# Frustrated... my dog is naughty off leash and sucks at greeting people... help. long



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I will give you ideas in the morning. You have a lot going on, but I think there are some common underlying issues. Since it is so late I don't think I can say too much coherent to address all your points.

Try not to be too frustrated (that becomes part of the problem).


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> I will give you ideas in the morning. You have a lot going on, but I think there are some common underlying issues. Since it is so late I don't think I can say too much coherent to address all your points.
> 
> 
> 
> Try not to be too frustrated (that becomes part of the problem).


Thank you. I know it's a lot of information. I wrote all that right after I got back from the beach incident, I feel better after cooling off some. We practiced with treats being polite and being in a sit stay while I pretend answered the door tonight. We will get there, one way or another! My Aussie is a hard dog to own sometimes. He's extremely pushy and persistent, and always has been. I know there's behavior problems with him that have followed over to my poodle... I just want well behaved, not spoiled bratty dogs :/ 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Positive Thoughts*

Brownlikewoah;

:bike:

I commend you for all that you do for Zora:

- Obedience Classes
- Agility
- Canine good citizen testing
- Taking Zora to the beach
- Lure coursing trials
- Riding a bike and having Zora run "perfectly" beside you, on a leash

Zora sounds like a highly intelligent, very social, prey-driven Poodle! I am very interested in seeing Catherine's Post tomorrow and reading her recommendations for you & Zora. HerdingStdPoodle


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think I would look for a good, certified trainer who could work one on one with me and both dogs, out and about in the situations that are causing you problems. In the meantime, it does occur to me that exercising the dogs separately would give you more control over Zora's energy, and remove the additional winding up from Austin while you are teaching her manners. And exercises in self control starting in the less distracting environment at home are always helpful!


----------



## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Your poodle has figured out that she can do what she wants off leash. At agility classes she breaks away to bounce around the instructor once or twice? I can see how that may be adorable but it's not a good thing at all.

If she were mine, I wouldn't let her off leash until she is reliable in coming back when called. I don't know if you are doing this but you cannot keep calling a dog that is ignoring you. I wouldn't even call it unless there were a very good chance that it was going to listen. Every time your dogs do what they want and you have no control, their bratty behavior is being reinforced. I would work with them separately until they were both reliable on recall. If you let her out to the chicken coup, don't call her back knowing she is not going to listen.

I don't know if you should quit agility but for me, getting them under control would be my priority. She needs to greet visitors politely and she can do that. Maybe you could have friends volunteer to come over for practice sessions. You said that you brought her to the beach and she behaved badly and you couldn't believe it, then you brought her back again, and had the same outcome. Two days of obedience work was not enough, they have shown you that. I have faith that they will get there though and I don't think it will take that long but you need to not put your dogs into situations where you don't have total control, i.e. off leash. Your dogs both sound like they are a lot of fun, even if you are a little frustrated right now.

Barbara


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok, now that I have sleep and some coffee in me, I reread your post. I do understand that part of it was venting and that is fine, but now in the light of a fresh day let's look at all of this bit by bit.

First you have to deal with the behavior of both dogs. Since the aussie is older you will need a lot of patience since that dog's behaviors are very entrenched. Part of why I have waited (still am) to add a new puppy is because I want Lily and Peeves to be helpers, not models of problem behaviors. I think fjm's suggestion of getting a good trainer to come to your home might be very helpful for getting an assessment of the things that need to be worked on and an outsider's read on the behavioral interactions of the dogs. Ultimately you have to get this all to work for yourself though.

Second, I would lose the water bottle completely. You say it helps some, but of course you can't always have a spray bottle so using it intermittently is not really going to retrain anything. Treats are ok for now, but should be converted to all or none rewards for only the best performances of behaviors for the aussie asap, and for Zora pretty quickly too since she is not a puppy.

Third, Zora is still a young dog. In my experience with Lily and in observation of other spoos they don't really seem to collect their heads until sometime between 2 and 3. This doesn't mean you excuse bad behavior because of her age, just that you need to understand her brain is likely still having chaotic moments. Clearly though there is lots that you have accomplished with her that is great and you should use those things to your advantage.

