# Paying thousands for a puppy



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Someone in my book club asked about my new puppy and wanted to know how much I paid for him. When I told her how much he cost, she said, "Oh, I could never pay that much for a dog!" So a purebred poodle (of good quality) was out of the picture for her.

I know some designer dogs are going for thousands, so some people will pay that much for a dog, and I am used to paying $1000-$2500 for my Portuguese Water Dogs and now my miniature poodle. We have no children and can afford to pay this.

However, your average family not only cannot afford this but would also be embarrassed to admit to paying this much just for a dog.

We wonder sometimes, why don't people support breeders who do health testing? Why don't people buy purebreds instead of a designer dog (assuming they can find one that cost less than a poodle)? Cost is probably the biggest factor.

I understand the cost of breeding and that is why I pay the price for the dog I want, but many people just can't understand paying thousands for a puppy and they think we have our priorities wrong to pay out that much. It is too bad the cost of good breeding is so high that it eliminates a lot of families from having a purebred dog (poodle or otherwise).

I know there is nothing to be done about the cost of breeding a good poodle. It just makes me sad that the cost is prohibitive to a lot of families.


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## Pella (Oct 7, 2014)

I've thought about this a lot too. I do find it sad. At the same time, I think when you do get a Poodle or other breed of puppy for cheaper you so often spend MORE than the expensive puppy would have cost in vet bills! And I've seen a lot of people make it through that, somehow. Because they had to figure it out. 

I feel like it boils down to the psychology of it. We have expectations of getting "good" dogs for only so much money...and certainly my rescue dog who cost $100 means just as much to me as my AKC registered far more expensive Poodle puppy. But there certainly have been costs around socialization, training, and vet bills that I was too naive to anticipate when I adopted him. To me, now the "expensive" puppy is the cheapest way to go! Just wish there was a better way to educate people about that...


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## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

Honestly, I've found that the purchase price for my poodles (in the range of $1,500 each) has been small compared to the cost of owning them. By the time you pay for regular vet visits and regular grooming (either for equipment if you do it yourself or a professional groomer), the annual costs of owning any dog and providing proper care add up to much more than the purchase price. I always question, if you can't afford the initial purchase price, how can you afford to maintain your dog? How will you handle any unexpected expenses?

Also, I've noted that someone here in Alberta is charging $3,200 for a "bernedoodle," and $5,000 for a bernedoodle with "breeding rights" (there's restrictions on whether you can breed a mutt?). Makes $1,500 for a well-bred poodle seem pretty reasonable, in my opinion.


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

yeah when I was young we got a mutt from a irresponsible/oops litter who was free to a good home because we couldnt afford a purebred. He got some type of hepatitis shortly after we got him and ended costing a lot in vet bills. 

There is no such thing as a free/cheap animal.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Well bred purebred dogs can have expensive health issues. Genetic testing and chosing healthy parents gives you a good shot at a healthy dog, but 2 of my Portuguese Water Dogs from different good breeders had Addison Disease. One of them was a severe case that cost me thousands of dollars a year. 

It would be nice if paying for a well bred dog guaranteed no expensive health problems in the future, but we wouldn't be talking about pet insurance if that were true.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> Well bred purebred dogs can have expensive health issues. Genetic testing and chosing healthy parents gives you a good shot at a healthy dog, but 2 of my Portuguese Water Dogs from different good breeders had Addison Disease. One of them was a severe case that cost me thousands of dollars a year.
> 
> It would be nice if paying for a well bred dog guaranteed no expensive health problems in the future, but we wouldn't be talking about pet insurance if that were true.



Yes, but if you are able to come up with the cost of those vet bills, or the cost of health insurance, then you should be able to come up with the cost of a well bred puppy if for nothing more than being matched with a puppy that suits your lifestyle and most assuredly will bring you years of joy, and never become "too much to handle". 
Anybody who truly cannot come up with the price of a well bred dog, truly should not have a dog period, because that puppy, sooner or later will have a vet bill equal to or greater than a purchase price, and if you cannot afford that, it was wrong and selfish of you to get the dog in the first place. Fortunately I insured Timi on the day that she came home, but three weeks later she swallowed a piece of gum and within 24 hours had vet bills greater than what she cost!

You absolutely do not have to be wealthy to own a dog, but you do have to want one enough to be prepared to spend all of your discretionary money on them - skip the latest model phone, take the bus and save the car payments and insurance, think staycation, instead of vacation, and most anybody can afford a dog, mutt or well bred! 
Not going to feel the least bit sorry for them if they choose other things to spend their money on...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MiniPoo, I'm with you that paying up front for a well bred puppy is worth it. You know within some degree of certainty what you are getting in terms of temperament, grooming, trainability and potential health issues. I would never buy from a breeder that didn't health test and that didn't offer a guarantee against health issues that are congenital but not readily detectible at birth.

I respect good breeders who invest in their program and will happily pay what they ask, but don't understand at all how someone could spend $5000 for a mutt that has little known background.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

What about rescues? 

Tons of purebred or poodle mixes in rescue, typically for half (or less) the cost of a puppy. There is the added bonus of not having to deal with puppy nonsense as well, which is often overwhelming for families with kids.

It might take time for the right poodle to enter a rescue, but they if they want a poodle enough, they can wait, or use that time to save up for a puppy from a responsible breeder.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Locket said:


> What about rescues?
> 
> Tons of purebred or poodle mixes in rescue, typically for half (or less) the cost of a puppy. There is the added bonus of not having to deal with puppy nonsense as well, which is often overwhelming for families with kids.
> 
> It might take time for the right poodle to enter a rescue, but they if they want a poodle enough, they can wait, or use that time to save up for a puppy from a responsible breeder.



Oh, don't get me started on how difficult rescues make it for people o adopt - living in a high rise, without a fenced yard, I would not ever have a had a poodle. Thank goodness for the breeders who thought I was "good enough", or I would have missed out on 7 wonderful dogs....
Besides, I get a little queasy when people suggest that someone get a rescue if they cannot afford a puppy, because the odds are as high, or likely higher, that the dog will wind up costing them ten times the price of a puppy in vet bills etc.


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

rescues are great and I plan on doing that one day. I would like a mixture of breeder and rescue dogs. However I dont like that rescues are considered to be 'cheap alternative' they need just as much and sometimes more care in terms of vets, grooming ect. 

I dont have a dog because I can't afford one. I could get a free rehome (more common than organised rescues where im from). I could feed it alright, provide the basics but I wouldnt be able to do anything if it broke its leg. If I cant afford the price tag of a good breeder then I cant afford a rescue either.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Pups that are not well bred cost a lot too. I paid 1,200 for Zoe


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

My toy and mini definitely didn't come from reputable breeders. I paid 300 or so for both of them. The toy turned out ok, but the mini was riddled with health and behavioral issues. When I informed his breeder...she didn't really care. She was constantly buying and selling dogs, making all kinds of mixes, and her pups were having litters at 6 months old and she would be selling them off by 2. 

Ugh. 

I definitely went a different route with my standard and am happy I did.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

mom2Zoe said:


> Pups that are not well bred cost a lot too. I paid 1,200 for Zoe



Nothing aggravates me more than a Greeder who thinks that they can charge the same price as a health testing show breeder.
Especially the "teacup" and "rare color" breeders.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Nothing aggravates me more than a Greeder who thinks that they can charge the same price as a health testing show breeder.
> Especially the "teacup" and "rare color" breeders.


