# How to make a better line of reds



## thestars

Harley_chik said:


> Do you really believe your own post? Even the PM you sent me made it sound like A) you are in fact friends w/ Laura and B) you have a serious issue w/ Arreau. If Laura isn't your friend and you don't have a problem with Arreau then why get involved in their business? I'm not the only one that saw the mention of Dugan as a shot at Arreau and I honestly think that's how you meant it. You know he is associated w/ Arreau's program and most people here know of b/c Arreau has mentioned him. Why pick that dog if it wasn't to get Arreau's attention?


I am not friends with Laura. 

Respectfully, I would hope Arreau posts her results of her testing. She knows I have requested through PMs and private emails that she share as I am interested in other testing facilities testing procedures, QA and certification. OFA and VetGen are not the only companies out there that test dogs. We share a common love of the red standard poodle breed. How are we to make the red breed better if people hide things? Every red breeder out there is of interest to me as well as BYB and doodle breeders getting reds into their programs. How can we make the red line better? Please share your opinion on that subject, I'll even start a new thread for the response. I am *truly* interested in people opinions be they knowledgeable or not about breeding. In the military it was called the suggestion program in others it's called grass roots efforts. Everyone's opinion is valuable as perception is important to understand.


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## roxy25

Here you go

http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=4827&highlight=inky+black&page=4 
take note of what cbrand is saying


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## Harley_chik

I think you have to start w/ nice dogs that fit the standard and breed for the total package. Not just color, COI, temperment, health *OR* conformation. There really seems to be a trend w/ red breeders who think they are special. They don't have to show or do the proper health testing. Even you (Thestars) mentioned the "gold standard for reds." There should be no "for red", they are poodles, just like any other. If they were bred to the same "gold standard" as other colors, there would be more quality reds. There might be fewer reds in general, but higher percentage would be healthy, well tempered and nice looking. You don't see silver breeders holding themselves to a separate standard. B/c of that there are more nice silvers out there and they are doing more winning in the show ring. To further Roxy's point, silver breeders are breeding out to other colors (blue, white, black).


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## bigredpoodle

I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they *Do carry *the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint  Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long.. 
Silver *needs the white *in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !


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## thestars

Harley_chik said:


> I think you have to start w/ nice dogs that fit the standard and breed for the total package. Not just color, COI, temperment, health *OR* conformation. There really seems to be a trend w/ red breeders who think they are special. They don't have to show or do the proper health testing. Even you (Thestars) mentioned the "gold standard for reds." There should be no "for red", they are poodles, just like any other. If they were bred to the same "gold standard" as other colors, there would be more quality reds. There might be fewer reds in general, but higher percentage would be healthy, well tempered and nice looking. You don't see silver breeders holding themselves to a separate standard. B/c of that there are more nice silvers out there and they are doing more winning in the show ring. To further Roxy's point, silver breeders are breeding out to other colors (blue, white, black).


The "gold standard" was meant for OFA and Vetgen. That's the "gold standard" that I was referring to for puppy buyers as well as breeder referrals that we point out to potential puppy buyers. I too believe it should be based on the defined standard for the poodle. I know all about color breeding and what can and should not be used for the reds. I also know about what I'm currently seeing in the AKC ring. poor front carriages, ewe necks, no chins and over angulation in the rear. It actually hurts to see this happening in the poodle. I had attended a Pat Hastings seminar called the Puppy Puzzle, mostly on structure of the dog. I so want to hire her to evaluate Bindi's first litter, way down the road of course. As a respected AKC judge and knowledgeable breeder her evaluations of puppies is spot on.


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## Harley_chik

I know you were talking about health testing but you implied that there was a different standard for health testing, when it comes to red, than there are for Poodles in general. My point was that is the problem, red breeders seem to think there is a different set of "rules" for them b/c their color is new.


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## bigredpoodle

This is the poodle in general Not just the reds correct? I have seen HUGE black in the ring and eeeney weenie litle whites as well. So it is not just reds that have a problem.. 
My male *is *putting fronts on his puppies I am VERY proud of that ....


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## jak

bigredpoodle said:


> I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they *Do carry *the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint  Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long..
> Silver *needs the white *in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !


Wouldn't breeding to a black dominant fix that?
So then it wouldn't carry the gene with all of those light colours, and then with the offspring, they would all be black, but then they would carry the gene for reds, and you would know that it was red, as the mother would be red, or vice versa.


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## thestars

What I am really wanting to find out more from an outsiders perspective is the perception issue of the Red standard and the Breeders that have been and that are currently involved with the line. And why do so many people ask for a DARK Red poodle. Can they not be happy with any red poodle? I do not want to have the same perception reflected on my future breeding program just because I choose the hardest color out there. My personal goal is to make the red as viable in the ring as any color, albeit on a small breeding scale as these kids are my pets as well. Heck I am am even willing to accept defeat if the program is not up to the highest standards. I even believe that as a Red Breeder I will have to go beyond the currently established standards to ensure that the perception does not go back to what it is currently now being seeing in red breeding programs.


