# Ibd



## Margotsmom (Jun 6, 2010)

Wow - that was a lot for the poor dog to come home with! I have had Giardia in my "herd" and it was a bear to eliminate. Of course I had 8 dogs. So I feel your pain there. As to IBD I do have a dog with this (or thought to be as I believe technically it can only be truly diagnosed by scoping the dog), anyway she is not a Spoo she is a Chinese Crested. She would do fine for a while and then about every six months to a year would come up symptomatic. About 4 years ago someone suggested Canine Comfort, which is basically a pre/probiotic. But she has had no further problems since I put her on this, regardless of some food changes. Hope you are able to get your kiddo on a routine that controls the symptoms.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Thank you, I hope so as well. Besides pouring bloody diarreah, I could tell there was something wrong my eight week old baby. He just wanted to sleep and lay, no interest in playing. My husband and I actually bought a house in july, and since we moved in we really havent had too many problems. We live out in the country, and the previous owners had no animals, which was a plus. I was told he was going to be on steriods his whole life, but those will kill him before the disease, so I just keep them just in case. Does anyone know if this disorder is genetic? My vet really couldnt seem to tell me. Unfortunatly, where I have taken him to vet has several doctors so I get a diffrent one each time. Funny though, they all know Jack. But, considering he was at the vet two and three times a month up until ten months old, I guess they would all know him. An $800.00 "show puppy" became a $3,000 one that couldnt be shown because he was sick all the time.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

btdt that with my aussie. he did well on nutro 

no treats unless very basic high quality. low ingredient treats,. 

avoid allergy triggres- unless your going raw. 

My bst sucess was going raw. my guy can eat anything raw... that kibble wise hed never been able to handle


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

oh PS_ 

steriod free for 8 years. No flare ups since hes been on raw- unless he gets into something


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

IBD is a complicated disease some say its genetic some say its due to stress on the immune system and so on.

Hope he stays in remission and has a great life. 
But speaking as a person who knows how it feels I would put the dog to sleep.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

I grew up with my parents owning a kennel, and I have had a lot of dogs who died of old age, and have had to put a lot of dogs to sleep. But, as long as he doesnt have any more flair ups, I see no reason to put him down. He lives a very full life, and needs no daily medication, and is not in pain, so there is no reason to put him down. If when he gets older he starts having problems, then that is an option we will have to consider if he is in daily pain. He is a wonderful dog and companion, he is a very speical boy. 
I have never thought of puting him on a raw diet. He doesnt have any allergies ( thank goodness!) that I know of. I havent put him at any risk with food, as I have tried to feed him allergy formulas. My last poodle had horrible allergies. I dont know much about a raw diet.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Gailforce - it would be worth it to do some research on a raw diet. But, if what you are feeding now isn't causing any issues, I wouldn't worry too much.

Dog Food Forum This is a good forum to learn about raw feeding, and food in general.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear about Jack's tummy troubles. I've known a couple of people who had dogs with IBD, and it seemed the key was figuring out what food they did well on. Helen King's Isabella does best on a vegan kibble. A friend's mix did best on a home-cooked diet of mashed potato and ground beef. They also found that she benefited from Cipro. 

It may be that as time passes, Jack will continue to recover from the GI insults of the worms and giardia he experienced as a puppy. IBD can have an autoimmune component, so I would be especially careful about not overvaccinating him. And I don't want to frighten you, but Addison's Disease is a problem in spoos, and can sometimes show up as chronic GI problems. It might be helpful to rule out AD.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

I hope his GI issues arent another disease. I will have to do some research to see. He is such a great boy, I would hate to lose him. I would love to someday get another poodle, but I think this is a good lesson to me to really research my breeders first. Unfortunalty. I found Jacks breeder on AKC's website, and he seemed very knowledgable and did all these health checks, and showed his poodles, and pretented to know what he was doing, so I felt I was in good hands. But, when I tried to contact him about Jack's health issues, he ignored my emails, and had no repsonse. I have not heard from him since a week after I brought Jack home, and I have tried to contact him countless times. Bad breeder.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Sorry about the sad advise its just my opinion since I suffer from IBD and although my tummy is acting nice the rest of my body is-int and I know more people with IBD who are like that.

