# Liver points and amber/green eyes? Why don't we see them outside of brown and apricot poodles and should we?



## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

It may just come down to the people who set the standard not liking the combination. Beautiful boy though, I believe there's a forum member with a dog with similar coloration. Not sure whether they're active though. After a while all but the most active members start to run together in my head.


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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

Misteline said:


> It may just come down to the people who set the standard not liking the combination. Beautiful boy though, I believe there's a forum member with a dog with similar coloration. Not sure whether they're active though. After a while all but the most active members start to run together in my head.


It's unfortunate that it's likely due to it just not being sought after at the time, it seems such a shame to exclude a perfectly fine trait from the gene pool. Although, in recent years there's been a resurgence of parti-coloured poodles which were excluded due to similar reasoning and red poodles are supposedly rather recent as well. So who knows, if we get lucky maybe the inclusion of liver points to other coats aside from apricot or brown, in addition to the lighter eye colour could be seen further down the track.

I did see a forum member with a very cute standard puppy with this colouration but they haven't been active since 2011 sadly.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is a thread from a few months ago that touches on the origin of breed standards. If you read thru it all and follow the links in the Poodle History Project references you'll see how they've changed, if not exactly why. Guessing, I'd say the reasons are partly fashion or partly actual health related problems, either from outside, like merle, or lines that had additional straying from the standard.

(9) Why do poodle standards specify solid colors? | Poodle Forum

ETA The links to the PHP in the Internet Archive don't seem to be working in that thread - testing this link to PHP
and this to show dogs and this to breed standards history
and this written in 1891 by R.Furness about poodles during the early days of breed standards being developed


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm not bothered about it being a desireable thing or not. Winnie has amber eyes (sometimes you can see little green flecks) and I think her eyes are beautiful. It's the thing most people comment on when they see her.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

First two dogs are Silver beige (in the brown spectrum and born brown) and amber eyes liver points are perferred. A lot of people confuse them with a light apricot or cream. Silver beige is stunning imho


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

That dog does indeed look like a silver beige, not a cream. From what I understand, silver beige is not permitted in the FCI standard. A quote from the FCI standard:
_Colour: Solid colour: black, white, brown, grey, fawn.
Brown should be deep, rather dark, uniform and warm. Beige and its paler derivatives are not admitted. Grey must be uniform, deep, neither blackish nor whitish. Fawn must be uniform. Can go from pale fawn to red fawn or even be orange fawn (apricot)._

It is permitted (as cafe au lait) in the AKC standard:
_Color: The coat is an even and solid color at the skin. In blues, grays, silvers, browns, cafe-au- laits, apricots and creams the coat may show varying shades of the same color. This is frequently present in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the ruff. While clear colors are definitely preferred, such natural variation in the shading of the coat is not to be considered a fault. Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog. Parti-colored dogs shall be disqualified. The coat of a parti-colored dog is not an even solid color at the skin but is of two or more colors._

As to why either standard prefers certain colors over others, I assume it was mostly the fashion of the times. Merle and blue eyes, of course, would indicate a cross breeding had occurred.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

What does "fawn" refer to in the FCI standard? In most breeds it's genetic sable and often has a dark mask, but I doubt that is what they are referring to here.

Looking at that string of pictures, only one looks red/apricot to me, the rest look to be on the brown spectrum (brown, cafe, silver beige, and I think one might be a brown sable).
I thought I remembered hearing that black points are less susceptible to sunburn, and also that for red that the black is preferred so you can see their expression more. Liver points on red kind of blend in, and presumably they would want to keep the whole red spectrum consistent.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Starvt said:


> What does "fawn" refer to in the FCI standard? In most breeds it's genetic sable and often has a dark mask, but I doubt that is what they are referring to here.
> 
> Looking at that string of pictures, only one looks red/apricot to me, the rest look to be on the brown spectrum (brown, cafe, silver beige, and I think one might be a brown sable).
> I thought I remembered hearing that black points are less susceptible to sunburn, and also that for red that the black is preferred so you can see their expression more. Liver points on red kind of blend in, and presumably they would want to keep the whole red spectrum consistent.


Fawn is red and apricot


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I don't know the official reason. For reasons I can not explain, I prefer black noses, eye rims, etc. Have not a clue why. I think that the first dog in your photos is a beautiful dog. I remember back when I was a kid breeders speaking about pigmentation. It seemed to be the consensus back then that when color/pigmentation fades the line is weakening (meaning they didn't have enough of the original ingredients to maintain the lines for future generations). They saw it as weakness. This doesn't mean that occasionally a puppy isn't born with off-color pigment. I don't know at this point in breeding how much is: 1) what people like vs 2) actual practical reason for the coloration being a certain way. It is a puzzle I've been puzzling in my head for 15+ years now.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Is it even possible to have a black dog with a brown nose? 
I thought that it was a bb/BB thing (or whatever the gene controlling for black coat vs brown coat is). 

