# Help! Vomiting bone fragments!



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

This is a question for raw feeders:

I swear I have heard people say this happens - but I am asking anyway because I am worried about Henry! My spoos eat Nature's Variety pre-made raw in the AM and kibble in the PM. I gave them EACH a raw chicken back last night as a preparation for our possible switch to 100% raw. This was their first chicken back ever.

I woke up this morning to find vomited bone fragments in the hallway. (Pretty nasty looking...) Apparently Henry was restless all night . My mom let him outside once (but was too "half-asleep" to know if he vomited or anything) and then let him out of her room and into the hallway once because he was making regurgitation/gagging sounds.

I'm not sure if he vomited outside - I will check when the sun comes out!

Should I panic? Should I feed him this morning? (Usually it would be premade raw) Does this mean he can't handle raw? His stomach is tacked - could this be a problem with digesting bone? HELP!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i have no words as i feed m dogs kibble but i'm thinking of you and henry right now.

(((hugs)))


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i doubt hes having trouble digesting. but insted just had an upset tummy and bones came up.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

BTW - there is nothing more disgusting than waking up to a pile of regurgitated chicken bones outside your door. ick!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

thanks for the visual. i was eating an omelet w/ veggies and salsa. :afraid:
lolol

but then again, i opened this thread ... duh.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Very normal. And very common. Don't worry - mine did it the first few months. from time to time. But it happened on occasion and it was usually an indicator that I needed to increase their food intake, or they played too much after eating - Olie is notorious for this. Also upset bellys can cause it too. Yep its gross and scary when you first see it, I know. Typically they will eat it again - I KNOW NASTY, but thats what dogs do


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Vienna will do this with hooves if she gets too eager and gets chunks off, Vegas has never had a proble, however.


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## curlysmama (Oct 31, 2010)

No idea, but I am thinking of Henry!


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

The bones are the last thing to break down in the stomach, if they do. If his tummy is empty with just bones thats what comes out. Not necessarily what caused it. If my guys tummy is too empty over night he will vomit. ( he is so picky some nights and won't eat) I feed the raw in the morning with kibble at night. I was told to keep them separate as raw will go through faster than chow. If raw is fed after chow it stays in the digestive tract longer and can cause gas. (so I was told). Maybe kibble at night will keep him full longer. But don't worry about the bone vomit. It was all that was in there to come up. Eeeew!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Riley has thrown up bone fragments and bile way too many times to count!!!! He was a couple times a month night bile vomiter for years (before he was addisons diagnosed, not one since). No biggy!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Thanks everyone! Well, I figured Henry was fine when he was full of energy and had normal stools. Probably just a little stomach upset! Regardless, our carpet is stained now lol and my mom doesn't want me feeding him chicken backs at night becuase he kept her up all night. So...he hasn't had any more chicken backs. 

Millie did just fine! Must be because she is still so young that she tolerated it better. I went ahead and gave her another back the following night. She eats raw like a champ!


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

so funny story my old vet was very anti raw (but ironiclly loved how my ibs dog was once we switched)

had a foster dog go in to be snippe and she gave me quite the lecture bout the bone fragments he threw up. she ws convinced i was feeding him raw too (actually i wasn't) it had just been from a store bought chew bone!


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## LuvPoo (May 8, 2010)

No offense. But has the world gone completely mad?? What happened to the day when we all tried very hard to make sure our beloved dogs weren't allowed near chicken or other small bones?? Would you feed yourself or your children this? (Please don't give the "wild animal" speech. Dogs have been domesticated for 1000's of years. They are not wolves.) I'm not advocating feeding them crappy food from China made of sawdust and toxins. How about a middle ground of healthy, cooked food with no bones?)
My friend's childhood dog died an early death many moons ago (1960s) due to bone fragments accumulated in his gut. At that time they didn't know...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

LuvPoo said:


> No offense. But has the world gone completely mad?? What happened to the day when we all tried very hard to make sure our beloved dogs weren't allowed near chicken or other small bones?? Would you feed yourself or your children this? (Please don't give the "wild animal" speech. Dogs have been domesticated for 1000's of years. They are not wolves.) I'm not advocating feeding them crappy food from China made of sawdust and toxins. How about a middle ground of healthy, cooked food with no bones?)
> My friend's childhood dog died an early death many moons ago (1960s) due to bone fragments accumulated in his gut. At that time they didn't know...


While cooked bones are quite dangerous, raw bones are very soft and are easily digested by dogs. And no, I would not feed my *CHILDREN* raw bones as they are not *DOGS*. Humans and dogs do not have the same digestive systems or digestive capabilities. Unfortunately, people tend to humanize dogs. A ground, cooked diet is not a species appropriate diet. Yes, a dog will survive on it, but it is not _ideal._Yes, dogs have been domesticated, but they are a subspecies of the grey wolf. Your misconception that the domestication of dogs has somehow made dogs unfit to survive on their "natural" diet is a common one. The physiological and nutritional needs of dogs are no different from that of wolves. If you look at the digestive system and teeth of a dog, it is hardly different from that of a wolf.

Re: your claim that dogs are not wolves: dogs and wolves are able to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. This is the largest indicator of DNA compatibility.

