# facial paralysis!!



## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Not liking this one little bit.

Liberty had an eye infection earlier this month. Then she started drooling occasionally, once with chewed up food in it. I've seen it 3 times this week. . . no behavior differences, appetite is normal, elimination is normal, but her eye infection seemed to come back so I started the drops again. I also noticed her using that 3rd eyelid a lot. 

So I took her back to the vet today because drooling is NOT normal. She's NEVER drooled in her life, and the red eye, and something just wasn't right. Well, after checking her teeth (normal), and taking a blood draw to check her electrolytes because of the Addison's, (all was normal), he gave her a treat. 

We were sitting in the room for 1/2 an hour waiting for blood test results, and I opened her mouth to look at her teeth again and noticed that there was food still in there, in the back, on the right hand side, the same side she was drooling from. I mentioned it to him, and he began to look for facial paralysis. Sure enough, when he tapped by her eye, she blinked on the left side, but not on the right. In looking more closely, her skin by her mouth looks just a little more droopy, especially when she pants. 

That's why her eye has been red, why she's so good about getting the eye drops. For one thing, she can't blink, and for another, they probably felt good! And now that I think about it, I haven't gotten a picture of her smiling in the past month, though I know she's been happy. How could I possibly not notice for almost a month that she hadn't been able to blink that eye? We look into each others eyes so frequently!

She is such a chow hound. I didn't notice that she wasn't swallowing all of her food right away either. She wasn't eating any slower, and is still licking out her bown. . . she just still had some in her mouth. I feel horrible about not noticing sooner.

She definitely still has sight in that eye, and her cornea hasn't been affected. . no ulcers or anything. 

He sent some of the blood to an outside lab for a thyroid test as that can sometimes cause it. It makes sense, as often Addison dogs will end up with hypothyroidism too. . . I guess the immune system attacks one gland, and then the other. I actually hope that's it, as it would mean that she might get the use of half of her face again with thyroid treatment. 

He doesn't think it's a tumor because her behavior is so normal. I pray it's not.

She turns 7 in March, and I know I'm blessed to even have her this long with Addison's. I absolutely hate to see her not well. She's such a good girl. . . 

I find out tomorrow about the hypothyroidism. 
Any prayers and positive thoughts would be much appreciated.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Oh no!  I'm so sorry Libby is having to go through this, she is such a good girl! I really hope it's nothing serious, positive thoughts going your way!


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Hoping for the best for your pretty girl! 

Don't guilt trip yourself... you're definitely a good owner and mom!


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

I will be thinking good thoughts for you and Liberty. Unfortunately we don't always notice things going on until thee is something really obvious. Hope the tests give you some idea of what is going on.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I hope it resolves quickly - and it sounds the sort of thing it would be easy to miss, especially if she already had an infection. Could it be a canine version of Bell's Palsy? I know that is usually self limiting.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

So sorry to hear about Liberty's paralysis, and I hope your vet can get it resolved quickly!!


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

I'm so sorry. I hope everything will be okay.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Many positive thoughts for you today!


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## CelticKitti (Jul 1, 2010)

Oh flufflvr, I'm so sorry to hear about Liberty. I hope the vet figures out something quickly. We're sending lots of good thoughts and poodle kisses your way.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks so much for all of your positive thoughts. 




fjm said:


> Could it be a canine version of Bell's Palsy? I know that is usually self limiting.


Yes, it could be. My brother had an episode with Bell's Palsy a few years ago, so that's where my mind went first too.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I hope with all my heart Liberty's facial movement problem can be quickly resolved. You are a MAGNIFICENT poodle mom; none of us is clairvoyant and dogs are so stoic and unfortunately cannot tell us how they're feeling. You give her a good life filled with love and concern _every_ minute, that's the best medicine anyone could prescribe. Can't wait to hear an update on her, you and she are in my thoughts. I am so hoping for the best!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Definately prayers being said for a full and speedy recovery for Liberty. Poor girl!


