# Meeting a puppy ..... need advice...



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

How exciting - it's always an emotional time. If you are concerned about any red flags, I would take someone who will be strong enough to walk away, who isn't so emotionally invested and you will follow their recommendation. 

All puppies are cute and it's hard to walk away from a sweet puppy even if it has serious health or emotional issues you were not aware of and not prepared to deal with.

Lots of things you should do in preparation before meeting the pup. 

Are the parents titled in any dog sports or conformation proving that they are good representatives of the breed? Have both parents had all the health tested recommended by the Poodle Club of America which oversees the breed? https://poodleclubofamerica.org/poodle-information-online/ Usually these results are posted on line so if you know the parents names you can look up the results. These are the quality puppies that you want to purchase for a pet dog.

Have you read through this section?








Buying a puppy safely - the basics


We have many discussions on here as to what constitutes a really good breeder, and rightly set our standards very high. In an ideal world, everyone would be prepared to research carefully, to build a relationship with an excellent breeder, and be ready to wait as long as it took for the right...




www.poodleforum.com





Most of us because of Covid have been on long waiting lists for puppies from quality breeders - and *you definitely *want a quality breeder who carefully planned breedings. These breeders don't breed a lot of dogs each year and generally don't have puppies easily available. If you just decided to buy a puppy recently and found this one quickly - that is a huge red flag that it's probably a puppy mill puppy.

*You don't want a puppy mill puppy* - often the parents don't meet the breed standards or may even be poodle mixes passed off as pure poodles (we see people here asking if their puppy is purebred after they paid for the puppy and it's too late) Puppy mill breeding stock are poorly treated, sometimes the mother is housed in a tiny crate kept inside a barn and the puppies are not socialized, loved and that poor start in life can affect them their whole life. You also don't want to encourage or pay a puppy mill. If everyone stopped buying puppy mill puppies, they would go out of business - which would be a good thing for dogs. Don't be fooled by a middle man selling puppies either - where they take the puppies to their home and pretend they were raised in their house and not in a cage. You should expect to see the mother, and possible the father of your puppy. 

You should expect to get the AKC or UKC (united Kennel Club) puppies so you can register your puppy. Do not accept any other registry - they are all fake designed to trick you. 

If you are discovering that this puppy is a puppy mill puppy, I would cancel the meeting. 

If you have done your due dilligence, then yes you should expect to go meet and pay for your puppy and take it home to love and raise it. This is what I have done with my two minipoos - I paid in full when I went to pick up my puppy. I had done my homework, knew who the breeder was and what kinds of dogs they were breeding. I was comfortable and ready to pay before I even met my puppy.

Good luck- please let us know how it went. If you don't take this puppy home, we have resources to help you find a puppy.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Thanks so much....  I am reasonably sure this is not a puppy mill. The only red flag is that there were puppies and not a wait list. I'll keep everyone posted! There was a second puppy that came available (after I made this appointment) but is a bit of a drive for me and the breeder did not get back to me on the particulars yet. Hoping for the best!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I would go, and be prepared to bring home the puppy. In a similar situation, I brought someone with me to be the voice of reason. 

See the mom's temperament and how the puppies interact with the breeder, check out how the puppy is being raised, talk about socialization, etc - but if you are confident with the breeder, I would go! 

I would run to a pet store and pick up anything you need and keep the receipt before you go and possibly try to arrange a puppy wellness check before you go. 

Source: Picked up Annie less than a week after I started looking for a puppy when I found a litter with puppies still available. I decided to get her on Saturday morning, ran around like mad getting ready, and picked her up Sunday.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Genny, my current puppy was a surprise for us. We were supposed to get from a later breeding, and not the litter he came from. I had been sent pictures of his litter but the breeder told me they were all spoken for and we were on the list for the next. 

It's not unusual for people to change their mind - maybe they got a puppy elsewhere or their lifestyle changed etc. The breeder told me she indeed did have one puppy left if I wanted him I could have him instead of waiting. We drove up the next day and brought our puppy home. I had an old cage but no pen, I had toys but no time to buy puppy food.

Do ask the breeder for a couple of days of puppy food so you have time to find and buy the same food. Those first few days you can improvise as you purchase what you need. I ordered from Amazon and most items came in a day or two, other's I picked up at a local pet shop. Within two days I have every thing I needed and I don't think my puppy suffered because I didn't have weeks to prepare.

