# Looking for a reputable breeder San Diego area



## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

jmar3298 said:


> Hey guys! I just made a decision to get a poodle. I am looking for a red smaller size toy poodle. I’d like to bring him with me to as many places as I could that’s why I prefer smaller. I just don’t know who to trust, and I don’t want to end up with a sick puppy or get scammed. I’m willing to drive to pick him up. Do you guys have any recommendations?


If you are not familiar with Poodles, you should first go to the website for PCA (Poodle Club of America) which is the national/parent breed club for Poodles. Since you are looking for a toy, familiarize yourself with the health tests that a responsible breeder should be doing, at a minimum, on their breeding dogs (both the bitch and stud) before they are bred. Health Concerns - The Poodle Club of America You can also look at the Breeder Referral listings to get started searching for good breeders that you can reach out to. PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America 

I will say that the demand for puppies is overwhelming right now. Many good breeders have waiting lists of a year or more.... If you are looking for a toy, where often a litter is 1 or 2 pups, and then further narrowing your options by wanting a red, you might need to be prepared to wait for quite some time for a good puppy from health tested parents. Oftentimes people don't want to wait, don't do their homework, and wind up getting a pup from some BYB or puppy mill who have pups because they have many dogs kept in horrible conditions and just pump out litter after litter after litter. I have seen any number of sad stories from people who got their dogs in this way....


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Eclipse said pretty much what I was going to say. Red is one of the rarest colors, toys have small litters, and some breeders have closed their waitlists due to the demand this year. 

Something you might try is running a search for poodle show results. This should bring you up some lists of shows along with the dogs that were entered in that show. For example, in the Poodle Club of Central California posted the results of several shows from 2012 to 2015. Kennels with entries in these shows included Sharbelle and Black Sky. A show in Palm Springs lists more Sharbelle poodles along with Clarion and Kandyland. These results at least tell you these are real kennels with real dogs that have done well in shows; they aren't just some dude with a web site and a PayPal account. From there you could track down their web site, reach out to them to find out if they are breeding, and ask about their health tests etc.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Excellent info from Eclipse and cowpony. This is my companion piece to what they've offered.

Not knowing your experience with dogs in general, and poodles and poodle breeders specifically, I'm going to give some overview info and then a link to a Breeder List compiled from member recommendations thru the years.

Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.
Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. Many poodle colors change thru their lives.
Temperament is lifelong trait.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List. 


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come. Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred. _


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


This is not a complete list so be sure to look at the Multi listings too. Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

Definitely use the Poodle Clubs for breeder referral too.

*  🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩  *
GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Wow, thank you guys all for the information. I really appreciate it. I would be new to owning a toy poodle. I’ve owned a yorkie before in the past, but when I purchased him he was sick & im really just trying to avoid that experience. I was thinking of another yorkie, but then I made up my mind to get the poodle.

I honestly didn’t even know to check for the testing or to even look at that. 
If the breeders don’t list the health testing or guarantees on their websites is that for a reason? Or, because they want us to ask them? I’ve asked a couple for them and they seem to be bothered that I’m seeking this. Also, why are some breeders saying not to change their food or if you give them flea/tick meds warranty is void? I don’t understand that. How much is too much for a red toy poodle? I’m looking for one on the smaller size. One breeder is asking $4000?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Websites are all over the place regarding information. A lot of very good breeders love dogs and hate business. Consequently, they lavish a lot of attention on their dog activities and may neglect things like websites (unless they also enjoy fiddling with html code.) Ironically, puppy mills often have better web sites than good breeders. Puppy mills need to attract customers to stay in business; good breeders can place puppies via referrals from their network of friends and other breeders. 

Regarding testing, there are both legitimate and bad reasons for breeders to get defensive about testing. For example, if someone knows that both her dog's parents were negative when tested for PRA, she can be confident her dog is clear. On the other hand, I would be very puzzled by a breeder who insists there is no reason to do a patella evaluation. Both the AKC and OFA recommend this evaluation. I would wonder why this breeder is not abiding by the recommendations from two major organizations.

When I checked prices on gooddog.com, I saw a pair of breeders at $4k; everyone else was lower.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> If the breeders don’t list the health testing or guarantees on their websites is that for a reason?
> I’ve asked a couple for them and they seem to be bothered that I’m seeking this.


Very, very generally, not for a good reason. If health testing isn't mentioned at all it's more likely that there hasn't been any but there are exceptions so if a breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask. 
If they waffle, or say they don't feel it's necessary, or even seem bothered by the fact that you ask, if it were me, I'd pass on them and move on.
If you have the kennel name or the dam's or sire's registered name or registry number, you can search for yourself on the OFA site. This is explained in the Health section of the Breeder List along with the OFA/CHIC tests for the variety (size). There is additional DNA testing that can be done thru independent labs and some or all of that can also be listed on the OFA site, or may be found at the testing lab site if the breeder has given public access. 
If you have a dog's registered name or the breeders name you can also do an online search just with that and that might link you to the publicly available DNA testing.
The two types of testing do not replace one another, they companion each other. OFA is sort of the benchmark. 

Remember this:


Rose n Poos said:


> If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. *Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.*





jmar3298 said:


> Also, why are some breeders saying not to change their food or if you give them flea/tick meds warranty is void?


This one is a little tougher. It may be a breeder who just feels strongly about certain things or it may be a breeder who is setting up "outs" from whatever health "guarantee" they offer. Again, if it were me, I'd pass on that breeder. 

If I live in a tick infested area or travel to one, I'd have to be able to consider giving the preventative. Same with flea control. I give it judiciously according to the season where I live or travel to. 
The converse side is that there are sometimes adverse side effects, as there can be to most anything, but if you discuss options carefully with your vet, you should be able to make that decision, not the breeder. 

The same reasoning applies to food. First, you wouldn't want to change food for the first few weeks. A young pup will be making stressful enough adjustments those early weeks. You don't want to add additional GI distress by changing food just yet. FYI, toys should stay with their mom and siblings til at least 10 weeks old, more if possible. Toy litters are usually quite small so they need additional mom and sibling time to learn some important life lessons. 

If a pup develops food allergies, you'll have to change food. Your life circumstances may make the breeders preferred food or style of food difficult to get easily. You, and your vet when appropriate, should be able to determine what to feed your pup.



jmar3298 said:


> How much is too much for a red toy poodle? I’m looking for one on the smaller size. One breeder is asking $4000?


$4000 is far too much. If a breeder is charging more for sizing, especially "teacup", "tiny toy", those are marketing terms and are geared toward profit, not for the poodle. If a breeder is deliberately breeding for undersize poodles, they are not considered reputable because the smaller, smallest poodles are prone to even more health issues.

A normal size toy, up to 10" at the shoulder is very portable. "Pocket sized" poodles are not to breed standard and you'll find very few reputable breeders in that category. As an example, the short legs that look so cute lose their charm once you realize that it's a genetic mutation that can result in very serious, even deadly, spinal issues. 

The same goes for breeders that charge more for certain colors. All marketing tactics. It costs no more to breed a red pup than a black, white, brown, silver, etc. 

I'm going to link you to a website of a breeder who is a PF member but is not likely to be on your radar because they're in Canada. This website has just about everything a new family might need to know and is organized nicely so finding your way around is easy. Not many breeders have as detailed a site and that doesn't make them bad. If you familiarize yourself with the information offered by this breeder before you have to make any contact at all, you'll get a feel for what to look for in others, and what to ask if you don't find it.









TEMPLE CITY POODLES


Reputable breeders of CKC Toy Poodles. Health tested dogs, raised in our home and participants of family activites. Actively showing in conformation and working towards other titles.



www.templecitypoodles.ca


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cowpony makes a good points. Here's the OFA policy on cleared by parentage.

_That means that if both parents have been DNA tested clear for a disease, OFA will declare offspring clear by virtue of the fact that the parents tested clear. However, there are a few requirements to clear by parentage.

