# To Spay or Not to Spay?



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I think you want to get her spayed for the reasons you stated but you are scared, which is understandable. I think you should make an appointment.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

What mini poo said, I have the feeling you think about it a lot, you want to get it done, but you are spooked by your previous experience and your deep love for Timi. 

I think if you wait, it will be constantly in the back of your mind and you will dread it.

Were it me, I would get it over with.

I was so terrified when Misha was done because of her liver problems and history of very delayed waking up from previous anesthesia. The vet knows I'm a nut, but I made him mask her down, no acepromazine, I was worried she would go too deep. I made them promise to call me the second she woke up. Remember I was with her when she woke up from her tooth pulling. 

But once it was over and she was healed I was so relieved.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh geez, I did not think that there would be such direct clear answers - thought there would be more debate and wiggle room.
Because I just don't want to, I just don't!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know if you remember, but we did Misha's spay spur of the moment. We thought she had or was getting Pyometra and vet didn't want to wait. It was kind of a blessing because I didn't have much time to dwell on it. 

I don't envy your decision!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> I don't know if you remember, but we did Misha's spay spur of the moment. We thought she had or was getting Pyometra and vet didn't want to wait. It was kind of a blessing because I didn't have much time to dwell on it.
> 
> I don't envy your decision!



Ahh, as stressful as that was, yes indeed you were spared the decision.
I don't know, maybe this Is just part of my "process" - I took Jole's spay such an insignificant, ordinary thing, gave it no more thought than getting her shots, that Now I really have to put it under a microscope and make sure that it is the right thing, at the right moment, all the stars lined up as perfectly as I possibly can swing it....


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Imagine your life with Timi intact, having to deal with her going in heat repeatedly. If you are okay with that, just get her teeth taken care of. 

You have had dogs spayed since Jole and it turned out okay. Do you really want fear to make this decision for you? Decide if you want an intact poodle or a spayed one.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> Imagine your life with Timi intact, having to deal with her going in heat repeatedly. If you are okay with that, just get her teeth taken care of.
> 
> You have had dogs spayed since Jole and it turned out okay. Do you really want fear to make this decision for you? Decide if you want an intact poodle or a spayed one.



Well I know that I want to spay her eventually, just wondering if I should wait a few more cycles to get it done....
And it is really more the anesthesia that I am worried about than the procedure, so it would not make much sense to just do the dental.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would do it so Timi can go to her dog park or classes or a photo shoot every day of the month. You have the most important stars in alignment - a top flight veterinary team for both procedures and a fit, young dog. Given your previous experience, I don't blame you for taking your time with the decision and reviewing the research. Not one bit.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

TP, you may be asking yourself the wrong question. It isn't whether or not to spay. It is whether or not you will.ever feel comfortable enough for ANY procedure requiring anesthesizing. You only want to put off the decision to spay to put off the decision to sedate her.

You said that her teeth need attention now and that you cannot wait. Is there anything you can do to feel more comfortable with Timi getting her teeth taken care of and being spayed? That may be the real question.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> I would do it so Timi can go to her dog park or classes or a photo shoot every day of the month. You have the most important stars in alignment - a top flight veterinary team for both procedures and a fit, young dog. Given your previous experience, I don't blame you for taking your time with the decision and reviewing the research. Not one bit.



I really don't know what else I could do. I don't really like that it will be in a hospital owned by a Vet that I don't like, and who does not like me I am sure, but she won't be working on Timi, just responsible for the pre-op and aftercare. I guess I would feel better if she was going to a place where I trust everyone, but it is too late to try and change now.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

why is it too late to change? it's not as though this is an emergency surgery, right? i wouldn't want someone i didn't trust. it will only make you more tense and unhappy the closer you get to the surgery. check around a bit more and maybe even interview the vet first.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> why is it too late to change? it's not as though this is an emergency surgery, right? i wouldn't want someone i didn't trust. it will only make you more tense and unhappy the closer you get to the surgery. check around a bit more and maybe even interview the vet first.