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> I think that the dogs that are being used should be of the highest quality available. Tested and pointed if possible. WE need to gravitate towards the darker of the reds , staying away as much as possible from teh ones that have faded,,,,, as in my opinion they *Do carry *the fading factor, . But I am still on the fence about bringing in a black in the mix... Time will tell.. Others have tried this and have gotten blacks and apricots.. So far I have not seen this work...I agree with cbrand that it is not like mixing paint  Lets not forget that the reds have not been around very long..
> Silver *needs the white *in the mix to help them fade BTW....Silver is a direct decendant of black and white.....I had a silver boy that was the product of a blue bitch and she was striking.. I love the blues.. Blue silver white black all related !


I think using blacks should not be ruled out completely, the thing is you need to look at their pedigree. If you have a black that has whites in their pedigree you obviously do not want to breed to them to your red... you probably also want to stay away from blacks that is dominant black, as all puppies would then be black. Unless, your goal is to breed those black puppies back to reds. So, basically you could breed to black if they had red/apricot only in their pedigree?!?!?!?!
It's true, it's not like mixing paint... unfortunately a lot of breeders think it's just that easy. 
I don't know if one is breeding for color how much of the desired traits (other than color) do you end up with?


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## bigredpoodle

Maybe,,,,, but so far that is not what is happening ..It really does depend on the other colors that the balck dog carries, and because black is dominate and carries for many other colors you would get black , cream or apricot or brown .. Very few black carry the red gene... The fading as far as looking at a pedigree is concerned is showing these particular (fading reds) dogs have silver white and cream in the pedigree...This seems to be the issue.. But this is still unknown as well . I have dark reds and am breeding dark red to dark red . Getting dark...So we will see. As I said time will tell...
Because red is not dominate yet..


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## thestars

jak said:


> Wouldn't breeding to a black dominant fix that?
> So then it wouldn't carry the gene with all of those light colours, and then with the offspring, they would all be black, but then they would carry the gene for reds, and you would know that it was red, as the mother would be red, or vice versa.


 You would need a clean 4 to 5 generation of just blacks in the line to fix type. (If you know one let me know because I am on the look out, I know of only two kennels that do straight black only breeding) You do not want to introduce white or cream and especially not brown silver or blue into the red line.


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## jak

PonkiPoodles said:


> I think using blacks should not be ruled out completely, the thing is you need to look at their pedigree. If you have a black that has whites in their pedigree you obviously do not want to breed to them to your red... you probably also want to stay away from blacks that is dominant black, as all puppies would then be black. Unless, your goal is to breed those black puppies back to reds. So, basically you could breed to black if they had red/apricot only in their pedigree?!?!?!?!
> It's true, it's not like mixing paint... unfortunately a lot of breeders think it's just that easy.
> I don't know if one is breeding for color how much of the desired traits (other than color) do you end up with?


But if you bred to a dominant black, with all the right colour in the pedigree, sure you would get black puppies, but then your puppies would carry the gene for your desired red colour, and not white or apricot. And then you can breed your puppies to another dominant black, same type of breeding as your puppies (not inbreeding), or a red.

With a dominant black, some of the puppies would carry the red, some wouldn't, an easy genetic test would soon tell.

If you bred to the same type of breeding, then you would get blacks and reds in the litter, some blacks would carry the red, some wouldn't

If you bred to a red, you would get reds, and blacks that carried red.

Am I wrong here?


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## bigredpoodle

So far that is not what is happening  Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..


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## thestars

Nope you are not wrong. We just got to get some nice All Black poodle breeders to help us Red Poodle Breeder out in making better type. But of course not to bring in all the diseases.


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> You would need a clean 4 to 5 generation of just blacks in the line to fix type. (If you know one let me know because I am on the look out, I know of only two kennels that do straight black only breeding) You do not want to introduce white or cream and especially not brown silver or blue into the red line.


So you would be doing this to improve overal structure balance and fronts correct?


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## jak

bigredpoodle said:


> So far that is not what is happening  Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..


That does not necessarily mean that epilepsy happens in that type of breeding.
I know that dark reds bred to dark reds will produce dark reds, but I thought this was about bringing the overall quality of reds up, and I thought that by using high quality dominant blacks, that this might work?


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## roxy25

I don't think the black dog has to have only blacks. If the black dog is carrying the E allele and has no browns then you can work you way up from there. Only use INKY BLACK DOGS that don't fade. 

The first litter might have cremes and apricots if you breed a red to a black with white and creme in the back ground. 

All you do is take that puppy and breed it back to a deep red and the pups should be red or deep apricot. It will take time to get the color back! Imo its worth it if you want some AKC quality dogs. it just seems like most red breeders are only willing to do red to reds because of the $$$ involved.


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> So far that is not what is happening  Some have tried,,,, Joan of majestic told me that the only time she bred to black she got epilepsy.. She bred nothing but apricots and reds .. That is a proven fact that she got reds time after time..