1.) As mentioned, both sire and dam must have tested clear, and those test results must be on record with OFA.

2.) The sire, dam and the offspring to be cleared must all have been DNA identity profiled, and DNA profiles must be on record at OFA._








Clear By Parentage Policy | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Learn more about the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals policies and what the "Clear By Parentage Policy" means for health testing and pet owners.




www.ofa.org






The thing about websites or any other public facing site is to learn what information to look for and see how much is actually on the website. What are they trying to get* you* to focus on?
Pretty pictures and flashy graphics are the smallest part of the story. 
Do they feature only or mostly just cute lil puppies in their photos or do they show the dams and sires along with mentions of health testing? 
Can you see or find links to the health testing on their site? 
Do they show their breeding dogs in activities like showing, agility, etc, or just more cute puppies?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

All this info is pretty much valid across the board for any purebred dog, fyi. The health testing requirements vary by breed but that is likely to be the only difference. 

Find the quality, conscientious breeder you can communicate well with. They are likely to hope to be kept updated thru your pup's whole life and will be there to help you, if needed.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Awesome! Thanks again for the replies. I truly appreciate it. I know I might have to travel or have my puppy brought to me by plane possibly in fight nanny from some sights. Has anyone experienced this? & if so is it safe for the puppy to actually fly so young? I mean, I figure he would endure some sort of trauma or something? Also, I’m thinking about how would it work with this whole covid situation going on?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

jmar3298 said:


> Awesome! Thanks again for the replies. I truly appreciate it. I know I might have to travel or have my puppy brought to me by plane possibly in fight nanny from some sights. Has anyone experienced this? & if so is it safe for the puppy to actually fly so young? I mean, I figure he would endure some sort of trauma or something? Also, I’m thinking about how would it work with this whole covid situation going on?


Different airlines have different rules regarding inflight animals. I suspect the situation with flight availability and flight nannies will change monthly as the covid vaccine rollout continues. 

One of the dangers with toy puppies is hypoglycemia - they are so small that they have a bit more trouble regulating their blood sugar when they don't get fed on schedule. Good breeders are aware of this danger and often won't release a puppy until it is older; 12 weeks isn't unusual. An advantage of a toy puppy is that it will still fit under the seat when it is 12 weeks old.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Travel to your puppy if you can. That gives you the chance to meet the breeder and the pup's mother and any siblings, to see what the living arrangements have been, things like that. Covid is making this difficult but it can still be doable. 

I, for myself, could not fly a pup unaccompanied, and not all that comfortable about flying a young, especially a small, pup even with a nanny. 

It's done successfully all the time, I know, but I couldn't. I think of the little pup not understanding anything that was happening and trying to make sense of all the commotion and such, and I'd just have to be there for them .


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

ahhh yes I was definitely thinking of that. I would be willing to travel and meet the breeder see how my puppy has lived and you know just catch a feel overall. I just want to avoid the puppy traveling if possible but what can I do if there is no local breeders that fit what I’m looking for or some that don’t do a waitlist and first come first serve which I get but it’s hard to do at times. It also makes it hard when I’m seeking a smaller toy.

Has anyone heard of prestigious toy poodles in Arizona?

I was also looking at poodles for life or premier poodles. 

Thoughts?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> some that don’t do a waitlist and first come first serve


No breeder that I'd consider reputable will work on a first come first serve basis. I'd also expect that very few don't do waitlist. 

Here's how those look with quality breeders:

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy _but there may not yet be puppies on the ground. _

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but _the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground. _

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. *I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. * If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. * Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."*

Example B

"*Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies*. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. *When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list *and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.
*Step 3: Litter Announcements*

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
*Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families*

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

*Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sa*le. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
*Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day.* We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:


Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold.
Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable.
Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy.
Payment can be made by:
Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank.
Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information."


"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from *__*, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our *____*)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to *____*
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting *___* and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to *__*
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money.


Looking at your suggestions:

Prestigious looks to be someone I'd follow up with but I'd want to ask why they don't seem to do the OFA/Chic testing on their breeding dogs.
I'd also really want to see the contract/guarantee first. If a breeder excludes certain conditions which could have been tested for in the breeding parents, I'd wonder why they don't just test the parents and remove that particular health issue.

Where did you find Poodles For Life? I'm not getting any hits with that on an internet search. If they're listing on a place like PuppySpot or PuppyFind, I'd runnnnnnn. Those places and any like that kind of marketplace is likely a broker site, not that different from Craigslist, often for high volume breeders, the kind that put profit over the health and welfare of the poodles in their care. 

Premier Poodles

"we make it a priority to ensure a high health standard."
How do they do that? There's no mention of the type of health testing. OFA/CHIC testing is a minimum. 

"Our breeding program"
What is their goal in their breeding program? Providing happiness to others is a bonus, not a reason to breed. What are they doing to improve the breed?

"consists of genetically tested"
This needs to be specified. DNA testing for parentage is not health testing, if that's what they're doing. The OFA/CHIC testing is the minimum standard. Poodle specific DNA panels to check for genetic diseases look like this, from PawPrint





Paw Print Genetics - Tests for Toy Poodle


Canine genetic disease, trait, and coat color tests for the breed: Toy Poodle.




www.pawprintgenetics.com




These are companion tests. One set does not replace the other.

"and registered toy poodles" 
Registered where? American Kennel Club or United Kennel Club are the only two purebred registries. You'll want to know both parents registered names or numbers so that you can verify that you're getting a purebred poodle. The puppies should also be registered either as a litter to convert to individual registration or already individually registered. 

"Our breeding pairs provide several coat variations ranging from soft and fleecy to tight curls."
This is not to the poodle breed standard. The coat standard is "Coat: (a) Quality - (1) Curly: of naturally harsh texture, dense throughout." from the AKC Poodle Breed Standard http://poodleclubofthelehighvalley.com/IllustratedStandard.pdf

Their contract:
I stopped reading at "purchase price $4,000", then I made myself go back and read the rest. 

8 weeks is too soon for a toy poodle to be taken from mother and siblings. 10 weeks is a minimum age. Toys need to remain with mom and sibs to learn valuable life lessons. They need to grow a bit more to reduce the possibility of hypoglycemia, which can be deadly, quickly. 

6 months is now generally considered too young for spay/neuter. There is no known individual benefit to desexing this young, and may be benefits to waiting til the pup is physically mature. 

"genetic defects" is not the same as genetic disease which may take several years to manifest. Back to the health testing of the parents. 


They talk about health but offer no proof at all of the testing. They also offer no information on their sires or dams such as photos with registered names so they can be looked up at the AKC or OFA site, the OFA/CHIC testing info or links...



Rose n Poos said:


> What are they trying to get* you* to focus on?
> Pretty pictures and flashy graphics are the smallest part of the story.
> Do they feature only or mostly just cute lil puppies in their photos or do they show the dams and sires along with mentions of health testing?
> Can you see or find links to the health testing on their site?
> Do they show their breeding dogs in activities like showing, agility, etc, or just more cute puppies?


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Tons of good information. It is actually overwhelming and gives me anxiety for all the things I need to check for, but I know in the end it will all be worth it. I appreciate your help. Lately, I’ve been using good dog to do searches. I’ve noticed that for testing most state Genetics - Full Embark Panel, PRA, Rod-Cone Degeneration (PRA-prcd), Degenerative Myelopathy (DM; SOD1A) i believe there was only one other that I was interested in that provided another one apart from this one which was Knees - Patellar Luxation (OFA). They’re listed under good dog as “Good” for the amount of testing but i just want to be sure.

Also, sorry about poodles for life. It’s actually poodles 4 life with the number.

I came across Red head Heaven poodles which is near, but I’m not sure.
Thoughts?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> It is actually overwhelming and gives me anxiety for all the things I need to check for, but I know in the end it will all be worth it.


It's a learning curve, for sure. I've learned all this in pieces and am still learning. Once you get a handle on the basics and can start looking at the online sites yourself, seeing what is and isn't there, you'll be more confident in gauging _what _you're seeing. 

