# Doodle article



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I ran into a man that has had 5 spoo show dogs and now has a golden doodle. He said you could not pay him to ever go back. I asked him why and he said with his poodles he could never find a balance dog, they were either always wanting attention and could never get enough, or they would not even come when called. He said the doodle was much easier to live with, not as sensitive ect.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

mom2Zoe said:


> poodles, but is then telling you to buy a doodle. Why not just buy a poodle?
> They did say that mixes have less health problems. I was always under the impression that a purebred was healthier?



I don't believe that doodles are healthier than poodles. They are not using top tier breeding dogs to breed doodles. I figure they must get their breeding stock from pet stores/puppy mills. Who are those that say that mixes are healthier. Really!

pr


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

When choosing our 1st dog we wanted non-shedding and there'd been so much talk of oodle crosses that's that what I was looking at. Then I realised there were many purebred options.

From what I've read its very hit and miss what sort of a coat you get and the 2 parents should still have the relevant health check specific to their breeds, but of course byb have jumped on the band wagon to cash in, not doing health checks so people think they're buying these healthy crosses can end up with a dog with health issues.

We got a mini schnauzer in the end what makes me laugh is seeing schnoodles for sale stating the poodle part makes them non-shedding when a schnauzer is non shedding in the first place. If only people would research what they're buying.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm with you on that poodlerunner. I doubt you would ever find a doodle or any other hybrid (designer dog, mutt, what ever you want to call it) that was purpose bred that would have come from excellent genetic and health tested stock. When you go with a poodle, GSD, or any other breed while you may know there can be certain health problems in that breed, careful choice of a good breeder is likely to reduce the odds of those health problems occurring in your pup.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Doodles are definitely not overlooked as a breed. Lol. I just feel like the guy that switched to doodles mentioned above is getting the same randomly assorted box of chocolates as anyone else. There isn't a standard doodle temperament..he just likes the temperament of the particular dog he has. 

I love and pet all over doodles at the dog park. I just think their marketing relies on ignorance.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Since I live in the pit bull/pit bull cross Capitol, my view on doodles has softened. At least doodles don't pose a safety threat and would be snapped up from one of our shelters in a NY minute. My new nemesis is puppy millers, whom I see as a greater threat to the breed and the source of the dab of Poodle magic to all other breeds. It does make me furious on behalf of dedicated Poodle breeders that a mutt could command more than their carefully bred puppies.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Well where I live there are actually quite a few reputable "Doodle" breeders, they health test both sides extensively. Sure they ask a ridiculous amount for their pups but if people want to pay that then that's their problem....the important thing is that those puppies end up in good homes, and I think they do. One of the breeders has facebook, her dogs are beautiful with lovely personalities and i have noticed that a lot of people go back and purchase second puppies from her, they love theirs so much. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with that as far as I'm concerned.

I totally agree with Mfmst.....it's the Pitbull and PB cross breeding that REALLY saddens me..... Our shelters are FULL of them, they're probably the most euthanized breed and STILL people are breeding them! And they're asking small amounts for their pups (certainly compared to Doodles), which ensures they're getting in to the wrong hands....... And then they're eventually mistreated, or abused or dumped in to the shelters. That's MY rant.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

What's the point of health testing doodle parents? Let's say the standard has perfect knees and hips and so does the lab. You put them together and create a dog that doesn't have the bone structure of either parents...how would you standardize that? I mean it's awesome that they aren't breeding dogs with bad hips, but when you're creating a dog with a completely different bone structure it seems moot. 

I know labs are bouncy, but no one is quite as bouncy as a poodle. Eventing I go to the dog park I am asked if I taught her how to prance and people comment on how poised she is, like the ground is a trampoline and she's floating on air

Poodles are built to be light on their feet. For their height, they are not nearly as heavy as other dogs. I can't even imagine having a labs body and weight with the agility and exuberance of a standard poodle.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Not talking about standardization......just saying, they're not all "puppy mill" or 
"pet store" breeding stock.

Must add....when I'm defending Doodles, it's the Golden Retriever/Poodle mix I mean, i'm not a fan of the Lab/Poodle mix. JMO


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> Since I live in the pit bull/pit bull cross Capitol, my view on doodles has softened. At least doodles don't pose a safety threat and would be snapped up from one of our shelters in a NY minute. My new nemesis is puppy millers, whom I see as a greater threat to the breed and the source of the dab of Poodle magic to all other breeds. It does make me furious on behalf of dedicated Poodle breeders that a mutt could command more than their carefully bred puppies.


