# Dogs don't need carbohydrates



## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I haven't done a lot of reading about dog raw feeding. But from what I understand, dogs do need some plant material. Right? Isn't that why a lot of raw feed recipes include green tripe? 

See, I thought that in the wild dogs evolved getting their plant nutrients from prey intestine, green tripe, partially digested and ready for uptake in doggy digestive systems.

I definitely could be wrong, though.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I give mine a small amount of green and orange veg, and find they are less inclined to eat sheep poo as a result. Works for us! There are some trace dietary elements that can be quite hard to include without vegetable matter - vitamin E for example - and vegetables bulk up the food without adding too many calories. 

DogAware.com Articles: Produce Pros (Dog World Magazine)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, I've done a fair amount of studying on this and apparently, wolves and wild dogs will eat the stomach of a small animal like a squirrel or rabbit but when they take down large game they leave some of the larger bones and the stomach contents and intestines. They sometimes eat some of the lining of the stomach. Raw green tripe is wonderful stuff. But it's the lining mostly of the stomach. And intestines can have parasites in them, so that's not something good to feed. If you read those links, you'll see why vegetables or grains are not needed in a canine diet. 

They'll eat berries when in season but it is not the mainstay of their diet or necessary. It may be on account of the sweetness. Mammals love sweets. Or it may be something to eat, pure and simple, when something else isn't available. So I'm not 100% sure. It is one of those things where I don't know that anyone is absolutely sure. But as far as what is thought of as a prey model diet, carbohydrates such as vegetables, fruits and grains are not a natural or necessary part of a dog's diet. I still sneak in about 1 tsp of vegetables that I've steamed and put through my vita mix. lol. I just can't quite let go. But I'm close. haha.

Here's another good article just on a balanced diet: Raw Fed Dogs - Natural Prey Model Rawfeeding Diet


And another one about the debate over vegetables. I highly recommend this one in particular as it really breaks things down as to why they aren't needed. The Great Debate: Do Dogs Need Fruits and Vegetables? - Primal Pooch

Anyhow, I'll keep reading things until I've exhausted the subject. I do things rather obsessively sometimes.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

I don't typically feed veg. When I do fed a ground mix with veg it's coarse chopped and I can clearly see the pieces of carrot when he poops, so obviously he gets nothing from them. 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Here's another neat site that shows where all the essential vitamins etc come from, both from meats and plants. 
https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-diets-for-dogs-getting-enough-vitamins-and-minerals/

I feed fresh sardines once or twice a week and a squirt of Icelandic sardine/anchovy oil on their food except when they're fed fish. They also get an egg or part of an egg on their food a couple times a week. Or as a snack. 




> VITAMIN E
> Antioxidant which helps prevent cancer and heart disease. Prevents cell damage. Reduces blood pressure and promotes healthy skin and hair.
> 
> MEAT SOURCES: Ostrich, buffalo, egg, halibut, haddock, sardine, kidney, liver, brain


Hey Fjm...if it keeps them from eating sheep poo, then it can't be argued that it's a good thing. I think I'll feed them more vegetables if it would keep them from eating dog poo. That drives me bonkers when I catch them. That's the one time I can't remain very calm. I say, "Hey! Stop! You disgusting little f*@%#ers." LOL. "Don't you dare give me any kisses for the rest of the day." :ahhhhh:

Like they say, if they're fed a great variety, they will get all the essentials.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kayla_baxter said:


> I don't typically feed veg. When I do fed a ground mix with veg it's coarse chopped and I can clearly see the pieces of carrot when he poops, so obviously he gets nothing from them.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Some say cooking and pureeing (sp?) them helps break them down. But some say even then, they're not usable because they lack salivary amylase, an enzyme omnivores and herbivores have. They also lack the grinding mechanism of our flat teeth and lateral movement of our jaws. They also have an exceedingly short intestine so that the cellulose doesn't have time to be broken down sufficiently to allow the vitamins to pass through the capillaries of the intestinal walls and into the blood stream. They do produce amylase in the pancreas. But by then the food is almost on it's way out and apparently not much time to do any good. What I wonder about though is...is it good to get a little undigestable matter. Maybe that helps bulk up the poo a little bit and that's a good thing, right? 

So, what I've been doing is taking a whole bunch of vegetables, say; carrots, celery, broccoli, zucchini, a little kale maybe or spinach, some beet or green beans, pumpkin and steam it all lightly...very gently, just enough to tenderize a little. Then I put it through my Vita Mix machine at 250 mph it gets majorly squished...pureed. Then I pour into little tiny containers and freeze....thaw enough for 2-3 days worth and give just a half tsp or tsp to each dog. They aren't that crazy about it but kind of eat it anyhow since it's all mixed in there. Some times I don't give any if I forgot to thaw.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I give a small amount of sweetcorn too - makes it so much easier to spot the tiny poops amongst the dead leaves! I either cook the veg in with the meat, or in a drop of chicken stock. It seems to be popular with the dogs as long as it has a hint of meat about it.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Humans evolved to eat a vegetarian diet with meat as a protein source. We have grinding teeth to break down the fibre. There was no wheat or barley in the evolving human diet and this introduced food has caused health problems in modern humans. Dogs as said ate mostly what is contained in prey and occasional berries and greens. They have no teeth to mash up veg. That been said: The digestive properties of a dog are better able to manage veg than a human. (stronger acid) other than that we are very similar. and a dog manages mashed part cooked veg well. They do get some vitamin benefit from veg and the most important thing is _it does no harm _In fact the stool is firmer with veg than without. As for carbohydrates too much is bad for humans too. Excessive carbs are the cause of much ill health. 

http://www.lauckemills.com.au/products/category/LWXJRCMW-pets/3573

I have always fed a (working dog kibble) (Police GSDs and Hunting dogs) In Australia any sheep station or cattle station (ranch) feeds a complete food kibble. (Try stock feed agents) The one I use (and have for 50 years) is cheaper than all the science diet and Nesle crap. Vets and pet stores will not keep it. It's too cheap and there is not enough profit in it. It is the most popular working dog food in OZ. In addition I feed 1 Kg (2.2 lbs) of red raw meat each week. and Grace gets about 100g (3 oz) of table scraps (sorted to exclude some foods) each day. 

A year or two ago I had a "dirty rat" stealing all the strawberries from my shade-house. I set traps and never caught the blighter!! Then one day I caught Grace with strawberries hanging out of her mouth. The dirty rat!!!!

Eric


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I remember reading a cute article about an extremely overweight Giant Pyrenees with a glorious coat. The owners swore to their vet that they were carefully watching his diet and couldn't understand why it continued to gain weight. The dog was eating avocados from a tree in their yard! Dogs are opportunists. Buck has pulled figs and sour loquats off our trees and eaten portions of them. He forages inside too and has snagged whatever he can

The grains and other carbs in kibble are profit margin and useful as the first article mentioned in extending shelf life. Commercial dog food is a way to conveniently feed your dog the minimum daily protein requirement. And sadly, we are all about convenience.


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

Connie (a Scottie) ate all the little fallen plums from the ornamental plum tree that I would let her. The other 2 would probably have liked them, too, but they aren't allowed where the plum tree is. Also...in the past my dogs would always enjoy horse poop and goat poop. Maybe that is one way they can get pre-digested vegetable matter.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I don't think any dog or person should eliminate carbs. They should be higher quality carbs and cereal is not. I would think that dogs would need a balanced diet. With a raw diet you get to choose exactly what goes into their diet. I do really like sweet potatoes and peas. That's a whole lot better carb than corn and cereal. I'm not sure about whether dogs need fiber or not.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Mine are getting pumpkin today. I overdid the liver yesterday and we all suffered during the night. As Sophy pointed out, as I crawled out of bed for the umpteenth time to let her out, I should know better by now and it was All My Fault. Trouble is I want them to get some beef liver, but it's almost impossible to cut it small enough, even when part frozen - the right amount for Sophy would be about 5g a day, which is about 1/6 of an ounce! I shall have to revert to liver treats, I think - she seems to tolerate it cooked into biscuits rather better.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Could you mince it. If so freeze immediately after mincing or mince and feed fresh each time. There are some VERY small food processors around. They will finely chop 1/2 a cupful.
Eric


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Just try it out! See how your dogs do and go from there. 

