the effect that the dog must be spayed or neutered by a certain date (or age).



https://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RREGS2.pdf



We know that so many of these online sites don't get updated with any regularity. I'd expect the same of the rest of their "paperwork". 

The thing about contracts is that, if both parties agree on the amended terms, they can be amended. A few members have run into this and, as above, it's suggested to talk to the breeder about the current scientific information regarding timing for spay/neuter for the varieties and ask if they'd amend the contract on that point. Just have some of that info ready to cite . Some posts have reported success with breeder and buyer agreeing to amend terms. 

I think I'd pass if they remained adamant. That suggests to me that the long term health of the pup is not their priority. For your approach, just a simple "I've been doing a lot of research and found that the Versatility In Poodles organization has funded research on health and timing of spay/neuter for poodles..."





Research - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org





Or from the AKC:

The AKC Board of Directors recently approved clarifications to three AKC legislative position statements, which refine AKC’s perspective on spaying and neutering in general and emphasize AKC’s opposition to mandatory spay/neuter laws. These changes take into account recent scientific studies that find that sterilizing a dog, particularly before it has fully matured, can lead to significant future health issues, including cancer (such as osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma and lymphosarcoma), hip dysplasia, ligament damage, chronic incontinence and even a shorter lifespan.


The newly-revised positions are as follows:


Spaying and Neutering –


The American Kennel Club® opposes laws that mandate the spaying/neutering of dogs. Spaying/Neutering are major surgeries and the decision to spay or neuter a dog should be made by the dog’s owner in conjunction with their veterinarian. Recent scientific studies demonstrate that spaying/neutering, particularly before a dog is fully mature, may result in detrimental long-term health impacts. In light of this information, AKC encourages breeders, owners and veterinarians to consult on the appropriateness and timing of spaying or neutering an individual dog.









AKC Clarifies Position Statements Related to Spaying and Neutering – American Kennel Club







www.akc.org


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I read the short report on spay/neuter from VIP, and it stated that there are no health considerations in spaying or neutering mini poodles at any age. It did state that toy poodles should be at least one year. So the breeder could be following that information.
This extended study though, that includes more breeds, also from UCDavis, did see an increase in cruciate ruptures in dogs neutered at 6-11months. Assisting Decision-Making on Age of Neutering for 35 Breeds of Dogs: Associated Joint Disorders, Cancers, and Urinary Incontinence
I believe this one is more recent, but it's from June or July this year so certainly wouldn't fault any breeder for not having seen it yet.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

But I would ask about it, and send them the above article if they seem open to it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There's a few threads on this topic, and, Starvt, you're right to suggest the later study. I haven't looked for the specific thread, but there's a recent one, thoroughly going over this topic. 

In addition to specific conditions, it seems that holding off on desexing til the pup is physically mature allows the full, natural hormone set to have it's full, beneficial effect, on all body systems. Growth plate closure is important for correct growth as well. 

Think of it this way, there's no proven medical benefit to an individual dog from an early spay/neuter but there is proven benefit to holding off til physical maturity.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Its my understanding when registering a litter, the breeder can stipulate that particulars dogs are registrable but not for breeding purposes . Therefore if you buy and register your pup you cannot register any of his/her off spring. I think this is a good thing though their are still unscrupulous people out there that will breed and sell puppies without "papers".


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> I assume to improve the new owners follow thru of the spay/neuter agreement.


I assume the same but this was traditionally done this way before limited registration was an option. A person willing to breed a limited reg dog probably would also breed an unpapered one I would think.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In Javelin and Peeves contracts there were no stipulations about neutering at all and they are both intact. In fact Peeves has an open registration and could legitimately be bred. For Javelin his registration is limited so if I bred him his puppies couldn't be registered. I got Javelin's application to register him on gotcha day since his breeder had already registered the litter. Lily was spayed at under a year because we also already had Peeves and the easiest way to avoid an oops litter of mutts was to spay her. The boys are intact because we did not see that there were major health benefits for them to neuter them as there is evidence for with bitches.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

I don't mean to hijack this thread but would there be any issue with a breeder requiring that spay/neuter not occur before 15 months of age? I am about to purchase a mini with this requirement.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

No , thats actually really good.. A dog should not be fixed until at least 1 years of age, 2 years for giant breeds.

If I had it my way, I wouldnt steralize a male at all, there are benifits to them not being fixed.
for females i'd do it at 1yr, because otherwise there are alot of risks.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

a2girl said:


> I don't mean to hijack this thread but would there be any issue with a breeder requiring that spay/neuter not occur before 15 months of age? I am about to purchase a mini with this requirement.


Nope. Mine had the same requirement but it was 12 months. I believe she has since pushed it back further. You must be committed to training the hormonal behaviors away if you have a male. Most people want to neuter at the first sign of marking or humping. It just takes training most of the time.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Nope. Mine had the same requirement but it was 12 months. I believe she has since pushed it back further. You must be committed to training the hormonal behaviors away if you have a male. Most people want to neuter at the first sign of marking or humping. It just takes training most of the time.


Thanks, this question was in reference to a male. I guess I will have to be on the lookout for marking. But I have time to educate myself---he's only 10 weeks old now!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I had a similar clause on my contract and after I’d had my dog for a while, contacted the breeder and asked permission to delay the spay until 12 months old. She agreed. Finally it had to be 14 months old because my dog was in heat at 12 months. She retained the paper after I got her written proof of the spay. I did get the papers.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I assume to improve the new owners follow thru of the spay/neuter agreement.
> 
> From the AKC Procedures for Registration Matters
> 
> ...


Excellent info as always, Rose! I'll have to bookmark these things for when I do talk to a breeder!

I guess another thing I find interesting is that the tone I get from the breeder's website is that they really, really don't want their dogs to be puppy mill dogs or bred to make doodles. They have 'fines' if they find out the dog is being used as such. Which I guess is understandable. They're also a UKC breeder in addition to AKC, so that might also throw something into it. I'm not too familiar with the UKC's stance on S/N, but I imagine it's the same or similar. It does seem that they've changed the age from 6 months to 10, which confuses me even more. Overall, they aren't my first pick--I'd rather there be proven agility performance dogs in the lines if possible--but I did find a few other breeders through their website that I'll probably look into just for fun. Their phantom stud they have on their website looks stunning, though (although that could just me being a sucker for that color):


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