# Altercation at the dog park.



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

So I totally went off on a guy at the dog park today. He has been going for awhile and I have had a few words with him before, but today I just had it. He insists on bringing his aggressive GSD puppies to the dog park, but doesn't like to take them in the large dog area where they belong because guess what, they get in fights! So he takes them to the small dog area where there is never other dogs. Well when I pulled up today I saw him with his family taking his aggressive dogs into the small dog park. I had just got there and wasn't about to let him rain on our parade so I walked in picked my dogs up, walked over to the shade and waited patiently for his dogs to have their fun. When we walked in he immediately put his female on the leash (because she is the most aggressive and he knows it). About a minute later he looks at me and says "you know there are small dogs over there (pointing to the large dog park) you can go over there." I nodded and said "yes but there are also large dogs over there, because it's the large dog area." He said "well you should go over there we were here first." At that point I lost all self control I had mustered up at that point and said a bit loudly "well maybe you should go over there were you belong. I am the one where I should be you are the one that's not!" Long story short the argument goes on he says things I say things and in the end I call Animal Control. I knew they weren't going to be open but he didn't. So as I sit on hold with AC I strike up a fake conversation and ask an officer to be sent out because an owner has aggressive large dogs in the small dog area and refuses to leave. During this time his wife try's to talk him into leaving and he starts saying "No, she acts like she owns this place let AC come I will talk to them! (Total bluff). I end my fake conversation with a "thank you very much see you soon.", then tell him "good because an officer is on the way right now." He holds his ground for a couple minutes then ever so slowly starts to inch closer to the gate with his family. The entire time muttering insults under his breath loud enough for me to hear and talking to the people in the large dog park (who by the way we're trying to talk him into going over there). Then his wife leashes up the male dog and they walk slightly quicker but still slowly to the gate, sit there for a bit lift the latch and leave as slowly as possible. Once I see them open the gate I just start laughing my butt off. They knew they were doing the wrong thing and weren't going to get their way. I didn't even have to mention the fact their dogs A) weren't licensed and B) weren't altered which are both against the rules as well. Might I point out that I went into this situation ready to just wait my turn and didn't say one thing until he got all pissy and told me that I should leave. Some people just really piss me off sometimes and even though I am not a confrontational person I could not just hold my tongue. He tried to out stubborn a very stubborn person and lost. 

What would you have done if you were in this situation? Have you ever been in a similar situation?


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> What would you have done if you were in this situation? Have you ever been in a similar situation?


What would I have done? The same as you PC. Gentle but firm.


----------



## Zhuhaibill (Jul 10, 2015)

Heh, that's well done as far as I'm concerned. Faced with the same situation I might not have been as cool and collected as you and may have thought of my clever retorts only way after the incident. Anyway, nothing irks me more than selfish people who think they are SPECIAL so I am glad to hear that the jerk got his come uppance. I bet your pooches were wondering what was going on....


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

What would I have done? Like you did, but the New York version, which is louder, in his face, and would probably include a few descriptions of my assessment of his character flaws


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

YOU WERE PERFECT!!!!!! Have never been in your situation as we don't do dog parks because of the pit population ................but in being vocal about 'what is right' this is me:


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

What a jerk that GSD owner is! Very creative bluff. Love it. I can't stand people who think rules don't apply to them, especially when those rules have to do with safety.


----------



## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Just curious...how old and big are these puppies? And is there a posted weight limit for the small dog area?


----------



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

you were totally in the right and kudos to you for standing up to him! 
hopefully that'll be the end of that.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

tiny poodles said:


> what would i have done? Like you did, but the new york version, which is louder, in his face, and would probably include a few descriptions of my assessment of his character flaws



ditto!!!!!!!!!!

Your fake conversation was very clever!


----------



## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

I thought you were being nice....LOL!

Honestly, I would have done the same thing as you. He probably prefers the little dog side because then his "puppies" won't get hurt....just the other little dogs...

In the "big dog side" his dogs would get a come-uppance from not only the other dogs, but the people over there.

I'm glad you stood your ground. Kudos to you!


----------



## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

This is the exact reason I prefer dogs over people. They have more common courtesy. I commend you. I think you acted very appropriate in the situation. Unfortunately, I am not as calm in conflicts that deal with my pets and it gets really ugly. So...good for you for keeping your calm, but standing your ground.:cheers2:


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

dogs123 said:


> I thought you were being nice....LOL!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yup, I have come up against that kind of thinking more than once, and had to "enlighten" them! 
Geez, I would rather see a 60 pound mature adult dog than a 60 pound crazy puppy on the small dog side!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Contrary to what _some_ people think about me on this forum, people who think they know who I am... when I'm assertive or protective about the one of the very few things I'm super adamant and passionate about...what I consider harshness to dogs or mistreatment, I would have likely said _"hi, actually...this area is for small breed dogs." _And if he balked or was rude, I would have shrugged my shoulders, walked away disappointed to my car and found another place to take a walk. (I'm very uncomfortable and inept with confrontations...would rather keep the peace in _most_ all situations) Then later, I'd have called the proper authorities and complained about what happened. :dontknow:


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Contrary to what _some_ people think about me on this forum, people who think they know who I am... when I'm assertive or protective about the one of the very few things I'm super adamant and passionate about...what I consider harshness to dogs or mistreatment, I would have likely said _"hi, actually...this area is for small breed dogs." _And if he balked or was rude, I would have shrugged my shoulders, walked away disappointed to my car and found another place to take a walk. (I'm very uncomfortable and inept with confrontations...would rather keep the peace in _most_ all situations) Then later, I'd have called the proper authorities and complained about what happened. :dontknow:


Yup. That's what I would have done. I have no desire to get into arguments with people who own aggressive dogs and who have already shown themselves to be selfish and arrogant. But hats off to PoodleCrazy for standing her ground. The behavior of the GSD owner was really outrageous.


