# Supplementing Kibble with Raw Meaty Bones?



## Arcticfox

As much as I would like to start a raw diet for my pup, I don't think I'm ready to take that plunge yet. However, I am very enticed by the dental benefits of RBMs. Would it be ok to feed a kibble based diet with some RBMs thrown in now and then to clean her teeth? How often should I give them? How much at a time? What kind of bones would be good for a 7 month old spoo? She's currently on a lamb and rice kibble, if that makes any difference. 

I'm thinking of something small once a day to replace one kibble meal (~1 cup). Would something like a chicken wing be enough for that? What else can I use for this purpose?


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## tortoise

There are a couple problems with it.

You will unbalance the diet and can cause deficiencies.

Only adding bone to a kibble diet will cause constipation.

Which bones do you plan to feed? They are not equal.


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## petitpie

Can kibble be fed with pre-made raw?


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## Arcticfox

tortoise said:


> There are a couple problems with it.
> 
> You will unbalance the diet and can cause deficiencies.
> 
> Only adding bone to a kibble diet will cause constipation.
> 
> Which bones do you plan to feed? They are not equal.


What if I only did it a couple times a week? I wouldn't be replacing much of her actual diet then, so it shouldn't unbalance anything.

I'm not sure what bones I want to feed, any suggestions welcome. I was thinking something along the lines of lamb neck, maybe eventually lamb ribs since she's already on a lamb and rice kibble. So I thought she'd probably be ok with that as a protein source?


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## tortoise

Arcticfox said:


> What if I only did it a couple times a week? I wouldn't be replacing much of her actual diet then, so it shouldn't unbalance anything.
> 
> I'm not sure what bones I want to feed, any suggestions welcome. I was thinking something along the lines of lamb neck, maybe eventually lamb ribs since she's already on a lamb and rice kibble. So I thought she'd probably be ok with that as a protein source?


You won't notice a difference, honest. If you're feeding a true RMB like a meaty lamb neck you don't need to worry about protein, calcium/phsophorus. Those will be fine. 

If you decide to do this daily, minor changes to make. If there is little fat and your dog has a high requirement for fat, you might need to add an omega 3-6-9 blend. Make sure it has vitamin E or add some. Never supplement fat/oil without vitamin E. Also, if this is routine, add in a variety other "stuff" (cooked veggies for example) or a vitamin/mineral powder. There are quite a few on the market, I use Solid Gold SeaMeal only because I could get it at Petco. (I dislike Solid Gold).

Oh wait, now that would be feeding an all-raw diet.  I mostly feed raw but I do keep kibble and feed it too.


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## fjm

I honestly don't think there would be any problem with replacing three or four meals a week with a RMB - she may get a bit bunged up from the bone, but a little liver would soon fix that. I find the best tooth cleaning bones are those with lots of stringy ligaments - self flossing! Lamb shank bones work well for my toys, but you will need something bigger for a spoo, of course. Recreational bones - for chewing rather than eating, with just enough sinewy meat to make them interesting - would laso help her teeth and have even less effect on the balance of the diet. Remember to avoid very hard, weight bearing bones - cracked teeth are dangerous and expensive to fix.


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## Carley's Mom

I'm no expert by any means, but I think it would be fine. When I got my 6 year old she needed her teeth cleaned and I signed a contract that I would do it within 3 months of purchase. I started her on bully sticks and chicken backs, beef ribs and hooves. She did not need her teeth cleaned and I got a signed say so from the vet to send to the breeder.

I am doing a half raw diet now. I feed her kibbles in the morning and raw in the evening . I give her bones and organ meats about every 3 days. So far she is doing great . I would like to go all raw, but I worry about not getting it right ... so as I continue to educate myself , this is working for me and carley.


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## Arcticfox

Fjm, Isn't the shank considered a weight bearing bone? Wikipedia says it is part of the tibia. Or is it only the top half of the limb that is considered a no-no for dogs? Hmm, what is bigger with lots of ligaments? 

Carley's Mom, That's my worry too. I don't even balance my own meals, lol.


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## CharismaticMillie

Depends on the dog. Will definitely firm up stool so be mindful of that and make sure there isn't any constipation. If it's fairly bone heavy (chicken legs, quarters, turkey necks) I wouldn't supplement more than a couple of times a week.

