# Breeder is changing the rules.



## flightsoffancy

I am so upset that I hope I can coherently type this.....
Ok. After an exhausting search for my perfect poodle I actually found a local breeder that would sell me a female from color and confirmation breeding. Just what I was looking for. So I placed my deposit when the baby was 1 week old. She stated she would send me weekly updates with pictures. So far only 1. But people get busy so I let it go. Now we are getting close....the puppy is 6 weeks old and the breeder contacts me saying that she would like me to breed this female and she has the perfect male, her half brother. Would I please take them both. I thanked her for the offer, but no thank you. I had not intended to breed her at all and def not to her half brother!! Then she says that she wants a puppy from her, she is so fantastic maybe she should keep her. I just about die! So I say that if she passes health screening that I would consider it. She then says that I will need to pay a breeder price for the puppy. ACK! I asked if she could hold papers and at the time we decide if she is breeder quality I will buy papers or she can have a pick of litter in lue of papers. She agrees. We had also agreed that she would keep the puppy until after Christmas because I am a groomer and will be very busy. I also have a litter of Great Pyrenees/LGDs and I want all of them gone before I bring a new puppy home. She had no issues with this, but NOW she wants me to come first week of Dec and pay in full for breeding rights.
HELP me understand what the heck is going on here. Why would she change at the last minute and pressure me like this?


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## CT Girl

It sounds like you don't have a contract with this breeder otherwise she would not be able to change terms midstream. I am not a breeder and this is my rather uninformed opinion but a quality breeder would not breed a sister to her half brother unless they were the highest calibre of dog with no genetic defects. I wonder what the COI is on her dogs? I would not change the agreed on price or the conditions of the sale. If she wants to do so refuse and ask for your deposit back. She is acting in bad faith. There are other puppies and other reputable breeder with contracts that they will live up to.


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## outwest

As far as breeding to brothers, half brother etc., there are a lot of people who don't give a hoot about COI, some on this forum. They think it doesn't matter at all. I think it does, but many breeders inbreed on purpose. That doesn't mean she is a lousy breeder, just one with different thoughts on the important of inbreeding.

It sounds like she thinks the puppy is really nice and is upset she agreed to sell her as a pet. It is hard to put a deposit down on an unborn puppy. The breeders don't know what quality the puppies will be until near 7 weeks old (which she is). Now, she is having second thoughts. She would probably be just as happy giving you your money back and keeping her or selling her for more money to someone else. 

Maybe you should back out. She has you by the heart strings and that puts her in power. Don't let her do it unless you are comfortable with her new terms. There are other puppies, honestly there are.


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## flightsoffancy

You are both making excellent points. 
I don't have a contract, but I have our emails and the receipt for my deposit with all the info on it. Not sure but, I think that might stand up. This conversation was by phone. 
I am hoping she is a nice puppy and that we can work it out. Quality ice white female toys are not a dime a dozen around here and I looked for a very long time. Most breeders will not sell females at all. I have been so excited and now she is kinda taking the wind out of my sails. I now feel like I need to run up there and get her asap! ACK!:dontknow:


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## flightsoffancy

I need to send her an email. Any suggestions on what to say?:afraid:


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## Quossum

Honestly? I would back out of this deal. BUT, that's easy for me to say when my heartstrings are not firmly attached to a beautiful and much-sought-after puppy. The thing is, you will be "connected" to this breeder for some time with these new terms, and it doesn't sound like you're totally on board with her philosophies. This way lies madness.

If you really, really *cannot* leave this deal and resume your search, then I would say that in your next convo with the breeder you need to get some specific, written terms governing the puppy, its papers, and possible breeding--when, only under X conditions (name the health tests that must be passed!), and clear discussion of any puppy-back deals.

Think of it...if this breeder is changing the rules of the game now, she could do it again and again as "your" puppy ages. You could end up living under a constant pall of stress concerning your dream puppy. Can you do that?

Tough decision...but best of luck to you in whatever direction you choose to go.

--Q


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## minipoodlelover

"It sounds like she thinks the puppy is really nice and is upset she agreed to sell her as a pet. "

I had the exact same impression as outwest. You're in a tough situation, because you'll be in a relationship with this breeder and if you're finding it difficult now, it probably won't get any easier.


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## minipoodlelover

Sorry!


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## CT Girl

If you want to proceed I don't think I would send her an email. I would see her in person and bring a copy of your email correspondence. Talk it out and see if you can reach a compromise. I would at this point draw up a contract that you both sign so as Quossom warns she can not change her terms again. I really feel for you. I know how excited I was preparing for Swizzle. You sound like you really want this puppy; I hope it works out for you.


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## flightsoffancy

I sent her an email last night. I asked her to allow me to have her under our original agreement with a pet contract. I would come get her as soon as she was 8 weeks. Then if she passes genetic testing and any other standard health tests (Patella etc) I would gladly pay the breeder price for her. I even put a stipulation that it all had to be done by the time she was 5 months old or she would be spayed!
She responded saying that this puppy was show quality. (OH REALLY! at 6 weeks! from a breeder who does not show!!) Breeder stated she would not be sold with out breeder contract and price. End of story!
So I have asked for her pedigree which I haven't asked for because I didn't care. She was only going to be my best buddy. I also asked for her COI rating. If she is really proud of this puppy I will get it and if she is only trying to squeeze more money out of me, her true colors will show. However, I think they already have. I seem to be trying to protect her bloodline and the poodle more than she is. She seems to just be after my money.
So I gave her a non-refundable deposit that I guess she thinks she will get to keep? ACK!! :argh:
WHY does this have to be so darn hard! Any recommendations on White Toy Breeders?


