# Jumping into the flames...



## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Head first!! Can i ask why the thread was closed when it was not nearly as heated as some previous threads? Do i dare point out the obvious?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Head first!! Can i ask why the thread was closed when it was not nearly as heated as some previous threads? Do i dare point out the obvious?


probably because I told Harley to seek therapy thus making it super personal v.v;


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I want to make it perfectly clear that I didn't ask for the thread to be closed or even contact Plum.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Didnt even occur to me Harley!! My thoughts actually had nothing to do with you/keith.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I want to make it perfectly clear that I wasn't insinuating anyone contacted Barb to have the thread closed... its in the rules that any thread that becomes virulent will be closed


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Well boo. Since i hvae my puppy coming from Silken- oh well


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I was bummed  I didn't get to post this cool sink.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Head first!! Can i ask why the thread was closed when it was not nearly as heated as some previous threads? Do i dare point out the obvious?


As a moderator, if I see what I feel are personal attacks on this forum, I am able to take whatever action I feel is necessary. Keithsomething's comment to Harley chik was the precise reason I closed the thread and I've notified him of that via PM.

It doesn't matter if HC contacted me or not, I did not appreciate the personal nature of the comment, so I closed the thread.

Your question could've been easily asked of me in a private message instead of making a new thread on the forum, but I guess others aren't ready to end the drama as much as I am at this point... hwell:

I'm presuming your "assumption" is that I closed the thread to protect Cherie. You would be wrong. She's a big girl and has no problem speaking her mind. She did not ask me to close the thread either. That was my decision.

I'm sure there will be other threads that spring up similar to the one I closed, but hopefully they won't deteriorate into personal attacks as that one did. If they do, they will also be closed. I don't even care WHO is being attacked or WHO is doing the attacking - it was inappropriate and, if seen by me, will not be tolerated. As long as opinions can be shared without malice and comments can be kept civil, have at it!

The thread is not being removed from view as were the ones regarding Bijoux, so forum members will still be able to read every post and make their own decision about what to take away from it - it just will not be able to continue to decline into more personal attacks on forum members... 

Have a nice evening...

ETA... great sink, Fluffyspoos - but it would be hard to wash a poodle in there (unless it was a toy!)


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I was bummed  I didn't get to post this cool sink.


Haha, fluffy what do you have a gallery of sinks or something?!


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Fluffyspoos, you had me rolling with the sink thing. :lol: I love topic changes in the midst of intense drama. 
(and those are some COOL sinks!)


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

No, I have GOOGLE IMAGE!! WOOT!

It's a fun tactic to ease the tension.. I'll surprise you guys with more silly, random imagines some day. Just you wait.

But for now..


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## yigcenuren (May 3, 2009)

No, really!!! Where did you find that sink pic.?? I'm most likely gonna be moving/building a new home over the summer/fall and I've been pouring over kitchen design ideas (as well as poodle pics) and that is just the sort of cool thing I'd put in my kitchen (or bathroom).

Is it me or has the topic of this thread changed? Does that mean it's gonna be moved? Let's just not start a fight over cool kitchen gajets (gagets?...gadjets?...help I can't spell!!)
I'd hate for this thread to be shut down!!! ; )


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Ok, this is long... sorry!!! This is basically a direct reply to the original thread, sorry Plum to be ignoring your mod powers and closing the thread, but I have been thinking this over all day and I'm trying not to reply too 'emotionally' and instead being more logical, and I really do think it needs another reply to the original thread, despite it being closed....








Arreau said:


> I also know that most of your original post on this thread was full of misinformation.


and


Arreau said:


> nearly everything mentioned in the first post is misinformation


and


Arreau said:


> Everything brought up about this breeder in this thread is misinformation.


Umm, wow. Everything!?? _Really_?? I'm looking, but I only see *ONE* thing was wrong with Jaks initial facts Arreau?? And that was that Jak throught Lucy & Toby had already had a litter of pups (the concern was that they were both under 2 years of age) 
Turns out the litter hasn't happened, it's only PLANNED to happen, so yes he was wrong there. 
Though interestingly the planned litter does still put Toby at less than 2 years of age so you could say he was only half wrong in his concerns there...?

Ok, so Jak was wrong; Lucy and Toby haven't been bred. But seeing you seem to think he's so wrong, I'll go through every single one of Jaks other statements, one by one to check...

"Then Dugan and Bindi... this is a repeat litter.." 
This was still correct information. He never stated it WAS a third breeding, he asked if it was, with a very clear question mark.... Not sure how that makes the whole comment wrong though as the statement itself is still correct despite the question about three breedings was wrong, it wasn't a statement so it's ok; or can we no longer ask questions?

":doh: a miniature to a standard ? seriously?" 
Ok, now you can't call it misinformation for Jak to have an _opinion_ against this breeding. I know mini X spoo is done! I don't think it's so much that it's mini X standard that is the problem though, but more the obvious confirmation faults with the mini boy being used...? I'm sorry, but he's not a well built dog, breeding him _at all_ is a bit 'suss' to me, providing no information about him adds to the suspicion that it's a bit dodgy (IMO), let alone breeding his 'type' [conformationally] into a standard...??? I really can't see that being a good mix, and I too am really rather aghast at the fact they're doing that! But hey, we're all allowed opinions..... aren't we?

"and AGAIN Rosie cannot be 2 years old, because she is a Dugan daughter...."
Ohhh, this statement must be misinformation?? 
Oh wait...

"and then on top of this there is a phantom litter, which is being repeated again in spring....." 
hmm, I'm seeing a pattern here, this comment is _correct_ too...! 

I also have some concerns about a litter being planned to repeat when the pups aren't even off their mum yet!! I know it's a year away, but sheesh, see how the pups grow up!?!! It really does slam of 'pretty colourings came outta this breeding, so we'll do it again' with that statement, though of course Jak didn't go so far as to say that initially, he only commented that he has some concerns over it. 

In any case, it's still not misinformation.


Ok, so we can see now, for sure, that Jaks post wasn't "quite" entirely misinformation... Yes? Infact, it sounds to me as if Jak "was simply sharing something [he] found quite by accident and perceived to be rather shocking." I just quoted Arreau, and I'm sorry, but right now you *are* coming across rather hypocritical. Why? Because your defences to comments about you starting the pendragon thread are *directly* applicable to Jak starting this one, yet you seem to have a big problem with this one and not the pendragon one???

Wait, I'm gonna double check first....



> Everything I posted was information gleaned from their own web site.





> But if we all hold our cards close to our chest, and do not share information that is fact, how are any of the people who come on here looking for breeders and breeder information going to learn anything?





> But I will not and have not posted something unless I got info from a breeders own web site, The Poodle Health Registry or Poodle Pedigree.





> I KNOW I had no agenda or motive when posting the thread. I know it was the shock and awe of what I had just read on their site.


Jak could say the exact same things about his reasons and information when starting this thread? But there is a big problem with THIS one, simply because you have taken offence to it? I'm not even sure WHY you have taken offence to this thread!!???

Seriously Arreau, Jak NEVER linked Silken with you, that was your own paranoia kicking in??? He unfortunately chose to use your (very apt) starting sentence that you've seem to taken very personally, but really it was a very apt starting sentence so I'd be taking it more as a compliment that you worded it so well he re-used it!!! 


Jaks comments were _directly_ stated as CONCERNS he has about _Silkens_ breeding practises. He NEVER ever compared her to pendragon or you or infact anyone at all. He stated the facts as he saw them and that he had serious concerns about this breeder... Though we can't forget he made one [or half] a mistake in one of his concerns though, but perhaps Jak isn't allowed to be human and make a mistake??






Arreau said:


> Are you implying that what THEY [Pendragon] do is ok? You are alright with seeing a nine year old dog bred, possibly back to back heats? (This is impossible to verify now with the changes to their web site) Or that it is ok to have three litters in eleven days? Or that it is ok to breed so many litters when they have six juvenile dogs to place?


WTF? _Seriously_!!??? Where did Jak say he's in support of them!?? _Please_ can you quote where he supported pendragon at all cos I must be missing it going over and over this thread to find it????? I did find him saying "You started the Pendragon thread, and I am sorry, but your motives were clear." but that doesn't seem to be in SUPPORT of pendragon?? But more of a personal comment to you, in reply to your personal comments to him (??) 



