# Dolly's first agility class wasn't great



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I took Dolly to her first beginner agility class last night and it wasn't an especially positive experience. I wasn't late, but we were the last ones to arrive (I hate that), and the first thing that happened was a GSD went snake at her barking and lunging. She handled that ok (better than me) and we just went on the other side of the room. I soon realized he was very reactive and was doing it to all the other dogs that came near him. We started out with our own low jump getting them to go back and forth over it, and out of nowhere a border collie came at her snarling. I had my back to them and didn't see him coming, the guy laughed and said "oh he just wants to herd her". It happened twice more before the trainer told him to keep his dog under control and away from Dolly, which he wasn't very affective at for the remainder of the class. Dolly did really well at keeping focused on me and doing what I asked, but I'm not sure she loved it. I don't know if it was everything going on or that agility just isn't her thing. We mainly just introduced them to different agility equipment, a plank on the ground, low teeter which they just stepped on to get use to the loud noise etc.. The teeter noise didn't effect her at all, but when another dog banged it down it coincided with another attack from the BC, after that she wouldn't step on the teeter at all. She was without a doubt the best behaved dog there, and I was very proud how she kept her focus on me, but I'm not sure I want to return, or should return. After class the trainer told me before I arrived they made sure the BC wasn't aggressive to the other dogs, so I guess the owner new he had issues. She also said to see how it goes next week and if it's still an issue I can wait for the next class, but Dolly wasn't the problem. I guess I've got a week to think about it but I'm just not sure what to do.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

A good trainer will put the safety of the dogs in the class first. If you feel like this trainer is not prioritizing safety, then get out of the class. You need to protect Dolly, and unfortunately, I have seen otherwise capable trainers keep dangerous dogs in a class, sometimes for the money and sometimes because they think they can help the dog/owner. But if you feel unsafe, and especially if Dolly feels unsafe, then I would leave.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Liz said:


> A good trainer will put the safety of the dogs in the class first. If you feel like this trainer is not prioritizing safety, then get out of the class. You need to protect Dolly, and unfortunately, I have seen otherwise capable trainers keep dangerous dogs in a class, sometimes for the money and sometimes because they think they can help the dog/owner. But if you feel unsafe, and especially if Dolly feels unsafe, then I would leave.


Liz expressed it well. Classes like this are not appropriate for reactive/aggressive dogs.

OMG, I have never been in a class with aggressive dogs like this. It's not your dog that should leave the class, it's the border collie (BC) and probably the German Shepherd Dog. Maybe the trainer didn't think it through properly in the heat of the moment but will come to their senses and change their mind about who stays? Unless they have another trainer, I would ask for your money back as this is not a good trainer.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, and I would think that the owner of the reactive dog would be smart enough to give his dog enough space to prevent the dog from becoming reactive. Proper handling on the part of the owner can make a huge difference. Agility can be an arousing sport and with that can come reactive behavior. Unless that dog is actually dog aggressive (and maybe he is) I think the issue is less that the dog who was reactive shouldn't be in class and more that the dog needs an owner who advocates for him and creates a situation where his dog has enough space from other dogs and proper focus on his owner. And who responds not by saying "oh he just wants to herd you" but by taking steps to support proper behavior from his own dog. Of course, if he can't do that, then he should not be in the class. It's also important for the instructor to manage class so that EVERY dog in class has their own space to feel comfortable working. Every owner should also be taking steps to make sure their dog doesn't get into the personal bubble of any other dog in class, also. So, there's that aspect to consider as well as you make a decision about whether or not this class is right for you.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear that. I've just started basic agility classes with Gustav. There are approx 12 dogs in the class, some very young and excitable (that includes Gustav who is 6 months old) so the classes can be quite noisy as the dogs get very excited. At the moment the classes are mainly based around body awareness, working on a good 'wait' and introducing some equipment slowly, all the time with the aim of getting your dog to focus on you with all the noise and distractions that are going on around, including lots of barking! We all keep our dogs on leads and are told not to let the dogs interact with each other, so they learn to work around other dogs without the need to play or get distracted by them. This is proving a little difficult for Gustav who is going through a reactive barky phase, so you might say he is one of those 'reactive' dogs in class, although he is in no way aggressive, so I work hard to keep him focused on me/the task in hand and every week he gets a bit better. It shocks me however that these people in your class are even allowed to let their dogs run over to other dogs during training, never mind the fact that they are doing it in an aggressive manner. Yes it is hard for dogs to focus when there is so much going on, but if they can't learn how to behave correctly in basic agility classes and are reacting in an aggressive way then in my opinion the owners should go back to some more basic obedience training classes!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Yay, Dolly for being the best behaved dog in class! I wish the GSD and the BC owners would do some soul searching on whether their dogs should be in class instead of you. It's a class not the dog park.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