If you did your homework and you're happy with the breeder - then I'm thrilled and look forward to puppy pictures if you purchase this puppy.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

If you have time (today!? How exciting!) you might look at the Volhard test.




__





Choosing Your Puppy (PAT) | Volhard Dog Nutrition


Not sure who's the right dog for you? Use the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test in selecting your dog, whether a puppy or an older dog.




www.volharddognutrition.com





Of course, it won’t be 100% accurate. You’re not going to take your pen and pad and pot lid and umbrella and go step by step, and they’re not the ideal age if you might be bringing home today. But I do think a basic understand and some of the simple tests are very useful if you do get to pick from more than one pup. I do call the puppies, see if they chase/bring back, sudden movement (startle) and roll over. I did this with Starla’s litter and she was the perfect fit for our family. With Phoebe, I only had 2 to choose from, and it was much more that the other girl was not right for our family than Phoebe was perfect. (The love is the same though.) I like the “testing” because it helps you not fall for THAT PUPPY right away. The one that comes right up to everybody. THAT PUPPY might be great for you (we love her), but you need to know that you made the right choice. If you have any doubts, ask the breeder which they would recommend.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Try to lead with your head over your heart.


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## Jazztoon (May 27, 2010)

Just make sure that not only it's not a puppy mill, but that's it's also a decently good breeder that has done health testing and that is at least known in the breeding world somewhat. My friend got a dog (not poodle, but a pure bred of another kind) from someone he thought was not a puppy mill, but turned out they just didn't have him go to the puppy mill - they went to someone's home and it looked legit to him. However, he didn't ask for health testing info and documentation nor look up AKC registration, etc. Long story short, after paying $2k for the puppy, he found that pup had severe orthopedic health issues. By then he was in love with the little buy and spent almost $10k of his own savings with surgeries and rehab. He loves his dog and the little guy is sweet, but it's not something you want to go through (and most can't afford it). This case is probably extreme - I imagine most scenarios turn out just fine, but a puppy from the wrong place can end up costing you so much more, just know that. So go in with an open heart, but also a clear head  If you google the breeder or ask/ search here, you might start to get a sense of how legit they are / their reputation.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

My advice would be to make sure the breeder ticks all your most important boxes before you even head out to look at the puppy. Breed-appropriate health testing, early socialization, all the stuff that will ensure your puppy is getting the best possible start to life.

Personally, I’d have a hard time walking away from a heart-meltingly cute puppy. So I wouldn’t put myself into that situation unless I was sure about the breeder.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Great advice. I have noticed that while some breeders were waitlisting long into the future last year, around here some reputable breeders are having occasional puppies available again because of larger than expected litters, timing/planning for the families on waitlists etc. In general it feels like the puppy boom is ending, with it being fairly easy to get an inexpensive impulse puppy from a puppy mill or backyard breeder - the inflated prices from 2020 have fallen as well (certainly some waitlists have shrunk because families did not wait). So just to say, availability on its own may not be a red flag if you are confident in other ways about the breeder.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

Lots of good advice given. Joey’s breeder had all the boxes checked for us and she just happened to have an available pup, our Joey. Normally she has waitlists. We just happened to look at her website at the right time. We had connected with her early summer but we decided at the time not to be put on the wait list because we weren’t 100 percent sure what kind of dog we wanted yet. We had been talking a second dog for a year though so it really wasn’t a quick decision. Our heads were clear and the total second dog decision was well thought through. We were ready as were ever could be, Bobby is the perfect age and Joey was available. He was held back because he was the pick of the litter but the breeder decided to let him go at 13 weeks, when we got him. So yes, a good breeder generally has waiting lists but every once in awhile a pup does become immediately available. It does seem the puppy craze during Covid lockdowns has definitely slowed down.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Probably be good to have someone else there to speak some sense into you just incase lol.

Puppy fever is contagious


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

What can you tell us about the breeder and puppy? You've already got all the advice you need unless you have any other details? Remember that all puppies are irresistible! [emoji7]


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

okay, so sadly it was a no go....I did a ton of reading before I went to meet the puppies and the breeder so I had some idea about what to look for and what would constitute red flags, etc. and though I am still mourning my last dog and though the puppies were as cute as can be (and I had cash with me to buy one) I was able to keep my head about me...

