# Cddy gene in a mother of the litter



## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

hi guys ,
I am currently shopping for a mini poodle and found one breeder that I liked( wanderlust poodles). They breed standards and just starting out minis now so this will be the first litter. However, the mother has the cddy gene, 1 copy of it. How concerned should I be?is this a big red flag?
I know this test is newer


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Based on the information I've read from UC Davis, I would not consider a CDDY positive dog a good breeding candidate: 
"Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring."





Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD) and Chondrodysplasia (CDPA) | Veterinary Genetics Laboratory


Chondrodysplasia is a short-legged phenotype characteristic of many dog breeds. Chondrodystrophy, a separate mutation, also includes a short-legged phenotype as well as premature disc degeneration and increased susceptibility to disc herniation.




vgl.ucdavis.edu





I have changed my opinion after further research. The frequency in the population is high enough that a genetic bottle neck would occur if every breeder stopped breeding carriers. This bottleneck would ultimately be worse for the breed than continuing to use otherwise stellar carriers while gradually breeding away from the problem.


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Based on the information I've read from UC Davis, I would not consider a CDDY positive dog a good breeding candidate:
> "Dogs with N/CDDY genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring."
> 
> 
> ...


Ah that breaks my heart


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.


ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.

If I found the right girl, here's the OFA link for her.



https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=2199714


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I believe wanderlust has a good reputation (I'd have to check to be sure but no time right now) so I would for sure ask them about it. I would still consider the litter based on what they say. The mutation is not fully understood and if the frequency is as high as UC Davis found, then carriers are still breeding candidates but attempts should be made to continue their lines with non carrier offspring. As long as the sire is clear and the dam shows no indication of short legs, I would consider it potentially acceptable if the breeder has put thought into the pairing.


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.
> 
> 
> ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.
> ...


Thank you for your reply! Yes that’s the girl and I also liked that about the breeder. The fact that Thai information isn’t hidden and is out there


Rose n Poos said:


> Cowpony is right but I'm curious if the breeder told you this or if you found the results on OFA yourself. It won't change the results or the risk but it may be worth asking the breeder if you found it yourself.
> 
> 
> ETA I found the info on their website and linked to PawPrint to view the results, assuming I chose the right poodle. They seem to be pretty committed to testing so I'd consider asking the breeder about it.
> ...


that’s exactly what I liked about her is the fact that that grays isn’t even required but she had it done. But I talked to someone from a poodle club and she brought up the fact that there isn’t a chic number? I do see ofa testing and don’t quite understand if her lacking chic number would be a big deal?
and yes that’s the right poodle! She provided me with the links to ofa for both parents as well
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO dad 
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO mom


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Ivmargarita said:


> Thank you for your reply! Yes that’s the girl and I also liked that about the breeder. The fact that Thai information isn’t hidden and is out there
> 
> 
> that’s exactly what I liked about her is the fact that that grays isn’t even required but she had it done. But I talked to someone from a poodle club and she brought up the fact that there isn’t a chic number? I do see ofa testing and don’t quite understand if her lacking chic number would be a big deal?
> ...


Sorry didn’t realize that my reply that I was typing while at work was still there! Ignore the fist part haha


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> I believe wanderlust has a good reputation (I'd have to check to be sure but no time right now) so I would for sure ask them about it. I would still consider the litter based on what they say. The mutation is not fully understood and if the frequency is as high as UC Davis found, then carriers are still breeding candidates but attempts should be made to continue their lines with non carrier offspring. As long as the sire is clear and the dam shows no indication of short legs, I would consider it potentially acceptable if the breeder has put thought into the pairing.


Thank you for your reply! From what I’m seeing not a lot of breeders are even testing for this so in my eyes even if I went to another breeder this could still be a risk unless they tested negative. She provided me with ofa links to both parents and both don’t have chic numbers? Would that be a big deal? I added the links in the reply above if you’d like to take a look


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I would ask why the breeder chose not to go for CHIC certification, but I wouldn't write off a breeder who does hip and several genetic health tests without pursuing CHIC. Most of the CHIC tests are phenotypic rather than genotypic. That is, they measure whatever was happening physically with the dog the day the test was done. Bad hips usually show up early; it should be apparent the dog has issues between 1-2 years. However, stuff like sebaceous adenitis and thyroid issues may not manifest until the dog is in late middle age, after being retired from breeding. Therefore, some breeders think the CHIC certification isn't worth the cost.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The latest testing was done on her in Nov and Dec 2020 and the last of the results published just 2 days ago. If she's going to get the CHIC certification, that may just be in the works still.

