# Would using a Gentle Leader confuse my dog from his LLW training?



## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

I can't give you input about the gentle leader because I never used it myself. But I can just tell you that I commiserate with you having a dog of a similar age. Puffy isn't really a puller, but helping him to really master good walking skills up to this point has been a challenge. During his hormonal breakthrough moments of recent months, we have seen quite a few ups and downs. 

I am just wondering if your boy really gets enough exercise before the walks? One thing that has held me back at times from 'perfect leash training' is that I know that my dog just needs to exercise enough, and then his leash skills are great. This is a weird situation because you often need to exercise your dog by walking it! But if the dog is not walking well, how do you get enough exercise without reinforcing bad behavior? 

Just to share an anecdote: This morning I had both Puffy (11months spoo) and his BF Top (13 month medium) It was really hard to walk them together because Topi is not that well trained. He pulls and barks at all he sees CONSTANTLY. However, he isn't my dog so I can only control this so much; he just needs more training. Puffy does get a lot of training, but at his age he is obviously easily set off by his hyperactive (and reactive) best friend. So when they are together it can be a REALLY ANNOYING walk. 

I must confess, at times I could barely keep my temper. They were so infuriating! 

Anyway, I did find that after 20 minutes running free at the dog park and playing fetch and chasing each other, they were totally different dogs. Puffy was back to himself and the hyperactive Topi was too tired to be a pain in the butt. They walked PERFECTLY!

I realize this may not exactly answer your question, but as someone who has a dog in a similar age group, I always have to ask myself if the dog really had enough exercise to expect him to NOT pull etc. It works like a charm. And it is a difficult catch 22 that getting the exercise required to get that nice walk often means walking! 

Good luck! You are a conscientious dog mom and you will surely find the right thing soon enough. I will be interested in if and how you fare with the gentle leader, as I have thought of it myself. On thing that turns me off a bit is the fact that people often associate it with some sort of anti-biting muzzle!


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I haven't used a head collar on Archie, but I do use a front-clip harness on him if we're going into a high-stimulus situation. At first he wore it a lot, but I've weaned back to his collar for most walks. If your expectations and pattern are the same regardless of the tool, then he should figure out that the rules are the same no matter what he's wearing. Training aids like the Gentle Leader or Easywalk harnesses just make it easier to get the behavior you want, because they mostly prevent pulling. Then you can reward the dog for not pulling.

There was a short adjustment period with Archie where he would pull like crazy every time he went back to his flat collar, but he figured it out when I gave him the same feedback he was getting on the harness (positive reinforcement for walking beside me, nothing fun for pulling ahead). I think dogs tend to assume that different equipment means different behavior expectations, so it's important to make sure you're consistent so that the training will translate across different collars/harnesses.


----------



## blueroan (Dec 28, 2015)

I would give it a try. My old tpoo had a bad habit of lunging and barking every time he saw something worthy of this attention. Finally I tried a gentle leader (a very itty bitty one!) and it WORKED! Worked like a charm. 

He did try to rub it off the first few times but then got used it, and found very quickly that pulling did not work. Of course he still barked sometimes but it was very manageable and just took a quick yoink to snap his attention back. And treats!  

Occasionally, he did pull a poodle tantrum....if he REALLY wanted to bark and lunge at something, and it prevented him from doing so, he'd roll around on the ground trying to get it off lol....


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Not that it helps for your pulling... but my brown guy Spud always wore a martingale... except when we were in the ring. Heading for the ring he wore a slip collar. He never wore it anywhere else... only for the ring.

For a guy who ranged everywhere on his martingale and retractable leash, he almost snapped to attention when the slip collar went on. He knew immediately it was show time! lol


----------



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

My Dane puppy started pulling when he got Tom about 11 months, the dreaded teenage stage. I did try a GL, but even though I spent a lot of time tying to acclimate him to it, it really didn't go so well. Plus with that long Dane neck, I was a little worried about injury. I switched to a prong collar and that worked much better. I know some people think they're too aversive, but I don't see how they're worse than a halter on the dog's face that pulls their head around when they try to pull. I think I prefer a properly fitted prong to a GL, at least for my dog. He tolerated it so much better. My ex husband has him now, but says he is doing much better and they no longer need the prong any more.


----------



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I've used the front clip harness, sometimes you just want to go for a real walk and enjoy it. I've never found going back and forth to a flat collar a problem. I've never used a head harness because I've never really liked the look of them, they look so uncomfortable to me.


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Hi everyone,
Thank you so much for all your thoughtful replies! 



