# I'm biting the raw food diet bullet once again!



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Nifty's thread and the articles in the link she provided inspired me once again to try raw feeding. (thanks Nifty) I have read quite a bit over the past 10 years or so and even tried it once when I lived in Idaho. My Chihuahua, Chulita gagged quite badly on a chicken wing and it freaked me out and I went back to premium commercial food. Of course, she had just been introduced to bones and hadn't gotten use to chewing well enough. And I also did get some Nature's Variety, pre-made raw for a time. But it was pricey and I still didn't feel like they were getting the benefits that bones supply. 

So here we are again...I brush their teeth every night but still, I worry about their dental health, which translates to all kinds of health problems if not maintained properly. I don't give them raw hide or other very hard things to chew because I'm worried about blockages and things.

Sooooooooo, as I type, I'm hearing the two Poodles chewing, cracking, splitting their chicken thighs. Jose` has finished his. I forgot to do what I read about and that is to fast them one day before starting and to start with a small amount. I gave them each waaaay too big of a thigh. (I later did the math) I was so nervous. But I woke up to no diarrhea so far or problems. Maybe it's too early to tell. Anyhow, now they're on their 2nd meal. (smaller this time) :eating:

After they get use to this...in about a week probably, I'll be feeding the next protein. So I must talk to a local butcher I guess.

I decided to go with a prey model, meaty bone diet. The chewing/gnawing on bones is important to me. We'll see how it goes this time around. I'm always open to advice with this. I'm really quite a newbie. I'm going to join a raw feeding forum maybe. Does anyone else belong to one of those? Do you think it's a good idea? 

Wish us luck!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Good luck Poodlebeguiled! I hope you can find a friendly butcher who can help you get the variety that you need.

Dulcie loves chicken thighs too. Do you remove the skin? I didn't at first, and then I noticed her poop was different (TMI sorry) and now I remove most of the skin and fat, but I leave a little of the fat on (i.e. I don't get out a knife and spend ages trimming - I basically just slip my fingers under the skin and work it off in a flash; its really easy).

I was thinking if you can get chicken necks from your butcher those might be even safer (so less worry for you! ) and will also provide the benefit for their teeth.

I think you are really smart to introduce one raw protein at a time, even though I am sure you've probably provided different sources in their high grade kibble. I figure better to be prudent and think of the raw as a new dimension. I also just kind of plunged in there with Dulcie's first raw chicken wings back when she was a younger puppy. She was kibble fed and I just added it as a mid day meal (per my breeder's suggestion) and no harm done! 

So exciting! I can't wait to hear how things go!

P.S. Again with the poop comments (sorry if TMI! -- Dulcie's BMs are now small and so easy to pick up. It is smaller than most much smaller dogs' -- I can only guess how tiny your boys' will be! You may have to get out a magnifier glass at scoop time!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

With the winter darkness, and the fallen leaves, if I forget to feed my two a bit of sweetcorn I struggle to find their poops at all! There I am, responsible dog owner, poo bag in hand, bent double staring at the ground - a magnifying glass would probably be a big help! You may want to have a few chicken livers to hand, PB, in case the bone content bungs the dogs up a bit. Some other offal would be good, too. You know that you are really there with the big boys and girls when you feed raw tripe, or whole prey complete with feathers and fur! I haven't quite managed the last bit, yet, but mine are very happy when Tilly-cat obliges!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Hey, don't worry about me with poop comments. TMI is never enough. I had little children and young mothers and in my case, fathers too are famous for in depth conversations about poo. lol. Yes, even with their premium foods, their poop is firm, not too often and yes, very hard to see in the grass. I must keep my grass mowing maintained at all times or I might miss some. And then Jose` eats it! :ahhhhh:

Thanks for your encouragement and advice with the smaller chicken pieces. I might just go get some of those smaller pieces. But maybe the little bit larger, not so poky might be safer. (?) Of course, they become poky once they start chewing them up.

When I went to the Safeway yesterday, I told the meat dept. lady that I was looking for chicken thighs (per advice on one article) for my dogs and asked if she had something with bones but not skin and she said she could take the skin and fat off for me. She then showed me where they had big, family packs for 50% off because the "sell by" date was that day. She said there are always those packages. There's nothing wrong....not spoiled but must be used or frozen right away. So, when I got the re-packaged, trimmed up thighs, I noticed that they still had more skin and fat than I wanted so I spent a long time meticulously trimming them more. And re-packing them, 3 to a freezer bag and into my freezer. 

When I was trimming, I handed each dog a little piece of raw chicken. Matisse just dropped his on the floor. lol. He wasn't sure about it. But then he saw the others devouring it and decided he'd give it another try to see if he'd acquire a taste for the gourmet. He did. And they have really been enjoying their food. Now I've got my food weigh scale out and am weighing it to suit each dogs weight and activity level, age etc...of course, an approximation. I won't always have to do that, but just till I get use to how much is a good amount.

There is a butcher up north I've heard of that may be just the ticket. I'll call and see what all he has. There is a lot of farm land around and I bet I'll find something. Or I've heard that looking on Craigslist I might find a hunter who has surplus venison or some such meat. But it is advised to go with just one meat until the dogs are use to it. Then another and so on. 

A question for you experts: Jose` has a lot of teeth missing....I think about 4 or 5. Is this dangerous for him to try to chew up bones? He does still have some molars and plenty of other teeth. He crunched on the bone but I think he swallowed a big chunk of it last night as he's a pig when he eats. So I'm a bit worried. It was about 4:30 pm. Has it been long enough to know? He pooped right after but it probably didn't have the bone worked down yet. Oh my...I'm a nervous Nelly. :afraid:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> With the winter darkness, and the fallen leaves, if I forget to feed my two a bit of sweetcorn I struggle to find their poops at all! There I am, responsible dog owner, poo bag in hand, bent double staring at the ground - a magnifying glass would probably be a big help! You may want to have a few chicken livers to hand, PB, in case the bone content bungs the dogs up a bit. Some other offal would be good, too. You know that you are really there with the big boys and girls when you feed raw tripe, or whole prey complete with feathers and fur! I haven't quite managed the last bit, yet, but mine are very happy when Tilly-cat obliges!


Thanks Fjm. I missed your post while typing the other. 

Haha...that is so familiar...the bending over, poop bag in hand and unable to find the poop. LOL!

Thanks so much for the advice. So bunged up means constipated? Do you think it's okay to feed the liver now then? They do get freeze dried liver treats but only a little. How much liver should I give them? And I'll look for green tripe. I did feed that from a can made by Merrick. If I can't get it from a butcher, I'll buy that canned stuff I guess. But I'm going to start my search for things in preparation for when I try a new meat. Feathers and fur? Well, hmm. my Lab Bonnie use to hunt wild rabbits and she definitely was on a prey model diet, along with her kibble. lol. That really is something I'll leave to the dogs. haha. What is offal? 

Gee, I sure do appreciate your experience and advice!


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Yes, good luck with the raw feeding!

I have been inspired by nifty's posts as well and will officially switch Mira to a raw diet once we move in a couple of months. Right now, we just do not have the freezer space. I researched a lot and found something better than MPC, a yahoo group located in Central FL that sells all types of meet: beef, chicken, rabbit, lamb, etc with great prices!! Chicken necks are just 50c a pound. I really hope this group is current, I messaged them and haven't gotten anything back yet for a while...

I gave Mira two chicken legs yesterday morning (intended for us) and she munched on it eagerly. I'm giving her some again tonight 

fjm, I totally understand what you mean when you are looking for poops in the dark!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Offal is basically innards other than the heart - not sure what erm you use in the States! The generally advised proportions are 80% flesh, 10% bone, 10% offal, of which around half should be liver. That can be to much for some dogs though - there is a bit of trial and error involved. Tripe counts as offal, but is a near perfectly balanced food in its own right - shame it smells so dreadful... Mine LOVE it, but don't get it as often as they would like because I hate the smell so much!


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

fjm said:


> Offal is basically innards other than the heart - not sure what erm you use in the States! The generally advised proportions are 80% flesh, 10% bone, 10% offal, of which around half should be liver. That can be to much for some dogs though - there is a bit of trial and error involved. Tripe counts as offal, but is a near perfectly balanced food in its own right - shame it smells so dreadful... Mine LOVE it, but don't get it as often as they would like because I hate the smell so much!


I think it is organ in the states. 80% flesh, 10%bone, 10& organ. I have spent hours researching this diet. Also feed 2-3% of dogs total weight. Percentages depend on the dog's age and activity level. Mira gets Trippet green tripe mixed with her kibble, I can not wait to go full raw..


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

fjm, when you say that the green tripe is a balanced food in its own right, does that mean that it is OK to feed say 50% meat, bone and offal plus 50% tripe for one of the daily meals? I was just bagging up the thawed MPC beef and tripe and I decided to mix them (about 60/40) because one of the grinds that MPC sells is actually a 50/50 tripe and meat grind, so I am hoping it's OK but I thought I would ask!

Also, here is my freezer right now. It isn't as tidy as I usually like (I like everything going the same way, but with the still frozen crocks still in there below these piles of baggies, I had to just tuck 'em in where I could ). There are at least 25 meals here individually bagged up and underneath there are still 6 crocks 2 pounds each of whole animal grinds. Also 2 up in the fridge because I ran out of room below. They arrived from MPC frozen so solidly that the ones in the fridge are STILL not fully thawed - and the website says that it is OK to thaw and then refreeze. So that is what I did with the tripe and the beef, lamb and trout grinds which have so far been the first to thaw.

P.S. I use the freezer bags over and over again (I try to use the same protein in marked bags). They wash well - I just fill with hot soapy water and close the zipper and let them soak while I do other stuff, then swish around, rinse with hot water and I put them upside down on the counter to air dry. I have about 30 of these bags and I just keep reusing them, so raw feeding can be environmentally friendly too! (Except that the tubs that MPC sent cannot be sent back for reuse unfortunately - so I am looking into a way to recycle them. I can't keep or use them myself because they take up too much space).


