# Should I ditch this vet???



## lwm1984 (Apr 15, 2012)

That sounds like nonsense to me. Since I started feeding my spoo raw, she's actually lost weight. I even had to increase her food well past Nature's Variety's feeding calculator, since I feel like she's definitely too skinny. 

Insofar as dog's are descended from wolves, I'd say they are more carnivorous, although my spoo does like her grass when her tummy is upset. In general, though, she ONLY willingly eats meat, and turns her nose at vegetables, peanut butter, and any treat that isn't meat-based.

From Wikipedia, on wolves:
Wolves primarily feed on medium to large sized ungulates. Medium and small sized animals that may supplement the diet of wolves include marmots, beaver, hares, badgers, foxes, weasels, ground squirrels, mice, hamsters, voles and other rodents, as well as insectivores. They frequently eat waterfowl.

When such foods are insufficient, they will prey on lizards, snakes, frogs, rarely toads and large insects as available. In times of scarcity, wolves will readily eat carrion, visiting cattle burial grounds and slaughter houses. Wolf packs in Astrakhan will hunt Caspian seals on the Caspian Sea coastline. Some wolf packs in Alaska and Western Canada have been observed to feed on salmon. Cannibalism is not uncommon in wolves; during harsh winters, packs often attack weak or injured wolves, and may eat the bodies of dead pack members.

That sounds pretty carnivorous to me. Granted that's a wolf's diet, but there isn't too much genetic difference between dogs and wolves, I believe. If this vet stumbled upon a pack of hungry wolves in the wild, I'm sure he wouldn't say, "don't worry, they won't eat me, since there's a mixed salad and some grains right over there!"


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

Answer to question..YES!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

One thing about vets you'll find general agreement on around here, is that many if not most seem to know doodly squat about what to feed. They spout whatever nonsense their pet food rep tells them to say. Ditto for vaccination "booster" requirements. As far as I'm concerned, their attitudes about these two areas tells me everything I need to know.

I'd find a new vet.


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

I wouldn't use the vet's food advice as a reason to drop him/her. As others have said, very few vets know $### from shinola when it comes to diet and nutrition just like most human general practitioners don't know anything about it, either.

I drop a vet if: 

- they won't listen to me
- they get defensive or combative when I question their diagnosis/reasoning
- they aren't receptive to looking at innovative (but tested!) treatments when the standard isn't working
- they don't recognize that I've got a better handle on my pets' behavior than they do. I live with my pets. They don't. If I think there's a problem, something is wrong. Promise.
- they don't advise me on potential side effects and drug interactions (I do my own research anyway, been burned by this too many times)
- they repeatedly prescribe a drug when my pet has already reacted badly to it. They have a chart. They need to read it.
- they fail to run diagnostics I've requested, OR run tests without my permission and then try to charge me for it!

*Sigh* I've been through a LOT of vets.


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## momtymztu (Mar 27, 2012)

KidWhisperer said:


> We took Sammi to her first vet checkup on Monday, and in the course of conversation, he began to disparage those "natural dog food companies" who tout meat as their first ingredient. He says that meat should _not _be the first ingredient, since dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores. He says his patients on natural dog foods are all overweight, yet they stay hungry. He says with the extra protein comes fat.:dontknow:
> 
> Hmmm...my internal alarm bells have been ringing since I left the vet's office. But I am new at this, and trying to research all sides of everything dog-related. Can anyone steer me in the right direction regarding this matter? Is my vet correct or a quack?


Although I haven't been to vet school myslef, it is my understanding that they get very little training regarding nutrition unless they specialize or seek out the coursework themselvs. That is what I have been told by several vets that I deal with (and have worked for) in both small and large animal medicine. It doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad vet or a quack overall.

That being said...If you are not comfortable with him or you don't feel like he is flexible enough to consider your opinions then I would find another vet ASAP. A really good vet should at least listen to your thoughts regarding YOUR animal, you will know your dog better than anyone else. If he is not willing to consider that a more natural diet could be healthier then he may not be flexible on vaccine protocal or spay and neuter ages or whatever other issues you may need his help on. 

For example: When I got my Aussie (whom I recently lost at almost 12 yrs) my regular vet was out of town and I had a window of time to get a puppy check per his breeders contract. So, I saw one of the newer vets in the practice. My Aussies breeder had very strict guidelines regarding heartworm medications...absolutely NO IVERMECTIN. Not only does the breed have a tendency towards sensitivities to it but my dogs line had known cases of Ivermectin Toxicity as well as...however this vet actually argued with me about it. I had written instructions from the breeder and he still argued with me and told me he'd never heard of such a thing and it was ridiculous not to use Heartguard(ivermectin). Needless to say I NEVER saw that vet again and would not have trusted anything he had to say to me in the future.

