# What's better, quality of life or quantity of days?



## lily cd re

In a couple of different threads recently I have been prompted to think about the question above with regard to past companion animals, my current dogs and even people I have loved.

I personally would always weigh in more strongly for the former than the latter for myself and all people and things I love. My dad died just over 20 years ago after suffering terribly from cancer. It was a disease that just about literally ate him alive. In a matter of less than a year he went from being the bedrock foundation of our family to a frail person who had hallucinations about people stealing his toast as he recovered from surgery and then had delirious episodes about going to weddings (something he hated) as he lay dying in my childhood home. But it is not sympathy over his passing that I want to open a conversation about here.

Instead since we have a unique responsibility for the end of life decisions for our companion animals it is those issues I would like to exchange views on. BF's previous GSD died at home after an illness that had lasted just a couple of weeks. In contrast all three of my cats as well as my mom's were euthanized at our vets office. It is my hope when the time comes that I can have the vet come to our house to help our current dogs to be freed from the burdens of their bodies. I will have to talk with him about this sooner than later so that we all are on the same page (even though I think we have some years to go before that day comes). With that as background, my first question is whether any of you have planned in advance for parting with one of your animals in this way?

The next issue related to this that I am interested in is how any of you have made decisions about when and why to end a pet's life. I have a friend whose daughter has a GSD that bit my friend (owner's mother) so badly that she required a full thickness skin graft. This dog also has dog aggression problems and spends almost all of her time muzzled. If I owned this dog and it had put that level of damage onto my mother I would have had it PTS without any iota of remorse. The daughter who owns the dog is risking never having children because of this dog. That seems an awful price to pay for all of the people involved. I have also read here about people who treated dogs that suffered with severe mental and physical consequences of chronic illness for years. That seems selfish to me. If I had an animal that was suffering on a constant daily basis I would want to free it from its suffering. One of the most selfless acts I ever read about here was a PF member who worked very hard to rehabilitate a rescued dog with very little positive results. This dog suffered emotionally all the time and eventually his owner generously freed him from that suffering. I realize different people will make different choices and use different evidence and experience to inform those choices, but I am interested to see what kinds of common views we have and where we differ in our POV.


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## BorderKelpie

Quality of life should always prevail over quantity, IMHO. I'd rather they had fewer days, but be happy and comfortable than live months or years longer just begging for release. 

I, too, am watching my dad disinegrate and it's soul crushing. I never want to allow an animal to suffer the way he is.


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## lily cd re

BK I know this puts me on a slippery slope, but I wish that people could make a decision for themselves in advance of suffering to be allowed to end their lives with dignity and the assistance of an appropriate care provider (we do better for our animals in this area to a great extent).


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## Kassie

This is significant thread for me, and extremely painful. Since September, I have had to euthanize 3 pets; in September, a 10.5 year old shepherd (tumor around his heart burst without warning and he collapsed); in April, a 12 year old tpoo (sudden heart failure) and May, a 16.5 year old Maine **** (even with medications, he ceased eating - nasal tumour). The cat, I prolonged his life because I wasn't able to let him go. The dogs, they were sudden with no warning. Currently, I have a 12 year old female who has survived cancer surgery for 2 years now. Her, I watch carefully and she keeps on ticking nicely, though is slowed way down. My current anguish, is a top level Canadian icon horse who served canada and the US very well in open level national shows, he is 20 years of age and for the past few year, his feet hurt. I rarely ride him and when I do, I put rubber boots on him. Back in June, even with rubber boots, he was undeniably lame at a trot. I gave him time off and last weekend he refused to step across the gravel from his paddock. I tacked him up and in the sand arena, put him into a trot. He was deeply lame. I got off. Bowed my head and took a deep and laboured breath. I untacked him and led him back to his paddock, noting that once again, he refused to walk across the gravel. On Monday past, I called my vet. I called my Mom. And I knew what they would say. My Mother did not raise me and I met her only about 10 years ago. She is an animal person and a horse trainer and I feel her deeply. So when she wrote me, I knew I would trust her. She said, "I know what you are going through. When I had to put Prince down, it was one of the hardest things I had to do. It wasn't fair to let him suffer just because I did not want to let go. So if I had to give any final words to you, it would be to let go and be at peace with you and Kopper. I love you". I have made the arrangements to meet my vet at the barn on Monday morning and we will lay him to rest. I will stand by him and for him as he has done for me. And when the tow truck arrives, I will leave and not watch them move the carcass. That I don't need the memory of. So, the answer must be quality of life. 


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## lily cd re

Kassie I knew you had lost beloved companions this year, but I had no idea that you were so worried and in the throes of this hard decision regarding your horse. I wish both of you a peaceful transition. Your decision is most generous. I don't know much about horses would yours be considered a true senior? An acquaintance of mine had a donkey that lived to be thirty, but I don't know if that would be typical for a horse. If you can, show us a picture of him as a tribute to his life with you.

When BF's last GSD died he was hoping to the very end that he would recover. The dog was 12 years old. He had stopped eating and wouldn't even eat bologna and American cheese that I had brought for him. I knew he would pass and although I think I would have had my vet help him if it had been my decision to make I had to let BF do as he saw fit. Again though his illness was relatively brief. 

While I have never had to decide about a young pet, I think if I found out something deadly was present even in a youngster I would opt to avoid suffering over years of anxiety, pain and medications.


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## BorderKelpie

Oh, Kassie! That's heartbreaking. I will never forget going through that very same thing with my heart-horse, Jackpot. I miss him to this day, but he was hurting so badly. I will be thinking of you guys Monday and sending wished of strength for you. 

*BK I know this puts me on a slippery slope, but I wish that people could make a decision for themselves in advance of suffering to be allowed to end their lives with dignity and the assistance of an appropriate care provider (we do better for our animals in this area to a great extent). *
With some of the stuff I've seen at work and at home, I can not help but agree with you. What some people suffer is absolutely brutal and should never be allowed to drag on.


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## Lori G

This is a topic near to my heart. My dad had Alzheimer's disease. This insidious disease robbed my highly educated father of everything, except family, that he valued and worked for in life. After complications from abdominal surgery our family made the decision to let nature takes its course as we all agreed our dad would not want to continue living, either in his current condition or that forecasted for him.

In another thread, I mention our Aussie Gracie who we PTS while traveling. She had been diagnosed with cancer in April 2014. The vet warned us that, with pain meds, she would probably be fine until "the end", and that it would be obvious when that was. We were on an RV trip and the last really good day we had was in Galveston, TX when we took a walk on the beach. The next day we went to New Orleans to visit our son and she was super happy to see him. But after that first day at his house, she just wouldn't settle down and relax. She was pacing a lot. I kept thinking it was because of being around his dogs while not feeling good. About a week later, we had her PTS. At a minimum, We waited about a week too long. But in my heart, I think it would have been best to let her go before we left on that trip. At home, where she could rest under her favorite tree. She had urinary tract cancer. 

But to answer your question...quality of life for sure. And, I've shared the story long ago in another thread but as much as I love dogs, those with aggression should be PTS. Our family dealt with that, the final bite to my 85 year old grandmother. And it grieves my heart to think of a couple choosing to not have children due to choosing to keep an aggressive dog. That is too sad.


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## zooeysmom

I absolutely hate to watch any being suffer, so I'm all for quality of life vs. quantity of days. I am in favor of the Death with Dignity act for people. Hospice care was pretty good for my mom, but I know other people with terminal illnesses who suffer greatly. If we have the technology to help end suffering, why don't we use it? That is my feeling on it. Fortunately, I have no religious issues to deal with like some people do. 

I have never had any problem deciding to put an animal to sleep. I think my parents were wonderful role models in that way. I don't dread having to make a decision for Maizie or Zooey (hopefully in a long time for both) because I know I will make the right decision when the time comes. I will never let them suffer. I would much rather be devastated by the loss of a pet than remember their last days being full of suffering.


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## lily cd re

zooeysmom I wish we lived close enough to each other to share conversation over a good glass of wine. I think there is much that we have in common. For my family (as you already know) hospice was tremendously helpful when my dad was dying. But I also wish (and think my father would have agreed) that the option of dying on one's own terms had been an option for him.

