# Counter Surfing and Garbage



## Countryboy

Not too many ideas coming here. So I'll give u a sure-fire method... and then I'll duck. :ahhhhh:

Counter-surfing and garbage stealing are easily solved. The side of a foot in the ribs can solve it in a minute. Or catch them with a swat that they'll never forget.


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## lily cd re

Oh you are having many of the same issues I had with Lily aren't you? All of these things can be overcome and you will make it all come together. Don't lose faith. You have a good dog in that bratty teenager somewhere, you just need to help her find herself!

Counter surfing is a terrible problem. I have not had any success dealing with it other than to keep my counters free of tempting things. Lily once ate a plate of chicken left just as you describe all the way at the back of the stove. The basis of why a dog counter surfs is that once it has scored something really good even one time it has been self reinforced as something wonderful to do. By keeping our counters free of food left overs, hiding the bread, cookies and chips and always getting rid of paper goods super fast we have made our counters less rewarding to explore and safer for Lily to check out. Even with all of that and trying many negative reinforcers (hot sauce, double stick tape, mouse traps, foil pans and empty cans as booby traps) Lily still checks out the counters every day. Once it starts I think it is just something that you have to get a management strategy for.

For the garbage can is it possible to get one with a lid that you can attach a child safety lock to? Our garbage is under the kitchen sink so it isn't easily gotten into, but they would love to do so. Lily once gat a bad pancreatitis from eating all sorts of awful stuff from the bag I meant to take with me that I left on the kitchen floor by mistake when I went out.


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## lily cd re

Frank I was writing my longer reply while your went up. I will confess I wish I had given Lily a really good swat on her cute nose the first time I saw it peer over the top of the kitchen counter! There now, we both said it.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Saphire said:


> Korra is an a 8 month old female SPoo. We got her from a reputable breeder at 9 weeks. The other thing she is doing is Counter Surfing and raiding the garbage. Based on our house we cannot hide the garbage can but if anyone has a kitchen garbage can that cannot be opened by a dog would love the suggestion.
> 
> We try to keep the kitchen closed but with 8 people, mostly kids it is opened a lot and she sneaks in. Plus she must go through the kitchen to get to the yard. Tonight she ate my husband's chicken which I had left near the back of the stove, with a closed door. She learned Leave it in puppy school but it only seems to work if we are with her, not if she sneaks into the kitchen.* She knows she is not supposed to do this as when caught in the act she looks embarrassed and runs out of the room*
> Suggestions Please


What's actually happening here is that she does not know she's doing wrong. Her look of "embarrassment" or guilt... and her running out of the room is because this has been a predictor of some kind of punishment or exasperation, scary voice, something...from a human. Dogs do things because they're safe enough or they don't do things if they're too dangerous. This is worth the risk but it has proved in the past to be a little dangerous so she runs and hides when a human is present. If a human has not been present, it was safe. So she chances it. Remember, she's a dog, an opportunistic scavenger, hard wired to snatch food any way she can. How wolves became dogs was that they scavanged garbage and scraps from humans. (one theory) Tamer wolves branched off into a subspecies and those tamer wolves' physical characteristics changed as a result of docility. (possibly a piggy back gene and/or happy hormones/brain chemistry directly change physical traits, long story) 

Without extensive training, this can be a very difficult survival instinct to over ride. I can think of more interesting training tasks to spend my time on, personally.

The best way to deal with it is to never leave a crumb of food on the counter or wherever she can reach it. The reason she does it is because she's been successful in the past. Dogs do what works. This is how they evolved to become probably the most successful species from an evolutionary stand point. It is a very advantageous behavior to the survival and reproduction potential in a species. She does _not_ have our morals _or_ value system so she does not recognize our human concept of "wrong." 

When it becomes apparent that it never works to jump up on the counter, the behavior will extinguish. However, if you put food out again, the behavior may well revert to stealing food again. lol. I had a Doberman that counter surfed. He was 29" at the withers and had no problem stealing food. I became very diligent and the behavior stopped. I tested him out and would leave the room and peak around the corner. If he left it alone, I rewarded him with something better than what was on the counter. I'd increase the time I was hiding gradually. He pretty much left things alone when he got a little older but I never trusted him 100%. So, really was careful about putting things away.


