# Blue poodles



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Well I just came from a show on sat and have a question about blue poodles.
There was a blue poodle at the show that Allan was handling. SHE WAS BEAUTIFUL and won the breed. She look Blue and when I say Blue I mean like steel gray. I been looking at dogs online that are blue but they look almost black ? I thought this bitch was a silver at first but her face did not have lighter shades. 

So do blue poodles come in different shades ? 

She was this color With a few shaded hairs but not so much like a silver. She was a blue because Allan told us she was.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

You are probably thinking of silver at the show. Best to ask the owners what colour.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> You are probably thinking of silver at the show. Best to ask the owners what colour.


I hope I see her at the next show and I will be sure to ask her to make sure , she was very nice looking dog.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

Just letting you know that all blues and silver both start off black. Then they fade out into their colour. Blue look terrible as they are changing. Sometimes they look dirty, its a pretty bad blue really. My little bitch is starting to go blue but couldnt get the right light for the pic. She is looking blue on the backend like the dane. Will try to get better pics next week.

You can see the change in her face and on her body. She is nearly 3 yrs and still hasnt lightened out properly. Some do it quicker.

This bitch is the mum of Brads (k9kutz) girl bubbles.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> Just letting you know that all blues and silver both start off black. Then they fade out into their colour. Blue look terrible as they are changing. Sometimes they look dirty, its a pretty bad blue really. My little bitch is starting to go blue but couldnt get the right light for the pic. She is looking blue on the backend like the dane. Will try to get better pics next week.
> 
> You can see the change in her face and on her body. She is nearly 3 yrs and still hasnt lightened out properly. Some do it quicker.
> 
> This bitch is the mum of Brads (k9kutz) girl bubbles.


Yeah this is what I thought blues should look like start off black then fade a little.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Actualy I have been wondering that myself. The poodle that just won my heart when I first started doing tons of poo's was what I would have called blue at the time, now I guess you would call her silver? I wish I had a picture of her but she is a lovely dark-ish gun metal grey, not the light platinum silver I see so much of. I actualy set out looking for what I thought was a blue but ran into the same thing you did Roxy. Even the adult photos of blue looked almost black and that wasnt what I was thinking of. So I just assumed silvers could be lighter or darker depending on genetics. I picked Saleen based on a photo of her sire who's silver marking (he's a party color) were nice and dark. I thought to ask about those only after I had paid the deposit and was slightly disapointed to learn that picture was taken at a much younger age and he had faded into more of a platinum silver. Oh well. I know Beanie will be beatiful either way, but I sure wish I could expect her to be on the darker side of thing. LoL, then again I can't dye a darker dog so light silver is right up my alley


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Billy is blue and at 8 months is still quite black looking except for a slight fade on the front of his muzzle. When outside in the sun, all the ends of his fur have a reddish purple haze to them. It's different.I suspect he is going to take a long time to clear. And, yes, he was born black. Our Carly that we lost on the other hand was black and white. When she was outside in the sun, her fur took on a bluish/black color. Very different from Billy's coat._


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

That Poodle Roxy, was probably just a real cleared blue. Some clear more then others and the shades can be quite different. Also, if you breed blue to blue it can wash out more and more and make the color lighter. 

That handler should know what color the Poodle he is handling. They live with those dogs and talk to the breeders regularly. 

Also, blacks can gray out early and pe mistaken for a blue. Eli is pretty dark right now but is getting lots of guard hairs. We are pretty sure he is going to gray out like his mother did. Thats also something Karen Sisco told me about the lines in Eli. Eli's mother is out of Karens Mr Hollywood. The blacks evidentally gray out early with that line. 

Im learning there are several different things that can happen with a Poodles coat. A breed with so many different looks. Love It!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

WonderPup said:


> Actualy I have been wondering that myself. The poodle that just won my heart when I first started doing tons of poo's was what I would have called blue at the time, now I guess you would call her silver? I wish I had a picture of her but she is a lovely dark-ish gun metal grey, not the light platinum silver I see so much of. I actualy set out looking for what I thought was a blue but ran into the same thing you did Roxy. Even the adult photos of blue looked almost black and that wasnt what I was thinking of. So I just assumed silvers could be lighter or darker depending on genetics. I picked Saleen based on a photo of her sire who's silver marking (he's a party color) were nice and dark. I thought to ask about those only after I had paid the deposit and was slightly disapointed to learn that picture was taken at a much younger age and he had faded into more of a platinum silver. Oh well. I know Beanie will be beatiful either way, but I sure wish I could expect her to be on the darker side of thing. LoL, then again I can't dye a darker dog so light silver is right up my alley


Yes there are both platinum silver and silver grey. silver grey is like a steel grey. The silver grey is much darker, I just love it.

This dog here is a true blue. Its very hard to get a really nice blue and now it seems he is going silver.

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=20537

Ive watched him grow, he started off dark and now look at him.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _Billy is blue and at 8 months is still quite black looking except for a slight fade on the front of his muzzle. When outside in the sun, all the ends of his fur have a reddish purple haze to them. It's different.I suspect he is going to take a long time to clear. And, yes, he was born black. Our Carly that we lost on the other hand was black and white. When she was outside in the sun, her fur took on a bluish/black color. Very different from Billy's coat._


OT, spoospirit, your baby face is to die for. Gonna come over and squeeze her cheeks.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> OT, spoospirit, your baby face is to die for. Gonna come over and squeeze her cheeks.


