# Wycliffe inbreeding



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Fascinating.....thanks for posting this.

Viking Queen


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Very interesting article, thanks.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks peppersb. i admit i shuddered, though, at the "careful culling" comment. my understanding is that wycliffe breeding is considered to be part of the reason for toe cancer in black standards - and that currently breeders are very careful about the wycliffe coi when breeding dogs.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Here is another interesting site.........:nod:

Population Genetics of Poodles- The Institute of Canine Biology
Population Genetics of Poodles - The Institute of Canine Biology


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

patk said:


> thanks peppersb. i admit i shuddered, though, at the "careful culling" comment. my understanding is that wycliffe breeding is considered to be part of the reason for toe cancer in black standards - and that currently breeders are very careful about the wycliffe coi when breeding dogs.


I think that "culling" refers to neutering the dogs that have health issues or produced health issues. But maybe not. It is actually hard to find a white or black standard poodle from show lines that doesn't have a high % Wycliffe. My Cammie is over 50% Wycliffe (very typical of well-bred nice looking standard poodles) but she has a very low COI. The low COI indicates that there is not much inbreeding in her pedigree for the last 10 or 12 generations. But most black/white/cream standard poodles today are part of what they call the Wycliffe bottleneck, meaning they are very heavily influenced by all of that inbreeding in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Some breeders are now specifically looking for low Wycliffe dogs, but I'm not sure that most breeders are focused on that. There are so many factors to consider.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

thanks, molly, for linking to that. it would be interesting to follow. not going to make some breeders, happy, either, i guess. sad to hear that minis and toys have as much relation to standards as some other breed would.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> thanks, molly, for linking to that. it would be interesting to follow. not going to make some breeders, happy, either, i guess. sad to hear that minis and toys have as much relation to standards as some other breed would.



Which is why it is so wrong when breeders cross minis with standards and call them moynen (sp?)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think I remember reading somewhere in that article in connection to the term, "culling" or following that term... that she got the pups neutered that weren't going to cut it for her breeding program. I hope so. 

It was _very_ interesting. 

Molly...thank you too. I have yet to read that one.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Which is why it is so wrong when breeders cross minis with standards and call them moynen (sp?)


Hey, if miniatures are genetically different than standards, then breeding them would produce the best kind of doodle, assuming of course the breeding was done carefully. Certainly it would increase genetic diversity and ain't that a good thing?

Just playing devil's advocate here.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

MiniPoo said:


> Hey, if miniatures are genetically different than standards, then breeding them would produce the best kind of doodle, assuming of course the breeding was done carefully. Certainly it would increase genetic diversity and ain't that a good thing?


Some scientists have suggested standard-mini crosses as a way to bring new diversity into the standard gene pool. I would personally love to see more poodles in the 25 to 40 pound range, and I would love to see some responsible breeders focus on this. I think a lot of pet owners really love that size. 

The problems with breeding minis to standards are: (1) you don't always get a well-proportioned dog when you breed two dogs that are very different in size. There are plenty of photos of funny looking spoo x mini crosses on the internet -- often with short mini legs and bigger standard bodies. (2) Moyen (or klein or medium) is actually a size that is recognized by the FCI and has been bred for a long time in Europe and elsewhere. A spoo x mini cross is not the same thing. (The FCI or Fédération Cynologique Internationale is an international federation of kennel clubs based in Belgium with 86 member countries.) (3) Unfortunately, it seems (from my observation) that the breeders that are trying to produce a medium sized poodle in the US are not the greatest (too many dogs, breeding bitches too early and too often, limited health testing, etc.).


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Great article, thanks for the link. Very interesting that she saw links between bloat, teeth staining (?!), and vaccinations.

I've heard of the Wycliffe influence being a matter of concern to breeders. My first Spoo was 56% (sired by one of *the* hotshot sires of the time), my second Spoo 55% (a half-brother to my first spoo, though six years older and from different breeders--yeah, that was one popular sire!) and even Sugarfoot (a parti spoo with an AKC champion grandparent on the paternal side) is 44% in the "Wycliffe coefficient" category. 

Very interesting reading!

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

AVery interesting article. What I think Jean Lyle did not understand was the overall "depression" effect to the immune system that generations such extreme inbreeding eventually had. While she may have culled lines that actively expressed issues, which eliminated those issues, the general effect to the immune system itself was eventually detrimental, which likely explains the bloat, seizures, stained teeth, vaccine reactions, etc. 

Wycliffe is by many known as the best example of pure inbred line. In many ways, having a pure line of closely bred dogs is not a bad thing. Some would argue that having several distinct tightly bred lines that are not bred together is actually one way to preserve genetic diversity by preserving specific DLA haplotypes. 

While inbreeding within one distinct line in an of itself is not necessarily damaging to an entire population, the real Wycliffe problem was that ***everyone*** bred to these dogs, which essentially means that the modern poodle breed now has a genetic bottleneck with those 5 foundation dogs used to start the Wycliffe line. 

Furthermore, it seems that what actually promotes a healthy immune system is DLA heterozygosity. This is why some high Wycliffe dogs live long, healthy lives and some low Wycliffe dogs are plagued with autoimmune disease.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Here is the link to the new diversity testing which tells is the DLA haplotypes of the dogs tested. https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GeneticDiversityInStandardPoodles.php 
Hopefully in the not too distant future breeders will be using this tool to help choose mates, along with all the other tools we have at our disposal. I am attaching the reports of some of our dogs so you can see how varied the reports are:

http://www.redstandardpoodles.net/uploads/CH_Winnow_Happy_Go_Lucky__Quincy__-_DR101000.pdf

http://www.redstandardpoodles.net/uploads/Silken_Arreau_Where_s_the_Beef__Angus__-NCD26811.jpg

http://www.redstandardpoodles.net/u...at_Arreau_Very-Merry__Jameson__-_NCD26162.pdf


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks Cheri! I had Sam tested too. He has an IR of .07 which is not bad. For an explanation of what all of this means and an excellent presentation on diversity see the following page:

Genetic Diversity Test for Standard Poodles - Poodles de Grenier


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