# east coast spoo breeders who don't dock



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

maybe try poodlesdegrenier in upstate ny. they have a website, which the owner has said is a bit outdated, but are deeply involved in the poodle diversity project.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

*Thanks*

What cute puppies there.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i should add that the breeder can probably also direct you to others who don't dock their poodles and who do address the issue of diversity in breeding. good luck and looking forward to meeting the new family member.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

It says on the website they are rehoming some dogs. Is everything OK there?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i'm pretty sure if you talk to them, they'll tell you what's up. i don't know. but the owner appeared for a short response at pf recently to someone with a question, though not about her dogs specifically, i believe. i've noticed a couple of other breeders over the years having to reduce the number of their dogs due to family illness, etc., and several have just stopped breeding due to personal or health reasons.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am sad I don't live in the area...if I did, I would apply for one the retired dogs in a heartbeat!!


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

My future daughter in law wrote to them.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

She didn't get an answer from DeGrenier. I hope everything is OK -- what lovely poodles they have.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Keep in mind that this past week was pca and most reputable poodle breeders were attending the show, which spanned longer than a week. Many people I know just barely got back home today or yesterday and they are probably very busy trying to pick up their lives again (and catching up on all of their backed up emails could take some time!)


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

Any other suggestions for undocking breeders of standards within 12 hours drive of Philadelphia?


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Join the group litters from health tested poodles (or something to that effect) on Facebook. There are a few people - Mariah propert and Rebecca shyre come to mind, but I have no clue where they live. Keep in mind that the majority of undocking breeders do not show in akc and their dogs look different from the show line dogs. Many are parti breeders also. If you are completely fine with that, I’m sure you can find someone on that group.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

12 hours could take you to canada, right? maybe contact arreau, who is a member here. i know one owner in bc said she is in a province where docking and dew claw removal are not permitted. don't know if that's true where arreau lives, but she is a well-respected breeder.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

We are still looking. It appears that DeGreniers no longer breeds -- they have not answered their emails or even a puppy application.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sometimes the best way is a phone call. i have seen a few breeders who actually say that on their web site. possibly, too, because it is hard for them to keep their sites up to day with everything going on.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

A lot of the breeders these days do not list a phone number on their website, including, as it happens DeGrenier. 

For anyone reading this: I do have one huge PET peeve about breeder website. Please folks -- write the city and state that you are in on your home page in big bright letters. I have spent sometimes as long a 15 minutes just trying to find out if a breeder is located within 1000 miles of our home. Why do the breeders assume we will know where they are located, especially since most are quite cagey about listing a specific address (or any personal information at all) on the contact page. How can we find a breeder in driving distance when the location of most breeders is so obscure.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fel, i knew i had seen her post here recently. she replied to a thread in the poodle breeder directory forum in february. she uses degrenier as her handle here and said she is most reachable via facebook. can't help you there as i don't do facebook,, but if you do, she said she posts as her name, which i gather is natalie green tessier. you could try that if you are on facebook. i hope this gets you some results.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

By way of update, they are going with a Mt. Bethel puppy. The litter is due end of June.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I believe docking is still legal in Ontario but it is illegal in the province of Quebec. I don’t know if it’s too far for you. I’m sure we have at least a few respectable breeders.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

We love Quebec, but it is definitely more than a day's drive away.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fel said:


> By way of update, they are going with a Mt. Bethel puppy. The litter is due end of June.



hope it's a lovely pup. be sure to post some pics!


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

*Baby picture of my grandpoodle*

I couldn't resist. She's 2 days old!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Beautiful color!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Congratulations and Happy Puppyhood!


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

*very sad, grandpup did not work out*

They "accidentally" removed a dew claw, after agreeing not to.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Eeek. Did they say how that happened? Everybody makes mistakes I guess, but it sucks when you were trying to avoid it. Did the other dew claw make it?


