# Rant: Guilt-tripped over going to breeder vs. rescue?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Where do all those only get a rescue people think the dogs they find come from? Some sort of breeding right...

Personally I never bother getting involved with people like that. I once had a guy in Lowes come up to talk to Lily and Javelin. He asked me what rescue I got them from and I said they were from 2 different responsible breeders. He sneared at me and walked away. Good riddance I say!

Family members adopted two Puerto Rican street dogs. These dogs are both emotional train wrecks and loaded with various health problems. I actually tend to think for some dogs like these euthanasia is a kindness. It also bothers me that these dogs came from off shore. Don't we have enough dogs in need of new homes here already?

Go ahead and call me a snobby grinch if you want but for all three of our dogs (we also have a GSD) we wanted to know they were healthy and had spent their first weeks with breeders who nurtured them to be even tempered and healthy. They have all been performance sport dogs.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I understand what you're feeling. There's been such a big push recently of the "Adopt don't shop!" slogan, it's like all nuance has been lost from the discussion of this very complex issue.

I would just say this: A breeder who vets and requires potential owners to sign a contract, legally agreeing to return that dog if their circumstances change, is not only _not_ part of the shelter problem, they are part of the solution.

It's time to stop acting like there are only two choices—rescue or buy from an unethical breeder.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My standard answer is "I am allergic to dogs, this is one of the few dogs I can have, are you saying I cannot have a dog?"
Honestly it's none of their business, not their choice, so don't try to justify it to them, do what is best for you and your family and find the best breeder and get your pup.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm sorry you're having these conversations. It sounds like you've educated yourself well, and these people, well, haven't. You're making a good choice for your family, and your future puppy is lucky to have you.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

When I was younger it bothered me more, but quite frankly I’m too old to be guilt tripped. 

My first childhood dog was a cocker spaniel schnauzer mix, Charlie. He was such a sweetheart. Then came Rusty, who we found in the classifieds free. A true mutt. His mom (who had just shown up at someone’s house in the country) was a nondescript brown dog. Rusty was a fun childhood dog also. Then I went to college were my boyfriend (now husband) adopted Emily, a “red-bone coonhound” from the shelter. There is no way she had any kind of hound in her whatsoever, but she was red, sooo. Then a year later Zoe, a JRT mix most likely, that showed up at a family friends work. Good hearted family friend took her in but didn’t have the dog-sense to handle a 6 month old JRT so I got her. Then Diego about 5 years later from the pound and Jack the year after that from a rescue. Diego’s results are below (I wish we’d been able to get them for the girls!), and Jack was a bull terrier.

So no. I don’t have any guilt about my purebred poodle puppy that I’ve always wanted. I refuse to let anybody make me feel bad for making what I believe is the best choice for my family. It’s not just adults in this house anymore, and I need to know what I’m getting into. There was a time I adopted from the shelter, as well as fostered litters of newborn puppies and kittens, and I’m positive there will be a time for it in the future, but that time is not now for us. Diego is still with us at 13.5, and is and always has been the most bomb proof dog ever. New pup Starla will fit perfectly into our family, which I know because I know what we can handle and what we can expect.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Starla said:


> When I was younger it bothered me more, but quite frankly I’m too old to be guilt tripped.
> 
> My first childhood dog was a cocker spaniel schnauzer mix, Charlie. He was such a sweetheart. Then came Rusty, who we found in the classifieds free. A true mutt. His mom (who had just shown up at someone’s house in the country) was a nondescript brown dog. Rusty was a fun childhood dog also. Then I went to college were my boyfriend (now husband) adopted Emily, a “red-bone coonhound” from the shelter. There is no way she had any kind of hound in her whatsoever, but she was red, sooo. Then a year later Zoe, a JRT mix most likely, that showed up at a family friends work. Good hearted family friend took her in but didn’t have the dog-sense to handle a 6 month old JRT so I got her. Then Diego about 5 years later from the pound and Jack the year after that from a rescue. Diego’s results are below (I wish we’d been able to get them for the girls!), and Jack was a bull terrier.
> 
> So no. I don’t have any guilt about my purebred poodle puppy that I’ve always wanted. I refuse to let anybody make me feel bad for making what I believe is the best choice for my family. It’s not just adults in this house anymore, and I need to know what I’m getting into. There was a time I adopted from the shelter, as well as fostered litters of newborn puppies and kittens, and I’m positive there will be a time for it in the future, but that time is not now for us. Diego is still with us at 13.5, and is and always has been the most bomb proof dog ever. New pup Starla will fit perfectly into our family, which I know because I know what we can handle and what we can expect.


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## Jenna2020 (Jul 28, 2020)

So I have always adopted rescue dogs. Always. And mostly senior and special needs dogs. I volunteer with rescues and do foster care for both senior dogs and in the past mom cats and kittens for the spca. But I do not feel guilty about my current dog not coming from a rescue org. There isn't anything to feel guilty about as long as you aren't supporting a puppy mill or the likes of that.

Although I do just have to point out, I have fostered hundreds of rescue dogs, now granted mostly smaller dogs and older dogs. But most have been wonderful dogs that have just had a bad life or a bad circumstance. There have only been 2 dogs in all the years I have fostered that I wouldn't have trusted in a family and had severe issues ( one was almost put to sleep as his aggression was so bad towards anyone but the person he bonded to). In the end that one was adopted to a single person who promised to crate him in another room anytime she had guests over. But like I said for the most part my foster dogs have been great. My rescue standard poodle on the other hand was not great, and I have posted about him on here before.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

You are not alone.

I think @ptp makes a great point about the general perception being a 2 category choice. I can't blame people for not knowing a 3rd option exists when "30 puppies rescued from a puppy mill" makes the evening TV news or the sad Sarah McLachlan _In the Arms of the Angels_ infomercials at 1:00am guilt tripping you.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think many rescue advocates make two incorrect assumptions:
1) There is a fixed number of homes for dogs
2) Each purpose bred dog takes a spot in a home that would otherwise go to a rescue dog


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## BarbaraInJersey (Oct 10, 2020)

My own psycho rant ..We are searching for a puppy or adult dog now. I am ready to give up. I’m checking petfinder daily. I am even checking other breeds. I fostered for rescue for years, we were among the first 100 shelters in America to join petfinder. we have purchased a dog twice, rescued twice. Both purchases were because we had small children at the time. right now imho puppy mill breeder pups sold to rescues. humane society listed one big puppy mill operation who simply formed a 501(c)3 non profit rescue and listed their own puppies as rescues. This afternoon there are 584 puppies listed within 100 miles of my town. Majority of actual puppies are not from NJ. “Found as starving strays in Texas” is Popular. Asking $300-$600 each. One group brings a batch up each month. 95 dogs listed today and new young pups every month. They drive up here and in one day adopt out by prearranged placements. Friend still in statewide rescue says multiple groups are doing this.it’s a business. Complication here is local shelters will mainly have pit bull mixes, or full bred back yard bred dogs. Some used in fighting. Add to this I see groups now placing dogs with a bite history. one group admited dog was a problem and they required you sign away right to sue if injured!
I have never seen so many problem dogs with behavior issues that make the unacceptable to most people being offered by a rescue. I think because the stay home, covid issues emptied shelters, and legit breeders are now planning litters, asking down payments ($200-$1000) for 2021, 2022.

