# OMG! How NOT to raise puppies....



## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

can you believe this disgusting mess? Do these dogs need rescued?

adults and puppies - labradoodles standard poodles by Solly


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yuck! Apart from the filth there is only one bowl between however many pups (how to teach resource guarding in one easy lesson), no toys, no different surfaces, no indication that the pups can even see out of the pen ... 

I suppose one should be grateful they are being raised on a soft surface rather than wire mesh or concrete, but how can anyone think these photos will encourage anyone but the most ill-informed puppy buyers?


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

This makes me sick! What about the sharp feed can lids? You should see his poor adult dogs in the other albums.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

:doh:

I'm going to go hug my dogs, now...


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## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

OMG! Those poor puppies! I cant believe they posted those pics on a website actually trying to sell them! This makes me sick and so very sad.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

That's appalling. The first few shots it kind of looked like puppies on a mucky quilt with what looks like bits of twig and I was prepared to give the breeder the benefit of the doubt (bitch could have been for a lovely walk in a muddy wood) but then there are ring-pull lids and what looks like bark chip used as flooring. If this is what this breeder considers a marketing image, I dread to think of how the dogs must look away from a camera. Poor puppies. :-(

Also, rat-faced mutts with poodle bodies and lab coats jumping on a fence above a food-strewn mud floor. Never mind silly 'oodle' names, I think 'designer' mutts like this should be called Labcoat Rats. Classic. I'm going to save that picture for the next time someone tells me that lab/poodle mutt puppies are cute, to show them what they grow into.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Your typical white trash back yard breeder.

Why not tell them how you feel? They have an easy contact us page http://www.labradoodlesandstandardpoodlesbysolly.com/contactus.htm


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Those poor babies. Makes my heart ache. I just want to give those puppies love!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

ugh. that's horrible.


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

The puppies have a chance to get out of there and have a better life. I feel sorry for the adults with a very bleek future.....


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

At least the puppies have a chance of leaving this place. The poor adults don't have much of a chance of leaving.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Those pictures are disgusting. First of all, where is the mother to clean up after these puppies. Where are the people to clean up after the dogs?! Why is it so dirty! I understand puppies can make a mess, but I fostered four puppies from 2.5-14 weeks and I made sure everything was clean!

These breeders refer to their puppies as "products" when listing their prices. They also state "So the prices we quote though not as excessive as others by far still must reflect a margin of profit. Purely business stuff to stay in business."

No wonder they are treated like pieces of meat.


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## dawns (Jun 29, 2010)

and why would you take pictures of that and put them online??? That makes me think someone just isnt right in the head. GROSS!!!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I agree with dawns - they are just not right if they would post this. It shows an abusive situation with the puppies being raised in filth. When I think of the two breeders that I purchased puppies from the contrast could not have been more stark. Sadly there are all too many instances of abusive situations toward animals you can see on the Internet. The fact that someone can post pictures like that with all their contact details and not have their animals removed and jail time or a least a fine is beyond me.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

I am disgusted! I have had litters of pups and we all know how much work it takes to have a litter...but these people consider themselves serious breeders?? They even say that some people have called them a puppymill - but they say they aren't! Broekn pallets for the adults; dirty dogs; messy areas in general...and then the poor pups!!! Makes me sick!

Sara


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## rjen (Apr 7, 2010)

It is disgusting. It isn't all that hard to keep babies clean. Belle and her pup are spotless all the time [granted she needs a groom her app is the 15th and the baby will go along for fft] 1 thing I've noticed is pups allowed to stay dirty are hard to housetrain are more likely to have accidents in their crates and if the females are kept for breeding make lousy moms. [just a generalization] I used to work for several kennels


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

There's nothing I can add that everybody else hasn't already said. How sad for those puppies. I can only hope they are being treated well otherwise, but it would seem unlikely.

I used the comment link to ask them to clean up the filth.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_There are so many things wrong with that I don't even know where to begin. But, most of it has already been said by the others here.

It breaks my heart. This is the quintessential example of a BYB on the verge of puppy milling. The conditions that these animals are in are deplorable. It simply is not necessary for dogs to have living conditions like that.

