# mini poodle with severe skin isses, HELP!



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

Hello,
I came across this forum while continuing research to help our miniature poodle severe skin issues. I am wondering if she has a severe form of SA and I would appreciate your thoughts and experience.

We rescued this dear girl 2 years ago this past Oct. We were told at the time that she had allergies but that she would just need a pill a day and be fine. Obviously they downplayed the problems significantly. It seemed she was on heavy steroids to grow enough hair to find a home after being abandoned at a vet. The vets we saw after getting her were certainly not willing to keep her on this dose of the 'pill a day' indefinitely..in fact they wanted her off of it and would give us lower dose medications that just did not work at all.

She is a sweet dog and I can tell you I have tried everything I can imagine to try to fix her up. She has severe itching, red skin, scaling, hair loss, ear infections, etc. I have been able to control the ear infections with Zymox with htc. She is allergic to corn, beef and chicken from what I could figure out with certainty...I suspect also dust and the like. Just about anything increases the itching.

She has had times when things improved and her hair looked decent, and other times where it is just awful. I tried boots and coats (esp when her coat was thin and she was cold), and to protect areas she had self-injured, only to find that she would scratch twice as hard instead. Immediately upon removing either, she would tear her skin open and bleed (due to being used to scratching so hard with them on).

I have found 2 dog foods that she can tolerate without worse issues after much trial and error and after doing many months of elimination diets. She gets flax, salmon oil in her food, and melatonin at night (to help her sleep with less itching/anxiety and in hopes of encouraging hair growth). I put coconut oil on her skin (especially bald areas) to help hydrate and reduce damage from scratching. I am also trying the oil baths already since it seems to help some with SA.

I took her to the beach once and she tore her skin open after because it made her so itchy. She basically can go out in our very small porch area and that's it because everything makes it worse. She hates the cold and wet for obvious reasons.

I saw the university article on SA and the picture at the end of it of the severely affected poodle looks so much like her right now it brought tears to my eyes. She is bald around her eyes, chin, under her ears, chest, elbows, feet, entire belly, genital area all the way except the very tip of her tail. I am at my wits' end and she is miserable. One thing that seemed similar to the info I found on SA was the mention that the itching was along the hairlines...that is definitely the case with her. On her very bald areas she doesn't itch as much anymore. She is not spayed because her skin won't stabilise enough.

She doesn't play at all. She is content when she eats and when she can sleep. Her goal in life seems to be to find a warm bed wherever she is. I am wondering what quality of life this is for her but she is a very sweet dog and it seems such a shame (and so wrong) to end her life prematurely and I am hesitant. I was told 2 years ago that she was 3-4 years old (so she'd be 5-6 now if that is true) but she does have grey hair around her eyes/muzzle when it does grow in a little.

No vet seemed to even consider this as a cause of her suffering but this girl has obviously had issues for a very long time. Can anyone offer an opinion? Is it cruel to keep trying or am I doing the right thing? I cannot afford $1000's more in vet bills and I feel sick about this as it seems there is no real cure for SA if that is the cause of it all.

Thank you to anyone and everyone who responds and shares their thoughts!


----------



## poo lover (Nov 7, 2012)

I don't Know if it help but my dog has bad alergies to a host of things and after many foods and now two vets and the new vet is a holistic vet and has asked me to put him on Canine Caviar diet and so far he has stopped vomiting and itching and he has almost stopped shaking his head . So it might be worth a try. good luck know how fustrating it is as we rescued Kruz too with a host of health and social problems but he is so worth it..


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

Thanks so much for your reply and words of encouragement! Unfortunately that food isnt an option for us as we are in Canada.


----------



## poo lover (Nov 7, 2012)

so am I global pets is caring it


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I would not let her continue if I could not get it fixed. I would not let her live 7 or so more years suffering.

Have you tried a "raw" diet? I have read over and over that a raw diet has worked wonders. I would try it . I don't know of anything else that you haven't already tried. 

So sorry, it is such a sad thing ... hugs.


