# To dock or not to dock?



## Blue Fox

No docking allowed now in Oz so my boy is ala natural and I haven't known any different so I like it. His dew claws have been removed for which I am very grateful as a learner groomer, one less thing to worry about and I imagine gives anice finish to legs when they are cut short as you wouldn't have dew claws sticking out.

Personally I am against docking and am glad we don't do it here anymore, now all dogs have to compete with their tails so no-one has an unfair advantage. BUT if you still can over there I'm interested to see if any of the showies think dogs with tails are penalised in the ring.

I love the look of a docked and ear cropped doberman and while I would never buy one purely because I am opposed to cosmetically altering a dog for looks alone they do look fantastic.


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## Purple Poodle

I have always been an anti-dock/crop/declaw/debark person but now I'm feeling a bit torn...I would really like to know what the UKC shows feel about it. I know with AKC its required (which is asinine) but the UKC does say that a tail carried over the back is a major fault and I would hate to be faulted just because of a natural tail. So....you see my problem?


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## SECRETO

I think you should do as you like but do consider that a lot of people want a Poodle with a docked tail. Eli's litter did not have there tails docked and I had his docked between 4-5 months. I don't remember exactly how old. I wish he would of had it done and he certainly went through more of a ordeal having it done at 4-5 months then he would of at 3 days. 

Also if you are even considering showing then I really think you should have them done. Its better to be safe rather then sorry ecspecially just starting out...with any breed. Dew claws to me are a must. So many dogs catch them on things and tear it. No good! 

One more thing to consider...you said Tuesday's tail is a little gay. If you leave the tails natural you very well can have Poodle's with tails that curl over. When there docked you can't always tell they curled. Un-docked and over the back would be a major fault. I say dock them.


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## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> I have always been an anti-dock/crop/declaw/debark person but now I'm feeling a bit torn...I would really like to know what the UKC shows feel about it. I know with AKC its required (which is asinine) but the UKC does say that a tail carried over the back is a major fault and I would hate to be faulted just because of a natural tail. So....you see my problem?


PP dock them then and don't take the chance then. Look at like this...boys get cir***sized at a week old and its not a big deal. I was always the one who thought ear cropping was cruel. Then we got our first show dog and I knew it had to be done. They are usually 10 weeks when the ears get cropped and they come home the next day running around and playing like normal. Yes its a little itchy and if they bump then then it hurts for a minute but over all its not that bad. The ears are almost healed in a week. Years of looking at my dog with cropped ears or a docked tail is well worth it to me. That's just my opinion though.


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## spoofan

I personally prefer the tail docked...the overall look is more balanced.
My daughter is against docking and here is a picture of her Stella with an undocked tail.


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## tannerokeefe

spoofan said:


> I personally prefer the tail docked...the overall look is more balanced.
> My daughter is against docking and here is a picture of her Stella with an undocked tail.


I would have to agree, the docked tail looks much better IMO.


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## T o d d

tannerokeefe said:


> I would have to agree, the docked tail looks much better IMO.


I agree !!


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## WonderPup

I agree to with the tail being docked, HOWEVER, seeing as there is no real purpose for it and it isn't like docking a talk on a dobie or a schn or something I don't really see that it matters a great deal. Especaily when you consider that you dont really dock much off a poodle tail. 
Dewclaws on the other hand, Off with them. I HATE them. Jazz has hers and she is always catching me or the hubby with them. If she were a little younger I would have them removed but as she is three.... I don't know that I will. It's really unpleasant to see one ripped off on an adult dog because they caught it on something.... *shivers* That and people who are not groomers and take their dog to have them groomed have to worry about the groomer forgetting the trim the dewclaw because most dog's have them removed. The owners may even forget that the dog has them. I frequently forget that Howie has his dewclaws and I'll admit to having let them get long a time or two, almost to the point where they started to curve. I would feel horriable if ever they grew into his paw pad, so now I mark it on my calender so it's less likely I will forget. He gets heartworm meds and a nail check on the first of every month now. As a breeder I don't ever leave dew claws now and I really regret the past litters that I have left them.


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## SECRETO

WonderPup said:


> I agree to with the tail being docked, HOWEVER, seeing as there is no real purpose for it and it isn't like docking a talk on a dobie or a schn or something I don't really see that it matters a great deal. Especaily when you consider that you dont really dock much off a poodle tail.
> Dewclaws on the other hand, Off with them. I HATE them. Jazz has hers and she is always catching me or the hubby with them. If she were a little younger I would have them removed but as she is three.... I don't know that I will. It's really unpleasant to see one ripped off on an adult dog because they caught it on something.... *shivers* That and people who are not groomers and take their dog to have them groomed have to worry about the groomer forgetting the trim the dewclaw because most dog's have them removed. The owners may even forget that the dog has them. I frequently forget that Howie has his dewclaws and I'll admit to having let them get long a time or two, almost to the point where they started to curve. I would feel horriable if ever they grew into his paw pad, so now I mark it on my calender so it's less likely I will forget. He gets heartworm meds and a nail check on the first of every month now. As a breeder I don't ever leave dew claws now and I really regret the past litters that I have left them.



I would certainly not have dew claws removed on Jazz at this point. I had Eli's removed when we had his tail docked (4-5 months old) and he was in a lot of pain. My husband and I were so upset thinking we did the wrong thing. However it had already been done and we just had to deal with it. It took a few days before Eli could walk comfortably. That why I feel that PP should just have it all done (dew's and tails) when they are 3 days and not worry about a future owner having it done later. Its much more painful for the dog later. That just my opinion though. :tongue:


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## mercymoon

I just gotta state I'm all for docking if it's done at the right age
(we usually do our puppies before they are three days old by a vet).
I honestly prefer the docked tail compared to the natural toilet brush
tail, lol. As for Dewclaws, my dogs haven't had theirs removed but it
is something I would definitely consider doing in the future. 

Never had any of our dogs ears cropped, but I do prefer it on some breeds
as well such as the bulldogs, etc.


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## Purple Poodle

I still don't know what I'm going to do. I like the natural tail and I've never had an issue with front dewclaws. For now I think I'll stick with leaving the tails natural. With the dewclaws I think I'll wait and see when they are born if they are attached they will stay if they are unattached I'll have them removed. 

I like the natural look of other breeds as well...

Tuesdays tail is docked a little long as it the sire and you can see where it would start to curve and I think it will be okay. Like I said all but 2 of the pups will be pets only.


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## SECRETO

So are you going to dock the tail on your pic pup or are you going to attemp to show it with a natural tail? 

IMO you should reconsider leaving the tails natural. I can't speak for all but most people that want to purchase a Poodle puppy just expect that it will have its tail docked at least. It just seems like a mandatory thing to do for a Poodle here in the U.S. 

When I bought Eli I knew he had a tail. It gave me room to neg. the price because I would have to add that expense onto what I was paying for him. Mr. Eli ended up being a $800.00 dog after it was all done. $375.00 (ELI) $420.00 (dew and dock). Thats still is a decent price for a Standard Poodle (pet) but what a headache trying to figure out if I should or not. Some vets and people said it can ruin the dog having is tail docked now and other's said he'll probably be fine. It took me a few months to get the courage to have it done. Im gald I did now even though the retarded vet did it too short but its better then looking at his long tail. 

Well I better stop blabbing on and on about why I think you should reconsider. lol I Thats just what I think about the whole idea. Away with the tails! lol


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## starkeeper

*I have no clue what the right thing to do is*

Star has a docked tail and no dew claws.

My other dogs have all had dew claws. One dog had one rip badly and had to have surgery and it grew back and so I am glad not to have to trim them on Star.

If given the choice myself.....I would probably leave the tail and dew claws alone and go natural....but.....I am a 'wuss'. 

~Mari :star: keeper


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## Mandycasey'smom

I so want a poodle with a full tail. Here in Canada it will be illigal to do cosmetic on a dog in BC I think it was. I notice more and more breeders leaving the tail now but still doing dw claws. 
Poor Casey has a BOBBED tail and wish it was longer. Looks like a rottie tail to be honest
Natural is the way of the future


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## WonderPup

Soooo, if you were to decide to go ahead and dock, do you have a vet who is good at it, and will listen to instructions on exactly where and how you want it done? Something to think about. Look at all the toy poo's that barely have a tail at all, they just have sort of a butt flap that covers up their pooper. 

One of my best clients who also has a standard poodle that I just adore and have been grooming for a little over a year made a comment about Jazz's tail being long and she asked if it had not been docked. I really had to bite my tounge to keep from pointing out that HER dog's tail was waaayyyy to short, thus making Jazz's tail look long to her. She paid a lot of money for that dog and bless her she is really serious about his care and his haircuts to the point of being crazy sometimes.


