# Frustrated Greeter - Having trouble explaining to trainers



## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Does this look like a scared dog to you?
























Ok no, right? So why can't I find any advice from trainers about leash reactivity that isn't based in fear lol. I'm having another training frustration y'all  Tekno can be leash reactive/frustrated greeter with dogs specifically in movement across or away from him. It is not aggressive, when the distance is closed, he chills out and greets nicely (I don't make this habit, it's just something I know from training classes). It also doesn't look like fear to me, his tail is up, his head is up, his eyes are focused, and he pulls towards the dog. I've been working on counter conditioning this since he was first able to be on a leash outside so around 3 months now. We consulted with 2 trainers, I really like the latest one but I feel like there's a degree of she thinks I can't read the signs of stress with Tekno and that he actually IS scared so the advice is avoidance all around with all dogs which I get where she's coming from but also feels extreme since Tekno is cool as a cucumber around dogs of all sizes up close. Anywho, this is all to say is do any of you have a pup that is reactive at a distance and perfectly fine up close, what did you do to work through it? Is the avoidance method really the most appropriate here? I definitely will never have him in daycare or at a dog park, but I don't want to cut off his doggy social life completely unless it's really the only way to help cool down the reactivity. What typically happens is if he sees a dog, he goes into a "proud" stance, tail up, head up, face forward, and stares. If the dog is getting further away or running past he hops up on his back legs and occasionally, not every time, he'll bark sporadically like he's trying to get their attention, less like a warning bark which sounds different and is more frantic (he does that for weird noises when he's "guarding" the house lol).


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## Bailey_Whiskey (Jan 18, 2021)

If all explaining fails, I find showing a video to the trainer helps 
That's what I did with Whiskey and Bailey and turns out what I thought was aggression was just playfulness in a huge body..


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SpiritDog covers this type of reactivity, which is soooo normal:

_“Leash reactivity stems from the fact that dogs experience restrictions when they are on a leash. On the one hand, they cannot use their body language as they usually would to communicate with other dogs. On the other hand, they cannot run over to another dog to play together. The frustration that is created by this can quickly become reactivity....”_









Leash Reactivity in Dogs


Is your dog showing reactivity on a leash? This is a very common but troubling behavior. We have explanations and training tips for you!




spiritdogtraining.com





She offers an online reactivity course if you’re looking for some structure.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> SpiritDog covers this type of reactivity, which is soooo normal:
> 
> _“Leash reactivity stems from the fact that dogs experience restrictions when they are on a leash. On the one hand, they cannot use their body language as they usually would to communicate with other dogs. On the other hand, they cannot run over to another dog to play together. The frustration that is created by this can quickly become reactivity....”_
> 
> ...


ohh nice, we're taking a similar class with Amy Cook on Fenzi for working through reactivity with play. I'll definitely add this to the cue, it looks like they understand exactly what's going on 😁


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Bailey_Whiskey said:


> If all explaining fails, I find showing a video to the trainer helps
> That's what I did with Whiskey and Bailey and turns out what I thought was aggression was just playfulness in a huge body..


Yup I think I just have a puppy that's showing his interest and curiosity, a little too enthusiastically but fear nope...this is an enthusiastic Leonberger puppy greeting him. The reason there's tension on the leash is me moving Tekno over a bit because he was just standing there like "Whatever 😎" lol this little guy is kind of bullet proof.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Nancy's Greeting Skills class might be a good option. Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - FF490: Greeting Skills: From Friendly Tornadoes to Warm Hellos It's not running until June, though.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

TeamHellhound said:


> Nancy's Greeting Skills class might be a good option. Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - FF490: Greeting Skills: From Friendly Tornadoes to Warm Hellos It's not running until June, though.


Awesome, that's actually good timing. We're enrolled in so much right now haha I really like Fenzi


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Misha sometimes shows the same variety of reactivity but only with some dogs. Usually other young dogs that are reactive themselves. I believe it is their energy he is picking up on. We have been working with it a lot. My method has been teaching and enforcing an alternative behavior. I ask for a close heel while we pass another dog. I no longer allow him to meet other dogs on leash (when I have any control over it) because I think the expectation of meeting can drive reactivity. I have seen improvement and today a dog at our nearby park (leashes required) surprised us by actually not having a leash on and it charged at Misha. He was cool as a cucumber and came to heel as asked and we just walked away without any incident. I am hopeful that continuing practice will lead to him being able to offer this calm behavior in all situations.

My suggestion would be to focus on alternative commands that give him something else to focus that energy on. When he is thinking about you he won't be thinking about the other dog. But it may be a lengthy effort to change the behavior for good.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

If two professional trainers have given you the same evaluation of your dog's behavior, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Dianaleez said:


> If two professional trainers have given you the same evaluation of your dog's behavior, I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.


