# What would you do to fix this groom?



## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

Pie was growing out of my attempt at the German trim (messed THAT one up by clipping all the hair on her ears). I'd like to try growing out her TK so I can band it. I don't expect it to look like a show trim, just a pretty banded TK. Since she needs to grow hair on the back of her neck, I thought I'd try a modified CC type trim, albeit a very short one since I'd recently cut her hair short. 

As you can see, I'm not a professional groomer. I'm a pet owner that's learning to groom. I've attached pictures for comments. What would you do with this?

I forgot to say that I goofed (seems to be a trend, lol) and used a #15 blade on her and had to trim her very short. Is this too short to use all over (sun exposure)? Should I just let the whole thing grow for a while? It's so darned hot and humid I'd rather have less hair on her if it'll help.

I also don't know how late into the summer I should keep trimming it before letting it grow out for the winter.

Critiques are very welcome!

Thanks in advance.
Lynn


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## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

I meant to say that I'm having trouble beveling, doing poms and balancing things. It seems like I can see mistakes easier in the pictures, maybe because they aren't moving. I can see that her poms (bracelets?) aren't all the same size. I don't know if they go too high up on her legs (but I like them big). 

Oh, should I keep trimming her TK until her ears catch up in length?

Thanks again.
Lynn


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## ambitious groomer (Mar 21, 2011)

*may help a little*

I am a groomer but have a heck of a time talking clients into much besides a blended lamb and a few miamis. I did take a class on poodles at the groom show in denver in june. The way it was shown was ,generally, the jacket ends at the end of the last rib and the bracelets start on the back leg at the hock, then the front ones are just the same height as the back. Hope that helps some. I'm sure some of our show people will have better info on jacket placement for you. The 15 is short enough to burn with a lot of sun exposure but for show they go lots shorter. So just keep an eye out and I'm sure it'll be fine.


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## ambitious groomer (Mar 21, 2011)

*should have added*

Bracelets start just above the back hock. Check out show pics. I know you may not want a show cut but it'll really help you visualize jacket and bracelet placement. Also, kudos on learning to groom your own dog! It looks great. Keep practicing and you can do anything. Even groomers have to start somewhere


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hi Skinnydoggz I just wanted to say you are doing a fantastic job...for a pet owner that is learning to groom....I think the fact that you are trying to groom such an ambitious trim is laudable.

I, too have a hard time making my bracelets look circular rather then cylindrical. Honest I think you just have to picture in your mind's eye the shape you want and then hope it translates to you scissoring hand. I have been advised, time and time again, that it requires a certain artistic ability and that some will never master fully artful grooming. I keep plugging along and sometimes I think to myself...okay okay I definitely do not have the artistic ability. But the next time I groom...presto it seems I mastered how to do something.

I also am like you, in that, on the grooming table I step back and think...AH HAH I have finally mastered (ex...topknots). Then that very night I am out walking the spoos and I look at the topknot I thought was great and I see every darn flaw (too square, looks like a brain box etc. etc.)

Don't give up...I think you are doing a bang up job.


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## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

Thanks, AmbitiousGroomer and Truelovepoodles. I'm pretty darn sure I do not have a natural talent for grooming but hope experience will get me good enough. I do think she'd look good (or silly) to someone who doesn't know a thing about grooming, and that will have to do for now. Her hair is so darn fine. The hair in bracelet area never stands up. It's the first place to lay flat. I really hope her adult coat will have a little umph to it. I also have trouble fluff drying. I know how because I prepped dogs at PetCo for 3 months. Actually I mostly bathed but the manager thought I was good enough at fluff drying that she wished she could hire me to do it for all her dogs. I don't know if it's Pie's coat, the fact that she wiggles a lot or because I don't have a powerful stand dryer, but I can't get her coat real straight. I guess it doesn't matter too much because I also love the curly look, but a straight coat will make my scissoring a bit better. I'm using a Chris Christenson(sp?) dryer. I forget the name of it & don't have time to pull it out of my closet to check. I also got the arm that holds the hose but it's cumbersome to keep re positioning it so I usually end up holding it. Maybe I should give it another try. I also need to get back to 'air scissoring'.