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Mithy, every time I look at that photo of pretty Mira I smile! It is hard to believe she could ever look healthier or prettier and I can't wait to hear how she does on the raw diet!

Thanks for the reminder about ratio and portions. I divide the 2 lb crocks of grinds into equal (well, eyeballed equal lol) portions of 8 oz each and Dulcie gets two of these portions per day. She weighs 40-ish pounds and I calculated that she would do best on between .8 and 1.2 pounds of raw food per day. Because she had lost so much weight during her recent HGE illness (she went down from 44 to 38 lbs), I have been feeding her a full pound each day plus a neck or chicken foot every other day or so. She isn't gaining fast and still seems hungry sometimes, so I have been thinking of increasing this slightly for a few weeks.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

At least 70% of my dogs' raw diet was meat, with other protein sources like sardines, egg, and yogurt, to give them some variety, for a total of 80%. I had the diet evaluated, was told it needed a few tweaks, so I added Nordic Naturals fish oil to boost the omega 3, a kelp powder (Berte's Naturals Green Blend) to increase iodine, and oat bran for manganese. I fed a tablespoon or two of raw veggies and fruit with every meal to help with poop, which sometimes was a bit hard until the dogs got used to the bone content.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Okay...so I must go to the Safeway again today and get a little liver and ask about the tripe. And then I'm looking into the butcher who is in a town quite a ways north.

Mithy, that's great! Now tell me, what is MPC? Is that an online group that discusses raw feeding? 

One thing, I do not believe that commercial food, if it's a quality one is a death sentence the way a lot of raw feeder zealots portray it. I think some of those people are ridiculous. But I do believe that a diet that is more nearly fresh and natural is better. The less cooking, the less processing, the better. However, some commercial foods are cooked at a very low temperature and so forth. Anyhow, I've always felt a raw diet would be better for them and their TEETH and gums. That's a really big deal to me. But I was a little "chicken" to really get into it and try. Now I live very much closer to a veterinarian's office so if anything goes wrong, I don't have to drive 45-60 minutes like I did in Idaho. lol. 60 minutes if it would be at night or on a week end (emergency) and we all know emergencies _always _without exception happen when the regular vet is closed. 

I really appreciate you who are and have been feeding raw. Even though I've read a lot in the past, I've forgotten a ton and first hand experiences are invaluable. Thanks so much! I love to hear your stories and what you do, how your dogs are doing etc.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

JudyD said:


> At least 70% of my dogs' raw diet was meat, with other protein sources like sardines, egg, and yogurt, to give them some variety, for a total of 80%. I had the diet evaluated, was told it needed a few tweaks, so I added Nordic Naturals fish oil to boost the omega 3, a kelp powder (Berte's Naturals Green Blend) to increase iodine, and oat bran for manganese. I fed a tablespoon or two of raw veggies and fruit with every meal to help with poop, which sometimes was a bit hard until the dogs got used to the bone content.


Oh Judy! This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. Now, how am I going to know if they're getting all they should? I had heard that raw meaty bones had everything they need. Is this not quite true? Maybe I should consult with the nutrition expert I used with my Doberman when he had liver disease. What do you think? Or do you know how to figure it out for dogs my dogs' size? 4+ lbs, 6 lbs and about 10 lbs what all I should give them?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled, I totally agree with you on the fact that for some people raw feeding has taken on perhaps too much significance. I also believe that a high quality kibble diet is an excellent way to feed a dog. I would have stuck with kibble (for simplicity if nothing else!) except that I was so concerned about DUlcie's teeth and was having issues keeping them clean. I started doing raw meaty bones for that reason - and from time to time I would add ground meat to the meal to balance out the bone a bit and eventually I was asking myself, why not just go to raw feeding? By getting into it gradually, I was able to see that it isn't as scary as I thought it would be. And lots of great info here on PF as well as on the internet, pretty soon, it made more sense.

Now, I find it is actually very easy indeed. 

For the extra insurance, something that Charismatic Millie recommended was to add a little Honest Kitchen base mix to the raw. I have the Kindly and the Preference (kindly rehydrates more quickly) and I mix about a tablespoon of it with hot water about 10 minutes before adding her meat - mix it all up and voila! Dinnertime!  

And since your boys like lots of fruits and veggies, I think it would be simple to just continue to give them those on occasion - and also yogurt if they ike that! Dulcie gets yogurt a couple of times a week as a topper.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh Judy! This is very interesting. Thank you for sharing. Now, how am I going to know if they're getting all they should. I had heard that raw meaty bones had everything they need. Is this not quite true? Maybe I should consult with the nutrition expert I used with my Doberman when he had liver disease. What do you think? Or do you know how to figure it out for dogs my dogs' size? 4+ lbs, 6 lbs and about 10 lbs what all I should give them?


I'm definitely not in the laid-back, throw a chicken carcass in the back yard and let the dogs go at it camp. I don't think just muscle meat and bone is adequate. Whole prey model might be okay, if the dogs eat organs, muscle meat, skin, bones, fur, feathers, etc., but I'm not comfortable with it. My OCD tendencies require more control and information. That's why I had the diet evaluated.

As Mithy says, adult dogs need 2-3 % of their body weight daily. If my math is right, at ten pounds, that would be 3.2 to 4.8 ounces/day, at four pounds, that would be 1.3 to 2 ounces/day. I was feeding an 85 pound Lab, who got around 24-25 ounces a day, and a 50 pound poodle, who got around 16 ounces a day, so this sounds like practically nothing to me, but I checked the math several times. I think it's right. Breaking such small amounts down into the 80-10-10 ratio would be a bit difficult, but it doesn't have to balance exactly every single day, just over a period of time. For such small dogs, though, I'd want a professional evaluation.

The man who looked at my diet plan wrote Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet(his name is... Steve Brown, I think). He used to offer a diet evaluation, but he's no longer doing that. A friend who was interested in feeding a raw diet told me recently that her vet had recommended having a diet check by a nutritionist at Ohio State, but it cost more than she could afford at the time, so she didn't do it. I don't feel comfortable posting that information here, since I haven't dealt with the nutritionist myself, but if for some reason, your dobe's nutritionist isn't available, I'll pm you if you want it.

I'm afraid I'd making this sound scary and difficult, but it really isn't. My dogs loved it and thrived on it. I stopped when we got Blue, because I didn't trust myself to get the balance right for a young pup and just never got back to it, but I've been thinking about starting again, now that Blue is an adult. Maybe this thread will be the final push.


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Nifty, thank you for the nice compliments on Mira!
Dulcie has a great mom to be feeding her a raw diet and I know she will get back to her ideal weight soon. I read somewhere that you should not get into calculations too much or you'll end up not sticking to raw. Eyeballing is best. If you feel your dog is too thin, feed more. If the dog weighs too much, feed less. Very simple to follow  Sophie Ann posted somewhere about how to properly feel your dogs ribs to determine if they are at the right weight.

Thanks for the picture. I actually have two fridges in my town home since there are chefs in my family. I don't think they'll want to mix our frozen meats with the dog's, but MAYBE I can convince them once they realize how much money they'll be saving and how much healthier it is.. We'll see once this bag of dry food is finished.

I will add that high quality kibble, though it doesn't seem like it, is just as good as raw. There has been numerous studies comparing kibble fed dogs and raw fed dogs that virtually have the same health. The raw fed dogs just had a higher protein content.. I guess you should do whatever works for you, but raw IS great for the teeth and gums and works their jaw muscles a bit more.

MPC is mypetcarnivore.com -- A raw pet food company that delivers to certain areas.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Your dogs will LOVE you for switching them to a raw diet! 

There is nothing wrong with a good quality kibble diet, not everybody agrees with feeding raw and not everybody has time, as kibble is definitely more convenient.

There is no exact science to feeding raw. If your dogs are small and it sounds like they are, then I would lean more towards chicken necks rather than thigh bones. The bones are just softer and smaller. I am lucky enough to get chicken carcasses that have had most of the meat taken off and the breast portion is perfect for my Maltese cross, as they are fairly soft bones too. My large dogs get the whole carcasses and love them.

I feed meaty bones about 3 -4 days a week and a ground mix the rest....which has about 10 percent bone and 10 percent organs. To this mix I add a small amount of processed fruits or veggies. I also feed green tripe about 3 days a week too. About 2 days a week I also add raw egg to their meals.
If you phone around to local butchers you may find that a lot of them sell a ground pet grade meat mix for a reasonable price. Here on Vancouver island raw feeding is getting fairly popular so there are a lot of different sources for raw. I just shop around.

Good luck, and remember the meals don't have to be balanced day to day. Variety is the key over a week or two.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

On tripe - I have read widely divergent views, ranging from those that say it is very low in calcium and other nutrients, to those that say it as near a complete diet as you can find for a dog. I think around 20 - 25% of the diet should be fine, whichever view you take!

I worked out that my dogs needed around half a can of sardines or the equivalent of raw salmon every 4 - 7 days to meet their fish oil requirements, so aim for an approximation of that.

There are some nutrients that are easier to provide through cooked or pureed vegetables, so I cook up a few veg with ground meat or gravy and mix them into the frozen portions - a few carrots or other orange stuff, some legumes, a few green leafy vegetables or broccoli, pumpkin if I have some, all to make up 10 - 20% of a meal.

I started with spreadsheets of nutrients, calories, ingredients and recipes - these days I follow a few simple rules founded upon a variant of the famous advice for a human diet: feed real food, mostly protein, not too much!