Since Zora has most of her behavior problems when she is off leash she is really not ready to be off leash. I would trust Lily off leash, but not Peeves even at age five. He has too strong a prey drive and loses interest in paying attention to me if not connected to me (I don't give harsh physical corrections, but he does benefit from feeling the pressure from the leash when he starts to lose attention to me), but I spend lots less time doing formal things with him. My criteria for being off leash is having strong enough centripetal attraction to be sure that the dog will stop what it is doing and do what I tell it to no matter what the distractions. Clearly Zora doesn't have that ability yet so you cannot let her off leash yet. You need to be able to 100% reliably call her off chasing birds and running off to greet people before you let her loose. The consequences of not doing so are potentially not having her anymore because she gets hit by a car or worse somebody claims she has bitten them when she really only accidentally grazed them with her teeth. It is more likely the "victim" will be believed in a situation like that if it is clear you didn't really have control of your dog.

I would work like heck on the foundational attention. If you look at my pictures from rally nationals you will see what I mean by centripetal attraction. In all but one of those pictures (the last one from last run of the day where Lily is looking away) you will see that she is looking at me even, for example, when going over a jump. Part of how I have developed that attention is by doing a little dance with Lily in many places where I put her at heel and then I take a couple of random steps and tell her to find front or return to heel. We zigzag around randomly and she is always having to find the position I am asking for. Now I don't feed her at all, but praise the most correct fronts or heel sits with praise and a pet. I don't acknowledge being out of position either way. Now I can call her back from anything. Last night I took her to school with me so that I could practice utility signals in the long hallway outside my office. She then went to class with me. I have 15 people in class who all wanted to play with her not just during lab where everyone is always moving around, but also in lecture where she wanted to go up and down the aisles to collect pets from everyone. Not only was I able to call her back to me, but we did signals in the lab and I had her do a demonstration on scent discrimination at the beginning of lecture (which happened to be about special senses). 

Another thing that has helped get that great attention is rally. In rally you can talk to the dog fairly freely. You can't beg or plead and you can't be harsh, but you can tell the dog when it has done something well and you can say oopsie let's do that again and get it right and retry a station.

I would put agility on the back burner for a while. Zora has not shown that she is ready to pay attention to you off leash and you will end up with more problems than you want to have to deal with when you are really ready to think about entering trials. You don't want her to think it is ok to do her own course, do fly offs from contacts or break her start line stay (all issues I've dealt with with Lily). Try rally. It is lots of fun and is all about building a team relationship. 

I hope I hit all of the points I needed to, but if I missed something just ask again. Zora sounds like a great dog with a bit of a diamond in the rough aspect to her. Be patient, persistent and consistent and she will shine. brightly.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

brownlikewoah said:


> Things were going well..... until I had them lay down and stay, and a guy came up from behind and said "HI!!!!" at which point my two dogs broke their stay, poodle barked first, then the aussie, and they both went barreling at the guy, friendly, to say hi... but people don't know that... of course then my poodle was so excited and jumping all around... and just horrible. The guy yelled at us and said that if my dog bites she should be on a leash.


Don't automatically blame yourself or the dogs. Since he obviously doesn't know dogs, and has no problem approaching them surreptitiously, I would have invited him to get lost.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> Don't automatically blame yourself or the dogs. Since he obviously doesn't know dogs, and has no problem approaching them surreptitiously, I would have invited him to get lost.



Good point Countryboy, but we also have to guard against @#$es like that guy.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Lol, Catharine. At our dog park, I stay fairly calm with idiots. 

Because!... I normally have with us a big Italian Mastiff who's behaviour I know intimately. I will advise visitors how to enter the park (leash off) and how to behave once there... so that the dogs can get to know each other and begin to play.

Some people insist on leashing their dogs inside the park. Which kinda makes my day. 'Cos I know we'll get a good laff at them when they wind up on the ground with a leash wrapped around their ankles. heeheehee


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

I agree with the above posts, your girl hasn't earned the privilege of being off leash at all yet.

In regards of her running off to the chicken coop and taking off at the beach, etc., have you tried letting her out on a long line? This give more freedom than a standard leash b/c it's longer (25 feet is the length I have, I think), plus it gives you the control of reeling her back in when she won't listen. Long lines also come in handy when traveling and you want them to be able to stretch their legs but don't want to lose them.

As hard as it is, don't repeatedly call her. She's learned that she doesn't have to pay you any mind unless it's her idea. Call her once, maybe twice at the beginning, then take physical action if she's ignoring you. Using the long line, reel her in slowly and gently. Praise her if she starts coming to you on her own while doing this. When she gets to you, give her a small, high value treat (tiny piece of meat or cheese) and praise her, even though you had to force the situation. Eventually, it will click that coming when called is a good thing. Since she's developed a bad habit, it will probably take awhile for it to sink in - be patient.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

georgiapeach I agree long lines can be good for giving the dog some running legs, but right now I don't even think Zora should be on a long line or flexi since her mom wants to be able to do agility with her and also has to fix the problems with chasing birds, running off, not paying attention etc. She needs to have her attention close up before she tries to get her attention back when she is out at the end of a 30' line.

