# Do Dogs Need Fruits And Vegetables



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Good article, but I find all the different articles and information gets to be an information overload. I'll be keeping fruits and vegies as part of Abbey's diet for now.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What I'm gathering is that the fruits and vegetables, starches, even if they're broken down first with say, a Vita Mix (like I was doing) don't get any amylase which is absolutely necessary to be able to utilize anything from those foods until they reach where the pancreas is and that's so far down, that there isn't time for it to be metabolized before it goes out the other end. They would have to have _salivary_ amylase and they don't. What it does apparently, that concerns me is triggers the pancreas to work harder than normal to produce_ more_ amylase and that is hard on the pancreas. 

When you really think about it, dogs, wild dogs, wolves (which are only a couple percentage points different from dogs' dna and exactly the same digestive system, anatomically and physiologically)...aren't seen grazing on fields of wheat or picking apples off a tree? Now, that is not to say that our scavenging, opportunistic dogs won't eat those things. They do. Mine use to pick raspberries off my bushes after I picked them and handed them a few. They'd dig up carrots out of my garden when they saw me picking some for my horses. lol. But I think that's more behavioral than a dietary necessary. Mostly wild canines eat prey animals that have eaten vegetation but it's already been digested. 

It is a debate and warrants more study, which I always tend to do until I exhaust every possibility. lol. But for now, I'm going to skip the vegetable and fruit category. The raw feeding forum I have been going on has a lot of very experienced raw feeders who have been doing this for a long time and their dogs seem to really thrive. They are really good sources of info too. Most of those people feed a _prey model diet_, which excludes plant material. So, I've been teetering or going back and forth a little bit as to whether or not to do veggies and at this time I'm inclined to follow the prey model.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I believe recent research into wolf diets in summer and autumn shows that they actually eat quite significant quantities of fruit and other vegetable matter. I give my dogs cooked vegetables, complete with the broth they were cooked in. Not in huge quantities, but sufficient to plug any nutritional gaps. And this evening Sophy feasted on frozen peas after a bag spilled all over the kitchen floor - I suspect those will reappear pretty intact! I have noticed that the dogs are less desperate to eat droppings from vegetarian animals when they get a suitable amount of green and orange stuff regularly, and I have always reckoned that sort of pica indicates a need to fulfill a nutritional deficiency. But I also think dogs thrive on all sorts of diets, and you need to find the one that works for you and your animals.


----------



## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

I don't generally feed veggies. The base of the diet I feed is a ground mix, and I might feed 5 days of a meat and veg blend out of the month. I feed the same diet to my mpoo and my cat, so I stay with low veggies. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I think, in the end, you have to look at each dog individually. 

My dogs personally, when I tried PMR (following the folks who said they only need meat, bone and organ, because that's how the wolves do it), I had dogs GORGING on grass the moment I let them outside to pee. Eventually they ate the grass, roots and dirt, frantically. 
I complained to the PMR people (was on a forum) and they told me I was "doing it wrong." Err... I'm following YOUR protocols PMR people! How am I doing it wrong?

Once i added back in veggie mush and some grains (rice, oats), the frantic grass and dirt eating ceased. 
Their hair coats also deteriorated, two of my dogs (PWD with improper shedding coat and long coat chihuahua) lost coat condition. It turned patchy and short and horribly wire instead of full, soft and shiny. I believe that for my dogs, PMR is not ideal or balanced or "what nature intended" in any way. 

It's hard to know what's what these days, isn't it? Personally I feel like we shouldn't feed them like they're cats. Dogs LOVE veggies and taters and grains and fruit. Why wouldn't I offer that up? Plus, lets just say they were eating live prey? They also eat a good deal of skin/hair. That's fiber for good digestive health. Grains and vegetable matter can take the place of that skin/hair. 

People celebrate the rock-hard, white, hard, raw-fed dog poo. I, personally, couldn't' imagine having to try to poo that out every day. 

But that's my humble thoughts on that, for my own dogs. 

These days they get Fromm dry, canned, yogurt, cottage cheese, canned fish, fresh cooked beef, chicken or fish, melon, berries, fresh broccoli, cauliflower, lettuce stumps, etc. Everyone is thriving. 

