# Gerry is going back.



## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

Hi Muffin,

You're totally doing the right thing! Obviously the safety of your daughter must come first. Especially since you're looking to add another baby to the family - this is the right thing to do. You're not a bad mom, or a bad dog owner. I'm sure the dog will find a proper home, preferably with no children.

I hope your daughter is not too affected by the bite. It sounds nasty, and it must have hurt. Perhaps this adult dog was not properly socialized to be around children. 

Take care,


----------



## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I agree with lrkelly... You are neither a bad doggy or baby mum for doing this. Your daughter should be first priority, and even if you were to keep Gerry, having that happen once would mean the future is uncertain. By giving him back, at least you're giving him another chance on finding a home.. rather than putting him to sleep, when really it may be he just (like you said) was never socialised well with children.

I suggest contacting poodle clubs, and breeders about older puppies or ex show dogs. Really check the breeders out though. If you get from a show breeder, generally theyre much better socialised than a would-be rescue, as obviously judges have to feel them everywhere!
I'm also currently looking for an older dog, and have found a few young dogs looking for homes... maybe my suggestion will help?


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

> Posted by *Muffin*:...
> I'm totally rethinking everything I said about adopting an older dog. ... After a long debate with the hubby I called the rescue and he is going back. I can't believe I even took the chance adopting an older dog that I didn't personally train myself. Ugh. I feel like crap. I don't think he meant to do it (I hope)- It's possible he could have thought she was Gracie for that split second, but we agreed that it's not even worth the chance of it happening again. He left three blue/purple teeth marks on her face, still every bit as visible tonight before bed.
> 
> This breaks my heart, he was such a great dog until this. If it was done playfully he probably would have just gotten scolded for nipping and then forgiven, but since this was deliberate and completely unfriendly we feel it is the right thing. ...


Okay, first please resist the temptation to anthropomorphize Gerry, or to humanize his actions. Dogs don't bite out of spite or to be 'unfriendly,' and it's difficult to know why he bit your daughter. Some dogs (mine included) don't like children because they're loud, they shriek, they get up in dogs' faces, they haven't been taught how to interact with dogs, and they're unpredictable. (I'm not suggesting your daughter is like that but it's possible previous kids in Gerry's life weren't taught how to behave around dogs.) Perhaps your daughter caught Gerry off guard, but we'll never know. You have to do what feels right to you and what's best for Gerry too. 

Second, don't beat yourself up. It's possible this isn't a good match for you and your family. Hopefully the rescue will avoid putting Gerry in a home with small children next time. Most rescues won't adopt smaller dogs to homes with small children period. Sometimes dogs and kids just aren't a good mix. I agree with that rule except under rare circumstances. 

Finally, I've adopted three adult male poodles over the years and never had a problem with any of them, despite not having raised them personally. I did "train" them, in that I let them know what was expected of them, and two were actually geriatric. I don't want anyone to be discouraged from adopting and older dog because they can make fantastic companions.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

So, rather than train out this unacceptable behaviour, u would send the dog back?

Did u give the dog a smack? Or did u allow it to bite yr DD with no consequences? *U do realize that yr showing it that he is allowed to discipline her himself.*

Will no one ever step up, put aside their squeamish side, and train this poor dog how to act around humans? Or will he be put down for never knowing that they cannot be treated as other animals . . . never.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

You are so right..Muffin. I had totally forgotten about my own experience with a rescue doberman just before I got my heart dog (doberman) She was a sweet 4 year old girl. My daughter was 12 and we took this dog in. She became very protective of me and tried to "nip" at 3 different people(all children) in 2 weeks. I sent her back too. When you have children you cannot be too careful. Some older dogs just have too many issues that take too long to overcome...and they should not be around children. Im so sorry this happened and I totally understand. You were trying to do the good thing in adopting a rescue and now you have to do the right thing in sending this dog back. <<hugs>>


----------



## Fbkathleen (Jan 9, 2012)

*My experience*

My daughter Sarah had a Australian Cattle Dog mix, Fred, and he once bit her niece. She was totally devastated and kept him away from children as he was increasingly anxious near children. But when she became pregnant she knew she could not keep him. She was heartbroken but it was the only decision. So I took him because I did not have any children and I could easily separate him when grand kids or other children visited. Fred is now 15 and he is a wonderful dog around adults. He has had a great life. He does still get anxious around children so he is crated in those circumstances as well as when my puppy Enzo is in the same room. He had a much better life with me than he could have had with Sarah as no one needed to watch every move he made. Your dog will find a good home with adults and have much more freedom than he could have in your home where you would always have to worry. You absolutely made the right decision. There are dogs that don't mix well with children and while they can be trained to interact better with children it cannot realistically be done in a home with small children in which the parents are always worried. Way too much stress and everyone loses.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

How upsetting. Make sure you tell the rescue about the incident because Gerry should not be in a home with children. Has Gerry been to the vet recently? If a dog does something like this I always think it is a good idea to have him checked by a vet in case of ear infection ect. which may influence his behavior. 

Countryboy I am not sure I understand your post. Are you suggesting she should have hit the dog when she saw him bite? I have never had this issue but wouldn't this just escalate things? If the dog has aggresion issues I personally would not keep the dog in a house with children in the hopes that training would fix the problem. Other issues - jumping, defecating in the house, stealing ect. I absolutely would work through but not this one with kids in the house.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

First, I think it was a great thing you did rescuing the pup and not every pup works in every situation. Biting, as all dog owners know (or should know) usually indicates something else such as fear, etc., so I take exception to CB's comment (perhaps he was trying to inject some humor?) "Did u give the dog a smack? Or did u allow it to bite yr DD with no consequences? *U do realize that yr showing it that he is allowed to discipline her himself.*

I believe that a newly rescued pup probably is in its own category when it comes to behavior issues --- and since Gerry was an adult and a rescue, I think reacting quickly in a physical way could cause more harm than good. I understand and agree that if the dog bit a child, you first concern is for the child, and I would have put the dog safely away --- but, again, this is a tough discussion here since nobody on this forum, no matter what their credentials or experience may be, knows what triggered him to do what he did --- so I do believe you did the correct thing by returning him, and letting the rescue group know what happened, and hopefully, this will be a happy ending for all. The rescue group will need to carefully vet any potential owners knowing what happened, but I would refrain from reacting too quickly and physically correcting the dog -- IMO and I am not a "credentialled dog trainer or behaviorist" but have had poodles for 30 years and tend to be a fair and kind-hearted person. I commend you for making the right decision.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> Are you suggesting she should have hit the dog when she saw him bite? I have never had this issue but wouldn't this just escalate things? If the dog has aggression issues I personally would not keep the dog in a house with children in the hopes that training would fix the problem. Other issues - jumping, defecating in the house, stealing ect. I absolutely would work through but not this one with kids in the house.


