# Sable/Brindle... poodles.. :O



## aki

I just replied to the thread about multicolor poodles, but I don't mind posting the info again. Just an FYI, these were the best examples of the actual way they look, but the colors of brindles and sables can vary.

Here's the website,
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/poodlecoatcolorsbrindleandsable.html

First pic is of a brindle, second is of a sable.


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## Raiko

Lol just before you replied to this I saw yours on the other thread.

The sable in the pic looks nice but on the link explaining it.. looks kinda like someone threw up after eating assorted chocolates all over him.

the brindle was hard to see


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## Fluffyspoos

More Sables, this is a dog I found on flikr


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## aki

That was a lovely analogy 

Yeah, the brindle is not as noticeable as it is on the attached pic. From afar it looks like a black that has sun bleaching. I've seen pictures of silver/white brindles and again it's not too noticeable from afar.

I don't really like the sort of off yellow color mixed with brown most sables seem to have.

Not to mention how really unpredictable the coat is. You never really know what colors and patterns your going to end up with.

Though I have to admit that the sable in the pictures Fluffyspoos has provided looks very cool and interesting. That's a sable I wouldn't mind owning.


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## Fluffyspoos

Some Brindle Partis

































I think they're all gorgeous, especially the last one, I looooove grey and white partis / grey and white brindle partis


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## aki

As silvers and silver partis I don't mind the sable and brindle.

It's just that really weird off yellow/brown color I dislike. Looks like most outgrow it.


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## MoJoMama

This site has some good examples of the Brindles... aki, I agree with you about the sables, but I'm finding the Brindles SO intriguing! The one I'm talking about is half-way down the page.
http://www.solostandards.com/MyGuys.html


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## PoodlePassion

I have a cream sable named Tickle. I got him when he was 16 weeks old and now he's three years old. Here are some pics of him at 8wks, 12wks, 16wks, and now:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kcovert/

Hope this helps!

Kim


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## cbrand

MoJoMama said:


> This site has some good examples of the Brindles... aki, I agree with you about the sables, but I'm finding the Brindles SO intriguing! The one I'm talking about is half-way down the page.
> http://www.solostandards.com/MyGuys.html


I guess as long as it is a "rare" color, anything can be a breeding dog.


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## roxy25

MoJoMama said:


> This site has some good examples of the Brindles... aki, I agree with you about the sables, but I'm finding the Brindles SO intriguing! The one I'm talking about is half-way down the page.
> http://www.solostandards.com/MyGuys.html


I am sorry that brindle dog is Hideous ! 

I have seen parti brindles and that looks fine to me but a solid brindle .yuck


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## roxy25

Where did brindles come from ? where they always a color within the breed? 

I have never read any info or history about poodles coming in brindle ?

I have seen merle "poodle" but those are definitely mixes


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## Fluffyspoos

roxy25 said:


> I am sorry that brindle dog is Hideous !
> 
> I have seen parti brindles and that looks fine to me but a solid brindle .yuck


Oh, I have to disagree, I think he's gorgeous!


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## Purple Poodle

I am really iffy on sable and brindle being a natural accuring color and I think that another breed had to have introduced the color. The majorty of brindles/sables are not of good quality.

The same could be said for Cockers & Chihuahuas.


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## aki

Purple Poodle said:


> I am really iffy on sable and brindle being a natural accuring color and I think that another breed had to have introduced the color. The majorty of brindles/sables are not of good quality.
> 
> The same could be said for Cockers & Chihuahuas.


I'm going to have to agree...I mean the poodles on that site posted earlier are extremely big! 29 inches is really huge! Not to mention they look a bit off balance because their rears are so high up!

Some of them look very interesting but I would rather not sacrifice the quality of the dog for the color or pattern.

Edit:

Further perusing of their site reveals they are breeding "royals" *rolls eyes*


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## Bella's Momma

That first one, Harvey, is beautiful! 

I'm not a fan of any dog that is 'brindle' color, nor horses (I don't know what you call a horse but I think you know the coloring that I mean), or even cats (LOL) so perhaps it's just a preference. 

I love the big solid portion ones, remind me of collies.


