# Fixing bad groom (or 'my poodle looks stupid')



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, no offense, but her do looks like a wacky version of a modified Continental. I would let the coat above her poms grow out for a couple of weeks, then get rid of all of the longish coat so she is in a proper Miami trim. It would suit her.

By the way...her colour is yummy!


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## outwest

No offense at all! I think she looks like crap! LOL


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## Countryboy

Even my two guys look great in bracelets in the Summer. But yeah . . . they're done like Sonya . . abt a #3 all over. 

Bonnie's legs resemble lamb chops...  .....*But don't tell her that!! lol*

Just to give u another look at that 'look' . . here's Tonka just before trying out my brand new LP Slicker on his bracelets.


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## outwest

Yah, Frank, he looks good there.


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## Rowan

OMG... I agree with Arreau (sorry)! She's looked much better.

The "jacket" looks like it comes down way too far on her forelegs. Her hindquarters are just too poofy, for lack of a better word. It's a case of the cut not suiting the poo, and the cut not being properly executed (IMHO). I'm far from an expert though! 

But there's hope!  I think your best and easiest fix is to shave her down with a 5F blade (all over) and leave the bracelets. You can use a 4F if you want more length. That will put her in a true Miami trim and she'll look far more balanced. I really think she can pull it off! Keep her tail pom as is or shape it to balance out the bracelets. The rear bracelet should start at the hock and the front should be as tall as the rear bracelet when she's stacked. 

Something like this: http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8262-monti-miami-clip.html
Or this (looks like a 7F on the body): http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/7546-palm-springs-miami-bikini-clown-clip.html
And scroll down for Beau in a Miami: http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/14184-do-all-men-hate-miami-4.html

Here is *Fond of Poodle's* girl, Colina in a Miami trim that I use with her permission as one of my Miami guides. I love this look on Colina and I think it will work for Bonnie. (I hope FoP doesn't mind my posting it here as she's posted it before.) I think her body was done with a 7F as her coat is shorter:


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## outwest

Yah, that's what I need to do. Shave her down. I just can't believe the groomer thought this looked good! Maybe we will stay holed up in the house to avoid embarrassment until she is repaired. Sheesh. 

She has a cute body, so I think she could pull off a Miami where nothing is hidden. Gosh, I hope so. She has never had short hair before. 

...tomorrow can't come fast enough. I never thought a little haircut could be SOOOOooo bad!! (keep repeating - it is just a haircut, just a haircut, just a haircut.)


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## Rowan

She has great structure so I think she'll pull off the Miami with no problem. It only looks "funny" on dogs with short legs and long bodies, IMHO. It throws off their balance and highlights their flaws. 

Keep us posted and I can't wait to see pics of her grooming fix!


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## Countryboy

outwest said:


> it is just a haircut, just a haircut, just a haircut.)


Ya OW . . . and yr suffering from DOC Syndrome. *Day Of Clip*

Symptoms are a downturn of the mouth, a sick feeling in yr stomach . . . and frequent mutterings of omg, omg, omg... 

Knowing the history of this disease, I can safely predict that u'll be better tomorrow . . . once u get used to it!


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't understand what kind of haircut she is in. Why didn't you just have your groomer put her in a CC like we suggested? It is usually best to stick with an actual poodle trim of some sort, LOL! I think the easiest fix is to either:

1) shave off all hair except for the bracelets and she will be in a MIAMI trim.

2) shave off her back end, add rosettes if you wish, and she will be in a CONTINENTAL trim.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

The Miami on the right dogs looks balanced and lovely.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Now, now dont blame the groomer .. you raved about her before and now that the trim didnt turn out the way you imagined you are blamming her? TSK, TSK. From what I remember of what you wanted Im not all suprised at what you have now.. She may not have thought the style looked good but merely did what she *thought* you wanted and did her best to make it look as good as possible.. probably thinking dont tell anyone where your dog got groomed. It happens A LOT!

Unless you have her in a continental or english saddle or modified miami which she kinda did last time, bracelets with a fluffy chest arent going to look good. Unless you like the weirder looking trims, but I dont think you do lol. Bracelets wise she looks OK.. the rear ones look off maybe too high? and throws off the front ones.. cant tell I would have to be there to tell for sure if they are too high.. if they are it isnt by much 1/2" to 1" Front and rear should be same height which they are in the pix. The bracelets need more tidying tho.

I think she would look great in a continental or Miami! :adore:!! Esp with what you have to work with .


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## outwest

I TOLD her I wanted the Miami! She has a poodle grooming book. This is what I got. Obviously, she knows nothing of poodle trims. The shop is full of terriers, Maltese, Bichons and the like. Bonnie is one of only 2 standards they do. I have seen the other one and he is a 30 inch monster that is shaved down completely. I can't tell her to do a continental because she wouldn't have had the slightest CLUE about what that was. I don't know if she has even SEEN one. 

I love the groomer- Bonnie loves the groomer - she is a total sweetheart and tries. She is just lacking knowledge? 

I am doing a shave down tomorrow with smaller bracelets, a topknot/ears and tail puffy.

WISH US LUCK!


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> I TOLD her I wanted the Miami! She has a poodle grooming book. This is what I got. Obviously, she knows nothing of poodle trims. The shop is full of terriers, Maltese, Bichons and the like. Bonnie is one of only 2 standards they do. I have seen the other one and he is a 30 inch monster that is shaved down completely.
> 
> I am starting to get angry with the groomer and it takes a lot for me to get angry.  I can't tell her to do a continental because she wouldn't have had the slightest CLUE about what that was. I don't know if she has even SEEN one.
> 
> I am doing a shave down tomorrow.