I suppose I am . . yeah... 

Because I see this, not as an aggression issue, but as a dominance issue. So, Plan A would be to* teach* the dog that he does not dominate human pups . . any of them . . ever.

- Plan B, of course, if u find him continuously aggressive, is to move him on to a non-kid household. I agree on that with all of the posters above. - 

Gerry, I assume, is the Mini. So he's probably a sturdy boy. A backhand in the ribs, or the butt *usually the only places u can reach* is guaranteed to hurt the teacher's knuckles more than it hurts the dog. But it will still serve to 'discipline' him. 

If Tonka ever did this I would see it as an excellent, immediate oppourtunity to teach him that he ranks below MY pups . . my grandkids. Beginning his education that snapping at human pups comes with negative consequences.

There is another way to change the 'pack order' in yr house. The non-corporal punishment way. When one shows dominance, simply push it away and show affection to the other member. Eventually the 'dominant' one will accept a new position . . . subordinate to the other in the pack. Two or three times should do...

But u would be the best judge of Gerry's behaviour. Do u think it was aggression?? . . or dominance. If it was simply dominance, u may be giving up a good dog.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

CB: Sorry I disagree with you here, she JUST got an adult rescue. Are you serious? Maybe you would do that and I am sure I can think of a handful of others on this PF based on their past comments, who would do that. I would never do that --- to each their own, but to advocate it on an open forum, you sort of leave yourself open for responses like this. I am not, by any means, saying I would do the right thing --- I am not a behaviourist or trainer, but I have been around poodles my entire life and have lots of friends with spoos, and I can put money on it that none of them would have done that under the circumstances. I understand you would -- and you shows the reasoning, which I disagree with.

I am also not trying to make this thread as "_stimulating as the e-collar thread (no pun intended) and I don't have lots of forum experience, but I think I am entitled to my opinion without being snarled at????_


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

liljaker said:


> CB: Sorry I disagree with you here, she JUST got an adult rescue. Are you serious? Maybe you would do that and I am sure I can think of a handful of others on this PF based on their past comments, who would do that. I would never do that --- to each their own, but to advocate it on an open forum, you sort of leave yourself open for responses like this. I am not, by any means, saying I would do the right thing --- I am not a behaviourist or trainer, but I have been around poodles my entire life and have lots of friends with spoos, and I can put money on it that none of them would have done that under the circumstances. I understand you would -- and you shows the reasoning, which I disagree with.
> 
> I am also not trying to make this thread as "_stimulating as the e-collar thread (no pun intended) and I don't have lots of forum experience, but I think I am entitled to my opinion without being snarled at????_


Having rescued three adult dogs, I'm in complete agreement with you, *liljaker*. I would hope that most dog owners, especially those members or lurkers who are new to dog ownership, would think twice before backhanding or kicking a dog to gain compliance.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

liljaker said:


> I would never do that --- to each their own, but to advocate it on an open forum, you sort of leave yourself open for responses like this.


Oh yes! lol I knew that as I posted it. 



liljaker said:


> I am also not trying to make this thread as "_stimulating as the e-collar thread (no pun intended) and I don't have lots of forum experience, but I think I am entitled to my opinion without being snarled at????_


And I'm well prepared for the responses. No snarling at anybody. This is simply a discussion of opinions. 

**Tho we still have the underlying question . . aggressive behaviour?? . . or dominance behaviour. And I see three weeks of playing together nicely prior to this incident. Aggression would show up right off the bat . . no?


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> Oh yes! lol I knew that as I posted it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One would think something like that would have already shown up; I am not saying that you just say, "oh well" and not address the aggression; I would not advocate physical punishment -- AGAIN THAT IS ME. Rescues are tricky, and many of my friends have taken in a rescue, but the "unknown" is so much greater. You never really know what a dog has gone through; you also don't know the normal temperment of the dog -- I don't care what a rescue organization says -- since you were not there when it was a pup. I just think rescues are challenging just because they are a rescue, and probably not a good choice with young children, that's all. Most people I know with rescues have older children and the adults have owned dogs, so are able to understand and work with the behaviors, that's all.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Though a little off-topic, I think this kind of discussion is similar to watching parents at a mall or grocery store with young children that misbehave. I have seen some things that go beyond "bordering on child abuse" --- and my guess is there would be people who say, that's ok -- they disobeyed or were acting up. Sigh. I would never do that -- guess I am more of the "negotiator" -- but, again, that's me and, I may add, most of my friends and acquaintances.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Given that dominance is very rarely the explanation for dog behaviour - and then only in very specific circumstances and when one or more dogs (and occasionally dogs and humans) are in competition for the same valued resource, I doubt dominance is the answer. Social status and canine etiquette is different - I have had to teach children not to behave too much like puppies around my dogs before now - one very gifted mimic behaved so much like a puppy (and a very rude puppy at that) that I could see confusion building in the dog's mind and the potential for snapping. Nor do I think it is aggression, in the accepted sense. It sounds to me like a dog that was startled, and whose reaction is then to snap. It was, from the results, an inhibited bite - painful and frightening for the child, but not the very serious damage a dog could easily do if it was serious about biting. 

Which is not to say I don't agree with your decision to return him - your children must come first, every time. I do think that the incident needs to be explained carefully to the rescue staff, though - this is not a dog that bites first and thinks after, it is a dog that needs some management around children until he is better able to cope with how they behave.


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

> Posted by *Countryboy*:
> *Tho we still have the underlying question . . aggressive behaviour?? . . or dominance behaviour. And I see three weeks of playing together nicely prior to this incident. *Aggression would show up right off the bat . . no*?


Not in my personal experience and not from my research. Most rescuers, myself included, often find that their rescued dog's temperament and "personality" doesn't really show until weeks, if not months, after the dog joins the household. _This truly has been my personal experience._ What appears to be a shy, timid dog at the shelter might just turn out to be a gregarious goofball at home. Dogs are adaptable but they do often need time to settle into a new situation before they show their true colors. 

Many behavioural experts tell you not to judge a dog by the behaviour or temperament s/he displays at the shelter. Shelters and crowded foster homes are often chaotic and many dogs "shut down.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I certainly hope that neither the OP nor anyone else who might read this thread now or in the future follows Countryboy's DANGEROUS advice... 

Hitting a dog is NEVER the way to deal with fear or aggression, and could escalate things to an even more violent level, PARTICULARLY with an adult rescue dog that you barely know. 

"Dominance" is a very overused and misused term in the general population and it's a behaviour that's rarely seen if your average pet dog. 