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## thestars

aki said:


> I'm going to have to agree...I mean the poodles on that site posted earlier are extremely big! 29 inches is really huge! Not to mention they look a bit off balance because their rears are so high up!
> 
> Some of them look very interesting but I would rather not sacrifice the quality of the dog for the color or pattern.
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Further perusing of their site reveals they are breeding "royals" *rolls eyes*



Their Rears look high up because she shot them on a hill with their front going down hill. I know because I have done the same type of photo shoot. Not appealing for anything with length like dogs and horses. It's always best to shoot them going up hill.

As for the colors and size, god made them so enjoy them. Unfortunately breeders used to kill the "ugly" or "non-conforming" to their standard pup. Now people can enjoy all of gods creations.


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## Cdnjennga

thestars said:


> As for the colors and size, god made them so enjoy them. Unfortunately breeders used to kill the "ugly" or "non-conforming" to their standard pup. Now people can enjoy all of gods creations.


Sure you could say that. I don't agree with killing pups that don't conform. But I do think they should be taken out of any breeding program and speutered as pets!

Off topic: Our first Portuguese Water Dog was a terrible physical specimen! Well, I thought he was handsome, but he didn't really look like his breed. He was high in the rear, too tall, had a tail with a bizzare pigs curl at the end, yellow eyes... I could go on. The first year we were at the specialty, someone pointed at him and said "that looks nothing like what a PWD should look like." Were we mildly insulted? Sure. But as we learned more about what a PWD should look like, we agreed. That didn't stop him from being a fantastic pet or the dog that will always hold a special place in my heart. It's a good thing we neutered him though, because we did not need to be carrying on his genes.


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## Cdnjennga

Back on topic!

I like the look of a nice parti, although as my eye becomes more educated, I can see how some of them have very poor structure. I have no idea if brindle/ sable/ whatever is naturally occuring in poodles or not... Maybe we'll never know. Although now I want to know! Any colour historians on this board?


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## aki

thestars said:


> Their Rears look high up because she shot them on a hill with their front going down hill. I know because I have done the same type of photo shoot. Not appealing for anything with length like dogs and horses. It's always best to shoot them going up hill.
> 
> As for the colors and size, god made them so enjoy them. Unfortunately breeders used to kill the "ugly" or "non-conforming" to their standard pup. Now people can enjoy all of gods creations.


Several pictures were taken on a flat surface when they are not moving, and their rears continue to be high, so I don't understand how them walking down hill has anything to do with it. Everyone is welcome to interpret their photos in whatever manner they like, that's how I see them.

And breeders(not all, most spay/neuter and put in pet homes) continue to cull non-conforming pups from ALL breeds. I don't think it is right, but I also don't think it's right to try and breed larger because of the health problems that can arise. If we didn't have a breed standard, we wouldn't have a breed.

I don't care about the color of the dog, because we all have different taste. What I find unattractive another may love. I like parti's, but I don't like the other multi-colors. I said nothing about culling, I just said I would not want to own a poodle with those markings because *I* don't like the way it looks. I just don't like people breeding for just color, size, or both. Many people are doing just that whether it be parti's, teacups, or royals. I would rather have a healthy poodle, not a poodle bought solely on the color or size.

IMHO the site mentioned earlier is breeding royals, which I don't agree with. Purposefully breeding bigger seems risky, regardless of what colors they choose to breed.

I also have no problem with partis, phantoms, sables, brindles, etc. I do have a problem with people who breed these colors with no regard towards the health of the dog and the breed standard.


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## thestars

Lighten up folks...Boy if we humans had to breed to the standards you all want then god wouldn't have anybody left.


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## aki

thestars said:


> Lighten up folks...Boy if we humans had to breed to the standards you all want then god wouldn't have anybody left.


Well I don't get what god has to do with this.

They are breeding them big, not god. They are choosing who to breed together so they can get bigger dogs.

Edit:

And to clarify, I do not think that a puppy in a litter that is born bigger then normal or "royal" should be culled, but definitely not used in breeding unless the breeder intends to use a smaller bitch/stud to balance it out. Even then a lot of research into both of the pedigrees should be examined in order to make the decision. If not, they should be spayed/neutered and live their life as a lovely pet.


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## wishpoo

Absolutely !!!! As soon as I see somebody marketing a "fad" , I cringe, but it is just me :eyebrows:

I also am absolutely against culling the pups for any reason except if puppy is so deformed that it is incompatible with life. My first spoo had a white marking on his chest and was not show dog, that is for sure !!! I loved him to death and to this day he is the most perfect dog I ever had or knew - now was he to be bred !??? I do not think so !

