# tail docking?



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Read where?

From the AKC Poodle Standard:

*(c) Tail* straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline. Major fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back. 

*Major Faults:* Any distinct deviation from the desired characteristics described in the Breed Standard.

*Disqualifications:* Size - A dog over or under the height limits specified shall be disqualified. Clip - A dog in any type of clip other than those listed under coat shall be disqualified. Particolors - The coat of a parti-colored dog is not an even solid color at the skin but of two or more colors. Parti-colored dogs shall be disqualified

A full tail would be considered a fault, but it's not a DQ.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I have a dog with an appropriately long show dock. My dog's breeder docks only for the purposes of show and will stop if akc stops penalizing undocked dog's.

I don't have an issue with appropriate show docks. Only a little is removed and the dog still has full tail function. Most backyard breeders only leave a nub which looks weird and prevents normal tail use.

While I'd be happy to have an undocked dog, it just isn't a high priority to me. I have a lot of other priorities that breeders must meet first. I think it is easier to find standard breeders that don't dock. I only know a couple good mini breeders that don't.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Both of my girl, both from show breeders, had/have docked tails. While I don’t love it, it is something I can live with.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Very long dock on this boy, he uses his tail a lot so Im glad he has plenty of it 🐩


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Elroy is docked. My breeder does show for conformation and doesn't know which pup will be held back (if any) for show at the time of docking (2-3 days). I don't know enough about docking to say if this is a normal docked length, but I'm thinking it is. I think I'd prefer it to be a bit longer though.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

All four of my poodle boys had natural tails. And each tail was different! Ritter's tail is the straightest so far. Pogo had a great sweeping arc that curved towards his back. Snarky's tail had even more of a curve; he carried it so it looked like the handle of a teapot. Galen's tail curls so much it touches his back like a Spitz dog' tail. I was a bit horrified when I saw it starting to curl when he was a puppy, but now I think it's kind of cute. He spins his tail like a propeller when he is ecstatic.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Basil has a long tail. I didn't have a choice. It's not really something I notice for a companion. She whips around the garden corners like a cheetah. It whips you when she shakes and you're behind her. 

It's a good talking point with a breeder to show you're looking over every detail. That, and what are they doing with the dew claws? 

Because you know you stuff and are legit. 

Not that it makes a difference, priority Z like what Raindrops mentioned.


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## PowersPup (Aug 28, 2020)

Topper's breeder docks all the puppies' tails because she doesn't know at the time which ones she will keep for show/breeding. His tail is magnificent - looks like a fluffy black plume. And it's almost always held high.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My two minipoos have a long docked tail because their breeders show in conformation. I wouldn’t mind an undocked tail and hope that becomes the norm.

I do feel sad when I see these tiny docked little stubby tails.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Evelyn has a long dock, but his breeder did 50/50 for the litter. I was actually there to see his undocked brother and ended up selecting Evelyn instead based on temperament. It's still important to me, but temperament is a top priority next to health testing. Tails are priority 3.


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

Poodle tail docking

Why Do Poodles Get Their Tails Docked? The reasons for tail docking are purely cosmetic. *There is no physical benefit* for the dog in having a docked tail. The AKC does not permit Poodles with natural tails to be shown, so owners of show dogs dock their dogs' tails in order to be able to participate in dog shows.Feb 1, 2021

*Poodle Tails - Docked or Natural? - SpiritDog Training*
I hadn't given it any thought and then I saw the above.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

They don't site the source for their "undocked Poodles can't be shown in AKC conformation" statement. While it might be darned hard to finish a Poodle with a natural tail, they can be shown. Just like a Doberman with natural ears can be shown. Again, it's darned hard to do (there have been just over a dozen, I think, mostly from one breeder), since the standard calls for them to be cropped, and uncropped ears are considered a serious fault, but it can be done.


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

In my province Ear-cropping & tail-docking is prohibited since 2017. That means my pup has a full tail and dew claws.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I found a very informative PF thread from 2013 which includes several of PF's breeder/members discussing tails. 
(11) Undocked tails and the AKC? | Poodle Forum 



TeamHellhound said:


> While it might be darned hard to finish a Poodle with a natural tail, they can be shown.


Thank you for prompting me to look further into this .


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Undocked Poodles can absolutely be shown in AKC. The Olunds finished a white bitch who was to be exported to Finland. It was after Finland's kennel club rules changed to disallow showing of docked dogs.

Of course to finish an undocked exhibit here, one would probably need a Poodle of near perfect conformation and temperament. And a pro handler, most likely. But that's pretty typical anyway 😊.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

As stated earlier the poodle standard does call for a tail that is docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline, with that in mind a breeder that is breeding toward the standard should be docking the tails. An ethical breeder is suppose to breed according to the standard, and not pick and choose what they like and don't like. Also many people feel that a breeder should be "proving" their breeding parents which is done in the show ring. If a country has a different standard then ethically the breeder should be following that standard.

When done at a young age the puppy barely whimpers and directly goes about her/his business immediately with out missing a beat. I dock tails at 24 hours old. People are not going to like what I am saying, but it really does not bother the puppy when we do it, also cosmetically I like the balance of a properly docked tail and an undocked tail does not have that same balance. 

