# looking for a working spoo



## tortoise

I have a working mini, so I'm not much help on working standards. Forum member sarpoodle has one, maybe he can help you?


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## gabi

thanks i also have mini poodle he is 7 years old i'm working with him on agility even that we started bit late he progress quite good. but now i want to start with a pup with strong drive and a real athlete


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## Marcoislandmom

Try Louter Creek. Their dogs are definitely working hard. Some great shots of them doing field work.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

I have/have had "high powers". High energy, high drive. But careful with that, make sure it's coupled with problem solving and intelligence, otherwise you just have a neurotic dog who doesn't know how to focus attention.

Vic (recently deceased) and Gilley are highpowers, although with Gilley, I worked hard to "make" him into what he is. I had every intention of using him as my next search and rescue dog before my life went down the drain. Gil would have made an excellent SAR dog.. and I still have my regrets over not training him, but I just didn't have the resources to put into him when it was ideal. Thinking of using him for a shed hunter this year (shed deer antler finder dog) and suspect he's gonna love every minute of it.

My question is.. are you sure you need one? Do you have a job for it to do? 

There are a number of breeder's who have "high powers" most don't advertise them as they are tough dogs to deal with, they HAVE to have a job or they will make one. I'm betting that there are some in the UK.

If you don't need a young pup, you may want to put the word out with animal rescues and shelters. High powers are notoriously the kind of dogs that end up in animal shelters because people can't handle them, yet when matched with the right owner, make the most incredible dogs.

When I breed, which is rarely, no litters planned for this year, one of my focuses is on dogs with excellent work potential. That means a strong work ethic and the drive to back it up.. but... not over the top in behavior. I want a dog who can settle and be calm, even if their minds are going a mile a minute. Many poodles are "dependent" on their owners, seeking approval of what they do and not wanting to move out and off. I want poodles who seek my approval, but are extremely confident and willing, able and comfortable working without having me in direct line of sight (referring to SAR work). A clingy high power just doesn't do it for me.

Good luck to you.
Darla


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## gabi

Marcoislandmom said:


> Try Louter Creek. Their dogs are definitely working hard. Some great shots of them doing field work.


they looks great but the problem is that it in US i prefer if there is something in europe because i travel a lot in europe so i can chack the pupy


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Ahhh.. Agility. I think there are quite a few poodles doing agility in the UK. I believe there is a training club which puts on a couple of all poodle matches a year. 

You may also want to check with the Versatility in Poodles website to see if there is anything there.

Good luck!


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## zyrcona

You might be better off looking for any breeder who temperament tests and has a suitable pup, rather than a breeder who breeds for working dogs, as there tend to be a variety of temperaments in a litter and getting a pup from working parents doesn't guarantee the pup will grow up to be similar.

I know a German breeder who is nice, does health testing, has lovely dogs with diverse pedigrees. I don't know how 'working' her dogs are, but I have seen pictures of them swimming and doing stuff like that. She has taken them to shows for fun and has done reasonably well from what I understand. I can give you her contact details if you want to PM me. I think she is having a litter of blacks and apricots early next year. There is also someone in France who breeds dogs from an old line that often gets touted as a working line, although that doesn't necessarily mean the dogs are any better at working than poodles from any other line.


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## gabi

thank you Darla for your response 
maybe i didnt explain myself good enough i look for a dog that will be good for agility because my mini poodle is a bit old and not so "enthusiastic" abut it 
i plan to work with the dog and also use the dog as my running partner .
my mini poodle is from a shelter and i know there are very good dogs high driven but where i live standard poodle are very rare.
i agree with your coment about balance dog that can direct his energy


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

My bad. I was skimming and didn't read well enough.

Agree 100% with Zyrcona and the temperament evals. 

Poodles come in all sizes/shapes/colors and.. talents.

While I prefer a poodle who is loyal/responsive to me, who is great a problem solving and has a great work ethic, I like mine really smart and fairly independent. That means that they are going to take direction from me.. to some extent, but not always.