If that's the case the black dog's line was probably carrying epilepsy. I don't think it was because she bred to a black.


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## roxy25

PonkiPoodles said:


> If that's the case the black dog's line was probably carrying epilepsy. I don't think it was because she bred to a black.


I agree it has nothing to do with the dog being black it was probably the line Joan used.


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## bigredpoodle

jak said:


> That does not necessarily mean that epilepsy happens in that type of breeding.
> I know that dark reds bred to dark reds will produce dark reds, but I thought this was about bringing the overall quality of reds up, and I thought that by using high quality dominant blacks, that this might work?


That is not really what I meant I was pointing out that she only ever went to black the one time (Or at least that is what she told me.). And the fact that she got epilepsy from that one breeding to the black..And that she never did it again. She had reds that held their color their whole life.. 
You are assuming that all reds are of poor quality., this is not the case. Ihave seen some very nice reds. I personally breed the reds because I love the color and my goal is produce reds that *will win *in the ring.. And that have outstanding health ....I am hoping that I can do this without bringing a black in , I am not intersted in breeding cremes and apricots....That kinda defeats the purpose.


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## PonkiPoodles

roxy25 said:


> I don't think the black dog has to have only blacks. If the black dog is carrying the E allele and has no browns then you can work you way up from there. Only use INKY BLACK DOGS that don't fade.
> 
> The first litter might have cremes and apricots if you breed a red to a black with white and creme in the back ground.
> 
> All you do is take that puppy and breed it back to a deep red and the pups should be red or deep apricot. It will take time to get the color back! Imo its worth it if you want some AKC quality dogs. it just seems like most red breeders are only willing to do red to reds because of the $$$ involved.


I agree roxy, they don't want to take the long road... they want a quick fix.


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## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> So you would be doing this to improve overal structure balance and fronts correct?


Definitely! As well as higher tailsets. IT would HAVE to be the RIGHT black to outcross to and lord knows I would want see all the health of past and current litters!!!


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> That is not really what I meant I was pointing out that she only ever went to black the one time (Or at least that is what she told me.). And the fact that she got epilepsy from that one breeding to the black..And that she never did it again. She had reds that held their color their whole life..
> You are assuming that all reds are of poor quality., this is not the case. Ihave seen some very nice reds. I personally breed the reds because I love the color and my goal is produce reds that *will win *in the ring.. And that have outstanding health ....I am hoping that I can do this without bringing a black in , I am not intersted in breeding cremes and apricots....That kinda defeats the purpose.


I don't see how you are going to raise the quality if you only breed reds to reds. As you've said, it's a small genepool. If you don't bring dogs in with the correct confirmation you can breed red to red til your blue, you won't get the desired traits, cause what if only a black can give you that perfect head?


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## thestars

PonkiPoodles said:


> I agree roxy, they don't want to take the long road... they want a quick fix.


Thanks for your opinion, really. Do you know how long the road has been so far for our predecessors? It is always a work in progress in breeding, it is definitely never a quick fix.


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## jak

bigredpoodle said:


> That is not really what I meant I was pointing out that she only ever went to black the one time (Or at least that is what she told me.). And the fact that she got epilepsy from that one breeding to the black..And that she never did it again. She had reds that held their color their whole life..
> You are assuming that all reds are of poor quality., this is not the case. Ihave seen some very nice reds. I personally breed the reds because I love the color and my goal is produce reds that *will win *in the ring.. And that have outstanding health ....I am hoping that I can do this without bringing a black in , I am not intersted in breeding cremes and apricots....That kinda defeats the purpose.


I'm not assuming that *all* reds are poor quality, I am assuming that there aren't many that are great quality. And with the already limited gene pool, finding good quality reds would be a struggle, and if you were to only breed red to red, you might find yourself in a spot of trouble.


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## thestars

PonkiPoodles said:


> I don't see how you are going to raise the quality if you only breed reds to reds. As you've said, it's a small genepool. If you don't bring dogs in with the correct confirmation you can breed red to red til your blue, you won't get the desired traits, cause what if only a black can give you that perfect head?


Breeding Red to Red helps "set" the color. If you look in the toy/mini poodle realm they also work to be just color-bred reds. I know several very good red toy breeders they will not out-cross to other colors. Thus the red standard came from the Minis in red and Apricots in standards.


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## jak

PonkiPoodles said:


> I don't see how you are going to raise the quality if you only breed reds to reds. As you've said, it's a small genepool. If you don't bring dogs in with the correct confirmation you can breed red to red til your blue, you won't get the desired traits, cause what if only a black can give you that perfect head?


Exactly, and with COI being so important to a lot of Red breeders, I'm struggling to see how reds are going to be *consistantly* of good quality, without inbreeding to the already limited gene pool


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## roxy25

jak said:


> Exactly, and with COI being so important to a lot of Red breeders, I'm struggling to see how reds are going to be *consistantly* of good quality, without inbreeding to the already limited gene pool


I agree some of the majestic dogs have high COI's and if you are concerned with stuff like that, sooner or later you will hit a bump in the road because the dogs will be inbred.


