# Flying jump bites



## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Okay so this is hard for me. Leeroy is a teenager spoo. And since he wasn't trained as a puppy, and we're his 3rd owners, AND we've only had him 2 months, I know we have a ways to go. 

I also know he is a teenager and he's being a stinker. He's been a turd lately with sometimes refusing to listen to commands, too. But that's a different topic. 

It's been snowing and it makes him crazy outside. He wants to play like mad. He eats the snow and then runs around like he wants us to chase him. That's cute, but it stops being cute when he runs up and flies into you full force, biting hard. He does it several times over and over again. I know he thinks he's playing but I don't like that at all. 

I've tried being firm with a no, which he just stares and then the second I move he does it again...I've tried turning away and not saying anything to let him know I won't engage... Neither work well, and tonight the latter made him just bark and run around so he can jump on us again. 

The worst of it is the biting. He has no restraint when he gets worked up like that. We aren't even working him up either, we just walk around in the yard and he gets crazy hyper. 

His bites have left bruises and sometimes it sounds like he's going to rip my coat. 

I would love some advice. Thank you!

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Leash time when you are out together, I think. Hitting and biting mean back in the house for a five minute time out; then outside again. Rinse and repeat. If your yard is safe for him to be out in alone then I would let him play while staying in the doorway myself, and call him back frequently for a good reward; if he is too rowdy close the door on him for a few minutes while keeping watch. Encourage games that don't require physical contact - perhaps a ball and chucker? I would also work hard on impulse control games through the rest of the day - It's your choice, Settling, Wait for games and treats. Keep the time you expect him to control himself very short at first, but make it very clear that Good Stuff Happens to Polite Poodles, while rude, pushy, bullying dogs get ignored. It will take time - as you say, he is a teenager and it sounds as if his education was minimal before you got him - but you will get there.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Thank you for the suggestions! That's a good idea about waiting at the door. Though we often have to go into the yard to get him to go poo then we have to go pick it up. 

After posting I tried doing it's yer choice impulse training with his running in the yard. He's fine with it in the house. Once he's outside it all goes out the window. So I'm trying to train him that it's fine if he runs to me, but that he needs to slow down and look at me and not jump and bite. He's seeming to slowly get it. After I reward him he then jumps because he's excited so I turn my back to him and wait for him to stop, which he does. I can see him wagging his tail from his shadow behind me so I know he thinks that the biting and jumping is play. 

Phew ... It's so stressful! The biting is the worst. It really hurts. He goes for the arms. 

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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Hi meljen. Welcome to my world, but it is agility, not playing outdoors that triggers my spoo. He is nearly 3 years old and during the last 6 months has settled a bit. There is light at the end of the tunnel. (Caveat, intact male here)

He was the perfect puppy until about 8 months, and then the crazies set in. His impulse control is exceptional at the back door (training from day 1), and a pause and eye contact is required at every door, at home and in public, as well as dog ring entry gate. None the less, he is so excited about agility that impulse training goes out the window.

My instructor was against even just removing him from the ring when he did this, and he is a soft dog mostly, so perhaps she’s right. His excitement behavior is the vertical leap, with his face very close to the human’s, sometimes nipping (it was normal for me to leave class with blood on my hands). I was amazed that my instructor, 6” shorter than me, stood her ground against this leap. My perspective was that allowing him to “play” at agility was rewarding this behavior. Even some of the top agility trainers discourage anything that may curb a dog’s natural drive—boy, does he have drive!

As I said, it is much improved. I do believe that the handler needs to remain ultra calm, deep breath and relax, cause our excitement level can make it worse. This is a challenge for me.

My excitable agility boy was so thrown off by highway noise that he missed an exterior hide in a nosework trial yesterday. If his two personalities could just meet in the middle!

Perhaps work on impulse control where the temptations are not so attractive, to get the basics in place if they are missing. It may be a while before Leeroy will be able to engage his brain during the most tempting activities. But eventually a calmer spoo will emerge (or so I’m told:wink


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with fjm. On leash when outside with you and when he is out along recall him and pay well frequently with a polite sit or down when he arrives. It should not take too long for him to figure out that crazy ends fun and no biting means more fun. 



When Javelin goes up and gets silly (which can include jumping up and grabbing my hand) I put him on a down stay. He now actually knows that if I say stop it or a really firm no that he needs to take a time out and he actually puts himself on the down. I then spend some time doing focused attention work before releasing from the down to a sit and then ordering him to sit at heel. 



Do you know if biting behavior had anything to do with why previous home(s) game him up?


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Do you know if biting behavior had anything to do with why previous home(s) game him up?


Actually his first owners kept him in a crate 24/7 and wanted to just breed him for money, and also he went through abuse and being called 'stupid'. They didn't want to deal with him. Both owners wanted him as a stud only, due to the breeders having show dogs... Even though his papers said he was not meant to be bred out. 

