# Very slow progress (fearful dog)



## Dechi

Merlin is a very fearful Tpoo. He is 17 months old now and has been with me for about 5 weeks. I am his caretaker and he has bonded to me, but is still fearful of me in a lot of situations. It is hard to comprehend and very frustrating.

We have made a lot of progress, mostly outside. At first he wouldn't walk on a leash, he had never been outside. Now he is good and he loves it. I even tried him off lesah in a safe place and he was ok following me until he froze at one point and flee.

He was doing his business inside and marking, now he is housebroken and knows the pee and poo command. He'll go on the front lawn, tied, or in the fenced back yard, free.

In the house, he is very scared, still. Scared of open spaces, as if something or someone was going to grab him and hurt him. He will come to us on the sofa, but for the rest of the house, 80% od the time he won't come. I have been working on a long lead and a short one. Progress are very slow.

My biggest annoyance : he won't come back in the house if I stand in the doorway. So when it's raining, since he won't come except if I'm sitting on the sofa, and I can't be in his way when he enters, I have to let him run through the house with wet and dirty feet. He rushes to go back to his bed in the living room, and that's when I go to towel him.

This is just a nonsense and very, very frustrating... I mean, this dog only wants to be on my knees as soon as I'm sitting down, but won't come to me or let me approach him directly from out the door. He crunches down as if I'm about to beat the hell out of him !

I didn't used to think he was mistreated, but how can a dog be so fearful if no human ever beat the crap out of him ?

I still have the intention of finding a behaviorist at the three months mark if this problem has not been solved.

In the meantime, 90% of the time I am okay but tonight I needed to vent. It's raining and I had to go get him in the rain, he wouldn't come in because my son was sitting in the kitchen and he was scared of me grabbing him and the towel.

Sigh...


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## patk

try sitting on the floor at the door and calling him. don't glare at him. make sure you have a treat. also, i think i might try spending loving time with him sitting on the floor at the door with it open at other times when it's not a question of calling him in, to send the message that that is a good place to be. i could be crazy, though. this is just a top of the head reaction to reading your dilemma.


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## Countryboy

I wanna show you something if I can find it in Photobucket. I've posted it here before as really unusual behaviour, I would call it 'avoidance', that Tonka came with. It took me five years of NOT hitting him with the leash(?)... or whatever caused this leash avoidance. 

I'm just standing there with the leash in my hand. He knows I want to hook him up but he doesn't really want to come to me. Looks like he's doing everything he can to avoid it.

Anyway, my point is that it took a looong time for this behaviour to vanish... years.

So patience... 'specially with phobias. :angel:


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## Dechi

patk said:


> try sitting on the floor at the door and calling him. don't glare at him. make sure you have a treat. also, i think i might try spending loving time with him sitting on the floor at the door with it open at other times when it's not a question of calling him in, to send the message that that is a good place to be. i could be crazy, though. this is just a top of the head reaction to reading your dilemma.


We practice me sitting on the floor and calling a lot. Everyday. Just not by the door, but it's a good idea, I'll try that. With the level of fear he has, unfortunately he won't take treats.

What makes me mad the most is thinking about what a happy dog he could have been, and all the fun he's missing in life by being so stressed and tensed all the time. How can anyone be heartless enough to do that to a dog ? Especially a breeder who seems to care about her dogs ?


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## Dechi

Countryboy said:


> I wanna show you something if I can find it in Photobucket. I've posted it here before as really unusual behaviour, I would call it 'avoidance', that Tonka came with. It took me five years of NOT hitting him with the leash(?)... or whatever caused this leash avoidance.
> 
> I'm just standing there with the leash in my hand. He knows I want to hook him up but he doesn't really want to come to me. Looks like he's doing everything he can to avoid it.
> 
> Anyway, my point is that it took a looong time for this behaviour to vanish... years.
> 
> So patience... 'specially with phobias. :angel:


5 years... This is discouraging but Merlin is going nowhere, so I guess we'll get there. Although if every phobia he has takes 5 years, we'll never be done !


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## patk

Dechi said:


> We practice me sitting on the floor and calling a lot. Everyday. Just not by the door, but it's a good idea, I'll try that. With the level of fear he has, unfortunately he won't take treats.
> 
> What makes me mad the most is thinking about what a happy dog he could have been, and all the fun he's missing in life by being so stressed and tensed all the time. How can anyone be heartless enough to do that to a dog ? Especially a breeder who seems to care about her dogs ?


it may not have been the breeder. it could have been a visitor, a relative, etc. my male dog that came to me at five months was a bit shy/aloof outside the house, but fine inside, even with visitors. one evening after dark i was out giving him a last walk. a man in dark clothing was heading in our direction and my guy went berserk (as in barking and lunging!) for no reason that i could see. i concluded that somewhere among the help his breeder hired there had been a male that used to tease the dogs. he was fine with men otherwise.

merlin has decided your lap is a safe and good place. (smart dog.) therefore i'm concluding that he needs to learn that your lap is not just available as a refuge on the sofa. it's wherever you are. if he's not treat motivated, is there a toy he especially likes? that could help, too.


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## Tiny Poodles

May not have even been a human, could of been one of the other dogs guarded the door. Timi always hesitates to go up the doggie stairs to the bed because Teaka might be sleeping at the top and will snap at her if she bumps into her.


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## Dechi

patk said:


> it may not have been the breeder. it could have been a visitor, a relative, etc. my male dog that came to me at five months was a bit shy/aloof outside the house, but fine inside, even with visitors. one evening after dark i was out giving him a last walk. a man in dark clothing was heading in our direction and my guy went berserk (as in barking and lunging!) for no reason that i could see. i concluded that somewhere among the help his breeder hired there had been a male that used to tease the dogs. he was fine with men otherwise.
> 
> merlin has decided your lap is a safe and good place. (smart dog.) therefore i'm concluding that he needs to learn that your lap is not just available as a refuge on the sofa. it's wherever you are. if he's not treat motivated, is there a toy he especially likes? that could help, too.


That's true. He was living with about 12-15 other poodles and all the other ones were fine. About the toys, I don't think he's had any in his life, and he doesn't know how to play with a person. He will briefly play with his toys, maybe 10-15 seconds at a time, but if I try to entice him to play, he gets scared and cowards.


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## fjm

Poor little dog - he is very luck to have found someone with patience and dedication! Could you put a dirt trapper mat by the door, and sit on the floor a little further in? My dirt trapping runner is not a thing of beauty, but with 16 small paws trecking mud and dust in umpteen times a day it has made my life a great deal easier!


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> May not have even been a human, could of been one of the other dogs guarded the door. Timi always hesitates to go up the doggie stairs to the bed because Teaka might be sleeping at the top and will snap at her if she bumps into her.


I should try to video him. I mean, he's just a terrified little dog all the time. Not just the door, but any noise, any object that moves, anyone in the house, open spaces, heights, when you pick him up, when you put him down, etc.

He's sooo happy to see me when I come back after leaving him home for 10 minutes or a few hours, he will wag his tail and whine, he will run two feet in front of me, go back to his doggy bed, come back, go to the bed and so forth, but never actually coming to me so I can pet him. I have to make him come to me by approching his bed and tapping my leg (he knows it means I want him to come to me). He then comes reluctantly, tail between his legs, and all the joy has disappeared and the happy moment is gone. How sad is that ?

I think I don't have the tools to help this dog. I didn't think it was that bad. He is a very serious case of an extremely anxious, hypervigilant dog.


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## Dechi

fjm said:


> Poor little dog - he is very luck to have found someone with patience and dedication! Could you put a dirt trapper mat by the door, and sit on the floor a little further in? My dirt trapping runner is not a thing of beauty, but with 16 small paws trecking mud and dust in umpteen times a day it has made my life a great deal easier!


fjm, you will find me weird, but I have no idea what a dirt trapper is... I have a rug by the door, but he rushes in so fast he's barely touching it.

Sometimes I don't feel so patient. I admit I was losing my patience tonight and I'm sure he felt it. I hope I didn't make him worse. :-(


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## patk

i would consider finding a veterinary behaviorist. it may be that he can be helped with medication. i'm thinking of twyla's gracie; the vet started her on prozac and it has helped.


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## Dechi

patk said:


> i would consider finding a veterinary behaviorist. it may be that he can be helped with medication. i'm thinking of twyla's gracie; the vet started her on prozac and it has helped.


I like the idea. A gentle medication for a while might help. I've never heard of veterinary behaviorists and I don't know if there are any in my area. I'll look it up.


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## twyla

Dechi said:


> Merlin is a very fearful Tpoo. He is 17 months old now and has been with me for about 5 weeks. I am his caretaker and he has bonded to me, but is still fearful of me in a lot of situations. It is hard to comprehend and very frustrating.
> 
> We have made a lot of progress, mostly outside. At first he wouldn't walk on a leash, he had never been outside. Now he is good and he loves it. I even tried him off lesah in a safe place and he was ok following me until he froze at one point and flee.
> 
> He was doing his business inside and marking, now he is housebroken and knows the pee and poo command. He'll go on the front lawn, tied, or in the fenced back yard, free.
> 
> In the house, he is very scared, still. Scared of open spaces, as if something or someone was going to grab him and hurt him. He will come to us on the sofa, but for the rest of the house, 80% od the time he won't come. I have been working on a long lead and a short one. Progress are very slow.
> 
> My biggest annoyance : he won't come back in the house if I stand in the doorway. So when it's raining, since he won't come except if I'm sitting on the sofa, and I can't be in his way when he enters, I have to let him run through the house with wet and dirty feet. He rushes to go back to his bed in the living room, and that's when I go to towel him.
> 
> This is just a nonsense and very, very frustrating... I mean, this dog only wants to be on my knees as soon as I'm sitting down, but won't come to me or let me approach him directly from out the door. He crunches down as if I'm about to beat the hell out of him !
> 
> I didn't used to think he was mistreated, but how can a dog be so fearful if no human ever beat the crap out of him ?
> 
> I still have the intention of finding a behaviorist at the three months mark if this problem has not been solved.
> 
> In the meantime, 90% of the time I am okay but tonight I needed to vent. It's raining and I had to go get him in the rain, he wouldn't come in because my son was sitting in the kitchen and he was scared of me grabbing him and the towel.
> 
> Sigh...


Some dogs can be nervous by nature, lord I had one of those Fannie a miniature poodle who was mother to both Flower and Cappi, I got her when she was 8 and had her for 4 brief years. She was a work in progress, she was terrified of everything, from cars to garbage bags. With a lot of patience, massage therapy, acupressure, a thundershirt and good exposure to scary objects she got better. 

Fast forward to Miss Pia Maria, she is fearful of new people and new things, new things are objects like signs, road cones etc stuff that isn't normally there. I completely ignore her fearful reactions, she hides behind me and praise her approaching new things confidently, I also ask people not to pet her straight off, after she's met someone once she confidently greets them the next time, it's takes a lot of patience and a keen eye to figure out what is scaring her.

My experience with Fannie has helped me understand and help Pia be happy and confident.


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## Dechi

My goals are modest with Merlin. 

I don't want the perfect dog. I want a dog who will come to me when called and that is not afraid of me touching him in any situation.

If I get more than that, good. If not, I'm okay with it.


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## lily cd re

I agree with patk that medication may be a very good bridge to being able to make progress with Merlin. If you can reduce his stress at least somewhat with medication then you have a better chance at him being able to take in the messages you are trying to give in training.

My GSD is noise phobic (thunder, fireworks, etc). If the thunder starts on us by surprise we can not make any impression on him. He gets lost in his anxiety. If we know it is coming and give him rescue remedy at least 30 minutes before it hits then it is very easy to get his attention and work on having him do things like sits, downs, rally exercises and the like so that he doesn't focus on the thunder. Having done this routine as consistently as possible has made things a lot better for him.

I understand how much empathy you feel for Merlin. It is so hard to see a dog suffer fear and not be able to diffuse those bad feelings.


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## Tiny Poodles

Oh I feel for you - Teaka was very much in that spectrum, and I got her when she was 16 weeks old, it was just her nature. 
I am sorry, I cannot tell you how long it took, but she certainly progressed to a happy dog who enjoys life, but a big part of that for sure was me accepting that she should be a homebody, and not the intrepid explorer that most of my dogs have been.
To this day, she usually crawls to me when I call her, but she is happy once she gets to me, and I really don't think much about it anymore, it is just who she is. I know it is difficult, but if you can let go of some of the pain that you are feeling for him, I think that things will get better for both of you. If I can feel your pain and worry when you are writing this, no doubt he can feel your pain and worry when you witness his, and it is just confirming to him that there is a good reason to feel that way. I think once you can let go and say "oh well, that's just him", and interact with him like nothing is wrong, eventually, after a good length of time, he will begin to realize that nothing is wrong. 
I still know, but I very much doubt that the average person who comes to visit me notices that Teaka is any different from my other dogs...


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## Tiny Poodles

And while I agree that with a young dog like him, a Veterinary Behaviorist might be a good idea, OMG are they expensive! I looked into it when my regular vet refused to try to medicate Teaka for the separation anxiety that she has been having since we lost Tangee, and there is only one in NYC, and it is thousands of dollars just for the initial assessment and treatment plan (of which insurance only covers $1,000.00). Just doesn't make sense for a 13 year old - I don't need to be told how to do systematic desensitization, I just need medication to help get her through it because when I attempted it, the behavior was worsening and becoming more generalized.
Anyhow, I know that you said that you needed to save money for him to see a dental specialist, so a Veterinary Behaviorist would probably be out of reach for now.


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## TrixieTreasure

Dechi said:


> My goals are modest with Merlin.
> 
> I don't want the perfect dog. I want a dog who will come to me when called and that is not afraid of me touching him in any situation.
> 
> If I get more than that, good. If not, I'm okay with it.


Dechi, you've gotten so much great advice, and I don't have anything to add except, I sure hope things work out for you. It's got to be very hard for you. I wish you the best with Merlin.


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## lisasgirl

I was just going to chime in that your regular vet might be able to prescribe a medication for Merlin if you can't find a veterinary behaviorist. Just a thought, and you know your vet better than I do, but it's worth considering.

You can also try experimenting with calming pheromones like DAP or Rescue Remedy. There are a few plug-in diffusers that might work well. If you think Merlin can handle a collar, Adaptil and Sentry both have collars with calming pheromones on them so that the pheromone follows Merlin around. I haven't used the dog ones, but we used the Sentry collar for cats to help our cat adjust to having a dog in the home. I can't necessarily credit his current calmness to the collar as we did a few other things at the same time, but I know that at least it didn't hurt.