So anyway, long story short- look to your dogs, they'll give you the answer.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, it definitely requires more research, at least for me. They _will_ eat all kinds of things. The question is, does that mean that they_ should _have those things? Just like kids...hey will eat McDonalds every day but should they? I think wild animals might get unlucky when hunting sometimes and they get hungry. So maybe that's why they eat berries. Or because they taste sweet and mammals all love sweets the way I love cookies. I know they have been seen eating those things at times and when in season, according to David Mech, leading wolf expert who studied wolves in their natural habitat for over a decade. So maybe. But then I read about how they lack the amylase to utilize vegetation and in fact, can over-work the pancreas... and it sets me squarely on the fence. lol.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I think, in the end, you have to look at each dog individually.
> 
> My dogs personally, when I tried PMR (following the folks who said they only need meat, bone and organ, because that's how the wolves do it), I had dogs GORGING on grass the moment I let them outside to pee. Eventually they ate the grass, roots and dirt, frantically.
> I complained to the PMR people (was on a forum) and they told me I was "doing it wrong." Err... I'm following YOUR protocols PMR people! How am I doing it wrong?
> ...



Oh no! I don't know who would want that!!! Who told you that? Matisse had that after a couple days when I first started raw feeding. I knew it was too much bone and cut back at once! You do not want it that hard or white. That shows an imbalance....way too much bone. I don't know why your dogs had all those problems because a lot of people don't feed vegetables since they can't digest them anyhow and their dogs don't have all that trouble. So that is perplexing. 

I read that article and it makes sense to me. But I'll keep reading. I never feel that there's too much information, as long as it's from a good source. That's the hard thing to determine sometimes. I think I'll go back and read some of David Mech's work, as it's been several years since I did. Maybe there will be something more revealed.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I fed a BARF type of diet, not PMR. (My impression, based on the FB group I was a member of--briefly--was that the PRM people were a bit more rabid than I was comfortable with. Sometimes it seemed like a competition about who fed the oldest frozen food or the grossest road kill or how many times they had to put the hog's head back in the refrigerator before the dogs finished it.) 

My dogs didn't get a lot of plant-based food, maybe a tablespoon with each meal (we fed twice a day), not so much for nutritive value, but, as Shamrockmommy says, to replace the fiber they didn't get from hair, skin, etc. They got eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, sardines, etc., in addition to meat, mostly beef and chicken. I also added a kelp-based powder for iodine and fish oil for omega-3 fatty acids.

Our old Lab's coat improved, he was a bit less foggy, and he had more energy. Jazz thrived, too.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

JudyD said:


> I fed a BARF type of diet, not PMR. (My impression, based on the FB group I was a member of--briefly--was that the PRM people were a bit more rabid than I was comfortable with. Sometimes it seemed like a competition about who fed the oldest frozen food or the grossest road kill or how many times they had to put the hog's head back in the refrigerator before the dogs finished it.)
> 
> My dogs didn't get a lot of plant-based food, maybe a tablespoon with each meal (we fed twice a day), not so much for nutritive value, *but, as Shamrockmommy says, to replace the fiber they didn't get from hair, skin,* etc. They got eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, sardines, etc., in addition to meat, mostly beef and chicken. I also added a kelp-based powder for iodine and fish oil for omega-3 fatty acids.
> 
> Our old Lab's coat improved, he was a bit less foggy, and he had more energy. Jazz thrived, too.



This is what I was thinking about while on my walk today, as I was noticing some coyote poo in the big field where I turn the wee ones loose and make lots of noise to scare any potential coyotes away. There is hair in their poo, of course. It didn't get digested but it must bulk up their poo. So perhaps some undigestable fiber of some sort is needed. I don't know. Do dogs for sure need fiber? Or is that something we omnivores need? And since it is not common to get whole meats necessarily....with the hair or feathers still on them, our dogs _might_ just be missing something. (I think those things might have manganese too) I had a vet tech tell me once, when we were discussing Science Diet and I, saying something about all that corn etc, that some undigestable fiber is good for them. I don't think the diet should be ALL corn like Science diet is though. lol.

