# Over Excited Greeting



## PeteD (Nov 6, 2014)

Hi All,

This is my first post and already I've met some lovely Poodle owners!

We have a 5 and a half month old Standard Poodle boy (Todd), we've had him since 8 weeks and have been practicing hard with the training. He is a fantastic puppy and we really are so pleased that he is well behaved in pretty much every area.

The only area that is causing us concern is the 'over-excited greeting' - when we let him off the lead and he sees someone (not every person but about 40%, especially runners and children 6 yrs+), he will run up to them and want to play, the only trouble is this has started coming out as trouser biting. He will nip at their trousers, wanting to play, but (understandably) people take offense to this and we're so worried someone will not accept our apologies. Now, he is very soft mouthed as we taught this early on and so never damages the clothes or hurts them - but as he gets bigger he is more intimidating to people who don't know him.

We have tried having him on the long lead and rewarding him for walking past people without acknowledging them (we use positive reinforcement training and have a wonderful training club), but as soon as he's off the lead the 40% of the time returns.

Also, when he is off the lead, if he sees another dog he will go to it even despite our efforts to require him to gain our approval first.

Please can someone advise as we just want to be able to trust him off the lead. We're worried he will greet the wrong person in this way and they will not be so understanding.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Please bear with me in replying as I'm very busy with work currently and my social computer time is limited.

Thank you.

Pete


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

I know your question was about "off lead" but you need to keep your puppy on lead until he is 100% reliable. IMO, every time he does the unwanted behavior, you are ingraining that bad habit so I would keep him on lead until he proves himself to be trustworthy off lead. 

pr


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## PeteD (Nov 6, 2014)

That's the thing - he does 'prove' himself on-lead. Therefore we let him off lead and then he does it again so we revert back to on-lead. I'm looking for an alternative training method as rewarding the desired behaviour and putting him on-lead for the non-desired behaviour does not seem to be working in the long term.

Can you please explain how you see we are 'ingraining' this behaviour in him by using this method?? 

Thank you


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Do you have some friends with children and/or dogs that you could enlist to help you? That way you would be able to set it up so that bad behaviour - the jumping and mouthing - is ignored, while polite behaviour is rewarded with attention. I think I would also work on polite greetings on leash, so that as far as possible listening to me and waiting was rewarded by being permitted to greet the human or dog, with the same rules about being polite enforced, rather than being on leash meaning that he has to walk past. I use "Say hello nicely!" as a reminder for polite greeting of humans, and "Politely!" as a general reminder for good manners around both dogs and people. "With me" means that we are going to walk past without stopping. That way I can cue appropriate behaviour whether they are on or off lead.

It can lead to some charming moments. A very small boy asked me if he could stroke Sophy. I thanked him for asking, and said she would like a gentle stroke. Then I said "Say hello nicely, love!". "I will!" promised the little boy solemnly...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

PeteD said:


> That's the thing - he does 'prove' himself on-lead. Therefore we let him off lead and then he does it again so we revert back to on-lead. I'm looking for an alternative training method as rewarding the desired behaviour and putting him on-lead for the non-desired behaviour does not seem to be working in the long term.
> 
> *Can you please explain how you see we are 'ingraining' this behaviour in him by using this method?? *
> 
> Thank you


You're ingraining this behavior because when a dog gets to practice a behavior over and over and it's reinforcing for him...(it's FUN, lol) it is more apt to be repeated in the future. When a behavior is not reinforced...is not practiced, it will extinguish eventually. So, when you plunk him in an uncontrolled environment where the stimulation is just too much for him, he can't control himself. The best way to fix this is to only try him off leash in a very controlled setting that you prepare for him...make the stimuli that triggers this behavior as mild as possible. Start him out with very little stimulation and as he is reinforced for good behavior and he starts handling that level, then add a little more pressure. If he is rewarded for this behavior...ie: ANY attention (since it's attention seeking behavior) it will continue. So, the mauling needs to be ignored and calm behavior earns him attention and/or treats. But set him up so he's more likely to succeed and that's done by creating practice sessions where there's very mild stimulation. Otherwise, when you can't set up the environment, keep him on a leash.

Additionally, in the meantime, teach him some self control exercises (look up Kiko pup videos). Teach him what TO DO instead of mauling. Teach him a reliable sit, focus on you or something else. Teach him that the only time he gets attention (good or bad attention) is when he's displaying behavior you like. Lots of obedience training is very good because not only do they learn those "tricks" but it has a more global effect on behavior in a general way and that effect is very good. 

