# Conformation Critique



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I recently buzzed Trev down pretty short, and had the good idea of taking photos so you guys can critique his conformation. Keep in mind that I'm not breeding or showing him (he's very much neutered.); the closest he will come to being shown is at a grooming competition! I just want to learn more about poodles and their structure. And don't worry about pointing out his negative points, I now he has plenty, I just want to see if I'm missing anything.  I went ahead and marked his rear and shoulder angles to make it easier for y'all. I also took a video of his movement; if you want to see it let me know and I'll post it.  Also tell me if I'm stacking him correctly...I'm still working on learning that!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Such a cutie! I love the photo straight on of him.  And thanks for marking those points! It makes it so much easier to see things!

His back looks a little arched and I'd like to see a better topline. Is it just the way he's standing? Because he does look better in the second photo. He's got nice _long_ legs but I'd like to see more angulation in his legs. Nice tight feet in back and I like his hind view - good distance between the two back legs. Looks like he's got good length of neck. I have the hardest time evaluating tailsets unless they are blatantly off. His looks average, maybe it could be a little higher?

Based on the lines you've drawn, his pelvis is at 30 degrees (as it should be) and his shoulder layback is just about 45 degrees. I'd like to see a little more upper arm angle and length. 

Looks like he has good chin on his head!

I'm not totally used to the smaller proportions on a mini (LOL) but his loin, based on where I gather his rib cage might end, appears to be short and strong.
That's about all I know enough to take a shot at! I am new at this, so pardon if I have made any mistakes.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks CM...IMO, you've hit the nail on the head for him.  Oh yeah, I meant to mark where his last rib is...I'll have to do that. As far as I can tell, his loin is fine, BUT I'm new to this as well so I could be wrong.  And yes, he has a very slight roach, although there IS one photo where the way I had him stacked made it more pronounced. I didn't actually discover that fact until I buzzed him, that's how slight it is. And I just have to say that his head is, IMO, to die for. He's got a beautiful, well proportioned, head with awesome chiseling of the face. Photos don't do him justice because he is black. Everyone who sees him (and knows anything about poodles, lol) comments on his beautiful face first thing. I'm very proud of my boy, as you can tell. 

ETA: something you can't see very well in the photos is that he toes out...it's really easy to stack him to where it's not really apparent and when he moves you can't tell, but if he's just standing around he most definetly does.

ETA again: ok, I marked where his ribcage ends.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> * I'm very proud of my boy, as you can tell.
> *
> .


And you should be proud!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I know little about poodle confirmation, but I think this idea is great! I am going to go home and get some pictures of my guys this weekend and post them for everyone's opinions.

We can have an online Poodle Specialty Show. 

Spectacular idea, mom24doggies. To whom do I send my entry fee?

I know my opinion doesn't mean much, but I think Trevvor is a handsome fella. (and I do love the leg sticking out of his chest i the first pic - my daughter often ends up in photos the same way. lol)


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

BorderKelpie said:


> I know little about poodle confirmation, but I think this idea is great! I am going to go home and get some pictures of my guys this weekend and post them for everyone's opinions.
> 
> We can have an online Poodle Specialty Show.
> 
> ...


 Oh yes that would be fun!! *claps hands* I love looking at all the different poodles.  

Lol, well, I'm running a little short on funds right now, so send those entry fees right on over!!  Don't worry, they will go to a good cause...probably some new shampoo and shears.  And hair growth supplements...all for the dogs of course. I spend waaay more money on my dogs' grooming needs then my own!! Only the best for my furkids.  

Oh my goodness, I didn't even notice the leg!!! Hahaha....hey, I always knew Trev was special, now I have proof: he has an extra (human!) leg!!! And of course your opinion matters.  Everybody has an eye for what is pretty...when I take my dogs to the park, EVERYONE notices Trev..."oooh, he's so pretty, he looks like he could be in a show!" "Do you show him?" "He's so happy!!" "he's so soft, I didn't know poodles were soft!" And then they go "oh, are these your dogs too?" *pointing to poor Sam and Pepper* Lol...well at least "those other dogs" know I love them too.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I know what it is! It's his first 'leg' towards his Championship!!!

oh, wait, that's for rabbits. hmm. 

