# Looking for breeder of minis in California



## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

Looking for a reasonable breeder of minis. I am lost. Please, advice!

I am looking for a healthy and an easy-going puppy. Why is it so difficult to find? 

1. Most breeders won't let you see the premises. I do understand that puppies are not fully immunized and viruses are rampant. How may I find a breeder that "raises puppies at home, not in the kennel" if I am not able to see puppy in his natural environment? 

2. Some breeders don't let you see dam and sire interacting with puppies. How do I know that puppies are from this breeding pair? Should I just trust?

3. It feels weird to buy a puppy without an opportunity to see him among his littermates. Actually, I would like to choose a puppy myself. I mean, real puppy, not a photo over the internet. I don't believe in arranged marriages; I would like to have a voice in choosing my future soul mate. 

4. Health guarantee is ridiculous. Most guarantee against hereditary diseases only, and for one year only. Most hereditary diseases appear after the guarantee expires. Most non-hereditary diseases, such as worms or bacterial infections, are specifically excluded from Health guarantee. I am puzzled, what is the real, practical, value of a Health guarantee? 

5. Genetic testing. First of all, many breeders are NOT testing their breeding stock. Second, it is very easy to test your puppy for known genetic diseases. Easy and cheap. So instead of looking for a "reputable" breeder, IMHO, it is easier to take cheek swab of the puppy and send it to the lab for genetic testing. Easier and cheaper. 

6. References through AKC or the local poodle club. Great idea. Except, both AKC and the local poodle club do not endorse any breeders. What is the difference between ad on AKC web site and an ad on Craigslist? I am not necessarily looking for an AKC registered puppy, just a healthy mini poodle, nothing special. For puppies advertised on Craigslist you, typically, can visit their home, see the environment, see their mother and littermates. Lots of benefits of buying a puppy from a BYB, actually. 

6. After spending several months looking and searching over the internet, I am starting to believe that "reputable breeders" are members of a secret club, like freemasons.http://www.poodleforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The "reputable breeders" conduct the usual formal business, they do exist, and everyone talks about them. However, you can't find them without an introduction.

I would be grateful if you could introduce to a breeder you like. Thank you!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Where are you in California? If near Los Angeles, PM me.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

maria_maria said:


> Looking for a reasonable breeder of minis. I am lost. Please, advice!
> 
> I am looking for a healthy and an easy-going puppy. Why is it so difficult to find?
> 
> ...


1.) Depends on the breeder, but whether they are kept in the breeder's home or in a kennel style situation, it is a risk to have visitors while the puppies are young. Some breeders are of the survival of the fittest and may not care that you could expose the puppies to disease and possibly inadvertently cause them harm. The strong ones will live on. You can always ask how their puppies are raised, when you pick up you can watch them interact at that point.

2.) Reputable breeders will be on top of whose bred to who, will show you pix of the Dam and Sire, pedigrees, awards, etc. Most breeders don't have large numbers of dogs and normally don't use their own stud dogs as they wish to breed their animals to the best available that will compliment their breeding stock, not just whatever dog is on hand.. Thats what BYBs do. Reputable breeders also don't wish to tarnish their rep, not saying accidents don't happen. Its not likely to happen with a reputable breeder that puts in the time to show or work their stock, and test for inheritable disease.

3.) If thats the case tell the breeder all you can about your lifestyle and what type of temperament you are looking for. What you want to do with the dog, etc. That way the breeder can choose because they know their dogs best, and many don't choose the right dog for THEM. A breeder wants a permanent home for their pups.. You could have a sedentary lifestyle and you are pretty laid back for example, but you choose a dog of a particular color with tons of dominant energy just because it ran up to you first. Most people would have a hard time with this situation, and will give the dog up or worse. Can a few individuals change themselves and make it work? Of course, but you can't ask a breeder to trust someone they hardly know to be one of these exceptions. They care about their dogs first, and its a leap of faith for them too to place a pup in a seemingly good home! Sometimes people fool you. BYB want to make money or breed for the wrong reasons. Some are accident breedings, and what not but they normally won't take a dog back after you pay. Reputable breeders will in my experience.