Maybe if I shorten the bracelets as you both suggested, they'll look a little rounder. I just keep telling myself, "At least she's clean and mat free!".

Would you keep trimming the TK until the ears catch up in length? I'm guessing I should trim it without the line of demarkation above the ear (rounded over the ears).

Thank you for your suggestions and comments. I truly appreciate all the help I can get. Well, I'd better sign off. I have to babysit my grandsons today. I'll sleep well tonight!

Take care, and thanks ever so much.
Lynn
Pie, Oprah (Afghan) & Yowza (whippet)


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

I think she looks GREAT!!! I don't think a 15 is too short - Vinnie's rear gets shaved with a 40. :lol:

Personally (and I am NOT a groomer!!), if you want to band her TK, I would just let it keep growing. Those ears will catch up while you are playing around with her TK hair.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

ambitious groomer said:


> Bracelets start just above the back hock. Check out show pics. I know you may not want a show cut but it'll really help you visualize jacket and bracelet placement. Also, kudos on learning to groom your own dog! It looks great. Keep practicing and you can do anything. Even groomers have to start somewhere


 My manager taught me to line the joint in my thumb up with the poodle's joint, then clip down to where the end of your thumb is. On standards, leave it just a little higher than the end of your thumb. (Of course, she didn't tell me that until I'd already gone a bit too low. Oh well!) This trick works great and makes all of your bracelets even. 

I've never put a poodle into a continental, but to me the jacket line looks too far back. Just something to consider.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I love the ears, but then again I love short ears. The TK just let it grow & band when needed. I have been growing my boy Leif's TK now for 7 months & it still does not need to be banded. Granted it is just now getting into his eyes & yeah! he gets groomed this weekend in competition. But I think TK's take time to grow as well. Isn't your dog still a bit of a youngster? I think adult coat might add some texture. I have a 7 month old Mini & her coat is still pretty floppy & not really, really dense. I can't wait for adult coat. 
I too have a CC dryer the Mini/Pup one & love it. It has great power & I love the variable speed to it that my 2 other dryers don't have. It fluffs my Poodles just fine.
I think the Jacket placement is just fine. You can tweek it but it does go beyond the last rib. The leg's just need some growth on them to get a more oblong look to them. You are doing a great job.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Placement of the pattern looks pretty good to me. The end of the jacket could possibly come forward about an inch, though with more length on the coat it might look fine. The bracelets could probably come up slightly as well, between a half inch to one inch on the forelegs, the back bracelets look okay (generally you can center the line right in the middle of that hollow part of the hock).

I think it looks a little funny mostly because the jacket and bracelets are a little too short at the moment. The funny thing about the many "lion" patterned cuts is that the extremity between the shaved and not shaved parts is sort of what balances it out. In HCC, Spoos look pretty nice if the jacket is about 2 - 3 inches long and you'll need little more than that on the topknot. And even if you don't band the topknot, it looks nice with a scissored top as well.

And on the back end, a #15 is okay, just keep an eye on it for a week or so in the sun. It grows back fast!


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## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

AgilityIG, I tried the German trim on Pie because Vinnie looks so sharp, but I thought she looked too boyish and lost too much of her puppy look. Though she's not a true Kleinpudel, I think she'll be the size of one. She's 8 mos. old now and only 25 lbs, a little peanut. 

Mom24doggies, thanks for that great tip. I should probably go lower since she's so petite for a spoo. 

3dogs, 7 months, I had no idea it can take that long. By any chance is your dog in the grooming competition in Rhode Island? I was thinking about going and wondered when the poodles part of it is (Sat.? Sun.?). That is IF they break it down like that. It's the CC Kool Dry dryer that I have. Maybe her hair will straighten better when she stays still for me. I'm trying to not be rough on her. She HATES when I work on any part of her head and struggles against it, so I never get it straightened. Maybe with time she won't be as frightened. I take the nozzle off and lower the power while doing her head. I also got one of those stretchy terrycloth tubes that cover the ears and cuts down on the sound. It helps. I think the Kalstone poodle book said to go 1/2 -1" beyond the last rib. Maybe I'll take a little more off since she's petite. Like you, I hope she gets a more dense adult coat.