This New Scam Is Tricking People Into Buying Puppy Mill Dogs


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

trust me- you will be happy with your choice.

I have two rescue dogs - 
Deacon the lab ; Agression towards dogs, fearfullness to adults, reactivity, is healthy as far as we know.
Zeus the "American bully" ; Arthritis, Chronic UTI's, awful skin allergies, awful dental, is dog selective, possessive.

All results of awful breeding, a well bred pure bred is the way t go.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Do people who choose to have their own children as opposed to adopting from an orphanage get guilt tripped? 
Not usually, as they shouldn't, because it's a complex personal choice that no one really has the right to comment on. Why is it different with dogs for people? 
Adopting is awesome, but its merits shouldn't automatically mean that any other choice is taboo.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Oh I have such a hard time with such things. The older I get the more feisty I get about such things. So pardon my bluntness but I get mad on your behalf that people treat you that way. Don't let others 'should' on you. Here's how this ol' dog trainer looks at it:
- if your gut is telling you to go to a breeder, that is the end of the subject. Trust your gut. It rarely lets you down
-all these judgey-judgersons need to listen to what Thumper said on Bambi "if you can't say nuffin nice, don't say nuffin at all". If these folks are friends, they should act like it. It's a personal choice & not up for debate.
-are these folks going to live in your house & live with the consequences? Nope. So once again, they need to just shhhh... the world has enough negative in it without all that mess.

As you can imagine, my dogs come from breeders. I won't make any apology for it. I like to know what I'm getting. I like the predictability. When I get a dog, I have something in mind for that pup: My Giant Schnauzer was bought for her guardian skills, my Collie for her herding instincts & gentleness because she is the watcher of the tiny Chihuahuas & chickens (although the Giant is skilled at this too), my SPOO was selected & purchased for his unique skill set within the breed, he has guardian instincts & is working side by side with my Giant Schnauzer as body guards, estate guards, etc... So pray tell how I'd go to a shelter & select a dog with greater certainty that I will find success? I've trained shelter dogs in large numbers for free & I've seen the "surprises" that you can get. 

And aside from all of this, this is the land of the free the home of the brave, it's perfectly okay to go get your puppy from a breeder & I love that health testing is important to you. Let yourself enjoy your choice & nuts to the poo-poo-ers.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

If you think that people are being critical now about a dog, just wait until you rear a child. Please don't bother caring about what non-stakeholders think. If you and your husband agree about dog or child, then that is how things are.

Your reasoning sounds perfectly logical. And that's hard when we no longer live in a logical world.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I used to think rescue was always best when I was younger. Because we are led to believe that purebred and mixed rescues are brimming with perfect dogs that are exact matches for what families need. Our family adopted our border collie from a rescue. She was generally a good dog, though not really ideal. She did have some health issues and got bad dementia as she aged. But overall I felt it was a successful experience. And then I tried to find a dog to adopt a few years ago and I had a wildly poor experience. I learned that rescues don't like to adopt to anybody who isn't their perfect ideal candidate and they'd rather hold onto dogs for years than take chances with less than perfect homes. I also learned first hand that getting a dog with an unknown background can lead to extremely unsafe and unmanageable situations in the new home. I had multiple incredibly heart breaking experiences. It caused incredible anxiety, and depression.

After that I was not willing to try it again. My heart could not take it. I also learned that when you need something really specific, you cannot trust rescue descriptions. If you need a dog that is dog friendly, kid friendly, small animal friendly, non reactive, etc... there is no guarantee that your new rescue won't turn into your worst nightmare once they've been in your home a few months and settled in and their true personality starts to show.

I feel like I have PTSD from my experiences trying to rescue. If the perfect rescue dog drops into my lap in the future I will consider it again, but I now feel zero regrets about going with a breeder. When your life requires a dog with specific socialization and behavior, it just isn't sensible to expect that from an adopted dog with an unknown history. Even people who are super involved with rescue dogs will say this. There are plenty of great dogs in shelters. But when you need a specific type of dog to fit into the role you need, there is absolutely nothing wrong with going to an ethical preservation breeder.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Been there. I looked for a dog to adopt: must be small, safe with cats, safe with children, good with other dogs, not a terrier (I find the average terrier personality hard to live with). Any dog meeting those criteria had a waiting list half a mile long.

Cats are easier - come kitten season in normal times it is fairly easy to find happy, healthy kittens in rescue - but adoptable dogs are in extremely high demand in the UK. And here too dogs are being brought in from overseas, some with extreme fear of humans. I have nothing but admiration for those able to take on a damaged dog and, with care and love and patience, gie it a happier life, but where I live I am surrounded by children, adults, cats, dogs, farm animals, etc, etc, and I want and need animals that I can trust from the start.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I was walking Annie, lovely, pure bred Annie, who most people said was the calmest, happiest, most confident puppy they had ever met (people often thought she was a 2 year old mini poodle). A woman stopped and admired and cooed over her, age maybe 5 months? "Oh, what a nice puppy, she is so lovely. So pretty, such a nice temprament" "Thanks, she is wonderful". "What rescue did you get her from?" "None. I got her from a great CKC breeder. "
She snatched back her hand, took a big step back, and her eyes widened. It was as if responsible dog breeder shopping was contagious, and a religious heresy. She stopped admiring my puppy. People are silly and the "Thou shalt RESCUE" preaching had gotten a bit out of hand. 

First - how many purebred poodle puppies with great temperaments are in rescue in Canada? Well, you can go on a 2 + year waitlist with poodle rescue. But I would guess the answer is somewhere close to 2 per year in the entire country- most well bred poodles have a return to breeder contract, so don't end up in rescue. The dogs available are either generally old, have multiple difficult to manage health conditions, have aggression issues, or all of the above. Nicer dogs are usually rehomed to a friend or a family member long before they hit rescues. Yes, I am and will be prepared to deal with all those things if they arise with Annie, but I do believe in setting myself up for success. Many of the things I want to do with a dog (hiking, camping, dog sports, etc) are difficult to impossible with an old or sick dog, or a dog with aggression issues. 

Second - I would have qualified for basically no shelter or rescue dogs, even if I wanted one. I lived in a rented apartment with no fenced yard and worked. 4 strikes against me there.

Third - I am picky. I needed to be. I wanted a pure bred poodle since I do have allergies and was in a small apartment, no way to keep the dog out of my bedroom. I needed a small dog and cat safe dog, good with travelling, trustworthy offleash.thats a lot of asks! Even if I wasn't picky, dog are in such high demand that the local humane society imported them from the US and overseas, and they never last long. Rescues are in high enough demand that the shelter/rescue can afford high criteria. 

