# My Standard Poodle won't get off my bed!



## charlieforever (Aug 6, 2015)

Hi all, help needed here. Charlie is my 4.5 year old Standard Poodle who is generally well behaved except for occasionally when he decides to stop walking during walks. I've had him since the end of May. He knows that getting onto my bed is not allowed. I set up a "charlie cam" a few months ago to watch Charlie while I'm at work and make sure he's not getting into trouble. He generally just lies down in his usual spot and sleeps the entire day. Well, starting from yesterday he has been getting up on my bed! It is the first time I ever saw him do that, and the reason I didn't permit it is because my bed is so high and I was afraid he would have hip and joint problems. Anyway, I thought he would pretend the entire thing never happened when I got home. But when I got home, there he was on my bed. He refused to get down even though I was very stern with him in my tone. When I tried to lift him off, he growled, which he has never done at me before. I don't know what's gotten into him. Please help! He did it again last night, and finally got off when I held up his leash and he thought he was going on a walk. I had him go into his crate and locked the crate door for the night which I normally don't do, because I knew he would probably try to get on my bed again. When I let him out this morning, he immediately went onto my bed while I was in my bathroom and refused to come down. He has been there ever since. I don't know what to do, please help. I don't want to lure him down with a treat since it might reinforce his behavior. Any and all advicew welcome!! :alberteinstein:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Get you a fly swat and get him off the bed ! You can't let him boss you around, it will only get worst.


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## charlieforever (Aug 6, 2015)

Do I swat his bottom to get off the bed, or what's the approach?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I would tell him to get off. He is old enough to know what you want and if he doesn't, yes, swat his behind. It will not take much, he will get off. Then praise him. Then I would keep the door to my bedroom closed while I am not home.


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

A gentle swat on the behind combined with the command, "down" or "off the bed"should do the trick. If not. . .swat a little harder and speak a little louder. When he does get down, praise him and give him a treat. Perhaps you might also try closing the door to your bedroom when you are gone so he cannot get on the bed without your permission.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would hook him to a leash and pull him off, telling him NO! and BAD DOG! Buck sleeps in our bed and uses bolster pillows to jump off and on. I now wish that I had made the bed off limits because he is so hard to shift and he's such a bed hog. Oh, well.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

charlieforever said:


> ... I don't know what to do, please help. I don't want to lure him down with a treat since it might reinforce his behavior. Any and all advicew welcome!! :alberteinstein:


A bit out of my depth here but I'm replying because you sound desparate.

Sounds to me like he's resource guarding the bed. I would *not* engage in swatting/hitting or a confrontational approach. I *would* take some high value treats or a favorite toy of his and toss it a bit of a distance away from the bed. When he gets off to retrieve the bounty I would praise him, calmly leash him, walk him out of the bedroom and close the door. For the time being a closed bedroom door and a leash will be your best friends to help manage the situation. That will give you time to work on addressing his issue in a constructive way by teaching him the behaviors and boundaries you want and that are acceptable. Some good, comprehensive info and training ideas here. Stay safe and good luck!:clover:

http://www.marysdogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/WDJ_Resource_Gaurding.pdf
Ever had a dog who won’t give you his bone or
chew toy if you try to take it from him? Or one
who gets uncomfortable or growls if you get close
to him when he’s eating his dog food? Or snaps
at you if he’s on the sofa and you want him off?
Or lifts his lip in a snarl if your friend tries to get
close to you?

Answer yes to any of the above, and you’ve
successfully diagnosed your dog as having a
guarding issue. The catch-all, technical term is
“resource-guarding,” and can include guarding
of dog food bowls (or food), places (dog crate, dog bed,
sofa, etc.), items (rawhide, bones, balls, tissues, etc.)
and less commonly,people.
... *Punishing your dog for resource guarding can cause him to stop giving warnings altogether, or strengthen the behavior. His underlying emotion (“I wish she would stay away from my bed!”) remains. Instead of growling, he’ll just bite without warning. *

https://positively.com/dog-behavior/aggression/resource-guarding/
Should I Punish My Dog for Guarding Resources?
Because people often misunderstand why their dogs guard and why there is social competition, many owners of resource guarders often get angry and confrontational with their dogs. *Confrontation, however, increases competition and causes the dog to guard the contested resource even more. Using physical punishment on a resource guarding dog is the exact opposite of what you need to do.* Instead, make sure you understand the canine experience and work to instill more confidence in the dog so that he feels less threatened.

When working to rehabilitate a dog that aggressively guards his resources, he should not be 'dominated' into submission, nor should he be challenged or physically punished. It is much safer to attempt a 'bloodless coup' without the dog ever realizing you are doing so.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Listen to Chagall's Mom...she has given you excellent info. make the treats smelly and extra yummy. And keep the door closed. You may want to crate him while you are gone. I would try to find a behaviors to help you.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> He did it again last night, and finally got off when I held up his leash and he thought he was going on a walk. I had him go into his crate and locked the crate door for the night which I normally don't do, because I knew he would probably try to get on my bed again.


