# 40 Standar Poodles taken by ASPCA



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

sounds like dogs were in good condition (Well 'ok' condition) but the house was not 

theres no way one person can properly take care of that many dogs


----------



## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

That's not the only one. 
Whispering Pines Standard Poodles Marshall VA.


Front page - above the fold - Fauquier Times Democrat dated Friday, April 16th - 

"34 Poodles Seized from home"...in Marshall, VA. 

To summarize the article - breeder advertises on Craigslist, person comes and purchases standard poodle puppy, sees 2 adult dogs in the house and hears others. After purchasing the puppy she contacts AC and complains that the animals were being poorly treated.

She claimed that there was a strong ammonia smell and soiled carpeting inside the home.

Said the puppy she bought had a heavily soiled and matted coat and a skin infection.

Police went to the house but refused entrance. They got a search warrant and investigated the "general welfare and living conditions of all of the animals specifically checking for food and water and a clean living area. They also looked for proof of veterinary care, county dog licenses and a breeder's license."

They confiscated the dogs based on the "unhealthy condition of the living environment. "

The owner, Katharine Rene Dokken - has NOT been charged. Hearing to be held on Thursday.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I visited this site WP once and just got an eewwiie feeling 

I wonder what will become of all these dogs. And in VA they only allow you to adopt from that state from what I seen, unless these dogs go to another shelter.


----------



## redcricket (Dec 5, 2009)

Yikes! I live right around there, and I had not heard of this! I have not heard of this breeder either. Solebury is a very nice area to live right outside of Doylestown. Lots of huge expensive homes, and large rolling properties. Lots of lawyers/doctors/professionals live in this area. She sounds like a typical hoarder. What a shame. At least the dogs appeared to be in good health. I feel bad for the owner of the property for sure! I bet the dogs are going to the SPCA in New Hope.


----------



## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Both those cases will be in the court system for a while. Grace is famous for fighting legally, and Katie is not far behind.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Nigel said:


> Breeder is Belcanto Standard Poodles.
> 
> Anyone know her? Thoughts?


Yep... concerns about her for years. Mental health issues etc. Glad someone finally did something.

I think she owns the sire of Vacheron's dogs. (Anybody talk to Vacheron lately?)


----------



## redcricket (Dec 5, 2009)

Here's another article about her from The Examiner/Feb. 2008: 



Board investigates Meirs Road kennel complaints 

Breeder is operating in conformance with twp. ordinances 
BY JANE MEGGITT Staff Writer 

UPPER FREEHOLD - The township's Board of Health has determined that aMeirs Road woman who breeds dogs is not running an illegal kennel. 

After hearing about an investigation of the property and listening to the resident, the board decided at its Feb. 12 meeting that Grace Lossman is a hobby breeder who is not running a business from her home. 

Township Code Enforcement Official Ron Gafgen had sent Lossman a letter on Jan. 17 telling her to cease her operation immediately as animal control and health department representatives had recently visited her property to investigate complaints regarding the selling and raising of dogs. 

A Jan. 18 letter from Freehold Area Health Department official Julie Kramer stated that the health department had received complaints that Lossman's dogs did not have sanitary living quarters or access to water. The letter also stated that people had complained of Lossman owning 20 dogs and possibly operating an illegal kennel. 

According to Animal Control Officer Mary Klink, township ordinances permit residents to own up to five dogs on properties under two acres and up to eight dogs on larger tracts. Klink said that township ordinances also permit additional dogs under a certain age. Operations exceeding those limitations would require a kennel license, she said. 

According to Kramer's letter, Lossman had 16 dogs in her home at the time of inspection. Kramer's letter also stated that Lossman feeds stray cats. 

Lossman told the board that she has eight adult dogs, one male and seven females. She said the other dogs referenced in Kramer's letter are puppies. 

Chairman Dr. S. Perrine Dey asked Lossman about the chain of events that caused Gafgen to send her the letter. 




Lossman told the board that she received a visit on Jan. 4 from Klink, Kramer,Monmouth County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (SPCA) investigator Stu Goldman and animal welfare representative Anita Stout. Lossman said the visitors told her that people had filed complaints about her home. 

Lossman told the board that she had hip replacement surgery on Dec. 17 and had employed several people to clean and care for the dogs while she was in the hospital. She assumed the employees were the source of the complaints. She also said that prior to surgery, she had been unable to bend down and clean the floors. 

Lossman said she breeds one litter of standard poodles per year for the "perfect agility dog." She showed the board photographs and health records of her dogs. 

"My girls have careers," she said, noting that her 9½-year-old poodle Laura has only had one litter during her lifetime. 

"You can't interrupt training with litters," she said. 

Lossman said she does not operate a kennel and rarely deals with the public. She said she only works with people who are seriously interested in dog obedience and agility work. 

Board member and veterinarian Dr. Kathy Stryeski said she believes Lossman's operation is a hobby kennel and does not require a kennel license. Stryeski said she showed dogs for 28 years and understands "where [Lossman] is coming from." 

Stryeski said the definition of a kennel is a business. She said there is no way Lossman makes money selling the occasional litter. 

Board member James Rosenbauer commended Lossman for her hobby, calling it a worthwhile pursuit. 

In an interview, Stout said that all of Lossman's dogs looked like they were in good condition during the visit. She said that Lossman feeds the dogs the Bones and Raw Food (BARF) diet, whichmay not have seemed healthy for the dogs to the complainants, but is recommended by veterinarians.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Statement from Poodle Club of America Rescue

Anita McKenna and I have spoken to the Bucks County Humane Society
today regarding the 44 standard poodles that were taken. They were
very grateful for the phone calls and we offered financial as well as
physical assistance. At this time they say they can handle it and will
work with any co-owners to get the dogs back into their hands upon
proof of co-ownership. PCA rescue will send a donation for the care of
the dogs and we will now step aside and let them do their work. As I
said, they were very nice, very cooperative and were truly thankful
that we care and are willing to step in if they need us. They will
also keep us updated on the progress. I am leaving this in the capable
hands of Anita McKenna and she will keep me posted. My thanks to Anita
for handling the situation as it is geographically nearer to her and
she is a large part of our rescue team.

Sally Poindexter
Poodle Club of America Rescue Foundation, Inc.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Wow, is this person really a show person?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If the accusations are true, then thank God action has been taken. If not true, then I guess we are all vulnerable.


----------



## Nigel (Nov 24, 2009)

Here is the AKC Kennel Check Report:http://www.belcantostandardpoodles.com/AKCinspection.pdf

And more info: Belcanto Standard Poodles, Standard Poodles, Standard Poodle puppies for sale

Although I don't breed, never have or will, I am friends with many conformation people & a member of an all breed kennel club.

Because we live in the Chicago area very few of my show friends have an appropriate set-up for multiple dogs. Most are way over the dog limit of the suburb they live in but cannot realistically move because their job that pays the bills is in the city.

