# Sigh. It finally happened. Peggy and her BFF...



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Some of you warned me that the bliss of puppyhood friendship might eventually sour, but I didn’t want to believe it.

Today we had our weekly play date. Everything seemed normal and then whoa! My poodle turned into Cujo! She was snarling and snapping and trying to pin down her friend-since-puppy-class, the Briard. I have never seen her like that before.

The Briard’s owner grabbed Peggy by the neck and literally dragged her off. Peggy went still and then actually tried to continue fighting. We were all in shock.

I took Peggy and held her collar until she settled, and then we let play resume, hoping it was just a weird blip. Again, things seemed normal or at least normal-ish. They were laying in the grass together, running big circles, pausing for a sniff, all normal stuff, but I noticed the Briard trying to bite Peggy’s scruff, which she never does. And there was none of the silly bouncing I usually see from Peggy. As we should have expected, the fun again abruptly shifted to snarling and we ended the session. Even my husband was taken aback by Peggy’s demeanour. It’s eerie seeing your very sweet poodle transform like that.

Will they ever be able to play again? The Briard is about to go into her second heat. Could that have been part of it? She actually peed on herself at some point during the first scuffle, and her owner said things were strange between her and another buddy recently. She’s such a strong, confident, silent girl. It _seemed_ like Peggy was the instigator, but I’m sure there was stuff going on between them that we just couldn’t see.

I would be very sad if Peggy stopped being dog social. She’ll be two years old in a few weeks, which I know can be a transitional period. The Briard is a few months younger. Even if they don’t continue playing weekly, I don’t want to be afraid Peggy’s going to attack another dog. That’s such a disturbing thought. I wonder what would have happened if we hadn’t intervened??


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

It could be related to the heat, but it's also just common in these situations. I don't think it means anything in terms of them being dog social. Misha is very dog social but does not like his childhood buddy. They are both friendly with other dogs. Same situation with another pair of same age female bulldogs I know.

I'm sorry. I remember feeling the same way. You just want them to be buddies forever.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Both dogs are young adults
Both dogs are intact females.
Peggy is slightly older
The Briard might be going into heat
My guess is some combination of hormones and age has upset the dominance level they previously agreed upon. It's not the first time female dogs have failed to get along ; there is a reason "bitch" is slang for an ill-tempered woman. I also wonder if Peggy is still a bit shook up from the Dogo incident. 

Does your play group include any well mannered boys that Peggy gets along with?


----------



## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Just saw this graphic about dog sociability on a trainer's web site.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would not continue these play dates. When bitches decide they don't want to be friends anymore it is not uncommon for the fighting to be in the red zone such that at least one of the dogs wants to kill the other. Had you not intervened the fighting would most likely have escalated, one or both could have been severely injured or worse and one or both would have ended up with PTSD.

Not for me...sorry this happened (but I am not so surprised). I hope they are both okay.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

For what it's worth, the bulldogs I know are both (I think) spayed and it still occurred. One was spayed quite early. Both are still at the park every day but they avoid eachother.

When Misha became mature (approaching 2 years) he became what I would say is _mostly_ dog social. He does not put up with rudeness anymore and will tell other dogs off. He especially does not want young males trying to dominate him. He can still behave himself around other dogs, but he does require some management. If another dog is continually annoying him I take him elsewhere. If his puppy hood friend is around, I stay away from him and have Misha stay by my side if we pass them. If we encounter a very rude young adolescent male I preemptively recall Misha so they will not conflict. I have to watch who is around and make sure it is a crowd Misha fits well with. If it isn't, we go off on our own. I think this is a fairly acceptable level of dog sociality. I have to know what Misha's triggers are and be able to counter situations that aren't good for him. When he started to mature and started correcting dogs I was very sad at first because I'd hoped he would just stay that super friendly puppy. But in reality that's not really realistic to expect of an animal. I know I wouldn't expect that of myself. I think it's important to have reasonable expectations and also realize that training may be a part of it. We are still working on training conflict avoidance and a recall to me when there is conflict. But I am confident that we have made progress. I am also looking forward to a drop in hormones as he ages!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Does your play group include any well mannered boys that Peggy gets along with?


Two, but one was not there today. I wonder if that was a factor. He’s usually the one the Briard focuses on.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I would not continue these play dates. When bitches decide they don't want to be friends anymore it is not uncommon for the fighting to be in the red zone such that at least one of the dogs wants to kill the other. Had you not intervened the fighting would most likely have escalated, one or both could have been severely injured or worse and one or both would have ended up with PTSD.
> 
> Not for me...sorry this happened (but I am not so surprised). I hope they are both okay.


They are supposed to be in a class together on Thursday evening, our first since covid shut everything down. Do you think that’s okay? There’s no interaction.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> I'm sorry. I remember feeling the same way. You just want them to be buddies forever.


And these get-togethers were so good for the humans, too. Bummer.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I think cowpony's list of possible triggers is pretty bang on...
And where did this happen? Was it in your yard (or the Briard's), by chance? Raffi has now chased two dogs off our yard, left a couple very minor punctures in the second one (neighbor's dog escaped). But he is fine with dogs anywhere else.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> They are supposed to be in a class together on Thursday evening, our first since covid shut everything down. Do you think that’s okay? There’s no interaction.


Yes, in fact I would think that having them see each other soon where they are under control would be a good thing. Practice being calm around each other again. As long as it's possible to give them as much distance as they need.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Starvt said:


> I think cowpony's list of possible triggers is pretty bang on...
> And where did this happen? Was it in your yard (or the Briard's), by chance? Raffi has now chased two dogs off our yard, left a couple very minor punctures in the second one (neighbor's dog escaped). But he is fine with dogs anywhere else.


Neutral territory, but they had a blast on our property a couple of weeks ago. Three hours, zero scuffles.




cowpony said:


> I also wonder if Peggy is still a bit shook up from the Dogo incident.


I considered this, too, but they’ve played multiple times since then. She _was_ at the beach for a few hours on Sunday, though, and saw lots of dogs, some of which were super rude. And a neighbour’s dog recently ran onto our property and wouldn’t leave her alone. The owners were too afraid to intervene because apparently he bites. So....they left it up to us. Fun! Maybe Peggy’s tolerance for transgressions is a little depleted.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Starvt said:


> Yes, in fact I would think that having them see each other soon where they are under control would be a good thing. Practice being calm around each other again. As long as it's possible to give them as much distance as they need.


Oh that’s good. Thanks for your perspective. They were very calm when we ended the play session, which actually kinda creeped me out. Apparently things can go from 0 to 60—and then right back down to 0—in mere seconds.

I’ll make sure they’re well apart in class.


