# Articles in PV on conformation and temperament



## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

I read the articles. I think that both had valid points. Not being very experienced in poodles I can only relate to it as I have seen the same changes in GSDs over the years and I think that the points addressed likely apply to all breeds. As far as conformation it tragic that people breed for winners vs breeding to standard. I think that breeders do hold a responsibility not to breed dogs with major faults in temperament & conformation. I also think that judges, if judging to a standard should not be afraid to choose a dog that doesn't have the same 'type' as the others in a class if it is in fact closer to ideal per the standard. Also if a judge is not familiar with a breed they are judging why not refer to the standard prior to the class? I saw more than one judge do just that at the UKC show I attended. 

It seems that we as humans tend to be drawn to extremes and as such many breeds are far from able to perform their original jobs.That is why you tend to see a difference between working dogs and show dogs of the same breed
Ever seen a show lab vs a field lab? What I have noticed in poodles is that it seems hair covers a multitude of sins. I certainly don't think that a dog in full continental could perform well as a water retriever. It seems like that amount of hair would get heavy & hinder movement. Certainly I would be willing to show in AKC if the hair weren't so extreme. Yes I could technically show in an hcc but since my dog would look very different would he stand a chance? Would judges be willing to step out on that limb?

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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Are the articles available online?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

They are available on line, but you have to have a subscription to see them.  I can't copy/paste them because it isn't allowed (they would pull my subscription). 
http://www.poodlevariety.com/back.html

The conformation article is about exaggeration. In essence it was going over the movement and how the standard really calls for it. A lot of the poodles in the ring have enormous reach and drive, which is very flashy. On the down and back, though, some will sidewind orf be anything but straight. A good handler can hide it and you can't see it on the side view. Some judges feel the side view is all that matters when they judge poodles. She has diagrams showing where the legs optimally should be (not way off the ground when moving) and how much reach and drive they should have and compared it to some other breeds with proper shoulder structure. The comment was made that people breed to what wins. Maybe people should breed towards the standard, but that judges reward exaggeration, so that's what a lot of what is bred. 

On the temperament article they talk about how a poodle is supposed to have a quiet dignity about them and how they are supposed to be very smart. Not counting the puppies, who are almost always silly, some are not calm and dignified. I want a super smart dog. That's why I like poodles. 

I like a more moderate poodle, which makes me think I am old fashioned.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I read the conformation article. I like a stylish poodle, but I do prefer a more moderate poodle to an exaggerated poodle. I think it's simply a matter of taste. It's easy to be swooned by the exaggerated rears, but a poodle should be a sound dog. Doesn't mean they have to be boring, though. I still like some sparkle - but basic structure should not be forgotten. Exaggerated is beautiful to look at, but it does come with the movement faults mentioned in the article.

That is why I have bred a fancy dog to a correct/moderate dog. They are very different yet complementary in type.

I agree with what the article is saying, which is that what is flashy and wins in the ring is not always what is correct. It really rung true for me about your breeding pick not necessarily being the same as your show pick. I partially agree, though I believe that correct can win too. Some judges reward correct more than others, and it also is different regionally. Also, many all breed judges will prefer the moderate type while some of the poodle specialty judges may tend to have a bias toward flashy.

I know recently I was talking with a breeder/mentor about my upcoming litter. Was discussing having her help me choose my pick bitch vs. having a handler help me. She mentioned that I'd likely get very different results with the handler preferring more of the fancy type.

I think the article is a reminder of what our breed standard actually calls for in the face of the current fashion in poodles - which is exaggeration - particularly in angulation.


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

I like my boy but I'm biased. lol
I will say that as puppies his brother had flashier movement. I had to giggle about the temperament testing where it said if a dog picks up what is thrown and doesn't bring it back but runs off they are too independent. Racer did that with a duck at a hunt instinct test. Saw an opportunity, snatched it off the ground & tried to leave.  That's my boy lol. I do agility though & I like a dog that can think for themselves even though that is a double edged sword.

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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I agree with so much of what you say, CM. I like sparkle, too. I don't want to watch a Saint Bernard lumbering in the poodle ring. Poodles should be sparkly, and light and bouncy - they should float effortlessly when they move - but I don't think they should have so much drive that they look like a locomotive bearing down on you.  I also believe a lot of their sparkle is in the eyes. You can see a smart dog in the eyes. I liked how she said to breed to correct, not go too far in the opposite direction. 

I think it is going to be uber fun to see who you choose in your litter.  You have been doing this long enough that you are more than capable of choosing your own puppy. Choose what you want to work towards because everyone is going to have their own opinion. You will live with her when the show days are over.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

I've only shamefully gazed at the NOLA Standards ads and have not managed to read the articles! :rockon:


Heh - I'm as bad as some men who like to "only read the articles"....

I WILL read the articles, and get back to you!


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks, NOLA! I'm interested in your opinion.You're like my sister in law reading Vogue magazine; it's all about the ads. 

...and, your ads were wonderful! I love looking at all the poodles and choosing the ones I like. After doing that for a while, I decided I like some leg, but I like balanced. I also like some substance, but not too much. The variety in the standard poodles is amazing to me. Some look like men on stilts. Some look like weight lifters. And some, just like the bear with the porridge, are juuuust right. That's when I decided I like moderate ... with a bit of flare. LOL


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I only quickly opened it to look at NOLA's ads too (which were fabulous!) and have not had a minute to look at another thing. Will be interesting to sit down and have a read.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I look forward to seeing what you two think.


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