# Toy poodle vaccination question



## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

"Core" vaccines, whether in Canada or the U.S., are optional. Rabies is required by law. Has your puppy had the rabies vaccine yet? If it were my pup, I would not do a fourth round of vaccines and would find another vet, if possible. Just my personal opinion.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Please email Dr. Dodds. She is always quick to respond and will answer your question. I too would not give another vaccine.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

No he hasn't had rabies and I'm going to delay it as much as possible. I'm in California and the law here is 4 months and older; but I'm going to try to delay to 5 months. I talked to his current vet and also called another pet hospital about parvo/distemper titer, they can do the titer test but both told me the same thing "we vaccinate puppies until they are 16-weeks old". So frustrating!


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

I posted a question in Dr. Dodds' site today but the question kept disappearing. Not sure why. I'll try again. Thank you!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Where in Ca are you? I am in the Inland Empire. I found a wonderful vet here that is very receptive to my vaccine protocol. Also, Dr. Dodds is only about 40 minutes from me and I have taken Misha to see her.


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

Hope this article helps, this is my go-to website for questions and answers. Taking the Risk Out of Puppy Shots Dogs Naturally.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

I'm in Fremont (northern california). So nice you are so close to Dr. Dodds. I checked. She's over 6 hours away from me


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Since his first shot was done at 6 weeks old I would do another 4th vaccine at 16 weeks. He was probably still nursing on mom at that point and the vaccine vs moms antibodies from the milk could have cancelled each other out. Either that or you could titer and see what immunity he has now. At my clinic we only count vaccines done at/after 8 weeks old. The other vaccines are only for the breeders "just in case" or "insurance" if they have a lot of people coming and going.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

The breeder is out of California and I think she does have a lot of people coming and going. She did tell me she does 4 shots on her pups...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Since his first shot was done at 6 weeks old I would do another 4th vaccine at 16 weeks. He was probably still nursing on mom at that point and the vaccine vs moms antibodies from the milk could have cancelled each other out. Either that or you could titer and see what immunity he has now. At my clinic we only count vaccines done at/after 8 weeks old. The other vaccines are only for the breeders "just in case" or "insurance" if they have a lot of people coming and going.



Am I correct that it is not the number of vaccines, but the age at which they are vaccinated? In other words, if a puppy had no vaccines, and was healthy, and got their first vaccine at 16 wks, they should have full immunity because their immune system was mature enough to give the desired response to the vaccines? The earlier vaccines are just to give temporary immunity until they are old enough for the last one that most any puppy would have a long lasting immune response to?
If so the only real question would be was 13 weeks old enough.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Tiny that is how I understood it as well. That we keep giving vaccines trying to determine when the mothers antibodies no longer interfere with the vaccine.

I guess Lily would know the answer! lol


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

N2 is right............it all depends on maternal antibodies and hitting the immune system when they wane:


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Here is what Dr Dodds says about vaccinating puppies and kittens. 

"Maternal antibodies are those antibodies that are transferred to the puppy or kitten when they receive colostrum milk from their dam only in the first 36 hours of life. After that, even though the breast milk contains many antibodies as well as wholesome nutrients, these antibodies can no longer cross the neonatal intestinal mucosal lining. The colostrum–derived antibodies gradually wane from birth over the three months and most are gone by the age of 14-16 weeks. Until then, what remains in their body is called “residual maternal antibodies”, which are present in decreasing amounts to help protect the pup or kitten against foreign substances and infectious diseases.
Timing is Critical
Vaccinating these youngsters at too young of an age when they have plenty of residual maternal immunity just causes the vaccine antigen(s) to be partially neutralized so that full immunization is not achieved. Thus, the effect of vaccination is incomplete and the puppy or kitten is still at risk of getting one or more of these diseases until the vaccine series is completed once the maternal antibodies have disappeared.
Conversely, the period of highest vulnerability to infectious diseases is between 10-14 weeks of age. So, puppies need at least one dose of the multivalent vaccine between 9 weeks and before 12 weeks of age, even though it will only partially immunize them. For kittens, they need one dose between 8-9 weeks of age. Please review my canine and feline vaccination protocols for further information.
The “One and Done” Vaccination Protocol Premise
It has been postulated to give puppies or kittens just one dose of multivalent “combo” vaccine at 16 weeks of age, because their maternal immunity will have disappeared and not interfere with complete immunization. It is not safe to leave them unprotected for that long. Maternal immunity will have waned to essentially zero and these puppies will be totally vulnerable to viral diseases.

