# My Red babies 9 weeks



## PomPom (Aug 8, 2008)

Absolutley gorgeous


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

PomPom said:


> Absolutley gorgeous


thanks so much !


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

So cute , I notice on puppy has a undocked tail. Did someone request it ?

If so cool that is good to know you give people an option


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> So cute , I notice on puppy has a undocked tail. Did someone request it ?
> 
> If so cool that is good to know you give people an option


Yes but we had to decide at 3 days of age That was *really *hard !!
But I think we picked right so far he is holding together There will be lots of pictures of him in the upcoming months. I am so excited about him !!!


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh they are so cute and really dark red. You must miss them


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Trillium said:


> Oh they are so cute and really dark red. You must miss them


OMG YES! Thank god we still have littel Neelix here that really helps and We found the GREATEST homes...These babies are gonna be smart


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Pretty babies Sheryl. Lovely pigment.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Pretty babies Sheryl. Lovely pigment.


Thanks Cherie ! We think so too. We are very proud of these little furkids


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

They are so precious! I've finally convinced my fiance that the next dog we get (this will be a long time from now, as we have 4 already!) will be a spoo, I'll have to share these pictures to drive the point home! 

Being slightly poodle-dumb, just humor me, lol... will they stay this red as they get older? Or will they fade?


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

What lovely rich colored pups! Congrats! Best vives to them for their future lives.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Spencer said:


> They are so precious! I've finally convinced my fiance that the next dog we get (this will be a long time from now, as we have 4 already!) will be a spoo, I'll have to share these pictures to drive the point home!
> 
> Being slightly poodle-dumb, just humor me, lol... will they stay this red as they get older? Or will they fade?


 Red is a fading color. They will fade to a very rich red slightly darker then their mom. She is very red. The pigment of the skin and especially the nosed shaved close like this is key The father is dark red as well, so yes we expect at least this dark maybe darker..


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

So here are some from last week man I am gonna miss these guys for sure,
I think this is therapy for me


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

jester's mom said:


> What lovely rich colored pups! Congrats! Best vives to them for their future lives.


Hey one of my puppies is almost home to your neck of the woods he is going to Essex VT !!!!
She came and got him  She is on the road home right now !!!!!!!!!!!


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

beautiful!


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Do you show your spoos bigredpoodle? They are soooo beautiful, I'd give my two front teeth to have a beautiful red show poodle! :biggrin: 
*still drooling over Arreau's little show prospect* 
All in good time!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Do you show your spoos bigredpoodle? They are soooo beautiful, I'd give my two front teeth to have a beautiful red show poodle! :biggrin:
> *still drooling over Arreau's little show prospect*
> All in good time!


Time permitting yes we do .. Katie is my show girl .


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

OH... I'd love to see some pics of your show dogs! Do you have a website you can pm me?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> OH... I'd love to see some pics of your show dogs! Do you have a website you can pm me?


Sorry that pic was of ART I clicked on the wrong one this is Kitty


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

She's a beautiful girl!!!!! Do you show Akc/Ckc?
(sorry, I'm very nosy! Hope you don't mind ) I really want to start showing my own dog, and I've been reading up a lot and have learned an enormous amount on this forum. I love going to local shows and have met such nice people (and of course some snooty ones) and have seen some unbelievably beautiful dogs. I want to start out with a miniature and see how it goes, but that will only happen next year. Until then I'll admire the gorgeous standards!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> She's a beautiful girl!!!!! Do you show Akc/Ckc?
> (sorry, I'm very nosy! Hope you don't mind ) I really want to start showing my own dog, and I've been reading up a lot and have learned an enormous amount on this forum. I love going to local shows and have met such nice people (and of course some snooty ones) and have seen some unbelievably beautiful dogs. I want to start out with a miniature and see how it goes, but that will only happen next year. Until then I'll admire the gorgeous standards!