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## fjm

I am not sure what dirt trapping mats are called in the US - this is the sort of thing I mean: [ame]http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=dirt+trapper+mat&sprefix=dirt+trapp%2Caps%2C216[/ame]

I wonder if this book (and website) may be useful - I found her approach very helpful when I was concerned about Popp's mild fearfulness: http://fearfuldogs.com/books-consultations/


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## Dechi

fjm said:


> I am not sure what dirt trapping mats are called in the US - this is the sort of thing I mean: Amazon.co.uk: dirt trapper mat
> 
> I wonder if this book (and website) may be useful - I found her approach very helpful when I was concerned about Popp's mild fearfulness: Guide To Living With & Training A Fearful Dog | Fearful Dogs


Thanks, the link just gets me into Amazon, though. I'm in Canada and my mother tongue is french, so sometimes there are expressions I've never heard of.

I have looked at the fearful dog link, very useful. I haven't bought the book but I might.


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> And while I agree that with a young dog like him, a Veterinary Behaviorist might be a good idea, OMG are they expensive! I looked into it when my regular vet refused to try to medicate Teaka for the separation anxiety that she has been having since we lost Tangee, and there is only one in NYC, and it is thousands of dollars just for the initial assessment and treatment plan (of which insurance only covers $1,000.00). Just doesn't make sense for a 13 year old - I don't need to be told how to do systematic desensitization, I just need medication to help get her through it because when I attempted it, the behavior was worsening and becoming more generalized.
> Anyhow, I know that you said that you needed to save money for him to see a dental specialist, so a Veterinary Behaviorist would probably be out of reach for now.



Yes, you're right. I can't do both, but right now I'm wondering which should come first, the mouth or the brain... Tough to choose !


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> And while I agree that with a young dog like him, a Veterinary Behaviorist might be a good idea, OMG are they expensive! I looked into it when my regular vet refused to try to medicate Teaka for the separation anxiety that she has been having since we lost Tangee, and there is only one in NYC, and it is thousands of dollars just for the initial assessment and treatment plan (of which insurance only covers $1,000.00). Just doesn't make sense for a 13 year old - I don't need to be told how to do systematic desensitization, I just need medication to help get her through it because when I attempted it, the behavior was worsening and becoming more generalized.
> Anyhow, I know that you said that you needed to save money for him to see a dental specialist, so a Veterinary Behaviorist would probably be out of reach for now.


I would never spend this kind of money ! And I don't have insurance for my animals.

I looked it up online and I found the university vet school has this service. It said it costs 19,80$ for the evaluation, which might take 2 hours for a dog... It sounds too little to me so maybe I'll call them to find out. That would be about 1 1/2 hours away from my house.

They have a dental specialist there too, so maybe I could do the two at the same time (if it's really 20$, what the heck).


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## Dechi

lisasgirl said:


> I was just going to chime in that your regular vet might be able to prescribe a medication for Merlin if you can't find a veterinary behaviorist. Just a thought, and you know your vet better than I do, but it's worth considering.
> 
> You can also try experimenting with calming pheromones like DAP or Rescue Remedy. There are a few plug-in diffusers that might work well. If you think Merlin can handle a collar, Adaptil and Sentry both have collars with calming pheromones on them so that the pheromone follows Merlin around. I haven't used the dog ones, but we used the Sentry collar for cats to help our cat adjust to having a dog in the home. I can't necessarily credit his current calmness to the collar as we did a few other things at the same time, but I know that at least it didn't hurt.


i was thinking the same thing too. Someone said a dog on PF took prozac and it helped. Maybe I can just get that.

Thanks for the other suggestions, I have more options now !


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> i was thinking the same thing too. Someone said a dog on PF took prozac and it helped. Maybe I can just get that.
> 
> Thanks for the other suggestions, I have more options now !



I wish my Vet would, she wouldn't.


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh I feel for you - Teaka was very much in that spectrum, and I got her when she was 16 weeks old, it was just her nature.
> I am sorry, I cannot tell you how long it took, but she certainly progressed to a happy dog who enjoys life, but a big part of that for sure was me accepting that she should be a homebody, and not the intrepid explorer that most of my dogs have been.
> To this day, she usually crawls to me when I call her, but she is happy once she gets to me, and I really don't think much about it anymore, it is just who she is. I know it is difficult, but if you can let go of some of the pain that you are feeling for him, I think that things will get better for both of you. If I can feel your pain and worry when you are writing this, no doubt he can feel your pain and worry when you witness his, and it is just confirming to him that there is a good reason to feel that way. I think once you can let go and say "oh well, that's just him", and interact with him like nothing is wrong, eventually, after a good length of time, he will begin to realize that nothing is wrong.
> I still know, but I very much doubt that the average person who comes to visit me notices that Teaka is any different from my other dogs...


You're so right, it hurts a lot. I hadn't realized it before reading what you wrote. I am going through a difficult time myself. I have been unable to work for more than 3 months now and I don't have a diagnosis yet and this is really hard on me. Merlin was part of a plan to help me through it. And he actually is. He is so cuddly and happy just to be with me. 

But you're right Tiny Poodle, I'm not helping by feeling sorry for him. Or getting mad, or anxious. I have to be careful about that.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> You're so right, it hurts a lot. I hadn't realized it before reading what you wrote. I am going through a difficult time myself. I have been unable to work for more than 3 months now and I don't have a diagnosis yet and this is really hard on me. Merlin was part of a plan to help me through it. And he actually is. He is so cuddly and happy just to be with me.
> 
> But you're right Tiny Poodle, I'm not helping by feeling sorry for him. Or getting mad, or anxious. I have to be careful about that.



So sorry for what you are going through. No doubt he is probably picking up on your illness and worry as well.
I know that it is much easier said than done, but really if you can just "let it go" and keep your mind and spirit focused upon the good things, I bet he will soon follow suit!


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## zooeysmom

Dechi, I was wondering if you had received a diagnosis yet. I'm sorry for your current struggles with your health and with Merlin's fear. I know it's hard to be patient, but that's the only way you will make progress with him. You have done a *wonderful *job so far. I think hiring a positive reinforcement trainer might be a more affordable option than a behaviorist. I wouldn't wait any longer on that, if possible. Wishing you the best  Hugs!


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## Dechi

zooeysmom said:


> Dechi, I was wondering if you had received a diagnosis yet. I'm sorry for your current struggles with your health and with Merlin's fear. I know it's hard to be patient, but that's the only way you will make progress with him. You have done a *wonderful *job so far. I think hiring a positive reinforcement trainer might be a more affordable option than a behaviorist. I wouldn't wait any longer on that, if possible. Wishing you the best  Hugs!


Thank you for your concern zooeysmom! I am weighing all I have to do for him versus the cost and benefits. The trainer is certainly a must. I am trying to decide now how to go about everything.


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## FireStorm

Dechi said:


> I would never spend this kind of money ! And I don't have insurance for my animals.
> 
> I looked it up online and I found the university vet school has this service. It said it costs 19,80$ for the evaluation, which might take 2 hours for a dog... It sounds too little to me so maybe I'll call them to find out. That would be about 1 1/2 hours away from my house.
> 
> They have a dental specialist there too, so maybe I could do the two at the same time (if it's really 20$, what the heck).


Veterinary teaching hospitals can be A LOT less expensive than a regular vet. I haven't used one for a dog yet, but I did have a horse that needed orthopedic surgery for a fracture. The regular surgical center quoted something like $3000-$5000 plus hospitalization and the university teaching hospital did the surgery for around $900 total, including hospitalization. I think it's worth looking into, if it's not too far away.


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## Mfmst

I wanted to add some thoughts this morning, but I have a dog on the other end of the spectrum! I agree with zooeysmom that a trainer might help you unlock what motivates Merlin or could add to some of the suggestions you've already gotten for his anxieties. I would absolutely keep the number of the vet school behaviorist and see what their assessment covers. Even in a big city like Houston, it's a rare specialty. I don't think you can beat the expertise of a teaching facility or their prices. Big hug from Texas!


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## Dechi

I called the university vet facility and here are their fees :

Dental would be 320$ + taxes

Behaviorist vet would be 312$ + taxes

Both would then be about 750$ + 120$ in gas (if I go twice). So we're talking about 900$.

My regular vet would be a fraction of the price. He could give me a second opinion about bad breath and prescribe something for anxiety. Then I could pay for a behaviorist after the meds have taken effect.

Still thinking about it.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> I called the university vet facility and here are their fees :
> 
> 
> 
> Dental would be 320$ + taxes
> 
> 
> 
> Behaviorist vet would be 312$ + taxes
> 
> 
> 
> Both would then be about 750$ + 120$ in gas (if I go twice). So we're talking about 900$.
> 
> 
> 
> My regular vet would be a fraction of the price. He could give me a second opinion about bad breath and prescribe something for anxiety. Then I could pay for a behaviorist after the meds have taken effect.
> 
> 
> 
> Still thinking about it.



Well from where I sit, that sounds dirt cheap 
But could your regular Vet do dental x-rays? In my years with dogs I have come to believe that even though specialists are more money at the start, the tend to get right to the heart of the matter quicker and more directly than the regular vet can in some areas so in the long run it winds up costing less.
But boy, 
I would jump on that behaviorist if I were you. Where are you, it would cost way less for me to get on a plane with Teaka and go to that behaviorist. Hum, I wonder if Petplan would cover airfare


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## TrixieTreasure

lisasgirl said:


> I was just going to chime in that your regular vet might be able to prescribe a medication for Merlin if you can't find a veterinary behaviorist. Just a thought, and you know your vet better than I do, but it's worth considering.
> 
> You can also try experimenting with calming pheromones like DAP or Rescue Remedy. There are a few plug-in diffusers that might work well. If you think Merlin can handle a collar, Adaptil and Sentry both have collars with calming pheromones on them so that the pheromone follows Merlin around. I haven't used the dog ones, but we used the Sentry collar for cats to help our cat adjust to having a dog in the home. I can't necessarily credit his current calmness to the collar as we did a few other things at the same time, but I know that at least it didn't hurt.


Wonderful advice! Rescue Remedy helped calm my Trina on many occasions. Her anxiety came from having seizures, but I would think it would help in other situations as well. Trina's mental state deteriorated more as she got older, but I remember how much I appreciated having that Rescue Remedy for her.


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## TrixieTreasure

Dechi said:


> I called the university vet facility and here are their fees :
> 
> Dental would be 320$ + taxes
> 
> Behaviorist vet would be 312$ + taxes
> 
> Both would then be about 750$ + 120$ in gas (if I go twice). So we're talking about 900$.
> 
> My regular vet would be a fraction of the price. He could give me a second opinion about bad breath and prescribe something for anxiety. Then I could pay for a behaviorist after the meds have taken effect.
> 
> Still thinking about it.


From my perspective Dechi, I think that's the best way to go. After all, it could be that getting a prescription from the vet is all that Merlin will need. He may need to be on it for long term, but if I were you, I would get him on meds first before spending all of that money on a behaviorist. Just my opinion of course.


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## Tiny Poodles

Well Teaka was just chosen to be a test dog for a new calming formula that I found on Petguide, I will let you know how it works!


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## lily cd re

I will be interested to hear how Teaka does with the test remedy. Peeves does very well with Rescue Remedy and I just recently set up DAP diffusers in the house, but I am always open to new possibilities.


----------



## mom2Zoe

twyla said:


> Some dogs can be nervous by nature, lord I had one of those Fannie a miniature poodle who was mother to both Flower and Cappi, I got her when she was 8 and had her for 4 brief years. She was a work in progress, she was terrified of everything, from cars to garbage bags. With a lot of patience, massage therapy, acupressure, a thundershirt and good exposure to scary objects she got better.
> 
> Fast forward to Miss Pia Maria, she is fearful of new people and new things, new things are objects like signs, road cones etc stuff that isn't normally there. I completely ignore her fearful reactions, she hides behind me and praise her approaching new things confidently, I also ask people not to pet her straight off, after she's met someone once she confidently greets them the next time, it's takes a lot of patience and a keen eye to figure out what is scaring her.
> 
> My experience with Fannie has helped me understand and help Pia be happy and confident.


Zoe is Pia exactly. She hates when people she doesn't know rush to pet her. It would make me crazy, but I am finally accepting that is who she is.
A friend of mind visited today and I was shocked how Zoe related to her, never has this happened.
Zoe did her usual where she barks when a stranger enters the house for a few mins, then she usually ignores them. My friend was sitting on the couch and Zoe sat on the opposite side. Eventually Zoe moved closer to her and snuggled up to be petted, a real shocker.
She doesn't react to new things in the environment like cones , objects, etc as much anymore.


----------



## patk

dechi, i recommended a veterinary behaviorist because a behaviorist alone is not licensed to prescribe meds. and a vet alone is unlikely to be trained in some of the more complex behaviorial issues. with that said, merlin seems to be fearful but not fear aggressive? if your vet is willing to take on the issue of his behavior, it could be much cheaper. also, some vets who are not trained as veterinary behaviorists do work with and refer patients to trainers who are behaviorists and could be helpful. talk to your vet first if he is someone you generally trust. i think twyla's vet simply prescribed the prozac for grace and it has calmed her down quite a bit. but she was fairly aggressive for a tiny little thing.


----------



## mom2Zoe

I do not have any good advice. Just wanted to say I am sorry what you are going thru with your own illness and with Merlin. I think you have been very patient and doing a fantastic job. He has made progress even though he has a way to go.


----------



## Mfmst

Maybe someone from Canada can share the site for accredited dog trainers. An at home assessment might be $130 or so. I would also try some of the ideas suggested on PF and start with my vet first. It's comforting to know you have a veterinary school with all of the latest equipment and personnel should you need it.


----------



## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well from where I sit, that sounds dirt cheap
> But could your regular Vet do dental x-rays? In my years with dogs I have come to believe that even though specialists are more money at the start, the tend to get right to the heart of the matter quicker and more directly than the regular vet can in some areas so in the long run it winds up costing less.
> But boy,
> I would jump on that behaviorist if I were you. Where are you, it would cost way less for me to get on a plane with Teaka and go to that behaviorist. Hum, I wonder if Petplan would cover airfare


You're welcome anytime ! I'm in Quebec, Canada. The hospital is in St-Hyacinthe (i know you're kidding, but hey!).


----------



## Dechi

TrixieTreasure said:


> From my perspective Dechi, I think that's the best way to go. After all, it could be that getting a prescription from the vet is all that Merlin will need. He may need to be on it for long term, but if I were you, I would get him on meds first before spending all of that money on a behaviorist. Just my opinion of course.


I am leaning towards this solution too. I will take a few more days to think.


----------



## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well Teaka was just chosen to be a test dog for a new calming formula that I found on Petguide, I will let you know how it works!


Yes, please do !


----------



## Dechi

patk said:


> dechi, i recommended a veterinary behaviorist because a behaviorist alone is not licensed to prescribe meds. and a vet alone is unlikely to be trained in some of the more complex behaviorial issues. with that said, merlin seems to be fearful but not fear aggressive? if your vet is willing to take on the issue of his behavior, it could be much cheaper. also, some vets who are not trained as veterinary behaviorists do work with and refer patients to trainers who are behaviorists and could be helpful. talk to your vet first if he is someone you generally trust. i think twyla's vet simply prescribed the prozac for grace and it has calmed her down quite a bit. but she was fairly aggressive for a tiny little thing.