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## 3dogs

I am sorry you are going through this. It is a learning curve. 1. I don't think you should pay a "breeder" price since you really don't know the quality of the pup or the health testing. 2. she wants the breeding done & get a puppy out of the deal- this is NOT your breeding but hers, you are really only a "host/foster" family until the "breeding" is done. 3. WHO is going to pay for all the health tests, showing whether it be in the AKC or UKC conformation ring, obedience, rally etc... Is this going to be HER cost or YOUR cost??? These are things to think about. If you don't want to be a person who "breeds" then you should walk away NOW & save yourself some heartache since you will be attached to this "breeder" for a few years. You put in a Deposit for "PET" & that is what you should be getting. If the Poodle turns out to be one that the "breeder" would like to use in her program then you need to set NEW Terms in WRITTING. Not a conversation but in writting. I am pulling for you & so sorry you are going through this. Some people just suck & pull on the heart strings of buyers.


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## PaddleAddict

This sounds like a giant mess at best and a possible scam/shake down at worst. If it were me, I would walk away from this deal and request my deposit back. And if she refuses, sue in small claims for the deposit back (using the emails to show that she is the one backing out on the original agreement which was a pet puppy for a pet price).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree 100% with Paddle Addict. This is bad news just waiting to happen!


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## Marciemae

I've been reading this thread and I can just imagine how hurt and frustrated you must be! I'm getting down right cranky in my old age so it's good that the breeder isn't dealing with me, lol!

I'm certainly not an attorney or anything even close to that field of study....but....I've heard about things such as an "implied contract". I'm guessing that your original emails would be considered as such. It would be worth it to me to see an attorney about your situation. Sometimes they don't charge for the initial visit. Being the stubborn old woman that I have come to be, I'd rather pay an attorney than to let that breeder get a cent out of me, lol!


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## MamaTiff

I feel for you, really, but if I were you I would back out and demand the deposit back. If she won't give it back contact a lawyer. You never know, maybe just the threat of contacting your lawyer would be enough? Please keep us updated. This makes me mad. She is being downright deceitful. Looks like Christmas is coming up and everyone could use the extra $$$. Don't let it be at your expense!


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## Chagall's mom

I am so sorry you find yourself in this untenable situation! You may want to post a separate thread, "Looking for white toy breeder..." to bring more members along to help you find the poodle of your dreams. Reputable breeders are out there, and your dream WILL come true! It just_ stinks_ that you've been so misled and mistreated! Best of luck going forward. :clover:


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## zyrcona

flightsoffancy said:


> She responded saying that this puppy was show quality. (OH REALLY! at 6 weeks! from a breeder who does not show!!) Breeder stated she would not be sold with out breeder contract and price. End of story!


How unpleasant for you. :-( I hope this gets sorted out soon.

Becoming a breeder takes a lot of research that needs to begin before you get your first breeding dog. It is hard work, things can go wrong, and if you do it, it has to be because you want to do it. I would not enter into a foster breeding arrangement with a breeder unless you know and trust them and agree with their breeding goals. FYI, usually, foster breeding arrangements allow the new owner to have the dog as a pet for free, while the breeder pays for all tests and is responsible for ensuring homes are found for the puppies. When the breeder has had the required number of litters from the dog, the dog is signed over to the owner and is spayed/neutered.

A half sibling mating is way too close in this day and age when there is clear scientific evidence of inbreeding depression. I don't think a good breeder would go any closer than a first cousin mating without a very good reason.

If you put a deposit on a pet dog for an agreed price, you have a number of options:

You can ask for the dog at the price agreed. If this is not possible you can:

Ask for a refund of the deposit -- it is the breeder who has reneged on your contract, not you. It does not matter that the contract was not written down. A verbal agreement can count as a contract.

Ask for an equivalent dog at an agreed later date. This would allow the breeder to keep the puppy and give you another when one becomes available.

If the breeder will not agree to one of these terms, you can take her to a small claims court to get your deposit back.


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## Keithsomething

I personally like half sibling matings >.>
Especially if one really likes a particular line, why not double up on it? Breeding is a CRAPSHOOT and you can get sickly dogs from total outcrosses (one of the sickest dogs I've seen had a COI of 5%...so take COI's with a grain of salt...) some people don't like the idea of linebreeding...I say meh don't buy the dog or be involved with the breeder if you don't like their practices
wee bit of a tangent over <.<
_____

If this were me I'd tell the byb to step off and I'd demand my deposit back, small claims court is an option... but you have to keep in mind that you may lose and that may end up dragging out a process that will have you paying out more money into a situation you could easily walk away from

What annoys me about breeders like this is they have no one evaluate their litters to tell them what is show quality and what isn't...again if this were me I'd ask to know who she brought in to evaluate the litter...and why they didn't wait until 8wks. One can only see the faults of their dogs so far, it always takes an outside pair of eyes to get a REAL evaluation...

