# RAW Menus: Hits & Misses & Experiences



## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

Like myself, I follow Ayurveda principles when feeding. 
This week I'm adding Steak for beef. I tried ground beef a while ago, lightly & fully cooked, and it gave her huge mushy poops). Whoa!

RAW start date: 12 NOV 10. 

7-8 oz RMBs (Turkey wings, Turkey necks, Canned Sardines, Salmon, Mackerel,

Chx necks, Chx wings)

6-7 oz Meat (Turkey breast, thigh, Chx breast, thigh, Leg meat, Steak (new this week)

1-1.5 oz Organ (Mix- Chix heart, Beef liver, Thymus Gland)
(Mix- Beef heart, Tripe, Chx heart- new this week)

Fiber (Fed as Treats separate from meals)
2 oz Sweet Pots 
2 oz Pumpkin 

Digestion (served after each meal)
2-4 TBSP Organic Yoghurt
1/2 TBSP Dry Buttermilk (Acid, Eliminates tear stains, weepy eyes, and makes digestion stronger) -Worked better than Tylan
Sometimes- Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar (Acid component)

Supplements
Vit E (daily)
Vit C (1-2x week)
2 Caps Fish Oil (Daily,except when I feed canned fish)
2-4 oz Cooked Knox Gelatin for joint health (fed as snack)
-Want to try chicken feet soon
Water- Spring or Distilled (No water with meals)

Store bought Treats- Duck or Beef plain jerky treats
Homemade- Peanut Butter nuggets
Whole Egg- 1-2x Week

*Nap after meals in crate for at least an hour
( After she vomited on 2 different occasions when she got a case of the Zoomies)

I also added 1 TBSP of Dr. Pitcairns Healthy Green Powder: 
2 cups nutritional yeast 
1 cup lecithin granules 
1/4 cup kelp powder 
1/4 cup bone meal (or 9.000 milligrams calcium or 5 teaspoons eggshell powder) 

Due to a mild case of Bloat last week, I have removed it from her diet. I was going to after I finished it, anyways. IMHO, I don't like their diets. 
Food first! Chemicals (vitamins) second. 
I feed C because I don't feed fruits or vegs, and E is awesome for Iron absorption. Canned fish can also cause an E deficiency.

Another thing I change was instead of given a separate bone & boneless meal, Now, I feed a bone meal and meat together. Meat only on both.
Hopefully, this will prevent any more digestive problems. 
For now 3 smaller meals, but hopefully we can go back to 2.
It was really scary seeing my poor baby panting and gassy for 2 days

Please share your Menu and experiences. 
How did RAW help your poodle?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have been feeding raw since 11/23/10. I feed prey model raw, 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. I try to feed as large a variety as I can of different muscle meats and organs. I feed twice daily and generally feed 3 boneless meals and then 1 bone-in meal, repeating that cycle. I have only introduced chicken, turkey and pork thus far. I will be introducing beef next. 

Boneless items I feed: Pork heart, pork tongue, pork snout, pork roast, pork tenderloin, turkey heart, boneless turkey thigh, boneless turkey breast, boneless chicken breast, chicken and/or turkey gizzards

Bone-in items I feed: Turkey necks, turkey legs, turkey wings (though these are quite bony and make me nervous) chicken quarters, chicken breasts, pork ribs

Organs: I am still introducing these but I have tried pork liver and spleen so far. In time, 50% of the organs I feed will be liver and the other 50% will be kidney, spleen, sweatbread, thymus, pancreas, etc. 

The only supplements I add include:
*Apple Cider Vinegar _occasionally_
*Salmon Oil
*Probiotics

I do not feed vegetables because they get all of the vitamins and minerals they need from meat/bone/organ. Dogs do not easily digest nutrients from raw vegetables. All of the meat/bone/organ that I feed is completely raw. I do not feed anything cooked in their diet except for treats, of course 

I also add the occasional raw egg, chicken foot, raw pig ear as a treat. 

Henry eats 3% of his body weight so he eats 28 ounces of raw daily. 
Millie eats 2-2.5% of her body weight so she eats 16-19 oz. daily. 

Since starting raw Millie finally has consistent, firm stool. On kibble she had chronic diarrhea episodes. She no longer vomits from eating too fast like she did with kibble. She is forced to take her time and rip apart meat rather than inhale pellets. 

Henry no longer has the acid reflux that he began having right after his bloat/torsion surgery. I believe that RAW is much better for him because he bloated.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia, what are Ayurveda principles??


