# Osea, Wycliffe, Graphic Lines??



## MoJoMama

I'm starting to see trends now and I'm recognizing certain line names here and there. I looked at this breeder, and I see a lot of CH's among other letters, which is GOOD, right? Can anyone give me your opinions on the pedigrees for the puppies in this current litter ? Also, look at their extensive vaccination protocol.... she's definitely done her research and is passionate about her beliefs, but I've never seen anything like it... YET!! Any thoughts??

Bird Patch

Also, at what age would you say it's time for a STUD to retire?


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## Cdnjennga

I would say pedigrees are only part of the story. That's great that these dogs come from well known, championed parents but what is it about these particular dogs that makes them of a quality to breed?

As for the stud, IMO, as long as he is still able to perform and able to produce good sized litters then he can still be used. It's not like it takes a toll on him in the same way as it does on the dam.


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## MoJoMama

Cdnjennga said:


> I would say pedigrees are only part of the story. That's great that these dogs come from well known, championed parents but what is it about these particular dogs that makes them of a quality to breed?



I want to make sure I understand what you are asking... Why should these two dogs breed if they are not titled themselves? Is that correct?? Very good point... Why have they not proven themselves, right? 

I've seen people on here give opinions as to names behind a puppy, in regards to great breeding practices vs. sketchy beliefs, etc. As you know, my #1 concern right now is health, so that's what I was looking at initially.... plus I found their vaccine protocol very interesting. Has anyone had any experience with something like this? 

"Through much research and study, our kennel has developed a vaccine protocol that is intended to minimize the occurrence of autoimmune disorders so common to the standard poodle breed.

Given the increase in PARVO outbreak our vaccine protocol has changed dramatically. We now use ONLY NEOTECH products for initial PUPPY immunizations. After experiencing PARVO first-hand and witnessing the devastation that can follow - even on younger pups that in "theory" are protected with their Mama's immunity, we now begin NEOPAR vaccinations at 5 weeks old. NEOPAR is the ONLY vaccine available that is safe to use on puppies as young as 28 days old and is able to override mother's immunity received through her milk. NEOPAR is followed, beginning at 9 weeks of age with NEOVAC, a Distemper/Adenovirus vaccine. This vaccine regime' provides the pup with all the core vaccines necessary up to his/her Rabies & 1 year booster. NO OTHER vaccines (i.e. "Corona", "Lepto" , etc.) are to be administered unless deemed necessary (i.e. Kennel Cough).

When the pups reached a year of age and is ready for his/her booster vaccination, only CONTINUUM is to be used. This is a 3-year "core" vaccine formulated with "killed" virus. No other vaccines will be necessary for a full 36 months. This protocol is to be exactly followed and completed by the buyer. Failure to adhere to our strict schedule, or brand/type recommendation will result in the GENETIC HEALTH GUARANTEE portion of this contract becoming immediately null and void."

Seems somewhat restrictive, yet she certainly believes strongly in it!


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## bigpoodleperson

I dont really "get" her vaccine protocol. For one, i have Never heard of these brands. Another is that it completely overrides all the research and experts. The vaccine is not sopost to "override" a mothers protection. It is sopost to challange it at certain times, and to also step in when the mothers is finally done. There has been NO link to any vaccines or protocols to prevent auto-immune diseases. Personally, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but i havnt thouroughly looked at the vaccine link (plus it is very late here, so further thoughts later )..


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## SECRETO

As for the stud dog question, they can be used for a good period of time. Even after a stud dog has passed its not uncommon for breeders to continue using the studs collected semen that is stored.


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## SECRETO

I think given the health concern she faced with her litter previously, she has reason to have many concerns and a strict protocol for vacinations. There are actually more breeders then people realize that dont even believe in vacinating due to there own dramatic experiences. I would guess that this lady has done some extensive research due to the horror that puppy went through and for that has her own beliefs and conditions. 

Also, in my opinion I dont have a problem with people breeding non champion dogs. Just because a dog has a Ch on the beginning of its name doesnt mean its of breeding quality. Lots of dogs get championed that shouldnt be. If you put a handler on a dog for long enough it eventually get points and ch. Even the owner/handler can do it eventually if they hit enough of the right show's and know what the judge likes. Ive been around to see it happen...unaffortunately!) Another thing, many breeders have a brood bitch/stud dog in there yard that hasnt been shown for one reason or another that's part of the breeding program. I myself, would base my sole decision on the dogs not being CH. 

My main concern would be the health testing. The dogs over all look healthy, well cared for and balanced. If she has the records to back up the health testing and you like her dogs then chat with her more and get to know the breeder. Thats just my opinion...