Okay, take a deep breath. It is pretty rare to find a groomer who really knows poodles. When you shave her down, you're going to leave the bracelets, right? It's just hair, it grows.  

You do have to laugh, just a little bit, that even with a poodle grooming book this is what came of saying you wanted a miami!  :angel:


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## outwest

CharismaticMillie said:


> When you shave her down, you're going to leave the bracelets, right? It's just hair, it grows.
> :angel:


Yes, I am going to leave the bracelets (but smaller around), head, tail and ears. 

I just wanted a cute poodle trim, not this. I told her a Miami, but not to make the body hair too short. Somehow, she interpreted that as leaving it 2 inches and fluffy yet shaving circles around her legs.

What's with that ring of shaved area around her back leg anyway? :act-up:


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest, this was Mil in a miami. Not the best look for her (she is a bit long and low) but it's a nice example of a miami.

Henry pictured in a miami as well.


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## CharismaticMillie

Also, this lovely cafe bitch is pictured in a miami. http://www.beauvoirpoodles.com/photo_album.html

She is just about exactly Bonnie's size (and a champion, yes! PLENTY of smaller bitches DO finish in AKC!   ) Notice how she left the neck hair long and blended it into the body? I think you might like this look.


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## catsaqqara

Her bracelets look the right height to me, I think this next groom you should leave the bracelets and see how they look before you go smaller. Normally bracelets don't make the legs look stumpy, they do now because the legs are not shaved like they are supposed to be.

If you like the muffin top TK I say go for it and shave the neck, If you want it blended make sure to let her know. With the length she has now she could just leave her neck alone and blend around the base into the shorter body. She'll look great either way


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I would not take the bracelets any smaller. They will look great when the body coat is clipped down.


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## Indiana

I love the pictures you guys posted above of dogs in the Miami with huge bracelets, tail pom-poms and tk's. The dogs really look jaunty but balanced that way. I'm trying that this summer when it's not so c-c-c-cold out (nearly froze my ears off walking them this morning).


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## Rowan

outwest said:


> I TOLD her I wanted the Miami! She has a poodle grooming book. This is what I got. Obviously, she knows nothing of poodle trims. The shop is full of terriers, Maltese, Bichons and the like. Bonnie is one of only 2 standards they do. I have seen the other one and he is a 30 inch monster that is shaved down completely. I can't tell her to do a continental because she wouldn't have had the slightest CLUE about what that was. I don't know if she has even SEEN one.
> 
> I love the groomer- Bonnie loves the groomer - she is a total sweetheart and tries. She is just lacking knowledge?
> 
> I am doing a shave down tomorrow with smaller bracelets, a topknot/ears and tail puffy.
> 
> WISH US LUCK!


O/W,
Take in an actual picture of a poodle in the clip you want. Tell her it's the Miami trim and it's what you want Bonnie to look like. Sometimes visual aids are your best bet and I always use them with my personal stylist. I also use them when grooming my boys.  

Good luck!


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## faerie

shave her down and put her in a miami. your groomer is making up grooms 

here is temperance in a miami (and mind you, my dog is corded w/ topknot and tail, so she looks different than bonnie would, but i'm referring to her body here)


pretty poof. by faerie made, on Flickr

it's a very cute girly fun look. and i think bonnie would look darling in it. i love the miami! it's my favorite on temperance.


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## outwest

thank you, thank you, thank you! I am inclined to print out ten different pictures you have provided me and slap them on the counter. LOL. No, I won't do that, but I will bring several. We'll still have the short hair on the legs to grow out a little, but that shouldn't take too long. 

Bonnie may look long and short after the Miami, too, but we shall see! She has a lovely muscular shoulders, back, thighs and waist. Hopefully those nice things will balance any conformation deficits she has on the front end! 

Luckily, I live in SoCal. It is supposed to get to 80 degrees today. It is gloriously sunny. Not too hot, not too cold. She will do fine in a Miami here for the winter.

I will post pictures after the fix. Hopefully, I will be cheerful at that time.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

outwest said:


> Yes, I am going to leave the bracelets (but smaller around), head, tail and ears.
> 
> I just wanted a cute poodle trim, not this. I told her a Miami, but not to make the body hair too short. Somehow, she interpreted that as leaving it 2 inches and fluffy yet shaving circles around her legs.
> 
> What's with that ring of shaved area around her back leg anyway? :act-up:


LOL thats where you both went wrong! Well she prob sensed your anxiety about not too short lol. I can kinda see why she left it so pantaloonish lol. She prob shaved it so that it would look like a miami... ie bracelets, and tried to blend the legs into the body without making the body "too short"... which made the legs fair game! 

YOu should have been more clear by saying I would like the miami trim but instead of being really short like a lot of them are I would like 1/4".. or 1/2" or whatever LEFT ON. That way there shouldnt be any suprises.

On the other hand I would have questioned you like no FBI agent ever would so that I knew or had a very good image of what I thought you wanted in my mind.. You would have been aggravated with the 20 questions lol. SO that is where she went wrong. And yes many groomers dont know how to groom a poodle or at least do a good job at it. Frankly considering I dont think she is too shabby.