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Don't mean to scare you, but was there any mention of *MMM, or Masticatory muscle myositis? * The eye issue, drooling, and food left in the mouth (muscle in jaw related) have left me with an uneasy feeling. If this is the case, it can be managed.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Fingers crossed for a speedy and easy resolution. Poor Libby, and poor you! So stressful when our dogs are sick.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear that. I was thinking maybe Bell's palsy too. But of course, I don't know if dogs have that just like humans. 

Healing vibes from me and Nickel~

Get well soon, Liberty!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

There is no worse guilt than the kind you beat yourself up with when you think you've neglected your animals .... don't do it! 

Here's hoping Liberty gets better soon.


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## SpooWishes (Dec 7, 2010)

so sorry your poodle is not well. It sounds so much like bells palsy, but I don't even know if that kind of thing can be transmitted to a dog. I googled around and found some things about middle ear infections affecting facial nerves and also something about something called Horner's. For you poodles sake, I hope this fades quickly, and does not return!!!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Don't beat yourself up for missing the subtle symptoms as Chagall's mom says dogs are stoic and hindsight is 20/20. I hope it will turn out to be nothing serious.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh no, poor Liberty!!! For her sake, i really do hope the test comes back positive and its an "easy" fix! Does she have any pain when you open her mouth wide, or when she yawns (has she been yawning for the past month too?)? Hugs for you and her!! I understand about missing the signs and feeling horrible (i did this with some of Rys addisons signs)! Dont beat yourself up! You are the best poodle mommy! HUGS!!


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## poodleschnoo (Sep 26, 2010)

Sending you and Liberty good thoughts for a quick resolution and speedy recovery. Keep us informed.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I also just saw this and I am thinking many positive thoughts for you. Please don't beat yourself up about not noticing sooner--you DID notice and sometimes it is so hard to know when something is wrong with our dogs. If only they could just talk to us...


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## Sutton Bend (Jul 28, 2010)

Healthy, healing thoughts coming from me as well! Speedy recovery Liberty.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Thanks everybody. I sooo appreciate the well wishes. I got word from the vet, and her thyroid test came back a 1. Normal is 1-4, and there is some overlap, so is inconclusive. So he's testing a different test, the T-4 I believe. It's more expensive so they usually do the other first, because if it's definite, then they don't need to do the expensive one. Anyway, I'll find out this afternoon/evening the results of that one, and if not tonight then tomorrow morning. Seems kind of strange to want her to have hypothyroid, but I do because it's so easily managed, and she'll get her facial nerve back.

Thanks again for caring. It's really good to be able to come to a place where people love their poodles as much as I do. . . where people get it.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

spoowhisperer said:


> Don't mean to scare you, but was there any mention of *MMM, or Masticatory muscle myositis? * The eye issue, drooling, and food left in the mouth (muscle in jaw related) have left me with an uneasy feeling. If this is the case, it can be managed.


Thank you so much spoowhisperer for brainstorming with me. I can use all of the help and ideas I can get. 
Yes. The vet did mention MMM yesterday and checked for the symptoms. It didn't fit thank heavens. She doesn't have any swelling, as a matter of fact, her face looks quite normal. I'll post a picture so you can see. She also has no fever or pain. At least I don't think she has any pain with opening her mouth. She sure wants to eat like normal, and opens her mouth to play bitey-face with Cosita and pant. Her eyes also aren't bulging thank heavens. He also doesn't think she's been salivating any more than normal, because she's not drooling all the time. She just can't hold it in her mouth.  I've seen the drool when we're exercising, and right after eating, which are normal times to produce more saliva. Her third eyelid is being used, but he said that it's regulated by a different nerve, so isn't affected, and she'll use it more now that the regular one isn't working. Also, her head muscles haven't shrunk, which is typical of MMM. So we're thinking it's not that. 

It's more like this:
PROVET HEALTHCARE INFORMATION - Facial Paralysis

She definitely does not have an ear infection, though sometimes that causes it. I'm crossing my fingers for hypothyroid right now.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Praying for something that can be first cured and if not, at least, something that can be easily treated and managed. Praying for you, too! So hard when something is wrong with our family members.


