# Question about eyes



## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

You have a special case here, since poodles almost never have blue eyes. Do you know anything about his pedigree, and the colors (body colors/patterns) of his ancestors? Genetically, it's really hard to explain how he was born with them without seeing his ancestry, and knowing if he has certain patterns would help.

I'm not sure in Poodles, but often in other breeds with freckled skin patterns or merle with blue eyes (like Australian Shepherds), you sometimes see puppies born with speckled eyerims and noses. They are expected to fill in with black as they age, although they sometimes don't finish all the way. The black is VERY desirable in any case, because blue eyes can be very light sensitive, so the "eyeliner" helps block the light reflection from the white hair into sensitive eyes.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks lavillerose. Unfortunately we don't know anything about his ancestry. I knew that blue eyse were sensitive to light but had no idea that the black "eyeliner" helps to block the reflective light. What about the tiny black patch above his eye? It's about the size of the tip of my fingerprint. Maybe even smaller. It's above the eye that now has the eyeliner.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

I'm going to guess your puppy might have the merle color genetics in his ancestry somewhere. Not common at all, poodle breeders usually avoid merle because the color is genetically linked to a variety of health issues, but I have seen merle poodles popping up, unfortunately. Not to offend if Casper is (genetically) merle, but it's not a color we want in poodles, or rather we don't want the health problems that can sometimes come with it.

Sometimes with certain merle gene combinations, you get a puppy that's entirely blue eyed white, maybe with tiny spots of color. That might explain the one spot.

The other possibility is that he's an extreme piebald (parti) which is what most pure white dog breeds are considered (like Bichons or Samoyeds). They appear entirely white, but they have skin and eye pigment, so they are not Albino. But that doesn't explain Casper's blue eyes the way merle genes do. Most white dogs still have dark eyes/skin pigment.

White Aussies - This site is about Australian Shepherds, but it does have a lot of info about how double merle, extreme piebald, and other weird white-associated color genetics work.

I've been fascinated with animal color genetics since I was a little kid, so coming across one that's really hard to explain like Casper has me scratching my head!


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

No offense taken. When we saw Casper, it all just clicked into place. I know that everyone considers the blue eyes a fault but we love him anyway. Today I noticed that his other eye is starting to get the black eyeliner. The tiny black patch over the eye is right over the top outline of his eye. The rims of his eyes were always pink as well as the area surrounding the eyes. Thanks for the link on the australian shepherds. I'm really interested in more info on the merle gene and that will really be helpful.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Since you don't know Casper's parents, where did you get him? Is he 100% poodle? I have never seen a blue eyed poodle, but he certainly is adorable!! Do you have some close up pictures? Many breeds of dogs start off with lighter lips, eye rims and noses that get darker as they grow up, usually dark by a year old. Dalmations are born white and don't get their black spots until older, for example. Casper seems to look like a poodle in his pictures, but this development of spots and his eye color is curious!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

From what I understand, some people believe merle is one of the original throwback colors in poodles (like parti colors), but other people say it was never an original poodle color and that disreputable backyard breeders introduce the merle gene into poodles in order to sell "rare" merle poodles. For small poodles these breeders might use Chihuahuas, Mini Aussies, etc. The blue eyes are linked to the merle gene so I suspect Casper has that gene.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

We did get to meet his mother who we were told was a purebred mini poodle. She was beautiful with a great personality! His father was her owner's cousin's dog who was also a pure bred mini poodle. Both were white with clear dark eyes. They didn't have any intention of breeding them but it happened. They were not in the breeding business and but did appear to be loving pet owners. The puppies and mother were on good quality food and kept in clean and humane living conditions and lived as a part of the family. His mother was almost 3 years old and she was going to be fixed as soon as she recovered from the birth and the vet gave the okay. 

I haven't posted pictures in a long time and seem to forgotten how cause I can't them to appear. If someone can tell me how, I'll post them.

His eyes have gotten darker as he's gotten older. Indoors they appear dark but outside they appear blue. Sort of like a newborn baby's eyes began to change.


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> From what I understand, some people believe merle is one of the original throwback colors in poodles (like parti colors), but other people say it was never an original poodle color and that disreputable backyard breeders introduce the merle gene into poodles in order to sell "rare" merle poodles. For small poodles these breeders might use Chihuahuas, Mini Aussies, etc. The blue eyes are linked to the merle gene so I suspect Casper has that gene.