Keep in mind the following article doesn't use the (weird!) Poodle colour terms. 








Color On the Nose


As a rule, you can tell a dog’s actual color by his or her nose. Genetically speaking, black dogs have black noses, and red dogs have liver colored noses as the liver gene is recessive, and it must have the genotype bb in order to be superficially present. Conversely, it’s genetically impossible...




nationalpurebreddogday.com


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> I don't know the official reason. For reasons I can not explain, I prefer black noses, eye rims, etc. Have not a clue why. I think that the first dog in your photos is a beautiful dog. I remember back when I was a kid breeders speaking about pigmentation. It seemed to be the consensus back then that when color/pigmentation fades the line is weakening (meaning they didn't have enough of the original ingredients to maintain the lines for future generations). They saw it as weakness. This doesn't mean that occasionally a puppy isn't born with off-color pigment. I don't know at this point in breeding how much is: 1) what people like vs 2) actual practical reason for the coloration being a certain way. It is a puzzle I've been puzzling in my head for 15+ years now.


Hmmm. they may have looked at these pale skinned light eyed dogs early on and thought "this looks too much like albinism, better eliminate it." The question is how did they respond to it. Did this concern lead to more or less inbreeding? If they knew enough about albinism to consider inbreeding as a possible cause would we have our current bottlenecks?

I wonder if in this case the "fading means the line is weakening" equaled out to "clearly isn't inbred enough" as a conclusion. If they considered visible evidence of genetic diversity as negative then stands to reason they'd turn to good old inbreeding to solve that problem. Just like they turned to good old inbreeding to maintain the other things they liked. Genetic diversity in dogs seems to be only being seriously pursued relatively recently, and show breeding trends older so the standards take even longer to change. We've known for ages too much inbreeding leads to unpleasant results, but how much is too much? And the classes that originally set the standards for show dogs were a little too comfortable with good old inbreeding themselves. If breeders traditionally weren't concerned enough about the genetic disorders that can result from too much inbreeding they would over prioritize consistency right into the current genetic bottle necks most non-working lines and breeds are struggling with. People tend to fear what they don't understand, and most of the time that means either the unexpected or the new. Sometimes doubling back and causing the very issue they were trying to avoid...


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Light colored eyes are a fault in most breeds. I think the reason for that is because wolves have light eyes, so dog breeders did not want their dogs to look like wolves. Another reason, as was mentioned above, is that many people believe that light colored eyes are "weaker" than dark eyes.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Misteline said:


> Hmmm. they may have looked at these pale skinned light eyed dogs early on and thought "this looks too much like albinism, better eliminate it." The question is how did they respond to it. Did this concern lead to more or less inbreeding? If they knew enough about albinism to consider inbreeding as a possible cause would we have our current bottlenecks?
> 
> I wonder if in this case the "fading means the line is weakening" equaled out to "clearly isn't inbred enough" as a conclusion. If they considered visible evidence of genetic diversity as negative then stands to reason they'd turn to good old inbreeding to solve that problem. Just like they turned to good old inbreeding to maintain the other things they liked. Genetic diversity in dogs seems to be only being seriously pursued relatively recently, and show breeding trends older so the standards take even longer to change. We've known for ages too much inbreeding leads to unpleasant results, but how much is too much? And the classes that originally set the standards for show dogs were a little too comfortable with good old inbreeding themselves. If breeders traditionally weren't concerned enough about the genetic disorders that can result from too much inbreeding they would over prioritize consistency right into the current genetic bottle necks most non-working lines and breeds are struggling with. People tend to fear what they don't understand, and most of the time that means either the unexpected or the new. Sometimes doubling back and causing the very issue they were trying to avoid...