Me too about the pit bulls. That's the mutt at my dog park. The doodles don't want to go in with the pits either. So the doodles in my area are not seen. People have yards and they don't bring them to play with the pitties in the dog park. I would take my chances with doodles in the dog park. So to me they are the (way) lesser of those two evils. Poodles are hurt badly by the doodle market and it's pitiful to think of our poodles being used this way.  Anytime a breed gets popular like doodles, it's terrible for the breed and in the designer breeds, our poor poodles are at the heart of it and it's every poodle variety and they will cross a poodle with just about anything. iMO, that's the real threat of the doodle craze and anyone who is telling me how great their doodle is, it is at the expense of the poodle breed so... there's that.

off my doodle box now 

pr


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Naira said:


> What's the point of health testing doodle parents? Let's say the standard has perfect knees and hips and so does the lab. You put them together and create a dog that doesn't have the bone structure of either parents...how would you standardize that? I mean it's awesome that they aren't breeding dogs with bad hips, but when you're creating a dog with a completely different bone structure it seems moot.


Testing to make sure they're not breeding dogs with bad hips.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

peccan said:


> Testing to make sure they're not breeding dogs with bad hips.



Oh I know. And I said that was great........

But when you create a dog that has a completely different bone structure than the parents, their hips can still be bad. For example, the bone structure of a poodle is not meant to support lab weight. Poodles are built to be very light and agile on their feet. 

It's great that the parents have good hips, but people aren't buying the parents..they are buying the offspring. I suppose it's better than parents with bad hips, but when you're creating a entirely different bone structure in the new dog it's not as helpful as you might think.


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

Naira said:


> Oh I know. And I said that was great........
> 
> But when you create a dog that has a completely different bone structure than the parents, their hips can still be bad. For example, the bone structure of a poodle is not meant to support lab weight. Poodles are built to be very light and agile on their feet.
> 
> It's great that the parents have good hips, but people aren't buying the parents..they are buying the offspring. I suppose it's better than parents with bad hips, but when you're creating a entirely different bone structure in the new dog it's not as helpful as you might think.


The problem with the cross is you don't always get the good bits of both breeds so if the lab parent has bad hips the offspring can end up with bad hips. If it was a purebred mating you wouldn't take the chance of mating one parent with good hips and one with bad hips. Just using hips as an example


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Even breeders do not necessarily have an issue with Doodles. We have a problem with mutts being marketed to such a degree that they are being sold for profit. You want a Doodle? Rescue one. Shelters are full of them! The Doodle breeders lie telling people they are non shedding and in a lot of cases a non shedding breed is sought due to allergies or asthma in the home. People take their puppy home, end up with their kid at emerg with horrendous reactions because their cute little puppy is more Lab or Golden than Poodle and puppy ends up in a shelter because the greeder will not take the puppy back. Even the man who came up with the idea of Doodles is sorry the thought ever crossed his mind. THAT tells a huge story in itself.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Naira I agree with you that just because you are crossing two dogs with good hips you won't necessarily get puppies that are musculo-skeletally sound. There are so many conformation differences in the build of poodles to virtually everything else they end up getting crossed to that it is easier to imagine problems than good results.

Arreau, yes, there are plenty of doodles in shelters and rescue for all the reasons you mentioned. No need to keep making them...


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Believe me, I would have LOVED to gotten a Doodle from a rescue but where I am from that is unheard of. Pretty much the only dogs around here that are in the shelters are Pitbull/Rottie/Husky type mixes...... And the rescues that have small dogs have brought them up from the States and they are almost exclusively Chihuahuas.


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> Arreau, yes, there are plenty of doodles in shelters and rescue for all the reasons you mentioned. No need to keep making them...


My parents tried for months to find a standard poodle mix in a shelter. The closest one we could find was over 2000 miles away and was only available for about two days. The majority of dogs in shelters that I've seen are lab/pit/rott/husky mixes and lots of little mixes.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I went on Petfinder just to see and I was surprised to see 74 pages of poodle mixes. Very sad ads too. 

pr


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Poodlerunner said:


> I went on Petfinder just to see and I was surprised to see 74 pages of poodle mixes. Very sad ads too.
> 
> pr


Yes, I've searched and have seen lots too - dogs I would have LOVED to adopt.
None of them were in my neck of the woods though, not even close......