Frank, you are right idiots abound and you do have to keep a sense of humor about it all. On looking back at what happened to OP with that guy sneaking up behind her at the beach though, it was really kind of creepy.


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

lily cd re said:


> georgiapeach I agree long lines can be good for giving the dog some running legs, but right now I don't even think Zora should be on a long line or flexi since her mom wants to be able to do agility with her and also has to fix the problems with chasing birds, running off, not paying attention etc. She needs to have her attention close up before she tries to get her attention back when she is out at the end of a 30' line.


Wondering if agility should even be a consideration at this point until her issues are resolved? I agree that obedience should be the number one priority right now. I was just trying to think of a way that she could let her out at home without having to leash walk her and to teach her to come when called.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I know my reply to the OP was long, but if you read all the way through it I suggested she leave agility on the back burner for now and suggested she try rally as a team building activity that can be a foundation for going back to agility later on.

When she has Zora's attention she should use a long line to practice her recalls when she is in distracting environments, just like you described georgiapeach, but not yet.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Poodlerunner said:


> Your poodle has figured out that she can do what she wants off leash. At agility classes she breaks away to bounce around the instructor once or twice? I can see how that may be adorable but it's not a good thing at all.
> 
> If she were mine, I wouldn't let her off leash until she is reliable in coming back when called. I don't know if you are doing this but you cannot keep calling a dog that is ignoring you. I wouldn't even call it unless there were a very good chance that it was going to listen. Every time your dogs do what they want and you have no control, their bratty behavior is being reinforced. I would work with them separately until they were both reliable on recall. If you let her out to the chicken coup, don't call her back knowing she is not going to listen.
> 
> ...


The only one who thinks it's adorable that she tries to jump up at the instructor is Zora. She's never rewarded for this behavior. If she does it, it's always after we have run the course, which she's actually quite focused on, and if we break for a second to go back and rework something. During that half second break is when she might take the opportunity to entertain herself. The chicken coop thing is a more recent problem. The coop is located about 1/2 an acre from our house, and our yard is partially fenced. About 3 months ago is when we started to notice rats chowing down on the chicken food. That's when Zora noticed them too, and is now addicted to the rush of killing them. Before she noticed the rats her recall was much better and she would go outside and come back in when I called her no problem. Then she started bolting outside, hunching down into stalking when she's a few yards from the coop, and running to the outside of their fence to watch for rats, and still coming when I'd call her back. Thennnn it evolved into, when I called her, she would have to zip inside the coop area for one last look, then come running to me. Two weeks ago we went on vacation and we had a house sitter. When we returned from vacation that was the first time she flat our ignored me when I went to call her back in. I do not repeat call more than twice. At that point I went out, calmly, and brought her back by her collar. Since then I'm trying to remember to have treats ready, and any time I call her to come in and she does it right the first time, she gets a treat. I think she killed all the rats that were out there, I haven't seen any in a long time, and she hasn't caught one in over a month, nonetheless she still waits and watches daily. 
Yes, I need to have someone come over and practice polite off leash greetings with us. It's hard because neither dogs pull any crap when it's just us coming home. On the 4th we had probably 20 people over, and I was house sitting a second aussie. The first one or two people that came over they were excited, but after that all the dogs did great. Thanks for the suggestions


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> Ok, now that I have sleep and some coffee in me, I reread your post. I do understand that part of it was venting and that is fine, but now in the light of a fresh day let's look at all of this bit by bit.
> 
> First you have to deal with the behavior of both dogs. Since the aussie is older you will need a lot of patience since that dog's behaviors are very entrenched. Part of why I have waited (still am) to add a new puppy is because I want Lily and Peeves to be helpers, not models of problem behaviors. I think fjm's suggestion of getting a good trainer to come to your home might be very helpful for getting an assessment of the things that need to be worked on and an outsider's read on the behavioral interactions of the dogs. Ultimately you have to get this all to work for yourself though.
> 
> ...