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## bigredpoodle

jak said:


> Exactly, and with COI being so important to a lot of Red breeders, I'm struggling to see how reds are going to be *consistantly* of good quality, without inbreeding to the already limited gene pool


If you look back at any one consistant color . When it was being developed that is You will see very high COI.. This is just something that cannot be denied... I was on a breeders page and looking at her *Apricots pedigree*. The COI was 48 % 
She is a line bred lovely dog that is gentically clear for everything and is 5 .
COI is not everything.. It is a tool in a big box of tools that are givent o us as breeders....


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## KalaMama

I think it has to be done on a small scale and similar to what may go into creating a new breed of dog(not quite as involved but the concept is still there). I think you have to start with a bitch or that are finishable. I am sure there are some nice reds out there. So get the healthiest, best packaged bitches you can find. Finish them AKC to show your dedication to the breed and prove worthiness to some of the breeders with the best stud dogs out there. Then, find the best stud dog(health, conformation, color) that you can find that may produce the best ratio of reds. It may not happen the first litter, but that is why it will take a long time for this to happen. Once you finally get a puppy(ies) that are the color, conformation that would compare to any other colored champion sired, damed pup, then you will have a start. Take this pup and do the same thing. If you have a few bitches or work with other red breeders that are as dedicated and have the same goals as you, then you may even have a champion red male to choose from. Eventually, line breeding will need to occur but this process will take years and setbacks with health, wrong color, etc are all part of the deal.


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## thestars

All of the colors are not perfected. If they were we wouldn't be here discussing it. Blacks and whites have had several decades if not a century to get "perfected" yet they are not. It is an on-going "experiment", makes your wonder more about Darwinism. Anyway, we are not going to be the last of the red breeders in the ongoing saga of breeding poodles. We just have to take what predesessors have learned and what we are learning today to improve the line. It's got to start somewhere.


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> Definitely! As well as higher tailsets. IT would HAVE to be the RIGHT black to outcross to and lord knows I would want see all the health of past and current litters!!!


I will be watching ! I am most intersted to see if someone actually gets it to work . I am not interested in breeding to experiment...I want to improve and darken the reds... Keeping out the cremes and apricots THAT FADE That have winter nose.. This is NOT what I want thats all


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## bigredpoodle

KalaMama said:


> I think it has to be done on a small scale and similar to what may go into creating a new breed of dog(not quite as involved but the concept is still there). I think you have to start with a bitch or that are finishable. I am sure there are some nice reds out there. So get the healthiest, best packaged bitches you can find. Finish them AKC to show your dedication to the breed and prove worthiness to some of the breeders with the best stud dogs out there. Then, find the best stud dog(health, conformation, color) that you can find that may produce the best ratio of reds. It may not happen the first litter, but that is why it will take a long time for this to happen. Once you finally get a puppy(ies) that are the color, conformation that would compare to any other colored champion sired, damed pup, then you will have a start. Take this pup and do the same thing. If you have a few bitches or work with other red breeders that are as dedicated and have the same goals as you, then you may even have a champion red male to choose from. Eventually, line breeding will need to occur but this process will take years and setbacks with health, wrong color, etc are all part of the deal.


You are correct . It is all about knowing the structure . I know that when I have shown my BBE bitch Kitty the judges ere crazy about her color type and temperment ... She is young so time will tell And if I can ever get coat on her. I like the silk turtleneck idea...She is always matted there from Neelix....He is BAD ! 
There are Champion reds out there but they are fading Having tons of Apricot in the pedigree which goes back to the black. Tons of health problems too....


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## Dogsinstyle

"She is a line bred lovely dog that is gentically clear for everything and is 5 .
COI is not everything.. It is a tool in a big box of tools that are givent o us as breeders...." 

I'd like to see that pedigree....
Carole


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## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> I will be watching ! I am most intersted to see if someone actually gets it to work . I am not interested in breeding to experiment...I want to improve and darken the reds... Keeping out the cremes and apricots THAT FADE That have winter nose.. This is NOT what I want thats all


Noteworthy breeding goal! 

From the comments I have had from AKC judges I've shown to thus far, they loved above all else Bindi's coal black points and her pretty headpiece.


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## PonkiPoodles

thestars said:


> All of the colors are not perfected. If they were we wouldn't be here discussing it. Blacks and whites have had several decades if not a century to get "perfected" yet they are not. It is an on-going "experiment", makes your wonder more about Darwinism. Anyway, we are not going to be the last of the red breeders in the ongoing saga of breeding poodles. We just have to take what predesessors have learned and what we are learning today to improve the line. It's got to start somewhere.


This is true, but the truth is dogs will never be perfected, cause not all breeders have the same goals in mind. 
One breeds for color, one breeds to get better heads, one breeds for longer legs, one breeds to get rid of disease - each one has their own agenda and goals. So I think it all depends on which angle you choose to look from.


