# Base narrow lower canines redux



## ziggylu (Jun 26, 2010)

I am posting this thread because:

1) I need to vent my frustration

2) Many potential puppy buyers come to this site looking for information and I want to share my experience with this condition as it seems to be often dismissed as "not a big deal" that will "fix itself" or be "Fixed easily by manipulation"and be "nothing to worry about." While this may be case in many cases, it is not ALWAYS the case and when it is not the case it is frustrating for the dog and the humans and it is *expensive* to deal with. Based on my own experience, I wish breeders would take this condition more seriously - particularly if they are selling into pet homes in addition to show homes - and work to breed this out of their lines rather than accepting it and continuing to breed lines that exhibit it.

I am just home from the dental specialist with Cosmo. He has to have the appliance put back in for three more months because his right lower canine has shifted back past his upper teeth again and is back into the roof of his mouth. I cannot express the frustration I feel about this and how upset for my puppy(to be a year old in 3 weeks) who has had nothing but mouth issues and pain since his puppy teeth emerged. Beyond the expense that will be involving in doing this again, my poor dog has had nothing but pain and discomfort in his mouth for most of his life. And despite our best attempts to fix it for him he keeps finding himself with pain in his mouth. 

In his case, the puppy teeth DID rupture the palate of his mouth, with food getting embedded in the holes in his mouth and risking infection. He was also clearly in pain from this. He did need his baby teeth removed. This may not be the case for all puppies but for him it was the definitely the only way to go.

It was clear as soon as they emerged, the adult teeth would not be coming in properly. Even if this often happens, it does not ALWAYS happen and Cosmo is an example of this. In his case, manipulation and "ball therapy" did not move them back out, particularly on the right side which came in with no angle whatsoever. It was clear he was going to need the appliance at least on that side as soon as the teeth erupted. 

He wore the appliance for 8 weeks. within 8 more the right tooth had shifted back and that's where we are now.

Needless to say none of us - human or canine - are happy.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

I'm sorry for you and Cosmo, and sorry I do not have any helpful recommendation. 

Proper occlusion is important, especially in a "retrieving" breed.



> "... I wish breeders would take this condition more seriously - particularly if they are selling into pet homes in addition to show homes - and work to breed this out of their lines rather than accepting it and continuing to breed lines that exhibit it."


I applaud your appeal to the breeders !


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

ZiggyLou,

I urge you to register Cosmo's BNJ with the Poodle Health Registry! It's one of the easiest ways to disseminate the information widely and quickly. Only owners can register their dogs, so this is your chance to both appeal to a wide audience of breeders and to not be dependent on Cosmo's breeder to get the word out to owners/breeders of related dogs.

I'm so, so sorry you and Cosmo are having to go through this. Not fun for either of you!!

If you have any questions about PHR registration, please give me a shout!

Nancy
Poodle Health Registry
Poodle Health Registry Database


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

I guess the big thing is at what point is it really considered base narrow? 

Ex- at 8 weeks Bella was 'base narrow" gone at 10 weeks we never did anything. Breeder kept right on top of it. 

Friends top JRT litter- 2 pups were base narrow at 8-10 weeks. WEnt to specialist because the vet was freaking out over it. Specialist went "what are you doing here with a dog that age who is base narrow? Ig nore it- it grows out of it" 

So yes with the majority of dogs it IS just something they go through in a growth period. 

Now if we're talkin about Base narrow in the instances where dogs are base narrow past teething. Then yes- i think it needs to be registered, or in cases like yours where it went to the severe end of the spectrum. Then it needs to be watched. 

In bella's case me and the breeder had a game plan in place before she came to me. We knew at 8 weeks she was a bit base narrow. We had both agreed to a plan ($ and care wise) that both of us were very happy with. I did end up with an extra vet visit or two to keep an eye on it but nothing ever came of it. HER base narrow doesn't bother me- nor would keep me from seeing that breeding be repeated. 

however yes in Cosmo's case i think it should be recorded and if it was something seen consistantly in that line (IE if 1/4 the litter had it- or that cross has beenr epeated and it's been seen again and again) that the cross shouldn't be repeated


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

Oh no! I am so disappointed for both you and Cosmo!!!
Most everyone here knows that Ruby also had to have correction for this condition. Like Cosmo, she had her baby tooth pulled, the manual corrections and the ball therapy as the permanent tooth was coming in but STILL ended up having to see a specialist! Specialist placed her in braces as the first attempt to reshape the erruption pattern of the emerging permanent canines. (Two months of pure **** having a teething puppy that is not allowed to chew on things!!!!!) Thankfully, this initial correction was enough to correct the problem!!!! We did not have to have the incline plane put in!!!YIPPEE!!!!!!
Ruby is now one year old and things are still fine! I brush her teeth EVERYDAY so I'm inspecting her mouth constantly! Sure hope nothing shifts!
Going through this ordeal is expensive and nerve wracking! I totally agree with ziggylu about breeders taking too casual an attitude about CBN. If it is so rare that this condition requires extensive dental correction and it is most often outgrown, then why not ask the breeder if they will show faith by providing financial support , SHOULD THE CBN REQUIRE PROFESSIONAL CORRECTION?


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

I'm so sorry to hear this.
I too cannot believe this is downplayed amongst breeders and that poodle buyers tolerate it.

It has completely turned me off buying a pedigree dog again to be honest.

My pups breeder did not even give full and accurate disclosure of the issue to me. I had to go digging around to find out anything about it!

Furious is an understatement.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I am sorry for poor Cosmo (and for you, too, Ziggylu). I hope the breeder is ethical enough to not breed either parent again.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is a very old thread, and the OP hasn't been around in quite some time. So to avoid any confusion, I'm going to close it to further replies. 

@firstspoo, I'm so sorry your breeder wasn't honest with you. I'm linking your other thread to keep this important conversation going: Are these bad base narrow canines? Or more mild?

Or if you'd prefer to start a new, more general discussion of this issue, that's cool, too.

I hope you'll keep us posted on your puppy's progress, and let us know how he's doing otherwise. Hoping he's settling in nicely.


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