For MY dogs (4 at the time), I think I already explained in a previous post. They did great for about 2 weeks time on PMR. And then the frantic grass eating started. Another couple weeks go by and more grass eating- the very moment I let them out to pee they all 4 would gorge on grass. And then came the dirt eating. They'd eat the grass and roots, and then start taking mouthfuls of dirt! 

Coats started to suffer, too. Hair falling out and growing in very coarse and wirey. 

I know of other people with the same complaints in feeding PMR. 
I know of other people with ZERO complaints with PMR. 

You have to try it and see. You can read all the articles, talk to the 'experts' all you want, but your dogs get the final say in what works for them. 

Go for it  Get off the fence and try


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

ericwd9 said:


> Could you mince it. If so freeze immediately after mincing or mince and feed fresh each time. There are some VERY small food processors around. They will finely chop 1/2 a cupful.
> Eric


I did think of making a puree and measuring with a syringe, but the biscuits have done the trick in the past and are less of a faff. I've posted elsewhere about Sophy refusing pumpkin, and then changing her mind when she saw how much Poppy enjoyed it - another argument for having two dogs (hint!).


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Also, that second article... I don't trust anything from Rawfeddog, since that is exactly the diet I was feeding (and following exactly to their guidelines) and then accused of doing it "wrong" when I came in with the question of grass and dirt gorging. I must be doing something wrong? I was following their guidelines! And then I was banned from their forum LOL. 

Tell me this... where is the proof that dogs don't benefit from the phytonutrients and antioxidants found in veggies and fruits? 

Shouldn't we give them that advantage? 

Food for thought!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Dogs are not obligate carnivores (cats are). Here is a piece of feeding dogs as the omnivores they are.

Dogs Are Omnivores and Should be Fed as Such | Web DVM


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-feeders-why-are-you-feeding-your-dogs-like-cats/

Here's another. 

From learning from my own dogs, I will always include veggies and fruit in their diets, as well as grain and potato (sweet or white). 

But right now I feed commercial food (dry and cans) and they are all doing great.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> I remember reading a cute article about an extremely overweight Giant Pyrenees with a glorious coat. The owners swore to their vet that they were carefully watching his diet and couldn't understand why it continued to gain weight. The dog was eating avocados from a tree in their yard! Dogs are opportunists. Buck has pulled figs and sour loquats off our trees and eaten portions of them. He forages inside too and has snagged whatever he can
> 
> The grains and other carbs in kibble are profit margin and useful as the first article mentioned in extending shelf life. Commercial dog food is a way to conveniently feed your dog the minimum daily protein requirement. * And sadly, we are all about convenience*.


Speak yourself. lol. I'm not. :act-up: I'm a work horse when it comes to my dogs. I get these big, huge roasts or hunks of tripe and various organ meats and I spend an hour or more at a time cutting it all up, packaging enough for only one meal in little baggies and labeling everything, putting it in the freezer. I get poultry shears and cut the chicken up. This preparation happens each time I get some new food thing. Every morning or the night before, I think about what they'll have the next day and take it out of the freezer, making sure I have all the components they need. I spend a lot of hours researching what's best for my dogs. So, in that way none of it is what I'd call convenient. lol. Yes, dumping kibble in a bowl was always convenient but not what's best for my dogs. It's not about convenience for me, but about a species specific diet...what is best for my dogs. I'll find other ways for convenience.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I don't think any dog or person should eliminate carbs. They should be higher quality carbs and cereal is not. I would think that dogs would need a balanced diet. With a raw diet you get to choose exactly what goes into their diet. I do really like sweet potatoes and peas. That's a whole lot better carb than corn and cereal. I'm not sure about whether dogs need fiber or not.


Did you read the links I posted? I don't think so. :act-up:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Show me a study of what a pack of wild poodles eat and I will consider following the same diet for my girls....


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

David Mech is considered the world's leading expert on wolves. Dogs and wolves have identical dietary needs, the same systems other than dogs having smaller teeth and jaws basically. The things that we think they get from fruits and vegetables, they get from fat and meat, as it is explained in this and other things I've read. They are not like us. And no, neither are they obligate because they can _*get by*_ with scavenging and eating other things and they may like some of those things, just like we like some things that we don't need. From an evolutionary standpoint, those that got by on scavenging human type foods (once we were agriculturists and ate grain) survived and those that didn't, didn't. Their digestion didn't change except for more ability to break down starch than before. They can but the debate is whether it's really optimum for their health. This article explains. They get by.

I recommend this whole article be read. But here are a few snippets.

The Great Debate: Do Dogs Need Fruits and Vegetables? - Primal Pooch



> What about the rest of the time, when a wolf catches much larger prey? According to leading wolf researcher David L. Mech who is a senior scientist with the Biological Resource Division and U.S. Geological Survey, wolves do not eat stomach contents. Mech has been studying wolves and their prey since 1958, and is quoted saying, “the vegetation in the intestinal tract is of no interest to the wolves” in his book Wolves:Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation. He also goes on to say, “The wolf’s diet consists mostly of muscle meat and fatty tissue from various animals. Heart, lung, liver and other internal organs are eaten. Bones are crushed to get at the marrow, and bone fragments are eaten as well. Even the hair and skin are sometimes consumed. The only part consistently ignored is the stomach and it’s contents.” You can find more quotes on the diet of wolves and the role stomach contents play by reading Dr. Mech’s books. You can also find more quotes from David L Mech here.
> 
> Other wolf researchers have confirmed the same finding, that wolves generally avoid the stomach contents and intestines of their prey animals.






> We can garner that dogs were designed to eat meat by comparing their anatomy and physiology to their carnivorous relatives.
> 
> If you were to study other carnivores in the wild (lions, tigers, wolves, etc.). You’ll notice they too only eat meat. No other carnivore in a natural setting has a need for plant matter. If no other carnivore in the animal kingdom needs grains, fruits, or vegetables to be in optimal condition, then why do our dogs? Dogs come equipped with essentially the same anatomy and physiology as their wolf counterparts (remember they differ genetically by 0.2%) which should prove that just as their carnivorous relatives, our dog’s were NOT meant to eat grains, fruits or vegetables.






> *Digestion
> 
> Dogs have elastic stomachs designed to stretch and accommodate large amounts of meat, bones, organs and hide – which is much more dense and heavy than plant matter. With short intestines and a short colon, food is able to pass through a carnivore’s digestive system quickly.
> 
> ...








> So, are Fruits and Vegetables Bad?
> 
> This is a tough question to answer, which is why it’s so hard for people to come to an accurate conclusion. Fruits and vegetables are not inherently bad and don’t cause your dog great harm. Fruits and veggies are not poisons. If your dog consumes them, you won’t see any immediate, negative reaction. The problem lies in that it is the wrong kind of food for them to eat. Why bother feeding fruits and vegetables if your dog cannot properly assimilate the nutrients from them? Since dogs weren’t designed to survive on carbohydrates, it’s really a moot point in my opinion.
> 
> ...



*Anyhow, that's one look at it. I have more research to do because I'm still a tiny bit snagged on the other side of the fence. lol. I think devil's advocate should be played a little while looking at different sides to things and trying to get at the real truth. It is true that most studies are paid for by dog food companies because studies are expensive and who has money like dog food companies? Naturally, they're going to sing the praises of the stuff their food is made out of. Carbs. I don't put much stock in what vets say about nutrition.*


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

You have to try it to see how YOUR dogs do on it. 

Every dog is an individual, just like every person. Some bodies need more of one nutrient than another. That's ok, and hopefully humans pay attention (to their own bodies and those of their dogs) and adjust accordingly. 

I was on the RFD board in 2010 when a lady, frustrated that her dog was going bald around his butt and chest, decided to experiment with food. First she added flax seed. Then she made a combo of flax, pumpkin, etc seeds. Then she added in ground squash, and then more veggies in a variety. Hair grew back in after 2 years of being bald on eating a PMR diet. Something was missing for that dog. Do you want to guess what the PMR community did? She was harassed both on her thread and privately. She deleted all her entries, sadly, which detailed what foods she was adding and pictures of progress over several months. IT was a loss of a great bit of information. 