_Let me know when you're coming and I'll cook dinner for us! I think you would like it here. Taffy loves squeezing and loving!_


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

I'll be there in an hour woot woot. Yay puppy cuddles


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## stoneymagoo (May 3, 2009)

Do you mean Allan Waterman?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

stoneymagoo said:


> Do you mean Allan Waterman?


No Allan Chambers, Alan Waterman is mostly on the east coast I believe.


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## k9kutz (May 2, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> Yes there are both platinum silver and silver grey. silver grey is like a steel grey. The silver grey is much darker, I just love it.
> 
> This dog here is a true blue. Its very hard to get a really nice blue and now it seems he is going silver.
> 
> ...


Oh Just love Rameze, Nancy. Bred by the always amazing Nicole Tetof and owned by the gorgeous and vivacious honey Wendy Talyntire here is Oz, thanks for sharing with the forum


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> Yes there are both platinum silver and silver grey. silver grey is like a steel grey. The silver grey is much darker, I just love it.
> 
> This dog here is a true blue. Its very hard to get a really nice blue and now it seems he is going silver.
> 
> ...


He is beautiful!!! Like a russian blue cat!!!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

k9kutz said:


> Oh Just love Rameze, Nancy. Bred by the always amazing Nicole Tetof and owned by the gorgeous and vivacious honey Wendy Talyntire here is Oz, thanks for sharing with the forum


Dont you mean Roger, Brad 

Yes he is gorgeous p4p.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

That Standard is a very pretty blue. I bet thats what Roxy seen at the show.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> That Standard is a very pretty blue. I bet thats what Roxy seen at the show.



Yes the bitch looked exactly like that dog. Allan said she was a blue and then , I heard them talking about how people dye blue dogs black to win lol


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## k9kutz (May 2, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Yes the bitch looked exactly like that dog. Allan said she was a blue and then , I heard them talking about how people dye blue dogs black to win lol


I know people dye crappy blacks, black here, to get a good intense looking colour. Dont know why you would really bother dyeing a blue, balck.


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## k9kutz (May 2, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> Dont you mean Roger, Brad
> 
> Yes he is gorgeous p4p.


Im just going to leave that comment alone hun eace:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

k9kutz said:


> I know people dye crappy blacks, black here, to get a good intense looking colour. Dont know why you would really bother dyeing a blue, balck.


Because colored dogs don't win like the black and whites in USA , its obvious that the breeders who do dye the blues blacks are on a ego trip and only care about winning.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

All showies are in it to win it otherwise why put all the hard yards into your poodle. We all say when we are new we are going just to enjoy it or meet ppl but the truth of the matter is everyone wants to win. If they never won, they go home and clip their dogs off and enjoy them being pets.

But they should never have to dye a dog to prove they have something special. If the judge cant look past the colour, its the judge that has the problem. You still take home the best dog ever


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> But they should never have to dye a dog to prove they have something special. If the judge cant look past the colour, its the judge that has the problem. You still take home the best dog ever



HAHAH I wish that was true , but people over here are crazy and want to win or finish the dog so they can breed it. 

I have to find a handler who will handle Enzo when he is an adult because my mentor told me that some handlers will not show him because he is red .....


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

You are kidding me. You dont need to title a dog just to breed from it rofl. There would be breeder/showies there that have good dogs that are hard to beat that would put there dogs in all the time like they do in Australia. Especially when there is a poodle specialty on.

Why dont you handle your sisters dog. Not sure if that is you or your sis in the pics but the stacking is great. There isnt much to training and running around the ring. Plus its expensive to get trainers.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> You are kidding me. You dont need to title a dog just to breed from it rofl. There would be breeder/showies there that have good dogs that are hard to beat that would put there dogs in all the time like they do in Australia. Especially when there is a poodle specialty on.
> 
> Why dont you handle your sisters dog. Not sure if that is you or your sis in the pics but the stacking is great. There isnt much to training and running around the ring. Plus its expensive to get trainers.


HAHA thats how a lot of american breeders think ! if its not titled it is a crime hahahah

Thats my sister in the pics she will be handling him, but we are willing to have a "known" poodle handler handle him to get a CH. I would like Enzo to be the 5th red standard to get a CH. lol other than that I doubt we will win by ourselves. My sisters plan is to just keep bring Enzo to shows so that the judges and other breeder can see what a red red really looks like, and then maybe he can win with out a handler lol. I am in no rush we will be showing Enzo for a long time. My mentor Terry still shows his dogs even if they are 7 years plus, he loves showing people that poodles come in more colors than just black and white lol


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Just commenting a bit on everything...

I think that it's crazy to go to the extent to actually die a dog. Poodle or not...its crazy! 

As for showing, Im certainly into showing to win! I dont care what anyone says, losing is not very fun. Its fun when you actually accomplish the win that you have been working towards. For me, dog showing is definately a hobby, but a very important hobby to say the least. It feeds a drive that I cant really explain and showing a Poodle give's me a real sense of accomplishment. I love it!

