# Poodle agression



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My rescue Stella lost her first home because she continued to attack the family's small dog. I took her at age 2 and have had to break up more dog fights than I like to think about. I put up with it for about a year, crating her, scolding her, grabbing her by the muzzle and giving it a shake ect. Finally, I had come to the point that I was going to have to re-home her as well. My older spoo was living in fear of her... I finally let her have it. I beat the crap out of her. In one day, I got her twice and my husband got her twice. She finally understood. She could fight Carley and then fight us... she stopped fighting.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i don't have a poodle (yet), but aggression issues are often fear issues. it can be a good idea to consult a veterinary behaviorist, first to make sure there are no physical/medical issues at play and then for guidance re treatment - could be training, could be medication, could be a mix of both. i'm of the school that also believes that once beyond medical issues, different dogs may require different methods of training. starting off with a skilled behaviorist can help. emphasis on skilled. one can be certified and still not be skilled.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I actually find that Lily likes people more than she likes many other dogs, but she is around other dogs lots and lots. She has a good social reading skill and is nice with well mannered dogs, but steers clear of dogs she gets a bad vibe from. If a dog with poor manners gets in her face she gives a socially correcting message and then walks away as long as the other dog does also.

A lot of this is about socialization (to prevent problems) and desensitization (to manage and correct existing problems).


----------



## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

Has Bambi been agressive to other dogs in the past, or is this new behavior? I do hope you can find out what is causing this. (You might check with your home owners' insurance to see if they will cover at least part of the vet bill for the westie.)


----------



## My babies (Aug 14, 2012)

Did the other dog attack him first? Just wondering since you said you paid all the vet bills. If it was the other dog that attacked yours why would you be responsible for that dog's vet bills.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

My babies said:


> Did the other dog attack him first? Just wondering since you said you paid all the vet bills. If it was the other dog that attacked yours why would you be responsible for that dog's vet bills.



I was actually wondering about that one too...... when you said that your dog also got a minor injury, I understood that she got the westie after she got bit on her ear....... 



ar22dp said:


> Last week i had an unfortunate accident when i came home with my spoo Bambi. *My neighbour has a west highland white terrier that met us and got to Bambi*(both were on leach, but we werent fast enough to stop it). Bambi got a small wound on his ear that needed no attention but he grabbed the westie by the neck and tried to shake the life out of him.
> 
> Luckily Bambi let go after a slap on the nose. But the westie had a nasty cut on his neck. T*he one walking the westie wasnt the owner so i ended up spending the friday night at the vet with the westie and paying a vet bill of 1100$.* He did ok, but needed a drainage and a some stiches.


so basically you are responsible because your dog is the bigger one and the westie sustained more injuries?

I think you should pay half/half........ both dogs fought no? Just because the person walking the westie was not the owner... that does not make him/her less responsible, that person should have contributed to the bills too imo...


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanx for all the replies!

According to swedish law there is strict "dog owner responsability" witch means that the dogs registerd owner is responsable for all damages the dog does. This applies all of the time, no matter who started, where, why or if the dogs were loose or not. 

If i hadnt payed the westies owner would have gone to the small claims court and won, and i had been forced to pay the same amount and the additional court fees. Besides, im a dog-person and couldnt possibly leave a dog in need of medical attention.

I didnt actually se that well exactly how it happend, it all went down really really quick. But from the damages done its clear that the westie bit first. 

He has a few dog friends that he gets along with perfectly, both male and female. Walking past other dogs goes well, as long as the othet dog doesnt bark at him, if that happens all hell breaks loose. He has been that way the last two years i have had him.

Even if he is our snuggle-bunny i know that he is a predator, having an instinct to protect himself and his pack from attacking animals, its only natural. Having him nuterd doesnt seem to be an option since he is too old(4years) for it to give any effect.


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

He's not too old to be neutered, IMO.


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

There has been alot of discussion about the effect on neutering grown dogs. Neutering in sweden was illegal until the 90s, and its still not that common. Show dogs still cant be neuterd.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

ar22dp said:


> Thanx for all the replies!
> 
> According to swedish law there is strict "dog owner responsability" witch means that the dogs registerd owner is responsable for all damages the dog does. This applies all of the time, no matter who started, where, why or if the dogs were loose or not.
> 
> ...


That still makes no sense to me....... so basically you are responsible for all costs because your dog is bigger? 

