# The "alpha" myth



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I just read that article. It was quite enlightening._


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have never quite understood why everyone is/was so enamoured of CM - it is entertaining television, but some of his methods are dubious, if not dangerous, and others are the most basic common sense (dogs need exercise and mental stimulation, for example). We seem, as humans, to like being able to dominate others, and to gravitate towards theories that justify this - pity, when it is so often counter-effective.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

That was an interesting article 

I for one haven't looked at Cesar Milan the same way since I saw the episode of South Park about his training of Cartman >.>

How can we treat our dogs like that? Let alone our Cartman's of the world?
Cartman v. Cesar


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Some of those comments get me all wound up.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Marian said:


> Some of those comments get me all wound up.


Dogs are Domesticated Animals not pets >:O
We're to Americanized here...


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Oh Keith! I loved that episode of SP...LOL


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

My mom and I rescued a corgi/chihuahua mix that I helped train and "rehabilitate." My mom was in to Cesar but after seeing Indie and the difference a year of positive training made, she totally changed her mind. I shudder to think how he would be today if we would have used the alpha method. Today he is a friendly, happy, well-adjusted dog that LOVES people


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

tintlet said:


> Oh Keith! I loved that episode of SP...LOL


lmao South Park is at the core of everything 

and I think thats fantastic Karma! all of our dogs have been raised with positive reinforcement, and its resulted in well rounded friendly dogs ((other than Elphie but shes a spaz machine v.v; ))


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

South Park, LOVE it, I own every season on DVD. I use the tsssst on people at work, drives them nuts :devil:

I am not a fan of the charismatic Mr. Milan, but I know people who swear by him (oddly enough my poodles are better behave than the dogs of the people who are Milan fans).

As I have said before, it is all about what works for you and what type of relationship you want with your dog.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

*shrug* I'll always love Cesar and respect him, but in dog training I believe there always needs to be a balance in methods.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

fjm said:


> I have never quite understood why everyone is/was so enamoured of CM - it is entertaining television, but some of his methods are dubious, if not dangerous, and others are the most basic common sense (dogs need exercise and mental stimulation, for example). We seem, as humans, to like being able to dominate others, and to gravitate towards theories that justify this - pity, when it is so often counter-effective.


All things are a matter of interpretation. I for one tend to agree with you, but at the same time I think CM constantly discusses dogs need, must have mental and physical stimulation. So your example - contradicts what I interpret from his show. Do I agree with everything he does no - but then again, I am not experienced enough to do what he has done for people either. He must also be given credit for the changing dogs and peoples lives and thankfully saving their dogs from being euthanized. 

I believe I AM pack leader in my home, period. I love my dogs so I have committed to training them, stimulating them and plenty of physical exercise. If my dogs act out they are corrected. I am not a meanie, but I mean what I have trained them to do and I expect that. Whatever I lack in, I must take the fall for, not their faults. 

Positive reinforcement is always first - I have never seen him say this was not the case, but again he is dealing with highly sad and almost unmanageable cases. 

I have seen CM do the "alpha roll" a handful of times in a lot of different shows and they were always highly aggressive dogs. I think many diehard fans took it to another level - like when I visit the dog park and see someone doing it because their dogs barks:rolffleyes: Drives me nuts. 

From my perception many trainers do such SIMILAR training LOL the article actually states this - its just a matter of which side you chose to go on. I chose to NOT throw all his methods out, I LIKE HIM much of what he does works. 

He has been a crusader for saving Pit Bulls as well and has educated many on these dogs, I am thankful for that.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I can't pass judgement on CM. I've seen very little of him as my cable company doesn't carry that channel. I have, however, seen much of Victoria Stillwell on "It's Me or the Dog." All of the dogs she deals with have serious problems and respond well to positive reinforcement. Her most difficult challenge is dealing with idiot owners.