----------



## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

PB - you should not care about what "some" people think. You are entitled to your opinions and I am glad you are passionate about cruelty to animals. Hugs


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh Beaches, I couldn't care less what anyone thinks of me except for those I like. I live by the mantra, _"Those who mind don't matter. Those who matter don't mind."_ I would have disliked intensely getting entangled with an aggressive jerk with two GSDs. Call me a chicken. LOL. 

Thank you. Very sweet.

Peppersb....I so agree with you in that you say "hats off to Poodle crazy." I think that was outrageous behavior from that guy and I do think you, Poodlecrazy are absolutely within your rights to object the way you did. His wife was probably cringing the whole time and may have given him what for at home. lol. (Or not given him anything. hahaha)


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Here is a short video I took and then Killa getting to play afterwards. The puppies are 6 months old and probably nearing the 50 lbs range. I'm glad they got to have their fun. Here there are no "authorities", people could care less about what goes on at the dog park, it's a use at your own risk type thing. Im going to make some calls today and find out if there is someone to call when something happens at the dog park. Like I said I have seen this guy before and have had a few choice words with him. The last time he was over in the large dog area and his female was getting it a fight with a larger dog and she was loosing. He did nothing just let the dog beat up on her and her lash out and bite the other dog. When I said something like you really should take her out he said no it's good for her, I want her to be protective. So then he proceeded to leash her up and let the other dog go at her and her at him, only in a controlled way so she couldn't hurt the other dog. 

Poodlebeguiled, I had no issue with him taking his turn at the park. I was ready to wait my turn patiently. It was when he got angry at me and told me I should leave when I got pissed. He started the whole thing not me. Ok I take that back, maybe my RBF had a bit to do with it. But that is all natural I can't help it ?.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

http://youtu.be/ighNSD30wr0


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Contrary to what _some_ people think about me on this forum, people who think they know who I am... when I'm assertive or protective about the one of the very few things I'm super adamant and passionate about...what I consider harshness to dogs or mistreatment, I would have likely said _"hi, actually...this area is for small breed dogs." _And if he balked or was rude, I would have shrugged my shoulders, walked away disappointed to my car and found another place to take a walk. (I'm very uncomfortable and inept with confrontations...would rather keep the peace in _most_ all situations) Then later, I'd have called the proper authorities and complained about what happened. :dontknow:



That doesn't surprise me at all.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Here is a short video I took and then Killa getting to play afterwards. The puppies are 6 months old and probably nearing the 50 lbs range. I'm glad they got to have their fun. Here there are no "authorities", people could care less about what goes on at the dog park, it's a use at your own risk type thing. Im going to make some calls today and find out if there is someone to call when something happens at the dog park. Like I said I have seen this guy before and have had a few choice words with him. The last time he was over in the large dog area and his female was getting it a fight with a larger dog and she was loosing. He did nothing just let the dog beat up on her and her lash out and bite the other dog. When I said something like you really should take her out he said no it's good for her, I want her to be protective. So then he proceeded to leash her up and let the other dog go at her and her at him, only in a controlled way so she couldn't hurt the other dog.
> 
> Poodlebeguiled, I had no issue with him taking his turn at the park. I was ready to wait my turn patiently.* It was when he got angry at me and told me I should leave when I got pissed. He started the whole thing not me.* Ok I take that back, maybe my RBF had a bit to do with it. But that is all natural I can't help it &#55357;&#56841;.


I get that. A person can only take so much, right. He sounded like a belligerent jerk. You did nothing wrong. What is RBF?

Oh, and what a cute video!


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Lol. Thank you. and it stands for Resting Bitch Face. 
Or another version


----------



## KellyL (Apr 17, 2013)

Are these pups always in the small dog area of the park?


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Lol. Thank you. and it stands for Resting Bitch Face.
> Or another version
> View attachment 279401


:amen:

Haha...


----------



## Smudge (Apr 14, 2015)

Oh my days, you are officially my hero! That's brilliant!


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

loved the video of killa. why was the other dog on the other side of the fence? as for the gsd owner, time to bring out one of our favorite expressions around here: you can't fix stupid - encouraging aggression in one's dogs is about as stupid as a human can get. kind of like folks who insist on waving guns around and then are surprised when they shoot themselves in the foot - or get arrested for threatening others. ultimately the sad sacks of the world.


----------



## LittleJaws (Jul 29, 2014)

I don't know about your parks, but small children are not allowed in our dog parks. What a rule abiding family! I do like my dog park, but I have to take turns on who I take. Because I do not want any accidents with someone stepping on Willie, or the other way around with the biggins. 
I would have reacted the same.


----------



## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

I'm seriously impressed!

Have to say I wouldn't have gone in in the first place... I would have sidled off and then been cross with myself afterwards!

If he'd come in after me though... that would have been a different matter. I don't know why but someone wrongly invading my space sets me off, or if I'm already somewhere and they wrongly invade... don't know how to describe it really but I do a Jekyll and Hyde thing!

But wow, that was quick cool thinking!!!


