# Registration papers?



## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

I would make a strong but polite request for papers. If he will not provide papers (get health testing documentation ASAP) then I wld at minimum ask for a monetary discount. If he is not willing to work with you, then my own personal instinct (from the get go) wld be to walk away..... quickly. He is obviously shady so how do you know which part of his story is the truth?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I tend to agree with Kloliver. Sounds like the entire process got off on the wrong foot. Since you have put down a deposit -- did you get a receipt for the deposit? What are the terms of the deposit? Deciding against the dog, will you get it back? Will they keep it for another litter? Honestly, I would ask for my $$$ back and report him to the Better Business Bureau, or something equivalent in Canada. There are many good breeders in Canada -- so that would be my advice.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

No papers, no puppy. That would be my choice. Did you know when you put the deposit down that he would not be registering the litter?

Seems odd to me that he is "now" worried about his income being tracked when he has registered every other litter?

I would report him to the CKC if he claimed that they were going to be registered. Their regulations state:

"(b) All litters and all dogs in each litter shall be registered with the CKC. Litter registrations shall be forwarded to CKC as soon as is reasonably possible after the birth of the dogs. Upon the sale of each dog from any litter, breeders shall transfer ownership and register each dog in the name of the purchaser in accordance with stated requirements."

Where are you in Canada, what colour/size poodle are you looking for?

My breeder just had a litter, though all the pups may be spoken for.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Don't even ask why this has come to mind, just wierd intuition. But, when I hear two things from someone, "personal problem" and not wanted income tracked; I am thinking, maybe, divorce..........child support, etc.?

I am very sad that you are going through this, and I certainly know what it is like to be waiting for so long and maybe to not end up with the pup that you were planning on and virtually falling in love with. I know it can really hurt, but believe me, if your instincts tell you it is a bad situation, it probably is.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

There was a problem with my puppy's registration papers. A former co-owner of the dam was still one there and the papers could not be processed without her signature. 

The breeder is bending over backwards to get is sorted out ASAP.

They have to re-registered the no-longer-co-owned dam to get new litter papers so that the whole litter can get their individual AKC papers.

I have nothing to add to the great advice you've been given. I wanted to give you an example of a what a reputable breeder does when there are registration paper issues.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If you were told the litter would be registered when you put your deposit on the pup, the insist on getting back your money or tell them you will report them to the CKC AND write a letter about your experience to the Squeakywheel.com then do both.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Actually, when i made my deposit, i already know that the puppy would not be registered. Why i continued on this road? Because i'm not experienced! It's my first dog, and i'm learning right now. The breeder said to me that i didn't need the registration papers if i was not planning to show him. Which i won't. But, while i was searching on K9 sports to do with my puppy, i discovered that actually i need the papers to do some events offered by the CKC. Some people said to me, too, that buying a puppy a big amount of cash is too much if he isn't registered. 

Yes, i have a receipt for the reservation. The deposit is non-refundable. 

Ladywolfe : your intuition is good.
Tortoise : the breeder is now in a similar situation.

I was searching a lot for another reputable breeder recently. I found no one who have puppies available now or soon (before august). When i was searching for a reputable breeder, i found one who is really good. She helps me a lot to understand all the administration behind the process. At first, i didn't mention my story, just i was searching for a puppy. She didn't knew i was knowing my breeder, but she mention him when she was searching for reputables breeders i can contact to ask if they have puppies available (she didn't plan a litter this year). So, then i explain my story. She told me that she knew the owners, and she was surprised by my situation, because the breeder is a reputable one! She knows the dogs, and said to me they are good and healthy dogs! That is why i would like to stay with my current breeder. The dogs are fine, it's the breeder behind them who is not!

What does it means : ASAP?


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

The CKC does have a Performance Event Number (PEN) for sports but I don't know if you'd be able to get it on your dog since you got it from a CKC breeder that just didn't register the litter. My rescue has a PEN for sports. 

If you want to compete in sports some day you'll NEED those papers with this dog.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

Elfywara said:


> What does it means : ASAP?


ASAP = As Soon As Possible


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Elfywara said:


> Hi everyone!
> 
> I need your advice.
> 
> ...


Dear Elfywara;

Did the breeder tell you the puppy was purebred? Did he say the parents were purebred?

If I were in your shoes *I would walk away*. This breeder may have a good reputation but if he is breeding and will not provide papers he is not reputable anymore. People who hide income are cheaters. They are cheating the government and all the Canadian taxpayers. I would be afraid to buy a puppy from a cheater.

The laws of Canada require that if you call a dog. or another animal, purebred you must provide the papers at *no extra cost*.

If the breeder is a member of the CKC he can be made to give you the papers by the CKC, but your puppy must be identified by a microchip or tattoo before he leaves the breeders home.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Elfywara said:


> Actually, when i made my deposit, i already know that the puppy would not be registered. Why i continued on this road? Because i'm not experienced! It's my first dog, and i'm learning right now. The breeder said to me that i didn't need the registration papers if i was not planning to show him. Which i won't. But, while i was searching on K9 sports to do with my puppy, i discovered that actually i need the papers to do some events offered by the CKC. Some people said to me, too, that buying a puppy a big amount of cash is too much if he isn't registered.
> 
> Yes, i have a receipt for the reservation. The deposit is non-refundable.
> 
> ...


Why did you ask for advice about what to do if you have already made up your mind to stay with your current breeder?

If it were me I would demand my money back (threaten with reporting them to CKC if necessary) and go with a reputable breeder.

It sounds like you will get no future support from this breeder should you need it for any reason. It also sounds like he might be doing something illegal or at the very least unsavory.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

KrystaLynn : Thanks for this interesting information!

My puppy is supposed to come with a microchip. 
The dam is registered with the CKC. The sire with the AKC.



> Why did you ask for advice about what to do if you have already made up your mind to stay with your current breeder?