 Hope nobody thinks I was advocating going to a non reputable breeder. Everybody knows my story here, so I dint go into how Zoe was purchased.
I was just pointing out that pet stores and bad breeders sometimes charge a lot too, just without comforting feeling of being health tested.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i get it that it's a chunk of change up front to buy a well-bred dog, or, in some cases, a dog that one is not sure is all that well-bred. but do people ever ask themselves what they pay for cars? and cars depreciate about 50% if new as soon as you drive them off the lot. some cars won't last as long as your dog lives. they can be just as expensive, if not more expensive, to maintain. and they don't lie at the door and wait for you to come home or make you laugh because of their sly or nutty ways. for the money, you get more out of what you put into a dog than from what you put into a car. jmo.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

*Standard Poodle Dream*

We have a gorgeous Corgi that I co-own, the cost to finish his Championship was really high. We have owned 5 Beagles from a top breeder in Louisiana, gorgeous dogs, Westminster Champs, etc. But every one died of Cancer. The Corgi and the Beagles are right up there with the cost of a show quality poodle. A pet quality Corgi or Beagle from a reputable Breeder is about the same as what we paid for our Standard Poodle. When our last Beagle died last year, I knew it was time for me to finally get my Standard Poodle. Yes, she was pricey, but it was what I wanted. The cost of grooming, whether you do it your self or send to a groomer is the real killer. I always joke we will have to take money out of the kid's college accounts to take care of the dogs. I would love to have a top show standard poodle, but my family just can not stomach the idea of sending another dog on the show circuit. Plus the cost to show and groom one of these gorgeous dogs is really hard to swallow.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, don't get me started on how difficult rescues make it for people o adopt - living in a high rise, without a fenced yard, I would not ever have a had a poodle. Thank goodness for the breeders who thought I was "good enough", or I would have missed out on 7 wonderful dogs....
> Besides, I get a little queasy when people suggest that someone get a rescue if they cannot afford a puppy, because the odds are as high, or likely higher, that the dog will wind up costing them ten times the price of a puppy in vet bills etc.


Firstly, just like breeders, there are good and bad. Good rescues judge potential adopters on a case by case basis. 

Secondly, there are tons of posts on here about breeders turning families down, or just not even responding to emails or phone calls. Breeders and rescues are equally as guilty at making families jump through hoops.

Thirdly, how are the odds any different for a puppy vs. a rescue? Puppies are impulsive. They jump off things they should not (broken bones/joint damage), they eat things they should not (intestinal surgery), they are unpredictable. What about the cost of spay/neuter? What about gastropexy? Training classes? I fail to see how rescue dogs are more likely to cost 10 times as much as a puppy. No way, no how. 

Rescue dogs are not the cheaper alternative, but their initial "start-up" costs certainly are. By saving $500-1000 on the initial cost of the dog, you can put that money towards an emergency fund. 

I am not anti-breeder, my next dog will likely be from one. But I also think the whole "rescues will cost you so much more in the long run" is a bunch of crap. Health testing does not guarantee anything. It cannot guarantee that your dog won't have allergies, or get Addisons, or Epilepsy, or cancer. It cannot guarantee that your puppy won't slip out of its collar and get hit by a car. It cannot guarantee that your puppy won't be attacked by another dog. 

It is a crapshoot either way.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

You are absolutely correct.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

A greeder in a Facebook group I'm in. 3000? Really? I wanted to ask why. 

You could get a standard poodle of a very similar size, with the same color pattern and better pigment and probably healthier too for half of that price. 

A true moyen is great, but a lot of people are capitalizing on the flashy new term and selling them for more...19-21 inches and 30 lbs? You could get a regular ole standard poodle that would be maybe 1 inch taller and 5 pounds heavier. 

I think she also breeds her dogs to create doodles.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I don't agree that adopting a rescue dog automatically equals high vet bills. There is value in testing for known genetic diseases, but not everything can be predicted. My sis just lost her beloved lab from a great breeder at age 6 of lymphoma. Heartbreaking, and that was not in the dog's lines. Sh&$ happens.

I've never owned a well bred dog, and maybe I've been lucky, but only one of the seven dogs I've had (Max) has cost a lot of money at the vet. But even that amount is really not that much, and he's healthy now. I did spend several hundred dollars on a behaviorist for Lily, but I knew before adopting her she was going to need special attention, and she was worth every penny. So I went into that with my eyes wide open. The rest were/are healthy and great pets. 

I've also fostered roughly 35 rescues, and in general was more amazed at the resiliency of rescues than worried about their health problems. 

That said, my next dog will be from a good poodle breeder. I want to have that type of puppy once in my life. But as far as thinking that pup would have guaranteed good health for it's entire life- I think that's an unrealistic expectation.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Naira said:


> View attachment 260930
> 
> 
> A greeder in a Facebook group I'm in. 3000? Really? I wanted to ask why.
> ...


I live in central Illinois so am not too far from this breeder and at first I was looking for a moyen sized breeder. I did not consider this breeder for long. I cannot believe they charge this much. 

Even I have a limit on how much I would pay for a poodle no matter how good the breeder, which this one did not seem to be one to me.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I vowed when my Scottie died, to get a health tested dog from the best breeder I could find. I wanted to give myself any kind of an edge to have a dog that would live long and well. I spent a fortune on allergy treatments for poorly bred Scotties. I have a dear friend who has spent an even larger fortune rehabilitating to health, pure bred rescues, so I was not going that route. There are options, such as acquiring a retired breeding bitch from a good breeder but those are rare. For my big bucks Buck, at least I have a replacement guarantee, but as others have noted the ongoing expenses are much higher annually than the purchase price.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> I don't agree that adopting a rescue dog automatically equals high vet bills. There is value in testing for known genetic diseases, but not everything can be predicted. My sis just lost her beloved lab from a great breeder at age 6 of lymphoma. Heartbreaking, and that was not in the dog's lines. Sh&$ happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody said that a dog from a good breeder is guaranteed healthy, just that your odds are better. And no doubt that you could have great luck with a mutt or a rescue. It may be partially because of where I live, but honest to goodness I have never seen a small dog in the shelter that did not obviously need 3-10 thousands of dollars in immediate Vet care. Even if the dog would be so lucky to have a rescue pull them and do all of the immediate care, and then adopt them to me for $600, health insurance would not cover anything remotely related to anything pre-existing, and I do believe that the likelihood of issues re-occurring, or related to the past issues would be rather high :-( 
Anyhow, bottom line there is certainly AT LEAST equal chances that a rescue would have high health costs, and I think that it is a very bad idea for somebody to imagine that a rescue is a cheaper way to go than buying from a good breeder. If somebody is prepared to spend a significant amount on their dog, then rescue if you can find and get approved for a good match is fantastic! But so is finding a good match from a breeder, and caring for that dog, come what may "from cradle to grave"!