Most worry that they could potentially get caught and end up in this situation.

I'm not defending this breeder, don't know her & never heard of her til the story broke. She did feed raw, did conformation & agility and performed health testing. But have to wonder if the conditions are exagerrated so the SPCA could seize her dogs. What a great find for them, I'm sure there would be no shortage of adoptive homes for beautiful, healthy retired show poodles.

I am a strong advocate of rescue, when dogs really need rescuing. But am far more a believer in pet owners rights and absolutely think HSUS & PETA want to take away all of our rights to own dogs.

There are horrific conditions in true puppy mills nationwide. How about shutting those down & seizing the dogs who have never felt the grass beneath their feet, are covered in sores & feces & never ate a decent meal.

Seems to me this breeder was overwhelmed by the number of dogs and had an incredible amount of nerve to house all those dogs in a rental property.
Did she not think that if her landlord found out, the **** would hit the fan?

I am very interested in the outcome of this.

Kathy


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

This is not a recent issue with her. There have been complaints along the same lines before.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

What?? I mean the owner of the home never allowed the woman to have 40 dogs!! Who in their right mind can take care of 40 dogs?? I don't even think you can take care of 10 standard poodles properly if you are just doing it by yourself. They are a highly energetic breed, they are intelligent, and they require a lot of maintance ESPECIALLY if they are showing in conformation. Who in their right mind would house 40 SPOOS inside a home? Do you think the woman that owned the home exaggerated what had happened to her house? Because the SPCA wasn't the only one quoted on the conditions of that place. I don't really think that the SPCA has enough time and money to go around trying to "steal" people's show dogs so that they can rehome them and earn extra money. The most they will rehome them for is $250 and that's after they are all spayed/neutered and vetted out. No way that none of them will require some type of vet treatment. No way she could afford vet treatment for 40 dogs. The monthly heartworm alone would cost more than someone's mortgage payment living in a very nice home. 

Why does the fact that she fed raw make her any better than someone that had the grocery store brand food in bowls for 40 dogs? She was a hoarder. Hoarding is an illness. That woman has no idea what is right and wrong and she is putting herself, her family, and those dogs at risk because of her illness.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

KPoos said:


> What?? I mean the owner of the home never allowed the woman to have *40 dogs*!! Who in their right mind can take care of *40 dogs*?? I don't even think you can take care of 10 standard poodles properly if you are just doing it by yourself. They are a highly energetic breed, they are intelligent, and they require a lot of maintance ESPECIALLY if they are showing in conformation. Who in their right mind would house *40 *SPOOS inside a home? Do you think the woman that owned the home exaggerated what had happened to her house? Because the SPCA wasn't the only one quoted on the conditions of that place. I don't really think that the SPCA has enough time and money to go around trying to "steal" people's show dogs so that they can rehome them and earn extra money. The most they will rehome them for is $250 and that's after they are all spayed/neutered and vetted out. No way that none of them will require some type of vet treatment. No way she could afford vet treatment for *40 dogs*. The monthly heartworm alone would cost more than someone's mortgage payment living in a very nice home.
> *Why does the fact that she fed raw make her any better than someone that had the grocery store brand food in bowls for 40 dogs?* She was a hoarder. Hoarding is an illness. That woman has no idea what is right and wrong and she is putting herself, her family, and those dogs at risk because of her illness.


44 Dogs. And the RAW food did not mean she was doing this the right way. RAW feeding. Didn't sound like I would fed my dogs this way - they don't eat anything I wouldn't. 

The grooming alone or lack of is enough to say she has a problem, this woman knows better with all the years experience she had! 

ETA - you said everything I was thinking ^^
Maybe the woman needs help, someone needed to step in period. :scared:


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Olie said:


> Maybe the woman needs help, someone needed to step in period. :scared:


I agree I'm glad someone went in and will hopefully find the dogs a nice place to live forever!!

but this woman/family ((not sure if it was just her or not)) needs help hoarding is a real issue, I mean its a psychological disorder that needs INTENSE therapy to fix
if shes a hoarder ((And 44 dogs...that sounds like some sorta screwed up thing to me XD)) unless shes banned from owning animals in the state of PA she'll have another 40 something in 5 years


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Im just shocked about everything ! :wacko::doh:

poor dogs , there is a very GOOD article about show breeders or "Legit" breeders that are hoarders ! 

It was in poodle variety ! if I find it I will scan it at work today. I think its a must read for puppy buyers !


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Nigel said:


> Here is the AKC Kennel Check Report:http://www.belcantostandardpoodles.com/AKCinspection.pdf
> 
> And more info: Belcanto Standard Poodles, Standard Poodles, Standard Poodle puppies for sale
> 
> ...


I agree w/ you completely. I don't know the breeder and I don't if she was a good breeder or not. However, I think this whole thing was blown out of proportion. It's my understand that the whole issue is a result of a tenant/landlord dispute. The basement flooded and the breeder insisted it be fixed. I'm very confused about the number too. The original reports were much lower than 40 and no two reports seem to have the same number. If you read Redcricket's post, the breeder was found to be in the right. Not to mention every single article I've read mentioned something about sending donations to this SPCA. I'm sure they will be keeping those donations even though it doesn't sound like the dogs needed to be rescued. Unfortunately, many shelters are outsourcing animal control and those companies often will do anything to make a profit. (Anything from raiding a breeder to get publicity and donations to deeming any dog they wish aggressive or sick just so it's doesn't affect their high adoption rates.) I think 40 dogs is absolutely too many and I think the landlord had everyright to start eviction procedings. I don't think seizing the dogs, exposing them to disease and risking accidental pregnancies was appropriate.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think it's VERY easy to hide the fact that you are indeed a hoarder through "showing dogs" and having a state of the art kennel facility. No one needs to have tons of dogs to show. Just in my opinion, if you have more dogs than you can comfortably house inside your home, you need to reevaluate your situation but that's just my opinion don't jump all over me if you disagree. Large numbers of dogs get lost in the shuffle as far as temperament evaluations, socializing, and just plain learning to live inside a home and being part of a family. Then they get pawned off on the general public through the marketing of them being show dogs. Just because a dog can go to a show and perform for it's handler doesn't make it a wonderful family pet. It's just used to going to shows as that's what it's life is. I don't know this stuff gives a bad taste in my mouth.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> I think it's VERY easy to hide the fact that you are indeed a hoarder through "showing dogs" and having a state of the art kennel facility.


This is why i need to find that article in poodle variety it talks about this !. people think they are excellent breeders but behind closed doors they are hoarders ! 

My dad Is a Hoarder and I know how it is to live with one. Its not Pleasant at all, the hoarding usually is due to depression of some sort that the person does not disclose to family and friends.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes it is easy to hide what they are and it is indeed a medical condition that deteriorates over time. I've watched the show and I feel so awful for everyone involved in the lives of hoarders because most often they don't even know they are sick.