I agree with the statements about it being more beneficial to add a big, MEATY raw bone as opposed to the bone heavy one with little meat. That said, personally, I wouldn't give a whole lamb or pork raw meaty bone to a kibble fed dog right off the bat because I think you'd be asking for loose stool. I'd let them have just a taste for a few days and keep an eye on stool. Once they are fairly used to the protein, you should be okay. At least that's how I'd do it.


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## Arcticfox

CM, so would it be ok to introduce with say, a chicken drumstick or wing for breakfast one day, and another every couple of days? Would that be too small for an spoo to properly chew on? Or perhaps a segment of meaty lamb neck?


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## CharismaticMillie

Arcticfox said:


> CM, so would it be ok to introduce with say, a chicken drumstick or wing for breakfast one day, and another every couple of days? Would that be too small for an spoo to properly chew on? Or perhaps a segment of meaty lamb neck?


Personally, chicken is always the first raw item that I would like to introduce to a dog. IMO, a chicken wing is definitely too small for a standard poodle. It's also almost all bone.

You might be okay with a drumstick. It depends. A drumstick is probably more correct as far as how much food a moderate size spoo should eat in a meal. A drumstick works great for my poodles. That said, it's also a potential choking hazard for gulpers. A chicken leg quarter or back are less of a choking risk, but a whole leg quarter can equal almost an entire days' worth for a moderately sized standard poodle.

I think that ultimately a meaty lamb neck is a great addition, but like I said above, I always have taken the ultra conservative route when it comes to introducing proteins and avoiding loose stool. Heck, if it were me and I wanted to introduce a lamb neck for the first time, I'd be adding an ounce of boneless lamb meat to their meal for a week before giving the big kahuna. But nobody ever told me to do that. I just tried it and it worked.


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## tortoise

CharismaticMillie said:


> That said, it's also a potential choking hazard for gulpers.


:lol: I remember the first time I saw a dog swallow a drumstick whole. :lol:


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## fjm

The lamb shanks are from young animals, and even then my toy dogs chew the ends, work on getting the marrow out, and leave most of he actual bone. They have a lot of sinews though, which help to clean the teeth. Most of their RMB meals are halved chicken wings, which are just about the only thing small enough!


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## CT Girl

I started out going to raw the same way. Once every 3 days I would feed a chicken neck (I have a toy). If his stool gets too firm I always have frozen chicken gizzards and hearts on hand and I would give him a little of that. When you start feeding bones keep a closer eye till you know your dogs eating style (I am always close by but no longer feel the need to watch every bite). Swizzle is not a gulper but if your dog is hold the bone and he will learn to chew, not gulp, his bones. It is great you want to do this for your dog and it will do wonders for his teeth.


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## Sapphire-Light

I feed Pompadour raw and kibble since he had 4 months old, now at two years he is on a 70% raw, the kibble food are mixed wit cooked meat, and he is doing very good.


You just have to be careful to not mix raw and kibble in the same meal, since four what I have read kibble digest in 6 hours and raw in like 3 hours this can help you to plan your meals.

You can give one raw meal at the morning and one kibble meal at night or vice versa.


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## papoodles

I think it was Chocolate Millie who encouraged me last year to start feeding meaty bones, and since then, I am giving my two standards pork neck bones once a week or so- I never have any problems feeding these bones, and they certainly help keep their teeth cleaner.
I also never have noticed any ill effects from feeding kibble and raw together, but maybe I don't feed sufficient quantity of raw meat for there to be a problem?
I feed Wellness CORE, with about a 1/4 cup of green tripe,( yuck!!) or ground or minced beef added on when I do feed raw meat, but lesser amounts of liver/heart, etc to forestall loose stools.I am not brave enough ( yet) to feed raw chicken, but I am getting there. I am just so afraid that they will choke!
I must branch out now, because at summer's end, I will, hopefully, be bringing home another puppy, and the breeder( Marion Banta, Parrishill, NJ) feeds strictly raw and I promised Marion that I would try to increase the amount of raw meats in their diet.
So next week I will start on my promise by giving a raw chicken back...shudder


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## faerie

i've been feeding my dogs a mixture of raw and kibble for about 6 weeks now. primarily raw. i found a source where i can purchase ground meat w/ bones so i'm not freaking out on the choking fear i have.

they are all doing well on it and VERY happy when meal time comes.

i'm not sure i'm giving enough organ/heart/tripe mix though. i feed the standards 8 oz a week of it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I give my guys rmb's and they clean the marrow out and never eat all the bone. It has done wonders for their teeth!