This reminds me of a cocker I groomed yesterday. I come in with all sorts of instructions being left, which most are like common sense to me. But the biggest issue is that the dog is too poofy in the legs etc. Now cockers were the first breed I learned on by a show breeder so my cockers arent too shabby! 

Anyway she wants me to thin out the legs and skirt and not to cut the legs too short. So once the dog is clean and dry I call her and talk to her myself. I tell her I can thin out the coat but because the shorter hairs are more apt to twist around the long hairs the dog will be more apt to mat. She was horrified at that thought. So to address the not too short but dog is poofy and heavy situation I rec a 2" guard on the legs and skirt and said he would be shorter and look smart, and if she didnt like it, it would grow back pretty quickly. She says that Im the expert and if I thought it would look good then go ahead. So I do a 2" guard on the skirt and legs, 10 on the back of course with my experience I was able to blend it nicely.. Tiddied up the front legs to look more pillar, gave the dog a nice profile and a bit more angulation to the rear.. Then I trimmed up the ears way up to clean them up cause they were hacked to ***t. Mom LOVED it! Communication is the key!!

If I were you I would tell her to cut the rest of her as short as she did those legs and start that over.. leave the bracelets alone and of course she should know to blend the topknot into the body.. That way you will have a miami trim albeit shorter than you like BUT it will be even. If not it will still look funny. Good luck!!!


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## outwest

I wish she would have called me and grilled me on what I wanted like you did the cocker. 

I just can't take her down as far as she did on those shaved legs. She'd be bald! ugh. I suppose I could have her taken down short, though.


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## Rowan

outwest said:


> I wish she would have called me and grilled me on what I wanted like you did the cocker.
> 
> I just can't take her down as far as she did on those shaved legs. She'd be bald! ugh. I suppose I could have her taken down short, though.


O/W,
If you want some fluff on her, see if your groomer has a 4F blade. It's a finishing blade and leaves the hair fuzzy. Alex was clipped with a 4F in these pictures, and I believe these were taken a week or so after groom day. I prefer the 5F for Virginia summers. 

Here's something you can download for your groomer: https://progroom.com/catalog/pdf/andis/poodlechart.pdf

For a cleaner download, go here: Poodle Chart PDF Download


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## CharismaticMillie

I agree with the 4F. You will have a difference in length between the short shaved areas and the rest of her coat, but this will be resolved in time. 

In the photos I posted of Millie and Henry clipped in a Miami, they are shaved with a 7F, just for reference. I like a Miami with a 4F best.


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## outwest

A 4F it is. 
I will bring two or three pictures.
I will say, 

"I want a Miami. Cut her body, legs and neck with a 4F blade. Leave her bracelets, head, ears and tail the way the are. Make sure her top knot ends at the back of her skull, no higher. Eventually, the shaved areas of her legs will match the length of her body."

With that description, Rowans poodle chart and the pictures of Alex and maybe one or two others, would that be clear to you? 

Until tomorrow we are calling her the Ringling Brothers circus poodle. 

(it's just hair, it's just hair)


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## petitpie

Bonnie looked great before grooming, and it sounds like the groomer is not experienced with poodles. If you both like her and want to keep her, maybe she would appreciate your time and help. Can you wait for Bonnie and supervise her trim?


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## CharismaticMillie

I think the cafe bitch I linked was done with 4F.

Honestly, while I like it with a 4F better, I'd have her do a 7F because that will be less drastic between the already shaved parts. I think it will still look funny with a 4F....


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## outwest

Yah, I understand. Maybe I better take a deep breath and do a 7F.


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## CharismaticMillie

Hair grows. I shaved Millie with a 10 blade (eww) in late July and she's now in a continental with 4 inches of hair on the longest part of her jacket. Bonnie is young and her hair will grow fast too!


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## outwest

petitpie said:


> Bonnie looked great before grooming, and it sounds like the groomer is not experienced with poodles. If you both like her and want to keep her, maybe she would appreciate your time and help. Can you wait for Bonnie and supervise her trim?


The groomer has gotten a lot better. She finally got the hang of a good sporting trim and Bonnie was looking pretty nice lately. She finally learned the sporting trim. I went in there and threw her a curve asking for a Miami without a super short body. The first time she hardly gave her any bracelets at all, so I went in this time and tried to clarify it. She didn't know what the heck to do, obviously, and didn't ask me when she didn't understand. I keep thinking the GROOMER should know more than I do, but in this case I don't think she does. 

Don't groomers have some sort of certification like a hair dresser or do they just learn on the job???


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## Rowan

outwest said:


> Yah, I understand. Maybe I better take a deep breath and do a 7F.


Or split the difference and have her use the 5F, see how it looks and go from there. You can always take more hair off but you can't put it back on. 

But it will grow back and usually faster than you'd like!

Approx lengths per clipper charts:
#7 blade: leaves hair 1/8"
#5 blade: leaves hair 1/4"
#4 blade: leaves hair 3/8"


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## CharismaticMillie

There are groomer certifications, I think, but I don't think that it means a whole lot. I think it is often more important to see what they have done with their grooming. I look for groomers who have won awards at big grooming competitions. I also look for extensive experience with poodles. I have had only horrendous results when taking my dogs to groomers who don't own or show poodles themselves. This does not mean that groomers who don't own poodles cannot groom them well, but this is your best bet. I discussed the difficulty finding a good poodle groomer with one of my current groomers. She explained that you really have to have a love for poodles as a groomer because a) they take so much time a lot of groomers simply don't have time to perfect them and hand scissor them, 2) a lot of groomers only have experience with the simple kennel or "lamb" or "puppy" clip (I quote these because what pet groomers consider lamb and puppy clip is not always what the rest of the poodle world considers lamb or puppy clip). 