What people get so caught up in is show titles. People are trained to think, show title= excellent breeder therefore excellent puppies or adult dogs. We've seen here that that just isn't always true.


----------



## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I agree with the general feeling that this woman is a hoarder. I met this woman about 5 months ago and I was in this house. A good friend of mine was interested in a standard poodle puppy and she knew someone who had gotten a poodle from Belcanto. I went along with her, because it's always fun to look at puppies. From the outside the property is gorgeous. Inside it was a mess. We were led through a pathway in a room that was filled with boxes and into the kitchen. The kitchen was incredibly cluttered. We met one of her adult dogs thout she was interested in placing. From there we went to an upstairs bathroom where she was keeping an adult female and a litter of puppies. The dogs all seemed to be in good shape--happy and healthy. Yes, there was urine and feces on the bathroom floor, but you kind of expect that with 7 puppies running around. There were dogs in a fenced area behing the house and dogs in crates in what was a dining room. I'm sure there were dogs in other rooms in the house too, but I had no idea how many.

Grace explained that she had just moved and hadn't time to unpack all the boxes. She said that some of the dogs were being boarded for people that had bought them from her in the past. I don't know how much of that was true.

I think she truly loves her dogs, but caring for however many poodles there were and holding a full time job, is just impossible.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Properly caring for a large number of big dogs, particularly something as high maintenance as a Standard Poodle and NOT working full time is not always possible either. Everyone needs to set a number on what they are comfortable with, and can ensure that each dog in their care gets attention, affection, exercise, coat care, veterinary attention...and that none of these dogs gets lost in the shuffle because there are so many under one roof.


----------



## Sparkle&Spunk (Jan 26, 2010)

so sad


----------



## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Fauquier-Times-Democrat April 23, 2010


Poodles’ owner abandons right to keep abused dogs 
BY ALEXANDRA BOGDANOVIC 
Fauquier Times-Democrat Staff Writer 
Katharine Rene Dokken didn’t say a word when she appeared in General District Court Thursday afternoon. 
Instead, the Marshall woman agreed not to try to reclaim her dogs, according to Assistant Commonwealth’s Attorney Angela Catlett. 
Fauquier law enforcement authorities seized 34 poodles, ranging from 9 weeks to 6 years old, from Dokken’s residence April 10. 
Master Deputy Sheriff Lane Phillippe and Humane Investigator Hilleary Bogley found the dogs in “atrocious” conditions when they executed the search warrant at the Conde Road residence. 
Eight puppies were in the yard outside and 26 dogs were indoors. Of those, all but three were in airline carriers, Bogley said. 
“Many of them weren’t able to stand. None had any food or water, and they were heavily soiled with their own feces,” she said. 
A concerned citizen initially contacted a Fauquier animal control officer after she went to a Conde Road residence to buy a standard poodle advertised on craigslist.org  . 
Investigators are glad she did. 
“Public awareness is key,” Bogley said. “People have to be the voice for these animals,” she said. 
According to the warrant, the caller saw two adult dogs and the puppy she purchased. She heard many other dogs in the residence. The puppy she purchased had a heavily soiled and matted coat and a skin infection, the warrant said. 
Bogley and Phillippe confiscated the dogs based on “the unhealthy condition of the living environment.” 
Eight dogs went to the Fauquier SPCA and 26 went to the Middleburg Humane Foundation after a vet examined them. 
Dokken and her attorney, David A. Oblon, declined to comment after the hearing. 
She now has five days in which to change her mind about trying to reclaim the dogs. 
In the meantime, Bogley said she and her staff will sort through paperwork to determine each animal’s medical history and prepare them for adoption. 
Bogley’s staff will begin taking applications for adoption right away. Those interested should contact the Middleburg Humane Foundation through its Web site, at www.middle  burghumane.com  . 
To reach the Fauquier SPCA, call (540) 788-9000. 
E-mail the reporter: abog  [email protected]   Back 
Continue


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Good for her. 

I am sure this decision was based on the potential outcome.......not to mention, how do you defend this type of neglect/abuse? Apparently she had enough sense to make the best choice now.hwell:


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

But keeping someone that has this type of problem from gathering up and hoarding dogs again is hard. They "ban" them from owning any type of animal but people always find ways around it. Besides when she relocates who will know she is banned? No one checks on that sort of thing and she can move to another state. She needs psychological help and I wish that there were some court required therapy that hoarders of animals had to take.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I am not questioning the "hoarding" conversation as it is very hard to diagnose. This has classic symptoms of it but we do not this is the case either 100%....most hoarders of dogs that had options to get these dogs back would do anything, I mean anything and this woman made a very quick decision to let these dogs all go. I think its possible this woman let things get out of hand in the middle of a recent move. There were 2 other woman with her in pics with the dogs showing.......who knows maybe they were in business with her and bailed on her, bottom line she made the right decision and I am glad. She does not deserve any dogs. This is no difference to me then a man that abuses women - he has a problem and needs help - but I cut him NO slack for his actions. 

Ideal picture - if she needs help, she get's it. I hope to God her reputation now will keep her from dealing with any dogs - but as been said, there is not much people can do UNLESS they are charged.

ETA - this was pertaining to the second story.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I think this thread needs some clarification! We are now talking about two different breeders. Grace Lossman (Belcanto in PA) is who the thread was started about. Katharine Rene Dokken (Whispering Pines in VA) is a completely different breeder.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, in all of this, lets just hope for a good outcome for the people, and for the dogs, seperately. This reminds me of the whole Majestic fiasco not too long ago, when Sueann died and the family wanted nothing to do with the mess that was her breeding operation and just had those poor souls rescued and removed. The saddest part of that story is that the Rescue people figure there had been about five or six years of neglect going on for some of the dogs to be in the condition they were in. So, sad becausse it hadn't happened sooner. In her case, not one outsider seemed to have an inkling something was amiss there.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I think this thread needs some clarification! We are now talking about two different breeders. Grace Lossman (Belcanto in PA) is who the thread was started about. Katharine Rene Dokken (Whispering Pines in VA) is a completely different breeder.


..yeah truehwell:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I honestly thought we were talking about three different seizures, not just two.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Aww so Carol posted about the Whispering Pine's breeder update? See I thought that was the update to the woman renting the house. I had no idea Whispering Pines had over 30 dogs. Good grief! I have to edit my comments to say that instead of a hoarder in her case, it sounds more like a money making business (aka puppy mill).


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I honestly thought we were talking about three different seizures, not just two.


I thought that at first too, but I went back and checked. Carol (dogsinstyle)'s post are both about Whispering Pines, not Belcanto. IMO, it's very confusing.


----------



## pudel luv (Jan 23, 2010)

As a follow up to the Belcanto Standards situation, the article 
PhillyBurbs.com: Charges will stem from kennel raid dated April 22, 2010, sheds a slightly different angle on the story. Perhaps the most notable difference is that 12 dogs were left in the care of Grace Lossman and 34 were taken to SPCA. Apparently, some areas of the home were in better condition than others.

