# Another raid!!



## Keithsomething

Another breeder has been raided and had dogs seized!! I find all of this absolutely disgusting and when I heard WHO it was that these dogs belonged too I was even more disappointed! for someone to claim to posses a whole H*LL of the rules on breeding that they would allow their dogs to be in this condition! There was a litter of newborns in a barn with the dam CHAINED to the wall...

absolutely appalling, please lets try and help these poodles anyway possible!!

FB group for Forget Me Not Animal Shelter


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## papoodles

*Oh NO!*

Heartbreaking story, Keith, what could have happened to bring that breeder so low?? Thank you for the alert.I surely do want to help.


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## Countryboy

Great link, Keith. We've now got three threads goin' on this topic. Nobody seems to be interested in any of them tho... 

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/21266-poodle-rescue-ferry-county-wa.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/21223-poodles-washington.html


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

What a sad day in the world of Poodles. I hope we find out she is ill or has had a breakdown or something because there is no other excuse for dogs being in such deplorable conditions. And the litter with their poor Mom chained like that...well that is beyond heart breaking. From what I gather, all of the dogs are only being placed in foster care because she is fighting to regain custody of them all.


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## Countryboy

IMO, illness or a breakdown is not really an excuse. If yr looking after animals yr looking after them... that's it. If u can't do it, get somebody else to do it. 

This whole story hasn't come out yet but I would wonder, whoever 'she' is, on what grounds does she think she should get the dogs back?


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## Keithsomething

Well we're all pretty acquainted with this breeder as shes an illustrious member of this forum...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Countryboy said:


> IMO, illness or a breakdown is not really an excuse. If yr looking after animals yr looking after them... that's it. If u can't do it, get somebody else to do it.
> 
> This whole story hasn't come out yet but I would wonder, whoever 'she' is, on what grounds does she think she should get the dogs back?


I agree CB...if you KNOW you are ill. I am sure the folks on the hoarding shows on TV do not think they are ill or have a problem.


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## 2719

I must admit whenever this illustrious member posted I took it with a bit of skepticism. 
I had read that a few years previous a poodle rescue group had offered to take her poodles off her hands because they were being kept outside in deplorable conditions. She would not release them at that time and she used to rant on her website about how dare they try to take her dogs. I tried to keep an open mind, that things had gotten better and she had changed. But sadly she fooled a lot of people. And her poor poodles suffered and are suffering.


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## Countryboy

Thanx, Keith. I'm gonna go watch the 'Noles chop up Clemson and :shut-mouth: 'til more of this story comes out.


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## My babies

Keithsomething said:


> Well we're all pretty acquainted with this breeder as shes an illustrious member of this forum...


Omg. This breeder is a member on this forum. She's a poodle lover???? I would not believe it in a thousand years. Those living conditions I saw in the pics just don't happen over night. Absolutely no excuse for that.


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## Fluffyspoos

There's a reason she never posted in the 'Poodle Pictures' section of the forum, just the breeding section because she's obviously an expert.


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## Keithsomething

I'm very curious to see if she'll respond to this or if she'll pretend like it didn't happen...


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## Countryboy

If she can type, I would be asking why she can't better use her hands to look after her dogs.


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## Kloliver

This is just disgusting. There is no possible justification for a case to be made by the jailer/'breeder' to keep these dogs. I pray the shelter is given custody so he/she's put out of biz & the dogs given a new life


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## Jdcollins

I would be willing to foster but I'm in Florida :-/
How can anyone treat an animal like that. So sad.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## poodlegang

All this cases are very sad bad unfortunately this people don't realise they are sick.I also know about a person that kept 6 dogs and 5 cats for there hole life closed in the house because she said if she lets them out they will get diseases.


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## Countryboy

Well, ya know what? To put my anger into perspective . . really . . no dogs will die on account of this woman. They have been abused and neglected for who knows how long. But they will survive. Thank Dawg! 

So... in the 'great cosmic scheme' of things, this is a minor incident. And will be worked thru. But at GREAT cost in volunteer time... and money. *I sent a donation yesterday*.

BUT!! I'm still livid after seeing these images taken by the rescue people and the sheriffs department. To mix definitions, this shows neurosis bordering on the psychotic in a person who imagines herself a breeder. 'Specially if she is a 'breeder' in name only... and is calling herself a breeder simply in order to justify 'hoarding' this number of dogs.

'Sick' is no excuse...


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## kdias

This whole thing just makes me sick to my stomach.


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## Carley's Mom

I can not bare to look at the pictures. I don't know who we are talking about... but if I lived close enough I would foster some of those poor dogs. Please open up your homes and help if you can!


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## Keithsomething

It appears these dogs are NOT safe yet! The breeder (yaddaluvpoodles here on the forum or better known as Darla Dehlin) is pushing to get her dogs back...because she clearly was taking stupendous care of them -.-. A local groomer has offered her service to groom the dogs but she has not been allowed to because of the breeders unwillingness to see the error in her ways!

We can not let this woman have the dogs back to neglect! everyone please donate or give or do something to ensure these dogs stay in an environment that they're safe in!!


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## Olie

I donated money.....and wish I could do more. So sad, the pics of the dogs were awful. The thought of them going back to that neglect and abuse is disgusting. 

She is a very smart woman and knows her stuff she just refused to practice what she spent endless long posts doing.

She will just change her kennel name and start again maybe this one *"In honor of Vic, I am changing my affix from "Yadda Poodles" to "Weyekin Poodles"*

Too much evidence for anyone to make an exuse for why her dogs lived like this!


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## Quossum

Her, really? That is just so sad. She had some interesting posts here. 

That just goes to show...to each of us, everyone else on the forum is just words on glass (with the happy exceptions of those of us who have met one another here or there "in real life"). We don't *really* know who all those other people are, what their lives are like; we can only piece together our opinions based on what they say, the pictures they post (or don't!), the words they choose to put forth. Words that don't necessarily reveal a harsh, a brutal reality. Something like this comes out, and it's a slap in the face, a reminder of how fragile our knowledge of our "internet friends" really is. 

I've heard murmurs of mental illness playing a part in this debacle, and if that's so, then my sympathies are extended to her, but that's no excuse for the horrific treatment of those poor animals.

I hope they all end up in better situations, and that yadda gets the help she needs. So very, very sad.

--Q


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## Countryboy

Quossum said:


> I've heard murmurs of mental illness playing a part in this debacle, and if that's so, then my sympathies are extended to her, but that's no excuse for the horrific treatment of those poor animals.
> 
> I hope they all end up in better situations, and that yadda gets the help she needs. So very, very sad.
> 
> --Q


Oh for sure, Q. For such a reasonable lady, and considering the evidence I've seen so far, there is a hormone imbalance involved. Serotonin and Norepinephrine heavily influence our outlook on the world... and our priorities in life. 

How 'bout the guy in the Bronx Zoo who '[URL="http://news.sympatico.ctvnews.ca/home/mauled_man_wanted_to_be_one_with_bronx_zoo_tiger_faces_arrest/194a297b]wanted to be 'one' with the Tiger[/URL]. I'll bet money that, in his mind, this was a perfectly rational thing to do. 

We know it's not... but it's almost impossible to convince them without meds to regulate Serotonin re-uptake.


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## murphys

Hopefully the dogs/dames/puppies will be taken away permanently and placed in permanent, well checked out homes. Further, that the owner gets whatever care she requires if there is indeed a medical issue at hand. If there isn't a medical issue, I fear that there are not strong enough laws to prevent her from doing this again. 

I have to wonder where the people were that know the owner and why they didn't take action. Or the neighbors. Anyone. Until it got to this point. 

I also bear in mind that we don't know the entire story, only what has been revealed. 

This situation so far is extremely disturbing, upsetting and infuriating!


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## CharismaticMillie

murphys said:


> Hopefully the dogs/dames/puppies will be taken away permanently and placed in permanent, well checked out homes. Further, that the owner gets whatever care she requires if there is indeed a medical issue at hand. If there isn't a medical issue, I fear that there are not strong enough laws to prevent her from doing this again.
> 
> I have to wonder where the people were that know the owner and why they didn't take action. Or the neighbors. Anyone. Until it got to this point.
> 
> I also bear in mind that we don't know the entire story, only what has been revealed.
> 
> This situation so far is extremely disturbing, upsetting and infuriating!


I know that she lives in a remote area so I'm sure that impacted neighborly influence. That said, there was a general awareness of the issue, though I think many people hoped she had gotten things under control. There has been plenty of time for her to do so.

Though Yadda's posts always sounded pleasing to read, once I learned of Rescue's attempt to relieve her of her dogs after she wanted to surrender her adults (but not the breeding dogs), and that she had several adults living outside, I knew that the voice that spoke on this forum was a misrepresentation.


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## KidWhisperer

*Makes me furious!!!*

I'm sorry, but this behavior is deplorable and criminal, regardless of who they are or what their reputation might be. And to disguise ones' self as a poodle expert makes it that much more horrendous. 

May God bless those rescuers and the foster homes who will be taking the dogs and puppies in, and yes, I sent my donation with a note.


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## murphys

CharismaticMillie said:


> I know that she lives in a remote area so I'm sure that impacted neighborly influence. That said, there was a general awareness of the issue, though I think many people hoped she had gotten things under control. There has been plenty of time for her to do so.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Knowing that just makes it worse.
> 
> I hope and pray she gets help for whatever ails.... This is just so wrong on so many levels. And the sad part is she is not alone in doing this sort of thing.


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## VancouverBC

How sad. Sending positive energy to the lady and her poodle family to be in better situations soon.


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## tokipoke

I am shocked who the breeder is! I would have never guessed. It is also shocking how her words (on this forum) and her actions in real life don't match. It really makes you wonder about people and how they portray themselves. It makes me so sad to see a poodle advocate treat the breed in such a disgusting way.


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## ThunderRun

*New info*

Forget me Not Animal Shelter put more info on their FB page. 

I've seen a couple people try to defend this issue as "not that bad" and "you don't know what happened." Which is crap. If those were kids, naked and in a barn with a bucket of water we wouldn't think twice about saying it was deplorable. I'm not suggesting dogs are people, but they deserve dignity and care. "I can't afford it," and "At least they are alive" are just excuses. 

I was told that two skulls were found on the property, which I can confirm by looking at the dead carcass behind the dogs in one of the photos. This was not acceptable, no excuses!


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## schnauzerpoodle

Not that bad???? Seriously?? That is not bad????

Geez~ Speechless.


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## ThunderRun

*Oh yeah! Some people think it could be worse*

They noted no visible wounds on the dogs and that they weren't starving as reasons that it wasn't that bad. I haven't heard anything from that person again after I said that excuses are irrelevant. But even some people o this forum are trying to offer the benefit of the doubt, and maybe I just received more info. But I don't think the dogs have to be on death's door in order to be "abused."


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## tokipoke

It is abuse when you KNOW that a poodle needs regular grooming yet you just stick them outside and let them get in that condition. Where is the responsibility? Neglecting a dog that can be engulfed in its own matted hair, filth, and feces is cruel. Dogs can lose their limbs and lives due to matted hair. And if she wanted to keep them outside, fine - why couldn't she have cleaned up all the junk out there? Make a cleaner kennel? On top of all that - some of the dogs are very under-socialized. Having dogs and ignoring them is abusive.


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## ThunderRun

*totally agree tokipoke.*

i think that people that are trying to justify it are trying to relieve their own guilt.


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## petitpie

PF will never see her post here again as an authority, whatever the subject.


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## liljaker

Although I have not followed many of the breeders' threads on this forum, I agree with everyone that this news was absolutely terrible, and let's hope that these poodles will ultimately get a new lease on life -- with a much more caring owner. I did not see the pictures, but didn't need to. 

What I find interesting, since this is the first "forum" I have ever posted on, is how this should put in perspective how much you can really trust what someone posts on a forum, how experienced they really are, if they speak from first hand knowledge, or hearsay, and if the poster is really who you think they are -- their forum identity. I take away from this very sad situation a good lesson, in that if this had not happened, this member would have possibly continued to give information and advice, with credibility being established for many by an internet presence only. I assume there are members who know each other personally, but many are just Internet Forum Members.........and I think a little bit of unfortunate reality for everyone when it comes to people posting on forums. Just my two cents.


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## Keithsomething

No the scary thing is this woman was involved with PHR and the standard poodle diversity project (or whatever the title was). All of these things are online but EVERYONE knew what she was doing -.- 


But you're absolutely right makes you wonder how much "experience" people really have outside of the Internet...I think there are several members on this forum that preach with no knowledge...unfortunately they're followed by the blind deaf masses


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## susgul

*Don't Darken Our Doors!*

I hope this individual doesn't show up on this site, again. She's a nurse and I hope she shows more compassion toward humans in her care than she did these poor babies. What a fake!


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## 2719

tokipoke said:


> . And if she wanted to keep them outside, fine - why couldn't she have cleaned up all the junk out there? Make a cleaner kennel? On top of all that - some of the dogs are very under-socialized. Having dogs and ignoring them is abusive.



Why...because she was too busy sitting on her A** logging on to her computer and fooling everyone with her poodle expertise. She was offered help and turned it down because she did not want to be dictated to by rescue groups. She put herself, her ego first...her poodles second.


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## Carley's Mom

Stories like this is the reason I could never be a breeder. You don't truly know where you are sending your puppies. I know a woman in this town, (I decorated her house) she lives in a beautiful home, married a very important man in this town ect. She could fool anyone into thinking their pup was going to a wonderful home and it would be going straight to hell. I was there long enough to convince her to give up her dog. I told her until her birds were re-homed I would not be coming back ect. She could not see past her own nose and had no feelings for her animals at all. THE WORLD IS FULL OF THEM...


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## Fluffyspoos

Well, take these threads into consideration

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20853-buying-pup-out-untested-parents.html
Speaks for itself

http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/19351-thinking-about-types-breeders-long.html
Demeaning the traits of a responsible breeder

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20085-behalf-all-us-dogs-i-need-your-help.html
"*I *need your help," because we all know no one would buy a dog after seeing their living conditions, because she DID have something to hide


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## schnauzerpoodle

Abuse, human or canine or any living creatures, comes in different forms. Emotional abuse can do as much, if not more, damage to someone as physical abuse.

Dogs always act like dogs if they are allowed to. Unfortunately humans do not always act like humans. To make things worse, some humans pretend to be something else and they can pretend so well.


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## Kloliver

*Thx to the 3 thread posters*

The rescue org coordinator has received such overwhelming support from the poodle community- local & otherwise, so thx for bringing this to our attention :act-up:

This is what she wrote:

_"We've been shocked by the support! We were a bit terrified about having to figure out how to house, rehab, and adopt out 29 dogs ourselves, so knowing the poodle community is with us makes SUCH a difference.

We want everyone to know how much we appreciate their kindness and support. We're a little (tiny) volunteer-created shelter in the middle of nowhere, but now we feel like we can handle whatever comes our way."_


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## Bunny

yay. so glad to hear that. I tossed them a donation today. Those poor babies just break my heart.


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## CT Girl

This is such a heart breaking thread. To think of what those dogs have endured. All that can be done now is to support the work of the rescue. It seems like a few on this forum had an inkling that all was not as it should be. Hopefully they alerted the authorities. After reading Yadda's posts and hearing she is trying to get her animals back I can only conclude that she is ill and just did not process the suffering of her dogs.


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## Countryboy

Thanx, Kloliver. It's so good to hear that. :amen:

I kept thinking all the time of these poor volunteer rescue people, in a place where very little happens, all of a sudden being asked to help with SUCH an influx of dogs. Many, many hours of work! It must have been overwhelming for them. 

Kudos to them... :thumb: ...and to many of us . . . all who donated . . for at least seeing that they were not starved of cash. I know that it was the least I could do.

If u continue to be in touch with the rescue coordinator, I would like to thank her and her crew for stepping in when one of our own went off the rails. They, and the Ferry County Sheriff's Department will continue to need our support in the next step . . . seeing that these dogs are not returned to anyone who is not capable of caring for them properly.


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## Keithsomething

Personally I don't really give a f*ck if she's ill or not she's a monster who CLEARLY doesn't give a crap how her dogs are taken care of. Don't worry I'm sure she'll get a chapter in that crackpot Katie Dokkens book! Who we shouldn't forget about because her two year no dog probation should be up soon...imagine that scum having more dogs >.<

I have a ton of information on Katie Dokken I plan on posting soon because these incidents should NEVER be forgotten, especially when these monsters are repeat offenders!


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## CharismaticMillie

CT Girl said:


> It seems like a few on this forum had an inkling that all was not as it should be. Hopefully they alerted the authorities.


A while back, she contacted Poodle Rescue wanting them to help her by taking some poodles off her hands. Their requirement for helping her was that she also surrender her breeding dogs, which she would not do. I would imagine that Poodle Rescue has been on this trail for awhile.


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## faerie

this is just so freaking sad.


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## Dog catcher

It is very difficult to contemplate the misery these dogs have endured. Having read here and other places that genetic traits are passed from one generation to the next, is it cruel for me to hope this individual is not as prolific a breeder of babies as she is of poodles ?


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## Marcie

Keithsomething said:


> Another breeder has been raided and had dogs seized!! I find all of this absolutely disgusting and when I heard WHO it was that these dogs belonged too I was even more disappointed! for someone to claim to posses a whole H*LL of the rules on breeding that they would allow their dogs to be in this condition! There was a litter of newborns in a barn with the dam CHAINED to the wall...
> 
> absolutely appalling, please lets try and help these poodles anyway possible!!
> 
> FB group for Forget Me Not Animal Shelter


It makes me sick. I saw this on Poodle Rescue of Houston website as well. I do what I can but I don't have a lot of money and I live in Texas. 

When will it all stop? I get so depressed when I see sweet little dogs that didn't ask to be born treated so badly.


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## Chagall's mom

liljaker said:


> Although I have not followed many of the breeders' threads on this forum, I agree with everyone that this news was absolutely terrible, and let's hope that these poodles will ultimately get a new lease on life -- with a much more caring owner. I did not see the pictures, but didn't need to.
> 
> What I find interesting, since this is the first "forum" I have ever posted on, is how this should put in perspective how much you can really trust what someone posts on a forum, how experienced they really are, if they speak from first hand knowledge, or hearsay, and if the poster is really who you think they are -- their forum identity. I take away from this very sad situation a good lesson, in that if this had not happened, this member would have possibly continued to give information and advice, with credibility being established for many by an internet presence only. I assume there are members who know each other personally, but many are just Internet Forum Members.........and I think a little bit of unfortunate reality for everyone when it comes to people posting on forums. Just my two cents.


I think your "two cents" are really the million dollar jackpot! I first heard about this horrible episode from Chagall's breeder, prior to seeing any postings on the forum. I share that because it fortifies my belief in the very good breeders and people in the poodle community. Your post shows you're one of them!!:thumb:


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## Countryboy

I just posted this Fb Comment to . . well . . it all shows below.

Frank Atyeo posted to Forget Me Not Animal Shelter

I'm sure I speak for all the members of Poodle Forum when I thank y'all for what must have been the Herculean task of rescue that was dumped on yr volunteers lately. Thank Dawg that u were there! Donations are the least service that WE can supply...

U, and the Sheriff's Department will have more to do to see that these dogs continue to be housed in a caring environment. We WILL be there to help in any way we can. Please don't hesitate to contact us! 

And, I suppose, a bit of a reminder to all here that this episode is not over yet. These dogs all *belong* to Yadda. And not all judges will understand, as we do, that these dogs were severely neglected. These people in Republic will need voices to convince the Legislators there that returning them to their *rightful owner* is not in the dog's best interests.

ETA... the bolding is how the Legal System will see it . . . not the way I see it...


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## ThunderRun

*More Photos*

Press release coming this afternoon.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Where is the album? Are these these the same photos that are circulating on FB?


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## ThunderRun

*new photos*

At newspaper called "he View"


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## ThunderRun

*Keep the pressure on*

Waiting on news


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## Kloliver

Please please please let the judge rule in the best interests of the dogs- not DD's


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

OOps!


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## PaddleAddict

Fluffyspoos said:


> Well, take these threads into consideration
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20853-buying-pup-out-untested-parents.html
> Speaks for itself
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/14-poodle-breeding/19351-thinking-about-types-breeders-long.html
> Demeaning the traits of a responsible breeder
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/20085-behalf-all-us-dogs-i-need-your-help.html
> "*I *need your help," because we all know no one would buy a dog after seeing their living conditions, because she DID have something to hide


It's funny you should point these threads out because I was JUST thinking of a thread she posted in recently (I was also participating in the dicussion) where she was basically defending a large-scale BYB. I was really surprised. At first I thought "Oh she's must just be extremely open minded and gives the benefit of the doubt" but I eventually became wary of her and I decided I would not interact with her anymore. I did not think much of it until I read this post and saw her animals in deplorable condition. 

Here is that thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/16-poodle-breeder-directory/7853-family-affair-12.html


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## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> At first I thought "Oh she's must just be extremely open minded and gives the benefit of the doubt"


I always thot that of her too. And I still do. She was the voice of reason and could see all 'sides'. 

Once again words are being twisted. Being able to understand a position becomes 'basically defending'. I will not go along with that spin.


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## PaddleAddict

Countryboy said:


> I always thot that of her too. And I still do. She was the voice of reason and could see all 'sides'.
> 
> Once again words are being twisted. Being able to understand a position becomes 'basically defending'. I will not go along with that spin.


You are missing my point (as if often the case with you for some reason). 

It becomes MUCH DIFFERENT to read her posts knowing the condition she kept her own dogs in.


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## Carley's Mom

PA, I took her on in Family Affair thread. And to my surprise she was getting much more support from others on the forum... I for one, will not EVER buy a dog and have it shipped to me. If I can't walk around the place, look at the condition of the mother of the pup, you will not get my $$$$. I have to be in agreement with the breeder's view of how dogs should live, to support them.


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## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> You are missing my point (as if often the case with you for some reason).
> 
> It becomes MUCH DIFFERENT to read her posts knowing the condition she kept her own dogs in.


Yessssss... the fact that it becomes MUCH DIFFERENT may have been one of yr points. I see that.

But to accuse her of DEFENDING a byb when she was only reminding us, as she always did, that there are two sides to most stories, is twisting the point of her message beyond what she said.


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## PaddleAddict

Countryboy said:


> Yessssss... the fact that it becomes MUCH DIFFERENT may have been one of yr points. I see that.
> 
> But to accuse her of DEFENDING a byb when she was only *reminding us, as she always did, that there are two sides to most stories, *is twisting the point of her message beyond what she said.


It sure seems there were two sides to HER story. Unfortunately, the side many of us did not know about was a very dark side indeed.


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## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> It sure seems there were two sides to HER story. Unfortunately, the side many of us did not know about was a very dark side indeed.


There is no doubt abt that. I agree completely.


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## Kloliver

https://www.facebook.com/ForgetMeNotAnimalShelter

Just posted

"Today's quick poodle update: the Ferry County Prosecutor has plans to file charges tomorrow, and expects it could be up to 3 weeks before the hearing :-( That is a LONG time for these poor babies to wait. 

We're using the time well, though, getting plans lined up for best-case-scenario transfers to poodle rescues and/or adoptions from Forget Me Not. If we get the Spoos (love that term), we will have a spay/neuter frenzy for the adults and then get them on their way to new lives as quickly as possible. 

Do you think it's possible to keep fingers crossed for 3 weeks and still function as a productive member of society? Hmmmm, we'll let you know...."


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## CT Girl

I hope the judge understands the extent of cruelty these dogs have suffered. This time can be put to good use getting these dogs socialized and cared for so they can go to the loving homes they deserve. I too will be keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Kloliver

*Just a thought.*

Hey Everyone:

In order not to compromise the case we shd probably keep mum & stick to the facts & avoid opinions; try to stick to positive sharing about the shelter helping the dogs, rather than ranting about the conditions or the breeder. 

Make sense?

Here's a heart-warming update. The foster home environment is so very much more appropriate

http://forgetmenotshelter.org/Poodles/


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## Bunny

In thinking about that shelter, I'm remembering the video from the Asheville, (NC) shelter on that black spoo...Magic? something like that. If anyone can remember what that was, they should forward that to them.

sounds like the authorities are moving about as fast as they can.


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## Pluto

Kloliver said:


> Hey Everyone:
> 
> In order not to compromise the case we shd probably keep mum & stick to the facts & avoid opinions; try to stick to positive sharing about the shelter helping the dogs, rather than ranting about the conditions or the breeder.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> Here's a heart-warming update. The foster home environment is so very much more appropriate
> 
> Poodle Rescue


Could you expand on how the sharing of information regarding the owner/breeder would compromise the case? I don't mean this in a snarky way, I really don’t understand?


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## Kloliver

*Feel free to PM me for details*



Pluto said:


> Could you expand on how the sharing of information regarding the owner/breeder would compromise the case? I don't mean this in a snarky way, I really don’t understand?


No snarkiness inferred :act-up:

As cautioned by someone (not the breeder) directly involved in the case, I'd be happy to answer this question by PM.


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## fjm

In the UK this would now be considered sub judice, although restrictions in that context apply more to media publication. But anything that compromised the probability of a fair trial would be considered grounds for an appeal, at the least.


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## Ladywolfe

If only to help offenders comprehend the situation, it is a shame that the penalty could not be a period of like treatment for themselves. Of course, who is going to be willing to provide them a good home to them, afterwards?