Happy training.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

PeteD said:


> That's the thing - he does 'prove' himself on-lead. Therefore we let him off lead and then he does it again so we revert back to on-lead. I'm looking for an alternative training method as rewarding the desired behaviour and putting him on-lead for the non-desired behaviour does not seem to be working in the long term.
> 
> Can you please explain how you see we are 'ingraining' this behaviour in him by using this method??
> 
> Thank you


You don't want to set up your dog to fail... if he is failing 40% of the time, I would avoid those failures and come back to that skill later when you are pretty certain he is going to succeed. 

In your case, you take him off the lead and he doesn't listen. You have him on the lead and he does listen. I would be afraid that I am inadvertently teaching him that he does not have to listen off lead and I would avoid that at all costs. 

You have been training your dog and you know him best. Why do you think he is failing? 

I hope Lily cd chimes in here because she is a bona fide dog trainer. 

pr


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Just a thought...if you determine that this is not exclusively an attention seeking behavior but also just plain fun in itself...a _self rewarding _behavior, you will really, especially have to take measures to prevent it in the first place. Remember in either case, you will want to try to distract him BEFORE (whenever possible) he begins to engage in this behavior. Give him something else to do instead that is equally or more fun or rewarding. Hence...why plenty of obedience skills or tricks come in handy. You can easily then, divert his energy to doing something more constructive. Try your best to catch it before he begins his shenanigans. Keep him very busy doing this trick, then this, then that plus lots of physical exercise. All this, plus teaching him the way to greet that will pay of the best for him...will work the best for him should get him over this nonsense. 

Ps....I'm a retired behavior specialist/trainer.


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## PeteD (Nov 6, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Just a thought...if you determine that this is not exclusively an attention seeking behavior but also just plain fun in itself...a _self rewarding _behavior, you will really, especially have to take measures to prevent it in the first place. Remember in either case, you will want to try to distract him BEFORE (whenever possible) he begins to engage in this behavior. Give him something else to do instead that is equally or more fun or rewarding. Hence...why plenty of obedience skills or tricks come in handy. You can easily then, divert his energy to doing something more constructive. Try your best to catch it before he begins his shenanigans. Keep him very busy doing this trick, then this, then that plus lots of physical exercise. All this, plus teaching him the way to greet that will pay of the best for him...will work the best for him should get him over this nonsense.
> 
> Ps....I'm a retired behavior specialist/trainer.


Thank you all who have replied. I feel 'Poodlebeguiled' has got the behaviour the closest to what he is doing. We do make ourselves as 'entertaining' at these moments as possible, lots of encouragement, treats and 'touch' games to distract him from the person or people. He has certainly improved with this. I feel he just sees it as a game, I guess we just need to be a more exciting game! When I see a runner or walker approaching I call him over and treat him for a sit and wait command (which he does very well) and then try a hand touch or two until they have passed far enough away for me to 'ok' him for release. He is improving so I think some more persistence is needed.

As for the other dogs, that is something that I always keep an eye out for and only let him off when I know the area is safe and/or there are no other dogs around. He is only young still so I'm sure he'll pick it up.

Thank you for your advice all and I'll get some pictures up soon


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I just remembered this neat thing...I love it. I love the philosophy and everything...the idea of re directing that craziness to something else. It is true...myself included...we often have that automatic thinking that we need to simply stop a crazy behavior, slow the dog, calm the dog but this is a great thing to adopt or interject into our way of being with our dogs.

I see people in my conformation class with their puppies...often standards...and they're all saying, "no" and jerking the leashes when their puppies are biting the leash, bouncing around....it's all business. Well, with my puppy, I never made a fuss about biting the leash or the rest of his silliness. I rewarded the behaviors I did like and those things just sort of died down or got transferred into something else. So my Poodle is a very good show dog and he'll make a great agility dog. He's got that pep, energy, enthusiasm...not squelched much. 

So I'd see about channeling some of that bounciness but into something else and not try to simply stop it. Check out this:

How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I just remembered this neat thing...I love it. I love the philosophy and everything...the idea of re directing that craziness to something else. It is true...myself included...we often have that automatic thinking that we need to simply stop a crazy behavior, slow the dog, calm the dog but this is a great thing to adopt or interject into our way of being with our dogs...
> 
> So I'd see about channeling some of that bounciness but into something else and not try to simply stop it. Check out this:
> 
> How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training


Thanks for posting this link to yet another bit of terrific advice from Karen Pryor. It REALLY hit a home run with me! (Boldface is mine. I knew a *silver* mini pup like that once upon a time.) 