----------



## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

I would first have her tested for SA for confirmation that is what you are dealing with. If it is, I believe there are SA discussion groups that may offer suggestions that assist with the symptoms we are unaware of. If it is allergies to something, I wonder if there is a specialist who could assist to get it under control. I admire you for sticking in there and working on a solution. Hope you find a remedy soon.


----------



## Abbe gails Mom (Nov 8, 2012)

No, its not cruel to keep trying to help something you love! Could she have a vitamin def.?Omega-3 ? may try boiling her food ( hambugger ) to get the fat out, cool it, mix in sweet pato. little mixed vegies out of a can, so on . If you put her down befor you have tried everthing you know to do for her , you will wonder about it, it will help you to know that you did everthing you could if that time ever comes. Praying for you.


----------



## Abbe gails Mom (Nov 8, 2012)

thought of some other things you might try. Add fatty acids, get them from vet, health food store, that takes 6 weeks to help, antihistamine ( benadryl ) check with vet on dosage. could be hormonal, thyroid, mange mites, dermatitis . You might try giving her a oatmeal bath with aveeno added to the water, let her soak in it for 10 min. GOOD LUCK!


----------



## Eddiepoo (Aug 18, 2012)

Have you tried an holistic vet? 
There is a good website by Christopher Day (alternativevet.org)who has a surgery in the UK. He talks about skin problems on there. I truly hope your dog recovers... Sending hugs


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*memechose*: It's heartbreaking to read what you and your mpoo girl are going through! I'm going to contact some mpoo breeders I know to see if they'll weigh in. The Thanksgiving holiday has thrown schedules off here so it may take me a few days, but I will send you a Private Message the moment I hear anything that may be of help. Meanwhile, I wish you continued strength for your efforts to keep your little girl as comfortable as possible. The only bright spot in this is your incredible devotion to her, I know she feels that. I hope there is a way to get her more relief!


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

poo lover said:


> so am I global pets is caring it


Unfortunately global pets is in ON and I am on the west coast. I haven't had luck so far finding it here. Do you happen to know the ingredients?


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> I would not let her continue if I could not get it fixed. I would not let her live 7 or so more years suffering.
> 
> Have you tried a "raw" diet? I have read over and over that a raw diet has worked wonders. I would try it . I don't know of anything else that you haven't already tried.
> 
> So sorry, it is such a sad thing ... hugs.


 Thanks for giving me your honest opinion. I do appreciate it even if it isn't the answer we always hope for. 

I did do Pitcairn's 'raw' homemade diet for a good portion of her first year with us. It is not grain free, however. Unfortunately while she liked it, it did not solve her problems and she had immense trouble keeping weight on. I realise that there are more basic raw diets but I have concerns/reservations that I suppose aren't uncommon, but I would appreciate your input on them: the primary concerns are I am pregnant and have small children, which is a concern for things like e.coli/salmonella...but also she will not eat bones at all, nor does she chew her food. She swallows it whole and I am worried she would choke because she will often choke even on kibble. Finances are unfortunately a concern as well at the moment.


----------



## poo lover (Nov 7, 2012)

memechose said:


> Unfortunately global pets is in ON and I am on the west coast. I haven't had luck so far finding it here. Do you happen to know the ingredients?


they have a web site Canine Caviar bosley's is part of Global 
Kruz would not touch any of the kibbles the vet gave me this food he is begging for good luck (krus has totally stop itching and he's gas is gone ,eyes not running)


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

murphys said:


> I would first have her tested for SA for confirmation that is what you are dealing with. If it is, I believe there are SA discussion groups that may offer suggestions that assist with the symptoms we are unaware of. If it is allergies to something, I wonder if there is a specialist who could assist to get it under control. I admire you for sticking in there and working on a solution. Hope you find a remedy soon.


That is good advice...does anyone know the approximate cost of this test? I am in Canada if that makes a difference. Unfortunately we have recently fallen into hard times and are struggling to make ends meet. There's no way I can spend the 1000's it would take to hire a specialist at this point. She lived with a vet when she was abandoned for many months and it wasn't fixed even that point other than the steroids. I feel terrible to have to put a monetary limit on what we can do but we just don't have it to spend right now. Cost of living here has increased so much where we are that we are now considered below poverty. It is really discouraging but I am also certain that if we tried to rehome her she'd be likely to be put down and that feels even worse. She didn't do anything to deserve her lot in life, that's for sure!! We had no idea the extent of her problems but have done the very best we can.

