# Question about AKC point schedules



## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

It is very typical for the point schedule to be much easier for dogs than bitches. That does reflect typical entries. The reality is that a few boys get most of the action, while most bitch owners want to finish their bitches, hence the difference in numbers.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks for the input Verve. I guess that makes sense, because a breeder would probably only keep and show 1 dog for every 3-4 or more bitches. So would you say that finishing a bitch is that much harder than a dog? Or is the competition stiffer in dogs?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The competition is much greater in bitches. Not only do you need to beat more bitches to earn points as discussed above, the overall quality of bitches showing is often higher than the overall quality of dogs showing as well.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks CM! It is so strange to me because I feel it should be the opposite - since the dogs in general have more offspring (I would think since they can easily sire many litters.) But on the other hand I can kind of see why it is this way as well. It seems that in many of the less popular breeds the stakes are a little more even. What an adventure


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A dog can sire many more litters, but it's really the bitches that make a breeding program. And I think with the smaller hobby show breeder being more and more common, in contrast to the huge kennels of the past, it can be more difficult for these types of breeders to really manage both intact dogs and bitches, making bitches the priority to show, finish and move forward with. In some cases, a breeder might have a really nice dog in a litter, but since a bitch is more practical than a dog to keep, they would either not show that dog and keep a bitch instead, or keep both and finish and place the dog.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

True, thanks for clearing that up for me! I haven't ever owned a breed that had such a huge discrepancy, point-wise, between the sexes. It's so interesting that some breeds have to work so so much harder for that Ch title. Makes me respect all of the spoos (especially the girls) with their championships a whole lot more. 

I haven't looked at UKC point schedules in ages but does anyone know if there is a similar phenomenon in spoos with UKC?


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

No as the UKC rules and points are much different. They remain the same for every sex of every breed. ie 10 points for a 1st place in a regular class, 15 points for best male or female, 10 points for best of winners. The points are cumulative so class dog can earn as many as 35 points in a show. To earn their championship a dog must:

Have a minimum of 100 championship points
Points must be earned under at least three different
UKC licensed Judges,
Win three Best Male/Female (or higher) classes at
three different shows with competition under three
different UKC licensed Judges.

Please note the competition wins can come from within the breed OR from a Group placement. 
AND sigh yes it is possible to get over 100 points with out getting your title if you lack those competition wins.

To be honest in UKC the title to look for is Grand Champion as those are about as hard to get as in AKC if not slightly harder.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

spindledreams said:


> To be honest in UKC the title to look for is Grand Champion as those are about as hard to get as in AKC if not slightly harder.


I want to clarify what you were saying there: are you saying a UKC grand is equal/harder than an AKC grand, or that a UKC grand is equal/harder than an AKC CH? I don't agree with either statement.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thank you for laying that out for me Spindledreams! Now that you said all of that it is coming back to me - has been years since I took anything in both AKC and UKC rings. I forgot how much easier UKC is. I should have finished my dogs in UKC back when I showed there as I'm sure both of them must have been around 50 pts or more. So that makes me think that it wouldn't be too hard to finish a really nice bitch in a weekend at the UKC shows, as long as there was some competition. I definitely plan to show UKC with this pup and finish her Ch.

I am also going to do some AKC too (all the pro handlers will be so happy to have another dog to beat haha) but the difficulty in getting AKC points makes me think that I will have to do it as a strictly for fun thing. But I get the feeling that I will have a lot of support from the breeder/mentor, so if that happens then who knows what could be possible


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> I am also going to do some AKC too (all the pro handlers will be so happy to have another dog to beat haha) but the difficulty in getting AKC points makes me think that I will have to do it as a strictly for fun thing. But I get the feeling that I will have a lot of support from the breeder/mentor, so if that happens then who knows what could be possible



I think it really depends on your grooming and handling skills. Although it may not be realistic to think that you're going to finish a dog AKC owner-handled as a newbie, it may be reasonable to hope to put some points on. It really depends on your skills, the quality of the dog, and who else happens to be out at that time. I have two friends who put singles on a bitch and a dog respectively owner-handled, in very competitive areas (MD and NC).


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thanks Verve! I think I will go into it with that goal in mind, hoping that I may put at least one point on in AKC. That is so awesome about your friend! I wish that there were more shows near me - then I would have more opportunities for practice. As it is, there will be about 5-6 clusters a year that are easy for me to access. However, our local AKC club is working on eventually being able to host our own shows, which would be absolutely amazing. Our second B match will be this fall, so probably a year or two out, but I am so excited for that!