To the OP: Returning this dog is the right thing to do. Don't second-guess yourself. It doesn't mean this is a "bad" dog, but obviously he can't be in a home with children.


----------



## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*I had to return a rescue*

Mine was an older chow mix -- about 6 or 7. Shelter workers LOVED him -- even with a HORRIBLE ear infection and hemotoma that burst he never growled or bit. He was so calm with other dogs when they needed extra space they'd put the extra dogs in his pen cuz he never reacted.

Foster family said the same: he got along great with their 2 small dogs (females), didn't bother the cats, never saw a strange person.

3 weeks after I got him, he attacked my male Shih Tzu and I had to have the Tzu's eye removed. To be fair to Caesar, the Tzu was bothering HIM -- he had severe 
'little dog' syndrome and even tho they both were fixed would try to pick on Caesar. 

The Tzu would then give Caesar a wide berth anytime they were together, but Caesar then fixated on my ACD/Aussie cross, who wasn't even a year old at the time. Bogie would RUN away while Caesar was chasing him and when caught would do the belly-up thing and Caesar would STILL bite him. I could control it in the house, but in the yard Caesar was making Bogie's life miserable and I was afraid he would eventually do damage enough to require ANOTHER vet visit. So I decided after 2 months to return Caesar to the shelter.

Did I feel bad? Yes, and so did the shelter AND the foster family. However, they explained to me that even a returned adoption was good because NOW they had even more information on Caesar to help in finding his forever home. Now they knew, once he got used to a home, he was DA. Possibly only males, possibly only dogs smaller than him, but they wouldn't take the chance and would adopt him to a home with no other dogs. 

So I didn't feel we 'gave up' on Caesar but instead did what we could to insure he would find his forever home with NO other dogs in it.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> I certainly hope that neither the OP nor anyone else who might read this thread now or in the future follows Countryboy's DANGEROUS advice...
> 
> Hitting a dog is NEVER the way to deal with fear or aggression, and could escalate things to an even more violent level, PARTICULARLY with an adult rescue dog that you barely know.
> 
> ...


_Ditto!_ And _bravo!_ :thumb:


----------



## pudelmann (Feb 29, 2012)

So sorry to hear about the incident. I sincerely hope you and your daughter get over this trauma soon.

As a complete novice, I cannot offer any advice but this thread really got me thinking. I have two young children (6 and 4) and am planning to get a dog in the near future (as early as next year). I've read quite a few posts here and there recommending first-time dog owners like me to rescue an adult dog and been positively considering it along with going to the breeder route. 

But now that I get to think a rescue makes more sense to a household without young children? My initial concern with a rescue was that I don't know the health background of the dog but now I have to add socialization aspect as well. And I agree that each dog's true nature is not immediately visible (The same thing is true for human as well). 

I'd like to believe this is a rare incident, but when it comes to kids I must be extra careful. I agree 100% that rescuing a dog is a good thing and would definitely consider that when my kids are grown up, but it may not be for everybody.


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Though a little off-topic, I think this kind of discussion is similar to watching parents at a mall or grocery store with young children that misbehave. I have seen some things that go beyond "bordering on child abuse" --- and my guess is there would be people who say, that's ok -- they disobeyed or were acting up. Sigh. I would never do that -- guess I am more of the "negotiator" -- but, again, that's me and, I may add, most of my friends and acquaintances.


 I realize this is OT, so I apologize in advance...I just wanted to comment on the "negotiating" part. 

I'm the oldest child in a family of 10, ranging from the ages of 21 (me) to almost 4 (youngest boy). I've done probably just as much child care and training as the average parent with two kids, so I feel I'm qualified to say this: negotiating NEVER works. Kids need things to be black and white: you throw a fit in the store, we leave without the toy. (thank God that only happened once!) You tell me no, time out for you and you possibly lose a privelege, such as the computer games. Trying to negotiate with a child and talk him into doing things will result in one thing: he will end up in control. Have you ever seen the kid in the boxed cereal isle at the store, screaming at the top of his lungs with tears streaming down his face, all because mom didn't get him the kind he wanted? And, typically, mom is standing there pleading with him to stop, promising him other things, etc. In the end, she usually just gives in (possibly with an angry huff and some empty threats) and buys the kid what he wants. That is what negotiating with a child gets you...you'll pretty much always end up giving in somehow. They win, every time. I've watched it over and over and over. 

To clarify, abuse is NEVER acceptable. A small spanking on the butt that doesn't leave any marks and is NOT administered in anger, is not abuse, IMO. I certainly got a few, as do my siblings. Anything beyond that, and I view it as abusive. I've seen kids get slapped, pushed, screamed at, and yanked around by their arms. It makes me sick. That's not training at all. The child only learns to be afraid of mom or dad. 

I also want to point out that my parents and myself do not just go around handing out punishments.  All of us have been trained since babyhood with love and fairness, (actually, fairness is a big element in training anything, be it dog or human...) and to be honest, most of us are\were pretty well-behaved by the age of 3 or 4 and didn't need much correction to stay on the right track. None of us were ever abused, but neither did we really have a choice as far as good behavior. Either you behaved yourself or you could bear the consequences. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Consequences are part of life, everyone has to learn that at some point, might as well be when you're young!! 

Back to the topic, I think you did the right thing muffin. I know it's hard, but you're right, your kiddo has to come first.  My first poodle had to be given back to his previous owner 6 wks after I'd had him...my little sister startled him and he bit her in the head. Was it his fault? Nope, it was my family's...they had allowed him outside with her without supervision. (I was at work.) But we can't have an unpredictable dog like that, because children are unpredictable too! (don't get me wrong, we ALWAYS supervise when the dogs and kids are together, especially now that we had that happen, but as muffin has experienced, things happen REALLY fast.  ) It sounds to me like he was maybe protecting you from her? Who knows...either way, my heart goes out to you. I hope you find another dog who will fit perfectly into your family!! And I hope Gerry finds his forever home too.  

BTW, I agree you did the right thing by simply removing him from the situation...hitting him at this stage would only frighten and confuse him, which would make things worse. If one of _my_ dogs did that, I might indeed back hand them in the ribs, but I've had them all for several years, (or their whole life) and I know they know the rules. Plus, it would be automatic...I always protect the kids, physically if I need to. Don't get me wrong, I rarely physically correct my dogs. Something as serious as biting a person would deserve a more serious response from me IMO. But not for a dog who's just come out of a rescue...certainly not!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It is good to hear that you are doing your research, and thinking things through, pudelmann. I think there are pros and cons either way - puppies are mouthy, and bouncy, need a lot of time and energy to housetrain and socialise, and can be completely overwhelming for small children who are not used to them. Older dogs may not have been fully socialised with children, and may find the quick, erratic movements and shrill noises difficult to cope with.