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## Purple Poodle

Jenn I can't believe you went and had Eli's tail a dews done after you got him! :shock: Would it have been that bad to leave them there? I could never imagine taking in an older puppy and putting it though that, its bad enough at 3 days old. I had my Dachshunds done when we had her spayed but that's only because hers were detached and she chewed on them. All of my dogs with dews use them and I have never had an issue with them over growing.

Yeah I think I'll leave them natural, and yes I will show the pup natural. Imported dogs are shown natural all the time and I don't think they are faulted are they.

I think a lot of puppy buyers are not even aware that their tails are cut off *shrug* I will let potential puppy buyers know that they will be natural so it won't be a shock. 

I don't care for cropping either, my second love is the Miniature Schnauzer and to me there is nothing cuter then a natural eared/tailed Schnauzer.

Yeah, natural. 

Thanks for your opinions though I appreciate them.


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## Blue Fox

Just to play the devil's advocate - will potential show puppy buyres even want to look if they know the tails are natural? Obviously over here it isn't an issue anymore cause we're all natural tails but some people may have a perception right or wrong that their pup will be penalised if it has the longer tail?

Definately dew claws off thought. It is soo much easier to groom legs with no dew claws and no worry about them being ripped off at a later date by rough play, getting caught, what ever...


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## Mandycasey'smom

ok if it is alitter not on the ground yet why not take reservations with or without the tails unrefundable and give them the choice till pups are born.
I realize one can't choose a pup they can't see and probably not for a few weeks but that way some are given a choice which for me as said would be natural and it won't be a few short years till it is the norm anyways


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## WonderPup

Purple Poodle said:


> .
> I think a lot of puppy buyers are not even aware that their tails are cut off *shrug* I will let potential puppy buyers know that they will be natural so it won't be a shock.


You are 100% right there. A lot of people aren't even aware that poo tails are docked. I wasn't until about 4 years ago when my vet wanted to know if I knew " so and so the poodle breeder who shows her dogs" She said so and so had just been in to have a litter's tails docked. I was like, you dock a poodle tail?? The vet laughed at me, but there ya go, I learned something new. 
In my area if a poodle has a natural tail (and this goes for cockers, schnauzers, dobes, and anything else you can think of that gets docked), everyone thinks it's a mix and not a purebred. We have a standard who's tail is natural and everyone thinks he's a labradoodle and will go as far as to argue with his owner about the fact. 

I still stand by the dew claw thing though, it's as much for the dog's comfort as it is for the owners. You may not have had a problem, but then YOU probably pay loads of attention to you dogs and their physical condition on a daily bases. Most pet owners do not, which is why you get grown in dew claws. Alot of groomers assume that responsible breeders remove dewclaws and in my area at least a great many of those groomers forget to check for them and trim the nails. 
I'm not sure how your dogs are using their dew claws either. Maybe you could explain? I have two in my house that have theirs and they don't use them, they can't. They are to high up for digging or climbing.


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## Harley_chik

This is JMO and I'm not talking about anyone here, but leaving the dogs natural always seemed a bit lazy to me. Like the breeders were amateurs and didn't want to bother with the hassle and cost of docking/dewclaws. Most of the dogs I see w/ natural tails and/or dewclaws are from BYBs who advertise in the paper.


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## mercymoon

I think docking is a personal choice made by the breeder- I don't think
just because tails aren't docked makes them a bad breeder- NO WAY! 
In some places tail docking is already illegal. Personally I prefer
the docked tail, when I have purchased a poodle I always ask if the
tail has been docked due to that is what * I *prefer, different people
prefer different things.

Also, I just gotta state I really love the docked tail if it is done RIGHT and
is docked the right LENGTH. I friggin hate people who dock the tails to a
tiny little nubbin that's barely visible! :banghead:


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## SECRETO

Harley_chik said:


> This is JMO and I'm not talking about anyone here,* but leaving the dogs natural always seemed a bit lazy to me. Like the breeders were amateurs and didn't want to bother with the hassle and cost of docking/dewclaws. * Most of the dogs I see w/ natural tails and/or dewclaws are from BYBs who advertise in the paper.


I totally agree. I think most people that leave the tails just don't want to put out the money. They always have an excuse why too....my boyfriend likes natural, people asked me not too, etc. No one ever admits they just didn't want to fork out the cash. Oh and yes they are usually back yard breeder's. 

Oh and PP, yep I certainly did have Eli's tail and dew's done at like 4.5 months. Like I said I would never do it again but now that its already been done Im happy I did. I bought Eli from a lady that bred her male and female pets. It was her first breeding and she lacked some knowledge about what should be properly done on Poodle's. However, she has told me many times now that she would never breed again and she regret's not having the tails done. 

On a seperate note PP....I know you've been really contiplating the tail and dew claw issue but have you began the health testing yet on Tuesday? Getting all those test's done that should be done prior to breeding can take a little time.


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## mercymoon

Some people here in the US think tail docking is cruel and should be
made illegal, they think it is all for "fashion". I don't think it is cruel,
we always have our puppies tails docked professionally before they
are over three days of age. Most the people that seem to think it
is cruel turns out to be people that aren't so knowledgeable about dogs
in the first place.

Next you're going to hear about people trying to put a stop to little boys 
getting cir***sized because it's cruel....or has that already been an issue? :lol:


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## SECRETO

This is exactly why people should dock the Poodle tail. Yep, this is my Eli just before his tail was docked and dew's where removed. Thats tail is not a pretty site!

Like I said before, I would never do it again at that age but now that its been done Im glad I did. Eli's a happy dog and has no issue's at all even though I had it done at 4.5 months. :shock:


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## SECRETO

mercymoon said:


> Some people here in the US think tail docking is cruel and should be
> made illegal, they think it is all for "fashion". I don't think it is cruel,
> we always have our puppies tails docked professionally before they
> are over three days of age. Most the people that seem to think it
> is cruel turns out to be people that aren't so knowledgeable about dogs
> in the first place.
> 
> *Next you're going to hear about people trying to put a stop to little boys
> getting cir***sized because it's cruel....or has that already been an issue?* :lol:


I seen that done as well. I wanted to watch my sons procedure and he only cryed for a second and then it was done. Of course they numbed it before but the biggest thing they cry about is being naked and spread out to be held in place. Thats not a big deal either and some people act like it absolutely cruel (like my sister):shot: lol


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## roxy25

I think the dewclaws are a MUST like Jehn stated!!!! So many people bring their dogs to the animal hospital my sister works at with torn declaws. She told me this guy had a beagle that kept tarring it’s declaw, they kept coming in to have it repaired. The owners thought it was cruel to cut declaws but my sister explained to them that it’s cruel to keep the dog in pain and coming back and forth to the vet. She also said so many people do not clip the declaw nails and they get matted within the hair or they grow into the dog’s skin! She accidently cut some ones dogs declaw before when she was grooming it was matted between the hair and she thought it was just a matt. Now she checks religiously for declaws.

As for the tail docking , Here is my opinion. With my American bobtails some kittens do not come out with natural short tails. Some are born with regular full length tails. Usually I dock them myself but we had two litters that we did not dock. When people would come over no one wanted them. We literally had to give them away free because of it. I know it will be different with the dogs but they will see that the puppies tails are not dock. If someone went out of their way to find you as a breeder they will know a thing or two about the breed they are about to spent $$$ on. It would be different if the people where buying from a petshop etc…. ( these types of people are buying based on cuteness only ) 

Another thing to consider is Showing the tails natural. Seriously dog showing can be so political! They will probably not place a dog with an undocked tail …. I know imports will have tails but they are shown in their own class…. They are not allowed to be shown in bred in american class ( akc) I am not sure how it is in the UKC but how many partis come from other countries anyways ? I have only seen parti’s exported to other countries not vice versa. If the new puppy owners come to buy a puppy that is for showing they will want the tail docked….. If you do not plan on showing then just leave the tails natural. You should post pictures of both the parents with their tails erect naturally ( do not hold tail up) I have seen some natural dogs that have tails that are curled. They will not place if that happens to the pups.


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## Purple Poodle

My dogs who have dew claws uses them to hold on to bones when they chew, or to itch their face. Its funny to watch my dogs with out dews chew on bones as the slip and slide all over as they can't get a good grip.

I did not know poodle tails were docked either until I started looking into the breed a few years ago! Haha nor did I know all dogs are born with dewclaws! I just thought some were and some weren't.

As for not docking being lazy or wanting to avoid paying to have it done is kind of ignorant to say. I don't mind paying a vet to do it but I would want them to numb the area before hand and as far as I know most do not. Plus I have yet to find a good enough reason to cut a dogs tail off. 

What I find annoying as a groomer is when BYB leave rear dew claws on yet remove the front ones, what in the hell kind of since does that make?

Its not fair to compare cir***cision to tail docking, its been proven that its more sanitary to have the foreskin removed. There is no where its proven that tail docking benefits the animal.

Yes I have made plans for the health testing, I just need to get my finances in order before I proceed. 

