# Becoming a Breeder in the future?



## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Hi everyone, first of i did post this is a different thread, but didnt get many answers to my questions, mostly just people telling me how important shows really are for a breeding program. Anyways this is what i asked and what people replied. Just would love to get more opinions from a breed specific site.



Amanda1472 said:


> (Not sure if i can post this at all...)
> Hopefully i wont get yelled at, but here we go. (some background first)
> 
> Hello, im Amanda and im 18 years old, i will be going into grade 12 next week 9summer went by fast) and i will be applying for a vet tech college as soon as they come out. I have a almost six year old poodle and we also now have a 12 week old chihuahua, Hope.
> ...





seebrown said:


> Hello! I can't answer your questions, however, I would suggest that you start looking at showing or competing with a dog, versus actually breeding at this point. I believe that is how the majority of responsible breeders start - by wanting to improve the line of dog they are interested in, not just the breeding itself. If you are going to breed responsibly, you would need to know more about conformation, how the dog looks/works, the quality of the breed, etc. before you think about breeding. So "showing" isn't really important as much as the dog bettering the breed either through showing, sporting, working, etc. - but typically show dogs are what are sold as pets, and I believe they are typically papered in some way. This doesn't mean that all good breeders paper, because I believe you can register pups even if you are a BYB.
> 
> If you get involved in that with the breed you are interested in, you could at that point probably connect with a breeder who is competing with their dogs in some way and mentor under them.
> 
> ...





Amanda1472 said:


> Thank you very much. And that is exactly what i would do if i ever do breed. I would want to improve the breed, by health and personality. The only reason i asked on the showing fact is that im not a big fan of shows, i do like them, but not a big fan. I probably wont start really doing things mentioned in till im out of high school (summer of 2013) since i cant have another dog right now even if i really wanted to show, and my poor Niles is no show dog (and i think they cant be spayed neutered either?). Im still trying to learn so things will go slowly as i learn over the years. Of course i want to be a good breeder with healthy dogs.
> 
> But like i said, im not sure if i will breed, and if i do it will be years (maybe 5-7) down the road when i have enough knowledge.
> 
> Thanks





TorachiKatashi said:


> Honestly, I think you're coming at this completely the wrong way. You don't start with "I want to breed" then pick a breed from there, you spend ten or fifteen years with your particular breed, in the Conformation ring and learning other experienced breeders, then decide you want to breed.





FailedSlacker said:


> -Is it really important for the parent dogs to be show dogs as well? (If i do breed, every dog/puppy would be CKC registered etc)
> For the breed you are considering? Absolute yes. It is very important. You need to know that your dog is a good example of the breed and worth breeding. Just being registered isn't good enough - championships are required here. Breeding for the sake of breeding means you are just another back-yard breeder. Good, responsible breeders do so for the love of the breed (or for the love of the sport in the case of designer flyball dogs). Forget about making money on this - it's a hobby not a job.
> Instead of just researching breeding, look a lot more closely into your breed of dog. You should know everything about the breed before you even consider breeding them. What diseases/health issues are they prone for? What are their common traits? What are the standards of the different kennel clubs? If you can't answer these off the top of your head, you have no business breeding. I'd suggest getting into conformation now so you get a good idea of all that is involved.


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Continued


amanda1472 said:


> thats exactly what i want to do. Sorry if it came out all wrong. I just also though i could learn about genetics and etc. And like i said i cant start showing or anything like that for another year or so. Im just wanting to learn as much as possible. Im mostly asking for books or websites anyone can give me about conformation, health, training and anything else. =) hopefully i make sense now?
> __________________________
> oh i know true good breeders breed for the health and making the breed better, not for money. Thats not what i plan on doing. I plan on having good dogs, with good health, conformation and etc.
> 
> ...





rain said:


> you'd do best to search for websites for the breed that you are wanting to show/breed. Those sites will be able to hopefully tell you about what dog shows are looking for in the breed, what health problems are inherent to the breed, what books for that breed they recommend.
> 
> Unless someone here is breeding or showing toy poodles, all the information given is going to be general rather then breed specific.





amandanola said:


> get into showing or agility or rally before you make this choice. Don't just get and breed pet dogs. There's already too many.
> 
> Get the best breeding stock possible, from health tested, registered and titled parents. A good breeder is going to be very hesitant to provide full registration to a first time breeder, so you're going to have to prove you know everything about the breed, health problems and temperament ect, that you're financially capable of breeding and that above all you are nt doing this to make a quick buck. Good breeders breed to better the breed, not make a profit.
> 
> ...