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## CharismaticMillie

A marrow bone or any other bone that has little to no meat on it and also cannot be consumed is a recreational bone, not an edible raw meaty bone. .


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## Carley's Mom

From what I have been told its the eating, not the chewing of the bones that truly help the teeth. 

I ordered 40 pounds of chicken backs for $22.00 last week. I thought that was pretty good. I am also feeding turkey necks , chicken legs quarters and no salt sardines. Any other suggestions?

I give Carley beef ribs at least once a week for the chewing. I don't let her eat the ribs.


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## tortoise

Carley's Mom said:


> From what I have been told its the eating, not the chewing of the bones that truly help the teeth.
> 
> I ordered 40 pounds of chicken backs for $22.00 last week. I thought that was pretty good. I am also feeding turkey necks , chicken legs quarters and no salt sardines. Any other suggestions?
> 
> I give Carley beef ribs at least once a week for the chewing. I don't let her eat the ribs.


That's good for RMB's. You'll have to see what you get, but many times the chicken backs are "scant". You can alternate days with scant chicken backs with leg quarters. The leg quarters have a little bit more meat than is right, and the chicken backs don't have quite enough meat. Over 2 days, iit will be balanced and the calcium/phosphorus will be perfect. 

Don't forget to add some organ meat, and a vitamin source too.


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## Carley's Mom

Thanks tort, I consider the backs bone only. I also feed roast beef and chicken breast . I give her the backs about once every weeks. She also get turkey necks that I consider bone only. Is that okay, she gets those every two weeks also so at least once a week a bone meal. I did not know to skin the meat, thanks for that tip.


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## CharismaticMillie

*Skin the meat?*

Why would you skin the meat? I would never suggest skinning the meat unless you are first introducing raw and concerned about keeping things as bland as possible. The skin provides fat, which is important!


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## tortoise

Have you seen turkey backs in the grocery store? They are meaty, a good visual for estimating how much meat to put with the bonier chicken backs.

I think you're not feeding enough bone. It should be around 20% of the diet. Chicken leg quarters are usually about 15% bone and chicken backs are usually about 40% bone.

My mini puppy (13 lbs last time I checked) gets 3 chicken necks, about 1/4 cup organ meat, and about 1/3 cup boneless meat, and 600mg high-quality fat/oil -- in the morning 

He also gets about 1-1/2 cups of a 50/50 mix of Blue Buffalo kibble and various high-value treats. -- in the afternoon.


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## Carley's Mom

tort, it does seem that you are feeding your mini more than I would think she needed. Carley is 50lbs. She gets 1 1/2 c of kibble with canned dog food or canned tripe on top about 1/4 c in the morning and then a evening meal might be 1 lg chicken breast or 1 1/2 c cubed roast beef or 1 chicken quarter or 1 turkey neck ect . I sometimes feed 8oz of sardines with a egg yolk and 1/2 c of tripe as a meal. 

CM, tort said she seen a dog die from too much fat in the raw diet. That came from the skin. So I think I will skin mine about half the time.


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## tortoise

Yes, he eats a lot!! He is very lean at 13.6 pounds (I weighed him since my last post  ). His growth is tapering off now, so his energy needs will go down soon.


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## CharismaticMillie

Bone should be 10 percent of the diet, I think 20 percent is too high (though could be worse). This is different from raw meaty bones making up 20 percent of the diet, as something like a chicken quarter is ~30% bone (don't quote me on that).


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## tortoise

CharismaticMillie said:


> Bone should be 10 percent of the diet, I think 20 percent is too high (though could be worse). This is different from raw meaty bones making up 20 percent of the diet, as something like a chicken quarter is ~30% bone (don't quote me on that).


