# White Standards



## Olie

I am looking around and do not see much out there for white spoos. Any recommendations?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I know absolutely nothing except what I have heard and what I have read here, but Penndragon, Lake Cove, Wintergarden, Seransil, Dawin has a couple of whites...just a few I have seen/heard about. Are you looking for you?? Getting another furkid? Olie, you have been bitten by the bug!!!


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## Olie

Lol, no not at all! 

The bug already BIT me :wacko: and I am good just helping a friend.....Before looking at spoos, all I had ever seen were white and I am curious I just do not see or hear of them.

What about Pinafore? I know it's been mentioned in threads before......


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## jak

Unique look really nice, I have heard all good things about them 
http://uniquestandardpoodles.com/


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## bigredpoodle

I have a friend in Phoenix that is awesome ! She has been breeding forever PM Me for her name she can be located through the Valley of the sun Poodle club..


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## Rockporters

I can't remember if Desert Standard Poodles out of MA & AZ has white or cream pups. You might try a Google search. Tivin is a popular choice around here but again I'm not sure if they breed white.

Sorry, not much help!


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## Olie

http://www.laurisstandardpoodles.com/laurisstandardpoodles.html 

Expensive....and very straight forward.


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## Poodle Lover

The ones that I know of are in California, but here you go:

http://www.penndragonpoodles.com/

http://www.cabernetstandardpoodles.com/

http://www.avionpoodles.com/

Oh, and here's the link for Pinafore:

http://www.pinaforepoodles.com/


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## Olie

Poodle Lover said:


> The ones that I know of are in California, but here you go:
> 
> http://www.penndragonpoodles.com/
> 
> http://www.cabernetstandardpoodles.com/
> 
> http://www.avionpoodles.com/
> 
> Oh, and here's the link for Pinafore:
> 
> http://www.pinaforepoodles.com/


Thanks - and Pinafore is a big pass:scared:


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## Olie

What I am seeing is the white spoos seem to start at $2,000. That is a great deal more than a lot of other spoos....


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## cbrand

I really like Ormar's stud dog Cole:

http://www.ormarpoodles.com/about.htm

They have a litter coming but I'm a little concerned about the dam's sire's line.


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## bigredpoodle

Ya know Olie the strange part about the whole thing is ....... The vet costs keep rising the testing keeps rising and the dog food has not gone down in price . It is so weird you would thing that everything would be shrinking like wages and economy.. But nope keeps going up ! How anyone can afford to sell a pup for cheap makes me go hmmmm.....Where are they cutting corners....


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> I really like Ormar's stud dog Cole:
> 
> http://www.ormarpoodles.com/about.htm
> 
> They have a litter coming but I'm a little concerned about the dam's sire's line.


What are you seeing ?


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## Olie

BRP - I am not going into a price debate. It's not the cost so much as the *difference* in pricing that I am seeing for other color poodles. I am very aware of the economy as well and the owners of pups are also affected by the price increases. I am glad to see that the breeders we have looked at are consistent with their pricing across the board.


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## Olie

cbrand said:


> I really like Ormar's stud dog Cole:
> 
> http://www.ormarpoodles.com/about.htm
> 
> They have a litter coming but I'm a little concerned about the dam's sire's line.


Yeah he is stunning! Lola is too.

I think I see what you are talking about.....I have been doing my homework!


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## Harley_chik

What area are you looking in? Close to home or all over? I have many, many breeders in my favorites folder all over the country and white is my first choice (black is a close second). If your friend is willing to go as far as TX, let me know! (It seems like prices are a bit lower here too.)

Off the top of my head there is:

*Sunflower* and *Truly Southern* in West Texas
*Plantation* in OK 
Dogs from all three kennels can be seen here:http://www.trulysouthernpoodles.net/index.htm

Bar-none and Antigua are near Austin
http://www.bar-nonepoodles.com/html/index2.htm
http://www.antiguashowdogs.com/index.html
*Donnchada*
http://www.donnchadapoodles.com/
There is a kennel called *Mon Ami* in TX w/ beautiful dogs
http://monamipoodles.com/index.html

I think *Unique* is in PA and they had a dog in the bred by competition at Eukanuba that was beautiful.
http://www.uniquestandardpoodles.com/
I really like *Hightide* in FL and "Splash" is gorgeous. (There are more Splash pics on the *Huffish* website, if you're interested.)
http://hightidestandardpoodles.com/id2.html
Of course there is *Lake Cove *in FL too. (It looks like she redid her website too!)
http://www.lakecovefarms.com/home.html

I'm not really vouching for any of them, just giving suggestions. I have talked to Nell Whitehead (Sunflower) and Diana Childs (Plantation). I've seen some of their dogs too. I was impressed w/ both breeders and the dogs.