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## Sam I Am (Jul 6, 2008)

High price doesn't always mean high quality and everyone has their comfort levels for price. I personally wouldn't pay $2500 no matter what, others wouldn't blink an eye. Good breeders are out there for much less. My 2 standards came from great breeders that raised the pups how I preferred them to be raised and did all the testing. They also each have several champions in their pedigrees. I paid $700 for one and $800 for the other. Of course this was also 13 and 7 years ago. One is healthy as can be and the other passed way too soon. Now Jackson on the other hand was a little different, on paper everything seemed fine, health tested, good pedigree, but my gut told me something was off, but I didn't stand a chance he was just too cute, LOL!! He was 5 months old, possible red flag there, also the breeder seemed to have a few too many puppies at once. She had explanations for all my concerns and it really was a spur of the moment decision. I paid $600 for him and he's had a couple behavioral issues we work on, but he is worth it. He's my baby so I can't regret buying from someone I wasn't 100% comfortable with.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I have well bred working dogs and rescues. I haven't noticed a huge difference in vet care costs, really. 

I actually had some of my worst temperament issues from a well known and respected show breeder (not poodles) there was some pretty severe dog aggression issues in one line and that line was crossed with another with human aggression issues. I was not aware of any of that and she placed a pup with me from that cross knowing I had two toddlers at the time. Her justification? I used to have Dobermans, so I was used to aggressive. *sigh* 

I go with responsible breeders not just for health issues/prevention, because that is a crapshoot. I like knowing that I can call my (Kelpie) breeder in the middle of the night and ask a stupid doggie question and she's right there at the other end of the line willing to help. Shoot, she even helped me with a dog I got from someone else. 

The lifelong moral support is why I go to a respected breeder. Doesn't hurt that I now consider her one of my three dearest friends in the universe.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Price and health of the puppy we look for are just 2 factors. We set a limit on how much we each are willing to pay for a healthy dog. Then we probably are looking for a certain temperament. The breeder I chose placed a lot of emphasis on matching temperament along with health. I am willing to pay a good price for that.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I agree with "almost" all that has been said by all. BUT: I have _*infinite*_ respect for those who rescue poorly bred, poorly raised, dogs in poor health. There can be no greater love shown, for man's best friend from his stone age past. I salute you all. I could not afford the cash, time or commitment required. Too old for all that.
Eric.:angel2:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Naira said:


> View attachment 260930
> 
> 
> A greeder in a Facebook group I'm in. 3000? Really? I wanted to ask why.
> ...


That's a standard, not a moyen! So sad.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

I paid $1500 for cypher and consider it a bargain. My clients are constantly spending $3500 on doodles and " rare toy schnauzers"....


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

What exactly makes puppies so expensive down there in the States?

I paid 1300 EUR (~1500 USD) for my wormed, chipped, vaccinated, thoroughly handled, *gaaaasp* FCI registered, show-quality puppy of the size most popular in here, from parents tested (or otherwise cleared) for the four inherited ailments relevant to the local population, with a pedigree chock full of champions, with no restrictions considering altering, registering, or breeding him etc etc.

And Finland is supposed to be a _hideously expensive country_.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Peccan, it's sad but a lot of people depend on breeding to pay their bills. They don't care about the dogs. Come up with a new term or mix and you can charge more...such as the fake moyens in the US and doodles. 

One of the new ones are "Giberian Shepsky's". German Shepard and husky mixes


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## Coco86 (Oct 23, 2014)

We paid $175 for our toy poodle Dolly back in 1995. She was the runt of the litter, but lived to be 14.

Rosie cost $300 in 2009. (Toy Poodle)

Sunny was $250 in 2009. His father was a registered showdog. We got papers to register Sunny but never did since we aren't going to breed or show him. (Toy Poodle)

Sadie cost $150 adoption fee from the humane society in 2011. Original price was $300, but it was Memorial Day weekend and they lowered all the the adoption prices. (Cockapoo)

Sammy cost $375 in 2014. (Mini Poodle)

We bought Sammy in Oregon, but the other three, and Dolly, we got in our home state of Idaho. Sadie had been a transfer from a shelter in Salt Lake City.


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## Coco86 (Oct 23, 2014)

Naira said:


> Peccan, it's sad but a lot of people depend on breeding to pay their bills. They don't care about the dogs. Come up with a new term or mix and you can charge more...such as the fake moyens in the US and doodles.
> 
> One of the new ones are "Giberian Shepsky's". German Shepard and husky mixes


Sammy, our Mini, was born in California and his owner needed rent money so she asked her mom's friend in Washington to sell the puppies for her. Sammy had roundworm, Tapeworm, Coccidia, and an ear infection when we got him  We took him to the vet the day after purchase to have his ears checked, because they were dirty and smelled. Got him on antibiotics. Then I noticed the worms five days later.But we got him the medical attention he needed, and he's doing amazing now.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Naira said:


> Peccan, it's sad but a lot of people depend on breeding to pay their bills. They don't care about the dogs. Come up with a new term or mix and you can charge more...such as the fake moyens in the US and doodles.
> 
> One of the new ones are "*Giberian Shepsky's*". German Shepard and husky mixes



Jeepers Creepers that sounds awful! All that shedding! Plus who knows what else...


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Sam I Am said:


> High price doesn't always mean high quality and everyone has their comfort levels for price. I personally wouldn't pay $2500 no matter what, others wouldn't blink an eye. Good breeders are out there for much less. My 2 standards came from great breeders that raised the pups how I preferred them to be raised and did all the testing. They also each have several champions in their pedigrees. I paid $700 for one and $800 for the other. Of course this was also 13 and 7 years ago. One is healthy as can be and the other passed way too soon. Now Jackson on the other hand was a little different, on paper everything seemed fine, health tested, good pedigree, but my gut told me something was off, but I didn't stand a chance he was just too cute, LOL!! He was 5 months old, possible red flag there, also the breeder seemed to have a few too many puppies at once. She had explanations for all my concerns and it really was a spur of the moment decision. I paid $600 for him and he's had a couple behavioral issues we work on, but he is worth it. He's my baby so I can't regret buying from someone I wasn't 100% comfortable with.


I personally wouldn't pay $2500 either. I would pay $950 to $1100 for a female Toy, but that would be my limit on how high I would go. Unfortunately, I couldn't even do that right now as I have some obstacles in my way. First and foremost, my health. I'm unable to physically care for a dog right now, and it would not be fair to ask my husband to take complete care of it, since he's my care giver, helping me all of the time, and he has his own health issues as well. I need to get myself healthy, and know that I can properly care for it, before I would even consider getting another Poodle.

PLUS, my husband and I are both in our 60's, and, as much as we don't want to, it's important to think ahead financially. I believe that ALL Senior Citizens need to get their finances in order, just in case something happens to one, or both, of them. We have money in the bank, and we're doing okay financially, but, as much as possible, that money needs to stay there. If one of us has to go into a nursing home for an extended amount of time, at least we'll have some money to fall back on. Not everyone is rich, or can afford a well bred $2000 Poodle.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Nothing aggravates me more than a Greeder who thinks that they can charge the same price as a health testing show breeder.
> Especially the "teacup" and "rare color" breeders.



Walk into any pet shop and that is the cost.(1,200- 1,400) Honestly, when I bought Zoe that is the only way I knew to purchase a dog. I am sure there are many more people like me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

mom2Zoe said:


> Walk into any pet shop and that is the cost.(1,200- 1,400) Honestly, when I bought Zoe that is the only way I knew to purchase a dog. I am sure there are many more people like me.


Your candor about Zoe's origins has been very instructive. Only when people talk about their experiences can anyone learn. You've always shared openly and honestly. Your willingness to do so is why Zoe is such a great dog.