But when it works - with either a puppy or an adult - it is wonderful! I feel sorry for children who miss out on the devotion of an animal friend, who is always there to listen, to soak up tears, to do as you ask even if you are the youngest in the family and put upon by older siblings, and to give you a love that you will remember all your life. There is a small risk involved, and a lot of hard work, but it is Oh so worth it!


----------



## DivinityPoodles (Jan 23, 2012)

OP... you did the right thing. I agree that this was an inhibited bite, thus Gerry knew what he was doing... for whatever reason. I also would physically correct any dog that bit my child IF I had had them for long enough that they knew the rules. In this instance... I may not have depending on how fast I thought before knocking him away from my child. I've had to put 2 dogs down after owning them for several years for going after one of my children (and no it had nothing to do with the children other than they were there). I understand your heartbreak but you ARE doing the right thing. Far better he goes to a home with no children and an owner who is aware of the potential problem than you try to correct what may be an insurmountable problem with a small child in the house.


----------



## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I dislike how some people have jumped on the 'dominance' bandwagon on this thread. There is not only alot of scientific evidence disproving the majority if not all 'humans are treated by dogs as dogs'. dogs DO percieve other species AS other species.

with suhc a young child, and another on the way, I am certain you have tight time on your hands, and training a dog to be 'better' with children is definately a difficult job for the best of us.

as I suggested, an older dog or puppy from a breeder with kids may be a better idea, at least for the time being


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Muffin: Do you mind if I ask how old the child was that he bit? Just curious.


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you everyone! I am feeling much more confident in my decision, however still miserable because I love Gerry so much already. A part of me wants to cast it off as a 'fluke' and move on, but that is not going to be an option. My daughter recovered from the incident well, after checking out her cheek and wiping off her tears, she was ready to go back and play with them! She's a tough little girl, and pretty used to being nipped at from when Gracie was a puppy LOL

When the incident happened, I stood up, and shouted for Gerry to get of the couch, giving him a good tap on his behind on the way down. My husband put him in the cage while I tended to our daughter. I feel like he did it out of crankiness. I know not to relate dogs to human emotions, but that's the best word I could come up with for it. I see him get like that with Gracie. He'll play with her until he's done, then he gets cranky and snaps at her if she tries to continue the play, especially when she tries to play on the couch. I think, maybe, he sees the couch as his bed and doesn't want to be disturbed while he is on it. I've adjusted my feet once while I was laying on the couch with him and it startled him. In hindsight, be may have snapped in my direction, but I had the laptop blocking my view so I'm not positive. 

Another thing is that he loves playing tug, and seems to always adjust his bite closer to my hand. He's gotten a few good bites in on my hand, it hurt but didn't break skin. I am firm with my dogs that under no circumstances do they try to take a toy from my hand, and when they see my hand (or anyone's) going for a toy they "leave it" and wait for the toy to be thrown. And my daughter knows not to grab a toy that to dog already has (she absolutely loves giving the dogs their toys to play with!) I remember when we first got Gerry I did raise some concern about him playing with Zabrina with their toys. We just made it a rule not to ever play tug with Gerry (vet ordered us to play with Gracie since she still has a baby tooth stuck in her gum). He's also really bad about grabbing treats without chomping down on fingers in the process. Any idea if these other things could be related?


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Leooonie said:


> dogs DO percieve other species AS other species.


An interesting comment about this. My poodle loves playing fetch and they way he will ask you to throw his toy for him is he will run up to you, drop the toy at your feet, then sit or lie down, looking at you in the face, waiting for you to throw it.

My friend was visiting with her 5-month-old baby. We were in the living room talking and Jäger ran up to the baby, who was strapped in his car seat on the floor of the living room, and dropped his toy in front of the baby, then sat down and waited, staring at the baby. 

I thought it was so interesting that he perceievd this tiny little thing strapped into the carseat as "same" as an adult human and thought the baby would be able to throw his toy for him.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Muffin: Not sure if you answered and I didn't see, how old is Zabrina?


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Muffin: Do you mind if I ask how old the child was that he bit? Just curious.


She'll be 15 months on Monday  We got Gracie at 9 weeks while our daughter was only 8 months old so they've both been raised quite firmly how to treat each other. She knows not to pull on tails, ears, fur, etc. and how to pet politely (one finger touch, away from the face).


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

pudelmann said:


> So sorry to hear about the incident. I sincerely hope you and your daughter get over this trauma soon.
> 
> As a complete novice, I cannot offer any advice but this thread really got me thinking. I have two young children (6 and 4) and am planning to get a dog in the near future (as early as next year). I've read quite a few posts here and there recommending first-time dog owners like me to rescue an adult dog and been positively considering it along with going to the breeder route.
> 
> ...


I would like to take back what I took back about adopting older dogs LOL! What I meant was, an older rescue is not ideal for my situation. I would absolutely consider another adult rescue when my kids (yes, I speak of my future kids as if I already have them haha) are older. I think in a household where the children can comprehend what is expected of them around dogs, and they have the communication ability to give the dog commands as well, it would be a lot safer. In my instance, my daughter learns only what I can show her, she can't tell a dog "off" or "leave it", so it is entirely up to dog whether or not to obey a silent or implied command- something that I believe should be taught early in puppyhood. With an adult dog of unknown socialization I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to a child that incapable of asserting themselves.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Muffin, I think you're absolutely doing the right thing. Regardless of what the *issue* is with Gerry, the *fact* is that he does not have a safe level of bite inhibition to live with reasonable freedom in a home with a small child. If it was a fluke, you'll never really know (even if he never does it again, you'll always be waiting and wondering..) And if it's more than a fluke, then these things do not change overnight, if at all. You're making the right choice for yourself, your family, and Gerry! : )

I do hope that this doesn't deter you forever on from adopting adult dogs. Or anyone else who reads this thread, for that matter! Many adult dogs in need of homes are very well adjusted and I consider bites to be a risk inherent to sharing a home with dogs. That doesn't mean it's okay or acceptable, but just that it *can* happen and there's no guaranteeing it won't just by raising all your dogs yourself. The higher the stakes in the household (small children, cats or bunnies), the more important it may be to know the dog's background. But *please* don't rule out rescue forever on this experience. : ) 

I don't subscribe to the dominance theory for the most part, and I feel like Gerry was just asking to be left alone. It's very hard to determine what was actually going on in his head when you weren't prepared for the incident and watching for all the potential signs and triggers. Tell the rescue everything you saw and hopefully they'll have him worked with by a professional behaviorist before deciding what type of home is best for him. I hope Gerry can find the right home for him, and that you can find the right second dog for you!!