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Critterluvr said:


> Not talking about standardization......just saying, they're not all "puppy mill" or
> "pet store" breeding stock.
> 
> Must add....when I'm defending Doodles, it's the Golden Retriever/Poodle mix I mean, i'm not a fan of the Lab/Poodle mix. JMO


A doodle is a doodle is a doodle!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

A poodle is a poodle is a poodle. No differences between puppy mill poodles and byb poodles and well bred poodles?

Sorry, CM, but your statement doesn't make sense to me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)




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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

MiniPoo said:


> A poodle is a poodle is a poodle. No differences between puppy mill poodles and byb poodles and well bred poodles?
> 
> Sorry, CM, but your statement doesn't make sense to me.


What's unclear? A labradoodle and a goldendoodle are both DOODLES! Comment in response to goldendoodle vs. labradoodle.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

A lot of people on this forum say they don't hate doodles, they hate doodle breeders. I think this is not true at all. They hate doodles period. Even if the parent dogs were well bred (just a scenario), and the pups were advertised in an honest way for a fair price, just because a doodle is a doodle is a doodle, they should not exist.

I am not a fan of the doodle look although some people obviously are. But if a breeder were to get good healthy dogs and breed them honestly, this is America and I have no problem with that. I do not feel.this takes away from purebred poodles which will continue to exist.

I am not promoting doodle breeding. It is like the saying, "I do not agree with a thing you said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." I do not want a doodle, but if a doodle breeder were good, I feel they and their dogs have every right to exist.

JMO. The doodle bashing just got to me. Sorry if I am being offensive.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> A lot of people on this forum say they don't hate doodles, they hate doodle breeders. I think this is not true at all. They hate doodles period. Even if the parent dogs were well bred (just a scenario), and the pups were advertised in an honest way for a fair price, just because a doodle is a doodle is a doodle, they should not exist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who could hate an innocent dog? I think that what we hate are the greeders, and the fact that many of the pups that they spawn are unhealthy, with horrible coats and difficult temperaments, who will be shuttled from home to home to rescues possibly many times in their lives.
I don't like English Bulldog Breeders either - as unhealthy as those dogs are, I think that is cruel and selfish to bring them into the world to live miserable short lives...


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Amen MiniPoo.... My thoughts EXACTLY.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Although most doodle breeders are probably greeders, I do believe that not all of them are.

There are poodle breeders who are greeders. That is why we puppy owners have to do our research before buying. 

I agree there are some purebred dogs unable to mate on their own or whelp puppies naturally and they have short lives. I wonder why we bred these dogs to be so unnatural. Should we blame this on greeders as well?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

minipoo, i think perhaps folks like arreau and charismatic millie feel as strongly as they do because they are actually breeders. they know what it takes and what they have gone through to accomplish what they hope is a good breeding. there are a lot of details that have to be mastered and many factors that have to be balanced. it's hard enough with one breed. i think they're understandably skeptical that it can be done when crossing two. especially, as has been pointed out, when the dogs being crossbred are unlikely to come from tried and tested healthy, temperament-proven lines to begin with.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't hate any dog. I get in trouble all the time because I think all breeds are over bred... I don't think there is any dog shortage anywhere. 

It does seem that more byb have hit payday with the Doodle craze. I see them all the time when I do to the park etc, but I have to say, working at the Shelter, I have not seen a since one. I see poor Pits with hardly any chance of ever finding a home and other odd mutts, the most.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

are there any doodle breeders that prove their dogs in any dog events? What are the doodle breeders doing with the that $$$ that the pups rake in? Really, this is not just a doodle breeder question either. It's a lot of breeders, the kind we wish would stop. On POODLE FORUM, I don't think we should have to end a thread high-fiving doodles.

pr


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I like my breeder's philosophy - "Fewer doodles, better Poodles".


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Nobody is asking you guys to high five Doodles, this is a Poodle forum and you all dearly love your breed and that's nice. 
The point is, quit bashing the Doodles....as a "dog", especially when it sounds like most of you don't even have first hand experience of them. 
And the way I see it is that there is always going to be Doodles, no matter how much you hate the Idea. So why not just focus your energy in loving the Poodle breed and loving your own dogs......and let people who love and own Doodles do that too if they want. It's actually their right too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I have plenty of experience with doodles. One labradoodle I know well (belongs to good friends) is a neurotic mess, well loved and cared for, but nonetheless not a dog I would want. I have also seen a number of golden doodles and labradoodles in obedience and agility classes. The golden doodles have all been untrustworthy mean spirited dogs. One was so bad I left the class because of it. The owner had very little control and the dog was dog aggressive. I only know one labradoodle having some success in obedience and rally, but it has taken the handler a lot of work to get through the novice levels. 