The link as well
http://drjeandoddspethealthresource...482/maternal-antibodies-vaccines#.U2jZ7PldUWZ


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

sneedle said:


> Hi,
> 
> I got my toy silver boy he was 10-week old. He turns 15-week old today. He received his first puppy shot at the breeder's when he was probably about 6-week old, received his 2nd shot at close to 10-week old at the breeder's vet, and his 3rd puppy shot when he was close to 13-week old after I brought him home (per breeder's schedule). His current vet wants to give him a 4th shot at 16-week old. Since I learned about Dr. Jean Dodds' protocol, I'm unsure what to do about this 4th shot. Should he receive this 4th shot? I'm worried about over-vaccination. Any advise? Thank you!


A 4th shot seems extreme, unless the vet is talking about a rabies vaccine. I would think that the next one should be for rabies, if you decide to go that route. Since the puppy got all of these shots by different people, I would make sure I have all of the paperwork showing the age of the puppy and exactly what vaccine was given.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Here is what Dr Dodds says about vaccinating puppies and kittens.
> 
> "Maternal antibodies are those antibodies that are transferred to the puppy or kitten when they receive colostrum milk from their dam only in the first 36 hours of life. After that, even though the breast milk contains many antibodies as well as wholesome nutrients, these antibodies can no longer cross the neonatal intestinal mucosal lining. The colostrum–derived antibodies gradually wane from birth over the three months and most are gone by the age of 14-16 weeks. Until then, what remains in their body is called “residual maternal antibodies”, which are present in decreasing amounts to help protect the pup or kitten against foreign substances and infectious diseases.
> Timing is Critical
> ...



So then to be on the safe side, another vaccine should be done at 16 weeks, 13 weeks is too early to be certain.
Might ask about titering instead, but I have a feeling that the Vet will say that we have no way of knowing if the immunity will last if the vaccine was before 16 weeks.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I've always vac'd my pups at 8, 12, and 16 weeks then again at 1 yr. ( Rabies I always tried to do approx. 2wks after the 16week vac.) You just don't know the Dam's immune status, or if the pups received an adequate amount of colostrum at birth to get the Dam's immunities...........so you try to hit every mark where there systems will take on the vacs! Every puppy will have a different "window of vulnerability"...............


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> So then to be on the safe side, another vaccine should be done at 16 weeks, 13 weeks is too early to be certain.
> Might ask about titering instead, but I have a feeling that the Vet will say that we have no way of knowing if the immunity will last if the vaccine was before 16 weeks.



From what I understand that is correct. We always try to time it right to get the pup its last booster vax at 16 weeks. On a side note we are extremely cautious in our area because parvovirus is very bad. We tell owners to not take their pup on the ground anywhere (including front yards) until two weeks after the last vaccine and to limit them in one small area of the back yard if they must go outside. Here the wind can blow parvo ridden feces into your yard that a neighbor down the street didn't pick up,or tracked on shoes,or tires, ect. With distemper parvo vax we would rather give one extra vaccine than have a sweet puppy die from parvo. We see that way to often.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> So then to be on the safe side, another vaccine should be done at 16 weeks, 13 weeks is too early to be certain.
> Might ask about titering instead, but I have a feeling that the Vet will say that we have no way of knowing if the immunity will last if the vaccine was before 16 weeks.



