# VENTING - A "come to jesus" talk with my trainer



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

curious as to what your trainer said in response?


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Before I even said anything, the first thing she said was "thank you for you patience last week" and then "you're dog is such a pleasure to work with" and that's when I said something. She opened the door by acknowledging last week was a mess.

She "affirmed" everything I said and tried to explain and I told her I understand why - I didn't agree and she said she had already talked to the others about controlling their dog better and that, if it continues, they will be asked to return with a different class.

Who knows if she's being honest or not. I do know there have been times with some of the trainers there that owners have been asked to leave due to aggression and total disruption. 

I'm curious to see how next week goes because I'll walk out and go to the facility's manager. 

hahaha last week when the dog lunged at mine I said "that dog has a mean streak" and a different trainer who stepped in for something said "children are mean, dogs aren't - he's just possessive" and I said "tell that to the parent of the 3 year old that gets bit because that dog is "possessive" for a toy in the kid's hands...


----------



## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

The sad thing is that most "training classes" are just filled with "problem-dogs"... people come in after they already dropped the ball on their training by being irresponsible dog owners! So they sign up for class to "fix their dog"... Instead of starting to train them properly from day 1 ....

I've gone through something similar to what you described. When Lou was a puppy we signed her up for intermediate class because I had already been training her on my own. She behaved like the perfect young lady she is, but the other dogs (most of them) acted like lunatic-frustrated-unhappy-dogs because of their owners not taking the time to READ and educate themselves before even getting a dog! 

I agree with you, 
"if you can't make a commitment, get a stuffed animal, they're cute and won't suffer from your stupidity or ignorance! "

Here's a good collage to get the point accross! 










Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Well this puppy is only 6 months old, mine is 5 months old but I started working with him on simple training from day one. He's also a relaxed, chill dog, doesn't get super excited - but alert and so happy. I'm kind of laid back, our home is relaxed and laid back and his breeding is excellent. I have the gem - sad to read others are dealing with this kind of thing.

I think if I HAD a problem dog, I'd pay the extra bucks to do private until he learned.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i feel sorry for the border collie. he is in the wrong household with the wrong owner. many, if not most, need work and a ton of exercise or they have no way to dissipate their high energy levels. patricia mcconnell actually rehomed one of her border collies because there was not enough work on her smallish farm to keep him happy. your trainer should consider directing the dog's owner to something like flyball, agility, etc. but frankly the owner sounds like a dummy to begin with, so i wouldn't expect anything out of that, either.


----------



## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Interesting*

Thank you, GeriDe, for your post! 

One of my favorite threads about Dog Training is this one:
http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/23497-puppy-class-tips.html

Auditing an obedience class sounds like a great idea. Perhaps another instructor? 
HerdingStdPoodle


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Good for you for speaking up to the trainer! :thumb: (Been there, done that myself.) I wish_ more_ people would. I think too many times people who get fed up with nonsense like you experienced just quit coming. There is simply _no excuse _for a training class to be so unruly! Trainers need the feedback from their students and they should be held accountable for _everything _that goes on in class.:nod:


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

patk said:


> i feel sorry for the border collie. ..... your trainer should consider directing the dog's owner to something like flyball, agility, etc. but frankly the owner sounds like a dummy to begin with, so i wouldn't expect anything out of that, either.


The owners are elderly living in the suburbs. Of course they aren't giving this dog enough to do. I feel for the dog too - I think I said it has a lot of promise. The trainer suggesting something more complex as agility would most likely put the owners in their graves.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Chagall's mom said:


> Good for you for speaking up to the trainer! :thumb: (Been there, done that myself.) I wish_ more_ people would. I think too many times people who get fed up with nonsense like you experienced just quit coming. There is simply _no excuse _for a training class to be so unruly! Trainers need the feedback from their students and they should be held accountable for _everything _that goes on in class.:nod:


Thank you - I tend to speak up. I could have picked the more experienced trainer but, since I'm a teacher, I tend to give people the chance. I was firm but not rude and we'll see how next week goes.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

GeriDe said:


> The owners are elderly living in the suburbs. Of course they aren't giving this dog enough to do. I feel for the dog too - I think I said it has a lot of promise. The trainer suggesting something more complex as agility would most likely put the owners in their graves.


do you ever wonder why people pick dogs totally unsuited to their lifestyles? it's incomprehensible to me. it sounds like this dog could very likely end up being given up to a shelter or rescue. smh.