On the Health testing, there are two basic categories.
Phenotype testing is testing by a physical examination. OFA stands for Orthopedic Foundation for Animals. Originally the testing was for the common orthopedic issues and as science learns, so do the rest of us. 
Genotype testing is the DNA testing for the presence of genes which carry or inflict specific diseases. 
Both types of testing are very important. When both the OFA/CHIC testing for primarily physical presence of disease and the DNA testing for disease are done, you get a more complete health picture. Some breeders do it all, some go beyond that, some do less, some do none.
The more the testing, the more good/normal/clear results, the better odds of your puppy having a lifetime free of these diseases. The smaller the poodle, the more likely health issues will be there, and not all of those have tests yet. 

Toy poodles are particularly, but not necessarily commonly, susceptible to (this is the OFA minimum standard)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
but there are more genetic issues that can happen so this is where the DNA testing comes in

This is PawPrints Toy Poodle Panel (an independent lab, as is Embark)

Degenerative Myelopathy
Aliases: Canine degenerative myelopathy, DM

GM2 Gangliosidosis (Poodle Type)
Aliases: Sandhoff disease, Type 0 gangliosidosis

Osteochondrodysplasia
Aliases: Skeletal dwarfism, OCD

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration
Aliases: PRA-PRCD, PRCD

Progressive Retinal Atrophy, Rod-Cone Dysplasia 4
Aliases: PRA-rcd4

Von Willebrand Disease I
Aliases: Pseudohemophilia, Vascular hemophilia, von Willebrand disease type 1, von Willebrand's disease, VWDI

Additional Disease Tests for Toy Poodle

Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk) with or without Chondrodysplasia (CDPA)
Aliases: CDDY with IVDD, CDPA, Hansen's Type I IVDD, Intervertebral Disc Disease

Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures
Aliases: NEWS

Gooddog.com is a good source but it's a starting point. Compare each item on this list to the information they choose to offer on the site.



Rose n Poos said:


> My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
> They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
> They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
> They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
> ...



Poodles 4 Life


Rose n Poos said:


> Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.


I personally wouldn't consider for myself or recommend them. Their prices are simply too high, even if they tested for everything under the sun. It does not cost that much to breed. 

Look at the comments I made on the other two you mentioned and compare
What is their goal in breeding poodles? What are they doing to make the Poodle breed better in their program?
What made their family pet an ideal example of poodles per the breed standard to breed? 
What are they investing in their dogs? Full health testing? Showing their dogs in competitions to prove they meet the breed standard or competitions to prove their dogs are physically sound and able?

Redhead Heaven Poodles


Rose n Poos said:


> As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


Apparently you don't even have to speak with them, in fact they discourage phone calls, or communicate in any way before "ordering" a puppy from them. All you have to do is read something, fill out something then drop your money thru their handy pay link? 
A quality, conscientious breeder will _absolutely want to communicate with you_ to see if you're going to love and care for those babies as much as they have. In fact there are usually several conversations or communications back and forth, asking and answering questions before being added to a waitlist or any deposits are accepted. 


"We ensure that our lines meet the AKC standards for health, temperament and conformation lines. Using these AKC requirements we pick the best breeding stock available."

How do they do that? What are their qualifications for assessing the AKC standards? What is their criteria for "best breeding stock"? Why is that stud the right one to breed with that bitch? What is the pedigree of their breeding dogs? 

They are pricing their toys based on size and using marketing terms that are not breed standards. There is only toy, miniature, or standard. 
I've looked at their site before and I thought that there used to be a tab that linked to their breeding females. They are doing some of the testing on OFA, where at least 13 females of breeding age are listed under that kennel name. 
That's a _lot_ of litters. A lot.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

jmar3298 said:


> I came across Red head Heaven poodles which is near, but I’m not sure.
> Thoughts?


Different prices for different sizes and colours, and it looks like they may offer stud services for doodling. I also copied and pasted some text from their website and it matched text associated with other breeds:










I would proceed with caution. I would not personally consider a breeder with this sort of web presence unless I could speak with them by phone and then visit their home.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Here’s another thread that might be helpful for you:









Thoughts/Reviews on Red Head Heaven Poodles in CA


Hi Everyone! I've decided to move forward and finally get a red mini or toy poodle as a companion dog but also a support animal as I do have anxiety and sometimes depressive episodes (its been a rough year!). I'm based in Southern California, but would be willing to drive throughout CA, as well...




www.poodleforum.com





If you Google the Sierra Golden Retrievers contact number.....


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I did a search here and found out why the name was fam....
You got it PTP


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

I really appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me on this. Thank you for the bottom of my heart. I will be doing more research into breeders now that I know where to start and what to look for and what to pass up on. I will also post a pic of my baby as soon as I get him. Thank you thank you!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Good luck on your quest and always ask questions, here, or of the breeder. The breeder should be asking you many questions too!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The only reputable breeder of toys in California that I know has red dogs is Zamora. I don't know them in detail and she is rather old-school in terms of her website. But she has been breeding for a very long time. I'd give her a call.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> The only reputable breeder of toys in California that I know has red dogs is Zamora. I don't know them in detail and she is rather old-school in terms of her website. But she has been breeding for a very long time. I'd give her a call.





Raindrops said:


> The only reputable breeder of toys in California that I know has red dogs is Zamora. I don't know them in detail and she is rather old-school in terms of her website. But she has been breeding for a very long time. I'd give her a call.


Thank you!


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Good luck on your quest and always ask questions, here, or of the breeder. The breeder should be asking you many questions too!


I stand behind all of my dogs and you get it in writing. 

thoughts?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I've looked over this site before and would not consider them for myself, therefore could not recommend them to anyone else.

_"We cannot quote a starting price for one of our toy poodles because of so many variables, and our *"Pocket Poodles*, "Fine Tiny Toys*, Specialty Colors, and Breeding or Show Quality do sell for much more."*_

Deliberately breeding for undersize toys - off my list

It does not cost more to breed for a color or size - off my list

Breeding...sell for much more - a conscientious breeder will not sell a pup with breeding rights (aka full registration vs limited registration) to anyone just because they can pay the price. - off my list

IMO, a conscientious breeder will only sell a pup with show potential, and therefore also worthy of breeding to continue to improve the breed to another person who is already in the show world, someone with experience and who will only breed if it will better the breed overall.or someone they are mentoring to enter the show world.

IMO, a conscientious breeder is deliberately selecting each breeding pair to complement desirable traits or offset undesirable ones. Every breeding is in hopes of producing show potential pups. If they're lucky, they may have one show potential pup in every few litters. Show potential goes back to the breed standard. How close does that pup come to the breed standard?

Where is the health testing to confirm the success of this statement?

_"I have painstakingly worked to eliminate all known defects from my bloodlines."

"We offer a 5 year health guarantee covering all genetic problems."_

*and yet they say*

_"1. With regard to any congenital defect, I guarantee all puppies for one (1) year (from date of birth) to be free of, but not limited to; Severe Patella Luxation* affecting mobility, Leg Perthes, Hip Dysplasia, Cataracts, Epilepsy/Seizures, Tracheal Collapse, or heart or liver ailments."_


There is no mention or pictures whatsoever of the individual breeding parents. No mention of any specific health testing. No mention of where health testing results might be found. Nothing but cute puppies which aren't even the ones available.

They rule out in their contract conditions which, if the breeding parents were tested and not bred if not normal, would not be a congenital condition.

Reminder of the appropriate testing for toy poodles before breeding:



Rose n Poos said:


> Toy poodles are particularly, but not necessarily commonly, susceptible to (this is the OFA minimum standard)
> 
> *Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
> DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
> ...


