# I should pass on this breeder, right?



## chillytoes (Jan 6, 2022)

Hi everyone, I'm a new dog owner trying to buy my first poodle. I've read a ton about what to look for in a good breeder, so I think I know the answer to this already, but I want a puppy too much right now so I'm second guessing myself and need someone to tell me so I can be strong 

I've been talking to a breeder, and they check a lot of the boxes off I think:

This is not their first litter
Has a limited 1 year health guarantee covering life threatening genetic disorders
Parents don't have titles but grandparents allegedly do (I haven't asked for the names of the dogs, so I haven't fact checked this)
Puppies go home at 9 or 10 weeks
They asked about my living conditions and what kind of lifestyle I lead
Says they'll let me see the puppies in person before purchasing
Is a CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) member
BUT.....
They didn't do any health testing on the parents. They said the grandparents of the dam and some of her siblings was tested clean, and the sire comes from a bloodline that tested clean. Didn't specify what testing was done either. Apparently the parents have had a litter before with puppies that were all healthy though.

I'm torn. I really want a dog, but.... this amount of health testing isn't enough, is it?

Thanks for reading


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

What size variety poodle are you looking at?
And do you know much about how the puppies have been raised (eg Puppy Culture, types and philosophy of socialization)?
As you are aware there are some things that don't sound ideal, but to be honest we in Canada don't always have the options that other countries/areas do.
Personally I couldn't buy a puppy that I wasn't able to meet the whole litter and parents of (ideally a few times) so that limits me to breeders within driving distance. You might have different priorities of course.


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## chillytoes (Jan 6, 2022)

I'm looking at miniature poodles.
The puppies will be getting lots of handling and play time, potty training and crate training. Nothing specific about puppy culture or the like.
And good point about driving distance, they are quite close to me compared to other options.

Good to know at least this isn't a situation where people would run screaming from!


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

One thing that always sticks out to me in the health guarantees is the wording of "life-threatening." What all do they cover in that? Is it only things that will actually result in the death of the puppy, or will they cover anything that will impact long-term quality of life? I would definitely make sure that is spelled out to your satisfaction.

I'd be personally very wary of parents who haven't had any health testing done. While they say the prior litter was healthy, how old are those puppies now? Many orthopedic and other diseases are not apparent until middle age.


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## chillytoes (Jan 6, 2022)

Thanks Dogtor for the tips. I'll be sure to ask about the previous litter and look closely at the contract.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

As far as health testing goes this is what OFA recommends:
*
Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚

*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
I believe it could be valid to consider a dog 'clear by parentage' for PRA.
Hip dysplasia is pretty rare in small dogs so I wouldn't get too worked up about that one unless I was planning to compete in agility. 
The lack of testing for patellar luxation would concern me though. It's a common enough issue, and while not life-threatening it can certainly affect quality of life. 
Some things that I would want to know in that regard: age of parents, as well as previous litter (older the better so any issues have a chance to be seen), vet record of health check that includes checking patellas, contact with owners from previous litter.

The big question is, if you put aside your wish for a puppy now instead of in several months, would you have other better options? No breeder is perfect, and only you can decide which aspects take priority for you.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

My issue is the short length of the health guarantee. Some life threatening genetic diseases take longer than that to diagnose, and if they aren't even utilizing the genetic testing that's available I would question what exactly that guarantee is worth. Not just this pup's parents weren't tested, but their parents parents also weren't tested. Also genetic disorders that aren't life-threatening aren't anything you want to pay to deal with either. Plenty of people pop up on the forum despairing over a dog they love with a genetic issue that is expensive to manage and time consuming to care for. Also I personally wouldn't be impressed by the grandparents having titles, it's not the grandparents you're getting a puppy from. If the grandparents having titles is worth mentioning, why weren't the parents worth titling? Do they do something else with these dogs? 

While it's definitely preferable to have a breeder within driving distance, I wouldn't skimp on the health of the dog in favor of it. Think carefully, is having a dog sooner worth possibly having to say goodbye after a few years because you went with a breeder who wasn't willing to do health testing? Is there anything beyond the timing that is attracting you to this breeder? If not, I would pass because if you're compromising already out of desperation you're only going to find yourself compromising more once you have a litter of cute puppies actually in front of you. I did, and as much as I love my boy every year presents something else for me to worry over.


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## chillytoes (Jan 6, 2022)

@Misteline around how long would you say is a good length for a health guarantee? For future reference.

After shutting up my heart and listening to my brain a bit, I think I _will _practice patience and say no to this breeder. Thank you everyone for talking me off this "ledge"! I wouldn't want to chance seeing my future dog suffer from genetic issues.


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## EpicQuestPoodles (Apr 29, 2021)

I have an issue with "clear by parentage" since it's not necessarily true, especially for eyes/heart/patellas/elbows/hips. My bitch's parents had great/excellent hips and she failed her hips so, it's not always a "clear by parentage" thing.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

chillytoes said:


> @Misteline around how long would you say is a good length for a health guarantee? For future reference.
> 
> After shutting up my heart and listening to my brain a bit, I think I _will _practice patience and say no to this breeder. Thank you everyone for talking me off this "ledge"! I wouldn't want to chance seeing my future dog suffer from genetic issues.