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow - lot of work! No veggies or fruit here, I don't see the point unless I am trying to get some more substance in without the weight gain or throwing a carrot  I will have to check out Ayurveda...never heard of it. 

I feed Raw Meaty bones and fish/sardines weekly including liver - So no supplements here. :act-up: If I chose to I might add fish oil. 

My dogs eat 2 meals a day SO EASY - meat is divided bi-weekly or monthly into containers for the week so NO PREP and I feed based of a 1 - 2% ratio of their weight. (meats are all frozen until the week intended to eat)

Chicken is almost always one meal.

The second meal would be pork, beef, lamb, fish/sardines

Liver is thrown in somewhere through out the week. (I am surprised to see you have organ in your diet so early - I did not introduce organ until 3 months in)

Raw was a blessing for Suri who we are sure has IBS. She went from weekly diarrhea bouts and not eating, stomach growling and losing weight, down to 37lbs. She now weighs 50lbs, has fun! No runs and gladly eats whatever we put in front of her. 

Olie - he's been on Raw since he was a pup so no big comparisons there.

The Poms gladly eat! They were so picky and thin. They shed very little and their coats are amazing.

Aoki was a bit of a skitzy dog from day 1 - she has been on Raw a year now and she has made behavioral and social changes - BELIEVE IT - eating this food my dogs are happy, excited to play hard and are more obedient. I know Raw played a key part in the positive changes.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

BPP I am with you I do not feed veggies and I keep things as simple as possible. I have a freezer full of RMBs, Meaty Meat and Organs. I stick several days worth of food in the fridge to thaw, and I just try to balance over time. 

I am only 6 weeks in and have already introduced organs. This was against one group's advice but followed the advice of another group :rolffleyes: My poodles seem to have iron guts with raw feeding and I was having major "fossil poop" episodes so I threw some liver in there to "soften" things up. Much to my surprise I never had any splarts so I have been adding liver in almond size portions to RMB meals.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

I feed my little guy raw too. I think it's been around a month (maybe a bit more) so I haven't introduced all the variety I can, but so far it's like this:

RMBs: Chicken necks, chicken wings, chicken thighs.

MMs: boneless chicken breast/thigh, ground turkey, ground beef, chicken gizzards.

OM: chicken liver, beef liver.

I also give him canned pumpkin and Sammy snacks (carob and cranberry).

(Also forgot to say that I try to give him a low-sodium diet since he's had a stage 1 heart murmur for years now).

I have a question though, since Persia mentioned slightly/fully cooked beef. Does anyone else here cook the beef and give the rest raw?
Is this because of the E Coli risk?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ruth - I do not feed anything cooked whatsoever (other than treats) as I feed a 100% raw diet. I feed raw beef and I am not concerned about E Coli. They got chunks of raw beef arm roast tonight. 

I do not feed ground meats though and they are more often contaminated though even contaminated meat should not be an issue for healthy dogs. The main reason I do not feed ground meats is A) its super expensive around here, and B) because they do not have the dental benefit of ripping apart meat if it is already ground and mushy. Nutrient-wise, ground meat is just fine, IMO.

I am new to this like you, though, so I am still learning


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

You're right about ground beef. Sadly I can mostly find the turkey in that form only, and sometimes not even that. 

What cuts of beef would you use instead of ground beef?

EDIT: Forgot to say I'm looking to add beef heart to my dogs' menu soon too.

Persia, heart would be muscle meat instead of organ.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I just get whatever is cheapest and nonenhanced. I ended up with arm roast and sirloin steak when I went to the grocery store last week. I think pretty much whatever you can find is fine  

The ground turkey I have found is something like $5.00/pound...no thank you! I could buy a lamb breast for cheaper than that.

ETA: If you aren't able to find turkey at a decent cost, or at all, I have been told by seasoned raw feeders that turkey really isn't all that necessary. I mean try to include it for variety but red meats from large mammals is most important. I still like to feed it for variety and I use turkey necks for bone.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

Hehe, oh ok! Great! And now that I think about it, one variety I get of ground beef is actually sirloin so... duh! Go me!

Thank you, ChocolateMillie. 

ETA: As you said, I try to add it for variety. I'm still looking for other protein sources, I'm a bit scared of fish and pork here. I myself am scared of eating them even cooked! Especially since I already got very very VERY sick once with pork food poisoning, and never even ate pork again after that. Definitely not want that for my dogs!