Here, you _*inadvertently*_ punished him for getting off the bed. He didn't get to go for a walk as expected, but instead all the fun stopped when he went in his crate. So, getting off the bed...moving when you ask, to his way of thinking resorts in a boring, alone time. When he gets off the bed, he needs to be rewarded for a "job" well done. You can make a game out of it. Teach placement cues, (you can probably find something online, but basically, show the dog by patting an area, coaxing, pointing and rewarding big time for his moving. Do not lure with a treat. You'll make the treat part of the cue. You don't want to always have to have a treat to get him to move. ONLY reward with a treat AFTER he moves. Right after, one second after....Very important.) first in an area where he's not apt to value it so much and won't be apt to resource guard. Vary the rooms where you play this game of showing him a place to lie down or move and reinforcing with a good treat or some fun game or toy, or a walk! lol. If he likes walks and he moves to a spot you show him first, that can be a reward. If you are going to go on a walk anyhow, ask for something you want first, then go for the walk.

Please take Chagall'smom's advice and never ever use punishment or aggression against a dog that is showing aggression. It can escalate and become a real problem. This suppression of behaviors like this, by way of punishment is risky business. There is no such thing as you have to be the boss. Working with dogs in sync with how they operate is more effective. imo. Applied veterinary behaviorists will always advise treating this using positive reinforcement type methods. 

Chagallsmom gave you some great links to read. If you're ever in doubt or feel worried to mess with it, call in a certified, reputable behaviorist (not just any ole' trainer who thinks it's all about show 'em who's boss) to help. It may only take a couple sessions. I worked with dogs with this problem when I was in the field and it can be turned around. 

Teach leave it, give, placement cues (to move here, there, over here...reward lavishly. Make it a game.) Practice on different pieces of furniture or different areas in the house, different contexts too. You want the dog to generalize the behavior to all kinds of scenarios. Dogs don't generalize all that well at first. (until they get proficient at training)

I recommend you look into clicker training...operant and classical conditioning when training dogs. Look up Kiko pup videos. She's awesome. Read Culture Clash. That's awesome. There is so much out there on training dogs using sound, learning behavioral science, there's no need to struggle with dogs. Good luck. Keep us posted.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Your problem is not the dog getting on your bed, but rather that your dog doesn't consider you the leader. That is a big problem and you need to fix it very fast or you'll end him with a big problem on your hands.

I would find a trainer and start addressing the situation ASAP. This dog needs to know he's not the boss of you !

Don't hit the dog, it will make its aggression worse. When he takes you seriously, all you'll have to do is say " Off " and he'll be down before you can count to three. That's how dogs are supposed to respond to our commands.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

carley's mom said:


> get you a fly swat and get him off the bed ! You can't let him boss you around, it will only get worst.



wtf?!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If you swat or hit or yell and put your dog on the defensive, you're_ very _possibly going to see your dog swing his head around and bite you. Then you'll have a dog that develops a back chaining behavior. That is...that he'll anticipate getting physically or mentally hurt or nervous before you even get within reach of him. He'll start lunging at you when you are 6 feet away from the bed. Then he Will come off the bed, snarling and gnashing teeth on you as soon as you come into the room, then down the hall. If you have a soft dog, he may not do that. He may instead suppress the behavior until a later time. Or he may shut down some. It stands a chance of eroding the trust he has in you. Some dogs can take it. Some can't. But there's no way to predict what such treatment will do to any particular dog. It's not worth the risk. There are _all_ kinds of reasons why not to use these kinds of "techniques" on a dog. If he's not so soft, he may well do as I described above. I've seen it plenty. Never treat aggression with aggression. None. 

Again, I highly recommend you seek the help of a certified applied animal behaviorist or a trainer who knows behavior very well and uses PR methods, has some kind of credentials or comes highly recommended.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> Get you a fly swat and get him off the bed ! You can't let him boss you around, it will only get worst.


When I got him, it seemed that Tonka was used to sleeping on a bed. I had to chase him off with my own baseball cap fly-swatter. Twice I think did the trick. 

If the thought of biting me ever crossed his mind he didn't let it show. 
Smart dog!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I absolutely agree with CM and PB - trying to force him is likely to escalate the problem. Was he allowed to sleep on the bed in his previous home? Do you know if he was prone to resource guarding before you got him? I suspect that the bed has become very high value precisely because he is not allowed on it! 

I would second the advice to play lots of On/Off games, and meanwhile keep your bedroom door closed. If he gets up there despite your care I would go off and do something potentially very rewarding - get his supper ready, or play noisily with a toy in another room - so that he comes to investigate without you needing to make a big issue of it. I would play other anti-resource guarding games too - swapsies and Leave and all the rest.