Thank you for all the suggestions! Yes, you are right about Zora still being young. She turns two this week and hasn't even had a heat cycle (yes... I've been watching for it) so I know she's got wacky hormone stuff going on. Some weeks she has her brain more than others. My goal with her was to have a very obedient dog, which is why we've taken so many training classes, and also why I'm frustrated that we still haven't figured some things out. I've definitely overestimated her obedience skills off leash. I've already paid for the next 6 weeks of agility classes, so I'm kind of committed to that right now. I'll see if I can find any rally classes going on in my area, I think we would both really benefit from that. Whatever it is, the training really needs to have off leash practice, because on leash she's great, especially in a training environment where she knows she's supposed to behave. 
Any suggestions for the issues I'm having when she bites at my aussie when they're playing fetch? I was looking through old pictures and realized how long this issue has really been going on...


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> Don't automatically blame yourself or the dogs. Since he obviously doesn't know dogs, and has no problem approaching them surreptitiously, I would have invited him to get lost.


Yes... I know that's part of the problem too. I am well aware that my dogs were rude, but the guy was being an a$$ too. He approached us from above & behind, so I know it startled my two. He came up with a loud "HI!!!", then my two broke their stays and did their bad behaviors. I said "sorry we were trying to work on some obedience stuff" Zora really wanted to say hi to him and started springing around, and he said "yeah I can tell they really NEED THAT" then said "HEY don't you BITE ME. IF YOUR DOGS BITE PEOPLE THEN THEY NEED TO BE ON LEASH". I had already grabbed Zora's collar at this point, she probably got about 5 springs in, and my aussie was nowhere near him. I told him my dog doesn't bite people, packed up and left. She wasn't trying to bite him. I get it, my dog's need work off leash, but they are not aggressive.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

georgiapeach said:


> I agree with the above posts, your girl hasn't earned the privilege of being off leash at all yet.
> 
> In regards of her running off to the chicken coop and taking off at the beach, etc., have you tried letting her out on a long line? This give more freedom than a standard leash b/c it's longer (25 feet is the length I have, I think), plus it gives you the control of reeling her back in when she won't listen. Long lines also come in handy when traveling and you want them to be able to stretch their legs but don't want to lose them.
> 
> As hard as it is, don't repeatedly call her. She's learned that she doesn't have to pay you any mind unless it's her idea. Call her once, maybe twice at the beginning, then take physical action if she's ignoring you. Using the long line, reel her in slowly and gently. Praise her if she starts coming to you on her own while doing this. When she gets to you, give her a small, high value treat (tiny piece of meat or cheese) and praise her, even though you had to force the situation. Eventually, it will click that coming when called is a good thing. Since she's developed a bad habit, it will probably take awhile for it to sink in - be patient.


I have not tried the long line method yet, but I'm not against it. I do not repeat call her, ever. She gets two strikes, you're out, and gets a physical intervention. When she was a puppy we would do the come to me game, where we would take turns sling shooting the puppy, taking turns asking her to come. She did great, and had a consistent good recall. Things have been going backwards since she formed the habit of killing rats 3 months ago, now she found something even more fun, and that's when our recall has been slipping.


----------



## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

brownlikewoah said:


>


They are awesome


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Well, I've got a voice mail in with a trainer in our area that offers various obedience & rally classes, as well as beginner hunt training, which is something I'm interested in getting into eventually. Zora's half brother is a master hunter (hmmm wonder where all this drive and energy comes from?! haha) so I hope this works out to be a good fit. Thanks again everyone for the good advice. I took my two on a LEASHED walk today, practiced down stays with distractions... they're very well behaved on leash & even more so when treats are involved, we just gotta get this off leash thing figured out


----------



## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

brownlikewoah said:


> Well, I've got a voice mail in with a trainer in our area that offers various obedience & rally classes, as well as beginner hunt training, which is something I'm interested in getting into eventually. Zora's half brother is a master hunter (hmmm wonder where all this drive and energy comes from?! haha) so I hope this works out to be a good fit. Thanks again everyone for the good advice. I took my two on a LEASHED walk today, practiced down stays with distractions... they're very well behaved on leash & even more so when treats are involved, we just gotta get this off leash thing figured out



I read something interesting about treats. Forgive me if you've already heard it: Don't treat every time... make it random so the possibility of a treat is always there and then occasionally, make it a bonus round where they hit the treat jackpot. I did use this bonus with a Cairn Terrier and it was so much fun for the both of us. If she didn't get the bonus round, she was so focused on me and what she could do to get one... she would go through her repertoire of tricks... so smart!