Let's say I wanted Vic to do an agility circuit. She would probably be fine the first few, maybe even the first 20 or 30 times, bored stiff, but she would do it because I asked her to. Eventually though, she would have come to me, laid down, and given me the look that said "REALLY? You think this is fun? YOU go do it." Now, let's say I took something tiny, like.. a key and hid it out somewhere in the agility ring. Vic would literally work until she dropped looking for what ever it was I told her to look for. Despite my deep love for Vic and our wonderful relationship, Vic was not always an easy girl to be around. She's been known to herd ducks into my house, climb up on the roof of a house and not know how to climb back down (she knew someone would carry her!), ransacked my cupboards, dumping several pounds of sugar/flour/chocolate chips and olive oil all over the kitchen floor, moved the neighbors water hoses.... The list goes on. Smart, very very smart.. easily bored, needs a job. When I look for a working dog, this is what I want.

Then there is my Valentine, I've never met a sweeter girl. If I wanted her to do agility, she would do it totally without question, until she dropped. Super people pleasing, works close, needs direction and approval. Val is an "easy keeper" for me, she doesn't get into mischief, she's just there to make me happy and keep me that way. Val would be an ideal agility dog, and while Val is very eager to do whatever makes me happy, she doesn't have that inner drive which makes her do things for the sheer pleasure of it. So, Val could be a great agility dog (in fact several of her offspring have done quite well in agility), but as a "working" dog, she's capable, but needs motivation and supervision.

Big difference in personalities, both people pleasing lovers, Vic, is what I would consider a working dog, Val, is capable of working, but is more what I would consider an agility dog. 

I would try to find other people involved with poodles in the UK with agility and also.. would certainly check out the information that Zyrcona is offering.

Darla


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## gabi

maby my lacke of experience with poodle confused me , i just know that GSD from a working line is totaly differnt dog than show line


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Ahhh... But poodles are the masters of versatility. There are many show poodles who also have agility (as well as other titles) titles. So long as the structure and temperament are sound on a poodle, what lies within the potential of that poodle is left to the poodle's personality (work ethic, drive, stamina and willingness to please) and the owner/handller's skill and dedication to training and motivation.

Guess what I'm saying is.. doesn't matter what lines a poodle is from, make sure that temperment and structure are sound AND that it has a willingness to please. Drive and stamina can be built.

Poodles truly are the most versatile of all dogs breeds. While that doesn't mean that poodles excel at everything, it does mean that they can DO just about everything. If I wanted to choose a poodle who excelled at a particular function, then I would really take a close look at that function as well as the desireable traits.

I am confident that there are plenty of poodles in the UK who are capable of not only being agility competitors, but are very able to excel in agility.

Darla


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## PoohFan

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> She's been known to herd ducks into my house, climb up on the roof of a house and not know how to climb back down (she knew someone would carry her!), ransacked my cupboards, dumping several pounds of sugar/flour/chocolate chips and olive oil all over the kitchen floor, moved the neighbors water hoses....


OH MY! Ducks?!?!? :ahhhhh: That is too funny when it is read, but I'm sure it wasn't in reality?

Is this what you would call a "highpower" dog?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Vic, was most certainly a high power. Not because she got into mischief, but because of her energy and problem solving abilities.. she HAD to have a job. Dogs of this nature frequently do not do well unless their minds are engaged with something... kinda like a hyperactive child, except without attention deficit. Give them a job and they will spend forever at it.. .well.. unless they come up with a solution first. Vic learned at a very young age to get the treats out of the treat things (you know..the ones that are designed to keep dogs occupied for long periods of time?!?) by picking it up and shaking her head enthusiastically--that usually empties them out in less than a couple of minutes.

The ducks.. I wasn't happy about. I was in bed asleep, she was bored. When I discovered what she had done (as soon as I opened the bedroom door), I commanded her to take them back outside (not quite in those words!). She did. Then she came back inside for her treat. She had me soooo well trained! I sure do miss her!


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## petitpie

I love your Vic stories!


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## PoohFan

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> The ducks.. I wasn't happy about. I was in bed asleep, she was bored. When I discovered what she had done (as soon as I opened the bedroom door), I commanded her to take them back outside (not quite in those words!). She did. Then she came back inside for her treat. She had me soooo well trained! I sure do miss her!


