# Request comments on ancestry & testing



## sniah (Jan 21, 2011)

Please excuse me if this question would be more appropriate for the 'talk' side of the forum, I wasn't sure so I took a guess 

I am visiting a local breeder this coming weekend to take a look at a litter of standard poodle puppies.
Mother's testing is here. The father's name is 'Obsidian Midnight Special', and has a bunch of testing info on the OFA site as well.

The ancestry of both parents are given here.

As someone new to poodles (and dogs), it is not super clear to me how to interpret this data. Seeing lots of testing looks good, but I don't really know if this testing is recent enough, or if it is thorough enough.
I see on the sire's side that there is a whole ton of champions (at least I assume that is what "Ch." means ), but I don't see any on the mother's. I would assume this does not raise any flags as long as the testing is reasonable?

Can anyone comment on the lineage and testing of these pups?
thanks so much!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The father's pedigree to me is a problem. His father's side looks like there are quite a few serious problems going most of the way back in the five generation pedigree. The Grandfather of the litter has produced JRD. There is SA, heart murmur...Eaton Affirmed is only back three generations. Lots of "parent of" but not a lot of hip testing on the dogs themselves, and not much other testing listed at all.

The Mother's testing is current and in order. I would however like to see S/A done. In the top half of her pedigree there is almost no testing at all. Again, lots of "parent of".


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## sniah (Jan 21, 2011)

Wow, thanks a bunch for the detailed analysis! I assume you are using resources beyond the OFA site, is some of this data from the Poodle Health Registry? I applied for access yesterday, but have not yet had it granted.

I should have mentioned my intent in our search - we are looking for a pet for our family, but of course want the dog to be healthy. We are not considering breeding, and would be neutering/spaying.

Is it typical to have to put up with some blemishes in an ancestry when looking for a dog, or is it actually common to find pups that have a squeaky clean past of testing and ancestral health? Even when going to a reputable breeder, I think most lay persons like myself are not used to having nearly this much information, so it's hard to know how to process it.

When you mention the "parent of" data, I assume this means that the direct ancestor in lineage has no data itself, but its offspring do? So basically data on aunts/uncles/cousins, but not parent/grandparents?
thanks!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

sniah said:


> Wow, thanks a bunch for the detailed analysis! I assume you are using resources beyond the OFA site, is some of this data from the Poodle Health Registry? I applied for access yesterday, but have not yet had it granted.
> 
> I should have mentioned my intent in our search - we are looking for a pet for our family, but of course want the dog to be healthy. We are not considering breeding, and would be neutering/spaying.
> 
> ...


You are welcome! Yes, I used Poodle health registry. It is virtually impossible to find a puppy with no issues in its background at all. But, you want it back in the pedigree as far as possible. I have a boy who has an Addisons carrier in his background, but it is back five generations. Because it never pops up again, and because this particular dog has produced it with four different females, one has to presume this boy is the common denominator. So as long as we breed our boy to girls who do not have this dog behind them, or do, but far back in their pedigree, we feel fairly confident.

And yes...that is exactly what "parent of" means. Sometimes you will see tht the parent HAS been tested, other times you just see some of its offspring has been.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

sniah said:


> Is it typical to have to put up with some blemishes in an ancestry when looking for a dog, or is it actually common to find pups that have a squeaky clean past of testing and ancestral health? Even when going to a reputable breeder, I think most lay persons like myself are not used to having nearly this much information, so it's hard to know how to process it.


I think it is important to understand the limits of PHR. It is a volunteer registry, and many health problems go unreported. That is not to say that breeders don't know about problems behind their own dogs and a potential stud. But you should think of PHR as the tip of the iceberg. Another thing is that some dogs were used very heavily, and so we know they produced problems because after 100 litters, chances are something will show up. 

IMO it comes down to finding a breeder you trust. I'm less interested in what problems a breeder has encountered than in how she dealt with them, because I think that any standard breeder who breeds for any period of time is going to encounter health problems.


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## sniah (Jan 21, 2011)

I've seen that finding a breeder you trust is definitely a running theme for getting a healthy puppy. I'm afraid this might be a little difficult for someone who knows so little about breeding in general and poodles specifically. Part of the trust level will certainly be based on reading character.. what kind of vibe I get from the breeder on how knowledgeable and passionate they are about furthering the breed. I guess a big part of it should be based on how thoroughly they elect to test their dogs. Probably one factor should be what kind of health guarantee they give. Are there other criteria that you typically recommend someone judge a breeder against?


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

Versatility In Poodles has some good guidelines.

Versatility In Poodles - Find A Poodle


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

In addition to that great list, i would ask a breeder "If a health problem does happen with my dog, how would you handle it?" If they say that their line doesnt have any problems, then i would be very cautious.


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## Paula (Feb 21, 2011)

Just noticed this thread and it's kind of old so you are all probably off doing something else. But two comments: I know the sire of this litter - "Dexter" - well. He is a senior dog and he personally has always been extremely healthy, if that gives any comfort. He also has a wonderful, laid-back temperament. As for the sire's sire, that Arreau commented on - this was one of the most heavily and widely bred Spoos in history. How do you compare his "record" re offspring with that of dogs with much more limited breedings. It would be interesting to know how these other dogs would compare if they had the same number and variety of breedings. That is one important thing to keep in mind in looking at these reports.


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## Paula (Feb 21, 2011)

I wanted to augment my last post on the health genetics of the sire of the litter in question - "Dexter". I have looked at all I can find on the internet about the dog and his ancestors. I find no offspring of Dexter's - and he has been bred a fair amount - that shows up with a genetic issue. The owner of Dexter, who I am pretty sure would tell me the truth, states that none are known to her. The sire of Dexter - Champaign Taste ("Andy")- shows up as the sire of one reported dog with JRD. He does not show up as a sire of any dog reported with ASD(heart), Addisons, SA, or epilepsy. Yes, Eaton Affirmed is Dexter's great-grandfather. Eaton Affirmed apparently carried several genes for adverse genetic conditions. But as he himself did not express any of these conditions, they would have been recessive genes (as most defects except ASD are) and he would have only been a carrier. With each successive generation, there is a 50% chance of it dropping out. We are now worrying about puppies five generations later. I challenge us all to find any line of dogs without at least one genetic health issue in five generations. This particular litter is not line-bred to Eaton Affirmed. I think to be worried about this litter, you need to find some indication that genetic problems have been produced by a sire/dam or gransire/dam at least. Both the sire and grandsire here have a pretty good record.

I would say, sniah, that if the dam's health testing is in order, you have no more health worries with this litter than with any health-tested mating. And there are some wonderful qualities here - temperament first and foremost.


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