It is unbelievable that these people are ignorant enough to put such photos on the web for everyone to see, but I have to say that it is good that they do this. People can actually see what they are all about. I hope this is enough to keep most people away from them. 

Marketing!? They probably don't even know the meaning of the word. There is not one thing they have done to advertise their kennel and their dogs/puppies that is right here because just about everything they are doing is not right. "Look at me! I'm making designer dogs and getting rich on them!" :at-wits-end:

Dianne and I won't even put photos of our dogs on FB ungroomed unless they are actually out for fun to get wet and dirty and we say that is what they are doing. Those dogs are in serious need of grooming! Makes me want to cry.

I think a nice note to the breeders is a great idea! Who knows? Maybe they will have their eyes opened and actually fix all that is wrong with that situation......just dreaming, of course._


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

So, I know we are all disgusted, but who of any of us has done anything about it? Have any of you contacted them or anyone else about it? 
Easy for us to be angry, but what do we do about it. or what CAN we do? Are people turned in for these conditions, or is it looked over depending where you live? I really wonder about these situations, what can we do?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

spoowhisperer said:


> So, I know we are all disgusted, but who of any of us has done anything about it? Have any of you contacted them or anyone else about it?
> Easy for us to be angry, but what do we do about it. or what CAN we do? Are people turned in for these conditions, or is it looked over depending where you live? I really wonder about these situations, what can we do?


*I DID!*_ Right after I posted here. I sent them an email through their contact. I expressed my disgust with the conditions that their dogs and puppies are living in, questioned their testing protocol and whether or not they do any hip testing, mentioned the disgusting bucket with the scum line below the water line and wondered how that might affect their health and told them that every single photo showed dogs and puppies in filthy conditions.

And this!: Our standard poodles are either AKC registered or CKC registered like the Labradoodle. Seriously? I told them that both they and I know that it is not possible to register a Labradoodle with the AKC. 

Oh! And I mentioned that they are being discussed on a forum with over 3,000 members world wide and they might want to think about that.

Who else would like to contact them and challenge them?_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_*OKAY! * I got a response from Grandpa (Solomon) almost immediately. This is just so inane!_



> maam:
> Most of what you said is so out of date.I don't know how a site that I don't have or maintain is still in existence.I don't breed standards anymore and haven't for a while.As far as me being talked about on a forum whatever
> .One thing I will address is you are a puriest.That's ok,but when you said both dogs cannot be registered CKC you are completely wrong.I never said or even hinted that labradoodle can be registered AKC.Most morons know that already.But you can double register your AKC to CKC.So when you don't know what you are talking about you need to shut up.I will not answer to you concerning this matter.To me You were afraid to even say all but your first name. So ,you go your way.I will not respond to any thing from you or your pals. Maybe your e-mal address says more than you know rdcal. T. Solomon "Lucas' Grandpa"
> 270-642-2113
> To God be the Glory


_Don't that beat all? The web site isn't his but when I clicked on the contact button and sent him my message, he got it immediately. Interesting. Wonder what my email address says? Hmmmm?

Anyway, I wrote back and told him that if he truly wants to give glory to God, clean up your pens, equipment and your dogs. Calling me names is not going to put any better of a face on your operation.

I don't know....maybe they aren't his dogs, pens and equipment either. _:banghead:


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Yay! So glad you gave them a piece of your mind! I am tempted to do so also, am wondering if it does any good? They need to be exposed in their community, in their newspaper, and so on. Makes me tired and depressed just thinking about it, seem like these kinds of people always get away with this crap.


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

Hmmm, this is interesting. I was told he was in the market for a standard for his "friend".


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Liafast said:


> Hmmm, this is interesting. I was told he was in the market for a standard for his "friend".


_Well....now that just can't be good!_


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

ugh read their about us page. ..


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> Anyway, I wrote back and told him that if he truly wants to give glory to God, clean up your pens, equipment and your dogs.


Nothing against people being religious, but people who like to write about their gods in their email signatures are trouble. :-/


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Not only am I disgusted by their "living" conditions, but the fact that these are the photos they are posting online to sell their puppies? I am thinking people buy their puppies just because they feel horrible for them and want to rescue them!