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## cheryl4237 (May 19, 2010)

I think it's good to use a variety of training methods, to best address your dogs individualized training needs. I think the "alpha" method is the best route to take for "space" training your doggy. Dogs naturally respect the alpha dogs "space", be it around food, territory, or moma dogs pups. And this is very important. I love Cm's approach to things like "claiming the doorway" ect. And I think it works very well. However, being alpha is not going to help with things like barking, or separation issues, ect. But most dogs need you to be alpha. Leading is alot of responsibility, and someone has to do it. If you don't make it clear that you are in charge, then they may feel they need to be, and it spirals down from there. If you take up the torch, then they can relax and enjoy That being said, being alpha, does not negate positive reinforcement. I think there is a wonderful balance of being "top dog" without ever needing to be harsh. It's alot like raising children. You love them to death, you don't hurt them ever, but they still need to do what you say, and respect your position in the household.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> I for one haven't looked at Cesar Milan the same way since I saw the episode of South Park about his training of Cartman >.>


Charlie Murphy also did a funny bit on Cesar and the "secret" to his methods. Warning: there is some strong language here. Also, the clips that just have the Dog Whisperer part seem to have been taken down. Unfortunately this version ends right before the very end of the bit, but you can watch part 7/7 for the ending. The DW part starts at about 4:45 into this:


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## Sapphire-Light (Jun 9, 2010)

I have seen and heard of many people doing alpha rolls since I was a little girl in the 80s, way before CM was on air. hwell:

They are some things I don't agree with him, but others I do like exercise.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> Charlie Murphy also did a funny bit on Cesar and the "secret" to his methods. Warning: there is some strong language here. Also, the clips that just have the Dog Whisperer part seem to have been taken down. Unfortunately this version ends right before the very end of the bit, but you can watch part 7/7 for the ending. The DW part starts at about 4:45 into this:
> 
> YouTube - charlie murphy i will not apologize - part 6/7


LMAO!!!
Thats fantastic!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

LOLOL @ southpark!

my sister swears by him. she watched the show and said she knows everything about dogs. 

and her dog is absolutely out of control.

um .. first off, turn off the tv and train the dog .... the dog isn't watching the show!

(she did no training on that 120 pound dog. makes me absolutely ill.)


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

I do agree that dogs need leadership, I just disagree on how one gets that position. I follow the Lead the Dance (Sue Ailsby) or NILIF method.

One of the big problems I have is that there are a few short disclaimers on the show and then his sensationalized methods which seem to cure the dog with relatively little work. People then do an alpha roll expecting a perfect dog or do that slap/poke thing with the psst noise, get bitten once their dog has been pushed past its limit and either dump or euthanize their dog. The behaviorist at the SPCA near where I used to live said that an unbelievable number of their owner surrenders were because "Cesar's method didn't work so our dog can't be fixed." I don't think it is responsible to put that method on tv without seriously thinking about what will be taken away by the average dog owner.
I do actually agree with him on the need for mental and physical exercise.


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

My 2 cents:

When you use ANY method of training, you are demonstrating your "ALPHA"ness You ask the animal to perform (or not to perform) a certain task or action, they comply (or not) and that behavior gets reenforced with a positive or negative outcome. The dog then learns WHO the leader (or Alpha) is and what is expected in their "pack". This is the SAME way the leaders in a dog pack will teach lower ranking members with one exception, we tend to feel the need to be compassionate and always use positive (kinder) methods of training, but canids are not always so inclined. If you (the lower ranking dog) step over the line, you are ostrasized and you learn that behavior is unacceptable. So dogs learn for all forms of training and with ANY of them, there will be some form of "ALPHA"ness taking place. After all, a dog must regard you as a leader in order to respect you enough to learn from you. You would never see a lower ranking dog (in a pack) teach a higher ranking dog a lesson. It just doesn't happen that way, unless of course, that lower ranking dog is actually an alpha in training and will eventually assume the Alpha role, but general pack members are never in line to take over the "throne".

I personally believe there are positives and negatives in each training method, but I also think that we humans anthropomorphisize entirely to much. Whether it's called Alpha, pack leader, trainer, whatever, we are still expecting the dogs to submit to our will, some methods are just a kinder, gentler way to make us feel better about ourselves.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Well said Cameo.

I just wish people used their own censorship when watching TV programs.  The best way a person learns to accomplish anything is see it, read up/study it and then apply what works. 

The Southpark skit was hilarious!


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I don't think any of the widely used training methods are bad or wrong in a sense..but I do think certain approaches are not proper for certain dogs. 

I really believe some dogs need a firm hand and more structure than other animals. You can easily ruin a soft dog by using harsh training methods...