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## Olie

Harley_chik said:


> What area are you looking in? Close to home or all over? I have many, many breeders in my favorites folder all over the country and white is my first choice (black is a close second). If your friend is willing to go as far as TX, let me know! (It seems like prices are a bit lower here too.)
> 
> Off the top of my head there is:
> 
> *Sunflower* and *Truly Southern* in West Texas
> *Plantation* in OK Dogs from all three kennels can be seen here:http://www.trulysouthernpoodles.net/index.htm
> 
> Bar-none and Antigua are near Austin
> http://www.bar-nonepoodles.com/html/index2.htm
> http://www.antiguashowdogs.com/index.html
> *Donnchada*
> http://www.donnchadapoodles.com/
> There is a kennel called Mon Ami in TX w/ beautiful dogs
> http://monamipoodles.com/index.html
> 
> I think *Unique* is in PA and they had a dog in the bred by competition at Eukanuba that was beautiful.
> http://www.uniquestandardpoodles.com/
> I really like *Hightide* in FL and "Splash" is gorgeous. (There are more Spash pics on the Huffish website, if you're interested.)
> http://hightidestandardpoodles.com/id2.html
> Of course there is *Lake Cove *in FL too. (It looks like she redid her website too!)
> http://www.lakecovefarms.com/home.html
> 
> I'm not really vouching for any of them, just giving suggestions. I have talked to Nell Whitehead (Sunflower) and Diana Childs (Plantation). I've seen some of their dogs too. I was impressed w/ both breeders and the dogs.


She is in PA. We looked at Unique and a few you mentioned. It appears when she does take the plunge she may have to consider flying as an option...Thanks these links should be helpful!


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## Harley_chik

Olie said:


> She is in PA. We looked at Unique and a few you mentioned. It appears when she does take the plunge she may have to consider flying as an option...Thanks these links should be helpful!


I seriously have lots more, lol. I have the serious contenders that I've narrowed down and then every breeder who's dogs I like all over the globe.:bird:


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## bigredpoodle

Olie said:


> BRP - I am not going into a price debate. It's not the cost so much as the *difference* in pricing that I am seeing for other color poodles. I am very aware of the economy as well and the owners of pups are also affected by the price increases. I am glad to see that the breeders we have looked at are consistent with their pricing across the board.


I truly did not think you were it was an observation on my part that the price is where it should be as it is al relevant.. To costs associated.. What always worries me is the cheap ones... They are usually cheap for a reason ..


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## Olie

Understood. Honestly price is fine with me - but please back it up, you know. I find it odd that you can go to reputable breeder of reds or silver and the price might be $1,200 but the same reputable white breeder starts at $2,000 - Anyway - I guess that might be too much of a broad "wonder" and I agree that too low may be concerning....in some cases, but not all.


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## bigredpoodle

I think it depends on what goes into the breeding dogs or program if you will... For me it is all traveling expenses and the like but for others it might be stud fees or ?


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## wishpoo

White spoos are almost exclusively bred for AKC showing (I am talking about top-notch whites) and I would suggest to go with the best that you can since all puppies are cute (that is given LOL), but not all white adults look nice IMO.

Any small fault is very visible on the white spoo and it really sticks more out than on any other color IMO. 

On the other hand - when white is great looking - it is breathtaking !!!!!

So - really - if she wants a white, I would suggest going with the best she can afford !!!


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## KPoos

bigredpoodle said:


> Ya know Olie the strange part about the whole thing is ....... The vet costs keep rising the testing keeps rising and the dog food has not gone down in price . It is so weird you would thing that everything would be shrinking like wages and economy.. But nope keeps going up ! How anyone can afford to sell a pup for cheap makes me go hmmmm.....Where are they cutting corners....


If this is the excuse, stop breeding litters period.


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## Olie

KPoos said:


> If this is the excuse, stop breeding litters period.


You know my first reaction was this, swallow....gulp...... my post was not intended to be a debate but it does make me wonder I cannot help it. :doh: I know for a fact that there are equivalent breeders charging $800 - $1200 difference in price! WHY? And the economy is NOT that much of a factor, luckily I have learned enough from knowledgeable people on this forum to know this. And in order to improve lines and breed, do the breeders not need to consider this as well for the buyers? 

I truly believe in "you get what you pay for", period and I am not afraid personally to spend some money on a great, quality pup it just throws me off when I see this. 
And another thing, and I can appreciate the honest upfront breeders - but if a reputable breeder ends up with Addison's, seizures, or other health issues even with testing and they fix the dogs and continue on with the Dam & Sire dogs - why is it acceptable to continue charging outrageous prices? (maybe I am getting picky now)

I admire those that breed, I really do - or some that do. But I just don't understand all the ins and outs I suppose. Improving the breed is the goal....right?

My dad has a sports car I think it's a 67 or 68 Chevrolet camaro - he races it for kicks. He has about $40,000 wrapped up in this car according to my mom.......they will never see that money but the blood, sweat and tears my dad put into it is pride for him. Ad he done all the work himself. This is a hobby to me.


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## wishpoo

For me the best indicator of the fact that price is subjectively determined is that fact that 2 puppies of the same quality will have different price in different USA states and difference is from 1000 to 1,500 $ more in CA than TX for example :rolffleyes:. 

I guess Orijen costs same in both states LMAO


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## KPoos

Yeah either that or those vets are charging crazy prices for tail docking and dew claw removal because most people do their own shots. Someone told me if you buy a pallet of dog food you can spend $250 and you get a ton of food. That would be for those people that have a large kennel of course.


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> For me the best indicator of the fact that price is subjectively determined is that fact that 2 puppies of the same quality will have different price in different USA states and difference is from 1000 to 1,500 $ more in CA than TX for example :rolffleyes:.
> 
> I guess Orijen costs same in both states LMAO


Yeah I seen that as well.


