# What is the best carb/protein/fat ratio



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

You could look at the AAFCO guidelines, but I always fear they are into minimising expensive ingredients, rather than necessarily optimising nutrition (something you will be well aware of if you have been researching the difference between the optimal diet for cats and the contents of most "complete" cat foods!).


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm glad you asked - I don't know the answer. I only have my personal experience that some of the foods on the market were too high protein and fat without enough fiber for my dog.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I, personally, feed a food which is an all life stages food and which is very high in protein. It has worked well for us. I fed EVO to Iris for her whole life, puppy to senior, age 14. Now I have fed it to Poppy for 1 1/2 yrs. she also is thriving on it. For a short while, as a pup, I fed her Origen which is lower protein. She was eating, free feeding, 4 cups a day and still hungry. Her poop was sort of soft and she was often gassy. All of that changed when I changed her food.

When I switched her to EVO she dropped consumption to 1 1/2 to 2 cups per day and not acting like she is starving. EVO is $70 a 28# bag at our local store. It seems horribly expensive, but Poppy takes 70 days to eat a bag of food, Imkept track, and that's just $1 a day for a premium food. If you do auto ship with Chewy it's $60 a bag.

Here is an article about low protein vs high protein foods. Very interesting. 

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/low-protein-dog-foods/

At the time I chose EVO I worked for a local pet food store, attended lots of food seminars and have been lucky enough to tour the manufacturing plant where EVO is made....it was amazing!

My vet has always been oleased with the fitness and condition of both Iris and now Poppy, as a result of the food they are eating. He often comments on how he has to fight so many obesity related diseases caused by poor food choices that his clients make for their dogs.

Best of luck with your research and dog. I think that every manufacturer and lots of researchers will have varying opinions of what the right protein/carb/fat ratios in foods should be. At the time EVO was developed it was developed based on the "evolutionary diet" of the wolf, using the percentages of protein, fat, carbs, that would be present in a diet that they would eat in the wild. At least that is how it was presented to us during seminars. Their web site gives very specific information about content and analysis of their foods. California Natural, which was developed and manufactured by the same company as EVO, also has similar detailed info on their web site. You can also find information on whaere each of their ingredients is sourced. I like that I can find that information about Poppy's food.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

How come you have decided to keep Meek on the LBP food until 2? Just curious as to the rational on that. The most common thing is to feed a balanced all-life-stages from the beginning or to switch to ALS or maintenance at about a year.

While this doesn't explain the exact ratio, I found these articles that do a pretty good job of summarizing contributing factors to stones and provide (additional) sources:
DogAware.com Articles: Struvite Crystals & Stones
DogAware.com Articles: Calcium Oxalate Stones

Both say a low protein diet is good for dealing with dissolving stones, but shouldn't be used normally since it is not nutritionally complete. Ample water intake, avoiding carbs (particularly ones high in oxalate - list provided at link), and providing a food with a balanced calciumhoshorus ratio are my take home points from the link. They discuss supplements that are helpful in homemade diets as well.

https://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/ideal-dog-food/ 
Presents ranges of commercial dog food % on P/F/C comparing to a "wolf ancestral diet", which is much higher in fat and protein. Dogs aren't wolves and have evolved, but an interesting point. 

I think rather than worry about the ratio, I would try to make sure the quality of the food is the best possible. Better foods are going to have purer (meat) protein sources and avoid grain carbohydrates.

Most healthy dogs can handle higher protein foods. But are they necessary? Puppies need more protein because they are growing; competitive sport dogs and working dogs (retrievers/herders/etc) need more protein because they are working hard and need the protein to maintain muscles. A couch potato dog certainly won't require a large amount of protein, comparatively. So what you feed will largely be based on a dog's lifestyle and life stage. If there is excessive protein fed, it will be broken down, excreted by the dog and not used or converted to calories/fat. So if you are feeding a 40% protein and your dog can only use the equivalent of a 30% ration, you are paying a lot for the extra protein that your dog isn't able to use. AAFCO says 18% dm protein is the minimum for maintenance. 5.5% for fat. Whenever possible feed meat proteins; they are easier for dogs to digest.

This site has a nice table of protein and fat inclusions for various dog lifestyles:
Dog Food FAQs: Protein

Growth Stage Protein	Fat
Puppy 22-32%	10-25%
Adult Dog 15-30%	10-20%
Performance Dog	22-32%	15-40%
Racing Dog 28-34%	Greater than 50%
Lactating Dog 25-35%	Greater or equal to 20%

For fat, they need enough, but too much can lead to pancreatitis. Another not fun health concern. 