EDITED AGAIN: And I forgot to say the biggest change I have seen on my mini poodle, was his TEETH!! He used to have horribly stained teeth, even if I tried cleaning them and using "cleaning treats" (that didn't do anything btw) and there was no way I was going to put a 10-year-old doggie under anesthesia to have them cleaned!!
And now he has whiter, brighter teeth. Most of the tartar buildup is GONE.
I actually got scared when checking his teeth cause I thought he had chipped one of his molars. Nope, the "chip" was where a big dark stain used to be, leaving the white visible.

YAY for raw food!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I just get whatever is cheapest and nonenhanced.
> The ground turkey I have found is something like $5.00/pound...no thank you! I could buy a lamb breast for cheaper than that.
> 
> ETA: If you aren't able to find turkey at a decent cost, or at all, I have been told by seasoned raw feeders that turkey really isn't all that necessary. I mean try to include it for variety but red meats from large mammals is most important. I still like to feed it for variety and I use turkey necks for bone.


Agree - cheapest is better then I can splurge on the beef and lamb. 


Totally agree with the turkey. I stock up on turkey from the holiday sales and then once thats gone they rarely have it unless I catch a sale. I would rather buy 3 x's the chicken parts and increase my flexibility to buy the red meat proteins and pork - my dogs LOVE pork. 

There are many Raw feeders that only feed a couple proteins because its hard to get some meats for reasonable deals. Its perfectly fine as long as they get their mix of bone, protein and organ. 

Fresh fish is not liked by any dogs here so I buy the salmon and sardines they offer at the store.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

My base for my dogs's menu is chicken, mainly because it's easier to find and cheap! 
But I do add the turkey and/or beef to each of their meals for variety.

I also introduced organs after 3 weeks or so. I started with very small amounts, not bigger than a fingernail, and slowly added a bit more, but not so much. Right now I give each of them almond size pieces, like Millie said. I'll continue adding a little bit every week til I get to the 5% of their daily meals.

Millie, what do you use the Apple cider vinegar for? And how do you give it to them?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Ruth said:


> Millie, what do you use the Apple cider vinegar for? And how do you give it to them?


I just pour a cap full on top of their meal a couple times a week. It is supposed to do good things and help with detox when first starting raw. I don't actually know specifically what it does...:act-up: But, I bought a couple big bottles of Bragg Raw Apple Cider Vinegar when I first started raw so I am just using those bottles up. I am not one of those people who believes in "miracle supplements" so I figure it probably doesn't hurt to use it but I doubt its anything absolutely necessary.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

Millie, I can't remember exactly, but in another forum I read somebody said they added it to the drinking water for reflux (I think?), but I read that long ago and I could never find it again.

Maybe that was it? I guess it wouldn't hurt them.

I used canned pumpkin to help them adjust to raw, but they did very well so I just continue giving it to them as a snack. 
Oh, and as a filler to my fat German Shepherd so she loses some weight. :biggrin1:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think ACV is supposed to help with allergies and digestive issues. I haven't necessarily noticed anything when I do or don't use it. If it helps with reflux that is another plus! Henry had issues with that for awhile before starting raw.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

I do not remember exactly if that was what they said it was for, but I'll continue looking and tell you what I find!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

We're not very structured around here. It's usually what's on sale and what's thawed out at the time. I have been feeding raw for seven years now and see huge benefits in health. 

My kids get chicken most of the time - depends on what's on sale - hind quarters, legs or thighs. I just bought a bunch of thighs on sale for $1.00/pound and that is kind of pricey. Usually I can get hind quarters for 39 cents/pound. I keep buying a little bit here and there waiting for a sale.... the freezer is low! :lol: I also feed beef and turkey when it's on sale. I use Honest Kitchen's Preference (dehydrated veggies) in with the meats - not as much as they recommend though (they would like you to add a LOT!). I will occasionally add pumpkin, yogurt or cottage cheese to their meals if I pick some up at the store. I keep cans of mackrel and peas in the dog cupboard for an "emergency meal" if I don't have something thawed out for them. 

They also get bottled water - the water where I live is not very good.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I started Mia on raw in September, a few weeks after I got her. Her diet is based on PMR, but as she rarely gets a whole animal (head and all), I can't really say that I feed a true PMR diet. I do try to stick to the 80-10-10 rule. I'm pretty casual about it - I buy whatever is cheap, and she gets a mix of chicken, beef, fish, turkey and pork weekly, plus occasional rabbit and lamb. I just package everything up into 1 lb meals, make sure to include organs and heart in her beef and chicken meals, and let the rest go.