So, I just don't know. Until last night, I was feeding a vegetable mix of things like zucchini, mixed greens (spinach, chard, whatever else they put in those big bags) some green beans, carrots, yam sometimes, and a little pumpkin...1/2 tsp also. I was giving these tiny dogs about 1/2 tsp twice a day on their meals. Maurice doesn't dig that stuff but sometimes would eat it if it had plenty of pumpkin. That, he likes all right. Then I thought that with that, it means less meat for them. Maybe not good. Oh goodness.:ahhhhh: That article though above, don't you think there's some good logic in that? I wish there were a definitive answer. :argh:


----------



## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

fjm said:


> I believe recent research into wolf diets in summer and autumn shows that they actually eat quite significant quantities of fruit and other vegetable matter. I give my dogs cooked vegetables, complete with the broth they were cooked in. Not in huge quantities, but sufficient to plug any nutritional gaps. And this evening Sophy feasted on frozen peas after a bag spilled all over the kitchen floor - I suspect those will reappear pretty intact! I have noticed that the dogs are less desperate to eat droppings from vegetarian animals when they get a suitable amount of green and orange stuff regularly, and I have always reckoned that sort of pica indicates a need to fulfill a nutritional deficiency. But I also think dogs thrive on all sorts of diets, and you need to find the one that works for you and your animals.


i read the same article


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

I have come to the conclusion - from reading, as you have poodlebeguiled, from multiple sources as well as from observation of Dulcie with and without vegetables and fruits - that at least some vegetable/fruit matter is helpful and useful in the diet. There are trace minerals and vitamins which are more readily available through vegetable/fruit sources and I am not a fan of lab-made supplements. 

IN anecdotal "evidence" (sample of one, so take it as just that - a single data point), when I had Dulcie on a strictly PMR diet, for about two weeks, she began to exhibit scavenger behavior which was new for her. I mean, she would pull hard on the leash to get to discarded food and such lying in the gutters etc on our walks. She was impossible to distract from this. It was completely new behavior for her and quite disturbing. She was being fed 3% of her body weight in PMR - and very high quality to boot. I mentioned this to my daughter and she suggested I bring back a little of the Honest Kitchen base mix. I agreed it was worth a try to see if that might help, even though I had gradually become convinced that she just didn't need veggies or fruit. Well, within a day or so of bringing back a small amount of HK added to her raw meals each day, the scavenging behavior went away again.

I am now convinced that dogs do best with a diet primarily of PMR, but with a small amount of veggie/fruit slurry. Something about it seems to fulfill another need in the dog.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you Nifty. And thank you everyone. I am so wishy washy on this. I just don't know. But they were doing fine when I had them on a small amount of veggies. They don't seem to like berries but they do like bananas. And their opinion of the green matter (steamed lightly and pulverized) varies. Maurice would just as soon skip it. Matisse and Jose` are like "Mikey." They eat everything. 

That behavior you describe, my dogs always do. They like to scavenge for poo. It probably tastes about as good as it did before it came out. (To them) :afraid: But they don't seem desperate about it or pull on the leash to get to something. That's odd that your Dulcie did that and then it stopped when you went back to veggies. No one on the PMR forum I go on seems to have problems and they don't feed veggies. Well, I take that back. Some dogs have issues but no more than dogs on commercial. You know...things like a little colitis or irritation some times. 

Well, I'm so back and forth and indecisive about this. I must keep on researching. That bit about the pancreas (in that article)kind of bothers me. Did you read it? Until I have every last drop of information or education, (I know. I'm neurotic:2in1 at least for the time being, you've convinced me. The next convincing article I read about the lack of amylase and inability to digest vegetation and the harm it does to the pancreas will be the next time I switch to no vegetables. They'll probably get them some days and not others, depending on what article I read.:argh: 

Tomorrow's breakfast thawing:

Still have some of this in the freezer.



Sardines: (they only eat about half of one or a tad more depending on size. I pick the meat off the bone for Jose` because he doesn't chew bones. He gets egg shells or bone meal)






:hungry:


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

On re-reading the article, I think the emphasis is on not making plants (fruit, veg and carbohydrates) a major part of the diet, as tends to be the case in cheaper commercial foods, rather than eliminating them altogether. And I also think that individual dogs have different dietary needs - I can prove that from my enormous sample of two! So there is always going to be bit of trial and error - the main thing is to see the dog in front of you. If he or she is thriving, you are probably getting it right; if not, I reckon it is better to ignore the purists (whether they be the dieticians employed by the big commercial pet food companies, or advocates of BARF. Prey Model, Canine Paleo, etc, etc) and try something else, always with one eye on the known science!


