# Competition Obedience Q & A



## lily cd re

*Orders*

What heeling and recall orders do you use in obedience? I use: _heel_; _come_ for a recall with a drop and then _front_ for the recall from the drop (or a straight recall); _get close_ for a left finish and _go around _for a right finish. All of those can be substituted for by signals at this point.


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## mvhplank

I use "with me!" for heeling because his name is Niall (say "Neal") or Neely. I use "swing" for a left finish and "go around" for a right finish. I use "come" and "front" pretty much the way you do.

I'm playing with my rat terrier Devlin in "futility"--he's done all the exercises in the ring, just not all in the same run.  Neely has two Beginner Novice legs and a UKC Rally O Level 1 title, and a UKC breed champion title. I find breed handing very hard, but I also haven't done much of it.

I imagine that many people on this forum would consider themselves "positive" trainers. Here's a blog post on that topic by one of my favorite writers on dogs and dog cognition, Stanley Coren: The Effect of Training Method on Stress Levels in Dogs | Psychology Today

Your thoughts?


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## CharismaticMillie

For heeling I say, "Let's go!" "Heel" means come to heel position, "finish" is a left finish and "behind" is a right finish.


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## lily cd re

Have any of you noticed handlers using the word strut for heel? I don't know who started it, but around here now all of a sudden people are changing their heel order for the word strut. I guess somebody who got a HIT uses it so now everyone is copying them.


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## CharismaticMillie

Yes, a few handlers in my class use strut!


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## lily cd re

Oh my, that has spread a long distance then hasn't it?


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## mvhplank

Yes, I hear "strut" in Rally and Obedience. Some handlers like to use novel cue words or other languages--usually German for GSDs, but I know of a handler who cues in French. 

I learned the hard way that using "OK" for a release can backfire. Devlin was in the honor stay (down or sit, I forget which) during a UKC Level 3 test. The dog in the ring was a whippet that was doing poorly--the handler was over time and had already NQ'd, and then she said to her dog "OK" so Devlin popped up. We had a Q up until that point. (He's a fidgety dog anyway and all our stays have been heart-stopping.)

I think the ones for go-out are the most creative--"Charge!" is my favorite.

When sending Devlin for the glove, I fell into the habit of saying "That one!", which has gotten some chuckles. Others use the glove number for the cue. 

In the same way, for directed jumps, some handlers use "bar" or "high." Since the venue I'm showing Devlin in (Companion Dog Sports Program [CDSP]) allows both voice and signal, I point to the jump (also looking at the jump, not the dog), and say "Over." Looking at the jump can be the difference between a directed jump and a straight recall.


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## lily cd re

I've heard Ian Dunbar speak and he talks to his dogs in french when he expects ring trial performance and does other things with the dog's name when about the house to indicate levels of importance to them.

The release word issue is important. I do use ok, but don't plan to use it as a release for any future dog, probably will do with free dog for that. For AKC rally I waited for the honor exercise to be gone before I did excellent since I didn't like the idea of having Lily wait for a super slow dog or have her be freaked out by a bad experience with a loose dog near her while she was trying to obey my stay order.

For gloves I use heel for one, around for two and back for three. My go out order used to be go out, but we were having bigs problems with it. I stopped training it for about two months completely, switched my strategy and gave it a new name of fly away. It still has shaky moments, but doesn't have the old problems.


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## mvhplank

*CDSP--Companion Dog Sports Program*

Now that I've mentioned it, I'd like to give a shout-out to CDSP (CDSP Home Page) for being a very dog-friendly venue. You'll mostly find it in the northeast, especially New Jersey and Pennsylvania, with pockets here and there elsewhere.

If your ultimate goal is an AKC OTCH, it's still a good place to gain ring experience and confidence. There are no group stays, you may talk to your dog ("good boy" is free but extra cues are penalized 3 points), and you may treat after the judge says "exercise finished" for each exercise. 

The order of exercises is a bit different from other venues.

--In Novice, the figure-8 is off-leash and there is a moving stand for exam (that is, the dog walks into the stand, not standing from a sit, which is penalized but not an NQ). The honor stay has just been changed to be like the AKC Beginner Novice stay--in the middle of the ring with the handler walking the perimeter before returning. 