----------



## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

patk said:


> do you ever wonder why people pick dogs totally unsuited to their lifestyles? it's incomprehensible to me. it sounds like this dog could very likely end up being given up to a shelter or rescue. smh.


Shame, I hate how BCs and other high energy, intelligent, driven to work dogs get placed with placid people. I feel so badly for all of them involved. The dog is miserable, making the people miserable, then the dog gets punished for making the people miserable so he is condemed to the back yard and eventually, the shelter (if he's lucky).  I LOVE Border Collies, but I don't have enough work for one anymore. I feel guilty enough with the extra hours I've been working lately and my Kelpies and Poodles are starting to get into mischief. Not their faults at all. I am trying to get creative to keep them from going insane. I don't know how an elderly couple will be able to keep up with a young Border Colie at all.


----------



## Feelingdoc (Feb 18, 2014)

(My son and) I attempted ONE agility class with my two spoos (wasted a couple hundred dollars). It was a nightmare - my dogs hated it. They were both very stressed out. Cody pooped (Mr. Manners) and broke leash and ran directly to the car...talk about a stink eye! I'm not sure what all when wrong - I know my dogs are not very socialized with other dogs...and my neutered male tends to be protective of my female so I tend to avoid other dog contact. I think I was probably one of the stupid pet owners...that took up class time.


----------



## LibertyH (Jun 9, 2013)

So glad you spoke up! We had an unfortunate class last week - first off leash event and all the big boys decided to mob my little lady. She spent the rest of the class hiding. I can't imagine if that were a regular occurrence! Your poor pup.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am glad you gave the trainer your feedback, she needed to hear it. A BC with an elderly couple who don't live on a farm sound like a recipe for failure to me. I think people see a cute smart dog and fail to consider the dog's needs at all.

LibertyH, I am appalled that your little girl was surrounded that way. Sounds like you might need to talk to your trainer too.


----------



## MaryEdwards (Oct 29, 2012)

*Bad Puppy In Class (Long Post)*

I'm sorry to say Bentley was "That Dog". He was a wild child when we got him, and at home with just DH and me, he would do what was asked. But add one person, dog, or anything different, he became over reactive, so I resorted to Obedience Classes. He was the worst participant ever. I was sooooo embarrassed!!
Since, he is two, I have seen much improvement with work and training. Still a way to go, but now I think we could return to class successfully. Just saying, you don't know what will happen till you get them to class.


----------



## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

That's why I love my training center. You either need to start in the puppy kindergarten and go up through each obedience class or you get a full evaluation and approval before u are allowed to sign up for the obedience class individually. Each class (total of 4) was full of decent dogs. Of course some were more trouble than others, but the trainer already knew about the challenges in each dog in her class because of the assessments and was very good at applying different techniques to fit the dog, and no particular dog took up more time. Aria was the problem dog through each class..lol she would get vocal anytime the trainer did not pick her for demo, or if the trainer was taking too long to explain things and not giving us something to work on. Aria would take 20-25 min of each class getting her sillies out before she could focus and work on anything...but at the end of the final test. Our final assessment was off leash. I was dreading it. At home she practiced and was progressing very well, but she was a total different dog when she had an audience...lol and all the other dogs in that class had shown way more improvement in class then aria had. Anyways, all the dogs did pretty poorly on their final assessment, although each one passed, because they had improved and it really was just a time thing, when it got to Arias turn I was prepared to be embarrassed. Aria did everything perfectly, as if we were practicing at home and no one else was in the room. My trainer turned around to the rest of the class and said "and there is the prime example of a poodle's mind at work" I look back on those days that I fought the urge to grab ahold of her leash and run out of class because she was embarrassing me and now I can't believe she is such a well behaved show dog who still LOVES all the attention on her...lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