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## Dagmar

*Very sad*

I am Dagmar. A little bit more than a year ago I found this forum and have been avid reader. Now because of this thread I decide to join.
Not long ago I had a wife and we had two pudels. We had a good life. Then my wife died. I stopped living. I could no longer care for my self or the dogs. I could feed everyone, I could make sure to let the dogs run in the field behind house. And sometimes I could clean up after the dogs. I didn’t have ability to get my haircut or to shave and the dogs didn’t get clipped. About a year after my wife died my daughter visited. She got the pudels to the groomer and me to get a haircut. I saw doctor and got Rx for depression. And went to counselor. Now I am fine. 
I lost my wife’s pudel, Ragnar, 3 years ago to bone cancer. He was nine. Last year my Sopie died of heart complications. She was 10. I had always thought pudels lived to be 12-13 years. Then through the some of Yadda’s postings I discovered PHR. I studied the pedigrees and the health history. And I see disturbing trend. I see breedings done on basis of pretty and popularity over and over. And I see many health problems. Problems that appear to be linked to the lack of genetic diversity. It is sad. As the big pudels are magnificent. I have owned five in my lifetime. Two were just so smart. Two were amazing and one that was beyond desription. To look in her eyes was to see compassion and wit. That was my Sopie. Our first two pudels did live to be 12. Our third to 11 and then 9 and 10. The big pudels seem to be in trouble. It goes back to lack of diversity. We need to keep diversity.
So we have sad situation. Yadda had too many pudels. None of them looking like they had missed any meals. But shaggy and dirty. So we vilify this woman. We say what ever she put on forum is bullsh*t and lies and miss information. We must punish her. We must make example of heinous people like her. We take her dogs. Yeah that good. Then when we get court approval we destroy what ever genetic diversity she had been working towards. Good punishment for her. But also good punishment to the breed. But we don’t think about that. We just want vengence. The majority wins over common sense always.
We don’t know of this woman’s life. We don’t know her situation. We have knee jerk reaction and we react. I keep thinking what is on other page of this woman. What is her situation. Is she overwhelmed with life? I was. Is she depressed? I was. Is making wise choices at this time too difficult? It was for me. I got help. Someone came in and helped me get back on track. I got my life back and my dogs in order again. But did anyone help Yadda? Or is it just too darn easy to throw mud and crucify. I think Yadda deserves maybe some compassion and help from this forum. Help her get the dogs in shape. Keep those diverse genetics. Get her kennel to manageable size. Make sure that she get whatever medical help she needs to be a part of living again. But you won’t. For same reason many of you don’t work on genetic diversity. You want life to be pretty. And tidy. Not complicated. 
Sleep well.


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## petitpie

Thank you for giving us another side and perhaps she would have gotten help sooner, if she had a caring person like your daughter to help.


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## Countryboy

Dagmar said:


> I saw doctor and got Rx for depression. And went to counselor.


Kudos to u, Dagmar. U made the above first step. But we can do nothing for those who won't accept help. That is always the biggest hurdle! 

I will help anyone who remains 'on their meds'. There is really no point even knowing those who won't. It's a complete waste of time....


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## VancouverBC

Dagmar, Big ((((((((((HUGS)))))))) for your courage and voice of reason. 

If this a true community, we do not abandon those in their time not in the light. We support, support, support and keep supporting until they are ready to receive the support. It is not when we are ready to support. It is never about us.

The sad situation is before the courts. Let us keep sending good vibs to all concerned.


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## PaddleAddict

Dagmar said:


> So we vilify this woman. We say what ever she put on forum is bullsh*t and lies and miss information..


Maybe I need to go back and read all the posts more carefully, but I don't think anyone said that. We only said that she said one type of thing here, but seemingly led a different life in reality.

Also, it sounds like this has been going on a long time, that other people and groups have been aware. At some point you do need to put the dogs' welfare first.

I am sorry to hear what you went through and glad that you got help.


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## CT Girl

Dagmar, thank you for your compassionate and thoughtful post. I don't know Yadda's backstory but in the rush to judgement people can be overly harsh. I am glad to see her poodles in the loving care of the rescue organization and I hope Yadda receives the help she needs too. 

VancouverBC what a beautiful post. It is a sad situation for both sides (Yadda and the poodles) but hopefully things will turn around and work out best for all concerned. 

I am so happy to see the new pictures of the mom and puppies. Their transformation is amazing.


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## Poodlecat

Dagmar said:


> I am Dagmar. A little bit more than a year ago I found this forum and have been avid reader. Now because of this thread I decide to join.
> Not long ago I had a wife and we had two pudels. We had a good life. Then my wife died. I stopped living. I could no longer care for my self or the dogs. I could feed everyone, I could make sure to let the dogs run in the field behind house. And sometimes I could clean up after the dogs. I didn’t have ability to get my haircut or to shave and the dogs didn’t get clipped. About a year after my wife died my daughter visited. She got the pudels to the groomer and me to get a haircut. I saw doctor and got Rx for depression. And went to counselor. Now I am fine.
> I lost my wife’s pudel, Ragnar, 3 years ago to bone cancer. He was nine. Last year my Sopie died of heart complications. She was 10. I had always thought pudels lived to be 12-13 years. Then through the some of Yadda’s postings I discovered PHR. I studied the pedigrees and the health history. And I see disturbing trend. I see breedings done on basis of pretty and popularity over and over. And I see many health problems. Problems that appear to be linked to the lack of genetic diversity. It is sad. As the big pudels are magnificent. I have owned five in my lifetime. Two were just so smart. Two were amazing and one that was beyond desription. To look in her eyes was to see compassion and wit. That was my Sopie. Our first two pudels did live to be 12. Our third to 11 and then 9 and 10. The big pudels seem to be in trouble. It goes back to lack of diversity. We need to keep diversity.
> So we have sad situation. Yadda had too many pudels. None of them looking like they had missed any meals. But shaggy and dirty. So we vilify this woman. We say what ever she put on forum is bullsh*t and lies and miss information. We must punish her. We must make example of heinous people like her. We take her dogs. Yeah that good. Then when we get court approval we destroy what ever genetic diversity she had been working towards. Good punishment for her. But also good punishment to the breed. But we don’t think about that. We just want vengence. The majority wins over common sense always.
> We don’t know of this woman’s life. We don’t know her situation. We have knee jerk reaction and we react. I keep thinking what is on other page of this woman. What is her situation. Is she overwhelmed with life? I was. Is she depressed? I was. Is making wise choices at this time too difficult? It was for me. I got help. Someone came in and helped me get back on track. I got my life back and my dogs in order again. But did anyone help Yadda? Or is it just too darn easy to throw mud and crucify. I think Yadda deserves maybe some compassion and help from this forum. Help her get the dogs in shape. Keep those diverse genetics. Get her kennel to manageable size. Make sure that she get whatever medical help she needs to be a part of living again. But you won’t. For same reason many of you don’t work on genetic diversity. You want life to be pretty. And tidy. Not complicated.
> Sleep well.


Dagmar

Thank you so much for your post. You demonstrate not only deep compassion and mercy to your fellow humans, but also great courage. Your late wife must have had great respect for you and must have been very proud of you. I'm sorry for your loss.

Yadda was one of the few voices of reasons on this forum, imho, and intelligently, rationally, and logically championed for standard poodles in most cases. What a great shock to see the condition of her poodles but like Dagmar said, but for the grace of God, could any of us could go. Some on this forum are older and some are younger, some perhaps more foolish at any age, but one might think before they lob rocks at others and ask, if they are without any wrongdoing themselves. And, who is so proud, to know what the future will bring to your life?

The condition of Yadda's poodles does not logically affect any of her rational arguments such as the for need for diversity of the standard poodle. For any here to suggest that, might do better to write up such a thesis and forward it to a scientific journal. Maybe Dr. Anderson will proof it for you.

I do not pretend to know what afflicted or hindered Yadda from caring for her poodles as they should be cared for but to attack her ideas due to her other shortcomings is akin to demanding that all Vincent Van Gogh paintings be burned because he was mentally ill and cut off of his ear. If that same logic ran rampant, most of our art museums would be empty because many artists, albeit not all, had "afflictions". 

If one looks at the big picture though, while some here are so quick to be willing to villify, there are thousands lurking on these threads. Some reading these threads might right now be overwhelmed and need to seek help for they have too many poodles or pets or any kind to care for. How willing do you think that they would be to reach out to this "poodle community" or some people on fb? Who could they go to, as someone else mentioned, if they had no kind daughter like Dagmar had? Where could they go in this culture of ours that increasingly has become a suspicious, angry, snitching, gestapo-like culture vs. a culture of compassion, understanding and mercy? What really puzzles me is how owners and/or breeders of poodles, who are so sweet and like angels of love, can be so as someone said "vicious". Do we own or raise poodles or piranhas??

And what of the human cost? What of Yadda, and others like her now, and in the future? I would like to think she didn't envision raising poodles like she was. How could we create a compassionate environment of support and friendliness, that would make it safe for some that need it, to ask for help without being ostracized?

How can help Yadda or anyone in a similar predicament from recreating these situations? I've read others that imho, shouldn't be breeding, have been told be others that they were hoarders, yet was enabled and supported to breed again. How does that happen? It depends on who you know? 

While the railing heightens, what happens to any poodles that might have diverse genetics that will most be likely be lost? What is the cost to the standard poodle gene pool? Many may not care...less dogs the better. Others, competitive breeders,many that are motivated by money and knowing supply and demand will want S/N for all but their dogs. These might be some of the same breeders that insist on testing (which is a good thing) but you can do all the testing in the world but breeding back to the same inbred gene pool, is not going to ultimately help the debilitating SA and Addison's and other diseases that afflict too many darling poodles.

I agree with Dagmar and hope that everyone reading this post, takes a good, long hard look in the mirror tonight. 

And sleep well.


----------



## Maximuspoodle

*@ dagmar*

I am very sorry for your tragic loss and am glad to hear that you have recovered from your depression and can enjoy life again. I think it is helpful that we can all view situations differently based on our own life experience and share what our insights and perspectives are. Clearly, you view Yadda's/Darla's situation in a particular way based on your own life experience and show concern that she is being unfairly judged and deserves compassion and unconditional support. You are entitled to that opinion and as are those who may come to a different conclusion based on their own experiences. 

Dog breeding is a very expensive and detailed hobby that requires allot of time and study. Undertaken on a large scale it requires extensive planning and the support of a variety of people to produce the genetic diversity that you and all of us admire in the breed we all love. On the other end of the spectrum is what is known as a puppy mill, people who are in the business of breeding dogs for profit. I think that Yadda fell into the second category. I think that Yadda/Darla fancied herself a reputable breeder and presented herself and her operation as such but online in the world of cyberspace anyone can be anything they want. I think that the fantasy was beneficial to her in that while I doubt any reputable breeders were deceived the general public was and that kept her in business. 

My hope, and I know that this is the hope of the shelter, is that Yadda gives up the dogs to the county. Sadly, I fear that some may not have the happy ending that you did and move on to enjoy life. I can speak from experience that rehabilitation of dogs from situations like this can be very time consuming and heartbreaking when despite your best efforts the dogs must be euthanized. I hope that enough dedicated rescue people can find appropriate homes for the long recovery that may face some of the most damaged dogs. Dagmar, I can appreciate your compassion towards the woman you thought you knew online but my compassion and prayers go entirely to the dogs. God bless each one and I hope they all can find some joy in life after the hell they have been through.


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## Poodlee

I have also been a longtime lurker, but was inspired by Dagmar's post to join. I was also very unhappy with the harshness aimed at Yadda. I do not know the other side of the story, and I am not willing to judge her without knowing. Does she need meds? Is she refusing to take meds? Is there something else going on in her life that is making it difficult to keep up with grooming? I don't know the answers. But if this thread has been any indication of the help she's been offered in the past, I'm not surprised she hasn't reached out.

I read the heartwarming update link posted by Kloliver. I don't think that a truly abused mama dog would be so quick to become a friendly, fetch playing, housetrained dog. I am glad that the dogs are doing well but perhaps neglect is a better word than abuse in this situation. 

Whatever else Yadda has or has not done, she has worked hard to improve standard poodle health. She has tracked down diverse lines of poodles. And it is a huge shame to damage the breed by neutering all her dogs. 

Is it too late to save the diverse lines? Can another breeder perhaps take the dogs in?

I do not know Yadda, but her posts were always intelligent and kind. I would hope more in this community could offer her the same.


Poodlee


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## Pluto

Poodlecat said:


> While the railing heightens, what happens to any poodles that might have diverse genetics that will most be likely be lost? What is the cost to the standard poodle gene pool? Many may not care...less dogs the better. Others, competitive breeders, many that are motivated by money and knowing supply and demand will want S/N for all but their dogs. These might be some of the same breeders that insist on testing (which is a good thing) but you can do all the testing in the world but breeding back to the same inbred gene pool, is not going to ultimately help the debilitating SA and Addison's and other diseases that afflict too many darling poodles.


Wow, that’s an uncomfortable line of reasoning. Maybe it is because I am a pet owner, not a breeder, and have loved dogs of many breeds (and even mixes), but I believe it is the individuals that make a breed special. When you abuse individuals to better the breed you lose any reason to preserve or conserve the breed. Luckily the solution is rarely all or nothing. There are options for breeders that find themselves overwhelmed. Special breeding dogs can be rehomed to other breeders if they cannot be properly maintained. Diseased or unstable puppies can be humanly euthanized if they cannot have a good quality of life. 

The solution is never hording and neglect. Even if it results in a loss to the breed as a whole, if spaying/neutering and placing it pet homes is what it takes to these dogs in loving homes where they will be well taken care of, then that is the far better than allowing them to suffer for years in physical and mental neglect. I just can’t fathom saving a breed if you don’t cherish the individual. If there is insufficient interest from poodle fanciers to justify caring for the individuals in addition to the breed, than let the breed die out (FWIW I do not think that is the case).

Maybe it is naive to believe in right and wrong, but I do, and this type of treatment of individual animals is wrong. Do I think that we should crucify abusers? No. But you also can’t help someone who is still maintaining that animal abuse is OK, justifiable, or excusable and is fighting to continue to harm these animals.


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## Poodlecat

Pluto said:


> Wow, that’s an uncomfortable line of reasoning
> 
> *It's unclear what you are referring to, so please be precise of the logic that you disagree with specifically.*
> 
> Maybe it is because I am a pet owner, not a breeder, and have loved dogs of many breeds (and even mixes), but I believe it is the individuals that make a breed special. When you abuse individuals to better the breed you lose any reason to preserve or conserve the breed.
> 
> *Really? So eradicate the Standard Poodle breed because of certain people's actions?*
> 
> Luckily the solution is rarely all or nothing.
> 
> *Correct*
> 
> There are options for breeders that find themselves overwhelmed.
> 
> *Yes, but not if they feel so intimidated that they don't come forward.
> *
> Special breeding dogs can be rehomed to other breeders if they cannot be properly maintained.
> 
> *Exactly my point, don't lose the diverse genetics. Thank you for agreeing with me.*
> 
> Diseased or unstable puppies can be humanly euthanized if they cannot have a good quality of life.
> *I haven't seen anything on the Rescue's site that indicated that any dogs had to be euthanized. Sounds like some were at different levels of socialization but the dam was socialized.*
> 
> 
> The solution is never hording and neglect.
> 
> *Of course not! I never said otherwise. Surely, you're not implying that I did?*
> 
> Even if it results in a loss to the breed as a whole, if spaying/neutering and placing it pet homes is what it takes to these dogs in loving homes where they will be well taken care of, then that is the far better than allowing them to suffer for years in physical and mental neglect. I just can’t fathom saving a breed if you don’t cherish the individual.
> *I never said, suggested, implied or intimated such a thing. Another strawman argument.
> *
> If there is insufficient interest from poodle fanciers to justify caring for the individuals in addition to the breed, than let the breed die out (FWIW I do not think that is the case).
> 
> *I don't think it's the case, either, if people with calmly and rationally think of options in the best interest of the Standard Poodle breed which are, of course, comprised of individuals. I'm sure there would be plenty of people willing to offer loving homes.*
> 
> Maybe it is naive to believe in right and wrong, but I do, and this type of treatment of individual animals is wrong. Do I think that we should crucify abusers? No. But you also can’t help someone who is still maintaining that animal abuse is OK, justifiable, or excusable and is fighting to continue to harm these animals.
> 
> *Of course, the animals were not cared for in an humane way which I already stated. However, yes, you can help some people so they don't recreate this situation. Dagmar is one example. I'm sure there are others. PCA Rescue could probably knows of other examples.*


Pluto, your response is a perfect example of a strawman argument. I certainly hope that you're not trying to insinuate that I condone the mistreatment, neglect or abuse of animals because if you are, you're barking up the wrong tree, pardner.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 has position X.
Person 2 disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
Person 2 attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.


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## Tuomas

It is clear that this breeder haven't been taking care of her dogs properly. This doesn't change the fact that loss of diversity is a threat to standard poodles (and most other breeds). The facebook page of Forget Me Not animal shelter contains the following text:

_"If we get the Spoos (love that term), *we will have a spay/neuter frenzy* for the adults and then get them on their way to new lives as quickly as possible. "_

I hope that someone with experience and authority could check the pedigrees and health information of these dogs and if the lines seem to be worth preserving would contact the shelter and recommend that most promising dogs would not be neutered and would go to people willing to preserve the lines.


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## Fluffyspoos

Tuomas said:


> It is clear that this breeder haven't been taking care of her dogs properly. This doesn't change the fact that loss of diversity is a threat to standard poodles (and most other breeds). The facebook page of Forget Me Not animal shelter contains the following text:
> 
> _"If we get the Spoos (love that term), *we will have a spay/neuter frenzy* for the adults and then get them on their way to new lives as quickly as possible. "_
> 
> I hope that someone with experience and authority could check the pedigrees and health information of these dogs and if the lines seem to be worth preserving would contact the shelter and recommend that most promising dogs would not be neutered and would go to people willing to preserve the lines.


Poodles are one of the most popular breed, this is not a seizure on a Barbet breeder, or Tibetan Mastiff breeder, these are standard poodles and there are a TON out there. I don't believe it would be a loss in the gene pool, I believe these dogs deserve loving pet homes, not homes that would continue to use them for breeding.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

My opinion is the loss of these dogs in the gene pool would be an absolute shame. Darla might be going through some obvious issues, and her dogs have been neglected terribly, but this woman has done some remarkable research and she has worked toward bringing back lines that have nearly disappeared and trying to bring some diversity back to the mix. 

And Dagmar...thank you for your compassion.


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## Pluto

Poodlecat, I was not arguing with you. I was specifically addressing the concept that preservation of genetic diversity in a breed could be a greater loss then the health and well being of individual dogs, and how the preservaton of a breed can be used as an excuse to do great harm to individual dogs. Apparently I was unclear as to what I was responding too and I apologize.


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## Tuomas

Fluffyspoos said:


> Poodles are one of the most popular breed, this is not a seizure on a Barbet breeder, or Tibetan Mastiff breeder, these are standard poodles and there are a TON out there. I don't believe it would be a loss in the gene pool, I believe these dogs deserve loving pet homes, not homes that would continue to use them for breeding.


There are lots of breeds with worse situation than standard poodles but will they exist 30 years in the future? Even though the registration numbers are quite high the genetic diversity isn't so great because of the overuse of Wycliffe founders, Eaton Affirmed and other overly popular dogs.

I don't know the pedigrees or other details of these particular dogs but in principle preserving lines with unusual ancestors could slightly decrease the weight of earlier overused dogs in the breed's gene pool.


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## Dagmar

*A ton of poodles*

QUOTE: Originally posted by *Fluffyspoos*
_Poodles are one of the most popular breed, this is not a seizure on a Barbet breeder, or Tibetan Mastiff breeder, these are standard poodles and there are a TON out there. I don't believe it would be a loss in the gene pool, I believe these dogs deserve loving pet homes, not homes that would continue to use them for breeding.]
_
Yes there are a TON of badly bred, over line bred, bred lines that have too many prettys bred over and over and because of this breeding to pretty and popular we have dogs that are dying too soon because very few breeders pay attention to the pedigree health history of the dogs they breed. "Oh, look how pretty that one is! And breed with that pretty bitch we will such beautiful puppies!" Yes beautiful puppies that in 6, 7, 8 years will die from inbred cancer or heart issues or suffer from that Addison's skin thing. We must stop breeding after breeding back to lines that are sick! How smart is it to breed knowing that the parents are carriers? You say you have the poodles best interest to heart. No I think you have some fantasy LaLa about being a champion for dogs right while actions create a health timebomb that kills and maims these wonderful dogs before their time is up.
We must be do right to future dogs and future pudel lovers. What good to have pretty that in end will kill breed and only memory will remain of what was once a great dog. 
Yes dogs deserve loving homes. I don't advocate cranking out puppies. An intelligent, careful occasional breeding to improve genetics is wiser choice. Wiser for dog, wiser for breed. If I weren't an old man I would do smart breeding. 
I don't desire pretty over healthy. None of us should. When people breed for pretty, it not for dogs its for them. Its like having pretty handbag or Jimmy choo shoes. The dogs are not accessories. It is *our* duty to conserve and preserve. Lets be rational with the mind and not stupid with the heart.


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## Maximuspoodle

*Neglect? No criminal abuse*

ArreauStandardPoodle, Darla's poodles were more than neglected. She is being charged with mulitple counts of animal cruelty. As a professional that frequently does research, I don't sit on my A$$ in front of the computer while my dogs are suffering in sweltering heat weighed down with feces infested coats. I would not be flinging Ol Roy in the dirt and having them drink from contaminated water while I poured through the genetic background of long dead dogs. I would not chain a nursing mother to a barn surrounded by filth, and there is more I promise you and it will all come out. 
It baffles me that anyone can admire the work she produced when it is clear that her method was barbaric and inhumane. The outdoor conditions in Republic are harsh and these dogs lived huddled under boxes in freezing cold and sweltering heat. I'm in the medical field so I can appreciate the diversity argument but the price that many many dogs paid for her to achieve her goals is just unacceptable. In human research we are not allowed to design studies that would knowingly harm the subjects. Whatever genetic contributions that were made by Yadda in her backyard of horrors came at a great price.


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## Countryboy

Maximuspoodle said:


> As a professional that frequently does research, I don't sit on my A$$ in front of the computer while my dogs are suffering in sweltering heat weighed down with feces infested coats. I would not be flinging Ol Roy in the dirt and having them drink from contaminated water while I poured through the genetic background of long dead dogs. I would not chain a nursing mother to a barn surrounded by filth, and there is more I promise you and it will all come out.


That is rational thinking, Maximus. But there u have the advantage over Yadda. She is not, and cannot be, rational.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If you are in the medical field then you should know that if someone is mentally ill, often times they have no idea how bad things have gotten. They do not have the ability to rationalize that what is going on is not right or get their priorities in order. I can empathize because I have social anxiety disorder and two phobias which at times have been absolutely debilitating. I am fortunate that my disabilities only affect my ability to go out in public and for me, the dogs have been my saving grace.

I am in no way excusing what has happened, but I do have compassion for a sick human being who is clearly out of touch with reality. 

We have a friend who is severely mentally ill. There are days I would take immense pleasure in slapping her silly, but I know the things she says and does are not things she has control over. If her Doctors are monkeying with her meds, she is going to relapse and the people who care about her just have to brace themselves and get ready for a rocky few weeks. But this woman lives in a city, not completely remotely, and has a husband who can alert her Doctors to changes in her behaviour and get her help. If someone lives in complete physical isolation from other human beings, with nobody around to say "HEY...wait a minute. Something is not right here", if they are mentally ill, how are they to know their behaviour is not right. When someone with mental illness is in crisis with nobody to help them through it...I had hoped with all of the problems people in great numbers face today, that others were beginning to see the light, but apparently mental illness still carries a huge stigma, and some people are just too uncomfortable to try to understand it.

What her dogs have gone through is terrible, but imagine what it is like living inside her head. A little compassion for the human being would be nice.


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## liljaker

I will chime in here, though, in that if you do some checking, she had plenty plenty of time on the internet, chat boards, Yahoo groups, and other postings.........so if she had time for that..... not my opinion -- just facts.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

liljaker said:


> I will chime in here, though, in that if you do some checking, she had plenty plenty of time on the internet, chat boards, Yahoo groups, and other postings.........so if she had time for that..... not my opinion -- just facts.


And so because she had time for this she had time to know she was mentally ill? It would be nice if it worked this way, but it doesn't.


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## Keithsomething

BS!!!!

All of you who are basically defending this woman in a round about way have one of the most misconstrued view points I have ever seen in my LIFE! 

DON'T SPAY THESE DOGS?!?! WTF ARE YOU THINKING?! The bitch had a litter of puppies while she was CHAINED in a barn. And all the greeders out there salivating and biting at the chomp waiting to get first dibs at these "Diverse pedigrees" get your own sh*t together before you try and comment on someone else...

I don't give a f*ck if shes ill or not! She does NOT deserve to get these dogs back and I plan on getting her name out there so everyone knows what she has done to these dogs and the ones the Poodle resuce tried saving a year ago -.-
HOW we can sit here and say oh well...she might have been ill is beyond REASON! This woman CHOSE to neglect her dogs by not taking care of them properly...shes been on this forum saying that she lets her dogs roam...well ya know roaming isn't awful but when you aren't there to even pay attention to INTACT animals you're a disgrace!


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## Keithsomething

no cherie...you're reading what you WANT to read.

Liljaker makes a good point, you have enough time to sit in front of a computer screen and type PAGES of crap to flood the internet with (so people with effed up intentions can flock to you ;D) then you have time to interact with your dogs...or take them for a walk so they don't have to live in that state...or only enjoy a 20x20run...


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## liljaker

I also believe there are many people who really are mentally ill, there are people who claim to be mentally ill (and are not), and many people who are not mentally ill. I strongly believe, however, that when the mental condition has the potential of clouding rational decisions thereby causing harm to other creatures or people, that's another issue. Especially a breeder, and who is going to speak for the dogs here? I am about the most compassionate person you will ever meet -- but don't get me going on whether those same people should be allowed to run a day care for young children, or be in business as a breeder, or be in some other animal business. I have read enough of the online posts by that particular breeder (and I use that loosely) that I hope she never gets to be back in the Poodle Business.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Keithsomething said:


> no cherie...you're reading what you WANT to read.
> 
> Liljaker makes a good point, you have enough time to sit in front of a computer screen and type PAGES of crap to flood the internet with (so people with effed up intentions can flock to you ;D) then you have time to interact with your dogs...or take them for a walk so they don't have to live in that state...or only enjoy a 20x20run...


Keith...you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I hope and pray you never go through a mental health crisis and find yourself persecuted like this. What these dogs suffered is tragic, but there is a sick human being involved here too!


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## Countryboy

I totally agree that the dogs should be taken away. *But I'm still undecided abt the 'frenzy' of spay and neuter.*

Taking the dogs away will probably destroy everything that she lives for. And maybe destroy her too. 

But it might be the only thing that will bring her to a place where she finally realizes that she needs professional help.