Again. Try it. Stop reading the articles waiting for some definitive proof. If you feel like this is the way to go, do it! But keep in mind, a human having a 'belief system' for 'how a dog should eat' is not necessarily best for said dog. Pay attention to your dogs. If it doesn't feel right, you can switch back to the way you are already doing it, with thriving dogs eating a variety of veggies and fruits, and enjoy those phytonutrients and antioxidants, even though some other people believe that "dogs don't need" them and that "dogs = wolves"

EDIT TO ADD: "The real truth" = dog gets the last word. Always. 

JMO


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, I put a lot of stock into what David Mech says. I've read his works and he really is an expert on canine diet. I agree that individual dogs have variations in what works for them. However, they're not completely different. They still have the basic, identical systems. 

I have stories too about my dogs picking raspberries off my bushes, digging carrots up out of my garden. They like those things. But those things don't make up a significant part of their diet. They've come to get by on what's in commercial dog food. But I don't think their health is optimum on most of it. Some is better than others, granted. I give my dogs very little vegetable matter...very small amounts. I haven't seen anything but improved health, improved digestion (Jose`'s remarkable story) hair, vitality on an almost exclusive prey model diet.

But I think you've made some really valid points Shamrockmommy. There isn't likely to be any real, strong, 100% proof about it. We do the best we can, watch our dogs, see how they thrive or just get by. I do know that a good raw food diet seems to prevent a lot of allergy problems, I've noticed less arthritis, much more energy in my old dog, a much shinier coat, improved strength and oomph in my little, energy bundles. I don't have to brush teeth anymore. (well, I do some with Jose` since he doesn't crunch bones...he gets fish bones though) I've just seen a lot of difference since switching. I believe in it because it's fresh, whole, food that is not processed. The nutrients are not destroyed. They are eating in a natural way. And the fact that kibble hasn't been around for that long, something like 60 or 70 years...and how people think that's natural???I don't get that at all. _"Studies show that kibble is better than what dogs relatives eat in nature." _What kind of logic is that?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think there are many shades of grey here, rather than a straightforward yes/no. Can a diet be concocted from grains, other plants and supplements that will fulfill a dog's nutritional needs? Probably yes, with enough research and effort, but it is a somewhat perverse thing to do. Cats, we know, are different and need meat. Should grains and other plants form the major part of a dog's diet? Probably not, if we are looking at what they are designed to eat and digest by nature. Does a smallish proportion of plants in the diet do any harm, as long as those known to be dangerous are excluded? Almost certainly not, or we would have innumerable examples like the poor little kitten in the article. Are they likely to do some good, either through the nutrients they contain, the fibre they provide, or by bulking up the diet while adding few calories? Probably yes, by adding to the general variety in the diet. I think the simple advice for humans - Eat (real) food. Not too much. Mostly plants. - can be rephrased for dogs - Feed (real) food. Not too much. Mostly animal protein. But in the end I think Shamrockmummy is right - we do the research, find something that we think is optimal given our resources (money, time, energy), and then monitor how the dogs react. What is perfect for one can be wrong for another.


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

For me, I feel that if I have to purée or steam vegetables in order for my dogs to actually get any use out of them then they don't need them. If I can't feed it raw and unprocessed then it's not a real part of my dogs' diets. 
I've also started eating low carb (under 20g a day) myself for the last few weeks and the difference already is insane. I'm not hungry, don't crave snacks, have way more energy in the morning and don't crash after work in the evening. 


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I did try real hard to read the links, but can't seem to keep my focus on them (some attention deficit) so I'll try again tonight. Honest.

I've also seen studies done on ancestral people done. Which brings up questions like were ancestral dogs healthier? Did they live longer" ? Seems dogs living longer and healthier as diets became more varied. Were they infested with parasites and worms? The very ancestral people ate meat only until they became less nomadic and grew gardens. Eventually they ended up on too much corn (south American and American Indians ) and died earlier of poor health and rotted teeth.

I don't think ancestral dogs were as healthy or lived as long as dogs of today. As dogs evolved, the healthier ones lived longer. Did their diet improve? What was the ratio between ancestral or our domestic dogs living longer than 6 or 8 or 10 years?

Fat provides energy . Protein provides enzymes which improve efficiency in a body. Carbs provide quick energy and the excess is stored as fat. Complex carbs are better than cereal. 

I think dog foods have gotten cheap and disgusting over the years because "vitamins" could be added as needed without the food source. And greed. In our times now it seems that cereal type food is causing the poor health. It's been a tremendous improvement by increasing the healthy sources of food, such as meat and vegetables, and healthy carbs , etc, which supply vitamins and minerals. The protein and fat increase has greatly improved back to what a dog really needs. Protein and fat should be increased to be equal to or more than cheap carbs. 

If you look at the Kreb's cycle, (food broken down by the body into what the body can absorb and use), it "proves" that everything we eat is broken down into sugars. But we still need enzymes, vitamins, minerals, fiber, etc. We don't need cereal.

So I think I will go with a doggie diet that is closer to 33% protein, 33%fat, and 30# carbs. I can also adjust as needed. 

That's my thought anyway. Right or wrong. I don't think some raw meat added to my dog's diet is going to hurt and probably increase my dog's health. : )


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Also, that second article... I don't trust anything from Rawfeddog, since that is exactly the diet I was feeding (and following exactly to their guidelines) and then accused of doing it "wrong" when I came in with the question of grass and dirt gorging. I must be doing something wrong? I was following their guidelines! And then I was banned from their forum LOL.
> 
> Tell me this... where is the proof that dogs don't benefit from the phytonutrients and antioxidants found in veggies and fruits?
> 
> ...


Friend, I just wanted to let you know I had a similar experience.

I was in the Raw Cat yahoo group at one time, then I was booted.

I was growing wheat grass for my personal green smoothies and my cat was grazing on it occasionally. WHen I mentioned this, I was immediately booted with no explanation and no answers.

There's some raw fanatics out there, I'm glad this community is more even keeled.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kayla_baxter said:


> *For me, I feel that if I have to purée or steam vegetables in order for my dogs to actually get any use out of them then they don't need them. If I can't feed it raw and unprocessed then it's not a real part of my dogs' diets. *
> I've also started eating low carb (under 20g a day) myself for the last few weeks and the difference already is insane. I'm not hungry, don't crave snacks, have way more energy in the morning and don't crash after work in the evening.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am leaning this way as well. Dogs didn't have stoves or vita mixes and they didn't have Purina all the time they were evolving. They probably scavenged on occasional vegetation, berries...like wolves do. But I do not believe, the more I think about it, that vegetation is an integral dietary need for a carnivore.

And I also think since dogs are the most successful species from an evolutionary standpoint, they had to be pretty healthy to reproduce, pass on their survival genes and evolve to what we have now... at least 2 evolutionary events from a species that is a common ancestor of the dog and wolf...to evolve for thousands of years, they couldn't have been very unhealthy I do not believe. If our dogs live longer than those in the wild, is it on account of Purina dog chow? Or do we protect them from predators or diseases, or other things? How can we conclude it's on account of commercial food that our dogs live longer? I absolutely do not buy that one.

I know of several dogs fed a prey model diet (without vegetables and grain) whose hair didn't fall out. It's possibly something where the dog wasn't use to it or some other reason? Allergies, vaccines maybe? (the adjuvants) Or maybe not. Maybe some missing element. Not all raw food diets are done in a balanced or correct way. But I don't know that all or most dogs on a prey model diet have hair falling out. Also, my Jose` eats poop and grass sometimes too. All the dogs do at times, but Jose` is really obsessed. And that doesn't depend on what diet he's on. He's always done that. The dogs always liked horsey road apples. Hey, why not? They're scavengers. They're like Mikey on that commercial. "Give it to Mikey. He'll eat anything." It doesn't mean they need it or that it should be part of a carnivore's diet. 

The thing is, anything that could be derived from vegetables IF dogs can indeed metabolize them (which so far all I see are physiological reasons why they do not as written in many articles) can be derived from animal protein. All the vitamins and trace minerals, enzymes, amino acids, omegas etc are found in animal product. 

