# moyen/kleins?



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

moyens/kleins are an OFFICIAL size, just the same as mini and standards over there! So not a bad thing at all, they just have 4 sizes compared to our 3.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> moyens/kleins are an OFFICIAL size


Yeah, they are , but I am not sure that they get them by breeding standard to mini :rolffleyes::rolffleyes::rolffleyes: 

I think they are in the category of their own and bred only between themselves.

The structure of puppies that this breeder sells is really not good O-o ... IMO

I hope some breeders will jump in soon with explanation : ))) !


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

In Europe, I'm pretty sure they allow breeding of Poodles of different sizes, as long as it's no more than 10 cm.
I think this makes sense, because the structure would be kinda wrong when breeding a standard to a miniature, 

I've seen a breeding like this, the dog's head it weird, it's legs are weird, it's body it weird, and it's tail is weird.

It's a weird looking Poodle full stop!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have seen some glorious Moyen's on some European web sites. A lot of North American Moyen breeders are importing from Europe and breeding them to their smaller Standards. I am not sure yet how I feel about it, but do know that this size is likely a potential gold mine for the people who breed them. I also think there is going to be a much bigger risk in the health of the pups because the toys and minis have problems that are exclusive to the toys and minis, as do the Standards, so now it will be interesting to see what happens when they start getting the genes of the minis and standards all rolled into one dog.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Moyens are the "new" craze. Understand, though, that in Europe, they are not created by combining Minis with Standards, but typically by breeding Minis up in size.

Minis and Standards may be the same breed, but they are very different in type and temperament. If you took a Gamma Ray and enlarged a Mini, it would not look or act like a Standard. I would not consider the Mini/Standard breedings I have seen to be successful. Usually the Poodles are a combination of parts that don't all work together. Also, by breeding the two varieties together you introduce the health issues of both breeds.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

If you read the previous red poodle thread , you would have read that the Red Standard poodle was originally developed by aMini/Standard breeding. Interesting stuff.. As far as the success of the Moyen/klein that remains to be seen . Lots of European breeders are doing this. And some Canadian Breeders are jumping into the mix. and importing dogs from Germany Bringing in some very much needed diversity..
I personally am very excited to see the outcome...


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Vinnie is a kleinpudel


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

I was going to say, you should talk to Vinnie's mom, but Locket beat me to it!

We  Vinnie!


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

http://karbitpoodles.com/home.html 
Karin is breeding some wonderful dogs. They have great structure, and introduce some much needed diversity. Even Helen King, who has the infamous Mini Me with the problems, has high praise for them, as she's tested some of the litters.
But, - Karins dogs are for the most part very well suited for agility, and prolly need a job, not just laying on the couch. One of the members here has one of Karins pups.
Carole


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Dogsinstyle said:


> But, - Karins dogs are for the most part very well suited for agility, and prolly need a job, not just laying on the couch. One of the members here has one of Karins pups.


Based on AgilityIG's descriptions of Vinnie, that's a bang on assessment! He's gorgeous, but busy.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

LOL - I go to work and you guys have a discussion about Kleinpudels! :biggrin:

I had not even heard of a Kleinpudel until I talked to Helen King - I was looking for an oversized Mini and asked her for breeder recomendations - she highly recommended Karin and that's where I ended up. Karin is from Europe and leaves her puppies with their tails and dewclaws (another plus for me!). 

I have to say, I love love love Vinnie's size. He is from a Klein x Klein breeding, but a couple of his grandparents are Standards. His sire is imported from Germany and I have been to that breeder's website and their dogs are drop dead gorgeous. To me, Vinnie looks like a very small standard - not like a mini at all. Karin has also imported a couple of really gorgeous Klein girls from Russia. I cannot wait to see what they produce.