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## cbrand

While her dogs have better pedigrees than most (i.e finished dogs closer up) she pretty much seems like a BYB to me. What does she do with her dogs other than breed? 

She has her own untitled stud dogs (cheaper than shipping a bitch and buying stud service from a Champion stud dog) and she is breeding them to her own untitled bitches. Is this really the very best breeding a breeder can do?

She has done a nice job of picking up dogs and bitches that have slipped through the cracks of established breeding programs. However, some of these dogs come from programs that have, as we say, crossed to the dark side. hwell: 

Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place. Same goes for the Osea folks. They were a well established, well respected kennel but lately I've seen their dogs showing up more and more in very questionable, high volume breeding programs. I even contacted them once to ask them if they knew that a puppy mill here in Colorado was advertising that they were breeding Osea lines, but I never heard back from them. Maybe they just aren't careful where their dogs go, but it does not speak well of them.

Other things that make me go :doh: The Osea bitch was bred for the 1st time at age 14 months. I don't see any testing listed for her even though the current litter on the ground is the 2nd for her.

I love that she describes Demi as being a "rare" grey that is not blue and not true black. Yah... we call that a bad black. :rolffleyes:

The whole vaccine protocol is a bit of a run around. They had Parvo and they probably lost puppies which is why they use Neopar. Most good Poodle breeders are using Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol which calls for not giving any vaccines until at least 8 weeks and preferably later. Personally I give all my own Parvo/Distemper shots so that I can use a vaccine that is only Parvo/Distemper and not one that is bundled with Cornona et al. I don't like the fact that she will negate your guarantee if you don't use her special vaccine. What are you going to do if your vet can't or won't get that particular vaccine?

Assuming that her dogs are fully tested, could you do worse? Sure. There are some things to recommend her dogs. However, I don't think this woman really knows very much about poodles. I wonder for example if she knows that the Osea bitch's grandfather was on thyroid meds? (I know because I talked to his owner because I considered using Charlie.) 

She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.


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## MoJoMama

cbrand said:


> Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place. Same goes for the Osea folks. They were a well established, well respected kennel but lately I've seen their dogs showing up more and more in very questionable, high volume breeding programs. I even contacted them once to ask them if they knew that a puppy mill here in Colorado was advertising that they were breeding Osea lines, but I never heard back from them. Maybe they just aren't careful where their dogs go, but it does not speak well of them.
> 
> Other things that make me go :doh: The Osea bitch was bred for the 1st time at age 14 months. I don't see any testing listed for her even though the current litter on the ground is the 2nd for her.
> 
> I love that she describes Demi as being a "rare" grey that is not blue and not true black. Yah... we call that a bad black. :rolffleyes:
> 
> The whole vaccine protocol is a bit of a run around. They had Parvo and they probably lost puppies which is why they use Neopar. Most good Poodle breeders are using Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol which calls for not giving any vaccines until at least 8 weeks and preferably later. Personally I give all my own Parvo/Distemper shots so that I can use a vaccine that is only Parvo/Distemper and not one that is bundled with Cornona et al. I don't like the fact that she will negate your guarantee if you don't use her special vaccine. What are you going to do if your vet can't or won't get that particular vaccine?
> 
> Assuming that her dogs are fully tested, could you do worse? Sure. There are some things to recommend her dogs. However, I don't think this woman really knows very much about poodles. I wonder for example if she knows that the Osea bitch's grandfather was on thyroid meds? (I know because I talked to his owner because I considered using Charlie.)
> 
> She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.


I can't figure out how to Multi-Quote, but you guys have given a lot of information! 

"Yah... we call that a bad black." This made me laugh outloud! I did notice that the bitch was bred last year at a young age. I too had trouble finding health tests and if I do look into speaking with her, you know that would be top on my list of requirements from both parents. I was confused because I saw that she was PennHIP .40 %... I thought it was either .4 or 40%... which of course there's a BIG difference there, right? I would have to look into the NEOTECH a LOT more, because good grief~ 5 weeks sure seem awfully young!! But she is adamant about it... Yes, I would ask her many questions

Switching gears, I just saw that Great Lakes Poodle Club is having their 66th Annual Specialty Show this weekend in Chicago! How awesome would that be to go observe! Does anyone know, can just "anyone" go as a spectator? How awesome would that be to go and get my feet wet!! :whoo:


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> She certainly will not be a mentor for you in either show or performance. If you are looking to getting into showing for the 1st time, this would not be the breeder to buy from. If you are looking for a moderately priced pet then maybe this would be ok.


How much are their puppies ?


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## MoJoMama

roxy25 said:


> How much are their puppies ?


I Haven't inquired yet... nothing is posted on the site. I'll let you know what I find out though.