PuffDaddy said:


> I am just wondering if your boy really gets enough exercise before the walks? One thing that has held me back at times from 'perfect leash training' is that I know that my dog just needs to exercise enough, and then his leash skills are great. This is a weird situation because you often need to exercise your dog by walking it! But if the dog is not walking well, how do you get enough exercise without reinforcing bad behavior?


You are right - Sammy likely does not get enough physical exercise. We try our hardest to keep him mentally stimulated in the house with obedience training as well as trick training, but he is an athlete and I really should be out in our yard more to keep him physically moving. Thank you for thinking of that area - it makes total sense. Before our obedience classes on Thursdays, I exercise him like a mad woman - I know he is an excitable dog, and that is one of the main reasons we are enrolled in class. He does behave better after a hard game of fetch.



lisasgirl said:


> I haven't used a head collar on Archie, but I do use a front-clip harness on him if we're going into a high-stimulus situation. At first he wore it a lot, but I've weaned back to his collar for most walks. If your expectations and pattern are the same regardless of the tool, then he should figure out that the rules are the same no matter what he's wearing. Training aids like the Gentle Leader or Easywalk harnesses just make it easier to get the behavior you want, because they mostly prevent pulling. Then you can reward the dog for not pulling.


Thank you for sharing your experience, lisasgirl! If I were to get a Gentle Leader, I would likely use it very similarly to how you use your front clip harness on Archie. I am not planning to give up my LLW training, but I would like to use it when we go to an exciting place. I would like to use it so that I can manage him better in his "new and exciting places" where he tries to get his way and forget his training. I am glad to know that you are weaning him off, because there is a part of me that is scared of being dependent on it. 



blueroan said:


> I would give it a try. My old tpoo had a bad habit of lunging and barking every time he saw something worthy of this attention. Finally I tried a gentle leader (a very itty bitty one!) and it WORKED! Worked like a charm.
> 
> He did try to rub it off the first few times but then got used it, and found very quickly that pulling did not work. Of course he still barked sometimes but it was very manageable and just took a quick yoink to snap his attention back. And treats!
> 
> Occasionally, he did pull a poodle tantrum....if he REALLY wanted to bark and lunge at something, and it prevented him from doing so, he'd roll around on the ground trying to get it off lol....


Thanks blueroan! I am glad to hear you had a good experience with it. If I were to get it, I am planning to introduce it very slowly. I may not use it out on our walk for a few days until Sammy gets used to it. 

It also made me smile thinking about your guy pulling a poodle tantrum.  That gave me a really cute mental image!


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Countryboy said:


> Not that it helps for your pulling... but my brown guy Spud always wore a martingale... except when we were in the ring. Heading for the ring he wore a slip collar. He never wore it anywhere else... only for the ring.
> 
> For a guy who ranged everywhere on his martingale and retractable leash, he almost snapped to attention when the slip collar went on. He knew immediately it was show time! lol


Countryboy - that is great to know that your guy Spud was able to distinguish what collar meant what. That is sort of what I am hoping that Sammy will be able to do - distinguish the difference and know what to do for each of the equipments.



oshagcj914 said:


> My Dane puppy started pulling when he got Tom about 11 months, the dreaded teenage stage. I did try a GL, but even though I spent a lot of time tying to acclimate him to it, it really didn't go so well. Plus with that long Dane neck, I was a little worried about injury. I switched to a prong collar and that worked much better. I know some people think they're too aversive, but I don't see how they're worse than a halter on the dog's face that pulls their head around when they try to pull. I think I prefer a properly fitted prong to a GL, at least for my dog. He tolerated it so much better. My ex husband has him now, but says he is doing much better and they no longer need the prong any more.


Thanks oshagc for sharing your experience! I am struggling enough with my 48lb dog, I wonder what it would be like to work with a Dane puppy in this teenage stage. That must be testing! He likely weighs more than me lol. Thank you for your candid thoughts on the GL and the prong. I am new to having dogs around, and so I appreciate all the thoughts and information available.  



Caddy said:


> I've used the front clip harness, sometimes you just want to go for a real walk and enjoy it. I've never found going back and forth to a flat collar a problem. I've never used a head harness because I've never really liked the look of them, they look so uncomfortable to me.


Caddy - My thoughts exactly!!!    It *would* be really nice to go for a relaxed stroll every now and then. I am glad to hear that you can go from the front clip harness to flat collar without problems!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm with oshagcj914 on this. I think lots of dogs don't adjust to head collars very well, front clip harnesses can be restrictive to their range of motion if not properly fitting, but a pinch collar when used properly is actually more humane than any unlimited slip collar and works on the same principles of a martingale in terms of how tension on it is generated.


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> I'm with oshagcj914 on this. I think lots of dogs don't adjust to head collars very well, front clip harnesses can be restrictive to their range of motion if not properly fitting, but a pinch collar when used properly is actually more humane than any unlimited slip collar and works on the same principles of a martingale in terms of how tension on it is generated.