I have made up my mind, natural is what I want and if a person declines a puppy just because it is not docked I would rather they not have one of my puppies.

It seems American owners and groomers are the only ones with issues concerning dewclaws. I know quite a few people over seas who have had docking/dewclaw removal/cropping illegal for more the 50 years and they don't have those kinds of problems. I wonder why its just us?

I'll get some pictures of Tues with her tail held naturally, I am grooming the sire in a few days and will get some pictures of him.

Oh speaking of cats why do we no remove their dewclaws? I have done minimal research on Bobtailed cats and that's absurd to dock the ones with natural tails. Breeding a natural Bobtail to a natural Bobtail causes spinal issues so they must be bred to a natural tail Bobtail. If you dock them how can you tell what was was natural and what one was docked? Can you even show a docked cat? Pet breeding of cats is a touchy subject for me anyway so I won't go there.

A\nyway...


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## mercymoon

Purple Poodle said:


> Its not fair to compare cir***cision to tail docking, its been proven that its more sanitary to have the foreskin removed. There is no where its proven that tail docking benefits the animal.


I was just joking around really about the cir***cision compared to a dog. :tongue:

Docked tails and cropped ears were done for a reason.
It served a purpose for the occupation of the dog. These days,
it's pretty much just cosmetic. There are very few true working dogs
anymore these days. I can see why docked tails and cropped ears 
would be beneficial to a dog that hunts and is in and out of the brush.

JMO of course.


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## mercymoon

Also I would just like to state I have seen dogs with both natural tails/ears
and I think they are still just as beautiful though I prefer the docked tail.

For hunting dogs, I can see why a docked tail and cropped ears would help,
so they wouldn't get so beat up and so it wouldn't give another animal
something to grab and mutilate. With the poodle breed though I think 
people just prefer the docked tail in most cases or have it done for show 
purposes. But PP not choosing to dock her future litters tails is a personal
choice and it doesn't make her a bad breeder for God sakes. 

If a dog was truly supposed to have short or ears that stand up or tails
that were short, God would have made them that way. :tongue:

I think everyones opinions should be respected here for this topic is controversial 
with many people who all have their opinions on the matter, I know I stick by what
I believe in is right and wrong.


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## roxy25

Purple Poodle said:


> I'll get some pictures of Tues with her tail held naturally, I am grooming the sire in a few days and will get some pictures of him.
> 
> Oh speaking of cats why do we no remove their dewclaws? I have done minimal research on Bobtailed cats and that's absurd to dock the ones with natural tails. Breeding a natural Bobtail to a natural Bobtail causes spinal issues so they must be bred to a natural tail Bobtail. If you dock them how can you tell what was was natural and what one was docked? Can you even show a docked cat? Pet breeding of cats is a touchy subject for me anyway so I won't go there.
> 
> A\nyway...



Cats use their declaws ..... there is actual bone there... most dogs that have declaws are just skin hanging with a nail .... 

American bobtail breeders do not breed TAILLESS cats to natural tails ( you are thinking about manx cats ) We breed natural to natural. We are working with a natural occuring gene unlike the Manx cats .... 
You can tell an natural from a dock easily ... a natural fat pad will be at the tip of a natural bobtail. For a dock there will be no fat pad its the same with dogs born with naturally short tails ..... Docks are not allowed to show this is why breeding natural to natural is the way american bobtails are bred. You can have a litter of kittens with full length , 2 in, 1 inch, no tail , 4 inch tail it depends ..... no tails aka " rumpies" are not desirable in the breed the cat needs to have 1 inch of actual bone and the tail can not go pass the hock.

I do not pet breed ... my cats go to other american bobtail breeders to keep the gene pool from getting small. I have not bred a litter in over 2 years.

do you show tuesday or have any titles on her or the sire ? if not that is pet breeding IMO you can get them titles later but I would only breed proven stock. The cat world and dog world are too different things. Its not like you can teach cats like dogs.


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## roxy25

mercymoon said:


> But PP not choosing to dock her future litters tails is a personal
> choice and it doesn't make her a bad breeder for God sakes.


I agree 100% its her choice but she asked for our advice. I gave her my opinion and facts about both subjects. I do not care if she leaves her dogs natural at all


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## Blue Fox

I have watched many puppies have their tails docked when I was vet nursing and it was still legal in Australia. If done correctly and at an early age the pups hardly make a peep or a wriggle and for my money it certainly isn't cruel. BUT in this day and age when very few of us do use our dogs (of any breed) for what they are bred for eg. retrieving, hunting then why continue to alter the look, why not move on and alter the standard to allow for long tails and judge them on their natural carraige with tails. Times change so should our treatment of our dogs.

Altering (cutting of pieces of your dog) for cosmetic reasons is not required.


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## roxy25

Blue Fox said:


> I have watched many puppies have their tails docked when I was vet nursing and it was still legal in Australia. If done correctly and at an early age the pups hardly make a peep or a wriggle and for my money it certainly isn't cruel. BUT in this day and age when very few of us do use our dogs (of any breed) for what they are bred for eg. retrieving, hunting then why continue to alter the look, why not move on and alter the standard to allow for long tails and judge them on their natural carraige with tails. Times change so should our treatment of our dogs.
> 
> Altering (cutting of pieces of your dog) for cosmetic reasons is not required.


Yes in west hollywood CA it is ban to dock or crop ears in that area, things are changing and it will take time but I don't think USA will every put a banned on either of the two. We are more focus on banning certain breeds ....


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## mercymoon

roxy25 said:


> I agree 100% its her choice but she asked for our advice. I gave her my opinion and facts about both subjects. I do not care if she leaves her dogs natural at all


I realize that, and I also gave my own opinion on the matter as well..
several times actually, lol. I do not care if she decides to dock or leave
the natural tail as well, it's all up to her!


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## gwtwmum2

I know this had been discussed completely but the only thing I would say about dew claws is that I had a dog rip hers out once when it got caught on a blanket. She screamed and screamed and blood was everywhere. Wow was that traumatic for her and me. However, I understand the arguement can be made that it could've happened with a regular nail. Still, after that experience - I'm always happy when I get a dog that doesn't have dew claws.


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## roxy25

mercymoon said:


> I realize that, and I also gave my own opinion on the matter as well..
> several times actually, lol. I do not care if she decides to dock or leave
> the natural tail as well, it's all up to her!


Yeah I meant to quote you but it was not directed at you lol it was just a statement for anyone reading. I am totally with you it is up to her etc.. just like its up to me to dock my cats when needed. She does not have to agree with my choice , I am the one who feeds them and take care of them this is all that matters.


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## Purple Poodle

roxy25 said:


> *Cats use their declaws ..... there is actual bone there... most dogs that have declaws are just skin hanging with a nail .... *
> 
> American bobtail breeders do not breed TAILLESS cats to natural tails ( you are thinking about manx cats ) We breed natural to natural. We are working with a natural occuring gene unlike the Manx cats ....
> You can tell an natural from a dock easily ... a natural fat pad will be at the tip of a natural bobtail. For a dock there will be no fat pad its the same with dogs born with naturally short tails ..... Docks are not allowed to show this is why breeding natural to natural is the way american bobtails are bred. You can have a litter of kittens with full length , 2 in, 1 inch, no tail , 4 inch tail it depends ..... no tails aka " rumpies" are not desirable in the breed the cat needs to have 1 inch of actual bone and the tail can not go pass the hock.
> 
> I do not pet breed ... my cats go to other american bobtail breeders to keep the gene pool from getting small. I have not bred a litter in over 2 years.
> 
> do you show tuesday or have any titles on her or the sire ? if not that is pet breeding IMO you can get them titles later but I would only breed proven stock. The cat world and dog world are too different things. Its not like you can teach cats like dogs.


*Bold:* This is incorrect, the majority of dogs have attached dew claws just like cats. And I agree that those with unattached dews should ahve them removed.

I won't argue with you about the difference in the cat and dog showing world. Like I said I won't get into that.

Anyway, I've made up my mind and what y'all have said just made that more permanent about keeping any future litter I have natural.

The ignorance of some people is astounding.


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## spoofan

The reason for docking the tails is not only for the 'look'...originally,it was done for safety and health reasons.
As I stated previously,I personally prefer the docked tail,but at the same time,seeing that majority of the world outlawed it,I believe it is only a matter of time before it happens in the US.
We are already seeing many reputable,successful breeders not docking their pups tails.
In my area I am seeing more and more undocked poodles,happily waging their natural tails.
If it becomes illegal to dock one day,surely we will leave the old image of what a poodle should look like behind...and appreciate them for all that they have to offer....the lenght of the tail being only a fraction of the package.


