# Positive exercises for channeling prey drive



## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

I realize this may have been better in the obedience section, but I was thinking that it applies to hunting and maybe some of you who engage in the sport might know the most about this particular issue.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Mine don't have a prey drive that is quite that strong, but as adolescents would take off after rabbits and become deaf to everything except the chase. Experiments with cats have shown that when a cat is completely focussed on prey it does not simply ignore other sounds, it does not hear them, and I am sure dogs are the same (humans certainly are - try talking to someone completely absorbed in an exciting book!). I dealt with it by watching for the first alert moment, before they had focussed, and calling them to me for a really good treat and exciting game, rather like the Look at That game. The recall once more became the predictor of really good stuff (we had got a bit slack because they came so readily as puppies). I was very careful not to let them off lead in areas where there were rabbits for a while, unless the field was safe and enclosed and I could let them chase until all the rabbits were back in their burrows. It worked - there was a very proud day when a rabbit dashed across a path where no rabbit had ever been seen before, they chased it for a few yards, and then came back when called!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Enjoy: 

The Possibilities in Dog Training | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog



Here's a demonstration:









This is only a snippet from this article. I_ highly_ recommend you read the whole thing. On Shoddy Clicker Training and the Importance of Premack | Dog Star Daily



> The Premack Principle states that more probable behaviors (squirrel chase) will reinforce less probable behaviors (look away from squirrel and at mom). In laymen's terms, "if you eat your brocolli, you can have your ice cream."
> 
> Don't feel bad about being the brocolli. I'm the brocolli too. We're all the brocolli when it comes to competing with prey distractions.
> 
> ...


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Just keep working on getting a rock solid recall. I liked Ian Dunbar's method of calling your dog to check in with you, treating and releasing. Recall always means praise or a treat and not necessarily the end of fun. When Buck is in one of his battles to the faux death of an opossum, he doesn't hear a thing. Fortunately this happens in a large fenced yard. I would use a long line in the forest for quite a while. Buck is edging toward maturity at 3. I don't know if I would trust him off leash in the forest. He could ran a long way if he was in a red zone.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Is he a driven retriever as well? If so, then I would build on that. Right now it sounds like he is acting more like a beagle than a lab, and as you noted, that can be dangerous. 

One of the most challenging aspects of field/upland training is being able to call a dog off of a bird, but it is necessary. I just work to make it clear that these are my birds/toys, my game, my rules. Self-control in the presence of birds is part of training, be it steadiness on the line or coming back when called. I would work with training objects (birds, dokkens, feathers, dummies) with him on a line. 

My friend and I worked last week on an exercise that encourages a dog to quarter (systematically sweep a field for birds) by walking parallel to each other, calling the dog, and then tossing a bird. Apart from encouraging the dog to move and quarter, it reminds him that coming when called makes magical things happen.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Play tug with him. He will associate you with the fun of a very wonderful game.

I would also seriously consider tracking and/or nosework.


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

Thanks for the input so far.

Mfmst, We have practiced treat and release recall with Puffy since he was a baby. We do it on almost every walk and so it's been a consistent factor in his upbringing. In that sense, his recall has always been great and we will continue to practice as we have. It's definitely the first step in all of this, although the hunting instinct opens up an entirely new can of worms.

It is recent that his prey and track drive seems to be waking up, and if he sees an animal or picks up a scent he will go immediately into the red zone. There is no brief in between state where I can snap him out of it. At the moment, the situation seems to exist in a separate universe from all other recall situations. It's like he is possessed by a spirit. I think it's the case that (at this point in the game) the dog really does not hear a thing in these moments, and I have to find a way to get through to him. No treat or toy could ever persuade him to look away. 

Fortunately, this frenzy usually happens when he is on a leash as we generally use the long leash in the forest, but I can see how intense it is just on the end of the leash and I would like to find a way to deal with it now that it is beginning, as opposed to in a year when it is out of control. He already got away from us once and we were using the leash at the time. 

So I gather that we have to build it up somehow and give him a "tolerance" to these birds and rabbits. Verve, I like the idea of using decoys and feathers. I haven't done that. And we need to practice in the presence of real birds or rabbits. That's going to be hard!! Obviously, they usually leave when they see us coming, and at this point in time the dog doesn't see birds unless they are pretty close. Although, at the rate he is going he will probably be able to spot them from a mile away soon enough.