The trainer/owner has never let interaction between dogs in a class before, and I think I'll have to talk to her about it. Even the friendly dogs were given the opportunity by their owners to wander on leash, they should have been told it's not a meet and greet class. The couple with the BC were probably in their late fifties, not particularly fit looking and not very experienced. I have no idea why they chose a high energy dog like a BC. The GSD people knew better how to handle him and I think he was more over excited than aggressive, they kept their distance and tried to focus his attention. I don't want to quit this class but I doubt anything will change with the BC, mainly because they just have no idea how to handle him. There was lots of room for everyone and no reason he should ever have got that close to us.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

This reminds me of my first agility class with Maizie. I can't remember if I mentioned that I was late and when we walked in some reactive doodle lunged at Maizie. That doesn't set a very nice tone. I'm sorry that happened to Dolly. I know you'll figure out what's the best way to handle it.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

On another note, DH said Abbey was not happy while we were gone and wouldn't even sit with him. Then when we got home she sniffed Dolly, walked past me and went to bed. I'm pretty sure I know what she said as she passed me by, but I gave her some cuddle time and all was forgiven.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

Caddy said:


> The trainer/owner has never let interaction between dogs in a class before, and I think I'll have to talk to her about it. Even the friendly dogs were given the opportunity by their owners to wander on leash, they should have been told it's not a meet and greet class. The couple with the BC were probably in their late fifties, not particularly fit looking and not very experienced. I have no idea why they chose a high energy dog like a BC. The GSD people knew better how to handle him and I think he was more over excited than aggressive, they kept their distance and tried to focus his attention. I don't want to quit this class but I doubt anything will change with the BC, mainly because they just have no idea how to handle him. There was lots of room for everyone and no reason he should ever have got that close to us.


I'd give the class another go and just have a word with the instructor. I would just politely ask her to clarify what the rules are on letting the dogs interact or wander off leash, as it was making your dog frightened and distracted and you're afraid it may not be the right class for you if this is how it normally works.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

UKpoodle said:


> I'd give the class another go and just have a word with the instructor. I would just politely ask her to clarify what the rules are on letting the dogs interact or wander off leash, as it was making your dog frightened and distracted and you're afraid it may not be the right class for you if this is how it normally works.


You might consider emailing the instructor, to have this conversation ahead of the next class. Just in case you are shocked by the answers and find them completely unacceptable.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Managing group classes is challenging, especially when the class is meeting for the first time. Although I always have some information about the dogs that are starting a new beginner obedience class with me mostly I don't know anything about the people or even really what their goals for their dogs are. I always spend some time before we start activities talking with the people to ask about their concerns and goals and to give me a general characterization of their dog. Whenever we introduce anything new I always talk about how we will manage safety. This might be about leaving enough space if everyone is working at the same time or even have teams work one at a time. I emphasize that safety of all concerned is an important part of our success.

I have sometimes suggested to people who call to inquire about taking a beginner class with us that they do some private training before coming to class. Our classes are not intended as a setting for improving the behavior of a reactive or poorly socialized dog. Then again while our club does need students and members taking classes to pay our rent and other bills, we are a not for profit organization so taking in profits is not part of our concern. It makes it easier to make the suggestion to hire someone privately when someone calls talking about their reactive dog and the need to have someone train it.