It would take too much time to interview Vets, find one that I like them, the facilities, the policies, will allow that Surgeon to operate at their hospital, and has a good dental person, who has a dental X-ray machine, they don't all have them, my last vet didn't (and how would I even know that they are good - I know that this one is good from the extensive work that she did on Tangee and Teaka) - in fact loosing her will be my one regret in leaving the practice. 
I do want to get it done mid-cycle, and I am already running a little late on that, the 15th marked 3 months from when Timi's first heat began. If I don't do it at this practice, I will definitely have to wait for the next cycle.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If you have already made the decision to spay her at some stage, I would wait another cycle and find a veterinary hospital where you trust all the people who will be responsible for her care - before, during and after the op. When you have found the right place, book the date, no matter how many months ahead, so that the decision is made. One more cycle will have minimal risk in terma of mammary tumours and pyometra, so the only downside is the inconvenience of not going to the dog park, and you have time to find alternative places to exercise her. Or make the decision I have, which is only to spay if it becomes medically necessary, which carries its own anxieties.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Tiny Poodles, there are different types of anaesthesia. I would discuss your options with whoever will administer it and do a blood test beforehand just to be a bit surer all will be well.

Maybe you could do teeth now, and spay on her next mid-cycle. The teeth do sound pretty urgent and might allow for a shorter time under (but could be wrong, might be longer-the vet can say for sure).

I think there is a different type of spay available that leaves the ovaries. That might possibly have fewer side effects since she'd still have her hormones. But she might still have some heat cycles?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Streetcar said:


> Tiny Poodles, there are different types of anaesthesia. I would discuss your options with whoever will administer it and do a blood test beforehand just to be a bit surer all will be well.
> 
> Maybe you could do teeth now, and spay on her next mid-cycle. The teeth do sound pretty urgent and might allow for a shorter time under (but could be wrong, might be longer-the vet can say for sure).
> 
> I think there is a different type of spay available that leaves the ovaries. That might possibly have fewer side effects since she'd still have her hormones. But she might still have some heat cycles?



Oh yes, she will have pre-op bloodwork, Isoflurene, and full monitoring during surgery. This place did Tangee and Teaka's dentals at age ten, and those took 3 1/2hours for Tangee, 2 hours for Teaka, and they did fine.
And actually the dental part will take the significant time, one of the reasons that I want this surgeon is that I have previously overheard Vet techs say that she is astoundingly fast - like under 1 minute for a neuter, under 2 minutes for a spay.

And yes, I did look into ovary sparing hysterectomy, but decided against it because they would indeed still have cycles with all of the behavior changes that go along with it. The only things it really protects against is pregnancy, and Sort of pyometria - I have heard that stump pyometria is still possible.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> If you have already made the decision to spay her at some stage, I would wait another cycle and find a veterinary hospital where you trust all the people who will be responsible for her care - before, during and after the op. When you have found the right place, book the date, no matter how many months ahead, so that the decision is made. One more cycle will have minimal risk in terma of mammary tumours and pyometra, so the only downside is the inconvenience of not going to the dog park, and you have time to find alternative places to exercise her. Or make the decision I have, which is only to spay if it becomes medically necessary, which carries its own anxieties.



Thank you. But when I read that, my reaction is that I don't want to see what additional personality changes another heat might bring.
I also think that the most important part is trusting that the facility does everything right as far as the anesthesia goes, and from Tangee and Teaka's experience, I think that they do. Plus, from their experience, I like and trust their dental person very much, and that is something that I could not know about a new place without going through it...
And with this surgeon, it is very unlikely that there will be any after care issues, and even if there were, there is a very good emergency hospital right down the block from us. So what am I really trusting the regular Vet to do - listen to Timi's heart, and run her bloodwork, really not a big deal.

Ha, I hope you don't mind, but I think that your telling me to wait, has made me decide to go ahead with it


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Nothing like playing Devil's advocate, and clarifying the debate!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> Nothing like playing Devil's advocate, and clarifying the debate!



Thank you, I am going to call on Monday.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Late to the discussion, but glad to see you are ready to make the call. My childhood beagle had mammary tumors because we never had her spayed. I had Lily done before her first heat cycle because Peeves was staying intact and I didn't want him ever to get any ideas about her. I was worried about the nature of their life long relationship. As you know since you've met her, she's fine!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

How old was Lily when you had her spayed? There's so much talk about leaving them until after their first heat cycle, that I sometimes worry about having Abbey done. I think we made the right decision for our circumstances, but she was one week short of nine months old.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

She was actually about seven months old and I too feel that it was the best thing to do given the circumstances of her living in a home with an intact male. She is very athletic and has never had any orthopedic issues despite a very active lifestyle.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well I made the call, she will get back to me on Thursday with the dates that it can be done.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Tiny,
I am glad you made the call. You will be glad when it is over. Our prayers of course will be with your girl on that day.

