# Sexually excited at 14 weeks?



## Teddy mommy (Jan 26, 2014)

Hey all poodle parents!! This is my second post so I'm not sure if this is where it belongs but hope you fellows can help me. 
So I got my tpoo (teddy) almost a month ago when he's 11 weeks old. And about 2 weeks ago I realize that he tried to hump one leg but I usually stop him or distract him but he would do it to his toy. I told my vet and he said he's just trying to show dominance and nothing sexual; I'll remove his toy when I see him does it. But two nights ago and tonight I gave him the toy and I saw him humping it and when I flip him over I see that he's a little excited sexually, but tonight i see his penis bright red and excited ... I thought they are not going to get excited sexually so young!! I talked to my vet that I want to neuter him when he's 4 months but the vet told me to hold off until he's 5-6 month.. And now seeing him so sexually excited, I'm not sure if I should do it earlier. 
Any suggestions? Thanks in advance !


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Lol. It wont chg even aftr neutering him. I have two neutered boys, they would hump each other and Edison would also hump his stuffed lamb doll. 

I wont worry too much abt it. He is young so let him find himself. Marking in the house would be much nastier than humping.

My sister in law's yorkie, spayed female, 6 yrs old loves to hump her oversize shrek doll. We cheer her up when she does it. Go get him lucy, we cheered. Lol.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Believe your vet when he tells you it is NOT sexual! Little poodle boys bring out their 'lipstick' all the time when they get excited and happy and it has nothing to do with sex! LOL! Just keep distracting him when he humps, and as he gets older he will learn it is not acceptable behavior.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

but don't believe your vet when he says it's dominance, either. that's assuming too much at this age. puppies hump each other all the time as part of play, as do adult dogs, and it seems that so far people don't know for sure where the lines between sexuality, dominance and play are drawn, or can be drawn, when it comes to dogs. i would guess in terms of interactions with humans, you do want to teach the dog not to hump people's legs, little kids, etc., just so your dog is not considered a menace or nuisance in "polite" society.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Both my boys start humping when they get really excited. When Vegas and Vienna (standards) are playing, Vegas will sometimes get really excited and hump Vienna, and when the standards are playing and Cairo can't get a word in, he'll get excited and start humping Vienna's leg. Vegas has even grinded in the air before.

I don't think it's in a sexual way. Both my boys are neutered.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

Hmm. I had the same problem with my grl. Dreamer humped my legs until she was about 25 week old. I think in the case it was a dominance thing becuase I coddled her, but I trained her not to. Sometimes I would put her in a crate while I ad my agility class, then when I took her out he ould hump my leg. My agility instructor was always saying "Shes humping your legs again!" I think what Dreamer was trying to say to me was "Dont you leave me again and play with Nava!"


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

MollyMuiMa said:


> bring out their 'lipstick'


"lipstick" :rofl: ......

"lipstick" :rofl:


I've never heard it termed that way, but it's an accurate description. Thanks for making me laugh!!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree with what the others have said...and as for neutering, please search the forum as it has been discussed at length, but many here believe it is MUCH better to wait at least a year to neuter. 

Also, when you say flip him over, make sure to not try to do this as a way to show dominance to your puppy. Unless someone is VERY well educated on dog behavior, it is something that can backfire big time. 

I really think your puppy is just getting a bit over excited in play and it is nothing to worry about....enjoy him, they grow up so fast!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

You might find this worth a read.
The Down & Dirty on Humping: Sex, Status, and Beyond | Dog Star Daily

This too might be helpful to you.:clover:
http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/79553-when-desex-how.html#post922609


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## Teddy mommy (Jan 26, 2014)

MollyMuiMa said:


> Believe your vet when he tells you it is NOT sexual! Little poodle boys bring out their 'lipstick' all the time when they get excited and happy and it has nothing to do with sex! LOL! Just keep distracting him when he humps, and as he gets older he will learn it is not acceptable behavior.



Thank you so much.. And "lipstick" is such a cute way to describe him ? 