----------



## SECRETO

Isn't the reason most breed's that call for a docked tail is because they are attemping to perserve the breed to its original state (what it was bred for). So if a Rat Terrier for instance was bred for ratting out barns the tail was docked so it wouldn't get caught up on whatever. So now we should leave there tails natural because we have animal right's activist's (sp) crying that its cruel. Give me a break. 

So if we left all the dogs that normally have a docked tail natural now, isn't that getting away from what the history of the breed is all about? So what if a dog doesn't perform its original duties. Thats why we have so many different breed's and thats what make's them unique. IMO I think its better to try and keep the different breed's as close to what they originated from as possible. 

I personally don't care if PP wants to have a litter of Poodle's and keep there tails, thats all her. She's mentioned numerous times that she wants to show so in that case I would never take my chances having a Poodle with a tail.


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Isn't the reason most breed's that call for a docked tail is because they are attemping to perserve the breed to its original state (what it was bred for). So if a Rat Terrier for instance was bred for ratting out barns the tail was docked so it wouldn't get caught up on whatever. So now we should leave there tails natural because we have animal right's activist's (sp) crying that its cruel. Give me a break.
> 
> So if we left all the dogs that normally have a docked tail natural now, isn't that getting away from what the history of the breed is all about? So what if a dog doesn't perform its original duties. Thats why we have so many different breed's and thats what make's them unique. IMO I think its better to try and keep the different breed's as close to what they originated from as possible.
> 
> I personally don't care if PP wants to have a litter of Poodle's and keep there tails, thats all her. She's mentioned numerous times that she wants to show so in that case I would never take my chances having a Poodle with a tail.


Haha you defend mutilation as preservation? Retrieving with your retriever and herding with your Shepherd Dog is preserving the breeds original function docking tails and cropping ears does nothing to the animal its all for the humans benefit. A Rottweiler is a Rottweiler regardless if it has its tail or not there are many things that make it its own breed and buy not docking it only adds to the appearance.

Anyway I'm tired of arguing about it as it just goes round and round.


----------



## Blue Fox

It's not all animal rights activist Secreto. As I said earlier tails were docked for a reason, generally these reasons no longer exist. Do you go hunting with your lot? 

I treasure the poodle history and love the continental clip and the look of docked tails but time moves on and I think it is time the standard changed worldwide to reflect that. I'm glad my boy has his tail, and that his brother and sister can be shown in Australia with their tails and do well. 

PP will make the best decision for her pups as people have said, and I don't think this thread is really about PP's pups anymore, it is more a theortical discussion about docking etc... which is OK too, I love a good debate, but PP shouldn't feel any of this is in answer to her question anymore :smile:


----------



## WonderPup

Purple Poodle said:


> My dogs who have dew claws uses them to hold on to bones when they chew, or to itch their face. Its funny to watch my dogs with out dews chew on bones as the slip and slide all over as they can't get a good grip.
> 
> 
> Oh speaking of cats why do we no remove their dewclaws? I have done minimal research on Bobtailed cats and that's absurd to dock the ones with natural tails. Breeding a natural Bobtail to a natural Bobtail causes spinal issues so they must be bred to a natural tail Bobtail. If you dock them how can you tell what was was natural and what one was docked? Can you even show a docked cat? Pet breeding of cats is a touchy subject for me anyway so I won't go there.


That is interesting PP, I have yet to observe either of my dewy dogs doing this, but will be sure to watch for it in the future. Now I am curious. 

I think that a great many people who don't do dew claws or tails or whatever their breed standard may suggest ARE lazy and/or uneducated, aka BYB. HOWEVER, that being said I absoulutly DO NOT think that should reflect poorly on a good breeder who is going through the health testing and what not who elects for personal reasons reasons not to crop or dock tails. I also don't agree that breeders/groomers here in the US are the only ones who have issue with leaving dew claws. The tibbie we imported from had dewlclaws and his breeders hate them as do a lot of other contacts I have overseas. We sent a dog over and they were thrilled that her dewclaws had been removed. 

As to cats, they do remove the dew claws if they declaw the cat, at least the vets around here do. None of the D.C. cats I've groomed had dew claws. I don't want to start a whole declaw debate here, as nothing anyone will say can add to or subtract from my current feelings on the subject. 
With cats the claws play such a large part in some of their behaviors or misbehaviors as the case may be that I think it isn't the same type of thing as with dogs and shouldn't be compaired. Dog behavior doesn't change with the removal of the dewclaws, declawed cats on the other hand.... it depends on which camp your in I guess.


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> _*Haha you defend mutilation as preservation?*_ Retrieving with your retriever and herding with your Shepherd Dog is preserving the breeds original function docking tails and cropping ears does nothing to the animal its all for the humans benefit. A Rottweiler is a Rottweiler regardless if it has its tail or not there are many things that make it its own breed and buy not docking it only adds to the appearance.
> 
> Anyway I'm tired of arguing about it as it just goes round and round.


Why ask for an opinion on weither you should dock and remove dew claw's if you have issue's with what you call "mutilation" ? Being the professional you are, why even ask everyone then? 

We all have an opinion on this...some more then other's. Like Spoofan said, which is what I was getting at previously, there where reason's for certain breed's to have docked tails. So what if they ALL aren't used for what they were originally bred for. Im not going to go out with a sign and try to protest that we should preserve the breed's to what they were bred for if or when the time comes the US doesn't allow it. But if you ask me what I personally prefer, then hell ya its a docked tail or cropped ears and dew's removed. Like I said before, having it done at the proper age is what matter's most. I personally have experience doing both now. If done at the proper age its not a big deal. However, lets not dramatize this by calling it mutilation. Good grief!

Oh ya, none of my dogs have problems chewing bones or holding on to toys etc either...


----------



## Purple Poodle

WonderPup said:


> That is interesting PP, I have yet to observe either of my dewy dogs doing this, but will be sure to watch for it in the future. Now I am curious.
> 
> I think that a great many people who don't do dew claws or tails or whatever their breed standard may suggest ARE lazy and/or uneducated, aka BYB. HOWEVER, that being said I absoulutly DO NOT think that should reflect poorly on a good breeder who is going through the health testing and what not who elects for personal reasons reasons not to crop or dock tails. I also don't agree that breeders/groomers here in the US are the only ones who have issue with leaving dew claws. The tibbie we imported from had dewlclaws and his breeders hate them as do a lot of other contacts I have overseas. We sent a dog over and they were thrilled that her dewclaws had been removed.
> 
> As to cats, they do remove the dew claws if they declaw the cat, at least the vets around here do. None of the D.C. cats I've groomed had dew claws. I don't want to start a whole declaw debate here, as nothing anyone will say can add to or subtract from my current feelings on the subject.
> With cats the claws play such a large part in some of their behaviors or misbehaviors as the case may be that I think it isn't the same type of thing as with dogs and shouldn't be compaired. Dog behavior doesn't change with the removal of the dewclaws, declawed cats on the other hand.... it depends on which camp your in I guess.


I don't mean removing them with a complete declaw but at 3 days like we do with dogs. Why cut them from dogs but no cats? It amazes me that we will do one thing to one animal but think its horrible to do it to another. Like castrating other animals, with dogs and cats we knock them out but with horses and cattle they just cut them out awake and let them go! When I showed a goat one year in 4-H they had us wrap a rubber band around its testes until they fell off! 

Do Tibbies have attached dew claws like this or are they unattached like this? To me that makes a difference if they are just hanging by the skin it becomes an issue because they do get caught and mangled But when they are like they should be they should not cause the animal any problems.

I am in no way an animal activist I don't don't feel right about causing a 3 day old pup unnecessary pain. Jenn Eli's tail is the PERFECT example of why docking tails should be stopped/optional. In America we take no consideration of what the tail should look like naturally and they end up looking like mutated corkscrews. The was one case of a multi BIS winning Mini Schnauzer who was sent over seas to breed to a natural eared/tailed bitches and ALL of the puppies he sired has rose ears and ringed tails (like a Pug) they all were petted out and neutered. The same thing happens with Boxers and Dobermans we Americans do not want the docking and cropping ban because none of our current lines would be to breed standard when natural.

Its okay we went of the original topic, I like talking with other people about this stuff. Its why I asked for y'all opinions, I wanted to know what other people think. I chat in a mostly European forum so I see natural dogs all the time. I think we are so used to the idea we ignore the reason its wrong/cruel/bad/whathaveyou.

Did you know some breeders are REQUIRED to have dewclaws and even double dewclaws?


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Why ask for an opinion on weither you should dock and remove dew claw's if you have issue's with what you call "mutilation" ? Being the professional you are, why even ask everyone then?
> 
> We all have an opinion on this...some more then other's. Like Spoofan said, which is what I was getting at previously, there where reason's for certain breed's to have docked tails. So what if they ALL aren't used for what they were originally bred for. Im not going to go out with a sign and try to protest that we should preserve the breed's to what they were bred for if or when the time comes the US doesn't allow it. But if you ask me what I personally prefer, then hell ya its a docked tail or cropped ears and dew's removed. Like I said before, having it done at the proper age is what matter's most. I personally have experience doing both now. If done at the proper age its not a big deal. However, lets not dramatize this by calling it mutilation. Good grief!
> 
> Oh ya, none of my dogs have problems chewing bones or holding on to toys etc either...