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Manxcat said:


> I'm seriously impressed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand the difference, but personally I would tell him off either way. I have told many a person with a big dog to remove theirs before I ever went in. And you should have heard me yelling at the jerk who did not clean up a big nasty puddle of vomit that his dog left in the run! If it had been my local park I would have taken his picture and posted it all over the park!


----------



## Pompadour Poodle (Jul 6, 2015)

This is surprising, this just happened to me... Unfortunately it didn't result in me telling off the jerk/jerkette. 
I took Gus to the Dog park for the first time last week. They have a puppy park too. Well we went to walk by the puppy park and ONE dog was in there. A pit mix and definitely not a puppy. 
Since I was getting Gus used to it, we walked around the fence on the outside. The whole time Sweet Bella rushed the fence aggressively. The owner spoke to me and said that Bella gets nervous around a lot of dogs, haha, blah blah and some other stuff. It didn't feel right so we went to Big Boy park, where Gus got hurt in the first 10 minutes there. When we were leaving, Bella and her family were leaving. Gus went up to her, I started to pull him back but not in time. Bella bit Gus on the lip. Skin wasn't broken, thank god. The whole time jerkette was saying stuff like "She never does this, I don't know why she is doing that" I couldn't muster the strength to tell them off, I just picked Gus up and left crying. 
So apparently this is something common that aggressive dog owners do? It is so wrong, at least I can live vicariously through you.. In my dreams I conjure up PoodleCrazy#1 spitfire wit and quick thinking, and call animal control on them. You are my hero!:adore:

* Dog Parks are usually operated and maintained by the City's Park Department. I would check and see if a service number listed on the website, on the rules and etiquette for dog park or just call the department to find out. I just checked my city and it said for emergencies call 911:dontknow:.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

No, not all aggressive dog owners are like that. Most of them don't bring their dog to the park or, at one park that we go to there is a guy with an aggressive Pitbull who waits until we all leave and then brings his dog into the small dog park alone.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think there are people who believe that taking their dog to a park is somehow going to work magic and lessen a dog's aggression. really the owner would be better off spending his/her time better learning how to handle the dog, including consulting with a veterinary behaviorist.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

KellyL said:


> Are these pups always in the small dog area of the park?



Usually because there is never dogs in the small dog area (sometimes I think I'm the only one that ever uses it) so he takes them there. If the large dog park is empty he will go over there but I've only seen that once, and once another large dog entered he leashed up his dog and left.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

patk said:


> loved the video of killa. why was the other dog on the other side of the fence? as for the gsd owner, time to bring out one of our favorite expressions around here: you can't fix stupid - encouraging aggression in one's dogs is about as stupid as a human can get. kind of like folks who insist on waving guns around and then are surprised when they shoot themselves in the foot - or get arrested for threatening others. ultimately the sad sacks of the world.



That was the large dog area. They were the little dogs he was talking about when he said "there are small dogs over there." I wish they were allowed to come over and play with Killa but these owners were more concerned about socializing themselves than their dogs. There was two other dogs as well but the lady refused to put one on the ground and the other just sat on the bench with its owner. I once saw a bumper sticker that said you can't fix stupid, I really wish I could get one of those.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Manxcat said:


> I'm seriously impressed!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh he has tried that before! I gave him the nastiest look I could muster and he walked off with his dogs muttering to himself.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Usually because there is never dogs in the small dog area (sometimes I think I'm the only one that ever uses it) so he takes them there. If the large dog park is empty he will go over there but I've only seen that once, and once another large dog entered he leashed up his dog and left.



Unfortunately although most of the dog parks around here have both big and small dog areas, the small dog side is so small that all of the dogs play in the big area, and they bring their dogs, big and small, into the small dog side to potty - gross!
There are only three parks that we have found that have tolerable small dog areas... Wish Timi could have bigger ones to run in - I hate that she always has to run in circles...


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Unfortunately although most of the dog parks around here have both big and small dog areas, the small dog side is so small that all of the dogs play in the big area, and they bring their dogs, big and small, into the small dog side to potty - gross!


Do they not pick up after their dogs? In our park there would be a couple of pleasant, smiling people pointedly offering them bags. lol


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Do they not pick up after their dogs? In our park there would be a couple of pleasant, smiling people pointedly offering them bags. lol



They do mostly, but in a SMALL pebbled area that probably 500 dogs a day are peeing and pooping in - the odor is overwhelming.


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

So unfortunately Rocky appears to be one of those dogs that owners hate to see at the dog park. We were bringing him regularly when he was younger, and he did get into a one or two altercations, but we never really knew which dog was at fault. We had a hot summer here and every time we went to the dog park, it was empty, so we stopped going for awhile.

Over the weekend we had a cooler day and took him to the park. At first he was getting along with the other dogs. Unfortunately Rocky has a bit of a ball obsession. He loves to fetch and will carry a ball in his mouth all day long. Well he developed a new game at the park. It's called steal the other dogs ball, drop it and attack the dog when he retrieves it.

It happened with a doodle a little smaller then Rocky. The doodle was pretty upset but not hurt. The doodle owner was not happy. I was hoping it was a one time thing. Rocky then played the game again with another dog, same result.

