# Views on Sedation



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

How does he react when you try to clipper his face? You said he tries to bite the clipper. I find sedation is the absolute last resort, and if the dog is so worked up he is aggressively trying to bite ME. I've groomed a rescue poodle who tried to bite the clipper. I put a muzzle on him and he was better. Some dogs calm down with the muzzle. I was able to do a proper face shave on him. He realized that the clipper wouldn't hurt him and I was able to take it off (after I shaved the sides of his head and the top part of his muzzle), and shave around his lips. 

I groomed a client dog who trashed around violently when I tried to clipper her face. I had to groom her five times to figure out how to handle her. The more I tried to hold her face, the more she fought. She calmed down when I would grip her scruff very hard. I was not hurting her, but I held her scruff so hard till my hand cramped! She was so calm when I did this. She let me shave her face normally. Before I had to use little blunt tip scissors to mimic a face shave. I almost gave up on her and was thinking about telling the owner to stop with the face shaves. 

Some dogs may just hate the clippers - you can try using small blunt tip scissors to cut some of the hair off. I've found most dogs will accept this. It is hard to try using positive reinforcement methods when trying to do a face shave on an anxious dog. You have to award them at the right time, but usually their stress is through the roof that you will be awarding their fear behavior.

My views on grooming are - if the dog hates an aspect of the groom that is pure vanity, then you must do what is best for the dog (which may be to give up feet shaving or face shaving) - if the part of grooming (ear cleaning, nail clipping) is for hygienic and health reasons, then the dog has no choice but to accept that part of the grooming with training or, last resort, with sedation.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Maybe a nice dose of Rescue Remedy wld help. 
Original Bach Rescue Remedy: Rescue Sleep, Rescue Cream, Rescue Pastilles


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

How about a few drops of Rescue Remedy in his water? It won't sedate him but it does relax him a bit, and it works for dogs when they are panicked with thunderstorms, or going to the vet, etc. Rescue Remedy is safe (just a couple of drops either in water or directly on their tongue) and it also takes the edge off for people. Why RESCUE Remedy® Pet? - Nelsons USA


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

TBH, I would not use sedation in this case. Sedation should, IMO, be saved for red zone aggressive dogs or dog's who struggle and thrash so much they are endangering themselves. (most of the thrashers can be managed...I'm talking about the ones who are almost beyond help they are so bad. ) the thing about light sedation is that it makes the dog unpredictable...one moment they are fine, the next they freak and/or bite. With some dogs, it even makes them worse. That's why most groomers who aren't in a veterinary clinic refuse to groom sedated pets. Quite simply, it's dangerous without the help of a trained professional. I would just keep working with your boy and in the meantime, keep his face fluffier, or try to scissor it off if you feel up to that. I don't know what you are doing to desensitize him, but here's what I would do in his case.

#1: Have the clippers laying on the table, off. Set him on the table, reward for calm behavior ignore any signs of stress. Maybe have him do some tricks, such as sit, down, or "give me your paw". I've found that 9 times out of 10, Trev will relax when he's in tense situations if I do something with him that's familiar and takes his mind off of his insecurity. So we end up sitting, staying, and lying down in new places quite often! 

#2: Once he's completely comfortable with the clippers just being in his presence, proceed to picking them up in your hands, again rewarding him for calm behavior. If he's fine with you just holding them, start touching him with them, again still turned off. Start at the end of his body, such as a back leg or base of his tail. Reward for good behavior, ignore bad.

#3: Continue touching him with the clippers off, moving up his body as he gets comfortable with them. Save his face for last. Hold his face in your hands the way you would when clippering it, and just touch his muzzle with the clippers. Make it so fast he doesn't even notice...reward. Continue to progress him forward, touching him in different places and for longer lengths of time until he's fine with all of it.

#4: Repeat previous 3 steps, this time with the clippers turned on. Use the body of the clippers instead of the clippering end to touch him with..that way you won't cut any hair that you would prefer not to.  Mostly it's the vibrating\buzzing that dogs don't like, so the body will work just fine. I've used the body many times on puppies to show them that hey, this thing doesn't hurt, it just feels a bit funny...usually they calm right down once they realize it doesn't hurt at all. 

By now, you should be able to clipper his face. Go slow with him, don't push it. Try just clipping one part of his face at a time, then go back to it later. So maybe try clipping a cheek, then move to some brushing or something else he enjoys. Then come back and do another portion. It sounds like he just needs to understand that you aren't going to hurt him with it. Some dogs also don't like their face being held, but it doesn't sound like that's his problem. Good luck with him!!


