# Getting into spats at the dog park :(



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Sonya has started getting into mild "disagreements" at the dog park. She is 10 months old now. She never starts fights, and I don't think that she even realizes that its happening until another dog is all over her. But at that point, she won't back down. 

I think the reason that this happens is because Sonya decides she wants to play with a certain dog (and she always seems to pick the most timid, nervous, reactive dog there) and when they don't want to play, she bugs them until they lash out at her. She is a little OCD when it comes to things like this, and she just will not relent. 

Any advice on dealing with this? She loves other dogs and the dog park, and has never shown any hint of aggression towards other dogs. She just stands up for herself if challenged and I am afraid she is going to get hurt (she is a teeny standard at only 35lb, and has a bad habit of picking on dogs much larger than she is). I hate to have to stop taking her to the park because of this


----------



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I have a 15 lb Yorkiex that was exactly like this. And like you I love the dog park. A trainer I met at the park recommended the NILIF to me for him 12 years ago and it made a huge difference. Calmed him right down,made him realize I was in charge, and even at this age (13 years) if I relax it too much, his attitude returns, and we start having problems at the park again. With NILIF, I'm sure he's thinking "she's gonna rip me out of here and the fun's over  I found this site with a great explanation on a previous post Nothing in Life is Free


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Thank you! I will definitely check that out. She isn't ever aggressive at all, she just gets a bit of an attitude and I think that the body language she is giving off sometimes encourages aggression in other dogs. She has only gotten into spats like this a couple of times, but I want to fix the problem before it becomes a problem. I don't currently have a fenced yard, so the dog park is the highlight of most of her days. 

I do want to add that I have been taking her to dog parks since she was 4 months old and fully vaccinated. She is an incredibly friendly, social dog and loves all dogs. Too bad not all dogs love her back. She has great recall, and I can call her away from dogs that I think may cause problems, but I want her to understand that she doesn't always need to be the boss and she can just walk away from a fight.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Sorry to post again, but I just read over the page that you linked me too... and that is exactly what she is doing! 

Sonya is in training to be a service dog, and at the age of 4 months she discovered that if we were walking around in a store and just nudged someone's hand or leg, that they would pay attention to her. It is something that we have worked long and hard to correct, because it is completely unacceptable for a service dog to be soliciting attention from strangers in a store. She has made improvements for this, but she still solicits attention from me and anyone else that she thinks might give it to her when she is "off duty". 

She does the same thing to my boyfriends labrador and my cat. If they don't want to play, she nudges them, play bites, and jumps around like a lunatic until someone gives her attention. I don't guess I ever put two and two together and figured out that this is EXACTLY what she is doing at the dog park. She is soliciting for attention. She also gets mad if we go to the park with a dog who is her "friend" and they try to play with another dog. She will interfere, bark, whatever it takes to be back in the center of the attention. 

We are going to be implementing this ASAP. I am going to try to be very consistent in not allowing her to demand my attention, and I am also going to try and interfere if she starts to demand attention from the other animals in the house. What would be the best way to do this? Call her away from them and have her sit/stay near me? Any suggestions?


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Ruff Love is a great book on the NILIF program to check out.

Good luck with your pushy girl! 

--Q


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Oooh thanks! I love reading dog books. This one is up next on my reading list!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

She does sound very bolshy teenager. I find it interesting that she is picking nervous dogs to bully - and frankly that's what it is! Suzanne Clothier's "He only wants to say Hi!" is a good read.

Do you know any large, well socialised dogs that can help you to teach her better manners? It will mean some growls and snaps if she oversteps the boundaries of polite canine behaviour now that her puppy licence has run out, but better that than her behaviour getting her into real trouble later on.


----------



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I just read Suzanne Clothier's article. Very interesting! I don't know how many times I have heard this in the past! And how many times I've looked at my dog and asked "Now what was that about?" With my pup turning 5 months this week, and us spending LOTS of time at the off leash park, this was a very timely read! So far Russell is very good at reading who is good to play with and who he needs to avoid (or at least tone down the play style) but as I well know that can change overnight. And I am consistently warning people that my dog is only 5 months in case their dog is not so good with puppies.  Big thanks to fjm!