I absolutely agree that anybody who is breeding for size, color and any other "popular" combo at the given time and is not doing any health testing, or taking care of the temperament component - is breeding solely for profit !!!! And that is WRONG ! Royals can have structural problems and also are more prone to bloat : (((. If one puppy in the litter happens to be a "royal" size (which would be really very rare with excellent breeder who examines lines to the finest detail and plans breeding carefully), than of course, that pup is going to have parents that were checked for genetic disorders and OFA and CERF etc. and he will be somebody's perfect pet ! BUT, if allll puppies are "royals" , than that breeding was planned to produce unusually big dogs just because somebody might to prefer HUDGE standard just for the looks. If somebody is producing puppies " just to sell fast", than that person is breeding not to improve the breed or for the love of a breed but for the love of the MONEY ! And that person is most likely to skip testing since it is expensive and overbreed to make a profit and so on ... I do not know - to me it is very clear cut deal.


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## Cdnjennga

According to Parti Poodle World:

Partis and Phantoms are not the only multi-colored Poodles in existence. While the exact history of these other colors are not known, these colors are not new or recent either. Brindles in particular have existed since at least the 1950's. Sables are another color in which the inheritance and history is not quite known as of yet. The Sable pattern isn't as noticeable when a Poodle is cut short. But when the hair is left long, the bi-coloring is much more obvious. The hair at the base is one color and along its length it changes colors usually with brown or black tips. 

http://www.partipoodleworld.com/ColorsandTrimsOtherColors.htm


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## roxy25

Cdnjennga said:


> According to Parti Poodle World:
> 
> Partis and Phantoms are not the only multi-colored Poodles in existence. While the exact history of these other colors are not known, these colors are not new or recent either. Brindles in particular have existed since at least the 1950's. Sables are another color in which the inheritance and history is not quite known as of yet. The Sable pattern isn't as noticeable when a Poodle is cut short. But when the hair is left long, the bi-coloring is much more obvious. The hair at the base is one color and along its length it changes colors usually with brown or black tips.
> 
> http://www.partipoodleworld.com/ColorsandTrimsOtherColors.htm


I am sorry I just looked through this thread again LMAO God did not create dog breeds humans did. God created wolves and whe changed them.

Anyways Cdnjennga

What happen to the brindles prior to 1950's? 1950 is not that long ago. This makes me still believe brindles were added from other breeds. If you could find more info about brindles early one then I will believe this color to be orginal. I have old poodle books and they never mention brindles but then again these books are written by people who are breeding solid dogs so you know some history is left out.

This same issue has happen with american pit bulls all of the sudden people started to have merles dogs out of no where. Of course these same breeders with merles where BYB and trying to make a quick buck. Both UKC and ADBA do not except the color merle to be registered any more since it brought up such Controversy. Merle is dominant and it would have been know since day one apbt came in merle. All of the merle pits emerged in the early 90's


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## Fluffyspoos

Speaking of Merle Pitbulls, I found a picture of a Blue Merle Poodle. I think the coloring is gorgeous, but I HIGHLY doubt it's a full bred poodle. It's got to have some aussie in it or something.

And here's a site that has merle minis. http://www.utopiapoodles.com/merle.html

Thoughts?


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## roxy25

I mentioned merle poodles on the first page. IMO there is no way they are purebred..... I have seen poodle aussie mixes all over the net and they look purebred. This breeder also registers her dogs with CKC so enough said there lol and no not the canadian kennel club....


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## Dogsinstyle

That is the same woman who operated as Terreganthen poodles in FL, and was shut down by animal control. She has resurfaced in GA.
She has been discussed many times, as there is no other merle poodle's but hers that ever came out of the woodwork anywhere, she has crossed with another breed, surely aussie.
She can't reg. AKC, as a DNA test might be requested.
Carole


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## wishpoo

Oh my god :wacko:, I do not even have a comment ... What are they doing to a poodle is just criminal and would be funny if it was not sad : ((( What is a poodle now - POINTER .... SHEEP DOG .... just...just ... :doh:


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## roxy25

wishpoo said:


> Oh my god :wacko:, I do not even have a comment ... What are they doing to a poodle is just criminal and would be funny if it was not sad : ((( What is a poodle now - POINTER .... SHEEP DOG .... just...just ... :doh:


Google Doodleman lol people just breed anything to anything ......