Lavillerose, I can see that the front bracelets are shorter. It's so much easier to see from a distance than when I'm next to her. Your tip about centering the line right in the middle of the hollow part of the hock is great. It's easy to envision. I actually just heard of the HCC for the first time yesterday. I'm not quite sure what it is but am guessing it's like a CC but with less length. I'll google it.

I am totally enamored with this breed and can't imagine not having one in my life. The fun of their versatile coat is just icing on the cake. I love this little girl so much it's almost painful. She's a loving, silly, clever little spitfire and a ray of light.

You are all a ray of light too! Thank you for taking the time out of your busy day to help someone you barely know. You're all so wonderful and generous. THANK YOU!!!!

Lynn


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Yep, the "Historically Correct Continental"... to be honest, I don't know how "historically" correct it is. But yes, the point is to have the same pattern but with significantly less length (optional butt rosettes), primarily on that big mane we spend so much time growing!

I'll show you the difference when I put my dog into both the show length Continental and HCC. My mini isn't a show dog, but I am a professional groomer. But just being pro doesn't mean we ever get practice doing the fancy stuff! I haven't done this pattern more than a few times ever, so I'm no expert either, I'm sure the show people could nitpick my work.

The first is the full, long Continental. She had easily 7 inches along the top part of the mane, blended down to about 3 inches on the bottom part. Look at the crazy fro! That's without the bands in.

On the second, HCC, I cut the whole mane down to about 1 inch on the bottom part and 2 on the top, with the topknot scissored a bit longer (I like a big topknots!) I took A LOT off in one go. My dog is a mini though. On a Spoo, they look better with a few more inches of mane to balance it out.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

I think you did a fabulous job for a non groomer!

From a show perspective the pack does usually end at the last rib, however it does vary according to the length of the dog, so as to give the illusion of a square dog. From your pictures I'd move it up a bit.

TK, I have standard and within a month it's usually long enough to start banding. Puppies grow TK slower and if you don't change the elastics every second day they can break the coat and then it takes longer for the front to grow. The elastics have to be cut out carefully so as to not break coat, or cut coat too. I'd just let it grow, keep it clean and brush regularly as this helps with coat growth. Ears can take awhile, it differs from dog to dog. Watch for her chewing on the fronts when they grow in though, LOL. I've lost chunks of coat that way!

For bracelets, show dogs have higher bracelets in front than in back, but for a shorter pet trim, I'd leave them at the same height until you get more body coat, it's easy to grow the top part in when/if you want it later. As was said before the easiest way to measure height is using the hocks height. A trick to getting a more rounded look in the bracelets is to comb all the hair down towards the foot, trim straight around the shave line with scissors, this will give a nice line at the bottom of the foot, then (if you have curved scissors it's easier) trim a beveled edge where the longer coat meets the part you just scissored. Do the same at the top of the bracelet, comb all the hair straight up, scissor all excess length from the shave line up. This gives you the beginning of the round shape. LOL, I know it's hard to understand by reading it.

For blow drying, the biggest mistake people make with poodles is blow drying an almost dry coat. To get it really straight, the coat has to be fairly wet still. I use a damp towel to keep parts from drying too fast while I do the rest of the dog, and I have a spray bottle with water that I use to spritz coat that has gotten too dry.

I love the fact that you want her in this clip!! :clap:


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

well if it helps at all, here is a progression going from a german into a full long-ears & banded topknot look done on Paris:
Aug 2009; a full german trim; ears are shaved with a 10 blade.

















November 2009 (yes, she grew a moustache for "mo-vember", but I shaved it off again in dec!)








note that she's having her topknot banded here; after 3 months growth from the scissored topknot it was before

December 2009; after a blow dry to show the length she's getting:









and same time, banded up:









Jan 2010 (5 months growth, with no trimming, from the scissored topknot & shaved ears)









March 2010; 7 months growth










Now, in April I scissored her topknot again cos I was trying something new; I still had the front banded, but scissored it... didn't work so great, but ya live and learn! lol Basically while it *is* scissored again, it's much huger than it was previously, so doesn't take as long to grow back out thankfully!








Note though, that her ears are untouched still.

June 2010; this is about the time I started having to do a second band behind the first; for obvious reasons (one band wasn't really holding it back from her eyes!!!)









