# Mutts, Doodles, Poodles, a healthy discussion!



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Interesting article on "hybrid vigor." Here are some excerpts and the link.

Mixed Mutts and Designer Crosses: Are They Healthier Than Purebred Dogs?
According to conventional wisdom, mixed-breed dogs and cats are healthier than their purebred counterparts. On the surface, it makes sense: Dip too often into a shallow gene pool and the pet is more likely to inherit health problems. So mixing things up between breeds should create healthier genetic hybrids, right?...

This genetic hodgepodge and its perceived health advantages has been a selling point for designer dogs, such as Labradoodles, Yorkipoos and Puggles. And it’s one reason why breeders have been able to ask exorbitant prices....

In a five-year study of veterinary cases at the University of California-Davis, there was no difference between mixed-breed and purebred dogs in the prevalence of common inherited disorders. Even designer-bred dogs were being seen with hereditary conditions that it was assumed crossbreeding would eliminate: hip dysplasia, epilepsy, cancer, hypothyroidism, eye disorders and more.

But it’s simply not what veterinarians are encountering in practice, according to a recent presentation at the Western Veterinary Conference by Dr. Jerold Bell, clinical associate professor at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine and author of Veterinary Medical Guide to Dog and Cat Breeds......

If you cross a Labrador Retriever that has hip dysplasia with a Poodle that has hip dysplasia, what do you get? Chances are, a Labradoodle with hip dysplasia. In addition to hip problems, Labradoodles are now being diagnosed with Addison’s disease (a deficiency in adrenal hormones) and elbow dysplasia—two genetic disorders that are common to purebred Labradors and Poodles.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I keep sending that article to Petplan complaining that they charge a lower rate for poodle mixes then poodles (as do ALL pet insurance companies), but so far, it has not moved them to change....


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## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

I have often wondered about doodles. My daughter has a yorkie and I can't help but notice how differently poodles and yorkies are built. Surely mixing breeds with different skeletal structure must play a roll in some health issues.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sweetp said:


> I have often wondered about doodles. My daughter has a yorkie and I can't help but notice how differently poodles and yorkies are built. Surely mixing breeds with different skeletal structure must play a roll in some health issues.


Yes, and you never know what they will look like - have seen some really adorable mixes, and some that look straight out of a horror movie!

But IMHO, the worst part about it is that 99.9% of these dogs are bred for profit or for "fun", with zero regard for what kind of health issues or temperament are in their backgrounds, and no health testing of the parents 

Logic would dictate that with such haphazard breeding, the odds of their being healthy would be much less then pups from a reputable, health testing show breeder who studies pedigrees dozens of generations back to eliminate faults and health issues from their lines! 
It's about time that people (and especially Insurance Companies) let go of that "hybrid vigor" old wives tale, and took a look at the multitudes of malformed, out of control, and un-healthy creatures that much of this kind of breeding produces!


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

Hybrid vigour as a concept is correct, but what people forget when it comes to dogs is that many breeds of dogs carry the same sets of problems. You would have to deliberately cross 2 healthy individuals from 2 breeds of dogs that carried different problems to avoid health issues. Needless to say, BYBs and mills are not going to start out with particularly healthy individuals, nor do they tend to cross breeds that have different problems, so the project falls flat and you get a "doodle" with dysplasia, addisons, and epilepsy. :argh:


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

My argument against intentionally breeding mutts exactly!!! Very seldom do you get LESS problems, almost always you get MORE


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Curls said:


> Hybrid vigour as a concept is correct, but what people forget when it comes to dogs is that many breeds of dogs carry the same sets of problems. You would have to deliberately cross 2 healthy individuals from 2 breeds of dogs that carried different problems to avoid health issues. Needless to say, BYBs and mills are not going to start out with particularly healthy individuals, nor do they tend to cross breeds that have different problems, so the project falls flat and you get a "doodle" with dysplasia, addisons, and epilepsy. :argh:


Well Hybrid Vigor MAY be a correct concept when it comes to a true "mutt", but you rarely see that anymore - but they are falsely attributing it as a selling point for cross breeds (which are almost always crosses of puppy mill and backyard breeder stock).