Sorry this is long, but my point is that you need a vet that you are comfortable with and confident in. I can contact my current vet for anything and if she doesn't know about a new food or whatever, she'll check into it, form an opinion and get back to me. She's great! She has even been known to switch her dogs to brands of food AFTER I asked her about it for my own dogs...we don't always agree but she is flexible within her own professional comfort zone. 

Good luck, it can be hard to find a great vet sometimes, but ask around and find out who others in your area use and trust and why.


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## momtymztu (Mar 27, 2012)

lwm1984 said:


> Insofar as dog's are descended from wolves, I'd say they are more carnivorous, although my spoo does like her grass when her tummy is upset. In general, though, she ONLY willingly eats meat, and turns her nose at vegetables, peanut butter, and any treat that isn't meat-based.
> 
> 
> That sounds pretty carnivorous to me. Granted that's a wolf's diet, but there isn't too much genetic difference between dogs and wolves, I believe. If this vet stumbled upon a pack of hungry wolves in the wild, I'm sure he wouldn't say, "don't worry, they won't eat me, since there's a mixed salad and some grains right over there!"


Too funny...do you think the vet and a few of those grain based dog food reps would be willing to test out the theory?!?! :laugh:


I do tend to think domestic dogs lean a little more towards omnivorous than wolves do...which does not in my mind equate to feeding a corn/grain based kibble (yuck). My dogs love fruits and veggies both...green peas,green beans,broccoli,carrots,zucchini,squash,pumkin,apples,bananas,strawberrys, oranges, they'll even try lettuce if it hits the floor...but mine might just be a little strange. 

I think I read somewhere that wolves get what vegetation they need primarily from the stomach contents of their prey...so they probably wouldn't choose to eat a tossed salad but they do have some nutrient requirements that fruits/veggies/grains would provide.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

A lot of vets aren't "raw friendly." If the he's all vehement about it, to the extent that you feel uncomfortable, or he berates you, then that might not be the vet for you. If you respect him otherwise, then not liking raw alone isn't necessarily a reason to drop him.

My vet isn't a fan of raw, but I like him and find him very competent and thorough other than that little quirk, and he doesn't lecture me about it, so we're cool. 

--Q


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

On wolves and dogs, diet-wise:
Myths


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I thought dogs are "opportunistic omnivores" - meaning they would rather eat meat but other things are fair game when starving, like scraps found in a dumpster. Domestic dogs were more scavengers anyway so they have a wider diet than wolves.

Sounds like the views expressed by that vet are his personal views, but it's up to you to see how you feel about him pushing his personal views onto your dog. I really can't believe he blames the overweight issue on natural foods. Perhaps those owners are feeding too much - you can still gain weight on the "good stuff" if there is too much of it. 

I held my breath when I told my vet I was feeding raw, but he didn't even raise an eyebrow. I even declined a fecal exam and bordatella. Did he berate me? Nope. They just informed me what the tests were for, but ultimately they let me decide without feeling guilty about it. If someone makes you feel bad about your decisions or lifestyle, than that is not a healthy relationship.

I was feeding Nature's Variety pre-made raw patties for a month (due to traveling), and when I finally got fresh bone-in meat and ground raw, Leroy perked up and RAN to his crate (he's fed in there). I've never seen that reaction with veggies, or even the NV patties which contain veggies & fruits. I pour excess blood into the bowls for the dogs to lick up. They are in heaven. Tell me that's not a carnivore!


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## Clicker (Apr 28, 2012)

I would ditch this vet!!! Dogs ARE NOT omnivores! Your vet is a QUACK! Period.


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## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

If you are questioning whether to ditch the vet, that is not the right vet for you. You should have confidence in your vet and your vet should listen to you and have discussions about options for treatment, etc.


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## KidWhisperer (Apr 3, 2012)

*Thanks!*

I ditched the vet! You all were right...I just wasn't 100%comfortable with him, even in the past when he was treating my sick rabbit (RIP Coconut Buckman). Too bad, as I really love the office staff and vet techs who work there.

We are trying out a new vet tomorrow that is closer to our house. They gave me a tour, and showed me their shot schedule, which seems very cautious and conservative. Also, their website lists recommended dog foods from the grocery store, pet food store, and the local specialty pet food shop (I guess depending on what you can afford). Options are always good in my book. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes tomorrow. Thanks again!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Good luck with the new vet. My vet doesn't like raw at all. He had some very good reasons for not liking it, but he is great with the grain frees and other natural foods. Of course, he is also fine with store bought food, although he put his foot down on Old Roy (garbage food, he says). I like my vet because even though he recommends doing things one way, he isn't opposed to me doing them my own way (like the vaccines). I don't mind differences of opinion as long as no lecture is attached.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I, too, am looking for a new vet. I have had battles over vaccines, mdr1 mutation issues and the like (along with some personal reasons). The last straw was very recently and regarding my Bugman and the treatment of my GSD. I am so disappointed and hurt, I am leaving him. The casual attitude and dismissal regarding my opinions and extensive research have really gotten to me over the years. 
Follow your gut instinct and good luck with your new vet.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with several comments... utter nonsense! Most vets buy their dog food at a wholesale price and then add a chunk of profit to what they are selling... of course they will advise feeding your dog the dog food they sell - they're making money off of it. 

