# Some interesting new info regarding bloat



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

BLOAT & A LINK TO POTASSIUM DEFICIENCY






Let's hope they begin to have solid answers to help us make sure our beloved pets never have to suffer this horrible disorder! Every step helps!


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Thanks for the Good Read Arreau.

Please remember the majority of articles about Bloat and Torsion are *theories*. Do not run out and buy potassium to feed to your dogs. Wait and see if this theory pans out first. 

I do question the one statement about "Why is it that pedigree dogs have a higher risk factor than mongrels, to bloat?" I do not believe this statement to be true.
I also wonder how proof that wild animals do not bloat was tested? I will need to do some research about both of these issues before I could trust the theory. I like articles with sources at the bottom so you can see if the research is valid.

I remember when one article said to feed your dog on a raised platform. Many breeders and owners went out of there way to only feed with raised bowls. After maybe 10 years the next theory said raised bowls contributed to bloat. I am glad research in this issue is ongoing but am not sure if this research is significant at this point in time.


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

thank you, arreau. i know that finding the cause of bloat is important to you, especially in light of your experience with your beautiful boy, thinker. i, personally, fear bloat because of seeing it firsthand while working as a vet tech many years back. a harlequin dane was brought in at end stage and the sounds coming from that poor boy were some of the most disturbing noises i ever heard, not to mention the helpless feeling you have that you are so limited as to what you can do, especially at that stage. therefore, jessie is tacked.

the article was very interesting and maybe they are onto something. one line in particular struck me "_A potassium deficiency causes the contractions of intestinal muscles to slow down considerably, or the muscles to become partially or completely paralysed. Such a deficiency can occur while taking diuretics, or cortisone, after surgery, diarrhea, and other forms of stress_" STRESS...interesting...stress causes stomach acid, gas - which leads back to the same concern: stress can cause bloat - we know this. antacids control acid. antacids effect the absorption of potassium. it's a catch-22. if this theory is correct, then maybe the monitoring of the potassium levels would be the key to prevent bloat in high risk breeds.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks for the info ...bloat is one of the most horrible things I have ever seen. Our last Spoo went through it, we were 2 hours from the nearest vet. I recognized the symptoms immediately, we jumped in the car and fortunately found an animal crisis centre with amazing facilities in under 3 hours into the onset. When we left him at the clinic, the prognosis was bleak, but because he was young (1 1/2 years) and healthy, he survived! But he did pass on before his 6th birthday, apparently of heart failure. I let the breeder know on both instances, but never got any response from her either time  
As far as pedigree dogs having a higher risk factor than mongrels, to bloat ... not everyone can recognize the signs. If your dog is a purebred and you have researched your breed, would it not make you more aware, therefore get it to the vet! Whereas in a mixed breed, you maynot recognize the symptoms if you are there to see it. It's a fairly quick death, and people may not realize what caused the death.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Warning: Potassium is something you can get too much of as well as too little of. It has to be balanced. Be very careful when adding potassium supplements to any diet. It isn't recommended without consultation from a veterinarian. It isn't a water soluble vitamin, but fat soluble. Megadoses of vitamins A, D, E or K can be toxic and lead to health problems.


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

I briefly looked up some things and found it confusing, Potassium what are we talking about, potassium chloride, decried as a mineral in mulivitamins? Potassium decried as an an electrolyte? Is this like vitamin A which is fat soluble and Beta-carotene which the body converts to vitamin A as needed?

In this link its said to be excreted easily in the urine unless there are Kidney problems. I think I would like to give my dogs a bit of Potassium if it is an electrolyte and would be toxic only under mega doses or kidney problems, but I would need to know that I'm getting the right thing.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Potassium is an electrolyte. Don't use Potassium Chloride as a supplement. Sodium, Chloride and Potassium have to be kept in balance in the body. It isn't that you can't or shouldn't give it, but mega doses of this electrolyte can be harmful (some people think more is better). Research before you decide to add potassium supplements. Excess potassium can cause heart, kidney and muscle problems. Not enough can also cause problems. A healthy body regulates the potassium within a very narrow margin balancing it 2:1 (I think that's it in people anyway) with salt (sodium and chloride). Diarrhea and vomitting cause loss of potassium. 

Maybe the balance of the potassium and the salt in prepared dog foods is off and that's what this paper is talking about, but a purely raw diet could easily be low in potassium, too. 