They way that the insurance companies are applying it is absurd - if somebody put their puppy mill Cavalier King Charles Spaniel in their yard with their neighbors Pug, and made puppies, those puppies would be considered a lower risk then a purebred from the most conscientious, health testing show breeder.
AND, a puppy mill poodle is considered at the same risk as one from the top breeder in the country! It's just WRONG!


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well Hybrid Vigor MAY be a correct concept when it comes to a true "mutt", but you rarely see that anymore - but they are falsely attributing it as a selling point for cross breeds (which are almost always crosses of puppy mill and backyard breeder stock).
> 
> They way that the insurance companies are applying it is absurd - if somebody put their puppy mill Cavalier King Charles Spaniel in their yard with their neighbors Pug, and made puppies, those puppies would be considered a lower risk then a purebred from the most conscientious, health testing show breeder.
> AND, a puppy mill poodle is considered at the same risk as one from the top breeder in the country! It's just WRONG!


exactly! And this is why I AM worried about having insurance on both my Golden and my Poodle. They are NOT from good breeders - they are rescues from bad breeders, and I have no papers or pedigree or background I can research to find what potential problems their genes may carry! So why would I in my wildest dreams think of breeding them together (theoretically of course since they're both female LOL). The thing that I hate hearing is "health tested parents" when they're selling in the paper or on Craigslist - Ok, FOR WHAT? No papers on either parent - what, did your vet do a heartworm test? LOL. There is no middle ground in my eyes - it's all or nothing, and if you EVER have a breeder tell you there are no health issues in their lines or their dogs RUN! That is NEVER true. They may not have SEEN it in their lines, but if they researched hard enough they'd find some fault or health problem they are trying to breed out or correct by carefully choosing their breeding stock. A good breeder will be honest with you about this - a scummy breeder will say whatever he thinks you want to hear!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Servicepoodlemomma said:


> exactly! And this is why I AM worried about having insurance on both my Golden and my Poodle. They are NOT from good breeders - they are rescues from bad breeders, and I have no papers or pedigree or background I can research to find what potential problems their genes may carry! *Well then you are in luck, because even though you don't know what's behind them, they will pay the same rate as a golden or a poodle from the best breeder in the country!* So why would I in my wildest dreams think of breeding them together (theoretically of course since they're both female LOL). The thing that I hate hearing is "health tested parents" when they're selling in the paper or on Craigslist - Ok, FOR WHAT? No papers on either parent - what, did your vet do a heartworm test? LOL. There is no middle ground in my eyes - it's all or nothing, and if you EVER have a breeder tell you there are no health issues in their lines or their dogs RUN! That is NEVER true. They may not have SEEN it in their lines, but if they researched hard enough they'd find some fault or health problem they are trying to breed out or correct by carefully choosing their breeding stock. A good breeder will be honest with you about this - a scummy breeder will say whatever he thinks you want to hear!


Just saw someone today on Craigslist advertising their 2 freaky looking "Maltipoo" puppies saying "I was going to keep them to show, but they are staying too small to breed" - Show them where?! Show them to your neighbors puppymill Yorkie to make more mixed breeds?!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I think the hybrid vigor argument is true only if dogs are free to choose who they breed with over several generations and no efforts are made to prolong the lives of their offspring if they are born damaged in some way so that nature can take its course. I read a study once that anywhere in the world, if dogs are permitted to breed freely, they all settle after several generations into a similar looking dog that is tan in colour, about 30 lbs, with shorter legs than body, prick ears and a long tail. As soon as people start to arrange breedings between 2 dogs, nature's hybrid vigor is interrupted. So that's why breeders health test! And study, study, study to make sure any potential breeding is going to improve the breed if possible.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