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Poodlerunner said:


> I read something interesting about treats. Forgive me if you've already heard it: Don't treat every time... make it random so the possibility of a treat is always there and then occasionally, make it a bonus round where they hit the treat jackpot. I did use this bonus with a Cairn Terrier and it was so much fun for the both of us. If she didn't get the bonus round, she was so focused on me and what she could do to get one... she would go through her repertoire of tricks... so smart!


Random reinforcement schedule keeps the dog interested since they are always hoping for the reward. The smart ones figure out very quickly that only the best behaviors get treats so they will keep offering good performances. If you want a detailed explanation of reinforcement schedules I have one here: http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/100970-ian-dunbar-seminar-workshop.html. It is fairly far into the thread, but it is there.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Poodlerunner said:


> I read something interesting about treats. Forgive me if you've already heard it: Don't treat every time... make it random so the possibility of a treat is always there and then occasionally, make it a bonus round where they hit the treat jackpot. I did use this bonus with a Cairn Terrier and it was so much fun for the both of us. If she didn't get the bonus round, she was so focused on me and what she could do to get one... she would go through her repertoire of tricks... so smart!


yup, that's what I was taught and what we do  Hope the other trainer calls me back today


----------



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just going to poke my nose in here and say that i don't see any problem with the way your dogs seem to be playing. i don't think your aussie would have any problem telling zora off if the play biting were over the top. you should take a look at some of nu2poodle's photos of rain and her buddy playing. they look like they are going to tear each other's heads off. but it's all play.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

patk said:


> just going to poke my nose in here and say that i don't see any problem with the way your dogs seem to be playing. i don't think your aussie would have any problem telling zora off if the play biting were over the top. you should take a look at some of nu2poodle's photos of rain and her buddy playing. they look like they are going to tear each other's heads off. but it's all play.


Yeah, you're probably right lol.  Still no word from the trainer... Maybe I'll call again tomorrow?


----------



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

brownlikewoah said:


> Well, I've got a voice mail in with a trainer in our area that offers various obedience & rally classes, as well as beginner hunt training, which is something I'm interested in getting into eventually. Zora's half brother is a master hunter (hmmm wonder where all this drive and energy comes from?! haha) so I hope this works out to be a good fit. Thanks again everyone for the good advice. I took my two on a LEASHED walk today, practiced down stays with distractions... they're very well behaved on leash & even more so when treats are involved, we just gotta get this off leash thing figured out


You say the trouble started with her hunting rats around the coop and that she works great on leash. Have you done obedience work on leash by the chicken coop? Just an idea.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

MiniPoo said:


> You say the trouble started with her hunting rats around the coop and that she works great on leash. Have you done obedience work on leash by the chicken coop? Just an idea.


derppppppppp that would make sense, wouldn't it? haha... we will practice some obedience out there today. She has been very well behaved the past two days, more mindful and watching for instruction.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Keep updating us. I am sure you will succeed.


----------



## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Things have been going well. We've been practicing obedience work out by our chicken coop, little things like come, sit, down, watch me etc. A friend came over the other day, they already knew he was here, and I grabbed a couple treats (no spray bottle this time) and sent the dogs to their spot and had them wait until I released them, all went as planned  Yesterday was the first day that Zora ignored me when I called her to come inside. I called twice, both times she looked at me, and looked back at the coop. I got my shoes on and went in for the physical intervention... but she was so persistent about the coop when I got out there, I figured I'd check the area that the rats hide in when they steal the chicken feed. I wasn't expecting to find anything, since there haven't been any for 2 months now, but out crawled the biggest, fattest, healthiest rat. Zora went for it, but the fence for our chickens blocked her from getting it... so it will be another day. I do want her to kill the rats, it keeps things sanitary etc. but she does need to listen too... so we're trying to find a balance of that. Here's a picture from a couple months ago of our huntress murderer


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That sounds like great progress! I have found recently real benefit from physically going in and showing Lily what I wanted her to do with the utility signal exercise. She was always creeping in towards me on the drop signal and it was always way worse at a trial. A friendly acquaintance who was at a recent trial where there is match time saw it when we were working together in the practice ring and she told me to walk in and take Lily by the collar and put her back where she was supposed to drop. She says her dog now knows if she starts to walk in that she was incorrect. For Zora, putting your shoes on to go get her when she ignores your "come" will quickly fix that if you take her by the collar and lead her back to the house.

Separately I don't think I have rats in my area so I hope I don't see one in my chicken coop. Mice I know I will have to deal with and hope the chickens will take care of them themselves. Spoos are great hunters though aren't they? I know of someone whose spoos regularly bring dead possums to the back door.


----------