So we ended up taking him and refused to breed him out. He needed love, patience, training, and a family. He is through the roof confident with us and almost never cowers or submissive pees with us after only 2 months (he stopped the peeing after a couple weeks). He also used to be terrified of men and now loves my husband and doesn't cower with him at all. 

I really think it's an issue of him receiving such sudden attention and love that his confidence has soared intensely and he wants to jump and show off. He was never worked through puppy biting or any puppy behavior at all, actually. So he's going through both puppy and teenager behavior all at once. 

At least these are my theories. He never jumped-bit until he stopped submissive wetting, and it only got intense after it snowed and we started playing fetch with him a lot. Both the previous owners were men and horribly rough with him, causing him to wet all of the time over the tiniest things. So I'm sure it was more of that as an issue.

Breaks my heart to think about it really. 

When I took him out of his crate this morning, he didn't jump up on me like he normally does. We've been doing crate games to help him be calm when I open the door. I think last night's impulse training outside helped too. I also took treats out with me for morning potty and as he ran toward me like he was going to jump, he actually waited, looked at my hand and up at me. I could see him stopping himself like he remembered. He did jump up once when we were headed back inside but I turned away from him and he stopped. 

I think the impulse training outside is helping IMMENSELY!

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

scooterscout99 said:


> Hi meljen. Welcome to my world, but it is agility, not playing outdoors that triggers my spoo. He is nearly 3 years old and during the last 6 months has settled a bit. There is light at the end of the tunnel. (Caveat, intact male here)
> 
> He was the perfect puppy until about 8 months, and then the crazies set in. His impulse control is exceptional at the back door (training from day 1), and a pause and eye contact is required at every door, at home and in public, as well as dog ring entry gate. None the less, he is so excited about agility that impulse training goes out the window.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your story! 

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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

You've been given such good advice, and good for you for getting started on it right away. This is a very lucky dog to have found you. BTW, my spoos still jump up in the air to bite hands out of excitement when I come home sometimes. I cross my arms and turn away from them until they settle down, without any words or emotion, and it works pretty quickly.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

zooeysmom said:


> You've been given such good advice, and good for you for getting started on it right away. This is a very lucky dog to have found you. BTW, my spoos still jump up in the air to bite hands out of excitement when I come home sometimes. I cross my arms and turn away from them until they settle down, without any words or emotion, and it works pretty quickly.


Thank you, and yes is does seem to work pretty quickly! 

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

He sounds like a dog with a lovely temperament and a great deal of intelligence - and one who knows how lucky he is to have found you. The trick is to teach him how to control himself without squashing his newly found joie de vivre - thank heavens for reward based training!


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

It sounds like he needs to burn off some energy - I know that it is a two edged sword to feed into high energy behavior. My mini needs to at times be redirected into retrieve games - which only happen if he follows ALL the rules. No pushing - no barking - no mouthing (or I turn into a silent statue of stone). However offer me a sit (and boy he will offer that fast) and I will throw the ball. Retrieve the ball back into my open hand (that is a rule that an older very experienced dog lady drilled into me - thanks Anne Allbright Smith) so you never have to pick up the ball from the floor - your back will thank you. Usually after 6 or so runs - which are part retrieve part zoomies - we do seem to find our brains again and are ready to work. I know for some dogs this would push them over the edge in terms of craziness but for others it is the outlet of that energy burst that they need.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

fjm said:


> He sounds like a dog with a lovely temperament and a great deal of intelligence - and one who knows how lucky he is to have found you. The trick is to teach him how to control himself without squashing his newly found joie de vivre - thank heavens for reward based training!


Thank you! And oh I know... I was so sad because I don't want to kill his spirit. 

Part of what I do outside is I also back up and have him practice stay, then I excitedly have him run toward me. I then have the treat in hand so he slows down and looks at me rather than 'attacks'. That way he knows he can run and play and bounce but that he shouldn't jump up and bite. It seems to be working quickly! It's also making 'come here' more fun for him and he's already listening in the house more, too.

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Moni said:


> It sounds like he needs to burn off some energy - I know that it is a two edged sword to feed into high energy behavior. My mini needs to at times be redirected into retrieve games - which only happen if he follows ALL the rules. No pushing - no barking - no mouthing (or I turn into a silent statue of stone). However offer me a sit (and boy he will offer that fast) and I will throw the ball. Retrieve the ball back into my open hand (that is a rule that an older very experienced dog lady drilled into me - thanks Anne Allbright Smith) so you never have to pick up the ball from the floor - your back will thank you. Usually after 6 or so runs - which are part retrieve part zoomies - we do seem to find our brains again and are ready to work. I know for some dogs this would push them over the edge in terms of craziness but for others it is the outlet of that energy burst that they need.