To play devil's advocate here, Jake, my heart dog, did not come from a reputable breeder, but instead a pet shop. And I never intended on looking for a puppy at a pet shop but, my BF was getting supplies for his saltwater fish tank and I said, "I'll go look at the puppies" to which he immediately responded NO!!!! (guess he knew me). Well, we ended up with fish supplies AND a brown mini poodle I named Jake. He lived to 16 1/2 and never had any serious health issues, other than allergies, and at age 12 a CCL tear, which was expensive, but he ruptured it playing with a kong in the park. So, if he had been from a reputable breeder (or not) it would not really have made a difference in his case. I have never purchased health insurance in my 30 years of owning poodles but was replying here to an early poster talking about the cost of insurance for different breeds.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

liljaker said:


> To play devil's advocate here, Jake, my heart dog, did not come from a reputable breeder, but instead a pet shop. And I never intended on looking for a puppy at a pet shop but, my BF was getting supplies for his saltwater fish tank and I said, "I'll go look at the puppies" to which he immediately responded NO!!!! (guess he knew me). Well, we ended up with fish supplies AND a brown mini poodle I named Jake. He lived to 16 1/2 and never had any serious health issues, other than allergies, and at age 12 a CCL tear, which was expensive, but he ruptured it playing with a kong in the park. So, if he had been from a reputable breeder (or not) it would not really have made a difference in his case. I have never purchased health insurance in my 30 years of owning poodles but was replying here to an early poster talking about the cost of insurance for different breeds.


Yeah isn't that funny liljaker? My sisters have had pet shop dogs (and good quality ones, but more pet shop dogs than otherwise) and my brother bought extremely expensive, well-bred dogs and guess which dogs were healthier? I know it must not be true statistically but in their cases, the pet shop dogs lived long healthy lives! So weird.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Nevermind!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

liljaker said:


> To play devil's advocate here, Jake, my heart dog, did not come from a reputable breeder, but instead a pet shop. And I never intended on looking for a puppy at a pet shop but, my BF was getting supplies for his saltwater fish tank and I said, "I'll go look at the puppies" to which he immediately responded NO!!!! (guess he knew me). Well, we ended up with fish supplies AND a brown mini poodle I named Jake. He lived to 16 1/2 and never had any serious health issues, other than allergies, and at age 12 a CCL tear, which was expensive, but he ruptured it playing with a kong in the park. So, if he had been from a reputable breeder (or not) it would not really have made a difference in his case. I have never purchased health insurance in my 30 years of owning poodles but was replying here to an early poster talking about the cost of insurance for different breeds.


Of course there are many pet store dogs that live long healthy lives, and sometimes you get a sickly one from a reputable breeder - I was simply saying that your odds of getting a healthy one are better with the reputable breeder (as are you chances of getting a good temperament and conformation) - breeding is definitely not an exact science, even in the best of hands!


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

75% Poodle? Ok, this was a first. 

Out on our walk this morning and we were approached by what looked like a black/dark grey poodle, gay tail, freshly groomed with a teddy bear face, but definitely looked like an oversize toy. The woman introduced us to "Max" and she said he is actually 75% poodle. He was a pup from a goldendoodle bred to a miniature black poodle, so her theory is that he is really 75% poodle. Ok, I guess, so if Max were bred to another poodle.........unbelievable. What's wrong with a poodle???? It really baffles me, especially she seemed particularly proud of the "75%" poodle part of him!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

liljaker said:


> 75% Poodle? Ok, this was a first.
> 
> Out on our walk this morning and we were approached by what looked like a black/dark grey poodle, gay tail, freshly groomed with a teddy bear face, but definitely looked like an oversize toy. The woman introduced us to "Max" and she said he is actually 75% poodle. He was a pup from a goldendoodle bred to a miniature black poodle, so her theory is that he is really 75% poodle. Ok, I guess, so if Max were bred to another poodle.........unbelievable. What's wrong with a poodle???? It really baffles me, especially she seemed particularly proud of the "75%" poodle part of him!