.


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

CONTINUED


Amanda1472 said:


> Thank you Rain & AmandaNola, you answers have been the most helful to me.
> 
> I know everyone means the best, since there are so many unwanted dog in the shelters, and so many puppy mills/BYB. Its just that some of you are making it seems like im breeding already or i want to start in the next month. WHICH IS NOT, what i want to do. I want to learn everything i can about the breed, the health of dogs, genetics birthing, what to do in emergencies and anything i may need to know if i do decide to do this. I will mostly start learning and studying/showing after im done vet tech college so i will have some insight into the health and genetics of dog, which im sure will help me a little. I will start buying poodle books and anything i can get. If i do breed of course i will get every parent test for any problems. And another reason i said 5-7 years down the road is so that i know if i will have the fiances to care for dogs and specially for the vet bills. And i know breeders usually make very little to no money, and i dont care for the money. I am an animal lover, and always have been, my dream has always been to work with animals and save them (i wanted to start a rescue when i was little). My point is, of course i will learn as much and everything i can, i will make sure all the dogs are healthy, i will give all the puppies a starter kit, i would take back any dog, i would make sure all of the are spayed or neutered before leaving and etc.
> 
> Sorry for the rant





Blue pup said:


> ^^ I couldn't add more to what the others have already said.
> 
> I do have one thing I should mention - wait until you graduate from both schools (HS & college) and get a stable job before you get your fist show pup/dog. I've been wanting to show Akita's (japanese) for a while in confirmation (and do sports like flyball) - I've been learning under a guidence of breeder (30 yrs experience) of Akita's (american) for about 7 years now. I felt I was ready to get a dog of my own to starts showing (and I graduated from HS this spring) and boy was I ever wrong... I was lined up to get a puppy from Europe, I knew the expenses and all and I would have been able to pay them, but I didn't factor in the college and housing - it gets in the way. The breeder was quite understanding of my situation (I had my mentor as a reference..ect..) and so I will be first in line for any of her other litters as soon as I'm ready (the pups were born on the 22nd this week).
> 
> Also it's best if you start learning under the guidance of someone, maybe handle some of their dogs in the ring..ect... This is a key point. I'm going to tell you now that breeders are not very willing of giving up one of their puppies with lot's of show potential - but if they have a reference to go of, they are more willing... but you still need to prove it to them Also, books are only so good... the best way to learn is to go to shows with someone that is willing to teach you





Amanda1472 said:


> Once again, thank you so much for the advice Blue pup. Everything you said make sense, but well there is another problem, there are no toy poodle breeders here where i live, the closest i could find was 2 hours and 40 minutes away. Im not sure how i will get experience showing toy poodles when there are non in my area.





Blue pup said:


> Well no worries, there should be plenty of miniature and standards out there This is the best thing about breed with 3 different sizes - the standard is pretty much the same... the only difference is well, size! Try and get in contact with someone who breeds shows the above ^^ If not - you can still talk to breeders with toys - they should be more then willing to answer questions for you! Also shows are held all over - so it's very likely that you'd see a Toy Poodle breeder if you go to a show even if they do not live in the area.
> 
> Also here: Calendar of Events
> 
> Select an event (confirmation -it'll have another thing pop up - leave it at all sub events), province and dates and it'll show you any shows happening at those times (and location).





cookieface said:


> You sound very responsible and thoughtful to me
> 
> I have a standard poodle and researched breeding and breeders for months before finding a handful of breeders who met my expectations of a "responsible breeder." In doing that research, I came across a number of good resources:
> 
> ...





myshihtzubaby said:


> In my opinion (based on my very recently experience)
> 1. Get a stable income
> 2. A proper room/house/place to house your dogs, nursing room, yard for exercise, etc
> 3. Pick 1 breed that suits you (1 breed is hard enough already, you would most likely spend all your time learning about that particular breed and there is endless information to be learn)
> ...





