# Why are bad browns "bad"?



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I hear tell that there is such a thing as a _bad_ brown. :gossip: Is that the same as a faded brown? What makes bad brown bad? LOL. Who makes up this stuff anyway? Does anyone have any pictures of examples of the following to post here?

Bad brown

Faded brown (if it is different than bad brown) 

café au lait

silver beige


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

cbrand has a beautiful Cafe' au Lait girl. I hope she will post a photo of Delilah for you to see. I fell in love with her last year when I first stumbled onto her website. I want a puppy that grows up to be that color...


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Here's Hibbert. From everything I've been told, he is fading to a cafe au lait. He has a pretty even coloring all over.









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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, I know Delilah. She's beautiful. Hebert is a gorgeous color too. I thought café au lait might be more tannish since that's what my coffee looks like in the morning. So, this does not seem to be so tan, more darkish undertones.

When you post pictures, can you tell me what color the parents were? I know if there's a black, there would be a brown gene in there, right? This is so interesting, but I am still learning. It's complicated at first.

I have that cool website about Poodle colors on my front page so I can look at it periodically. It was posted somewhere here and I snatched it up. POODLE COAT COLORS: BROWN & CAFE AU LAIT

Well, thanks guys. I love not only seeing the beautiful pictures in the subforum for pictures of different colors, but also how your experiences are...the details. lol.

Darn, I must be gone most all day today to a seminar so won't be able to check in till later. I sure appreciate your participation. I think it could be a learning experience and fun. Thanks for your responses!


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Hibbert is only 15 months old, so he still has a lot of fading to do to get to a coffee color. His dad was brown and mom was apricot.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

My Charlie Brown, a toy, was the most beautiful brown. The sire was black and the dam was brown, so Charlie held his color his entire life. Really stayed dark and hershey chocolate.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mil. I call her faded brown or Cafe, depends on my mood. 

Cafe is the equivalent of a blue, but in brown. Silver beige is the equivalent of silver, but in brown. A silver beige requires silver in the pedigree, it is not simply a silvered out brown.

ETA: Added a puppy picture.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Mil. I call her faded brown or Cafe, depends on my mood.
> 
> Cafe is the equivalent of a blue, but in brown. Silver beige is the equivalent of silver, but in brown. A silver beige requires silver in the pedigree, it is not simply a silvered out brown.
> 
> ETA: Added a puppy picture.


I call her beautiful! I love the color.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Mil. I call her faded brown or Cafe, depends on my mood.
> 
> Cafe is the equivalent of a blue, but in brown. Silver beige is the equivalent of silver, but in brown. A silver beige requires silver in the pedigree, it is not simply a silvered out brown.
> 
> ETA: Added a puppy picture.


Gorgeous!!!!!!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

I was under the impression that two blues or cafe au lait could produce silvers or silver beiges. If that is true then silver may not show up on a pedigree just black, blue, brown, or cafe au lait.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Wow! I obviously haven't seen recent Millie pictures because she is WAY lighter than I remember. She's a beauty!



In regards to the actualy question, I find "bad browns" to be just as gorgeous as all the other brown variations. The odd white/faded hair seems to blend well and give a really nice tone to the coat. Now, a "bad black" like Matrix, I don't find as attractive as a "good black" but who cares!!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thanks...What I was wondering was, what makes a bad brown bad. So, Locket, it's stray white hairs here and there? Or an uneven look? Is it a completely different shade from café? I am quite sure the brown must vary quite a bit. I love Millie and Delilaha. Gorgeous color.

Well, one of the puppies in the litter I'm looking at is brown....right now, a deep, dark, rich mahogany. (beautiful) The breeder, when I asked (because I didn't look when I was there) said he didn't see any white hairs in the bottom of his feet between the toes. (that's an indication of turning light sooner) However, he said it's still early. (they're about 5 1/2 weeks) The dam is a white and the sire black. He said the sire has produced brown, white and black, so there are those genes and maybe more. He said, when I was at his house, that this pup might turn to café au lait or I thought I heard, but it was under his breath, "or silver beige." Well, I don't see how it could make silver beige, but I'm still trying to figure this out. So, who knows? I'm just so curious what this little brown puppy will look like. lol. Fascinating to me. In fact, I've been reading a lot about the genetics of color, but haven't gotten it all straight yet in my mind. I forget what I read and have to go back. lol. 

I actually get to be involved in picking a puppy since I live so close and I'm first in line to choose after he choses one. I'd be inclined to get the brown, but I need to wait and see what the temperament _seems_ to be in all the pups and ask him what he has noticed in relation to what I'm looking for in a pup. So, I might wind up with a black or maybe the white. It's awfully hard to tell at this age and one visit here and another there...I'll depend on the breeder to tell me what he's observed over the whole time he's had the babies. So far, he's just said his dogs have mah-vel-ous temperaments. There may not be one that is significantly different from another.

