# Petco finally stops selling shock collars to the average consumer



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hope those were responses to consumer pressure. It restores my faith the the power of "every (wo)man." I do have pinch collars and remote collars that I use with a tone for a distance based positive reinforcer, but I certainly would not expect to see them in the general stock of a big box store where they were sold with no education in their use. I generally only rarely recommend either of those tools to people I do not know very well and with whom I would not have the chance to teach their proper uses (along with how to fade the need for them).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Excellent news!!! I'm going to move this over to General Training & Obedience for maximum eyeballs.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> I hope those were responses to consumer pressure. It restores my faith the the power of "every (wo)man." I do have pinch collars and remote collars that I use with a tone for a distance based positive reinforcer, but I certainly would not expect to see them in the general stock of a big box store where they were sold with no education in their use. I generally only rarely recommend either of those tools to people I do not know very well and with whom I would not have the chance to teach their proper uses (along with how to fade the need for them).


I really think they were. They even have their own petition to sign against the selling of shock collars, so it sounds like they’re listening. Petco’s really been pushing their “positive reinforcement training“ programs, so this felt like a natural next step. I know I’ve probably said this to death, but shock collars should be relegated like prescriptions, so I‘m very pleased that it’s going to be that much harder for people who don’t know what they’re doing to get pressured into buying one (Or deciding to buy one on their own).


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I was so happy to hear this!!!!! I signed the petition.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Well I'm actually not sure how I feel about this. I think people should have a right to purchase what product / training tool they wish. However I do feel they need to be used properly. Most "shock" collars today don't even shock they tend to give off different levels of vibration. Many people who hunt with dogs use this for getting their dogs attention. Once attention is back on the owner they dog follows commands. I have a relative who raises cows and goats. His dog learned to look at him while 100 yards away by the use of the vibration collar, then later learned by whistles and hand signals. There are times when the dog is too far away and at those times he uses the tool. Makes me kinda feel that petco thinks everyone is a moron, though there probably are quite a few out there. Hense my being on the fence.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mufar I make no secret that I have and sometimes use e-collars in the way you describe on actually a tone mode to give information at distance. I agree that tools should be available, but think that they don't need to be on the shelf in a big box style store. There are plenty of places where you can get the tools you need if you scratch around a bit online. This at least puts a little time and thought into being annoyed with your dog and ten minutes later having a tool that you don't know how to use and that you can use to damage your dog even more than you already have in a way that is sure to turn annoyance into anger. If there was a tool I could wish would disappear from open store shelves it would be unlimited slip chain collars (choke chains) where the hazard is obvious in the name choke chain. As I recall Petco already had not been selling pinch collars.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Mufar I make no secret that I have and sometimes use e-collars in the way you describe on actually a tone mode to give information at distance. I agree that tools should be available, but think that they don't need to be on the shelf in a big box style store. There are plenty of places where you can get the tools you need if you scratch around a bit online. This at least puts a little time and thought into being annoyed with your dog and ten minutes later having a tool that you don't know how to use and that you can use to damage your dog even more than you already have in a way that is sure to turn annoyance into anger. If there was a tool I could wish would disappear from open store shelves it would be unlimited slip chain collars (choke chains) where the hazard is obvious in the name choke chain. As I recall Petco already had not been selling pinch collars.


Catherine, Well I can agree to disagree. I don't see a whole lot of difference between a big box store selling them or whether you order one from a supplier. I really give JPQ little more credit at being smart enough to investigate into the learning curve. I don't think I've ever gotten "mad" at my dog and run to a store to see what I can buy to immediately correct them by hurting them to make them listen. Sure there will always be jerks in the world but that will never change.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

We are not the general dog owning public. I have seen people get mad at their dogs well more than once and if they had cruel tools available their attitiudes suggested they would use them in that emotional state. And yes sadly people are who people are. I understand your POV completely.


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## Marvelous_Mila (Oct 7, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Mufar I make no secret that I have and sometimes use e-collars in the way you describe on actually a tone mode to give information at distance. I agree that tools should be available, but think that they don't need to be on the shelf in a big box style store. There are plenty of places where you can get the tools you need if you scratch around a bit online. This at least puts a little time and thought into being annoyed with your dog and ten minutes later having a tool that you don't know how to use and that you can use to damage your dog even more than you already have in a way that is sure to turn annoyance into anger. If there was a tool I could wish would disappear from open store shelves it would be unlimited slip chain collars (choke chains) where the hazard is obvious in the name choke chain. As I recall Petco already had not been selling pinch collars.


Would you be able to PM me regarding the pinch collar usage? I’m having this recommended to me, by several trainers, and have purchased two variations, but I’m terrified to use them (Possibly incorrectly) and cause exactly the issues you describe. The trainers did not have poodle experience— which maybe does not matter? But we had a terrible early experience with following advice from those familiar with a particular breed. 