I'm relying on memory which could be wrong. Now that I think about it I'm not completely sure. :/ I'm too sleepy to think straight, but remind me tomorrow to look it up.

In case someone wants to beat me to it, you need the minimum calcium requirement for whatever life stage your dog is in from AAFCO. Then do the chemistry to find out how much calcium is in X amount of bone, then adjust the amount of bone until the calcium is right. Now using the calcium/phosphorus ratio (also from AAFCO) you can estimate the amount of meat and other ingredients, and/or you can go to energy requirements assuming bone has zero calories to get a meat amount and use the calcium/ phosphorus ratio to check.

I feed higher bone because you need to balance out the phosphorus that is in the non-meat part of the meal. The more "extras" you put in there, the more bone. Make sense?


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## fjm

Most recommendations for adults seem to be around 10% bone, 10% offal (of which half should be liver) and the rest muscle meat, including heart. Puppies need rather more of everything!

"Puppies
The nutritional requirements of puppies vary from those of adults, and deficiencies (or excesses) are more likely to cause harm. Puppies need more protein, fat, calcium, and phosphorus than adult dogs do, but too much calcium can lead to serious orthopedic problems. This is especially true for young (prior to puberty), large-breed puppies. These increased needs continue as long as your puppy is growing, and are highest during periods of peak growth.

The exact amount of calcium that puppies require is a matter of endless debate among nutritionists. I’ll outline the most prominent recommendations, and suggest an approach that should result in your home-prepared diet falling into the middle of these ranges.

The 2006 National Research Council (NRC) guidelines recommend that puppies receive 3 grams (3,000 mg) of calcium per 1,000 kcals, which is three times its recommended amount for adult dogs. The minimum requirement is 2,000 mg/1,000 kcals, but they also say that large-breed puppies (anticipated adult weight greater than 55 lbs) should get at least 250 mg calcium per pound of body weight up to the age of 14 weeks.

The nutrient guidelines published by the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) express the recommended amount in a different way, suggesting that puppy diets include between 1.0 and 2.5 percent calcium on a dry matter (DM) basis. In comparison, the 2006 NRC recommendations are 0.8 to 1.7 percent for smaller breed puppies (adult body weight under 55 lbs) and 0.8 to 1.2 percent for larger breed puppies (based on a diet that contains 400 kcals per 100 grams of food). "

DogAware.com Articles: Homemade Cooked Diets for Dogs


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## tortoise

I've read often that liver should never be fed. I don't think there is evidence to support either claim.


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## CharismaticMillie

I'm not sure that you need to put such in depth calculations into it. 80/10/10 is an ideal ratio. The goal is for bone to be 10% of the overall diet, as stated above.


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## Carley's Mom

This is why I am only feeding raw half the time... I just don't know what to believe and fear doing the wrong thing. " Be careful of too much skin, why would you skin, don't feed liver, be sure to feed liver, don't need veggies, feed veggies, give supplements, don't need supplements,feed raw eggs, don't feed raw egg whites, 10%, 20%, 30%... on and on. I know I want to do the very best for my dogs, but I am not sure what that is... I was much more at ease feeding my kids.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't think it's rocket science... You could probably do any of the above. You just have to, most of all, employ common sense, and be aware of what your dog's body is telling you. You will know if you aren't feeding enough fat because skin condition might get crappy. One way to increase fat is to feed more skin and/or fattier cuts. If your dog does not have good stool quality on 10% bone, feed 20%! If your dog does not do well with veggies, stop feeding them! (or vice versa). If you dont feel confident that you're capable of creating a balanced diet, add supplements. If you don't feel comfortable feeding liver, that's fine, but liver is the richest source of many vitamins needed so you will have to find out how to supplement these.

When one decides to feed raw, it's important to feel confident in what you're doing. One way to do this might be to read some books, stick with a diet plan, and go from there, adjusting for your dog as you go and learn.

There's even more contradicting evidence when it comes to human diets. I really believe anyone who is capable of keeping themselves and their children healthy is capable of the same with their dogs.


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## Carley's Mom

CM, I think you are right! Thanks!


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## fjm

I have to say I have never seen advice NOT to feed liver. Not to feed too much liver, yes, because of the dangers of excess vitamin A, not to mention diarrhoea, and most certainly not to feed liver only for the same reasons, but all the home prepared diets I have read about consider it an essential source of vitamins.