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

It's sort of interesting that at 10 months old your girl is not appropriately responding to dog "language," especially since she has been exposed to lots of dogs from a young age. All puppies can be annoying to older dogs, some more than others. But they usually start to get the message by this age. My mini was a particularly annoying puppy and he was often snapped at, growled at, etc., for pesting another dog. He eventually learned the ropes and now actually responds to just a raised lip from another dog--he'll just walk away and find another dog to play with. But it seems like your girl is being pesty and when the other dog says enough, she doesn't get the message?


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> It's sort of interesting that at 10 months old your girl is not appropriately responding to dog "language," especially since she has been exposed to lots of dogs from a young age. All puppies can be annoying to older dogs, some more than others. But they usually start to get the message by this age. My mini was a particularly annoying puppy and he was often snapped at, growled at, etc., for pesting another dog. He eventually learned the ropes and now actually responds to just a raised lip from another dog--he'll just walk away and find another dog to play with. But it seems like your girl is being pesty and when the other dog says enough, she doesn't get the message?


That is exactly what it seems like to me. I know it sounds crazy, but I think she oblivious to what the other dogs are trying to tell her. I would have thought she would understand dog language by the age of 10 months. She is definitely no longer a "puppy" and is rapidly entering big girl world, so she needs to step it up and learn the language! So yeah, she definitely doesn't get the message when another dog starts giving off subtle warning signs that they have had enough of her and she needs to back off. Unfortunately I don't know if this is something that I can teach her, as a silly clumsy vocal human! 

She also never had any problems as a puppy, and this has only started in the last month. Maybe she hit that age where adult dogs decide they aren't putting up with puppy nonsense from her, and she hasn't realized that yet?


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

What does she do exactly when a dog tells her to back off? Maybe she is just slow on the uptake? My mini was a little dense that way, it did take him some time to figure out dog language. Even now at 18 months he's kind of immature, still very puppyish.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

She usually will just keep on at whatever she was doing. If she was chasing she will keep running up to the dog head first (when they don't move, she either plows over them or darts off to the side in order to encourage them to chase her; she is a little clumsy and sometimes has a hard time finding her legs in time to stop). 

If it is a more relaxed type of play, she will usually go down on her front legs (with her butt in the air, typical "come play with me" posture) and try to encourage play that way. She will also do her "chompy teeth" (see explanation below) like she is trying to get them to "come and get her". 

If these methods don't work then she will get right up in their face and start nudging them with her nose or try and start puppy-wrestling with them. This is usually when the problems start to occur. Sometimes she will just be running around and notice a dog and just run at them. The other dog has one of those "holy cow!" looks on its face, doesn't move, and Sonya plows right in to them and then gets told off rather harshly by the poor dog she just ran over  

About the chompy teeth: 
Every since I got her at 3 months old, she has always done this thing with her teeth when she gets really excited. She pulls her lips back and just clicks her teeth together rapidly. She isn't "snapping" at the other dogs, but it LOOKS mean. She does this same thing if we are in the middle of a really fun training session, if she is anticipating being thrown a tennis ball, or if I have a treat in my hand. She also sometimes does this while sitting and waiting for her food. Her nickname as a puppy was "chompers" because she always got so excited and started to "chomp" her teeth together. It's kind of like wagging her tail, something she can't seem to control when she is really happy or excited. I tried and tried to discourage her from it as a puppy, to no avail. Could other dogs be misinterpreting this? I don't really think it looks "mean" to other dogs. I think it just looks "mean" to other people, but I could be wrong.


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Fonzie is almost 2, and he's still clueless on how to behave properly around other dogs. He slams into our other 3 dogs in the yard, even if it results in a fight. He's been nailed by our lab, and also by Potsie. My poor MIL's dog, Rosie, has snapped at him, too. I think that the other dogs need to really nail him, but I don't want any blood!

When my daughter dog-sat him last week, he lit into her dog, Nola (a morkie), when Nola jumped up onto my daughter's bed to go to sleep, like she had always done. Fortunately, Nola didn't take any c***, and she lit right back into Fonzie, and they went rolling onto the floor, where Nola pinned Fonzie to the floor by his neck! I wish our dogs would do that to him, so he'd learn some manners! 