I suspect from your post that you have found his growling upsetting and even frightening. Remember he is communicating with the narrow range of responses he has found to work in the past - a growl is not necessarily a sign of aggression, but more of a "leave me alone" or "I really don't like that, please stop it". Don't push him into needing to really shout his warning by snapping - just teach him that doing as you ask means good things happen. The ultimate reward might be to put a step by the bed and allow him on there with your permission, but that is probably quite a way down the road, when he has proved he can be polite about sharing it.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I did not read all the comments, but most. I think there are many ways of fixing this problem, and she should do what she feels comfortable with. 

I have had dogs all my life and I am 53 years old. I haven't raised many puppies as I prefer an adult dog. Most of my dogs came to me as strays, pound hounds, rescues, re-homes where most of the time I knew very little history about them. 

I have NEVER had a dog "turn around and bite me, never lung from 6ft away , snarling and gnashing of teeth", maybe I have been lucky... most of my dogs have been little guys with the exception of my spoos and Boxers. I can't imagine with all the love I give to my dogs that they would bite me over a swat on the behind because they refused to do what I asked of them... but to each his own. 

I am not advocating beating a dog, scaring him or anything of the sort. I just truly believe that a dog that has shown no issues until now is going to need much correction about getting off the bed. She has lost leadership in this relationship and she is not dealing with a Pitbull, but a poodle . IMHO this could be fixed quick and easily, but I could be wrong.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

He loves your bed. He has very likely been allowed on beds before. He has claimed your bed as his. He is guarding it from you. Close the door when you are not there. When you are there prohibit any attempt to use YOUR bed. Reward him when he accedes to your request to jump down. Make sure he is the LOWEST on the pecking order in your family. If he continues to be aggressively insubordinate have an experienced trainer help you out soon!!
Eric


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*charlieforever*: When I woke up this morning I recalled an earlier thread of yours in which you told us Charlie was reacting fearfully to your father. Don't recall the details, but perhaps it was with good reason as I *think* he may have been teased (inadvertently?) by your dad. Since you live with your parents, I wonder if Charlie is suddenly seeking safe haven on your bed because something in the household recently unsettled him? Anyway, you and Charlie are on my mind and I am wondering if you got to sleep peaceably in your bed last night and how you're feeling today about getting things under control. Hope all's well!

ETA Want to offer another info source for dealing with fearful dogs. http://fearfuldogs.com/


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I do agree with Chagall's mom as far as not swatting him but you can't let him boss you around either.

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Charlieforever...please just don't use aggression to treat aggression. Bottom line. Not the way savvy trainers and behaviorists handle dogs with these kinds of issues. I've worked with lots of dogs that aren't my own because that's what I did for a living. I've seen what I described and worse more than once. My own dogs have had stable temperaments, were raised carefully and probably could have withstood things that a not so well known dog can't without permanent damage. Your dog's history is shaky. 

He's already warned that he's intensely uncomfortable. He's not bossing you in the human's way of thinking of the word, "bossing." He's doing what dogs do...protect their resources...it's a survival thing, what they feel is _their _resource. 

We must be careful not to anthropomorphize and attribute _our_ values and morals to dogs. They do not share those with us. They have their own set, being animals. We must instead work in accordance to the way dogs work and operate. This is the ultimate _culture clash_. Humans against dogs. It does not have to be you against your dog. Your dog can learn to behave the way you'd like by using *proven* methods that do *not* involve force, pain or coercion, startling or bewilderment. These things tend to put a dog on the defensive and that is not a good place to put a dog regardless of those who think that dogs think just the way humans think. This kind of treatment of dogs stands to erode trust...especially in an already fearful dog. 

PR (positive reinforcement) type methods, turning the bad thing into a good thing by using games and reinforcement are PROVEN to turn bad behavior around. It goes on over and over again in the world of dog training, real dog training. There _are_ better ways than going backwards decades in dog training. Get yourself some professional help from a real dog trainer or behaviorist, not someone who thinks you have to get in a power struggle with your dog. You do not.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I've used treats to teach Archie to stay off of certain things. It is true that if you always just lure off with a treat, he may at first start jumping on the bed (well, in our case it's the kitchen chairs, but you know) so he can be told to get off of it. What I do is I use the treat to lure him off when he's on it, AND I reward him for times when he's near the bed but leaves it alone. Any time that he looks at the bed but doesn't move to get on it, he gets a treat. If he looks at the bed and then chooses to lie somewhere else in the room, he gets lots of treats or an especially tasty chew. You should also practice the "off" command in lots of other contexts, where he can also be allowed to get up first to practice. That way he starts to see it as similar to "sit" or any other thing you've taught him to do.