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I hate sedation. Hate it. I had a terrifying experience when I was in my first year while training and it has affected my choices since (long story short, a dog was severely OD'd by his owner, who did not tell us she'd given him anything, and would have died had a skilled vet not been in the next room). Anyone who walks in my shop now and off-handedly says they gave their dog "a little something" gets sent home to sleep it off. 

I've gotten several dogs off sedation whose owners have been convinced, sometimes by impatient, incautious groomers who believe that's the only way to deal with difficult dogs. It isn't, and most of the time, it just causes more problems—a sedated dog is uncoordinated, and they can still fight. They can fall suddenly, bite and forget to let go, shake and hit their heads hard enough to cause injury... it's just not any easier in the long run, IMO.

It's all about finding what the dog's biggest motivation is, which others have suggested methods for. One Schnauzer I used to do was sedated simply to get her ears plucked, for which she'd put up a huge fight. She was very treat motivated and the solution was to have a helper give treats continuously until the task was done. It took over a year of this, every month, but we went from a huge biting, scratching, throwing herself around fight to her eating her treats and only occasionally fussing, to her standing nice and quietly for ear plucking until it was done, and she'd take her treats afterward. It took a long time and a lot of patience, but this dog would never have to be sedated again.

Another thing, since this is a rescue whose past you don't know, please have his teeth/mouth/ears thoroughly checked, or rechecked even if it's been done already (looking for serious underlying issues, broken/chipped teeth, bone damage, etc). Some dogs might hate clippers on a face because the vibration actually hurts if they have an underlying problem. Or yes, if he's had a horrible previous experience, it's really just going to take months to even years of short, positive sessions to pinpoint exactly what's so scary and work to get over it.

Now, do some extremely reactive dogs actually require sedation for grooming? Sure. But at that point, they're probably going to need more than just a little bit, they might need to be knocked all the way out. It stops being about pretty haircuts at this point. If a dog must be sedated to be groomed, then it's getting a very basic haircut with emphasis on just getting the hair short.

And I'm adamant about this, if a dog must be sedated, please go to a vet clinic groomer so there is a vet immediately available if anything bad should happen. Remember, it's a narcotic, a controlled substance for a reason. Any dog, at any time can have a bad reaction to sedatives. Some people might call me over-cautious, but have a dog collapse and stop breathing in your arms and see how you feel about it afterward.


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## Pudel-Fan (Nov 1, 2011)

Mom24doggies, has a good idea for training (desensatizing), why not add Kloliver's and liljaker's idea for Rescue remedy to that. I don't have my book at hand but you might also check out some of the T-Touch relaxation techniques and include those into your training routine. Sort of use all the "big guns" to help him find having his face touched at least acceptable if not pleasant. 

I would do all this many times in practice sessions before you even try to clip. Also, what clipper are you using? Something like the Wahl Brauvra is pretty quiet and has very little vibration and might be less scary than full sized clippers. 

My sympathys go out to you, I think it is much harder to retrain a dog who has had a bad experience than one who just has had no experience. Bless you for your patience and willingness to work on such a hard issue. You may have to settle for a blunt shear face clip for a few months while you work on this issue. Best of luck.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Pudel-Fan said:


> Mom24doggies, has a good idea for training (desensatizing), why not add Kloliver's and liljaker's idea for Rescue remedy to that. I don't have my book at hand but you might also check out some of the T-Touch relaxation techniques and include those into your training routine.


Oh durrrrrrr, yes, yes, yes, Pudel-Fan. the Tellington Touch works wonders. You can literally see the dog relax into your hands.
What is TTouch®? - Tellington TTouch Training™

youtube demo


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## afkar (Dec 9, 2011)

The only sedation I have ever used beyond Rescue Remedy on a very matted dog was some Melatonin but that is the body's natural sleep hormone. It doesn't sedate as such but did help with the relaxation enough to get a hand on hime to start getting scissors & then clippers on him.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Here is my question to the groomers: Do you clear that with the owner FIRST before you would do something like that? I am curious with the answer. If I was the owner and found out a groomer did that without asking me first, I don't think I'd return to that groomer or be too happy about it.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Stacy, my current groomer and the groomer who took care of Jake for 14 years, and her then-partner (Billy, who grooms Oprah's dogs) told me many years ago that they knew of groomers who did that kind of thing without asking the owners -- I could not believe it. They said they never had and never would -- but I was surprised that was even a discussion topic (this was maybe 10 years ago).


