# Breeder and vaccine question



## pieces of arzt (Jul 30, 2011)

Wasn't really sure where to put this.

Can anyone think of any possible reason why a breeder would have several accounts with a veterinarian (some marked as miscellaneous, which indicates litters), and a rabies number that matched with multiple dogs?

This is a serious question. Thanks.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh oh! This does not sound good!


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## pieces of arzt (Jul 30, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Oh oh! This does not sound good!


Well, that's my initial thought, too, of course. What do you make of it?


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## pieces of arzt (Jul 30, 2011)

*Please...*

The stats for this post say that over 40 people have read this message so far. I could really use some insight/help/suggestions here. Please.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Do you have anymore info to share? How do you know this?

I used to work at a vet and some people had separate accounts for litters of puppies or rescue dogs (basically, transient dogs that the owner would not be keeping for a lifetime).


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## pieces of arzt (Jul 30, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> Do you have anymore info to share? How do you know this?
> 
> I used to work at a vet and some people had separate accounts for litters of puppies or rescue dogs (basically, transient dogs that the owner would not be keeping for a lifetime).


I'm hesitant to say too much because I don't want to malign someone that might not deserve it. I will message you, if you don't mind, as it sounds like you might have some personal experience with this. If anyone else does, please chime in.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

pieces of arzt said:


> Can anyone think of any possible reason why a breeder would have several accounts with a veterinarian ...


I'm not sure what you mean by an "account with a veterinarian." Do you mean that the vet has the breeder listed under several different names? For example, the customer is listed as ABC in some cases, and XYZ in others, even though the same breeder is paying all the bills? If so, there may well be reasons why the breeder wants to keep billing separate. For example, the breeder might co-own some dogs and not others. So after she pays the ABC bills, she gets reimbursed for an agreed upon percentage of those bills by her co-owners. But the XYZ bills are all hers. Having separate accounts might make it easier for the breeder to keep track of expenses that should perhaps be shared with others. But I'm not sure if this is what you mean. I can also think of some very unethical reasons why a breeder might want to appear to be several breeders rather than one. Hard to tell from what you have said.



pieces of arzt said:


> (some marked as miscellaneous, which indicates litters)


Not sure what you mean by this either. Do you mean that the services provided by the vet are listed as miscellaneous? If so, there is nothing necessarily wrong with that. My vet doesn't even give me a written bill (he would if I asked for one, of course). It would be wrong if the bills were written up in an unusual way in order to deceive or mislead someone. Is that what you think is happening?



pieces of arzt said:


> a rabies number that matched with multiple dogs?


My understanding is that when a dog is vaccinated, they get a tag with a rabies number and that number is unique to that dog. Giving multiple dogs the same number sounds illegal to me. 

In terms of the record keeping, do you think that there is an intent to deceive? If so, who is being deceptive, the breeder, the vet or both? And who are they trying to deceive? Puppy buyers? Co-owners/partners? Or law enforcement? Maybe it is a puppy mill trying to appear to be a lot of small individual breeders? I am asking these questions so that you can think about them. But if you think something illegal is going on, it might be better not to speculate about motives and details on a public forum like this. You have no obligation to share your thoughts about this with us, and we will certainly understand if you do not give us any more information.

If you have evidence that multiple dogs are getting the same rabies number, I think you should contact your local enforcement -- whatever department manages rabies certification. Try googling "rabies certification" or "dog law enforcement" and the name of your state, city, township or province. You should be able to find out who to call, or perhaps where to file a report or complaint. Before calling or filing a report, gather as much evidence as you can and make sure that you are being completely accurate. Can you get a photo of the records that show that more than one dog has the same rabies number? 

If multiple dogs are being given the same rabies number, I suspect that someone has far too many dogs. It may well be a puppy mill with lots of suffering dogs behind the records that you see. But I would not want to jump to that conclusion without more hard evidence. If you have evidence that multiple dogs are being given the same rabies number, I do hope that you will take action.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I can only comment on the "rabies" part. every dog that is given a rabies vaccine is given a sheet of paper with the info about the virus given as well as a unique # that is on the tag. That tag ONLY goes with that one dog. Now if doing a "rabies" clinic I have had multiple dogs on 1 certificate (weird to me) BUT each had a different rabies # & a tag given to each one. That was a 1st for me with 2 dogs on 1 certificate BUT they did list 2 different #'s. There is NO WAY that the SAME Rabies Tag # is given to multiple dogs.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Multiple accounts for an active breeder would not be a red flag. I know some breeders get kennel rates at the vets. They could have kennel rates on some of the dogs and not the others. An example would be my dog. I used my breeders vet to do the sabaceous adenitis test because that vet has done tons of them, only used a local (my vet wanted to give a general!), was able to save my dogs specimen until there were five to send at a time. My dogs specimen is currently in the vets specimen holding refrigerator waiting for the breeder to have a total of five. By submitting 5 we all get a discount on both the lab fees and the ofa fees. My dogs account there is separate from her dogs accounts because she is mine, but I paid her kennel rate to the vet for the collection as a subaccount of the breeder, so saved a bunch of money. 

Another scenario is if the breeder coowned a dog with another person, that person's dog would have a separate account to keep things clean. The breeder would pay the bill, but get reimbursed from the coowner. In my case, I paid the bill, but at the breeders rate as a subaccount.

The rabies issue is totally different. Every dog would have its own number, but personally I never get the rabies vaccine itself at the vets. I always get the vaccine at the spca (tons cheaper). There is no record of my dog having the vaccine at my vets office and my vet has no record of the rabies number of my dog. Could it be something like that? The breeder had one dog vaccinated there (maybe a coowners dog) and that number is recorded. The other dogs are listed as having them, but no numbers are recorded because they didn't have the vaccine there?


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