# Puppy Socialization Window?



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Lumi just turned 16 weeks a few days ago, and in looking back over her months with me I'm feeling a lot of regret. Before I got her I planned to be the best puppy mom ever! I waited almost a year to find her and had such high hopes of raising her well. I even posted here when I bought her at 5 weeks about how excited I was for her to grow up and get here! But then, after only a week with her, I was so overwhelmed. She was a wild thing and I thought I was totally failing. I got so freaked out about the fear stages and that she'd get scared of something and then be traumatized so we hardly ever went out. Not to mention the fact that she wasn't fully vaccinated yet, she hated being in the car (cried and screamed) and simply could not grasp the concept of walking on a leash and not chewing/tugging on it. Now, I can't believe how fast that socialization window has flown by and with a only a handful of trips to pet stores and friends' houses. 

We just got back from a walk in which she did mostly confident happy walking, but also a good amount of frightened skittering between my legs with her tail down. The garbage trucks were out, there was construction on several houses we passed, and the leaves were blowing around like crazy. So maybe it was just a very scary day, but I can't help but think this is the manifestation of a lack of socialization. Also, in the past week she's developed a new behavior, of at least once nightly, growling and barking at seemingly nothing. Sometimes it's just the creaking of the chair I'm sitting in, anything will set her off. And then she's determinedly frightened for several minutes or longer until I can distract her enough. Actually, while I'm typing this she just went off barking at I don't know what! 

Anyway, I'm just wondering what others' experiences have been with puppy socialization and fearful behavior. Do some puppies just go through a spooked phase? Has anyone managed to socialize a puppy that missed out on that crucial window? Is 16 weeks well past it, or is she still highly open to accepting new things? I'm sure kicking socialization activities into high gear now will still give us greater benefit than waiting any longer, since she's still a pup. I just wish I'd done a better job! I thought I was so prepared, but then was totally shocked by how demanding puppy raising really is!! I wish I could do it over again. : / If wishes were fishes...


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

She is a puppy, a very young puppy. She is supposed to be wild and crazy and naughty and not listening …. She is just being a puppy. You can still do a lot with a 16-week-old puppy. I think the biggest mistake was you hardly went out with her because she's scared. She can go out after she has her 2nd shots. It doesn't mean she has to walk on the ground if you don't feel safe. You can hold her or put her in a carrier and go to an outdoor cafe. Let her see different people, listen to different sounds, get pet by strangers. If she stays calm when seeing new people and experiencing new sound, praise and treat. If a kid wants to pet her, tell the kid she is a baby and to be gentle. Tell the kid to give her a little scratch under the chin, on the chest but not on the head. Give the kid a treat to give to your puppy so that she knows all these are good things. Take her to a nearby playground or elementary school to watch children play so that she can get used to running and screaming kids. Take her to Home Depot so that she can see men with weird tools around their belts, men wearing baseball caps, sunglasses, and men who talk loudly. Again, once she stays calm, praise and treat. Ignore her (no need to scold or comfort her) when she cries and screams. Do the same when she's in the car. 

BEFORE she's got her shots you can put her in a carrier. AFTER she is fully vaccinated, you have to let her walk. She needs to be treated and raised as a dog. No carrier, no stroller. Continue to do all these with her on leash on her own feet.

When Nickel was very young, one time when we walked down the street, there were 10 or 12 skateboarders went right by him REALLY fast. I was scared too and let alone a 14-week-old puppy. He froze and refused to walk and refused any treats. I was so worried. I seek advice from my trainer and I made a post here. I got some very good advice. I continued to take my boy out, with high-valued treats and squeaky toys. I didn't for once hold him or baby-talk him. I just walked and eventually he followed reluctantly. But he froze every time he spot something with wheels - skateboards, rollerblades, shopping carts… I took him to Home Depot and we stood by the rows of shopping carts at the entrance. I stood there with him and let him watch people taking the cart as they got in. He was scared when he heard the sound but I continued to stand there. As soon as he was less frightened, I praised and treated. I went to Home Depot and Lowe's every other day that week and he's good. Now he can walk by bikes, skateboards as if they are not there. He's not scared and he shows no sign of fear nor aggression towards those wheels and he doesn't chase after them. 

It can be done but you have to be proactive. Be creative. Take her to walk in the rain. Let her feel how it is like to be walking on wet grass, gravels, mud, all types of surfaces.

Have you started her in puppy kindergarten? She needs to meet other puppies and learns how to play and behave.

Don't overwhelm her (and yourself). Puppies need to sleep at least 18 hrs. Take her out a little and then let her take a nap.

