# Seizures skip a generation....???



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I posted this here because a client of mine ended up having a litter of Toy/Mini Poodles. I was against this but these are not my dogs. The sire was to be a Toy but grew up to be 14" he is under 1 year of age & has no health testing. He has the past 6 months had seizures. The first time he had 4 in one night. It has happened a few more times. Vet said it was not Epilepsy (their other dog has). After his last seizures he went back to the vet & the vet said these seizures are induced by Stress. Also stated that this most likely skips a generation so his pups should be o.k. but there is an 85% chance if those offspring produced pups that they would come up with seizures. Just wondering if anybody else has heard this as a cause for major repetitive seizures? 

No these dogs should not have been breed & possibly they will breed again since there is no lack of stupidity around the country. She is telling the potential buyers of the sire's condition & are on a spay/neuter contract but please it is easy enough to breed anything to anything so I don't know how this problem will be controlled.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

I wonder if the Vet informed your client what is causing the seizures. I know you said stress...but thats a pretty broad diagnosis. Heart, Liver (Hypoglycemia), inherited diseases, infectious disease, toxic inhalation or ingestion and many many more. These combined with the stress are what will cause the seizure.
How does the Vet know it will possibly skip a generation? Sounds like a sad situation.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Hmmm, seizures in a young dog with no other medical explaination why sound like epilepsy to me. A normal dog doesnt seize with stress... An epileptic dog can... The vet sounds a little off on his advice to me.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I guess her other Poo has seizures & I guess there is a blood test & there is a certain number they look for is elevated & that is how the vet knows if it is Epilepsy or something else. I guess his #'s are o.k. & not elevated so Epilepsy was rulled out. I just think "stress" is an odd diagnosis for multiple seizures in a young dog.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

The Vet is an idiot. Sorry, but if there was a blood test for Epilepsy, everyone would be doing it. If all appears ok with the dog, it is probably Epilepsy. If all else is ruled out, by blood work and condition of the dog, a diagnosis of Epilepsy is made. What is sad is that if one goes to enough vets, they will eventually find one that tell's them what they want to hear. Then they go around telling potential puppy buyers that a "Vet" said so, so this must be the truth. It is true that Epilepsy can skip a generation, or appear in the next generation, you just never know. Shame on her for breeding an untested dog with Seizures. Well, there is truth is the rule that you get what you pay for. Poor dogs!!!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I know I thought the vet an idiot as well. But that is not my vet & this has been her vet for a few years. It is too bad we can't stop people from breeding their dogs & I think the vet should have more strong in their opinion to NOT use this dog as a breeding dog. Her other Poodle has Epilepsy & is blind from Cataracts & only 4 & this was going to be the stud. I was able to talk them out of that horrific breeding. Then her family got her this BYB "toy" that is 14" tall & has seizures & less than a year old. Yikes! This is my 2nd client to put diapers on a bitch & not realize a male will tear those things off & breed with her. It is a head banging experience.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I hope you are doing some really heavy duty education about Poodle Health Registry! It may save someone down the road a lot of heartache.

re: the dumb vet. Could be... that maybe the vet didn't say any of this? That the people are making it up to justify their breeding practices?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

The one male is going in for his cataract surgery & getting neutered. I am hoping she neuters her other male as well since there is no need for another accidental breeding. I have been educating her & I actually ended up with the last of the litter which just happens to be the one I loved since day 12 when I first saw the litter. I have been entering all 3 of her poodles as well as my own in the PHR database. Very hard to track down since only 2 poodles on the Dam side had been registered, but I have gotten some info from those lines.

As far as the sire I cannot track down any info as of yet. They seem to so far be like my client only having a male & female & having a litter. The sire started his seizures after ingesting Rodent poision. Has had seizures since that time & is on meds to control them. So, in my non vet opinion it is from Poision that just didn't kill him.

