# Are Cow Hocks going to mean hip problems if this dog is bred?



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

If I understand it correctly, "AKC Registered" doesn't mean anything beyond both parents are Pedigree'd (Poodles in this case). Is has nothing to do with their health or genetics.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

A slight amount of cow hocking is common in herding breeds, and while it isn't preferred in the show ring, it doesn't have any obvious detrimental effects on hip health, nor does it necessarily indicate unsound hips. It is not desirable because it decreases stability of the leg, though I have heard collie people discuss the benefits of having more side to side traction for bracing. Quick side movement can be helpful for dogs that are dodging cows or facing off sheep. It is hard to tell the degree of cow hocking in this dog by photos of him standing. My poodle does not have cow hocks but will stand with his legs spread in some positions that may make it appear that he does.

All poodles should be bred carefully to best create progeny that will meet the breed standard for structural health whether they be pets, sport dogs, or grace the show ring. If a dog is not bred for show, then I would ask what the purpose of the breeding is. 

No dog is perfect, and breeders always weigh the strengths and weaknesses of a given dog when they decide to breed and when they decide who makes the best pair with with dog. A great dog with a fault may still be a good candidate for breeding if they pass all health testing and if they are paired with a partner that is strong in areas they are weak.

In general, there are fewer reasons to breed a male dog with faults because it is so easy to find a stud that lacks those faults. It is much easier to be choosy and very particular about which stud is the ideal match. So this may affect decisions of whether or not to breed a male vs a female.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

HalleyPoodle said:


> He's not being bred for showing but the breeder wants to breed dogs that won't end up in pain of course.


Breeding isn't a question of producing show dogs vs pet dogs. Ideally, it's about breeding the very best examples of the preferred breed. The reason dogs are "shown" is to prove that they meet the breed blueprint. That includes sound structure, sound temperament, and more. 

I don't have enough experience to determine whether he's cow hocked or not, but he definitely should not be used as a stud dog until someone with experience has evaluated his structure. There's little reason to breed a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard. This may not be just a cosmetic issue. Unsound structure can have an impact. I can't say how or how much. 

Tom is correct to point out that being AKC registered is indicative only of being 100% poodle. If the parents have not had the recommended health testing and passed with good results, and this pup also hasn't been tested, he should not be bred until the testing is done and he has good/clear/normal results. 

Sound health is just good sense. Every breed of dog, even mixes, are subject to health issues, some with severe impact on quality of life. Whatever their reasons for wanting to breed, I'd hope that they'd want to make sure that any dogs produced further down this line (unless they are going to require spay/neuter of all puppies from any breeding) also meet the breed standard and are of sound health and temperament.

There is no reason to breed until, at a minimum, he's proven to meet the health recommendations by the Poodle Club of Canada. Their site is under construction now so the health testing recommendation from the PCC isn't available right now. 

Since the pup's dam and sire are listed as AKC, here's the Poodle Club Of America's recommendations

OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.

Toy Poodle

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA based test from an approved laboratory ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

CHIC numbers generate automatically within 1 to 2 weeks after all the required test results have been registered with the OFA.

For dogs residing outside the US or Canada, owners may submit their country's equivalent health screening results for listing on the OFA website. These requests are reviewed on a case by case basis and fees apply. Once these results have been recorded with the OFA, owners may request CHIC numbers if they've met all the CHIC requirements through regular registrations or international equivalents. These requests are handled on a case by case basis.



Miniature Poodle
OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.



*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA Test*
DNA Based test from an approved laboratory. ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

CHIC numbers generate automatically within 1 to 2 weeks after all the required test results have been registered with the OFA.

For dogs residing outside the US or Canada, owners may submit their country's equivalent health screening results for listing on the OFA website. These requests are reviewed on a case by case basis and fees apply. Once these results have been recorded with the OFA, owners may request CHIC numbers if they've met all the CHIC requirements through regular registrations or international equivalents. These requests are handled on a case by case basis.



Standard Poodle
OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.



