# Promised Land Poodles opinions wanted...



## pmdavis

*Promised Land Poodles opinion...*

Some of you probably saw my post in the introduction forum, but maybe asking about this particular breeder fits better in this forum. 

I am thinking about driving 11 hours to pick up a puppy from a breeder in Montana. Could you look at this web site and give me your thoughts on these puppies?

http://promisedlandpoodles.com/

She appears to be somewhat new to the poodle breeding, but she did post scans of test done on her Dam and Sire. 

Your thoughts and insight is appreciated. 

p


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## roxy25

I already posted my opinion in your other thread. I would go with the local breeder. Honestly if I where to get one I would not buy from the Montana breeder. Why drive 11 hrs for a breeder who does not seem to want to improve the breed, when you have a very good breeder right in your back yard?

When I mean "this breeder does not seem to want to imporve the breed" I am talking about how she only breeds and does not show her dogs or puts them in other dog events such as , Obedience, agility etc.. 

I saw that she showed one dog in UKC but she did not show the parents of the pups. Why go to a beginner breeder when you can go to a professional experienced breeder?


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## Sivaro

Im with Roxy on this one. Dont get good vibes from the other. Sorry

Edited to say, why dont you take a drive and meet both like I said in intros. None of us can really make up your mind for you, you need to be happy with the person you are buying from.


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## pmdavis

*Opening my horizons....*

Thank you all, for your thoughts on this subject... 

I think my main hestancy about the local breeder is that she is just now thinking about a health warranty. Plus there are a lot of "ifs" -- Although the parantage of these pups is great...

But now this opens another thought.... does anyone know a good breeder than either has puppies, or will in the near future in NW United Staes? If I'm willing to travel 11 hours for this Montana set, why not open my scope to traveling to another breeder? 

p


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## roxy25

pmdavis said:


> Thank you all, for your thoughts on this subject...
> 
> I think my main hestancy about the local breeder is that she is just now thinking about a health warranty. Plus there are a lot of "ifs" -- Although the parantage of these pups is great...


well she probably just now saying she will make one for you to show you that she has nothing to hide and that she wants you to be a happy customer. 

Some breeders who are at the top are well known and people that buy from them know how good the bloodlines are. How long has the local breeder been breeding dogs ?

go to http://www.akc.org/events/search/index.cfm and look up when the next dogs shows are. go to them and personally talk to the breeders , I bet you will find a lot of good breeders in your area also 



I say contact PCA and ask them for a list of breeders in the areas you are willing to drive.

Also try Northern CA we have a bunch I good breeders there also.


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## pmdavis

roxy25 said:


> well she probably just now saying she will make one for you to show you that she has nothing to hide and that she wants you to be a happy customer.
> 
> Some breeders who are at the top are well known and people that buy from them know how good the bloodlines are. How long has the local breeder been breeding dogs ?
> 
> go to http://www.akc.org/events/search/index.cfm and look up when the next dogs shows are. go to them and personally talk to the breeders , I bet you will find a lot of good breeders in your area also
> 
> 
> 
> I say contact PCA and ask them for a list of breeders in the areas you are willing to drive.
> 
> Also try Northern CA we have a bunch I good breeders there also.


I'm thinking this is the first litter that she has done.... she is leasing her bitch from http://www.castagnedog.com/ There is a show up in Linden (about 30 miles away) on the 16/17 and I am planning on going up to it. 

p


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## roxy25

pmdavis said:


> I'm thinking this is the first litter that she has done.... she is leasing her bitch from http://www.castagnedog.com/ There is a show up in Linden (about 30 miles away) on the 16/17 and I am planning on going up to it.
> 
> p


AHHH I see I was very confused on which breeder was new. This could explain why she did not have a health guarantee ( she is still learning her self) I would still not go with the montana breeder. 

You best chances will to go to that up coming show. Make sure you know what time standard poodles are showing and what ring number.

Wait until the class is finished to talk to the breeders. Tell them what happened to your poor girl and see if they have anything available most breeders will back up on what they are breeding and offer a health guarantee.


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## starkeeper

*I bought Star from cross country, unmet.*

She flew to me on Delta in the cargo hold.

