# Millie has been home for 9 days and we have problems!



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh no! How long ago was the vet appointment?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

So sorry this happened--awful!! I would bet it's the vax  I would get a consultation with Dr. Jean Dodds or a good holistic vet to see what kind of detox you could do.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Have you talked to your vet?


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Please write down all the details you can and keep daily, detailed records.

Full agreement with @MaizieFrosty here. Get Dr. Dodds on the phone asap.

I would immediately contact the vet office in writing to require brands, full product names, expiration dates, and lot numbers of every single vaccine she was given.

This is a good warning for people. Especially during Covid, taking pets to "the back" to perform services or not even letting us into exam rooms at all, while initially for safety, may have gotten awfully darn convenient for vet hospitals.

You are likely going to want a new vet practice altogether. Interview several for their vaccination protocols; they vary widely here in my town.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

If it’s the vaccinations that did this, I am furious on Millie’s and your behalf. I am so sorry.  Please do consult with another veterinarian, or even a veterinary behaviourist.

As far as this goes...


daabor said:


> I had always been able to take carpet fuzz/sticks/treats from her mouth.


You have a little girl who is figuring out her place in the world. If she is insecure, she is going to fight like heck to protect her resources. Don’t put her in that position and force her to rehearse this behaviour. Now is the time to teach her that human hands approaching means _good_ things are coming. 

Have you read Ian Dunbar’s _Before and After Getting Your Puppy_? If not, you can download it free online, order it from Amazon, or get it from your local library. I would do so urgently. That plus the veterinary consult plus the help of your trained (certified, I hope?) will give you some clarity on how to proceed.

I will be hoping for a positive update.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Here is Dr. Dunbar’s perspective on tissues, which always stuck with me:

_Years ago, I consulted on a case of a one-year-old dog that stole used Kleenex tissues and irritated her owner by playing Catch- Me-if-You-Can. The dog ran under a bed, the owner poked her with a broomstick, and the dog bit her on the wrist. I have since dealt with many similar cases. For paper-tissue theft to escalate to the point of both owner and dog physically abusing each other is extremely silly. If you don't want your dog to steal paper tissues, flush them down the toilet. On the other hand, if the dog finds paper tissues intriguing, use them as lures and rewards in training, or give the dog one a day as a toy. It is essential that you teach your young puppy to exchange rolled newspaper, toilet rolls, or individual paper tissues for food treats so that she does not becomes possessive and protective of paper products._

I’m re-reading what you wrote and thinking more about this... Is it possible Millie is in pain? Can you feel any swelling at the injection sites? That vet appointment sounds like a lot for a tiny girl. I’m heartsick.  Was she happy and easygoing in the vet’s office? Did they scare her or have to excessively restrain her?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I immediately thought pain too - that number of jabs all at once into such a tiny puppy... The reactiveness sounds too immediate to be simply coincidence. I would get in touch with your usual vet, one you trust, to get a very gentle check up and perhaps some pain relief, and meanwhile avoid putting Millie in any position where she feels she has to fight her corner. Lots of games of swapping something boring for something good, lots of rounds of the Drop game (This is a good video 



), if the harness hurts then just a collar for a while - or make a little soft harness out of knitted fabric. I am so sorry you are going through this anxiety when all seemed so happy.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

daabor said:


> her stand-in gave Millie 5 different shots, immunized her for everything imaginable, including rabies ( at 12 weeks ), without our consent


Speak to the owner of the clinic as well as your trusted vet. I can't imagine how this vet could give five different shots, even if including non-core, to a pup of that age. Was one a combo vaccine? 
They surely had a history listing the vaccines already done so why?


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

My immediate thought is pain. Can you have her checked out?

I read about a small dog that got a needle stuck in his jaw that no one could see. He became fierce with pain and no one knew why. I once had a cracked tooth that the dentist couldn't see that made fierce too!


