# What do you think of the living conditions of these pups?



## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

I have a reputable breeder who sent me these pics of her pups. Based on these pictures, what do you think of the living conditions of these pups? 


















The exercise pen appears to be rusted and the surrounding appears to be messy. Is this a bad sign? The breeder states that these pups sleep in her room. Would an exercise pen be placed in a bedroom? 

This may not be anything but I'm just wondering. Thanks!


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## Melly808 (May 6, 2013)

Just from the pictures it looks like the house is not the cleanliness of places. That leaves me to wonder how she takes care of the puppies and if she starts potty training them or not. You don't want to get a puppy that hasn't been taught the proper places to go potty. Just my two cents


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Melly808 said:


> Just from the pictures it looks like the house is not the cleanliness of places. That leaves me to wonder how she takes care of the puppies and if she starts potty training them or not. You don't want to get a puppy that hasn't been taught the proper places to go potty. Just my two cents
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thank you for your input. I just noticed that the pups are lying on paper soiled with urine stains and a mat had been placed on top of these dirty papers. Not a good sign.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As a Brit, I'm possibly less hung up on hygiene than many Americans, but I would really rather have a pup from a rather messy, enriched environment than from one which was clinically sterile! A slightly worn - even rusty - crate or pen is not going to harm pups, and anyone who has ever raised a litter will understand the need to be with them 24/7 through the first weeks - if there is room in your bedroom, it saves putting a camp bed by the whelping pen. I would not be put off by these pictures - I would want to know what else the pups have experienced in their young lives, and how they are being taught appropriate toileting behaviour, though.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

I'll pass.


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## Melly808 (May 6, 2013)

I didn't even notice the pee stained pads. If you take pictures to sell you would think they would at least clean the area the puppies are in. I wouldn't pay for these puppies. How much are they selling for?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do keep our pups immaculate, but that is because I am a little more than slightly OCD. I agree with FJM. I did however notice in the one shot where you can see the tail that it looks as though these tails might be docked FAR too short.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I wouldn't be that put off by those pictures, but I did notice, like Arreau, that the tails look really short. If it was a reputable breeder they would know the current length of tail docks.


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

I wouldn't completely cross this person off the list, but, the tails do look too short to me (and are there white tips on some of them?) if there are a lot of little questionable issues though, those add up and would need to be considered. What area are you located in? Maybe someone on here can help you find a breeder.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Melly808 said:


> I didn't even notice the pee stained pads. If you take pictures to sell you would think they would at least clean the area the puppies are in. I wouldn't pay for these puppies. How much are they selling for?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Pups are being sold for slightly less than $1000. What do you think of the price?


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do keep our pups immaculate, but that is because I am a little more than slightly OCD. I agree with FJM. I did however notice in the one shot where you can see the tail that it looks as though these tails might be docked FAR too short.


If the tail is too short, does that affect the pup??


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

You guys are good at spotting little things that I never even noticed. Here are two more images:


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

brownlikewoah said:


> I wouldn't completely cross this person off the list, but, the tails do look too short to me (and are there white tips on some of them?) if there are a lot of little questionable issues though, those add up and would need to be considered. What area are you located in? Maybe someone on here can help you find a breeder.


I think the white stuff is white hair on their paws. I asked for a lot of help already. Many people gave me good referrals; however, slowly I narrowed it down to only a few since most have retired, don't breed toys anymore, don't have toys until a few months later...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

PoodleNoodle said:


> If the tail is too short, does that affect the pup??


It certainly affects the appearance- big time. It is simple to camouflage a too long tail, but too short...well, it will look like a bunny or a chicken mcnugget.


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## Melly808 (May 6, 2013)

I would ask to go to the home and see what conditions the house is in and how her dogs live. 


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

The grey carpet in the midst of the rusty crate is what concerned me most. Looks dirty so I would assume these pups are not mind living in a dirty condition. Such pup would be hard to potty train, am I right?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Was there health testing done on the parents? And what were the results? What does this breeder use her dogs for? Conformation, obedience, agility, other?? Has she bred other successful pups? I'm curious as to what makes her "reputable".


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> I think the white stuff is white hair on their paws. I asked for a lot of help already. Many people gave me good referrals; however, slowly I narrowed it down to only a few since most have retired, don't breed toys anymore, don't have toys until a few months later...


In general, you _will_ likely need to wait a few months if getting a puppy from a reputable breeder is important to you.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> It certainly affects the appearance- big time. It is simple to camouflage a too long tail, but too short...well, it will look like a bunny or a chicken mcnugget.


