# Am I missing anything?



## roxy25

yes


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Wow, lol, I had no idea there was a hunting poodle breeder here in utah! I'm going to have to email them some questions.

(About hunting, I'm not looking for another puppy!)


----------



## Keithsomething

unless there are some diseases ((I didn't check PHR)) in their lines I don't think you missed anything
they seem to do what everyone wants in a good breeder. Showing, hunting, all the health tests ect

not to mention the pretty dogs


----------



## Locket

Turns out they have bred and have more plans on breeding a dog that has produced pups with DM. Not okay in my books.


----------



## Keithsomething

can you tell me which dog it is? because all the testing I'm seeing says DM Clear
I just want to make sure I'm not reading anything wrong, or if I haven't seen that one yet


----------



## Locket

Trigger, such a handsome boy.


----------



## Feralpudel

Fluffyspoos said:


> (About hunting, I'm not looking for another puppy!)


Do you know about the hunting poodle list on Yahoo? 

HuntingPoodle : This list will be limited to the discussion of poodle field training. The field training of poodles encompases other activitie

I'm not on that list, but there are some friendly folks there.


----------



## Keithsomething

has he produced pups with it or pups that were carriers for it? 

because from what I'm reading about DM its like VWD if one parent is clear and the other is a carrier the pups may be carriers 
because Triggers DM test is normal 

OFA: Display OFA Records

if I'm understanding this wrong can someone explain it to me further?


----------



## Locket

Feralpudel said:


> Do you know about the hunting poodle list on Yahoo?
> 
> HuntingPoodle : This list will be limited to the discussion of poodle field training. The field training of poodles encompases other activitie
> 
> I'm not on that list, but there are some friendly folks there.


Wow, awesome! Thank you!!

I'm not looking for a poodle to hunt with, but I want to find a breeder that works their dogs in the field as I feel that is a vital part of the poodle breed.


----------



## bigpoodleperson

If im doing my math right, he was bred at pretty much a year old according to his offsprings birthdate on OFA. I know he is cardiac clear, but didnt he sire chickychats litter with two heart problem puppies?


----------



## NOLA Standards

*Hunting Poodles*

Sorry, do not know the Harmony Mounting People or their Dogs.

I do know Angie at Louters and am copying her latest brag and news

News from Louter Creek Hunting Poodles

"Cooper" achieved his (UKC) Hunting Retriever Championship and is the FIRST RED HRCH Standard Poodle, 9th Standard Poodle in history! He is now...
HRCH Southern Standards Red Creole SH WCX

He achieved his last Q leg needed for his (AKC) Senior Title at the MTARC on May 23, 2010 and earned his First Master Q leg first time out the day before! 


"Layla" also achieved another Senior Q leg and is now half way to her Senior Title. 

We will be breeding a litter in the fall, serious inquirers are welcomed.

Angie & Rich Louter
Louter Creek Hunting Poodles
Preserving The "Standard" In The Field

They are in Georgia.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## Lori Horst

*Trigger*

It is am absolute lie that Trigger has produced a pup with DM (none of my dogs have as I test for that). Trigger is DNA clear for this disease so it is impossible for him to produce a dog that has it. 

If there were a genetic issue with any of my dogs, I would be well aware of it (and most likely, so would all owners of Harmony Mountain poodles) because not only do I stand behind my dogs by offering an all-inclusive genetic health guarantee, but I have a Yahoo group available to each and every Harmony Mountain poodle owner.

This lie is not in the spirit of this group. As I joined today, I checked a box stating that I would not send hateful posts. How is lying about someone and their dogs not hateful? It is disappointing to join and then immediately read something so wrong about me and my very loveable and wonderful, Trigger.

I am a believer in turning the other cheek, but I have my limits. This is absolute slander and something I won't tolerate again from you.

Lori Horst
Harmony Mountain Hunting Pudels
Dark Red, Silver, White, Blue Hunting Poodles


----------



## Lori Horst

*Trigger*

Again, I don't know who you are, but Trigger did produce ONE pup with Paris (Lucky Poodles) with a heart problem. I took him to a "cardiac specialist" (not a "practitioner") the very next week and his heart was normal. He has not produced any other pups with a heart problem.

As a responsible breeder, I have contacted the woman who owns the pup with the heart problem asking her to post on PHR (that hasn't occurred to my knowledge).

As for breeding, I will not breed a dog until all testing is complete and there are tests that will not be accepted by OFA until the dog is at least a year old. I don't remember his exact age at first breeding, but I know it was sometime after his first birthday because he was CHIC'd.

Again, disappointing that I join and find now two lies spoken about my dog within just a couple of hours of joining the forum.

