# Is this adolescence or something else?



## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

Winnie is almost 5 months old and is starting to stare a me blankly on certain commands that I know she knows very well. For instance if I ask her to go on her bed she normally does it no problem but sometimes lately I just get a blank stare. She totally ignores what I am saying. In steps my husband with his firm deep voice and tells her to get on her bed and she goes immediately!!! Is this part of adolescent behaviour? When I go back to training she is great but when the mood takes her she won't do anything unless my husband steps in.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

She is testing you, probably an adolescence thing but it will not improve unless you take corrective messures. Dogs are very intuitive and feel us. She knows you don’t totally mean it if she can get away with it, she will. They’re like kids at that age...


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

Dechi said:


> She is testing you, probably an adolescence thing but it will not improve unless you take corrective messures. Dogs are very intuitive and feel us. She knows you don’t totally mean it if she can get away with it, she will. They’re like kids at that age...


What should I do?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

you should be firm and direct, keep the words to a minimum


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Have you read Ian Dunbar's Before & After Getting Your Puppy? He's got lots of great tips on navigating adolescence.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

And just so you know you're not alone: Poodle Adolescence - Support Group


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> And just so you know you're not alone: Poodle Adolescence - Support Group


Thanks for this. Haha, reflections in dark windows...........I thought it was just Winnie


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

WinnieThePoodle said:


> What should I do?


Look at your husband’s posture, body language and tone when he talks to your dog. See the difference between his and yours and try to imitate him at first, but then after a while you will find your own style. Your energy is not firm enough maybe, or you use a high pitched tone, etc.

You had good suggestions that you can try also.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes to all of the above suggestions.

Most of the time my boys do as I ask but there are some times, well, not so much. I've borrowed a technique from a couple of PF members which almost always gets the desired behavior.

me: Remo, sit (normal voice)
Remo: Just a minute mom, I need to steal Neo's toy.
me: What did I say? (deeper tone, slightly more emphatic)
Remo: (plants fuzzy butt)

It's not that he necessarily understands the words, but he gets the tone


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

It's not that he necessarily understands the words, but he gets the tone 

Yes I tried the tone thing earlier this morning. She wasn't settling so I asked her to go lie on her bed. She went but every few minutes would crawl off thinking I couldn't see her so had to keep putting her back. I changed my tone to a more serious one so she knew I was not accepting what she was doing. She went back to her bed but with that look to let me know she would do it but was not happy about it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Ah - That Voice! Needed rather frequently with Sophy, who is a great one for procrastinating. She reminds me sometimes of my sister, who always remembers a phone call she has to make, or a bit of wiring to fix, or something else delaying, just as everyone else is ready to leave the house. Sophy inevitably feels an urgent need to pee a long way off just as I ask her to get into the car, or spots a neighbour she hasn't seen for _ages, _or just has to say good bye to the cats...

I remember the "I-really-mean-it" voice from my childhood - it worked on me too!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I think management is really important at that age. Don't give her a chance to make mistakes. 

We used Peggy's indoor exercise pen A LOT during early adolescence, and we always made it a very nice place for her.

If Winnie has a tendency to drift away from her bed, tether her and make sure she has a really yummy, safe chew. Or reward heavily at first (treat party!!) and then slowly taper off.

By making it rewarding for her to do what you want her to do, you are clearly communicating your expectations: "Laying in your bed is very good for poodles! Good things happen there!"


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I think management is really important at that age. Don't give her a chance to make mistakes.
> 
> We used Peggy's indoor exercise pen A LOT during early adolescence, and we always made it a very nice place for her.
> 
> ...


Chews don't really keep her on her bed as she has a tendency to take it to her crate but she responds well to the treat heavily and taper off so I do use that method. I will be glad when I don't have to depend on food so much as that's all I seem to be doing right now.......that and throwing balls.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

WinnieThePoodle said:


> Chews don't really keep her on her bed as she has a tendency to take it to her crate but she responds well to the treat heavily and taper off so I do use that method. I will be glad when I don't have to depend on food so much as that's all I seem to be doing right now.......that and throwing balls.