----------



## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

I haven't read enough to offer an opinion .I do give a little fruits and veggies in Zoe's diet.
I feel science has proven it is healthy for us and I try to encourage my children to eat their fruit and veggies, so why not for Zoe too.
I do not give her too much because she has a sensitive stomach and notice her stool gets loose with large amounts.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh no! I don't know who would want that!!! Who told you that?


It was back in the day when people were switching from BARF diets to PMR and everyone seemed to be happy for "easy to pick up" chalky white poo. 

Nowadays I know it's frowned upon.

I dunno, thing is, dogs thrive on a number of different diets, so as long as your dogs are doing well with what you're feeding, go for it  "looking good" to me means nice skin and coat, healthy ears, no belching or farting, good poo, no frantic grass eating, or worse, dirt eating. 

You can do annual bloodwork, too, to make sure things are looking good.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

"The next convincing article I read about the lack of amylase and inability to digest vegetation and the harm it does to the pancreas will be the next time I switch to no vegetables. "

Seriously, don't sweat it. I've had dogs for 20 years now, and they've had some sort of carbohydrate (grain, potato, veggie, fruit) in their diets daily. One got pancreatitis after a lovely time perusing the trash can. Other than that, every single dogs' pancreas has been perfectly fine. 

I get you on the wishy-washy feeling about feeding dogs!! I used to spend hours, days! even researching this diet, that diet. I have fed Volhard raw diet from scratch, I've used their NDF and NDF2 products (really liked the ease of feeding but the brewer's yeast makes them itch terribly), I"ve tried BARF, PMR, Sojos premix, Honest Kitchen, kibbles, canned, home cooked, everything but vegetarian. I have several books on dog diets as well! I made myself sick with worry and wasn't enjoying the dogs!

So once I had kids, my time was limited for preparing dog meals, and I used Fromm dry and canned primarily. They looked just as good, and in some cases, had better coat than some of the other feeding methods. 

I think what I was trying to do, was be a "good mom" and prevent their death, somehow. Like one food had a magical property over another, and that would mean I'd see my dog well into their late teens. I even patted myself on my back. I put down others who fed only dry food. 

And then my first dog, who ate some sort of raw for 90% of his life, passed at 14 from heart failure. My second dog, who ate raw for 60% of her life also passed at age 13 from heart failure. 
My third dog just passed last Saturday at age 14 from liver cancer. She ate raw or homemade 40% of her life and then ate kibble plus extras. 

I can't fight nature. 

As long as your dog's diet isn't one thing all the time, and unbalanced in that sense, I think you'll do a pretty good job.

If you're worried, I really like Monica Segal's books, as she balances them according to NRC guidelines- eliminates the worry and you are giving human grade food, knowing exactly what's in it. 

Occasionally I make a batch of her "Enhancing Commercial Dog Diets" recipe and the dogs love it. 

Hope this helps, you are a good momma no matter which way you go, and I don't think adding veggies/fruit mix is bad at all.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> "The next convincing article I read about the lack of amylase and inability to digest vegetation and the harm it does to the pancreas will be the next time I switch to no vegetables. "
> 
> Seriously, don't sweat it. I've had dogs for 20 years now, and they've had some sort of carbohydrate (grain, potato, veggie, fruit) in their diets daily. One got pancreatitis after a lovely time perusing the trash can. Other than that, every single dogs' pancreas has been perfectly fine.
> 
> ...



Every time I get obsessive trying to figure out the "best diet" for my dogs, I try to remember that it was my childhood dogs - one of whom ate nothing but tables scraps (pizza crust was his fav), and another who dinned on such delights as Ganes Burgers, and Lollipups, and whatever she got raiding the kitchen trash almost daily who lived to 19-20 years old. 
Me, all my dogs as an adult that I have worked so hard to feed "the best" only made it to 12-13 years old. Teaka, who will be 14 the end of May is already my longest lived dog as an adult. Teaka and Tangee were only 6 months apart in age, but from different breeders, totally different gene pool, and obviously they had the same of everything, diet, environment, etc., yet Tangee's body was trying to give up on her shortly after she turned ten (only veterinary science kept her going longer), and Teaka looks like she is aiming to see 20. So I think feed them a decent reasonable diet, get them the appropriate Vet care, but the most important thing that you can do for their health is to choose your breeder wisely, because for the most part their destiny was written in their DNA code at the moment that they were conceived....


