# Counter Surfing!



## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

My inquisitive 6 month old Axel has apparently discovered the delightful wonderland called the kitchen counter.

This morning while pouring a cup of coffee I heard an unusual click click sound and turned around to find my darling Boy standing there with paws on the counter Ack!! I told him Off and he immediately got down. 

How can I reliably teach him this is NOT acceptable? With my previous spoos I used the "can trap" ( stacking empty soda cans on the counter which come crashing down when curious paws touch them). However I have been only using positive reinforcement with him and concerned that method might be too harsh.

I would like to hear what others have used to cure this issue


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I think you are going to get a variety of ideas. What you do with puppies will stay with them. So you have to come up with a game plan and stick to it. When my dogs start looking for treats in the kitchen, they get banned from the kitchen. You can put them in a down stay next to the kitchen and just chase them out when they come in.

You only want to use positive rewards, but I believe instead of just saying "off", I would yell it and run at them waving my hands. That might be too negative for you, but it is just noise and posturing to let them know this is NOT ACCEPTABLE. 

If you want them to come into the kitchen while you are preparing food, then pick a spot out of the way and direct them there all the time. 

You also don't want to leave any food on the counters in the kitchen to reward them when you are not in the room. I might even gate off the kitchen when you are not around to prevent them "checking out the counters".

Just some ideas to consider.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Axeldog said:


> My inquisitive 6 month old Axel has apparently discovered the delightful wonderland called the kitchen counter.
> 
> This morning while pouring a cup of coffee I heard an unusual click click sound and turned around to find my darling Boy standing there with paws on the counter Ack!! I told him Off and he immediately got down.
> 
> ...


I too would like to hear what others have done...oh wait I've probably heard it all. I've tried everything that isn't negative reinforcement and had no success myself. My dogs have never been allowed to counter surf and are not allowed in the kitchen during meal times. I have just resolved to have spotless counters, which I like anyway. My sisters both have dogs that tried it once, they were firm, and the dog never did it again. So those trainable dogs are out there!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Do whatever you can to nip it in the bud. Lily has been a notorious counter surfer. Since it is a self rewarding behavior it is very hard to extinguish once the dog has gotten a treasure off the kitchen counter or out of a waste basket. I doubt sweetness about it will work. I have tried mouse traps, stacked cans and pans. The only outcome that has worked has been keeping things off the counters. She still looks all the time.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

from every post i have read here on counter surfing, i don't think positive reinforcement works. if there were a positive reinforcement method that did work, it would be widely known at pf. 

if the method you used with other dogs worked (the can trap), i would try it. imo - and only imo - counter surfing is not just annoying to the owner. it can be dangerous to the dog if, for example, there are items sometimes left on counters that dogs should not eat. for example, i tend to leave things like chocolate, aspirin and other medications, etc., out. not good, i know, but i have never had a dog that could access them.

so let me tell you how i stopped my dog from chewing my shoes. he was about six months old and i caught him with one side of a pair of leather clogs. i took it away and said "no" firmly. but i knew he would end up going back for it. so i waited. sure enough, there he was, so proud of himself when i advanced upon him. this time, i got down on all fours, took the clog away and bared my teeth, got in his face and growled at him. now granted my dog was probably not the most courageous guy around. but he never touched any of my shoes again. so i guess that was positive punishment. frankly, i never laid a finger on him, and i did not and do not consider what i did harsh. it was one more lesson that enabled my dog to be welcome in anyone's home and that was well worth a growl!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Patk, you were claiming the shoes as your own. We don't have to be harsh to be top dog in our "pack." Dogs read our body language, our walk, our facial expressions, and the sounds we make. Sometimes I think we don't even need to use words.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

you know the claim that dogs don't generalize? well my dog never touched any of my things after that. and when i moved in with my mother to take care of her, he never touched any of her things, either. some dogs do generalize...


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Thank you all so much! This is such a great forum!

Point taken regarding the safety concern. We tend to be a little forgetful now and then,so while we usually keep the counter clean there are times when doggy temptations are within easy reach

Also, point taken about lack of efficacy with positive reinforcement in this type of situation. I want it to stop and need to get it done before he actually succeeds in getting a jackpot

So, we will start with the can trap. We will also implement the policy of him going to "a spot" when we are preparing food. I love that idea! Will make maneuvering around our small kitchen easier too.

