# Biting People to play



## myfirstpoodle (May 25, 2021)

I would avoid aversive corrections at all costs. Do not spray your puppy with water or yell. Aversive corrections can turn a play bite into a defensive bite.

At the exact moment teeth connect with skin, you need to mark with a sound (this could be an “uh-uh” or “ow” at normal speaking volume) and remove your attention by either withdrawing from play by letting go of the toy and sitting still looking away, or standing up and completely turning away from puppy. After puppy has got the message (usually stops playing, lays down, or sits waiting for you to return) you should go back to playing like nothing happened.

This correction is not aversive, and is effective for puppies like mine who LOVE attention and play. What you are demonstrating to your pup is that all the good stuff stops when they are rough.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Whenever someone says nothing is working, I look to the age of the puppy and do the math. You’ve had him for about a month? That’s not nearly enough time to see results. Reinforce desirable behavior, redirect or ignore undesirable behavior, and stick with it. 

Think of a baby learning how to use a spoon. You don’t say “nothing’s working!” just because he flings his peas on the floor. You patiently put the spoon back in his hand and celebrate when he uses it. Repeat repeat repeat. One day it’ll click.

Puppy biting will naturally subside. At that age, not only do their little mouths hurt, they use those mouths to explore the world. Totally normal. What you don’t want is to inadvertently reinforce mouthing behavior which _can_ persist into adulthood. But you also don’t want to create anxiety about attempts to interact with you.

So always have toys within reach, all different shapes and textures, and animate one and stick it in his mouth when he makes contact with your skin or clothing. Make it more exciting than you! If that doesn’t work, quietly remove yourself from the situation, count to 30 or so and then return. If it happens again, nap time.

Are you using a puppy manual? I highly recommend Ian Dunbar’s _Before and After Getting Your Puppy_. It’s available online for free, but I prefer my hard copy.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I have always tapped the puppy on the nose (tapped, not whacked!) and said "no bites!". That's worked on many, many puppies over the years.


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

I have really tried the "yelp" and the "ow" big fan of positive reinforcement but absolutely not working with this pup! (Worked on many puppies over the years.) will try the nose tap. Honestly, this puppy is cut of a different clouth! Love him to pieces but he does not respond to the normal positive reinforcement (treat when he stops and "ow") tactics! Its not that he is being "bad" he just doesn't realise how much his razor sharp teeth hurt. Literally he draws blood every time!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

He’s a baby. Be patient.  Is your skin perhaps thinner than it used to be? That is a very real issue for aging dog owners. It’s not that the puppy bites are worse, but they can do more damage as we get older.

Jumping to aversive methods with a baby dog is, IMO, not a great idea. If we’d done that with Peggy, we could very well be dealing with aggression now. Every professional we’ve worked with—including a certified trainer and a behaviorist (PhD)—has been very, very glad we didn’t resort to force with her, because it would have made their job a whole lot harder.

A treat when your little guy stops biting isn’t really teaching him how to use his mouth politely. That’s why I mentioned redirection above. Eventually you’ll find that he seeks out appropriate items to mouth when he’s excited or wanting to play.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh, and poodles see right through those fake yelps. Lol. It can even make them _more_ excited, causing them to bite more.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

He's must be having fun biting you/them. You (and others) have to stop the fun. No chasing. No taking things away (unless it's expensive or dangerous). No yelling at him. No fast hand movements. Each of these, and a million other variations, are likely fun to him. Give him the "ett-ett" at the biting/teeth contact moment, then turn into a tree. Stay froze until he calms down. Ideally you don't even pull away, but if he's drawing blood, pull away and then freeze. Do you have a crate? His crate is the place where he should be learning what are acceptable things to chew on.


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

LOL, yea he is a bright boy for certain. I wish it was just my aging skin but my son (11) refuses to come downstairs unless he is locked up ....or very tired. I get it though, I don't want to take the puppy out of him but gosh it hurts! Even the vet commented that his teeth were exceptionally razor sharp! I will gladly tough it through though. I figured another approach is spraying our clouths where he typically bites with the vinegar or deterrent. This seems to help as well.... All trial and error it seems, trying th nose tapping next. Incredibly smart dogs that is for certain. 
...I am noticing with training (he sits, stays, comes, heels, lays down) all on command.... as long as there is a treat involved. If he doesn't see a treat in your hand it won't happen!