--In Open, the broad jump is a running broad jump--think Agility--where you and the dog both run forward at the same time. The drop on recall and retrieves are similar to other venues, but the last A class exercise is a go-out. The handler and dog set up between the broad and high jumps in the middle of the ring and the handler sends the dog to the end of the ring and tells the dog to sit. Then the judge tells the handler to go to the dog, and the handler goes to heel position.

--In Utility, the scent articles may be of any material. Four are placed out and the fifth (the scented one) is added to the pile. The articles exercise is only done once. However, the glove exercise is done twice, once at each end of the ring. There's no heeling pattern with signals--down and about turn, stand your dog. And there's a bonus exercise worth 20 points--not for placements or high in trial, but it does count for OTCH points. It's similar to the UKC glove exercise. The gloves are laid out in a baseball pattern (1st, 2nd, and 3rd bases). The handler sends the dog to the "pitcher's mound" and then the judge tells the handler which glove to fetch. No points are deducted for a failure, and it does not affect whether the dog qualified.

Here's where the "gaining ring experience" makes sense. I, for one, find it frustrating to enter a C class for a chance at a ribbon but no further title. In CDSP, you can earn a championship at each level in the C class. Ten scores of 185 or better in Novice can earn a CD-CCH (the Novice title is CD-C). A similar championship for Open is CDX-CCH. Utility offers UD-CCH, UDX-C, and OTCH-C.

Full disclosure here--I'm a judge in this venue, and think it's terrific, especially for reactive dogs that may have trouble with group stays and for newbie handlers who have never tried competition. All the trials I've attended have been encouraging and welcoming. The entry fees are generally low compared to AKC. The web site has much more information and a list of upcoming approved trials, if you're interested in learning more.


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## lily cd re

We host AKC, WCR and CDSP events at our club (Suffolk Obedience). I haven't done CDSP since I haven't gotten around to registering Lily in it, but may give it a try. It is hard to find enough matches that run under trial-like circumstances and I know some of the people at my club like CDSP for that purpose. Others I know just like collecting titles from any and every venue.


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> We host AKC, WCR and CDSP events at our club (Suffolk Obedience). I haven't done CDSP since I haven't gotten around to registering Lily in it, but may give it a try. It is hard to find enough matches that run under trial-like circumstances and I know some of the people at my club like CDSP for that purpose. Others I know just like collecting titles from any and every venue.


Well, true that. I like to collect titles too. An added incentive for me, though, is that it's easy to earn free runs by volunteering. I'm secretary of our next trial and was a judge at the previous one. If I'm not judging at the next trial, I'll probably be secretary again.


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## lily cd re

I don't think we get free runs out of volunteering, but we do also have AKC matches that are very cheap before our own trials. I do volunteer a lot. Partly I just have it in my nature to do so, but I also find it to be a great learning opportunity. I volunteered at national obedience as a steward. One of the other stewards at my ring is also a judge. Listening to him and the judge was very informative. At my club I judge lots of matches. I learn a lot from watching other teams (both about what I like and what can go wrong).


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> I don't think we get free runs out of volunteering, but we do also have AKC matches that are very cheap before our own trials. I do volunteer a lot. Partly I just have it in my nature to do so, but I also find it to be a great learning opportunity. I volunteered at national obedience as a steward. One of the other stewards at my ring is also a judge. Listening to him and the judge was very informative. At my club I judge lots of matches. I learn a lot from watching other teams (both about what I like and what can go wrong).


Well, every club is different. Ours is pretty generous with free runs to encourage volunteers. But, as you say, volunteering itself is valuable experience!


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## JudyD

mvhplank;1117881
Here's a blog post on that topic by one of my favorite writers on dogs and dog cognition said:


> The Effect of Training Method on Stress Levels in Dogs | Psychology Today[/url]
> 
> Your thoughts?


That is an interesting article. On first reading, I understood that the researchers looked only at signs of stress, not at whether the behavior was actually learned. On second reading, it appears they looked at signs of stress in dogs who were performing a particular learned behavior that had been taught using either positive reinforcement or discipline-based methods. Still not clear to me how well the behaviors were performed. That seems to be a critical factor. If the stressed dogs performed better, then perhaps some level of stress is a necessary component of successful learning. If positive reinforcement consistently led to better performance, then perhaps stress interferes with learning. (I'm pretty sure I haven't learned any difficult behavior that hasn't stressed me to some degree in the process.) I think there's a balance there somewhere.