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

Typical designer dog breeder IMO. 
Those poor things  good on you spoospirit for emailing them


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Yep....he sent me another message last night insisting the web site isn't his!! LMBO! But, you get the messages sent through it and respond to them! 

Here's the real kicker!! He offered to steer people our way if they are looking for a standard poodle if we don't charge too much. LMSBO! :argh:

No doubt a typical designer dog breeder and the must disgusting kind._


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

Well then, make sure you give him your contact # (just kidding)


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

OMG, that's just a mess. My heart aches for those dogs. 

His response to you speaks volumes regarding his integrity, maturity and character, and communicating with such a person is like spitting in the wind. Not productive.

I'll have to research the PM/BYB laws in his state, along with the animal regulatory type agencies (humane societies). I predict he's been reported before based on those pictures, as it doesn't sound like he's cleaned up his act!


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## supysmom (Oct 10, 2011)

do they have an aspca in kentucky? OMG. it says their standard poodle are AKC or CKC registered, is the AKC aware of these conditions? it seems like I see a lot of breeders using that destinction to sell puppies and I wonder if the AKC checks up on any of them.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I want to point out that the AKC is really just a money maker...while I support everything (most of it...) they do, they REALLY lack when it comes to disgusting breeders like this and puppy mills >.<

Good for you Debbie!! <3

And Zyrcona...I thought I was the only who thought that, I hate going to a breeders website and having to read about their religious beliefs. I'm pretty sure poodles are Non-Denominational ;D


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> I'm pretty sure poodles are Non-Denominational ;D


I dunno, Keith. My guys are constantly jumping up and raising their paws in the air.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

This is the response I got to my email:

Ladies:
The web siteyou are talking about hasn't been maintained for over a year.I haven't been breeding standards for over a year.My facilities aren't even the same as before.Iam well aware that youaren't going to believe me.CKC-AKC doodles.what I meant was exectly what is said.I explain this to everyone that wants to know.AKC parents.CKC puppies.CKC respects dual registration.Some of the things being said are assumptions.
I won't answer any more e-mails about this.You really need to check yourself
.You are probably not breeders.Just puriest that don't like the idea of mixed breeds.The first dogs were wolfs.How did we got all these so called pure breeds.Mixing and mixing this and that.
Please use your time to enjoy your families.Happy holidays 
Terry Solomon "Lucas' Grandpa"
270-642-2113
To God be the Glory

and when I sent him another message re: registration being impossible for a mixed dog, this morning I got a blank email from him. Sometimes there is no getting through to people.

And Keith, you are correct about the AKC and CKC. They are in the business of registering puppies and making money. With the CKC, even if a breeder gets fined and loses their membership over an infraction, they are still allowed to register puppies, they just pay the non member rate, which is double. BIG DEAL!


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

The CKC that is used in Kentucky is usually Contiental Kennel Club, they do not charge a litter registration fee and they will register ANYTHING.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Good for you, Cheri. He certainly show himself for what and who he is. The very fact that he would leave a supposedly dead web site like that up for a year speaks volumes in itself.

He appears to be a fake, a phony and hypocrite! To proselytisize ones faith in their emails on one end, but have a web site full of photos of their dogs living in deplorable and un-Godly conditions is the epitome of hypocrisy to me. My guess is that this person is not 100%. :amen:

Keith....I am a practicing Christian (I'm sure that is no surprise,) but, the last time I checked, my dogs were not baptized and do not go to church with me...LOL God forbid that they should try to sing in the choir with Dianne and I...LOL People don't need to put their religious beliefs out there with their dogs unless they are actually working them in something that is related to it. I believe that how people care for their dogs should speak for itself as to the type of person they are.

We are a very diverse people; some believers, some not. A non believer (and I know some well) can be and are as good a people as those who do believe. This would never come into consideration in selling our puppies to anyone. We are most concerned about their ability to love and to care for their pups._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Liafast said:


> The CKC that is used in Kentucky is usually Contiental Kennel Club, they do not charge a litter registration fee and they will register ANYTHING.