As for grooming, I used to groom professionally but obviously wasn't putting poodles in show trim (though I did have a fellow groomer who kept hers in full puppy trim so I did get some practice there.) So if my mentor can help me to set lines I think I should be able to maintain them decently - at least I hope!


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Oh and here is a silly question that I should already know the answer to but somehow can't remember. On the AKC point schedule, for example if it says you need 2 dogs to get one point, does that mean you must beat two dogs (like if there are 3 total dogs in the winners ring) Or does your dog count as one of the two (so there is only your dog and one more in the winners ring?) 

I know it's more complex than that, as I believe all of the dogs beaten in all of the previous classes go towards that total number but I am just wondering if the winning dog is included in the number or if it is not included? Hope that makes sense and sorry for such a newb question!


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## poshandpoodles (Mar 22, 2017)

As someone who is completely new to the adventures of conformation, I just wanted to say thank you for sharing this knowledge! There's quite a bit to learn when you're a newbie.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Oh and here is a silly question that I should already know the answer to but somehow can't remember. On the AKC point schedule, for example if it says you need 2 dogs to get one point, does that mean you must beat two dogs (like if there are 3 total dogs in the winners ring) Or does your dog count as one of the two (so there is only your dog and one more in the winners ring?)
> 
> I know it's more complex than that, as I believe all of the dogs beaten in all of the previous classes go towards that total number but I am just wondering if the winning dog is included in the number or if it is not included? Hope that makes sense and sorry for such a newb question!



There aren't really any silly questions about the AKC point schedule--it's very complicated! The numbers in the chart are the entry in dogs and bitches. So if it's two, there needs to be an entry of two dogs or two bitches for you to get one point. And both dogs need to show up, of course. 

Do you already understand about points crossing, and how the Best of Winners gets however many points were on the table--the larger of WB and WD?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thank you so much for sharing Verve, I love learning about how this stuff works. Here is how I understand it (the basics) please correct me if I am wrong. 

So if you have an entry of 8 dogs (between all of the classes combined - puppy, open, etc) and the open dog takes WD then for us in our region, that would be a 5 or major because for 5 points in dogs you need an entry of 7 or more.

Then if the entry in bitches was smaller, say only 2, one in puppy and one in open, and the open goes WB, then she would get one point in our region (because 2 entries takes 1 point.)

Then WD and WB go in with the specials for BOV. If the WB miraculously takes BOV over the Specials and WD, does that mean that she would get the 5 point major? Do the specials entries count as entries towards points at all or no? And if that were to happen, would the WD still keep his 5 point major as well? 

If you made it through all that and it made a shred of sense, let me know, and let me know what I am getting wrong (probably a lot!)


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

> I want to clarify what you were saying there: are you saying a UKC grand is equal/harder than an AKC grand, or that a UKC grand is equal/harder than an AKC CH? I don't agree with either statement.


Since you don't agree with either possible meaning perhaps you could tell me why?
I do know that in my area it is very hard to get the wins required for the GC title. When they fill our local champion classes for solids often have AKC Grands as well as AKC Ch working on their Grands so quality is high. The multi-color quality is not far below the solids.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

*Point schedule - one more item*

As mentioned before, a dog who goes best of winners gets the number of points available for either sex - whichever sex has the higher number of points. Going best of variety can result in an even higher number of points depending upon the gender of the champions being exhibited. And winning the group or best in show will get you the highest number of points for any breed in the group or show respectively.

Here is a good summation from AKC: Counting Points - American Kennel Club

I have never exhibited in a UKC show, so know nothing about them.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thank you so much Johanna, your comment is extremely helpful. My puppy is due in about 2 weeks (hopefully!) so hopefully I will have his all figured out and feel comfortable with it by the time the pup is 6 months old!


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## BabetteH (May 1, 2019)

Johanna said:


> As mentioned before, a dog who goes best of winners gets the number of points available for either sex - whichever sex has the higher number of points. Going best of variety can result in an even higher number of points depending upon the gender of the champions being exhibited. And winning the group or best in show will get you the highest number of points for any breed in the group or show respectively.
> 
> Here is a good summation from AKC: Counting Points - American Kennel Club
> 
> I have never exhibited in a UKC show, so know nothing about them.


Does winning the group really get you points? I don't see that in the rules (though it would make a lot of sense).


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