# When to neuter tpoo - 6 months or a year????



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I would get him done at 6 mos. For a spoo, I'd say wait at least a year, but for a toy breed, I'd do it early. All the toy breeders I've heard from say it's fine to do it early.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

This is ancedotal but my guy didn’t start filling out with muscle and developing more masculine features until over 10 months and I think the added testosterone of being intact helps a lot. It totally depends though if that sort of thing matters to you. Im betting health wise it doesn’t make a big difference for toys but I really like the muscular body type and thicker head and neck on the fully developed male.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

What Phaz23 is saying is part of why I'm not even considering fixing Ranna at 6mos, though for behavioral reasons I'd prefer not to neuter him at all. His breeder strongly advised against neutering him before 18mos. because he wouldn't fill out properly if I did. Ranna is a Tibetan terrier not a poodle, but I feel the advice still applies as I've heard and seen the same thing with other breeds. Small heads, gangly bodies.

The humping doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sexual maturity. Plenty of dogs who were neutered early hump, some excessively. Plenty of intact dogs don't hump at all. It is a behavioral issue to be trained around and neutering won't necessarily fix it. I think Evelyn tried to hump me exactly once when he was intact, I firmly reprimanded him for it and he never tried it again. On the other hand I just took him to a dog park this weekend and he tried to hump three different male dogs, he's been neutered for a year now. I told him leave it for each of them in turn and he stopped trying.

The only thing it might actually help with is marking. But ultimately this is a training issue as well, neutering would only reduce the urge. Plenty of early neuters mark as well. Evelyn did not mark when he was intact and does not mark now.


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## Little Milo (Sep 1, 2021)

Our toy poodle puppy is 5 months old. Our breeder recommends neutering at 8 months. I plan to follow her advice.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Your dog won’t have time to develop like a male would (more muscle, broader head and shoulders) if you do it at that age. It’s not as noticeable on a toy, but still. I’d wait until 18 months, or at least 15.


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## Little Milo (Sep 1, 2021)

Our breeder’s health contract requires earlier neutering. We haven’t found any studies that show negative health consequences for neutering toys at that age, so we’re going ahead. Otherwise, we probably would wait.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

This is what you do to your dog if you neuter before he is done maturing. It looks so unnatural and bizarre.










Full article, since you can’t click on the picture :



__ https://www.facebook.com/chelsea.boynton.77/posts/4829274297104273


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

But Dechi, those are all large breeds. Also, we don't know if quality of breeding factored into those differences, nor do we know how old the dogs were at spay/neuter (could have been 8 weeks for all we know, right?). Toys reach maturity a lot faster than large breeds. If I ever get a toy breed again, I would be okay with early spay/neuter (meaning around 6 mos.) and I would have to be--it is actually required by most top Maltese breeders.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

We have not neutered our tpoo Luca. As Misteline writes, alot can be resolved by training. I read somewhere in another thread, that if it was a teenager they would get supplementary hormone treatment. I strongly believe the hormones are necessary for a healthy growth and development


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## CharlietheToy (Oct 20, 2021)

We neutered our tpoo at 6 months. I read all the pros and cons, but in the end we took our vet's advice and everything has been fine. (He needed to have a couple of remaining baby teeth removed around that time, and we also thought it was a good idea to do both at once.) He's a big, strong guy for a little dog, and he's also well-mannered. He still marks, but only outside, and he still humps occasionally, but only his favorite warthog stuffed toy. He'll be 14 months old tomorrow and has been part of our family for one year as of this week.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The latest study from UC Davis suggests different results for the poodle varieties depending on the age at desexing.

Toy poodles, male and female, seemed to have no long term physical effects from desexing at any age,_ of the concerns studied. 

Neutering may be associated with increased risks of debilitating joint disorders and some cancers, complicating pet owners' decisions on neutering. The joint disorders include hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament tear or rupture, and elbow dysplasia. The cancers include lymphoma, mast cell tumor, hemangiosarcoma, and osteosarcoma. 

The primary purpose was to offer readers some evidence-based information on breed-specific differences with vulnerability to neutering, including suggested guidelines for neutering ages to avoid increasing long-term health risks of neutering, if any. A secondary, unforeseen, purpose was to document breed-specific differences in the increases in some cancers associated with removal of gonadal hormones, as an area for possible research on genetic aspects of cancer occurrence. 








_

I remain in the camp of holding off til fully physically mature so all the hormones can do their jobs in developing the mature body and time enough for the growth plates to close.

Since pediatric/juvenile desexing isn't done for the individual dog's health but to keep unwanted dogs out of the population, I'll err on the side of my own pups health. Although there may be no ill effects from desexing early, there's also nothing to show that it's any benefit to them.