This lists all (at least I think it's all) the stuff they need and where it comes from: https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-diets-for-dogs-getting-enough-vitamins-and-minerals/



Nobody seems to want to read links and there's not enough room to post whole articles right on the face here. But here's a snippet for those who like to read and learn, that explains something I think is key. I ask myself also, what is it I'm thinking they'll get out of vegetables and fruits or carbs. Is it vitamins, minerals, energy, glucose? Fiber? Maybe fiber. But here, see what you think of this about why it isn't the carbs, but the glucose...bottom line.


*



Carbohydrates do provide quick and easy energy. However, it is not 'carbs' that maintain the health of the organs listed in the quotes above, but glucose. Glucose can be obtained from both fat and protein through a process known as gluconeogenesis, where amino acids and fat (not fatty acids; those use a different cycle) are "converted" to glucose. If carbs are present, though, they will be converted to energy first before fat and protein because they are easier to use. This is the reason that carbs regulate how much starch and fat will be broken down and utilized. If there is a plethora of carbohydrates, fat will be stored instead of used. If there are not enough carbs to fulfill energy needs, then fat will be converted to glucose and used. If no carbs are present, then fat and protein are used to fill energy needs.

Excess carbohydrates are stored in the liver and the muscles as glycogen AND in the body as fat. However, since carboydrates are not the only source of glycogen (which also comes from proteins and fats through a process known as glyconeogenesis), they are not absolutely necessary. Human athletes commonly perform 'carbo loading' techniques where they eat huge carby meals of things like pasta to rapidly replenish their glycogen stores in their muscles and liver before a competition. The carbohydrates, when in excess, are more rapidly converted and stored as glycogen compared to fat and protein. HOWEVER, once again, fat and protein can also be stored as glycogen, which makes carbohydrates unnecessary unless you want to perform 'carbo loading'. I believe it is Purina that has capitalized on this and now has "energy bars" of complex carbohydrates for the canine athlete to help them recover more quickly between events. But, carbohydrates do not rebuild spent muscle tissue, etc. Protein does that. Fat is also easily utilized for quick energy, too, and provides more energy per gram that carbohydrate does.

It is not low carbohydrate intake that causes things like cardiac symptoms and angina; it is low blood glucose. If there is not enough glucose in the blood system, then you run into many problems including black outs, cardiac symptoms (like arrhythmia), and angina (chest pain). Of course, it is interesting that wolves can go without food for weeks and still survive well enough. How do they do that without eating carbs? Simple: they use up fat reserves and may even dip into their own muscle to get the necessary proteins and fats to provide glucose and energy for their bodies. So carbohydrates themselves are not actually necessary; glucose is necessary, and that can be obtained from protein and fat.

What about the brain? The brain is preferentially given glucose above all other organs. Glucose in its ready form, at that. But does this mean carbohydrates are necessary? Since glucose can be had from fat and protein as well, then no.

Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?

Click to expand...

*


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I want to try to help folks wrap their head around the raw concept. A balanced diet for a human is not the same for cats, and neither of their diets are the same for dogs.

Dogs and Cats and Humans all need the same nutrients, different ratios. And how each of our bodies gets those nutrients is different.

For example, humans are better equipped to get vitamin A from plant sources, while cats are better equipped to get vit A from protein sources.

Another example. Gardeners are told that different plants need different soil pH. If a plant is acid loving and is in an alkaline soil, it won't be able to take the nutrients it needs from the soil. The alkalinity blocks it's receptors from working. Acid loving and alkaline plants all need the same nutrients, but how they go about getting them is different.

Does that make sense?

If you don't believe me, google "how do humans get vitamin A"
Then google, "how do cats get vitamin A"

Sorry I keep using cats, but I know about raw cat more than raw dog at this point.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My next question after all that is...what about vegetables for the purpose of fiber? Is undigestible fiber helpful for their stools? Too much fiber can prevent the absorption of nutrients, so we mustn't give too much. But what about a little? Do they eat grass because they need it or because they need to fix a belly ache? Or do they just like the taste once in a while? Would some corn that just goes right through them help bulk up their poo? My dogs poo is quite fine usually. It will tend to have a very small amount of mucus on part of it, which I understand is normal....just as long as it's not a lot. Their poo is usually well formed, not very hard and not soft. Usually, unless I do something wrong like give too much bone or not enough. Then they're right back on track the next meal. 

I know one thing. They will get hair when they eat whole prey. That must be fiber, right? What about putting a little hair in their food? (I've got an ongoing supply of that) That would make it more prey-like, right? Whatdya think? LOL. Maybe I'll continue giving them their 1/2 to 1 tsp of veggies...just as long as it's not very much. I like it when their poo is consistently firm, but not too hard. Nice color...not too dark, not too light and not too odoriferous. So it's like wine...clarity, (or is that diamonds?) color, viscosity (legs) and bouquet, right? Haha. Gross!:act-up:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

poofs said:


> I want to try to help folks wrap their head around the raw concept. A balanced diet for a human is not the same for cats, and neither of their diets are the same for dogs.
> 
> Dogs and Cats and Humans all need the same nutrients, different ratios. And how each of our bodies gets those nutrients is different.
> 
> ...



It makes perfect sense. I'm a gardener. lol. Yes, you're right. Putting lime around helps pretty much all kinds of plants be able to use their nutrients better, even if they're acid loving. Lime is a wonderful thing here in western Washington where the soil is acidic. 

We all need these vitamins but carnivores get them from animal sources more than from plants. I think we get them from both plants and animals. But we really need fiber and that's from plants. I think even we have some difficulty taking vitamins from vegetables. I think I read somewhere that we need a LOT of vegetables to get_ some_ vitamins. I eat loads of vegetables just in case. Plus they're yummy.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

What I understand about fiber in cats.
Whole prey feeding is the ultimate goal.
Because fur and feathers do provide a bit of fiber.
(edit to add: whole prey is considered a complete meal for cats. The ratio of fat, muscle, bone, organ, fiber is perfect.)

But also, proteins provide fiber for cats. All cell membranes, for mammals, are made of mostly cholesterol. Cats bodies don't absorb cholesterol as well as humans. For cats, protein provides a source of fiber, too.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Very nice information.
It's funny how we as people know exactly what is needed by our bodies down to the smallest pebble. Has the same amount of research gone into dogs? 

I do super admit that dogs should be getting more meat and protein in their diet than most foods offer. Foods are now easy to get with additional protein and fat, unlike Purina,etc.. I should do more reading , I have to admit that I have very little knowledge of dog nutrition and how they metabolize it.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Unfortunately, the main bulk of studies, (which cost a TON of money to conduct) are done by those who have a ton of money....Dog food companies. So naturally, they're going to "prove" that the ingredients they use (starch, vegetables, fruits, grain) are necessary for our carnivorous dogs, whose digestive mechanism is the same as a wolf....whose dna is something like 99% that of a wolf. But studies by wolf and wild dog experts are small. David Mech, I think is credentialed enough for me to tend to believe. 

I also don't give much credibility to veterinarians who receive very little education in nutrition. What they apparently get are seminars given by who else???? Dog food companies like Purina and Science Diet. They get kick backs for selling or pushing their food in their clinics. So, do I trust vets in the subject of food? Hell no. Medicine? yeah, most of it. Not all.

I do understand that dogs have evolved to be able to digest carbs like grains and vegetables better than they may have eons ago. However, I don't think that because they have copies of the genes that can somewhat deal with grain, that it means that it is optimum for their health...or something natural for them. You don't see wild dogs grazing or foraging in wheat or corn fields or grazing on grass as a herbivore does. I get it too, that they will eat berries. Wolves eat berries as a taste treat I believe, not as a necessary or significant dietary necessity.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I'd say that we def know more about human biology.
However, theories change. For example, just 30 years ago butter was the devil, but now we realize margarine isn't all that great for you either.

And I just want to say. I'm no micro-biologist, nor am I a writer.

I'm trying to explain concepts I learned with a lay mind in layman's terms. 

Like when I explained the cholesterol thing, I was a bit clumsy wording that. I should have said cats don't break down cholesterol the same as humans.
And it's more complex than just cholesterol, there's other processes going on. I just remember reading that some time ago and it was a good tool to help me grasp the intricacies.