And on to the next bit. 

What's this about _the_ 'circle'?? I'm guessing you're meaning Jak, Roxy, Cbrand, and perhaps some others (me too probably!)?? What about _your_ "circle"; you, plum, keith and probably others....??! There is no ONE circle on this forum. We all have 'circles' of closer friends with shared opinions/ethics/etc in life. They are only a problem if you make them one, so why are you making them one!??



Arreau said:


> I am trying and have tried to follow the "circle's" recommendations on what a breeder should do TO THE LETTER


For starters, no one said YOU MUST DO AS WE SAY. That's YOU who wants to fit into _a_ 'circle', that perhaps you don't fit into, but it's NOT the fault of the 'circle' to have forced you into trying to meet their expectations!!! A 'nerdy' kid can't fault the 'popular' kids for making him try out for the football team or even for failing; that was his own doing, both the trying out and the failing. It doesn't make him any less right or wrong though, that's just life. Move on, have your own ideals and stick to them. Don't try and be what _others_ want you to be; be what YOU want you to be!!? That's _highschool_ stuff (trying to fit into the 'popular circles' cos they perceive it as being 'better' and don't have their own sense of self), and I'm afraid the only one I can condone doing that is the only highschool student here; Jak. Except it's the adults around him that are being so childish! lol.

Secondly, you haven't followed the recommendations 'to the letter' at all anyway. In fact you asked the opinions of those you are referring to as 'the circle' about Quincy, and 'the circle' actually were advising you NOT to go with that as there is little that Quincy will actually be bringing to your lines or plans except being black and a cute puppy! This is certainly personal opinion, and can certainly be 'wrong' by another persons opinion, so I'm not saying either 'side' is right or wrong!!!! Only that you CANNOT say you have tried to do exactly what 'they' say, when you clearly haven't!?? 


Arreau, you're _allowed_ to do your own thing if that's what you believe in. Others are allowed to not agree too. And really, YOU have to believe in it and not try and pawn it off as other peoples ideals you're living to! I'm sorry you've taken this so personally as to bash one of my best friends, my esteem of you has gone down!


The thread was originally made because of several valid points-of-concern about a breeder. Those points-of-concern are still valid, regardless of the bashing inbetween. Silken is welcome to come on here and defend herself, just as anyone can post on here. Jak didn't have to post it on poodlecorner, just as she doesn't have to come on here and reply either. It's a free world! Though perhaps the points of concern are more likely to be seen here than there, and that's probably the whole point of posting them; that they're seen. It appears they've been seen, though perhaps not read. 


It _WAS NOT_ about you Arreau, it was about Silken. Though you have bought it onto yourself now!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Thank you FD 

Perfect reply thank you 
I have nothing more to say, you have said all that needs saying 


I am utterly shocked as to how that thread has turned out!

I didn't even get a chance to reply, before so many things were assumed about me, I was rather upset when I read them. 


If anyone has any questions to ask me, please ask them, and publicly, as I have nothing to hide.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I must say I am still completely dazed after reading the whole thread (it was at 10 pm since I was out whole day and it is now 2 am my time) and I STILL am just flabbergasted with the whole comotion that happened ... I do not even know where to start :wacko:

First - if anybody, Jak helped you Cherie soooo many times to get rid of some nasty people here, just taking that fact into account should make you more lenient toward him and give him a benefit of a doubt of why he started this thread. I know I would !!!!

Even IF he wanted to give a massage that "calling out" should be across board and fair and non bias - than be it !!! In what way it is a "bad thing"??? Since when it is OK "for my friend to do shabby business, and it is not for "non-friend" ??? Something is right or wrong and I sometimes really have trouble understanding how and where you put the line and by what merit :rolffleyes: 

How can it be OK to make excuses for doodles and that poor "absent-minded" lady in CO that bred this spring a bitch who had her leg broken as a puppy and has problem walking - in what world it can be right ???? How can it be OK to defend "top Canada breeder" who bred her Stud who has relative with Addison and is NOT telling that, for example, to a breeder who used the Stud ??? How can you call that puppy of hers "correct" in any shape and form ???? How can somebdy buy a cute puppy just for breeding purpose and just to improve the pigment ??? He is not going to bring in any conformation improvement - his tail-set alone can throw back the line - is it possible that you do not see it ??? Maybe not... I am giving you a benefit of a doubt !!!! Maybe you just wish it all falls in place - but wishing alone will not do it.

So, I am also offended indirectly since I trusted you for the longest time and now I feel "played" since I also held your side in so many threads and now am wondering was I on "the right side" ?

Jak is just a boy full of ideals and enthusiasm and there is nothing sly about him in any shape or form - he has all of his cards open - always had , always will ! If anybody can do a research , he can, and as Flying stated, he made only ONE mistake in his opening post. He also knows poodles "inside and out" and questioning his judgment call is really out of place and silly IMO

What happened to Keith - I can not even fathom : (( Why would somebody use such "low blows" out of the blue is just not understandable to me...Talking about "misdirected anger" ...just strange. It does not help to be arrogant in the area in which one is a complete novice by all means.

All in all - I am tiered also listening about supposed "circles" - yes - there are obviously "groups" of people that have the same opinion about any given subject . It does not make them a "club". I almost got phobic posting ANYTHING for a while and especially staying out of the threads where I agree with things discussed so I would not "beat the same horse" - but still , it obviously was not helping in the perception that "circle" exists.

I really hope that we alll can understand that nobody is perfect !!!! That we all first need to clean the trash in front of our own door to be able even to say something about somebody else. That life is really too short for hateful blows in ANY direction. *That we all should be open and ready to hear critique so we can improve and move forward in any goal that we have. That we allll can improve - as breeders, buyers,groomers, or human beings !!!! Let us help each other in that and not put each other down to reach that goal !!!
*
Blessings and peace to all ...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> What happened to Keith - I can not even fathom : (( Why would somebody use such "low blows" out of the blue is just not understandable to me...Talking about "misdirected anger" ...just strange. It does not help to be arrogant in the area in which one is a complete novice by all means.[/COLOR]


I'm not a novice in the area ((call me intermediate ^_^ )) Wishpoo ((arrogant maybe but one really shouldn't speak about things they're a novice at  ))...I know the man from a class he spoke at and I've gotten close to him since having him teach me many things involving disorders in children and how they progress threw out the persons life (( = into adulthood))

but I was reprimanded for my comments...the end?

I find it odd that you would call one "young lad" bright and enthusiastic but the other not...why can't I be enthusiastic about psychotherapy? 

I made my apologies to Barb for taking it "to the next level" and for her having to get involved but I guess I should apologize here as well
Sorry Barb for being "rude" and personal, I hope I didn't cause you to much stress <3


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Head first!! Can i ask why the thread was closed when it was not nearly as heated as some previous threads? Do i dare point out the obvious?


I agree with you - why? Why wouldnt there have been a public warning - as so many others have gotten before by plumcrazy? I think thats unfair and I see a conflict of interest here - I like Cherie , lots - but this time it got out of hand and Jak was not there to even elaborate and it kept going........ I do see some that question her a lot - sometimes its fair, and sometimes its not. Just my opinion. hwell: 

I don't see one "group" better than the other really :wacko:- I AM NOT IN ANY I just watch and agree or disagree. 

Jak - it was a thread worth posting, I do not think you meant for it to go where it did, and I agree with someone that mentioned you and Silken do frequent another forum together - maybe posting there *also* would be a good idea. I am sure some have been educated by your post. I am still wondering about the mixing of variety of spoos, but maybe next time..........


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

This refers back to my post on the Pendragon thread.
I thought the 'rules' of this forum were that you could say anything as long as it's the truth.
I told my experience with Pendragon poodles...that I've met two and that they were nice poodles and the owners were pleased...I don't think I deserved the sarcastic, belittling reply, with a hammer to the head, from Plumcrazy, just because I wasn't going along with all the negative responses. How mature was that? I wouldn't have expected that from the moderator.
I suspect that, had I been someone else, I would not have gotten such a negative response.