On a side note...I've heard of breeders that if they have a litter and they get an AMAZING litter (toys usually only have a few puppies, say all of them are show prospects. In standards it's more like I have my deposit down for a male and there were 2 males I wanted a pet but they both ended up being show prospects...that kinda thing XD) they will refund the deposit or bounce the deposit onto the next litter because they want to place their show dogs into show homes...why have a dog that could carry on their line be spayed or neutered?

Lol...SO if this is a reputable breeder that shows and is involved with the breed, I'd see no problem with them asking for a breeding back or for you to show it...or to just not sell you the dog (with a return of your deposit that is)...but if its the kind of breeder I'm thinking of with uncouth ways and one that does NOTHING with their dogs...RUN AWAY!!


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## flightsoffancy

*Update*

ACK! I just changed my Avatar...so I am bracing for the worst!

ME last night: I was trying to make it work with the breeder contract even tho I never agreed to breed her
_Although this is not what I planned for, I would be happy to come get her the week after Dec 3. I would much rather have her here and start her grooming and potty training. However, I will only have the money for her pet contract at this time. If it's OK with you, we can sign a pet contract and then I can pay you the additional money for her breeder contract before she is 5 months old.You hold her AKC papers until the breeder contract is signed. Honestly it will be by the end of January, but by 5 months is how I have herd other breeders do this type of contract. _

BREEDER: She replied in a very formal and everything if just peachy tone.
_"To answer your letter you sent this morning- I thought may be you would like to pick her up earlier than you first said. I will have no problem keeping her until the end of December if that is what you want. I can not let her leave until she is paid for. Right now due to her skin color and her attitude she is really showing show quality potential. She is very active and my husband and daughter plays with her ever day so she has adjusted well and uses the pee pad 100% of the time. She is eating good and I am just very pleased with the way she is coming along. I will have to leave the contract as it is and will require that she is paid in full before she leaves us. I do hope this is satisfactory with you"_

My question is WHAT CONTRACT? I have not seen a contract, and NEVER agreed to breeding her!!!! ARG!!:deal:

I replied 
_Thank you for the pictures. You sent those already. I would love to see current ones.
I was under the impression she was being offered as pet, but that has changed and now what your telling me is that she will only be sold with breeding rights? Ok. Then please send me a copy of her pedigree and her COI rating?
I am not sure what has changed on your end, but if you are having regrets about selling this puppy please just refund my deposit. It will break my heart!!! _


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## minipoodlelover

It sounds as though you are handling a difficult situation very well. I feel for you, because you're only looking for a pet to love, and it does sound like she's trying to squeeze more money from you.


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## SarainPA

My heart goes out to you...but I agree with most of the people so far... please walk away from this deal. There are lovely white pups other places. If you think you are feeling heartbroken right now - I fear it will be much worse in 6 or 8 months. Unless she is going to pay for all of the health testing (has it been done on the sire/dam???) and for the stud fee and any show fees... you will be out more money then you can ever make back - plus I think she will keep changing things as time goes on.
Who evaluated this pup for her? You said she doesn't have any show experience, right? is she even aware what make a pup show quality?
I hope you can find peace with your decision...whatever it may be!


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## spoospirit

_My personal opinion....RUN AWAY FROM THIS!!

There is something seriously wrong with how this thing is going down. My gut feeling is that she is trying to play you and use you to keep her line going.

I have never heard of a good breeder using such practices. When our litter is evaluated, show puppy prospects will go to experienced show homes or a novice who is willing to be mentored throughout their showing and breeding experience. This is set up before the puppies are even born. We have three show home requests for our next litter. We don't expect to have three show puppy prospects, but we will place any show quality puppy with the person at the top of the list for show pups. Every puppy is placed with its new family according to its personality and the families needs. Good matches are essential. NO DEPOSITS are accepted until we have matched a puppy with its new family and a clear contract is signed by them and by us. That is why we don't promise any puppy to anyone until the evaluation is done at 8 weeks and we know what we have and who to match them up with.

To hear that a breeder is trying to force what she considers a show quality pup (without an evaluation?) onto a person who did not request a show pup is pretty disturbing. I don't think this breeder has a clue about good practices as a breeder, and you are the victim! Something that I am really sorry about as far as you are concerned. 

Breeding and showing is NOT for the faint of heart. You have to love it and love it a lot. There is a lot of work, expenses, politics and things that can go wrong involved. You DO NOT make money doing this. It cost more money to breed and show than you can imagine. It is something that you have to do because you love the breed and want to help further the breed. If this was not your choice to begin with, then your heart is not there and being pushed into it is a recipe for disaster.

I feel strongly that you should not get involved with this breeder. I can only see a lot of stress and heartache in the future with this match!

Go for a refund since she is not able to provide you with the pet you put your deposit down for. Don't let her bully you into making a 'deal' with her to purchase this puppy from her as a show/breeding puppy. Take your money and spend it on a puppy from a responsible breeder that you can trust.