I am definitely not an expert in what's reasonable, especially when it comes to minis. If it were me looking I would first confirm all recommended health testing was done on the parents, preferably with any reasonable extra testing. Then I would look at the average age at which the serious genetic issues that cannot be tested for are diagnosed and decide from there what I consider reasonable. Of course everyone wants a genetic guarantee for the life of the dog, but that's not likely. The reason I'm uncomfortable with the length of the health guarantee for the breeder you're considering is because it is short, very limited, and doesn't appear they've put in _any_ of the work. The end goal is not to need the health guarantee, but even with testing I would probably want at least 2 years for _any _genetic health issues. But you need to determine what is common for a good breeder in your area, because if it's truly genetic anything short of a life guarantee (unicorn) is arbitrary imo.

I would look at what the breeder is doing with their breeding dogs as evidence of investment in the breed and their breeding program. While showing, competition, service, or therapy work doesn't guarantee health it does indicate commitment. I would want the breeder to be knowledgeable about the dogs in the parents pedigree and what health issues have cropped up to the best of their ability. How old were these dogs when they passed? What did they pass of? What efforts do they take to keep track of the outcomes of the puppies in their previous litters? Every breeder starts out somewhere, but the newer the breeder the more I want to see an effort was put in. Are there more established breeders who would vouch for this one? I want to see all of the hallmarks of an ethical breeder. How old are the parents when bred? How many litters are they planning for the mother? Do they take the puppy back if the buyer can't care for it anymore?

Also because I know a member will pop up to warn you and I want to get a jump on her, stay away from any short legged minis. They have a form of dwarfism. They're not supposed to look that way. (As a former lurker you've probably already seen this warning, but others might not.)


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Let this thread stew for 24 hours and check back....

I'll put my opinion in a spoiler box...



Spoiler: My opinion



I'm not convinced' "Nothing specific about puppy culture or the like." is a yellow flag to me. I think you can find a breeder who will start them off on a better foot like exposing them to loud noises, shave their face, get them use to grooming, etc.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Truly @Basil_the_Spoo is wise, there's a number of members far more knowledgeable than me who haven't chimed in that usually would. Probably busy with other things or asleep. I would wait for them, or at least more Canadians.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Your thread heading says it all. You are doubting and your gut feeling is questioning. Trust yourself and your gut feeling. I am sure you will get the right pup at the right time. I am a stickler for conformation, health and temperament. Colour is the icing on the cake. You want a sound dog. Poodles can live up to 14, 15, 16 + years and they deserve the healthiest and as pain-free a life as possible.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Starvt said:


> I believe it could be valid to consider a dog 'clear by parentage' for PRA.


_What does “clear by parentage” mean?

OFA records results of approximately 120 DNA tests, all of which are currently “direct mutation” tests, meaning that the test results are 100 percent accurate and not subject to interpretation. For direct mutation tests, OFA will clear by parentage for one generation.

That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.

2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA.

Once those requirements are met, the owner of the offspring to be cleared will fill out the application for DNA Based Genetic Disease (available on the OFA website), writing “clear by parentage” in the blank line at the top of the form, and submit the form with the $15 OFA processing fee. That’s it—your dog is now cleared by parentage for that disease.

The resulting certification will have a suffix of CBP, indicating that the dog itself was not tested and that the clearance is based on the sire and dam’s test results. OFA will only clear by parentage for one generation, due to the possibility of new mutations or as yet undiscovered gene mutations.

Bear in mind that DNA-based screening is an evolving science, and OFA policy is subject to change as technology and science advance._

-------------
Breeding Dogs | CKC

*Breeding Dogs*
_The majority of reputable breeders in Canada are members of The Canadian Kennel Club and are obligated to adhere to CKC policies and procedures, our Code of Ethics and Code of Practice. The CKC Code of Practice for Member Breeders insists that they aim to breed dogs that are healthy and sound in both mind and body to ensure that the dogs are true to their heritage and that conform to the requirements as defined by the Rules of Eligibility (ROE) for each breed where available.

Every responsible breeder should be devoted to breeding away from disorders in bloodlines in order to improve the health and well being of their lines. This means having an indepth knowledge of their breeds, including health and genetic concerns, structure, temperament and type.


*In order to produce the best possible offspring, both the sire and dam must be conditioned and well cared-for. Regular veterinary care, screening for genetic problems, pre-breeding health tests, exercise and good nutrition should be standard procedures.*


As well, it is the responsibility of every breeder to adhere at all times to proper and ethical business practices when buying, breeding, selling and placing their dogs. Any breeder selling a dog as purebred must register the dog and provide the new owner with the registration certificate within six months of the date of sale – this is the law, as required under the Animal Pedigree Act. _

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chillytoes said:


> Has a limited 1 year health guarantee covering life threatening genetic disorders


There are many breeders who _look_ right but aren't _doing _right by their dogs. They don't do all the recommended health testing, They rule out coverage for conditions that the parents should have been tested for before being bred.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy *
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the recommended testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

Conscientious breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

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Their guarantee covers only 1 year and only _life threatening genetic defects_. That's not all that helpful. If their dogs are tested for whatever life threatening genetic defects they might cover before being bred, and found to be affected or carriers, then why were they bred?