She's a dog. Food rewards are powerful! That won't go away as she gets older.

I taught Peggy to rest on her mat using treat parties, but that was only the first session or two. Now she gets rewarded randomly for settling nicely and I have no intention of stopping that. She's 18 months.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

WinnieThePoodle said:


> will be glad when I don't have to depend on food so much as that's all I seem to be doing right now.......that and throwing balls.


Food isn’t necessary. I don’t use it. I give treats after grooming to thank my dogs for the letting me do the job but other than that, I give random treats, but not for doing what I ask of them. Both will sit and stay on the towel at the door until I wipe their feet. I don’t let it drag too long, but sometimes if I’m busy doing something else, it takes me 5 minutes to get to them.

I know most people work with treats, but I’ve tried and tried and I just hate it.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

My husband hated it at first, too, @Dechi. But when he saw the results with Peggy, he was convinced. 

I didn't really use food rewards with my last girl. She was so small, I found it hard to treat while walking. And I was very into the Dog Whisperer, who didn't use food at all. Plus, Gracie was motivated powerfully just by my energy and her desire to be close to me. So I've had both experiences. 

I think this is a great overview for anyone who's on the fence:









How to Use Food Intelligently in Lure-Reward Dog Training


Based on Dr. Ian Dunbar’s lecture (of the same title). Only available on Dunbar Academy. Try your first month for just $1. Food is extremely useful when training a dog … ,




www.dogstardaily.com


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

PeggyTheParti said:


> My husband hated it at first, too, @Dechi. But when he saw the results with Peggy, he was convinced.


I’m too old to change, lol ! Back in the days, using food to train wasn’t a thing. I don’t feel I need it so I have no desire to do it. I achieve what I want with my dogs and I’m very happy with the way they are. I don’t do training per se, but I have dogs who listen to me and have good manners. Well, not always, as you know Beckie’s walking on a leash is a disaster. That’s the exception to the rule and a place where I would try food (if she ever gets off her stupid restricted diet...)


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Dechi said:


> I’m too old to change, lol ! Back in the days, using food to train wasn’t a thing. I don’t feel I need it so I have no desire to do it. I achieve what I want with my dogs and I’m very happy with the way they are. I don’t do training per se, but I have dogs who listen to me and have good manners. Well, not always, as you know Beckie’s walking on a leash is a disaster. That’s the exception to the rule and a place where I would try food (if she ever gets off her stupid restricted diet...)


That totally makes sense to me, as Peggy is really the first dog I've actively trained beyond good manners. I can't imagine doing trick training without food, but I'm sure it's possible for some dog/human combos.

Gracie was a great everyday companion and I don't think I ever used a food lure with her, not even when I taught her to jump from the floor up into my arms. I loved that easy rapport. 

But I accepted her quirks and limitations much more readily than I accept Peggy's. She was afraid of the vacuum her whole life, she would never have settled on a patio, she'd sometimes bark hysterically on walks, etc. Plus I have someone else in the household this time around. 

My husband didn't have a natural aptitude for even basic training and the inconsistency in our efforts was stressful for us and probably Peggy, too. Following our trainer's methods—basically just food lures faded into random rewards—keeps us more on the same page.

P.S. Still hoping for good news about Beckie's diet! I'm sure you're both totally over the restrictions.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> That totally makes sense to me, as Peggy is really the first dog I've actively trained beyond good manners. I can't imagine doing trick training without food, but I'm sure it's possible for some dog/human combos.
> 
> Gracie was a great everyday companion and I don't think I ever used a food lure with her, not even when I taught her to jump from the floor up into my arms. I loved that easy rapport.
> 
> ...