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## N2Mischief

I don't have this problem with my dogs...they are too tiny, but my cats! So, the microwave's (yes I have two) and the regular oven, when off, become my storage area when waiting for food to cool, or for a plate of cookies etc. Nothing is left on the counter that is edible or smells edible (wrappers) because the cats will knock it off and give it to the dogs. And no, the cats are NOT allowed on the counters, but that doesn't mean they won't sneak up there if Im not in the room! lol


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## lily cd re

I use the microwave, top of the toaster oven and the like to get stuff out of Lily's reach! Sometimes if we slip up and leave something too hard to resist though, I swear that Lily must stand on Peeves' back to reach the forbidden treasure before jumping down and sharing her snagged feast with him for the favor of using his back for the extra reach.


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## LEUllman

At 16-1/2", Beau is too short to counter surf. But that doesn't mean he can't tell us all about those yummy things he knows are up there, just out of reach. And tell us he does, in great detail!


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## lily cd re

I think it is very funny that you have dog treats at the ready in the bathroom!


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## MiniPoo

When our puppy was small we had to watch her carefully to make sure she didn't have an accident in the house. If we saw her checking out the counters, we charged her and roared. We tried to nip this behavior in the bud so to speak. This is easier to do if you only have a few adults in the house so tempting food is not left out. I once saw an episode on tv where cameras and loud noises were used to catch the dog in the act when humans were out of the room. Can you set up a dog cam?

For garbage, can you use a small metal one with lid that fits snugly? Or put garbage under counter and use child/dog proof lock? Use garbage bags with a fragrance to make food scraps harder to smell? Just a few ideas.


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## patk

Countryboy said:


> Not too many ideas coming here. So I'll give u a sure-fire method... and then I'll duck. :ahhhhh:
> 
> Counter-surfing and garbage stealing are easily solved. The side of a foot in the ribs can solve it in a minute. Or catch them with a swat that they'll never forget.


well i do think one reason my food motivated dog does not pick up food from the ground or floor (unless it's a thrown treat and i say "find it!") is that to stop him once from scarfing up chicken bones from an open garbage bag we came across on a late night walk, i did use the ear pinch on him. he was off leash and ignoring "leave it!" because obviously the temptation was more compelling than the command. fortunately i caught up with him before he could swallow any bones and repeated the command accompanied by the pinch. i have to admit i was a bit panicked, too, so it was not an elegant, only slightly uncomfortable pinch. but thinking about it, i would do it again. over 15+ years, it has saved me from worrying about my dog disobeying that command and possibly becoming deathly ill.


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## lily cd re

As I said in my if you could change just one thing thread I wish I had caught that in the act the very first time and dealt with it very firmly!


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## patk

i think sometimes we are talking about painful (maybe literally for the dog) choices. those should not be easy choices for anyone imo. i reacted without really thinking. upon reflection, i don't regret it. but it would really be better if those kinds of decisions were thought through. maybe that's one of the flaws of today's training - not enough examination of what would you do if... it's one of the reasons i believe in the importance of having knowledge of many tools with regard to training and of recognizing that dogs, like children, are all different.

a friend of mine (now deceased) who was a newspaperwoman in the fdr days once told me she recalled an interview with charles lindbergh. he was asked if he believed in spanking children. he said, "it depends on the child." i tend to think that kind of nuanced approach is important with dogs, too.


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## lily cd re

Thinking back to when Lily started counter surfing I think if I had roared at her it would have done the trick. She is very sensitive to thinking I am mad at her. Not all methods are for all dogs though, that's for sure!


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## Indiana

lily cd re said:


> Thinking back to when Lily started counter surfing I think if I had roared at her it would have done the trick. She is very sensitive to thinking I am mad at her. Not all methods are for all dogs though, that's for sure!


It wouldn't have worked with Maddy. She counter surfs every day and even a receipt or a dish cloth is reward enough for her dash happily to her crate to chew up her ill-gotten gains. My sister has a golden retriever though, and all she had to do was put a can of coins on the edge of the counter. He accidentally knocked it off and that was it. He never counter surfed again. Some dogs are just so good that way. Also where I buy the dogs' food in the tack shop, the owner's beautiful silver lab is there with easy reach to all the bullies and wonderful treats and she never takes even one!!! The owner says the dog thinks she has to have one new toy from the shelf every day, but that's all she takes. Amazing!


