# Is this true?????



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I hope I'm wording this right ...
I was at an event last weekend and there was a breeder / professional groomer there with a brown, 2 years old and quite faded (lots of grey and very light brown color). She tried to tell me that originally her gal was as dark as mine, but faded because of grooming, that poodles lose pigment through repeated cuts????? Is this true? (This same kennel is telling others that it's sun fading, but the dog is faded a browny grey, not the sun damaged copper color Russell sports)
The concern I have is could I be causing fading by keeping my pup groomed? Just doesn't make sense, but I'm not a groomer or breeder :ahhhhh:
So many things I don't understand!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

No. |: Sounds like that breeder was trying to hide the fact that her dogs fade. Fading is genetic, some fade, some don't, regardless of how many times they are groomed. There is sun bleaching, but that turns black hair reddish and brown hair more orange.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Fading is genetic and has nothing to do with trimming. The majority of brown poodles do fade. It is an issue with that color in particular. If your dog was from nonfading parents that were brown or black there is a greater chance he won't fade. The fading gene is prevalent in poodles in America because of all the cross breeding of colors. In some countries you would never breed certain colors together, but some breeder do it willy nilly here. 

Browns usually start fading at 12-18 months old if they are going to fade. There is some variation with some fading earlier and some later, but at Russell's age many have begun showing signs of it. The cool red color on him is sunfading only.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What a whopper! I am surprised they could say that to you with a straight face.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I agree. That story was ridiculous. It is a way to hide and justify the fact that they have poorly bred fading browns. I think you should have called her on it. If you see her again, maybe you could because they should not be spreading falsehoods, but owning up to the fact their dogs fade. It doesn't mean they aren't great dogs, but probably dogs that shouldn't be bred. 

Some nice browns fade to a lovely chocolate milk color. Some are bad browns with lots of white hairs - grizzled. Some turn a very off color with variations in color, which is what it sounds like that poodle did. Some turn Cafe Au Lait like Chocolate Millie's girl (which is a recognized separate color). It is an entirely different shade, but starts out brown. 

If Russell is a nonfading brown you got lucky! Most do fade. I love the dark brown poodles. When I talked to my breeder about my puppy getting darker instead of lighter, she mentioned that her brown sister was showing no signs of fading. Their parents were nonfading blacks. 

What color were Russell's parents? Do you know if they were faded? He is a wonderful dark chocolate brown right now. You can look at his muzzle and see if it looks any lighter to you. Fading often starts on the muzzle. Some faded browns turn a beautiful taupe color, hardly a fault in my eyes.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

I am far from an expert, but from what I have learned, most poodle colors do something called "clearing" which is where they just get lighter, or fade, as they mature. So, a lot of puppies will be born black, but fade to silver. Or in this persons case, was born a dark brown but faded to the color you described. It's not the grooming that specifically caused it to happen, just that when you cut off the hair it can reveal the lightened color that is growing out. Grooming wouldn't cause Russell to fade, but if he were to start fading you would see it more when you get him groomed because all of the darker hair was cut off. I'm not sure why that person told you it like that, I can understand explaining it that was to maybe a small child, but it just seems silly. And like you said, I'm pretty sure the sun wouldn't cause graying.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

muffin said:


> I am far from an expert, but from what I have learned, most poodle colors do something called "clearing" which is where they just get lighter, or fade, as they mature. So, a lot of puppies will be born black, but fade to silver. Or in this persons case, was born a dark brown but faded to the color you described.


Almost true, except that most poodles do not clear. Silvers, blues, cafes and silver beiges clear. The other colors fade and/or grizzle or silver out.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodlePowerBC said:


> I hope I'm wording this right ...
> I was at an event last weekend and there was a breeder / professional groomer there with a brown, 2 years old and quite faded (lots of grey and very light brown color). She tried to tell me that originally her gal was as dark as mine, but faded because of grooming, that poodles lose pigment through repeated cuts????? Is this true? (This same kennel is telling others that it's sun fading, but the dog is faded a browny grey, not the sun damaged copper color Russell sports)
> The concern I have is could I be causing fading by keeping my pup groomed? Just doesn't make sense, but I'm not a groomer or breeder :ahhhhh:
> So many things I don't understand!


You know, there are a lot of otherwise seemingly intelligent people who claim this. It baffles my mind that someone could _actually_ think that grooming could alter a dog's genetically predetermined evolution of color. The ONLY impact that grooming will have on a dog's fading is that it will make the fading more EVIDENT by removing the older hair.