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

Vet ASAP. Call your regular one if you trust them or find a new one. Meanwhile get the list of all of the vaccines that were given. It sounds like this is related to pain and she could use a check up. Good luck!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm sorry to hear you are having such difficulties.
Take a deep breath! A random assortment of thoughts:
I would strongly advise you to consider the words you are using to describe Millie. Inadvertently we can label our puppies, and this can affect how we perceive them and their behavior, and how we think about dealing with them.
99% of the time puppies that are biting are not aggressive, they are defensive- or more precisely, acting defensively. 
With that word change we start thinking, why is she acting defensively? There must be something she fears.
What is she fearing?
In the one instance, she was afraid of your son putting on the harness. Why? Could be that he put the harness on her while she was sore from vaccines (we know poodles excel at single-event learning). Could be that the harness in general was uncomfortable after her vaccines and that she has less trust in him than you (adult men are naturally more intimidating for dogs to start with). She doesn't need to be still in pain for her to have made a negative connection and react accordingly.
In the other example, she was afraid that your son was taking a resource away from her (and she was right!). By your own description, you have already been taking resources away from her so she is justified in her suspicions. Add to that, if she is already a bit leery of him the reaction will be greater. Were you present when your son tried to remove the items? If you look from a wee puppy's perspective, isn't it likely that she might have been scared as well? A man looking over and/or reaching out quickly, for example, could be terrifying. 
Better by far to toss a treat or toy close to her on the ground to get her to drop the item.
If you haven't read it already, Jean Donaldson's book Mine! is an excellent resource on preventing and dealing with resource guarding.

You've had her for 9 days. 9!! Barely any time at all. Not long enough to say "she always..." or "she normally... " or to make characterizations. Don't forget, she needs time to settle in to a new house. I remember Raffi was very shut down when he first came home. I thought I had a quiet, cuddly, calm dog with no food motivation. It took a week before he started giving true reactions and a few weeks before he started eating properly.

Take heart, many times it's those pups that are on the sensitive side that are therefore more likely to be reactive. These same pups can be super in tune with their people and be perfect for dog sports or other special training/ jobs. Maybe less natural for therapy work, depending on circumstance. 
I look at Robin's Peggy and my Raffi as examples of sensitive but amazing dogs.... I sometimes think Raffi can read my mind and he is very eager to please.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The overload of vaccinations most importantly rabies at 12 weeks of age is awful but hopefully Dr. Dodds or a holistic vet can get that straightened out. i also strongly recommend consulting a behaviorist (look for a good one at ccpdt.org). Don't give up on your future wishes for your puppy. I am sure you will be able to find professionals to help.

Making sure you have very complete records of all immunizations given, brands and lot numbers included sounds like a really good idea too. And maybe it is time to look for a new vet practice, unless you are sure your regular vet is really a keeper.

I am sorry you are going through this. Puppies are hard enough under ideal conditions. It is a shame to have problems that could have been avoided.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think a proper physical evaluation would be a good idea. Remember, correlation is not causation. Yes, this stuff started at around the same time as the vaccines. However, it's also possible something else is causing the problem. 

Remember I mentioned last year that Galen had a splinter embedded in the roof of his mouth? Because of his history of GI problems, I assumed his lack of appetite was due to another gut issue. Nope, wrong end of the dog. I am so glad I took him to the vet and got him properly evaluated. I might have lost him if I'd persisted in trying to force broth and probiotics down his throat.


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

I am not computer savvy, so will answer questions in order, without quoting. The vet appointment was last Wednesday, so 6 days ago. I did not know she had received all these vaccines until I reviewed the paperwork once home and I was livid. I thought the bill was quite high. I wasn't expecting her to receive ANY vaccines. We had actually made her next appointment for the 23rd, so I thought that was when she would receive her 3rd round of shots. Thinking about this now, I am wondering if they confused her with another dog that was "in back". I am not proud of how distressed/angry I was toward the girl that answered the phone. She put me on hold to discuss my concerns with the vet. I thought the vet would come to the phone! The girl came back on and told me the vet stated it is perfectly safe to give the rabies vaccine at 12 weeks. When asked why they gave her so many vaccines ( without my knowledge ), she said that Millie's previous vaccinations were not signed by a veterinarian. In the vaccination records her breeder gave me were the stickers from each vaccine received and date. It was from the veterinarian's office her breeder uses and had the practice name, address etc. prominently displayed on the front. 