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## Deblakeside (Oct 2, 2015)

I'm so glad I found this thread! I started transitioning Billy to a raw diet 4 weeks ago. He has been absolutely loving it, but I'm a little nervous about providing a well balanced diet. I'm lucky because Billy weighs just under 5 lbs- so he only needs 1.5 to 2.4 oz per day. Also, I have a small chest freezer. I have been prepping meats or veggies and then freezing them in ice cube trays. Two cubes of meat and half a cube of veggies is all he needs for a day. My veggie mix is pumpkin, sweet potato, green beans, brocolli, and spinach (or kale that is still growing in the garden!) I cooked the sweet potato, steamed the rest, threw it in the food processor, and then scooped it into ice cube trays. He's also getting fresh veggies and fruit-whatever I have on hand for the humans, but this has worked out great for a back up. He's had chicken, pork, turkey, and chicken mixed with approx 10% chicken livers.
I bought frozen chicken wings- and he's had them twice now, and absolutely loves them! And they are just the right size for him. Next I need to add offal and fish- its a bit overwhelming. While transitioning, I've been feeding a small amount of kibble in the afternoon. I've read conflicting info about whether its ok to feed kibble and raw at the same time, or should I drop the kibble. I think I'm only feeding kibble still because a) its easy and b)I feel it might complete any nutrition absent from the morning's raw meal.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, I drove all over the place all afternoon hunting down chicken necks. No luck...unless you get the whole chicken. No tripe either except for the 3rd pet store I stopped at which had some canned. It's mixed with other things to make it a complete meal. I did get liver so I cut up a few small pieces for them. I know it said to start with just chicken but I'm worried they'll get plugged up. Oy....

I got some wings, thinking maybe they're a little smaller than the thighs. We'll see how that goes. Maybe this is going to be difficult for me to make sure they get all the nutrients they need. I'm getting sort of nervous. I sure do appreciate your advice. Now if I could get this down to an organized thing where I'm not leaving anything important out, I'd be set. Fjm...you sound so particularly organized with a spread sheet and all. I don't even know how to do a spread sheet. 

Thanks so much guys. I'm going to have to do a lot more studying I see. Oy!

Ooooo Deblakeside, I missed your post until just now. Thanks! I'm coming back to this later or tomorrow...busy now. But I am interested in everyone's methods and ideas! Terrific!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

deblakeside and poodlebeguiled -- if you are uneasy about balance at first, what about serving raw in the morning and kibble in the evening? To be honest, that is what I was doing with Dulcie for months and months until we did the complete transition about 2 months ago. I think as long as you are not mixing raw and processed at the very same meal (or within a short time of each other), that it is fine to do a half and half diet. The sense of covering the bases sure made me feel better in those early months of making the slow transition!

I read that as long as there are 6 or so hours between the raw and the processed meals, that the dog will most likely do just fine.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

For bone I exclusively feed Swizzle chicken necks. I find them in grocery stores and good quality pet stores that carry raw. Chicken necks are the right size for a toy. Try going to a grocery store in a more ethnic location is they are not in your store or request them. Raw will definitely improve your dog's oral health. We call it offal in the U.S. Too; it is just not in general use as it does not get eaten much here.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Deblakeside....it sounds like you are doing everything right, nice variety.
You wouldn't even necessarily have to add more protein sources, you 've got quite a few going there.

PB....don't be nervous, as I said it's not an exact science. Chicken wings are just fine for small dogs like you have. I would find a ground meat source as well such as beef or Turkey.....whatever is available where you live for a decent price. Even buying human grade ( on sale) shouldn't be too costly as your dogs are small. Then add a small amount of processed veggies like romaine lettuce/green beans/sweet potatoes/peas.... Throw in an egg a couple of times a week and also canned sardines once or twice a week. You're set!

I envy you guys feeding such small dogs, mine are 85 lbs, 40 lbs and 16 lbs!

And Nifty is right....it's fine to feed both kibble and raw but do it at separate meals.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Interesting thread. I used to feed raw (started years ago) then moved to kibble with my last poodle, transitioned Sunny to raw from his kibble when I got him, and have more or less moved back to his grain free kibble (NOW Fresh small breed senior) and use the raw as variety -- He does really well on the Petcurean kibble, but still have teeth issues but smaller dogs tend to be more prone to teeth/gum issues so probably have to bite the bullet and get Sunny's teeth professionally cleaned once in the spring -- he is almost 8. I even use an electric toothbrush but really need to clean them. But, for the raw vs. kibble, I am more or less 50/50.


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## Deblakeside (Oct 2, 2015)

Nifty, thanks for the info. It makes sense that you could still feed kibble as long as its not at the same time as the raw. I will continue doing that for now.

Critterluvr, the meat sources are coming mainly from what me and the dh eat, but I need to add more offal. So far only chicken livers, and I understandd that they should not make up more than 50% of the 10% organ meats. Any suggestions? I have no experience with offal at all. I'm willing to try. I will admit that processing the chicken livers into 10% size bits was fairly disgusting! :eating:


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Any secretory organ is good--kidney, pancreas, liver, spleen, testicles--but you won't find any of those except liver in your local Kroger. Someone mentioned My Pet Carnivore, which is a great place to order all sorts of strange and wonderful food. In addition to things like goat testicles and lamb pancreas, they occasionally had ground muskrat, llama, and duck, which included bones and organs, but not skin, fur, or feathers. It's expensive if you're feeding big dogs, but for small dogs, you could get a wide variety in one order, parcel it out in small amounts, freeze it, and it would last a long time.

I got most of my meat for free from a local slaughterhouse (otherwise I couldn't have afforded to feed raw, because the dogs ate around 75 pounds/month)--mostly beef heart (which is muscle meat, not organ), liver and kidney--but there was a lot of work involved, and you've got to be comfortable handling that kind of thing. I'd pick up fifty pounds at a time and spend the afternoon cutting and packaging it in one or two day portions. Hmmm, now that I think about it, maybe that's why I haven't gone back to raw. :biggrin1:


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Critterluvr, the meat sources are coming mainly from what me and the dh eat, but I need to add more offal. So far only chicken livers, and I understandd that they should not make up more than 50% of the 10% organ meats. Any suggestions? I have no experience with offal at all. I'm willing to try. I will admit that processing the chicken livers into 10% size bits was fairly disgusting! :eating:[/QUOTE]

Check your local supermarket, ours carry both beef and chicken hearts, kidneys, liver.... Also ethnic supermarkets carry a lot of different animal parts that you wouldn't find in regular supermarkets. 
Your dog is quite small, I wouldn't feed too much offal....it's quite rich.

The ground meat blends that I purchase already have the organs and bone added in at 10 percent each, so that's nice.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

For Swizzle chicken wings do not work well. There is too much bone and I don't want to have to cut them up. Fossil poop is no fun. Chicken necks are ideal. I need to make sure he gets Organ meat in addition. Hearts and gizzards are easy to find in the market. Ooma sells it ground.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

My understanding is that heart from any animal is considered muscle rather than organ in a dog's diet. It's the secretory organs that they need. Beef heart made up the majority of the meat for my dogs, although they got a significant amount of chicken and occasionally the more exotic stuff from MPC.

Incidentally, Steve Brown's book about the canine ancestral diet has a once-a-week plan for people who don't want to go to raw feeding entirely. There's one for dogs that eat premium kibble and another for dogs on lesser quality kibble. That's how I eased into raw feeding.

I agree with Critterluvr--if I had tiny dogs, like PB, I'd consider using premade, ground raw foods.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The meat people at Safeway and at another store, Winco told me that it's not likely I'll find chicken necks around here at all. There are no chicken slaughter houses around. I think there might be one way up north which I'd be willing to drive. I'm calling them today. I see that many things are going to be difficult to find...the unusual animals and all the different organs and things. 

Buying pre-made doesn't appeal to me because I want them to chew on bones, not eat already ground up stuff. Is 3 times a week enough for their teeth? Don't they need to chew on something to clean their teeth every day? Plus, it's annoying to me that it is so expensive...way more than food for humans. It just makes me mad. I did feed a pre-made raw and even for my then 4 little dogs, a bag of those medallions disappeared very quickly. It's just ridiculously expensive. I am partial to the idea of tossing them a bone with meat on it and a few times a week feeding sardines, tripe, (canned if I can't find fresh) and organs what...a few times a week? Salmon once a week? If I could just get the logistics down and find the darn foods....

If I do feed a mixture of ground meat, 10% organ, 10% ground up bone, couldn't I buy a grinder and make it myself? That could be fun, right? lol. Then I could add some veggies and berries and things. But the way I understand it, they really don't need veggies and so forth...that if they were wild dogs, they would not be eating those things most likely unless they happened on someone garden. lol. Maybe some berries out in the woods they'd find. I've also read they don't digest vegetables very well at all unless they're broken down first for them very well. Or is some undigestible vegetation or roughage just good for the poop? 

So I'm all worried about not finding chicken necks or a bigger variety of meat. A chicken wing is exactly what Chulita gagged on so badly. Grrrrr. They're just not in these grocery stores around here. Maybe in Seattle. There is the famous Pike Place Market and also more ethnic stores like Uwagimaya's, a well known and awesome Japanese super market. (does anyone have one of those?) I'll call those places today as well as Sylvana Meats. That's the butcher I'm thinking of up north.

Oh gosh, you guys make it sound so easy. I must be in the wrong state. Washington is one of the largest agricultural states in the US but I can't find chicken necks! :argh:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It does sound complicated, I know, but it is no more complicated than feeding a human (although I would probably be much healthier if I paid as much attention to my own diet and treats as I do to what my dogs eat!). I am not an expert, but this is a distillation of what I have learned through extensive reading and research.

Firstly, there is the phosphorus/calcium balance. Meat is high in phosphorus, bone is high in calcium (that is oversimplified, but...). If you feed meat without bone you need to add some other source of calcium. If you feed bone, it needs to be around 10% by weight to get the balance right. A bit more won't harm (I have read up to 25%, which seems high), but much more may lead to excessively dry poop or even, especially in a dog unaccustomed to digesting bone, impaction and blockage. 80% muscle meat to 10% bone is about right. A chicken wing is about 45% bone, so really needs to be balanced with another, lower bone meal (Bone And Food Values For Raw Feeding Dogs - Dogs Naturally Magazine).