I did wind up getting her from a breeder that local apricot breeders recommended to me. None of them had puppies available and they knew her and knew she was a legitimate breeder and confirmation/agility participant who had pups with good lineage.

It was weird though....kind of like getting a mail order bride!


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## pmdavis

*Thank you for your input!*

All,

It is so easy to go for the "instant gratification" but after reading all your post and talking to another local breeder I have decided to not go with the Montana breeder. It bothers me that the main reason she has puppies, is to sell them..... She is very nice and we connected in an unusual way, it just doesn't feel right. 

I have come to the conclusion that I will go on the waiting list for the local puppies, while continueing my search. I have decided that if need be, I will have a puppy shipped in... 

Thanks again!!!


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## Promised Land Poodles

*Promised Land Poodles*

To imply that the only good breeders are show,agility etc people is outragous! I breed Standard Poodles because I love the breed, they are not only beautiful but they are kind loving inteligent animals. My main concern is health as i too have been a poodle owner that has had a poodle puppy suddenly die at 5months. No matter how long you have been breeding or how impressive your bloodlines are that does not guarentee good health. I have several pups whos owners are showing and training in agility obediance and hunting. We know that the standard is proficiant in these areas, and i too am working with my dogs. I just choose not to do it in the ring mostly because of the unkind and inexcusable behavior of many of the people that do. The main thing here is to get the right home for the dog. If that means to refer to other breeders for that prospective owner to feel comfortable about the choice then we should all be willing to do that and not slander other breeders in the process. If you are interested in my motives then feel free to ask. My main priority is HEALTH then appropriate placement and of corse integrity and honesty with prospective owners.


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## Harley_chik

Health and conformation aren't an either/or issue. You can have both and they tend to go hand in hand. 

You mention the attitude of other people that show. Do you really expect those people to be welcoming to someone who breeds w/o proving their dogs. I can certainly understand why they would be frustrated. Here they are trying to better the breed; and people who aren't concerned w/ titles of any sort, are dragging the breed down.


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## Promised Land Poodles

no one said that conformation is not important however I think that health is more important and so should you! and since my dogs are very healthy and i have made that public you should then assume by your statement that they are also correct in comformation...since in your statement you claims they go hand. The attitudes of "some" show people is the reason why more people dont title their dogs. And titles in no way better the breed. They only make people like yourself feel good about "you" How about you spend more time being kind and helpful to others that are breeding-that is what is truly going to better the breed.


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## Cdnjennga

Promised Land Poodles said:


> My main priority is HEALTH then appropriate placement and of corse integrity and honesty with prospective owners.


Welcome to the forum! If you've had a look around you've probably seen a lot of debate about the breeding of titled versus non titled dogs.

IMO if health was all that mattered, we'd all be getting mutts from the shelter because of their "hybrid vigor". But everyone participating on this forum (presumably) wants poodles, so we have to accept that certain health problems go along with dogs that fit the criteria of being a poodle. Should breeders be trying to make the breed healthier? Definitely! But not to the point where a poodle stops being a poodle. If that makes any sense.  It's trying to get a perfect balance between conformation, personality and health.

Edited to add - I'm not saying your poodles don't look or act like poodles. I'm just saying I think breeders need to have a wide focus and aim for the whole package where possible.


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## Promised Land Poodles

as we all know we cannot control what others choose to do however the ever critical attitude of people in the poodle breeding/show/etc business is not helping to better the breed either. unfortunatly there are always going to be people that only care about the buck not the breed. lets just do our best and have some dignety and some respect. and most of all lets not critisize people you know nothing about!


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## cbrand

I love it when someone who breeds a 17 month old bitch talks about the importance of health. 

And to come full circle in the breeder drama, I see that a puppy from that litter was registered as Bijou's Coralicious of K-Lar. (where is the popcorn emoticon?)


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> I love it when someone who breeds a 17 month old bitch talks about the importance of health.
> 
> And to come full circle in the breeder drama, I see that a puppy from that litter was registered as Bijou's Coralicious of K-Lar. (where is the popcorn emoticon?)


O god .... opcorn: smh


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## mandi

Am not in on any of this but just saw your post and wondered what the proper age is to breed a bitch-just out of curiosity?