I would have my dogs potassium level checked before I added this electrolyte, but that is just me. Why add something if they aren't hypokalemic (low in potassium)?


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## judyf (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks for posting this. I have never seen bloating; this video will allow me to recognize the symptoms immediately. Frightening, though.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

That video was horrible to watch, and I just kept wondering why they weren't rushing the dog to the vet rather than filming, but I was watching without sound so maybe there was narration that explained.

I will say that I'm so thankful that when my boy bloated it never really got that bad before I *knew* something was wrong and we were headed to the vet. In my case, my boy just wouldn't settle down after eating his dinner and kept pacing, and maybe panting. He tried to rest a few times, but never really was able to get comfortable. When he did lay down it was not in his normal sprawl, but rather a very uncomfortable looking "sphinx" type pose, and then only for a few seconds before he was up again.

After the vet sent us home with some Malox (I think??) we almost made it to the car when Gabe roached his back and kept trying to vomit, without success. Of course this all happened at night and the vet's office was closed so I had to beat on the window to get someone to help us.

Thank heaven it was still early enough for them to decompress his stomach via tube (This time they took an X-Ray only at my insistence and his stomach was HUGE!) and I had him tacked after he had healed a bit. 

I don't think the symptoms are exactly the same in every case and in Gabe's case he was saved from more serious consequences because I responded fast and his stomach never torsioned. It seems to me that the best protection is to be aware of what's normal for your dog and get them to a vet if things just aren't right.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Sparkyjoe - You brought your dog to the vet with bloat and he gave you Malox? Thank goodness you insisted on an x-ray. You must have been furious with your vet.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> Sparkyjoe - You brought your dog to the vet with bloat and he gave you Malox? Thank goodness you insisted on an x-ray. You must have been furious with your vet.


Yes, I was fairly furious, and SO grateful I trusted my I trusted my instincts & knew my boy well enough to *know* that there was a problem. I think part of the problem was that there aren't a lot of SPoos in this area so the vet didn't know of the super high incidence of bloat, plus since I got him there so early it wasn't as obvious as, say, the Akita in that video.

I never went back to that office & I took Gabe to a local emergency/specialist vet (MedVet) for his gastropexy.


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

:angry:


catsaqqara said:


> I briefly looked up some things and found it confusing, Potassium what are we talking about, potassium chloride, decried as a mineral in mulivitamins? Potassium decried as an an electrolyte? Is this like vitamin A which is fat soluble and Beta-carotene which the body converts to vitamin A as needed?
> 
> In this link its said to be excreted easily in the urine unless there are Kidney problems. I think I would like to give my dogs a bit of Potassium if it is an electrolyte and would be toxic only under mega doses or kidney problems, but I would need to know that I'm getting the right thing.


i wouldn't supplement potassium "just because". there is no definite evidence just yet, just a theory - maybe the best theory yet, but still a theory. my vet does a full blood panel with jessie's yearly well visit. if your vet is not doing that, i would request it. you could also request a mini panel which is not as expensive and will give you enough information on the important values.

i just have to vent for one second: i have to say how much it irritates me that the more progressive society becomes, the more self-destructive it becomes and the more fraudulent it becomes. i am relating this to the dog food industry. if they are so advanced, then how could it be these "complete" foods are NOT complete ?? i, personally, don't feed kibble or canned wet - i feed partial raw and cook organ. regardless, many people do feed kibble - & expensive kibble at that - wouldn't it be tragic if something happened to their dog that was directly related to a problem with the food ingredients?? :angry:


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*A bit OT--Bloat...Theories...PHR...Sebaceous Adenitis*

Please, please do keep in mind that this is THEORY. It's been said already, but I'm sure that there are people who are so terrified of bloat that they will begin to supplement their dogs diets with potassium. Too much potassium kills. It is fatal. The only way to regulate potassium levels is through regular blood samples/lab work. 

It could be that less mongrels bloat, than purebreds, but I guess that depends on how many mongrels there are out there, vs purebreds and how the count is kept. It may also indicate that genetics does come into play..

I would strongly encourage each and every one of you who has had a poodle bloat to please get that information to the Poodle Health Registry. There has been a lot of controversy over the years and I've heard a lot of arguments for not registering bloat issues, some of those are as follows:

It's throughout the breed, any poodle can bloat"
That is.. another unproven theory and one that I've heard promoted by folks who have lots of bloat in their lines. By not registering bloat episodes with PHR these folks are withholding the very information from PHR that can be used by researchers to help prove or disprove theories. 