Fonzie is a SEVERE parvo survivor, and I really think that his brain got damaged during his sickness, b/c the boy's not right! My daughter told us after dog-sitting him, that she didn't know how we did it! Sometimes, I don't know either...I use NILIF with all my dogs, but Fonzie's a real challenge.


----------



## caboodles (Jan 7, 2011)

OHHH MYYYY!!!! It sounds like our dogs would be the best of friends at the park!!

I had the EXACT same issues with Winston earlier on (he's now 15 months... so it was around the 9-10 month mark as well). At the park, if it were just him and I and a ball.. he was happy happy happy.. But when a dog would come along, all of a sudden he became "someone else".. and would go over to meet them (when I gave him permission to do so.. because I did not want him running up to just every dog he sees), and then it was NON STOP BOW -And BARK invitations to play.

Winston is NOT a barker AT ALL.. but when he would be with another dog.. in the park.. all of a sudden his vocal cords got much use!! I tried a few things with him, of course saying "NO' and then putting him on his side lying down (which makes them submit and calm down in the situation).. but even after he would calm down, he would be back to the good ol' playful self! It was annoying too, as I'm sure you know.. because other dogs would growl, or whatever.. and he just wouldn't back off!! My biggest fear was that one day, a dog would say enough-is-enough and snap back at him....

LEAVE IT UP TO THE POWER OF THE PACK...
what I mean is, to find an older/senior dog who will teach her the ropes.

Backing on to the park was a man and his 12 year old standard, Lexi. Honestly... I couldn't tell you HOW quickly Winston's behaviour changed after spending more and more time with her. YEAHHH, in the beginning her would do his bow-n-bark invitation to her, and obviously she didn't want to play... But there was SOMETHING about the way she communicated to him the message, "LOOK, leave me alone and back off!" that he understood her and obeyed. I think it was the way she would bark back, and when close enough, would actually NUDGE his stomach area with her nose, just like on the Cesar Millan show.. that he FINALLY understood, "HMM.. I guess ALL dogs don't want to play with me!"

I was just SO impressed with his instant transformation.. Well, not instant EXACTLY. It did take several park dates with her for him to learn, but it was just UNREAL. It was almost as if she represented sort of like a mother figure to him, and even though she was only 45lbs to his then 65lbs, she had complete control over his behaviour. He always was a complete charming man when he was with her... and even without her, he continued on his learned behaviours with others dogs he would meet at the park..

I hope that helps!!


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I may have forgotten to mention that she barks also! Sometimes she barks when she is play-bowing, sometimes she will just stand and bark in another dog's face if they don't want to play with her. She is such a brat! And her bark is SOOOOOOO loud and annoying. Like yours, she isn't really a barker in other situations. 

I will have to see if I can track down a good dog to help teach her some manners. My boyfriend has a labrador, but he is just so mellow and docile that he will put up with her nonsense. Most of the dogs she plays with on a regular basis are very chill, docile dogs that don't pay any attention to her brattiness and just let her get by with it.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You can help to teach her good manners - if she is polite, she gets to say hello. If she is bratty, she gets leashed and walked away. Even just a few yards may be enough. Poppy learned to bark at other dogs we meet from a friend's dog I walk - but they have both now learned that barking = turn around and walk away - several times if necessary. Moving away from the source of excitement calms them down, and if she wants to play, I insist she asks politely. If the other dog is not happy about it, I call her away, and we move on. 

It may be more difficult in a small enclosed dog park - perhaps a brief timeout outside the fence would work? The key is to ensure that the consequence comes immediately after the behaviour, with no noise or fuss from you, and to be absolutely consistent.


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

There is a real business opportunity out there for people with biggish, stable, safe adult dogs that won't hurt stroppy teenage dogs, but WILL put the fear of God into them ... nothing teaches a teenage dog bully manners faster than being solidly put in his place by a bigger adult dog.