By the way, that new picture of Timi is FANTASTIC !!!

Viking Queen


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Viking Queen said:


> Tiny,
> 
> I am glad you made the call. You will be glad when it is over. Our prayers of course will be with your girl on that day.
> 
> ...



Thank you (I wish I had clipped her face a bit smoother, but oh well, I do what I can do 
I will take you word that I will feel better when it is over - right now I feel terribly guilty, like I am about to betray my girl who has never known a moment's pain in the worse possible way. I keep thinking of Jolé's face pleading with me not to leave her with the vet, and me thinking "silly girl, you don't know what is good for you", and look what happened... Repeating that scene as I know I will with Timi is going to be more difficult than I can possibly describe....


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

You both really will be fine! You have the entire Poodle Forum with you on this one.

I remember 13 yrs ago when I dropped Iris off for her surgery....by the time I picked her up I had a MASSIVE stress migraine. So we went home and both went to bed together. She with her pain meds and me with my migraine meds. The next morning Iris was bouncing around like normal and I had a headache hangover from the drugs.

It will be fine! (((HUGS)))

VQ


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Viking Queen said:


> You both really will be fine! You have the entire Poodle Forum with you on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh yeah, I know I will make myself sick over this - I won't sleep the night before, and I have this thing - I dropped Jolé off, and went home like nothing, and then at 1:00PM, I got a very strong feeling that Jolé was calling to me for help, that they were killing her. I brushed it off thinking that it probably meant that they had just started the surgery, and that is how it felt from her perspective, and made a mental note to ask them what time the surgery had been. Then at 2:00 they called and told me that she was dead, and my whole world crashed down upon me. I asked what time she died, and they told me 1:00. The Vet asked me why I asked her what time it happened several times and I never answered her. I have since wondered if somehow she knew that I made that connection with Jolé and wanted to hear about it, but I did not feel like answering her questions at that moment, I couldn't even breath...
Anyhow since then, I can never leave when my girls have anesthesia, I think that they know when I am close by, and can "hear" me telling them don't leave, stay with me. I hope that doesn't sound too flakey - I understand that it is something that you have to experience to believe that it isn't just imagination or wishful thinking, but I truly feel that I can connect with them when they are in that state, and I feel that the closer I physically am, the stronger connection I can make.
Plus, I think it is good to be right in the staff's face - a good reminder that not this time, you don't get lazy, or sloppy, or distracted - you stay on your toes and do this by the book, or your worst nightmare is sitting in your waiting room.
So I won't go, will be sitting right there running on pure adrenaline for as long as it takes, I imagine at least 8 hours before they discharge her. And then when we get home, I am not sure what I am going to do, because My bed is high, and I would be afraid of her falling off, or stumbling if she tried to use the doggie stairs. I just might not be able to go to bed, and will have to hold her all night...I hope maybe her pain meds will knock her out enough that maybe she would stay in a soft crate, and I could bring it to bed with me, but I don't know if that would work...


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

If you're worried about the anesthesia, maybe your vet can do some tests beforehand just to make sure she can take it. My vet does some heart testing to my chinuahua before putting her to sleep, to make sure her heart will be fine during the procedure. He does it because she is so small (4 pounds). I never had a problem and she was spayed and had her teeth cleaned at least 4 times, all under anesthesia. She's 11 now.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

When I had to be sure Sophy could not jump/fall off the bed I took the small canvas crate up and put it where it could not possibly fall off, close to my pillow. That way she could sleep on my bed, and wake me if there was a problem, but was safely contained. I have slept on a heap of sofa cushions on the floor before now, too!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Just let us know the date so we can all be with you in spirit while the surgery is going on. Massive prayer circle.

Wish I could send you my secret weapon for stress. He's my great friend and chiropractor. He does this lovely thing with my skull when I am stressed and it has me oozing off the table. Stops migraines in less than 5 minutes and melts stress away. Hmmmmm....his Mom does live in New Jersey.... Maybe we COULD send the good Dr. Gil to you . . He's funny too and loves doggies.

