# See post #49 for explanation: OT posts/Newborn Help



## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Tortoise, if the pup can be saved it should, as long as it is visually complete. Just because a pup is the runt or not doing well at the start does not mean it cannot develop into a healthy beautiful adult of normal size and muscle tone. I've seen runts develop into champion dogs that go on to sire generation upon generation of healthy, perfect progeny. My wheaten champ (Westminster BoB in the 80s) was the runt and had to be handfed. Every pup he sired, and even his grandkids were perfect. To do otherwise is inhumane. 

It is a function of postiion in the womb, oftentimes, that the size of the pup; the largest, most vigorous pups in a litter are frequently not the best ones.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> "Helping" puppies is a disservice to the breed. Natural selection protects vigor. I worked at a kennel that destroyed their lines over a couple decades by helping puppies. They regret it. They were always aware of it, but push comes to shove the kennel owner is a softhearted man.
> 
> IF you must "help" them, mark them in a way that they cannot be confused with littermates and "cull" them out of the breed by spay/neuter.
> 
> Puppies die. Even helped puppies die. Even human babies with our extreme medical interventions die. It is not your failure, it is simply how life works.


 Such a sad and unfortunate way to view things.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Look at big picture over decades. Seeing how it affected one breeding program is enough to demonstrate.

I can tube feed a puppy with my eyes close and I've got high calorie puppy formula practically tattooed on my brain. Then watching the helped puppies grow up and be not quite right. They were helped, then spayed/neutered and given to pet homes.

I bred rabbits, very successfully because of heavy culling. Sure I tried to help an orphaned litter but realized my foolishness after the third orphaned litter and more wisely culled the mom.

If you're not making it stronger, you're doing damage to it. Some of the best dogs come from "bad" places that still cull. There's this BYB of sorts with highly sought after dogs for agility, the dogs are out on a farm with no help. If a puppy is not smart it will become lunch for wildlife or be crushed by farm machinery. Kind? No. Good for the breed? Heck yeah. Another extremely successful breeder has his bitches outside and never interferes with them. He finds out what the litter produces when the puppies are old enough to walk outside the dog house. This is a European working dog mentality. And their dogs have exceptional vigor. 

Breeding shouldn't be about keeping puppies alive to make money. Make the breed better, healthier, stronger than how you found it.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Tortoise, I think we are united in wanted the breed to be strong and healthy but that does not mean we have to resort to drowning puppies. Also a slow start possibly from a crowed womb does not necessarily equate to lifelong issues or poor breeding stock. This view seems unduly harsh. I have family that own farms and I understand the importance of selective breeding but even myuncle the pig farmer would not cull a piglet for those reasons. Often these "runts" get tended to by the kids and end up winning lots of 4Hawards.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

*sigh*

Y'all know that phenotype and genotype are not the same??! Just neuter out non-vigorous puppies if you really must help them to protect the breed as a whole. It's not so much what that puppy _is_ but what it carries - genetically. Maybe it got the short end of the placenta, but it's not worth harming the future of the breed by breeding weak puppies.


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## Sawyersmomma (May 28, 2012)

Tortoise, no one is suggesting to breed that dog in the future. In fact, people were saying not to. It won't hurt the "future generation" of dogs by trying to help this one out.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Tort, I agree not to help a pup that will require help it's whole life. But the runt that I raised did not stay small and weak, it just needed a bit of help in it's first few weeks of life. It was a great, healthy , smart dog every bit as good as the other dogs that my husband kept because they were the pick of the litter. We all want to better the breed.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> .
> 
> Tortoise...if a human baby struggled, should hospital staff just ignore it and let it die...Man...that is cold!


Why do you think humans have so many genetic health problems?  If you think dogs are unsound... people.... wow.... people. :lol: 

Seriously, though back to dogs. Protect the breed by culling. Culling is removing from breeding by killing OR NEUTERING. If you must save puppies, then neuter them to protect the breed. 

I have not said to drown puppies or make them suffer. Those were other people's suggestions / interpretations. 

If you don't help a puppy you have it humanely euthanized before it starves and suffers. If you help a puppy you have it neutered. Either way is humane, ethical, and protects the breed. Every breeder has the choice of which is right for him/her on a personal level.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Tortoise...I find some of your comments extremely cold and unsympathetic. I am not looking for an argument here, but this person asked for help to save the puppy, not cull the puppy.