My husband has different ideas about training and doesn't use lots of treats and thinks body language and tone will do it. Our previous dog (over 20 years ago) was trained this way so he thinks all dogs can be trained like this. She did end up being an absolute wonder of a dog though so I do wonder if that was the training or just the personality of the dog.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I would get that book I recommended above and both of you commit to reading it. Being on the same page will make life with Winnie so much more fun.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

When you taught her to go to her bed did you also teach her that she can't self release? Revisit going to her bed by refreshing it with a reward for every get on the bed that she does promptly. Stay with her, DO NOT walk away. Watch as she stays and tell her she is being good to stay. Take a treat and drop it just far away enough that she will have to get up to get it. As you offer that treat give her a release command (okay or free, hopefully known in other contexts like not self releasing froma sit stay. After she takes the tossed "free" order treat call pup's name and toss another treat back onto her bed. Watch and make her wait in a down on the bed and again without allowing her to release make her wait and then send her on your release order to get another off bed treat. As you repeat this reward the release order less frequently and start to fade the on the bed stay less frequently too but keep rewarding staying on the bed at higher frequency than off. In other words teach your pup that going to and staying on the bed is more rewarding than sneaking off.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Yes, you absolutely need a "I really mean it" tone of voice. My favorite experience with that was with my Arabian mare. Arabians absolutely love to run, especially if they are on a ride with other horses. My son-in-law and I were riding down a gravel road headed for the national forest. I reminded him that it is not safe to canter or gallop on gravel - there's a real danger that the horse might slip. However, his horse began going faster and faster, so my mare felt that she had to take the lead. The usual method of slowing her down was not working, so my commands of "whoa, whoa" was not getting any result. However when I firmly commanded "whoa, g..dammit" - she got the message and stopped!


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> When you taught her to go to her bed did you also teach her that she can't self release? Revisit going to her bed by refreshing it with a reward for every get on the bed that she does promptly. Stay with her, DO NOT walk away. Watch as she stays and tell her she is being good to stay. Take a treat and drop it just far away enough that she will have to get up to get it. As you offer that treat give her a release command (okay or free, hopefully known in other contexts like not self releasing froma sit stay. After she takes the tossed "free" order treat call pup's name and toss another treat back onto her bed. Watch and make her wait in a down on the bed and again without allowing her to release make her wait and then send her on your release order to get another off bed treat. As you repeat this reward the release order less frequently and start to fade the on the bed stay less frequently too but keep rewarding staying on the bed at higher frequency than off. In other words teach your pup that going to and staying on the bed is more rewarding than sneaking off.


We do frequent short training sessions when she has to get to her bed and I wait to release her. I use the word 'out' purely because that's the one we used in puppy class so I stuck with it. She goes in and out great during training. I have now started to introduce it during the course of the day. A couple of times she whined while on the bed but I realised she was trying to tell me something. As soon as I asked if she wanted to go to the toilet her ears and head twitched and she looked at me in that 'yes mum that's what I want' and made a bolt for the door when I went to open it.

I always feel bad making her sit on her bed when I know she wants to play. Is it unfair to make her sit there when I want her to and not when she wants to?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You are the "grown up" in this relationship and it is perfectly appropriate to make her stay on her bed when that is what you want/need. If it is going to be for more than a minute or so though I would make it a down rather than a sit. You control all access to resources like water, food, social interaction, other husbandry resources like training. You are also responsible for keeping your pup safe and sometimes that means staying in a crate or on a bed in a designated area. There is no reason whatsoever to feel like it is unfair to make her stay on her bed. It is the kindest thing to do to provide clear guidance in daily life.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> You are the "grown up" in this relationship and it is perfectly appropriate to make her stay on her bed when that is what you want/need. If it is going to be for more than a minute or so though I would make it a down rather than a sit. You control all access to resources like water, food, social interaction, other husbandry resources like training. You are also responsible for keeping your pup safe and sometimes that means staying in a crate or on a bed in a designated area. There is no reason whatsoever to feel like it is unfair to make her stay on her bed. It is the kindest thing to do to provide clear guidance in daily life.