*___*

_Registration:
1. Any puppy with a projected adult weight of 4 pounds or less will be sold with a limited registration.
(This means they cannot be used for breeding to produce a registered litter.)_

*This suggests that any puppy with a projected weight of over 4 lbs may be sold with full (breeding rights) registration. This is not how to determine whether a dog is worthy of being bred and puts no restrictions on who might buy and how they might breed that poor little pup,*

_2. We will not provide any guarantee for any puppy with a projected adult weight of 4 pounds or less because they have proved themselves as an extremely high maintenance pet._



Rose n Poos said:


> The smaller the poodle, the more likely health issues will be there, and not all of those have tests yet.


_3. This is done to protect the breed and the health of the dog.

4. All of my adult dogs are registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC) and the United Kennel Club (UKC), which means that all puppies are eligible for registry as well.

5. I am keenly interested in the outcome of all breedings and for that reason I do not immediately register any litter. Waiting to register my puppies will insure that all colors and sizes will be accurate because controlling genetic traits is such a delicate process. We will always appreciate you patience in this matter. _

This statement is puzzling. Registration with either AKC or UKC only provides documentation that the pup is purebred, whatever the breed. It has little to nothing to do with size, color, or other genetic traits beyond 100% poodle or not 100% poodle. Colors are noted on registrations but colors may start to change as much as three or more years after birth, and, many poodle colors will change thru their life. Red is a fading color. The pup may start darker and fade lighter. That is nothing to stop the registration and simply may be saving them the cost of registering (how many?) litters or pups.
Toys may go oversize. Minis may go oversize.

_"We get asked often to provide a list of available puppies, and have discovered that maintaining an up to the minute list is impossible due to sales demands."_

*and yet they say*_ "We pay extra attention to detail, therefore our record keeping is meticulous,"_

This makes me wonder just how many puppies they might have for sale at any given time, that they can't keep track.

"_ordering page To place an order teacup"_


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Thank you thank you thank you! I thought NO too. I just wanted to make sure I was thinking right and thought to ask about it.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> I've looked over this site before and would not consider them for myself, therefore could not recommend them to anyone else.
> 
> _"We cannot quote a starting price for one of our toy poodles because of so many variables, and our *"Pocket Poodles*, "Fine Tiny Toys*, Specialty Colors, and Breeding or Show Quality do sell for much more."*_
> 
> ...


i found this other breeder through the AKC Marketplace. She said she doesn’t have a website. This is the information she has on the AKCsite.


About the Breeder
BREEDING SINCE 1995
Hello, my name is Brianna Dubois, located in Los Angeles, California U.S.A.. I have been a serious, ethical, expert, professional A.K.C. hobbyist dog breeder-exhibitor of healthy, pure blood, toy poodles for over 25 years, and am very fortunate to enjoy this gorgeous, intelligent and amorous breed. My prefix or kennel name is MARVELOUS. ( there is a commercial toy poodle breeder with the same suffix but it’s NOT ME ). I am a scientist Biologist with a Master’s degree in Genetics and reproductive issues of wild and domestic animals. Correct Toy Poodle: 8.5 to 10 inches tall. 5 to 7 pounds body weight. I am very lucky to be part of preserving, improving and maintaining the correct identity and purity of the amazing toy poodle breed, for future generations to love and enjoy. I only conduct very strict ethical practices following the Poodle Club of America and the A.K.C poodle standard Code of Ethics only, in solid colors of: red, black, white, and silver. I do not bred very often, I breed only for me, I keep my sweet little babies for a while until I decide which ones to keep. My dogs are fully tested for: PRA/PRCD clear, optical tested, patellae normal, no hypoglycemia, no epileptic seizures, no heart murmurs, no hip dysplasia, no allergies to environment or foods. No health problems of any kind. My sweet dogs have ideal temperament, they are friendly, confident, sweet, loving, tough and lots of fun. My toy poodles have correct conformation, soundness, movement, attitude and beauty. I feel very proud that I have helped and continue to preserve the toy size variety of poodles to a magnificent world-class quality for the last 25 years. Please, feel free to give me a telephone call and I will be very glad to hear from you, talk with you, and hopefully one of my sweet, adorable, friendly babies will brighten you and your family's life.

Help?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

jmar3298 said:


> i found this other breeder through the AKC Marketplace. She said she doesn’t have a website. This is the information she has on the AKCsite.
> 
> 
> About the Breeder
> ...


She sounds like somebody worth contacting, but I am a bit annoyed that I cannot find anything about her online. Not even on the OFA databases. So I'd be super careful to get documentation of all health testing and I'd want to meet her dogs. It's unusual to have that little info available online.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Thank you! I was looking and looking and I couldn’t find anything either. I’ll be sure to ask questions. She did say she has one pup available but then I started thinking usually there’s suppose to be wait lists right? well for the most part.


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> She sounds like somebody worth contacting, but I am a bit annoyed that I cannot find anything about her online. Not even on the OFA databases. So I'd be super careful to get documentation of all health testing and I'd want to meet her dogs. It's unusual to have that little info available online.


I contacted her, spent over an hour on the phone with her. Sounds like she has that black toy boy that is a older but still under a year that she isn’t going to show and older dogs that she has finished showing/has retired that she would part with as well. I asked her a few more questions and for videos and pictures. I personally did not like that she would part with her older dogs. She told me she would text me more info later and has never gotten back to me.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

minniemouse said:


> Sounds like she has that black toy boy that is a older but still under a year that she isn’t going to show and older dogs that she has finished showing/has retired that she would part with as well.


Some background on why this might happen.

If a breeder has held back a pup that they thought might have show potential but as it got a bit older, "faults" unimportant to anyone but a judge in the ring developed (example: tail set too high, slight under or over bite), it's normal to offer the pup for sale to a pet family. Win for the family, win for the pup. Usually hard for the breeder to give them up.

Another reason might be related to health testing results. That's not usually completed until 2 years old. The results might show a carrier gene for something but the poodle is not affected themselves. A test showing less than the very best results might cause them to eventually offer the pup for sale to a pet family. Win for the family, win for the pup. Usually hard for the breeder to give them up.

It's also not unusual to part with retired dogs, to allow them to have the full attention of a loving family. Win for the dog, win for the family. Usually hard for the breeder to give them up.

The bitches are typically bred only 3-4 times in their lives (from 2-6 years old) and to keep the genetic diversity, the breeder needs to add different dogs for breeding (the stud dogs are often from another kennel entirely). If they truly are a small, in their home breeder, they can only keep the dogs they are actually breeding.

Most states have regulations concerning how many dogs of breeding age, how many litters per year, and so on. If they go over those limits, they need to be licensed by the USDA as a higher volume breeder.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

minniemouse said:


> I contacted her, spent over an hour on the phone with her. Sounds like she has that black toy boy that is a older but still under a year that she isn’t going to show and older dogs that she has finished showing/has retired that she would part with as well. I asked her a few more questions and for videos and pictures. I personally did not like that she would part with her older dogs. She told me she would text me more info later and has never gotten back to me.


Rehoming retired dogs isn't necessarily bad. If a breeder cannot give them the attention they deserve and can place them with a family that could give them a wonderful life, it can be great for the dog. Better than being one of many in a home that focuses on a purpose they are no longer a part of. It can go both ways. But I would say you should definitely go with your gut feelings.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> I cannot find anything about her online.


I can't even find her on the AKC Marketplace.

What I also find surprising is that if


jmar3298 said:


> a scientist Biologist with a Master’s degree in Genetics and reproductive issues of wild and domestic animals. Correct Toy Poodle: 8.5 to 10 inches tall. 5 to 7 pounds body weight. I am very lucky to be part of preserving, improving and maintaining the correct identity and purity of the amazing toy poodle breed,


why she wouldn't be talking about health testing in that bio. It reads like she may be doing diversity testing " improving and maintaining the correct identity and purity" but not necessarily actual health testing.

ETA: she does clearly state


jmar3298 said:


> My dogs are fully tested for: PRA/PRCD clear, optical tested, patellae normal, no hypoglycemia, no epileptic seizures, no heart murmurs, no hip dysplasia, no allergies to environment or foods. No health problems of any kind.


just no idea where those results might be found. I can't find anything anywhere using many variations of search terms. That's really odd.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I might try contacting the various California poodle clubs to ask what they might know of her. She mentions the AKC and The Poodle Club ethical practices and standard Code of Ethics.