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## Teddy mommy (Jan 26, 2014)

Thank you so much everybody. Makes me feel a whole lot better that he's not doing it for the sexual reason. This is my first male puppy so I have a lot of uncertain things that need to know! And right now there are a lot of baby stage stuff that he does and annoys me to the max! And I think I still want to neuter him before he hits the puberty stage where he'll do all the marking in my house. 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> I agree with what the others have said...and as for neutering, please search the forum as it has been discussed at length, but many here believe it is MUCH better to wait at least a year to neuter.
> 
> Also, when you say flip him over, make sure to not try to do this as a way to show dominance to your puppy. *Unless someone is VERY well educated on dog behavior, it is something that can backfire big time. *
> 
> I really think your puppy is just getting a bit over excited in play and it is nothing to worry about....enjoy him, they grow up so fast!



someone who is very educated in behavior wouldn't do that at all. 

Humping won't stop with neutering. My two Chihuahuas hump each other occasionally. One's a boy and one's a girl. They both do it. It is though to be done for many reasons, one of which is indeed masturbating. lol. They do it in play and well...you can read Chagall's article. Mine play a game where they take turns. I don't bother them much when they're just being dogs. I would interrupt them if they did it on a human...not punishing, but re directing them to some other activity. It is not a sign of dominance because in behavior, dominance refers to gaining priority access to an item that is wanted by both and doing so by aggressive means. So, irrelevant.

I would definitely wait to neuter until _fully_ developed physically if you're going to neuter. (health reasons)


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## Teddy mommy (Jan 26, 2014)

When I put the two toys away.. He doesn't hump other things anymore.. And he stopped trying to hump me.. Which is a good thing. And i really didn't know I shouldn't flip him over, which thank you for letting me know! 

And as for a tpoo, he's about 3.7lbs now, when would he be fully grown?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

It's been said on here by a very knowledgeable toy poodle person that if you take the weight of a toy poodle at 16 weeks and double it and then add 1/2 to 1 pound you will get the approximate adult weight. So I'm guessing your pup will max out at around 8 pounds.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Teddy mommy said:


> ... And i really didn't know I shouldn't flip him over, which thank you for letting me know!


actually, if i recall correctly, the volhard puppy test does involve putting a puppy on its back and holding it there gently for about 30 seconds. it's supposed to be partly a dominance/submissive temperament test and also a test for how a pup handles stress.

some dogs enjoy this as part of play and affection - especially if they like having their bellies rubbed. if you use it as a threat, it's likely the dog will recognize it as such.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

patk said:


> actually, if i recall correctly, the volhard puppy test does involve putting a puppy on its back and holding it there gently for about 30 seconds. it's supposed to be partly a dominance/submissive temperament test and also a test for how a pup handles stress.
> 
> some dogs enjoy this as part of play and affection - especially if they like having their bellies rubbed. if you use it as a threat, it's likely the dog will recognize it as such.



I agree, putting the puppy on his back gently in play is great! Misha LOVES to be on her back and associates it with good things! I have her flipped over all the time! lol


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Absolutely...flipping a dog over in play or affection, tummy rubs is one thing. Flipping them over forcefully with anger, in a domineering way to show 'em who's boss is another altogether. As far as that testing, I don't think it says anything about dominance. It might show a puppy that is more compliant or trusting. Anyhow when talking about alpha rolls, that is not what playing, wrestling, affection, tummy rubs are.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> A As far as that testing, I don't think it says anything about dominance.




the volhards seem to think it does per this excerpt (a complete copy of this is available on line, and i've removed sample scoring numbers to cut down on confusion): 

Developed by Jack and Wendy Volhard © Wendy Volhard 2003 1/3
© Wendy Volhard 2003
As long as the material used is correctly credited with the authors' name and publication the text comes from
and a link to www.volhard.com, Jack and Wendy Volhard encourage people to use their material.
Updated: January 10, 2003 – For updates and contact info: www.Volhard.com
PUPPY APTITUDE TEST
This score sheet has been prepared for the convenience of those who have
Dog Training For Dummies by Jack & Wendy Volhard (IDG Books, 2001),
which contains the information necessary for accurate results
and the correct interpretation of the scores.
© Wendy Volhard 2003
Puppy (color, sex) ________________ litter ______________________ date ____________
TEST PURPOSE SCORE #

SOCIAL ATTRACTION
Place puppy in test area about four feet from the
tester. Tester kneels, leans backwards and coaxes
the pup to her/him by clapping hands gently.
Degree of social
attraction to people,
confidence, or
dependence.
Pack Drive.
Didn't come at all. 
Followed readily, tail
up, got underfoot, bit
at feet.
Followed readily, tail
up, got underfoot.
Followed readily, tail
up
Followed readily, tail
down.
Followed hesitantly,
tail down.