The breeding thing mentioned.....well Id have to say that I do NOT think you need to have a CH dog to breed it. I do like to see that health tests have been done before breeding though and that there was a actual purpose for it as well. 

I also try not to judge people that have a litter from there own dogs just because they want to experience puppies. Its not my cup of tea but I have also bought dogs from breeding's like that. Eli would be one of them. I was able to get my first pet Poodle for a cheap Poodle price because a lady bred her male and female. I couldn't afford a breeder that did health testing at that point.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> Just commenting a bit on everything...
> 
> I think that it's crazy to go to the extent to actually die a dog. Poodle or not...its crazy!
> 
> ...


Its ok to want to win Jenn , I was talking about the ego trippin people who want to win no matter what! , they will breed dogs that have health issues just to get a nice pup to show. They will also dye the dogs and do other unethical things to try to be ahead of the game. 

If you could see what some of these persian breeders do to their poor cats you would be appalled


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> Its ok to want to win Jenn , I was talking about the ego trippin people who want to win no matter what! , they will breed dogs that have health issues just to get a nice pup to show. They will also dye the dogs and do other unethical things to try to be ahead of the game.
> 
> If you could see what some of these persian breeders do to their poor cats you would be appalled


You dont know that for sure Roxy, its a pretty bad statement to make about breeders/exhibitors to think they would put it dogs with bad genetics. Dying a dog is one thing but to breed poorly bred dogs is another. It goes hand in hand when you want to win, you breed for type, temperament and soundness. I cant see many if any wanting a dog in the ring that they cant breed from later or to be breeding the same hereditary problems. They buyers would then end up getting these genetic problems and they could get their asses sued.

The only ones I know to do this to dogs is what we called Registered backyarders. They dont show or put any money into their dogs whatsover, they are thinking of the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$ that they can make.

I think if you are going to make statements like that its best to keep them to yourself cause if it gets out that you think this of fellow exhibitors you are not going to be very popular. You will also find if you go repeating what these other exhibitors have told you (probably in confidence), they will deny what you have said and you are the one that will cop it. Just remember you are new, and you are the one they breeders in the end wont sell to when the gossip really gets started.


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

Okay, back on the topic. I know Allan very well, in fact he has shown a couple of poodles. The bitch you are references is Varsity "Blue Tango" and she is actually owned by Allan. She is a blue and her color has faded slightly over time. Very pretty bitch. Blues are sometimes harder to finish when compared to blacks and whites. My black standard is now totally blue (only took 6 years to fade from black to blue).


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Just curious...how light did it your dog get? I own a blue that is still pretty dark at 8 months._


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> You dont know that for sure Roxy, its a pretty bad statement to make about breeders/exhibitors to think they would put it dogs with bad genetics. Dying a dog is one thing but to breed poorly bred dogs is another. It goes hand in hand when you want to win, you breed for type, temperament and soundness. I cant see many if any wanting a dog in the ring that they cant breed from later or to be breeding the same hereditary problems. They buyers would then end up getting these genetic problems and they could get their asses sued.
> 
> The only ones I know to do this to dogs is what we called Registered backyarders. They dont show or put any money into their dogs whatsover, they are thinking of the almighty $$$$$$$$$$$ that they can make.
> 
> I think if you are going to make statements like that its best to keep them to yourself cause if it gets out that you think this of fellow exhibitors you are not going to be very popular. You will also find if you go repeating what these other exhibitors have told you (probably in confidence), they will deny what you have said and you are the one that will cop it. Just remember you are new, and you are the one they breeders in the end wont sell to when the gossip really gets started.


HUH ? Hunny I do not think that of ALL fellow exhibitors you need to realize there are people like that out in this world not every breeder who shows is doing the right thing. No one told me anything I found out these things MYSELF over the years of going to dogs shows. I can make statements like this because they are true , I did not say any poodle breeders kennel name nor did I drop names. How do you even know what people I am talking about ? Most of the bad things I have seen have nothing to do with poodles..... 

Take a chill pill....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bamsd619 said:


> Okay, back on the topic. I know Allan very well, in fact he has shown a couple of poodles. The bitch you are references is Varsity "Blue Tango" and she is actually owned by Allan. She is a blue and her color has faded slightly over time. Very pretty bitch. Blues are sometimes harder to finish when compared to blacks and whites. My black standard is now totally blue (only took 6 years to fade from black to blue).


Thanks I did not know Allan owned her she is VERY pretty !!!!!!!!!
She took best of breed at the show. 

you said your dog is now blue ? that is very interesting is the dog considered a blue dog or is it because the black dog just faded?


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> HUH ? Hunny I do not think that of ALL fellow exhibitors you need to realize there are people like that out in this world not every breeder who shows is doing the right thing. No one told me anything I found out these things MYSELF over the years of going to dogs shows. I can make statements like this because they are true , I did not say any poodle breeders kennel name nor did I drop names. How do you even know what people I am talking about ? Most of the bad things I have seen have nothing to do with poodles.....


I don't know very many poodle breeders I but do know several tibbie folks who ARE knowingly breeding dogs with some serious health issues with no thought other than to produce a winner in the show ring.