I waited til my mpoo boys were just over a year.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Yep. While toys mature earlier, imo if the dog is still growing it's too early to desex.


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## Little Milo (Sep 1, 2021)

From what I’ve seen, it looks like toy poodles reach their full height by about six months and their full weight by about nine months. Milo started lifting his leg and lavishing lots of attention on his boy parts at four and a half months, which I assume means his hormones have already kicked in. Perhaps that’s why the UC Davis study doesn’t show the same issues for neutering toys at an earlier age than standards?


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Little Milo said:


> From what I’ve seen, it looks like toy poodles reach their full height by about six months and their full weight by about nine months. Milo started lifting his leg and lavishing lots of attention on his boy parts at four and a half months, which I assume means his hormones have already kicked in. Perhaps that’s why the UC Davis study doesn’t show the same issues for neutering toys at an earlier age than standards?


I don't put too much stock in the leg lifting being a sign of hormones kicking in. Ranna and his brother were lifting their legs at 10 weeks and they definitely hadn't started puberty. I would be comfortable with neutering a toy at 9 mos. if it truly appeared to be done filling out and developing. But at that point I see no harm in waiting a couple more months to be absolutely sure. Some dogs develop faster, some slower. 18mos for a toy would be overkill, but if I could I would.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

In terms of health risks, I'd recommend waiting until the dog has filled out. Little poodles are so frail even when intact and neutering at 6 months will make a dog even more frail because they won't have as much bone to them. They definitely will continue to fill out after 6 months even if they reach full height by then.

I tend to agree with Phaz on the general subject of whether neutering is best. My mpoo is 2.75 years now and I hope to never need to neuter. His muscular development is so much better and he just has a much nicer gait than neutered dogs do. They lose muscle mass no matter how late you neuter which reduces rear drive. Marking is about training and doesn't necessarily correlate to whether a dog is intact. Marking is one of my dog's greatest joys in life but he knows not to do it indoors. And any dog can hump as well. It's something they do when over excited or stressed. With family dogs (chihuahua) I've seen the possible negative behavioral effects of neutering even later in life, and I don't want to risk those with my dog.

So with timing I would say I'd personally wait until I had a hormonal behavioral issue that training couldn't fix. Some dogs are overly hormonal and others aren't. I still don't like to risk my dog getting access to a female in heat so he had a vasectomy. Easy solution with males. And that satisfies any sterilization requirement.


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## Little Milo (Sep 1, 2021)

My biggest worry would be that a male who’s not neutered might catch a whiff of a female in heat, and put himself in danger trying to get to her. I’m not sure there’s one right answer on this. I think responsible people can weigh the various risks and come out in different places. I do agree that behavioral issues, such as marking, should be addressed through training.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I like to chime in on these threads to say that Gracie was spayed at an early age and was a lifelong humper and marker.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Genny said:


> I needed to let them know at least 3 weeks before he turned 6 months if I was going to neuter at 6 months (the other option is a year)


This is strictly curiosity on my part. Did they explain why they offered only 6m or 1y? I've heard of plenty of vets still pushing the 6m party line, to "help" their clients keep their dogs from reproducing but how odd to say that the only next opportunity is 1y. That's completely new to me. My girls were just over 2y, my boys were just over 1y. We could have chosen any time earlier (wouldn't) or later (seriously thought about it). We have members choosing even up thru senior years.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Little Milo said:


> My biggest worry would be that a male who’s not neutered might catch a whiff of a female in heat, and put himself in danger trying to get to her. I’m not sure there’s one right answer on this. I think responsible people can weigh the various risks and come out in different places. I do agree that behavioral issues, such as marking, should be addressed through training.


It's definitely a case by case basis to me. Dogs can also see a squirrel across the street and go chasing after it. Dogs are dogs and they'll always be distracted by some things but it will vary between individuals. My dog is around females in heat quite often and though he is sometimes interested, he has a well-trained recall and isn't mindless. He has never attempted to roam just from the smell of a dog. I know people have stories of dogs being attracted by the smell of a dog in heat, but I've never experienced it and we hike in an off leash area where there are many intact dogs. If they're recently out of a heat then mine might want to follow them a bit, but he'll come back and change directions with me if I go elsewhere. Other times he will barely show interest. If I had a dog that was constantly going crazy over females, I'd probably neuter. But that just doesn't seem very common.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I like to chime in on these threads to say that Gracie was spayed at an early age and was a lifelong humper and marker.


So was Zoe (jrt)!


