# DNA coloring traits match a silver ? Or is it not as simple as that. I compared to a silver poodle profile.



## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

Any thoughts and discussion appreciated on the matter. Dam is silver beige, Sire is cream. Litter was all born black (8 pups). 


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

First, it's important to know that the terms "blue" and "silver" are used in two different contexts in the dog world. One is for dilute variants of black and brown caused by the D Locus. These variants are usually what people are talking about in hounds and other non-poodle breeds. These dogs are born blue or silver with grey noses. Weimaraners are an example of a breed where every dog carries the dilution gene. It does occasionally occur in poodles, but it it very very rare. Your dog's results on the D Locus indicate she isn't a dilute. That's pretty much as I'd expect for a poodle; I'd be surprised if she were.

"Blue" and "silver" in poodles are, instead, normally caused by a fading gene. The puppies start out black or brown and gradually fade to blue, cafe, or silver. Unfortunately, there isn't a reliable test for it yet. 

An interesting paper came out in 2020 right around the time everyone was scurrying into Covid containment mode; I think a lot of people missed it during the chaos. It describes an intensity control mechanism affecting both the red to cream and the black to silver spectrum. Basically, there is a correlation between the number of copies a dog has of a certain variation and the intensity of the color. Pigment Intensity in Dogs is Associated with a Copy Number Variant Upstream of KITLG


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Need to expand to see what genes are actually carried rather than the word description.

Looks like dam didn't carry cream so your dog is either E/e or Em/e (just means she's not red/apricot/cream/white). Looks like sire didn't carry brown since no brown puppies, so your girl is B/b (black base carries brown). Since there were no patterns in the litter then both parents didn't have a ky, possible one did. Your dog is either kb/kb or kb/ky (just means solid and not patterned). We have no idea what might be on "a" locus since she's solid. Click to expand the selection and find out. She's likely S/S ( not parti) could be S/sp tho.

Silver is the most likely offspring color from those parents. Your puppy seems blue, but maybe that's just the photo or she's a darker silver. Very pretty. Congratulations on your puppy !


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

LaForge’s Embark Dog DNA Results here is his Embark profile if anyone wanted to expand that and dig deeper. The article about the copies that cause the colorings is interesting. Poodle coloring variations are super crazy to me and then when they change over time clearing. 

Muzzle is very very light when clean shaved. 



























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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

As expected Ee, kbkb, SS, Bb. The "a" we couldn't tell is ayat ( doesn't really matter because it doesn't affect her coloring and she can't produce patterns if you bred her) The rest isn't all that relevant. I don't even look at the intensity because it doesn't seem reliable. 

I agree that poodle colors and their changes is super interesting and fun! Sometimes it's hard to guess how a puppy will clear. 

Your puppy is so very pretty!


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Embarrassing- your puppy is a boy. Im sorry i was saying "she"! 😬


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

Summer said:


> As expected Ee, kbkb, SS, Bb. The "a" we couldn't tell is ayat ( doesn't really matter because it doesn't affect her coloring and she can't produce patterns if you bred her) The rest isn't all that relevant. I don't even look at the intensity because it doesn't seem reliable.
> 
> I agree that poodle colors and their changes is super interesting and fun! Sometimes it's hard to guess how a puppy will clear.
> 
> Your puppy is so very pretty!


Thank you. He is my first standard. Have only had a rescue senior toy white poodle before. I didn’t even know til last year they came in so many colors haha. 

He has very …almost blonde(?) brown hair at the carpal pad on both sides. Grows out very very light there around the pad. On two of his feet there is a silver or white big patch in between paw pads. I have shaved it and told that sometimes it’s only when they are newborns but it has grown back that same white or silver color. If that means anything I have no clue. I wish they had definitive testing for all these colors. 

I guess I don’t understand how he can be “blue” poodle / brown tint but not dilute when he has been fading. His snout only lightened after 7 weeks ish.