The vet is an ass. I have had a few clients remove themselves from his practice due to him being very rude as well as the employee's as well. I have given her links from this forum to get informed about seizures & I hope she sends blood tests to the researchers as well.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*I'm confused*



3dogs said:


> I know I thought the vet an idiot as well. But that is not my vet & this has been her vet for a few years. It is too bad we can't stop people from breeding their dogs & I think the vet should have more strong in their opinion to NOT use this dog as a breeding dog. Her other Poodle has Epilepsy & is blind from Cataracts & only 4 & this was going to be the stud. I was able to talk them out of that horrific breeding. Then her family got her this BYB "toy" that is 14" tall & has seizures & less than a year old. Yikes! This is my 2nd client to put diapers on a bitch & not realize a male will tear those things off & breed with her. It is a head banging experience.


Ok... I'm confused here. When I started reading this thread, it sounded as if this was a planned breeding by the owner. But when I read this entry... it sounds as if it was an accidental breeding and according to the earlier posting the owner is informing the puppy people of the seizures in the sire and has a spay neuter contract.

Is she selling the pups at a profit? Giving them away? Did you have to sign a sp/euter contract for the puppy you have? 

The vet is not responsible for and should not be held accountable for peoples breeding choices. I would sincerely hope that the vet expressed his opinion and provided education to the people about why he felt that the dog shouldn't be bred. I would really hate to see the day come when people are not allowed to choose whether or not they breed their dogs. There are good breeders/bad breeders and as we all know.. a whole spectrum in between. Those good breeders put their hearts and souls into doing what is right and most helpful for the breed. When breeders can't breed anymore, that means not only the bad breeders.. but the good breeders as well. When breeders are regulated and legislated, it means that breeders can't use their own judgment to make wise breeding choices.. that those choices are dictated to them by people who often are clueless about breeding/genetics/health issues and breed well being. We often dont see the results of our breeding for a couple of decades. A lot of damage can happen that can't be undone. I'll give an example of that. Vic (sigh.. poor girl.. I DO use her as an example for everything), my AD girl.... is a wonderful girl who totally broke my heart with her Addison's (and epilepsy and....). A few years ago researchers were promoting a theory that the mode of inheritance of Addison's disease was by a simple recessive. This was supported by research. Yet I continued to see all sorts of poodles with lots of Addison's in their pedigrees being bred. It made me furious. I felt that the breeders doing that type of breeding should all be banned, blacklisted.. were horrible unethical people, producing pups who had a super high risk of being heartbreakers. I felt that use of PHR should be mandatory. There were many good responsible breeders out there who diligently removed, spayed and neutered high risk dogs from their breeding programs. Then... new research. New theories. Addison's is no longer believed to be inherited as a simple recessive. There were entire bloodlines LOST, we lost genetic diversity that our breed so desperately needs because people were doing what appeared to be the "right" thing AND in some cases, because there was social pressure on them to do so. Can you even imagine how much worse those losses and permanent damage to our gene pool would be... if breeding would have been regulated and what appeared to be high risk Addison breedings were not allowed? We would have lost many of our top show lines. I was wrong. I was really, really wrong. I'm not ashamed to admit it. It was a big learning experience for me. It changed my perspective quite a bit. But it also gave me a huge lesson in what can happen when someone tries to control the actions of someone else. I'm not supporting the breeding of ill dogs, I still don't support the breeding of high health risk dogs. Breeding decisions need to be made.. by breeders, for better or worse (just my opinion). Non-breeders have a tremendous amount of control over breeders with their actions. As a random example, if non-breeders only obtained dogs from breeders who did full health testing.. how long do you think it would be before all breeders were doing full health testing?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Rat poison induced seizures?*



3dogs said:


> As far as the sire I cannot track down any info as of yet. They seem to so far be like my client only having a male & female & having a litter. The sire started his seizures after ingesting Rodent poision. Has had seizures since that time & is on meds to control them. So, in my non vet opinion it is from Poision that just didn't kill him.
> 
> The vet is an ass. I have had a few clients remove themselves from his practice due to him being very rude as well as the employee's as well. I have given her links from this forum to get informed about seizures & I hope she sends blood tests to the researchers as well.