I was lucky that there was an adult (intact :frown male Boxer in my neighborhood ... we were in the park one day when Vasco was a bossy teenager, and V made the mistake of trying to sass the Boxer, who snarled alarmingly and literally SAT on him. Didn't hurt him, but certainly made an impression.

Without a dog to act as a teacher, I like fjm's idea ... make a clear connection between good behaviour = fun and bad behaviour = no more fun.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Thanks so much for the advice and support everyone. I have been incorporating the "NILIF" principles into home behaviors, with myself and my roommate as well as the cat and my roommates dog. She gets pushy or noisy, she goes in time out and doesn't get to play. We went to the dog park again this past Wednesday, and she was actually much better. There was a 6 month old Catahoula mix puppy that was very timid, and I just knew Sonya was going to bug the crap out of her. But she didn't. She tried to play for a moment, and when the pup went and hid under a bench, Sonya just walked away and found someone else to play with. A couple of other dogs got snarky with each other while we were there. Sonya always wants to get into the middle of these things and play "moderator" but I called her off both times it happened and she calmly walked away. 

We are going to keep working on it, but I actually feel like she is making progress already! Thanks so much to everyone here for the great advice and support. So glad I found this forum!


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Sookster said:


> Thanks so much for the advice and support everyone. I have been incorporating the "NILIF" principles into home behaviors, with myself and my roommate as well as the cat and my roommates dog. She gets pushy or noisy, she goes in time out and doesn't get to play. We went to the dog park again this past Wednesday, and she was actually much better. There was a 6 month old Catahoula mix puppy that was very timid, and I just knew Sonya was going to bug the crap out of her. But she didn't. She tried to play for a moment, and when the pup went and hid under a bench, Sonya just walked away and found someone else to play with. A couple of other dogs got snarky with each other while we were there. Sonya always wants to get into the middle of these things and play "moderator" but I called her off both times it happened and she calmly walked away.
> 
> We are going to keep working on it, but I actually feel like she is making progress already! Thanks so much to everyone here for the great advice and support. So glad I found this forum!


Sounds like you have made a great start at handling the situation already. Just keep up the good work and don't get discouraged if it takes a while.


----------



## PhaedraAllen (Feb 22, 2011)

OMG!! Is this a poodle trait? My guy does this exactly. I call it the "nose-punch" because he does it so hard. I fear for my poor geriatric cat...he has to be bruised up due to the nose-punching and back-biting.

It is MOST inappropriate given that he is right at butt height. I will never forget when we took him to an outside diner and when the waitress had her back turned, he nose-punched her right in her privates. She turned around and gave my husband a dirty look. We laughed as we explained his bad habit, but it was still quite embarassing.

I'm gonna look into this NILF method now. Good post...thanks!


----------



## PhaedraAllen (Feb 22, 2011)

Jasper does this at the dog park also. He picks and picks and picks on other dogs like he is egging them on to chase him. I have been told that the chasee is the dominant one. He picks until they turn and either chase him, which he loves. Or they snap at him, in which case he will turn his butt to the dog real fast and look over his shoulder as if to say...you gonna chase me? Drives me crazy.

I always ask the other dog owner to tell me if he is being too hard on their dog, as I would like the dogs to communicate with each other before I try to decipher what their body language is saying. If an owner feels Jasper is being too aggressive for their dog, we take Jasper out of the park, walk him around for 20 minutes and come back. Then his attention is usually on some other dog.

There are a few older dogs that have put him in his place and he has left them alone ever since.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

"Nose punch" is a good description of it! But I know that her play "bites" are highly inhibited and controlled, because she plays in the same manner with my cat and he never yowls or hisses or acts like it is bothering him, so she isn't hurting him. She just can be annoying if they don't like it, apparently the cat doesn't mind.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

PhaedraAllen said:


> Jasper does this at the dog park also. He picks and picks and picks on other dogs like he is egging them on to chase him. I have been told that the chasee is the dominant one. He picks until they turn and either chase him, which he loves. Or they snap at him, in which case he will turn his butt to the dog real fast and look over his shoulder as if to say...you gonna chase me? Drives me crazy.


That sounds like exactly what Sonya is doing. She WANTS them to chase her.


----------

