# The Labradoodle as a "new breed"?



## bluegirls (Aug 10, 2014)

Wow! So sad...


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Aargh!!!!!!!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Article states the usual bunk about miniature poodles being hyper. Our couch-potato mini boy sure didn't get that memo! Some minis are hyper; some aren't. Just like every other dog on the planet.

Beau's version of being "hyper":


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

all you need to do is point out that the "labradoodle" was first created and promoted by an australian named wally conron who has publicly stated he regrets what he did. here's an interview stanley coren did with him: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/canine-corner/201404/designer-dog-maker-regrets-his-creation

for those who don't know stanley coren, he is a psychologist who has long been fascinated by dogs, has written about them ("the intelligence of dogs," "how dogs think: understanding the canine mind") and is respected by behaviorists such as patricia mcconnell and marc bekoff.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

Well clearly Beau is completely out of control in that picture! ?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think a lot of the problems with labradoodles and other doodles are that the breeding stock from the parent breeds are not the best of those breeds, so while we all know that Beau, Chagall and Jaxon are perfect gentlemen (or working hard at it in the youngster Jaxon's case) the mpoos that go into a program to breed labradoodles probably are snipey and hyper. I'm sure the same is true on the other side of the fence and we would see golden forum and labrador forum threads with much the same discussion that we have when this topic comes up.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ericwd9 said:


> "The gold standard for labradoodles


LOL - About as reliable as somebody claiming a gold standard for mud.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I have no problem with someone trying to legitimize a new breed; just get some breed standards, do health testing, lobby the kennel clubs... One can't just announce they have a new breed and have it be so. There is a process.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Indiana you are right that that is what they need to do, but Frank is also right, so far that hasn't happened so there is no value in claims of "breed standards." Personally I think it would be sad to legitimize the designer dogs as breeds since there is so much wrong in so many of them right now. Breeders of recognized dogs seem to have a hard time fixing problems they have created, I have a hard time imagining that all the myriad byb of the designer dogs would do any better.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

I can see merit in trying to create a new breed but claiming it's established after just two decades? A breeding program might be, not a breed. It's not three weeks since I saw two imported Australian Labradoodles at the same place; one was like a Spoo with black Wheaten coat, the other like an overlong Cocker with genuine mutt mop coat.

(and fhs if you want a small spaniel added in the program, why the heck choose American Cocker, the only spaniel i know this far that has had its skull overbred?)


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## sweets (Jan 15, 2015)

That's great! You never know one day my poochon will become a recognized breed :aetsch:


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I don't think the doodle craze will ever die down. I cannot even mention that I have a standard poodle without someone bringing up doodles.

The other day at the grocery store I bought Naira this dog toy I liked.
Cashier: "Cute toy, what kind of dog do you have?"
Me: "I have a standard poodle."
Cashier: "Have you heard of labradoodles? They are so cute. It's a poodle mixed with a lab."
Me: " -_- "

Never, ever do I see poodles where I live. At the dog park I frequently see these two "Australian labradoodles" that Naira likes to play with, and this other doodle.

Before I clipped Naira, the other day I actually had to show someone a pic of her parents because people didn't believe she was a poodle.

I have just accepted that they are here to stay, they are marketed very well, and people eat them up like cake. I am someone that doesn't mind when my dog gets a little shaggy, and when Naira grows out and I get the "what a cute golden doodle!" comments again, I will use that as an opportunity to educate them about Standard Poodles.


Otherwise I'll go crazy.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I admit that I thought golden and labradoodles were bred from SPOO's not MPOO's. To Catherine's point that they are likely not very good examples of either breed, I would add that that makes the economics so much more attractive for greeders. Breed two $250 dogs and charge $2,800-$9,000 for their offspring. Skip the $8,000 (?) on health testing and spend a little or DIY for a flashy website. I don't think the greeders really want the breed recognized. It's the folks who spent the big bucks who do.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I think a lot of golden/labradoodles are bred from standards and not minis. 

They sell mini labradoodles and standard labradoodles. *barf*


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I agree they have become a craze because of very greedy people, and because of this there are some extremely hyper, poorly bred dogs out there. I've seen them.

On the other hand they can be lovely when bred responsibly. This too is what makes them popular, lovely family dogs with soft little muppet like coats. 
I've seen them too and have one myself, love her to pieces and wouldn't trade her for anything.
I must admit though, their fun little personalities come from the Poodle side....it's a shame more people don't realize this. They truly believe it's a "Doodle" trait. And having said this, my next dog will be a Poodle, that way I KNOW I'll get that great little personality again!