I can say that she had improvement and hair growth from an herbal cream with essential oils last year, but it too was temporary and she started reacting to the cream so I had to stop it. She has been on olive leaf without success. We put grapefruit seed extract in her water and use selsun blue to aid in the treatment/prevention of excess yeast (this does help to some extent). She does not have any parasites/worms nor fleas whatsoever. We have tried benadryl and the like but it made her worse (she reacted to the corn filler in it with one, and was so drowsy she scratched herself to bleeding without even caring). 

She has had essential fatty acids and reacts to many of the pre-made formulas due to fillers I suspect. So we give them to her with straight flax meal in her dinners and fish oil and/or anchovies. All of the things we do help to the extent that she doesn't mutilate herself to bleeding anymore (we have come home to her blood all over our couch at one point - mostly elbow/chest area and ears). It's a strange way to judge things but as good as we've been able to manage with her off the steroids.

I have studied homeopathy for many years but she was on the steroids so long that it has not been possible to find a cure in that regard. As I mentioned we have also tried herbals and had mixed/limited success. The Olive leaf made her worse. She was on ivermectin for a time to assure no mites (sarcoptic or demodex) without improvement/change.

I keep her hair short because the airflow helps and her scratching rapidly causes mats. This time of year is tough for her and we have trouble with her going in the house at times because she dreads the cold/wet. I may need to try her sweater for just outside to see if that remedies things and remove immediately upon coming inside (can't leave it on or she'll tear her skin). I wish I were rich and could just throw more money at it but alas we are far from it, especially right now due to sudden changes at hubby's work that have left us struggling.

Thanks to all who have weighed in. I hope the further details will help!


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

poo lover said:


> they have a web site Canine Caviar bosley's is part of Global
> Kruz would not touch any of the kibbles the vet gave me this food he is begging for good luck (krus has totally stop itching and he's gas is gone ,eyes not running)


Oh ok I didn't realise that and will check again at Bosley's.


----------



## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

I am so sorry that you have so much on your plate at the moment, I wished that I could help you. I do know a bit about SA and can share that with you. My 12.5 yr old white standard poodle has had it for many years now, but I am able to keep it under control with a series of oil bath/soaks, followed by multiple washes with Dawn detergent. She has a pretty severe case but I can keep on top of it with those oil treatments and it hasn't gotten worse during the years..
Missy doesn't have any of the painful symptoms of your dog - the SA does not cause her any discomfort at all- she just looks 'moth eaten' because the hair falls out due to SA and grows back with a different texture, and is much more sparse- the shafts of her hair have silvery scales that you could really feel, there's severe dandruff, there's lots of scaling and thickening of the skin. The most severely affected parts of her body show a rust color to the fur...that's how I know that the scaling is starting again.If left untreated, pustules develop which could become infected,( but that has not happened to her) also she always has a slight rancid odor now.
She is perfectly comfortable though, and never scratches herself at all, unlike your poor baby.
Maybe yourlittle dog does not have SA?


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*memechose*: Just sent you a PM relating suggestions I received from a poodle breeder and groomer. If you find anything of merit, perhaps you can share it on the forum. I continue to hope_ something _helps!


----------



## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Memechose*

Hi Memechose;

I am so sorry that you have to go through this. I hesitate to write, because so many people have given you such thoughtful, insightful posts. But I really wanted to give you another possibility, that worked beautifully for my Louie:

My Louie used to have itching problems until my vet recommended "ResiCORT" leave-on lotion. I bought it on Amazon:

Amazon.com: ResiCORT Leave-On Conditioner (16oz): Pet Supplies

Amazon.com: ResiCORT Leave-On Conditioner (16oz): Pet Supplies 
Wow---what a help! Louie does not itch any longer. After a bath, you rub in the lotion and leave it on. You have to use quite a bit the very first application, but after that, you use less and less of the product.

Memechose, ResiCORT may not be the solution to the problem, but it may, [hopefully] provide some relief!