Amanda1472 said:


> Thank you so much my****zubaby, & cookieface, i will take a look at the links and i will save the ist you have made my****zubaby. School does start next week, but a week or so after im going to see what i can get involved with, hopefully there is one good poodle breeder here, if not i will just try and make it to shows to meet the breeders & dogs,



Any new thoughts on this, more advice, etc? Thank you for reading all of this


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Can anyone give me some advice, or tips, or even answer a few of my questions? Thank you


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Hi Amanda - it looks as if you have had a lot of answers and advice already - which particular questions do you still need answers to? Frankly, I would advise finding a well paid career that will support the hobby of showing and breeding, then immersing yourself in your chosen breed and trying to find a really good mentor who will trust you with a foundation bitch (probably better to use studs from other breeders, while you are getting your line established). Breeding done properly is rarely a profit making concern, so you need a source of income to support yourself and your dogs. Ideally something that would enable you to work from home, and take a lot of time off when puppies are due - you will need to plan to be available to help your bitch 24/7 for a week or two either side of her due date, and to be ready to rush her to the vet for an emergency cesarian, and possibly feed any surviving pups every 3 hours day and night for several weeks - not easy if you have a job as well!


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you very much for your response. Im mostly trying to get as many opinions/advice from as many people as possible. 

Now these where the questions that where not really answered. and the one about showing i just want opinions on, as i have met really good reliable breeders who focus on pet dogs/health/personality and dont really show. And thats what i would like to do, focus more on the pet dogs then show dogs. But of course if to get good healthy dogs and to become a reliable breeder i have to show, then i will.

anyways here are the qs:

-Are there any training videos, books you all trust?
-How many dogs would you think is a good number for a small scale breeding program?
-What things should i include in the info booklet (house breaking, how to stop a puppy from biting etc)?
-How should a birthing area.room etc look like?
-What should i have in a emergency birthing kit?
-Is it really important for the parent dogs to be show dogs as well? (If i do breed, every dog/puppy would be CKC registered etc)
-Anything else?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi Amanda,

A lot of the questions you have would be answered if you could find a mentor in your area who you could volunteer with. Look up a dog show in your area, go watch the toy poodle judging, and when it's over, talk to the toy poodle breeders to see if you click with someone. Mention you have a future interest in showing and breeding, and offer to volunteer your time with anything they need. This is how you will learn.

Breeding, when done right, is quite expensive. It's a hobby, not a job. You will need a real job and being a breeder would be on the side. You might even lose money breeding, if you're doing it the right way. It's VERY costly to show, groom, train, health test, rear puppies, etc. It will cost thousands of dollars just to get one dog in the position to breed (meaning, all the grooming, training, showing and health testing). 

If you are seriously interested in breeding, the topic of whelping boxes and information packets for puppy buyers is YEARS in the future. You have much more to learn in the meantime. Finding a mentor will really help you get where you want to go.


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## TrinaBoo (Apr 3, 2012)

Most of those questions you will learn if you have a breeder as a mentor or getting INVOLVED. If and when you start a breeding program you aren't just going to go out and get 6 dogs and begin. Build yourself up slowly when that time comes. Every breeder is different and has a different amount of dogs. There are a ton of co-owned dogs. But that comes after relationships and trust have been established. A ton can change 5-7 years down the road. As you learn more and mature your views may change on the info you receive now or the ideas you have now.


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you both. The only problem on finding a mentor breeder is that the closest poodle breeder is almost 3 hours from me, and there are no shows near me with in the next four months, but i will keep checking. I do live in a smaller town so there are not as many opportunities to find breeders and shows. That is my only problem really. And im not sure if any breeder would let me learn from them and etc if its all done by email or phone. Plus my dad would not be able to drive me to different cities, mostly because he works, i have school and my parents are not HUGE dog people, they like them, and like their company, but nothing so gret as to want to travel for shows etc. I will keep looking and maybe a show will come close enough and at a good time so its not during school.