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## mvhplank

JudyD said:


> That is an interesting article. On first reading, I understood that the researchers looked only at signs of stress, not at whether the behavior was actually learned. On second reading, it appears they looked at signs of stress in dogs who were performing a particular learned behavior that had been taught using either positive reinforcement or discipline-based methods. Still not clear to me how well the behaviors were performed. That seems to be a critical factor. If the stressed dogs performed better, then perhaps some level of stress is a necessary component of successful learning. If positive reinforcement consistently led to better performance, then perhaps stress interferes with learning. (I'm pretty sure I haven't learned any difficult behavior that hasn't stressed me to some degree in the process.) I think there's a balance there somewhere.


I'm going to come down on the positive-reinforcement side as opposed to "balanced training," which uses both positive reinforcement and positive punishment.

Here's some suggested reading:
-- A Surprising Look at Balanced Training (The Smart Dog Blog)
-- Myth Busting: "Clicker Dogs are Unreliable" - Spring Forth Dog Blog
-- Common Myths about using Treats to Train Dogs by Pat Gray | Critters 360

Before I understood how positive reinforcement worked, I was a "traditional trainer." Pamela Dennison's book changed all that for me. ( [ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Positive-Training/dp/0028644638[/ame] )

I'm still a neophyte at this, but the thing that has convinced me that "positive" is the way was when I saw a darling little terrier-type follow her male owner into the run-through ring. Her head was down and she was moving slowly. They set up for a Utility run and I could see her heart just wasn't in it. And when she came back with the wrong article, the handler took her back to the pile and gave her an ear pinch. That poor dog was working because she had no choice, not because she wanted to.

If I can't figure out how to train without popping a collar or yelling at my dog, then the problem is with me, and not with the dog.

Ahem ... I'll get off my soapbox now. Thank you for your patience.


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## JudyD

I was most interested in the statement that stressed dogs avoid looking at their handlers. I've certainly made some mistakes with Jazz that make her less eager to work formal obedience routines, but she doesn't avoid looking at me. Sometimes she looks anxious, but she does watch me...unless there's something more entertaining going on. 

I wonder if anyone has tabulated how top scoring obedience dogs were/are trained.


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## mvhplank

JudyD said:


> I was most interested in the statement that stressed dogs avoid looking at their handlers. I've certainly made some mistakes with Jazz that make her less eager to work formal obedience routines, but she doesn't avoid looking at me. Sometimes she looks anxious, but she does watch me...unless there's something more entertaining going on.
> 
> I wonder if anyone has tabulated how top scoring obedience dogs were/are trained.


I'd be interested in such a tabulation, too. It's getting to be a loaded question so I'd hesitate to interview those who Q as they leave from collecting their ribbons. 

Maybe those French researchers can sit ringside, tabulate stress signs, and cross-reference the results against placements. In fact--that might be a fun thing to do the next time I steward at AKC.


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## JudyD

mvhplank said:


> I'd be interested in such a tabulation, too. It's getting to be a loaded question so I'd hesitate to interview those who Q as they leave from collecting their ribbons.
> 
> Maybe those French researchers can sit ringside, tabulate stress signs, and cross-reference the results against placements. In fact--that might be a fun thing to do the next time I steward at AKC.


If you do, be sure to post your results here. I'm sure we aren't the only ones who would be interested.

I said above that Jazzie watches me, but I realized I can see her only when she's in a sit-stay or down-stay, so I had my husband video a brief segment of heeling. She does keep an eye on me, at least most of the time...and string cheese helps a lot.


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## lily cd re

Poodles are generally way too sensitive for harsh physical and even verbal corrections. I will always be positive and give support when Lily or any dog I am working with is learning. I use a verbal marker rather than a clicker, partly because I am too clumsy to manage holding a clicker plus leash plus what ever else I need, and partly because I find my mark is timed better with a verbal. 

I do think though that if the dog knows what to do and is choosing not to do what you ask because they are more interested in flirting with the class instructor, judge or steward (in a match of course) that a refocusing correction like gently taking the dog by the collar and leading it back to where it was when it stopped working is fine. I also use "oopsies" said nicely but firmly to tell the dog that wasn't what you were supposed to do when a mistake is made.