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## pap2labc (Jun 25, 2010)

*TBD maybe?*

One of my border kids developed a limp and facial paralysis. They were going to do an MRI but at the last minute my friend talked her vets into testing for tick bourne diseases. They pulled blood for the tests and started him on doxycycline before getting the results back. He had Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever and has made a full recovery. It was an interesting few months as they did the full course of doxy. Just a thought! She never saw a tick, either.


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

O'k. good to hear its not MMM. I was ready to hook you up with someone who has delt with it in their spoo if that was a possiblitly. Will be watching this thread to see what happens, take a deep breath and don't think the worst. Your a good dog mom...


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Does she have any pain when you open her mouth wide, or when she yawns (has she been yawning for the past month too?)?


Yes, her yawning seems normal, at least I haven't noticed anything strange with that. I'm watching more carefully now though, so I'll be able to better answer that question in a day or two. She also plays bitey face and carries around big toys in her mouth that require her to open her mouth pretty wide. 

Thanks so much everybody for your concern for my girl.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

So today I walked in the door, half freaked out and worried about her, and she greeted me with a stuffed toy in her mouth, dancing around the kitchen and running through the house, tail wagging furiously, happy that I was home. She looked at me and my worried face, dropped her toy in my lap and woofed at me. It was like she was telling me to chill out, that she just isn't bothered by all of this, and I shouldn't be either. 

She's still playful, and funny, and loving, and silly, and just so Liberty! So I decided this afternoon that if it really isn't bothering her and she's not in pain at all, then why should I let it bother me so deeply? I'm just wasting valuable happy moments with her. As long as this doesn't get any worse, if I can keep her eye moist and a rag in my pocket for the occasional drool, we'll be just fine. Of course I'm still hoping for hypothyroid, but I think we'll be OK if it isn't. Took me a day to get there, but better late than never, huh?

Seriously, some of the most valuable lessons in life I've learned from my dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It does sound like the canine equivalent of Bell's palsy (ie facial paralysis with no obvious cause) - wonder if it could be connected to her eye infection? The vast majority of BP cases clear up by themselves, so let's hope Liberty is better soon. 

And you are right - seize the day, and all the joy it brings!


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

Dear Flufflvr,

You mention being glad to have had Libby "this long with Addison's...". Have you ever heard about the K9Addison's list on Yahoo? www.k9addisons.com/subscribe.html They can help you learn to manage Libby's meds so that she feels absolutely the best that she can feel. Dogs with well managed AD normally live long and healthy lives and die at an old age of something completely unrelated to Addison's. 

Also, it is common enough for Addison's patients to have low thyroid that it has a name -- Schmidt's syndrome. 

Have you considered registering Libby's Addison's with the Poodle Health Registry? It's so valuable for other owners and breeders of Libby's relatives to have this information..... It would be your and Libby's gift to Poodle health. www.poodlehealthregistry.org

Nancy

ps.... Best wishes for Libby's speedy recovery!!


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Yes! I've been a member of that group for 6 years, since before Liberty was diagnosed. They're fabulous. . . amazingly helpful. They got me through those initial few months, and I've referred many others to that group. Her Addison's has been very well managed ever since diagnosis. She hasn't had a crash since onset and has no symptoms. Her lytes are fabulous, the ratio is right in the low 30's where it should be, as of 3 days ago. 

I also know about Schmidts Syndrome, that's why I said hypothyroid was so common in AD dogs, why we're testing for it. I'm just waiting for the results to come back. I've also sent in her information to PHR, as well as a DNA cheek swab to a research project in CA several years ago. She's not AKC registered though, but her parents both are, so I sent in their pedigrees. 

My concern with her Addison's isn't that she'll crash because of Addison's. It's that if she develops an additional health problem such as cancer, or pnuemonia, or bloat, or lyme disease, or any of the other reasons animals die, or is injured, there's a high possibility that it'll stress out her body to the point where the DOCP and prednisone, including the very rare extra she gets when stressed wouldn't cover the mineralocorticoids and glucocorticoids that the body would normally make to get her through it. 