Thanks all


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Axeldog*: I know this is a vexing problem for many dogs owners. Just sharing my personal experience here and offering encouragement. I have an agile, 17.75" mpoo who can _easily_ reach the kitchen (and bathroom) counters, but doesn't. I attribute this to early intervention and patient, consistent training. Chagall has also been trained to go to his "place" in the kitchen during meal prep and willingly obliges. When he was being trained as a youngster our countertops were kept showroom clean. (We are happily long since back to clutter!) 

Since I'm puttering around the kitchen right now I made a quick video to show you my poodle doesn't mess with things on the counter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyx1uBOzadI
Chagall (age 5) enjoys free run of our home, along with our family members' and friends' homes, whether anyone is there watching him or not. We have no issues with counter surfing whatsoever.

The best advice I got from the start was strict environmental control, and consistent training. Good for you for getting on top of this with your pup! Good luck with your training, and remember to clear the decks for now at least.:clover:

These are some training resources I found helpful.
Tutorial: Solving Counter Surfing- Clicker Dog Training - YouTube
http://www.guidedogs.com/site/DocServer/GDB-training-secrets-counter-surfing.pdf


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Awwww! Chagall, I love you! 

Chagall's mom: I watched your video twice just now. I just love your boy. His endearing face watching you as you talk to him, being so good and attentive and WELL behaved, nose wiggling while you moved the food. Just want to hug him 

Well, I can dream about the day we get Axel to that level. We are working on it and enjoying the process. 

I'll check out the other links you provided. Thanks bunches.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Axeldog said:


> Awwww! Chagall, I love you!
> 
> Chagall's mom: I watched your video twice just now. I just love your boy. His endearing face watching you as you talk to him, being so good and attentive and WELL behaved, nose wiggling while you moved the food. Just want to hug him
> 
> ...


Just want to share two other links that may help you.
Counter Surfing is an All Too-Frequent Dog Behavior Issue for Many Dog Owners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEeS2dPpPtA
And to_ thank you _for your sweet compliments on Chagall.  Which (inadvertently!) opened the door for me to make you one more video to show you how effective early "leave it" training can be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBGLxWg5-v8 Don't feel obliged to watch it. (But if you do, rest assured I sanitize the floor after he eats the chicken neck. ) :nod: Just want you to feel inspired to train early to _prevent_ a counter surfing problem. I have several friends' spoos who visit us who are just_ way_ too proficient at it!


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

Counter surfing as all have stated has to be nipped in the bud. Due to issues concerning my little human. I could not use anything with loud noises. After consulting with the vet after Rhett turned on the stove... I got an e collar... Now before anyone gets upset over the use of such a device understand it was a matter of safety of the my family. I put it on him and only used the vibrate mode twice and once one the lowest "zap" setting. He has never so much has nosed the counter. He is now 2 years old. If he starts to get pushy as "teenagers" do, all I have to do is set the controller where he can see it. Calms him down instantly, he does not even wear the collar part of the system. Did I like it? No. Did it work? Yes!!! Remember to keep an open mind when dealing with this issue.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sophia yin once said she would use such a collar if it would save the dog's life. i think saving your family as well is a more than valid reason. there are members here who have used e collars for training a deaf dog (that others said would have to be destroyed) and s&r dogs.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Rhett'smom said:


> Counter surfing as all have stated has to be nipped in the bud. Due to issues concerning my little human. I could not use anything with loud noises. After consulting with the vet after Rhett turned on the stove... I got an e collar... Now before anyone gets upset over the use of such a device understand it was a matter of safety of the my family. I put it on him and only used the vibrate mode twice and once one the lowest "zap" setting. He has never so much has nosed the counter. He is now 2 years old. If he starts to get pushy as "teenagers" do, all I have to do is set the controller where he can see it. Calms him down instantly, he does not even wear the collar part of the system. Did I like it? No. Did it work? Yes!!! Remember to keep an open mind when dealing with this issue.


First,* Rhett'smom*, know I come in peace. eace2: I'm not _at all _interested in inflaming the discussion or in anyone else doing so. Okay, now to the meat of the matter...