The thing you definitely don't want to do, as someone else mentioned, is lure him off with a treat or a leash or any other nice thing, and then not follow through on the reward. That will just make him assume he did something wrong by getting off the bed.

Obviously there are lots of ways to train this kind of thing, but I wanted to counter the notion that rewarding him for getting off the bed would reinforce getting on the bed. It doesn't have to be that way. 

There are different training philosophies out there and they pretty much all work, but personally I like to think about competing rewards (bed vs crate, for example - right now one is much more desirable than the other and you have to shift that balance) and encouraging my dog to make good choices, rather than worrying about who's the leader. I find that if my dog consistently sees that listening to me leads to good things, and not listening to me leads to less desirable things, he'll choose to trust and follow me even when the rewards aren't necessarily apparent. So I just worry about making good decisions more attractive than bad decisions and establishing habits from there.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Some great points Lisagirl. Yeah, don't worry too much about what you're rewarding. The main thing is to make a positive association with whatever is going on...when it's something he doesn't love or is fearful of losing. Show him that good things happen when stuff is going on around the bed.

Another thing I might add is to be sure to give an alternative to the bed. You could put a very comfy bed on the floor near your bed and show him that. Reinforce with a treat. I would prevent him the best you can for now from getting on your bed. Whenever he gets on his own bed, reinforce...bring him something good when he's already on it. Show him that you're not a threat to his bed...but that having you come near is actually a good thing. You bring Porterhouse steak. You can play the game to move off and onto another rug or mat and reinforce, then back to his bed. Be silly, wiggle a rope toy, squeaky toy, use your playful, silly voice. Let him know you're playing...that there's nothing to worry about. Try this a couple reps a few times a day. If you put a leash on him, make sure that doesn't worry him...feed while you snap on the leash or handle him near his neck/collar. Associate those things with good things. I'd still get a behaviorist too though.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Is a behaviorist really necessary for a little growling? I would think you'd wait until you were sure you had a serious problem. Then again, I've never found growling on its own to be a huge danger sign - you should respect it, so the dog doesn't resort to something more drastic to communicate discomfort, but it's just communication the way whining would be to me. Of course growling *with* other more threatening signs is a concern.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A behaviorist or trainer needed? Maybe not Lisagirl. But unless the OP reads up on some proper methods of dealing with this, but instead handles it incorrectly, it may escalate to biting fast. It's much easier to deal with problems before they escalate, jmo. I think an experienced and savvy owner/trainer should be able to turn this around. A new dog owner that perhaps is questioning how to deal with this might benefit from a session or two from someone to get them started on a protocol. Or maybe reading fast and implementing a sound plan would suffice.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

charlieforever, i see several issues here. one, charlie is 4.5 years old but has only been with you since may. yet you say he "knows" he is not supposed to be on the bed. how did he acquire that knowledge?

two, knowing and doing are two different things. people in despair about dogs soiling indoors wail about how "s/he knows s/he is not supposed to do that, that's why s/he looks so guilty." but it's commonly accepted among trainers that dogs don't feel guilt, so if they "know," their definition of know is far different from ours. trainers will tell you the reason the dog looks "guilty" is actually because it's responding to the owner's unhappiness at the moment and it is generally clueless as to why the owner is unhappy.

three, think of all those owners (most here, if i am to judge from among those who have discussed the issue) who find themselves totally unsuccessful with regard to stopping their dogs from countersurfing. no reward for the dog is greater than the rewards that countersurfing may bring. so the "solution" is prevention - keep those counters clean. in this case, i would have to say the immediate solution re charlie is keep the bedroom door closed. 

four, your real problem is that charlie is not responding well to your command to get off the bed - though you haven't said what the command is and how it's delivered. a light swat on the butt is not devastating to the relationship if you're sure of the relationship - i suspect many of us routinely use arms and legs to block and push our dogs away from, say, our computers or to scoot a dog away from a spot on a couch we would like to occupy. but when that happens, we are pretty sure of our dogs and our relationship and that no offense is meant or taken. doesn't sound that way with you and charlie. so i would say your relationship needs to be worked on. are you doing any training/obedience work with him? that could help a lot to get him to realize that obeying you is a good thing. a good trainer will be training both of you with regard to how to act toward one another. even if you are an experienced dog owner, you and the dog are both individuals and may need to learn what is required to live with each other successfully.

i suppose i am saying don't make the bed an issue for the moment. a better foundation for the relationship needs to be laid first. and even if it is, it is not necessarily a failed relationship if you still have to keep the door closed for the foreseeable future to keep charlie off the bed. i'm pretty convinced my own dog (the clever, female one) got up on the "good" couch when i wasn't around. she probably figured what i didn't know wouldn't hurt me - and i probably figured the same. if i thought otherwise, i would have kept her out of the living room.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I agree with Carley's Mom a swat on the butt won't kill then and it does get their attention. My girls since I have 2 (not when I had one) bark like crazy when people come or go to leave. I swatted them on the butt 2 times, now I just pick up the fly swatter and say no bark and point it at them and it stops. It is pink, they may never like pink again.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I just want to say, I HAVE NEVER HIT A DOG WITH A FLY SWAT! But I would, if my dog was doing this. From the question asked, it seemed to me that she was a bit afraid of the dog because of the growling. She had let the dog win and he was on the bed... I just quickly thought of what I would have done if I had been where she was and that is what I would have done. 