My girl is stubborn about her walks, but such a sensitive personality. I over corrected her baby shark teeth when she first came, which was the first, last, and only time she has growled/shown teeth. Poodles aren’t german shepherds (the Monks of New Skete book I read said ‘alpha roll’). It was such a mistake which I regretted immediately — lots of great information in that book, but not that part - at least not for my dog. 

Thank you for any advice you can offer!


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

With a pinch collar YOU don't use it. The dog uses it. You just put it on the dog and attach a leash. If the dog pulls the dog corrects herself. The dog determines how hard and how long of a correction she receives before deciding that it is much more comfortable to release pressure and walk on a loose leash. YOU are not doing anything except holding onto the leash.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I have mixed feelings on using shock collars. I know someone who broke her dog of the habit of chasing cars by using one. She recruited a couple of friends to drive past and let the dog run after the cars. Then, when the dog had almost caught up, she shocked it. After a few times the dog decided that getting close to cars was a bad idea. This was a life threatening habit for the dog. Car chasing was a life threatening habit for the dog. Therefore, I'm ok with the shock collar being used exactly as it was used.

However, I've seen more situations where it was used badly.. I've seen two people who should have known better accidentally shock their dogs by putting the controller in their pocket. One, additionally, had a controller with multiple collars. So, while Pugsley was in the middle of chasing the neighbor's cat, you needed to remember which dial click was Pugsley's, change it over, and then zap Pugsley. Needless to say, sometimes the wrong dog got shocked, and sometimes the cat had already found safety under the deck by the time Pugsley got shocked for chasing it.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I've never seen anyone in public using a shock collar appropriately. Seen MANY people using them inappropriately or carelessly. I frankly think if you can't teach a reliable sit or stay, you shouldn't have access to a shock collar. Although I do think they are useful for things like cowpony mentioned - I don't think most people should have one. 

Glad to hear this news.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I frankly think if you can't teach a reliable sit or stay, you shouldn't have access to a shock collar


Shock collars are not for TEACHING anything. They are for proofing behaviors the dog already knows when you are unable to enforce a command because the dog is too far away. The dog HAS to know what to do in order to avoid the shock. I use it exclusively for "come" when we are out hiking and for barking in the yard; and barking only because Zephyr decided that if he kept running away from me he could keep barking and there was nothing I could do about it. He was wrong! He has not worn the collar at all for years.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

reraven123 said:


> Shock collars are not for TEACHING anything. They are for proofing behaviors the dog already knows when you are unable to enforce a command because the dog is too far away. The dog HAS to know what to do in order to avoid the shock. I use it exclusively for "come" when we are out hiking and for barking in the yard; and barking only because Zephyr decided that if he kept running away from me he could keep barking and there was nothing I could do about it. He was wrong! He has not worn the collar at all for years.


Reraven - I agree! Although I do believe in using them for situations like car chasing, and "God gotcha" types of learning situations, where knowing the human was involved isn't useful. But I see a lot of people using them who can't teach a dog very simple things like sit or stay, and then using them to try and teach the dog new behaviours, and have seen dogs ruined. I think you should be able to demonstrate a certain degree of competence in dog training before you can be able to use one, not that they should be banned outright.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I absolutely agree with you, and have seen lots of bad things as well, which make me both angry and heartbroken.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Even Ian Dunbar would use a shock collar if it was a tool that could save a dog's life (like car chasing). He also talked to me once about situations where you would use it to help a predatory prone dog to stop stalking and killing livestock.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

There's a Dr. Dunbar quote that comes up often in online discussions of shock collars:

“_To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:_

_A thorough understanding of canine behavior._
_A thorough understanding of learning theory._
_Impeccable timing._
_And if you have those three things, you don’t need a shock collar.”_

Lily cd re, your personal experience with him makes me wonder if these are even his words, or if the attribution is just a classic example of internet broken telephone.

Either way, humans aren't generally great at understanding nuance when learning at the novice level (which is where the vast majority of us are when it comes to dog training). We want black or white, all or nothing.

In our classes, we've encountered more than one dog owner who believes he knows better than our trainer. Try telling someone like _that_ that certain tools should be left to the pros! Oh the bluster that would ensue....

So I understand why some professionals might prefer to tell _most_ people that physical corrections/aversives are off limits while quietly employing them themselves in appropriate life-or-death scenarios.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hope this link works. Here's Ian Dunbar on his Facebook page, sharing his thoughts on this subject:



https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10164232971275117&id=104769405116



As expected, his stance is far too nuanced for some of his followers, and they're now shrieking in the comments about how he is "for" shock collars.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Based on having been to a number of seminars and workshops with the good Dr. Dunbar that actually is exactly what i would have expected him to say on this subject. This really aligns with LIMA principles. You start with the very most minimal corrections and step things up carefully and slowly with fairness until you reach the least intrusive and minimally aversive tool that works. Most people should never need an e collar, but if that is what is needed to keep alive a dog that chases cars or preys on a neighbor's livestock then that is LIMA for that dog. Hopefully by the time that point is approaching the owner/trainer has a qualified person helping them to properly introduce the tool and to use it with the correct timing to give the correct lesson.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I like that he says "Frequent or continued shocks would, of course, be proof of ineffectiveness. It ain't working!"