I am not saying I won't get a rescue in the future, most of our dogs growing up were what we called "second hand dogs" - no formal rescue, but rehomed with us to have a better life with a more suitable family. Most had some major quirks that needed working through, and would have been easier to deal with as a puppy. But the appearance of those dogs in your life can't be predicted, and for now, I wanted a dog that could do the things I wanted to do. If and when I get another "second hand dog" it will be at a very different time in my life when I can handle a young, poorly trained large breed working dog, who needs a lot more structure and a few thousand hours of training, which are the sort of rescues/rehomed that usually appeal to me. 

For your guilting friends - they can get their own rescues. One of my best friends adopted, after great difficulty getting one (months of applying for every small breed that came into the humane society), a small, older mixed breed non shedding dog. He had major food aggression, was returned to the shelter multiple time for aggression, was prone to snapping, was overweight, could barely walk, etc. She has worked wonders with him, but ... He is still not a dog I would ever trust. Now, a few years later, she has a new baby. I expect the dog will end up at her parents house once the baby begins to crawl. It's not the sort of dog you could trust to put up with a child poking it at all, and I anticipate either the dog goes, or it snaps and bites and gets put down. Your kid comes first, and if I was in your situation, I would only consider a puppy from a good breeder, or a well vetted rehome from someone you know, not a rescue. Your kid comes first. Dogs are lovely, but it's not selfish to set yourself up to have the best chance NOT to have to rehome the dog, and NOT to have to put the dog down because it snaps and bites a baby. Doing otherwise, is, IMO, irresponsible dog ownership.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I met a woman last weekend walking her newly adopted rescue spoo. This boy was a mess and his new owner is clueless. I know exactly what breeder he came from: his poor rear assembly and low arousal threshold are hallmarks of a particular breeder who has been discussed here. The breed specific rescue that adopted him out has been bailing out this high volume breeder for nearly a decade, taking in around 90-120 of her dogs each year. No wonder - the rescue charges around $500 in adoption fees for these poodles (versus $200 for their other dogs), which is a big chunk of their annual revenue. The owner of the rescue is pretty savvy when it comes to marketing. She requires potential adopters to visit in person, because it increases donations. She apparently also told the new owner that this 26" boy is a 4.5 month old moyen and show prospect. The new owner is besotted. The boy barked his head off the entire time we spoke.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Liz and others, I really hate seeing "rescues" buying puppies from mills. It is one of the best ways to keep the mills in business. The only way to shut down that chain of supply is to not allow mills to have any outlet for selling. A business that can't keep its inventory moving can't last very long, can it? So that woman you met with the new adoptee sounds like she would buy a literal lemon and the Brooklyn Bridge from a used car salesman if she met one on the curb. 

Also Raindrops you made a really good point about rescued dogs in that it can be nearly a year before a rescue trusts the permanency of his new home to really display all of their maladapted behaviors. Owners of these dogs tend to be very happy with the dog and then end up feeling they have to rehome it again because they are ill equipped to deal with behaviors they had at least had hints of from the dog's history but thought they could control or avoid just by being nice to the dog. Dogs can't really read into the story of their lives to understand why the first people gave them away so they have no clue those behaviors won't fly with the next batch of people.


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## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

It frustrates me to no end that these so-called 'rescues' buy dogs off of literal puppy mills, then point their fingers at the public and say, "no, you're the bad ones!". Sounds like passing the buck off to me.

I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center

In the end, you're still shopping when you go to these shelters. You're just shopping through a third party at a discounted price buying a broken product that allows more broken products to come in, regardless of where they were manufactured, while the place ignores and even occasionally partners with the real problem, which is the manufacturers! I just... Grr. Not too many things grind my gears, but hypocrisy is one of them. If I ever adopt, you can be sure that I'm going to be doing some snooping around to make sure the dogs are actually being rescued.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I feel its strange to ask people to decide first whether they want to rescue or go to a breeder. You need to understand first what you want in a dog and then contemplate whether you are more likely to find that in a rescue or with a breeder. 

I tried to rescue for about 7months before contacting breeders. I don't regret that at all, the situation that I was in pre-covid meant that it would have been rather irresponsible of me to get a 8 week old puppy unless I would have paid for a puppy nanny for 8 hours a day. For me trying to get an adult rescue rather than finding a breeder for a puppy was very much the responsible thing to do. However, the process was more disappointing I have to say. I had my guard up when looking for breeders and I didn't have the same hesitations when interacting with non-profits and had some disappointing experiences. 

My situation has changed, I am getting a puppy from a fantastic breeder next May and I will be home with it pretty much 24/7. But I want to make it clear that although I was technically unsuccessful in getting a rescue that is not a bad thing. It is also not a bad thing when I would visit sometimes and found that nearly all of the dogs were extremely challenging dogs. This means that most dogs are not being abandoned unless absolutely necessary. This is success! I don't want to have my pick of nicely behaved and sweet natured little dogs in the shelter because that means that they are in need of help! 

Plus people don't have to pick which camp they want to be in and stay in it forever. I will definately look at rescues again in the future, my requirements will change as my life changes. I can definately see myself adopting a little old senior dog one day, its just not practically and financially a good idea with our current lifestyle.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I will say that our experience with poodle rescue cannot be generalized to other breeds, and this is a part of the nuance required when talking about breeding and adoption. I know here in the southeastern US, there are lovely hunting breeds, including English Springer Spaniels, that are abandoned in the woods for not hunting. When found, they're often transported to the NE for adoption. Many of them have lovely personalities and are free of long-term health concerns. Poodles, especially standard poodles, are differently situated, where demand grossly exceeds supply, and very few wind up in rescue. The ones that do show up in rescue usually have the health and temperament problems we've already discussed.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

@Liz makes an excellent point. Breeder vs Rescue debate doesn't really make sense without specifics. It depends so much on the availability in your area and the kind of dog/breed that you are looking for. 

The same goes for breeders though. I would rather pick another breed and get a havenese or lowchen than go to a bad poodle breeder. I would also always go to a shelter or a rescue rather than doing business with a puppymill or BYB. If a persons tells me that they won't spend more than 500 euro on the dog then I always say you have to rescue, there is no way you are finding an ethical breeder for that.


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## AliFenrisMom (Sep 14, 2020)

FloofyPoodle said:


> It frustrates me to no end that these so-called 'rescues' buy dogs off of literal puppy mills, then point their fingers at the public and say, "no, you're the bad ones!". Sounds like passing the buck off to me.
> 
> I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
> Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center
> ...


FloofyPoodle, that article was eye opening. I've never heard if that before, you always hear that rescues and shelters are good places to go. Though when I first started researching about dogs, reading about how shelters have to fly in dogs from other countries to meet the demand during COVID for shelter dogs sounded crazy too.