Lori G I feel very sad for my friends. I know both her and her husband well and have met all three of their children. Their daughter is the only one who is married. Her boys show no signs of being ready to marry and have families of their own. I know they would love nothing more than to be grand parents.

I think cancer isn't a scary experience for a dog or a cat. They don't know what it is and until it is so advanced to affect their appetite or cause pain I think they are still enjoying life. On the other hand chronic renal failure with dialysis or seizures that require invasive or aggressive management over a long period of time would give me pause to think about whether keeping the animal alive was for their benefit or mine. If only mine then I would want to be generous enough to let them go. An old neighbor of mine had a cat on treatment for renal failure for years. I know there are people here who have or have had dogs with seizures. For a dog that simply needs medication and takes it with no big deal then the quality of days is clearly there. For any dog that is so fragile that the whole household spends every day walking on egg shells so as not to upset the dog I think one has to ask if that dog is experiencing a quality of life that is good enough to continue. Each of us will have our own answer to that question, but we are the responsible parties in these relationships. We need to put on our "big girl panties" and make the fair decision for the dog, cat, horse or other loved companion.


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## Granberry

lily cd re said:


> When BF's last GSD died he was hoping to the very end that he would recover. The dog was 12 years old. He had stopped eating and wouldn't even eat bologna and American cheese that I had brought for him. I knew he would pass...


That was the sign for us that Jitterbug, our Chi, was ready...we offered her bologna, and she declined it. She had stopped eating completing completely; she only weighed 3 pounds to begin with, so it didn't take long. 

Kassie, i wish I had words of wisdom for you, but I don't. I can imagine that the relationship you develop with a horse or service dog or dog that works with you in life or obedience trials is different than the relationship you'd develop with a traditional pet. You'd develop a degree of communication and trust that comes from all that time working together. I have never had a horse or worked with a dog in obedience, but I would imagine this to be true. (I'm not disrespecting the love between an owner and any other pet). I guess you just have to remember to preserve his dignity as you make these decisions. 

Sending you good wishes and prayers.


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## lily cd re

Granberry the relationship between me and all three of my dogs transcends the love that I easily felt for them when they were puppies. It stems from that working relationship and the time spent developing the lovely dance of working in a ring with each of them. While it is best developed with Lily by time and numbers of trials I feel it for all of them. I do understand that obedience trials, running agility or going into the conformation ring isn't for everyone even just training towards the idea that you might consider it transforms the relationship.


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## TrixieTreasure

Of definitely, quality of life over quantity is more important. Unfortunately, I learned that the hard way after witnessing first hand at watching my heart dog, Trixie, die on her own in my arms. I was selfish and not wanting to give in to the enevitable. She had stopped eating and instead of doing what was right, I would force feed her with a tube. She got it down and didn't throw it up, but I knew it was a losing battle, as she was losing weight and wasn't enjoying life anymore. I think I let it go on 7 days longer than I should have. Kept hoping and praying that she would start getting better, but knowing in my heart that she wouldn't. My vet said it was time, and even my husband said it was time, but I just couldn't let go. That was in 1998, and I had already gone through pet loss previously, and therefore should have known better.

Never - NEVER again will I wait. Watching her throw up as she was taking her last breath, was horrible. Never, never again.

When a pet loses it's zest for life, and is not able to eat or drink without throwing it up, is losing weight, and the overall quality of life is no longer there, then it's our duty as a loving and responsible pet parent, to do what is right by them. They can't speak with words, but they ARE telling us to please love them enough to let them go.


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## ericwd9

A constantly aggressive or frightened dog is a danger to all those he/she meets. As a general rule we all have empathy and care for one who is sick but when the sickness is mental we seem to lack the understanding needed. A dog who is constantly fearful or aggressive is suffering just as much as one who is losing the use of his legs due to pain. With both dogs and humans waiting and hoping rarely does anything more than extend the suffering. I truly hope, when I become so incapacitated that I can no longer look after my basic needs and my ability to write and interact is gone, that some kind health care professional will help me come to my end with dignity. I have extended that grace to those animals in my care over the years. I have always done the deed myself. I will not have others do my difficult work. I sincerely hope to meet them all again in some space-time. I expect they will be thankful. It is the last great loving care we can give.
Eric


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## Kassie

Granberry said:


> Kassie, i wish I had words of wisdom for you, but I don't. I can imagine that the relationship you develop with a horse or service dog or dog that works with you in life or obedience trials is different than the relationship you'd develop with a traditional pet. You'd develop a degree of communication and trust that comes from all that time working together. I guess you just have to remember to preserve his dignity as you make these decisions.
> 
> 
> 
> Sending you good wishes and prayers.



This is why I find this decision so tormenting. If it was a dog with sore inflamed feet, I would find a way to manage the pain, if it were possible. But a horse, no feet no horse. Kopper was a stallion when I showed him. A grand champion in the heart, he went on as a 5 year old to become Canadian champion cutting horse beating out horses 10 years his senior. He went on to win the nationals in the US and every competition he was ever in. I pulled him from the ring when he was 10 as by then, he was so stoic, the only way we knew he was in pain is how he'd move his shoulder or hindquarters. He was under intense veterinarian care for performance and pain management then. He was dynamic and unbeatable. The partnership, would take chapters to share what that was like. He let me manage him and rise him to high earnings and championships even though he was a stallion and I am only 5"4. I just don't know how to say farewell when his mind is bright and alert I feel humbled, broken and haunting. A horse with the relationship he and I have, his intuition is highly developed. He will know. I will stand with him even though I have heard euthanizing a horse is traumatic. But I can not bear not to be at his side. I hate myself already. To not be there would be cowardly. It's my responsibility and I want to be there till his body falls, even though I surely will break. Perhaps, when I recover, I will write a tribute and post some of his stunning performance photos. Be blessed. 




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## ericwd9

Kassie said:


> This is why I find this decision so tormenting. If it was a dog with sore inflamed feet, I would find a way to manage the pain, if it were possible. But a horse, no feet no horse. Kopper was a stallion when I showed him. A grand champion in the heart, he went on as a 5 year old to become Canadian champion cutting horse beating out horses 10 years his senior. He went on to win the nationals in the US and every competition he was ever in. I pulled him from the ring when he was 10 as by then, he was so stoic, the only way we knew he was in pain is how he'd move his shoulder or hindquarters. He was under intense veterinarian care for performance and pain management then. He was dynamic and unbeatable. The partnership, would take chapters to share what that was like. He let me manage him and rise him to high earnings and championships even though he was a stallion and I am only 5"4. I just don't know how to say farewell when his mind is bright and alert I feel humbled, broken and haunting. A horse with the relationship he and I have, his intuition is highly developed. He will know. I will stand with him even though I have heard euthanizing a horse is traumatic. But I can not bear not to be at his side. I hate myself already. To not be there would be cowardly. It's my responsibility and I want to be there till his body falls, even though I surely will break. Perhaps, when I recover, I will write a tribute and post some of his stunning performance photos. Be blessed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Laminitis in his feet?

Eric.


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## lily cd re

Kassie, don't hate yourself. You said it no feet, no horse. He will run like the wind on the other side of the bridge while he waits for you to be rejoined with him.


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## Kassie

ericwd9 said:


> Laminitis in his feet?
> 
> Eric.




inflammation of the coffin bones and likely beginnings of navicular. 


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> In a couple of different threads recently I have been prompted to think about the question above with regard to past companion animals, my current dogs and even people I have loved.
> I have also read here about people who treated dogs that suffered with severe mental and physical consequences of chronic illness for years. That seems selfish to me. If I had an animal that was suffering on a constant daily basis I would want to free it from its suffering.



You know Catherine, when I read your whole post, I had no idea that you were apparently referring to me with the above statement. That is, not until I read your post on the OTHER thread. I'm a little slow, and it's taking me time to catch on, but I finally got there. You know, I really take a offense that you're implying that I was selfish. No, you didn't say any names, but I'm smart enough to know that you were talking about me. You really should know facts about someone and the full situation about their dog, before going around and implying that the animal was suffering on a constant daily basis. How dare you? Seriously. 