Here's what happened..... due to COVID the visit was outside (not a red flag because honestly, I don't like going into any places right now) but I fully expected the visit to be in a place where the puppies could frolic and play. Instead it was on a patio (there was a fenced in yard but we didn't go there and I could not see the backyard, which also could be a red flag because the puppies could have been kept out there for all I know.) So out come the puppies - there were two. One was given to me and one the person I brought with me. There was a very small popup pen as well but not enough room for them to run or play. 

The puppies were sweet and tiny and at first I didn't see any faults with them...

When I put them down they were in a tiny playpen so I could not really see how they walked or ran or anything but I wanted to see them play. There were no toys so I asked if they had a toy they could play with. The breeder brought out a toy. The pups had zero interest in it (even seemed startled by it at first) The toy also seemed too large for them (but that is just a guess on my part) Regardless they didn't seem at all interested in it.

I asked to see the parents.... Both parents were carried out by the breeder/not put on the ground. First I met the mother. The breeder grabbed her snout and said "be nice" to her as I reached over to pet her. She was described as "2" years old but she seemed older than that to me. Turns out this was that dog's first litter ( a red flag)

Next came the father. He didn't seem overly friendly and quite frankly looked a bit large for a toy. 

The breeder was very vague about how much any of them weighed... (a red flag, I would think) even the puppies didn't have exact weights (though she told me they were vet cleared the day before) When I asked how many pups were in the litter she paused a minute and then said 2.

The puppies were nicely trimmed and seemed clean but I noticed one of the puppies was itching a lot... and the other itching once in a while. The one that was itching a lot was also whining and making noises. The breeder said the pup was jealous of the other one but I have a feeling there was another reason for the noises....(more on that below)

I asked about the parental health testing. The father had been tested but.... Turns out the mom's testing has been delayed or lost or something - something about a swab and not having results in time, etc. but that both puppies had been tested (I have read this is not the norm) When I pressed a bit about hip displacia (sorry not sure how that is spelled) she told me that toys don't get that - they just have knee problems and that one of the puppies,(the one that had been making all of the little noises) had a "loose knee" - but the other had two tight ones... (Shouldn't this have been something I was told right up front? Should a pup with a loose knee be on the market?)

Finally I asked about the next steps and was there a contract I would sign if I decided to get a puppy, etc......

Nope... no contract, nothing.... and she never showed me any paperwork on ANY of the dogs.... nothing...

So I left... and after speaking with my companion about what I was thinking they agreed completely with my assessment. It would have been amazing to find my new little friend today but unfortunately I was not comfortable buying a puppy from this breeder. This could end up being a long journey I guess... but I won't give up. It's a little tough to travel right now (thanks COVID) so hopefully something turns up locally.... 

Thanks everyone for your comments...


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## spicandspan (Apr 21, 2018)

Congrats!! I am in the same boat, the breeder (Cystalton Standard Poodles) happened to have a couple of puppies available. The breeder is well known in Western Canada and also is a dog show judge. We won't have a chance to see the puppy until Gotcha Day as it's over 9 hours away. I wish you all the best! Trust your gut.

EDIT: Just saw your update. I'm so sorry. I'm sure you were right to walk away. I'm sure the right pup will come along!


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Wow. I know it’s a big bummer, but I’m glad you were able to make the best long-term decision for yourself. The right puppy from the right breeder WILL come along.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Sorry it didn't work out. The "loose knee" issue sealed the (non) deal.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This was a learning experience, I suppose. But so disappointing. I’m sorry.  I hope those dogs are all well cared for.

Here’s a good resource to help you get your health testing questions answered prior to meeting:






Toy Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> This was a learning experience, I suppose. But so disappointing. I’m sorry.  I hope those dogs are all well cared for.
> 
> Here’s a good resource to help you get your health testing questions answered prior to meeting:
> 
> ...


Thanks! Same here... I literally fell in love with one of them but it would kill me if I brought home a puppy that turned out to be unhealthy (and especially if I had some reason to think this could happen too.) This was the first litter of the sire and dam and I read somewhere that it's not a good idea to pick from the first litter. And, though the pup was friendly and sweet, the parents weren't, which is not a good sign.