Vinnie has more the personality of a standard. He IS a very busy dog - the temperament tester on his litter recommended that he NOT go to a pet home and so he came to live with me. All of Karin's litters have temperament and structure evaluations done to determine the best home for that puppy (Vinnie's structure was the best in his litter - he neck is just a bit short, but otherwise fantastic). A lot of her puppies are in agility/performance homes.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I talked to Karin when I was looking for another puppy and I really enjoyed talking to her. The amount of information she has in her head is enormous. I think if anyone is looking for that size poodle they should really speak with Karin and get to know her and find out more about her ideas on breeding and the kleinpudel in general.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Interesting thread... so what is the difference between a klein and a mini?


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Interesting thread... so what is the difference between a klein and a mini?


I would like to know that too. I'm guessing the European standards require Standard Poodles to me larger than the requirement here. US Poodle standard says 15" and up, so I'm guessing EU says something like 20" and up? Kleins would be 15" to 20". It would be great to hear from someone who knows for sure though. 

I'd also like to know if Moyen, Klein and Dwarf are all relatively the same thing.


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

i love the size of a klien poodle....

i belive drawf is just the same as a min.... 

todd is a really small min only 13 and half inches 
i wish he was a s big as vinnie


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Interesting thread... so what is the difference between a klein and a mini?


I know that kleins are larger than minis and smaller than your typical standard. They also tend to have the standard temperament whereas the mini does not.


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/k/kleinpoodle.htm i just found this


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

http://sunsetpartipoodles.com/What Is A Klein Poodle.htm


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## piemama (Jan 19, 2010)

thanks for the replies, so Klein (German) and Moyen (French) is the same thing. I wonder why there aren't any more breeders in the US.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Personally I think you will be seeing this become more and more popular. The US NEEDS diversity for sure. This will help bring in the diversity. As I saID BEFORE I am most excited to see what comes of it ..


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

piemama said:


> thanks for the replies, so Klein (German) and Moyen (French) is the same thing. .


yep..... 


i really do love the size


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

piemama said:


> thanks for the replies, so Klein (German) and Moyen (French) is the same thing. I wonder why there aren't any more breeders in the US.


Because no one knows what it is and it's not recognized in the breed standard therefore if you are breeding to adhere to the standard you aren't going to want that size. You want what's competitive in the show ring.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

I also heard referenced to "dwarf" poodle. Is it the same as Klien/Moyen/caniche?


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## creativeparti (Mar 9, 2009)

when i was looking for parti poodles alot of european breeders use the term drawf for mins up to 30 cms (15 inches) at the shoulder 

so the klien would be bigger


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## Buck (Oct 22, 2009)

Doesn't Tiara Standard Poodles in California breed the smaller (moyen) poodles?


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## redcricket (Dec 5, 2009)

I think Cricket seems to fall into the Moyen category.....she is only 19 inches at the withers, and between 30-35 pounds. She's a small standard for sure, but not sure if she classifies as a Moyen though......either way, I really love her size. She has more of the temperament of a standard, but I think she tends to be less energetic than most standards. Clover is small for her age too, but that could still change. She's going through a growth spurt I think!


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I read that Tiara did do some crossing out to the mini lines in order to get a lower COI on their blacks, but I think they consider their dogs Standards. I know they breed to show so they would be breeding to adhear to the AKC standard which does not at this time include klines or moyens. 

I don't think that you get klines by mixing mini and standard. Even in the story of how the reds were developed they said they first litter was a combination in conformation and they did not cross out to the minis again. Instead they continued to line breed and breed to standards to get the correct conformation. 

I would guess that true klines are kline to kline breedings same as the other sizes. I would think that if you wanted to go that route your best bet would be an import from europe.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

In Germany -

Toy Poodles are up to *28 cm* (11")

Dwarf (Zwerg) Poodles are *28 cm to 35 cm* (11" to 13.8")

Klein Poodles are *35 cm to 45 cm* (13.8" to 17.7")

Standard (Groß) Poodles are *45 cm to 62 cm* (17.7" to 24.4")

so there is quite a fine line really!