Imagine the bite the westie inflicted on your dog was worse and your dog would also require medical attention ....... your dog would still retaliate and also bite him doing the same damage...... would you still be the only one responsible? 
Maybe I'm not getting it but the way I see it, it's just not right..

I am not saying that you should have left the other dog in need of medical attention without getting it, but I don't get it how are you the only one responsible for all damages. 



ar22dp said:


> He has a few dog friends that he gets along with perfectly, both male and female. Walking past other dogs goes well, as long as the othet dog doesnt bark at him, if that happens all hell breaks loose. He has been that way the last two years i have had him.
> 
> Even if he is our snuggle-bunny i know that he is a predator, having an instinct to protect himself and his pack from attacking animals, its only natural. *Having him nuterd doesnt seem to be an option since he is too old(4years) for it to give any effect. *


He is not too old for it to have an effect but I actually don't think that it would help much, since this sounds to me as fear aggression...... and neutered males can become more fearful so that can make it even worse in some cases. 

As you say, he does not usually start things, he reacts to other dogs....... maybe with a help of a good behaviour expert and training, lots of desensitization you could make things better.


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

The law is both good and bad, good because it is "strict" and always applies. There is never any argument over who started and whos fault it was. If the other dog is injured you halfo pay, nothing else matters.

It is bad because if my dog is chained in my back yard and another dog breaks in to attack him and that dog is injured, i halfto pay for the damages to the other dogs owner. Its a bit strange, but its the law.

Bambi is a rather causious dog, in new places he doesnt leave my side(walks 1 feet behind me), he is not interested in other people, and has a fear of strange things(barks at strangers coming to our home, barks at people behaving strange, cars parked in odd places etc..) i have always considerd those traits good assets, giving me a "heads up" if something is going down, and have rewarded them. 

The problem seems to be that he reacts explosivly to all provocation from other dogs, submissive femail dogs has never been any problems.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

ar22dp said:


> Bambi is a rather causious dog, in new places he doesnt leave my side(walks 1 feet behind me), he is not interested in other people, and has a fear of strange things(barks at strangers coming to our home, barks at people behaving strange, cars parked in odd places etc..) i have always considerd those traits good assets, giving me a "heads up" if something is going down, and have rewarded them.
> 
> The problem seems to be that he reacts explosivly to all provocation from other dogs, submissive femail dogs has never been any problems.


So basically you rewarded him for being fearful, so inadvertently you probably made it a little worse.... 

He seems to be fine if people/things "ignore" him but if the other dog barks he goes over the top.. 
This is the hardest thing to "treat" because you can't really control the other dogs. 
I think punishing him for reacting to other dogs would make matters worse, he would associate them even more with bad things. 

I think the DAP collar could help to calm him during your walks, and try to get his attention on to you whenever other dogs you don't know are near and rewarding him whenever he pays attention to you and ignores the other dogs might work, in time he can learn to ignore even the ones that bark.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I second the advice to have a complete vet check to be sure there are no underlying medical issues. Then, seek the advice of a qualified behaviorist. Pet Professional Guild and International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants are good places to help locate someone. A behaviorist can identify the cause of the aggression (assuming there are no medical issues) and design a plan for managing and reducing undesirable behavior. In general, meeting aggression with more aggression is unlikely to be an effective long-term strategy.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> My rescue Stella lost her first home because she continued to attack the family's small dog. *I took her at age 2 and have had to break up more dog fights than I like to think about. I put up with it for about a year, crating her, scolding her, grabbing her by the muzzle and giving it a shake ect. *Finally, I had come to the point that I was going to have to re-home her as well. My older spoo was living in fear of her... *I finally let her have it. I beat the crap out of her. In one day, I got her twice and my husband got her twice. She finally understood. She could fight Carley and then fight us... she stopped fighting*.




And this is how you think dogs should be treated? Or "trained?" That's not training. That's abuse and can cause a dog to shut down into a state of learned helplessness or escalate the problem some time down the road. 

There ARE other ways. Too bad people who have dogs don't find out. Or find someone who _can_, like a behaviorist. I'm astounded at the people on here thanking this poster for such an unfortunate post.

Please follow the advice of Cookieface, quoted below and not any kind of advice to mistreat your dog. And that goes for any lurkers who may be reading this thread. Management, desensitization and counter-conditioning techniques are used by behavior specialists. I've worked successfully with many dogs, including one of my own that had varying degrees of aggression issues, some toward dogs, some toward humans... almost _always_ rooting from fear. Adding more fear is not the answer.