4.) That is different from breeder to breeder. Bacterial infections, worms, etc is a whole different ball game. Yes they should be perfectly healthy in that area when placed, but thats different in how much it would be to treat vs Hip Dysplasia for example. i have not had an issue with that in the past tho, from reputable breeders and not so reputable breeders. 

5.) And no most of the mini recommended health testing is NOT cheap! And you can't just swab their mouths to do this. CERF is done by an opthomalogist .. pretty much like people and rec yearly or when the dogs are bred. PRA is a blood draw, and expensive to test. Hips and elbows are X-rays and not cheap.. Patellas are the cheapest as your vet can check knees out for no extra charge other than OFA papers. Ha! You just reminded me I need to get the OFA on my puppies knees! Thanks! Anyway some check for more but that is the minimum.. Oh forgot to add legg calve perthes to the minimum testing, and that correlates with hip OFA actually. Only the OFA fees are extra unless you only test for LCP on its own and you pay for sedation, pre op labs and X-rays.

6.) You don't have to register your puppy with AKC, if you don't want. But those breeders who don't register are probably BYB and don't health test, which lowers your chances of a healthy dog. Can you get a healthy dog from a BYB? Sure but its russian roulette, not worth it in my opinion. Is health testing the end all of be all, and the dog will not surfer ANY illnesses ever? No. I would choose a breeder that at least first and for most does health testing, and second does obedience/ agility/ hunting, and third shows.. A dog with good conformation, tends to be built to be able to endure and live thru an active life better. I see no benefit from a BYB has no benefit IMO.. if you feel that way, then just adopt... there are more BYB dogs in rescue than from reputable breeders out there that need homes.

7.) I don't think that reputable breeders are hard to find . I found that reputable breeders are very concerned where their dogs go. I was "discovered" per se and they saw how I treated my first dog.. I even had a big time breeder tell me she would discount a dog for me, that she felt I would make a good home. Personally I don't know anyone to send you too that I have seen their operation, and are still breeding unfortunately.. Let alone in California. I hope you find what you are looking for! Good luck!


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## Sweetearlgrey (Mar 3, 2015)

Please what ever you do don't buy a puppy off a craigslist! Lady Scarlett answered everything wonderfuly! Searching for a good breeder does take time but it is well worth it! Byb dos can come with a host of issues including personality issues. Or first lab was a byb dog, she was from a family friends litter and my mom was having health issues, we bought her a friend. This dog is loving, sweet, and filled with issues. She jumps fences, she raids trash cans she climbs ontop of neighbors roofs, jumps fences and goes through doggy doors on raids, fetches balls when she feels like it, and is scred of boxes. When we got her, she was scared of everything and couldn't go on a whole walk with us, she was terrified of new things, ripped up everything in sight and was generally a Marley and me disaster. Our second lab came from a reputable breeder who breeds for health and temperament, her biggest issue? She hates leashes an would rather walk on off leash heel with you than a real leash, but se walks just fine. Would I ever in a million years buy another byb dog? Nope, the money is better spent somewhere else. I can't hook you up with a browser right now but there are plenty of people that could guide you in the right direction.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

*BYB or breeder*

Money is not an issue. Actually, Craigslist lists purebred poodle puppies for approximately $700 - 1,000. Breeder's pups are within the range of $1,000 to $2,000. Designer doodles are more expansive, up to $5,000 from a breeder (pet price). 

The advantage of a BYB is an opportunity to see the puppy in his natural environment. In the house, with his mom and littermates. You can play with a puppy, choose your own puppy. In case of a breeder, you should just "trust her expertise and reputation". 

On a top of it, it is very difficult to distinguish "reputable" breeder from "non-reputable". AKC and local poodle clubs do NOT endorse anyone. How do I know that the breeder is good? That his pups have good temperament? That they are healthy? 

