# Interesting opinion piece on sport of conformation



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I think this is really interesting and wonder if more "laypeople" would be interested in getting into showing (specifically exhibiting, not trialing, since the latter doesn't prohibited altered dogs).

The days may be past when a great many would enter the sport, but it seems a shame. There are barriers to getting into conformation, but that is also the case with other sports done at high levels. Dog showing is different in that one starts out in the big leagues immediately, rather than first showing in a different level (not counting juniors). And it is a sport that offers chances for adults of all ages to start.

By offering the amateur owner handler program AKC seems to be attempting to offer sort of a starting out option. And it's said starting out in UKC can be a great way to learn, but not everyone has UKC conformation shows in their area.

Are We Spaying & Neutering Our Breeds and Our Sport Out of Existence? | Canine Chronicle


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I really enjoyed that article, and agree with most (but not all) of the author's points.

I briefly considered showing Jasper, but I do not think I could keep up a show coat, and I think he's unlikely to have excellent conformation since post-purchase research shows his ancestors were likely bred for color and not breed standard.

perhaps I should have Jasper evaluated and take a handling class and see how we both enjoy it before fully discounting the idea of showing


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Since Jasper would be shown in UKC, you'd have more flexibility with his hair . I think handling classes and exhibiting UKC would be grand for both of you! They even have altered classes from what I understand, which would be fun for me if they were in our area (they aren't), because while Oliver is far from correct, we could still practice and one day if I did have a show prospect, would be a bit readier for those rigors.

When I showed my last dog (AKC), I was so nervous in the ring and never got the hang of things before life changed and we faded away from all those fun times. It would be fun to try again-my dog loved it, just I was shy!

Especially since you have expressed interest in breeding, I'd think this would be an activity that could be a great part of that education as well as lots of fun. And I don't mean that in a patronizing way though it's poorly worded. By spending a good deal of time around others in my previous breed, it helped me begin to learn to try to see the breed standard compared to individual dogs at shows.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

ahh yes. i'd forgotten about the UKC/AKC.
he's only akc registered, so i'd need to look into getting him ukc registered - i hope that's not a long and/or impossible process!

and no worries - i didn't interpret that as patronizing at all! you're very right - going to shows would be one of the best ways to learn, i imagine. my breeding days - if they ever happen! - are decades away so i'll have plenty of time to learn


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Doesn't one registration do for all. AKC, UKC, CKC... a registered Poodle is a registered Poodle, no?


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

it isn't very involved you download the form needed from UKC (single dog registration) fill it out include a copy of the AKC reg and the fee and your finished. Only thing to remember is that UKC allows fewer spaces then AKC in their names which instead of being Breinwoods Werewolves of London my girl is Breinwood Werewolf of London.... 

This is the page that tells you what is needed and has links to the forms needed.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

> Doesn't one registration do for all. AKC, UKC, CKC... a registered Poodle is a registered Poodle, no?


Actually no it isn't. Some registries carry more weight then others. For instance you can register an AKC or CKC registered dog with UKC but neither of them recognize UKC as a legitimate registry which is why most UKC dogs are dual registered with AKC or CKC. If in Europe or other FCI areas the dogs will be dual registered with the appropriate FCI approved registry.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

> They even have altered classes from what I understand, which would be fun for me if they were in our area (they aren't), because while Oliver is far from correct, we could still practice and one day if I did have a show prospect, would be a bit readier for those rigors.


Yes UKC has classes for Altered dogs and they can earn the same titles with the same requirements as intact dog. The dog in my avatar is now an Altered GRCh in UKC. Altered classes can be harder to find competition in but I think it is one of the best features of UKC as that lovely dog that for one reason or another has been altered still has a chance to shine.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> Doesn't one registration do for all. AKC, UKC, CKC... a registered Poodle is a registered Poodle, no?


Fairly certain to show in a kennel club a dog needs to be registered in that respective club and compete under its rules and point schedules in hopes of titling. AKC and CKC being in different countries they are separate organizations with different rules, so guessing a dog like say Arreau's Jameson may be registered in both organizations since he showed down here as well.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

AKC should offer an Altered class in the conformation ring. That way, pretty much the author's "1985 version of starting to show" could still work out perfectly well. 

And they should allow/encourage less extreme haircuts on Poodles, too.

But both of these things are just my opinion and will never happen! :aetsch:

--Q


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Ah but then you run into the myth that dog shows are ONLY for evaluating future breeding stock..... not that it is actually a sport now where many people compete just for the fun or challenge but never actually breed the majority of the dogs shown.


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## Renai (Dec 29, 2015)

When we decided we wanted a poodle I stated that one of the things I was interested in was trying out conformation. Having always had rescues it wasn't ever an option before. It wasn't a top priority, I mainly wanted a dog with structure good for agility, which precludes certain current poodle conformation trends - a level croup, crappy front, ewe neck - but I figured this could be my only chance to have a conformation-eligible dog, so I wanted to check it out.