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

The second dew claw did make it but they are turning down the pup. They were already being forced to select a pup at 3 days old, without even getting to see the eyes or personality, just to get the tail and dew claws intact. Now they don't even get that. If they wanted a pup which is docked, they would have many many options, and could assess personality and those other factors that are so important.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

And they did not say how it happened.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Yes, this is the same reason I took docking and dewclaws off my list of things I cared about when selecting a pup. It's just not enough of a priority to sacrifice other stuff.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

People who are considering that breeder are forewarned. She is now sending my son very belligerent emails. She is implying he wouldn't give the dog a loving home, and she is refusing to give the deposit back outright, even though she is the one who breached the contract.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

yikes! i do not understand why breeders do things like this to themselves. so sorry to hear about this.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

It sounds to me like the breeder probably grabbed the wrong puppy while doing docking/dewclaws and removed the first one before realizing the mistake. Now the breeder has a puppy with one dewclaw and a long tail to try and place elsewhere. Unless your son refused the puppy on that very day, in which hopefully she could have gone ahead with the rest of the docking and dewclaws. I hope she was able to do that. 

I would never recommend buying an undocked puppy from someone who doesn’t leave ALL of the puppies in tact. At 3 days old no one should be choosing a puppy. I don’t agree with breeders who allow people to pick their puppy at 3 days old. By making a breeder leave one puppy with an undocked tail, of things don’t work out with that home, what a pain!

I can see why this breeder would be upset at this point if she left the puppy natural tail. Things like this happen, she probably (hopefully) won’t ever allow someone to make her leave one puppy with tail on again. So find a breeder who leaves the tails on all of the puppies. Don’t put another breeder and yourselves through this again. Had I realized that you were trying to get an undocked puppy from a breeder who normally docks I would have definitely recommended against that from the beginning. There are so many reasons not to do that.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

chinchillafuzzy I was thinking along the same lines since it sounds like leaving tail long and dewclaws on is what this breeder usually does. I also agree that choosing a pup at two or three days old makes no sense. If leaving the pup natural is that important then it really only makes sense to deal with a breeder whose normal practice is to leave all pups natural. Honestly you can even really be sure the pup will live when it is that young so to put a deposit and make a choice on a specific pup that is merely two days old sounds unrealistic in many ways.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes we absolutely agree. We won't make the mistake again of buying from someone who normally docks and removes dew claws. It was the highest priority (after health testing and good temperament) for getting this dog -- it is just super important to us. From our perspective, morally, it is inappropriate to dock. 

I will note that one of the other puppy buyers for this litter of 6 also wanted an unaltered puppy. So this couldn't be that uncommon. That was 2 out of 6 pups who needed to be left intact. 

The problem is that is very difficult to find health checked natural poodles in the US. For my Kepler I had to go to Canada. I started posting here to identify a breeder, and none came to light.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fel, i found this old post (2012) here at pf that names some breeders who don't dock. https://www.poodleforum.com/16-pood...t-dock-tails-remove-dew-claws.html#post267945


not in the northeast, but sometimes a breeder can point you to someone in your part of the country.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

patk said:


> fel, i found this old post (2012) here at pf that names some breeders who don't dock. https://www.poodleforum.com/16-pood...t-dock-tails-remove-dew-claws.html#post267945
> 
> 
> not in the northeast, but sometimes a breeder can point you to someone in your part of the country.


Thanks. I used that post when I got Kepler -- from Silken, which is now defunct.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

She's not on the east coast, but the breeder of my puppy leaves tails and dewclaws intact.

https://crystalcreekstandardpoodles.weebly.com/


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Quossum said:


> She's not on the east coast, but the breeder of my puppy leaves tails and dewclaws intact.
> 
> https://crystalcreekstandardpoodles.weebly.com/


I thought I had mentioned her earlier but guess I didn’t because I knew she was far. But I love crystal creek. She is one of the most caring breeders I know.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I am currently treating our Lab rescue for an injured dew claw. This is the third time that has happened to her. I can tell that it is a painful injury. I have even considered having surgery to remove them since she is so prone to injury there, but dew claw removal on an adult is a serious surgery, not at all like the simple thing it is on tiny puppies.