This forum should be about sharing and caring about one another, not land blasting without proof.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> Again, I don't know who you are, but Trigger did produce ONE pup with Paris (Lucky Poodles) with a heart problem. I took him to a "cardiac specialist" (not a "practitioner") the very next week and his heart was normal. He has not produced any other pups with a heart problem.
> 
> As a responsible breeder, I have contacted the woman who owns the pup with the heart problem asking her to post on PHR (that hasn't occurred to my knowledge).
> 
> As for breeding, I will not breed a dog until all testing is complete and there are tests that will not be accepted by OFA until the dog is at least a year old. I don't remember his exact age at first breeding, but I know it was sometime after his first birthday because he was CHIC'd.
> 
> Again, disappointing that I join and find now two lies spoken about my dog within just a couple of hours of joining the forum.
> 
> This forum should be about sharing and caring about one another, not land blasting without proof.


I'm sooooooo glad you joined and clarified things. I've gotten so tired of the breeder bashing threads that I'm getting ready to move on to another forum. I'm too busy training my 2 Spoos for their JH to read this stuff anymore. Cheers.


----------



## Lori Horst

Too bad you don't live closer as Rich loves to train with others. There is always so much we can learn from each other by sharing in a positive way. Good luck with your training and tests!


----------



## Keithsomething

I don't think Locket meant any malice behind the DM thing
perhaps she was given misinformation?


----------



## Lori Horst

Thanks for telling me that, Keith. I have always been a turn-the-cheek person, but Rich and I work so hard at trying to do the right things with and for our dogs and poodles in general (this even includes trying to be helpful not only to those who purchase our pups, but to others as well). I didn't expect to join a group and immediately have to defend our kennel.

It is a real disappointment. Locket, whoever you are, I am not mad at you and hope to quickly move beyond the mistruths spoken about Trigger.


----------



## bigpoodleperson

Lori, thankyou for coming on and clearing some things up. Could you please explain why you bred Trigger when he was only a year old? How come you didnt wait until his hips were done at 2? Thanks.


----------



## Locket

Thanks for clearing this up. I was given this information, and should have researched it further before jumping to conclusions. Sorry for the misinformation.


----------



## Lori Horst

His hips were done (PennHIP). All of his testing was complete prior to breeding (you have to have hips done to get a dog CHIC'd).

May I ask who you are and what your kennel name is? Looks like most people use Avatars rather than just letting members of the forum see who they are.


----------



## bigpoodleperson

I am not a breeder, and do not have a kennel. Does this mean i cant ask questions?  Since this is a poodle forum i would expect to see peoples poodles at their avatar, not their faces. It is not a matter of hiding, but of showing off our beloved pets.


----------



## jak

Lori Horst said:


> Again, I don't know who you are, but Trigger did produce ONE pup with Paris (Lucky Poodles) with a heart problem. I took him to a "cardiac specialist" (not a "practitioner") the very next week and his heart was normal. He has not produced any other pups with a heart problem.
> 
> As a responsible breeder, I have contacted the woman who owns the pup with the heart problem asking her to post on PHR (that hasn't occurred to my knowledge).
> 
> As for breeding, I will not breed a dog until all testing is complete and there are tests that will not be accepted by OFA until the dog is at least a year old. I don't remember his exact age at first breeding, but I know it was sometime after his first birthday because he was CHIC'd.
> 
> Again, disappointing that I join and find now two lies spoken about my dog within just a couple of hours of joining the forum.
> 
> This forum should be about sharing and caring about one another, not land blasting without proof.





bigpoodleperson said:


> If im doing my math right, he was bred at pretty much a year old according to his offsprings birthdate on OFA. I know he is cardiac clear, but didnt he sire chickychats litter with two heart problem puppies?


Please reread this statement made about Trigger Re:Heart Problems in his puppies.

It is not a lie that he has produce two puppies with Heart Problems... It may have been a one off thing... but not a lie.


----------



## jak

Lori Horst said:


> His hips were done (PennHIP). All of his testing was complete prior to breeding (you have to have hips done to get a dog CHIC'd).
> 
> May I ask who you are and what your kennel name is? *Looks like most people use Avatars rather than just letting members of the forum see who they are.*


If you took your time to look, you would see that there is a face to names thread

Ok, cool. All of Trigger's testing was done when he was bred 

But, I thought hips weren't fully developed until the dog is 2 ??


----------



## Feralpudel

jak said:


> But, I thought hips weren't fully developed until the dog is 2 ??


OFA won't certify hips until the dog is at least two years old. The validity of OFA versus Pennhip is a whole other discussion...

Hip issues aside, I like to see breeders, especially standard breeders, wait a while before breeding. There are so many spoo nasties out there now that we don't have good testing for, e.g., AD and SA...why not wait for the dog to grow up and make sure he stays healthy? What's the hurry with the boys in particular?


----------



## Lori Horst

You should ask questions. That is how we all learn. It expanding truths to the point of no longer being true or even saying things that have no basis in truth that can be hurtful. We all grow by asking questions. I've asked many dumb ones in my life, which hopefully helped others because they were too afraid to ask.

I only asked who you are and what kennel you are from so I know who I am talking to. For me, that is one of the joys of participating in a forum--you meet and get to know people.