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

liljaker said:


> Here is my question to the groomers: Do you clear that with the owner FIRST before you would do something like that?


Hi liljaker, what do you mean by _that_? If you mean checking with you first before giving/doing anything to your dog, of course, they shd ask 1st.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

That's what I was asking -- because I have heard of groomers not asking, that's all. If I was a groomer, I would think that is a huge liability issue if something goes wrong. Luckily, my poodles have always enjoyed being groomed, especially Sunny who well, looks at Stacy like, "done already?" so not an issue. Curious that's all.

Thanks.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Patience and behavioral shaping is the key...if groomers can get a wildly reactive dog to learn to stand for ear plucking by just positive reinforcement from one grooming session to another, it has to be possible for owners to do it at home because it can be done more frequently and in a relaxed setting. Even if for only a few seconds every day, for a very high-value treat.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

I once had a great little horse who the unfortunate experience of a "new" farrier, who slammed him across the back with a huge tool for being skittish...needless to say, he was totally freaked about getting his hooves trimmed after that. I sedated him mildly for the next three trims (a month apart). It seemed to help him disassociate the farrier with his anxiety/anticipation about his previous experience. After that, he was perfect for all future trims. Now, horses are a bit different, as they are prey animals, and remember everything, but I can't see as it would hurt your dog, and may allow him to build some confidence in the process. Just my two cents.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Here is my question to the groomers: Do you clear that with the owner FIRST before you would do something like that? I am curious with the answer. If I was the owner and found out a groomer did that without asking me first, I don't think I'd return to that groomer or be too happy about it.


Are you talking about giving mild sedatives to the dog without checking with the owner first, or using a muzzle or other handling methods?

I don't even like giving treats to dogs I groom unless I speak with the owner about it. There are too many food allergies out there. I would never give any form of sedative where I would be changing the dog's behavior unless a vet was right there, and the dog got the okay from their vet. Some shops make you sign a form about muzzling. Other shops call you right away if it looks like they have to muzzle a dog - they call you to pick your dog up. I don't see how turning away a dog who needs a muzzle achieves anything. Groomers aren't dog trainers, sometimes we don't have time to work through deep-seeded issues, BUT I think all groomers should be patient and have a gentle approach to fearful dogs.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Really was just asking if anyone would sedate a dog brought in to be groomed without the owner knowing about it -- basically. And never would have thought about it if I had not had that conversation with Stacy, my groomer, many years ago -- I just never thought about it, since I only thought about my grooming experiences; but when someone started this thread, I was just curious, that's all.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I guess I was trained well by the first groomer of my first poodle, telling me start handling the paws, early (Charlie Brown was 10 weeks when I got him), so there was never a problem. Stacy said Jake never did like his feet done -- ever -- but said he was one of her best behaved dogs she groomed, and she said Sunny is a pro, so no complaints there. That helped I am sure. I do know, however, some people are totally clueless like the woman I posted about some time ago who had a 6 month old who had never been groomed...


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you. I guess I might just have to keep doing what I am doing and be patient (I am not really very good at patience, but Oliver will teach me, I guess). If I can teach him, I am sure he has a few things to teach me. 

Now, I did phone a local groomer, who is known to be about the most expensive in my area. Normally, I would not call her, as I know she costs. (But, I am hedging my bets on the fact that she is worth the price) Anyways, I talked with her because I know she is sort of the local "poodle specialist". She said she would gently give it a try and no promises, next week. She said that, perhaps, while I am working with him, he is also controlling me a little bit? She thinks I might be getting even further than I think, and he "might" let someone unknown do a little more?

I think she will let me stay and watch, and she has the best reputation in my area; so, I don't think she will push him beyond his comfort or that she would be mean, or anything. I will keep working daily.

He has already gotten to the point of letting me make a couple of clipper swipes, so he has a couple "lines" trimmed on him and looks silly; cause I rewarded and stopped and had a big praise party when he let me do that much. 

I do appreciate everyone's viewpoint on sedation. I hope this wasn't an uncomfortable subject for anybody.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be a groomer --- I get wiped out just giving Sunny a bath and trying to dry him off without blowing him off the table into the foyer (first time I tried my pro dryer LOL) --- anyway, I also take my hat off to all the people on PF who groom their own dogs and do a great job!! I'll stick to writing the check!