Also, while I don't agree with many of Cesar's methods, I do think a lot of his techniques are probably more commonly used on difficult cases...dogs that would possibly be put down otherwise. 

I look at it as at least these dogs have chance because someone like him is willing to work with them! Many of the animals he works with have been discarded as trash or too difficult to train. Some have a lifelong place in his pack because he feels they need the structure that only he can provide.

I don't think his training is really needed for my dogs. I basically just want my dogs to realize nothing is free and everything has to be earned. Praise, play, affection all comes at a price and they are more than willing to work for it.


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## Cameo (Feb 5, 2010)

It's about knowing what you are doing and how to accomplish the desired effect in the dog (or any animals for that matter) you are working with. 

Understanding animal behavior is not something you can learn from watching any TV show. It takes years of working with animals, studying, researching, hands-on with experienced handlers and animals, etc 

One of the best things I learned from my professor in college about animal behavior was this, it's called the behavior equation (think of a math problem)

behavior = genetics + environment + experience

in other words, behavior is the sum of all the other parts. 

This has given me a much broader respect for how animals learn and made me realize that I can't expect the same outcomes in every situation. Each animal is an individual (even within the same species) and should be dealt with according to THEIR needs. All the theories on training are just PART of a larger picture and should be considered another tool in our "tool box" for training. Just as we groomers have different tools for different methods, trainers should understand there are more "tools" available at their disposal and each has their place.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

*Blushes* I have used the "touch" on my critters, mainly to break their focus on something they have no need focusing on, but then Ive also used positive reinforcement, noise distraction, and other miscellaneous methods. It all depends on the dog and the dogs needs. 

I do watch the dog whisperer, mainly so I can watch my husband say "I'm the pack leader" and then have a conversation with the dogs about how things 'round here are gonna change. and then he hugs them or gives them a toy or something. (its funnier if you know my husband, he is the most submissive person I know, with absolutely no backbone) 

I believe that every good trainer should have balance and train on an individual basis.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I personally HATE the terms "alpha" or "pack leader"; YES dogs are very similar to wolves and are possibly descended from them (it is up for debate though, as there are other options for their ancestors too!) but that does NOT mean they are wolves and they have the same social structure as wolves. Feral and wild dogs form a much more fluid social structure than a strict hierarchy commonly seen in wolf "packs"; they are NOT the same as a pack of wolves (which, as pointed out in the article, are generally a family unit) and they behave and interact differently to a wolf pack. Using wolf terms on dogs isn't relevant, and the terms are bandied about sooo much I'm over it!! Ugh!

IMO my dogs are part of my family and social life. It's a give-and-take relationship, there is no demand for me to be respected as an alpha, I only ask for general respect for me, in return I respect them. I also respect my friends but I'm not going to demand they do as I say either! Training for me isn't a 'you must do this' thing! It is more like 'if you do this with me, it's good!' Dogs repeat behaviours if they are reinforced, they don't do it cos I said so or cos I'm the boss, they do it because they are reinforced to want to do it (or, to a lesser degree, punished for not doing it)


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

With you all the way, FD. I like the "benevolent parent" model, while remembering at all times that my dogs are just that - dogs, with different priorities, senses and ways of understanding than me. They learn how to get me to do things (Sophy has a combination Down/play bow that means "yes please!", and is so cute it works every time!), I learn how to get them to do things (distraction, redirection, reward, repetition and consistency). Mind you, I freely admit I may be a bit biased - I have two toy dogs, and anyone who tries to prove they are dominant by alpha rolling a papillon is going to look more than a bit of a wally!

I did not mean to imply that I disagreed with CM's views on dogs needing physical and mental exercise - just to say that to me it seems as obvious as saying dogs need food, water and companionship. Perhaps these things do need reiterating, and if so, good for him. I have enjoyed many of his shows - they are good television - but I don't think they are good dog training. His methods tend to the adversarial - a way of injecting drama and excitement into the episode - and the way in which the programmes are cut and edited makes it seem that behavioural change can happen almost instantly, and we know that this is rarely the case. I can quite see how some owners can get it disastrously wrong, with the best of intentions. VS at least manages to convey that the process will take time, commitment and effort from the owners and their families. I would far prefer to see programmes that explained the options, and directed people to local, hands on trainers - but that, of course, would not make exciting television.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I watch CM occasionally (has dogs in it, after all), and at least he gets people focused on their dogs and working with them. About the only positive thing I can say.