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## faerie

I'm new to raw feeding but everything i've read points to feeding liver. but to not OVER feed liver.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

I feed duck necks(1 per meal) with kibble, with no issues.. except my toy gave up on trying to eat it when there is skin or similar lol.

If your dog has allergies to say chicken.. in kibble I guess.. would she still have the allergic reaction to raw chicken. I hear different things? Im a bit afraid to feed raw to my toy because she has had previous liver issues and I want to keep it previous. I have no such worries about my miniature tho.

Is salmonella a problem.. not for the dogs themselves but for you.. do you have to sanitize the dog lol is the best way I can put it.. and how lol. Can you get salmonella etc from your raw fed dog. And do you sanitze/wash your dogs bowl after every meal or once a day, etc. I feed them raw outside with ears tied back and on the cement lol.


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## Carley's Mom

Carley is very neat, but I still cover her legs with the arms of a childs sweat shirt tied behind her back. I cut the leg off of a woman's p.j. leg and use it to keep her ears back. I also feed her outside most the time.


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## fjm

I wash my hands after preparing raw meat, whether it is for me or for the animals. I wash my hands before handling food, and several times when cooking. I wash my hands before I eat, especially if I have been handling the cats and dogs, and I am going to be eating with my fingers. I clean surfaces and use clean knives and chopping boards when preparing food, and take care not to use the same board and knife for stuff to be served raw that I have used for raw meat and fish. These are surely basic principles of hygiene, and apply whether your dog is fed raw or kibble? If there is someone in the household with a compromised immune system, additional precautions may be needed, but I think we tend to be too hung up on germs!


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## faerie

i put on a glove to handle the meat then keep it on when serving and washing up the bowls then wiping down afterwards. then i toss the glove after i've wiped down. this is because over washing irritates the eczema on my hands and that's the only reason why.

prior, i'd have used my hands and washed them before/after. 

i've found it nice to place some plastic wrap down while preparing so i can just remove it and toss afterwards. 

i need to pull up poodle ears though. they do get goop in them :yuck:


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## tortoise

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> If your dog has allergies to say chicken.. in kibble I guess.. would she still have the allergic reaction to raw chicken. I hear different things? Im a bit afraid to feed raw to my toy because she has had previous liver issues and I want to keep it previous. I have no such worries about my miniature tho.


It's hard to determine a food allergy in dogs because there are so many ingredients in dog food.

Some people starting raw do an elimination diet to find or verify suspected food allergies. They do it by one ingredient for a week or two, if no reaction then add a second ingredient... and so on. It's not a balanced diet for a while, so weigh the risk and rewards to decide if it's appropriate for your dog.


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## Olie

CharismaticMillie said:


> I'm not sure that you need to put such in depth calculations into it. 80/10/10 is an ideal ratio. The goal is for bone to be 10% of the overall diet, as stated above.


IA....This is key. The easiest way to start Raw (no matter where you start) IMHO is to just stick with slow protein changes with plenty of bone the first 2 weeks of each new protein. Liver shouldn't be introduced until after a 2-3 months into Raw and then the best way is to feed a small amount every few days. It's great to research but too much thought can get confusing quick. 

I was a die hard at not feeding veggies the first two years however I do now - some. I still don't believe they offer much value but they are a better substitute for my dogs waisteline  versus they high cal proteins. 

*I also see no problem substituting and feeding a BONE MEAL a few days a week will help with the teefers too! 
*A chicken alergy (w/kibble) many times does not have the same effect when eating Raw.


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## Arcticfox

Ok guys and gals, I finally have time to go to the butcher tomorrow. What should I ask for to start with? My freezer space is limited, keep in mind. 

I am thinking chicken thighs sound like a good start in terms of size and meat/bone ratio? I'll only be giving 2 - 3 a week, and half kibble on the days when I give it. Does that sound like a good plan for now? 

I'll try that for a week or two, and see how she does on it. Should I pick up anything else? 

By the way Tortoise, I saw some omega 3-6-9 supplements (for humans) at the pharmacy the other day, and the label said it included vitamin E - Omega 3-6-9 1,200 mg | Jamieson Will this stuff work for a dog? I can just break the capsule over her food I suppose?