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## roxy25

MoJoMama said:


> I Haven't inquired yet... nothing is posted on the site. I'll let you know what I find out though.


Yes please post and let us know. If this breeder is charging 1500 I would look else where because she is not putting work into the dogs to even charge someone that much.


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## SECRETO

I agree if she is charging 1500.00 I would look else where. You can pick up a show potential puppy out of ch parents for $1500.00 from a experienced breeder.


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## Harley_chik

You should definitely check out the show! I went to my first show last weekend and it was awesome. I posted some pics and a video, if you want to check them out. It was kind of overwhelming at first, but you get the hang of things after a while. You can check out Onofrio.com for info on the show. I actually have a good lead on my future pup b/c of going to the show.

I would love to hear if any one knows something about Graphic too, btw.


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## MoJoMama

Harley_chik said:


> You should definitely check out the show! I went to my first show last weekend and it was awesome. I posted some pics and a video, if you want to check them out. It was kind of overwhelming at first, but you get the hang of things after a while. You can check out Onofrio.com for info on the show. I actually have a good lead on my future pup b/c of going to the show.
> 
> I would love to hear if any one knows something about Graphic too, btw.


Thanks Harley_Chik! I'll check out your video... I think this is the first that I've seen of someone pricing Males different than Females. I know that pricing based on color is frowned upon (and agreed), but what about the sex of the dogs?


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## Cdnjennga

MoJoMama said:


> Thanks Harley_Chik! I'll check out your video... I think this is the first that I've seen of someone pricing Males different than Females. I know that pricing based on color is frowned upon (and agreed), but what about the sex of the dogs?


I don't like pricing based on sex. Breeders who price that way do it because puppy buyers usually prefer girls and boys can be harder to sell. I just think if the pups come from the same litter then they are presumably all of a similar quality. It's up to breeders to educate buyers on why they should be looking for a pup that has the right personality for them, rather than focusing only on sex.

For what it's worth, I have yet to meet a breeder who I would consider going to who has differing prices for their pups. They usually just say the price is $x amount and that's it, there's no differing variables based on sex, colour or anything else.

Oh and I would definitely go to the show! It's a great way to meet breed enthusiasts and see some beautiful dogs in person.


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## Harley_chik

That's interesting! I know w/ most toy breeds it's perfectly acceptable to charge less for males b/c everyone wants a female. I also know a lot of breeders (in other breeds) have one price for pet quality and another for show quality. It's not a hand over the cash, get full registration thing, you usually enter a co-ownership and prove to the breeder you're commited to showing. I do tend to agree that it shouldn't matter but I understand why they do it. I'm interested to hear more about Poodle breeders.


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## KPoos

I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.


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## Cdnjennga

Harley_chik said:


> I also know a lot of breeders (in other breeds) have one price for pet quality and another for show quality. It's not a hand over the cash, get full registration thing, you usually enter a co-ownership and prove to the breeder you're commited to showing.


See, that can be a problem too. Identifying the pet from show quality pups at 8 to 10 weeks can be very difficult. Lots of pups who end up being show quality end up in pet homes and vice versa. So if the breeder is going to charge more for show quality, are they going to refund the money if the bite goes off or any of the other things that turn a show prospect into a non show prospect pup happen? The only reason to charge more for a show prospect (IMO) is if the new owner plans to breed. If that's the case, co-ownership so you have some say in the breeding and either a puppy back or the price of a puppy back is the way to go!

As for the sex pricing, if the breeder looked great except for that one issue then I would go with them. But as I say, none of the breeders who fit my criteria in other ways that I have spoken to (and there's lots of them ) have priced their pups differently on sex. Having said that, price is usually the last thing I ask about, so maybe with some I cut them off the list before I found out about their different pricing!


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## Cdnjennga

KPoos said:


> I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.


Agreed, we co-owned two of the pups out of the breeding of one of our PWD litters. We didn't charge any more for the pup, our name just went on the registration along with the new owner's.


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## MoJoMama

KPoos said:


> I think co-owning a dog is smart for both people. Especially if it's a show prospect the breeder can get the dog back or send it out for showing if they want. Plus they are in closer contact with this specific puppy and can be more active in it's life.


(This is going to sound very naive, but I'm being totally serious)
Co-owning... Do you mean that if the breeder has agreed to co-own a puppy, they could take your puppy (as I'm sure it's agreed upon) to train/show the puppy if they want? Like you are "sharing" it? I've seen somewhere on here someone said, "My baby has gone away to "college"" and they have been away for a couple of months.... can someone explain this? Because I cannot imagine falling in love with my baby and then having them be taken away  even if it's temporary. Or is this totally separate from the co-owning situation?