I wouldn't offer my thoughts without some evidence to back them up.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Ok, so you have never met a poodle mix you liked so all poodle mixes are bad. Ok. At least we are being honest that it is not just the breeders we do not like.

Of course there are people like Critterluvr who have met a lot of good and happy poodle mixes.

I think I prefer the term poodle mix to doodle.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

In one poodle group I'm in, doodle discussions are actually banned lol. It's just such a controversial topic. 

I frequent like 4 different dog parks and I have exchanged numbers with some of the poodle mixers because they usually play well with Naira. We try to go at the same time so our dogs can play together. When she was fuzzy lots of people thought she was a doodle and they were like "oh! That's where my doodle gets that from" when they found out she was a standard (the silly and funny things poodles do) 

Even though it seems like minis are the least common on this forum, trust when I say most people think of poodles as small dogs and they lump toys and minis into the same category. Seeing a standard is pretty rare around these parts, and when she's rocking her poodle cut she gets so much attention. Doodles are far more common than standard poodles IMO. 

I think people that have standard poodles vs. minis and toys are more affected by the labradoodle, goldendoodle trend. I personally didn't care much when I had a toy and a mini but after being asked every day if your dog is a golden doodle (even in a poodle cut) it does get annoying...and poodle forum is an ideal place to voice your frustrations about that. 

I hate greedy breeders period. I'm part of a large standard poodle Facebook group and I call people out for being backyard breeders frequently. 

Every time I run into someone that wants a doodle I usually ask them why, out of curiosity. More often than not, the reasons they state are the fabrications that doodle breeders push. *"Lab personality with a poodle coat and a teddy bear head! No shedding, hypoallergenic and less grooming requirements because it's only half poodle!!" *

It makes me cringe. But either way the dog is here, they love their dog, and it's their choice. Doesn't make the fallacies any less annoying. I'm sure no one on this forum goes around bad mouthing doodles during their every day lives or even caring much. But when a nauseating article like this on a poodle forum arises this is a safe haven to state your opinion.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I certainly don't hate Labradoodles. I don't think they should be bred unless someone is earnestly trying to fix the phenotype....create a real breed that comes out pretty uniformly. And I have heard of one in Australia that is working diligently and responsibly to do just that. I see nothing wrong with responsibly and correctly trying to create a new breed, although we probably don't really need another one. 

It's the greeders I disagree with...these people jumping on the fad bandwagon and sucking what they can out of it at the expense of innocent animals. I dislike any greeder whether it's a purebred or mix that we're talking about. 

There are so many mixed breeds needing homes that it makes my heart sad that more and more are being churned out like loaves of bread on a conveyor belt. 

Having said that, I have met and known of some that are perfectly lovely. Whether or not they're all non-shedding or hypoallergenic, I do not know. But not all back yard bred dogs have lousy temperaments. My own two Chihuahuas were byb and they both had/have fantastic temperaments and in fact, pretty darn good longevity and health. Jose` certainly isn't structurally correct. 

Anyhow, as I said once in another thread, I met a few and know a trainer who has one and they're just great. Maybe people like some of the great aspects of a Lab and also those of a Poodle and are hoping for a little of both, which they sometimes get. Maybe a bit stockier or a bit less bouncy, maybe more laid back from the Lab and perhaps the curly coat or the more refined look mixed with the stocky look? I don't know. I think any fad in any breed or mix is a bad thing. Too many greeders come out of the wood work and tend to ruin a breed, sell to the wrong people and increase genetic faults.

As far as the history of perpetuating brachiocephalic dogs and achondroplastic dogs, I do not like that at all....taking a genetic mutation and capitalizing on it at the expense of the animal is one thing that is hard for me to take.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> Although most doodle breeders are probably greeders, I do believe that not all of them are.
> 
> There are poodle breeders who are greeders. That is why we puppy owners have to do our research before buying.
> 
> I agree there are some purebred dogs unable to mate on their own or whelp puppies naturally and they have short lives. I wonder why we bred these dogs to be so unnatural. Should we blame this on greeders as well?