Well, thanks everybody. I was just trying to get a feel for what characteristics make a "bad" brown. My opinion would be just an ugly shade. lol...washed out without that taupe sort of color. It's hard to describe, isn't it. Maybe pictures would help.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Ellyisme said:


> Here's Hibbert. From everything I've been told, he is fading to a cafe au lait. He has a pretty even coloring all over.
> View attachment 64666
> 
> 
> ...


Hibbert. In my other post I completely butchered the spelling of his name. Sorry 'bout that. Hibbert. Cute. And he is a gorgeous dog. I like that color a lot!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Thanks...What I was wondering was, what makes a bad brown bad. So, Locket, it's stray white hairs here and there? Or an uneven look? Is it a completely different shade from café? I am quite sure the brown must vary quite a bit. I love Millie and Delilaha. Gorgeous color.
> 
> Well, one of the puppies in the litter I'm looking at is brown....right now, a deep, dark, rich mahogany. (beautiful) The breeder, when I asked (because I didn't look when I was there) said he didn't see any white hairs in the bottom of his feet between the toes. (that's an indication of turning light sooner) However, he said it's still early. (they're about 5 1/2 weeks) The dam is a white and the sire black. He said the sire has produced brown, white and black, so there are those genes and maybe more. He said, when I was at his house, that this pup might turn to café au lait or I thought I heard, but it was under his breath, "or silver beige." Well, I don't see how it could make silver beige, but I'm still trying to figure this out. So, who knows? I'm just so curious what this little brown puppy will look like. lol. Fascinating to me. In fact, I've been reading a lot about the genetics of color, but haven't gotten it all straight yet in my mind. I forget what I read and have to go back. lol.
> 
> ...


If he said silver beige, then probably somewhere in his pedigree is silver (probably on the Dam's side), so keep in mind that the blacks could wind up being blue - but I am glad that you consider temperament to be the most important thing, and think it's awesome that you get to choose for yourself!
Do you only want a boy, or are you open to girls too?
What age do you get to bring them home?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Hibbert is gorgeous - love his color!


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Hibbert. In my other post I completely butchered the spelling of his name. Sorry 'bout that. Hibbert. Cute. And he is a gorgeous dog. I like that color a lot!


That's ok!  As long as "Bert" is somewhere in there, he'll respond to it.


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Hibbert is gorgeous - love his color!


Thanks!


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

I love how dramatic the change was in Mille's coat! Hibbert's colour, and himself, are just plain beautiful.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> If he said silver beige, then probably somewhere in his pedigree is silver (probably on the Dam's side), so keep in mind that the blacks could wind up being blue - but I am glad that you consider temperament to be the most important thing, and think it's awesome that you get to choose for yourself!
> Do you only want a boy, or are you open to girls too?
> What age do you get to bring them home?


I've had many dogs all my life and I have come to the conclusion that I prefer the males. I _loved_ them all the same, but there's something about the boys that has been pretty consistent that I particularly like. They are not prone to mood swings (they don't call us bitches for nothing) and they are very in-your-face affectionate, very steady and I need to be needed. And they _really_ need you. My girls have always been so sweet and affectionate too. My girl Chi is just the epitome of sweet. But it's still not quite the same as my little Boo boo, Jose`. She still has that little independent streak that shows up periodically, on her own terms kind of thing. Jose`'s a mama's boy in the biggest sense of the word. lol. And Lyric, my Doberman was just a big slob. As one breeder said about Dobermans...."Dogs drool and bitches rule." lol

He has two litters, one from the black dad and white mom and that one is the first one I was looking at. There are two blacks, one white, one brown...all boys.

The second litter, 5 days older consists of just two black boys. One, he thinks might have some brown, as in it might turn phantom. That one, both parents are black, but I don't know what other color genes are in them, as I'm primarily interested in the other litter. Yes indeed, some might turn blue because of the brown genes. The sire has produced white, black and brown. Mix that with the white bitch and the sky's the limit. LOL. 

He said I could take a puppy at 8 weeks as long as it's doing well. I asked, "Don't you think if I leave it until 10 weeks, he'd learn even more from his litter mates and Mom?" And he said, "nah..." In other words, he felt that by 8 weeks, they've pretty much got it. (maybe he's just had enough with puppies. lol) And if it is at 8 weeks, that gives me more time to socialize the pup, although I will have to be very careful just how because he won't have his second shot yet....I think that's about 14 weeks. 