And YES!!! If we were as careful about breeding ourselves as some breeders are about their litters, there would likely be 1/10th the people on the planet, and MD, CF and other illnesses would not exist. So we are not impervious to genetic ailments.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

And I find most of the posts here offensively overly emotional and irrational, but I'm not complaining.

Yes, she asked for help to save the puppy, which is why it's so important to ask "SHOULD you save the puppy?" Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. (That quote applies to everything, not just fading puppies).

She stated that these puppies will be effectively culled out by non-breeding contracts, so my concern is relieved. And whatever she's doing is working, so her original question is answered too.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Tortoise...
I also, do not want to insult anyone on this forum. But, the breeder is fully aware that if this pup survives, it will be spayed at the appropriate age.

Why did you even enter the discussion of culling? I think everyone on this forum would agree that if the pup has serious internal problems, the humane thing to do is to have the pup put down by a vet.

However, to help a weak pet to survive is not wrong. I am sure that if this pup survives, and is spayed, there will be some dog owner that will have a life long friend....

Why do you say that those on here that value the life of an animal "offensively over emotional and irrational"?

I believe that yes, she SHOULD try to save this little pup, assuming the pup does not have internal injuries...and she will find that out in time.

I do think you are are cold and unfeeling person.....and I am surprised you even have animals.....


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

dogs123 said:


> Tortoise...
> 
> Why did you even enter the discussion of culling? I think everyone on this forum would agree that if the pup has serious internal problems, the humane thing to do is to have the pup put down by a vet.
> 
> ...


umm... the first one I answered in the post directly above yours. 

The second one is not stricly limited to this conversation, but this forum as a whole. But I'm also aware I'm on a PET forum, not my typical working dog group of people, so I accept and ignore it. The price to pay to find poodel-specific grooming information here. I was responding to someone else's comment - returning the favor, if you will.

I will not apologize for having a funtional left brain and using it. I don't have pets. I have a working dog. If he becomes unable to dog his job, he will be put in a pet home and I will find a dog that can do the job. I don't love my dog, and it's not a crime. He has a far better life than most of the "loved" dogs in this country. 

Dogs are not dispensible. They are animals to be respected for what they are (functional working animals), not what our culture has turned them into in the last 50 years (emotional attachment items). Dogs are a uniquely HUMAN CREATION. They were selected and bred for purposes like hunting, guarding, protecting, herding, and carrying loads. In our culture, failure to respect the dog's perspective and will creates overpopulation and poor breeding practices. Dog that do exactly what they were bred to do are dumped in shelters. Then because of the emotional attachment status and the effect that novelty has on our brains (increases serotonin), people go to great lengths to breed and save the unusual.

So now we have the healthy, stable, purposeful dogs being killed and the genetic freaks are labeled as cute or helpless and are being bred. 

Talking about cultural phenomon here, not the OP.

Since there are no medical devices or medications that can do what my working dog does, my life depends on being able to find good dogs in the future. Our society has destroyed the dog in the last 50 years. By the time I am nearing retirement will I be able to find a working dog? Will there be any healthy dogs left?

The value of life is clearly subjective and impossible to answer. But I suspect others here are basing their thoughts on their emotional attachments to their own dog instead of the larger cultural patterns. In the USA, the dog's life has little to no value. Millions are unwanted and destroyed. More than that are abused, starved, and abandoned. Or worse, are literally fed to death because of an owner's blind (and sometimes pathological) emotional attachment. In the USA, a dog's value is clearly only convenience. If it makes the owner feel good it has a shelter. If it is inconvenient to the owner or makes the owner feel bad it ie abandoned or killed.

It's in bad taste to say you don't want to insult someone and then insult them. Especially when you haven't bothered to read the post you're responding to.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Your partner is a vet? Does he share your views and opinions? Do his clients know this is how he feels about their beloved pet? 
YIKES!!!


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

tortoise said:


> And I find most of the posts here offensively overly emotional and irrational, but I'm not complaining.
> 
> Yes, she asked for help to save the puppy, which is why it's so important to ask "SHOULD you save the puppy?" Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. (That quote applies to everything, not just fading puppies).
> 
> She stated that these puppies will be effectively culled out by non-breeding contracts, so my concern is relieved. And whatever she's doing is working, so her original question is answered too.


The OP also asked in her opening post that if you had nothing constructive to say regarding providing her with help on how to save this puppy that you keep your comments to yourself. I guess you missed that part.

