# Adult/puppy interactions - behavioural question.



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

When Freddy first came home Sophy said he was allowed in the house, but not within 8 feet of her bed. After an hour or two he was allowed closer, but only if he was polite and didn't touch her or her bed. I have taken great care not to let him tease the older dogs, and he is mostly polite and respectful - if he gets too bouncy and barky and bitey it is a sure sign that he needs a nap, and he gets settled down in his pen with toys and biscuits and snoozes it off. Mostly Sophy has been ignoring behaviour she doesn't like, turning her head away and staring into the middle distance, or when he gets a bit much staring at me to ask me to put him to bed. If necessary she doesn't hesitate to correct him with a growl, and if that is ignored a firm snark. She has never liked rough play - she will interrupt other dogs' games if she feels they are getting too exuberant.

Yesterday there was a step change - Sophy is now sort of playing with him, or is it telling him how she likes to play, or just telling him to stop it? She stands in the middle of the room while he bounces round her grabbing at her ears, her mouth open, and makes little open mouthed gestures towards him. After a minute or two I feel she is getting stressed and remove him, but as there are umpteen places she could go to get out of his reach it is obviously deliberate on her part. My best guess is that it is the next stage in his education, that she doesn’t particularly enjoy but knows is necessary for him to grow into a civilised adult. 

Any observations? Anyone seen this between adult and pup? It is similar to maternal play behaviour around the time of weaning, but not quite the same.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

That sounds just like Flower ignoring little Beatrice. As in playing is okay but biting at me is not, I am a tree ignoring thee


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Sounds familiar. Elroy is an exuberant puppy. Has been all along. If another dog that he was playing with gets pooped out and tries to take a break, Elroy postures, does circles around him, nips at his ears, pokes at his butt, etc., in an effort to get him to play with him some more/again. He'll give him the mouthy looks, and generally tolerate it, but sometimes he doesn't want it any more and give him a corrective growl/snark. Sometimes it works for him and they play some more too. I usually try to let the adult dog teach him when it's enough, although sometimes he just doesn't give up and then I have to put him on leash to settle. It's different for each playmate.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yes, it is rather like the "I've had enough" behaviour of a playful dog, but without the play. She was completely ignoring him, just as you say Flower did Bea, Twyla, but this is more engaged, not quite playing but not quite discouraging either. It could simply be that she is trying to fend him off while telling me that she needs to go out, and I am overthinking things again!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I've given this some thought, and I believe I recall Mia doing this with her friend, Eddie, when he was a young puppy. She was 7 years old when he came home from the breeder, and I observed a progression in how she responded to him on our weekly walks: 1) she ignored him completely; 2) she showed mild interest at the beginning of the walks and then ignored him for the remainder; 3) she engaged in the behavior fjm describes, which in hindsight I interpret as a half in/half out or should I/shouldn't I, leading in to the final stage; 4) when he was a closer match in size at around 5-6 months, she began playing with him in full.

Since we were walking together, Mia had other ways to tell Eddie off, including the most obvious of just moving far and fast to get away from him. Because this behavior is in your home, where her movement is more restricted, I would listen to your instincts as to when Sophy has had enough. But all in all, I think it's part of the normal progression towards a healthy relationship. Mia and Eddie are certainly best buds now, 3.5 years later.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Liz - I am watching very carefully for signs of stress, and she has comfy spots on chairs and sofa where she can be undisturbed even when he is out of the pen. We have all been playing Follow the Leader and Wait/Come in the garden, with bits of chicken pancake as rewards, and Sophy has now found Freddy's puppy Kong and taken it up onto a cushion on the sofa to chew, while Freddy plays with the Squiggle and Poppy snoozes. Such good dogs, although I think Freddy would quite like his Kong back!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I've had lots of opportunity to watch adult/puppy interaction recently, as I have a litter of Corsos. Raffi is a saint with them, but you would maybe not guess it from pictures. He most often plays with them with his mouth open, but just nudges them with his muzzle. When they get too bitey or hang on his tail, he very gently holds their head in his mouth until they let go. It's actually amazing to watch.
Anyways, so my point is that one 'reading' of her behavior is that she is figuring put how to play with him. Most dogs correctly identify young puppies but sometimes they need some time to figure out how to interact (as in my friend's dog, who she brought over to meet the pups, stood and stared at them, did some fake-outs, then tried to paw at them).
Perhaps you could call him away for a treat (for both, of course!) and then allow him to go back to her if he wants, and if she seems ok with it? A mini-break could allow her to choose to move away from him or to continue to interact.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Pogo used to invite play with what I called the rounded mouth gesture. He would open his mouth wide so you could see his fangs, but he hid his back teeth with his lips. You can see the contrast here where Pogo in his play bow is hiding his back teeth and Galen has his mouth open normally.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm in a different situation, lol. Evelyn is the one overstimulating the puppy and I have to call Evelyn off of him when Ranna is trying to explore or potty. But he definitely does the same fake snarly face inside where Ranna has the upper hand and Evelyn doesn't have room to maneuver. 



















