# Is this puppy going to be a Toy or a Mini?



## seejacey (Jul 28, 2014)

Hi,

As I have been looking for my first toy poodle, I have been in contact with a few breeders and I was happy to find one relatively close to my home. I'm planning to visit later this weekend. They are light red poodles from a red toy father and black poodle mother. I don't know if the mother is a mini or a toy - the breeder mentioned she was a smaller mini, but she's about 8 pounds. The father is 5-6lbs. 

So, will this puppy be a toy or a mini?? The puppy is about 12 weeks old and 3.5 lbs now. Also, anyone know about the implications of crossing a toy and a mini? A red with a black poodle? Thanks!


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm not a fan of cross breeding sizes. I've had one (a rescue), and his body was the length of a small mini, but with the shorter legs of a toy. A poodle should be square, and they look really strange when their bodies are too long for their legs.


----------



## seejacey (Jul 28, 2014)

georgiapeach said:


> I'm not a fan of cross breeding sizes. I've had one (a rescue), and his body was the length of a small mini, but with the shorter legs of a toy. A poodle should be square, and they look really strange when their bodies are too long for their legs.


@georgiapeach I believe the puppies are square in proportion right now as puppies. Did you get your rescue poodle as a puppy and was he always longer or did he lengthen out over time? I'm curious if they'll stay about the same proportion as they grow.


----------



## Bizzeemamanj (Apr 14, 2014)

If you truly want a toy poodle, you need to find a breeder who only breeds toys to other toys. Otherwise you are introducing a whole unknown variable into the equation - size. Minis range significantly in size and you have no way of knowing how large some of the other poodles in her line may have been/may be.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

3.5 pounds at 12 weeks sounds very big for a toy to me.
The formula that I have always found super accurate for predicting the finished size of a Toy Poodle is to double the weight at 16 weeks, plus half a pound. Even applying that formula now, your pups predicted adult size would be 7.5 pounds. But I am sure that he or she will gain AT Least a pound, Probably more and at sixteen weeks will be at least 4.5 pounds, meaning their finished adult size will be at least 9.5 pounds.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Another thing that is VERY important is that BOTH the parents have had genetic testing to assure your new pup won't develop these health problems later. Growing up I had a poodle that had PRA, an inherited disease that causes total, irreversible blindness. It was heartbreaking. Today this still runs in the poodle breed, but can be tested for in the parents to assure your pup won't have it.


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i imagine you are taken aback and even somewhat discouraged right now having read members' responses to your question, and i am sorry about that. just so you know where people are coming from, however: good breeders do not crossbreed poodles to other breeds or toys to minis, minis to standards, etc. the main reason is their desire to protect the future of the breed. they do test for testable genetically transmitted diseases and generally try to avoid breeding that will permit those diseases to flourish. i think what people are saying is that you may want to look a bit more carefully at what the breeder you've selected is bringing to the table. it would be surprising if she were able to offer the health guarantees and lifelong breeder support that is part of the package good breeders offer.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If the breeding really is a cross between a toy and a mini then the puppies really aren't either. That being said if the breeder can offer the information on health testing and health guarantees that you should want and you like the puppy as a family pet prospect then you are the only one who can decide how you feel about the situation. I recommend looking at this threadhttp://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html


----------



## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

My pup was 3.2 at 11 weeks. I am not sure what her weight is now at almost 9 months{ prob full grown} . Last i checked she was 7.5 ,that was months ago, so I would guess she is 8-10 lbs.
Tiny poodles is right at the pups projected weight.
I do not know anything about Zoe's parents so I could not tell you if her parents were crossed, it is possible. She looks proportional and a perfect size to me. I can still scoop her up and she is not fragile for my large family.
I do however agree with everyone who suggested a reputable breeder with health testing . I wish I had that knowledge before purchasing Zoe.


----------



## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I have two toy poodles from a breeder who bred toys to toys and health tested. Both of them are nice and square. Beau, my sweet boy, is an oversized toy. He is about 12 inches at the shoulder and about 10lbs. He was my first toy, and I did not want a super tiny. I had always had minis, but I really liked this breeder. Beau is registered with the AKC as a toy. I first saw the puppies at 7 weeks, and the breeder was able to give me an accurate estimate of his adult size. Many of the breeders of toys and minis who show tend to breed dogs to the top an the size range as they are more impressive in the ring. I have had dogs who were over sized minis, but they looked nothing like standards. Unless you plan on showing, find a breeder you trust who health tests, and it won't matter if your dog is an inch or two over sized.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Size wouldn't be my top concern -- we have an "oversized" mini, after all, and he's the perfect size for our family. But our boy was from two beautiful, pedigreed, fully *health-tested* mini parents, and that testing is non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. (Otherwise, why not rescue?) Also, the different sizes tend to be prone to different health problems, which means crossing sizes puts the pups at risk of an even wider range of genetic issues than normal.