I also know people who dye dogs  A person in my area has been known to do it pretty frequently with cockers, what a shame. Of course, it makes it all the more laughable when she parades said dyed dog in the ring and still doesn't win.... which is what normaly happens. Oh well. 

I had never heard of people dying poodles to compete in the show ring, but I have seen people put fake hair in topknots.... I was about 16 years old at the time and I must say I was a little shocked lol. The people I was helping had toys and said here hold this dog. I did what I was told and she proceeded to rubber band several inches of already hair spraied hair pieces in... I didnt know what to think. She said it was just entered to make points and her hair kept getting pulled out by one of their other dogs. Crazy... then the dog won! wow....


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

You gots to get a picture of her next time you see her Roxy...


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

roxy25 said:


> HUH ? Hunny I do not think that of ALL fellow exhibitors you need to realize there are people like that out in this world not every breeder who shows is doing the right thing. No one told me anything I found out these things MYSELF over the years of going to dogs shows. I can make statements like this because they are true , I did not say any poodle breeders kennel name nor did I drop names. How do you even know what people I am talking about ? Most of the bad things I have seen have nothing to do with poodles.....
> 
> Take a chill pill....


Roxy you really need to get over yourself. Im simply saying things get out, ppl read forum, recognise your dog and if they feel you are talking about them, and trust me anyone that has met you will assume this if they have told you something or thought you over heard them they will take it out on you. Personally I dont care if you want to listen to advice or not.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

WonderPup said:


> I don't know very many poodle breeders I but do know several tibbie folks who ARE knowingly breeding dogs with some serious health issues with no thought other than to produce a winner in the show ring.
> 
> I also know people who dye dogs  A person in my area has been known to do it pretty frequently with cockers, what a shame. Of course, it makes it all the more laughable when she parades said dyed dog in the ring and still doesn't win.... which is what normaly happens. Oh well.
> 
> I had never heard of people dying poodles to compete in the show ring, but I have seen people put fake hair in topknots.... I was about 16 years old at the time and I must say I was a little shocked lol. The people I was helping had toys and said here hold this dog. I did what I was told and she proceeded to rubber band several inches of already hair spraied hair pieces in... I didnt know what to think. She said it was just entered to make points and her hair kept getting pulled out by one of their other dogs. Crazy... then the dog won! wow....


Dying dogs and fake topknots isnt a serious problem, its just dishonest. Breeding for the sake of breeding then showing regardless of health problems or not is bad. Most dogs with serious health problems arent able to be shown. Again I know of backyarders doing this, or new ppl that are still learning but if a big wig is doing it then more fool them. More fool the judge putting them up.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_hmmmm...fake top-knots! Who would have thought? I was joking with Dianne the other day about hair extensions for Billy because I want his top-knot to be longer. I never actually believed people were really doing this!! I'd rather win honestly or lose honestly._


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> Roxy you really need to get over yourself. Im simply saying things get out, ppl read forum, recognise your dog and if they feel you are talking about them, and trust me anyone that has met you will assume this if they have told you something or thought you over heard them they will take it out on you. Personally I dont care if you want to listen to advice or not.



I can say what i want and if someone see my posts and think I am talking about them , then they must be guilty of doing something wrong ....

you are not simply saying things get out you always make my statements seem like I am just saying stuff for the hell of it "You dont know that for sure Roxy, its a pretty bad statement to make about breeders/exhibitors to think they would put it dogs with bad genetics."

Umm AGAIN it happens this is reality you make showing seem like everyone is perfect and we live in a perfect little world sorry to burst your bubble lol 

I have seen stuff happen with show breeder AGAIN I am new to poodles and have met only a few poodle people I did not say anything about a poodle breeder please read CAREFULLY !


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

By dog is actual black that has faded to blue (common for older black dogs).


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bamsd619 said:


> By dog is actual black that has faded to blue (common for older black dogs).


I did not know that ! i always thought that maybe black dogs will turn colors but not all blue that is kind of cool.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

bamsd619 said:


> By dog is actual black that has faded to blue (common for older black dogs).


_Oh, OK. Thanks for the reply._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

:time-out:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

:time-out: and :focus:


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

Some dogs do stay black... I have a toy dog that is 5 and is a true black, while other do lighten up again. I think it depends on the dogs and the genetics.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> :time-out: and :focus:


LMAO 

yes back to topic your too funny !

What would you consider this dog ?










This dog is in Enzo's pedigree and it says she is a blue phantom ?


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> You dont know that for sure Roxy, its a pretty bad statement to make about breeders/exhibitors to think they would put it dogs with bad genetics. Dying a dog is one thing but to breed poorly bred dogs is another. It goes hand in hand when you want to win, you breed for type, temperament and soundness. I cant see many if any wanting a dog in the ring that they cant breed from later or to be breeding the same hereditary problems. They buyers would then end up getting these genetic problems and they could get their asses sued.


Have you ever seen an American bred German Shepherd Dog or English Bulldog? Talk about genetic issues! 

Showing dogs should be fun but snotty people take the fun out of everything. I have found out so many things that exhibitors do to their dogs just to have that "edge" in the show ring.