We get bad joint pains, fatigue and so on.

Is your god seeing a GI vet specialist if they are available ?
I would think that he would have to take some kind of meds to keep everything under control although he is not flaring at the moment.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i also forgot to mention that i put my guy on Peterna when it first came out with good results. I felt it helped him with nutrition and digestion when his stomach was the worst (he was about 6 months of age at the time) 

thankfully long lasting he's good- he doesn't have flare ups unless he gets something he shouldn't- and can even handle the occasional treat that isn't 'his' treats. 

The good news is IBD is 'known' now- 13 years ago- it was NOT. i was sitting in the Vet hospital/university and they all went "I dunno"


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Jack is not seeing a specialist. Excuse my ignorance,but I didnt even know there were doggy specialists for GI issues. I have been relying on my regular vet, which I have not been thrilled with. I work at petsmart grooming dogs, and we have an in-store vet called banfield, and I have a wellness plan( a form a insurance) through them which really cuts down on the bill. It took three of their vets before one of them finally gave him a diagnosis.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Gailforce said:


> Jack is not seeing a specialist. Excuse my ignorance,but I didnt even know there were doggy specialists for GI issues. I have been relying on my regular vet, which I have not been thrilled with. I work at petsmart grooming dogs, and we have an in-store vet called banfield, and I have a wellness plan( a form a insurance) through them which really cuts down on the bill. It took three of their vets before one of them finally gave him a diagnosis.


JMO, Banfield is terrible. I can't tell you how many times I have heard people say they had a bad experience with Banfield. I would look for a new vet. I would consider a GI specialist or Holistic vet if possible. If neither of those options are possible, I would still look for a different vet.


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## Margotsmom (Jun 6, 2010)

My IBD dog shows no signs of joint issues or any other problems. She is very active. Up until a store recommended the pre/probiotic she had been taken to several vets in several states. Including two in my current state. There is some thought that it is based in allergy, which would make sense that finding a food that does not irritate the system helps. One of the vets told me not to feed her chicken as it is one of the most common allergens, the other vet told me that unless I had seen her react to chicken there was no reason not to feed her chicken. She since has gotten chicken with no adverse affect. Unless something is very obvious, the medical folk are just making educated guesses as to what is going on. It is unfortunate you dealt with a breeder who apparently doesn't care. It is a good point that your dog is coming off quite a few assaults to its body. So hopefully in time you can get him to as healthy a state as possible. Keep an eye on him, but I wouldn't go looking for problems he doesn't have. I believe there is a Poodle Health registry, and it might be worth seeing info on his line of breeding, and to put up the info on your dog so others know. I am speaking as a newbie there, perhaps others who know more about that can help in that regard.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

I started Jack on Authority lamb and rice as a baby puppy, and then switched him to Blue Buffalo. Blue did wonders for his coat, but he was having bowel movements way way too frequently,and he was not putting on any weight. I switched him at about nine months to Nutro lamb and oatmeal, and so far so good. He likes it, and he weighs about 50 pounds now at 14 months. Also, the vet told me he had an immune disorder. Alot of my co-workers dont like Nutro, but I have had great success with it.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Gailforce said:


> the vet told me he had an immune disorder.


IBD is an immune disorder


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I skimmed this.... this is how our story went

Suri was not diagnosed but we think she has IBD or IBS - she had bad flare ups weekly for a good 6 months. I used a handful of different high quality low and no grain kibble and some would help for a while and then after a couple weeks - another flare up. She was also on probiotics daily. 

I went to raw feeding early this year and Suri has not had one flare up. This may or may not be for every dog, but it changed her life for the better and we couldn't be happier - she did put on a lot of weight and we have been feeding her less but the results were amazing. She was never on any drugs for her stomach.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

What is the cost of a raw diet? How is a raw diet made up?