Isn't it a lottery? The same lottery as with BYB. In favor of a BYB: he won't keep and breed a dog that is not sweet.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

I understand where you are coming from, its really hard to find a good breeder. yes a reputable breeder who shows ect.. has so many hoops to jump through its really a turn off imo. Clarion has nice puppies but providing 5 references? yikes...its easier to adopt a baby with some of these breeder requirements and yes you have to trust them to pick the right puppy for you, you dont get to pick... and like me you can be on a wait list for a year...its crazy. I understand where these breeders are coming from but as a buyer its frustrating, i went with what i call a reputable breeder in that there are champions in the bloodline, she cares about puppy placement, her lines are healthy, but i didnt feel like i went under a rigorous investigation to get my puppy, but i did have a good relationship with her and she picked a puppy for me based on what i said i wanted. I just got my puppy and im very happy with her. I paid 1700.00. That being said, there is something really special about picking the puppy that bonds with you out of the litter and spending time with the litter to see who will work best in your family unfortunately that isnt usually something you can do with these " reputable" breeders its usually the byb that let you do this. Just to let you know though not all craigslist or classified breeders are bad! As long as you can see the nice temperaments of the parents and they can show you that they health tested the parents for the chic recommendations then I say your good. Rosmel/Karbit has a great rep and is VERY well known, she had her litter advertised on the ebay pet classifieds!, I almost got a pup from her a while back and thats how I found her! Soooo, use your brain but i wouldn't nix an advertized pup.


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## Sweetearlgrey (Mar 3, 2015)

maria_maria said:


> Money is not an issue. Actually, Craigslist lists purebred poodle puppies for approximately $700 - 1,000. Breeder's pups are within the range of $1,000 to $2,000. Designer doodles are more expansive, up to $5,000 from a breeder (pet price).
> 
> The advantage of a BYB is an opportunity to see the puppy in his natural environment. In the house, with his mom and littermates. You can play with a puppy, choose your own puppy. In case of a breeder, you should just "trust her expertise and reputation".
> 
> ...



First I would urge you to read this article: How much does a puppy cost? Purchase price, adoption fees, discounts, expensive puppies, cheap puppies, and a bunch of other words. | Ruffly Speaking 

(Joanne Kimball is pretty much my doggy breeding crush)

First I would not fall for any breeder looking to sell you a "Designer Poodle" there is no such thing. There are different colors of poodles, and some more rare variations of coat colors. I would stay away from any breeder advertising "teacup" poodles. This sin't a real breed of poodle and just a really really tiny toy, a teacup can come with a host of issues due to its small size.

Next it is not a lottery, a reputable and good breeder is going to do extensive health testing on any dog to ensure that what they are breeding is a sound, healthy specimen and a true example of their breed. For a mpoo you are going to want to see that the breeder is doing testing in these areas (please tell me if there are more areas to be aware of?) 

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test
DNA Based test from an approved laboratory.
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist
Results registered with OFA - OR
Results registered with CERF
Patellar Luxation
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year
Hip Dysplasia
OFA Evaluation - OR
OVC Evaluation - OR
PennHIP Evaluation

And trust me, these tests are not going to be cheap. 
Next the breeder is going to be spending time ensuring that the dog has proven to be a true representation of their breed through conformation and other performance events (if you are looking at a lab breeder not only do you want a Champion in Conformation, but also a Champion in field events). Doing this isn't easy, its time and money consuming, and not every dog is going to be a champion. A breeder is also striving to breed their dogs for their personalities. This is very important when looking for a poodle, because there are plenty of cheap dogs out there that are going to be neurotic shaking, and not a testament to the breed. While BYB breeders might be trying to breed a happy sound dog, they have more than likely not spent hours upon hours pouring over pedigrees thinking of how to produce the best poodle puppies that they can. 

By the time a breeder has decided to breed dog a with dog b you can see that they have put a lot of time, money, and love into the dog. Now they will have to pay a fee for a stud dog, (which I have no idea how much that costs, but I can assume that it costs quite a bit?). 

Now the dog has been breed, money is going into giving the dog the best diet for carrying her puppies, vet visits for check ups, money will need to be put aside if there is any emergency. Money and time will need to be put into puppies, they all need shots, worming, (dew claws removed some breeders prefer to leave them), xrays to make sure that the puppies are growing normally.

OKAY. GASP. This is all from the perspective of an obsessive girl that would love to have a program one day. It is true that your puppy from the breeder despite all of this could end up with health issues. But they have taken every step to ensure that you are getting the best representation of the breed of dog you are buying that you can. 

That is why you buy from reputable breeders. That is why they care so much about their pups, and this is why their pups will be more expensive than a craigslist puppy. 