At one point, in our search for a brown standard, we reveiwed Grace Lossman's contract. It was highly detailed: reguiring one to follow Dr. Jane Dodd's vaccination protocol, assign "god parents" (with signatures) in the event that the pup lost his humans and specifics about diet. Although we went with another breeder, she appeared to really love her dogs and the breed. It is a very sad story.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

pudel luv said:


> As a follow up to the Belcanto Standards situation, the article
> PhillyBurbs.com: Charges will stem from kennel raid dated April 22, 2010, sheds a slightly different angle on the story. Perhaps the most notable difference is that 12 dogs were left in the care of Grace Lossman and 34 were taken to SPCA. Apparently, some areas of the home were in better condition than others.
> 
> At one point, in our search for a brown standard, we reveiwed Grace Lossman's contract. It was highly detailed: reguiring one to follow Dr. Jane Dodd's vaccination protocol, assign "god parents" (with signatures) in the event that the pup lost his humans and specifics about diet. Although we went with another breeder, she appeared to really love her dogs and the breed. It is a very sad story.


But, as we can see from the Katie Dokken story as it unfolds, there is more to these breeders than meets the eye. Katie Dokken would show up at a dog show with impeccably groomed specimens of the breed. She has a cutesy website that certainly does not make anyone suspect things were amiss. She has a contract that makes her look like a caring, responsible breeder. All of the things you have mentioned doesn't mean anything really. It just means they are good at covering their tracks and fooling people. A good contract does not make a good, ethical breeder. Showing your dogs does not make you a good, ethical breeder. Telling people you follow a certain vaccination protocol or feeding regimen does not make you a good and ethical breeder. Putting your words into action, doing it for the right reasons, loving your dogs with all of your might, making sure they go to good and loving homes....these are the things that make a good and ethical breeder.

I have been crying most of the morning over these situations this week. Crying that these poor dogs have not had an opportunity to know what loves feels like, or dignity...Oh my God...I am so angry right now I could hurt someone!!! (And the someone HAS a name!!!)


----------



## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Katie Dokken would show up at a dog show with impeccably groomed specimens of the breed.

No. Katie would show up with urine stained dogs, and often matted.
A judge with-held placement not long ago because of the condition of her dogs.
I met Katie when she only had 2 dogs, and they were matted under a semi-brushed topcoat.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have never met the woman nor seen her dogs...just going on what I have been told and trying to make a point on what constitutes a good breeder. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


----------



## pudel luv (Jan 23, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> <snip>
> 
> All of the things you have mentioned doesn't mean anything really.
> 
> <snip>


What it means is that people can have good intentions initially and later, lose their way. Our hope can only be that the people and the dogs, in both of the kennels mentioned, will be well taken care of in the future. Each situation is unique and the journey back will be long and rugged.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Good intentions does not mean a thing if you do not follow through. ZIP. :rolffleyes:


----------



## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

I have been crying most of the morning over these situations this week. Crying that these poor dogs have not had an opportunity to know what loves feels like, or dignity...Oh my God...I am so angry right now I could hurt someone!!! (And the someone HAS a name!!!)[/QUOTE]

arreau - i read all the posts on this topic in absolute horror. i am a beginner when it comes to the world of std poodles, but my love for the breed goes back years. i don't have anywhere near the experience or knowledge so many of you have and i hang on your every word. this is a heartbreak. i think of my jessie and i can't imagine anyone who is so blessed as to recognize and value the characteristics of this wonderful breed ever do anything to intentially hurt them. i would love to own more than one spoo, some day, but only if i could give them the life they deserve. what is going to happen to these puppies and the adults??? please tell me they won't wind up in kill shelters!!???


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The puppies will get homes quickly I would think. The older dogs, because they are Poodles, will also likely get placed quickly unless there are some who have been so traumatized by their life with that witch that they just cannot be put into a home. From everything I saw in the photos, they look to be pretty peacable dogs. The did not need special equipment to get them out of their crates and it appears they all let the workers handle them. So, hopefully once treated for all of the various parasites and skin ailments they have, and with a couple of weeks in care being treated well and kept clean, most of them should be able to go on to good and loving homes. All we can do now is pray for the poor souls, and hope the rest of their lives are as they should have been from day one!


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

You have two completely different story's being reported in this thread. It has now run the course were people are responding as it is one story, along with adding their own bits and pieces to the story.

Kathy started the first post & that was in the Bucks County area in Pennsylvania. The latest with that story... "Twelve dogs were left in Lossman's care. Myron said five were in a room with "better conditions" and the other was a mother with young puppies who were already "stressed." PhillyBurbs.com: Charges will stem from kennel raid

So some of the adults & puppies have been returned to their home...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes, two different stores...Belaconto and Whispering Pines. They both had dogs seized and by the sound of things, both had their dogs living in horrific conditions. Obviously we are all reacting to the Whispering Pines story a lot more harshly because we have seen photos of the deplorable conditions those dogs were living in. What exactly is your point?


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yes, two different stores...Belcanto and Whispering Pines. They both had dogs seized and by the sound of things, both had their dogs living in horrific conditions. Obviously we are all reacting to the Whispering Pines story a lot more harshly because we have seen photos of the deplorable conditions those dogs were living in. What exactly is your point?


Nothing is Obvious... if things were so obvious, horrific & deplorable, why did they give Belcanto some of her adult dogs and puppies back? As the news article states "If she's found guilty,...", means they are still looking into it. I am not saying she did not do the things that are stated. My point is, an as you stated, people are Reacting and treating both stories as one before they know all the facts.


----------



## pudel luv (Jan 23, 2010)

A typo must have occurred somewhere along the way. In reference to the Philly Burbs Story, Grace Lossman's kennel name is "Belcanto" not Delaconte.


----------



## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I posted earlier that I had met Grace Lossman of Belcanto poodles about five months ago, and that I had been in that house for about an hour or so. I was with a friend who was looking for a standard poodle puppy. I think there is a huge difference between the two stories.

While I do not approve of the way the house was maintained, the poodles seemed to be well taken care of. They were kept in a short all purpose clip--no matted coats, no feces encrusted feet. All of the poodles I saw were of a healthy weight with wagging tails and bright eyes. Grace must have spent most of the money she earned to be able to feed all these dogs a raw diet. She also took several of her dogs through agility training at a well respected dog training facility. I believe she truly loves those dogs.

However, she should never have been a breeder, because she does not seem to be able to part with more than an occasional puppy to a very good person. That is a recipe for disaster, and that is what happened.

The woman in Virginia appears to be running a puppy mill. She surrendered her dogs for a lesser sentence. Grace Lossman is fighting the seizure of her dogs. This will go to court. Some of her dogs are co-owned with other breeders. Perhaps the co-owners will claim the dogs.