Im not dismissing it. Everything the trainer told me to do, I am doing right now, and the first trainer’s advice was too generalized to really discuss here but it was aimed at aggressive/fearful leash reactive pups. Im also talking about multiple resources online as well and seeking resources about dogs with Tekno’s unique disposition in being leash frustrated. Trainers don’t always know your dog better than you do, they only see a glimpse and when I have a gut feeling that something doesn’t quite fit for my dog, Im not going to ignore that and just listen to whatever Im told. I like this trainer and will stick with them for a while, but also want additional resources so that I have the language to talk to them and create a program that works best for my dog and his unique personality.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

It's always your choice. I found that sometimes teachers were right about my human children; sometimes they weren't.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Misha sometimes shows the same variety of reactivity but only with some dogs. Usually other young dogs that are reactive themselves. I believe it is their energy he is picking up on. We have been working with it a lot. My method has been teaching and enforcing an alternative behavior. I ask for a close heel while we pass another dog. I no longer allow him to meet other dogs on leash (when I have any control over it) because I think the expectation of meeting can drive reactivity. I have seen improvement and today a dog at our nearby park (leashes required) surprised us by actually not having a leash on and it charged at Misha. He was cool as a cucumber and came to heel as asked and we just walked away without any incident. I am hopeful that continuing practice will lead to him being able to offer this calm behavior in all situations.
> 
> My suggestion would be to focus on alternative commands that give him something else to focus that energy on. When he is thinking about you he won't be thinking about the other dog. But it may be a lengthy effort to change the behavior for good.


Yes, this is one of my favorite methods Ive been working on. Right now, what he does is “sit” when he sees another dog, not every time depending on what threshold he’s at but its really coming and with the counter conditioning with food, I can also get a head whip when I call him so we can run in the opposite direction. Im incorporating play more into this now too and playing with him on sidewalks and around potential trigger zones to encourage relaxation and fun in those zones. I think it’s going well, I just wish excited greeting and leash frustration was an easier thing to find resources on. Im going through this book “Click to calm” and it’s more aimed at aggressive dogs but I think the methods still apply to frustrated puppies like Tekno. I really like the writing style and conciseness, and recommend it to others working through reactivity.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Dianaleez said:


> It's always your choice. I found that sometimes teachers were right about my human children; sometimes they weren't.


I don’t think the trainer is “wrong” I think they don’t know Tekno well yet and they’re recommending something that may be a little more than he needs. I think Tekno learned to be on a leash late at over 4 months old and is still working through that restriction, and Im not sensing fear from him. I think over time the trainer will see that too. Im signed up to work with her in private and in a group class for the next couple of months. The reason Im seeking additional advice is so that I have yet language to talk with her about what Im seeing and so that I can do the best for Tekno in the immediate- and their relationship and methods will grow over time.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Phaz23 said:


> Yes, this is one of my favorite methods Ive been working on. Right now, what he does is “sit” when he sees another dog, not every time depending on what threshold he’s at but its really coming and with the counter conditioning with food, I can also get a head whip when I call him so we can run in the opposite direction. Im incorporating play more into this now too and playing with him on sidewalks and around potential trigger zones to encourage relaxation and fun in those zones. I think it’s going well, I just wish excited greeting and leash frustration was an easier thing to find resources on. Im going through this book “Click to calm” and it’s more aimed at aggressive dogs but I think the methods still apply to frustrated puppies like Tekno. I really like the writing style and conciseness, and recommend it to others working through reactivity.


Yes I'm familiar with the book. It is very well written and the methods would probably work if used consistently over a long period of time. I like to use a heel command rather than something like a sit because it is a lot more mentally taxing for the dog. They have to pay attention to where they are, where you are, and move along with you while focusing on you. With a sit, they're putting themselves in a position that may feel vulnerable and therefore uncomfortable, and also one which gives them little outlet for energy and focus. I like the idea of using a toy. Anything that gets your dog using their brain for something else is good. At Tekno's age Misha was not good enough at heeling to follow the command the way he can now, and toys may have been beneficial instead. But I do like heeling exercises for the calm and control the dog seems to have vs the escalation of excitement that might be induced with a toy. But really you want to use whatever is going to help for the stage he's at right now.

I think you are right to trust your gut. Trainers see so much fear reactivity that they forget there are other types of reactivity. I would liken what you describe to something like barrier frustration. Rather than trying to make him comfortable around dogs (which isn't really the issue), it makes sense to try to make him comfortable with the state which is causing him frustration, i.e being on a leash and unable to interact with another dog. Taking that frustration and turning it into something else lets you show a dog that there are positive ways to work through those feelings.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Yes I'm familiar with the book. It is very well written and the methods would probably work if used consistently over a long period of time. I like to use a heel command rather than something like a sit because it is a lot more mentally taxing for the dog. They have to pay attention to where they are, where you are, and move along with you while focusing on you. With a sit, they're putting themselves in a position that may feel vulnerable and therefore uncomfortable, and also one which gives them little outlet for energy and focus. I like the idea of using a toy. Anything that gets your dog using their brain for something else is good. At Tekno's age Misha was not good enough at heeling to follow the command the way he can now, and toys may have been beneficial instead. But I do like heeling exercises for the calm and control the dog seems to have vs the escalation of excitement that might be induced with a toy. But really you want to use whatever is going to help for the stage he's at right now.
> 
> I think you are right to trust your gut. Trainers see so much fear reactivity that they forget there are other types of reactivity. I would liken what you describe to something like barrier frustration. Rather than trying to make him comfortable around dogs (which isn't really the issue), it makes sense to try to make him comfortable with the state which is causing him frustration, i.e being on a leash and unable to interact with another dog. Taking that frustration and turning it into something else lets you show a dog that there are positive ways to work through those feelings.


I think because he’s a puppy culture dog, sitting is what he does when he doesn’t know what else to do lol I didn’t teach him to do that when he sees a “surprise” dog, its like he sees one and the butt just drops 😅 I think over time with more of the play therapy we’ll be able to shape some new more active behaviors 😊


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