> *quoted Cookieface.* I second the advice to have a complete vet check to be sure there are no underlying medical issues. Then, seek the advice of a qualified behaviorist. Pet Professional Guild and International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants are good places to help locate someone. A behaviorist can identify the cause of the aggression (assuming there are no medical issues) and design a plan for managing and reducing undesirable behavior. In general, meeting aggression with more aggression is unlikely to be an effective long-term strategy.


----------



## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

*Chance to Learn*



Carley's Mom said:


> Finally, I had come to the point that I was going to have to re-home her as well. My older spoo was living in fear of her... I finally let her have it. I beat the crap out of her. In one day, I got her twice and my husband got her twice. She finally understood. She could fight Carley and then fight us... she stopped fighting.





Poodlebeguiled said:


> And this is how you think dogs should be treated? Or "trained?" That's not training. That's abuse and can cause a dog to shut down into a state of learned helplessness or escalate the problem some time down the road.
> 
> There ARE other ways. Too bad people who have dogs don't find out. Or find someone who _can_, like a behaviorist.


I don't have a poodle yet but have been doing some reading on dog training and behavior. There is conflicting advice out there from experts in this realm. For a newbie like me without experience, this forum is a blessing. What's great is that it provides us with the opportunity to hear different views. We can learn from one another. I am thankful that both Carley's Mom and Poodlebeguiled and are brave and honest enough to speak about their approaches and experience.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MonicaLin said:


> I don't have a poodle yet but have been doing some reading on dog training and behavior. * There is conflicting advice out there from experts in this realm.* For a newbie like me without experience, this forum is a blessing. What's great is that it provides us with the opportunity to hear different views. We can learn from one another. I am thankful that both Carley's Mom and Poodlebeguiled and are brave and honest enough to speak about their approaches and experience.


Yes there is conflicting advice about _training_ methods. Some trainers use corrections such as collar jerks, harsh words, no primary reinforcers to speak of. Some avoid using positive punishment. Some trainers in the positive reinforcement camp find different things that motivate their dogs or find variations within the concepts of learning theory. Some use both punishment and reward. 

Bullying, threatening, using physical punishment that is painful, frightening or potentially injurious to an animal is not a method of training. It has crossed over the line to abuse or mistreatment of an animal. 

I don't understand your post Monica and am saddened by it even though you were abundantly diplomatic...what you think you are being blessed with... by learning that beating the crap out of a dog is a viable training method? The experts out there of whom you speak...who are they? Do you have some specific link to someone considered an expert you came across, who has promoted or condoned this kind of "method?" I'm sure there are people who do, but they are hardly experts. Any behaviorist with advanced degrees in the science of behavior, university behavior departments, the whole veterinary behaviorist organizations _ALL_ would never condone beating a dog. Most average, run-of-the-mill dog owners would not think it's okay, at least not most I've ever come across. I say, "most" because I have seen a couple of unfortunate incidents. But they certainly weren't experts.

I can only hope that the terminology used, "beating the crap" (4 times, to boot, twice attacked by one person and twice by the other) is a tremendous exaggeration. But from reading a few past posts by the same and of a similar sentiment, I must hold that hope cautiously in reserve.

I share your feelings that it is a blessing that we can learn from each other. Let's just make sure what we're learning keeps in line with humane treatment of an animal no matter what. If an animal is hopelessly dangerous, then let's put him down humanely. Otherwise, there is no point in having dogs. Dogs are a blessing for humans and have a _phenomenal_ and unique relationship in which we co-evolved over thousands of years. They're for us to have fun with and enjoy. They do things for us. I think they deserve respect and kind treatment at the very least. They are not under us. They are beside us, as merely different species.


----------



## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I don't understand your post Monica and am saddened by it even though you were abundantly diplomatic...what you think you are being blessed with... by learning that beating the crap out of a dog is a viable training method?


Poodlebeguiled, you are very passionate about this, and that is admirable. I am sorry that you are saddened by my post. If you had read my post more carefully, you would see that I said that ‘this forum is a blessing’. 

I would imagine that most of us agree with a more humane approach, but the tone of your message needs work. People will not be receptive to a message delivered with the intention to shame or humiliate and your precious chance to make a difference will be lost to those who really need to hear it most. We can all learn and benefit from dialogue rather than shutting it down. 