In the end, the only two groomers I use actually own their own little grooming shop and have experience showing standard poodles. One of them owns two champion standard poodles and the other is an AKC handler of dobermans and afghans and was essentially raised by Tiger's show handler. Her family owns a groom shop and she grooms there when she is not traveling showing. She used to work for Tiger's handler and she still assists her quite a bit when she's not showing the other breeds. She showed and groomed Tiger quite a bit when he was out showing, so her knowledge of grooming the breed is extensive.

Our previous groomer was pretty good. She owned a pet standard poodle and worked at petsmart. However, she always shaved too much of the tail and too high in between the eyes. She was great at lamb clips, though. Essentially, it was too time consuming to expect a high volume groomer at a big box pet shop to be able to spend the time perfecting the extensive grooming jobs that I wanted.

I would honestly start talking to people. Are there any poodle breeders in your area? They would know of a good poodle groomer. I drive about 22 miles to get to the two groomers I use.

I would learn some of the grooming basics, like FFT. Because I was driving so far for grooms, I bought a dryer, clippers, etc. so I could do basic grooming every 3 or 4 weeks. I stretched out the grooms quite a bit. In fact, Millie went to a professional groomer this month for the first time since April.

ETA: I have also found that a knowledge of proper poodle structure and the current trends in poodle conformation aids in a well groomed poodle.


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## Carley's Mom

It's just a haircut and it will be fine. I did laugh out loud at her sweet face and your reply to Frank... thanks!


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## faerie

outwest said:


> A 4F it is.
> I will bring two or three pictures.
> I will say,
> 
> "I want a Miami. Cut her body, legs and neck with a 4F blade. Leave her bracelets, head, ears and tail the way the are. Make sure her top knot ends at the back of her skull, no higher. Eventually, the shaved areas of her legs will match the length of her body."
> 
> With that description, Rowans poodle chart and the pictures of Alex and maybe one or two others, would that be clear to you?
> 
> Until tomorrow we are calling her the Ringling Brothers circus poodle.
> 
> (it's just hair, it's just hair)


the picture of temperance is where she was taken down with a 4f.
it's plenty plush and yum. and it will grow fast.


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## Chagall's mom

Glad you able to get such helpful advice on the grooming repair. I just want to ask you _not_ to hide Bonnie away! (lol!) Really, I'd just offer that you try not to give off too much of your anxiety/disappointment about this to her. She is a pretty, happy girl and doesn't know her own reflection in the mirror. I recall you once considering a good, experienced groomer who's a distance away. At some point you might want to make that trip to have Bonnie cut into the pattern you want, then perhaps your local groomer can follow it. I know it's traumatic, for you, but it can and will be fixed. Bonnie is lovely and healthy so onward and upward! I've just started home grooming and I highly recommend it. As an aside, a nice relaxing glass of wine might be helpful here too. Hugs and good luck with the "touch up." (For the record, Bonnie is still a beauty!):beauty:


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## Aidan

The difference between a good haircut and a bad haircut is a few weeks! I would just let it grow out and then see if your groomer will give you a free groom the next time you come in.

I know when I first started I did some pretty crappy grooms...lol, mostly on my own dogs thank goodness. I was thrilled when I told owners I was new and not to expect anything amazing that they would come back..and I still see them regularly and my grooming has improved quite a bit..but it never would have if I didn't have regular clients.

I would say as long as they don't hurt your dog..give them a chance. A crappy groomer with a passion for the job is just a few months/years away from maybe becoming a great groomer!

I do think the groom looks off, the bracelets are not even (it was one thing I had trouble with until I saw FD's post about bevels) I think she would look adorable in a traditional miami like Sonya..but wait until the hair grows out a bit and then have it re-done. 

You have a beautiful dog!


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## liljaker

Wow, after reading all these posts about grooming, blade numbers, learning the basics, I guess I am really lucky that I have such a great groomer. I originally found her when I had just gotten Jake, 14 years ago, and saw this gorgeous black spoo and asked the owner where she was groomed. So started my long relationship with a groomer in north Chicago, who is from Scotland and just loves Sunny! I know that if I had to learn the basics, etc., he'd be walking around with a bag over his head!


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## tokipoke

I guess I'm the only one who likes Bonnie's new style. BUT - now I understand your disappointment. You asked for a Miami Clip and THIS is what you got??? Oh my... 

She might look better if the hair on her front legs were shaved up a *tad* higher above the elbow, but yeah, go back to the groomer and get that Miami clip you want. Definitely show her pictures. How long has your groomer been grooming? It's great that you will stick with her for the sake of your dog, but the point of grooming is to make the customer happy. It's also not good for your wallet to keep going back to fix things. Good luck with the next session!


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## petitpie

Liljaker, you would be a great recommendation for a poodle groomer! 

I've bathed many dogs....and a cat (I was 5 and my mother came running from the phone to the tub, where the cat had my hand in his mouth, lol!)

I don't think I'm up for grooming so I try to look for a groomer by a recommendation, who is kind and cares about the animal and owner. After several sessions, I decide if I like everything or can help fix it, if I don't. 