But my belief is that if you wait to do anything in the way of meeting people and going places until 14 -16 weeks, you've pretty much missed that window that is the critical, early socialization period. But I won't take the pup to places where a lot of other dogs have been unless it's carried or in a cart of some sort. I will invite the neighbor kids over to see the pup and supervise carefully that they act just right. Maybe carry him around at Home Depot when he's around 10-12 weeks, let him watch the automatic doors open and baskets being pushed....as long as all this isn't frightening or too wild for him. I'll just have to see. Every week or so, I usually take a pup, once it's had two vaccines to the vet for a social call with the gals at the front desk and a weight and cookie....just so he will think going to a vet is great fun. lol. Stuff like that. I also ask the vets in the area if they've seen any cases of parvo or anything serious around so I can be more careful than ever if there is.

Each puppy is different, so I'll adjust to the way this one seems to be...don't want to over whelm him but at the same time, want him to experience different people, safe, healthy dogs that I know, walk on different surfaces, which I have in my own yard, hear funny noises, like traffic (car rides) and so forth. 

My Doberman was very brave as a puppy. Nothing fazed him. I took him at about 12 weeks old to a small city and we walked past some workmen using a jack hammer, then watched a train go by and took a ride in an elevator. He was all about it. LOL. I was cringing as I walked past the jack hammer. lol. But not him. He walked right across grates in the side walk. Some dogs hate that. So, when he got to be an adult, he was not worried about much of anything. Of course, much depends on their temperament. But coupled with good socialization gives the best chance for a well adjusted dog, imo.

After two sets of vaccines, it's school for socialization with other pups (that are also vaccinated) and people. 

So, that's my plan. I have yet to order a couple ex pens and a few other items. The breeder said he'd show me what clippers and other grooming stuff to buy. So, that's a relief. Plus, I know there are neat threads here and on the other forum to learn from. I sure appreciate everybody's help.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sounds like a boy is just meant to be then! But just for the record, Taylee and Teaka were/ are exactly how you described the boys, but then my breeder choose that temperament for me. Tangee, from a different breeder is more how you described the girls. But I completely understand being fixed on something for me it's the color black - all of my beyond genius , heart dogs have been black, so that's what I've got to have.
I've never had a puppy @ at 8 weeks - Taylee was the youngest @13 weeks. I wonder if some of the people here could tell us if you can really get a good feel for the temperament at that age? There is something exciting about having a part in setting the temperament though! And besides, he will have your Chi's to teach him any doggie social rules if his original family had not finished the job!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, black is beautiful too...very striking. I especially like the big standards in black. White too is pretty, sparklingly pretty. So, I guess I like most all colors. Not really a fan of the reds. I don't know why. Maybe I'll change my mind one day. I tend to do that a lot. 

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had a puppy at 8 weeks either. My last GSD was 14 weeks as I recall. My Chocolate Lab was 10 weeks, my girl Chi was 7 months! And Jose` was 10 weeks. Dogs before were various ages. One we kept from our own litter when I was a kid. Another GSD was an adult when he came to me. So, this is really young and reeeeeeeelly small. Chulita, my girl Chi is the max on the Chihuahua standard at about 5-6 lbs. And Jose` is off the charts at 10 lbs, a moose. 

I have read that browns can tend toward a little more shyness or nervousness due to inbreeding in the past. I don't know if that would apply to this breeder's dogs. When I saw them at just 5 weeks of age, none acted one bit shy. Of course, they are very young and maybe that isn't time enough for that to show up. Temperament is what they're born with and I can't mold that really. An owner can only enhance or detract from their outlook on life or their behavior. But that temperament is the foundation I guess I'd call it. 

For example, my son's dog, a Pit bull mix was acquired out of a garbage bag from a ditch at 4 weeks of age, surrounded by dead litter mates. Some a.h. dumped them there. My son found the dog and gave it to a friend for a time. It turned out that the puppy was severely abused by some guys who were on drugs...kicked, yelled at, traumatized in many ways. My son got the dog back quite a bit later and you would hardly guess now that she had been abused. She does get stressed if there's a lot of tension or upset going on. And she use to become vicious with attempting to clip nails...absolutely ballistic. No vet would do them unless under anesthesia. I took about a week and conditioned her slowly to nail clipping and she is just fine now. In fact I use a dremel on her. She visits here often. 

She is the most lovely dog, trustworthy, unafraid of people or anything, willing, smart and easily trained. She's the same age as Chuli, 13. She loves everyone...acts like the stereotypical lab. She's just a lovely dog. I adore her and she is my son's whole world practically. She came to live with me for a year in Idaho when my son was out of state for that time on a job where he couldn't take her. Anyhow, that's what I call a good, stable temperament. She was able to over come all that horrible treatment from her puppyhood. A dog with a poor temperament and treatment that is _much_ milder than that could turn out horribly. That is seen often.