Organ meats contain essential nutrients not present in muscle and bone (heart is a muscle) - the easiest to find are liver and kidney, although a balanced ground dog meat probably includes a much wider range. Organ meats need to be around 10% of the diet, with about half of this liver. Organ can be rich, especially the liver, so it is usually better to feed a little at a time rather than in a couple of meals a week.

Tripe has a reasonable phosphorus/calcium balance, and can be a natural source of probiotics. Historically some kennels fed little else. I suspect their dogs were fed outdoors...

Fish oils are generally considered a Good Thing, in appropriate quantity (it is easy to overdo it, especially with very small dogs). For a toy a can of sardines or the equivalent of salmon each week is about right (canned tuna is not a good source, nor is Cod Liver Oil with added vitamin D). Mine get raw ground salmon and chicken, and love it. Salmon and trout needs to be frozen or cooked to be safe to eat.

There are nutrients in vegetables not readily available in meat - I have noticed that if my two are fed a mixture of vegetables they are less prone to snack on the buffet of predigested vegetable matter spread for them by sheep, cows and rabbits! Dogs lack the ability to digest cellulose, so fruit and veg needs to be liquidised or cooked till soft. Adding the cooking liquid helps minimise vitamin loss. I add about 2oz/60g of vegetables for each 16oz/450g of meat/bone/offal when I am making a mix, but it is an inexact science. No onions, or grapes, or other dangerous foods of course.

Variety is key - eggs, curds, yoghurt, etc can replace some of the meat, etc, etc.

And then it is time for My Great Poop Watch - 
Hard, dry poop = probably too much bone. Add pumpkin, green veg, a little liver, reduce the amount of bone.
Squidgy poop = often too much liver, or green leafy veg (Sophy in particular is prone to the squits from spinach or kale). Pumpkin, increase bone at next meal (eg a chicken wing), reduce liver and green stuff
Orange squidgy poop = Someone has given Sophy turkey, or either dog too much fat. Bland diet for a day or two, trim fat from the offending food batch or throw it away.
Feel free to extend the list!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Yup, exactly what fjm says! 

Well, with one exception. I didn't cook fruits and vegetables for my dogs, but I did use a wide variety, chop up fine in a food processor, and freeze in muffin tins. I'd thaw out one "muffin" for each meal (we feed twice a day) and split it between the two dogs. I used fruits and veggies more to replace the fiber my dogs didn't get from skin, feathers, fur, etc. than for nutrition, but given that I whirled/crushed them in a food processor, the dogs probably got at least some benefit.

The biggest deficit the nutritional evaluation showed in what I fed originally was a lack of iodine. There was barely any, and given that iodine is critical for a good many bodily functions, that could have been detrimental in the long run. I added Berte's Naturals Green Blend (which is largely kelp, iirc) to fix that problem.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh-h-h...Fjm, I'm feeling discouraged already. Your information is wonderful. But I just spent about a half hour trying to get the skin off the chicken wings. Did you ever try to get skin off of wings? 

So I'll read over all your posts again and I'll try to call these places today. I have to run out now to take a look at my son's dog who seemed to have seizures all night or else it's vestibular by his description. Anyhow...may have to take her to the vet. So, crazy busy. 

They did eat their chicken wings with some extra meat and Jose` pooped and it was just peachy. So, will see what to do for tonight's meal. I also offered them some green beans from a can (rinsed to get all that salt away) and the Poodles haven't acquired a taste for them but dabbled with them a little. I am paranoid they've had too much bone compared to meat. 

So thank you all again. I'll take another look at your info when I get back. Fjm, your last post looks to be chalk full of good info. Thank you. :adore:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have never, ever skinned a raw chicken wing! They get half each skin and all, and the cats get the same. They are fed twice a day, with chicken wings every third or fourth meal, if I have any.

I give the dogs PlaqueOff, which is made from seaweed - I reckon that should take care of the iodine requirements.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Say, PoodleBeguiled, what do you think about starting slow with just one meal (perhaps breakfast) of raw and then give your boys the usual kibble or whatever you currently feed in the evening? That way, you know they are getting balance for at least 50% of their diet while you experiment with what is locally available. It took me months of doing something like this to begin to gain enough confidence. By doing it gradually like that, I was able to slowly get comfortable and also try new things with Dulcie. I was also able to take my time to look for sources (and I am still keeping an eye out for new ones) without feeling that anxiety about it because she was eating just fine with her raw in the morning and kibble in the evening.

I don't know about the northwest, but many supermarkets order their chicken and turkey either daily, weekly or bi-weekly. And if you ask at the meat counter, they can often add chicken necks to their order - because it is coming from a wholesaler somewhere who DOES have access to a chicken farm/processing plant. It might be worth a try! The other possibility is to have My Pet Carnivore ship them to you via FedEx. The ship all over the country, even though you an't get the truck delivery out your way, of course (they are based in Indiana and only drive within 1-2 states around Indiana, I think). 

If there is an Asian market near you, that would be a great place to ask about necks, feet and other parts. Another possibility is to buy whole chickens for your own use and save the necks, gizzards and heart, liver etc to freeze for the dogs,

As for the wings, I just don't think you need to skin those! I would not worry about that at all. I would not even worry about the thighs unless they are very fatty with a big fat flap of skin (which ours usually are). But skinning a thigh is quick as wink. You hook a couple of fingers under the part that is moving away where it was cut and push your fingers under and lift it right off. Seriously easy once you get the hang of it - I can skin a package of 12-16 thighs in less than 2 minutes. If I can, you definitely can too!


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh-h-h...Fjm, I'm feeling discouraged already. Your information is wonderful. But I just spent about a half hour trying to get the skin off the chicken wings. Did you ever try to get skin off of wings?
> 
> So I'll read over all your posts again and I'll try to call these places today. I have to run out now to take a look at my son's dog who seemed to have seizures all night or else it's vestibular by his description. Anyhow...may have to take her to the vet. So, crazy busy.
> 
> ...


Just wondering, why take the skin off? I've never heard of it and don't do it for Mira.. she got raw chicken last night and munched on it skin, bone and all. If I had to spend half hour "cleaning" all the raw pieces I wouldn't want to do the diet either!

There are LOTS of great advice being given here, it's helping me set up my raw diet in the future. I don't know if this will help but there are usually south asian stores with butchers located in the back, and that's where I get my meat.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes, absolutely don't worry about getting the skin off the bone, the skin is an important part of the diet too.

Don't worry about balancing the calcium/phosphorous etc. You'll drive yourself crazy and it's not necessary, it will all balance out in the long run if you give them variety. 
They don't need meaty bones every day, 3 days a week is probably just fine.
The rest of the time give them a ground mix or sardines or eggs, or veggies....feeding small dogs should be a piece of cake because you need so little. Lol.

My thoughts on veggies and fruits is that they need them. I observe my own dogs when they are out and about on our acreage and they graze on grass, eat whatever berries are in season off the vines, pick apples from the trees, dig up carrots from the garden....so therefore I feel this is all and should be a necessary part of their diet. I do run most of it through the food processor first though so it is easily digested. 

PB....I'm surprised you are having a hard time finding something as simple as chicken necks. You are just across the water from me and that sort of thing is abundant here! Have you tried phoning around to different butchers to see if they carry pet grade meat? Also chicken backs would be fine too, just cut them up abit. That's another thing that is easy to find, around here anyway.
I would imagine anything you found in Pike market might be pricey? There must be butcher shops in the Seattle region?

Also, I too have considered grinding my own meat but you would need a commercial grade grinder and those are very expensive.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I had trouble finding chicken backs, so I had a local meat market order them for me in a 20 pound box. I froze them, four to a zipper bag, and used a bag per week. You might be able to do the same with necks. 

We had a chest freezer, and we bought a second refrigerator especially for the dogs' food, so I could store and thaw what I needed for a couple of days at a time.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Goodness! You guys are so much help. Thanks a million. Well, I haven't gotten anything done that I wanted to do. My son's dog had multiple convulsions last night apparently. I was summoned a while ago and have been attending to that with him. 

I asked the grocery stores I went to if they could order the necks, but they can't. I am going to pursue this though and try to find them somewhere. I think I've so far been doing too much bone to meat so tonight should I just give some meat, maybe a few tid bits of liver and some of that tripe in a can that is actually a complete meal? Or any suggestions? But keeping in mind, I'm trying to follow the advice to do a week or so with just one kind of meat. So the liver might not be such a good idea. It's beef liver. (I didn't read when I got it) They don't seem to have any trouble with the chicken so far. But I have yet to watch the Poodles go poo today. Jose` did though.

Nifty...yes, that may be the way to fly...one meal of the usual premium canned and a bit of TOTW kibble and one meal of plain chicken and chicken with bone on 3 days a week? Then after one week, try some other meat, like a spare rib? Ribs are kind of soft, right? And again, just bone 3 days a week?

The reason I thought the skin should come off is that it's fatty, right? And too much fat is no good...(pancreatitis?) But if you say I don't need to, then that's great because I also sliced my finger with the knife. I do that a lot. Oy! The thighs, I have no problem getting the skin off. It was the wings. It's on there so tightly. Good heavens!

Thanks Critterluvr for your ideas about veggies and sharing how you do things. I am also surprised at how difficult it is to find necks. I think the whole chicken just might be the ticket. I can get one neck, two wings, the back, the organs etc and maybe save one leg or two for me. lol. But there will only be one neck and that seems like a very good thing for them. So, I'll call around asap.