I truly feel sorry for Grace Lossman, although I think she needs to have some boundaries set for her. She must not be allowed to house that many dogs ever again. The woman in Virginia should be tarred and feathered in the town square--although all she got was a slap on the wrist.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am sorry... I do not want to come off as a judgemental, evil, unfeeling wretch, but I do not feel sorry for either of them. Anyone in their right mind has to know when things are beginning to get out of hand. THEN you stop it. Do something. Ask for help but get those dogs into homes and whiddle down your numbers to a more manageable amount. Didn't the Grace Lossmann story say that when the Sheriff and animal control people got there, they could smell feces and urine from the driveway before they even got near the house? Maybe I imangine that? THAT is not normal.


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am sorry... I do not want to come off as a judgemental, evil, unfeeling wretch, but I do not feel sorry for either of them. Anyone in their right mind has to know when things are beginning to get out of hand. THEN you stop it. Do something. Ask for help but get those dogs into homes and whiddle down your numbers to a more manageable amount.


Whatever the situation is and someone cannot stop or have the ware with all to ask for help... are the people who need help. You do not have to feel sorry for them but you do not have to cast judgment either. 



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Didn't the Grace Lossmann story say that when the Sheriff and animal control people got there, they could smell feces and urine from the driveway before they even got near the house?


No



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Maybe I imangine that?


Yes


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

Poodlelvr said:


> I posted earlier that I had met Grace Lossman of Belcanto poodles about five months ago, and that I had been in that house for about an hour or so. I was with a friend who was looking for a standard poodle puppy. I think there is a huge difference between the two stories.
> 
> While I do not approve of the way the house was maintained, the poodles seemed to be well taken care of. They were kept in a short all purpose clip--no matted coats, no feces encrusted feet. All of the poodles I saw were of a healthy weight with wagging tails and bright eyes. Grace must have spent most of the money she earned to be able to feed all these dogs a raw diet. She also took several of her dogs through agility training at a well respected dog training facility. I believe she truly loves those dogs.
> 
> ...




I fully agree


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

well honestly it doesn't matter
evidently SOMETHING was amiss or her dogs would never have been taken out of her home...so you can't be all like OH she didn't do a thing wrong...
animal control and animal rescues don't just go into peoples homes everyday and take 34 animals with them ((or whatever the number was for this Lossman woman))

The ONLY difference between her case and the one in VA are photos
...we have photos of the Whispering Pines case that you can see the neglect either the people in PA were to busy to take photos or they haven't released them yet

and the reason shes getting her animals back is because she has a decent attorney and not because shes the "best" home for said animals.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Seems some have come to play with Arreau:rolffleyes:

Not sure you Cherie have judged much differently than anyone else. I find it odd when a poster agrees with one and disagrees with another OVER THE SAME COMMENTS! LMAO


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

Olie said:


> Seems some have come to play with Arreau:rolffleyes:
> 
> Not sure you Cherie have judged much differently than anyone else. I find it odd when a poster agrees with one and disagrees with another OVER THE SAME COMMENTS! LMAO


If you are referring to me, then be specific about the SAME COMMENT you are talking about as their are many and I be happy to answer. Then maybe you will not find it odd.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Taxi said:


> If you are referring to me, then be specific about the SAME COMMENT you are talking about as their are many and I be happy to answer. Then maybe you will not find it odd.


I think it's pretty obvious its you for some reason the point has been lost, no need to call one person out for the same thing most of us have done and is expressed our *opinion*, _same as yourself_. but when you turn around and disagree with one and agree with another that post the very same thing (similar) , you lose some credibility in my OPINION


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Whatever the situation is and someone cannot stop or have the ware with all to ask for help... are the people who need help. You do not have to feel sorry for them but you do not have to cast judgment either.


They could have stopped it though...its not that difficult to ask for help
if they weren't so effin greedy their dogs would never have been in any BAD situation

and THAT is what it boils down to greed, I know if I were making 1000-2000 a puppy it would be pretty difficult for me to let that go
thank goodness I'm not a breeder ^_^

Not to mention...I for one don't care about the people I don't know them nor do I care to know them I care about the animals they're neglecting so I will pass judgment on them because they were selfish


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Not to mention...I for one don't care about the people I don't know them nor do I care to know them I care about the animals they're neglecting so I will pass judgment on them because they were selfish


Agree
ABUSE IS ABUSE, I could care if I know you or I don't. Regardless if you are an animal, child, wife etc. The abuser will likely not stop until they seek help IF NEEDED, the rest is all greed and control, thats in a nutshell.

Grant it as many of us said - the second story is by far worse because the extreme pictures showed this - but the original was no better really, I am sorry I disagree that if one room is not as disgusting as the other we'll let you keep those dogs - it will all rotate it's self out and every dog will likely get their turn at living in the same mess as the other seized dogs.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I can say that I don't think the owner of the home that this woman was living in appreciated her home being trashed to hell and back by someone owning 40 dogs. I don't care if you claim that the dogs were happy and healthy. There is NO WAY a person can take care of 40 dogs by themselves. I think they took 44 dogs out of that house.

Taxi, you and your wife can sit and defend that abhorrent situation all you want, the facts remain the same. The woman was trying to maintain a number of animals that would require a STAFF of people not just one person. She also ruined a woman's home and caused enough damage that she will never be able to pay it off to fix and she was grossly negligent in the care of those animals or else the SPCA wouldn't have taken them. Do you think they just have an overabundance of financial means to support 44 grown standard poodles and an overabundance of foster homes to put them in so that they could be rehabilitated?


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

Olie said:


> Agree
> ABUSE IS ABUSE, I could care if I know you or I don't. Regardless if you are an animal, child, wife etc. The abuser will likely not stop until they seek help IF NEEDED, the rest is all greed and control, thats in a nutshell.
> 
> Grant it as many of us said - the second story is by far worse because the extreme pictures showed this - but the original was no better really, I am sorry I disagree that if one room is not as disgusting as the other we'll let you keep those dogs - it will all rotate it's self out and every dog will likely get their turn at living in the same mess as the other seized dogs.


In your statement you recognize this that these are two different stories. I started posting in this thread to make the point.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Seems some have come to play with Arreau:rolffleyes:
> 
> Not sure you Cherie have judged much differently than anyone else. I find it odd when a poster agrees with one and disagrees with another OVER THE SAME COMMENTS! LMAO


Yepper...funny isn't it? Laura or one of her buddies seems to be back!!


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Yepper...funny isn't it? Laura or one of her buddies seems to be back!!


You got a real problem Arreau... You really need to let go of Laura. What does she have to do with anything in this thread. Seriously you need to look into this statement you just made and why you said it.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Taxi said:


> In your statement you recognize this that these are two different stories. I started posting in this thread to make the point.