California - The Poodle Club of America







poodleclubofamerica.org







jmar3298 said:


> I only conduct very strict ethical practices following the Poodle Club of America and the A.K.C poodle standard Code of Ethics


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Now I'm having more questions after finding the mention of testing. 

Allergies to food or environment can develop at any time in life. I don't think there's any sort of test to declare an animal will not develop them. 
Same with hypoglycemia. I don't think it's the kind of condition which can be tested for unless the pup is actually having an episode. 
I'd ask for the description of optical testing. That's vague when there's a specific term used in the testing. 
Heart murmurs may not be present at birth but that doesn't mean they can't develop after. 
Patella's are always normal?

I'm just more puzzled the more I think about all this.


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Rehoming retired dogs isn't necessarily bad. If a breeder cannot give them the attention they deserve and can place them with a family that could give them a wonderful life, it can be great for the dog. Better than being one of many in a home that focuses on a purpose they are no longer a part of. It can go both ways. But I would say you should definitely go with your gut feelings.


Yeah, the feeling I got was that she’s not actually really a breeder ( also why no webpage). She has some dogs that she breeds and shows on her own and then the extra dogs are what she’s posting about (not being shown/too old to show or get a litter from now).

I personally will keep my lil monsters for life


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

minniemouse said:


> I contacted her, spent over an hour on the phone with her. Sounds like she has that black toy boy that is a older but still under a year that she isn’t going to show and older dogs that she has finished showing/has retired that she would part with as well. I asked her a few more questions and for videos and pictures. I personally did not like that she would part with her older dogs. She told me she would text me more info later and has never gotten back to me.


I contacted her too stayed on the phone awhile. She was mainly talking about her shows and her dogs. She was very knowledgeable, but couldn’t get a clear answer about a health guarantee. She said she gives 3 days to take pup to the vet and get checked out, & I gave her an example of how other breeders give couple year guarantee and she said problems usually arise within 6 months? Idk she seemed honest but I still haven’t received any pics.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Some background on why this might happen.
> 
> If a breeder has held back a pup that they thought might have show potential but as it got a bit older, "faults" unimportant to anyone but a judge in the ring developed (example: tail set too high, slight under or over bite), it's normal to offer the pup for sale to a pet family. Win for the family, win for the pup. Usually hard for the breeder to give them up.
> 
> ...


I agree she was mostly talking about her shows and how her dogs are up to par with the standards. She says she breeds for herself not to sell. The reason she gave me for selling that puppy was that he had a different color on him and they have to be a full color to participate in shows?


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> I might try contacting the various California poodle clubs to ask what they might know of her. She mentions the AKC and The Poodle Club ethical practices and standard Code of Ethics.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, she said she was part of a club I believe. I will have to look into that some more.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

minniemouse said:


> Yeah, the feeling I got was that she’s not actually really a breeder ( also why no webpage). She has some dogs that she breeds and shows on her own and then the extra dogs are what she’s posting about (not being shown/too old to show or get a litter from now).
> 
> I personally will keep my lil monsters for life


Yes, definitely agree with you!


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Now I'm having more questions after finding the mention of testing.
> 
> Allergies to food or environment can develop at any time in life. I don't think there's any sort of test to declare an animal will not develop them.
> Same with hypoglycemia. I don't think it's the kind of condition which can be tested for unless the pup is actually having an episode.
> ...


This was something she repeated about the testing. She said, she has copies of her testing she mentioned patellas & pra. I thought in my head, how can you test for the hypoglycemia as well.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> The reason she gave me for selling that puppy was that he had a different color on him and they have to be a full color to participate in shows?


If she's showing in the AKC conformation ring only (think Westminsters or Crufts, dogs on stands while judge runs hands over to feel the structure and looks dog over for "faults", walked or run around the ring to assess movement) then, yes, only solid color poodles are allowed in that competition. 

Other AKC competitions allow multicolor poodles. The UKC allows multi color to show in conformation, but I believe they compete against other multi color poodles and the solid colors compete against other solids.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Post #14 has examples of how waitlists and deposits are handled, good and bad. 

This is an example of a health guarantee/warranty from a breeder who does appropriate testing. Use it to compare to others.

Compare not only the differences in the health terms but also the primary focus of each.

What seems most important to each breeder?

_1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) *This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, *

Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) *The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns.* The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog. The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.

7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family._



A lifetime guarantee like this one isn't the norm, even in breeders who do the testing, but having done the testing, their contract has something to back it up. They are confident in the health of the pups they offer and will stand behind the pup and the new family.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

minniemouse said:


> Yeah, the feeling I got was that she’s not actually really a breeder ( also why no webpage). She has some dogs that she breeds and shows on her own and then the extra dogs are what she’s posting about (not being shown/too old to show or get a litter from now).
> 
> I personally will keep my lil monsters for life


I hope to breed my miniature poodle later this year. In the past I bred standard poodles and whippets for many years. I do not have a web page and do not plan to have one. My handler will let people know about the litter and I expect they will all have planned homes by the time they are born. Of course, minis and toys do not have very big litters, so it's easier to have an appropriate "wait list" for puppies. The largest litter of standard poodles I ever had was 12 (also had a whippet litter of 12 - born on Christmas day!). Even so, there were no "left over" puppies. All were spoken for. I have always had extensive connections through the dog show world, so it was never difficult to place puppies in good homes.

So please do not judge a breeder by the presence or absence of a web page.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Johanna makes a very good point. I've learned much from her shared knowledge, and from that of other members. 

There are excellent breeders who have little or no public or online presence. They are found by word of mouth, usually thru show world connections as she mentioned, or potentially thru the appropriate Poodle Club Breeder Referral. They don't have the public presence because they don't need it. Selling poodles is not their goal, it's a by-product of their goal, to better the breed.

The general public, like me, depend on online sites when looking to add a pet to their family. Unless you happen on to a site like this where you may learn of these word of mouth breeders, or of the Poodle Club resources, these are folks we never even know of.

The information you'll find here about health and diversity testing, what to look for in a breeder, contracts, and so on, are generally valid for any breeder regardless of how you find them.

(Johanna, please advise me if I have any of this wrong.)


I knew nothing of any of this with my first three poodles, circa 1963 to 2002. When my 2002 search for poodles resulted in finding my first conscientious breeder, I started learning a bit. In my 2017 search, there was so much more information available online, including this forum. Science had been taking things learned from human health studies and expanded into the canine world for some time and much of that information was now available online.

For much of the poodle seeking public it's still 2002. They don't know what else there is to know unless they happen on something that expands their knowledge. I just hope they land on PF


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

jmar3298 said:


> I stand behind all of my dogs and you get it in writing.
> 
> thoughts?


IMO this preamble didn’t sound as much like a guarantee as a kind of defensive rant. It sounds like this person has had a lot of complaints and is “over it” lol.

One section that would reallyturn me away is this

*1. With regard to any congenital defect, I guarantee all puppies for one (1) year (from date of birth) to be free of, but not limited to; Severe Patella Luxation* affecting mobility, Leg Perthes, Hip Dysplasia, Cataracts, Epilepsy/Seizures, Tracheal Collapse, or heart or liver ailments. *

Some of these ailments often don’t appear to at least 2 years and should have had appropriate health testing to reasonably prevent them. Im not hearing in this someone that wants to know about these diseases and carefully take them out of their lines but more someone wiping their hands clean after one year but maybe Im reading too into it 😳

also this:

*8. Please realize that a teacup or tiny toy poodle (a poodle with an actual or projected adult weight of 4 pounds or under) is a very high maintenance pet and for this reason I cannot provide any warranty for one of these little ones. . However, rest assured that all Teacups will be extensively examined by my Veterinarian who will certify the health of the Teacup.*

This basically says, I breed unhealthy dogs and take no responsibility for them, good luck. 😢


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Oops didn’t realize how far back I was on the thread, carry on lolol


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Post #14 has examples of how waitlists and deposits are handled, good and bad.
> 
> This is an example of a health guarantee/warranty from a breeder who does appropriate testing. Use it to compare to others.
> 
> ...


