# Need some food advice.



## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

So I have written before about Zero's piddling problem. She is now almost 17 months old, so "growing out of it" isn't the option. She was diagnosed with calcium oxylate crystals and the vet wanted her on a low protein diet. I put her on Hills with corn because she also has a problem regulating her PH and corn helps with that. But the piddling is back - it never went away completely, but it is back with a vengeance and has a fishy odor. She has an appt with the vet on Tuesday and I am sure she has another infection. So my question is-- what are some of your experiences and suggestions for a piddling poodle? She is submissive, but I think it is more physical than emotional. It is better when she can run free in the yard and not be on leash, but since she has discovered the cow poo in the neighbor's pasture, I have had to only walk her on leash or put her on her tie out.   So another question - what lower protein food would you recommend? I have noticed her eyes are goobie -she is black so no stains, but yucky. She also has ear infections. I am ready to make a food change to help her out so I need recommendations and why you like that food. Thanks!


----------



## jeffsf (Dec 6, 2010)

Sorry to hear about your challenges!

Let me start off by saying that I'm not a vet nor a nutritionist. I do believe in making informed decisions about medical care, human or companion, and that medical professionals may not always provide up-to-date recommendations. Unfortunately, there is a lot of information out there from AAFCO (the pet-food industry, not a government organization) that is provided to vets that I consider to be more about selling high-profit feed rather than being in the companion animal's best interests.

Here's some suggestions that you might want to explore with your vet, other vets, or a reputable animal nutritionist.

It seems to me that you have a couple issues:

Recurring unirary-tract infections
Calcium oxalate crystals (very important distinction from _struvite _crystals
Ear infections

Strombeck (references at the end) states:

_Most pets are fed commercial pet foods prior to forming calcium oxalate calculi.

[...]

The following diets contain low oxalate and minimum calcium. They also contain normal phosphorus, which prevents absorption of excess calcium. The diet should contain no more than the minimum Vitamin D to minimize absorption of dietary calcium. Diets for cats must promote acid urine, but that may be less important for dogs. Most importantly, the following diets provide enough magnesium to minimize calculi formation. Magnesium should be 20 to 40 milligrams/100 kilocalories of diet. High dietary sodium increases urine calcium, prompting some to recommend reducing dietary salt. It is unknown whether this promotes calculi formation, however. Anything increasing water consumption reduces stone recurrence. Current recommendations are to feed a vegetarian-type high-fiber diet that is low in oxalate, calcium, and vitamin D. The pet should also not be given excess amounts of substances, such as vitamin C, that can be converted to oxalate.
_

This was written in 1999, and I take that comment about "commercial pet foods" to mean the generic kind of low- to mid-quality foods, in which I include the mainstream "prescription" diets. (I believe there are high-quality commercial foods available, and am not a "raw or you are a horrible person" type.) 

As far as I can tell, there is _nothing _in the "prescription" diets that is considered a drug. Much of the impetus to sell these diets, I believe, comes from seemingly scientific books, such as Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, which is given to vets "compliments of Hills," rather than things like the NRC reports (which the AAFCO dismisses, as it started suggesting in 1985 that feeding trials were needed to determine if a food was nutritionally complete). Unfortunately, these are nice, high-profit products for vets to sell.

I have read that "low protein" diets can help as well, though the recommendations that I have seen also are clear that it is important to have highly-digestible proteins, which corn is not.

I have never heard that corn magically manages urinary pH.

Getting into a higher-quality food will generally reduce the amount of sodium (salt), as well as hard-to-digest ingredients and non-essential additives.

My recommendations would be to:

1) Ensure that Zero has plenty of water. Lots. 

2) Feed a high-quality commercial food, such as Acana (Champion Pet Foods), that does not have high levels of protein (as would its sister brand, Orijen, for example). 

There are other options of similar quality from other manufacturers. 

Acana Adult Dog, for example, supplies 0.09% magnesium, or 900 mg/kg, which, at 4050 kcal/kg, works out to ~22 mg/100 kcal -- well within what Strombeck suggests. 

It would not surprise me that a change of diet significantly improves both the incidence of urinary-tract infections (less poorly-digested "crap" being passed through the urine) as well as possibly the ear infections.

3) Consider managing the ear infections with plain, white vinegar, daubed into the outer ear once a day using a Q-Tip

This reduces the pH of the ear, which makes for a less-friendly place for yeasts to grow. This isn't "rinsing" the ear, by any stretch! It is just lightly swabbing the outer ear around the canal (you don't want to push wax or hair into the canal). This was recommended by our vet and we've been very successful managing one of our kids propensity for "stinky ear" this way.


Nutrition references, in my opinion, worth consulting:

Strombeck, _Home Prepared Dog & Cat Diets: The Healthful Alternative, _Blackwell Publishing, ISBN 978-0813821489, 1999 (Out of print, a lot is available on Google Books)

National Research Council, _Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats (Nutrient Requirements of Domestic Animals)_, National Academies Press, ISBN 978-0309086288, 2006 (The "bible" -- though probably only appropriate if you love reading scientific journals)

Avoid like the plague, as, in my opinion, they are basically AAFCO "propaganda" to justify why the industry doesn't follow the NRC recommendations:

Case, et. al., _Canine and Feline Nutrition: A Resource for Companion Animal Professionals _

Hand, et. al, _Small Animal Clinical Nutrition _


----------



## murieics (May 10, 2009)

I didn't read through all of Jeff's post, but had a few questions and ideas for you after reading yours.