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## Cdnjennga

MoJoMama said:


> (This is going to sound very naive, but I'm being totally serious)
> Co-owning... Do you mean that if the breeder has agreed to co-own a puppy, they could take your puppy (as I'm sure it's agreed upon) to train/show the puppy if they want? Like you are "sharing" it? I've seen somewhere on here someone said, "My baby has gone away to "college"" and they have been away for a couple of months.... can someone explain this? Because I cannot imagine falling in love with my baby and then having them be taken away  even if it's temporary. Or is this totally separate from the co-owning situation?


Co-owning can mean lots of things depending on the agreement between the breeder and owner. It can mean anything from the breeder's name going on the reg papers (and that's about it) through to the breeder putting a championship on the dog and having a litter from it. It really only happens usually when the pup buyer wants to show/ have a litter but the breeder wants to have some control over what happens with their pup. Having said that, my mom co-owns dogs with quite a few of her friends and trains/ competes with them in agility and water.

When the pup goes away for a few months, it's usually because they're doing the conformation circuit with a handler. It's separate from co-owning.  It usually takes quite a few shows for a dog to get their title, so the handler will take a handful or more of dogs that they're showing to compete with. We did it once with our first bitch to get her final few points and would never do it again. It can be fine if you have a great handler who you really trust with your dog. To each their own!


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## Harley_chik

Co-owning gives the breeder some control over when and if the puppy is bred. I'm pretty sure you can't register puppies w/o signitures from all co-owners of both parents. So someone couldn't breed a dog w/o the original breeder's blessing.


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## SECRETO

Harley_chik said:


> Co-owning gives the breeder some control over when and if the puppy is bred. I'm pretty sure you can't register puppies w/o signitures from all co-owners of both parents. So someone couldn't breed a dog w/o the original breeder's blessing.


If I remember correctly, on a male one signature is required for a breeding on a co-ownership. A bitch requires both on a co-ownership. 

Thats the chance a breeder takes when co-owning a male out.


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## cbrand

SECRETO said:


> If I remember correctly, on a male one signature is required for a breeding on a co-ownership. A bitch requires both on a co-ownership.
> 
> Thats the chance a breeder takes when co-owning a male out.


Yep. You are right. This is a giant loop hole and one that should be addressed in the written contract before a puppy leaves the breeder.

In my very first litter I sold a show puppy on a co-own agreement. Within a month, it was clear that the buyer had no intention of showing the puppy or meeting her other obligations. 

My biggest fear was that she now had an intact Poodle with full registration that she could breed willy nilly.

I told her she needed to return the puppy with all paper work and that I would give her a complete refund but that if she did not, I would pursue legal action including calling the police (there was a money issue involved).

I got the puppy back and ultimately placed him in a pet home.


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## Cynthadia

*Error in post*



cbrand said:


> While her dogs have better pedigrees than most (i.e finished dogs closer up) she pretty much seems like a BYB to me. What does she do with her dogs other than breed?
> 
> She has her own untitled stud dogs (cheaper than shipping a bitch and buying stud service from a Champion stud dog) and she is breeding them to her own untitled bitches. Is this really the very best breeding a breeder can do?
> 
> She has done a nice job of picking up dogs and bitches that have slipped through the cracks of established breeding programs. However, some of these dogs come from programs that have, as we say, crossed to the dark side. hwell:
> 
> Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place.
> 
> 
> Insomnia got the best of me tonight when I came across this post. I only copied the relevant information. Many years ago, Linda Stone purchased and finished two of my breeding (Ch. Jubilant Generally 'Lectric and Ch. Jubilant Prudently 'Lectric).
> 
> Although the original post was written in 2009, I thought it important to correct the name of the person referred to in the post, mostly because I don't want to see the character of a person who I know always acted with great integrity publicly maligned because of an inadvertent error.
> 
> To set the record straight, the person referred to in the original post is not Linda Stone, but *Lynda R. Harper*. If someone else already picked up this mistake and brought it to the attention of PF, then I apologize for my duplication.
> 
> Cynthia


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## cbrand

Cynthadia said:


> cbrand said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pagentry which became Millrose was run by a woman named Linda Stone who lived here in Colorado. She had a small breeding program and she showed, but then she had a life change, moved to Kansas and started breeding big time. I think she got busted when she had over 70 dogs and puppies on her place.
> 
> To set the record straight, the person referred to in the original post is not Linda Stone, but *Lynda R. Harper*.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes, my huge bad! Yes Lynda Harper. And although she has been shut down, I continue to see the Millrose/Pagentry dogs popping up every once in a while in other high volume programs. :frown:
Click to expand...


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## Bella's Momma

SECRETO said:


> I agree if she is charging 1500.00 I would look else where. You can pick up a show potential puppy out of ch parents for $1500.00 from a experienced breeder.