Sara Jane? Does anyone know the deal with her? I can’t seem to find a website for her but she just quoted me almost 5k for a puppy. I’m trying to ask questions but she is very short? Has anyone been in contact with her?


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

jmar3298 said:


> Sara Jane? Does anyone know the deal with her? I can’t seem to find a website for her but she just quoted me almost 5k for a puppy. I’m trying to ask questions but she is very short? Has anyone been in contact with her?


I found this:








Furry Paws | Better Business Bureau® Profile


This organization is not BBB accredited. Service Dogs in Los Gatos, CA. See BBB rating, reviews, complaints, & more.




www.bbb.org





I think it might be her?


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

minniemouse said:


> I found this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it might be her. I found a FB page with a different phone number. Idk? She’s not really responsive.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> Sara Jane? Does anyone know the deal with her? I can’t seem to find a website for her but she just quoted me almost 5k for a puppy.


(I finally found the way to the breeders previously mentioned also on the AKC Marketplace.)

There may be more to her than can be found online but what I have found doesn't inspire me to give her $4800 for a poodle.

First thought is $5000 !?! - off my list That might be valid or even low for a trained service dog, but not a puppy.

Second









Third Hmmmm??

















Breeder of toy or mini reds + Puppy Culture?


Do you know of any apricot or red toy or mini poodle breeders who raise with Puppy Culture techniques? Near California preferred. Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.




www.poodleforum.com













Feedback on Sara Jane?


Hi, I am interested in some of the puppies posted to AKC by Sara Jane. https://marketplace.akc.org/breeder/sara-jane-31173 Does any of you have feedback? I appreciate your info!!!




www.poodleforum.com


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Oh wow! so she’s breeding the same sires or maybe just using the same information on the second post. It says 1 chocolate available the one she showed me was a red and she said the parents are 8-10 pounds and I asked for smaller & then she said puppy will be 6-7 pounds full grown.

On another note, I thought 4K was high just checked in with another breeder they want 5k. Prices are high.


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

jmar3298 said:


> Oh wow! so she’s breeding the same sires or maybe just using the same information on the second post. It says 1 chocolate available the one she showed me was a red and she said the parents are 8-10 pounds and I asked for smaller & then she said puppy will be 6-7 pounds full grown.
> 
> On another note, I thought 4K was high just checked in with another breeder they want 5k. Prices are high.


Yeah, I have been looking as well and most range in 4-5k range.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Are any of those quotes from breeders on the Breeder List? 

And are they talking price before you all have some back and forth information about each other exchanged?

I think I'm asking at what point in the contact is the question of price coming up?

Those prices are very, very high, IMO.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> o she’s breeding the same sires


I really hope that that's just an error.

One listing is for STANDARD poodles, the other for a TEACUP toy poodle.

Either way, error or ??, that's just so wrong. Intervariety cross between adjacent sizes has occasionally been done for very specific reasons by very knowledgeable breeders, but a toy bred to a standard????


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

If you're targeting your search for tiny toys, teacup or pocket poodles, then I wouldn't be surprised at over the top pricing. That's "what the market will bear" pricing, not puppies from proper health tested, structurally sound parents from a conscientious breeder. 

The AKC marketplace is a mixture of all kinds of breeders. There isn't any vetting of them to list beyond AKC registered dogs and paying the fee to list. It's going to be up to you to verify if they are conscientious.

AKC registry is documentation of purebred status, nothing more, no testing, etc required. 

Not all quality conscientious breeders apply to be in these programs, but something else to look for would be an AKC Breeder of Merit and/or AKC Bred with H.E.A.R.T.









AKC Breeder Of Merit Program – American Kennel Club







www.akc.org













AKC Bred with H.E.A.R.T. Program – American Kennel Club







www.akc.org


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Ahhh yeah, you know that makes sense the ones I’ve contacted before I knew what I know now for smaller sized toys don’t even care to test. They just say their dogs are healthy.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> If you're targeting your search for tiny toys, teacup or pocket poodles, then I wouldn't be surprised at over the top pricing. That's "what the market will bear" pricing, not puppies from proper health tested, structurally sound parents from a conscientious breeder.
> 
> The AKC marketplace is a mixture of all kinds of breeders. There isn't any vetting of them to list beyond AKC registered dogs and paying the fee to list. It's going to be up to you to verify if they are conscientious.
> 
> ...


I will definitely check those links out. Thank you!


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> If you're targeting your search for tiny toys, teacup or pocket poodles, then I wouldn't be surprised at over the top pricing. That's "what the market will bear" pricing, not puppies from proper health tested, structurally sound parents from a conscientious breeder.
> 
> The AKC marketplace is a mixture of all kinds of breeders. There isn't any vetting of them to list beyond AKC registered dogs and paying the fee to list. It's going to be up to you to verify if they are conscientious.
> 
> ...


Some of the ones I did reach out to are on the list and some were recommended in other parts of the forum. Range seems to be 2-5k. With more in the 3-5 price range. I definitely don’t want a “teacup”. I want a larger toy actually for my other darling to play with. Gail quoted me 4. She’s my favorite out of everyone I’ve spoken to. Many of my interactions are via email and I am quoted a price in the first email.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

minniemouse said:


> Some of the ones I did reach out to are on the list and some were recommended in other parts of the forum. Range seems to be 2-5k. With more in the 3-5 price range. I definitely don’t want a “teacup”. I want a larger toy actually for my other darling to play with. Gail quoted me 4. She’s my favorite out of everyone I’ve spoken to. Many of my interactions are via email and I am quoted a price in the first email.


4k is still very high but I do know that prices in California can be 1k above normal. I would trust Zamora to not be greeder-pricing based on their standing in the breed community. Looking at another breeder referral list, I believe Mi Vida is another reputable California breeder that could have red toys.


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> 4k is still very high but I do know that prices in California can be 1k above normal. I would trust Zamora to not be greeder-pricing based on their standing in the breed community. Looking at another breeder referral list, I believe Mi Vida is another reputable California breeder that could have red toys.


Yea, I did like mi vida webpage, I was quoted 5k from them, they are expecting toys probably mid year.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

minniemouse said:


> Yea, I did like mi vida webpage, I was quoted 5k from them, they are expecting toys probably mid year.


Yikes that's high. I have heard Cali is a different price range. I guess you could expand your search and fly to pick up a puppy and still be paying less.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> 4k is still very high but I do know that prices in California can be 1k above normal. I would trust Zamora to not be greeder-pricing based on their standing in the breed community. Looking at another breeder referral list, I believe Mi Vida is another reputable California breeder that could have red toys.


Zamora 4K, Mi Vida 5K. They’re all pretty much around the same price. I just found this website called puppy find. I saw some cute pups on there but the people are idk not credible you can say. They want 5k 6 month health guarantee against genetic disease they don’t do testing because their dogs don’t have health problems. They said they are hobby breeders for over 10 years. Sorry to keep posting, but this search is kinda driving me a little bonkers. I don’t know if you can tell or not? haha smh it’s a lot.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am puzzled that there are continual questions, but not much evidence that suggestions from extremely experienced poodle people here are being checked out or followed up on by the OP. Maybe I have overlooked something by reading too quickly?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

kontiki said:


> I am puzzled that there are continual questions, but not much evidence that suggestions from extremely experienced poodle people here are being checked out or followed up on by the OP. Maybe I have overlooked something by reading too quickly?