Wish I could be there to keep you company.

Cathy


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> If you're worried about the anesthesia, maybe your vet can do some tests beforehand just to make sure she can take it. My vet does some heart testing to my chinuahua before putting her to sleep, to make sure her heart will be fine during the procedure. He does it because she is so small (4 pounds). I never had a problem and she was spayed and had her teeth cleaned at least 4 times, all under anesthesia. She's 11 now.



What kind of heart testing do you mean? After my first one died, I did not spay the second one, but she wound up having to have a huge reproductive mass removed and spay at age ten, so when I decided to have the next one spayed, I took her to the Cardiologist before the spay, and she listened to her heart, but said that there was no testing that could be done that would be predictive of an anesthesia death. 
My current Vet is good at picking up murmurs - she has picked them up in my two of my elderly poodles so far, and when they went to the cardiologist, the cardiologist graded them the same way as she did, so I trust her to listen to Timi's heart.
And of course Timi will have an exam and full bloodwork before the procedure. I will also ask her if testing hr clotting factor is necessary - I was going to, but recently read that dogs with Von Wildabrans (sp?) will bleed excessively during a heat, and she did not, she bled very lightly.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> When I had to be sure Sophy could not jump/fall off the bed I took the small canvas crate up and put it where it could not possibly fall off, close to my pillow. That way she could sleep on my bed, and wake me if there was a problem, but was safely contained. I have slept on a heap of sofa cushions on the floor before now, too!



That is what I hope I can do, put some coflex on her belly, and put her in a small soft crate in the bed, just not sure how she will react to it. If she doesn't like it, we will end up on the floor...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Viking Queen said:


> Just let us know the date so we can all be with you in spirit while the surgery is going on. Massive prayer circle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aww, thank you, it really helps to have friends who understand and will be praying/thinking of her that day!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> What kind of heart testing do you mean? After my first one died, I did not spay the second one, but she wound up having to have a huge reproductive mass removed and spay at age ten, so when I decided to have the next one spayed, I took her to the Cardiologist before the spay, and she listened to her heart, but said that there was no testing that could be done that would be predictive of an anesthesia death.
> My current Vet is good at picking up murmurs - she has picked them up in my two of my elderly poodles so far, and when they went to the cardiologist, the cardiologist graded them the same way as she did, so I trust her to listen to Timi's heart.
> And of course Timi will have an exam and full bloodwork before the procedure. I will also ask her if testing hr clotting factor is necessary - I was going to, but recently read that dogs with Von Wildabrans (sp?) will bleed excessively during a heat, and she did not, she bled very lightly.


It was a long time ago so I don't remember. I just know the dental cleaning cost me almost double because of this test. The vet said it was to make sure she could withstand the anesthetic. I can call and ask if its to any value to you.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> It was a long time ago so I don't remember. I just know the dental cleaning cost me almost double because of this test. The vet said it was to make sure she could withstand the anesthetic. I can call and ask if its to any value to you.



Thanks, but I am thinking that most likely he did an ultrasound. Did your baby have a heart murmur? That would make sense if there was a murmur, but the Cardiologist said that there was no test that they could do in a healthy dog with no murmur that would be predictive of am anesthesia problem.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Thanks, but I am thinking that most likely he did an ultrasound. Did your baby have a heart murmur? That would make sense if there was a murmur, but the Cardiologist said that there was no test that they could do in a healthy dog with no murmur that would be predictive of am anesthesia problem.


No, she doesn't have a heart murmur.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dechi said:


> No, she doesn't have a heart murmur.



Hum, I wonder what they did then. I know that previously my Vet said that there is no point in doing an EKG on them prior, because they put one on them right before putting them under, and through-out the procedure, and that is when it is relevant.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Yikes, just heard what the fee is going to be (without the dental, which hopefully Petplan will cover) I could keep her intact, and buy another poodle!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Why so much?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Why so much?



I think that they are charging so much to discourage us from using the highly skilled and experienced surgeon, and encourage us to use her 20something newbie doctor that she has doing most of their spays. It sucks, but when I think of Jolé, I would sell my soul to pay for it....