MaryEdwards said:


> I'm sorry to say Bentley was "That Dog". He was a wild child when we got him, and at home with just DH and me, he would do what was asked. But add one person, dog, or anything different, he became over reactive, so I resorted to Obedience Classes. He was the worst participant ever. I was sooooo embarrassed!!
> Since, he is two, I have seen much improvement with work and training. Still a way to go, but now I think we could return to class successfully*. Just saying, you don't know what will happen till you get them to class. *


I do understand your point. My thinking is if, _for whatever reason_, a particular dog turns out not to be well-suited for or is too disruptive to the class, or worst case scenario is a menace to others, the situation needs to be remedied by the instructor/trainer, and STAT! Regrettably, I have twice over the years seen trainers fail to meet that responsibility. Two different trainers, at two differently training facilities, with two different dogs, decades apart. The difference being years ago after the first troubling experience I just quit going to the class. But when it happened again, when Chagall was a pup, after politely addressing the matter with the trainer who chose to cop an, "Oh well, and BTW we don't refund enrollment fees" attitude, I stood up and took a stand (a legal remedy) and got my money back. It _wasn't _about the money for me, it was about getting her attention by pinching her in the wallet so that _maybe_, just_ maybe_, she'd re-examine her responsibility for the safety and well being of those in her classes and do better. Incidentally, two others dropped the class the same time I did so the message was offered loud and clear.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Feelingdoc said:


> (My son and) I attempted ONE agility class with my two spoos (wasted a couple hundred dollars). It was a nightmare - my dogs hated it. They were both very stressed out. Cody pooped (Mr. Manners) and broke leash and ran directly to the car...talk about a stink eye! I'm not sure what all when wrong - I know my dogs are not very socialized with other dogs...and my neutered male tends to be protective of my female so I tend to avoid other dog contact. I think I was probably one of the stupid pet owners...that took up class time.


my male (lowchen, neutered) became a barker at every dog we met when i introduced a female (lowchen, spayed, older) into the household. the interesting thing was that she was the dominant dog - made him sit and wait while she drank first. when, after four years with us, she had to be put to sleep due to illness, my guy returned to being his usual calm, quiet self when on walks and encountering other dogs. 



MaryEdwards said:


> I'm sorry to say Bentley was "That Dog". He was a wild child when we got him, and at home with just DH and me, he would do what was asked. But add one person, dog, or anything different, he became over reactive, so I resorted to Obedience Classes. He was the worst participant ever. I was sooooo embarrassed!!
> Since, he is two, I have seen much improvement with work and training. Still a way to go, but now I think we could return to class successfully. Just saying, you don't know what will happen till you get them to class.


the difference is that as owners, you were not impervious to the concerns of others - and their dogs.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Trainers have to be smart enough about dealing with the people as they are about understanding what is happening with the dogs. In this case, the owner has no clue about how to handle the dog from what it sounds like (petting the dog for being reactive just reinforces reactivity rather than helping the dog to understand how to settle). The trainer needed to address that while it was happening. She probably could have taken the BC from the owner and done an effective demo with it that would have helped the owner learn and made it possible for you to get something out of the class.

A BC does sound like a wildly poor choice for these folks and it sounds like a bad prognosis for the dog's future (rehoming, shelter or worse...). I personally think that unless someone has sheep and needs a BC to herd or you plan to do performance sports most people shouldn't have BCs. It is so hard to satiate their physical and psychological needs if they don't have fulfilling jobs. 

I don't understand why people are so foolish about how they choose a dog/breed. The dog will be living with you for 10-15+ years depending on the breed and the individual dog's genetics. Why would you get it without doing thorough research. After all I know lots of people who do tons of research on the best TV, cell phone or car to buy, only to get rid of it when the next model comes along. You can sell the car to someone else or donate the cell phone to a charity with no adverse consequences for the car or the phone. You can't do that with a dog, cat, bird, etc.