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## Jenna2020 (Jul 28, 2020)

As someone who holds rescue near and dear to my heart, I have to clarify a few things. With my rescue, we mostly do small special needs or senior dogs. So I don't get as many applications as rescue who have younger dogs I am sure. But I haven't ever said no to someone just based on the fact they rent or live in an apartment. Or just on the basis they have kids or are older. I never make a profit on the dogs, and in fact have gone it to debt to help the dogs. I am small so don't get many donations at all. I do it because I just love seniors and can't stand the thought of them in a shelter without someone to love them. I am sure there are some rescues who are in it to flip dogs and get money, but most are not. It is a tremendous amount of work doing rescue and at times I have wanted to just stop because I felt so frazzled and stressed. You have to deal with unknows, and medical issues and behaviour issues and no money sometimes. I have had dogs come in totally bald from infections, with bladder stones, blind, deaf ,scared. I had one dog that didn't move for about 2 months and had to be carried in and out of the house. She is now with a family and actually enjoys walks! You have to deal with transport and home visits and people getting angry you even charge an adoption fee. Like I said before I have only had a few dogs with serious behaviour issues I was worried about. I am not doing rescue now as the virus has made things difficult. But I will eventually get back into it. I do not feel guilty about having Niko, and I think if people want to go to a good breeder they definitely should. But I can also see why rescue people get stressed and want people to adopt a rescue. Because we see so many dogs that desperately want someone to love them. I had a dog last year come in who was 15 years old and blind and deaf. She was a toy poodle. The owner turned her in because he didn't want an old dog. And she was one of the lucky ones, at least she had a good life until that point. My little one did not and her teeth were so rotten by the time she came into rescue they all had to be pulled.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I watched an adoption event at a local pet box-store. They had a Pit Bull mix that I heard 8 different stories based on the potential person who might adopt her. The dog was about as impressed as I was. The manager of the store caught me & asked if I might be interested in doing some walk arounds with dogs & see if I could get a read on a couple of dogs. The first was the one the manager said, "I don't care what the rescue says, the dog seems aggressive." The manager was right about the dog, wrong about the Pit Mix. The pit wasn't aggressive, she just had a low threshold for silliness. If you talked to her, treated her like a friend... she was great. If you started talking baby-talk or acting silly or exaggerated with her, she looked irritated & wanted nothing to do with the person. (I used to feel that way about adults when I was a very small child). I was lucky enough to help the Pit find a home with a grizzly fellow who was no nonsense & after he adopted her, I walked him through basic obedience which I'd trained with her in the store, spooky smart dog. The man picked it up as quickly as his new dog. Last time I saw them, they were made for each other.

Some rescues have a really good set of people to evaluate & work with the dogs. Others have people who are certain they have answers but they're not grounded in reality. That's what happened in this event. They were just telling people what they wanted to hear to get the dogs homes. That's not cool.


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## Thomazine (Aug 9, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> After that I was not willing to try it again. My heart could not take it. I also learned that when you need something really specific, you cannot trust rescue descriptions. If you need a dog that is dog friendly, kid friendly, small animal friendly, non reactive, etc... there is no guarantee that your new rescue won't turn into your worst nightmare once they've been in your home a few months and settled in and their true personality starts to show.


We tried to adopt a young dog from a rescue several years. The rescue promised us that the dog was 'great with kids'. As soon as we brought the dog home, it was clear that she was very reactive, displaying serious resource-guarding and had an intense fear of men. Two days in, she slipped the leash and leapt over the couch to bite my first grader. It was utterly unprovoked; I'd been really careful to manage their interactions.

We got a canine behavioral specialist to evaluate her who told us that a) she was not a puppy, she was probably three or four, b) she did indeed have a lot of behavioral issues which would take considerable time and resources to work through, and c) she might never be safe around our children. It was just a heartbreaking experience. I think we could have possibly worked with her if we didn't have children in the home, but we did. We took her back to the rescue, who didn't want to hear about the bite (which went through our kid's pants and left deep bruising). They put her straight back up on the website as 'great with kids' the very next day. She was utterly set up to fail by them.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If you really want to get yourself feeling dazed and confused about the dog selling industry read The Dog Merchants by Kim Kavin. I find it very tough reading so I end up reading a chapter and then putting it aside for a while. You will find yourself hating the concept of a dog auction at one moment and then thinking there are some aspects of quality checks along the way that sound okay at some level. My real bottom line POV though is that no such chain of wholesale marketing should exist if we really want to reduce the number of dogs looking for forever homes.

Thomazine that is a very sad story and I am afraid not all that uncommon. Poor you and poor little doggo.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

To return to the original poster, for what it's worth, I asked my retired psychologist husband why people try to decide for others where to get a dog. His theory is that it's a way to publicly proclaim their own virtue. 

And he says one good response is "It's always interesting to hear your point of view" then move the conversation on. Never justify your decision because that leaves it open to discussion.

Keep in mind that the man in question is retired and mostly practices his wiles on Normie and me.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Since we talked about choosing the RIGHT dog for the home and since I seem to need to get some of my own aggression out... 

I mentioned my rehome/rescue kryptonite dogs are the young working breeds who need a decent home. 

In related ish news, there is someone on a local buy and sell offering a 7 mo Dutch Shepherd. "Rare" brindle (brindle is in breed standard). "For sale or for trade for a small puppy". 

I am not against people rehoming a dog if they realize they are not a right fit, but to try and trade it in on a newer model? Blood boiling. There is a small breed adult dog in some of the pictures, you can bet whoever chose the breed didn't think past "cool tough puppy" and into "will it fit my lifestyle?" Nothing about the dog, the training, the personality, just the price paid and wanted and the vet stuff included. The comments on the post are outraged, too, and it has quickly been taken down. Mom showed me the ad since she knows I love shepherds, and I went through my laundry list of reasons why I can't own the dog. But, see, I HAVE a laundry list of conditions that my life must pass, before I can have a dog like that, or, really, any other dog. I don't just blindly go out and get one, then rehome it when it becomes inconvenient. 

Anyway- my two cents are, back to original topic. If you are doing your best to choose a dog that is RIGHT for your home, and give it the training and socialization that it needs to make sure it has a good start, and a good home even if something unthinkable happens and you need to rehome it, then you are doing a whole bunch to address the problem of shelter dogs.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Great advice from your personal psychologist, Dianaleez! It seems to be called “virtue signaling”now instead of “guilt trip”, but the effect is the same. Someone other than you, knows best. Nonsense! We’re a one dog household, and I get to choose what that one dog will be. 