We were doing fetch quite a bit but we've tailored back on exercise and are focusing more on do nothing and mat exercises to teach him to calm himself and also some brain games and impulse training. We're going to put exercise back in soon. Especially loose leash walking so he learns not to pull so much on walks. 

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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I had to curb retrieving for a while - when we were super mouthy a couple of months ago - right now he can't do it until his knee is better - but when we retooled the game into more rules and less tolerance for insanity it worked really well especially to focus him - it was the fastest way for me to show him we can do wild stuff - and your enthusiasm is appreciated but only on my terms.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Moni said:


> I had to curb retrieving for a while - when we were super mouthy a couple of months ago - right now he can't do it until his knee is better - but when we retooled the game into more rules and less tolerance for insanity it worked really well especially to focus him - it was the fastest way for me to show him we can do wild stuff - and your enthusiasm is appreciated but only on my terms.


Yeah we'll probably have to change it up too. 

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## Maggied (Sep 6, 2018)

It sounds like it is working out in a terrific fashion for all three of you. You are reminding me to be diligent about rewarding good behavior in my pup. The "brainiacs" as someone walking by described poodles, learn quickly! Maggie


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## karenm0 (Feb 2, 2010)

You might consider using an ultrasonic auditory feedback tool for correction. 

Our standard, Ziggy, has had a barking issue all of his life. We tried a variety of proactive training methods to re-educate him about when barking is appropriate, but none worked. A couple of weeks ago we got a BossBee Ultrasonic Bark Control Trainer ($30 through Amazon). When you press a button, it emits a high-pitched tone (inaudible to humans) that can annoy/distract your dog from barking. Ziggy barked, we said “no bark” and clicked the button. He stopped, tried it again - we said no bark and clicked the button. And he stopped! The next time he heard the knock at the door we said “no bark” and didn’t have to correct! Lots of praise for obeying the “no bark” command! We have only had to use it a couple of times since the first day - I think Zig occasionally wants to test us to see if it’s still a rule! Sometimes he can’t help himself and grumbles instead of barking. It’s pretty cute and we can live with that! Lol! 

In any case, I think this could be a good tool to use to correct other types of behaviors - especially something as potentially dangerous as jumping and biting! When your dog becomes overly wild, direct him to (sit/or-whatever) - press the ultra-sonic beeper if he doesn’t comply, and reward him lavishly when he does. 21% of the Amazon reviewers said their dogs didn’t respond to the sound, but 57% gave it 5 stars. Of the ones that said their dog “got used to it” I’d say they were probably using it to “deter” only, not as a tool to teach a command. And the price is right - it doesn’t break the bank to try it. I’ll give it 5 stars! 

Although this doesn’t fall in the category of *positive*reinforcement, it has given us tons of opportunity to reward our pup for good/compliant behavior! 

Good luck!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

karenm0 the only big concern I have for using tools like that is that your timing of the corrective signal must be impeccable. For myself and more people than not I suspect we tend to be too slow to deliver those signals and therefore they become meaningless or worse punitive of nothing and can then generate mistrust from the dog. I don't even use a clicker because I find juggling it and getting the right timing to be very inconsistent for my needs. Verbal markers work better for me.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Thanks for the suggestion regarding the ultrasonic method, but we also have two cats, one of them being elderly, along with two geckos. I don't want to be cruel to them by using something like that around Leeroy. 

I think I may have figured something out. Because his jumps are like two different dogs in the indoor/outdoor settings, I found myself reacting differently and accidentally using different commands.

Indoors when he gently jumps up to get to our faces, I point to the floor and say 'down'. Then when he's down I give him attention. It works well. 

Outdoors we were doing everything BUT that due to how violent he gets with the jumping. It is oh so hard to not be reactive and to time it right with how quickly (and hard) he jumps against us as he flies through the air. 

The good news is the biting has almost completely stopped. We've been doing impulse training with every treat indoors and frequently as we interact with him when he's outside. 

This morning he jumped on me a few times. Out of being tired and very cold, I reacted a few different ways and then finally said firmly 'DOWN' and be stopped and looked at me. I then gave him a treat and praised him for stopping. I gave him another when he went up the stairs without jumping and another once we were inside. 

Ironically the impulse training seems to be helping with the jumping... I'm not sure. Maybe he's slowly getting tired of the fact that we don't play in response to his jumping. Maybe if I keep rewarding him when he's NOT jumping he might be more interested in behaving. 

Sort of like treating for mat training.

We'll see! 

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

As for a clicker... Yeah we bought one as I thought it would help, mostly to let him know when he's been good on a walk, since it's much harder to get his attention then. But we're going to be loose leash training so we hopefully don't have to worry about that anyway.