I can say with quite a bit of certainty the folks I'm referring to didn't do much in the way of inbreeding or linebreeding for that matter. I can't speak for the masses however as I know far too much line/inbreeding was done by people who shouldn't or who shouldn't have turned those offspring loose. I have been perturbed for most of my life with dog breeders in general because when making up the breed standards there should be a WHY. If the why is known then the next generation of breeders can make informed decisions. If the only color allowed in Giant Schnauzer is black & salt/pepper & the why is for valid reasons, cool, great... now I know as a breeder NOT to risk a dog of a slight shade difference into the program. However, if the why is because the hoity-toities of old didn't like the black & tan/rust Giant (yes there were other colors back in the day & they were gorgeous) then that's not a valid reason, that's a matter of taste & their fad-preferences shouldn't shape an entire breed. (BTW, I am not a Giant Schnauzer breeder but it's the example that came to mind first). Parti Poodles are another one that come to mind but as I have a hot button over the particolored Poodles, we probably don't want me to get started on how they're treated.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> I can say with quite a bit of certainty the folks I'm referring to didn't do much in the way of inbreeding or linebreeding for that matter. I can't speak for the masses however as I know far too much line/inbreeding was done by people who shouldn't or who shouldn't have turned those offspring loose. I have been perturbed for most of my life with dog breeders in general because when making up the breed standards there should be a WHY. If the why is known then the next generation of breeders can make informed decisions. If the only color allowed in Giant Schnauzer is black & salt/pepper & the why is for valid reasons, cool, great... now I know as a breeder NOT to risk a dog of a slight shade difference into the program. However, if the why is because the hoity-toities of old didn't like the black & tan/rust Giant (yes there were other colors back in the day & they were gorgeous) then that's not a valid reason, that's a matter of taste & their fad-preferences shouldn't shape an entire breed. (BTW, I am not a Giant Schnauzer breeder but it's the example that came to mind first). Parti Poodles are another one that come to mind but as I have a hot button over the particolored Poodles, we probably don't want me to get started on how they're treated.


That's good to hear about the people you were thinking of. I do feel the need to clarify that I didn't intend to imply the specific breeders you were familiar with had the thought process I was musing on, the standards were set likely well before they were on the horizon. The particular wording about fading indicating weakening lines just rang out to me as a sequence of words that burrows in the head and as a result lives a long long life. Just vague enough that those who hear it later could ascribe any sort of meaning to it, but a firm enough call to action that you would want to do something about it.

I definitely agree with you that the personal preferences or limitations of particular influential people shouldn't be the be all end all of breeds. Though it's a fine line to walk when it comes to how to differentiate one breed from the other for show purposes. Seems like without all those fussy rules it becomes harder and harder to differentiate one companion breed from another once you define any obvious health related traits. It's not like the working breeds who should be built for purpose at least. But when it comes to colors that genuinely do crop up naturally in a breed even after all the engineering that has been done, why not let them into the fold if they aren't tied to a specific problem? If a multicolored dog is harder to groom that sounds like the business of the person showing it. (Not trying to set you off, I think we probably agree on the plight of partis.)

Forgive me I'm chasing bunnies again. In the specific case of light eyes and liver skin, if they do sunburn more easily it may be an actual detriment as time goes on given the changes we've seen in climate. Not that it does any good to justify past decisions with more recent circumstances.


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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

WinnieThePoodle said:


> I'm not bothered about it being a desireable thing or not. Winnie has amber eyes (sometimes you can see little green flecks) and I think her eyes are beautiful. It's the thing most people comment on when they see her.
> 
> View attachment 485219
> 
> View attachment 485220


I think it's amazing that poodles have so much diversity when it comes to patterning and colour, 'desirable' traits or not. I've only recently started looking into coat genetics and types, and am finding so many interesting discussions and resources on here. 

Winnie is certainly a gorgeous pup and her eyes have so much depth to them, still traditional eyes or not there's no mistaking that poodle glint of mischief in them


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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

twyla said:


> First two dogs are Silver beige (in the brown spectrum and born brown) and amber eyes liver points are perferred. A lot of people confuse them with a light apricot or cream. Silver beige is stunning imho


Oh wow, I had no idea silver beige could lighten to this warmer colour, I'd always thought of it as a cooler toned silvery, light brown.


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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

Starvt said:


> What does "fawn" refer to in the FCI standard? In most breeds it's genetic sable and often has a dark mask, but I doubt that is what they are referring to here.
> 
> Looking at that string of pictures, only one looks red/apricot to me, the rest look to be on the brown spectrum (brown, cafe, silver beige, and I think one might be a brown sable).
> I thought I remembered hearing that black points are less susceptible to sunburn, and also that for red that the black is preferred so you can see their expression more. Liver points on red kind of blend in, and presumably they would want to keep the whole red spectrum consistent.


I have heard that the dark pigmentation of the eye rims in dogs with black points gives the dog additional protection from the sun so that is an added benefit of black points that makes sense as to why it'd be a desirable trait from a health perspective. However, I'd imagine that unless you have the very light pink points that you'd see in an albino dog the difference between a liver eye rim and a black eye rim in terms of protection wouldn't be all that significant, or at least not enough to show an obvious disadvantage.

it does make sense to prefer/seek out a red poodle with darker points as the lighter points can end up looking very uniform with the coat and make it hard to pick out their expression.