Actually, i didn't made up my mind yet. That's why i'm here : to have advice. I do not search for an answer "go-for-it-it's-ok!!" to move on. I need support, which i have, a lot. All the comments i receive gives me the strength to be firm with the breeder, because i want to try to change his mind and register the litter. I collect the more advice i can to kick my ass and be firm in my demands. It's a way to have confidence in what i want, a way to prove that i'm not demanding to much. This situation stress me a lot.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

Elfywara said:


> KrystaLynn : Thanks for this interesting information!
> 
> My puppy is supposed to come with a microchip.
> The dam is registered with the CKC. The sire with the AKC.
> ...


There are so many factors that need to be considered when it comes to purchasing a puppy. Every single person has their own list of requirements that they will not budge on. Those lists have varied components to them, but almost all of them have some type of requirement about registration papers on the list. People are passionate about the breed, passionate about their puppy/dog, have very strong opinions, and as such no one can really tell you what to do. You knew from the begining that you would not get registration papers for the puppy so I wonder what is going on that has you concerned.

In the end you have to decide how important registration papers are to you and then follow through on what you believe is important. You are in a difficult position and I wish you luck in whatever you decided is the right choice for you, your home, and your puppy!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

If I was you, I'd simply email the breeder that you need the papers to do some CKC events. If he/she replies back saying he/she can't, tell him/her that under those circumstances you have no choice but to forward his/her message to the CKC. Alternately, did you put the deposit on a credit card? If so, contact the company and dispute the charge. Or do both. This person is doing something illegal, and knows it. I suspect you'll get your deposit back, pronto.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I know nothing about the Canadian process but to me some things stick out just like others on here have stated. On the positive there parents at least have been OFA for hips have they had any other testing? He has registered their results with the OFA- good. Another breeder had suggested this breeder-good. On the negative- I hate people not paying on the taxes. If I have to pay then the next person should have to pay period. I have my own business & I pay my taxes sometimes very hefty but that is part of our Social Security system etc.. that I am paying on. IF the Canadian Kennel Club states that all purebreedes MUST be registered then IT MUST be done. For me pesoanlly anybody that breeds dogs as a "BUSINESS" I will NEVER by from. Might as well just go to a Puppy Mill- they are a "BUSINESS". Maybe in Canada if you breed you must call it a "business" I don't know. It does sicken me enough to think that this person is "churning" out pups & is scared about his taxes so as to not register his pups to hide "income". I was always taught that a good breeder very rarely ever makes money & often losses money- health expenses, showing expenses, etc... they do it for the passion of the breed & the love of sporting their dogs.

Good luck- stay firm & know your Canadian Law about buying a Registered Purebreed pup.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I would not pay more than a couple hundred dollars for an unregistered puppy. You could just go to the pound and find a nice puppy otherwise. If you are paying more than that, I would walk away. I am sorry you are going through this.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> Why did you ask for advice about what to do if you have already made up your mind to stay with your current breeder?
> 
> If it were me I would demand my money back (threaten with reporting them to CKC if necessary) and go with a reputable breeder.
> 
> It sounds like you will get no future support from this breeder should you need it for any reason. It also sounds like he might be doing something illegal or at the very least unsavory.


Paddle: I don't get the impression that the OP has made their mind up yet. 

To the OP: I agree with the suggestion that many have made - if you feel that you would like to stay with this breeder, I would firmly explain that you need registration papers otherwise you are walking away and/or might report them for breaking the law. (Can you do this? I am not familiar with Canadian laws).


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Elfywara said:


> She knows the dogs, and said to me they are good and healthy dogs! That is why i would like to stay with my current breeder. The dogs are fine, it's the breeder behind them who is not!


Sorry OP, I must have misinterpreted this statement...

I don't think you will have much luck convincing this person to register the litter if he has already stated he does not wish to do so.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> Sorry OP, I must have misinterpreted this statement...
> 
> I don't think you will have much luck convincing this person to register the litter if he has already stated he does not wish to do so.


I think it's reasonable to *want* to stay with a breeder, especially if you have cash and emotional deposits! That said, even if you *want* to stay with a breeder, there are many aspects to be weighed before making a decision. Of this I believe the OP is aware.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am fairly sure I know who you are talking about. If this is the case, I know the sire and can vouch for him, but regardless, if there is a divorce or something like that going on, there is no telling how ugly this could get. I would assume if the dog was bred while the couple was still a couple, then legally the puppies could be regarded as the property of both of them, so if one decides to go after the other and the pups have been sold...what then? Could you be put in a position where you have to give the pup up while they fight their battles? I would not get involved with this without CKC papers, with the signatures of both owners if there indeed are two, if for no other reason that to protect yourself.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> In the end you have to decide how important registration papers are to you and then follow through on what you believe is important.


This is the basic of this thread. I have to decide what i think is important to me. And it's very stressful!

LEUllman : I pay cash for the deposit. The breeder already know that i want the registration papers.

outwest : It is exactly what i realize myself past few weeks ago. Actually, the breeder, few months ago, told me that i would pay less for the puppy, because he was not registered. But, last week, he said to me that i need to pay 500$ more for the puppy!!! I was choked! When i tell him that he said i would pay X$, he said he never told me that. He even told me that some people will pay the full price for the puppy, even if he is not registered. That's a special price for me...

CharismaticMillie : Yes, i'm aware. That is why i'm here. Buying a puppy is suppose to be exciting. Instead of that emotion, i'm riding a roller coaster of doubt, deception and sadness. 

PaddleAddict : No harm done here! Is the OP is me? What does it means?

ArreauStandardPoodle : The couple had broken when the breeding took place. 

Yesterday, i made a research on the Internet, in the classifieds. I found some "family breeder" in my province, and i wrote to them. Two have answered me yet. One breeder tell me that no one of her dogs was tested, even for the hip dysplasia. She told me that she offered 3 years guaranty for this matter, and that she honor her contract if something bad happen. Eveything else seems good to me (on the paper). But, for me, and for what i know, not having the dogs tested is worse than not having the registration papers for the puppy. What do you think?