No she is checking them out. Just looking at a number of breeders. But in my opinion it's apples to oranges being compared. I would only be considering a highly reputable breeder. Nobody on PuppyFind is reputable in my eyes. But people have to make their own decisions.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> Sara Jane? Does anyone know the deal with her? I can’t seem to find a website for her but she just quoted me almost 5k for a puppy. I’m trying to ask questions but she is very short? Has anyone been in contact with her?


Five thousand is outrageous! Keep looking!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> Johanna makes a very good point. I've learned much from her shared knowledge, and from that of other members.
> 
> There are excellent breeders who have little or no public or online presence. They are found by word of mouth, usually thru show world connections as she mentioned, or potentially thru the appropriate Poodle Club Breeder Referral. They don't have the public presence because they don't need it. Selling poodles is not their goal, it's a by-product of their goal, to better the breed.
> 
> ...


Rose n Poos, you are right on! Our local poodle club (Enchantment Poodle Club) does Saturday morning poodle walks as one means of meeting possible dog owners. We talk to people about how to buy a healthy puppy. (FYI - the reason our club is called the Enchantment Poodle Club is because the New Mexico state nickname is "Land of Enchantment".)


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I would add as a potential source: reputable breeder's Facebook pages.

My own dog came from a new breeder's first litter. My dog's breeder doesn't have a website, she does have a Facebook page but Facebook pages are hard to find unless you know to look for them.

She listed the litter on the Canadian poodle club website (not the Ontario or local one, or the CKC website) but I didn't know to look there. I actually found her by seeing a post on another more well known breeder's Facebook page - the more well-known breeder co-owns my dog's dam, and the litter was also mentioned on another very well known breeder's Facebook (owner of the sire). I never would have found my dog if I just stuck to websites but from what I have watched, it looks like the better breeders will put the word out if they know of a litter from someone they like that isn't all spoken for.

Following a dozen Facebook pages for breeders you like, and hoping there is a posting won't cost anything and serendipity might strike.

Also 5 k OMG... Dog prices are nuts these days.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> puppy find


The Humane Society of the United States considers PuppyFind to be an outlet for puppy mill sales. Similar sites such as PuppySpot, Craigslist and kijiji (what puppy needs to be "rehomed" at 8 weeks old!), may also be outlets for breeders that no one with a conscience would willingly support.

This is not to say every seller there is such, but how will you tell until it's too late? One can say most anything online. The question is can you verify the truth of what they say?

Run.


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## minniemouse (Feb 2, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> The Humane Society of the United States considers PuppyFind to be an outlet for puppy mill sales. Similar sites such as PuppySpot, Craigslist and kijiji (what puppy needs to be "rehomed" at 8 weeks old!), may also be outlets for breeders that no one with a conscience would willingly support.
> 
> This is not to say every seller there is such, but how will you tell until it's too late? One can say most anything online. The question is can you verify the truth of what they say?
> 
> Run.


I agree. Not worth it even if you hear of buyers who happened to be happy with the outcome. Even if it takes longer to find the right breeder and puppy, we have to support breeders who only have the best interest of the puppies in their heart. Otherwise our money allows bad practices to continue and more harm to the pups. 😢


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I would add as a potential source: reputable breeder's Facebook pages.


This is a very good suggestion too. The caveat is that you will need to be able to determine _if _they're a reputable breeder.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

minniemouse said:


> Not worth it even if you hear of buyers who happened to be happy with the outcome.


A happy owner isn't necessarily an informed owner. Being informed keeps you out of those potential brokers of heartbreak.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jmar3298 said:


> Zamora 4K, Mi Vida 5K. They’re all pretty much around the same price.


I'm not doubting you, but I find this pricing just too high. There is no justification I can think of for this.

"With our new members running into sticker shock for a quality pup, and just plain outrageous prices for online pups that I feel horribly sorry for but could never support their manufacturer, I looked for some actual numbers and found a few sources...
The costs I'll be looking at are strictly related to care of the dam thru heat, pregnancy, birth, and puppies from the start of heat to the day the pups go to their new homes at 8 weeks (10 weeks for toys). This will not include the humans labor either.

BTW that total time is around 130 days, if my calculations are right...

After a bit of trying to get apples to apples I end up with pretty similar totals, although still only a rough comparison.
That said, I'm rounding down a bit to $4000 to produce a litter, not including:
the time put in by the breeder,
one time fees (OFA),
as needed fees (C-section),
and
including stud fees and averaging the litter size to 5 making the cost per puppy $800.

And that's not all, folks. There's also the cost of genetic diversity testing and I have no idea what that costs. The health testing is to reduce known problems from being passed down. The diversity testing is to help breeders restore the genetic spread thru the breed.

Back to the puppies, now. it's a very rough average cost of $800 to produce a puppy and we generally expect to see a quality breeder sell their pups for $1500-$2500 USD.
Set the average price to $2000, subtract the $800 and that leaves an average profit of $1200*
_*Updating these number to assume average price $3000 (still on the high side IMO), makes average profit of $2200 per pup. Factor that for yourself in the rest of this post. 
It is reasonable to assume that some costs have increased for them, as they have for us all so the profit is likely reduced from the $2200 by some percentage. _

If I assume that smaller breeders have 3 breeding females and they're breeding each 1 time a year with each dam occupied by pregnancy and puppies for 18-20 weeks of the year and an average of 5 pups per litter that's 15 pups per year. 15 x $1200 is $18000 per year.

Remember this is not including a lot of costs. That's a nice addition to a yearly income. It just might cover some of the costs left out like overhead, labor, costs involved in competing in various events, things like that.

Toy breeders might be taking in around $7200 on 6 puppies (3 breedings per year x 2 pups per litter), standard breeders might be taking in around $21,600 on 18 puppies (3 breedings x 6 pups per litter). Larger scale breeders will make more but their overhead will go up too.

To make a few points,
First, the profit on a litter may not be as much as imagined, especially for small scale breeders.
Second, if the majority of breeders are smaller scale breeders, that's going to make for a limited supply of pups.
Last, how can those breeders charging ridiculously exorbitant prices justify them?
Their costs are the same or less than the quality breeders.

Do their pups poop platinum and gold and diamonds?"

Here's the thread if you're interested in how I arrived at these numbers:








How Much Is That Poodle In The Window?


I don't think I've ever run across a thread or post where it's explained just how much it costs to make a puppy for us. This is my attempt :). With our new members running into sticker shock for a quality pup, and just plain outrageous prices for online pups that I feel horribly sorry for but...




www.poodleforum.com





*_*

Many puppy seekers understandably, but very mistakenly, think a breeder is a business. There are financial and other similarities but they are not the same.

A quality, conscientious breeder isn't doing this to make money, they're doing it to bring better poodles to the world. If they cover their full costs, they're doing good. Breeding is not usually their livelihood. It's their calling. Their other full time jobs are what pays their bills.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Rose n Poos said:


> A happy owner isn't necessarily an informed owner. Being informed keeps you out of those potential brokers of heartbreak.


Right. I know several very 'happy owners' that brag about their 'AKC registered poodles', who have absolutely no idea that they are ill bred and from backyard or mass poodle breeders. I no longer pay much attention to recommendations from 'happy owners'. They are similar in my mind to people who gloat about their $6 doodles claiming they are better than poodles. Very sad to say.

Rose n Poos, thank you so much for the hundreds of hours you have put into researching breeders, developing lists, and educating so many. Now, if buyers would just listen


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Hey guys! I just want to update everyone I’m still on the hunt with all this new information I am reading and receiving from everyone. I greatly appreciate it! I’ve opened up my search to be open to travel to my pup if it came down to it. Here are some things that I’m kinda ify about so far so one of the breeders said they’re working on OFA/CHIC and covid is slowing down that process? 
Also, I’m feeling as I’m looking for my pup I’m asking 21 questions lol or maybe more because I’m not seeing that information readily available me and I feel that people are getting bothered with my questions. I think that they think I’m a breeder because of the questions I’m asking but that’s not the case. I’m just a person who’s looking for a new healthy baby to love and don’t want to get scammed. I maybe a little picky in the size and color that I’m seeking but I think it’s only right to be. From the looks of it, I’m going to be paying a couple thousand. Just venting a little too.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Easiest answer first. If you find a quality, conscientious breeder offering pups for $2000, that's well within expected pricing. Breeders of varying quality asking up to and over $5000 - far too high. $2000-$3000, maybe now to $3500, is more the range that you should expect.