Separately, clearly not all folks can afford the prices some breeders ask, but since I think the purchase price of the puppy is really only a small part of the cost of the dog over its lifetime not affording the purchase price means not affording the dog over its life span. For poodles there is the cost of grooming (even if you do it yourself there are costs) and for all dogs there is food, medical (routine and being prepared for emergencies), house sitting or boarding if you travel without them, toys and training aids, cost of training classes or hiring a trainer, etc. If you show your dog in any venue add in the entry fees, hiring a handler if needed, travel costs, etc. I am sure I am leaving some things out too! It is extremely selfish to take on the responsibility of a dog or other pet if you cannot afford their good care.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

mom2Zoe said:


> Walk into any pet shop and that is the cost.(1,200- 1,400) Honestly, when I bought Zoe that is the only way I knew to purchase a dog. I am sure there are many more people like me.


MANY people don't know where well-bred dogs come from. Maybe even most people!

One of the senior research scientists at my lab asked me what store I got Ari at and if they had any more because she was considering getting a poodle. I tried to explain that she came from a breeder across the country that I sought out myself and not a store, and she just seemed very confused by the whole idea. And she was taken aback by the upfront cost for her, even though many pet store/greeder dogs are similar in price if not more expensive.

I also have encountered a lot of snobbery about her because she is pure-bred, and another scientist asked me if she had any neurotic behaviors yet because purebred poodles have a lot of problems. That scientist went on to say that it is "too bad" that I didn't get a doodle. I am amazed how little my PhD coworkers know about dogs and the misconceptions they have about animal husbandry. One misconception that I know will resonate with people on this forum: that mating two different breeds together results in a healthier dog. Nothing in genetics is that simple (which these scientists know rationally since we run one of the biggest genetics labs in the country) but somehow when it comes to dogs their many years of education just turn off. It's very interesting.

A big barrier to putting greeders out of business is informing people that there is another, and often times cheaper (or maybe the same price), option to that puppy in the pet store or the litter on Craigslist.

I say all of this having had my first poodle come from a litter born in my neighbor's back yard, $300. I have nothing against the _dogs_ that come from these situations; Sophie is the best dog ever! Ari is also wonderful, and she started life from two fully health-tested parents and comes from a long line of champions in conformation and agility, $1600.

A beloved dog is beloved regardless of its pedigree or health testing. I have a huge problem with people who use dogs to unethically turn a profit.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well said sophie anne. One of the reasons I really love Ian Dunbar is because he really wants to help people have great companion dogs by helping them make excellent foundations with them when they are puppies. He has a vision of there being no need for rescues or shelters or euthanizing dogs because of poor manners across the spectrum from house soiling to destroying property to biting and aggression. 

I think if his vision can be approached it will put a lot of greeders out of business because people will understand how important the temperament of the parents, their health as best can be assessed and the work that a young litter is for a breeder and they will seek puppies that come from responsible breeders as a result. In the meantime, yes, a well loved dog is the best dog for any person no matter where they came from or how they started out in life.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

I just saw this thread, and I have to reply and share my experiences...

First of all, I am a healthy, 68 yr. old woman.

I have been an animal lover from the first time I took my first steps. Over my lifetime, I have been blessed with many, many animals. I have raised and loved dogs, cats, horses, birds, and mini donkeys.

I have shown, and had handlers/trainers show some of my pets at the highest levels...(American Quarter Horse Association state and national levels (World and Congress), (spent $20,000 for my mare), and had a poodle shown ( and she went all the way to Best in Show at 9 months, and entered for Westminster) I have paid over $2000. for dogs from champion breeders who had died anywhere from 1 yr. (liver), to 10 yrs. old (cancer), and I have had rescues live over 11years old with no problems.


What does this say?

While, yes, testing is great, and the poodle breed has become better for it...there used to be such over breeding of poodles in the 60's up to today, that if you had a poodle, and I had a poodle, we had puppies, no matter what the health problems were. Hence, the long backed, buggy eyed, short legged, bad disposition poodles appeared all over the place.
Now, due to better breeding, genetics, & showing (although, I have known of some "champions" that have health problems, it is just not discussed) the breed is vesting improved.

Having said that, I disagree that unless you have "money", you shouldn't own a dog. There are many, many homes out there that would provide a wonderful life for a pet, and yet, aren't wealthy.

1. I paid $1800.00 for a schnauzer that came from "genetic" tested parents, or so said the breeder. I bought her from a "good" breeder and had her shipped to me after extensive phone conversations, pictures, videos, pics of mom and dad's championships, etc. At 3 yrs. old she came down with a huge tumor on her kidney and had an $2000. surgery to remove both tumor and kidney....she is doing fine now, but has allergy problems.

2. Adopted a schnauzer who was 1 yr. old from a rescue, paid $150.....she is 7 now, and never had any health issues...(and she is the light of our lives).

3. Bought a toy poodle 11 yrs. ago from a lady in Chicago...paid $400. and no health checks...and never had a health problem.

4. Bought a mini poodle from a well-known breeder in San Diego 10 yrs. ago, champ parents, health tested, paid $1500., had her shipped to me, no health problems.

5. And now, just bought a standard poodle 2 weeks ago, ( she will be 12 weeks old Sat.) for $600. parents not tested, grandparents were tested, and so far, very healthy.

HEALTH CANNOT BE GUARANTED.....All you can hope for is that GENETIC problems don't seem to run in families. There are NO tests for genetic cancer, tumors, etc. 
Yes, I know, testing is expensive, so is showing, but is showing really necessary? Isn't it just a beauty contest? Or a performance contest? Should people pay high prices for showing, agility, etc?

The pup I paid $600. for is the first time I actually toured the facility and saw and played with the bitch and sire. The first time a breeder wrote, dated and signed a LIFE TIME genetic health guarantee. This was for replacement, not money back.

Will ANY of my dogs live a long life....I dunno....will I?

Having said all this...this is my advice....pick out the pup you want...for the price you feel is both fair and affordable. See the bitch and sire's AKC papers...see what ancestors were tested for...or not, see the bitch and sire, tour the place to make sure this isn't a puppy miller, and go for it.
I get a little miffed that people get all high and mighty about "well, for 20 generations, my puppy's ancestors were from champions lines"....or "what! your puppy's parents weren't genetically tested", and then, let's be honest, even the "TOP" breeders justify their prices of $2500-and up because "we show our dogs" and "we had ours tested", while that is great...how much does it really cost to test your dogs, and when they have let's say a litter of 6 plus puppies, and breed a bitch once a year for several years, the income is damn good, and helps their show expenses a lot.

I know I'm gonna get flamed, but at least in the Quarter Horse world, our top mares and studs were all DNA....and that testing cost around $35.00, then to get papers, your foals must be DNA tested and match the stud and mares DNA.

Just like the stupid prices of "designer" dogs. You gotta be kidding me...what's wrong with people? They are mutts...and should be priced as such.