Once again, I am new here but I believe that a great many dog lovers, find themselves at the end of their rope and don’t know what else to do. I have never owned a spoo, but generally, in life, who hasn’t been there at a place where they don’t know what to do but lash out? Here is an opportunity for enlightenment.

Someone recommended the author and behaviorist *Jean Donaldson* to me, in particular the book *The Culture Clash*. I would have never found it on my own had she not led me to it. It’s so far, one of the most fascinating I’ve read. A humane look at dog psychology, from a woman who is gentle compassionate towards animals. I’m halfway but my margins are full highlighted passages and notes. Poodlebeguiled, we are of the same mind. However, if you read her reviews on Amazon, many are turned off by her pontificating, condescending, moralistic bashing. It’s a pity because, the crux of her point is incredibly strong and full of wisdom gained from experience. Unfortunately, many readers abandon her before they get to the end. If only her editor shaped her words better...


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

I wouldnt dream about raising my hand against a dog, its a crime with a prison sentance of up to 2 years and a bann on owning animals in Sweden. I only work with positiv reinforcement.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

ar22dp said:


> *I wouldnt dream about raising my hand against a dog, its a crime with a prison sentance of up to 2 years and a bann on owning animals in Sweden.* I only work with positiv reinforcement.


So I am guessing they don't show Cesar Millan's program on the TV over there ..?


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

They do show the program, but they cut out the parts where he uses methods that arent allowed. Im not a big fan my self though, so i usually dont watch it.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MonicaLin said:


> Poodlebeguiled, you are very passionate about this, and that is admirable. I am sorry that you are saddened by my post. If you had read my post more carefully, you would see that I said that ‘this forum is a blessing’. *Yes, you did. And went on that it (the forum that's a blessing provides us with different views) The gist was interpreted by me to mean that the different views, no matter what they are...are the prize you get by being on this blessed forum)[/*COLOR]
> I would imagine that most of us agree with a more humane approach, but the tone of your message needs work. People will not be receptive to a message delivered with the intention to shame or humiliate and your precious chance to make a difference will be lost to those who really need to hear it most. We can all learn and benefit from dialogue rather than shutting it down. *I do not have the ability to sugar coat and tippy toe around something as horrifying to me as mistreatment of an animal. Humans purportedly have the bigger brain and if the concept of humane treatment isn't inherent, how will wrapping it all up with cotton make a mark?*
> Once again, I am new here but I believe that a great many dog lovers, find themselves at the end of their rope and don’t know what else to do. *That's what this blessed forum is for. Or a behaviorist or decent trainer.[/*COLOR] I have never owned a spoo, but generally, in life, who hasn’t been there at a place where they don’t know what to do but lash out? Here is an opportunity for enlightenment.
> 
> Someone recommended the author and behaviorist *Jean Donaldson* to me, in particular the book *The Culture Clash*. I would have never found it on my own had she not led me to it. It’s so far, one of the most fascinating I’ve read. A humane look at dog psychology, from a woman who is gentle compassionate towards animals. I’m halfway but my margins are full highlighted passages and notes. Poodlebeguiled, we are of the same mind. However, if you read her reviews on Amazon, many are turned off by her pontificating, condescending, moralistic bashing. It’s a pity because, the crux of her point is incredibly strong and full of wisdom gained from experience. Unfortunately, many readers abandon her before they get to the end. If only her editor shaped her words better...


*Yes, I've recommended Culture Clash several times. It's a wonderfully, succinct book on behavior, honestly and correctly written. If people can't emotionally handle her disdain for those who mistreat dogs, then they probably aren't equipped to raise a dog. You can't run off of emotions and function in life very well. Humans, usually having a higher cognitive ability than animals can take the excellent information and get over themselves. If they can't get past that, then I guess that's why they can't handle their dogs...their engines run on how everything affects them. 