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## Ladyscarletthawk

fjm said:


> I wash my hands after preparing raw meat, whether it is for me or for the animals. I wash my hands before handling food, and several times when cooking. I wash my hands before I eat, especially if I have been handling the cats and dogs, and I am going to be eating with my fingers. I clean surfaces and use clean knives and chopping boards when preparing food, and take care not to use the same board and knife for stuff to be served raw that I have used for raw meat and fish. These are surely basic principles of hygiene, and apply whether your dog is fed raw or kibble? If there is someone in the household with a compromised immune system, additional precautions may be needed, but I think we tend to be too hung up on germs!


Im not concerned about germs on utensils and counters.. those are cleaned just as if I prepared dinner. My concern is mainly from paws, muzzles and any hairs that stray in the raw food's way. If they eat raw cant they contaminate the living quarters.. carpets, leather sofas, human beds.. or is it really negligeable? We dont wear shoes in the house, keep the dogs pretty clean etc. Its just our lifestyle, we arent real germ-a-phobs, but it is SOMEWHAT a concern you know?

My only concern about the bowls is, is it harmful not wash them after every meal.. I feed kibble and find no need to wash bowls after every meal. Hell I really dont worry about salmonella while I feed kibble lol. With raw should I wash their bowls after every meal? Or will it make them sick if I dont? Right now not a big deal as I feed raw outside on the cement. They tend to pick em out of the bowl and set it on the ground.. *sigh* so I dont even use bowls for raw.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

Carley's Mom said:


> Carley is very neat, but I still cover her legs with the arms of a childs sweat shirt tied behind her back. I cut the leg off of a woman's p.j. leg and use it to keep her ears back. I also feed her outside most the time.


So is my girl.. I just see in close contact with her face and paws lol. The pj leg is awsome.. I need to have a friend make me a snood with some material I bought . Its really pretty and she made me a coat protector out of it.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

tortoise said:


> It's hard to determine a food allergy in dogs because there are so many ingredients in dog food.
> 
> Some people starting raw do an elimination diet to find or verify suspected food allergies. They do it by one ingredient for a week or two, if no reaction then add a second ingredient... and so on. It's not a balanced diet for a while, so weigh the risk and rewards to decide if it's appropriate for your dog.


I had her tested for food allergies as well as inhalant.. She is allergic to chicken for sure as I noticed the itching with a chicken base food/kibble . However it is hard to tell now as after her spay she has been itching like crazy as if she wasnt on her shots or LID food *sigh*. I have supplements to give so unbalanced shouldnt be a problem .



Olie said:


> IA....This is key. The easiest way to start Raw (no matter where you start) IMHO is to just stick with slow protein changes with plenty of bone the first 2 weeks of each new protein. Liver shouldn't be introduced until after a 2-3 months into Raw and then the best way is to feed a small amount every few days. It's great to research but too much thought can get confusing quick.
> 
> I was a die hard at not feeding veggies the first two years however I do now - some. I still don't believe they offer much value but they are a better substitute for my dogs waisteline  versus they high cal proteins.
> 
> *I also see no problem substituting and feeding a BONE MEAL a few days a week will help with the teefers too!
> *A chicken alergy (w/kibble) many times does not have the same effect when eating Raw.


See that's what I heard.. its difficult to find a meat she isnt allergic to and that isnt a red meat at the store. I want to put her on a dehydrated raw and add some other raw items for flavor.. the dehydrated raw im looking at is potato and soy protein... cant imagine that tastes good lol!


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## fjm

I do wash bowls after every meal - although they are licked so clean I have to check to see which are the dirty ones! RMBs are fed outside, or on a dog rug that goes through the washing machine every few days.

Alternative proteins - turkey or rabbit or venison, perhaps? Turkey wingtips would be about the right size for a toy, as would a small rabbit joint.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

fjm said:


> I do wash bowls after every meal - although they are licked so clean I have to check to see which are the dirty ones! RMBs are fed outside, or on a dog rug that goes through the washing machine every few days.
> 
> Alternative proteins - turkey or rabbit or venison, perhaps? Turkey wingtips would be about the right size for a toy, as would a small rabbit joint.