I would suggest that anyone in doubt of this posters mind set on all things related to dogs do a search and read about training a very young pup - her working dog - not to whine with the aid of an e-collar, or how even the question of trainers being require to meet certification standards to train dogs is a ludicrous suggestion.

As with everything, once you so some research, you can easily realize that you have to take some things with a grain of salt because of where they originate.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Your partner is a vet? Does he share your views and opinions? Do his clients know this is how he feels about their beloved pet?
> YIKES!!!


:lol: He nearly crucified me for wanting to OFA my puppy and not neuter him if he was OFA excellent - because he was born with an umbilical hernia. I was thinking that in a breed where OFA excellent is rare, an umbilical hernia would be asmall price to pay and could be bred out later. He was in agronomy (genetics) before he went to vet school. When it comes to selective breeding I am passionate and he is militant. Yes, he saves puppies as he is obligated to. I don't know his feelings about that, never occurred to me to ask. It doesn't matter his feelings about it - it's his JOB.

We (the staff) conceal how we feel about individual animals. It doesn't matter how we feel. Every animal gets the same standard of care no matter breed or behavior. The animals are (usually) special to the owner, but that doesn't mean we are forming attachments to them or having emotional responses. If we do have a special affection for one animal we can't show it because if the next client detects that their pet isn't getting the exact same response they will be hurt/offended. Likewise if an animals is particularly obnoxious or dangerous and we dislike working with it, we can't show it. 

My fiance is particularly consistent. Even when the dog has bitten him multiple times and it's taking 2 techs to restraint it, it gets the same calm and reassuring reaction as the dogs that are perfectly mannered. Once the dog is gone there might be some cuss words though.  Detached, self-control. I love hime because he can be bleeding and continue working without missing a beat while cooing pet names and phrases like "easy there, sweetpea".

I will objectively report my clients' pets behavior. This means that I WILL tell them that their pet is stubborn, aggressive, nervous, etc. But at the same time, I'm not having an emotional reaction to it. I have quite a reputation for taming aggressive dogs because I can stay detached and not overreact. Do I *like* the dog? Nope. But how is that relevant?

Detachment is an excellent quality to cultivate.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cavon said:


> The OP also asked in her opening post that if you had nothing constructive to say regarding providing her with help on how to save this puppy that you keep your comments to yourself. I guess you missed that part.
> 
> I would suggest that anyone in doubt of this posters mind set on all things related to dogs do a search and read about training a very young pup - her working dog - not to whine with the aid of an e-collar, or how even the question of trainers being require to meet certification standards to train dogs is a ludicrous suggestion.
> 
> As with everything, once you so some research, you can easily realize that you have to take some things with a grain of salt because of where they originate.


You might also want to check the thread where I believe she states her dog was kicked across the room for putting its mouth on her child.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

....or how caging a cat was a good tool to use to try to train your agressive dog NOT to attack

take it where it comes from, folks

OH! if you can catch a feral cat for this exercise, that's even better. I mean, who would miss a feral cat if anything hapenned?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

And in that search you will find when I tell people to NOT use correction, to learn to play with their dogs, to learn to reward their dogs in an effective way. You'll come up with a lot of "thanks" and a lot of thank yous too.

This is holistic dog training. Balancing the total risk of the behavior with the total impact of training. The same method ranges from appropriate to cruel given the circumstances or the dog's temperament. No one-size-fits all. No one method, one piece of equipment. No one answer.

Funny how my writing gets different responses from my videos. Because in writing it's easy to assume that one statement is blanket, when it is intended for a specific dog in a specific situation. And if it's intepretted that way, without the WHOLE picture, you'd assume my dog is a miserable creature.

But when I post videos, I get comments on the postitive interaction, my dog's great attitude. I'm a holistic trainer which means you have to look at all the posts to understand. You'll see the similar situations get dramatically different answers - because the dogs in question are different. It might appear contradictory, but it isn't.

Quit skimming, it will mess with your head. You'll need to read every word to understand.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

Oh, I have no comprehension issues, I can assure you of that; and as I was involved in multiple threads I can assure you that I was not skimming.

I encourage every member to go and read all of the posts by this member from beginning to end and then if you can still bring yourselves to do it - I could not - go ahead and watch the videos.

Furthermore, I can conceive of NO Circumstance when "CRUEL" should be part of a training regimen, regardless of the circumstances or the dog's temperament.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

yup, animal cuelty at its best. Dare you. :aetsch:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Detachment is an excellent quality to cultivate.