The other breeder seems to be very "in the knowing" of her breeding program. I ask a lot of questions, and everything seems to be perfect! The puppies are registered to the CKC (she send me the links for the pedigree of the sire and dam), the parents are tested for multiple health problems (links for OFA too), she have only 4 dogs and they live in the house with her, etc. I will write to her tonight and ask her to visit her this weekend. The only thing that is bothering me is the type of her poodles... Particolor. I don't know much about what is accepted in the breed. I red once that the particolor poodle was bred before with the Portuguese water dog to introduce this type of color. Is that true? Some people think that particolor poodles (and phantom poodle) are not real poodles. What do you think? Is the particolor is accepted in the show of CKC and AKC?

I spot another breeder, in Ontario, that seems to be a really good breeder too (i visited her website, but i didn't wrote to her yet). She is doing particolor ans phantom poodles. So, this weekend, i'll try to visit the breeder of particolor poodle, and i will also visit my current breeder and try to convince him to change is mind and register the litter. I don't think i will succeed, but, you know, it's worth the try.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

OP = Original Poster (person who started the thread)

For me personally, if I had to pick between fully health tested pups and registration papers, health testing is going to win every single time. 

For me, personally, if I am going to pay money to a breeder for a puppy I want both and in todays “market” there are puppies out there that are available so that you do not have to make that choice, you can have both. 



Elfywara said:


> Actually, when i made my deposit, i already know that the puppy would not be registered. QUOTE]
> 
> I guess my biggest confusion comes in with understanding why you would put down a nonrefundable deposit on a litter of puppies that you knew from the beginning would not be given registration papers. It appears to me registration was not an issue for you before but now it is.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yes, OP = original poster. That is you, Elfywara. I am sorry you are having to go through this rollercoaster of emotion. Hopefully you will follow your gut and make the right choice, whatever that may be.


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## Dante's Mom (Apr 14, 2010)

Parti-color and phantom I'm pretty sure are NOT accepted by AKC. That said, my personal opinion would be to walk away from this breeder--even if I could not get my deposit back. Especially since now after you gave a deposit, agreed on a price, and they are trying to get you to pay more?


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

GlennBaxterFamily : With my readings and my questions on several forums, i understood that registration papers was important. At first, several months ago (when i made my deposit), the breeder convince me that i didn't need the papers of the puppy for what i was planning to do with it. So, i accepted not to have the papers, with doubt though. You know, when your emotion get in the road... I was to hasty. Now, i'm paying the price. It's this doubt that push me to fully search for real and accurate information. Even today, the breeder continue to say that i don't need to have my puppy registered to do, for example, agility.



> OP = Original Poster (person who started the thread)


Ah ah! I need a dictionary to understand those net code!

CharismaticMillie : Thanks! Actually, i think i will be able, when i will make my decision, to stand behind my choice. I may be in a storm of emotion right now, but when i decide to do something, i assume my choice fully.

Dante's Mom : The parti poodle are accepted in CKC. I just saw the pedigree online of the sire and dam. The sire is even a champion in the UKC.

Can you show me good thread that explain the opinion and fact about the particolor and the phantom color in the poodle? I want to learn! They don't talk about it in books i brought about poodle.


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## Dante's Mom (Apr 14, 2010)

Elfywara said:


> Dante's Mom : The parti poodle are accepted in CKC. I just saw the pedigree online of the sire and dam. The sire is even a champion in the UKC.


Yes, I knew that they were accepted CKC. I was answering your question about AKC. And if AKC acceptance is not a concern, then a parti- or phantom is mostly about color preference.



Elfywara said:


> The other breeder seems to be very "in the knowing" of her breeding program. I ask a lot of questions, and everything seems to be perfect! The puppies are registered to the CKC (she send me the links for the pedigree of the sire and dam), the parents are tested for multiple health problems (links for OFA too), she have only 4 dogs and they live in the house with her, etc. I will write to her tonight and ask her to visit her this weekend. The only thing that is bothering me is the type of her poodles... Particolor. I don't know much about what is accepted in the breed. I red once that the particolor poodle was bred before with the Portuguese water dog to introduce this type of color. Is that true? Some people think that particolor poodles (and phantom poodle) are not real poodles. What do you think? Is the particolor is accepted in the show of CKC and AKC?.


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

This is what the CKC has to say about poodle colour (bolding is mine); 

"Coat Colour and Skin
Any solid colour. The coat is an even solid colour at the skin. In the
blues, greys, silvers, browns, café-au-laits, apricots, and creams, the coat
may show varying shades of the same colour. This is frequently present
in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the
ruff. Note: the tan-point pattern expressed in light and dark shades of
the same colour is to be discouraged. While clear colours are definitely
preferred, such natural variations in the shading of the coat are not to be
considered faults. Brown and café-au-lait Poodles may have browncoloured
noses, eye rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes.
Black, blue, grey, silver, cream, and white Poodles have black noses, eye
rims and lips, and black or self-coloured toenails, and very dark eyes. In
the apricots, while the foregoing colour is preferred, brown noses, eye
rims and lips and dark amber eyes are permitted, but not desirable.
*Particoloured Poodles shall be disqualified*. Particoloured is at least two
definite colours appearing in clearly defined markings at the skin. The
skin is pliable, tight, and not mottled."

There ARE some agility and rally-o clubs outside of the CKC that you can compete in without having your dog registered.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

Elfywara said:


> GlennBaxterFamily : With my readings and my questions on several forums, i understood that registration papers was important. At first, several months ago (when i made my deposit), the breeder convince me that i didn't need the papers of the puppy for what i was planning to do with it. So, i accepted not to have the papers, with doubt though. You know, when your emotion get in the road... I was to hasty. Now, i'm paying the price. It's this doubt that push me to fully search for real and accurate information. Even today, the breeder continue to say that i don't need to have my puppy registered to do, for example, agility.
> 
> 
> Ah ah! I need a dictionary to understand those net code!QUOTE]
> ...


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> OP = Original Poster (person who started the thread)
> 
> For me personally, if I had to pick between *fully health tested pups *and registration papers, health testing is going to win every single time. quote]
> 
> That was not written correctly. What I meant to type was fully health tested parents of the litter, and registration papers, health testing is going to win every single time.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I would love to own an intensely marked parti standard poodle!