----------



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm glad you all know more about poodle female dog hormones. It's unchartered territory. Our only 2 playfriends are females, so i'll try to keepy my eyes out for behavior changes.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Is it possible that Peggy has an injury of some sort - perhaps just a stiff neck? The Briard's heat plus too much hassle from rude dogs already this week is the most probable explanation, I think, but I would check for sore spots or stiff muscles just in case.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Instead of playing in a fenced-in yard, try taking them for a walk together.

As a puppy Mia had several friends from puppy class with whom she would romp happily for hours in a fenced-in yard, while the humans had a beer (or three). As the pups aged and became more selective, we discovered that they still played well together when engaged in more purposeful activity. They did fine in class together (we split private agility lessons with one family) and they did well when walking off-lead in the woods or on-lead through the neighborhood. This is also the origin of our swim dates at the lake.

As others said above, don't let them rehearse this behavior. It was not a one-off event and it will persist. Don't waste your energy apportioning blame between the dogs. Instead, manage them by shaping the time they spend together by giving them a purpose.

ETA: A trainer once told me that "All dogs are happy being the only dog, but only some dogs are happy sharing a home."


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I think its because you have two females that are intact both striving for the alpha role. Just like when people in one household have two female dogs. With boxers it seldom works well and dogs have to be rotated and/or supervised. Usually walking together is not a problem and I don't see a problem at your class either. When your in class or walking they know you are the one in control and they don't compete with each other.


----------



## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I have nothing to add as I virtually know nothing about female dogs but I would guess the hormones had something to do with it. Sounds so scary and disappointing, not with the dogs themselves but the situation. I feel bad for you guys and I hope you can figure out a way to continue Peggy’s friendship with her special Briard friend even if it means you will have to readjust things such as doing walks together. Will the Briard be spayed at some point? I know Peggy’s spay is coming up. I wonder if having both girls spayed will make a difference as long as they don’t rehearse the behavior prior to that time. I really wish you guys the best outcome for this situation.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

PeggyTheParti said:


> They are supposed to be in a class together on Thursday evening, our first since covid shut everything down. Do you think that’s okay? There’s no interaction.


Class should be fine, just make sure they are kept distant and watch the body language (don't allow prolonged eye contact, watch for leaning forwards, tight lips, ears pressed close to the head and such). It would be great if they showed each other calming signals like turning their backs to each other.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> Is it possible that Peggy has an injury of some sort - perhaps just a stiff neck? The Briard's heat plus too much hassle from rude dogs already this week is the most probable explanation, I think, but I would check for sore spots or stiff muscles just in case.


I wondered if her sore paw from last week was flaring up, but she’s paid it no attention at all. And she played fine with the other two dogs that were there. But I’ll check her out thoroughly again today. She was pulled quite roughly from the fray, so it’s possible she’ll be feeling that a bit.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Spottytoes said:


> I have nothing to add as I virtually know nothing about female dogs but I would guess the hormones had something to do with it. Sounds so scary and disappointing, not with the dogs themselves but the situation. I feel bad for you guys and I hope you can figure out a way to continue Peggy’s friendship with her special Briard friend even if it means you will have to readjust things such as doing walks together. Will the Briard be spayed at some point? I know Peggy’s spay is coming up. I wonder if having both girls spayed will make a difference as long as they don’t rehearse the behavior prior to that time. I really wish you guys the best outcome for this situation.


I’m not sure when she’ll be spayed, but Peggy’s surgery is on the 27th. I’m really struggling with the idea that our weekly play dates are over.  But they served their purpose through the first year of covid and I am grateful for that. Just wish we could have ended things on a better note.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Mufar42 said:


> I think its because you have two females that are intact both striving for the alpha role. Just like when people in one household have two female dogs. With boxers it seldom works well and dogs have to be rotated and/or supervised. Usually walking together is not a problem and I don't see a problem at your class either. When your in class or walking they know you are the one in control and they don't compete with each other.


I assumed there’d be some warning signs that things were becoming untenable, but I suppose their ages alone were a pretty good indicator. I agree there was likely a power struggle going on that was mostly lost on us humans. I did note it was odd the Briard was biting Peggy’s scruff when she’d never have previously dared. But I didn’t see any of Peggy’s usual efforts to defuse tension. Maybe it all just happened too fast. I’m sure a slow-motion replay would reveal all.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Instead of playing in a fenced-in yard, try taking them for a walk together.
> 
> As a puppy Mia had several friends from puppy class with whom she would romp happily for hours in a fenced-in yard, while the humans had a beer (or three). As the pups aged and became more selective, we discovered that they still played well together when engaged in more purposeful activity. They did fine in class together (we split private agility lessons with one family) and they did well when walking off-lead in the woods or on-lead through the neighborhood. This is also the origin of our swim dates at the lake.
> 
> ...


Did Mia ever engage in similarly alarming squabbles? I’ve seen it between some of the other dogs on occasion, but I think we were all just taken aback by Peggy. She has a reputation as a peacekeeper.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Yep. The first time was quite a surprise, and it's really hard to say why it starts. It's tempting to blame the dog on top (or the dog who barks first), but that obscures the trigger. Dogs are so fast and so subtle that it's impossible to catch in real time, but it will happen again if you don't manage it.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> Yep. The first time was quite a surprise, and it's really hard to say why it starts. It's tempting to blame the dog on top (or the dog who barks first), but that obscures the trigger. Dogs are so fast and so subtle that it's impossible to catch in real time, but it will happen again if you don't manage it.


Such a good point. I do believe there was a trigger and I’ll probably just have to be okay with never knowing what it was.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Biting on the neck is never a good thing. If Lily starts to try to bite Javelin on the neck I know she is not feeling the play just then and I always break it up and watch them the rest of the day. They never really fight, but that is because I never let either of them boss the other one around. I am the boss.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Biting on the neck is never a good thing. If Lily starts to try to bite Javelin on the neck I know she is not feeling thee play just then and I always break it up and watch them the rest of the day. They never really fight, but that is because I never let either of them boss the other one around. I am the boss.


That’s good to know. Wish I’d stepped in sooner.

The Briard often bites the neck of another dog (a neutered male) that wasn’t there yesterday. Peggy is usually the one to break it up and maybe I’ve let her play that role too long.

One of the other dogs can be a big humper, but he tried it only once on Peggy and never again. Her corrections have never needed to escalate.


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I assumed there’d be some warning signs that things were becoming untenable, but I suppose their ages alone were a pretty good indicator. I agree there was likely a power struggle going on that was mostly lost on us humans. I did note it was odd the Briard was biting Peggy’s scruff when she’d never have previously dared. But I didn’t see any of Peggy’s usual efforts to defuse tension. Maybe it all just happened too fast. I’m sure a slow-motion replay would reveal all.


and could have just been an off day for them but I'd probably do as previously said for now just take walks together and attend class. That way it doesn't come "something". You know Peggy quite well so go with what your gut says.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

In the US this sort of selectivity is deemed common and even normal, but I'm told it's quite rare to see in Europe. I don't know if North American breeders inadvertently bred this particular type of reactivity into our dogs, or if there are other lifestyle factors at fault, but it is something you have to watch for here.