----------



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

It really is all about finding the right match when it comes to dogs, especially when there are children involved. I don't just mean the right breed but the right individual dog too. (And children should be taught early on to respect dogs because many bites are actually the child's fault.)

Here's a good website that discusses children and dogs: Why Dogs Bite Children: A Lesson in Preventing Dog Bites in Kids|Victoria Stilwell Positively

Another good one that the above site links to:
Dog Bite Prevention | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS

I personally don't advocate kicking, punching, smacking, or beating dogs. What does it accomplish? Would it prevent the bite that already occurred? No. Will it prevent future bites? Doubtful because the dog has no idea _why_ you just jammed your fist into its ribcage, especially if the dog bit someone out of fear or as a warning. You're basically beating the dog for communicating. 

I simply feel that lashing out in anger isn't the answer and it only exacerbates the problem. Plus, it could make it all the more difficult to rehabilitate the dog. (It also qualifies as cruelty, IMHO.)

Remember, you'll never find the perfect dog just as you probably won't find a _perfect _mate. Hey, we all have faults.  Aim for finding the best match for you and your situation.


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

So sorry this dog wasn't a fit for you; it is certainly the best option to let the rescue find a home that is a better fit all around.

I'm also troubled by the talk of dominance and physical corrections (not surprising :smile. I don't find hitting and kicking to be effective or productive ways to communicate with anyone, including dogs. It's a form of communication, for sure, just not a very good one.

I find it puzzling, the tendency we humans have to immediately class a dog who has bitten as a "bad" dog, an "aggressive" dog, a "dominant" dog. It sounds like the dog was communicating. Not communicating in an acceptable way, certainly, but if he'd either not been taught that this was unacceptable, or he'd been given no other choice, i.e. his signs of discomfort were ignored, then it isn't fair to either blame him or characterise him as a "bad" dog or an "aggressive" dog. He's a dog that responded to a situation in a particular way on a particular day.

All dogs can bite, given sufficient provocation. All dogs. Some dogs never will, because they never feel they have to. Some dogs have a very high threshold for pain, or a very great tolerance for intrusions into their personal space or for behaviour other dogs would see as rude. 

For many dogs, a greater tolerance can be trained. For others, their thresholds are quite low and the training/conditioning process may be unacceptably difficult or long. 

I occasionally communicate unacceptably, and snap at my partner when I've had a bad day and people have shoved me on the Tube and I forgot my umbrella and had to miss lunch and, and, and.... 

Doesn't mean I'm "aggressive", just that circumstances conspired to put me over my threshold in that particular circumstance.


----------



## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> I occasionally communicate unacceptably, and snap at my partner when I've had a bad day


So true I do that too but its far more frequent than occasionally, :angel2: If I don't snap at my 'darling hubby' at least once a day then he hasn't been home long enough on that day! :angel2:


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Muffin, I am sorry that your dog bit your child. :-( It is not anyone's fault and I think it would be better both for you and your family and the dog that he be rehomed somewhere there are not children fulltime. If you are going to have another child, I would suggest you wait a while before looking into getting another dog, either a puppy or from a shelter, as this will give your family and your existing dog time to adjust to one change first.



Countryboy said:


> A backhand in the ribs, or the butt


The only place you should ever hit a dog is on its thigh/bum area, hard and with the flat of your hand. Hitting it anywhere else could cause an injury. *Never *hit a dog in the face as this might cause it to bite people's hands.

Just thought I should mention this as a counterpoint to other comments by people from various different training philosophies. Smacking dogs is not an everyday training technique, but something that can be used if the dog is out of control or presenting a danger to itself or another person/animal. A few dogs (in the experience of people I know with more experience than me) are either wickedly intelligent or not reward-oriented enough to trade a reward for a stupid behaviour that is a reward in and of itself, and hitting them very selectively at carefully chosen moments is effective for training them.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

muffin said:


> When the incident happened, I stood up, and shouted for Gerry to get off the couch, giving him a good tap on his behind on the way down. My husband put him in the cage while I tended to our daughter.


Exactly what I would have done. A good tap/smack on the butt. No beating involved . . . and only in one specific scenario. The dog has snapped at somebody . . and has done it in a situation where u can respond immediately. If more than a few seconds have passed between the crime and the punishment then u may indeed confuse the dog. 



muffin said:


> Another thing is that he loves playing tug, and seems to always adjust his bite closer to my hand. He's gotten a few good bites in on my hand, it hurt but didn't break skin.


It seems to me that a lot of dogs play Tug that way. Do they gain 'points' in the game by limiting the 'grip' of the other player??? Forcing them off the other end of the toy and eventually gaining sole possession???? Who knows... 



muffin said:


> He's also really bad about grabbing treats without chomping down on fingers in the process. Any idea if these other things could be related?


Spud was like that. He was so food motivated and so exuberant that he would go for it immediately. He just WANTED it . . . . FIRST! lol But u had to be careful offering him treats. There was not an aggressive bone in his body but he was QUICK when there was food involved. And a little careless with teeth and fingers. 

And, unlike Tonka, it was almost guaranteed that he was never socialized to kids. So, had he and my grandkids spent much time together, I would have had to train him to stay calm around kids. 

It's part of our responsibility when we take over the care of a pet.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i think 15 months is rather young to introduce an adult rescue hasn't been around kids dog into the home. to be honest, i am surprised that a rescue did that. 

don't get me wrong: i have 3 human children (2 are grown) and i've brought dogs into the home with them. for example, i brought my cairn terrier female as an 8 week old puppy into the home when my daughter was not yet 3. 

but she already had a bit of an idea how to behave around animals. same with my sons. the dogs we had in the home when i gave birth to the children were already very socialized to children from a very young age.

it sounds like you have a good dog going with gracie. hang in there and when your little girl is a bit older, consider bringing in another dog. just my opinion.

oh and i think that's a good idea to return the pupper. it's sad, but it's better for all. 

xoxox


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

:doh:Anyone else want to weigh in on whether to hit a dog hard with the _flat _or _back_ of your hand??:hand: Wonder which approach goes further toward calming the situation and ensuring everyone's safety?:confused3: Let's see, a 15 month old crawls up onto the couch at eye level to a new family dog that's resting near the adult owner. The dog bites the child and_ whack!_ the owner hits the dog hard, flat or back handed, on the bum, maybe pushing the dog even closer to what must now be the crying toddler's face.:hurt: I guess the plastic surgeon might come out the winner on that one.:doctor: Can't imagine anyone else would.

I am_ so glad_ your little one wasn't more badly injured,* muffin*! I hope you can return Gerry to the rescue ASAP. You're _absolutely_ doing the responsible thing. As others have suggested, maybe it's best to enjoy your young and growing family and sweet Gracie as a "singleton poodle" for now.