I thrived on an Ayurvedic diet when I lived in India - I love my rajasic foods. But I don't know how I would adopt these principles for a dog - it seems to me that foods affect humans and dogs in different ways, so foods that are tamasic or rajasic for us, may not be the same for dogs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Liz, I suppose I don't feed true PMR either as I don't feed whole prey. I am PMR inspred  Though, I did just order some whole prey rabbits from My Pet Carnivore!!! That will be interesting...


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

wow your working WAY to hard *LOL* 

My guys get Ground chicken (just cuz well that's how i get it and it's cheap) 5 days a week then a day of chicken backs/thighs etc. 
Tripe and or organs are thrown into the mix about 5 days a month. When we get other food they sometimes go onto it wholly for aweek or two or are given it with their chicken depends on what we get. 

Salmon oil about 3 days a week for all of them. The old boy gets a herbal stress supplement right now.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

CM - Chinese New Year is February 3, and next year is the year of the rabbit. I know it's still a month away, but Mia's got a frozen rabbit waiting for her


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

IA, waaaay too much work!!  Riley has been eating raw for oh, 8 years now. We are very loose and easy around here. No veggies, no supplements, no problem. 

Rileys base food is chicken. Its cheap and lean. He has been eating alot of chicken since this summer when i was trying to get his weight down. He was eating less then 1 pound a day (is now eating about 1 pound/day). He is 74lbs. He had an injury which he had to be very confined for. Also, he was on/is on steroids, and they changed his metabolism. He used to eat 2 pounds and never had a weight issue. 

Anyways, i like to feed chicken, pork, turkey, some beef, venison if i can get it, and rabbit when i can. Big meaty hunks are the best. Ok, i take back the no supplement thing. He gets supplemented with popcorn, cheese, bread crusts, omlets, pancakes, lunch meat, eggs, etc.  Obviously not all the time!! I also still feed him kibble sometimes. I always have a small bag on hand just in case. One to keep him used to eating it. Another as an emergency meal. Also, if something were to happen to me then he would have to go back on kibble. 

I feed based on prey model principle, but i am obviously not that strict or worried about it. My dog does well, gets balanced food over time, good bloodwork, good muslce tone, happy, etc.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> IA, waaaay too much work!!


Lol!!!!!!!


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

*Bragg's Apple Cider Vinegar info*



Ruth said:


> Millie, I can't remember exactly, but in another forum I read somebody said they added it to the drinking water for reflux (I think?), but I read that long ago and I could never find it again.
> 
> Maybe that was it? I guess it wouldn't hurt them.
> 
> ...


You are right about the ACV. I love pumpkin more. ;') Glad to see you use it, too. I freeze and use 2 oz daily. It's digested as a carb not a veg. I concur with everyone, dogs don't need vegs. I use it for its Fiber benefits which are excellent! A must to prevent fossil poops/constipation and keep things right. (too funny!) Pumpkin also prevents diarrhea, so if your dog, suffer from IBS, again, please try. Fiber also absorbs extra fat, and we don't want any of that staying in our pups' bodies.

Apple Cider Vinegar- I suggest Bragg's because it contains the Mother. They also have tablets. ACV is a PH balancer between acid and alkaline. ACV adds the acid that many of us are lacking.


Dogs: Acid Reflux- Diet high in calcium and protein can cause this. Sounds like our pups!
1/2- 1 TSP in food. I don't suggest adding it to water, because it can hurt their teeth enamel.
Balances dog's system (adds acid) and prevents grass yellow spots from urine and neutralizes tears. 

I keep a bottle of Bragg's in the bath and another in the kitchen. I personally like it for its tonic benefits and its suggestive use for fat burning. ACV contains chromium, which is also use for fat burning. 

My morning drink. Can be taken before 30 minutes before meals if you have a sluggish system. More acidic stomach juices equals stronger digestion. Same concept as 'lemon in your water.'

I mix half a glass of water (room temp) with 3-4 capfuls of Bragg's ACV. Vigorously stir 2-3 spoonfuls of honey. Add ice. Delicious! Taste like a tart apple juice. (If you use cold water, the honey doesn't mix in well). Buy a good quality, fragrant tasting honey. Use straw, aim back. Take care of teeth enamel. 

Beauty. PH balancer. Residue remover. 
Once a week I use this rinse after shamp/cond. Mix ACV with water (1/2 & 1/2) and leave on hair for 2-3 minute. Rinse with cold water. I add 2-3 drops of rosemary oil which is good for haircare. I enjoy shiny lively hair. My hair is waist length and I dye and highlight. People always think I have extensions. 

