# Growing out a topknot: advice please!



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I've decided to put my poodle into a puppy trim...or something like that. So I've started growing out his TK/neck hair. It's not very long yet, but I want to get some tips and advice before things start getting...eh, hairy. (Sorry, couldn't resist. ) Stuff like when should I start banding? Can I continue to use the fluffing end on my HV dryer to dry the really long hair or should I switch to a fluff dryer at some point? Do I need a pin brush, or is a slicker and comb going to be OK? Anything special I need to do as far as shampooing/conditioning? And any other advice you think I might need.  This is just an experiment, so if worst comes to worst I'll just cut it all back down and start over.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I'm glad you started this thread as I'm growing mine out from the Miami to a Scandi for the winter.  I love big topknots anyway, and love the banded look.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Ok If you want looong hair give up the slicker, pin brush and comb only.
Start banding as soon as you can put it up in little horns and get ready for months of short straggly bits that aren't quite long enough to go in.
Shampooing you don't really need to do anything special until it gets long, then you just have to learn to squeeze the shampoo through rather then scrubbing (as that tangle the hair)
drying's all about technique rather than eqipment you'll be ok with a hv just keep it on low when you're doing the head.
And finally I hope you like playing with hair, long tks are lovely and very versatile. 
Good luck.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Anntig said:


> Ok If you want looong hair give up the slicker, pin brush and comb only.
> Start banding as soon as you can put it up in little horns and get ready for months of short straggly bits that aren't quite long enough to go in.
> Shampooing you don't really need to do anything special until it gets long, then you just have to learn to squeeze the shampoo through rather then scrubbing (as that tangle the hair)
> drying's all about technique rather than eqipment you'll be ok with a hv just keep it on low when you're doing the head.
> ...


 Thanks, this helps a lot.  So what brand of pin brush do you recommend (that isn't like $100.  )? And yes, I love long hair...  My sisters don't let me play with theirs anymore, they got tired of it...Trev probably won't care too much! 

When you get your poodle into a Scandi, Rowan, you need to post some pics!! I would love to see it.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I bought a black All Systems #1 pin brush at a dog show for $18 bucks, $25 on most websites and they charge shipping. If you have any local dog shows soonish, you'll find great grooming supplies for cheaper than online prices.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

You have to baby the hair in order to grow it really long. Everything is in attempt to keep it from breaking. Bathe regularly; dirty hair breaks easier. Use a good conditioner when you wash to keep the hair from getting brittle, and a coat spray during brushing to keep down static, and be careful as you brush and comb, line brushing every section. In pet trims, we aren't all that careful about tugging out tangles and the hair that breaks from that (it inevitably gets scissored off anyway), but with a show topknot, breakage is the enemy. If you hit tangles (and you will), you have go through and gently break them up with your fingers and the tip of your comb.

They always tend to mat on the neck behind the ears. And you need to keep a collar OFF, unless you're out walking. Collars always cause mats.

My mini is in a Bichon trim right now with 3" to 4" of a big poofy crest and topknot, and even that length, I have to brush out her head and neck every single day.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I bought a black All Systems #1 pin brush at a dog show for $18 bucks, $25 on most websites and they charge shipping. If you have any local dog shows soonish, you'll find great grooming supplies for cheaper than online prices.


 I have their small slicker brush, and I really like it. I'll look into that one, thanks.  

Thanks, lavillerose...I need all the advice I can get! So I'm assuming that wrestling with the other dogs is out too. And he already doesn't wear a collar, hardly ever. When I walk him I use a narrow (like between 1/2" and 1/4"...maybe around 3/8"?) nylon leash and just make a loop in the end. I'm planning on getting something smaller though. Any suggestions for that?


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> Thanks, this helps a lot.  So what brand of pin brush do you recommend (that isn't like $100.  )


I have a Chris Christensen #027G 27 mm Gold Series Pin Brush that is virtually brand new -- Beau's hair is simply too short for it to be of use, and we like it that way. No Scandis here! It's $34 on their site. I'd like to get $20 for it, and that's including USPS shipping. PM me if you're interested.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

> So I'm assuming that wrestling with the other dogs is out too. And he already doesn't wear a collar, hardly ever. When I walk him I use a narrow (like between 1/2" and 1/4"...maybe around 3/8"?) nylon leash and just make a loop in the end. I'm planning on getting something smaller though. Any suggestions for that?