I just don't understand why most of the general public fails to see what is so obvious to me - If dozens and dozens of other breeds are vastly improved by mixing them with a poodle, why not just get a 100% of the breed that is so good that it improves all the rest?!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

liljaker said:


> 75% Poodle? Ok, this was a first.
> 
> Out on our walk this morning and we were approached by what looked like a black/dark grey poodle, gay tail, freshly groomed with a teddy bear face, but definitely looked like an oversize toy. The woman introduced us to "Max" and she said he is actually 75% poodle. He was a pup from a goldendoodle bred to a miniature black poodle, so her theory is that he is really 75% poodle. Ok, I guess, so if Max were bred to another poodle.........unbelievable. What's wrong with a poodle???? It really baffles me, especially she seemed particularly proud of the "75%" poodle part of him!


:doh: Just one question: Do you think she pays 25% less for the grooming?!  IMO it points to the need for AKC, UKC, CKC and breed clubs to do a _much_ better job of educating the public. It's scary how the internet has become the high-speed rail for unscrupulous and pyramid-style sellers to hawk their pups. Cute puppy pictures, flowery prose and banners proclaiming "shipped to your door!" tempt far too many people who simply don't know better.

As for "what's wrong with a poodle?" I think it's a matter of some people harboring misconceptions about them (fou-fou dogs, yappy, snappy type nonsense). We'll just have to be the "Johnny Appleseeds" here and spread the word about how incredible the breed is. You just keep walking Sunny around, there's no better ambassador to show them!


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

True!! Spread the poodle word!!! I do every chance I get!!! Ps they pay more for grooming !! Lol


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

It's true - I can't tell you how many times admirers ask WHAT my girls are (98% puppy mill poodles that bare little resemblance to my girls around here), and when I tell them poodles, I can actually see the wheels turning in their head as their impression of what a poodle is does a complete turn around


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## spoo novice (Mar 22, 2013)

I wonder if mixed breed owners are as likely to take their dogs to the vet as often as purebred owners...or maybe not as intuned to the potential problems so they go unrecognized and untreated.


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## spoo novice (Mar 22, 2013)

I am not suggesting that all mixed breed owners are negligent! I am sure many are very caring and attentive to their dogs! Just wondering as a larger population, if they would be less likely...just wondering what the different factors might be if vets are not seeing the health issues in mixed breeds.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I can only imagine that statistical data must have been used to determine the # visits = OOP costs, etc. and it was probably categorized by breed? Would be interesting to know what geographical area the statistics were pulled from. I know in my town the people are all pretty responsible pet owners and purebred dogs don't see vets more than any other pet -- I am sure. I would ask the pet insurance company why one breed r purebred is higher than another.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

spoo novice said:


> I wonder if mixed breed owners are as likely to take their dogs to the vet as often as purebred owners...or maybe not as intuned to the potential problems so they go unrecognized and untreated.


I've wondered about that too - I bet that overall mixed breeds are not taken to the Vet as often.

But I am not sure where the Pet Health Insurance Industry gets their Data - if they are looking at the general population, and finding that mixed breeds do not spend as much as the Vet as purebreds, that could simply mean that overall mixed breeds are neglected more then purebreds, and their justification for charging less to insure them is incorrect.

But if they are looking at the statistics for those who already DO have health insurance for their dogs, and finding that mixed breeds make less claims, then they may have a valid point, because I am sure that anybody who invests in insuring their dog is not neglecting it, no matter what it's breeding is.
However, given what we know about this kind of "designer breeding", I just find it really hard to believe that this would be the case - especially for Toy Poodles, where the primary inherited disease that they worry about is luxating patella's - which the new studies prove are no more common in purebreds then mixes!


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

I think that people who rescue mixed breeds from pounds are to be highly commended, but I don't understand those who purchase from a breeder of these designer dogs. I would like to give them the benefit of the doubt and say they just don't know any better, but....

So may of these mixed breeds have health and temperament issues. I'm not sure where it was, but recently I read an article in which the man who first crossed a lab and a poodle to begin the breed in an attempt to help a person who required a hypo-allergenic service dog, stated that he wished that he had never done it. If anyone knows where the article is, post a link, it was a good read.

The other thing that I, personally don't understand, is why standard poodle breeders would do business with a breeder of doodles. The purpose of breeding is to work towards improving both the health and conformation of a breed and by transacting with one of these doodle breeders, you are just adding money to their pockets so that they can continue on with their high dollar value product line.