> That is the same woman who operated as Terreganthen poodles in FL, and was shut down by animal control. She has resurfaced in GA.
> She has been discussed many times, as there is no other merle poodle's but hers that ever came out of the woodwork anywhere, she has crossed with another breed, surely aussie.
> She can't reg. AKC, as a DNA test might be requested.
> Carole


WOW that is a damn shame .... There is this kennel ( I will have to ask my sister about) that states on their website that on of their stud dogs i mixed yet they claim the dogs they breed are purebred. When I find the kennel I wll post link.


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## Dogsinstyle

She has had AKC poodles, but not the merles. They are Continental Kennel Club.
Carole


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## wishpoo

OK - if anybody wishes a "flashy" BOXERDOODLE _ just go here http://www.debbiesdoodleranch.com/

Unbelievable !!!! I mean unbelievable in many ways :wacko: Why would anybody in their right mind come up with the idea of mixing Boxer to a Poolde (I mean all purposeful mixing is just so wrong on so many levels...) BUT BOXER ??? AND - why would anybody in their right mind PAY that much money for a mix when there are thousands mixes puppies killed in pounds yearly : ((( ???? This world is going nuts ... wish there is another planet to fly to LOL


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## roxy25

Dogsinstyle said:


> She has had AKC poodles, but not the merles. They are Continental Kennel Club.
> Carole


Yeah I was reading her website. The pit bull people with merles used CKC also lol IMO anyone who registers with CKC (Continental Kennel Club) should just be a red flag period.


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## Fluffyspoos

wishpoo said:


> OK - if anybody wishes a "flashy" BOXERDOODLE _ just go here http://www.debbiesdoodleranch.com/
> 
> Unbelievable !!!! I mean unbelievable in many ways :wacko: Why would anybody in their right mind come up with the idea of mixing Boxer to a Poolde (I mean all purposeful mixing is just so wrong on so many levels...) BUT BOXER ??? AND - why would anybody in their right mind PAY that much money for a mix when there are thousands mixes puppies killed in pounds yearly : ((( ???? This world is going nuts ... wish there is another planet to fly to LOL


Ew =/ I love boxers and I love poodles.. but not the inbetween lol


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## Cdnjennga

roxy25 said:


> What happen to the brindles prior to 1950's? 1950 is not that long ago. This makes me still believe brindles were added from other breeds. If you could find more info about brindles early one then I will believe this color to be orginal. I have old poodle books and they never mention brindles but then again these books are written by people who are breeding solid dogs so you know some history is left out.


I questioned that too when I read it... You have to wonder how a colour or pattern can suddenly pop up without any trace of where it came from. Hmm...


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## mvhplank

Yeah, this is an 11-year-old thread, but I stumbled on it while looking for an article I read previously on the color genetics for brindle poodles.



roxy25 said:


> <snip>
> What happen to the brindles prior to 1950's? 1950 is not that long ago. This makes me still believe brindles were added from other breeds. If you could find more info about brindles early one then I will believe this color to be orginal. I have old poodle books and they never mention brindles but then again these books are written by people who are breeding solid dogs so you know some history is left out.
> </snip>


My newest poodle is Hobbes, born September 2019, and is a brindle. I like to keep his body clipped to about 1/2 inch to better define the stripes, but his breeder tells me they will fade with age. I presume that's because the coat grows continuously and only new sable hair has the distinctive bands of color. But still, the stripes on his skin remain, and make a lovely chevron pattern on the shaved part of his tail.

He's fully registered in both AKC (as "black and silver") & UKC (as "brindle"). I also was wondering about the origin of the color variation. In the picture below he got his first two competition wins in UKC conformation (November 2020). [Note to self, continue training him to hold his tail up when gaiting.] His mom is a UKC Emerald Grand Champion and two of his littermates have finished their grand championships. I got him as an obedience prospect and my instructors all think he has loads of potential. He learns incredibly fast and is already starting to understand dumbbell retrieves, the full pile of scent articles, and short go-outs. Attentive heeling, as with any dog (I think) is a lifelong training and reinforcement task, but he's starting to get it.

I was reviewing his genetic report (Optimal Selection, now Wisdom Panel) yesterday and found some clues that might relate to the origin of brindle.

*Coat Type: *
Trait: MC5R c.237A>T 
Genotype: C/T
Description: The dog carries one copy of the allele associated with heavy shedding and one copy of the allele associated low shedding. This genotype has no effect on a dog with furnishings, but non-wire-haired dog with this genotype is likely heavy or seasonal shedder. [NOTE: He tests AA/TT for furnishings, meaning he is likely to express them--as if you can tell on a poodle.]