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

Interesting topic. I have a toy puppy who I believe may end up a small mini. Her parents are both health tested and are miniature poodles. The breeder only breeds minis. My puppy was the smallest of the litter and the breeder realized after contacting a toy breeder that she may have actually had a toy in this litter. So I purchased her expecting her to reach 6lbs as an adult.. Well she is growing and gaining quickly.. Haha! I believe I may have a small mini on my hands after all..or a large toy. My husband is happy because he wanted a bigger dog to begin with and she won't be so fragile.. It'll be interesting to see where she tops out at.. Either way I love her! She's perfect! Great clown like personality! Temperament and health are so much more important than weight and size..good luck with your prospects!


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

SonoraSunset, if both parents of your pup are mini's, the pup is considered a mini, no matter what size she turns out. You can only get a toy by breeding a toy to a toy and you can only get a mini by breeding a mini to a mini. Same with standard. 

If you look at bone structure, they are different. A toy will be more refined. 

And by the way, she is darling!


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

N2Mischief said:


> SonoraSunset, if both parents of your pup are mini's, the pup is considered a mini, no matter what size she turns out. You can only get a toy by breeding a toy to a toy and you can only get a mini by breeding a mini to a mini. Same with standard.
> 
> If you look at bone structure, they are different. A toy will be more refined.
> 
> And by the way, she is darling!


Exactly! Even though he tops out at 16-1/2", Beau is an oversized mini, not a small "standard." He's considered a mini because he's out of two in-size (<15") mini parents. Similarly, the pup of two in-size toy parents (<10") is a toy, even if it goes "oversize."

Just as we think our "oversized" mini is a perfect size for our family, an "oversize" toy might be perfect for yours.


----------



## seejacey (Jul 28, 2014)

Thanks for all your thoughts! I was especially confused about what a mini to toy breeding could produce - but it looks quite unclear and the best bet is to look for the toy breeders. Glad I could get all of your opinions on this. Also, it looked like the breeder had not done health testing. She has a few generations of the mothers in her home, and I saw that all were happy, friendly and healthy for their ages. She had found no reason to test because they were always healthy. It's so hard meeting such pretty puppies and not taking one on the spot!


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

LEUllman said:


> Exactly! Even though he tops out at 16-1/2", Beau is an oversized mini, not a small "standard." He's considered a mini because he's out of two in-size (<15") mini parents. Similarly, the pup of two in-size toy parents (<10") is a toy, even if it goes "oversize."
> 
> Just as we think our "oversized" mini is a perfect size for our family, an "oversize" toy might be perfect for yours.


How is a puppy registered with AKC if the mommy is registered as a mini and the dad is registered as a toy? Same question would be for a standard/mini mix.

If the breeder wants all puppies to be AKC registered dogs, does she have an option? Is there an AKC rule that both parents must be registered as the same size poodle?

Just wondering about the dogs when parents are registered as different sizes?


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> SonoraSunset, if both parents of your pup are mini's, the pup is considered a mini, no matter what size she turns out. You can only get a toy by breeding a toy to a toy and you can only get a mini by breeding a mini to a mini. Same with standard.
> 
> If you look at bone structure, they are different. A toy will be more refined.
> 
> And by the way, she is darling!


Thank you! She's very sweet. Thanks for the info..What do you mean by refined as a toy? Smaller features? She was sold as a toy and that's what I was interested in.. Now I'm wondering how much more she will grow.. All the stuff ( crate, harness, travel bag) I purchased are all for a toy breed. Her breeder is pretty reputable, I'm surprised she wouldn't know this..oh well she's lovely. I just hope she stays travel size!!!!!


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

How many weeks is she now, and what is her weight? Since both parents are mini's, she is a mini, but she may well be "undersized". My toy poodle Misha is undersized for a toy.

Oh, and yes, finer boned, smaller features.


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

Ok after reading quite a bit, I think I prefer mini's lol! I guess it worked in my favor! So if she ends up at less than 8lbs and 10 inches at hithers, she will be considered a petite mini I'm assuming.


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Exactly!


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> How many weeks is she now, and what is her weight? Since both parents are mini's, she is a mini, but she may well be "undersized". My toy poodle Misha is undersized for a toy.
> 
> Oh, and yes, finer boned, smaller features.


This is what peeked my interest.. She was very tiny at 9 weeks than had a sudden growth spurt. She's 13 weeks and is about 4lbs. At 9 weeks she was 2lbs 2oz. So I realized then she's going to be larger than I expected.. It's all good, but I thought she was going to be about 6lbs.. Lol!