There are lots of things that can fix this issue, IMHO a fly swat would work and work quickly, I don't think it would cause any harm to the dog either. A spray of water could do the trick as well...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> I just want to say, I HAVE NEVER HIT A DOG WITH A FLY SWAT! But I would, if my dog was doing this. From the question asked, it seemed to me that she was a bit afraid of the dog because of the growling. She had let the dog win and he was on the bed... I just quickly thought of what I would have done if I had been where she was and that is what I would have done.
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of things that can fix this issue, IMHO a fly swat would work and work quickly, I don't think it would cause any harm to the dog either. A spray of water could do the trick as well...



I repeat WTF.

Instead of the mindset of "how can I correct or punish my dog" try a mindset of "what can I reward or reinforce". 

Patk I think hit upon a very important point - yes, when a trusting relationship and bond has been fixed, we can get away with a stern voice, an uh-uh, or a little push out of the way, but anything intended to inflict pain or discomfort especially during the establishment of your relationship with your dog is a recipe for disaster.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

There is some history with this dog that Chagall's Mom mentioned, and in part because of that and mostly because positive is a good way to train, imho using punishment-based treatment with Charlie may be a dangerous plan for his well-being as well as that of his owner. What Patk said about building a trusting relationship is so important and this owner has unfortunately had a challenging time with that from the beginning.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I repeat WTF.


Repeat it one more time and you'll be reported.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I've been watching this discussion and now that I am reminded of (and looked back at) the earlier posts about Charlie and the OP's dad I am wondering how has that situation progressed. If that situation is not better then you really should get a behaviorist to work with you, Charlie and the other members of your household, especially your dad to get a coherent plan in place to fix these problems before you end up thinking it is time for Charlie to be rehomed yet again.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Repeat it one more time and you'll be reported.



WTF do you think you are?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

streetcar and lily, yes, now that you remind me, i do recall the op's earlier thread about her father and her dog and expressing concern that fear aggression could end up being a problem. so now the bed/bedroom comes into focus as a more serious issue, since the bedroom became charlie's refuge. i agree that if the problem with dad has not been fixed, that will make it even harder for the op to build a relationship of trust with charlie. i hope "dad" has reformed.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My sister is a dog trainer, I called her and asked her what should be done about the dog on the bed... she said, to work with treats. Get him down with a treat, then close the bedroom off to him and start training him to get down in another area, the sofa perhaps. If he is allowed on the sofa, train him to get down with a treat, but he is welcome to get back on as well. 

She agreed with a dog that shows aggression, you don't want to get aggressive with him at all. She also said, I am lucky I have never had an aggressive dog...lol 

I'm big enough to say when I am wrong. But she also loves to train dogs. I don't. I hate teaching tricks ect. I just want to love on them and live with them. The only training I require is how to live in my home without causing any trouble.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> My sister is a dog trainer, I called her and asked her what should be done about the dog on the bed... she said, to work with treats. Get him down with a treat, then close the bedroom off to him and start training him to get down in another area, the sofa perhaps. If he is allowed on the sofa, train him to get down with a treat, but he is welcome to get back on as well.
> 
> She agreed with a dog that shows aggression, you don't want to get aggressive with him at all. She also said, I am lucky I have never had an aggressive dog...lol
> 
> *I'm big enough to say when I am wrong.* But she also loves to train dogs. I don't. I hate teaching tricks ect. I just want to love on them and live with them. The only training I require is how to live in my home without causing any trouble.


*Good on you woman!* :adore:I knew your heart was in the right place all along. :thumb: (Not to mention your sister makes me sound like I knew what I was talking about! Who knew?!)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> My sister is a dog trainer, I called her and asked her what should be done about the dog on the bed... she said, to work with treats. Get him down with a treat, then close the bedroom off to him and start training him to get down in another area, the sofa perhaps. If he is allowed on the sofa, train him to get down with a treat, but he is welcome to get back on as well.
> 
> She agreed with a dog that shows aggression, you don't want to get aggressive with him at all. She also said, I am lucky I have never had an aggressive dog...lol
> 
> I'm big enough to say when I am wrong. But she also loves to train dogs. I don't. I hate teaching tricks ect. I just want to love on them and live with them. The only training I require is how to live in my home without causing any trouble.