----------



## Lori Horst

Great idea. OFA has determined that on average, hips are fully developed at 2 years of age. PennHIP's method allows for predictive testing based on a distraction index (or how far the ball can be pulled from a socket). They basically measure that space and can determine, based on the amount of space, what the dog's hips will be like long-term. Like OFA, they do tell what the hips are like now as well.

As for breeding Trigger just after a year, I don't feel bad about that. I research the health behind the dogs I breed and have felt good about every breeding I have done. We all deal with issues in our lines as the Wycliffe influence exists in all of them (or at least about 99% of them). Since we don't have DNA tests for everything, all we can do is to try to watch our pairings based on what a certain dog's ancestors have produced (and even then, we are reliant upon owners of dogs to post on PHR).

I understand what Feralpudel said about later onset diseases, but Addisons and SA may not even show up in a dog until they are 5-6 or even older. Does that mean we should all wait that long and then risk the health of the pups and the bitch? Would love to hear others' takes on an acceptable maximum age to breed. For me, a female should have her last litter by 6.


----------



## Winnow

jak said:


> But, I thought hips weren't fully developed until the dog is 2 ??


The OFA way is not the ONLY way to do hips, in Scandinavia you can do them after the dog turns one.
Only a few breeds have to be 18 months old before there hips are done.

And get results that are valid


----------



## Lori Horst

Do their methods of x-raying hips vary much from OFA or PennHIP? I remember the first time on got onto PHR, I was blown away by all of the accepted hip registries throughout the world. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Winnow

Lori Horst said:


> Do their methods of x-raying hips vary much from OFA or PennHIP? I remember the first time on got onto PHR, I was blown away by all of the accepted hip registries throughout the world. Thanks for sharing.


They use the same methods as OFA for taking the x-rays.

We send our pics to Norway where a very few Vet's do the readings.

They are grated A, B, C, D and so on. A begin excellent or the best


----------



## Lori Horst

Thanks. Your Avatar pup is adorable, by the way.


----------



## Lori Horst

The two heart problems is a lie, unless I was never told. Still curious who I am speaking with. This is what I mean about expanding (or stretching) the truth. It is hurtful. I am a big girl and have been through worse in my life, but I'm sure that is not in the spirit of the poodleforum creator's intentions for the group.

If he/she reads the posts, set me straight if I am wrong in thinking that this group should be about sharing and caring in positive ways. If I am wrong, I will move on as life is too short to knit-pick and back-stab.


----------



## flyingduster

Lori, none of the people you're talkign to here are breeders or have kennels or show or anything, we're all pet dog owners! There ARE a few breeders on here, but not many, and none that you're chatting with now. Check out the faces to names thread to see photos of most people though!


----------



## Lori Horst

Thanks. I have read through some old posts (not many), and some of them confirm my desire to make the point that negativity takes a life of its own once someone starts it. It becomes more fitting to say "two" problems, instead of "one," etc., then friction develops and people become angry/mad. I am not angry or mad, was just trying to make a point.

I have probably learned more from the people who have purchased my pups then I have from breeders, although I place a high value on input from both. If a forum becomes too negative, those that we could learn a great deal from may become afraid to express thoughts, ideas, etc. for fear of retribution. If we keep it positive, as hard as it may be at times, everyone may be surprised who comes out of the woodwork to share (and what we may learn from it).

I will shut up now.


----------



## plumcrazy

Lori Horst said:


> I will shut up now.


Please don't!!  I'm in the camp of those who have a LOT to learn! I am not a breeder and I can't/don't give my advice to those who are (how can I when I don't have the experience on best practices??) but I do enjoy looking at (and owning) pretty poodles! 

Please continue to share what you know so those of us who are learning can learn all we can! 

Thanks!!

Barb


----------



## jak

flyingduster said:


> Lori, none of the people you're talkign to here are breeders or have kennels or show or anything, we're all pet dog owners! There ARE a few breeders on here, but not many, and none that you're chatting with now. Check out the faces to names thread to see photos of most people though!


Hehe!! You forgot somone FD 

!!

Winnow is a breeder in Iceland


----------



## Lori Horst

Thanks, Barb. I guess I don't mean that I will permanently keep my mouth shut, I have just said what I was trying to say in my first post (just took me a few to find the words). 

Pretty redhead on your Avatar!


----------



## Keithsomething

Lori I think its a great deal of misinformation being given, you shouldn't leave or "shut up" because of it ^_^ just reinform and allow those to know they were given false info :]


----------



## Lori Horst

Thanks, Keith.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> Would love to hear others' takes on an acceptable maximum age to breed. For me, a female should have her last litter by 6.


On a British Poodle forums some bitches have been bred successfully past six years of age. Usually it was a second breeding though. One gal said that in the 60's her family's poodle was accidently bred at nine years of age and did fine. But that was forty years ago, and I think the breed was in better shape then. 