So when her face became paralyzed, I think of the Addison's because if there's a serious underlying cause, it puts her body under stress, then the Addison's kicks in and she could crash. Her dam died of bloat, and who knows what else she's susceptible to. 

So yes, I do feel lucky to have lived with her this long with Addisons.


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

Flufflvr,
You're obviously waaayyyyy ahead of me!! That's fantastic! 
N


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Several years ago I have the same problem with my boy, turned out it was caused by using Frontline. Almost killed him, caused depression, facial paralysis, loss of appatite. 



Will keep her in our prayers.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

No worries A'n'A Mom. If I hadn't known about the AD site, I'd sure be grateful for the reference, because they've been lifesavers, and without them, she wouldn't be even close to as well managed as she is. I was spending at least 8 hours a day on there in the beginning, learning everything I possibly could, mainly because I didn't trust my vet and had to become a better advocate for Liberty. As a matter of fact, it was because of that site that I demanded a DOCP test, even when my vet didn't want to do it. A few vets later, I finally found one whose treatment protocol matched what I had learned on that group. I still check back there every once in a while when I've got a question. They're the ones who informed me of the PHR, and the research study, too. So seriously, thank you for offering the suggestion. It's such a good one, and the more people know, the better, especially when they're just trying to help their baby feel better.


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Poor Liberty! Thank you for posting how you found her paralysis. I never would have thought to look for that. It sounds like she is in good spirits. I'll pray that you find a solution soon for a quick recovery.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> Several years ago I have the same problem with my boy, turned out it was caused by using Frontline. Almost killed him, caused depression, facial paralysis, loss of appatite.
> 
> 
> 
> Will keep her in our prayers.


Wow Stargazer, that's horrible! Fortunately Liberty's only symptom is the paralysis, thank heavens. How in the world did they find out it was the Frontline that caused it? I'm glad he recovered. Sounds like a nightmare.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

It's not thyroid. Her T-4 looked completely normal. I could cry.


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## Sutton Bend (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm sorry. :hug: Please hang in there, I'm sure they will come up with both a cause and a solution. Think of it as one cause eliminated... on to the real cause. I know it was the answer you wanted though...


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Any new thoughts or avenues to take? How is your Liberty now, any different? 
And how are you, I know you are watching her like a hawk, and that can get exhausting with the mental stress. Hope your feeling good about your vet and the plan for the diagnoses. 
Thinking of you...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm just checking in too to see how Liberty is doing. Any improvement? Is she still her silly, happy go lucky self? I hope so, because if she is, you can be too! Got you on my mind. Wishing you and your girl well.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Chiming in with good wishes - and hoping things are no worse.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

flufflver, I am so sorry about Liberty. I hope you and your vet are able to find out the cause and hoping that it is an easily manageable one. This has to be a hard time right now for you, not knowing what is going on. I am praying for her recovery. Sending you best wishes and good vibes!


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Her T-4 came out in the normal range. Normal is 1-40, and hers was a 16, so normal, but in the lower 1/3. Since we don't have a baseline, there's nothing to compare it to, so we don't know if she's had a sudden drop or anything.

We know it's not a stroke, a tumor, or anything originating from the brain, because there are no other mentation or coordination differences. If is was a stroke or tumor, it would affect more than just that one facial nerve. That's a good thing. 

So. . . they're just calling it idiopathic, which is a big word that means it's of an unknown cause. 

Side effects? Eye care. Since she can't close that eye, or blink, she's more susceptible to eye infections and scratches and stuff like that, and sometimes, it stops producing tears. So right now I'm putting in artifical tears and that's keeping it from looking red. Hopefully she won't stop producing tears. 