I know I don't know everything about breeders, the time and energy and effort that it takes to run a great program, and this is only the tip of the iceberg, but they deserve so much respect for the amount of time, love and devotion they give to their breed of dog. :adore:


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

*BYB vs. reputable breeder*

Dear Sweetearlgrey,

Thank you very much for your post. Again, money is not an issue. The issue is convenience and trust.

1. Where do I find a reputable breeder? AKC and local clubs do not endorse any breeder. Any breeder calls herself "reputable", how do I know? 

2. Health testing: I see your point. However, many breeders don't have websites. Thus I don't have information about their breeding stock. Interestingly, designer breeders have really good websites and they DO list results of health testing of their breeding pairs. 

3. I can make DNA tests of the pup to know the results. I think it costs approximately $100 per test, cheap in comparison to everything else. I can make this test before adopting a pup. BYBs allow it, reputable breeder would probably be offended, if I suggest it. 

3. Yes, I can't test pup for Hip Dysplasia or eye disease ... but I don't believe it is that common in mini poodles. Also, hip dysplasia typically manifests itself within the first two years of life. With BYB I see dam, I can evaluate if she is healthy or if she is limping. If she is healthy, I think it may be fine. BTW I have hip dysplasia myself, I am not an athlete, but I have absolutely no problems in everyday life. 

4. I am not looking for a perfect pup. Healthy, easy going, nice temperament, easy to housetrain, friendly, ... just a normal dog. 

5. I wish local clubs could have a website with the list of approved breeders. I wish such website would have info about health of the breeding pairs. I wish this website would have information about dates of expected liters. It would make life really easy. I am surprised that they don't provide such information.


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## Sweetearlgrey (Mar 3, 2015)

1. finding a good breeder you trust is going to take a lot of time, and effort, and no it is not easy. I think it took me almost 5-6 months to find the perfect breeder. You are going to visit a lot of websites and see a lot of different things that are flashy. What you should be looking for on these websites is 1. the history of the program 2. the breeders are showing interest in the continuation of the breed 3. the breeders are not having a million litters at once drop. I don't know the exact perfect number to look for, but in general I tend to stay away from breeders that have more than 6 litters in a year. 4. The female dog should not be over bred or bred too young, I think the proper age is around 3-4 for breeding a female? I don't know the proper amount of litters a female should be throwing, but again I would say stay away from a breeder that seems to be using the same female dog a million times. 5. Health testing, the health testing that I showed you is 100% for sure things that you should expect of your breeder to do, and to provide you with copies of. You can call any reputable breeder, and go "what health testing have you done on the dogs you are breeding?" There are registration numbers I am fairly certain that you can look the dog up by, and also find their results. 6. The first thing I always look for once everything above has been met, is what the breeding program is about. I always look for a program that believes first and foremost in breeding healthy, sound personalities and dogs. If I feel that all those criteria has been met, and the breeder is actively showing their dogs, then I will contact them and begin to build a relationship. 

Also look here: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html

2. Most breeders have some sort of website, it might not be the best, but it is worth just calling them if you like them. YOU MUST MUST MUST make sure the poodle has its eyes checked, that IS CRITICAL, otherwise you could get a dog with weeping eyes. THIS can also be covered up by a breeder who will simply hide tear stains. I encourage you to look up health issues in this breed of dog before you continue.

3. I don't know what you think you're going to get from the DNA test. SO really no answer here. 

4.What you are listing is pretty much a perfect dog. You might need to readdress what you want if you're going for a BYB dog. Sure you could end up with the dog you like, but the odds are not in your favor. 

6. Local clubs will give you a list of breeders if you ask them to. They generally have lots of resources for potential owners. Contact the head of your local chapter and ask them about breeders who have upcoming litters.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

*Breeders of minis*

1. Rosmel/Karbit (Santa Cruz, CA)
champion

2. Clarion (Sacramento, CA)
Clarion Poodles - Miniature & Toy Poodle Breeders

Thank you very much! I will check them.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

maria_maria said:


> Dear Sweetearlgrey,
> 
> Thank you very much for your post. Again, money is not an issue. The issue is convenience and trust.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean. If I were you, I would take the names of the breeders that AKC or the kennel clubs provided, and make a spreadsheet. Who has a website, shows, works(obedience, agility, etc), health tests, how close they are to you , if you are under contract, comments.... I would look at the websites that are available since that is the easiest, and see if they have the info you are looking for online first and put that into your spreadsheet. Highlight the names of the breeders that shows, and or works their dogs, AND health tests. Highlight the answer of whether they health test in two different colors.. One to designate those that do minimum requirement as per the breed club.. For minis as I stated its PRA, Hip Dysplasia, patellas, legg calve perches, CERF, and I do elbows. The other color to designate some testing and what they test for.