A CHIC number means that the breeder has done the testing outlined here








Recommended Tests | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Read the OFA recommended tests for all breeds of dogs, from Affenpinscher to the Yorkshire Terrier. Great resource for learning about your dog's health.




www.ofa.org







*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA Based test from an approved laboratory. ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
- they don't have to be passing results, just have to be done - and the dog has been permanently identified by microchip or tattoo

from CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

*CHIC Program Policies*
*Breed-Specific*

Core to the CHIC philosophy is the realization that each breed has different health concerns. Not all diseases have known modes of inheritance, nor do all diseases have screening tests. Some screening tests are based on a phenotypic evaluation, others on genetic testing. With all these variables, a key element of the CHIC Program is to customize or tailor the requirements to the needs of each breed. These unique requirements are established through input from the parent club prior to the breed’s entry into the CHIC Program.


Breed-specific requirements typically consist of the inherited diseases that are of the greatest concern and for which some screening tests are available. Each parent club also drives specific screening protocols. As an example, one parent club may allow cardiac exams to be performed by a general practitioner. Another parent club may require the exam to be performed by a board-certified cardiologist. A club may also use the CHIC Program to maintain information on other health issues for anecdotal purposes. Later, as screening tests become available, the disease may be added to the breed-specific requirements.

*Permanent Identification*

Regardless of breed, each dog must be permanently identified in order to have test results included in CHIC. Permanent identification may be in the form of a microchip or tattoo.


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> A CHIC number means that the breeder has done the testing outlined here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got it! So much information it gets confusing at times but this makes sense.. so it’s best to pass on those who don’t have chic number?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Not necessarily. They have done the requisite tests, and additionally have done testing beyond the CHIC requirements. If you look at the individual tests done on her on OFA, you'll see that those are done. 

In all the looking I've done at breeder sites and OFA over the last 8 or so months, plenty of breeders do some testing, plenty of breeders do the OFA/CHIC required testing, and some go well over that bar. Not everyone goes the extra step to get the certification, even when they've done the testing.

I like seeing the certification but if they've done the testing, the certification doesn't affect the results in any way.


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Not necessarily. They have done the requisite tests, and additionally have done testing beyond the CHIC requirements. If you look at the individual tests done on her on OFA, you'll see that those are done.
> 
> In all the looking I've done at breeder sites and OFA over the last 8 or so months, plenty of breeders do some testing, plenty of breeders do the OFA/CHIC required testing, and some go well over that bar. Not everyone goes the extra step to get the certification, even when they've done the testing.
> 
> I like seeing the certification but if they've done the testing, the certification doesn't affect the results in any way.


that makes sense ! Thank you for your help!
Overall I like the breeder.. the only thing that is slightly concerning is the cddy gene that the mom has and it’s unknown whether the dad has it as well. However , from searching online I see that not many breeders provide that test information at all so it makes me wonder if that is kind of unavoidable to some degree


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Something's confused here, probably me . 
If this is the dam of the litter you'd be considering 

BIS RBPIS UGRCH ANNA-ASH HEAD IN THE CLOUDS
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

then these links you added are to a completely different dog's sire (and they both link to the same dog fyi).



Ivmargarita said:


> Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO dad
> Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO mom


These are her sire and dam according to OFA

Sire/Dam (Click name for info)RegistrationBirthdateSexRelationHIPSELBOWCONGENITAL CARDIACCHONDRODYSTROPHY (CDDY)CHONDRODYSPLASIA (CDPA)DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHYEYESGM2-GANGLIOSIDOSISNEONATAL ENCEPHALOPATHY W/SEIZURESOSTEOCHONDRODYSPLASIARCD4 PROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHYPATELLAPROGRESSIVE RETINAL ATROPHYVON WILLEBRANDSSISCO'S DREAM DESIGN AT ANNAASHPR18964402Jan 6 2016FDamPO-25366G24F-PIPO-EL3725F24-PIPO-CA5218/24F/P-VPIPO-EYE6094/26F-VPIPO-PA5504/24F/P-VPIGOODELIFES SURE SHOTPR19831002Jan 31 2017MSireGOODNORMALPO-CA3819/13M/P-PI