I think I'd have to consider the condition of the bitch. A hunting bitch in hard condition is going to bounce back and maintain fitness better than a couch potato. And I'd have to consider the uterus. Has this bitch cycled every 6 months for the past six years? Some only cycle annually. The attitude of the bitch would also come into play. Is she still upbeat and raring to go train or is she starting to slow down. Does she like having puppies?

t may also depend on what traits your breeding for. I have a book called The New Guide to Breeding Old Fashioned Working Dogs, by Guy Ormiston (sp?), he researched the long term breeding programs done by Guide Dogs for the Blind and found that the best % of working pups came from the first breedings when the bitches were 5 years of age or younger. I believe the author breeds/ judges/works Coonhounds.


----------



## bigpoodleperson

> Would love to hear others' takes on an acceptable maximum age to breed. For me, a female should have her last litter by 6.


I agree that older females should not be bred. As i said, im not a breeder, but i wish more breeders would wait to breed their dogs. Esp, the males it seems ok to breed at a year old. Not to get into a color debate, but the only males that *ive* seen be bred young are red males. Again, that is *my* observation. 
Im sure it is a balancing act with not wanting to breed too young or too old. Is there really such a thing as breeding a male when he is "too old" though? There are so many problems in the breed that it would be nice to see how the dog (and their littermates) develope. What would happen if you bred a male at 1, the puppies from that litter were bred at 1-2 years, and say alot of the dogs bloated or developed addisons around 4 years. There are alot of puppies in the ground already before a health problem really had a chance to show. Seriously though, what is the harm in waiting with a male besides "loosing money" from the sire-ings?


----------



## Lori Horst

The book sounds interesting/intriguing. I will have to look it up on Amazon. Your thoughts on all of this are logical. I guess I always think of humans where the risk of producing down syndrome children, etc. increases with age.

The 9 year old bitch that was bred had to of been in great shape (and I agree that the breed had less problems in the 60s then it does now).


----------



## Locket

Lori Horst said:


> Would love to hear others' takes on an acceptable maximum age to breed. *For me, a female should have her last litter by 6.*


Darn!! I would love a pup out of Bear, but I guess she'll be retired by the time I'm ready for a pup....plus I don't know if you'll ever sell to me after what I said


----------



## spoospirit

Lori Horst said:


> Thanks. I have read through some old posts (not many), and some of them confirm my desire to make the point that negativity takes a life of its own once someone starts it. It becomes more fitting to say "two" problems, instead of "one," etc., then friction develops and people become angry/mad. I am not angry or mad, was just trying to make a point.
> 
> I have probably learned more from the people who have purchased my pups then I have from breeders, although I place a high value on input from both. If a forum becomes too negative, those that we could learn a great deal from may become afraid to express thoughts, ideas, etc. for fear of retribution. If we keep it positive, as hard as it may be at times, everyone may be surprised who comes out of the woodwork to share (and what we may learn from it).
> 
> I will shut up now.


_I didn't say hello yet, Lori, but welcome to the forum. 

I am with Barb on this and you are so right with what you are saying. You have much to offer the rest of us who are still on the learning curve. I do hope you stay and participate. I would hate to loose a member like you over nastiness. 

I am here to learn and can do without all the drama too. I don't have a problem with opposing opinions but really dislike to read hateful posts.

Just so you know who you are talking to...my sister and I are both members here, we have five standards. She has bred and shown Brittany dogs and championed with a bred-by. We are new to the Standard Poodle. We have a kennel name and it is Wispynook Poodles. 

Hope to be hearing more from you._


----------



## Lori Horst

I'm sure that every breeder is different. I will breed a male younger than I would breed a female as I believe a bitch needs to be fully developed before breeding. Males don't carry pups and don't deliver them. 

I think that a breeder just needs to do their research into the health of a dog's ancestors and make sure the pairings present the least amount of risk possible. For example, if a dog has a report case of Addisons in its line within the past 3 generations, I would pair him with a bitch that doesn't. Still, there are no guarantees, but we can try. I also would not breed a dog before all genetic testing is completed.

There is a lot to breeding (and a lot of expense). In addition to genetic testing, we travel with our dogs, entering them in various activities. We have been breeding standards for 4 years (other breeds longer than that). We have yet to make a profit at all because it all goes back. Is a lack of funds a consideration in our decision to breed young? No (at least not yet), but we both have non-dog jobs so we are not living off the backs of our dogs.

Trigger intrigued me because of the foreign dogs in his line. He presented something different to the small pool of reds in America. There was, perhaps, a certain amount of impatience on my part to use him to see what he could contribute. It seems like fault will always be found as it relates to him (he is a nice boy), but I have no guilt about my decision. It certainly wasn't thoughtless.

I don't know one breeder who is totally careless (although I'm sure they exist somewhere).


----------



## Lori Horst

I just tried to get onto your site (Dianne or Debbie?). it will be nice when completed. Look forward to getting to know you better too.


