# Vasectomy vs Neuter? Full grown dog differences?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Javelin is (and Peeves was) intact. We don't see the same health considerations for desexing male vs. female dogs. Lily was spayed at a young age. We have had no hormone problematic behavior issues. Peeves did have some late in life prostatitis that was able to be medically managed. Javelin has had no health problems. Neither of them marking problems, desire to wander and no pestering after Lily. If I was really set on a decision other than leaving them intact it would be to desex (and would be based in indicated medical or behavioral concerns). I would not find a vasectomy to be useful We can train for issues related to potential oops ties to prevent them entirely. I should also note that there have been no gastropexies for any of our dogs. Pexy only prevents torsion, not bloat and while that is a significant matter we have not had concerns about GDV since we have mitigated risks by how we feed and exercise them.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

My sister's dog (who I lived with for a few months) was intact. He was very affectionate. He had no issues with humping or marking or pestering female dogs, and great muscle tone. Adored that dog.

The only con I saw was that neutered males were more likely to be aggressive to him, and he did have a bit of a feud with a big intact German Shepherd male in the neighbourhood. Since the shepherd was also highly reactive, I don't know if it was hormones or just rude dog issues.

Where I live now, unneutered males are more common and neutered males dont seem to care as much. Maybe it's the unfamiliarity that is the issue? 

Another intact dog I know is more annoying. He wants to constantly lick female dogs backsides and eat their pee, and drool. No aggression issues, just gross. If I owned him, I would probably neuter him. But, he is lean, muscular, and athletic at age 5-6. 

I have met a few 10-15 year old unneutered males and have been surprised at how lean and fit they look. I hadn't a clue they were old until I asked. Just based on them, I am favourably inclined to leave male dogs unneuteted or a vasectomy.

One dog owned by a cousin of mine was a co own stud, who needed an emergency neuter after one of his balls twisted. I think he was 3. I don't think neutering changed his behaviour much but he did put on weight and lose some muscle tone.


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## MrsKaia (Dec 3, 2011)

In 2020 my husband and I got ourselves a standard puppy. He's 1.5 now and still intact. We too consider having him vasectomized instead of neutered. So far he's been behaving very well, so there's no rush as far as I'm concerned. No humping, no marking, snuggly, social. In the dog park he doesn't behave any different from his neutered friends. There is one intact Vizsla that likes to boss him around, but no fighting. So far it seems our dog rather avoids any altercation. Could be a young dog thing, I don't know. This is my first pup.

Before him we had a neutered standard male. Adopted him when he was 3.5. Not very snuggly but he had his moments, and he humped other dogs when you let him. He was an active athlete with good muscle tone until well in his 12th year. Very competitive. He was a little chubby when we got him, but a little less food and plenty of exercise took care of that.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

To clarify, I'd just assume leave him intact but I'm obliged to my breeder to "neuter" him. Vasectomy qualifies. His behavior now is perfectly fine. My biggest concerns with neutering him is that he may have a change in his behavior, he may put on weight, and may loose muscle mass. Not sure if any of these concerns are really valid but by doing the vasectomy, I'll know *it* (if anything) wasn't due to me neutering him.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Basically the only difference between being intact and having a vasectomy is that he can't get a bitch pregnant if he's had a vasectomy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

To add Peeves registration was open (could have been a sire with registerable litters) and Javelin's is limited (no registrations would be given to his progeny so it is just up to me to prevent that from happening. Is Elroy's registration limited?


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## Poodle2021 (Mar 14, 2021)

My dog was vasectomied at 6 months, he is now 21 months. The vasectomy led to no changes in his behavior, good or bad. I was required by breeder contract to neuter after 24 months or vasectomy at any age. I knew that we would be ‘out and about’ in the world and wanted the reassurance of no accidental breedings. My doggie daycare/boarding also allows him to come, since I am a long-standing client & he is sterile. This is a huge benefit for me when I need to leave him there.
It sounds like your list of pros and cons of each leans toward the vasectomy. I think they are a fantastic option and would recommend it. It has almost no downsides for your situation compared to your list of possible negatives from a neuter.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> To add Peeves registration was open (could have been a sire with registerable litters) and Javelin's is limited (no registrations would be given to his progeny so it is just up to me to prevent that from happening. Is Elroy's registration limited?


Yes. Elroy has a limited registration.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Mike was 7 in this pic. Back in the day we had our doggos neutered at 6 months, so it had been a while without those hormones. He looks pretty buff here, imo. ❤

Weight and condition is probably as much if not more a function of feeding and exercise than neuter status. We were regular visitors at off leash parks, including the park here with the pond.


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## Nana06 (Oct 18, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> Pexy only prevents torsion, not bloat and while that is a significant matter we have not had concerns about GDV since we have mitigated risks by how we feed and exercise them.