He is already great with tug, release and retrieve. This is his favorite game and he has been solid with tug and release followed by a retrieve since he was 5 months old. But if there is a bird around, the beloved tug toy might as well not exist. I can see how this reinforcing tug behavior could eventually build up to other things, however.

Poodlebeguiled, I read the premack article and it's a good point that expecting a dog to recall mid-chase is like world champion obedience level stuff. It's way beyond any regular practiced recall. We can definitely build some of those principles into his tug and release game which we play almost every day as it is, and then maybe build it up to something we do near birds etc. if the birds will ever let us near. (BTW I would never click a dog for taking off and I would not punish him on the return despite the fact that it is tempting to yell at him. I refrain.)

Lily cd re, I think that at the end of the day we will have to get into tracking and nose work. These things are obviously very rewarding for him, so it would be nice to have a safe and constructive hobby where he can have fun with it. 

Is there also something like chasing a fake rabbit around a track, kind of like dog racing? I could swear someone once mentioned this dog hobby to me, but I don't really know a lot about all of the hobbies out there beyond the basics. 

There is still a long way to go.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

PuffDaddy said:


> Thanks for the input so far.
> 
> Is there also something like chasing a fake rabbit around a track, kind of like dog racing? I could swear someone once mentioned this dog hobby to me, but I don't really know a lot about all of the hobbies out there beyond the basics.


Lure coursing is a chase around an open field, with several zig zags, following a lure. Dogs must be at least a year old to participate so they won't damage bones. My boy's dam loves this sport and I expect him to love it when we try at 18 months. Funny enough, both my spoo and beagle-rat terrier mix enjoy tracking and chasing little creatures in and out of our yard, however, the beagle stopped midway through the lure course. To sniff!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

PuffDaddy said:


> Thanks for the input so far.
> 
> Mfmst, We have practiced treat and release recall with Puffy since he was a baby. We do it on almost every walk and so it's been a consistent factor in his upbringing. In that sense, his recall has always been great and we will continue to practice as we have.* It's definitely the first step in all of this, although the hunting instinct opens up an entirely new can of worms.
> 
> ...



You described an intense prey drive very well. My Doberman had a stupendous recall. We hiked off leash in the mountains where I use to live every day and we practiced the recall...with him and the other dogs...like you describe. The dogs learned to not only come when cued immediately, but also to come when not cued...spontaneously to "check in." They'd come for a treat, then get released. But this reliable, prompt recall, that didn't fail with most distractions was useless in the face of prey like deer. 

So, the next step was utilizing the Premack principle in practice. It required a helper, a 5 gal. bucket, a rope and faux prey. The faux prey (stuffy with scent on it that you can buy) would wiggle and "run" by the helper to entice the dog. The dog would be called to come. If there was no compliance, the bucket went over the prey and there was no response by anyone...no scolding, no attention at all. We'd wait. When the dog finally complied and came to me in spite of the enticement, he was rewarded by being turned loose to go play with the prey which became _very_ exciting and "alive." Running with it, dragging it by the rope. It would bounce along the ground and then he could play with it for a moment or two. Plus treats. All kinds of good things happened when he came first. _You leave that prey alone and come first. Then you can have it. _I did allow him to chase squirrels. That was used later as practice in real life. He never caught one. But he would come mid chase of deer. And did on two occasions. Once there were 4 deer together. In north Idaho, if your dog chases deer, you can be in real trouble. So, that was important.

So, simply getting a very reliable recall on a dog is not always enough. You need some pro-active training that is relevant to the situations that might come up.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I second Lily's suggestion for tracking. It is a very safe game that my dogs LOVE. It is not time or land-intensive at first, and you can make a lot of progress by yourself. I would focus more on games like tracking that emphasize the cooperative nature of his working drive, where he works WITH you, rather than lure coursing. 

I like a book on puppy tracking called Try Tracking. Other books can get a bit intense, and this books gives you the basics on getting started. There is also a Yahoo poodle tracking group that is very quiet, but which will offer terrific advice and support when you ask.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Verve that book is a great way to get started with tracking. I am also doing a Denise Fenzi Dog Sports Academy tracking class right now. This is the first time I am doing Fenzi. I am liking it.

We took one shot at lure coursing with Lily and Peeves and frankly it scared both me and BF in terms of the potential for injury. We were waiting for our turn (way too long IMO, but better for us in the long run) at a fun lure coursing event run by the local sight hound club. We saw several dogs get hurt, one badly enough that she was carried to her owner's car on their way to vet ER and decided to leave without letting our dogs run.