I still make mistakes and move on. :act-up:


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## liljaker

petitpie said:


> Liljaker, you would be a great recommendation for a poodle groomer!
> 
> I've bathed many dogs....and a cat (I was 5 and my mother came running from the phone to the tub, where the cat had my hand in his mouth, lol!)
> 
> I don't think I'm up for grooming so I try to look for a groomer by a recommendation, who is kind and cares about the animal and owner. After several sessions, I decide if I like everything or can help fix it, if I don't.
> 
> I still make mistakes and move on. :act-up:


After Jake's second CCL surgery in 2010, I was a little leery of having him groomed -- standing too long, so I hand sheared him myself. My groomer, Stacy, saw pics of him and said, "wow you are really great" -- I think she was being kind. I would get Jake when he was sleeping/resting on one side and then work on the one I could reach --- but then, I'd have to wait for him to relax the other way, or he walked around crooked! LOL. Anyway, he looked great to me -- groom or not -- but I never am upset about paying for a grooming. For Sunny he's $55 I believe and it takes 3 1/2 hours from start to finish and it's worth every penny plus a tip.


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## Fluffyspoos

Sorry, I giggled!

That jacket thing on her hind makes her look really short legged, imo. You can clean it up by going to a HCC with or without rosettes, taking the shaved parts to a #7 instead of reverse #10 or shorter, though if your groomer did this with a miami (I'm sure she's sweet) she may not know what the heck she's doing with a HCC. Or you can do an actual Miami, I'd either do a #4 like Millie said, or even a #5 (bit shorter) but still leaving some fuzz.

Leave the bracelets the size they are.

Start topknot at back of skull? That may leave a thin neck, I'm personally a fan of neck hair in ANY clip, and I always start my shaves as the shoulder and blend the neck all the way around in.

No, groomers don't need certifications to groom.. I should know.. I work with some that would make your hair crawl.. they.. kennel dry poodles (and other dogs!) *CRINGE*

ETA: (oh crap I lost my whole edit reply! D: )

Your groomer did a great job doing the rounding on the body section of her groom, but I'm not sure what she did on the bracelets? I also wanted to say go ahead and try a Miami if you want, I've been fishing up pictures of Vienna earlier last year when she was in her HCC and Miami clip. Please note that I had some help with her HCC, me and apoodleaday (Lacey used to a be a show girl and apoodleaday is a goddess with the scissors) scissored her.

HCC (Lol beiber face, I was talking so I looked HERP DERP in it)









Miami (I had shaved bracelets too low, so you can see the fuzz above from grow-out, thus why they weren't being rounded as well)









Another standard in Miami (I had just got her as a client, I had to take the front bracelets lower, and started growing them out on the bottom to combat high-water syndrome) Just put her into a GORGEOUS lamb clip today, but didn't get any photos.. dang! This is months ago after she was rehomed, she's looking so much better now.









Topknot blended into neck, I highly reccomend this look, a 'crest' makes the neck look so much more elegant, and I'll always do it on my dogs. (I'm a photo nut..)
(Long pic, stretched window, so just linking): http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/fluffychic/Dogs/DSC06507.jpg
Unsized pic of Vegas: http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b203/fluffychic/Dogs/DSC09198.jpg (not putting HTML due to not wanting to balloon up the page) it hasn't been refined yet, since I wanted more length before evening it out and going scissor happy.


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## katbrat

Outwest, you saw what happened to Lexi when I brought in a picture of a Miami to the groomer I had and told her that is what I wanted! At least Bonnie is even! I have no idea how to fix her, but she is a very pretty girl and I'm sure whatever you do will work out. It's hard to repeat "it's only hair, it's only hair" when they don't look anything like you had imagined! Good luck!


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## outwest

I have a plan for her fix, but need to decide the body hair length. I should probably go short, but think I will try to leave a little on her. I will miss her fluffiness, but her hair does grow pretty fast. Within a month she should be fluffy again.

I've been calling her a Doxie-poo all day. She doesn't care 'cause she knows I love her.


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## Fluffyspoos

HCC With more square looking bracelets









You want the front bracelets either level, or a tiny bit higher than the back ones to give the dog an illusion of walking uphill, it gives more elegant movement. Imagine the look of smaller bracelets in front, making the dog look like it's walking downhill when it's not? Not so good.

Also (sorry, I'm chatty!) Keep her bracelets!! You're going to want that hock hair since it's going to be SO NICE to have whenever you grow her out into whatever clip (Ask CM) Hockhair is really the backbone of a lot of clips, and I so wish Vegas's didn't grow brittle and breack, it's the only part of him with crap hair.

This is what grown out and blended bracelets look like









That same clip as above, but a few weeks earlier


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## outwest

Can I stick her on a plane to you? LOL
I am terrified of asking her for a CC or even a modified CC. No way would I chance that. 

Alright, I won't ask for her bracelets any smaller. Hopefully, she won't look weird in a real Miami. I was ready for a surprise when I went to pick her up the other day, but I was so surprised I just paid and left. I have been taking Bonnie there every two weeks like clockwork. I am an excellent client. I have hardly complained, just guided, because I knew she was young and new to poodles. I gave her a generous Xmas bonus. I bet she doesn't charge me much at all for the fix. I am sure she was trying to do what she thought I wanted, I guess...