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Thanks, yes I freeze when he bites me, my son has a lot of trouble with this because it hurts so much. I think that is why he is the preference because he gets more of a reaction. Although he still does it with me... I keep trying to tell my son that but I understand why it's difficult for him. Trying to do what I can and keeping my fingers crossed it begins to work! (In the meantime I think I'll wash my son's clothes in vinegar - completely kidding but it did cross my mind!) Thank you so much for the tips!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bernedoodle said:


> LOL, yea he is a bright boy for certain. I wish it was just my aging skin but my son (11) refuses to come downstairs unless he is locked up ....or very tired. I get it though, I don't want to take the puppy out of him but gosh it hurts! Even the vet commented that his teeth were exceptionally razor sharp! I will gladly tough it through though. I figured another approach is spraying our clouths where he typically bites with the vinegar or deterrent. This seems to help as well.... All trial and error it seems, trying th nose tapping next. Incredibly smart dogs that is for certain.
> ...I am noticing with training (he sits, stays, comes, heels, lays down) all on command.... as long as there is a treat involved. If he doesn't see a treat in your hand it won't happen!


Once you’ve taught a command, keep treats out of sight. They can then appear like magic rather than being used as a lure.

And be sure to wear tight fitting clothes. No flappy wide legs or flowy skirts. I lived in capri leggings with puppy Peggy. Really helps.

Honestly, there are no shortcuts here. You want to teach your puppy that human hands = kindness. You don’t want a dog that’s wary of sudden movements or anxious around people. Rather than trying to shut down a normal behavior, you want to teach an acceptable alternative. It’ll feel like it’s taking forever and then suddenly POOF! You’ve got a happy dog with a gentle mouth who knows how to self-soothe.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Bernedoodle said:


> Thanks, yes I freeze when he bites me, my son has a lot of trouble with this because it hurts so much. I think that is why he is the preference because he gets more of a reaction. Although he still does it with me... I keep trying to tell my son that but I understand why it's difficult for him. Trying to do what I can and keeping my fingers crossed it begins to work! (In the meantime I think I'll wash my son's clothes in vinegar - completely kidding but it did cross my mind!) Thank you so much for the tips!


In this case, when he bites (or attempts to) your son, its x-pen time. Don't make it punishment though. You should stay nearby, talk to him, give him chew toys, etc. After 5 or so minutes, let him out again. Repeat if necessary.


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

Th


PeggyTheParti said:


> Once you’ve taught a command, keep treats out of sight. They can then appear like magic rather than being used as a lure.
> 
> And be sure to wear tight fitting clothes. No flappy wide legs or flowy skirts. I lived in capri leggings with puppy Peggy. Really helps.
> 
> Honestly, there are no shortcuts here. You want to teach your puppy that human hands = kindness. You don’t want a dog that’s wary of sudden movements or anxious around people. Rather than trying to shut down a normal behavior, you want to teach an acceptable alternative. It’ll feel like it’s taking forever and then suddenly POOF! You’ve got a happy dog with a gentle mouth who knows how to self-soothe.


Thank you! I think that is what I am waiting for the "POOF"! I am pretty consistent with things but my son is having trouble, its good to know that it comes with time! GREAT tip with the treats! I know he knows those commands now its just getting him to do it consistently so treats disappear and poof appear intermittently so it's reinforced, great advice! - Tight fitting clouthes hadn't thought of that, but come to think of it every trainer on utube seems to wear them! I have noticed things are difficult when I am wearing my baggy pajamas, I think it is just too tempting for a puppy!
Thank you!


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Once you’ve taught a command, keep treats out of sight. They can then appear like magic rather than being used as a lure.
> 
> And be sure to wear tight fitting clothes. No flappy wide legs or flowy skirts. I lived in capri leggings with puppy Peggy. Really helps.
> 
> Honestly, there are no shortcuts here. You want to teach your puppy that human hands = kindness. You don’t want a dog that’s wary of sudden movements or anxious around people. Rather than trying to shut down a normal behavior, you want to teach an acceptable alternative. It’ll feel like it’s taking forever and then suddenly POOF! You’ve got a happy dog with a gentle mouth who knows how to self-soothe.