Jean may be disappointed in the human race in general, in what it has been doing to dogs for a long time. But she's absolutely 100% correct, It NEEDS to be said. Nothing has changed through the decades in the way humans are compelled to dominate and man handle domestic dogs...just because they can. Skirting around this misguided training advice and treatment of dogs hasn't worked on humans in general, thus far. It's high time people take what's offered out there now and make use of it in the way of handling dogs. Her book is a gift. Like she says about domestic dogs, "they're smart, but they're not that smart." Humans need to remember that and stop blaming dogs for being the innocently selfish beings they are. Humans are suppose to have the bigger brain.*

*Once again, I think, for the sake of animals, my tone is the only way I know to impart my message...apparently. Your tone in your first post makes it sound like abuse is just another view...one of many training methods that experts support. I think it's fine if what needs to be conveyed can be done without causing deep, psychological distress. But what I got out of your first post is 180 degrees opposite of what I got when you explained that you don't agree with beating a dog. So what's important to me anyway, because it's important for dogs... is explaining how I feel or think about something. That takes priority. And I always strive to choose my words carefully. And I did with my posts here. You'll notice that my posts are often edited. I'm glad the op is wise and that most people strive to find humane and behaviorally sound ways to teach their dogs or when they can't, or they get to the end of their rope, as you say, call in a professional.*


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

ar22dp said:


> Last week i had an unfortunate accident when i came home with my spoo Bambi. My neighbour has a west highland white terrier that met us and got to Bambi(both were on leach, but we werent fast enough to stop it). Bambi got a small wound on his ear that needed no attention but he grabbed the westie by the neck and tried to shake the life out of him.
> 
> Luckily Bambi let go after a slap on the nose. But the westie had a nasty cut on his neck. The one walking the westie wasnt the owner so i ended up spending the friday night at the vet with the westie and paying a vet bill of 1100$. He did ok, but needed a drainage and a some stiches.
> 
> ...


So, back to your first post...If I were in your shoes, I'd try to avoid any close proximity to other dogs for now. And you could call in a behaviorist (I know they're expensive) but usually one or two sessions should help get a plan started. Or get a few books. One that is very good is Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. What you describe sounds like your dog, Bambi retaliated after the Westie made the first attack. That's more a defensive move than out right aggression. But nonetheless, to help him change his mind about other dogs, this book offers a good protocol. Otherwise, you'll just have to be very careful around other dogs. That's the funny thing about dogs...they don't all love all dogs. And they don't have to. But they can get better about ignoring them when out and about. Of course, if one attacks the other, it's too much to expect no retaliation. They are animals, after all. 

I think a law that holds you responsible when another dog comes on YOUR property and attacks your dog, but your dog retaliates and hurts that dog...needs to be _changed_. Here, if a dog comes on your property or bothers livestock, you can shoot the dog. (out in the farming or country areas...maybe not in city limits)


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

First, welcome to PF, *MonicaLin*. I'm glad you're so eager to learn more about poodles and open to hearing other's points of view. I'm in accord with on that, and on this too.


MonicaLin said:


> I would imagine that most of us agree with a more humane approach...


 I don't happen share your read of PPG's post. That said, I don't want to see this important thread topic devolve into a discussion of tone and word choice. 

I have seen countless poodle owners, myself included, benefit from the advice and support offered here over the years. So, in your reading about dog training and behavior have you found anything in particular you think might be useful to discuss/share about managing aggression? 

I have never owned a dog that posed that challenge. I have known three people who have, two owned poodles, one a spoo, the other a mpoo. Both poodles were randomly aggressive toward _people,_ adults, children, men and women alike, but had not acted out against other dogs. Consultations with certified trainers and animal behaviorists did not result in the hoped for success in either case. Both poodles were ultimately euthanized, with the respective breeder's and vet's support. One person I know with a dog-aggressive Rottweiler manages the dog's environment 24/7. The dog is only allowed out of its crate and into the fenced yard when the second family dog is safely elsewhere. It's an incredible life altering commitment to manage. The dog had twice engaged in a bloody attack on its canine housemate (a medium-sized mixed breed male). The aggressive dog (who was the resident dog when the second was added) has been safely contained and prevented from doing harm for four years now. (Let's all keep our fingers crossed!) Should anything happen to the dog's owner, my guess it might be_ very _tough to find someone to take the Rottie on. 

Fortunately, there is a vast and very active nationwide network of Poodle Rescues. One I am aware of one, Carolina Poodle Rescue has taken on a poodle with just such a behavioral issue. There's male spoo, Sam, who bites/attacks for no (discernible) reason in their sanctuary now I believe. If anyone is need of such assistance, the person to contact at CPR is Donna Ezzell.