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## thestars

PonkiPoodles said:


> This is true, but the truth is dogs will never be perfected, cause not all breeders have the same goals in mind.
> One breeds for color, one breeds to get better heads, one breeds for longer legs, one breeds to get rid of disease - each one has their own agenda and goals. So I think it all depends on which angle you choose to look from.


You are very right. Each breeder has goals and each prioritized. Unfortunately the "human element" is involved as well.


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## jak

bigredpoodle said:


> If you look back at any one consistant color . When it was being developed that is You will see very high COI.. This is just something that cannot be denied... I was on a breeders page and looking at her *Apricots pedigree*. The COI was 48 %
> She is a line bred lovely dog that is gentically clear for everything and is 5 .
> COI is not everything.. It is a tool in a big box of tools that are givent o us as breeders....


Yes, I myself don't think COI is the bee all and end all, I was just pointing out that some red breeders find it to be an extremely useful tool, and don't like it to be too high, that they are rather limiting themselves to only breed to red.

Also, that is all well and good to say that in the developing of colours that the COI was high, but we are talking ages ago here, and now we have all of this wonderful technology to aid us with breeding, it's a shame not all of it is used...

And I also wanted to say, that I thought most of these good red dogs, don't come from 5 generations of health tested dogs, so I don't see how that would help by just breeding red to red.


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## jak

thestars said:


> All of the colors are not perfected. If they were we wouldn't be here discussing it. Blacks and whites have had several decades if not a century to get "perfected" yet they are not. It is an on-going "experiment", makes your wonder more about Darwinism. Anyway, we are not going to be the last of the red breeders in the ongoing saga of breeding poodles. We just have to take what predesessors have learned and what we are learning today to improve the line. It's got to start somewhere.


Yes, but health testing is an all but recent development, so I don't think you can say that that applies to other colours.


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## jak

bigredpoodle said:


> I will be watching ! I am most intersted to see if someone actually gets it to work . I am not interested in breeding to experiment...I want to improve and darken the reds... Keeping out the cremes and apricots THAT FADE That have winter nose.. This is NOT what I want thats all


I'd think that is rather limiting yourself there?

As I said before, you could try and at least find a black that doesn't have that and work from there, you don't really want to set yourself up to fail


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## bigredpoodle

jak said:


> I'd think that is rather limiting yourself there?
> 
> As I said before, you could try and at least find a black that doesn't have that and work from there, you don't really want to set yourself up to fail


Time will certainly tell. I am not saying no to it I am just saying that I have yet to see it benefit.. I do have some friends out there that have blacks that are interested to breed into my line, so we will see...Color testing is a big must for me before anything else can happen ..No Brown no creme in the pedigree,,,,Trust me I do not have any plans to fail


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## Purple Poodle

> I am not intersted in breeding cremes and apricots


You do realize Red, Cream and Apricot are all the same color right? Just different shades.

I for one could care less about the "Red" Poodle, its one of my least likable colors on a Poodle. But I will say that "Red" Poodles and Multi-Colored Poodles are in the same boat. Its going to take dedication from breeders and exhibitors to get the color and quality down right. They are both colors that are popular in the companion pet trade thus more HVB/BYB thus subpar dogs being bred who should not.

Anyway...


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## jak

Purple Poodle said:


> You do realize Red, Cream and Apricot are all the same color right? Just different shades.


That's why I thought an Black Dominant would be good


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## thestars

jak said:


> That's why I thought an Black Dominant would be good


Not necessarily. According to John Armstrong's, Color Genes in the Poodles, there is no black gene, but rather a number of genes that work together to produce black. http://www.canine-genetics.com/pdlcolor.html http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/pdlcolor.html
Also, if you look at health issues, they are predominant in Blacks.


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## Purple Poodle

thestars said:


> Not necessarily. According to John Armstrong's, Color Genes in the Poodles, there is no black gene, but rather a number of genes that work together to produce black. http://www.canine-genetics.com/pdlcolor.html http://www.netpets.com/dogs/reference/genetics/pdlcolor.html
> *Also, if you look at health issues, they are predominant in Blacks.*


All Poodles have health issues not just blacks  Blacks are a dominant color and have been bred for many more years then colored Poodles.

I think with breeding for a rich color you breed dogs back to black to keep pigment.


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## thestars

Yes, they do but are more prevalent in blacks.

One problem people have with genetics is they think its a single gene or pair of genes, when in reality there is a multitude of genes that contribute to traits like coat color. It is more complex and the genes have not been fully mapped out yet.


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## Harley_chik

Why don't you guys tell us what you're doing to improve your lines? Are you seeing a payoff in the show ring? 

The other breeders here talk about shows, wins, obedience titles, post show pics and videos, where are yours? Most of what I see is just puppy pics. If you think your dogs are fine the way they are and just want to improve public perception, this would go a long way.