Why not, this is an internet Poodle Specialty. 

Congratulations on his first Leg.



I have a question since you're a groomer. My Paige has a patch of weird hair on her rump just before the base of her tail. It's not soft, it's crinkly and harsh, and a bit darker than the rest of her hair. I find myself rubbing vit e hair polish on it almost daily. Have you ever seen that?

(and I know what you mean on spending for the dogs - I was laughing the other day that I blow dried the poodles since it was cold, but I let my hair 'cage dry.' I almost froze to death, but the poodles were comfortable.)


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

BorderKelpie said:


> I know what it is! It's his first 'leg' towards his Championship!!!
> 
> oh, wait, that's for rabbits. hmm.
> 
> ...


 ROFLOL!!! Heeheehee, I like your sense of humor.  

Yep, I've seen that patch of weird hair...a lot of times it's caused by some trauma to the skin, like a hotspot. Spot on flea treatments can also cause it. Seeing as it's at the base of her tail, I'm going to guess it's from flea treatment, if you use that. If you quit using it, the hair should eventually grow back normally, although it may take a few months.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Hmmm, I guess it could be the spot on, I just don't remember putting it that far back. Maybe she got a little surface trauma, she's quite the little tomboy. She runs, jumps, wrestles, climbs, rolls.........and finally about 8pm, crashes. *whew*

Now, little Bug man, well, he just cuddles and snuggles and cuddles some more. Strange, the drastic differences in personality.

Thanks for the reply. Just for my own silliness, I'm going to keep rubbing conditioner on it (I _might_ be a bit of a control freak.) lol


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

This is so fun! It is nice having others take a critical eye to your dog. I did it and seem to have survived in one piece. Looking at your picture reminded me that I took some pictures of my girls front and rear straight on like that, but I don't recall posting those. Hmmm. I guess I forgot!

I am a novice. I have studied the breed standard over and over (makes for dry reading) and looked at lots of pictures, trying to decide what I like and don't like and what poodle people think is important. Trying to see what is right about my girl and what I would change is fun to me (am I weird?). I've watched a lot of dog shows to see what wins, but sometimes I scratch my head at those. 

To me, your little guy looks pretty nice. His face is gorgeous and he has a wonderful chin. A lot of poodles lack chin. He seems to have that desireable chiseling under his eyes. Chin and chiseling make such a difference in expression. You should be proud to stare in that face every day. 

His torso looks nice, too- short with an almost flat back (any roach he has is very minor). His legs are very long and slim. That is where I see a few gliches. As everyone has pointed out, they should have a nice bend at the knee and he doesn't. Also, if you draw a line up his front leg, his front leg intersects somewhere on his neck and it should intersect back further. No worries, though. Most poodles have a front end issue and I have had a hard time finding photos of a correct front (thanks CM for the one I did get). His rear legs are set nicely apart and straight. He has nice feet. Some of the smaller dogs have feet a bit flat. I agree his tail set could be smitch higher, but it is pretty good. His coat is really black. His ears are place correctly (helps with expression, too). 

All in all, he is a very nice looking mini and a great representation of a mini poodle. I would be proud to own him, he's a doll.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

BorderKelpie, it's entirely possible that Paige injured herself bouncing around...who knows.  And just because you didn't actually apply the flea treatment to that spot doesn't mean it didn't come into contact there...I've heard of cases where someone put a drop betweent the shoulder blades and at the root of the tail and ended up with funky hair in a line all down the the dogs back; that flea stuff travels, that's why the instructions say to make sure it comes into contact with the skin.  Conditioner certainly can't hurt her, I would definetly keep doing it.  Hope her hair comes back normally at some point. 

Thanks outwest.  Nope, you aren't weird for looking at poodles and trying to figure it all out and enjoying it...if you are weird, then I am doubly so!! And ya know what, I really like being weird, it's a lot of fun.  