I hope you are able to get good things out of the class and that the trainer steps up to the plate if the BC comes back next week.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

patk said:


> do you ever wonder why people pick dogs totally unsuited to their lifestyles? it's incomprehensible to me. it sounds like this dog could very likely end up being given up to a shelter or rescue. smh.


They have had Borders since they were first married, this is their 4th. They love the breed and don't realize they don't have what it takes anymore. I feel for them in a way - as we age, we have some limits that stop us from things we love.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Feelingdoc said:


> (My son and) I attempted ONE agility class with my two spoos (wasted a couple hundred dollars). It was a nightmare - my dogs hated it. They were both very stressed out. Cody pooped (Mr. Manners) and broke leash and ran directly to the car...talk about a stink eye! I'm not sure what all when wrong - I know my dogs are not very socialized with other dogs...and my neutered male tends to be protective of my female so I tend to avoid other dog contact. I think I was probably one of the stupid pet owners...that took up class time.


Khaos is very tolerant of other dogs. He was the unhealthy runt of the litter so he's used to being bullied a little - he bounces back. He has an AMAZING personality. He is happy and joyful and eager to please and his method, when stressed is to just shut down. He doesn't cower or hide - he just lays at my feet and says "eff this" and when he does get the attention - he's all "yeaa this is cool, what can I learn now" He handles this issue better than I do.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> I hope you are able to get good things out of the class and that the trainer steps up to the plate if the BC comes back next week.


ABSOLUTELY - I watch intensely - Khaos leans whatever command in class within 4-5 attempts and we spend the week practicing. The real training comes at home - class only introduces it. 

I had concerns about getting a Poodle at one point, they are high energy and need challenge. It's taken me some reflection and changing to learn how to accommodate my dog's needs - not mine - and he's so laid back. He's the "chill dog" - patient and eager to make me happy. He loves to run and after our walks and his pee and poo - I let him off leash and say RUNNNNnnn and he takes off in the woods then comes back 5 minutes later panting like "where were you?" and sits at the door.

I find that I don't have the physical ability to do a lot but I have the smarts to challenge him with commands, tricks, things like that. He will spend an hour with me just playing the "commands game" then nap. I'm got a really good dog!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Feelingdoc said:


> (My son and) I attempted ONE agility class with my two spoos (wasted a couple hundred dollars). *It was a nightmare - my dogs hated it. They were both very stressed out*. Cody pooped (Mr. Manners) and broke leash and ran directly to the car...talk about a stink eye! I'm not sure what all when wrong - I know my dogs are not very socialized with other dogs...and my neutered male tends to be protective of my female so I tend to avoid other dog contact. I think I was probably one of the stupid pet owners...that took up class time.


Don't let that experience put you off all ring sports. If you pick the right sport I think it is a great relationship builder, in your case for you and your son as well as for each of you with your dogs. "Forgive" yourself for being one of the "stupid pet owners" and move onto something different.

Agility classes are often very high energy environments. During my early classes I spent at least as much energy and more time working on keeping Lily relaxed between our turns on equipment and sequences as I did on equipment and sequences. In the long run it was our obedience work that let agility become viable for us. I would suggest that if you want to do something fun and team building with your dogs and your son that you should try rally. It is much quieter overall and you can talk to your dog freely. You can also take your time getting through the courses if you don't care about placements. When I started rally I thought it was a silly little fill in thing to do while working on other stuff, but as you can see below I have more rally titles with Lily than anything else so far. We are going to put it on the back burner a bit since we are ready for utility but it is a great sport.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

GeriDe said:


> ABSOLUTELY - I watch intensely - Khaos leans whatever command in class within 4-5 attempts and we spend the week practicing. The real training comes at home - class only introduces it.
> 
> I had concerns about getting a Poodle at one point, they are high energy and need challenge. It's taken me some reflection and changing to learn how to accommodate my dog's needs - not mine - and he's so laid back. He's the "chill dog" - patient and eager to make me happy. He loves to run and after our walks and his pee and poo - I let him off leash and say RUNNNNnnn and he takes off in the woods then comes back 5 minutes later panting like "where were you?" and sits at the door.
> 
> *I find that I don't have the physical ability to do a lot but I have the smarts to challenge him with commands, tricks, things like that. He will spend an hour with me just playing the "commands game" then nap. I'm got a really good dog!*


Brain work is at least as important as physical work. Good for you for figuring that out. Your smart dog has a smart owner. You are both lucky there.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

WELL today is the day - it's either make or break in the class. I want my Khaos to graduate and move onto the next level. If that other dogs **'s with our time, I'll deal with it.