You don't have to give up playdates, but you do need to structure them differently:

Avoid enclosed environments (e.g. indoors, fenced-in areas)
Avoid items that could trigger resource guarding (e.g. treats, toys)
Give them a purpose (e.g. walking, retrieving)


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

So Liz what should they retrieve in that setting then? Balls definitely are a guardable resource in Lily's world view.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

With Misha, the issue was hierarchy based. When young, he was the bigger older puppy with clear advantage. But his playmate grew up. When he tried to play the same way, it was not appreciated. Misha did not understand that his friend had changed. My guess is that something similar happened here where the Briard started taking a more dominant role and Peggy eventually snapped. The briard going into heat could have made her behave more dominantly. But I do not think this is only a problem for intact dogs. Intact dogs may just be more likely to stand up for themselves.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> So Liz what should they retrieve in that setting then? Balls definitely are a guardable resource in Lily's world view.


It depends on the dogs. In general we found sticks and bumpers to work well for her friend group. However, one dog has a special bumper that is all his, and the owners do not bring it to the lake. Mia doesn't guard toys, but high value treats can be a trigger for her, so I either don't bring treats or bring low value treats to the lake. You've identified balls as a trigger for Lily, so I would leave them at home.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Liz said:


> In the US this sort of selectivity is deemed common and even normal, but I'm told it's quite rare to see in Europe. I don't know if North American breeders inadvertently bred this particular type of reactivity into our dogs, or if there are other lifestyle factors at fault, but it is something you have to watch for here.
> 
> You don't have to give up playdates, but you do need to structure them differently:
> 
> ...


Just guessing here, but I think American dogs are often kept removed from everyday life and then plunged into it, back and forth and back and forth. All or nothing. Plus, they’re more commonly leashed. So they learn about the world while tethered, which I can imagine fundamentally shapes their relationship to it. Lots of stress and frustration, and inhibition of their natural body language and social rituals.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> With Misha, the issue was hierarchy based. When young, he was the bigger older puppy with clear advantage. But his playmate grew up. When he tried to play the same way, it was not appreciated. Misha did not understand that his friend had changed. My guess is that something similar happened here where the Briard started taking a more dominant role and Peggy eventually snapped. The briard going into heat could have made her behave more dominantly. But I do not think this is only a problem for intact dogs. Intact dogs may just be more likely to stand up for themselves.


Yeah, the Briard could even have been refusing well-rehearsed behaviours from Peggy and that pushed Peggy over the edge. So wish I had a video replay!! Up until now I’ve never worried about her interactions with other dogs. It’s scary to think she could actually hurt one, but I guess I was naive not to realize that was always a possibility—that it’s a possibility with any dog.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

At least in the German and Scandinavian areas, it seems dogs get out more. Plus there is less social tolerance for owners who fail to properly manage their dogs. On my trips there I saw dogs riding busses, trains, and ferries quite a bit. I didn't see many dog problems. 

Once, when I was taking a walk along a stream that marks the Swiss German border a happy little dog ran up to me. I was unperturbed; the dog was small, cute, and friendly. The owner came puffing up after it emitting a stream of apologetic German. My high school German is so far in the past that all I could really understand was the phrase "terrible dog" repeated over and over. If this was a schrecklicher Hund, I can't imagine someone would describe the typical American dog.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> At least in the German and Scandinavian areas, it seems dogs get out more. Plus there is less social tolerance for owners who fail to properly manage their dogs. On my trips there I saw dogs riding busses, trains, and ferries quite a bit. I didn't see many dog problems.
> 
> Once, when I was taking a walk along a stream that marks the Swiss German border a happy little dog ran up to me. I was unperturbed; the dog was small, cute, and friendly. The owner came puffing up after it emitting a stream of apologetic German. My high school German is so far in the past that all I could really understand was the phrase "terrible dog" repeated over and over. If this was a schrecklicher Hund, I can't imagine someone would describe the typical American dog.


Ugh. Comparing that to the scene I witnessed at the beach Sunday is just depressing. Here it seems the more a dog needs to be leashed or kept home altogether, the more freedom they’re given to terrorize the public.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Worth reposting: Why Are European Dogs so Well Behaved?


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Ugh. Comparing that to the scene I witnessed at the beach Sunday is just depressing. Here it seems the more a dog needs to be leashed or kept home altogether, the more freedom they’re given to terrorize the public.


Let's be honest, many people now smile as their children behave poorly in public with a 'isn't she cute?' look. Of course, we don't control our dogs.

Every time my neighbor hides behind a bush so her labradoodle won't go ballistic at Normie, I want to say "he needs help."


----------



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Okay, I'm trusting you all. We're going to mix up our playdates now. I told Basil's freinds mom that I was worried about the girls jockeying for alpha female and someone going too far, so we need to have an on-leash playdate to communicate to them that Mom and Dad are in charge. We briefly talked about possible ideas and determined that we're up for it.

It sounds totally legit and I'm going on blind faith.

Basil, intact female SPOO, 1 year old 43# has had her first heat already.
Earl, intact female SPOO, 8 months old, 53#, has *not* had her first heat yet.

Here's the two girls wrestling today.

























We play fetch with them too A LOT, wrestling only happens for like 10-15 minutes for the hour session.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

That could be a good plan, Basil, to break up the wrestling with a short walk around the neighborhood.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Basil thanks for sharing those pictures. The first one, what I call poodle boxing is something Lily and Javelin do very frequently and it shows them on entirely even footing. The other two are a bit concerning since each of them has done something to cover the other. In the 2nd pic the friend is trying to send Basil a calming signal (turning/looking away) while Basil is covering her friend's shoulders with one (really both) of her front legs. When Javelin does that to Lily she will react to him, if he doesn't back down I make him stop. Lily is old (almost 13) and he outweighs her by at least 10 pounds. Also he isn't listening to her in that state so he has to listen to me and I make him take a break (even if just for 15 seconds) until he shows me a calming signal (I like a down). Personally in the 3rd picture I think the friend is being really rude by covering Basil so completely but since I can only see the capture of a second I am not so sure how big a problem that might be. Not a big deal if the friend fell onto Basil and immediately got off her. If it was a purposeful move I would think of that as a moment to make them take a break.


----------



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Liz said:


> That could be a good plan, Basil, to break up the wrestling with a short walk around the neighborhood.