You people are a wealth of knowledge about this. I certainly do appreciate you and your stories of how you got into it, what you feed, solutions to things. And plus...it's just very interesting. :adore:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm starting to lean toward at least one meal a day being Nature's Variety pre-made frozen raw. I'm so paranoid I'll feed them in such a way as to make them deficient in something. Grrrr. I do want the benefit of the teeth cleaning, chewing satisfaction but do not want broken teeth or perforated intestines. While doing more reading, I came across this: The Raw Debate | Modern Dog magazine

What do you think about that? Of course, there are risks in every way dogs are fed I guess. I do like the positives though, of raw diets. 

Last night I was worried they were getting too much bone so we skipped a bone and they had some steamed veggies (carrots, green beans, a little bit of kale and a tad bit of ground flax) and then pulverized in the Vita-Mix. They got about a TBS of that with a couple bites of beef liver and a large TBS of that canned tripe that has other stuff in it too to make it complete. I couldn't see well when they went poop because it was dark but I think they might have had loose poo. I'll find out when I go out to clean up in a while. So, to get that balance right so they don't have digestive difficulties is a challenge in itself. Oy!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I do think it can be tricky getting the balance just right, especially as what suits one dog may not another. Poppy tends to be costive - what is right for her is a tad too loosening for Sophy. It all seems to work out in the end, although there were a few unpleasant sessions while I worked out that Sophy cannot tolerate turkey - I wondered why we always seemed to have toilet trouble at Christmas! 

I have been feeding all my animals a home made diet for years - cats are more difficult as they are obligate carnivores, but then again they self supplement by hunting. I would not get too hung up - food manufacturers have taught us that it is impossible to put together a safe dog diet without a team of nutritionists, analytical scientists, and even more marketeers. I am not evangelical about it - I feed the cats occasional kibble because they love it and it is an easy way of giving Pip his medicine; I feed all of them home made because it is a lot cheaper than the commercial alternatives and I like to be in control of what they get. 

Once you sort out a recipe that works for you and your dogs (mine is 5 pounds assorted 80:10:10 dog minces, 8 ounces mixed vegetables, water) it becomes very easy indeed. I used to buy heart (taurine for the cats), liver, kidney, meat, and vegetables and spend ages trying to get the proportions exactly right, with just the right amount of ground eggshell, and a pinch of this, that and the other. Now I am rather more relaxed. I think you have to go through the careful measurement stage to be able to relax though - it's a bit like new Mum's using a clean cotton bud for each of the baby's ears...!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you Fjm. I'm beginning to get it through my thick, overly detail-minded skull that I don't need to worry too terribly much about "balance" because it's over some time, not every meal. 

Lookie here what I came across! I'm still reading but it is really, really a good paper. It makes me more determined than ever if it's all true. After all the stuff about commercial food, I finally got to the part about the benefits of raw feeding. I'm in the middle of that now. Wow!

http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/Research Paper - Raw Diet v Kibble Diet .pdf


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

That was a well-written and comprehensive article!

One thing I was wondering about (and still wonder about as I am feeding mostly grinds and minces) - and this article pointed toward it too. Does raw feeding itself help with periodontal disease or is it just the raw meaty bones part of it that is beneficial for dental health? In other words, if we feed our dogs a totally raw diet using minces and grinds but few or no RMBs, will there be the same periodontal disease protection?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Without positive proof, I believe it's the bone scraping and pressing between the teeth and gums that assist with cleaning and scraping off the plaque. However, the absence of grain may help too. But I would need to do more research to know for sure. What I read in an article that was on the link you posted in your thread from that company that you get your food from was that the chewing of the bones is the significant factor in keeping the periodontal condition healthy.

I also read this morning earlier in another article that chicken necks aren't so good for little dogs, as the bigger bones are less apt to be swallowed whole or choked on. But who knows...there are so many opinions. I figure they can break off a hunk of bone, which Jose` did and swallow quite a large piece regardless. I think if the bone is too big or dense, there might be more chance of a broken tooth.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

This is just a snippet from another article. The rest you can find in the link below.



> There is still one primary rule of thumb when feeding small dogs and toy breeds, and that is to feed big! A small dog does not need small food when it comes to raw diets. That means steering clear of chicken necks and wings; these are too small and are too easy for the dog (yes, even a toy dog!) to attempt to swallow whole, which then results in gagging or choking (natural responses, but scary to see!). One of the endearing personality traits of many small dogs is that they think and act like they are much bigger than they really are. This goes for feeding, too. A pint-sized Chihuahua is still going to think it is a huge wolf-like dog when it spots that raw meaty bone. The behavior is ingrained, and the desires to rip, tear, chew, gulp, and swallow (sometimes with emphasis on gulping and swallowing, especially if the dog was fed commercial food before) should still be very strong. So get rid of the lone chicken wing and neck; only feed those if, and ONLY IF, they are attached to half of a breast, half of a chicken, or a whole bird.
> 
> An additional reason to feed big food is also one of the primary reasons for feeding raw: to keep those teeth clean and healthy, which in turn will keep the dog healthy by preventing nasty "foul mouth disease" from developing and affecting internal organs. Those little dogs need just as much chewing, ripping, and "flossing" action as the big dogs, and many argue that they need MORE than big dogs because of their unique mouth size. To keep those teeth and gums healthly, little dogs need to have a grand time chewing and shredding their food; of course, the easiest way to allow for this is to feed big pieces that will challenge them and require a workout.


Myths About Raw: Can toy breeds and small dogs eat a raw diet?


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Nifty....I would think that it's the feeding of meaty bones in the raw diet that keeps them free of periodontal disease. They are nature's toothbrush.

I would think that if you only fed ground meat that you would still have tartar build up problems, although probably not as bad as dogs on kibble.

Also, a note on chicken necks. I bought a large bag when I first started raw but Millie (my goldendoodle) just slurped them down without chewing them. This made me nervous so I don't use them anymore.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks Poodlebeguiled and critterluvr, that was what I figured. I still give Dulcie turkey necks and chicken pieces and country style ribs a couple of times each week but I did wonder about that.

Now I am going to start another thread with next question instead of hijacking Poodlebeguiled's thread!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Last night I was worried they were getting too much bone so we skipped a bone and they had some steamed veggies (carrots, green beans, a little bit of kale and a tad bit of ground flax) and then pulverized in the Vita-Mix. They got about a TBS of that with a couple bites of beef liver and a large TBS of that canned tripe that has other stuff in it too to make it complete. I couldn't see well when they went poop because it was dark but I think they might have had loose poo. I'll find out when I go out to clean up in a while. So, to get that balance right so they don't have digestive difficulties is a challenge in itself. Oy!


As I recall, it took some time (maybe a few weeks, maybe not that long) for my dogs to adjust to the raw bone. They had some hard, dry stools that occasionally had pieces of bone visible. I was careful about keeping the bone to around a 10% average over a week or so, added the raw veggies and fruit, plus a tablespoon of pumpkin every day, and that took care of it.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My problem is math. lol. How do you figure out all that when you're just grabbing a meaty bone for one meal, something else for another etc? I guess if I laid everything all out on a table that I was going to use for a week, I might be able to get an idea of what 80% is. lol. But as it is, I've been just grabbing a piece of chicken with the bone one meal, some chicken without the bone for another and a couple bites of liver. This morning eggs, shells, green beans pulverized in the vita Mix for a mid morning extra meal. I have no idea why. And just now they got a few medallions of some pre made (Nature's Variety) chicken mix. 

Okay, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. But anyhow, if I could figure out the percentage right, I might get the hang of this yet. 

Nifty, you couldn't hijack my thread with that. I'd love any kind of discussion about this. But I'll scoot over to your pad now and keep an eye on it over the next few days.

Eta: I see no one has popped in on that one, so I'll wait till the experts give us something there. lol.


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> My problem is math. lol. How do you figure out all that when you're just grabbing a meaty bone for one meal, something else for another etc? I guess if I laid everything all out on a table that I was going to use for a week, I might be able to get an idea of what 80% is. lol. But as it is, I've been just grabbing a piece of chicken with the bone one meal, some chicken without the bone for another and a couple bites of liver. This morning eggs, shells, green beans pulverized in the vita Mix for a mid morning extra meal. I have no idea why. And just now they got a few medallions of some pre made (Nature's Variety) chicken mix.
> 
> Okay, you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. But anyhow, if I could figure out the percentage right, I might get the hang of this yet.
> 
> ...


I heard that when it comes to feeding raw, it isn't about giving them a well balanced meal in one day. It's about giving them a _variety_ over time. It is like us, we do not have a perfectly balanced meal morning and night. But our diet gets to be balanced over months time. I hope I'm explaining that right... 
As for the itty bitty details I think the other experts will chime in!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

You are right Mithy......don't sweat about balancing it daily.
Variety is the key and it will balance out over time.


Where I live pretty much all of the ground mixes have organs and bone already mixed in, but I guess it's not readily available like that where some of you live.
In that case I would just premix batches and freeze it....adding a small amount of veggie mixture and a small amount of organs to the ground mix. It doesn't have to be perfectly measured either, just think one tenth of each ( in comparison to the ground), it's really not a whole lot. 
Then feed meaty bones about 3-4 days to make sure they get the bone too, as that's a very important part of a raw diet.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you so much Mithy & Critterluvr...you make it sound so much better. Maybe I could report what I've been feeding for the next few days or week and you experienced people can tell me if it looks okay so far. I've been writing it down each meal. I started feeding raw on Tues, the 15th. I'll keep on reading in the meantime and try to find out where I can get some of the things that are proving a little illusive. Thanks sooooo much!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am interested in the idea of feeding large bones to small dogs - but not quite sure how I would make it work. Each dog needs 200 - 250 kcals per day, and they are fed twice a day, so that means portions of around 100 kcals or 40g/1.5 oz bone in chicken. Either I give them big chunks, let them eat it all, and skip a meal or two (which would not be popular), or I let them eats some and then remove the chunks, refrigerate them, and bring them out at the next meal, and the next... They would also start by ripping off the meat - probably two meals - and then eat all the bone at once at the third. I can see how the theory works, but can see big problems with the practice!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Don't know if this will help, but here are five days of meals for a 50 pound dog. I made these up for my husband when I was out of town.

