# Backyard Breeders



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

I couldn't agree more!


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## Maussie (May 18, 2013)

Well said!

Marci


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Great article! Thanks for sharing the link.


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

You are very welcome......


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## SPoo Luvr (Feb 25, 2013)

I have a question, and as the article points out, it's better if breeders handle them patiently, professionally and without flaming us uneducated individuals for our questions. It's an honest question, so please be kind in responding.

I have a new-found interest in breeding. I presently have two spayed females (7 years and 5 months), so obviously, I'm thinking about the future. My girls both came from different BYB's because those were the people who treated me nicely -- professional breeders were generally unwelcoming and also because, again as the article points out, I was not in a position to pay $2,000 for a family pet. My dogs cost $300 (no AKC registration) and $850 (limited AKC registration). No testing was done on either of my dogs' parents. I rolled the dice, and so far so good. 

This is my thought: Wouldn't it be great if there was a place where people could go to buy a family pet where they will be greeted by a warm and friendly breeder (SO hard to find!), where they can pay a reasonable price for a beautiful well-bred puppy with fully health tested parents, and receive a packet of information with parents' testing results, complete vet records, etc.? My idea is to retire in a few years and when I do, I could become that type of breeder. The only thing I won't do is show or finish my dogs. I was thinking that my next spoos will be well-bred dogs from good lines and tested parents. They will come from reputable breeders and of course I will have to pay in the $2,000-$3,000 range for them, I expect that. I plan to do my homework (and hopefully get help from a reputable breeder nice enough to help me) to ensure that the lines and color backgrounds are good to breed to each other, I plan to have my dogs fully health tested (annually, if required for certain things), and of course, I plan to ensure that every dog and puppy receives proper veterinary care (that goes without saying). While I don't plan to show my dogs or finish them, if my dogs are well-bred with excellent backgrounds, they would have the potential of producing show quality puppies for those buyers who might want to dip their toes into that arena. 

Why do I want to do this? (1) I LOVE standard poodles and I would love to be able to share the breed with everyone else who loves them, (2) I would love the hobby to occupy some of my time when I am retired, (3) I want to be able to sell quality puppies at an affordable price to people who (like me) would LOVE to own a spoo, but only want a family dog and can't justify the $2,000 price when they have children and other obligations, and (4) I suppose the few extra dollars when I'm retired might help -- I figure that it'll cost in the area of $1,000 per litter for the vet care, feeding, whelping box toys so one can go home with each puppy, etc. Am I off base with that guess?

Would this be a do-able thing, or am I way off base? If I'm off base, can you please help me understand why? Be nice! I'm sensitive! LOL


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*SPoo Luvr*: Parts of this thread may be of interest to you.
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/26242-breeding-dogs.html#post311530


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I suspect that you are underestimating the costs of breeding. First, the cost of tests mounts up very rapidly, and you cannot know whether your bitch will pass them until she is an adult, so you may end up with several bitches, only one of which can be bred. Unless you plan on breeding from only one stud - your own - you will need to pay a stud fee, which in the UK is usually the equivalent to the price of a puppy, and is not refunded if the bitch fails to get pregnant.. If you have more than one bitch, the odds are very much against finding a male that is exactly right to counterbalance the different minor faults in each of your females, so you would probably have to use an outside stud for at least some of your litters. 

Now start on vet care through pregnancy - scans, etc - and through whelping, including the possible need for an emergency caesarian section. If the pups are born alive and healthy, there are the costs of high quality food through lactation, vet care and vaccinations for the puppies - as you will be retired, you won't need to take time off work so there is a saving there! And then you need to be prepared to keep the pups until you find the right buyers (a litter of standard pups can cause a LOT of wear and tear!), and to take a puppy back at any time no matter what kind of mess the owner has made of it ...

As discussed on the thread Chagall's Mum posted above, there is a lot to think about!


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## SPoo Luvr (Feb 25, 2013)

Wow, thank you Chagall's Mom and FJM for all the very helpful information. There really is a lot to consider and I'm taking all of it in. 

Chagall's Mom, after sifting through all the comments in that link that appeared to be intended to hammer the posters' individual beliefs into everyone else's heads, I WAS able to find some very helpful comments that were intended to educate and inform. There is a huge difference between preaching and teaching, and once I found the _teachers'_ comments, I was able to learn some very helpful information, thank you so much!! 

FJM, yes, I actually did hope to ultimately have my own stud dog and one or maybe two dams. They would be my pets first, and puppy parents second. So, if any of them didn't pass the full spectrum of health testing, they would be spayed and neutered immediately and remain my beloved pets. So, as you point out, it's certainly possible that I could end up with three unbreedable pets -- and if that happened, that would be ok. Disappointing, but ok. I would never want to pass on anything undesireable. 

Time will help me make my decision. I appreciate you taking the time to offer your valuable words of wisdom. 

Have a blessed and happy day.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

I just posted similar thoughts on another thread on breeding. Agree 100%. Breed enthusiasts can really go too far. I read a statistic, that 25% of hoarding cases are breed rescue workers, because those folks can't find a single human who's worthy to adopt one of their dogs and end up taking all the dogs to their own houses.