And I agree... It's kind of awkward. It works for some but not for me. I also think Leeroy reacts more to the positive interaction and praise versus a click sound. He actually got a little weird and hyper with the click. 

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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think there are two or three essentials in all dog/puppy training: impulse control; focused attention and getting them to understand how to settle themselves (which is really connected to impulse control). Keep up with those and you will get to where you need to be. I am glad you are already seeing improvements and yes it is hard not to react badly to being slammed into and having teeth on your flesh, isn't it?


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> I think there are two or three essentials in all dog/puppy training: impulse control; focused attention and getting them to understand how to settle themselves (which is really connected to impulse control). Keep up with those and you will get to where you need to be. I am glad you are already seeing improvements and yes it is hard not to react badly to being slammed into and having teeth on your flesh, isn't it?


Yes it is! Especially when he grabs our clothing as he flies by, or accidentally bites hard, or when he almost knocked me down the icy stairs. 

It's also tricky as my husband and 2 kids help take him outside, so it's hard to be consistent. 

I've been doing a LOT of mat training, and even softly praising him when he lays down on his own. It is seeming to make a huge difference compared to last week. More and more each day he relaxes on his own. When he's not doing that he grabs one of his toys or a chew bone. On days where he's really antsy, I give him a Kong or another brain game type thing then follow it with mat training.

Also when I do impulse training and many times when I am just giving him a treat, I have him look at me first. 

I've also noticed that he responds more willingly when we use the commands positively rather than a punishment... Like 'come here' being used more often for treat and petting vs. a scolding. Same with sitting. When he listens we praise him and/or treat him and I think that is also working quickly. 

Thanks again, as always, for all of the help.

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Scolding or punishing is a quick way to wreck a cue - why would he come if he knows something unpleasant is going to happen? If it is something unpleasant and essential, go to fetch him. Make coming when called something that is always rewarded, with treats, praise, a game and/or being released to go back to having fun. Same with all the other cues - Good Stuff happens to Polite Poodles. One of the easiest mistakes to make in educating a dog is accidentally reinforcing the behaviours you don't want (like fun games and lots of attention when he jumps), and punishing away behaviours you do want (calling him and then scolding him, or always going home as soon as he comes). The more you watch yourself and your family the more you will recognise when you are doing it, and the easier it will become to be consistent.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

fjm said:


> Scolding or punishing is a quick way to wreck a cue - why would he come if he knows something unpleasant is going to happen? If it is something unpleasant and essential, go to fetch him. Make coming when called something that is always rewarded, with treats, praise, a game and/or being released to go back to having fun. Same with all the other cues - Good Stuff happens to Polite Poodles. One of the easiest mistakes to make in educating a dog is accidentally reinforcing the behaviours you don't want (like fun games and lots of attention when he jumps), and punishing away behaviours you do want (calling him and then scolding him, or always going home as soon as he comes). The more you watch yourself and your family the more you will recognise when you are doing it, and the easier it will become to be consistent.


Yep! We accidentally reinforced the jumping and biting when it initially seemed cute. And I totally agree with the commands used for scolding. Kids wouldn't want to listen to that either, lol. 

We do have to physically carry him for baths in the bathroom. We never scold when that happens because I know he's afraid.

I especially work on 'come here' not being a scolding command like so many do, and he actually listens to it. Even when we use it to call him out of a place he's not supposed to be, we reward him for listening and try to not use a scolding voice. 

Same with 'sit'.

Again thanks for the advice 

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## karenm0 (Feb 2, 2010)

I agree (lily) - using the ultrasonic device requires some attention to timing. But, at least with our spoo, precision wasn’t an issue. I think overuse could totally derail a tool like that. Before we had that gadget, when Ziggy barked we’d “bark” “no bark” right back. I’m sure -*that* was confusing! The best thing for us has been that Ziggy quickly understood what we wanted. We used the ultrasonic tool VERY little before he understood and complied. He has always wanted to please - and now that he gets that barking isn’t the best way to alert and protect us, we are all happier! 

As for cats hearing the sound? I don’t know whether that would be an issue.

All of that said, it sounds like the original poster is seeing results with the changes she’s made, so - hurray! ?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

karenm0, I am a biology professor and so my thinking about training tools and techniques is generally tied to my thinking as a scientist. I would never reject a tool out of hand (other than choke chains for which I see no humane reason) but rather like to look at the advantages and disadvantages analyticially and to make note of ways the tool or technique will work effectively vs. potential problems in its use. My main reason for talking about that ultrasonic corrector is that since a person has to operate it timing could be an issue. I actually have collars with automatic anti-bark vibrators for my dogs since I know my timing and consistency would be an issue if I had to press a button.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I just want to tell you I think you have brought your boy a long long way from his hard beginning and that you saw what his potential could be, is wonderful! Thank You for having a good heart! Good Job!!