I sort of do - greed or some kind of supreme selfishness which makes them feel that they think those smooshy faces, and raspy noises that they make as they try to bark with no air are so adorable that they don't care that they have short, miserable (expensive) lives.
One of the things that I really appreciate about poodles is that at their core, what the standard describes, and what is popular in the ring, is a really sound, healthy, functional dog. There are many purebreds that you cannot say that about, and I would no more support them than I would a Doodle breeder.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Poodle Superiority Complex*

Grace and I both have Poodle Superiority Complex, PSC. Grace has a number of doggy friends, Sheep dogs, GSDs, JRTs, Doodles and Poodles. But we both prefer the poodles. She grew up walking on her beach every day with a collie. They played when she was a puppy but not any more, PSC!
She loves to run, chase, jump and fight with other poodles and with one Groodle called Hamish. He has an adorable nature but has a lot of health problems. With the "other dogs" she will sniff and greet but not play. Poodle play is just "too much" for many "other dogs" so she has learned that only poodles are fun to play with. As for myself: I trained GSDs for many years and I had hunting sight hounds that I hunted with, running and riding with them (young then). I loved them all. I grew up sleeping in the "dog pile" My parents gave up on putting me back in my bed. I learned to bark and whine before I learned to talk. Since then I have always loved dogs and they all trust me. But in my dotage I "look down" on "other dogs" and I think a lot of people here on PF feel the same. PSC is as common here as MPS. Grace and I might have BPSC "Black Poodle Superiority Complex because we prefer Black "in dogs" too.
Eric and Grace:angel2:


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

ericwd9 said:


> Grace and I both have Poodle Superiority Complex, PSC. Grace has a number of doggy friends, Sheep dogs, GSDs, JRTs, Doodles and Poodles. But we both prefer the poodles. She grew up walking on her beach every day with a collie. They played when she was a puppy but not any more, PSC!
> She loves to run, chase, jump and fight with other poodles and with one Groodle called Hamish. He has an adorable nature but has a lot of health problems. With the "other dogs" she will sniff and greet but not play. Poodle play is just "too much" for many "other dogs" so she has learned that only poodles are fun to play with. As for myself: I trained GSDs for many years and I had hunting sight hounds that I hunted with, running and riding with them (young then). I loved them all. I grew up sleeping in the "dog pile" My parents gave up on putting me back in my bed. I learned to bark and whine before I learned to talk. Since then I have always loved dogs and they all trust me. But in my dotage I "look down" on "other dogs" and I think a lot of people here on PF feel the same. PSC is as common here as MPS. Grace and I might have BPSC "Black Poodle Superiority Complex because we prefer Black "in dogs" too.
> Eric and Grace:angel2:


I didn't know there was a name for it, thanks, Eric and Gracie!

pr


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> I have plenty of experience with doodles. One labradoodle I know well (belongs to good friends) is a neurotic mess, well loved and cared for, but nonetheless not a dog I would want. I have also seen a number of golden doodles and labradoodles in obedience and agility classes. The golden doodles have all been untrustworthy mean spirited dogs. One was so bad I left the class because of it. The owner had very little control and the dog was dog aggressive. I only know one labradoodle having some success in obedience and rally, but it has taken the handler a lot of work to get through the novice levels.
> 
> I wouldn't offer my thoughts without some evidence to back them up.


Okay Lily, so this is MY side of the Doodle story.....
As you know I own a Golden Doodle, she is one of the easiest dogs I have ever owned, temperament wise. I could go on and on about her positive tributes but I won't..... I too have met many other GD's and each and every one of them has had lovely temperaments and their owners all love their dogs and are very happy with them. They too have come from what I consider to be responsible breeders. Can't say that I have met one in the way you describe them but I'm sure they are out there.
So please stop generalizing that ALL Doodles are hyper dogs with bad temperaments, and ALL Doodle breeders are puppy mills or use pet store stock ....etc etc etc. 
I have seen some pretty hyper Spoos (one down the road from me) and some pretty yappy Mpoos and seen evidence of some pretty horrific Poodle puppy mills. Does that mean i think that's the way it is with the Poodle breed right across the board? No, that would be unfair and I'm much more open minded than that. AND I know that would really upset some people, and what would be the point of that?:confused3:

There's my rant.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Critterluvr said:


> Okay Lily, so this is MY side of the Doodle story.....
> As you know I own a Golden Doodle, she is one of the easiest dogs I have ever owned, temperament wise. I could go on and on about her positive tributes but I won't..... I too have met many other GD's and each and every one of them has had lovely temperaments and their owners all love their dogs and are very happy with them. They too have come from what I consider to be responsible breeders. Can't say that I have met one in the way you describe them but I'm sure they are out there.
> So please stop generalizing that ALL Doodles are hyper dogs with bad temperaments, and ALL Doodle breeders are puppy mills or use pet store stock ....etc etc etc.
> I have seen some pretty hyper Spoos (one down the road from me) and some pretty yappy Mpoos and seen evidence of some pretty horrific Poodle puppy mills. Does that mean i think that's the way it is with the Poodle breed right across the board? No, that would be unfair and I'm much more open minded than that. AND I know that would really upset some people, and what would be the point of that?:confused3:
> ...