Trina NEVER suffered on a daily basis. Next time, instead of believing the worst about how someone is taking care of their dog, maybe you should be a little more open- minded, and ask QUESTIONS before you make such a bad judgement call. Wow!!


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## Streetcar

I set free a feral cat with nasal cancer whom I had been feeding until I could capture her. After learning she had the cancer and seeing with my own eyes how she could not become comfortable with an inside life, I asked my wonderful vet to euthanize her. He was not confident she would not return to ask my help when things got too bad, but may God condemn or thank me, it was my decision alone to do what I could to guarantee she felt no anguish from the pain of cancer eating away her nasal cavity.

A friend answered the call to aid a feral cat in absolute agony from nasal cancer. He allowed himself to be captured and fed a last meal before agreeing to be taken for to help. He was so far gone, and my friend went through the horrid situation of animal control first believing she herself had allowed the situation to happen. Finally, she was able to clarify, and the poor suffering cat was allowed his release. No human or feral should have to go that far.

Kassie, you are strong and will not break. Kopper will run free, pain free, when you set him loose from his earthly bounds. Yes, I know the feeling of the moment, but through the decisions to set them free from pain and feebleness, I believe we can be agents of mercy, as are our veterinarians.


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## Poodlemanic

I think as a farmer lines are more clear in a way; we slaughter animals for food but they live a very happy, carefree life until that day. They don't know their lives are destined for someone's dinner table, so they're happy. And we enjoy raising them, even though we know their end; we love to see how glossy and healthy they are, and how the calves frolic in the meadows together and how they make best friends with some other calves. However when it comes to pets, it's always way harder. What we do is get a sedative from the vet so that our beloved pet is sleepy and cuddling in our arms on the way to the vet for the final shot; all they know is that they are loved and cared for to the end. For us, it's much harder!!! I said to my husband the last time, maybe we should get a sedative from our doctor for after! It's very hard, but that's life when you make yourself responsible for living beings who live a shorter life span than you do. You try to make their lives happy and full until the day that it's no longer possible. Then you have to be responsible and make that last decision because you love them, and they depend on us to provide for them, even when it's hard. Even though it's harder than anything else! We enjoy the fun times, it's only fair that we do the best thing in the hard times.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> I know there are people here who have or have had dogs with seizures. For a dog that simply needs medication and takes it with no big deal then the quality of days is clearly there. For any dog that is so fragile that the whole household spends every day walking on egg shells so as not to upset the dog I think one has to ask if that dog is experiencing a quality of life that is good enough to continue. Each of us will have our own answer to that question, but we are the responsible parties in these relationships. We need to put on our "big girl panties" and make the fair decision for the dog, cat, horse or other loved companion.


Catherine, stop beating around the bush. 

Hey, here is a shocker for you. ...Trina had a VERY good life with Fred and I. I would have never EVER allowed ANY animal to suffer in my care. And if you're going to continue to make reference to her or myself, then I'm going to be right behind you, cutting you down each and every time!! 

I mean, really! How dare you?!! You're making it out like she was constantly suffering, and she absolutely was NOT. And I don't appreciate you even implying otherwise! If you are going to be so closed minded and not ask questions, and give someone a chance to explain, before making such a horrible judgement call, then you're no better than someone else that I'm thinking of. My God, this hurts like Hell. How dare you even imply that?!!

Yes, Trina's mental state was fragile. Yes, she would get scared easily if there was a loud shrieking noise, and yes, absolutely, she had a lot of seizures over the course of her lifetime. And yes, absolutely, she had some mental problems. And yes, we wanted to keep things nice and quiet for her, and we CHOSE ( GET THAT, we CHOSE) to walk on eggshells, so as to help her not go into seizure mode. Phenobarbital and Potassium Bromide helped keep the seizures at bay, but yes, there were times that she had some real bad ones. Other times, she would go 6 or even 7 months without any seizures. 

BTW, Did you ever ask me if she ever went any length of time without having any seizures? Did you ever ask me if she had any good days in those 14 years? Did you ever ask me if she enjoyed going on walks? If you asked me any of those things BEFORE making your judgement call, then I apologize. I must have missed your questions.


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## oshagcj914

Absolutely quality over quantity. I mostly work in home health care, but I see some hospice patients too. As hard as it is watching them decline, it's even worse watching a patient (or more often their family) aggressively pursuing treatment that will ultimately do no good and often causes their final days to be spent in suffering, at doctors' offices or in the hospital instead of at home with their family. Sometimes it kills me that we can choose to end our pets' suffering and it's considered a kindness, but we don't have that option for ourselves or our family members. Get your advanced directives filled out, folks.


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## Caddy

TrixieTreasure please don't feel hurt, I can't imagine that lily cd re or anyone, would be talking badly about you regarding such a sensitive situation. Awhile back I thought some had said something negative about me and was hurt, until others here pointed out to me that I'd taken it wrong and jumped to the wrong conclusion.


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## TrixieTreasure

Caddy said:


> TrixieTreasure please don't feel hurt, I can't imagine that lily cd re or anyone, would be talking badly about you regarding such a sensitive situation. Awhile back I thought some had said something negative about me and was hurt, until others here pointed out to me that I'd taken it wrong and jumped to the wrong conclusion.


Thank you Caddy, and I do appreciate that, and I remember that situation, and how upset you were.

Please know that I'm not disrespecting your post in any way. But I do have to say, in this case, I KNOW what's going on,, and I KNOW who she's referring to. But thanks, you're very sweet to be concerned for me.


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## MollyMuiMa

Coming from a family background of 'farmers' (g-parents on both sides) both my Father and Mother dealt with the death of loved animals in the vein of 'respect of life'.......no animal should suffer whether it is a meat animal or a pet. That belief was passed on to all us kids and quality of life over quantity was always at the forefront.
Many times when I was a Tech I witnessed animals suffer, doped up shadows of themselves, because a owner could not let go.........it broke my heart many times and I cried.... not for the owner, but for the animal.


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## Caddy

Although I would always choose quality over quantity, I hope never to be in the position of making that choice again. Unrealistic I know, but after making the decision about my Dad with my Mom and siblings, and then with my siblings over our Mom, and several dogs over the years, I just don't want that responsibility and heartache anymore. Of course I would step up for the people and dogs I love, but it gets harder everytime I'm faced with it. Although it just occurred to me that it should get harder, and would hopefully never get easier.


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## N2Mischief

lily cd re said:


> BK I know this puts me on a slippery slope, but I wish that people could make a decision for themselves in advance of suffering to be allowed to end their lives with dignity and the assistance of an appropriate care provider (we do better for our animals in this area to a great extent).


California recently passed law allowing this. I think it is wonderful!


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## Viking Queen

As you all know, I had to make that difficult decision to let my dear Iris go just 10 weeks ago. While it was terribly hard I had made the decision months ago that I would not hang on to her and do any extraordinary measures just to keep her here for my sake. I had watched a relative keep a cat alive for a couple of years longer than I would have. He was alive but not having any quality of life, going from painful crisis to painful crisis.

In the end, the day I let Iris go I had a frank discussion with my vet who said he could offer her pain meds and some other care to keep her a bit longer. I said, no, that would be selfish to do. He thanked me for that and said he wished more of his clients felt that way rather than prolong suffering. 

In the end we held her together, said sweet things in her ear and wept together when she was gone. It was the kindest thing I could do, considering all the unconditional love and trust she had given to me.

I still miss her terribly but it was my responsibility to make sure she left me with as little pain and suffering as was possible. I think I did that.

Kassi, my heart is with you in this most difficult time.