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I just want to tell you I think you have brought your boy a long long way from his hard beginning and that you saw what his potential could be, is wonderful! Thank You for having a good heart! Good Job!!


Aw thank you so much!!!

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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I tried the barking tool and my little one Cayenne, she would run to the office and continue to bark she knew how far to get away from it. So then I got a flyswatter, think I cracked her butt 2 times, now when people comes and she won't settle down, I say flyswatter. She and the other 2 stop immediately and lays down. I stopped it within 3 days.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

I won't hit or use an object to hit, sorry. He was manhandled by his first two owners, including being hit on the face, and I've worked really hard to get him to the point where he doesn't submissive pee anymore. I don't want to revert. But thanks for sharing your story. 

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Okay an update. I was going to start a new thread but I'll keep updates with his outdoor behavior here. I've got so much going on with him I'd have a million threads otherwise.

**I NEED to reiterate that this is outdoor behavior. No barking issues, the biting has gotten better with impulse training... But he is like Jekyll and Hyde between indoor and outdoor behavior. Indoors he wanders and gets a little antsy, we're doing mat training and other things to help with that but he is softer and gentle and listens. Outdoors he is wild, disobedient, and rough. This is probably another issue with his previous owners. 

The first ones kept him caged for the first 8 months of his life and the 2nd owners let him run wild outside.. in fact they almost exclusively kept him outside, with almost no training or human interaction. He would mimic the other poorly behaved dogs with barking at everyone, not letting anyone get near him, etc. Since we adopted him that behavior immediately stopped because we showered him with love. But he also got hit on the face and had rocks thrown at him when he'd bark at all before we adopted him. His previous owners really make me angry.

Okay so with snow on the ground, Leeroy is insane. And since he's kind of grounded from exercise until we can get his relaxing and impulse under control, it's made worse when we have to take him out to potty. 

I do plan on graduating to loose leash training once he gets his self relaxation habits more solid. No exercise walking until he learns to behave. We made the mistake of letting him do poor behavior on his walks and it's a mess fixing that now.

Yes he has toys and chew things and Kongs. 

He was more nervous when we first adopted him about 2 and a half months ago, so I took him out about every 3 hours to go potty between 7:30am and midnight. He was going softer poo then. 

His poo has gotten more normal now, I mix in canned pumpkin for his dinner Kong and add probiotic powder so his guts can settle while he sleeps, as he tends to be nervous and wound first thing in the morning. 

Anyway... Since yesterday when we take him out to go potty he won't go. He just defiantly runs from one pee spot to the other, buries his nose in it, and won't listen. He eats snow endlessly (which I'm fine with, that's kind of hilarious), and runs back and forth like crazy. I mean a black blur. Its like he's using it as a chance to cheat and exercise anyway, which makes the rest of the day a mess with his behavior. 

So I've started taking him on a leash out there. If he pulls, I stop dead in my tracks and say NO PULL. if he jumps I hold the leash tight and stand still and say UH UH DOWN, and if he keeps doing it we go back inside and I sit down with him (still leashed) and I ignore him for a few minutes. Then we try again. Rinse repeat. 

I don't get what's going on. What's weird is now instead of jumping on us he is focusing on the intense sniffing and burying his nose and refusing to go to the bathroom. He only started jumping again today when I put the leash on. He used to do that on walks, because he was excited, and we made the mistake of going on the walk anyway. 

Should we wait longer between potty breaks so he really has to go? Also, he used to go every time and we'd give him a milk bone when we came inside. Now I'm not wanting to do that if he just screws around and acts like a tool. I don't want him to think he can be naughty outside and come in for a reward. He very much knows what go potty and go poo mean, I've been using it several times a day since we adopted him and normally he immediately goes. 

The frustrating thing is he won't hardly go potty on a leash either unless it's super long, especially when it comes to going poo. I don't know what his previous owners did to him but if you're near him when he wants to poo he won't go. If he does he runs off like he's going to get into trouble for going. If I have him on a leash longer than about 5 feet or so, he gets too wild. 

I am trying so hard. I do research a lot, read, watch videos, and like I said he has a handful of power chewer bones in different flavors, he had squeaky toys that he destroyed, he has a rope bone he loves to gnaw on, and we're home almost 24/7 and have him in the front room with us, giving him love and attention a lot. 

So I don't know if he's just being a turd and rebelling against us putting our foot down with the poor behavior outside or what. 

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you are doing very well, and he has come a very long way, but he is a young dog and really needs to run and have the stimulation of being out and about, as well as the mental work that is training. I would use the running and playing and being silly as a reward - Focus on me, Good dog, OFF you go, Come, Focus, Sit, OFF you go. Otherwise all that pent up energy has to break out somewhere, probably in ways you do not like. 