For the OFA and Covid holdups, I've heard a couple of members report that a breeder has told them that. Unless they're just starting out breeding, there should be other listings from their kennel on OFA, so that's what I'd look for.

If you have the registered names of any of their poodles, you can search OFA yourself and see if they have a history of testing their dogs. The kennel name is another way to search. I wouldn't place a deposit without eyes-on verification of the testing at the testing site.

Do that here:








Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Our dog search tool allows you to search parents and relatives of your potential new puppy by dog name, breed, disease type and more. Look up a dog today!




www.ofa.org





Or do an internet search of the dog's registered name, or of the kennel name and you might find DNA testing if they've set the info to public viewing at that testing site.

For the questions, it might be too many within a brief communication - are these emails or phone calls? - but overall, my feeling is that a breeder who works very hard to do the right things by testing will be pleased to find a potential new family that takes similar interest. I wouldn't expect that an experienced breeder would think you are too, just by your asking questions.


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## jmar3298 (Feb 6, 2021)

Thank you Rose n Poos! You’ve been extremely helpful! I appreciate it.


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

I just wanted to say its definitely worth the wait for the right breeder. I am now proud mama to my new baby Scout. She's from Gail Zamora. Gail is wonderful.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

babyscout said:


> I just wanted to say its definitely worth the wait for the right breeder. I am now proud mama to my new baby Scout. She's from Gail Zamora. Gail is wonderful.
> View attachment 474193


Congratulations! She is adorable!


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Congratulations! She is adorable!


thank you!!! i'm in love


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> 4k is still very high but I do know that prices in California can be 1k above normal. I would trust Zamora to not be greeder-pricing based on their standing in the breed community. Looking at another breeder referral list, I believe Mi Vida is another reputable California breeder that could have red toys.


To give some metric on California prices- My toy is show-quality, from a litter of 2, and I have full akc registration with a no-breed contract. He was $3500


EDIT: WOOOPS just realized I'm replying to a message from 2 weeks ago DOH Maybe this message will help someone else in California that wants to know about pricing.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am finding it so interesting that new 'buyers' find it so much easier to find back yard breeders, and bad breeders, than the breeders we admire and appreciate. Why is that? Is it because they know how to market to suseptible pet wanters? Rather scary.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

kontiki said:


> I am finding it so interesting that new 'buyers' find it so much easier to find back yard breeders, and bad breeders, than the breeders we admire and appreciate. Why is that? Is it because they know how to market to suseptible pet wanters? Rather scary.


I have been pondering this too and you know what, I totally get it. I totally get why the average person who isn't super dog saavy but maybe had a pup growing up or liked a cute breed on tv, would go to a slick puppy mill or a backyard breeder; because the entire process of going to a reputable breeder is kind of a drag. It takes a long time, it requires lots of conflicting research and advice, it's time consuming, it's not exciting, it's often inconvenient, it's very expensive, and when you want a baby NOW the waiting is pure torture.Add to this, If you're looking for a small breed puppy, expect to be waiting 1 year or more, and that's IF you can even get a breeder to email you back or pick up their phone. If you're a first time dog owner, probably no one is going to sell to you, not when they have loads of experienced pet, performance, and conformation homes to sell their precious babies to. Why would they? Bottom of the list you go. If you don't have very much money, say you're on a fixed income, or have kids, paying $2,000+ for a dog is going to be a hard pill to swallow. So when they see the $200 doggy in the window, that's super cute and they could "save" it from the pet store, they think it's a steal. I'm not saying any of this is right, I'm just trying to think from the perspective of someone that wants a dog but isn't engrossed in dogs, like kind of a low-information pet owner.

(now the people that pay 5,000 for designer mutts and still do the whole waitlist thing and all the not so fun stuff......I have no idea what's going on in there head lol)


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

But a lot of backyard breeders actually charge the same price or more as an excellent breeder does!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

duplicate - couldn't erase


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

kontiki said:


> But a lot of backyard breeders actually charge the same price or more as an excellent breeder does!


Yes but the difference is the dog is ready to go now, no questions asked. I think too the really expensive bybs and mills are regional (and not who the average puppy buyer goes for.) In Texas for example, there are plenty of “cheap” puppies available at flea markets, malls, pet stores, and fake rescues.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

@jmar3298 finally found my password again so I can post 😂. I don't think I've seen anyone refer you to the Poodle Club of San Diego? If you haven't yet, reaching out to them would be a good idea. There is also the Poodle Club of Central California.

You can double check the PCA website, but last I knew Mary Olund of Cabernet Poodles was the breeder referral person for west of the Mississippi. She would only refer to reputable breeders. She's up north of the Golden Gate and knows everyone 😊. I emailed with her some years back on a well bred Spoo someone was rehoming on CL, and she was lovely to me (the Spoo was not her breeding).

And then a few years later, I found my Oliver on CL. His first family was rehoming him, but in this case they were doing it with his breeder's knowledge. So case by case re CL 😊. Not a good place to get a puppy, but great in my case to provide a new home for a four-year-old Tpoo 🐩.

One more thing, or two maybe. Best not 21 questions at once. Grilling a responsible breeder out of the box may not be likely to create the mutual trust and genial relationship one wants with one's breeder. It's like sort of being suspicious out of the box. We are not doing good breeders a favor by buying; they are more granting us the favor by coming to believe we can offer deserving homes for their beloved puppies 😊💕. We get to join a new family in return and be mentored and helped. Maybe I think of it like the breeder is a senior professor with a world of knowledge, and we the puppy buyers are the college freshmen, and approach with care and caution. I mean, these breeders actively work with such types of professors even - look how they do all they can to save our breed with UC Davis and other august research institutions.

It is not we puppy buyers who are owed; this sort of breeder is clear it is their breed, their dogs, and the fancy which are owed. And, we can still get questions answered, just with a gentle approach. And many questions we can answer for ourselves, through reading at OFA and looking up show results, etc.

Ash's Mystical, along with others in the Las Vegas Poodle Club, could be a thought.


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

I have only had rescues before and this was my first experience with purchasing a puppy. I have to say, Gail Zamora is a dream. She was so knowledgeable and never bothered by my millions of questions about the puppies or breed. She always took the time to answer my questions and spent way more time replying to my emails and phone calls even after I brought Scout home. Even the way she arranges the pick up and her process of getting the pups used to you takes time but she clearly does this because she cares a lot about her pups, making them comfortable, and it matters to her where they go. Beyond that, I think she is a kind person and I am happy to support her as a breeder.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

babyscout said:


> I have only had rescues before and this was my first experience with purchasing a puppy. I have to say, Gail Zamora is a dream. She was so knowledgeable and never bothered by my millions of questions about the puppies or breed. She always took the time to answer my questions and spent way more time replying to my emails and phone calls even after I brought Scout home. Even the way she arranges the pick up and her process of getting the pups used to you takes time but she clearly does this because she cares a lot about her pups, making them comfortable, and it matters to her where they go. Beyond that, I think she is a kind person and I am happy to support her as a breeder.


Her team was always very kind to me when I'd stop by their bench section at GGKC with questions.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

@Streetcar Your observation about not doing 21 questions on the first call are spot on. It can come across poorly sometimes/often. It is a balance between trying to be a conscientious puppy buyer and understanding who you are talking to. I am never quite sure how to communicate this balance, but I think you did a very good job of it.


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

Is she your first poodle?


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

Rupert's Poodle said:


> Is she your first poodle?


This one is my first poodle. I’ve only had rescues and mutts before.


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

Sorry if you've said this elsewhere but how old is she? (How old when allowed to take home)


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