# Looking for Brown Toy & Miniature Breeders



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

You've got some pretty specific criteria which is limiting your options, but is understandable that you have preferences.

Your first best bet is to contact the Poodle Club Of America for breeder referrals. There's not nearly the number of breeders who do the PCA recommended health testing and specialize in your preferred colors, in your preferred area, as might be expected, so they're your go-to source.

PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

West of the Mississippi Breeder List
Microsoft Word - breeder_members_west_mississippi_may_12_2022.docx (poodleclubofamerica.org)

East of the Mississippi
pca_active_breeder_members_east_of_mississippi_march_17_2022.pdf (poodleclubofamerica.org)

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Not in your preferred area but Tintlet is a well-regarded breeder for occasional parti's.

To find breeders who title in conformation for parti's you'll need to look for UKC breeders.

Link to the UKC Poodle Club
www.unitedpoodleassociation.com

If you're interested, pop over here to view some pictorial threads.
(8) Poodle Rainbow | Poodle Forum


If anyone has some personal experience with a breeder that meets your criteria I'm sure they'll drop by.

One thing to remember is that brown (as with most poodle colors) is a fading color so few will keep their darker puppy color. It's always recommended to make health, temperament, structure, and soundness the top priorities.

Cafe and silver beige are generally born brown but one inherited copy of the fading gene will turn cafe and two copies will turn silver beige.

The genetic brown, like genetic red, will still often fade. This isn't due to age, just genetics.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
For example, some breeders require that a specific food be bought and fed, often thru them, or the health warranty is curtailed or voided entirely.

You're also going to find that breeders who are breeding to the breed standard will be trying for the upper end of each variety range, so toys at 10" and miniatures at 15". Both will sometimes go "oversize" due to genetics. That 13" middlish target is going to be hard to find since even the best breeders can't guarantee eventual adult size.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Your first best bet is to contact the Poodle Club Of America for breeder referrals. There's not nearly the number of breeders who do the PCA recommended health testing and specialize in your preferred colors, in your preferred area, as might be expected, so they're your go-to source.
> 
> PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


This is a great place to start.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Thank you for all the info! I did go through the thread here on breeders but am having a hard time locating any brown toys or miniatures. I have not contacted the Poodle Club of America referrals person but probably will eventually. 

I definitely was fairly specific but the simplified version is really that I’m just looking for a trust worthy, ethical breeder with browns/cafe au laits in either of those sizes.

Is brown a particularly difficult color to find or is more a matter of my timing right now maybe?

Honestly I’m kind of having some trouble locating many toy or miniature breeders (especially with darker colors) in my area at all. Lots of standard breeders it seems.

I do know that most colors fade, but I still love the look of a faded brown poodle! At the end of the day, I will love a poodle of any color, I’ve just wanted a brown for a number of years. Love the combo of the color with the brown points 🙂


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I think Adanac in Ontario has brown minis? I know nothing about them, but I see they have a brown dogs from/cobred with Amity Valley, Class Has, and Murrmaid in the US? Possibly more names there, but I only glanced at a few dogs. If you can find a breeder of brown toys (anywhere) you might be able to look at the pedigree and find a few more kennel names to look at, hopefully some nearby. 

Look for local kennel clubs/poodle clubs as well. 

I think the browns are beautiful too! 

Good luck!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It may be less the color itself and more that there simply aren't anywhere near the number of quality, conscientious breeders across the US and Canada that most folks imagine. I'd be surprised (happily) if there are more than 1000 all told, and I think that number is a big stretch.

This is a simplified chart on color breeding.

*Simplifying Coat color*











It can be difficult to understand the genetics behind coat color in poodles . This visual chart simplifies the often daunting task.
Please note , this chart is based on homozygous ( non-carrier), reference is made to the basic colors , it does not take into account the pigmentation except for the crosses with the color brown. Also it does not specify the % of given possibilities

HOW TO USE THE TABLE

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced .










The information directly below this chart in the following link is a more detailed explanation of the dominant vs recessive color genes.

Genetics behind Coat Color - Nova's Standard Poodles (weebly.com)


Even breeders with years of experience can be surprised by unanticipated colors in a litter. You most likely understand that you'll need to be on a waitlist but there's no guarantee that the color you hope for will be born in that litter. Higher and lower probabilities are what the breeder is generally working with. There are breeders who've stuck to a single color for decades using proven dogs for their desired criteria. Their surprise factor will be lower.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I think Adanac in Ontario has brown minis? I know nothing about them, but I see they have a brown dogs from/cobred with Amity Valley, Class Has, and Murrmaid in the US? Possibly more names there, but I only glanced at a few dogs. If you can find a breeder of brown toys (anywhere) you might be able to look at the pedigree and find a few more kennel names to look at, hopefully some nearby.
> 
> Look for local kennel clubs/poodle clubs as well.
> 
> ...


You're right. Minnesota has several miniature breeders.:
Amity, Adelheid, Allure, Absolute, Safranne, I may be forgetting some.