Thank you! I think that is what I am waiting for the "POOF"! I am pretty consistent with things but my son is having trouble, its good to know that it comes with time! GREAT tip with the treats! I know he knows those commands now its just getting him to do it consistently so treats disappear and poof appear intermittently so it's reinforced, great advice! - Tight fitting clouthes hadn't thought of that, but come to think of it every trainer on utube seems to wear them! I have noticed things are difficult when I am wearing my baggy pajamas, I think it is just too tempting for a puppy!
Thank you!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bernedoodle said:


> Thank you! I think that is what I am waiting for the "POOF"! I am pretty consistent with things but my son is having trouble, its good to know that it comes with time! GREAT tip with the treats! I know he knows those commands now its just getting him to do it consistently so treats disappear and poof appear intermittently so it's reinforced, great advice! - Tight fitting clouthes hadn't thought of that, but come to think of it every trainer on utube seems to wear them! I have noticed things are difficult when I am wearing my baggy pajamas, I think it is just too tempting for a puppy!
> Thank you!


Type “puppy biting” into the Poodle Forum search bar and you’ll see we’ve all been where you are. There’s some comfort in that, right? At least a little bit? Lol.

13 weeks is way way too soon for a POOF, at least when it comes to mouthing. This is something you’ll be consistently redirecting or ignoring for months. And then you’ll be deep into adolescence, which brings its own set of challenges. Buckle up! It’s a fun ride.


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Type “puppy biting” into the Poodle Forum search bar and you’ll see we’ve all been where you are. There’s some comfort in that, right? At least a little bit? Lol.
> 
> 13 weeks is way way too soon for a POOF, at least when it comes to mouthing. This is something you’ll be consistently redirecting or ignoring for months. And then you’ll be deep into adolescence, which brings its own set of challenges. Buckle up! It’s a fun ride.


LOL thanks for the heads up! Good to know I will have to manage my expectations with my little character. He is just so great though I can't believe we have a puppy as a part of our family finally!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

My boy Galen was very boisterous and very nippy. I combated his nipping with a mixture of manners and trick training. He was nipping because he wanted attention and he wanted to play. So, he got attention and playtime by doing training games with me which rewarded him for staying at a polite distance from me. A puppy can't bite if he's not within biting distance. I used clicker training, because the sound of the click clearly marked the exact moment he had done the correct thing. It made things less confusing for him, but plenty of people teach tricks without using a clicker. Some of our training games included:

Heel. I walked and ran around the yard with puppy following me. He got a click and a treat if I looked down to my left and saw a puppy looking up at me. He got no treat if he was out of position or if he nipped me.
Sit. I lured him into a sit by holding a treat over his nose and slowly moving it over his head. As he raised his head to watch the treat his hind end would sink down into a sit. He got a click and treat when his hind end went down.
Sit on a mat. First I lured him into putting his front paws on a mat. Click, treat when he did. Then I encouraged him to put all four feet on the mat. Click treat a few times. Then I asked him to sit on the mat. Click treat.
Sit on a mat and wait. Once he got good at sitting on the mat I added _wait_ and took a step to the side. Then click and treat if he remained sitting. If he got up I said _uh-uh_ and asked him to sit again. Once he got to where I could take one step without him moving I tried two steps, followed by click and treat. Then three steps. Then a full circle around him. He usually broke his sit when I passed behind him; he wanted to stand up so he could see where I was. I would tell him _uh-uh_, put him back in his sit, and start moving around him again. He got his click and treat when I was able to walk all the way around him while he sat on his mat. From there we started adding duration.
Back up. I walked toward him quickly while making a shooing motion with my hands and telling him to back up. As soon as he took one startled step backwards I stopped, clicked, and gave him his treat. I worked him up to three steps backwards once he understood what the shooing motion meant.
Catch a treat in mid air. Once he got good at backing up I tossed a treat at his head. Eventually, with enough practice, he got to where he could catch the treat 9 times out of 10. This was a great game to get him to give me some distance, because he knew he only got the treat if he was standing three steps away from me.
Additionally, I taught all my neighbor kids not to run or flap their hands if one of my puppies ran towards them. Make a fist to protect their fingers, cross their arms over their chest to get their arms out of reach, and turn to face away from the puppy. Then stand and wait for me to rescue them.


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## Apricot mini momma (Dec 22, 2020)

Bernedoodle said:


> LOL, yea he is a bright boy for certain. I wish it was just my aging skin but my son (11) refuses to come downstairs unless he is locked up ....or very tired. I get it though, I don't want to take the puppy out of him but gosh it hurts! Even the vet commented that his teeth were exceptionally razor sharp! I will gladly tough it through though. I figured another approach is spraying our clouths where he typically bites with the vinegar or deterrent. This seems to help as well.... All trial and error it seems, trying th nose tapping next. Incredibly smart dogs that is for certain.
> ...I am noticing with training (he sits, stays, comes, heels, lays down) all on command.... as long as there is a treat involved. If he doesn't see a treat in your hand it won't happen!