Wow, I sure go off on tangents, don't I.

You're so right. My mature Chi's, I expect to assist me in schooling this puppy in the ways of the world. lol. They're very stable and well behaved, cheerful and I'm pretty sure they'll be great with the new puppy. Let's hope so. lol. That would suck if it didn't turn out well with them. But we'd adjust.


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## TammyQ (Feb 10, 2012)

My Hudson is brown and he is starting to get a few white-ish hairs here and there. His mother was white and his father was also brown, but a light brown. Hudson is still quite a dark brown. (And he is healing nicely from his broken toe.) This picture was taken a couple days ago....he has since been to the groomer and doesn't look quite so shaggy.


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## Mr Babykins Jasper (Dec 8, 2012)

Not to be a buzzkill--but does colour really matter? I mean, I know it matters a great deal in the show ring--but why should it? Bad colour dogs are just as sweet and intelligent as good coloured dogs.

The whole thing reminds me of eugenics. I realise it is just dogs--but why can't my brown poodle have green eyes and light brown pigments?--for example.

My boy actually is a red--a rusty, orangey red with black pigments and dark brown eyes. He also had an adorable white angel's kiss that (sadly)grew out. There is a sweet little patch of white on his chest that is almost invisible, and he has two white toe nails. When the hair on his hind feet grow out, he has some tufts of white there. These colours are what set him apart from the rest of the litter (for me).

If I was to breed (I have no plans to), I would like to think that I would breed for temperament and intelligence, instead of looks.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Mr Babykins Jasper said:


> Not to be a buzzkill--but does colour really matter? Bad colour dogs are just as sweet and intelligent as good coloured dogs.
> 
> I would like to think that I would breed for temperament and intelligence, instead of looks.


AND HEALTH

I agree 100 %. Breeders that are breeding solely for colour without thought to the health and temperaments of their puppies are doing the poodle breed a great disservice. As long as people are fixated on the colour of their poodle there will be people breeding solely to fulfill that market.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Why do you suppose they make Poodles in so many colors?

Me...I do my utmost to research and find a reputable breeder who is conscientious of health, does the applicable testing, who breeds only the best temperaments that line up with the standard and who breeds sound dogs that adhere to the conformation standard. But when I settled on a breeder who I think is going to give me a great puppy, I then move onto color. I am very interested in color, how the genetics of it works, how some colors change. It's fun and pleasurable to look at something that strikes one as artistic....if one is into that. I like different colors. I enjoy the colors of my flowers, my paintings, all kinds of things. I enjoy looking at something beautiful. Doesn't anyone else? 

_Of course....it goes without saying _that most people who care about dogs, know about dogs want a healthy, emotionally and mentally sound dog that can physically perform what he was bred to do or something like it. I wouldn't choose a dog on color alone, as seems to be implied here.

It is indeed a shame that some breeders are irresponsible. That is a hot topic on these forums all the time. Byb marketing gimmicks to make money from unsuspecting, uninformed buyers.

So to answer your question, does color really matter? Well, yep, it does to _some_ degree for me.

Oh, and it wasn't a buzzkill for me. I'm still just as excited as ever for my new puppy and hope he is a really nice color. I already am as sure as I can be about his health potential, temperament and physical/mental abilities.


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## Mr Babykins Jasper (Dec 8, 2012)

YES! And health!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Well, black is beautiful too...very striking. I especially like the big standards in black. White too is pretty, sparklingly pretty. So, I guess I like most all colors. Not really a fan of the reds. I don't know why. Maybe I'll change my mind one day. I tend to do that a lot.
> 
> Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever had a puppy at 8 weeks either. My last GSD was 14 weeks as I recall. My Chocolate Lab was 10 weeks, my girl Chi was 7 months! And Jose` was 10 weeks. Dogs before were various ages. One we kept from our own litter when I was a kid. Another GSD was an adult when he came to me. So, this is really young and reeeeeeeelly small. Chulita, my girl Chi is the max on the Chihuahua standard at about 5-6 lbs. And Jose` is off the charts at 10 lbs, a moose.
> 
> ...


*Oh, I think it will - Teaka, my youngest was housebroken in one day - and when I took her to puppy class, I found out that although I had not even attempted to teach her the basics, she already knew them from watching her sisters! *


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I think looks are incredibly important when breeding. The look of a dog says a lot about their structure and is a large part of what defines one breed from another. 