I'm rolling in laughter just picturing that! I have never heard of any dog who has done anything even resembling that. Wow! It's no wonder that my soon-to-be trainer laughed when I told her that I had a standard poodle. She said that he has already outsmarted me.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

In all seriousness, owning a highpower.. takes a lot of energy and a lot of thought. They love doing things and it's fun teaching them to do things on command but, just because they CAN do something, doesn't mean you should teach them.

At one time, I thought that it would be handy to teach Vic to ring the doorbell, just in case she ever got shut on by accident or escaped from the backyard. She did learn to ring ours, but I didn't reinforce it, in fact, I ignored the door if I knew it was her. Why? I didn't want her to figure out that she could do it at other peoples doors. I can just imagine her discovering that if she rang the neighbors doorbell, they would come to the door.... She would have had the whole neighborhood in an uproar.

My vet suggested that she never be taught to open things such as drawers, the refridgerator or ovens.. after he treated a standard who had opened an oven door and grabbed a turkey. That poodle had severe burns to it's mouth.


Working dogs.. need jobs. 

They may come in the same physical packages as other dogs (meaning they may or may not, as the case may be, have what it takes to be conformation show winners), but working dogs tend to have a bit different psyche. 

There are all sorts of working dogs, including service dogs (the kind who assist people having disabilities, not war dogs). Service dogs, obviously, can not have a bounce of the wall/ceiling type personalities.

Darla


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## Paragon

Yadda,

You speak of my life in part! Poodles are a howl! Princie will chase the goats back to the barn if they get out, and venture too close to the house... He is allowed to do so, and would not hurt them, he takes this as one of his jobs. He is also able to distinguish between our Muscovy ducks who are herded to the pond, and wild ducks who are dispatched! 

He is a bit diferent than some, in that his drive has an on/ off switch! Thank goodness he hasn't learned to ring the bell! 

His most puzzling trick was when he would let himself out of his kennel, steal stuff, then lock himself back in his crate before I returned!

I thought I was going mad when things dissapeared! I knew the dogs must have been behind the caper! I finally caught him by pretending to leave, and parking next door then returning after a bit. He was caught! He ran back to his kennel, and only got one latch done up!

Poodles with drive are always an adventure to live with.... We love our kids and would have it no other way! I do like a balance, and not strait drive!

Paragon Kennels


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## Leooonie

you say you want a 'working dog' but do you know what this entails?
It means A LOT more training to keep that energy in control, it means constant thining about how to entertain your pup, and also thinking of ways to maintain that drive in the correct way.
Having looked into working poodles, I have found many good breeders on eurobreeder.com
it's just a matter of sifting through to find one in a country that you think looks appropriate.

I would love to one day show, work and breed spoos.. but its going to take alot of effort to find the right dogs, and even then there is no guaruntee (spelling x( ) that your dog from high driven parents will be the same!


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## lily cd re

I would also say go for balance rather than drive. I think that a poodle that was driven like a border collie would be very hard to live with. My girl is driven by her desire to be with me and to get praise for jobs well done. She can be very insistent and persistent. Witness that she drove our overnight dog sitter out of our house by insisting that she throw a ball around the bedroom from 11:00 PM til Jane gave up around 2:00 AM. We turn her off by taking all of the fetch and throw things and putting them up on top of Scott's dresser.

You mentioned working GSDs being different from other GSDs in one of your posts. My other dog is a GSD, so I know a bit about them too. There are all sorts of different GSD lines. Generally the GSDs with the most even temperaments and best physical soundness are from europe (Germany, Czech Republic, etc). The american breed standard ruined the american lines in terms of them looking like dogs that can herd.


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## gabi

why do you think poodle that dirvan like border collie would be hard to live with ? 
if you work and exersice with the dog 

about the GSD my i don't know mutch abaut lines i just know from the army the GSD look diffrent then the usual GSD whan i asked why they told me that this is working line


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## lily cd re

All border collies I've ever seen wanted to work all of the time. They are meant to be able to run after sheep across acres and acres for hours and hours. I don't believe that most people can realistically give them the amount of exercise they need and deserve. I live in a suburban area. Nobody I know has sheep and ten plus acres, but there are plenty of border collies. Spoos need exercise, but they do have an off switch that you can find without running yourself into the ground.