I know that this has to be very painful for you, but I can't see how you will be happy in this relationship. You will never feel that the puppy is really yours._


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## vtomblin

You are looking at a puppy from a lady who doesn't show! Are the parents champions? If not why would you accept her opinion that it is show pup? (which you are questioning. ) if you pay a breeder/ show price she is yours period. No litter back. If you pay pet you could offer 2nd pick back. 1st pick is yours. Or she should give the pup to you for free with the whole litter back. That's how most things go in the show world.

What happens at 5 months? Most tests and good practice say to wait until closer to 2 years for good results and breeding. Show worthiness is decided by 6+ months. But breeding material is much later. She is trying to make her seem more valuable by saying show quality. It's a gimmick for money. Does she plan on showing her? If not show quality means nothing. Having a stipulation of the stud you must use is just too much. Your name will be going on the pups too. You need to be confident in what you produce. You really need to see her contract before going any further. It could have all sorts of crazy stuff in it. 

I agree with the rest. I don't like where you are going with this breeder. I suggest getting out of this too. We can help you too! Good luck. I know how terrible this is.


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## lavillerose

No one can feasibly tell whether a 6 week old puppy is show/breeding quality, and be able to match it with a mate (especially a half sibling!). Even at 8 weeks, when reputable breeders evaluate their puppies, its touch and go. And health testing is a life long process. You can't tell if knees, elbows and hips are good until the bones have fully developed, and then see how they continue to wear with age.

You know, I have a pretty good relationship with my breeder. I was very clear about wanting a pet, not a show prospect. I let the breeder choose, since I wasn't specific about sex or color (my breeder only does black anyway). I put a deposit down when she was born, and paid in full when I picked up at ten weeks.

It was very close between my dog and another female at evaluation which one my breeder wanted to keep for herself, and I was actually surprised to get my dog, since when I first met the puppies at 5 weeks old, I thought the one that became mine had the better form and especially the showy attitude. But my breeder chose the other, and I took my dog home.

Three months later, she and another (very well known and respected) breeder came to visit and asked me out-of-the-blue if I wanted to show her. Cue my confusion. I bought the dog on a restricted registration terms as a pet. I had already scheduled her spay at this point. And suddenly she's a potential show dog? I knew she was a good dog, but I still didn't have time with my own grooming business to show this dog, or the drive to. My breeder became somewhat insistent about it though. I think what drove her to it was that one of the males from the litter had been sold as a show prospect to people who didn't have show experience in the breed, and ultimately their deal fell through. But she still had her own pick, who is doing well in the ring. One show/breeding quality dog in a litter of five is great. Two is surprising. Three? Unlikely. I think my breeder was just sad one of the show prospects didn't work out.

I essentially had to put my foot down. I have bred and shown animals before (livestock), and I regularly attend dog shows as a groomer. I know it's fun. I just don't have room for it in my life. It might have upset my breeder, but ultimately, she's my dog.

Unless you sign a contract to co-own, when you buy a dog, it's yours.


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## Fluffyspoos

I'd just say "My deposit was for a pet toy poodle not a breeder, and until I sign, or even see a contract, that deposit is STILL for a pet, if you would like to keep her for breeding/show, then I demand that my deposit be refunded, if you don't want to commit to that, then give her to me for what was initially discussed - pet, for pet price."


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## soon2bmommi

I would share with her all of the information you are now learning from this forum from ethical show breeders.Tell her you do not feel comfortable breeding a dog unless you show and finish her. Seeing that you did not expect a show dog whose exspense should it be? Ask her who evaluated the litter and determined her to be show quality? What health testing has she done on her lines? Are any of the parents champions? I bet after you drill her it will shake her up a bit LOL..Honestly I would demand my deposit back.. Clarion in california breeds gorgeous toys and she is a very ethical breeder. Be sure you find a breeder who is a member of the pca or at least participates in some sort of conformation or agility activity so that you know they truly care about the breed and this just isnt some sort of money making venture for them.Good luck I hope everything works out..


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## Rowan

Based on what I've read in this thread, I wouldn't do business with this breeder. Period. Full stop. In fact, I'd already have contacted my attorney to see about getting my deposit back. I'm so angry on your behalf! :at-wits-end:

You put a deposit down on a puppy with no intention of, a) breeding, b) showing, or c) entering into a co-ownership with the breeder. The breeder said NOTHING about a) showing, b) breeding, or c) co-ownership of said puppy. She agreed to sell you a _companion _poodle, for all intents and purposes. 

IMHO, she's changing the rules of the game and is hoping you're naive/emotionally invested enough to fall for it. All of a sudden this puppy is show material and she wants to breed her...to her half brother??? How can she tell at this young age? So...WTFO? 

You're like a wide receiver standing in the end zone waiting for the ball only to discover that the QB is running another play. Not cool. 

As others have said, it's easy for me to say "run" because I'm not emotionally invested in this deal. I'm not attached to this adorable little puppy. I feel really bad for you because my gut tells me this woman is taking you for a ride and this puppy is essentially collateral damage. 

My advice? If you really want the pup, take off the gloves and play hard ball. Tell her flat out that you put a deposit on a puppy and you expect delivery of said puppy at the price agreed upon. Arrange to pay off and pick her up--_with a written contract_ outlining your agreement--ASAP. Tell her if she fails to deliver said puppy under these conditions, that you'll be in contact with your attorney. Be sure to spell out that you have records of all e-mail correspondence, check receipts (or however you paid the deposit) and phone conversations. I'm not sure you have a (legal) leg to stand on, but you've got nothing to lose by calling her bluff. 