We'll try that too! That's a great idea. I was thinking of just a "walking playdate", but I think you have a good idea too. It would be like a cool down. I like the idea of having a new stimulus or change of "norm" with the same social. Which is why I love spotsniff. A new yard each time with the same friend.



lily cd re said:


> Basil thanks for sharing those pictures. The first one, what I call poodle boxing is something Lily and Javelin do very frequently and it shows them on entirely even footing. The other two are a bit concerning since each of them has done something to cover the other. In the 2nd pic the friend is trying to send Basil a calming signal (turning/looking away) while Basil is covering her friend's shoulders with one (really both) of her front legs. When Javelin does that to Lily she will react to him, if he doesn't back down I make him stop. Lily is old (almost 13) and he outweighs her by at least 10 pounds. Also he isn't listening to her in that state so he has to listen to me and I make him take a break (even if just for 15 seconds) until he shows me a calming signal (I like a down). Personally in the 3rd picture I think the friend is being really rude by covering Basil so completely but since I can only see the capture of a second I am not so sure how big a problem that might be. Not a big deal if the friend fell onto Basil and immediately got off her. If it was a purposeful move I would think of that as a moment to make them take a break.


I have this potato camera footage from yesterday:






From another day:









Basil and Earl standard poodle playdate 4/28







youtube.com





For sure. It's not an intentional pin. It's the "I fell on you" on accidentally situation. Earl is in really good physical conditioning because she and Mom clock 10k+ steps/day. So, Basil normally gassed at this point and 10 pounds lighter. We seperate the girls when Basil starts to show signs of exhaustion aggravation so they both can catch their breath and get a sip of water. Then we'll distract them with a sqeaky ball and they may not go back at it for another round of poodle boxing. 

We're both first time poodle parents, so we're somewhat inexperienced and in progression, but not unengaged.

I use general experience from childhood to know when roughhousing escalates to socking eachother in the face. Lol. We obviously don't want poodle tempers to flare and intervene when it we hear or see signs of one girl getting hot.


----------



## JillO (Apr 15, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Some of you warned me that the bliss of puppyhood friendship might eventually sour, but I didn’t want to believe it.
> 
> Today we had our weekly play date. Everything seemed normal and then whoa! My poodle turned into Cujo! She was snarling and snapping and trying to pin down her friend-since-puppy-class, the Briard. I have never seen her like that before.
> 
> ...


Is no one going to state the obvious, here? I’m sure I’ll be pinned as a breed-ist, or elitist, but “party/parti-colored”, aren’t exactly known for coming out of ethical breeding hobby kennels. 
Just like labradoodles and goldendoodles, they are bred for the purpose of sales, nothing more. There’s no breed standard these “breeders”, are adhering to. Breed golden to Poodle, breed party color to party color = expensive mutt with no health guarantee ,& DEFINITELY not bred for temperament! I realize party color Poodles are poodles, but they are flawed in the sense of genetics. Thus, they cannot be shown for confirmation. 
Why would you be shocked when the dog becomes dog aggressive, when it came from less than stellar beginnings?


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Because it's not helpful, @JillO . On this board we don't waste time chastising owners for past decisions; we help them navigate current and future choices. All of us have made mistakes with our dogs, and most of us have opened up here about what we wish had done differently for the benefit of ourselves and others. There's no sense in rehashing these mistakes on every post. The question is how to help the owner move forward from where they are, not where they might have been.

In this case, the owner is well aware of her dog's background and has worked admirably hard at curbing unwanted behaviors. This post is one of many where she's come for advice, not blame. She's been an exemplary member here and is well loved, as is her darling - and highly photogenic - poodle.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

@JillO On top of what Liz has said, Parti poodles are well represented in breed history and accepted in UKC shows. There are many high quality parti breeders that show their dogs in conformation as well as performance sports. The standard they breed to is identical to the solid standard aside from color.

Anyway the issue at hand is not at all associated with poor temperament or breeding. As I've said, my own dog went through the same thing and he is a solid black dog of quality show lines.

On this forum we look forward, not backward. Peggy has had a whole lot of training and her owners are extremely committed poodle parents who did their best to source a quality dog with the knowledge they had.

No dog is perfect. Some of the best dogs out there came from poor beginnings and worked through many issues.


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

It’s pretty obvious there’s more than one dog club.
It’s pretty obvious that parti has been in the breed longer than there has been a breed standard.
It’s pretty obvious that one incident does not make a dog “dog aggressive”.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Goodness, I love you two. (_Edit: And you, too, Ellen!_) Poodle Forum is the best.

Tonight we head to our first class in almost a year. Hoping for no bad blood between Peggy and the Briard. Will keep them apart and focused on working.

My biggest fear, of course, is that this is the start of dog aggression. I’m not sure I’ve seen anything that would point to that, but as we approach Peggy’s spay surgery on May 27th, my anxiety is ratcheting up up up. I will be trying very hard to focus on constructive advice until then and in the days after.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

JillO said:


> Is no one going to state the obvious, here? I’m sure I’ll be pinned as a breed-ist, or elitist, but “party/parti-colored”, aren’t exactly known for coming out of ethical breeding hobby kennels.
> Just like labradoodles and goldendoodles, they are bred for the purpose of sales, nothing more. There’s no breed standard these “breeders”, are adhering to. Breed golden to Poodle, breed party color to party color = expensive mutt with no health guarantee ,& DEFINITELY not bred for temperament! I realize party color Poodles are poodles, but they are flawed in the sense of genetics. Thus, they cannot be shown for confirmation.
> Why would you be shocked when the dog becomes dog aggressive, when it came from less than stellar beginnings?


I object on so many levels, LOL. To begin with I'd need proof that parti colored Poodles are genetically inferior. If you have proof to back that up, please share it. In the original 3 Poodles were: 1 white dog, 1 black dog, & 1 black & white dog. So you are stating that the Poodle breed was 1/3 inferior from the onset of the breed. As you research the breed & the colors, & the dogs alleged to have helped create the Poodle, it's evident that the parti/multi colors were there from the start. Breeders who prefer the colorful dogs have an avenue to show their dogs in conformation under UKC & without the benefit of a professional handler (AKC does not allow this & it's shortsighted in their part). Those breeders put the same level of time, effort, & work on improving their lines & the next generation as solid Poodle breeders I have spoken with. I should know, I've spent 10 years searching for a Standard Poodle. That dog is now 2 years old & I've continued even after purchasing him to learn. I've considering dipping my toe into conformation shows & would only do so under UKC. I have no desire to do this with AKC. I have a male black & white parti. He is not genetically inferior & does not have temperament problems. I don't know if my future dog will be solid or parti or phantom, or what. One thing I have learned is that breeders of colorful Poodles have to fight a stigma that isn't true. I don't know if it's ever been true. But again, if I'm wrong & you have proof or can point me to proof, I'd like to see it. That's not a challenge, that is a sincere quest for knowledge/proof.