Do I think they should be a recognized breed? Absolutely not, there would be no control. There are enough breeds out there, why try and create more....it's just a recipe for disaster.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

One thing we should keep in mind: when the ALA says it has created a new breed, it means the dogs in its register (which are carefully governed), not any mutt of certain background.



peccan said:


> I can see merit in trying to create a new breed but claiming it's established after just two decades? A breeding program might be, not a breed. It's not three weeks since I saw two imported Australian Labradoodles at the same place; one was like a Spoo with black Wheaten coat, the other like an overlong Cocker with genuine mutt mop coat.
> 
> (and fhs if you want a small spaniel added in the program, why the heck choose American Cocker, the only spaniel i know this far that has had its skull overbred?)


I gotta correct myself after reading much of the ALA website (albeit an archived version of it). Here's their current site: Home It seems to be much of the same text, just laid out nicer.

Gotta give ALA some credit.

The thing with Cockers, I suppose why they introduced American was because it's so much more common in the US and possibly in Australia as well. That's the two closest places they would look for dogs for their program anyways.

The thing with establishing a type, they have a classification system that's frankly very detailed and thorough. There's a class for "origin cross" dogs (Labrador x Poodle and offspring of such crosses), a class for "foundation" dogs (dogs with all three required parent breeds in their pedigree AND the desired coat texture), and no dog automatically gets to the "purebred" class, since in addition to minimum three generations of foundation dogs they also need to pass a qualification evaluation where it's judged whether they have disqualifying faults and whether they are an acceptable representation of the breed they're creating.

They even keep track of breed back-crosses so a dog with 15/16ths Poodle in his pedigree is considered the same as a Poodle for the purpose of their program.

As for the breed standard, it's very refreshing to see it compared to many traditional breeds. The ALA people clearly want a pleasant, healthy dog with excellent temperament. All coat colours are accepted, any display of aggression or lameness is a disqualification, and so on.

I recommend their ethical code of conduct for having a clause that forbids members to advertise the breed as guaranteed to be hypoallergenic or non-shedding. One thing I find hard to swallow is the blatant advocating of very very early alteration, but the CoC recognise binding agreements as an alternative.

I don't think I caught a single instance of bad-mouthing any of the parent breeds.

All in all it seems these guys know what they're doing, are using their freedom the right way, and although overall I'm not happy to see willy-nilly doodling, I can't but welcome the ALA and their acknowledged associates.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

And THEN there's associations such as...


The ALCA
- which misspells Wheaten (OMG NO) on the front page no less
- having no standard for the dogs other than of lineage
- employing terribly jpeg-y Times New Roman- having diagrams (OMG NOOOO)
- using phrases such as "the real deal" and "true"
- and having closed their register from new infusions in 2011
- wait, having a standard for dogs hidden behind in a remote section
- _does not disallow_ advertising dogs as guaranteed hypoallergenic/non-shedding
- _does not recognize_ alternatives to juvenile alteration
- overuse of "quotes" (SAY IT ISN'T SO)
- implying any type of dog would be preferable for a family with severe allergies
- having a very similar standard to the ALA, with the notable exception of much stricter terms for acceptable colourations and leaving out any mention of disqualifying faults, even basic ones such as aggression or abnormal genitalia

and 

the ALAA
- which seems to have copied everything down to the word from the ALA (including the code of ethics and the breed standard) but does not mention co-operation anywhere and does not seem to have any classification system for dogs other than the less detailed scientific hybrid generation number scheme which is not used with dog register numbers AFAICS.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

How 'bout one of each?


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

There is an "Australian labradoodle" in Raven's agility class and the woman was very proudly proclaiming to all what he was and why he was special the first night of class. He looks like a reddish long haired mutt to me, cute, but still a mutt. No idea why so many people fall for the hype. I like the previous comment of just having having one of each!!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I think a lot of the problems with labradoodles and other doodles are that the breeding stock from the parent breeds are not the best of those breeds, so while we all know that Beau, Chagall and Jaxon are perfect gentlemen (or working hard at it in the youngster Jaxon's case) the mpoos that go into a program to breed labradoodles probably are snipey and hyper. I'm sure the same is true on the other side of the fence and we would see golden forum and labrador forum threads with much the same discussion that we have when this topic comes up.