A long bodied, short legged, short snouted poodle is not how a poodle should look. I would never breed a dog that did not look like a poodle should, no matter how healthy and stable their temperament.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Locket said:


> I think looks are incredibly important when breeding. The look of a dog says a lot about their structure and is a large part of what defines one breed from another.
> 
> A long bodied, short legged, short snouted poodle is not how a poodle should look. I would never breed a dog that did not look like a poodle should, no matter how healthy and stable their temperament.


Exactly. I agree.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I love the various shades of brown. Although some people see dark brown as the most desirable I look at dogs like C. Millie who has lightened up quite a bit and she just gets more beautiful as she gets older.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I love the various shades of brown. Although some people see dark brown as the most desirable I look at dogs like C. Millie who has lightened up quite a bit and she just gets more beautiful as she gets older.


I love Millie's color too and Delilah and a few others...is it Fred? I forget some of the names.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

*Originally Posted by Locket * 
I think looks are incredibly important when breeding. The look of a dog says a lot about their structure and is a large part of what defines one breed from another. 

A long bodied, short legged, short snouted poodle is not how a poodle should look. I would never breed a dog that did not look like a poodle should, no matter how healthy and stable their temperament.




*Originally posted by Poodlebeguiled*
_Of course....it goes without saying _that most people who care about dogs, know about dogs want a healthy, emotionally and mentally sound dog that can physically perform what he was bred to do or something like it. I wouldn't choose a dog on color alone, as seems to be implied here.

It is indeed a shame that some breeders are irresponsible. That is a hot topic on these forums all the time. Byb marketing gimmicks to make money from unsuspecting, uninformed buyers.

So to answer your question, does color really matter? Well, yep, it does to _some_ degree for me.

**********************************************************************************************************************


I agree with you Locket, structure is important...but unfortunately many breeders who focus only on colour, will only breed those dogs that have colour and they do not take into account, structure, health, temperament.
And one of the reasons that they consistently do this is because not all people are like poodlebeguiled, who did research on all aspects of her future poodle. Sometimes it is worth saying because not all people are willing to see past the colour they have decided they must have.


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## Mr Babykins Jasper (Dec 8, 2012)

Just to clarify--I am not implying that anyone only thinks of colour or that it is not acceptable to prefer certain colours over others.

I am saying that there seems to be too much of a focus on perfection in colour IN GENERAL. The idea that anything could be a "bad brown" is suggestive of a widespread ethic that colour is more important than it needs to be. 

TO ME things like eye colour and skin colour and fur colour are the least important thing about a good dog---TO ME all combination of these things remain beautiful, but we know that not everyone thinks this way. Some people only value the pooch if it has the correct combination of these things.

I suppose that my dog is actually a parti--because it has a bit of white fur and some white toes. He won't go far in the show ring--but as a therapy dog he could be a star.

Which brings us back to not breeding good temperament dogs with imperfect bodies. I FEEL that (in the case of breeding companion service dogs) temperament is the most important thing while looks are secondary.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Mr Babykins Jasper said:


> Just to clarify--I am not implying that anyone only thinks of colour or that it is not acceptable to prefer certain colours over others.
> 
> I am saying that there seems to be too much of a focus on perfection in colour IN GENERAL. The idea that anything could be a "bad brown" is suggestive of a widespread ethic that colour is more important than it needs to be.
> 
> ...


The problem is that if someone is breeding dogs with "imperfect" or rather, incorrect conformation or other traits which veer from what the breed standard is, then they probably aren't breeding with care about temperament either. Sure, we meet dogs a lot of the time that aren't well constructed but have good temperaments and visa versa. And there are those who are not, both mixes and purebreds. Why take the risk? If we're going to breed purebred dogs, looks need not and should not be sacrificed for temperament and visa versa.

A good breeder doesn't breed for one characteristic and let the rest go to pot. A good breeder selects all the traits which make a breed a breed. A good breeder looks at the whole dog. If it is acceptable that a dog has one nice thing....a nice temperament, but bad looks, then we eventually lose our purebred dogs and the jobs they were selectively bred to do. That's why we have all these breeds in the first place.

Imperfect bodies can mean unsoundness and poor health. There's a reason for the criteria that responsible breeders must adhere to and strive to improve. A good temperament isn't going to do anybody any good if the dog's bad looks are causing lameness or worse. Good looks (what is described of the particular breed) equal a healthy body and that's every bit as important as a good temperament. Color, not so much. But there's no reason why we can't have it all. 