Yes, this is happening in several breeds, so it's hard to say whether it's a throwback or a singular outcross to something that did carry the merle factor. In American Cockers, it's being hotly debated as well. Merle never showed up in the breed until 1989, and all merle factored Cockers can trace back to a single dog. There's no photo evidence, so no one can say for sure if that dog was a crossbreed or just an oddball.

It's a beautiful color pattern, but the health issues associated mean breeders need to really be educated in genetics, and unfortunately a lot of BYBs are not interested, all they want is to tack "Rare" on their dogs for $$$. Aussies are extremely popular in my area, and I see a lot of double merle Aussies in the shop due to BYBs, so I've seen the eye and deafness issues firsthand.

My guess, from what Gina has told us that Casper came from an unintentional, yet pure breeding, is that somewhere, probably far back in one or both of the dogs' pedigrees, was either an outcross, or they just happen to carry a throwback gene that crops up once in every hundred blue moons!

In any case, a blue eyed white poodle, soon to be with guyliner? He's going to be a conversation-starter, Gina!


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Trying to remember how to post a pic...


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Lets see if this works.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Sorry the pictures posted so big. I hope this helps you guys to see what I'm talking about.


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## soon2bmommi (Mar 9, 2011)

Ginagbaby1 said:


> Sorry the pictures posted so big. I hope this helps you guys to see what I'm talking about.


Im just curious, what did the vet say? Did you have him look or refer him to a eye vet?


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

soon2bmommi said:


> Im just curious, what did the vet say? Did you have him look or refer him to a eye vet?


The vet told us that his eyes/sight is completely normal but we haven't taken him to a specialist. We've never noticed any problems with his eyes and he can track a ladybug in a patch of grass with no problems.

That first picture is kind of goofy. He wouldn't stay still for a picture so I told him we were going for a walk and he stopped dead in his tracks before doing his happy dance!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

As long as you aren't planning on breeding him and he is healthy, what a coolio looking poodle! He does look all poodle from these pictures, so he must be an odd throwback. The darkening on his eyerims plus his black nose and lips means he isn't an albino, which have a lot of health issues. It is quite normal for the eyerims, lips and nose to darker as they grow. 

I would enjoy the cute little guy he is. He is certainly a conversation piece. The color of the blue is beautiful, like a caribbean sea. I would implore you to neuter him, though. Blue eyes are linked to health issues in many breeds. Luckily, it sounds like Casper (great name!) isn't one of them.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Thank you for looking at the pictures, Outwest. We are definitely going to have him neutered and are actually planning on doing sometime next month. I posted about him having all 4 of his dewclaws and if we should have them removed at the same time as the neuter. 

And he sure is a real conversation starter. Everywhere we bring him, people always ask about his eyes. It helps that he is such a friendly dog and wants to play with everyone he meets.


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## WestCoastSpoo (May 11, 2011)

Being a parti Huxley has different pigment on his body, but his eyes, lips and nose are all black except a little pink "freckle" on his nose. But his pigment has been exactly the same since he was a baby. It hasn't changed or shifted or anything at all. If your vet is aware of it and thinks it's normal I guess I wouldn't worry too much about it. He's a cute little guy and sounds like he has the best personality!


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## Mallhopper (Dec 16, 2011)

Oh my goodness! How pretty! Those eyes would get him whatever he wanted with me! Haha


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Ginagbaby1 said:


> And he sure is a real conversation starter. Everywhere we bring him, people always ask about his eyes. It helps that he is such a friendly dog and wants to play with everyone he meets.


I am sure his bright white coat and beautiful blue eyes are very attractive and get lots of attention. 

You would be a great poodle advocate if you shared with people that even though Casper is beautiful, poodles don't typically have blue eyes and let them know that it's not wise to search out a blue-eyed poodle on purpose. This would leave uneducated puppy buyers to those disreputable breeders who purposely breed blue-eyed and merle poodles.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> I am sure his bright white coat and beautiful blue eyes are very attractive and get lots of attention.
> 
> You would be a great poodle advocate if you shared with people that even though Casper is beautiful, poodles don't typically have blue eyes and let them know that it's not wise to search out a blue-eyed poodle on purpose. This would leave uneducated puppy buyers to those disreputable breeders who purposely breed blue-eyed and merle poodles.



I completely agree with you PaddleAddict. I explain to people that although his eyes are unique, it is not the breed standard and that the AKC considers this a major fault. I also explain that I did not set out to find a blue eyed poodle on purpose and the importance of not buying a puppy from a BYB or puppy mill situation.


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