Sigh. Another sad and unfortunate way to view things.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Y'all know that phenotype and genotype are not the same??! Just neuter out non-vigorous puppies if you really must help them to protect the breed as a whole. It's not so much what that puppy _is_ but what it carries - genetically. Maybe it got the short end of the placenta, but it's not worth harming the future of the breed by breeding weak puppies.


A comment such as, "How great that you saved this living creature's life! Hey, you might want to think twice about breeding that dog in the future because my personal view is that this dog could have undesirable phenotypes that could potentially be harmful to the longevity to the breed." probably would have sufficed and gotten your point across in a much less cruel way. But I have a feeling you might like to come off the way you come off.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

To the OP: you sound like a really dedicated, caring breeder. I am sorry someone was rude to you.

My pet bitch was the runt of her litter, although she didn't struggle like this, and was just smaller. She grew to be a normal size and is so far healthy. Runts are usually just ova that the bitch released later in the heat, so the other zygotes got a headstart. A runt can still make a wonderful pet, and runts who have been given special attention like this can grow up to be really loving, people-oriented dogs. I hope your girl makes it.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I do think my comment about drowning puppies was over the top and I do apologize Tortoise. It was especially inappropriate when I asked for you to discuss the issue without resorting to inflamatory things like "sigh" and stating that you have a functional left brain cell (implying we do not). I do think CMs point is very germane. The point could have been made without being offensive. I also understand your point about what I think we all would consider animal abuse in this country raising overfed, nuerotic and untrained dogs and just letting them lose when they are no longer cute or they are too much trouble. I also understand why a certain amount of detachment from animals may be necessary. The piglets that my uncle raised we ate. This does not preclude loving your service animal however. The dogs that another uncle used to help with ranch work had jobs but were loved nevertheless. I do think many of your points have value but frankly after I have read some of your training posts I kind of brace myself when I see a post by you. I find the whole idea of shock collars on puppies abhorant for one. I considered sending you a pm but since I made the drowning comment on open forum I thought I should also apologize on the open forum. CMs comment could very well apply to me and the way I expressed myself.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

tortoise said:


> I'm a holistic trainer which means you have to look at all the posts to understand. QUOTE]
> 
> I forgot to ask you earlier when you became a "holistic" trainer.
> 
> Did you have to pass a ceritfication exam to use that title, or did you award it to yourself based on your extensive reading and video review, as you yourself advised were your qualification standards for claiming to be a trainer at all?


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

cavon said:


> Did you have to pass a ceritfication exam to use that title, or did you award it to yourself based on your extensive reading and video review, as you yourself advised were your qualification standards for claiming to be a trainer at all?


'Holistic' in my understanding generally means someone has no formal qualifications. An holistic doctor does not have a degree in medicine; an holistic nutritionist is not a qualified dietitian. Often people who self-designate as 'holistic' are quacks and charlatans.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I am not a moderator... but if I was, I might pop on here to remind everyone to stay on topic (helpful advice for the OP who is trying to save a fading puppy) and take the rest of it to PMs. 

Although I get why everyone is all riled up, the original topic of the thread is becoming rather lost and I always hate to see that happen.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Well, I think there are some quacks and charlatans hanging around forums these days....guess just like everything else in life, you need to become an informed participant and "check your facts" that's all, then it puts everything in perspective. I think the O/P was looking for some compassionate and informative input.......sorry it didn't go that way.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm a person who looks at the "whole" situation: holistic. More correctly is cynopraxic, but I got tired of explaining what it means.

It's not any more incorrect or offensive than a trained labeling him/herself "a clicker trainer" or by any other method.

So if I am training tricks for fun, I'm offlead using clicker and treats exclusively. 

But if I'm teaching a dog not to bolt across the road, I'll use correction. A small negative correction - or even a big one - is more kind than letting the dog get smeared across the road. (No one has every disagreed on that).

In every interaction, a holistic dog training philosophy is looking at the whole situation to decide what will be most effective AND most appropriate. Rather than subscribing to one method, it is learning from every method (sometimes learning what not to do!), taking the pieces that apply in different situations.

I give dogs freedom to make choices. I teach communication and consequences (consequences can be good, this isn't punitive by definition). 

When I cue my dog to sit, I do it without duress or restraint. If my dogs sits it is rewarded. If he does not he is corrected. His correction is gentle upward and backward pressure on the bottom of his chin - technically molding but also positie punishment because I and ADDing something to the environement that REDUCES the behavior. 