My puppy loves ankles with his shark teeth. I practiced what PeggyTheParti and others suggested, “Reinforce desirable behavior, redirect or ignore undesirable behavior, and stick with it.”. I would stop in my tracks cross my arms and look away staying still for moments until I was sure he was sitting there nicely or had walked away. He stopped fairly quickly. My husband on the other hand would get all excited and while continuing to move around complain about it. He continued to get ankle attacks for weeks 🤪. Poor guy and poor baby. 

Anyway, he’s just a baby and he will learn, it’s just a puppy thing!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Everyone has to be consistent in using the same techniques. Your husband needs to calm down! I never got anywhere with yelping or acting hurt. That just got a more excited puppy. Ignore that mouthy stuff and be as boring as possible. I also actually practiced (and still do) having puppies let me put my fingers and hands in their mouths when they were starting out calm. It is a good behavior to train for when they take something naughty or potentially dangerous or when needing to give medication. When our now passed on GSD was young I had to give him a 4 week course of ivermectin for demodex. It tastes horrible and he quickly became really wary and reluctant, but I could pry his mouth open and aim the syringe (no needle) way back onto his soft palatte so he had no chance to spit it out. He had a super soft mouth because of what he was taught about hands and mouths when he was young.


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## andyvee (Sep 25, 2021)

Bernedoodle said:


> I have really tried the "yelp" and the "ow" big fan of positive reinforcement but absolutely not working with this pup! (Worked on many puppies over the years.) will try the nose tap. Honestly, this puppy is cut of a different clouth! Love him to pieces but he does not respond to the normal positive reinforcement (treat when he stops and "ow") tactics! Its not that he is being "bad" he just doesn't realise how much his razor sharp teeth hurt. Literally he draws blood every time!


Oh no! This has to be corrected asap. My recommendation is two fold.

1. Bite inhibition
2. Immediate corrections.

First thing I worked on with my spoo (18 weeks now) was the nipping. The key here is to get them to understand it hurts. Sounds like you tried this already. I started around the 8-10 week mark, and shes learned to stop biting with an "OUCH". He won't stop forever, but he'll stop in the short term. That's when you redirect. The goal is to get them to stop biting hard. Bit inhibition. I would focus on that over stopping the nipping at first.

If he is not getting the point, very drastic measures must be taken. When he bites to hard, and a yelp doesn't work, immediately get up and leave the room. Start with being away for 10 seconds. Come back as if nothing happened and resume play. If they continue, leave again and increase the time you are away. Eventually they will learn that biting causes the fun to stop. This is the correction. You need to be consistent. You need to also do this with your kid. Same idea. Play without biting. If biting occurs, you leave and come back. It's very important the correction happens right after a yelp. This way they understand why you are leaving.

Would love to hear back if any of this helped.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

andyvee this puppy is not really lacking bite inhibition. He lacks impulse control. The OP has already tried much of what you suggested, but seems realy to need to pick one strategy and stick with it. IME yelping just makes an already over threshold pup even more excited. I generally favor short quiet time outs and have had more success myself with my pups and with client dogs using that strategy. I agree with your 2nd paragraph much more than your first.


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## andyvee (Sep 25, 2021)

lily cd re, i'd love to see a puppy < than 6 months with proper impulse control. Its not good advice simply because it's unrealistic. You are right for dogs in general. My two points handle those cases. The yelping when done right should decrease bite pressure. The second point works on bite impulse control. It sounds like my second point is what you do. And that's how you teach the impulse control. But you can't expect impulse control to do anything if bite inhibition isn't taught first. In OPs case, there are children. Children are unpredictable. Thus expecting a puppy not to relapse is dangerous.

I should be clear here. Expecting a puppy not to bite is ridiculous and sets the wrong impression to new dog owners. Puppies bite. It's what they do. The key is to channel that energy on the right things (chew toys).


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

andyvee said:


> lily cd re, i'd love to see a puppy < than 6 months with proper impulse control. Its not good advice simply because it's unrealistic. You are right for dogs in general. My two points handle those cases. The yelping when done right should decrease bite pressure. The second point works on bite impulse control. It sounds like my second point is what you do. And that's how you teach the impulse control. But you can't expect impulse control to do anything if bite inhibition isn't taught first. In OPs case, there are children. Children are unpredictable. Thus expecting a puppy not to relapse is dangerous.
> 
> I should be clear here. Expecting a puppy not to bite is ridiculous and sets the wrong impression to new dog owners. Puppies bite. It's what they do. The key is to channel that energy on the right things (chew toys).