Why are you ranting about doodles on Poodle forum. Now you are putting down poodles...on Poodle Forum... not cool! But! my poodle could care less. LOL. I'm going to walk her cute 1-year-old self now.

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What I took from Critterluvr's post was not that she was criticizing Poodles or putting doodles on a pedestal, but rather pointing out that generalizations are illogical. Or "ranting" about people who are illogical and put down doodles indiscriminately. Some Poodles are hyper, aggressive, annoying and some are perfectly lovely. Same with doodles. Some turn out rotten and others are very nice dogs. And I'll add that the same can be said about any breed or mix of breeds. It's ridiculous and illogical to put down _any_ kind of dog when there are variations. I think most of us agree that crappy breeders are louses. LOL!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> What I took from Critterluvr's post was not that she was criticizing Poodles or putting doodles on a pedestal, but rather pointing out that generalizations are illogical. Or "ranting" about people who are illogical and put down doodles indiscriminately. Some Poodles are hyper, aggressive, annoying and some are perfectly lovely. Same with doodles. Some turn out rotten and others are very nice dogs. And I'll add that the same can be said about any breed or mix of breeds. It's ridiculous and illogical to put down _any_ kind of dog when there are variations. I think most of us agree that crappy breeders are louses. LOL!


Thankyou Poodlebeguiled....that is EXACTLY what I was trying to say. :thumb:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there's a doodle forum for those who want to promote doodles. as i recall, it's against the pf rules to do that here. doodle threads tend to go off the rails and devolve into personal attacks. i seem to remember that there are a few older ones folks can check out. i suspect that's why the pf rule.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If it's against the rules to say something nice about doodles, then it is probably against the rules to say something bad about them or at least it should be. Who knows where the rules are. I can't find them. Is it against the rules to say something nice or not nice about any other breed or type of dog? WTF? We talk about doodles all the time. So, if you're going to be mean about them, then by golly suck it up and let people say something nice on occasion too for goodness sakes. Rules schmools. :alberteinstein:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It is the very concept of Doodles that I am ethically opposed to and so are many poodle lovers, fanciers, and breeders alike. So, while some people may have had a positive experience with a doodle, I fundamentally am opposed to the purposeful mixed breeding of a poodle and any other breed. I could never hate an innocent animal, but my view on the matter is clear. In my opinion, it is the very act of "doodling" that is irresponsible!


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> If it's against the rules to say something nice about doodles, then it is probably against the rules to say something bad about them or at least it should be. Who knows where the rules are. I can't find them. Is it against the rules to say something nice or not nice about any other breed or type of dog? WTF? We talk about doodles all the time. So, if you're going to be mean about them, then by golly suck it up and let people say something nice on occasion too for goodness sakes. Rules schmools. :alberteinstein:


Yes!!! And....if you are referring to Rule 14, I think you are totally misreading it.
Probably intentionally.... patk?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Two Poodle crosses with 100 posts is promoting Doodles and deliberately chastising a Senior Member with almost 10,000 posts. 

Is this a Poodle forum still?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It is the very concept of Doodles that I am ethically opposed to and so are many poodle lovers, fanciers, and breeders alike. So, while some people may have had a positive experience with a doodle, I fundamentally am opposed to the purposeful mixed breeding of a poodle and any other breed. I could never hate an innocent animal, but my view on the matter is clear. In my opinion, it is the very act of "doodling" that is irresponsible!


Well said. I am also against breeding Poodles with other breeds, but additionally, any breed with another breed to create still more mixed breeds. There are millions upon millions of homeless dogs. Most of these breeders are irresponsible and aren't breeding from the best purebred examples. The only exception for me is IF there is a good reason for a new breed and someone is breeding responsibly and correctly and fixing a type so that it can be accepted as a breed from a reputable breed club. Just throwing together a couple of different breeds to profit from the latest craze is very irresponsible and sad.

I've had several different purebred dogs over the years along with a few mixes. I would have been just as horrified to see a designer craze where they mixed GSD and some other breed, say, a Beagle and called it a Gerble. Or a Doberman (another one of my dogs) and a Portuguese water dog and called it a Doberguese. And watched them multiply by the thousands upon thousands and seeing them come up with lots of health or temperament problems. 