That's right Patk, he is extremely fearful, but never aggressive. To the point I am often surprised he's not trying to bite !

The vet told me there is no Prozac for dogs but they have similar meds. And that it could be prescribed at the clinic.

Tiny Poodle, this vet does dental x-rays, but they are not specialists, and they usually do the X-rays with the dental cleanup.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> You're welcome anytime ! I'm in Quebec, Canada. The hospital is in St-Hyacinthe (i know you're kidding, but hey!).



Oh darn it, I don't think that Petplan coverage extends out of the United States!


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## Mfmst

We have a recent success story with a Prozac equivalent, something your vet could prescribe. It would be wonderful if a short course of something, could allow him to focus and feel safe. I feel sorry that everything is so scary for him.


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## Dechi

Mfmst said:


> We have a recent success story with a Prozac equivalent, something your vet could prescribe. It would be wonderful if a short course of something, could allow him to focus and feel safe. I feel sorry that everything is so scary for him.


Do you have the name for it ? I'd like to discuss it with my vet.


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## twyla

5 mg of Fluoxetine (which is Prozac) is what 7.4 lb chihuahua/ pomeranian mix Gracie takes, and Gracie had inappropriate aggression due to her extremely high strung nature, to complicate matters her only calming influence was gone, she was my mother's dog and my mom passed away 7 weeks ago. I tried a lot of different thing to varying success ( this was also prior to mom's passing) in the last 8 years since I moved in with mom and Grace. So I talked to my vet.

It's something worth while discussing with your vet, it has made a world of difference for her and me, she is a sweet, sweet little dog who was easily overstimulated.


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## twyla

I can feel your frustration.

Funny thing, my Beatrice who is a confident happy little dog will not take a step on our daily walks if I am frustrated or upset, so I use a relaxation technique and clear all negative thoughts from my head, and she senses this and we are off, she has done this since she was a pup. Beatrice is very good for me because I am very high strung. 

I started doing this when I brought home my first feral cat 5-6 year old Mr. Oliver Toes, who pooed and peed when I touched him, he was terrified. So instead of touching, I just sat in the same room and read to him whilst I lay on the floor ( we are tall and scary to the little guys), eventually used techniques I read in "The Tellington Touch" by Linda Tellington, it's a massage therapy. It took six months but I won him over and in the 12 years I had him he preferred a pet over food.

All I can suggest is just relax, take small steps and enjoy small successes.


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## Dechi

twyla said:


> I can feel your frustration.
> 
> Funny thing, my Beatrice who is a confident happy little dog will not take a step on our daily walks if I am frustrated or upset, so I use a relaxation technique and clear all negative thoughts from my head, and she senses this and we are off, she has done this since she was a pup. Beatrice is very good for me because I am very high strung.
> 
> I started doing this when I brought home my first feral cat 5-6 year old Mr. Oliver Toes, who pooed and peed when I touched him, he was terrified. So instead of touching, I just sat in the same room and read to him whilst I lay on the floor ( we are tall and scary to the little guys), eventually used techniques I read in "The Tellington Touch" by Linda Tellington, it's a massage therapy. It took six months but I won him over and in the 12 years I had him he preferred a pet over food.
> 
> All I can suggest is just relax, take small steps and enjoy small successes.


Funny you're saying this. Last night I let him in the front yard to do his business instead of the backyard. This is not the usual routine but I need him to progress to that. It took him 15-20 minutes in the rain to pee. I was inside watching through the door but had to go 2-3 times help him because he was getting entangled and just sitting there looking miserable. Of course I was getting upset but he got a lot of encouragements when he did it. So, this morning I let him out in the front yard, which is the routine. And he usually pees right away and goes right back inside. I was probably still thinking about our fluke last night and he sensed it. He did nothing ! Just acted like he had no idea what to do and stood there, helpless and confused !

That's when I thought my state of mind probably got him confused. Now I have to relax... I'm the anxious type, not someone really zen. Maybe I'm just wrong for him ?


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## Streetcar

Dechi, you are doing a good job. Maybe Merlin came to you to help you learn to relax with him. It's hard to know what the Universe intended, but I really believe our pets are sent to us for reasons we sometimes can't know at the outset. Sometimes maybe we don't know until even they have gone on.

Whether he stays with you or not, his time in your kindness and acceptance means a lot to Merlin, whether he can show it or not. He's a project dog and you are doing better than you think, I bet. Working with a behaviorist like you've considered may help. I don't know if kikopup on youtube has videos on fearful dogs, but maybe look there. You had a great referral to the fearful dogs site, and it's a great one. If you ultimately decide you are not the home for Merlin, I know you'll find him a soft landing. But you might be the right one. You can learn from one another .


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## Dechi

Thank you for your encouragement, Streetcar ! I am feeling discouraged today. He still hasn't peed today. I want to give him free range as I usually do but I can't until he does.

Today I just think I might be in way over my head... Let's hope it gets a little better soon.


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## Dechi

Well, sometimes life is full of surprises. Merlin did not pee until 3pm today, even though I put him outside 5 times. I had to put him in his crate in between, and I could smell pee later somewhere but I don't think I found it...

Anyhow, after he came back inside and was a good boy, I brushed him and we had lots of cuddles on the sofa. Then my daughter wanted to make some yoga photos with all three of our pets. So I brought Merlin to her and the other two and I took picture. After that, for the first time, instead of going back to his bed in the living room, he stayed by me in the open space, which he never does. He stayed the whole time. Then I went to paint my mandalas and he asked to be on my lap. Twice. Which is rare. Then when I was cooking dinner, he stayed around, a few feet away, for more than five minutes. Which he has never done either.

It's like he knew I was discouraged and gave me the fuel I needed...

Here is one of the pictures I took of my daughter and the pets (Lea the blue headed pionus, Merlin and Tamara) :


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## Carolinek

Just got a chance to get caught up on this this thread and I am so sorry to hear of your struggles with Merlin, but also very encouraged by your latest post! Your daughter is beautiful and she is just beaming in that picture. Her yoga balancing pose is probably very reflective of the strength her Mom has. It sounds like little Mr. Merlin is starting to come around- how wonderful that is. Sounds like it was a good day- here's to more of those!


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## Chagall's mom

Dechi said:


> Well, sometimes life is full of surprises...
> It's like he knew I was discouraged and gave me the fuel I needed...


Uplifting to read your happy news! I have every faith Merlin sensed just what you needed. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the photo! Hope things stay in balance.:clover:


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## N2Mischief

Dechi I know this is off topic, but your little chihuahua looks so much like the chihuahua I lost last year to cancer. So cute!!!


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## Dechi

N2Mischief said:


> Dechi I know this is off topic, but your little chihuahua looks so much like the chihuahua I lost last year to cancer. So cute!!!


Oh yes, it's true ! Even the same little tongue sticking out ! Yours was a dark chocolate it seems ? Sorry about your loss, these little dogs are so precious...


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## patk

sounds like merlin is starting to realize with you is a good place to be.


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## zooeysmom

Good boy, Merlin! That picture is so wonderful of your beautiful daughter and pets! Like quite a few others here, I used to be a bird person, so when I see a parrot it makes me miss mine like crazy.


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## Dechi

zooeysmom said:


> Good boy, Merlin! That picture is so wonderful of your beautiful daughter and pets! Like quite a few others here, I used to be a bird person, so when I see a parrot it makes me miss mine like crazy.


Thanks Zooeysmom ! What kind of bird did you have ? Bird people are a different breed, not for everyone ! Lea is a wonderful parrot, she is so right for my family, I just love her !


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## zooeysmom

I had nearly every species at some point (including sweet pionus), but my heart parrot was a Yellow-naped Amazon I raised from birth, who I had to re-home due to allergies and moving back home, after nearly 20 years of having her.


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## Dechi

She's beautiful, it must have been so hard ! I've had to rehome due to allergies as well and I know how painful it is.


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## Dechi

This post brought me luck ! The next days were good, Merlin continued to progress slowly. I guess maybe my own tensions went down a bit and I was more able to help him.

I started giving him less time with me on the sofa and forcing him to come to me in open spaces in order to get cuddles. I sat in different open areas of the house, and petted my Chi who came to me, saying what a nice girl she was. Of course Merlin is jealous so he came to see what was going on and wanted some lovin' too ! After a while he started coming more to me, sticking around when I was doing stuff in the kitchen and wanting to be on my lap while I was sitting at the kitchen table.

Today he stayed closer to me, more often. He even sat between my feet when I was sitting at the kitchen table with my son. Sometimes I read people calling their poodle a velcro dog and I'm starting to think he might be one of them. It's obvious he prefers me and wants to be with me whenever is possible. If not, he'll settle for someone else.

I am very happy about this and I will try to preserve this spirit. I know any change in my level of patience will set us back.

So thanks for letting me vent and responding, it definitely is helping us !


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## Muggles

That's great news Dechi, sounds like awesome progress. Good boy Merlin!


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## patk

good show, merlin and dechi!


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## fjm

Excellent news - and I am glad having a safety valve here to vent your frustration helped. I have read that rescued dogs can be very clingy when they finally find someone who makes them feel safe, so it may be partly that, as well as a poodle thing.


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## lily cd re

Dechi I am so happy to see your update of moving in the right direction. I think you are right that if your tension is relaxing that is helping Merlin.


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## glorybeecosta

My dogs were not rescues, but older most of them 18 months to 3 years when I got them, and they all were velco dogs. I think they missed a lot when they were younger. They will not leave my side.

You mentioned you baby was taken out 5 times and did not pee. My Bella only goes out 2 times a day 6:30am and between 5:30 and 6:30 PM and if out side she still will only go 2 times. If I try to get her to go early, she justs sits down, like no I do not have to go. So maybe he won't go often. Now Cayenne 5 times a day and she is 2 yrs old. I blame that on using the potty patch


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## Dechi

glorybeecosta said:


> My dogs were not rescues, but older most of them 18 months to 3 years when I got them, and they all were velco dogs. I think they missed a lot when they were younger. They will not leave my side.
> 
> You mentioned you baby was taken out 5 times and did not pee. My Bella only goes out 2 times a day 6:30am and between 5:30 and 6:30 PM and if out side she still will only go 2 times. If I try to get her to go early, she justs sits down, like no I do not have to go. So maybe he won't go often. Now Cayenne 5 times a day and she is 2 yrs old. I blame that on using the potty patch


Merlin is not really a rescue, but he acts like one. He's from the breeder's, not having been socialized because of a broken paw and just because of the lifestyle of a busy breeder with 4 intact males and many females and puppies. Being really timid, he just never blossomed.

The not peeing was my fault. I changed his routine and sounded anxious when I asked him to do his business. These two factors combined just made him freeze.

He is so sensitive to everything, it's really incredibly hard sometimes.


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## Dechi

I finally was able to put some weight on Merlin. With the neutering and eating raw that he likes, he is now 6 pounds as of this morning. He was very skinny at 5 pounds before. That's a 20% increase in weight, so it's a lot. I wasn't sure if he should be 6 or 7 pounds, but 6 is a very good weight for him.

Except that he ate less last night, and even less tonight, not even 50% of his usual meal. Why ? His routine changed. He eats in his crate, where I have made an office for my daughter, who's studying law at university. Usually she isn't there when he eats. But now she's preparing for mid-term and she spends a lot more time in there. It happened before that he had to eat with her in the office, and he ate it all. But for whatever reason that I don't understand, he has been more nervous the past 2-3 days. Anyways, I put him back in there to finish his meal when my daughter got out of the room, left him for about 10-15 minutes, but he ate nothing more. I told my daughter that she had to get out tomorrow so he would eat.

Last night I tried a new thing : instead of closing the door to his crate for the night, I left it open so he could have the choice to stay in the crate or go sleep in the doggy bed with his Chi sister. Well, I guess he got anxious from it because he got out of the crate and peed on the floor. Probably early in the night, which means he didn't really have to go, because it was dry and cristallized in the morning. I guess he just didn't know what to do with himself.

This dog is quite the challenge ! He completely depends on a fixed routine to be at ease, and even then, he is sooo anxious 90% of the time !

I am taking him to the vet next week. I want him on some anxiety medication, I want some antibiotics for maybe a sinus infection (he has horrendous breath and dry nose) and I want a second opinion on his teeth cleaning (to make sure it was well done and is not causing the bad breath).

Feeling a bit discouraged again, but that too will pass !


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## lily cd re

Dechi I am sorry you feel discouraged again over this, but there is also good news in your post as I see it. You got the weight on Merlin that he needed. Also you gained another insight about how strongly he needs his routines to feel safe. I find rescues often are a one step forwards, two steps back, three steps forward...kind of situation. You are obviously a very patient person and I am sure that Merlin will come to thrive in his own way with your caring.


----------



## Dechi

Thank you lily for your kind words. You're right when you say one step forward, two steps back, or vice-versa. I had read it somewhere but forgot. 

Funny thing is I am everything but patient. I am the most impatient person in the world. That is probably my most annoying fault. I guess with him I am different, because I understand how he is. Maybe not why, but I do feel him a lot.

I can't wait to see what I'll be writing avout him on PF in 1 year from now...


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## lily cd re

Yes when I posted last night I was also thinking I wonder what she will be talking about in a year. Good for you to be able to think that far and realize your conversations about Merlin will be very different.


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## Shamrockmommy

It's important to know that neglect (not interacting and handling a puppy/dog) can look exactly like abused dogs. Exactly. 

Keep doing what you are doing. You've accepted him as he is, and that's enough tools honestly. With Jack, it took him a couple years to come around and he's still afraid of most of the things that frightened him but he is at least able to calm himself down. 

Also can't recall if you have additional dogs but having him see how a stable dog interacts may help. 

When you call him to you and he is cowering tail tucked tell him how wonderful he is with each step. Some poodles are just so very extremely sensitive. 

Keep us updated!


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## lily cd re

Shamrockmommy profound neglect is abuse. It leaves a very social animal fearful of social contact. I agree with you completely.


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## Dechi

Shamrockmommy said:


> It's important to know that neglect (not interacting and handling a puppy/dog) can look exactly like abused dogs. Exactly.
> 
> Keep doing what you are doing. You've accepted him as he is, and that's enough tools honestly. With Jack, it took him a couple years to come around and he's still afraid of most of the things that frightened him but he is at least able to calm himself down.
> 
> Also can't recall if you have additional dogs but having him see how a stable dog interacts may help.
> 
> When you call him to you and he is cowering tail tucked tell him how wonderful he is with each step. Some poodles are just so very extremely sensitive.
> 
> Keep us updated!