Day 1
Morning
8 oz meat
1 egg
1.5 oz veg
1 tsp fish oil
1/2 tsp green blend
Evening
4 oz meat
2.5 oz liver
1.5 oz veg
1 chicken back

Day 2
Morning
8 oz meat 
1/2 can sardines
1.5 oz veg
1 tbsp. oat bran in 1/4 c water
Evening
6 oz meat
2.5 oz liver
1.5 oz veg
1 chicken back

Day 3
Morning
6 oz meat
1 oz ricotta cheese
1.5 oz veg
1 tsp fish oil
1/2 tsp green blend
Evening
4 oz meat
2.5 oz liver
1.5 oz veg
1 chicken leg quarter

Day 4
Morning
6 oz meat
1.5 oz veg
1 tsp fish oil
1/2 tsp green blend
Evening
4 oz meat
2.5 oz kidney
1.5 oz veg 
1 chicken leg quarter

Day 5 
Morning
8 oz meat
1 egg
1.5 oz veg
1 tsp fish oil
1/2 tsp green blend
Evening
4 oz meat
2.5 oz kidney
1.5 oz veg
1 turkey neck

I've got a chart with the % meat and bone for chicken parts and some others. I'll post that on nifty's thread about RMBs.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Very helpful indeed, JudyD! Thank you!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That is nice to see Judy. Thank you for posting that. What an organized looking diet plan. Even though the amounts won't be the same for my dogs, it gives a good picture of an over all menu. Now, what is green blend? And why is it just a half tsp for your dog? That has me curious. lol. Is that the stuff mentioned before that has all kinds of essential minerals/vit in it?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

"What is green blend?"

Thanks for asking that question PG! I was wondering, too!


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

When my diet plan was evaluated, it was almost devoid of iodine. Over a period of time, that would have caused real problems. I found a good source of kelp, but it was in Canada, and there was some problem getting it into the US, so I looked again and found Berte's Natural Green Blend. Don't remember how I came up with the half teaspoon. Maybe the recommended amount was on the container--I'm not at home right now so I can't check.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Ah-ha..now I remember from the other post. I have some kelp in capsules for humans and even some sea weed...supplements. Would that be good? I wonder what amount. Or do you think I should just get the Berte's? Or go to the beach and get some kelp and sea weed? lol. I'd probably wind up poisoning my dogs. I think there are some that are edible and some not. Would feeding sardines a couple times a week take care of the iodine problem? That is definitely scary to not have enough. Well, thank you everyone for all your wisdom and experience.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Ta-daaa! I just created these meat balls, a masterpiece of culinary delight. Don't you just want to gobble it up? Here's what it has in it. It'll probably give them diarrhea for all I know but it's a mixture without bone for when I don't want to give them bone...when they've already had too much bone or enough bone.

*Ingredients:* About a lb of ground turkey, (I forgot to look at the label and I can't even find the label now but it's one of those typical-sized, rectangular packages. It was freezer burned but I think it's okay for the dogs.

a can of sardines in oil, 

about 1/3 yam, steamed and minced,

few pieces of raw liver minced up (I would say the pieces were 1" x 1 or 2"...maybe 6- 8 of them) 

some of my vegetable mixture from yesterday (green beans, small amount of kale, carrots)

raw egg, shell included, previously pulverized in Vita Mix machine

blueberries... about a small handful

5 or 6 capsules (opened) of kelp

1 little squirt of L Carnitine from a bottle I have for me

So what do you think of that? Or shall we wait for the evidence after their afternoon dinner. I'm going out and have to leave before their usual time. Either that or give them a late dinner. Maybe I better just give a tiny amount before in case they have digestive difficulties. (?) And some more when I come home? What do you think? :ahhhhh: Maybe I should have stuck with chicken, not turkey but I had this and wanted to use it. Oh dear...:afraid:

Eta: I do have some fish oil capsules (for me). Should I drizzle some of that over the meat balls or is the oil that came with the sardines enough?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

They look great, but I might cut back a bit on the kelp in future batches. I seem to recall that iodine is one of those things where too much over a long period is not a good idea. My dogs get PlaqueOff which is seaweed based - the quantity for a small dog is probably less than a 10th of a level teaspoonful a day!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh dear...should I not feed it to them? I had no idea that would be too much. I think I need to find a diet that's specific for my dogs and their size...a whole menu, all spelled out for a week or two. Maybe I should consult that nutrition person I had fix up a liver friendly diet for my Dobe when he was so sick. 

Thanks Fjm. Yeah, the bottle says (for adult humans) 1-2 capsules a day. I just can't do the math when I'm looking at a lb or more of meat and then egg and all that other stuff and figure out how much to put in. This batch is probably about 3 or 4 meals for 3 dogs. My neighbor who was moving gave me that turkey that he had had in his freezer for a long time so it wouldn't bother me to throw it out. Better waste then make my dogs sick or something. Oh dear...this whole thing is starting to freak me out.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Those look great, Poodlebeguiled! Wow! You are creative! 

I wouldn't worry about the kelp - I would just not add it in for the rest of the week in other meals and that way you have given the dogs their insurance but not overdone it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Absolutely - don't chuck it, just freeze and intersperse with other stuff. One reason I am wary of adding supplements is that it is so difficult to get it right for tiny dogs - would you believe I actually got a set of jeweller's scales off eBay when I first started, so that I could weigh things to the microgramme?! And then never used them anyway! As you say, it is a balancing act, and at first you teeter a bit from one extreme to the other, until you find what works for you and your dogs.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

PB....those meatballs sound absolutely perfect to me. I personally would not add the kelp or the L Carnitine.

You could feed those every day just fine, they sound perfectly balanced. Then replace them about 4 meals a week with some sort of meaty bones instead.
Also when you make a new batch use a different meat source suchas ground beef or lamb. ( I would constantly alternate between 2 meat sources) And romaine lettuce is also a good leafy green to add as a veg as well, just run it through your food processor first.

Adding supplements just complicates things and I don't feel are necessary. A good variety of veg, meat/bone/organ sources and occasional eggs will give them everything they need.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh thank you! I was ready to throw in the towel this morning and go back to a good canned food and their Totw kibble. However, it would be hard to convince them because I offered them their canned the other day to replace one meal of raw and the Poodles would have none of it...turned up their little Poodly noses at it. Of course, Jose` had no problem with it or anything else. I just felt so discouraged and flailing. I get the feeling I might kill my dogs. This guess work is just not the right way to do anything. 

I will alternate but in one of those articles it said something about feeding chicken only for about a week so their bodies get use to raw and actually some of their enzymes change and things have to adjust so not to skip around right away. Actually, after tomorrow it will have been one week. So, I better go shopping. 

I have loads of pork tenderloin in the freezer. They had a special at Costco....$10 off. (got these big, gorgeous hunks of pork for a couple dollars.) Would that work? Or is there something about pork? I notice there's never any pork in commercial food. 

Here's something about iodine. Interesting and it looks like there are lots of foods with iodine...that you don't really have to try too hard.

Top 10 Iodine Rich Foods - DrAxe.com

So if I just feed some kind of fish or some seaweed once a week, would that be the right amount? How the heck would anyone know? I love those seaweed snacks from Trader Joe's. And those big sheets of seaweed. 

You guys are wonderful. Just when I'm about to go off the wagon, you rally and give me more wonderful advice and encouragement.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

This thread is so helpful! 

So before I logged on this morning, I fed Dulcie and tried a couple of new things based on some of the stuff I have been reading here. I was concerned about the fish oil question because it is something I have never done. In fact, I have not been adding any additives to her diet except for a tablespoon of Honest Kitchen base mix once a day (rehydrated and mixed in with her ground meat meal).

Anyway, I took a photo of this morning's breakfast and also wanted to ask if it is OK to use the fish oil supplement meant for human consumption. I pierced it with a turkey lacing skewer and squirted about half the capsule over her food and tossed it in. These capsules contain mackerel, sardine and anchovy (and soy? not sure what that is for).

Also I added a small quantity of frozen green beans -- something she has not eaten in the past - and she gobbled them up in the process of devouring her breakfast.

I like the idea of keeping her diet as simple as possible (which was what I had been doing) with just a few ingredients -- a variety of meat grinds (I use mainly chicken, turkey, lamb, pork and beef (in that order of frequency) we also tried raw whole rabbit (because she loved the rabbit formula of kibble) but she wouldn't eat it!, plus raw meaty bones and a spoonful of the honest kitchen. A few times every week, I top with a big spoonful of greek yogurt. She also has a small bully stick a couple of times a week when I have them.

How does this look?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled, I fed Dulcie almost exclusively with turkey grinds, chicken pieces and turkey necks for the entire first month! No harm and she loved it! I did add a dollop of yogurt every few meals (because I had always been doing that anyway, even when she wa son kibble). 

The second thing I added was *pork*!! She LOVES it and it agreed with her very well. I am thinking those country style ribs (which are often on sale, too so bonus!) would be perfect for your little guys. The piece of bone on there is smaller and also it is till a good chew. It isn't even enough of a chew for Dulcie but I bet it would be great for your little guys and safer too as a rib is mostly cartilage. You could even cut off half the meat and save that for ht next meal, chopped up smaller for them?
Wow, score on getting that pork tenderloin on sale! Yes! I would partly defrost it and then chop it up into small bits for the boyos and let them have a go with a small portion each! 

I am thinking that since you have given them a variety of protein sources in their kibbles all along, that introducing new proteins in raw might be able to be done a little more quickly than for a dog who has had a single protein diet or has shown sensitivities? Maybe some of th more experienced poodle owners can weigh in on that?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What kind of bone is that? It all looks delicious. I will leave the advice to the more experienced people. The only thing that sticks in my mind from past reading is that veggies need to be really, really broken down. I think they mean into completely smooshed stuff, that they just don't digest plant matter very well. But maybe minced is good enough. I'm not sure. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. 