I suppose I want her to think I am a 'cool mum' by playing and training and walking but apart from having my own work to do, she has way more energy than me and sometimes I just need to sit and rest my bones. I do play and train and walk (twice) everyday but I'm not as young as I used to be. A small breakthrough over the last couple of days, I now have her not rushing to the front door barking every time the door bell rings. I feel a sense of achievement. I still have to work on the stay on your bed but we are working on it. The next big stage I have to cover is going in her crate during the day so I can go out. She sleeps in a crate upstairs all night but cries if I put her in the day one. She goes into it by herself to eat and drink and takes her treats in there to eat but doesn't like me shutting the door (although at night has no problem with that). Same with a pen, she just cries. I have tried all the things I'm supposed to do. A dog trainer recently told me to leave her crying and she will eventually stop but others say no don't do that. She said people have been doing it that way for years especially before they could read things on the internet.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Look up online for "Susan Garrett crate games" for some ideas.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

One thing to make sure you don't do is reward while there is unsettled behavior and/or crying. I generally think the no attention to crying is the better method. It is similar to the stage in infant development where you have to ignore all the little bit of crying at night and let the baby figure out they can calm themselves and fall back to sleep on their own. Same thing for baby dogs as for baby humans.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> One thing to make sure you don't do is reward while there is unsettled behavior and/or crying. I generally think the no attention to crying is the better method. It is similar to the stage in infant development where you have to ignore all the little bit of crying at night and let the baby figure out they can calm themselves and fall back to sleep on their own. Same thing for baby dogs as for baby humans.


And would you say that makes it even more powerful when you reward the desired behaviour? 

I think of the time puppy Peggy tried scratching the screen door to come back inside. I was already walking towards her when she did it, so was able to instantly turn my back to her. Then, when the scratching stopped, I turned back around and let her in. She's never scratched the door since.

Would she have learned so quickly if I'd not been there to reinforce the correct behaviour? Now she'll sit and sit (and sit and sit) quietly until someone lets her in.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Of course reinforcing a desired behavior helps, but I think you have to be careful not to reward the wrong thing accidentally. So if a pup offers a sit it is nice to capture and reward that but no cookie if the dog is breaking the sit to get the cookie (as a simple example). Also poodles can be con artists. Lily thought bubble "she likes it when I sit so I will do tons of sits for tons of cookies." Catherine thought bubble "not so fast girlie, give me a sit with duration and distractions, then you can have a couple of cookies for offering and maintaining nice behavior."


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Of course reinforcing a desired behavior helps, but I think you have to be careful not to reward the wrong thing accidentally. So if a pup offers a sit it is nice to capture and reward that but no cookie if the dog is breaking the sit to get the cookie (as a simple example). Also poodles can be con artists. Lily thought bubble "she likes it when I sit so I will do tons of sits for tons of cookies." Catherine thought bubble "not so fast girlie, give me a sit with duration and distractions, then you can have a couple of cookies for offering and maintaining nice behavior."


Lol YES. Like how Peggy started bringing me laundry because I once traded a sock for treats. 

Poodles are a master class.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Of course reinforcing a desired behavior helps, but I think you have to be careful not to reward the wrong thing accidentally. So if a pup offers a sit it is nice to capture and reward that but no cookie if the dog is breaking the sit to get the cookie (as a simple example). Also poodles can be con artists. Lily thought bubble "she likes it when I sit so I will do tons of sits for tons of cookies." Catherine thought bubble "not so fast girlie, give me a sit with duration and distractions, then you can have a couple of cookies for offering and maintaining nice behavior."


I'm glad you said this because I was told that dogs can't con us and I can totally see when Winnie is trying to con me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

WinnieThePoodle said:


> I'm glad you said this because I was told that dogs can't con us and I can totally see when Winnie is trying to con me.


"Con" implies nefarious intent. Poodles are just good at doing what works for them.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> "Con" implies nefarious intent. Poodles are just good at doing what works for them.


I meant 'con' in the same context as mentioned in the previous comment, like trying to get one over on me sometimes. Not in a malicious way but in trying to outsmart me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah, nefarious intent is not a character trait of dogs, rather we are talking about a dog that is thinking about what they can gain from a particular situation. Since we control resources our dogs have access to I think it is very natural to them to try to get access to as much as they can. It is up to us to show them we don't have nefarious intent in controlling resources. We can certainly be negative in our intentions, but I just don't think dogs have that kind of thinking.


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