Cathy


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## TrixieTreasure

Kassie said:


> This is why I find this decision so tormenting. If it was a dog with sore inflamed feet, I would find a way to manage the pain, if it were possible. But a horse, no feet no horse. Kopper was a stallion when I showed him. A grand champion in the heart, he went on as a 5 year old to become Canadian champion cutting horse beating out horses 10 years his senior. He went on to win the nationals in the US and every competition he was ever in. I pulled him from the ring when he was 10 as by then, he was so stoic, the only way we knew he was in pain is how he'd move his shoulder or hindquarters. He was under intense veterinarian care for performance and pain management then. He was dynamic and unbeatable. The partnership, would take chapters to share what that was like. He let me manage him and rise him to high earnings and championships even though he was a stallion and I am only 5"4. I just don't know how to say farewell when his mind is bright and alert I feel humbled, broken and haunting. A horse with the relationship he and I have, his intuition is highly developed. He will know. I will stand with him even though I have heard euthanizing a horse is traumatic. But I can not bear not to be at his side. I hate myself already. To not be there would be cowardly. It's my responsibility and I want to be there till his body falls, even though I surely will break. Perhaps, when I recover, I will write a tribute and post some of his stunning performance photos. Be blessed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Kassie, I'm so sorry that you're having to go through such agony. My thoughts and prayers are with you. :-(

Speaking about being with, or not being with a beloved pet, at the end of their life, it's a very individual choice. No one should ever fault a person who decides not to be with their pet, and it's definitely not cowardly. For me personally, I need to be there. I need to be there, holding them, talking to them, and I want my voice to be the last thing that they hear. It hurts like no other hurt, but for me, it's part of the heeling process. One has to hurt, in order to eventually heel.

God Bless you while you face these difficult times.


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## TrixieTreasure

TrixieTreasure said:


> Kassie, I'm so sorry that you're having to go through such agony. My thoughts and prayers are with you. :-(
> 
> it's part of the heeling process. One has to hurt, in order to eventually heel.
> 
> .


I just reread this. I meant heal ( not heel). I can't believe I did it twice.


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## lily cd re

TrixieTreasure said:


> You know Catherine, when I read your whole post, I had no idea that you were apparently referring to me with the above statement. That is, not until I read your post on the OTHER thread. I'm a little slow, and it's taking me time to catch on, but I finally got there. You know, I really take a offense that you're implying that I was selfish. * No, you didn't say any names, but I'm smart enough to know that you were talking about me.* You really should know facts about someone and the full situation about their dog, before going around and implying that the animal was suffering on a constant daily basis. How dare you? Seriously.
> 
> Trina NEVER suffered on a daily basis. Next time, instead of believing the worst about how someone is taking care of their dog, maybe you should be a little more open- minded, and ask QUESTIONS before you make such a bad judgement call. Wow!!



Actually I was thinking about a person who had tried to rehabilitate a rescue dog with no positive results and eventually had the dog PTS when I said what I did. TT you are the one who brought yourself into this discussion and then yes it did seem appropriate to respond to your comments. You opened this can of worms for yourself.... It was a hard, but nice and interesting discussion until you made it personal.


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## ericwd9

TrixieTreasure said:


> I just reread this. I meant heal ( not heel). I can't believe I did it twice.


When you are hurting yourself and empathizing with another's hurts, it is hard to remain objective and heal the heels. Most all of us have been there at some time or another.

Eric


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## Mfmst

Always quality of life over any suffering. Our last dog, a 14 year old Scottie, was given a diagnosis of bone cancer. The course of treatment would be amputation, chemo and radiation for possibly 6 months longer with us. We were shocked. I was expecting luxating patella, not cancer with such a dismal outcome. I had tears leaking out of my eyes and asked the vet what he would do if Charlie were his dog. He said he would go forward with the treatment. Fair enough, I asked him, but now think he should have deflected his own opinion and directed a discussion of quality of life. That is exactly what my husband and I discussed when the vet left the room. We had him PTS. I have no regrets that we spared him from any further stress or pain. It is important to think about this topic and be prepared before it happens.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> Actually I was thinking about a person who had tried to rehabilitate a rescue dog with no positive results and eventually had the dog PTS when I said what I did. TT you are the one who brought yourself into this discussion and then yes it did seem appropriate to respond to your comments. You opened this can of worms for yourself.... It was a hard, but nice and interesting discussion until you made it personal.



lily cd re, you KNOW there were no cans of worms to open until YOU made it personal. CB and I were having a perfectly good debate and discussion going on, on the other thread, until, out of the blue, you had to get your digs in because of how Trina was raised. The very second you said Trina's name in reference to her mental state and seizures, you MADE it personal. And don't try to get out of it just because you also brought a lot of other topics into it, here, and on the other thread. It was the sneaky way you did it. A normal and compassionate person would have been interested in how my husband and I went about helping Trina, in order for her to have the best life possible. A normal and compassionate person would have asked QUESTIONS, instead of jumping to conclusions. 

The thing that really gets to me is, in all of the years that the people on the AOL boards were saying about how fat Trina was, and all of the other slams they said about how I raised Trina, they never ONCE said ( or even implied), that they thought I should have let Trina go and out of her misery. In fact, a lot of people shared my joy of when Trina had gone 1, 2, 3, and then even more months without having a seizure, and then were sad for me for when she finally had them again. At least those people were open in trying to understand what life was like living with a dog with epilepsy. But with you, you just jumped to your own conclusions, without even "trying" to understand that there was more to Trina's life than just having bad seizures. In fact, what I'm doing right now is trying really hard to understand why a college professor would do such a thing, without getting all of the facts first.


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## glorybeecosta

I must have missed something I did not get the impression anyone was pointing to anyone particular. 

I for one kept Tina my 19.5 yer old to long. She was blind, could not hear, ate and slept. Never messed in the house, but what kind of a life did she have and she was so active until about 18 months before I put her down. I came home one day and found blood on the potty patch in her stool, and friends had been saying to put her down. Her front feet and back feet almost touched and her back had become bowed up. I was selfish. never again


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## TrixieTreasure

glorybeecosta said:


> I must have missed something I did not get the impression anyone was pointing to anyone particular.
> 
> I for one kept Tina my 19.5 yer old to long. She was blind, could not hear, ate and slept. Never messed in the house, but what kind of a life did she have and she was so active until about 18 months before I put her down. I came home one day and found blood on the potty patch in her stool, and friends had been saying to put her down. Her front feet and back feet almost touched and her back had become bowed up. I was selfish. never again


The pointing actually was started on another thread. In the original post on this thread, it was implied ( although there were no actual names being used). However, anyone who was keeping up with the other thread would be able to, "read between the lines". 


Glory, I think we've all been there, keeping our pets alive when we should have let them go. It's nothing to be ashamed of. As human beings, we love deeply, and sometimes, we don't always see what others see. I learned that hard lesson when I kept my Poodle, Trixie, for too long, when I should have listened to my husband and my vet. That was in 1998, and afterwards, I felt horrible that I didn't let her go with dignity. She died on her own, in my arms, and seeing her take that deep breath in, and throwing up her water, that will now be forever in my mind. I was also selfish. After that, I vowed never, NEVER, again.


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## lily cd re

Mfmst said:


> Always quality of life over any suffering. Our last dog, a 14 year old Scottie, was given a diagnosis of bone cancer. The course of treatment would be amputation, chemo and radiation for possibly 6 months longer with us. We were shocked. I was expecting luxating patella, not cancer with such a dismal outcome. I had tears leaking out of my eyes and asked the vet what he would do if Charlie were his dog. He said he would go forward with the treatment. Fair enough, I asked him, but now think he should have deflected his own opinion and directed a discussion of quality of life. That is exactly what my husband and I discussed when the vet left the room. We had him PTS. I have no regrets that we spared him from any further stress or pain. It is important to think about this topic and be prepared before it happens.


Mfmst, my brother's family just had a similar situation with one of their dogs. She was a 6 year old lab mix who started with some lameness that turned out to be cancer. She had a hind leg amputated, but they did not do any chemotherapy or radiation. She was happy and comfortable (didn't miss a step after the amputation) until she started to have shortness of breath near Christmas. She died at home just after new year's lying in my younger niece's lap. I suspect if it had been me and my dog I would not have put her through the amputation, but done nothing until it was clear her quality of life was suffering (which may have been when the diagnosis was made).

