# Vaccinations, puppy class and socialization



## piin (Apr 28, 2016)

Hi everybody,

This is my first post outside the "members intro" :act-up:
I have followed Poodleforum for a long time, and now I'm finally getting my own toy poodle in mid-May (no name, so he will be called 'Pup' in this post).

My breeder has bred toy poodles for more than 20 years, and she has been guiding me as this is my first pup... ever 

She says that she doesn't recommend vaccinating Pup before he is 12 weeks old, and then she recommends that I don't vaccinate him ever again (other than rabies if I have to travel with him). No boosters. Further, he is not vaccinated when I pick him up (8 weeks old). 
I've read up on the whole "holistic"/no-over-vaccination research and it makes sense to me.

Now, to my dilemma, I signed Pup and me up for puppy class, starting when he is almost 9 weeks because I read that 'the earlier the better'. However, I just received some introductory information from the puppy class and the information states that the puppy has to be vaccinated to attend the class.

So... What do I do now? What do you guys recommend? 

I want to socialize Pup as early as possible and follow my breeder's (and many experts') advice, but I also want to keep Pup and other dogs safe.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Wow, I am surprised that a breeder so (overly) cautious about vaccines, would place a Toy puppy so young. Normally reputable toy poodle breeders keep them until at least 12 weeks. 
Do you have a good vet picked out? I am fairly certain that they will disagree with your breeder's protocol. 
While it is true that the earlier vaccines are not expected to last a lifetime, and are only given to protect the puppy until they have developed the ability for a full immune response, and theoretically if you were able to protect the puppy from all exposure, they would only need the last vaccine, 12 weeks is still considered too early for them to have that last vaccine, so your vet will surely insist upon them having one more, and then another after that when he is a year old.
Also realize that since other puppies are the very most likely source of contagion since their vaccines may or may not have been effective before 14-16 weeks old, and they may be in fact incubating a disease, that is the last place on earth that you want to bring your unvaccinated puppy! Even with our puppies having been vaccinated, many of us hesitate to have our puppies who are under 16 weeks around other pups because of the possibility that they might not have full immunity, and your puppy is guaranteed not to have any immunity!
You are correct that it is important for your puppy to have the valuable social experiences with other puppies and dogs at that age, but that should be happening at a reputable breeders home, not at a public place with other pups whose origin and health issues are unknown!
I currently have my 6th and 7th Toy Poodles, and each one of them has been between 12-16 weeks old when they came home to me, and were on a normal vaccine schedule so I did not face the dilemma that you have!


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

piin said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> This is my first post outside the "members intro" :act-up:
> I have followed Poodleforum for a long time, and now I'm finally getting my own toy poodle in mid-May (no name, so he will be called 'Pup' in this post).
> ...



I would follow vet's advice on the vaccines. One vaccine is not enough to make their immune system strong enough to fight those nasty dog viruses, it requires 3-4 injections to build their antibodies to that specific ailment. 

I would NOT go to puppy class or anywhere with the puppy until the first 3-4 injections are finished. My husband just spoke to someone that had a 8 week old puppy get parvo and it's not pretty. It's heartbreaking . At 8 weeks as soon as you get him, see the vet for a health checkup and his first puppy shots.

If you're concerned with over-vaccination, get titres instead. These blood tests will show whether your puppy has enough vaccine to prevent the diseases. There's distemper as well that you really want your dog vaccinated against.

All the puppy places I have read their ads require a dog that's had his vaccinations.


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## piin (Apr 28, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Wow, I am surprised that a breeder so (overly) cautious about vaccines, would place a Toy puppy so young. Normally reputable toy poodle breeders keep them until at least 12 weeks.
> Do you have a good vet picked out? I am fairly certain that they will disagree with your breeder's protocol.
> While it is true that the earlier vaccines are not expected to last a lifetime, and are only given to protect the puppy until they have developed the ability for a full immune response, and theoretically if you were able to protect the puppy from all exposure, they would only need the last vaccine, 12 weeks is still considered too early for them to have that last vaccine, so your vet will surely insist upon them having one more, and then another after that when he is a year old.
> Also realize that since other puppies are the very most likely source of contagion since their vaccines may or may not have been effective before 14-16 weeks old, and they may be in fact incubating a disease, that is the last place on earth that you want to bring your unvaccinated puppy! Even with our puppies having been vaccinated, many of us hesitate to have our puppies who are under 16 weeks around other pups because of the possibility that they might not have full immunity, and your puppy is guaranteed not to have any immunity!
> ...