I have a receipt of about 9 pages that details what vaccines she received. I do not know if lot numbers are included. She received a DHPP ( which she had just had a week ago ), rabies, bordetella, leptosprirosis and parainfluenza. She was also sent home with a pill for heartworm, fleas and ticks that I did not give her.

Millie does not seem to be insecure at all. Our first two days home were very low key. From the 3rd day on, we visited a pet store, with her in our arms, had lunch on a patio with several elderly and hilarious people, visited a friend, brought her to my school for an adult only meeting of 5, exposed her to different sights and sounds, went on daily walks in the neighborhood, which she seemed to really enjoy and I was so proud of how well she walked on leash. She showed no reactivity and I was very careful to watch her body language and make sure she wasn't over-whelmed 

From the ride home, I handled her paws, ran my fingers along her gums/teeth, handled every part of her body with no reaction. She loves it when i put a little toothpaste on my finger and massage her gums.

Immediately, I thought she could be in pain from the injection site, which I don't know where that is, but on running my hands over her several times daily, she didn't show any signs of discomfort and no swelling that i can find.

She is not food motivated, so "trade" hasn't worked yet. It may be due to us being a multi-pet family. Sammy steals my high priority (to him) things and play growls to trade me for a treat. The little piece of plastic Millie got was the sticker on the bottom of my blistex that Sammy stole. The tissue was a piece that had been washed and fell out of the dryer. 

I apologize for the length of this response! From what I'm observing, Millie is becoming more aggressive whenever she doesn't like something. I don't think it's under-confidence. More likely over-confidence! Today when I came home from work, my son was snuggling with her on the couch. She wanted to come see me and started growling/snapping at him. He was not restraining her, he just tried to pick her up and set her onto the ground.

Maybe it's just coincidence and she naturally has a challenging personality. I appreciate all of you SO MUCH for taking the time to share your insight, thoughts and knowledge.

I will not give up on her. Her breeder offered me a full refund because her ears fell a couple days before we brought her home. Of course, that is the last thing i'm concerned about.

There are wonderful things about her too. We are off to our first class. I am going early because my wonderful trainer wants some time to discuss my concerns.

Again, I want to thank each of you for your insight, concern and friendship. No-one else in my life cares about my dogs the way this on-line group does. 

On a good note, her aggressive behavior seems to be diminishing today...who knows if this will continue.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Dianaleez said:


> My immediate thought is pain. Can you have her checked out?
> 
> I read about a small dog that got a needle stuck in his jaw that no one could see. He became fierce with pain and no one knew why. I once had a cracked tooth that the dentist couldn't see that made fierce too!


A vet once left a thermometer in my parents’ dog’s bum!!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Starvt said:


> I'm sorry to hear you are having such difficulties.
> Take a deep breath! A random assortment of thoughts:
> I would strongly advise you to consider the words you are using to describe Millie. Inadvertently we can label our puppies, and this can affect how we perceive them and their behavior, and how we think about dealing with them.
> 99% of the time puppies that are biting are not aggressive, they are defensive- or more precisely, acting defensively.
> ...


I want to frame this post. Absolutely spot on.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Press the reset button. Consider Millie a sensitive puppy you just brought home and start over. Give her peace and time to settle and get to know you all over again. Slowly but surely does it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If pain is ruled out as the immediate cause I would be considering her sleep patterns. Freddy was a very easy puppy but he had his gremlin moments, always when he was overtired from too much stimulation and too long between sleeps. It is hard to manage with the constant stimulation of another young dog around but I would really work at getting her into a good routine involving lots of sleep and downtime - think 30 minutes awake to two hours asleep, plus at least 6-8 hours sleep at night. The first sign of fractiousness means a good chew toy in a quiet, comfy bed. Think back to your children's toddler tantrums - that is very much the stage Millie is at, when life can too easily become overwhelming and even ice cream get thrown on the floor!