1.) Go by verbal recommendation from Knowledgable people either here or dogs shows, or agility/ obedience venues, or local clubs. We've already given you the tools to find a reputable breeders. Check them out first. Most of the times the breeders have their dogs THERE at the events and after they are done and not busy they will be happy to talk to you and more than likely meet their dogs. THATS how you know what kind of temperaments their dogs have. Put them in your spreadsheet.

2.) For health testing, you can look on OFA to see what health testing has been recorded with them for a dog or breeder. If you know the kennel name you can look up what they have recorded. Not all breeders put the results on OFA or maybe not all the results. ASK the breeder what they test for and copies of the test results for dam and should have it for the sire as well, its that simple. Designer breeds are just overpriced mutts with "breeders" have no intention of making a new breed and all the intentions of making money. Even the original australian breeders regrets ever starting the whole thing.. plus you won't get the best of both breeds it will be a mix of different qualities from both parents good and or bad. I haven't had the best experience with these mix breeds, I don't like their coat or their temperaments on 99.99% of these mixes I have met. Why do they charge all this money? Because they know that many misinformed people will pay it, cause they think its something special.. Likened to chihuahuas in purses lol. Because they call themselves breeders they can lie and tell the puppy buyer that they are awesome dogs, easily trained, low keyed, have hybrid vigor, no health issues, don't need grooming.. I can go on I have heard it all it seems!

3.) I would like to be enlightened.. You keep saying that you can DNA test the pup.. for parentage? Disease? If you think you can do that for disease which are you referring too? Frequently used males have to have DNA registered with AKC.. If you really feel a pup isn't from the dam and sire, then test the pup if you want. But IM telling you reputable breeders wouldn't intentionally lie about parentage, cause they can get in big trouble with AKC. Oh thats another thing I would only go with AKC, or Canadian KC,.. and UKC preferably if they are also registered with AKC. No other registries are worth it for poodles and many will register mix breeds. 


I would like to add that just because a dog looks healthy it doesn't mean it is. My toy poodle looks healthy and everyone that meets her falls in love with her. However she is riddled with them, but she fools even the vets until they start checking things. And one last thing is just because you are happy to live with an issue or disease doesn't mean its fair that someone else or a dog to. We all experience the same issues differently from one another. Poodles love to run and have fun and can be slowed down by HD. They will suffer tremendously as they get older, I see it all the time. And HD doesnt always manifest itself that early, usually only if its a severe form of it, but it normally manifest in middle age or older.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

*Puppy on video*

I think my problem is that my daughter is really professional in Photoshop and iMovie. I know how easy is it to distort picture, to make a perfect photo or video. Thus I have a problem believing a pretty picture of dam and puppies. Too easy to manipulate.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Something that seems a bit lost in AKC's and breed clubs' messages these days is that getting a puppy is not like a regular retail transaction (pet stores and greeders aside). It's admittedly a very different paradigm from most that people encounter these days, and as a result it's not intuitive.

Getting a puppy from a reputable, responsible breeder is more like getting a gift one has longed for, along with a wonderful mentor who is there to help and answer questions for the life of the dog. A built-in fairy godmother (or father), as it were....

Great, wonderful breeders don't benefit from trying to pull the wool over puppy buyers' eyes, because they LOVE the puppies whom they have caused to enter this world, and they care dearly what becomes of them and what lives they lead. 

Puppies and dogs being sentient, loving, caring, sensitive living beings are not tomatoes to be trucked around or sold for the highest or lowest dollar--as we all know. I've known people to sit happily on waiting lists for a couple years. It's not unknown for the cognoscenti in a breed to wait several years for the right puppy, let alone members of the public who won't likely show or trial a dog to its full potential (I admit to being one of those at this time). Heck, there's a fantastic breeder who has such a story on her website right now.

