# Bumped off breeder waitlist?



## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Looking for some opinions. About a month ago, I visited a breeder and placed a deposit on a litter due mid July. I was one of the early ones to place a deposit on this litter and had a good pick in line. 

The breeder had two other litters due this summer with nearly full waitlists, but it was just announced those dams are not pregnant. 

So the breeder is allowing all of those people who placed deposits before me to choose a puppy from my litter, if they wish. Since there is only one litter due this summer, she is going by date the deposit was given, regardless of which litter. 

I most likely won’t get a puppy given there are about 14 other families who deposited on the other litters. I am quite shocked and don’t know if this is normal practice?

Assuming I get bumped, I can either wait for another litter or get my deposit refunded.

I just don’t know what to think. I assumed I would keep my place in line regardless of what’s happening with the other litters. 

Thanks in advance for your thoughts. I don’t really know how to respond yet but very sad realizing we probably won’t get a puppy from this litter.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

So the other dams were due later than the litter you're interested in? If that is the case then isn't it still likely you'll get a pup as it's only the deposits before you that will possibly get moved before you in line? I might be wrong. Just trying to understand what's going on.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> So the other dams were due later than the litter you're interested in? If that is the case then isn't it still likely you'll get a pup as it's only the deposits before you that will possibly get moved before you in line? I might be wrong. Just trying to understand what's going on.


Sorry, I know it’s confusing. One dam was due just before mine and the other was due afterwards, but for whatever reasons they already had more deposits than my litter.

So now she’s looking at the date the deposit was received regardless of which litter it was placed on. Essentially she has deposits from about 20 people and only one litter now. So she’s ordering the pick by deposit date instead of giving me priority on the litter I chose. Does that make sense?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Sadie09 said:


> Sorry, I know it’s confusing. One dam was due just before mine and the other was due afterwards, but for whatever reasons they already had more deposits than my litter.
> 
> So now she’s looking at the date the deposit was received regardless of which litter it was placed on. Essentially she has deposits from about 20 people and only one litter now. So she’s ordering the pick by deposit date instead of giving me priority on the litter I chose. Does that make sense?


Yes it does. I'm just wondering if there's a chance you'll still get a pup. I have not heard enough examples to know if this is normal breeder practice. I think that failure of a litter is very frustrating no matter what the breeder decides to do. This particular case works against you, which is very unfortunate. I have heard of breeders who have policy that specifically doesn't follow this plan, but I suppose there are also many who do exactly this. It's a very hard thing when you have your heart set on a puppy and it feels like the rug is pulled out from under you. I see the breeder's point of view, so I don't know that I would say it's wrong, but it is certainly upsetting to have happen.


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## Poodlemana (Sep 14, 2013)

Ok, I'm probably going to put my foot in it but...have you researched this breeder thoroughly? Having 3 litters that close together sounds suspiciously like a puppy mill. This might actually be your lucky day. You can get your deposit back and look for a more responsible breeder. I hope I'm wrong but I see it as a big red flag.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Poodlemana said:


> Ok, I'm probably going to put my foot in it but...have you researched this breeder thoroughly? Having 3 litters that close together sounds suspiciously like a puppy mill. This might actually be your lucky day. You can get your deposit back and look for a more responsible breeder. I hope I'm wrong but I see it as a big red flag.


I was wondering the same thing, as three litters close together is a lot for a breeder to deal with.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Is it usual to lose 2 out of 3 litters? That sounds really high.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Yes it does. I'm just wondering if there's a chance you'll still get a pup. I have not heard enough examples to know if this is normal breeder practice. I think that failure of a litter is very frustrating no matter what the breeder decides to do. This particular case works against you, which is very unfortunate. I have heard of breeders who have policy that specifically doesn't follow this plan, but I suppose there are also many who do exactly this. It's a very hard thing when you have your heart set on a puppy and it feels like the rug is pulled out from under you. I see the breeder's point of view, so I don't know that I would say it's wrong, but it is certainly upsetting to have happen.


Thank you, that is interesting to hear some breeders have a policy against this kind of plan. I was told the other dams were not confirmed pregnant yet, but mine was. I just feel the other depositors took on that risk whereas I did not. I wrongly assumed she would not offer up puppies from “my” litter should the other breedings fail. Lesson learned, I should have asked that question.

But yes, I can imagine it’s upsetting for all involved. Perhaps the breeder is thinking she can try to keep as many people as possible happy by doing it this way.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Poodlemana said:


> Ok, I'm probably going to put my foot in it but...have you researched this breeder thoroughly? Having 3 litters that close together sounds suspiciously like a puppy mill. This might actually be your lucky day. You can get your deposit back and look for a more responsible breeder. I hope I'm wrong but I see it as a big red flag.