Exactly - they are crossing two puppymill or byb dogs, very likely with no health testing, which is probably why the offspring is such a disaster. And it is an unsolvable problem, because what reputable breeder of quality poodles or labs would knowing put them in a doodle breeding program?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I do really wonder how Labrador and Golden forums/owners feel about this. Does anyone here have any connections with forums for those breeds and is there ever any discussion like ours?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Actually there's a whole lot of other dog forums waaaaaay down at the bottom of any PF page. Like ours, they're all public. Even a Labradoodle forum. lol


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## service_spoo (Mar 14, 2015)

I just started puppy class with Penny, and literally half of the puppies are doodles. Goldens, labs, and one wheaten cross. Penny got to be the demo pup the first day and behaved so well, just like she does at home. Sat politely, did all the commands the trainer taught her, and when she wasn't showing off, sat quietly on her rug and chewed on a chew toy. She really showed off how intelligent and amazing a poodle can be! After class, some of the doodle owners came up to me and were shocked that she was only 12 weeks old. It seemed to be a big surprise to them that my poodle wasn't absolutely crazy and bouncing off the walls like their puppies! I got the impression from some of them that they were really proud that they had a designer "breed", but I'll take my purebred poodle any day of the week


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

At 19 weeks Dakota has the energy level and jumping ability of a baby goat. He gets so excited that it is hard for him to stay still, especially when greeting new people. Other than his truly beautiful form and basic sweetest, I do not think he would counter the bad rep of a crazy bouncy poodle. We are working on the settle command now.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> At 19 weeks Dakota has the energy level and jumping ability of a baby goat. He gets so excited that it is hard for him to stay still, especially when greeting new people. Other than his truly beautiful form and basic sweetest, I do not think he would counter the bad rep of a crazy bouncy poodle. We are working on the settle command now.



It gets lots better in a few months, I promise!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> It gets lots better in a few months, I promise!


I am sure it will get better but think it might take till the end of the year. His hormones are due to kick in soon. So might get worse before it gets better.

One really good thing. He is not too verbal. So he is not a yappy little dog. I don't know if that will change.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

nifty said:


> I do really wonder how Labrador and Golden forums/owners feel about this. Does anyone here have any connections with forums for those breeds and is there ever any discussion like ours?



They feel similarly, but I think poodle people feel more strongly because whenever there is a problem with a doodle it's always, "Is this because of the poodle in him?" And labs and Goldens are America's most loved dogs, we are the ones that have to "prove" our breed. 

I am a member of general dog forums and they hate the doodle craze as well. Doodles are very cute, but their marketing scheme relies on ignorance.

Naira is now up to 4 people who have asked her if she is spayed and said we could make a lot of money making doodles with her. Sad.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

*The Labradoodle as a &quot;new breed&quot;?*



MiniPoo said:


> At 19 weeks Dakota has the energy level and jumping ability of a baby goat. He gets so excited that it is hard for him to stay still, especially when greeting new people. Other than his truly beautiful form and basic sweetest, I do not think he would counter the bad rep of a crazy bouncy poodle. We are working on the settle command now.






That's how 19 weeks old are regardless of breed IMO. Poodles are high energy. Only 1 out of 3 of my poodles would I have really considered high energy (the toy). If I were you, I would stop letting him practice the behavior. So if someone wants to greet him, they absolutely cannot touch him unless he's sitting. If he's not sitting, he doesn't get to meet that person. Every time. 

If you have company over and he's jumping over everyone, try to get him to offer a different behavior. If he's too overstimulated, he goes behind the baby gate. No matter what, never let him reward himself for jumping. Or he will keep doing it. 

Naira is 29 weeks old. I would say when she meets people about 75% of the time now she sits to be petted. And if she jumps, it's just one jump and a correction (usually ah ah) and then she sits. What helps is working on it when they are super, super tired. She's really friendly and for a couple months in between there she would pull like a psycho if she wanted to meet someone. 

I demanded that she sit before being petted or the pet wasn't going to happen. About 95% of the time we walk around a college campus and she has gotten so much better at not pulling for people and walking nicely on lead. Your pup is still so young, having it together at 19 weeks would be a hard feat. 

Just be glad your pup is a mini...I was walking Naira and she noticed a smell that she liked and randomly jumped in the air and tried to head for it. I swear she almost pulled my arm out of its socket and she's only 40 lbs now...I'm sure if she were 60 lbs I'd be getting surgery right now lol


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> I am sure it will get better but think it might take till the end of the year. His hormones are due to kick in soon. So might get worse before it gets better.
> 
> One really good thing. He is not too verbal. So he is not a yappy little dog. I don't know if that will change.



I think that it does not change - at least it did not with Timi, she has never been a yapper, and only barks a little when she is playing. Teaka on the other hand, yapper from day one, and nothing I ever did changed it. Fortunately she is low volume and high pitched, so although annoying close-up, does not reach the neighbors.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

All of my girls but Tangee have been super high energy, but they all found their "off switch" between 10-14 months old.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

service_spoo said:


> (...) After class, some of the doodle owners came up to me and were shocked that she was only 12 weeks old. It seemed to be a big surprise to them that my poodle wasn't absolutely crazy and bouncing off the walls like their puppies! (...)