When I got my last poodle (17 years ago!!!) I still remember how sweet and well behaved his mother was and how playful and happy he was. The breeder had all of the records on both parents and detailed records on the puppy from the day it was born. I saw all of this stuff before I said I would buy the pup - it was something she showed me without me even asking. Today I felt like a dentist extracting teeth trying to get any information at all about the dogs... I could be wrong but I don't think it should be that way...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Sorry it didn't work out. It seems very weird the breeder had to think about how many puppies were in the litter. Not having the health test results back, and breeding anyway - ugh. I agree the lack of playfulness is a red flag, though perhaps the puppies were exhausted and needed a nap. Patella problems are more common than hip problems in toys, so the breeder isn't wrong there. But, yeah, it would be nice to know if the pup is at risk of needing major corrective surgery. The itchiness and whining might have been due to razor burn if the puppies had just been groomed. Then again, it could be another problem.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Sorry it didn't work out. The "loose knee" issue sealed the (non) deal.


yea... that and all the scratching.....


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Sorry it didn't work out. It seems very weird the breeder had to think about how many puppies were in the litter. Not having the health test results back, and breeding anyway - ugh. I agree the lack of playfulness is a red flag, though perhaps the puppies were exhausted and needed a nap. Patella problems are more common than hip problems in toys, so the breeder isn't wrong there. But, yeah, it would be nice to know if the pup is at risk of needing major corrective surgery. The itchiness and whining might have been due to razor burn if the puppies had just been groomed. Then again, it could be another problem.


Ah, so the testing is supposed to happen BEFORE dogs are bred???


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Glad you followed your instincts and backed out. Non friendly parents would be a major dealbreaker for me, as would the breeder being withholding about information that should be standard to provide. sounds like bad vibes all around. You will find your puppy though and they will be worth the wait!


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Jazztoon said:


> Just make sure that not only it's not a puppy mill, but that's it's also a decently good breeder that has done health testing and that is at least known in the breeding world somewhat. My friend got a dog (not poodle, but a pure bred of another kind) from someone he thought was not a puppy mill, but turned out they just didn't have him go to the puppy mill - they went to someone's home and it looked legit to him. However, he didn't ask for health testing info and documentation nor look up AKC registration, etc. Long story short, after paying $2k for the puppy, he found that pup had severe orthopedic health issues. By then he was in love with the little buy and spent almost $10k of his own savings with surgeries and rehab. He loves his dog and the little guy is sweet, but it's not something you want to go through (and most can't afford it). This case is probably extreme - I imagine most scenarios turn out just fine, but a puppy from the wrong place can end up costing you so much more, just know that. So go in with an open heart, but also a clear head  If you google the breeder or ask/ search here, you might start to get a sense of how legit they are / their reputation.


I'd be the same way.... I'd end up with huge vet bills because once I home a dog, I get attached and the dog becomes a member of the family. If God forbid they had something seriously wrong with them and died young it would kill me. There are no guarantees in life but I'm going to do everything in my power to get a healthy pup


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so sorry it didn’t work out but it looks like you dodged a bullet. I saw a lot of red flags as you described what you saw. 

Now you can focus on finding a quality breeder who is breeding healthy, happy puppies that are friendly and playful. The kind of puppy that when you pick up your puppy you won’t have these concerns.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Genny said:


> Ah, so the testing is supposed to happen BEFORE dogs are bred???


Progressive Retinal Atrophy is a recessive, so I'd certainly want to know if either dog was a carrier before the breeding. A single copy of mutated gene won't affect the health of the puppies, but I wouldn't breed a carrier unless the dog was absolutely stellar in all other regards. It doesn't sound like the two parents were what I'd call stellar.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

The number of puppies thing is the least red-flaggy red flags to me. Phoebes breeder (an excellent breeder!) was a bit weird about the number of girls, but it’s because they were at the co-breeder (she didn’t see them every day) and she was keeping one. So if we talked, she would say “uhhhhh 2”. There were 3 girls, but she was keeping one, so though I asked ‘how many puppies’, she answered ‘how many are there for you to look at’, and it took a second for her to remember.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Genny said:


> Ah, so the testing is supposed to happen BEFORE dogs are bred???