At the last minute the co-breeder decided that none of the puppies were good enough and that we'd have to have a pet contract or wait for another litter. We were already way too invested in getting a puppy so the latter wasn't going to happen. Aw well. We were a little baffled, and probably a little offended. We're not going to sell him to a puppy mill or breed a dog that shouldn't be bred, it's ludicrous. I just wanted to try this thing out. But being a color breeder, and working very hard to make a reputation for herself, we figured she's super conservative about what she lets in the ring. It's unfortunate that people feel like they have to be so cautious.

I picked the best puppy I could, having read most of the books on structure, and I thought he was pretty damn good. The only thing I was worried about were his hocks, which weren't well let down, but none of the puppys' were, so I thought it might be a puppy thing, and he's grown out of it. We're constantly blown away by him. He's typey, sound and balanced, as far as I can tell. I've read the standards a million times. His chest is gorgeous, making me afraid I'll never be able to settle for a dog without a front as good as his. His neck is long and strong and elegant. He free stacks all the time and he's just the most regal, dignified looking puppy. He moves like a spirit. The problem we were told the co-breeder had with the whole litter doesn't make any sense to me, given everything I've read, and checked since. His breeders have seen him since and told us not to neuter him so they can check him out when he's fully grown. Of course, by then if we are going to show him we'll have to grow him out into a continental, I was willing to do the puppy cut, but I'm not sure if the continental suits his lifestyle. I'd probably do it, but I wouldn't like it.

We've gone to some shows since and I still couldn't understand why he shouldn't be in there. I saw dogs win that had way worse things going on than he ever will, I'll leave it at that. It's baffling and discouraging, and I'm a nut that's been obsessed with dog structure for more than a decade. I can't imagine how this sport _could_ grow, frankly. Dog breeders have gotten so defensive about being good breeders that they've made a really insular community, the barrier to entry is enormous.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

On the other hand I said I wanted to learn about Dandies at their National and I was taken in hand and taught everything they could teach me over the weekend. I was invited to get on a waiting list for a bitch to show so they would have a major as there are a whooping 3 bitches in our area and 1 dog. I felt welcomed and when I hooked up with one of them at the show in Denver they were like remind me of your name but I remember seeing you in Fall... and I was invited to get a puppy and join them. Grooming lessons included  I was and still am in shock about it as I spent 4 days in the basement with the poodle folks doing the ignore the outsider thing AGAIN (this makes 3 years of that treatment) EVEN people I know that had poodles there would speak to the friends I was with, ignore my hi how are you and then walk off. Hmmm guess who will get more new people...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Have you considered UKC? You can show an altered dog there. Apparently it is a warmer community, and the dogs are mostly owner/handled. It might help you satisfy your urge to show.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

spindledreams said:


> Ah but then you run into the myth that dog shows are ONLY for evaluating future breeding stock..... not that it is actually a sport now where many people compete just for the fun or challenge but never actually breed the majority of the dogs shown.


I would say that the majority if people showing dogs are doing so as a part of their breeding program. It's an awfully expensive hobby to just have a collection of finished champions that you never breed!


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## Renai (Dec 29, 2015)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Have you considered UKC? You can show an altered dog there. Apparently it is a warmer community, and the dogs are mostly owner/handled. It might help you satisfy your urge to show.


I don't know who your question is directed to but I do want to show in UKC. The co-breeder is dismissive of the UKC though, and I want to get everyone's blessing before I register him with the UKC, since limited registration in AKC becomes full UKC registration and I don't want anyone to take it the wrong way.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

mostly due to this article, i've decided to at least put the very ends of my toes in the water. i'm going to go to a dog show later this month in the hopes that there are some poodles (though i'm sure i'll love it even if there aren't!).

i also looked up UKC clips and the sporting clip doesn't give me a heart attack when i look at it the way all the others do. now i just need someone to evaluate Jasper


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Excellent article! Very interesting perspective and I think a good one. This automatic spaying and neutering of every puppy that isn't planning on showing and breeding not only reduces a lot of opportunities, but it also reduces the gene pool. Throwing out of the gene pool every dog that isn't just perfect is a shame. Now that is not to say that dogs with serious health issues should be kept intact and bred. No way. That is what has probably caused a lot of health issues. But sometimes I think we throw the baby out with the bath water when we, as a society is so trigger happy with the scalpel. Okay, bad metaphor. :act-up:

As it often happens, the same sire is often used over and over and over again... multiple times in his life time, the same champion, the talk of the town...and with that, we're doing a real disservice to the breed I think by leaving little diversity left in a breed. I'd like to see more genetic material to work with.


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