If you have oily skin- Mix a little ACV and water in the cap. Pour on a cosmetic cotton puff and use as stringent. 
Normally, you have to wait 20 minutes to be able to apply lotions, but ACV balances right away. 
Good for acne as it sanitizes skin bacteria.


When I lived in Beijing, I developed dull skin that sometimes broke out due to the heavy pollution and ACV helped. 

The list of uses are endless on the internet.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Persia, what are Ayurveda principles??


It is Indian medicine based on proper nutrition and digestion to prevent disease and reverse aging. 

For dogs, food combination for better digestion and bloat prevention makes sense.
I'm really sorry Henry had the surgery for the stomach turning. 
Not sure if you posted already, but I'm interested in hearing more.

I am starting to learn about (dog) care, but because of my background it all makes a lot of sense. This forum is great for this and especially because it is about poodles.
After you posted in response to me about the panting and gas. I knew that it was a mild case of bloat with Persia as well.
The gas made sense. But the panting? That had me very worried.

She came back from the kennel with bad breath. The lady was very uncomfortable feeding her bones, so I told her it was ok, just to feed the canned fish instead. Her fur was also badly stained, because her mouth was never wiped. 

I tried brushing her teeth and a professional groom to no avail. During one of her chicken neck meal, I threw in a few extra pieces thinking it would help clean any bacteria causing the foul odor.
I learned my lesson, More is not better with dogs. I felt horrible.
Your response put everything into perspective and then I looked up bloat.

You know what? Not ONE of those 5 'so-called holistic' vets I called said one thing about bloat even though, I described all the symptons on the phone, or at least warned me about the dangers if it became worse.
ALL they cared about was giving me a good scolding about RAW.
For this, I'm grateful I read PF. 
People on here make more sense! Ooops,rant over! Lol!!!!!!!!



***Some basic concepts of an Ayurvedic Food Combining program include the following: 

•Avoid taking milk or yogurt with sour or citrus fruits. 

•Avoid eating fruits together with potatoes or other starchy foods. Fructose (and other sugars) is digested quickly, whereas starch takes quite some time. In this case the sugar would not be properly digested. 

•Avoid eating melons and grains together. Melons digest quickly whereas grains take more time. This combination will upset the stomach. Melons should be eaten alone or left alone. 

•Honey should never be cooked. Honey digests slowly when cooked and the molecules become a non-homogenized glue which adheres to mucous membranes and clogs subtle channels, producing toxins. Uncooked honey is nectar. Cooked honey is poison. 

•Do not eat meat protein and milk protein together. Meat is heating and milk is cooling so they counteract one another, disturb agni and produce ama. 

•Milk and melons should not be eaten together. Both are cooling, but milk is laxative and melon is diuretic, and milk requires more time for digestion. Moreover the action of hydrochloric acid in the stomach causes the milk to curdle. For this reason Ayurveda advises against taking milk with sour fruits, yogurt, sour cream, cheese, and fish. (This I break. Smoked salmon/cream cz bagel is my room service weakness).

Though, it is possible that if you don't follow some of these guidelines and have no problem, it simply means your body has adapted and is no longer affected.

Ayurveda insists that iced water should not be drunk during or after a meal as it slows agni and digestion. Small sips of warm water taken during the meal serves to aid digestion. While eating one should properly masticate the food in order to soften it and ensure that it is thoroughly mixed with saliva. If desired, one can finish a meal by drinking a cup of lassi (or takram). This can be made by blending four teaspoons of yogurt with two pinches of ginger and cumin powder in one cup of water. 

When eating, only one third of the capacity of the stomach should be filled with food, one third with liquid and one third should be left empty. This will aid in proper digestion and also promotes mental clarity. 

Sounds a lot like the purpose of RAW, and why I support it (if the dog can handle it, of course).


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

Liz said:


> I started Mia on raw in September, a few weeks after I got her. Her diet is based on PMR, but as she rarely gets a whole animal (head and all), I can't really say that I feed a true PMR diet. I do try to stick to the 80-10-10 rule. I'm pretty casual about it - I buy whatever is cheap, and she gets a mix of chicken, beef, fish, turkey and pork weekly, plus occasional rabbit and lamb. I just package everything up into 1 lb meals, make sure to include organs and heart in her beef and chicken meals, and let the rest go.
> 
> I thrived on an Ayurvedic diet when I lived in India - I love my rajasic foods. But I don't know how I would adopt these principles for a dog - it seems to me that foods affect humans and dogs in different ways, so foods that are tamasic or rajasic for us, may not be the same for dogs.