*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective (One of the following tests)* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

CHIC numbers generate automatically within 1 to 2 weeks after all the required test results have been registered with the OFA.

For dogs residing outside the US or Canada, owners may submit their country's equivalent health screening results for listing on the OFA website. These requests are reviewed on a case by case basis and fees apply. Once these results have been recorded with the OFA, owners may request CHIC numbers if they've met all the CHIC requirements through regular registrations or international equivalents. These requests are handled on a case by case basis.


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## HalleyPoodle (Jun 6, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> If I understand it correctly, "AKC Registered" doesn't mean anything beyond both parents are Pedigree'd (Poodles in this case). Is has nothing to do with their health or genetics.


Agreed. It really only gives pedigree information so not really helpful.


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## HalleyPoodle (Jun 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Breeding isn't a question of producing show dogs vs pet dogs. Ideally, it's about breeding the very best examples of the preferred breed. The reason dogs are "shown" is to prove that they meet the breed blueprint. That includes sound structure, sound temperament, and more.
> 
> I don't have enough experience to determine whether he's cow hocked or not, but he definitely should not be used as a stud dog until someone with experience has evaluated his structure. There's little reason to breed a dog that doesn't meet the breed standard. This may not be just a cosmetic issue. Unsound structure can have an impact. I can't say how or how much.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for this informed and helpful response. He has passed all his genetic testing but hasn't aged enough to do his OFAs but since his legs looks so cowhocked we were thinking it may not be worth even bothering with the xrays and just not using him but I suppose our eyes aren't the best at determining this and really it's testing that matters. Thanks again!


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## HalleyPoodle (Jun 6, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> A slight amount of cow hocking is common in herding breeds, and while it isn't preferred in the show ring, it doesn't have any obvious detrimental effects on hip health, nor does it necessarily indicate unsound hips. It is not desirable because it decreases stability of the leg, though I have heard collie people discuss the benefits of having more side to side traction for bracing. Quick side movement can be helpful for dogs that are dodging cows or facing off sheep. It is hard to tell the degree of cow hocking in this dog by photos of him standing. My poodle does not have cow hocks but will stand with his legs spread in some positions that may make it appear that he does.
> 
> All poodles should be bred carefully to best create progeny that will meet the breed standard for structural health whether they be pets, sport dogs, or grace the show ring. If a dog is not bred for show, then I would ask what the purpose of the breeding is.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for this helpful response!


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Cow hocks are not related to hip displasia but that doesn’t mean that generations down the line won’t have problems due to progressively worse rear/leg angulation. I think the question would be, why do you want to breed him? What about him is worth breeding incorrect structure especially when beautiful studs are a dime a dozen?

Also I would do the x-rays and get OFA prelims, not for breeding butfor the health of the dog in case something does look wrong and needs quick treatment.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Even if his hip testing past, I probably wouldn't be interested in a puppy from a cow hocked poodle. An increased risk of injury and risk of rear weakness isn't something I would wish to risk in a puppy. 

The question to ask would be 'what does this sire bring to the breed that makes him an exceptional candidate to be bred'? Perhaps he has some attribute that makes his genetics vitally important to keep in the breed?

It also looks like he should be checked for luxating patella, which sometimes occurs with a cow hocked dog (I believe your regular vet can assess this in a physical exam). 

Here's a good review that I found.








Cow-Hocked Dogs - Definition, What To Do & FAQs — Breeding Business


Cow hocked dogs are born with a structural fault of the hocks. Find out the health risks associated with severe cow hocks.




breedingbusiness.com


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I am pleased to see so many well thought out comments on breeding. I have been involved with breeding poodles for over 50 years. My requirements for a stud dog are: 1) dog has tested clear of all hereditary disease conditions common to that variety of poodle, 2) dog is "show quality" whether or not he has been shown - he meets the standard of the breed, 3) dog has excellent temperament, 4) dog is athletic whether or not he has participated in athletic competitions. These are all important and not listed in order of importance.


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