These transactions are, yes, purchases of puppies, but they are not like computers or tomatoes . I'm not pointing fingers or hollering, just saying there is no one out there explaining all this and helping guide poor puppy-buyers-to-be through the process, and there ought to be. The AKC could claim some space here, although I know it's a registry, not all that. But still... And good grief, find a way to let poor puppy buyers know your AKC classifieds are not necessarily responsible breeders. They've just put up some cash. Sheesh.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i'm not so sure "akc" deserves its cachet. i ran into a coton de tulear owner who told me there is a whole segment of coton breeders who strongly opposed acceptance of cotons by the akc. their reasons were interesting: they felt akc registry limited the foundation lines of the breed and would kill diversity. in addition, part of their complaint was that the akc's support base of large scale commercial breeders (that often turn out to be puppy mills) was not in the interest of their breed. the more i learn, the less clear it is to me that the akc is really a force for good when it comes to dogs.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

If I would choose my spouse the same way I am supposed to choose a puppy, I would still be a virgin. I mean, seriously?


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

Let's do some math: There is a handful of reputable poodle breeders in USA and their names are hidden. Only the truly devoted poodle lover would find them. These breeders have, probably, a litter or two per year. Thus, few hundred reputable pups are available per year. Yes, tens of thousands poodle pups are sold in this country every year because there is a demand for poodle pups. If reputable breeders are not able to fulfill the demand, someone else would. 

If you control, probably, less than 10% of poodle population ... how do you benefit the breed?


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

Next, proliferation of puppy mills and re-sale services. Because there is a demand for puppies! 

My kids want a puppy and they don't want to wait a year to get one And yes, we would like to get a puppy in the beginning of summer to be able to bond with him during the summer break. 

Designer doodles provide all these services. They DNA test their dogs. They check hips. They CERF certify their dogs. They even have a service, where you can get a 12-week old potty trained puppy that knows basic commands (this service costs additional $1,000 to $1,500 and it is very popular). 

I do not advocate for doodles. I love poodles, they are beautiful. But I truly believe that there is room for improvement in selling (yes, selling) poodle pups.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

maria_maria said:


> Let's do some math: There is a handful of reputable poodle breeders in USA and their names are hidden. Only the truly devoted poodle lover would find them. These breeders have, probably, a litter or two per year. Thus, few hundred reputable pups are available per year. Yes, tens of thousands poodle pups are sold in this country every year because there is a demand for poodle pups. If reputable breeders are not able to fulfill the demand, someone else would.
> 
> 
> 
> If you control, probably, less than 10% of poodle population ... how do you benefit the breed?



You are So right. I personally Believe that if it wasn't for backyard breeders or Mills, the breed would die. Most of those pups don't have breeding rights coming from reputable breeders. How could the supply meet the demand if only they were able to sell? It wouldn't. Ever. Under any circumstance.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

Speaking from the consumer's perspective, all my friends have dogs. 

1. Only one family has a puppy from an AKC breeder. Breeder was chosen based on a geographic convenience. 

2. Two friends got adult dogs from shelters. One dog was very sick and passed away. Another dog is very sweet, but very timid. Not a great dog for kids. BTW, shelters don't have many puppies. Pit bulls are Chihuahua puppies are sometimes available, but not other breeds.

3. One friend got pup from internet resale. Three friends god pups from eBay and craigslist. One got a puppy from a friend that had a litter. All are happy. The dogs had issues (specially housebreaking), but sweet and healthy. 

I want to have a pup from a reputable breeder. But breeders, please, understand the concerns of your consumers


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## ROHAN-K9mm (Nov 20, 2011)

I have just spent years in looking at poodle pups. I have a wonderful dog who is full of the joy of living, and I have just found a wonderful young male who is living here I hope forever. The breeder I found wants him back if the 2 dogs do not adjust well. She Wanted to know if I had made arrangements for my dogs if something happened to me. She wants him back if i can't care for him. She has people in line for her dogs. I got lucky. 'Doodle breeders do market their dogs well, but that is where it ends. Look on pet finder and see how many there are looking to be re -homed. Good breeders want their dogs back. They have no trouble selling their pups Less dedicated breeders are done when the sale is over. I was frustrated in finding names of Mini breeders, and spent a lot of time on this project. Keep looking and good luck. The DNA can tell the breed, or likely breeds, but darn little else- and how are you going to get the sample? Put your money into visiting the breeders you are thinking about, and meeting their dogs.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

breeders who are reputable are reputable because they generally are not large scale breeders and therefore have the time to do the health testing, beginning socialization and even temperament testing that buyers find desirable. many remain in touch with their "extended families" and that also takes time, thought and effort. it also costs time and money to maintain a website. 