I saw one episode where he pinned down (literally, two people pinned the dog) a dog that was snapping at people who tried to pluck its ears. Pinned the dog for 10 minutes and plucked the ears; the dog was shrieking the whole time. 

Compare that to this youtube video of a lovely girl clicker training a biter to accept having his eyes cleaned:

YouTube - Eye Cleaning on a Difficult Dog

The latter is zero stress, zero battle, zero drama. 

Drama-free life, that's what I'm after.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that sums it up JE - good training = zero drama = not good television

I'm with you - let others live in interesting times!


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> I watch CM occasionally (has dogs in it, after all), and at least he gets people focused on their dogs and working with them. About the only positive thing I can say.
> 
> I saw one episode where he pinned down (literally, two people pinned the dog) a dog that was snapping at people who tried to pluck its ears. Pinned the dog for 10 minutes and plucked the ears; the dog was shrieking the whole time.
> 
> ...



Well put! Drama-free, it's a good thing! lol


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

If people would just take it as the entertainment it is, it would be OK. But a guy came on a showdog list and basically confessed to making a poor schnauzer pup totally neurotic because he had bought all that alpha crap. 

When I first got Dexter, a (dogless) friend came to see him who was a big CM fan. She tried the tssst thing on him. I had to alpha roll her to convince her she wasn't to touch my puppy like that, LOL. 

There is a woman on another list who is a very old-school trainer--definitely not all positive. She has total contempt for CM--says that if you look closely, he is choking the dogs, and that is why they are "calm." (Which is basically the point Charlie Murphy makes, with a few more swear words thrown in.)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Now THERE'S a use for that misbegotten alpha roll!!

Is it just me, or do all of CM's dogs look obedient but super-cautious? I never even see them wag their tails at him. Nor the dogs he trains.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

I was really a fan of Cesar Millan. Not only was I amazed at how he saved dogs from the needle, he also has a very compelling life story. 

I bought in and used his methods on Fozzie and while many of them were very helpful (in particular, his formula that for every hour you can spend with your pet, half should be in a structured walk, 25% in discipline for training and 25% affection--including dog parks and fetch which many others think of as exercise but isn't).

However Fozzie developed a bit of a resource guarding issue with stolen/forbidden objects and people. I tried "claiming the object" with Cesar's methods, just standing there and waiting for fozzie to walk awy. 10 minutes would go by and the dog wouldn't move, he would just get more and more pissed off. we tried "alpha rolling" when he was growling and guarding, which of course scared him more. Finally a few weeks into this, Fozzie started biting because we weren't listening to his signals. We now have a serious issue on our hands. we are working hard with an SF SPCA trained trainer and for now will do no confrontation at all, we are just doing simple exchanges on forbidden objects and removing everything else while we earn his trust back. He literally feared us when we used a certain tone of voice or when we walked up to him in a certain way. We're working hard on it. 

I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for being so stupid. I hope Fozzie will, some day. (FWIW, his recall is 100% as of yesterday...he amazes me with his intelligence and obedience).

Anyway...just one more voice to say that Cesar Millan has done a lot of good, but people should heed the warnings on screen: "seek the advice of a professional" --especially with guarding!


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## Rosary94 (May 17, 2010)

Meanwhile, everyone is talking about Cesar Milian. What about Victoria Stilwell? Forgive me if she was already discussed.

On walks, there's lots of dogs in houses that would bark like crazy once they see Ted. Those that were in their front yards would try and run up to the gate and bark at Ted, and he would bark in retaliation/defense. I used one of her methods by stopping, keeping quiet, and guiding Ted to continue our walk. Now when those dogs bark at him, he just keeps quiet, ignores them, or gives them a quick "Are you stupid?" look.

Addition: 'It's Me or the Dog' is casting in the New York tri-state area. I'm tempted to put in my name, lol.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> I was really a fan of Cesar Millan. Not only was I amazed at how he saved dogs from the needle, he also has a very compelling life story.
> 
> I bought in and used his methods on Fozzie and while many of them were very helpful (in particular, his formula that for every hour you can spend with your pet, half should be in a structured walk, 25% in discipline for training and 25% affection--including dog parks and fetch which many others think of as exercise but isn't).