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't blame you!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Ugh, and my friend just got a quote from my old Vet's place, for the same Surgeon, exactly half the price! (And don't even think it, even if I could go back there, they don't have the skills or X-ray machine that Timi needs for her dental, but no way I could go back there even if the dental was not an issue).


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And finally today, for the first time since her heat, the full Super Timi was back, leading the pack in circles around the dog park - and soon I will take her out of commission again :-( speaking of which, does anybody remember how long it is after a spay when they are allowed back to full out dog park type fun?


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

May SuperTimi lead the pack and fly high forever.
Gracie, queen of all she surveys.


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## MaceeChocKisses (May 19, 2015)

I'm happy you decided to spay... It truly encourages me to do the right thing... I've only had one pet fixed before and it was a male... So all my females I've ever had wasn't fixed! I'm afraid because Cocoa is a small girl and this surgery just kinda scares me! But I don't really want to deal with heat... And I truly want what's best for her! So with that being said I'm sure Timi will be fine! 
Also my breeder told me I can expect heat around 6 months! I really hope she's wrong and it comes a later...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MaceeChocKisses said:


> I'm happy you decided to spay... It truly encourages me to do the right thing... I've only had one pet fixed before and it was a male... So all my females I've ever had wasn't fixed! I'm afraid because Cocoa is a small girl and this surgery just kinda scares me! But I don't really want to deal with heat... And I truly want what's best for her! So with that being said I'm sure Timi will be fine!
> 
> Also my breeder told me I can expect heat around 6 months! I really hope she's wrong and it comes a later...



Six months would be awful early! I think 12-13 months is more typical, and Timi was on the late end at 15 1/2 months.
I am very happy that she had at least one heat though!


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## MaceeChocKisses (May 19, 2015)

So that means she could possibly have a couple cycles before spay... Is that ok as far as health issues... The Vet wanted to initially do it before her first heat... ((Thoughts))


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Yes it is fine, just make sure the spay is done about 14 weeks after her cycle. Misha was done at 14 months.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Yes it is fine, just make sure the spay is done about 14 weeks after her cycle. Misha was done at 14 months.



Not only fine, but preferable!
N2 - 14 weeks from the start or from the end of the cycle?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

9/23/15


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, and don't be so sure about that 14 weeks - Timi's cousin, who was going to be spayed at the same time just came into heat a second time, 12 weeks after the first one!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Geez, I am starting to wish that Timi gets her heat early and it has to be delayed. My little girl has had no more than a momentary ouchie in her entire life, I just can't bare the thought of her being in pain for a week....


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## beanz (Jul 14, 2014)

TP, will Timi be having a laparoscopic spay done? I've been doing lots of reading about spays and have decided to get it done before my 18 month old gets her second heat. Also chosen to do a laparoscopic procedure for the estimated 65% pain reduction, smaller incision sizes and lack of stitches. I don't think I could keep her quiet for two weeks while a traditional spay heals. I feel like she would surely overexert herself and rip a stitch.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

beanz said:


> TP, will Timi be having a laparoscopic spay done? I've been doing lots of reading about spays and have decided to get it done before my 18 month old gets her second heat. Also chosen to do a laparoscopic procedure for the estimated 65% pain reduction, smaller incision sizes and lack of stitches. I don't think I could keep her quiet for two weeks while a traditional spay heals. I feel like she would surely overexert herself and rip a stitch.



I don't know, I am getting the most renowned Veterinary Surgeon in NYC - she is the one that all of the other Vet's in the city call in to do surgeries that they cannot handle, so I am comfortable with whatever she feels is best. She has previously done 3 spays and two major surgeries for my girls, and They had no post-op complications. And you know I saying to my breeder that I am worried that I won't be able to keep Timi still, and she said not to worry, she thinks that Timi will know exactly what she is or isn't capable of doing.

Besides, a friend of mine in another city had it done on her Toy a month ago and there was a tremendous amount of edema, possible infection, the dog was in severe pain for two weeks, and to this day, still yelps if she is picked up wrong. Sometimes tried and true is better.


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## beanz (Jul 14, 2014)

Just thought I'd ask. Of course you should do whatever it is you feel is best.