Yes, I was confused about this too. Health testing is for the breeding pair. Rarely are puppies tested in this way. I’ve noticed that some less responsible breeders seem to purposely confuse health testing with vet checkups. The puppy with the “loose knee” probably had that diagnosed at his check up. Health testing is supposed to prevent dogs with problems from passing them on, or at least for breeders to be informed about the dogs before breeding them. BTW I didn’t learn most of this until after I got my dog, who I adore but who was probably not carefully bred.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Progressive Retinal Atrophy is a recessive, so I'd certainly want to know if either dog was a carrier before the breeding. A single copy of mutated gene won't affect the health of the puppies, but I wouldn't breed a carrier unless the dog was absolutely stellar in all other regards. It doesn't sound like the two parents were what I'd call stellar.


Good to know.... definitely learning a lot thanks to this, which is a good thing


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Such wise evaluating and decision making, and in a tough environment. Good on you, Genny 💐.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Genny said:


> Ah, so the testing is supposed to happen BEFORE dogs are bred???


Exactly right. Prospective dams and sires get tested. If there are findings which rule them out from pairing with a prospective mate, the breeding ought never occur.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Genny said:


> okay, so sadly it was a no go....I did a ton of reading before I went to meet the puppies and the breeder so I had some idea about what to look for and what would constitute red flags, etc. and though I am still mourning my last dog and though the puppies were as cute as can be (and I had cash with me to buy one) I was able to keep my head about me...
> 
> Here's what happened..... due to COVID the visit was outside (not a red flag because honestly, I don't like going into any places right now) but I fully expected the visit to be in a place where the puppies could frolic and play. Instead it was on a patio (there was a fenced in yard but we didn't go there and I could not see the backyard, which also could be a red flag because the puppies could have been kept out there for all I know.) So out come the puppies - there were two. One was given to me and one the person I brought with me. There was a very small popup pen as well but not enough room for them to run or play.
> 
> ...


You did absolutely the right thing walking away, sadly I'm sure for those pups future. Whatever that person was to those dogs, they are not a good breeder. To not be able to instantly say how many pups in the litter (unless one or more died and they hesitated to say, or there were so many litters they had to stop and think, to not know the weight, to...), to offer excuses about any testing, never mind the appropriate testing, the puppies simple lack of puppy behaviors, the....

The breeder you'll be comfortable with and trust is out there, and they'll have your puppy for you. This is exactly why the in person visit is so important. It's what you see and feel about the breeder, the dogs, and how they live. It's also what you don't see and feel.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder.* The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*
There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions. Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.
CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements

*Toy Poodle*

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.



*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

DNA Panels. These do not replace the OFA/CHIC testing. They are companion testing to it.

*Disease Panels
Toy Poodle Essential Panel*

Select Panel*Best Price!* Select this panel for only *$260.00*
_A $320.00 value_Why add this panel?
Why are panels discounted?


Click the test name to learn more*Degenerative Myelopathy*
*Aliases:* Canine degenerative myelopathy, DM*Osteochondrodysplasia*
*Aliases:* Skeletal dwarfism, OCD*Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration*
*Aliases:* PRA-PRCD, PRCD*Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Rod-Cone Dysplasia 4*
*Aliases:* PRA-rcd4
*Toy Poodle Supplemental Panel*

Select Panel*Best Price!* Select this panel for only *$210.00*
_A $240.00 value_Why add this panel?
Why are panels discounted?


Click the test name to learn more*Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome (Variants 1 and 2)*
*Aliases:* EDS*Multidrug Resistance 1*
*Aliases:* Ivermectin sensitivity, MDR1 gene defect, Multidrug sensitivity, MDR1*Von Willebrand Disease I*
*Aliases:* Pseudohemophilia, Vascular hemophilia, von Willebrand disease type 1, von Willebrand's disease, VWDI
*Disease Tests
Additional Disease Tests for Toy Poodle*

Click the test name to learn more*Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) with or without Chondrodysplasia (CDPA)*
*Aliases:* CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc Disease*GM2 Gangliosidosis (Poodle Type)*
*Aliases:* Sandhoff disease, Type 0 gangliosidosis*Hereditary Cataracts*
*Aliases:* Early onset cataracts, Juvenile cataracts, HC, JC*Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures*
*Aliases:* NEWS


If you have the kennel name or the dam/sire registered name or registry number you can look up the testing yourself.

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if *the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.


