# Raw Meat and bone diets for dogs - enough to make you barf



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I really liked that! I have to agree with most that was said in the last part.....I don't think dogs are 'healthier' for eating raw. I believe a mixture of both are the way to go, meaty bones mainly for the benefits of keeping teeth clean and enjoyment, and a good 'high quality' kibble for nutrition I think my dog needs. I guess that makes me a fence sitter too..........A little bit of everything can't be bad Hahaha!!! And just to make sure, I add a supplement or two.............LOL!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I too have come to the conclusion that dogs can thrive on a wide range of diets, but that overly strict adherence to any particular concept of the right way to feed can lead to problems, just as it can for humans. I don't like the idea of feeding one brand and one brand only because changing will upset the dog's digestion, especially as manufacturers regularly change what they put into their foods according to the cost and availability of ingredients, although I can see how the message helps to ensure brand loyalty! I find the slightly hysterical note in some raw feeding circles equally unappealing - the ones that call any processed food pure poison...

I now feed my dogs what I consider to be "real" food, prepared according to their preferences. I like knowing what they are eating; I like being able to vary the calorie content according to their condition; I like research - I still have the tabulations of nutritional values of everything I feed cross referenced to canine and feline requirements I created when I started! - and I get a kick out of making them stuff they so obviously enjoy. But there are days when the cats get a meal of kibble, and the dogs get kibble as treats. It seems to me that there are innumerable ways of feeding dogs well, which is probably why we get so anxious trying to choose the "best".


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Interesting article. I would never have introduced raw on my own. In fact, when I read my breeder's feeding regimen my first thought was I'm changing the kibble and eliminating those chicken necks. That did not go as planned and we are back on her brand of kibble and the evening necks. I am trusting that the kibble has all of the nutritional requirements and the chicken necks are nature's tooth brush.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I read the article with an open mind. I would feel bad just giving my dog kibble meal after meal but I do use kibble in my dog's diets admittedly, for the convenience. The author lost me with his unscientific "hate mongering" opinions towards raw feeders though and also his claim that preservatives such as ethoxoquin and food colorings are just fine. I can't agree with feeding this preservative to a dog meal in and meal out! I limit these things in my diet, even though the FDA says they are OK! Also his explanation for finding phenobarbitol in some pet foods didn't make me feel good at all. There also have been SO MANY recalls on kibble for being contaminated with salmonella, yet he used that argument for against feeding raw... So, I don't know. I have not been able to find any horror stories of dogs with impactions or perforations from bones, only vague references to this happening.

I have to admit to being a bit insecure about feeding bones. Even so, I do give them chicken wings for their dental health. I have settled on Stella and Cheweys frozen patties to feed and I feel really good about it. The only thing I have noticed is that my dogs' elimination is healthier (less straining) with kibble in their diet too. We all know there is a wild swing in the quality of commercial diets. You can't compare Beneful with Orijen, for example. 

pr


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## Michelle (Nov 16, 2009)

I have read the whole article and he makes the same points I have been thinking since I thought about switching to raw. Although he seems against raw feeding the entire article and didn't list any benefits of feeding raw, only the disadvantages (possibility of salmonella, e-coli, bone shards and broken teeth from RMB), which kind of made the argument feel one sided.

All of my dogs growing up were on crap dog food. Heck my moms two dogs are still on Science Diet and both are in AMAZING health. Shiny coats, clean teeth, full of energy etc. My moms golden is 11 and she has been on that food since she was a year old. She just recently started showing a little arthritis but we threw in a joint supplement and she is good to go, no more stiffness! She has PERFECT teeth/gums (and has never had a dental cleaning), healthy skin and clear/healthy eyes. 

Both of my dogs have been on kibble their entire lives too. Atticus eats Zignature lamb recipe, and Yuki eats Earthborn Large Breed. Both are very healthy on it, but me being me, I like to research and try new things if it means my dogs will be even healthier. 