I suspect people put way more weight on a puppy's breed. AND...



Naira said:


> (...) And labs and Goldens are America's most loved dogs, we are the ones that have to "prove" our breed.


No one ends up with a doodle because they love Poodles but need or want something that it can't offer as a breed. Smaller doodles seem to end up to homes as impulse buys or as part of the SWAF phenomenon, but Labradoodles and Goldendoodles seem to be chosen overwhelmingly most often because the person wanted a Lab or a Golden, just non-shedding and/or less allergenic.

And when they get that doodle pup, they think of it as exactly that, a Lab or Golden with a different coat, even though the animal individually was higher energy, more athletic, and had more of that cutting Poodle cleverness.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I am a person that got a Doodle because I love the Poodle breed, I just really wanted a more relaxed shaggy coat. I have had a Golden Retriever and loved her, however I wanted a dog with slightly more pizazz this time and knew I couldn't go wrong by getting a dog with this mix of breeds.
However I am a minority. 
I do not think that most people who purchase Doodles get them because of a love for the Lab or Golden Retrriever, most of the people that I know who have purchased Doodles are actually first time dog owners. 
I think it is the cuteness factor that draws people to them, they look like real life teddy bears (certainly as puppies). They see the Doodles as it's own breed.....they don't realize that the fun and silly personality actually comes from the Poodle side, they think it's a "Doodle thing".
Unfortunately the Poodle breed has a bad rap, mostly because of the extreme hairstyles that some of their owners bestow them with. I'm not trying to offend anyone here but when most people hear "Poodle" they think of a brainless dog with a fru fru hair cut. 
i really wish that the Poodle breed could somehow be promoted for the highly intelligent, fun loving and athletic dogs that they are!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Brainless? That is the one thing that I have never heard anyone call a poodle!
Fancy or even snooty yes, but everyone seems to know that poodles are one from the top on the dog IQ scale.
In fact years ago when the dog gym we went to did Iq testing, my poodle was first among hundreds of dogs tested that day.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Tiny Poodles...... I know they are anything but brainless, believe me. My point is that many people don't know that they are the second most intelligent breed, they don't look beyond the "hairspray" look.
I work in the medical field and often end up discussing dogs with patients, when I mention that my favorite breed is the Poodle they often get this doubting look on their faces. It's frustrating.
Last week a lady was telling me that her "Double Doodle" was so good at agility. I told her that my Millie was very athletic too....she then said that it must be a Doodle trait. I said "no, it's from the Poodle side". She looked very surprised.
Sigh....


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Here's what I'm trying to say.......in a nutshell.

Doodles are popular because they look like living Teddy Bears.

"Most" people are totally unaware of the Poodle breeds' wonderful qualities.


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

I have been following this thread for quite a while and have been trying to refrain from sharing because I'm definitely the minority. 

My parents own a golden retriever/poodle mix. I helped them research and tried to talk them into a spoo, but they live in a very rural area where owning a poodle would be considered snooty, and my parents believe poodles to be very "snooty" dogs. I had met several golden/poodle mixes while working with a dog training program and for some reason, I had the exact opposite impression that many of you have had. 

These mixes were goofy and playful with the adoration of a golden but were still independent enough to not be obnoxious and intelligent enough to be high-functioning members of the family. For the most part, they were all very easy to train and eager to please. They did have very high energy, but nothing that a golden or poodle couldn't rival. 

Back to my parents' dog: she has been absolutely 100% perfect for them. They got her at 8 weeks from a family after meeting their dogs and seeing where the puppies were raised. She is about a year old now. She has never had an accident in the house. She has never chewed anything she wasn't supposed to. She was crate-trained from day one. Loose-leash walking has never been an issue and her recall is pretty good. She loves other dogs, but is never rough or aggressive in her play. Her biggest issue is that she likes to jump and she sometimes excitement-pees. 

I don't agree with the breeding of poodle mixes, but flaming my opinion at people who like them will definitely not change minds; in fact, it reinforces the idea that poodles are snooty and difficult to deal with. 

Yes, I realize my opinion is unpopular and I have been reading this (and many other angry doodle posts), so I know why you would be so passionately vehement about them. But my my parents' poodle mix has made their lives infinitely better and I know other people would say the same about their mixes.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Kmart..... Thanks for your input. My doodle sounds exactly like your parent's doodle, she has been such an easy dog since day one. Easy as pie to housebreak, energetic and fun but not hyper, loves other dogs, doesn't chase my cats, not destructive as a puppy...I could go on and on. I love her.
I know many doodle owners and they feel the same way about their dogs. 
There ARE good respectful breeders out there that produce awesome dogs.