Now *I* have to make a choice on how to move forward depending on the circumstances. If I'm at home I might drill it with Tom Rose's "Three and a Free" technique. Or if my puppy's attitude is less-enthusiastic than usual I might drill it with HIGH-VALUE reward. Or if we're working and I don't have time I can leave it and move on (and make a mental note to drill it in the future if he fails to sit more than once). My reaction depends on my dog's attitude and the circumstances.

To be a holistic trainer is to be a thinking trainer, adapting readily and always learning, studying. Finding mentors with a range of styles. Recognizing that what works for one dog will not for another. And always coming back to the truth of changing behavior: Reward the good. Ignore the bad. Correct the dangerous and defiant.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I moderate a non-dog forum. I would have locked it after post #29. Downhill since then. :angel:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

"But if I'm teaching a dog not to bolt across the road, I'll use correction. A small negative correction - or even a big one - is more kind than letting the dog get smeared across the road. (No one has every disagreed on that)."

Unless it was a runt that needed help when it was born and should have not had any human intervention to save it in the first place?

To the OP...how is your little one today? Is she still hanging in there? Has she gained any weight?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> "But if I'm teaching a dog not to bolt across the road, I'll use correction. A small negative correction - or even a big one - is more kind than letting the dog get smeared across the road. (No one has every disagreed on that)."
> 
> Unless it was a runt that needed help when it was born and should have not had any human intervention to save it in the first place?



???

Please explain, I can't follow your logic.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

tort, you may have alot of knowledge, but when you say that you don't "love" your dogs, I stop listening. Can't you have a "loved" working dog? My husband has English Setters, they work , but they are very much loved.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> tort, you may have alot of knowledge, but when you say that you don't "love" your dogs, I stop listening. Can't you have a "loved" working dog? My husband has English Setters, they work , but they are very much loved.


Umm, it's not a choice. Just a pesky attachment disorder. Don't be offended my health - or lack of. Doesn't mean there isn't respect and appreciation.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

tortoise said:


> ???
> 
> Please explain, I can't follow your logic.


Well, you made it abundantly clear how you feel about puppies being assisted at birth, so I just wondered if a puppy were helped at birth then later got hit by a car, would that be okay? Would this be considered culling?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, you made it abundantly clear how you feel about puppies being assisted at birth, so I just wondered if a puppy were helped at birth then later got hit by a car, would that be okay? Would this be considered culling?


Technically? Culling is removing from the gene pool. Isn't neutering a little kinder?


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I have not been on for a while, and I could not even get all the way through this thread before commenting.

Tort: If you do not love your dog (could I have even read that correctly), would you please, please, please give him to someone who will? Poodles have a huge capacity to love and will do so, oftentimes when not even deserved. The poodles deserve to have it returned. Working dog or not, they deserve to be loved, at the very, very least. Please allow this dog to go to someone who will care for him properly (which you likely care for his physical needs), and return his love and affection. 

I hope that I read that wrong, or it was a typo or something. If you truly did say that you don't love your dog, then I can more clearly understand how you say the things that you say to the people here (you know, the ones who have the capacity for love)? Dogs do have emotional needs, and most well-adjusted humans do, too.

And, regarding the person who bred their dogs this way...



> He finds out what the litter produces when the puppies are old enough to walk outside the dog house.


When did this loser check inside the dog house for the dead puppies? How long would they be there, if he didn't know they were there? Or, were they just eaten? I guess he must have just told prospective owners, "These are the survivers of my last breeding. Only the mother knows how many were in the litter."


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I can assure you my dog is perfectly fine, much better off than most of the "loved" dogs in the USA. He has more than everything he needs.

You can stop implying that people affected by mental illness are not capable of having dogs - you would be insulting MANY people on this forum and millions of others.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Definition of cull
verb
[with object]
*1 reduce the population of (a wild animal) by selective slaughter: some of the culled deer will be used for scientific research (as noun culling) kangaroo culling
* send (an inferior or surplus farm animal) to be slaughtered: unproductive animals can be identified and culled
*2 select from a large quantity; obtain from a variety of sources: anecdotes culled from Greek and Roman history
* archaic pick (flowers or fruit): (as adjective culled) fresh culled daffodils
noun
* a selective slaughter of animals: fishermen are to campaign for a seal cull
* an inferior or surplus livestock animal selected for culling: he keeps his female calves and sells only male calves and herd culls [as modifier]: a cull cow


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I'm glad Rowan isn't around to read this thread. She would stomp her computer.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

(Deleted due to off-topic nature)


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Honestly people, take it offline or start a seperate chain we can all ignore to discuss whether to cull/not cull and other offtopic posts. 