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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

It'll be nice when we have tests for all the shades. And it does seem that it would be a dilute gene that causes poodles to fade, but as cowpony said above, dilute dogs are born that color, like Weimaraners. If it were the dilute gene affecting poodles they would be born blue/silver/cafe/silver beige. It's the "greying" gene that affects poodles. Untestable- for now.

Silver beige and cafe often look alike and the only way to know which is which is WHEN they started graying. If the dam is actually cafe then it would make sense that your boy could be blue (based on black/brown =0 copies graying, blue/cafe=1, silver/silver beige=2) . I'm always open to learn if others have more current theories on greying. 😁

Poodle colors on pedigrees and akc records are often incorrect because it's so hard to know the shade a puppy will clear.

Just enjoy the ride I guess. You should see that brown puppy in my avatar right now. 😄


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I would think with a face that light at 4 months that your boy is a silver.


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

I’m afraid that’s the issue too. I just assumed she was silver beige due to her coloring but i wasn’t sure the difference between cafe au lait and silver beige! She was born chestnut colored. She also has a light nose. I still see silver beige but I’m curious what others would say. 

Pictures attached = my puppy’s Dam.










































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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

Starla said:


> I would think with a face that light at 4 months that your boy is a silver.


That’s what got me wondering and researching about how these color genes even work. Everything I read about blue poodles (after groomer told me he could be blue or silver) said that blues clear much slower than this. In the sun his parted hair has a silvery and almost coppery luster to it but hard to capture through photograph. 


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

This was my puppy at 8 weeks. He has faded a lot since then I didn’t even realize until looking back at natural light pictures. 











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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

I would call the dam silver beige and you boy is probably silver. 

My guy is blue, and is clearing in a "faux phantom" pattern, likely due to him being kyky and ata. His sire, who is a blue phantom, has the same markers.


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## PowersPup (Aug 28, 2020)

I agree that your lovely pup is most likely silver. My poodle is blue, but still looks mostly black at nearly 2 years old. His silver sisters had very light muzzles when they were ready to go home, and turned silver when they were still puppies. Topper's mom cleared very slowly, and his older half-sister also is clearing slowly. However, her tail pouf is a lovely steel gray, in contract to her darker body. Stunning!


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

This is the color coming through at the carpal pads on both sides!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

BattleWaifu said:


> That’s what got me wondering and researching about how these color genes even work. Everything I read about blue poodles (after groomer told me he could be blue or silver) said that blues clear much slower than this. In the sun his parted hair has a silvery and almost coppery luster to it but hard to capture through photograph.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My blue spoo is just starting to clear around the eyes, snout and two spots on the inside flap of his ear, and he is 10 months. He has a rusty brown tinge to his hair, that is very apparent in sunlight. 
I would say your pup is silver. He's adorable 😍


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## BattleWaifu (8 mo ago)

Minie said:


> My blue spoo is just starting to clear around the eyes, snout and two spots on the inside flap of his ear, and he is 10 months. He has a rusty brown tinge to his hair, that is very apparent in sunlight.
> I would say your pup is silver. He's adorable 😍


Yeah I was surprised how fast the color is showing through as people told me blue will be slow. Some blues do not clear for years.
This is when I split the curls on the ends of his ears on the new growth.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I believe the blue skin is a dead giveaway. Your poodle is blue


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## Crow Woods Homestead (6 mo ago)

BattleWaifu said:


> Any thoughts and discussion appreciated on the matter. Dam is silver beige, Sire is cream. Litter was all born black (8 pups).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its hard to tell when we can not see the actual result (unless I am not looking at the who thing). A silver or blue Poodle will start changing by 6 weeks but can take up to 2 years to manifest fully. Blue or silver dogs should test E? or Em? AND also dd. However... we leaned this with our first litter of Mini Poodles. Some dogs who test E? or Em? AND are DD can sometimes fade into blue or grey!!! Why? Embark does not test for the G Locus (the other gene responsible for greying/fading.)


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