I do certainly recognize that different people will make different decisions and that there are many variations that are all acceptable about how to proceed. That diversity of views is why the discussion is important to have. Clearly some of us are in the throes of acutely difficult decision making and others are looking back on those kinds of times. Each family has to operate in their own comfort zone. I certainly did not intend to convey that anyone's decision making was wrong (and I am sorry that some posters seem to have perceived that to be the case), but I do think all of us are entitled to say that we would have handled something differently if faced with a challenging situation. No one was compelled to post here, or anywhere else. I am finding it to be an interesting discussion despite some drama.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> Mfmst, my brother's family just had a similar situation with one of their dogs. She was a 6 year old lab mix who started with some lameness that turned out to be cancer. She had a hind leg amputated, but they did not do any chemotherapy or radiation. She was happy and comfortable (didn't miss a step after the amputation) until she started to have shortness of breath near Christmas. She died at home just after new year's lying in my younger niece's lap. I suspect if it had been me and my dog I would not have put her through the amputation, but done nothing until it was clear her quality of life was suffering (which may have been when the diagnosis was made).
> 
> I do certainly recognize that different people will make different decisions and that there are many variations that are all acceptable about how to proceed. That diversity of views is why the discussion is important to have. Clearly some of us are in the throes of acutely difficult decision making and others are looking back on those kinds of times. Each family has to operate in their own comfort zone. I certainly did not intend to convey that anyone's decision making was wrong (and I am sorry that some posters seem to have perceived that to be the case), but I do think all of us are entitled to say that we would have handled something differently if faced with a challenging situation. No one was compelled to post here, or anywhere else. I am finding it to be an interesting discussion despite some drama.


Thank you Catherine for saying that. An apology was all I needed. 

Yes, we should all be able to share what we would do in different situations. I would just appreciate it that if anyone wonders about my decisions on how I raise ( raised) my dogs, that they come to me and talk to me about it, share their concerns with me, and then give me a chance to explain how it REALLY is, before they actually place any kind of judgement on me.
Just please know that Trina did have a good life right until the end. She didn't pass away because of the seizures. Her organs were shutting down, and I knew it was time to let her go. I'm thankful though that she did have a lot of wonderful years with Fred and I.


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## lily cd re

TrixieTreasure said:


> Thank you Catherine for saying that. An apology was all I needed.
> 
> Yes, we should all be able to share what we would do in different situations. I would just appreciate it that if anyone wonders about my decisions on how I raise ( raised) my dogs, that they come to me and talk to me about it, share their concerns with me, and then give me a chance to explain how it REALLY is, before they actually place any kind of judgement on me.
> Just please know that Trina did have a good life right until the end. She didn't pass away because of the seizures. Her organs were shutting down, and I knew it was time to let her go. I'm thankful though that she did have a lot of wonderful years with Fred and I.


I never judged you. That is how you took what I said. For the record (since other people may not know what you are referring to), here is what I said in that other thread. "Obviously *you made a different choice than I would have* with Trina. I think *the right thing for me* had I the same situation would have been to free her from her suffering long before she was so compromised. You don't really need to defend yourself or reply to my POV, *Trina is in the past and I hope you have many more happy memories of her than can be imagined by me based on your description of her here. We will just have to disagree on this point as we are all going to have our own opinions informed by our own experiences*." Bold added to emphasize what was actually said.

My apology was for your misunderstanding of what I had said, not for what I said. I always think very carefully about what I am about to post before I hit submit reply. I still stand by my post in that other thread. If you are offended by what I say, unless I have cursed you out, called you something derogatory or otherwise defamed you then that is on you and your perceptions. Don't read anything I say if you think you will be hurt by it. 

If you perceive this to have all been to take a dig at you you are wrong. It was an opportunity to talk about a challenging topic. You chose to come over here and make it all about you. Again, all I did was to say that I would have made a different decision regarding Trina (and in a different thread) and I made that statement based on you having said this about her in that other thread. "Any dog who is mentally unstable, who jumps and screams when pans are accidentally dropped, when doors get slammed, or TV is too loud, ( and has many times gone into a seizure because of it), is not a dog that you want to force anything with. I was more than happy to walk on eggshells with Trina, just to make sure that her life stayed as calmly as possible." You put that information out there and I guess my perception of what her life experience was like was incorrect. That is my problem, not anyone other person's responsibility.

Here is the thread where all of this started. You all can read and decide for yourselves whether I judged the person to whom I just responded. http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/211185-feeding-meds.html


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## StormeeK

I have thought in advance about this and have determined that the best way, if possible, is to have the vet come to our home. We did this with a previous dog and it was sad but peaceful. We were able to bury her on the property.

What is the most difficult for me is a situation where the dog ( or animal) is still young but has a very good chance of not having the same quality of life due to an extreme situation. A few years ago we had a young great dane ( our 3rd one and the others had lived long healthy lives ) that was misdiagnosed by our vet. When I picked her up from the clinic after being told she was fine I immediately knew she was not and took her to the emergency vet. Within a short period this vet told us after looking at xrays and bloodwork her prognosis was poor even with emergency surgery. She said if it were her dog she would not put her through it. My first thought was of course I will do anything to save her life. When you are in this emotional situation and must make a decision it is very hard. I remember thinking how I had looked out the window that morning and watched how beautiful she was running across the fields then 8 hours later I was here needing to make a decision. My husband was with me and we knew she was the type of dog that would be stressed and miserable for a long time even if she made it through the surgery. We laid on the floor with her while they put her to sleep. We both cried for months but never regretted the decision. 

Thinking of you tomorrow, Kassie.


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## lily cd re

StormeeK I understand how hard that was to lose your Dane so out of the blue. Many years ago I thought I might have to say goodbye to one of my cats because I thought she had a spinal cord injury. I was graced by good luck and it was her knee. She has many great years afterwards.

Kassie, I will be standing next to you in spirit tomorrow and you can cry on my shoulder if you need to.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> I never judged you. That is how you took what I said. For the record (since other people may not know what you are referring to), here is what I said in that other thread. "Obviously *you made a different choice than I would have* with Trina. I think *the right thing for me* had I the same situation would have been to free her from her suffering long before she was so compromised. You don't really need to defend yourself or reply to my POV, *Trina is in the past and I hope you have many more happy memories of her than can be imagined by me based on your description of her here. We will just have to disagree on this point as we are all going to have our own opinions informed by our own experiences*." Bold added to emphasize what was actually said
> My apology was for your misunderstanding of what I had said, not for what I said. I always think very carefully about what I am about to post before I hit submit reply. I still stand by my post in that other thread. If you are offended by what I say, unless I have cursed you out, called you something derogatory or otherwise defamed you then that is on you and your perceptions. Don't read anything I say if you think you will be hurt by it.
> 
> If you perceive this to have all been to take a dig at you you are wrong. It was an opportunity to talk about a challenging topic. You chose to come over here and make it all about you. Again, all I did was to say that I would have made a different decision regarding Trina (and in a different thread) and I made that statement based on you having said this about her in that other thread. "Any dog who is mentally unstable, who jumps and screams when pans are accidentally dropped, when doors get slammed, or TV is too loud, ( and has many times gone into a seizure because of it), is not a dog that you want to force anything with. I was more than happy to walk on eggshells with Trina, just to make sure that her life stayed as calmly as possible." You put that information out there and I guess my perception of what her life experience was like was incorrect. That is my problem, not anyone other person's responsibility.
> 
> Here is the thread where all of this started. You all can read and decide for yourselves whether I judged the person to whom I just responded. http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/211185-feeding-meds.html


When you said " to free her from her suffering long before she was so compromised", that was a DIRECT hit and slam toward me as a pet owner! THAT is when you made it personal. I considered that a very personal attack on how I took care of my dog. I NEVER said that she was suffering. Just because Trina was mentally unstable from her seizures, just because we walked on eggshells, just because dropping pans on the floor startled her, just because she would jump when doors were slammed or the TV was awfully loud, DID NOT MEAN that her life was suffering. 

Instead of asking me if Trina was "suffering" , you decided on your own that these things happened every day of her life. They didn't. Those things only happened when she was in clustering seizures and that's when things would startled her. I didn't think I had to explain Trina's whole life to anyone since the topic was suppose to be about how to get pills in a dog. All I wanted to do was explain that a dog who is mentally unstable is NOT a dog that you would want to force open their mouth to get a pill in when there are more effective ways to do it. 