Oh, I don't know, there are plenty of "coat" people who let their dogs wrestle, swim, hike and generally be dogs, but you just have to factor your coat routine into their playtime. It takes dedication, really. If the dogs play rough, you're going to need to brush and reband afterward. If they swim, you have to bathe them (dirty water such as ponds and creeks are full of minerals that cause hair to get brittle). You can't really wait on it too long. Show people spend hours and hours prepping for a show, bathing, drying, chalking, putting all kinds of product and hairpray in the hair to get the look, but as soon as the show's over, they have to start over and wash all that stuff out, dry and then band all over again.

As for leads, most show people go for a soft satin type slip lead (round, as edges on the flat nylon can cut the coat!), or else there are custom-made coat saver collars lined with satin that are kind of big and bulky. If he's just a pet, I wouldn't worry about it too much, just be sure you check for matting after you walk.

Is he a puppy, and if so, have you gone through coat change yet? If you want to grow coat through that, more power to you. It's A LOT of work. It's a lot easier if you can wait until they're through the magically reappearing mats stage.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> I have a *Chris Christensen #027G 27 mm Gold Series Pin Brush *that is virtually brand new -- Beau's hair is simply too short for it to be of use, and we like it that way. No Scandis here! It's $34 on their site. I'd like to get $20 for it, and that's including USPS shipping. PM me if you're interested.


These are great brushes--I have the 35mm CC Gold Series Pin Brush, and it's the only brush I use on longer hair. (That and the CC Poodle Buttercomb!)


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

When conditioning the coat, I typically use a diluted conditioner, put a small amount in my hand and run water through it and onto the coat (this is how I'm used to conditioning double coated dogs). If you're growing coat should you use a heavier conditioner? I've been bathing every week to 10 days, groom out with linebrushing every day. He is still in puppy coat.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lavillerose said:


> *Oh, I don't know, there are plenty of "coat" people who let their dogs wrestle, swim, hike and generally be dogs, but you just have to factor your coat routine into their playtime. It takes dedication, really. If the dogs play rough, you're going to need to brush and reband afterward.* If they swim, you have to bathe them (dirty water such as ponds and creeks are full of minerals that cause hair to get brittle). You can't really wait on it too long. Show people spend hours and hours prepping for a show, bathing, drying, chalking, putting all kinds of product and hairpray in the hair to get the look, but as soon as the show's over, they have to start over and wash all that stuff out, dry and then band all over again.
> 
> As for leads, most show people go for a soft satin type slip lead (round, as edges on the flat nylon can cut the coat!), or else there are custom-made coat saver collars lined with satin that are kind of big and bulky. If he's just a pet, I wouldn't worry about it too much, just be sure you check for matting after you walk.
> 
> Is he a puppy, and if so, have you gone through coat change yet? If you want to grow coat through that, more power to you. It's A LOT of work. It's a lot easier if you can wait until they're through the magically reappearing mats stage.


Though, I have to disagree. With show coat, you really cannot let them play rough at _*ALL*_. Doing will guarantees that chunks of hair will be ripped off. I have turned my back for a second and found Millie with a mouthful of white hair. Millie and Tiger really just aren't allowed to play together, unless they are playing tug of war with a toy.

Now, this just doesn't matter for the OP. Unless the OP is trying to grow show coat, even a long coat can be grown without worrying too much about all of these little things. I grew a good amount of neck hair on Millie without babying her coat at all. I used a slicker, she played rough (neck hair bitten), she wore regular collars on walks, etc. Though, no wide collars as these did cause matting. :scared: I'd use a thin, rolled leather collar if possible. 

No need to make things harder than they are. Until you have about 8 inches or so of hair, you don't need to take any special precautions, esp. with a pet. The coat does not have to be perfect and pristine as most people won't notice the difference if a few end are snagged, etc. 

I am growing Millie's coat back out into a CC, and honestly, I wouldn't even think about worrying about being careful as to protect the coat until at least 6 or 8 inches of hair are present. My handler even told me I could use a slicker gently on Tiger's neck hair up until he was about 10 months old (and thus had much longer, easier to damage hair).