But after a half an hour of playing outside together Ranna usually ends up covered in drool on his head.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I think you’ve got it right; it’s the next step to her teaching. She is teaching him how to behave around a dog who’s standing still. Next, she’ll be teaching him how to play.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

The puppy and adult dog play is really new to us and we are learning just as they are.
Both Joey and Bobby can get too excited so we definitely have to keep and eye on things. 

They are having fun in both of these pictures.

Joey is actually teaching Bobby to play tug.








“Bitey face” is the favorite and they play several times throughout the day. Lots of teeth showing every time.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

We call it "Sea Lioning" and it's a favorite!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Bitey face was Sophy and Poppy's favourite game for years - they particularly liked to play it in the queue at the bank, for some reason, and were small enough and quiet enough that they could do so without disturbing anyone. 

Looking back Sophy's behaviour is similar to the way she worked to civilise neighbours' puppies, but that was outside with far more space and I was less concerned about stress levels - when she'd had enough she could just go home. Freddy's brain is having to work very hard - all those rules of dog politeness to learn and then human rules as well; no wonder he needs to sleep so much.


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## Deere (Jun 25, 2021)

fjm said:


> Yes, it is rather like the "I've had enough" behaviour of a playful dog, but without the play. She was completely ignoring him, just as you say Flower did Bea, Twyla, but this is more engaged, not quite playing but not quite discouraging either. It could simply be that she is trying to fend him off while telling me that she needs to go out, and I am overthinking things again!


I think she is assessing him & thinking about playing with him. I have seen this with Ivan's Aunt the female Great Dane; sometimes she plays with him and sometimes she just watches him with an occasional special bark that made him run under the kitchen table towards me. I do not interfere when she corrects him because she's teaching him the correct way to interact.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

WE too are going thru the play stage....puppy instigates, Renn doesn't stop all mouth but soft mouth, puppy shows teeth, Renn does not. I keep a pet convincer on hand when they go for too long and puppy looking for a place to stop. Usually he will just lie down and Renn will stand over him waiting. Yesterday for the first time they laid side by side still playing as I think they were tired of running.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If Freddy is getting annoying it is a pretty sure sign he needs a sleep - a couple of treats tossed into his bed and he settles there, I close the gate of the pen and everyone relaxes. This morning he was being obnoxious while I was trying to do my hip exercises and found himself unceremoniously dumped in the bathroom and the door closed - that time he needed a poo, which is the other trigger.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

everyday they teach us a new signal for what they need or want. LOL I've been having one problem with this pup of mine, for now reason it seems he suddenly pees not he floor, we can go weeks and then in a day he can have 2-3 accidents. I'm learning that it seems to be related to over excitement and not having gone out immediately prior to said excitement. Yesterday I had him blocked off in the kitchen while I went to do some grocery shopping. When I came in with packages he was all excited and I opened the gate, left it opened and instead of taking him right out, I went and put some groceries away, and suddenly my husband was yelling...yep peed right on the living room floor, then again later in day on kitchen floor when I let big poodle in for them to go out to have playtime. Thats when it hit me, I think his bladder is still weak and when he gets excited he just goes. He is also the first dog I have not crate trained, when I did I never had accidents at all. Other than that he seems to go to the door quietly and I know he has to go out and seems to be able to hold it. So staying with step 1..dog goes out 1st before I do anything.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it is now definitely Sophy teaching Freddy to play appropriately - lots of noise, lots of play biting, and lots of breaking off and starting again. There are plenty of places she can easily get to where he can't reach her, and she often chooses to get up on the sofa or the third stair out of his reach, but there are also brief bursts of playing bitey facey that they both seem to enjoy. Then Freddy gets carried away, grabs her ear hair and hangs on, and either I intervene or Sophy yells at him. Her tolerance is higher than mine - once things begin to get rowdy I switch them both to calmer activities, like a walk outside, the much loved Onefer game (turn taking for treats), or settling down in comfy beds.

They ran zoomies together the other day - lovely to see. Not quite a game yet, but the first steps to one.


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## Deere (Jun 25, 2021)

Sophy is training him the correct behavior for dog society and human society. I think it's amazing and so interesting to watch. You are so fortunate to be able to watch them interact.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

This evening is getting extremely interesting. At one point Freddy was running tight zoomy circles around the coffee table and Sophy, and ducked to run right underneath her! She seemed remarkably relaxed about it - anything except grabbing ears and tail is acceptable. She is now mithering me - whether because her bed is not quite right or because she wants me to let him out of his pen to play again is hard to tell. He definitely needs to start winding down or he will be OTT at bedtime.


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