Good luck! It takes time but I am sure she can make it and you can make it through the puppy stage.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you so much Schnauzerpoodle! I absolutely agree. I should have taken her out more, that's why I'm posting. She's got (almost) all her shots now and we've been going for walks for the past few weeks, but very few car rides to places. Fortunately, I have a grooming shop in my home, so she's met LOTS of people and dogs and made tons of friends! : ) We've also been going to puppy kindergarten once a week for two weeks. Tomorrow will be our third week. Until this past week, she's been a very happy and outgoing girl. Scared of very little, if anything! The only thing she's had fear/anxiety about is the crate, which was why traveling in the car was so hard. I no longer feel overwhelmed (well, most days! haha), but just regret for not doing more during the weeks that were the hardest, and most crucial. : / I'm wondering if this past week of her being randomly afraid of nothing is a typical puppy thing, or a sign of an undersocialized puppy. 

A friend had told me I could take her to Home Depot, but it wasn't until you just described it to me that I realized what a wonderful source of unusual sights and sounds it is! Thank you!


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

Quality over quantity is best with socialization, her experiences outside on walks and seeing other dogs/people should be as positive as they can be. Its good that she is scooting between your legs and not barking yet, she is looking for comfort and reassurance in you rather than trying to defend herself and ward off the scary things.

Start out by taking her to quiet places and work up to busier places at her pace. 
You could hold her during walks but try not to pick her up if she is already scared, that would reward her scared behavior. 
Frequent rewards for happy behavior are good, noticing something is ok to reward as long as her tail doesn't lower and she doesn't move away from it. Play, toys, treats, pets, good girl etc. 
I used a feather on a pole/rope cat toy and it worked amazingly for Jaden as a distraction and reward. This was how I was eventually able to take him down doggy row in the neighborhood when he was a puppy.

Its best to end any socialization on a good note. Taking her out of any situation completely while she is scared will set the tone for the next time. Try and get her happy again or at least relaxed on the sidelines before leaving or going inside. I find it hard to do this with chance encounters or sights of other dogs or people so its good to have friends willing to help out.

Barking at noises at home, you can either be ready with treats or set up the situation and try and throw a treat to her during/after the noise before she has a chance to bark. As long as she notices she had gotten a treat before barking its ok if she barks before eating it. Everything should be positive reinforcement and there should be no "no's"

Edit: this could be a "spooked phase", they could be very short or a bit long but keeping things low key and positive is a good idea, taking a break from socializing during this time is sometimes done to prevent setbacks. Jaden went through a couple periods where he was spooked easily when he wasn't before, they lasted maybe a day or so but were noticeable. I think I remember it was around 15 weeks and 8 months.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Home Depot and Lowe's are the jackpots for puppy owners  When puppies are so young, even they have had all the shots, I try to avoid taking them to places with high volume of dog traffic, like Petsmart. Start going to Home Depot on a weekday then a weekend when it's busier. Just go by every lane and watch her look at the ceiling fans, the weird kitchen settings, the power drills, … A lot of customers take their kids with them during weekends - another wonderful opportunity for your pup to meet new people. Don't forget to take her to outdoor gardening area in Home Depot. Oh, and stand near the automatic doors and let her see how those work.

Meeting people in your grooming shop is good but she also has to be in different settings. New place, new people, new smell, new sound, new lighting…. If you know when your UPS delivery guy or mailman comes by your building, take your pup to meet them so that she gets to see people in uniforms + sunglasses and walking fast with boxes, etc. 

As for the crate, put the crate in the kitchen or living room - an area with high traffic in the house. Leave the door open. No need to force her to go in. Feed her meals INSIDE the crate. Other times, throw in some high-valued treats in the crate in front of her. If she gets in the crate to get the treats, praise her and offer her more treats but never close the crate door. Let her go in and out. Then, without letting her see, throw in some treats in the crate. Those are surprises for her! She will love them! She will soon realize that crate is a lovely place full of yummy treats.

Then take the crate to the car. Again a lot of yummy treats in there. No need to drive around. You can sit by her crate in the back seat. No need to baby-talk her. As soon as she settles down in the crate in the car, throw in more treats. Then you move to your driver's seat. Ignore her if she cries. Praise and treat right at the moment she stops whining. No need to go out on the road at first. One step at a time.

Give her some alone time. Sometimes you can turn on the TV to some sports channel. Let her hear those cheering during a basketball game, etc. There are a lot you can do, indoor or outdoor. Be creative. Make it a fun and positive experience.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Catsaqqara, quality over quantity makes me feel a little better. Until this past week, she's had hardly any negative experiences with new sights and sounds! She's accepted almost everything with a wagging tail! That's why her recent behavior has puzzled me, and got me wondering if I've "missed my chance" by not doing more.