Provide an energy release. Most people don't realize how stressful learning can be. Stress isn't necessarily bad. In fact, sometimes it's not distress, but eustress (a pleasant or curative stress). Stress does still take a toll on the dog, though. Many dogs indicate that they need a break by losing attention, wandering away, or sniffing.* My favorite crazy dogs indicate fatigue by launching themselves at you or another attractive outlet, or by jumping, nipping and barking.*

There has to be a way for the dog to dump energy, and it should almost always be through movement. Play tug, prompt a favorite active trick, or simply move about. Place this release behavior on cue early in training and use it to release energy when the dog has been demonstrating a good deal of self-control or otherwise working hard.

If the dog explodes energetically outside of the cue, that means the training has continued too long or an unrealistic jump in criteria was attempted. Adjust the training and try again.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I had never thought of it that way, but one of Poppy's favourite rewards is a brief burst of being silly - spinning, jumping up, pretending to catch at hands, and generally letting off steam. It is on cue, so is only with permission, and is nearly as high value as chicken!


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I think Poodlebeguiled gives great advice. We have a 12 month old standard that we want to hunt with, so we have been working really hard at making sure he is reliable off lead, even in very distracting situations. He is to the point now that we can recall him back from a retrieve (or chasing wildlife, etc). That being said, we still don't let him off lead around people or other dogs. He would be fine, but I just feel like people can be unpredictable...you never know when someone will react badly to a dog that is off lead. And of course you never know about other dogs either. We do hike with him off lead, but only when we are pretty sure we won't encounter anyone else. 

We got the book "Train Your Dog Like a Pro" when he was a puppy and used the methods in that book to teach the recall and high distraction stays. 

The recall is kind of hard to explain (at least without a super long explanation). But it starts with novel-to-novel conditioning (basically you pair a sound that your dog has never heard before with a super amazing reward that your dog has never had before) and then moves on to what the book calls a "Premack recall." To teach the Premack recall, you need 2 people. One person has the reward (and the dog knows it is there). The other person has nothing. The person with nothing makes the novel sound once, then tries to get the dog to come (without repeating the novel sound). Once the dog gives up on the person with the goodies and goes to the person calling him, the person with the goodies comes to the person with nothing, then rewards the dog. Hopefully I'm explaining that well enough...there is more info in the book but it's too much to type I think. We did this early on, then continued to heavily reinforce recalls. Also, we didn't use the recall in "real life" until we were sure it was solid (ie, we only called him when we were sure he would come, so he didn't get the idea that he could ignore us). 

It really does work well, as complicated as it sounds. I was skeptical about being able to get good recalls away from "fun stuff" like retrieves or chasing wildlife using only positive reinforcement, but it does seem to work.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

FireStorm said:


> I think Poodlebeguiled gives great advice. We have a 12 month old standard that we want to hunt with, so we have been working really hard at making sure he is reliable off lead, even in very distracting situations. He is to the point now that we can recall him back from a retrieve (or chasing wildlife, etc). That being said, we still don't let him off lead around people or other dogs. He would be fine, but I just feel like people can be unpredictable...you never know when someone will react badly to a dog that is off lead. And of course you never know about other dogs either. We do hike with him off lead, but only when we are pretty sure we won't encounter anyone else.
> 
> We got the book "Train Your Dog Like a Pro" when he was a puppy and used the methods in that book to teach the recall and high distraction stays.
> 
> ...


Thanks Firestorm. What you describe is similar to the way I trained my Doberman to have a stupendous recall...to be called off of prey. He would recall in mid chase of deer and anything else where we use to hike in Idaho where I use to live. I used a bucket, a helper, fake prey on a rope, plus gourmet treats, like fillet mignon with a mushroom reduction sauce. lol. That philosophy is great for training in a global way._ If you don't get it, you *WILL* get it._ 

Other times when out on hikes, (there was never anyone around so we went off leash with the other dogs too) I'd just call them back after they'd gone on ahead about 200 feet or so and they got a good treat, then they could right away go back to what they were doing. (with a release cue) Soon, it was on default and I didn't call them back. They'd do what I called, checking in. Every couple hundred feet or so, they automatically ran back to me for a treat. So, cued or uncued, they all had really good recalls. They had to where we lived. (bears, moose, deer, elk, coyotes, you name it)

It sounds like your practice has paid off. It's so nice to have a dog that you can rely on. Well done!


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Other times when out on hikes, (there was never anyone around so we went off leash with the other dogs too) I'd just call them back after they'd gone on ahead about 200 feet or so and they got a good treat, then they could right away go back to what they were doing. (with a release cue) Soon, it was on default and I didn't call them back. They'd do what I called, checking in. Every couple hundred feet or so, they automatically ran back to me for a treat. So, cued or uncued, they all had really good recalls. They had to where we lived. (bears, moose, deer, elk, coyotes, you name it)
> 
> It sounds like your practice has paid off. It's so nice to have a dog that you can rely on. Well done!