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Shammrockmommy...that's what the one vet I talked to said. I asked him how I would know if something is unbalanced because some of these things don't show up right away. But he said if they are energetic, have nice skin and hair, bright, shiny eyes, they're likely fine. He's the one that said it sounds like I'm doing it right. So one vet who seems to get it. Amazing, huh. I think they're getting a very good diet of fresh food. That's the main thing for me...that it's fresh, not something overly processed and that I know what is going into them. I trust myself more than a big food company like Nestles (big, huh, lol) who doesn't love my dogs the way I do. As long as I have enough education behind me. That's where I get a little shaky. But I'm feeling better and better all the time...more confident. 

Fjm... thanks for your take on it. I will re-read that article too and look for others. I wonder if, when this vegetable matter is softened by steaming and broken down in the Vita Mix machine to basically a liquid, if then, does it still need _salivary_ amylase in order that it is broken down _enough_ to be absorbed into the blood stream through capillaries in the walls of the intestines, as everything must be to get nutrients? That's the clincher. No salivary amylase in carnivores. That's why veggies don't quite make sense to me. I suppose a small amount won't hurt though and if some gets metabolized, then that would be extra vitamins for them and maybe that factor of being undigetable roughage might make up for no hair or feathers in their diet. (?) 

Well, thank you guys for your comments. I will take them all in and re-read them. It is indeed interesting how some of you saw a big difference when not feeding vegetables and when you went back to feeding them. 

Shammrockmommy...I hear ya. They're going to get something at some stage and this probably isn't going to make or break that. I had dogs who lived on Purina dog chow live to be 18 and 15. (not toy breeds either) Back then though, I hear that the dog food was better. I don't know if that's true or not. I think a premium dog food these days is _probably_ better than an el cheapo one like Old Roy or Beneful. That stuff killed some dogs or made them very ill. But to see my dogs eating real food that is fresh makes me feel better. It equates to us eating processed food out of a box vs. eating fresh, whole food. It's not so hard to do, now that I'm getting use to it...a little extra work packaging things and organizing, cleaning up afterwards etc.


----------



## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

" Back then though, I hear that the dog food was better. "

Back then, Purina used by-products for their protein source. You know that raw feeders celebrate that fact, and they make sure some sort of organ is included in their diets. Back then, it was OK to give table scraps. back then dogs bodies weren't assaulted with vaccines, heart worm meds, flea/tick meds, etc. Things are different. Some of it is good, others, not so much. 

In the '80s, the whole "real meat" or "chicken is first ingredient" crazy began, which turned into by-products are just beaks and feathers! (probably organs mostly, good, healthful sources of protein and nutrition)

And marketing has gotten involved in ridiculous ways, with pretty pictures and carefully worded ingredient panels. 

It's enough to make your head spin! 

When I was homecooking for a while for the dogs, I found comfort in my grandmother (in her 80s now), telling me she fed their farm dogs and my mom's pet chihuahua leftovers. Whatever they ate, the dog ate. PLUS scraps from slaughtering the cow, pig or lamb. She recalls the dogs living to around 10. Farm dog life is a hard life. 

Anyway, I've read and researched and tried far more than I care to admit to! LOL
I've settled with Fromm, because the dogs have always done very well, no health issues. Although, I'm a little irritated, they recently changed their canned formulations, so we'll see how Jack does. 

we do the best we can with the knowledge we have.


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Poodlebeguiled, yes I read that interesting article. The reference to the pancreas having to "work harder" did not cause me any concern whatsoever. It may indeed be true that the pancreas will do its job more frequently on certain diets, and I think that it not a big concern. The writer does not cite any evidence that this "working harder" by the pancreas has been shown to lead to severe health consequences related to the pancreas in the general population of dogs. The writer seems to merely mention it as a concern in itself, as if the organ having to do its job on a regular basis is something to avoid. I liken it to one of the arguments against vaccinating children - where those against current vaccine recommendations object to it on the grounds that making the body produce the antibodies for multiple pathogens is somehow a bad thing to be avoided - even though the body is actually well-designed to do just that.