It wouldn't hurt to add that you fully intend to let others know how she conducts business (perhaps even mention this forum that's frequented by lots of prospective puppy buyers). She needs to attend "Breeder Ethics 101."  

Best of luck and keep us posted! (P.S. *Schnauzerpoodle *has thoroughly researched numerous toy breeders and I'm sure she'd be willing to share her list!)


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## flightsoffancy

Fluffyspoos said:


> I'd just say "My deposit was for a pet toy poodle not a breeder, and until I sign, or even see a contract, that deposit is STILL for a pet, if you would like to keep her for breeding/show, then I demand that my deposit be refunded, if you don't want to commit to that, then give her to me for what was initially discussed - pet, for pet price."



PERFECT!! sometimes I get so angry that I can not find the right words. That is just perfect!!

THANK YOU!!! EVERYONE!!! You have all been so helpful!!! and being able to hash this out with a sympathetic ear is evaluable! I swear my husband is so tired of the Poodle talk. (What are we going to name her. Pictures of how I want to groom her...Of course I know, but I have to talk about it like I am 13 years old. LOL!!) And then this! He just wants me to walk away from Poodles for good, but ALL OF YOU are proof that their are good people out there in the Poodle world...we just haven't met you yet!


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## PaddleAddict

Please don't walk away from poodles, but you should find a decent breeder, first and foremost someone who shows their dogs, belongs to poodle clubs and is dedicated to bettering the breed--not someone who is just trying to line their pockets with $$$.


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## Poodle Lover

Please don't give up on poodles, they are truly a wonderful breed. Unfortunately the breeder that you were dealing with wasn't what we call a greeder, not a breeder.  I've looked on the poodle club of america's website and here's a name of a breeder who breed minis and toys. If she doesn't have puppies, she will direct you to someone who does. 
[email protected]

Best of luck.


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## cookieface

I'm so sorry you're having such a heartbreaking time finding a poodle. I had a some difficulty getting Katie, but now, she's the love of my life. The right poo is out there, just keep looking. The experience and knowledge available here was invaluable in my search.


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## Quossum

There are some crazy bad apples in every breed...but poodles--and other "popular" breeds--are particularly susceptible.

Keep us posted on this story!

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Please don't walk away from the breed. You will never be sorry once you find the right breeder. The rewards are endless.


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## neVar

I would walk away- and yes i'd be willing to loose my deposit 9notthat you should) to get out of this. If you think she's all over the place now- think of how she will be down the road. 

a few thoughts on this whole process 
1- breeders shouldn't be picking puppies at 1 week of age etc. Most good breeders do not gaurentee 'you get this pup"until at 8 weeks when structure and temperament can be seen
2-contracts should be seen before deposits are given. although they are usually not signed at the time of deposit- they are signed when a puppy is chosen and finalpayment is given with most breeders
3-deposits put you on the list for the type of puppy you are waiting for (IE girl, pet) if that puppy ends up not available for you deposit should be refunded or put towards the next litter- THIS should be said how it works before you put a deposit down. 


now that said too- breeders take requests in (say girl, red) and sometimes that dog doesn't come available. Say i have a litter and i have one female- im planning to keep a puppy from the litter, and i have one person on my list who requires a female, and the rest of my list doesn't care male or female. IF that female ends up being pick ofthe litter, and i decide to keep the puppy i may approach that one person on the list who wants a girl with a couple options 
1-That unfortunately i don't have a female available for them- that the pick ofthe litter is the only girl 
2-That i wish to keep the girl for myself-however would they be interested ina co-own (OR some breeders call this 'fostering') Where the dog stays intact, i show it, and get one litter from it at that time it's spayed and papers given fully in their name. SAME PRICE at no time should this be a 'sell up'

or 3- what a lot of breeders do? Feel horrible there's only one girl- place it on the pet contract and either keep no puppy from this litter or another pup. 


Seriously- as much as it's difficult- i would walk away- another puppy willcome along


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Legally, you are entitled to your deposit back. If someone does not have what you put a deposit on, then the money is to be refunded. If I have all females in a litter, the people who wanted males who do not wish you change gender are legally entitled to a full refund. It is not their fault things happened as they did. You put a deposit on a pet. If the breeder is now claiming the puppy must be in a breeding home, well, she does not have what you requested, so your money is to be refunded, plain and simple. If I put a deposit on a 2012 red Grand Prix and all the dealer could find for me is a 2011 blue Grand Prix I have the choice to take it or leave it. If I decide to leave it, then I am entitled to and the dealer is obligated to refunding my money in whole.


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## PaddleAddict

I am not a lawyer, but I think it would be relatively simple to get your deposit back. If she won't return it, threaten legal action, and if that doesn't do it, just file in small claims court. You don't need a lawyer and it sounds as if you will win. 

I think she will not want to lose your money so she will keep bartering with you and playing on your emotions until you agree to something you are not really comfortable with. I fear that you are already so attached to this puppy that you will let her manipulate you. I hope you have enough strength to both walk away and demand your deposit back (and fight for it if necessary). 