To the OP, how are the puppies? Doing better? I hope so. In the beginning there were some posts that were hopefully helpful. Not so much later. 

Please let us know how you and the puppies are doing.

Best wishes coming your way. Sorry I don't have any suggestions.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Until this year I worked in a special needs school with kids who were severely and profoundly handicapped- with issues that were so shocking and debilitating that often visitors to our school would leave in tears at what they had seen..More than once, I heard the comment that “wouldn’t it have been better to have let those children die at birth- why do we bother to save them?” What do you answer a person who has expressed an honestly felt emotion, but who doesn’t see the value in the life that these children have? My answer was always the same: “Life is precious.” To this I add that all life is precious, it doesn’t matter if the life is human or animal, we show compassion and affirm our humanity by helping that little puppy to maintain life. I would do exactly the same, because I believe in Albert Schweitzer's philosophy:

"Ethics is nothing other than Reverence for Life. Reverence for Life affords me my fundamental principle of morality, namely, that good consists in maintaining, assisting and enhancing life, and to destroy, to harm or to hinder life is evil."


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Hope the pup is doing better.



tortoise said:


> I can assure you my dog is perfectly fine, much better off than most of the "loved" dogs in the USA. He has more than everything he needs.
> 
> You can stop implying that people affected by mental illness are not capable of having dogs - you would be insulting MANY people on this forum and millions of others.


Surely this is a troll? If you don't love your dog, why did you get one? Was a machine to serve the same purpose just too expensive, and the inconvenience of having to feed and care for another living being made up for the savings in the bank? Dogs and humans evolved together -- it's a special type of biological relationship called symbiosis -- we are intended by our nature to love each other. Love is a natural, evolutionary strategy that allows social creatures to survive and thrive. Someone who loves their dog is no more mentally ill than someone who loves their spouse or their child.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

zyrcona said:


> Hope the pup is doing better.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely this is a troll? If you don't love your dog, why did you get one? Was a machine to serve the same purpose just too expensive, and the inconvenience of having to feed and care for another living being made up for the savings in the bank? Dogs and humans evolved together -- it's a special type of biological relationship called symbiosis -- we are intended by our nature to love each other. Love is a natural, evolutionary strategy that allows social creatures to survive and thrive. Someone who loves their dog is no more mentally ill than someone who loves their spouse or their child.


Wow, you're having some reading comprehension issues today. Harsh, yeah, but you NOT reading what wrote and then acting like you are some supreme being isn't really so sweet either. (hmm..., that's the edited version, FYI)

I have an attachment disorder, I'm not choosing to not be attached to my dog it's a biologic incapability.

I am disabled, my dog is a service dog. There are no medical devices that can do what my dog does, there is no substitute. Even with my spare-no-expense attitude towards him, my dog is a heck of a lot cheaper than additional medication, losing my job, my house, and being hospitalized. My dog's current replacement value is about $10K and his actual financial value is about $1,100 per month as far as how much I can work and how much I'm not spending on medication. 

His is valued, respected, appreciated, but because of my health issues, loving him is not a possibility.

Troll, no. *Highly offended with your completely innappropriate personal insult of my disability*, yes. My emotional capability has nothing to do with the care my dog receives. How many people say they love their dog and then abuse it? Millions. So why have a hissy fit over me openly stating my limitations while my dog has everything he could ever need or want?


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

You did not explicitly state the nature of your disability, so I fail to see how when I was not aware of this I can make insults out of information I don't have. I assumed remarks you had made about attachment disorders and mental illness were attacks on other people who formed close bonds with their dogs. Nevertheless, I find the phrasing of your posts on this topic to be rather incendiary, and, yes, trollish. I would expect this kind of approach from someone who wanted to goad others into replying in such a way so that the initiator could claim offence.


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

Oh for Pete's sakes. People. Discussing mental illness in this chain is inappropriate and needs to be taken offline. If you have an issue with someone's comments to the extent aired in this chain, take it to Private Messages. Have some discernment and compassion for the OP who asked for HELP. She also requested if you couldn't give advice, to keep your comments to yourselves. 

I am watching this thread to find out about the puppies. I would appreciate it if you want to discuss these other items, either take it off line or start a different chain. 

I don't post very often and frankly this chain reflects why.