_This is very sad and disappointing news._


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am also a Christian and find it extremely offensive when some breeders (or any business person for that matter) use their faith to try to drum up business. I have seen web sites with scripture splashed on every page. Just because a person can copy and paste Bible verses does not make then someone you should trust in business. I got involved with someone like that and it was one of the biggest disappointments of my life. Not only did it affect me in our business proposition, it also hurt me as a human being that this person was not who they led me to believe they were.

I did ask this fellow if he meant the parents of his pups were purebred dogs who were properly registered and then the pups were registered with the Continental Kennel Club. I know they are a bogus registry and know the Canadian Kennel Club does NOT register mixed or unrecognized breeds. He sent back a blank response.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _
> We are a very diverse people; some believers, some not. *A non believer (and I know some well) can be and are as good a people as those who do believe. * This would never come into consideration in selling our puppies to anyone. We are most concerned about their ability to love and to care for their pups._


This is way off topic (sorry), but an interesting discussion. I also don't judge anyone on their spiritual beliefs or path. I judge their actions and how they treat others, including our animal friends.  

I don't believe religion/spirituality is an accurate measure of a person's integrity, character, honor, morals, or 'worth.' IMHO, there's no correlation between religious/spiritual beliefs and propensity to do harm or good. We've all seen people holding a Bible in one hand and $hitting on someone at the same time. There are total $hits in all corners of life--Christians, Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, Pagans, Catholics, Scientologists, etc. and so forth. On the flip side, there are remarkable people of all faiths and paths as well. 

A great many evil acts have been committed in the name of religion, and a great many 'believers' have committed atrocities against their fellow humans and animals alike. All one needs to do is turn to history and look up a few notorious figures, or examine a few crime lords, rapists, killers (Jeffrey Dahmer et al). 

So I'm with those who don't like seeing religious quotes and affirmations on e-mails and on business websites. (There's a chimney company in my area that uses religion to sell their services. I chose another company because I didn't like this marketing gimmick, which seemed to suggest they were reputable because they believed in God and could quote Bible verses.)


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

*Off topic-religious qoutes*

Well, I wasn't going to respond to this at all, but some interesting comments have been made. Zyrcona's original post about the religious quotes on websites and emails honestly offended me a bit...but let me explain. I for one, don't constantly spew Bible Verses over the web, but I have been known to post a few on FB as encouragement to a friend. I feel like that if a person chooses to use a Bible Verse in this manner, however, that they need to be prepared to display the UTMOST integrity, honor, and Christian attitude as they are displaying it for all to see. I know several local businesses that don't have it on their website, but if you communicate via email their signature contains a Bible verse. These people, though, are living out their faith. Not using it as a marketing gimmick,(Which I agree, is disgusting) We have another local business that in its commercial boasts that a certain percentage of sales goes to missions. That does rub me the wrong way. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I tend to feel like if a person/business chooses to post those Bible verses that is their choice, but I hold them to a much higher standard in their practices than I would otherwise and I generally will wait to see how they conduct themselves before making judgements. 

And, yes, there are "good" and "bad" people in all religions and those who don't believe. Some of the things I have seen Christian people do makes me cringe. Anyway, not sure I've said what I meant to say, but there it is 

Oh, and Grandpa as he seems to like to go by would NOT live up to my standards at all, just to clarify.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

The appropriate bible verse for Granpa Solomons's site? "Jesus wept".


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## Marciemae (Aug 15, 2011)

Just a thought......I googled and found this newspaper in the town where he raises his pups. Cunningham News - Topix

I wonder if contacting them or some other news agency in that area would do any good?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't think Zyrcona meant to be offensive, I know I didn't at all! I may not be a "true" believer but I feel everyone is entitled to believe in whatever spiritual ideals they may have and I'd never begrudge someone of that.

My issue with this is when a breeder has their faith SPLASHED across every page of their website, or they quote scriptures at people >.<

I apologize if my remark offended anyone


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

That's the reason I didn't reply at first Keith. I realize that no one meant to be offensive...but it can feel a bit like Christians in general are looked down on for expressing their beliefs in public. That's why I felt a bit offended(again, I know no one meant it that way) and that is why I hesitated to post.