*Note that standards can only be a maximum of 24.4", that would make a lot of standards I know out of the height range


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> I read that Tiara did do some crossing out to the mini lines in order to get a lower COI on their blacks, but I think they consider their dogs Standards. I know they breed to show so they would be breeding to adhear to the AKC standard which does not at this time include klines or moyens. .


Julies dogs are only shown UKC. They are half the size of Enzo and he is about 23 at the withers he is a small standard. When we go to the shows he is about the size of a bitch.

We saw at least 15 of her dogs at our last UKC show.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

So is it acceptable to breed a Mohen and Klein to a standard poodle?


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Thanks Jak - I was looking for that chart - I had it somewhere and could not find it!


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## karenm0 (Feb 2, 2010)

Where did you get Cricket? Where you specifically looking for a small Standard?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> So is it acceptable to breed a Mohen and Klein to a standard poodle?


In Europe or in the States? Again, I will say that Minis and Standards have very different types and crossing them does not give you a "small standard". When I look at Vinnie I do not see a dog that looks like a standard.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cbrand said:


> In Europe or in the States? Again, I will say that Minis and Standards have very different types and crossing them does not give you a "small standard". When I look at Vinnie I do not see a dog that looks like a standard.


I am talking in the states .. 
Kein/moyen to a standard. Would this be a regiterable dog and if so Waht would the registry be.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I am talking in the states ..
> Kein/moyen to a standard. Would this be a regiterable dog and if so Waht would the registry be.


Yes it would be registerable. All three varieties are considered to be part of one breed. It is a really good question though. Should an 11", over-sized Toy be registered as a Mini or does its pedigree dictate that it be registered as a Mini? A well known Mini breeder has Minis that routinely end up over 15" (heck I saw one that had to be over 17") but I think these should still be registered as Minis because they come from an all Mini pedigree.

I think that if a poodle is a cross between a Mini and Standard and is purposely being bred to be over 15" then it should be registered as a Standard.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Good points cbrand !


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

So in the US do they allow the breeding between Standard/Mini and Mini/Toy to be AKC registerable??

In NZ they don't.

But as I said, in Europe I'm pretty sure they do, as long as it is 10 cm or less between the two dogs.

Am I also incorrect to assume that all three sizes of poodles should have the same temperament?? Isn't that kinda the breed standard? So theoretically, if a large mini was breed to a small standard, with only 10 cm or so difference, wouldn't that then work out?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

jak said:


> So in the US do they allow the breeding between Standard/Mini and Mini/Toy to be AKC registerable??
> 
> In NZ they don't.
> 
> ...


Here in US I believe that you can cross breed the sizes and its allowed but no one does it. The red standards where created this way but this took years of breeding to get them to look right.

I don't think any one is breeding toys to standards. Usually it would be a mini to standard , and a toy to mini. I know a breeder in CA who bred a red mini to her standard bitch.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I was thinking the same thing Roxy. In the histroy of the red Standards they say the first ones were awful looking...mini legs, Standard body, horrible dispositions....I would think breeding mini to standard in any colour is going to bring about the same result. While you may ther odd decent looking one, the norm would be something from one size, something from the other.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I was thinking the same thing Roxy. In the histroy of the red Standards they say the first ones were awful looking...mini legs, Standard body, horrible dispositions....I would think breeding mini to standard in any colour is going to bring about the same result. While you may ther odd decent looking one, the norm would be something from one size, something from the other.


Yes they said the first pups came out with mini heads and standard bodies and weird legs lengths lol.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm going to preface my post by saying that we love Chalumeau very, very much!! She is family! HOWEVER... her breeder was a classic BYB and the breeding that produced Meau should never have taken place (but I wouldn't trade her for anything!!)

Meau's sire was an average sized brown standard. Her dam, according to the "breeder" was also a standard (we were told she was "cream" - but after hanging around this forum for the last few months, we've learned that she never should have bred the brown to the cream if she wanted to keep a nice dark brown - but all she wanted was the $$$) And, at 16 months old; Meau is already very "grizzled".