I asked because I was unsure of what to do and like I said reading y'all's opinions has helped me make up my mind. 

Why not call it what it is? 

There were reasons but do they make since anymore? Not really.


----------



## SECRETO

:thefinger:


Purple Poodle said:


> I don't mean removing them with a complete declaw but at 3 days like we do with dogs. Why cut them from dogs but no cats? It amazes me that we will do one thing to one animal but think its horrible to do it to another. Like castrating other animals, with dogs and cats we knock them out but with horses and cattle they just cut them out awake and let them go! When I showed a goat one year in 4-H they had us wrap a rubber band around its testes until they fell off!
> 
> Do Tibbies have attached dew claws like this or are they unattached like this? To me that makes a difference if they are just hanging by the skin it becomes an issue because they do get caught and mangled But when they are like they should be they should not cause the animal any problems.
> 
> I am in no way an animal activist I don't don't feel right about causing a 3 day old pup unnecessary pain. *Jenn Eli's tail is the PERFECT example of why docking tails should be stopped/optional. In America we take no consideration of what the tail should look like naturally and they end up looking like mutated corkscrews. *The was one case of a multi BIS winning Mini Schnauzer who was sent over seas to breed to a natural eared/tailed bitches and ALL of the puppies he sired has rose ears and ringed tails (like a Pug) they all were petted out and neutered. The same thing happens with Boxers and Dobermans we Americans do not want the docking and cropping ban because none of our current lines would be to breed standard when natural.
> 
> Its okay we went of the original topic, I like talking with other people about this stuff. Its why I asked for y'all opinions, I wanted to know what other people think. I chat in a mostly European forum so I see natural dogs all the time. I think we are so used to the idea we ignore the reason its wrong/cruel/bad/whathaveyou.
> 
> Did you know some breeders are REQUIRED to have dewclaws and even double dewclaws?


 First off Eli's tail is shorter because the vet not because I requested it that way. Shorter verses a longer dock make's 0 difference. Either way its a dock. Calling Eli's tail a mutated corkscrew is un-called for. I don't go around calling Tuesday a pile of crap because thats what she is or am I going to say look at those puppies with gay tails PP produced from her two piles. Don't go there about my dog tail when I never asked your opinion nor make a comment saying its mutated corkscrew. :thefinger:

Good bye everyone as I know I will either be banned temp or permantly. It was worth it though!


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> :thefinger:
> 
> First off Eli's tail is shorter because the vet not because I requested it that way. Shorter verses a longer dock make's 0 difference. Either way its a dock. Calling Eli's tail a mutated corkscrew is un-called for. I don't go around calling Tuesday a pile of crap because thats what she is or am I going to say look at those puppies with gay tails PP produced from her two piles. Don't go there about my dog tail when I never asked your opinion nor make a comment saying its mutated corkscrew. :thefinger:
> 
> Good bye everyone as I know I will either be banned temp or permantly. It was worth it though!


What in the hell are you getting so worked up for? YOU are the one who cut his tail off because YOU did not like it. You can have whatever opinion you want and I did NOT mean to offend your dog. Would you have preferred I said poorly shaped?


----------



## SECRETO

Oh and yes PP I have always thought that about Tuesday and ecspecially the stud. You mentioning before you wanted to use my Mikey would never of happened. I was only being nicer then I should of been. 

Also, I just as much as other's realize you are NOT health testing Tuesday even though you preach like your a responsible breeder. Give it up and act like what you are.


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> What in the hell are you getting so worked up for? YOU are the one who cut his tail off because YOU did not like it. You can have whatever opinion you want and I did NOT mean to offend your dog. Would you have preferred I said poorly shaped?


Don't act like you where not trying to insult me about my dogs tail. Stop your bullshit PP! Ya, Im ecspecially mad that you would talk **** about my dogs tail just because we have a difference of opinion about docking. 

You can say whatever but don't call Eli's tail a mutated corkscew to me and think its okay...........IT NOT! You don't think I was irrate when I got Eli back from the vet?????? What the hell do you think?


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Oh and yes PP I have always thought that about Tuesday and ecspecially the stud. You mentioning before you wanted to use my Mikey would never of happened. I was only being nicer then I should of been.
> 
> Also, I just as much as other's realize you are NOT health testing Tuesday even though you preach like your a responsible breeder. Give it up and act like what you are.


Haha you will find anyway to attack me won't you?

You don't have to like me or my dog, you have said many times that you don't like certain things about Tuesday and that's fine.

How do you know that I am not? You just want to peg me as a bad person don't you? Just because you don't like me right?


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Don't act like you where not trying to insult me about my dogs tail. Stop your bullshit PP! Ya, Im ecspecially mad that you would talk **** about my dogs tail just because we have a difference of opinion about docking.
> 
> You can say whatever but don't call Eli's tail a mutated corkscew to me and think its okay...........IT NOT! You don't think I was irrate when I got Eli back from the vet?????? What the hell do you think?


I never thought "oh this will jab at Jenn muhahahah!" I said it because YOU said it was an ugly natural tail! I never said anything about it after it was docked. I have two dogs who's tails are too short because of a bad dock. I don't see why you are so upset?


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> Haha you will find anyway to attack me won't you?
> 
> You don't have to like me or my dog, you have said many times that you don't like certain things about Tuesday and that's fine.
> 
> How do you know that I am not? You just want to peg me as a bad person don't you? Just because you don't like me right?


Are you kidding me....over all I have liked you this whole time. You think you know it all but the best us do that as well. It doesn't mean I don't like chatting with you. I know we are not all going agree and at times we all get worked up over our beliefs. So what?

About the health testing thing...You have mentioned how many time's now how you don't have any $$ then suddenly in a month your breeding your bitch. Come on....I think we all can read between the lines. I personally don't care if you would like to breed your dogs as is...I wouldn't, but thats me. The point is you come off acting like your something your not. 

So go ahead and pretend your laughing all you want to hide your real emotion's. Thats what someone like you would do. Im just being myself and yes you ****ed me off and Im not affraid to show my real colors. The fact is what you said was uncalled for and you know it!


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> I never thought "oh this will jab at Jenn muhahahah!" I said it because *YOU said it was an ugly natural tail! *I never said anything about it after it was docked. I have two dogs who's tails are too short because of a bad dock. I don't see why you are so upset?


Eli's was...it was curled over and thin. Its *MY DOG*... can't I make comment about my own dog's natural tail??

I NEVER ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION ABOUT MY DOGS *DOCKED* TAIL...DID I ?


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Are you kidding me....over all I have liked you this whole time. You think you know it all but the best us do that as well. It doesn't mean I don't like chatting with you. I know we are not all going agree and at times we all get worked up over our beliefs. So what?
> 
> About the health testing thing...You have mentioned how many time's now how you don't have any $$ then suddenly in a month your breeding your bitch. Come on....I think we all can read between the lines. I personally don't care if you would like to breed your dogs as is...I wouldn't, but thats me. The point is you come off acting like your something your not.
> 
> So go ahead and pretend your laughing all you want to hide your real emotion's. Thats what someone like you would do. Im just being myself and yes you ****ed me off and Im not affraid to show my real colors. The fact is what you said was uncalled for and you know it!


I know we won't agree all the time, and I know I get worked up and others get worked up and I agree so what? But for some reason I feel like you single me out, or I guess it seams I do that to my self. *shrug*

I'm sorry I offended you but understand I did not mean to, honestly it never crossed my mind that you would take offense.

I don't even know if Tuesday will come into heat next month she came in a 6 and the 8 months later so I don;t know if she will go 6 or 8. I don't even know if the sire is fertile, his owner just told me a few weeks ago the vet said he might not be after being attacked. Tuesday will have her hips done, I have been trying to find out how many X-rays I need and for some reason I can't find that info on the OFA website. The closest CERF eye clinic is 8 hours away from me, both Tues and Scrbis parents were clear there and with vWD test, right this second, I don't have the $200 to order the kits. I am still not sure about the thyroid testing as at first it (OFA) said any vet can test but now they want only certified vets so I'm not sure what to do there. So just back off on calling me irresponsible.


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Eli's was...it was curled over and thin. Its *MY DOG*... can't I make comment about my own dog's natural tail??
> 
> I NEVER ASKED FOR YOUR OPINION ABOUT MY DOGS *DOCKED* TAIL...DID I ?


I never gave you my opinion about your dogs *docked* tail did I?

Again I'm sorry my comment pushed such a big button with you, I had no idea.