Another thing about fiber and cats. Cats don't poop as much as humans. In the wild they don't want to give up their position to prey and other predators by way of scent.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I do think it boils down to the best nutrition is from the least processed. Which means frosted cake and donuts are the ultimate worst. Margerine is processed, butter is not. Even mayo is or can be unprocessed. It's oil and egg.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

"Vets get kick backs from science diet"

What exactly is a kick back? Every vet I've asked, and my vet tech niece has said they receive no benefits or fancy trips or money from selling science diet. They offer the food for sale because it is well researched and has prescription diets. 

I have to disagree that dogs are not wolves. Sure they share 99% of the same genetic material but they also produce amylase in their pancreas to digest starch and grain. Wolves do not. Dogs are scavengers. As such they function as omnivores, since they can go a very long time without meat in their diet. They evolved alongside us Humans living off our garbage. 

Anyway. These happen to be my researched beliefs. I have many many dog nutrition books on my shelves. 
I was about where you are on your dog food journey about 5 years ago. I would spend days, weeks! Trying to find the answer. What's the truth? What are they supposed to eat, really? Am I killing my dogs by feeding x? Should I feed y instead?? I worried, had sleepless nights, spent hours and hours on dog forums, and annoyed my poor husband! 

On poop, have you ever been constipated? On PMR we had several cases of the "screaming poops". I don't think it was very comfortable passing such small hard poo. Same thing when I get too low carb. No fun in the loo! Lol 

I have fed kibble (many, many brands), canned (as topper and full diet, many brands), raw (Volhard, barf, PMR, ala Lew Olsen, ala Monica Segal, ala Juliette deBairclay Levy), premixes (sojos, honest kitchen, k9karma, urban wolf), dehydrated (honest kitchen, addiction, sojos), home cooked (strombeck, Monica Segal) and back round to kibble with home cooked toppers, and back round to kibble with canned. I didn't see much difference in my dogs at all with the exception of one. PMR. I've already stated the issues we experienced with that. 

My first two dogs were fed about 80% raw in some way or another. One died at 14 and the other at 13. I was fully expecting them to live well into their teens and be sprightly and young and healthy. You can't fight genetics. My third dog which just passed a month ago was fed mostly kibble with some sort of topper and she was my longest lived until cancer got her. You do the best you can with what you have , and enjoy them no matter what food goes in their bellies. 

Try not to worry or justify so much. Go try PMR and see how your dogs do. Otherwise keep doing what you're doing (because they're feeling and looking good) and go enjoy your dogs.

ETA: DO I believe dogs should be fed gobs and gobs of grain? Nope! Anything more than 50% is too much for my liking, and I adjust accordingly, even feeding kibble, canned and toppers. 
Will I go back to a more natural diet? Probably. I have to see where life takes me. Up until Darby passed, things were hectic. Things will be on the downswing with kids' activities slowing down, so I likely will have time for monkeying around with food more. 
However, that said my guys are all doing great on their current regimen.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

And, bottom line, whichever way you choose to feed (can be lots, dogs thrive on all sorts of things), listen to the dog. Dog gets the last word!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> and go enjoy your dogs


I_ do_ enjoy my dogs. Why would I not? LOL. 

My dogs are not generally constipated or have difficulty pooping. It plops right on outta there. lol. Like I said before, occasionally, if I make a mistake in their ratios, they'll have a little issue but it's resolved usually the next meal. 

Like I've said, I have looked at commercial food, what they put into it, how they do the bear minimum, how many recalls occur because of skimping, how they've labeled it one way but it turns out to be untrue, how over processed it is and I made the decision to feed unprocessed, whole fresh food to my dogs and they're doing better than ever on it. I don't care how other people feed their dogs. I fed my dogs kibble for years. I just like reading things and seeing what I can find out. I studied evolution for a long time some years ago. I wanted to include aspects of that into my book I was writing. So I found out then how very different wolves and dogs are behaviorally, but in many other ways, the same or practically the same, such as with the digestion process. 





> However much, we humans have done to tinker with and change the dog's body design (resulting in varying sizes and conformations), we have done nothing to change the internal anatomy and physiology of our carnivorous canines. "Dogs have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore"
> (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.).
> They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum
> (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.).
> ...


Dogs Are Carnivores



Anyhow, I believe there is a very strong bias in dogs to being a carnivore, not an omnivore. There are just too many physiological and anatomical reasons why. If you put a handful of chunks of fresh, raw lamb in a little pile and a handful of vegetables in another pile separated by several feet, which pile will your dog go to first? 

I think some added fiber can do a dog good be it hair or vegetables that we break down. For now, I think I'll keep doing what I've been doing....just a little undigestible vegetable matter. I'll tell you when I take a small amount of hair from grooming and sprinkle it in their food. lol. Then it may look more like the coyote poo I see around here which is rather small, dark, firm and with hair in it.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

You should know, I do not disagree with you at all. 

I just currently happen to feed kibble with extras at the moment.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh I just find this stuff very interesting. I fed my dogs kibble all these years until recently. There is a controversy as to whether dogs are omnivores or carnivores. And I understand why people think they're omnivores or not obligate carnivores...since they can get by with cereals and vegetables. I just don't think that it's an entirely natural or necessary thing for them. Anyhow, having fed kibble and canned all these years, I know how much easier it is. And too, some are better than others, of course. So, I'm not a complete fanatic about it. But I enjoy feeding this way, the dogs are doing fantastically and I have the time to prepare it. Granted, it does take more time and more planning, shopping, chopping, bagging etc. You know how that goes.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I really have to hand it to all you who put a lot of extra work into Raw diets. It's not easy. 

My American Eskimo lived on supermarket brands for 18 years before her demise. I guess that's genetics. But there's no doubt that food high in protein is great for a dog.

I'd like to know what the average daily requirements of a dog are, including vitamins minerals, etc. Does anyone have this info?

I went thru tons of reading on chicken nutrition. (I'm a moderator in a highly anal chicken group). The layer crumbles are mostly corn. So I supplemented oats. Then I supplemented scratch (corn , barley, ?) and they did better with weight. Go figure. I upped their protein . They had better weight and more eggs. I add nutritional yeast because B vitamins are good for them. This and more is all from 9 years of reading everything available about chickens. Chickens need the corn carbs. Go figure. Also good is leftovers, garden greens and bugs and worms. Okay enough chicken. Just a contrast.

Are dogs related to coyotes? Dingos? 

Has anyone looked into Ketones/ketosis/ketoacidosis? If you dipstick your dog's urine while on a raw diet, would the ketones be in a safe range?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I really have to hand it to all you who put a lot of extra work into Raw diets. It's not easy.
> 
> My American Eskimo lived on supermarket brands for 18 years before her demise. I guess that's genetics. But there's no doubt that food high in protein is great for a dog.
> 
> ...



Whenever I find myself getting a little too obsessive about dog nutrition, I think back to my childhood dogs who also lived until their lates teens eating ganesburgers and milkbones - I have heard the same from many others. Makes you think that it might have nothing at all to do with nutrition, doesn't it....


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I really have to hand it to all you who put a lot of extra work into Raw diets. It's not easy.
> 
> My American Eskimo lived on supermarket brands for 18 years before her demise. I guess that's genetics. But there's no doubt that food high in protein is great for a dog.
> 
> ...



Chickens are a whole nuther animal...completely different dietary needs from a dog's. I don't see any comparative aspect of the two animals' diets. Dogs are suppose to have lots of meat and grain isn't a natural thing for them, though they have adapted through a convergent evolution to have a little more ability to digest grain than they did, though still not amply enough because they have no salivary amylase and no grinding ability and a whole bunch of other reasons described in previous posts. 

I don't know about ketones with dogs but I think it's safe to say that how they've evolved over thousands of years from wolves... to be the most successful mammal in those evolutionary terms, on what they ate (meat, bone, organ...most parts (not all) of a prey animal) is a healthy diet. Again, dogs digestive physiology is identical to a wolves. (with some small exceptions such as teeth and jaws being smaller) So we compensate for that. My tiny Poodles eat tiny bones and tiny chunks of meat, not great big hunks or big bones.


Dogs are related to coyotes and Dingos, jackals, foxes and many others, including some extinct animals. These carnivorans are of the biological family classification, Canidae. Your dog, a dingo or any of this family is called a canid. 