 Really? Oh man, I feel like a sucker the more I read here.


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## cbrand

Bella's Momma said:


> Really? Oh man, I feel like a sucker the more I read here.


Why so?


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## Fluffyspoos

Lol, wow, original thread is over a year old


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## wishpoo

> Really? Oh man, I feel like a sucker the more I read here.


I suppose maybe she payed that price for puppy that did not come from Ch parents and fully tested and of great quality ???

It still amazes me how many poor buyers are quick to pay that amount of money for the spoo puppies without "proper background" : (((. 

Yes, even spoos that do not come from Ch parents with health clearance can be great pets and loving, fantastic companions !!!!!! But that is not the point - PRICE is the point ! Asking 1,500 to 2,000 $ for high quality puppy is justified ONLY if breeder invested MONEY and TIME in producing the litter. If one pairs two family pets to get litter after litter and invests just for vaccination and one (if any) de-worming session - than how in the world one can ask that amount of money for a puppy LOL ???? 

I really feel bad for people who pay premium price for "no warranty" of the temperament, looks or health : ((( . 

YES - show puppy of fantastic quality can be bought for 1,500 $$$ without much problem , actually ...


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## Bella's Momma

wishpoo said:


> I suppose maybe she payed that price for puppy that did not come from Ch parents and fully tested and of great quality ???
> 
> It still amazes me how many poor buyers are quick to pay that amount of money for the spoo puppies without "proper background" : (((.
> 
> Yes, even spoos that do not come from Ch parents with health clearance can be great pets and loving, fantastic companions !!!!!! But that is not the point - PRICE is the point ! Asking 1,500 to 2,000 $ for high quality puppy is justified ONLY if breeder invested MONEY and TIME in producing the litter. If one pairs two family pets to get litter after litter and invests just for vaccination and one (if any) de-worming session - than how in the world one can ask that amount of money for a puppy LOL ????
> 
> I really feel bad for people who pay premium price for "no warranty" of the temperament, looks or health : ((( .


My dog's parents aren't champions but there are some in her lines. And yes, she is a 'pet' poodle. I don't know why she wasn't "show quality" because I wasn't looking for show quality. She did come with guarantees, though. And tested parents, etc.


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## wishpoo

I am glad to hear that parents were tested : ))) ! Do you remember for what conditions and did you saw results or are they posted at OFA : ) ?

Did you sign a sale contract and got a written warranty for at least 2 years for hips, eyes, Thyroid problems, and other genetic conditions ? If yes, that is really good than.

If parents themselves are not Ch in anything (agility, obedience, or confirmation), than the fact that there were "some Ch" in pedigree holds no value in that respect and that is standard "sale pitch" for many so-so breeders . They leach on somebody's else hard work and investment IMO. 

Again, it does not mean that puppy is not possibly great pet and looks nice, it is only the case that high price in not justified.


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## HOTW

Mybiggets issues were hte fct no health certificatesor info on the site, but he big wham was the foudnation bitch has Addison's and is up for placement!


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## wishpoo

Bjeeeeezzzzz .... 

...have nothing more to say :shut-mouth: : (((

They say that 75 $ a month is a "strain" for them ??? Than how they can afford all necessary health tests on breeding dogs and other necessary care for all those dogs and puppies ??? :alberteinstein:


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## bigpoodleperson

I am shocked and SO saddened for that girl!! Poor baby to be used for her breeding and then dumped for a something that is not her fault. 

They said she battled a closed pyometra for 6 weeks, and was then diagnosed with addisons while being spayed??!! A dog does not battle closed pyometra for 6 weeks! Plus, addisons is usually thought of after ruling out other tests if she was in an emergency hospital for a spay. Sounds extrememly fishy to me...


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## Feralpudel

wishpoo said:


> Bjeeeeezzzzz ....
> 
> ...have nothing more to say :shut-mouth: : (((
> 
> They say that 75 $ a month is a "strain" for them ??? Than how they can afford all necessary health tests on breeding dogs and other necessary care for all those dogs and puppies ??? :alberteinstein:


What Wishpoo said...my thoughts exactly, but with much more fabulous smileys, of course!


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## cbrand

Well and their current litter is out of Demi whose registered name is Birdpatch Darby's Redemption. Darby is the name of the bitch with Addisons so it sure seems like Demi is a Darbi daughter. Personally I would not breed the daughter of an Addison's affected bitch.


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## Poodlemum

Wycliffe is a very old and well-established English line. I believe that the Graphic line carries some hareditary problems. I am a newbie on this forum, but have owned Standard Poodles for over 30 years.