Remember too, to avoid poodles with shorter than normal legs. This is a genetic mutation that can cause serious life altering medical issues. Those tests are in the DNA panel.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

It's really hard to walk away but I think you made the right choice. Some of the individual red flags could be explained away but taken overall, there is definitely some concern.
I visited three breeders before I got Raffi and I found it helped me clarify in my mind what was normal or not ideal. 
Like you, I had one where the pups were shown in a small contained area, they did not exhibit normal puppy play, I did not get to see where they were kept, and she only showed me the parents from a distance.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> You did absolutely the right thing walking away, sadly I'm sure for those pups future. Whatever that person was to those dogs, they are not a good breeder. To not be able to instantly say how many pups in the litter (unless one or more died and they hesitated to say, or there were so many litters they had to stop and think, to not know the weight, to...), to offer excuses about any testing, never mind the appropriate testing, the puppies simple lack of puppy behaviors, the....
> 
> The breeder you'll be comfortable with and trust is out there, and they'll have your puppy for you. This is exactly why the in person visit is so important. It's what you see and feel about the breeder, the dogs, and how they live. It's also what you don't see and feel.


I agree completely.... this could take a while but I do plan to have the dog a very long time so I know it will all be worth it in the end (when I am constantly posting pics of the puppy I do end up with)


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Genny said:


> okay, so sadly it was a no go....I did a ton of reading before I went to meet the puppies and the breeder so I had some idea about what to look for and what would constitute red flags, etc. and though I am still mourning my last dog and though the puppies were as cute as can be (and I had cash with me to buy one) I was able to keep my head about me...
> . . .
> So I left... and after speaking with my companion about what I was thinking they agreed completely with my assessment. It would have been amazing to find my new little friend today but unfortunately I was not comfortable buying a puppy from this breeder. This could end up being a long journey I guess... but I won't give up. It's a little tough to travel right now (thanks COVID) so hopefully something turns up locally....


I am so very glad you were able to walk away instead of losing your heart to a puppy. It just makes me crazy that people irresponsibly breed dogs who should have been neutered because they carry hereditary defects. 

I am keeping my fingers crossed that you find a really nice, healthy puppy!


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Starvt said:


> It's really hard to walk away but I think you made the right choice. Some of the individual red flags could be explained away but taken overall, there is definitely some concern.
> I visited three breeders before I got Raffi and I found it helped me clarify in my mind what was normal or not ideal.
> Like you, I had one where the pups were shown in a small contained area, they did not exhibit normal puppy play, I did not get to see where they were kept, and she only showed me the parents from a distance.


Thanks! When the right one comes along it will be all the more sweet


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I am so very glad you were able to walk away instead of losing your heart to a puppy. It just makes me crazy that people irresponsibly breed dogs who should have been neutered because they carry hereditary defects.
> 
> I am keeping my fingers crossed that you find a really nice, healthy puppy!


Thanks so much!!!!!!!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

One thing to keep in mind for future visits is that puppies of that age go through frequent sleep-wake cycles. So a meek and sleepy poodle might be the life of the party ten minutes later and vice versa. Peggy climbed all over us for an hour and then passed out in my arms. If I’d seen just one “version” of her or the other, I’d not have gotten an accurate picture of her temperament.

This is where relying on the breeder’s assessment of their own litter—and being able to trust them—becomes extra important.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> One thing to keep in mind for future visits is that puppies of that age go through frequent sleep-wake cycles. So a meek and sleepy poodle might be the life of the party ten minutes later and vice versa. Peggy climbed all over us for an hour and then passed out in my arms. If I’d seen just one “version” of her or the other, I’d not have gotten an accurate picture of her temperament.
> 
> This is where relying on the breeder’s assessment of their own litter—and being able to trust them—becomes extra important.


They were awake but they had no where to run to and nothing to play with. So I was either holding them or watching them in a tiny pen. You can't really evaluate a poodle that is penned in. The pen was no more than 2' in diameter. There was no way to call the pup and see if it responded (or if it limped)


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

A sensible but difficult decision. Good luck in your upcoming search for your next four legged friend


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It's a little further than you originally wanted to travel, but it might be worth reaching out to Simmetry Toy Poodles in Massachusetts. The owner was formerly the president of the Poodle Club of Massachusetts. Actually, I might as well just give you the link to the Toy Breeder page on their web site. Poodle Club of Massachusetts


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Genny said:


> They were awake but they had no where to run to and nothing to play with. So I was either holding them or watching them in a tiny pen. You can't really evaluate a poodle that is penned in. The pen was no more than 2' in diameter. There was no way to call the pup and see if it responded (or if it limped)


Yeah, that wasn’t a good situation at all. I’m sorry.  We were lucky to meet Peggy in a large yard. We were delighted to see her toddle her way alllllll the way to the far fence to potty and then toddle her way back to the group.