I know that there will be doodle breeders regardless of who uses their poodles, but it just doesn't make sense to me to help their business.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Cavon, was it an article similar to this?

Whose bright idea was that? | Science | The Guardian

I don't actually have a problem with Wally Conron's original cross. He was a very experienced dog breeder and trainer. He knew exactly what traits he was aiming for. He had failed to find these traits in either a purebred poodle or a purebred lab. When he did do the cross, he used the best lab and the best poodle he could find. What he did was the same as when Louis Dobermann wanted a better guard dog and when Parson Russell wanted a better vermin hunter. Unfortunately, Conron's copycats aren't as savvy as he is, and we haven't had a 100+ years to forget about the F1 crosses that didn't work out so well.


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## spoo novice (Mar 22, 2013)

I think a lot of people are misinformed or just uneducated in regard to doodles and other mixes. I met a lady this week who had a huge dog that, at first, I thought was a standard poodle. Actually, it was a golden doodle. Pretty dog, but she was boisterous and very barky. Rocco was with me and sat quietly as we talked briefly. 
She said she had wanted a poodle, but found she preferred doodles because of their great temperaments...hmmm. Anyway, she admired Rocco and asked if he was intact. I said he was, currently, but I was obliged to have him neutered. She said she was going to breed her dog and wouldnt the two of them make a great cross! For the sake of time, I said, uh-huh...but Rocco will be getting neutered. It was obvious she wouldn't have gotten it if I had tried to explain the need for testing, etc., and how complicated breeding really is...and nothing I want to get into. I truly think she believes she has a superior animal over a purebred standard poodle. 
She also mentioned that her dog was hypo-allergenic...logically, how can that be guaranteed when half the chromosomes of doodles come from labs or goldens? I think the doodle folks have done a good job in spinning the facts of their products. You know, if it's on the internet, it's true!


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

I had a lab/poodle mix in today to be shaved. When the lady picked him up she said "Yeah, that thing about them not shedding is bull!" I told her that because they're mixes, you never know what you're going to get. He was a super sweet boy though. I had 3 golden/poodle mixes in on Thursday from the same litter and 2 were flat coats and 1 was a curly coat. Just too unpredictable for me. 


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW Guys!!!! As everyone knows, Molly is a 'Poodle Mutt' and when I am out in public with her and I have people exclaim "What a beautiful Poodle" I always explain that she is not pure bred. She obviously has good poodle genes and is a credit to her poodle side! She is probably better behaved than many of the purebreds!..........Molly may be a 'poodle mutt' but she is just as good as any purebred to me because I LOVE HER!

SO THERE!!!!!!

P.S. I don't think people who love their dogs spend any less to keep them healthy if they are purebred or not!!! 
At least when I was a vet tech I have to say we saw more mixed breeds than purebreds on a daily average! I saw as many poorly cared for purebreds as I did Mutts!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

MollyMuiMa said:


> WOW Guys!!!! As everyone knows, Molly is a 'Poodle Mutt' and when I am out in public with her and I have people exclaim "What a beautiful Poodle" I always explain that she is not pure bred. She obviously has good poodle genes and is a credit to her poodle side! She is probably better behaved than many of the purebreds!..........Molly may be a 'poodle mutt' but she is just as good as any purebred to me because I LOVE HER!
> 
> SO THERE!!!!!!
> 
> ...



I agree that purebred v. mutt is no indication of how much care money is spend on a dog. I would not be surprised at all if Molly is better behaved than most purebreds with all the attention she has received from you. I do think that breeding doodles is a crap shoot. You may get wonderful dogs like Molly with a great temperament or you may get dogs that matt and shed. If I were looking for a dog and saw Molly in a shelter I would be in line to get her but I would not breed for her. You won the lottery in Molly but unfortunately many doodle owners do not. My sister's dog was suppose to be the size of a mini. She ended up with a pony. The dog has a lovely temperament but matts and sheds and has lots of health issues.


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