I don't buy that an organ which is perfectly capable of handling certain tasks will somehow be harmed by having to perform that task regularly. Certainly, some individual dogs will wind up with problems of the pancreas and these will present more quickly with a diet which requires pancreatic involvement, and yet the problem there, in my opinion, would be a defect in the pancreas rather than a problem with a diet. Naturally, the diet - for _that individual dog_ - would then have to be adjusted to remove the foods which need the pancreas for digestion, but that is another matter entirely in my view. I don't think that eliminating foods needing pancreatic contribution to digestion needs to be eliminated generally for all dogs, just as I do not think all humans ought to be on a low sugar, diabetic diet because some humans have malfunctioning pancreases affected by diet. Does that make sense?

I agree with fjm and others who said "look at the dog in front of you". While there are general feeding principles which are helpful for all dogs, I think the finer points of diet must be adjusted for individual dogs as we observe how they do on certain foods.


----------



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

nifty said:


> Hi Poodlebeguiled, yes I read that interesting article. The reference to the pancreas having to "work harder" did not cause me any concern whatsoever. It may indeed be true that the pancreas will do its job more frequently on certain diets, and I think that it not a big concern. The writer does not cite any evidence that this "working harder" by the pancreas has been shown to lead to severe health consequences related to the pancreas in the general population of dogs. The writer seems to merely mention it as a concern in itself, as if the organ having to do its job on a regular basis is something to avoid. I liken it to one of the arguments against vaccinating children - where those against current vaccine recommendations object to it on the grounds that making the body produce the antibodies for multiple pathogens is somehow a bad thing to be avoided - even though the body is actually well-designed to do just that.
> 
> I don't buy that an organ which is perfectly capable of handling certain tasks will somehow be harmed by having to perform that task regularly. Certainly, some individual dogs will wind up with problems of the pancreas and these will present more quickly with a diet which requires pancreatic involvement, and yet the problem there, in my opinion, would be a defect in the pancreas rather than a problem with a diet. Naturally, the diet - for _that individual dog_ - would then have to be adjusted to remove the foods which need the pancreas for digestion, but that is another matter entirely in my view. I don't think that eliminating foods needing pancreatic contribution to digestion needs to be eliminated generally for all dogs, just as I do not think all humans ought to be on a low sugar, diabetic diet because some humans have malfunctioning pancreases affected by diet. Does that make sense?
> 
> I agree with fjm and others who said "look at the dog in front of you". While there are general feeding principles which are helpful for all dogs, I think the finer points of diet must be adjusted for individual dogs as we observe how they do on certain foods.



When it comes to muscles, lungs, and heart we know making them work hard causes them to be healthy and stronger - it could very well be the same for other organs!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The thing is Nifty, for one example, (I don't know that much about enzymes) but remember some of what I learned in my anatomy and physiology classes way back when...is that the isles of Langerhans in the pancreas, which is where insulin is produced can run out. If the pancreas is over-taxed to handle an excessive and long term over- use of sugar, there is a finite supply of insulin. Then we see diabetes. As far as enzymes, there are environmental things that can damage them and reduce them so that they do not do their job as well as they use to. They are very necessary in the proper digestion of food. My worry is that dogs do not produce salivary amylase and the little they do produce is done in the pancreas where it's already too late in the process, adding to that problem, that short digestive tract where the food isn't in there for very long like it is in ours. So, it may be that carbohydrates really aren't very good for dogs if long term. And cooking destroys enzymes or many of them. 

I know what you mean...that dogs can survive on all kinds of things or lack of things. They certainly have come a long way baby since their branching off from wolves some many thousands of years ago. They're survivors any way you slice it. But the question is, which kind of food is the most optimum. I'm convinced of the raw diet vs cooked. I'm just a little unsure about the carbohydrates that are in vegetables, fruits and starches. That all turns to glucose eventually. In our case, the second it hits our tongue it begins to be broken down. In dogs' case, not until it's just about at the end of the alimentary canal are there enzymes to break down carbs. I want to know what are dogs really _designed_ to eat.


