# Interesting article on genetic diversity and health testing



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I think it would very much depend upon the breed, and the lines.
I mean, my toy poodle breeder has virtually eliminated everything bad and enhanced everything desirable in the breed - you could take one of her dogs, say "this is a toy poodle, from now on we will only have clones of this dog", and everyone would live happily ever after. But there are other lines today, where doing that would be just like Wycliffe was for the the Spoos - locking in a genetic disaster, and we would be suffering with little blind dogs who needed double knee surgery and died of heart failure before they were 9 years old forever.
And there are other breeds where you might have 200 of them registered in the country - if you were going to have one test take half of them out of the breeding pool, what are you going to have left to work with? While there are typically just a few health tests for a breed, there are usually many dozens of conformation points that a breed needs to meet.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Getting most people to even consider the importance of researching health testing when buying a puppy is a struggle, especially when they can get instant gratification with a pet store or internet puppy. I also think conscientious puppy buyers will have a hard time understanding subtleties of breeding that are beyond the black and white nature of health testing. However, this article did point out that over reliance on health testing could backfire by limiting genetic diversity. It illustrates the importance of getting to know and trust a breeder, and feeling comfortable with their breeding practices.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Easy on the Wycliffe negativity. Jean Lyle is a Pioneer of the breed and was known to be a strong critic of her own breeding program and to cull from the line any known issues.

There may perhaps be an issue with the "Popular Sire Syndrome" or the "Wycliffe bottleneck", but that would be many other lines bred into the Wycliffe line.

Not well done to vilify the Wycliffe bloodline as unhealthy... (if I understood the comment correctly) as that was not the case.

If I mis-understood, my sincere apologies.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Bottlenecking is certainly an event that potentially severely limits the future of a wild species or a breed of dogs, but with new methods for evaluating genetic diversity that can be coupled with evaluations of hips and elbows, etc. I think there is much good breeders can do to improve a breed even with a dog that has fair hips but other attributes that are important.

The big bottom line as Carolinek pointed out is having puppy parents pay attention to what these issues mean, not just for the health of the breed they are interested in or just got, but for their future with that puppy and its health. Let's face it a lot of the bad practices are driven by the demand for filling that store window with cute, immediately available puppies about whom the buyers know very little.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

NOLA Standards said:


> Easy on the Wycliffe negativity. Jean Lyle is a Pioneer of the breed and was known to be a strong critic of her own breeding program and to cull from the line any known issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My apologies - I really don't know enough about Spoos to make a knowledgeable comment on them - I was really only parroting what I have heard others say. Thank you for calling me out on that - I should know better than to take "what people say on the Internet" as fact!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

My impression is that the Wycliffe bottleneck was a result of good intentions and what was truly believed to be best practice at the time... AND she had superior dogs- which is why they were in such demand. Since then, science has marched on, but 50 years ago, the genome hadn't even been mapped yet. 

However, I'm just a crazy pet owner who wants a well- bred poodle someday and likes to read about this stuff! That's why I thought this article was interesting, as I think science and technology will bring so many more options to the table in years to come. It's quite possible that the best practices of today could very well become the "Wycliffe" of tomorrow. That doesn't mean they weren't valuable today. They also contribute to the knowledge of tomorrow.

So... how does a breeder use current scientific findings (like health tests), but temper it with knowing the science isn't perfect? What judgments need to be made solely based on experience? 

That was what really spoke to me about this article, as I have met breeders (of dogs and other species) who seem to have an almost intuitive sense of how to manage their lines.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> My impression is that the Wycliffe bottleneck was a result of good intentions and what was truly believed to be best practice at the time... AND she had superior dogs- which is why they were in such demand. Since then, science has marched on, but 50 years ago, the genome hadn't even been mapped yet.
> 
> However, I'm just a crazy pet owner who wants a well- bred poodle someday and likes to read about this stuff! That's why I thought this article was interesting, as I think science and technology will bring so many more options to the table in years to come. It's quite possible that the best practices of today could very well become the "Wycliffe" of tomorrow. That doesn't mean they weren't valuable today. They also contribute to the knowledge of tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Don't you think that people at the top of most any field have some kind of innate talent, or ability to see what others cannot that separates them from the rest? I often marvel at how my breeder can be helpless in navigating a simple website, yet she has managed to master the thousands of genes that are at play in creating the perfect poodle in every respect!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I agree that the masters in any field develop a way of knowing that they can't explain- but is very real!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carolinek said:


> I agree that the masters in any field develop a way of knowing that they can't explain- but is very real!



I always drool with jealousy when I see it with grooming - I have been struggling for 15 years to be able to do a decent groom on my girls, and there is a youn woman near me who got a poodle from my breeder, first poodle, bought the equipment, and by her second groom had far surpassed my skills!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Carolinek said:


> So... how does a breeder use current scientific findings (like health tests), but temper it with knowing the science isn't perfect?


My guess is that some day there will be an app for that...


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Love it!, CB! hahaha

And, TP, I'm guilty as well of sometimes quoting what I believed was a solid quote, and it was fiction, no worries!

The breeders that are historically proven to be the great breeders... It's that they are always learning, I think. Not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater", trusting a great mentor and breeder who knows the lines and the animals, being involved in the breed and having an "eye" and true understanding of structure and movement. And constantly being their own toughest critic. 

Being honest about what was produced; and what you have produced and being true to what you are producing (as in being honest with the health and longevity of the line as well as true to the beauty in form and function of the animal).

I do truly believe if a breeder is not involved in the breed (and I mean involved in more than breeding their animals!!) that they do a disservice to the breed and their breeding program. Without true involvement with other quality breeders, feedback and first hand knowledge of what is being produced, how can "studying a pedigree" get them all that far? There is no real measuring stick for what needs improvement and what might possibly occur if you chose to go here vs there. Rescue and Breed Legislation and Health Research and other types of breed involvement are all also part of supporting and loving the bred in actions as opposed to just words and puppy $ale$.

Yes, I did say all that outloud :amen: (typed it for the world to read, anyway!)

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

CB- too funny! 
Tabatha- thank you for the breeder perspective. Very helpful for those of us contemplating a puppy in the future!


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