*"Additionally, dogs and wolves share 99.8% of their mitochondrial DNA (Wayne, R.K. Molecular Evolution of the Dog Family). This next quote is from Robert K. Wayne, Ph.D., and his discussion on canine genetics (taken from www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.html)."
*

*"The domestic dog is an extremely close relative of the gray wolf, differing from it by at most 0.2% of mDNA sequence..."*

Also,

*"Lastly, dogs have recently been reclassified as Canis lupus familiaris by the Smithsonian Institute (Wayne, R.K. "What is a Wolfdog?" www.fiu.edu/~milesk/Genetics.htm), placing it in the same species as the gray wolf, Canis lupus. The dog is, by all scientific standards and by evolutionary history, a domesticated wolf (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 472.). Those who insist dogs did not descend from wolves must disprove the litany of scientific evidence that concludes wolves are the ancestors of dogs. And, as we have already established, the wolf is a carnivore. Since a dog's internal physiology does not differ from a wolf, dogs have the same physiological and nutritional needs as those carnivorous predators, which, remember, "need to ingest all the major parts of their herbivorous prey, except the plants in the digestive system" to "grow and maintain their own bodies" (Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation.). The next myth will discuss a dog's "changed needs" to cooked food more fully."*

If you would like to read up on the biological similarities between dogs and wolves as well as species appropriate diets I recommend these resources: 
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/changed.html
http://preymodelraw.com/why-pmr/
http://www.rawlearning.com/

I must ask...has the world gone mad feeding a _species inappropriate diet_ to our *carnivores*?


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## Lilith (Sep 29, 2010)

Do, however, be aware of the risk of Salmonella and E.coli when you feed raw - risk to both your dog and the household members.

Dogs do get Salmonella, and in fact it was Salmonella bacteria contamination that had some processed dog foods recalled on several occassions (oddly something that makes people freak out and decide all processed foods are evil - while still feeding raw chicken,... things that make you go 'hmmm'...).

Nearly 100% of chickens and chicken eggs carry Salmonella bacteria in the U.S. It's been this way since the mid-1980s (before then they were relatively free, which is why you may hear very true stories of how raw eggs were the 'thing' back when and nobody got sick, etc etc). Chicken meat, eggs, and bones are now almost universally contaminated.

Most of the time, however, both dogs and humans who are exposed to Salmonella get no symptoms and are in no way sick or aversely affected (I take the risk every December and brave the raw cookie dough). Every now and then, however, the dosage, type of bacteria, or whatever is such that the dog/person gets a whammy of an illness. Not fun (I've never had it, but I'm an infectious disease researcher and my last job was interviewing otherwise healthy people of all ages who had nasty Salmonella infections). Dogs can and do on occassion get sick from Salmonella, and dogs fed raw tend to shed bacteria and get it on their paws, nose, fur, etc to distribute throughout the house. E.coli (beef risk) is also a concern for dogs and people (and really really really for children, for whom it can cause kidney failure).

Anyway, just something to be aware of when you feed raw. Wouldn't cause the acute vomiting of undigested bones you mentioned - I'm just mentioning as an aside that if you're switching to raw you should read not only the diets and recipes but also the signs and symptoms of bacterial infections (especially Salmonella and E.coli) so that you are prepared as raw diets do increase the risk of these things.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

To clarify, this thread about vomiting bone fragments is from several weeks back. Henry did this one, singular time. I have been feeding raw since with no additional incidents. Also, my dogs had previously been eating pre-made raw for several months. It was most likely stomach upset because I forgot to trim the skin/ fat and organs (an important step when introducing RMBs). 

Yes, salmonella is present in most chicken. However, the threat for _healthy_ dogs is minimal. Dogs have shorter digestive systems with more than 50% hydrochloric acid. Additionally, kibble is contaminated with salmonella as much as raw due to the processing. Salmanella and E. coli is all around us. I remember doing an experiment in college where we tested various areas of campus for E.coli contamination. It was _literally_ everywhere!! :scared:

Anyway, Lilith, you are exactly right. While the risk of raw fed dogs getting sick from Salmonella or E.coli is very minimal, it is possible. Especially with dogs with compromised immune systems. It is possible with kibble too. So no matter what you feed your dog, if they are very sick, take them to the vet 

Re: raw fed dogs "shedding" pathogens, this has not been proven to be any greater in raw fed dogs than kibble fed dogs. Salmonella is present in the bags of kibble most people feed their dogs, and in the feces of these dogs just as much as raw fed dogs. 

And its in the raw cookie dough that I *too* will be eating this Christmas season 

ETA: believe it or not, I actually am a bit of a germophobe. I take precautions to avoid the possible spread of bacteria by tying Millie's long ears up while she eats, and wiping her face with a wet cloth. I also feed the dogs outside, and wipe their paws when they come in. Honestly, though, I am not sure how necessary this is.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Re: raw fed dogs "shedding" pathogens, this has not been proven to be any greater in raw fed dogs than kibble fed dogs. Salmonella is present in the bags of kibble most people feed their dogs, and in the feces of these dogs just as much as raw fed dogs.
> 
> And its in the raw cookie dough that I *too* will be eating this Christmas season


Great point CM - glad you edited this in.

And my favorite cookie dough is peanut butter!!


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Great responses CM!! 

P.S.- I Love raw cookie dough!! I used to make cookies just for the dough! I greatly dislike PB cookies though. :aetsch:


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