Thank you.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

*Off-topic posts from Newborn Help thread*

This thread contains posts "culled" from a different thread that went sadly off topic. There are some interesting and differing points of view - and some thought that went into members' comments, so instead of deleting everything - those comments have been moved here. 

Please keep your comments cordial and respectful - or they WILL be deleted.

Barb


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

*attempt*

trying to merge content


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

why this turtle hasn't been banned is beyond me.

misinformation, mean spirited comments, etc. don't get it. don't get it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

faerie said:


> why this turtle hasn't been banned is beyond me.
> 
> misinformation, mean spirited comments, etc. don't get it. don't get it.


I could not agree more Faerie! This has gone on long enough!


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I often see what Dr. Phil refers to as a "right fighter". Not so often actually involved with the issues at hand, but making the point that they are totally and undeniably "right" about things. 

http://storage.cloversites.com/outpostreformedministries/documents/Right Fighting.pdf

When they try to have a teensie, tiny wee bit of humility; I often find value even in the postings of a "right fighter". We just all have to realize that we cannot be the end-all authority every single time on every single topic. And, I think most of us know this; as well as that what works for one of us, may not work for all of us or for every dog.

Dr. Phil always says, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Ladywolfe, thanks for that interesting link about "right-fighters." Though this might not be particularly germane to the conversation in this thread, I will freely and fully admit that I myself used to be a right-fighter and still struggle with that tendency. The section about "What Lies Behind the Right-Fighter's Behavior" could have been written as a personality profile for me.

The "good" news is that I managed to p*** off so many people off and make so many people I cared about thoroughly fed up with me (oh, and therapy was involved, too) that at last I was able to step away from the need to always be right. I'm 43 years old now, so this was not a short journey!

I have learned to either keep completely out of conversations about topics that are particularly passionate for me, or at least to couch my words in terms that admit that shades of grey and opinions besides mine exist. Courtesy in response helps, too. If dangerous ideas are flying about that really must be addressed, I've learned that it is even possible to be firm and have one's message remembered without being hurtful about it.

Just some thoughts!

--Q


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

TBH, I find this thread rather sickening, and I really don't want to get into it much. My opinion wouldn't matter anyways. However, I do have a question. Tortoise, how is that you can say this:



> I *love* hime because he can be bleeding and continue working without missing a beat while cooing pet names and phrases like "easy there, sweetpea".


 (emphasis mine) in reference to your fiancee, but then go on to say that you have a detachment disorder and therefore cannot love your dog?

And implying that because the rest of us DO love our dogs and like to try save weak puppies we don't have a "functional left brain" is extremely offensive. Just because I have an emotional attachment to my dogs doesn't mean I'm not rational with them.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> TBH, I find this thread rather sickening, and I really don't want to get into it much. My opinion wouldn't matter anyways. However, I do have a question. Tortoise, how is that you can say this:
> 
> (emphasis mine) in reference to your fiancee, but then go on to say that you have a detachment disorder and therefore cannot love your dog?
> 
> And implying that because the rest of us DO love our dogs and like to try save weak puppies we don't have a "functional left brain" is extremely offensive. Just because I have an emotional attachment to my dogs doesn't mean I'm not rational with them.


Just 'cause I love him doesn't mean that my relationship is not strongly affected by it. There's a pattern of idealizing and devaluing, but I've been in therapy for long enough to start to get away from it. My symptoms of 4 disorders make me a mixed bag - you really don't need to try to figure it out. They are episodic and therefore contradictory. You will make your head hurt. Just know that when it comes to personal comments about myself, at the time I write it it is true.

I've had a lot of dogs. I've been too committment-phobic to have my own dog, so for 9 years (with one exception) I have not had a dog for myself. I've been training other people's dogs in my own home. Before I started into service dogs, I had dogs for an average of... guessing 4 months. Long enough to train, change the problem behaviors and return to their homes or new homes. After working with service dogs I would have a dog for about a year. I've had MY-my dog, my mpoo, for 6 months. That's a little soon to attach to a dog anyways!

Today, I do not love my dog. I respect him and give him a good life. Maybe someday I'll get attached. Who knows. And WHY would you care about my emotion towards MY dog?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I have always believed in this quote:

But who can distinguish between falling in love and imagining falling in love? Even genuinely falling in love is an act of the imagination.

— John Irving

Some of us, I guess, don't let our imaginations go far... some of us do. 