Okay - why would dog parks and fetch not count as exercise? I mean if my dog is running her heart out at the dog park I DEFINITELY think that is exercise...

I understand the need for structured walks, and we go for daily walks, but I do also include dog parks/fetch as an additional part of my dogs' daily exercise...

So why exactly do these not count?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Okay - why would dog parks and fetch not count as exercise? I mean if my dog is running her heart out at the dog park I DEFINITELY think that is exercise...
> 
> I understand the need for structured walks, and we go for daily walks, but I do also include dog parks/fetch as an additional part of my dogs' daily exercise...
> 
> So why exactly do these not count?


((if I'm wrong sorry xD)) but I think she meant some people use it as their dogs ONLY source of exercise 

and I have to agree with everyone
in our family being super excited and positive works wonders with our dogs, but we've NEVER had a dog like the ones on his show. Each case is different, and should be assessed properly before picking a particular training style

but personally from a completely entertainment view...I'd rather watch _The Dog Whisper_ than _Its me or the dog_...only because Cesars accent makes me melt... >.>

"TSST
TSSSST
We must ignore him until he tires himself out
TSSSSSSSSSST"


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Yes that's what I meant. 

I don't like Victoria Stillwell, though I do watch because i learn. She strikes me as a bit condescending, though again some of those owners are...well...stupid.

But who am I to judge? I'm the one with the resource guarder...:doh:


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

JE-UK said:


> Now THERE'S a use for that misbegotten alpha roll!!
> 
> Is it just me, or do all of CM's dogs look obedient but super-cautious? I never even see them wag their tails at him. Nor the dogs he trains.


I agree, they look shut down. That's what bothers me about CM. He may get results, but I don't think the dogs in his pack are particularly happy. Most of the dogs he helps people with end up obeying but looking miserable while doing so.

CM may do great work with dogs that are otherwise beyond hope. But I wish he would stop giving advice to people with everyday dogs and problems. I felt sick watching him drag that poor dog up and down the stairs who had the fear issue (I think it was a St Bernard?)

IMO CM is all smoke and mirrors when it comes to a lot of things. They may say don't do this at home, but people do anyway, and some of them are creating bigger issues than they had to begin with.

There's one little poodle in the park with some aggression to other dogs. The owner just recently read one of CM's books and is now alpha rolling her every time she growls at another dog. I want to say something but don't feel it's my place so just silently watch. I really hope he doesn't end up with an even more aggressive dog at the end of it, or a dog that turns on him. And don't even get me started on the finger pointing and tsst or whatever it is!

I can't even watch CM as entertainment, as every episode I have seen bothers me. He certainly has made an impact in the world though, so many people bring him up in the park, it's unreal.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

FozziesMom said:


> I don't know if I will ever forgive myself for being so stupid. I hope Fozzie will, some day. (FWIW, his recall is 100% as of yesterday...he amazes me with his intelligence and obedience).
> 
> Anyway...just one more voice to say that Cesar Millan has done a lot of good, but people should heed the warnings on screen: "seek the advice of a professional" --especially with guarding!


I hope you do forgive yourself one day! You do the best that you can, and of course hindsight is 20/20.

Back when my family got our first dog, alpha rolling was the way you dealt with dominant dogs. He was a very dominant and tough little puppy. My mom alpha rolled him and he'd fight and scream for many minutes at a time. As he grew and we realised there were better ways to train, he would never willingly roll on his back for us, and would tense up if we had to do it to him for whatever reason. We were talking about his issues over the week-end and my mom said she felt horrible about the alpha rolling she did. As I said to her then, she did the best with what she knew at the time, and now she knows better.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I hope you do forgive yourself one day! You do the best that you can, and of course hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> Back when my family got our first dog, alpha rolling was the way you dealt with dominant dogs. He was a very dominant and tough little puppy. My mom alpha rolled him and he'd fight and scream for many minutes at a time. As he grew and we realised there were better ways to train, he would never willingly roll on his back for us, and would tense up if we had to do it to him for whatever reason. We were talking about his issues over the week-end and my mom said she felt horrible about the alpha rolling she did. As I said to her then, she did the best with what she knew at the time, and now she knows better.


I bet she did feel bad! I cannot imagine doing "alpha rolling" at all but only with extreme situations. Often I think what to do if a dog physically threatens me or my dogs on walks. 