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## Saphire

Thanks for all the replies

I do not think a swat would have stopped Korra. When she is caught in the act and I yell (about anything) she stops for a little while and then starts again. I like the coin idea, I will try it. I did put some pepper on the counter and that did not help (except make a mess)

There is simply no place in the kitchen to hide the garbage, otherwise I would


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## CharismaticMillie

I have an idea re: trash - our trash can actually has a latch that locks it shut. It's a plastic Simplehuman trash can.


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## Countryboy

There's all kinds of neat projects if u want to give them a shot... cans of coins or other noise-makers. 

My favourite would be the old-fashioned mousetraps. A versatile little startling device that u can rig up to go off when something on the counter is disturbed. Then sit back and giggle.


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## CharismaticMillie

I've got a bad counter surfer. She has trained us well to just keep food out away - always. And when I forget, I pay!


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## Desiree

Since your dog is having nipping, excitable behavior issues I would not try swatting the dog or trying to inflict any pain when deal with these behavior issues. This could lead to reactive/anxiety biting especially if there are children in the house.

You really need a behaviorist to help learn to manage your dog's energy and so it can learn that patient, calm behavior; not being pushy or bullying is the way to fun. 

Simple human makes a locking garbage can. As for the counter surfing, in my house this dog would not be alone in the kitchen until it was trained. Good Luck!


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## Poodlebeguiled

Desiree said:


> Since your dog is having nipping, excitable behavior issues I would not try swatting the dog or trying to inflict any pain when deal with these behavior issues. This could lead to reactive/anxiety biting especially if there are children in the house.
> 
> You really need a behaviorist to help learn to manage your dog's energy and so it can learn that patient, calm behavior; not being pushy or bullying is the way to fun.
> 
> Simple human makes a locking garbage can. As for the counter surfing, in my house this dog would not be alone in the kitchen until it was trained. Good Luck!


I agree. Good post.

Punishment, especially really rough aversives cause more behavior problems than it helps. When I had my business, I saw more dogs that had aggression issues caused by rough treatment...defensive behavior, shut down, you name it. And besides, it isn't nice. There are better ways. In addition to keeping stuff off the counters diligently, I'd work on some self control exercises. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc. When a dog learns to "leave it" because he gets something better and even sometimes the thing he is leaving AFTER he leaves it, he learns to generalize the behavior. The more training a dog has, the better he learns to generalize to other kinds of behaviors. (something dogs don't do very well at first or naturally) 

When you wait for a real life situation to try and train out a behavior or train something in, you don't get to regulate the scenario or the distractions, the level of value of something. You need to start where it's easy for the dog and reinforce, reinforce, reinforce with something that is higher on the hierarchy of value than the thing he is not getting at. And you have to be the one to control the graduated value of things as he succeeds at a lower value. 

When people wait for something to happen in day to day life, (and that goes for all kinds of behaviors) to try to do something to stop it, they can't expect that to work very well because they might be starting at a level the dog isn't ready for yet. And frustration ensues and as a result, people tend to resort to mistreatment because what they're doing isn't working. You can't take a dog that is already in the act of something that is based off of a hard wired, instinctive behavior and expect to beat it out of him...not without a lot of potential fall out. 

So, take the time to do some exercises to teach impulse control, to teach that by waiting and leaving something alone, better things will come to the dog...much better things. Don't let the dog practice this behavior you don't want. Keep the counters clear, use distractions...prevent the behavior. Reward the dog for standing there, even for 2 seconds of NOT jumping up on the counter. People are so willing to dish out all kinds of punishment but forget to reinforce wanted behaviors.

I had a marathon counter surfer. He found out, once I got busy with training, that it doesn't work. There's simply no pay-off for that behavior. BUT..._NOT_ doing it does work and it works well.

You can make better the situation, but the best prevention in this kind of case is simply physically preventing the dog from being able to get into garbage or stuff on the counter. If you're not around, a lot of dogs will try for it regardless because they are opportunistic scavengers. There's nothing we can do about that. lol. The impulse control training might help a lot. Some dogs are more persistent than others. I would utilize that because it's good for all kinds of other things too. Once the dog is pretty good at staying away from things, you can move onto training when you're not around...when you hide behind a wall and peek out every few seconds, reinforce and hide again, gradually increasing the duration the dog stays OFF the counter. lol. But I think dogs catch on pretty quickly what our game is so they know we're there. But you can work gradually up to being further away. That is, if you want to take all that time to train this. I wouldn't. I'd keep the counters clean and work on things that interest me more.