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## Feralpudel

Poodlemum said:


> Wycliffe is a very old and well-established English line. I believe that the Graphic line carries some hareditary problems. I am a newbie on this forum, but have owned Standard Poodles for over 30 years.


Jean Lyle (Wycliffe) lived in/near Vancouver, British Columbia. It is difficult to find black standard poodles in particular without some Wycliffe behind them. You can learn more about the history and influence of the Wycliffe lines here:

Wycliffe Influence

As for Graphic, I think it is safe to say that *any* standard breeder who breeds for any period of time will encounter health problems. All spoo lines carry hereditary problems...we just know more about some than others.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

*Well said!*

Well said, Feral Poodle.


It's incredibly rare to find a standard poodle, Champion or not, without a health issue in a five generation pedigree. If anyone comes such poodles, I would appreciate it if you would send me the name/pedigree of the poodle.

I have spent many years keeping track of health issues in poodles, I'm guessing that less than 1 in 20 ever gets reported to PHR and it may be higher than that!

Different poodle people have different concepts about what makes the ideal poodle. Different poodle owners have different priorities about what they do with their poodles. There are very few "perfect" poodles out there. Our breed standard is somewhat subjective which allows for individual interpretation. With differing priorities, comes differing values. 

When I think critically about a couple of the points mentioned here, offspring of champions, health testing, specific blood lines, this is what I come up with:

Bloodlines: Poodle bloodlines are kind of like human bloodlines/families. There are very few that are without health issues of some kind, some "family" health issues are better known than others because the "families" are more open about them and don't hide them, but most families have them. Some live longer, some have shorter life expectancies. Some have certain physical characteristics or personality traits. 

Health testing: We all know that there are health tests for several conditions in poodles and it although it makes sense to stack the deck in one's favor by health testing... there simply aren't any GENETIC tests available for the big issues that aren't currently devastating our poodles (bloat, Addison's, SA, AIHA, epilepsy, automimmune issues, hip dysplasia). Big point here: Having health tested parents, or coming from health tested lines, provides absolutely no guarantee of good health.

Champions: What does it take to make a conformation champion? In most cases, big hair and a professional handler (sorry!!! I know there are lots of Ch who are owner handled. I'd be interested in knowing if someone has the figure on how many owner handled Ch. there are compared to how many pro handled Ch) and lots of money. So what exactly do these three things have to do with conformation? How many poodles with excellent conformation aren't shown simply because one of those items is lacking? And if I were to purchase a pup out of Ch. parentage, what am I actually getting that I wouldn't be getting out of parents who aren't Ch? For those who's priority is having a Ch, then it is ever so important and gives value, but for those who don't have those same priorities value of a pup MAY be present in other areas. 

Would I pay $1500 for a dog who doesn't have Ch parents? Absolutely. Would I be a fool for doing so? Nope, not if that dog had the traits which are of value to me, BUT... someone else who values Ch parents would be a fool for making the same purchase.

Does that make sense? We each find value in those things which are important to us. For instance, someone may find a pup to be worth $1500 because of the upbring and socialization it has, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it comes from generations of health tested parents, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it is from Ch parents and Ch linage, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it has incredible drive, stamina and will make an awesome retriever.

I hope that everyone considers their individual priorities with their poodles and is accepting that others may have differing priorities.


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## Beach girl

Excellent points. How much something is "worth" is always at least a little bit subjective. Very good description of how we are all looking for certain things, which might be different from one person to the next.


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## Feralpudel

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> How many poodles with excellent conformation aren't shown simply because one of those items is lacking? And if I were to purchase a pup out of Ch. parentage, what am I actually getting that I wouldn't be getting out of parents who aren't Ch?
> 
> Does that make sense? We each find value in those things which are important to us. For instance, someone may find a pup to be worth $1500 because of the upbring and socialization it has, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it comes from generations of health tested parents, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it is from Ch parents and Ch linage, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it has incredible drive, stamina and will make an awesome retriever.
> 
> I hope that everyone considers their individual priorities with their poodles and is accepting that others may have differing priorities.


What CHs tell me is that the breeder is working to evaluate and prove the quality of her breeding stock. Performance titles are another indicator. Ideally, I'd like to see both (and got them in Dexter's case). Yes, it is expensive and labor-intensive to finish a standard poodle. But spoo puppies are relatively expensive, especially given their litter size. To my mind, one of the things that justifies that price for a puppy is the cost of finishing the breeding stock. 