Fortunately, I am always ready with treats. : ) They're scattered in every room and she has a reward marker, the word "Yes". So anytime she does something correctly, like not barking when she notices something, I can mark and reward her! : ) 

Thank you again Schnauzerpoodle for all the wonderful suggestions. : )


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Poppy was nearly 16 weeks when I got her, and had lived a happy but limited life in the depths of the country with not many visitors - nothing like the range of experiences your pup has already had. I had good advice from a local trainer/behaviourist - very similar to what people have said above. Take it at the puppy's pace, don't force her, and keep it happy and positive. I kept working on it - Poppy seemed to have enough fear periods for a whole litter, and there were many times when we seemed to be going backwards, but I kept telling myself that by the time she was two she would be fine. And a few months back she was two, and yes, she was - and is - absolutely fine!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

5 weeks is too young to take a puppy from its mother, the minimum recommended age is 8 weeks or later. If you take them too early, they can miss out on crucial socialisation with other dogs (learning how to behave with siblings/mother). The later the better, although the window for socialising with other things is up to 12 weeks, after that it's slightly harder because they are wary of new things after that

As far as socialising with people/places/etc... the posts above pretty much cover it already!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

ladybird said:


> 5 weeks is too young to take a puppy from its mother, the minimum recommended age is 8 weeks or later. If you take them too early, they can miss out on crucial socialisation with other dogs (learning how to behave with siblings/mother).


I don't think the pup was taken home at 5 weeks - just paid for, and left with her mum and siblings till she was old enough to leave them.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Fjm, thank you SO much for Poppy's story!! I'm getting it in my head that anything done now will be too little too late, and that this fearful behavior is just her adult personality. It's so nice to hear about a happy well-adjusted dog whose major socialization began after 16 weeks! As everyone on here can see from the pictures and vids, Lumi's had a lot of exposure to new and strange things..in the house!! We didn't go out much and we've got to get moving on that while the weather's still nice, and she's still as young as can be!

Catsaqqara, I just realized Jaden fear period at 15 weeks coincides with Lumi's! that's comforting, even if hers seems to be lasting longer. She woke me up at 6:30 this morning growling at who knows what. Yesterday morning, too. She didn't used to be this way. We have to get back to happy-go-lucky Lumi!!

Ladybird, you're right, I should've specified! I bought Lumi at around 5 weeks and she came home at 8. : )


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*pammipoodle*: First, I can tell by watching your terrific videos you are doing a fantastic job with Lumi! Secondly, "motherhood" entails a good deal of self-doubt and second guessing; try not to go there! There are no "perfect" puppies and no "perfect" owners; being the best you can be at any given point in life is a more realistic goal, and it gives you license to be, well, human, and not perfect! You still have every opportunity to ease Lumi past her fear points, following the great advice already offered will most certainly do the trick.

Puppies do go through fear periods. I think the way we react to them during such episodes, with our own energy and body behavior, goes a long way to helping them build their confidence. What I'm saying is that dogs, poodles in particular, feel our angst and upset very readily. If we feel badly about something, they sense it and it impacts their emotional state and behavior. When you keep your tone of voice upbeat, when you walk with your head held high, the confidence you project is felt by your pup. When a pup has confidence in our leadership (because we ourselves do), they respond in kind.

You have not blown anything! It's wonderful that Lumi is so well socialized to having visitors and other dogs in her home. I saw with my own eyes in one of your videos the delight and wonder she takes in the great outdoors, enjoying the leaves and the grass and the many scents there are to explore. I don't think you should be at all alarmed, concerned or in anyway down on yourself. She is still just a little baby, learning, moving forward then backsliding then getting up the gumption to go forward again. That's quite normal! She will be fine, I just know it! I want you to be too. I truly think you are a fine poodle pup mom, and I very much want you to feel that way about yourself!:hug:


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you, Chagall's Mom. : ) I know I can be a pretty good mom, and I have my moments, but I feel like I really missed out on a lot of opportunities during these last 2 months. I was very hung up on expectations, and thought, for example, if she's still jumping and biting at 10 weeks, she'll be doing it forever. Either I've failed or she's incorrigible, and then I just got hung up on everything I was doing wrong, or everything she was doing that I didn't like. I don't want to say she was doing anything "wrong", because a puppy can't break rules she doesn't know yet! 