How they classify:


Class: Mammalia
Order:	Carnivora
Suborder:	Caniformia
Family:	Canidae



Here's some more detail if you like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canidae





> I really have to hand it to all you who put a lot of extra work into Raw diets. It's not easy.


It started out for me to be rather difficult and a little spooky. But it's become pretty easy now that I'm use to it. I always fed kibble up till recently. My childhood dogs lived to be 18 and 15. My son's dog is 16 and on TOTW. Most of my dogs lived fairly good life spans. The childhood dogs ate Purina and Gravy Train. I am not only interested in longevity but healthy longevity. I think many of the allergies and other deficiencies in dogs are related to diet, just as they are in humans. Maybe some things aren't apparent right off. Maybe they would live even longer if on a healthier diet. I've heard that these foods we use to feed in the past, like Purina have declined over the years. I don't know for a fact. I think some of the premium foods might be better than many, probably_ are _better. But I can't be sure. I don't see them making the food. I've seen and read horror stories, seen multitudes of recalls and I just don't trust the big food companies anymore. I like feeding fresh, unprocessed, whole food just like it's better for humans to eat unprocessed food. We have to cook our meat of course to be safe. Dogs never did cook their meat and it does destroy a lot of the nutrients. So, yes, I am happy with my choice. My dogs are doing well and I do have the time to prepare it and to research it. It is rather interesting to me, just as I'm interested in human nutrition. I'm always reading about discoveries about this and that. Fascinating stuff. lol.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

It's very fascinating. For my son and myself, we have had various food allergies (he's outgrown his, phew) and intolerances (my major issue right now). I think my issues were brought on by almost 2 decades of undiagnosed Lyme Disease, but anyway, it's been a real challenge. 
I am SO tired of making everything from scratch. Not being able to go out to eat (well I do, but there are consequences!), heck, a bowl of cereal will do me in, and let's not even talk about pizza. Home cooked, all the time. prepare, cook, clean kitchen repeat 3x a day! Blah.

This is why I've settled on commercial for the dogs. I use Fromm dry and cans, and sometime Precise, and also Wegmans organic canned. Though I see Fromm had a recall on canned, but not the ones I am feeding. You just never know. People food can have recalls too. I have gotten Costco's 7 layer dip twice now, and received postcards in the mail that they are recalled for Listeria, weeks after they were eaten! 
Blah.

We should just eat air  Scary no matter what species you are.


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## ancientman (Nov 5, 2015)

Bears, Skunks, Raccoons are omnivore. These animals can survive with vegan diet or meat only diet both.

Wolves, Hyenas, Dogs are carnivore. Period. They are just scavengers so they are able to digest grain,plants,starch...whatever leftover remaining...


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## mamalion (Aug 8, 2014)

Far be it from me to get into a food fight, but I just look at what my dogs have been eager to eat. Yes, most of them like meat (though I have a few anti-liver types), all of them like pieces of apples, carrots to gnaw on, potatoes or bread (better with butter), cheese (how unnatural), berries, and rice (though not the current dog). 

Given the omnivorous nature of what my fussy babies eat, I think I can safely say that mine are omnivorous, evolved to be more like a fox or raccoon than a wolf. I just wish they weren't so omnivorous. I don't eat grapes and raisins in the house for fear of dropping them. Years ago, my Maltese went to a great deal of trouble to get a chocolate bar, but he was the only one particularly interested in chocolate.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Chickens are a whole nuther animal...completely different dietary needs from a dog's. I don't see any comparative aspect of the two animals' diets. Dogs are suppose to have lots of meat and grain isn't a natural thing for them, though they have adapted through a convergent evolution to have a little more ability to digest grain than they did, though still not amply enough because they have no salivary amylase and no grinding ability and a whole bunch of other reasons described in previous posts.
> 
> I don't know about ketones with dogs but I think it's safe to say that how they've evolved over thousands of years from wolves... to be the most successful mammal in those evolutionary terms, on what they ate (meat, bone, organ...most parts (not all) of a prey animal) is a healthy diet. Again, dogs digestive physiology is identical to a wolves. (with some small exceptions such as teeth and jaws being smaller) So we compensate for that. My tiny Poodles eat tiny bones and tiny chunks of meat, not great big hunks or big bones.
> ****************************************************
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> Poodlebeguiled said:
> 
> 
> > Chickens are a whole nuther animal...completely different dietary needs from a dog's. I don't see any comparative aspect of the two animals' diets. Dogs are suppose to have lots of meat and grain isn't a natural thing for them, though they have adapted through a convergent evolution to have a little more ability to digest grain than they did, though still not amply enough because they have no salivary amylase and no grinding ability and a whole bunch of other reasons described in previous posts.
> ...


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Chickens do eat meat. Bugs and worms are one source but my chickens catch mice, salamanders, snakes and happily eat them. Chickens are not vegetarians whatsoever. That was a myth started by egg companies since people (consumers) decided everything was better off vegetarian fed. Chicken feed nowadays is vegetarian, which frustrates me to no end... They are omnivores! 

I supplement their diet with meal worms and ground meat and their feather quality, weight, and egg quality and quantity increases. 

As for dogs. I've heard this debated for years now I don't think we will get anyone to agree however, I personally feel that are omnivores much like foxes and bears (dogs share 92% DNA with Bears). 
Should they eat mostly grains, starch and veggies? Probably not. But they can and do!  

Speaking of DNA, we share 99% with chimpanzees, is this the model for diet we humans should follow? So many rabbit holes on this topic, and fascinating to explore!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh yeah! I forgot about bugs and grubs. I even fed my wild birds meal worms. lol. Okay, but cows?


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

That is funny. Before all that mad cow stuff, chicken feed did have meat by products in it. They do eat meat. Some of my chickens found a nest of baby rats and swallowed them whole . (Blech).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh gross Semiole! Rats? Eewwwww! :ahhhhh:


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

This is a really interesting discussion. Thanks!

I don't buy the argument that dogs are somehow domesticated wolves and therefore require a sort of paleo diet based upon that belief. I think, just as humans and other primates have a shared ancestor, so dogs and wolves have a shared ancestor. Close similarities to be sure, but dogs are dogs and wolves are wolves. Had they not diverged from the ancient common ancestor over ages of evolution, then we would not have dogs, we would have wolves or perhaps wolves and some other related species. But we have dogs - and they evolved alongside humans, scavenging for food from human garbage and foods and this dietary variety may have contributed to their fitness and success.
Dogs have evolved to be primarily carnivorous but also omnivorous in some respects - and it makes sense that this may in fact be one of the keys to their amazing success as a species.

Like Shamrockmommy, I noticed a change in Dulcie's behavior when I had her on a prey model raw diet. She began to exhibit determined scavenging behavior which was really marked and had not been evident before. She was frantic to scavenge in garbage on the street and especially bread, vegetable matter and so forth that she would find along the gutters and near garbage bins in alleys. She would pull me hard when walking - it was a drive I had never seen before with her and her focus was so strong on this behavior that her usual interest in her surroundings was eclipsed by this clear need.

I decided to reintroduce a small amount of vegetable/fruit matter to her diet and within a day or two the scavenging behavior disappeared again. I am convinced that, at least for my individual dog, a small amount of vegetable/fruit in the diet is crucial to her overall health.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That's interesting Nifty about Dulcie's desperate scavenging behavior. Jose`'s always done that. lol. He's obsessed, always has been. But I haven't noticed anything like that with the Poodles when I haven't fed vegetables. 