I think this is great that you believed your sister. You certainly were not about to believe me, even though I've been saying the same thing for a very long time here now. LOL. I've also indicated that I am a retired trainer...specialized in aggression issues among other behavior problems, that I did this for a living for some years. But you stuck your fingers in your ears until now. 

Show my posts to your sister and see what she says if you can't recognize the similarity. For someone who doesn't know behavior, doesn't like to train, I would ask that you consider not giving training advice on the Internet. (And that goes for anyone else who is not experienced or knowledgeable about dog behavior and training) It can create dangerous consequences. Your advice to hit dogs is _not_ appreciated by people who know how to handle aggression issues in dogs. 

So it looks like your sister got through to you. I hope it has a lasting effect. I wonder if it will rub off on_ other _people who think hitting a dog has a place in dog training. (It most certainly does not) 

Thank you for sharing this revelation and your willingness to concede that there are trainers who know dog behavior, and that perhaps those who do not, including yourself might take another look... even if it's only your sister you trust. I don't much care who you believe, just as long as you stop advising people to hit their dogs. _Very _much appreciated. Click/treat.:adore:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> My sister is a dog trainer, I called her and asked her what should be done about the dog on the bed... she said, to work with treats. Get him down with a treat, then close the bedroom off to him and start training him to get down in another area, the sofa perhaps. If he is allowed on the sofa, train him to get down with a treat, but he is welcome to get back on as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It took a lot of character to write that, I applaud you


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes, and gumption. :alberteinstein: :congrats:


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I wonder if the OP is even reading this discussion. There had been some good ideas presented here and I hope she is reading them even if she is not acknowledging the responses.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I wondered about that too quite a ways back. Nice of the op to go poof into cyberspace without acknowledging. Don't you just love that?


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I wondered about that too quite a ways back. Nice of the op to go poof into cyberspace without acknowledging. Don't you just love that?


It's always nice to see a poster acknowledging those who are trying to help. Even if they don't want to take the advice given out, it's still a nice thing to do. Who knows, maybe OP will be back. It IS the weekend, you know. :aetsch:

BTW, Happy Grandparent's Day to all of the grandparents out there!!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

In case you were referring to me I am still here and read all the post, some I agree with some I do not. No here to agree or disagree.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled, inevitable I considered that you and others could be correct is why I called my sister. It does help to talk to someone v/s reading a comment to understand more about a subject. It seems to me that you are taking this very personal... to be honest, I did not read all of your comments, you go a little long for my attention span sometimes. Sorry if I upset you, it was not my intention to do so.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> I have NEVER had a dog "turn around and bite me, never lung from 6ft away , snarling and gnashing of teeth", maybe I have been lucky... most of my dogs have been little guys with the exception of my spoos and Boxers. I can't imagine with all the love I give to my dogs that they would bite me over a swat on the behind because they refused to do what I asked of them... but to each his own.


Here it looks like you must have read one of my posts anyhow. Yes, I tend to put in a lot of detail sometimes and it can make my posts long. But some on _this_ thread aren't very long. Anyhow, I take it a bit personally because I feel that when one posts on a thread, one ought to read the posts before or it can come out looking like you are doing this: 

I'm glad you got the poop on the scoop from your sister.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> I wonder if the OP is even reading this discussion. There had been some good ideas presented here and I hope she is reading them even if she is not acknowledging the responses.



I think that when the in-fighting begins, as it almost inevitably does on these training issues, newbies might be put off joining in the discussions, but hopefully they are wise enough to understand that that is how it goes in these internet groups, and are still able to pluck out the good advice offered within the squabbles.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Since the op doesn't seem to mind that the tread has taken a side road, I just want to say something. (don't I always?) Carley'smom, you mentioned you don't like to train. My thinking is that every time we interact with our dogs, we're training them. Operant behavior exists at all times whether we are conscious of it or not. "Operant," meaning, _do this and this happens. You do that and this other thing happens. _Everything your dog does_ is_ a behavior and every behavior has a consequence. Your dog's whole world is cause and effect. It's a perfect opportunity to help make the consequences meaningful, effective and humane. That's training.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Debating, having differing opinions, even strongly stating opinions is _NOT_ fighting. Swearing or attacking someone's very character IS. jmo.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My dogs are very easy to live with. They do what I say, but I don't ask a lot from them. So yes, we do train all the time. I just don't run around with a pocket full of treats, they don't do tricks , nor do I want them too... Look at this, we agree !!! (smiles)

I am taking Stella and heading to watch my grandson play ball now. Have a great day.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> I wonder if the OP is even reading this discussion. There had been some good ideas presented here and I hope she is reading them even if she is not acknowledging the responses.


good point, minipoo. i just checked and she hasn't been back to this thread since the 10th. i hope things are going well for her and for charlie. imo it's not a matter of her valuing or not valuing anyone's "advice;" being able to keep her dog and not have to rehome him (again) is the real issue.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk said:


> good point, minipoo. i just checked and she hasn't been back to this thread since the 10th. i hope things are going well for her and for charlie. imo it's not a matter of her valuing or not valuing anyone's "advice;" being able to keep her dog and not have to rehome him (again) is the real issue.