Needless to say, we left the park, disappointed. Very un-poodle like behavior.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oliverthedog said:


> So unfortunately Rocky appears to be one of those dogs that owners hate to see at the dog park. We were bringing him regularly when he was younger, and he did get into a one or two altercations, but we never really knew which dog was at fault. We had a hot summer here and every time we went to the dog park, it was empty, so we stopped going for awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Um, you should have left the park after the first attack. And you should not go back - no fair risking other dogs emotional and physical well being. And he might just wind up on the losing end of a fight that he started, so not good for anyone!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Um, you should have left the park after the first attack. And you should not go back - no fair risking other dogs emotional and physical well being. And he might just wind up on the losing end of a fight that he started, so not good for anyone!



Ditto, hate to say it but Rocky's behavior is why I stay away from dog parks for the most part. Also my Lily is ball obsessed in a major way, but knows that drop it and leave it are not orders to be given a second thought. The last time she was at a dog park she found an ownerless ball and after I got tired of throwing it for her she went and pestered other people to throw it for her. I didn't really think that was very good either.


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Um, you should have left the park after the first attack. And you should not go back - no fair risking other dogs emotional and physical well being. And he might just wind up on the losing end of a fight that he started, so not good for anyone!


The two incidents were back to back, within moments of each other. We were making sure that the doodle was OK when the next one occurred. Both my wife and I have enough good judgement to not endanger any dogs including Rocky and we have no intention of returning until Rocky learns to behave.


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Archie's a major ball thief (usually as a way to instigate a chase game), so that kind of thing always makes me nervous. Luckily most of the people we've met with toy-guarding dogs have warned everyone upfront that their dogs can be iffy about sharing toys, so I know to either watch him like a hawk or just leave.

I do get that dogs aren't 100% predictable and sometimes these behaviors just pop up, though. That's part of the risk you take with dog parks. In that case it's just good when owners are courteous enough to take their dogs and not come back until they're sure it's under control, like Oliverthedog is doing.


----------



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> The last time she was at a dog park she found an ownerless ball and after I got tired of throwing it for her she went and pestered other people to throw it for her. I didn't really think that was very good either.


I've had multiple dogs come up to me at the park with balls, clearly wanting me to throw for them. Usually when looking around their owners are more interested in each other than their dog, so I'll pointedly throw the ball directly at them in the hopes they get the picture. Usually they do, and when they don't I just play fetch with a stranger's dog for a bit. It's not the dog's fault, so it doesn't bother me at all


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Coldbrew said:


> I've had multiple dogs come up to me at the park with balls, clearly wanting me to throw for them. Usually when looking around their owners are more interested in each other than their dog, so I'll pointedly throw the ball directly at them in the hopes they get the picture. Usually they do, and when they don't I just play fetch with a stranger's dog for a bit. It's not the dog's fault, so it doesn't bother me at all



I actually think it is cute when dogs go around asking strangers to throw the ball for them. I will always happily oblige if they will actually hand it over, most of them are just teases lol


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Balls, toys, and treats are not really welcome at our park. If you bring them, you're going to be the one we turn to if things go wrong.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Countryboy said:


> Balls, toys, and treats are not really welcome at our park. If you bring them, you're going to be the one we turn to if things go wrong.



Dogs who will fight over possessions are fighters - they don't belong in the dog park period.
Oliver's Mom noted that he had two previous fights, cause unknown, no mention of balls being involved.


----------



## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Countryboy said:


> Balls, toys, and treats are not really welcome at our park. If you bring them, you're going to be the one we turn to if things go wrong.


I don't see why balls, toys, etc. wouldn't be welcome. Just as in any public place, everyone needs to practice safety. I'd be more afraid that a dog would steal one and carry it home with them, lol. ;-)


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Coldbrew said:


> I've had multiple dogs come up to me at the park with balls, clearly wanting me to throw for them. Usually when looking around their owners are more interested in each other than their dog, so I'll pointedly throw the ball directly at them in the hopes they get the picture. Usually they do, and when they don't I just play fetch with a stranger's dog for a bit. It's not the dog's fault, so it doesn't bother me at all


What I don't like is how ball obsessed she can get, to the exclusion of paying attention to me or what is going on around her. Everybody who was compelled to throw for her did so because they found her cute though.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

One of my all time favorite thought pieces on dog parks.
"*Dog Parks: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"*
https://apdt.com/docs/resources/dog-park/dog-parks-goodbadugly.pdf

Far as I'm concerned, a dog needs a dog park like a fish needs a bicycle. That's my opinion, and this discussion has done zippo to change it. But I do hope those who go do so happily and safely. The link above may help with that.


----------



## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

At our park there's a general understanding that everyone will end up sharing any toy you bring. There's usually a supply of tennis balls that have been left there because they get so dusty/dirty that nobody wants to take them home anyway. But you're almost never throwing a ball for just one dog - usually there's a group of them racing to the ball, and whoever wins takes it back. Most of the owners will end up throwing the ball at some point, since some dogs are goofy and just take the ball to their owner or the closest human instead of whoever threw it. It's a pretty small park, though, so there isn't that much room for separate games of fetch. Anyway, I'm guessing that's why people pick up pretty quickly that they shouldn't bring a toy-guarding dog there - when you pick up your dog's ball and suddenly find four dogs waiting for you to throw it, you know there's likely to be a problem, haha!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Chagall's Mom that is an excellent piece. One of the important things mentioned goes back to Frank's comment that toys and treats are frowned on because they can be the source of resource guarding issues.

Dog parks are only as good as the owners who bring their dogs. This thread started out about stupid owners who don't know how to supervise and use a dog park well and I guess now it is back around to that part of the topic.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> toys and treats are frowned on because they can be the source of resource guarding issues.