I also do think there is such a thing as balanced training, but I am not talking about things like an ear pinch or a leash pop. Lots of people I train with are very high energy in praising the dog for correct performances. I see lots of their dogs getting overly revved up and then losing points or even NQing because they jump up on their handlers or get the zoomies and things like that. A number of these people (and I consider them friendly and well meaning) think I am way too low key in my praise and too cheap with my food in training. I know Lily though and do have a clear sense of when she will get overcharged and stop paying attention. I also have to be firm with my voice or she seems to think I am asking for a behavior rather than giving an order. 

There are things to do to have a dog that is happy to go into a trial ring. This includes having a routine for being on deck and for actually entering the ring. I do lots of position changes where I just take a step or two in different directions and have Lily moving to re-find front or to sit promptly at heel when I am on deck. When it is time to go into the ring I ask for attention and then mark the ring entrance for her before we enter. In other words I have her look at both me and the ring before we go in. Once in and leash is off, I wait until she checks in with me again before I will reply to the judge's inquiry as to whether we are ready.


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## JudyD

_I know Lily though and do have a clear sense of when she will get overcharged and stop paying attention. I also have to be firm with my voice or she seems to think I am asking for a behavior rather than giving an order. _

As a bike rider, I developed a growling "NOOOOO!!!" when a loose dog came after me (which was several times almost every ride). Most dogs would stop, or at least slow to a trot. (For the others, there was pepper spray. A bicyclist traveling 15 or 20 mph can't risk a collision with a chasing dog.) I use a milder variation of that tone when Jazz gets out of line. Rich and I just got back from a hike. Most of the time, Jazz ran free, trailing her leash, and responded very well to verbal encouragement to stay with us. At one point, though, she stopped, got totally focused, and tensed to chase something. A firm "Nooooo!" stopped her and turned her back to us. Very useful when she forgets herself and might be endangered by doing so.


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## lily cd re

It does help to have a tone that your dog understands as "what she just said isn't negotiable."

As an aside did you see that there was a crash in last year's Tour de France because a dog tried to cross the road in the middle of the peleton? Dog was ok.


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## JudyD

I did see that. It's a wonder the whole peloton didn't go down. 
As I recall, none of the riders was injured, either, but didn't one of them get up swinging at the dog's owner?


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## lily cd re

Yes, I think one of the riders did take a shot at the dog's owner. My Bf is a former professional road cyclist. His take is that the adrenaline runs really high in situations like that. Thankfully no one ended up hurt.


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## JudyD

Wow, lily, what team did your BF ride for? Do you ride?

Sometimes I think people who watch bike races are a bit...odd, but I'm probably just thinking of myself. I've been known to watch the TdF or the Giro twice a day, in real time and again during the replay. Odd, indeed, but I love it.


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## lily cd re

He rode ages ago for a couple of teams, mostly in US but also some in England and Belgium. We often do as you do watching live and then on the replay. He wrenches now and his current shop has the tv on for races. We met when I bought my road bike from him. I am somewhat ashamed to say it is hanging in garage with a fair amount of cob webs on it.


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## mvhplank

Here's another blog post from Stanley Coren: The Effect of Training Methods on the Efficiency of Learning

Your thoughts?

In other news, Neely earned one win in the Champion class (it counts toward the UKC Grand Champion title) over the weekend. It was a pretty big show with quite a number of very nice poodles, so we were doing well to get that one win on Friday night--and a reserve on Saturday.

His full sister (littermate) went Best In Show Friday night and Saturday morning, which I thought was stupendous.


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## JudyD

Interesting article. As I read it, all the trainers used a mix of positive and negative training. Clearly the most-punished dogs showed signs of stress and performed less well. What the author didn't address was whether there was a straight-line, continuous improvement associated with less to no punishment. Was there a peak in performance associated with some mix of the two, or was there continuous improvement as positive training increased?

Congratulations on Neely's win!


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## poolann

I have a forger. I've heard that this is easier to fix than a lag but it is my first experience with it. Racer and I had our first formal obd class tonight. The dogs we joined have already had 6 weeks of novice but aren't ready to show at that level yet. His recall was great. Sits & downs were OK except when someone opened a bag of treats. Overall I was pleased but about 50% of his sits off lead were in front of me due to the forging. Does anyone have tips for training at home to improve the issue?