In terms of the discussion above, I agree with much of what Liz said, but I also agree with Charismatic Millie that just because a dog is reactive or has other issues shouldn't exclude that team from taking a class. It is up to the trainer/instructor to make sure everyone feels safe and welcome and that the class is productive for all concerned.

I would get in touch with the trainer sooner than later and voice your concerns. Ask her to tell you specifically what she will do to manage the concerns regarding the GSD and the BC to enable you and Dolly to have good experiences. I would give it a couple of weeks to decide whether Dolly actually likes the sport or not.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I did speak to the trainer before our second class, and she agreed to change the BC to another class instead of moving Dolly if the behaviour continued. It turned out to be a non issue as the BC didn't show up for the second class, and I must admit to being relieved. The GSD was still pretty reactive to anything that moved, barking and lunging but they do try to focus him and don't let him reach other dogs. The third class this past week the BC showed up again, the trainer gave them a head halter to use so he'd have more control over his dog, he put it on but then removed it saying he could hold him back. There were stations set up for each of us to try different equipment, while she was explaining them the BC was fixed on the GSD, bad combo. I chose the position furthest from the BC by the exit gate and began, I had Dolly in a sit before starting (our backs to the gate) when out of nowhere the BC was on her, I literally had to lift her by the leash to get her away. I turned to see them leave, his hand was bleeding, I don't know if it was bleeding before and that's why they were going out the gate or if it happened when the BC went after Dolly. I was just glad to see them leave and they will not be returning. Dolly wasn't hurt and recovered quickly, faster than me, and was a rock star after that. I'm annoyed we were put in that position and I will be more insistent if ever faced with a situation like that again. I do feel badly for the BC, he definitely needs people better suited to his needs and breed, and I'm sure he'll end up in a shelter at some point which is sad.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I sure had some catching up to do reading through this. Well, you've been through the ringer. I think it sounds like things might be settling down here pretty soon. Hang in there if you feel safe and that you can have an enjoyable class. Yep...dogs that are so disruptive really need to go through a more basic class first...socialization etc. So hopefully...

I hope that guy with the BC gets some help. These dogs are meant to work! People just don't realize what they're getting themselves into sometimes with certain breeds. 

I sure hope things will go better for you from now on.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm sorry you and Dolly had another bad experience but hopefully it'll all be positive from now on. Sounds like she took it very well at least anyway!


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

So sorry you and Dolly were put through that. Grrr....


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

It pretty much sounds like things are sorting themselves out now that the BC is gone......I feel sorry for it though, it sounds like the owners are just not capable of owning such a 'must have a job' breed! That Dolly rocked it is no surprise at all though!!! Hope she does well and enjoys it!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'm really sorry the trainers didn't step up to prevent this, but I'm glad that it didn't end worse.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

The trainer told me she'd had one private class with them, their concern being the dog practically lived in the attached garage because it was scared of the cat and wouldn't come in the house. They also said he was scared to go in their back yard and they didn't know why, seems very odd to me. My thought is these people are clueless about dogs and especially a border collie, it's such a shame. They also didn't seem to be receptive to any help and are in denial, the first week they smiled at me and said "oh he just wants to herd her", yeah nope, I don't think so. I think it's pretty clear this dog has had little to no socialization, and probably lives a very lonely inactive life.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

You were wise to choose to stay as far away from these kinds of dogs in class - but OMG I can imagine how scared you were when this BC attacked. I'm so glad that Dolly recovered quickly and wasn't hurt physically or mentally and you were able to finish the class. With the BC gone maybe the GSD will be less reactive too? Hopefully the trainer now, after that experience, will be more attentive to behavior problems with dogs and owners to help them behave appropriately in class.

I too hope the owners of this BC get serious help to work with their dog. But I suspect you're right and it will end up in a rescue organization. Maybe that's a good thing if the dog ends up in the right situation.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am glad Dolly is okay, but I feel really badly for the BC. I hope they give him up to someone who gets it before they totally ruin the dog.

Hopefully the trainer will take a life lesson out of all this and make sure they place dogs appropriate to what they can do, what their owner's understand etc., rather than just trying to fill a class.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Or take classes in Rally.  