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> I don't mean removing them with a complete declaw but at 3 days like we do with dogs. Why cut them from dogs but no cats? It amazes me that we will do one thing to one animal but think its horrible to do it to another. Like castrating other animals, with dogs and cats we knock them out but with horses and cattle they just cut them out awake and let them go! When I showed a goat one year in 4-H they had us wrap a rubber band around its testes until they fell off!
> 
> Do Tibbies have attached dew claws like this or are they unattached like this? To me that makes a difference if they are just hanging by the skin it becomes an issue because they do get caught and mangled But when they are like they should be they should not cause the animal any problems.
> 
> I am in no way an animal activist I don't don't feel right about causing a 3 day old pup unnecessary pain. *Jenn Eli's tail is the PERFECT example of why docking tails should be stopped/optional. In America we take no consideration of what the tail should look like naturally and they end up looking like mutated corkscrews. *The was one case of a multi BIS winning Mini Schnauzer who was sent over seas to breed to a natural eared/tailed bitches and ALL of the puppies he sired has rose ears and ringed tails (like a Pug) they all were petted out and neutered. The same thing happens with Boxers and Dobermans we Americans do not want the docking and cropping ban because none of our current lines would be to breed standard when natural.
> 
> Its okay we went of the original topic, I like talking with other people about this stuff. Its why I asked for y'all opinions, I wanted to know what other people think. I chat in a mostly European forum so I see natural dogs all the time. I think we are so used to the idea we ignore the reason its wrong/cruel/bad/whathaveyou.
> 
> Did you know some breeders are REQUIRED to have dewclaws and even double dewclaws?






Im gone going back and forth and Im sure you are as well. If I end up getting lucky and continue to remain a member then thats great. If not good luck to all and it was nice knowing everyone. I never had a problem with you PP we just have a difference of opinion. I feel that you deliberately made that comment knowing it would be offensive instead of keeping to yourself.


And yes, I now did the same thing to you when I normally keep those thought's to myself. 

Editing....we are posting at the same time here in case this sounds weird now.


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Yes, you did PP.....don't try to act like that wasn't addressed to me about Eli's tail.
> 
> Im gone going back and forth and Im sure you are as well. If I end up getting lucky and continue to remain a member then thats great. If not good luck to all and it was nice knowing everyone. I never had a problem with you PP we just have a difference of opinion. I feel that you deliberately made that comment knowing it would be offensive instead of keeping to yourself.
> 
> 
> And yes, I now did the same thing to you when I normally keep those thought's to myself. Whatever....


I used him as an example as to what can happen when breeders don't care what natural tails look like not what they look like after being docked. My other example was the Schnauzer breeding with rose ears and curly tails. I'm sorry you don't believe me about not meaning to be offensive.

I hope you don't get banned, I like talking to you and reading your opinion, well not when its like this but you know what I mean


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> I used him as an example as to what can happen when breeders don't care what natural tails look like not what they look like after being docked. My other example was the Schnauzer breeding with rose ears and curly tails. I'm sorry you don't believe me about not meaning to be offensive.
> 
> I hope you don't get banned, I like talking to you and reading your opinion, well not when its like this but you know what I mean


Ya ..we'll see what Todd think's. :fingers-crossed:


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Ya ..we'll see what Todd think's. :fingers-crossed:


Please can she stay Todd? Can she? Can she? 

Can I? :wilt: 

P.S. 

Again Jenn I *am* sorry, I never meant to upset you. :yield: :handshake:


----------



## IPP

Purple Poodle said:


> I know we won't agree all the time, and I know I get worked up and others get worked up and I agree so what? But for some reason I feel like you single me out, or I guess it seams I do that to my self. *shrug*
> 
> I'm sorry I offended you but understand I did not mean to, honestly it never crossed my mind that you would take offense.
> 
> I don't even know if Tuesday will come into heat next month she came in a 6 and the 8 months later so I don;t know if she will go 6 or 8. I don't even know if the sire is fertile, his owner just told me a few weeks ago the vet said he might not be after being attacked. Tuesday will have her hips done, I have been trying to find out how many X-rays I need and for some reason I can't find that info on the OFA website. The closest CERF eye clinic is 8 hours away from me, both Tues and Scrbis parents were clear there and with vWD test, right this second, I don't have the $200 to order the kits. I am still not sure about the thyroid testing as at first it (OFA) said any vet can test but now they want only certified vets so I'm not sure what to do there. So just back off on calling me irresponsible.


I got this through a group mailing...hope this helps. If anyone thinks I should make this into another thread so it doesn't get buried then you have my permission to do that yourself. I just thought this might be helpful for PP...I am thinking of having some of my girls done JUST FOR PEACE OF MIND...they are getting older and I don't want to find out when its too late.
---------------------------------------------------------
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inherited diseases of dogs was a completely new concept and when diseases
like prcd-PRA were an all-too-familiar heartbreak for conscientious
breeders. OptiGen is proud to have been one of the very first companies
to bring the advantage of DNA testing for hereditary diseases to the
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Based on decades of research, particularly in the area of canine ocular
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http://www.optigen.com/opt9_cheersto10yrs. html


----------



## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> Please can she stay Todd? Can she? Can she?
> 
> Can I? :wilt:
> 
> P.S.
> 
> Again Jenn I *am* sorry, I never meant to upset you. :yield: :handshake:


Oh dear...now I feel really bad for what I said too. Im sorry! 

Now look at us....begging Todd for forgiveness. lol


----------



## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Oh dear...now I feel really bad for what I said too. Im sorry!
> 
> Now look at us....begging Todd for forgiveness. lol


lol Its okay, I would rather have you tell me what you really think.

So are we okay-ish?

Oh thanks for the link IPP!


----------



## IPP

No problem! I am glad you girls are getting along better...part of the reason I chose this forum was because I got sick of everyone being so mean to each other!

Don't get me wrong...nothing wrong with a good debate. You just have to remember that our dogs are our children and if we think ANYONE is trashing our kids we are going to defend them and feathers are likely to get ruffled.

You know what they say about messing with a tigresses cubs! 

PP knows she needs to test before letting her girl be bred, but there is nothing wrong with dreaming and playing the what if game...I think she just wanted to gauge reaction to what people thought of her leaving the tails natural. If I were breeding a litter I would be interested in getting opinions...

Here is what popped into my mind...are you showing (or planning to show) Tuesday or any poodle because you want a CH dog or are you like me...you want to get more MC (multi-colored) dogs into the ring so people in general realize that there are indeed some very beautiful out there that are NOT solid colored? While you do that you may as well do natural tails since they are born that way and what is wrong with a long tail or dew claws as long as it doesn't harm the dog...correct? I am honestly just asking...I may have it all wrong!

I know some people get into showing KNOWING they have no chance (or are silly enough to think they do and they don't) for whatever reason. 

You don't have the right name, a handler, your dog is awful, the reason isn't the point...I am talking about the people who get in there with there reasonably nice build dog that has something about it that makes it UNLIKED by the general population. 

I am talking showing or competing with either your personal dog or a dog you really care about...NOT the dog someone is PAID to take in and they don't care what is one the other end of the leash as they get paid in advance or whatever. 

I am saying someone who shows or competes with either "wrong color" like red or brown (or anything that IS NOT black or white) OR their "natural tailed" dog into a group of docked dogs...they KNOW (or at least have a pretty darn good idea) that their dog isn't going to be placed because of the political aspect of it. 

But who is to say that maybe, just maybe that judge decides to throw a wench in the works that day and not put up the expected win? 

I have seen that happen too! 

You think, the crowd thinks, the breeder/handler/groomer thinks, that THIS dog is going to be put up and then THAT dog gets put up instead.

If I were in your shoes and didn't really care if she ever placed in anything as long as she tries...then I totally understand your idea of the tails. I think you know well enough that leaving the tail on will hurt you in respects to judging...but I am wondering if you will be hurt when the time comes when someone does pick another dog over yours just because of the tail! 

As long as you can take the "flack" you will get because of it, then I see no reason to have at least asked to see what people's opinions are...just can't hold them against them! 

I happen to like you both very much...and always check for new pics of Tuesday or Eli in the photo section...but I think that your maternal hormones got the best of you. 

If you had been guys you would have just punched each other in the noses and been done with it, you guys would be sitting in the pub with a cold beer and an ice pack together talking about how silly you acted. 

Alas us girls are resigned to arguing and boy can we do a fine job of it! I think girls always make better debaters then guys do!:bootyshake:


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## Blue Fox

By golly I wake up this morning and get straight in to check on my lovely poodle friends and what do I find ??? Glad to see we're trying to mend bridges guys, I would hate to see either of you banned **not really required Todd** as I really enjoy your thoughts.

I agree IPP pity we can't all go to the pub together with a cold beer or a wine I'd love that.