I am against fads unless there is a real purpose and responsibility behind it. And that is rare with these Doodles. It doesn't make me dislike the dogs though and they're not_ all _damaged goods.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm not promoting them, I'm defending them.
Please go and read Rule 14...... Pretty sure I have not made any violations pertaining to this rule on this forum.
I feel I have a right to love my own dog, even if she is just a Poodle cross, and defend her as I see fit. 
Who care how many posts I have made, or how many posts somebody else has made. Really?


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

If we want to avoid controversy, let's not mention doodles at all. Don't say anything bad about them or good about them since this is a poodle forum -- unless there is a personal story to tell that involves doodles. Let us just talk about poodles and quit bashing other types of dogs with one indiscriminate brush.

I won't continue this thread anymore. If someone doesn't get my point by now, further explanation won't help.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Critterluvr said:


> Who care how many posts I have made, or how many posts somebody else has made. Really?


A simple matter of respect. You're the new kid here. Argue if you like... but deliberately baiting any other member is kind of not on.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I am not baiting anybody, I am not promoting anything..... I think it's been very clear in the point that I have tried to get across, and amicably I think.
There are those who know exactly what I am trying to say, there are also a select few who choose to read into my posts things that are truly not there.
It gets a bit weary after a while.....so I too am finished with this thread, and I agree with MiniPoo that further explanation is pointless.
I'm off to my garden. eace2:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Two Poodle crosses with 100 posts is promoting Doodles and deliberately chastising a Senior Member with almost 10,000 posts.
> 
> Is this a Poodle forum still?


I respectfully disagree with this concept or statement.


Just because someone is a senior member doesn't give them the green light to chew someone's ass just because they have a Poodle mix that they love and like to talk about. I talk about my Chihuahua mix. Other people talk about their other breeds. I don't see that the poster is_ "promoting_" doodles simply by talking about them. She's not trying to get someone to buy one or raving about a doodle breeder she knows. I see _nothing_ like that. She has just talked about how she likes her dog. 

What's the difference between a member with a Poodle cross and a member with no Poodle at all? Why does it matter how many posts someone has anyhow?

Why is it okay for some people to chastise but not others? Is there a post number to reach before it's acceptable to chastise? And a limit where one qualifies as an acceptable chastisee where they can be picked on like a hen pecking at grain? What are the post numbers that dictate this rule I know nothing about?

If doodles are _not_ to be discussed, then must we not mention any other breed of dog or mix? Should there only be members with only purebred Poodles? Who is allowed to chastise and moderate besides the moderator? Do we need more regulations? This is starting to resemble, not a Poodle forum or at least what I thought a Poodle forum would be, but rather some kind of weird cult. I dislike snobbery intensely.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> Yes!!! And....if you are referring to Rule 14, I think you are totally misreading it.
> Probably intentionally.... patk?


this is exactly what i mean about doodle threads devolving into personal attacks.


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## gingerem (Jun 21, 2015)

I have a dog that is most likely a doodle. I got him as a roughly 2-year-old rescue who had bounced between a few homes so we're not positive but it's highly likely. He came with some issues. We'll never really know which of those are due to poor early treatment and socialization and which are genetic issues. To be fair to him, intensive retraining and socialization have fixed most of the issues he arrived with and I eventually learned to groom him well enough to prevent mats.

Without interacting with him and other doodles in our classes, I probably would not have become interested in poodles at all. My sister has a very charming toy poodle but that wasn't enough to convince me to get one. Casper has a lot of the perks of a poodle, like lack of shedding, ease of training, and that adorable prancing gait.

I'm looking for a purebred poodle for our next dog *because* of those doodle perks that probably come from the poodle half. If I were planning to go with another fully adult rescue, I might consider a doodle again *but* we want a puppy or very young dog (Maybe one that was originally breeder's pick but ended up with minor physical faults that kept them from being a conformation or breeding dog.) and I want to know what I'm getting. With a doodle, that's not possible. I find the idea of intentionally breeding a *mutt* and then charging thousands of dollars for the result faintly outrageous. There's simply no way to be sure whether the pups will be more poodle like or more the other breed. They could just as easily get all of the bad traits of both as they could get all of good traits.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> What I took from Critterluvr's post was not that she was criticizing Poodles or putting doodles on a pedestal, but rather pointing out that generalizations are illogical. Or "ranting" about people who are illogical and put down doodles indiscriminately. Some Poodles are hyper, aggressive, annoying and some are perfectly lovely. Same with doodles. Some turn out rotten and others are very nice dogs. And I'll add that the same can be said about any breed or mix of breeds. It's ridiculous and illogical to put down _any_ kind of dog when there are variations. I think most of us agree that crappy breeders are louses. LOL!



