# A New PF Member Asked For Help in Color Breeding



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*A new member who can't post yet messaged me with this question that some of you may be able to help her with. To protect her privacy I won't reveal her name. Here's what she asked:*

Because I am new to the group I am unable to post. I wanted to let you now the I currently have a standard silver poodle that genetic panel looks like this:

aa/Bb/DD/EE/KBKY/SsP - Silver
aa/BB/DD/ee/KBKB/SS - Apricot
awa/BB/DD/Ee/KBKB/SS- Black

Now I have currently only bred the Black (dam) and Apricot (Sire) because they are the only 2 I have completely health tested. The silver should be after the first of the year.

I can tell you from the first breeding I had 66% black and 44% cream. The second litter had 77% black, 11% cream and 22% apricot. A total of 71.5 % black, 27.5% cream and 11% apricot. To dive a little further back the black had a blk sire from a brown and apricot, a registered black dam that ended up being blue from a black/black (I never saw the parents and was to uneducated at the time to ask about registration vs actual color) in other words one of these or both has to be blue. The Apricot is out of an apricot sire from an apricot and brown, the dam is apricot from a red and cream.

Now I have been told that if I breed my silver and apricot that I will only have blue and cream possibly a black. I am not sure and this research is actually what brought me to your thread. I hope that I have actually helped in that the Silver is a DD. Her Dam was a silver, and her father was a silver parti.

*Here's my response, and since I'm still a beginner at color coat genetics, PF members please offer her your input.*

I'm fairly visual, so this is what I think you described in the colors of your dogs and their ancestors:



Here's an excerpt from the thread I think she referred to: 


Vita said:


> *Lab #3 - Paw Print Genetics*
> 
> They were really impressive, not just the wealth of information on their site, but the fact that a doctor _called_ me. This summarizes what he said, and I hope I got it right:
> 
> Standard Poodles generally do not have the dd genes. This is sometimes found in miniature and toy poodles. Blues always the dd alleles.


All three of your Spoos have DD alleles, so I don't know why the puppies might turn out blue according to what I've read and been told by experts, but then again, I'm very new at this. I have read that blues are always born blue and that's what one of the lab vet docs told me in an email; you said the mother of your black dog was born black but turned blue. Is it possible that she cleared to a very dark silver or gray and is mistaken for blue? Also your black female has the awa agouti gene, and I have no idea what impact that has on her DNA color, not just the color our eyes see. More on that in a moment.

Next, this color predictor chart from DDC https://www.vetdnacenter.com/files/coat-color-predictor.pdf will give you an idea of what to expect, but the charts don't have the subtleties of the other genes you mentioned.

Here's a close up photo with _*your*_ dogs' DNA.[/COLOR] Look down by the *red dots* for where your male's DNA intersects the other two.



Simplified, it looks like every puppy by your black spoo and apricot spoo will have a 50-50 chance of BB genes for black (includes silver) or in the yellow colors (apricot/cream/red); no browns. 

The puppies by your apricot and silver could be 
1) All black from the BB alleles (these include silvers) with no brown Bb genes, but they'll carry recessive genes, the Ee, for yellows. 
2) Brown but carrying recessive genes for blacks and yellows.

However, if I've learned anything, it's that there's more to color coats than B's and E's.

There's also something interesting about your black having the awa gene. According to Dr. Schmutz, these are 'Wild Type Black Banded Hairs'. Read this link. _I'm guessing_ that the awa gene is masked by other genes at work since she is a BB blackand KBKB.

Also your black and apricot dogs are KBKB and your silver is KBKY. KB is dominant to KY. Here's a very brief summary from Dr. Schmutz's page on the K genes:

"KB is a critical allele in the formation of black pigment in at least 50 breeds... In such breeds, the E locus alone then determines whether the dog is black or red." Scroll to bottom of page: "ky/ky Phenotypes - Dogs which have two recessive alleles (ky/ky) can express a variety of phenotypes... (link)

Your black and apricot dogs have SS alleles which mean no spotting gene. From this link: "This dog carries two copies of S which results in a solid coat with no white spotting, flash, parti, or piebald coat color. This dog will pass on one copy of S to 100% of its offspring."

Your silver is SSp, and you mentioned her mother is a Silver Parti. "This dog carries one copy of S and one copy of sp which results in limited white spotting, flash, parti, or piebald coat color due to the co-dominance of S and sp. This dog will pass on one copy of S to 50% of its offspring and one copy of sp to 50% of its offspring. Interpretation: Limited white spotting, flash, parti, or piebald (Carrier)"

*Help me on this, PF members.* Her silver has the aa/Bb/DD/EE/KBKY/SsP. So she carries the brown gene. She also has a KY recessive gene and SsP parti gene. Is it the KY or the SsP or both that give her the silver color? What am missing?