Most of the health and temperament problems in our dogs these days have been brought about by sloppy breeding practices, where poor breeders have not been thorough...have not selected for the _WHOLE_ dog.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread about browns is their amazing eye color. I love our cream boy Beau's nearly black eyes, but there's just something striking and incredibly expressive about the amber eyes of a brown -- "bad" or not. That, and a sweet brown nose, are far more important considerations to me than whether or not the hair color fades over time. Personally, I think clearing and fading is just one more fascinating and beautiful aspect of owning a poodle, and had a brown (or a silver) been available when we were searching for the perfect puppy, that's probably what we'd have today. Next time . . .


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> had a brown *(or a silver)* been available when we were searching for the perfect puppy, that's probably what we'd have today. Next time . . .


Chagall says he likes how you think! And he knows he would have been very happy in your family.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

LEUllman said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread about browns is their amazing eye color. I love our cream boy Beau's nearly black eyes, but there's just something striking and incredibly expressive about the amber eyes of a brown -- "bad" or not. That, and a sweet brown nose, are far more important considerations to me than whether or not the hair color fades over time. *Personally, I think clearing and fading is just one more fascinating and beautiful aspect of owning a poodle, and had a brown (or a silver) been available when we were searching for the perfect puppy, that's probably what we'd have today. Next time .* . .



It's really interesting to me too and would be a privilege and adventure to experience that.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> The problem is that if someone is breeding dogs with "imperfect" or rather, incorrect conformation or other traits which veer from what the breed standard is, then they probably aren't breeding with care about temperament either. Sure, we meet dogs a lot of the time that aren't well constructed but have good temperaments and visa versa. And there are those who are not, both mixes and purebreds. Why take the risk? If we're going to breed purebred dogs, looks need not and should not be sacrificed for temperament and visa versa.
> 
> A good breeder doesn't breed for one characteristic and let the rest go to pot. A good breeder selects all the traits which make a breed a breed. A good breeder looks at the whole dog. If it is acceptable that a dog has one nice thing....a nice temperament, but bad looks, then we eventually lose our purebred dogs and the jobs they were selectively bred to do. That's why we have all these breeds in the first place.
> 
> ...


Excellent post! 
One of the reasons that I was drawn to the breed (rather then perhaps a Shih Tzu or a Maltese) is the sound and healthy structure of a correct poodle's body, head, eyes and muzzle. What keeps me coming back is temperament and IQ, - the pretty is just icing on the cake. Yes, the folks who are breeding for all of those good qualities are also breeding for nice colors, but I don't see how anybody who was breeding ONLY with regard for color, would ever have much success in the show ring if they neglected everything else - a bow legged, long backed, round eyed poodle limping around the ring and biting the judge gets a ribbon because it's a "good brown"? I don't think so!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

TLP said:


> *Originally Posted by Locket *
> I think looks are incredibly important when breeding. The look of a dog says a lot about their structure and is a large part of what defines one breed from another.
> 
> A long bodied, short legged, short snouted poodle is not how a poodle should look. I would never breed a dog that did not look like a poodle should, no matter how healthy and stable their temperament.
> ...


Well, I think that what you say could very well be true for certain types of breeders (backyard, and puppy mill), I don't think it is possible for a Reputable Show Breeder to vary significantly from the breed standard in structure, health or temperament (at least not for long), and win in the ring. 
And that is why one of the things that I personally look for in a breeder is one with a LONG history of producing champions - I do not think it is possible that someone whose breeding efforts have consistently, over time, won the approval of their peers could possibly be caring about only one trait such as color - nope, somebody like that would be weeded out very quickly!
And by the way, my favorite breeder has finished multiple champions in all of the major colors!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

In my opinion, temperament is the most important aspect. With a bad temperament, everything else is kind of irrelevant. Who wants a healthy, long lived dog with an aggressive temperament? Who wants a beautiful example of the breed in structure and conformation that is aggressive or difficult to live with?

Breeding is ideally done for the whole package. A package that includes Temperament, Health, Type, Structure, Conformation, and Beauty. In my opinion, color really is pretty far down on the list of importance. Though I am admittedly a sucker for good pigment.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> In my opinion, temperament is the most important aspect. With a bad temperament, everything else is kind of irrelevant. Who wants a healthy, long lived dog with an aggressive temperament? Who wants a beautiful example of the breed in structure and conformation that is aggressive or difficult to live with?
> 
> *Breeding is ideally done for the whole package. A package that includes Temperament, Health, Type, Structure, Conformation, and Beauty. In my opinion, color really is pretty far down on the list of importance.* Though I am admittedly a sucker for good pigment.