Yes, you were wrong in your assumption of how Trina lead her life, and I 'm glad that you at least admitted that part. Of course if you would have opened your mind up far enough in the first place and just ASKED me if her life was suffering, I would have explained, and that would have been the end of it right then.

Just remember, sometimes when people assume something, and they don't ask for clarification, that can make for a lot of misunderstandings. As it did here.


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## oshagcj914

Maybe the side discussion could be better handled via private message instead of on this thread. The forum is getting a little ridiculous with people fighting lately.


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## lily cd re

oshagcj914 said:


> Maybe the side discussion could be better handled via private message instead of on this thread. The forum is getting a little ridiculous with people fighting lately.


I personally am totally done with the side discussion as I thought I explained to the offended party. I suggested that she should ignore me if she didn't like what I had to say. I suggest that again now. The last two times I tried to have PM conversations with folks here I had one person curse at me and defame me and beat on my dogs to harass me in every thread I was active in until she was banned. In the process she broke forum rules by revealing the contents of the private messages without my permission. Another person told me I shouldn't PM people because nobody should be saying anything secret (I was going to give the address for a place I train to another local person, not something I thought the world would care about). So no PMs for me to settle a dispute that I didn't start.

And I hate to say it, but this is tame stuff compared to some of the past fighting that has gone on. I would be happy to see fighting disappear, but strongly defend the position that we do not all have to agree with each other. 

My real desire in this thread was to have an open discussion of how to make end of life care decisions for our dogs. My GSD will be eight years old in October, so he is a senior. He has had urinary crystals, cystitis and has benign prostate disease. Whereas last year we were looking at breeding him, now I look at him as an old guy with issues that have to be managed and plans to be made so we aren't left with being in disagreement about what to do for him if and when any of his problems worsen. I appreciate the thoughts of all of you who have contributed meaningfully to this conversation. I know it hasn't been easy for some us to think and talk about past or impending losses of well loved companions.


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## TrixieTreasure

oshagcj914 said:


> Maybe the side discussion could be better handled via private message instead of on this thread. The forum is getting a little ridiculous with people fighting lately.


In other cases, I would agree, but this is how " I" feel... 
When someone starts a thread ( as they did here), and they make a "sneak attack" on someone( meaning they are attacking someone in a subtle type of way but not using any names), by insinuating that the person is selfish, that COULD be taken as a direct slam ( depending on how the person sees it), and the other person has a right to respond to that. If the OP on this thread wanted to keep the thread as a "general" topic, they would not have brought up certain things in the original post.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> I personally am totally done with the side discussion as I thought I explained to the offended party. I suggested that she should ignore me if she didn't like what I had to say. I suggest that again now. The last two times I tried to have PM conversations with folks here I had one person curse at me and defame me and beat on my dogs to harass me in every thread I was active in until she was banned. In the process she broke forum rules by revealing the contents of the private messages without my permission. Another person told me I shouldn't PM people because nobody should be saying anything secret (I was going to give the address for a place I train to another local person, not something I thought the world would care about). So no PMs for me to settle a dispute that I didn't start.
> 
> And I hate to say it, but this is tame stuff compared to some of the past fighting that has gone on. I would be happy to see fighting disappear, but strongly defend the position that we do not all have to agree with each other.
> 
> My real desire in this thread was to have an open discussion of how to make end of life care decisions for our dogs. My GSD will be eight years old in October, so he is a senior. He has had urinary crystals, cystitis and has benign prostate disease. Whereas last year we were looking at breeding him, now I look at him as an old guy with issues that have to be managed and plans to be made so we aren't left with being in disagreement about what to do for him if and when any of his problems worsen. I appreciate the thoughts of all of you who have contributed meaningfully to this conversation. I know it hasn't been easy for some us to think and talk about past or impending losses of well loved companions.



Well then all you have to do is keep the topic "general", if you don't want people to confront what you've said. Everyone does have a right to their opinion, but even though you have a right to do so, that doesn't make it right to do it. I learned that myself after Plum told it to me.


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## zooeysmom

If you don't like the thread, then don't participate. I'm sick of people telling others to stop fighting. It comes across as holier than thou.


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## Streetcar

Lily, quoting just this about your wonderful Peeves:
"'He has had urinary crystals, cystitis and has benign prostate disease.'"

My cat had crystals, almost completely blocked, but I caught it by seeing him visit the litter box twice in 5 minutes. It was of course after hours, but I was dressed and out the door with him in under 20 minutes. Thank Heavens I still had a car then. Ultimately, I did have to get him the PU surgery, and my veterinarian did a brilliant job. Perfection.

However, with a cat and a not uncommon issue it's one thing. I think for a large dog Peeves' size it is on another scale. While yes, my cat's issue was without question a life and death issue, with Care Credit's assistance I managed it. ETA: I have sworn I will never again bring in a male cat without purchasing insurance.

Had it not been my cat but a large dog, I may have made another choice if things had gotten as severe as they did with my boy (and Peeves has not gotten there). You all have caught this early with Peeves and have a good medical approach. I will say that for about a year I fed my cat prescription Royal Canine Cat Rx urinary food, and believe it helped a LOT. So while you may not like the idea and it would upset the household feeding arrangement, it could be something to consider for a time. No, it's not the quality and the coat suffers a bit, but it took care of things here. These days I free feed Wysong Uretic kibble to help though try to make canned the main part of his diet. That could be another option as I imagine Wysong offers a dog urologic formula as well.


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## lily cd re

Streetcar said:


> Lily, quoting just this about your wonderful Peeves:
> "'He has had urinary crystals, cystitis and has benign prostate disease.'"
> 
> My cat had crystals, almost completely blocked, but I caught it by seeing him visit the litter box twice in 5 minutes. It was of course after hours, but I was dressed and out the door with him in under 20 minutes. Thank Heavens I still had a car then. Ultimately, I did have to get him the PU surgery, and my veterinarian did a brilliant job. Perfection.
> 
> However, with a cat and a not uncommon issue it's one thing. I think for a large dog Peeves' size it is on another scale. While yes, my cat's issue was without question a life and death issue, with Care Credit's assistance I managed it. ETA: I have sworn I will never again bring in a male cat without purchasing insurance.
> 
> Had it not been my cat but a large dog, I may have made another choice if things had gotten as severe as they did with my boy (and Peeves has not gotten there). You all have caught this early with Peeves and have a good medical approach. I will say that for about a year I fed my cat prescription Royal Canine Cat Rx urinary food, and believe it helped a LOT. So while you may not like the idea and it would upset the household feeding arrangement, it could be something to consider for a time. No, it's not the quality and the coat suffers a bit, but it took care of things here. These days I free feed Wysong Uretic kibble to help though try to make canned the main part of his diet. That could be another option as I imagine Wysong offers a dog urologic formula as well.


Actually Streetcar I am glad you mentioned the prescription or other diet change for Peeves. Since I will be leaving the dogs in separate spaces in the house going forward I could give Peeves a different food. I will have to think about that and talk with BF and vet since changing diets with a GSD can be tricky. They tend to have sensitive GI tracts. The one and only time I changed foods it took six months because of Peeves. For Lily I could have changed all at once and she would have been fine, but he had problems (think messy) every time I changed the ratio of old to new. This situation might warrant that change.


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## Streetcar

Lily, no idea if it could help, but it could potentially offer some benefit, although I totally understand about the issue of sensitive stomachs and problems in making dietary changes. That alone could preclude it. My cat's coat is its normal great quality with use of the Uretic, so the food probably helps to some extent but not as much as an Rx food would. For me, it's a bit of a safety net and I can't offer you any science particular to my experience to justify going with it. I also give him a lovely paste (not Wysong) that supports healthy urinary tract function a couple times a week and play in the water stream from the faucet with him to get him to drink more .