I agree about switching food brands and flavors etc so they don't develop allergies or negative reactions to certain ingredients/foods. It is something I have tried many times...but with Yuki's sensitive stomach and allergies to EVERYTHING, and Atticus being extremely picky, it was very difficult for me to do. And I do agree that by domesticating dogs and thousands of years of evolving they don't have the same digestive system as wolves, therefore don't require the exact diet they do. I think a good dry dog food can give them all the necessary nutrients that you just can't get in a completely raw diet (unless it is produced by a company that makes a balanced raw diet like Stella and Cheweys or Northwest Naturals etc). I have noticed a lot of the new brands of kibble having EXTREMELY high protein content...as much as 60% which wayyyyy to much imo. So it really just depends...there are bad in both raw and kibble. 

I'm on the fence, but in order to incorporate a larger variety into my boys meals I'm switching over to Stella and Cheweys frozen raw...that way I can give them their different protein sources (chicken, duck, goose, lamb, turkey etc) and variety in their meals that I can't do with their kibbles because of Yuki's allergies/sensitive stomach, and Atticus's pickiness. I'm going to be giving them kibble in the morning and raw in the evening until their kibble is gone, then I will have to decide if I want to switch fully to raw or still incorporate kibble.

I don't think I will ever be brave enough to prepare my own raw diet (in fear of it not being balanced) or feed RMB (in fear of broken teeth, shards etc)...when feeding raw I will always feed already prepared raw from trusted manufacturers. 

They do get dehydrated all natural treats in the evening to help their teeth, and just as a healthy snack that they absolutely love (turkey necks, chicken necks/wings/feet, lamb feet).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thanks for such great posts. I see so many of your points. I'm a little on the fence too. And I agree with not feeding the same old, same old every meal like we did in the old days basically. I use a lot of canned from people like Merrick, Evo, Dave's, Hound & Gato and get as much a variety of meats as possible. Some have grain, some not. And I use kibble too. (Totw) And they love that, sometimes it seems, better than the canned! I put a little water in it and a few times a week I'll add some egg that I scramble. I do worry about their teeth and would love to brave it and try some bones, at least for treats. But I'm a little chicken after Chulita choked so badly on one. I do brush their teeth every night. But still....they'll probably need a dental cleaning at some point. I don't think they'd go for flossing. lol. and that is necessary or a real cleaning, I would think. 


I don't worry about salmonella and those reasons for not feeding raw. I don't worry about it in the other dog food. We make chicken and pork for humans and we just need to use safe handling techniques and wash up wherever it's been. We do, for the most part have pretty good immune systems unless something's wrong or something is over whelming. And I think dogs are infrequently bothered by salmonella...less risky for them.

I choose foods that use vitamin E for preservative. And I think the premium foods are great. My dogs have always done fine on them. The raw intrigues me though. I would be worried about the balance of or inclusion of all the essential vitamins and minerals etc. Maybe that's in the bones. But I do like that they add things like (sometimes) taurine. Maybe it's in such small amounts that it's insignificant. But I like reading it on the back of the can. lol. I think some of those things are great additives. 

I guess what's in the back of my mind is one of the theories of evolution......that by means of evolution, dogs come from a proto dog, which came after the wolf. There were likely a few evolutionary events from wolf to dog...and not that they are _directly_ descended from the wolf, but branched off and additionally... that the wolf and dog share a common ancestor. Proto dogs were die hard scavengers, much more so than hunters, although they hunted a little bit too. Being scavengers may have led them to be extremely flexible in what they ate, digested, tolerated and even thrived on. They likely ate some seriously gross sh!!. LOL. In other words, I think over all, they're designed to be quite flexible in what they eat and thrive on, barring those with particular allergies or other sensitivities. I think dogs have evolved with humans for so long and have eaten what humans eat that their digestion has evolved right along....and not that they're so much like a wolf. 