well said!!!
I didn't mean to start drama when starting this thread.... I am sorry.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

In my opinion, there are actually a lot of generalized "issues" with the doodles themselves (with some exceptions of course) and this is one reason why I try to educate people who are considering one so that they may instead consider one of many purebred dogs that could better and more reliably meet their needs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

mom2Zoe said:


> well said!!!
> I didn't mean to start drama when starting this thread.... I am sorry.


No apologies needed. I think it is an important discussion (after all, we have it over and over, don't we). The more times threads like this show up in search engines the better the odds that people will think about the goals of the breeders and how to find a good puppy.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

i started this thread by saying that i was disappointed my friend was getting a doodle.......... 
Two of my children left for sleep away camp for a month. They wanted to bring Zoe to the bus stop. I decided not to bring her because i wanted to give the kids attention. Another reason is while Zoe is great with people especially kids she doesn't like a million people running up to her and petting her. She is happy to let grownups pet her after a few minutes after she acclimates to them, but on her own terms.

i am telling you this about Zoe because it is in total contrast to the doodle who was shipped to my friend last week.
i do not know anything about this dog at all , but i observed her at the bus stop. There were at least 200 people sending their kids off to camp. Kids and adults were all over the parking lot. Several kids and adults ran up to this dog and were petting her. she sat calmly at her owners side. She did not have a problem with all the bustle. The breeder has had this dog for the past year and He/ she seems very well adjusted.
I just wanted to tell you my observations.
Totally not promoting doodles, just they get a lot of bashing here and this is what I observed.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

mom2Zoe said:


> well said!!!
> I didn't mean to start drama when starting this thread.... I am sorry.


You don't have to apologize. I see nothing wrong with your post. It's ridiculous if anyone thinks this is promoting doodles. And your observation of this well adjusted dog, I have experienced too with every doodle I met...so far. The one we ran into when on our little day trip was sitting calmly, very well behaved and looking adoringly at the owner and very affectionately to the other 3 or 4 people standing there talking, including my daughter and me. The owner was crazy about her dog and said he didn't shed. No promotion here. Just an experience. I still don't think they should be bred except for the reasons I mentioned earlier. And I don't like dogs bred for fads.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> You don't have to apologize. I see nothing wrong with your post. It's ridiculous if anyone thinks this is promoting doodles. And your observation of this well adjusted dog, I have experienced too with every doodle I met...so far. The one we ran into when on our little day trip was sitting calmly, very well behaved and looking adoringly at the owner and very affectionately to the other 3 or 4 people standing there talking, including my daughter and me. The owner was crazy about her dog and said he didn't shed. No promotion here. Just an experience. I still don't think they should be bred except for the reasons I mentioned earlier. And I don't like dogs bred for fads.


Yes, just an observation . I was very impressed considering that they had this dog less than a week.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Zoe - that's great! All dogs have different personalities but that's not a doodle trait (which I'm sure that's not what you were insinuating). Naira is exactly like that dog. Even with kids running up and screaming trying to pet her she stands there without flinching thoroughly enjoying it. She has never met a stranger, and welcomes everyone. Last weekend she let several rowdy kids pet her simultaneously...even the two that were afraid of dogs eventually pet her because they saw for loving she was with the other kids. 

I know a lot of people associate labs and goldens with the traits I described above but you can find those same qualities in a full poodle. Once the doodle is here who can dislike it? They are so friendly and cute. It's everything that happens before that some find unethical/misleading.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Naira said:


> Zoe - that's great! All dogs have different personalities but that's not a doodle trait (which I'm sure that's not what you were insinuating). Naira is exactly like that dog. Even with kids running up and screaming trying to pet her she stands there without flinching thoroughly enjoying it. She has never met a stranger, and welcomes everyone. Last weekend she let several rowdy kids pet her simultaneously...even the two that were afraid of dogs eventually pet her because they saw for loving she was with the other kids.
> 
> I know a lot of people associate labs and goldens with the traits I described above but you can find those same qualities in a full poodle. Once the doodle is here who can dislike it? They are so friendly and cute. It's everything that happens before that some find unethical/misleading.



All dogs have different personalities exactly the point. Wasn't attributing it to doddle traits, think that was understood.


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