----------



## Lori Horst

I am not at all mad at you. Just trying to set the record straight and do what I can to allow myself and others to feel safe on the forum.

Do you live in Utah? We are still in Phoenix, AZ, but own property in Southern Utah and will move there eventually. If you are ever in Phoenix, give us a call. Bear would love to meet you. She greets people with a smile. Or, better yet, you can come early and watch her work (so fun).


----------



## Trillium

spoospirit said:


> _I didn't say hello yet, Lori, but welcome to the forum.
> 
> I am with Barb on this and you are so right with what you are saying. You have much to offer the rest of us who are still on the learning curve. I do hope you stay and participate. I would hate to loose a member like you over nastiness.
> 
> I am here to learn and can do without all the drama too. I don't have a problem with opposing opinions but really dislike to read hateful posts.
> 
> 
> Hope to be hearing more from you._



Well said spoospirit!! Welcome to the forum. I've been admiring Trigger for quite a while now. He's a lovely boy.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> The book sounds interesting/intriguing. I will have to look it up on Amazon. Your thoughts on all of this are logical. I guess I always think of humans where the risk of producing down syndrome children, etc. increases with age.


Another intersting article floating around can be found at http://www.dogstuff.info/of_peas_and_pups.html This was written in 1963 and has been floating around some breed clubs for while so maybe you know of it. But for those who don't, it explains basic genetics for dog breeders; and more importantly for working dog breeders, outlines a plan for improving/maintaining working traits in the German Shorthair Pointer.


----------



## cbrand

My concern would be hips in some of their dogs. According to their planned breeding page, they are going to repeat the breeding between Misty and Titan. Both dogs are OFA Fairs and have pretty high Pennhip scores. Their stud dog Ace has a Pennhip score over .60 in one hip which according to Pennhip's own site is a non-breeding score. It looks like they are planning to breed him to Bear who herself has Pennhip scores in the .50s. I personally think this is risky.


----------



## cbrand

Lori Horst said:


> As for breeding Trigger just after a year, I don't feel bad about that. I research the health behind the dogs I breed and have felt good about every breeding I have done.


How did you research? Did you actually talk to breeders or just look on PHR? I ask because that Russian dog behind Trigger was here in Colorado and I seem to remember some sort of health controversy surrounding him.


----------



## Locket

Lori Horst said:


> I am not at all mad at you. Just trying to set the record straight and do what I can to allow myself and others to feel safe on the forum.
> 
> Do you live in Utah? We are still in Phoenix, AZ, but own property in Southern Utah and will move there eventually. If you are ever in Phoenix, give us a call. Bear would love to meet you. She greets people with a smile. Or, better yet, you can come early and watch her work (so fun).


Unfortunately I'm quite far from AZ and Utah. I'm in Ontario Canada 

Cbrand, do you know what percentile a 0.50 or higher pennhip scoring for a standard poodle would be?


----------



## Lori Horst

In Trigger's case, I researched PHR and talked to his breeder. I haven't heard anything about his Russian grandpa. What did you hear? I know they are still offering stud service to him (maybe only available through frozen semen at this point as I can't remember how old he is).


----------



## Lori Horst

If you are referencing Bear's scores (or basically my entire silver/white line), she is 40th percentile. Her laxities are 0.52/0.54.


----------



## Lori Horst

Ace would be the greatest risk, although he has a lot of good behind him on his mom's side. The vet who did the PennHIP xrays went over them with me. He has very good ball/joint conformation. It was the laxity that makes him look bad. I will have him re-xrayed OFA at 2. He runs and jumps like a gazelle.

I don't worry at all about Titan or Misty. Their hips may be fair, but even their fairer hipped ancestors are still not dysplastic (per conversations with some of the owners of the dogs). Titan also has a lot of excellent behind him.

It doesn't seem to me that any breeding of standard poodles is without risk. The only clean PHR verticals I have seen are of dogs that were dead before it's creation or come from obscure lines--nothing wrong with the latter (in fact, I've been searching them out).


----------



## Purley

Lori Horst said:


> the Wycliffe influence .


Can someone please explain the above? I have heard of Wycliffe, but I'd like to know what the influence is.

Thanks.


----------



## Lori Horst

Nearly every poodle (probably like 99% of them) alive has Wycliffe dog(s), or dogs from Wycliffe dogs in its line somewhere. They were highly inbred. I'm sure she had no idea how line breeding to the extent that she did would affect the breed down the road. It is the opinion of many breeders now that we should seek to breed our dogs to other dogs with a very low Wycliffe influence (or extremely limited Wycliffe dogs) in addition to watching our co-efficiences of inbreeding. Dr. John Armstrong's work is worth the read as it is doubtful any of us can do as well explaining it all as he did: Inbreeding.

This is not a slam to people who own dogs with a high Wycliffe influence. I have one.


----------



## cbrand

Locket said:


> Unfortunately I'm quite far from AZ and Utah. I'm in Ontario Canada
> 
> Cbrand, do you know what percentile a 0.50 or higher pennhip scoring for a standard poodle would be?