Here is a picture of Meau at about 6 months old, and Candi (Meau's mom)










Does Candi look "standard" to any of you??? Meau has short legs and a rather long body - her face/muzzle is narrow (I want to say "snippy", but I love her too much to use that word!) She has light eyes... She's NOT a great representation of her breed and besides the fact that the "breeder" didn't know what the heck she was doing - I believe she bred a standard to what I would consider a mini... Meau is around 19" so she's made it past mini-size, but not by much! At 5 months old, Lucy is already taller than Meau!

Here's a side view of our short legged, long bodied standard poodle (remember, I'm a dachshund person too; so Meau fits right in!!) 










And a shot that may explain her light eyes and "snippy" face a little better, too...










So... this is what you can get when you cross a poorly bred standard with a poorly bred mini (but we still love her lots - she has the BEST personality!!) _Isn't that what they say about ugly girls? "She's got a great personality!!"_


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

Wait, I am confused...what is an acceptable size for a kleinpudel?

I know standards are 15 and over, right? 

I am tired of people telling me Flip is small at about 23".


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## kanatadoggroomer (Jan 24, 2010)

Well, this is VERY interesting to me. I had NO idea that the different sizes of poodles had distinct personalities and that different size poodles had different health issues. Call me ignorant, but I've always been around standards. Wow. I'm so impressed with the information I get here on this board! Thanks.

So, tell me then - I have a friend who is interested in one day owning a "small" standard poodle as her next dog - are there health issues associated with standards at the lower end of the size spectrum? Is she better off looking for a "moyen" poodle then? She loves the standard personality and wants to retain that. How do you even go about finding a "small" standard - one that would barely be on the charts in the size regulations?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

kanatadoggroomer said:


> Well, this is VERY interesting to me. I had NO idea that the different sizes of poodles had distinct personalities and that different size poodles had different health issues. Call me ignorant, but I've always been around standards. Wow. I'm so impressed with the information I get here on this board! Thanks.
> 
> So, tell me then - I have a friend who is interested in one day owning a "small" standard poodle as her next dog - are there health issues associated with standards at the lower end of the size spectrum? Is she better off looking for a "moyen" poodle then? She loves the standard personality and wants to retain that. How do you even go about finding a "small" standard - one that would barely be on the charts in the size regulations?


She will have to ask  We try to keep ours under 25"
cause we dont like the huge standards . But that is just us .. so have your friend ask the size of the parents and what do they expect to get..


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Plumcrazy.... Candi does indeed look like a Mini. I think that "breeder" really took a chance breeding a smaller bitch to a standard stud. Usually it is the dog who is the smaller variety. I actually like her color. I think she is a good example of a Cafe (maybe I'm just saying this because this is the color my Delilah will end up.) I really like the Silvery sheen to her coat.

Kanata.... There are a number of small, well bred standards out there. My Izze was 21" and just around 30lbs. My Delilah is 22-23 and 40lbs. Delilah's aunt was 20". I know that Kim Bates of Penndragon Poodles has a bitch who is 20'21". They are out there.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Kanata.... There are a number of small, well bred standards out there. My Izze was 21" and just around 30lbs. My Delilah is 22-23 and 40lbs. Delilah's aunt was 20". I know that Kim Bates of Penndragon Poodles has a bitch who is 20'21". They are out there.


Yes they are out there again enzo is like 22-23 ?

If you go to the showing section look at my videos there is a blue dog in the ring and he was also smaller than Enzo. He looked about 21 - 20 ? 

if its not up there in my youtube I will uploaded it tonight. I taped him going down and back


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

oooopppsssss


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Absolutely "out there" ! Many breeders try to stay "compact" to curb bloat and some other skeletal issues. 

*Cabernet* also has smaller size standards - and just magnificent dogs  !!!!