I have a friend who had s revolving door of Golden Retriever rescues. She spent thousands on everyone of them. She would take the seniors, the sads,and was rewarded with heartbreak after all of her efforts. I fell in love with one in the parade of Golden’s, a handsome senior named Waldo. When she told me, he had to be euthanized it broke my heart, for both of them. Eventually, she couldn’t bear the toll of losses from seniors and adopted a young Heinz 57 mix, Daisy, whom she jogs with every day. I did ask her, before Daisy, if she might consider a breeder. Didn’t press it, because she was so anxious for the next fixer upper, bless her heart. Sincerely, for extreme rescue and rehabilitation. Not me. No excuses, no shame for buying from a breeder.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> "What rescue did you get her from?" "None. I got her from a great CKC breeder. "
> She snatched back her hand, took a big step back, and her eyes widened. It was as if responsible dog breeder shopping was contagious, and a religious heresy.





lily cd re said:


> He asked me what rescue I got them from and I said they were from 2 different responsible breeders. He sneared at me and walked away.



Those strangers are good examples of the _Cancel Culture_ mentality. People think and live differently and want different things. The CC crowd can't abide by this and be quite rude and reject others completely over a few differences. They are a nuisance. 



Panamint Daisy said:


> I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound.


Ah well, close friends and family with different values should be able to express them, otherwise the relationship is based on a lie where you never know what they think or why. They feel what they feel, which is legit. 

Best you can do in cases like this, whether the topic is poodles, politics or career choices, is nod to sympathetically and say something like, _"I respect your feelings and appreciate you for sharing them with me, but I've thought through this and it's what I really want/ like/ believe/ plan to do. I'm not going to change my mind."_ 

And like a big Thanksgiving dinner conversation that is headed for a power struggle over whose right and whose wrong, change the subject.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Just ask: Where did you get those darling shoes? mukluks? socks with farting cats?

There's always something.


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## Ollie’smom (Oct 22, 2020)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


I totally agree and understand everything you are saying. I went through the same thing with my second spoo who has recently turned 2. My niece was so upset she actually stopped speaking to me for several months. 
It is a personal choice, and it is your choice to make, not anyone else’s. It’s like our religion, our politics and who we voted for president. No one should judge or ridicule you for your own choices.
Best of luck to you and your new puppy!


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## cosmo77 (Apr 14, 2017)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


I now what you mean, I got the same stuff adopt dpn't shop... Pfff I love my spoos and like you want a healthy and happy pup which leads to a stable fun loving HEALTHY Adult! You go girl!


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

I have not read through the replies to this thread.

In my opinion, you need to do what is right for your family. There are very few poodles in rescues in my area. The ones that are, have a bite history ( probably due to poor breeding) or are all very senior ( I love older dogs. but it is hard to say good-bye).

I have a friend that is very pro rescue. She has spent over 12K on health issues this year, on one rescue dog ( she has a few). The dog is poorly socialized and has behavior problems due to this. He is not an easy dog to live with. She is not very bonded with the dog. 

My Sammy did not come from a great breeder, but not a bad one either. I got very lucky. When making a (hopefully) 20 year commitment, I want the best dog possible.

I applaud the people that give rescue dogs a loving home. For me, it is too expensive and I have young grandchildren that visit regularly. I want to stack my deck of getting the most chance of an even tempered dog. 

If backyard breeders, puppy mills and people that aquire a puppy on a whim were stopped, there would be many less adolescent/young adult dogs looking for a home, after they developed problem behaviors.


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## Yojimbo64 (Jan 23, 2020)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


A lot of great responses here. What I'm going to add has mostly already been stated; I have a friend who is very opinionated about rescuing. She is committed to her stance and won't consider any other views. She has rescued numerous dogs over the years and is a terrific dog mom. However, my situation is my situation. And I determined (20 years ago when I got my first poodle) that getting a dog from a great breeder, where I could meet the mother if not other relatives, see pictures of the dad, was the right process for me. It worked out; I had Mike, an amazing dog for 16 years. Last summer I decided it was time to dive back in. I researched breeders, went to a couple of dog shows to meet people, found the breeder I wanted to get a dog from in October, and waited for Joey, who was born in March, and I picked up in June. She's a spectacular puppy. Looks like a champion, has that great poodle prance, and most important, has a really terrific disposition. Doesn't mean you can't get the best dog in the world from a rescue, but it gives you a little information about the animal before you commit to a 15 year relationship. So I don't engage in a tug of war about this; I already know it is the right decision for me. And it's a free country mostly. Everyone has the right to do as they please.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


I went thru this recently as well. The adoption application is long and detailed ordeal. A lot of what you describe is accurate. I did go out to one small rescue and found the woman who founded it to be extremely self centered, judgemental and frankly, incapable of correcting behavioral issues. Her only qualification, that I saw, was to be able to house many dogs. She advertised 4 dogs for adoption but actually had more than 20 dogs (serious behavioral issues). They all wear collars that she uses to zap them remotely if they exhibit a bad behavior. They are crated like a dog pound. Her yard smells like poop. She lets them aggressively group play (4 at a time or more) which promotes more dog aggression and she brags how she is approved to rescue dangerous dog breeds. Then,there are rescues who want "i's" dotted and "t's" crossed and won't approve an application for impertinent reasons. Out of 20+ apps, we heard back from about 6. The most straight forward, affordable, wanting to find good homes were the Animal Control Officers, in multi States as well. Detailed apps but not unrealistic hoops to jump through. The largest number of dogs and pups were adopted or in a rescue cross country. Breeders waiting lists are quite long these days as well. Prices have skyrocketed and Vet fees have as well. Still, do your research but don't feel guilty. You're looking for a family member. These "yapper" friends aren't living under your roof or in your shoes. If they don't like your choice. It's their problem. Be happy and safe. Hope you find a perfect pup for you.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

FloofyPoodle said:


> I read this piece a while ago and it shook up what I thought things were supposed to be like. I was upset for a couple days.
> Detailed Discussion of Dog Auctions and Retail Rescue | Animal Legal & Historical Center


Very eye opening article! 
"[Rescuers] are all usually well-intentioned. Their thinking is that any dog taken out of the trade is a worthwhile purchase, but the reality is that paying .... breeders and millers facilitates and grows the practice they are trying to eradicate."

I see no reason to encourage people to not neuter their dogs and allow them to mate indiscriminately. And then often make a profit off of it by selling 'cute' puppies. And I want a dog I can train from the beginning. It is much easier than trying to re-train bad habits out of a dog someone doesn't want and gives up.



Dianaleez said:


> ...asked " my retired psychologist husband why people try to decide for others where to get a dog. His theory is that it's a way to publicly proclaim their own virtue.
> 
> And he says one good response is "It's always interesting to hear your point of view" then move the conversation on. Never justify your decision because that leaves it open to discussion.


Great answer!



Panamint Daisy said:


> " But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" ....
> Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


My first reaction was "Why on earth did you tell them how much you are paying for a dog?" I can just imagine their reaction.

I discovered after owning 3 wonderful dogs that I adopted from others that I had allergies to dogs. I needed to find a dog for a service dog and did not want to take allergy meds for the next 18 or so years. I tried for months finding a good prospect from either 'the pound' or a poodle rescue, and they never had any. They either had problems or were gone before I even saw them. I am so glad they didn't have any that worked as that way I found a great breeder and have an awesome Spoo! If I get another dog I will be doing the same thing again for sure. But I won't be telling family or most friends ahead of time as I know their advice would just be a bother.