I didn't want to post this on the Pendragon thread because I don't want to keep bringing it up to the forefront, either here or when it is Googled.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

I made my apologies to Barb for taking it "to the next level" and for her having to get involved but I guess I should apologize here as well
Sorry Barb for being "rude" and personal[/QUOTE]

Keith...I think your apology would be more appropriately directed to Harley.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> I made my apologies to Barb for taking it "to the next level" and for her having to get involved but I guess I should apologize here as well
> Sorry Barb for being "rude" and personal


Keith...I think your apology would be more appropriately directed to Harley.[/QUOTE]

honestly one should only apologize for what one feels sorry for... I felt sorry that all of you wrongly accused Barb of closing the thread to protect her breeder so I apologized to her... but I'm FAR from sorry about my statement

_"mean what you say, and never look back"_
<3


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

I really thought you were better than that, Keith. To say that someone needs psychiatric help when you really know nothing about them, and then to not apologize for making that statement, which may have caused a great amount of hurt (not that you would know, not actually knowing the person IRL), is just petty and extremely immature. 

I'm disappointed--not that I expect you to care what anyone else thinks of you, I'm just not the kind of person to not speak my mind when I think it's important.

And that's all I'm going to say on this matter.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Marian and Vibrant, I appreciate your comments. I just want to let everyone know I'm not hurt by the comment at all. IMO, the say more about the author than they do about me.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Keith...I think your apology would be more appropriately directed to Harley.[/QUOTE
> 
> .. I'm FAR from sorry about my statement
> 
> ...


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Marian said:


> To say that someone needs psychiatric help when you really know nothing about them


Is that not what we are doing her judging dogs and people we have never met or seen live ?


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Marian and Vibrant, I appreciate your comments. I just want to let everyone know I'm not hurt by the comment at all. IMO, the say more about the author than they do about me.


Agreed!


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Winnow said:


> Is that not what we are doing her judging dogs and people we have never met or seen live ?


It very well could be, but the difference is that the breeders who are discussed are running a business, which naturally exposes them to public commentary, positive or negative. The comments are not usually aimed at the individual person, _as a human being_, but at their business practices, which are fair game for public discussion. Unless the business owner can disprove what is being said about them (which, IMO, is the point of the criticism, i.e., an invitation to the business owner to refute what is being said about their practices), then they just have to deal with it as a part of doing business. That said, if someone makes false accusations about a business that negatively impacts the business, then there are grounds for a lawsuit (as long as the business can prove it lost money as a direct result of the slander or libel). 

To level an attack at an individual about their mental status is crossing the line. It's a fine line sometimes, but it's still a line.


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## Mister (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow so i have been gone form the forum for a while because i went on vacay then i was my sisters maid of honor so i was busy lol. 
I come back and find this thread and now i think ill go back and read the original thread and see what the heck happened.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Ok, besides making the thread for my origional reasons which i posted, i did feel that we were not done with the silken thread. I felt for one that Jak never got a chance to reply to everything, and he was the one who started it. I also didnt think it was "fair" that we can discuss other breeders practices, but not this one? Why? I was pretty shocked by the things (mistakes?) that Jak posted about this breeder. I too also felt that it was pretty hypocritical for a red breeder to start a thread about another red breeder, but an "average" buyer (ie; Not a breeder) could not question a different breeders practices. :wacko: 
All i have to say about red breeders is talk about being "color blind"!! :fish:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

What happened to what the thread was really about? 

:fencing:

Sorry bigpoodleperson we typed at the same time.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Thats ok Olie! I was actually making a general reply, as i havnt had a chance to since making the thread.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> As I suspected...no surprise to me!


first off I don't even know you and vice versa so that comment really made alot of sense... _"No surprise to me"_ like you've held plenty of conversations with me to tell what moral character I'm made of

and HC obviously it speaks VOLUMES about me as a person...so please everyone steer clear of me or I'll give you a reference to one of the best psychotherapists in the south :scared:

I'm sooooooooo sorry to have broken all of these preconceived notions that you lot had of me...evidently since I'm male on a predominantly female board I should act chivalrous and ignore snide backhanded comments...well I won't and I think thats pretty evident by my not apologizing so best get rid of those notions or thoughts of me pretty fast ^_^

if you think I crossed some "line" by saying what I did PM Yung and let him know that you'd like me banned


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> i did feel that we were not done with the silken thread. I felt for one that Jak never got a chance to reply to everything, and he was the one who started it.





plumcrazy said:


> I'm sure there will be other threads that spring up similar to the one I closed, but hopefully they won't deteriorate into personal attacks as that one did. If they do, they will also be closed. I don't even care WHO is being attacked or WHO is doing the attacking - it was inappropriate and, if seen by me, will not be tolerated. As long as opinions can be shared without malice and comments can be kept civil, have at it!


As I stated in my original response to this thread - I'm sure there will be other threads that are started similar to the one that was closed because of personal attacks. Please, BPP or jak, feel free to start another Silken thread if you'd like to - there is nothing precluding you from doing so!



bigpoodleperson said:


> I also didnt think it was "fair" that we can discuss other breeders practices, but not this one? Why?


As I've said before (multiple times) there is not a breeder whose practices aren't able to be discussed here as long as the threads do not deteriorate into personal attacks on members (personal meaning aimed at them as a person, not at their "business" as Marian pointed out) Questioning a business practice is fair and fine, attacking a human being is not. I'm sorry if this isn't clear to some - please PM me if you need more clarification. Thank you.

Barb


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Keith, you are seeing something that isn't there. I have never been underhanded or snide in any of my comments about Arreau or any other breeder. 

1) I've alway been upfront that titles, testing and temperment are equally important in a breeding program.  JMO

2) I've said many times that I'm not interested in a red Poodle, shipping a puppy all the way from Canada to TX or buying a puppy from Cherie herself.

3) The only two breeders in North America that are actively breeding and showing red Standard Poodles, that I know of, are Lido and Farley D's. Showing is a lot of work, costs a lot of money and represents the breeder's commitment to bettering the breed. Hence my comment that Terry Farley does more w/ his dogs that a lot of other red breeders. It was meant to compliment Terry, not insult Cherie. If you know of more red breeders who show, I would be interested in that info and so would other people on this board. (I realize there are some wonderful people currently showing their red dogs but the dogs aren't finished yet, the testing isn't complete and no litters have arrived.)

4) Perhaps I worded it poorly, but my comment in Jak's thread was simply meant to point out that it took Roxy no longer to put her thread together than it took Cherie to put her post about Pendragon together. If one is wasting her time, then so is the other.

5)I've mentioned my frustration w/ the hypocrisy before and it's how I honestly feel. 

So I ask exactly what was snide or underhanded?

I would also like to point out that there are members on this forum that have made it public that they suffer mental health issues. Yet not one person showed the extreme lack of class to bring that into the debate. Resorting to personal attacks shows an inabiltiy to carry on a serious debate. You couldn't think of anything better to say, so you attempted to insult me.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> so please everyone steer clear of me or I'll give you a reference to one of the best psychotherapists in the south


Hey, sweetness, calm down !!!! You are really making yourself looking like a toddler rolling on the floor throwing a tantrum and hitting everybody around with your toys because there is no Mama around to help you LOL !!!! 

Now, if "all" people who do not agree with you need a psychiatrist, as you stated, than there is something wrong with your way of reasoning and dealing with problems in life. JMO 

If one thinks that everybody else is "disturbed" than it is probably other way around. I am NOT saying that you are disturbed - I am saying that your LOGIC is wrong. 

Should you apologize to Harley - of course you should (although she is not expecting it since she is mature enough to know when something can not be expected from somebody)!!!! 

Your "quote" about saying things and not looking back is utterly ridiculous or taken out of the context to look vise when in fact is completely shallow.

Mature persons are able to admit the mistake ,remedy it and than go forward. I understand that you can not see a fault in yourself in general, but trust me - other people can. 

I also think that throwing a bomb about any psychological issues here or anywhere else as an "accusation" shows complete lack of empty for a diseases that are not in anybody's control or anybody's fault and that you did hurt more than one person on this board !!!! You HAVE to choose your words and yes - look back- since you never know who actually needs some mental help. It would be the same thing as making reference about diabetes, heart problems, autoimmune disorders and any other disease - it is not in anybody's control or is anybody's wish to have any of them. WHY use disease 
as a "low blow" ??? 