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## Maximuspoodle

*???*

The situation in Darla's puppy mill has been going on for years. Many people have been aware of it, reached out to help and she refused. During this time she worked as a licensed practical nurse. I think that we all have a hard time believing that there are people with no moral compass, that are driven by profit and can justify just about anything to explain their behavior. If Darla or anyone for that matter now wants to use mental illness as an excuse/explaination for her behavior that is their choice. 
I work with people that suffer from mental illness and they take responsibility and manage it. They make a contribution to society and reach out to help others. While I agree that we should be compassionate to all that suffer from any mental or physical limitation, that does not mean that people with mental illness walk the face of the earth with no moral compass. People with mental illness are perfectly capable of knowing right from wrong, good from bad. Only the most ill, suffering from hallucinations and unable to orientate to date and place are unable to acknowledge suffering or pain. Whatever state of mind Darla/Yadda was or currently is in I doubt that she was so mentally disabled that she was not aware that her animals were suffering horribly and was incapable of accepting the help that was so freely and frequently offered. 
To explain Yaddas long pattern of abuse and neglect of animals in her care as what could reasonably be expected by someone with mental illness is to do a disservice to those that struggle daily to manage their disease. I do think that someone who is capable of this kind of behavior should probably be assessed for mental illness but I also am willing to consider that her moral composition is just lacking and that allows her to be capable of cruelty to animals on a scale that society agrees is unacceptable


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## lily cd re

In the movie "The Apostle" Robert Duvall's character seems to lose everything to be redeemed, but then he really loses everything when his true identity is revealed. Only after this is he truly redeemed. I have seen many people struggle with all sorts of problems. Clearly there is lots to struggle with here.

Let us all hope that Darla gets to see a path to a healthier life for herself. Let us all hope that her dogs are kept safe and healthy. Let us all hope that cool heads prevail in helping to make sure that the outcomes are as good as possible for all concerned.


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## Countryboy

Maximuspoodle said:


> I work with people that suffer from mental illness


I'm gonna haf'ta call yr bluff, Maximus. If u indeed worked in any knowledgeable position with people like this u would not be calling their illness 'mental'.


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## Maximuspoodle

*@ country boy*

I am an ICU nurse with over 20yrs experience. I have worked in ICU's in three countries. Some of my colleagues past and present suffer from depression, anxiety disorder, eating disorders, and have struggled with drug and alcohol abuse. My clients/patients have a variety of disorders and come from all walks of life, homeless to accomplished professionals. I have also won awards for patient advocacy.


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## Countryboy

Then u do have some background in the field. Improper use of terminology is generally a dead give-away of a presumptuous amateur. My apologies.

But u will be working only with those who have chosen, or been forced, to be treated by professionals. Once your people are 'on their meds' they are then *able* to be co-operative. 'Til that treatment is administered, 'til u see them, they cannot, like 'not physically allowed to'... by their own body, be co-operative.


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## PaddleAddict

Countryboy said:


> Then u do have some background in the field. Improper use of terminology is generally a dead give-away of a presumptuous amateur. My apologies.
> 
> But u will be working only with those who have chosen, or been forced, to be treated by professionals. Once your people are 'on their meds' they are then *able* to be co-operative. 'Til that treatment is administered, 'til u see them, they cannot, like 'not physically allowed to'... by their own body, be co-operative.


Country Boy, I would like to call you out for taking this thread off topic... First, there is no reason to accuse another forum member of lying about her profession and second, please stop this off topic and PERSONAL line of questioning that is not relevant to the subject under discussion in this thread.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I don't find this off topic at all....


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## Administrator

Hey everyone,

I'm responding to the number of of reported posts in this thread. I want to remind all of you that YOU are responsible for what you post here and that pretty much means that it will be viewable by anyone on the internet. 

I can see that many of you are emotionally worked up by this story as it reflects in your posting but before you post anything further, no matter how emotionally charged you are right now, it is NOT an excuse for you to behave in a manner counter to the rules of PF. Also keep in mind, since many of you alluded to, that this is a matter now involving legal authorities so I would advise that unless you have first-hand experience with this situation and/or the person involved in this matter related to the situation, you should be extremely cautious with speculation and posting anything that may result in defamation where the law is concerned. It's one thing to post your opinion on the matter but if you're going to start stating facts, you better be able to back them up if someone comes knocking.


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## petitpie

Where were all of the people with 20/20 hindsight over a year ago?


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## PaddleAddict

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I don't find this off topic at all....


Well I do. Country Boy first accuses Maximuspoodle of lying about her profession. Rude and uncalled for, and NOT related to this discussion. Then he continues to discuss her profession and what she does and does not have experience with. Totally irrelevant and definitely rude!


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## Keithsomething

Trying to convince her to give her dogs to the PCA rescue when she contacted them -.-

Also her dogs are no more diverse in their pedigree than anything any other BYBis breeding with! These dogs need spayed and placed in loving homes where they don't have to scavenge for food


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## petitpie

An "all or nothing approach" is hardly the right solution for much of anything.


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## Countryboy

Keithsomething said:


> Trying to convince her to give her dogs to the PCA rescue when she contacted them -.-


We all know that shelters use standard operating procedures. Bath, groom, feed, and spay or neuter. And if u've had any dealings with most rescues and shelters u may know that they are uncompromising. It was probably 'all the dogs or none'. 

Perhaps there could have been a solution in the past if there was more cooperation??? I dunno really...

eta... lol, p/p


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## Keithsomething

Oh you're right CB it was all or nothing she wanted to dump all the dogs she wasn't breeding, because she had to preserve the great diverse blood lines...and allow them to go un groomed and not taken care of

Also good point Yung, we're all adults! sue away :3 that's what my parents attorney told me to tell a Canadian breeder recently


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree the dogs need to be rehomed and need to have a chance at a normal, happy go lucky life. I do wish some of them could be spared from being spayed/neutered and researched further to see if they might help the future of our breed. These particular dogs would need to go to a very specialized type of breeder who would be sure to use them to the absolute benefit of the breed.


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## petitpie

Yes, Keith......and "all or nothing" for Poodle Rescue with the poor dogs caught in the middle of human folly, as usual.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

petitpie said:


> Where were all of the people with 20/20 hindsight over a year ago?[/Q
> 
> HA! Exactly what I was wondering. If you knew all this stuff was going on, did you call the authorities? Was anything done years ago when there were so many people in the know about Darla's "puppy mill"?


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## CT Girl

I have a family member who suffers from mental health issues. This kind, caring man went through a period where he was very cruel to loved ones and to himself living in an apartment that could appear on the show hoarders. We begged for help from his doctors to no avail. They are not allowed by the legal system to intervine unless the person is a danger to himself or others. You can't imagine the suffering the family went through watching him self destruct and this went on for almost two years. Finally something happened that allowed us to have him committed for three days. They discovered his medicine for bipolar disorder was all out of whack which put him on this spiral and then he stopped taking it at all. By the end of three days they had modified his medicine enough to realize he was acting crazy and he was able to begin to regain his true sweet self again. When he was off right and wrong was not a meaningful concept to him, he was above it. I am not making excuses for Yadda or the condition of her dogs and I would not return the dogs to her. I acknowledge the possibility that she is a person without conscience running a puppy mill but I do think is far more likely she is sick and needs help. People can do despicable things and not be monsters. It sounds like some of you have been fortunate not to see up close the devastation mental illness can bring so this might not make sense to you. I would rather err on the side of compassion for both the dogs and Yadda. I don't know if her breeding lines are that significant, it sounds like they may be. I would hate to see diversity lost if they are just because that is the normal shelter policy.


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## PaddleAddict

petitpie said:


> Yes, Keith......and "all or nothing" for Poodle Rescue with the poor dogs caught in the middle of human folly, as usual.


You know what? I really do not agree with this sentiment at all. 

Are you telling me that Poodle Rescue is supposed to take some of the neglected dogs, but leave the rest so Yadda can continue breeding and keeping animals in conditions such as we read about online? This is not the way rescues function, I am sorry. And sadly, sometimes you cannot step in to seize the dogs until it because "bad enough." I am sure you have all seen this played out numerous times online and on TV.

I realize that many forum members here formed personal attachments to Yadda, but how does that make you lose sight of the dogs? The dogs are what is important here. 

Seriously, a bitch with a litter of pups tied up in a barn, matted and filthy. Did you look at these photos? How is this in any way OK? Can you picture your own poodle in this situation? Consider the mental status of these poodles, neglected and living outside. You know that providing food and some shelter is not enough for a poodle. The whole situation makes me just sick.

I don't care about diverse bloodlines or mental health status or anything other than the condition of those poor animals. If saving those dogs and getting them into a better situation means spaying and neutering them ALL then so be it! The poodle breed will not suffer irreversible damage because these few dogs are taken out of the gene pool.


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## petitpie

I'm not advocating for anything except the dogs, but there are usually degrees of a situation going down a slippery slope. Time and neglect by Poodle Rescue and Yadda because of failure to compromise did not improve the dogs' lives. Groups forcing solutions on individuals cannot really "do" much of anything and only serves to anger the individual into an "all or nothing" position. She asked for help; why not have given her the help she wanted and go from there. She may have been able to recover to everyone's tentative satisfaction, or not. At least it wouldn't have been an all or nothing decision. The situation could then be to monitoring.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

PaddleAddict said:


> You know what? I really do not agree with this sentiment at all.
> 
> Are you telling me that Poodle Rescue is supposed to take some of the neglected dogs, but leave the rest so Yadda can continue breeding and keeping animals in conditions such as we read about online? This is not the way rescues function, I am sorry. And sadly, sometimes you cannot step in to seize the dogs until it because "bad enough." I am sure you have all seen this played out numerous times online and on TV.
> 
> I realize that many forum members here formed personal attachments to Yadda, but how does that make you lose sight of the dogs? The dogs are what is important here.
> 
> Seriously, a bitch with a litter of pups tied up in a barn, matted and filthy. Did you look at these photos? How is this in any way OK? Can you picture your own poodle in this situation? Consider the mental status of these poodles, neglected and living outside. You know that providing food and some shelter is not enough for a poodle. The whole situation makes me just sick.
> 
> I don't care about diverse bloodlines or mental health status or anything other than the condition of those poor animals. If saving those dogs and getting them into a better situation means spaying and neutering them ALL then so be it! The poodle breed will not suffer irreversible damage because these few dogs are taken out of the gene pool.


I have not seen one single post where ANYONE said the conditions these dogs were living in was in any way okay!


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## petitpie

If the dogs were horribly neglected years ago, then why wait? Respectfully......

Poodle Rescue had it's chance to help the dogs before.......


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## Tuomas

Keithsomething said:


> ...
> Also her dogs are no more diverse in their pedigree than anything any other BYBis breeding with!
> ...


I haven't researched Yadda poodles very througly. For curiosity's sake I looked at PHR and checked pedigree of a litter from 2011. The Wycliffe% was about 21%, 10 generation COI was 1,5%. I didn't found any Eaton Affirmed in 10 generation pedigree and most of the dogs in last 4 generations seemed to be at most moderately used. 10 generation pedigree contained more than 800 unique names. 15 generation pedigree contained almost 4000 unique names. *Are you sure about your statement?*

Of course these quickly searched numbers are only partial measurement of diversity and value of individuals to the gene pool but they were at least easily available information. 

And before somebody accuses me of accepting poor treatment of breeding dogs,* I don't accept it*. I just can't see how neutering every dog would undo what has been done or how preserving some of the lines would prevent the dogs from having a good life in the future.


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## Dagmar

*Slow down*

There is too much hate on these pages. Where there is this much hate, there is no love and without love there is no compassion and without compassion there is no humanity and when there is no humanity it is a very dark place we go. Bonhofer even while being led to the gallows by the Nazi's still had compassion for them. Can we do any less?
Many of you do not know what mental illness and depression can do to you. Sometimes a TV or a computer can be the only means of rest. For those of you blessed by always being stable and warm, good on you, but for those who understand the depths, thank you.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dagmar said:


> There is too much hate on these pages. Where there is this much hate, there is no love and without love there is no compassion and without compassion there is no humanity and when there is no humanity it is a very dark place we go. Bonhofer even while being led to the gallows by the Nazi's still had compassion for them. Can we do any less?
> Many of you do not know what mental illness and depression can do to you. Sometimes a TV or a computer can be the only means of rest. For those of you blessed by always being stable and warm, good on you, but for those who understand the depths, thank you.


AMEN Dagmar! Thank you!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tuomas said:


> I haven't researched Yadda poodles very througly. For curiosity's sake I looked at PHR and checked pedigree of a litter from 2011. The Wycliffe% was about 21%, 10 generation COI was 1,5%. I didn't found any Eaton Affirmed in 10 generation pedigree and most of the dogs in last 4 generations seemed to be at most moderately used. 10 generation pedigree contained more than 800 unique names. 15 generation pedigree contained almost 4000 unique names. *Are you sure about your statement?*
> 
> Of course these quickly searched numbers are only partial measurement of diversity and value of individuals to the gene pool but they were at least easily available information.
> 
> And before somebody accuses me of accepting poor treatment of breeding dogs,* I don't accept it*. I just can't see how neutering every dog would undo what has been done or how preserving some of the lines would prevent the dogs from having a good life in the future.


Exactly!


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## Pluto

Nevermind.


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## Poodlecat

PaddleAddict said:


> Are you telling me that Poodle Rescue is supposed to take some of the neglected dogs, but leave the rest so Yadda can continue breeding and keeping animals in conditions such as we read about online?
> 
> *Never, ever saw anyone suggest or imply that this on this thread anywhere. This is another "strawman argument" which states something that no one said and then you argue against it. "A straw man, is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.*
> 
> I realize that many forum members here formed personal attachments to Yadda, but how does that make you lose sight of the dogs? The dogs are what is important here.
> *Not sure who is personally attached or not to Yadda and that really doesn't enter into the discussion. Dogs are important but humans are important too. Especially, since humans can create or not create these situations, wouldn't you want humans to get the help they need so they create these conditions for dogs again, if at all possible?*
> 
> Seriously, a bitch with a litter of pups tied up in a barn, matted and filthy. Did you look at these photos? How is this in any way OK? Can you picture your own poodle in this situation? Consider the mental status of these poodles, neglected and living outside. You know that providing food and some shelter is not enough for a poodle. The whole situation makes me just sick.
> *Yes- looked at photos. No - it's definitely not ok. Never - terrible thought of my precious babies out in those conditions. But again no one here is defending Darla's actions..another strawman argument. Some are advocating to preserve any unique poodle genetics and express they'd like Yadda to get the help she needs which is ultimately her decision to receive. *
> 
> I don't care about diverse bloodlines or mental health status or anything other than the condition of those poor animals. If saving those dogs and getting them into a better situation means spaying and neutering them ALL then so be it! The poodle breed will not suffer irreversible damage because these few dogs are taken out of the gene pool.


*That's your opinion which, of course, you're entitled to...Please be sure to read The Standard Poodle Project ...it might change your opinion...and then again maybe not...but it's worth a shot. Others of us are thinking more longterm of what is best for ALL of the poor Standard Poodles' situation healthwise, as well as, preventing this tragic situation being created again with Yadda or others in the future. And as someone else already mentioned, not all the poodles are in such condition that they cannot have happy, productive lives ongoing INSIDE a loving home. *


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## papoodles

My only comment on this sad situation was before I knew that these dogs belonged to Yadda- I wrote”Heartbreaking story, Keith, what could have happened to bring that breeder so low?? “
I had no idea who it could be, but assumed it had to be someone not very active on the forum, and not someone that I hold in such high esteem.
Very shortly after that post, a breeder friend of mine to whom I had forwarded the PF discussion on hip dysplasia sent me a note,and the link to the rescue story, saying that the ‘breeder’ involved was the person who had posted that discussion. I still didn’t get it, so I went back to see who else was involved with that thread..It could not be Yadda!
When it finally dawned on me that it was indeed, Darla, I near cried..and I think I felt that way because Darla always seemed the voice of reason, and calm,and she taught me so much about the genetic diversity of poodles,and always, always appeared to put the health and welfare of these beautiful dogs above her own.. I loved how she played devil’s advocate, I loved how very civil she was when discussions became heated, and I loved that her mission was to educate as many people as possible on the health issues facing our poodles. I still admire that. 
I’ve not said a word since then, because at first I was as outraged as many of the other posters as what had ben allowed to happen to her dogs and I was sad and disappointed that a trust had been broken. Those dogs depended on Darla for their welfare, both physically and emotionally, and from previous posts, I understood that these dogs were the sole emotional support in her solitary life on the mountain. Clearly, something went catastrophically wrong up on that mountain and now these dogs were suffering along with Darla. 
Unless someone intervened, their suffering would continue without end- and that is wrong. We have to make life good for them again.
It is not my place to judge Darla, I don’t have to walk in her shoes, and I don’t know her pain. Anger solves nothing. I am sure that the repercussions for her will be severe.For me, it is better feel to compassion all the suffering- of man and beast. I wish her well.


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## Maximuspoodle

*step up peeps*

Ok Arreau and all you others who feel that Darla's years of 'hard work' establishing genetic diversity are going to hell and there will be a significant negative impact on the breed if these animals are neutered and rehomed as pets here you go... Contact PCA poodle rescue and Kim at the shelter. Offer up your credentials and make your case for taking what you to consider to be the best dog(s) in the crop. It should be relatively easy for you to decide what dog(s) you want because you are just looking at the numbers, so current physical condition (horrible teeth and infected ears?) and current temperament won't have to factor in. Make it clear you are willing to take on all said dog(s) medical expenses. From my personal experience despite fantastic genes dogs from neglect/abuse situations often have horrible ear issues, bad teeth, GI issues, skin issues and parasites. But they have good genes so it is worth the $$$$ right? 

Now you may end up with one or more very unsocialized dogs, depending on how ambitious and dedicated you are to preserving all Darla's hard work. No worries! If you are an experienced handler you can spend hours getting the dog(s) used being groomed. The dog(s) may have issues with aggression towards people and or other dogs but nothing that $$$$ and a muzzle can't handle. Hopefully with time and training you can get rid of the muzzle if that is necessary. They may have significant food aggression but if you don't plan on free feeding or have toddlers who may put a hand near a food bowl you can manage that. Make sure that your house insurance policy includes coverage for injuries to people on your property. Oh and plan on spending allot of time on training house manners, that is if you plan on allowing access.

Now the dog(s) may be so damaged from a life of depravation and neglect/abuse that he may not appear to be very appreciative of your efforts. You may get bitten and you might not be able to take the them anywhere in public but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you have preserved diversity!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Maximuspoodle said:


> Ok Arreau and all you others who feel that Darla's years of 'hard work' establishing genetic diversity are going to hell and there will be a significant negative impact on the breed if these animals are neutered and rehomed as pets here you go... Contact PCA poodle rescue and Kim at the shelter. Offer up your credentials and make your case for taking what you to consider to be the best dog(s) in the crop. It should be relatively easy for you to decide what dog(s) you want because you are just looking at the numbers, so current physical condition (horrible teeth and infected ears?) and current temperament won't have to factor in. Make it clear you are willing to take on all said dog(s) medical expenses. From my personal experience despite fantastic genes dogs from neglect/abuse situations often have horrible ear issues, bad teeth, GI issues, skin issues and parasites. But they have good genes so it is worth the $$$$ right?
> 
> Now you may end up with one or more very unsocialized dogs, depending on how ambitious and dedicated you are to preserving all Darla's hard work. No worries! If you are an experienced handler you can spend hours getting the dog(s) used being groomed. The dog(s) may have issues with aggression towards people and or other dogs but nothing that $$$$ and a muzzle can't handle. Hopefully with time and training you can get rid of the muzzle if that is necessary. They may have significant food aggression but if you don't plan on free feeding or have toddlers who may put a hand near a food bowl you can manage that. Make sure that your house insurance policy includes coverage for injuries to people on your property. Oh and plan on spending allot of time on training house manners, that is if you plan on allowing access.
> 
> Now the dog(s) may be so damaged from a life of depravation and neglect/abuse that he may not appear to be very appreciative of your efforts. You may get bitten and you might not be able to take the them anywhere in public but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you have preserved diversity!


Well to begin with, I am fairly certain that because I live in Canada I would not be a consideration for one of these dogs. And I am sure there will be rehab work involved with some of these dogs, but from what I am seeing on FB, most of the dogs are adjusting beautifully to their new situations. 

I would not personally even attempt to get one of these dogs, not because it would not be a remarkable opportunity, but more because there would be people, like some of the members here, who would love to slap the "greeder" label on me and tell stories of how I did it for me own benefit. But I sincerely hope there are some old time American breeders out there who will attempt to get some of these dogs, do whatever rehabilitation is necessary and carry on with what Darla was attempting to do with the diversity she has discovered.

All of this is moot right now anyway. Until a court decides what is going to happen to these dear souls, nobody is entitled to try to own any of them.


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## PaddleAddict

You know, I am the first to admit that I don't know much about pedigrees or breeding. However, I find it utterly absurd that some people seem to think these dogs are the Holy Grail of poodles, and without their genes standard poodles will be doomed. 

I would like to know how many people posting here know Darla personally. PERSONALLY, as in, you have met her in person and been to her house. I certainly don't. And I am guessing very few if none of you at all know her personally. And yet here everyone is speculating on her state of mind, speculating on whether she suffers from mental illness (does anyone actually know this is true?), lambasting others for not having more compassion for her supposed mental illness, calling people liars for not referring to mental illness in the appropriate way, telling people they have no compassion for the mentally ill, speculating on the supposed irreplaceable value of Darla's poodles (do these poodles not have relatives? There are your genes right there), blaming rescue groups for not acting fast enough or not meeting Darla in the middle by taking some dogs off her hands, it just goes on and on and on.

This thread is becoming utterly ridiculous! 

I honestly don't care about all those details. I don't care to speculate about things we do not know. All I care about are those horrific images I saw of those poor dogs. Those poodles deserve more. It is not their fault they have been neglected. They did not ask for this. They don't understand the reasons why.

Those poodles deserve to be clean, comfortable, warm, fed, and living inside with people who love them. That is all that I care about.


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## Countryboy

It was good to get things sorted out with u, Maximus. 

And just to say that I've already e-mailed Kim to let her know that there may be grounds for handling these dogs in slightly different way than is the norm for shelters and rescues. 

Poodle genetics qualifications??? Not from me! lol But it seems that there are others in here that would have them. And yrs is a good point. We certainly should be prepared to make that case. 

Also . . for me, and other dog people, and many breeders that I know, the answer to all your questions would be a big, fat YES. If the figures that Dagmar quickly pulled together are indicative, it would be yes to medical bills, yes to socialization, yes to transport, yes to donations. 

In the goal of preserving diversity, any or all of these issues would be worth dealing with.


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## Carley's Mom

Amen PA, amen amen amen!


----------



## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> I don't care to speculate about things we do not know.


Neither am I speculating abt things I don't know. In a small way, I am recounting some personal experiences. Cherie and I are not just guessing....


----------



## Poodlecat

Maximuspoodle said:


> Ok Arreau and all you others who feel that Darla's years of 'hard work' establishing genetic diversity are going to hell and there will be a significant negative impact on the breed if these animals are neutered and rehomed as pets here you go... Contact PCA poodle rescue and Kim at the shelter. Offer up your credentials and make your case for taking what you to consider to be the best dog(s) in the crop.
> 
> *I don't want one but hopefully some with knowledge of poodle genetics will be willing to take them in. *
> 
> It should be relatively easy for you to decide what dog(s) you want because you are just looking at the numbers, so current physical condition (horrible teeth and infected ears?) and current temperament won't have to factor in.
> *Uhoh! Another strawman argument. No one said temperament or misaligned teeth would not factor any a breeding decision. Imagination, much? Infected ears can be doctored back to health.
> *
> Make it clear you are willing to take on all said dog(s) medical expenses. From my personal experience despite fantastic genes dogs from neglect/abuse situations often have horrible ear issues, bad teeth, GI issues, skin issues and parasites. But they have good genes so it is worth the $$$$ right?
> 
> Now you may end up with one or more very unsocialized dogs, depending on how ambitious and dedicated you are to preserving all Darla's hard work. No worries! If you are an experienced handler you can spend hours getting the dog(s) used being groomed. The dog(s) may have issues with aggression towards people and or other dogs but nothing that $$$$ and a muzzle can't handle. Hopefully with time and training you can get rid of the muzzle if that is necessary. They may have significant food aggression but if you don't plan on free feeding or have toddlers who may put a hand near a food bowl you can manage that. Make sure that your house insurance policy includes coverage for injuries to people on your property. Oh and plan on spending allot of time on training house manners, that is if you plan on allowing access.
> 
> Now the dog(s) may be so damaged from a life of depravation and neglect/abuse that he may not appear to be very appreciative of your efforts. You may get bitten and you might not be able to take the them anywhere in public but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you have preserved diversity!


*Not sure who ultimately decides the condition/temperament of the dog and who can be rehabilitated or not, but I'd guess the rescue involved, perhaps? Except for a few dogs from the very little I saw the online rescue site, most or all are going to live and incur those expenses anyway. Some dogs seem to be quite appreciative of the care they're receiving...others not ready to trust. Surely, you don't want them all put down, do you?*


----------



## Maximuspoodle

*speed of light...*

Wow Arreau that was a lightening fast no! With more that one excuse too! I did not expect anything else. 
But you and your gene peeps with all your passion and conviction can get together a proposal, send it out to the appropriate people and make the offer to take in these dogs. You of course not being in a position to actually do any of the hands on work can bankroll the project, organize...the needs are endless. Go get em! I will be anxiously waiting to see who in the name of diversity is willing to actually step up physically and financially to fund the cause.