I also hope through reading these posts that you are starting to realize that her practices are far and away NOT normal and no reputable breeder would ever do something like this to a puppy buyer.


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## flightsoffancy

Alright!! With all of your support behind me I have filed a dispute to get my deposit back! I will keep you posted.


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## plumcrazy

Wishing you best of luck for a satisfactory outcome!! Keep us posted!


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## spoospirit

_Rooting for you! Stay strong!_


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## minipoodlelover

Good for you! I really believe you are doing the right thing. Not only are you helping yourself, but by putting this 'breeder' on notice that her practices are unacceptable, you will be helping future potential puppy buyers.


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## flightsoffancy

Well, Momma always said nothing bites like a cornered rat! OUCH! its gettin ugly!! :argh:


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## tintlet

I would guess this "breeder" does this all the time. easy way to get more $$$ from someone.


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## CT Girl

I don't know if this is the same breeder you asked about on a different thread but I think this may be a blessing in disguise. I have no doubt you would win in small claims court as she has broached your verbal contract and changed her terms. You may have to pay more (or not - I don't know her prices) but it will be well worth it to get a health tested puppy from a quality breeder. I am sorry to hear it is getting ugly what a shame she has turned what should be a fun time gettin a puppy into a nasty exchange.


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## flightsoffancy

CT Girl said:


> I don't know if this is the same breeder you asked about on a different thread but I think this may be a blessing in disguise. I have no doubt you would win in small claims court as she has broached your verbal contract and changed her terms. You may have to pay more (or not - I don't know her prices) but it will be well worth it to get a health tested puppy from a quality breeder. I am sorry to hear it is getting ugly what a shame she has turned what should be a fun time gettin a puppy into a nasty exchange.


Yes it is. She is getting really nasty and the mud is flinging, from her side. I will not let her ugly behavior dictate who I am! I am so disappointed and sad that we couldn't work this out in a more civilized way. Its really her fault for not having a contract when I gave the deposit stating what she expected, but I also know better. I should have demanded a contract!! She could have parleyed this experience into a nice business for herself. After my clients see my puppy at the grooming shop, don't you know some are a going to want one. I could have easily and happily referred her. 
A blessing in disguise for sure! It just doesn't feel like a victory.


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## flightsoffancy

tintlet said:


> I would guess this "breeder" does this all the time. easy way to get more $$$ from someone.


She is getting very crafty and all of a sudden has plenty of formality in her emails. She has asked me to resolve my claim with paypal before I get my deposit refund. I am sure she knows that once I resolve it, I have no recourse. YUP! She's done this before.


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## CT Girl

Well you are on to her now. You should have no trouble getting your money back since you paid with PayPal. I think you are right - she has done this before asking you to resolve your claim before you get your refund. That does not make any sense unless she is trying to not return your deposit. I can't think of any legitimate reason why anyone would ask this.


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## flightsoffancy

Is a webpage a binding contract?? She keeps saying "It's on my web page and I'm sending Paypal a copy of it." Regarding her "no refund" policy. I thought that was if I changed my mind. She has now stated that she will not do business with me under any circumstance, but will fight the paypal claim. OMG! I feel like she is talking in circles, and now I see she has been the entire time. :banghead:


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## roulette

Only hearsay, but I understand that PayPal almost ALWAYS sides with the buyer. Don't let her get you flustered. She can't assume you read anything on her website, so I don't believe that is any defense. You may or may not get your deposit back, but I would try everything at my disposal.


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## CT Girl

Get a screen capture and print out the web page that says she charges 3% extra for Paypal. She can offer a cash discount but under Paypal rules she is not allowed to pass along the Paypal fee. She can lose the ability to use Paypal if they find out about this. You have emails from her stating the terms - that you want a pet quality puppy and agree to pay a certain fee. Stating the deposit is non-refundable is in my opinion non-enforceable. For example, you put down a $100 deposit for a puppy that will cost $1,000. She decides she would rather have $10,000 for the puppy. That is basically what happened to you. She changed the terms not you. You either never had a contract - there is no meeting of the minds or you entered into a verbal contract for a pet quality puppy which was to be a certain price. You have proof of your verbal contract with your email exchange. I would be very surprised if you did not get your deposit back.


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## minipoodlelover

Her true colors are showing loud and clearly. Aren't you glad you aren't going to be in the breeding business with her? 

She can carry on all she wants, but you don't have a binding contract with her. You should win easily in small claims court and furthermore, you don't have to travel to a different state to file. 

But hopefully paypal will come through for you. CT Girl gave you an excellent suggestion.

And you will now have the opportunity to selectively choose a reputable breeder who puts dogs before dollar signs. Believe me when I say the difference in quality of puppies from a good breeder v. BYB or commercial breeder is bigger than you might think.


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## FunkyPuppy

Holy cow, I'm watching this thread breathlessly! At the risk of insulting all of the gorgeous female poodles on the board, this 'breeder' sounds like a real b*tch!


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## PaddleAddict

Curious if the OP has gotten any resolution with this...