Here is how I always looked at it: (Taken from: * Standard Parti Poodles *



> The Parti - Coloured Poodle
> If you look back into the history of the Poodle you will find the Parti-Coloured Poodle as its core. They have been in existance since the beginning of Poodle breeding. It is a natural occurring part of the original Poodle gene pool. History has shown Parti - Coloured Poodles from the beginning of time, some were shown in the early days and are documented as far back as the late 1800's and early 1900's. It wasn't until the 20th Century that for some unknown reason the Poodle Clubs disqualified the Parti - Coloured Poodle in the conformation ring, but because of the Breed Standard these Parti - Coloured Poodles were pushed into the background and because breeders selected out Parti - Coloured Poodles, in the last century, the numbers of them sadly decreased.
> 
> Nowadays Parti-Poodles are becoming much more popular again and are currently experiencing a strong comeback in the USA and throughout most of Europe. In January 2004 the United Kennel Club, revised the Poodle Breed Standard to eliminate the disqualification for Multi - Coloured Poodles. The United Kennel Club Breed Standard now places Solid Coloured and Multi - Coloured Poodles on equal footing as one breed.
> ...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If the parti breeder is Lyne...I'd go with the parti. She is, in my opinion, doing everything right, and is a forthcoming, wonderful woman!

And I agree. While neither should be an issue, I'd take health testing over papers too.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

GlennBaxterFamily : Yes, i know that something similar to the ILP program from the AKC is available in Canada. Someone told me it is PEN before on this thread. But that person said to me that because my current breeder is with CKC, maybe i cannot have the PEN for my dog. I have to search for that information. 



> Your options for competitions are limited, but you do have options.


That is why i want the papers (with other reason too). I want to be able to do all the events i want, from the CKC to AAC. 

Ladywolfe : Thanks for that information! It is quite interesting! At first, i didn't liked the particolor poodle. But, actually, i kind of learn to love it, with my attemp to find another breeder! They are beautiful!

ArreauStandardPoodle : It is not Lyne. But she sells a lovely female to the breeder i want to see this weekend. This female is the mother of the future litter due in may. You will probably find her easily!  I visit the website of Lyne (i didn't know her before your comment). She seems to be a reputable breeder, from what i saw.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Partis and Phantoms can certainly be registered in AKC and can participate in all the performance events, like obedience, rally, and agility. They just can't show in the conformation ring. Is it like this in the CKC? In UKC, they can do it all. My tuxedo parti, Sugarfoot, has AKC and UKC papers.

Very frustrating situation you're going through. I know how difficult it can be when your heart gets involved. I wish you luck whichever way you decide!

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The results of the Poodle Club of Canada vote are in, and partis will now be allowed to compete in CKC sanctioned conformation shows. They will not be shown as a separate entity, but against their solid coloured cousins.


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

That's great news, I never understand why some colours are allowed and others aren't.

The PEN forms are #6 here if you want to see what all you need; The Canadian Kennel Club > CKC Services > CKC Forms On-line > Other Shows & Trial Forms


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> The PEN forms are #6 here if you want to see what all you need; The Canadian Kennel Club > CKC Services > CKC Forms On-line > Other Shows & Trial Forms


Thanks for the link! But i think it couldn't work for me. When i read the number 2 of the eligibility (The dog, for one reason or another, must not be eligible for CKC registration), i think they will not accept my dog for the PEN. My puppy can be eligible for CKC registration... Maybe it can work if they don't ask where i buy my dog.


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

Exactly, I just wanted you to see the form and be armed with the knowledge that it won't work for your dog incase the breeder tries to tell you that it will.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Okay! Thanks again!


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Parti colors can be registered in AKC, CKC, and UKC. right now they can only be shown in conformation in UKC. Poodle Club of Canada has approved for partis to be shown, but it still needs to be approved by Canadian Kennel Club. not sure how long that will take, but will be a while yet.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

That's the parti breeder said to me too.

I'll meet her this saturday! Will see if it's a good breeder for me.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> The results of the Poodle Club of Canada vote are in, and partis will now be allowed to compete in CKC sanctioned conformation shows. They will not be shown as a separate entity, but against their solid coloured cousins.


How civilised :canada:


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Elfywara said:


> Can you show me good thread that explain the opinion and fact about the particolor and the phantom color in the poodle? I want to learn! They don't talk about it in books i brought about poodle.


I love my parti boy! Here is a thread with great pictures of our unusual furkids
http://www.poodleforum.com/36-poodle-rainbow/15860-phantom-parti-blue-other-color-thread.html


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks for the link Kloliver!

I spoke with some people on another forum (not poodle forum, but shepherd forum), and they are absolutely NOT for the particolor poodle, since he is not accepted in the conformation ring. Plus, they are very concern that my potential breeder does not show her dogs, nor doing agility, obedience or whatever canine sport. Is that really a matter? If i buy a quality puppy, but the sire and dam does no show or canine sport events, plus they are not in the standard of the breed (particolor), do i made such a wrong choice of breeder?

I'm beginning to be tired of this. It's like i can't find a good breeder. Maybe i should just listen to my guts... Or adopt a rescue poodle. I will save a life and it will be a blessing for my head : no more Tylenol taken for headaches.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

I know you came here to get advice on your situation, and I think we've all responded with our various opinions on non-registered dogs.

However, in regards to the reputable breeder portion, I think you are depending too much on various opinions.

The questions you should ask a breeder are in my opinion:

Do you perform health testing on your dogs, and if so, what testing.
Are the dogs registered, as you want to enter CKC events with your dog.
What are their temperaments like, can you meet the sire and dam?
Colour is a preference, properly bred parti's , mis-marked dogs can be just as healthy as a solid coloured dog, the only difference is you can't do conformation, you can do all other events with a registered parti or mis-marked

Here is a wonderful website to help you evaluate a breeder:

http://www.vipoodle.org/PDF_Files/Standard_Poodle.pdf

There are many reputable breeders out there, I told you I knew a breeder who was having 2 litters this Summer. I don't know where you are, perhaps if you tell us where you are located, we can help you find a suitable breeder. Or you can visit:

Poodle Breeders in Canada, Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles, Standard Poodles, puppies, puppy, breeder

Of course a rescue is a nice idea too, .