Yes I checked that too. The 10th is the day she started the thread. I hope she has looked without logging in and thought about trying some of the positive methods suggested and that she will come back and let us know what is happening, not only with the dog on the bed, but with her dad.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Carley's Mom--I'm like you re: just wanting a nice dog to live with. However, I noticed that when I did start teaching her obedience commands, she became easier to live with! I don't want to teach her any fancy tricks (not my cup of tea), but stimulating her mind with the basics--sit, down, come, stay, heel, wait for food, etc.--has been very helpful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

zooeysmom said:


> Carley's Mom--I'm like you re: just wanting a nice dog to live with. However, I noticed that when I did start teaching her obedience commands, she became easier to live with! I don't want to teach her any fancy tricks (not my cup of tea), but stimulating her mind with the basics--sit, down, come, stay, heel, wait for food, etc.--has been very helpful.


While all of my dogs do "work" for a living in various ways, they are our house companions first and foremost. But like human children they aren't meant to raise themselves and there do have to be behavioral norms for everyone to meet (people included). I expect everyone to show up when I call them, to sit and the like when I tell them, not to pester each other needlessly, walk politely when we are out in public and to be nice at the vet. In return I promise to pay for good behavior with pets, ball play or treats. I also promise not to penalize you for something when you have no way to know why I am upset. Every interaction with them is an opportunity to train and to refine my relationship with them. I think if every dog in the world got treated that way, there would be a lot less euthanasia and rehoming going on.

Back to the OP's issues though when you do have a rehomed dog all of those things can be harder to achieve. I hope she can get there with Charlie.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The sound advice...even getting one on one professional help_ IS_ what will reduce the odds of having to re-home the dog again. I hope the OP, the OP's family AND most of all, the dog will be able to live together harmoniously by implementing effective training interactions.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Usually a rehomed dog has issues, which is probably the reason they were rehomed. They can take a lot of work and in a household with a lot of family members of various ages, it is hard to consistently address those issues. Thus the dog might get rehomed again. We took in a dog from the humane society and she was a fear biter who we did end up keeping but she was a hard dog to train and make sure everyone was safe around her. She did mellow with age which was helpful.

High energy dogs you have as puppies also require a lot of training so that they know what to do with that energy. That is why we take our dogs to classes at least the first year or two to help us give them that training. I am also a bit of a lazy trainer. So the classes give me motivation and structure and just good ideas on how the training can help all my dogs get along.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Most all of my dogs have been someone else's problem dog... I love my dogs madly and they know it. I am consistent with them and what I expect from them. I have only re-homed one dog in my life and it was due to moving in with my in laws that would have made him live outside and I gave him to a close friend, rather than put him thought something like that.

My dogs know all the commands sit, stay , come ect. But what I really work on is things like, don't beg when we are eating, don't jump on people, hush when I don't want you to bark ect. Just last week we had company and one of the women did not like dogs, Carley kept coming up to her to be petted. I simply said, just as if I were talking to anyone else in the room, " She don't want you, go lay down." She went and got a bone and did what I told her. I thought nothing of it, but everyone commented on how well behaved my dogs are. I did not use a command voice, she did not get a treat for moving . Just went. That is the kind of dog I want to live with and I have two of them.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

training is not always formal, carley's mom. sometimes it's talking to your dogs a lot and interacting with them constantly, making them such an integral part of your life that they can actually anticipate and understand what you want. i believe more of us need to be involved in or make a conscious effort at more training because we don't spend as much time with our dogs as we used to. people are not at home as much, so the lives of dogs that live with people have also changed. imo, for many people, dogs help make their lives whole, but for many dogs today, the relationship is wanting.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Carley's Mom that is all training, like with children, the constant give and take interactions shape a dynamic and evolving relationship. I consider every bit of time I spend with one, two or all three of my resident dogs to have a life lesson in it even if only as simple as come relax with me because we trust each other.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

That rings true with me. I am with my dogs all the time. I take them with me whenever I can if I go somewhere, they are not left home when we vacation or even take a day trip. They do know what I want and we do understand each other. 