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Thank you all for the support, this is so hard for me to do. I know it is the right thing, it just really sucks saying goodbye so soon to my Gerry Boy  

I would like to clarify that the tap on the bum I gave to Gerry was completely instinctual, and under no circumstances would I purposefully hit a dog that is obviously already provoked enough to bite in the first place. If it was a true and serious act of aggression, perhaps, but that's a whole other story. 

I was told that Gerry was good around kids- that was one of my very first concerns when adopting a rescue. His foster dad said he was good with kids, and that he trusted him enough to let his neighbor's young daughter take him for walks. We brought our daughter to meet him before we agreed to adopt him and stayed for a good hour or so before agreeing he seemed like a good fit- and he was. He was spectacular aside from a few quirks we've been working on. 

Also, I would normally agree that 15 months is too young to bring a new dog around, and it was something we definitely took into consideration, but we agreed that she has demonstrated excellent mindfulness around dogs from the day we brought her home. She's been raised around dogs- a 13 year old (my first dog, the cranky old fart) at my parents house, and our beloved husky that we made the painful decision to rehome (due to being in an apartment for longer than we expected) just a few months before we got Gracie. She is so good with animals it's not even funny- she's definitely her mother's daughter! (My mom used to call me snow white, the way I could herd a pack of stray and wild animals as a child LOL). She has such a deep bond with our pets (even Gerry still), I definitely feel she is capable of being around dogs, even at this age. But I do assure you, it was not a lighthearted decision. 

One thing that is bothering me though, I called the rescue Wednesday in the early afternoon, they said they would call his foster family and see if they could take him back in, and that they would call me right back. I never got a call back so I called them yesterday evening and was told his foster family is going to call another family that was interested in Gerry, but that the foster family never called them back so that is why they never called me back. She said she would call them again and call me right back, which still hasn't happened. I am going to give them a call here in a bit, but I am so irritated that they won't keep me informed. I feel like I am just being given the run-around, and if I weren't the one calling them everyday, I would completely fall through the cracks. As some of you may know, it was a nightmare and a half just trying to get his vaccination records, as promised, from them. I had to resort to posting publicly on facebook to finally get a response. I probably wouldn't mind fostering Gerry until he finds a great home, I just ask for a little communication on their part! Usually, when this rescue needs to find a dog a new foster they will post an ad on craigslist, but I haven't been seeing any for Gerry. I'm trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but given my experience thus far, I am getting more and more doubtful.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Muffin, I'm sorry about the trouble with the rescue. I hope they follow through with you soon. I'm not sure what type of rescue group you found, but sometimes they can get more hung up on number of dogs homed than successful matches. I worked with a rescue once and fostered a dog whom I discovered to have some issues, and I told the group he should not go with children. They placed him with a family, though, and after a few days the mother called me very upset and asked me to come get the dog right away. Fortunately, no one had been hurt, but one little boy and his mom got very scared! Even after the incident and against my suggestion, they put him in another home with children. I don't know what happened after that as I no longer work with that group. It seems some rescues want to "save" every dog, but may not be very realistic about it. That's why it's important to also go with *your* gut about any new dogs you meet or consider adopting, and try to go with a well-known and established organization. If this group continues to give you the run around, please don't feel wrong about rehoming Gerry yourself. You just might find him a better home than they would if they're not being honest with themselves about the situation! Best of luck and keep us posted!


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I am really sorry you are going through this, *muffin*. This sounds like a nightmare, especially in a rescue situation. I support your decision to try to find him another home. Maybe he's good with older kids.

Your post really hits home for me because I just rescued a 2 year old Havanese, Louis. I'm wondering how old is Gerry? My dad has always said that he'd never trust a dog he didn't raise himself from puppyhood, but there are so many dogs in need that I wanted to get an older dog. It's been a little over a week (almost 2 weeks) since I've had my new dog. Some of his personality is showing through:

1. I was so glad that he and Leroy played with toys so well. But then Louis would get into these "primal" phases where he'd get really interested in a toy, and of course Leroy wants THAT toy just because his friend has it (there's a BIN full of toys). Louis would growl and stare Leroy down. I was appalled by this. So I used my hands around Louis's face while he played with the toy, tugged on it, grabbed it etc, he did not growl at me. I also played tug with the toy he was obsessed with by putting it in my mouth and playing exactly like a dog. Everytime Leroy came near, his eyes would go towards Leroy and growl. SO, I knew he was communicating in dog-language to a dog. He did not act like this towards me. I still correct him when he growls at Leroy because really, what is there to compete over? There's so many toys, I want to teach him to calm down and there's plenty of resources to go around. Leroy is so sweet he does keep his distance. They still play with toys together though.

2. I had made a comment to someone "I'm so glad Louis doesn't get possessive when he's in my lap and Leroy comes by for attention too" - but last night when Louis was in his toy frenzy, I laid down and had him on my chest petting him. Leroy came by and Louis growled again. I told him "NO" and pushed him off. He also growled when I was preparing Leroy's food. I corrected him again. My corrections are a firm NO and pushing them away or a light tap.

3. Louis gets along with my cats very well. But when he was laying down sleeping, one of my cats came by and started sniffing his head. He did a low growl. I shooed my cat away, he woke up, sniffed my cat's nose and was happy and wagging his tail. When he sleeps, he does go into a deep sleep and startles easily.

4. He is also very food motivated, and when I give him treats he's like a little piranha. When he plays with toys, you better watch your fingers cause he snaps - not trying to bite you, but bite the toy, but if you're not careful he might accidentally get your finger. I don't think these are signs of "aggression" - just exuberance. My friend's dog takes treats the same way (almost taking your hand off) but he is very well trained, attentive, and lives with a cat.

The main difference between Louis and Leroy is that when I take them for a walk, Louis barks at people walking by (he is a little scared), and Leroy is nearly choking himself trying to say hi to the person. Leroy loves everyone he meets, Louis is more reserved. I guess they balance each other. Leroy cannot say hi to kids because he gets SO excited he punches them. I don't know how Louis would react around children. He probably would dislike them because he startles easily in new situations, hates sudden movements and loud noises.... which are the exact descriptions of kids! Luckily he is in a home without children, but your post makes me think about the future. If he would be compatible with a baby or a child. I'm also very vigilant when it comes to Louis's behavior because my husband gave me a hard time about adopting an older dog we've never met before. Louis does not like people coming on too strongly, and he growled and barked at my boss. When he was picked up by him today, my boss commented "This dog kinda scares me. I always feel like he'll bite me" - he said he could feel Louis's body tensing up and would give a "look." I just think he's scared of people he does not know. Once he's warmed up to you, he's a completely different dog. So perhaps he'd be okay with a child within his "pack" (I hope so!). 