----------



## Tuomas

Maximuspoodle said:


> Ok Arreau and all you others who feel that Darla's years of 'hard work' establishing genetic diversity are going to hell and there will be a significant negative impact on the breed if these animals are neutered and rehomed as pets here you go... Contact PCA poodle rescue and Kim at the shelter. Offer up your credentials and make your case for taking what you to consider to be the best dog(s) in the crop. It should be relatively easy for you to decide what dog(s) you want because you are just looking at the numbers, so current physical condition (horrible teeth and infected ears?) and current temperament won't have to factor in. Make it clear you are willing to take on all said dog(s) medical expenses. From my personal experience despite fantastic genes dogs from neglect/abuse situations often have horrible ear issues, bad teeth, GI issues, skin issues and parasites. But they have good genes so it is worth the $$$$ right?
> 
> Now you may end up with one or more very unsocialized dogs, depending on how ambitious and dedicated you are to preserving all Darla's hard work. No worries! If you are an experienced handler you can spend hours getting the dog(s) used being groomed. The dog(s) may have issues with aggression towards people and or other dogs but nothing that $$$$ and a muzzle can't handle. Hopefully with time and training you can get rid of the muzzle if that is necessary. They may have significant food aggression but if you don't plan on free feeding or have toddlers who may put a hand near a food bowl you can manage that. Make sure that your house insurance policy includes coverage for injuries to people on your property. Oh and plan on spending allot of time on training house manners, that is if you plan on allowing access.
> 
> Now the dog(s) may be so damaged from a life of depravation and neglect/abuse that he may not appear to be very appreciative of your efforts. You may get bitten and you might not be able to take the them anywhere in public but you will have the satisfaction of knowing that you have preserved diversity!


You sound quite angry towards us that care about diversity. Anyway I live in another continent and one dog is enough for me. The potential problems you mentioned are possible also if the dogs are neutered. At least some of those dogs seemed to be socialized.

And if somebody is able to take one of those dogs with intent to preserve the line, he/she would probably make his/her own evaluation of the pedigrees/health/socialization/looks/temperament of the dogs. I don't know if the dogs are microchipped. If not matching the individual with pedigree might be a problem. It is possible that no breeder wants to use these dogs but it surprises me how hostile some posters get when the possibility was mentioned.



PaddleAddict said:


> You know, I am the first to admit that I don't know much about pedigrees or breeding. However, I find it utterly absurd that some people seem to think these dogs are the Holy Grail of poodles, and without their genes standard poodles will be doomed.
> ...


Who has compared them to Holy Grail?


PaddleAddict said:


> ...
> Those poodles deserve to be clean, comfortable, warm, fed, and living inside with people who love them. That is all that I care about.


They surely do deserve that. 

I think the effect of couple of dogs in the breed is limited but lots of little losses of diversity during several generations will combine. I would like to see more people working to protect the future of standard poodles.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Maximuspoodle said:


> Wow Arreau that was a lightening fast no! With more that one excuse too! I did not expect anything else.
> But you and your gene peeps with all your passion and conviction can get together a proposal, send it out to the appropriate people and make the offer to take in these dogs. You of course not being in a position to actually do any of the hands on work can bankroll the project, organize...the needs are endless. Go get em! I will be anxiously waiting to see who in the name of diversity is willing to actually step up physically and financially to fund the cause.


Wow...you are a breath of fresh air!!! I would happily take one or more of these dogs because I am of course a "gene peep" but I have tried to rescue in the past from US based operations, and not only was a Canadian not a consideration, but they wanted the dogs to remain in State. Not an excuse, just the facts, JAK!


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## Fluffyspoos

Countryboy said:


> Taking the dogs away will probably destroy everything that she lives for. And maybe destroy her too.


It doesn't seem like she lives for her dogs at all, she just likes to talk a lot.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

I am in no place to judge Yadda or determine whether or not she should be allowed to keep her dogs or ever breed again. I don't think that vilifying her or expressing hatred is the answer either. This is about the dogs. Regarding the _dogs_, I think that the #1 goal is to get the dogs into loving pet homes. 

I understand the desire to preserve genetic diversity, but haven't these dogs been through enough? Isn't the well-being of the dogs far more important? Don't they deserve a stress free life? 

As far as Darla, if mental illness is in the picture as has been suggested, I hope that she gets treatment. I also believe that she should experience consequences for her unethical treatment of her dogs. And, my personal belief is that everyone deserves compassion, even those who have done things we find unfathomable. However, I believe that every action has a natural consequence. And just as an adult who has a history of child abuse or neglect would not necessarily be a suitable parent or childcare worker, an adult who has a history of animal abuse or neglect would not necessarily be a suitable breeder. Doesn't matter if that person lives for kids, or lives for dogs. 

Of course, I wish the best for both Darla and her dogs. I believe in forgiveness and compassion. I also believe in consequences. JMO.


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## flyingpoodle

Dagmar said:


> QUOTE: Originally posted by *Fluffyspoos*
> _Poodles are one of the most popular breed, this is not a seizure on a Barbet breeder, or Tibetan Mastiff breeder, these are standard poodles and there are a TON out there. I don't believe it would be a loss in the gene pool, I believe these dogs deserve loving pet homes, not homes that would continue to use them for breeding.]
> _
> Yes there are a TON of badly bred, over line bred, bred lines that have too many prettys bred over and over and because of this breeding to pretty and popular we have dogs that are dying too soon because very few breeders pay attention to the pedigree health history of the dogs they breed. "Oh, look how pretty that one is! And breed with that pretty bitch we will such beautiful puppies!" Yes beautiful puppies that in 6, 7, 8 years will die from inbred cancer or heart issues or suffer from that Addison's skin thing. We must stop breeding after breeding back to lines that are sick! How smart is it to breed knowing that the parents are carriers? You say you have the poodles best interest to heart. No I think you have some fantasy LaLa about being a champion for dogs right while actions create a health timebomb that kills and maims these wonderful dogs before their time is up.
> We must be do right to future dogs and future pudel lovers. What good to have pretty that in end will kill breed and only memory will remain of what was once a great dog.
> Yes dogs deserve loving homes. I don't advocate cranking out puppies. An intelligent, careful occasional breeding to improve genetics is wiser choice. Wiser for dog, wiser for breed. If I weren't an old man I would do smart breeding.
> I don't desire pretty over healthy. None of us should. When people breed for pretty, it not for dogs its for them. Its like having pretty handbag or Jimmy choo shoes. The dogs are not accessories. It is *our* duty to conserve and preserve. Lets be rational with the mind and not stupid with the heart.


I'm calling out the possibility here that Dagmar is Darla. The writing style changes radically from the introductory post, and the profile was created sept 25.


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## Kloliver

Kloliver said:


> Hey Everyone:
> 
> In order not to compromise the case we shd probably keep mum & stick to the facts & avoid opinions; try to stick to positive sharing about the shelter helping the dogs, rather than ranting about the conditions or the breeder.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> Here's a heart-warming update. The foster home environment is so very much more appropriate
> 
> Poodle Rescue


 I posted this plea on *PAGE 7* & look where we are now....pg 15+



poodleadm said:


> Hey everyone,
> 
> I'm responding to the number of of reported posts in this thread. I want to remind all of you that YOU are responsible for what you post here and that pretty much means that it will be viewable by anyone on the internet.
> 
> I can see that many of you are emotionally worked up by this story as it reflects in your posting but before you post anything further, no matter how emotionally charged you are right now, it is NOT an excuse for you to behave in a manner counter to the rules of PF. Also keep in mind, since many of you alluded to, that this is a matter now involving legal authorities so I would advise that unless you have first-hand experience with this situation and/or the person involved in this matter related to the situation, you should be extremely cautious with speculation and posting anything that may result in defamation where the law is concerned. It's one thing to post your opinion on the matter but if you're going to start stating facts, you better be able to back them up if someone comes knocking.



Agreed. Let's remember that this is a :dog: forum, not a mental health or legal forum. 

*This from someone directly involved in day to day care of the poodles:*
_"It serves *no one* to waste time on negativity. The courts will do what they will do, and the poodle community will hopefully remember not to enable [her] to continue breeding - "shunning" peacefully can be very powerful."_

HERE IS ANOTHER POSITIVE UPDATE:
http://forgetmenotshelter.org/Poodles/

You go Elton, atta boy!


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## lrkellly

Flyingpoodle.. 

I think the line "Lets be rational with the mind and not stupid with the heart" says it all. I would not trust a person with this attitude towards the heart with my dogs, or any person I cared about. Sadly, many people think this way.

Not going to weigh in on the mental health issue, but this is a really sad, sad, sad thread for a number of reasons.


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## Fluffyspoos

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Not an excuse, just the facts, JAK!


Believe it or not, not everyone that disagrees with you is Jack.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> Believe it or not, not everyone that disagrees with you is Jack.


Pardon me? Have you never heard that term before? Maybe it is a Canadian phrase?? Ummm...no I don't think it is. Pretty sure it came from an American TV show...maybe Different Strokes?


----------



## Keithsomething

first Maximus you're amazing <3

second i completely agree with CM...I don't care whether or not Yadda is sick I'm concerned about the dogs...and to see people questioning whether or not these animals that have been NEGLECTED to the point that the matts are just pelted to them shouldn't be spayed in placed in pets homes disgusts me!!

these animals NEED us to protect them, i don't care if Darla fights but we need to fight just as hard to keep this from happening to ANY more dogs! Why anyone is questioning any of this is just stupid...I'm not villafying her but I'm not about to give her an excuse to say that she was allowed to do this BECAUSE of her illness!!
Someone said it before but I'll say it again...she had/has the capability to take care of these dogs...she chose not too


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## CharismaticMillie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Pardon me? Have you never heard that term before? Maybe it is a Canadian phrase?? Ummm...no I don't think it is. Pretty sure it came from an American TV show...maybe Different Strokes?


Lol. I'm guessing it was the spelling?


----------



## PaddleAddict

flyingpoodle said:


> I'm calling out the possibility here that Dagmar is Darla. The writing style changes radically from the introductory post, and the profile was created sept 25.


I don't know if Dagmar is Darla or a friend of Darla or what, but something VERY fishy is going on here. 

Dagmar's first post was written in such a way that it sounded as if English was not "his" first language, and now the language in Dagmar's posts is very fluid and sounds like English is "his" first language. 

It is so very easy to fool people over the internet, as we have all learned in a big way over the past few days.


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## Poodlemama99

I can really only add that this is the very reason I drove 9 hours one way to see where my Penelope was bred and to meet the breeder and talk to her in person. Otherwise I would never be sure what type of environment my babies came from. I know that a website can be made to look like whatever they want it to be but you can't fake a personal visit. It is the same reason I stop in unannounced at the groomers and the pet sitters when they were boarded and why I would drop into school when the kids were there. 

This situation is so very sad for everyone and most especially those poor poodles. I hope they can find good homes where they can be treated as cherished pets rather than breeding chattel.


Sent from my iPad using PG Free


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## starpoodle

Ah, this is a heartbreaking situation. Those poor poodles.  I hope they all find good homes where they can be given the attention they deserve. Is there a way to help? I would like to if possible.


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## Liafast

Just curious. IF the rescue would release the poodles without being desexed how is anyone going to use them for breeding unless Yadda agrees to 'sign' the dogs with the papers over to someone else. Why would she agree to let someone else breed them.


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## Kloliver

starpoodle said:


> Is there a way to help? I would like to if possible.


Starpoodle et al.....They're accepting monetary & goods in kind donations.

http://www.forgetmenotshelter.org/


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## Countryboy

Liafast said:


> Just curious. IF the rescue would release the poodles without being desexed how is anyone going to use them for breeding unless Yadda agrees to 'sign' the dogs with the papers over to someone else. Why would she agree to let someone else breed them.


If the courts rule against the owner . . a big 'if' . . then ownership of the dogs would be passed to someone other than her... maybe to the shelter. At that point, the court appointed 'owners' should have the power to decide the eventual disposition of the dogs... and what conditions would apply to their disposal. 

But here's me musing... and I would be interested in other opinions on this next part. 

IDK if the intact dam and the intact sire were actually there when the raid took place. It's not always necessary for a breeder to own both of them, but usually to 'borrow' one of them from another owner.

But whether they were there or not, it sounds like the dam and sire may have already done their bit. So it's not so much they that are worth keeping intact, but the puppies. 'Coz the little guys and gals would be the ones inheriting the low coefficients that are desirable... no?

Does that logic sound right to somebody who actually knows something abt breeding? In this forum, for me to claim any knowledge of Poodle genetics would be laffable.


----------



## Tuomas

Countryboy said:


> If the courts rule against the owner . . a big 'if' . . then ownership of the dogs would be passed to someone other than her... maybe to the shelter. At that point, the court appointed 'owners' should have the power to decide the eventual disposition of the dogs... and what conditions would apply to their disposal.
> 
> But here's me musing... and I would be interested in other opinions on this next part.
> 
> IDK if the intact dam and the intact sire were actually there when the raid took place. It's not always necessary for a breeder to own both of them, but usually to 'borrow' one of them from another owner.
> 
> But whether they were there or not, it sounds like the dam and sire may have already done their bit. So it's not so much they that are worth keeping intact, but the puppies. 'Coz the little guys and gals would be the ones inheriting the low coefficients that are desirable... no?
> 
> Does that logic sound right to somebody who actually knows something abt breeding? In this forum, for me to claim any knowledge of Poodle genetics would be laffable.


It is quite likely that because of the situation the puppies can't/won't be registered. Also without co-operation from the breeder their sire may be left unknown.

Dot is almost seven and should IMO be retired from breeding. There were couple of other socialized adults but to have breeding value they need to at least have registration and be identifiable.


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## Countryboy

Well thanx, Tuomas. Turns out that u are right. My question has just been answered too by Kim... from the Shelter Valley Rescue.

Hi Frank -

Thanks for your message, and your support!

I do sympathize with your wish to allow these dogs to breed again - but, unfortunately, if they are awarded to us we are required to spay/neuter them before they leave our hands. It goes beyond standard procedure, to actually be part of most shelters' bylaws. That's why it's particularly tragic when a breeder does this to their dogs; whatever lines they had going end up lost (we can't even transfer AKC registrations to a new owner). So sad.

But, the poodles are very happy right now, and that's our main focus - one day at a time, it's just "are they happy today?" :-D

Kim

What a dawg gone pity, eh?


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## KidWhisperer

Countryboy said:


> But, the poodles are very happy right now, and that's our main focus - one day at a time, it's just "are they happy today?" :-D
> 
> Kim


In my book, this is all that matters.


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## Tuomas

I agree that the most important thing is that the dogs are taken care of and continuation of bad treatment is prevented.


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## CT Girl

Thank you for the update Frank. It looks like the rescue is doing a wonderful job. It is wonderful to see the dogs blossom under their care. Hopefully the court will see justice done.

Poodlemama99 I drove 6 hours (one way) to check out Swizzle's breeder too as well as asking questions of poodle people. I agree with you there is nothing like visiting in person where you can see, smell and sense what is going on not to mention check out the personality of the breeder's dogs.


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## Poodlemama99

CT girl. My dear husband would drive to California to avoid having to ship a poodle and so that we could see the breeder and their home and facility. Fortunately we only had to drive to South Carolina as California is on the other side of the country for us. But there is no end to what we will do for our poodles.


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## peppersb

It sounds like the only way that any of the dogs could be bred again would be if the court assigned ownership of one or two of the dogs directly to a breeder. It might be in everyone's interest if a solution could be found that prevented Darla from owning dogs, but allowed at least a few of these dogs (perhaps some of the pups) to be owned and bred by a breeder who takes good care of her dogs and understands poodle genetics. 

For anyone interested in the genetics, Dot (the mother dog) has a very low COI and a very low Wycliffe percentage (16%). Her haplotypes are 1 and 5. In an April 2012 posting on this forum, Yadda said the following:

I'll use for example my Dot x Gilley breeding. Dot's haplotypes are 1 and 5; Gilley's haplotypes are 1 and 4 (meaning that both of my parent dogs are heterozygous). The possible haplotypes of the resulting offspring are:
1/1 (homozygous)
1/5 (heterozygous)
1/4 (heterozygous)
4/5 (heterozygous)

I don't know for sure who the father of this litter is, but I'm guessing that it is Gilley. He also has a low COI, low Wycliffe percentage and, as noted above, is heterozygous. If anyone wants to check pedigrees, Dot is Karandars Flashback and Gilley is Yadda's Giollaruaidh.

If any breeder is interested in this, you might want to find a way to let the court and/or Darla know of your interest and your qualifications.

BTW, all of the above info is obtained from the Internet, not from any private sources. I have no idea what the court might or might not do about the dogs. Just an idea in case anyone is interested.


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## Chagall's mom

Just want to salute The Forget Me Not Shelter, not only for their_ amazin_g good work and advocacy on behalf of the poodles, but for being SO INCREDIBLY RESPONSIVE in personally replying to so many of us for our support. I can't get over how quickly they send out emails to express their appreciation for our contributions and ideas! I keep getting PM's from members sharing the same sentiment. With all the other things they have to manage, it's remarkable Kim so promptly replies to each and every donor and supporter. Way to go, FMNS, you really are unforgettably good!!


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## Pluto

peppersb said:


> I don't know for sure who the father of this litter is, but I'm guessing that it is Gilley.


Along these lines, I'm not really sure that we truly know the heritage of any of the puppies. The rescue will have a much better idea of the actual conditions the dogs were kept in, how many intact animals there where, etc. But in a truly chaotic situation, even the owner may not know which dog bred her bitch. Maybe she kept them all chained and kenneled separately? But a chained bitch, even in a rural country location, can be caught by just about anything.

I’m not sure the information would exist to really understand the heritage of these dogs if the breeder was not as careful as a breeder truly needs to be. Much of the information regarding these specific dogs was posted on the internet by the breeder, did she have any close “in person” breeders that could verify her crosses and facilities? I just don't know that once you balance the risk of what you really don't know about these dogs, if any responsable breeder is going to want to put forth the effort to "preserve" them instead of finding dogs from the same lines that have proven themselves in a public venue?


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## Dagmar

*Farvel*

Du er riktig. Min gitt navn er ikke Dagmar. Jeg er bare så privat som resten av du. Mitt navn er ikke Darla. Jeg ikke kjenne Darla. Jeg har ikke møtt henne. Min historien er sann. 
Min første innlegget jeg skrev av meg. Senere kontering jeg brukte selger og språk problemløseren. Jeg tror de fleste er du hjerte syk idiotene med hodet opp ditt asen. Det er noen av dere snakke med intelligens og noen av du gjør gode henvisning til sint administrer klasser. 
Så vil jeg gå tilbake å lurer. Og leter for en ny pudel. Ett med en god genetiske bakgrunn. Farvel ikke se du senere du skrøpelig idioter.


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## Countryboy

Dagmar said:


> Jeg tror de fleste er du hjerte syk idiotene med hodet opp ditt asen.


But not all of us.  

Don't be leavin'... stick around, eh? It gets better! 

'eh' - a Canadian expression used to turn a monologue into a dialog. Similar to the Brits' use of the word 'right?' at the end of a statement.


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## peppersb

For those of you who are not fluent in Norwegian, here's a translation. It is from Google Translate, so probably not perfectly accurate.

Farewell

You are correct. My given name is Dagmar. I'm just as private as the rest of you. My name is Darla. I do not know Darla. I have not met her. My story is true.
My first post I wrote of me. Later posting I used sell and language fixer. I think most of you heart sick idiots with your head up your ass. There are some of you speak with intelligence and some of you make good reference to angry manage classes.
Then I go back to wondering. And looking for a new pudel. One with a good genetic background. Farewell not see you later you weak idiots.


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## Poodlee

*Farvel*

Google translators are horrible at best. Dagmar is saying his name is not Dagmar "Min gitt navn er ikke Dagmar. Ikke is a negator like "is not" Mitt navn er ikke Darla. Jeg ikke kjenne Darla. 
He still makes some good points about paying attention to genetics. Many poodle breeders, not all, have been more concerned with producing dogs for the show ring. Show dog does their thing in 2-3 years and then is "retired" to a pet owner loves the dog and then for some comes the heart break of a dog who breaks down with hidden health issues. We need to work together to improve the breed. Breeders need to pay attention the PHR and pet owners need to be able to access this information so they can choose the best possible pet.


----------



## oley

Dear all, I am new to this forum. The president of the poodle club in our area passed the message about the poodles in need. As I was trying to connect the dots on who those poodles are, I discovered this forum. I would like to add my 2c to the topic of diversity and the breeding value of the dogs removed from this breeder. 

First of all, these is no reason to cry over losing these genes forever. Quick research through the Poodle Pedigree database reveals that quite a few puppies from this person's breeding went to other breeders, and participate in their breeding programs as well. So these 29 poodles are by no means the Noah's Ark of poodle diversity.

Secondly, looking through this breeder's posts, I stumbled upon the following quote:


> "When I breed, which is rarely, no litters planned for this year, one of my focuses is on dogs with excellent work potential."


This was written one month ago, when she had a litter of 4-week olds and Dot 5 weeks into pregnancy! It's either that she was blatantly lying or she was totally unaware of what was happening in her own backyard. Either way, this doesn't sound like breeding for the sake of producing healthy and sound poodles. I am sure that no serious breeder would want these puppies in their breeding program.

So what are we left with? No regrets! Let's just hope these poodles are not returned to their owner, and find loving and caring pet homes which they deserve.


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## CT Girl

Welcome to the forum Oleg. You make some excellent points. It sounds like breeding is a moot point anyway but I am glad to here that the diverse lines won't be lost and as you point out the current puppies heritage may be clouded.

Dagmar, I hope you give us another chance. I can honestly say reading through the posts that although there has been disagreement in how the dogs are handled (sterilize or not) we are all united in our love for poodles and concern that these dogs get loving homes.


----------



## peppersb

oley said:


> First of all, these is no reason to cry over losing these genes forever. Quick research through the Poodle Pedigree database reveals that quite a few puppies from this person's breeding went to other breeders, and participate in their breeding programs as well. So these 29 poodles are by no means the Noah's Ark of poodle diversity.


Interesting point, Oley. But when I look at poodlepedigree.com, the only offspring of Dot that I can find that appears to be in a breeding program is Karandars Believe In The Dream. This dog is a cross between Dot (a standard) and a mini. That may meet the objectives of the breeder who owns the dog, but a lot of breeders would not want a standard-mini cross in their breeding program. Do you know of other Dot offspring? And especially, do you know of any Dot-Gilley offspring that are in breeding programs?


----------



## zyrcona

Disclaimer: I have just had major surgery. Some of the following may be opiates talking.

I knew Darla. I was not aware she had so many dogs, or that Dot had a litter lately. Perhaps this was me misreading things; perhaps there was some deliberate deception and fantasy involved. I never met her in person, but meeting someone in person doesn’t guarantee they won’t be a serial killer or have a secret dungeon under their house etc. anyway and you can still enjoy someone on a purely intellectual level without needing to meet them. The information Darla passed around on these fora doesn’t excuse anything she may have done, but on the same level, what Darla has done doesn’t in any way invalidate any information that came from her. She was open-minded, informed, and fun to have in a discussion (even if I didn’t always agree with her). It is also irrational to use the conditions Darla’s dogs were found in to discredit other diversity breeders or diversity breeding in general, as plenty of show kennels have had welfare crises discovered and dogs seized. It was always my impression that Darla did love her dogs and would not deliberately want them to suffer. It was also my impression that she was a hermit and probably a bit of a grungy person, and I expect the conditions in the house she lived in herself were not very nice. When people live alone for a long time, their concepts of hygiene and decency start to get distorted.

I’m not sure I can form an opinion on this at the current time without more information. I live in a community with lots of farmers, and see various dogs who live in pens and outbuildings. This wouldn’t be acceptable to most people (including myself), but many people do it and there’s not a law against it. The photographs show one matted and dirty dog in an unacceptable condition and a lot of shorn-off dogs looking to be in decent condition. I can’t tell if this is indicative of long-term neglect or a sudden crisis. Darla’s previous involvement with a rescue organisation happened while she was fighting cancer (her account of the cancer seemed realistic to me, so I have no reason to suspect this was a lie). No dogs were seized. I don’t know if Darla had mental health conditions, but the type of cancer she had and the surgery it would have involved would likely have left her with some physical limitations. Dot, the chained-up dog, as others have said, is a low-Wycliffe bitch with an interesting pedigree, although this of course doesn’t say anything about her suitability for breeding or its likely effect on her welfare. From the picture I get the impression she was chained inside the building, not outside where she could be attacked by predators, and it was my understanding she was something of an escape artist, so it may make more sense in this light. The rescue website itself speaks of how nice her temperament is. I understood something had been going on recently, so it may have been that Dot was in the outbuilding as a temporary measure, or that may just be wishful thinking. In all, I don’t think I can draw any proper conclusions until evidence from the court hearing is published.


----------



## oley

peppersb said:


> Interesting point, Oley. But when I look at poodlepedigree.com, the only offspring of Dot that I can find that appears to be in a breeding program is Karandars Believe In The Dream. This dog is a cross between Dot (a standard) and a mini. That may meet the objectives of the breeder who owns the dog, but a lot of breeders would not want a standard-mini cross in their breeding program. Do you know of other Dot offspring? And especially, do you know of any Dot-Gilley offspring that are in breeding programs?


Gilley's son Yadda Cause Chaos Pedigree: Yadda Cause Chaos has just turned two and is with Apres Argent Standard Poodles, so is his littermate Yadda Cause A Commotion Pedigree: Yadda Cause A Commotion. 

The database does not reveal anything for Dot, but has plenty info on her mother, Suki No Shenanigans Pedigree: Suki No Shenanigans. At least one of her offsprings from another male named True No Shenanigans At Grenier Pedigree: True No Shenanigans At Grenier has had an eventful sex life :angel2: He is owned by Natalie Green Tessier (I am not sure if Natalie is on this forum or not), who is a big advocate of poodle diversity herself.

I must admit that I was not thorough enough and didn't notice that the Karandars breedings were inter-varietal, thank you for pointing this out to me!


----------



## oley

zyrcona said:


> The photographs show one matted and dirty dog in an unacceptable condition and a lot of shorn-off dogs looking to be in decent condition. I can’t tell if this is indicative of long-term neglect or a sudden crisis.


1) Two severely matted dogs, a male and a female. The female was shaved down the same day. The male took several days to approach (!) in order to shave him.

2) a litter of 8-week old puppies who have zero human socialization

3) a litter of puppies from a mother, who has to be chained in order not to escape from her newborns; the least I can say is that if a mother escapes from her puppies like that, this is not a genetically healthy behavior and is not something to spread through breeding. This is not her first litter, so the breeder should have known better than to breed her. (assuming that you are right about the reason for chaining the mother)

4? How many cases of neglect do we really need in order to justify the removal of dogs from this breeder's "care"?



> I live in a community with lots of farmers, and see various dogs who live in pens and outbuildings.