Mia is eating good!!! I'm still in the introduction phase. 
When she was little I used to give her RAW snacks, to see what she liked. I fed her 1 oz of organs since little. (For those that asked how she is tolerating organs so early).
My baby is a foodie like Mia! Could not be happier! 

I don't feed to pacify her dosha. If I had to diagnose, I would say Poodles are Vatas with a bit Pitta as they mature. I follow food combination for digestion ease, and fast exit of the tamasic foods I must feed her.
Any food that lingers in the body will ultimately cause disease. 

Obviously, we must be meat heavy but freshness is still important. While I avoid frozen foods myself, of course, I recommend freezing portioned meals and defrosting the night before serving.
I don't buy in bulk, though, I shop for 1-3 weeks worth of meals. Depends on sales and availability. 
While frozen foods do not spoil, I believe they lose vitality (nutrients) each month they are kept frozen.
Happy to hear Ayurveda helped your health!

For variety try ethnic markets. Chinese for 'parts.' Fresh pig's ear, cheap ox tail, snouth, cheap duck, chicken backs, chicken feet, quail eggs, etc. 
Indo/Pak for lamb riblets, etc.
Cheaper, too.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia said:


> It is Indian medicine based on proper nutrition and digestion to prevent disease and reverse aging.
> 
> For dogs, food combination for better digestion and bloat prevention makes sense.
> I'm really sorry Henry had the surgery for the stomach turning.
> Not sure if you posted already, but I'm interested in hearing more.


I have told his bloat story before but I couldn't find it all together in one place. So here goes...

Long story short, my parents and I were out of town and Henry was staying with my sister. She dropped him off at our house about 3 hours before we returned with a small amount of food and water. (Key factor: he hadn't eaten more than 1 meal the entire 5 days we were gone due to stress) We walked in the door and he was overly ecstatic to see us. Within minutes, though we noticed right something was wrong. He couldn't sit down because of the pain and then went outside and laid down in the grass. When he would sit he would shriek with pain and bite at his stomach. He started spinning in circles and yelping while biting is side. He rolled on the ground like a horse that has colic. He was not obviously bloated but bloat was the first thing that came to mind. We rushed him to the E-Vet who also told us he did not have bloat. They x-rayed him only to confirm that his stomach was, in fact, twisted. They rushed him into surgery and told us they did not know if he would make it. They explained that even if he did make it we would have to wait and see how much tissue survived because often dogs will die after a successful emergency bloat surgery due to tissue death. Someone was watching over Henry that night because, after what seemed like an eternity, the vet updated us and said his stomach looked wonderful. No tissue death at all. So, we have him still today and he is healthy as ever. 

We won't ever know exactly what caused him to bloat. I think it was a combination of predisposition, stress and a meal on an empty belly. I try to keep things as stress free as possible for Henry and I always make sure he has at least something in his belly.

So many factors went right that night. On our way home from the airport, my mom and I almost stopped at restaurant for dinner. Time is crucial with torsion and he may not have survived if we had done that. Also, we thought about postponing our flight another day. My dad, who was on a separate work trip and would have been at home with Henry had we stayed an extra day, would have never known that something so seriously could be wrong.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

*Ayurveda: Sattvic, Rajasic, Tamasic*



Liz said:


> I thrived on an Ayurvedic diet when I lived in India - I love my rajasic foods. But I don't know how I would adopt these principles for a dog - it seems to me that foods affect humans and dogs in different ways, so foods that are tamasic or rajasic for us, may not be the same for dogs.


Internet excerpt. Enjoy!
I know it's long, but Ayurveda is not a fad or diet. It's holistic healing much like Chinese medicine.
There is a lot to learn. Some fun, most of it is scientific. In India, people attend college for 4-6 years and when they graduate they are consider Ayurvedic physicians, _vaidyas,_, and work in healthcare. 

Introduction: Ayurveda, an ancient holistic science of healing, offers a logical and scientific approach for determining correct diet based upon an individual's constitution. Vata, pitta and kapha; the tri-dosha, are the elements which comprise individual constitution. This approach is quite different from the "traditional" view of a balanced diet; viz., eating daily from the basic food groups; meat, dairy, fruit, grains and vegetables. According to Ayurvedic literature, such a scheme is insufficient to lead us to the path of good health. 

