# Making of minis & toys



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I can't authoritatively answer your questions, others likely will. Just sharing a link that might shed some light on them.
Poodle History Project
Of possible interest Diminutive dogs


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> My second question is how was the European moyen created?


Poodles originate from Europe, so the size was always there....... it actually makes no sense to me why the "English speaking world" does not include this size


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Poodle History Project has great info & from what I read the Mini/Toy is actually created from small white dogs. Not genetically related to the Spoo. Spoo has very different diseases than the Toy/Mini. Moyen/Klein you will have to read up on from overseas.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I have looked at the Poodle History Project website, and it gives forth various possibilities about the origins of toys and again mentions the Maltese, which makes me thinks there might be maltese somewhere in the creation of toys. Since standard and miniatures have been around so long in Europe, I don't know if we will really understand where minis came from. Since the health concerns are different somewhat for minis and standard, I can believe they have a slightly different genetic background. I just wish we know more.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Isn't it possible they are all the same just different sizes from breeding??

Look at us - humans come in different sizes, colors, and hair textures. People of different races have different diseases, people within the same race but different regions have different diseases.

Couldn't it be as simple as a small standard was bred with another small standard and the offspring were small or smaller?

That's what I would like to believe.


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## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

I would think that was the case, too. When I was growing up, we had a toy and a mini. Except my "mini" was 18 inches tall. He could sit on my lap and rest his head on my shoulder.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Luce said:


> Isn't it possible they are all the same just different sizes from breeding??
> 
> Look at us - humans come in different sizes, colors, and hair textures. People of different races have different diseases, people within the same race but different regions have different diseases.
> 
> ...


This is what I believed also, but then why do some people say we should never cross a mini with a standard, and others say if you want a klein, get it from Europe because that is a different dog from the miniature. I am leaning towards the idea that a smaller dog such as a maltese or havanese was bred to a small standard to create a poodle mix which was then bred back to a small standard poodle. Then it was bred down in size by breeding only small poodles to small poodles. Just a theory that sounds possible to me. I do not mean to insult any size of poodles here.


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## MrsD2008 (May 26, 2014)

An article I read states that the smaller standards were bred, to give minis, and that the smallest of minis were bred to give toys. ukKc states that all three have the same diseases, maybe I am wrong


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