Hi - (sorry Tom I know this is off topic), could you please let me know how you mitigate risks with exercise? I only know how to mitigate risks by using slow feeder bowls and stuff like that 

As for the main question in this feed, if Elroy has no behavioural "issues" at all I personally would do the vasectomy and would not neuter him as you never know how it might impact him. I would wait a few more months to be sure that nothing comes up (apparently can take up to 1.5/2 years) and then I would go for the vasectomy. If Elroy does have behavioural issues that are typically associated with sexual hormones then I would neuter him. Whilst I fully appreciate that neutering does *not always *equal to removing all "problematic" behaviours such as humping, I would take the chance and hope for the best as you contractually need to make him sterile anyways.

Personally, after having discussed this for hours with the vet, I have decided to give temporary neutering implants a try when W is old enough. I don't know if that's something the breeder would also accept/ nor whether this is something you are okay with.
Suprelorin® - Reversable Chemical Castration / Neutering Implant for dogs | Virbac - I just want to avoid surgery if I can at this point.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> To clarify, I'd just assume leave him intact but I'm obliged to my breeder to "neuter" him. Vasectomy qualifies. His behavior now is perfectly fine. My biggest concerns with neutering him is that he may have a change in his behavior, he may put on weight, and may loose muscle mass. Not sure if any of these concerns are really valid but by doing the vasectomy, I'll know *it* (if anything) wasn't due to me neutering him.


ditto!


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Tekno is intact and overall well behaved. He very very rarely marks and no housebreaking issues. He's good around girls and doesn't show aggression towards males. He's very snuggly, velcro dog, and has nice muscle tone. I think the only "downside" is he does love his penis, and is often down there noodling around on his relaxation time. I really don't know that neutering would change that lol.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I've mentioned many times that Misha had a vasectomy at 20 months of age. He had no change in behavior from the vasectomy, but I wouldn't expect him to. He has a fabulous temperament. He is dog social and has no issue with most males, but he does require some management. He loves all females and lets them do anything they want. Males he doesn't mind but he expects them to be more respectful. This results in over-correction if he encounters a disrespectful intact adolescent male. I just recall him if I see a dog is disrespectful to him. With females he allows them to do anything, but he can sometimes be overly interested in licking them if they don't tell him off for it. Unfortunately most seem to enjoy the attention. He isn't the type to hump though. He went through a humpy period (with correction given) during adolescence but now he is more just flirtatious. So overall I would say he isn't a daycare dog but he is generally fine in multi-dog interactions.

My reasons for leaving intact...
We had a family dog that was impacted negatively by neutering. He lost all playfulness and became more grumpy. I want Misha to keep his playful temperament and i fear seeing the same effects as the previous dog. That dog displayed the same play tendencies when he was intact that I see in Misha. I also see a big difference in musculature between neutered and intact males. Misha does agility at the 16" height class and I want to protect his joints as much as possible. I believe healthy robust muscular support is very important in keeping him able to compete in the sport as he ages. I see a huge difference in the rear drive of intact males vs neutered males. Neutering late helps, but you will still see muscle loss. Luckily poodles are a breed that doesn't see huge coat effects of removing hormones though.

Interactions between males always have more tension than between males and females. I don't really see neutered males being aggressive towards Misha, but here there are so many intact males that they are used to it. I think it does change the interactions on an individual basis, but I wouldn't necessarily say that one surgical option will increase or decrease aggressive interactions. It may change which dogs they occur with.

Another thought... I would say Misha is on the dominant side. He is a proud dog that feels he should be respected. In turn he is very respectful of dogs he sees as above him in hierarchy which includes all females 😉. More submissive males would probably require less management, but I enjoy his spice too.

My general feeling is that dogs that have no major issue are fine to keep their hormones. Dogs with persistent hormonal behavioral issues may benefit from neutering. I don't like to rock the boat if it is sailing smoothly.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Nana06 said:


> Hi - (sorry Tom I know this is off topic), could you please let me know how you mitigate risks with exercise? I only know how to mitigate risks by using slow feeder bowls and stuff like that


Good topic for a thread! Go ahead and start one here:

Poodle Health

More likely to get a variety of responses that way.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Nana06 said:


> Personally, after having discussed this for hours with the vet, I have decided to give temporary neutering implants a try when W is old enough. I don't know if that's something the breeder would also accept/ nor whether this is something you are okay with.
> Suprelorin® - Reversable Chemical Castration / Neutering Implant for dogs | Virbac - I just want to avoid surgery if I can at this point.