I always did tails and dewclaws at 3 days - on all puppies. No one who reserved a puppy ever asked me to leave them. For poodles in particular, I suspect it is easy to nick the flesh of a dewclaw when clipping or scissoring the front legs, so better to have them removed.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Johanna I agree with you that dewclaws are a major PIA. I hate trimming them on Peeves and very happy not to have to do them on Lily and Javelin. Someone who trains at my club has a golden who has injured one or another dewclaw a couple of time each.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I too agree, dewclaws can be very dangerous. My chihuahua has even caught his on his kennel. They are a pain to trim too, not the same at all as the nails on their feet. After that dog I was adamant about not having dew claws. As for tail docking well I'm undecided. I P who did not have its tail docked. It ws always knocking things over with it and also broke it one time. I agree with what has been said if a breeder who normally docks and removes dew claws kept them in tack, and buyer changed mind I would not refund any deposit. I guess in this guess since breeder agreed then made a mistake if the pup sells then I would return the deposit less any money lost. I personally would have taken the pup anyway.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

This is what breeder/canine researcher de Grenier says on her website about docking & dew claws: 

"We don't dock tails or dew claws anymore, since these are entirely aesthetic surgeries. We believe that at one time, docking tails proved whether neonatal puppies were affected by a once-common bleeding disease much like hemophilia - one that has a conclusive DNA test today. Tail docking now is banned in Europe and Australia, and there is no medical necessity for it. Undocked tails looked odd to us at first, but now it seems silly to cut off tails. They are very expressive. Also, if we are ever to breed good intact tails, we have to know what they look like without docking! Like tails, there was once a legitimate reason to remove dew claws. Retrievers' "thumbs" were traditionally docked to prevent them ripping in the field, but most poodles aren't ever in heavy brush. Besides, poodles are supposed to have "bracelets" at the wrists, a pom of hair that keeps them warm while swimming and protects their thumbs from catching."​
I will add that if the dew claws present a hazard mainly for hunting/retrieving dogs, isn't it interesting that the breeders that tend to RETAIN all body parts are those that are breeding working/hunting dogs. Why would they be choosing to retain a body part that is most at risk for these working dogs? The suggestion on their websites is that these breeders actually believe their intact dogs are functionally better. Indeed, in looking at breeder websites, one said that they will leave dewclaws intact for dogs planned for agility or field work, but remove them for other puppies. 

For those of you who are giving anecdotal evidence regarding the dangers of dewclaws, perhaps you are demonstrating what we call in psychology a conformation bias. Yet, I am sure that you realize damage can occur to any protruding body part of any animal. I have seen humans with very long toe nails, that caused injury to the toe, and to other humans. I personally have stubbed and/or broken my pinky toes more times than I can count. Indeed, without a pinky toe, I would fit into fashionable pointy shoes better. So far, no one ever suggested that these digits should have been removed at birth. 

If you look at the state of the science now: we have evidence that removing these parts of the dog's body (1) cause pain at the time of injury, (2) can cause long lasting pain in the form of arthritis (3) limits functionality (such as the tail for expressing emotion). Obviously, one has to clip the dogs nails, including on the dew claw. Not such a big deal, in the scheme of things when grooming a poodle. 

Nevertheless, I was not here to proselytize about my opinion. I was trying to find a breeder who shares my beliefs in these matters, or who would at least take seriously a request to respect those opinions.


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## fel (Jan 8, 2014)

Mufar42 said:


> . I guess in this guess since breeder agreed then made a mistake if the pup sells then I would return the deposit less any money lost. .


The breeder didn't just agree, she contracted (in writing) to do this. Call me old fashioned, but a contract is a contract. What about the responsibility of the breeder for her own mistake? Why should a buyer bear the cost of her mistake? Where else could you contract for something, not get it because of the seller's mistake, and then have the seller keep the deposit anyway. 

For example, I know someone who bought a special order washing machine. It arrived dented. This did not fulfill the contract, so she returned the washing machine and got her money back.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Yes i see your point. Since she did contract in writing to do this for you I would think she is obligated to refund you as she is not fulfilling her contract. I think legally dogs are considered property, just like a washing machine. I tend to feel bad when someone makes a mistake so I tend forgive. I'd probably have kept the washer if it weren't a big dent. LOL Thats just me. But I get your point.


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