Thanks


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## TrinaBoo (Apr 3, 2012)

Sometimes when things seem to not be working out....it just isn't the right time for it to happen. Usually the reason will show itself. Be patient and good luck!


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you so much, i will keep looking for shows and etc. Hopefully i can get a mentor in the near future.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the meantime, anything and everything that you can learn about dogs will stand you in good stead in the future. Do you have a local rescue that you could help with? Or a boarding kennels where you could do some evening or weekend stints? Anywhere where you can work with dogs would be valuable. In terms of some background reading, I've found J M Evans "The book of the bitch" useful, and you could also read up on COI and genetics, and find out how the Poodle Health Registry can help in choosing suitable breeding dogs. And work with dogs would also look good on you Vet Tech application!


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you. There is a humane society here but its 30 minutes away and i already volunteer for a therapeutic riding center. And as for a kennel, well i have been pet sitting this summer, and will keep going for the rest of the school year, i have had 14 dogs, 1 rabbit, 4 hamsters, and two guinea pigs so far. Plus i will be doing co-op in a vets office second semester (January-july) I will keep researching, reading books and anything else i can. Thank you guys.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi Amanda,

I think an important starting point is to decide what kind of a breeder you want to be? Anyone can get a bitch and a stud together, have pups and Voila! They are a breeder. It's that simple, but....

What are you goals and interests?
Why do you want to breed?
What do you like to do with your dogs?
How do you perceive your dogs and your relationships with them?
Do you want to be a breeder that people can count on when they have questions, as a resource? 
Do you want to be a breeder who sells a dog, then feels it's totally the new owner's responsibility and if they have problems with it, they should go to vet/trainer, rather than come back to you?

I think that one of the reasons that no one has answered your questions is because they are so broad, it's hard to even think of an answer! I could write bookS (emphasis on that "s" intended) to respond to your questions.


Are you familiar with health issues, how are you planning on avoiding those? 

Do you know about canine structure and how that relates to function?

Do you know how to read pedigrees?

Are you familiar with both the Poodle Pedigree Database and the Poodle Health Registry?

Learning about breeding is kinda like eating an elephant.. you've got to do it one bite at a time.....


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## Countrylady1071 (Aug 9, 2012)

One thing that stands out to me is you say you want to breed for pets/health/personality. I really don't feel we need anymore "pet" breeders. You can get a great pet with awesome personality, and health checked parents from a show bred litter. It seems to me most litters bred for show have a puppy or maybe several that go to companion homes. IMO if you want to breed, get involved in SOMETHING competitive with your dogs, whether it's rally, confirmation, agility, etc. I think a dog should have titles or success of some sort before being chosen to breed. 


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Hi Amanda,
> 
> I think an important starting point is to decide what kind of a breeder you want to be? Anyone can get a bitch and a stud together, have pups and Voila! They are a breeder. It's that simple, but....
> 
> ...


Hum, good questions, i will try and answer them the best i can:

(im not sure if i got the first questions messed up but ...)
My goal(s) in life is to become a vet tech, and maybe get a certification as a horse handler. I would like to live more on the country side since i would like to own a horse or two in the future (im still a beginner rider so, it way in the future). And maybe even move on in schooling to become a vet. 

Well there are some easy things like i love the breed, dogs and etc. But i also would like to make the breed the best it can be, plus i would love for people to get to know the breed better and not discriminate them as a "sissy breed".

Right now i don't to much with Niles, he is getting lazy as he gets olde,r but when he was younger i wanted to do some agility with him, but it never worked out. If i do breed i think i would like to do things like agility and /or obedience.

Well i see them as my my "kids", but of course i treat him like a dog. He loves me and maybe even sometimes over protects me when there is no need to. Im not sure how else to answer the question.

I would like to be a breeder where the owners can call be 24/7 for help or advice, one who would take a dog back if they cant care for it anymore. And one who would get all the puppies neutered/spayed unless going in to a pre-approved home. They would come with a 2 year health guarantee and anything else i can help with i will do so.