Sort of connected - I took Sophy out for late pees and poos and found some of my neighbours having a barbecue on the grounds we share - sausages, chicken, crisps... With great difficulty I called Sophy away - several minutes of persuasion and insistence - then, when she finally came to me, I told her she was a very good dog and could go back for a while. It was almost accidental - she so very much wanted to stay at the party and I had no need to go home immediately - but it was the most effective reward I could have chosen. She went from resigned to joyous, and 15 minutes later followed me home perfectly happily. Life rewards can be extremely powerful.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I have a different approach to training while I do like "positive enforcement" training, which is fine on some dogs but it isn't on all. From your posts it seems you are doing positive training, I could be totally wrong. (I use a mix of training methods) First stop feeling sorry for him for his past life, there is nothing you can do about it, he will forget about it. You probably won't like my opinions but its ok. I would continue with the mat training. Look up some videos from Jeff Gellman at teaching "place command". It is what your doing but he cannot leave the mat ever, until given a "free" command. Work with the "sit on the dog". he is leashed and you sit on the leash while he lies on the floor next to you. Good practice if your teaching your children at home, or watching tv. Outdoors only take him out on leash, after he potties then you can give him a ball to run with and fetch a few times. Use a flirty pole to get his attention back on you to come, reward for come and sit front. I would also use a pinch collar on him when leashed so you can correct his behavior or an electronic collar to nip the biting and jumping. This really is dangerous behavior and if not gotten under control will end up with him being rehomed again. If that is only your biggest issue with him (jumping & biting outdoors) get the electronic collar, learn to use it, do not shock him (i'd only use that if it was extreme) . And really do not think about his past, with dogs its the here & now. Right now it sounds like he is being treated like royalty, make him earn that so he will respect you. So thats just my opinion and I've had many dogs in my 67 years, several came from bad situations. One of the lessons I 1st teach my dogs is to go to their crate n remain calm in there, Jeff Gellman also has a video on that, my dogs don't rush out they wait, with the door open until given the command, "free"(its a means of teaching respect). I also use this at doors, so no bolting out.
You are doing wonderful with this boy and I seriously feel the e-collar would help you tremendously. I think loving him is wonderful but in the end you want him to respect you and to obey you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First I know you are feeling frustrated, but you can't show him that you are frustrated. In fact you have to be truly relaxed and calm to keep his mental state matching yours and keep him able to think about what he is doing. I agree with Mufar that you have to let go of being angry/sad about his past. It is the past. Knowing some of what happened to him can certainly inform your training, but shouldn't excuse him from paying attention to what you are doing or be a reason to allow jerky behavior to continue. It may take time to extinguish some of these behaviors more than others, but it will get there. Also remember the 3 Ds of dog training: duration, distance, distractions. To teach and then reinforce behaviors of any sort you first increase the duration the dog can do it while you are close to him in a quiet environment. Then you add distance between you and the dog in a quiet environment. Then you add distractions up close and later distractions at distance. Most people skip steps, often without realizing they are doing it. They take the dog to PetSmart and wonder why the dog sniffs continuously and won't sit or do anything polite and then say "but he never does this kind of stuff at home!" Home barely counts against what happens in a high distraction environment in a store with other crazy dogs and that smells like Willy Wonka's place., but is wildly important for the low distraction duration and distance work. I taught Javelin to do long sits and downs in PetSmart on a long line, but only took him there after months of doing it at home, in the yard and at my obedience club when it was quiet there.

Next I would increase the time between potty outings. He is physically grown enough that now that you have his digestive tract sorted out he should not need to go out that often. Both of our poodles tend to poo once a day and Peeves usually does twice a day. One of my work days has a 4 1/2 hour stretch where I don't have a break to let Javelin go out for a potty stop. He does just fine and can actually wait up to 5+ hours if something odd happens. Also rather than giving a treat when you go back in give a treat right when he finishes going. Waiting until you go in the house doesn't reward having pottied since the action and the reward are totally disconnected. Rewards need to come within 3 seconds after the behavior it is meant to reinforce.

