# Hand biting (scraping)



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

have you considered working with a trainer? unlike some, i don't think pinch collars/e-collars are intrinsically evil, but i think skill in their use (as with any tool) matters a great deal. i think i would first try finding a trainer whom you trust not to damage your dog and who could help you determine if the collars are the best way to go or if there are better alternatives given your dog's temperament and personality.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I suspect that the hand scraping is down to allowing, or even encouraging, the hand mouthing. He has not really learned that human skin is very, very fragile. I would take a two part approach. First I would redirect him to a suitable toy when he wants to mouth - keeping one by the door, one in my pocket, etc, etc so there was always one available. I would keep my hands out of reach, give him the toy instead, and praise and pet him for taking it. I would strictly limit games of tug, using longer toys, and letting go the moment his teeth began to move up towards my hand. The fun is on having someone to play with - he plays with you by your rules or plays by himself! At the same time I would do lots and lots of work on impulse control - there are many good ideas on the net, and Kikopup's videos are a good place to start. I would look into no-pull harnesses as a kinder solution to the tugging than a pinch collar, and invest in one of those leads that include a shock absorber. And I would find a good, reward based local training class and enrol forthwith - you have a big, sweet, lumbering, joyful, intelligent adolescent on your hands, and he needs lots of help learning to control himself. Agility is wonderful, but it can also be very exciting - a calmer basic good manners class would provide an easier environment to work on the sort of issues you describe. He is very young - I am sure he will improve quickly if you are persistent and consistent!

I certainly would not use an e-collar - far, far too risky for such a non- life threatening behaviour. And I think there are now better solutions to pulling than using aversive pinch and choke collars.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I would absolutely NOT use any collar that causes pain to your exuberant, joyful pup. He'll lose that and might associate the pain with something other than his behavior...something in the environment, you, the toy he's playing with. He can easily miss the intended association. He's not aware of what he's doing and isn't likely thinking about his behavior. What I would suggest is when you're interacting with him, playing with him and he touches your skin with his teeth...if it's the slightest bit painful, game over immediately, abruptly and consistently. Give him another try at the game within a minute and see how he does. The second his teeth scrape or hurt you in the slightest way, again....game stops. Don't end it for long or it will take longer for him to make the connection. Only 30 seconds or so...total ignore, toy taken away, your back turned or you can walk away. Then another try. Absolute consistency is key. Playing and otherwise interacting with you must never work for him if he hurts with his teeth. If you like the gentle mouthing as a bonding thing, there's no reason you can't keep that. He is capable of learning to regulate his teeth. He simply needs to learn what amount of pressure, what kind of mouthing is going to work and what kind isn't. I'd suggest when you're playing with him, to discourage it by the means mentioned. When you're sitting quietly with him on the floor or couch and you're having a cuddling time and you enjoy that gentle mouthing, that's when it's allowed.

Playing tug is a great game but you need to make rules that go with it. I'd try to keep it somewhat lower key for the time being and use just one toy for that game. Teach him "give" and "take" so you choose when he gets to have it. If he takes it roughly, the game stops. Try again. He must learn to give it when asked and teeth on skin mean game over.

Remember, he's doing this because it's been reinforcing to him. Take away the reinforcer and the behavior will extinguish. Stop the thing he's enjoying when he's doing this behavior. Give another try, repeat. Be consistent. Yes, redirect to another way to play. But I would be careful with punishment, as there can be some un-thought of fall-out with that.

With the leash walking, I'd work on some self control exercises before getting out there where there is too much stimuli for him. More obedience training. Lots of reinforcement for wanted behavior etc. Kiko pup as Fjm suggested is wonderful. Look at her videos. Is he getting plenty of exercise? Does he get to do the zoomies in his yard a lot? Really important and lots of mental exercise. aka: obedience training, tricks etc.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

The hand scraping thing sounds much like an impulse control thing as well. I'd make general impulse control training a priority for quite some time, for all kinds of behaviours and situations. If your boy has an excitable temperament, and he sound like that, impulse control really needs to be the solid ground of all his training, all of his life most likely, to avoid problems later on. In the worst case you could be dealing with a dog that has learned how to get himself worked up on some form of self-rewarding behaviour, then cause lots of trouble while high on "excite-e-sterone".

