# Uncontrollable on walks (+some whining about positive training methods)



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I train with rewards (food, attention, game, release to do what they wanted, etc, etc) rather than force, and have none of the problems you describe. While the dog is learning the behaviour, the treats come frequently; once it is well understood, the rewards are used to polish it by rewarding just the "best" responses, or quickly faded to an intermittent, and eventually just occasional food reward. What you describe is simply poor or non existent training - done right, positive reward training has been proven in trials to be equally or more effective than forceful methods, with less physical and psychological damage to the dog. It may take a little longer, but is worth it in the long term!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Please read progressive reinforcement in training forum. Can't link, on phone


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

chibi,

i think maybe one can say behavior is a continuum and many things come into play, among them genetic disposition and environment. while i'm sure many studies do show that "positivity," as you put it, works, i seriously doubt that any study can claim to show that it works all the time for all dogs. even b.f. skinner's associates, who went out into the world and trained every animal in sight, ended up discovering that there is something they dubbed "instinctual drift," where a behavior they hoped to train via positive reinforcement got overtaken by an inbred behavior. google dancing chickens and i think you will find a discussion of this. there's a reason trainers talk about "proofing" dogs and training requiring constant practice.

i personally think people who give a treat every time for desired behavior and don't move to praise as a substitute do often make it harder to ensure that the dog is reliable re a behavior. we've had a few people at pf complain that their dogs won't do anything unless a treat is involved. and, as you point out, there is the problem of the dog that is not food-motivated. 

there are other tools than click and treat to stop leash pulling. one is turning in the other direction every time the dog pulls and thereby teaching it that pulling gets it exactly the opposite of what it wants. of course, it didn't work on my dog! so i'm only offering it as one example. other people use nose halters, choke chains, pinch collars. these sound like instruments of torture, but in the hands of someone skilled, they can work and don't have to harm the dog in the way some claim they always do. much depends on the dog and the handler. there are pf owners who will tell you gentle leaders (nose halters), which are supposed to be "harmless," absolutely did not work on their dogs and panicked some dogs. and others who will tell you pinch collars did work and that they tried them on themselves first to make sure that, as claimed, if used correctly they did not hurt the dog. 

for me the bottom line is that you can't take any one claim about what works and believe it is gospel. let me tell you how my female dog taught my male dog not to go after my hands (not to bite, really, but that was his way of telling me after putting up with being brushed to now use those "doggone" human hands for their real purpose - getting a treat for the dog): the female was fairly new to the household and older than the male, but quickly become the top dog. she was up on my mother's bed after having been brushed. i had finished brushing out the male and he was doing that go after the hands ritual when suddenly there he was pinned against the dresser with the female's muzzle up against his neck. she did not bite him, she just threatened to do so and he knew exactly what it meant. it happened so fast everyone was in shock, especially my poor boy. i believe the female thought he was attacking me and that was a no-no. what i can tell you is that the male never again used that ritual - he never went back to it even though the female had to be put to sleep in 2005. now had he had a different temperament, perhaps there could have been a very bad fight involved. so to me there are pro and con arguments to simply copying what dogs do to each other to "teach."

the other thing to keep in mind when you question some of the training methods you are seeing (as in, putting a dog into a "down" in the face of aggression) is what jean donaldson herself said: it is possible to be a certified trainer (for positive methods) and be incompetent. it is also possible to be a trainer who uses punishment and be competent. she obviously would like to see all positive trainers be competent, but just as obviously she knows not all are, or she wouldn't have said what she said. 

my own view is that the best way is to read widely to learn what training tools are available, do constant reality checks, and use the least harmful method that will get you and your dog to where you need to be. if "positivity" works for you, go for it. but recognize there are variants. ian dunbar, for example, mr. no touch puppy training himself, never lets his dog "win" at tug by retaining the tug toy. playing "tug" is a treat, and he controls the tug toy - when he thinks there's been enough play, he says "thank you," the dogs let go, and the toy gets put away. frankly, for me, that's incredibly controlling. but that may be the point he is making. i don't know. it just doesn't sound like much fun for a playful dog that loves toys. 

let us know how long it takes you to get your dog to walk on a loose leash. mine wouldn't for years (i know, bad owner). i finally got to the point of shortening the leash and sticking my leg out in front of him when he pulled. let me tell you, it's still a work in progress, and i think one reason is that my dog feels safest at home and is always looking for the quickest way to get there. that's my own home-grown dancing chicken example.