Ok...I'm done.....have at me.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Dogs123 I agree
All toys from 3.1 to 8 pounds
45 years ago my first poodle male cost 250 from a breeder he lived to be 15
34 years ago Tara 75 wife left man did not want dogs, he wanted 175, was 15
29 years ago Tina breeder had to many zoning dept steeped in got her for 50 was 19
15 years ago Schotsie owner died paid 150, she was from a very good breeder purchased by previous owner, but health problems lived to be 11
8 years ago Bella and Jasmin from breeder going out of business paid 200 for each dog she has dry eyes still going strong. Jasmin got her cleaned up and found her a nice home.
1 year ago Cayenne 600 she was to small to breed vet says she is healthy, and spoiled

You take a chance whether from a good breeder, and not so good. All but 2 of mine were re-homed, but I would also take a rescue, my limit for a dog is 1,000 but I do not really want puppies I prefer 8 months to 3 years old

Oops missed a silky terrier, 500 dumbest, nastiness dog I ever owned gave him away after 1 year, would never own anything with terrier in it again


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

dogs123 said:


> ... I disagree that unless you have "money", you shouldn't own a dog. There are many, many homes out there that would provide a wonderful life for a pet, and yet, aren't wealthy.
> 
> 
> Having said all this...this is my advice....pick out the pup you want...for the price you feel is both fair and affordable. See the bitch and sire's AKC papers...see what ancestors were tested for...or not, see the bitch and sire, tour the place to make sure this isn't a puppy miller, and go for it.
> ...


I don't think anyone is saying you have to be wealthy to own a dog--just able to cover all of their expenses. I'm far from wealthy, but I spend most of my money on my dogs because they are my joy in my life, my surrogate kids. I shop at Marshalls and Target, and after getting Maizie, I gave up my daily Starbucks habit so that I can pay for her grooming and insurance. 

As for puppy prices, I agree that asking a lot for a dog _just because _it's from health tested parents is ridiculous. I only wanted a dog from a breeder who shows in conformation to better the breed. As you know from horse showing, you don't make money, and are extremely lucky if you break even with your costs.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

dogs123 said:


> I just saw this thread, and I have to reply and share my experiences...
> 
> First of all, I am a healthy, 68 yr. old woman.
> 
> ...


Okay, I've have at you, lol! First off, I'm quoting your whole post because I think it's one of several that really is right on! Thank you so much for taking your time to write all of that. 

I was a little miffed when I read a few posts back when someone said unless you have money, that you shouldn't own a dog. Not miffed at the person, but just at the statement. Having owned Poodles for 38 years, I believe I have been a great mom to all of my babies, and there was NEVER a time that I didn't spend whatever money that I needed to for their care and well being. I've always said that even if I had to give up my portion of my house( my brother and I both own the house together), I would do it in a heartbeat, just to make sure my babies had the best care. That includes my precious cats as well.

There's really not much more than I need to say. I think Dogs123 said it very well, and I totally agree with everything she said!!  

Kathy


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't pay $1000 plus for dogs either, I could, but I don't want a puppy. I want a dog in need of a home. The most I have ever paid was $800 for Carley and she was almost 7 years old....people thought that was crazy as well, but I always come back with, " How much did your last vacation cost?". That shuts them up pretty quick.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hi...

It was said/intimated that if you don't have "the money" to afford all the expenses of owning a dog, you should not own one.
I think any intelligent person would know that purchasing ANY pet there comes the responsibility of good pet ownership.
My daughter is a senior vet tech at a major 24 hour pet emergency hospital in a major city, and she says the receive all kinds of problems on doggie care.
She said that some of their emergency problems (hit by car, swallowed something, poisoned, eye hurt, etc.) there comes a price. And she said some of the surgeries are very, very expensive. However, the problem she sees is that there are people who have an 11 yr. old dog, with a bad heart, and the people will spend an ungodly amount to save them, and then there are the people who won't spend a dime on a young dog with a broken leg. 
Point being....I believe that a person should do everything they can to help a dog in need...but within their budget. They have to realize that a broken bone will heal, but a broken, twisted gut probably won't even with care.

With ANY pet ownership comes responsibility....emotionally, and physically. But that doesn't mean that if you can't afford cataract surgery on your dog, or you can't pay for a genetically tested animal, you shouldn't own one...and that was intimidated by several on here...

Just not true.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks Kathy Ann...

We are on the same page!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have to disagree as well about all rescues being unhealthy . All my dog except for two have been rescues and re-homes, I have NEVER had an unhealthy dog. I have had to get a few to good health including Stella who came from a great breeder that does do heath testing. I do have to say that your chances will be higher for good health if the dog is still young. When you rescue an older dog that did not have good care the price will most of the time go up with vet bills.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Carley's Mom said:


> I don't pay $1000 plus for dogs either, I could, but I don't want a puppy. I want a dog in need of a home. The most I have ever paid was $800 for Carley and she was almost 7 years old....people thought that was crazy as well, but I always come back with, " How much did your last vacation cost?". That shuts them up pretty quick.



LOL, what a great comeback!! It's true!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I will stand by what I said earlier. Quite honestly I see dogs in shelters put there because people couldn't afford to do right by them. Even if the dog is free (and fine if it is. I never said you couldn't get a good dog for free or nearly so.) there are expenses that many people don't consider. Look at all the folks at your vet's office trying to negotiate payment plans or opting to put a dog or cat down that has a treatable but expensive to treat condition. If you don't see that happening, trust me it is. I've known my vet for a very long time and have long standing friendships with other vets and vet techs and dog trainers. They can all tell many such stories.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Lily, I agree!

I have seen over and over people taking their dogs to shelters because they can't afford the medical bills. I usually see it when the dog comes down with an unexpected illness or is in an accident. The dog is treatable but the person can't afford the bill, so they either put the dog down or take it to the shelter. What gets me is they soon go out and "rescue" another dog that is healthy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

N2M yes it is being prepared for the unexpected things that most people trip over. When the economic recession hit in 2008 a lot of folks around here (we are a Wall Street bedroom community) found themselves underwater in their mortgages. Since they were making short sales on their homes and renting their dogs and cats ended up in shelters. The shelters suffered because they had so many animals and the people who had been donors didn't have money for their houses, cars and food let alone their dogs and cats.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

The cost and health of our dogs is not a simple matter. I paid top dollar for purebred PWDs and 2 of them had Addisons Disease which is a lifetime medical condition. There is no test for that disease, but if there was, I would want my puppy's parents to have that test.

So paying a lot does not guarantee a healthy dog, just like paying little to nothing does not automatically mean the dog will be unhealthy. 

But I do know that I don't want my dog to go blind, so I want the genetic test for PRA performed on his parents along with any other available genetic tests. Why not eliminate the possibility of some disease if you can?

I want to support those breeders who do do genetic testing and there is nothing wrong with them making a profit to continue to breed genetically healthy dogs. So I will pay more to those breeders to make sure they are there the next time I want one.

Just like there are people who are not aware of what type of dog a doodle really is (a mixed breed that may shed and grow larger than expected), there are people who want a poodle who are unaware of how much money it takes to support them and how much time it takes to take care of them. Those unaware people also don't want to pay a lot and OFTEN don't look into the background of their dog. So when they get a sick one, or they see how much it takes to care for one, they may give the dog up. Or they may pay anything it takes to take care of them.

Since we are talking about generalities, all of us are right because the circumstances are different for different people. The personalities are different. Some discard dogs like used up toys. Other cherish them like children. It just depends on the people, their personalities, and their circumstances (ill health or good health).

So we can each cry, "I'm right! You're wrong to even suggest otherwise!" but that statement would be short-sighted and does not acknowledge different real life situations.