Our park is mostly for dogs and we will adjust human behaviour for them. If your Fluffy has a resource guarding issue, let us know and we will put any balls away. *They do sneak in from time.*

By the same token a newbie would be warned if one of ours was a guarder. I'd just tell them to go ahead and throw it. But that they might not ever see it again.


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Dogs who will fight over possessions are fighters - they don't belong in the dog park period.
> Oliver's Mom noted that he had two previous fights, cause unknown, no mention of balls being involved.


First of all I'm Oliver's dad, not his mom. 

Second of all, he has been to the park many times without an incident. I also mentioned that we were unsure which dog started the fight. Rocky was only nine months old at the time and it could have been puppy exhuberence that instigated it, or it could have been the larger dog (Shephard) bullying Rocky and he stood up to him.

Third of all, he went through a training regime since then with other dogs and behaved very well.

And lastly, we will continue to train him, and if we feel he is ready, we'll try again. 

I do hope that you visit parks that cater to small dogs. If not, you are putting your dog in a lot of danger.


----------



## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I have said this before but the way so few people follow rules anymore makes me crazy!! I do take Raven to the dog park near me because we have a tiny postage stamp yard and sometimes she just needs a place to run hard. Most of the time it is OK but I have definitely left before due to rude owners and out of control dogs. 

I am also very sick of people showing up with pits and pit mixes. There are signs the size of billboards forbidding Pitt bulls and unaltered dogs of any breed, but I am seeing it more and more. It aslso happens that the park is within a city limit in which it is illegal to even own a Pitt bull! So much for that making a difference... We used to see people from the dog park board fairly regularly who kep things controlled, but now I never see them. 

I am not sure who to call either, or I would have on several occasions. I see the same thing at our park because so few people use the small dog area people bring dogs in there that do not belong at the park...period. It is maddening to drive over there, get Raven all excited to be there only to have to leave because of obnoxious owners and banned dogs&#55357;&#56865;

I wish I had the guts to confront them like you did, but in today's world I'm not sure it's worth the risk.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oliverthedog said:


> First of all I'm Oliver's dad, not his mom.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My apologies for getting your gender wrong.
Yes of course I only take Timi to runs that have separate small dog areas - and honestly, I don't envy the folks on the large dog side, that is where most every fight that I have seen has taken place, and I wouldn't want the responsibility of breaking up a large dog fight!
Now, I know that you won't like what I am going to say, and I am not going to argue with you about it, but I am going to tell you that in my opinion Rocky is not, and never will be an appropriate dog for the dog park. I do not think that it matters what started the fights - being picked on and standing up for himself, resource guarding or whatever. He has already demonstrated that when he feels that he needs to, fighting is one of the ways that he handles a situation. Not every dog has that in their repertoire, but Rocky does. Timi will never be in a fight because it isn't in her repertoire. She might get attacked if a dog does not accept her avoidance of fighting behaviors (unlikely, because she is good at that, to date no dog has ever even hinted at being aggressive with her), but SHE would not fight.
You may be able to make Rocky more obedient, he may get better at dog communication, but a dog park is a challenging and chaotic environment with constantly changing players and dynamics, and you cannot ever be sure that Rocky will not have a moment when he will revert to the "fight option", and in my opinion it would be very unfair of you to "try it again" at the risk of somebody else's dog being emotionally or physically injured. 
The dog park just isn't for all dogs. That does not mean that they are bad dogs, it just is not the right environment for them. 
Like somebody said earlier in this thread, it is a great day when you arrive at the dog park and all of the dogs there are "good dog park dogs" - don't be THAT GUY who ruins everybody's day, including Rocky's!


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Now, I know that you won't like what I am going to say, and I am not going to argue with you about it, but I am going to tell you that in my opinion Rocky is not, and never will be an appropriate dog for the dog park. I do not think that it matters what started the fights - being picked on and standing up for himself, resource guarding or whatever. He has already demonstrated that when he feels that he needs to, fighting is one of the ways that he handles a situation. Not every dog has that in their repertoire, but Rocky does. Timi will never be in a fight because it isn't in her repertoire. She might get attacked if a dog does not accept her avoidance of fighting behaviors (unlikely, because she is good at that, to date no dog has ever even hinted at being aggressive with her), but SHE would not fight.
> You may be able to make Rocky more obedient, he may get better at dog communication, but a dog park is a challenging and chaotic environment with constantly changing players and dynamics, and you cannot ever be sure that Rocky will not have a moment when he will revert to the "fight option", and in my opinion it would be very unfair of you to "try it again" at the risk of somebody else's dog being emotionally or physically injured.
> The dog park just isn't for all dogs. That does not mean that they are bad dogs, it just is not the right environment for them.
> Like somebody said earlier in this thread, it is a great day when you arrive at the dog park and all of the dogs there are "good dog park dogs" - don't be THAT GUY who ruins everybody's day, including Rocky's!