I agree with you, but I happen to believe that their are certain personality traits that I like that tend to be associated with the color black - I don't choose black because I prefer the look, and I could care less if my future black has a mis-mark or fades. Looks wise, I would much rather have one of the lighter colors (as long as they don't tear stain), but I am choosing black for the temperament and IQ!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I agree with you, but I happen to believe that their are certain personality traits that I like that tend to be associated with the color black - I don't choose black because I prefer the look, and I could care less if my future black has a mis-mark or fades. Looks wise, I would much rather have one of the lighter colors (as long as they don't tear stain), but I am choosing black for the temperament and IQ!


I don't think there is much truth to certain colors differing in temperament as any kind of rule. It would be more that certain lines, which might happen to breed certain colors, differ in temperament.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I don't think there is much truth to certain colors differing in temperament as any kind of rule. It would be more that certain lines, which might happen to breed certain colors, differ in temperament.


Oh, I don't think that it is a hard and fast rule - just what I have found in my personal experience ( one white, one silver, one apricot and three blacks) all of my blacks were spooky smart - like my friend would say about my blacks " if you gave them a piece of paper and a pen, they would write you a note" And while I am sure that others will say that they have had other colors who were like that, I feel that my odds of finding that are better with a black. Also, I have to say it is not something that I could distinguish when they were puppies, it was something that developed as they matured, so that is why from now on I choose black!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, I don't think that it is a hard and fast rule - just what I have found in my personal experience ( one white, one silver, one apricot and three blacks) all of my blacks were spooky smart - like my friend would say about my blacks " if you gave them a piece of paper and a pen, they would write you a note" And while I am sure that others will say that they have had other colors who were like that, I feel that my odds of finding that are better with a black. Also, I have to say it is not something that I could distinguish when they were puppies, it was something that developed as they matured, so that is why from now on I choose black!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It very likely had nothing to do with the color of the dog, but the breeding of the dog. You can get just as "spooky smart" of a dog in another color.

If you are looking for a pet and want a certain color, that's understandable as everyone - even breeders - have preferences when it comes to color. But realize that in the end - it's the breeding, genetics, temperament, and socialization of the puppy that makes its personality - and that has little to nothing to do with what color the dog is.


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> In my opinion, temperament is the most important aspect. With a bad temperament, everything else is kind of irrelevant. Who wants a healthy, long lived dog with an aggressive temperament? Who wants a beautiful example of the breed in structure and conformation that is aggressive or difficult to live with?
> 
> Breeding is ideally done for the whole package. A package that includes Temperament, Health, Type, Structure, Conformation, and Beauty. In my opinion, color really is pretty far down on the list of importance. Though I am admittedly a sucker for good pigment.


Agree!! Health and temperament share the number one spot for most important things I'm looking for. 


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

There's a story going around that red Dobermans are more laid back and docile than black Dobermans. They say there was a red Doberman way back when that passed on this personality trait and still today many people say they think red Dobermans are a little more calm and sweet. I have no idea because I only had black. And I don't think they should be too laid back. LOL. After all, they have a job to do. :act-up:

Another possibility is that there could be a piggy back gene that hasn't been discovered yet. Or a gene that links to other unrelated traits. Like tameness being selected for in the Russian fox experiment. Only docility/tameness was bred for and other physical and morphological changes were expressed in coat color change, tail shape and set, drop ears developed, extended reproductive seasons started happening, smaller teeth and jaws and some other stuff. 

It is thought that brain hormones (pituitary) changed along with becoming less aggressive (because you don't need to be aggressive when you have nothing to fear like in the wild) (these foxes were becoming domestic) and that may have a link to the physical changes because the scientists theorized that adrenaline (which altered in the tame domestic foxes) shares a biochemical pathway with melanin, which controls pigment in fur.

Well, without blabbing anymore, there could be something that we don't know yet. Of course, we can't make any kind of _true _experiment when we have no significant consistency noted or any kind of controlled study or large subject group. Plus, not only that, but Poodles can have many different color genes behind them, so it would be extremely difficult to say, if you could say it at all, what color is correlated with a certain personality trait. But my point is that it is conceivable to have certain unrelated characteristics which are linked to another characteristic.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> There's a story going around that red Dobermans are more laid back and docile than black Dobermans. They say there was a red Doberman way back when that passed on this personality trait and still today many people say they think red Dobermans are a little more calm and sweet. I have no idea because I only had black. And I don't think they should be too laid back. LOL. After all, they have a job to do. :act-up:
> 
> Another possibility is that there could be a piggy back gene that hasn't been discovered yet. Or a gene that links to other unrelated traits. Like tameness being selected for in the Russian fox experiment. Only docility/tameness was bred for and other physical and morphological changes were expressed in coat color change, tail shape and set, drop ears developed, extended reproductive seasons started happening, smaller teeth and jaws and some other stuff.
> 
> ...