August 2010; a FULL YEAR of growth on her ears now! And her topknot is coming back into shape from that April disaster... lol


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Oct 2010, just to show her freshly-fluffed version with no bands in! lol

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with bands back in:









Jan 2011; 17 months growth in her ears (I've *tipped* them, but only to smooth broken ends; you can see the thickness at the top that the length hasn't actually grown right down yet!)









That's about the last photo I have of her with a tied up topknot though, as in March I cut it down into a modern. Though I kept her ears growing out until just the end of last month (June)

March 2011; scissored topknot but 19 months on her ears









and Finally, June 2011, with getting closer to 2 years growth on her ears (those top bits are SLOWLY getting closer to the bottom... You can still see that they have a few inches to go though as they still have a 'layered' look!)









and now she's in tassels and a mohawk; here endith the growing-out!!! lol!


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Wow, Flyingduster, thanks for sharing those pictures, what a great series!


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Note that both times I grew her topknot out, from having those scissored defined edges above the ears out into poof, I didn't ever trim it... I just let it grow as it wanted, kept the front banded up, and let both the ears and topknot grow into each other! So basically if you want to grow it out, just let it grow out! Don't worry about trimming the topknot into the ears, just let it grow out as long as you want.  

The ears obviously take a looooong time to grow, but Paris has *thick* ears too; ears with thinner/limper hair will look long MUCH faster than her poof...

In example, here is Saffy in December 2009









and again in March 2010; only three months growth









and of course different hair grows at different rates too!! lol.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Up, I'm off to RI for the grooming comp. Went off Cape this morning for a competitors meeting & then Saturday A.m. are the Terriers, Sat. Afternoon are the Mixe/Other- I will have my Mini Pup in a Japanese but she has holes in her legs from about 8 wks ago & they are now just starting to have hair but not what I need to win. Will be a GREAT experience for the youngster. Creative is Saturday evening. Poodles are at 7:30 a.m. Sunday

Would love to see you out there. You can see my Rescue Leif & he has 7 moths of coat growth on him & still no banding in his TK.


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## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

3dogs, it's too bad you won't get credit for disguising the gaps in her coat. It would be nice to still have a chance at winning/being recognized. I just emailed my friend because I offered to help her install a gutter on her house this weekend. I need to find out which day I'll be available. What size and color is Leif so I can look out for you? Thanks for sending me the information. Are you from Cape Cod? I live on the Upper Cape. 

I'm hoping I can find some mini clippers there. I'm having trouble find a pair that has a small blade that cuts around a #10 length. Most of them have a #30 blade or the blade is wider than what I'm looking for. Being new to grooming, I want something little so I can clip the toes better but I don't want to use a #30 on the paws. Price is also a consideration. Got to stick to my stinkin' budget.

FlyingDuster, thanks you! That's exactly what I needed to know. In the 1st picture, Saffy is looking a bit green about the gills, lol. Really though, she's beautiful! That's a lot of hair growth, especially on her ears! I think I've missed some responses and will now check and see. 

Thanks!


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## skinnydoggz (Jan 9, 2011)

FlyingDuster, I just saw the your previous posts with the series of pictures. It's obvious that you have great fun changing out the styles. I guess that's one of the wonderful things about this breed. I love the pink (purple?) dye. It's really pretty. It makes me wish I could color some of Pie's brown hair, lol. You do SUCH and awesome job grooming! Paris's pictures get the gears in my head turning about all the different things I can try. I think I'll have to see what her adult coat is like to know what I should even try. I don't have enough knowledge yet to hazard a guess about that. Or maybe you can't really tell until it comes in. The mohawk picture cracked me up. You sure know how to have fun with your grooming. I recently saw a pic of a spoo with just the TK & tail corded & it was also fun looking. I wish I could have another spoo so I could try more stuff w/less waiting in between but I have 3 dogs now and that's the most I can take care of properly.

I should post a picture of what I did to my poor Afghan hound. It was HOT out & she had about 5" of thick hair. I decided to use her to practice my scissoring. I clipped her down completely after a couple of weeks. 










I hope I didn't miss responding to or thanking anyone. You are all the BEST!

Lynn


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