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## wingsandpaws (Oct 28, 2020)

I had experience with this too, in a way. The breeder I got Mia from was a rehoming because the old owner of Mia gave her back. Even my teachers reacted like “Why did you buy?” Like it was the worst decision I made. I have since gotten over that. There are no poodles for adoption in my country, none. Only occassional rehomings, but they’re very rare. I was lucky to come across Mia. I wanted a specific breed for my first dog so that I would know what to expect, also because someone who frequently visits my home has a mild case of allergy to non-hypoallergenic dogs. Mia is the best and I do not regret my decision. Don’t let people guilt-trip you.


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## Menina (Jul 16, 2016)

Grow up, please. Don’t let other people’s opinions define who you are or how you feel. Be strong with your convictions. You can thank your friends for sharing their perspective with you can kindly inform them that your priorities are different. Celebrate differences in opinion and that you have a wide circle of diverse friends.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.



i am a senior dog owner. Meaning I am the old one, not the dog....lol. There is a dog out there for everyone. Some people have the time and ability to work with rescue dogs, and that is wonderful. I have both rescued and breeder purchased in my life. And there are people out there that don’t want to be bothered with puppies, and that is o.k. too. Adult dogs are great, but they also need time to adjust to a new home. So, for anyone to express to anyone what type of pet they should or should not have shows you who they are as a person. It is YOUR choice what is best for you and your family, not theirs. I am glad you made the best choice for you.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Where do all those only get a rescue people think the dogs they find come from? Some sort of breeding right...
> 
> Personally I never bother getting involved with people like that. I once had a guy in Lowes come up to talk to Lily and Javelin. He asked me what rescue I got them from and I said they were from 2 different responsible breeders. He sneared at me and walked away. Good riddance I say!
> 
> ...


You are spot on. I have seen every situation you described, don't even get me started on rescue dogs that, sadly, just need to be euthanized. Have a cousin with some of those dogs, they are a danger to every visitor due to unprovoked biting.

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

twyla said:


> My standard answer is "I am allergic to dogs, this is one of the few dogs I can have, are you saying I cannot have a dog?"
> Honestly it's none of their business, not their choice, so don't try to justify it to them, do what is best for you and your family and find the best breeder and get your pup.


Exactly our situation. Severe allergies should not disqualify people from the joy of dogs. Not that you should have to justify your choices, but I have a zinger that leaves those judgemental snobs breathless. "We chose to open our home to more than 2 dozen teenagers in need of a loving family home over the span of 30 years. I think we've done our fair share of rescue"

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Starla said:


> When I was younger it bothered me more, but quite frankly I’m too old to be guilt tripped.
> 
> My first childhood dog was a cocker spaniel schnauzer mix, Charlie. He was such a sweetheart. Then came Rusty, who we found in the classifieds free. A true mutt. His mom (who had just shown up at someone’s house in the country) was a nondescript brown dog. Rusty was a fun childhood dog also. Then I went to college were my boyfriend (now husband) adopted Emily, a “red-bone coonhound” from the shelter. There is no way she had any kind of hound in her whatsoever, but she was red, sooo. Then a year later Zoe, a JRT mix most likely, that showed up at a family friends work. Good hearted family friend took her in but didn’t have the dog-sense to handle a 6 month old JRT so I got her. Then Diego about 5 years later from the pound and Jack the year after that from a rescue. Diego’s results are below (I wish we’d been able to get them for the girls!), and Jack was a bull terrier.
> 
> So no. I don’t have any guilt about my purebred poodle puppy that I’ve always wanted. I refuse to let anybody make me feel bad for making what I believe is the best choice for my family. It’s not just adults in this house anymore, and I need to know what I’m getting into. There was a time I adopted from the shelter, as well as fostered litters of newborn puppies and kittens, and I’m positive there will be a time for it in the future, but that time is not now for us. Diego is still with us at 13.5, and is and always has been the most bomb proof dog ever. New pup Starla will fit perfectly into our family, which I know because I know what we can handle and what we can expect.


What a lovely story. We were homestay parents for 27 teens who needed a stable family over the span of 30 years. Rescue work can take many forms. I agree with your reasoning. Now, with a little grandson, I feel I deserve a non allergenic, sane and safe dog I can absolutely trust in all situations 

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I was walking Annie, lovely, pure bred Annie, who most people said was the calmest, happiest, most confident puppy they had ever met (people often thought she was a 2 year old mini poodle). A woman stopped and admired and cooed over her, age maybe 5 months? "Oh, what a nice puppy, she is so lovely. So pretty, such a nice temprament" "Thanks, she is wonderful". "What rescue did you get her from?" "None. I got her from a great CKC breeder. "
> She snatched back her hand, took a big step back, and her eyes widened. It was as if responsible dog breeder shopping was contagious, and a religious heresy. She stopped admiring my puppy. People are silly and the "Thou shalt RESCUE" preaching had gotten a bit out of hand.
> 
> First - how many purebred poodle puppies with great temperaments are in rescue in Canada? Well, you can go on a 2 + year waitlist with poodle rescue. But I would guess the answer is somewhere close to 2 per year in the entire country- most well bred poodles have a return to breeder contract, so don't end up in rescue. The dogs available are either generally old, have multiple difficult to manage health conditions, have aggression issues, or all of the above. Nicer dogs are usually rehomed to a friend or a family member long before they hit rescues. Yes, I am and will be prepared to deal with all those things if they arise with Annie, but I do believe in setting myself up for success. Many of the things I want to do with a dog (hiking, camping, dog sports, etc) are difficult to impossible with an old or sick dog, or a dog with aggression issues.
> ...


Wow, have had your exact experiences! Spent 2 years on a poodle rescue wait list. Was sneered at because we did not have a big fenced yard. Every dog offered had serious $$$ medical issues, aggressive temperament. Finally bought from an established breeder. Adore our Charlie 

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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I figure we have done our part with rescues: we have a Lab, a Chihuahua, and a border collie/whippet - all three are from the shelter. And then there is Zoe, the miniature poodle, the life of the party. She is from a well-known breeder (Betty Brown, Donnchada). 

I am the treasurer and the breeder referral person for our local poodle club. I get phone calls and emails just about every day from people looking for a poodle in rescue. We have not had a poodle in rescue for several years - people just don't dump them off. The last time we had some rescue poodles is when a club member died unexpectedly and we had to help place her dogs.


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## Judy David (Jan 19, 2020)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


It is great if you want to adopt a rescue, BUT you have a right to your own feelings and reasons for getting a pure-bred dog from a reputable breeder. Those people who get mad at you for not doing the "correct thing" would not understand a fact if it hit them in the face. All of your reasons, though you should not have to prove those to anyone else, are spot on anyway. Good luck.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

A nice sounding woman called my club today to ask about training for an adolescent golden doodle adopted from from a town (public) shelter. We talked for a few minutes during which it came to light that this dog resource guards the person I was talking to against other dogs and there are many dogs in the extended family. The dog is only about 8-9 months old. I told her this was a dangerous problem (she already understood that). I recommended that her first work should be with a behaviorist and gave her the name of one person I really like as well as the CCPDT website and noted she wanted a CBCC-KA not a CPDT-KA. I also told her to make sure she connected with someone today!