Suprelorin is only available for ferrets in the US, and can't be used "off label" for dogs. Any vet doing so risks losing their license. It's rather a shame, since it can give you an idea of how your dog will act once/if they are surgically castrated.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> I've mentioned many times that Misha had a vasectomy at 20 months of age. He had no change in behavior from the vasectomy, but I wouldn't expect him to. He has a fabulous temperament. He is dog social and has no issue with most males, but he does require some management. He loves all females and lets them do anything they want. Males he doesn't mind but he expects them to be more respectful. This results in over-correction if he encounters a disrespectful intact adolescent male. I just recall him if I see a dog is disrespectful to him. With females he allows them to do anything, but he can sometimes be overly interested in licking them if they don't tell him off for it. Unfortunately most seem to enjoy the attention. He isn't the type to hump though. He went through a humpy period (with correction given) during adolescence but now he is more just flirtatious. So overall I would say he isn't a daycare dog but he is generally fine in multi-dog interactions.
> 
> My reasons for leaving intact...
> We had a family dog that was impacted negatively by neutering. He lost all playfulness and became more grumpy. I want Misha to keep his playful temperament and i fear seeing the same effects as the previous dog. That dog displayed the same play tendencies when he was intact that I see in Misha. I also see a big difference in musculature between neutered and intact males. Misha does agility at the 16" height class and I want to protect his joints as much as possible. I believe healthy robust muscular support is very important in keeping him able to compete in the sport as he ages. I see a huge difference in the rear drive of intact males vs neutered males. Neutering late helps, but you will still see muscle loss. Luckily poodles are a breed that doesn't see huge coat effects of removing hormones though.
> ...


Thanks for all the details!


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## Marchie's Mom (Nov 18, 2016)

I realize I'm a little late to this thread, but wanted to offer my experience. Marchie came from his breeder's first litter where she did vasectomies and ovary-sparing neuters on the puppies before they went to their new homes. I have nothing but positive things to say about the experience. Marchie is now 6 years old (today is his birthday!) and he's never exhibited any unwanted behaviors because of being neutered in this way. No marking, no unwanted advances to females, no humping. He sounds a lot like Raindrops' Misha--very social, gets along with females and neutered males splendidly. Sometimes there's a little tension with intact males, but they settle down. That's all behavioral and if the dog is under your control, it's easily dealt with. Marchie's health is excellent, he is super affectionate to virtually all humans and hyper social with dogs.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

@Marchie's Mom 
Thanks for the input! I have an initial consult scheduled for April 13th. As long as I'm not turned off by the consult, he'll be going ahead with the vasectomy in May.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

We had the consultation today with Canton Animal Hospital (CT), Dr. Goldman. My biggest concerns were with anesthesia and he checked all my boxes regarding experience, surgical monitoring, and post monitoring. The facility was spotless and I was even shown the operating room. No food after 7pm evening before, all the water he wants. Blood tests on day of surgery. Drop him off on May 24th at 8:15, (scheduled) pick up at 4pm. Today's consult was $96, the procedure is $1200. I'm very satisfied with his conduct during the interview and all my questions were answered pretty much the way I hoped he would answer them.
I completely forgot to ask about doing a gastropexy at the same time🤦‍♂️. I (just) followed up with a phone call in that regard. The Dr. wasn't immediately available and will call me back on the gastropexy. Feel free to ask more questions/provide more input.

ps: @Rose n Poos , I used your anesthesia sticky thread to put together my protocol expectations list, and he checked every box. Thanks for starting that thread!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

94Magna_Tom said:


> We had the consultation today with Canton Animal Hospital (CT), Dr. Goldman. My biggest concerns were with anesthesia and he checked all my boxes regarding experience, surgical monitoring, and post monitoring. The facility was spotless and I was even shown the operating room. No food after 7pm evening before, all the water he wants. Blood tests on day of surgery. Drop him off on May 24th at 8:15, (scheduled) pick up at 4pm. Today's consult was $96, the procedure is $1200. I'm very satisfied with his conduct during the interview and all my questions were answered pretty much the way I hoped he would answer them.
> I completely forgot to ask about doing a gastropexy at the same time🤦‍♂️. I (just) followed up with a phone call in that regard. The Dr. wasn't immediately available and will call me back on the gastropexy. Feel free to ask more questions/provide more input.
> 
> ps: @Rose n Poos , I used your anesthesia sticky thread to put together my protocol expectations list, and he checked every box. Thanks for starting that thread!


Sounds great! It's a bit more than I paid but I'd expect that with a bigger dog.

You might see if they can give you some trazadone to go home in case you need to sedate during the first few days. It's easier if they feel less inclined to be bouncing around.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I didn't ask what medicine, but he did say 10 days of pain meds would be available, but depending on how he's doing, he may be able to stop them after 5 days.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This all sounds so great, Tom. 