According to Ayurveda, every food has its own taste (rasa), a heating or cooling energy (virya) and post-digestive effect (vipak). When two or three different food substances of different taste, energy and post-digestive effect are combined together agni can become overloaded inhibiting the enzyme system and resulting in production of toxins in the system. While it is true that an individual's agni largely determines how well or poorly food is digested, food combinations are also of great importance. When foods, (proteins, carbohydrates and fats) having different attributes, tastes, heating or cooling properties, and post-digestive effects are eaten together, agni will be slowed down. The foods can then remain in the stomach for seven to eight hours. 
These same foods, if eaten separately might well stimulate agni, be digested more quickly and even help to burn ama. Thus, according to Ayurveda, one should eat according to one's constitution and take fruits, starches, proteins and fats separately at different times of the day. 
Combining foods improperly can produce indigestion, fermentation, putrefaction and gas formation. This condition, if prolonged, can lead to toxemia and disease complex. 






In the Bhagavad gita Sri Krishna declares that food is of three types as are sacrifices, austerity and charity. 

Food you eat is either satvic, rajasic or tamasic according to its character and effect upon the body and the mind. One can find out the nature or temperament of a man from the nature of the food he prefers. 

Sattvic food (Pure)
Sattvic food is always freshly cooked and simple, juicy, It is light, unctuous, nourishing, sweet and tasty. It increases the energy of the mind and produces cheerfulness, serenity and mental clarity. sattvic food is highly conducive to good health.
Milk, butter, ghee (clarified butter), fresh ripe fruits, almonds, dates, moong (green gram) sprouts, barley, wheat, cereals, tomatoes, parwar, torai, karela (names of Indian vegetables), plantains etc., are sattvic.The spices commonly used in sattvic cooking are turmeric, ginger, cinnamon, coriander, fennel (saunf) and cardamom. 

The sattvic personality 
People who follow the sattvic way of eating are known to be clear-minded, balanced, and spiritually aware. They usually avoid alcohol, stimulants like tea, coffee, tobacco and non-vegetarian food. 

Rajasic food (Hot)
This is food that is fresh but heavy. It includes non-vegetarian food like meat, fish, eggs, and chicken, all whole pulses and dals (not sprouted), hot spices like chillies, pepper, and all vegetables including onion and garlic. The rajasic diet is also cooked fresh and is nutritious. It may contain a little more oil and spices compared to sattvic food. It benefits those who believe in action and aggression in a positive way such as business persons, politicians, and athletes.
Rajasic foods are bitter, sour, salty, pungent, hot and dry. Puri, kachori, pungent condiments, sweets, fried bread, curd, brinjal (egg plant), carrots, urad (black gram), onions, garlic, lemon, masur (red gram), tea, coffee, betel leaves, tobacco are rajasic articles of foods.

The Rajasic personality 
These foods create sensuality, sexuality, greed, jealousy, anger, delusion, fantasies, egotism and irreligious feelings.They are interested in the four P's - power, prestige, position and prosperity. But they are quite in control of their lives and aren’t obsessed by any of the above. They are go-getters and know how to enjoy life.The rajasic man always plans to prepare various kinds of preparations to satisfy his palate. The palate remains unsatisfied until the stomach is completely filled with pungent things and till the tongue is burnt with chillies.


Tamasic food (Intoxicating)
This includes foods that are not fresh, overcooked, stale and processed — foods made from refined flour (maida), pastries, pizzas, burgers, chocolates, soft drinks, rumali roti, naan, tea, coffee, tobacco, alcohol, canned and preserved foods like jams, pickles and fermented foods, fried foods, sweets made from sugar, ice creams, puddings and most ‘fun foods’ are included in this list. All spicy, salty, sweet and fatty foods form part of the tamasic diet. Beef, fish, eggs, wine, garlic, onions and tobacco are tamasic foodstuffs.

The Tamasic personality 
Tamas brings about stagnation leading to degeneration of people’s health. Such individuals suffer from intense mood swings, insecurity, desires, and cravings and are unable to deal with others in a balanced way. They have little regard for the welfare of others and tend to be very self-centered. Their nervous system and heart do not function optimally and such individuals age fast. They usually suffer from conditions like cancer, heart disease, diabetes, arthritis, and chronic fatigue. 

Sattvic, Rajasic and Tamasic are more than just qualities in food — they are a way of life.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I have told his bloat story before but I couldn't find it all together in one place. So here goes....