LOL.. you are hilarious. I guess that's a negative then.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Melly808 said:


> I would ask to go to the home and see what conditions the house is in and how her dogs live.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


She is from another province, so I am unable to visit her house =(


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Joelly said:


> The grey carpet in the midst of the rusty crate is what concerned me most. Looks dirty so I would assume these pups are not mind living in a dirty condition. Such pup would be hard to potty train, am I right?


As a newbie to poodles, the rusty crate and stained papers concerned me when I first saw it. It appears that many new forum members agree but the senior members don't necessary agree that the environment is a red flag. So what is the general consensus?


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Was there health testing done on the parents? And what were the results? What does this breeder use her dogs for? Conformation, obedience, agility, other?? Has she bred other successful pups? I'm curious as to what makes her "reputable".


Here's the thing.. the parents are clear of PRA and have a lot of champions in their pedigree. The pups are examined for patellas, hips, heart, eyes and hearing, have no tear stained eyes. I have yet to see documentation though. The breeder has raised many champions.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

PoodleNoodle said:


> As a newbie to poodles, the rusty crate and stained papers concerned me when I first saw it. It appears that many new forum members agree but the senior members don't necessary agree that the environment is a red flag. So what is the general consensus?


Some people are very business savvy and present a pretty picture when there really isn't one. Others aren't so good about doing that, but might be a great place. I think if you could go visit them it would be better and might put things in perspective. It is always best to be able to see with your own eyes. Are there any breeders within driving distance of you?


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> In general, you _will_ likely need to wait a few months if getting a puppy from a reputable breeder is important to you.


Couldn't agree more. A few months is like the minimum wait.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

If they had been photographed running in a back yard, you might have felt differently...???

Do you know how old the pups are? Maybe by now they should be outside?


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

> The breeder has raised many champions.


Then they would probably be searchable online... Did they give you any names of their champions? Or maybe a link to a pedigree?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the "grey carpet" is vet bed. Do you know anyone puppy-savvy more local to the breeder who could visit for you?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I love the mother dog, she is so cute! I would not be turned off by the pictures. I would want to go check it out, get more info.

My sister used to raise dogs, she kept them in the bedroom and her house would be a mess during the puppy time. She gave the mom and puppies all of her attention and no one took better care of them than her. She never lost a pup or mother in all the years that she raised dogs. She had to bottle feed a whole litter or pups once and all thrived.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Going off the photos, I am hard pressed to say one way or another. Puppies are messy, very, very messy. Most people raising a litter of pups also have a 'real' life to deal with as well. Kids, work, other dogs, etc. I have raised litters before, no, I can't keep them spotless (like I said I could before attempting to lol, but, I said my kids would always be dressed and clean and never have runny noses, too HA!) THe pictures I wonder about are the spotless, no poop/pee photos of the little guys posed on pretty backgrounds. I fell for those, too, went to visit and gagged - literally gagged from the stench of urine and bleach with a heavy topcoat of air freshener. 

I was a little put off once by a breeder who invited me to her home to visit her dogs. She asked me to wait until after noon to visit so she had time to clean the puppy room. I had my doubts at that point, but went anyway. They room was spotless (as much as possible), the dogs were clean but not 'just groomed right now' pretty. There was no cloying evil stench and the puppies were sweet smelling (again, not shampoo pretty smelling, but clean, healthy sweet smelling) and everybody was well adjusted and friendly. The house was orderly, but lived in. I did not buy a pup that day, but am willing to do so of the future allows. (she didn't have the color/gender I wanted, now I'm wishing I'd gotten the one she suggested after all)

I've gone to another place where the photos were perfect, I knew when I walked in the door that there was no chance ever of me even taking a free pup from that place, in fact, I reported them to local authorities. 

I raise herding dogs - very active, sometimes destructive herding dogs. My house is NEVER spotless anymore, such is life with active, happy dogs, teenagers and parrots. Go to the home, or send someone to rate the gag factor and go from there. 

I do know that I need to at least vacuum my carpets and pick up stray teenager clothing before snapping pictures, though. lol


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Here's the thing.. the parents are clear of PRA and have a lot of champions in their pedigree. The pups are examined for patellas, hips, heart, eyes and hearing, have no tear stained eyes. I have yet to see documentation though. The breeder has raised many champions.


Mostly rhetorical questions...

Other than PRA, what testing have the parents (not the pups) had? Don't make any decisions without seeing documentation.

What titles, if any, have the parents (not other dogs the breeder owns) earned? What does the breeder do with her dogs (e.g., conformation showing, agility, obedience, tracking)?