FOLLOWING
The tester stands up and slowly walks away
encouraging the puppy to follow. Make sure the pup
sees you walk away. Coax puppy to follow by talking
to it and attracting its attention.
Willingness to follow a
person.
Pack Drive.
Did not follow or went
away.
Struggled fiercely,
flailed, bit.
Struggled fiercely,
flailed.
Settled, struggled,
settled with some eye
contact.

Struggled then settled. 
No struggle, no eye
contact.

RESTRAINT
The tester crouches down and gently rolls the pup on
its back and holds it down with light pressure with
one hand for 30 seconds.
_Degree of dominance or
submissive tendency,
and ease of handling in
difficult situations._
Fight or Flight Drive.
No struggle, straining
to avoid eye contact.
Jumped, pawed, bit,
growled.
Jumped, pawed.
Cuddled up to tester
and tried to lick face.
Squirmed, licked at
hands.
Rolled over, licked at
hands.

SOCIAL DOMINANCE
Puppy sits or stands on crouching tester's left side
and tester gently strokes it from the head to back.
Continue stroking until a recognizable behavior is
established.
Degree of acceptance of
social dominance by a
person.
Pack Drive.
Went away and stayed
away.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't think that a puppy who squirms and struggles when it's put on it's back is _necessarily_ an indication that he will be any particular way when he is older. I've had and seen puppies that were holy terrors that way when put on their backs as babies but weren't all that independent or pushy when older...temperament wise.

Mischief....I thought you meant alpha rolling being done by experts, not the type of putting on the back done by those tests or in play like we're talking about.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mine are about 8.5 months old and they're not marking in the house. It's just the same as regular potty training. Prevent indoor peeing and reward outdoor. Lots of people have intact dogs that don't mark their furniture. If you research the health reasons why to wait, you'll be amazed.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well i happen to agree with you. but the volhards are claiming science is on their side. of course, how old the science is is another story. nonetheless, that's what's out there for now and a lot of people, including good breeders, use it.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think most experts see much use in "alpha rolling" anymore. The Monks of New Skete who raise GSDs and train many dogs have backed away from it. In wild canids, there is no such thing as an alpha roll. The subordinate offers a belly up to appease. The dominant dog doesn't wrestle them into a roll. 

Back to the original point puppies hump out of excitement in broad terms not particularly about sex. Females will do it as much as males. Humping by a puppy to a person is not about dominance.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

If u dont like him humping and u corrected by firm no, my husband did this to discourage charlie from humping edison. Correction didnt work, however, when I cheered, they lost interest in humping. Not sure what it means but I thought I share it with u.

I have been trying to catch them in the act so I can at least have a video of them doing this silly play things but they havent done it for so long. So maybe perhaps the firm-no correction works.

My mother in law chihuahua loves to hump my heel. I yelled no to him. He hasnt done it again.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Joelly said:


> If u dont like him humping and u corrected by firm no, my husband did this to discourage charlie from humping edison. Correction didnt work, however, when I cheered, they lost interest in humping.


this is hilarious! i wonder what quadrant of operant conditioning that falls into. doesn't seem to fit in with classical conditioning, either. i think you need to report this to the american college of veterinary behaviorists!


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

patk said:


> this is hilarious! i wonder what quadrant of operant conditioning that falls into. doesn't seem to fit in with classical conditioning, either. i think you need to report this to the american college of veterinary behaviorists!


Lol. I have lots to say to them too. Some of Charlie's behavior indicate he is more of a boy than a dog. So glad he can't talk. :afraid:


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

My girls are a year old and they hump each other all the time. 