Thank you lily! I think if I were to use it, I would really need to make sure it is introduced well. I remember your description on how to introduce a new equipment - put it on and not hook it up for a bit.  In the meantime - I will keep up with my LLW training!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If you look closely at any picture of Javelin you will see he has two collars on most of the time, his rolled leather blue collar and a pinch collar. The pinch collar is not always hooked to the leash, but keeping it on means I have it at hand if needed. He readily accepts putting it on as part of his getting dressed routine and likes knowing it means we are going out to do something fun.


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Noelle is a recovering puller. I put her in PA, or Puller's Anonymous a few months ago. I also like 300 pecks, and I use a front clip harness for walks when I know she's going to be excited. 

One game (and all training is a game!) we play is penalty yards. Say the dog wants to sniff a tree about 15 feet away. Mark your current position as start. Walk towards the tree, the second the dog pulls, return to start. Next time, you may go two steps towards the target. Eventually, your dog will figure out that to get to the tree, you have to go together. 
The harder you pull, the further away you get. Yield and the world is yours. 

Another thing that helped, weirdly enough, was sniffing bushes together. No, I don't mean getting on all fours, but letting Noelle know that I think that bush was very interesting too. And look, let's go sniff this one. So, we trot around our local park sniffing things together.

Bush sniffing became a game we played together. As much as I can, I try to emphasize to Noelle that we do things together. 

Keep at it. It's a work in progress around here, too.


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> If you look closely at any picture of Javelin you will see he has two collars on most of the time, his rolled leather blue collar and a pinch collar. The pinch collar is not always hooked to the leash, but keeping it on means I have it at hand if needed. He readily accepts putting it on as part of his getting dressed routine and likes knowing it means we are going out to do something fun.


Oh I must say I have never looked at it that closely, but now I'll go and observe your beautiful guy very closely 

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Noelle is a recovering puller. I put her in PA, or Puller's Anonymous a few months ago. I also like 300 pecks, and I use a front clip harness for walks when I know she's going to be excited.


Hahaha Click-N-Treat - Puller's Anonymous!! That is so good.  In seriousness I cannot believe Noelle was a puller. I like your penalty yards game. I should try that for sure. Right now as soon as he pulls, we are walking away from the thing he wants. So maybe it is good for him to realize that it isn't that I am trying to deny him goodies, but his pulling. I don't mind if he has a tree he wants, but please do not try to rip my arm doing it. 

And sniffing with your dog. Sammy will love that, but I wonder what people will think.  I am already feeling like the crazy lady walking with the dog back and forth in front of their houses.


----------



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I have old injuries to my neck, shoulder and hand and do not have much strength to deal with a puller, and pulling is painful for me.

15 years ago when Iris was a lively pup I got a gentle leader as she froze with a pinch collar or anything that jingled. It was a miracle tool for us. I used it for about a year and did the incremental training that click-n-treat used. After that year Iris was reliable with loose leash walking.

Fast forward 14 years and I have used the very same tool and techniques with the wild child, Poppy. She is much more stubborn and determined to get her way, especially when she sees a squirrel or bunny which needs chasing. Without the leader I would not be able to control her and would have reinjured my neck and shoulder.

The key to a gentle leader is fitting it properly and then using the proper loose leash training techniques. There are you tube videos showing how to fit and use the leader.

Best of luck, my stubborn child is finally learning how to be a lady on the lead.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I agree with lily cd and oshagcj914. Shortly after I got my minipoo - I was holding my arm in a weird position try to keep her in a heel position and seriously injured my arm - couldn't lift my arm to dress or drive with it for a week. My first trainer (terrible trainer) was big in using the Gentle Leader so I used it for a week. OMG not only did my dog hate it, but she started to hide when it was time to go out to potty. While I didn't have the luxury of taking weeks to introduce her to it, I did use copious amounts of fabulous treats. She did not like being lead around by the nose which is what you are doing. Plus I was worried that people might think she was dangerous and I was using a muzzle on her. I do know two people who were successful with the Gentle Leader - both of them using it on Labs.

I also looked at the "no-pull" types of harnesses but found so many reviews where dogs had continued to pull and the harnesses caused abrasions. 

I haven't used a pinch collar on my dog (I was confused when a trainer told someone in the class to get one for their dog, I had assumed she meant everyone in the class so I bought one). I've seen them in use and I see how effective they are. The dogs don't look upset or bothered by them - in fact I didn't realize some of the dogs I was training with was wearing them because they just act normal.