In Novice none of the troublemakers even get off leash. 

Muahahaha. :devil:


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I have dabbled in rally with both girls, and likely will again. I had more trouble with the signs than the girls had following what I was doing, lol, but I will give it another try. The BC was never off leash, his owner was not able to hold him or understand the gravity of the situation.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

The whole situation with the BC seems like a disaster. Obviously the owner is in way over their head (or just not willing to do the work...). But it seems to me that the trainer kind of mishandled the situation. Why was the owner allowed to remove the head halter? Why was the dog ever in that class in the first place if the trainer knew about the issues it was dealing with at home? Anyway, that's just all-round sad. The dog is the one losing. 

But I'm glad things are now straightened out for you. I hope the GSD can chill out now and everything will be smooth sailing.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

rj16 you see this as I do I think. The person running the class has a responsibility to keep everyone safe in addition to the teaching/training. That can mean telling some people not to come to any class, not just an agility class. The BC would have been a train wreck in a rally class too since the dog's problems are being exacerbated by the poor skills of his owner. 

I don't think it is fair to characterize rally as the sport to go to when you don't have the skills to do anything else. Just because you can talk to your dog and it stays on leash in novice doesn't mean it is not challenging. There is a lot to learn to do rally well enough to earn advanced and excellent along with RAE titles. Tell the 159 other teams entered for RAE rally this week in Georgia that rally is the idiot sport of the dog world and they will disagree with you as do I.

When I have a beginner or a novice class with more than one dog the whole dynamic of what I do changes because now I am managing dog interactions and not just teaching a person how to do something new with their dog. I am always watching for dog to dog eye contact, intention moves by dogs towards other dogs or people and handlers who are not engaged with seeking focused attention from their dog along with a myriad of other small things which will be better nipped in the bud before they become full fledged out of control disasters. So far (over a year) I haven't been bitten and I haven't had dog to dog contact more than once in all of my beginner and novice groups.

I think the GSD is likely to settle now that the energy of the BC team is out of the mix. As he gets better agility skills he will become happy to focus on his work.


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## pudellvr (Dec 1, 2016)

I really appreciate that the training class I am in has 2 trainers. The class is also limited to 6 teams. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I absolutely agree that the real fault here lies with the trainer, who is also the owner of the facility. I also think that filling the class had something to do with the initial decision to allow this team in. I've taken many classes here, and there have been issues before but never to this extent. There aren't a lot of choices in my area for trainers who use positive training methods, or that have a decent facility to train at. There's a new one opening up soon and I'm anxious to try it out.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

Caddy said:


> I absolutely agree that the real fault here lies with the trainer, who is also the owner of the facility. I also think that filling the class had something to do with the initial decision to allow this team in. I've taken many classes here, and there have been issues before but never to this extent. There aren't a lot of choices in my area for trainers who use positive training methods, or that have a decent facility to train at. There's a new one opening up soon and I'm anxious to try it out.


I know what you mean all too well. I think with trainers it is realistic to not expect them to be excellent at every aspect. The good teacher may not use the right training methods. The great dog trainer may not be good at classroom management. The one's good at managing conflicts like this may not be the best at training. In my case I've had to understand that my trainer follows a method I'm very happy with, is generous with her time, and patient with the humans _but_ (a) she doesn't 100% practice what she preaches and (b) is clueless when it comes to behavioural issues. I'll be trying out at least one alternative in the future to see if the equation works out better for me but in the meantime I'm just going in with a clear idea of her limitations. I hope for you that the new place opens soon and is a good fit!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hey Caddy, I'm really sad to hear how this turned out. Your experience was almost identical to one I had. The trainer allowed an uncontrolled lab into class - it wasn't the dog's fault, the owners had neglected the dog since they got it as a puppy (no socialization, no training, no exercise), and this was their last ditch effort to save the dog. From what I could tell, the wife wanted the dog and the husband didn't; the husband wouldn't allow the wife to spend any time or money on it. The wife was the one who brought the lab to the class and she seemed heartbroken over the dog. The situation understandably tore at the heartstrings of the two instructors, and they let the pair in. It was a rally class, and the dog couldn't even walk on a leash. During the first class, one of the instructors worked with the pair outside of the building, but during the second class, they were in the building with us. While Mia was in a down-stay and I was working at a distance, the lab jumped on Mia's back. Mia shrieked, I dove between the two dogs to separate them, and somehow they got the lab and the handler out of the building. I was furious - but even more so when the instructors told me that they were going to keep the lab and the handler in the class and that I would not get a refund if I withdrew. Of course I withdrew. This was completely unacceptable. This sort of dog has no business in a class with other students and dogs - it was way over threshold. My minimum expectation in any dog class is that the dogs are kept safe. I care far less about the ability of the instructor to train, than I do about how the instructor's prioritizes the safety of dogs.