Also, if it doesn't get better, it's highly possible that the unused muscles will constrict and pull her face back on that side. This breaks my heart. . . I'm trying not to think too much about it unless it really happens, but will she drool constantly? Will she look scary to people she visits, like will her teeth show on that side? I don't know. If so, then I think we'll probably go visit a facility where people are dealing with their own disfigurements, such as people who've had strokes, or who are recovering from burns or something like that. I think her happy-go-lucky, loving attitude could be inspiring. We'll see. Also, if she doesn't drool, but her muscles constrict, I'll probably go to a fuzzy face trim so it's less noticable. We'll see. Won't be doing that if there's a lot of drool though. Yuck. 

Our plan? Give it another month to see if it heals on its own, like Bells Palsy. She's already had it at least a month. If it does, celebrate! If it doesn't, I'm going to try her on thyroid for a few months, just to see if it helps, if possibly it was caused by a sudden decrease in thyroid, since it won't hurt her. If it doesn't help, I'll take her off of it of course. 

Meanwhile, she's happy, and playful, and loving, and still running around, trying to steal things off of the countertops, and eating well, and just being an all over happy girl. Really, it's me freaking out, not her. I'm working on remembering that she really is OK with it, and I should just chill. Hmph. Easier said than done.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Good to know that Liberty is acting as if nothing is wrong. It's important to see that she's a happy and playful and eating well, right? But sorry to hear that you and your vet haven't found out the cause yet. 

It's difficult for you to just chill. We all can imagine how it feels like. But don't forget you have us here. Make a post and let us know whenever you need to talk and we are here to listen.

Healing vibes from me and Nickel.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Fingers and paws crossed it sorts itself out, and lots of hugs to you for coping so well (and to Liberty for being her sweet and happy self).


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## Sutton Bend (Jul 28, 2010)

:hug: Follow Libby's lead, if you can. Take it as it comes. I am glad she is happy, and carefree. Thoughts and wishes for good health...and hugs!


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## apoodleaday (Feb 22, 2010)

I can attest to the fact that you are doing everything possible for your sweet girl. You are her best advocate and you provide everything she could possibly need. 
The paralysis isn't even visible and she is still her sweet, happy self.
I know you are seriously troubled by these turn of events, but do your best to focus on her and the way she is feeling right now.
You are a vigilant spoo mom and Liberty lives a better life because of you. Healing thoughts for both of you my friend!


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

Hopefully Liberty's problem willnot be long term and at least find the right medication that will help. Good to see that she is eating, running around and just being herself. We are all praying for her and your family. Lots of hugs! Sylvia, Sadie and Lacey


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Lots of Hugs for you and Libs!!!


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

new update: I couldn't bring myself to write about it till today. Liberty and Cosita got in a fight yesterday. I don't know how it happened, because I was in school, but when I got home, Cosita had blood all over her fluffy whiteness, and liberty had blood on her face. I bathed Cosita to see where it was really coming from, and she has a sore above her eye and on her leg. She has other sore spots, not bleeding, and I figure she's bruised and she's definitely sore, but will be OK. She ate dinner last night, and is spending time in the lampshade. Liberty has a small wound above her lip. 

Never have either one of them fought so that they drew blood before, or have ever even bitten each other, and it's just soooo out of character for Liberty to do that. 

Then when brushing Liberty out, I tried the righting reflex test, where you turn their foot upside-down in your hand. They should right the foot right away. If not, there's some kind of nervous system damage. Her right hind foot had no righting reflex, the same side as the facial paralysis. 

The vet ruled out tumor or stroke because there were no differences in behavior or coordination. Now I'm definitely not so sure.

It's possible that they went out the dog door and met up with something out in the yard, but I doubt it, because there were signs of a struggle by the front door. Cosita can be really bossy, and it's possible she just pushed her too far, especially since Liberty wasn't feeling good. I could just hypothesize all night, but it wouldn't matter. I'll never know for sure. The weird thing is that Liberty seemed so worried about Cosita the whole time I was cleaning her up, and Cosita didn't seem afraid of Liberty at all. They've been in the same room I'm in ever since, and were even sharing the bed, laying pretty close to each other. Today I took them for a walk, and they acted completely normal with each other. I just don't get it. I crated Liberty today while I was gone, and I'll keep crating her. I just hate to leave her in that crate for so long, but until I have some inkling of what's going on, I don't have a choice. 