I also agree with Mufar that it is unrealistic to train only using positive reinforcement for all dogs/scenarios. Corrective information is just that, information. Just like "UH OH Down," other corrections convey information. At the same time I also agree with fjm that a life reward after a correct behavior is very powerful. Here is how I think I would handle what you are experiencing. Take Leeroy out on a long line so he can potty with a bit of space near him. When he finishes his potty, call him to you. If he doesn't come use the line to "reel" him in and tell him "uh oh I said come." Don't have a party for a recall unless he came quickly on his own. If you had to reel him in tell him good ask for a sit, give a little petting and release him but don't let him go too far or for very long then call him again and let him know there is a cookie. Give it for coming quickly from a short distance. Don't allow him to fail his recall in other words. When he comes in on his own all the time ask for a quick sit, give a cookie and release him to run like a crazy man, still on the long line (until his recall is super reliable). While you are working on the recall reliability add a command to going potty. Take him when he is really likely to need to relieve himself and only use the command to potty when you know he will go and that will get him to go quickly. Once he potties on command and recalls well then you can lost the long line. Your long term picture is send him out and give the potty command. Tell him good and call him. Then give a quick pet, a cookie or a quick round of play with a flirt pole then release him to run off the crazy energy. Then when you need him to come back in because of cold or other weather issues call him back and bring him in the house. So you use a combination of correcting information and different kinds of rewards for things you want to reinforce to extinguish things you don't.

Here is a situation that I use as an analogy for dog training. A 4 year old child you are invested in caring for is about to run into a busy street to retrieve a ball. What is your response? A. From a distance, "Oh Johnny please don't do that. Cars could hurt you and that is a really bad idea (said calmly and rationally)" or B. As you run up to the child and grab him by the arm to restrain him "Johnny stop right where you are right now (said with emphasis and a hint of panic)." While a 4 year old can understand that a car could hurt him is he going to pay attention to a mild delivery of that information while worrying about getting his ball back? Probably not, so you need to convey urgency with your delivery of a quick correction rather than explaining. Right now Leeroy is like that crazy little kid trying to get his ball back when he is outside and you are standing near the back door saying something to the effect of "hey Leeroy if you would be so king please stop running around like that and go potty. If you do I will give you a cookie if you come back and come in the house where it will be not nearly so much fun as eating snow." What he is hearing from the point of hey Leeroy onwards is blah blah blah......


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

I think I need to explain a few things... although we do shower him with love in general, we are very firm when he is misbehaving. I've also been doing everything I can to keep my cool. We do not treat him like a king when he misbehaves. We made the mistake of not realizing how naughty certain behaviors were because he treats it like a puppy situation. But now we no longer allow it. 

I want to also add that when we take him out to the pet store or in the car he has to wait for our cues getting in and out, I have him do occasional sits and look at me in the stores, everyone remarks on how incredibly well behaved he is. He has leash pulling behavior but I'll be working on that. He never bites, jumps, or barks when we're out or when we have people over. The only time he barks is a quieter one when someone (not us) is coming in the door and he can't see them, but he stays back and sits on his own and is calm.

Also part of not being able to stay outside long during potties is in deep winter it can get to -30 or more which is pretty uncomfortable. 

I'll be taking him out less. He does go poo 2 times a day. His first being in the morning for his first potty. 

So my update since my last post...

I took initiative on the short leash at first and took him out. I made him sit and be calm before we went out and before I put the leash on. I stood dead in my tracks when he'd pull so he wouldn't pull me down the icy stairs. When he'd start being crazy, nipping or jumping, I'd say down or no bite and then have him sit, look at me, and be calm. Due to our training in the house and when we're out at stores etc, he sits really well. I'd then treat him calmly. But when we'd start walking again, if he misbehaved a few more times even after a few more sits, we went back in the house for a time out. I wouldn't interact with him or anything... Just sit in a chair with his leash on. I'd wait for him to calm himself and lay down and after a few minutes we'd try again. We did this about 4 times but then he gave signs that his paws were uncomfortable with the cold so we stopped.

I then later used the extender leash. Same as before. But I kept it short until I got to his potty area in the back and then stood back and let the leash go a bit. I let him sniff around and he went much better. When he does go, I praise him and tell him come, he comes over almost right away and I have him sit and look at me for a treat. 

And yes he went poo with the extender leash.

Did this again one last time just before bed and also this morning. He was even calmer. No more jumping. At least not for now. Also no biting. Same as before, I have him sit and be calm as I put the leash on and take it off, and I have him do a come, sit, look at me as praise when he goes. I then treat him calmly.

I do hope to get a flirt pole soon. I am going to start doing indoor focus attention to lead up to loose leash walking outdoors. I will probably continue to use a leash in the yard as winter lasts 9 months of the year here and we get moose in our yard in as little as a month from now.

As far as abuse. The first owners.. whatever. I don't know them or exactly what they did, just general stories. They live up here in Alaska somewhere. The second ones unfortunately were my large family who live less than 40 minutes away. The main one who owned him has come over a few times since we adopted him and they have a flippant attitude toward their dogs and our stance against how they treat their animals. So it makes for a frustrating situation that is not easy to get away from. 

I've had to re-home pets before, I don't see that happening with him. 

Anyway thanks all for your advice. Stepping it up on my own on my end is working really well. I've also told the kids that for now, until he is really good at loose leash walking and potty behavior, the kids aren't handling those two things. That way there's not danger or inconsistency. 