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## roxy25

Harley_chik said:


> Why don't you guys tell us what you're doing to improve your lines? Are you seeing a payoff in the show ring?
> 
> The other breeders here talk about shows, wins, obedience titles, post show pics and videos, where are yours? If you think your dogs are fine the way they are and just want to improve public perception, this would go a long way.



Since I'm not a dog breeder I do see a pay off with showing Enzo  Even though we have not received any points we keep winning classes and other dogs show up. Today we have a show and I will let you guys know how he does. People really are liking Enzo everyone says we could finish him owner handler ( I totally disagree lol but we are trying really hard)


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## bigpoodleperson

> Why don't you guys tell us what you're doing to improve your lines? Are you seeing a payoff in the show ring?
> 
> The other breeders here talk about shows, wins, obedience titles, post show pics and videos, where are yours? Most of what I see is just puppy pics. If you think your dogs are fine the way they are and just want to improve public perception, this would go a long way.


I think that would be great! I have been wondering the same thing myself.


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## thestars

Harley_chik said:


> Why don't you guys tell us what you're doing to improve your lines? Are you seeing a payoff in the show ring?
> 
> The other breeders here talk about shows, wins, obedience titles, post show pics and videos, where are yours? Most of what I see is just puppy pics. If you think your dogs are fine the way they are and just want to improve public perception, this would go a long way.


I *really* wish I could post more show pictures and videos!! Anybody want to come hang out at dog shows with me I could sure use the help? :cheer2: I take the camera and camcorder but I go with a mini breeder/owner/handler in the Poodle club. We don't have anyone to take photos and video for us. We help one another get the dogs ready to show. Show them then get them combed back out so the hairspray doesn't break the hair. At ring side, we are holding dogs so they don't break form. Most others around the ring are the next breed to be shown. I haven't seen anyone hang out except at group. Typically we have time enough to get something to eat at the show then back to getting the dogs ready for group. I do hope to get some good shots at our Poodle specialties in May and June. I would like to get a local Photographer just to come out and take them in the cities we'll be showing in. Last show I was at was the one our AKC club put on, when I wasn't in the ring I was helping out at the show. Right now Bindi is growing coat so we won't be going to a show til April. Except for the match show for the George Alston Seminar we'll be attending in March.


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## Purple Poodle

thestars said:


> I *really* wish I could post more show pictures and videos!! Anybody want to come hang out at dog shows with me I could sure use the help? :cheer2: I take the camera and camcorder but I go with a mini breeder/owner/handler in the Poodle club. We don't have anyone to take photos and video for us. We help one another get the dogs ready to show. Show them then get them combed back out so the hairspray doesn't break the hair. At ring side, we are holding dogs so they don't break form. Most others around the ring are the next breed to be shown. I haven't seen anyone hang out except at group. Typically we have time enough to get something to eat at the show then back to getting the dogs ready for group. I do hope to get some good shots at our Poodle specialties in May and June. I would like to get a local Photographer just to come out and take them in the cities we'll be showing in. Last show I was at was the one our AKC club put on, when I wasn't in the ring I was helping out at the show. Right now Bindi is growing coat so we won't be going to a show til April. Except for the match show for the George Alston Seminar we'll be attending in March.


How about just a stack and side gait picture? Does not have to be _at_ a show. I love to work with Tuesday and get stack and gating photos just out in the yard.


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## thestars

Purple Poodle said:


> How about just a stack and side gait picture? Does not have to be _at_ a show. I love to work with Tuesday and get stack and gating photos just out in the yard.


Those are posted on my web site which can be viewed anytime. Besides my website I post to Facebook, Flicker, Photobucket, Webshots, and YouTube.

I haven't been out to your website lately but do you have some new ones of Tuesday?


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## bigredpoodle

This is Kitty winning the Bred By exibitor class at the AKC Flagstaff dog show in June She is home growing coat


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## amerique2

TheStars--I'd be glad to take photos of Bindi at a show since I don't live too far away--Memphis (I'm assuming). Plan on driving to Pine Bluff, AR this weekend for the day to see the Saturday show. Too bad Bindi's still growing coat. I try to go to most shows in TN, AR, MS as well as some in MO and AL. When I go to shows and take photos, I try to send them to the poodle's owners and breeders so they can see their babies in action. Seems they enjoy them as much as I enjoy taking them.


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## roxy25

I agree with PP it does not have to be at shows. Thestars I understand what you mean at shows you normally don't have time to take pictures. But my sister and I always take pictures at home. 

This is the lastest Stacked picture. 










I think the biggest problems with reds are their heads. All the ones I have seen have broad skulls. I have yet to see a red with a refine correct head. 

I have seen a few red poodles movement ( they don't show AKC) and it was poor. I can't speak for some of the members on her since no videos.