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## ItzaClip

Excellent free video on Karen Pryor site right now. http://www.brilliantrecalls.com/sq/39862-breaking-the-dog-training-rules 
Video #2 has the "mugging game" as I teach it/was taught it. Excellent impulse control. This method makes sense and works. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## janet6567

My son has two black labs who love to raid the trash when he is gone, but they never do it when someone is at home. He purchased a heavy rubber/plastic trashcan with a hinged lid that has a lock you push in to keep the lid secured. As long as they remember to lock the trashcan when they leave the girls cannot get into it. He purchased it at Home Depot or Lowes a couple of years ago.


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## Indiana

I agree in that I am just not cut out for negative reinforcement, not with my kids, not with my dogs...it's not me. BUT, I would hesitate on implying it's easy to correct. There IS no treat that's better to Maddy than the challenge of finding her own cool stuff. Not just on counters, everywhere. That's why I only have 2 seat belts in the back of my car, and a mutilated rear view mirror. It's not the tasty food she finds, it's the challenge and excitement of new discovery, I have come to believe. When she was younger she was not allowed in the kids' bedrooms because she would chew up their things, and I was given the advice to clear everything out of there that she liked so she'd realize it was boring and not bother. That never happened! Even with a clinically clean upstairs, she'd race up there at every opportunity and shred a pillow, chew up a library book or shred all the bathroom tissue in the bathroom. So my point is, I am all for obedience training and she is in UD training (and loving it!) now, but it's not really fair to make it seem like it's simple, just do this or that! presto, problem solved.


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## patk

Indiana said:


> it's not really fair to make it seem like it's simple, just do this or that! presto, problem solved.


that is also true of training using punishment - positive or negative. humans fool themselves if they think any one method always works for any dog on the planet. we talk about not setting the dog up for failure. i think we need to learn not to set the human up for failure, either, by admitting that not everything works for everyone. this is one of the reasons i shall always respect patricia mcconnell - for admitting she rehomed one of her dogs because there simply was not enough work on her farm for the dog. it's important to recognize facts about the dog and oneself for what they are. if you can't change certain behaviors, you may have to decide if you can live with them and how you will do so.


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## ericwd9

*Fast Food on the counter*

My Girl Grace only ever once took food from our kitchen bench.
She is a medium size standard at 55lbs. and can see over the bench easily.
I left food out purposefully when I could watch her. When she even looked at MY food I verbally disciplined her.
She was never given food until we had all eaten ours. Her food was always in her bowl.
Dogs have a good sense of ownership and they know what is yours and what is theirs. But if you often give them what is yours they will see it as theirs.
This applies to shoes and other items too. Grace has her toys and I have mine.
The only time she will touch my shoes is to bring them to me when requested.
Encourage ownership. Have them know things belong to them but make sure you can take from them. If they take from you use discipline and reward them for good behavior.
Dogs do not lie and do not have evil intentions EVER.
Eric.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Here's a good article if you want good advice.

Counter Surfing is an All Too-Frequent Dog Behavior Issue for Many Dog Owners.


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## GeriDe

Khaos is just starting to counter surf. He leaves garbage alone and could have gotten into that long ago but - yep - CRASH and it comes down. My summer break starts Thursday so - well - it's time to do some rearranging. I just need to put everything in its place and keep it there. If it's not there to tempt him - he has nothing to do. 

I do have to admit though - when he got hold of one of my fave pairs of shoes - he felt the shoe on his ass - not hard - just harsh and loud - he's been leaving them alone even though he can reach that shelf - so far.


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## Streetcar

LEUllman said:


> At 16-1/2", Beau is too short to counter surf. But that doesn't mean he can't tell us all about those yummy things he knows are up there, just out of reach. And tell us he does, in great detail!


LOL, we just bought those exact treats last weekend and now every time I move a plastic bag he pops up eagerly anticipating a treat. Such a cute photo of Beau!