We show AKC.. I agree with your statement . I have such GREAT friends having been in the "Show worl"for over 20 years.. The poodle people are different for sure but still very nice.. Good luck to you I hope to meet up with you someday in the ring .. We will be the ones with the reds HA HA !!!


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> We show AKC.. I agree with your statement . I have such GREAT friends having been in the "Show worl"for over 20 years.. The poodle people are different for sure but still very nice.. Good luck to you I hope to meet up with you someday in the ring .. We will be the ones with the reds HA HA !!!


Yes, the poodle people are a bit different, but for some reason I've had no trouble fitting in (probably cause I have dogs on the brain! ROFL!!!!):biggrin1:

The Akc shows have really become my local "hang-out" and I've been fortunate to have met some of the well known handlers thru one of my close friends. She is showing her second dobe, who is still under a year, but he has great show potential and has done quite well thus far.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Yes, the poodle people are a bit different, but for some reason I've had no trouble fitting in (probably cause I have dogs on the brain! ROFL!!!!):biggrin1:
> 
> The Akc shows have really become my local "hang-out" and I've been fortunate to have met some of the well known handlers thru one of my close friends. She is showing her second dobe, who is still under a year, but he has great show potential and has done quite well thus far.


there is so much to be learned at the show isn't there? 
I think my favorite part was dragging the trailer anbd parking on the grounds Waking up in the morning and just walking around ..


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I totally agree... I still have a lot to learn!
I would have to say my favorite is just watching all the different breeds doing their thing. I you can pick up some good tips talking to people at shows


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I was looking at you puppy pictures again and they are lovely. I was so interested in them that I looked up your website on the net. 

I am a little bit of a fanatic about low coi after reading the Canine Diversity Project and learning that dogs with a coi of less then 10 on average live 4 years longer then those with a coi that is over 10. 

Out of curiosity I went to poodle pedigree.com and checked out your puppies parents. I was really surprised to see that their father Rojo had a coi of 37.06% for 10 generations and a coi of 38.83% for 12 generations. I then typed in their mother Lucy and found her coi to be 10.41% for 10 generations and 12.15% for 12 generations. I also typed in to find out what the coi on their last litter was and found it to be 9.49% for 10 generations and 11.50% for 12 generations.

Now I am brand new to the poodle breeding world though I am being mentored by a woman that has been involved in poodle breeding most of her life (in fact I co-own my girls with her)so I'm definitely still learning. But I thought I'd ask you why the high coi? 

Also I noticed that Lucy has a lot of Leatherstocking in her background. I thought, (please correct me if I'm wrong) that Leatherstocking's breeding practices were not all they should be. 

I guess I'm just a little bit concerned about your puppies long term health. I've got to say they are are pretty though.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Trillium said:


> I was looking at you puppy pictures again and they are lovely. I was so interested in them that I looked up your website on the net.
> 
> I am a little bit of a fanatic about low coi after reading the Canine Diversity Project and learning that dogs with a coi of less then 10 on average live 4 years longer then those with a coi that is over 10.


I would ask your mentor Cherie first before posting publicly or ask this person in a private message. You might have learned more. Every breeder has their own reasons for their breeding program, just as Cherie has for Arreau Poodles. 

This excerpt is taken from the lhasa-apso.org and might be of interest in your breeding education. Remember for centuries breeders didn't have COI to help them they had pedigrees and they knew what they needed or wanted from their lines.
"Much recent attention has been focused on theoretical concepts like COI. (Coefficient of inbreeding). Breeders are beset with the problem of reconciling the intuitive truth of the dangers of loss of genetic diversity with the practice of selective line=breeding which has, in many respects, served them well. Of less importance than line breeding vs. outcross breeding is the difference between stupid breeding and intelligent breeding. Outcrossing the wrong two dogs can be much more of a disaster than line breeding the right ones. I have seen this in operation for many years, and would like to offer some of my personal thoughts on good breeding practices.