I am a solution-oriented person. I accept there are always problems to be solved. The more "poodleheads" (that's what my daughter calls me, a "poodlehead"!), the better! BTW, for anyone who may not already know, there's a good suggested dog training/behavior reading list here. http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...d-based-training-reading-list.html#post192149 Maybe people have more things to add to it now, the thread is pretty old.


----------



## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

ar22dp said:


> They do show the program, but they cut out the parts where he uses methods that arent allowed. Im not a big fan my self though, so i usually dont watch it.


Well then there can't be much left of it then...  

I am not a fan either but I have watched a few episodes just to see what all the fuss was about... but it just makes me mad every time I watch it! 
He's all about domination, I find most his methods are dangerous and inhumane..... and most if not all his explanation of behaviour is ridiculous, not based on any science. 

He doesn't actually have any behaviour qualifications other than "I have grew up with dogs and lived with them all my life"... not some one people should listen to if they want a good relationship with their dogs.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> Well then there can't be much left of it then...
> 
> I am not a fan either but I have watched a few episodes just to see what all the fuss was about... but it just makes me mad every time I watch it!
> He's all about domination, I find most his methods are dangerous and inhumane..... and most if not all his explanation of behaviour is ridiculous, not based on any science.
> ...


:adore::adore::adore:


----------



## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

Wild Kitten said:


> Well then there can't be much left of it then...
> 
> I am not a fan either but I have watched a few episodes just to see what all the fuss was about... but it just makes me mad every time I watch it!
> He's all about domination, I find most his methods are dangerous and inhumane..... and most if not all his explanation of behaviour is ridiculous, not based on any science.
> ...


I have always considerd the best way to get absolute obedience and total submission to make the dog love you. I saw a documentary about hyenas where the matriarc bit everyone in her pack into submission, but when she was hurt during hunting the other hyenas simply killed her and another one tok over. I wouldnt want that to happen to me. 

The downside of this way is that the dog gets overly attached to you, following you around everywhere and it doesnt take orders from others, he becomes more of a one-man dog. And it takes alot of effort, spending alot of time with the dog, and alot of temper, not showing anger of stress.


----------



## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *Yes, I've recommended Culture Clash several times. It's a wonderfully, succinct book on behavior, honestly and correctly written...
> 
> Jean may be disappointed in the human race in general, in what it has been doing to dogs for a long time. But she's absolutely 100% correct,
> *


*

Thank for your response. I'm glad to hear this and just wanted to highlight.



Poodlebeguiled said:



I do not have the ability to sugar coat and tippy toe around something as horrifying to me as mistreatment of an animal.

Click to expand...

This is understandable.*


----------



## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

Chagall's mom said:


> BTW, for anyone who may not already know, there's a good suggested dog training/behavior reading list here. http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...d-based-training-reading-list.html#post192149 Maybe people have more things to add to it now, the thread is pretty old.



Books are one of the first places I turn to for help. Wow, this list is extensive. I think it would help others. I'm just going to paste it here again for convenience so that some newcomers can find it.

----------------------

category 1 : general books
Inside of a Dog: What Dogs See, Smell, and Know: What Dogs Think and Know by Alexandra Horowitz
Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs by Suzanne Clothier
How dogs learn by Burch and Bailey
Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them by Pamela J. Reid
Dog Language by Roger Abrantes
On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals by Turid Rugaas
Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide: Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog by Brenda Aloff
Understanding the Silent Communication of Dogs by Rosie J. Lowry 

category 2: change my mind - abandon dominance
Dominance in Dogs: Fact or Fiction? by Barry Eaton (small but vital book - easy and interesting)
In Defence of Dogs - Why Dogs Need Our Understanding by John Bradshaw
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson
Oh Behave by Jean Donaldson
Dominance Theory and Dogs by James O'Heare
Bonding With Your Dog by Victoria Schade
The Other End of the Leash: Why we do what we do around dogs by Patricia McConnell
Dogs are from Neptune by Jean Donaldson 

category 3: puppies - super cute! 
Perfect Puppy by Gwen Bailey
Before & After Getting Your Puppy by Ian Dunbar 
Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnell and Brenda Scidmore

category 4: general training
The Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training by Pamela Dennison
Unlock Your Dogs Potential by Sarah Fisher
100 Ways to Train the Perfect Dog by Sarah Fisher and Marie Miller
Doctor Dunbar's Good Little Dog Book by Ian Dunbar
Clever Dog by Gwen Bailey
Getting in Ttouch with your Dog by Linda Tellington-Jones
How to Handle Living with Your Dog by Winkie Spiers
How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves by Sophia Yin
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller 