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## Michelle

With my Golden who is 10, she will _very_ occasionally counter surf to this day. In fact yesterday was the first time in years...my sister had 3 ground beef patties prepared for the grill, she stepped outside for a minute or two to start the grill and when she game back in 2 of those patties magically disappeared lol. She is much better now but was a terror as a puppy. She just trained us to keep food out of her reach and after doing that for years she just kind of gave up. She will steal dish towels and rags hanging on the kitchen drawers and brings them to whomever enters the house, but she just carries them around and hasn't ripped any up.

The Spoo I raised/trained as a service dog a few years ago would counter surf...but she wouldn't eat anything she grabbed. She would grab the loaf of bread/bag of hamburger buns/brick of cheese and set it on the floor for the other dogs to eat. I never once saw he eat anything she took because she knew better...but that didn't stop her from stealing the food to feed her friends lol. We always joked that the other dogs talked her into it, and had a good laugh. 

What we did for both of them was set them up for failure...set a piece of hotdog close to the edge of the counter and sit across the room reading/pretend to not be paying attention and when they would get on their hind legs to get the food we would toss a water bottle 1/4 full of pennies at the cabinet near them that would make a very unpleasant noise and scare the bejesus out of them. Act like nothing happened, no praise, no acknowledgment what so ever...they think they did something to set it off and they never realized it was us who caused the noise. It solved the problem very quickly. 

As for the garbage, is there a lower cabinet in your kitchen or a closet you could put it in? We just have a heavy aluminum garbage can with a pedal you step on to open the top. Our dogs never figured out how to get into it.


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## Indiana

Oh my goodness Michelle, my sister's golden used to counter surf...in other people's houses!! I GUESS people left their doors open or something in the summer in my sister's neighbourhood because one day I saw the dog trotting down the street for home carefully holding something in her mouth. I opened the door for her, and she proudly pranced in holding a great big round roast wrapped in butcher's twine! (raw) We have no idea where she got it. My sister said after I left, the same dog brought her a ripe tomato from somewhere; she said she was hoping the next gift would be a potato so they could have a balanced meal, lol. Seriously though she was horrified because there must've been some mad neighbours, although she didn't find out who it was.


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## lily cd re

Lily and I just came back from my mom's where Lily had a great time checking out mom's kitchen counter tops which are not nearly so clear as mine since Wolfie is a small mini. She has also gone upstairs at other people's houses and checked out everybody's bedrooms and the bathrooms. Thankfully they have all been dog people who knew enough about her before they invited her along to not be put off by how forward my girlie girl can be!

Doesn't help you OP, but maybe knowing that you are not alone gives some solace.


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## Poodlebeguiled

I had a pizza in the oven once (well, more than once) and it was pretty much finished so I opened the oven door, just a tad (like where it sets when you broil) and my Doberman somehow opened the oven door all the way (I think he pulled on the dish towel that was hanging on the handle) and took the pizza right off the rack, I guess without getting burned.

I had two German Shepherds steal a steak right off the hibachi, amongst the flames and all. I went inside for a minute, came right back out and it was gone, the dogs licking their lips. (2 separate occasions, one dog each time... not that they worked in sync. lol) One grill was a hibachi, the other a taller grill. Sheesh! How they do it without getting burned, I'll never know. Who would've thunk it?


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## Indiana

It's like fjm said once, if someone left a moist chocolate layer cake and some sparkling wine uncorked on a coffee table and left me alone with it for an hour, I can't guarantee I wouldn't sneak a tiny piece and a drink


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## nifty

I've been thinking about this (also the "if there was one thing you could change..." thread on poodle talk). If there was a way to wind back the clock and start over, what would be the best way to train to avoid counter-surfing behavior? I looked at the kikopup video and that looks like a start and yet I am not sure it would be 100% foolproof with a larger dog than the little guy she is training there. Suggestions?


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## lily cd re

If I could go back on this here is what I would do. When I first noticed that the feet could go up and get the nose in trouble, I would have set up failure opportunities where I could have spied on Lily and given her a very loud and startling dissuasive surprise as soon as I saw her fall into the trap. Repeating as needed along with keeping the counters clean and clear might have done the trick.


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## nifty

Helpful, thanks!


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## lily cd re

I'm not sure if that would work, but it can't be any worse than how things are with this. She takes papers too and I think she may have eaten something the other day. It hasn't reappeared yet and she seems fine though.