Yes, according to my research into evolution, dogs and wolves probably do have a common ancestor. But what probably made dogs look like dogs is probably due to tameness. As the wolves could eat in nearer proximity to humans got braver, they evolved to have smaller heads, jaws, teeth, curled tails, white in their fur, drop ears and more docile. These physical changes happen when docility happens. It may be the result of a piggy back gene or some other factors. (long story) So, what is thought to have produced the look of a proto dog is due to tameness...and subsequently our dogs as humans selected for all this variation. The one thing that is the same as wolves is their internal digestive anatomy and workings with the exception that they have a little more of the enzyme necessary to break down carbohydrates in the pancreas which isn't very effective because it's almost on it's way out by that time and puts an added strain on the pancreas according to some researcher's. So apparently they evolved to have_ some _ability to digest grains etc. Whether or not that means that grains/vegetables are a necessary or healthy thing for them, I'm not sure. The jury seems to be out still on that one. 

http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/early-canid-domestication-the-farm-fox-experiment

If you like this stuff, here's a good read: [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Dogs-Understanding-Canine-Behavior-Evolution/dp/0226115631[/ame] (might have a few holes in the theory, but nonetheless, very good and interesting)

But you're absolutely right. If you notice better response from your dog with the inclusion of grains, vegetables and fruit, then who am I to argue? I am a little on the fence, as I've repeated many times here. LOL. I do think a little pre-broken down vegetation (NOT GRAIN) seems to make their poop a little more consistent and nice. Soooooooooo nice poop. lol. So I think the fiber is probably a good thing even if they can't absorb most of the vitamins and minerals from plant material. Even humans, I read need to eat loads of vegetables if they're raw to get_ some _of the vitamins out. Vegetable cell walls are VERY hard.

Did you read the quotes and links? How dog's have a very short intestine, thereby making the contents move quickly through....not leaving enough time for necessary fermentation of vegetables? All this and more is how they are identical to wolves and other carnivores. 

I always chalk it up as carnivorous in their digestive mechanism/metabolism, their teeth and jaws the same, but smaller versions...and omnivorous in their behavior. They can get by on cereal...obviously after 70 years or so of eating commercial food. But does that mean it's the best thing for them? What did dogs eat before thousands of years ago before the agricultural period? I bet chicken mostly. lol. The agricultural period shows archaeologists when humans started getting arthritis and toot decay. Before that, when man was a hunter gatherer, it was practically non existent. 

So, keep on feeding those veggies. I'm about to steam a little bit of collard greens, spinach, carrots, zucchini and put in some pumpkin, maybe a little broccoli if I have some and liquefy it into mooch. And only give 1/2 tsp to each dog...maybe 1 tsp for Jose`. I'm still in the experimental stage. I'm going to be comparing poop with and without. lol. And keep on reading things.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I have always thought of dogs as scavengers or opportunists. Going by the typical dog that has lived on the streets un-owned. 

I do still think that a diet of 50% fat and 50% protein is not the best. 30/30/30% I think would be the lower limit of what I would want to feed. I don't think dogs need the carbs, per se, but there are vitamins and minerals that dogs need that come by veggies or fruit or some complex carbs. Given a vitamin pill is not the same to me. 

What foods supply vitamins A, B complex , C, D, E,Calcium and Phosphorus, potassium, sodium, and chloride? Fiber? Or do dogs manufacture these things themselves? There's also protein that should be from more than one source because different amino acids are required for different things. 

That's my question because I wish meat would supply that all or eventually the deficits will catch up with the dog's health. I still know that protein and fat from meat is super duper important and kibble companies have been cheating dogs out of this with the use of corn and filler.

The other curiosity I have is what are by-products specifically? Are any of those meat byproducts the same as the ones that are part of a healthy raw diet?

I just want info and clarification. I know very little about the DMR's of canines and for some reason I find them hidden and very hard to find on line.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

seminolewind said:


> That is funny. Before all that mad cow stuff, chicken feed did have meat by products in it. They do eat meat. Some of my chickens found a nest of baby rats and swallowed them whole . (Blech).





Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh gross Semiole! Rats? Eewwwww! :ahhhhh:


Those were my thoughts exactly. Yuk. I tossed the eggs. And they carry round worms and possible capillaria.. I filled this varmint hole with water and 5 babies floated to the surface. 

Now I have maintenance by way of bait stations and covering all the food at night so there is none available. So what do the rats do? They live with the neighbor who never cleans the grain up. And I found out yesterday that they have been having a party in my shed that's 50 feet from their chicken coop. I will win this. But it's a maintenance. The other thing outside is giant Florida cockroaches . The chickens eat some of them. That's fine. I don't think about it. I actually shot a rat in the b-alls one time and killed him. That was a good shot.


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Just want to clarify that I did not say I notice improvement with GRAIN - I add a little vegetable/fruit puree to one meal per day (about 1/4 cup of HK base mix, mixed with hot water and rehydrated for at least 5 minutes).

Yes, I read your links and have also done a great deal of reading on this subject myself.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I have always thought of dogs as scavengers or opportunists. Going by the typical dog that has lived on the streets un-owned.
> 
> I do still think that a diet of 50% fat and 50% protein is not the best. 30/30/30% I think would be the lower limit of what I would want to feed. I don't think dogs need the carbs, per se, but there are vitamins and minerals that dogs need that come by veggies or fruit or some complex carbs. Given a vitamin pill is not the same to me.
> 
> ...


They definitely are and have been opportunistic scavengers, more so than they were hunters. They may have gotten into farmers chickens or rabbits. How many dogs do we see grazing in corn or wheat fields, vegetable gardens? (maybe a little bit) I had a dog dig up carrots in mine when he saw me getting a carrot for my horse. Given a choice, I think dogs will always head straight for the animal products first. 

There are indeed vitamins in vegetables. The problem is, they can't utilize them very well...can't extract them because they're not broken down by *salivary* amylase (which they have none of, as carnivores don't) in time to be able to pass through the intestinal wall and picked up by the tiny capillaries there into the blood stream.

I posted a link about what vitamins/minerals come from what. Did you miss that? Here it is again. https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/raw-diets-for-dogs-getting-enough-vitamins-and-minerals/ You'll see that their vitamins and minerals are all found in various meats and fish.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I think I've missed everyone's links-I've been so busy just catching up on posts. Just keep shoving them at me. I am clueless, LOL


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Seminolewind - this is a good site for information on dogs' nutritional needs, diets, food composition, etc: DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I feel at this point we are very ignorant about dog and human nutrition. A few years ago it was eat mainly carbs, then low fat and now it seems to have switched to low carb and high fat. I prefer a moderate road. I feed my dog raw with a few veggies ground in. By the look of his poop I don't think they are well digested but rather safe than sorry.


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## Arya's Toys (Feb 24, 2016)

While I don't give my 2 TPoos anything yet, other than puppy food, my Shih Tzu loved carrots, & she would eat about 1 whole carrot a week starting from about 10 weeks of age. Once they would break off into smaller pieces, she would munch on them, great for teething, I thought.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I feel at this point we are very ignorant about dog and human nutrition. A few years ago it was eat mainly carbs, then low fat and now it seems to have switched to low carb and high fat. I prefer a moderate road. I feed my dog raw with a few veggies ground in. By the look of his poop I don't think they are well digested but rather safe than sorry.


I think it's harder to know what humans health needs are in relation to food than it is for dogs because humans observe wild dogs of various types, feral dogs, wolves, all kinds of canines eating and they can see what they eat. They can look at their digestive tract, their internal organs, the enzymes and acids and see what those things do. They can observe for one thing that dogs don't graze on vegetation like a cow or horse. They watch their digestive process in labs as they study these things. So, I think if they're comparing apples to apples, for instance, if we're not leaving anything out of a home made diet, that they would naturally eat, then they should be fine. 

Our dogs are not wild dogs, nor are they wolves. But it has been concluded through study and comparison that their digestive systems haven't changed much at all, except for a little more ability to digest grain, which must have come through evolution. But that's all done via the pancreas, not further up, which may put a strain on the pancreas. So physically, they are still a carnivore and for all intents and purposes, so are they metabolically. So my idea is that while they do eat a little bit of various things, while they can digest grains and vegetation to a degree, it may not only be unnecessary, but might put too much burden on the pancreas. But of course, there's always more study to be done and to see who is putting the information out. That's always tricky. I'm still giving a tiny bit of what I hope is adequately broken down (still not broken down with salivary amylase though) vegetables...a tiny bit and that is because they're not eating hair or feathers as they would in the woods. 