The only meats they carry at my store is beef, chicken, turkey, fish, lamb, whole duck, and veal. Which would be great except she is (via test) allergic to turkey as well.. I want to avoid red meat because she had prior liver issues, but will feed them if its my only choice. I wont do pork(germaphob) or fish as she didnt do well with a small piece of raw salmon. I what order of safer for tummies would you put beef, lamb, and veal.. if I half to feed it. Wish there were duck pieces instead of whole duck.. I buy my duck necks at the dog show.


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## fjm

Aaah - it gets tricky, I see! Beef and lamb are both rather high in fat, unless you buy the very best beef - is high fat an issue if she has had liver problems? I have given mine meaty lamb ribs for a meal, and lamb bones as recreational bones - the ones the butcher takes out of shoulders are perfect, and not too fatty. Veal is rare and expensive here - everyone stopped buying it because of the welfare issues for crated calves, and although welfare has improved lately it has never really become popular again - so I don't know much about the size of bones, etc. Oxtail might be a possibility for a beef bone?


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## Ladyscarletthawk

You know I think for some liver dogs fat was an issue, but the biggest problem for liver dogs is amount and type of protein... Technically she is now liver dysfunction free to this day, but I still somewhat loosely follow liver dog protocol. Liver dogs should only get 18% protein.. if your dog has hepatic encephelopathy(sp?) then the more important it is to be strict about it.. Also dairy protein is tolerated best, followed by fish and poultry. Red meat produces too many toxins in the blood and should be avoided. Raw is a nono with liver dogs lol, BUT with the whole diamond,NB issues I need to find her something new and a bit more trustworthy. Trust me I would never fed her the NB if I had known it was a Diamond product.. even if they only manufacture it by contract.

I am going to swtich to this:
Nutri-RX Allergy-HS

I want to or may need to add some yummies.. cant imagine it will taste very good lol, but I could be wrong. Its the only food I found that has no allergens that she has, and is not a rx kibble. Being that she has been liver dysfunction free for nearly 2yrs now, Im a bit more confident adding some raw to her diet.

We tend to buy the lower fat ground beef for ourselves already lol.. but would the higher fat upset her tummy?


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## CharismaticMillie

Ladyscarletthawk said:


> Im not concerned about germs on utensils and counters.. those are cleaned just as if I prepared dinner. My concern is mainly from paws, muzzles and any hairs that stray in the raw food's way. If they eat raw cant they contaminate the living quarters.. carpets, leather sofas, human beds.. or is it really negligeable? We dont wear shoes in the house, keep the dogs pretty clean etc. Its just our lifestyle, we arent real germ-a-phobs, but it is SOMEWHAT a concern you know?
> 
> My only concern about the bowls is, is it harmful not wash them after every meal.. I feed kibble and find no need to wash bowls after every meal. Hell I really dont worry about salmonella while I feed kibble lol. With raw should I wash their bowls after every meal? Or will it make them sick if I dont? Right now not a big deal as I feed raw outside on the cement. They tend to pick em out of the bowl and set it on the ground.. *sigh* so I dont even use bowls for raw.


I wash my dogs' stainless bowls after each meal. I did it when I fed kibble, too, and IMO you really should do it if you feed kibble OR raw.

With my dogs, the only part of their body that comes into contact with raw food is their mouth. Their feet, bodies, and mouths get enough germs just from, well, being dogs. So, I'm not convinced that feeding raw makes then any more of a *risk*. 

I do not wipe their faces after they eat. I do give them lots of kisses and haven't gotten sick yet! I'm sure it could happen...but I do have confidence in my immune system. If I was immunocompromised I might think twice about kissing near their mouths without first wiping.


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## fjm

If you are needing to manage protein and possibly fat levels, are not feeding meat with bone for teeth, and really just need something to make the food more palatable, would a cooked, gravy like mix make more sense than raw? Beef mince is about 17% protein, but would be less made into a gravy, white fish is more like 24%, but you could poach it in milk and water, and again make it into a sauce. You would only need a spoonful or two to add flavour, and it would not make so much difference to the base food that you would need to worry about maintaining the balance.


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