What specifically is the breeder doing to improve the health, conformation / structure, and/or temperament of her dogs? What were the goals and rationale for this particular breeding?

I assume you've seen this, but if not: Versatility in Poodles

I agree with Arreau, the tails look very short. I wouldn't be overly concerned about the mess, but I would ask more questions about how they are kept, how the breeder is socializing them and preparing them to go to new homes, and what steps are being taken to start the house training process. 

Do you know anyone who could visit the breeder?

My primary concern with the rusty gate is tetanus, but I don't know if dogs are susceptible.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

outwest said:


> Some people are very business savvy and present a pretty picture when there really isn't one. Others aren't so good about doing that, but might be a great place. I think if you could go visit them it would be better and might put things in perspective. It is always best to be able to see with your own eyes. Are there any breeders within driving distance of you?


Yes, there are but I can't find a breeder with full documentation for parents and puppies =(


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Lene said:


> If they had been photographed running in a back yard, you might have felt differently...???
> 
> Do you know how old the pups are? Maybe by now they should be outside?


They are about 6 weeks. The breeder says she will take them out after 8 weeks and after they have shots.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Lene said:


> Then they would probably be searchable online... Did they give you any names of their champions? Or maybe a link to a pedigree?


She gave me the name of the grandparents. Where do I search the history???


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

fjm said:


> I think the "grey carpet" is vet bed. Do you know anyone puppy-savvy more local to the breeder who could visit for you?


I wish I did, but I don't.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Mostly rhetorical questions...
> 
> Other than PRA, what testing have the parents (not the pups) had? Don't make any decisions without seeing documentation.
> 
> ...



Okay, here's the update. The breeder was able to provide me the PRA tests for the sire and dam of the mother of the pup, but said the PRA tests for the sire and dam of the father was lost in a fire accident =S . It seems like this is all she has to give me so far. I'm trying to ask for more.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> She gave me the name of the grandparents. Where do I search the history???


You can try here. 
Poodle Pedigree


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

The breeder is the same breeder as Sunny, and I stand by her 200%

She has been a gem from Day 1 and Sunny is wonderful.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I think sometimes calling the breeder in question directly and expressing all of the "concerns" that have been mentioned in this thread and finding out explanations, etc., or getting more information would be the best way to evaluate a breeder you are considering purchasing a pup from....followed by getting names of people who have that breeder's dogs and calling and speaking directly to them. Perhaps one of them has gone to the breeder's home, and you can find out directly about temperaments, etc. You should also check with the local poodle clubs in that area (CKC I guess in Canada) and get information on the breeder, too. Doing all of your due diligence of factual information would come before opinions on an internet site, though I know we all put lots of faith in it.

Everyone and anyone with a screen name can share their opinions and be an expert, but do your homework, go with your gut, etc. and speak with people who have actually dealt with a breeder before you form opinions. General impressions are helpful, but then what makes someone else's general impression more important than your own? That's my 3 cents.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Doing all of your due diligence of factual information would come before opinions on an internet site, though I know we all put lots of faith in it.
> 
> Everyone and anyone with a screen name can share their opinions and be an expert, but do your homework, go with your gut, etc. and speak with people who have actually dealt with a breeder before you form opinions. General impressions are helpful, but then what makes someone else's general impression more important than your own? That's my 3 cents.


I totally agree with liljaker. A lot of opinions expressed on internet forums are just that opinions. If you have the ability to speak with the Breeder and get actual references and speak to them, you will get the whole picture.

People can represent themselves anyway they want on the internet and you may trust what they say, just because they have been a member of the forum (where you are voicing your questions) for a long time. But unless you know that person personally you really do not have the details on their background and now you are relying on them to give you opinions about someone else.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I give a two thumbs up to what Liljaker and TLP said. Trust your gut, do your homework and don't let a couple of photos throw you!


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

I just had a wonderful chat with the breeder and cleared EVERYTHING up. 

It is my lack of knowledge and understanding of what breeders actually have to go through to raise a litter of pups, after all I am a newbie in raising a poodle as I have never raise a dog before. Before jumping to any conclusions, I think poodle buyers should really get to know the breeder and have a good chat with them, asking all, I mean ALL, the questions that they are concerned about. This is what I did not do. 

To clear things up regarding the pictures, the gate is actually PAINTED with brown paint to PREVENT the gate from rusting. The mat is a vet mat and we all should understand that pups pee very often. It takes a LOT of effort to look after and raise a healthy litter and I am sure many breeders will agree. 