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Thank you for the link of Versatility In Poodle. I already knew the website and i red those pages about how to find a reputable breeder, with his website, etc. Good advice. I also visited the website of Poodle breeders in Canada. 

I live in Quebec, 20 minutes from the border of the USA. I know 3 reputable breeders here : Omar standard poodles, Glicks standard poodles and Seraphim standard poodles. I contacted the 3. Catherine from Seraphim answered me and help me a lot to go through with my current breeder problem. She is so a nice person! Lisa from Glicks contact me too. Both are not having puppies this year, maybe in the end, perhaps. Omar never answered me (i contact the breeder 2 weeks ago). I will try again for Omar. 



> I think you are depending too much on various opinions


That is what i'm thinking too. But since it's my first time buying puppy experience, i want to do it right. I discovered a whole world in here. I learn a lot, and it's good for me. I want to be a good buyer. 



> Do you perform health testing on your dogs, and if so, what testing.
> Are the dogs registered, as you want to enter CKC events with your dog.
> What are their temperaments like, can you meet the sire and dam?


Keep that in mind.

I visit the parti-coloured poodle this morning. Her dogs are tested for hips, elbows and eyes (dam) + VWB and encephalo for the sire. The puppies will be register, good guaranty, she will perform a temperament test on her puppies at 7 weeks, vaccine, deworm, etc. I thrilling to visit her!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Elfywara said:


> Thank you for the link of Versatility In Poodle. I already knew the website and i red those pages about how to find a reputable breeder, with his website, etc. Good advice. I also visited the website of Poodle breeders in Canada.
> 
> I live in Quebec, 20 minutes from the border of the USA. I know 3 reputable breeders here : Omar standard poodles, Glicks standard poodles and Seraphim standard poodles. I contacted the 3. Catherine from Seraphim answered me and help me a lot to go through with my current breeder problem. She is so a nice person! Lisa from Glicks contact me too. Both are not having puppies this year, maybe in the end, perhaps. Omar never answered me (i contact the breeder 2 weeks ago). I will try again for Omar.
> 
> ...


You have been or you are going? Please tell Barbara I said hello! And let us know how your experience is with her. She is a fine woman.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Elfywara said:


> Plus, they are very concern that my potential breeder does not show her dogs, nor doing agility, obedience or whatever canine sport. Is that really a matter?


If the breeder does not compete in any venue, you have no measure of the quality of any aspect of the dogs - conformation, biddability, athelticism, temperament, etc. - there is no way YOU can expect any quality in the puppies. You are left to rely on the breeder's honesty (or not) and kennel-blind (they think their dogs are great but they're not).

If you were experienced in puppy buying, you would be able to see right away if the puppies have behavior predictors for the qualities you want. But if this is a first for you, you're better off looking for a puppy that will have predictable health, temperament and energy level. You can do that by finding a breeder that is trustworthy, or going to rescues and getting a young adult dog that is still highly trainable but you can already see the dog's temperament, structure, coat texture, etc.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Elfy, I'm familiar with all those breeders. I'm good friends with Catherine and you are right, she is a wonderful person, and will help you all she can!

I know another reputable breeder and handler who is having a litter in 7 weeks. She lives near Toronto. The pups are from an extremely well known sire, and Best in Specialty Show, Poodle Club of America Award of Merit Dam. I believe the puppies will be black.

I do believe that you are trying to be the best buyer, and I strongly respect all the work you are doing. I'm sorry if I sounded curt, I didn't mean to be. I was just thinking of my early days, and all the information that came at me, lol. I found it easier to rely on one or two people for guidance as every owner/breeder has their own thoughts on things.

I will send you a Private Message with the breeders name and information.

Colina


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

tortoise said:


> If the breeder does not compete in any venue, you have no measure of the quality of any aspect of the dogs - conformation, biddability, athelticism, temperament, etc. - there is no way YOU can expect any quality in the puppies. You are left to rely on the breeder's honesty (or not) and kennel-blind (they think their dogs are great but they're not).
> 
> If you were experienced in puppy buying, you would be able to see right away if the puppies have behavior predictors for the qualities you want. But if this is a first for you, you're better off looking for a puppy that will have predictable health, temperament and energy level. You can do that by finding a breeder that is trustworthy, or going to rescues and getting a young adult dog that is still highly trainable but you can already see the dog's temperament, structure, coat texture, etc.


I do not agree. While it is nice to have these things as a gage, they are not the end all and be all. Can you get references to contact? Do that. The former buyers will be happy to tell you of their experiences with the breeder and what their dog's temperament has been like.

I did not get involved in conformation for many reasons, one of them the fact I have agoraphobia, which is a fear of crowds. Pups produced during this time have gone on to get titles..Rally, CGN's, Conformation (thank you Murphy) and are working on a Red Cross search and rescue title. So are you saying that during the time I could not set foot in an arena because of my phobia, that nobody should have purchased on of my pups? Sorry, but there are a lot of people who would disagree with you big time, namely the folks who DID get one of my pups. Are you saying my pups are biddable and worthy, so long as this phobia stays in check and I can go to shows and CGN tests and Rally trials, but in the event I can no longer do these things, my pups are no longer worthy of someone's consideration?

My mother co-owned an extremely influential silver male- Bibelot Cherod Tinsmith. He sired 30 litters of puppies, many of whom are champions in the field, in conformation, in obedience, rally, agility, herding. He was not a champion, nor was he ever shown other than in exhibitions. He did not have a title in anything, but was one of the kindest, sweet spirited dogs on the face of the earth, who has sired some remarkable progeny who have gone on to do wonderful things. Good thing not everyone agrees with your way of thinking!