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## Olie

jak said:


> Unique look really nice, I have heard all good things about them
> http://uniquestandardpoodles.com/


These dogs are gorgeous I might add....her email was very detailed to include being upfront on a couple health issues that popped up in her line. Pups are $1800 and it seems they have GREAT temperaments!! Nice calm not skitzy.


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## Harley_chik

wishpoo said:


> For me the best indicator of the fact that price is subjectively determined is that fact that 2 puppies of the same quality will have different price in different USA states and difference is from 1000 to 1,500 $ more in CA than TX for example :rolffleyes:.
> 
> I guess Orijen costs same in both states LMAO


I will say that the cost of living is much higher in CA than TX. Gas and hotels are more, which drive up showing costs. Some of the vet charges I've heard are outrageous. I've heard of neutering costing as much as $400 on the West Coast. A basic neuter is under $100 here. I would imagine testing is pricier on the West Coast b/c of the vet cost as well. Not saying that makes up for the whole price difference though. I also agree that a lot of white breeders put more effort into their dogs as far as showing goes. There is a lot of quality there and when looking at price, you have to consider more than testing and basic CHs. If the dogs in the pedigree are/were specials, group and BIS winners, then it would make sense that the pups are higher priced. If a particular high profile sire was used, then the price could reflect that too. But yes I disagree w/ charging different prices for pups in the same litter, especially if it's based on color. Then again, it could be that the other colors started out at the same price and had to be reduced? That's the reason Maltese breeders give for charging less for males. According to them, they can charge less from the get go or reduce the price later.


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## wishpoo

Eye Care For Animals, Akron, OH conducts monthly CERF Clinics at our facility. Exams are done by Dr. Mark Bobofchak, DVM, DACVO. Cost is $32 for the 1st dog and $26 for each additional dog. Please call 330-670-1300 for an appointment.
Eye Care for Animals, Upland, CA conducts CERF clinics the last Wednesday of every month between 3-4pm by appointment only. CERF clinic prices are $40.00 for the first dog and each additional is $32.00. Please contact our office for an appointment and more information at 909-949-9200.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK - I had no time - but did just CERF comparative in couple of states and posted just 2 - CERF is ALWAYS between 32 and 40 $$ in allll states . I made a quick check with other tests - same story - OPTI-gen charges same any sample LOL - no matter from where the swab was sent ! So - testing prices have no effect ...

Food costs same .

Lodging - most sleep in their trailers - so no extra cost there.

Entry fee - I will have to check that - but I doubt the huge difference . Any breeder I asked of how much it takes to finish a dog, from CA to CO to TX - the answer was 10,000 $ for a male , can go to 15,000 for a female and that all with professional handler ! 

Vaccination - most do themselves as well as all preventatives. 

Spaying and neutering - buyer pays for that .
Cost of living should not effect a dog's price LMAO - unless we again will have to conclude that breeders make money of puppies and need to cover their living costs


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## KalaMama

wishpoo said:


> Eye Care For Animals, Akron, OH conducts monthly CERF Clinics at our facility. Exams are done by Dr. Mark Bobofchak, DVM, DACVO. Cost is $32 for the 1st dog and $26 for each additional dog. Please call 330-670-1300 for an appointment.
> Eye Care for Animals, Upland, CA conducts CERF clinics the last Wednesday of every month between 3-4pm by appointment only. CERF clinic prices are $40.00 for the first dog and each additional is $32.00. Please contact our office for an appointment and more information at 909-949-9200.
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> OK - I had no time - but did just CERF comparative in couple of states and posted just 2 - CERF is ALWAYS between 32 and 40 $$ in allll states . I made a quick check with other tests - same story - OPTI-gen charges same any sample LOL - no matter from where the swab was sent ! So - testing prices have no effect ...
> 
> Food costs same .
> 
> Lodging - most sleep in their trailers - so no extra cost there.
> 
> Entry fee - I will have to check that - but I doubt the huge difference . Any breeder I asked of how much it takes to finish a dog, from CA to CO to TX - the answer was 10,000 $ for a male , can go to 15,000 for a female and that all with professional handler !
> 
> Vaccination - most do themselves as well as all preventatives.
> 
> Spaying and neutering - buyer pays for that .
> Cost of living should not effect a dog's price LMAO - unless we again will have to conclude that breeders make money of puppies and need to cover their living costs


I see your point. Although some places such as Hawaii rarely if ever have CERF clinics and the only vet charges $200 give or take for a CERF. 

The question I have is why does it matter if one profits off the sell of good quality puppies that follow all of the "rules"(testing, showing, etc)? If they want to ask $4000 per pup then what does it matter? Each buyer has a choice of whether or not to purchase the pup. All across America people breed and sell cattle(profit off of them) and then we eat them. How is a cow so different from a dog? Sure we don't eat dog, but I don't see why it should matter whether or not a breeder makes nothing or $500 off of a pup if they are doing things the "right way".