category 5: clicker training
Click to Calm by Emma Parsons
Reaching the Animal Mind: Clicker Training and What It Teaches Us about All Animals by Karen Pryor
Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pyror
Clicking with Your Dog: Step-By-Step in Pictures by Peggy Tillman
Getting Started: Clicker Training for Dogs by Karen Pryor
When Pigs Fly! Training Success with Impossible Dogs by Jane Killion 

category 6: specifics
Mine!: A Practical Guide to Resource Guarding in Dogs by Jean Donaldson
Behavior Adjustment Training: BAT for Fear, Frustration, and Aggression in Dogs by Grisha Stewart
Stress in Dogs by Martins Scholz & Clarissa von Reinhardt
Separation Distress & Dogs by James O’ Heare
Aggressive Behaviour In Dogs by James O’Heare
Aggression in Dogs by Brenda Aloff
A Guide to Living with & Training a Fearful Dog by Debbie Jacobs
Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell
Help For your Fearful Dog by Nicole Wilde
100 Ways to Solve Your Dog's Problems by Sarah Fisher & Marie Miller
Barking, the Sound of a Language by Turid Rugaas
How to teach a new dog old tricks by Ian Dunbar
Fight!: A Practical Guide to the Treatment of Dog-dog Aggression by Jean Donaldson
Feisty Fido: Help for the Leash-Reactive Dog by Patricia Mcconnell
Scaredy Dog - Understanding & Rehabilitating your Reactive Dog by Ali Brown
Feeling Outnumbered - How to manage and enjoy a multi dog household by Patricia McConnell & Karen London
Stop - How to control predatory chasing in dogs by David Ryan
Focus not Fear - Training insights from a Reactive Dog Class by Ali Brown
The Canine Commandments by Kendal Shepherd (a must for anyone with children) 

category 7: in-depth
The Evolution of Canine Social Behavior by Roger Abrantes
Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training: Volume I, II & III by Steve Lindsay
Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt (good in particular for those doing actually training & classes)
Dogs a New Understanding of Canine Origin Behaviour and Evolution by Ray & Lorna Coppinger
Dog Behaviour: Genetics And The Social Behavior Of The Dog by John Paul Scott
Canine Neuropsychology for Dog Behaviour Counselors and Trainers by James O'Heare
Canine Behavior: A Guide for Veterinarians by Bonnie Beaver
Changing People, Changing Dogs, Positive Solutions for Difficult Dogs by Dee Ganley
Aggressive Behaviour in Dogs a comprehensive technical manual for professionals by James O’Heare
Low Stress Handling, restraint and Behaviour modification of Dogs & Cats Techniques for developing patients who love their visits by Sophia Yin


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

monicalin - to your point about jean donaldson's conveyed persona, i personally find her offputting. but she did make some (imo) salient points in an interview:

Obviously, not everyone who comes out of the Academy for Dog Trainers will have an equal level of skills. How do you suggest that people find a skilled trainer?_
It is definitely buyer beware. Obviously, we don’t have control over our grads. We have an occasional grad go “renegade” – they want our certification because it holds some weight, and then they go off and train however they want. And we will occasionally get complaints that, hey, we were expecting someone who was not going to harm our dog, and this [graduate] proceeded to use this tool or what have you. You know, we really cannot police what people do. So it is very much a buyer-beware market.
People need to decide how they are comfortable training, and they need to find a trainer who is a good match for them. So if they feel comfortable using choking and pain, because it is still legal to do so, they can find those trainers. They will usually advertise themselves as balanced, eclectic, mixed, and so on. If people are not comfortable hurting their dogs, they need to find trainers who will usually advertise themselves as nonaversive or all-positive. That will get the philosophy part down. The competence part is tougher. You may be able to find a trainer who has the right philosophy but then competence is a question.
It is probably best to get a referral_ f_rom your veterinarian or from somebody who has no vested interest in it, as a good starting point. Maybe friends, colleagues, people who’ve had a good experience that can vouch for a trainer. CPDT [Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers] is one designation. Our credential is another. It certainly means a trainer has at least tried to get a minimum of education.
Trainers who attend conferences, who attend seminars, those are all flags that they are probably a good trainer, but it’s not a guarantee. And certainly, if any trainer does something that somebody’s uncomfortable with, be it positive reinforcement or something that’s more coercive, just fire them right off. Do not be talked into it. Get somebody else.
The most important thing is to be really, really careful. Until we get dog trainer licensing, there is no consumer protection … I mean, if you think about it, you can’t even give a manicure or a haircut without minimum education and licensing. Dog training is the absolute Wild West._
...
Any last thoughts for our readers on the important qualities in dog trainers?
_The great leveler is good technical knowledge … so there are two discussions. One is, are you technically competent? The other is, what is your philosophy, vis-à-vis, do you use pain in training? I think those are two discussions that people tend to muddle together, and say, well, you’re only competent when you use positive reinforcement. Well, not necessarily. You can only use positive reinforcement and be incompetent. Likewise, you can use punishment and be competent or incompetent. So these are modular qualities in trainers.
People need to be informed consumers. They need to know what they will be getting. They are going to be paying someone money to do something that first of all could do the dog harm, second of all could make the dog worse, so they have to consider the two issues of competence and philosophy, and *make sure that they get somebody who is competent, and then somebody who philosophically makes them feel comfortable.