I think you underestimate the intelligence of our membership! :lol: We're not as dull or thick as you seem to think!

I did not see any blatant misunderstandings throughout this entire thread (and I just went back and read them all) There were a couple of hiccups as people were posting - but it was cleared up very quicky without problem. I'm pretty sure that everyone understands that there are two stories - two different individuals who had their large numbers of poodles seized by animal authorities. I can't say either one of these women were better than the other - they both deserve a heavy penance. There is zero excuse for mistreating any living creature in this way.

Most of the posts in this thread were discussing the Whispering Pines story because of the photos included with the article.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Taxi said:


> You got a real problem Arreau... You really need to let go of Laura. What does she have to do with anything in this thread. Seriously you need to look into this statement you just made and why you said it.


She may not have anything to do with this thread, but she has something to do with YOU and YOU seem to have it in for Arreau! Please take it to the private messages from now on!


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

KPoos said:


> I can say that I don't think the owner of the home that this woman was living in appreciated her home being trashed to hell and back by someone owning 40 dogs. I don't care if you claim that the dogs were happy and healthy. There is NO WAY a person can take care of 40 dogs by themselves. I think they took 44 dogs out of that house.
> 
> Taxi, you and your wife can sit and defend that abhorrent situation all you want, the facts remain the same. The woman was trying to maintain a number of animals that would require a STAFF of people not just one person. She also ruined a woman's home and caused enough damage that she will never be able to pay it off to fix and she was grossly negligent in the care of those animals or else the SPCA wouldn't have taken them. Do you think they just have an overabundance of financial means to support 44 grown standard poodles and an overabundance of foster homes to put them in so that they could be rehabilitated?


KPoo, I totally agree with you. Too many dogs to take care of and an annoyed owner for trashing the home. I know how much time it takes for two dogs.

I do not speak for my wife or the statements she makes. But please show me any statements I made defending this abhorrent situation. I do not believe that the authorities would put dogs in harms way even as the investigation is going on.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Taxi said:


> You got a real problem Arreau... You really need to let go of Laura. What does she have to do with anything in this thread. Seriously you need to look into this statement you just made and why you said it.


I said it because I have supected from your very first post who you are. And when you come onto a thread or threads where we all have been saying much the same thing, it is pretty obvious when you single someone out you have an agenda. And, you just did it again. I will let go of Laura when she and her buddies quit speaking ill of me, as if they know diddly squat about me or anything I do. And when her buddies quit sending private messages to people on here, some of them my friends who I have invited here, speaking bad about me and makking accusations and insinuations about me. 

This thread is about dogs in need and the human beings who put them in this position. Not about picking on me, or trying yet again to get something going with me. If you continue to do so, I will bow out so it can get back to what we should be focusing on here!


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlelvr said:


> I posted earlier that I had met Grace Lossman of Belcanto poodles about five months ago, and that I had been in that house for about an hour or so. I was with a friend who was looking for a standard poodle puppy. I think there is a huge difference between the two stories.
> 
> While I do not approve of the way the house was maintained, the poodles seemed to be well taken care of. They were kept in a short all purpose clip--no matted coats, no feces encrusted feet. All of the poodles I saw were of a healthy weight with wagging tails and bright eyes. Grace must have spent most of the money she earned to be able to feed all these dogs a raw diet. She also took several of her dogs through agility training at a well respected dog training facility. I believe she truly loves those dogs.
> 
> ...






Taxi said:


> I fully agree





Taxi said:


> KPoo, I totally agree with you. Too many dogs to take care of and an annoyed owner for trashing the home. I know how much time it takes for two dogs.
> 
> I do not speak for my wife or the statements she makes. But please show me any statements I made defending this abhorrent situation. I do not believe that the authorizes would put dogs in harms way even as the investigation is going on.




Looks to me like you agree with Poodlelvr's statements so I take that to mean that you agree with this Grace woman not being completely at fault since her dogs were "in good condition." You also defend the fact that she got some of her dogs back making it seem as if you feel she was being unjustly persecuted in this thread.


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

KPoos said:


> Looks to me like you agree with Poodlelvr's statements so I take that to mean that you agree with this Grace woman not being completely at fault since her dogs were "in good condition." You also defend the fact that she got some of her dogs back making it seem as if you feel she was being unjustly persecuted in this thread.


I do agree with Poodlelvr's statement. She stated what she saw & I was stating what the news article said. Poodlelvr never said Grace/Belcanto not being completely at fault since her dogs were "in good condition." Just because you do not agree with our statements does not mean we are defending Belcanto. Poodlelvr even stated she should not be a breeder.

Some people believe if you do not agree with them you are against them. I do not feel that way.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Nothing is Obvious... if things were so obvious, horrific & deplorable, why did they give Belcanto some of her adult dogs and puppies back? As the news article states "If she's found guilty,...", means they are still looking into it. I am not saying she did not do the things that are stated. My point is, an as you stated, people are Reacting and treating both stories as one before they know all the facts.


So what are you even trying to say here because it sounds to me like you are defending this Belcanto person. You definitely aren't mentioned the Whispering Pines woman. I don't see the point you are trying to make in this thread. Are you trying to say to give the Belcanto person the benefit of the doubt? If you are why? Do you know her?


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

plumcrazy said:


> I think you underestimate the intelligence of our membership! :lol: We're not as dull or thick as you seem to think!


Well I think we do have people who think this community are just a bunch nit wits otherwise we would not keep getting multi alias from certain people :fish::wacko::rolffleyes:


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

plumcrazy said:


> She may not have anything to do with this thread, but she has something to do with YOU and YOU seem to have it in for Arreau! Please take it to the private messages from now on!


Their are two parties involved. This seems like a one sided reprimand. :fish:


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Well I think we do have people who think this community are just a bunch nit wits otherwise we would not keep getting multi alias from certain people :fish::wacko::rolffleyes:


Agreed! It's too bad that not everyone can be honest and straightforward. The internet is a wonderful thing (unless it is used for evil instead of for good!) It allows people to be faceless and nameless; which is why I posted my complete real-life name, address and phone number in another thread - in case anyone wants to actually hear my voice or come to my house to make sure I'yam who I'yam!! :lol:


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Well I think we do have people who think this community are just a bunch nit wits otherwise we would not keep getting multi alias from certain people


lol XD
I think we're all pretty smart here if ya ask me ^_^
:alberteinstein::eyebrows:


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Taxi - come on seriously, you initiated the obvious questionning of Arreaus comments that were no different than the rest of ours. As a matter of fact she was pretty professional about it. 

Its obvious as mentioned WE knew that there were 2 breeders mentioned. HC brought it up way back so from that point on people were a little more specific - but abuse applied to both so if we chose to combine our opinions of what these so called breeders have done, so be it. Why would you even place "question" with that? UNLESS you agree with the said breeder(s).