I just assume that Louis was not socialized around people and that he is going through a lot of "firsts" with me. Like going for walks. Walking on a leash. Going potty while walking on a leash. Playing with toys. Getting treats, etc. I know you really cared for Gerry and enjoyed your other posts about him. I hope you find out more info from the other foster family. I'm so glad your daughter wasn't more injured.


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

So the rescue did finally call me this afternoon and I met his foster family at a pet store across town. I got the feeling they were a little annoyed, and when I tried explaining that I think he would do better with older kids and a bed of his own and maybe not allowed on the couch since that seems to be his trigger- protecting his spot on the couch they kind of just nodded, and seemed like it went in one ear and out the other. I just felt an overall sense that they thought I was being irresponsible returning him. I am sure a lot of people return dogs from this rescue because maybe they didn't realize that dogs take work, but come on, it's not like I'm returning him over a little housebreaking or chewing problem. Oh well. I wouldn't surprise me if they did place him with another family with small children. They did say if I found another dog through them that seems like a better fit I would be able get one. I have been such a wreck LOL I felt so bad for crying in front of them, but goodbyes are so hard for me! 

Tokipoke, it sounds like we use a lot of the same training methods! I love hearing successful rescue stories, and it sounds like you are well on your way! Kudos to you for taking in a dog in need  I would love to have been in a situation where I could have continued working with Gerry, but clearly my daughter must come first and it simply wasn't an option. 

I'm so freaking sad about this whole thing. This evening my daughter picks up Gerry's favorite toy and starts looking around for him, under the coffee table, in his cage, in the kitchen, back under the coffee table... until she finally gave a big sigh looked at me and says "Gee??" (how she says Gerry). It was truly heartbreaking.


----------



## qtpoodle (Jan 15, 2012)

The rescue didn't do a good job of finding the right fit for you and for Gerry. I've only had great rescue experiences, and I've rescued 5 dogs. Only one of them was a puppy, and the oldest one was about 7-9 years old when I got her. I am so glad the rescue took Gerry back and that your daughter wasn't harmed more than she was. I hope you give rescues another chance. Many of them are not like Gerry. 

My newest rescue is my mini poodle, Meadow. She wasn't socialized so she's a little shy, but she's very sweet. She's almost too sweet to the point that she's like velcro. I knew she would take more work to get her to behave like my other dogs so I enrolled her in training classes with a great local dog trainer. I've been able to train my other dogs on my own, but she's extremely energetic, and she just needs more self confidence. I see more confidence in her each day.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Muffin, did you happen to show them pictures of your daughters bruises? I can see how if they don't know you from Adam, they might think your judgment's a bit off and that Gerry may not have done anything inappropriate or that you're over-reacting, but it's also kind of reckless of them to not take your experience more seriously. Either they don't trust you and think you don't know what you're talking about, but are still willing to adopt a dog to you (why??), or they don't care about/acknowledge important temperament issues with the dogs they rehome. Either way, I'd chose not to rescue from them in the future. : / Sounds like they're not addressing important aspects of the rescue and rehoming process. I'm sure you don't want to seem like a pain or like you're making trouble for Gerry, but if you have pictures of your daughter's bite, it might be a good idea to show them/email them. It can help to make sure Gerry isn't put in the wrong environment, where someone else may chose to take more serious, and permanent, action if he goofs up again. : / I just hate to see dogs put in situations that aren't appropriate for them! They don't ask to live in the homes we chose for them, and then they just respond as they see fit. It's never their fault, but the consequences are always theirs to bear.

Tokipoke, Lumi's a bit of a resource guarder. She would growl if the cats came near her while she had a bully stick. Usually she'd be chewing it on my lap or at my feet, and the kitties would come over to cuddle with me. What I started to do was only allow her to have the stick when I was there to supervise, it was never just "out". I'd have treats handy and have her on my lap or nearby for pets and praise. When I saw the cat come into the room - before Lumi even cared - I'd say "Yay!" and start giving her treats and pets and play a little tug with her bully (Lumi likes that! Don't touch Louis' things if he prefers to play alone - the point is to make things *more* fun when the "opposition" arrives!). If she growled or got too anxious/possessive, I'd say "Oops" and take her bully away for a few seconds, then give it back. If she kept goofing up, then the cat was too close for her current comfort level and we'd just put the bully stick away. Little by little, I'd wait until the cat got closer and closer before starting the "party" and eventually she'd be happily chewing her stick while the kitties crawled all over us. Okay, she sometimes gets a little tense if they stick their nose right up to sniff it, and the cats can totally feel what she's saying and just leave her alone, but I figure communication is normal. I wouldn't want to teach her she *can't* growl or send them away, only to have them overstep her (what would then be invisible) comfort level and get snapped at or bit! I just think of the way dogs correct each other for being rude. We know it's okay for a dog to bark or growl at another dog who approaches too quickly/excitedly. If we punish a dog for doing this, that's how we end up with dogs who don't speak up until they feel *really* threatened, and then lash out in defense! I hope Louis continues to make good progress in your family! A Havanese and a Poodle must make for some fun grooming options!! Is he white, by chance? ; )


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

qtpoodle said:


> The rescue didn't do a good job of finding the right fit for you and for Gerry. I've only had great rescue experiences, and I've rescued 5 dogs. Only one of them was a puppy, and the oldest one was about 7-9 years old when I got her. I am so glad the rescue took Gerry back and that your daughter wasn't harmed more than she was. I hope you give rescues another chance. Many of them are not like Gerry.
> 
> My newest rescue is my mini poodle, Meadow. She wasn't socialized so she's a little shy, but she's very sweet. She's almost too sweet to the point that she's like velcro. I knew she would take more work to get her to behave like my other dogs so I enrolled her in training classes with a great local dog trainer. I've been able to train my other dogs on my own, but she's extremely energetic, and she just needs more self confidence. I see more confidence in her each day.


Meadow sounds like a sweetheart  I would love to rescue more dogs in the future, but I don't think it will happen soon. I get way too attached and if something like this happens again I will be devastated. I am still convinced I could have worked with Gerry, but hubby was adamant about not taking the risk, and it's kind of hard to argue with that. But I definitely envision a future trip to the the shelter and letting the kids pick out a dog  



PammiPoodle said:


> Muffin, did you happen to show them pictures of your daughters bruises? I can see how if they don't know you from Adam, they might think your judgment's a bit off and that Gerry may not have done anything inappropriate or that you're over-reacting, but it's also kind of reckless of them to not take your experience more seriously. Either they don't trust you and think you don't know what you're talking about, but are still willing to adopt a dog to you (why??), or they don't care about/acknowledge important temperament issues with the dogs they rehome. Either way, I'd chose not to rescue from them in the future. : / Sounds like they're not addressing important aspects of the rescue and rehoming process. I'm sure you don't want to seem like a pain or like you're making trouble for Gerry, but if you have pictures of your daughter's bite, it might be a good idea to show them/email them. It can help to make sure Gerry isn't put in the wrong environment, where someone else may chose to take more serious, and permanent, action if he goofs up again. : / I just hate to see dogs put in situations that aren't appropriate for them! They don't ask to live in the homes we chose for them, and then they just respond as they see fit. It's never their fault, but the consequences are always theirs to bear.