Anyway Blue is a very interesting color, what I like is that is can carry all colors.

I would say that dog is just a graying blue, no Phantom about it.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bamsd619 said:


> Some dogs do stay black... I have a toy dog that is 5 and is a true black, while other do lighten up again. I think it depends on the dogs and the genetics.


That is very interesting, do you think it has to do with some dogs carrying the fading gene ?

I was reading in the Anna Nicholas poodle book that people had non fading poodles that kept their color through out there life. But i am not sure if breeders are keeping up with what is fading and what is not.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Have you ever seen an American bred German Shepherd Dog or English Bulldog? Talk about genetic issues!
> 
> Showing dogs should be fun but snotty people take the fun out of everything. I have found out so many things that exhibitors do to their dogs just to have that "edge" in the show ring.
> 
> ...


LOL GSD are the breeders I was referring to , I can go on and on about what I seen but this is a poodle forum lol ( of course other breeds bulldogs being another ) 

I wonder why she is listed as a phantom , I am not sure if she produced phantoms I was going to ask the breeder soon.


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

There is no phantom in that dog. She is a blue....


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I don't think it's a phantom either.

Blues do carry all colors. 

It seems from what I have read here and the research we have done on the internet that the degree to which a blue fades varies greatly. So I guess it is a game of time to see how much a blue is going to fade. I have seen pics of blues that look almost black like Billy does right now. And, I have seen pics of blues that look like a light Persian cat. That is quite a range. It's fun and frustrating all at the same time to not know exactly what color your dog is going to be in the end. I don't care how dark or light billy will be. I just am not a very patient person and 'inquiring minds want to know' NOW! :rofl:_


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _I don't think it's a phantom either.
> 
> Blues do carry all colors.
> 
> It seems from what I have read here and the research we have done on the internet that the degree to which a blue fades varies greatly. So I guess it is a game of time to see how much a blue is going to fade. I have seen pics of blues that look almost black like Billy does right now. And, I have seen pics of blues that look like a light Persian cat. That is quite a range. It's fun and frustrating all at the same time to not know exactly what color your dog is going to be in the end. I don't care how dark or light billy will be. I just am not a very patient person and 'inquiring minds want to know' NOW! :rofl:_



HAHHA I know its kind of wish Enzo would just stay this color , he could but I don't know.


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

I agree with Spoospirit. It is truly a guessing game. You can tell a young blue dog from a black as a "dark blue" with have a couple of white hairs mixed in and an overall diluted black look. The skin color of a blue is also different when compared to a true black.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bamsd619 said:


> There is no phantom in that dog. She is a blue....


Thanks guys I was wondering what she was from picture , it says on poodle pedigree she is a blue phantom but people can change that info when they want , i just thought maybe it could be true lol


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> HAHHA I know its kind of wish Enzo would just stay this color , he could but I don't know.


_Enzo is a very beautiful red right now and I would be so happy for you if he keeps it rather than fade. But we both have to wait for old man time. You could be one of the rare, lucky ones who's red retains its deep color. Think of it as a lottery game. You might just be the next big winner!! :first: 

I know that Dianne and I fret a bit over how much a couple of our spoos are going to clear. I absolutely adore Taffy's color right now but have no idea if she will lighten or darken. Either way, she's my baby, she is healthy and her conformation is correct, and I just love her to pieces. And, anyway, it's really a lot of wasted effort to fret because there's just no way to know. So sit back and have a :tee: with us while we wait. LOL

Ah, the joy of owning poodles...sigh
_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Thanks guys I was wondering what she was from picture , it says on poodle pedigree she is a blue phantom but people can change that info when they want , i just thought maybe it could be true lol


_Dianne has read about blue phantoms. I thought this was just a blue. A closer photo of the face would be more telling if it is actually a blue phantom. Too bad there isn't a way to see that._


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Have you ever seen an American bred German Shepherd Dog or English Bulldog? Talk about genetic issues!
> 
> Showing dogs should be fun but snotty people take the fun out of everything. I have found out so many things that exhibitors do to their dogs just to have that "edge" in the show ring.
> 
> ...


are you actually calling me snotty ound:

Ignores Roxy cause we butt heads too much :bolt:


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## k9kutz (May 2, 2009)

Geez i wish some people would really focus on growing a second brain cell......

Yes Siv, i am going to ignore to!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> are you actually calling me snotty ound:_
> 
> _ Ignores Roxy cause we butt heads too much _:bolt:_


_

I know you and Roxy butt heads a lot and it is probably a good idea if you ignore each other. It makes me nervous to read the threads and find a battle going on. Sivaro, you have years of experience behind you and certainly have a great deal of knowledge to share with us. And I am always interested in hearing what you have to share and often use the advice you offer. And, Roxy is young, excitable, ambitious, and is trying to learn, and is going at things her own way as all young people do.

But, I didn't read her post to mean that you are snotty but that she has had the experience of meeting some snotty people who are showing. Honestly, when I went to shows with Dianne, we met some extremely nice people who were welcoming and helpful and then we met people who had a snotty attitude and wouldn't even look at us (totally ignored us like we didn't exist). They are so afraid of competition that they can't handle anyone else who they view as a threat. And it wasn't because they were busy with their dogs either. They just didn't want anything to do with anyone else at the show. They never even smiled once the entire time they were there and I suppose that was because they were so intent on getting that win that they were down right miserable thinking about their competition. Fortunately, around here, they are few and far between. But in a state like CA, I can only imagine it is more prevalent.