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*Seraphim poodles*

You could never go wrong with one of Cathrerine's puppies! Catherine is a lovely lady with gorgeous, health checked poodles, and I almost bought a puppy from her- in fact, the ONLY thing that stopped me was the distance from NJ to Canada.I just really wanted to go with a more local breeder.
I would recommend Catherine highly.
Dolores


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

papoodles said:


> You could never go wrong with one of Cathrerine's puppies! Catherine is a lovely lady with gorgeous, health checked poodles, and I almost bought a puppy from her- in fact, the ONLY thing that stopped me was the distance from NJ to Canada.I just really wanted to go with a more local breeder.
> I would recommend Catherine highly.
> Dolores


As would I! Catherine Kerr of Seraphim Poodles is a lovely human being as well as having some glorious whites and blacks. I think you said she is not having a littler for at least a year, but if you can wait, her dogs would bee worth the wait!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not agree. While it is nice to have these things as a gage, they are not the end all and be all. Can you get references to contact? Do that. The former buyers will be happy to tell you of their experiences with the breeder and what their dog's temperament has been like.
> 
> I did not get involved in conformation for many reasons, one of them the fact I have agoraphobia, which is a fear of crowds. Pups produced during this time have gone on to get titles..Rally, CGN's, Conformation (thank you Murphy) and are working on a Red Cross search and rescue title. So are you saying that during the time I could not set foot in an arena because of my phobia, that nobody should have purchased on of my pups? Sorry, but there are a lot of people who would disagree with you big time, namely the folks who DID get one of my pups. Are you saying my pups are biddable and worthy, so long as this phobia stays in check and I can go to shows and CGN tests and Rally trials, but in the event I can no longer do these things, my pups are no longer worthy of someone's consideration?
> 
> My mother co-owned an extremely influential silver male- Bibelot Cherod Tinsmith. He sired 30 litters of puppies, many of whom are champions in the field, in conformation, in obedience, rally, agility, herding. He was not a champion, nor was he ever shown other than in exhibitions. He did not have a title in anything, but was one of the kindest, sweet spirited dogs on the face of the earth, who has sired some remarkable progeny who have gone on to do wonderful things. Good thing not everyone agrees with your way of thinking!


Since when did this forum become so anti-show breeders???


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

How did you interpret Arreau's post as being "non show breeding"? And additionally, how does one person's post make the entire forum "non show breeding"? You may not have meant it that way, but that's the way it came across to me.

Arreau was stating that a dog doesn't HAVE to be a show/performance dog to be a good dog. She also said that performance/showing were a good gauge as to a dog's ability/conformation. She also endorsed Catherine, a show breeder.

I also endorsed a show breeder, as have several other members in this thread...so nope, we're not anti show breeder here!


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> I do believe that you are trying to be the best buyer, and I strongly respect all the work you are doing. I'm sorry if I sounded curt, I didn't mean to be. I was just thinking of my early days, and all the information that came at me, lol. I found it easier to rely on one or two people for guidance as every owner/breeder has their own thoughts on things.


No harm taken! Hope that this experience i'm living right now will no reproduce in the future when i will buy my second dog! It's exhausting. But i know it's a part in the process. 

About Catherine : It's a pearl! She is so kind with me! She is willing to informed me and give me her support. She answer my email so quickly with good advice. Just positive words to say about her!

Ok. So, what i understand, it is up to me to accept or not a breeder who perform her dogs in conformation show, agility, etc. I have to "do a head" about that (expression in french : _se faire une tête_ = to make a decision about something). 

About Barbara : I visited her this morning, spend 2 hours with her. She is very sympathetic! I ask all the questions i should ask. She answered me with honesty, she always look me in the eye and spend time to explain everything i ask her. I visit the house, saw the place where the puppies will be born. Saw the backyard. Everything is good. I spend 2 hours to talk to her, while i was petting her 3 dogs! Her dogs are so calm in the house! Jeez, i was stunned! They were adorable, always demanding to be pet, really obedient. The place is clean, so the dogs (contrary of my current breeder...). She already said to me that if i want a dog for agility and obedience, i should go with the couple Tao x Bluz. The other female is more "potato couch" and in the past litter (one litter for each Tao and Lily), the puppies of Tao x Bluz had more "drive" than the puppies of Lily. She said she would have recommend 2-3 puppies from the past litter of Tao x Bluz for agility and obedience. I have a good feeling about her. The puppies are supposed to born in 4 weeks. I didn't say i'll take a puppy though. I want to sleep on that. Be sure to embrace everything. But, surely, i'm feeling so more confident in this breeder than the other! I'll call tomorrow my current breeder to tell him in won't take a puppy from him. I'll loose my deposit, but i think it's for the best.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Poodle Lover said:


> Since when did this forum become so anti-show breeders???


I believe you have misinterpreted Arreau's post & are over-generalising. *If *you haven't read the whole thread, it may be a good idea to do so & absorb the context in which it was written :act-up:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you Fond of Poodles and Kloliver! I have nothing at all against showing, IF that is a breeder's cup of tea. If it isn't, that does not make them a bad breeder. I know tons of breeders who are older and cannot keep up with coat. Unless they have oodles of money to send a pup out to live with a handler, I do not see how them not showing makes them a breeder who should be overlooked. I know others who have anxiety disorder, as I do. I do not feel their inability to attend shows makes them a breeder who should be over looked. 

I only have a problem with a show breeder who only breeds to produce a pup who will win. Ribbons and accolades are not the most important things. Breeding healthy, good tempered puppies who enhance a family are the most important things (in my opinion.) I have researched enough pedigrees to know the ones where a show specimen was the goal. It is very obvious when you see dog after dog in a pedigree with "parent of bloat" "parent of S/A" "parent of HD" "parent of Addisons" that they bred the dog for something, and it obviously was not health. THIS is when I personally have an issue with show breeding. But, they are not all like that. I endorsed Catherine Kerr because she is a wonderful person who breeds wonderful dogs. I also refer people to Signet, High Profile, and others because I happen to like what I see and what I hear about them.

I have two girls I hope to have titled. And one of my puppies (Murphy) will be competing at the World Show in Salzburg. Thinking about any of the three of them in the ring sends chills up my spine so,I also do not get how you interpreted my post as being anti showing, or how that one post makes it seem like the entire forum is anti showing...


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

The accomplishments of progeny is certainly the best way to prove the sire and dam.

IF you can convince people to buy the first litter and title them.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

tortoise said:


> The accomplishments of progeny is certainly the best way to prove the sire and dam.
> 
> IF you can convince people to buy the first litter and title them.