I did take pictures, but she had food on her face (bad momma LOL) so it's kind of hard to see the bruises. I didn't even think to take another picture after her bath. I'll probably email the pics I do have anyway. I can totally see how they would think he was good with kids- he really is. I think it is more an issue of not wanting to be bothered while sleeping. I think he would have bitten if it was Gracie, my foot, my daughter, anything else... Now, however, I think it would be best he didn't go to a home with kids for purely precautionary reasons. I really hope he finds the best home.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

PammiPoodle said:


> A Havanese and a Poodle must make for some fun grooming options!! Is he white, by chance? ; )


Hi Pammi - it's fun having my Havanese. I like having a different hair texture to play with and try different products on. I colored him today, and he makes me think of Lumi. It would be a sight to see these two play! http://www.poodleforum.com/8-other-animals/18380-color-fun-my-havanese.html#post226033

About resources guarding, sometimes I don't blame him when he growls at Leroy. Leroy ALWAYS wants whatever Louis has, even if he has the same exact thing. And when Leroy gets excited, it's probably annoying to Louis - to have this bumbling, long-legged oaf trampling around near him. I've been watching Louis closely though. I gave him a bully stick today and he was fine chewing it around the cats. But then again, I didn't let my cat get too close.

*muffin* - I'm sorry the foster family seems so indifferent! It must be so frustrating. Here you are trying your hardest to help this dog and it's like no one else cares. This is exactly why dogs become un-placable cause people are careless.


----------



## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

"Jarrod is a very gentle cuddle bug who loves to lay with you and watch tv. He does very well with his foster brother and sisters and he enjoys playing with dogs of all sizes. Jarrod is potty trained and kennel trained. He likes going for walks and does very well on his leash. If your looking for someone who with play when you want to play but also know to relax when you do, then Jarrod is perfect for you."

This was posted this morning on the rescue's facebook page (Jarrod was his name when we got him, we named him Gerry because it sounded similar but I hate the name Jarrod LOL). I hadn't seen anything about him until now, and was hoping the foster family decided to keep him, but apparently not. And the post says NOTHING about him being unsuitable with small children. This is so frustrating. I wish I would have fostered him myself so I could make sure he goes to a great family. I really, really hope they take the extra care to place him in a suitable home FOR HIM. Even if the bite was a one off thing, it's obvious he doesn't like to be pestered a whole lot by other dogs or children. Sure, he can get along with them and tolerate them, but by would you want to put him in a place where he's going to have his patience tested and possibly pushed to the point of another bite?! Give him a home that HE can enjoy, with older children and calmer dogs. At least give the people a fair warning that he could use a little work, if nothing else. I just pray that Gerry finds a good home.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

muffin said:


> I'm totally rethinking everything I said about adopting an older dog. We adopted Gerry about 3 weeks ago and he's been nothing but gentle and sweet to my daughter, and my daughter knows her manners around dogs (no getting in the dog's face, etc) but this morning while me and Gerry were sitting on the couch, daughter tries to climb up and the stupid dog bit her cheek! And not in a playful way, in the 'don't bother me, I'm trying to sleep' sort of way. I've seen him do this to Gracie, but never imagined he would do that to a human! She didn't even touch him, I was sitting _right there_, she barely put her hand on the couch.
> 
> After a long debate with the hubby I called the rescue and he is going back. I can't believe I even took the chance adopting an older dog that I didn't personally train myself. Ugh. I feel like crap. I don't think he meant to do it (I hope)- It's possible he could have thought she was Gracie for that split second, but we agreed that it's not even worth the chance of it happening again. He left three blue/purple teeth marks on her face, still every bit as visible tonight before bed.
> 
> ...



Wrong? No. It wouldn't be my response, but I would NEVER say you are wrong for protecting your daughter first.


----------



## Pup's mom (Mar 15, 2011)

*My experience and my opinion *

Before we bought Pup, we got another little puppy.
A black Standard from a lady who had a litter, 2 left.
I took him home and the poor little thing was so lethargic, so pitiful and so very adorable. I found that while I wanted to love him and bond with him, I also noticed that he was odd acting and did not act like most puppies do, bonding with me as his "mom" ..After a week, we took him back, he was just not working out and I worried that if we kept him too long, it would be harder on him to be taken away from us.
I found out by accident a few weeks later that he had died, of some dog illness that I don't remember but something he should not have had.
The woman that sold him to us was obviously not honest.
I wept over that puppy ! I felt like I failed it.
Then my husband found the breeder that we had tried earlier and found that there were 2 puppies available.
A black one and a brown one.
We took that brown one home and from the minute we walked out the door with him, he was ours, he bonded immediately and we were a happy family for almost 12 years.
When it works, it works perfectly.
When it doesn't, you have to do whatever it is that will make things right, even if it means sending it back.
In the almost 12 years that we had Pup, I never Ever lifted my hand to him. A stern voice was all it took for him to know if he had been a bad boy. and he rarely was a bad boy.
Anyone who resorts to hitting a dog, is lacking.
There is something wrong with a person who cannot deal with an animal without striking it.
This sort of person should not have dogs.
In my opinion.


----------



## kailyn (Mar 22, 2012)

PaddleAddict said:


> An interesting comment about this. My poodle loves playing fetch and they way he will ask you to throw his toy for him is he will run up to you, drop the toy at your feet, then sit or lie down, looking at you in the face, waiting for you to throw it.
> 
> My friend was visiting with her 5-month-old baby. We were in the living room talking and Jäger ran up to the baby, who was strapped in his car seat on the floor of the living room, and dropped his toy in front of the baby, then sat down and waited, staring at the baby.
> 
> I thought it was so interesting that he perceievd this tiny little thing strapped into the carseat as "same" as an adult human and thought the baby would be able to throw his toy for him.


my mini poo sleep is neurotic about fetch, and if all the humans are tapped out of throwing it for her, she takes it to my english setter Berkley and politely drops it for him to "take over". since he does not throw it, she nudges it closer and closer, and re assumes her "fetch" stance. its Hilarious.


----------