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## ericwd9

I agree with Lily,
I have now trained 4 large house dogs (two being standard poodles)
When small they would raise their noses to the bench and make approving sounds and gestures. When getting big enough to get to the bench surface I would not leave any food (or interesting stuff) on the benches except when I
could supervise access. Their food would be cut up on the bench and left a while to tempt them. Any move to investigate was met with a growling "NO"
(I keep commands simple at the beginning). I would leave delectable things on the bench and observe behavior. Any move to put paws on bench or nose above bench height was met with correction.
My current Girl "Grace" is the smartest dog I have yet had the pleasure of sharing my home with. She outsmarted me and while my attention was diverted, very quickly, jumped up and stole a piece of cooked pork (her favorite and cooling for her meal) I was able to act immediately and took it from her and admonished her severely. She was 4 months old and is now 18 months and has not taken or threatened anything on the bench since.
I still leave delectables on the bench (defrosting meat etc) it is now safe.

I have found this method to work for me. I have also found that most dogs differentiate more than humans. They are willing to learn what they can have and what they can not have. But if you have a bookcase full of books or CDs then just because they can not have this CD does not mean to them that they can not have some other one. Just because they can not have my left shoe does not mean to them that they can not have my right one.

Grace was smarter and learned that ALL things were not hers or to be mouthed or taken except for those I gave "ceremoniously" to her. They become her possessions, though she will let us have them. She loves all her possessions. Her blankets and bedding, all her toys and her leash. She respects all our possessions and will only touch them when asked to "FETCH " them for our use. I often feel like she is one of my previous girls reborn to live with me in my old age. She constantly surprises me with her knowledge of things I have not taught her.

All that being said I did have a Staghound/Heeler cross that needed at least a hundred lessons to keep off the bench! Smart dog but determined too.

Eric.


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## Rusty

We have the countersurfing problem, too, although not the garbage. It's a tough one, mostly because it involves intermittent rewards for the dog (so the behaviour is strongly reinforced).

I've been watching some Susan Garrett videos the last few days, and she suggests extending the "It's yer choice" game to address counter-surfing and other problems. We had good success with "It's yer choice" at the "parlour trick" level, as she calls it (holding kibble in the hand or putting it on the floor). Yesterday I went home and tried it with the counter. I put a tasty bit of cheese on the edge of the counter, and Begley went for it. I didn't swat him or say "no," I just covered up the cheese with my hand. He got off the counter, and I waited until he did a good "sit," then I gave him the cheese. I repeated a few times with some dog cookie, and one the second try I put the cookie on the edge of the counter, and watched as Begley stood there, looked at the cookie, and thought about jumping up to get it. Instead, he chose to do a "sit," and I rewarded his choice by giving him the cookie. In less than one minute he figured out that he got the treat off the counter when he sat, but not when he stood up and reached for it himself.

Now, I'm not under any illusion that we've fixed the counter-surfing problem after one training session, but I'm encouraged that with more practice, we may be able to move beyond managing the problem (by never leaving food within dog reach) to having him be more trustworthy.

Here's the link to the videos:
The Power of Choice


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## JudyD

rubymom said:


> Pain inflicted on a dog or child in an attempt to manage behavior is simply wrong. Positive behavior shaping methods are always the best choice!


I can't see how a mild static electricity shock is "brutal" or even inappropriate, especially if the dog is able to control whether or not it receives the correction. Clearly we aren't all going to agree on this, but as others have pointed out, all depends on the individual dog and the individual trainer.


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## Countryboy

CharismaticMillie said:


> While I generally avoid using any corrections, i am not personally against using a fair correction on my dogs when needed, but I long ago learned there is no correction that I would dare do that would be severe enough to keep my Millie off the counters.


I have the same attitude toward correction. Clarifying my way earlier post, the side of my foot in the ribs would not be my first correction. I like to use something that dogs understand so the first would be a growl... then a bark... then a nip/slap... then a bite/foot. 

Tonka has never been a counter-surfer. So I've never had to correct him for that. Barking out my patio door at people walking on the street behind me has been something I've tried to stop. I've taken the correction to the 'nip' stage but gave up after that... deciding to put up with the barking.

And just as a completely outside observation, causing a dog pain is relative too. I probably caused Tonka the most pain he's ever felt in his life when I ripped off the Fentanyl patch off his shaved skin after his surgery. It's the only time I've ever heard him yelp.

I'd have to think long and hard about causing pain in that situation and causing pain in another. Is one good and another bad? And what are the ramifications of both... I wonder.