* _i personally don't feel comfortable with people who advocate positive methods but use fingerpointing, yelling and general bullying to try to convince people they are right. i actually mentioned this in an exchange on the comment section of a major newspaper and the positive trainer who was practicing this technique was intelligent enough to stop and to make his points without demonizing everyone who disagreed, however minutely, with him.


----------



## MonicaLin (Mar 18, 2014)

patk said:


> monicalin - to your point about jean donaldson's conveyed persona, i personally find her offputting. but she did make some (imo) salient points in an interview:
> 
> Obviously, not everyone who comes out of the Academy for Dog Trainers will have an equal level of skills. How do you suggest that people find a skilled trainer?_
> It is definitely buyer beware. Obviously, we don’t have control over our grads. We have an occasional grad go “renegade” – they want our certification because it holds some weight, and then they go off and train however they want. And we will occasionally get complaints that, hey, we were expecting someone who was not going to harm our dog, and this [graduate] proceeded to use this tool or what have you. You know, we really cannot police what people do. So it is very much a buyer-beware market.
> ...


This is excellent. And I'm with you about the finger pointing, yelling and all. Sometimes a softer voice is more effective.

This forum is way too addictive. I must sign off and have dinner with my lovely children and hubs. :bird:


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

:focus: Some reading to sink your teeth into.
Just thought I'd get the ball rolling. :roll:Others may have more current and/or useful links to share. Hope they will!
Modifying Aggressive Dog Behavior - Whole Dog Journal Article
Multi-Dog Household Aggression - Whole Dog Journal Article
Teaching an Aggressive Dog How to Be Social Around Other Dogs - Whole Dog Journal Article
Animal Behavior Resources Institute
Animal Behavior Resources Institute


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

More for your aggressive reading...:becky:
Aggression & Some Reasons Behind It | Suzanne Clothier


----------



## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> More for your aggressive reading...:becky:
> Aggression & Some Reasons Behind It | Suzanne Clothier


Do you have anything for poodle-_owner _aggression??? LOL

Having a bad day at work... :argue: :banghead: :argh:


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Manxcat said:


> Do you have anything for poodle-_owner _aggression??? LOL
> 
> Having a bad day at work... :argue: :banghead: :argh:


Writing a book on it now! Want to be in the front cover photo? :lol: Hope your day turns around!!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Manxcat said:


> Do you have anything for poodle-_owner _aggression??? LOL
> 
> Having a bad day at work... :argue: :banghead: :argh:


So sorry you are having a bad day. I have enough understanding of the nature of your work to realize that a bad day for you probably also means a bad day for others who are in some sort of trouble. I hope things lift.


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Manxcat said:


> Do you have anything for poodle-_owner _aggression??? LOL
> 
> Having a bad day at work... :argue: :banghead: :argh:




Hug your poodles, have a nice cocktail and go to bed. Forget about the day when it ends, a new day will bring new joy!


----------



## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

LOL - the day got better, the sun is shining, I have new vertical blinds fitted, I've booked to go away for a week (sans poodles and husband though), am home with the poodles and hubby is cooking dinner... *sigh*... doesn't take much to cheer me up 

And at some point I will get around to reading all the brilliant poodle literature quoted on this thread! Just not tonight... :wink:


----------