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Ivmargarita said:


> from searching online I see that not many breeders provide that test information at all so it makes me wonder if that is kind of unavoidable to some degree


As mentioned, it is a newer test so it's going to take a while for it to become more common. With any of this testing, the hope is to breed out these serious conditions without adding something else unintentionally. 

I'm definitely not skilled in evaluating conformation, but Denali's legs don't look short, so that's on the positive side.


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## Ivmargarita (Jan 15, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> As mentioned, it is a newer test so it's going to take a while for it to become more common. With any of this testing, the hope is to breed out these serious conditions without adding something else unintentionally.
> 
> I'm definitely not skilled in evaluating conformation, but Denali's legs don't look short, so that's on the positive side.


thank you for all your help! I filled out an application and hopefully will get the puppy soon!


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

I'm just seeing this thread now but I would think that one copy of the gene is probably fine as long as one of the parents is clear. I've spoken with two breeders recently that were telling me that many poodles carry this gene but the dogs don't develop IVDD. I'm not sure how true that is but two of them mentioned that to me, one of them their dog did not have the gene anyway so it really was of no benefit for them to lie. The other breeder both parents had one copy of the gene. I backed away from that because it was both parents. Also, I had a poodle with IVDD. He had two copies of the gene (I was able to get him tested years later, the test wasn't available when he was younger and diagnosed). They say that dogs that end up with IVDD are very long with short legs. My dog did not have short legs but he was very long like a dachshund. I think that's a telltale sign you would want to avoid.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

MMM18 said:


> I would think that one copy of the gene is probably fine as long as one of the parents is clear.


Sometimes, yes. In this case the inheritance of CDDY and CDPA is a bit more complex than just a 50/50 chance since it's not a recessive gene. 
From PawPrint Genetics

*Chondrodystrophy with Intervertebral Disc Disease Risk Factor (CDDY with IVDD): *

Intervertebral disc disease associated with the CFA12 FGF4 mutation is inherited in an Autosomal Dominant manner meaning that *a dog only needs to inherit one copy of the mutated gene to be at an increased risk of developing the disease. Each pup that is born to an affected dog has at least a 50% chance of inheriting one copy of the CFA12 FGF4 gene mutation. *Reliable genetic testing is important for determining breeding practices. Because symptoms of IVDD do not appear until adulthood and because the mutation shows Incomplete Penetrance, genetic testing should be performed before breeding. In order to eliminate this mutation from breeding lines and to avoid the potential of producing affected pups, *breeding of dogs known to have the mutation is not recommended*....Shortened limbs associated with the CFA12 FGF4 mutation are inherited in a semi-dominant manner meaning that *dogs with a single copy of the mutation display an intermediate leg length between the normal length legs of dogs that do not inherit the mutation and dogs with two copies of the mutation which display the shortest leg length associated with this mutation.*

The dam is listed as N/CDDY on OFA which means
_►Chondrodystrophy (CDDY):_

Dogs with *N/CDDY* genotype will have leg shortening compared to N/N dogs and are at risk for intervertebral disc herniation. They will transmit this CDDY variant to 50% of their offspring. Matings with N/N genotype dogs are predicted to produce 50% shorter-legged puppies at risk for intervertebral disc herniation.
I can't find a bit that I'd read which suggested that if the affected dogs legs were of normal length they might be considered for breeding. 