We did this with Hans, too. We started it in the house and fenced yard when we first brought him home and then continued it in the woods. It worked really well. Hans is the most reliable dog I've had off lead, and he's been trained with the most positive methods. 

I've had a dog that was a chronic runaway before, and it took a lot of work to correct it so I wanted to make sure Hans never got that way to begin with.


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## PeteD (Nov 6, 2014)

These pieces of advice sound brilliant. Still practicing here and he is certainly improving.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> <snip>
> I see people in my conformation class with their puppies...often standards...and they're all saying, "no" and jerking the leashes when their puppies are biting the leash, bouncing around....it's all business. Well, with my puppy, I never made a fuss about biting the leash or the rest of his silliness. I rewarded the behaviors I did like and those things just sort of died down or got transferred into something else. So my Poodle is a very good show dog and he'll make a great agility dog. He's got that pep, energy, enthusiasm...not squelched much.
> <snip>


Something mentioned earlier in this thread caught my eye--about not setting the dog up to fail. I took a Susan Garrett online Recallers course (paid for by someone else--too rich for my blood, really) where "failure" is encouraged because that's when the dog learns will not work. In the above quote, the puppies' failure was leash-biting, which was not rewarded. Once they learned what behaviors were rewarded, they offered them.

That said, Garrett recommends taking the dog by the collar and leading him away from the overwhelmingly attractive distraction until he is far enough away to resume paying attention to you. To make the dog readily accept a hand in the collar, she advises a collar-grab game where you put your hand in the collar, pull the dog to your leg (assuming heel position on either side), and pop a great treat in his mouth. She says her dogs will come up and offer her their collars--we haven't reached that point yet. But a dog that does NOT dodge or resent a collar grab is a safer dog in emergency or unexpected situations.

By the way, my Standard will be 3 in February and is not allowed to go visit dogs and people, either on-leash or off. (There are rare exceptions.) I am showing him in breed and performance, where many other exhibitors resent it when another dog gets in their dog's face--as my rude, friendly boy will do if I let him. However, he has been allowed to play with a trusted group of well-socialized dogs, where he has shown himself to be a gentleman--willing to play if invited, willing to retreat if snarled at.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes, absolutely a good thing to teach a quick and desperate collar grab and pulling toward you is paired with a stupendous treat. If it's too startling to the dog, it can be worked up to from mild to more quick. Sometimes people have to grab a collar when the UPS man knocks on the door. If the dog is not taught to stay back and the owner grabs the collar, often they'll turn and snap just out of reflex. So, some conditioning is a good preventative measure. I did that with a few of my dogs in the past...haven't really practiced it lately, as I wouldn't tend to grab these guy's in that kind of situation since they don't wear collars in the house. I'd just pick them up if need be and they already are very accustomed to that. Meanwhile, they're learning to stay back on a matt when someone comes to the door. They're just not reliable on that yet.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Can we get back to the overexcited jumping? I have used the long line, practiced with set ups and I am not getting consistent, polite greetings. I really wanted to get this sorted before Thanksgiving


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

turn head away from him, nose in the air, do not look at him, do not speak. do it every single time your dog jumps. this is based on turid rugaas' explanation of body language in dogs; she says it's actually a calming signal. seems to have worked for at least one pf member here who was playing with her dog outside - no leash.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Mfmst said:


> Can we get back to the overexcited jumping? I have used the long line, practiced with set ups and I am not getting consistent, polite greetings. I really wanted to get this sorted before Thanksgiving


I'm sure others will chime in, but here's my 2 cents' worth:

Forget the long line--the dog will be too far away for any kind of control. And unless you can train your guests to follow the protocol (whichever protocol you choose) EXACTLY, it won't work because it will lack consistency, someone will allow jumping up, and it will all go to H. E. Double Toothpicks in short order.

When guests come, put the dog in a crate in a quiet room with a Kong full of frozen canned dog food or something else wonderful.

But if you want a training protocol, I wish to recommend whatever you can find on Dr. Sophia Yin's web site. It's full of helpful videos available for free viewing. Here's one on your topic: Teaching a Dog to Sit Politely Rather Than Jump.