First, has Zero been spayed? If so, how old was she when she was spayed? I know another member on this board (ChocolateMillie), has had issues with incontinence that she is pretty sure is due to Millie being spayed early. This might be something worth checking into. 

As far as the eye gunk and ear issues- this sounds like a food allergy to me. Possibly from corn (and probably also wheat) in the food that you are currently feeding her. There seems to be a general consensus that wheat and corn (especially with dogs that have allergies) can cause excess eye issues- gunk, tear staining, etc. I noticed when Jake first came home that his eyes were starting to get stains around them. They watered a lot and were a little gunky. He had been on Solid Gold Hundenflocken (the puppy variety) which has grains in it. Within a few weeks after switching him to a food without grains, I found that he stopped having the eye issues.


Same thing with the ear issues. I have a (different) dog that has severe food allergies- when he eats stuff that he is allergic to (he seems to have both poultry and grain allergies), he gets immediate ear infections. We have him on a limited ingredient diet (he's on Natural Balance Fish and Sweet Potato- which arguably isn't the best quality food out there, but is one of the few we've found that he does good on), and that has cleared his ear infections up- he went from having back-to-back infections as a puppy to having no ear infections for the past three years. 

Depending on what your vet says when you ask them about these issues, I would also potentially suggest getting an opinion from another vet.


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Another vote for Natural Balance LID (limited ingredient diet). We have a BT that has digestive issues, and once we switched to Natural Balance Potato and Duck (a grainless food), he's back to normal and gaining weight. It's only got 21% protein. It doesn't rate as highly as some foods (we feed our other two dogs Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream), but you need to feed what your dog does best on.


----------



## Leo (Dec 11, 2010)

Natural Balance Potato and Duck is what I had to start giving my Weim when she had all the issues you listed above... 
This is going to sound like on of those duh moments... Does your baby lick their paws a lot as well????
It could be food allergies... ask your vet to take a BLOOD allergy test and see what she pings on... Gala was allergic to chicken beef peas lamb rice wheat .... and the list went on... about a month after getting on Natural Balance LID (duck and potato, sweet potato and fish, or bison) she was 100%


----------



## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

Thanks for the advice so far. Here is what I learned today- she now has struvite crystals AS WELL AS oxalate, not a lot and they are small - but they are there and they haven't ever been before - and she has had her urine tested at least 10 times since I got her last November(09). She has increased white blood cells in her urine AND her PH is back up to 8. It has been anywhere from 5.4 to 9. Her eyes seem better and her ears too - so that could have been environmental allergies since they cleared up after it snowed. The vet is thinking (hoping) the high PH is from the infection so we will address the nutrition at her next visit after the course of antibiotics. I think I will check out the Acana and mix it with her current food. I love this vet - he actually raises poodles and his wife is a trainer. He does push that her piddling is mostly behavioral, but then is sheepish when the results come back and I am always right about infection - Zero is definitely submissive, but she squats submissively. She only piddles when she has an infection - or REALLY has to go. 
And as for the spaying - yes she is spayed - she was about 7 months old when we had her spayed in an effort to actually help with the infections - she had already had several by then. There are actually 5 vets at the office and they all recommended that I spay her. They were very adamant that I not breed her and pass on her submissiveness. I agreed. She had an infection when I got her at 3 months, but I didn't know it for awhile. I chose her because she seemed calm and she was SO cuddly. Turns out she was sick and was bullied by her 9 littermates. 
I ADORE her - she is my empty nest baby - and I am terrified that this is something that is going to significantly shorten her life. I HATE the piddling - I can't groom her or brush or clean her ears unless we go outside because she piddles most of the time. After she is done with the antibiotics I will have about 2 weeks that I can brush and clean her in the house.  So thanks again and any other advice is welcome.


----------



## Mumzilla (Aug 4, 2010)

I will check out the Natural Balance as well - THANK YOU - I think the blood test is a good idea too. I took a long time with my post so i missed the 2 posts before it - good info thanks


----------



## jeffsf (Dec 6, 2010)

I'm hoping that dietary changes help on many fronts. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the piddling is just due to the discomfort of the infections, possibly something she's been living with constantly at a low level.

Having both struvite and oxalate crystals isn't an "OMG" condition -- Buzz, the c-a-t that thinks he's a Poodle came to us with that diagnosis (and on "Rx" food) and now eats "normal" food here all the time, with no evidence of FLUTD. The one thing to remember is that the recommended dietary changes for struvite and for calcite are just about opposites. At least from what I have read, the evidence that struvite can be managed in dogs through diet is probably more due to the antibiotics to manage the infection than the diet itself. 

Don't panic, that really makes things easier for you -- just feed good food and lots of water.


----------