One does not need to know somebody personally to actually make a very precise judgement about somebody. We express out thoughts and values in out writing and it gives very good "window" into somebody's character. You, as a Psychology enthusiast, should know that better :rolffleyes:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now back to the topic - yes, everybody should be able to write their opinion about breeding practices based on what is true and factual and either we do it objectively or it has no purpose or value at all...

I also think that threads should not be closed due to one person "crossing the line" . Than that person should be reprimanded and possibly that one particular post deleted by a moderator and the rest of civilized forum population than can be allowed to continue with a discussion. 

JMO


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh boy Harley - now we definitely in a "circle" LMAO since we wrote absolutely the same thing about mental problems :doh:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> I also think that threads should not be closed due to one person "crossing the line" . Than that person should be reprimanded and possibly that one particular post deleted by a moderator and the rest of civilized forum population than can be allowed to continue with a discussion.
> 
> JMO


Thank you for your opinion wishpoo. Just like many things in life, everyone has their own belief of how to carry on their business. Since I have only been a moderator on this forum for less than three months (and I'm the only remaining moderator in existence) I'm doing the best I can. Unless Yung has other plans for me, I'm not going anywhere soon and I'm hoping to learn as I go. I will continue to moderate in the way that I feel is right and if anyone has issue with something I choose to do, I welcome PMs to discuss it.

Thank you.

Barb


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> Oh boy Harley - now we definitely in a "circle" LMAO since we wrote absolutely the same thing about mental problems :doh:


:hug:


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

you're all right though I'm a classless fool, who likes to mock people and their mental stability...

((thats sarcasm as have most of posts been since I joined the forum...))

I'm not an egotist wishpoo which is something you're implying ((I read and re read your post just be sure of that lol)) like its been said here I don't know Harley and you most certainly don't know me...but obviously you're qualified to make judgments on me because...and I'm not on her...

Should I have said what I said, obviously not ...but it doesn't take and effin genius to realize that. 
Do I feel bad that you're all making it out to seem like I'm bashing people with mental disorders? yes

and I'd just like to clarify your post that a "disease" is not the same as a "disorder"...

and I stand by my quote, its not ridiculous
if one thinks before they speak and speaks with diction then why look back?...I said what I said because its what I feel why be sorry for it

again don't like it PM Yung and request my ban

-grabs my toys and gracefully gets off the ground-


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Now back to the topic - yes, everybody should be able to write their opinion about breeding practices based on what is true and factual and either we do it objectively or it has no purpose or value at all...
> 
> I also think that threads should not be closed due to one person "crossing the line" . Than that person should be reprimanded and possibly that one particular post deleted by a moderator and the rest of civilized forum population than can be allowed to continue with a discussion.
> 
> JMO


IA. Again - there are threads out there where some were saying some pretty harsh things and accusations to a member and the member publicly asked why it was being allowed to take place.....he was told by members and mods there was not a thing wrong with what was being said and to carry on...........have fun digging it up, I would rather spend my time doing better things - anyway nobody was ever reprimanded and the thread was not closed. But this one (silken) was. 

I am just pointing out that maybe it was a bit premature to close, not offense Plumcrazy but it does appear that there was favoritism applied regardless of how it really was intended. The Keith comment could have easily been addressed and move on.

Speaking of Keith - I am guilty, I have actually thought some people on here at times really may need a therapist (and still do lol), I get where he is coming from and if he is not sorry, so be it - thats his perogative. I too say what I mean - if it came out wrong, sorry.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> grabs my toys and gracefully gets off the ground-


Oh my, Keith, I can not help but say that your last sentence was cute to the point that it made me giggle  since I could actually imagine you as a toddler doing it in real situation !!! You are very intelligent, complex and colorful character (and you know it) and nobody wants you banned !!!!! Why would anybody like that happening ??? 

We just are trying to give you insight in why we found that comment about "disorder" hurtful, that is all ... Both mental diseases and disorders are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain as well as by neural "firing" frequency which are very hard to control even with therapy and/or medication. What do you think "thoughts and memories" are made of ? They are also just "chemical" inscriptions in our brain and as thus permanent and very hard to over-ride even with the best of efforts of the patient and the therapist. Both subgroups have VERY challenging lives : ((((.

I do not think that you are "bashing" at all !!!!!! You just said something in a spur of the moment and fueled by emotions without much thought ( I prefer to see it that way lol) , and it happens to all of us sometimes. But than we go back and try to "unhurt" the situation ... or we may leave it at that ... what do you think is a better way and for the benefit of many ?

:decision:

*Olie *- , nobody is saying that nobody needs "mental help" - and there is nothing wrong with seeking help or getting one or it is anybody's choice to have a mental problem. It is just that those people can not do much about it , same as diabetics can not do much about their condition. Once it is there - it is VERY hard to control it : ((( 

We definitely had examples of horrible things happening with poor dogs as a result of "hoarding" alone : (((. But IMO it is wrong to use it as a "low blow" - in that particular context and way as it was used. :rolffleyes: JMO


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Plumcrazy, in the future, I hope we can keep threads open, especially when there is so much we can learn.

I think a better solution is to address the problem with the person(s) involved. If they can't play nice and make mature contributing statements, they shouldn't be allowed to play. Keith should have been banned for a couple of days for his offensive comment. JMO

I understand being a moderator has been difficult and is a process to find the best approach.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Marian said:


> It very well could be, but the difference is that the breeders who are discussed are running a business, which naturally exposes them to public commentary, positive or negative. The comments are not usually aimed at the individual person, _as a human being_, but at their business practices, which are fair game for public discussion.


I am just talking for myself now. I do not call dog breeding a business. I would thank that to be able to call it a business you would need to be able to make a profit. well that is not happening for me!
The last three years I have spent over 24 thousand USD on my dogs buying them and so on the only money I have gotten back was when we had pups then I got 6 thousand back. But that 6 thousand went into more dog stuff. So I am in a big minus  My dogs are my pets and my hobby.
People who make a profit are in my mind millers.

So just so you know when you are talking about my dogs you are talking about family members.

Not some farm animals ment to make money for me.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

It is not a requirement for a business to make a profit to be considered a business. If any money at all exchanges hands, it is a business. There is nothing wrong with running your breeding program as a business; it's when the amount of the profit becomes more important than the health and well-being of the animals (or the future of the breed) that it becomes worthy of criticism.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I agree with Marian .. I just think we have the wrong connotations on the word 'business' 

IMO, I think that anyone who is breeding, should be able to 'defend' against allegations at any time.

Breeding is not a right that everyone should get, only people who are dedicated in improving the quality and health should be allowed.

That is why I think breeders should have to answer questions and allegations etc.

I know it sucks.... but that's life! You chose to breed, get over it... 
When I see a breeder get all fired up at having questions answered against them, I just begin to wonder.. If your breeding practises are good, then you'll have nothing to hide really..

And as for those other comments...

WOW... just WOW


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)




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## pupsnpig (Jun 23, 2010)

I am new here so I was finding the Silken thread an interesting chance to learn about another breeder. I can honestly say, I've never bought a dog from a breeder so anything I learn I check out. Before even reading Jak's concerns, I looked over the website and saw a lot of the same concerns. I'm learning what to look for and talking with a person who used actively show miniature poodles. However, if I didn't have the help I do I wouldn't have known that there are certain things to look for in breeders. Learning from this forum is one way I propose to learn even more but for others this may be their only way and seeing the arguments and occasional personal attacks, may scare away people. 

I hoping I'm not overstepping bounds by making a comment on this but I would never say to anyone that I think they need therapy, even though I am close to obtaining my degree in psychology. I guess there are numerous reasons why, number one being it can easily seem insulting. It's kind of "There's something wrong with you, I know what's best for you" type of thing, at least in my mind. I not only work with people with serious mental illness each day but I am a person with a serious mental illness. I don't think it's my place to tell people they need help unless they ask for it. I know a lot of really good therapists in my area but I don't go around offering referrals to people who don't ask for them. 

Olie- There is a difference between thinking things and actually saying them. I used to think I was a horrible person because I had 'mean' thoughts. We all think things about other people at times. It's having that ability not say them that's the key. 

I've been on other forums before but nothing as heated as this one, so this is a new experience for me. Again I hope I'm not offending anyone because I am a new member commenting here.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

pupsnpig said:


> Olie- There is a difference between thinking things and actually saying them. I used to think I was a horrible person because I had 'mean' thoughts. We all think things about other people at times. It's having that ability not say them that's the key.
> 
> I've been on other forums before but nothing as heated as this one, so this is a new experience for me. Again I hope I'm not offending anyone because I am a new member commenting here.