Thanks for the advice. I do have another dog, a small Chihuahua, and I use her a lot. He's jealous of any attention I give so, so it helps !


----------



## Dechi

Here's a video I just took of me calling him in an open space. It took me 7 weeks to get there. And you can see he's really uncomfortable and ready to flee. But it's great progress for him !


http://vid68.photobucket.com/albums/i34/Sidech/Merlin/IMG_0412_zps8kere1wl.mp4


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## Beaches

And another 7 weeks will see a tremendous difference I am guessing. He trusts you, just not the environment.... You are doing really well with him.


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## MollyMuiMa

Awww! He's doing great!


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## zooeysmom

Merlin is so precious--I wish I could squeeze him  You are doing a fabulous job with him. I think a little anxiety medication is a great idea.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Dechi said:


> This post brought me luck ! The next days were good, Merlin continued to progress slowly. I guess maybe my own tensions went down a bit and I was more able to help him.
> 
> I started giving him less time with me on the sofa and forcing him to come to me in open spaces in order to get cuddles. I sat in different open areas of the house, and petted my Chi who came to me, saying what a nice girl she was. Of course Merlin is jealous so he came to see what was going on and wanted some lovin' too ! After a while he started coming more to me, sticking around when I was doing stuff in the kitchen and wanting to be on my lap while I was sitting at the kitchen table.
> 
> Today he stayed closer to me, more often. He even sat between my feet when I was sitting at the kitchen table with my son. Sometimes I read people calling their poodle a velcro dog and I'm starting to think he might be one of them. It's obvious he prefers me and wants to be with me whenever is possible. If not, he'll settle for someone else.
> 
> I am very happy about this and I will try to preserve this spirit. I know any change in my level of patience will set us back.
> 
> So thanks for letting me vent and responding, it definitely is helping us !


This is very good! Slow is good. It means that things are sinking in, he's having time to digest it all, process it all, apply it and that is what takes long, BUT is good. Slow and steady is the best way for dogs like this to become more stable and become the dog you wished for. Your patience is paying off. :angel:


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## mom2Zoe

He is doing great and all because of you!! He is a darling!


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## Carolinek

That's great progress! He is so cute.


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## Dechi

We went to the vet today. His ears are fine, no more infection. 

His teeth have tarter, definitely, he has grade 1. This proves the previous vet did a s... job, just as I thought. The vet says some dogs are just more prone to having tartar. He also has gingivitis. They gave me a free bag of T/D to help with the back teeth. I was willing to try but he won't touch it, he's very finicky. So I'm stuck with brushing, which is hard to do with him. Dr. Boisvert said to try brushing for a while and we'll see if we do some radios. They have the machine for it.

For his anxiety, she prescribed Clomicalm 5mg. She is trying to have it made for me in a liquid form, as Merlin is hard to give food to, and when I go back to work, I'm afraid it's going to be a battle every morning (it's given twice a day). A liquid in a syringe will be easier. The pill version is about 65$ per month at the lower dosage, double if we go full dosage after a while. I asked for a prescription so I can buy from the internet. She was trying to dissuade me but they can give it to me if need be, after charging me an extra 10$ for it... i checked on the internet and I can have a supply of pills for 3 months for 94$ including shipping ! I will give them the chance to sell at the same price and if not, I'll buy online. She said that the liquid version will probably cost less, so we'll see. Dr Boisvert recommended a 160$ blood test before giving the meds, just so we have something to compare to if ever the meds cause side effects. I said I would wait. I mean, we don't even do this for humans, why systematically want to do so many tests for dogs ? I feel vets have become a business in a lot of ways, unfortunately. It is not the first time this clinic tries to sell me useless tests, so I was expecting it. At least they don't make you feel bad when you say no.

Also, Dr Boisvert gave me the name of the only 3 recognized behaviorists in the area. 2 are vets and 1 isn't. I will choose the vet who is closer, because she can also adjust the medication at the same time. I figure i might wait 1 month or 2 and then make an appointment. I don't have the money for this right now and I don't want to wait to start the meds, which are quite expensive too.

Last thing, she said his weight is perfect, so I am happy about that. 

So overall, good vet visit.


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## Tiny Poodles

Just stick with the tooth brushing - they never learn to love it, but eventually they accept that it is happening like it or not.
If it is affordable, I would go with the veterinary behaviorist before starting any meds. When I was asking around about The meds for Teaka, several people told me that their dogs experienced some pretty bad medical side - effects from them (that may be why the vet wanted to do baseline bloodwork, just to be sure he was not iffy on any of his values to begin with which the meds could make worse).


----------



## patk

my dogs didn't fight the toothbrushing. i would let them lick a bit of the toothpaste first. afterwards they would run their tongues over their teeth, too. it was funny. but their teeth were in the best condition when i was still able to get those baked veal neck bones from new zealand.


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## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> my dogs didn't fight the toothbrushing. i would let them lick a bit of the toothpaste first. afterwards they would run their tongues over their teeth, too. it was funny. but their teeth were in the best condition when i was still able to get those baked veal neck bones from new zealand.



They love the taste of the CET tarter control paste I am afraid of bones resulting in cracked teeth. After Tangee and Teaka loosing a lot of their teeth due to fractures, I am now super cautious about giving Timi hard crunchy things - you know how dogs just chomp down as hard as they can with no reservations... A clean tooth is no good if it gets fractured.


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## fjm

Mine love the Virbac toothpaste, so much so that they tolerate the brushing for the sake of the toothpaste - they get an extra lick as a reward, too. You may find a soft cloth over your finger easier to use than a brush. I do hope the drugs help.


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Just stick with the tooth brushing - they never learn to love it, but eventually they accept that it is happening like it or not.
> If it is affordable, I would go with the veterinary behaviorist before starting any meds. When I was asking around about The meds for Teaka, several people told me that their dogs experienced some pretty bad medical side - effects from them (that may be why the vet wanted to do baseline bloodwork, just to be sure he was not iffy on any of his values to begin with which the meds could make worse).


What she gave me is supposed to be what the behaviorist vet prescribes the most. It is a tricyclic antidepressor, just like for humans. I have been on those myself and never had blood work before. I am not a dog, but still... Vets want to do tests for their own pocket too... Of course we want to make sure our animals are well taken care of, but there is a limit. I always ask myself, before paying for a test " would my own doctor do this for me ? " and I use it as a baseline to make my decision. So far it's worked very well.

I mean, I wish I had just the dogs and parrot to pay for, but I have one kid in college and one in university also !


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> What she gave me is supposed to be what the behaviorist vet prescribes the most. It is a tricyclic antidepressor, just like for humans. I have been on those myself and never had blood work before. I am not a dog, but still... Vets want to do tests for their own pocket too... Of course we want to make sure our animals are well taken care of, but there is a limit. I always ask myself, before paying for a test " would my own doctor do this for me ? " and I use it as a baseline to make my decision. So far it's worked very well.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, I wish I had just the dogs and parrot to pay for, but I have one kid in college and one in university also !



Too bad you did not get him insurance, healthcare for dogs has advanced, but that also means it has gotten crazy expensive...


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## zooeysmom

Tiny Poodles said:


> Too bad you did not get him insurance, healthcare for dogs has advanced, but that also means it has gotten crazy expensive...


Wouldn't his conditions have been pre-existing, though?


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Too bad you did not get him insurance, healthcare for dogs has advanced, but that also means it has gotten crazy expensive...


I have started researching Pet insurance, after reading some of your posts and others. In Canada, Pet insurance is not as good as in the states, at least not in my province. I could cover both my dogs for about 60$ per month, but it's a limited coverage. The most favorite plan, the one you have, don't remember the name, is not available in my province.

I might just cover my Chi, who's getting older, and wait for Merlin.


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## Dechi

zooeysmom said:


> Wouldn't his conditions have been pre-existing, though?


Yes, I guess it would be. Also is anxiety considered a medical condition ?

This dog is costing a lot of dough, that's for sure. You gotta love them !


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Yes, I guess it would be. Also is anxiety considered a medical condition ?
> 
> 
> 
> This dog is costing a lot of dough, that's for sure. You gotta love them !



Yes, Petplan does cover it, but it is only condition that they put a cap on, $1,000, which would not get us in the door of a behavioral vet in NYC.


----------



## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Yes, Petplan does cover it, but it is only condition that they put a cap on, $1,000, which would not get us in the door of a behavioral vet in NYC.


I called today for prices for the behavioral vet and it's 288$ plus tax for the first visit (2 1/2 hours) and then 130$ for follow-ups.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> I called today for prices for the behavioral vet and it's 288$ plus tax for the first visit (2 1/2 hours) and then 130$ for follow-ups.



Jealous! Here it is thousands for just the initial assessment.


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## Dechi

Come to Canada ! We'll have a doggy playdate...


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Come to Canada ! We'll have a doggy playdate...



It would probably cost less including the airfare, just don't think that Petplan would cover it - they are good, but not that good lol


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## zooeysmom

Tiny Poodles said:


> Jealous! Here it is thousands for just the initial assessment.


Really? That's insane. Criminal.


----------



## Dechi

The vet called me back yesterday. The liquid version of Clomicalm, made especially for me by a company called " Summit " will cost me 43$ for 50 days, which is reasonable compared to almost 60$ for 30 days with the pills...

So I ordered it and i should get it beginning of next week. Can't wait to start Merlin on it !


----------



## Dechi

The vet called me today and I got the meds ! I started the first dose tonight. He's in bed now but he seemed okay within the first hour I gave it. Second dose tomorrow morning and so forth.

We'll see how it goes, fingers crossed ! Dr Boisvert told me the first month he would be calmer because of a little drowsiness, which would not mean the med is working, but merely a side effect. We'll see how it is from the second month on. 

So I figure I should start behavior training on the second month. I think i'll do that.


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## Dechi

What a change today ! We went to a safe place so i could drop the leash on the ground and have him follow me. The first and last time I tried this was about 1 month ago, same place.

Today he was soooo good ! He was paying attention to me, looking back to make sure he wasn't going too far, and when I was calling him, he just came back running, happy and tail high ! Wow, this is so great ! I felt like I had a " real " dog this time...

Can you find Merlin ?



Happy boy


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## fjm

That is happy news! It sounds as if the drugs may do exactly what you need and enable him to relax and grow in confidence.


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## PoodleRick

That's great news. I love reading about positive progress. Keep up the good work.

Rick


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## Dechi

Thank you fjm and PoodleRick ! You think it might be the meds working after only 4-5 days ? I was wondering about that...


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## Mfmst

A www! Seeing your pretty puppy in the autumn leaves and hearing that he is making progress. All good! I'm very happy for both of you.


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## lily cd re

Nice pics. He does look happy and seeing him at some distance just being a dog is quite a great sight to see.

I hope using meds continues to serve as the great bridge to a happy well adjusted life that Merlin deserves. He is lucky that you, with your knowledge and caring patience, were the one to adopt him.


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## PoodleRick

lily cd re said:


> Nice pics. He does look happy and seeing him at some distance just being a dog is quite a great sight to see.
> 
> I hope using meds continues to serve as the great bridge to a happy well adjusted life that Merlin deserves. *He is lucky that you, with your knowledge and caring patience, were the one to adopt him.*


That's the truth. Too many people give up when things don't go perfectly from the start. So good on you Dechi.

Rick


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Thank you fjm and PoodleRick ! You think it might be the meds working after only 4-5 days ? I was wondering about that...



I think that they could be, but usually psychotropic meds take a few weeks to develop a blood level, so perhaps down the road you may need to lower his dose - keep that in mind.


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## Poodlebeguiled

You're just an amazing dog mom! Merlin is coming right along and you're doing everything possible to help him become all he can be. That seems like a very reasonable price for a behavior session and also the drugs. Merlin is adorable and those pictures are just so pretty. He's enjoying himself and that is the goal. You're well on your way I think to bringing this little fella out of his shell.


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## Dechi

Today was not a good day... Merlin seems more nervous than usual. I started weaning him off his anxiety meds, thinking they weren't doing much so I would wait until I was ready for the behaviorist vet to see what she would put him on. And this has to wait until after Christmas.

I am weaning slowly, but I think it's showing. Today he was nervous around me, crounching down as I approached him standing up. As if I was going to hit him. And tonight I took him for a walk, because it had been raining too much all day. That was a disaster, he was panicking and throwing himself everywhere, dangling from his harness when I pulled on the leash so he wouldn't get hit by passing cars ! He looked like a crazy, maniac dog !

I kept on walking because I didn't want to end the walk on that note. After maybe 10 minutes, he stopped throwing himself on the side but remained worried the whole walk, tail between the legs and ears back. He had no fun and neither did I !

It might be because I haven't walked him at night in a long time, because he had to get used to doing his business in the backyard and I didn't want to confuse him so we walked during the day.

Tomorrow, if it doesn't rain, or little, I'll take him for his regular walk, and see if he's acting more anxious. And if so, he's back on his full dose !

This is discouraging, honestly. I can't say this dog will ever enjoy life fully. It is so complicated living with him. His routine is complicated, handling him is also. Everything has to be done a certain way, and I'm the only one who could possible know how to do everything. My daughter can do the morning and night routine, thank god. Maybe I am protecting him too much and I shouldn't emphasize the routine so much.

I don't know anything anymore. So confused tonight !


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## Poodlebeguiled

Awwwww....Dechi. I am so terribly sorry you are going through this. I do think the walk at night which he isn't use to had everything to do with his panic. I'd keep him on those drugs. The poor little fella. I'd keep this pup in the environment where he is the least unhappy and not try to stretch him to do other things or go other places...and see what the behaviorist says. I'm just so sorry you're being so torn up about this little fella. I would be too. (((hugs))) And no, you're not protecting this little dog too much. He needs protecting.

If he can't enjoy life at all ever...if it were me, I'd consider releasing him from this torture. But see what the behaviorist thinks as to a prognosis. It is so sad that it seems he's coming along, then it doesn't. I just can't imagine what caused this extreme situation....either a complete lack of socialization to humans early on...or extreme abuse I'd say. I'm just so sorry.:sad:


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## Shamrockmommy

I agree. Keep him in the house and out to potty only. Ignore him completely indoors, because even if you sweet talk him, you are still noticing him which to him feels like a threat. 

I don't think it would be unkind in the least to let him go from his traumatic world. I had a bichon who I got at four months and I knew he was just not right. Much the same anxiety as your pup. Only sometimes he would bite unexpectedly. 

I spent four years and a lot of love, money and heartache trying to reach this poor boy. One day he bit my hand so badly (he was afraid of me/everything) that I decided this was no way for him to live, constantly in mental torture and turmoil. It was traumatic for me putting down such a young dog but I realized he had no more terror, and no longer had to fight the demons that haunted him. 

I would support you fully in whichever choice you make and I wish you the best for this guy. :heart:


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## Dechi

Thank you PBG and Shamrock for your encouragements. I am not ready to give up. I have heard it might take 1 year for him to turn around. He is so good outside during the day, he's a totally different dog ! I was even starting to look for agility classes (maybe too far fetched for now, but hey, dreaming is good...).