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## Harley_chik

Eye tests aren't all there is, what about x-rays? I would think that's one of the more costly tests and it has to be done at a vets office. Some breeders may choose to have blood drawn at the vet's office before sending it off too. Depending on the vet they may have to pay an office visit. Of course they could draw blood themselves or find a vet that won't charge as much, but that's their decision. I personally would respect a breeder who did what they felt was best, instead of going the cheapest route possible. There are cheaper puppies of good quality out there, so you don't have to buy from a pricier breeder. If a CA puppy is $2500 and a TX pup is $1500, you can always fly to pick up the pup (or ship) and have money left over. If they can't sell puppies for $2500, they will reduce the price at some point. I think price makes more sense when you stop to consider the fact that you will have the puppy for over 10 years. $250 or less a year doesn't sound bad at all and b/c you are buying from a breeder who health tests, you are significantly reducing the chance of big vet bills too.


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## wishpoo

> The question I have is why does it matter if one profits off the sell of good quality puppies that follow all of the "rules"(testing, showing, etc)? If they want to ask $4000 per pup then what does it matter? Each buyer has a choice of whether or not to purchase the pup. All across America people breed and sell cattle(profit off of them) and then we eat them. How is a cow so different from a dog? Sure we don't eat dog, but I don't see why it should matter whether or not a breeder makes nothing or $500 off of a pup if they are doing things the "right way".


It matters because ethical breeders produce new puppies to improve the breed and not for profit as do BYBs. That would be the basic difference between the two.

Yes, anybody can ask whatever they want for their pups - but only crazy person would pay more for the same quality puppy LOL

Harley - I agree completely with you and that is what I was trying to convey to future buyers. Do your research and find the best price/performance that you can, especially if you are looking for a pet. 

Pet buyer has very little chance of ending up with very high quality puppy anyway - so paying top dollar for a so-so puppy in the TOP line on the one coast when one can get even better quality puppy on the other coast is silly IMO.

If one is looking for specific bloodline for showing or breeding purposes, that is completely another game.


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## Olie

KalaMama said:


> I see your point. Although some places such as Hawaii rarely if ever have CERF clinics and the only vet charges $200 give or take for a CERF.
> 
> The question I have is why does it matter if one profits off the sell of good quality puppies that follow all of the "rules"(testing, showing, etc)? If they want to ask $4000 per pup then what does it matter? Each buyer has a choice of whether or not to purchase the pup. All across America people breed and sell cattle(profit off of them) and then we eat them. How is a cow so different from a dog? Sure we don't eat dog, but I don't see why it should matter whether or not a breeder makes nothing or $500 off of a pup if they are doing things the "right way".


The question started off as to why the difference in price between whites and other colors- in my curiosity because the prices are in some cases extremely different. I think it was a fair question. Again, I am not afraid to spend $2,000, my friend on the other hand may choose not too. If they make money so be it, I have no issue with that - the issue I think that some have a concern with is this, do not make excuses for being $1,000 above market, or or comment on obvious priced things just be honest Asmuch as it is a hobby every breeder intends to cover expenses thats a given.....- at the end of the day there is a market price on everything...........it's just the way it is. Sadly enough this is something that probably upsets breeders more than consumers in some cases, because one breeder charges one price and another breeder charges another LMAO. (I have heard this) It would be nice to see consistency a little bit.


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## Olie

*http://www.ormarpoodles.com/Links.htm*

Has anyone checked these out? Wow their dogs look amazing to me.


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## bigredpoodle

Olie said:


> Has anyone checked these out? Wow their dogs look amazing to me.


OMG They are beautiful Wow .. These folks go the distance for sure ..


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## Olie

I know I started out looking for a friend and now I am finding myself looking at a couple of these breeders thinking hmmm

....but I can't we are a full house but I WILL be keeping a couple of the ones mentioned in this thread in my favorites So thanks for all the help into my informational digging!


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## jak

Olie said:


> Has anyone checked these out? Wow their dogs look amazing to me.


Wow! 
They do look amazing!
Ch. Unique Ormar What a Babe -her maternal grandmother is Saffy's mother
and her father is Donny -RBIS last year at Crufts

I noticed on show news that she is having a litter to Cole "Ch. Allure Ormar No Regrets" once testing is clear and complete
*hint hint*
Definitely something to look into


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## thestars

I like Marquis Standards in Richmond, VA (Use to live close by) and Kathi is very nice and knowledgeable. http://www.marquispoodles.com/


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## jak

thestars said:


> I like Marquis Standards in Richmond, VA (Use to live close by) and Kathi is very nice and knowledgeable. http://www.marquispoodles.com/


They look nice too.
I notice they're having a litter soon with two dogs called:

London and Paris ound: 
..I'm weird


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## wishpoo

Most of her dogs look *really *beautiful !!!

For that price and (you said 1,800 ???) - I would definitely go and check the litter !!!! Your friend is in PA , right ? She can make a trip to Phylli and look at pups - that is HUGE bonus !!!! 

If she does not have to give non-refundable deposit and is promised a "correct" puppy and can refuse pup if she thinks is not up to her expectation than that price is absolutely reasonable IMO

Best of luck and do not forget the contract part ; ) !!!!


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## Olie

jak said:


> Wow!
> They do look amazing!
> Ch. Unique Ormar What a Babe -her maternal grandmother is Saffy's mother
> and her father is Donny -RBIS last year at Crufts
> 
> I noticed on show news that she is having a litter to Cole "Ch. Allure Ormar No Regrets" once testing is clear and complete
> *hint hint*
> Definitely something to look into


Thanks Jak, I seen it as well, and then on the puppies site it says both CERF & Hips clear and fully health tested.