I'm with you Nifty on originally wanting to stick to something simple. I always thought meat and bone is all they need...that everything is in the bones and variety of meats...that they don't need vegetables at all. But the more I see from people here, it looks like some veggies do contain additional vitamins and minerals that are good for them. They sure do seem to like other things too though. That's why, I guess there are people in the dog world (you see the controversy all the time out there)who are convinced they're omnivores when I believe they're still carnivores physiologically but omnivores behaviorally...very much the scavengers and opportunists. My dogs use to pick raspberries off my vines. lol. Loved 'em. Well, it's beginning to look a little more clear to me...just a little. lol. 

Fjm, because you have little, teensy dogs too...could you type a sample menu what you do over say, a week's time? (mine again are 4, 6, and 10 lbs) And if I can't find certain things like tripe (unless it's in a can with other things which make the can a complete meal) or chicken necks, maybe write down some alternatives? I still have yet to investigate some possible sources from where to find this stuff...but I've been just crazy busy...still have things to do for Xmas. Ahhhh! If that's a bother, don't worry about it. I just feel so dumb...like I need it all spelled out...like I can't apply principles or concepts the way I can with behavior or training pretty well. With this, I seem to be operating by rote. And I hate that. Grrr. :argh:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

nifty said:


> Poodlebeguiled, I fed Dulcie almost exclusively with turkey grinds, chicken pieces and turkey necks for the entire first month! No harm and she loved it! I did add a dollop of yogurt every few meals (because I had always been doing that anyway, even when she wa son kibble).
> 
> The second thing I added was *pork*!! She LOVES it and it agreed with her very well. I am thinking those country style ribs (which are often on sale, too so bonus!) would be perfect for your little guys. The piece of bone on there is smaller and also it is till a good chew. It isn't even enough of a chew for Dulcie but I bet it would be great for your little guys and safer too as a rib is mostly cartilage. You could even cut off half the meat and save that for ht next meal, chopped up smaller for them?
> Wow, score on getting that pork tenderloin on sale! Yes! I would partly defrost it and then chop it up into small bits for the boyos and let them have a go with a small portion each!
> ...


Oh, I didn't see this while I was typing. THANK YOU! Yes they have been eating a variety of meats all along and every can I opened practically would be different. They've so far not had much trouble with their poops so maybe I could start something else now. This morning I just gave them some pre-made frozen raw. Yes, ribs would be definitely safer I'd think...softer but still enough to scrape those teeth/gums etc. Cutting off some meat is what I've had to do anyhow with the thighs because some are large and it just looks like too much quantity for those little beasties. So yes, I could try some spare ribs. You really sound like you've gotten it together. The picture of your meal there looks like it could be on one of those cooking shows. It's very pretty and well presented. I'm sure Duclie loves your gourmet preparations.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

PG, that is a small turkey neck (some of them are twice this size - thicker and longer). Dulcie loves them. I am able to ask my local grocer to bring them in. They order a box (I think 20lbs) and package them up in packages of about 4 to a package. Then I buy several packages and I put them in freezer bags so I can separate them for individual freezing by laying the bag flat. Then it is easy to just take out one at a time. I only partially thaw - enough to make it safe for teeth but not enough to make it so soft that it is tempting for her to swallow big bits without chewing and gnawing on it. If you by chance can get turkey necks instead of chicken necks, perhaps you could slice them into smaller pieces for your boys (a turkey neck is so thick that I think the slices would be safe for tiny poodles).

I so hear you on wanting things spelled out as clearly as possible. That was my biggest concern at first - and I scoured this site and others looking for exactly WHAT people did over a week in real life, rather than the general advice that is usually given. For instance, how does "provide a variety over time and it will all balance out" actually _work_ in practice?

And the concern about bone vs meat -- always a vexing question for me. It always seemed that to get the dental benefits I was looking for (my reason to switch to raw), there just wasn't enough room in the diet for those RMBs and the rest of the things needed to balance all that bone. When I read about all that could be added to a diet or all that some sources believe is necessary, I can't see how it can all be squeezed into a simple diet without the calorie count climbing too high.

Kind of like when I was pregnant and read what I needed to keep myself and the growing baby healthy - holy cow! It seemed impossible to do it without eating several large meals per day! 

Eventually, though, I think we settle into a routine that works for the dogs and for ourselves and makes sense. I am inclined to agree with critterluvr and several other people on PF who have stated that a variety of meat and RMBs is really all a dog needs (and the "variety" doesn't have to be 6 different kinds of meat - just a couple of easy to obtain sources of protein alternated works - especially when throwing in a topping of sardines or yogurt a couple of times a week -which is pretty simple, in my opinion). I agree with you that dogs are essentially carnivores - though naturally they have evolved to survive on an omnivorous diet. A wonderful adaptation, and yet omnivorous variety is not necessarily the _preferred_ or _necessary_ diet.

P.S. and just in case -- for insurance, I think the Honest Kitchen base mixes are a great way to add in a little vegetable content without getting into a ton of complication. One spoonful rehydrated in a bit of hot water, presto! Throw in the ground meat and supper is ready. It is really pretty easy and I don't worry about balance with the veggies then, either since HK is a complete balance just add protein kind of thing.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you so much for such a good post Nifty. :adore: I feel so much more confident than I did last night and this morning. But I still feel shaky with the math...the 10% of organ and 10% of bone thing. But maybe in time I'll figure it out, hopefully before I do some kind of damage. :afraid:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Wow, I just got out my calculator and figured out that for your 4lb poodle, a day's food would work out to between 1.3 oz and 1.9 oz! No wonder this transition is giving you a bit of trouble!! That's a tiny amount to try to figure out the balance. 

In case it is helpful, I will share exactly what I have been doing for Dulcie, who weighs 40 pounds. Then, maybe you can slice that down into portions that work for your little ones.

{This will not involve the recent order I made from My Pet Carnivore, because that's not an option for yo. And to be honest, because the grinds I bought there are all 100% 80-10-10, I won't be using them for Dulcie's primary diet (because I need her to have more RMBs) - but will instead treat MPC grinds like commercial frozen raw -- quick, easy and balanced meals for busy days.}

So, for regular feeding: I go to the grocer and check out the specials. Ground turkey? Check. Ground beef, pork, chicken or lamb? Yes, whichever one is on special, I buy up several pounds of two kinds. 

Then I look at the bone in meats and again look for the specials -- usually it is chicken or pork on special. I buy meaty spare ribs (pork) and chicken pieces such as thighs, leg quarters and breasts. Whatever is on special. If boneless is on special, I will get a package of that for a meal like this morning's photographed meal. 

Organ meats. I pick up a tub of chicken livers or a package of calf liver (if it is on special) and a package or two of chicken gizzards/hearts.

If they have turkey necks (or I ordered them the day before) I pick up several packages (about a dozen turkey necks).

If I am out of freezer bags (I usually am not as I recycle them constantly - but this is a guide for you of what I have done) -- I buy quart sized freezer bags. I will need about 40 on hand at all times.

I go around to canned goods and buy a couple of tins of sardines (I buy them in water - don't know if it is better or worse than in olive oil, but I opted for simple) and plain greek yogurt.

So here is my grocery check out selection:

*Ground meats (3-4 pounds each of at least 2 kinds - chicken, turkey, pork, beef or lamb, usually)

Bone in meats (3-4 pounds each of at least two kinds - chicken, pork, turkey, beef (very rarely I will get riblets on special))

Necks (about a dozen)

Tub of chicken livers
or
package of calf liver

2 packages of chicken gizzards.

sardines

yogurt

freezer bags*



Then, I go home and take an hour or so to chop, dice and package all of this stuff. I find it easy to get good portion control because weights are on the packages, so for instance a 3 lb package of ground turkey divides nicely into eight 6 oz portions. I literally run a kinife through the rectangular lump of ground meat - cut in half and then each half into quarters - done! (For you with your smaller dogs, a single 3lb package of ground turkey will yield 48 portions at 1 oz each!!!). IT is pretty easy to eyeball these amounts by first halfing the meat and then halfing the halves and so on. 

So, I then put the individual servings of the ground meat into individual freezer bags. 

Next, I get out the livers and gizzards. I look at the weight on package and again cut it up into smaller bits. Then I put a spoonful of the mixed up organ meats into each baggie, eyeballing it to look like about 90/10. This math works because the 80-10-10 is for the overall balance, not this particular meal. On a day when DUlcie will receive this ground//chopped portion, her other meal that day will have bone in it.

I continue to bag this stuff up in this manner until everything is bagged. I will have bags of ground meat plus organ. I will have bags with pieces of bone in meat on their own. I will have bags of chopped boneless meat with organ meat AND (important!) I will have bags of ground meat or chopped meat with no bone or organs included.

Label with protein source and into the freezer they go. I don't put weight on as a rule because I have already made them into on meal portions.

At breakfast times, I take out one portion of grind/organ and thaw it until still very cold and a bit stiff but malleable. Stir a spoonful of HK into some hot water and let stand 3 minutes. Chop up the ground food portion into the HK slop and that will be breakfast.

At suppertime, I offer a bone in piece of meat without organ. Nothing else at this meal. OR, if it is a neck (which is much bonier than thighs or leg quarters) I will use one of the ground meat only baggies with this meal --like in the photo from this morning)

Over the week, if stools become too dry and chalky, I know there is too much bone. That's when I make the next meal or two just ground meat. One meal with organ and one without. 
Likewise, if the stools become too soft - I leave the organ mix portions out the next day and just serve bone in and plain ground meat.

At some point during the week I will top a meal with some sardines. At least every other day, I top one of the grind meals with a big dollop of yogurt.


By buying up 20 or so days' worth of food and spending an hour bagging it up into pre measured portions, I find it really easy to feed raw. This has been working so far for Dulcie. 

