# Should I fire this trainer?



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m no expert but I wouldn’t personnally mind citronella on the back. And it worked. Much better than having a dog barking the whole time and disrupting the class.

If it had been in the face or around the face, then yes, I would have been really upset.

The fact that she uses mainly positive reinforcement is a good thing.


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## Lorib64 (Dec 28, 2017)

Thank you for responding. That makes me feel better aboutthe training


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I fired a trainer for tethering Buck to a tree allegedly to help with his exuberant greetings. If a harmless spray (Is citronella harmless?) worked and I was told that was what she was going to do before she did it, maybe. Unconventional, never heard of it, but kinder than many methods. Shock and extreme smell awe and reward for getting the desired behavior. Let us know how lesson two goes!


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

I had this problem with one of Kit's trainers. It depends a lot on the dog's personality. My dog Lucky is very sensitive. If someone did that to Lucky, I probably would not have been okay with it. Kit is a bit on the exuberant side but I would be wary of citronella because the smell is very strong deterrent for dogs. I would have used water before using citronella.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

The trainer at our obedience club gave the owner of a very barky schnauzer a spray bottle of water. He got the message very quickly!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Like Snow and the others have said, it depends on the dog. Watch carefully during the next few classes. Go with your gut on this. Better to lose money on classes than to lose your relationship with your dog. I'm leery of adversives. What I think I'm correcting, and what the dog thinks I'm correcting, may not be the same things. 

The dog might be barking because a larger dog is giving him the stink eye. A quick spray may teach the dog to be even more frightened of larger dogs, and more likely to bark. Or the dog might be barking because this new environment is overstimulating. Adding a spray may make that worse, not better. Overstimulated and afraid of getting sprayed, now the dog is even more overstimulated. The dog might not bark, but the feelings of being out of control are still there. 

Tread lightly. Trust your gut. Trust your dog. If it feels wrong, leave.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I equate the new wave, no negative reinforcement clique with the no correcting children clique. It does not work for all. I have been around for a long time and soon I will leave this world. In my youth dogs and children were a lot better behaved and children went on to successful employment. Both dogs and children respond well to the combination of both positive reinforcement and negative, where they understand the reasoning. If a dog or child deliberately rebels against reasonable correction then there must be consequences. No consequence for bad behavior means more bad behavior. Some will respond to positive reinforcement only. You need to use the word "NO" and mean it.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is a very minimal correction to use citronella like that. There are citronella no bark collar that spray the dog in the face so over the back no biggie to me.

I also agree with Eric that the current trend of only positive based reinforcements is a pendulum swing that hopefully will recenter as we learn more about how dogs learn. I use a combination of reinforcements and am careful about the circumstances for positives vs. aversives. If a dog is learning something new then encouraging the dog to repeat correct behaviors by giving a treat, a click, a positive verbal marker or a break to play is the way to go. On the other hand if the dog knows a behavior really well and ignores orders then a correction is in order. The correction doesn't have to be a punishment but it does have to clearly tell the dog they were wrong.

Here is an example of a correction situation. I had five teams in my novice class yesterday. One of them was my mom with her mpoo and the other was a friend who Lily has known for eight years. Two dogs were new in my class and I had noted they were having attention problems. I brought Lily out to demo a couple of attention games and of course on the way into the ring she had to go say hi to my mom. I allowed her to but when she failed to come when called the first time I went and got her by the collar and made her come with me. That was a sufficient correction for that situation. The next time she looked at my mom and friend who were sitting outside the ring chatting (since they didn't need to see the demo) I only had to tell her to get close when I saw her thinking about another visit. Had I allowed her to ignore me the first time I would have been reinforcing ignoring orders and she wouldn't have set up at heel when I told her to the second time she thought about leaving.

Here is an example of how you can use a learning experience to install a correction. This is how to teach a forced retrieve. You start by putting your hand through the dog's collar and hold its ear between you thumb and index finger with just enough pressure to be a mild annoyance. Hold a treat in your other hand and push the dog's nose to the treat and let go as they take it. By doing this you teach the dog that having their ear "pinched" is not a bad horrible thing, but later you can use that technique as a way to offer a correction for a failure to retrieve by gradually adding the dumbbell with the treat and then removing the treat and just having the dog reach for the dumbbell.

Finally here is another thought on the issue of corrections. You are on your front lawn with a toddler age child who takes off to get a ball that has gone into the street. What are you going to do? Positive method: please don't go in the street little one. Corrective method: you run up and grab the child by the arm and say a loud and firm no going in the street. Instinct says grab and yell for nearly all of us and you better believe that that lesson will be very clearly remembered by the child. Dogs are not so different.