If they're not carriers or affected, then the guarantee has almost no meaning. I'd want to see a lot more specific information on the coverage and then I'd want to know at what age these unspecified life threatening diseases typically arise?


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You will probably see that I agree that 


chillytoes said:


> this amount of health testing isn't enough, is it?


Not knowing where you are in Canada I still have some ideas.

The most out of the box is look south to Minnesota. There are a number of excellent miniature breeders there. Sooner or later, importing/exporting will be possible again, if it isn't already.

The other suggestion is to contact the official breed club, The Poodle Club of Canada or the regional/provincial/local clubs.

From the Breeder List:

*• Minnesota*
*Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN*
Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN
safrannepoodles.com
M PFM
*Absolute Silver, Miniature Poodles, AGILITY, CONFORMATION and OBEDIENCE, Winona, MN*
Absolute Silver, Miniature Poodles, AGILITY, CONFORMATION and OBEDIENCE, Winona, MN
absolutesilverminiaturepoodles.com
M
www.allurepoodles.net/
M
*Adelheid Poodles and Havanese, Rochester, Minnesota*
Adelheid Poodles and Havanese, Rochester, Minnesota
adelheidpoodles.com
S/M
Amity Valley Kennels - Home (amitykennels.com)

Canada
Microsoft Word - PCC2021Breeders 12 30.doc (poodleclubcanada.club)

*Canada

Canadian Kennel Club*
CKC | Purebred Puppies, Dog Competitions, Show Dog Events | CKC
*Poodle Club Of Canada*
Poodle – Poodle club of Canada
*Ottawa Valley Poodle Club*
Ottawa Valley Poodle Club – Serving Ottawa and Surrounding Areas
*Poodle Club of Ontario*
Poodle Club Of Ontario
*Poodle Club of Alberta*
Poodle Club of Alberta
*Canada’s Guide to Dogs - Poodle*
Standard Poodle Clubs - Canada's Guide to Dogs


*Breeder Listings

Multi Provinces

Poodle Club of Canada Breeder List*
http://www.poodleclubcanada.club/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/PCC2020Breeders.pdf
*Canadian Kennel Club Breeder List*
Puppy List & Approved Breeders | CKC
*Ottawa Valley Poodle Club Breeder List*
Breeder Listing – Ottawa Valley Poodle Club

*BC


Alberta*
TEMPLE CITY POODLES
S/T
Seransil Standard Poodle Home
S

*Saskatchewan


Ontario*
Arreau Red Standard Poodles
Arreau Standard Poodles
S PFM
Standard Poodle Breeder | Boarding | Grooming | Udora ON near Toronto
S
Duenna Poodles – Home of Duenna Poodles
M
Home
M
Adanac Poodles of Canada - Home
Adanac
M
Tudorose Standard Poodles
S
Poodles — Groom to Bloom
S
Elan Standard Poodles - Elan Poodles
S
RockHaven PoodlesHome
S
Pristine Standard Poodles
S
Tallan Standard Poodles
Tallan Standards
S
https://www.beaucanichestandardpoodles.com
S

*Quebec*
Opus Poodles
S/M
poodlesglow
M

*PEI*
HOME | LeeAnns Poodles
M

(copying in haste so there's bound to be duplication)


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Honestly I don't like the health guarantees. They are not as common in Europe and I find that they can be a smoke screen for not doing the proper work. 

I don't expect a breeder to be able to guarantee to me that there will absolutely nothing be wrong with the dog. They can't do that, no one can. 

What I want from a breeder, and what I personally feel is more important, is to talk about what they are doing to ensure the healthiest and long lived puppies as possible. And for that to be an honest conversation. That the breeder also explains to the buyer the limitations of health testing, what it guarantees and what it doesn't guarantee. For example, for small breeds, even though the parents have been checked for luxating patella that does not guarantee that the offspring wont have LP. Likewise there are lots of genetic diseases which don't have a test for yet and there are some genetic variations which we don't understand very well yet, who increase but don't necessarily lead to a disease/diseases. 

which is why words like 'parents have been genetically screened' or 'parents are healthy/had a health check by a vet' don't really mean much.


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## chillytoes (Jan 6, 2022)

Wow, thank you for all the thoughtful replies. I'm really glad I posted here, this is a great community. I learned a lot just from this one conversation! For example, I've never heard the term "clear by parentage" until now.... back to more research!
Anyways, I think I've decided, taking into account all the wonderful opinions here, to hold off on this breeder and find one that I am truly comfortable with. Hopefully at some point covid will be done and I can travel to the states without worrying about getting back home!


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