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> I love it when someone who breeds a 17 month old bitch talks about the importance of health.
> 
> 
> And to come full circle in the breeder drama, I see that a puppy from that litter was registered as Bijou's Coralicious of K-Lar. (where is the popcorn emoticon?)


OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are kidding about this I hope !!!!!!!!!!


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## Promised Land Poodles

its unfortunate for the "breed" that you have nothing better to do with your time than to dig up information that you can turn into somthing that it is not. exploitation and slander will not gain you popularity in the areas that you need it most and that is with those of us that are trying to breed responsibly, in retrospect you are just enabeling the very thing you dispise! too bad because your knowledge is valuable but your character is appalling


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## Cdnjennga

mandi said:


> Am not in on any of this but just saw your post and wondered what the proper age is to breed a bitch-just out of curiosity?


There's no "proper" age persay. 2 is generally the accepted earliest age for a Mini/ Standard poodle but many breeders both on and off this forum breed earlier. From the Versatility in Poodles website (which is a great resource):

Red Flags (when evaluating a breeder/ breeder's website):
1) A breeder having numerous colors and varieties or breeds.
2) The newest "marketing buzz phrase" e.g. Hunting Poodles, Royal Poodles or Teacup Poodles.
3) Breeding multiple litters in a year.
4) Breeding young (too young for proper genetic clearances). Standards and Miniatures should be 2 years old, and Toys 1 year old before breeding.
5) Breeder willing to sell and ship without personal contact.

http://www.vipoodle.org/PDF_Files/How to Read Breeder Website.pdf


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## Harley_chik

cbrand said:


> I love it when someone who breeds a 17 month old bitch talks about the importance of health.
> 
> And to come full circle in the breeder drama, I see that a puppy from that litter was registered as Bijou's Coralicious of K-Lar. (where is the popcorn emoticon?)


Good grief! How can you be so preachy about health and then breed a dog at that age. Thank you Cbrand for posting this info!


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## KPoos

Promised Land Poodles said:


> its unfortunate for the "breed" that you have nothing better to do with your time than to dig up information that you can turn into somthing that it is not. exploitation and slander will not gain you popularity in the areas that you need it most and that is with those of us that are trying to breed responsibly, in retrospect you are just enabeling the very thing you dispise! too bad because your knowledge is valuable but your character is appalling


Why is it that when someone calls you out on some stupid idiotic behavior people tend to pull the "character" card? I've had this happen to me and I find it offensive that someone's character be in question just because they won't take crap from someone and they are willing to just lay it out there and say it like it is.


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## cbrand

Darn it! Where did you find that popcorn emoticon? I looked for it!

Anyway..... my rotten character aside, I would be willing to cut a breeder slack on breeding a Poodle who was less than 2 yrs old if there were extenuating circumstances like a ticking biological clock or if a dog was only going to be in the country for a couple of months (that happens sometimes when really hot shot European dogs come in for PCA).

But, when I once again see, a breeder breeding a young, untitled bitch to an untitled stud she has at home, it makes me go :doh:

If a breeder says that they love the breed then I expect to see them actively involved with the "fancy". This means getting out and interacting in a public way with the breed. It does not have to be conformation showing. It can be tracking, obedience, agility, hunt, or therapy work. Surely you can't have issues with the training methods used in all of these venues? Time constraints? Any breeder who has time to whelp a litter has time to put performance titles on her dogs. I was able to get a CD title on my Sabrina in one long weekend show. I can't stress enough that this type of work gives a breeder better insight into what good structure, good type and good temperament are for our breed.

About health.... a breeder who is truly concerned about health will wait to breed their dogs and bitches. There are so many disorders that we can not test for and taking a wait and see approach is prudent. When you breed a bitch at age 17 months, she could still turn around and be very, very ill with something like JRD at 2 yrs. Addisons and Epilepsy often don't rear their ugly heads until age 3-4. I know how important health is. I have had my own issues in my line. Thank God I waited to breed my Sabrina and her daughter Izze. If I had bred right away at age 2 (or earlier) I would could have 3 or maybe even 4 generations of dogs on the ground now all possibly carrying the ticking time bomb of bloat.


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## wishpoo

Cbrand - thanks again for great input and putting all things in it's rightful place !!! :first::deal:


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## PonkiPoodles

So did anyone other than me catch the connection between this breeder and Laura turner from Bijou's?