I talked with my vet, and he said that with the strange behavior, and the nerve damage to the back leg, it sounds like either a stroke or a tumor. The only way to really know for sure about what's going on in the head is to do an MRI. To do that, we have to go up to the University, to the human MRI machine, and then send the results out. It costs around $1500 at least. He says that the way they usually diagnose a tumor is by noting increasing symptoms, but he's willing to send her up there if I want to. If it's a stroke, it can cause the same symptoms. Sometimes with a stroke though they'll make a full recovery within a few months, but sometimes they live for years with the current symptoms, and other times they continue to have strokes.

Either way, if I do the MRI or just watch her, the result will be the same. I _won't_ subject her to treatment for cancer, I just can't do it to her, especially since she has Addison's already. I told Dr. Bagley today that if symptoms progress, whether it's stroke or a tumor, I would rather let her go sooner than later, and spare her the pain of being sick, and spare me the pain of watching her suffer. If doing the MRI would return her to full health, I'd do it in a heartbeat, but I don't think it really makes a difference either way. 

So now I'm hoping it was a stroke and she'll make a full recovery. That and giving them both lots of loves and snuggles, as I feel horrible for both of them.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

I know that your love and concern will guide you to make the best decisions possible for Liberty! The focus of life is what's important now! Sending healing prayers your way!


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

Oh Heavens! I hope everything will get better soon. Our prayers and hugs are with you all.


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## Sutton Bend (Jul 28, 2010)

Flufflvr I am so, so sorry to hear this. 

My prayers are with you, Liberty, and Cosita. Is it possible she was having an episode and Cosita was concerned and got close enough to get hurt? I know it doesn't help to speculate, but I think she'd be scared of Liberty if it was intentional. 

I hope you find some peace tonight, and answers very soon.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I am so sorry about everything that happened. I hope everything will get better. Are you going to consult another vet?


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

So sorry for this tough time, and the tough decisions you have to make.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so very sorry to hear this. I have known dogs make excellent recoveries from strokes. You, Liberty and Cosita are in our thoughts.


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

Thank you all so much for the concern for my girl.



schnauzerpoodle said:


> I am so sorry about everything that happened. I hope everything will get better. Are you going to consult another vet?


Good question. I've met with two vets so far and spent hours researching online. I trust them, especially Dr. Bagley. He's very up-to-date on stuff. Here's a recent article on a stem-cell surgery he's doing. Not that this has anything to do with Liberty, except it shows he's up to date. 
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/50299649-76/stem-animal-cells-procedure.html.csp
http://www.medivet-america.com/media-video-bnetarticle.html

He's my third vet, after being dissatisfied with 2 others, and he came very highly reccommended. When I first met him I didn't even bring my dogs. I brought a list of about 20 questions, and I drilled him on them. He answered them all right, and I've been seeing him ever since. I wish I could say that I think he's wrong, that I want to see another Dr. but everything he and Dr. Anderson says rings true. Unfortunately, her symptoms fit right in with a stroke or brain tumor, according to everything I've found online. 

I so wish I had been here the other day. I haven't noticed anything strange behavior-wise when I'm home. She still seems happy, silly, and sweet. I'm just going to keep watching.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh Stacy!!! HUGS!!!! Im so sorry to hear everything that is going on! One quick question. For the reflex test, did you turn her foot over in your hand, or did you place it "upsidedown" on the floor? To really test it, you need to have the dog stand on the food turned to see if they will right themselves. Have you noticed her dragging her toes at all, or is she walking normally? Usually if their reflexes are bad, they will drag their foot/toes. 

As for the girls fighting, i hate to say it, but perhaps Costia started it. It is not uncommon at all (esp. between 2 girls) for a dog to pick on the sick one. Perhaps either costia could tell Libs was "hurt/night right", and she took advantage and then Libs did not back down?? Or, with libs facial paralysis costia "misread" a body language signal? 
I would not leave them alone together Anymore though! Once 2 females start to fight, it will happen again. Could be weeks or months between, and usually they are best of friends in the meantime. Could you rotate having one in a bedroom while you are away instead of a crate? 