I worked for a vet clinic for a very long time and you'd be surprised how little vets know about dog nutrition. 

Ponki was diagnosed with pancreatitis 3 years ago... the vet first told me to put her on a prescription diet where the first ingredient was wheat (she's highly allergic to wheat) then told me to put her back on the SAME food she was on before which would have worsen her condition not to mention she could have probably died or developed diabetes or something much worse. If it wasn't for a dear friend of mine who advised me to put my dog on a home cooked diet I don't know what I would have done. I switched vets very quickly after that!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

KidWhisperer said:


> We took Sammi to her first vet checkup on Monday, and in the course of conversation, he began to disparage those "natural dog food companies" who tout meat as their first ingredient. He says that meat should _not _be the first ingredient, since dogs are omnivores and cats are carnivores. He says his patients on natural dog foods are all overweight, yet they stay hungry. He says with the extra protein comes fat.:dontknow:
> 
> Hmmm...my internal alarm bells have been ringing since I left the vet's office. But I am new at this, and trying to research all sides of everything dog-related. Can anyone steer me in the right direction regarding this matter? Is my vet correct or a quack?


haha, that's actually funny. Dogs are omnivores. BUT, many dogs do very well with carnivore diets. There are life stage exceptions and there are quite a few dogs that initially thrive on grain free diets but do poorly after a few months.

Now "real meat is the first ingredient" and all the fuss about "by-product" does peeve me. Dogs need organ meat. And organ meat IS "by-product". Meat by-product is not what most people think of. It is a regulated ingredient with a legal definition.

Grains are digestible to dogs. Less digestible than other ingredients. Dogs can digest roughly 70% of the protein in grains. Their bodies work a little harder to do it. Some grains are more known for causing problems for dogs (like corn). Some dogs thrive on cheap high-grain foods. Other dogs do not!

Grain free kibbles are not stricly carnivorous diets. They often contain oats, potatoes, apples, and other grain and fiber ingredients. 

*Dogs get overweight from excess calories.* Protein and carbs have the same number of calories per gram. His statement is only equally as true as if he had said that carbs make dogs fat. BUT, fat has more calories per gram than carbs or protein. Grain free diets are usually higher in fat. It doesn't really matter whether the excess calories are from protein, fat, or carbs. Dogs don't get overweight from eating high protein foods - they get overweight from overfeeding.

I feed a wide variety to my dog. Sometimes it is raw diet. Sometimes it is grain free kibble. Sometimes it is calorie-dense not-grain-free kibble. I don't feed anything high in cereal grains (corn, rice oats, etc).

I say time for a new vet. Mostly because this one knows a whole lot more than he is saying. (He's talking down to you.) And he is letting his personal feelings about marketing tactics sway his professional judgement.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

lwm1984 said:


> That sounds like nonsense to me. Since I started feeding my spoo raw, she's actually lost weight. I even had to increase her food well past Nature's Variety's feeding calculator, since I feel like she's definitely too skinny.
> 
> Insofar as dog's are descended from wolves, I'd say they are more carnivorous, although my spoo does like her grass when her tummy is upset. In general, though, she ONLY willingly eats meat, and turns her nose at vegetables, peanut butter, and any treat that isn't meat-based.
> 
> ...


Wolf packs under observation (no human intervention or contact) eat certain grasses - they actually seek out grasses that they like, they eat apples, berries and other non-meat foods, even when hunting is good. They also get non-meat food from the parts of their prey's digestive system that they will eat. It's common in the USA to find blueberry and strawberry remains in wolf scat. In other countries where wolves are tracked, they find wolves feeding in vineyard.

Wolf diet varies quite a bit by region, with North American wolves being more carnivorous than Eurasian.

The full report is available online. There is also a great text that is available on Google books. Another excellent resource is the Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and Training volume 1 with a section on the origin of the dog.

Domestication is not taming. Domestication produces morphological, genetic changes. The end result is a different animal. Marketing and the media are playing-up the dog-wolf connection when it is not nearly as strong as most people expect.


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## KidWhisperer (Apr 3, 2012)

tortoise said:


> I say time for a new vet. Mostly because this one knows a whole lot more than he is saying. (He's talking down to you.) And he is letting his personal feelings about marketing tactics sway his professional judgement.


Well said, and that is a very good point. If that is true, than I'm especially glad that I switched vets. I despise being talked down to by medical professionals, and I deal with a lot of them.