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## mvhplank

poolann said:


> I have a forger. I've heard that this is easier to fix than a lag but it is my first experience with it. Racer and I had our first formal obd class tonight. The dogs we joined have already had 6 weeks of novice but aren't ready to show at that level yet. His recall was great. Sits & downs were OK except when someone opened a bag of treats. Overall I was pleased but about 50% of his sits off lead were in front of me due to the forging. Does anyone have tips for training at home to improve the issue?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If I could afford it, I would take on-line classes from someone like Denise Fenzi. In the meantime, her blog and many, many videos cover heeling and other training issues.

For myself, I started the boy using Dr. Sophia Yin's methods--when he gets ahead, I stop. When he's back in position, we go again. (Hard to do in class, I know. Some things are better worked out first when it's just the two of you.) The cue I'm putting on it is "with me!" (because "heel" sounds too much like his name). We get lots of practice in the local rec park--we put in over 300 miles last year. The recent rain is cutting into the program this week, but we might go back out this afternoon.


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## lily cd re

Here is what Ian Dunbar said about lagging and forging when I went to his lecture seminar last Saturday. Put both of them on cue. Then when the dog is lagging tell it to forge to correct it's position and the reverse. I don't get lots of lagging and forging anymore and I don't think at this point I have notes on how I got rid of it, but I do know that now when I see slips I do change my own pace dramatically to the opposite of what Lily is doing. If she forges, I slow way down. If she is wide I do changes of direction. Once she checks in she quickly re-finds her correct position.


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## poolann

Thanks mvhplank. I will look into those resources. I will also try stopping in the yard as well. In class I stopped because a halt was called & because he was so far out front he missed the footwork & kept trucking along for about 10ft until he realized I wasn't there. He looked kind of shocked lol. We've done lots of rally but now that I'm not talking so much we are losing connection. 

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## poolann

Thank you Lily.

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## lily cd re

poolann said:


> Thanks mvhplank. I will look into those resources. I will also try stopping in the yard as well. In class I stopped because a halt was called & because he was so far out front he missed the footwork & kept trucking along for about 10ft until he realized I wasn't there. He looked kind of shocked lol. We've done lots of rally but now that I'm not talking so much we are losing connection.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Fade your talking to Racer, don't just drop it all together. Class is for teaching him and you should give him information. Treat a match like a trial until something goes off, then give corrective information. This way you will strengthen your connection and reinforce his understanding to be ready for trials.


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## lily cd re

poolann we seem to be replying to each other in overlapping time frames. Too funny!


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## lily cd re

So we tested our utility obedience this weekend. Moving stand for exam was fine. The articles were really good. The second day Lily tried to kill the glove instead of bringing it to me, but she took the correct glove both days. I think I can take care of that little issue with no problem.

My big problem continues to be the away work. She does lovely go outs in places that are familiar, but hasn't yet generalized it to other places. She also continues to creep in on the drop signal when in a new place.

My plan is to drive around with my ring gates and jumps in the back of my truck all summer and stop whenever I have enough time to haul them out and set them up on a tennis court at a school or a fenced in basketball court early enough in the day that no one is on it and to work go outs and signals. 

Does anyone have any other ideas?


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> <snip>My plan is to drive around with my ring gates and jumps in the back of my truck all summer and stop whenever I have enough time to haul them out and set them up on a tennis court at a school or a fenced in basketball court early enough in the day that no one is on it and to work go outs and signals.
> 
> Does anyone have any other ideas?


That's an excellent idea--my training friend Judy (she has a mini poodle) and her mother used to do that most evenings to train their dogs. They set up on grass, I think, since many obedience trials were outdoors at that time. Practicing on grass will add an additional level to generalize, and a new set of distractions for your dog to overcome (work the easier behaviors in highly distracting situations until she is giving you more attention).

Judy's mom (now sadly at the Rainbow Bridge with her horses and dogs) took THREE dogs from Novice to Utility titles between the ages of 6 months and a year. (There used to be a special award for that, ages ago.) I think they were GSDs, which they raised at the time. Judy bought a white standard poodle with her first paycheck and took him to utility--but not quite that fast!


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## lily cd re

I wish we were getting there sooner! I finished CDX with Lily right at the end of 2012 and now here we are in 2014 still struggling with issues in utility. She is only five though, so there is time!