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## Rowan

flightsoffancy said:


> Is a webpage a binding contract?? She keeps saying "It's on my web page and I'm sending Paypal a copy of it." Regarding her "no refund" policy. I thought that was if I changed my mind. She has now stated that she will not do business with me under any circumstance, but will fight the paypal claim. OMG! I feel like she is talking in circles, and now I see she has been the entire time. :banghead:


She doesn't have a leg to stand on, IMHO. She's not refunding you the price of a dog because you're flippant and changed your mind. You are asking for a deposit back because she reneged on an agreement. Don't let her bully you--stand your ground. Tell her you won't do business with her under any circumstances because she's dishonest and has zero integrity. 

A webpage is not a binding contract. If I have time tomorrow, I'll run this by one of the pro's in my office. 

Don't remove the PayPal dispute either. And post her information loud and clear wherever and whenever you can once this is settled. Then she can Google herself and get an earful. 

This woman is beyond shameful and is a con artist. Screencap everything you can and document every conversation in case you need to consult an attorney.

These are the facts: you put a deposit down on a poodle puppy at an agreed upon price. She later tried to change the terms of your agreement and alter the price. You said "no deal," and she's trying to cry foul. Do you have the original agreement in an e-mail (ie., deposit amount, final price, etc.)? If so, I don't think you have anything to worry about!


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## FunkyPuppy

I'm crossing my fingers she didn't bully you into buying the puppy! You've received lots of excellent advice here, hope you dug your heels into the ground and refused to get dragged in.


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## flightsoffancy

We are currently in a dispute claim with Paypal over my deposit. She has now stated that she will not do business with me under any circumstances. HA! People can be so predictable sometimes it's almost laughable. This was only after my claim to paypal "Seller has continually tried to change agreement and has not been consistent in her representation which leads me to doubt her credibility. I do not feel safe about continuing resolution process. I want my deposit refunded in whole and no more contact with this Seller. I have emails, texts and witnesses to phone conversations to back up my dispute."

I will post more when I hear from Paypal, but at this point the deal is soured and we will obviously not be getting a puppy from this breeder. She has until Dec 8 to dispute. My guess is that she will drag it out. 

On a happier note..... I have been contacted by some very nice AKC breeders of Merit that have been very helpful and are trying to help me find the puppy of my dreams!


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## poodlesplease

Sounds like it will all work out. I am sorry you had such a rough time, but hopefully you will have a new puppy in mind soon! I can't wait to hear about it!  My thoughts are with you!


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## Pudel-Fan

I'm sorry that such a fun and exciting adventure has been turned into a stressful experience for you. If you paid with a credit card through paypal, don't forget your credit card company will back you on this. You might want to call and talk to them now and let them know that there is a paypal dispute going on and get things set in motion for a charge back to be credited to your card. Good luck and may Santa give you the name of good breeder who has your future puppy waiting.


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## 3dogs

flightsoffancy- sounds like you are doing everything correctly. I am sure this person has done this before & gotten away with it. I wonder if this person can be reported to the Better Business or I think there is another webpage that monitors poor business practices but I cannot remember the name. I guess you won't be getting on her "guestbook" page.


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## flightsoffancy

3dogs said:


> flightsoffancy- sounds like you are doing everything correctly. I am sure this person has done this before & gotten away with it. I wonder if this person can be reported to the Better Business or I think there is another webpage that monitors poor business practices but I cannot remember the name. I guess you won't be getting on her "guestbook" page.


LOL! My guess is that my comments would quickly disappear!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

When you have an issue with someone who has legally wronged you or sold you something not up to par, you can post the info with anything to back it up on www.the sqeakywheel.com You pay $5 to post your dispute and then send the link to every person in your mailbox, on your FB page, EVERYWHERE!!!! And you ask all of those people to do the same. Every time the link is opened, the person the dispute is regarding gets an email letting them know another person has read it. I know of a toy breeder who sold someone I am familiar with two extremely sick puppies. The info was posted on Squeakywheel and last I looked, they had received over 11,000 emails. They have also either gone out of business or changed their kennel name.


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## outwest

Paypal has a time limit on disputes and it isn't very long (45 days? I can't quite recall). We had someone not send an item and keep giving us reasons why not, stringing us along until I finally filed a dispute, but it was too late. I learned my lesson on that one. I hope you got your dispute filed on time! You can also dispute the payment through your credit card company.


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## Dallasminis

Oh, how awful! You might want to tell her you posted this sad tale on Poodle Forum for starters! I think you should hightail it out of there! She obviously has no principles...I just don't think she can be trusted to do business with. However, I know your heart is involved. I guess it matters if you are right or left brained, at this point. I know you will do what's right for you!


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm sorry I didn't answer to Rowan's shoutout earlier. I just had the time to finish this whole thread.

If you are still looking for a white, pet quality toy poodle. I know of one top notch breeder that has one right now. Her name is Patty Stabler (Hosanna). She is in Southern California. She health tests all her breeding stock and she has a contract and wonderful health warranty. Her white girl is now the #1 Toy Poodle of the country and has been invited to Westminster (you can see Tenley at Toy Poodle #16: GCH Hosanna Danica Dancing In The Rain (call name Tenley). South Bay Kennel Club 68th All Breed Show. August 13, 2011 in Torrance, California. Owned by/Bred by Patricia Stabler. Handled by Allan Chambers. - DogBreedz - pet photography ) 

I have talked to Patty on and off for almost a year now. She is a very knowledgable and responsible breeder. She uses a handler for her show dogs and she herself stays home full time with her pack. She has a number of toys sold to Japan and those babies easily finished there. This says a lot about the quality of her dogs since, you know, the toys in Japan now rule the world! Competitions are fierce there!! 