I also agree that everyone is free and has the right to whatever belief system they have, whether it agrees with my own or not. I also agree that preaching at and quoting Bible verses AT someone isn't appropriate. Having a conversation and discussion and sharing both people's ideas and beliefs I see nothing wrong with. I don't agree with forcing it at someone. As I said in my post, I don't agree with having Bible Verses plastered everywhere if it is a marketing gimmick either. That offends me as well, as Grandpa's obviously do when viewing the conditions he has for his dogs and puppies. 


So, for those that might feel I am offended at your words, I don't feel personally attacked by your opinions by any means. I think it is just a result of a social climate that can _feel_ like Christians shouldn't ever voice their beliefs. Just wanted to clarify!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

apriljean80 said:


> That's the reason I didn't reply at first Keith. I realize that no one meant to be offensive...*but it can feel a bit like Christians in general are looked down on for expressing their beliefs in public. That's why I felt a bit offended(again, I know no one meant it that way) and that is why I hesitated to post.*
> 
> I also agree that everyone is free and has the right to whatever belief system they have, whether it agrees with my own or not. I also agree that preaching at and quoting Bible verses AT someone isn't appropriate. Having a conversation and discussion and sharing both people's ideas and beliefs I see nothing wrong with. I don't agree with forcing it at someone. As I said in my post, I don't agree with having Bible Verses plastered everywhere if it is a marketing gimmick either. That offends me as well, as Grandpa's obviously do when viewing the conditions he has for his dogs and puppies.
> 
> So, for those that might feel I am offended at your words, I don't feel personally attacked by your opinions by any means. *I think it is just a result of a social climate that can feel like Christians shouldn't ever voice their beliefs. * Just wanted to clarify!


Welcome to my world. As a practicing pagan (witch), I'm constantly asked if I practice black magic, support or participate in ritual sacrifice, or if I worship the devil. (People have even PM'ed me to ask as much, but thankfully not on this board.) I've also had to endure countless "Christians" proclaiming that I'm damned and that they'll pray for my soul. :doh:

I've grown accustomed to defending and explaining my beliefs/path, and often have to address the issue of "devil worship." The devil is wholly a Christian construct, and doesn't exist in my path. I'm not sure how I'm expected to worship an entity I don't even believe in, but that's a story for another day/another thread.  

I used to be shocked by the level of ignorance*** out there, but I've long since gotten past that. Nothing shocks me these days. I just smile and shake my head. 

For me personally, someone quoting Bible verses at me is akin to my inserting Lord Byron or Lord of the Rings quotes into conversations. It's distracting at best, and annoying/inappropriate under most circumstances. 

***Just so I don't cause an uproar, ignorance as in: _lack of knowledge, education, or awareness_ (Merriam-Webster).


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

This IS an interesting discussion. 

Any miconceptions I may have had about paganism were cleared up after reading The Da Vinci code and then researching on my own. I'm far more fearful of religious zealots than of practicing pagans.

I consider myself a religious person, and I am disturbed by the use of religion to promote ANYthing other than a particular religion or associated product. I'm especially skeptical of people who weild their religion like a weapon; they are some of the most intolerant people I know. FWIW, I understood where the members who disliked the religion on the web site were coming from, and was not the least bit offended.

People who have true faith don't need to sell their belief system to other people. True faith speaks for itself. And how we treat other people while in this crazy world is far more important than whatever formal religion one subscribes to (or doesn't subscribe to).


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I have to say that even though this discussion has come about due to the deplorable conditions in which Granpa's dogs and puppies are kept, it is also very eye opening and educational. It is so interesting to read everyone's point of view and, despite each persons beliefs, they all seem to end on the same note. It is in how we live and treat our fellow man that we are measured. Good is good and bad is bad. 

ROWAN: Ritual sacrifices and devil worship?!! Oh, my! Thank goodness you have learned from your experiences with the ignorant and handle it in a positive manner now. It's good for your sanity and they should consider themselves lucky.