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## bigredpoodle

I have seen a few red poodles movement ( they don't show AKC) and it was poor. I can't speak for some of the members on her since no videos.[/QUOTE]

We do not show UKC so I cannot say about UKC dogs movement We only will make the effort to do AKC ..WE were the only red there and got very nice compliments from the judge and the others as well..This is all I have to go on.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

roxy25 said:


> I agree with PP it does not have to be at shows. Thestars I understand what you mean at shows you normally don't have time to take pictures. But my sister and I always take pictures at home.
> 
> This is the lastest Stacked picture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the biggest problems with reds are their heads. All the ones I have seen have broad skulls. I have yet to see a red with a refine correct head.
> 
> I have seen a few red poodles movement ( they don't show AKC) and it was poor. I can't speak for some of the members on her since no videos.


MAN!!! He is HOT!!! I really like him...A LOT!!! The breeder did something right, whether it was pure luck or not. He is a fine looking boy! I love his back end.


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## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I love his back end.


You *WOULD*!! :lol:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

plumcrazy said:


> you *would*!! :lol:


no i am not a pervert!!!


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## thestars

amerique2 said:


> TheStars--I'd be glad to take photos of Bindi at a show since I don't live too far away--Memphis (I'm assuming). Plan on driving to Pine Bluff, AR this weekend for the day to see the Saturday show. Too bad Bindi's still growing coat. I try to go to most shows in TN, AR, MS as well as some in MO and AL. When I go to shows and take photos, I try to send them to the poodle's owners and breeders so they can see their babies in action. Seems they enjoy them as much as I enjoy taking them.


I WILL take you up on that offer! Now I wish I was going to the Pine Bluff show! Contemplating the Camden show, but have to check to make sure I'm not scheduled for Pager that weekend. I do know some toys and a mini that will be there from the poodle club! Check out Jill Cloud of Rococo toy poodles showing in the ring, she may have Snowflake with her which is a complete doll baby! She is a friend and professional handler from our Poodle Club. She may be showing a few Draco toy poodles as well as Hailey a miniature from Nipigon poodles. 

As for stacked photos, they are on Bindi's website. I have a girlfriend who helps get "at home" stacked photos as well as Deborah Billingsley a Professional Pet Photographer. http://www.deborahbillingsley.com/main.html I'm meeting with her tomorrow at 3 to set up a photo shoot for Bindi and Myself so I can use them on my website and publish. She does some real cool stuff.

We have got to get rid of this snow and ice so we can take outdoor photos since indoor ones end up yucky because of the lighting.


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## PonkiPoodles

It's easy to say post pictures/video etc. but it's not that easy, so I get where you are coming from thestars. 
If you are the one grooming/showing/handling you really don't have time to take pictures and make videos.


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## roxy25

plumcrazy said:


> You *WOULD*!! :lol:



LMAO plum your too funny !

I like it to I think he is a little over angulated. I wish is head was correct and has straighter legs.


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## roxy25

PonkiPoodles said:


> It's easy to say post pictures/video etc. but it's not that easy, so I get where you are coming from thestars.
> If you are the one grooming/showing/handling you really don't have time to take pictures and make videos.


Thats why we said at home  I am not saying it has to be at a show because i do understand what she means. this is why when you guys ask if i took pictures at his last show I say no hahaahahaah. I been taking all of those videos because Enzo was not in the ring at those shows.


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## thestars

You said it! First thing in the morning at a show, we wash bracelets to make them straight and fluffy! Then it's on to a good comb/brush out and then comb/ spray up as we try to watch the ring to see what breed they are at. We rush all the dogs to the ring and hold heads, geesh! Then in the ring, hold other poodles and once finished then back to the tables/grooming area to get all the hair spray out with other sprays and blow dryers. (mind you I had to keep resetting the circuit breaker at the last show because it kept blowing.) If we got dogs in group then it's spray them up again before group. My body just wants to quit by the end of the day!!! If an anti-fatigue mat weren't so cumbersome to load around I'd have a few of them. I do get a few moments to go sneak a peak at the Rally or obedience rings since they typically are still going after BES. That's if we aren't washing up a dog. (Yes, spilling sodas/coffee and other dogs pucking/pooping have caused us to wash a dog.) One white bitch even had to go in the ring coffee-stained on her topknot, you can't break a major!


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## roxy25

thestars said:


> You said it! First thing in the morning at a show, we wash bracelets to make them straight and fluffy! Then it's on to a good comb/brush out and then comb/ spray up as we try to watch the ring to see what breed they are at. We rush all the dogs to the ring and hold heads, geesh! Then in the ring, hold other poodles and once finished then back to the tables/grooming area to get all the hair spray out with other sprays and blow dryers. (mind you I had to keep resetting the circuit breaker at the last show because it kept blowing.) If we got dogs in group then it's spray them up again before group. My body just wants to quit by the end of the day!!! If an anti-fatigue mat weren't so cumbersome to load around I'd have a few of them. I do get a few moments to go sneak a peak at the Rally or obedience rings since they typically are still going after BES. That's if we aren't washing up a dog. (Yes, spilling sodas/coffee and other dogs pucking/pooping have caused us to wash a dog.) One white bitch even had to go in the ring coffee-stained on her topknot, you can't break a major!


that sound just about right ! on this passed show " on sat" it was MURDER we had to wake up at 5 am . the club hosting I guess thought it was funny to have standard poodles shown at 9 am ! I did not get any food until 4 pm that day we where so tired and where helping with everyone. 