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

Sorry for typos can't figure out how to correct my spelling errors lol! Then*


----------



## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I would guess full grown around 10 pounds...a very nice size.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

This is Flower and Baby

one is 10" tall

one is 13" tall

One has toy poodle parents

One has mini poodle parents

Flower is the phantom

Baby is the Silver Beige

they both weigh 10 lbs

Can you guess which is the mini and which is the toy?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SonoranSunset said:


> Ok after reading quite a bit, I think I prefer mini's lol! I guess it worked in my favor! So if she ends up at less than 8lbs and 10 inches at hithers, she will be considered a petite mini I'm assuming.


Yes she would be a small mini, like my mom's boy who is just over ten inches, but weighs only 8+ pounds.


----------



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

twyla said:


> View attachment 203513
> 
> 
> This is Flower and Baby
> ...



I would say Baby is the toy and Flower is the mini. Baby has (like mentioned above) more refined smaller features even though she looks/is taller.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Yes Baby is the Toy, always referred to her as my over-sized toy or skinny Mini, Flower I just tell people she is a Toy because its hard enough explaining that she is a poodle \(didn't know they came in that color)


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm with Poodlecrazy on her guess, for the same reasons! Flower has a broader (it appears) muzzle/heavier bone stuctured face.....


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

this is Fannie, Baby and Flower

Fannie was a 12" 14 lb mini and mother to Flower who is 10 and 10lb

Baby is in the middle the fine looking toy


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

MiniPoo said:


> How is a puppy registered with AKC if the mommy is registered as a mini and the dad is registered as a toy? Same question would be for a standard/mini mix.
> 
> If the breeder wants all puppies to be AKC registered dogs, does she have an option? Is there an AKC rule that both parents must be registered as the same size poodle?
> 
> Just wondering about the dogs when parents are registered as different sizes?


A poodle is a poodle. In AKC, the different varieties can be bred together and still be registerable since it's the same *breed*.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

seejacey said:


> Also, it looked like the breeder had not done health testing. She has a few generations of the mothers in her home, and I saw that all were happy, friendly and healthy for their ages. She had found no reason to test because they were always healthy.


Oy!!!


----------



## SonoranSunset (Nov 14, 2014)

SonoranSunset said:


> Ok after reading quite a bit, I think I prefer mini's lol! I guess it worked in my favor! So if she ends up at less than 8lbs and 10 inches at hithers, she will be considered a petite mini I'm assuming.


Withers*


----------



## Gryphon (Nov 5, 2013)

Toys, minis and spoos should not be interbreed. You risk getting a spoo body in mini legs, and so on.
The offspring of two toy poodles is a toy poodle even if it ends up being slightly larger and falling in the mini range.
My mini puppy will probably go over the height maximum for a mini but that does not make him a standard.
Testing is extremely important. Please be rational when picking out a puppy. Then you can fall in love when you have a healthy puppy.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Gryphon said:


> Toys, minis and spoos should not be interbreed. You risk getting a spoo body in mini legs, and so on.
> The offspring of two toy poodles is a toy poodle even if it ends up being slightly larger and falling in the mini range.
> My mini puppy will probably go over the height maximum for a mini but that does not make him a standard.
> Testing is extremely important. Please be rational when picking out a puppy. Then you can fall in love when you have a healthy puppy.


Yes! Very much the truth.


----------



## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

twyla said:


> View attachment 203513
> 
> 
> This is Flower and Baby
> ...


I would say Baby is the toy because of her refined features and bone structure.


----------



## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

seejacey said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I have been looking for my first toy poodle, I have been in contact with a few breeders and I was happy to find one relatively close to my home. I'm planning to visit later this weekend. They are light red poodles from a red toy father and black poodle mother. I don't know if the mother is a mini or a toy - the breeder mentioned she was a smaller mini, but she's about 8 pounds. The father is 5-6lbs.
> 
> So, will this puppy be a toy or a mini?? The puppy is about 12 weeks old and 3.5 lbs now. Also, anyone know about the implications of crossing a toy and a mini? A red with a black poodle? Thanks!


If a Toy poodle is bred to a Toy Poodle it is a Toy poodle no matter how big or small it gets. The same is true of the Miniature if two Miniatures are bred the offspring will be Miniatures no matter how large or small they turn out to be.

I have two toy poodles: GiGi the apricot is 6 years old and is a rescue from a puppy mill seizure. Oddly enough she is very healthy, but a bit shy in public. She is a true toy at 10 inches and 5 lbs. She is very capricious and a tomboy at heart.

Sasha the white poodle is 11 years old and a rescue that was an owner (put in a nursing home) surrender. She has allergies, lost her eyesight to retinal degeneration and cataracts but is healthy in all other aspects. She has a good loving heart and is very personable, she has never met a stranger. She is an oversized toy at 12 inches and 8 lbs. 

Sasha may have some health issues but if it had not been for her I would not have my health, as she nursed me through a serious illness. She also just in the last year allerted me of a potential fire and saved our home. Even sickly little poodles have value!


----------