This, I think, is what so many people get wrong.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well of course frequent or continued use of almost any tool or technique would be proof of ineffectiveness right? That or a clueless handler who doesn't have decent timing or understand the tool or technique or know how to read the dog. There are times I work on something with Javelin and our trainer and I think I understand what she has told me to do and then either I go too far too fast or leave something out and end up with a confused dog staring at me like he is trying to say "well just speak dog language please so I could have a clue about what you want me to do please! Stoopid hooman..."


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Very true. But it made me think of the owners I've encountered who knee their dogs for jumping, or give their ear a hard pinch. If that was an effective deterrent, it would work immediately. (Like how Peggy no longer noses my coffee, after making contact once with a steaming hot mug.) Instead I see their dogs jumping harder and faster, doing "sneak attacks" and launching themselves at innocent bystanders, while the kneeing and pinching gets increasingly—ineffectively—forceful.

I hate to remember this, because it still feels so dang mean, but there was that time that Peggy kept bonking her nose into my nose? I posted here about it, exasperated and in serious pain. My nose was red and so stinkin' tender. And the next time she did it, without even thinking, I _flung_ my fist up to block my face....and she basically punched herself in the nose. That was probably six months ago. Maybe longer? And I can recall only a single time she's really done it since, and it was with half the power and she immediately caught herself.

You could say that was an effective aversive, right? It worked immediately.

At the other end of the spectrum, I can think of lots of examples of redirection and positive reinforcement that take time, patience, and consistency, but when they work they WORK. Like when a puppy _finally_ grabs a toy to occupy their excited mouth rather than chomping on you. It's thrilling watching them make that choice.

Another example, which I'm seeing more and more every day, is Peggy's attention coming back to me when she sees something exciting. This is due to months and month (and monnnnths! lol) of patiently rewarding her for "look at that." We really had to have faith in the method. The temptation to fruitlessly yank the leash and shout in frustration was always lurking in the background. 

And I think that's a lot like how the average person uses shock collars: It's the electric version of a yank and shout.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That was a good aversive when she jumped up like that! Since it worked so effectively I would just put it on your brain's back shelf. As to getting and keeping Peggy's focused attention you can use LAT, but I would probably start with some more active ways to engage her attention, sort of a backchain since the end of LAT should be the dog actively checking in with you. You can teach a heads up attention with treats as the end behavior and then introduce looking at exciting things with the attention brought quickly back to you. Since you would teach the attention to you as the end of a behavior chain and attention given quickly is well rewarded/acknowledged the LAT will be picked up faster under the terms of Premack principle training by using a well trained and liked behavior as a consequence of a less liked or at least less well trained behavior of LAT (looking and then collecting to handler).

Most average dog owners don't really understand dog training very well, but of course poodle owners are very above average dog owners!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Ohhh how I'd love to have a class with you!

I suspect poodles are too smart for most of us. Too smart for me, for sure. I spend a lot of time undoing my inadvertent teachings.

Our trainer loves to ask me: WHY are you doing that? Not in a rhetorical way. She is genuinely challenging me to explain. And generally in the process of explaining, I see the error of my ways.

Like when I obliviously taught Peggy to jump up and _then_ sit when greeting people, rather than going straight to the sit. D'oh.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

And I would love to have you in a class. I also spend time asking my students why they did things, most especially as concerns mindless dishing of treats. When you pay a dog they have to know what they are being paid for. Remember the ABCs of operant conditioning everyone. Antecedent (give order), Behavior (dog does what you asked and promptly), Consequence (give treat or your positive marker word within 3 seconds or they won't know why they got paid).


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Yay!! I use a E-collar but I learned how to use it from a trainer, and I wouldn't use the horrible brands petco comes up with anyways... I use the Mini educator for proofing recall with my stubborn English Labrador  sometimes he gets to tracking a bird and won't even consider coming back. Its not lack of training on my end, I don't think anybody could stop my dog from genetically doing what he wants to do Lol, the e-collar just helps him remember that I exist

Makes me horrified to think of a poor dog being shocked like SHOCKED SHOCKED, not a low stem shock e-collars are meant to give, especially coming from somebody who doesn't know how to use one and is probably rather reckless


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## 1fast8 (May 16, 2020)

I don’t think I could ever shock my baby girl because I had a bad experience with electricity. I had a sleeper camper that the insulation had worn into so when I stepped out one morning barefoot I could not let go of the door my body ached for days but I did notice my subconscious would make sure that I release the handle before my foot touched the ground never had to think about it. I pretty sure if the dog knows why the shock it will stop.I just don’t think I could use it on my girl


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