Thanks pupsnpig I am well aware of if you have nothing nice to say, don't. I too work in a field that I must be very careful, on forums not so much and I like that option. My point was to lighten the air for Keith as he has been a very respectable member of the forum, he was reprimanded, stated how he felt and move on. Also, there is history with many folks on here and things build up and WALA - you get these heated threads. 

I agree - as of late some threads have gotten heated. This one I am overhwell:

And nothing you said was offensive - I wish more new members would chime in!


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

I'm going to chime in too:

I joined this forum quite some time ago, to talk to people who loved poodles, learn more about the breed, and have some friendly banter...and then I skulked away because of the total ridiculousness of the Bijou threads. People coming on as someone else. The cattiness, the back biting, the insults. It was CRAZY.

So fast forward to recently. I come on, lurk around a little, and think that maybe all that had blown over. It had, but another completely ridiculous thread had started.

First of all, I own a forum. And 90% of you would have been banned after the Bijou thread. On my forum we discuss politics, capital punishment, abortion, religion and not one of those super controversial threads has ever deteriorated the way the threads on here do. It's insane the way an argument among people can turn into a thread, on a public forum. Take it to PM, or call the person and tell them what an ******* you think he/she is. This is no place to have a discussion about hipocracy, mental health, and hurt feelings. That is a personal conversation, which has NOTHING to do with dogs.

Secondly, it's very apparent that quite a few of you don't care if you scare away new members. After I joined the first time I got quite a few PM's from people wondering why I posted in the threads I did. Why I used a certain smiley (seriously, someone actually asked me that). Why I joined. Honest to God. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why (a) people started threads if they didn't want newbies posting in them (b) smileys were there to use if their use offended some members (c) what the hell I did to deserve so much attention from members! There should be a warning when people are registering for an account...things get very heated, very personal, and you are subject to PM attack if you do, say, or post in the "wrong area". We realize that all areas are open to post in, but you'll figure out where you're wanted. Good luck! Then at least rookies would have a clue how things are on here.

I think it's great to have a board to discuss breeding practices. If the board remained about breeding practices, that would be even better...There is a distinct pack mentality here, and if you're new to this it's intimidating. If you're a veteran it seems childish.

BTW--my opinion on POODLES is this:

Showing dogs does not make you a better breeder. It's lovely when you can show, but it doesn't mean your dogs are superior. A lot of craptastic BYB show, and win. Would I buy from them because the Kennel club allowed them to register their dogs? Because they had a championship? Because they were canine good citizens? No! People know how to fool other people. Do you think that awful breeders don't know that sometimes buyers like to see CH behind a name?? All the dog needs to win is decent confirmation. That doesn't mean the breeder is exceptional. It means they lucked out and have a pretty dog. Yippee!

Competition is healthy. Having other breeders makes YOU try harder. Better confirmation, better pigment, more extensive health testing, better color. You want people to come to you to buy a puppy? make your puppy better than the other guy!

And speaking of "buying"...asking someone what they spend the money they make on their breeding program is the single most disgusting thing I've ever seen on here. It is a business. It's a business that is a whole lot more fun than running a shoe store, or a chip wagon, but it's still a business. Some money goes back into the business, but the money earned is your money to do with as you please. And no one should have to justify their spending to a relative stranger! If you have no money left over after all of your pups are sold and your dog expenses are covered, you are running your business wrong. Just like the guy with the shoe store. If had no money left after his week closed, he would be doing a pretty awful job of running that store. he'd be out of business in under a year! It's a job. It's a job that is a lot of fun because you get to play with dogs and puppies, but it's still a job, and the point of a job is???? To make money!!!

I truly believe this forum has a great amount of potential to be where a lot of prospective buyers come to to learn about the breed, and what to look for...but until the other crap stops it's not going to be considered reputable.

And on that note, I'll probably leave and not come back until THIS blows over. But the way things seem to be going, I probably won't be back. I have enough drama in my own life, I don't really need it online too.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

*skye* said:


> BTW--my opinion on POODLES is this:
> 
> Showing dogs does not make you a better breeder. It's lovely when you can show, but it doesn't mean your dogs are superior. A lot of craptastic BYB show, and win............... Do you think that awful breeders don't know that sometimes buyers like to see CH behind a name?? All the dog needs to win is decent confirmation. That doesn't mean the breeder is exceptional. It means they lucked out and have a pretty dog. Yippee!


I just wanted to give a counter point to this in case there are newbies lurking. I feel like there are too many people who walk around dissing show dogs and it feeds into the mentality that somehow "best in home" is now superior to "best in show".

I personally do not know any BYBs who show. By definition, a BYB is a person who usually owns a dog and bitch and who breeds them to make a little money on the side. A BYB is a person NOT involved in the Poodle fancy.

RE getting a championship.....It is easier to finish a Poodle in Canada, but in the US, you need more than decent conformation. You need good conformation, good coat, good movement and good temperament. This is harder to get in one package than you would think. Example: There are some WOW Poodles out right now in our area. Man can they move. Sparkle. Sparkle. Sparkle. Problem? They have weak temperaments and they are pretty skitsy and nervous. They get dumped by a lot of judges and rightly so! One of my own puppies, Penny, showed last year. Nice structure. Fabulous coat! Friendly temperament. But.... head like a dump truck and no umph (remember.... a Poodle should sparkle in all of their work). She has 6 points and I don't know if she will be shown again.

Do poor quality dogs finish? Yes. Can the system be played? Yes. (I know someone who flew a Poodle to Alaska to get her majors). Put a dog with a very well known Pro, wig it, dye it and drag it around enough and you can finish almost anything. Note.... this will cost $20,000+ . 

In general, though, I have a lot of respect for Poodles who get an AKC championship in the US. Most have a lot to really like about them and they really are superior. I continue to be encouraged when I see that Poodles with poor structure, coat, movement and temperament can NOT get their championship.

BTW... just to clear up a point. The championship title goes before the registered name. Performance titles go after unless they have the highest performance title like a MACH or an OTCH and then it goes in front with the CH.


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

Don't get me wrong...I think showing is great. And generally I respect a dog that has finished or has titles. For me it's not about how hard it is to get championed, or what that means. It's more about the fact that you don't have to have titled dogs to have good, healthy, sound puppies.

And the system can be played, so it cannot be trusted to help choose a breeder. Health testing, happy puppies, & knowledgeable breeders are things that can't be played. THAT is what you should buy your pup based on.


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## pupsnpig (Jun 23, 2010)

When I look at a breeder, I look for a few things. I do look for those who show their dogs. However, I also prefer breeders who title their dogs in obedience or agility as well as conformation. Then of course health testing is very important to me. I'm looking for a dog to train as a service dog so if they develop a serious health problem, I've just put a lot of money into a dog that won't be able to work. 

Then I look for breeders that use early neurological stimulation and that temperament test. I want a breeder that has someone else do the temperament testing, someone unfamiliar to the puppies.

When looking at poodles, I'm looking for a breeder that at least introduces the puppies to grooming before they go home. Big pluses to me are breeders that start crate training and some basic training before the puppies leave.

A big negative in my book is a breeder that has an older puppy that they have never socialized! Okay, I understand you did not intend to still have the puppy but you do, at least help the future owners out by giving this dog a chance! 

Another big negative, telling me the exact brand of food I must feed or requiring me to use a certain supplement in order for the contract to be valid. A lot of times when I see that in the contract the dog must be a given a certain supplement, that breeder happens to sell that supplement on their website. I feed a raw diet and don't use supplements. On top of that I don't want to be forced into feeding a crap food (like IAMS, Science Diet, Royal Canin) to ensure my contract is valid. There are certain things I will not budge on, diet is one of those things.

Another high on my list is breeders that e-mail you too much, constantly asking me if I'm still interested or sending me pictures of a puppy. It seems a bit desperate....

I want a breeder that is willing to allow me to meet their dogs before I make a decision. I know what I'm looking for and I can't tell from pictures. I also am looking for a breeder that picks the puppy for me based on the needs I stated, not sending me pictures asking me what 3 week old puppy I want. You can't even really tell conformation at that age, let alone temperament!