in the midst of all of that, they find not-quite-so-reputable breeders running websites (some even possibly partially plagiarized from them) who make claims to being reputable. which, like the akc lists, puts them right in the middle of an undistinguishable and every possiby undistinguished list of breeders.

since, as you say, there appears not to be a dearth of willing buyers and reputable breeders also do not want their dogs to go to just anybody, each has to ask whether it's worth it to be as well-publicized as prospective buyers would like. if you think finding a mini can be difficult, well, i've been, casually, i admit, checking out toy breeders for over a year. the longer i search, the more questions i find myself asking. because, yes, it seems that it is possible to be not so reputable according to the akc and/or various other breeders and still produce great dogs.

nonetheless, if anyone asked me, i would still say try for a reputable breeder. and i do put my foot down when it comes to doodles. just not for me. doesn't matter what the breeder says. to me, the foundation of "reputable" is to preserve and improve the breed. doodles are not a breed and in fact are an abuse of that foundation rule when it comes to poodles. (committed breeders of labs and goldens feel the same way, by the way.)


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

maria_maria said:


> Let's do some math: There is a handful of reputable poodle breeders in USA and their names are hidden. Only the truly devoted poodle lover would find them. These breeders have, probably, a litter or two per year. Thus, few hundred reputable pups are available per year. Yes, tens of thousands poodle pups are sold in this country every year because there is a demand for poodle pups. If reputable breeders are not able to fulfill the demand, someone else would.
> 
> 
> 
> If you control, probably, less than 10% of poodle population ... how do you benefit the breed?



I think that we did the dog world a disservice when "kennel" became a dirty word.
By your definition to be a reputable Toy Poodle Breeder one produces 2-6 puppies a year. Good luck preserving and improving the breed with those numbers, and good luck to pet puppy buyers searching for a Tpoo with specific traits.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> breeders who are reputable are reputable because they generally are not large scale breeders and therefore have the time to do the health testing, beginning socialization and even temperament testing that buyers find desirable. many remain in touch with their "extended families" and that also takes time, thought and effort. it also costs time and money to maintain a website.
> 
> in the midst of all of that, they find not-quite-so-reputable breeders running websites (some even possibly partially plagiarized from them) who make claims to being reputable. which, like the akc lists, puts them right in the middle of an undistinguishable and every possiby undistinguished list of breeders.
> 
> ...



PatK, you could right a book already with all of the information that you have gathered! With everything that you know, and the notes that you have taken, if you were looking for a puppy today, do you have a clear decision of who you would go to?
It seems to me that there is not a single breeder who would meet every single qualification of what one would want in a breeder! I am curious as to if you have honed in on such a breeder?


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

I am not a breeder and I am not in the position to make suggestions. Just an idea ... 

In my country breeding was organized by a club, not by individual breeders. Dogs were living with the owners, but club leadership was making decisions about breeding pairs, advertising pups, helping to re-home dogs, making sure that their breeding stock is free of genetic diseases, etc. In return, the club was getting fees and had the right to choose any pup from the litter. These way several hundred breeders were combined under one "umbrella" and were not really competing with each other but competing with other clubs for the same breed. Club acted like a franchise, individual breeders like a chain store. Clubs for the same breed were competing with each other; individual breeders belonging to the same club were considered one "team".


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

_<and i do put my foot down when it comes to doodles. just not for me. doesn't matter what the breeder says. to me, the foundation of "reputable" is to preserve and improve the breed. >_

Doodles are the answer to consumer's requests. 

You can't simply "preserve" the breed. Life changes and owner's expectations of dogs change as well. For example, herding abilities are not that important for a typical pet, but housebreaking, that was not an issue for a farm dog, is very important for an apartment dog.