Wysong does have its Biotic pH- and pH+ supplements to assist with crystals: Cat / Dog Vitamins and Supplements by Wysong . I'm not trying to prescribe or override a vet, of course. Also as you no doubt know, taking a remedy too far in one direction for crystals can help cause the opposite type, so it's a balance. One can't just go all out in a single direction but rather has to balance. I've not bought those strips to test the pH of his urine, but may need to one day.


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## kmart

As per the original post: 

I have a friend who's dog was attacked by anther dog. The dog that was attacked would be considered a "senior." The dog ended up needing emergency surgery and had some serious complications. The vet said they needed more surgeries and meds and the dog was not doing well staying at the vet- not eating or drinking on her own. 

So my friend decided to bring her home and keep her on pain meds and had resigned herself after a lot of thought and heartache to letting the dog go. She had a holistic vet visit every day to give her fluids and make sure her pain was being managed. Then suggested a few natural treatments to make her last days more bearable. 

That was months ago and now the dog is thriving! She's doing absolutely amazingly. She had one small surgery to re-close a wound (the vet that did it originally didn't do a great job, probably because he assumed the dog wouldn't live another 48 hours). The pressure to euthanize her was definitely there. We all didn't think it was worth putting her through more surgeries and leaving her at the vet. 

That's been making me rethink the whole thing. I'm going to eventually have to make this decision for a pet. I'm 100% in the boat of quality over quantity... but what about the quantity of less-than-quality leading to quality? My friend could have easily had her dog pts. I honestly might have. But I'm sure glad she didn't. 
I mean, wasting away of old age is one thing, but illness and injury are another. I think really you're the only one who knows your pet and whether or not they should keep struggling on.


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## Mfmst

I think it's important to have these discussions on our forum. I know it's a very painful subject and that we all try to do our level best for our fur family members. I wish that I had known about at home euthanasia options when it was Charlie's time. I first heard about that on PF and it will be an option in the future. My sister's vet had a useful benchmark which was when your pet can no longer do his three favorite things, his quality of life has been compromised. I am always so humbled by how stoic dogs are with pain, disinterest in favorite pastimes is likely pain related.


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## oshagcj914

Mfmst said:


> I think it's important to have these discussions on our forum. I know it's a very painful subject and that we all try to do our level best for our fur family members. I wish that I had known about at home euthanasia options when it was Charlie's time. I first heard about that on PF and it will be an option in the future. My sister's vet had a useful benchmark which was when your pet can no longer do his three favorite things, his quality of life has been compromised. I am always so humbled by how stoic dogs are with pain, disinterest in favorite pastimes is likely pain related.


Afaik, home euthanasia is not always an option. My vet does not do it for many reasons, including too much time away from the clinic (he's the only vet there), issues with possible reactions to the medications used - like the dose he has along isn't enough and there's no more immediately available, some legal issues with transporting those drugs, etc. Just something to discuss with your vet way ahead of time so you know if it's an option or not. It would be preferable, but not an option for me unless I switch vets


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## TrixieTreasure

kmart said:


> As per the original post:
> 
> I have a friend who's dog was attacked by anther dog. The dog that was attacked would be considered a "senior." The dog ended up needing emergency surgery and had some serious complications. The vet said they needed more surgeries and meds and the dog was not doing well staying at the vet- not eating or drinking on her own.
> 
> So my friend decided to bring her home and keep her on pain meds and had resigned herself after a lot of thought and heartache to letting the dog go. She had a holistic vet visit every day to give her fluids and make sure her pain was being managed. Then suggested a few natural treatments to make her last days more bearable.
> 
> That was months ago and now the dog is thriving! She's doing absolutely amazingly. She had one small surgery to re-close a wound (the vet that did it originally didn't do a great job, probably because he assumed the dog wouldn't live another 48 hours). The pressure to euthanize her was definitely there. We all didn't think it was worth putting her through more surgeries and leaving her at the vet.
> 
> That's been making me rethink the whole thing. I'm going to eventually have to make this decision for a pet. I'm 100% in the boat of quality over quantity... but what about the quantity of less-than-quality leading to quality? My friend could have easily had her dog pts. I honestly might have. But I'm sure glad she didn't.
> I mean, wasting away of old age is one thing, but illness and injury are another. I think really you're the only one who knows your pet and whether or not they should keep struggling on.



Oh my gosh, wow, what a story! I'm SO glad your friend decided to wait a bit longer! And now to find that the dog is thriving, that is truly amazing! 

As I was reading this story, I had flashbacks on when I almost let Trina go when she was just 2 years old, because of all of the seizures she was having. It killed me to see her like that, and I resigned myself to setting her free. It was 2001, and I remember so well that my husband and I were on the living room floor, along with Trina, and we were saying our goodbyes. I told our vet that we would be in within the hour, and so they knew we were coming. We were almost ready to leave the house when something strong came over me. It was SO strong, that I had to take a deep breath and stop and think for a moment. It's weird, and it's hard to explain, but something very strong inside of me was telling me not to do it. So instead of dismissing those feelings, I called our vet's office, and actually was able to speak to our vet, and told him that I just couldn't go through with it. He suggested to me that we up her meds to a higher level, and to come in to get some rectal Valium to help stop the clustering seizures. That's what we did, and it's stopped the seizures! It did take Trina about 24 hrs to fully recover and start acting normal again, but at least we FINALLY got it under control.

I'm SO thankful that we didn't go through with it, because although Trina continued having seizures throughout her lifetime ( and yes, sometimes she did still had bad ones), at least we were able to control them with Phenobarbital and Potassium Bromide 3 times a day, plus give rectal Valium when necessary. 

She had a good long life and when we did finally have to let her go in 2013 at the age of almost 14 years old, I was comforted in the fact that at least she didn't die from seizures. Her organs were shutting down, and it was her time. 

So, I say to people, listen to your inner self, and if you're hesitating for even just a moment on whether or not you should do it, maybe you should just sit back, and think about it some more. If there is truly no hope, then yes, it might be the best to let them go. But then, on the other hand, it might be the best to continue trying for them.


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## lily cd re

Injury is different than illness. I am not sure what I would have done with the dog discussed by kmart. I am glad that the dog is doing so well, but I would have had a very hard time bringing home a dog that had such bad injuries that one vet had given a grave prognosis. I am looking at my dogs right now and wondering how I would explain to one of them that they had to bear great pain and be restricted in activities.

Streetcar, Peeves has already had both types of crystals! It is quite the balancing act. Right now I am giving him a cranberry extract supplement made up into a "soup" with a couple of Primal raw freeze dried chicken nuggets and a lot of water to keep him well hydrated. I also just started giving him Nutri-Vet Bladder Control chewables 2X daily. The chewables have saw palmetto among other things so hopefully that will slow the progress of his prostate problems. When he is throwing crystals he has obvious hematuria along with some dripping/leaking and both of those issues have lessened significantly since I started this current regimen. I also collect urine from him once a week or so and put it in a clean centrifuge tube to see is there are obvious crystals or blood that settles out. I have pH test strips, but haven't used them yet. If I see hematuria I give him a dose of metacam as per my vet's instruction. The vets who have seen him on this both know that I am trying diet and other supplement management. I will keep your notes about possible additional diet changes close at hand.


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## TrixieTreasure

lily cd re said:


> Injury is different than illness. I am not sure what I would have done with the dog discussed by kmart. I am glad that the dog is doing so well, but I would have had a very hard time bringing home a dog that had such bad injuries that one vet had given a grave prognosis. I am looking at my dogs right now and wondering how I would explain to one of them that they had to bear great pain and be restricted in activities..



And that's why, when it comes to end of life decisions for our pets, it very much is an individual choice. Whether an owner decides that it's best to let their pet go so that it can be free of the pain, or if they decide that they want to keep trying for their pet, it's totally up to each individual owner. What you would do, or what I would do, when it comes to someone else's pet, doesn't matter. All that matters is that, as pet owners, we need to respect other people's decisions, and not judge them for the decision that they HAVE made.