I don't know for sure. Lori could tell us more because it would be listed on her Pennhip report. A Pennhip report shows the DI percentage as well as the Laxity Profile Ranking and will note the median DI for the breed as well as a comparison to other tested dogs of the same breed. i.e The tested dog has hips in the 80th percentile for the breed. Pennhip recommends breeding dogs in the 60th percentile or higher. This is because some breeds have generally poor hips and you can't simply go on numbers alone because there would be no dogs to breed. 

It is frustrating that Pennhip STILL does not have an open database. However, looking at the Pennhip data listed on OFA, it seemed like the median for that data would be in the .38 range (anyone want to hand plot it?). You can look at this by going to OFA, selecting Search Data and then filling in breed, variety and test you want to view.

Maybe I'm totally off and a DI of .60 would still be in the 60%. Most Pennhip scores I see for Poodles are in the .30-.40 range and I always though DIs in the .50s were high. Again, though, Lori could confirm what percentile it is.


----------



## Lori Horst

*Can't Wait to Read It*



Desiree said:


> Another intersting article floating around can be found at OF PEAS AND PUPS This was written in 1963 and has been floating around some breed clubs for while so maybe you know of it. But for those who don't, it explains basic genetics for dog breeders; and more importantly for working dog breeders, outlines a plan for improving/maintaining working traits in the German Shorthair Pointer.


Probably the biggest issue I deal with in searching for an outside silver with excellent hips is temperament. I haven't found one with great hips that has the temperament I require for my girls. I finally do have one in mind, but he is still young and testing is incomplete (not to mention he is quite far from me geographically speaking). 

I often wander if Rich and I are trying to focus too strongly on retrieve drive and a love of water (the latter being a big problem with poodles, as hunters can attest--although we have 3 now who have loved it from the time their eyes were open). It seems like I start with that, then go into genetic testing done on the dog, then talk temperament. I will not share the name of the dog, but the boy I absolutely fell in love with in pictures and genetics seen on paper, wasn't even allowed to be offleash with strangers near. That was a true let down for me because I had travelled quite a distance to meet him and had become excited at thoughts of how wonderfully he balanced weaknesses in my bitch--until that moment. 

Like all breeders, I want it all in the pups I produce, but it comes back to what is most important to us and our goals.

I have made quite a few breeder friends, some who have been breeding for 40+ years. I know that I will experience more health issues at some point. The heart problem in the one Trigger pup contracturally was the responsibility of the breeder of record (the dam's owner), although I immediately took Trigger in for testing. I gave her a reasonable amount of time to act on that issue, then obtained the pup's owner info from another source and contacted her myself requesting PHR entry. Breeders tell me I am headed for more, not because of this one issue with Trigger (and not even referencing Trigger himself), but rather because of where the breed as a whole is today.

In weighing all factors important to us, I feel that I do the best I can in creating my pairings, based on everything I know about the dog, its ancestors, the dog it is being bred to and its ancestors, etc. I don't want to produce dogs with dysplasia (our dogs work hard, and dysplasia would seem worse for a working dog), but I do feel as though I have done my due diligence on that and in weighing all things, that is the lesser of the evils I have to endure.

I just realized that I really got off point, I guess because of the hip discussion written previously in this thread. 

The method that I am now employing to select pups (outside of a pup that has retrieve drive--not talking prey drive as it is different--and loves water), is to choose the most robust for our breeding program (the one most lively, the one first to explore, etc), hoping this will be the healthiest pup.

I will read the link you sent Desiree and see if he also employs that.

Thanks for sharing it.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> The method that I am now employing to select pups (outside of a pup that has retrieve drive--not talking prey drive as it is different--and loves water), is to choose the most robust for our breeding program (the one most lively, the one first to explore, etc), hoping this will be the healthiest pup.


Here's a little from Guy Gregory Ormiston on The "USE" Breeding Formula:

"Regardless of the type of program you adopt, you should follow a 3 step formula to develop offspring from your program. You have to "use" your potential brood stock, then you must "select" your actual brood stock and , of course, "experiment" by breeding the mates you have selected. The sequence of those steps becomes critical. Some breeders select their brood stock from outward appearances, conduct their experimental cross and then select their offspring. That is wrong! Other breeders breed a bitch, take pick of the litter, then begin training the pup. This is also wrong!

Keep the acronym "USE" in your mind at all times when thinking of your breeding program. It is a 3 step procedure that should be followed with each new generation of your strain... ALWAYS USE THE SAME SEQUENCE: (1)USE, (2)SELECT, (3)EXPERIMENT."


I'm not saying he's right and your wrong I'm just putting his idea out there for consideration. Cheers.