Some stats from OFA. The test for CDDY has only been available since 2017. I left in the conditions above CDDY to get an idea of percentage of affected vs tested


POODLEEvaluations through December 2020RegistryRankEvaluationsAbnormalNormalCarrierEquivocalADVANCED CARDIAC49​515​0.4%​98.1%​0.0%​1.6%​AGOUTI--​4​0.0%​100.0%​0.0%​0.0%​BAER HEARING TEST--​12​0.0%​100.0%​0.0%​0.0%​BASIC CARDIAC1​270​1.1%​98.9%​0.0%​0.0%​BROWN (TYRP 1)--​4​0.0%​75.0%​25.0%​0.0%​CANINE MULTIFOCAL RETINOPATHY--​5​0.0%​100.0%​0.0%​0.0%​CATARACTS--​7​0.0%​71.4%​28.6%​0.0%​CENTRONUCLEAR MYOPATHY--​1​0.0%​100.0%​0.0%​0.0%​CHONDRODYSPLASIA (CDPA)--​48​0.0%​100.0%​0.0%​0.0%​CHONDRODYSTROPHY (CDDY)3​89​11.2%​76.4%​12.4%​0.0%​


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## MMM18 (Sep 29, 2020)

Thanks Rose n Poos for posting this! This is very helpful. I wasn't sure what I should be looking for and it does seem like I should not get a puppy that has any copies of this gene. IVDD is truly an awful disease and would not want to have another dog go through that again.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The OP discussed this with the breeder at length and felt comfortable proceeding. The dam of the pups they were interested in carries one copy but appears unaffected.

This particular breeder seems very invested in producing healthy poodles.

In general, it requires careful consideration. In any breeding, the genes the puppies inherit can't be known unless the puppy is genetically tested and that's not usually done by the breeder unless a puppy is being considered for breeding and then not usually until close to breeding age.

An owner can always have a puppy or dog tested on their own but they are yours at that point, come what may.

So, yes, if you want to avoid this specific issue then you should make sure that sire and dam are tested for this and are both clear, that is, no copies of the gene. Look for N/N results on this test.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Something else to know...there are more types of IVDD, 

From the research article "_FGF4_ retrogene on CFA12 is responsible for chondrodystrophy and intervertebral disc disease in dogs" FGF4 retrogene on CFA12 is responsible for chondrodystrophy and intervertebral disc disease in dogs

_"Hansen described the two different types of canine IVD prolapse as type I and type II. Type I occurs exclusively in chondrodystrophic breeds and is characterized by premature degeneration of all discs in young dogs. In contrast, type II occurs in older dogs and is usually limited to a single disc with only partial protrusion. In type I disc disease, the calcified nucleus pulposus may undergo an explosive herniation through the annulus fibrous into the vertebral canal, resulting in inflammation and hemorrhage and causing severe pain and neurological dysfunction."_

More on Type 1 from Intervertebral Disc Disease (IVDD)
_This type of disc disease is characterized by a more sudden inability to walk and may occur anywhere along the length of the spine. Approximately 80 percent of disc herniations occur in the middle part of the back. Type 1 disc disease occurs most commonly in small-breed dogs, such as the Dachshund, Pekingese, Shih Tzu, Toy or Miniature Poodle, Cocker Spaniel, Basset Hound, Chihuahua, and Beagle. However, it can occur in some large-breed dogs, including the Labrador Retriever, German Shepherd, Dalmatian, Pit Bull Terrier, and Rottweiler. This type of disc herniation occurs most commonly in young- to middle-aged dogs._

More on Type 2 from Intervertebral Disc Disease (IVDD)
_Type 2 disc disease is caused by chronic bulging of the outer part of the disc on the spinal cord. The condition is typically slowly progressive and may or may not be painful. It occurs most commonly in middle- to older age large-breed dogs. The chronic spinal cord compression with this type of disc disease often causes atrophy of the spinal cord._

The PawPrint test specifically states their testing is for Type 1. I'm assuming because Type 1 is more likely for poodles or it may be that testing isn't developed or maybe even not testable for the other types.


Other Names:CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc DiseaseAffected Genes:CFA12 FGF4, CFA18 FGF4Inheritance:Autosomal DominantMutation:chr12:33710168-33710178: 3209 bp insertion with duplication (AAGTCAGACAGAG); chr18:20443725-20443726: ~5 kb insertion; chr18:48415661-48415661: G/A

So, this is a reminder that testing is still not a guarantee that any dog will be disease free. The odds of developing a condition which was specifically tested for are very, very unlikely, but only for that specific condition.

My home now has a composition roof in place of the old wood shingles but my home can still catch fire, It's just unlikely that it would be from a bottle rocket on the roof.


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