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I don't know about elsewhere, but in my state it is illegal for a groomer to administer any type of medication—ever. If a dog needs medication/sedation, it must be given by the owner of the dog before an appointment, or by a licensed vet. I wouldn't even give a dog rescue remedy myself, I'd make the owner do it.

Even so, I still ardently advocate sedation be only used for grooming under a vet's direct supervision. I wish the law was revised to include that, but pet safety regulations are always back-burnered until something bad happens.

The dog in question that caused me so much stress 14 years ago was given _ten times_ the proper dose for a dog his size by his idiot of an owner, and it was a type of sedative that should _never_ be used for grooming as it alters a dog's ability to regulate its body temperature—obviously a huge problem when washing and drying (he collapsed while being dried with no heat). I've long since forgotten what kind it was, but I believe it was a sedative she'd been prescribed for his thunderstorm anxiety. And after the vet brought him back literally from being dead and she came back (hours later, you'd think being told her dog was involved in an emergency and was at the vet would be cause for a rush), she had the gall to say, "Oh! Well, he's fine now! Can't you finish his haircut?" I would have backhanded her, had I been close enough, but I just walked into the back while my boss explained to this moron that her dog just survived a freaking miracle and she should be grateful she could take him home to recover. It only shows me that owners cannot be allowed to judge for themselves whether a dog needs to be sedated or not. For all I know this idiot was using her dog's meds herself. Sadly, a lot of pet owners are not nearly as thoughtful and educated as people on this forum.

Dogs can die from sedatives. _People_ die from using them improperly on a regular basis. I just wish people would use their brains and connect these things together.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> Groomers aren't dog trainers, sometimes we don't have time to work through deep-seeded issues, BUT I think all groomers should be patient and have a gentle approach to fearful dogs.


Yes, I agree. It is up to the owner to develop a relationship with the groomer & discuss any issues & the ameliorating steps. It is up to the owner to train the dog & the groomer to support said training


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

*Kloliver*;: you summed that up so nicely!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

*Ladywolfe*:
I'm not a groomer--just a home groomer--but I read your post and shook my head (knowingly). I had the same problem with my rescue stud dog, Merlin! He thrashed, a wild look in his eyes as he tried to back off the table. 

Here's what worked for me. I didn't try to groom him for couple of weeks or so but instead just brushed him out daily and focused on our other training. Then, I bought a cordless/quiet clipper, the Wahl Moser Arco SE. 

Guess what happened when I _finally_ pulled out those clippers to groom him? He struggled a few times but he allowed me to clip his face. I gave him lots of breaks and lots of chicken. 

So, in short, Merlin probably didn't trust me all that much when he first joined the pack and understandably so. His entire life changed overnight. He went from a stud dog essentially living in an outdoor kennel to a pampered house poodle. 

He's now my easiest groom and in fact, he loves the attention. So my advice is to give Oliver some time and work on bonding with him. Brush him out daily and introduce him to the clippers in a non-threatening way (set them on the grooming table while you brush him). Run a brush over his face (a soft one) to get him used to the feel, etc. 

The natural calming agents are great too--I used Rescue Remedy and another one on my senior rescue MPOO who was scared of clippers too with good results. 

Here's my thread and a pic of Merlin with his face shaved: 
http://www.poodleforum.com/9-poodle-grooming/14435-when-clippers-instrument-doom.html


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

Ladywolfe said:


> *Kloliver*;: you summed that up so nicely!


Too funny (& ironic as we're debating sedation) 

I've had a stubborn migraine for the past coupla & a few hrs ago I went cocktail on it's a$$. 1 tylenol + 1 benadryl + 1 OTC muscle relaxer (What?!? I'm Canadian.) 2 hrs ago, I was wondering if my fingertips wld go completely numb instead of just partially & wondered if I was getting rambly in other posts. Did I just overshare? :devil:


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Really was just asking if anyone would sedate a dog brought in to be groomed without the owner knowing about it -- basically. And never would have thought about it if I had not had that conversation with Stacy, my groomer, many years ago -- I just never thought about it, since I only thought about my grooming experiences; but when someone started this thread, I was just curious, that's all.


 As far as I know, the owner is always consulted first. After all, they are the ones who have to pay for everything, and sedation isn't necessarily cheap.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

liljaker said:


> Really was just asking if anyone would sedate a dog brought in to be groomed without the owner knowing about it -- basically. And never would have thought about it if I had not had that conversation with Stacy, my groomer, many years ago -- I just never thought about it, since I only thought about my grooming experiences; but when someone started this thread, I was just curious, that's all.