If teachers learn by teaching, I learned a few new things. Hope this helps you and hopefully other PF members will clarify wherever I'm fuzzy or incorrect or they have better sources, especially on the blues, since dd alleles are rare in Spoos.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Vita said:


> *A new member who can't post yet messaged me with this question that some of you may be able to help her with. To protect her privacy I won't reveal her name. Here's what she asked:*
> 
> Because I am new to the group I am unable to post. I wanted to let you now the I currently have a standard silver poodle that genetic panel looks like this:
> 
> ...


To simplify things a bit, you bred the following two dogs:

BBee - Apricot (sire)
BBEe- Black (dam)

The BB means that neither dog carries the recessive brown gene (b). So neither dog can ever produce a brown puppy, even if bred to a brown dog (bb). Even though there is brown in the pedigrees, your testing has shown that these dogs did not inherit the brown gene. 

The E/e controls whether a poodle will be white, cream, apricot or red. The small e is recessive. So if a poodle is ee it will be be white, cream, apricot or red. If it is EE or Ee it will be the color determined by the B/b -- in your case that is black because the above two dogs are both BB. When I say "black," I actually mean "born black." Clearing to blue or silver is another issue.

The above breeding, the odds that a puppy will be born black are 50%. The odds that a puppy will be born in the white-cream-apricot-red range are 50%. In your experience, 71.5% were born black and 38.5% were cream or apricot. That's just luck. Based on the genetic testing the odds are that 50% of the puppies would be born black.

The genetics that determine where a poodle will fall in the white-cream-apricot-red spectrum are not fully understood. But generally, puppies are that are white-cream-apricot-red are likely to be similar to their parents and/or other poodles in the pedigree.

With regard to black poodles clearing to blue or silver, this is NOT controlled by the D/d. With rare exceptions, all poodles are DD. In breeds where you see dd, the dogs are born blue. But there is no genetic test for the clearing genes that are common in poodles. That is because the clearing genes have not yet been identified. Nevertheless, breeders have observed something about how they work. Basically, if you breed silver to black, you can expect that any puppies that are born black will clear to blue.

BbEE - Silver (dam)
BBee - Apricot (sire)

Your silver bitch carries the brown gene (b). But she can only produce brown puppies if bred to a dog that also carries the brown gene. So there will be no brown puppies in the above breeding. The EE means that your bitch cannot produce any white, cream, apricot or red puppies, no matter who she is bred to. In the above breeding, every puppy will be Ee, and Ee poodles are born black or brown (in this case they will all be born black). There is no test for the fading/clearing gene, but the fact that the poodle is silver lets you know that this parent will pass on a fading gene. If there is any silver or blue in the pedigree of the apricot, then you might get some silver puppies. If not, I would expect all of the puppies to be blue. It can take up to 2 or 3 years for a blue puppy to clear.

Hope this helps. For more information, see the chart on this page. Look at the intersection of row III and column V to see the the colors expected for the mating of your BbEE to your BBee (the results indicated are all black). In this chart, "black" means born black (some black puppies later clear to blue or silver), and "cream" means white, cream, apricot or red.
https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color2.html


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Why is this member not posting herself ? Why protect her identifty ? I find this odd.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Dechi said:


> Why is this member not posting herself ? Why protect her identifty ? I find this odd.


I think there may be a brief period after the initial intro post during which you can't post. Or maybe she just hasn't figured out how to do it. But I do hope that she will identify herself.


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## Lorib64 (Dec 28, 2017)

I could post fairly soon after i posted in the intro forum. Maybe she should contact an admin or someone if she cannot post still


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If the new user with the questions has made an intro post then they should be able to post anywhere. I hope this person will just ask for themselves about these issues.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

When I first joined PF, I was only able to post in the member intro, and only in some of the other sections for a few days. 

She probably thought I would only answer her question in the message system which is why I didn't reveal her identity. While it was fun learning more about silvers and apricots and seeing her color reports, I figured some of you here could give more succinct answers. Although I've learned a lot, I'm hardly an expert. For example, I said that her apricot and silver could make a brown puppy. Wrong! Peppersb explained why that coupling would not make brown pups, and now I see my error that was staring me in the face. 

I'm still curious about the effect of the K alleles and that her silver has Ssp alleles, and her black has a rare awa agouti alleles. I wish we all had color testing on our poodles and could study these while comparing their DNA with how they actually look and how any pups turned out from breedings. That would be a nice learning experience.