I can totally hear the passion the breeder has for her poodles. Her sole mission is to raise the HEALTHIEST pups with the most beautiful temperament possible. You can tell goes above and beyond in reaching what I consider perfection, as she is very knowledgeable about all the diseases. Even before chatting with her, this was my initial impression of her after just reading her website. She's a wonderful lady, who I am more than happy to purchase a pup from. It is no wonder why liljaker absolutely admires her.

Thanks guys for contributing to my thread and for all your advises! You poodle lovers are awesome =D


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Thanks for posting this PoodleNoodle and here's to you finding a perfect poodle!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Sounds like you found your breeder! Congrats! Can't wait for reports on a new puppy!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds as if all your research and thinking has really paid off - congratulations!


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Sounds like you found your breeder! Congrats! Can't wait for reports on a new puppy!


Although I found the perfect breeder, there is one problem. ALL those cute little red dudes are SOLD! =~( I've been asking too many questions and asking for documents and pictures LOL. But these are the procedures that newbies should be following to get the perfect pup, so I can't really blame myself right? I'll be waiting for her next litter and am excited! =D But it may not be red dudes anymore, maybe apricot.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

fjm said:


> Sounds as if all your research and thinking has really paid off - congratulations!


In a way yes because I found the right breeder but lost my chance getting a pup early by asking too many questions.. lol

Your hunch was correct about the pictures. 

Oh yes, another thing I want to clear up about the short tails is that the image doesn't portray the actual length of the pups very well. When the pups tail is straight up, its length is level with the top of the head, which is exactly the poodle standard. 

I was so eager to get my hands on those pups.

Thank you for your contributions fjm. You've been an excellent help.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Oh yes, another thing I want to clear up about the short tails is that the image doesn't portray the actual length of the pups very well. When the pups tail is straight up, its length is level with the top of the head, which is exactly the poodle standard.


*PoodleNoodle*: I'm _very_ glad you addressed this! It's good you set the record straight for the few who were confused. It's also good you took to heart the well-intended suggestions you were offered and spoke with the breeder directly. You used your head to get the breeder-search thing by the tail!  You've shown others the path to a sound search by your example. Good for you, good on you, and good luck to you!:clover:


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm glad that you talked to the breeder and found answers to your questions. No, you didn't "lose your chance". By asking all the questions and seeing all the documents and pictures, now you know there's at least one breeder you can trust and you know what, there's one reputable and responsible breeder out there who got the opportunity to get to know you. Don't see this as a one-time business transaction. Both you and the breeder are nurturing a relationship.

If you decided that you can trust her and you like her breeding program/philosophy, keep in touch and be patient and wait for the next available litter and you would be at the top of the list for her next available puppy.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The official breed standard as set forth by the Poodle Club of America states this and only this about tail length:

(c) Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to ensure a balanced outline. Major fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

liljaker said:


> The breeder is the same breeder as Sunny, and I stand by her 200%
> 
> She has been a gem from Day 1 and Sunny is wonderful.


Sunny's breeder has Toys too?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

*Sunny's breeder*



schnauzerpoodle said:


> Sunny's breeder has Toys too?


She has toys and minis.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> The official breed standard as set forth by the Poodle Club of America states this and only this about tail length:
> 
> (c) Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to ensure a balanced outline. Major fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back.


Sunny's tail is one of my favorite things about him!!!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

liljaker said:


> Sunny's tail is one of my favorite things about him!!!


I like him from head to tail!! His tail does rock though!


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> *PoodleNoodle*: I'm _very_ glad you addressed this! It's good you set the record straight for the few who were confused. It's also good you took to heart the well-intended suggestions you were offered and spoke with the breeder directly. You used your head to get the breeder-search thing by the tail!  You've shown others the path to a sound search by your example. Good for you, good on you, and good luck to you!:clover:


Thanks for the compliment. When it comes to researching, I dig really deep. It was a steep learning curve. I follow the books and get down to the nitty gritty stuff, to the point that breeders probably find me annoying.. LOL But I got to hand it down to the poodle forum community. People here are so friendly and helpful, allowing me to speed up my learning. I still have a lot to learn. Almost everyone on this forum owns a dog or have owned one. I've only taken care of a dog for a few days almost a decade ago. 

THanks again!


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> Sunny's breeder has Toys too?


She breeds the perfect toys, miniatures and pinschers.