I know this is a Poodle forum but sometimes it's just hard to see this mixed breed bashed so often. I just feel I have to defend 'em now and then! :act-up:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

don't know about other boards, but i don't think most folks here really despise doodles. a dog is a dog and many growing up had mutts as part of the family; people start out loving a dog and move from there to wanting something more specific in a dog. i think the objections to doodles at pf mostly come with knowledge about the dangers of indiscriminate breeding. it's very hard to trust a breeder of doodles simply because most of us know what they are doing is not what someone dedicated to bettering a breed would do. that's why they're called greeders. even in the "complaints" about doodles in this thread, i see very little denigration of the dogs themselves. it's mostly about the owners they've met and their attitudes about owning a "designer" dog - most of which, in fact, do reflect a kind of snobbery that is actually worse than anything i've seen here from poodle owners.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

*The Labradoodle as a &quot;new breed&quot;?*

I don't think anyone could walk up to a doodle and hate it. I saw a doodle in the car (75% mix so looked very spooish) while I was taking Naira somewhere, asked the owner if I could meet it and got down on my knees playing with it when he brought it out of the car. 

Naira has many poodle mix friends at the park that I've told their owners I would take home. I think most of us hate that they are largely bred for money (just like most dogs these days are). And that their marketing heavily relies on false claims and ignorance. 

"100% pure bred English golden doodles selectively bred for their teddy bear heads. Hypoallergenic and non shedding". So many misleading statements in that title. 

Most of dislike how breeders like Arreau spend tens of thousands of dollars showing and proving their dogs, importing dogs in for genetic variation and produce dogs that improve the breed....but people who let their pet golden and pet poodle mate sell their dog for the same price or more. 

It's the greed and misconceptions that we dislike. There is no standard "doodle" personality...or "doodle" look. Most of us have been on the receiving end of negative comments concerning poodles at some point in our lives and its natural to be a little defensive. Especially when it's coming from someone who has a dog that's mostly a poodle.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Naira said:


> I don't think anyone could walk up to a doodle and hate it.


Ya... I have. Or, met one I didn't even want to touch. Great Poodle look but with long, flat Golden hair. It was just. plain. weird! Blech! :afraid:


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

When I take Luce out I hear "Look!! A poodle!!" I have to admit I love hearing that!!

At the dog park I have met several poodles - all 3 sizes and not one of them was hyper! Where did that come from?? I have never heard poodles being hyper. When I was a kid we had 3 poodles over a 25 year time span and all 3 had great temperaments. There were poodles in our neighborhood and all of them were great dogs.

Oodles of all kinds of poodle mixes at the dog park! AND even the other types of mutts have "cute" names as if that makes them a true breed. I think people want a cute breed name so it sounds like a real breed, but then follow up with "I rescued him/her".

Back to the park with Luce. There is a ball, it is thrown, dogs run after the ball, dogs leave the ball, Luce brings it back! The other people are surprised and I share that is what poodles do! Then proceed to educate them about the poodle breed being a retriever. 

Sorry about this post being all over the place. 

Luce is from an accidental breeding of 2 purebred non registered poodles. I am crazy about her. If there is a next dog in my future I will go to a real breeder with health testing done so I know what to expect. 

I just happened to get lucky with Luce. She is the perfect dog for me.


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

Luce said:


> When I take Luce out I hear "Look!! A poodle!!" I have to admit I love hearing that!!
> 
> At the dog park I have met several poodles - all 3 sizes and not one of them was hyper! Where did that come from?? I have never heard poodles being hyper. When I was a kid we had 3 poodles over a 25 year time span and all 3 had great temperaments. There were poodles in our neighborhood and all of them were great dogs.


I told myself I was going to just post my opinion but I can't just leave it alone. :ahhhhh:
I'm not sure who you're replying to, but poodles HAVE to have high energy to do their jobs. That being said, badly-bred mini poodles are some of the most neurotic, panicky dogs I have ever met. 
It comes down to genetics: if a mini poodle has aggressive, excitable parents, the puppies will be more likely to be aggressive and excitable. If a mix has receptive, trainable parents, the puppy will be more likely to be receptive. (Of course, this is all dealing in chance. No breed is perfect.)
(P.S.: this is what I mean by flaming opinions. Completely disregarding someone's experiences because you had different ones is rude and one of the reasons poodle owners are perceived as difficult by people I've talked to; completely convinced that their dog is superior before learning anything about another person's dog- mix or purebred. Ex. I've only known sweet, gentle pitties but I know there are aggressive, dangerous ones.) (Well-bred poodles are, in fact, superior IMO. But it doesn't win any friends to announce it to people unfamiliar with the breed.)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

seriously? :thumpdown:


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Good morning Pat. 7 pm here. Hope you have a good day.
Eric


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

kmart said:


> I told myself I was going to just post my opinion but I can't just leave it alone. :ahhhhh:
> I'm not sure who you're replying to, but poodles HAVE to have high energy to do their jobs. That being said, badly-bred mini poodles are some of the most neurotic, panicky dogs I have ever met.
> It comes down to genetics: if a mini poodle has aggressive, excitable parents, the puppies will be more likely to be aggressive and excitable. If a mix has receptive, trainable parents, the puppy will be more likely to be receptive. (Of course, this is all dealing in chance. No breed is perfect.)
> (P.S.: this is what I mean by flaming opinions. Completely disregarding someone's experiences because you had different ones is rude and one of the reasons poodle owners are perceived as difficult by people I've talked to; completely convinced that their dog is superior before learning anything about another person's dog- mix or purebred. Ex. I've only known sweet, gentle pitties but I know there are aggressive, dangerous ones.) (Well-bred poodles are, in fact, superior IMO. But it doesn't win any friends to announce it to people unfamiliar with the breed.)


I like your opinion but I don't agree with all of it. Guess that's normal.
Eric:angel2:


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

As a future poodle owner and a past labrador owner it just makes me sad because i dont think either breed needs improvement from the other. I mean the temperaments aren't that far apart prefering a labradors temperament but having to go with a poodle because of allergies is not like wanting Bichon ending up with a tibetan mastiff. They are both water retrievers at heart and both have tendencies towards high or low energy. I've met labs who were just perfect dogs from birth without any extensive training or socialisation then I've met some that were over the top hyper adolsecent behaviour until they were in their graves. 

Its also two breeds that have suffered from over and bad breeding in the last decades, they've been too popular. Thats why the poodle especially the small ones have such a bad reputation in my family all they've met are snappy little monsters. They were really surprised when I said that I wanted a tpoo because they know I want to get involved in sports or PAT, that I just dont want one for the sake of the company but also dogs are my main hobby. I was trying to explain thats exactly why I wanted a poodle. 

Anyway I met a doodle recently and started chatting with the owner who admited it was the wife who picked her. He said they wanted minimal shedding but not the mouthy-ness of a labrador?? and that she was from rescue (as in work rescuing) parents who were developed in australia to have the temperament of the lab but a coat that was good in the heat?

Which I don't quite understand, I don't think the poodle coat is any better at dealing with the heat than labradors as the double coat can actually act as cooler,trapping air. 

But I pointed out to him that he could have gotten a dog who sheds and mouths like a labrador. Besides mouthing is bad in nearly all puppies labradors can be a bit bad but this is a behavioural problem that is so easily managed. 

I worry that people like this are not prepared to get what they are getting. That they might get the traits from the mixed in breeds that they were trying to avoid. That poor dog was so heavily matted, I wouldnt have noticed if I were the regular lab owner and not had experience with hair dogs before. The hair was relatively short but in clumps close to the skin. 

Then later that day I saw a beautiful toy poodle riding with its owner on a mobility scooter. Its hair was visibly soft and bouncy and the fluffyness on the ears moved with the wind. 

I know there are lots of matted poodles out there but I wonder whether doodle owners are expecting poodle hair with lab maintenance? when you get a poodle nearly everyone knows they need hair maintenance its a trait that they are best known for. I can't help but wonder whether the poodle owners were much better prepared. 

And also with the working dogs wouldnt it just be easier to find laid back more stoic poodles and breed them on rather than trying to get the lab mental traits into a poodle coat?


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

Final point. One of the reasons why im so suspicious of the doodles is because when i was smaller we had a labrador - border collie cross. He was a free pup from an irresponsible/oops litter. I wanted a lab as my dad had great ones. I figured a half lab was good enough as we couldnt afford the purebreds. 

Boy was I wrong he was such a 50/50 mix physically and mentally. Imagine a hyper labrador with the mental insanity of the border collie. You cant get a mix when you arent prepared for all of the characteristics of both breeds.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm kind of scratching my head as to why such a big deal is made over Labradoodles. To me it's like any other designer breed. Most of us agree it's a shame to purposely breed more mixed breeds when there are millions languishing in shelters waiting for a home. Most of us agree that, for the most part, most of the dogs used to create them (other than the breeders who are truly trying to create a breed) are probably not the best of the best from what we consider reputable breeders. Most of us understand that until a breed phenotype is fixed, it's not going to be uniform. Okay, got it. That said, it's the same with any other mixed breed dog. The reasons a lot of people get these dogs are some of the traits which they don't understand won't apt to be uniform in all the dogs or even most necessarily. I happen to see quite a bit of variation in my own two Poodles. I think that's a good thing. Maybe Labradoodle breeders want the latest craze or some traits from both.