I understand about your decision about the MRI. If it doesnt change treatment options, then why spend the money. Please keep us updated!!! HUGS!!!!!!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Have you ruled out Valley Fever? They are seeing it in Utah.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

So sorry to hear about this turn of events. Finnegan and I are sending good thoughts your way.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Sometimes it's hard to fathom how one heart can hold so many worries! Your devotion to your spoos is at this point legendary, and I know you get the best out of the vet you deal with. You simply wouldn't settle for less! Whatever turns out to be the case with Liberty, I know you'll do the best for her always. As for the girls fighting in your absence, everyone's offered good points to think about. I would just add that I think it will be easier on all if they are only together when supervised. Just my two cents, but I wish you well with my whole heart. One of life's great sadnesses is that our dogs' temporary lives are so much more temporary than our own. I wish some Einstein would come along and change that! In the meantime, enjoy every moment you have with your terrific poodles, as I know you will.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear about the recent events Stacy!  Really hoping Liberty makes a full recovery! That really is strange, she's SO friendly, and Costita was mega friendly too when I met her. Keep us updated!


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## apoodleaday (Feb 22, 2010)

I know that you're doing all that you can! 
Big poodle hugs from Lacey and me!


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Just now seeing this for the first time. I hope it turns out to be something manageable at least, if not completely curable. 

Sending healing thoughts your way!


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Have you ruled out Valley Fever? They are seeing it in Utah.


Interesting. . . I've never even heard of it! I looked it up and it doesn't seem to fit. She hasn't had a fever, still has a great appetite, hasn't coughed at all, or acted lethargic in the least. It does affect the brain, but only after the previous symptoms. 

I soooo appreciate the ideas though. It helps to know there are tons of people reading this and they might have heard of something I haven't. A bunch of great minds are much better than one frazzled one. :beat-up:


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## flufflvr (Mar 20, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> For the reflex test, did you turn her foot over in your hand, or did you place it "upsidedown" on the floor? To really test it, you need to have the dog stand on the foot turned to see if they will right themselves. Have you noticed her dragging her toes at all, or is she walking normally? Usually if their reflexes are bad, they will drag their foot/toes.


 I can't remember what I did, whether it was in my hand or the floor. I just know that that leg was kind of shaky while she was standing on it. Then when I flipped it over, she didn't right it at all. Tonight I repeated it just to see, and this time I did it right for sure. (thanks for the tips by the way) and it took her 8 seconds to right it. The other feet she righted immediately. She hasn't dragged her toes at all, and she seems to be walking normally, though her stance seems a little more wide than normal. 



bigpoodleperson said:


> As for the girls fighting, i hate to say it, but perhaps Cosita started it. It is not uncommon at all (esp. between 2 girls) for a dog to pick on the sick one. Perhaps either costia could tell Libs was "hurt/night right", and she took advantage and then Libs did not back down?? Or, with libs facial paralysis costia "misread" a body language signal?
> I would not leave them alone together Anymore though! Once 2 females start to fight, it will happen again. Could be weeks or months between, and usually they are best of friends in the meantime. Could you rotate having one in a bedroom while you are away instead of a crate?


Highly, highly possible. Cosita won't even let Liberty cough in the house. If Libby starts coughing, Cosita starts barking and growling, and herds her outside unless I intervene. I think she's thinking that she'll throw up or something in the house. I'm not sure. If she had a seizure, I can just imagine Cosita barking at her like crazy, and if she was just coming out of it, it's highly possible that she was scared to death and lashed out. 

I can also imagine Cosita misreading a signal, as Liberty can't move that side of her face. I hadn't even thought of that, but it makes A LOT of sense, and Cosita's so bossy and alpha that it's easy for me to imagine her starting it, much more so than Liberty. I just wish I had been there but there is no way I can bring her with me, or stay home with them, so I'll just have to keep them separated, which is a bummer, because they both want to be with each other. :sarcastic:


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