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> Most of her dogs look *really *beautiful !!!
> 
> For that price and (you said 1,800 ???) - I would definitely go and check the litter !!!! Your friend is in PA , right ? She can make a trip to Phylli and look at pups - that is HUGE bonus !!!!
> 
> If she does not have to give non-refundable deposit and is promised a "correct" puppy and can refuse pup if she thinks is not up to her expectation than that price is absolutely reasonable IMO
> 
> Best of luck and do not forget the contract part ; ) !!!!


Are you talking about Unique? Yes they are in PA and you are right if she goes with them it would be a perfect situation.


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## wishpoo

Yes LOL, I am talking about Unique : )) ! 

In general, regardless what site says - ALWAYS ask to SEE results if they are not on the OFA site - I can not tell you how many times they claim that they did it and they did not !!! 

Remember also that hips and cerf have to be done the year of breeding. If hips and eyes were done last time 2007 - it does not count as "current".


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## Poodle Lover

wishpoo;71725
Remember also that hips and cerf have to be done the year of breeding. If hips and eyes were done last time 2007 - it does not count as "current".[/QUOTE said:


> I know that serf has to be done yearly, or the year of the breeding, but had no idea that hips have to be done every time you breed a dog. Is that true? Can breeders chime in???


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## Harley_chik

Poodle Lover said:


> I know that serf has to be done yearly, or the year of the breeding, but had no idea that hips have to be done every time you breed a dog. Is that true? Can breeders chime in???


I'm curious about that too, it seems like a lot of xrays.


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## wishpoo

Actually , now I wonder about hips too - :rolffleyes:. 

Could be that I mixed up something hwell:


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## Cdnjennga

wishpoo said:


> Actually , now I wonder about hips too - :rolffleyes:.
> 
> Could be that I mixed up something hwell:


Yep, hips only need to be done once. CERF should be done yearly (or year of breeding at the least).


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## wishpoo

Yeap - thanks Cdnjenga  !!! I had wrong info :doh:- sorry for confusion !!! Although most breeders x-ray bitches regularly to confirm pregnancy anyway :rolffleyes: 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

II. HIPS

What does the screen consist of:
x-rays/radiographic measurements
usually requires anesthesia, however, some evaluations may not
Screens for:
Canine Hip Dysplasia (CHD)
Degenerative Joint Disease (DJD)
Who takes the x-rays:
your veterinarian
a board certified veterinary specialist: American College of Veterinary Surgeons (DACVS)
Evaluation/Certification:
your veterinarian (evaluation)
a board certified veterinary specialist: American College of Veterinary Surgeons (DACVS) - evaluation only
Orthopedic Foundation For Animals (certification)
PennHIP (evaluation/certification)
Institute for Genetic Disease Control in Animals
Additional genetic disease control registries may be available
Foreign countries may have additional registries
Age:
minimum of 2 years of age for OFA certification
as young as 16 weeks for PennHIP evaluation
age may vary for a veterinary evaluation (this is just an evaluation - not a certification)
Frequency:
generally a one time screen unless a problem is identified and then follow up radiographs may be required


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## PonkiPoodles

I've seen unique's dogs in the show ring... they are to die for! She has taken many wins with both her dogs and their offspring... she shows almost all of them herself - also whisperwind http://www.whisperwindstandardpoodles.com/index.html has very nice dogs, I've seen them personally and have met her... she is a very nice person. If I ever consider a white standard I would not hesitate to call up either of these ladies.


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## wishpoo

Just *gorgeous* dogs in both lines :first: 

I should be very careful of not to show them to my hubby since he is in love with whites and I want a black one LMAO


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## Harley_chik

Olie said:


> Thanks - and Pinafore is a big pass:scared:


Can I ask why?


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## Olie

Unique will have a few pups in the next couple of weeks, they are evaluating the litter now....


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## jak

Olie said:


> Unique will have a few pups in the next couple of weeks, they are evaluating the litter now....


Oooh nice !

Who are the parents do you know?


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## Olie

I do. 

For the one they have now is: Ch. Unique Daughter of the King (Kari) bred to Ch. Nanhall's Casenova DaMaya

Planned for later summer would be: Ch. Unique Simplee Irrestistable. She will be bred to Unique McDreamy


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## jak

Olie said:


> I do.
> 
> For the one they have now is: Ch. Unique Daughter of the King (Kari) bred to Ch. Nanhall's Casenova DaMaya
> 
> Planned for later summer would be: Ch. Unique Simplee Irrestistable. She will be bred to Unique McDreamy


Cool, I've heard nice things about Derek (McDreamy)


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## Olie

Yes the litter now sounds like it was for breeders/co-owners and they will have 3 available after their pics. My friend is really leaning towards these ladies. They are super nice.


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## Olie

What do you think? I like dark pigment but I am not feeling this? Is it shaved too close?


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## wishpoo

I do not like contrast so strong either !!! Even if it was more "uniform" and not "marbled" . I can not stand them "pink" , but I do not like them this way either !!!

Olie - please go an choose one for me LOL :hug:


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> I do not like contrast so strong either !!! Even if it was more "uniform" and not "marbled" . I can not stand them "pink" , but I do not like them this way either !!!
> 
> Olie - please go an choose one for me LOL :hug:


I wish I could!! I would love nothing more than for you to have your spoo baby! I think you should get 2, one black for you and a white for hubby.