I am almost sure that in Europe Klein poodles are NOT a product of mixing standard with mini but a class of their own ! Any that I saw while I lived in Europe had perfect proportions and looked just like smaller standard ! NO short legs at all !!!!!! Head also looked like one of a standard !Temperament also was one of a standard ...

I think that BYBs in the USA are trying to "pull a leg" of already uninformed buyers and sell them "mix and match" thing as a Klein :rolffleyes:- JMO


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Don't you find most of the Standards are smaller now? Betty-Jo and Jenny are 22" and 40 pounds. This seems to be more the norm lately than the Spoos of yesteryear. Their Mom is a big girl, and their Dad is a teeny boy, and their pups all seem to be right in the middle somewhere.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Ha ha , Dear Arreau : ))) ! It depends where you grew up  ! 

In Europe I never saw a Standard of proportions I saw here and especially NOT 27 inch - standards looked like giants to me when I came to the USA LOL

Even if you look at old paintings - I never saw a poodle as big as nowadays standards :rolffleyes:

I always joke with my husband that everything has to be "super sized" on this continent LOL


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Ha ha , Dear Arreau : ))) ! It depends where you grew up  !
> 
> In Europe I never saw a Standard of proportions I saw here and especially NOT 27 inch - standards looked like giants to me when I came to the USA LOL
> 
> ...


 You could very well be right!! I am 5'11" and my brother is 6'5"!!!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

aahahahhahahaaaaa , Oh My ARREAU ound:ound:ound: !!!!

How on earth you came with *that *"comeback" LMAO - ahaahahaa - I just love your and Plum's way of joking : )))) !!! You guys are always cracking me up : ))))) !!! 

Actually , where I am coming from, people are VERY tall, but also very thin : ).

I am 5'6 and my hubby 5'11 and were were "on the short side" there LMAO. When we came here, we felt so tall all of the sudden LMAO


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> aahahahhahahaaaaa , Oh My ARREAU ound:ound:ound: !!!!
> 
> How on earth you came with *that *"comeback" LMAO - ahaahahaa - I just love your and Plum's way of joking : )))) !!! You guys are always cracking me up : ))))) !!!
> 
> ...


Oh. Well unfortunately we don't have to worry about the "very thin" thing. Unfortunately my parents didn't have a PHR (people's health registry) to go to to check things out first, and all the females on my dam's side have struggled with their weight their entire lives!!! Poop!


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## piemama (Jan 19, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Oh. Well unfortunately we don't have to worry about the "very thin" thing. Unfortunately my parents didn't have a PHR (people's health registry) to go to to check things out first, and all the females on my dam's side have struggled with their weight their entire lives!!! Poop!


That's too funny! !:bounce:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

LOL ; ))) - you know what - it is just that it is impossible to find a parking space ANYWHERE in any big city over there - so people just walk allllll the time - like it or not LMAO - with big shopping bags, grocery bags, school back-packs end all (for "weight training" part of the "daily exercise" ) LMAO . Any time I travel back I get 10 pounds off by a second week LMAO 

Joking to the side , all of this talking about genetic testing and temperament testing and whole caboodle really makes me wonder some days - how many humans would pass ANY of those tests and be "worthy" of "breeding" :rolffleyes::rolffleyes::rolffleyes: 

I even made "assessment" of my girls if they were of a "show quality" LMAO - and , sad to say no !!!!!! Both have slight overbite and both need glasses - JUST FOR THE RECORD _ THAT CAME FROM A STUD !!!!!!!!!


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> LOL ; ))) - you know what - it is just that it is impossible to find a parking space ANYWHERE in any big city over there - so people just walk allllll the time - like it or not LMAO - with big shopping bags, grocery bags, school back-packs end all (for "weight training" part of the "daily exercise" ) LMAO . Any time I travel back I get 10 pounds off by a second week LMAO
> 
> Joking to the side , all of this talking about genetic testing and temperament testing and whole caboodle really makes me wonder some days - how many humans would pass ANY of those tests and be "worthy" of "breeding" :rolffleyes::rolffleyes::rolffleyes:
> 
> I even made "assessment" of my girls if they were of a "show quality" LMAO - and , sad to say no !!!!!! Both have slight overbite and both need glasses - JUST FOR THE RECORD _ THAT CAME FROM A STUD !!!!!!!!!