To permanently ban my dog based on a couple of incidents is unfair. When we feel he is further in his training and a bit older, and the puppy exuberance has subsided we'll try again. He enjoys the park and we enjoy taking him there. He's had many good days at the park and only had issues on two visits. We have received many compliments on how well he behaves. If everybody thought like you and kept their dogs from the park due to one or two altercations then the parks would be empty. Rocky is not typically aggressive though he has shown that he will stand his ground. The guarding of the balls is behavior that he has not displayed before, and we are hoping to nip it in the bud. If we can't he doesn't return, if he shows signs of improvement he visit the parks again.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oliverthedog said:


> To permanently ban my dog based on a couple of incidents is unfair. When we feel he is further in his training and a bit older, and the puppy exuberance has subsided we'll try again. He enjoys the park and we enjoy taking him there. He's had many good days at the park and only had issues on two visits. We have received many compliments on how well he behaves. If everybody thought like you and kept their dogs from the park due to one or two altercations then the parks would be empty. Rocky is not typically aggressive though he has shown that he will stand his ground. The guarding of the balls is behavior that he has not displayed before, and we are hoping to nip it in the bud. If we can't he doesn't return, if he shows signs of improvement he visit the parks again.



I disagree, if everyone felt like me and kept their dog away from the park because of two altercations, then the 50 percent of dogs who are not suited for a dog park would be absent and it would be a perfect place for the other fifty percent of dogs who are well suited for it.
I hope that you understand that dog to dog aggression is an entirely different thing than dog - people aggression. Feeling confident in his behavior with your family is not an indication that he is "safe" to go back to the dog park. If you insist upon trying, somebody else's dog is going to be put at risk, and the only responsible way to undertake that would be in a controlled way under the eyes and guidance of an expert trainer or behaviorist.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Everyone should read the article Chagall's Mom posted a link for above.


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I disagree, if everyone felt like me and kept their dog away from the park because of two altercations, then the 50 percent of dogs who are not suited for a dog park would be absent and it would be a perfect place for the other fifty percent of dogs who are well suited for it.
> I hope that you understand that dog to dog aggression is an entirely different thing than dog - people aggression. Feeling confident in his behavior with your family is not an indication that he is "safe" to go back to the dog park. If you insist upon trying, somebody else's dog is going to be put at risk, and the only responsible way to undertake that would be in a controlled way under the eyes and guidance of an expert trainer or behaviorist.


Can you guarantee 100% that your dog will never defend herself? Can you guarantee that she will never try and take another dogs toy? She is a dog not a child. Stuff happens. If that happens will you never take your dog back to the park?

My dog's trainer has been notified about the issue and we planning on working on it. Rocky is a product of a rescue. He may have had to fight for toys or fight for his life. All in all his disposition has been rated very good (especially considering his humble beginnings), his trainer has even suggested that we consider therapy dog training. You judging him without evaluating him personally is unfair.


----------



## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Oliverthedog said:


> To permanently ban my dog based on a couple of incidents is unfair. When we feel he is further in his training and a bit older, and the puppy exuberance has subsided we'll try again. He enjoys the park and we enjoy taking him there. He's had many good days at the park and only had issues on two visits. We have received many compliments on how well he behaves. If everybody thought like you and kept their dogs from the park due to one or two altercations then the parks would be empty. Rocky is not typically aggressive though he has shown that he will stand his ground. The guarding of the balls is behavior that he has not displayed before, and we are hoping to nip it in the bud. If we can't he doesn't return, if he shows signs of improvement he visit the parks again.


Why do you think the dog park is so important in Rocky's life? I brought my spoo girl to the dog park when she was about 4.5 months old and I thought it was important. Yes she ran and played but there were some dogs & owners that were not good. I also determined that my dog did not need other dog interaction. She was not going to live among them, she was going to live in MY FAMILY, not an unstable dog family. And since I realized that she needs less doggy time and more human time, she has become much more human-like and much calmer. She was horrendous on the leash but since that was our only exercise for a while, she has come a long way. I wish I had paid more time on socializing her with cats because when she sees one her doors BLOW OFF 

If Piper got into a fight at the dog park, I would not be anywhere near even thinking about bringing her back in there because she doesn't need it. Yes, I am sure the other non pit bull owners wish I would bring my poodle back in but I walk on by. I do feel a little sorry for the desperate, hopeful look on some of their faces when Piper walks by and doesn't come in.

Is there somewhere else that Rocky can play fetch with you? The tennis courts at off hours were great for Piper until I was ejected by park police. 

pr


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope everyone reads Chagall's Mom's article. Take a look at the bar chart. That was an eye opener. I know dog parks can be good places for some dogs, but for the majority in that study they can lead to unwanted behaviors. The "I don't have to listen to you" behavior would be a huge set back in my dog's training. I guarantee that would happen with Buck.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Dog Parks are tricky places. 

Dogs with perfect recall will lose that obedience at a park. Interactions with other dogs are always friendly... except when they're not. And there's rarely a warning early enuf for owners to react... except after the fact... and then we deal with it. First with time-outs, and then go on to other methods.

A dog waiting to pounce on another who picks up the ball is certainly unusual. I love unusual dog interaction, it's fascinating to me, so I would probably watch open-mouthed when I first saw this... and then step in to try to assist the 'pouncer' owner with suggestions to mitigate that behaviour.


----------



## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Ever since Naira and I found a fenced in field behind a college campus that's barely used...we haven't been to the dog park. I would say that was around 2-3 months ago. 

Nothing gets her more tired than playing with another dog, but having the field to play in and practice obedience has been nice. I would never even attempt to call her at the dog park...now at the field if I call her and say it's time to go, she comes to me immediately and sits down waiting to be leashed. Sometimes she rushes the fence if she sees a jogger or another dog but listens if I call her back.. 

I much prefer play dates with other well behaved dogs. And every once in a while a dog will pass us and the owner will ask if it's ok for them to play. That works really well. 

My dream is having a large fenced in yard and two standard poodles to play with each other...dog parks are ok, but I probably will never be a regular.