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Its similar in costs to your good quality kibble.

I average about .75 a lb per dog. Suri and Olie eat about a lb a day.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

Winnow said:


> IBD is a complicated disease some say its genetic some say its due to stress on the immune system and so on.
> 
> Hope he stays in remission and has a great life.
> But speaking as a person who knows how it feels I would put the dog to sleep.


I tend to agree with Winnow (also as someone with IBD). I would definitely give my poodle a chance to achieve remission through diet therapy and medication, but at some point I think it would be kinder to put the dog to sleep. (Haven't read through all the replies - I'm glad to know some dogs are doing so well). I just want owners to realize that it feels worse than a simple "upset tummy".

I also hope they are tracking the parentage of these dogs as there is increasing evidence that IBD (at least in humans) has genetic components. I would not breed a dog who has this, and would not buy a puppy from one either.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

1Jurisdiva said:


> I tend to agree with Winnow (also as someone with IBD). I would definitely give my poodle a chance to achieve remission through diet therapy and medication, but at some point I think it would be kinder to put the dog to sleep. (Haven't read through all the replies - I'm glad to know some dogs are doing so well). I just want owners to realize that it feels worse than a simple "upset tummy".
> 
> I also hope they are tracking the parentage of these dogs as there is increasing evidence that IBD (at least in humans) has genetic components. I would not breed a dog who has this, and would not buy a puppy from one either.


Of course I would give it a change to get into remission but I would not want that remission to be because of steroids.

If my dog would be dx with IBD today I would not put it to sleep tomorrow but I would not let it suffer for to long. 
Believe me you do SUFFER with IBD there is no way around it


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Winnow : ((, I am so sorry to hear that you suffer so much - it is just terrible that with all of those medical advances doctors and scientists are not able to find better treatments for auto-immune disorders if not a cure : ((((.

As far as I was informed, Crohn's is auto-immune and IBD can have many separate causes of which auto-immune is the rarest. The newest research actually points to surprising good results of patients getting complete control of IBD after the course of antibiotics and also using anti-depressants :dontknow:


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> Winnow : ((, I am so sorry to hear that you suffer so much - it is just terrible that with all of those medical advances doctors and scientists are not able to find better treatments for auto-immune disorders if not a cure : ((((.
> 
> As far as I was informed, Crohn's is auto-immune and IBD can have many separate causes of which auto-immune is the rarest. The newest research actually points to surprising good results of patients getting complete control of IBD after the course of antibiotics and also using anti-depressants :dontknow:


Thank you wishpoo

Stress is a big factor with IBD and I would think that it helps to be relaxed in a calm environment.

I don't know that much about IBD in dogs but guessing it is the same as in us humans then it does not always end there.
lots of IBD people develop other kinds of AI diseases, I have at least two more.

SO please don't take this the wrong way if you own a dog with IBD.
I am just trying to give you an insight into there lives.
Since most dogs do not show signs of begin in pain until they are in umber able pain.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Since most dogs do not show signs of begin in pain until they are in umber able pain.


This is true : (((


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Im sorry to disagree, but Jack is showing NO signs of pain, he runs, jumps, plays, and is full of endless energy. If he were in dibilitating pain, yes I would mercifully put him down, but what a waste of a life to just put him to sleep because I "think" he is in a lot of pain. He has not had a flair up in five months, and that is because he was put on the food he is on now,and we moved out of town where he was no longer exposed to other dogs disease. As long as we can keep him flair up and pain free, why put such a wonderful dog down? It would be a waste. He is also on NO medication. I have family members who suffer with IBD, and Crohns, so I see first hand how these affect their daily life. But, I also live with a now very healthy dog, who very well may not have another flair up in his life. Im very sensible when it comes to my animals, I would never let an animal suffer. And he is NOT suffering.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

I don't think either Winnow or I meant to imply that you should put Jack down! I'm glad he is doing so well, and hope he remains in remission and is happy and healthy for the rest of his life.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

1Jurisdiva said:


> I don't think either Winnow or I meant to imply that you should put Jack down! I'm glad he is doing so well, and hope he remains in remission and is happy and healthy for the rest of his life.