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Just wanted to put a pic of the muscle development and face, Im talking about. This is Tekno in October and he’s even more muscular now. He shaved down to the skin but can you see how broad his chest, biceps, and flank is getting. I think it’s just gorgeous and great for his sports and supporting his delicate bones.
Also behaviorally he has many intact friends and behaves himself, and Im sure we’ve encountered at least one girl in heat but I didn’t notice a change in behavior. He doesn’t mark indoors and rarely outside (which I discourage with a “ah ah”). He does clean his penis a lot but I really doubt that would go away with neutering, it seems to be comforting to him :🤷:. Im more than likely not ever going to neuter him unless there was a big health reason to do so.
————-
Look at that little man face, it’s nothing like his baby face 🥲

















3 intact males, 1 intact female, 2 altered — all good friends


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

@Little Milo and @Raindrops

I've often wondered about these stories about male dogs who injure themselves trying to get to a female in heat. I don't doubt it happens, but I question the training and impulse control of that dog when a female in heat isn't in the area. It still seems like a training issue to me, and possibly a containment issue? I also feel like it isn't very common that a dog has that level of determination to chase tail. 

Of course I wouldn't want to discourage anyone who has actual reason to fear their male dog will roam or injure himself trying to chase tail, but I feel like this fear is the result of the populace not having much experience with intact dogs anymore and high social pressure to desex as early as can be made palatable.

If I was concerned about my dog roaming or going into some kind of frenzy I would look at the level of impulse control my dog demonstrates when not exposed to a female in heat, evaluate whether I've devoted enough training into that skill, and proceed from there. It may truly be a hormonal issue, in which case neuter may be the only answer. But I feel like people are so quick to jump to neuter because it's been marketed as a magic bullet to solve all problems, when it actually is only a magic bullet for one or two. One was the ballooning unwanted pet population and the second is the risk of cancer in the organs being removed. The first could in some areas be addressed with other sterilization procedures that leave the hormone sources intact, the second I feel is overemphasized and weighed too highly.

I do agree with Little Milo that reasonable minds could disagree, but I have concern that some of the pushback people are getting out in the world is the result of a "do it this way because this is how we've always done it" mentality. I can't imagine that any vet, breeder, or pet owner really wants to believe that what they've been doing and advising their whole career isn't in the best interest of the dogs they care for. That's a hard psychological block to get over, especially when you know there are people out there who truly cannot be trusted to be responsible.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Phaz23 said:


> 3 intact males, 1 intact female, 2 altered — all good friends


That trail looks familiar...I used to live in LA and took my girl at the time, Zooey, to Runyon Canyon and one of the other canyons, either Franklin or the other popular one LOL.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I had Lenny neutered at 8 1/2 months I would've waited longer but He needed 13 retained baby teeth pulled and I only wanted to put him under anesthesia once. 
My only dog that humped was Beatrice and she humped sweet old Flower.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> This is strictly curiosity on my part. Did they explain why they offered only 6m or 1y? I've heard of plenty of vets still pushing the 6m party line, to "help" their clients keep their dogs from reproducing but how odd to say that the only next opportunity is 1y. That's completely new to me. My girls were just over 2y, my boys were just over 1y. We could have chosen any time earlier (wouldn't) or later (seriously thought about it). We have members choosing even up thru senior years.


The explanation was that at 6 months he would be ready but that waiting until a year would let him finish maturing. To do it inbetween would be to interupt the additional development, I guess


Here are my thoughts on the matter...

My mini-poos were neutered at 6 months and had no ill effects from it. One lived to 14 (died accidentally) and the other died at 17. They were both funny and spunky and sweet and perfect. A neighbor of mine (who has a 12 year old mini poodle) had left hers intact. But last fall he had a medical issue and had to have an emergency neutering to save his life. My feeling is the earlier in life you have surgery, the better you will heal from it.

And honestly I thought it just happens at 6 months... I had no idea that there was a benefit to waiting. I told my vet I'd look into it... and once I looked into it, my mind was blown. There is no clear answer, IMO. I don't want to hurt my dog by doing it too soon or by waiting. 

I had heard toys mature earlier so in a way, wouldn't neutering at 6 months be better than neutering a mini at 6 months (as I did)

IDK!!!!!!


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Genny said:


> The explanation was that at 6 months he would be ready but that waiting until a year would let him finish maturing. To do it inbetween would be to interupt the additional development, I guess
> 
> 
> Here are my thoughts on the matter...
> ...


If how the dog will heal is your biggest concern about waiting and you trust your vet, I would just ask your vet about it. Be very clear that you do intend to neuter and you just want to know whether letting your poodle develop to maturity would have significant detrimental effects on his health.