I don't know if contacting that local paper will help or not. If is something to think about._


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _Ritual sacrifices and devil worship?!! Oh, my!_


HA!! And that's just her day job!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Rowan said:


> Welcome to my world. As a practicing pagan (witch), I'm constantly asked if I practice black magic, support or participate in ritual sacrifice, or if I worship the devil. (People have even PM'ed me to ask as much, but thankfully not on this board.) I've also had to endure countless "Christians" proclaiming that I'm damned and that they'll pray for my soul. :doh:


Ah, but you have that suspicious black poodle, don't you?!?!?

I'm devoutly atheist, but organised religion cracks me up. Usually.


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Rowan said:


> (People have even PM'ed me to ask as much, but thankfully not on this board.) I've also had to endure countless "Christians" proclaiming that I'm damned and that they'll pray for my soul. :doh:


They may now! :aetsch:

PS - I am agnostic, so I agree with your POV. Now, I am curious about Pagans.


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

I* didn't find the price quote on these pup, but in reading the "About Us"...they are saying worming and puppy shots....and feeding Diamond food is why the cost is so high....so I asked them....  We'll see if they answer.

p *


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

This has been a very interesting and surprisingly congenial thread (usually, discussions about religion and politics bring out the ire in people!!) I know it's off-topic, but since this thread has seemed to go that way anyway; I wanted to add my story about religion/spirituality.

I was born, baptized and raised Roman Catholic. I went to 12 years of Catholic school and also sent my daughter to the same schools I attended. Katy is now 21 years old and has been teaching me so much about spirituality vs. organized religion.

I have a deep and abiding faith in God. Katy has an equally deep and abiding faith in... something other?? She doesn't name it... maybe just the "universe"? She's a self-proclaimed "hippy" and believes she was born a few decades too late as she'd love to be in the flower-child era.

In another thread we discussed the Desiderata - a poem after which I try to fashion my life (if you haven't read it, DO! It's truly amazing!) There is a phrase in the poem that Katy has gravitated to and has made all the difference for her in the validity of the rest of the prose... the phrase is, "Therefore, be at peace with God, _whatever you conceive Him to be_." This allows people of most belief systems to conceive what is right in their hearts. For me, it may be the God who created the universe in seven days and sent his only son to die for our sins. But for my daughter, it may be the universe itself - with its unique energies and life, good and bad... 

People like the "breeder" whose business is what started this thread, don't appear have a deep _belief _in anything (unless it's making a buck) - it's superficial and crass to use religion the way they do. Organized religion vs. innate faith, weekly church services just because you "have" to vs. deep spirituality because you feel it... Katy is teaching me a lot!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I too am an atheist... and I live right smack in the middle of the "Bible Belt" as they love to say...cracks me up too.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> This has been a very interesting and surprisingly congenial thread (usually, discussions about religion and politics bring out the ire in people!!) I know it's off-topic, but since this thread has seemed to go that way anyway; I wanted to add my story about religion/spirituality.
> 
> I was born, baptized and raised Roman Catholic. I went to 12 years of Catholic school and also sent my daughter to the same schools I attended. Katy is now 21 years old and has been teaching me so much about spirituality vs. organized religion.
> 
> ...


_You have stated this so beautifully. It is something that I think about often but have never put into words as effectively as you have here. I feel strongest about the phrase that I put in red. I am a baptized, raised up practicing Catholic too. However, I do not believe there is only one way!_


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> They may now! :aetsch:
> 
> PS - I am agnostic, so I agree with your POV. Now, I am curious about Pagans.


Curiosity is great! It results in research and learning new things. 

I'm deleting any PMs from you! :aetsch: (J/K)



> Posted by *Plumcrazy*:
> This has been a very interesting and surprisingly congenial thread (usually, discussions about religion and politics bring out the ire in people!!) I know it's off-topic, but since this thread has seemed to go that way anyway; I wanted to add my story about religion/spirituality.