> Check it out! Cora is a UKC Champion:
> 
> see new post for pictures
> 
> Congratulations to Terry Ladouceur and Laura Turner of Bantford Onterio Canada….and Cora too !!


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## Promised Land Poodles

*Just so you know!*

I am not working with Bijou, I have posted this for the benefit of others and to inform the rest of you that I am not currently, nor will I ever knowingly work with this person. I am sad for my puppy, and will do everything possible to see that this type of thing doe not happen again.

Beware of doing business with Bijou Standard Pooles, K-lar Standard Poodles, Laura, or as she identified herself to me..."Terry Ladecoure" She will contact you as a novice breeder, purchase breeding rights and will breed the dog without compliance to contract agreements. This is a very deceptive person. I will provide you with the email addresses I know of and the business names I know of. If anyone has any information for me regarding this breeder please let me know. When Laura was finished with "Cora" Bijou's Coralicious of K-Lar (you will not find her on poodlepedigree.com) she offered her back to me, but as the time approched for pick up I was not able to verify the flight...when I called the airlines they said that the flight had been booked by "TheLaShop" not by Laura Turner and that the flight had been cancelled the day before the flight pick up in Lethbridge. I contacted Laura about this and she said it was booked...I was never able to confirm that flight so she cancelled the sale the day of supposed delivery and refunded my money. She sent me an air canada flight notification and everything, problem is it was not verifiable!!!! check these things as they may look authentic but they must be verified. I am sad that I was not able to get Cora back, Laura tells me she was sold to a nice couple and was spayed, however she will not give me the names of the couple so that I can verify that either.
HFDfirerescue 
Bijou Standard Poodles
K-lar 

the following is an email from "Terry" just so you can see how she works! She had me convinced that she was a new poodle owner, not a large scale breeding organization!!

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:04:19 -0700
Subject: RE: Cora


Hi Deborah,

Laura went a head and paid you for me. 
Laura is her name. 
She said there was a paypal link on your page for the amount of $1250.00
so that should cover the $36.00 paypal fee (3% on the amount of $1200.00 price) for Cora (?).
I'm sorry to be so pushy and I hope and pray that this is OK.
I just didn't wish to miss out on getting such a lovely girl, over my inability to cross the border. 

I have sent away for my passport...which they tell me is only a "renewal" as I had an old expired one, so it won't take as long as if I were applying for one. "IF" my passport doesn't come in time, then either Laura or Chloe will be going to pick her up from the airport for me in 2-3 weeks time. My friend Jackie will not be able to go until November and that is too far off... I pray my passport comes in time, as I was reading that a poodle will bond with the first person they give kisses to 

Chloe is in University so she is available Thursdays or weekends only.
I'm just waiting to hear back from her when she has to go to pick up her kitten
or what dates the breeder gave her to work with.
What works best for YOU so we can figure and plan for a date ?
This is all going ot work out and I'm so excited !!!!!!
Thanks for your patience ! 
Can I have your permission to have photos of her parents and the photo of her as a baby off of your web page or would you be able to send me ones to have ?
I am wishing to start a photo album.
I'm so excited !!!!!!!
My own Standard Poodle girl FINALLY !!!! 

I pray that she and I might bond quickly and she will trust me and have fun with me as...
there is a UKC show here in November that I was supposed to go to help my friend at. 
Would be so very cool to show Cora there... 
IF we win I will send you a show photo !
I think in order to "finish" she has to beat another poodle or win a group. 
I"m not "expecting" that but if she is up to it, it would be fun.


Is there anything that Cora enjoys having such as a certain toy or treat so I can start shopping for her ? Does Cora like a certain style of doggy bed (rectangle or round).
OH and what type of food do you feed her so I can see if we carry it here in Canada !!!!
OH this is going to be so much fun !!!!

By the way... expect to hear from my co-worker... he has fallen in love with your red puppy named "Baby"... LOL

I'm driving everyone at work nuts here waiting to hear from you and when I can get
my Cora


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

WOW!!!!! All I can say is WOW!!!!! Thank you for this information!!!