I'm going on a walk now but if I get a chance when I get back, I'll see if I can dig up anything else. I know what you mean about the author of that article lacking any listed credentials or citations or sources. So it makes you unsure of all the info provided sometimes.


----------



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

You make some excellent points. I think you're on to something that dogs certainly don't need carbs in the quantities we often see in their foods, and the veggies and fruits can certainly be reduced>

For me, a fresh raw diet of assorted meats, bone and organs, a tiny amount of veggies/fruits and no grains or other carbs except what is in the veggies and fruits is what I feel most comfortable feeding. I respect the decisions of others to feed a variety of different diets and I am always interested in reading about the experiences of others. I try to stay open to new approaches as I take in new information. 

Thank you for sharing these interesting topics!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh gosh...don't think I'm trying to convince anyone to change what they're comfortable with. I am just fascinated with this and would like to know for real what goes on in their digestion process, all the science... and whether or not to include carbs such as vegetables and fruits. Grains are already off the table for sure. It sounds like we feed very much alike. I stay away now from ground meat and from store bought anything. But do keep one bag of store bought just in case for a doggie sitter or what have you to make it easier. Oh, and Trader Joe's treats. 

As I dig up articles and post them, it's purely for interest, not to try and change anyone's mind or convince them of anything. I might find something tomorrow and post it and say, "Hey, lookie here! I found something really cool!" LOL. Of course, maybe I'm the only one who thinks it's really cool. I get a little ocd when I start to learn about something. Really, seriously won't let it go too easily until I get to the bottom of things. lol. You should have seen how ocd I got practicing the piano before a wedding I was to play for. I had a stack of new music to learn and had to get it flawless. I practiced for something like 15 or more! hours a day with some short breaks for meals and a smoke. This went on for a couple months until I ruined my tendons in my wrists for a very long time. It's finally better now after physical therapy and steroids and a _lot_ of money on doctors and therapists. I only got $100 for playing at the wedding and I pulled it off without a missed note. lol. But that's what I do. I'm interested in this nutrition thing for dogs and I won't stop until I have as many answers as I think could possibly need ever. lol. 

But when I say, "all the science," maybe it's not really science at all. We can look at what a dog eats in the wild. Mostly prey animals, some berries I guess, as they're opportunistic...hardly ever the stomach except for small animals so it doesn't look like much in the way of vegetables. Hmmm. Still on the fence for now. And I can't see feeding my dogs something with hair or feathers still on it, which would be more natural, huh. Of course, they did drag back part of a deer leg from the woods on my property where I use to live. It was gross. I let them chew on it for a while, then threw it far up in the woods, which didn't work. They brought it back and flies were getting on it. I had to drive it miles and miles away and toss it in the woods. lol. If I were feeding raw like I am now, I might have kept it. But it was a weight bearing bone, including the hoof. Eeeek!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I had an interesting example of dog differences this morning. In my continuing efforts to improve the dogs' teeth I gave them big chunks of meat (well, as big as they can be for tiny dogs!). Sophy chewed hers happily; Poppy gulped hers, and then walked in ever decreasing circles whimpering and moaning until I helped her to regurgitate the lump. Ho hum...


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> I had an interesting example of dog differences this morning. In my continuing efforts to improve the dogs' teeth I gave them big chunks of meat (well, as big as they can be for tiny dogs!). Sophy chewed hers happily; Poppy gulped hers, and then walked in ever decreasing circles whimpering and moaning until I helped her to regurgitate the lump. Ho hum...



Well, that doesn't sound like a very fun morning. I know what you mean. Jose` tends to eat VERY fast. Matisse, kind of too. It worries me with Matisse eating his bones but he seems to be pretty careful. So those finished a while ago. Maurice is still in his crate working away on his duck foot. lol. 

I'm sure Poppy must feel better now. You know how "they" say to give large pieces of things...big hunks of meat and bones so they can have a real challenge to rip and tear...plus "they" say small pieces can choke them. Well, my idea is that certain sizes, if caught or inhaled in the wrong place can choke then whatever large pieces they chew up into smaller pieces first can still potentially choke. And very large pieces can cause trouble like poor Poppy had. So I don't know. With certain things, I tend to cut them up very small and let them get their chewing satisfaction from bones and chunks of tripe which is quite hard and rough, cross my fingers that no one chokes and so far, so good. Knock on wood. Do you _usually_ chop up small or give bigger hunks?