You would be hard pressed to find any breed or colors in a breed that have not been exploited by idiots for money or bred poorly to churn them out for money. Harlequins in Danes & Beaucerons, merles in a whole bunch of different breeds: Chihuahuas, Shelties, Pomeranians, Corgis, etc..., Dobermans have their blues & fawns. Almost any breed & any unique color within that breed & there's some boob exploiting it (no matter if its bad or devastating for the breed. In solid color Poodles there was a time that white pups with apricot ears were culled out because people wanted ice white. Mom got one of her dogs that way. The breeder was going to cull the pup & she took it. The pup faded & it was very hard to tell she ever had color on her ears at all when she was mature.

As a trainer I can tell you that I've trained dogs from all levels & types of breeders. The biggest mistake you can make is that they came from (fill in the blank) type of breeder so expect x, y, z behavior. It's not an absolute. Yes you may not be surprised if the poorly bred dog has temperament issues but I also had plenty of those who made Peggy's incident look like a scene from Sesame Street compared to them & they were from the big names/big lines.

Okay... that's my objection. 

@PeggyTheParti,
My bet on Peggy & her Briard friend is that this was generated by hormones not breeding. My Giant Schnauzer has a pedigree full of champions. My Collie is not as highly bred but she's from sound breeding, stable temperaments. Just 2 weeks ago they had a little teeth popping incident. I put my Collie on my watch list because it's very uncharacteristic & the Giant sort of looked at her like, "yeah, keep your hair on". Heat cycles were the culprit. Because of their training, it was stopped cold by a sharp 'leave it'. The "fight" was no contact just a threat. It's not common for them to get like this but if it's ever going to happen... it'll be when their heat cycles almost overlap. Or one dog is coming in & the hormones get everyone a little stupid. A month before the 2 chihuahua females did the same grumping at each other. They are both now spayed but a little search on the calendar & it is the right time for Boo to be just finishing up & Tinkerbelle to be half way through. Our favorite vet at the university said there is a fluctuation in the dog's body even if they don't have the organs anymore.


----------



## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

I only have one thing to say about dog socialization and rifts. When you remove your dog from socialization, you will hinder progress of trust in socialization. Classes are for learning and for building confidence in how to gain and maintain behavior you want from "your" dog. You can't be your dog's friend. You have to maintain control of your dog. Be their alpha. Dogs can sense hesitation in nerves down a leash. If you are nervous about a situation, your dog will alert to it. Having dogs of the same sex socializing, is always a risk. Unless they are household mates, you run risks for confrontation. You have to give enough space for the dogs first to work dominance issues and respect through, without intervening nervously. If you stop experiencing opportunities to learn, new situations will always surprise you. Let the behavior happen in order to correct it. Correct it. Be dominant about what you require. Be firm. Avoidance is not managing bad encounters, it does nothing in correcting the behavior, or learning from it and does not promote confidence for you. You have to be confident to control your dog. I hope this comes across correctly. Hope it makes sense and helps.


----------



## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

dogsavvy said:


> I object on so many levels, LOL. To begin with I'd need proof that parti colored Poodles are genetically inferior. If you have proof to back that up, please share it. In the original 3 Poodles were: 1 white dog, 1 black dog, & 1 black & white dog. So you are stating that the Poodle breed was 1/3 inferior from the onset of the breed. As you research the breed & the colors, & the dogs alleged to have helped create the Poodle, it's evident that the parti/multi colors were there from the start. Breeders who prefer the colorful dogs have an avenue to show their dogs in conformation under UKC & without the benefit of a professional handler (AKC does not allow this & it's shortsighted in their part). Those breeders put the same level of time, effort, & work on improving their lines & the next generation as solid Poodle breeders I have spoken with. I should know, I've spent 10 years searching for a Standard Poodle. That dog is now 2 years old & I've continued even after purchasing him to learn. I've considering dipping my toe into conformation shows & would only do so under UKC. I have no desire to do this with AKC. I have a male black & white parti. He is not genetically inferior & does not have temperament problems. I don't know if my future dog will be solid or parti or phantom, or what. One thing I have learned is that breeders of colorful Poodles have to fight a stigma that isn't true. I don't know if it's ever been true. But again, if I'm wrong & you have proof or can point me to proof, I'd like to see it. That's not a challenge, that is a sincere quest for knowledge/proof.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find any breed or colors in a breed that have not been exploited by idiots for money or bred poorly to churn them out for money. Harlequins in Danes & Beaucerons, merles in a whole bunch of different breeds: Chihuahuas, Shelties, Pomeranians, Corgis, etc..., Dobermans have their blues & fawns. Almost any breed & any unique color within that breed & there's some boob exploiting it (no matter if its bad or devastating for the breed. In solid color Poodles there was a time that white pups with apricot ears were culled out because people wanted ice white. Mom got one of her dogs that way. The breeder was going to cull the pup & she took it. The pup faded & it was very hard to tell she ever had color on her ears at all when she was mature.
> 
> ...


Charlie 's sire was a huge Parti, as was his full uncle. I met both stud males, and they were playful, curious, friendly and super sociable with the litter of 8 week old pups and several strangers like me who were choosing a pup. Both studs had stacks of championship ribbons. Solid black Charlie is the most sociable and friendly dog with humans and other dogs that I have ever seen. A couple of professional dog show handlers told me he has superb conformation. Nice to know despite me not intending to show or breed. I think irresponsible breeding results in bad dog temperament, not what colour they happen to be.

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Geez..


PeggyTheParti said:


> Goodness, I love you two. (_Edit: And you, too, Ellen!_) Poodle Forum is the best.
> 
> Tonight we head to our first class in almost a year. Hoping for no bad blood between Peggy and the Briard. Will keep them apart and focused on working.
> 
> My biggest fear, of course, is that this is the start of dog aggression. I’m not sure I’ve seen anything that would point to that, but as we approach Peggy’s spay surgery on May 27th, my anxiety is ratcheting up up up. I will be trying very hard to focus on constructive advice until then and in the days after.


Don't worry so much, Peggy will be just fine and really you work with her so much. One little fight doesn't mean there will be dog aggression in the end. Sometimes things just happen. And now that you and Peggy have had a tate of what could happen you will be more in tune. I'd probably not let them play off lead for a bit, just to cool it down but I would continue to take walks with my friend and her briard side by side. I petsit for two standards. Sometimes the will play like the video of basil, but we stop that, u usually it takes just a clap of hands saying enough. That type of play in my opinion can lead to a fight. Running, jumping even over one another is fine and a little of the wrestling is fine too but that always seems to escalate if you allow it to go on, so we always give them a break. Not really having to separate them just by telling them enough and then they each go about running around. I think in time you may get that back. The post by Jillo makes no sense at all, there is nothing that says a parti colored poodle has a inferior temperament .