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## LEUllman

I had to laugh when I noticed this thread has one of the highest reply and view counts of any thread in the General Obedience forum. Clearly, counter surfing is a popular poodle pastime!


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## Poodlebeguiled

CharismaticMillie said:


> *I think what Poodlebeguiled is saying isn't that poodles have evolved, but that the greater species has, over time, evolved from something*. Some studies suggest that maybe we have been wrong all of this time in thinking the grey wolf is what today's dogs evolved from, but that doesn't mean that dogs haven't evolved and it doesn't negate the fact that dogs are known scavengers.
> 
> I don't take Poodlebeguiled's post to indicate that there is only one way to train or that the fact that dogs are scavengers means there is one way to train. PBG is just sharing their beliefs.
> 
> While I generally avoid using any corrections, i am not personally against using a fair correction on my dogs when needed, but I long ago learned there is no correction that I would dare do that would be severe enough to keep my Millie off the counters. The easiest and most effective solution is just to never leave food out.


Actually, breeds have evolved too. They just evolved by means of artificial selection, not so much natural selection. If you look at early pictures of most of the breeds we have these days, they've changed over time. That's evolution. Artificial selection is like natural selection on steroids. It is sped up at Mach speed, which proves there is evolution.


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## charleygirl

*counter surfing*

Zeus is 5 months old and this has become a problem as he has grown and because i think he has managed to swipe a few things.... we had a cookout at our house and after the 30th time of saying no and pushing him down to stop jumping up I decided to try the coins in a cane method and the next time he jumped up I shook the can and told him NO! well that worked wonders - now all he has to do is see the can of coins and he just sits and looks at me.... he does not like it - I have to say I wish I tried this sooner - seemed a little mean to me, but it was getting frustrating and I think he gets the idea..


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## ericwd9

Charleygirl,
Different things seem to work better with different dogs.
Not surprising since the dogs have different personalities.
Especially poodles. now you have a way of showing displeasure that he understands.
Do not forget to reward him for the good things. When you are working at the bench with delicious things. have him sit as you say and look at you. (You have his attention) Give him a treat and tell him he is a good boy in a crooning high pitched voice. If he then puts his paws up use the can again and say NO! at the same time.
have him sit again and reward him for doing so. In time hopefully he will learn that his GOOD behavior works better than his BAD.
Eric


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## FireStorm

Boy, I guess we are really lucky...Hans is 9mos old, not crated anymore, and
we leave food on the counters but he doesn't take it. My previous dog is was the same way. With my previous dog I could put a steak on the floor, leave the room, and come back and it would still be there. He would only take food by hand or in his bowl....don't think I would try it with Hans yet, though. Maybe it is just because he has never managed to get anything, so he doesn't even know there is good stuff there (I really don't think I can take credit for it with either dog, it's just how they are/were).


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## BorderKelpie

Maybe what I tell you all will make everyone feel better. 

I dare you, double dog dare you to keep a house pig out of the trash. *sigh* Did you know a pig can rip the cabinet door off to get to the trash can inside? They can. In seconds, and they'll fight you for the trash. 

Dogs are sooooo easy once you live with a pig.


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## Indiana

Double, triple "like"


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## patk

border kelpie - have you tried keeping the trash can on the counter - hopefully too high for a pig to reach - maybe? :biggrin1::flypig:


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## BorderKelpie

Trust me, I've thought of that, but guess who MY counter surfer is? Yup, an overweight 7 pound Chihuahua. 

I give up. 

Seriously, the trash is usually locked in the laundry room (when the kids are at school/work). When the kids are home - all bets are off as to where anything is. 
(I've tried telling them that the animals destroy things they leave out because they are trying to do the housecleaning chores the kids refuse to do. That's not going over well lol)


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## ericwd9

I lived with a pig for years she would fight me for food but never ripped the doors off!


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## BorderKelpie

ericwd9, my Yorkshire sow was so easy, this potbelly boar - not so much. lol I stupidly thought a smaller pig would be easier in the house than Mozart was. Boy, was I ever wrong! I don't know if it's because he's a boy or because he's a potbelly. 

He's sweet when he wants to be, though. Love his tummy rubs.


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## ericwd9

All pigs are not created equal.
He is most likely training you quite well!
Eric.


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