LOL :rofl: 

That's all I have to add to this convo, but MAN that was hilarious!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

LOL :biggrin: You guys crack me up. Have you ever people watched - you can just see the blend of mom and dad. I watched a whole family of redheads - mom and dad and probably 3-4 kids and it was sooooooo obvious that they were family. Made me laugh. I love to people watch. Now I'll have to watch for show quality and pet quality!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Ha ha - glad we made you laugh : ))) !

Ah yes- I love to "people watch" in general - humans can be very "entertaining" even when just "passing by" ... 

*Maybe we should make a new thread :*

The best Human Stud and the best Winners Bitch LMAO 

I vote Brad Pitt and Angelina LMAO - definitely good producers !!!! ound:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Ha ha - glad we made you laugh : ))) !
> 
> Ah yes- I love to "people watch" in general - humans can be very "entertaining" even when just "passing by" ...
> 
> ...


Lol, but their temperaments aren't quite up to scratch!!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

What do you mean LMAO _ TYPICAL show dogs  !!!!!!

Flashy, energetic, love to be in front of the masses, like to use extra "coloring " , always "in season" , can change handlers often with no problem :rolffleyes:

I have no idea what you are talking about :rofl:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> What do you mean LMAO _ TYPICAL show dogs  !!!!!!
> 
> Flashy, energetic, love to be in front of the masses, like to use extra "coloring " , always "in season" , can change handlers often with no problem :rolffleyes:
> 
> I have no idea what you are talking about :rofl:


Lol, they sorta have their issues... lol a bit dysfunctional


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

But of course LOL !!!! Shhhhhhhhhhhh !!!! Only "handlers" know that 

Hey - what is your vote ; ))) LOL !!!!?????


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> But of course LOL !!!! Shhhhhhhhhhhh !!!! Only "handlers" know that
> 
> Hey - what is your vote ; ))) LOL !!!!?????


What do ya mean lol???


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Ahemmm LOL - who do you think is the best human Stud and the Winners Bitch LMAO


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Ahemmm LOL - who do you think is the best human Stud and the Winners Bitch LMAO


Well me of course!!!!!! lol just joking

Ummm..... let me think (literally thinking as I'm typing this)



I'd have to get back to you on that!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Ohhhhhhhh...George Clooney or Dr. McDreamy from Grey's get my vote for winners dog. YUMMY. Brad was up there, but whoever has been grooming him lately is doing a terrible job with that stupid goat beard. I don't know about winners bitch yet...there are so many, but when you consider all the botox and cosmetic surgery, they need to be disqualified.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

jak said:


> Lol, but their temperaments aren't quite up to scratch!!


ound: and I am a wee bit suspicious that their litter is multi-sired!!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ohhhhhhhh...George Clooney or Dr. McDreamy from Grey's get my vote for winners dog. YUMMY. Brad was up there, but whoever has been grooming him lately is doing a terrible job with that stupid goat beard. I don't know about winners bitch yet...there are so many, but when you consider all the botox and cosmetic surgery, they need to be disqualified.