----------



## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I agree that post made no sense at all and it really wasn’t helpful to anyone. Making sweeping generalizations is not helpful nor kind. What I love about this forum is that, while there are always varying opinions and approaches and our poodles come from many different places and backgrounds, and we are all at different places in training abilities, we all love the breed and want to do what think is best for our dogs. This forum is a learning place and I love that we help each other learn. I have found this forum to be a very helpful, caring and respectful forum for which I am very grateful.

I can only speak from my own experience as a parti poodle owner and that would be that when we visited Bobby’s sire and dam and even Bobby’s “grandpa,” all Parti poodles, they all had amazing temperaments as does Bobby. My husband, who only said yes, because his wife dearly wanted a poodle, was very impressed. We both love Bobby’s temperament. My husband even wants another poodle so that says something. 😊

The generalizing that JillO made was very unfair to all of the parti poodle people on this forum. PTP...Peggy is a wonderful girl, a beautiful girl and you and your husband are amazing, loving and dedicated owners.


----------



## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

As has been said here before, we're uncommonly kind and supportive for an online group. When I joined this forum was full of breeders, and while they had so much to teach, they brought along their show ring judgments and one-upmanship. Over time they insulted each other so much that the group splintered and they all left. I rather prefer the way it is now.


----------



## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Liz said:


> As has been said here before, we're uncommonly kind and supportive for an online group. When I joined this forum was full of breeders, and while they had so much to teach, they brought along their show ring judgments and one-upmanship. Over time they insulted each other so much that the group splintered and they all left. I rather prefer the way it is now.


Yes, it's nice to see when someone parachutes in to post something rude or rather unhelpful/cruel posturing, that the community can "correct" swiftly and firmly, with love.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Starvt said:


> Yes, in fact I would think that having them see each other soon where they are under control would be a good thing. Practice being calm around each other again. As long as it's possible to give them as much distance as they need.





Liz said:


> It depends on the dogs. In general we found sticks and bumpers to work well for her friend group. However, one dog has a special bumper that is all his, and the owners do not bring it to the lake. Mia doesn't guard toys, but high value treats can be a trigger for her, so I either don't bring treats or bring low value treats to the lake. You've identified balls as a trigger for Lily, so I would leave them at home.


You can also throw two balls, or sticks, etc, at the same time.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

So Peggy’s Briard friend did indeed go into heat shortly after this episode, but after initially dismissing the idea, our trainer has been reconsidering the possibility that it was indeed the dogo attack that caused it (as @cowpony suggested), and that maybe Peggy is just quicker to get defensive now after having one too many bad experiences. (The dogo incident was actually the third such event, though overwhelmingly the most distressing.)

Our friends would like to see how Peggy does playing with just males next week, but I’m apprehensive. She’s been fine in class, but the dogs are always leashed. And although our trainer didn’t think it was a concern, Peggy did growl when an under-socialized adolescent lunged at her last week. I have no idea how that would’ve gone if she was off-leash.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

As Misha approached 2 years of age he became much more quick to correct over exuberant puppies. He will growl at them too. A warning growl, which isn't the same sound as a real growl. I would expect to see differences in her interactions that are correlated to her reaching social maturity. Totally normal and I wouldn't worry about it either.

It sounds like you are being understandably cautious, but I'm really crossing my fingers that the heat is the explanation.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Pogo at age 2 growled at an adolescent that crowded him in a training class. The other owner looked at me like it was my fault. The instructor turned to the other owner and said, "It is very common for an older dog to tell off a younger dog with bad manners. This poodle has reached the age where he no longer tolerates nonsense. You should stop your dog from getting into another dog's face like he just did.."


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Dog classes are really for us humans.


cowpony said:


> Pogo at age 2 growled at an adolescent that crowded him in a training class. The other owner looked at me like it was my fault. The instructor turned to the other owner and said, "It is very common for an older dog to tell off a younger dog with bad manners. This poodle has reached the age where he no longer tolerates nonsense. You should stop your dog from getting into another dog's face like he just did.."


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

PeggytheParti,

I think you are being wise. When the hormones begin to gear up for breeding (in the Briard) things change & can trigger what you saw between Peggy & her pal. Couple that up with that rotten dogo attack (& the others others). This is the kind of thing that has to be handled by a dog master. There are trainers who are at all different levels. Think of it like school: kindergarten, elementary, junior high, high school, college, masters, doctorate... in the world of dog training beyond them all are a few dog masters. If you don't have access to a dogman or dogmaster, get one of those upper level folks to take you through training (at this point) with off leash with Peggy. But make certain it's someone who has worked with large numbers of dogs & successfully transitioned a dog through this situation. I know some excellent trainers who are so brilliant but they know nothing of aggression & that's how I know them. I've 'closet' trained for many to help them learn.

Next, if you're not comfortable with having her off lead with these dogs. If you're not relaxed, at ease even, she will be on alert... it's counter productive to what you wish to accomplish. And you cannot fake it til you make it with a dog. Many think you can. Nope. Your dog will let you fake it til you make it & build your confidence but if they feel a threat or that you are nervous, (bing!) high alert. Gotta look out for whatever is making my human feel that way.

I know, no pressure, right?


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Could you wait another week or two and then reassess? 2 full weeks for cortisol to settle down and maybe try a different location and only one other male dog?

Annie is leash reactive to rude dogs, particularly offleash adolescents. At this point I consider it more puppy manners educational services than aggression. I also see her growl during play with adolescents. One 100 lb+ 8 month old mastiff was really interesting to watch her interact with recently - it was firmly 'we can play but you CANNOT put your foot on my back or attempt to hump me'. All corrections/setting boundaries for safe play with a dog twice her size. Lighting fast, no grudges held by either dog. They had a blast, the mastiff fell in love, but Annie growled several times. I still fret, and no longer allow her with most rude dogs.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Growling is a fact of life with Peggy. But aside from that one day with the Briard, they have always been warning growls. Very different tone and body language compared to an aggressive growl.

During the scuffle, and when we pulled them apart, it wasn't even a growl. It was straight-up snarling. And what I keep coming back to is that she tried to fight _again_ after they were separated. In the past, even if a dog pissed her off or stressed her out, she was fine the moment she had some distance.

It’s that “Let me at her!!!” moment that really sticks with me now as I decide how to move forward.