Short stubby tails are not a properly docked tail, only about 1/3 or less of the tail should be removed. A good breeder should also be the one telling the vet where to measure to dock each puppy's tail, not a generalization for the litter, but decide for each individual puppy tail since each puppy is different.

Can a poodle finish with a natural tail. Yes, but it is very difficult. I believe I was the first person to show a natural tail at PCA many, many years back. This was when PCA was still being held in Upper Marlboro. Annie Clark had just given a Judges Education class where she did tell judges to excuse undocked tails. I had a different judge ask the ring judge what she would do if I showed her a brown poodle imported from Switzerland with a natural tail, after much discussion she told him to relay to me, 'I would not be excused, but that would be all.' There was a class of over 20 puppies, I was second puppy in to enter the ring, after she judged the girl I was showing, she placed me on the other side of the ring, by myself and left me there until she chose her placements and dismissed the class.

Dew claws are something I feel strongly about. I use to work part time in a grooming shop and have seen way too many adult dogs rip out their dew claws on fences or other things. An old time breeder I knew when I was still living in NYC had a girl that accidently gouged her own eye out when she was cleaning her eye with the side of her leg. My vet has told me some fairly horrible stories about dew claw accidents that she claims is common.


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

I am just learning about poodles and I didn't even realize this was a thing for poodles. My English Toy Spaniel just passed away and she was a puppy mill rescue. Her tail was not docked, of course. I loved her tail. It Europe, docking is not allowed. I hope, at some point, the US follows suit.


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## CatholicCarry (Jul 9, 2021)

I’m not anti-docking, but I don’t really get docking Poodle tails. The history that I read indicated that the poorer Pudel owners docked their dogs’ tails, but the richer owners did not. From what I read, that was primarily an identification thing and theoretically thought to improve swimming ability I believe. Nowadays I know that it’s all about ‘balance’ and aiming for the closest to the breed standard, but I don’t really understand why the docked tail remains the standard in AKC. 

I know in some dogs (Australian a shepherds) are naturally bob-tailed, but I don’t think the same is true (baring some genetic disorders popping up) in Poodles. To my knowledge it also doesnt really serve a historical purpose for health (bob-tails in livestock herding Aussie developed for rough country is like dew-claw removal—prevents potentially life-threatening injury), or does it? So why continue the practice? What does the tail offset to produce the ephemeral ‘balance’ standard? 

Since my boy is a Doodle, he has a full tail and, compared to my bob-tailed Aussie, sometimes I wish he’d been docked…usually when he’s beating me with it in his exuberance. I also worry about him getting ‘happy-tail’ by beating immovable objects (like walls, door-frames, trees, fence posts, etc) with it. However, seeing that big, long, fluffy tail wagging so hard makes my heart happy.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

While some Aussies are naturally bob-tailed, most of them are docked. The bob-tailed gene is associated with spinal problems, which is why two NBT dogs shouldn't be bred to each other. 

My pittie has the skinniest whippy tail... I gotten bruises from it more than once, including a black eye (try explaining that one to people... luckily, I got it on video).


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## BrooklynBonnie (Jan 16, 2015)

Both my girls have natural tails. With Mochi, I was purposely looking for a breeder that does not dock. The one I got her from turned out not to be that great and she has a few health issues (more of a backyard breeder since they apparently stopped testing years ago but I didn't know the red flags back then).

With Chuui, I wanted a good breeder and was willing to sacrifice a natural tail because I didn't want health issues again. Chuui's breeder was in a another state so we didn't see anything but pictures until she arrived, and though I had numerous long phone calls with the breeder, that woman spent most of the time complaining about personal issues and I would not ask any questions unless absolutely necessary because I couldn't stay on the phone more than an hour before I wanted to do something bad to this lady, LOL but had to keep her happy until we had our puppy. When we got home with Chuui the first night, I was petting her and felt her tail. The tip felt the same as Mochi's so I emailed the breeder to ask if it was natural, and she said yes. She had kept the whole litter natural because she had a buyer in Europe who was going to get first choice and planned to show the dog so it could not have a docked tail. Yay for her and me!!!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I know many working dogs had docked tails to signify their working status because working dogs were legally under a different status than pet dogs in some European countries.


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

Doberman tails are just weird. Hadn't given poodle tails much thought at all.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I do like the look of it, but Peggy’s tail has always bothered her. No way to know if that was due to the docking. To be safe, I’d prefer our next poodle have a natural tail. But it’s unlikely to be in my top five criteria (and might actually interfere with some of that criteria).


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I do like the look of it, but Peggy’s tail has always bothered her. No way to know if that was due to the docking. To be safe, I’d prefer our next poodle have a natural tail. But it’s unlikely to be in my top five criteria (and might actually interfere with some of that criteria).


Sometimes a dog will get what's called a dock neuroma, which is a knot of nerve tissue at the end. Sometimes, the tail is cut through a vertebra instead of between them. Both can be surgically fixed.


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