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## Clicker (Apr 28, 2012)

Clicker said:


> I would ditch this vet!!! Dogs ARE NOT omnivores! Your vet is a QUACK! Period.


I guess I am wrong about dogs not being omnivores as pointed out by some more knowledgeable members than I. :sorry: That's what I love about P/F. All the great info! Happy to hear you found another vet! 

I think I am going to start looking for a new vet. I feel that I do have a good vet (and is VERY close) but always feel like I'm being rushed out. I have used another vet with my last dog (as well as my current vet with that same dog). The other vet I used always took any amount of time I wanted to talk and explain any questions I had, but, were also more expensive and farther away. 

I think I'm going to shop around Saturday morning, (most are open) and "interview" them.

Suggestions for questions I should ask? to see if I "Hire" them.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Clicker said:


> I guess I am wrong about dogs not being omnivores as pointed out by some more knowledgeable members than I. :sorry: That's what I love about P/F. All the great info! Happy to hear you found another vet!
> 
> I think I am going to start looking for a new vet. I feel that I do have a good vet (and is VERY close) but always feel like I'm being rushed out. I have used another vet with my last dog (as well as my current vet with that same dog). The other vet I used always took any amount of time I wanted to talk and explain any questions I had, but, were also more expensive and farther away.
> 
> ...


If feeling rushed is your only complaint, maybe you can fix that? Try emailing your questions in advance. That way they will feel prepared and your questions will be answered. Some topics are difficult to discuss during a routine exam because of limited time (like nutrition). If your vet doesn't need to touch or examine your dog in order to answer your question, try phone or email. (It's free too  ) The other thing to do is to ask the receptionist for an appointment at a less-busy time or day. They would rather spend time with you and your poo than do paperwork or read current research. At my fiance's clinic, 2:00 - 3:00 is a slow time almost every day of the week, but especially Tuesday through Thursday. Most clinics do procedures/surgeries first thing in the morning and are effectively short-staffed until 10 or 11. Don't be embarassed about asking your questions. Vets almost universally love to have clients that are involved in their pet's care and want to learn to do their best. They're also used to people who call DAILY with questions that most people use google to find the answer to.

A good vet can be hard to find. You might have a good thing going on. One reason to stay with a vet is they get a sense of what you know. Which means if you're fairly educated, you're going to start getting long answers and be more involved in deciding your pet's care. My fiance always gives me the client answer first - the short version that doesn't require any scientific knowledge to understand. Then I give him "the look" and he says the rest of it. It's amazing how much they have to edit out in order to give a comprehensible answer for the average pet owner. If you can stay with a vet long enough that you get the long answers, you will get more for your money and be able to make better choices for your pets.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Dogs are obligate carnivores. They do eat some grains, fruits and the like naturally, but the bulk of their diet should be meat.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

outwest said:


> Dogs are obligate carnivores. They do eat some grains, fruits and the like naturally, but the bulk of their diet should be meat.


Dogs are not obligate carnivores. The definition of an obligate carnivore is an animal that must eat the flesh of other animals to survive. It cannot obtain or process all the nutrients it needs from plant sources. Cats are obligate carnivores. 

Dogs can get all the necessary nutrients they need to survive on a properly-formulated vegetarian diet if need be. I'm not saying that dogs should eat vegetarian diets and that they don't like meat over just about anything, but physiologically, they are not obligate carnivores, they are omnivores.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Re. question

A vet is someone you are paying for a service. If a vet or anyone else who works there is rude or disrespectful to you, find another one and make sure the first one knows why. Your vet should be able to give you advice and an informed opinion, but should ultimately respect your own decisions. The same goes for people in the medical profession. If a medic attempts to treat you without your consent, then unless you have been sectioned or are unconscious and grievously injured and they are trying to save your life, this is an assault on your person. I know too many people who have been traumatised by things like this happening to them, particularly women who have been giving birth and get taken advantage of while in a vulnerable position. Make sure you know your rights, and don't put up with bad behaviour from professionals.

Re. derailment

'Humans are omnivores' therefore as traditional Inuits live primarily on raw meat and fat and vegans live on vegetation, both of them must be malnourished and sick and unhealthy and unnatural (and yes, there are people around arguing about what humans should eat on the Internet -- mostly peta imbeciles claiming that meat is poisonous and humans have 'gentle herbivorous bodies' (Ha) but also a few fanatical RAF paleo people who think no human should ever eat anything but raw meat and fat).

In reality, there is little evidence to suggest that either vegans or traditional Inuits are any more or less healthy than other people, the same as there is little evidence to suggest any particular type of food for dogs is better than any other. Just because something is observed to eat something else when it is struggling for survival in a wild setting does not mean there is any sort of logical argument that this is the best and only thing it should eat. Feed your dog whatever it enjoys and whatever you personally think is best for it, but respect others' rights to do the same.


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## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

Well said, zyrcona!


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