Oh.. one last thing. The way I do his mat training and do nothing training is essentially as described. During mat training he stays there til we're done. Do nothing is him on a leash with me in a chair and the leash is kept super short. I also do crate training so he knows to be calm and sit as I open the door. He actually never fusses or paws at the door anymore when we goo to let him out, and I never use his crate as punishment.

So yeah.. those are the latest updates. 

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Lily, he used to go potty exactly like that where we could stand at the door, tell him to go and he'd go. For whatever reason he started getting wild and not going at all, and so that's why I took initiative and I'm using the leash.

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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

I come from Herding and Gun Dog breeds - their adolescence is nothing for the faint of heart. Somebody once described having a young Gun Dog - a German Shorthaired Pointer to having a "Ferrari in the kitchen". I still think that him being "grounded" without having a physical outlet is part of the underlying cause of craziness. Especially since I remember that you said he spend a lot of his early months crated too much. I know that the tide is turning on "a tired dog is a good dog" but I still believe it truly is fitting for some. And in my case it has been applicable to every dog I have owned. I think before one expects any sort of angelic behavior or focus a dog HAS to be given freedom to just stretch its legs and burn off the crazies. I may be in the minority and I admit freely that I have seen other people's dogs where I was told that it does not apply to them - I have seen these very dogs throw tracking test after tracking test - so there is that... Louie's morning zoomies full of exuberance are an example for me. He NEEDS to stretch his legs - explore his yard and pee (unless he forgets to pee - brain is still waking up and the zoomies are more important) so I just let him get his stretching done and then he is ready to start his day and receive commands and be responsive - but the running is his version of a morning espresso without which he cannot function. There are ways to burn off energy that can have rules - retrieving, jogging, biking or bike joring, ski joring, tracking. All full of rules but more energy burning style. Again for me a tired dog is a good dog has applied to all dogs I have owned....


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

One thing that can happen with re-homed dogs is that they try to be on their best behavior when they first arrive to avoid whatever negatives that were aimed at them in their previous home when they did undesirable things. Once they start to trust their new environment they feel freer to show all sorts of things that are either crazy or annoying or destructive because they are trusting their new environment a bit more. I have seen re-homed dogs offer up new surprise behaviors after as long as a year in their new homes. I apologize if anything I said above made you feel defensive about what you are doing with Leeroy. I think you are doing wonderfully. Sometimes when I talk about certain aspects of a person's questions I am thinking about the broad audience of people who might be searching on a topic and not just the person who immediately asked about something. Keep up the good work and by the time you finally get to nicer weather and the moose are out of the yard he will be way better at so many things you will have forgotten about these crazies.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Oh I know. I do think that a lot of his crazies are his new confidence that he was never allowed to display and also his teenager mind. 

Aside from crazies in the yard he is generally really well behaved. You can tell he's learning and that he WANTS to learn (which I am grateful for). He's really just being a teenager in the yard and I'm trying to be very patient with it while still teaching him manners.

It's been a rough two months with a lot of no-sleep nights for me and training and a sudden change of schedule, all of that just catches up to me sometimes.  But I'm determined.

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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Right now he gets more wild when he is free to be wild in the yard. That's why I'm focusing on manners and the ability to relax on his own and the impulse training, and then moving to loose leash training. Lots of focus in all of that. We're taking it a day at a time. 

Thanks all for the help, insight, and sharing your stories. 

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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

It sounds like you are on the right track. I also didn't want to sound ill toward you as I do think you are doing great with him. A lot of my response is also general. I have trained many a dog in my past and some are just different. Heck I still have a long way to go with the one I have now. It sounds like you have a real handle on him indoors and now that you will use the leash and incorporate what you done inside I am sure that unwanted behavior will get better. I also keep my dogs fairly structured. There are times after we are thru that I will let them get their zooms out, outdoors while I sit and watch. Our boxer will run from one side of the yard to the other back and forth and when thru will come and sit with me. My poodle is still learning and will do the same then run behind a bush to pull up weeds or chew on a ball. I take the flirt stick out, he come running when I call and now will sit. I let him chase it a few times leash him then we come inside. Yes you are dealing with very cold weather that we never have here. Moose Ican't imagine one in my yard, the coyotes we have can be a pain but at least they run off fairly quickly.


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## meljen (Sep 10, 2018)

Yeah the moose are so beautiful and I'm honored that the mothers like to use our yard but now with a dog I am a little leery, lol! My cousin's dog was trampled by one. So I want to be very careful. 

The leash is working REALLY well for the yard. He hardly jumps at all. He also already knows to sit once we come in so I can take his leash off. I know we'll have some days better than others but it is definitely catching on. 

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