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## J.Bosley (Feb 1, 2014)

I used to train without using treats, and just expecting the dog's to do as I asked because I was "the leader". Then I started going to a training facility that does positive reinforcement using the clickers, the same facility used to do no treat training as well. They explained why they switched:

Not only is reward based training proven more effective, and quicker results, but think about this... do you go to work just because? Nope! You get paid to do so, which is like a reward :act-up:

This made a whole lot of sense for me! I don't ALWAYS use treats... it depends on the dog and also depends on what kind of distractions there are. Sometimes food can be the best motivator, sometimes it's praise and sometimes it's a toy! Just depends on the situation and the dog.

Remember you can always ween off of treats!

You could also search for a behaviorist! They don't usually do training with you, but help you get to the route of the problem.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

When I am training something new or having Swizzle do something difficult I do use treats. I phase them out as the dog gets more comfortable performing the task. The treat is not always food. Sometimes is is tug or I throw his toy or he gets a pat. Food is powerful motivator and I don't see why it can't be another tool in the toolbox.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Treats all the time forever should never be the goal. I use treats fairly heavily when teaching and then fade them out and substitute life rewards like petting and verbal praise. A run of good responses gets free play with a ball or a tug. If I know the dog understands what it is being told to do and am getting the brush off from the dog then I will use a negative reinforcer to remind the dog that being compliant about this behavior is not optional.

Lily is smart enough to understand delayed gratification at this point in her life. She knows she will get paid, but not for every little thing. She will work a long string of behaviors with little reward other than "good girl" because she likes to work with me and know there is a "jackpot" at the end. If we don't get to a point like this in training then we can't do an obedience routine or an agility run. Actually though, for her, the good run is its own reward.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Chibi said:


> Uncontrollable on walks
> 
> I should do obedience training, right? Well, I went to check out a dog training center that was near me a while ago _(I was adviced to do so here on the forum)_, watched as people were training their dogs and left before they were finished. *The WHOLE training system was based around TREATS, TREATS, TREATS and click, click, clickety click. **Perhaps Im old fashioned, but the training system that uses treats (all the time) to get a dog to pay attention to you teaches them to pay attention to you WHEN you happen to have treats. *_(And just imagine a dog that doesn't respond to treats, especially outside!!!)_ Besides, I was appalled by the fact that they were giving the dogs the 'down' command when a dog would approach them, which I find not only unnatural, but also highly dangerous if a dog that is agressive is forced to go 'down' when another dog approaches, or a shy and insecure dog does this to an agressive dog _(that will end up seeing it as weakness and a reason to attack). _
> 
> ...


By your comments, I can see that you're not understanding this kind of training. When there are problems, it's almost always because people don't understand some of the finer details, such as the difference between bribing and rewarding along with other skills. Your mocking tone comes off as rather uninformed. 

A dog that is lying down does not necessarily give an aggressive dog a reason to attack. It is actually a calming signal which has a good chance of avoiding a conflict. But that's beside the point. 