----------



## Oliverthedog (Mar 10, 2015)

My yard is a bit small though large enough for him to go full speed for a short sprint. 

It's a very big possibility that he will no longer go to the park if he continues to show his obsession with balls. It's actually becoming a huge PIA in our home. This obsession is what caused the issue at the park as well. I'm hoping the trainer can change this behavior.

I believe dog socialization is important and Rocky loves it. We are trying to give him the best and happiest life possible. I have reason to believe the first eight months of his life were horrible and almost losing him to his recent kidney failure made it even more important to us.

The dog park that we go to is the same one that we used to take Oliver. We know many of the owners and their dogs. The dog owners know the risks and accept them and we all practice risk mitigation by identifying issues and having the owners resolve them. I'm mitigating the risk by getting Rocky's ball obsession eliminated. This obsession has caused damage to our flooring and furniture by him attempting to retrieve balls that have rolled under the furniture or is behind closed doors so there is more to this training then just the dog park.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oliverthedog said:


> Can you guarantee 100% that your dog will never defend herself? Can you guarantee that she will never try and take another dogs toy? She is a dog not a child. Stuff happens. If that happens will you never take your dog back to the park?
> 
> My dog's trainer has been notified about the issue and we planning on working on it. Rocky is a product of a rescue. He may have had to fight for toys or fight for his life. All in all his disposition has been rated very good (especially considering his humble beginnings), his trainer has even suggested that we consider therapy dog training. You judging him without evaluating him personally is unfair.



Yes, I can guarantee that Timi will never try to defend herself and that she will never try to take another dogs toy. I also know that she is very good at avoiding and calming conflict with other dogs. I know this just like I know that the six poodles that I raised before her did not belong anywhere near a dog park (for various reasons, and none of them aggression), I know that Timi (through almost no "fault" of my own) happens to be the perfect dog park dog. Had I seen any indication at all that she wasn't, then yup, absolutely we would have left and never gone back, and just like the six before her, she would live a perfectly happy life sans dog park. I raise and care for my dogs within the parameters of who they are, not who I wish that they were.

Timi sizing up the other dogs.








Everyone seems friendly








And a playmate had been chosen 







She didn't want his ball, and he wasn't guarding it.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I absolutely agree with everything in that article Chagall'smom posted. This is why I have never been a fan of dog parks. Everyone should definitely read that article. 

Behavior is not static and _any_ dog can start or be the recipient of a signal that may be misread because of unfamiliarity with each other. This is why I would only remotely consider a very few types of dog parks, such as mentioned at the end of that article and some with pictures that were posted here. Some with very large pieces of property with trees, hills, areas that are blocked visually so dogs aren't forced to run into each other head on where they're looking at each other for a long time face to face as they're approaching each other. etc. And I'd only consider those less populated places if there were no other options for some exercise. I _do _understand their existence but they're not a natural kind of setting for dogs, _although_ dogs _are_ scavengers and wild and early domestic proto dogs gathered with unrelated and random dogs on garbage heaps...not always the same dogs but they were together only because they were scavenging for food. Then they'd go back to their own little family if they had pups or they'd just be alone. But I think _our_ domestic dogs have come to evolve into very familial animals after living with humans for so long...that is that they're more accustomed to being with familiar dogs within a household or a couple friends' dogs that they see fairly regularly so they know each other's _language. _ 

I agree with Countryboy about bringing toys into the midst of a bunch of dogs unknown to each other as being a big mistake. I do not label a dog as a fighter particularly, because it resource guards it's ball. That is normal dog behavior. With the high value toy absent, that same dog that guards his toy does not necessarily pick a fight for any other reason and isn't apt to want to fight. My own dogs may squabble over a mutually and_ highly _valued toy. If I keep that high value toy away from them, they're, 99% of the time just fine and nothing else causes one to become riled. I learn which toys they're fine with sharing for these specific dogs and which I best keep out of reach of "children." If I put a big juicy raw bone in front of 3 or 4 dogs, you better believe only one is going to get it and he's going to make sure no one else does. (I don't know which one would get there first and not one of my dogs is the "alpha schmalfa." It could be any one of them. If dogs were so passive about something like that, how would they have ever survived and evolved to pass on their survival genes? LOL. No they're not fighters. They're animals. And yes, I realize some dogs may not get riled up about losing their stuff. Maybe they've played or chewed on it long enough and are tired of it anyhow or are not intensely interested in it. And most dogs, once one has an item will not try to take it. Possession is 9/10th of the law with animals. Occasionally they try it. It's when they both go for it at the same time or one relinquishes it and then changes his mind right away, just as the other is going for it that problems can arise. But if they do squabble over something, I don't think that, in itself is a reason to keep them away from other dogs. Keep the high value toys away. I think there are a lot of other reasons to stick to a limited number of dogs..._known_ dogs. Just like I monitored who my human children had for friends, so do I with my dogs.

Okay, that said, I'll just keep getting more dogs and have my own dog park in my back yard. haha. No, just kidding. No more dogs. 3 is enough. The most I had at one time was 5 and one was a foster (of sorts)...a Beagle. And that dog was very easy going. I'm not into having that many dogs anymore. :ahhhhh:


----------



## hollyollyc (Dec 2, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> I hope everyone reads Chagall's Mom's article. Take a look at the bar chart. That was an eye opener. I know dog parks can be good places for some dogs, but for the majority in that study they can lead to unwanted behaviors. The "I don't have to listen to you" behavior would be a huge set back in my dog's training. I guarantee that would happen with Buck.