For me a bloodless procedure with a prognosis for significantly reduced pain and fast recovery is the way to go. Also, because the vet will be able to visualise the organs with the camera he said he would have a good look at the uterus before deciding whether or not removal is necessary (lap spays typically only remove the ovaries) since my dog has had one heat cycle.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

beanz said:


> Just thought I'd ask. Of course you should do whatever it is you feel is best.
> 
> 
> 
> For me a bloodless procedure with a prognosis for significantly reduced pain and fast recovery is the way to go. Also, because the vet will be able to visualise the organs with the camera he said he would have a good look at the uterus before deciding whether or not removal is necessary (lap spays typically only remove the ovaries) since my dog has had one heat cycle.



It sounds like your Vet is comfortable with the procedure so it should be fine.
Is there any benefit to leaving the uterus in? Unless there is a benefit to leaving it, I would rather have it out, because if it isn't there, then it can't have a future infection or tumor...


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## beanz (Jul 14, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Unless there is a benefit to leaving it, I would rather have it out, because if it isn't there, then it can't have a future infection or tumor...


Interesting that you should note it this way because the vet put it the opposite way - leave it unless it needs to be taken out. He said that unless it is abnormal there is no reason to remove the uterus. 

Pyometra is driven by progesterone and requires the presence of the ovaries. He said that in traditional spays the uterus isn't fully removed - the uterine stump is left behind where it connects to the cervix. But without the ovaries the cervix shouldn't open up and have the opportunity to introduce bacteria. He's European and they have been doing ovariectomies for ages now.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

beanz said:


> Interesting that you should note it this way because the vet put it the opposite way - leave it unless it needs to be taken out. He said that unless it is abnormal there is no reason to remove the uterus.
> 
> 
> 
> Pyometra is driven by progesterone and requires the presence of the ovaries. He said that in traditional spays the uterus isn't fully removed - the uterine stump is left behind where it connects to the cervix. But without the ovaries the cervix shouldn't open up and have the opportunity to introduce bacteria. He's European and they have been doing ovariectomies for ages now.



Hum, that is interesting. I have a friend who is planning an ovariectomy for her poodle with the same surgeon, so I know that she would do it (but don't know if it would be open or lap)
But Then my second poodle was unspayed, though now that I know what a heat is, I realize that there was something wrong with her, and she never did go into heat). But anyhow at age ten she got a huge reproductive tract tumor and it was a major surgery to remove it (same surgeon). It was benign, but it was attached to or compressing every organ, and she was hospitalized for ten days post-op. And while it is true she did have ovaries, they probably were not working, so it still makes me think that we should just get rid of the uterus and not have to worry about such a thing happening later on.
Geez, it is so tough, all I want is to do the very BEST thing for Timi, why can't what is best be clear!


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## Spoos+Ponies (Mar 26, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Geez, I am starting to wish that Timi gets her heat early and it has to be delayed. My little girl has had no more than a momentary ouchie in her entire life, I just can't bare the thought of her being in pain for a week....


I got a referral from the vascular surgeon who I plan to have do Magda's ovary sparing spay, and she went into heat 2 months early. I was relieved to put off doing this to my baby. Just finishing up the heat and then waiting a couple of more months. Phew - sweet respite : )


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## BeBe67 (May 13, 2015)

Interesting thread. I feel your pain Toy Poodles. I am having to make some similar decisions about spaying Luna. The vet says go ahead and spay before 1st cycle. I asked her about the issues with her leg. Her leg is perfectly normal now. But I still think I should wait until after
her 1st heat. But I don't want to go thru all of the issues that a heat cycle bring on  
I have never had an intact female until Brandie. She is 9 and we never had her spayed. (Never bred her) But I have always spayed my dogs. Only 1 had an issue after surgery. Got an infection but a round of antibiotics took care of it. (Never used that vet for surgery again though) It was one of our Dobermans.
Thankfully the poodles have always been fine with the surgery and didn't even seem to be very sore, and healed quickly and with a great outcome! 

Good luck to Timi on her upcoming surgery!

Bebe


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BeBe67 said:


> Interesting thread. I feel your pain Toy Poodles. I am having to make some similar decisions about spaying Luna. The vet says go ahead and spay before 1st cycle. I asked her about the issues with her leg. Her leg is perfectly normal now. But I still think I should wait until after
> 
> her 1st heat. But I don't want to go thru all of the issues that a heat cycle bring on
> 
> ...