I have started researching common diseases in poodles, but im not too familiar yet, but im learning. And so far i think... that a health test of the dogs would be the best way to avoid diseases that can be past on to the puppies.

I have just started to learn about conformation and etc. So im still not good at it but i will keep looking, reading etc. 

I have not yet seen a pedigree before, so i guess i better start learning.

And no i have not heard of the Poodle Pedigree Database and the Poodle Health Registry yet, but i will get to it now.

Hopefully these answers dont sound to horrible.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Amanda...your heart is in the right place, and I admire you for doing your due diligence before jumping into this. I would suggest s others have, going out to some shows and trying to hook up with a breeder, in hopes of finding a mentor. Please be sure you are dealing with someone ethical as there are lots of smarmy people out there. I think it would be very difficult to buy quality dogs without having the weight of a known breeder behind you. Here is a link to a site which will tell you all of the conformation and performance events in your area. Canuck Dogs: Your source for Canadian dog event information online. I agree too, you need full time, reliable employment. Breeding dogs is very expensive. With Standards, you would be looking at $1,800 to $4,000 for a bitch with open registration. Testing and posting testing is nearly $1,000 per dog. Emergencies can happen to any of us which are big time costly. A stud service is $1,500 to $3,000. Showing a dog to its championship, with a handler, can be $1,000 to $5,000 if the dog is decent. This is not for the faint of heart.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

We should introduce Amanda to Keith. He'd be 'bout ready to mentor a junior.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Interested in horses and dogs.. that's a terrific common interest for learning about proper structure. There are a few books out for canine structure, a couple of fairly decent ones. But there are LOTS of excellent books out regarding horse structure. Here's the deal... structure is structure. How it all connects together, how it works is what gives an animal the ability to do what they do. It's what makes an animal move elegantly, a horse move smoothly, or not. Improper structure can cause arthritis and disability in animals. 
To learn about structure you'll need to learn some basics about how bones and muscles work together and attach. If you don't know what makes correct structure, it's impossible to intentionally select parent dogs who have a likely hood of producing correct structure. It's also easy to pick a horse who is miserable to ride. 

So, recommendation number one:

Learn everything you can about structure and movement. Great resources are HORSE books. There are also some interesting videos on you tube. Some correct, some not. It takes a while to develop an eye so that you see individual traits of an animal, not just the whole animal. 

Recommendation number two:

Learn everything you can about poodles. A great starting place is the Poodle History Project by Emily Cain. Read it, re-read it, until you know the information there very well. Responsible breeders recognize and carry on the work that has been done in the past and build on it for the future. Poodle History Project

Recommendation number three:

Learn everything you can about genetics. Start with the basics, Mendelian Genetics and work your way up through population genetics. An understanding of Mendelian genetics will give you the ability to predict how simple recessive genes, like Von Willebrands is inherited and when a dog is a clear, carrier, or affected, so that you can plan safe breedings. Population Genetics will give you insight into issues such as inbreeding and how it is impacting the breed as a whole.

Recommendation number four:

Learn (and practice) everything you can about how animals learn and training techniques. I'm an avid advocate for operant conditioning (frequently referred to as clicker training) and there are lots of great resources online as well as many books available.

Recommendation number five:

Learn how to read pedigrees and what they mean. A pedigree is basically a family tree. But when you are a breeder, those pedigrees often hold clues which need to be taken into consideration when breeding in order to avoid heallth issues.

Recommendation number six:

Learn to recognize fact from opinion. Educate yourself on as much as possible and make your own decisions. DO find a mentor, but remember that you are ultimately responsible for your decisions. 