Pain meds are a delicate thing, in my experience, as too much can make your dog think they’re invincible. The last thing you want is Elroy overdoing it because he’s not getting any pain signals. But my guess is he’ll be feeling well pretty quickly, regardless. He’s in good hands.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

2 months update:
Wow. I can't believe it's only 8 weeks since his surgery. Seems like the distant past. 
As expected, there is no change in Elroy's behavior. Still the same playful, bubbly pooch. He still enjoys a good pillow hump before bedtime, still plays the same with his buddy Roddy, pee's and poops the same, snuggles the same. His appetite and training motivation (treats) is all the same. His weight is still 58 lbs +/-. My contract obligation is fulfilled. Generally speaking life is good! 
I've been wondering about showing for conformation now. I don't believe I will ever do it, but with a vasectomy, I see no reason why we couldn't. I know the point is to determine whether or not he's worthy of breeding, but I'm sure there are some that do it just to find out where their dog stands. Could I show him and title him for (AKC) conformation if I was so inclined?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

94Magna_Tom said:


> 2 months update:
> Wow. I can't believe it's only 8 weeks since his surgery. Seems like the distant past.
> As expected, there is no change in Elroy's behavior. Still the same playful, bubbly pooch. He still enjoys a good pillow hump before bedtime, still plays the same with his buddy Roddy, pee's and poops the same, snuggles the same. His appetite and training motivation (treats) is all the same. His weight is still 58 lbs +/-. My contract obligation is fulfilled. Generally speaking life is good!
> I've been wondering about showing for conformation now. I don't believe I will ever do it, but with a vasectomy, I see no reason why we couldn't. I know the point is to determine whether or not he's worthy of breeding, but I'm sure there are some that do it just to find out where their dog stands. Could I show him and title him for (AKC) conformation if I was so inclined?


So glad he is doing great! You would need to have full registration on him to enter akc conformation. If you have limited, you could speak to your breeder about switching to full. I haven't ever heard about vasectomy preventing a dog from showing, but I also haven't heard of them being shown so I am not certain. I would think it's probably ok. It is a lot of coat maintenance to do even a modified continental cut though, which is always daunting to me.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> So glad he is doing great! You would need to have full registration on him to enter akc confirmation.


So full registration is a requirement for showing for conformation? I hadn't even thought of that. I guess it's solely about breeding then, not about bragging rights. That all I'd be doing it for. Could I just have him evaluated fo conformation without doing all the hard work?
I know this is off topic, but since it's my thread, I'm OK with it 🤣.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I believe UKC has an altered dog class? Not sure if that requires full registration. I suspect his breeder could give you a good run through of his strengths and flaws if you visited.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> I've been wondering about showing for conformation now. I don't believe I will ever do it, but with a vasectomy, I see no reason why we couldn't. I know the point is to determine whether or not he's worthy of breeding, but I'm sure there are some that do it just to find out where their dog stands. Could I show him and title him for (AKC) conformation if I was so inclined?


Since he has had a vasectomy, he is technically altered, and probably not eligible for AKC conformation. And yes, he would have to have full registration for conformation, not Limited. His breeder is the only one who can change Limited to Full. 

SECTION 8. A dog which is blind, deaf, castrated,
spayed, or which has been changed in appearance by
artificial means except as specified in the standard for its
breed, or a male which does not have two normal testicles normally located in the scrotum, may not compete at
any show and will be disqualified except that a castrated
male may be entered as Stud Dog in the Stud Dog Class
and a spayed bitch may be entered as Brood Bitch in the
Brood Bitch Class.

As far as UKC goes, I'm not sure. He's altered, yes. but still obviously has testicles. I could ask in some Facebook groups I'm in, if you'd like.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Thanks for the feedback @TeamHellhound. Although he is altered, the attached rule 8 doesn't seem to pointedly disqualify him. His appearance has not been altered in any way. His testicles are OEM. I'm definitely NOT going to be keeping him in a proper Continental cut, or the likes. I guess I'd just like to know how he fairs conformation wise. Just to know. To me, his tail set seems low, and he seems slightly cowhocked. I don't know how to judge these features though. I will ask my breeder when I see her in the future. 
No _*need*_ to ask, but if you're inclined to do so, do let me know what you find out.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I asked. You _can _do UKC Altered conformation with a dog who's had a vasectomy. Just tell the judge that the dog's had a vasectomy. The person who told me recommends that you get a letter from your vet stating that he's had a vasectomy.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> I asked. You _can _do UKC Altered conformation with a dog who's had a vasectomy. Just tell the judge that the dog's had a vasectomy. The person who told me recommends that you get a letter from your vet stating that he's had a vasectomy.


I already have a letter on hand. Thanks for the research!
Now don't start expecting Conformation post out of me! Just was curious!


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Well, now there is debate on my post. On one hand, you have the person who told me that they showed their dog, as well as several other people who say they know of vasectomied dogs that have been finished, and on the other hand you have people who say that they've been told by UKC that you can't.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

That's OK. I'm not intending to do it.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Tom go for it! It's a great experience, hard work and yes, good to know how one's dog fares in a conformation show


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