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## Fluffyspoos

Ha! I wish! I'd love to groom her! ;D

You're giving your groomer great learning opportunities! Every time you ask for a fix your groomer is learning something, and she isn't going to be upset about it, I'm sure. Every time I get a critique on my own poodles, I get better next time I groom them, and then I groom my clients better. This is why I take so many pictures of my grooms (and injuries, and weird spots, and 'wtf is that? PICTURE!'), and also hopefully I can help someone else as well.


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## supysmom

I'll be the minority here, but I think shes cute. what I love most about poodles is that they have awesome hair to work on. clipping, sculpting, coloring. I understand not every poo looks good in every clip. I personally prefer modified trims, or creative grooming. while I plan to do grooming competitions with my spoo, I also plan to do creative competitions with her. so I appreciate something a bit different. and the hair grows back, fast!


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## tokipoke

*Poms too short*

Just wanted to show what the Miami looks like with small unproportioned poms. Here's Leroy's first Miami clip at 6 months. I did not leave a crest on his neck. I really wish I did cause his neck looked so skinny and the big TK looked like a big helmet lol. I shaved his poms too low. These were right at the hock. I will never shave it that low again on him. They look funny and the front ones are too short. His flimsy hair texture also didn't help the shape.


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## Ms Stella

I hope you post an update when you either take her back or you fix it.. There is something really odd about the back legs..never seen anything like it. She is such a pretty girl. She will be looking good again in no time.


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## outwest

I know. The back legs look like porkchops or bloomers. From the rear it is crazy looking.


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## 3dogs

I think I am in the minority that loves the HCC. NO poms to work with so no worry about placement or size. All your groomer has to do to fix this groom is take a #7 about 2 fingers back from last rib & clip off the rear end, then fix the front legs by taking the line up to the elbow (yes scary but will look so much better). I am not a huge fan of the Miami unless the dog underneath has a good body. The Miami shows all the faults so any sway or roach is in the open, if dog is slightly overweight the dog will look even more so like a sausage. On the whole I have been lucky since I only have 2 Toys in the Miami but they have the body for it those tiny little 3-5lb Poodles. The HCC would be the step for me before a Miami but that is me & I like some hair to play around with.


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## petitpie

I like less is more, too.


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## Ms Stella

outwest said:


> I know. The back legs look like porkchops or bloomers. From the rear it is crazy looking.


LOL...it is pretty funny. I think it will be easy to fix..with a miami as suggested by many others. Do you have a laptop? If so save several photos of dogs that have been shown here that you like and take your laptop to the groomer with you  Im sure it will get fixed..Even I could fix it better and I am not a groomer  

Cant wait for the "after" photos.


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## Ms Stella

3dogs said:


> I think I am in the minority that loves the HCC. NO poms to work with so no worry about placement or size. All your groomer has to do to fix this groom is take a #7 about 2 fingers back from last rib & clip off the rear end, then fix the front legs by taking the line up to the elbow (yes scary but will look so much better). I am not a huge fan of the Miami unless the dog underneath has a good body. The Miami shows all the faults so any sway or roach is in the open, if dog is slightly overweight the dog will look even more so like a sausage. On the whole I have been lucky since I only have 2 Toys in the Miami but they have the body for it those tiny little 3-5lb Poodles. The HCC would be the step for me before a Miami but that is me & I like some hair to play around with.


True....and if your groomer can fix the HCC that would be nice too


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## outwest

Yes, the dog need a good body for the Miami. My only concern with Bonnie's body is her front legs and elbow placement. Those are the part of her that I think are the least attractive. Her mama was a stockier European preformance type poodle with shorter front legs. Her conformation was a little different than Bonnie's Dad, who had the typical conformation for an American standard with the longer front legs, but Bonnie's Mom had a chest to die for, which is why the breeder chose to use her. Bonnie has the front legs of her mother without as much chest as her mother had, so the Miami might look weird. Still, it can't look any odder than she does right now! 

Since I think she looks cute when she is all wet, I THINK she will look okay in a Miami. She may look long and short, though. Her back and torso have great conformation (that is her strong point), so I am not worried about that. 

I take her back in an hour armed with photos. I decided to ask for a blended topknot instead of a muffin top. I am not going to go with the super short body, so she will still have this odd shaved area on her legs, but hopefully it won't be quite so dramatic looking. Within a month her leg hair will grow and I can have her worked into a regular Miami. 

I will be sure and post after pictures because you have all been so sweet and helpful to us - posting pictures, giving detailed advice, blade numbers and the like! 

This is the BEST on line community I have ever belonged to. Thank you ALL!


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## petitpie

Outwest & Bonnie,

Thank you for your "thread," it's been very informative. Before and after pictures and dicussion should be the icing on the cake! :act-up:


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## outwest

I was a little embarrassed showing pictures of Bonnie in this weird cut that is so unflattering on her smaller stature, but I thought I had nothing to lose and everything to gain asking for more knowledgeable opinions than mine. I am hoping when I repost her after pictures I am prouder of how my pretty spoo looks.  

She is at the groomers right now. We had a good discussion about her. The master groomer in the shop is going to help Bonnie's groomer today (YAY!). I decided not to go super short. They warned me that she would still have a weird shaved area on her legs and she would remain somewhat unbalanced looking, but it should be better than it is right now.


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## outwest

My poodle looks:​ADORABLE!!!!!​
I love it. She does not look short legged! Whoo Hoo!!! She is bouncy, trouncy, flouncy.  