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## wishpoo

Aaaawweee Olie :hug::hug::hug: !!!! THANK YOU XOXOXOOOOOOOOO

Ehhhhh..... imagine that !!! One black and one white ...oh myyyy... now THAT is the perfect dream : )))))) !!!!!!!!!!


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## jak

Olie said:


> What do you think? I like dark pigment but I am not feeling this? Is it shaved too close?
> 
> View attachment 7932


I think I have seen that pic somewhere, and the other pics of the dog haven't been as strong looking as this! 
Yes, that is too dark contrasting, but in saying that, I'd have that over pink skin any day!


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## KPoos

I'm thinking that dog is probably heavily sunburned to look like that. The more time they spend in the sun the darker they will get. It's like a human being. If you are born with olive skin tone you are going to tan. If you are born with tan skin you are going to tan very dark in the sun. I think that dog probably started with a darker pigment and then in the sun got almost black.


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## Olie

jak said:


> I think I have seen that pic somewhere, and the other pics of the dog haven't been as strong looking as this!
> Yes, that is too dark contrasting, but in saying that, I'd have that over pink skin any day!


I agree......Olie has very pink pigment. Maybe I need to put him in the sun more!


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## flyingduster

that is a bad pic too though, I bet you if it was a full body pic with background behind him then the whole photo would have stupid contrast settings!!!


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## Olie

flyingduster said:


> that is a bad pic too though, I bet you if it was a full body pic with background behind him then the whole photo would have stupid contrast settings!!!


I dunno....maybe it was off a breeders site. It is very dark.


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## Olie

I think I might want one of these pretty whites someday.


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## jak

Lol, same here


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## Olie

I will likely wait until Nikki moves out (which will be a minute - she has it too good at home) she will be taking the pommies they are her babies. I really like Ormar and Unique Poodles.


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## wishpoo

That "marbled" guy is Keeper, Graphic Ghost, and his skin IS naturally very dark " so called black-skinned white".

I do not like it although he was rated top 20 at some point ...


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## Olie

wishpoo said:


> That "marbled" guy is Keeper, Graphic Ghost, and his skin IS naturally very dark " so called black-skinned white".
> 
> I do not like it although he was rated top 20 at some point ...


I don't either - I read a bit more afterwards and they call it a metalic black - so the color really is much darker from what I read of it.


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## partial2poodles

My silver male came from a line that had a beautiful black skinned white, her name was STORY and she was the original "Oster" dog....the one that had a pair of scissors carved into her side. The judges all commented on her dark shaved face and feet.


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## TangoPoodles

Interesting thread. It's great to read so many different opinions regarding puppy prices, quality, testing ect. 

Here in Ontario generally the whites and blacks are the same price. It's the reds and browns that often have a higher price and I believe that's just due simply to 'suppy and demand'. There are less breeders breeding the reds/browns , at least in our area so there are less puppies available in those colours. So breeders can often charge more for their red/brown pups. 

I would say that the average price for a well bred puppy from health tested parents is anywhere from $1500 to $2000. I currently ask $1500 for my black and my white/cream puppies. A breeder can charge what they want, it's up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to spend. That price will also depend on the market. If there are a lot of breeders with puppies available, you will often see prices comes down. In the past year I have found that puppy sales have slowed down. Probably due to the economy. When there are lots of puppy buyers and not many pups avaiable, the prices usually go up. This is a trend that I have seen for several years now. 

I charge the same price for my companion puppies and show puppies. At 8 weeks of age, a breeder can have a good idea of what a puppies potential is BUT so many things can change so I just don't see charging more for a 'show' potential puppy when sold at 8 weeks of age because as it matures , it may not develop as the breeder hopes and may end up not being show quality after all. Now, if a puppy is sold as show potential at an older age , then there is a better chance that the puppies show potential is quite apparent at that time and then possibly in that case could demand a higher price. 

Keep in mind that the same thought, planning, expense and hard work have gone into breeding, whelping and raising every single puppy in a litter. Whether that puppy turns out to be destined for a companion home or a show home, makes no difference. Many times, in a well bred litter, the quality is very consistent and the average person would not be able to tell the difference between a 'pet' puppy and a show puppy. Often times it comes down to personality and attitude , conformationally they could be very similar but one is more 'cocky' then they other. Attitude is very important in a show puppy and without it, it can be hard to show and finish a dog. Many people wrongly assume that there is a huge difference between 1st pick in a litter and 2nd, 3rd....last pick etc. This is most often not the case. Also, many times, because good show homes are far and few between, a really nice show potential puppy will end up in a loving companion home and will never see the inside of a show ring. For all these reasons and more, I just can't justify asking more for one puppy in a litter then another. 

Sometimes in the case of show puppies, they may cost the same as a pet puppy but will have some conditions attached. Possibly a co-ownership until the puppy attains it's championship. Or some other terms that will apply. 