I will pay a lot for a dog even if it is not a guarantee of perfect health. I just want to eliminate as many diseases as possible and support those breeders. Others who don't worry about genetic testing and have had good luck in the past, I am glad for you.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Minipoo, my poodle growing up had PRA. I so agree with you! It was so sad for our Niki. She was so smart and wanted to run and play and her absolute favorite thing was to chase the squirrels....and then went blind. She was still a wonderful dog for many years but she could have done so much more had she been able to see!


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, don't get me started on how difficult rescues make it for people o adopt - living in a high rise, without a fenced yard, I would not ever have a had a poodle. Thank goodness for the breeders who thought I was "good enough", or I would have missed out on 7 wonderful dogs....
> Besides, I get a little queasy when people suggest that someone get a rescue if they cannot afford a puppy, because the odds are as high, or likely higher, that the dog will wind up costing them ten times the price of a puppy in vet bills etc.


Tiny Poodles, you would have been approved in a minute at the rescues I am involved with. 

There are purebred, health tested poodles out there in rescues that wind up there because of so many different reasons. Not all rescue dogs are poorly bred. You will not get their registration papers or who they previously belonged to because of privacy issues but there are well bred poodles in rescues. There are also back yard breeders, puppy mill poodles, owner surrenders, strays, you name it. 

To adopt you must acknowledge that the dog no matter what size is an inside dog and will not live outside. It must be given heartworm preventative and taken to the doctor when needed and/or once a year. That is all that is required. Whether you live in an apartment or on an estate should not matter if you can guarantee the dog will have a happy healthy life. At least this is how the rescues I deal with here in Houston feel.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> but is showing really necessary? Isn't it just a beauty contest? Or a performance contest?


Dogs 123. Showing is absolutely not_ just _a beauty contest. If a dog is not sound conformationally, he is not likely in optimum health. Conformation is very much an indicator of health. If he has too long a back or not enough bend in his stifle, how is he going to run or jump without hurting himself or breaking down? Performance: If a dog can't perform in a way that is in line with what he was bred to do, then he is not of optimum health either. A judge observes and evaluates a dog's temperament whether he is showing conformation or a performance sport. Is the dog temperamentally sound to perform what he was bred to do? Is he an asset to the breed? Or a detriment? Should this dog be bred? Are any faults significant enough that he should be taken out of the gene pool? Some of the things they're looking for may seem frivolous. But in breeding dog breeds, there has always been a need for uniformity or they wouldn't all look pretty much the same, like they do. So, a show and a judge lets us know that a dog is meeting this uniformity that makes a breed a breed. Without, dogs might stray too far from the standards and there'd be nothing to live up to. People would breed like byb do or puppy mills and dogs within a breed would wind up looking quite different from one another and pretty soon there'd be no individual breeds. 

In the case of a Poodle, is the coat ample enough to withstand the cold water when retrieving? Is he squarely built so he can hunt, run, jump, maneuver in brush or through the water? If his conformation is poor, he may not have stamina or he may not be able to physically accomplish what he was bred to do.

In the case of a Doberman, (an example of another of my favorite breeds) is his temperament nervous, shy, fearful or aggressive? Or does he have what is known as a healthy suspicion of strangers, but calm, stable and accepting? Is this dog built well physically so he can run and jump without injuring himself? Can he do the job of protection that he was bred to do? 

The list can go on and on. You can take any breed. And showing or championships are not the end all but combined with genetic health tests that are available, these titles add one more very valid thing to say about the dog and his lines.

I am not overly concerned with the cost of a dog as long as the cost is_ justifiable _to me. I would much rather pay someone who breeds responsibly than one who does not, even if it costs a little more. I like to reward a job well done. If I think the asking price is significantly out of the norm with nothing extra to be paying for, I'll keep looking. I also like to see a breeder who, while is justified in making a little money, isn't trying to grab _so _much that money becomes a more significant factor than good homes for the pups and responsible breeding practices that show his/her interest in preserving and improving the breed.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I want to clarify that I don't think rescues are necessarily unhealthy. I have witnessed the rescue and rehabilitation, many miraculous, of a friend's Golden Retrievers. Unfortunately there has been such a parade of those dogs in the 12 years I've known her that I was gun shy. She was devoted to the breed and there were at least 6 heartbreaks after sparing no expense to get them healthy and fit. And I don't think you need to spend mega bucks to get a beautiful, healthy dog. I went to a reputable breeder because I wanted a health heartbreak hedge, not that that is a sure thing, and because Poodles are a new breed for us. I wanted it to look like a Poodle is supposed to look too and I wanted a puppy. Like many others, I'm willing to scrimp on something else. Finally, I hate when someone asks how much something costs, unless they preface it with "Do you mind if I ask?" I especially hate the question when it's coming with pre-loaded judgements. So far, only one person has asked me how much I paid for Buck and he has never owned a dog in his life.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

"Yes, I know, testing is expensive, so is showing, but is showing really necessary? Isn't it just a beauty contest? Or a performance contest? Should people pay high prices for showing, agility, etc?"

I missed this part in your earlier post when I first looked at it dogs123. Any conformation or performance event is a way of testing the dog's build, ability to work and temperament. All of those are evidence of its probable good health and suitability for breeding. Additionally the people who show choose it. My point was about people who can't even afford decent medical care for their dog if an emergency arises.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Four years ago (Before Molly) my plans were all in place to get the best dog I could! Fully health tested, pedigreed, and papered! I felt that would give me some guarantee of receiving a dog that would be all it should be, according to it's breed..................then I met my Molly who was being re-homed because the young handicapped man who had raised this litter of OOPS! pups (4 female pups) could not afford to have them vaccinated or licensed ( they were 16 weeks old) He was not asking for any money, just assurance that his precious girls would go to loving homes. Molly was a 'freebie' (although I did tuck the 80.00 in cash I had on me, in his pocket while he protested! LOL!)
Molly has been one of the healthiest, well tempered, intelligent dogs I have ever owned! She is a one-of-a kind never to be copied poodle mutt! (Her DNA is pretty weird but she is 50% poodle!) Can't even give her a 'designer dog' breed name HAHAHA!!!! Other than being spayed and having her rabies vac. she has never had to have a Vet visit ....I give my own DHPP-C 's, wormings, etc. & know pretty much what to watch for as far as illnesses (retired Vet Tech) and so far at 3 years old she's never even had an upset tummy!
So even though I have to agree on the importance of fully health tested and conformation proofing (showing) of purebred dogs, I've had astounding luck with Molly as a companion!!!!!!!
My 'puppy fund' is sooooooo much fun to spend on her!!!! LOL!!!


P.S. Molly has a large emergency account for just-in-case!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MollyMuiMa said:


> Four years ago (Before Molly) my plans were all in place to get the best dog I could! Fully health tested, pedigreed, and papered! I felt that would give me some guarantee of receiving a dog that would be all it should be, according to it's breed..................then I met my Molly who was being re-homed because the young handicapped man who had raised this litter of OOPS! pups (4 female pups) could not afford to have them vaccinated or licensed ( they were 16 weeks old) He was not asking for any money, just assurance that his precious girls would go to loving homes. Molly was a 'freebie' (although I did tuck the 80.00 in cash I had on me, in his pocket while he protested! LOL!)
> Molly has been one of the healthiest, well tempered, intelligent dogs I have ever owned! She is a one-of-a kind never to be copied poodle mutt! (Her DNA is pretty weird but she is 50% poodle!) Can't even give her a 'designer dog' breed name HAHAHA!!!! Other than being spayed and having her rabies vac. she has never had to have a Vet visit ....I give my own DHPP-C 's, wormings, etc. & know pretty much what to watch for as far as illnesses (retired Vet Tech) and so far at 3 years old she's never even had an upset tummy!
> So even though I have to agree on the importance of fully health tested and conformation proofing (showing) of purebred dogs, I've had astounding luck with Molly as a companion!!!!!!!
> My 'puppy fund' is sooooooo much fun to spend on her!!!! LOL!!!
> ...