I guess from watching my sister, I never thought of that as " training". She would have a word for her dogs that meant go to your bed. When her company came she would have used her command "word" and they would have gone to their bed. I did not care where Carley went, just go away from that woman... She don't love her dogs like I do either, she can give one away like it's nothing and she does. She shows dogs and breeds them. I just can't understand her way of thinking. She is good to her dogs and she makes sure that they go to a good home, don't think for a moment that she doesn't. But we are very different when it comes to our dogs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I know someone who is a very excellent obedience handler (OTCh dogs in her life). She recently gave away a dog that had gotten perfect scores in one class because she NQ in the next class once. Not my style either. I am very grateful that my puppy has fit into our family as easily as he has. I love him and think he will be a spectacular dog, but would never have kept him if I thought Lily or Peeves was really suffering over him being here.

If more people were thoughtful about integrating training into all aspects of life in an integrated way as you do with yours then all dogs would be better off. As long as your dogs give you the level of behavior that satisfies you and lets them be out in the world safely then you have trained your perfect dog. Training isn't a dirty word and it doesn't have to take more than 30 seconds to work in something really important. I think many people resist the idea of training because they think they have to schedule it like going to the gym.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

All my dogs, from way back up through time and now, once they got over the difficult puppy stage have been a joy to live with...well behaved, compliant, easy going and always a tight bond we've shared with one another. Some have been more advanced in their training than others. But all have been lovely dogs to live with. The difference is, I didn't ever feel a need to hit my dogs to get them to be that way. And that is because I learned how to interact (we won't call it training) with my dogs to get what I want out of them by using methods which do not involve domination or force over them, which is something dogs just don't understand and can cause some fall-out for them. It's just confusing to them. I didn't always train with zero force or punishment (never struck a dog though) because way back when, that was all there was around. But when I started hearing about other ways to train, I pricked up my ears and changed my methods. I'm still a work in progress in fact. And found out it works loads better to use PR methods. More fun, more effective, the dogs understand it better AND they learn better, faster, get smarter because they have to think...not have everything forced on them.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> That rings true with me. I am with my dogs all the time. I take them with me whenever I can if I go somewhere, they are not left home when we vacation or even take a day trip. They do know what I want and we do understand each other.
> 
> I guess from watching my sister, I never thought of that as " training". She would have a word for her dogs that meant go to your bed. When her company came she would have used her command "word" and they would have gone to their bed. I did not care where Carley went, just go away from that woman... She don't love her dogs like I do either, she can give one away like it's nothing and she does. She shows dogs and breeds them. I just can't understand her way of thinking. She is good to her dogs and she makes sure that they go to a good home, don't think for a moment that she doesn't. But we are very different when it comes to our dogs.


It isn't my way either. Once I have a dog, it's my family for life. (I do understand there are situations where a dog is better off being rehomed or the family is) However, there are definitely people like your sister who are really in it for showing, breeding and they just _can't_ keep some dogs that don't fit their program or they'll wind up with too many. We need people like that though, to be stewards of our breeds...(if they're good breeders). They may not feel _as _attached. _Maybe they force themselves not to get so very attached, though I'm sure they're very fond of their dogs. BUT...I would _much rather see a dog treated the way your sister does by _teaching_ the dog... and re-homed than seeing or hearing about a dog getting the crap beaten out of him or even being struck. I know darn well a dog will adapt well to a new home most all the time. 

So I'm hoping you and others who go in for corporal punishment to dogs (who don't understand why they're being attacked) will learn new ways of dealing with undesirable behavior because there ARE wonderful ways to fix behavior problems that don't involve physical or emotional hurt. It's done ALL the time these days because science and experience tells us what dogs do best on. 

I do recognize that you have turned a corner in accepting what your sister told you about handling aggressive dogs. That is good. :adore: I hope you and other people, possibly lurkers sitting on the fence, will take an interest in other, more humane methods of interacting with and handling dogs.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

advice
or i'm not a sonnet doggone it

if i were advice that could walk off the page
i’d remake the world to fit my own image
i could browbeat and cudgel to take out my rage
what a star i would be on my self-made stage

but i’m just advice without life or much worth
i have to be heeded for meaning on earth
if a tree falls and no one hears is there sound
if advice falls on deaf ears does it redound

being advice is a rotten thankless task
people don’t listen but they never fail to ask
why should i be taken with a grain of salt
if people get me wrong how is that my fault

oh how i long to be advice well heard and well heeded
instead of advice that is cast aside as unneeded 
©patk

​


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Carley's Mom I am just like you, I have no interest in training any tricks just normal manners and doing as I ask. Mine go everywhere with me, and there is nothing nicer than hearing people say, I have never seen a dog trained so well. My dogs go everywhere with me, in the summer (unless to hot) to dinner at outside restaurants. There blank goes on the ground, or if casual pick nick bench, they lay there and will sit or lay for a couple of hours. The waiters being water and most pet them, I am thinking ( some of the people may not like that). Depending on the client they actually go on appointments with me, and love riding in the car set, many of my older clientele say bring the girls. They have a good life, but they must listen when I speak to them.


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