A dog might _seem_ to be fading more quickly if they are clipped more often or very close to the skin. However, this is an illusion. By clipping the hair, the lighter hair at the root is able to be more evident sooner.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't consider a poodle to be poorly bred just because it faded, the conformation, temperament, and health testing can be just fine on a faded poodle. 

http://www.beauvoirpoodles.com/about.html

Check out Delilah for an example. She started out pretty dark, but faded as she aged. Browns can fade to Silver Beige, or Cafe au Lait. Though silver beige fades to almost a cream color.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I wouldn't consider a poodle to be poorly bred just because it faded, the conformation, temperament, and health testing can be just fine on a faded poodle.
> 
> http://www.beauvoirpoodles.com/about.html
> 
> Check out Delilah for an example. She started out pretty dark, but faded as she aged. Browns can fade to Silver Beige, or Cafe au Lait. Though silver beige fades to almost a cream color.



Couldn't agree more, Fluffyspoos! I was going to comment on that too. It does not matter how well bed a brown poodle is, chances are it will fade to some degree.

Delilah is an excellent example of a cafe au lait who started out dark brown and cleared to her final color. Fading, clearing, grizzling, etc. are not indicative of poor breeding. In fact, a GOOD breeder, will put color LAST on their list.

Millie, too, is an example of a well bred brown poodle who has drastically lightened. I will never forget when I took her with me to a dog show (it was "pet" friendly) and a random lady showing another breed told me how interesting Millie's color and told me that while pretty, she could never show because of her color. I set this lady straight by telling her that Millie's sire is the SAME color and finished in 3 weekends! 

If you speak with a GOOD breeder, (who is also honest), they will likely tell you that color is last on their list. I have asked several GOOD breeders about whether their blacks/browns hold their color. Their response? "Well, let's just say health, temperament, structure, etc. are what I focus on most..."


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Almost true, except that most poodles do not clear. Silvers, blues, cafes and silver beiges clear. The other colors fade and/or grizzle or silver out.


Ah, thank you for _clearing_ that up! :wink: When I was looking up information about apricots they mentioned the clearing so I just assumed any type of fading was considered clearing lol!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

muffin said:


> Ah, thank you for _clearing_ that up! :wink: When I was looking up information about apricots they mentioned the clearing so I just assumed any type of fading was considered clearing lol!


I think it is used anytime a dog completely "clears" to a new color. Whether that be an apricot that "clears" to a white color, or a red that "clears" to an apricot color. Or a brown that "clears" to a silver beige color or cafe color. Etc.

The thing is, most of the time poodles that ligthen don't "clear". They often grizzle.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> They often grizzle.


GAAAAAAACK!!! Gristle??? Please! . . . . my Spuddie is 'silvering'!!  lol


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think it is used anytime a dog completely "clears" to a new color. Whether that be an apricot that "clears" to a white color, or a red that "clears" to an apricot color. Or a brown that "clears" to a silver beige color or cafe color. Etc.
> 
> The thing is, most of the time poodles that ligthen don't "clear". They often grizzle.


That actually makes a lot of sense! Thanks, ChocolateMillie!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

And, I hear it used most when someone already knows that their dog will clear. For example, if you own a silver, you KNOW your dog will clear. If you own a black dog that fades, well, I wouldn't call that clearing.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

outwest said:


> What color were Russell's parents? Do you know if they were faded? He is a wonderful dark chocolate brown right now. You can look at his muzzle and see if it looks any lighter to you. Fading often starts on the muzzle.


Thanks everyone!!!! Great info, it's kinda what I figured.
The pic of Russell's mother was taken while she was carrying him  (I believe she was over 5 years old and the pic of his father was at about the same age.
So far his muzzle is VERY dark when freshly shaved, but does lighten up between shavings. He will be a year on the 15th and has a few grey hairs on his back ... but the brown is still very dark. (Forgive the retriever hairs in the pic of his coat ... had a great time at the dog park and needs to be brushed out lol)
It doesn't really matter ... I love him to pieces now and I will love him to pieces if he is grey, cafe or purple:act-up:


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Also, if a dog of color gets injured, the hair will grow back pretty much in the state it was as a puppy; the color and the more straight hair. Eventually the hair will return to the norm of the coat, but if say, my Vienna gets a cut (my cream) or an injury, the hair grows back apricot until the wound is totally healed. A silver will have black hair growing, and a cafe/silver beige will have the dark brown.

Oh yeah, I also wanted to say that a good breeder will admit to their dogs fading, not cover it up by making excuses that are totally untrue.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

To me color is last on my list. Health, temperment, intellegence ect. is far more important than color. Swizzle will end up being a plat. gray my husband's least favorite color. He thinks they look old. I like a nice black, brown or dark red. We both decided to focus on the other attributes and so now we have a gray poodle. He is clearning and looks a little like a skunk now as he has a line of darker fur down his spine. His belly and muzzle are a very pretty plat. gray (I am warming to the color.) I don't find different shades of brown to be a fault, many are quite stunning. Now after seeing the pictures posted on the forum I see gorgeous examples of poodles in every color and I would be hard pressed to have a favorite color now.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

Fading or non-fading genes aside, it's not like you can AVOID grooming a poodle in hopes of not harming their coloring!