The groomer called me about an hour after I dropped her off and asked me if I would consider taking her down shorter after all. The reassured me that her hair would grow and they felt it would look better- hide the shaved areas on her legs. I said go ahead and do it. I asked for a slightly blended top knot because I figured if we were going to shave her, we might as well go all the way. They left her topknot big. 

Things I discovered:

She doesn't have as much chest as I thought she did! Her chest depth is terrific, but she doesn't have the width I thought she did.
Her legs are NOT short.
Her flag tail, who's end curls over at the top half, is more pronounced, but it's cute to me.

I love my poodle just the same as I did before, but this afternoon I am taking her on a walk and showing off her poodleisciousness. She is so bouncy now. I think she likes it, too. 

Here are some pictures:























































Maybe her topknot could have been blended a little better, but overall I am very pleased.


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## Carley's Mom

She looks beautiful !


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## Panda

OOOOO She looks stunning! I love her! They did a great job this time, this groom suits her!


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## Chagall's mom

*BONNIE LOOKS FABULOUS!!* I am so delighted, for you_ both! _(And I think you need to buy your groomer something REALLY nice!!) Enjoy showing Bonnie off, she looks *TERRIFIC!!!!*:cheers2::kiss::rose:


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## Tucker57

What a difference a day makes! She's gorgeous!


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## Rowan

She looks stunning! This is why the Miami is perhaps my favorite clip.


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## outwest

I forgot to show you her chest (or lack there of .










and here is another one showing her tail:










The end result is if you really want to see what your poodles strength and weaknesses are conformationally- shave 'em down. 

Over all, though, I think my spoo looks wonderful!

PS They charged me $15.00 for the fix. Just a token. My groomer is great, even if she is learning. She did a pretty good job on this, I think.


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## Ms Stella

Oh she looks fabulous! She really rocks that cut. Wow! I came home from work and right away came to see if u put up re-do photos. But it's much better than I imagined.


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## Arborgale

BOW-CHICKA-WOW-WOW!!! 

She looks fantastic. I really like her new look.


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## petitpie

How proud you must be of Bonnie and your groomer today! She's beautiful!


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## 3dogs

Much better clip & she looks like she likes it too.


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## Countryboy

outwest said:


> I love my poodle just the same as I did before, but this afternoon I am taking her on a walk and showing off her poodleisciousness. She is so bouncy now. I think she likes it, too.


I'd be showin' that off too, OW.  She looks great!


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## liljaker

Amazing what a clip can do -- it looks wonderful.


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## Sookster

Eeeeeeeeep! I was really hoping you would end up going with the Miami so I could see what she looked like in it  I think it suits her very well! She's such a pretty girl.


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## tokipoke

Bonnie looks great! She is so muscular for a poodle with her stature. I love her cute little butt! She has a cute chest. Have you seen Leroy's chest? Yeah, he has none. It's very narrow. I do love seeing the poodle's body every now and then with the Miami! Glad the second time around turned out great for you.


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## MamaTiff

I couldn't wait for this update- she looks FABULOUS!


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## katbrat

Bonnie looks great! Great save from the groomer also!


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## outwest

Thanks everyone! I took her on a long walk. She really looks good in this cut. She is trotting particularly proud of herself. I really think she likes it and feel free. I was afraid when I shaved her down all kinds of conformation flaws might be staring me in the face. Instead it made me feel like she looks pretty darned good for a small standard. She is balanced looking. Other than her chest not being as broad as I thought it was under all that fluff, it shows her off! 

I am very happy (and relieved...).


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## faerie

oh i love her in the miami. she's CUTE!


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## Fluffyspoos

Definitely much better! Made me feel like it was spring for a moment! That clip always does!


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## BigRedDog

*dog looks "not so good"*

Oh gosh..well, normally that type of clip (short with poms) is not combined with whatever they added there. The poms are poorly placed..too high up on the leg. One of the things we taught at grooming school was how to use the clip to hide faults...I've never seen grooming actually create them.
I would love to explain how to do the pom pom's but the best thing is to use one of the good pictures as a guide. I would also consider another groomer, this looks like inexperienced work. My students did a better job after a couple of weeks of training then this.
If it was my dog I would scissor her down into a shorter style and let the whole thing grow in. We at least have that going for us, since their coats grow so fast!


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## outwest

I posted after pics, Big Red Dog. She looks great now (to my eye).


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## BorderKelpie

She was made for that clip. What a beauty she is!
Nice and muscular and still feminine. She is a stunner!


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## LEUllman

Now you're talkin'! I love the Miami -- to me it's second only to a CC as the iconic poodle cut. And isn't it fun to see her prance and show off? They sure seem to know when they are looking good.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ahhhhhh...that is SO much better! This clip suits her perfectly. I do not think her chest is narrow. AND her tail set is beautiful!


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## CT Girl

Bonnie looks fantastic! What an improvement. That 15 bucks was well worth it. Looking at the photos of the previous cut it just didn't even look like Bonnie. She is always such a show stopper. I think she looks great - chest included. Any figure flaw would definately show up in that cut but she is stunning. Are you still considering showing AKC? Bonnie definately has the "it" factor.


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## outwest

Thank you everyone. I think she looks great, although I miss her curls already. I was particularly happy to find long, proportional legs!!!! WHOO HOO! I have always thought her front legs looked a little short, but they don't! I was pleasantly surprised at what I found under all that hair. Hair hides a lot! 

