# Toy or Mini poodle breeder recommendations.



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Tell your friend to save for another 2 months and then get a quality poodle from a quality breeder when they can afford one. 

The take-away lesson is delayed gratification.


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## OliverThePoodle (9 mo ago)

Ok, thanks. I agree. I really want a Golden Retriever, but I know that the $500 ones are very likely going to have problems, so I'd be aiming for the $2000 range. 

I'll see if they're open to it. They recently lost their poodle due to old age, and really want another one. 

They are open to rescuing-any good organizations?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Welcome! 

It's so unlikely that your friends will find a well bred poodle or any purebred dog for that matter for less than $2000 USD, and that's on the low end. 

The loss is hard to bear but this is something that your head should be along for the ride with your heart. 

I'm going to add some tips to help them avoid "breeders" that focus on their profits rather than the dogs. One of the hardest ideas to grasp is that quality breeders are not running a business and they aren't making their living from the dogs they breed.

The biggest changes in the last 15-20 years have been the availability and use of health testing, to avoid some heartbreak from the beginning and the proliferation of "show me the money" "breeders". 

You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for miniatures and toys there is also one DNA test.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.

USA
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America

Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

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A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

That is the price range, toy poodles only have 1 to 3 puppies per litter and reputable breeders tend to hold back females for their own breeding program. 
I am on a wait list with a well regarded breeder who does conformation and agility with her dogs, they all are titled. Because I want a particular color and a female, I won't see a pup until next year, my puppy application got approved in December.
I got my discount puppies, they cost me in medical bills and heartache.
4 years ago I bought my toy poodle boy for $2500, he is from 10 generations of show and from the top show breeder in the U.S., my boy is beautiful and healthy.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

For under $1000, they might be able to get a dog from a rescue. Some of our rescues require a "donation" of more than that. They also require a home visit so they will most likely be restricted to rescues in their area. My state doesn't watch the rescues properly so we get puppy mills pretending to be rescues. If they always have a bunch of puppies available and don't have older dogs, and don't do home visits, it is probably a puppy mill.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

OliverThePoodle said:


> They are open to rescuing-any good organizations?


Rescue is an amazing option but there's more little known facts to consider.

Conscientious breeders almost always have a clause in their contracts that they will take back any dog they have sent to a new home to make sure that that dog doesn't end up in open rescue. They want to have a hand in finding the new home just as they did the first family. 

What this means is that many of the dogs that end up in open rescue are more likely to have issues, health, behavioral, or both. This isn't saying that any dog that ends up needing a rehome is a bad dog but they are less likely to come from a good breeder. If a new family understands this and is prepared to take on the possibility of additional challenges, bless them for doing that. 

If a family understands the possibility of additional challenges and knows that they're not prepared to take that on, there's still choices.

One is to contact the conscientious breeders that they'd otherwise consider buying a puppy from and ask about rehomes. They will have the occasional take back puppy. 

Another is to contact breed-specific rescues. Sometimes the breeder has retired themselves, sometimes the family doesn't know who the breeder was. 
Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)


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## OliverThePoodle (9 mo ago)

Thanks for all the information! It is very helpful.


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## HuggieBean (10 mo ago)

OliverThePoodle said:


> Hi, a friend of mine is looking into getting a poodle. I want recommendations if at all possible.
> 
> 
> These are the details of what they want:
> ...


I'd say look into adoption... Toy poodles I know have very small litters so they are very expensive, and honestly you kinda want a quality pup or you'll end up spending the extra money in vet bills later


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## OliverThePoodle (9 mo ago)

HuggieBean said:


> I'd say look into adoption... Toy poodles I know have very small litters so they are very expensive, and honestly you kinda want a quality pup or you'll end up spending the extra money in vet bills later


Ok, I've started looking at finding ones for them to adopt-do you have any recommendations on organizations?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

You rarely find nice small dogs to adopt where I live, especially poodles or poodle mixes. The volunteers who regularly walk the dogs in dog shelters have first dibs on any dogs that come in. They get to put their name at the top of the list. They are vetted like any other prospective adopter … but because they get in so quickly and the rescue knows them, the vetting goes so quickly that the dog rarely is advertised to the public… if it does get advertised, it’s already adopted by the time the general public call in.

It might sound unfair, but I’ve known people who have volunteered for several years waiting till a poodle came into the rescue that they could adopt. It might help if you or someone you know volunteers at a rescue.

There are poodle specific rescues, usually connected to local poodle clubs. Use the links below to see if there a poodle rescue near you. 



Rose n Poos said:


> USA
> PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
> PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
> 
> ...


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