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## kbowsher (Dec 29, 2017)

*New member*

Thank you everyone for answering my question. I was not trying to hide my identity, just now able to post. I have been researching for a while in the different color genetics, while I was able to breed my in heat poodle was requesting some information on if I should breed her to my apricot male, or to continue to look for another mate that would be more suitable for the coloring that my potential buyers are looking to obtain. I came across the forum and realized there were many knowledgeable people that I could reach out to, however much to my dismay...I
was unable to actually post until today. I thought possibly by private message I could get an answer, before I lost the good days to breed and make my decision. Thank you everyone for your answers and help.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I hope the appropriate health testing has been done on both sire and dam

for toy poodles it is

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA test from an OFA approved laboratory
Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist (results registered with OFA or CERF)
Patella Luxation: OFA Evaluation 

and that both dam and sire are over the age of two, palleta luxation in some dogs will not be found until then


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with twyla about making sure you have done appropriate health testing. Here is a link to the Poodle Club of America's recommended health tests documentation.

https://www.poodleclubofamerica.org/files/Health_Testing_in_Poodles.pdf

And the particulars for standard poodles.

STANDARD POODLES 
Hip Dysplasia: OFA, OVC or PennHIP Evaluation 
Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist (results registered with OFA or CERF)
Health Elective (one of the following tests): 
OFA Thyroid Evaluation from an approved laboratory 
OFA Sebaceous Adenitis (SA) Evaluation from an approved dermatopathologist 
For Standard Poodles, the PCA Foundation also strongly recommends the following tests from an OFA-approved laboratory:  
DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEWS) 
DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


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## kbowsher (Dec 29, 2017)

*health testing*

Yes, I actually have went above and beyond health testing requirements for standards. I was holding off on her so that I could get OFA hips. Once that is complete I will be getting all of their CHIC numbers. She came in heat a week earlier then expected. That has thrown my timing off for a lot of reasons one being the hips xrays are in a few weeks, now we will need to reschedule moving it up to 30 days post heat, and second we can't begin our next journey to a title until she is out of heat, because she can't take her exit test for this class. The best laid plans:dontknow:

I actually researched a great deal prior to planning my breedings on temperament, conformation, athleticism and obdience/trick line. I also do not breed unless I have a list and know the homes my puppies are placed in. From my previous litter I have actually two completing service school one for the blind, and one to help with balance in a five year old. I have four therapy (not service), but helping with everything from anxiety and depression disorders, visiting the elderly and helping diabetic patients that have uncontrollable (fluctuations) glucose levels. Considering I have only had 12 puppies and 3 of those are not old enough to go to new homes. I think I am breeding responsibly. The ones I still have are already spoken for and I actually have back ups, for all puppies should anyone change their minds. 

My silver poodle is actually from obedience/trick genetics. My apricot is from service and therapy lines. I have some costumers interested in agility, barn hunt etc which is the genetic background of my black female. I have some looking for silvers, blues, or partis. I was trying to decide on the potential mating of the silver and apricot. I decided to hold off at this time. 

I hope this is enough explanation on my breeding program to realize that I have put a lot of thought time and effort into my program.

The puppies also get bio-sensory training day 3-16. I begin litter training them at 3 weeks, this makes them almost house trained when they leave here. They are raised in the house with my family. They are personality tested at day 49. I will not sell a puppy that does not fit what the family is wanting to do with the puppy. Many of them have some basic training before they leave here. 

I do not post online much, because people are very judgmental about things, and many times not so helpful. I came across the post and felt that two members seemed very knowledgeable and helpful so asked my question.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I only ask because I spent $8K fixing my girl Beatrice's knees before she was 3 yrs old, she came from a hobby breeder who didn't test


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## kbowsher (Dec 29, 2017)

So I typed out a big long answer to this, but I guess it is lost in cyber space. 
Short answer. I have appropriately tested above and beyond. We are just waiting on OFA hips for the last female, she came in a week earlier then scheduled.


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## kbowsher (Dec 29, 2017)

I hate to hear that. I can't guarantee a long healthy life for the puppies, but I really am trying my best. If the family isn't happy, my puppy suffers. That is the last thing that I want.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I can only hope that breeder's will weed out what they can of the known conditions by not breeding affected dogs.

Right now my Beatrice is happy and for the first time pain free running around like the young dog she is at 3 1/2


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

*Poodle Colour Genetics*

With our color breedings we have some information, as the members here have effectively expressed, breaking it down for you (BB, Bb, EE, Ee et al). Beyond that, what will dilute and what won't and when it might... 

Barbara Hoopes has been involved in color research and she has started a group on FB - Poodle Color Genetics. It's worth the join if you have serious interest in color.

Best to you.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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