I know I'm very picky but for what I'm looking for, I feel I need to be. I'm taking this dog everywhere with me someday. Ensuring that my dog has a reasonable chance of being healthy and temperamentally functional in the world we live in. For some reason the general public forgets dog safety 101 when it comes to service dogs, feeling the need to pet them without asking and allowing their children to use my dog as entertainment. 

I just disagree with dog showing when becoming a champion is more important than a dog being able to do it's original function (GSDs always come to mind). It's not that way with all breeds or all breeders, it's just sad to see when these things happen. I'm for the all around dog, one that looks good and can do their original function or serve another purpose (service dog, therapy dog, search and rescue dog, obedience dog, agility dog).

Wow that was a long post...


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't know about anyone else..but I skimmed this thread hoping for more sink photos.

I'm kind of disappointed to say the least.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Aidan said:


> I don't know about anyone else..but I skimmed this thread hoping for more sink photos.
> 
> I'm kind of disappointed to say the least.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think that showing is important, mostly because it shows that the breeder is truly dedicated to producing top quality dogs, improving the breed, and then showing to everyone what a beautiful, healthy, sound, happy poodle they have. However, I agree that showing is not everything. From what I have heard, showing costs lots of $$$$. (But then again, I know breeding does too..). And I think what CBrand is saying is that you have to be careful because maybe some breeders who emphasize "best in home" not "best in show" might not be trying to better the breed. That's how I understood it. As always, there are many factors involved in finding a good breeder and what you DON'T want is a breeder who does not care whether they are improving the health and quality of the breed. Who is breeding for the wrong reasons. 

I am sure there are good breeders out there who don't show, for whatever reason. And, I PERSONALLY would have no problem with that breeder if I knew they were actively engaged in learning about the breed, genuinely cared about improving the breed, only breeding dogs that will contribute to the breed, attending dog shows, involving their dogs in something (agility, obedience, therapy, etc.). 

I have never bred nor shown, so please don't take my opinion for more than it is worth


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

oo heart sink! What about bathtubs? If i'm going to be looking into a nifty sink..I'm pretty sure I need a snazzy bathtub to go with it.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


>


_Fluffyspoos, I think I love you!! :rofl:_


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

OMG Fluffyspoos and Aidan, you're amazing! :rofl:


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

*skye* said:


> it's very apparent that quite a few of you don't care if you scare away new members. After I joined the first time I got quite a few PM's from people wondering why I posted in the threads I did. Why I used a certain smiley (seriously, someone actually asked me that). Why I joined. Honest to God. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why (a) people started threads if they didn't want newbies posting in them (b) smileys were there to use if their use offended some members (c) what the hell I did to deserve so much attention from members! There should be a warning when people are registering for an account...things get very heated, very personal, and you are subject to PM attack if you do, say, or post in the "wrong area". We realize that all areas are open to post in, but you'll figure out where you're wanted. Good luck! Then at least rookies would have a clue how things are on here.


Skye, I'm so glad you said this, and you said it very well. In my opinion this board could do a lot better at being ambassadors for the breed. As someone who considers myself a newbie, I can quite honestly say that the behavior I've seen on this board has pretty much killed any interest I might have had in checking out poodle clubs in my area. I can't imagine spending an afternoon with people who behave like some of the people I've encountered on this board. Animals are my what I do for fun. I get plenty of drama and bitch politics in my day job. I'm sure not going to seek out more in my free time. I've already quietly taken two breaks from this board after some snarking episode offended me. At some point its quite possible I'll just wander off and not come back.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I think it's a real shame that when discussions take a negative turn, they get so much attention and the entire forum starts getting bashed as a bad place to be. The reality is 98% of this forum is positive feedback, support and constructive discussion, and about 2% is negative snarky discourse. IMO you can take from this board what you want. You can either focus on the small amount of negativity that takes place (legitimately quite often), or you can focus on the positive. I'm a big fan of this board and there's nowhere else I would rather go to discuss and learn about poodles.

And as for breeders... Well if you can't handle the heat, which happens in the dog world both off and online, then maybe you should reconsider your business choice. Think of this board as mostly free consumer feedback (considering most members are owners not breeders) and maybe you can improve your business practices as a result! Or at least you can figure out who is in your target market and who isn't. No business can be all things to all people.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Aiden, you must think outside of the box.. an inside of the eggshell.










Only then can you be truly free.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Fluffyspoos - you are priceless!!! :biggrin:


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

> I think it's a real shame that when discussions take a negative turn, they get so much attention and the entire forum starts getting bashed as a bad place to be. The reality is 98% of this forum is positive feedback, support and constructive discussion, and about 2% is negative snarky discourse. IMO you can take from this board what you want. You can either focus on the small amount of negativity that takes place (legitimately quite often), or you can focus on the positive. I'm a big fan of this board and there's nowhere else I would rather go to discuss and learn about poodles.
> 
> And as for breeders... Well if you can't handle the heat, which happens in the dog world both off and online, then maybe you should reconsider your business choice. Think of this board as mostly free consumer feedback (considering most members are owners not breeders) and maybe you can improve your business practices as a result! Or at least you can figure out who is in your target market and who isn't. No business can be all things to all people.


Great response, and i completly agree. We can sometimes get snarky and bitchy, but it mostly comes from the passion and love for the breed. If some people think this poodle board is bad, then dont check out other breed boards!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes ... everybody is just hating this "heated thread" soooo much that it had 1,755 views ...hmmm :rolffleyes: 

I agree with Cdnjenga - there is a small percentage of threads that end up with heated discussions and whoever is not interested can just skip them and enjoy so many, many more that are discussing grooming, showing, nutrition,fun photos etc. :rolffleyes:

When breeding practices come into question, "heat" is going to rise, no matter what, but still, if they are ever going to be improved for the benefit of a breed they need to be discussed and problems addressed :rolffleyes:


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

lol, am I the only one who enjoys the heated threads? I'd hate this place if all it was was sweet fluffy niceness... Gimmie a good heated debate any day! We all learn more about each other as people and info about poodles and breeding etc with the odd debate than we do by all the 'look at my darling fluff' threads!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> lol, am I the only one who enjoys the heated threads? I'd hate this place if all it was was sweet fluffy niceness... Gimmie a good heated debate any day! We all learn more about each other as people and info about poodles and breeding etc with the odd debate than we do by all the 'look at my darling fluff' threads!


Haha ! I so agree... it's either heated threads, or shove all of it under the carpet, like so many other problems in our society.....................


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Aiden, you must think outside of the box.. an inside of the eggshell.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I see your egg,

and raise you a shoe!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Laughing Out Load and in serious shower envy!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Aidan said:


> I see your egg,
> 
> and raise you a shoe!


Your shoe is very impressive, I see you favor the classics.

Let us talk about it over lunch. My treat. I hope Italian will suffice?


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

Why have shoes and pants when you can just have them all in one?


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

I don't disagree that sometimes a heated thread can be fun, but it does tend to wear itself out quickly...just like drama in a family, fun, for about 5 minutes.

And, it's hard to ignore the heated threads, when people are posting like crazy in them, and then, if you post in it, even something insignificant like this: :scared: you get a bajillion PM's "why are you scared?" "why did you go to that thread?" "why did you post that?" Isn't this a PUBLIC forum?? What the hell?? :bird:

There is a lot of positive feedback, but the threads with the most hits are the ones with the most bitching and snarking, so any newbie is going to go to the hot threads thinking that there must be something interesting in there. That's how I ended up in the Bijou thread in the first place...Sadly, people WILL judge a book by it's cover, and if that's the cover the forum is presenting then you are going to scare off a ton of people. Clearly this is fine by most of you. :doh:

And FYI-I'm a member on two breed forums, and there isn't near the conflict, personal attacks and all out bitterness on either one.