I don't think the qualities you mentioned above are necessarily mutually exclusive. I think every puppy buyer deserves and should expect a well-socialized puppy from proven breeding stock (conformation and/or performance titles), bred with a view to health. Health includes not just testing, but careful awareness of what is behind the dogs.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Well said, Feral Poodle.
> 
> 
> It's incredibly rare to find a standard poodle, Champion or not, without a health issue in a five generation pedigree. If anyone comes such poodles, I would appreciate it if you would send me the name/pedigree of the poodle.
> 
> I have spent many years keeping track of health issues in poodles, I'm guessing that less than 1 in 20 ever gets reported to PHR and it may be higher than that!
> 
> Different poodle people have different concepts about what makes the ideal poodle. Different poodle owners have different priorities about what they do with their poodles. There are very few "perfect" poodles out there. Our breed standard is somewhat subjective which allows for individual interpretation. With differing priorities, comes differing values.
> 
> When I think critically about a couple of the points mentioned here, offspring of champions, health testing, specific blood lines, this is what I come up with:
> 
> Bloodlines: Poodle bloodlines are kind of like human bloodlines/families. There are very few that are without health issues of some kind, some "family" health issues are better known than others because the "families" are more open about them and don't hide them, but most families have them. Some live longer, some have shorter life expectancies. Some have certain physical characteristics or personality traits.
> 
> Health testing: We all know that there are health tests for several conditions in poodles and it although it makes sense to stack the deck in one's favor by health testing... there simply aren't any GENETIC tests available for the big issues that aren't currently devastating our poodles (bloat, Addison's, SA, AIHA, epilepsy, automimmune issues, hip dysplasia). Big point here: Having health tested parents, or coming from health tested lines, provides absolutely no guarantee of good health.
> 
> Champions: What does it take to make a conformation champion? In most cases, big hair and a professional handler (sorry!!! I know there are lots of Ch who are owner handled. I'd be interested in knowing if someone has the figure on how many owner handled Ch. there are compared to how many pro handled Ch) and lots of money. So what exactly do these three things have to do with conformation? How many poodles with excellent conformation aren't shown simply because one of those items is lacking? And if I were to purchase a pup out of Ch. parentage, what am I actually getting that I wouldn't be getting out of parents who aren't Ch? For those who's priority is having a Ch, then it is ever so important and gives value, but for those who don't have those same priorities value of a pup MAY be present in other areas.
> 
> Would I pay $1500 for a dog who doesn't have Ch parents? Absolutely. Would I be a fool for doing so? Nope, not if that dog had the traits which are of value to me, BUT... someone else who values Ch parents would be a fool for making the same purchase.
> 
> Does that make sense? We each find value in those things which are important to us. For instance, someone may find a pup to be worth $1500 because of the upbring and socialization it has, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it comes from generations of health tested parents, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it is from Ch parents and Ch linage, someone else may find a pup to be worth $1500 because it has incredible drive, stamina and will make an awesome retriever.
> 
> I hope that everyone considers their individual priorities with their poodles and is accepting that others may have differing priorities.


AMEN, AMEN and AMEN. Extremely well said and exactly how I feel!


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## spoospirit

_Yaddaluvpoodles, This is one of the best posts I have seen on this forum. It makes complete sense. Thank you for our wisdom.
_


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## Poodlemum

Feralpudel said:


> Jean Lyle (Wycliffe) lived in/near Vancouver, British Columbia. It is difficult to find black standard poodles in particular without some Wycliffe behind them. You can learn more about the history and influence of the Wycliffe lines here:
> 
> Wycliffe Influence
> 
> As for Graphic, I think it is safe to say that *any* standard breeder who breeds for any period of time will encounter health problems. All spoo lines carry hereditary problems...we just know more about some than others.


Yes, sorry, Wycliffe IS Canadian - I thought it was English because I have Wycliffe in my dog's pedigrees-way back- and they are mostly from English & South African lines which were imported into New Zealand in the 70's (I believe).

My line is based on a New Zealand line called "Wildwind". If you have read Eileen Geeson's book "The Complete Standard Poodle" Wildwind is mentioned in it. They are dogs with excellent conformation and temperament and few health issues.


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## fjm

Excellent post, Yaddaluvpoodles. Especially as in some countries - like the UK - very, very few dogs get to champion status in the conformation ring. Too much focus on titles where few dogs are titled takes us back into popular sire territory. I read an interesting study by a leading geneticist who argued we should be breeding from the best 50% of all stock (taking account of health, soundness, longevity and temperament in assessing which are the "best") to ensure minimal narrowing of the gene pool.


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## cbrand

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Champions: What does it take to make a conformation champion? In most cases, big hair and a professional handler and lots of money.


I encourage anyone who believes this line of thinking to give it a try. Grow your dog out, put it with handler and see how it does. I've seen plenty of Poodles handled by pros who never finish (no matter how much money is spent) because they have poor structure, poor temperament or poor movement.