In my own experiences, no vet has brought that up as a concern. They've pulled out just about every other bugaboo, but not that one. Neutering is a very straightforward procedure whether it happens at 6mos or a year as long as there isn't something else happening that complicates things. While a year may seem old when you're used to neutering at 6months, it really isn't. He'll still be producing plenty of cells to heal up.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

MaizieFrosty said:


> That trail looks familiar...I used to live in LA and took my girl at the time, Zooey, to Runyon Canyon and one of the other canyons, either Franklin or the other popular one LOL.


You got it  Trebek Open Spaces, practically attached to Runyon


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

MaizieFrosty said:


> But Dechi, those are all large breeds. Also, we don't know if quality of breeding factored into those differences, nor do we know how old the dogs were at spay/neuter (could have been 8 weeks for all we know, right?). Toys reach maturity a lot faster than large breeds. If I ever get a toy breed again, I would be okay with early spay/neuter (meaning around 6 mos.) and I would have to be--it is actually required by most top Maltese breeders.


She also talks about small breeds in the other link.

As I mentioned (I think), it doesn’t show as much in small breeds, but even if it doesn’t show, hormones still have a role to play.

The first dog I bought myself was a boston terrier. His dad was such a nice fellow, very muscular, with a broad head and shoulders. I had his son neutered when he was 6 months old. He was the best dog I ever had, but he turned out to be very lanky, not muscular at all and he looked kind of odd. Not like a male, not like a female. For lack of knowledge, I turned a beautiful being into something bizarre. Never again !


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Genny said:


> The explanation was that at 6 months he would be ready but that waiting until a year would let him finish maturing. To do it inbetween would be to interupt the additional development, I guess


If this were the case tho, it stands to reason that if development would be interrupted in between 6m-1y, then development would also be interrupted at 6m.



Genny said:


> I had heard toys mature earlier so in a way, wouldn't neutering at 6 months be better than neutering a mini at 6 months (as I did)


Toys do mature faster, but maturity isn't just a visible physical trait. It's really not very different from humans. Imagine your own development being interrupted at your 5 or10 or 15 year old self, not just your height but any body system that depends on the growth hormones that are lost in desexing.

My mpoo boys still hadn't reached their full, mature height and weight by their neuter at just over 1y. They grew a bit more in height, added a couple of pounds, and their behavior was still changing until about 2y.


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

I had every intention of neutering Sammy once he was 1 year old. Through much research, I decided earlier neutering had no benefits. I wanted him to get the hormones for growth/strength for at least a year. Sammy will be 3 years old at the end of January and he is still intact. I chose to keep him intact because I have NO behavior issues with him. If I ever do, I will re-think. From my research, there are increased risks from various cancers/health concerns whether you neuter or not. I think it depends on the individual dog. All my previous dogs have been spayed/neutered and I've had mixed consequences.

1. Female beagle - spayed, no difference in her behavior.

2. Male standard Australian Shepard - neutered young. No difference in personality. Grew to be very leggy/narrow frame. He is still alive and loving life at 16 yrs. old.

3. Male Miniature Pincher - neutered very young ( I think 20 weeks? vet recommended) - obsessively marked EVERYTHING. No amount of training could help with this. He was also very dominant, would become aggressive and there was no way to stop him from making his "rounds" every hour to mark each room in the house, except for confining him, which only limited the area he marked.

4. Male mini Australian Shepard - very sweet puppy, loved everyone - people and all other animals. After neutering ( at 12 months ), became dog aggressive. We cannot take him anywhere where he may meet another dog. He is fine at home with a tpoo, ragdoll cat and ducks. We have a small parrot that we don't let him have access to, but he is not predatory towards anyone at home. The one time he was able to bolt through the door, he chased a smaller dog INTO my neighbors home and nipped the other dog on the butt. 

So, from my experience, it just depends on the individual dog. As long as Sammy does not have behavioral issues being intact ( he still squats to pee ), I'm not willing to take the risk of his personality changing (my mini aussie changed) and it does not seem that neutering really helps decrease future health problems. Also, when we began agility, it was evident to me that my dog needs to be structurally sound.

Sammy is the only pet I have ever had that is intact. I never thought I would not de-sex any pet, but he gives me no reason to opt for the operation. The only draw-back is that I'm afraid other dogs may target him/be aggressive towards him because he is intact.

It is a difficult decision and you do not know what results you will get. I think most dogs respond well (I guess). I just know my mini aussie was pretty much ruined from socializing with anyone out of the household after his neuter, it did not help with behavior issues (marking with my min pin) and didn't have any affect on my other aussie or cat.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I really can’t see any benefit to neutering before a year old. Am I missing something?

Peggy had a major grow spurt around 18 months. Yes, she’s a spoo, but there’s no way toys are fully mature at 6 months.


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