There is a lot of cost involved in house, vetting, showing, testing, feeding, training the dogs that are used in a breeding program. Then you have stud fees, travel expenses, breeding fees (AI's, progesterone testing etc etc). It adds up fast! At $1500 to $2000 per puppy, the average breeder is lucky if they break even. You have to also remember that there will also be times when you incur all that expense and the breeding is not successful so no puppies! You may get a repeat breeding to the stud dog but you are still out all the travel expenses (often including but not limited to flying your bitch to the stud dog and back) , vet costs (AI's, sugical implants, shipping of semen, progesterone tesing etc. etc.). None of these costs are 'refunded' to you should a breeding not be successful. Breeding quality dogs is a very expensive undertaking! 

Testing usually includes hips (done once and don't have to be repeated), eyes (usually done yearly), SA biopsies (usually done every 2 years), Vwd (unless clear by parentage), NE (unless clear by Parentage) . So these are more costs of breeding that must be taken into consideration. 

I honestly don't believe that just because a dog or bitch has had some big show wins, that there puppies demand a much higher price. My Liza was a multi BIS winners, won BISS at our Canadian National and won an AOM at PCA but I asked the same for her puppies as I did for any of my other pups from different mothers. There are lots of wonderful dogs and bitches out there that don't have any prestigious show wins but that does not make them any less quality than the ones that did. Showing dogs at that level is a very expensive undertaking and most of us can't afford to compete at that level. That does not mean that our dogs are not worthy of such wins, just that we don't have $50,000 or more to heavily campaigne our dogs to that level of success. These individuals can still produce lovely puppies that can go on to do well in companion homes and show homes. So I do not believe that show wins alone should dictate the value of a specific dog/bitch or their puppies. 

The real test of a dog/bitches quality and success is not so much what they achieve in the show ring, but rather what they achieve in their breeding careers and in the whelping box!!! At least that is my own personal opinion. 

Lisa


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## passion4poodles

Old post I knwo but just got around to reading it. I would like to add that Lisa is correct the vWD and NE CAN be cleared by parentage, but if you find a breeder that claims that make sure they have to OFFICIAL documentation from OFA. OFA will provide certificates for CBP puppies ONLY if DNA samples have been received to PROVE the paternity of the pup. Dam and Sire have to have DNA samples ON FILE and a DNA sample of the pup in question HAS to be send in to prove the pup did actually come from THOSE parents. It is a process, a breeder can say all they want they are cleared by CBP but without OFA documentation backing them, how do you really know its true. Just some added info.


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## jonny cash

TangoPoodles said:


> Interesting thread. It's great to read so many different opinions regarding puppy prices, quality, testing ect.
> 
> Here in Ontario generally the whites and blacks are the same price. It's the reds and browns that often have a higher price and I believe that's just due simply to 'suppy and demand'. There are less breeders breeding the reds/browns , at least in our area so there are less puppies available in those colours. So breeders can often charge more for their red/brown pups.
> 
> I would say that the average price for a well bred puppy from health tested parents is anywhere from $1500 to $2000. I currently ask $1500 for my black and my white/cream puppies. A breeder can charge what they want, it's up to the buyer to decide what they are willing to spend. That price will also depend on the market. If there are a lot of breeders with puppies available, you will often see prices comes down. In the past year I have found that puppy sales have slowed down. Probably due to the economy. When there are lots of puppy buyers and not many pups avaiable, the prices usually go up. This is a trend that I have seen for several years now.
> 
> I charge the same price for my companion puppies and show puppies. At 8 weeks of age, a breeder can have a good idea of what a puppies potential is BUT so many things can change so I just don't see charging more for a 'show' potential puppy when sold at 8 weeks of age because as it matures , it may not develop as the breeder hopes and may end up not being show quality after all. Now, if a puppy is sold as show potential at an older age , then there is a better chance that the puppies show potential is quite apparent at that time and then possibly in that case could demand a higher price.
> 
> Keep in mind that the same thought, planning, expense and hard work have gone into breeding, whelping and raising every single puppy in a litter. Whether that puppy turns out to be destined for a companion home or a show home, makes no difference. Many times, in a well bred litter, the quality is very consistent and the average person would not be able to tell the difference between a 'pet' puppy and a show puppy. Often times it comes down to personality and attitude , conformationally they could be very similar but one is more 'cocky' then they other. Attitude is very important in a show puppy and without it, it can be hard to show and finish a dog. Many people wrongly assume that there is a huge difference between 1st pick in a litter and 2nd, 3rd....last pick etc. This is most often not the case. Also, many times, because good show homes are far and few between, a really nice show potential puppy will end up in a loving companion home and will never see the inside of a show ring. For all these reasons and more, I just can't justify asking more for one puppy in a litter then another.
> 
> Sometimes in the case of show puppies, they may cost the same as a pet puppy but will have some conditions attached. Possibly a co-ownership until the puppy attains it's championship. Or some other terms that will apply.
> 
> There is a lot of cost involved in house, vetting, showing, testing, feeding, training the dogs that are used in a breeding program. Then you have stud fees, travel expenses, breeding fees (AI's, progesterone testing etc etc). It adds up fast! At $1500 to $2000 per puppy, the average breeder is lucky if they break even. You have to also remember that there will also be times when you incur all that expense and the breeding is not successful so no puppies! You may get a repeat breeding to the stud dog but you are still out all the travel expenses (often including but not limited to flying your bitch to the stud dog and back) , vet costs (AI's, sugical implants, shipping of semen, progesterone tesing etc. etc.). None of these costs are 'refunded' to you should a breeding not be successful. Breeding quality dogs is a very expensive undertaking!
> 
> Testing usually includes hips (done once and don't have to be repeated), eyes (usually done yearly), SA biopsies (usually done every 2 years), Vwd (unless clear by parentage), NE (unless clear by Parentage) . So these are more costs of breeding that must be taken into consideration.
> 
> I honestly don't believe that just because a dog or bitch has had some big show wins, that there puppies demand a much higher price. My Liza was a multi BIS winners, won BISS at our Canadian National and won an AOM at PCA but I asked the same for her puppies as I did for any of my other pups from different mothers. There are lots of wonderful dogs and bitches out there that don't have any prestigious show wins but that does not make them any less quality than the ones that did. Showing dogs at that level is a very expensive undertaking and most of us can't afford to compete at that level. That does not mean that our dogs are not worthy of such wins, just that we don't have $50,000 or more to heavily campaigne our dogs to that level of success. These individuals can still produce lovely puppies that can go on to do well in companion homes and show homes. So I do not believe that show wins alone should dictate the value of a specific dog/bitch or their puppies.
> 
> The real test of a dog/bitches quality and success is not so much what they achieve in the show ring, but rather what they achieve in their breeding careers and in the whelping box!!! At least that is my own personal opinion.
> 
> Lisa