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## wishpoo

> I don't think the qualities you mentioned above are necessarily mutually exclusive. I think every puppy buyer deserves and should expect a well-socialized puppy from proven breeding stock (conformation and/or performance titles), bred with a view to health. Health includes not just testing, but careful awareness of what is behind the dogs.


*Absolutely !!!!!*:act-up:

I never understand why people equate the above with a "perfect poodle" LOL.

There are MULTITUDE of puppies that fit the above description for 1,500 $ out there !!!!!! Great looking, intensively socialized, with all health checks and warranties behind them and with all kind of "drives" ! :in-love:

What one is looking for is absolutely subjective, but how much is something actually worth objectively is another matter. I can buy a reproduction of an oil painting that I personally find beautiful and spend 10,000 $ but in "real life" if it is not of certain quality and artistically pleasing and from famous painter than that price is not justified LOL since I could have bought that reproduction for 100 $ in another gallery. 

PS:


> In most cases, big hair and a professional handler (sorry!!! I know there are lots of Ch who are owner handled. I'd be interested in knowing if someone has the figure on how many owner handled Ch. there are compared to how many pro handled Ch) and lots of money. So what exactly do these three things have to do with conformation?


Are you serious !? :bulgy-eyes: Are you saying that "any" dog can get a Ch title just by being "fluffed" up and with pro-handler , because that is just very far fro being a factual statement :dontknow:

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The bottom line is "different strokes for different folks" BUT the fact is that more than one member here was surprised and felt like being taken advantage of when the realized what they could have bought for the same amount of money :eyebrows:


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## Cynthadia

cbrand said:


> I encourage anyone who believes this line of thinking to give it a try. Grow your dog out, put it with handler and see how it does. I've seen plenty of Poodles handled by pros who never finish (no matter how much money is spent) because they have poor structure, poor temperament or poor movement.


How can one possibly quantify this statement any more than one can say it takes big hair and a professional handler to finish a dog? I finished a dog, put singles on another dog, put a major on another dog, and no one would mistake me for a pro handler. I watched Mary Rice finish a dog I co-owned with her and this is someone who never put a point on a dog, let alone finish one. And by the way, the dog had no front and moved like a hackney pony. Conversely, I observed over a period of 15 years probably a dozen pro handlers and owner handlers finish dogs that at best I would characterize as crippled in their movement, and I have the videos to prove it. I certainly don't claim to have seen it all because for the most part I stayed within 500 miles of Denver. My own conclusion: great dogs, good dogs, nothing remarkable dogs, and why-bother-spending-the-entry-fee-dogs can and do finish with owner handlers, pro handlers, and the grooming challenged. Finishing a dog yourself or paying for someone else to finish your dog is the easy part. IMO, the hard part is ...


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## NOLA Standards

*effort to prove...*

The resistance to investing time and money to finish an animal continues to mystify me.

I'll jump in on this one as I can speak firsthand and prove a perfect example.

Just over a year ago, I purchased a lovely little red bitch with full breeding rights and no "strings". I also had - and it still stands the offer for a male...

Voila I = breeder (well as soon as they were old enough and had passed testing)

I felt I had the background. Years of showing horses, raised on a farm, dogs all my life, blah blah blah...

BUT, I also wanted to "prove" myself and my bitch. So I started going to AKC Shows and applying to Kennel Clubs and becoming actively involved in responsible pet education in my city.

I knew quite a lot about animals - dogs specifically - when I started. Now, I know SO MUCH MORE!!! :alberteinstein:

Can some handlers take a skunk into the poodle ring and get Winners. Yep. Have I seen an owner handler do it....ummm No... but guess it could happen... though I'd like you to tell me who...and likely then it would be an owner handler who has been owner handling for years (Let's talk about the time and money invested there!) or someone who has a truly spectacular animal. Keith (owner handler) is winning Group placements with his class dog. Because the animals IS stunning (and 27 plus inches! which is large but his structure is lovely and he is still refined)... AND Keith excels at grooming.

Bottom line for me...I appreciate and respect breeders who are putting titles on their animals. My pet has a CGC and a TDI Cert (neutered parti). To breed and to not title...well unless there is a health reason prohibiting (with time, energy and finances) a breeder from doing so, then I tend to think their ideals are purely rhetoric and I know (again, from going out and spending the time and money to do it myself ) their objections are much ado.

A well known handler will be putting Annie's majors on her. I could, and will try to get them myself until time for the "heavy hitter". Possible I could get them...

Even if she didn't finish as an AKC Ch, I would still title her - coursing willl be one we do after she finishes conformation. There is just so much to learn by being involved.

And that's my opinion. Which I hold high - but you can do with what you wish! :amen:


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