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The dogs usually get mince, or wings, but when I do give larger pieces they tend to be strips - these were halved pig cheeks. Poppy's will be cut up in future (would it be too much info if I admit that I rinsed off the unchewed chunk, chopped it up, and she wolfed it down again?!). Useful to discover how to help her regurgitate, though - I more or less upended her while rubbing her tummy... 

I am always a bit amused by the people who advocate giving big boney chunks and removing them when the dog has had the right amount - they either set a series of timers or keep a beady eye on multiple dogs for up to half an hour. I did try it once, and quickly got fed up with having most of a shelf in the fridge occupied by increasingly fluffy and smelly lumps of meat and bone for days on end. And then there is the problem of them eating all the meat first (2 or 3 days, probably) and then getting to the bone. I'm wary of even giving mine supposedly recreational bones after getting sidetracked and waking up, 15 minutes later, to no bones and two distended dogs with incipient cases of painful constipation! This evening they had complete minced chicken rounded off with a few salted almonds, and a couple of pistachios for Sophy (she gets the ones I can't open - which interestingly seem to be just about the only things that chip the tartar off her teeth). I have filled up the sitting room water bowl because of the salt, but otherwise we are getting to be very relaxed about this diet business!


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I always say, "waste not, want not"...you re-used the pig cheeks. I never saw pig cheeks in the places I shop. Interesting! So is that a very big bone? Yes, it's unnerving when they get a little constipated. This morning I noticed Maurice's poo looked a little on the yellow side and just a little too hard, not completely. All they had was a duck foot yesterday. Those aren't very big. I was planning on another this morning since I package them 4 to a bag but plans are changing. No bone this morning. lol. Interesting how you have to be flexible according to poo quality. :ahhhhh: 

Well, hopefully, you won't have anymore issues like that again. I think the smaller pieces are probably a better choice for our tiny dogs. They can get their teeth cleaned from the bones and the chewing satisfaction from bones and tripe that is so tough and rough. They don't need_ so_ much satisfaction all the time do they? I mean, isn't it enough that a bunch of small pieces of leg of lamb must taste awfully good that they don't need to also have all kinds of fun tearing at it? Isn't chewing it and swallowing good enough, the ungrateful little twerps? lol.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I saw something interesting on the Rabbits4u FB page. There's a "pet nutritionist" named Fran Griffin (no idea what, if any credentials she has) who will have a new website and blog up next week. She was answering a question on the FB page about overfeeding leading to loose stools. Might be worth looking at.


----------



## kellystar (Feb 27, 2016)

I highly doubt there is any damage we're doing to our pets by giving fruits & veggies in very small quantities. Unless I supplement with fiber, my dog has diarrhea or very loose stools without the fiber in veggies & fruits. Even holistic vets recommend some veggies and fruits, its just important to research and be careful on what is allowed and what isn't.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, I see you did post here. LOL. I was just looking at the other thread and mentioned this one. haha. 

Well, there are various schools of thought. I will see what else I can find when I get some more time. I'm glad that you're joining in the conversation. Love lots of angles.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

JudyD said:


> I saw something interesting on the Rabbits4u FB page. There's a "pet nutritionist" named Fran Griffin (no idea what, if any credentials she has) who will have a new website and blog up next week. She was answering a question on the FB page about overfeeding leading to loose stools. Might be worth looking at.



Oh, I forgot to get back here sooner. Darn, I don't do FB but I'd like to see her website. I am still researching. lol.

Here's something I found that I think is informative. And as far as eating berries or grasses occasionally, I think there are reasons for this that may not have to do with nutritional needs so much as taste...mammals like sweet things and perhaps availability. They're scavengers and will eat all kinds of things. But the question is, do they really need carbohydrates. 

When you read this, that first quoted paragraph remember, is the "myth." It's about myths and then some info to explain things. I don't know who's right still but it sounds plausible to me. lol.

Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?


> But do most dogs really need carbohydrates? In the Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition (2nd edition, 1988), we read that
> "There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."
> 
> How can this be? Let us discuss just how the dog and cat are able to fulfill their requirement for glucose through a diet of raw meat, bones, and organs.


And then further explanation continues. Very interesting.


----------