You may or may not know that the brilliant, talented, and caring Dr. Yin recently committed suicide, which I have learned is much more common among those who treat and rescue animals than you might expect. Her staff is maintaining the site so she can continue to help people and their animals.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thank you for the links Marguerite. You are so right about my set ups not going as choreographed. My husband's foreman is unaccustomed to dogs and Buck is relentless with him. That's why I resorted to the long line. He is the only one of my "volunteers" who hasn't rewarded Mr. Adorable with a caress. SO frustrating! I will have to watch the Dr. Yin video on teaching self control, because Buck is overjoyed to greet everyone...I am very grateful that her staff is maintaining her site. Such a sad loss.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Mfmst said:


> Thank you for the links Marguerite. You are so right about my set ups not going as choreographed. My husband's foreman is unaccustomed to dogs and Buck is relentless with him. That's why I resorted to the long line. He is the only one of my "volunteers" who hasn't rewarded Mr. Adorable with a caress. SO frustrating! I will have to watch the Dr. Yin video on teaching self control, because Buck is overjoyed to greet everyone...I am very grateful that her staff is maintaining her site. Such a sad loss.


I feel your pain with the overly friendly dog--you probably have read between the lines that I'm having a very similar problem. As much as I try to use all positive reinforcement methods, I sometimes must resort to "No!" and "Leave it!", which he will actually respond to. (He'll be 3 in February.) 

I very much want to enter UKC's Level 3 rally and earn that title--the gateway to UKC rally championship titles--but level 3 has an honor stay (on leash, next to the handler) in the ring as another dog runs the course. In our area one of the big rally supporters is a very nice woman who runs 3 or 4 Chihuahuas. Her entries really float some of our shows. But I'm so afraid my goofy boy will run up and terrify her little guys that I've been holding off entering him. I'll have to get together with her and see if he can be convinced to ignore them.

Yes, losing Dr. Yin is a great loss. There's so much more she could have shared with us all!

M


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## myuniquepoodle (Sep 22, 2014)

Hi,
My trainer suggested this to me even though I don't have quite the same problem and I have yet to try it but it might just work perfectly for your dog. What you can do it get some fishing line or a clear type of rope line and get something to attach that to. Then put that on his collar along with his normal leash. Take of his normal leash and he will think he is off leash but as soon as he starts doing something you don't want him to do give him a tiny pop with the clear line and he will soon learn that even without a leash on he can still get corrected. Just although. Hope this helps. 

~Natalie and Ginger


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I prefer Dr. Yin's method. That way the dog learns to control _himself_ without force. If you use a line, it's only because of some outside correction, not him choosing to greet nicely. I'm a big proponent of "it's yer choice."


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

In defense of Natalie & Ginger's suggestion to use a second, light line, that's a technique also used by Susan Garrett (the "It's Yer Choice" originator--or at least the one who gave it that name).

It's not her go-to technique, but it is useful, and even a safety-oriented one if working outside where a loose dog can get into trouble very quickly if he makes a bad decision. True, it's not a "purely positive reinforcement" technique, since it is actually positive punishment (adding an event to decrease repetition of a behavior), but not threatening or abusive.

M


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## ROHAN-K9mm (Nov 20, 2011)

He is a baby. You need to wait till he is over the teens before you try off lead in an open place. You will never forgive yourself if he causes an accident or is hurt . A 12 year old human is capable of driving a car perfectly in an empty parking lot, but isnt experienced enough or mature enough to go down the highway, or even in town without the risk of hurting himself or others. Your baby is so smart and quick to learn that he has fooled you into thinking he is all grown up. I asked my breeder this SAME question 25 years ago, and this was pretty much what she told me. [She may have threatened me with bodily harm...] and I did have a 12 year old who practices with the truck in the field, and it was really clear to me what she meant . Please find a safe place where you can let him off lead to play, and practice there, and keep him safe on your walks. [ Tennis courts are wonderful if you are very careful to leave no trace behind ] Good luck


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Give him time. Don't set him up for failure. Set him up to succeed in what you want and reward him then.
Eric.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

ROHAN-K9mm said:


> He is a baby. You need to wait till he is over the teens before you try off lead in an open place. <snip>


I also advise patience. I had dreams of getting attention and precise performance at a year old and that just didn't happen. He's an intact male and, if we continue the comparison to human teens, he was a bit of a high school track star with ADHD.

Now he'll be 3 in February and we have a UKC breed championship and eight performance titles (including a High in Trial in UKC Rally). True, at show-and-goes he's been know to run laps instead of pick up the dumbbell, but gentle insistence on doing his job will get him more or less back on track.

At this point I'm comfortable with short recalls and distance work (drop on recall, signals) when out in the local rec park--but well away from any streets and without human or canine distractions. 

A dog park is a nice place to work off leash, but we don't attend the local dog park for a couple of reasons--the park does not allow intact males for one. The other reason is that I don't know those dogs and wouldn't take it on faith that my show champion wouldn't get an ear torn off or pick up the kennel cough that's going around.


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