very well said!!!! the best way to make a small fortune breeding poodles, is to start with a large fortune!!


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## mightykale

Regarding the skin color for Ch Graphic Ghost, "Keeper". I had a full litter brother to him and we saw Keeper quite a bit over the years. This picture makes his skin look much darker than it was when you met him in person. His skin was a beautiful silver color that was very striking with his ice white coat.

If I was going to buy a white, I'd buy from Rick and Kim Bates again. They've always been great about staying in touch over the years and probably some of the nicest people you could ever meet. Kim Russel is also a great handler who taught me alot years ago when I got started. 

Rick and Kim's special, Micah, is something to experience. Pictures don't do him justice - he's a beautiful dog with the happiest personality.


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## wishpoo

I have to agree  

I exchanged couple of e-mails with Mrs. Bates and she was extremely friendly, honest , professional and willing to educate !!!!!!

All of her dogs are to die-for and Casper is my all time favorite :first: !!!!!!!


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## Purley

Here is one advertised - I hope she finds a good home. I was tempted but a Standard is too big for me.

I'm a Beautiful Showdog Who's Too Shy To Show East Regina, Regina


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## TangoPoodles

Thank you Purley for posting that link. Out of curiosity I clicked on it and low and behold I see that they have stolen a photo of one of my bitches from my website! They may have a bitch to sell BUT the one in the photo is my bitch Bella (Ch. Tango Bella Of The Ball) and does not belong to these people. I have called up the number listed on the ad and have told them to take that photo down. 

I can't believe the nerve of some people to use someone else's photographs and pass them off as their own! 

Not only could I take action against them for using one of my photographs without permission, but they could also be charged with false advertising because the bitch in the photo is NOT the bitch that they are offering for sale!

I would be very leery about buying a dog from someone who obviously is very dishonest and would do something like this.


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## Poodle Lover

I also followed the link and couldn't believe that a nice looking dog like this would have to be advertised. No reputable breeder that I know ever puts an ad in the paper. This girl would have gone quickly via word of mouth. 

Tnago Poodles - a good way to protect the pictures on your website is to have watermarks put on them.


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## Olie

Purley said:


> Here is one advertised - I hope she finds a good home. I was tempted but a Standard is too big for me.
> 
> I'm a Beautiful Showdog Who's Too Shy To Show East Regina, Regina


Thats a heafty price IMO- maybe they would lower it once they found the right owner. Sure is pretty though.

ETA - just seen Tangos post WOW I would be on their tails! I too wondered why a dog like BELLA would have to be advertised like this. CRAZY!!!!


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## cbrand

This same picture nonsense must happen more than we think. I remember when I first joined this board last year someone posted pictures of their Poodle's dam and sire. The Poodle had come from a rather dodgy breeder, but the photo of the dam was of a very high quality Specials bitch in full, big hair. Turns out that the picture is of a completely unrelated dog that the breeder just swiped off the Internet.

Yikes!


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## wishpoo

Wellllll.... I have seen reputable breeders sometimes putting a puppy or a dog in "advertisement" and I do not see anything wrong with it, to be honest.

If a dog is sold as a pet, no matter how pretty - it is a pet and as an adult will need some time to find a perfect home. If "show female" was available of exquisite quality with full registration, of course than it would be done by "private treaty" most likely. 

That on the side , this person is not only dishonest but stupid LMAO (yes , I said IT *GASP ). Living in Canada and taking a photo from a well known Canadian breeder is *really * stupid LMAO

Yes - photos can now have copy-right on as well as a wet-seal - I am seeing that now very often on breeder's sites !!! I would definitively be doing that if I was a breeder !


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## Rockporters

Always, always, watermark your photos. For something like this I'd even place it lightly across the dog itself. I've had photos stolen before. Disney shots, dog shots, etc... These days I don't post anything to the internet without my copyright line on it somewhere. On most shots I do place it at the bottom, but I've been known to place it right across the middle on certain shots. 

Unfortunate but there is little respect for photo ownership on the internet.


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## Olie

The picture was taken off.


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