Well here is a better answer for the titer question. Again straight from Dr. Dodd's blog 

"Question: How soon after a puppy receives his 16 week shot can a titer be done to verify Parvovirus immunity?
Answer: As residual maternal immunity can last for up to 14 weeks, measuring vaccine serum antibody titers should be at least 3 weeks after the last vaccination and not before 16 weeks of age."

The link (which I might add has some great questions and answers all on vaccines and titers). 

http://drjeandoddspethealthresource.tumblr.com/post/58271237209/titer-vaccine-questions#.UoEbS_msim4


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I've always vac'd my pups at 8, 12, and 16 weeks then again at 1 yr. ( Rabies I always tried to do approx. 2wks after the 16week vac.) You just don't know the Dam's immune status, or if the pups received an adequate amount of colostrum at birth to get the Dam's immunities...........so you try to hit every mark where there systems will take on the vacs! Every puppy will have a different "window of vulnerability"...............


8 weeks, 12 weeks and then 16 weeks is what my vet does. I think that's the norm if an owner acquires the pup at 7 to 8 weeks of age. If the owner doesn't get the pup though until 11 weeks, owner should check to make sure the dog has had at least the one shot.


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

Dr. Ronald Schultz at the University of Wisconsin has been studying duration of immunity since the 1970's, his research is what everyone, including Dr. Dodds, bases their vaccination schedule on including the American Veterinary Medical Association (AVMA) and Canadian Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA). The only reason why the core vaccines are recommended every 3 years instead of 7 is to appease the veterinarians who are losing money on annual vaccinations.

Schultz: Dog vaccines may not be necessary

What is most interesting however, is that Dr. Schultz vaccinates his puppies *ONCE* for *Parvo, Distemper* and *Adenovirus* ONLY, titres 2 weeks later then never vaccinates again (except, he says, rabies as required by law). It is also recommended that each vaccine be given separately at least 2 weeks apart, not as a 3-in-one. If your pup has a reaction, you'll never know what triggered it.

In this video, a the 9:45 mark, Dr. Schultz explains his vaccine protocol for his own pets.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

This is really confusing to me since there are many different views on the subject. I read about the study done in this post What's So Risky About Puppy Shots?. My understanding on this is either vaccinate the puppy once at 12 to 16 weeks of age with a high titer vaccine and be REALLY careful about not letting pups out prior to that, or vaccinate the pup at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and again at 16 weeks. My boy got his first vaccine at 6 weeks and 2nd shot 3 days before he turned 10 weeks old at the breeder's. I wish I didn't give him the 3rd shot 3 days before he turned 13 weeks. But what's is done is done. Now looks like I can't really avoid the 4th shot when he turns 16 weeks next Monday. I'm frustrated but I don't see other options. 

Thank you all for your comments and valuable suggestions. This is my very first poodle and I have so much to learn...


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

sneedle said:


> I wish I didn't give him the 3rd shot 3 days before he turned 13 weeks. But what's is done is done. Now looks like I can't really avoid the 4th shot when he turns 16 weeks next Monday. I'm frustrated but I don't see other options.
> 
> Thank you all for your comments and valuable suggestions. This is my very first poodle and I have so much to learn...


Your other option is to titre and see if any of the vaccines triggered an immune response in your pup. It's the safest option, IMO. 

My old vet only charged $60 to titre Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvovirus and Parainfluenza (DHPP). Call around, find an holistic Veterinarian in your area if possible. I don't know about the U.S. but here in Canada, all of the holistic Veterinarians were trained allopathically first then after practicing for years, turned to holistic medicine for one reason or another.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

The closest holistic vet is 50 minutes away from me and my puppy won't stand a car ride that long. Parvo/Distemper titer cost from $110 to $165, which I don't mind. However both hospital told me they advise against not giving him shots until he reaches 16 weeks.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

sneedle said:


> This is really confusing to me since there are many different views on the subject. I read about the study done in this post What's So Risky About Puppy Shots?. My understanding on this is either vaccinate the puppy once at 12 to 16 weeks of age with a high titer vaccine and be REALLY careful about not letting pups out prior to that, or vaccinate the pup at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and again at 16 weeks. My boy got his first vaccine at 6 weeks and 2nd shot 3 days before he turned 10 weeks old at the breeder's. I wish I didn't give him the 3rd shot 3 days before he turned 13 weeks. But what's is done is done. Now looks like I can't really avoid the 4th shot when he turns 16 weeks next Monday. I'm frustrated but I don't see other options.
> 
> Thank you all for your comments and valuable suggestions. This is my very first poodle and I have so much to learn...