I feel really sad for the few showers who are like this. They take all of the joy out of their showing experience with their dogs. I don't let it bother me personally. And, I don't care that they are this way with other people. I feel it can't be good for them competing with others with such a bad attitude. We all do a lot better when we are kind and help each other out. As they say, you draw more bees to honey than to vinegar.

No personal names or Kennel names should ever be dropped anywhere in public. It is show suicide!! The best way to handle anything negative is to walk away with a smile and get on with your business. Life's too short to distress over people like that. If you own a good dog, it will win regardless of those people. Dianne and I may discuss how we feel between ourselves but it never goes any further than that.

I feel the same way about the forum. There are friendly arguments where one agrees to disagree and drops the subject and there are arguments that get out of hand and become distressful for everyone. I really think that if people have very strong opinions on a subject, they should state them but not allow them to become a battleground. I don't know about others but I get so I am afraid to open the thread back up to see what's there. :bolt:

I was in town politics for four and a half years as the town clerk and treasurer and learned a wealth of knowledge about people and how to deal with them. Never burn anyone publicly because it will come back to haunt you. I saw it happen over and over during my term.

This is just my opinion but I hope it has helped someone. 
_


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> I know you and Roxy butt heads a lot and it is probably a good idea if you ignore each other. It makes me nervous to read the threads and find a battle going on. Sivaro, you have years of experience behind you and certainly have a great deal of knowledge to share with us. And I am always interested in hearing what you have to share and often use the advice you offer. And, Roxy is young, excitable, ambitious, and is trying to learn, and is going at things her own way as all young people do.
> 
> But, I didn't read her post to mean that you are snotty but that she has had the experience of meeting some snotty people who are showing. Honestly, when I went to shows with Dianne, we met some extremely nice people who were welcoming and helpful and then we met people who had a snotty attitude and wouldn't even look at us (totally ignored us like we didn't exist). They are so afraid of competition that they can't handle anyone else who they view as a threat. And it wasn't because they were busy with their dogs either. They just didn't want anything to do with anyone else at the show. They never even smiled once the entire time they were there and I suppose that was because they were so intent on getting that win that they were down right miserable thinking about their competition. Fortunately, around here, they are few and far between. But in a state like CA, I can only imagine it is more prevalent.
> 
> ...


Whoa, hang on a minute. Perhaps ppl need to read every post on this forum before thinking Im starting things. For starters yes she is young ambitious and everything else you mentioned, but I had a few other ppl lined up for this forum that couldnt help but notice her posts and said they would get into a pissing match (their words) with her. So they didnt join. I said oh she is harmless. I had noticed some advice before I started posting that ppl were being helpful when she asked advice, and she seems to think she is right so why ask the question in the first place.

Perhaps read the threads where she tried to make a joke out of me. **** Ive been into poodle only 44 yrs of my life and she knows more. OK then. I dont care about a fair discussion, but I wont be made an idiot out of. Not just her but PurpleP too. 

It was Purple poodle that I was saying about calling me snotty, not Roxy. 

What I was stating to Roxy was actually a bit of advice, she comes and tells me to take a chill pill pfft. I know how bad it gets out there, so this advice I think she should listen too, but right now I dont care if she doesnt. Your right, it is suicide out there so perhaps rather than her taking what Im saying to her as a pounding she can probably try and see a possitive out of it. I dont say things for no reason, and I know alot of young ppl get themselves into trouble. And also get sick of ppl focusing on me upsetting the next person when they have upset me.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> But they should never have to dye a dog to prove they have something special. If the judge cant look past the colour, its the judge that has the problem. You still take home the best dog ever


The pro handler I had, dyed Zoey, my "mentor" told her that she was brown, so she dyed her even though her color was ONLY dilute because she is clearing. My "mentor" also had me dye Abby before going into the ring, I though it was against the rules, but she said "do it everyone does, I want it done" she was co-owner, I though she knew something I didn't, then I found out it IS against the rules. So if pro handlers are doing it, others feel they have to to be able to compete against them I guess.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> The pro handler I had, dyed Zoey, my "mentor" told her that she was brown, so she dyed her even though her color was ONLY dilute because she is clearing. My "mentor" also had me dye Abby before going into the ring, I though it was against the rules, but she said "do it everyone does, I want it done" she was co-owner, I though she knew something I didn't, then I found out it IS against the rules. So if pro handlers are doing it, others feel they have to to be able to compete against them I guess.


lol, I never play follow the leader, mentor or not. I take their advice but anything against the rules I just wont do. There are ppl here in Oz fixing up gay tales also, as we all know gay tails look terrible. But its another dishonest thing to do. I will not fix up my gay tails, I win with my gay tails, I will not dye a dog I win with my colours that have faded. I show colours under judges and they win. If you have the right dog, they can do it. YOu will get some prejustice judges but there are many that will put up a fine example of the breed. 