*I am thinking for your THREE dogs, you could maybe follow what I do because I think one of Dulcie's two daily portions per day would feed all three of your dogs just about in correct portions. {Take out one 6 oz baggie portion, thaw until cold and slightly malleable --- divide the portion in equal halves. One half is for Jose, who is 10 lbs correct? Then for the other half, 1/3 for your 4 lb dog and 2/3 for your 6 lb dog -- done! } This would be just slightly under the portion allowance for one day for your boys, which leaves room for one serving of a RMB each day, I think. Then, if they start to gain weight or lose weight, you can lower or raise the ground portion of their meal daily and still give the RMB at the other meal for teeth. Make sense? *


Hope this is helpful!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I started with a similar approach to Nifty's - but also I feed a mixture of raw and home cooked. This is partly because I find it easier, and partly because Sophy dislikes gluey, globby food, so refused some of the minced (ground) raw. Also I did not realise when I started that with care it is OK to defrost and refreeze meat for the dogs, and I was using blocks of minced meat from my butcher that weighed around 5lbs...

So, what I do is this.

I buy batches of 20lb of assorted DAF (a UK firm) frozen pet minces, comprising 80% meat, 10% organ, 10% bone in an assortment of chicken, lamb and beef; a few of the DAF special recipe 1lb packs of minced salmon and chicken; boxes of chicken wings from the supermarket, around 2lbs at a time; a bag of frozen tripe chunks when I am feeling brave; a bag or two of frozen mixed vegetables; cans of sardines so that I always have a few in the cupboard; anything suitable on special offer - chicken pieces, lamb or pork riblets, etc, etc.

When I first started I bought a couple of hundred small plastic containers on eBay - small versions of the sort Chinese take aways come in. 5 years later I still have loads unused, as I keep reusing them until they leak!

I defrost around 5lbs of the minced meat, and often feed a meal or two raw - around 3.5oz each a day to the dogs and cats. The rest goes into a big pan with around 8oz vegetables - frozen, or from the fridge or garden. I aim for a mix of something orange, peas and beans, and leafy greens, but I don't worry too much as long as there is not too much spinach, which Sophy can't take. It all gets simmered gently with water until no longer red, then left to cool. I then portion it out into containers - the cats get mostly meat, the dogs get meat and veg - and the containers go into the freezer (allowing for a few in the fridge for the next meal or two). If the dogs are getting plump I increase the amount of veg, and decrease the proportion of meat in their packs.

The raw chicken wings are chopped in half (other bone meat into similar sized portions), and packed four halves to a container, making one meal for all four animals. The tripe (yuck) is partly defrosted (usually part of a bag at a time) and packed up into the little containers in the right sort of quantities for a meal for the two dogs. 

Twice a day I delve into the freezer and pull out a box or two. I try not to feed bone more than 1 in 3 meals; if I forget to defrost something the dogs get eggs or sardines and the cats get kibble; I aim for something fishy once or twice a week. They get a total of 14 meals a week each, so there is plenty of opportunity to balance things out.

It would not be too difficult to adapt this to entirely raw by making up a mix of meats and organs, chopping it or grinding it with vegetables or adding cooked vegetables, and adding ground eggshell or bone meal. I think the key to making life easy is to make up batches and freeze them in portions, and not to agonise over making every meal complete and balanced in its own right. Think of balance over a week or two, and it becomes much simpler, especially with very small dogs.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Another thought I had for you and your boys, Poodlebegiled. How about chicken drummettes for a RMB choice? Seems that wing tips are mostly bone and skin, but the drummette part has more meat and also a thicker little bone (more gnawing/scraping time) and also that nub of cartilage at the tip.

And for sure, if you cook a turkey for the holidays, save the neck, partially freeze it to make it easy to cut -- and then get a sharp heavy knife and slice it into slices for your boys for another RMB serving. I would serve the neck pieces still partly frozen, so they gnaw and chew on it longer.


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## Deblakeside (Oct 2, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled, I'm new to raw feeding too, so this thread has been incrdibly helpful. I've been doing just about what Nifty described as far as making up good size batches at one time. The big difference is that since Billy weighs under 5 lbs, he needs little bitty servings like your toys. So after I chop, and process I have been spooning it into ice cube trays. Once frozen I dump the cubes into quart size freezer bags. I weighed several, and the cubes are right aroun one ounce a piece. Billy requires 1.5 to 2.4 oz per day- so that works out to 2 cubes plus a little veggies. I all the bagged batches into one gallon bag so its easy to get to with searching the freezer. I have one quart bag for each of the following: 
1. ground meat- chicken, turkey, pork, or beef
2. ground meat with a dab of chicen liver added
3. bone in meat- like chicken wingettes and drummetts, pork chops or ribs
4. veggie cubes- made from cooked veggies and raw fruit- green beans, spinach, kale, sweet potato, pumpkin, cranberry, and blueberry. I use half a veggie cube a day.

I take out the frozen cubes at dinner time and put them in Billy's bowl in the fridge for the next morning. I'm giving rmbs every other day. I'm also giving kibble in the afternoon- with egg or a dollop of yogurt. I think by making up a big batch of varied veggies and dividing them up into ice cube size portions, I can get a better balance of vitamins and minerals than if I fed a different veggie every day. With such small dogs and serving sizes it works to have six or more f/v mixed together. 

The info about iodine was really interesting, and I was relieved to see that cranberries and yogurt are good sources that I am already using!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh such good ideas! I'm coming back to this thread when I can go over all your posts more thoroughly. I've been shopping all day, now want to take dogs for a walk, then dinner. But I want to go through these posts better...might not be till the morning but I'll be back. I sure do thank you all!!!:adore:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm back! Christmas insanity over, I can get back to studying this as I fumble along. Your posts were very helpful. Thank you. I found out Nifty, that gizzards and hearts, (which I found on special) while technically organs (well, heart isn't. It's a muscle) they do not count as an organ meat for raw feeding because they are lacking in nutrients that say, liver has enough of. So, they, according to this article should be treated as muscle meat. What Exactly Constitutes "Organ Meat"? - Raw Dog Food | Healthy Treats | Training | Dog Daycare Your detailed post there, was so very helpful. I do appreciate it.

So, I am ready to start my search for some variations in meats and organ meat because in the grocery store, there sure isn't much. I got the pork spare ribs and those bones are razor sharp. Once they ate off the meat and chewed a little bit, I checked the bones and OMG! Sharp edges...so sharp, I could see cutting my finger easily on them. WTH? So I took those away. The only thing they've had for bone is chicken. Lamb is too dang expensive. So I need to work on that asap.

Deblakeside, I tried your idea with the ice cube trays. I like that idea. The only thing is that Maurice, my tiniest one needs 2 of those cubes and Matisse also. Right now, although Maurice is smaller than Matisse by 2 lbs, he is more active since Matisse had surgery on his leg. But that may change. I'm still having Matisse take it a little easy on his leg on walks. I tried weighing it so I'd get it in to the right amounts but then realized that a lot of that is water. I put just a little water in when steaming the veggies but want to put that water in with the ground meat so they don't lose those vitamins. Plus, the eggs/shells all pulverized in the Vita Mix...that makes a lot of liquid so I think it works better for my situation to eye ball the volume. What do you think? Well, I guess like I've always done, the only way to be sure is to watch their weight. If too fat, reduce, if too thin, increase. 

Fjm, thank you so much. You offer such detailed and trusted information. You've been doing this a long time and I really appreciate all the helpful advice. I will keep coming back to these posts. And if anyone thinks of anything else or you discover something as the time goes on, I hope you'll pop back on this thread. I do love hearing how everything is going.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

FJM you have that poodle picture as well. What is going on?

I vary meat but not bone. I feed exclusively chicken necks, the perfect size for a toy. So Poodlebeguiled I would focus on alternating meat sources and just pick one type of bone that works for you. The bone is mainly for cleaning teeth. I don't think the nutritional value would be of any impact as most just passes on and out.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> FJM you have that poodle picture as well. What is going on?
> 
> I vary meat but not bone. I feed exclusively chicken necks, the perfect size for a toy. So Poodlebeguiled I would focus on alternating meat sources and just pick one type of bone that works for you. The bone is mainly for cleaning teeth. I don't think the nutritional value would be of any impact as most just passes on and out.



Here's something about the nutritional value of bones: The Importance of Raw Bones for Dogs and Cats They're full of nutrition but probably it doesn't matter which kind of animals the bones come from...I'm guessing.

I _do_ worry about the proper ratio of phosphorous and calcium. I grind up egg shells with eggs to put in their ground mixtures. So I wonder if that plus the bones 3 times a week is too much calcium. (?) I've been doing thighs, wings, drumettes. I called the butcher up north and they have turkey necks in 30# bags. They didn't mention chicken necks. I've gotten a big bag of Nature's Variety, frozen raw lamb and turkey (next time rabbit) to feed once a day because I'm so nervous. Jose` doesn't seem able to chew up bone (he's an old man with some missing teeth) so he's totally on that Nature's Variety now because it will have the proper ratio of bone to phosphorous and other nutrients. But he can still gnaw on a bone for his teeth cleaning a little bit. He's just not crushing and pulverizing them the way these barracuda Poodles do.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Great article. This cements my belief that chicken necks are the perfect bone for a toy. No fatty marrow and the right size. It is easy to tell if you are feeding too much bone as they will get fossil poop. Their poop gets too hard. If Swizzle's poop is too firm I just add muscle meat. Turkey neck is way too much bone for a toy. It would be great for soup though. Here is an article on ratios.

DogAware.com Articles: Homemade Cooked Diets for Dogs

I feed 4% of Swizzle's body weight plus treats. I think toys either are more active or just need a little more.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for that link CT. Lots of good info. I think marrow is a nutrient rich food though. Some fat, yes. And of course, too much fat isn't good. But lookie here:

Unbelievable Health Benefits of Bone Marrow That You Should Know - LA Healthy Living


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