# Would like opinions on these pups



## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Number 1


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

the first one does have the better confirmation, but it's a poor photo at a bad angle to assess it properly... Are you wanting a show dog?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Are you wanting a show dog? If not, I would go for the right temperament first, then the one that my heart said "Yes!" to, and looks last of all.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I way prefer number 1 though from this angle it's feet appear to be pointing slightly easty-weasty. But, that is likely the angle of the photo. Nice square body, good top line, good length of neck, good coat...definately my fave.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Number one looks pretty and those blues are growing on me. I like the length of the coat on dog number two. What a difference from the other two.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I am liking number 1 the most now too, for pretty much the same reasons as above.
Would you mind sharing who the parents are ? and the breeder ?
A pm would be fine, I am just curious


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Out of the 3, I would go with number 1.


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## yigcenuren (May 3, 2009)

I'm wanting to do obedience, agility and possibly go into search and rescue. The pups have been tempermant tested and they are all amazing, willing, high activity girls. Because of the amount of work I am wanting to do with the dog, structure is very important to me. The breeder wants to keep one of the girls I've shown above un-neutered as insurance in case one of her 2 sisters (not the ones shown) that she wants to keep for her breeding program can't be bred, and I have a terrible feeling that it's the girl I'm interested in. (I have no interest in breeding. I'll leave that to you wonderful, dedicated people out there who KNOW what your doing).
That said, if it is the girl I'd like, I'd be willing to show her (with a proper handler) to 'finish' her. I'll have to really think about it though.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Monica


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Mary Jane is the breeder, right? IMO, she is in a much better position to evaluate structure than we are based on these photos. She is there and can look at them from different angles, and can watch them move. And she is Mary Jane, i.e., the Queen of structure! 

Are you relatively more interested in one sport than another? If you care about agility the most, I would go with the best front and the quickest rear second. (I don't do agility, but understand that straight fronts break down from all the jumping, and some rears are better for turning on a dime than others.) For obedience, I would pick the pup with decent structure and fabulous working temperament. For SAR, I would look for terrain courage, and an interest in using her nose. 

In all cases, I would tell a knowledgeable breeder like Mary Jane as much as possible about what I wanted, and look to her thoughts on the best match. She has been watching them for three months now, and how can that compare to three blurry photos?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

From a breeder/exhibitor's point of view and conformation wise I would go with NUMBER 1 puppy. I do find though that she is easty westy, which means that both her front feet point outswards instead of straight forward but this may just be puppy stance and immaturity .

You are right it is very hard to analyze and grade puppies via photos only but from what I see in here is PUPPY NUMBER 1 will be my choice.

Best of luck in choosing the right puppy .


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

OH IF Mary Jane Weir is the breeder than I definitely will stick with what she has to say, she is well respected and a VERY nice lady and she always says it as it is, no mincing words either.
She has been in dogs for over 40 years and is a maven in structure grading etc... Listen to her you will not go wrong.

She is VERY ethical and extremely concerned with the breed's health and welfare.

I have immense respect for her and her knowledge.


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## yigcenuren (May 3, 2009)

Feralpudel, your absolutely right! The pups have been at Beverlys most of the time and because of the summer heat Mary-Jane hasn't seen much of the pups at all. It's just such a hard decision for me to make, this being my 1st poodle and all. I know we'll love whichever one we get, but having the front 'break down' is a bit of a fear of mine.
Thanks for the input.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

My thoughts for what they are worth. Note.... it is hard to correctly evaluate puppies without putting hands on them and without seeing them move (looking is not doing as we used to say in horses). 12 weeks is also a hard time to evaluate puppies because they are growing at uneven rates.

#1 
Good Coat
Good start on a true Blue color
Good sternum
Good length of upper arm
Well angled in the rear
Well let down in the hock
Short in the loin
Good length of leg
Good bone to size
Nice feet
Good length of ear leather
Heavy head
Lacking length of muzzle
Tail set and carriage questionable
Lacking length of neck
I wonder how that neck ties in
Eastie/westie in front
I tend to like cobby puppies like this. However, so much of evaluating a puppy is knowing the lines. What does a puppy like this grow to look like as an adult?

#2
Nice start on good Blue/Silver color
Nice length of neck
Neck sets in well... nice carriage
Pretty head
Good length of muzzle
Looks like she might have better layback than #1
Looks like she might have good length of upper arm (or is it hair?)
Lots of coat. Looks soft
Seems short on leg (grooming issue?)
More angulated in rear than #1. Do front and rear match?
Longer in the body than #1
Good length of ear leather
This one is more over-done than #1 but I'm a sucker for a pretty face and pretty carriage. 