It seems that placing puppies at 8 weeks of age is the norm here in Scandinavia. That being said, I'm still learning about dogs and toy poodles, so I don't know the best time. I researched the breeder before deciding on her, and she seems to be reputable and one of the best. Not over-breeding, the dogs are inside with the family, being socialized the best way, only few litters etc. 
It looks like most breeders here vaccinate their dogs once before it leaves home (at 8 weeks), and then you have to do it again at 12 weeks and so on. The 'problem' here is that mine doesn't. And that she believes that one vaccination at 12 weeks will do it. Since she has bred toy poodles for such a long time and want the best for her dogs, I don't want to discard her claims right away. Personally, I try to do everything 'natural' I can to get well if I get sick (I don't like to medicate myself, and I think most doctors are over-medicating), but again, that's for me, a human being, and I don't have any experience in how it is for a dog.

I don't have a vet picked out yet. I'm currently looking for one. Right now I'm trying to research whether to get a 'conventional' or 'holistic' vet. It seems that there are two different approaches and I want to pick the best one.

For the vaccinations, I'm very confused. I've been trying to read up on it and, again, there seems to be different approaches/beliefs: One is the conventional approach and the other is the holistic. 

Conventional goes something like this: Vaccinate your puppy at 6-8 weeks, again at 12 weeks and again at around 16 weeks. Then give boosters every year.

Holistic: According to research, we over-vaccinate our dogs. Puppies have maternal antibodies that protect it fully until the age of 10 to 16 weeks. Vaccination before 12 weeks of age may neutralize the maternal immunity, leaving your pet more vulnerable. I have confirmed this by running antibody tests on these puppies. Give the minimal of vaccinations, they often cover the pup's entire life. (A Holistic Approach to Vaccination for Dogs | Spirituality & Health Magazine + Dog Vaccination Schedule : Holistic vs. Conventional Approach + What's So Risky About Puppy Shots?)

So right now I'm super confused. I just want to do what's best for Pup.


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## piin (Apr 28, 2016)

seminolewind said:


> I would follow vet's advice on the vaccines. One vaccine is not enough to make their immune system strong enough to fight those nasty dog viruses, it requires 3-4 injections to build their antibodies to that specific ailment.
> 
> I would NOT go to puppy class or anywhere with the puppy until the first 3-4 injections are finished. My husband just spoke to someone that had a 8 week old puppy get parvo and it's not pretty. It's heartbreaking . At 8 weeks as soon as you get him, see the vet for a health checkup and his first puppy shots.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response. I'm going to pick a vet asap and ask him/her for advice. The thing now (as mentioned in my reply above to Tiny Poodle as well) is whether to go for a 'conventional' or 'holistic' vet. It seems that they might have different opinions on vaccinations.

From what I just read on titres, it looks like that might be a very good idea!

This place says that if your dog is under 6 months old it will still have anti-bodies from its mother, so vaccinations are not required, but they are recommended.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Hi Piin, it's worth doing an online lookup of Dr. Dodds' vaccination protocol to get a read there. Many veterinarians still believe in over-vaccinating tremendously, at least here in the United States.

I've a friend in dogs (not Poodles) in Canada, and she has been known to vaccinate once and done, and that's just the protocol in her area and her belief system. And it works plus she shows on both sides of the border. You may not have parvo in your area--you'd need to check with local veterinarians.

Agree here about early socialization, and no way on earth would I ever wait until four months to take a puppy class. Maybe contact several local veterinarians to try and get an idea what is the suggested protocol in your country and specific area. And you might check with your breeder for vets to whom she could refer you to help establish proper immunity for your area. Ask for your breeder's advice on the classes, too maybe.

You might be able to go watch while holding your puppy for a few sessions before you get the vaccination. Even a puppy watching from a shoulder bag type of carrier can get some socialization just by observing through it or with the head poked out (likely easier to keep the pup off the ground by using a carrier than trying to hold on to a squirming madman eager to meet everyone around him .)


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Definitely six weeks is WAY to young to begin vaccinations. If you do some searching here in the health forum, you'll find links associated with names like Drs. Dodds and Schultz. Here is one: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Virus and Vaccine Related Articles . Dr. Ronald Schultz is with the University of Wisconsin Veterinary school and you'll find links to his writing at Dr. Dodds' site linked above.

Here's one from Dr. Dodds I haven't read yet, but the very title makes it of interest to you quite possibly: Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Virus and Vaccine Related Articles . <-- vaccines from a global perspective.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Many of us here believe in and follow Dr. Dodds vaccine protocol!


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

My vet allowed me to walk my pup on hard surfaces before being fully vaccinated, just no grass. That allowed meeting people and experiencing different sounds . . trucks, trains, etc. and sights; he had one shot by puppy class and that was the norm for that class. Poor socialization is considered a bigger risk than parvo by the ASPCA.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

piin said:


> Thank you for your response. I'm going to pick a vet asap and ask him/her for advice. The thing now (as mentioned in my reply above to Tiny Poodle as well) is whether to go for a 'conventional' or 'holistic' vet. It seems that they might have different opinions on vaccinations.
> 
> From what I just read on titres, it looks like that might be a very good idea!
> 
> This place says that if your dog is under 6 months old it will still have anti-bodies from its mother, so vaccinations are not required, but they are recommended.