*Coat Colour:*
Trait: Colour Locus K - Dominant Black
Genotype: KB/ky || KB/kbr || kbr/ky || kbr/kbr
Description: The dog is genetically dominant black or brindle.

Trait: Colour Locus A - Agouti 
Genotype: ay/ay
Description: The dog is genetically sable.

[By the way, he does NOT a carry merle: m/m]

*Morphology:*
Trait: chr10:11072007
Genotype: C/T 
The dog carries one copy of an allele typically associated with floppy ears, and one copy of an allele typically associated with pricked ears.

So, an ancestor that is sable, sheds heavily, and has prick ears would be the suspect. But, as with merle poodles, if you lie about parentage on the paperwork and breed several subsequent generations, the genetics are otherwise indistinguishable from registered poodles.

He tests "clear" of all the disorders found in in multiple breeds of dogs--starting at page 5 and continuing to page 14. The full genetic report runs 22 pages in PDF format.

But ya know, closed registries, especially in rare breeds, are damping down genetic diversity. My guy tests as highly diverse, though I can't check the current figures because Optimal Genetics hasn't restored that feature (scheduled for early 2021). 










And here he is, earning 197.5 in his second CDSP Novice test at 13 months old:


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## cowpony

That is a really interesting test result. I wonder if something like a Dutch Shepherd jumped the fence years ago. I also wonder if Phantom poodles might have similar anomalies in their test results. Thanks for posting it.


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## Johanna

roxy25 said:


> Where did brindles come from ? where they always a color within the breed?
> 
> I have never read any info or history about poodles coming in brindle ?
> 
> I have seen merle "poodle" but those are definitely mixes


That is a good question, Roxy. I cannot recall ever seeing a brindle poodle of any size. Like merle, I suspect a cross to another breed has been made. It is sad that people are taken in by ads for colors/patterns that are not supposed to exist in a breed. Reputable breeders work very, very hard to breed to the standard (the written description of breed characteristics that is maintained by the breed parent club). For poodles, that means breeding dogs that are an even, solid color at the skin (that allows for natural shading in apricots and silvers).


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## mvhplank

Johanna said:


> That is a good question, Roxy. I cannot recall ever seeing a brindle poodle of any size. Like merle, I suspect a cross to another breed has been made. It is sad that people are taken in by ads for colors/patterns that are not supposed to exist in a breed. Reputable breeders work very, very hard to breed to the standard (the written description of breed characteristics that is maintained by the breed parent club). For poodles, that means breeding dogs that are an even, solid color at the skin (that allows for natural shading in apricots and silvers).


I take exception to your comment. I consider the breeder of my boy to be a reputable breeder, doing all health testing and researching her breeding selections carefully. You don't have to breed ONLY solid poodles to be a reputable breeder, particularly since the multi-colors are fully embraced by UKC and reportedly more recently by some European kennel clubs. My boy's breeder raises the litters with Puppy Culture methods, which I think is critically important. She could have placed my boy in other situations, but she really wanted him to go to a performance home, which is what I aim to give him.

Please be aware that the earliest depictions in art of poodle-type dogs were parti-colors. The decision to concentrate on solid colors was made in Europe by FCI and copied in America by AKC, perhaps because solid colors were more "fashionable." 

Parti-colors have always been part of the breed. But I'll admit that there's not similar evidence for brindles in the historic record. They appeared well before genetic tests were as widely used (one source says the 1950s)--and, importantly--there don't appear to be any health effects related to being a brindle, unlike the problems associated with the merle gene. 

I do agree that breeding merle poodles needs to be discouraged, but it's an uphill battle. I'm a member of the UKC's United Poodle Association, which embraces both multi-colored and solid-colored poodles, but the UPA specifically discourages merles and will not recognize that color as a purebred. This is not only because of their questionable origin, but because of the health risks that are associated with the merle genetics. 

On the other hand, closed registries like those in AKC and UKC pretty much guarantee reduced genetic diversity and greater likelihood of genetic diseases. (See an argument against closed registries here: Inbred Thinking - Terrierman - American Working Terriers) So my brindle boy, with very good diversity scores, may have had some ancestors that snuck into the registries by the side door, and good for him!


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