----------



## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

Sammy, I think from what you describe, that if you can find a way to play an organized game of fetch and tug with him in your yard for 20 minutes (or whatever it takes for him to start slowing down) before you go walking that will solve 75% of your problem. This has made a world of difference for me. From my experience, a dog his age who hasn't been exercised first and is also excitable by nature is almost an impossible force to recon with when it comes to good leash walking (and many other behaviors that require calmness and a dabble of self control). I have both Topi with his high energy and Puffy with his medium energy to contend with. Topi takes longer, but once it happens he's so much better. 


I live in an apartment and don't actually have a yard, so we often do this on the long leash before walking somewhere. Where there's a will there's a way! The difference it makes in his behavior is night and day, and all of his little naughty quirks seem to just melt away. I think of it like you've got to burn off that layer of excess energy, and then you will find your dog! Also, fetch and tug are nice because it requires a lot of fun focus and cooperation between you and the dog, which is also a good mental zone for transitioning into a walk. Maybe that will help you!


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Viking Queen - thanks for sharing your experience! I am glad to know that Gentle Leader has been a great tool for you. I am always afraid that I will get injured, especially unexpected squirrels tempt him. Those squirrels!!! I always have my arm flexed and ready for the sudden jerk so that I can take the impact with my biceps instead of my shoulder or elbow.

Skylar - thank you so much for sharing your experience, too. I closely read your thread (Need some help with a prong dog collar). It was very interesting, and I will keep it in mind for sure!

PuffDaddy - Thanks! Yeah I think I totally should push for the 20-30 minute play session before my LLW training. I really don't think Sammy gets "physical" exercise from his walk. He could and would walk for miles if he could. He is so fit and athletic. Luckily for me, I have a fenced yard so I really have no excuse!!  But you know, you could just fly over to Canada and give us playdates with Puffy and Topi - or vice versa.  But maybe they will get in too many troubles!


----------



## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

So true, I have also learned that just walking a young standard isn't adequate exercise. I am am always so impressed by how much energy they have for physical activity, and what gifted athletes they are. They are born to run and jump. it's really cool to see them in action, isn't it? 

I wish that we could come for a visit! The boys love nothing more than another poodle friend, and they are experts at tiring out every one they play with. They just run and run and run and run and then wrestle wrestle wrestle...and then RUN RUN RUN. It is a joy to watch. Today they were giving the local greyhounds a run for their money at the dog park. So fun!

I wonder if there are any other young dogs in your neighborhood who would like to come over for a play date every now and then. Do you guys have a dog park anywhere near by?


----------



## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I used a gentle leader with my first poodle and he HATED it and never got used to it. I went back to a prong with him. I used a front-clip harness with my second poodle, but I didn't like the way it restricted his front movement, so went back to a prong with him. My third poodle has never really needed more than a soft nylon martingale. My fourth is on a prong. None of these tools are wildly expensive--you might want to get all three and see which he votes for. One nice thing about the prong is that unlike the other two, you can wean him off it gradually by either using it intermittently as Lily mentioned, or flipping the prongs outward.


----------



## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

PuffDaddy said:


> I wonder if there are any other young dogs in your neighborhood who would like to come over for a play date every now and then. Do you guys have a dog park anywhere near by?


Oh yes, it is so cool to see these puppies in athlete mode. I love it!! Well - There are some dog parks in this city, but we live about 15 minute drive away from each of them. I will not take my 4 year old to the dog park, even though I am most available during the work week. This means I have to wait for my husband to get home.  I am secretly hoping that the husky puppy across the street (who is only 4 months old so not ready for rough play yet) will be a good friend of Sammy in time...

Verve - thank you for sharing your experience! I like your suggestion of trying different ones to see which one he will take. Good to know that that is an option.


----------



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Verve said:


> I used a gentle leader with my first poodle and he HATED it and never got used to it. I went back to a prong with him. I used a front-clip harness with my second poodle, but I didn't like the way it restricted his front movement, so went back to a prong with him. My third poodle has never really needed more than a soft nylon martingale. My fourth is on a prong. None of these tools are wildly expensive--you might want to get all three and see which he votes for. One nice thing about the prong is that unlike the other two, you can wean him off it gradually by either using it intermittently as Lily mentioned, or flipping the prongs outward.


I had the same experience with the GL with my Dane puppy. We did a LOT of desensitizing to the GL, but he still never tolerated it. I used a prong for a while successfully, you just have to make sure it is used and fitted correctly. I see a lot of people with really big prongs on their dogs sitting low on their necks  My ex has the pup now, and he says he is doing really well and doesn't need the prong any more. We used one of these. They're nice because you can take the prongs out and still have a nice collar. 1 Inch Keeper's Favorites Hidden Prong with Chrome ? Keeper Collars®


----------