Here's a good article discussing the pros and cons of feeding carbs:
https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_10/features/Carbohydrates-and-Your-Dog_20103-1.html

I'm not sure there is a golden ratio out there as a lot of the information I'm reading on nutrition suggests certain levels of nutrients based on certain lifestyle factors and how your individual dog processes ingredients.

If Meek is and continues to be a generally active and healthy spoo, I think I would set my parameters as good quality food (4-5* dogfoodadvisor), mostly meat protein, protein levels between 25-35% ish, carb levels between 20% and 40% with mostly complex carbs, and fat around 20-25%. If and when there are dietary and health issues, then you can adjust the diet to the issue.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with galofpink and also wonder why you think you need to feed puppy stage until age two. I don't think that is needed. I would also aim for the highest quality food you can afford and just get the general range of protein and fat as outlined in galofpink's reply. The other thing to think of is switch to a home made diet that is nutritionally complete. Since I wanted to continue to feed our three dogs the same food and since they each had different assortments of intolerances indicated by NutriScan testing I was not able to find a commercial diet that worked for all of them, but since I have been cooking both Lily and Peeves have gotten rid of urinary crystals and Javelin has stopped producing rivers of ear wax.


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## Tifamaroo (Jan 17, 2017)

Before we picked up meek, we purchased some food at a store. The sales person recommended I stick with the LBP food due to his breed. They said LBP was formulated for dogs who's growth take longer, and it helps build up their bone strength, prevent hip dysplasia, etc. She also mentioned that it would help reduce tension on his joints during his growth.

I guess I just figured the puppy phase is 2 years for spoos since I read that it can take up to that long for their bones to finish growing/plates to place themselves.

On a side note, I usually stick with these brands: LBP blue wilderness, LBP wellness, LBP Fromm Gold. We are also planning on trying LBP Acana and LBP Orijen since the new pet supply store in town has it in stock. These are all grain free due to Meek's allergy to corn.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

While it can take up to 2 years for the growth plates to close the major amount of growing is over with for most spoos between 10 to 12 months, and generally slows down a bit before then. The LBP formulas are most useful when the pup is growing like a weed and you want the balance in that formula to help balance bone and muscle growth. My vet said we could switch to adult or all life stages at around 8 months.


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## Tifamaroo (Jan 17, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> While it can take up to 2 years for the growth plates to close the major amount of growing is over with for most spoos between 10 to 12 months, and generally slows down a bit before then. The LBP formulas are most useful when the pup is growing like a weed and you want the balance in that formula to help balance bone and muscle growth. My vet said we could switch to adult or all life stages at around 8 months.


Do you think it would do any harm to continue on the LBP until the age of 2? He is currently 1 yr and 3 months.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Very interesting article about carbs in Whole Dog Journal posted by Galofpink above. The following two paragraphs suggest that carbs are fine for dogs, and that there is no "correct" ratio. 

As we mentioned before, dogs have no nutritional requirement for dietary carbohydrates. They can get everything they need from a diet that contains only protein and fat. Energy metabolism in the dog can be based on fat oxidation and the breakdown of protein to produce glucose.

There are two main reasons why we feed carbs to dogs. The first reason is because we can. Dogs can utilize just about anything we feed them; their digestive tracts are extremely versatile. The second reason is economic; fat and protein sources are much more expensive than carbohydrates.

My dogs eat mostly home-cooked food that includes a lot of carbs, including grains. Their favorites are potatoes, bread and pasta. They occasionally get some rice or millet or quinoa. But potatoes, bread and pasta are their favorites. They each get about 1/4 to 1/3 pound of meat, fish or eggs each day. I sometimes include veggies, but Cammie and Sam are not big veggie lovers. Bob used to love raw bell peppers or apples. But Cammie and Sam don't. My dogs are doing very well on this diet, and I trust the ingredients much more than I trust commercial dog food. All of my meat is purchased directly from farmers who raise their animals humanely.

PS. My dogs also get a calcium supplement.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

For most formulas the difference between puppy and adult food is that puppy food is higher in protein, fat and calories/same volume or weight. Supplements/vitamins/minerals are usually more restricted in puppy foods as well, but that usually not a major consideration.

So given your dog is healthy (no pancreatitis issues -higher fat an issue or kidney issues-high protein an issue) and weight gain isn’t an issue, then puppy food shouldn’t harm your dog.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

So I’ve been on a bunch of dog foods (orijen, Acana regional, honest kitchen, Wellness Core, blue buffalo wilderness) and decided to settle on Merrick salmon because the sweet potato really help with their digestion. Acana is probably my favorite but Lucky can’t have it. 


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