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

*How to WAIT until release during a fetch game?*

Thanks for all of the information here. I had no idea that luring could be such a dangerous activity! That's something to think about.

This thread inspired me to realize that it could be useful add a "wait" to a fetch. I don't know how to do that, but it seems like a waiting for a queue before dashing after something that is already in motion is a good step towards better impulse control, and could be useful for any dog to learn. 

Right now, Puffy can fetch, bring back, let go on queue, move out of the way and wait until I throw it. He can also play tug and and release quickly on queue, wait until I say "get it" to tug again on queue. If I start walking and leave the ball he can pick it up and "carry" it if I ask him to. He is pretty solid with all that. 

So, many of the basic commands for fetch and tug are already present, and he also has a good concept of waiting for things if I ask him to. He practices waiting until released in a variety of low excitement every day situations where his first impulse might be to dash on ahead (the door, the elevator). He is very respectful about waiting to eat food until I tell him to go for it (and he LOVES food) But he could surely bring all this up to the next level. 

So, how do we build waiting into a fetch game where he is very excited to go after the ball? I would like to teach him to wait until AFTER I throw or kick the ball, and then only release when I tell him to. I have seen this in obedience trials, and also in one of the videos that poodlebeguiled linked to where there was a young border collie.

I tried it the other night, and his urge to run the second I kick or throw the ball is too strong (understandably, this is how he learned the game up until this point.)

The only thing I knew was to physically hold his harness until he stopped pulling, then have him wait a second on his own accord once relaxed, and THEN allow him to go for the ball. This felt a bit clumsy, and I kept thinking that there must be a smarter way to teach this new challenge. 

I then tried just asking him to sit before I kick the ball. When he is all revved up for chase and fetch this is challenging enough for him, but he can do it eventually. 

I want him to learn to see the ball flying off, but know that he can't chase it until I give the command. That is above my head, but I can imagine it could be a good addition to his routine considering the situation; learning to wait even when you have the impulse to run after something. 

What do you guys think? Does anyone have some steps for teaching the "throw, WAIT, then go get it"? 

I just learned today that his sister is also taking off obsessively after rabbits just in the last week and now needs some special training. It seems to run strong in the family. Their father the international conformation champion recently ended up "in jail" (county pound) for taking off all day after a fox. He was caught by animal control fortunately and impounded. 

Father has a very serious haircut coupled with a very noble, controlled attitude which makes him appear quite distinguished and fancy...arrested and thrown into the local "jail" for misconduct. Made me laugh a bit.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would put a pull tab on Puffy's collar so you can hold him at your side when the ball is thrown. He will try to take off, but won't succeed. Make him wait until you feel the tension go off the tab and/or seeing him offer attention to you before sending him to take the ball. He will figure out the new way the game is played pretty quickly. Then add your wait word when you get ready to throw and then add a release word to fetch.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

I found a good method that works for me, it's one of my dogs favourite games. I got the inspiration from the following video from YouTube, its about teaching your dog a solid stay when there are distractions and it so happens the distractions that this dog trainer uses are toys/balls being thrown on the floor! The trainer starts off using a squeaky toy for distraction, starting off at a very close distance to the dog and working on getting the dog to stay and focus on him when the toy is being held and squeeked, then working up to throwing the toy (he varies the toys), starting with a very short distance whilst getting the dog to 'stay' and look at him, then moving up to longer distances. The difference is that I went on to add a release command to let Gustav go and fetch the toy/ball. I would hold the ball, ask him to 'stay' just before I threw it, then give the release command when he is allowed to go after the ball. He loves this game and it gets him really focused on me, waiting for the release so he can go and fetch the ball and bring it back for another go!

https://youtu.be/2-_rxxKxseU


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

Thanks a lot for the tips! 

Verve and lily, I found 'Try Tracking' on Kindle through amazon and I already bought it due to your recommendations. I am looking forward to starting to read it and trying it out. I am sure Puffy will be very happy to learn some new things, as he is quite an eager student who loves a new lesson. 

UKpoodle, thank you, I love Zac George. I always get a chuckle and a kick out of his enthusiasm for dog training, and he has nice ideas for building behaviors up. I have had a lot of success with his methods for many different things, and have been guilty of binge watching his videos once or twice. hehe. Thanks for showing me this one in particular! I think I have seen it before and totally forgot about it. I notice that for Puff the act of building up to a new behavior one fun step at a time like this has always been very helpful.