Also concerning gay tails if you are trying to breed away from that, and you decided you found a nice male, and even better it had no gay tail, you will use it. The bummer is when you get gay tails flat on the back due to them being decietful. Sorry I hate it.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> You are kidding me. You dont need to title a dog just to breed from it rofl. There would be breeder/showies there that have good dogs that are hard to beat that would put there dogs in all the time like they do in Australia. Especially when there is a poodle specialty on.
> 
> Why dont you handle your sisters dog. Not sure if that is you or your sis in the pics but the stacking is great. There isnt much to training and running around the ring. Plus its expensive to get trainers.


Pro handlers rule the ring here, you can not avoid having to get one alot of times when you first start. Judges "know" the handlers "will not accept a dog that is not quality" I put it in quotes, because I know they will take a dog that is not so good for a fact. Here ALOT of "showies" as you call them make you sign a contract that you will not breed until the dog is titled and it IS a requirement. My "mentor" had me sign a contract that I would finish the dog not myself but with a Pro handler so that she was "ensured" the bitch was finished. After the pro handler finished her she would breed her to the stud of her choice and get pick of the litter, then and only then would the bitch be mine to add to my breeding program. When we she and I both took the bitch to the pro handler they not want the her that is when my problems with the breeder my "mentor" began..........she was there when the bitch was denied by the handler and she still acted as if I lied to her about being able to fulfilling my contract with her! more to the story, but you get the jist Siv? When you are a newbie here in the states, sometimes it is HARD to find not only someone you can trust to get a good pup from, but it is really not always in the cards to not finish the pup and to still have breeding rights.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I'm sorry, Sivaro. I didn't mean to upset you with my post. I was hopping that a common ground could be found and things would settle down. I checked back and see now that it was purple poodle that made that @#% remark. 

I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I tried to keep my remarks general as if they applied to all of us. And, I certainly wasn't accusing you of starting something. I was making a case for everyone to agree to continue on and be nice to one another.

I understand your argument about the years of experience that you have as I said in my last post. People like you need to be respected at the very least. But, we ALL need to respect each other regardless. Name calling and nasty references shouldn't be part of a forum where people are coming to learn about what they love.

Please understand that I was not putting blame on anyone. I just want to be able to open a thread and read it without being distracted by in-fighting. 

I was not aware of the fact that you lost prospects for this forum over this although I am not surprised. I am very sorry to hear that and I can see why this is so upsetting to you. Like I said, I am afraid to open certain threads now. So I completely understand that.

I know that unkind things were said and it isn't right and it needs to stop. And I am hoping that it does. I don't like to feel uncomfortable coming to the forum not knowing what kind of nastiness is flying around here. And I suppose this is how the people that you lost felt as well.
_


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> You are kidding me. You dont need to title a dog just to breed from it rofl.


O, I forgot, a co-ownership is usually required until the dog is titled as well.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> Pro handlers rule the ring here, you can not avoid having to get one alot of times when you first start. Judges "know" the handlers "will not accept a dog that is not quality" I put it in quotes, because I know they will take a dog that is not so good for a fact. Here ALOT of "showies" as you call them make you sign a contract that you will not breed until the dog is titled and it IS a requirement. My "mentor" had me sign a contract that I would finish the dog not myself but with a Pro handler so that she was "ensured" the bitch was finished. After the pro handler finished her she would breed her to the stud of her choice and get pick of the litter, then and only then would the bitch be mine to add to my breeding program. When we she and I both took the bitch to the pro handler they not want the her that is when my problems with the breeder my "mentor" began..........she was there when the bitch was denied by the handler and she still acted as if I lied to her about being able to fulfilling my contract with her! more to the story, but you get the jist Siv? When you are a newbie here in the states, sometimes it is HARD to find not only someone you can trust to get a good pup from, but it is really not always in the cards to not finish the pup and to still have breeding rights.


It sounds no different to how it is in Australia thats why we encourage newbies to get out there. Many ppl wont help them either, but there is always someone like myself to give them a helping hand. I make them show their own dogs, noone becomes a good experienced handler without being out there. A lady that got one of my poodle for free, started off really scared, noone would help her, couldnt buy a dog, I helped her out, trimmed the dog all the time, taught her how to handle the dog, taught her ring craft, now she wins everything all the time. Yes we can have faces (judges) here too that can show a three legged dog and win, favor for a favor, but it doesnt happen all the time. I have beaten judges, Im a nobody. Yes some of my dogs lose to dogs that arent worthy, you grin and bare it or punch a hole in the wall when you get home (only joking) but anyone can get out there and win. May not be often at first, but it happens so the more you get out there, the more experience, the more recognised you get.

Some Australians go overseas to help out occassionally so alot gets back to me. Yes I have heard some ppl go through great expense to get their dogs through. My judge friend not only judges there once in a blue moon but has also trmmed ppls dogs for months while she is over there. She doesnt understand why more ppl dont go out and fight it.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _I'm sorry, Sivaro. I didn't mean to upset you with my post. I was hopping that a common ground could be found and things would settle down. I checked back and see now that it was purple poodle that made that @#% remark.
> 
> I wasn't accusing anyone of anything. I tried to keep my remarks general as if they applied to all of us. And, I certainly wasn't accusing you of starting something. I was making a case for everyone to agree to continue on and be nice to one another.
> 
> ...