As to military and police GSDs most of them are from europe.


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## Indiana

lily cd re said:


> All border collies I've ever seen wanted to work all of the time. They are meant to be able to run after sheep across acres and acres for hours and hours. I don't believe that most people can realistically give them the amount of exercise they need and deserve. I live in a suburban area. Nobody I know has sheep and ten plus acres, but there are plenty of border collies. Spoos need exercise, but they do have an off switch that you can find without running yourself into the ground.
> 
> As to military and police GSDs most of them are from europe.


I totally agree; having had bc's and now a drivey poodle, look for a balanced poodle if you do get one. In my experience, which admittedly is based solely on the dogs I've had in my lifetime, drivey poodles are very hard to live with because you are not just talking about exercise (oh how I wish that were the case!). They need to have a job or lots and lots of interesting challenges or they will destroy your things, dig giant holes in your yard, take up nuisance barking, chase other animals, become escape artists....sky's the limit for new and creative ways to make mischief! Yes they are very very smart but you will find that does not automatically translate into trainability. Balanced poodles are smart too, but they are content to hang out with their humans once they've had a good run and some romping, unlike the drivey poodles who easily run 6 or 7 k with you in the morning, followed by a vigorous game of fetch in the back yard for an hour, which is only an appetizer for the real fun--figuring out how to get into things you only THINK you have put out of their reach! You know those jugs with the ropes that you unscrew at the bottom and put kibble in? They're supposed to be a fun toy for your dog as the dog attempts to get the kibble out of the opening at the top of the jug by playing with the rope. Maddy unscrewed the bottom of the jug and ate all the kibble in 1 minute and 30 seconds the first time I gave her the toy!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

lily cd re said:


> My girl is driven by her desire to be with me and to get praise for jobs well done. She can be very insistent and persistent. Witness that she drove our overnight dog sitter out of our house by insisting that she throw a ball around the bedroom from 11:00 PM til Jane gave up around 2:00 AM.


That's too funny! I'm still laughing.. but oh how I understand! When I first moved into my house in Vancouver, I found that the next door neighbor was a wonderful man and an avid dog lover. I talked with him the very first day and asked him to PLEASE, PLEASE, never throw anything for Vic. Of course he did when I wasn't there to see. So then she wouldn't leave him alone. She would bring her balls to the fence line and drop them. If he ignored her, she brought other toys (Vic always gave choices.. kinda like a person looking for a treat their dog would work for, she looked for the toy that would motivate the person....) and would put them through/under the fence. If he still ignored her, she offered a bit of encouragement by barking at him ("hey, you... I'm telling you, this is what I want you to do.. PAY ATTENTION! It's fun!) and of course, when he would give in, she would reward him enthusiastically. (YES! GOOD neighbor! That's exactly right!). Anyway, after throwing for her once, then giving in a couple more times.. he finally 'fessed up to me (I already knew what he had done) and asked for help. I told him if he wanted to pet her, give her treats to feel free, but just ignore the throw items. The next few weeks were really funny. It started out with just a few balls on his side of the fence, then more and more toys, until there was a whole row of toys. He told me he was having a tough time holding out... I encouraged him to "be strong". He told me that he felt sorry for her, as she didn't have anything to play with. I assured him that she had a full toy chest in the house AND.. she had put her toys on his side of the fence, she was quite capable of getting them back all by herself, without human intervention. And then one day.. I don't know what happened-- but Vic gathered up all of her toys and brought them back to my side of the fence. After that, she got petted from the neighbor.. when he felt like it and she received treats from him, when he felt like it. 

I guess I should also admit, rather sheepishly, that among Vic's toys.. was her very own tennis ball launcher. I don't mean one of those manual chuck it things. I mean a professional, electric, load 25 balls (or more, I never counted actually) and launch them, kinda thing. Vic did a great job of training me...


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## lily cd re

*very funny*

Your story is a great way to start the day. It sounds like Vic and Lily would be great pals. It is funny how they will try and try until they eventually change their minds. In the interest of a good night's sleep we don't usually wait for Lily to decide she is done. We help her to decide it is really time to go to sleep by gathering up the things she wants us to throw for her (little stuffed animals) and putting them on top of Scott's dresser. She gets her final go to sleep signal from the last light turning off. In the morning you know she is really up for the day when you find her sitting next to the dresser looking expectantly upward at the stash of toys.