I’m hoping your next breeder experience is a better one.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

cowpony said:


> It's a little further than you originally wanted to travel, but it might be worth reaching out to Simmetry Toy Poodles in Massachusetts. The owner was formerly the president of the Poodle Club of Massachusetts. Actually, I might as well just give you the link to the Toy Breeder page on their web site. Poodle Club of Massachusetts


Thanks so much! Following all leads at this point


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Minie said:


> A sensible but difficult decision. Good luck in your upcoming search for your next four legged friend


Thanks


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I think you dodged a bullet there. If you meet the parent dogs and don't love their temperaments then you don't want to risk it with a puppy that will probably have the same temperament. With toy poodles it's patellar luxation that's a big orthopedic issue rather than hip dysplasia. So untested parents would be a no go for me. I think it was a good learning experience because next time you will know the questions to ask so you don't have to reach the point where your heartstrings are being tugged. It is so worth the wait for a well bred puppy and you will be so happy when you find your match.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

What is a reasonable price for a toy poodle pup right now? Does the price go down as their age goes up? (Does a 4 month old pup cost less than a 2 month old?) Also should I expect to pay less or more for a mini?
I'm getting prices all over the place (from 2K - 5K) for a pup. 
Thanks!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm not an expert, and it depends, just 2 seems a bit low and 5 quite high. Guessing a sweet spot might be in the 2.5 to maaaaybe 4ish range.

I really suggest looking through the supported breeders list thread here. Tons of good experience.

Something else you can do is reach out to Poodle clubs on your state and neighboring ones, and contact the breeder referral person for advice and info. And also consider an all breed club, because the reputable, responsible breeder world is smaller than one might think, and people know or know of others in the fancy to a several degree separation.

An example. A confirmed Bernese Mountain Dog fancier whom I've known online for many years, and with whom I share a real life friend in another breed, is on the opposite coast from me. If I went to him for a Toy group breeder referral, he'd likely rattle off two or three options off the top of his head. Toy group clubs occasionally may still be out there, and if you find one anywhere in the country, it's worth an inquiry - even just to ask for advice on searching. Maybe two or three steps or paths to follow. Like direct flights are not nonstop 😉.

Finally, another way. Go to some dog shows and after people finish in the ring, ask if you can ask them about the best way to look for your puppy, if they know who might be planning a litter. Be extremely polite, it's a be a student moment. These are the senior professors in the dog world 👩‍🎓. Not tons of questions or the third degree, just say how long it's been and you are hoping to find your next Toy, and you know a lot has changed. If you'd like to PM me for help locating shows or ask here, you are most welcome to do that. I've stayed in lurk mode a long time, but am logging in more often now. Take care. I know you are missing having your special companion 😥. They bring so much.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Genny said:


> What is a reasonable price for a toy poodle pup right now? Does the price go down as their age goes up? (Does a 4 month old pup cost less than a 2 month old?) Also should I expect to pay less or more for a mini?
> I'm getting prices all over the place (from 2K - 5K) for a pup.
> Thanks!


Two thousand is a bit low; five thousand is extremely high. Average is $2500 - $3500, I think. The price does should not go down for an older puppy. These are prices for most pure bred dogs, including poodles. Toys are likely to be at the higher end of the scale simply because there are fewer pups per litter.

What is really, really important is that the puppies come from generations of health-tested stock. The testing for toy poodles should include:

DNA Test for prcd-Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)from an OFA-approved laboratory.
Yearly Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist.
Patellar Luxation: OFA Evaluation.
And here is the list of testing for miniature poodles:

DNA Test for prcd-Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)from an OFA-approved laboratory.
Yearly Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO veterinary ophthalmologist.
Patellar Luxation: OFA Evaluation.
Hip Dysplasia: OFA or PennHIP Evaluation
If you find the parents and grandparents listed on the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) web site, you can feel sure that the breeder is making a good effort to produce dogs that are free from hereditary diseases.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Something to consider, also, is that breeders within easy driving distance of a large expensive city might charge more than breeders in less affluent areas.


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