My chickens have all been exposed to a virus that causes cancer. I've lost many of them. I vaccinate them now which prevents the cancer but they carry it and can still spread it. I'll tell you I immersed myself in vaccines and how they work.

Natural resistance would be if a dog comes in contact with the virus and the antibodies build and protect the dog from the virus. . But most times an exposure like that will make the dog sick and maybe die because it's too late to build enough antibodies.

The next best thing is to get a dog to build antibodies by coming in contact with the virus that's been altered in some way. That's a vaccine. A vaccine is not a medicine. It's a safe exposure of the virus that builds the antibodies in numbers so that when the real thing comes along, the protection is already there because of a safe exposure-the vaccine. Antibodies are like an army. Now, does one want to build the army before the enemy shows up, or as the enemy shows up.

Some vaccines can't build the number of antibodies needed with one vaccine/exposure. So a few boosters are needed as well as a possible vaccine yearly. You can use a titre for this, and find out if there are enough antibodies made that will protect the dog. Puppies are the most vulnerable because they don't even have a complete set of "general use" antibodies. In fact, sometimes antibodies passed to puppy from the mom can inactivate the vaccine. The other problem is that mom's antibodies passed to puppy may not be a large enough number to save a dog. Some viruses actually move in to the antibody factory and spit out virus instead of antibodies (Herpes). 

I would not let anyone talk me out of vaccines. It truly is a natural exposure, not a medicine. It's just the virus is altered so it can't make the dog sick. Titres are a very good thing for people who are uncomfortable with vaccines. But even an 8-10 week puppy needs one or the other to be safe. 

Maybe people know this stuff already. I'll just repeat it anyway. :act-up:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would go with the version of the international protocol most common in the UK, which can be summed up as:
Core vaccines at 8-9 weeks, and again at 10-11 weeks, with a dose at 12 months just in case the maternal antibodies were still active at the time of the second vaccination. Or you can titer at 12 months. Use 3-year vaccines. Thereafter either vaccinate or titer every three years. You won't need rabies unless you plan on travelling, presumably. Pups can be in safe environments like a well run puppy class after the first vaccination. They are assumed to be covered for more dangerous environments around possibly unvaccinated dogs two weeks after the second vaccination.

I don't know whether the same protocol is accepted in your part of Scandinavia, but I am sure it is similar. Your vet should advise you based upon the known risks in your area. You may need to specifically ask for 3-year vaccines and titers - many vets still vaccinate annually as a way of ensuring people bring their dogs in for check ups. While there is a risk involved in vaccination, it is tiny compared to the risk from the diseases you are vaccinating against, and the evidence tends to be anecdotal rather than solidly based. Over vaccination is of no benefit and may be harmful, so it is wise to avoid it; under vaccination has a high chance of being very harmful, so I would see it is the higher risk. I do know of at least one breeder who, having lost a pup to what appeared to be a vaccine reaction, refuses to ever have any of their pups vaccinated ever again, and relies on herd immunity, but that seems both dangerous and antisocial to me...


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

piin said:


> Hi everybody,
> 
> This is my first post outside the "members intro" :act-up:
> I have followed Poodleforum for a long time, and now I'm finally getting my own toy poodle in mid-May (no name, so he will be called 'Pup' in this post).
> ...



First of all, congratulations on your getting a Poodle puppy! You will have years of love and enjoyment with your baby.

Since you said that placing pups at 8 weeks is of the norm where you are, I'm sure everything will be okay, but you will need for sure to start his vaccinations right away. 8 to 9 weeks, then around 12 weeks, and lastly at around 16 weeks. But there is a lot of debate on that.

And please don't take Pup to any type of classes until he had all of his vaccinations. For his health's sake, it's best to wait.

Good luck, and I can't wait to see what he looks like!


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## piin (Apr 28, 2016)

Thanks to everybody for your good answers! 

I found a holistic vet in my area who got very good reviews, so I'll consult with her asap and follow her guidelines. With all of your good help and knowledge, I'm able to ask her the right questions and notice if there's something that's not right in her recommendations.
Further, I'll be reading up on Dr. Dodds' vaccination research and other new research to fully understand it. It seems like there are different norms from country to country and even from owner to owner.

Can't wait to share some pictures of Pup with you! And I'm sure I'll have a bunch of questions before that that I need your help with


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

seminolewind's explanation of the way vaccines work is spot on. If she hadn't already explained it so well that was what I was going to say.

One dose of most vaccines is not going to protect your pup. You do need one dose of core vaccines when your pup comes home and another a few weeks later. If your puppy class starts at least a week after the first vaccine dose you should be fine taking your pup then. At my obedience club we take puppies as young as 8 weeks for puppy only classes (nobody starts in puppy if they are over 18 weeks old). We've never had anybody get sick.


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