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## spoofan

MEOW:tongue:
Nice to see,that you girls agreed to disagree.
Obviously hot topic.
Bottom line is poodles are a wonderful breed...short or long tail.
Eli is a lovely dog...has to be if sharing some greatgrandpa with Gunther.
Tuesday is a lovely dog..great colour combo.
I believe,that the days of docked tails will soon be gone.
Those of us that like them shorter will have to get our heads wrapped around the new look.
I doubt,that anybody will pass on a poodle because of a few extra inches of tail.


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## IPP

Blue Fox said:


> By golly I wake up this morning and get straight in to check on my lovely poodle friends and what do I find ??? Glad to see we're trying to mend bridges guys, I would hate to see either of you banned **not really required Todd** as I really enjoy your thoughts.
> 
> I agree IPP pity we can't all go to the pub together with a cold beer or a wine I'd love that.


I don't drink, but I would have one with you today...we are starting switching Matthew over from formula to milk and I have had a day full of poop...UGH! Nothing worse than human baby poo...he has had 2 bathes so far today and I have had to change clothes 2 times. Nothing like baby poo up baby's back and in his hair that you KNOW you have to put your hands in to really start the morning right!

I would have one with you anyhow, if it were possible! Maybe after they are down for the evening I will have a shot of the 2 yr old bottle of Disaronno with some cola. I need something!


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## Blue Fox

Ugghhh that sounds awful IPP. Your a good girl not to drink, I have period where I don't at all and we don't during the week a home but I do like one or two if we go out. We're off to the horse races tomorrow (if they don't get cancelled due to the heat) so might have a few there so I will think of you guys :biggrin:


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## SECRETO

spoofan said:


> MEOW:tongue:
> Nice to see,that you girls agreed to disagree.
> Obviously hot topic.
> Bottom line is poodles are a wonderful breed...short or long tail.
> *Eli is a lovely dog...has to be if sharing some greatgrandpa with Gunther*.
> Tuesday is a lovely dog..great colour combo.
> I believe,that the days of docked tails will soon be gone.
> Those of us that like them shorter will have to get our heads wrapped around the new look.
> I doubt,that anybody will pass on a poodle because of a few extra inches of tail.


Actually thats Sting that share's some pedigree with pretty Gunther. lol Either way, its all good.

On another note now my attention is on my DH (and that's not meaning dear)....oh he's in the dog house! I hate to say it but tonight's going to be a bad night. Errrrrrrrr!


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## Purple Poodle

Everyone who shows wants to win, that's just the nature of competing. I want to show because its always been a dream of mine to show and raise purebred dogs. So many things have happened to where I would never able to but now that a door has opened for me I want to take what I can get while I can get it! 

I have always been the kind to want to succeed with the underdog (no pun intended). When I showed rabbits I would be the only one with blacks and maybe 6 entered while everyone else had chestnuts and entered as many rabbits as they had!

I do want to show people that there are quality Parti Colored dogs out there who are owner handled and is not black and white. I want to show Tuesday in AKC and UKC obedience. UKC conformation if she likes it and maybe even UKC herding trials. With the puppy I want to keep out of this breeding I want to be my foundation dog and build from there striving to have well rounded Parti Colored Poodles who can compete in any dog sport.

Haha I could use a nice, big, salty Margarita!


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## SECRETO

QUOTE=Purple Poodle;11244]Everyone who shows wants to win, that's just the nature of competing. I want to show because its always been a dream of mine to show and raise purebred dogs. So many things have happened to where I would never able to but now that a door has opened for me I want to take what I can get while I can get it! 

I have always been the kind to want to succeed with the underdog (no pun intended). When I showed rabbits I would be the only one with blacks and maybe 6 entered while everyone else had chestnuts and entered as many rabbits as they had!

I do want to show people that there are quality Parti Colored dogs out there who are owner handled and is not black and white. I want to show Tuesday in AKC and UKC obedience. UKC conformation if she likes it and maybe even UKC herding trials. With the puppy I want to keep out of this breeding I want to be my foundation dog and build from there striving to have well rounded Parti Colored Poodles who can compete in any dog sport.

Haha I could use a nice, big, salty Margarita![/QUOTE]

Ya, I NEED one too. :terror: Watch out DH!


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## IPP

SECRETO said:


> Actually thats Sting that share's some pedigree with pretty Gunther. lol Either way, its all good.
> 
> On another note now my attention is on my DH (and that's not meaning dear)....oh he's in the dog house! I hate to say it but tonight's going to be a bad night. Errrrrrrrr!


What did your DH do...mine refused to clean up any baby messes today and I JUST had to give Matty ANOTHER bath...ugh! For those of you counting that is his 3rd for the day. Looks like we will be switching him over to milk a lot slower than his brother! His brother tasted regular milk and REFUSED formula after that...and nothing like this in the loose stools area and he is the LACTOSE intolerant one. At least so we thought...we gave him soy formula at drs advice but he has had no problems with actual cows milk.

Anyhow when hubby gets home from work he will be picking up the house, in my hurry to get the baby in the tub the last time I tried to step over the gate I KNOW I CANNOT and slammed my knee into the top. 

If I gets me a nice boo boo I will show it off for you! Lucky I was not holding the baby when I went over or I am sure I would have gotten hurt worse trying to protect him from falling.

My hubby isn't here and boy did he get a cussing a few minutes ago about this new gate "extra tall" we got...bet his ears are BURNING! 

I wanted one I could walk through, and he thought getting the extra tall one would stop Sophie from jumping it...well now we have a gate that is too tall for me to step over safely. 

It is a huge pain in the butt because it is not "one hand operation" as advertised, maybe when it gets used more it will be easier to turn the switch...so if you are carrying a baby I think it could be more dangerous that anything. Oh did I mention that Sophie jumps over it with about 6 inches to spare? 

I would have gotten the regular height one myself, since Sophie getting into the kitchen is no big deal to me...she doesn't bother anything. So now I have this needlessly tall gate that ticks me off multiple times a day because I am used to being able to get over the gate with my hands full. But you know how it is...have to be nice and tell him I just love my birthday present! 

The funniest thing about the gate??? The poles/slats are so far apart Shippo and a few of the smaller girls can walk right through it. 

It is more to keep my sons away from the kitchen and in the living room where I can keep an eye on them, but it would be nice if the stupid thing at least kept some of the dogs where they are supposed to be! GRRRR!


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## IPP

Purple Poodle said:


> Everyone who shows wants to win, that's just the nature of competing. I want to show because its always been a dream of mine to show and raise purebred dogs. So many things have happened to where I would never able to but now that a door has opened for me I want to take what I can get while I can get it!
> 
> I have always been the kind to want to succeed with the underdog (no pun intended). When I showed rabbits I would be the only one with blacks and maybe 6 entered while everyone else had chestnuts and entered as many rabbits as they had!
> 
> I do want to show people that there are quality Parti Colored dogs out there who are owner handled and is not black and white. I want to show Tuesday in AKC and UKC obedience. UKC conformation if she likes it and maybe even UKC herding trials. With the puppy I want to keep out of this breeding I want to be my foundation dog and build from there striving to have well rounded Parti Colored Poodles who can compete in any dog sport.
> 
> Haha I could use a nice, big, salty Margarita!


I know you want to win and that is the point, but you answered my question when you said you like showing the underdogs. I figured you didn't mind the extra "flack" you get when you don't do something the way it is "supposed" to be done...and it sounds like you will be able to take any flack someone wants to dish out. As long as you know you will have extra competition just because of a few things like color and tail length and you can handle it, then more power to you!

Of course everyone wants to win, but some people take a dog in and honestly have no idea why their dog is getting laughed out of the ring...in other words they cannot see its faults because they have no idea what a fault is or REFUSE to see it in their own dog.

I am sure you can handle it! I would like to do some competing (NOT confirmation-maybe rally or obedience) myself...but that will have to wait for my retirement years. I have to find the time somewhere in my already full schedule! :banghead:


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## SECRETO

IPP said:


> What did your DH do...mine refused to clean up any baby messes today and I JUST had to give Matty ANOTHER bath...ugh! For those of you counting that is his 3rd for the day. Looks like we will be switching him over to milk a lot slower than his brother! His brother tasted regular milk and REFUSED formula after that...and nothing like this in the loose stools area and he is the LACTOSE intolerant one. At least so we thought...we gave him soy formula at drs advice but he has had no problems with actual cows milk.
> 
> Anyhow when hubby gets home from work he will be picking up the house, in my hurry to get the baby in the tub the last time I tried to step over the gate I KNOW I CANNOT and slammed my knee into the top.
> 
> If I gets me a nice boo boo I will show it off for you! Lucky I was not holding the baby when I went over or I am sure I would have gotten hurt worse trying to protect him from falling.
> 
> My hubby isn't here and boy did he get a cussing a few minutes ago about this new gate "extra tall" we got...bet his ears are BURNING!
> 
> I wanted one I could walk through, and he thought getting the extra tall one would stop Sophie from jumping it...well now we have a gate that is too tall for me to step over safely.
> 
> It is a huge pain in the butt because it is not "one hand operation" as advertised, maybe when it gets used more it will be easier to turn the switch...so if you are carrying a baby I think it could be more dangerous that anything. Oh did I mention that Sophie jumps over it with about 6 inches to spare?
> 
> I would have gotten the regular height one myself, since Sophie getting into the kitchen is no big deal to me...she doesn't bother anything. So now I have this needlessly tall gate that ticks me off multiple times a day because I am used to being able to get over the gate with my hands full. But you know how it is...have to be nice and tell him I just love my birthday present!
> 
> The funniest thing about the gate??? The poles/slats are so far apart Shippo and a few of the smaller girls can walk right through it.
> 
> It is more to keep my sons away from the kitchen and in the living room where I can keep an eye on them, but it would be nice if the stupid thing at least kept some of the dogs where they are supposed to be! GRRRR!