----------



## Vibrant

Desiree said:


> Here's a little from Guy Gregory Ormiston on The "USE" Breeding Formula:
> 
> "Regardless of the type of program you adopt, you should follow a 3 step formula to develop offspring from your program. You have to "use" your potential brood stock, then you must "select" your actual brood stock and , of course, "experiment" by breeding the mates you have selected. The sequence of those steps becomes critical. Some breeders select their brood stock from outward appearances, conduct their experimental cross and then select their offspring. That is wrong! Other breeders breed a bitch, take pick of the litter, then begin training the pup. This is also wrong!
> 
> Keep the acronym "USE" in your mind at all times when thinking of your breeding program. It is a 3 step procedure that should be followed with each new generation of your strain... ALWAYS USE THE SAME SEQUENCE: (1)USE, (2)SELECT, (3)EXPERIMENT."
> 
> 
> I'm not saying he's right and your wrong I'm just putting his idea out there for consideration. Cheers.


The problem I see with this method is that you would have to have unlimited resources to keep, train and test entire litters!
So far in the past seven years, I have 'used' three potential foundation bitches....and I have yet to breed my first litter! Now my only intact standard poodle is a male....I'm working on the "use" with him, hopefully I'll get to the "select" and "experiment" part before I have a foot (or two) in the grave!!!


----------



## Lori Horst

Desiree said:


> Here's a little from Guy Gregory Ormiston on The "USE" Breeding Formula:
> 
> "Regardless of the type of program you adopt, you should follow a 3 step formula to develop offspring from your program. You have to "use" your potential brood stock, then you must "select" your actual brood stock and , of course, "experiment" by breeding the mates you have selected. The sequence of those steps becomes critical. Some breeders select their brood stock from outward appearances, conduct their experimental cross and then select their offspring. That is wrong! Other breeders breed a bitch, take pick of the litter, then begin training the pup. This is also wrong!
> 
> Keep the acronym "USE" in your mind at all times when thinking of your breeding program. It is a 3 step procedure that should be followed with each new generation of your strain... ALWAYS USE THE SAME SEQUENCE: (1)USE, (2)SELECT, (3)EXPERIMENT."
> 
> 
> I'm not saying he's right and your wrong I'm just putting his idea out there for consideration. Cheers.


Thanks, Desiree. I really need to find that book (can't get it through Dogwise or Amazon).


----------



## cbrand

Lori Horst said:


> In Trigger's case, I researched PHR and talked to his breeder. I haven't heard anything about his Russian grandpa. What did you hear? I know they are still offering stud service to him (maybe only available through frozen semen at this point as I can't remember how old he is).


It has been a while, but Passions Poodles used to have a web site. They bred Apricot Standards up in the Steamboat Lake area of Colorado (do they still?). I remember some sort of tirade on their web site, now long gone, about the Russian studs they bought and how they had been ripped off because the dogs were ill (Addisons?) or some such thing. 

Maybe not the same dog.


----------



## cbrand

Lori Horst said:


> If you are referencing Bear's scores (or basically my entire silver/white line), she is 40th percentile. Her laxities are 0.52/0.54.


I was actually talking about Ace's percentile, but Bear and Cali are good examples too. They are the offspring of Misty and Titan and you can see that their hips are looser overall that their mother's. So by breeding loose (+.50) to loose, the hips in the next generation got worse. Are they displastic? No, but you are riding a fine line. What will happen if you take Bear to Ace who has even looser hips (DI .60)? The greatest Poodle in the world can't work if it is dysplastic. 

It will be interesting to see what OFA says about Ace's hips.


----------



## Dogsinstyle

Passions quit breeding a few years ago. I think the stud in question they bought from Visions kennel. I remember there was a big bruhaha at the time.
Carole


----------



## cbrand

Vibrant said:


> The problem I see with this method is that you would have to have unlimited resources to keep, train and test entire litters!
> So far in the past seven years, I have 'used' three potential foundation bitches....and I have yet to breed my first litter! Now my only intact standard poodle is a male....I'm working on the "use" with him, hopefully I'll get to the "select" and "experiment" part before I have a foot (or two) in the grave!!!


Right. That method only really works if you have a full kennel of dogs to choose from. This is how the old time show kennels used to work but I'm not sure anyone wants to go back to the days of kennel breeding Poodles.

I imagine that the folks who use this method today mostly have kenneled hunting dogs.


----------



## Feralpudel

cbrand said:


> It is frustrating that Pennhip STILL does not have an open database. However, looking at the Pennhip data listed on OFA, it seemed like the median for that data would be in the .38 range (anyone want to hand plot it?). You can look at this by going to OFA, selecting Search Data and then filling in breed, variety and test you want to view.
> 
> Maybe I'm totally off and a DI of .60 would still be in the 60%. Most Pennhip scores I see for Poodles are in the .30-.40 range and I always though DIs in the .50s were high. Again, though, Lori could confirm what percentile it is.