For Want of Poodle said:


> Could you wait another week or two and then reassess? 2 full weeks for cortisol to settle down and maybe try a different location and only one other male dog?
> 
> Annie is leash reactive to rude dogs, particularly offleash adolescents. At this point I consider it more puppy manners educational services than aggression. I also see her growl during play with adolescents. One 100 lb+ 8 month old mastiff was really interesting to watch her interact with recently - it was firmly 'we can play but you CANNOT put your foot on my back or attempt to hump me'. All corrections/setting boundaries for safe play with a dog twice her size. Lighting fast, no grudges held by either dog. They had a blast, the mastiff fell in love, but Annie growled several times. I still fret, and no longer allow her with most rude dogs.


It will have been three full weeks, so I think her cortisol levels are fine. But I’m still leaning towards waiting until after her spay.

Annie’s behaviour sounds totally normal to me. I think poodles can be really good teachers of manners. That was kind of Peggy’s role up until this incident.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I’m not sure when play dates became a thing. I’ve only had a few of them, because we finally have a great yard for kids and dogs. The “dates” have always been with females and my males were thrilled and ridiculously submissive. Their yard, but their guests. My previous dog, a Scottish Terrier, was unaltered and he was practically taking drink orders from a Bichon and later a Maltese. Buck has had two different Spoo female dates, and they joyfully ran around with no snarls, humping just getting their ya ya’s out. Same sex aggression has been more common in my experience, especially with the intact Scottie. He was so peaceful, it shocked me, like when a new neighbor assured me her unleashed Labrador (m) was friendly and he rushed to take a chomp on my leashed, placidly sitting Charlie. I wish Pegi could play with Buck. I think it’s best if she and the Briard take companionable walks with their bosses and attend their classes at a distance. Who knows what dogs are thinking? As lily CD says you can watch for body language signals, but attacks happen suddenly and only the dogs know why.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> PeggytheParti,
> 
> I think you are being wise. When the hormones begin to gear up for breeding (in the Briard) things change & can trigger what you saw between Peggy & her pal. Couple that up with that rotten dogo attack (& the others others). This is the kind of thing that has to be handled by a dog master. There are trainers who are at all different levels. Think of it like school: kindergarten, elementary, junior high, high school, college, masters, doctorate... in the world of dog training beyond them all are a few dog masters. If you don't have access to a dogman or dogmaster, get one of those upper level folks to take you through training (at this point) with off leash with Peggy. But make certain it's someone who has worked with large numbers of dogs & successfully transitioned a dog through this situation. I know some excellent trainers who are so brilliant but they know nothing of aggression & that's how I know them. I've 'closet' trained for many to help them learn.
> 
> ...


What worries me most is that it could happen again and I won’t be able to break it up before she does damage. Presumably that wasn’t her intent, as she didn’t, to my knowledge, injure the Briard in any way. But just the possibility makes me feel ill. That’s what would cause me to be “off” while we supervise—that need to scrutinize them every moment for signs it’s about to go south. I agree that weird energy might make Peggy feel on edge.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Mfmst said:


> I’m not sure when play dates became a thing. I’ve only had a few of them, because we finally have a great yard for kids and dogs. The “dates” have always been with females and my males were thrilled and ridiculously submissive. Their yard, but their guests. My previous dog, a Scottish Terrier, was unaltered and he was practically taking drink orders from a Bichon and later a Maltese. Buck has had two different Spoo female dates, and they joyfully ran around with no snarls, humping just getting their ya ya’s out. Same sex aggression has been more common in my experience, especially with the intact Scottie. He was so peaceful, it shocked me, like when a new neighbor assured me her unleashed Labrador (m) was friendly and he rushed to take a chomp on my leashed, placidly sitting Charlie. I wish Pegi could play with Buck. I think it’s best if she and the Briard take companionable walks with their bosses and attend their classes at a distance. Who knows what dogs are thinking? As lily CD says you can watch for body language signals, but attacks happen suddenly and only the dogs know why.


I think dog parks might be to blame for the playdate craze. They became a place that people could run their dogs silly, one hour a day, and really not invest a whole lot more than that. Perfect for folks who are working long hours and have a million other responsibilities to manage. Not so great for dog savvy folks who don’t want to see their social dog beaten up on repeatedly while the owners chatter on, oblivious.

In our case, we started our weekly play group as an extension of our puppy classes. They were a place for the puppies to practise manners while also blowing off steam. Nothing can exercise a dog quite like another dog! And the human attendees were all engaged more than the average owner you’d meet at a dog park. It became a great place to talk dogs, compare puppy notes, and help each other out.

Then covid came along and the play dates kind of became a replacement for our classes, to keep our adolescents social. But at some point I think they became more important to us humans. We needed to be kept social, too!

I would so love for Peggy to play with Buck.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Pogo at age 2 growled at an adolescent that crowded him in a training class. The other owner looked at me like it was my fault. The instructor turned to the other owner and said, "It is very common for an older dog to tell off a younger dog with bad manners. This poodle has reached the age where he no longer tolerates nonsense. You should stop your dog from getting into another dog's face like he just did.."


I almost just cheered out loud. Good instructor.


----------



## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> So Peggy’s Briard friend did indeed go into heat shortly after this episode, but after initially dismissing the idea, our trainer has been reconsidering the possibility that it was indeed the dogo attack that caused it (as @cowpony suggested), and that maybe Peggy is just quicker to get defensive now after having one too many bad experiences. (The dogo incident was actually the third such event, though overwhelmingly the most distressing.)
> 
> Our friends would like to see how Peggy does playing with just males next week, but I’m apprehensive. She’s been fine in class, but the dogs are always leashed. And although our trainer didn’t think it was a concern, Peggy did growl when an under-socialized adolescent lunged at her last week. I have no idea how that would’ve gone if she was off-leash.


Have you ever considered a conformation handling class? Although you won't be showing, the experience is a good thing in socialization for same sex playmate relationships. It gives you the opportunity to gain confidence and have some fun. It's never off lead but always interactive. As I think I mentioned before, your apprehension transfers down the leash. If you are more confident, Peggy won't alert and become nervous. Don't lose hope. You are trying. SPOOs are so keyed to our emotions. Just as Peggy needs to know you will protect her, she needs permission to defend herself, as well. There are no one answer fits all. There are set guidelines with several methods of teaching. I'm very old school having started with GSDs and Schutzhund training and show having in ring experience. The breed types change but the methods work for any breed provided you consider the differences in personality traits of the breeds. SPOOs are sensitive to how you speak to them. They have some stubborn tendencies. They love "good" vocabulary rewards. Goldens are treat driven, GSDs love permission to be goobers. I've done behavioral evals for people can honestly say that Peggy is carrying some fear from it, without even seeing her. Again, gain some calm and don't lose hope. Gain confidence. 😊 hope this is understandable.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> Have you ever considered a conformation handling class? Although you won't be showing, the experience is a good thing in socialization for same sex playmate relationships. It gives you the opportunity to gain confidence and have some fun. It's never off lead but always interactive. As I think I mentioned before, your apprehension transfers down the leash. If you are more confident, Peggy won't alert and become nervous. Don't lose hope. You are trying. SPOOs are so keyed to our emotions. Just as Peggy needs to know you will protect her, she needs permission to defend herself, as well. There are no one answer fits all. There are set guidelines with several methods of teaching. I'm very old school having started with GSDs and Schutzhund training and show having in ring experience. The breed types change but the methods work for any breed provided you consider the differences in personality traits of the breeds. SPOOs are sensitive to how you speak to them. They have some stubborn tendencies. They love "good" vocabulary rewards. Goldens are treat driven, GSDs love permission to be goobers. I've done behavioral evals for people can honestly say that Peggy is carrying some fear from it, without even seeing her. Again, gain some calm and don't lose hope. Gain confidence. 😊 hope this is understandable.