As an example, if an owner decides to keep trying for their pet, that certainly doesn't mean that the owner is in any way selfish in that decision. I know that even if I thought someone was so totally wrong in what they were doing to keep their pet alive, I absolutely would not say, or indicate, or even imply, that I thought doing so was a very selfish thing on their part. If I wanted to think that, fine, but to actually say that I thought the person was selfish, would be very wrong on my part. It's none of my business to judge how another person is raising their pet. As pet owner's, we all have one very important thing in common, and that is, we all have our pet's best interest at heart. Unless someone is purposely abusing their pet, then I think it's important that we are all here for one another, in whatever decision that we have to make for our beloved animals.


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## zooeysmom

TrixieTreasure said:


> As an example, if an owner decides to keep trying for their pet, that certainly doesn't mean that the owner is in any way selfish in that decision.


That's an opinion. My aunt's dog had a brain tumor and she put him through hell when, in my opinion, he should have been released of his suffering. I thought my aunt was very selfish to keep him going. She regrets it to this day, about 25 years later. 

I think you have a very open mind and heart. I, however, freely admit to being judgmental.


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## TrixieTreasure

zooeysmom said:


> That's an opinion. My aunt's dog had a brain tumor and she put him through hell when, in my opinion, he should have been released of his suffering. I thought my aunt was very selfish to keep him going. She regrets it to this day, about 25 years later.
> 
> I think you have a very open mind and heart. I, however, freely admit to being judgmental.


Oh zooyeysmom, I totally understand what you're saying, and I actually do agree with you. All I know is that, even if I thought that person was VERY selfish in keeping their pet alive, I think it's wrong to let them know, or even just indicate, that I thought they were being selfish in doing so. In my opinion, pet owners don't need to hear that they were selfish in whatever decision they've had to make, or may have to make. They KNOW that whatever decision they are making may very well not be the right thing. In cases like that, I would try to encourage and share my feelings, but I would never actually say that they were selfish. That would be something that I would keep to myself.

And thank you for your kind words about me. . I will admit that sometimes I'm too sensitive about things, but personally, I believe in being as kind as possible to people. If by chance I do say something that may hurt someone's feelings, I try to do the right thing and apologize. Not because I thought I was wrong, but because I may have hurt their feelings.


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## zooeysmom

Gotcha, TT  I don't like to hurt people's feelings, either. But if we're having a general discussion, sure, I'll give my opinions.


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## Kassie

It's very hard and exceedingly painful to play the role of God and decide when life is no longer a blessing. It is imperative that a trusted veterinarian helps make the decisions. Having laid to rest 4 animals in the past 11 months, including a beloved and noble horse this morning, I strongly support having a vet stand by your side and assist with the ultimate decision of ending life or prolonging life.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caddy

Kassie, I don't really know what to say, but I'm sending you a big old hug.


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## lily cd re

Kassie I hope things went smoothly today. You've been much on my mind all day.


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## Mfmst

So sorry Kassie. I've been dreading that post.


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## StormeeK

Kassie, I've been thinking of you all day. Hope you are doing ok.


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## TrixieTreasure

Oh Kassie, I'm so, so very sorry :-( My thoughts and prayers are with you tonight.


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## Kassie

lily cd re said:


> Kassie I hope things went smoothly today. You've been much on my mind all day.




Thank you for your well wishes. I have an incredible vet. She explained what would happen and how it could go wrong and be hard to see. I was staying and I was helping. My great valiant horse left this world with the dignity and grace of how he lived every day of his life. It was surreal and My mind was not able to take it all in lest my heart shatter. Images flash in my mind. I will process in days to come. When he was layed to rest, I sat with him in the grass awaiting his ride to his final resting place. I will process this as I can. I am worried about Kopper's lifelong mate, a 22 year old sturdy yellow coloured quarter horse called Dudley. He was witness to his friend's passing, they have lived together for 10 years. I worry about him. I went to check on him a few hours later and he was anxiously pacing the fence line. My girlfriend who owns the farm, trusted dear Dudley and gave him her tall leggy 3 year old to babysit. Dudley is at peace with a big baby to share his paddock with. I've always used Dudley in his earlier years, to babysit the weanlings and pony the adolescent colts. He loves babies. I am relieved. Thank you all for caring. We think of our feelings, and then, we begin to notice how the loss affects all. Blessings everyone. 


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## zooeysmom

Kassie, I'm so sorry for your loss :'(


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## ericwd9

What has to be done, has to be done. It is the strong who do it. Be strong, all. We will all face these duties one day. It can never be easy and the heart heals slowly.
Eric


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## lily cd re

Eric you make a good point that the decisions to euthanize a companion animal are duties or responsibilities that we take on when we bring that animal into our lives. After my childhood dog died my dad decided he couldn't deal with that part of it again and never had another companion animal that was identified as his again. He didn't ever tell me or my mom not to have a pet, but the pets that came into our lives were mine and my mom's not my dads. We all have to be honest about whether we can deal with the end of the life just as we have to be honest about dealing with a crazy puppy.


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## TrixieTreasure

ericwd9 said:


> What has to be done, has to be done. It is the strong who do it. Be strong, all. We will all face these duties one day. It can never be easy and the heart heals slowly.
> Eric


Very well said Eric. 

Speaking of grief for a moment, for me, when I have to make that very hard and painful decision to put my beloved pet to sleep, it of course is emotionally difficult, but for some strange reason, I'm able to handle the grief okay, especially when the pet has lived a good and long life. The grief of course is still hard, but I am able to reflect back on all of the wonderful years that we have had together, and am able to get at least somewhat prepared for what is to come. 

But when a pet dies suddenly and unexpectedly , and I have not been able to have a chance to brace myself for the death, nor have the chance to say goodbye, the grief is 100 times worse. Sudden deaths is such an excruciateing experience, whether it's of a beloved pet, or if it's a human death, that you literally go numb, and cannot even function. And then it can take years to recover from it.


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## ericwd9

TrixieTreasure said:


> Very well said Eric.
> 
> Speaking of grief for a moment, for me, when I have to make that very hard and painful decision to put my beloved pet to sleep, it of course is emotionally difficult, but for some strange reason, I'm able to handle the grief okay, especially when the pet has lived a good and long life. The grief of course is still hard, but I am able to reflect back on all of the wonderful years that we have had together, and am able to get at least somewhat prepared for what is to come.
> 
> But when a pet dies suddenly and unexpectedly , and I have not been able to have a chance to brace myself for the death, nor have the chance to say goodbye, the grief is 100 times worse. Sudden deaths is such an excruciateing experience, whether it's of a beloved pet, or if it's a human death, that you literally go numb, and cannot even function. And then it can take years to recover from it.


One of the mainstays of grief counseling is to convince the griever, _*the life with the deceased or lost can be celebrated*_, rather than their death or loss mourned. This goes for loss in divorce and emigration too. People can change their lives or the place of living so drastically that they lose friends and family so completely, it is as if they had died. The grief is the same.
Eric


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## TrixieTreasure

ericwd9 said:


> One of the mainstays of grief counseling is to convince the griever, _*the life with the deceased or lost can be celebrated*_, rather than their death or loss mourned. This goes for loss in divorce and emigration too. People can change their lives or the place of living so drastically that they lose friends and family so completely, it is as if they had died. The grief is the same.
> Eric


I understand what you're saying. 

For me, as my pets get older, say to the age of 14 or 15, I realize that their end of life is getting nearer, and therefore I'm able to brace myself for what is to come. For instance, my cat, Mandee, lived to almost 19. She was my heart cat, and I will forever miss her. But since she was able to live a full, long, and happy life, when the time DID come, I was able to handle the loss a lot better, than if she had suddenly passed away at the age of 3 of unknown causes. 

For me, the devastation of a sudden loss is excruciating. I lost my beloved Poodle, Rusty in August of 1985. He was 4 and 1/2 years old, and he was killed in the street. I didn't even find out until the next day when DH and I got home from camping. The last I knew, my dog was safe in our home. Then all of a sudden he was gone. Our neighbors were in charge of coming in and letting the dogs out to potty. It was an accident, but still, the pain was so excruciating, that I couldn't even handle everyday life for quite a long time. Pet loss counciling helped, but really, not the way I had hoped. 

So that's what I'm talking about. Sudden and unexpected deaths, versus old age related deaths. For me, the grief is different.


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