Mine has a slight (so he says) addiction to chewing tabacco. His little addiction has led to gum problems (no brainer huh) and he told me he quit well about 5 times now since mid 2005. This last period that he supposibly (sp) quit was about 6-8 months. Little did I know he still was sneaking it while he's away at work and around our friends and family when I not around. So everyone know's that he sneaks that crap when Im not around. Talk about how heated Ive been this afternoon !!!! So now that Ive "chewed" (ha ha) him up and spit him out Im about all out of energy. So he's definatly in the dog house tonight. I just can't believe we are still going around about his chewing. He says he really try's to quit but I say ...then do it!


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## IPP

SECRETO said:


> Mine has a slight (so he says) addiction to chewing tabacco. His little addiction has led to gum problems (no brainer huh) and he told me he quit well about 5 times now since mid 2005. This last period that he supposibly (sp) quit was about 6-8 months. Little did I know he still was sneaking it while he's away at work and around our friends and family when I not around. So everyone know's that he sneaks that crap when Im not around. Talk about how heated Ive been this afternoon !!!! So now that Ive "chewed" (ha ha) him up and spit him out Im about all out of energy. So he's definatly in the dog house tonight. I just can't believe we are still going around about his chewing. He says he really try's to quit but I say ...then do it!


UGH...feel you there. My hubby is a spitter as well. I do smoke...only outside (hence why the dogs never need for a walk LOL) and NEVER when children are in my presence. 

Its hard to stop, so I guess I understand his point too...but I would BE MAD if he told me he stopped and didn't...AND all my friends knew he was lying to me!

I managed to cut back to less than 1 smoke a week when preggers...but after baby was born I was back up to my 1 pack per day within a few weeks. I can tell you its hard and I may never beat it either...but I won't lie about it either.

Sorry he let you down today...I know THAT is what hurts more than anything!

((((Jenn))))) Hugs for Jenn!


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## WonderPup

Purple Poodle said:


> Do Tibbies have attached dew claws
> 
> To me that makes a difference if they are just hanging by the skin it becomes an issue because they do get caught and mangled But when they are like they should be they should not cause the animal any problems.
> 
> I am in no way an animal activist I don't don't feel right about causing a 3 day old pup unnecessary pain.
> Did you know some breeders are REQUIRED to have dewclaws and even double dewclaws?


Now that you two are finished, I will answer your question PP. They have attached dew claws. Attached or unattached I have seen both types ripped though you are correct with big hangy downy type dew claws the problems are worse. We had a whippet who had a single dewclaw that was of the attached variety. He ripped it coursing and it was a huge mess. Had to have it removed after that. 

We don't do the dewclaws on most of our dogs at 3 days, we do it at birth. I didn't have that option with Mr. Wonderful though because we were at the emergancy clinic and he was born via emergancy c-section. Dewclaws were not on the to-do list for the afternoon, so his were done not the next day but the day after that.
I believe there is some debate about how well a newborn puppy's brain process pain, if at all? My mother does hers at 3 days if she's doing them and her puppies sometimes peep at that age so I think they can feel it. They feel something at the very least. Mine don't make a sound though and don't even twitch when we do it on day one so I am not convienced that they are in any discomfort. 

Yes G.P's are an example of a breed that is supposed to have a dew claws left, they are also required to have double dewclaws. I forget if they are supposed to be doubles on the front legs but I know they are supposed to be on the rear legs. 

I have heard of using those bands that you mentioned on your 4-H goats to dock aussie tails, I thought that was a little unpleasant personaly. Did the goat have any issue with that or did it just not care?? I know next to nothing about goats except that one year I helped another 4-Her friend put something on her goats to burn the horns off.... I'm sure thats not what it's called but you probably know what I mean right.


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## spoofan

SECRETO said:


> Actually thats Sting that share's some pedigree with pretty Gunther. lol Either way, its all good.
> 
> On another note now my attention is on my DH (and that's not meaning dear)....oh he's in the dog house! I hate to say it but tonight's going to be a bad night. Errrrrrrrr!


Of course...Sting...forgive me.
And go easy on your OH.


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## IPP

WonderPup said:


> Now that you two are finished, I will answer your question PP. They have attached dew claws. Attached or unattached I have seen both types ripped though you are correct with big hangy downy type dew claws the problems are worse. We had a whippet who had a single dewclaw that was of the attached variety. He ripped it coursing and it was a huge mess. Had to have it removed after that.
> 
> We don't do the dewclaws on most of our dogs at 3 days, we do it at birth. I didn't have that option with Mr. Wonderful though because we were at the emergancy clinic and he was born via emergancy c-section. Dewclaws were not on the to-do list for the afternoon, so his were done not the next day but the day after that.
> I believe there is some debate about how well a newborn puppy's brain process pain, if at all? My mother does hers at 3 days if she's doing them and her puppies sometimes peep at that age so I think they can feel it. They feel something at the very least. Mine don't make a sound though and don't even twitch when we do it on day one so I am not convienced that they are in any discomfort.
> 
> I have heard of using those bands that you mentioned on your 4-H goats to dock aussie tails, I thought that was a little unpleasant personaly. Did the goat have any issue with that or did it just not care?? I know next to nothing about goats except that one year I helped another 4-Her friend put something on her goats to burn the horns off.... I'm sure thats not what it's called but you probably know what I mean right.


I'm sorry...all I heard was blah blah blah WHIPPET blah blah blah...

Just kidding! Seriously though, is there not a more FULL feeling in your chest when you watch a sight hound run? I missed it so much, and I cried like a baby when Sophie took off after her 1st squirrel (off leash in enclosed area) because it reminded me of my whippies. 

I can imagine the pain that poor dog felt when it ripped off a dew claw...I have seen tons of injuries on pullies, strings ect...poor thing! I have heard of sight hounds that loose the will to race after a bad injury...and that must means it hurt REALLY BAD!


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## SECRETO

spoofan said:


> Of course...Sting...forgive me.
> And go easy on your OH.



Well by the time he arrived home this evening, I was only up for talking and a few smart a** comments. I think he's very disappointed (again) and possibly he will be successful at quiting this time. I just wish he would tell me he's having trouble and then we or he can try something to curve the craving. I don't know....I guess the bright side is he does want to quit and of course Im all over doing what I can to help the process. 

This had been going on since 2005 and it feels like the same old story. I find the stash (2 or 3 times now), or a reciept or I just have a feeling and hound him until he tell's the truth. Then we do this all over again. 

Luckily, this is the only real arguement we ever have. I thank goodness we don't have other problems I hear about from other married couples. So Im still thankful. Well thanks for all the comments and things will work there way out. I hope ...lol


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## spoofan

It's tough...he knows what he is doing is wrong,he also knows,that it will upset you...both reasons why he hides it.
Addictions are difficult to break and maybe going through some counselling would help.


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## WonderPup

LoL, Sighthounds are the best  Nothing would stop Sherman from running, even when he was getting really old he still wanted to go, and course we didn't let him, but he still wanted to. He had all sorts of titles that I don't know much about, I sort of just showed up and did what I was told by his breeder lol. He once tripped in mid course and we thought OMG, he's hurt. It didn't so much as slow him down though, stupid dog. He popped his toe that day but he still won best of breed, of course he had to be pulled because no way are we going to let him run injured, duh. He pitched a FIT in the van when they did the run offs and he wasn't allowed. Would have let him watch but he was as strong sucker and would have pulled pre-teen me off my feet trying to get to the "bunny" the other dogs were chasing. I miss him, we lost him a couple years ago. RIP Shermie.


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## SECRETO

spoofan said:


> It's tough...*he knows what he is doing is wrong,he also knows,that it will upset you...both reasons why he hides it.*
> Addictions are difficult to break and maybe going through some counselling would help.


Oh ya, I totally agree, I did suggest the counselling but he however, wants to attemp to stop again on his own. Im not confident that's going to happen. I guess we will just see. lol


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