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Their are two parties involved. This seems like a one sided reprimand. :fish:


Please Taxi...by all means..specify what exactly I did that I should be reprimanded for? I am pretty sure it is all good to have an opinion or voice a suspicion on this forum...


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

Olie said:


> Taxi - come on seriously, you initiated the obvious questionning of Arreaus comments that were no different than the rest of ours. As a matter of fact she was pretty professional about it.
> 
> Its obvious as mentioned WE knew that there were 2 breeders mentioned. HC brought it up way back so from that point on people were a little more specific - but abuse applied to both so if we chose to combine our opinions of what these so called breeders have done, so be it. Why would you even place "question" with that? UNLESS you agree with the said breeder(s).


Olie, I agree with you that Arreaus comments were no different than the rest... I know this is getting out of hand but I never address Arreaus post directly. My post was to the group because as you say "Arreaus comments that were no different than the rest of ours" http://www.poodleforum.com/87507-post43.html I did not single out Arreaus, she just happened to respond to my post and it went from there. That is the crazy thing about all of this. 

I can have an opinion & still not agree with how the breeder acted. 

Yes I have an ails as we all do, but I talk to you all honestly and directly. I am not sending PM's to people and starting trouble. I may not be part of your family but I am a neighbor and have added some positive information within the overall forum. Just because my wife and I have a Bijou poodle do not make us anything other than someone with a poodle. We have no agenda other than to participate in this forum. It is very hard for newcomers to be accepted in this forum if they do not agree with the main group.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Olie, I agree with you that Arreaus comments were no different than the rest... I know this is getting out of hand but I never address Arreaus post directly. My post was to the group because as you say "Arreaus comments that were no different than the rest of ours" http://www.poodleforum.com/87507-post43.html I did not single out Arreaus, she just happend to respond to my post and it went from there. That is the crazy thing about all of this. I can have an opionion still not agree with how the breeder acted.
> 
> Yes I have an ails as we all do, but I talk to you all honestly and directly. I am not sending PM's to people and starting trouble. I may not be part of your family but I am a neighbor and have added some positive information within the overall forum. Just because my wife and I have a Bijou poodle do not make us anything other than someone with a poodle. We have no agenda other than to participate in this forum.



I do not have an alias. Frostfire does not have an alias. There are loads of us on here whose identity is right here for all the world to see.

Olie was not the only person who saw your response as a personal attack against me. As soon as you posted your response, I began to get PM's from people asking who you are and what you have against me. 

I have no personal issue with you or your wife, if you are who you claim to be. I do take issue though with Laura's cronies badmouthing me at every opportunity when they know nothing about me and make insinuations and accusations in PMs to the folks on here. You own Bijou dogs, then you come on this thread and imply I am making judgement against these two breeders we have been discussing here for the past three or four days. Damn right I am judging them. And so is nearly everyone one who has posted a repsonse in these two threads, so I just ask that you not center ME out when most of us are of the same opinion. When you do that, it just makes me more suspicious of who you are and why you are doing this. And again, I am not the only one.

If you are who you say you are, then lets just put this behind us and carry on, and try to work together for the greater good of these dogs who are in need. Maybe one day all of us can make a difference and stop this sort of thing from happening.


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not have an alias. Frostfire does not have an alias. There are loads of us on here whose identity is right here for all the world to see.
> 
> Olie was not the only person who saw your response as a personal attack against me. As soon as you posted your response, I began to get PM's from people asking who you are and what you have against me.
> 
> ...


Again my first post was not directly to you. You wanted to banter and you thought you were being picked on when you kept posting as you do now. Do you think I am picking on you or responding to your post? Because I own a Bijou poodle, you & others may think I am picking on you. Your wrong! I do not know your history with Laura nor do I care. When I post, just keep in mind I have no other agenda. And if you do not want a response from me, then stop quoting me.

Agreed, "then lets just put this behind us and carry on."


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Taxi, I see your point, and I agree to an extent. I don't think Belcanto and Whispering Pines should necessarily be lumped together. Belcanto appears to be a situation of hoarding where the breeder was unable to self regulate the number of dogs in her home, or keep her home in a sanitary condition. It is of course also a landlord-tenant dispute. Whispering Pines goes much beyond that to actual animal neglect and abuse.

However, I do think in both cases it was appropriate for the authorities to step in. I will reserve judgement on Belcanto until we have more information, but I am absolutely disgusted by the situation at Whispering Pines and so saddened at what has gone on there. Whispering Pines should not be allowed to own dogs again, 2 years is a joke.


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I just don't understand why people are making justifications for the Belcanto woman. We haven't seen pictures of the conditions they were in but I can't imagine 44 dogs in one home being in really healthy conditions. Not to mention she was feeding all raw so there is no way feeding 44 dogs raw twice a day inside your home is healthy.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Cdnjennga said:


> Taxi, I see your point, and I agree to an extent. I don't think Belcanto and Whispering Pines should necessarily be lumped together. Belcanto appears to be a situation of hoarding where the breeder was unable to self regulate the number of dogs in her home, or keep her home in a sanitary condition. It is of course also a landlord-tenant dispute. Whispering Pines goes much beyond that to actual animal neglect and abuse.
> 
> However, I do think in both cases it was appropriate for the authorities to step in. I will reserve judgement on Belcanto until we have more information, but I am absolutely disgusted by the situation at Whispering Pines and so saddened at what has gone on there. Whispering Pines should not be allowed to own dogs again, 2 years is a joke.


Im sorry cdnjennga 

I disagree about you saying Belcanto was just a hoarder and whispering pines is different! both are hoarders and have probably mental issues.... Whispering pines situation was just worst. You can tell the breeder at WP has mental issues by reading her blog.

Animal hoarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Animal Hoarding


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Here are some pictures of animal hoarding its rare when an animal hoarding is PROPERLY taking care of all of the dogs and animals they have...

animal hoarders - Google Search


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Yep... concerns about her for years. Mental health issues etc. Glad someone finally did something.
> 
> I think she owns the sire of Vacheron's dogs. (Anybody talk to Vacheron lately?)


By the sound of things, Belaconto also has some problems as well. I think we may be surprised if photos of the Belaconto situation ever arise that we can get a look at. My opinion is some of us are judging the Whispering Pines situation more harshly BECAUSE there are photos, which CLEARLY show what deplorable conditions her dogs were living in. Obviously the Belaconto woman had an issue with reality, or she would not have been living in a rented home with 44 dogs. So, if/when photos are available, it will be interesting to see how it all compares. I am sure there were people who went to Katie Dokken's home who saw part of the house and felt the situation was just fine there too. We'll see.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Im sorry cdnjennga
> 
> I disagree about you saying Belcanto was just a hoarder and whispering pines is different! both are hoarders and have probably mental issues.... Whispering pines situation was just worst. You can tell the breeder at WP has mental issues by reading her blog.
> 
> ...