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I hope things are getting better. I was thinking about you last night. Thomas, my oldest dog, is a toy poodle. He was a tiny puppy. I remember for the first month or so that he was home he would get so growly and angry. One minute I would have a sweet puppy and the next he was ready to eat my face off. Looking back on it I can't help but wonder if the smaller the puppy, the more vulnerable they feel. The world is a big and scary place for puppies in general but tiny ones more so. Thomas is a character. He has a larger than life personality. It could be that Ms. Millie will be the same way. There were times during his puppyhood that I didn't think I had it in me to go on but he has been my Number One Guy for 14 years and I can't imagine life without him. Hang in there.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Wow I wonder if you have another Poodle Klingon like my Louie - who is a Mini. I may have missed his but is your puppy a mini or toy? I cried so many nights with my unbelievably aggressive shark toothed maniac until we learned to co-exist. First of all I think you have an easily aroused puppy on your hands. So nothing loud and screamy interaction wise (or at least in super small dosages). Much longer down times and calm times - really work on chilling! That is my number one advice - use chewies (chicken feet were a life saver). Chewing releases calming endorphins. Same goes for socialization - I always thought the more exposure the better but with an overexcitable puppy that is actually very much not true. I have learned from others here on the forum to respect my dog's body (which as a mini and especially as a puppy) was so much smaller than the dogs I had had the last 20 years. Disrespect to his body caused quite intense reactions on his part. This was especially true for picking him up. WIth a large dog when you want him to go your way they have a say in it - but with my tiny 3 pound puppy it was just so tempting to swoop him up and he hated it! Now I have taught him "up" which means jump up when I lift you, which is something he can back out of if he is not comfortable..In general giving Louie more choices and an opportunity to co-operate and participate rather than be pushed to do things has made a world of difference. He will gladly do pretty much anything I want from him but you have to present it as his choice and even better his idea. He reacts very dramatically to being overpowered. Btw taking things out of his mouth is very hard still - although he has learned solidly that trading means huge gains for him so he is willing to give things up. Be wary of arousing games such as tug of war - I can play it with him now but as a puppy it would push him over the edge easily within seconds of starting. Retrieve games are great for burning off energy - I make them very much the same over and over if I want him to tire out physically and mentally. Changing direction of throws or changing the item thrown could over stimulate him as a pup - something else I had to learn. If I was in your shoes I would evaluate her personality (very self assured and full of herself) and start finding the positives, while working with her on solutions. The positives btw of having a self assured pup are many - in interactions with other dogs, strangers, loud noises etc that leave my little guy completely unfazed. Him exploring strange things is a joy to behold as he figures things out and dismisses them as not dangerous to him in record time. You can see him figure it out! He knows he is the most wonderful being on earth and we are just living in his world.


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## Los Gatoan (Jun 1, 2021)

daabor said:


> Although she NEVER sleeps for more than an hour and a half, everything was going so very well. Housebreaking is well on its way and she now pees outdoors on command. She responds to her name, loves to play, is very affectionate most of the time and is making progress learning to "sit". Millie is absolutely delightful, until she is not.
> 
> Approximately 5 days ago, she began to show sporadic extreme aggression, for a now 13 week old puppy. I am not talking about puppy biting, lunging etc. in play or for attention. It is real aggression. For example, I had always been able to take carpet fuzz/sticks/treats from her mouth. On two occasions, she had something that needed to be removed ( a plastic sticker and some tissue ). When my son tried to take these, she turned into the Tasmanian devil. My 12 1/2 week old puppy was snarling, growling, baring her teeth, lunging and actively snapping/biting. She drew blood 3 times and that's only because we gave her the opportunity. It would have been more.
> 
> ...


We had a similar issue with our German Shepherd many years ago. I was terrified that we were going to have to euthanize the dog. I was referred to an excellent homeopathc veterinarian and he saved our beautiful black shepherd--and she went on to live a long, healthy and very active life with never a single aggressive act again. I was horrified and dismayed to learn that the cause of our pup's aggression was due to over vaccinating. Please feel free to contact me privately, and I will be happy to tell you everything I learned.


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