Don't worry, you will learn as you go along. We all start somewhere. 

Unless there are qualified vets or vet techs on this forum, then everyone else is going by their own personal experience, and/or learning experiences. So you'll do fine. Just gather up what people have said, and make the best informative decision possible for your pup. The most important thing you can do as a new dog owner is find a vet whom you can trust with your dog's life, and then you'll be all set.

Good luck, and congratulations on your new baby!


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

Thank you Kathy!


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I would like to add that disagreeing with my vet about vaccine protocol is not a deal breaker for me. The deal breaker is whether or not my vet is willing to follow Dodd's protocol, with my animals per my wishes.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> Please email Dr. Dodds. She is always quick to respond and will answer your question. I too would not give another vaccine.


I got a response from Dr. Dodds. She agreed that my puppy has received too many vaccines, but the early 6 week dose was inadequate to immunize him and introduced the other vaccine materials, and the last dose should be at or just after 14 weeks of age. My pup's 3rd shot was done prior to that at around 13-weeks of age (again I want to kick myself. I wish I had checked Dr. Dobbs' protocol first and not just followed breeder's schedule. but in order to attend the puppy class I had to show the school prove of 2 vaccines and there's no paper record for the 1st shot since it was done by the breeder). In any case that 4th shot is necessary. She did suggest if my vet could just give a half-dose since they have recently completed 1/ 2 dose vaccine trial in small breed adult dogs the result showed that they were fully immunized by this amount of booster. My vet isn't that flexible. Time to look for a new vet.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

My vet would do it in a hot second. I guess you need to try to find one with a more holistic background. I know it is hard to find one!

I'm glad Dr. Dodds answered you!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

sneedle said:


> I got a response from Dr. Dodds. She agreed that my puppy has received too many vaccines, but the early 6 week dose was inadequate to immunize him and introduced the other vaccine materials, and the last dose should be at or just after 14 weeks of age. My pup's 3rd shot was done prior to that at around 13-weeks of age (again I want to kick myself. I wish I had checked Dr. Dobbs' protocol first and not just followed breeder's schedule. but in order to attend the puppy class I had to show the school prove of 2 vaccines and there's no paper record for the 1st shot since it was done by the breeder). In any case that 4th shot is necessary. She did suggest if my vet could just give a half-dose since they have recently completed 1/ 2 dose vaccine trial in small breed adult dogs the result showed that they were fully immunized by this amount of booster. My vet isn't that flexible. Time to look for a new vet.



Glad to hear that they completed that trial, my Vet did half doses on the core vaccines. Wish they would do it on rabies though - she refused to do half a dose of rabies :-(


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## Tabatha (Apr 21, 2015)

sneedle said:


> She did suggest if my vet could just give a half-dose since they have recently completed 1/ 2 dose vaccine trial in small breed adult dogs the result showed that they were fully immunized by this amount of booster.


I would love to see the results of that study, I've never heard of it before, was it done by Dr. Schultz?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

No, it is being done by Dr. Jean Dodds and Dr. Palmquist.


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## sneedle (Jun 2, 2015)

Tabatha said:


> I would love to see the results of that study, I've never heard of it before, was it done by Dr. Schultz?


I'm not sure where to find the results of the trail, but here's the response I got from Dr. Jean Dodds. 

"Perhaps your veterinarian could just give him just a half- dose now, as our recently completed 1/ 2 dose vaccine trial in small breed adult dogs showed that they were fully immunized by this amount of booster (Dodds, WJ; JAHVMA , in press, 2015) "


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know that the results have been published yet.


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