Carrying some fear from what? From me? If I’ve understood your comment correctly, I’m going to respectfully disagree. During the play date in question, I could not have been more relaxed. We were with friends, standing around chatting the way we have every week for much of the past year and a half. Furthermore, Peggy was not on leash.

I am very aware of how tuned into our emotions poodles are. I’m not disputing that at all. It’s a big part of why I love them so dearly. It just wasn’t a factor in this situation.

And no, I have no interest in conformation handling. But we do attend basic on-leash obedience classes weekly (after a very long covid pause).


----------



## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Carrying some fear from what? From me? If I’ve understood your comment correctly, I’m going to respectfully disagree. During the play date in question, I could not have been more relaxed. We were with friends, standing around chatting the way we have every week for much of the past year and a half. Furthermore, Peggy was not on leash.
> 
> I am very aware of how tuned into our emotions poodles are. I’m not disputing that at all. It’s a big part of why I love them so dearly. It just wasn’t a factor in this situation.
> 
> And no, I have no interest in conformation handling. But we do attend basic on-leash obedience classes weekly (after a very long covid pause).


I'm so sorry. You sound offended and angry. My point was not to judge, it was to offer a viewpoint. You are still concerned with "what if's" and your ability to handle them is my take on the purpose of this discussion. If I am wrong. I apologize. If you feel the need to growl me down. You have succeeded.


----------



## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Carrying some fear from what? From me? If I’ve understood your comment correctly, I’m going to respectfully disagree. During the play date in question, I could not have been more relaxed. We were with friends, standing around chatting the way we have every week for much of the past year and a half. Furthermore, Peggy was not on leash.
> 
> I am very aware of how tuned into our emotions poodles are. I’m not disputing that at all. It’s a big part of why I love them so dearly. It just wasn’t a factor in this situation.
> 
> And no, I have no interest in conformation handling. But we do attend basic on-leash obedience classes weekly (after a very long covid pause).


Peggy is carrying the fear by the way.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> I'm so sorry. You sound offended and angry. My point was not to judge, it was to offer a viewpoint. You are still concerned with "what if's" and your ability to handle them is my take on the purpose of this discussion. If I am wrong. I apologize. If you feel the need to growl me down. You have succeeded.


Oh no! I’m not offended or angry. Just disagreeing with the assessment (as I understood it) that she was feeding off my fear.

You’re right that I’m worried about future scuffles now, and I absolutely agree that my worries will be communicated to her at our next play date, no question. There’s really no way around that unless my husband goes alone. (Nothing really worries him lol.)


----------



## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh no! I’m not offended or angry. Just disagreeing with the assessment (as I understood it) that she was feeding off my fear.
> 
> You’re right that I’m worried about future scuffles now, and I absolutely agree that my worries will be communicated to her at our next play date, no question. There’s really no way around that unless my husband goes alone. (Nothing really worries him lol.)


Her fear of being victim to another dog's misbehavior.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We’re going to visit with a friend and her collie next week, to see how Peggy does with him. He’s a neutered and submissive boy, and she’s an extremely experienced handler. 

It’s not that we want to push Peggy back into play dates. This won’t be a regular thing. But Ian Dunbar stresses the importance of facilitating continued interaction after adolescent fights, and I fear we’ve been depriving Peggy of those positive experiences since that one scrap.



https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/FightingWithDogs_1.pdf


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Today’s the day. I’m really nervous! Luckily my husband is not and neither is our friend.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Here's hoping it's a good experience for all!


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I have a feeling she will do fine! Best of luck to you and Peggy!


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Hoping it goes well!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Went perfectly.


----------



## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

Hooray! I’m happy and relieved for you and Peggy.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

a2girl said:


> Hooray! I’m happy and relieved for you and Peggy.



Meeeee, too. Thank you.  And the fresh salty air and distant view of Canada made it extra nice for the humans, too!


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Looks like both dogs had a great time.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Yes, relieved here too that it went well. And ..... will it carry over to other dogs that she does not know also? That is the big test.

Covid has been hard on humans, and possibly even more on dogs who have not been socialized as they should be for sure. I am very concerned that there will be many unsocialized and more aggressive dogs coming out of this time of separatedness.

Blessings to all, let us not get into judgement calls and defensiveness here please!! Hugs, pats, etc.!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Skylar said:


> Looks like both dogs had a great time.


They really did. It was a great mix of chase and relaxation.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Yes, relieved here too that it went well. And ..... will it carry over to other dogs that she does not know also? That is the big test.
> 
> Covid has been hard on humans, and possibly even more on dogs who have not been socialized as they should be for sure. I am very concerned that there will be many unsocialized and more aggressive dogs coming out of this time of separatedness.
> 
> Blessings to all, let us not get into judgement calls and defensiveness here please!! Hugs, pats, etc.!


In what scenario do you envision her being off-leash with dogs she doesn’t know? 

That’s not really a situation we find ourselves in anymore, but she’s met plenty of dogs in the past two years, in her classes and in her play group, and there have been no issues off-leash except the one that prompted this thread.

In retrospect, it was not a good idea for her to be playing with an unspayed female who was about to go into heat, _especially_ with male dogs around, one of whom was not neutered. Recipe for disaster. 

Thank goodness for bite inhibition!


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Definite recipe for disaster as you explain it! Even happens in humans!

I do think it is important though for all dogs to be trained to be off-leash and be able to communicate and deal with other dogs, whether trained, or aggressive.. I realize not everyone agrees with me. It has made a huge difference living up here where many dogs are off leash in the woods. I have taught/reinforced calming signals, and yup - so valuable.

I am seeing so many comparisons to people this last few years in the US. Covid has made it even worse for both people and dogs. So glad your dog is doing well


----------