Oh I am VERY glad that Timi had one heat, the development in her body was remarkable, and 
I will never spay before the first heat again. And you know what, it really wasn't as big a deal as I thought it would be. She didn't even have to wear panties during the day, for about 12 days she slept in them, and there were a couple of dime sized spots on the pad in the morning. The biggest change that I don't want to go through again was that she did not want to play with strange dogs at the park for over 3 months. But at home, her behavior was unchanged with us and she remained playful with Teaka. 
I would strongly encourage you to wait, especially if you are concerned about an orthopedic issue - you really want the hormones to make sure that all of the growth plates close at the proper time!

I think that I will be happy once Timi makes it through and is healed, it is just getting through the time between now and then that is rough!


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## BeBe67 (May 13, 2015)

That's what I am thinking too. Don't know what time frame to expect it to happen. My first poodle had her first heat at 12 months. Cant remember about Brandie, I had two kids by that time and cant remember some things as clearly now (LOL) But I do think I will wait until after her first cycle. The reason we never have had Brandie spayed is because except for swelling you can not tell she is in heat. She doesn't leave messy spots. Her cycle is so light that she doesn't even have to wear diapers. So since it wasn't a big issue and after she had a couple of seizures I was afraid to put her to sleep to have the surgery. Although I think the seizure activity was caused from a flea pill. Took her off that flea pill and she has NOT had anymore!!! Thank goodness. Interesting fact, our groomers dog did the same thing from taking the flea pill.

I am glad I found this forum or I would not have know about delaying the spay to allow growth plates to close! Thanks Poodle Forum!!! You Rock!!!


bebe


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BeBe67 said:


> That's what I am thinking too. Don't know what time frame to expect it to happen. My first poodle had her first heat at 12 months. Cant remember about Brandie, I had two kids by that time and cant remember some things as clearly now (LOL) But I do think I will wait until after her first cycle. The reason we never have had Brandie spayed is because except for swelling you can not tell she is in heat. She doesn't leave messy spots. Her cycle is so light that she doesn't even have to wear diapers. So since it wasn't a big issue and after she had a couple of seizures I was afraid to put her to sleep to have the surgery. Although I think the seizure activity was caused from a flea pill. Took her off that flea pill and she has NOT had anymore!!! Thank goodness. Interesting fact, our groomers dog did the same thing from taking the flea pill.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well they are all different, but Timi was a late bloomer - came in at 15.5 months, so she will be over 19 months when she is spayed.
I can certainly understand why you skipped the spay and anesthesia for Brandie. My second girl Tadia was not spayed, and now that I know what a heat is actually like, I now realize that she never came in - not only no bleeding, but no swelling, no nipples, just flat little freckles like my spayed before the first heat girls. Strange! I guess dogs can have infertility just like people.
Glad that you learned up the delaying heat here - from reading this forum sometimes 
I think that I am mire up to date on some things than my vets are!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well they are all different, but Timi was a late bloomer - came in at 15.5 months, so she will be over 19 months when she is spayed.
> I can certainly understand why you skipped the spay and anesthesia for Brandie. My second girl Tadia was not spayed, and now that I know what a heat is actually like, I now realize that she never came in - not only no bleeding, but no swelling, no nipples, just flat little freckles like my spayed before the first heat girls. Strange! I guess dogs can have infertility just like people.
> Glad that you learned up the delaying heat here - from reading this forum sometimes
> I think that I am mire up to date on some things than my vets are!



Oh sorry, I was typing fast and did not catch some of the crazy word changes that Siri slipped in on me!


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## BeBe67 (May 13, 2015)

Good luck to your beautiful Timi and keep us updated on her surgery !

She is an amazingly beautiful poodle! Love those black poodles 

bebe


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

BeBe67 said:


> Good luck to your beautiful Timi and keep us updated on her surgery !
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you, I will be so glad when it is over. I try not to think about it too much, but it is difficult. My poor girl has no idea what is coming :-(


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Thank you, I will be so glad when it is over. I try not to think about it too much, but it is difficult. My poor girl has no idea what is coming :-(


I know what you mean. My boy just got neutered + dental and I was so worried, I had trouvle sleeping last night (after he came back from the vet). We worry so much but they're fine, and it's what's best for them.


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