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## lily cd re

*regaining focus*

Since things have been so hectic with MIL because of the eye surgery complications I have not really paid the kind of effort I need to with Lily on obedience in the last couple of weeks. It shows badly. Tuesday I took her to my obedience club. There weren't many of us there for utility so we worked in paris to run routines for each other. Lily was very easily distracted, did lots of sniffing and wanted to go visit with everybody else, rather than pay attention to me. My friend who worked with me (also a spoo person) put it quite well when he commented that she was working for herself and not for me.

I have decided on a course of "tough love" with no flirting allowed and corrections for sniffing beyond verbal, not rough handling, just going over and taking her by the collar to lift her head up. I also spent a lot of time on asking for look and rewarding redirecting attention to me. I asked my mom who was there for novice to wait for me today so I would have a very high level distraction of mom and Wolfie. We actually made some good progress and there were lots of distractions since it was an all poodle working day at the club this morning. In addition to Lily there was one other spoo and two minis for open my mom and her boy for novice and another mini with us in utility. Lily knows all the people who were there too.

Does any of you have other remedies to suggest for this sort of issue?


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## mvhplank

*refocusing*

I like the results I'm getting with the "work is a privilege" and "It's Yer Choice" approaches. Visit Denise Fenzi's blog and read through many entries--she helpfully provides a lot of videos illustrating training. 

"It's Yer Choice" is Susan Garrett's method to teach the dog self-control and to learn through occasional failures. 

Denise Fenzi (a multiple OTCH winner), for example, would put the sniffing dog in a crate briefly for a time out and work another dog, or the invisible dog Fred. She would allow a puppy to sniff without interference but reward enthusiastically when it returns to you for attention. 

Susan Garrett's methods are also force-free, reinforcing the dog for good choices. She's a multiple world champion in agility. There are also plenty of free videos of her methods on the web.

My concern with physical "corrections" is that the dog will lose enthusiasm and interest, and find a way to act out when corrections cannot be delivered--as in the obedience ring. The methods I'm exploring appear to produce happy dogs who find "mom" more fascinating than anything else in the environment.


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## lily cd re

Marguerite thank you for those suggestions. I am very familiar with Susan Garrett and Denise Fenzi, but haven't looked at their material recently. I should give myself a refresher. 

When I took Lily by the collar yesterday I was very gentle and spoke to her very sweetly to say let's get back to work. She responded quite well and her work improved substantially during the time I was in the ring, but utility does really require a confident dog so I do want to take care to keep her normally excellent and enthusiastic working qualities fresh and happy.


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> <snip>When I took Lily by the collar yesterday I was very gentle and spoke to her very sweetly to say let's get back to work.</snip>


Aha! Garrett has a "collar grab" game to turn grabbing the collar into something fun and not something to dodge--good for safety, among other things. Basically, grab the collar, pull the dog to your leg (I pull to heel position), and simultaneously put a high-value treat in the dog's mouth. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. She says that the dog will eventually start to "offer you her neck." 

Enjoy reviewing the blogs and videos!

Marguerite


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## lily cd re

Yeah, actually she is pretty used to having my hand on her collar and doesn't duck away, but I will make sure that as I use doing so "correctively" to remind her it is all good. I don't use much food but I am generous with praise and pets and play as rewards.

The reason I don't use too much food is that I ruined go out with it about a year and a half ago. Go out had come to mean go look for food over there. I wasn't able to fade using it with any success so I left working on it aside for a couple of months, changed go out into fly away and started from scratch with no food. Part of my problem is the last couple of weeks is that instead of sitting when I tell her to, Lily has been shopping down at that end of the ring looking for crumbs missed by other dogs. Many people at my club use way too much food IMO. Someone who was there recently fed probably over 1/4 of a cup of liverwurst to a small dog during just the short time of a routine (and the dog is chunky!).


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> The reason I don't use too much food is that I ruined go out with it about a year and a half ago.


I was able to fade food for Devlin (the rat terrier) in the go-out by switching it to delivered by me instead of his finding it by the stanchion. You already know, I'm sure, not to lump too many behaviors together--f'r instance, don't ask for the go-out, sit, jump over there all at the beginning. So I'd send him out, tell him to sit, and deliver the food to him, leave, and ask for the jump in a separate request.

It's my understanding that food helps build enthusiasm, which the dog will associate with the behavior and not the reward (if trained and faded properly). I think of it as a "paycheck" instead of a "bribe."