Ok.. now I'm even more confused. If the sire's seizures were caused by damage from rat poison, they are not genetic and would not be considered idiopathic epilepsy, nor should they be registered on PHR. To register poison or toxin induced seizures on PHR does more harm then good as it provides misinformation to breeders as well as potential pet owners. Here is a link to a bit of information regarding seizures on PHR that you may find helpful: 

Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Oops...bumped send...and wasn't done.*

This thread has again... been a super good lesson to me. I'm always shouting "PHR!, Register that health issue on PHR!" from the rooftops. But there truly are times that things shouldn't be registered... and I don't often mention that. I'm sorry. 
Seizures without a known cause should be registered as there is a good chance that they are genetic in origin. This allows breeders to plan low risk breedings for seizures, and it allows puppy people to make wise decisions when selecting a pup. BUT...

Just about any dog will seizure (or worse) with certain toxins, especially the neurotoxins found in some rat poisons. So if people with poodles who have never previously had a seizure, then ate rat poisoning and immediately started seizing.. and they registered this with PHR as idiopathic (meaning no known cause... which would be wrong because the rat poisoning caused it) epilepsy, then breeders would see that information and possibly avoid breeding healthy poodles of low health risk. Does that makes sense? It is critical that accurate information be entered to PHR, false information is more damaging than no information at all.

I hope that made sense. I'm really tired.. not very good at writing sometimes. If it didn't make sense.. will someone out there please untwist it for me.. so that people understand?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Sorry I don't explain things well in writing.
1. the female was bought as a family pet that they wanted to breed
2. the 1st male they had they wanted to breed that male to her. I highly advised them NOT to do that because this male DOES have Epilepsy according to the Vet & he has Juvenille cataracts. She is getting the eyes fixed & I think neutering this dog.
3. 2nd male dog is currently 15 months. Was bought by family members to breed to their female. He did ingest rodent poisin. He does have seizures & they started well before he was 9months old when he became the father of this litter. According to HER vet he said that the pups would NOT be affected but if they were to breed then there would be an 85% chance that the offspring would have seizures. It is just my opinion that it was the poision that started his seizure bouts, not the vets. All the new owners were on a s/n contract & since she didn't fill out the paperwork correctly I think the other 4 will not be registered period. My dog was free since I groom her dogs. 

4. I have not registered the sire on PHR as having seizures since it is an unkownn. I don't think it will affect anyone's breeding since he should be neutered soon and all the offspring are on s/n contracts.

5. I understand the double sided sword. I find it really hard to track heritage with correct size. There are many breeders that find a "toy" to be a "toy" even if oversized, a "mini" a "mini" even if oversized BUT the AKC states a "toy" is under 10" a "mini" is 10-15" etc..... So, why is there not an Oversized catagory on the pedigree so if one was to breed they know how tall the lineage is. My pup is already 10 1/2" tall & not yet 6 months. Her dam is just over 10" & sire is 14" but was sold as a "toy". The "toy" & the "mini" have slightly different health issues as well as some feel they look different. I just find it really confusing & I really feel for breeders trying to work on their breeding program. I registered my dog as a Mini soley based on size at the time I registered her.

Hope this didn't confuse the heck out of everyone.


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

3Dogs,
Would you please share the URL of the site where you registered the health problems?
Thank you!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Thanks for the clarification!*

Sorry.. I was reading, re-reading and things weren't just connecting with me.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify for me.

Regarding registering under the appropriate size.. I only have standards so that makes it easy. But I know from talking with breeders of other size poodles that sometimes it's tough to predict what height the poodles will be as adults.

I think.. and this is just speculation on my part, that when you are talking about health issues of toys and minis..those health issues tend to be correlated more with the individual lines than with the size of the dog. 