We don't keep balls out in the house. Both dogs are obsessed with them. It would be chaotic if they had loose balls in the house. They have been taught to drop the balls at the back door when they come in from yard play. I often throw one ball and have it come back with two dogs attached to it. Quite a sight...will try to get a picture of it to post.


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## Sookster

I think that there is a difference between "drive" and "energy level" that is being overlooked here. I'm going to throw my two cents in. 

I have a poodle (Sookie) that has a ton of drive. I call her a border collie in a poodle suit. By drive, I mean work ethic and desire to work with her person. She wants to work, wants to have a job to do, and thrives when given the opportunity to problem solve and learn new things. 

As to her energy level, she is higher energy than my other Spoo (Nova), but I wouldn't call her a high energy poodle. Yes, she needs walks and energy outlets, but in all she's pretty much a couch potato until she's stimulated. When she's on, she's all on and LOVES it. But she has an off switch. That, I think, is the difference between a poodle and a border collie or GSD from working lines. The off switch. Every poodle I have worked with has had one. I'm sure there are probably a few outliers in the extreme end of energy level and drive that don't, but I feel that's a rarity in the breed, even when looking at so called working lines. What I have seen is some really flashy show poodles who were dumb as a box of rocks, or who had so little work ethic that training them to do much more than lie still on a grooming table was a chore (not impossible, just not fun for owner or dog; and training should be fun). I've also seen show poodles who can walk out of the conformation ring and into the agility ring and excel at both. And I've seen hunting poodles who wouldn't stand a chance in the AKC ring because they are too "moderate" and not that flashy, but who are structurally and temperamentally sound and can work in the field all day, then go home and snuggle on the sofa all night. 

I also agree that poodles tend to be more versatile and not have such a distinct difference between "working" and "show" lines, but I think that difference can still be there. I think you can go with a breeder who breeds more for drive and work ethic or a breeder who breeds more toward calm show or therapy dogs. I'm not really sure why everyone is so discouraging at looking for a more drivey poodle. I doubt the OP is going to find one that is as intense and high-energy as a border collie. Poodles aren't border collies and were never bred for such purposes as running all day after a herd of sheep. 

I, for one, when I go looking for my next poodle, will be looking for a drivey, athletic poodle. That's what I like in a dog. I want a poodle that likes to learn and thrives on having a job to do (my dogs do have jobs). I know from experience that a dog with low work ethic is just not what I want (I have one, Nova, and I really struggle with her sometimes; she's wicked smart and can learn anything, just doesn't have any desire to).


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## Quossum

Wise words from Sookster. 

I get more of a feeling of "good work ethic" and "thoughtful" from good-working poodles rather than the kind of almost frantic driveiness that one associates with border collies.

I consider my boy a drivey, good-working spoo. It's hard to tell what his ultimate energy level will be, since he's only nine months old and still working on puppy energy, but he's also quite active and restless. His drive to work is high, and when we go into training mode, he is really, really on. In fact, one of his challenges had been to get him to obey my release word and get him to *leave* work: he wants to just keep on doing working at whatever task. 

He's a pleasure to work with.

My pup isn't from "working lines," though his pedigree has many UKC and AKC champions. I just asked for the best performance prospect from the litter. I know that within one litter of poodles, there can be personalities ranging from mellow to intense! I'm not saying that *any* litter could have a good performance prospect in it, and yes, there are some breeders out there who focus more on sports, but in general, a good-working poodle is a different beast than a good-working BC.

Good luck!

--Q


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## lily cd re

Yes snookster, well said. It is about the off switch. You want the dog to be very attentive and focused, willing to work when that is what is being done, but able to turn it off and lounge on the couch with you when you are done. I also agree that poodles are more thoughtful about what they are doing than are many other breeds. GSD are thinkers too, unfortunately my boy (GSD) is really just a full time couch potato. He is very sweet and a pleasure to be with, but not a hard worker. Lily loves to work and needs it too.


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