Marguerite


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## lily cd re

I do use food when teaching something new and when I returned to go out as fly away I always took food out to Lily if she did a good one rather than letting me find it. Part of the problem is that we have a "cheese stanchion" at the club and it must really smell very cheesy since Lily often goes to check it out and look on the floor near it for crumbs. We had a trial at the club a couple of weeks ago so the cheese stanchion has been taken out and nobody has thought to put it back yet which is fine by me.

I also think of treats or play as a paycheck, but also think Lily understands well enough at this point that the paycheck sometimes gets lost in the mail for a few minutes. The small dog that ate all the liverwurst yesterday has already been trialing in utility so for me I would give the paycheck at the end of the performance as would occur in a trial if I were taking a routine. If I was working on trying to improve something and got my picture of perfection as a response I would reward right away with food, pets and praise for that.


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## mvhplank

*Paychecks and behavior chains*

Here you go--part one in Denise Fenzi's 8-part blog series on behavior chains. I'll be interested to hear what you think, especially if you tried any parts.

Behavior chains – Part 1: The Basics | Denise Fenzi

She includes a lot of videos, but watch out for videos that are actually ads on the blog. They're fairly easy to spot, once you know they're there.


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## lily cd re

Marguerite I will check it out when I am home. The network I am on right now (in a hotel) is really slow. Thanks for the link.


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## lily cd re

The tough love strategy has worked really well. I took a utility routine yesterday and while we waited for our turn (got there really early) I worked on keeping Lily's attention and showing her that the only rewards would be from me. She did a great routine. Even the things she has a hard time with (the go out and the drop signal) were really good. The go outs were nice and straight with good prompt turn and sits, no shopping for crumbs. The drop signal was responded to promptly and with just a half step from one front foot!

We have a trial this weekend with match time possibilities. Even if we don't qualify I think we will have great practice time out of it.I am viewing this trip as an expensive match, but will be more than a little thrilled to get a leg in utility.


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## lily cd re

*made a breakthrough with signals*

Lily and I were at a three day set of rally and obedience trials this weekend. Even though I knew we wouldn't qualify in utility I entered so I could evaluate how things are coming along. doing matches at my club isn't really telling me much, so this was like a very expensive match.

Anyway this club offers practice time in the late afternoon on Friday and Saturday. When we did our practice time on Saturday a friend from my club helped me by acting as a judge to give orders. She told me to put Lily back at where she was supposed to have dropped when she crept in on the signal. Well that has really helped. I worked on signals in the hall at my hotel on Saturday night and got her to drop in place at about 40' away. In the Sunday trial she only took two steps in before dropping. This still isn't good enough but was way better than having her five feet away from me before she dropped or not getting a drop at all.

Even better (hopefully) I took her to work with me last night and did signals in the long hall where my office is before class. I got her to drop in place at about 60' away (way more than you need in a trial). I also did signals with heavy distractions while my students were working in lab. I got the whole sequence of signals at about 30' with 15 people milling around and talking! 

I think I am going to apply the same concept to the go out. I will take Lily and ring gates out and send her. If she stops before I want her to I will go up to where she stops and guide her gently by the collar to the target spot and sit her then leave. 

I know she understands what she is supposed to do since she does it in places where she is comfortable. Maybe we are really close to getting a qualifying routine together.


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## lily cd re

*proposed AKC rule changes*

The Obedience Advisory Committee of the AKC has formulated a set of proposed rules changes. Comments are being taken until August 20th. Here are links to the description of the proposed changes and the form for making comments.

http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/obedience/2014_OAC_Fancy.pdf

AKC 2014 Obedience Advisory Committee - Recommendations


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## CharismaticMillie

Very interesting, thanks for posting this! What are your thoughts on the changes?


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## mvhplank

Thanks! Someone had shared it by email or Facebook and I replied already.

It looks like an interesting set of changes and makes it more inclusive for dogs that have issues with stays.


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## lily cd re

CharismaticMillie I like some of it and don't care much for other parts. I like that they are reducing the number of stays to one. I also like adding the recall over the jump for novice. I am not so sure that an exam is the best thing to put into open to replace the second stay. There isn't much description of what kind of exam it is (moving vs. stationary, novice type or more like utility). I think maybe something with a glove could make it more interesting for the dog. I like that deaf dogs will be allowed to compete. I like that you can ask to leave the ring with a mark of NQ rather than excused.