On a positive note, in the 3 weeks we've attended classes he's learned:
"let's go"...sit...uh-uh...his name...loose leash walking...greeting of people and dogs (so-so on that)...come (sometimes hehehe)...down...take it. On our own, I taught him get it, bring it, drop it, gimme 5, let's go inside (runs to the door and sits)...runnnnn (free run in the yard and woods)...and other stuff I can't think of right now

He's smart and learns so fast. When I feed and water him - he sits and waits without the command and doesn't eat or drink until I say "take it". When I say "let's go pee" he goes to the door and sits to be leashed. This is fun and challenging


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sure you will graduate with flying colors! Then you can be on to bigger and better things (hopefully with all lovely class mates). I am glad you have been able to move past the early difficulties. Good for you and Khaos.


----------



## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

soooo.... How was class?


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

Class went well. As always, he was the shining star - he totally shows up the Border, NOT because he's smarter but because he cares about pleasing me. The Border is into the Border and is slick.

I sat as far from the other dog as possible. The dog started to bark, I distracted mine as he found his bark in the past two weeks and the trainer modeled what to do with the other owners AGAIN and I glared at her. Then she said "seriously, if you actually do what I'm telling you to do, you're dog WILL improve but if you keep ignoring me and shoving treats down his throat telling him to shhhh all you're doing is teaching him to bark". They were set aback but they switched up their approach and started to do what the trainer told them to do.

We learned "come" on a 20 foot lead - Khaos had that in three attempts and I've tied a few leashes together and we do it outside and he's got it. We learned to "wait" at the door until permission and, well, Khaos already knew to wait at the door. Of course, I had to toss in the hand command with the wait but at home and in class, he goes to the door and sits - waits for me to put on my woods boots, leash him and doesn't exit until I say "let's go peeeee" or "lets go playyyyy" or just plain "let's gooooo". He learned "drop it" reluctantly...but today - he was dropping it when I did the hand and voice command.

The biggest challenge in training now is training me to remember to combine hand and voice commands and once he learns the expectation - he's incorporating them into daily life. For example, he now sits and waits for permission to eat and drink with no command until he hears "take it". 

Yea, the other dog was irritating but the bond Khaos and I have gained from our home sessions - well - probably worth it.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> . Agility classes are often very high energy environments. .


he he he I bought a hula hoop and have started getting him to walk through it. I just haven't figured out a voice and hand command yet *duh* but it's fun. If all goes well with his leg, I bet he's jumping through it within a week. :act-up:


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

good work, geri de!


----------



## AluePoodles (Jun 25, 2013)

I know this is a bit older, but I wanted to commend you on speaking out as well.

I took a one on one training class with my Lhasa Apso at the time and I was 19 years old. She was 6 months old and I really had no issues with her, I just wanted to see what else we could learn. The trainer was HORRIBLE!! She would let Kloe jump on her leg, she stuffed her with treats for absolutely no reason (except that she was cute..literally, that was her reason), and even though it was 2 years ago, I literally don't remember one thing we learned in the 2 weeks I went. I was too scared to say anything, so we just stopped going. I actually had to break a lot of negative behaviors she "learned" from her "training class". Wish I would have said something, the trainer could have definitely used the feed back. 

I'm glad your next session went well and hope the BC's owners see the light. Poor pup.


----------



## GeriDe (Mar 2, 2014)

*Graduation day*

Khaos graduated and both of us are so proud. We start intermediate classes in 3 weeks and once his leg is healed, we'll be shooting for some agility if possible.


----------

