# Question about breeders



## harry89 (Dec 29, 2020)

Hi everyone, 

I am happy to be here. I am interested in buying a standard poodle, however, I don't want to buy it from a puppy mill. I am a DVM student (veterinary student) so I would never in my life support puppy mills. I want the poodle as a companion, therapy dog. I want a dog with an excellent temperament, a dog that loves walking with me in the afternoon but it's not crazy hyper or hyper at home (not sure if this makes sense?). I want to find the best standard poodle breeder out there, the most caring and the most experienced one. I want a dog that's perfectly healthy with excellent genetics.

Any suggestions about reputable breeders? 

I live in the United States. Thanks for all your help


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Given your DVM student status, a lot of this may be on the 101 level for you, but jic...

I'm going to drop my personal criteria for selecting a breeder followed by a partial list of breeders compiled from recommendations of PF members thru the years.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for its lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing or by breeding from titled parents.
It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.

Here's a link to a Breeders List stickied in the Finding the Right Puppy and Breeder forum. I'm also going to add some related resources.

*🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩  *
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...


If you look thru that list, review the Health information (great strides there in the science).
Don't skip the multi state listings, and particularly don't skip the Poodle Club of America Breeder Referral for your region (or search "Poodle Club of ___").

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to up to $3000 at the top end. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

_No testing whatsoever is required by any private or government entity._

The OFA database started as an orthopedic database so much of the testing you see will be the phenotype testing. They accept DNA testing and publish results if the owner pays the fee. You'll find all that info on the OFA website as well as the VIP site.
The CHIC certification requirements were voluntarily established and a dog does not even have to pass with good results:

_"OFA created the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) by partnering with participating parent clubs to research and maintain information on the health issues prevalent in specific breeds. We’ve established a recommended protocol for breed-specific health screenings. Dogs tested in accordance with that protocol are recognized with a CHIC number and certification." 
"The CHIC number itself does not imply normal test results, only that all the required breed specific tests were performed and the results made publicly available." _

These tests are all breed specific, and in the case of poodles, variety specific also. That's why the standard, miniature and toy poodles all have different testing associated with the different varieties.



*  CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO  *
OFA's Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) provides information on health issues prevalent in specific breeds. Learn more about the CHIC program.
www.ofa.org


*  Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO  *
Browse our Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) to view disease statistics for various dog breeds. Contribute to the database by ordering a DNA test.
www.ofa.org


*  DNA Tested Diseases | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO  *
Order our DNA testing kit to test your dog or cat for common diseases. Tests can be done at home and results will be processed and reported to the owner.
www.ofa.org


*  Breed Statistics | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO  *
View genetic disease statistics for your dog or cat breed. The OFA offers DNA testing, free educational resources and access to canine and feline research.
www.ofa.org

https://secure.ofa.org/regSums/POODLE.pdf

In addition to the testing thru or published by OFA, VIP has their own site which describes potential health issues:

*  Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.  *
Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
vipoodle.org

*  Health Related Links - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.  *
Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
vipoodle.org

The various Poodle Clubs will also have a lot of health information available but it's all basically hand in glove no matter which entity you are researching.

Remember that not all issues can be tested for because the gene/s responsible haven't been identified, or environmental factors play a role.

Not all breeders do the full OFA/CHIC testing for their breed or variety. Some reasons for this are because they know the history of their lines and of the dog they may breed with, if from another kennel. "Cleared by Parentage" is another possibility.

Not all breeders do any DNA testing on their dogs.

There isn't a large number of breeders that do both the phenotype and genotype panel testing.


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## harry89 (Dec 29, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome!
> 
> Given your DVM student status, a lot of this may be on the 101 level for you, but jic...
> 
> ...


Thank you! I've been having the hardest time finding reputable breeders so the list you provided is extremely helpful. The internet is an awesome place but can be dangerous too and I do not want to get scammed. 

Thank you!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

In addition to the excellent information provided by Rose n Poos, I would suggest reaching out to breed clubs affiliated with the AKC and UKC. You can find lists on the web sites. Fortunately the show standard for poodles rewards structurally sound dogs. The show breeders usually know who the stellar breeders are in their locality; they don't like puppy mills any more than the rest of us do.


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