We agree about nipping counter surfing in the bud, it can indeed be a very dangerous behavior. In your case, Rhett turned the stove on. (I've actually heard of dogs doing that before!) And there are other perils, like the dog ingesting something found while 'surfing' that can make it sick, or worse. A friend of ours dog gobbled up some human medicine left on the kitchen counter and was gravely ill as a result. Anyhow, I am just wondering what you may have tried early on in Rhett's training to get ahead of this unwanted behavior? My approach, and what worked for me with Chagall was to teach "leave it," "go to your place/mat" and "four-on-the-floor" in the kitchen. When friends visit with their counter surfing dogs I simply control the environment; their dogs are barred (I am a mean hostess!):mad2: from my kitchen. Somewhere I have photos of a _very_ glum looking spoo peeking into my kitchen from the foyer where he's in a down/stay.:sad: My interest in discussing this with you is to learn what you may have tried but didn't have success with. It might help others along the way to refine their approaches. I'm so glad we "moms" can talk this way!


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

No offense taken... I did pm you with a detailed explanation... I did it that way for privacy due to a pending adoption to protect my little miss (human child). 
All of my gang with the exception of that instance have been trained/ training with positive reinforcement. Not a easy task with 3 very smart cute poodles who seem to plot who tries something naughty for the first time. Smart rascals they are with horns holding up their halos at times.... Lol


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Got your PM, *Rhett'smom*, thanks! Very glad all are safe and happy in your home. And oh yeah, poodles come with a hellion gene or two!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk said:


> sophia yin once said she would use such a collar if it would save the dog's life. i think saving your family as well is a more than valid reason. there are members here who have used e collars for training a deaf dog (that others said would have to be destroyed) and s&r dogs.


Ian Dunbar would also use one if the dog's life was at stake.


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

Yep hellion genes for sure!!! But the angelic faces make up for the trouble they get into


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Just a small update, and again thanks to everyone for your helpful suggestions. 

I am finding that the mere act of keeping spotless kitchen counters, and not leaving food there, "surprisingly" is seeming to make a big difference in Axel's interest in the counters. Imagine that!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Axeldog said:


> Just a small update, and again thanks to everyone for your helpful suggestions.
> 
> I am finding that the mere act of keeping spotless kitchen counters, and not leaving food there, "surprisingly" is seeming to make a big difference in Axel's interest in the counters. Imagine that!


*WAY TO GO!!* :clap2:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> Ian Dunbar would also use one if the dog's life was at stake.


This reminds me of one of my favourite Dr Dunbar quotations:

"To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
- A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
- A thorough understanding of learning theory.
- Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar."

Dr. Ian Dunbar


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh yes, he certainly would use an e collar only as a last resort. However more than once in person I have heard him say that if a shock collar was going to stop a behavior that otherwise would end a dog's life he would use it. His specific example of a situation where to do that is with a dog that is killing livestock. Unfortunately most people with dogs lack at least one of those three skills. Poor timing of corrections is the main reason most people don't succeed to well with cooersive training techniques.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Saw this thread continuing so I'm back with an additional thought.:typing:


Rhett'smom said:


> Remember to keep an open mind...


_Yup_, been there, done that!  When I wanted to "tweak" some of Chagall's behavior a while back, I turned to a highly skilled local dog trainer for assistance. Molly Sumner, CDBC, CPDT-KSA, CBATI, CWRI. Molly Sumner ? Kindred Companions LLC. Some of our loved ones are experiencing declining health and impaired mobility issues. :Cry: Their homes have steadily filled up with medical apparatus and a smorgasbord of prescriptions medications. I wanted, make that I NEEDED, to be _more_ certain about ensuring everyone's safety when visiting with Chagall. (He comes along at _their_ request and definitely adds a dose of happiness.) :dog:

Here's the part where I had to open _my_ mind. I had some VERY disappointing (ranging from exasperating to dwag-gone _awful!_) experiences with dog trainers in the past. I was none too keen about having another up-at-bat. _But_, safety concerns being so important, I revisited my thinking. I made an all-out effort to find a trainer I could comfortably work with. After researching the options, observing Molly in action, speaking with her at length as well as some of her students, I confidently signed on. And I AM SO GLAD I DID! Molly's training philosophy is to use only the most humane methods. Her techniques are designed to fit the individual dog's personality and temperament. She is also committed to never using fear, pain or intimidation in her training. Happily, she proved to offer just what we needed!