That is not to say that really awful food that is missing some important nutrients is going to make for a healthy dog. I'm sure those proto dogs may not have lived as long or as well as our dogs do today...just as it was described in the article about wolves not living as long or as well. This is true. And I thought that was interesting about the captive wolves thriving better on commercial food. So, I feel okay feeding good quality, premium dog food I guess. I'll probably keep on reading though and maybe try a little raw chicken neck one of these days for a teeth cleaning treat. Gawd...I go on and on, don't I...like a tumble weed. lol.:ahhhhh:


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I honestly believe that most dogs do just fine on kibble. Years ago it was all I fed my dogs (hadn't even heard of feeding raw) and my Golden Retriever and Pointer lived long healthy lives on kibble.
It was only when Jasper got so sick on kibble that I switched over to raw, and when I saw what a drastic difference it made to his health that I decided to keep feeding raw.
Not too long ago I decided to feed a good quality kibble for just one of their meals, just for convenience as feeding raw can be ALOT of work when you have 3 dogs and mix it all yourself. Well, I have to say that their enthusiasm over that raw meal is FAR greater than that of their kibble meal..... It makes me feel abit guilty over feeding them the kibble at all.
The raw meaty bones are their absolute favorite and I know is so necessary for good dental health, so I will always include those.

(On a side note...it suspect it may be the Brewers yeast that some kibbles have added that disagrees with Jasper, so I feed one that doesn't have it in it)


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I had Jazz and our old Lab on a raw diet for over a year. I used 80% meat, dairy products, eggs, fish, and poultry, 10% organs, and 10% bones, added chopped veggies and fruits to provide bulk, weighed and measured every meal, and had the diet evaluated by the author of a book about raw feeding, who compared it to the requirements that commercial feed manufacturers have to meet and tweaked it a bit, so I felt confident that it provided adequate nutrition. 

Jazz thrived, and both my husband and I thought there was a big improvement in the Lab's energy level, mobility, and coat. Both dogs were eager eaters who loved everything about the diet. Their stools were smaller, firmer, less smelly, and easier to clean up. Although the Lab had bad teeth (he was around 10 or 11 at the time), he never had a problem eating bones, and neither dog ever got choked or had bowel problems. Sad to say, the bones didn't help at all with Jazz's teeth, which were already stained brown when we got her at five months of age. Bully sticks and Himalayan chews work better for her.

I switched all the dogs to kibble when we got Blue, because I didn't feel secure about meeting a young pup's needs otherwise. Now that Blue's over a year old, I'm thinking about going back to raw. It was fun for me, it surely must be more interesting for the dogs than an eternal diet of kibble...but, as Critterluvr noted, it is a LOT of work, so it hasn't happened yet.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

It was an interesting article as far as "anti-raw" articles go. I thought it was a bit odd that it was, it seemed, specifically critical of Billinghurst-style raw diets, including quotes from his (old?*) works, when as far as I can tell he hasn't been on the forefront of the raw feeding movement for a while now. The linked article is from 2010, which isn't all *that* old, but I certainly read articles that matched it almost point for point back when I was contemplating taking the raw plunge myself. I just found the "pro-raw" arguments more compelling. 

That was back in 1997. That's when I started feeding raw, and I have ever since. In the battle of anecdotes, mine about my raw-fed dogs are amazing, too, so--*shrugs*. I guess some dogs do fine with kibble.

Recently I've gotten into studying what *humans* have evolved to eat, too, and trying to take my own diet in that direction. There are lots of problems with grains. What's interesting is that similar competing anecdotes abound in the area of human diet as well: "My grandpa ate McDonald's five times a week and lived to 89," and "I drink Coke every day and I'm thin as a rail!" Maybe some people are more resistant to, shall we say, non-optimal food choices and can still be healthy, whereas others have to eat really well and eliminate grains or sugars to be all they can be nutrition-wise. Maybe dogs are the same: some can tolerate and even thrive on kibble (and mind you, there's wide variation of quality in kibble--some kibbles are probably as good as or almost as good as raw), while other dogs would benefit more from raw. 

I used to proselytize raw feeding, but now I'm older and more mellow. If someone asks me about it, I'll talk about it. It's the decision I made after doing my research and it works for me. Now I don't see the big deal. If you (general you) don't want to feed raw, for whatever reason, don't do it. And don't feel bad about it. Own your decision.

--Q

*Billinghurst's books: _Give Your Dog a Bone_ is from 1993, _Grow Your Pup with Bones_ is from 1998, and _The BARF Diet_ is from 2003. I own and studied the first two books, which even amongst raw aficionados had critics, but I don't have the third one. I think by that point Billinghurst was starting to take flack for going in a commercial direction himself.


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