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## PoodleNoodle (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't think the breeder was *too happy* about me posting this thread on this forum. She read this thread and then called me to *clear * everything up, after which I thought we were all good. After the conversation, she told me her pups were *all sold* (quite sudden) and I said I want to place a deposit for a apricot pup from a future litter. She said she'd send me her address so I can mail a check to her, but she didn't. I e-mailed her and she *stopped responding* to my e-mails =S. 

Anyways, that's the end of this story. *I don't think it'll work out*. Moreover, she won't be expecting red toys anytime soon and she may or may not have an apricot. 

However, I did purchase a cream pup from a local breeder out of impulse after feeling disappointed with my attempt to purchase a red pup. But I'm still interested in a red toy poodle, a girl this time. I will continue looking. *Thank you* all for reading and your contributions.


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## Sawyersmomma (May 28, 2012)

Thanks for updating us! It's too bad she didn't read through to the end where it seemed to be really positive


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Sawyersmomma said:


> Thanks for updating us! It's too bad she didn't read through to the end where it seemed to be really positive


I am sure she read all the posts, as I sent them to her. I don't speak for this breeder, but she is very responsive so perhaps she is busy or something else has prevented her from answering.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

PoodleNoodle said:


> Although I found the perfect breeder, there is one problem. ALL those cute little red dudes are SOLD! =~( I've been asking too many questions and asking for documents and pictures LOL. But these are the procedures that newbies should be following to get the perfect pup, so I can't really blame myself right? I'll be waiting for her next litter and am excited! =D But it may not be red dudes anymore, maybe apricot.


I had to smile when you said "it may not be red dudes anymore." I had a deposit on a female blue, black or silver spoo puppy. The toy poodle we had at the time got very ill, very fast and we had to take our names off the list. White was the only color spoo I did not want. When our toy poodle died and we contacted the breeder again to put our names back on the list, she had a black male. We decided to wait, even tho it could be up to almost a year to get a puppy. She called us the next day and told us she had a little white female who was thirteen weeks old that she had decided not to show. Where we interested? Well, as you can tell by my avatar, the rest is history! I LOVE my white Lexi girl.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

And, by the way, Lexi is stunning.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

When it is the right breeder, color does not matter. I had agreed that I wanted to purchase Carley without even seeing a photo or knowing what color she was! I was a bit excited... lol when I did see a photo, I found myself wishing she was not blue, but I would not trade her for the world. Color is not important to me at all, I like a pretty dog, and it's the way they move that makes them pretty IMHO. A great breeder is going to have pretty dogs in any color!


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## sulamk (Nov 5, 2011)

I agree with FJM! Too sterile conditions. Can cause many or more immune system problems


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## whome? (Jun 18, 2013)

Sorry for your disappointment, PoodleNoodle. I am trying also to make sure I get a good breeder without stepping on any toes. I think it is hard to ask questions diplomatically because I am a straightforward person. 

Try to think on the positive side- that you really did get everything cleared up with this breeder and it is because she really is busy right now that she hasn't responded.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I am in pretty regular contact with this breeder, as she has stayed involved with me since I got Sunny from her and she told me she did answer his emails, but had been out of town for a few days and dealing with some flooding. Hopefully, PoodleNoodle will update us on what she had to say.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I don't think you should judge someone's breeding practice by a couple of pictures... go and look for yourself and see what is going on at their home, that is the quickest way to know whether you want to buy from a particular breeder or not.


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## whome? (Jun 18, 2013)

liljaker said:


> I am in pretty regular contact with this breeder, as she has stayed involved with me since I got Sunny from her and she told me she did answer his emails, but had been out of town for a few days and dealing with some flooding. Hopefully, PoodleNoodle will update us on what she had to say.


Yes, hopefully. Sunny is gorgeous, BTW. I thought I read you got him in Canada, otherwise I was going to check out your breeder for myself. I am trying to stay as close as possible to home so I figured Canada was out.


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## powertothepoodle (Sep 7, 2013)

I would not get them from there. we got our poodle from a ''reputable breeder'' and two months later James had to go through double Fho surgery. This happened because the breeder did not do all the proper testing on her dogs.:alberteinstein:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

powertothepoodle said:


> I would not get them from there. we got our poodle from a ''reputable breeder'' and two months later James had to go through double Fho surgery. This happened because the breeder did not do all the proper testing on her dogs.:alberteinstein:


This is an old thread. This happens to be Sunny's breeder. My breeder is a very reputable breeder and she does all the testing on her pups and the O/P at the time acknowledged same at a later point in time. I thought this thread was "put to bed" long ago and if it wasn't, on behalf of Sunny's breeder, it should be. No value to drudge this up again.


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