And bigpoodleperson, if this amount of heat and utter BS comes from breeding dogs I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone who has more sense than a turnip does it. Breeders don't need to be attacked. Puppy mills and back yard breeders do. Just because a breeder does things differently than YOU would like them to, doesn't always make them a bad breeder, it makes them different.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

I gotta say- i love this board- but these breeder debates although have some educational purpose.. . there are other ways to do it- with out naming names. and pointing fingers and getting personal. . 

i'm on quite a few other boards and most of them wouldn't let threads of this type exist (In the horse world there's enough $ that if you talked this way about big trainers the board OWNER gets calls from lawyers regarding it)


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

neVar said:


> I gotta say- i love this board- but these breeder debates although have some educational purpose.. . there are other ways to do it- with out naming names. and pointing fingers and getting personal. .
> 
> i'm on quite a few other boards and most of them wouldn't let threads of this type exist (In the horse world there's enough $ that if you talked this way about big trainers the board OWNER gets calls from lawyers regarding it)



_NeVar & Skye, exactly the point I have made a few times on other threads! Thanks for that._


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> lol, am I the only one who enjoys the heated threads? I'd hate this place if all it was was sweet fluffy niceness... Gimmie a good heated debate any day! We all learn more about each other as people and info about poodles and breeding etc with the odd debate than we do by all the 'look at my darling fluff' threads!





wishpoo said:


> Yes ... everybody is just hating this "heated thread" soooo much that it had 1,755 views ...hmmm :rolffleyes:
> 
> When breeding practices come into question, "heat" is going to rise, no matter what, but still, if they are ever going to be improved for the benefit of a breed they need to be discussed and problems addressed :rolffleyes:


I probably account for a few of those 1,755 views (much more now, I'm sure, but I'm too lazy to look.) And have yet to say anything on the matter. But here goes.

I watched the first thread deteriorate in to some form of a child's playground, and am very disappointed with what I saw. My opinion probably doesn't matter to half of the people that were active in the thread (*that* is a two way street), but it is interesting and saddening to some extent to learn the character of a few whom I thought were okay people. It is the internet, after all, and there are... certain "odd" and "immature" people to be expected. However I *didn't* expect the latter on poodle forum, of all places. Coming outright and saying it, I do feel that Keith should at least get a few days' ban for what was said, and am surprised/slightly disgusted that it hasn't already happened. I think that if anyone else had said something to that extent in any other situation, they would have been rightly reprimanded (and believe I have seen it done before). I, personally, have nothing against him... but fair is fair. It is almost to the point where I feel that I should look at who he is friends with and follow suit and make nice, myself... in the event I ever decide to attempt to tear someone down personally on PF.

Yes, Wishpoo, I agree that when breeding practices come in to question that some people will take offense where none was meant, however we are all adults and should know how to handle ourselves better. I would hope that every breeder on here would be of the stock that wants to improve poodles as a whole, and be mature and responsible in doing so. Isn't that why we're all here in the first place? A forum built of people from all over the world with at least one common denominator: a love of poodles. 

Like you, FD, I love a good debate. Really over any and everything. I often play devil's advocate, myself. However, a discussion/debate should never become that heated in any situation... once it does, it has deteriorated to little more than a petty argument, which the general public shouldn't have to see. I've gotten angry on here before, was/still am ashamed of that, but when you step back and look at the big picture; *this is the internet*. Full of people you will never meet. Just because you don't have to deal with them in person gives you no reason to speak to them as if they were beneath you. 

Food for thought.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

flyingduster said:


> lol, am I the only one who enjoys the heated threads? I'd hate this place if all it was was sweet fluffy niceness... Gimmie a good heated debate any day! We all learn more about each other as people and info about poodles and breeding etc with the odd debate than we do by all the 'look at my darling fluff' threads!


The funny thing about this is the people who claim they want no ("bashing" which I have found a new word for that since everyone is evryone is claiming they are not bashing now lol) Blazing are the same people who post in the heated threads or create them.....:wacko::rolffleyes:


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## *skye* (Oct 17, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> The funny thing about this is the people who claim they want no ("bashing" which I have found a new word for that since everyone is evryone is claiming they are not bashing now lol) Blazing are the same people who post in the heated threads or create them.....:wacko::rolffleyes:



So basically you're saying, that someone like me, who generally thinks that the heated threads are usually made up of BS just shouldn't post in them?? Not voice my opinion when I think the thread has gone beyond reasonable? HA! Yeah right!


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Might as well not voice your opinion, Skye, it will get you nowhere. 

Evidently it was pointless for any of us to have an opinion on whether or not Keith was to be punished, as it isn't going to happen, and his slap on the wrist will suffice in the eyes of poodle forum law. 

However, I see this as the beginning of erosion for the bar of the forum, as now we all know we can personally attack people and have little to no consequences. Gonna put that great coin in my piggy bank. :eyeroll:

---------------

I'm not sure that there is any way the breeder threads can remain civil. You can't really peg who will take offense to what, but it is almost guaranteed that someone will take offense to something. That's just how it is. And the saddest part, nearly all of us are adults save three that come to mind. Well, scratch that, two.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

Stepping toe into the flames....

I just wanted to say that I think the discussion of Cabryn poodles on the NJ breeder thread is a great example of constructive information about a breeder being given. Not only am I extremely grateful for the information, I was incredibly impressed by the responses of those who own a dog from that breeder. Instead of taking it as a personal attack or a critique for choosing that breeder, it was received for what it was intended to be - well meaning, legitimate concerns about a breeder that some newbies (like me) were looking into. I also think it highlights the importance of sharing such information - I may have a fabulous experience with a breeder while another person has a horror story - and each should be shared and recognized. 

A good breeder may have an off day when meeting clients, or such stories may be indicative of poor practice. All of this information; the good, the bad, the ugly, is incredibly important when deciding on the companion you hope to have for the next 15 years. We are all poodle enthusiasts, and breeding programs are central to the successful, healthy continuation of this wonderful breed. I hope we can continue to discuss them in a positive, supportive, constructive manner.

Just my two cents.

Cindy


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

1Jurisdiva- you are absolutely right !!!!

HOWEVER - if discussed breeder came into your thread, or one of her co-breeders , I am sure that it would not go that "smoothly" :smow:

My feeling was ,and still is , that no breeder should be bias nor attack competition and than with completely changed merit protect "friends" . 

Breeding practices are either good , bad or *the best that they can be
* and that is the direction to which everybody should strive to go, IMO. 

It is absolutely not true that "nobody should care" about somebody's else's breeding program. If I was a breeder, I definitely would be VERY careful with whom I do associate and whom I am recommending. 

I am just a future puppy buyer but still am extremely careful of whom I would recommend to another buyer :rolffleyes:. 

Yes - I still cringe at the post that was extremely mean and misdirected, but it is obvious that what we think about that conduct does not matter much...


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Well said Wishpoo!!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

its a shame none of you are the people in authority then...because evidently you're all able to judge a situation better than our mod and admin...:rolffleyes:

my vote, throw an application into the mix to become a mod and ban me yourself otherwise...stop saying it...

and I agree with 1Jurisdiva breeder threads are what make this place work, should they get as heated and nasty as I took it? absolutely not...
lol but you all have your opinions of me now so I guess I'll take my slap on the wrist and ignore how _"disappointed"_ people are in me


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

1Jurisdiva said:


> Stepping toe into the flames....
> 
> I just wanted to say that I think the discussion of Cabryn poodles on the NJ breeder thread is a great example of constructive information about a breeder being given. Not only am I extremely grateful for the information, I was incredibly impressed by the responses of those who own a dog from that breeder. Instead of taking it as a personal attack or a critique for choosing that breeder, it was received for what it was intended to be - well meaning, legitimate concerns about a breeder that some newbies (like me) were looking into. I also think it highlights the importance of sharing such information - I may have a fabulous experience with a breeder while another person has a horror story - and each should be shared and recognized.
> 
> ...


Great Point!! 

Wishpoo also makes a good point, BUT hey you never know, I think we are all living and learning.

Also Spencer makes some pretty valid points ^^ on a few things.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

1Jurisdiva said:


> Stepping toe into the flames....
> 
> I just wanted to say that I think the discussion of Cabryn poodles on the NJ breeder thread is a great example of constructive information about a breeder being given. Not only am I extremely grateful for the information, I was incredibly impressed by the responses of those who own a dog from that breeder. Instead of taking it as a personal attack or a critique for choosing that breeder, it was received for what it was intended to be - well meaning, legitimate concerns about a breeder that some newbies (like me) were looking into. I also think it highlights the importance of sharing such information - I may have a fabulous experience with a breeder while another person has a horror story - and each should be shared and recognized.
> 
> ...