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I always find conversations on this topic funny.....everyone has their "take" on it. Anyone who followed my journey with Sunny since I got him in September 2011, will know that he was 3 1/2 when I was lucky enough for his breeder to rehome him with me. He was part of her foundation line, and she initially showed him in conformation until he had an accident and cut his back leg and the coat grew in dark apricot -- so she couldn't show him until it grew out. As life had it, she never was able to get back to showing him so she bred him a few times since he is very close to the original sire of her line. When I lost my last poodle in 2011, I was looking for an adult mini, and she agreed to rehome him with me (didn't realize he was was up in Canada and I am in Chicago, tho). He is a very reserved temperament, is quiet, not overly interested in other dogs (unless they are little poodles) and is pretty aloof. The most aggressive dog in the neighborhood calms when he sees Sunny since Sunny diffuses it and just pays no attention - he reads other dogs very well. Totally 100% focused on me on walks, perfect heel, etc., UNTIL my neighbor came home with a rescue bichon/poodle mix little boy. Let me tell you.....it's so odd.....Sunny who is uninterested in 99% of dogs immediately ran up, tail high wagging crazily and mounted him!!!!! I was in such shock!!! Senti (the rescue) just stood there and ignored him. Sunny was actually trying to mount him (not so much hump) and then even was trying to bite his neck -- same as when he was breeding right? I told him "NO" and he stopped, but every time we see Senti it is the same thing..........could this be a "play" gesture? To me, it looks like something about the dog instinctually gets him ready to breed......am I nuts? Would love anyone's take on this one!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

liljaker said:


> I always find conversations on this topic funny.....everyone has their "take" on it. Anyone who followed my journey with Sunny since I got him in September 2011, will know that he was 3 1/2 when I was lucky enough for his breeder to rehome him with me. He was part of her foundation line, and she initially showed him in conformation until he had an accident and cut his back leg and the coat grew in dark apricot -- so she couldn't show him until it grew out. As life had it, she never was able to get back to showing him so she bred him a few times since he is very close to the original sire of her line. When I lost my last poodle in 2011, I was looking for an adult mini, and she agreed to rehome him with me (didn't realize he was was up in Canada and I am in Chicago, tho). He is a very reserved temperament, is quiet, not overly interested in other dogs (unless they are little poodles) and is pretty aloof. The most aggressive dog in the neighborhood calms when he sees Sunny since Sunny diffuses it and just pays no attention - he reads other dogs very well. Totally 100% focused on me on walks, perfect heel, etc., UNTIL my neighbor came home with a rescue bichon/poodle mix little boy. Let me tell you.....it's so odd.....Sunny who is uninterested in 99% of dogs immediately ran up, tail high wagging crazily and mounted him!!!!! I was in such shock!!! Senti (the rescue) just stood there and ignored him. Sunny was actually trying to mount him (not so much hump) and then even was trying to bite his neck -- same as when he was breeding right? I told him "NO" and he stopped, but every time we see Senti it is the same thing..........*could this be a "play" gesture? To me, it looks like something about the dog instinctually gets him ready to breed*......am I nuts? Would love anyone's take on this one!


I think it could be both. I think dogs, being neotenic versions of wolves do things instinctively as wolf puppies might do and they incorporate some of the predatory motor patterns such as orient, stalk, chase, bite into their play. And I think mounting, although used when mating is also incorporated into play with domestic dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

As far as the Volhard testing goes, I don't think it's all useless...didn't mean for anyone to infer that from my mentioning that part about holding them on their backs not necessarily indicating that they'll be a certain way when older. I do think that some of the tests are a good indication of temperament that will tend to stay with them. Ie: dropping a stainless steel bowl on the cement, startling a puppy. If the puppy shrinks away and stays away, I'd be worried. If the puppy backs up for a moment, then goes to investigate, I'd find that normal. If the puppy doesn't shrink back at all and runs headlong to investigate, I'd not like that because I think a dog should use a degree of assessment before checking something out.

The test where the puppy follows the human around or not...I'd want to see a puppy that is interested in humans, not one that goes off and does his own thing and pays no attention to the human. 

I think some of these tests are an indication of temperament and that stays with a dog forever. I just don't know about that one where they're forced to be on their backs. My own puppies varied in their response to that one. They might hate it one minute and be okay with it another time depending on a lot of things, So, that particular one...not so sure about.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't know why....yet it is somehow cute that he just picks this one dog! lol

I found, and this is just a IMHO, when grooming dogs, that the bichons were our most....amorous clients. Maybe Sunny knows that! lol


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> I don't know why....yet it is somehow cute that he just picks this one dog! lol
> 
> I found, and this is just a IMHO, when grooming dogs, that the bichons were our most....amorous clients. Maybe Sunny knows that! lol



That's interesting and too funny.


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