I'm saying I don't know enough about the Belcanto situation to pass judgement. I certainly don't agree with keeping 40 plus dogs in your home, no, but I would have to have more information before I'm going to lump her in with Whispering Pines, who I have read enough about to have made my mind up on. And yes, I agree she has deep rooted mental issues, I read her entire blog yesterday!

Perhaps they were both hoarders, but WP crossed over to neglect/ abuse as well. Perhaps Belcanto was just stopped before things got that bad, or perhaps we just haven't heard how bad it was! My point is I won't rush to judgement before we know all the facts. And so I'm not going to paint them both with the same brush.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> By the sound of things, Belaconto also has some problems as well. I think we may be surprised if photos of the Belaconto situation ever arise that we can get a look at. My opinion is some of us are judging the Whispering Pines situation more harshly BECAUSE there are photos, which CLEARLY show what deplorable conditions her dogs were living in. Obviously the Belaconto woman had an issue with reality, or she would not have been living in a rented home with 44 dogs. So, if/when photos are available, it will be interesting to see how it all compares. I am sure there were people who went to Katie Dokken's home who saw part of the house and felt the situation was just fine there too. We'll see.


Thanks Arreau I agree ! There is no way in hell one person can take care of 44 dogs by them selves period.

I feel that most of the people who are posting in this thread don't really understand what hoarding is. If you watch animals cops not one time have they showed a clear hoarder .... Being Clean and hoarding is an Oxymoron !


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think everyone needs to look at what animal hoarding IS. ALL animal hoarders keep their animals in horrid conditions. There aren't clean animal hoarders. If you have 44 dogs living inside your home, you are an animal hoarder no ifs ands or buts about it. There is no more information needed. I don't think I even want to see the photos. WP's pictures were enough for a long time.


----------



## barkley (Apr 29, 2010)

It is easy to pass judgement on someone we do not know, especially when we are all such poodle lovers. We got our puppy from Grace a few months ago (she was recommended by a friend who does agility training with her poodle she got from Grace). Our puppy was (and still is!) happy, healthy and well adjusted. She loves poodles and knows a lot about them. Please try to give her the benefit of the doubt.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

barkley said:


> It is easy to pass judgement on someone we do not know, especially when we are all such poodle lovers. We got our puppy from Grace a few months ago (she was recommended by a friend who does agility training with her poodle she got from Grace). Our puppy was (and still is!) happy, healthy and well adjusted. She loves poodles and knows a lot about them. Please try to give her the benefit of the doubt.


Did you go into her house?


----------



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Ugh, keep getting the two hoarders confused.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Grace didn't have the dead dog, Katie Dokken did... but it sounds like both places were bad off for the dogs...


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Did you go into her house?


good question I would like to know also.


----------



## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

what a sad situation  for both cases. Sad for the dogs and sad for the people involved. I have a hard time wrapping my mind around how and why anyone would intentionally mistreat an animal. Operation within the hoarding theory though it wouldn't have been intentional, right. I remember when I first started looking for a poodle I ran across Belcanto once or twice. I ended up with a rescue though so I had forgot all about some of the breeders I looked at until this thread when the kennel name rang a bell. 

I can't imagine taking on so many poodles, even had they been small ones. I have my hands full with the four dogs I have. I have been guilty of grooming mishaps, and while I had an excuse I won't say it was acceptable. I even posted photos on the forum of the before and after when I finally did drag my butt off the couch to bath and clip the girl. They were always well fed and up until our little hickup in Febuary recieved tons of attention. We're getting back to receiving tons of attention  

Kind of sad that help couldn't have come sooner for these folks/dogs. 

Hoarding is not nice, or funny, but I have to say it is something that has 
always made me curious. 

Some of what has been said or what is in the reports reminds me of a breeder here in Fla that had all her dogs seized. She had multiple breeds rather than just one but had a whole bunch of tibbies which is how we were involved. We took several. The breeder maintained that she had done nothing wrong and defended herself stating that " there is no law against being untidy" The pictures would have disgusted and one of the tibbies had to have two blood transfusions and almost died due to flea infestation. To be honest looking at the photos and seeing the condition of the dogs when we were able to get them out of the shelter fleas were the least of this lady's issues.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Cdnjennga said:


> I'm saying I don't know enough about the Belcanto situation to pass judgement. I certainly don't agree with keeping 40 plus dogs in your home, no, but I would have to have more information before I'm going to lump her in with Whispering Pines, who I have read enough about to have made my mind up on. And yes, I agree she has deep rooted mental issues, I read her entire blog yesterday!
> 
> Perhaps they were both hoarders, but WP crossed over to neglect/ abuse as well. Perhaps Belcanto was just stopped before things got that bad, or perhaps we just haven't heard how bad it was! My point is I won't rush to judgement before we know all the facts. And so I'm not going to paint them both with the same brush.


I actually agree w/ you. IMO, WP was nothing more than a puppymill. I do judge her more harshly b/c I've not only seen pics but I've read her blog and her post on other message groups. Her own words speak volumes. As for Belcanto, I haven't seen pictures, I've only heard what the landlord says. Perhaps she was a WP in the making, who knows. Until I see actual evidence or conviction, I'm reserving judgement. I agree that one person can't care for 40+ dogs in a private residence but I'm still not sure that's how many she had. I've seen reports in the teens, the 30s and the 40s. Sorry but the media likes to report first and then check their facts later. and then they hide the retractions in tiny print.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

It seems like theres been a lot on poodles lately.. or do we just hear about it more from the forum.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Nope. I belong to a few other forums and haven't heard anything about other breeds. There was also a huge puppymill raid of over 200 dogs including Poodles and Poo mixes.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Nope. I belong to a few other forums and haven't heard anything about other breeds. There was also a huge puppymill raid of over 200 dogs including Poodles and Poo mixes.


Was that Gayla's Poodle Palace or something similar?


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

Yeah, that was it, in Sparta TN.


----------



## nwduran (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, I do know her. A more wonderful breeder does NOT exist! She is extremely careful 
in testing for all genetic defects and her poodles are ALL well trained, calm and with 
wonderful temperaments. As far as the cats go--she does Cat Rescue--and they are all 
great with the poodles etc. If the ASPCA has taken these dogs--shame on them!


----------



## nwduran (Jul 21, 2010)

*40 Poodles taken*

Yes, I know Grace Lossman and respect her as a breeder and as a trainer.
I am the lucky owner of one of her Poodles. I looked long and hard to find him
and picked Belcanto because of her insistence on breeding only dogs with 
proven genetic testing. She is rigorous in her standards for health and temperament. The dogs--all of them--have fabulous dispositions and are all in Agility training. As far as cats go--lucky devils--they are rescues. Yes, she does Cat Rescue!
I have owned dogs--Standard Poodles and German Shepherds all my life and know only too well the results of getting a puppy from an indiscriminate breeder! Grace Lossman deserves our respect and well wishes!


----------