Anyway, I was so stressed out, that I was not even myself most of the time. I don't know if it was the fact that I finally asked a trainer to come help us (which still hasn't happened), or that she's mellowed a lot and is much less constant work, or if it was just the alignment of the stars, but I *finally* feel like myself again and can see so clearly the things that were fogged by my emotions these past two months. I just want a do-over! : / I'll feel a thousand times better if/when this growling at the wind proves to be a fear stage that passes, and not an anxious streak I've given her because of my own anxieties. As they say (I forget who!) "The virtues of the dog are his own, his vices those of his master."

But, coulda, shoulda, woulda. I don't have a time machine. If I'm giving up the anxiety about her future I better not replace that with anxiety about her past! You've been a big help - you all have! Thank you! 

I'll keep you all posted. : ) And perhaps I'm just being paranoid yet again. Lumi's still a happy girl 90-95% of the time. She's just so easily startled lately and really distrusting of her environment. Perfectly normal things that she's experienced from day one (like the refrigerator kicking on), just spook her! I suppose, if things don't get better, I could always get her ear plugs. ; )


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Both of mine went through a phase of suddenly feeling they were responsible for guard duties at around that age. I had jackdaws trying to nest on top of a drain pipe, and Sophy barked every time one dropped a twig - and jackdaws drop a dozen twigs for every one that sticks! Just keep calm, show her by your own behaviour it is nothing to worry about, and remember this too shall pass. Next week it will probably be umbrellas, and the week after that men with big hats. Just keep building her confidence, and she will be fine.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you, fjm. Can you tell this is my first puppy? : P I've got a lot of toys handy and when she gets nervous about something I can usually squeak a squeaky to get her attention, and then play the fear right out of her! She also, fortunately, knows "mellow" which is to lay all the way down, head and all. Sometimes when she picks up her head at a noise, I ask her to mellow and she plops her head down for a treat. I've already seen her several times notice a noise or movement and pick her head up for a moment, then drop it back down! She's such a quick learner. : )


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Pammipoodle*: I hope it makes you feel somewhat better to know that my confident, two-year old poodle, with his framed Canine Good Citizenship certificate no less, has decided to be afraid of my new leather cross body handbag! I usually carry a purse the size of a suitcase, so I thought I'd give my aging skeleton a break and get a small one to use when I walk Chagall. He pulls away from it like it's a flame thrower,:target: refusing to heel close, even for liver treats! Feel better now? :neutral:

I will slowly desensitize him to it, using liver and chicken and bits of apples (he loves them), and will play ball with him while I wear it. So see, even us "experienced" pup moms cannot prevent or foresee every trepidation or fear our poodles might develop.:fear:

I still say you are being unduly hard on yourself; you have in no way sabotaged or done irreconcilable damage to Lumi's confidence. She well may be in a fear and high alert stage that she'd have entered _regardless _of whether you'd been the Mother Teresa of Poodles the prior two months. I wish I never grit my teeth and fumed in frustration when Chagall was a wee pup and I "expected/wanted" more of him than his short time on earth could possibly allow.:mean: Even knowing he wasn't a Chia pet who'd grow up overnight I still at times was terse (okay, pretty much a meanie) :mad2:about his lapses in listening, or being sufficiently bold enough with things I'd already exposed him to (such as the Fed Ex truck, though in all fairness to Chagall, the guy does drive like a raving maniac!).:driver: Taking a step back, reinforcing what's already been taught, and cutting ourselves some slack should all be in the puppy mom/dad manual!:biggrin1:


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Chagall's Mom, animals are so silly like that! You've got to wonder what they are thinking!! Maybe he'd prefer to switch to the vegan lifestyle? ; )

I just know that I could have done SO much better. I've wanted a puppy since I was 10 and waited for years and planned and prepared for this perfect opportunity, and then I just fell flat on my face! I became overwhelmed and avoidant during what I thought would be my dream come true. *sigh* Life's never what you expect it to be. Like you, I wish I could've been more patient and understanding. But, hindsight is 20/20. It's easy now to say "She was just a puppy being a puppy. Nothing to worry about!" But at the time when I'm getting bitten and jumped on, deprived of food and sleep, unable to find a free moment to do my dishes (or the energy to do it when she was finally sleeping!), living in a house that smells of Nature's Miracle (that wasn't so bad, actually..), and terrified that this will be *forever*, it's not so easy. : P

Let's also add to the manual that the time just FLIES by, even though it may not feel like it!! So much happens so fast and if you blink you'll miss it!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I look back and cringe at some of the mistakes I made with my first pup - and she grew up into a happy, confident little dog. You and Lumi are learning together - not least learning what hard work being and raising a puppy can be! It is because we have all been there, done that, and had the t-shirt chewed and peed upon by a puppy that we can reassure you now. Now start preparing for the teenage months ... !


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