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## _poodlepaws_ (Apr 7, 2021)

dogsavvy said:


> I don't know the official reason. For reasons I can not explain, I prefer black noses, eye rims, etc. Have not a clue why. I think that the first dog in your photos is a beautiful dog. I remember back when I was a kid breeders speaking about pigmentation. It seemed to be the consensus back then that when color/pigmentation fades the line is weakening (meaning they didn't have enough of the original ingredients to maintain the lines for future generations). They saw it as weakness. This doesn't mean that occasionally a puppy isn't born with off-color pigment. I don't know at this point in breeding how much is: 1) what people like vs 2) actual practical reason for the coloration being a certain way. It is a puzzle I've been puzzling in my head for 15+ years now.


That's really interesting, I hadn't thought of it being associated with weakness, it reminds me of how white german shepherds used to be culled as they were mistaken as a sign of inferiority and/or a genetic fault in the breed when in reality it was a naturally occurring coat colour that wasn't linked to poor health. Although, I am sure there were some cases where the white coat was due to albinism.

I do think black points are gorgeous too, I think it'd be nice if the breed standard was more inclusive of the liver points and lighter eyes as it seems a shame to exclude them almost entirely, It's likely many would be worried that the dark points would be 'lost' in the creams, apricots, and reds. Whilst that is a legitimate concern I do think it'd be similar to how it already is with certain breeders dedicated to preserving a specific color or pattern and do so by only breeding dogs who will improve on/strengthen those traits. 

From looking around It seems dark points being preferred or the only type of point permitted is a fairly common theme within breed standards. I think the darker points do give the dogs a softer and less intense look in a way as the yellow/amber eyes are intense in appearance and expression which may have been more appealing simply to set them apart from 'wild'/stray dogs or wolves.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

my first poodle silver beige Baby


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

My little guy Jeffrey is a silver beige and he has what I would call hazel/green eyes. His half sister (same mother) Lucy is a cream with hazel/green eyes. Their mother, Lyza, is a cafe au lait with hazel/green eyes. It's really interesting to see all three dogs with the same eye color. All three have liver points. I love Lucy and Jeffrey's liver noses.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

The base genetic color for poodles is either black or brown. The base color can easily be determined by the nose and eye rim color - black or brown. All the other colors are modifiers of the base color. There are some great color charts out on the internet.


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## Spooo! (12 mo ago)




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## Spooo! (12 mo ago)

Meet Louie, he's nearly 6 months old and the prettiest boy. Green/Amber eyes.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

You don't see often see light eyes because the standard of the breed states that the eyes should be "very dark, oval in shape, and set far enough apart and positioned to create an alert intelligent expression. Major fault: eyes round, protruding, large or very light." 

So for many years, reputable breeders have done their best to ensure those characteristics. 

Regarding liver points, the standard states that brown and cafe-au-lait poodles have liver-colored points but all other colors must have black points. An exception is made for apricots - black points are strongly preferred but liver points are permitted. Again, reputable breeders do their best to produce dogs that meet the breed standard.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Spooo! said:


> Meet Louie, he's nearly 6 months old and the prettiest boy. Green/Amber eyes.


What a darling! Head over to Member Introductions and say hello.


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## Millie_the_standard (8 mo ago)

_poodlepaws_ said:


> It's unfortunate that it's likely due to it just not being sought after at the time, it seems such a shame to exclude a perfectly fine trait from the gene pool. Although, in recent years there's been a resurgence of parti-coloured poodles which were excluded due to similar reasoning and red poodles are supposedly rather recent as well. So who knows, if we get lucky maybe the inclusion of liver points to other coats aside from apricot or brown, in addition to the lighter eye colour could be seen further down the track.
> 
> I did see a forum member with a very cute standard





_poodlepaws_ said:


> It's unfortunate that it's likely due to it just not being sought after at the time, it seems such a shame to exclude a perfectly fine trait from the gene pool. Although, in recent years there's been a resurgence of parti-coloured poodles which were excluded due to similar reasoning and red poodles are supposedly rather recent as well. So who knows, if we get lucky maybe the inclusion of liver points to other coats aside from apricot or brown, in addition to the lighter eye colour could be seen further down the track.
> 
> I did see a forum member with a very cute standard puppy with this colouration but they haven't been active since 2011 sadly.




My 8 month old Standard has these crazy eyes...







I love them!!


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