#3
Good length of leg
Nice length of neck
Given color of other two, I worry that this would end up a bad Black
Wonder how that neck ties in?
Coat looks soft
Topline?
Tail set and carriage?
Possibly down faced and seems to lack under jaw.
I think if this puppy was stacked a bit better in the rear, it would give us a better look at it.

Anyone else's thought? Do you agree/disagree?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Follow up to say....

If you want to do performance, find the bitch with the very best natural retrieve: quick ball, brings it back to hand with a sense of purpose. Even Poodles with less than perfect structure seem to be naturally athletic enough to excel at most performance activities.

If you want to show.... I choose #2. A pretty head and good carriage go a long way.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

cbrand said:


> If you want to show.... I choose #2. A pretty head and good carriage go a long way.


I thought maybe I saw a bit of a ewe neck on #2, but it is such a weird photo, it is hard to say. Or maybe I've been ringside too long, and suspect a ewe neck whenever I see high head carriage, LOL. 

I would like to see #2 stacked on a table. She appears to have a really nice shoulder/upper arm, but that can make them look dumpier/longer than square, especially as pups. I would also like to see feet, as I have a bit of a foot fetish. The first seems to have nice feet; it's hard to tell on the other two.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

I would pick #1. But having had LAST PICK, I can tell you that if you invest time and work, EVERY puppy will be OK. I got my black female LAST PICK. I also had no choice when I got my parti male. He was handed to me to raise. I never saw the other ones. I am not choosy when in comes to pets. I can groom then to disguise faults and I can train them and spoil them to whatever suits me. You choose who you like. Its all about the sparkle in the eye and who "speaks" to you.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

If these are Mary Jane Weir's litters and they are about four months old, they are the ones I temperament tested (on the day of the Ottawa earthquake!).
That day, I tested 11 puppies from two litters...one silver and one black litter, so they all kind of run together in my memory. But what I do remember, is that all but one of them had, in my opinion, wonderful performance potential. The one I hesitated about a performance home was a male.
Mary Jane is a structure guru and will not sell you a performance puppy that is poorly put together. In fact, I have a friend that Mary Jane wouldn't sell a certain pup to for performance because her front was too straight and she feared it wouldn't stand up to the stress. Listen to Mary Jane...she is honest and very, very knowledgeable.
Oh, and by the way, I like the look of #1!


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

cbrand said:


> My thoughts for what they are worth. Note.... it is hard to correctly evaluate puppies without putting hands on them and without seeing them move (looking is not doing as we used to say in horses). 12 weeks is also a hard time to evaluate puppies because they are growing at uneven rates.
> 
> #1
> Good Coat
> ...


Nice breakdown, Cbrand. 
It is difficult to really accurately assess and compare these pups, as they haven't been stacked the same way, but I have to agree with your assessments with what we have.
Mary Jane's silvers do have heavier heads...as my boy Troy, who was sired by one of her dogs (and I believe is related to the silvers here) , has. But, he never had any problem with a base narrow jaw! Easty/westy could be a poor stack or could be grown out of...I'd like to see another photo. I really like the angulation of #1...she looks balanced to me...nice, moderate front and rear...good for any type of performance.
I think #3 is from a different litter...there was a silver and a black litter. I noticed the snipey head as well...the only consequence with a snipey head in performance is the duck-holding ability! The blacks were all much more leggy, and the silvers were more solid. I'm drawn to the silvers, and I like a solidly built pup.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Before even scrolling down, Dianne and I looked over each and found that we are on the same page as Cbran for #2. She would be our choice of the three from the photos you posted for conformation. It is so hard to judge from a photo and a poor one at that. The pups could have been better stacked. 

We would have loved to see #3 better stacked as there could be potential there. Nice long neck but? Leaning back on the front legs and bad back end stack. She could be a lot nicer then she appears in the photo but who can tell. And the photo is really to dark to assess her color. If we were looking for an agility prospect, we would want to see better photos of this girl as she seems leaner and seems to have a lot of leg.

#1 Is definitely easty/westy looking in the front end to us. We wonder if that would be a problem in agility competition. 
_


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## Sutton Bend (Jul 28, 2010)

I want to express my thanks to all! I have my opinion as well (exactly as ordered in the picts. #1 first, #2 second etc.) I had a "gut" feeling, but it is so helpful to me to hear the assessments and reasons for the rankings- remembering of course the photos are not the best, and they are puppies. I appreciate the leg-up on my education- Thanks! Yigcenuren please let us know what you decide!


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