Poodlecrazy, you did the right thing. You waited patiently for your turn that you shouldn't have even had to encounter. If you didn't stick up to him, honestly, who would? Kudos, kudos. So many people don't respect these rules and guidelines that are put in place for a reason.

Mfmst, I read that article and it really explains how a major downside of parks is that the owners can give their dogs the wrong signals or can't pick up on their dog's signals. I was highly dumbfounded by this quote:

"Occasionally, some owners use parks as babysitters, even leaving their dogs unattended while they shop."

Wow, I hope I never run into someone like that.

This article really helped me interpret what happened yesterday. If only I read it beforehand. Jasmin went to her first dog park yesterday. I took her because she does great in daycare but, she got into an altercation with a beagle puppy who was in her biting, rough play phase. Reading this article I feel so bad that I did not instantly leave as soon as I saw the beagle puppy's behavior. He was following her around when she was walking away (I didn't realize this was bad behavior, I let it happen because I thought it was to help them get use to each other) and the first thing the puppy did was introduce herself face-to-face. When a ball was thrown the beagle rammed her and she tumbled and then got on top of her and growling ensued. I quickly separated them and I bet it looked terrible to Jasmin because I was holding the beagle until his owner walked over and I hope she didn't think I was protecting the beagle and not her. They generally didn't care for one another after that. They just put distance between each other, no growling or barking. Jasmin jumped onto my lap and I just waited for them to leave. Later we were joined by other dogs who knew really well how to behave and play with smaller dogs. She was running around with them and playing, I was even able to take some very cute videos.

I wish they would do 3 runs, small, medium, and then large because I honestly do not know how I feel about Jasmin playing with "big dog" puppies who don't know how to play with small dogs. In daycare they put older big/medium calm dogs with the small breeds, but never big breed puppies even though they are small in size. They just weigh so much more and play rough and bite and I would assume these owners will always take their puppies to the small dog area and think "oh, its okay shes a puppy so she can bite for now".


I don't know yet. While this park is nicely maintained, shaded, clean, and only 21 mins. away. I may end up going to the park that is 48 mins. away if we go again. The farther away one requires all dogs to be registered before being allowed in which means all the dogs are licensed with the county w/ rabies shot and I think it weeds out some of the select unwanted fee. I also got to speak to some of its members and they were telling me how they pick up for one another if they happen to find an uh-oh and also poop guard for the ones they know love to eat the yummy smelling brown things on the ground. I think that says a lot about the community overall.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

hollyollyc said:


> I quickly separated them and I bet it looked terrible to Jasmin because I was holding the beagle until his owner walked over... Tonka will never care if I'm with another dog and not him. lol They generally didn't care for one another after that. They just put distance between each other, no growling or barking


The perfect action on your part... corral the instigator. And a quite typical denouement.

I've seen this happen sooooo many times. The instigator gets 'amped-up', to the point where they can't control their obsessive 'following' and 'harassing'. Separate them, give the 'bad guy' a time-out... and they(?) learn to avoid each other. Moreso than a lot of owners, I'm willing to 'trust the dogs', let them work it out. A lot of times they do.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

hollyollyc said:


> Poodlecrazy, you did the right thing. You waited patiently for your turn that you shouldn't have even had to encounter. If you didn't stick up to him, honestly, who would? Kudos, kudos. So many people don't respect these rules and guidelines that are put in place for a reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Absolutely, you must be ever vigilant, watch all the behavior like a hawk and be ready to intervene and leave if everything isn't right. Timi is normally the smallest dog in the small dog side, so I have to be very watchful that another dog does not body slam or nip at her when they are running.
That membership park sounds like a great idea, much more likely to have caring dog parents, and I bet that they would rescind membership of dogs who get too aggressive at the park!
Interestingly the park that we go to that tends to have a lower income demographic, the people ever bring large breed puppies into the small dog area, but we have run into that issue many times at the park we go to in a higher end neighborhood -sense of entitlement and lack of empathy for others I guess? 
Unfortunately there are no dog parks in my neighborhood - we are near Central Park, but most annoyingly, it does not have dog runs.


----------



## hollyollyc (Dec 2, 2014)

Yes, the best part is that the park as a whole has a council and members show up to council meetings to discuss things that need to be fixed/upgraded in the park. I have a feeling it will be worth the 48 min. drive. 

PS - Thanks for the reassurance countryboy!


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Talk about stupid owners - on the way to the park today, some jogger comes up behind me with a GSD on a long leash, allowing it to get right up in Timi's face - I nearly broke poor Timi's neck yanking her away!


----------



## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Chagall's mom said:


> One of my all time favorite thought pieces on dog parks.
> "*Dog Parks: the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly"*
> https://apdt.com/docs/resources/dog-park/dog-parks-goodbadugly.pdf
> 
> Far as I'm concerned, a dog needs a dog park like a fish needs a bicycle. That's my opinion, and this discussion has done zippo to change it. But I do hope those who go do so happily and safely. The link above may help with that.


Good article. We're a city of 50,000 people and we don't have dog parks here. We have parks of course, but nothing like a dog park. There's just no need for it. I can understand though why cities such as New York City would need dog parks. Places like that absolutely need dog parks. It all depends on where a person lives. It makes me feel so blessed that living out in the country, I can go out my front door, walk my dog, and meet up with some doggies friends along the way. That's one thing I really miss.


----------