My sister recently tried to get a rottie from a breed rescue, holy smokes. 5 years of tax returns. Right to inspect premises at any time. Veto power over travel plans and home remodeling. Need to consult before having any more kids. Some of those folks are just crazy, they're not helping dogs, it's a cry for help more like.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Not to bad mouth the rescue organizations but some of the people I came across when I tried to rescue in 2011 had been so very unpleasant when they know I work full time and I live in a 2-bdrm apt. We're trying to adopt a bichon fries at the time, not some breed who need a fenced back yard but the rescue lady said oh no, I can't have her all couped up in an apt. What? I don't want to be couped up in an apt either. I found these rescue organizations to be very judgemental.

Sorry if this if off topic. Every time I see something like this, I remember how unpleasant my experience was with rescue orgs.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

I couldn't agree more about many rescue groups. Too many have unrealistic ideas of the right home for their rescues and they prevent many dogs from receiving great homes! I have a friend whose lab/shepherd mix died a few years ago. She was 17 years old when she died and my friend had put $30,000 towards her vet care through her life time. That dog was my friends world and many times put her dogs health before her own. Gave her the best life possible and was able to afford to give her top of the line vet care. A year before she died, she looked like a 7 year old dog. She was still playful and Her skin and coat was so soft and healthy. Her last year of life she began to really slow down and her health began to deterriate and when my friend could no longer keep her feeling comfortable and her quality of life was less she let her go. It was devastating and very heartbreaking. After 7 months she was ready to fill the emptiness she felt and rescue a lab or lab mix. She talked to several rescue groups and contacted our local humane society. One day she called me in tears and told me it was useless because she was never going to be able to adopt another dog because the rescue groups were beginning to convince her she was not capable of being a responsible dog owner. Some would deny her because she didn't have a tall enough fence, some denied her because she is a smoker, even though she doesn't smoke in her house and she was willing to have them come over and inspect her home, which does not smell like cigarettes( I'm a non smoker who is very sensitive to cigarette smoke and if I didn't know she was a smoker I would not be able to tell by walking into her home)
Some also denied her because she has cats. 
I convinced her that she is an amazing pet owner and that she just hasn't come across the puppy who was meant for her yet and to just be patient because maybe the puppy meant for her just hasn't been born yet and when the puppy for her is ready they will find each other. 6 months later she found a reputable lab breeder who had AKC puppies who had health testing a and guarantees. The breeder thought she was a fantastic candidate for one of her puppies. 



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## lfalz (May 10, 2013)

So. I have to say. I like the poster who just wants to breed healthy PETs to help share her love of poodles. That is where my Hairy Potter came from. Firstly there were NO standard Rescues in Minnesota when I started looking...All the rescue groups including "doodles" (which I also considered) were asking for sun moon and stars and info that IMHO is none of their business. I had pricing range from 450 -1000.00 for these dogs. The breeders of Standard Poodles (whom i respect deeply) wanted a MINIMUM of 1800.00. It is just not practical for me to spend that on the purchase of a dog whose job it is to protect me from Rhinos, dinosaurs and keep the rabbits afraid of the fence line. 

I kept looking and eventually I got lucky. I got him from a breeder who owns both the bitch and the stud. They are her pets. She breeds to share her love of poodles and I was in the right place at the right time. I got for my patience a puppy who had been delightfully socialized. With decent parentage purchased with Limited registration that I can love and show off and delight in hopefully forever. As a former GSD owner I get the fear of irresponsible breeders. That is why we need people like the poster who can breed good dogs and not get a couple of house payments for the pups. 

Ok you can all tell me why I am wrong now. :act-up:


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

lfalz said:


> . It is just not practical for me to spend that on the purchase of a dog whose job it is to protect me from Rhinos, dinosaurs and keep the rabbits afraid of the fence line. :



Hhhaha this line made me giggle out loud!!!



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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

After my SO and I met Luce for the first time when she was 5 weeks old, we started thinking about getting a rescue or a dog needing to be re-homed.  I went to Petfinder and saw some good candidates by description seemed to be a good fit. All I had to do is read their contracts! I am not a crazy private person, on the other hand I don't want strangers snooping around my house. My SO is disabled and has a chronic illness, and stays in the living room 24/7 - he doesn't want strangers in his private space and I don't blame him. We don't have a fenced in yard and will get one when we have the money to do it. Just the terms on the contracts were enough to scare me off!! 

Then I went to Craigslist. I saw several candidates looking like a nice fit. I emailed them - about 4-5 I don't recall the exact number. What I do recall is not one responded about the re-homing I was offering. I doubt if they all found homes withing hours of posting the ad.

Luce was right next door. I see the owners of the parents every few weeks or so, Luce gets to play with Mom and Dad and all 3 have a great time.

I must have had at least 20 people ask me if they had anymore puppies when they saw Luce in training classes! Even just a few weeks ago now that she is looking more like a dog and less of a puppy.

There are a lot of people who will give a dog a good home, take care of it and it will be a family member, but like me and so many others - I couldn' t afford to pay upwards of 1k or more for a dog. And I will not be judged by total strangers if we are "worthy" to take in one of their rescues.


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## spotsonofbun (Jan 3, 2013)

I don't see the point of paying for a puppy unless it comes from a responsible breeder who titles the dogs, if im getting a purebred I want it to be close to the standard both temperamentally and look wise and of course to healthy. 

Im a student I don't have a lot of money but Im saving into a puppyfund, if I can't afford it I can't get it. Very simple. I also think that any dog will be expensive so my puppyfund will be as big if I get a rescue, over the lifetime of the dog that original starter cost probably isn't a big deal, they all end up being expensive in one way or another.


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