Her mama's chest came forward and you could pat it, kind of like my whippets. Bonnie's chest, after examination, is wide enough and deep enough, but it doesn't come forward as much as her mama's did. In retrospect, it doesn't look bad in comparison to many poodles and she carries the genes for a great chest. She has always had a beautiful tail set, right where it is supposed to be. Her long tail just curves some at the end, but that isn't a big deal to me. 

As far as showing AKC? HA! It could be a year before her hair grew out enough to do it. Right now it is a soft blanket of fuzz. We are proud of her UKC Grand Champion. She was just listed on their site as a new title holder. 

I do think she is a nice little spoo in looks and personality. I still haven't spayed her. She will be a year soon. The breeder has retained co-ownership until I spay her. If I decide not to spay her, I have to do a lot of testing in order for the breeder to agree to allow her to be bred. That is what my husband and I are talking about right now- whether to spay her or not. She is a small standard at barely 22 inches, but big enough to be bred to a fullsized one. Breeding her wouldn't happen for a couple years no matter what and may never happen if her testing isn't up to snuff. I haven't decided if I want to wait and breed my own puppy or buy myself another poodle instead (I want another poodle). 

Last night my mother (who lives with me) yelled as we went out the door on a walk, "Bonnie needs a coat on! She has no hair!" I said, "Mom. It is 81 degrees outside. She doesn't need a coat."


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest, what you are noticing is that her shoulders are too far forward. This does not allow for the forechest that you would like to see. Not an uncommon problem in poodles, even AKC champions. She also is a bit straight in the stifle. She is a pretty little bitch though. 

Also, 22 inches is a very nice size for bitches. Not too small at all. I know many breeders with champion and even specialed bitches this size.


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## Countryboy

CharismaticMillie said:


> Also, 22 inches is a very nice size for bitches. Not too small at all. I know many breeders with champion and even specialed bitches this size.


We have ladies at the kennels that range from abt 20" to abt 26". They all make good moms!


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## outwest

CharismaticMillie said:


> Outwest, what you are noticing is that her shoulders are too far forward. This does not allow for the forechest that you would like to see.


I knew there was something not perfect about her front end, but I wasn't sure what it was, so thank you! Her moms chest was forward like you are talking about, poking out in front a bit with legs set back more. Her Dad was more elegant/sparkly/typey with a gorgeous head and body. She got some from each of them. Her chest must come from him. At least it is wide and deep enough. 

As far as her stifle, I have seen much worse, even in AKC show poodles. In fact, I think a bunch of them are too bendy. That messes up their gait turning them into toe draggers or leg flyers in the front. She has a nice, solid gait. 

No matter. It is all cosmetic. I like her just the way she is, imperfections and all.


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## liljaker

outwest said:


> I knew there was something not perfect about her front end, but I wasn't sure what it was, so thank you! Her moms chest was forward like you are talking about, poking out in front a bit. Her Dad was more elegant/sparkly/typey with a gorgeous head and body. She got some from each of them, but her chest must come from him.
> No matter, I like her just the way she is.


She is absolutely perfect from where I sit!


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## CharismaticMillie

It is true that you don't want too much bend of stifle, but the breed standard does call for a well bent stifle.


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## Pudel-Fan

I think she is lovely, I really like her color. I favor smaller standards, although my parti boy grew into a moose and takes up more than his fair share of the bed. lol


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## phrannie

Rowan said:


> O/W,
> Take in an actual picture of a poodle in the clip you want. Tell her it's the Miami trim and it's what you want Bonnie to look like. Sometimes visual aids are your best bet and I always use them with my personal stylist. I also use them when grooming my boys.
> 
> Good luck!


*Yes, yes, yes....find a pic of what you want, and keep the groomer away from her imaginative turn of mind... I don't know all the "terms" for Poo cuts...but to make her legs look longer, her "socks" have to be a little shorter, and where the longer hair comes down from her shoulders needs to be less...just like a short woman (ME!! ), high socks and a long skirt would make me look like I'm standing in hole...*


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## outwest

I had them shave it all off except the bracelets, head, ears and tail (see page 7).


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## lcristi

I wouldn't take her back - whoever did it can't give you what you want.
Can you do it? Let the bracelets grow out a little before you try to reshape them.
There are books...even online instructions.
It looks to me like a bad attempt at a show clip. Shave the jacket off-it doesn't have to be a close shave, a 4 or 5 blade would do it. Leave the topknot and just wait for the bracelets to grow. Don't fix too much or you might regret it.
Good Luck!!!


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## MamaTiff

sigh..... This post has been updated with her new trim.


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## Maura9900

LOVE the new trim! She looks gorgeous!


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## outwest

I thought I would post a quick update for future reference. It has only been 2 1/2 weeks since she was shaved down to 1/8-1/4 inch. Her hair is about 1/2 inch and curling now. It's only been 2 1/2 weeks! It will be fluffy again before I know it. I posted this in case anyone else is afraid their dog will be bald for months and months.


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## 3dogs

I love Bonnies size & think that IF you breed her after all her testing is done etc... that Breeding to a small male in the 20-22" range is much needed. It might not be the AKC champion blah, blah, blah but there is a real need for the smaller standards in the US. There are size restrictions in HOA, many people have a smaller home as they begin their home search or as we are older we downize as well. I love my male at 22" & 35-37lbs. Perfect size for any living situation.


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