We say yes, but dogs natural place IS with humans. And so it is. Nothing out in the woods is natural to domestic dogs anymore. EXCEPT for how their digestion works. That's the clincher for me. So until I learn more, I too, to feel like I'm covering all the bases will give a very small amount of vegetables as fiber. The vitamins and minerals are covered with the large variety of meat, bones, organ etc they get.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I think it's harder to know what humans health needs are in relation to food than it is for dogs because humans observe wild dogs of various types, feral dogs, wolves, all kinds of canines eating and they can see what they eat. They can look at their digestive tract, their internal organs, the enzymes and acids and see what those things do. They can observe for one thing that dogs don't graze on vegetation like a cow or horse. They watch their digestive process in labs as they study these things. So, I think if they're comparing apples to apples, for instance, if we're not leaving anything out of a home made diet, that they would naturally eat, then they should be fine.
> 
> Our dogs are not wild dogs, nor are they wolves. But it has been concluded through study and comparison that their digestive systems haven't changed much at all, except for a little more ability to digest grain, which must have come through evolution. But that's all done via the pancreas, not further up, which may put a strain on the pancreas. So physically, they are still a carnivore and for all intents and purposes, so are they metabolically. So my idea is that while they do eat a little bit of various things, while they can digest grains and vegetation to a degree, it may not only be unnecessary, but might put too much burden on the pancreas. But of course, there's always more study to be done and to see who is putting the information out. That's always tricky. I'm still giving a tiny bit of what I hope is adequately broken down (still not broken down with salivary amylase though) vegetables...a tiny bit and that is because they're not eating hair or feathers as they would in the woods.
> 
> We say yes, but dogs natural place IS with humans. And so it is. Nothing out in the woods is natural to domestic dogs anymore. EXCEPT for how their digestion works. That's the clincher for me. So until I learn more, I too, to feel like I'm covering all the bases will give a very small amount of vegetables as fiber. The vitamins and minerals are covered with the large variety of meat, bones, organ etc they get.


Yes, it sounds like we are doing exactly the same thing. Swizzle gets a very small amount of vegetables, on occasion, such a small amount I doubt it would put any strain on the pancreas. I don't give him any grain.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

There are many "experts" out there and each has their opinion published. I've always felt that moderation was the key. I think that eliminating cereal grains was a giant step in the right direction. Too many carbs, not enough protein.

The way I see these things is that fat is used for storage. If needed for energy, it's converted to glucose to be used. However , the utilization of fat loads the blood with acidity. 

Protein is basically used for replacing vital tissues in the body. However it requires enzymes to do it's job. Enzymes will only work in a particular range of PH. If this range gets too acidic from using fat as energy, the PH gets more acidic and enzymes will not work to facilitate the utilization of protein.. Carbs are a fast energy ingredient. Too much carbs get store as fat. It can be reconverted to be used as a carb.

Carbs are direct energy. It all boils down to a certain type of glucose that the cells use. Even if carbs are too high, the enzymes will not facilitate protein.

The three are intertwined to work properly. In the past, poor carbs were way too high in dog food (not exclusively) . Good carbs in the correct amount are necessary for the right environment for enzymes to facilitate protein. We need fat for warmth and necessary calories to survive when glucose is unavailable.

That is a simpler way of describing what individual cells require. The end product used in cells is called ATP. There is no other item that can take it's place for cells to survive. It can be made from protein or fat, but there are consequences if used without carbs for a long time.

In the past, dog food has been around 80% carbs/ 10% protein/10% fat, which is really awful and unhealthy for a dog. Now most Good dog foods are more like 30/30/30. There has to be a balance of the three for the ultimate environment for health. It may not be 30/30/30, but it's not too far from these percentages. 

Anyone can agree or disagree with this. Living beings have to feed their cells or bad things happen. Quality of these things have a totally really big impact on what you offer the cells to use. It appears that meat and bones are an extremely high quality protein and fat. Good fat is superior to bad fat and good carbs are superior to bad carbs, etc. Fresh is superior to processed. But my feeling is that all warm blooded animals, including humans and wolves require fat for warmth, carbs for energy, and protein for renewal of tissues. Proteins require enzymes to work. Enzymes require a particular PH to work. Carbs are needed to provide that PH. All 3 are converted to a type of sugar that creates ATP which is the food for cells. Too few or too many carbs have detrimental consequences.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That's very interesting how things work. And things work differently in various species. According to everything I've read, dogs and wolves aren't able to break down plants and grains and those kinds of carbs are useless other than to act as non-digestible fiber. (which may be good) Wolves are seen eating a scanty amount of berries or grass sometimes. We all know how our dogs like a lot of those things. Mine use to love my raspberry plants. I'd go out and pick them and the dogs would help. They're sweet and a fun snack. But as far as a main food source, dogs and wolves aren't seen grazing in a field of green beans, peas, beets, spinach, corn, wheat, rye, oats and so on. You don't see them digging up a potato field or spending hours upon hours searching for berries unless perhaps there's nothing else available.

My bottom line for this is that dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates. They _can_ eat them, digest them* IF* they're adequately broken down. But they get everything they need from meat, bone, organs as in a ancestral or prey model diet. Commercial food has way too much carb imo. And I think it's the source of many of the health ailments we see, such as itchy, dry skin, allergies, tooth decay and all the problems that come from that....and more. Processing robs some (more or less) essential nutrients from food and synthetic has to be put back in which imo isn't very good. 

I've probably already posted some of these. But no time to go back and check. There are good explanations here in these links. And some good sources. 


Dogs and Carbohydrates - A Surprising Secret Revealed

Myths About Raw: Do dogs really need carbohydrates?

Why Your Dog Needs More Meat (and fewer carbohydrates) - Dogs Naturally Magazine

Carbohydrates and Your Dog's Digestive System | Whole Dog Journal


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Hi. It's not like I don't agree with you about canine nutrition. And I very much agree that dogs need higher protein and fat. And meat is the best source for protein, and you can't get any better than that.

And even tho the best dog foods almost come close to balancing the three and using better sources for carbs, after all these years their researchers have finally realized that. (what a surprise!) I think fresh meat is the best source for protein and certainly should be a part of a dog's diet. But I really do thing that carbs are needed to balance the diet. I'm really glad that people like you have done the research. : ) . It's refreshing to read all perspectives.

I will be reading your posted links to information.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Let me know what you think after you read those things. I see coyote poop often when we got for hikes or walks. It's very dark, almost black, small, compact, firm and has an outer coating of hair. This is what my dogs' poop looks like minus the hair. lol.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Ewwww. Hair?
The articles are really good. I agree that fresh protein and fat is best. And carbs were/are too high even now in dog foods. I wonder if their digestion processes a heavy meat/fat diet differently and what the differences are.?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yep...hair. Hair is on rabbits and deer and most prey that wolves and wild dogs eat and our dogs' digestive processes are very nearly identical. I don't think they eat hair on purpose. They just get a little when they tear apart an animal. It's in coyote poo most anytime I come across it. Dogs eat most of their prey...muscle meat, fat, organs, glands, some bone, sometimes stomach lining and some contents if it's a small animal, typically not if it's a large animal, according to David Mech, leading wolf expert.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread and read the links I posted, especially the one called The Great Debate explains just how different they process food from how we do.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Wow this thread can go on forever, can't it.
You know what I have always wondered - why is it that the dogs of my childhood who lived on Gaines Burgers, Mighty Dog, Milkbones, and table scraps all lived 18, 19, 20 years, while my dogs as an adult, beneficiaries of all of the advancements in Canine nutrition have lived 12, 13, and next month 14 years?
I do not think that I am the only one who has made this observation.
Maybe it has nothing at all to do with diet. But when you find yourself obsessing too much about diet, just remember that none of the "advancements" in the past 25 years has done a thing to extend canine lifespan - to this point, all of our efforts have had the precise opposite effect.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Gaines Burgers and milk bones? That brings back memories of my mother and her dogs. 

Yes this discussion can go on forever , possibly because there has not been enough research to answer all the questions. 

I'd like to share this article , which is more along the lines of my non-research scientist 
beliefs. In the Dog 'Zone' - Best Canine Nutrition | Whole Dog Journal

Now I got to go read The Debate.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

I didn't do a lot of stuff that so many owners of today are doing, and most of my dogs lived to 15 to 16 ( Skipper was 16 years and 2 weeks). Of course, I would have loved for them to have lived another 3 to 4 years, but I tend to go by statistics when it comes to the lifespan of a dog. My dogs got mostly Purina Dog Chow, with a change every so often. But sometime around 2003 or 2004, someone from the AOL dog message boards got me interested in Wellness and Wellness Core. She raved about it so much that I had to try it for Trina and Kaydee. And sure enough, they loved it!


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