We are going to my parents for 5 days at Christmas. I can't imagine how he's going to be... I expect the worse and hope for the best. I've already told my parents not to look at him, talk to him or touch him. I hope he follows my Chi or me around a bit so he finds relief. And I'll bring his crate, his doggy bed, his own bowl. This will be a good test for him. 

I don't think I could ever put him down. I am his person now. He wants to be with me, only me. He will be on someone else's lap as a replacement, but as soon as I'm available, he'll come to me.

It's just bad timing, my finances aren't good right now and he has cost me so much money already ! That's why I Have to wait for the behaviorist. Oh well, life sometimes has its ways !


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## MollyMuiMa

I have no words of advice but I have tons of sympathy for both you and Merlin. Peace to you both...................


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## Tiny Poodles

I am really sorry that you are having these issues. I have had a couple of fearful dogs in my life, and I understand how much you suffer their distress right along with them.
Ultimately you do need to make some adjustments in what you expect from them and your lifestyle, but they can be very happy homebodies. I wonder if when you have better defined what Merlin's limitations are, if you might enjoy getting another dog that you could enjoy going for walks and participating in activities with?


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## fjm

I think you need to cut yourself some slack! Merlin has made huge progress in your care, and in time will make more. Think of all the things he was terrified of when you first got him, and how much better he is with so many of them. He will probably always be fearful of new situations; he may well come to adapt to them more and more quickly, but it is still early days. I would work on consolidating the good things and on making him feel ultra safe in his crate and bed, so that he has a place to retreat to over the holidays. If night time walks terrify him avoid them or keep them to a minimum - who knows, by next year he may be able to cope. Resist the temptation to push things along and let him go at his own pace so that he feels in control of what is happening. Remember, more haste less speed!


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## Dechi

Thanks Molly, TP and fjm, I appreciate your kind words, always.

When you're too close to the picture, you don't see the details anymore.

TP, I would like another poodle eventually, but not as long as I have my Chihuahua. 2 is already a lot when you're working full time, and sometimes long hours. Also I still have slight allergies to Merlin. I have to let my immune system get used to him before I add any more pets, or I will regret it.

Funny I thought my daughter would take the Chi with her when she'd leave home, in two years or so. But since Merlin has been home, the little Chi has very little interest in my daughter. She wants to be where Merlin is, always. I find it so weird... So I guess she'll have to stay with me and her new boyfriend !


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Thanks Molly, TP and fjm, I appreciate your kind words, always.
> 
> 
> 
> When you're too close to the picture, you don't see the details anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> TP, I would like another poodle eventually, but not as long as I have my Chihuahua. 2 is already a lot when you're working full time, and sometimes long hours. Also I still have slight allergies to Merlin. I have to let my immune system get used to him before I add any more pets, or I will regret it.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny I thought my daughter would take the Chi with her when she'd leave home, in two years or so. But since Merlin has been home, the little Chi has very little interest in my daughter. She wants to be where Merlin is, always. I find it so weird... So I guess she'll have to stay with me and her new boyfriend !



Well it sounds like Merlin is already an important part of your family, so I am sure that you will make whatever adjustments are necessary for all to be happy. He is very lucky to have such a caring and observant Mom, and I am certain that you an work out a peaceful balance for your life!


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## Dechi

The weather was nice enough today so we went on our usual 1 hour walk. I wanted to see how he is with the meds being in lesser quantity (I am down to 0,6 ml instead of 1 ml now).

He was a bit different than before, but not in a bad way. He was more in tune with me, it's hard to explain. You know when you look at a well trained dog and he's constantly making eye contact with the owner, turning his head on the side ? Well he was doing that today. I don't know why, it's not like he's a super trained dog at all, although he is very intelligent and understands what I want fast ! 

Except for one incident. We were in the park, near the gate we usually go through, and I have to do a recall there because there will be no fence about 20 feet ahead, so I need to get the leash back in my hands. So I called him and instead of coming right back, running and happy like he's been doing for the past month or so, he did like in the first days, cowering, coming a few feet from me and fleeing, coming back and so forth. So I took the hood off my head, moved a few feet left and forward, bent down on the grass and called him again. This time he came. So we practiced a few more times before continuing the walk, and he did fine at the same spot.

Further on our walk, he was his usual self, coming back when called, except as I said before he was being more observant of me at times and wanted to play and run a lot.

I need a few more walks to decide but for now I still think he needs off his meds. I don't like medicating an animal forever and I hate the fact that sometimes, it goes down his throat the wrong way I guess and he can choke on this small quantity of liquid for 15-20 minutes !

I started teaching him the " up " command on the walk as well, at very low heights, in hope he can eventually be able to jump on the sofa and gain confidence at the same time. Started to teach him to stop at the end of the sidewalk, and wait until I give a signal to cross. This is the first step to being completely leash free on walks, which we probably never will get to, but it's still useful to keep them from bolting in the street if ever the leash comes off.


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## lily cd re

I agree with you about not wanting to use meds for life for Merlin's issues. I think you should view having had him on something for a relatively short amount of time as a tool that let you move past some of the things that were blocking his progress. He sure is lucky to have connected with you.

I am happy you were getting that connected look from him. When I see that gleam in Lily's eyes as she looks up at me there is nothing better. With Javelin he seems to have a natural check in.


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## fjm

Sounds as if he was not sure that it was still you with the hood covering your head. And it also sounds as if you have found the right dosage just for the moment - confident and connected, and able to enjoy learning. I think I would agree with getting him off drugs in due course, but I also think I would hold at this level for a while before reducing any further, if his quality of life is so much improved.


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## Dechi

I am still hesitant. Not a bad idea to keep him on a half dose for a while.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> I am still hesitant. Not a bad idea to keep him on a half dose for a while.



Try to think of it not as a drug, but as replacing a naturally occurring neurotransmitter in his brain - more like along the lines of giving a diabetic insulin, or a hypothyroid dog thyroid replacement hormones rather than drugging him.


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## Dechi

We went back yesterday and no hesitation at the same spot, the recall was good! He was good all through the walk and even made a girlfriend, a funny looking but cute Yorkie girl named " Cocotte ". Her owner wasn't gonna let her play or anything so he just had the time to politely smell her derriere...

He let her go as soon as she was starting to be too far away from me, so I was happy about that.

Now I know for a fact that no dog or cat or squirrel can be a distraction. The only thing I need to worry about are things that might scare him (so that means just about anything...).


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## Dechi

Tonight we had a big setback. He was at a half dose, and hadn't had his second daily dose yet (and it was time to) so I suppose with half a dose, by the end of the day, there isn't enough medication left in his blood.

I let the two dogs outside before going to bed, as usual. I forgot to give him his medication before, so I was going to give it to him after. They go outside, the Chi comes back first like always, and I let her in.

A few minutes pass and Merlin isn't coming back. I see him in the back and I figure he's probably rolling in the dirt like he did earlier (he just had a bath) so I call him back. He hesitates, comes back running and then stops before the stairs. He finally climbs them but stops halfway on the deck, looking right, looking left, looking behind, very scared. He turns back and goes down the stairs. I let him be for 2 minutes. Call him. Same scenario. This goes on for a good 10 minutes. Then he comes in running, after I cleared the door, just like the first days. No sitting on the doormat like he had learned and had been doing for the past 2-3 weeks. So I bring him back, but he is terrified. I tried to desensitize but I shouldn't have, it made it worse. And I was getting impatient and very frustrated. Finally I let him go and put them both to bed. But I was not happy. Not good. 

So anyways, I gave him an increased dose, 0.8 ml. I will bring him back to the full dose. I made up my mind, I'm calling the vet tomorrow and I want them to give me a prescription so I can order online, it is much cheaper. Unless they can do the same price for me.

So, in conclusion, I am a bit discouraged because this means Merlin has essentially made no progress at all, because without the meds, there are no progress anymore. It probably means that he has been too neglected to correct. And that meds are there to stay forever. I mean, we were litterally back to day 1 when I first got him tonight ! It was horrible. Also, I realize that I have less patience for this behavior now, because I have put so much effort in him, and I have no gains to show for... Nothing ! I can't be impatient with him, or I am going to ruin everything. Tonight he felt my negative energy and he was affected by it.

This will serve me as a reminder of how messed up he is. It is so sad. I am angry and frustrated tonight. I hope Merlin can forgive me tomorrow. 

This is the last time I get an undersocialized dog. If anyone is reading this, please think about it hard before you do.


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## lily cd re

I am so sorry to see this.


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## coffee&curls

I'm not so sure I'm going to be of much help but I am going to do my best  You deserve a bubble bath, some good wine and a moment to just take a deep breath and let the frustration melt away. It's ok to feel frustration, that's totally human. Just don't let it paralyze you, allow it to build resentment towards Merlin or make you lose hope.

Humans and dogs are not the same, so please don't let anyone hear me say that when I make this comparison. But perhaps you need to think of this as being a bit similar to someone who has a mental condition that requires the aid of medication and therapy to get them to a stable state. It doesn't make them any less valuable as people. On the flip side being on medication doesn't negate all the gains they make from therapy. It's kind of like a puzzle, therapy alone doesn't address all their needs to get better and neither do the meds. All the pieces need to come into place to create that completed picture for them and their specific needs. Puzzles also take time to build and connect, they don't just instantly complete themselves. It will take Merlin time to get to a complete picture of relaxed happiness. And just like how some people who work hard towards their health with meds and therapy will have great days and bad days so may Merlin. He had a bad day but that doesn't negate the many days of good. Tomorrow is a new day to pick back up on your good note. Think of his training as his therapy, because it really is. 

If it provides any comfort I've heard many people say that some of their most challenging pets were also their greatest blessings. Who knows, maybe Merlin's completed puzzle picture will be the most beautiful picture of a dog you have ever seen. Time and hard work will tell.

I will say this when I worked at a vet clinic we told clients whose animals were on similar types of drugs that it may take 2 to 3 weeks to take full effect. Here's what makes me a little nervous with Merlin here, these are not the type of medications that you can just keep changing your dosage on. I haven't read the entire thread but have you talked with your vet about what you are doing with the dosage? Normally these types of medications are something that you spend a couple of weeks on a low dose then you build up the dosage slowly to a good level. When it's time to come off of the meds we recommended clients slowly wean their pet off of it (which was supervised by the vet). It's important because you are talking about medications that affect balances in the brain. If you are not being advised by a veterinarian on the dosages that you are giving to Merlin then I think you need to consult a vet asap about a good dosage to start with and do not change that dosage at all for a few weeks. If he is on meds then they need to be consistent and the dosage needs to be firm for awhile. You can actually cause him more problems by being all over the place with an antidepressant. Not saying all hope is lost but doing this may help you out a ton.

Edit: I just want to add that antidepressants don't work in the sense that you take a morning dosage and by noon you need to get one in or everything is out of your system. A really good comparison is that they work similarly to birth control pills. You aren't suddenly protected because you took one pill and suddenly in a code red alert because you were late taking one. Birth control takes time to build up in your system and leave it because it messes with hormone levels. It's most effective when taken consistently at the same time. And it can really mess you up if you are all over the place with it and not taking consistent dosages. An antidepressant will be similar for pathways for the brain. It's altering levels in the brain, takes time to fully build up in the system and wean off. The worse thing that can happen is to not take it consistently and the same dose consistently. I really feel that if Merlin needs meds, even if it is temporary, that this needs to happen to see them helping him fully.


----------



## catsaqqara

"It probably means that he has been too neglected to correct."

Have you tried counter conditioning? If you have not I strongly recommend it before giving up hope in his recovery. 
Bambi had been afraid of clicking noises, a spot she wouldn't walk because of slipping, when I would chop food, thick paper slapping sound and she would shy away and look pitiful. I used counter conditioning to allow her to get over her fears. Now clicks don't bother her (and she is clicker trained), she became fine with that spot, she is hopeful when I chop food that she'll get some, and we now have a game with envelopes and the like where she tries to bite it while I try to get her behind. 


I posted a lot of helpful videos for shy/nervous/fearful dogs in another thread. I don't know if you saw my post but I'll give you a link to that thread instead of copying and pasting.
http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/180050-ellie-rescue-day-now-2yrs-later.html


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## Tiny Poodles

coffee&curls said:


> I'm not so sure I'm going to be of much help but I am going to do my best  You deserve a bubble bath, some good wine and a moment to just take a deep breath and let the frustration melt away. It's ok to feel frustration, that's totally human. Just don't let it paralyze you, allow it to build resentment towards Merlin or make you lose hope.
> 
> Humans and dogs are not the same, so please don't let anyone hear me say that when I make this comparison. But perhaps you need to think of this as being a bit similar to someone who has a mental condition that requires the aid of medication and therapy to get them to a stable state. It doesn't make them any less valuable as people. On the flip side being on medication doesn't negate all the gains they make from therapy. It's kind of like a puzzle, therapy alone doesn't address all their needs to get better and neither do the meds. All the pieces need to come into place to create that completed picture for them and their specific needs. Puzzles also take time to build and connect, they don't just instantly complete themselves. It will take Merlin time to get to a complete picture of relaxed happiness. And just like how some people who work hard towards their health with meds and therapy will have great days and bad days so may Merlin. He had a bad day but that doesn't negate the many days of good. Tomorrow is a new day to pick back up on your good note. Think of his training as his therapy, because it really is.
> 
> If it provides any comfort I've heard many people say that some of their most challenging pets were also their greatest blessings. Who knows, maybe Merlin's completed puzzle picture will be the most beautiful picture of a dog you have ever seen. Time and hard work will tell.
> 
> I will say this when I worked at a vet clinic we told clients whose animals were on similar types of drugs that it may take 2 to 3 weeks to take full effect. Here's what makes me a little nervous with Merlin here, these are not the type of medications that you can just keep changing your dosage on. I haven't read the entire thread but have you talked with your vet about what you are doing with the dosage? Normally these types of medications are something that you spend a couple of weeks on a low dose then you build up the dosage slowly to a good level. When it's time to come off of the meds we recommended clients slowly wean their pet off of it (which was supervised by the vet). It's important because you are talking about medications that affect balances in the brain. If you are not being advised by a veterinarian on the dosages that you are giving to Merlin then I think you need to consult a vet asap about a good dosage to start with and do not change that dosage at all for a few weeks. If he is on meds then they need to be consistent and the dosage needs to be firm for awhile. You can actually cause him more problems by being all over the place with an antidepressant. Not saying all hope is lost but doing this may help you out a ton.
> 
> Edit: I just want to add that antidepressants don't work in the sense that you take a morning dosage and by noon you need to get one in or everything is out of your system. A really good comparison is that they work similarly to birth control pills. You aren't suddenly protected because you took one pill and suddenly in a code red alert because you were late taking one. Birth control takes time to build up in your system and leave it because it messes with hormone levels. It's most effective when taken consistently at the same time. And it can really mess you up if you are all over the place with it and not taking consistent dosages. An antidepressant will be similar for pathways for the brain. It's altering levels in the brain, takes time to fully build up in the system and wean off. The worse thing that can happen is to not take it consistently and the same dose consistently. I really feel that if Merlin needs meds, even if it is temporary, that this needs to happen to see them helping him fully.