No need to put him down if he is doing so well. Just telling how IBD life is like. No disrespect


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Sorry, he is just my baby, and Im a very over-protective mom


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I found this article interesting too !!!

Had no idea that dogs can have Celiac disease also :scared:
.http://www.ehow.com/about_5117452_signs-symptoms-celiac-disease-dogs.html

Could be a culprit for many dogs that do not tolerate grain based food :rolffleyes: : ((( 

IBD article :Inflammatory Bowel Disease (IBD) in Dogs

PS: *Winnow* - sorry for the confusion - I thought that IBD mentioned for Jack was standing for *I*rritable *B*owel *D*isease :doh: OF COURSE that "Inflammatory" type is absolutely of auto-immune origin !!!


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## Margotsmom (Jun 6, 2010)

We don't even know that the dog has IBD, it is a presumptive diagnosis of a 10 month old dog who had gone through a superload of issues. I think making any suggestion of putting the dog down, despite your own condition, was a bit over the top. The article confirms IBD can only be truly diagnosed by scoping the dog. I suspect this poor dog was very ill, and if it had any good bacteria in its body they were all killed by the various treatments to get the other ills under control. I would definitely be doing everything I could to support this dogs immune system including pre and probitoics to get those good bacteria counts up. Don't overdo those, but definitely get them going. Also, consider finding a holistic vet who will consider all avenues of treatment.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Also, consider finding a holistic vet who will consider all avenues of treatment.


I support this 100% !!!!!!!

I personally found more help from holistic and/or alternative methods for all of my health problems than from conventional medicine and I did not have "simple cases" by no means !!!!! 

Spontaneous and complete remissions are possible with ANY condition, this or that way, (including cancer) and one always have to keep that in mind .One just has to look for help and try many different things before "throwing the towel in the corner".


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Chronic diarrhea can be difficult to treat because it can have a number of causes. Make sure that you rule out the following:

1. Worms
2. Persistent Coccidia (requires long treatment with specific antibiotics)


Other causes of diarrhea? Vaccinations apparently. Watch that you do not give multiple vaccinations at once. Consider using a minimal vaccination protocol. 

Food issues. Some dogs just don't tolerate certain types of food or sudden changes in food. This can take some juggling to find the right food. Also, you have to make sure that your dog is NOT getting into the trash or stealing food that might make him sick.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Jack had been tested for a lot of different things, and he has had coccidia, giardia, bacteria infections, worms, and then diagnosed with IBD. He stayed on the fortaflorin for several months to help build his immune system, but I dont want him on anything long term.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Is fortaflorin natural supplement ??? If yes and it is helping him than by all means keep him on it indefinitely ! No harm in that.

Inflammatory condition just HAVE to be controlled or permanent damage will occur , unfortunately. Any kind of inflammation and especially one caused by auto-immune response damages the tissue slowly but surely : (((( and there is no way around it : ((( unless spontaneous and complete remission occurs.


Wishing you and Jack best of luck :clover::clover::clover:


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

It is actually called fortiflora (my mistake), which is a probiotic nutritional supplemant that I just put on his food.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

This is just my opinion, but if I were in your situation, I would continue to supplement his food with Fortiflora. Probiotics are very helpful to dogs with any digestive issues and I would see no reason to not include it in his diet long term. If it is just a probiotic, I cannot imagine any longterm ill effects. I give both of my dogs probiotics and digestive enzymes every day: one has bloated and one just has a sensitive tummy. This is a way of being procative for your dog's health and helping his digestive system function properly without harsh drugs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Gailforce, was a biopsy done to confirm IBD?