I understand that the BC in your story was not necessarily as neglected as the lab in mine. However, you state that the BC was fixed on the GSD before the incident. If you picked this up, so should the instructors - it's a clear sign of potential trouble. Anyway, I have to run now, but the more trainers I meet, the more appalled I am at how few trainers think through potential conflicts in class and work to keep dogs and handlers safe.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Wow Liz that is just too damn stupid for words that you had to withdraw without any $$ consideration. 

In your case I feel for the wife and the lab, but I have to say it was probably pretty unrealistic for her to think her husband would come around if he really didn't want a dog. 

As mentioned above it is complicated to mange group dog classes, but it is possible to do so without disasters and hard feelings. On the first day of any beginner class I do I spend time talking to each handler about what they have indicated their needs and goals are on the registration form they fill out. While I do that I watch each team to see how the dog seems in overall temperament and for its attention to the handler, but also very importantly to the other dogs (and I make sure they are well spaced out wile I do this). I talk to them about the importance of not allowing their dog to stare at any other dogs (ever) and introduce the concept that centripetal attraction to handler and focused eye contact with handler are the keys to success.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Most students enter a class with the expectation of learning the material. But there's an implicit expectation that the instructor will keep them and their dogs safe. As I'm now in my third city in eight years, I've learned that few trainers actually devote much thought to ensuring the safety of their students.

I was spoiled by my first trainer. She's a behaviouralist and really worked through the dynamics of each class to keep everyone safe. Her building has a separate entrance and exit; teams are told to move away from the door when they enter; there are three kenneling areas, so that if a dog needs space, it can have it; she keeps class-size to six teams, fewer depending on the class; she learns every dog and handler in her class, allowing her to assess any potential risks; when she sees a dog who is above threshold she takes immediate action - often just asking the team to step outside to destress, but she may also teach the student some attention exercises. And then there are the two full-sized outdoor agility rings, with plenty of parking and in the middle of a large field where she held controlled-unleashed classes (I'm not sure if this course is still in vogue) and BAT sessions. I thought every trainer was a behaviouralist and every training facility was as well-equipped as hers.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Wow Liz that was a terrible experience for you, but to add insult to injury by not at bare minimum giving you a refund us awful. I also expect when I have paid 200.00 for 6 45 minute classes that at the very least myself and my dog are in a safe environment. I felt sorry for the BC and I feel sorry for that lab too, it's just so sad that there are so many dogs out there in bad situations. Dolly and I are just off to our agility class now, im glad the BC won't be there tonight, but I'll just really be glad when this class is over.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

We just got back from agility class and I think everyone was more relaxed with the BC not there (still feel bad for that dog). The GSD was still lunging and barking wildly at every dog that moved, so it wasn't the BC's presence that caused it. It's interesting to note when we ran through off leash his bad behaviour stopped, no barking and no lunging. Off leash aggression is being discussed on another thread, and this was a prime example of it. His disposition was like night and day, a total turn around and a totally different dog. Dolly is really enjoying agility which surprises me, I didn't think it was going to be thing at first.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

Oh my goodness, Liz! That is incomprehensible. Why on earth would the trainers think that was the class for that dog? The whole situation sounds like a disaster. And obviously the poor dog is the real loser. 

I'm so sorry you had to have that experience. I can't believe they wouldn't give you a refund...


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