Excellent explanation and advice!


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## Dechi

To coffee&curls : thanks for the detailed post, I read it carefully. I am working with a vet. Merlin had started his meds about 6-8 weeks ago I would say. The goal is to see a behaviorist who will be monitoring the meds and giving me behavioral strategies, but due to finances, this won't happen before beginning of 2016. So Merlin was on a full dose for about 2 months (1.0 ml twice a day). Since I don't want to medicate him forever if not necessary, and not knowing if it really worked, I thought I would very slowly decrease the dose to see if I noticed any change. And if nothing happened, then I it would mean I can wean him off of it. So I have been decreasing his dose very slowly for about 10 days now, by increment of 0,2 ml every 2-3 days. I started seeing subtle changes a few days after, but so subtle I wasn't sure they were due to the meds being decreased. Now at half dose, it is obvious. This happened yesterday and as I said, he is going back to full dose (either 0,8 or 1,0) until I can see the behaviorist in a few months, and then we'll see. You are right about not playing with the dosage, and I don't intend to. I just had to be convinced I was doing the right thing.

To catsaqqara : unfortunately, Merlin won't take any treats, either from my hand or thrown on the floor. He is too scared. So this limits the type of work you can do. I have to rely 100% on praise when I work with him. I will definitely check your videos, I hadn't seen your post, thanks !


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## coffee&curls

I'm so glad to hear that you are working with your vet on this  I just wanted to make sure, I hope I didn't offend in any way. I think Merlin has really been blessed to have you come into his world. If it were me I'd do .8 for a week then 1.0 next week. Build him back up to it.

It's wonderful that your praise does reach him and is something he is wanting! He sounds so sensitive. I know he isn't very food motivated with his fears but have you tried leaving him treats in the places he is comfortable that he can find? Something that he isn't necessarily earning but rather experiencing. Maybe something that is kinda smelly too. It could be worth a shot, it'd become a food and smell that he'd associate with good things. You might have to experiment with different things. Then maybe over time you could transition into using that food in his training. Though I'm sure your chihuahua might be all over that as well  Your other dog is another blessing in this situation. Dogs can influence each other so much so the behavior and calm of your other dog is something that will impact him and he will observe. 

I hope today is a much better day for both of you! I've been reading up on you and Merlin's journey together. I'm hoping for only the best for both of you in the future.


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## Dechi

Thanks again coffee&curls ! The idea of leaving food around is fantastic, but my Chihuahua is an eating machine and she is so small that even a few bites will affect her weight. She needs to stay slim to be healthy. 

I will try a few special treats again to see if he would be interested. Maybe this part is evolving, I haven't made a lot of attempts at giving treats lately.


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## Tiny Poodles

I do know what you mean about treats, even when she is not scared of anything, and she really wants a treat, Teaka will spend 30 seconds hesitating before she takes a treat. Even Timi, who is the worlds biggest chow hound, when she was having her motorcycle fear period would not take a treat during her moment of fear.


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## coffee&curls

Would you be willing to share what all treats you have tried? I'm sorry if I'm being nosy and you've already shared. There's so many people here that have more knowledge then I do who probably have great treat suggestions if traditional kinds don't work. Maybe Merlin has an affinity to cheese or chicken chunks? Does he have any food allergies? 

Some dogs are just not treat dogs at all so it's very understandable if Merlin isn't. Goodness I wish I wasn't so keen on rewarding myself with treats all the time! Sounds like your chihuahua and I are kindred spirits


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## Dechi

coffee&curls said:


> Would you be willing to share what all treats you have tried? I'm sorry if I'm being nosy and you've already shared. There's so many people here that have more knowledge then I do who probably have great treat suggestions if traditional kinds don't work. Maybe Merlin has an affinity to cheese or chicken chunks? Does he have any food allergies?
> 
> Some dogs are just not treat dogs at all so it's very understandable if Merlin isn't. Goodness I wish I wasn't so keen on rewarding myself with treats all the time! Sounds like your chihuahua and I are kindred spirits


Sure ! I've tried dried chicken (this one he might take once in a while, but it's rare), dried beef, cheese, canned food, about 6 types of dog kibble, dog biscuits, maybe 2 kinds. It has to be something you throw, but when I throw it scares him.


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## catsaqqara

He wont take treats period? Not even when he is sleeping next to you? If that is the case then working on proximity to his food while he eats his meals could help. You can begin by being as far away as he is comfortable with (will eat) and work from there, getting closer at his pace. If he wont eat then you are too close and need to take step back in training.

If he will normally accept treats when nothing is happening but refuses when he is afraid of something then the training begins at a spot where he will accept treats, this could be very far from the frighting thing. And as above, the training goes at his pace, if he refuses to eat then you are moving to fast with training or pushing him too much out of his comfort zone in the beginning. 

And treats are not the only option, the reward should be whatever the dog finds most rewarding. The most rewarding thing for Bambi is a lazer toy.


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## Dechi

catsaqqara said:


> He wont take treats period? Not even when he is sleeping next to you? If that is the case then working on proximity to his food while he eats his meals could help. You can begin by being as far away as he is comfortable with (will eat) and work from there, getting closer at his pace. If he wont eat then you are too close and need to take step back in training.
> 
> If he will normally accept treats when nothing is happening but refuses when he is afraid of something then the training begins at a spot where he will accept treats, this could be very far from the frighting thing. And as above, the training goes at his pace, if he refuses to eat then you are moving to fast with training or pushing him too much out of his comfort zone in the beginning.
> 
> And treats are not the only option, the reward should be whatever the dog finds most rewarding. The most rewarding thing for Bambi is a lazer toy.


He won't eat if I stay in the room. He eats in his crate, door closed, door to the room closed. Sometimes my daughter is in there and studying, but her back is turned. I can't really handfeed him his dinner (done it in the beginning to make him eat) because it's raw and kind of gross...

I can't tell if he'll take treats while lying next to me. Never tried. I will try it.


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## coffee&curls

I just want to reiterate what a wonderful angel you've been to Merlin. It's so obvious that you are giving him your very best and you have my absolute fullest respect. I truly wish there were more owners willing to put in such sincere effort, there'd be a lot less traffic in shelters that's for sure. At the end of the day I hope you are proud of yourself, it says a lot about your character as a person that you are willing to do what is an inconvenience and hardship to you for the pure benefit of another.

If he likes dried chicken he might like chunks of plain, unseasoned chicken breast. I've known people who will keep zip lock baggies of it in their fridge for training their dogs. Maybe something you could try, if you're interested, is freezing little balls of peanut butter. A lot of dogs like peanut butter and if they are in frozen balls then you could roll it to him and see how he reacts. Or another thing you could try is getting him a small kong. You could fill it with things, set it down and see how he reacts (you might need to put up your adorable chihuahua away though lol). If he is leaving it unattended then you can always pick it up and either put it in the fridge or wash it out to keep it away from your other dog. A kong is great for holding all kinds of food!


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## catsaqqara

Have you tried sitting where your daughter sits with your back turned to him, acting like your daughter does when she is in there studying? That would be an excellent place to start the training since Merlin is already used to your daughter being there. After a few meals with you sitting there he would probably be able to handle about 1/2inch or maybe even less of change in your position each meal or each day, working toward facing him. Then you pick another thing to work on like proximity or gaze/eye contact. With his amount of fear (wont even take a treat from you or eat with you around) you are going to have to start very small.

Here is another video that could help if you don't already know about calming signals. 
"How to communicate with a dog in his own language" by Kikopup https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnLgHFRJu4

I was recently offered a fearful black toy poodle and was so excited to begin working with him but there was a communication error between his owners. I took the news really hard. I was even thinking of renaming him Merlin lol (this was before I knew about your Merlin)


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## Dechi

Ha Ha Ha ! What a coincidence catsaqqara... Can you picture two fearful Merlins on the same forum...

I will have to work on the treat part. I think I underestimate the value of treats. I have never really been a big fan of giving food rewards to a dog. I'll rethink my position and see how I can adjust for Merlin's benefit.

My vet called me tonight. She wanted to know how Merlin was adjusting to his med reduction. We talked for a while and she suggested I switch to the pill version, since he sometimes chokes on the liquid. She says it might go down his lungs and we want to avoid that. She can't offer the same low price as the internet, so she'll have a prescription ready for me. I'll pick it up tomorrow and order the Clomicalm online. I still have enough for a good 10-12 days, so it should be fine.

Merlin was better today, with his 0.8 ml dose. Not 100% as he was before I started lowering the dose, but much better. He still hesitated to come through the back door, but as I moved to the side and back, he did. I told him to sit and he did, both times. He cowered but still resisted the urge to run away. I was really happy because it was raining today and the temperature was mild, and there were some earthworms sticking out in the grass. Merlin finds them irresistible, and he made sure to roll in them a lot before coming back in the house ! Thank god he let me dry him with a towel. Mind you he didn't care that he had a nice bath yesterday...


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## Dechi

coffee&curls said:


> I just want to reiterate what a wonderful angel you've been to Merlin. It's so obvious that you are giving him your very best and you have my absolute fullest respect. I truly wish there were more owners willing to put in such sincere effort, there'd be a lot less traffic in shelters that's for sure. At the end of the day I hope you are proud of yourself, it says a lot about your character as a person that you are willing to do what is an inconvenience and hardship to you for the pure benefit of another.
> 
> If he likes dried chicken he might like chunks of plain, unseasoned chicken breast. I've known people who will keep zip lock baggies of it in their fridge for training their dogs. Maybe something you could try, if you're interested, is freezing little balls of peanut butter. A lot of dogs like peanut butter and if they are in frozen balls then you could roll it to him and see how he reacts. Or another thing you could try is getting him a small kong. You could fill it with things, set it down and see how he reacts (you might need to put up your adorable chihuahua away though lol). If he is leaving it unattended then you can always pick it up and either put it in the fridge or wash it out to keep it away from your other dog. A kong is great for holding all kinds of food!


Thank you, I really appreciate your good words, as well as support from this forum in general. I sometimes feel alone and frustrated and having a support system really helps, if not to reassure me, at least to let me know I am not doing too bad. Sometimes I just can't tell anymore, and I keep thinking he would be better off with a professionnal who has done this before.

I just hope I can make him really happy and free, one day.


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## Dechi

Follow-up : we're on a full dose right now and Merlin has been doing better. Still some hesitation when he has to go through the back door, but less and less.

We went to the park today and we met 4 friends : 1 miniature chocolate poodle, 1 poodle-bichon mix, 1 very small yorkie and 1 Shiba Inu. It was a little too much for him, he felt overwhelmed. I gave him a chance to play for about 10 minutes but he kept scratching at my leg. I didn't pick him up. We just kept walking when I saw he wasn't going to play. We met the Shiba Inu a little later and he felt more like playing. I think he prefers one on one play.


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## glorybeecosta

My Cayenne will do anything in the world for chicken. When I want her to really do something I ask you want Chicken, and she goes wild. She likes cookies, but chicken 100% more. They both like roasted chicken better than boiled.


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## fjm

Sophy sailed through the CGC on chicken! She was beginning to get bored with the whole thing, but I took to muttering about there being chicken in my pocket at the start of each exercise and she behaved like a pro, just so long as the chicken appeared as soon as we got back to my seat.


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## aasteapots

You might want to tell the vet. I know my neighbors dog came from a puppy mill she was one of the bitches and she was scared of EVERYTHING the vet put her on Zoloft and it made a world of difference.


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## Dechi

aasteapots said:


> You might want to tell the vet. I know my neighbors dog came from a puppy mill she was one of the bitches and she was scared of EVERYTHING the vet put her on Zoloft and it made a world of difference.



Merlin is on 5mg Clomicalm per day, a Prozac equivalent. It helps but it's far from perfect.

Still having difficulties coming back from outside, and snow is coming fast our way... I don't know what to do, I call him but he doesn't come, so I just wait for him to be ready. Tonight it took about 20-30 miutes before he wanted to come back inside. Maybe he'll be quicker when it starts being really cold !


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## Dechi

The snow turned out not to be a problem, at least so far. He likes it and still rolls in the dirt except now the dirt is covered by snow...

He was still having problems walking through the door when coming back from doing his business, so yesterday I made him do some recalls on the long lead, inside the house and coming and going through the door. After that he was still hesitant, but a lot less and at least he came in after maybe 60 seconds instead of 15-20 minutes...

Today we went to the park. There was a bit of snow left on the ground and he was playful as usual. He played, mostly running, with 2 small dogs we met. Lots of kids going through the park after schoolday was over. Rambunctious high school kids, screaming and play fighting. He was off leash and he was okay, stayed by my side, tail high and happy face.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Dechi said:


> The snow turned out not to be a problem, at least so far. He likes it and still rolls in the dirt except now the dirt is covered by snow...
> 
> He was still having problems walking through the door when coming back from doing his business, so yesterday I made him do some recalls on the long lead, inside the house and coming and going through the door. After that he was still hesitant, but a lot less and at least he came in after maybe 60 seconds instead of 15-20 minutes...
> 
> *Today we went to the park. There was a bit of snow left on the ground and he was playful as usual. He played, mostly running, with 2 small dogs we met. Lots of kids going through the park after schoolday was over. Rambunctious high school kids, screaming and play fighting. He was off leash and he was okay, stayed by my side, tail high and happy face.*


Awesome news!:happy:


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## coffee&curls

I'm so glad that Merlin is having some good days  I hope you have many more happy, confident days in the future!! Also what a relief that the snow wasn't a setback.


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## Dechi

Merlin has been on 1.25 ml for 2-3 days. After talking to the vet we decided to up the dose to 1.5 mg / kg, so he'll be on that when I start the new pills, probably tomorrow (3/4 pill morning and night of clomical 5mg). No more worries about him choking on the liquid soon !


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## MollyMuiMa

AW Merlin! It's so good to hear he is 'approaching normal'..............I love that you can see the light at the end of that long, long, tunnel!!!!


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## Dechi

MollyMuiMa said:


> AW Merlin! It's so good to hear he is 'approaching normal'..............I love that you can see the light at the end of that long, long, tunnel!!!!


Thanks Mully ! Merlin can now be considered a " normal " dog outside. He appears timid, but normal. The problem is inside the house, where he definitely doesn't make a lot of progress. 

I would say he has improved 100% outside and 20% inside. It's been what, 3 months now ? He still doesn't follow me in the house, is scared of every noise, scared of every object, etc. 