I have never asked or expected people to do this, but they have, and for that I am extremely grateful. It did not take any convincing.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> [...] I know tons of breeders who are older and cannot keep up with coat. Unless they have oodles of money to send a pup out to live with a handler, I do not see how them not showing makes them a breeder who should be overlooked. I know others who have anxiety disorder, as I do. I do not feel their inability to attend shows makes them a breeder who should be over looked.
> 
> I only have a problem with a show breeder who only breeds to produce a pup who will win. Ribbons and accolades are not the most important things. Breeding healthy, good tempered puppies who enhance a family are the most important things (in my opinion.) [...]


No kidding & not to mention the time commitment if one does NOT have the money to hire a handler. That's like asking a mother of 10 pre- school children to take on more responsibility in her _spare_ time. *LOL*

Let's remember, all show dogs, need to blend with a family after their career in the ring is over. Of course, we all desire the *perfect* blend of form & temperament but perfection is a fool's game- unachievable. 

If I wanted to own a show quality dog & ended up not showing him, wld I be a 'bad' person? Wld this dog be considered 'wasted' potential? Maybe by some but most importantly wld :dog: even care?- Uhhhhh no. Wld this dog be any less loved or amazing in his own right? Don't we teach our kids to play for fun- not to win?

Ok, :focus:, *OP*, go with your gut on this. Maybe you can get your deposit back, maybe not. That will fade in comparison to knowing you did what felt right & having a healthy wriggly puppy look adoringly into your eyes- whenever that's meant to be.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Janis Morrison Bates of Sandhill Standard Poodles is located in Hudson, Quebec.
She health tests and titles her dogs. They are beautiful poodles. She is expecting a litter this spring.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Your breeder changed the price of the puppy. If your breeder does not refund the deposit take him to small claims court as he changed the terms of your agreement after he had your deposit money.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> Your breeder changed the price of the puppy. If your breeder does not refund the deposit take him to small claims court as he changed the terms of your agreement after he had your deposit money.


I will try to have my money back, but i don't think he will give me the deposit i made, since he kind of breed right now to have more money... I don't have any proof that he change the price, i didn't fulfill a contract when i made a deposit. So it's is words against mine. Anyway, like Kloliver said, i will feeling more confident with another good breeder than him, so it worth the lost money. But yeah, i'll try first!

This discussion is really interesting! I learn a lot!

truelovepoodles : Oh my God! Where did you find this breeder? She is like the Cadillac of breeders! For what i see on her website, everything is perfect! I'm writing to her now!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I, also, looked at Sandyhill's website. This looks like a great breeder! I like what she says and her dogs are very nice looking. Good luck Elfywara! I hope to hear you getting a puppy soon.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Janis Bates answered me in the morning. The dogs aren't even conceived yet, and she already have 10 people on her waiting list. I can fulfill the questionnaire if i want, maybe someone will changes his mind. Anyway, i will go with the parti-coloured poodle breeder i saw yesterday. Everything seems to be fine, i have a good feeling about her. The only thing i'm not so comfortable with, it's the fact that the parti-coloured poodle are not accepted in the conformation ring. But, i don't want to do shows, not at all. I want to do agility and obedience events, and as long as my poodle in registered, the color is not a problem. For me, having a healthy dog and a good buying experience is more important than having a "perfect in the high standard" poodle. It's just sometime, comments from "purists" (don't take it personally everyone, i don't know which word to write) makes me have little doubts. That's all. 

So, now, i will call my new breeder, and reserve that little "hope puppy" of mine. I hope that this choice will be the one. In 4 weeks, i could have a real puppy in my house. Instead of that, in 4 weeks, my "hope puppy" will born. I have to be patient! Anyway, it will give me more time to continue my readings and to buy a lot of other goods for my new friend!


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Oh so sorry...I had high hopes that Janis would have a pup for you. She is a member of the Poodle Club of Canada. One of the families that purchased a pup from me, previously owned and loved a poodle from her. 

You never know, a lot of people change their mind before the pups are born...she may have one available. Depends if she is taking deposits.

At any rate Parti's may be accepted sooner than later in the CKC breed standard. 

I wish you luck.
Sherry


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Today, i made a deposit (400$) to my new breeder!!! I choose to wait for my future puppy (i will have it around the middle of July), instead of buying the puppy from my last breeder. I could have a gorgeous red puppy poodle, but i decide to go with a more respectable breeder. I kind of love the black/white particolor anyway, with full of ticking, they are even more beautiful!

I didn't tell my last breeder i didn't want his puppy anymore yet. I'll tell him this weekend. I wanted to tell him face to face, but actually, i may tell him by phone. If i go there, and see my ex-future-puppy, i will melt... Argh. It was a difficult choice, because my heart was implicated. But my head tell me to go away quickly (and you guys too!), so i did. I'm happy with my choice now, more serene. Now i will sleep tight in the night!!!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Keep in mind that many/most parti litters include puppies that ARE solid colored. You could ask for a solid colored puppy as a first choice.  I am glad you are happy, but sorry you have to wait so long.


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## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm glad you've found yourself a breeder! I'm currently looking for a breeder myself and know what you went through looking for the right one. It's hard but I think you made the right choice.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I am so happy that yound found a breeder that you trust. July is right around the corner!!!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I'm happy to hear that you have come to a decision that makes you feel comfortable. I don't recommend visiting your breeder in person. You will see "your" puppy and I think it would be too hard to walk away. You might change your mind. 

You could always send your breeder an email saying why you changed your mind (no registration on the puppies, he quoted you one price and then said you had to pay more) so it's listed out in writing and you don't get flustered.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> Keep in mind that many/most parti litters include puppies that ARE solid colored.


Yeah? I thought that because the sire and the dam was particolored, they will only have particolor puppies. I will see around 3 weeks! Anyway, i like black/white particolor, with full ticking! Now that my deposit is made (and i won't change again, it's "ok" to loose 150$, but 400$ more...), i'm very excited about the upcoming puppies! I will fully experience the raising of the puppies in pictures. My new breeder isn't avaricious about pictures; i will see plenty pictures of my new puppy! The puppies of my last breeder have almost 7 weeks now and i don't have ANY pictures yet... Even if he told me for the last 4 weeks he would take pictures and send it to me or put on his website.