Nice post! Heart warming.

You know...there are lots of stories similar. I have my examples too. Jose` and Chulita, my two Chihuahuas came from a byb. And they have been healthy until Chulita got over taken by CHF but she was 13 years old. Up until then she was healthy as a horse...never one bad thing happened with her. Jose` only has had luxating patellas and after surgery on the worst one years ago, he's been exceedingly healthy. He's 13 now and had a couple of weirdnesses, like possibly vestibular and one seizure just recently. But he's still playful and taking his walks and runs around a little. But again...up until recently he's also been very healthy. I can go on...my childhood dogs, both mutts...one lived to be 18 and one, 15...not toy breeds either. (and they ate Purina dog chow) lol.

My Doberman came from a very reputable breeder, fantastic pedigree, wonderful conformation, temperament was everything one could ask for, everything in place. He had in his 4 short years, masticatory myocitis, which came and went, head tremors, (idiopathic, came and went) two types of liver disease and then he got stomach cancer which killed him. 4 years old. He was $1,000. Her asking price was $1,200 but I wound up talking her down to $1,000. 

My Chi's were $500 each but Jose`s surgery was also $500. So that makes him worth $1,000. LOL. Both Chi's had/have excellent temperaments. I lucked out. 

My Poodles are only 2 years old so it's too soon to know how they'll turn out. But they came from a reputable breeder.

There are all kinds of like stories. And in fact, I do believe that the more uniform, the more homegeny, the more narrow the gene pool, the odds can be pretty high that something will get them at some point. On the other hand, if the lines are very healthy, it's a better chance of not getting something. The problem is many breeds have issues in ALL the lines. Oy! 

And I think that mix breeds are not necessarily healthier except that they have a broader gene pool. The odds of some disease may be lower in many cases. But that is not to say that some particular dog's ancestors didn't have some terrible issue that might be passed on even if he is a mixed breed. 

Either way, it's a bit of a crap shoot. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But to keep our breeds breeds, then they have to be pretty uniform and that means rather limited genetic material to work with.


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## frecklesdmk (Mar 27, 2013)

No matter where the dogs in our life come from, how we get them, what we pay, how responsibly they are bred, the most important thing is they are loved and we take care of them to the best of our ability. I do not believe there is a single right way. 

As I was reading all of the comments, I couldn't help but compare to my children. I didn't have to purchase them, my husband and I weren't health tested, we haven't been judged in shows and found to meet high standards and some of our ancestors have had health issues. My kids have had some health issues, their clothing, food, shelter, grooming and schooling needs are met sufficiently and within my monetary means. 

Some children have better food, bigger homes, better schooling, and better clothes than mine do and some children have less then mine. Doesn't mean that the parents who spend more are more responsible, they love their kids more, or are more deserving to have kids. Doesn't mean that those kids will have better health, better social skills, or better emotional stability.


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## Zhuhaibill (Jul 10, 2015)

Bravo! I think your comments show true class. Both your kids and dog(s) are so lucky to be part of your life!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have often been struck that while many things are regularly tested for - conformation, performance ability, heretable diseases, etc - the things that are probably of most importance to the vast majority of dog owners looking for a family pet - temperament, good health, longevity - are often mentioned but rarely tested or documented. There was an interesting article by a top Agility competitor demonstrating that her poodle with "perfect" conformation according to the standard was actually less successful than her dogs with less perfect but more useful conformation (I will dig it out, unless there is an Agility afficianado that can find it for me!), so conformation cannot always be taken as a signifier of good physical construction even in poodles - and in some breeds it is driving structures that are downright detrimental to the dogs. As PB says, the pursuit of homogeneity in looks has led to a homogeneity in genes that is not good news for our dogs' health. 

Perhaps in the perfect world we would all have a system along the lines of that I believe is in place in Finland. Dogs would be independently assessed for their suitability for breeding, taking into account their temperament and family history as well as their looks, and far more would then be bred by small scale home breeders than by puppy mills or show kennels. Some control over the quality of dogs being bred, wider range of genes entering the gene pool, pups get the advantages of being raised in a home, puppy buyers get the advantages of their being enough nice pups to meet the demand, so prices remain affordable.

Once upon a time most people knew the parents of any pup they acquired, and probably its grandparents, aunts, uncles and older siblings too. Jo Bloggs' nice little bitch would have mated with Jim's cheerful dog, and the pups would have been a mish mash of looks but pretty reliable in terms of health and temperament. 

In the meantime breeding dogs well is an expensive business - in time as well as dollars. If I am buying a puppy where the breeder has invested many, many hours of time into researching the best stud and paying stud fees, bringing the bitch into peek condition, health testing both, sitting up all night (or several nights) with a whelping bitch, and then monitoring the litter day and night for a while, possibly funding an emergency cesarean, handling puppies from a few days old, providing all the expereinces a pup needs to grow up confident and well socialised (a full time job with a large litter), etc, etc, then I think it is only fair to recognise that time input in the price of the puppy!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I bet the analysis you're looking for is this one: Conformationstudy

Very interesting stuff there. The "perfect" conformation for the Poodle standard isn't really the "perfect" conformation for Agility. The dog's temperament means so much, too--all the factors of it: trainability, work ethic, etc.

--Q


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## SeoulTeddy (Jan 8, 2015)

Wow, this seems to be quite an emotive subject. I certainly don't have the experience or knowledge to get too much involved. 

What I will say is that my grandparents had a cocker spaniel. They got him when I was 3 and he died at 15 years old when I was 18. They paid a lot of money from him, health tested etc and apparently his parents were champions. The dog never had a sick day in his life and passed away of old age. He had the soundest temperament of any dog I've ever known. It was a standing joke in the family that if a burglar got into the house, Bertie would lick them to death. 

I look at Teddy and although he has yet to show any health issues, he is not of sound temperament in the slightest. However, I do love him dearly and have no regrets. Maybe I just got unlucky in terms of his temperament as there seems to be many here with dogs from less than 'stellar' breeders or circumstances who have had no issues like those that Teddy and I have. 

If I'm ever in a position to get a dog again and don't choose to go the rescue route, I will be more than happy to splash the cash (if I have it) in the hope that I may get a dog as stable and healthy as my grandparent's spaniel.

To each their own. The most important thing is that we all love our dogs unconditionally regardless of their background and treat them wonderfully


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks Quossum! I found it very interesting reading. Apologies for the spelling mistakes in my post - comes of getting involved in PF before putting my contact lenses in...


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Your candor about Zoe's origins has been very instructive. Only when people talk about their experiences can anyone learn. You've always shared openly and honestly. Your willingness to do so is why Zoe is such a great dog.
> 
> Separately, clearly not all folks can afford the prices some breeders ask, but since I think the purchase price of the puppy is really only a small part of the cost of the dog over its lifetime not affording the purchase price means not affording the dog over its life span. For poodles there is the cost of grooming (even if you do it yourself there are costs) and for all dogs there is food, medical (routine and being prepared for emergencies), house sitting or boarding if you travel without them, toys and training aids, cost of training classes or hiring a trainer, etc. If you show your dog in any venue add in the entry fees, hiring a handler if needed, travel costs, etc. I am sure I am leaving some things out too! It is extremely selfish to take on the responsibility of a dog or other pet if you cannot afford their good care.