Condemning someone who does not believe that they love their dogs is certainly futile to say the least. Maybe counter-productive too.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

tortoise said:


> Just 'cause I love him doesn't mean that my relationship is not strongly affected by it. There's a pattern of idealizing and devaluing, but I've been in therapy for long enough to start to get away from it. My symptoms of 4 disorders make me a mixed bag - you really don't need to try to figure it out. They are episodic and therefore contradictory. You will make your head hurt. Just know that when it comes to personal comments about myself, at the time I write it it is true... That's a little soon to attach to a dog anyways!
> 
> Today, I do not love my dog. I respect him and give him a good life. Maybe someday I'll get attached. Who knows. And WHY would you care about my emotion towards MY dog?


 Not trying to understand, simply trying to wrap my head around the contradiction. I can understand having feelings or symptoms or whatever you would like to call them change. My mother has had mental issues, so I get that. 



> That's a little soon to attach to a dog anyways!


 Really? Hmmm...perhaps that applies to you but I think I can safely say that does not apply to most people on this board. 



> And WHY would you care about my emotion towards MY dog?


 Because I love all dogs and want them to have everything they need. I am of the opinion that dogs need our love. Especially poodles. They have been bred to be human companions for a while now. Sure, their original use was as a working dog, but that has changed. Most people nowadays do not want or need a dog to work for them, they want a companion and friend. That has been reflected in the breeding of them.

As I stated before, I don't really have a wish to get involved in this. You are entitled to your opinion I'm entitled to mine. I just had a question, and it was answered. Thank you for taking the time to explain.  Y'all have fun, lol!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I thought this was a Poodle Forum and supposedly about positive, encouraging, helpful posts regarding poodles. I guess that's how they start, but honestly, I hate when the posts are hijacked for someone's Fifteen Minutes of Fame or whatever. Take it to another forum, perhaps one where motivations, feelings, and health issues are disscussed and keep them out of the poodle forum. I just don't get it --- an O/P asks for help about a pup that may not make it and anyone's musings about the merits of doing so seem to give people a soapbox, tee people off, and basically ruin the spirit of what I thought the Poodle Forum was. Perhaps I am wrong, but there are other venues for some of the other discussions and it would be preferable to me at least, if they would go elsewhere. Not sure if I said something borderline here, or not, it is an honest comment about someone who joined a year ago to share all the wonderful, beautiful, positive things about the poodles (and other pets) we have in our lives. Somehow, there seem to be some other agendas.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks for that very interesting read, LadyWolfe. It shed a light on the thinking of several friends, former colleagues, and even bosses. And one or two dogs ...


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

liljaker: Unless I have it wrong (which certainly is quite possible)--the OP's thread was separated from this thread, specifically due to the off-topic nature of postings and their intrinsic value. For those that did not wish to view them, and their concerns were restricted to the welfare of the OP's pups, the original thread was left open.

This is what PlumCrazy posted, as moderator:



> I want to thank the one (and ONLY) person who reported anything on this thread (and just today, btw!!) I was unaware of this thread's existence until the report. The thread is closed. It will be moderated (but since there is value in some of the off-topic comments, those will be moved to another thread....


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

faerie said:


> why this turtle hasn't been banned is beyond me.
> 
> misinformation, mean spirited comments, etc. don't get it. don't get it.


I am with you, faerie.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Guess that's what happens when you don't read every single post ---- but basically, it would nice if people would stay on topic, that's all.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I see no reason for any banning... or even for a warning.

Calling for the ban of a specific member in public may be questionable behavior by itself. We'll maybe have to check that with Plum.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

oh whatever, countryboy. 

i don't give a fig if someone has mental illness or not, so i'm not attacking anyone for that becaus ethat would be the pot calling the kettle black. lol

... but i've read MANY posts from this person which has been very inflammatory, meanspirited and plain not cool. OH and full of misinformation!

this is in addition to pointing to downright supportive of animal abuse (cat in a crate for training purposes for example). i don't care if they aren't bonded to their dog (many people consider dogs as livestock and provide care but not emotional attachment), but i do care when folks post BS as fact and are just plain mean.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

okay ... i'm outta here. it's not worth wasting my sunday. 

LOL


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

*ummm....*



faerie said:


> why this turtle hasn't been banned is beyond me.
> 
> misinformation, mean spirited comments, etc. don't get it. don't get it.


Faerie, didn't you mean to say, "culled" rather than banned???


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I think this thread has run its course - no good new information is being offered. This thread is closed.


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