Poodles are companion dogs in every essence of this word. If they were beagles or borzois, they would be in a much better mental condition living without human interaction. Poodles are not meant to be farmer dogs. This fact certainly contributes to the problem.


----------



## zyrcona

oley said:


> 1) Two severely matted dogs, a male and a female. The female was shaved down the same day. The male took several days to approach (!) in order to shave him.
> 
> 2) a litter of 8-week old puppies who have zero human socialization
> 
> 3) a litter of puppies from a mother, who has to be chained in order not to escape from her newborns; the least I can say is that if a mother escapes from her puppies like that, this is not a genetically healthy behavior and is not something to spread through breeding. This is not her first litter, so the breeder should have known better than to breed her. (assuming that you are right about the reason for chaining the mother)
> 
> 4? How many cases of neglect do we really need in order to justify the removal of dogs from this breeder's "care"?


Where are you getting this information? I can only find pictures and very limited descriptions of what is going on there. I'm not trying to be belligerent or funny with you, I just want to make sure I am getting objective information from the horse's mouth. If Dot's usual situation was in an outbuilding with a chain around her neck, obviously that isn't acceptable, but it does kind of seem as though she might have had to go away at short notice and the dogs could have been thrown into whatever temporary containment could be used (and this is a welfare problem, but it's a different situation to long-term neglect). Hopefully at some point there will be a description of each dog and the conditions it was found in as it was with the Dokken case. The picture doesn't always tell the whole story, and I would rather give someone the benefit of the doubt when there's a lack of compelling evidence. There was a picture widely circulated at one time that was claimed to be a 'mummified alien' -- an authentic-looking black-and-white image of a humanoid corpse of bizarre proportions in a sarcophagus. The image was genuine, but the description wasn't -- it was actually a foetus found in Tutankhamun's tomb and when you saw another image of it to scale its true identity was obvious.


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## oley

*zyrcona*, the first-hand info is here: Poodle Rescue


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## Countryboy

oley said:


> Gilley's son Yadda Cause Chaos Pedigree: Yadda Cause Chaos has just turned two and is with Apres Argent Standard Poodles, so is his littermate Yadda Cause A Commotion Pedigree: Yadda Cause A Commotion.


Now there's someone we haven't heard from. Her posts have always seemed rational to me. Maybe she might know more than some of the speculation in here???

Maybe we'll hear her take on this situation eventually.


----------



## Keithsomething

Oley your posts are so well thought out in a cloud of murky thoughts...thank you so much!!

Again...people need to STOP looking at these dogs as if they're the last bastion of poodledom, IF these dogs were to be allowed out to be bred (hopefully the prosecutor makes an example of her neglect...) I'd be sending my letter all typed up and fancy to AKC to make sure they were DNA tested...I don't buy that some random dog couldn't have caught her -.- 

STOP trying to explain this to yourselves, none of us are in her head to understand how this happened or why she allowed it...but all the people trying to defend her and give her an excuse NOT to face punishment need to stop its ridiculous


----------



## Countryboy

Keithsomething said:


> STOP trying to explain this to yourselves, none of us are in her head to understand how this happened or why she allowed it...but all the people trying to defend her and give her an excuse NOT to face punishment need to stop its ridiculous


It's obvious that yr taking a great interest in this situation. So are many other people. All with different opinions and input. And this is a forum for discussions.... no?


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## Countryboy

Might as well eliminate the double post now....


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## Olie

I wonder if the pups were slotted for homes prior to the raid and under Yaddas "care"? If deposits had been taken?


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## KidWhisperer

That is a great question, and one that I hope the courts will discover the answer to. As a new, first-time puppy owner, I can only imagine how shocking it would be to purchase and receive a completely unsocialized eight-week-old puppy. Let's hope that those pups weren't spoken for, and that there is still time for them to be socialized to humans and therefore become adoptable.


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## petitpie

I wonder if any deposits are supposedly holding puppies for adoption and complicating where the puppies will go.


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## Fluffyspoos

KidWhisperer said:


> That is a great question, and one that I hope the courts will discover the answer to. As a new, first-time puppy owner, I can only imagine how shocking it would be to purchase and receive a completely unsocialized eight-week-old puppy. Let's hope that those pups weren't spoken for, and that there is still time for them to be socialized to humans and therefore become adoptable.


I doubt they're spoken for, I think their birth actually went unnoticed for a bit considering the natural tails. (I love natural tails, but she didn't seem like an advocate for them.)


----------



## outwest

I am so saddened by this story, by the dogs and by Darla's situation. It reminds me of the Belcanto dogs. This was another person who was trying to improve poodle diversity and genetics, got in over their head, was raided and had dogs removed. Those Belcanto dogs were actually awesome dogs. Again, none of those dogs were starved, either, just as none of Darla's dogs appeared undernourished in food. A poodle should never be owned by anyone who can not care for their coats. I don't give a crap what wonderful things people might be trying to do, all I can think about is the souls of the poodles that are here now. 

I will go to bed tonight happy the dogs are getting what they need and also for their owner, who may have her heart in the right place, but got in over her head. I hope she gets what she needs to. I will also go to bed rather thankful that my city does not allow more than three dogs per household. All I can do from here is take care of my own- mind, body and soul. I hope, I pray, that all of you are doing the same, but I guess none of us really knows.


----------



## zyrcona

Keithsomething said:


> STOP trying to explain this to yourselves, none of us are in her head to understand how this happened or why she allowed it...but all the people trying to defend her and give her an excuse NOT to face punishment need to stop its ridiculous


I don't think anyone is. While trying to find information on this case, I found a lot of rather alarming 'lynch-mobbish' behaviour and a lack of clear factual information. The most ridiculous example was a comment on an Amazon review by someone called Darla Dehlin (couldn't tell for sure if it was the same one) claiming the author of the review was 'pure evil' and that the review therefore was meaningless. I have watched too many people destroy their own lives for themselves and everyone else involved. Someone doesn't cease to be human when they commit a crime. It's something very sad and intensely frustrating for those who do their best to help the person destroying themselves, but it's not an excuse for hatred and vigilantism. There is a human story behind every case, and at the end of every case there will be someone with a blackened name who ultimately has to rebuild his or her life from the abject mess they have made of it.

This case is for a court to decide, and in most legal jurisdictions, a person has a right to be considered innocent until proven guilty. The court will have much more information available to them than some pictures on the Internet and will be able to make a balanced, informed decision. And if the dogs are being mistreated (and after talking to someone privately on the matter, it sounds like they are) then the court will rightly award custody of them to someone else, because dogs need and deserve more than just good intentions.


----------



## kdias

"I can only imagine how shocking it would be to purchase and receive a completely unsocialized eight-week-old puppy."

I agree with you KidWhisperer, I too am a first time poodle owner. It makes me so glad that we made the decision to drive 6 hours to actually see the breeder we had chosen, only to find that her place was even better than the internet pictures.


----------



## peppersb

For those who might not be checking the Poodle Pictures section, pictures of Gilley and Valentine have been posted by the Forget Me Not Shelter:

Forget Me Not Shelter.


----------



## Olie

Fluffyspoos said:


> I doubt they're spoken for, I think their birth actually went unnoticed for a bit considering the natural tails. (I love natural tails, but she didn't seem like an advocate for them.)


Good point, however I am not really sure what her real preferences really were? :afraid:

I was thinking this because of the lag time on this. Also if anyone was duped by her...

I for one hope many people see this (which it seems they have) and NEVER EVER support this person *in regards to breeding*. There are far too many good, ethical, straight forward breeders to work with. 

I am happy to see some of the progress of the dogs - which is so important in finding good homes!!


----------



## Countryboy

Olie said:


> Also if anyone was duped by her...
> 
> I am happy to see some of the progress of the dogs - which is so important in finding good homes!!


LOL, Olie... 

There's a statistic in PF that I like to monitor. Mostly, 'coz mine's not too bad. *There's that 'ego' thing again, eh?  lol* But Yadda's is twice as good as mine.

Stats are given on Thanks per Thanked Posts. But Thanks per Total Posts are interesting too. I average one Thanks for every post I've made in this forum. Not too bad, I think...

Yadda averages two. 

Just sayin...

.............................................

**Good to see that this thread has brought not only new members, but re-engaged some 'older' voices.


----------



## peppersb

Countryboy said:


> There's a statistic in PF that I like to monitor. Mostly, 'coz mine's not too bad. *There's that 'ego' thing again, eh?  lol* But Yadda's is twice as good as mine.
> 
> Stats are given on Thanks per Thanked Posts. But Thanks per Total Posts are interesting too. I average one Thanks for every post I've made in this forum. Not too bad, I think...
> 
> Yadda averages two.


Well said, Country Boy! This is one of the things that is so very tragic about this. Yadda, as indicated by that statistic, was one of the most valued members of this forum. I always read what Yadda had to say. I didn't agree with all of her opinions, but I most certainly learned a lot about poodle genetics from her and I deeply appreciated her contributions to this forum. When I heard about this, and saw the photos, my heart just dropped down into my feet. 

As others have said, it will be up to the courts to review all of the evidence (most of which is not available to us) and determine how to proceed. We can only hope and pray for justice, fairness and a path to a better life (for Darla as well as the dogs). The whole thing is just unbelievably sad.


----------



## liljaker

Countryboy, hate to rain on your parade, BUT, most of the thanks came from other members who thought she was what she said she was. We know differently. I don't give "thanks" a whole lot of weight......many times they just get doled out when there seems to be a competition on the PF and without any particular reason. There are people who THANK everyone..............................and some thank infrequently. I think all that statistic actually indicates is how many people bought into what she said, and if they had known what was going on "behind closed doors" do you still think they would have thanked?


----------



## Olie

One thing nobody can question is Yaddas contribution to this forum. Now what was being contributed....maybe different today 

And CB, I still post just not often but this touched my heart and I posted one time until today, one because I was very concerned *IF* if anyone put down deposits on pups that might not see a dime.. or could be adding to the delay. This would be awful. 

Personally I DO feel everyone is responsible for their crime(s), regardless of how people want to twist things as to why this happened. In the eyes of the law everyone has to pay for their crime and I am glad this is getting the attention it should. It's eye opening and a learning experience for everyone.


----------



## petitpie

Are the two litters subject to the same spay/neuter regulations as the adults and held all that time until old enough? That would be a pretty awful scenario. Maybe they could go to their new homes under court order to spay/neuter at a certain age. Also, could any of them be shown, instead?


----------



## VancouverBC

*Dagmar*

Dagmar,

Please do not leave the forum. I am new here too and joined to ask about poodles before I find my mpoo. There is good advice posted and there are helpful people here.

Two other threads about the same situation preceded this thread. Yet this thread takes on its own life. This particular thread was set up for a purpose and designed to be the train wreck it is. Look at how many views there have been.

It is perplexing when someone tries to hard sell their version of the world. Follow the money trail to find the answer.

If you quickly scan the posts to the end, you will see shifts in the posturing, positioning, and gossiping. Consider that these folks knee jerk reacted at first and as the facts unfolded, reconsidered. Consider that those who continue posting their version of world, think their world is the only world. All points of view are food for thought. No one is perfect. 

*The truth is, the poster reveals more about their character than he/she reveals about the situation.*

There are those who continue to identify and drag the lady in the centre of the situation through their “mud” of insecurity. To what end? Follow the money trail.
Life throws curve balls at everyone. When these posters fall down, I hope no one tramps their heads in “mud” of other people’s making. I hope they are lifted by support. And when they are out of their own mud, I hope they remember what they have done here.

BTW, they could have suspected and accused me of being the lady at the centre of the storm for the same reasons they suspect you. I don’t care and I can’t live in their suspicious minds. 

So Dagmar, please stay and watch the train wreck. You will learn allot about the humans who purport to have enough love in their hearts to love another species, generally dogs, specifically poodles. I wonder what their poodles are like and given that they exposed their true selves, which breeders reading these posts will ever let them adopt one of their babies.

No judgement, just observations. And definitely not out to make enemies.


----------



## Countryboy

liljaker said:


> Countryboy, hate to rain on your parade, BUT, most of the thanks came from other members who thought she was what she said she was. We know differently.


You're not really raining on my parade, really. Your opinion is your opinion... not mine. 

But, speaking of parades, it's interesting to see this bandwagon of "I knew it all the time"ers jumping on. If u people did indeed know it all the time, u had all that time to say something. Many, many threads and many, many posts. 

Were y'all too quiet??? Were y'all too shy??? Or, a point that I *would* believe, just too 'ladylike' to rock the boat??? I know that if I disagreed with Yadda, I would just state that in a post. And state that at the time... not months later. 

I know that I should shut up sometimes... let things pass. My fault is that I come right out and state my opinion. Maybe I should be more ladylike....

But I never come back, after the fact, and say... "Oh... I knew that all along."


----------



## oley

petitpie said:


> Are the two litters subject to the same spay/neuter regulations as the adults and held all that time until old enough? That would be a pretty awful scenario.


The more valid question would probably be WHEN they whould actually be available for adoption. Until the judge makes their decision, these dogs and puppies officially belong to their owner, have to remain at the shelter and/or in foster care. I am not even sure, they are allowed to fix the dogs until they no longer are the property of their original owner. 

Court hearings can continue for months or even years. It is so much harder to find hands for a 2 year old adult than for a puppy. And it is 15 puppies we are talking about. Just imagine a band of fifteen standard poodle adolescents, who have to remain intact until the judges decision... :argh::ahhhhh::afraid:


----------



## Olie

Countryboy said:


> But, speaking of parades, it's interesting to see this bandwagon of "I knew it all the time"ers jumping on. If u people did indeed know it all the time, u had all that time to say something. Many, many threads and many, many posts.
> 
> Were y'all too quiet??? Were y'all too shy??? Or, a point that I *would* believe, just too 'ladylike' to rock the boat??? I know that if I disagreed with Yadda, I would just state that in a post. And state that at the time... not months later.
> 
> I know that I should shut up sometimes... let things pass. My fault is that I come right out and state my opinion. Maybe I should be more ladylike....
> 
> But I never come back, after the fact, and say... "Oh... I knew that all along."



LOL - Country Boy you were always random, sometimes you are too smart for me and I cannot keep up! Who are you referring to on this "Band wagon"? Maybe this would help you get the answers to the questions...maybe?? 

I cannot help but agree, that if people knew this and and were in a position to do something and didn't.....shame on them!!


----------



## Keithsomething

VancouverBC said:


> Dagmar,
> 
> Please do not leave the forum. I am new here too and joined to ask about poodles before I find my mpoo. There is good advice posted and there are helpful people here.
> 
> Two other threads about the same situation preceded this thread. Yet this thread takes on its own life. This particular thread was set up for a purpose and designed to be the train wreck it is. Look at how many views there have been.
> 
> It is perplexing when someone tries to hard sell their version of the world. Follow the money trail to find the answer.
> 
> If you quickly scan the posts to the end, you will see shifts in the posturing, positioning, and gossiping. Consider that these folks knee jerk reacted at first and as the facts unfolded, reconsidered. Consider that those who continue posting their version of world, think their world is the only world. All points of view are food for thought. No one is perfect.
> 
> *The truth is, the poster reveals more about their character than he/she reveals about the situation.*
> 
> There are those who continue to identify and drag the lady in the centre of the situation through their “mud” of insecurity. To what end? Follow the money trail.
> Life throws curve balls at everyone. When these posters fall down, I hope no one tramps their heads in “mud” of other people’s making. I hope they are lifted by support. And when they are out of their own mud, I hope they remember what they have done here.
> 
> BTW, they could have suspected and accused me of being the lady at the centre of the storm for the same reasons they suspect you. I don’t care and I can’t live in their suspicious minds.
> 
> So Dagmar, please stay and watch the train wreck. You will learn allot about the humans who purport to have enough love in their hearts to love another species, generally dogs, specifically poodles. I wonder what their poodles are like and given that they exposed their true selves, which breeders reading these posts will ever let them adopt one of their babies.
> 
> No judgement, just observations. And definitely not out to make enemies.


this post truly disturbed me...I'm not one to hide what i say at all (its usually pretty straight forward what I'm trying to get at) BUT I'm in no way trying to run someone through the mud just trying to shine light on this situation...because unfortunately for FUTURE poodles people tend to forget about these situations (can anyone remember Katie Dokken?!?! her probation is up soon so she'll be sending out her feelers to get more dogs!) 
I won't let people forget about this...point period blank

(and IF it were directed at me, there are several breeders quite happy to place a dog in my home because they've seen the way I care for the animals already there...also I'm quite passionate which isn't something you see often ;D)


----------



## petitpie

We are logically assuming the court believes the owner is well enough and can afford to assume care of any(all) of the dogs before ownership proceedings even begin....sounds like a multi-step process...this could drag out much too long for well-socialized dogs. The dogs" only speedy resulation is for her to agree to give them up voluntarily....or have the dogs face long-term(years) foster or non-ownership or rescue.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Countryboy said:


> LOL, Olie...
> 
> There's a statistic in PF that I like to monitor. Mostly, 'coz mine's not too bad. *There's that 'ego' thing again, eh?  lol* But Yadda's is twice as good as mine.
> 
> Stats are given on Thanks per Thanked Posts. But Thanks per Total Posts are interesting too. I average one Thanks for every post I've made in this forum. Not too bad, I think...
> 
> Yadda averages two.
> 
> Just sayin...
> 
> .............................................
> 
> **Good to see that this thread has brought not only new members, but re-engaged some 'older' voices.


These statistics are irrelevant because the 'thank' option didn't come out until recently, many of the people here have been here for a long time. Pay attention to the date joined.


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo

Folks, it happens all the time, and not just breeders. I rescued Rem from a bad situation. People start out with good intentions, but some how they do not follow through.


----------



## Keithsomething

The truly awful thing about that is...it DOESN'T just happen all the time not in our breed to this extent, sure there are people who get overwhelmed super fast (especially when you don't plan well and have NO contingency plans...so really THESE situations only happen to people who are under organized and chose not to ask for help BEFORE it gets bad) but for someone to let the situation go SO long that the dog looks like a rug has been draped over it...I don't buy that this was a sudden turn of events...choosing to remain oblivious to your situation doesn't help anyone involved least of all the dogs.


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## sweetheartsrodeo

When I got Rem, his hair was so long, he had never been groomed. It was the middle of winter and I knew that if he looked like that on the outside that under his coat was going to be bad. I totally shaved him naked, treated his sores - he had huge places where he had sat in his own waste. He lived in a cage the first year of his life. Reason - he was too hyper as a puppy and they wanted him to calm down....


----------



## oley

petitpie said:


> Also, could any of them be shown, instead?


Why?!


----------



## petitpie

For any previous good reasons already mentioned.......


----------



## Fluffyspoos

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> Folks, it happens all the time, and not just breeders. I rescued Rem from a bad situation. People start out with good intentions, but some how they do not follow through.


So we should just shrug it off because it 'happens all the time?'


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo

Heck no! I think that the people who are abusing animals should suffer the same abuse they have made that dog, or cat, or whatever endure! I love my poodle and my poms, every one of my babies are rescues. I hope there is a time that no rescues are needed. It is heartbreaking. While I am not a pitbull fan, look at all the groups that have resucud that breed from horrible people. It is enough to make you cry.


----------



## outwest

I agree with Keith that in order for a poodle to get THAT bad with a long, completely matted rug it had to be several YEARS since a proper groom. That one poor female that was totally matted, terrified and hiding under the wood in the enclosure is clearly a traumatized poodle. I wonder why some of the dogs were well socialized, properly shaved down and friendly and others were like THAT. All I can think of is favoritism and punishment to those less preferred. Although pure speculation, what else could be the reason? Some sick power thing? I can't think of anything else. 

The courts will take all the evidence in hand and I hope she gets the help she desperately needs, but a picture is worth a thousand words and defenses can not counter those pictures. They must NEVER be returned to her. Sure there are reasons it happened and got to this point, but no excuses, absolutely none.


----------



## oley

petitpie said:


> For any previous good reasons mentioned.......


Forgive me if I didn't understand your question correctly. Are you talking about dog shows? Even if it was possible, why would you want to show a dog of uncertain ancestry?


----------



## petitpie

No one would or could.....only if paperwork were in place and evaluations made......


----------



## peppersb

*New photos*

Pictures of Dot and her 10 pups have been posted.

Poodle Rescue


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

OMG!!! They are so cute! Dot and her kids all look like happy, well adjusted souls. Every puppy...tail up! Dot looks like a wise old gal. Lovely to get updates and see these babies looking so at ease.


----------



## zyrcona

outwest said:


> I wonder why some of the dogs were well socialized, properly shaved down and friendly and others were like THAT. All I can think of is favoritism and punishment to those less preferred. Although pure speculation, what else could be the reason? Some sick power thing? I can't think of anything else.


Apologies for keeping dragging this up, but this is exactly what I keep getting stuck logically speaking on. Why were two dogs overgrown and matted while the others apparently were in shorn-down clips like the ones Gilley and Valentine are photographed in? There are pictures of only a few of the 29 who are reported to have been there. Could it be that the two dogs came from somewhere _else_ and had recently been added? It's looking like a hoarding situation, and hoarders I understand feel compelled to 'rescue' dogs but then can't care for them (and I'm sure 29 is far too many for one person with a full-time job to manage, particularly as the reason given for them being seized was that they had no water). It could also be something to do with the dogs' particular temperaments that had caused them to get into that state. Perhaps it was simply impossible for her to get hold of them in order to groom them if they were so fearful of people? Again, I'm not condoning it or trying to make excuses for her, but there's stuff here that just isn't adding up without more information.

Also is it truly possible to tell how badly matted the matted dogs are from the pictures currently on the site? Dogs can get themselves in a pretty disgusting-looking state in a short time if they are wet and decide to roll around in something dusty or dirty. The matted dog pictures on the site all seem to be of the same dog (asides from a few with grotty ankles), and it looks like someone has already started to shear it off and left the second half of the job for later. It almost looks like it might have been corded before it got into that state. There need to be more pictures showing exactly which dogs were there and what state they were in, and a detailed account of the site and the dogs and where they were and how they reacted.


----------



## PaddleAddict

Speculation, speculation, speculation!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Exactly!


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Countryboy said:


> But, speaking of parades, it's interesting to see this bandwagon of "I knew it all the time"ers jumping on. If u people did indeed know it all the time, u had all that time to say something. Many, many threads and many, many posts.
> 
> Were y'all too quiet??? Were y'all too shy??? Or, a point that I *would* believe, just too 'ladylike' to rock the boat??? I know that if I disagreed with Yadda, I would just state that in a post. And state that at the time... not months later.
> 
> I know that I should shut up sometimes... let things pass. My fault is that I come right out and state my opinion. Maybe I should be more ladylike....
> 
> But I never come back, after the fact, and say... "Oh... I knew that all along."


I haven't seen any posts with members claiming to have known about this all along. To have known that she had all of these dogs and in this condition. Can you direct me to these posts? It's possible I have missed them because this thread is so long!

It seems there were a fair amount of people that had heard about her incident with Poodle Rescue though, and in hindsight, based on this knowledge, finding out that Darla's dogs had been seized was probably a bit less of a shock. Maybe I'm being optimistic here, but I don't know that anyone here realized how many dogs she had, in what condition they were kept, or how bad the situation really was. 

For many people, they knew enough from rumors and hearsay to know that she might be another iffy breeder, misrepresented on this forum with some pretty well written posts, but that's about it. You wouldn't suggest we start threads on all iffy breeders on this forum, no? That's awfully subjective and I think it rarely ends up like this. How was anyone supposed to know?


----------



## petitpie

We have seen about 20 of the 29 dogs in pictures--including 15 puppies and clipped and unclipped adults. The grounds aren't left up to much spectulation.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

If I am not mistaken, the entire incident, from Darla's perspective, used to be on her own web site. Sure did not seem she was trying to hide the fact that she reached out for help.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

*Hoarding Info*

These were posted by someone else in a different place and I am sharing because it's a good read on hoarding, for anyone interested.

Animal hoarding


----------



## 2719

CharismaticMillie said:


> For many people, they knew enough from rumors and hearsay to know that she might be another iffy breeder, misrepresented on this forum with some pretty well written posts, but that's about it.


This is a good summary.


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## sweetheartsrodeo

The puppies are darling. While the other dogs need some TLC, don't you just want to love them? Sigh... What beautiful souls gos have "They are the only thing on earth that will love you more then they love themselves" ~ can't remember who said it but... yeah....


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## Keithsomething

There were more than just a few dogs matted...did you see the ones in the attempt at a miami? The pom poms had been matted for so long they looked corded...while cording ISN'T a painful thing for a poodle when monitored, this doesn't appear to be a situation where the dogs were monitored much at all and i think its fair to surmise those matts were causing some sort of discomfort for the dogs =\

I just see so many people attempting to make excuses for her, I understand she was respected (I personally rather enjoyed talking to her she was always friendly to me in PM's and in threads) by members of this forum...but trying to excuse her behaviour by deciding she must have been mentally unstable doesn't change the fact that this happened to dogs that were supposed to be under HER care


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## zyrcona

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't know that anyone here realized how many dogs she had, in what condition they were kept, or how bad the situation really was.


I was aware of a 'core contingent' of favourite dogs (the bitch with epilepsy who recently died, Gilley and her three bitches Dot, Valentine, and Ginger) and then two brothers called Monty and Ripley who she bred (haven't seen them in the rescue's photographs, I think they were blue but they were born with phantom markings that disappeared). There was also a bitch with SA and some offspring from her that she had been unable or unwilling (not sure which) to sell because of this and that was what she contacted the rescue originally for help with. What shocks me most is the puppies, two litters of them, one from Dot and the other presumably from one of the other bitches, when she strongly implied on the forum and in direct communication that she wasn't actively breeding. I have no idea who the other dogs might be.


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## CT Girl

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/21269-another-raid-post257299.html#post257299

This post seems to indicate Keith and others were aware. It is possible that although some may have been aware they were working to help the poodles and perhaps were wary of possible litigation problems by making statements on the internet.

Just as I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to those that kept silent I do not want to try Darla in the court of public opinion. The pictures to me are indeed damning but there is so much I don't know. I can't imagine a senario where the dogs should be returned but it is not for me to pass judgement. I do hope whatever the cause for this neglect to happen the judge puts the dog's welfare first and foremost in his decision.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I have not seen anyone excusing the treatment of the dogs, whether or not there might be physical or mental illness involved. All I have seen is people wondering if this might be the case. What was found was wrong, plain and simple. Dogs...all dogs...should be part of a home, where they know love and feel secure.