It's not genetic, it's environmental (or stress induced.. or....) That is... another unproven theory and onethat I've heard promoted by foils who have lots of bloat in their lines.... the other thing that I must add here is no where on the Poodle Health Registry does it say that it is a registry for genetic diseases. It's not. It never has been. It has always been a registry for health issues whether genetic or not, whether the cause is known or not, in poodles. 

My breeder won't let me tell. Groan. Stop and think about that for a minute.. this answer turns my stomach. Any and all breeders can have a health issue in their lines. Anyone who breeds long enough WILL have a health issue in their lines. Ethical breeders know and understand this. They encourage the owners of their puppies to register their health issues with PHR as it is good for the breed. I know of many breeders who will assist in filling out the PHR paperwork, if assistance is needed. When a breeder tries to insist that a health issue not be registered, be assured that breeder is more concerned with their reputation, the income they make from selling puppies than they are with the well being of the breed. Also.. if you own the dog, the breeder has no say in whether or not the health issue is registered with PHR. The owner is the only one who can submit a PHR registration.

Through the years, there have been lots of theories, bloat caused by beet pulp in the diet, by citric acid, by feeding with raised dishes, by feeding with dishes on the floor, by feeding dried food that expands too quickly in the moisture of the stomach, by exercising immediately after a heavy meal, by drinking ice water, by feeding kibble rather than raw, by free feeding, by changing dog foods to abruptly, by stressing the dog emotionally, by the dog eating too quickly. I'm betting that we have a whole lot of people on this list who manage their poodle in a way to intentionally eliminate at least on of these suspects in causing bloat. The people who do these things do them to help protect and keep safe the poodles in their care. Please remember before doing things to check them out, make sure that they are not just the latest in a series of trends or fads that ultimately put your poodle at higher risk for bloat or other health issues.

But there is something that everyone can do that goes beyond the health of the individual poodles, that helps the entire breed: Please register those health issues, whatever they may be with the Poodle Health Registry. As owners, we want answers. We can get those answers a whole lot quicker, if we, as owners smooth the way a bit for researchers, by having information ready for them when they are looking, rather than making them waste their time digging for information. We can take care of our individual poodles, but by registering health issues with Poodle Health Registry, we are also taking care of the future of our poodles and the breed as a whole. (A quick mention here, the Poodle Pedigree Database, which is also an awesome poodle resource is NOT the same as the Poodle Health Registry. Each serve much needed and appreciated, but very different functions. If you need help registering a health issue with Poodle Health Registry, please ask.)

I've spoken with lots of heartbroken poodle owners through the years... owners of poodles having one health issue or another. There is currently a study going on regarding Sebaceous Adenitis (how many times have we heard from owners with poodles having SA?) that study has been exquistely slow in progressing... for lack of participation by owners having affected poodles. 

Please keep in mind we have lots of poodle health theories and not a lot of facts. When presented with something such as this bloat study (which I think is awesome and fingers crossed it gives us some factual answers!) learn to recognize what is fact vs theory and use extreme caution when acting on theory.

If you own or know of a poodle having a health issue, please, do what you can to have that health issue registered with PHR AND try to participate in any studies regarding that health issue. We owe it to our poodles.


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## fortylittletoes (Nov 25, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> It could be that less mongrels bloat, than purebreds, but I guess that depends on how many mongrels there are out there, vs purebreds and how the count is kept. It may also indicate that genetics does come into play..


I also think that vets tend to just use the "closest" breed description when reporting. We thought my lab/GSD mix was bloating when she died last fall, but it turned out to be a huge tumor (that we were unaware of) that caused her spleen to rupture. When we got her paperwork back from the vet school, I noticed that they'd classified her on all of her paper work as a GSD, not as a mix. 

It makes me wonder how all the Doodles are classified- my bet is that most of them are as "poodle".


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

> That video was horrible to watch, and I just kept wondering why they weren't rushing the dog to the vet rather than filming, but I was watching without sound so maybe there was narration that explained.


*LOL...that was exactly my reaction....."why are they filming this, when they need to get that dog into the Vets right now!!!" I'm glad they saved him...

I woudn't mess with potassium at all, or at least not unless the Vet had done complete blood work, and my dog was verified as too low (or too much)...an overdose, and it can cause permanent damage to the heart (or cause a heart attack)....too little, the same thing....with side elements of kidney and liver damage....it's a scary element.

p*


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