I know I need a behaviorist, but I am still not back to work because of my health problems and money is tight. So we have to do the best we can with what we have.


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## fjm

I think three months is still very early days. A behaviourist would certainly help, but you have made so much progress with him already I think you should have more confidence about your own abilities. I have read of dogs who spent the first months in a new home hiding in a crate under the table, but in time learned happier ways.

I think I would consider what is different about his experiences inside/outside, given that he is now so much better when you are out. You have said that he is particularly fearful about coming through doorways when someone is standing there - are his fears due to the dangers of being trapped, or being in too close proximity to people without the option of flight? Outside there is space and a long line, inside there are doorways and corners and nowhere to run? I would try to go at his pace, and to give him as much control over life inside and out as I could, within a regular routine. I know it seems unbearably slow progress to you, but you are unpicking many months of learned fearfulness - plan on it taking just as long to unlearn.


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## Dechi

Thank you fjm. I don't have confidence in my abilities because I have never done this and I have nothing to compare with, so can't tell if we're doing well or not. You're probably right, he needs more time. 

About the difference between inside and outside, I keep racking my brain to find answers but I haven't completely seen the light yet. Someone suggested maybe he is like that outside because there were no acquired behaviors before he came to me. All he's learned from outside was with me, and it was a good experience, so that's what it is (he had never been outside before coming to me, except going to the vet once). That makes sense.

Outside, he walks confident, tail high now. He is happy, he runs, he smells, he is a real dog. Inside, he has the tails between his legs, he keeps looking right, looking left, looking right, looking left, as if someone was hiding with an axe to murder him. He jumps at every little noise and still is very much afraid to come to me, except in specific places. The number of places have increased though, which is good.

I think you might have a point with fear of being trapped, fjm. At the breeders, he was an intact male with 4 intact males probably putting him in his place everytime he was too much in their way. Also, with having a cast for a few months, and being in a house with so many dogs, I can imagine he wasn't handled much except for grooming and other unpleasant stuff. Since he wasn't sold and couldn't be shown, he got no socializing except living in his house, where he stay in his crate most of the time I suppose (door open).

I think I need to let go of trying to understand and stop wanting progress so much. And accept regression too. Things will come with time. It's hard to do, because I am human and I get frustrated when things go backwards instead of forward. 

This is one of the hardest things I've had to do in my life, as simple as it seems.


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## Mfmst

I don't think this is a simple problem at all and you have done a splendid job! It is so heartwarming to read that Merlin is enjoying his outings, just as he should. He's even making progress inside! This is wonderful news! Poor little guy. You are having to compensate for a lot of bad experiences he had at the breeder's and you are. Hugs from Houston!


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## glorybeecosta

Bella and Jasmine I got from a back yard breeder in Charleston W VA and they were both like that. I found a home for Jasmine and kept Bella. I had 4 toy poodles at that time just to much. I only planned on getting one, but the other was in such bad shape, I had to take her. It took her a year to start acting normal, she still is shy, but comes to me immediately and when walking stays right by my right leg. She is a wonderful dog. She is so good that every morning, afternoon and evening she gets drops in her eyes (dry eyes) she actually comes to me to have them put in. She is amazing frm wht she was when I got her, and really quite normal now, I have had her 6.5 years. Since I got Cayenne she actually runs and plays I am amazed at her.


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## Dechi

This is music to my ears, thank you ! I hope we get to that point !


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## glorybeecosta

Either dog was ever socialized, so Bella went with me everywhere, I also had Shotsie which I think helped although Shotsie had nothing to do with Bella just ignored her. I entertained a lot, so people was coming and going, and they would pick her up and hold her, (actually I had to pick her up and give her to them) she would not let anyone pick her up, she just would go to them and then run in circles when they would reach for her. I think having others hold her made he realize she was safe.
At 15 months she was not house broken so that says what attention she got. Food is not something that could use with her, treats were not enticing. She is most likely to attached to me, as she will not go for a walk with anyone unless I am going to. But it could be a lot worse so I am happy


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## coffee&curls

I'm sorry if you already shared this but do you know why Merlin was in a cast at his breeders? 

I think you are doing wonderful with him, especially since it's only been 3 months! He has made a lot of progress in that short amount of time. I think if you are ok with good days and bad and just enjoying the journey like you said then you're going to be just fine. I say keep doing what you're doing, when you get money for a behaviorist then if you want go for it but you are doing great. I can't wait to see Merlin continue to grow into a confident dog.


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## Dechi

Glorybeecosta, your baby sounds a lot like Merlin. I don't entertain as much but he sees other people too, and sometimes goes to them, but will run away too. He is fixated on me, just like your girl. 

Coffee&curls, the breeder told me that the day before Merlin was going to his new home, he got scared by a toddler while in his dog pen, tried to jump over it amd his right paw got caught in the plastic mesh but he fell on the other side; his paw remained caught so it broke. The breeder then kept him and had him operated on.


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## glorybeecosta

Dechi I do not find that attachment to bad I know I am adored by someone or something,LOL. Cayenne is the same way, but she was not mistreated and came form a vet that breeds. Cayenne is not really a timid dog as Bella is, in fact she is quite bold, to the point her prey drive could get her in trouble. I like Bella's behavior better

I really think your baby will come around, but it will take awhile. Jasmine the one I found a home for also came around in about a year, she was attached to the husband. How long have you had your baby now?


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## Dechi

It's been 3 months. I am so glad to hear your other dog turned out fine as well, that is so reassuring to me !

I know lots of people say it takes a year, but since the progress is so slow, and sometimes he regresses, I was starting to think Merlin was the exception to the norm...


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## coffee&curls

Poor little guy, that must have been awful  I know accidents happen though. I'm glad he is with you now, a house with small kids chasing him is probably not what he needs with his issues. I still say you are his angel :angel2:


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## lily cd re

Dechi I have found with rehomed dogs that I have trained that it takes 4-6 months before they begin to show their true selves and that they often surprise you as long as 12 months after getting to their new home. I think it takes that long for them to believe that they aren't going someplace else.

Patience dear, Merlin is lucky to have been found by you.


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## glorybeecosta

lily cd Mine all took 9 months to 12 to adjust, I totally agree


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## Dechi

lily cd re said:


> Dechi I have found with rehomed dogs that I have trained that it takes 4-6 months before they begin to show their true selves and that they often surprise you as long as 12 months after getting to their new home. I think it takes that long for them to believe that they aren't going someplace else.
> 
> Patience dear, Merlin is lucky to have been found by you.


Great, thanks ! Can't wait to see where we are at six and twelve months !


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## Beaches

Poor wee fellow had 17 months of neglect/abuse. You and he are doing so well, it's just hard for him to trust..


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## fjm

I think you should keep some sort of diary. That way, when things feel discouragingly slow to improve, you can look back a few months and see how much better he is now than then. It can also help to spot patterns - it took me a while to realise that Sophy's occasional poor appetite in the mornings was phantom morning sickness following her heat, and I probably would not have put them together if I didn't jot down brief details on my online calendar.


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## lily cd re

fjm keeping a journal is a splendid idea. Not only will it help Dechi see Merlin's progress, but as you say can provide insights about bad triggers and good techniques!


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## Dechi

fjm said:


> I think you should keep some sort of diary. That way, when things feel discouragingly slow to improve, you can look back a few months and see how much better he is now than then. It can also help to spot patterns - it took me a while to realise that Sophy's occasional poor appetite in the mornings was phantom morning sickness following her heat, and I probably would not have put them together if I didn't jot down brief details on my online calendar.


It is a great idea, and this thread is just that... I often come back here and read from the start. I use it to guide me through our next steps !


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## Dechi

Merlin has been on 1,5mg / kg of Clomicalm, at the vet's r commendation, for about 5 days now. No side effects, so I will be ready to order online. Improvements have been small, but I I'll take what I can get. I have started getting him out of his comfort zone more. When I have to work in the kitchen, now, I tie his leash to the patio door, to get him used to laying on the carpet he goes onto when he comes back from outside. This is the patio door he is afraid of. He comes back from outside a little better now, but still crouched down and looking left and right (the day he stops doing that, I will do something crazy and wild, I swear...).

I also make him go in and out of this door, and make him sit while I close and open the door and play with the latch.

I've also started having noisy objects with me on the couch and have been making noise while he's on my lap, to get him used to it. Not much progress, bt it's only been about 3-4 days.

We went outside for a walk tonight, and he was much better, although his tail was low. He was scared of people in a stopped car and a " tempo garage retractable roof " (don't know what you call it). Also scared of my winter coat, because it makes noise when I move my arms agains my side. I made sure I moved them a lot.

Ah, also I started giving him the clomical in pills, instead of liquid. I put it in a tiny bit of rawfood. At first he was scared of it but now he's starting to come towards me to get it. That's a good step.


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## MollyMuiMa

You are sooooo patient! Just shows what a caring, compassionate person you are!


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## lily cd re

I think it can take time for these types of meds to really reach their therapeutic levels in the blood and brain. I also think that it is important to give the doses at very consistent times. Keep up the good work.


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## Dechi

lily cd re said:


> I think it can take time for these types of meds to really reach their therapeutic levels in the blood and brain. I also think that it is important to give the doses at very consistent times. Keep up the good work.


I agree. So far he gets it at 0900 am and 0900 pm. He's been on this med for about 45 days now, although I played with the dosage a bit about 15 days ago.


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## lily cd re

Dechi said:


> I agree. So far he gets it at 0900 am and 0900 pm. He's been on this med for about 45 days now, although I played with the dosage a bit about 15 days ago.



I remember that you did that, so I think you should consider yourself in a reset window right now.


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## Dechi

It is going well with the new dose of clomicalm. I have been giving him 1,5 mg per kg, or 3/4 pill morning and night, for about 8-10 days now.

Today I have to mark the date on the calendar : after almost 3 months with us, Merlin came to greet me at the door when I came in for the first time ! He was wagging his tail and coming to me, sitting by my leg to get petted. He did it at least 4 times, coming and going. He even had to pass by two shopping bags to get to me and he didn't mind.

Wow, that is something else ! I was so happy and he got lots of kisses on his freshly shaved face !


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## fjm

That is lovely news - and such helpful information for others who may be worried about using these drugs. It shows just how much they can improve a dog's life, when used appropriately.


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## Dechi

fjm said:


> That is lovely news - and such helpful information for others who may be worried about using these drugs. It shows just how much they can improve a dog's life, when used appropriately.


You're right. The important thing to know is you have to use the drugs in conjunction with behavior modification. Just giving the drugs to the dog won't do much. It works as a tool for learning new ways of being. 

Working with a behaviorist is important also. It is something I haven't had the possibility to do yet, but it's on my important things to do list. Meanwhile, I read as much as I can and I try to be creative and come up with different exercises. Just leaving the dog be and do what he wants would slow the adaptation process a lot. You have to bring him out of his comfort zone as much as possible, and as much as he can tolerate, and increase along with tolerance to triggers.

Last thing is expose the dog to as many different situations and environments as possible, and also noises and objects.

That is what I have learned so far. Oh, and patience. And sometimes to take a break from the dog when it becomes overwhelming or frustrating. These anxious dogs are emotion sponges, they can feel the tiniest hint of exasperation and will react by being even more fearful !


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## coffee&curls

Dechi said:


> It is going well with the new dose of clomicalm. I have been giving him 1,5 mg per kg, or 3/4 pill morning and night, for about 8-10 days now.
> 
> Today I have to mark the date on the calendar : after almost 3 months with us, Merlin came to greet me at the door when I came in for the first time ! He was wagging his tail and coming to me, sitting by my leg to get petted. He did it at least 4 times, coming and going. He even had to pass by two shopping bags to get to me and he didn't mind.
> 
> Wow, that is something else ! I was so happy and he got lots of kisses on his freshly shaved face !


This update brought tears to my eyes. Hearing that he is giving you these moments of his true self and his love shows how much you've done for him and how far he's come.


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## Dechi

Another breakthrough tonight ! I had read that 3 months was a milestone, and it seems right... When I came home my daughter told me Merlin played with the Christmas tree, making something fall off. Also he played with the newspaper under my parrot's cage ! Probably just two seconds each time, but still, it means he is starting to feel more at ease !

Also, for the first time, he told me that he wanted something. It was about time the dogs were fed, so he asked to go off my lap, looked at me, wagging his tail as if saying " hey, it's time to feed me ", went up to the kitchen and stayed there a bit while I was preparing their meal.

Theses are little things that usually noone pays attention to, but when you have a dog like Merlin, it's almost as big as when a kid starts reading his first word !


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Another breakthrough tonight ! I had read that 3 months was a milestone, and it seems right... When I came home my daughter told me Merlin played with the Christmas tree, making something fall off. Also he played with the newspaper under my parrot's cage ! Probably just two seconds each time, but still, it means he is starting to feel more at ease !
> 
> Also, for the first time, he told me that he wanted something. It was about time the dogs were fed, so he asked to go off my lap, looked at me, wagging his tail as if saying " hey, it's time to feed me ", went up to the kitchen and stayed there a bit while I was preparing their meal.
> 
> Theses are little things that usually noone pays attention to, but when you have a dog like Merlin, it's almost as big as when a kid starts reading his first word !



That is wonderful! 
You know you reminded me of when Tangee was young - I got her at 16 weeks, from a good breeder, but oh my, she acted like she thought I was going to eat her if I picked her up. Those little signs that you are getting through to them mean so much - and they really do add up. I actually had forgotten that she had started out that way because she turned out so differently!
Can I ask - since they had/have the same coloring, does Merlin have any Dylor in his lines? Just wondering if there is a genetic component?


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## MollyMuiMa

Oh how it pleases me to hear of every little 'baby step' that goes forward into making Merlin more like the happy little dog he deserves to be!! You are doing a wonderful job .....soooo patient and loving!!!


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> That is wonderful!
> You know you reminded me of when Tangee was young - I got her at 16 weeks, from a good breeder, but oh my, she acted like she thought I was going to eat her if I picked her up. Those little signs that you are getting through to them mean so much - and they really do add up. I actually had forgotten that she had started out that way because she turned out so differently!
> Can I ask - since they had/have the same coloring, does Merlin have any Dylor in his lines? Just wondering if there is a genetic component?


I know his father is a sherfame but I don't know about Dylor. I will check and come back to you.

Thanks everyone for your encouragement, it means a lot !


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## lily cd re

Aww baby steps are just as good as giant leaps and bounds. It sounds like Merlin is getting ready to give you a lovely Christmas and great things in 2016!


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## glorybeecosta

Dechi, as I mentioned Bella was skiddish when I got her, now she is like glue. There are sometimes that I need space, but I do not get it with these 2. Cayenne was not skiddish, but cannot get out of her sight.