Yes, I did research the breeder. They have come up several times on this forum as they do produce a lot of puppies. The only negative I could find was about the number of litters, but she keeps the dogs in foster homes (not kennels) and I did like her answers to all of my questions when we met. I read many positive reviews both here and other sites. I think she does run it as a business though, so I guess that could be why I find myself in this situation


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Dianaleez said:


> Is it usual to lose 2 out of 3 litters? That sounds really high.


I checked and it’s different sires for each litter. I am really not sure.


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## Whoiscoconut (May 11, 2020)

I personally would get the money refunded. I find it irresponsible to take someone who was set for one litter and move them to another. Meaning you had planned for a pup from Jack and judy (names just for example) then you should only get a pup from jack and judy. If someone else put money on bob and bonita and bonita's not pregnant then she should be offering them a refund or wait and shouldn't be offering a pup from jack and judy's litter that already has deposits on them. Now I could understand if she only had a few deposits on jack and judy pups and then offered the other deposit spots to the ones who planned on bob and bonita. But I fully disagree with knocking someone off of the litter they planned for so someone on another litter could get a puppy first.


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## Whoiscoconut (May 11, 2020)

Dianaleez said:


> Is it usual to lose 2 out of 3 litters? That sounds really high.


To my understanding she took deposits prior to them being pregnant and now they didn't get pregnant so she's moving them to a completely different litter where other people have already placed their deposits for that litter. basically knocking out the people who had already planned on the sire and dam who actually are pregnant.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I would totally move on from this breeder. First of all, even if she/he has dogs in guardian homes, 3 litters in a short time frame like you are describing smacks of BYB/puppy mill. My breeder might have 2 litters in a year, sometimes only one. Secondly, when I work with her to get a puppy from a litter, it is a specific litter based on my research on the bitch and the stud, the particular litter. My deposit guarantees me a puppy from THAT litter. Even if by chance, my breeder was going to have another litter due shortly before or after the litter I had a deposit on and the dam of my litter didn't conceive, there is no way she would move deposits by date placed onto another litter and bump others out from it. I went through this same scenario with my younger dog. I had a deposit on the litter and the bitch didn't conceive. So I had to wait almost a year more than I had planned to get my second pup because I had to wait for the bitch to come back into heat (about 6 months or so) and then a bit over 4 months from the time she conceived for the pups to whelp and be ready to go home around at around 9 weeks....In the interim, my breeder did have another litter. But my deposit on the litter that didn't conceive didn't bump people off the list of those who had placed deposits on the later litter.....


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Whoiscoconut said:


> I personally would get the money refunded. I find it irresponsible to take someone who was set for one litter and move them to another. Meaning you had planned for a pup from Jack and judy (names just for example) then you should only get a pup from jack and judy. If someone else put money on bob and bonita and bonita's not pregnant then she should be offering them a refund or wait and shouldn't be offering a pup from jack and judy's litter that already has deposits on them. Now I could understand if she only had a few deposits on jack and judy pups and then offered the other deposit spots to the ones who planned on bob and bonita. But I fully disagree with knocking someone off of the litter they planned for so someone on another litter could get a puppy first.


Thank you, this is reaffirming my initial reaction. It would make sense to offer the remaining puppies unspoken for, and there were a couple left. Taking me completely off the list to wait for the other families to decide is just mind boggling to me.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Eclipse said:


> I would totally move on from this breeder. First of all, even if she/he has dogs in guardian homes, 3 litters in a short time frame like you are describing smacks of BYB/puppy mill. My breeder might have 2 litters in a year, sometimes only one. Secondly, when I work with her to get a puppy from a litter, it is a specific litter based on my research on the bitch and the stud, the particular litter. My deposit guarantees me a puppy from THAT litter. Even if by chance, my breeder was going to have another litter due shortly before or after the litter I had a deposit on and the dam of my litter didn't conceive, there is no way she would move deposits by date placed onto another litter and bump others out from it. I went through this same scenario with my younger dog. I had a deposit on the litter and the bitch didn't conceive. So I had to wait almost a year more than I had planned to get my second pup because I had to wait for the bitch to come back into heat (about 6 months or so) and then a bit over 4 months from the time she conceived for the pups to whelp and be ready to go home around at around 9 weeks....In the interim, my breeder did have another litter. But my deposit on the litter that didn't conceive didn't bump people off the list of those who had placed deposits on the later litter.....


Wow. Thank you for sharing (and everyone else commenting). This is good to hear how other breeders would handle the same situation.

I did assume I was placing my deposit on this specific litter. And the litter announcements on the website showed the number of deposits per litter. Now she’s funnelled the deposits into a giant master waitlist.