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## Keithsomething

you know...no matter what ones opinion on you as a breeder is Promise Land...being taken advantage of is never ok

hopefully you write a letter to the various clubs and associations she is connected to and let them know how completely ridiculous she is making them look just by having an association with her

clubs I'd write to:

Apricot/Red Poodle Club
Apricot Red Poodle Club

Canadian Kennel Club
Canadian Kennel Club

Multi-Colored Poodle Club
Multi-Colored Poodle Club


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## JE-UK

Promised Land Poodles said:


> no one said that conformation is not important however I think that health is more important and so should you! and since my dogs are very healthy and i have made that public you should then assume by your statement that they are also correct in comformation...since in your statement you claims they go hand. The attitudes of "some" show people is the reason why more people dont title their dogs. And titles in no way better the breed. They only make people like yourself feel good about "you" How about you spend more time being kind and helpful to others that are breeding-that is what is truly going to better the breed.


I am new to poodles, so defer to others with regard to poodle expertise. However, I do have history with horses and equine rehab, and the constant refrain of backyard breeders (the ones who keep the meat auctions in business) sounds similar .... "oh, showing is so political, there is no point, it doesn't prove anything."

It does prove something.

With horses, there are a number of ways to prove the ability and soundness of your horse ... breed shows, dressage, hunters, WP, endurance. Same with dogs. The purpose of these pursuits (other than the fact that they are just a lot of fun) is to demonstrate publicly that your animal is sound and healthy and able to perform a function sufficient to succeed.

There are undoubtedly some abuses in breed shows. There is also an enormous population of dedicated dog lovers, who spend untold amounts of time and money in what can be a pretty thankless pursuit. Titles DO better the breed. And they are concrete evidence that a breeder has the IMPROVEMENT of the breed in mind.


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## JE-UK

KPoos said:


> Why is it that when someone calls you out on some stupid idiotic behavior people tend to pull the "character" card? I've had this happen to me and I find it offensive that someone's character be in question just because they won't take crap from someone and they are willing to just lay it out there and say it like it is.


KPoos, it's call an ad hominem argument, which is a fancy Latin way of saying, if you can't defend your position with logic, attack the person instead.


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## 3dogs

*Wow!!!*

Can I just say from a Novice person seeking a future poodle that the Bijou/l-lar is a very deceptive website.

I am assuming from reading some of the posts on here that this Kennel/breeder is NOT on the up & up. Her website though boasts much of what everyone here say's to look for. Now I didn't read the whole site of Bijou so didn't look for health BUT what was stated was UKC Ch. status on at least one dog the "Cora" dog from Promise Land, 2. there are obedience titles, agility pictures (though it looks like the back yard) etc... So, in all honesty whether the info is true or not on the website it looks fairly legit to a Novice Looking to purchase a dog.

Now I have been with dogs for over 15 years, mostly my mutts showing in UKC, ASCA, TT, CGC etc. doing obedience & Agility, tracking. I have only researched 1 purebreed dog & that was 10 years ago. Went with a great show breeder of Cresteds. Anyhow, I am a Novice when it comes to the pure's & deciding on a breeder. I have been grooming dogs for 10 years. So, I do have some dog knowledge. I feel really sorry for people that are true Novice owners looking for a Pet because frankly Bijou has a good website that sucks one in.

I think it would benefit the Novice dog purchaser in ways to avoid the "traps" set by unethical, high volume etc... dog breeders. Not that I would purchase a dog from another Country, or very much have never met the breeder & seen the home the dogs have grown up in BUT I am finding that difficult when I am looking for my small standard (Klein, Moyen) that the breeders I am looking at are across the country from me. So, besides the obvious red flags what are the more subtle "red flags". Again I would not have thought from the glance that I looked at that this "breeder" in Canada was a horrendous, high volume person.


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## Promised Land Poodles

*Banned from poodle forum for dishonesty*

The deception of the owner of Bijou Standard Poodles runs deep...previously on this forum she was banned for getting cought in her lies under the aliases "toomoxie", and "tinypoodles" perhaps others that im not aware of...im sure someone out there can fill in those gaps!


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## Olie

If there was a contract couldn't you have gotten legal advice over this situation? When did this happen to you? I seen the email was dated a couple years ago. NOT that you are not being honest as I am sure you are. I hate that this happened to you or anyone.


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