They're not all focusing on brown but may have some occasionally.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

Best of luck in your search. I too love brown poodles. I bought a rusty orangy brown pup with black tips to his fur who has now faded to a pale creamy orange. I adore him, but do sometimes dream of a little brown girl joining our pack!

He has faded since this pic was taken. Still kept his dark puppy ears. I comb them daily and never shave them.


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

Ah browns …well at least you know they fade , or clear , I think with browns it def a case of fade , no idea what ours will end up looking like .
Our other dog is sable , not poodle and it’s taken him 5 years to (I think to finally ) settle on his coat colour , from starting off black with gold areas .
Puppies mum is cafe au lait , there were black in litter and a brown , but most were apricots and cream .


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Tulsi said:


> Best of luck in your search. I too love brown poodles. I bought a rusty orangy brown pup with black tips to his fur who has now faded to a pale creamy orange. I adore him, but do sometimes dream of a little brown girl joining our pack!
> 
> He has faded since this pic was taken. Still kept his dark puppy ears. I comb them daily and never shave them.
> 
> ...


Adorable! That coloring reminds me of a Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier's coloring ☺


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I can send you a list of reputable poodle breeders in the Southwest (I am the breeder referral person for the Enchanted Poodle Club). You can email me at [email protected]. My email is also on the Enchanted Poodle Club web site. Depending upon where you are located, there are some poodle clubs in Colorado who might provide even more information.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> I can send you a list of reputable poodle breeders in the Southwest (I am the breeder referral person for the Enchanted Poodle Club). You can email me at [email protected]. My email is also on the Enchanted Poodle Club web site. Depending upon where you are located, there are some poodle clubs in Colorado who might provide even more information.


So sorry it took me so long to respond! I would absolutely love that! I will email you, hopefully that’s still ok.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> It may be less the color itself and more that there simply aren't anywhere near the number of quality, conscientious breeders across the US and Canada that most folks imagine. I'd be surprised (happily) if there are more than 1000 all told, and I think that number is a big stretch.
> 
> This is a simplified chart on color breeding.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the info! I definitely know I’ll probably be on a waitlist for a bit which is part of why I’d love to establish a connection with a good breeder now. I’m not unwilling to go for other colors, it’s just my “dream color”, if you know what I mean. Obviously color isn’t everything.
I’m sure you’re right about the limited amount of good breeders. Makes finding a responsibly bred poodle kind of tricky for sure!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Noodle_Poodle said:


> Makes finding a responsibly bred poodle kind of tricky for sure!


It can be a quest but we've also seen more than couple of right place, right time encounters. 

If you have questions about any breeders, it's within the forum rules to ask for personal experiences or an assessment based on available info. It's not unusual anymore to see a breeder using the language of a quality, conscientious breeder but not putting in the work to back those words up.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I've no idea whatsoever if I could find the information, but somewhere in (I think) the 2007 - 2010 timeframe, I was standing ringside in Vallejo (was it Woofstock? I don't recall; sort of think not, but ?), and a very pretty young brown Toy suddenly entered the ring, causing almost gasps amongst the cognoscenti watching - and a good deal of questions on who she was.

She was lovely, still very young, and clearly a surprise to onlookers due to her color. I think she was maybe still in her puppy coat, but half of me thinks she was in a Conti - I just cannot recall. So pretty, for sure. Wonder if I could hunt her up...


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> It can be a quest but we've also seen more than couple of right place, right time encounters.
> 
> If you have questions about any breeders, it's within the forum rules to ask for personal experiences or an assessment based on available info. It's not unusual anymore to see a breeder using the language of a quality, conscientious breeder but not putting in the work to back those words up.


Perfect, thank you! I have contacted a breeder that looks very reputable and is actually only about 40 minutes away from me but we’ll see if I hear anything back. Have you heard much about Harmony Miniature Poodles? She’s the breeder I contacted.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I have no personal experience but I like what I see on the website. They partner on occasion with another well known breeder, Clarion, they're health testing and posting on OFA, they show their dogs to prove them.

They're recommended by a long term member, Spindledreams, who hasn't been around in a couple of years, and noted as the president of the Columbine State Poodle Club. (I don't know if this is updated from the PCA, but it's on their site too Columbine State Poodle Club - The Poodle Club of America )

I'd definitely follow up with this breeder. Being that close is a fabulous bonus!


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> I have no personal experience but I like what I see on the website. They partner on occasion with another well known breeder, Clarion, they're health testing and posting on OFA, they show their dogs to prove them.
> 
> They're recommended by a long term member, Spindledreams, who hasn't been around in a couple of years, and noted as the president of the Columbine State Poodle Club. (I don't know if this is updated from the PCA, but it's on their site too Columbine State Poodle Club - The Poodle Club of America )
> 
> I'd definitely follow up with this breeder. Being that close is a fabulous bonus!


I thought so too!