Anyhow, just wanted to share my own success story in the realm of open mindedness. Since I've been in a video-sharing mindset in this thread, here's a short one of Chagall's trainer. 
World Dog Trainers Transparency Challenge - Molly Sumner - YouTube


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

Good video!! As I think it has been stated before... Use what works for the individual circumstance. Which is a challenge to all dog owners to think and use all reasonable training methods to meet their goals.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Oh yes, he certainly would use an e collar only as a last resort. However more than once in person I have heard him say that if a shock collar was going to stop a behavior that otherwise would end a dog's life he would use it. His specific example of a situation where to do that is with a dog that is killing livestock. Unfortunately most people with dogs lack at least one of those three skills. Poor timing of corrections is the main reason most people don't succeed to well with cooersive training techniques.


if you have a dog that is off leash and essentially untrained to respond to you in that situation, theory, knowledge and timing can be useless without some way of communicating effectively with the dog. offering a treat, telling a dog to leave it, etc, can be useless. a dog can and often will ignore the owner and do what gives it the most satisfaction. and even a "trained" dog can and will repeat self-rewarding behaviors when the owner is not present to stop it. depends on the dog. 

the main reason we use leashes on our dogs has to do with a dog's ability to simply ignore us. i know of no one at pf who opposes the use of leashes, whether in training or simply while out for a walk with his/her dog, yet many choose to ignore or gloss over the fact that they are aversives/coercives, as pointed out by ian dunbar. this is as puzzling to me as folks refusing to recognize that training captive (emphasis on captive) dolphins and orcas is actually done by using the implicit threat of starvation. i guess we need to tell ourselves nothing we do can possibly be described as other than good.

as rhett's mom says, use reasonable training methods as determined by individual circumstances. be gentle. be kind. but don't let doctrine and denial keep you from being effective. your dog's ability to live in society as a welcome member of your family depends on that.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Rhett'smom said:


> Good video!!


 Nice of you to say! 


Rhett'smom said:


> As I think it has been stated before... Use what works for the individual circumstance. Which is a challenge to all dog owners to think and use all reasonable training methods to meet their goals.


Yes indeed, we all follow our "inner compass" in making decisions on how to handle and train our poodles. I just decided to give mine a bath!:bathbaby: See you around the forum. :wave:


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

Enjoy the soapy bubbles!!!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Okay I may have found the solution to my dogs' counter surfing....this is silly, but Maddy is the most empathic dog I've ever had. So I had a discussion with her, face to snout, about how much it bothers me that she does it. She looked at me concernedly, and she didn't do it again today. I don't know but I think we turned a corner! Will let you know if it actually works! She's an amazing dog though, so I really don't count surfing as that big a deal in the big picture.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

So, Chagall? It can be done, eh? 

You are a very very good boy and so beautiful. No wonder your mommy speaks to you in such a loving voice. 

pr


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Indiana said:


> Okay I may have found the solution to my dogs' counter surfing....this is silly, but Maddy is the most empathic dog I've ever had. So I had a discussion with her, face to snout, about how much it bothers me that she does it. She looked at me concernedly, and she didn't do it again today. I don't know but I think we turned a corner! Will let you know if it actually works! She's an amazing dog though, so I really don't count surfing as that big a deal in the big picture.



I totally get it! I have serious conversations with my poodles too! They hate getting in trouble ! It works to "guilt them into behaving " LOL


These 2 literally SMILE at you when ya reprimand them! Apollo smiles only with one side and squints his eyes. Lou smiles with the front teeth and squints too! (Too cute!) And of course, I laugh hard when they do that ... So... It works! It's gets them "out of trouble"  

But yes I think they understand us no problem! So a serious talk, eye-to-eye, with a firm voice does it in our house)


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Ya it's funny. Aria and Indy look at me like, whaaa...??? But Maddy seems to understand. She is such a precious little girl. I'm so glad we got her, I can't imagine her in a normal pet home. Today I scissored her all over (growing out the Miami for winter) and I bathed them all and I told Maddy, you're beautiful but I need to turn your Miami into a Lamb for winter. She looked at me for a moment, and then laid down and let me do whatever. She's usually extremely active, so in some way I think she understands what I say.


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