I am very concerned about the change numbered 4.i.: "revise hand position for the heel free exercise: Hands must be held in a natural position; any position or movement of hands and or arms that the judge considers an aid to the dog will be penalized." for me I heel with my hand held at my waist not hanging at my left side. The height combination for me and Lily is such that if my arm is hanging free at my side I whack her in the face. If I hold my arm close to my left side to avoid colliding with her then I suspect I may get penalized for holding my hand like a target. Do you think you could have the same concern with Tiger?


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## lily cd re

mvhplank said:


> Thanks! Someone had shared it by email or Facebook and I replied already.
> 
> It looks like an interesting set of changes and makes it more inclusive for dogs that have issues with stays.


If you are on FaceBook join the group Ring Tested Obedience to see lengthy discussions of many aspects of the proposed changes. 

Marguerite my issue with they stays is that (at least near me) the days of leaving your dog on a sit or down stay while you pop into the corner store for a newspaper and a cup of coffee are long gone, so this exercise has very little to do with anything a dog might actually be expected to do in "real life." I think one group stay is sufficient to show the dog has impulse control.

I also think that if your dog can't do a stay around another group of dogs you probably should think twice about taking that dog into that situation. This is why Peeves in now a rally dog. He is not reliable on formal stays unless I can talk to him. I think he would do it for BF but he doesn't like dogs shows so it is on me to do stuff with him and I won't risk having something happen by pretending he can control his desire to visit other dogs.


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> <snip>I think one group stay is sufficient to show the dog has impulse control.
> 
> I also think that if your dog can't do a stay around another group of dogs you probably should think twice about taking that dog into that situation. This is why Peeves in now a rally dog.</snip>


Hi Catherine,

I may have mentioned before the obedience venue of Companion Dog Sports Program (CDSP), which has no group stays at all, you can talk to your dog (except during Signals), and you can treat between exercises (very specifically, though--after the judge says "Exercise finished" and before you take a single step to start the next exercise). 

A lot of folks in our area still have their sights on AKC and UKC titles and use CDSP as an intermediate step. But there are also folks with reactive or fearful dogs that would not be able to complete a title in a venue with stays. That describes my rat terrier Devlin. An out-of-sight stay seems to be more than he can handle. We are working toward a CDSP Utility title, but honesty compels me to say we have not yet had a Q. 

Oh--there is one stay in the venue. It was recently changed from an honor stay to an AKC BN-style stay in the middle (sit or down, handler's choice) while the handler circles the ring.

Full disclosure--I'm a judge for all levels in CDSP. I'm not going to dis Rally, either, since I'm a new provisional Rally judge for UKC (and thank you, Devlin, for earning the titles that gave me the right to apply).

Also, thank for the tip about the Facebook group. I'll go check it out.


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## lily cd re

Hi Marguerite, Yes you did mention CDSP to me and we have a fairly active interest in CDSP in my area. I haven't pursued it since I have enough of a hard time keeping the rules for one venue straight in my head. I did dabble in APDT/WCR rally with Lily way back, but never continued as it was too much juggling dates too. That is also one of the reasons I don't do CPE agility anymore either (aside from different equipment criteria). I think if I were a newbie I would be more interested in exploring CDSP, but I am not enough of a "title hog" to go looking at all other venues right now. I like the titles that go on their names too.


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## lily cd re

We have had a couple of different conversations about the proposed rules changes at my club this week. There are mixed views among our members about a number of things. Some people are really happy to see the number of stays changed to one, but others really think that the things that will go in the place of the taken away stay are dopey. 

There were a number of us with large dogs there today who particularly focused on the natural arm position for heeling. One person with a terv has always had her left hand hang at her side, so she didn't care. The rest of us heel with our left hand at our waist and all were concerned. I worked on heeling with my hand down and had a lot of lagging at first. Then I put a treat in my left hand. I let Lily nibble at it as we went along. After she finished it she actually stayed in position well even with my hand down. I guess if it changes I won't have too hard a time making sure she will stay the right distance out from my side not to get smacked in the face.

On a different note, my tough love policy for the things she has been blowing me off on is paying off. The signals are light years better and today I got good go outs. Since she loves to jump I didn't let her do the jumps until the very end after she had done five good independent full distance go outs.


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