# Questions about Moyen poodles in America



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I thought I would start a new thread about moyen poodles and list some questions I have about them. There are a lot of people who feel passionately about what makes a good breeder. I am hoping we can discuss this topic calmly and allow others to disagree with us.

The first question that comes to mind is whether is it correct to the use of the term "moyen." Some would say that the ONLY true moyen poodle comes from Europe and that what we see in America (if the dog is not imported from Europe) is a mid-sized poodle that was derived by either (1) breeding oversized minis together until the larger size puppy was consistently being born or more likely by (2) breeding a mini to a standard until the 18-30 lb range poodle was consistently being born.

So some would say that if the dog is not imported from Europe, then it should not be called moyen. At most, it is moyen sized.

My take is that the term "moyen" has been adopted in America to represent the moyen-sized poodle, and we should just accept the term. We can always ask the breeder more questions about lineage of the poodle.

The 2nd topic I can think of about moyens is that the breeders of this size do not typically do genetic testing. It seems to me that there are more moyen breeders in America who are starting to do that. Since there are toy, mini, and standard breeders in America who do not genetically test their dogs, it is not an issue that only affects the breeders of moyen sized poodles.

The 3rd question that I can think of is that breeders of moyen sized poodles may not show their dogs because it is hard to finish a poodle that would be considered a standard by AKC rules but is very small for a standard. Whether or not moyen breeders show is a very controversial topic because some people feel ALL breeders should show their dogs to make sure the dogs have the correct confirmation. Or they should at least enter their dogs in some sort of performance competition to prove they are structurally sound.

If a person does not show the dog but still has a healthy, genetically tested poodle and is selling the puppies are a lower price because they do not have the expense of showing and finishing the dogs, why is this not all right?

If a miniature was mixed with a standard somewhere along the line to get the moyen size, but the dogs have been healthy and have been genetically tested for quite a while, why is this not all right?

I know some people feel the ONLY reason to breed poodles is to better the confirmation of the breed. But other people just want a reasonably priced healthy pet poodle in the range of 18-30 lbs. They do not care if the poodle is exactly conforming to AKC standard. They just want a pet poodle and do not want to pay over a $1000 to get one. 

I am hoping that the moyen breeder who recently joined the forum will contribute his viewpoint to this discussion. And if he does, I hope we will treat him nicely if his viewpoint differs from ours.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Wow, very interesting debate, Minipoo ! Can't wait to read the answers to all those great questions !


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This is an interesting and important topic MiniPoo. Thanks for starting the thread. 

I am not necessarily interested in a moyen for myself since I like larger dogs, but I certainly do recognize that for many people that 4th option being available in a predictable and responsible way would be greatly helpful in making a decision about size since looking for "oversize" minis or "small" spoos can be a big gamble.

My feeling these days is that most spoo breeders who show in AKC are not looking to put up gigantic dogs since they don't do well in the ring. Judges pick dogs that are more in Lily's size range (22 3/4" at withers, 36 pounds) or a little bigger. These are the dogs that the judges put up. So I am not entirely sure that a dog that was a moyen couldn't show favorably. It would probably make more sense for PCA and AKC to decide to recognize the fourth size though. As an aside I have had many people insist to me that Lily was a moyen. Some of them were, in fact, rather obnoxious about it. But then again since her first year was also the first year of Bo Obama, lots of people also tried to convince me she was a portie!

In the meantime I think that if someone has been reliably producing moyens and health tests they do have an outlet to demonstrate the temperaments and physical soundness of their dogs in performance venues like obedience, rally and agility. I would guess moyens would most likely end up being 16 or 20" jumping dogs in agility where they would be facing off against larger shelties (16") or smaller BCs (20"). I think they could rock it in those jump heights.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Awesome topic and great points your brought up. There is no reason for anyone to get heated up about any of them. 



MiniPoo said:


> The 2nd topic I can think of about moyens is that the breeders of this size do not typically do genetic testing. It seems to me that there are more moyen breeders in America who are starting to do that. Since there are toy, mini, and standard breeders in America who do not genetically test their dogs, it is not an issue that only affects the breeders of moyen sized poodles.


Totally agree with this. All available genetic testing should be done. Just breeding dogs without testing is irresponsible.



MiniPoo said:


> The 3rd question that I can think of is that breeders of moyen sized poodles may not show their dogs because it is hard to finish a poodle that would be considered a standard by AKC rules but is very small for a standard. Whether or not moyen breeders show is a very controversial topic because some people feel ALL breeders should show their dogs to make sure the dogs have the correct confirmation. Or they should at least enter their dogs in some sort of performance competition to prove they are structurally sound.


IMO, If you want to be considered a serious breeder you need to prove your dogs in some way. 



MiniPoo said:


> If a person does not show the dog but still has a healthy, genetically tested poodle and is selling the puppies are a lower price because they do not have the expense of showing and finishing the dogs, why is this not all right?


There are no laws against it but such a breeder would get put into the backyard breeder category. Maybe a "better backyard breeder" because of their doing the testing. But I have a question about such a breeder's quality of poodle. Where is such a breeder obtaining their breeding stock? We have all seen poodles who are terrible conformation-wise. I think to be taken seriously, they need to probably start off with imported Moyens.



MiniPoo said:


> If a miniature was mixed with a standard somewhere along the line to get the moyen size, but the dogs have been healthy and have been genetically tested for quite a while, why is this not all right?


Is it possibly that simple that "someone bred with a miniature to a standard somewhere along the line" and has built a variety on that. I'd love to hear how that went. 



MiniPoo said:


> I know some people feel the ONLY reason to breed poodles is to better the confirmation of the breed. But other people just want a reasonably priced healthy pet poodle in the range of 18-30 lbs. They do not care if the poodle is exactly conforming to AKC standard. They just want a pet poodle and do not want to pay over a $1000 to get one.


Well, all purebred dogs are expensive. I'm sorry but anyway, there is no such thing as any cheap dog.

pr


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## JeanieBee (Nov 4, 2021)

Following.... I'm also trying to understand the Moyen Poodle and looking for a breeder. I want a friendly temperament with a "hypoallergenic" dog around 30 pounds. We have an English F1B goldendoodle (Standard poodle mom and a goldendoodle dad) and would like to get a second dog. I live in South Carolina.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Some good questions here, but this thread has been inactive since 2015 and is unlikely to attract any new replies.

@JeanieBee, type “moyen” into the search bar and then sort the results by most recent. That’ll pull up some active discussions for you.


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