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

Doodles are the answer to consumer's requests in many ways. 

Since the majority of poodles comes from mills and BYBs, lots of dogs have problems with temperament. Poodle start to develop reputation of neurotic, skittish barkers. You can say 10,000 times that "a well bred poodle is perfect". But you run into "my grandma has a poodle and I don't want a dog like hers". 

Consumer's love poodle's coat, lack of odor, intelligence, ability to be housebroken, clean look. Consumers like lab's temperament. Even BYB's labs often have great temperament. 

Naturally, an idea comes "let's get a dog that looks like a poodle but behaves like a lab".


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tp, i just make mental notes. i am not in a rush. there are certain kinds of things that will happen when they're ready to do so.

maria, sounds like you should be looking for a doodle. there are some members here who own doodles (and no, we don't hate them or their beloved pets), but doodle breeders are not allowed to promote themselves or their dogs here. i believe there is a goldendoodle club you can look into.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> tp, i just make mental notes. i am not in a rush. there are certain kinds of things that will happen when they're ready to do so.
> 
> maria, sounds like you should be looking for a doodle. there are some members here who own doodles (and no, we don't hate them or their beloved pets), but doodle breeders are not allowed to promote themselves or their dogs here. i believe there is a goldendoodle club you can look into.



Well then you must have excellent mentation because you seem to have everything that was ever said about every breeder of all three varieties at the tip of your fingers


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tp, just remember that at pf if i think i even vaguely remember something i can just hit search and find it. it helps as one gets older to know there are such wonderful crutches out there!


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## maria_maria (Mar 6, 2015)

I am still not ready for a doodle. 

1. Poodles are beautiful
2. I had 2 poodles in my life, both were perfect. Unfortunately, it would be too difficult / costly to import a puppy from the same breeding club.
3. It is difficult to find a reputable doodle breeder. Good doodle costs over $5,000 and my husband won't approve such investment 

Any chance for a reasonable mini poodle? Advice? Looking for a summer puppy. Color irrelevant. Should not be timid or neurotic. Adult dog is fine, if it is housebroken, pretty looking, and well socialized. 

Advice?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hooray. a poodle loyalist. i like loyalty. so where in california are you located? or did i miss that in an earlier post of yours? maybe someone from your area who actually owns a mini can chime in with some suggestions.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

maria_maria said:


> if i would choose my spouse the same way i am supposed to choose a puppy, i would still be a virgin. I mean, seriously?


rotflmao


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

maria_maria said:


> I am still not ready for a doodle.
> 
> 
> Any chance for a reasonable mini poodle? Advice? Looking for a summer puppy. Color irrelevant. Should not be timid or neurotic. Adult dog is fine, if it is housebroken, pretty looking, and well socialized.
> ...


Where in California are you? Who have you contacted?


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

Miniature breeders here in norcal are practically non existent- all mini poodle breeders worth anything seem to be in sol.cal- there are quiet a few down there though.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

princesspenny said:


> Miniature breeders here in norcal are practically non existent- all mini poodle breeders worth anything seem to be in sol.cal- there are quiet a few down there though.


There are some:

Clarion
Bar King poodle
Midnight miniature poodles
Cinbren Miniature poodles
Black Pearl Poodles

All show and health test their dogs. No personal experience, I have standards.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

clarion- yes you can get on a wait list i think, dont think there are current litters though
bar king- doesnt seem to breed anymore- i've attempted contact
midnight- hasnt updated website since 2012
cinbren- they only one with current litters!
black pearl- not breeding until 2016

its pretty hard to find a mini up here-lol.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

My general sense, past experience, and even a poll of forum members published a while back tells me that minis are the least common of the three sizes. Winnow the list down to the "best" breeders, and you end up with a very small pool of potential candidates.


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## Harmony (Dec 18, 2009)

*Recommend Clarion*

I saw your post about your poodle search. I love my Clarion Miniature Poodles. They are very reputable.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i believe if one does a search at pf of clarion, there will be several comments, but not all absolutely positive. the negative comment i saw was by someone on the east coast who received a dog (that she loves) that she said was not in good condition. it's worth doing a search at pf on any breeder. of course there is no way all have been commented on. but where there are comments, they can help provide perspective to a newbie, especially.


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