Yes, his head is indeed his best feature. I tell him everyday how beautiful he is and give him a kiss...he's one of those few dogs that likes kisses on the face. Or at least tolerates them well.  I've seen his front end issues, good to hear that confirmed. He has a decent (as in ok, not great) amount of forechest, although you can't really see it because of the angle of the pictures. It's mainly his lack of depth of chest and the fact that his whole shoulder needs to be moved back some that creates some issues. If you get a chance, could you send me that picture of the poodle with a properly built front? I don't think I've seen one either. 

His feet have greatly improved since puppyhood...his front ones used to be completely and totally flat. Age and lots of exercise on different ground textures have made them passable. For my next poodle, that's one thing I will be looking for is good feet, although it may be hard to find in a mini. I've only seen like one or two that actually had good, correct feet. His tail set is definetly a tad low, but it's easy to fix by taking his topline really short. It should actually be shorter then it is now, but I decided not to do any "styling" other then extra neck hair.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I promised not to share the pic of the dog with the correct front. I keep my promises. 

The thing I found interesting is with the exception of that one, people were unable (unwilling?) to provide a picture of a correct front when I asked. With the millions of poodles out there, you would think there would be tons of good fronts, but apparently not! Which makes me think breeders should all breed for a better front, but to actually get one is extremely rare. My dogs dam and Grandsire had a correct front, but alas it was accompanied by shorter front legs! I have only seen that one pic of a dog with a correct front and the longer legs everyone loves. Doing a search on line for pictures only brings up DRAWINGS of a nice front, which is why I say not to concern yourself with it. He and millions of other poodles have the same one as he does. 

I, too, like nice feet in a mini because you don't see it very often.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

oh well, I'll have to see if I can find one myself.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I've been wanting to do this same thing with Albi when I take her down this summer. I think I know most of her faults, but I want other people's opinions!

I made this graphic awhile ago from probably the best stack I got out of her (she's such a pain about moving as soon as I grab the camera!), but I think the haircut disguises more than I'm seeing. She is noticeably butt high without a jacketed clip than my lines show and I'm not sure if her tail is as highset as it ought to be either. She has crummy feet and I wish she was more square! She also holds her tail _super_ gay most of the time, much more than this pic shows. She does have a very pretty face, like Trev, good chin and chiseling, fantastic ears (since I've shaved them recently, I love them!).










I will post better pics sometime in summer when I take her all the way down, but if anyone has opinions on this, I'll take 'em!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

lavillerose said:


> I've been wanting to do this same thing with Albi when I take her down this summer. I think I know most of her faults, but I want other people's opinions!
> 
> I made this graphic awhile ago from probably the best stack I got out of her (she's such a pain about moving as soon as I grab the camera!), but I think the haircut disguises more than I'm seeing. She is noticeably butt high without a jacketed clip than my lines show and I'm not sure if her tail is as highset as it ought to be either. She has crummy feet and I wish she was more square! She also holds her tail _super_ gay most of the time, much more than this pic shows. She does have a very pretty face, like Trev, good chin and chiseling, fantastic ears (since I've shaved them recently, I love them!).
> 
> ...


. Other then what you listed, it seems to me like her upper arm is a bit short and she _might_ be able to use a smidge more angulation in the stifle. She's a very pretty girl though.  I like that trim on her! You can barely tell that she's a smidge long. I don't think her tail is too gay...let's just say I've seen a whoooole lot worse.  Trev's is slightly gay as well...unfortunately, I don't see many poodles with a well set AND a straight tail...it seems to be that they get one or the other. Just something I've observed...


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Thanks!

Her tail is usually way up over her back, nearly touching it when she's super excited, so her holding it practically correct in this photo is very misleading! I agree about her angulation too, I've always suspected she could use a bit more at the knee and in front. I think her shoulder angle is good, but yeah, she needs more forearm to move her leg back to where it should be. She'd have a better chest if that was the case as well, since her ribspring is very nice IMO.

She's been in non-poodle clips and lots of hair for so long I can barely even tell what she looks like now that she shouldn't be changing shape anymore. In this photo she was only about 8mos. But I guess once summer comes we'll see the whole shebang.


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