As some said this method has been around long before CM. I personally never seen him using it but a handful of times on dogs I would not be able to keep in my care. 

Again, I dont think he's a quack - I like him and respect much of what he does because much of what he does do, has the WIIFF methods AND positive renforcement. And training owners that in some cases turned their dogs into babies that listen to nothing and he goes to the other side of getting them to understand affection is great, when its REWARDED (WIIFF). And they need to be dog first.

I find it interesting as does the author of this article refer to many of these well know trainers being very similar in their training. VS, I couldn't be in a room with her for 5 minutes, her voice and demeanor make my skin crawl, but she too makes a lot of sence especially dealing with not so smart owners!:rolffleyes:

Shhh and Alhpa rolls were mentioned a lot in this thread LMAO - but there is such a bigger picture to CM and the mentioned trainers in this article. I have not watched any of them in a while, I am over it. I bore easily. I am ready for something new in dog training TBH.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

My problems with Cesar are this: 

He shows too much on his show. which means people watch it- and think they now know how to train a dog. the number of idiots out there 'alpha rolling' dogs drives me nuts. 

2- i personally think that on many episodes i have seen a lot of the dog's finally behaving is because the dog is physically exhausted. 

i think older episodes are better. I also highly don't trust what he does behind doors after several law suits from injured/hurt/killed dogs and several organizations speaking out against him. 


do you need to be the boss in the house? totally. I think positive reinforcement has it's own group who goes too far to the other extreme- of no negative ever. But i don't think the answer is to have hoards of people thinking they need to be 'alpha' rolling dogs around


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Olie said:


> I bet she did feel bad! I cannot imagine doing "alpha rolling" at all but only with extreme situations. Often I think what to do if a dog physically threatens me or my dogs on walks.
> 
> As some said this method has been around long before CM. I personally never seen him using it but a handful of times on dogs I would not be able to keep in my care.


Yep, this was back in 1989 when we had our first dog! We had this book called SuperPuppy (I just looked and it's still available through Amazon) and they recommended it. Our pup's breeder also recommended alpha rolling back then. Amazon.com: SuperPuppy:How to Raise the Best Dog You'll Ever Have!&#133;

You're right, alpha rolling was around long before CM and then it went out of fashion as understanding of canine behaviour and training grew. What bothers me is he brought it back. And while that may only be one component of what he does, it seems to be the main component that the average dog owner has picked up from him.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

his methods are very old school. 

IE we know clicker training works. Sure we don't clicker train everything under the sun... there still has to be limits and rules. but we KNOW dogs learn faster with it then with out- it's been proven


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have The Voice - very, very rarely used, and therefore hugely effective. It is very similar to the one I remember my mother using in the 1950s when we had pushed her just a bit too far, and a spell in bed was imminent if things didn't improve fast! When I use The Voice they know I really mean it - but they also know that a switch to good behaviour will bring praise and games and even treats, so there is very little fear or stress involved.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Cameo said:


> Understanding animal behavior is not something you can learn from watching any TV show. It takes years of working with animals, studying, researching, hands-on with experienced handlers and animals, etc


I agee 1000% 

I see no problems with CM personally because I actually Know dog behavior and how to deal with dogs. I can see were people who don't know dog behavior or do not know how to train dogs can get in trouble using his methods. Usually most of the dogs that are on his show have really severe behavioral problems. 

I think that everyone should just focus on what works for them and stop arguing about which trainer is right or wrong. I think Fluffyspoos is also right when she said there needs to be a balance of methods. 

All people see on TV is CM correcting the dogs. I am pretty sure he uses postive reinforcement also ( its just never shown on the tv show) We all should know by now how TV shows works lol Its all about ratings

I have been using the same methods CM has been using way before he got his TV show.

I have never really had a problem with most of the dogs I have trained. I even trained a 12 year old rottie not to bite people ( only on command) she would try to bite anyone with out me saying so. I fixed that really quick with methods similar to CM. There was no cruelty involve. I think people just over react and miss use the word cruelty and cruel too often. Correcting a dog is not cruel... what is cruel is beating a dog with a bat and making the dog scared of you.... I do not see this with any of CM dogs they are happy to see him.