Recommendation number seven:

Do as much learning as you can, before you even consider obtaining a dog. With breeding comes much more responsibility than simply owning a dog. The future of the breed rests in the hands of breeders. When you think you are ready to choose a foundation animal for your breeding program, it's not as simple as merely buying a dog, I would encourage you to contact everyone with relatives to that dog to find out what the actual health history in the family is, for as many generations as possible AND... I would also encourage you to obtain your own pedigree program so that you can take notes and keep them. Health issues you find out about, what lines, what specific health issue, what dog, who told you, what their information source was and whether or not it's OK to share the information. May sound like a waste of time, when maybe a certain dogs aren't really of interest to you, but once you are breeding and a couple of generations out, looking for dogs to breed to, you're going to want to know this.. I promise! Before you get a pedigree program, I would encourage you to set up notebooks and keep notes on all the above information.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Recommendation number eight:

Learn everything you can about health issues. I would go further on this than just book learning. TALK to people who own poodles having health issues, find out from them how it feels when things go wrong, whether or not their breeder's were helpful to them when things went bad. Think about how you are going to react when a health issue rears it's ugly head.. and if you breed, sooner or later it will.

Recommendation number nine:

Review sales/breeding contracts, decide what you are going to have in yours. What does the law require of you?

Hmmmm... my recommendations could go on, like I said.. I could write bookS!

Hope this helps.
Darla


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you sooooo much everyone. I can't believe how helpful you have all been. And I actually have started to learn horse conformation since I maybe come a exercise rider and have to take a writen test as well. Plus I'm sure when I get into vet school it will help me ou a lot on the genetics and structure factor. I will look into everything everyone has said, and every link etc. I wil keep trying to find sows and anything that may help me out on the way. And of course those suggestions are great. Hank you all so much.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Amanda, I can't help you with breeding info but I want to commend you for being so focused on building an animal-centered career at this young age. The breeder's life always sounds so hard to me, not just because it barely pays but because you have to let the puppies go. Don't think I could handle that but I am glad there are those who can. Good luck finding a breeder to apprentice with and getting the knowledge you need.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

You're Welcome!

There are a lot of "bad" breeder's out there ( I tend to think that breeder's fall along a spectrum of good to bad, it's not just as simple as labeling them either/or), and not so many good ones.

Remember what I said about the future of breeds being in the hands of the breeders? If you are going to be one of the "next generation" then for the sake of all of the good breeders who have come before you and for the sake of the breed... We want you to be good... really, really good! <VBG>

If you are into reading chat group archives, there is a yahoo group which may interest you--Standard Poodle Proteges. It gets into some of the basics, including things such as reading pedigrees. It is now inactive, but there are a lot of good discussions and you can get the feel of what it's like to interact with breeders. Many of the discussions on that group such as those on genetics/pedigrees/structure apply to any size poodle, so you may find them of interest.

Darla


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I am a bit late joining this discussion, but I have a suggestion, too. When I first decided that I wanted to show dogs, there was no one close by that had 'my' breed. So, I found a local show breeder of a different breed and hung out with her. I was honest with her as far as liking her dogs, but wanting to get involved with a different breed. What I did for her was basic grooming - baths, toenail trims, etc; cleaned the kennel and yards, helped with the puppies and even babysat with dogs left at home when she showed. At times, I would travel to shows with her to help walk dogs, carry stuff and general grunt work. While at the shows, I was able to also network and with the years I put into helping her, ended up with her as a great reference when I finally found my show puppy. 

Strangly enough, after all that time with those two different breeds and showing mine, I ended up finding a breed (or two) that I liked even better and am now working with a breeder of working Kelpies. I no longer show (Kelpies are not recognized by AKC here and we don't want them to be). My kelpies are performence bred only. We health test, work them (herding mostly, some tracking, agility - whatever) etc, but we don't show. I have joined a genetics forum that is actually oriented around a different breed again, but the basics are there and I have learned a lot. 

The vet tech training is a good start - I have an associates degree in that field as well, but it does not even begin to get you where you need to be for breeding. Most of the knowledge you will need is going to have to come on your own with mentors and hours upon hours of research. I bought my first show dog in 1997, I am still researching and trying to learn about breeding. 

Best wishes for a wonderful new obsession.


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## Amanda1472 (Aug 30, 2012)

Thank you so much. I guess any start is better then nothing. I will see if maybe there is someone close by who will help me out even though i will want to show a different breed. And hopefully i will have to courage to take my driving test so i can do things on my own and really be able to go places. I probably wont be able to do much till i do get my full license, but hopefully i can start doing more on hands things with in a month or two. Thank you everyone for all your support.


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