I have had both Labradors and Poodles and I love both breeds. One of my toy Poodles was hyper...very, very busy but has mellowed as he's aged a little and come out of puppy hood. My Lab, Bonnie and my Lab mix before her were fairly laid back, but playful and fun loving too, even as pups. Laid back but exuberant when called for. Retrievers are apt to be mouthy since their mouths are developed for gently carrying birds. Poodles and Labs are retrievers. From my experience with both breeds, the Poodles seem a bit more dependent, more demanding and more active, more hyper (meaning very busy, not neurotic or bouncing off the walls) than my Lab, Bonnie was. I find Labs to be smart enough, very willing and just a delightful breed. Some of this might be more individual than breed caused. I don't know. But that's my impression.

I've met a few Labradoodles. One, I met recently in the little town of LaConner when we went to view the tulips in Skagit county. This dog was calm, friendly and the owner said he didn't shed when I asked. He was good size, sturdy and well behaved. 

Another one I met quite a few years back was when I went with my daughter to some friend's from work to baby sit with her. Their doodle was young...under a year and hadn't been taught much. So, naturally, the dog was a bit wild and jumped up to greet. For the heck of it, I spent about 20 minutes with some treats up on a shelf and taught the dog to sit for a greeting. He was sweet, willing and smart. I didn't notice any shedding but I don't think I was looking for it. The dog, if it were to be treated nicely, I'm sure has probably turned into a fine family pet. 

Another one I know of is owned by a well respected animal behaviorist/dog trainer. This woman is phenomenal and I have the utmost respect for her. Her dog doesn't shed, is trained to the hilt...lovely disposition. She chose this dog for some reason and got a good one from Australia where apparently, the breeder is getting very close to homogeny in her dogs and does everything right...health testing, temperament testing etc. 

These dogs, although often not health tested when bred (when we're talking irresponsible breeders) are from a wider gene pool and although we're use to thinking uniformity is best, I'm beginning to get a little bit away from that kind of thinking because of the health problems in purebred dogs that are caused by the founder effect...the popular sire syndrome, which causes a real bottleneck. I fear for our purebred dogs. So, I'm somewhat on the fence or rather...looking for a happy medium between this extreme homogeny in dog breeds and breed fitness...or health. The two are an oxymoron.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Well I have met some calm Doodles and I have met some hyper Doodles.....I have met some calm Poodles and I have met some extremely hyper Poodles.
This can be said for every breed and every breed mix, so this debate has the potential to go on....and on.....and on..... :argh:


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

All the "breeds" were _designed_ at one time or another ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then all the field desired me to let my Laelaps go:
(The Grewnd that Procris unto me did give was named so)
Who strugling for to wrest his necke already from the band
Did stretch his collar. Scarsly had we let him off of hand
But that where Laelaps was become we could not understand.
The print remained of his feete upon the parched sand,
But he was clearly out of sight. Was never Dart I trow,
Nor Pellet from enforced Sling, nor shaft from Cretish bow,
That flew more swift than he did runne. There was not farre fro thence
About the middle of the Laund a rising ground, from whence
A man might overlooke the fieldes. I gate me to the knap
Of this same hill, and there beheld of this straunge course the hap
In which the beast seemes one while caught, and ere a man would think,
Doth quickly give the Grewnd the slip, and from his bighting shrink:
And like a wilie Foxe he runnes not forth directly out,
Nor makes a windlasse over all the champion fieldes about,
But doubling and indenting still avoydes his enmies lips,
And turning short, as swift about as spinning wheele he whips,
To disapoint the snatch. The Grewnd pursuing at an inch
Doth cote him, never losing ground: but likely still to pinch
Is at the sodaine shifted off. Continually he snatches
In vaine: for nothing in his mouth save only Aire he latches.
Then thought I for to trie what helpe my Dart at neede could show.
Which as I charged in my hand by levell aime to throw,
And set my fingars to the thongs, I lifting from bylow
Mine eies, did looke right forth againe, and straight amids the field
(A wondrous thing) two Images of Marble I beheld:
Of which ye would have thought the t'one had fled on still apace
And that with open barking mouth the tother did him chase.
In faith it was the will of God (at least if any Goddes
Had care of them) that in their pace there should be found none oddes.