Don't forget those older quality studs!! Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, and Richard Gere all get my vote!!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Ohhhhhhhh...George Clooney


Oh yeah baby :eyebrows: LMAO - BIS in Silver division , that is for sure !!!! BUT - did not sire any pups yet - so there are questions about his fertility LMAO Anyhow - Westminster Show material- no question about that !!! : )))) VERY nice pigmentation 

And I absolutely agree with "grooming problems" of BIS Brad LMAO - who knows - maybe he had some matting problems and had to use bands - not unheard off - you know LMAO 

*Agility* - yeah - some retired studs were really great, but unfortunately they should stay retired unless we get really stranded for that low COI :rofl:



> and I am a wee bit suspicious that their litter is multi-sired!!


 ahahahahaaa
I was thinking about that problem - but you know what - they were not even multi-sired O-O - there was DOB adjustments and completely falsified litter registration involved !!!!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> And I absolutely agree with "grooming problems" of BIS Brad LMAO - who knows - maybe he had some matting problems and had to use bands - not unheard off - you know LMAO


ound: And there has been some question of temperament lately... maybe he is difficult to groom around the face? :rofl:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> And there has been some question of temperament lately... maybe he is difficult to groom around the face?


Ahahahahaaaaa AND that is the part that we see ound:ound:ound:- who knows how difficult he is on that table LMAO !!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

You know we have some top producers out there. They've sired many litters by many different bitches. Not known whether or not the genetic make up is worth the breeding though, the puppies are too young.

Winner's dog for me is going to have to be a tie between Hugh Jackman (tall, sleek, has good coat, and features represent very closely to breed standard) and Ryan Renolds (same good qualities as Hugh but represents a nice temperament as well). Winner's bitch would go to Scarlett Johansson. There is nothing I can find wrong with her so she's top bitch. Now if these two would just produce we can see what two top producers can make.


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## cash (Aug 7, 2009)

AgilityIG said:


> Don't forget those older quality studs!! Harrison Ford, Sean Connery, and Richard Gere all get my vote!!


Shouldn't they be in as Specials by now?!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

ound: What was I thinking!! Obviously they would have finished as youngsters - probably before their adult coats even came in!!! :rofl:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

LMAO - yeap - we will have to ask AKC for that special permission for litter registration for older studs LMAO !!!!!

Kpoo - I agree - Johansson is BEAUTIFUL - very correct and nice representative and MUCH better temperament LOL 

Hugh - hmmmm... me like LOL, but more like "agility" type, if you know what I mean he he heee

Ryan - well...those eyes are too small and too close IMO and not enough hair LOL Not much lip either and his stop is too short. We have to work on that Stud selection more it seems :rolffleyes: he he, so much better bitches in that ring man !!!!!!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Ya'll and this conversation are too funny! Thanks for the great thread! I learned a bunch!


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## karenm0 (Feb 2, 2010)

Our breeder did this (mom was a standard and dad was a mini), and our pup, Ziggy, is perfect. He just 15 inches at the shoulder and is absolutely beautiful. While standards and minis are different sizes, they are all the same breed (poodles) -- size (not parentage) determines whether a poodle is a toy, mini, standard. We won't be breeding our guy, but I would think that it might be a good thing to mix up the gene pool a little bit. Better to have two healthy parents of varying sizes than two same-size parents with size-specific health issues.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I have a standard who's breeder intentionally bred to a mini in 2002 as well as hunted up Eastern European unknown dogs. She is now going forward with those lines in her standards plus developed a separate line of Moyens with a Russian Moyen sire. 9 years after 'the experiment', I think her dogs are beautiful, healthy, smart and proportional. Mine is of a different type physically than your typical standard. I equate that with the Eastern European line more than the line with the mini several generations back. One thing that happens when you mix two desparate sizes is that you will get a bigger size range in the litters. Mine is near 22 inches tall, but there are both larger dogs and smaller dogs than her from her litter. There was a dog that had health issues from the first generation mix with the mini, but nothing since then that I know about. I wouldn't hesitate to get another of the breeders dogs and may just do that at some point in the future. 

There are people on this forum who are dead set against any mixing of the sizes. They have excellent points of why not to do it (different personalities, energy levels, inherited diseases, proportions of the resulting dogs). It also matters why someone does it and if it is done over and over and over, which I think would be much worse than once. But even once is too much for some people. This is a topic that will always have two sides.


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