This whole discussion got me interested in Pennhip versus OFA, as I am considering having my boy's hips done, and the vet I'm looking at can do either. I was also curious about median values and the distribution, and I found this article:

Distraction index as a risk factor for osteoarthritis associated with hip dysplasia in four large dog breeds<sup>*</sup>
Journal of Small Animal Practice
Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

They looked at 909 spoos in their database between 4 and 35 months old. *Mean* DI was .49, with a standard deviation of .13. Calculating percentile values from there would require assuming a normal distribution, which may not be the case. 

OK, I'll take my geek hat off now, LOL.


----------



## cbrand

Feralpudel said:


> They looked at 909 spoos in their database between 4 and 35 months old. *Mean* DI was .49, with a standard deviation of .13. Calculating percentile values from there would require assuming a normal distribution, which may not be the case.


So what does "Calculating percentile values from there would require assuming a normal distribution" mean?

So I hand plotted the median for Pennhip scores listed on OFA (right side only) and I can't believe it but my guess of DI .38 was right. 

Do you think that the mean is a better indicator than median. With the mean, doesn't the average get thrown off by high or low scores on either end?


----------



## Lori Horst

cbrand said:


> I was actually talking about Ace's percentile, but Bear and Cali are good examples too. They are the offspring of Misty and Titan and you can see that their hips are looser overall that their mother's. So by breeding loose (+.50) to loose, the hips in the next generation got worse. Are they displastic? No, but you are riding a fine line. What will happen if you take Bear to Ace who has even looser hips (DI .60)? The greatest Poodle in the world can't work if it is dysplastic.
> 
> It will be interesting to see what OFA says about Ace's hips.


Bear is not from Titan. We used an outside silver stud (also Fair hips) with Misty, who has one of the most endearing and wonderful temperaments I have ever seen in an intact male. Bear is the product of that. Cali is out of Misty and Titan. Cali's hips are better than her dad's and only slightly worse on one hip than her mom's, but I understand the point you are trying to make to me.

I see that Carol has joined the discussion (glad). We have had discussions about looser hips and temperament, and possible correlations with that. I am really beginning to think there is some truth to that (not just defending my dogs, but based on my searches and experiences). I will wait to breed Ace. I received two promised deposits for Misty X Titan's upcoming litter, so my two Fall litters have been decided (can't do 3--did that once with 2 of our own and 1 which I fostered for a woman who had an emergency situation at home--too much for this old gal).

I will read the other posts and links later. I am suppose to be working (LOL)!

Thanks to all for keeping me on my toes (love it).


----------



## Feralpudel

cbrand said:


> So what does "Calculating percentile values from there would require assuming a normal distribution" mean?
> 
> So I hand plotted the median for Pennhip scores listed on OFA (right side only) and I can't believe it but my guess of DI .38 was right.
> 
> Do you think that the mean is a better indicator than median. With the mean, doesn't the average get thrown off by high or low scores on either end?


So you know what a normal distribution, AKA "bell curve" looks like, right? Well, the data don't have to be shaped just that way--they can be lopsided, maybe have one really long tail on one side, have "fat" tails (more observations at the extremes than expected in a normal distribution). So if you're prepared to assume that you have a normal distribution, you can use the mean and SD to make statements along the lines of "two-thirds of the observations have DI values at or below x." Since the Pennhip folks have all of the data points, not just the mean and SD, they don't have to make assumptions--they can tell owners exactly where in the distribution their dog's DI value falls. 

Yes, the median is less influenced by extreme values than the mean. What I find *really* interesting about the OFA Pennhip data is that it appears that the better scores are more likely to get reported to OFA. Who knew, LOL. 

I reported the mean because that's what was reported in the Pennhip article (standard practice in articles to report mean and SD). Given the sample size and the fact that DI values can only be so big or so large, the median in the Pennhip database is probably close to the mean.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> Thanks, Desiree. I really need to find that book (can't get it through Dogwise or Amazon).


I don't know if it still available, I got my copy years ago.

Here is a link that has the author's address: 

Warning to all show folks, he slams show dogs/terriers pretty hard. If your sensitive don't go there. Just sayin'!

http://www.terrierman.com go to blogs then blog search (on the right), enter: guy gregory ormiston and it should pop up. 

Gotta go train the dogs before the skeeters get bad.


----------



## Desiree

Lori Horst said:


> Probably the biggest issue I deal with in searching for an outside silver with excellent hips is temperament. I haven't found one with great hips that has the temperament I require for my girls. I finally do have one in mind, but he is still young and testing is incomplete (not to mention he is quite far from me geographically speaking).


Yes, it's very difficult to find silvers with my desired temperament and excellent hips. I search for 2 1/2 years before a purchased my cream boy.


----------



## Lori Horst

cbrand said:


> So what does "Calculating percentile values from there would require assuming a normal distribution" mean?
> 
> So I hand plotted the median for Pennhip scores listed on OFA (right side only) and I can't believe it but my guess of DI .38 was right.
> 
> Do you think that the mean is a better indicator than median. With the mean, doesn't the average get thrown off by high or low scores on either end?


Our Kiss is 0.43/0.43 and is 60th percentile (she was just recently tested).


----------