I can only imagine your shock to discover Henry 
could of died while you were away.
And with no warning. That is the most distressing.
I'm relief his life was saved and he is still with you today. Discussing nutrition I can tell you want the very best for your babies.

I read this and then saw the other other thread where you and others were not only discussing bloat, but torsion, and the surgery you can have to staple the stomach to avoid it (or at least avoid sudden death). ????


All this is so new to me. 
(I'm quicker with nutrition bc of my job). 

I'm still taking it all in and think about Henry. 


I will research more about this as Persia will have her spay surgery in a few weeks.

I read you didn't do the surgery on Millie. I don't remember you giving a specific reason, but was there something that triggered it while discussing it with the vet? 

Was it you (I was very new at the time) that posted that Millie (I remember the name) developed slight incontinence after spay surgery before heat cycle?

If it was, did it improve? 
Hope you don't mind the questions, but they do serve to educate.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia said:


> I can only imagine your shock to discover Henry
> could of died while you were away.
> And with no warning. That is the most distressing.
> I'm relief his life was saved and he is still with you today. Discussing nutrition I can tell you want the very best for your babies.
> ...


My vet was not all that knowledgeable about prophylactic gastropexy (tacking the stomach to prevent torsion) so she talked me out of it. If I could do it again, I would have waited until 1yr to spay Millie and I would have had the pexy done then.

Torsion, not bloat, is the real killer and cannot be prevented other than with gastropexy. You can follow all environmental precautions and still have a dog suffer torsion. Diet is not necessarily linked to bloat/torsion. Rarely a gastropexy will fail but it seems to be the most effective way to prevent torsion.

Search "bloat" as I made a sticky about it on this forum. How big will Persia be? Is she deep or narrow chested? Do you know of any history of bloat in her pedigree? How often are you home to recognize if she was having bloat or GDV? They can die within hours with GDV. All things to consider. I may still have the laparascopic pexy performed with Millie, but it is about $1,000 (much more expensive than just doing it with the spay) so I have to save up some $$$$.

Millie did have a few occasions of incontinence that may or may not have been due to an early spay. She would pee in her sleep in my bed  Poor baby. I did treat her with a short course of estrogen and she, cross my fingers, hasn't had an incident since.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

Please excuse my ignorance, I'm very interested in feeding raw but... this sounds so silly... I always heard not to ever give dogs chicken bones because they'll choke or be impaled from the inside by bone slivers? 

Is this urban legend?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

FunkyPuppy - I, too, have grown up knowing that chicken bones can be fata to dogs. It is absolutely true that cooked chicken bones - especially roasted, fried or grilled - are brittle, and can shatter into dangerously sharp shards. Never, ever let your dog eat cooked chicken bones, unless they have been simmered or pressure cooked into mashable softness. 

Raw bones are quite different.

When I suggested to my vet that I feed raw chicken wings to my dogs, he was very, very dubious. But I spent weeks trawling the internet for cases of dogs harmed by raw bone, and the only cases I found involved large, weight bearing bones that shattered into sharp shards when chewed by powerful dogs - raw chicken wings and other similar bones were not recorded once, despite forming a major part of raw diets all over the world. Given the commercial interest in undermining raw feeding, I reckon if there were cases of dogs being harmed by raw chicken bones, they would be widely publicised (a single case of a dog that MIGHT have died as a result of chewing a child's toy went viral in no time), so I decided to feed mine chicken wings, carefully supervised. They are toys, so half a wing makes a balanced meal, and they love them. For a standard, I would be looking at a wing quarter, or a whole chicken carcass - nothing small enough to be swallowed in chunks.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have standards and I safely feed chicken quarters and turkey necks. Turkey necks are controversial though as they are the right diameter to pose as a choking hazard for gulpers. They are fine for my dogs, though.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

Yes, what *fjm* said.

Raw chicken bones are perfectly safe. Only the cooked bones have the risk of harming your dog.
Also, any weight bearing bones of other animals, so the only leg bones I feel safe to feed my dogs are chicken bones.

And about choking, always supervise your dog!! Especially when they have started a raw diet. 
But don't feel too scared if you see them gulping down a whole drumstick for example, they will pass it without a problem. My German Shepherds and my mini Poodle tend to just chew a bit and then gulp them down.
You can look for raw feeding videos in youtube and you can see how dogs usually eat, it'll help you a lot. 





 | 



 (Disclaimer: not my dogs or videos).

I think the risk of choking would be greater if you feed them smaller pieces, as in cutting a chicken neck in 2-3 pieces instead of feeding it whole. Bigger pieces are safer imho.


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