I hope groomers wouldn't do anything without consulting the owner first! I always call even if I have to shave down or cut anything (like ears or tail). I'd be pissed if anyone gave my dog food he isn't supposed to have. Yeah, I'm THAT kind of owner! I admire you guys who bring your dogs to the groomers. I'd be so nervous and controlling with it. I'd probably hate me as a client lol. Leroy has never been groomed by anyone else but me. I wonder how he'd act. Probably like a huge butthead!


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Most groomers, I hope, wont use sedation without asking. Personally I would hate it if someone gave my dog a treat without checking with me first let alone sedation. Muzzling, and handling techniques are a diff story.. As a groomer you learn when and if to stop and send the pet home.. like was said we arent trainers. We simply dont have the time, and pet owners (your avg) wouldnt be willing to and some able to pay us for time to train their dog.. I feel the best trainer is the owner as the dog already has a bond with the dog and has the time to do so. 

I find there are at least 3 types of dogs.. Mind you this is under salon conditions with a set time to get the job done as safely as possible.. that does not mean the owner with time and patience cant persevere where a groomer cannot.. The ones you can nicely convince to what needs to be done and positive reinforcement works very well with these. The more spoiled/dominant dog that is going to fight you just because he doenst want it done.. These dogs need a gentle yet firmer hand.. Would benefit from owners working at home with them.. often they struggle at first but realize this person isnt a pushover and lets just get this over with so I can get home and tell those people what to do. These I wish I could take home and train them myself since they can be outstanding dogs to groom under the right leadership lol. No I dont mean you have to be abusive or anything to these guys! And the third the ones that are out for blood.. will stress so much to poo/ pee/ give themselves a bloody nose.. or just mess themselves up trying to fight you.. These cases are sent home and referred to a vet groomer where they can be safely groomed/shaved down.. also rec a trainer to work with them at home.

My coworker adopted a poo/bichon mix that is the number 2.. No one can groom her but me as I am the one she *respects*. Believe me others have tried.. she will bite them, and go into alligator rolls. When she brought the dog in and asked our male groomer to do the face they werent able to do so. We all have restraining devices too. I had them put her on my table.. a helper held her front legs so she would push my had off her face and altho she did fight I was able to do her face. Second time same thing. Third time altho she did struggle but I did not need a helper. I have done her face at least 4 more times since then and she stands like a statue. She mainly needs an ahah for her feet and legs from me. We tested it out with another groomer and she was very bad for him, leaving red marks. They put her on my table and she stood like a statue for her face. SHe did give me some hell for her feet and legs this time but prob cause she was already on a roll with the other groomer.. but did not leave red marks on me. We got thru it. My coworker keeps trying to talk me into taking her.. but I have limited room for more and am saving the spot for my next show dog.. otherwise I prob would take her as I know anyone else even her owner has a very hard time with her. Oh and I always praise and love on her when its over with.

In short there is hope, being the owner you have the time to work thru it. If possible with possitive reinforcement.. just takes time! You have recieved a lot of good advice.. chin up! You'll get thru it!


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## pigasus (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm going through the same thing with my rescue poodle. It can be incredibly frustrating and incredibly slow going. She's pretty good about her body now but her face? She's almost worse than when I first got her  So I definitely understand the temptation to sedate. But I figure that unless she's out 100% she'll still fight and could wind up getting hurt and even more traumatized. And if she's out 100% (even putting aside the dangers) what good is that going to? I'm thinking of hiring a trainer to help me since I feel like I'm just not making progress- and my stress is probably just doubling her stress. 

Sorry I can't be more help- but I totally sympathize!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I've never done a sedated groom before, but now I work at a vet clinic.. they schedule sedated grooms and I groom them on the operating table WITH a vet monitoring the dog constantly. It's not a pill, they full on gas them. I haven't done one yet, but I'm sure I'll have to, I'm nervous about it!

I'm not sure what to do in your case, I was nervous about how Cairo would act for grooming when I got him, but he just came being good. He used to screech for his feet, but I ignore it and keep doing it. He'll now do it for the first foot, but last time he was literally asleep for the back feet. I actually panicked and poked him thinking he had fainted or something, but sleepy eyes opened as if to say 'Why did you wake me?'


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