That's a very insightful perspective!
For me though, I'm really not talking about personality, as much as I am talking IQ - for me, the poodles that have been freaky smart - the ones that would communicate with me by pantomiming something until I understood what they were trying to tell me, and the ones that would demonstrate that they had completely understood complex conversations between myself and DH have always been the blacks. And I am not saying that other colors could not be like that, I am just saying that since it's not something that I can discern when they are young, and in my limited experience, it's always been the blacks, I'm going to bet my next 15 years of poodle happiness on a black!
Oh, and by the way, my favorite breeder, who has finished many, many champions, in all colors, and of course had her choice of every kind of flashy looking poodle also picked a tiny black as her special, go everywhere with her, heart dog - maybe a coincidence, but maybe she sees the same thing in blacks that I do ?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If only it really was that simple!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> If only it really was that simple!


ha ha - of course, you do need to throw in a little good breeding, a breeder who is a good match maker, socialization, good nutrition, varied experiences, and lots of loving care to the mix - but all of my poodles have gotten that! The only variable that I can, in my limited experience discern is the color!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have lived with 3 black standard poodles, one white, and one brown and have had the pleasure of meeting and interacting with many more. In my personal experience, I have not found the black poodles to have been any more "intelligent" than the other colors. And - in most cases - I can take a look at the pedigree and their temperament/personality/intelligence all makes a _lot_ of sense.... For what it's worth, my faded brown is the most "intelligent" (in my subjective opinion) and the second most social.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, and another color thing - after I got my silver Teaka (the worst, yap at every breeze that blows dog that I've ever had), I heard that silver Toys were known to be bad yappers - has anyone else heard/experienced this?
One thing for sure, no matter what the color "not an excessive yapper" now has a permanent place on my "traits a puppy must have list"!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, and another color thing - after I got my silver Teaka (the worst, yap at every breeze that blows dog that I've ever had), I heard that silver Toys were known to be bad yappers - has anyone else heard/experienced this?
> One thing for sure, no matter what the color "not an excessive yapper" now has a permanent place on my "traits a puppy must have list"!


But behavior itself isn't genetic. Only a personality that might "lend" itself to an animal or human being the type who might be more likely to engage in certain kinds of behaviors. It's like saying bungy jumping or sky diving is genetic. No, of course it's not. But a personality that may steer a person or animal to certain types of activities is. Think of the traits someone's personality has that makes them tend to engage in those kinds of activities as an example. What do they all have in common?

To come to a conclusion in a parsimonious way, one must have a much more controlled study than having heard through the grape vine something like that. Or knowing a handful of dogs that have engaged in the same type of behaviors. I bet I could find as many silver poodles that hardly make a peep. lol. 

It would be like asking several people who are drinking Gatoraid if they have cancer. When they say, "no" you conclude that drinking Gatoraid keeps people from having cancer.

In other words, there's no evidence that silver poodles yap more than another color. There are also too many variables that haven't been ruled out. Maybe the owner doesn't train the dog. Maybe one dog has more stimuli that triggers a lot of yapping than another. Maybe one dog perceives things differently than another individual so barks at different things. Maybe one dog is simply less socialized than another. You'd have to take many, many dogs....hundreds, run a controlled study where everything in each dog's life is as "the same" from day one, (which is impossible) so one variable isn't influencing a behavior in one dog but not the other to be able to say that it is because it is silver that it yaps more. 

And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. LOL. :act-up:


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have a silver toy and he is not a yapper. He still barks when I go upstairs and leave him on the first floor but other than that he barks more or less appropriately.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> But behavior itself isn't genetic. Only a personality that might "lend" itself to an animal or human being the type who might be more likely to engage in certain kinds of behaviors. It's like saying bungy jumping or sky diving is genetic. No, of course it's not. But a personality that may steer a person or animal to certain types of activities is. Think of the traits someone's personality has that makes them tend to engage in those kinds of activities as an example. What do they all have in common?
> 
> *To come to a conclusion in a parsimonious way, one must have a much more controlled study than having heard through the grape vine something like that. Or knowing a handful of dogs that have engaged in the same type of behaviors. I bet I could find as many silver poodles that hardly make a peep. lol. *
> It would be like asking several people who are drinking Gatoraid if they have cancer. When they say, "no" you conclude that drinking Gatoraid keeps people from having cancer.
> ...


True, but I feel pretty certain that there is something in Teaka's genes (linked to color or not) that causes this, because not only was she the 6th poodle that I have raised (and only yapper), she was the youngest of a pack of 3 - with all of the same other intervening variables as her 2 sisters...
Anyhow, no matter that my next will most definitely be black, "not yapping at every breeze that blows" is high on my list of must haves!


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