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## Countryboy

Keithsomething said:


> I just see so many people attempting to make excuses for her, I understand she was respected (I personally rather enjoyed talking to her she was always friendly to me in PM's and in threads) by members of this forum...but trying to excuse her behaviour by deciding she must have been mentally unstable doesn't change the fact that this happened to dogs that were supposed to be under HER care


Absolutely, Keith. But I hope u don't see me as trying to excuse her behaviour. Her behaviour, for whatever reason, and by many standards, is 'neglect of animals under your care'. And that situation must be remedied.

If I'm labelled as 'understanding possible reasons' for her behaviour then I would have to plead guilty to that.


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## CharismaticMillie

CT Girl said:


> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/21269-another-raid-post257299.html#post257299
> 
> This post seems to indicate Keith and others were aware. It is possible that although some may have been aware they were working to help the poodles and perhaps were wary of possible litigation problems by making statements on the internet.
> 
> Just as I am trying to give the benefit of the doubt to those that kept silent I do not want to try Darla in the court of public opinion. The pictures to me are indeed damning but there is so much I don't know. I can't imagine a senario where the dogs should be returned but it is not for me to pass judgement. I do hope whatever the cause for this neglect to happen the judge puts the dog's welfare first and foremost in his decision.


I am about 125% sure that Keith was not aware of the reality of the situation. Also, from the link to previous posts that you just posted, each of those posts imply that several members w_ere aware of Darla's incident with Poodle Rescue (and I don't mean from her point of view) and had heard enough rumors to know that she was potentially an iffy breeder._ Not a single one of those posts implies that anyone had any clue how many dogs she had, what condition they were in, or the reality of the situation. Just as I said before! Do you have any clue how many rumors about iffy breeders exist? Should we start a thread on all of them? 

I agree, I don't see any point in Damning Darla. Doesn't get anyone anywhere, not the dogs, not Darla.


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## Keithsomething

I think trying to give her excuses IS excusing the situation, you can feel bad for the dogs SURE (except for those of you calling for them not to be spayed...you guys aren't the ones I'm addressing here -.-) but it doesn't change the fact that it looks as if many people are trying to justify this behaviour (justifying it by assuming that she was mentally unstable, because most of us tend to be typical we couldn't imagine doing this to our dogs)

Also CT Girl, I did NOT know the conditions that Darla's dogs were in. I did however hear the same rumblings that this has happened before...2007 is the oldest case I've been able to find...but I'm still hunting

the court of public opinion SHOULD be held...why should someone be allowed to do this to dogs and face no sort of public outcry?


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## CharismaticMillie

Keithsomething said:


> No the scary thing is this woman was involved with PHR and the standard poodle diversity project (or whatever the title was). All of these things are online *but EVERYONE knew what she was doing* -.-
> 
> 
> But you're absolutely right makes you wonder how much "experience" people really have outside of the Internet...I think there are several members on this forum that preach with no knowledge...unfortunately they're followed by the blind deaf masses


CT Girl, if you're referring to the bolded in your assumption that many people knew about Darla's treatment of her dogs, *I *read this _instead_ to say that he means that everyone, even those not in the online poodle world, knew what she was doing _with the Standard Poodle Diversity Project_. (She was a big leader/proponent.) Hopefully Keith can clarify for us.


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## zyrcona

Keithsomething said:


> the court of public opinion SHOULD be held...why should someone be allowed to do this to dogs and face no sort of public outcry?


Because it is up to the law to try and convict someone and punish them accordingly.


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## Keithsomething

CharismaticMillie said:


> CT Girl, if you're referring to the bolded in your assumption that many people knew about Darla's treatment of her dogs, *I *read this _instead_ to say that he means that everyone, even those not in the online poodle world, knew what she was doing _with the Standard Poodle Diversity Project_. (She was a big leader/proponent.) Hopefully Keith can clarify for us.


CM thats how I meant it =\ I can't imagine anyone chose to ignore the situation! Her presence was everywhere when it came to diversity in poodles, and was such a huge part of PHR and other pivotal poodle related sites.

Though many people had heard about her past with the 2007 case, and the one from the poodle rescue =\


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## Keithsomething

zyrcona said:


> Because it is up to the law to try and convict someone and punish them accordingly.


true, I completely agree...but these were HER dogs on HER property...are we going to pull the KD defense and say this all was staged? i didn't think so...so until that time when she is found not guilty because someone else was caring for the dogs in her stead...NOT because of lack of evidence, then I'll concede, until then this needs to be known by everyone


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## zyrcona

Keithsomething said:


> true, I completely agree...but these were HER dogs on HER property...are we going to pull the KD defense and say this all was staged? i didn't think so...so until that time when she is found not guilty because someone else was caring for the dogs in her stead...NOT because of lack of evidence, then I'll concede, until then this needs to be known by everyone


But this is not a fair trial. It is an electronic lynching on the grounds of incomplete evidence. The right to a fair trial is a cornerstone of the majority of first world societies.


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## VancouverBC

*OMG! Keithsomething!*



Keithsomething said:


> true, I completely agree...but these were HER dogs on HER property...are we going to pull the KD defense and say this all was staged? i didn't think so...so until that time when she is found not guilty because someone else was caring for the dogs in her stead...NOT because of lack of evidence, then I'll concede, until then this needs to be known by everyone


OMG! accuser, prosecutor, jury, judge, and jailer all in Keithsomething?

As part of your tagline says *"What you do, speaks so loudly." *


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## Keithsomething

VancouverBC said:


> OMG! accuser, prosecutor, jury, judge, and jailer all in Keithsomething?
> 
> As part of your tagline says *"What you do, speaks so loudly." *


I'm not following your thought process...perhaps i am those things in the court of public opinion, but I do hope she gets a fair trial...though I also hope the prosecuting attorney does his/her best at making an example of this case


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## outwest

I read Keith as angry. He loves poodles like all of us do. Maybe he feels as duped as I do and it reads irrational, but I am angry at her, too. I don't disagree with much of what he has said, I am only keeping it to myself. Lets just say I am glad she isn't standing in front of me. If that makes me part of the public lynching, then so be it. I can have sympathy for a person and their illness, but not when it comes to caring for another living creature.


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## CT Girl

Keith, I misunderstood what you said in what I have quoted above. I took it to mean everyone knew that Darla's dogs were in trouble but notice I believed if this was the case that you and others were working behind the scenes to remedy the situation. I don't think waiting to hear the whole story is letting Darla off the hook. I am just saying that there may be circumstances that wont excuse but will explain the situation. My husband calls me a Pollyanna because I always try to think the best of people. If Darla is mentally or physically sick it will never make the state of her dogs acceptable but it may make it more understandable. You seem to believe the only option is that she is an evil horrible woman. That is not beyond the realm of possibility but it is not the only possiblility.


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## Carley's Mom

I have kept my mouth shut about most of this, but I am so upset! I keep thinking about the Family Affair Thread and how she kept insisting that one family could take care of 34 adult dogs, if I am remembering it right. I said that I did not believe it could be done and it makes me mad to think that she was saying that indeed it could be and her dogs outside suffering the whole time she was typing her s***. Yes, I am mad! And I hope she gets what is coming to her, and I hope she is never allowed to breed another dog... ever!


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## Keithsomething

Carley's Mom said:


> I have kept my mouth shut about most of this, but I am so upset! I keep thinking about the Family Affair Thread and how she kept insisting that one family could take care of 34 adult dogs, if I am remembering it right. I said that I did not believe it could be done and it makes me mad to think that she was saying that indeed it could be and her dogs outside suffering the whole time she was typing her s***. Yes, I am mad! And I hope she gets what is coming to her, and I hope she is never allowed to breed another dog... ever!


to sum it up, yes I'm angry too


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I always thought people were innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent...


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## petitpie

Public opinion is always a done deal, no matter what happens.


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## CharismaticMillie

CT Girl, in a situation like this, I *hope* it's mental illness. Because then it makes more sense. Because the alternative is to have to consider that a person can, with a healthy, sane mind, be capable of such actions. But everything I learned in school studying psychology tells me that this does not happen without something off in the mind. We can only watch and wait and speculate.


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## Virginia TheNurse

I agree with Cherie that this is a sad day for the world of Poodles..........but until we know the whole story we should not be so quick to condemn. I know that pictures are worth a thousand words and I have seen the pictures, my question is what kind of support for HER is in her life.........there is alot more to this than meets the eye.


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## Chagall's mom

From their Facebook page....

*Forget Me Not Animal Shelter*
5 hours ago
POODLE FUNDING ALERT: You'll rarely hear this, but... as of this moment, Forget Me Not has received enough donations to cover the poodles' care for at least 2-3 more weeks, longer if the county reimburses us for any of our expenses. In hoping for a 'best case scenario' that sees the dogs signed over soon, we would still have enough funds to spay/neuter the adults prior to sending them to rescues or adoptive homes, and possibly enough to purchase whatever transport crates we have not had donated by the time the dogs get to head out.

We will keep you posted as things progress, but for right now - we are NOT in need of any further donations for the poodles' current care. Poodle people ROCK!

If the situation drags on and on, we'll let you know when we need help again... until then, the best way to help is to focus all your positive poodle thoughts and energy on the image of these poodles all having a warm, loving, inside home; maybe together, the strength of our combined hopes will make it happen!

We'll continue to update the page on our website and will post the links here. Each of our volunteers is developing their own special "favorite Spoo" bond :-D We'll love them for all of you.


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## peppersb

Here's a question and answer that just appeared on the Forget Me Not Shelter's Facebook page:

Question: Just wondering... Was the welfare check that started this whole thing..... Was it a check on the owner or on the dogs?

Answer from Forget Me Not Animal Shelter: I believe it was a check on the dogs, requested by someone out of state who had knowledge of the dogs' situation.

So it appears that someone did know of the situation, and that they took appropriate action. That's good. Let's hope that the system continues to work as it should. 

BTW, Kim of Forget Me Not Animal Shelter is AMAZING! She is the one who appears to be handling the communication with the public. I just love the way she writes--solid info presented with an extra dose of warmth and humor. She is doing a great job!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Now isn't that a heart warming update from FMN??? Amazing! Good work Poodle peeps!

I wish I lived closer. I have two huge crates I'd love to donate and would love to help socialize those babes. I have puppy fever soooo bad!


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## Fluffyspoos

zyrcona said:


> Apologies for keeping dragging this up, but this is exactly what I keep getting stuck logically speaking on. Why were two dogs overgrown and matted while the others apparently were in shorn-down clips like the ones Gilley and Valentine are photographed in? There are pictures of only a few of the 29 who are reported to have been there. Could it be that the two dogs came from somewhere _else_ and had recently been added?


Entirely possible, but did you notice she never posted pictures of her dogs on here? Wonder why.


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## Countryboy

She did have pix in Flickr. But the latest was 2010.


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## jettabaz

Although I mostly lurk here, I have just read this whole thread and am completely overwhelmed. My first and foremost thoughts go to those poor poodles that have had to suffer through all of this. I hope they get the loving homes that they deserve.

Now to take some time to digest the rest of it.


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## Virginia TheNurse

maybe just MAYBE this might give a little bit of compassion to those who have been spewing venom sadly and crucifying this woman.........it is not an excuse, it is a reason for the behaviour..........I am saddened by the lack of compassion on some members part who apparently are completely without sin......it also angers me to see that kind of condemnation so quick.........it is a very myopic view to say that the dogs are the only ones who need help..........so sad:sad2:


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## Bunny

Forget Me Not shelter does indeed have great folks. I got a REALLY sweet email back after I made my donation. Sounds like the same person who is making the fb updates. So glad they're getting some much-needed help in this tragic situation.


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## Kloliver

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I wish I lived closer. I have two huge crates I'd love to donate


What do you think shipping wld cost? Can you get an estimate? I've already made a sizeable cash donation but *maybe we cld all chip in to cover your shipping if you'd be willing...?*


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I can check, but I suspect it would cost more than the crates are worth.They are huge and heavy.


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## Countryboy

Olie said:


> LOL - Country Boy.... .....Who are you referring to on this "Band wagon"? Maybe this would help you get the answers to the questions...maybe??


I had to find this post again now that I've got time to answer it. And the answer is?????... that I honestly don't know. 

I don't remember, and can't be bothered looking it up. Bein' a guy, a lot of the details go in one ear and out the other.  lol 

And besides, there's gettin' to be a lot of 'cross-pollination' in this thread. I'm trying to convince Keith that there may be mitigating circumstances in this issue, 'coz he's having a hard time accepting that... but I found myself going back and Thanking him for many of his insights and information.

Likewise other people, who may be on the 'other side' of this issue but still have something to say. Often things that I didn't know, *Fluffy  *or hadn't thought abt, and I'm glad for their input.  

And I find 'Thanks' now coming from both camps to the other. The CAPS and exclamation marks are dying down and the discussion seems lately to be getting more rational. 

Kudos to both 'sides'... 'coz the 'discussion' is what we're all here for.


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## Keithsomething

Virginia TheNurse said:


> maybe just MAYBE this might give a little bit of compassion to those who have been spewing venom sadly and crucifying this woman.........it is not an excuse, it is a reason for the behaviour..........I am saddened by the lack of compassion on some members part who apparently are completely without sin......it also angers me to see that kind of condemnation so quick.........it is a very myopic view to say that the dogs are the only ones who need help..........so sad:sad2:


I mean you can be sad about it...but I don't personally care, I'm compassionate and passionate about the dogs, the woman gets none of my sympathy because I'm not about to give her another excuse to do this again!


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## Maximuspoodle

*just the sad facts..*

If I come across to some as one of the online lynch mob attacking Darla, it is because I am aware of facts in this case that are not public and they are very disturbing. Rescue is hard. I know that there must have been many tears shed, heavy hearts and sleepless nights for people who were working to help Darla's dogs over a period of years. On behalf of all the poodles who now have a temporary safe sanctuary, food, medical attention and are surrounded by love, I thank you! You are heros. 

Animals are not easily removed from their owners in the USA, every effort is made to work with the owner. I can assure you that the conditions at this site were assessed by professionals to be such that it warranted seizure. To take this action at the expense of local taxpayers and considering the resources readily available in this remote area, things were BAD!!! 

Another fact, there was more that one person that requested a welfare check for the animals AND help was repeatedly offered and refused by Darla over a long period of time. Animals were suffering, really suffering, so she could profit off selling animals while living her online fantasy of being a diverse poodle breeder. 

Another fact, the prosector was to file charges last week, four charges of second degree animal cruelty. The evidence is there. The prosector was made aware that this story was being followed by advocates for these dogs and it would potentially receive widespread media attention. I was told that when he received that information it factored into his decision to carefully review the evidence again with the vet who examined the animals. My latest information was that the charges had been increased to five prior to the meeting with the vet. 

While some on this list have great faith in the legal process and justice prevailing, the truth is that she may not be convicted. Not because she is not guilty of abuse/neglect but there are legal excuses, our British sleuth can google washington's affirmative defense loophole. Just one example. 

I have very real concerns, as does Keithsomething, that she could get some of the dogs back and start right back up again. Everyone should fear her getting any of her dogs back or her getting her hands more poodles. The court of public opinion may just save some dogs. Is that fair, well some may say no. I disagree. Take the case of Jerry Sandusky. He built himself quite the reputation, gave lavishly of his time and money to charity, earned the trust and respect of the community but all the while his hidden agenda was to create opportunities to prey on the fatherless boys of poor women. There were whispers about him eventually too, for a long time. I'm sure there is a human story there, he is mentally ill...but that horror story went on waaaaay to long.

Finally, this woman has an active license as a practical nurse. Right now, I cannot 100% confirm this but I am told she is unemployed. This concerns me greatly as I have patients who take small children home and rely on unsupervised home nursing care. I don't know if she will ever use her license again but right now she could, nobody is stopping her and if any parent were to try to check her out online no red flags would appear. It is unlikely that any charges in this case will be significant enough to have her investigated, competence assessed and counseling mandated. 
, 
As we all know the dogs are stuck in limbo. Darla could relinquish them but as of now she has not. There is only so much the court can do. Recently there was a well publicized case where a fool took a dog mountain climbing and left her on the mountain to die. A team of animal lovers rescued the dog and as a result of public pressure, Yeah Ellen, the owner relinquished the dog. I hope that the message that Darla gets loud and clear is that she must give up all those dogs and any plans she has for breeding dogs for profit. If she doesn't then she can rot in her cabin, as I hope Sandusky is rotting in his cell.


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## SnorPuddel

peppersb said:


> For those of you who are not fluent in Norwegian, here's a translation. It is from Google Translate, so probably not perfectly accurate.
> 
> Farewell
> 
> You are correct. My given name is Dagmar. I'm just as private as the rest of you. My name is Darla. I do not know Darla. I have not met her. My story is true.
> My first post I wrote of me. Later posting I used sell and language fixer. I think most of you heart sick idiots with your head up your ass. There are some of you speak with intelligence and some of you make good reference to angry manage classes.
> Then I go back to wondering. And looking for a new pudel. One with a good genetic background. Farewell not see you later you weak idiots.


The original post in Norwegian wasn't accurate either, it appeared to be someone whom used Google Translate to translate into Norwegian. The sentence structure and the words used are not right. Norway is a land of many different dialects and words and sentence structures change from location to location, but even with that, the post in Norwegian reads more like someone whom is trying to pose as a Norwegian and not someone whom speaks Norwegian. In school you learn 2 different types of Norwegian and I also speak in a northern dialect. I speak Norwegian daily, I maintain my Norwegian by reading online and watching movies and news in Norwegian, and by talking to friends still in Norway.
I showed this to my dad as well and he said the same as I, not a real Norwegian.
Dagmar also uses the word pudel for poodle, pudel is German and puddel is Norwegian, just like my screen name SnorPuddel which is what Norwegians call a corded poodle.

*Du er riktig. Min gitt navn er ikke Dagmar. Jeg er bare så privat som resten av du. Mitt navn er ikke Darla. Jeg ikke kjenne Darla. Jeg har ikke møtt henne. Min historien er sann.
Min første innlegget jeg skrev av meg. Senere kontering jeg brukte selger og språk problemløseren. Jeg tror de fleste er du hjerte syk idiotene med hodet opp ditt asen. Det er noen av dere snakke med intelligens og noen av du gjør gode henvisning til sint administrer klasser.
Så vil jeg gå tilbake å lurer. Og leter for en ny pudel. Ett med en god genetiske bakgrunn. Farvel ikke se du senere du skrøpelig idioter.*

Then we get to the name Dagmar. Dagmar is a girl's name and this person is speaking of having a wife and a daughter, so I am making the assumption that this person is a man and not a gay woman because in the following from post 75 they speak of shaving. Yes we women shave too, but we don't speak of getting a haircut and shave, that is more how a man thinks, in my opinion anyway



Dagmar said:


> I am Dagmar. A little bit more than a year ago I found this forum and have been avid reader. Now because of this thread I decide to join.
> Not long ago I had a wife and we had two pudels. We had a good life. Then my wife died. I stopped living. I could no longer care for my self or the dogs. I could feed everyone, I could make sure to let the dogs run in the field behind house. And sometimes I could clean up after the dogs.* I didn’t have ability to get my haircut or to shave* and the dogs didn’t get clipped. About a year after my wife died my daughter visited.


What happened in Republic to the poodles in Darla's care is very sad indeed. I am not going to try and figure out the why of it, there are always at least 3 versions of the truth, his, hers and what really happened.
I do think the pictures tell a sad story for the poodles, and I can't imagine of keeping Foxxy and Baldr in any of the areas where the poodles were shown in the pics.

I am thankful that the poodles are now in a safe place and getting the care they deserve. I hope that they get wonderful homes, their welfare is the most important thing.

Darla's work with PHR and diversity is separate from what happened at her home, she did great work and I am thankful to her for that. She has a lot of knowledge and she was always willing to share and for that I am also thankful.

I do not condone what happened to the poodles, and in an area such as Republic, in my opinion poodles should not live outside, the conditions are too extreme at times for that. Personally I can't imagine having my poodles anywhere but by my side, but that is me, we are all different, and having poodles live in a kennel or outside works for others.
I have gotten much flack for having a corded poodle, because people don't understand it (even poodle people), so I try not to judge what others do, especially if I have not seen it in person.

I wish the best for all those involved in this situation, the poodles and Darla.


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## liljaker

SnorPuddle - thank you for informing everyone regarding the translation. Google language tools are great, as many of us know, but definitely different than normal conversation. Again, it sounds like the poodles were rescued in time and I will bet they all end up in responsible homes.


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## roulette

I find it curious (about the posted video and others I have seen) that so many hoarding situations initiate as operating "rescues". I don't know the specific stats, but this seems much more the "norm" , as opposed to the overwhelmed breeder. Makes me wonder the effect of newly proposed APHIS rulings on these alleged rescue operations..are they also under watch and legislation pertaining to dog breeders? Will they have the same oversight and required compliance? This is NOT a slam to rescues in any way, I truly appreciate the dedication, love and financial needs of rescue organizations.

Sorry, kind of off topic... I just see this type of progression ("rescues" getting busted) almost weekly on the news here in KY, where poverty is high, property is cheap, and animal "trafficking" is prevalent. The economic downturn of the last decade and the droughts prevalent the last few years have truly affected our pet and horse populations dramatically, and as some of us point fingers at abusers and neglecters.. I can only thank God my critters are safe with me, and try not to judge but to help in any way I can. Blessings to those of this forum and other poodle folks who were able to contribute financially to Darla's dogs and their ongoing support.


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## CharismaticMillie

roulette said:


> I find it curious (about the posted video and others I have seen) that so many hoarding situations initiate as operating "rescues". I don't know the specific stats, but this seems much more the "norm" , as opposed to the overwhelmed breeder. Makes me wonder the effect of newly proposed APHIS rulings on these alleged rescue operations..are they also under watch and legislation pertaining to dog breeders? Will they have the same oversight and required compliance? This is NOT a slam to rescues in any way, I truly appreciate the dedication, love and financial needs of rescue organizations.
> 
> Sorry, kind of off topic... I just see this type of progression ("rescues" getting busted) almost weekly on the news here in KY, where poverty is high, property is cheap, and animal "trafficking" is prevalent. The economic downturn of the last decade and the droughts prevalent the last few years have truly affected our pet and horse populations dramatically, and as some of us point fingers at abusers and neglecters..


From the Tufts website on animal hoarding, a "rescue hoarder" is one of the main typologies of hoarders. "Overwhelmed caregiver (breeder)" is another typology.


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## Pluto

Virginia TheNurse said:


> maybe just MAYBE this might give a little bit of compassion to those who have been spewing venom sadly and crucifying this woman.........it is not an excuse, it is a reason for the behaviour..........I am saddened by the lack of compassion on some members part who apparently are completely without sin......it also angers me to see that kind of condemnation so quick.........it is a very myopic view to say that the dogs are the only ones who need help..........so sad:sad2:


What you are forgetting is that at long as a horder doesn't want help dealing with their issues, you cannot legally force it on them. All you can do it protect the animals once you have proven abuse, or enforce health and safety codes. As long as a horder is fighting to keep their animals they have not accepted that there is a problem and are not ready to change. VERY often if a horder gives up their animals and as receptive to help, there is no prosecution for the violations of health and safety/building codes, or animal abuse. Prosecution is used as a last ditch effort to stop abuse.

It's not a lack of compassion that calls for prosecution, it's to protect the animals, hopefully open an abusers eyes to the fact they need help, and if not- prohibit them from owning animals in the future to protect animals from a person that won't get help.


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## CharismaticMillie

Well said, Pluto! The whole post! 

Since we're on the topic, these are the approaches to intervention for animal hoarding.


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## VancouverBC

Keithsomething said:


> I'm not following your thought process...perhaps i am those things in the court of public opinion, but I do hope she gets a fair trial...though I also hope the prosecuting attorney does his/her best at making an example of this case


Thank-you for your response. I take your post as a willingness to learn and I respond in the same spirit to address your question about my thought process leading post #235 “OMG! accuser, prosecutor, jury, judge, and jailer all in Keithsomething?
” 
Although this reply is to Keithsomething, you/your is the universal you/your, not just directed at Keithsomething. There are others but I don’t care about them. I care about Keithsomething for he has the courage to ask.

To start, there is agreement a sad situation exists in front of the courts involving 29 dogs (15 pups) and a lady in the centre of the storm. There is agreement the dogs were seized in questionable conditions, conditions that we, as individuals cannot fathom. There is agreement for discussion of how people in this community can help advert similar situations. 

What makes this thread a train wreck is instead of working the problem, it has became all obout you, a rant about your standards, why this situation could never be you, what you don’t understand how, why, when, and a dogmatic campaign to condemnation a person ….. all about you. The situation is not about you. You have hi-jacked the sad situation to shine the light on you.

Others have, in a gentle respectful manner suggested, to keep working for some steps to address potential similar situations, that is, how to help other breeders, poodle owners, hoarders, … who are overcomed by their situation and how to help their dogs, even if just a respite, until the human regains control of himself/herself. This approach would have been invaluable to the poodle community beyond this forum.

For this sad situation, unless you are the person at the centre of the storm or family, you don’t know the facts. This is when human compassion is most needed. It is saying how can I help? . It is not saying my standards, my help only my way cause you are a bad person. It is not making excuses for the person or the situation.

Instead, what is here is train wreck with fighting words. 

Keithsomething, this is not reality TV. Lives are at stake. There are consequences for the lady at the centre of the storm and the 29 dogs. I suggest there may be consequences for you (global you) from your postings. First is your conscious, Second your credibility, Third is potential legal. 

Recently, in Vancouver, there were riots and looting over a hockey game. Folks twittered, fb, messaged about their involvement and the free stuff they got. Most have been outted and in front of the courts. Aside from the public humiliation and court sentence, they have lost much more. Life changing, because at the cross roads of decision making, in the passion of the moment, they chose the road to where they are now.

Many have cautioned you (global you). Realize what you put out in the public domain, remains even when you are dead and gone, and always has potential to bite you when you least expect it.