Standards can vary a lot in size, but if I have huge standards who are prone to Addison's disease and a separate line of smaller standards who are prone to JRD.. if I have a smaller standard produced in the huge line.. well that dog is going to carry the family risk for Addisons and not have any increased risk of JRD because of it's size. Similarly, if I had a huge poodle come out of my small lines, it would not have escaped the risk of JRD and it would not have any higher risk of Addison's disease because of it's size. These are made up examples as I do not have lines of huge standards with AD, nor do I have lines of small standards with JRD (the big disclaimer).

Can you share the pedigree of your pup--if you haven't already done that and I missed it? Being AKC registered, there may be people here who are able to find more pedigree information for you.

Thank you again!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

*So Sorry,......*

for some reason my mind was in a jumble & for some reason sleep clarifies things. I don't know why but for some reason things just come to me in my sleep & I for some reason remember. It is totally my mistake but I registered the dogs under Poodle Pedigree NOT PHR. So, sorry for the confusion & I have no idea why it just came to me when sleeping. 

This dog is not for breeding, I just enjoy looking at pedigree's. My Chinese Crested who is now 12 I used to love looking at all the CC in her pedigree. Most I could find in the 4 generation pedigree with pictures & info. So, I find that lots of fun & educational. She has 21 champions out of 30. 

So, in regards to my Poo who I know doesn't come from quality lines like my Crested I still like to track down & see pictures. Sire topside out of 3 generation not one is registered on Poodle Pedigree & no kennel names. On the Bottom in the 3rd generation I found 2 dogs that are registered & have found out that when the sire was with another female that they produced 3 UKC Champions. Pretty much with the dam when she was bred to a different sire the offspring produced UKC champions as well. I won't be showing conformation because my dog is very much my grooming competition dog & she is groomed in a Japanese style.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Registration/PoodlePedigree/PHR*



3dogs said:


> for some reason my mind was in a jumble & for some reason sleep clarifies things. I don't know why but for some reason things just come to me in my sleep & I for some reason remember. It is totally my mistake but I registered the dogs under Poodle Pedigree NOT PHR. So, sorry for the confusion & I have no idea why it just came to me when sleeping.


Ahhh... I had wondered about that when I read your entry. Had done some big lenghty postings and they never showed up here. A couple of points to clarify a bit, because if one person thinks it... there are probably a thousand more who do to!
BREED REGISTERIES Poodles can only be "registered" with a breed registery--such as the AKC, the UKC, the CKC (Canadian). There are some breed registries which were designed for puppy millers and irresponsible breeders so that they can claim to have registered dogs and sell them for more money. I, personally, would have some major concerns about any poodle with a CKC (Continental Kennel Club) registration.
IF a poodle is registered with the AKC or the CKC (and I would imagine the UKC as well.... I've never dealt with them), it would mean that the parents and ancestors are all registered. Which means that.. you can track back all of the registered dogs in a pedigree for many, many generations. There is usually a fee involved in requesting ancestor pedigrees. BUT.. if a poodle is registered, very often there are other people out there with poodles of the same linage and the pedigree information can be obtained at no cost. One of the biggest ways of sharing pedigree information is through Pedigree Databases.

PEDIGREE DATABASES- A pedigree database is nothing more than a place where lots of pedigrees are stored. Most breeders who care about what they are doing have a private pedigree database that they keep track of health issues which they may be aware of that aren't public knowledge. There are different ways of keeping private databases. Years ago.. it used to be in notebooks and recipe cards! Now there are lots of pedigree softwear programs for computers. These programs allow for complicated calculations such as Inbreeding Coefficients, and in the case of standard poodles, some will allow for % Wycliffe Calculations. Those are the private databases that individual people have on their computers but.... 