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## LuvPoo (May 8, 2010)

Hi Gailforce -

For your dog's sake and yours please have your vet do blood work to check for liver problems. Our baby died at 3.5 years in April after a life time of tummy troubles of liver disease. His breeder didn't want to pay attention either & wanted consider his eventual outcome as a "fluke" in the end. It wasn't. I know a direct relative of our past dog who had CAH and just died recently. If you catch it early, it can be managed.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Yes, but I would think that if it were CAH, you would see a dog in general distress. Symptoms include: anorexia, vomiting, diarrhea, jaundice etc. This dog seems healthy except for the diarrhea.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Jack has never been scoped, but at at nine months when he was still having terrible diarreah and he feces was tested and the results showed no worms, bacteria, giardia, or anything, the vet diagnosed him with the IBD. He has had blood work done, but nothing was ever said about liver problems. I havent seen a need to do any more testing since he isnt having any problems, and hasnt had any for going on six months. Its sad to hear of other puppies who have passed away do to inconsiderate, bad breeders.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Please forgive my ignorance, but aren't IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) and IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) different? Without a biopsy, I wonder how you can tell the difference between the two?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> Because giardia can reaccur, he has had it about four times. It got to the point where just told my vet his symptoms, and she just gave me the meds without even seeing him. He was finally diagnosed with IBD, and was put on steriods. He stayed on the steriods, plus fortaflorin for about 3 months.


*Galiforce* - can you please tell us if he had those tests repeated before he was put on steroids ? Sorry, sometimes when we post the picture becomes sketchy and time-line blurred : (. 

Is he still on steroids ??? 

*PoodleAddict* - yes, IBD and IBS are different things and with humans scoping is the norm. I have no idea if there is such a thing as "colonoscopy for dogs" :noidea:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The only way you can confirm IBD is through a biopsy. I think it is presumptious of the vet to assume IBD and automatically put the dog on steroids. Did the vet suggest possible food intolerances? The next time you take him to a vet, I would definitely find a different vet. Preferably, one with a holistic/integrative approach who will look at the whole picture including the dog's lifestyle, diet, etc. Also, I know I said this before, but I would strongly suggest including a probiotic and/or digestive enzyme in your dog's diet as a natural, proactive defense. Additionally, I think you should consider a raw diet!  At least start doing some research because many dogs with GI problems have been completely turned around from a raw diet.


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## LuvPoo (May 8, 2010)

Hi cbrand, & Gailforce -

Our dog showed no outward symptoms of liver disease until about a month before he died, when he fell extremely sick. It took 2 weeks into that month to figure out it was his liver b/c his liver enzymes weren't that high b/c he had almost no liver left. He had chronic off and on loose stools, diarrhea and a sensitive stomach his whole short life. We tried all sorts of different diets b/c it was assumed he had a stomach/IBS thing. He never had jaundice and was extremely athletic & healthy through his life. I would encourage anyone with a poodle to blood test for liver issues as well as addisons, pancreatitis, etc.


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

LuvPoo- Im so sorry to hear about your baby  
Wishpoo- Jack was tested everytime he was at the vet, which was once or twice a month up until ten months. During that time, he had giardia several times, and several bacterial infections. Seemed like the poor guy was never well.Now that I think about it, they put him on the steriods periodicly, and diagnosed him with the IBD at about seven months and told me to keep him on them and that he may be on them for life. He was diarreah free by ten months, so I called it quits on the steriods and he hasnt had diarreah since. 
Chocolatemillie- I agree that it was presumptious of my vet. Jack has been on a probiotic food supplement since he was about six months, and we did switch around his food, carefully, until we found one that he does well on. He actually started gaining weight when we put him on nutro.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Well that is great to hear :target: !!!!!

Whatever it was it seems that it resolved  - and it is WONDERFUL to hear !!! May he stay problem-free forever !!!!:clover:


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## Gailforce (Sep 17, 2010)

Jack is my baby, and he means the world to me. I dont know what I would do if anything happened to him.It would be very hard to move on. I would do whatever it took to see he gets the best care,and I can ony hope that his bowel issues are done for good.


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