@andyvee why don't you pop over to the introductions section and tell us a bit about your background and experience. @lily cd re is an accredited dog trainer who has also put quite a few titles on her dogs.


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## andyvee (Sep 25, 2021)

cowpony said:


> @andyvee why don't you pop over to the introductions section and tell us a bit about your background and experience. @lily cd re is an accredited dog trainer who has also put quite a few titles on her dogs.


I admit I haven't even read the rules and may have already broken some. Sorry about that. Will intro and read trough everything!


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## Bernedoodle (Jul 12, 2021)

We have lots of chew toys and redirect him since the beginning. Puppies have different personalities as my vet said. It is not always as simple as sticking with one thing. Different things work with different dogs because they are different. Of course, I expect puppies to bite and continue to work with him. I like to hear if there is anything I have not tried yet and regardless appreciate suggestions. Thank you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Bernedoodle, yes, different puppies do have different personalities and will benefit from different methods of training that are suited to that pup's personality, but switching what you are doing every few days makes for a confused puppy many times. Once a family finds a good way to handle their puppy they should stick with it.

andyvee I met a 4 month old GR puppy with a lovely personality and really decent impulse control at a rally trial yesterday. Her owner brought her along with her entered dog to do socialization. This puppy clearly already knew not to jump on people or to use her mouth heavily to interact with the people who greeted her. Was she perfect, no but she was pretty darn good. So your suggestion that puppies can't be excellent even at young ages is not spot on.

As to bite inhibition, this is a term I think many people misuse. Bite inhibition is a behavior best learned among litter mates and perhaps from mom before puppies leave their whelping homes. It is why puppies have needle teeth. By being bitten and learning how bad a hard bite feels puppies teach each other not to bite hard or with malicious intention. This doesn't mean they don't mouth at people once they reach their permanent homes, they certainly do but if they have good bite inhibition they don't clamp down hard. More often than not people get broken skin from reacting abruptly to the feeling of teeth on their hand or toe by jerking that body part away from the puppy. As much as it hurts I never jerked any body part out of any of our pup's mouths. If I already had leave it installed I just told them to leave it and more often than not they let go. If I couldn't use leave it I would get a bit of physical control over what was happening so that I could gently withdraw my hand or my feet. People cannot really teach true bite inhibition to dogs. I once had a consult with a woman who had a rehomed dog that truly lacked bite inhibition. This smallish dog bit down so hard on my arm that I had bite shaped bruises on my arm afterwards and I had been wearing a long sleeved shirt with a pretty heavy duty sweat shirt over it. This dog had never learned bite inhibition and was never going to learn bite inhibition. She was able to put a soft muzzle on the dog to manage the biting, but honestly I really thought she dog should have been euthanized because it was a danger to her elderly mother who had paper thin skin and mobility issues. A dog like that never should have been placed into any home other than with healthy adults who were very experienced handlers. By the time I met this dog it was really too late to accomplish much.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

lily cd re said:


> As to bite inhibition, this is a term I think many people misuse. Bite inhibition is a behavior best learned among litter mates and perhaps from mom before puppies leave their whelping homes.


This is a great point. Bite inhibition is different from manners. I think bite inhibition has, to some extent, passed out of a dog's conscious control by the time the dog hits adolescence. It's like a human knowing how to pick up a Styrofoam cup. We know exactly how to position our hand and how much force to apply when we grasp the cup. We don't need to think about it. It's also different from knowing not to tease people by pouring coffee on them.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

cowpony said:


> This is a great point. Bite inhibition is different from manners. I think bite inhibition has, to some extent, passed out of a dog's conscious control by the time the dog hits adolescence. It's like a human knowing how to pick up a Styrofoam cup. We know exactly how to position our hand and how much force to apply when we grasp the cup. We don't need to think about it. It's also different from knowing not to tease people by pouring coffee on them.


This is my impression too. Like, they acquire it through early interactions and play, but when the pedal hits the metal and you accidentally step on your dog in the night, it's bite inhibition that is going to save your leg from injury. It's really not entirely conscious once installed, more like a proprioceptive skill like riding a bike. It also doesn't prevent a dog from biting hard by choice, if they're truly threatened or way overaroused, but it gives them the ability to modulate in situations where biting down hard isn't necessary. In this case though, for dogs the mouth is also a body part involved in communication. Being able to modulate bite pressure in that sense is like being able to control the volume of your voice.


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