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## Dechi

We had another first, today. We went for a short walk, it was colder that I thought and I had nothing on my head so I was cold. I let Merlin go off leash in our usual safe spot and he was dragging behind. After a good 30 seconds, if not more, he finally came back to me, running, and he had something in his mouth. I have no idea what it was, but it looked disgusting and he wouldn't let me near him to take it away... A real teenager ! 

Also, he's starting to eat from my hand in a few different places in the house, when I give him his meds. He's looking forward to it now. I can't do it more because I am using his raw food and frankly, it is disgusting to touch ! Twice a day for the meds is enough...

He's also now coming in the kitchen, tail wagging and excited, when I prepare their meal.

Coming through the door is still difficult but it's a bit faster now, and he systematically sits on the carpet until I say " okay ". I have to bend down still, if I am standin gup he won't enter.

Things are going well, it's encouraging !


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## fjm

It does sound as if you may have reached the tipping point. I am sure there will be set backs, and he may always be prone to regression when he is tired, or ill, or simply overwhelmed, but little by little his true personality is shining through!


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## lily cd re

I am happy to have seen this update. It all sounds like steps in the right direction. I know you had been hoping to wean him off meds, but I think you should stick with the current strategy. It is paying real dividends now.


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## Dechi

lily cd re said:


> I am happy to have seen this update. It all sounds like steps in the right direction. I know you had been hoping to wean him off meds, but I think you should stick with the current strategy. It is paying real dividends now.


I tested going off and it was a big fail, so now I am convinced he needs them. So we're staying on meds for as long as it takes.


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## Shamrockmommy

Yay Merlin! You are doing so awesome with him!


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## lily cd re

Dechi I remember when you tapered down and understood why you tried, but I think you really are on the right course now.


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## Streetcar

These are joyful updates, Dechi . Your steadfast love and care are helping Merlin peel back the layers to his true self. What a precious gift you are giving him.


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## glorybeecosta

Dechi in another 3 month I bet you will be amazed of the difference Merlin, Bella is so different, she will go to people in the house takes awhile for her to let them pick your, as for me she is glue. She pays more than Cayenne, since she put Cayenne in her place a few times. Will actually play with her toys by herself. When I got her she was afraid of toys. and was bent over in a crawl position, not now at all. Insists on being picked up whether I want to or not.


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## Dechi

I hope he follows Bella's path, Glorybeecosta !


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## Dechi

We came back from my parents's yesterday, after a 6 days stay. It took about 3 days for Merlin to adapt to the new bathroom conditions and stop doing no 2 on the floor. It would have been faster if I had been more careful, but I was on vacation and slacked off. 

He went to my mom a few times, putting his paws near her knees, as if to be picked up. I had told my parents not to try to pick him up or pet him, so they didn't pay attention to him other than talking to him. He seemed to like my mom. Once he even cuddled with my son, whom he doesn't see very much, so I was happy about that.

When I was getting ready to leave and started packing the stuff in the car, my Chi as usual understood that We were going home and stayed close to me so to not be left behind. To my amazement, Merlin got it too. Instead of running away when I call him, like he usually does, he came to me on his own, pressing his body against my leg and crouching to be picked up. 

I was so proud of him then ! My dad, who is not into dogs much, even said " I have a feeling you're going to love this dog, he is very intelligent ! ". To which I replied " I already love him very much, dad ! "

When we got back, he had to readapt to the potty routine at home. His potty area in the back yard has been reduced to only a 6x6 square, due to having had more than 1 foot of snow while we were gone. He did a no 2 on the kitchen floor the first day. Now I am watching him like a hawk and " forcing " him to go in his little square he doesn't like. He did it yesterday, so I hope it continues.

Also, since we came back, he is a whole lot better with coming through the back door. He was good at my parents, so I guess it helped. The frame of the door was brown instead of white, so maybe that's why. But hey, I am just enjoying this relied from the back door drama !


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## Mfmst

Good news!!! Doing a happy dance in Houston that Merlin is doing SO much better.


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## Dechi

Mfmst said:


> Good news!!! Doing a happy dance in Houston that Merlin is doing SO much better.


Thanks, I can even see you in my head LOL !


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## Carolinek

So happy to hear! He is learning the new things are not always big and scary- great way to start the new year!


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## lily cd re

It sounds like being at your parents, although offering some challenges, also gave Merlin an important opportunity to start to generalize the behaviors you've been working on. That is a great step for him and you.


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## Dechi

Update on his progress : the housebreaking problem is under control. i have kept his poo path shovelled and he enjoys going outside to do his busines. We haven't had one accident in the house for about 3-4 weeks now. I have ordered some belly bands for when he stays home without me. He takes off the one he has now.

As far as his general behavior in the house, it hasn't improved much. He still flees if I approach him when he's lying in his doggy bed, still always goes around the table when in the kitchen, to avoid being approached, has difficulty coming to get a treat and will generally go hide in his bed as soon as something is changed in his routine, a sudden noise, a new person, etc. He still has trouble coming through the door, you need to use a happy high pitched voice or he stays outside, even in freezing temperatures...

On the good side, he comes when called most of the time, even if by groveling. He started playing everyday (see video), he will eat any kibble or treat you give him (before he would hardly eat anything), he is happy to go to bed at night, he runs and jumps for that, he will go to my son and my daughter to be picked up and he doesn't step on Tamara anymore, at least not in the last month !

He still loves going outside for walks, although we haven't done it much, too cold lately. His recall is very good outside, and he follows me off-leash like a champ.
Yesterday he even played with me, a really good play (without toys, he's too afraid still). He was coming to me while I was sitting on the floor, jumping and pawing at me, doing the bow and zooming like crazy in the kitchen before coming to me for more. I laughed so hard and it gave him wings...

I have switched his medication to once a day, at night, instead of twice a day, morning and night. Same dosage, but given all at once. He seems to be doing better with that (started to play with me). He just looks more alert and playful.

Here's a video of him playing a bit. He stopped after I started filming but it gives an idea of how he is now.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> Update on his progress : the housebreaking problem is under control. i have kept his poo path shovelled and he enjoys going outside to do his busines. We haven't had one accident in the house for about 3-4 weeks now. I have ordered some belly bands for when he stays home without me. He takes off the one he has now.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as his general behavior in the house, it hasn't improved much. He still flees if I approach him when he's lying in his doggy bed, still always goes around the table when in the kitchen, to avoid being approached, has difficulty coming to get a treat and will generally go hide in his bed as soon as something is changed in his routine, a sudden noise, a new person, etc. He still has trouble coming through the door, you need to use a happy high pitched voice or he stays outside, even in freezing temperatures...
> 
> 
> 
> On the good side, he comes when called most of the time, even if by groveling. He started playing everyday (see video), he will eat any kibble or treat you give him (before he would hardly eat anything), he is happy to go to bed at night, he runs and jumps for that, he will go to my son and my daughter to be picked up and he doesn't step on Tamara anymore, at least not in the last month !
> 
> 
> 
> He still loves going outside for walks, although we haven't done it much, too cold lately. His recall is very good outside, and he follows me off-leash like a champ.
> 
> Yesterday he even played with me, a really good play (without toys, he's too afraid still). He was coming to me while I was sitting on the floor, jumping and pawing at me, doing the bow and zooming like crazy in the kitchen before coming to me for more. I laughed so hard and it gave him wings...
> 
> 
> 
> I have switched his medication to once a day, at night, instead of twice a day, morning and night. Same dosage, but given all at once. He seems to be doing better with that (started to play with me). He just looks more alert and playful.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a video of him playing a bit. He stopped after I started filming but it gives an idea of how he is now.



It sounds like you have made great progress! Some little quirks such as the groveling when he comes may never change, but it sounds like you have made great strides on the bigger issues.


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## Streetcar

Such great progress! Merlin is the sweetest boy. I'm so proud of you both!


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## lily cd re

I am glad to see some good news updates here!

I wonder though whether switching the medication to once a day is really going to be better. Have you asked the vet? I have known some people who took anti-anxiety and other similar medications and the best effect was if they took their doses precisely spread around the clock. For example one person (someone close to me) was prescribed a medication that was to be taken three times a day. The person was taking it evenly spaced over the waking day and then was a wreck again every morning. After switching to taking it exactly every eight hours things improved very rapidly.


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## Shamrockmommy

You are making great progress with him! What a cutie


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## glorybeecosta

That sounds great


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## Countryboy

I'm pleased... but not surprised. With a fearful dog, time is the best remedy. The longer they stay in a calm environment, the more relaxed they get. 

Good for you!


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## Caddy

You have done wonders with Merlin, it's so good to watch him play and be happy.


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## Dechi

lily cd re said:


> I am glad to see some good news updates here!
> 
> I wonder though whether switching the medication to once a day is really going to be better. Have you asked the vet? I have known some people who took anti-anxiety and other similar medications and the best effect was if they took their doses precisely spread around the clock. For example one person (someone close to me) was prescribed a medication that was to be taken three times a day. The person was taking it evenly spaced over the waking day and then was a wreck again every morning. After switching to taking it exactly every eight hours things improved very rapidly.


I Haven't but I researched online on the subject before trying it. So far so good, he is not any worse than before, I would even say he is better. His dose is at 9pm, so if he was to worsen, I would see it all through the day, which I don't. He is very happy when getting up in the morning and playful in the afternoon.

I am still hoping to cut him off medication. I am in no rush, but that's my goal. I wouldn't want to take medication my whole life if I could avoid it, and I want the same for him.


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## Beaches

That video is amazing Dechi. Is that the same dog? He looks happy and playful! So glad you toughed it out. The change is truly incredible, you have done wonders for Merlin.


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## patk

things are looking good. congratulations to you both.


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## Dechi

Update. Merlin has been off meds for about 4-5 weeks now. He is better than ever and improving every week. His true personality is coming through. He is very active and mischievous.

This week we had two firsts : one day I forgot to throw away the paper bag and styrofoam container that had the remains of my poutine (barely any sauce). I came back and just like a puppy, he had tore open the bag and destroyed the styrofoam container to lick the sauce. The container was in 100 small pieces... My fault, I forgot to pick it up before I went. I forgot dogs do that, Tamara would have never done it !

Today is a big first. He played with me for the first time ! It almost took 1 whole year, I can't believe it ! I was dragging around his toy and he was chasing it and " killing " it. He was like a mad dog, running as fast as he could from his doggy bed to me, and back and forth. I was laughing so hard, he was hilarious.

Besides that he is generally more comfortable. For example he will now lay down on the patio and relax. Never did that before. And he doesn't run down the stairs every time I move an arm or a leg on my reclining sun bathing chair.

He is starting to behave better at the park. He has a phase where he would wander too far away, we've been working on that and it's getting better. He is learning to pay more attention to me and what I want from him.

Now he sits so fast when I ask, it's almost funny. I have learned that by giving him commands, like stay or sit, it gives him a sense of comfort and he does better. So I use it a lot now.

I would think there is a chance that by the end of year 2, next summer, he will have become pretty close to being a " normal " dog.

So for anyone who gets a very fearful, anxious dog, don't despair, it gets a whole lot better !

The only area where we are having problems now is the bed wetting at night, in his crate. I made the mistake of not respecting his routine once (I got home adter his bedtime and wanted to give him a cuddle, somI took him out of his crate and let him back in after 2-3 minutes). This set him off, he was confused and peed in his crate.

Next day I had to change and wash his usual bed lining, so I put a thick towel in instead. That was a change also, and he peed on it too. Then, my fault, I had a bad night and slept in way later than usual. I suppose he peed in the morning. So 3 accidents in 1 week, all my fault.

So now his usual bed lining is in the crate and I try not to sleep in... Back to square one ! (He is wearing a boy diaper but it doesn't stop the mess, it just drips differently).


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## Countryboy

Dechi said:


> Now he sits so fast when I ask, it's almost funny. I have learned that by giving him commands, like stay or sit, it gives him a sense of comfort and he does better. So I use it a lot now.


I always thought that some dogs took a certain pride in 'learning', and co-operating with their human. I could almost read it in Spuddie's face. 

Or maybe too much anthropomorphizing. lol


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## Poodlebeguiled

What wonderful progress he's made. You have done such a great job with him. I think this potty thing will level out too, as time goes on. It sounds like he's enjoying the new things he is learning and realizing with each success that there's more out there for him. I bet it will start snow balling from here. Way to go! Great news!


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## MollyMuiMa

Great news! You sure have made great progress cuz he sounds pretty 'normal'.....with just a few little quirks! LOL!


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## patk

you are really bringing him into a good life. great to see.


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## lily cd re

What fabulous changes you and he have made! I am thrilled for both of you. I do think dogs need orderliness in their lives as you've noted. Some of the dogs I've worked with really changed dramatically for the better once they trusted that their lives had structure and that their people cared to help them by giving clear directions.


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## Dechi

Funny you're talking about order ans structure, Lily. 

Merlin just has to go to bed at the same time every night. Tonight I was trying to watch tv past 9, his bedtime, and he just wouldn't have it. I made him stay up a bit late (20 minutes), I hope he won't pee in his crate because of it...

We'll know more tomorrow !


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## Streetcar

You have done and are doing brilliantly, dear Dechi . And thanks to you, so is Merlin!!!!


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## Muggles

What a great update Dechi. I'm so glad you and Merlin have each other - and what an achievement to have reached this point and have stopped his medications!


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## Carolinek

What a wonderful update! So glad to hear he's doing well- you've done amazing work with him. 

I think you'll continue to see his personality emerge. I didn't see Lily's true personality until we had her two years- some dogs take a little longer to let their guard down. Worth the wait!


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## Dechi

Dechi said:


> Funny you're talking about order ans structure, Lily.
> 
> Merlin just has to go to bed at the same time every night. Tonight I was trying to watch tv past 9, his bedtime, and he just wouldn't have it. I made him stay up a bit late (20 minutes), I hope he won't pee in his crate because of it...
> 
> We'll know more tomorrow !



For the record, I know I won't remember, he didn't pee in his crate that night !


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## glorybeecosta

Dechi said:


> Funny you're talking about order ans structure, Lily.
> 
> Merlin just has to go to bed at the same time every night. Tonight I was trying to watch tv past 9, his bedtime, and he just wouldn't have it. I made him stay up a bit late (20 minutes), I hope he won't pee in his crate because of it...
> 
> We'll know more tomorrow !


My 2 girls, want me to leave the home office at 9:30 to go play, and at 11 they want to go to bed, and will go around the sofa toward the bedroom and whine for me to come. They do not like a disrupted schedule. No matter what time I go to bed, they never get me up and Sage is now the same


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## seminolewind

Dechi,, for a male dog have you tried a belly band?


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## Mfmst

I had three pages to catch up on Merlin's progress! Congratulations to both of you! Wonderful news!


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## Dechi

seminolewind said:


> Dechi,, for a male dog have you tried a belly band?


Yes, he wears them. But he still pees, and it accumulates in the band, then drips from one side onto the crate. They keep urine from being spread all over above ground, but it's still there.


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