Keithsomething, as for your response about which breeder would let you adopt one of their puppies. I submit, any breeder reading your posts would have in the back of their minds, “if I one of my dogs go to Keithsomething, and something goes wrong, he would, most likely, based on his posts here, post disparaging remarks about me. Do I want to take that risk?”

It is up to you to chuck this where the sun don’t shine, give it some reflection and file it away, give it serious consideration, or mitigate your circumstances. Your choice. The rest of us are watching.

Some guesses about Keithsomething:
Young of body, young of mind, young at heart. Either independently wealthy or lives at home with parents. Probably lives at home. Not had to deal with life’s curve balls. Not in or have been in a committed relationship yet. Passionate about poodles. Willing to learn.

Some background about me - looking for a poodle
Mother of two Y gen children, a daughter who is a professor of piano performance/concert artist and a son who is Director of Marketing for a mid-sized international company (large for British Columbia). Grannie to two dogs, a Viszla and a rescued GSP (came aggressive, territorial, bites, no house manners … now sweet, affectionate little girl wanting to please all the time). 
I am an entrepreneur. Some volunteer - music festivals, martial arts competitions, Police Board member for 6 years, and for my industry - Board of Directors, Chair of Gov’t Relations Committee, Gov’t Relations Committee at the BC and Federal table, President.


----------



## CT Girl

SnorPuddle, thank you for your analysis of the Dagmar post. My Norwegian is not what it should be (meaning of course non-existent). I looked up Dagmar – I thought perhaps the name could be used for a man or a woman like Chris in English – but no, every reference is to a female. This thread just gets more and more bizarre. I don’t like a personal examination of someone unless they are intending to deceive as it appears Dagmar may be. If Keith is young and idealistic the more power to him. I truly believe his heart is in the right place and I understand and share his anger at the condition of those dogs. The somewhat older and world weary me can seek possible reasons neglect of dogs can happen but this never makes it OK. What I do find inspiring is the way the rescue and poodle people are coping with this sad situation.


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## Carley's Mom

I am a 50 year old woman, been on my own since I was 17, married 32 years with two children, one has a "personality disorder". I have lived through deaths of loved ones, marital problems, money issues ect. And forgive me if I have no compassion for animal abusers. I don't see any acceptable excuse and if that is hooting my own horn... hoot hoot.


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## PaddleAddict

VancouverBC said:


> Thank-you for your response. I take your post as a willingness to learn and I respond in the same spirit to address your question about my thought process leading post #235 “OMG! accuser, prosecutor, jury, judge, and jailer all in Keithsomething?
> ”
> Although this reply is to Keithsomething, you/your is the universal you/your, not just directed at Keithsomething. There are others but I don’t care about them. I care about Keithsomething for he has the courage to ask.
> 
> To start, there is agreement a sad situation exists in front of the courts involving 29 dogs (15 pups) and a lady in the centre of the storm. There is agreement the dogs were seized in questionable conditions, conditions that we, as individuals cannot fathom. There is agreement for discussion of how people in this community can help advert similar situations.
> 
> What makes this thread a train wreck is instead of working the problem, it has became all obout you, a rant about your standards, why this situation could never be you, what you don’t understand how, why, when, and a dogmatic campaign to condemnation a person ….. all about you. The situation is not about you. You have hi-jacked the sad situation to shine the light on you.
> 
> Others have, in a gentle respectful manner suggested, to keep working for some steps to address potential similar situations, that is, how to help other breeders, poodle owners, hoarders, … who are overcomed by their situation and how to help their dogs, even if just a respite, until the human regains control of himself/herself. This approach would have been invaluable to the poodle community beyond this forum.
> 
> For this sad situation, unless you are the person at the centre of the storm or family, you don’t know the facts. This is when human compassion is most needed. It is saying how can I help? . It is not saying my standards, my help only my way cause you are a bad person. It is not making excuses for the person or the situation.
> 
> Instead, what is here is train wreck with fighting words.
> 
> Keithsomething, this is not reality TV. Lives are at stake. There are consequences for the lady at the centre of the storm and the 29 dogs. I suggest there may be consequences for you (global you) from your postings. First is your conscious, Second your credibility, Third is potential legal.
> 
> Recently, in Vancouver, there were riots and looting over a hockey game. Folks twittered, fb, messaged about their involvement and the free stuff they got. Most have been outted and in front of the courts. Aside from the public humiliation and court sentence, they have lost much more. Life changing, because at the cross roads of decision making, in the passion of the moment, they chose the road to where they are now.
> 
> Many have cautioned you (global you). Realize what you put out in the public domain, remains even when you are dead and gone, and always has potential to bite you when you least expect it.
> 
> Keithsomething, as for your response about which breeder would let you adopt one of their puppies. I submit, any breeder reading your posts would have in the back of their minds, “if I one of my dogs go to Keithsomething, and something goes wrong, he would, most likely, based on his posts here, post disparaging remarks about me. Do I want to take that risk?”
> 
> It is up to you to chuck this where the sun don’t shine, give it some reflection and file it away, give it serious consideration, or mitigate your circumstances. Your choice. The rest of us are watching.
> 
> Some guesses about Keithsomething:
> Young of body, young of mind, young at heart. Either independently wealthy or lives at home with parents. Probably lives at home. Not had to deal with life’s curve balls. Not in or have been in a committed relationship yet. Passionate about poodles. Willing to learn.
> 
> Some background about me - looking for a poodle
> Mother of two Y gen children, a daughter who is a professor of piano performance/concert artist and a son who is Director of Marketing for a mid-sized international company (large for British Columbia). Grannie to two dogs, a Viszla and a rescued GSP (came aggressive, territorial, bites, no house manners … now sweet, affectionate little girl wanting to please all the time).
> I am an entrepreneur. Some volunteer - music festivals, martial arts competitions, Police Board member for 6 years, and for my industry - Board of Directors, Chair of Gov’t Relations Committee, Gov’t Relations Committee at the BC and Federal table, President.


You know, I don't know who you are. You seem to be very new to this forum.

Just and outsider's perspective from someone who does not know you and has no personal relationship with Keithsomething (in fact Keithsomething and I have disagreed here in the past). You are so quick to point out how you believe Kiethsomething comes across, I thought you might be curious to know how you come across. To me, you sound very self righteous and conceited. Perhaps you are not, but in your zeal to lambast Keith, this is how you come across. 

For the record, I do think Keith and the others here who are being unfairly accused of having no compassion for Darla are UPSET and worried about the dogs, as well as upset and disappointed about being "had" by Darla herself. No one is saying the woman did not have interesting and well-intentioned things to say, but while she spent hours on this and other websites, her dogs were outside neglected. That is (to me at least) a form of lying, even if it's in the cyber world. It is a great disappointment to all who believed Darla was a person who took care of her poodles. 

People are angry and I believe they have a right to be.


----------



## NOLA Standards

Thanks, Paddle Addict, for your (that would be the Global, Universal Your) response to the nauseum presented by Vancouver BC.

The Global Me appreciates your insight!

The Global Me does not care for self help gurus or those who are so self righteous the global me wants to hurl when subjected to them, whether in print or in (global) person.

R.E. this thread...

It is a train wreck

What has occured with Yadda and her dogs is a much bigger trainwreck.

Universally Yours,


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## zyrcona

Maximuspoodle said:


> Finally, this woman has an active license as a practical nurse. Right now, I cannot 100% confirm this but I am told she is unemployed. This concerns me greatly as I have patients who take small children home and rely on unsupervised home nursing care. I don't know if she will ever use her license again but right now she could, nobody is stopping her and if any parent were to try to check her out online no red flags would appear. It is unlikely that any charges in this case will be significant enough to have her investigated, competence assessed and counseling mandated.


I'm not sure I follow this. Are you saying that, because she has hoarded and neglected dogs (prosecution pending) this somehow negates her qualifications as a nurse and makes her a potential child molester? I don't follow that chain of logic myself. If she can't do her job properly, it's for her employers to decide. It's an entirely separate issue.

From what I understand she works as a psychiatric nurse. It was also my understanding from someone I spoke to that she had to travel a long way to her work and may have not gone home every day and this was (in one version of events, not naming names or making any assumptions of veracity) the main reason for the dogs' neglect. There seem to be different rumours going around.

At the end of all these court cases and any fines or prison sentences, the perpetrator eventually has to rebuild something of their life and earn a living. It is extremely difficult to get on in the world if there is an online hate campaign attached to your name that claims you are 'evil' and that you deserve to be locked in a room with no clothes and no toilet and starved to death for what you have done, and other such silly things. Most criminal records don't have to be disclosed after a certain time has elapsed, but what goes on the Internet, stays on the Internet. I suggest people think very carefully before they write things on a public forum, particularly those who have made their identities easy to trace. The Internet is in many ways a wonderful thing, but why anyone would use their legal name anywhere on the Internet for anything is beyond me.

I know a man who is a sex offender and has been to jail for his crimes. He is not some anorak-clad, leering letch with fidgety fingers and thick spectacles as most would probably imagine a sex offender to look like. He is a tall, elegant chap with a personable, charming manner whom I imagine a lot of ladies find rather enticing. It's very difficult for him to get work doing anything much, and he has changed his name in an attempt to escape his reputation. Unfortunately he didn't change it very much from the old name, and now websites are starting to appear outing him as his old identity. This person presumably regrets the errors of his past and has paid for them in jail. He can't go back in time and change what he did, and because of what people are doing on the Internet he can't move on. Someone has a right to a normal life without fear of being terrorised and persecuted and made into a pariah. There are such things as being discreet and having a quiet word instead of flooding Google search results with hate.


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## liljaker

Does anyone know what the purpose of this thread has become? It appears that long ago it ceased to be about the dogs which were neglected and had to be taken away from the owner. Honestly, I just hope the poodles get a good life and I hope Darla deals with whatever demons she has that allowed this to happen. And, let's hope she takes up something like knitting or scrapbooking instead of breeding poodles.


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## Keithsomething

the purpose of this thread for me even NOW has to do with the poodles! I want those animals SAFE and I hope they remain that way and out of the hands of ANYONE that will put them through more tragedy and heart break!


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## flyingpoodle

liljaker said:


> Does anyone know what the purpose of this thread has become? It appears that long ago it ceased to be about the dogs which were neglected and had to be taken away from the owner. Honestly, I just hope the poodles get a good life and I hope Darla deals with whatever demons she has that allowed this to happen. And, let's hope she takes up something like knitting or scrapbooking instead of breeding poodles.


Purpose of thread: debriefing on traumatic situation. Different people have been traumatized in different ways by this. Someone pointed out that forums are for discussion, and yes, this one has gone in several directions, but the common thread is people working through emotions. I do think that some valuable points have been raised, like the role of compassion and the role of public opinion versus court justice. 

My trauma issues raised are having dealt with a rescued poodle, twelve years of trying to overcome his early trauma, and having to deal with people misrepresenting themselves in my work. I have been irrationally obsessed with following this, I donated money immediately, and yes, I felt the need to point out that one of the commenters may be misrepresenting themselves. (and yes, I am a bit suspicious of another one, but it doesn't really matter in the long run, does it?) 

The people pointing out that the people posting are revealing more about themselves than about darla: obviously. I would like to reveal that I am more along the keep it civil but keep it going camp, I don't particularly find it helpful when people try to shut down discussion on a discussion board, except for the people who pointed out that it could have specific legal ramifications. That is germane and important. And the uncivil posts attacking other people's character are at this point in the vast minority and I can easily ignore them. 

And Darla- not being sarcastic like the person I quoted, if you should in fact want to take up knitting, I like it as much as poodles! Always happy to help.

Thanks to everyone who donated, it was so amazing to see that the shelter has enough resources for now! When do you ever hear that?


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## Carley's Mom

I too have gotten a bit too emotional on this thread... hooting instead of tooting...lol I can't even change it , my edit button is gone. 

I am glad that people on this forum care enough and give enough for the dogs in need. I only want the best for each of them, my heart cries for mistreated animals and I got caught up in it, typing faster than I was thinking. I think we all agree that we hate that this happened and we hope to never see it again.


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## Countryboy

Carley's Mom said:


> I too have gotten a bit too emotional on this thread... hooting instead of tooting...lol


Lol, CM. As have most of us... We're all human, eh?


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## liljaker

First of all I was not being sarcastic -- don't speak for me. I meant it. Find something else other than dealing with other animal lives -- knitting and scrapbooking would be two I would suggest. I stand by it and make no excuses and would say it again. Just look at those pictures and look at the condition the animals lived in.


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## liljaker

And it's great that you can teach her to knit if that's her choice!


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## outwest

As far as Darla spending hours on the internet. Don't many of us, myself included? She lives in a very remote area. I don't think the fact she uses the internet means a thing. 

I do want to say something that has been bugging me and may not be popular: 

How come nobody has lambasted the poodle rescue Darla tried to get help from a year or so ago? They could have worked with her, helped out the poodles, earned her trust and ensured her remaining poodles were happy and safe. How can they call themselves a rescue when they refused to rescue because it was "all or none". If they had taken even one of those poodles, that poodle wouldn't be where he is right now. 

They failed both the dogs Darla tried to give up and Darla herself.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

liljaker said:


> Does anyone know what the purpose of this thread has become?


I hope that this thread has and will continue to *educate* many people. This is a sad story and I hope that some good can come from this one day!

Each one of us can take different messages from the same posts.

The internet allows us to be someone who we may not be. Just like the Brad Paisley song Online where he sings about be 6 inches taller _online_. 

Use common sense when buying or selling a living thing. 

I hope that the rescued dogs are spayed and neutered and placed in homes where they will be loved forever.


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## outwest

Yes, so true Rayah. A voice of reason.


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## peppersb

outwest said:


> I want to say something that has been bugging me and may not be popular:
> 
> How come nobody has lambasted the poodle rescue Darla tried to get help from a year or so ago?! SHAME on the poodle rescue for not helping her!!!! They could have worked with her, helped out the poodles, earned her trust and ensured her remaining poodles were happy and safe. How can they call themselves a rescue when they refused to rescue because it was "all or none". That mentality is so shortsighted and reeks of powerstruggle. It reminds me of the rescue who wouldn't let a single woman adopt because she was living with a boyfriend. If they had taken even ONE of those poodles, that poodle wouldn't be where he is right now. This could have had such a different ending.
> 
> Does anyone know which rescue it was? I would love to give them a piece of my mind because to me they failed both the poor poodles Darla tried to give up and Darla herself.


Not sure I agree with you Outwest. The strategy of refusing to take some dogs if you can't have all of them is one that would not have occurred to me. But I have no experience or expertise in dealing with these things. Seems like taking some dogs might have been enabling a bad situation to continue, so maybe refusing to do that was a good idea. But maybe not. I think it is very hard for us to know how this should have been handled. And frankly, we don't know a whole lot about how it actually was handled. Was there a history of communication between Darla and the rescue? Who said what, and when? Could the rescue have taken a better approach that would have produced a better result? Whether they did the right thing in refusing to take some dogs (if that's what they did) is a pretty complex issue and depends on lots of facts that we just don't know.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

outwest said:


> I want to say something that has been bugging me and may not be popular:
> 
> How come nobody has lambasted the poodle rescue Darla tried to get help from a year or so ago? Shame on them for not helping her. They could have worked with her, helped out the poodles, earned her trust and ensured her remaining poodles were happy and safe. How can they call themselves a rescue when they refused to rescue because it was "all or none". If they had taken even one of those poodles, that poodle wouldn't be where he is right now. They failed both the dogs Darla tried to give up and Darla herself. This could have had such a different ending.


Dear Outwest;

If you take dogs from a breeder you are not rescuing the dogs you are just enabling the breeder. With a breeder it should be an *all or nothing stance* otherwise you are just condemning more poodles to suffer the same fate.

A good read for those who think "rescue" means any dog in need of a new home. A pet store puppy is no different than the ones in this situation.

*Pet Store Puppy*

I'm a little puppy, so cuddly, sweet and small.
I live inside a cage you see, at the pet store in the mall.
I'm not an only puppy, my sisters are all here.
My brothers too, except for Ralph, who died cause he was scared.

It's lonely here at nighttime. when all the lights go dark.
We tremble in our cages, we wimper and we bark.
But no one comes to hold us, or pet our fears away.
We sit all night in terror, 'til the pet store opens next day.

We don't remember Mama, left so far behind.
She did the best she could for us, 'til Man said "It is time."
He crammed us all in cages, too small for us, you see.
We rode for hours; we could not help but lay in poop and pee.

And now we sit in the pet store, where kids come to taunt and squeeze.
They do not hear our wimpers, or understand our pleas.
We're miserable and it's scary here, we all would rather die.
But since we don't, we do our best to run away and hide.

I know you think me story too sad to leave me be,
You want to take me home with you; a happy little puppy.
But please, though it is fearful to live here against our will,
If you take me, that leaves a spot another pup will fill.

You can stop our suffering, not by taking us home.
You must be strong and leave us here, unsold and all alone.
For if you do not take me, then another pup won't come.
And maybe he will not be shipped so far away from home.

Though some of us may not survive, the cycle 'ere it falls.
If we don't sell, they will not need more puppies in these halls.
And if they need no puppies, the the Man will not bring more.
Eventually it can all stop! You CAN close the door.

So when you see a puppy's face, so sad and sweet and small
In a cage at the pet store, at your neighborhood shopping mall,
The best thing you can do for him is leave him sitting there.
That is the best way you can tell all dogs, just how much you care.


Written by Amy Butcher


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## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> To me, you sound very self righteous and conceited. Perhaps you are not, but in your zeal to lambast Keith, this is how you come across.


I'm not sure this is a really fair statement. And maybe not worth paying much attention to. Coz to me, u've always sounded overly angry, preachy and opinionated. Perhaps u are not, but in your zeal to lambaste VancouverBC, this is how u come across.


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## PaddleAddict

Countryboy said:


> I'm not sure this is a really fair statement. And maybe not worth paying much attention to. Coz to me, u've always sounded overly angry, preachy and opinionated. Perhaps u are not, but in your zeal to lambaste VancouverBC, this is how u come across.


I stand by my comment.

And I don't care what you of all people think about me.


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## Maximuspoodle

*Hate campaign = adios poodle forum*

Another newbie is packing up. I won't go out with the same verbal flair as Dagmar but I do have a couple comments. 

First, Kevinsomething you are a great guy, keep the passion. Don't let VancouverBC or as I suspect she prefers to be called Madame President, get under your skin. She provided a tired group of residents a good laugh during some downtime today, and a good belly laugh is sometimes really appreciated. Nola Standards you nailed it! We had tears in our eyes. 

I did join this forum by entering into a pretty heated discussion about a member who was and apparently still is held in high regard by some people. I put my opinion out there and had no problem with some of the comments that other members found 'rude', although I do appreciate some coming to my defense. The deal breaker for me, and why I am leaving, is I won't be apart of a forum where someone alludes to tracking me on the internet and accuses me of launching an online hate campaign. 

QUOTE zyrcona 

"At the end of all these court cases and any fines or prison sentences, the perpetrator eventually has to rebuild something of their life and earn a living. It is extremely difficult to get on in the world if there is an online hate campaign attached to your name that claims you are 'evil' and that you deserve to be locked in a room with no clothes and no toilet and starved to death for what you have done, and other such silly things. Most criminal records don't have to be disclosed after a certain time has elapsed, but what goes on the Internet, stays on the Internet. I suggest people think very carefully before they write things on a public forum, particularly those who have made their identities easy to trace. The Internet is in many ways a wonderful thing, but why anyone would use their legal name anywhere on the Internet for anything is beyond me."

When I was first approached about this rescue I did not know the breeder. I have been around the rescue world for a long time so when I started asking questions I easily got her name and googled it. I came up with lots of poodle stuff, her professional status but nothing negative, despite all the facts I came to know about the case. I was able to find several places online where Darla was still offering poodles for sale. Absolutely nobody trying to do due diligence would have been able to discover what was well known to insiders. I did respond to the email address for Yadda had posted on one of these sites and told her pretty much what I have said here and I signed my real name. If Darla in turn wants to email that letter with my name attached to her friends so be it, but nowhere online or in that letter will anyone find the accusations directed at me by Zycrona. 

If anyone wants to contact me Keithsomething has my contact addy. I agree and applaud his position to shine the light on the truth. News reports will come out, too late sadly for many honest people that were sold one of Darla's mill dogs and or duped by her. At least in the future those who try will have at least a chance to avoid being burned by someone who has worked very hard to establish and propogate a fantasy online. May she never sell another dog.


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## outwest

peppersby and Rayah, I understand what you're saying and I don't know the whole scenario, but if they felt they needed to take all the dogs to shut her down tell me why it took someone in another state to ask for a welfare check?


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## tortoise

I find every part of the situation sad. I did not follow this person on the forum and have no prior opionion or feeling of deception. Neglect of kept animals is inexcusable. At the same time I can imagine her heartbreak and anger.

*From what I understand* (which may not be completely right), if mental illness is a partial or full reason for why this person became unable or unwilling to care for all of her dogs, taking away all of the dogs is an imperfect solution. If she does not get treatment for the root cause, she will quickly acquire another pet or attachment item and the cycle is likely to repeat. However, if she is allowed to _conditionally_ keep 1_ altered _dog and is required to receive treatment, she would be far less likely to relapse in the future.

I had not read this thread before tonight. I'm going to go give my little sleepy dog a hug. And I'll probably post more photos and videos. I sometimes have controversial opinions and if you can (literally) see where it's coming from it may help you agree (or disagree) more strongly with me. I am unsettled by discovering that anything is not what it appeared to be. I am thankful I do not have that sense of distrust at this time. I also look forward to meeting some PF folks "in real life".


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## zyrcona

Maximuspoodle said:


> someone alludes to tracking me on the internet and accuses me of launching an online hate campaign.


I was referring to the general public's hate campaign and the ridiculous comments I found on Facebook and other places while trying to find information about the case, often involving people using their real names. The comment of yours I was responding to was one I couldn't quite follow that seemed to be questioning the accused person's ability to do her job and be near children. TBH I assumed you were just another sock puppet.


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## Countryboy

Maximuspoodle said:


> Another newbie is packing up. I won't go out with the same verbal flair as Dagmar but I do have a couple comments.


I'll not include yr 'couple of comments' 'coz, coming from someone with 11 TOTAL posts in this forum, they don't really count with me. It was good to get our initial animosity at least 'understood' in PMs, but then it went back downhill.

It's too bad to see u go . . or to see ANYBODY go . . but this last post of yrs *and Dagmar's* was a flounce, IMO... and may be subject to a complete ban from PF anyway.

........................................................................

But I don't know where some of PF's recent newbies got their education on 'forums'. A forum is a group of people exchanging ideas, and tips, and pictures, and thru this exchange we get to know each other... a bit, at least. We learn a little abt each other and, from that, know who's opinions to respect, or question, or even disagree with.

Newbies maybe should know that they cannot arrive in a forum and immediately claim to speak with the same authourity as other members that we have known for years. IMO, it's presumptuous... to say the least. 

In the case of newbies in general *this goes as a 'heads up' to others who might join PF on account of this thread* to walk in here unknown and start slagging a member who's views we know, is not only presumptuous, but approaching 'nasty'. And tells me more abt themselves than their comments tell me abt the member I already know. It tells me that I might not really wanna 'get to know u' any further. 

Also people, fer Dawgs sake, develop a thicker skin! I've been in forums where the words 'pansy' and '******' are tossed around like popcorn. U've got to learn how to react to them. Direct insults are not allowed in PF... so u won't have to ignore that kind of stuff... but to assume that comments on the nature of the 'search-ability' of the internet are directed at u personally??? ....is laffable. 

Having said all that, it's not a good thing to have ANY opinions and expertise leave the forum. But newbies coming in here 'hot' and then flouncing back out again just makes me smh.... :confused3:


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## Dog catcher

zyrcona said:


> I'm not sure I follow this. Are you saying that, because she has hoarded and neglected dogs (prosecution pending) this somehow negates her qualifications as a nurse and makes her a potential child molester? I don't follow that chain of logic myself. If she can't do her job properly, it's for her employers to decide. It's an entirely separate issue.
> 
> From what I understand she works as a psychiatric nurse. It was also my understanding from someone I spoke to that she had to travel a long way to her work and may have not gone home every day and this was (in one version of events, not naming names or making any assumptions of veracity) the main reason for the dogs' neglect. There seem to be different rumours going around.
> 
> At the end of all these court cases and any fines or prison sentences, the perpetrator eventually has to rebuild something of their life and earn a living. It is extremely difficult to get on in the world if there is an online hate campaign attached to your name that claims you are 'evil' and that you deserve to be locked in a room with no clothes and no toilet and starved to death for what you have done, and other such silly things. Most criminal records don't have to be disclosed after a certain time has elapsed, but what goes on the Internet, stays on the Internet. I suggest people think very carefully before they write things on a public forum, particularly those who have made their identities easy to trace. The Internet is in many ways a wonderful thing, but why anyone would use their legal name anywhere on the Internet for anything is beyond me.
> 
> I know a man who is a sex offender and has been to jail for his crimes. He is not some anorak-clad, leering letch with fidgety fingers and thick spectacles as most would probably imagine a sex offender to look like. He is a tall, elegant chap with a personable, charming manner whom I imagine a lot of ladies find rather enticing. It's very difficult for him to get work doing anything much, and he has changed his name in an attempt to escape his reputation. Unfortunately he didn't change it very much from the old name, and now websites are starting to appear outing him as his old identity. This person presumably regrets the errors of his past and has paid for them in jail. He can't go back in time and change what he did, and because of what people are doing on the Internet he can't move on. Someone has a right to a normal life without fear of being terrorised and persecuted and made into a pariah. There are such things as being discreet and having a quiet word instead of flooding Google search results with hate.


So you are telling us she is a nurse who sometimes is away from home for extended periods of time, even over night, due to her work schedule, yet she decided to become a breeder of of a breed of dogs known to be very high maintenance? 
This is not indicative of the kind of rational thinking I require of a nurse caring for me, my family and especially my children.


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## outwest

Tortoise, I am of the same mind to let a person in this situaton keep one dog or even two, both altered. The problem here was 29 dogs, TWENTY NINE! Poodles are a very high maintenance breed. If anyone has more than a handful it can quickly become a fulltime job just caring for them. If the dogs were only thought of as inventory then there is no attachment or thought to them, but I have a hard time entirely believing there was no love. Being overwhelmed I can see - puppies weren't sold and grew up over and over. One or two would be manageable, but the entire story with a full picture would be necessary for the courts to decide if that would be feasable. 