I would continue in the class. One session barely scratches the surface of what the instructor knows. If all the dogs in the class are new to it and to the facility then it sounds actually like a pretty darn good training opportunity since nothing horrible happened and the trainer is confident enough in their abilities to offer refunds.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Catherine, I'll keep your ear pinch method in mind when we get to that point. It's a great way to teach a forced retrieve. Now do you have any suggestions on getting Zoe to give me her ball after she retrieves it? She eventually does drop it near me, but that can take awhile.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Johanna said:


> Catherine, I'll keep your ear pinch method in mind when we get to that point. It's a great way to teach a forced retrieve. Now do you have any suggestions on getting Zoe to give me her ball after she retrieves it? She eventually does drop it near me, but that can take awhile.


Lily was a very rudely mouthy youngster and much to my regret I had taught her to drop balls when she brought them back to avoid her teeth all over me when I took it from her and was preparing to throw it again. She translated that to dropping the dumbbell about 6 feet away from me 100% of the time, so Ididn't even have a way to shape the front with it in her mouth the force fetch fixed it super fast. I will never teach another dog that I think I want to do obedience with to put things down like that again! 

Since ball fetching is a great game to use to install the retrieve foundations for obedience I would make sure you either have a treat to give or another toy to trade (like a tug to play on) and only allow her to have the treat or the tug for placing the ball in your hand. You may need to be quick to sort of catch it as she starts to release it from her mouth to get the point across. Or if she is motivated to hang onto the ball you can tug on the ball a bit.

Johanna you may find two threads I have had going for a long time related to performance training to be useful. Here are links to each of them.

http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...g/241714-intermediate-obedience-workshop.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/205393-javelins-road-ring-ready.html


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Good advice on the ball issue Lily! I doubt I will ever have time to do obedience with Shae, but have heard about people having difficulties with the dumbbell retrieve ranging from the dropping a long ways away to not naturally wanting to pick up the dumbbell to begin with. Knowing that, I have been a bit more particular about fetch than probably the average pet owner for “just in case”.

I instructed DH firmly when we got Shae that he was to never command and allow Shae to drop the ball in front of him. The word drop was never to be used either (I’ve heard of it being used for a quick lay down). She retrieves well and loves fetch, but she gets into moods where she does not want to give it back and wants you to chase her. So I either end the game completely or we do the exchange for a treat when the ball hits the hand paired with the command “give” or “let go”. Since Shae is a counter-surfing-find-stuff-to-steal type of poodle, the exchange for a treat ball trick has applied well to when she has something naughty too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I, personally, have a huge problem with citronella and the citronella collars. 

When I worked in a pet store we had a fair number of them returned due to owners saying either their dogs had wheezing attacks or the humans did, when the collars were set off. I was processing some returns of the collars to the manufacturers one day when another employee, goofing around, set off the collar. 4 humans and 2 dogs evacuated the office rather quickly, all of us wheezing and coughing all the way. 

I was still reacting that night and Iris had a couple of severe sneezing attacks as well. I needed to shower and bathe Iris in order for this breathing problem to stop.

We did also carry collars which just dispensed a poof of canned air as a correction to barking dogs and we never had those returned.

Just my experience.


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## ApricotsRock (Jan 10, 2014)

Off topic but I think it is unbelievably sweet that Lily had to go see your mom. What do you mean I can’t go get nana love?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*On Retrieving*

Ownership of the ball is a strong motivating factor. Grace and I play ball retrieve with a "chuckit" aid. She will attempt to catch the ball taking off with great speed and arriving at her calculated point of interception before the ball. If not in time she will take it on the first bounce. She hates to have to grovel for it on the ground LOL. On her return she will canter and trot back to me, waving the ball in the air, as if to say "my ball, I caught it nana na nana" I made the mistake of teaching her to place the ball between my feet. Now she places her head between my legs and drops the ball after a pause. Her height is such that this can be an embarrassment in public. One girl I know saying "do you both enjoy that?" LOL She likes to play fetch inside catching it about 90% of the time. In this game she has made the rules. She never crashes into furnishings or people. She will stop and desist to achieve this. On the return she will NEVER give you the ball in hand. She will place it balanced on the arm of a chair or behind you sitting. I think she is saying by this behavior "I will not surrender my ball but I will allow you into my game with conditions" She has a very advanced sense of ownership and anything I own will not be touched. If I put down my meal on a plate she will ignore it totally unless I point to her and then the plate saying "Gracie eat" Same with items of clothing She will leave my shoes alone unless I say "fetch daddies shoe". Her own toys she will take as she wishes. When given a new toy or bone she has to have the toy offered and be told "Gracie's bone" etc. It then becomes hers. She will sniff it from end to end and take it carefully. I think this "ownership" thing is that which hold dogs back in the retrieve.








Eric


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