Shaving _can_ change/fade coat color in other breeds, specifically wirehaired dogs like terriers, which is part of why they are hand stripped in the show ring (the other part is because shaving that hair type actually does damage the correct wire coat). But that is an entirely different type of hair and geneology than what you see in poodles. Poodle hair is hair; you cut it, and it grows right back.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think it is used anytime a dog completely "clears" to a new color. Whether that be an apricot that "clears" to a white color, or a red that "clears" to an apricot color. Or a brown that "clears" to a silver beige color or cafe color. Etc.
> 
> The thing is, most of the time poodles that ligthen don't "clear". They often grizzle.


Mine has gotten darker, not lighter, so not all poodles lighten as they age. I agree this is not the norm. She may lighten yet as she is still under a year old. 

There are browns that do not fade, just not many of them. Most eventually lighten, but some are well over 5 years old before they begin to lighten. Browns are a tricky color to breed for if you want them to stay dark brown. Many blacks do not fade, yet. 

If a person wants to breed show poodles, they will take color into consideration. Other things are far more important than color (structure, health, temperment), but color does seem important in the show ring and is listed in the standard ('clear' colors are preferred). Black and white dogs far exceed the number of colored poodles shown. It isn't that the other colors can't and don't win, it is just harder. Hopefully, that will change as time goes on and colored poodles are accepted more and more.

I love that poodles come in so many colors and shades. I wish the show ring reflected all the glorious colors there are because I, too, think color is the least important thing about a poodle. Tell that to those judges, though. Maybe where you are located colors are more represented in the ring. Here, black or white prevail. I have seen brown, but they are not faded.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Mine has gotten darker, not lighter, so not all poodles lighten as they age. I agree this is not the norm. She may lighten yet as she is still under a year old.
> 
> There are browns that do not fade, just not many of them. Most eventually lighten, but some are well over 5 years old before they begin to lighten. Browns are a tricky color to breed for if you want them to stay dark brown. Many blacks do not fade, yet.


Outwest, I think you might be missing the point a little. The point was that most poodles will lighten in some way, whether it be grizzling, fading, etc. But, clearing applies to when the coat clears from the root to a lighter color.

In the US, most blacks do not stay inky black, either. I sure lucked out with Henry!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Outwest, I think you might be missing the point a little. The point was that most poodles will lighten in some way, whether it be grizzling, fading, etc. But, clearing applies to when the coat clears from the root to a lighter color.
> 
> *In the US, most blacks do not stay inky black, either. I sure lucked out with Henry!*


I lucked out with Alexander the Great too. He's still _black_-black except for his old-man muzzle and a few white hairs throughout his coat. He turned 10 in September so that's to be expected. But he's still so black I often lose him in the dark or if he's lying on the black dog bed.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I do love a nice inky black and have noticed (and admired Henry and Alexander the G.) coloring. I have a question about clearing with a gray. Swizzle is suppose to become a plat. gray (both his parents are that color). Right now his belly and his muzzle are a really pretty plat. gray and the rest of him is darker with some plat. gray mixed in. Will all of him turn the same color as his belly and muzzle or is it possible that while those remain light that the rest of him could be a darker gray? I am impatient for adult hair although for the last few days his hair has gotten lots of knots - could this signal the change from a puppy coat?


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> I do love a nice inky black and have noticed (and admired Henry and Alexander the G.) coloring. I have a question about clearing with a gray. Swizzle is suppose to become a plat. gray (both his parents are that color). Right now his belly and his muzzle are a really pretty plat. gray and the rest of him is darker with some plat. gray mixed in. Will all of him turn the same color as his belly and muzzle or is it possible that while those remain light that the rest of him could be a darker gray? I am impatient for adult hair although for the last few days his hair has gotten lots of knots - could this signal the change from a puppy coat?


Thank you! 

Can you post a recent picture of Swizzle or direct me to one in the pic thread? And remind me again how old he is right now? 

Merlin is a silver but he's not all one color. His tail pom and ears are very dark and he has darker hairs throughout his coat. It's possible Swizzle could retain some of the darker hairs, but I'm far from a color expert. I'm not even a color 'amateur.' 

I think the coat change usually occurs around 9 months of age, but there are exceptions. I do know that frequent matting is a sign! I don't envy you.


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