Thanks Lilly for the kind words.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Quossum said:


> I bet the analysis you're looking for is this one: Conformationstudy
> 
> Very interesting stuff there. The "perfect" conformation for the Poodle standard isn't really the "perfect" conformation for Agility. The dog's temperament means so much, too--all the factors of it: trainability, work ethic, etc.
> 
> --Q


So much truth here. Some of the breeds especially, that adhere to the "standard" are really quite unsound. I'm picturing English Bulldogs and what they've been doing to a lot of the GSDs lately among other breeds. So, yeah...dog shows are certainly not the end all in all breeds. I think no animal should have an overly long back or hips that won't stay in place. So, it's a lot of variables I guess that makes a difference.


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## laskuhn (Jun 6, 2015)

Timely thread for me right now! I joined the forum a few months ago, when we began our poodle hunting in earnest. In reading this particular thread, I noticed the phrase "well bred" being bandied about quite a bit. The assumption seems to be that well-bred means health/genetic testing, concern with temperament, and a good home life for the breeding dogs. At least that is what I can gather.

I grew up with 2 different poodles (one when I was 8-18 yrs old; another when I was 18 who then lived primarily with my parents, and she lived to be ~15). I got a Bichon when I was 24, and we just put her to sleep this spring, when she was 17. 

I paid $375 for my Bichon, who I think was from a back yard breeder, but she did not have very many dogs. Molly had not 1 serious health problem.

I have allergies and am committed to a pure bred dog b/c I need to be assured the dog is hypo-allergenic. I loved my poodles and am looking forward to becoming reacquainted with the wonderful poodle intelligence and personality. My husband also grew up with poodles.

Though others may disagree, I'm of the opinion that no matter how "well bred," one is taking a chance on a dog. That's life. It is far more important to me that the dogs who produce my future puppy have a good life and the breeder treats everyone well. I want a puppy who was loved and socialized early in life.

We (esp. my husband) really want a miniature, and they are awfully hard to find in this part of the country, and we don't have any experience buying a dog to be shipped (and I'm a little scared of that). One breeder in our area is firm on a 2k price, and we've sadly had to move on from that. As some have said, we each have our price limits, and that is beyond ours.

Interesting discussion! Hoping I can post pictures of a new little girl come fall. Wish us luck!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

laskuhn said:


> Though others may disagree, I'm of the opinion that no matter how "well bred," one is taking a chance on a dog. That's life. It is far more important to me that the dogs who produce my future puppy have a good life and the breeder treats everyone well. I want a puppy who was loved and socialized early in life.


Every show breeder I spoke with admitted that while they do health testing, there are no guarantees--you're only lessening the risk of health problems. 

In addition to showing and health testing, it was imperative that my puppy had been raised with love in the home and well-socialized. In choosing the right breeder, I got exactly what I wanted 

I hope you find your dream puppy too


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

laskuhn said:


> Timely thread for me right now! I joined the forum a few months ago, when we began our poodle hunting in earnest. In reading this particular thread, I noticed the phrase "well bred" being bandied about quite a bit. The assumption seems to be that well-bred means health/genetic testing, concern with temperament, and a good home life for the breeding dogs. At least that is what I can gather.
> 
> I grew up with 2 different poodles (one when I was 8-18 yrs old; another when I was 18 who then lived primarily with my parents, and she lived to be ~15). I got a Bichon when I was 24, and we just put her to sleep this spring, when she was 17.
> 
> ...


If you had your choice of two dogs and one had or had parents who had the DNA test for PRA and the dogs were clear... (the answer is definitive with this test) and the other dog or ancestors of the dog had not had the test, which one would you choose, being all else is equal... as much as you could ascertain? The question could be extended for other issues...say you have two breeders. One has dogs that you know for a fact come from ancestors that had certain other diseases or maladies that can't be tested for but are hereditary. Or they had poor longevity. And the other breeder has dogs that you know have been selected from ancestors that have not had any health problems and had good longevity. Which breeder would you choose? What if one breeder had dogs you know nothing about one way or the other and you meet another breeder who has positively tested for those diseases that can be tested for and that breeder had a list of people who had bought puppies from him/her for years and those people told you their dogs were healthy as horses and lived to be 18 years old and had stupendous temperaments, which would you go with?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting questions, PB, but sometimes the choices are different - perhaps between a breeder who tests, and one whose dogs have superb temperaments but little or no testing; or between a breeder whose dogs' progeny all seem to have lived long and healthy lives but are rather imperfect in conformation, and a real show stopper of a pup; or between a high volume show kennel where testing etc is done by the book but the pups get minimal exposure to the world in their first few months versus a local person breeding the occasional litter without tests, but where the pups have grown up in a house full of children, dogs, cats and everyday activities... Sometimes the decision is rather less cut and dried. We all want perfection - testing, longevity, excellent conformation, life long good health, happy social upbringing, wonderful temperament, etc, etc at a price that fits our budget. In a less than perfect world we may need to decide which of these we are prepared to compromise on - and I think putting the welfare of all the dogs involved first is not a bad start.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> Interesting questions, PB, but sometimes the choices are different - perhaps between a breeder who tests, and one whose dogs have superb temperaments but little or no testing; or between a breeder whose dogs' progeny all seem to have lived long and healthy lives but are rather imperfect in conformation, and a real show stopper of a pup; or between a high volume show kennel where testing etc is done by the book but the pups get minimal exposure to the world in their first few months versus a local person breeding the occasional litter without tests, but where the pups have grown up in a house full of children, dogs, cats and everyday activities... Sometimes the decision is rather less cut and dried. We all want perfection - testing, longevity, excellent conformation, life long good health, happy social upbringing, wonderful temperament, etc, etc at a price that fits our budget. In a less than perfect world we may need to decide which of these we are prepared to compromise on - and I think putting the welfare of all the dogs involved first is not a bad start.





> If you had your choice of two dogs and one had or had parents who had the DNA test for PRA and the dogs were clear... (the answer is definitive with this test) and the other dog or ancestors of the dog had not had the test, which one would you choose, *being all else is equal... as much as you could ascertain?*


Fjm...I absolutely agree. The choices include a lot of other factors. That is why I wrote the bolded part of my quote. It's a balancing act sometimes. Perfect in one way, imperfect in another way. Which is the priority for an individual? I know there_ are _breeders though, who have relatively healthy, (as much as can be) long lived, well built dogs in their blood lines, with great temperaments, where they're raised in a household nicely and where the price isn't astronomical. I think I found one when I got my puppies. I paid $1,000 for Matisse and got Maurice half off. lol. And Matisse turned out to be a show dog. (they're usually more) Their temperaments are awesome. They're very pretty and well socialized. And as far as I could tell, come from pretty darn healthy dogs. Time will tell with that. 

But I also must keep in mind that ever nagging thing that our purebred dogs are in trouble because of the extreme loss of genetic diversity, which in itself can lead to the break down of our purebred dogs eventually. But that isn't fixed by getting a puppy from someone who doesn't test for anything.


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