I guess my reply could be here or in the current doodle conversation.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> A nice sounding woman called my club today to ask about training for an adolescent golden doodle adopted from from a town (public) shelter. We talked for a few minutes during which it came to light that this dog resource guards the person I was talking to against other dogs and there are many dogs in the extended family. The dog is only about 8-9 months old. I told her this was a dangerous problem (she already understood that). I recommended that her first work should be with a behaviorist and gave her the name of one person I really like as well as the CCPDT website and noted she wanted a CBCC-KA not a CPDT-KA. I also told her to make sure she connected with someone today!
> 
> I guess my reply could be here or in the current doodle conversation.


That lady is lucky she was able to get help from you. A potentially dangerous situation 

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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> A nice sounding woman called my club today to ask about training for an adolescent golden doodle adopted from from a town (public) shelter. We talked for a few minutes during which it came to light that this dog resource guards the person I was talking to against other dogs and there are many dogs in the extended family. The dog is only about 8-9 months old. I told her this was a dangerous problem (she already understood that). I recommended that her first work should be with a behaviorist and gave her the name of one person I really like as well as the CCPDT website and noted she wanted a CBCC-KA not a CPDT-KA. I also told her to make sure she connected with someone today!
> 
> I guess my reply could be here or in the current doodle conversation.


That lady is lucky she was able to get in touch 

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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I also believe, it’s fair to say you tried but couldn’t find the perfect fit for your family from any local shelters. I volunteered at a private, no kill shelter for over a year and was not tempted by any of our residents. I looked at what was available from the public and private shelters when my last Scottie passed. They had pit bulls, pit bull crosses, and a lot of sad Chihuahuas/ crosses. I didn’t know about breed rescues at the time, but after my friend’s experience with Golden’s, hard pass.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Mfmst said:


> I didn’t know about breed rescues at the time, but after my friend’s experience with Golden’s, hard pass.


Mfst, do you mind my asking what kind of trouble your friends had with a golden retriever? I was under the impression they were fabulous dogs, despite some health issues.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

They are fabulous, well bred, in their prime. My friend had to have a GR and took whatever the rescue had available. That meant they were older and she had to deal with very expensive health issues within a year or two. She was adamant that she wanted an older dog, not a puppy. She brought each and everyone of those Golden’s into peak condition, paid enormous vet bills along the way, and then they eventually had to be euthanized. I think it was unfair that she never got a younger adult GR from the rescue. I’m glad Waldo and all the others had a great last chapter, but it was emotionally and medically very costly. From her experience, I wouldn’t take an older poodle from a poodle rescue. She was lucky none of them had behavioral issues at least.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Yep, Goldens are marvellous when well-bred. The ones around here are neurotic messes. It's heartbreaking.

I watched a young one try to climb out of the dog park in terror. None of the other dogs were even going near him. He finally managed to hide under a picnic table.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Good to know, Mfmst and PtP, thanks for the input. My sister was interested in a GR so I've been doing some research into them out of curiosity.


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## Thomazine (Aug 9, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yep, Goldens are marvellous when well-bred. The ones around here are neurotic messes. It's heartbreaking.
> 
> I watched a young one try to climb out of the dog park in terror. None of the other dogs were even going near him. He finally managed to hide under a picnic table.


I have a friend with a goldendoodle which has killed two sheep which got into their yard (they're next to a farm). He's also nearly killed a cat. It's all terror-aggression according to her; he's afraid of everything. I have never in all my days heard of a poodle tearing out the throat of livestock, so I'm guessing it's the retriever in him..?!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thomazine said:


> I have never in all my days heard of a poodle tearing out the throat of livestock, so I'm guessing it's the retriever in him..?!


Wow, that's crazy. Incidentally I've had two retriever mixes ("oops litters" picked up from farms) and they both had aggression issues...

My next dog will be a well-bred, pure-bred poodle from an excellent breeder.


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## Pytheis (Sep 17, 2019)

Thomazine said:


> I have never in all my days heard of a poodle tearing out the throat of livestock, so I'm guessing it's the retriever in him..?!


Or it’s just a nasty mix of genetics or an unstable dog because golden retrievers are not known to do that either. In fact, it’s the opposite. Have you ever heard of the famous soft golden mouth? They were bred to retrieve birds without damaging the goods. Definitely not dogs that (when stable) harm livestock.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Thomazine said:


> I have a friend with a goldendoodle which has killed two sheep which got into their yard (they're next to a farm). He's also nearly killed a cat. It's all terror-aggression according to her; he's afraid of everything. I have never in all my days heard of a poodle tearing out the throat of livestock, so I'm guessing it's the retriever in him..?!


I've never heard of terror aggression describing prey drive. I am quite skeptical. I don't think that's correct for either breed. Most likely it's the result of a very poorly bred dog with a very poor temperament that doesn't match either breed standard.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Raindrops said:


> I've never heard of terror aggression describing prey drive. I am quite skeptical. I don't think that's correct for either breed. Most likely it's the result of a very poorly bred dog with a very poor temperament that doesn't match either breed standard.


My sister in law has a sheep herd. Believe me, the sight of ewes with their throats ripped out is not pretty. That dog is simply a killer. Once they get a taste for blood, they need to be put down because they cannot be trusted and will kill again at every opportunity 

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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

For pete's sake, it is none of their business where you get anything. I used to have people ask if my whippets were rescues (hey, I like big; assume they thought they were greyhounds : ) ). I want healthy, therefore i go to a breeder. And adopt, don't shop...pfft. You are still CHOOSING which dog, hence "shopping". no?


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

"adopt dont shop" doesn't make since either lmfao.

unless you blindly pick up a dog out of the shelter you are shopping too


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## hrsldy (Oct 8, 2019)

I too have felt shunned by some for buying a SPOO pup from a breeder. Those that know me well know that I have had (and still have 2) several rescues through my lifetime. Most have worked out fine. Had the most problems with a 3 year old Greyhound. First off, I wanted a non shedding puppy. I did not want a puppy that had already been spayed/neutered at 8 weeks old. I do feel bad sometimes that I am judged badly for my choice but I am happy with my SPOO.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Thomazine said:


> I have a friend with a goldendoodle which has killed two sheep which got into their yard (they're next to a farm). He's also nearly killed a cat. It's all terror-aggression according to her; he's afraid of everything. I have never in all my days heard of a poodle tearing out the throat of livestock, so I'm guessing it's the retriever in him..?!