Does anyone know what happened with the owner of the Belcanto dogs? It is almost the same exact scenario: breeding for diversity, etcetera. I never heard the end of that one. Was she allowed to keep one or two dogs?


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## tortoise

outwest said:


> Tortoise, I am of the same mind to let a person in this situaton keep one dog or even two, both altered. The problem here was 29 dogs, TWENTY NINE! Poodles are a very high maintenance breed. If anyone has more than a handful it can quickly become a fulltime job just caring for them. If the dogs were only thought of as inventory then there is no attachment or thought to them, but I have a hard time entirely believing there was no love. Being overwhelmed I can see - puppies weren't sold and grew up over and over. One or two would be manageable, but the entire story with a full picture would be necessary for the courts to decide if that would be feasable.
> 
> Does anyone know what happened with the owner of the Belcanto dogs? It is almost the same exact scenario: breeding for diversity, etcetera. I never heard the end of that one. Was she allowed to keep one or two dogs?


A few of the dogs were groomed and socialized. So she has some capacity to properly care for a dog.

I cannot imagine having 29 dogs alone! Especially not poodles! If I had no way out and no way to get help they would end up looking like that - and not for lack of caring.

I worked at a highly respected breeding kennel for German Shepherds. We had an average of 20 adults and a couple of litters per year. And there was a full-time kennel manager, a full-time kennel employee and at least 2 part-time kennel employees, plus at least one full-time groundskeeper. 

I often worked 12 hour days, and there was never a moment wasted between food prep, cleaning, walking dogs, training, grooming.... It was a huge amount of work. It's worth noting that most of these dogs lived primarily outside, although every dog got daily time inside and training.

Having just as many dogs - but poodles! - while working full-time and having no help....

Well we can only guess how it happened, but I don't think I could do much different except accept help. I have a lot of forgiveness for people with mental illnesses. But I don't have the same forgiveness if simply pride and refusal to seek/accept help were the cause.

What if you are a breeder. You have a high-maintenance breed and inevitably some puppies don't sell. You ask for help from a rescue to find homes, but they refuse to help without taking away the dogs that you are able to care for. Perhaps she asked for help and it was refused to her?

So lesson learned: this is why you don't breed until you have non-refundable deposits for 6 puppies or your average litter size. If you can put all of your puppies into homes promptly, would this happen?

I am looking back and realize I am assuming the cared-for dogs are her breeding dogs and the un-cared-for dogs are offspring that were not sold.

I guess I'm out of this conversation. We could hypothesize endlessly. What happened to the dogs is not right. But I find myself unable to judge her. I hope there is a peaceful ending for her, all of the dogs, and for the rescue that is taking care of the dogs.


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## peppersb

outwest said:


> Does anyone know what happened with the owner of the Belcanto dogs? It is almost the same exact scenario: breeding for diversity, etcetera. I never heard the end of that one. Was she allowed to keep one or two dogs?


The following is from this page:

http://www.nppmwatch.com/NEWS/August10News.html

08-25-10 -- Breeder Admits Cruelty, Operating Illegal Kennel
By: Jo Ciavaglia, Bucks County Courier Times

A former Solebury woman will pay $6,400 in restitution and fines for operating an illegal kennel inside a rented home under a plea agreement that settles the 4-month-old case and releases most of the poodles for adoption. 

Grace Lossman, 62, who no longer lives in Pennsylvania, pleaded guilty Tuesday before District Judge Maggie Snow to eight counts of cruelty to animals, operating an illegal kennel and continuing to operate a kennel without a license. 

She was fined $1,400 for those violations and ordered to pay another $5,000 in restitution to the Bucks County SPCA, which has cared for the poodles since they were removed. 

The SPCA, Solebury police and state Bureau of Dog Law Enforcement raided the house in the 3100 block of Aquetong Road in April and found more than 35 dogs, puppies and one cat living in unsanitary and inhumane conditions. The property was operated as an illegal kennel under the name Belcanto Standard Poodles. 

Thirty-four standard poodles and the cat were taken during the raid and found to be in fair health. State law requires anyone with more than 25 dogs on their premises to have a kennel license. 

A computer professional, Lossman said earlier this year that she raised "highly skilled performance dogs." She said she occasionally would sell a puppy to "a very good person," but that the dogs were her pets. 

Lossman was allowed to keep the four oldest dogs and the cat under the settlement, said Anne Irwin, director of the Bucks County SPCA. 

Seven dogs under Lossman's care were returned to their owners and all but nine of the remaining dogs can be adopted by families that have been waiting since April to take them home, Irwin said. 

Belacanto is back in business selling dogs in NJ, and there are dogs in poodlepedigree.com that have 2011 birthdates. 

IMO, we need strong state and national laws to protect dogs from abusive breeders.


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## Keithsomething

This is what I'm saying...the Belcanto case is slightly similar to the Whispering Pinesncase and this case...these people are given a slap on the wrist a marginal fine and then allowed to do whatever they want to dogs again in a year or so...BECAUSE everyone takes such a passive role in this we allow them to purchase more dogs to neglect and improperly care for. I for one will not be passive about it


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Keithsomething said:


> This is what I'm saying...the Belcanto case is slightly similar to the Whispering Pinesncase and this case...these people are given a slap on the wrist a marginal fine and then allowed to do whatever they want to dogs again in a year or so...BECAUSE everyone takes such a passive role in this we allow them to purchase more dogs to neglect and improperly care for. I for one will not be passive about it


If by not being *passive* about this you mean: if you see these people on a list or being talked about on a list you speak up about their past behaviour in selling poodles *I am with you*.

The best way to prevent these issues is to make sure we educate buyers!!!!!!

P.S. Did that US law allowing only 4 intact bitches in a home pass?


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## Keithsomething

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> If by not being *passive* about this you mean: if you see these people on a list or being talked about on a list you speak up about their past behaviour in selling poodles *I am with you*.
> 
> The best way to prevent these issues is to make sure we educate buyers!!!!!!
> 
> P.S. Did that US law allowing only 4 intact bitches in a home pass?


That is absolutely what I mean! I know it seems like I'm trying to crucify this woman...but that's NOT my intentions I just want EVERYONE to know that this has happened and what she is capable of!

The Belcanto woman is breeding again, Katie Dokken will be allowed to own dogs in a few weeks/months, because NO ONE has paid these cases attention once they left the lime light. I find society as a whole tends to do that, out of sight out of mind...well FOR ME that won't happen this time! If I have to follow and hound I will, through out all of this I haven't lied or implied anything just simple facts everyone has available to them and I will continue to do that and I will continue to post those facts...


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## CT Girl

Keith, thank you for bringing up these shameful cases. I just looked them up as they were before my time on the forum and the thought of them breeding dogs again is shameful. Hopefully your post will be seen by many and people will not buy their dogs. The laws need to changed and we need to keep reminding people what has happened.


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## TrinaBoo

I had not heard of those either. I looked up the Katie Dokken case and it brought tears to my eyes....those poor dogs were living in h*ll. The thought of her or anyone who has harmed animals in that way to be able to own another living creature is absurd! If they love the dogs so much then they need to be helping at the rescue that actually cared for their dogs. That to me makes more sense than just a fine. 

I truly hope some of the rescuers of those dogs and puppies find their way to Poodle Forum and share their new lives! : )


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## Countryboy

Keith... do carry on being passionate. But not too passionate. 

U are firmly entrenched in the 'show' world. The world that has done more harm to the Poodle breed than any other part of it. 

It was not hunters looking for a partner dog that created the Wycliffe bottleneck, nor me looking for something hypo-allergenic that inbred our dogs soooo severely that all now have unacceptable COIs. And the Wycliffe influence has nothing to do with kids looking for a pet.

It was yr show world alone that is *singularly* responsible for creating this bottleneck . . that almost eliminated all other lines of Poodles except those from this ONE kennel. The show world did that . . . nobody else.

And the show world continues to blindly perpetuate this continuous limiting of genes in search of 'pretty'! Not healthy, not happy, not a companion... but simply pretty... like, good for the show ring.

"I guess I'm in the same boat as everyone else...because I just don't see the diversity these dogs offer, if you look at this dogs and are able to see past the HORRID condition they're in, you'll see dogs that look more like curly coated retrievers than poodles...just because something is "diverse" doesn't mean its any healthier than a heavily bred wycliffe dog! (and they're for sure not prettier!!)"

But u know what??? 

I DON"T CARE how curly Tonka's coat is... or how 'pretty" he is... or what kind of a 'front' he has. Only the stuck-up, stuffed-shirt snobs *pretty much a universal view of the Confirmation ring by the public in general* in the show ring are looking for a 'front'. Tonka was too lanky for the show ring, so his genes were automatically eliminated *neutered" from the breed. 'Cos he was not 'pretty' enuf. And he was only one of hundreds of Poodles . . if not thousands . . that were automatically neutered and consigned to the 'pet category'. Coz they weren't 'pretty' enuf. 

All I'm looking for is a dog that will not affect my grandson's allergies. And I have one. But, because of inbreeding for the conformation ring I have one who is epileptic, and has bloated. Thanks for that, show people.  And I'll thank u in advance for all the kids, for the next hundred or more years, that are looking for a healthy, happy Poodle . . . but can't find one. Only unhealthy dogs . . . but ones with 'great fronts'. 

And, if u or anybody else, would like to continue this discussion, this is not all I have to say on the subject of the harm done to this breed, by NO ONE else but the show breeders.


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## Fluffyspoos

No, your dog bloated because it's a deep chested breed, that could literally happen in ANY line.


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## papoodles

*Off topic.sorry*

"The research also revealed that, before 1975, canine bloat was relatively rare. Then an epidemic occurred. "For about 10 years, there was a rapid rise in the frequency of bloat among specific breeds; it went up almost 800 percent, though we're not certain why," Dr. Glickman said. "One theory is a change in diet - either composition or formulation - over that time."
Is Your Dog at Risk for Bloat?

Fluffy.. I am not a breeder, but besides changes in diet, couldn't breeding practices have something to do with this huge increase?


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## peppersb

Fluffyspoos said:


> No, your dog bloated because it's a deep chested breed, that could literally happen in ANY line.


While any standard poodle from any line has some risk of bloat, many experts believe that bloat is heritable. IOW dogs that come from lines that have a lot of bloat are more likely to bloat than dogs that don't. That means that breeders should examine pedigrees for bloat and avoid breeding dogs with close relatives who have bloated. 

I think Country Boy makes a good point. Health and genetic diversity are important for lots of reasons. In their zeal to produce prefect conformation, some show breeders may have made breeding decisions that produce lines that are nice looking but not healthy.


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## Indiana

Well, this thread has become a very interesting debate on a variety of issues! I might as well chime in! Countryboy, I don't think any one endeavour (like showing) in the world of poodles is necessarily to blame, but breeding in a narrow-minded way to achieve one outcome to the detriment of others often is. It's the ripple effect. One example is, breeding to win shows didn't create the extreme physical standards for dog like greyhounds and it sure didn't create the crushing power of a pit bull's jaws...that was the market for racing and dogfighting. (I have nothing against those breeds, I love greyhounds and owned the world's sweetest pit bull) Whatever breeders hope to achieve in their lines has to take into consideration all other possible uses of their dogs, like hunting or herding, to create a balanced version of their breed. Health testing at least ensures that whatever the dogs look like, they are still functional and healthy. And showing provides the opportunity for others to see the results of their breeding program. Plus, might I say shows are ridiculously fun and I love them, ha,ha.


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## Keithsomething

Countryboy, I think you've misintrepreted quite a bit when it comes to show breeders and anyone else that choses to call themselves breeders when they do not show (really they're greeders...seeing as they do noting but allow their dogs to play on a patio all day -.-) 

Did show breeders cause the Wycliffe bottleneck...maybe, but that means NOTHING in the long run of things. There are plenty of BYB's producing animals with low Coi's and low wycliffe numbers that ALSO have health issues...jesus even one of Darla's precious low wycliffe dogs was JUST diagnosed with SA while she STILL had a litter of puppies from the bitch! (to Darla's credit she did not sell the puppies to the public) still these health issues are in the breed NOT because of show breeders but because people chose to remain blind and stupid about it!

A member of this forum Tux (some of you may remember that thread ;D) owns a black standard with epilepsy out of a red (low wycliffe high puppymill pedigree) and a brown (low wycliffe) the dogs in that pedigree were NOT shown and none of their descendants have achieved any titles worth note either...yet ALL the blame is thrown at the show breeders door step? here i'll post a link to the dogs pedigree ^_^ and his PHR site...

Raven's PHR Link

(ravens Wycliffe percentage is 31.2% according to PHR, which is substantially lower for a black than the normal 40%)


also heres a link where I acted like a complete fool in a thread...but it covers Tux's battle with the epilepsy and the way she was left to hang out and dry by people who believe their animals should be still be in the gene pool -.-

Epilepsy thread

_______________

Another example! Fluffyspoos bitch Vienna is from a BYB, Vienna's full sibling (litter mate kat?) bloated, and another has epilepsy...these dogs are NOT from show lines, and have low wycliffe numbers so how does that correlate?!

(this is Vienna's pedigree)
Vienna

____

and to close this LONG reply...i'll add that i stand by what I said, I believe in diversity...because once these lines are lost theres no getting them back...however I believe in breeding true to the breed standard as well, if you want a hypoallergenic dog that looks like a curly coated retriever...get one -.- PWDs, IWS's, etc. there are PLENTY of unrefined breeds that have the same coat texture and people tend to react less to their allergens as well...so WHY do we need to breed animals that are hideous? Dogs with heads that couldn't even do the things they were bred to do, becasue they're to heavy to swim with...or dogs that don't have the proper arm angulation to swim?! or dogs that possess tail sets so low that the pelvic bone prevents them from leaping into the water the appropriate way?!

Every time I see "show" breeder bashing on this forum i just shake my head...because if it weren't for "show" breeders you wouldn't even HAVE a standard poodle in your home today


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I have seen photos just this morning of Tux's white boy who DOES come from show lines, and from the photos and info, it would appear he has sebceous adenitis. So show lines are not immune to all kinds of health issues.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

To those of you who are interested, try and find the Dogs in Canada issue that features the top show dogs in Canada. Check out the Standard Poodles. Then go to PHR and look at their vertical pedigrees. Some of the most terrifying things I have ever seen in Poodles are behind most of these dogs. There were two who I would consider a puppy from. The rest...their offspring are ticking time bombs.


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## Keithsomething

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have seen photos just this morning of Tux's white boy who DOES come from show lines, and from the photos and info, it would appear he has sebceous adenitis. So show lines are not immune to all kinds of health issues.


No one said they were re read it, I'm curious how raven is doing with his epilepsy as Holly's owner would you know?


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## Olie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have seen photos just this morning of Tux's white boy who DOES come from show lines, and from the photos and info, it would appear he has sebceous adenitis. So show lines are not immune to all kinds of health issues.


Tux does have SA actually a mild case however his breeder was upfront AND refused any litter mates be bred - this is a FACT unlike some ^^ that continue to breed their problems into bigger ones. 

Just because your breeding was called out you chose this breeders situation? Somethings never change!
This is WHY you have the reputation you do!


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## Fluffyspoos

Keithsomething said:


> Another example! Fluffyspoos bitch Vienna is from a BYB, Vienna's full sibling (litter mate kat?) bloated, and another has epilepsy...these dogs are NOT from show lines, and have low wycliffe numbers so how does that correlate?!
> 
> (this is Vienna's pedigree)
> Vienna


I gave Keith full permission to post this, however, I wanted to add that she was a rescue and a totally free dog! I wouldn't have bought from her breeder! Ha!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I am not calling anyone out. This is about show lines/non show lines and I am pointing out, one can have a puppy from show lines with health issues too.

Holly will be nine in December and continues to be as healthy as a horse. Raven was not one of my breeding, but the litter was bred by Cantope, so I am not at all privy to how Raven is doing at this time. I do know however that of his full and half siblings (39 other pups in total) that there has not been one other reported (to the breeder OR PHR) case of seizure disorder. So perhaps you were right Keithsomething, months ago, when you were "foolish" that there are many reasons that this sole puppy of forty full and half siblings came down with this dreaded affliction.


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## Keithsomething

But you're privy to how Tux is doing...when it didn't come from a dog you currently own? Curious how that works isn't it


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

That's right, it is. There is a new group on FB and we have been discussing some lines and Tux's misfortune became a subject discussion. I would not have known otherwise, as I have no contact with his owner or his breeder.


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## Chagall's mom

eace2lease folks, _please, please, please_, let's put the focus back onto the *29 poodles in rescue with uncertain futures*! Maybe start a new thread on diversity or jump over to PM's? Really, for the sake of the poodles,_ pretty please_!


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## CT Girl

It does not have to be one or the other, show or performance. Swizzle's line has show and agility champions. Both aspects add value to the breed. Any puppy can have health issues even with a low COI and low wycliffe, show dog, performance dogs ect. If we only breed from perfectly healthy lines there will be no poodles since there are no perfectly healthy dogs. Let us not call out breeders who health test and post the results. This is the solution because when the poodle genome is mapped this is how they figure out which Dog's epilepsy is hereditary and which is environmental ect. What we can do now is warn of breeders who abuse/neglect their dogs and support the shelters that save them. The current legislation up for review seems flawed but laws need to be changed. I can't believe that some of the breeders/abusers that Keith has posted are back in business again.


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## Olie

Chagall's mom said:


> eace2lease folks, _please, please, please_, let's put the focus back onto the *29 poodles in rescue with uncertain futures*! Maybe start a new thread on diversity or jump over to PM's? Really, for the sake of the poodles,_ pretty please_!


You are right.


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## petitpie

double


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## petitpie

It would be nice to have daily up-dates and pictures again of the poodles posted on PF from any members and the shelter.


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## Olie

I have not seen any since the update on "Daisy" a few days ago. She is coming along very slowly. The post from the rescue made me cry.......I bet I looked her picture 20 times that day. It was sad but hopeful. 

I swear any dogs I might have in the future will be from rescue. I appreciate the breeders I got my dogs but there is just too much of this..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Updates would be lovely. Does anyone know how the dogs in rescue are doing?


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## Keithsomething

Absolutely agree! 

A small update I recieved said that the prosecuter is still sorting through evidence but they're hopefully making progress towards a court hearing. And the dogs are adjusting well to their new enviroments


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## Countryboy

Keithsomething said:


> also heres a link where I acted like a complete fool in a thread...



LMBO, Keith! I don't really remember what u posted. But, remembering the gist of that thread,there's no way in heck I'm gonna click on yr link to open it again! lol

Thanx for the memories but it's not gonna happen!! 

Now I gotta get back to catchin' up on the rest of this thread....


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## Countryboy

Olie said:


> Tux does have SA actually a mild case however his breeder was upfront AND refused any litter mates be bred


Yr right! This is the safest way to maybe breed out SA. But . . oh yeah . . there's a 'but' comin'.....  lol

Think abt this... what might we be breeding out? There's a big 'maybe' that there's a inherited gene for SA. We don't know for sure but it's too big a chance to take. I agree with that. 

But there's always a very small 'maybe' that one of those culled dogs has a mutated gene that actually starts to improve a 'Front'? And maybe that particular dog does not carry any gene for SA. Who knows???

Gene research is the answer. But we're not there yet.

..... back to the thread


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## Administrator

Last warning... keep this thread on topic. Keep the speculation out. Keep the personal bickering out of this too. Next time, this thread will be closed and removed. LAST WARNING.


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## Countryboy

Chagall's mom said:


> eace2lease folks, _please, please, please_, let's put the focus back onto the *29 poodles in rescue with uncertain futures*! Maybe start a new thread on diversity or jump over to PM's? Really, for the sake of the poodles,_ pretty please_!


Oooooops!!! And NOW u tell me! When I've already posted twice... and haven't even got to the end of the thread yet....  lol

I've always seen forum threads as similar to a cocktail party conversation. There's noooo way of telling where it's gonna go.


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## petitpie

Can anyone ask the Forgot-Me-Not-Shelter to post more updates, since several members seem to correspond with them.


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## cliffdweller

Fluffyspoos said:


> No, your dog bloated because it's a deep chested breed, that could literally happen in ANY line.


Fluffyspoos, I don't want to knitpick, but I think it is important to consider the possibility that emphasis on deep chests in the breed (-- & other breeds as well), and breeding for this quality (without consideration to function --- i.e., whether it actually benefits the life of the dog in any way, like in some performance capacity), is primarily a product of dog _showing_. There is very little way to tell when "deep" is "too deep" to be a benefit to the animal, unless the dogs are tested in some _functional_ capacity, somewhat like what "mother nature" would do. (Form follows function, and if the only function is showing, which actually requires very little true physical/behavioral quality, or longevity, etc., well ... The "best" form for the health & happiness of the animal may not be the one fanciers find the most aesthetically pleasing, nor the one described in the Breed Standard).


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## Countryboy

*Sigh......*

My long post last nite was in connection with loosing any genetic diversity that Yadda's dogs may have had. Either for being 'not pretty enuf' or the fact that shelters will not release intact dogs... never.

*I've mention that previously.*

But . . . for whoever's reason . . . these dogs are lost. And the breed looses...


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## fjm

I think Forget Me Not are doing their very best under very difficult circumstances - remember they are a small volunteer organisation, who are taking excellent care of a very large number of poodles in addition to all the other animals they help. They post regular updates on Facebook and their website when they have time, and have been scrupulous about responding personally to everyone who has donated. I think they are doing an amazing job of helping the dogs and communicating - much as we might like more frequent postings, I think we have to recognise that the animals have first call on their time and energy.


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## Keithsomething

poodleadm said:


> Last warning... keep this thread on topic. Keep the speculation out. Keep the personal bickering out of this too. Next time, this thread will be closed and removed. LAST WARNING.


I don't see any personal bickering...just natural evolution of conversation, also this is only the first warning this thread has recieved. I just scoured the 33pages and I don't see any warnings or redirects given by you or the moderator. Personal curiousity, what are the rules on a redirect/warning on a thread? There are set rules for a personal warning and what not but no published rules on the warnings/redirects given on a thread 

Personally this is the longest threw I've seen to date that HASN'T turned into a sh*tstorm...so I'm not entirely sure where the warning is coming from


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## Fluffyspoos

nu2poodles said:


> Fluffyspoos, I don't want to knitpick, but I think it is important to consider the possibility that emphasis on deep chests in the breed (-- & other breeds as well), and breeding for this quality (without consideration to function --- i.e., whether it actually benefits the life of the dog in any way, like in some performance capacity), is primarily a product of dog _showing_. There is very little way to tell when "deep" is "too deep" to be a benefit to the animal, unless the dogs are tested in some _functional_ capacity, somewhat like what "mother nature" would do. (Form follows function, and if the only function is showing, which actually requires very little true physical/behavioral quality, or longevity, etc., well ... The "best" form for the health & happiness of the animal may not be the one fanciers find the most aesthetically pleasing, nor the one described in the Breed Standard).


Here are some articles stating that wolves, with Mother Nature's own breed standard, can bloat as well. Fed dog food, of course.

Watertown Daily Times | Two new wolves welcomed at zoo

Lake Tahoe Wolf Rescue - Bloat/Twisted Bowel

http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diets pdf/Mexican Wolf Nutrition.pdf



So you're saying that since we don't run our dogs as much as they would in the wild, they should all have barrel bodies? Better start emailing all the breed clubs, saying that you've discovered a way to prevent bloat forever.


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## CharismaticMillie

peppersb said:


> some show breeders may have made breeding decisions that produce lines that are nice looking but not healthy.


So have some non-show breeders.  Show breeders are any more to blame for health issues than non-show breeders.


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## peppersb

CharismaticMillie said:


> So have some non-show breeders.  Show breeders are any more to blame for health issues than non-show breeders.


Good point, CM. There are all kinds of breeders with all kinds of different motivations making all kinds of good and bad breeding decisions. I said: "In their zeal to produce prefect conformation, some show breeders may have made breeding decisions that produce lines that are nice looking but not healthy." I still think that's true. I also think that there are show breeders who care a lot about health and do a lot to improve the health as well as the beauty of the breed. There are non-show breeders who are very careful about health, and those who aren't. Thanks for your comment.


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## cliffdweller

Fluffyspoos said:


> Here are some articles stating that wolves, with Mother Nature's own breed standard, can bloat as well. Fed dog food, of course.
> 
> Watertown Daily Times | Two new wolves welcomed at zoo
> 
> Lake Tahoe Wolf Rescue - Bloat/Twisted Bowel
> 
> http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diets pdf/Mexican Wolf Nutrition.pdf


"... it is important to consider the _possibility_ ..." & there seems to be some agreement among people who study this that there is a genetic component .... 



Fluffyspoos said:


> So you're saying that since we don't run our dogs as much as they would in the wild, they should all have barrel bodies?


I'm not saying anything of the kind.


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## Chagall's mom

Those of us who followed the case know how it was resolved. I just learned more of the "back-story," which I found of interest and thought to share. Here's a link to a short interview with Cindy Crawley, president of the Poodle Club of America Rescue Foundation and founder and president of the Mid-Atlantic Poodle Rescue.

Pet Relocation Spotlight: A Poodle Rescue Story - Pet Travel Advice | PetRelocation.com

Still hoping Daisy is found safe, that would make for an even happier ending.:clover:


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## Jdcollins

Thanks for that link... I too keep thinking about daisy... Idk y but I am surprised she hasn't been found :-(


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## Chagall's mom

There's a heartwarming update on some of the rescued poodles from the raid in the current edition of PCA's Poodle Papers. ("Happy Tails," pages 34-36.) Poodle Papers: Summer 2013


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## tnedator

Chagall's mom said:


> There's a heartwarming update on some of the rescued poodles from the raid in the current edition of PCA's Poodle Papers. ("Happy Tails," pages 34-36.) Poodle Papers: Summer 2013


I haven't been on the forum long, and therefore do not know anything about the breeder in question. I read the Happy Trails piece, and on the one hand they were great stories about how some of the dogs were rescued and then found good homes. However, it is both disgusting and disheartening to read how the breeder treated her dogs.


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