In any case, garnering from what I've learned from kikopup and a bunch of varying method books I've been studying, your boy should probably be doing less of excitable things such as agility and getting rough with toys, and more of calmer, more puzzley stuff such as doing calm tricks (no running and jumping), nosework, touchstick work, and such. This will not solve the problem but it will help you both since he'll be less likely to be all steamed-up and more easily focused.

The "OUCH" method of teaching no mouthing/biting/roughhousing etc. is a form of negative punishment: if the thing to be discouraged happens, something nice is taken away. In this case, the fun and games stop. The human is supposedly hurt, thus the yelp. Depending on the dog, just a cry and a few moments of boredom might be enough (like it was for a very sweet soft Cocker I knew), and others need a bigger show to get that the yelp is not just a thing the human says when certain games are played. And by a big show I mean, you need to sound like someone stabbed your hand, then stop the game entirely (and take the toy away), and retire to "recover". The consequence needs to be really boring. If the game soon continues or there's fun to be had in some other way, the dog doesn't really learn the connection between the behaviour and the consequence. Another thing for the human is to control the game, and take pauses or end it before it gets too rough.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It's his nature to be a big goof ball and I'm in the camp where I wouldn't want to try and fight it. Impulse control is a helpful thing and it should definitely be incorporated. But I'd do a lot of re-directing that craziness to constructive activities where he can have an outlet. So rather than doing too much calm things, personally, I'd get him into agility after he gets some foundation behaviors. I'd get him into fly ball or any number of activities where his exuberant personality can shine...rather than trying to subdue it. Just get it directed in a somewhat structured outlet. And it doesn't mean you have to let obnoxious behaviors thrive. But you can extinguish them and still let him be the big goof. This is why I'm so opposed to something like a shock collar.

Here's an article I love and posted on another thread. I think it will make a difference to you.

How to Train a "Crazy" Dog! | Karen Pryor Clicker Training

One of my Poodles is a high octane, energetic, crazy lunatic by nature. He's so busy, he doesn't know sometimes which way is up. But you know what? During the time I've had him (he's 18 months old now) he has become so much more deliberate but without being subdued. That's next to impossible to change a dog's nature by trying to "stop" him in his tracks. But while he's been learning a little obedience, some little tricks, some control in his gaiting (because he's a show dog) I wouldn't expect him to be a quiet, calm, subtler kind of dog. His personality is a big part of what makes him win in the ring. When we play tug, he plays with a vengeance. When we practice his recall, he comes fast and furious. Everything he does is with this great gusto. It's how my Doberman was and I love it. So, teach him some obedience, but make it fun, not serious ever. And let him be the goof ball. Just direct it a little bit and let his momentum do the rest.

Now Maurice, on the other hand, my other 18 month old Poodle is by nature more laid back. He is still energetic but he's just what I'd call subtler in most ways. He's easier in many ways but on the other hand, not as fast a learner, not _as_ "into" everything as Matisse is.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

"The "OUCH" method of teaching no mouthing/biting/roughhousing etc. is a form of negative punishment: if the thing to be discouraged happens, something nice is taken away. In this case, the fun and games stop. The human is supposedly hurt, thus the yelp. Depending on the dog, just a cry and a few moments of boredom might be enough (like it was for a very sweet soft Cocker I knew), and others need a bigger show to get that the yelp is not just a thing the human says when certain games are played. And by a big show I mean, you need to sound like someone stabbed your hand, then stop the game entirely (and take the toy away), and retire to "recover". The consequence needs to be really boring. If the game soon continues or there's fun to be had in some other way, the dog doesn't really learn the connection between the behaviour and the consequence. Another thing for the human is to control the game, and take pauses or end it before it gets too rough."

Good advise.


Use the "NO" command or whatever he has been trained to understand.
I use 'NO" with other key words (when their vocabulary is up to it) eg. "NO Bite" "NO Eat" Just plain "NO" can when learned in context stop all sorts of behavior. But it depends on the dog having already learned to "want to please"
Eric.


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