Do you know if it’s common to not hear back after the first contact or to have a long wait for a response? She seems like she’s probably a very busy person. I sent her a hopefully not too detailed email. The gist was that I really like their breeding program and a little info about: our household/lifestyle, what we plan to do with a future pup (training/activities), my love of the breed and our experience with poodles and general dog ownership (which is quite high). Also that we won’t be ready for a new pup until our current senior poodle is no longer with us. He’s my priority and I really want to cherish the time I have left with him. Plus, a puppy would be torture for him. I know we probably don’t have a ton more time with him (he’s 15 with progressing dementia and what I believe is PRA, but regardless he has lost most of his eyesight). I also know that waitlists can be long. I also filled out her questionnaire.

I’ll definitely follow up. I’ll probably wait a couple of weeks to see if I hear anything back, then send a follow up email, wait a while longer and if I still haven’t heard back then maybe I’ll give her a call. Does that sound reasonable?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Noodle_Poodle said:


> Do you know if it’s common to not hear back after the first contact or to have a long wait for a response?


It's not unusual at all. Breeding isn't usually an income-generator for quality, conscientious breeders. It's more of a calling. They'll be busy with regular jobs and family. They may be preparing for a show, or other activities involving their dogs.



Noodle_Poodle said:


> I’ll definitely follow up. I’ll probably wait a couple of weeks to see if I hear anything back, then send a follow up email, wait a while longer and if I still haven’t heard back then maybe I’ll give her a call. Does that sound reasonable?


I wouldn't go more than a couple of weeks between contact, and it might be best to go straight to a phone call next, just to touch base "do you have some time to talk" or "when would be a good time for you?" and follow that up with an email. Quality breeders will want to get to know you some, and email, while convenient, doesn't really give that immediacy.

Once you connect and you both get a feel for each other, then you both have a better idea about each other.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> It's not unusual at all. Breeding isn't usually an income-generator for quality, conscientious breeders. It's more of a calling. They'll be busy with regular jobs and family. They may be preparing for a show, or other activities involving their dogs.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't go more than a couple of weeks between contact, and it might be best to go straight to a phone call next, just to touch base "do you have some time to talk" or "when would be a good time for you?" and follow that up with an email. Quality breeders will want to get to know you some, and email, while convenient, doesn't really give that immediacy.
> ...


Yeah, I’m also concerned that my email could have gone to her junk folder or just gotten lost in her inbox. Thank you so much for all the advice, I really appreciate it!


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## CheetoMom (3 mo ago)

I got Cheeto, my red mini through Penny at pjapricotpoodle in Portland Oregon. His mom is a red mini and the dad an apricot mini. Though Cheeto is on the big side. Cheeto had faded a little now. He was darker in color when we first got him.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Did you find a new baby yet? Ash's Mystical in NV has a beautiful cafe female mini available atm.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

CheetoMom said:


> I got Cheeto, my red mini through Penny at pjapricotpoodle in Portland Oregon. His mom is a red mini and the dad an apricot mini. Though Cheeto is on the big side. Cheeto had faded a little now. He was darker in color when we first got him.


Omg, Cheeto is the cutest name! 🥰


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Did you find a new baby yet? Ash's Mystical in NV has a beautiful cafe female mini available atm.


Thank you so much for letting me know! Unfortunately I’m not quite ready for a new puppy as I won’t be looking to take one home until my little senior mpoo has crossed the rainbow bridge. He’s 15 and I know he doesn’t have a lot of time left. A puppy would be torture for him, plus I want to spend what time he has left focused on him. 🥺

I have connected with a really awesome breeder here in CO but if it doesn’t work out with her I’ll definitely be looking into Ash’s Mystical. They look like beautiful dogs!


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Once you connect and you both get a feel for each other, then you both have a better idea about each other.


I just want to thank you again for all the advice! I really appreciate all of your help. I’m going to meet with Susan from Harmony Poodles and visit some of her poodles in person so we’ll see if it’s a good match and if she’ll have any litters with available puppies in the nearish future!

You’ve really helped me out though! Thanks so much!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Noodle_Poodle said:


> Perfect, thank you! I have contacted a breeder that looks very reputable and is actually only about 40 minutes away from me but we’ll see if I hear anything back. Have you heard much about Harmony Miniature Poodles? She’s the breeder I contacted.


Harmony in Colorado? Susan Francis is certainly reputable. She and I had some conversations this past year because I was thinking I might breed my miniature bitch. If she has any puppies available they would be of excellent quality.

Ooops - I typed this before I saw that you are, indeed referring to Susan Francis. I hope you are able to obtain a puppy from her.


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## Noodle_Poodle (5 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> Harmony in Colorado? Susan Francis is certainly reputable. She and I had some conversations this past year because I was thinking I might breed my miniature bitch. If she has any puppies available they would be of excellent quality.
> 
> Ooops - I typed this before I saw that you are, indeed referring to Susan Francis. I hope you are able to obtain a puppy from her.


Me too! I really like her breeding program from everything I can see online. I would absolutely love one of her puppies! Fingers crossed!


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