# Benefits of in-/line-breeding?



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

It's very debatable... 

The theory is that by doubling back on good stuff, you get double the good stuff and a very predictable outcome; there is only one pedigree behind it so in theory it's a predictable outcome, and in theory a very nice outcome of a combination of a very good line doubling up.

Please note that line breeding relations to each other does NOT mean there will be deformities, though of course if there IS any recessive genes in that line then they will be doubling up as well and will be more likely to crop up. If there aren't those problems then line breeding won't cause them to be there though!

I am not against some form of line breeding personally. I don't like a close line breeding [mother to son/father/brother or father to daughter/sister/mother] as I personally feel that is too close, but I am not against the occasional line breeding to a cousin or grandparent/child, however I don't agree with continual line breeding and if a line breeding is done I feel the next one NEEDS to be an outcross to bring fresh blood into the pedigree.

The only problem with bringing in totally un-related bloodlines in an outcross is that ANYTHING can crop up. You have no real knowledge of what the mix of these particular dogs will produce, and you're likely to get a wide range of different types in each litter with no predictable outcome. Perhaps not a bad thing, but perhaps not an easy thing to work with either. You could repeat and outcross breeding and get something entierly different in a second litter despite it being exactly the same as the first one. A line breeding is more likely to produce similar results.

In the end it's very personal, many won't go NEAR line breeding and totally scoff at anyone who does it. Others do it a lot, and close. Others are in the middle like me, allowing it to some degree, but with 'rules' so-to-speak.

It isn't right or wrong per say, but I'd be very careful.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

worked well for the egyptian royal family thousands of years ago, didn't it?


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

faerie said:


> worked well for the egyptian royal family thousands of years ago, didn't it?


-like-
mmm I love a Cleopatra reference ;D

and I'm with Flyingduster, if the line breeding isn't excessive I can see where it has its benefits like producing exactly what you want from your lines (look and temperament wise)

but I've seen some pedigrees that are just a bit to close for my taste o.o


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Did it work for the egyptians? Studies of King Tut's body has found a large overbite, an elongated skull, slight cleft palate and scoliosis. He needed a cane to walk. His sister/wife had two still born babies- perhaps they had too many defects to be viable. (I was a history major.)

After I posted this I thought this may be an indictment of line breeding which I don't know enough about to give an educated response to. This human breeding was not a calculated mating of superior bloodlines (no slamming of egyptians intended). I know line breeding has been used in horses, cows and dogs often with great results but like anything moderation is probably best.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

lol i was just being a smart aleck.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I'm such a sucker


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

and i loved it. lol. human in breeding brings about some interesting things. 
i have scoliosis.
hmm .... :ahhhhh:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I also agree with Flyingduster. I do however think there is too much of it, particularly in the reds, because they had to do this to develop them in the first place. I am a huge proponent of low COI's, and if there is a lot of linebreeding going on, the COI's of resulting puppies could be through the roof. The Canine Diversity Project claims that if a puppy has a COI of less than 10%, it will live 4 years longer than a pup of 10% or more. I believe this to be true because I am now able, thanks to the Poodle Health Registry, to view the pedigrees and COI's of the Spoos I grew up with 30-47 years ago, and there is an absolute pattern. We knew nothing of high/low COI's back then, and the dogs from my past with higher COI's lived to be 9 or 10 years old. Lower COI's lived to be 13-16 years old. While this has been debated many times on this forum, for me, this is all the proof I personally need that this theory is correct.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Could someone define and explain coi's? I see the term a lot but no explanation. I'm sure it's something everyone else knows...but if don't mind...please do tell


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Ms Stella said:


> Could someone define and explain coi's? I see the term a lot but no explanation. I'm sure it's something everyone else knows...but if don't mind...please do tell


I believe COI stands for coefficient of inbreeding


----------



## jazzi480 (Sep 19, 2010)

I also agree with FD, as a former breeder of a different breed (collies) I have no real problem with in/line breeding, but to in/line breeding you REALLY have to know what is in the back of the line. If you you do a complete outcross you also have to do your homework, and have to know what you are trying to achieve. If you get too focused on a specific , head, body, color,ect, you can get into trouble. When I was breeding I used a combo, I line bred, but did throw in an outcross to see how my line would hold, then go back to line that was closest to my ideal. 
Would I buy a in/linebred? Yep, every breeder has an ideal in their head and will then breed to reach that ideal. 
Jazzi and Ella are a complete outcross and the outcome is very obvious in the litters. they are as different as night and day, in type, tempermant ect.

IMO, many breeders use in/line breeding to fast track their ideal. I have been out of the breeding dog world for almost ten years and there have been many inprovements in health testing that I did not have, we could only test breed for recessives, and that could make or break any breeding program.


----------



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

COI is Coefficient Of Inbreeding. The higher the number, the more 'common ancestors' there are in the dogs pedigree. By that I mean, if you have a dog, and look at the 10 generations behind it, there is the potential to have 1024 individual ancestors. But of course it's pretty much impossible for there to ACTUALLY have 1024 _individual_ dogs in those 10 generations, and infact there will be a fair number of individuals who crop up more than once, no matter how far apart they are in the pedigree there will be SOME double-ups in any pure breed dog (and of course, all THOSE dogs ancestors will be double-ups too, very quickly reducing the number of individual dogs in the 1024 spaces available in a 10 generation pedigree...)

So the COI system is basically a percentage calculation that's done on a pedigree, and the higher the number, the more percentage of their pedigree is the same. In the same way, the lower number has a lower percentage of their pedigree being the same dogs.

Please note though that it really needs to be done over a 10 or 12 generation pedigree, and that even 2 generations can make a HUGE difference. For example, Paris' COI over 10 generations is 2.83%, whereas her 12 generation COI is 5.76% (nearly double her 10 gen COI!) so be wary of a low 5 or 8 generation COI! lol


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I want a healthy, long lived dog, and value these over total predictability - and for that reason I am very uncomfortable with inbreeding (defined by the UK Kennel Club as parent/child matings), and with excessive line breeding (matings with another close relative). I fully understand why breeders do it to fix the characteristics of their line, but I am far from convinced that it serves to improve the breed long term. There is just too much evidence of concentration of recessive genes, auto immune issues, small litters and fading puppies, shorter life ... I would rather have a pup from an out crossed litter, with a low COI, as long as both lines are healthy and tested.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

fjm said:


> I want a healthy, long lived dog, and value these over total predictability - and for that reason I am very uncomfortable with inbreeding (defined by the UK Kennel Club as parent/child matings), and with excessive line breeding (matings with another close relative). I fully understand why breeders do it to fix the characteristics of their line, but I am far from convinced that it serves to improve the breed long term. There is just too much evidence of concentration of recessive genes, auto immune issues, small litters and fading puppies, shorter life ... I would rather have a pup from an out crossed litter, with a low COI, as long as both lines are healthy and tested.


My sentiments exactly!!

Anyone can go online and read the article on the Canine Diversity Project web site. It is very informative and educational. Canine Diversity Homepage Very informative info about COI's.


----------