I am starting to think I should just request my deposit back and start my breeder search over again


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Whoiscoconut said:


> I personally would get the money refunded. I find it irresponsible to take someone who was set for one litter and move them to another.


Same here. If the breeder is willing to go backsies on this, what else are they willing to go back on? Health guarantees, or taking the dog back?


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Sadie09 said:


> Now she’s funnelled the deposits into a giant master waitlist.
> 
> I am starting to think I should just request my deposit back and start my breeder search over again


I wouldn't be happy with that. Considering the price people pay for poodles from reputable breeders, when you put a deposit down, you should know which parents are being bred. This can't be guaranteed for a future litter. If it were me, I would ask for my deposit back.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

"Secondly, when I work with her to get a puppy from a litter, it is a specific litter based on my research on the bitch and the stud, the particular litter. My deposit guarantees me a puppy from THAT litter."

I agree with this. You should get the sire and dam that YOU choose. 

"I would totally move on from this breeder. First of all, even if she/he has dogs in guardian homes, 3 litters in a short time frame like you are describing smacks of BYB/puppy mill."

I couldn't disagree with this more. 

You people who criticize a breeder without knowing their operation are the ultimate gasbags. Your, by necessity, ignorant opinion shows me exactly where your mind is at... stuck firmly with the Luddites who hate change. 

Y'all keep criticizing something you don't understand. 

I'm aiming this comment at the three who went immediately to the too-many -litters theory. Without knowing THE FIRST THING about the breeder.


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## Poodlemana (Sep 14, 2013)

I feel you are out of line, Countryboy. Sadie09 asked for our opinions. I simply asked if she had researched the breeder thoroughly because it was a red flag. She indicated that she had looked into this breeder and wasn't concerned about her reputation. Good! There is nothing wrong with suggesting someone do their research before making such an important decision. I don't know why you felt it necessary to call people names for suggesting she do what everyone interested in purchasing a puppy from an unknown breeder should do. Many litters, close together, is a red flag. It doesn't mean the breeder is bad. It means take a look to see what is going on. It is up to each person to do the research and decide for themselves. By the way, I am a Breeder of Merit with AKC, and on the Honor Roll of Breeders for Poodle Club of America, so I am not criticizing something I don't understand.


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## Poodlemana (Sep 14, 2013)

PS: I am not trying to start a fight. I simply don't like being accused unjustly. Please do not respond unless you can be civil.


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## Poodlemana (Sep 14, 2013)

PPS: The breeder's name was never mentioned so nobody is being slandered in any way.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Well. This thread has taken a detour. The original question was about a breeder taking a deposit and then failing to honor the reservation due to circumstances with other litters. Somehow it has morphed into a condemnation of high volume breeding. 

Breeding discussions often get heated. Out of respect for your moderators, who would like to enjoy our holiday weekend with our poodles and families, please try to keep this thread on target and courteous.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Thank you for your thoughts everyone - lots of valid points raised. My last poodle was a rescue, so this was my first time putting a deposit on a litter. And yes, I didn’t want to slander this breeder. Just get some opinions on her policy, as it seemed so illogical to me (and very upsetting).

In the end, the breeder said I could still get a puppy from the litter but I was bumped far down the list. I decided to just cut ties and get my deposit back.

I will resume my search for a puppy! Thanks again


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Sadie09- that's too bad. I wish you luck in finding a puppy! (And hope for lots of puppy pictures when you do )


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Good luck, Sadie! I hope you'll keep us posted on your puppy journey. I've got my fingers crossed you find a good match soon.


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## Poodlemana (Sep 14, 2013)

Good luck, Sadie. You are doing everything right and you will end up with a wonderful companion. It is worth the wait Sorry for my role in hijacking your discussion.


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## Sadie09 (Jul 3, 2020)

Poodlemana said:


> Good luck, Sadie. You are doing everything right and you will end up with a wonderful companion. It is worth the wait Sorry for my role in hijacking your discussion.


No worries 😉 Thanks so much!


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> "Secondly, when I work with her to get a puppy from a litter, it is a specific litter based on my research on the bitch and the stud, the particular litter. My deposit guarantees me a puppy from THAT litter."
> 
> I agree with this. You should get the sire and dam that YOU choose.
> 
> ...


CountryBoy, you are absolutely entitled to your opinion as are those of us who don't agree with high volume breeders and breeding. And you can think it is an ignorant opinion if you want, that is your right. But resorting to name-calling to try and make your point makes you no better than an old gasbag yourself. Welcome to the group you lumped us in with. Cheers!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Closing this thread. The original poster has received her answer and has responded with class, tact, and good manners. Further discussion is heading into the swamp.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

There's a cross-pollination of this thread with another one written five days ago. I wrote a detailed response to this and the related thread, which members can see here.


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