I also helped my friend Michael with his amstaffs which where after poodles ( this is like un heard of in CA) amstaffs are always 8:00 or 9 and poodles 12 -2pm ....... That day was so crazy. 

On sunday it was so much RELAXED poodle started at 2 pm


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## PonkiPoodles

roxy25 said:


> Thats why we said at home


missed that part... sorry, I can't read very well with this pounding migrane :tongue:


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## roxy25

PonkiPoodles said:


> pounding migrane :tongue:


you too ?!?!?!? I woke up this morning as if i had a hang over !


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> that sound just about right ! on this passed show " on sat" it was MURDER we had to wake up at 5 am . the club hosting I guess thought it was funny to have standard poodles shown at 9 am ! I did not get any food until 4 pm that day we where so tired and where helping with everyone.
> 
> I also helped my friend Michael with his amstaffs which where after poodles ( this is like un heard of in CA) amstaffs are always 8:00 or 9 and poodles 12 -2pm ....... That day was so crazy.
> 
> 
> On sunday it was so much RELAXED poodle started at 2 pm


Sounds like a typical dog show  
There is no way I can get video either stars.. Show pics done by the pros after the show are all I can swing...


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## PonkiPoodles

roxy25 said:


> you too ?!?!?!? I woke up this morning as if i had a hang over !


ditto... and I don't drink... must be the swine flu :scared:


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## roxy25

PonkiPoodles said:


> ditto... and I don't drink... must be the swine flu :scared:


I know I rarely drink also hahahah I think I am clear of the swine flu I seriously think i had it last year ! 

I will see if I can take some more pictures of Enzo today !


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## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> Sounds like a typical dog show
> There is no way I can get video either stars.. Show pics done by the pros after the show are all I can swing...


I won't pay for crappy lighting photos unless its a big win. They last show was in a horse/cattle arena on dirt. The photographer was utilizing one of the obedience rings the first day and just outside another ring the second day. I've seen the second days BES photo and it was truly horrible! That's why me and Bindi are going into the studio for a shoot. Controlled lighting is a key factor!


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> Sounds like a typical dog show
> There is no way I can get video either stars.. Show pics done by the pros after the show are all I can swing...


We did the pro pics the last time we had nationals with the dobes. The guy who took the pictures were really good.

Here's his site: http://jstitzel.photobiz.com/cart/


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> I won't pay for crappy lighting photos unless its a big win. They last show was in a horse/cattle arena on dirt. The photographer was utilizing one of the obedience rings the first day and just outside another ring the second day. I've seen the second days BES photo and it was truly horrible! That's why me and Bindi are going into the studio for a shoot. Controlled lighting is a key factor!


Wow we have always gotten really good pics at the dog shows Plus it is a way to catalogue your wins Jean .. Remember what happened to that lady in Canada where they lost all of he wins.. Plus you get the pic with the judge helps you remember who they are  I rarely buy a catalogue any more man do they pile up. But need to start I guess , now that I am doing poodles anyway .. I went to a cluster last year and the catolaogue was 20.00 I refused to pay that....


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## bigredpoodle

PonkiPoodles said:


> We did the pro pics the last time we had nationals with the dobes. The guy who took the pictures were really good.
> 
> Here's his site: http://jstitzel.photobiz.com/cart/


Dont you feel like it keeps track of your wins as well ?


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> I won't pay for crappy lighting photos unless its a big win. They last show was in a horse/cattle arena on dirt. The photographer was utilizing one of the obedience rings the first day and just outside another ring the second day. I've seen the second days BES photo and it was truly horrible! That's why me and Bindi are going into the studio for a shoot. Controlled lighting is a key factor!


Ya I saw that show ground and it was REALLY awful. I wouls have not paid for a photo either.. I take class wins when they are puppies abut then not again until they point...


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## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> Ya I saw that show ground and it was REALLY awful. I wouls have not paid for a photo either.. I take class wins when they are puppies abut then not again until they point...


Yes, I will ensure I have photos with the judge to ensure I got evidence but that does not necessarily mean I'll pay $40 dollars for a crap Pro Photo. Mind you I have had some good photographers too. Melinda Julian does some great work in Texas.


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> Yes, I will ensure I have photos with the judge to ensure I got evidence but that does not necessarily mean I'll pay $40 dollars for a crap Pro Photo. Mind you I have had some good photographers too. Melinda Julian does some great work in Texas.


Ya I hear ya ..


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> Dont you feel like it keeps track of your wins as well ?


It does, but paying the pro photos can get expensive real quick.


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## bigredpoodle

Only if your winning  Which is a good thing....


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## PonkiPoodles

bigredpoodle said:


> Only if your winning  Which is a good thing....


LOL! Very true :biggrin:


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## bigredpoodle

Thought maybe you had not realized that


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