She doesn't have a website and she doesn't ship her pups. She keeps in touch with the forever homes of her pups on Facebook. You can send her a message there or search for her number on the San Diego Poodle club website.

Right now she has a white boy that will go oversized and I think he is around 5 weeks old now. Very cute, very nice pigment. She also has a white girl but since I'm not interested girls so I don't have too much about that girl to share.

Good luck and I hope you will find your perfect pup soon.


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## CT Girl

When is the Paypal deadline? Any updates for us? Schnauzerpoodle - Tenley is a beauty. Are you considering this breeder for yourself?


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## schnauzerpoodle

CT Girl said:


> Schnauzerpoodle - Tenley is a beauty. Are you considering this breeder for yourself?



Yes! Will go visit her and her pack next week.


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## Keithsomething

Hosanna has beautiful dogs! I think they co-owned/bred a litter of puppies I was looking at for myself. Do you know anything about Bragabout schnauzerpoodle? They're in Southern California I believe, the puppy I'll be getting comes from a bragabout sire


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## CT Girl

Schnauzerpoodle I am excited for you. It will be wonderful if your long search for a puppy has finally come to fruition. I hope you will tell us all about your visit and I hope we will soon be enjoying pictures, videos and stories about your new puppy. It sounds like you are still in the decision faze but she sure sounds like a winner. 

Keith - who is the breeder of your puppy? With all that has been going on I must have missed this.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I think Bragabout is in Nevada. They have toy poodles and Brussel Griffons.

CT Girl: I'm still deciding because I prefer a silver toy but she only has a white boy, a white girl and a possibly mismark silver now. She has another silver but she's deciding if she is keeping him or not.


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## Keithsomething

Thanks SP, you're right it's Nevada not California.
They have some beautiful dogs.
Well...the details haven't been hammered out just quite yet CT Girl, but it's a friend of mine that lives in Europe :]


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## The_Duke

Paypal is a nightmare for animal sales, I think it says in the small print that it doesn't cover animal sales (will have to recheck.) Did you get your deposit back? How did you pay it? If you paid with a credit card through paypal then file a dispute with the credit card company, they will definitely be more helpful/ more likely to get your money back.

It definitely sounds like its not the first time this breeder has done this, I'm really glad you found out what she was like before you'd paid for the puppy in full as I imagine the would be no after sales support and more mindgames. 

Good luck!


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## flightsoffancy

:bounce: :dance2: :cheers2:



YAY!!! Paypal sided with my claim!! I didn't want to post and jinx it until the money was in my account. I can not thank everyone enough for the support and encouragement!!! 


I want to let everyone know that in the Paypal Rules they do not guarantee deposits. ONLY payments in full. However, they usually side with the buyer. I also think the fact that I have done quite a bit of business through them in the last 5 years helped my case. I have never had a claim against me or filed a claim.

So now I am back in the business of Poodle shopping and I also want to thank all the members that took the initiative and pm'd me breeder referrals and offered genrally great advice. 
Shout out to: :adore: Rowan, minipoodlelover, PammiPoodle, Schnauzerpoodle

I think I have one with my name on her!  I will post more when I know for sure!


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## schnauzerpoodle

Good to know that you got your $$ back!

Can't wait to hear about your new pup!


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## SarainPA

Wonderful news!!! Can't wait until you find your special friend!!!


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## MamaTiff

Yay! What a relief!!!


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## Rowan

Woot! That's excellent news.  
I can't wait to see your puppy!!!!!! :marchmellow:


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## CT Girl

In the long run I think you will be glad that this happened. You will get a quality pup from a quality breeder and you wont have the health and temperment issues that are more likely to occur from a breeder who does not health test and has questionable morals. I am thrilled to hear you prevailed. I would have been shocked if they had not backed your claim as you were so totally in the right.


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## The_Duke

Excellent news!!! Glad you got your deposit back and don't have to deal with her anymore.


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## fjm

So glad things are looking up!


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## cookieface

I'm so happy to hear things are moving in the right direction!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

YAHOO! Fabulous news.


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## 3dogs

Flightsoffancey- are you interested in a quality 1 year old, female, black very active poodle (not sure if toy or mini)? The breeder is on facebook & comes highly recommended?


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## schpeckie

Glad to hear everything worked out and you got your money back, and now you never have to deal with this woman again. I hope you find your new pup soon!


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## spoospirit

_I'm so excited for you! I can't wait to see the puppy you get and the good experience you had with the breeder!_


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## outwest

I am so happy you got your depoist back and are looking at poodles again. Please don't forget to show us you new babe! It sounds like everything is going to work out just fine.


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## phrannie

*Good for you!! I woudn't have trusted this person as far as I could toss'em...*


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## Dallasminis

It will be sooo worth the wait....


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## BorderKelpie

I'm so happy for you and I can not wait to hear that you found your new heart dog.


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