Oh, that's the truth. I've seen them get _really _ugly on another forum. It's refreshing to participate in a mature, calm discussion about the topic for once.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I've kept out of this conversation because I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said about the atrocious breeding practices or the (mis)use of religion by those who so obviously don't actually believe what they espouse. 

PlumCrazy's post about her daughter truly spoke to me. I especially like the comment SpooSpirit highlighted. Wouldn't life be grand if all could live by that philosophy...

Now, I'm off to pray for Rowan's soul  (or learn more about Paganism as I've always wanted to explore that belief system).


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I've kept out of this conversation because I can't really add anything that hasn't already been said about the atrocious breeding practices or the (mis)use of religion by those who so obviously don't actually believe what they espouse.
> 
> PlumCrazy's post about her daughter truly spoke to me. I especially like the comment SpooSpirit highlighted. Wouldn't life be grand if all could live by that philosophy...
> 
> *Now, I'm off to pray for Rowan's soul  (or learn more about Paganism as I've always wanted to explore that belief system).*


Please make sure no animals are harmed in this endeavor.  

I like that line too--but here's an improvement: 

"Therefore, be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him/*Her *to be."


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Rowan said:


> I like that line too--but here's an improvement:
> 
> "Therefore, be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him/*Her *to be."


Since I was quoting a piece that was originally written in the 1920s, I didn't want to editorialize. :lol: And, IMO, since this WAS written so long ago, I find it very tolerant and reasonable - here's the rest of the story, for those who haven't read it before:

"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, 
and remember what peace there may be in silence. 

As far as possible, without surrender, 
be on good terms with all persons. 
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; 
and listen to others, 
even to the dull and the ignorant; 
they too have their story. 
Avoid loud and aggressive persons; 
they are vexatious to the spirit. 

If you compare yourself with others, 
you may become vain or bitter, 
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. 
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. 
Keep interested in your own career, however humble; 
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. 

Exercise caution in your business affairs, 
for the world is full of trickery. 
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; 
many persons strive for high ideals, 
and everywhere life is full of heroism. 
Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. 
Neither be cynical about love, 
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, 
it is as perennial as the grass. 

Take kindly the counsel of the years, 
gracefully surrendering the things of youth. 
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. 
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. 
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. 

Beyond a wholesome discipline, 
be gentle with yourself. 
You are a child of the universe 
no less than the trees and the stars; 
you have a right to be here. 
And whether or not it is clear to you, 
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. 

Therefore be at peace with God, 
whatever you conceive Him to be. 
And whatever your labors and aspirations, 
in the noisy confusion of life, 
keep peace in your soul. 

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, 
it is still a beautiful world. 
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

LOVE it!! 

Barb


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I did not have the pleasure of reading this before. Thank you for sharing it again. It is very inspiring and helpful on so many levels._


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

Completely offtopic but I can't not comment on such a mature, interesting, thought provoking and toward the latter half of the thread entertaining in some parts read.

I can't add anything on the breeder that hasn't already been said, but I do have what may be considered a very narrow minded thought process of "string em up and burn em"!

On beliefs and faith, live and let live works for me. So long as no harm comes to anyone I couldn't care less what anyone chooses to believe in or not.


My only gripe are the kinds of people I meet all too often. As an example... 

My son-in-law has Cerebral Palsy and is wheelchair bound. When he was younger (13) and more impressionable we encountered a very kind lady in the street one day. She came up to my son in law and told him how God loves him and that if he prayed hard enough God would give him the ability to walk. Of itself it was in her mind a kind gesture I'm sure.

Unfortunately she didn't have to spend the next 3 years fighting to get my son-in-law to continue with physiotherapy, hydrotherapy and using his splints, gaitors and walking frames.

Before we met that lady our son could not walk far, 10 paces at most, but he could carry his own body weight for about 30 minutes and was able to do things independently. Now he is unable to transfer from his powered wheelchair into his manual one unaided, get dressed, go toilet etc. All because he did not keep up his exercises.


A rather long winded story but it idtentifies for me who are the kinds of people who upset me the most, they are genuinely kind and good intentioned but had they kept their opinions to themselves life would have been very different for my son-in-law. As for good intentions well the saying goes The road to hell...


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