Ovid, Metamorphoses, Englished by Arthur Golding, 1567

~~~~~~~


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

nu2poodles said:


> All the "breeds" were _designed_ at one time or another ...


true. so doesn't that make it somewhat silly for anyone to gloat over having a "designer" dog in this day and age? most pf owners love their poodles no matter their origin, but after being here awhile many, like luce, say that as wonderful as their current poodle is, the next time they will look for a serious breeder known for breeding for health, temperament and conformation. otherwise known as breeding to better the breed. it's not something most greeders can lay claim to, fancy words and websites notwithstanding. 

does that make their dogs unlovable? no. not anymore than a badly bred poodle is automatically unlovable - which is not at all. it's just that there's a line between good breeders and greeders/back yard breeders. i can understand someone getting a byb dog of any kind for $200 to $500. not everyone can afford thousands and often there is a child in the family who wants a pet. but to pay twice as much for a mutt because it's been dubbed a "designer dog" than one would pay for a poodle from a good breeder is beyond me. pretty sure responsible breeders of labs feel the same way.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

patk said:


> true. so doesn't that make it somewhat silly for anyone to gloat over having a "designer" dog in this day and age? most pf owners love their poodles no matter their origin, but after being here awhile many, like luce, say that as wonderful as their current poodle is, the next time they will look for a serious breeder known for breeding for health, temperament and conformation. otherwise known as breeding to better the breed. it's not something most greeders can lay claim to, fancy words and websites notwithstanding.
> 
> . . .


If you take the money out of dog breeding the "greeders" will go away, and those who are really, genuinely interested in improving the "breeds" (whatever they may be) will remain.

Such is routine in field dog breeding, where there is almost no money to be made unless you are a trainer (rather than a breeder). And the sport is horrendously expensive, since it involves not merely a kennel of dogs, but horses and trailers and very long trips withal. Many of these people breed only to produce the best dog. It's a hobby.

At one time much dog breeding was done non-commercially, for sport or as an hobby; many of today's breeders and dog organizations have transformed it to big business where a _monetary_ return on investment is a primary goal ...

There are even "rescue" organizations that appear to be disguised outlets for puppy mills, because there's money to be made ...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

nu2poodles said:


> If you take the money out of dog breeding the "greeders" will go away, and those who are really, genuinely interested in improving the "breeds" (whatever they may be) will remain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is wrong with somebody doing what they love and earning a living at it? If somebody wishes to dedicate themselves to breeding or rescuing full time because that is what they love to do more than anything, I have no problem with them paying their light bill or putting food on their table while doing it. A hobbiest with 3-4 dogs will not contribute much to improving the breed, nor save and rehab many dogs...


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

nu2poodles said:


> If you take the money out of dog breeding the "greeders" will go away, and those who are really, genuinely interested in improving the "breeds" (whatever they may be) will remain.
> 
> Such is routine in field dog breeding, where there is almost no money to be made unless you are a trainer (rather than a breeder). And the sport is horrendously expensive, since it involves not merely a kennel of dogs, but horses and trailers and very long trips withal. Many of these people breed only to produce the best dog. It's a hobby.
> 
> ...


Grace and her siblings are just such dogs. They are the result of a field group breeding poodles for retrievers. Grace is a more muscular and thicker set poodle than the show dogs. She has a wider, softer muzzle. So far, legs crossed, she has been disgustingly healthy at 26 months. I find I have an aversion to breeding "show" dogs for thin lines and elegant looks. Poodles are retrievers not fashion accessories.
Eric:aetsch:


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## sweets (Jan 15, 2015)

At the end of the day they are just dogs so what does it matter what breed or mix they are as long as they are happy and are loved by and provide the companionship their owners want that's all that should matter


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## ApricotsRock (Jan 10, 2014)

I think the doodles have won. We went to watch our town's Memorial Day Parade today. More than 3/4s of the dogs we saw were doodles of some sort. We are a summer tourist village, very popular this time of year with out of towners. So I can safely guess these dogs were from a variety of different places. (And there's a good chance I would know the locals.)

Why anyone takes their dog to a place where there is lots of people, a loud band and gunshots is beyond me, but that is a whole different story.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ApricotsRock said:


> Why anyone takes their dog to a place where there is lots of people, a loud band and gunshots is beyond me, but that is a whole different story.


A different story... but a short one. People that own doodles would do that. lol


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## ApricotsRock (Jan 10, 2014)

LOL Countryboy! I should have connected the dots myself!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

these so-called "australian labradoodles" are nothing but a gigantic scam. those dogs are almost 100% poodle, with a bit of god-knows-what mixed in. they originated from a puppy farm in australia, the owner just mixed whatever with poodles and called it a new breed, including random crosses she got from the pound. pedigrees are totally fake. that woman made millions over years of scamming people into thinking this was a new breed. read all about it:

https://stoprutlandmanor.wordpress.com/2009/09/01/is-there-any-labra-in-your-asd-labradoodle/

https://farmsofshame.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/the-designer-dog-fraud/


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