There are a couple of really big public poodle pedigree databases, PoodlePedigree.com and Poodle Health Registry. These databases are super great for the looking up of pedigrees and researching of health issues. The each function a little bit differently than the other and I consider them both to be of vital importance to "Poodledom". I use.. and support both equally.. although when it comes to health issues... well.. you'll hear me say "PHR!" Now here's a key point... poodles can NOT be registered with a pedigree database. It simply can't be done, that's not what databases do. They are simply a place to store pedigrees. In order to be registered, it must be done through a breed registry... out of known, registered parentage with all of the "i"s dotted and the "t"s crossed.. so to speak, by the person doing the registration. When it comes to putting pedigrees on either of the databases, it's simply a matter of posting that pedigree, but not registering. I know that sounds silly, a case of semantics, but it's actually a very critical one. 

PoodlePedigree vs Poodle Health Registry-- both are awesome, both are essential, but they do function a bit differently. You need an access/password to access the pedigrees on either one. Anyone with an access/password can publish pedigrees on PoodlePedigree. They can also share any known health information.. on anyone's poodles. In order to have a pedigree entered in the pedigree database on Poodle Health Registry, a request must be sent in. It is critical to be aware that the PHR pedigree database is simply that... a collection of pedigrees. There are many, many thousands of pedigrees available for lookup, research.. whatever in the PHR database of dogs who don't have health issues. But the point I was trying to make with this is.. anyone can enter on Poodle Pedigree while the staff at PHR do the Pedigree entries for PHR (but gladly take requests for specific pedigrees to be entered). 

REGISTERING HEALTH ISSUES: One last point.. the registering of health issues. The ONLY place that health issues can be "registered" is at Poodle Health Registry. The ONLY person who can register a health issue with PHR is the owner. The Breeder can't do it, the neighbor can't do it. Only the owner of the dog having a health issue is allowed to register a health issue and then.. there must be some sort of veterinary confirmation of the health issue (although anyone having any questions about the vet part should contact PHR staff with questions).

Many times people get confused between the roles/functions of each of these really important tools. They look different, they work differently from each other. I've decided to "volunteer" Vic again (she's such a great girl to volunteer so often!) so that everyone interested can take a look at the differences. 
Here is a link to her pedigree information on Poodle Pedigree:
Pedigree: Lady Victoria Of Marsan for anyone actively researching this pedigree, there is health information on Vic's offspring that is not on PHR. Why? Because I can't get the owners to submit the necessary information, even though I'm the breeder, I can't submit. Poodle Pedigree is the only place where that information is available at.

Here is a link to Vic's Pedigree in the PHR pedigree database:
PHR Pedigree Database

Everyone can look at it, because of the way I shared the link, but without an access code and password, you won't be able to click on any of the names for further information. If you have an access code and password... well you can look at all sorts of pedigrees and information.

OK, one last link... this is the link to the Health Issue Registration-Addison's page. If you scroll down, you will find Vic's name here (this has nothing to do with the pedigree database): 

Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!

I hope this helps anyone who has any questions regarding how "stuff" works.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*tracking ancestry*



3dogs said:


> So, in regards to my Poo who I know doesn't come from quality lines like my Crested I still like to track down & see pictures. Sire topside out of 3 generation not one is registered on Poodle Pedigree & no kennel names. On the Bottom in the 3rd generation I found 2 dogs that are registered & have found out that when the sire was with another female that they produced 3 UKC Champions. Pretty much with the dam when she was bred to a different sire the offspring produced UKC champions as well.


As far as tracking your poodle's pedigree to figure out the ancestry, it's a pain when folks don't share their pedigree's on PoodlePedigree BUT.. there's a good chance that the pedigrees are contained in the toy and mini pedigree database on Poodle Health Registry, so if you obtain an access code and password, you can access the information in that database. There aren't pictures with the PHR database, but once you know names you may just be able to google them to find out. 

If you register your poodle with AKC you will receive a 3 generation pedigree. If you want to pay $$ you can purchase the three generation pedigrees for the dogs in the third generation (and then you have six full generations!)



Good luck!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Your explanation should be a sticky! Thank you very much for this information. Very clear, very interesting.

--Q


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