_I am glad that you are brave enough to step your toes into the flame because what you posted makes total sense__.__ This has always been my wish too._


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> 1Jurisdiva- you are absolutely right !!!!
> 
> HOWEVER - if discussed breeder came into your thread, or one of her co-breeders , I am sure that it would not go that "smoothly" :smow:
> 
> ...


You know as a person in a co-breedership agreement with my breeder (and I might add that I am the only co-breeder that my breeder has) I think I'm insulted. I have as a general rule of thumb tried to get along with everyone and not stir up contention! I don't understand the purpose in this thread at all except to stir us strife. 

When I joined this forum it was to learn more about poodles a breed that I love and have shared my home with for many years. I also thought it would be wonderful to be able to chat with so many people that had this in common with me. I know that when people are passionate about something sometimes tempers can flare and that is a part of being human. However I do not understand why this witch hunt is taking place. Its gone on for days and pages over several threads. What exactly is being accomplished here? Certainly it has absolutely nothing to do with poodles. (Which I might add is what this forum is supposed to be about)

Our mod is a hardworking woman that has a lot to do and tries to keep on top of everything here. Not to mention has spent lot of time on threads adding her kind humour. Now it seems its ok to take pot shots at her because she made a decision that was hers to make. I think we should all be very grateful that someone like plumcrazy is willing to put up with us and be our mod. I know that it is a thankless position and this kind of thread where she is constantly being taken shots at is a prime example of it. Not to mention she is the only one we have left. Others have quit. So what will exactly happen if she joins the trend?

It would be truly wonderful if we could all show some maturity and move on to more constructive conversations particularly ones that are about poodles a breed that we all love (hopefully). I'm sure that it would be a much better use of our time.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Is this thread _*still*_ going? How long are you all going to beat a dead poodle?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

This is really ridiculous :doh: 

Why is my post "quoted alone" - there were bout 10 other people who complained about the situation including persons who did not participate at all:wacko: 

Are you now twisting it around again so real problem gets "fogged" ??? Like I have no better things to do but pursue some personal vendetta toward Plum of allllll people - that is utterly preposterous proposition LMAO 

Keith, dear, we are past "disappointment" and believe it or not, it is not about you per se , but general rules *sigh ...


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> This is really ridiculous :doh:
> 
> Why is my post "quoted alone" - there were bout 10 other people who complained about the situation including persons who did not participate at all:wacko:
> 
> ...


Sweetie pie perhaps you are right I should have included others but then again you were the only one who did complain about co-breeders and therefore I did feel the need to set it straight. 

Do quote me correctly if its possible I never said that you were trying to pursue a vendetta against plum I merely stated that just maybe we should all be grateful to and for her and not over the course of days bicker and complain about a judgement that was hers to make. Of course the bickering and complaining was not just directed at you my dear. (oh no I'm being sucked into this hideous thread help help!!)


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I do not see why sarcasm was needed in your post :rolffleyes:

Was I sarcastic in any way in mine reply toward you :wacko:- if you think I was , I apologize ...

I have to say that I have no idea of how you saw yourself as referred to in my original post - except if you maybe do see yourself in that predicament that I described :rolffleyes:. 

I was writing in general terms , not thinking about anybody particular on this board @@ .

This place is becoming reeeaaallyyy strange ...


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I hate to bring this thread back up to the top - but I have a few more things to say and then I'm moving on...

First - thanks, Trillium for your vote of confidence - being a moderator is pretty much a thankless position - there is absolutely no way that a person in this position can make every single individual on this forum happy. I really (and I truly mean this) do not concern myself with what people whom I don't even know think of me as a person. I promise I will not lose a second of sleep over it! It's all good - go ahead and say what you will about me - It will not bother me! 

Secondly, so everyone is brought up to speed; the administrator and I have discussed this issue together (we contact each other about the Poodle Forum as often as necessary - sometimes several times a day when things get really hot) The decision not to ban anyone over this thread or these comments was made jointly - it was not my decision alone - I directed Yung to the thread/comments, and told him that if he chose to place a ban, I would support his decision unconditionally - he is, after all, the administrator of this board and his decision would be final. He is the one who asked me to take the steps I have.

As I've mentioned before, unless Yung has other plans for me, I'm not going anywhere anytime soon. I'm strong enough to take any comments anyone has for me (they're just words after all!) 

And lastly, to respond to the few comments that allude to the misconception that it's pointless to have an opinion, or it doesn't pay to voice it; I have to disagree. It's perfectly acceptable to have an opinion and it's awesome to share it - just because your opinion wasn't shared by the administrator or the mod, does not mean it wasn't worthy of being voiced, just that we had a different one this time. Maybe next time we'll share your opinion, but someone ELSE will have a differing one... It's all subjective.

'K, I'm done. Thanks for listening, thanks for the support of those who do support me, and thanks for the challenges of those who don't - hopefully it WILL make me a better moderator as I continue my journey...

God bless...


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Thanks for clarifying things Plum. I for one really appreciate you acting as our mod (and the others who also acted in that role and left). I know it's not always easy, particularly when there are personal relationships off the board, and I think generally all the mods have done a good job within the scope of power they have been given.

I also think this board is at its best when the discussions and comments about breeders are measured and fact based. Moving forward I would be happy to see breeder questions left to people who actually want information about said breeder rather than members of this board hunting out information to start a pile on. I say this fully acknowledging that in the past I have been as guilty of joining the pile on as anyone, but in recent months it has just seemed unproductive to me. We could spend the rest of our lives hunting out questionable poodle breeders, sadly there's many out there everywhere from top conformation kennels down to bybs.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> its a shame none of you are the people in authority then...because evidently you're all able to judge a situation better than our mod and admin...:rolffleyes:
> 
> my vote, throw an application into the mix to become a mod and ban me yourself otherwise...stop saying it...
> 
> ...


_I was disappointed with your remark but realize that it was made in the heat of the moment. One bad remark does not make the whole of a person bad.

In the past, I gave a warning first in a situation like that with a pm to the person who was being reprimanded and a public announcement to bring things back on track or the thread would be closed. I usually ended up having to close the thread anyway because people wouldn't play nice.

Posts are not allowed to be removed from a thread. Once posted, it remains unless our Administrator makes a rare decision for removing it and it has to be a very good one. If the post is removed, then other remarks made cease to make sense and the lesson of what happens when a bad post is made is lost. 

I am not going to second guess our very dedicated and hard working (and only) moderator. She handled the situation as she felt was fit to do so and that is her prerogative and responsibility. Rules were finally established for PF and I am sure Barb took that into consideration before making her decision. 

I have to say that others have mentioned here about the other forums they are on and that nothing like the flaming/blazing that goes on here goes on on those forums. I agree with this kind of moderation. No personal attacks mean no personal attacks. This is in no way to be misconstrued as we shouldn't have good, healthy debate that is factual. I like a good debate based on facts as much as the next person.__ Interpretation of those facts walks a fine line sometimes. It is easy to become emotionally involved to the point of stepping over the line. We all need to be mindful of that._ 

_We all have made forum friends and have aligned ourselves with certain individuals who think the way we do. It is human nature to do so and I don't see anything wrong with that in and of itself. The only time I see it as a problem is if a thread gets out of hand and a group of people who are like minded step over the line and the thread becomes a battle ground instead of being informative and educational. That muddies up everything and really defeats the purpose of the thread. _

_As far as fluff goes, I see it the other way around. Thank goodness for the fluff being there to offset the tension in the breeding threads!! :smile-big:
_


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Plum and Debbie for taking time to write and explain why things happened as they did !!! It is very much appreciated. 

I guess now I can go and "let a bee fly out of my bonnet" as Deb once suggested :lollypop:

Cdnjjenga - I like your idea A LOT !!!!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Thanks Plum and Debbie for taking time to write and explain why things happened as they did !!! It is very much appreciated.
> 
> I guess now I can go and "let a bee fly out of my bonnet" as Deb once suggested :lollypop:
> 
> Cdnjjenga - I like your idea A LOT !!!!


_I also think that Cdnjennga's idea is a very good one. I was just talking with Dianne about that a couple of days ago after reading this thread and the one that preceded it. We thought it would work better, too, if a breeder was discussed after someone asked about them rather than just bringing them up randomly. Hopefully we will all figure out a way to make the breed threads work better for everyone. _


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