1. Research. Know what problems potentially exist in any dog you are thinking of breeding. First, get all the information available on the modes of inheritance of all the defects known in your breed. Then comes the hard part. Though outcrossing is a great idea theoretically, in practice it is a field full of landmines. Within your own line, you are pretty sure what is there and what isn't - especially after many years. But when you outcross, do you know what you are getting? Has the breeder of that dog been completely candid? Does he/she even know what problems lurk in his/her dog's genes? What of the unexpected effects of combining two deleterious factors, each rather benign in themselves? Some diseases now appear to be the result mutations at two separate loci. Each of these genes alone seems incapable of producing the disease. Line bred dogs, having only one of these mutant genes are healthy. But outcross them, to a line which harbors the other gene, and disaster strikes! - Whole litters of pups sick and dying in adolescence or early adulthood .
2. The use of pedigrees. I know of breeders who use pedigrees to chose their breedings without regard to the animals. These "breeders" look to "concentrate the blood" of a famous animal, and will send a bitch to a stud without ever seeing or laying hands on him just to concentrate the blood. This is a disaster waiting to happen - the unholy combination of stupidity and inbreeding! The pedigree is only useful as a map of the probability that your litter will avoid certain problems and succeed in having some other qualities you want. Its usefulness is entirely dependant on what you know about each and every animal on it. To me the COI is of very secondary importance to what I know about the five generations of ancestors in front of me. If all these dogs are trash, the smallest COI in the world won't make a healthy and sound pup. And if all the ancestors are sound and healthy, the chances are good that the get will also be, despite a fairly high COI.
3. How to inbreed. You inbreed when you need to "fix" a quality, not just for the hell of it. Suppose I have poor quality coats in my line. Suddenly I come up with a litter which exhibits exceptional coat quality. I don't know where it came from, but I know I want to keep it. I will inbreed on those animals, and I will fix that coat. But how? First of all, I will try to get two rather different looking individuals who have as little as possible phenotypically in common, - except for the coat of course. Why? Because I want to preserve what diversity I can see while inbreeding on the selected quality.
4. How to outcross. First of all, know exactly why you are doing this particular outcross. Let's say I need better angulated rears. I have several lines to choose from, each with the rears I want. All of these lines are remote in ancestry from my dogs. How do I decide (after the normal research on health and inherited defects) which to use. This is very simple: I use assortative phenotypic mating. The dog that looks most like my line will give me the rear plus genetic diversity, but likely will not change my type. This last is important, not only for vanity's sake, but because if I don't like any of these pups, then I won't keep any, and then what's the use of having done the breeding.
5. What to select. This last is the most important. When you have done your outcross, and you have your litter in front of you. What then? All too often, breeders forget why they did the breeding in the first place. They breed for a better head, because their dogs have poor heads. Then they see the litter, and their eye is captured by a pup with a wonderful style and the same old head as usual. They end up selling the good headed pups as pets, and keeping what they already have - perhaps because it is familiar. I always write a contract with myself on the reasons for doing a particular breeding. Then when it comes time to select, I read my contract and make my choice accordingly.

In summary, research everything you can, use your pedigree intelligently, inbreed complementarily, outcross assortatively and select honestly. Use the COI as a commentary not as a commandment."


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for your informative answer. As I stated before I'm new to this and looking for different perspectives on issues. 

However I also realize that many other people are looking for information on the same issues and its important to talk about them. 

I'm particularly concerned about line breeding in red poodles. The reason that I am is because of the simple fact that so much line breeding had to go into the creation of the colour. I now think that it must be time to insure that there is a greater genetic diversity in the colour. Especially if we are looking to improve the lines etc of the breed. When you have a wonderful colour like bigredpoodle has surely it is time to introduce new genetics into the equation to insure long term health. 

However again I am not aware of her reasons for her choices to breed Rojo. (Other then I must say he is a lovely boy). I'm sure that she may have very good ones. I guess I'm just asking for the information.


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