HerdingStdPoodle


----------



## Petey's Mom (Nov 27, 2012)

An antifungal shampoo could help, I have read different places where Oatmeal can intensify the problem as well. Hope you find your Baby some good help.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The biopsy for SA is around $100 (depends who you go to- go to someone who does them frequently) and $60 to send it to the lab. At least, that's what I paid.

Here's the instructions in case your vet hasn't done them:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Sebaceous Adenitis


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

These suggestions were offered to me by a poodle breeder/groomer who answered my plea for help on the OP's behalf. I sent them to her, but it occurs to me others might benefit or wish to comment.

"....'grain free,' I would do that for this Mini. I would also give her about two months worth of Twinlab Yeast Fighters which is something that _[* name deleted*]_ recommended after a long drawn out skin issue with one of her dogs. 

It's possible it's color linked alopecia, rather than SA, just because it's usually a SP [Standard Poodle] thing, but other breeds get SA as well. Another reason is leg hair, which SPs usually still have, and I think it sounds like the Mini might also have missing leg hair. Something I will be trying, as soon as it gets here is Denamarin. That is because of a discussion on the Liver list about itchy dogs who improved post shunt surgery, so I'm going to give toning up her liver a try.

Bad skin also begets staph infection. I would suggest using Sebolux (Virbac mfg, available via Amazon.com). I saw it work a miracle on an ancient Lhasa whose skin was actually sticky and stunk to high heaven ... her terrible skin went from thick, black, sticky and stinky to so soft the hair grew back and I could roll her skin between my fingers it was so soft.

SA will itch IF they get a staph infection. It's the bad skin/staph that itches or hurts, not the dead sebaceous glands per se.

I would bathe her in Sebolux 2x/week until she sees improvement."


----------



## memechose (Nov 21, 2012)

Wow, I just wanted to post and thank each and every one of you for your helpful and thoughtful posts, both here and by private message! I haven't been able to respond to every one individually but I want to make sure you know it means a lot to me (and my little gal)! 

You have given me a lot to try and think about so I will start making changes again, one by one, to see what helps, and of course look further into the SA punch tests. I appreciate the encouragement to keep trying. She's such a sweet dog that deserves a contented life!


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

blasted computer!! Arrgh I typed a pretty long response and it went away cause I took too long typing it *sigh*. Forgive me, I'll have to give you the cliff notes version lol.

Have you had her tested for allergies? There is a method where they shave an area, prick the skin with many possible allergens to see which flare and ergo which she is allergic to. And you can do like me and have her blood sent off to be tested. Either way they send you vials of allergenic extract serum of differing concentration with a schedule to follow to help desensitize the body.

Have you tried chlorhexidine shampoo, sugar scrubs, mud treatments, or aloe? I use all for my girl with allergies that has skin issues that flare up now and then. Animal aloe did a really good job of treating the staph infection she acquired which makes her itch like crazy.


----------



## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

I have seen a few horrible cases of SA in Poodles, but more commonly Akitas. Unfortunately, food changes don't make a significant difference. Feeding a diet high in fat/oils is better than something higher in carbs. 

Raw diets are actually not recommended by most specialists with dogs dealing with SA, as the body is compromised any natural bacterias which most dogs can tolerate, may not be tolerable by these dogs. Home cooked food is a better option for these ones, or commercial kibbles that suit your dogs dietary requirements. Adding fish oil can help too.


What medication has your pup been on? Typically, we treat SA in two ways medically - cyclosporine, or prednisone. There is also an important shampoo/oil bath that in combination with medical therapy is very helpful.

If you can, seek out a consult with a boarded dermatologist. The consult fees arent as expensive as you think (probably $150-200), and they can give you the names/dosages of drugs that you can get through them or your regular vet, plus the names/directions of use for shampoos and oil soaks. 

I would think if you can invest $5-600 into this dog (specialist consult, meds, bathing, bloodwork), you will be able to significantly improve her quality of life, or at least give yourself peace of mind that you have done everything possible to give her a chance.

Sounds like she has been a very lucky dog to have found you


----------



## My babies (Aug 14, 2012)

Please don't give up on her. I hope you find something soon to help her.


----------