Thats ok, I was stating all this cause Im the one that gets quoted. Why cause everyone seems to feel I should not let someone get to me, well I do Im human. I also know where you are coming from, and not just saying one statement made in this thread has provoked what has happened. It started cause I disagreed with something written, Im entitled to disagree. Im not going to come onto any forum and just say what ppl want to hear. I notice everything is always rosey when I say nice things so why cant ppl take my disagreements with a grain of salt.

This same thing happened months ago so I left for a few months before I was going to really upset. Perhaps I shouldnt have come back cause I know I can be quite direct with ppl. I think if Im going to offend ppl too much then maybe its best I do leave. I have asked to be deleted in the past, but to no avail.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> O, I forgot, a co-ownership is usually required until the dog is titled as well.


Alot of dogs are coowned here also. Most of mine I have, some I havnt. To me is the main thing that ppl have tried and not given up too easily.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Sivaro said:


> Dying dogs and fake topknots isnt a serious problem, its just dishonest. Breeding for the sake of breeding then showing regardless of health problems or not is bad. Most dogs with serious health problems arent able to be shown. Again I know of backyarders doing this, or new ppl that are still learning but if a big wig is doing it then more fool them. More fool the judge putting them up.


Siv, in the US these are actually problems that sadly are real.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> Siv, in the US these are actually problems that sadly are real.


That unfortunately happens here too. Some ex friend of mine was telling k9kutz to do it with the bitch I sold him. Im not impressed about it, especially finding out that she has said this while the bitch was so young. She has plenty of hair for her age.

I know a beautiful dog shown in this country uses wigs too. Just hope they get caught when they do it.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute! I never said you were snotty Siv sorry you misread that. I responded to what I quoted of you and I thought with a new paragraph it was assumed I was no longer addressing you personally. 

Its amazing what can be misread and misunderstood on a forum innt?.


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## littlemj (Apr 21, 2009)

Hey guys,
Back to the subject of Blues,

Can a blue be born to a litter of blacks and browns? I'm looking at a puppy that is all black at 6 weeks of age. There are a few white hairs between the pads of it's feet. Does that mean the dog will be blue or silver? Can an all black dog have white hairs between it's toes? The father is black and the mother is a brown that is fading. The mother's father was a blue.


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

The simple answer to your question is yes.


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## littlemj (Apr 21, 2009)

Is that a yes that a blue can be born from a brown and black or yes that a black can have white hairs in the pads of it's feet?
thanks


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

The "yes" pertains to the first part of your questions. Any"white hairs" on a black dog is considered a mis-mark as a true black dog should not have white hairs. A blue dog on the other hand may have a couple of random (not grouped or patched) white hairs.


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## littlemj (Apr 21, 2009)

The white hairs are only under the foot between the toes, and only on two toes. Does that make a difference?


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## bamsd619 (Apr 9, 2009)

Honestly no. I won't call it a "true" black if it has any white hairs, regardless of the amount., Ifit is a inky black, tehn I would personally call it a mis-mark or would classify it as a blue depending on the coat and skin color. I hope this helps


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_littlemj, why don't you take a photo of it so we can see just how much white you are talking about. I know Billy is showing a little white flecking in his face now at 8 months and he is a Blue but there should be no solid patches however small.
_


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## Blue Fox (Oct 22, 2008)

Funny reading this thread and likening it to horse showing. We dye coats, put make up on, put in false tails, nothing against the rules (although I think the false tails are frowned up but everyone is doing it!). Some people are even keeping their horses under lights for 16 - 18 hours a day to help coat (not that I would do that). But in the dog world this would be a no no by the sounds of it.

Anyway I also have a blue, he is 10 1/2 months old now and he is very slowly lightening, streaks of silver in his ears and his muzzle is light in places can't wait till the colour clears a bit more and he doesn't look so dirty brown :smile:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_My blue is 8 months and he is going to be veeeery slow clearing from the looks of it. His muzzle is lighter toward the nose now. I have noticed the last two weeks when shaving him that he has small light hairs all over his muzzle.
_


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## Blue Fox (Oct 22, 2008)

I use to love clipping T's face to see what was happening under there, but for the last couple of months nothing seems to have changed! Hang on will take a quick pic.









You can't really see it but he has a silver patch near his nose on both sides, his face colour is a very nice steel grey these days, can't wait till the rest of his body looks like that!


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## tannerokeefe (Dec 14, 2008)

Blue Fox said:


> I use to love clipping T's face to see what was happening under there, but for the last couple of months nothing seems to have changed! Hang on will take a quick pic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


T looks like such a mature boy!! so handsome!


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## Blue Fox (Oct 22, 2008)

I think he is starting to mature brain wise too. Just in the last few weeks he is paying me more attention, being more willing to do as I ask and doesn't seem such a scatter brain. Don't get me wrong he is still 'puppy silly' which I love, and he has such a love for life, he's always making me smile with his antics.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Such a beautiful shot of T's head. He is a really nice looking boy! I hope Billy goes this color.
_


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