I wanted to add also that I only alpha roll if a dog fight breaks out or if the dog is physically trying to bite me or another person. Otherwise Alpha rolling is not needed for everything......


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

cheryl4237 said:


> But most dogs need you to be alpha. Leading is alot of responsibility, and someone has to do it. If you don't make it clear that you are in charge, then they may feel they need to be, and it spirals down from there. If you take up the torch, then they can relax and enjoy That being said, being alpha, does not negate positive reinforcement. I think there is a wonderful balance of being "top dog" without ever needing to be harsh. It's alot like raising children. You love them to death, you don't hurt them ever, but they still need to do what you say, and respect your position in the household.



I completely agree with this! For what it's worth, I like Cesar. Do I agree with ALL of his methods? No. But I agree with the large majority of what he teaches.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> I have The Voice - very, very rarely used, and therefore hugely effective. It is very similar to the one I remember my mother using in the 1950s when we had pushed her just a bit too far, and a spell in bed was imminent if things didn't improve fast! When I use The Voice they know I really mean it - but they also know that a switch to good behaviour will bring praise and games and even treats, so there is very little fear or stress involved.


I also have The Voice ... I so seldom raise my voice to my dog that if he is doing something absolutely verboten, I can roar at him and he instantly stops whatever it is. Like when he thought he was going to chase a sheep the other day, in spite of the extensive anti-sheep training we've done.

I do feel like a bit of a failure when I use it though, since I am a true believer in positive training. When I (the supposedly more intelligent of the two of us, although Vasco disputes this) have to resort to intimidation, it is failure of *my *ability to think through what's motivating my dog and how to motivate him to do what I consider correct behaviour.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree JE - I infinitely prefer reward based training, but safety comes first, and The Voice is a useful deterrent. I was very wary of using it on Poppy at all, as she was a very "soft" puppy when I got her. Then she invented a game of creeping up behind me, and jumping up and biting me on the bottom. Very, very difficult to ignore when it happens unexpectedly, so she always got a huge reaction as I jumped several feet in the air and squealed. She was thinking about trying it out one other people - she used to get a definite gleam in her eye when a promising rear end was ahead of us on our walks - so the next time she did it to me I turned around and roared, rather as an adult dog might have done. One long, considering look, a tail wag, and she never did it again. Some boundaries just need a little more enforcement!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> I agree JE - I infinitely prefer reward based training, but safety comes first, and The Voice is a useful deterrent. I was very wary of using it on Poppy at all, as she was a very "soft" puppy when I got her. Then she invented a game of creeping up behind me, and jumping up and biting me on the bottom. Very, very difficult to ignore when it happens unexpectedly, so she always got a huge reaction as I jumped several feet in the air and squealed. She was thinking about trying it out one other people - she used to get a definite gleam in her eye when a promising rear end was ahead of us on our walks - so the next time she did it to me I turned around and roared, rather as an adult dog might have done. One long, considering look, a tail wag, and she never did it again. Some boundaries just need a little more enforcement!


I think you missed a real opportunity here to turn a 'bad' behaviour into an 'on command' behaviour. Just THINK of how handy this little trick would be when encountering yobbie teenagers! :madgrin:


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I like Cesar Milan as a person (not that I know him or anything, but he appears to be a genuinely nice person on TV...not that TV always shows the true personality of someone), but not as a trainer/behavourist.

I've said it on here before, but my dogs and I are a team. I'm the coach. I set the game plan, and they're free to follow it or not. If they follow the game plan, they get more "ice time", if they don't, they get "benched". As the coach, when my "players" do not follow the game plan, I know I'm doing something wrong, perhaps it's my coaching method, or the game plan itself. For example, I prefer to use positive reinforcement training, but it was just wasn't working with him. 

The most important thing about training is to know your dog, their signals, and their limits.


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

This has been really eye opening for me. I thought I was relatively up on dog training, using positive reinforcement ect - although admittedly I have never had to do this on my own yet. My parents occasionally alpha rolled our westies I think when they began resource guarding. On them, it worked pretty instantly- I guess because terriers aren't what I would call sensitive. I'm not sure why. We obviously never did this with out greyhound. Without this thread I think I might have unwittingly done the same thing to my F.P. (future poodle).

I guess it is time to start reading some more current training books. It is nerve wracking thinking about being a single poodle parent!


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