Um. That is terrifying. I don't know this for sure, but I suspect many behaviour experts would recommend euthanasia for a dog like that. At the very least, he would have to be muzzled. What a sad existence he must have. His brain can't be right.  Poodles were bred for retrieving, too. Retrieving instinct would have absolutely nothing to do with killing sheep.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Ugh. I just have to get this off my chest: I am visiting my hometown this weekend, and over the last 2 days, I've seen 3 friends who have all sounded just so disappointed when I tell them we are planning to get our future dog from a breeder, as opposed to a shelter or rescue or pound. I have explained my reasoning to them, about wanting a puppy from health-tested parents from a responsible, ethical breeder, and how we are nervous about a rescue dog with an unknown background, largely because we have a baby under a year old at home, and live very rurally. We contacted and met with a Spoo breeder a few months ago, were impressed with her, her dogs, and her home where the pups are raised. A litter we are interested in was just born last week and will be ready to go home in January. (So I am very excited!!) Obviously adopting any dog is a huge responsibility and commitment, and going to a good breeder means there is a price tag to match, which we are willing to pay for a healthy dog from healthy parents who are treated well. But still my friends are like, "There are so many puppies and dogs who will be great family pets whom you can rescue," or "Three thousand dollars for a DOG? You're crazy!" Yes, I feel like I'm nuts for paying so much when there are so many free or cheap rescue dogs, BUT my gut tells me that now is not the time to rescue a dog with an unknown background. I should note that none of these friends have small children to worry about. And sure, if I didn't have children, my husband and I would absolutely want to adopt from a shelter. I researched shelter dogs for a couple months before we decided to go the breeder route -- every time we found a dog that looked like a good match, there was some issue: it was listed as not good with cats (we have a cat), or not good with kids, or not good with YOUNG kids, or couldn't be adopted out of state, or the rescue agency never got back to me, or the dog had already been adopted when I called! We live very rurally and the closest small city is 70 miles away, the closest major city is over 100 miles away. Not really conducive to looking at shelters to meet animals before we commit to taking a dog home. Anyway, I'm tired of always having to justify to my friends and family why we're going the breeder route as opposed to rescuing. Has anyone else had this experience too? Thanks for reading my rant.


I'm so sorry you're having to deal with being judged! It really isn't anyone's business. You need to get a dog that works best for your family! Especially since you have a small child. Getting a dog is a huge commitment and getting a rescue can be an even bigger one if they have a history of trauma. Plus when did it become a terrible thing to go to a responsible breeder? 

My first two spoos were rescues and they had their fair share of baggage. My senior spoo passed away this summer and I've decided to go to a breeder for my next dog. My five year old rescue has a lot of emotional trauma that we are still working through even though we have had her for three years. Once my other spoo passed away a lot of her anxiety resurfaced. One of my friends was very judgmental about my decision to go to a breeder, even though she's never even had dogs herself and she constantly talks about how annoying her sister's rescued dog is because he has extreme anxiety. Most people just don't understand! But I absolutely get where you are coming from with feeling guarded and having to justify your decision, it's so annoying!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Not sure how we got onto Goldens. However, for the last 10 years every single person I know who has had a Golden has lost them to cancer. Not sure if this is inbreeding, or what, but they are unfortunately gaining a reputation for being 'cancer dogs'. While alive they do seem to be very loving and lovable!


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## Panamint Daisy (Oct 15, 2020)

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts. I really appreciate the support. Thank you for the links to articles and book references as well. This forum is excellent for furthering my education. I have "The Dog Merchants" book on order because of this thread.

News: We put down a deposit with a responsible breeder today in hopes of a pup from a litter set to go home in January 2021. One step closer!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Thank you to everyone for taking the time to share your thoughts. I really appreciate the support. Thank you for the links to articles and book references as well. This forum is excellent for furthering my education. I have "The Dog Merchants" book on order because of this thread.
> 
> News: We put down a deposit with a responsible breeder today in hopes of a pup from a litter set to go home in January 2021. One step closer!


Awesome!

A note on Dog Merchants... while I found it an interesting book, I did not care for the author's conclusions. They seem to ascribe to the idea that dog breeds are superficial and breed differences are nothing more than cosmetic. I vehemently disagree with this. They seem to be peddling this idea in favor of adopt-don't-shop ideas. So... while I think it's a good read, I would still form your own ideas about things.


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## Panamint Daisy (Oct 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Awesome!
> 
> A note on Dog Merchants... while I found it an interesting book, I did not care for the author's conclusions. They seem to ascribe to the idea that dog breeds are superficial and breed differences are nothing more than cosmetic. I vehemently disagree with this. They seem to be peddling this idea in favor of adopt-don't-shop ideas. So... while I think it's a good read, I would still form your own ideas about things.


Thanks for your thoughts! Sounds like this would be a good book to discuss in a book club. 

Speaking of which, does PF ever have book club picks and discussions? I'd be up for that.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

I'd be up for that as well!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Speaking of which, does PF ever have book club picks and discussions? I'd be up for that.


Not yet, but it sounds like a cool idea. We can take it into a side chat if it's something you are serious about.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Not yet, but it sounds like a cool idea. We can take it into a side chat if it's something you are serious about.


I love that idea!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Why not have the Dog Merchants as the first book since it does have some points of view in it that are clearly good jumping off points for conversation? Raindrops I agree with some of the points you mention regarding the Dog Merchants. It took a long time for me to read because I found so many perspectives that I agreed and then in another chapter decided I disagreed with. Then we also have a long list of various training books ranging from Ian Dunbar books to Cesar Milan and everywhere in between.


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## Panamint Daisy (Oct 15, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Why not have the Dog Merchants as the first book since it does have some points of view in it that are clearly good jumping off points for conversation? Raindrops I agree with some of the points you mention regarding the Dog Merchants. It took a long time for me to read because I found so many perspectives that I agreed and then in another chapter decided I disagreed with. Then we also have a long list of various training books ranging from Ian Dunbar books to Cesar Milan and everywhere in between.


Sounds fantastic and Dog Merchants would be a great book to start with.

Where would we have our discussion? Make a separate thread, or do a conversation? I'm kind of new to the PF platform so will go along with whatever else people think is the best idea.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Panamint Daisy said:


> Sounds fantastic and Dog Merchants would be a great book to start with.
> 
> Where would we have our discussion? Make a separate thread, or do a conversation? I'm kind of new to the PF platform so will go along with whatever else people think is the best idea.


I would think we could make a new thread in off topic chat and start a new thread for each new book. I will start a thread with an announcement post. I will include a date for starting the discussion so that people who want to join but haven't read that book can have a chance to do so.









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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Love the idea of a book club. Maybe we could even do fiction occasionally? Love 'The Art of Racing in the Rain'.
I do have another book group and we do a monthly zoom meeting


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## Panamint Daisy (Oct 15, 2020)

kontiki said:


> Love the idea of a book club. Maybe we could even do fiction occasionally? Love 'The Art of Racing in the Rain'.
> I do have another book group and we do a monthly zoom meeting


I really like this idea. I wrote a response in this thread:









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