Basically, just let it grow. Don't touch it except to brush it as necessary. When it gets to be several inches long, I'd start only using a pin brush. It's really pretty simple, especially if you are already out of coat change and not trying to save every single milimeter of hair. In the show ring, just the tiniest bit makes a difference. But as a pet, long hair is long hair.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I treated Millie's coat pretty darn rough compared to how I take care of Tiger's show coat. And look how much hair we got? And this is even with trims and right through coat change, so I did unintentionally thin her coat a bit with so much brushing of matts.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

That's why I differentiated coat people with show people. Quite a lot of us here like to grow big hair but don't show, so we aren't nearly as fussy about letting the dogs be dogs.  I do agree, if you're going to be showing, you better baby the hair to death, but it's not that big of a deal otherwise.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> I have a Chris Christensen #027G 27 mm Gold Series Pin Brush that is virtually brand new -- Beau's hair is simply too short for it to be of use, and we like it that way. No Scandis here! It's $34 on their site. I'd like to get $20 for it, and that's including USPS shipping. PM me if you're interested.


 I'll think about it...if I want it, it'll be next month sometime.  Thanks!

Thanks again everyone, some very useful stuff here. And no, we're not doing this for show, just for fun. I'll try not to worry about it too much. I'm a control freak when it comes to hair though...so I may have a hard time not worrying.  

And yes, as far as I can tell he's gone through his coat change....he may have a little farther to go on his legs, but his topknot/neck/back are all finished. Amazingly though, he never matted up once...and I had quite a bit of hair on him there for a while.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Gave Trev a bath today and decided to give the little "horns" a shot! Everyone is now telling him he looks like he has 4 eyes. Poor guy...


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## dawns (Jun 29, 2010)

i think it's adorable


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Though, I have to disagree. With show coat, you really cannot let them play rough at _*ALL*_. Doing will guarantees that chunks of hair will be ripped off. I have turned my back for a second and found Millie with a mouthful of white hair. Millie and Tiger really just aren't allowed to play together, unless they are playing tug of war with a toy.
> 
> Now, this just doesn't matter for the OP. Unless the OP is trying to grow show coat, even a long coat can be grown without worrying too much about all of these little things. I grew a good amount of neck hair on Millie without babying her coat at all. I used a slicker, she played rough (neck hair bitten), she wore regular collars on walks, etc. Though, no wide collars as these did cause matting. :scared: I'd use a thin, rolled leather collar if possible.
> 
> ...


Sorry...I have to disagree with you CM. Quincy was allowed to do as he pleased as far as playing with the other dogs, and his coat was remarkable. You just need to keep your eyes and ears on things so they do not get totally out of hand. Dog first- show dog second.

I never used a pin brush. I used a Universal Slicker. It is all in the action. If you rip and tear at the coat, it is going to break. If you use only a light touch, you will be fine. My brush is $3 on the Petedge web site. 

CM is right though. If you are not showing, long hair is long hair....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Sorry...I have to disagree with you CM. Quincy was allowed to do as he pleased as far as playing with the other dogs, and his coat was remarkable. You just need to keep your eyes and ears on things so they do not get totally out of hand. Dog first- show dog second.
> 
> I never used a pin brush. I used a Universal Slicker. It is all in the action. If you rip and tear at the coat, it is going to break. If you use only a light touch, you will be fine. My brush is $3 on the Petedge web site.
> 
> CM is right though. If you are not showing, long hair is long hair....


In the show ring, you can tell a difference between the dogs who have been living with a handler and growing impeccable coat and those who have been playing roughly with other dogs at home, getting chunks of neck hair ripped out. I physically see this difference at shows. Often, the coat is just thinner from brushing using the wrong tools or overbrushing.

Quincy did have nice coat, yes, but I can guarantee that if he had other dogs ripping his coat out, he did not have the coat that he could have had. Perhaps his playmates were more gentle than most. 

I agree, there is a fine balance with show dogs. You must protect their coat yet you want them to be dogs. In my opinion, IF you want them to have OUTSTANDING coat, they simply cannot play with other dogs unless they are playing tug of war or chasing without biting neck hair. The neck hair must be protected. It is so easy for a dog to rip chunks of hair out. If someone's dogs play without doing this...well...I am jealous!

Now, you can decide that you are willing to sacrifice having impeccable coat and let them roughhouse and let other dogs rip their hair out, but that decision will show in the ring. 

Same goes for using a slicker on neck hair. :scared:
I'm too competitive for that.


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