I learned from Zac George about first teaching a solid "Tug and let go" in order to build up to a solid game of fetch like I was describing before. It was awesome how well it worked, and a lot of people have been very impressed that Puffy is so good at 'let go' and fetch and "bring back" etc. They seem to think he is a natural talent, but it's only because I taught him step by step according to those Zac George videos. It has been very valuable in getting him enough exercise, and it's also something fun and structured that we can do together. 

Especially now that I have to keep Puffy on the long leash while on walks, a good game of fetch is very useful to tire him out without unleashing him. 

Thanks!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A trainer who I think is fantastic...trains using my same philosophy...is Kiko pup. She has tons of very helpful You tube videos. She is really, really a cut above the rest.


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

For sure! She is quite advanced and also shows you how to build into a behavior nicely. I have had seen almost all of her videos as well, and one can learn an awful lot from her. She also covers so many topics. Her channel is a really nice resource.


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

That reminds me that kikopup has good videos on building up a stay with distractions like flying toys etc. I saw these many months ago, but now that the issue is relevant in a new way it is time to revisit them.

I remember that I used these videos as my model to teach Puffy a basic sit when he was a baby and it worked great. But there are more advanced aspects involved in the training which we should revisit and focus on at this point. 

I think these videos are helpful to anyone who wants a very solid stay, it starts very basic and works up.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Who is Puffy's sire? I like knowing which lines have retained strong working drive!


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

hehe! Verve, I must say that father (Vinski) never worked on his hunting instincts and spent his time in the confirmation ring instead, so who knows if he would actually make a great working dog if someone had trained him to do so! But we can say that him and some of his kids have a very strong drive for going after the scent and sight of prey animals just based on the stories we know. They are also all quite pretty to look at and have nice temperaments.


The link below has a pic of him with his full name. His heritage is largely US based with some German and middle Europe thrown in there if I recall correctly. He was shipped to Finland from Germany when he was 5 months old and is now a retired international champion. I wonder what would have been if his instincts had been channeled? who knows for sure, but I would like to work with Puff over time and see were it goes.

Here's the link to the old jailbird himself:

Vinzentinus vom Strahlenden Sternchen - Poodles In Scandinavia


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Mia is six and only in the last year or so have I been able to call her off of a chase. We hike off-lead regularly, covering long distances in unpopulated areas, and so we see deer and rabbits - and she smells a lot more than I see! When she was younger, she'd take off after a deer and I wouldn't see her for a few minutes. She yips when she chases, and that was the only clue I had as to distance and direction. I realize a lot of people wouldn't put up with this, but we had 5,000 acres of state forest at our disposal and I let the dogs have at it. Mia, a natural tracker, never had any difficulty finding her way back (the same could not be said for her brother). Just this weekend she took off after a hare, and as soon as I whistled, she swung around and turned back to me. This never would have happened a few years ago. My advice: continue your work on recalls and distractions and have patience.


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## PuffDaddy (Aug 24, 2016)

Thanks, Liz. I was talking to the owner of Puffy's dad last night about this. She also said that as long as there are no cars, dogs or other people in an area, that everyone she knows with standards lets them free in the forest (we live in a serious forest country, so that is a pretty big thing here) She mentioned that if the dogs are good at tracking and take off like this sometimes, then they will always track back to you as well if you stay in the area and wait half an hour.

Where we live there is a lot of forest, but since it is technically city limits you get visitors with other dogs and some occasional access roads running through the forests, so I worry that Puffy could get into trouble if he really took off like that. But I am going to keep in mind what you said and just keep working on recall and re-direction exercises. Maybe one day when he is a bit more "responsible" and we are in bigger forested areas I will let him free.

It's kind of unfortunate to keep him on the leash all the time because the exercise and the fun that he has off leash is just awesome.


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## UKpoodle (Jul 22, 2015)

Gunther ran off at full pelt after a sheep once whilst we were half way up a mountain in the Lake District. I went into panic mode as he disappeared for what seemed like an eternity. I was convinced we were never going to see him again, but my husband very calmly told me to stay in the same spot and wait and that he'd track his way back to us, which of course he did eventually, after about 5 minutes. It's hard to fight the instinct to run after your baby but you have to remember just how amazing a dogs sense of smell is. Any way, we are in the same boat as you and Puffy now, Gunther has to be kept on a long lead whilst I'm working on his recall!


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