> I am glad you are happy, but sorry you have to wait so long.


It's difficult, because i am so thrilled to finally welcome home my first dog! But, i have to be patient! It's for the good!



> It's hard but I think you made the right choice.


I hope so!



> July is right around the corner!!!


That is what i keep telling myself! It gives me more time to buy what i need anyway! I already have a lot of things, most toys, but i have to buy the crate, the bowls, etc. It gives me more time to enjoy the process. With my last breeder, i had so many doubts... 



> You could always send your breeder an email saying why you changed your mind (no registration on the puppies, he quoted you one price and then said you had to pay more) so it's listed out in writing and you don't get flustered.


I think i will do that. I didn't think about that. I can't change my mind anymore : like i said, if i change my breeder again, i will loose 550$ in total! No way! I'm not rich! Anyway, i verified everything with my new breeder (now i'm well informed, thanks to you guys!), and i'm feeling very comfortable with her. So, yeah, it's a good idea to write to my last breeder, because i will have something writing, a trace, not just words... Words he can change, and i won't have proof of what he said...


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am so happy that you decided to research other breeders. Sounds like the Parti breeder is doing everything you want. I have a Black Abstract from a client of mine. No health testing or anything- I just groom the parents BUT I feel in love with her not the 1st time seeing her, not the 2nd or even 3rd, but when she was brought in with her Dam to be groomed. The pup was now 4 months old & never groomed. I groomed her for an on line grooming competition & she was a champ in the groom shop. So, after just grooming her 1x & how great she was I asked if I could keep her. She is now 1 of my grooming competition dogs & she is rock solid on the grooming table, great for obedience & is really good in rally. Not every dog comes from the best "breeders". Sometimes it is what we make of them. She has passed her PRA/PRcd exam & passed a prelim LP.
Congrats! on your pup to be & post lots of photo's. Can't wait for you to start "puppy class" you will have a great time I hope.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> Not every dog comes from the best "breeders".


It is so true! Like with the rescue dogs!



> Congrats! on your pup to be & post lots of photo's. Can't wait for you to start "puppy class" you will have a great time I hope.


I will post a lot of photos! Can't wait for the litter to be born!!! We have 2 "schools" for dogs here. The next month, i will visit them to take information and i will decide which school i'll take with my puppy! Maybe both!!!  Taking obedience classes with your dog seems to be so fun!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Congrats on finding a breeder you're more comfortable with. Oh, and the Partis are very special, of course! I wasn't too wild about Sugar's ticking at first, but it has come to grow on me. 

--Q


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Really? Ah! That is what i find the most adorable on parti! The ticking! Your dog is so beautiful Quossum! I would like to have one like Sugarfoot!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

As the ticking came in, my husband says we should have named him Pepperfoot! :aetsch::aetsch::aetsch: :laugh:


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## tcy1971 (Apr 25, 2012)

*sorry!*

So sorry for all your troubles in trying to get your puppy. My advice would be to follow your heart, your instincts in the situation and go with that. My Standard does not have papers--they mean nothing to me. He is a member of our family and only meant to be a companion. 
Consider whether or not you really need the registration papers and if you can trust the breeder that the puppy is healthy. Also inquire if you could get a cheaper price because the puppy isn't registered. Consider all the pros and cons of your situation.
If you still get bad vibes, maybe you should consider traveling a distance to purchase a puppy. 
that's my two cents.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

> As the ticking came in, my husband says we should have named him Pepperfoot!


Lol!

tcy1971 : Thanks for your comment. I already made my choice, since i didn't trust my first breeder. It was not just about the papers, other things bothered me too. But, yeah, the most important thing was the papers. So, i chose another breeder, which i fully trust! I follow my guts, instead of my heart. If i was choosing my heart, i would always have doubt. I wanted a really good buying experience too, and i think i will with my new breeder. The puppies will born in 2-3 weeks! Can't wait to see them!!!


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## tcy1971 (Apr 25, 2012)

yes, after I posted I saw that you had found another breeder. Congrats and good luck! very exciting.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

Wow. I send a email to my first breeder last Friday afternoon, and until now, he didn't even contact me back. It was a kind email, not a frustrating message. For me, it says that he don't even care!!!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Why should he care? He got 150 bucks out of you and doesnt have to pay it back and still gets to sell the puppy. He's a schmuck. I am glad you have a new puppy to look forward to.


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

With everything i saw from him, i'm very happy that i stand and change my breeder!!!

Yeah, he made 150$, plus he may sell the puppy i wanted full price, instead of selling him to me for a special 1500$ price...

Glad i change!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What was his asking price for the red puppy in the first place??


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

In the beginning, 1000$ for the puppy, no matter what the color. 3 weeks ago, it was 1000$ for an apricot, 1300$ for a red, 1500$ for a dark red. 

But, before (like the registered litter in january), it was 1300$ for an apricot, 1500$ for a red, 1800$ for a dark red, and the puppy had their registered papers.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Pretty silly to put a premium on the colour when is reality, when they are mature, the lightest puppies could be the darkest adults. I REALLY dislike when breeders do this!


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## Elfywara (Apr 16, 2012)

I don't understand either what is the buzz around the higher price for a "special" or "rare" color. No matter what the color, your puppy will have his own personality and health record. For me, it don't make sense when a breeder sell some puppy higher because they have a "rare" color.

I don't remember the website (it was a really good website about finding a reputable breeder for border collies, i think), but there, they say that if a breeder sells on different price the different color of the puppy, it should warn a red flag for you. In the Shepherd breeds, like Border Collies or Australian Shepherd, i saw several time a breeder selling at higher price a puppy because he is "red merle", and since a "normal merle" is already a "special color", so is the red merle, it's more "special", because it's "rare"!!! Non sense...

But, considering the market, it's difficult to find a breeder that don't have any red flag. That is what i came to realize, when i was searching for my puppy.


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