As far as a dog not motivated by food, well...I've worked with loads of dogs and most dogs are motivated by food if they're not stuffed to the brim before a training session. Food is one of the few primary reinforcers. In other words, it's necessary for survival. It's how it is used that makes the difference. We need to feed our dogs, right? I mean, I figured I'd need to feed my dogs before I signed up for this. The question is, _when_ to feed the dogs...timing. If one food is not tasty to the dog, find another. I can feed them when they're hungry and when I like a behavior they're giving me. But sure, food is only one kind of reinforcer. It's very handy in certain tasks because it can be eaten quickly...when you're working with a behavior that needs to keep on going. But of course, there are all kinds of reinforcers; toys, games, letting them go sniff the bush they're straining to go to (after they give you some slack in the leash...show me some self control, then your reward will be to go sniff the bush) 

I don't know what you mean by all the neurotic dogs in this positive training world. Dogs trained correctly with PR are light years away from neurotic. They're normally much happier, show a happier countenance and learn better because they tend to offer more behaviors which raises the odds of opportunity to reinforce, which _drives_ the wanted behaviors. 

Now, watch this video if you will and tell me what's wrong with this training.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

chibi,

sorry for the fact that you were labeled "uninformed." hope you have not been chased off pf.

treat fading is more common than constant treating, but there are "trainers" who insist on treating all the time and i do consider them incompetent.

in addition, as to putting a dog in a "down" when encountering an aggressive dog, i witnessed a pitbull mix that approached a chow puppy. the puppy did not like it and growled. the mix went ballistic and started barking and lunging. the chow puppy immediately rolled on its back, which is the ultimate appeasement gesture, and the aggressive dog got worse. its owner fortunately did have hold of the leash and had to drag it off - it was still lunging trying to get at the puppy and caused the owner to slide and fall in the mud. the fact is that appeasement behavior only works if the other dog is sufficiently "socialized" to other dogs. the theory may be fine, but the effective implementation depends not just on your dog, but the other dog, as well. 

and by the way, i had warned the owner of the pitbull mix that her dog did not understand dog "talk," and there could end up being a biting problem. she refused to believe me.

bottom line: learn as much as you can, but don't let others intimidate you into thinking your concerns are "uninformed." in the end, it's your dog and you have to trust your gut.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Chibi, 

"Uninformed" is not a swear word or a label or an insult. It very simply means that you don't know enough about something, haven't received all the information needed... and I think _that_ is why you're frustrated and don't think click/treat works. _No one _can be informed about everything and there's no shame in it. But by some of your inaccurate comments about this kind of training, I could see you were leaving out some very significant pieces of information. 

So, I had hoped you'd take a look at that video and even ones that are posted about freestyle dance. They're very fun to watch and you will see how click/treat, treat, works, how well it works. Yes, with any dog. Not that some don't follow the laws of behavior...laws as sure as gravity causes an apple to fall off a tree is a law of physics, behavioral law works across the board with some variations in things such as motivators, levels of distractions and so forth. But you can see some very complex behaviors taught to dogs using these methods, so surely a dog can be taught things like walking nicely on a loose leash when all the "i's" are dotted and all the "t's" are crossed. And there are behavior consultants and trainers right here willing to help as best as possible when it's the Internet and things can't be seen in person.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Treats all the time forever should never be the goal. I use treats fairly heavily when teaching and then fade them out and substitute life rewards like petting and verbal praise. A run of good responses gets free play with a ball or a tug. If I know the dog understands what it is being told to do and am getting the brush off from the dog then I will use a negative reinforcer to remind the dog that being compliant about this behavior is not optional.
> 
> Lily is smart enough to understand delayed gratification at this point in her life. She knows she will get paid, but not for every little thing. She will work a long string of behaviors with little reward other than "good girl" because she likes to work with me and know there is a "jackpot" at the end. If we don't get to a point like this in training then we can't do an obedience routine or an agility run. Actually though, for her, the good run is its own reward.


Thank you Lily. I think you and I probably have similar styles but we are also involved in the same activities 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Whether we show or not, we all should have the same goals. I just had a conversation yesterday with a colleague who is going through puppyhood right now. She had a bunch of questions that I was happy to spend time talking with her about. The important thing is for people to seek advise when they need it.


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