# To KIbble or not to Kibble That is the question.



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is an interesting read and is quite accurate on the anatomy issues. I do finally have NutriScan results for all three dogs. I am not sure that I will change to different kibble since I don't think I am going to find something that will work for all of them, but I am seriously thinking I will cook for them myself. I need to do some research and have a chat with the vet.


----------



## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Interesting article. My personal vote is no kibble  I don't feed a BARF style diet though, I do prey model or frankenprey. I have to say, I think the feeding recommendations they have for the BARF diet in that article are a little extreme. I fed 2 meals a day until a year old, then went to one - but I also have giant breeds that are slow to mature. I do one fast day a week. I know some people do the gorge and fast thing and feed 3-4 meals a week, but dang...10-15% of Asaah's body weight is 12-18 lbs. No way am I feeding that big a meal to a bloat-prone breed. Plus overfeeding can cause loose stools - Finn once ate an 8 lb chicken in one meal and had a splosion in his crate! I realize raw isn't an option for everyone, but I feel it is the best diet for a dog, as long as it is done correctly of course.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Interesting article.



lily cd re said:


> That is an interesting read and is quite accurate on the anatomy issues. I do finally have NutriScan results for all three dogs. I am not sure that I will change to different kibble since I don't think I am going to find something that will work for all of them, but I am seriously thinking I will cook for them myself. I need to do some research and have a chat with the vet.


I can't imagine all the work it will be to cook for three large dogs - I find its a ton of work to do for 1 minipoo - and a lot more work than when I did it for a tpoo. I don't know how others manage it.


----------



## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

This subject of what to feed really boggles my mind, and it's been on my mind a lot lately. I feed kibble and home cooked, and would really like to cut the kibble completely, but I'm not confident they would get everything they need. I also feed 3 times a day, my thought has been 3 smaller meals are better than one big meal a day. Soooooo frustrating.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have just invested in a small chest freezer for the garage so that I can bulk buy - same supplier as the food I have been buying locally, so I know more or less what I will be getting, but by buying direct I can get more variety. I feed raw/home cooked to two toy dogs and two cats - a lot of the time involved is in portioning, which is probably greater for tinies than bigger dogs - I chop chicken wings into halves, for example!

But although I prefer to feed my animals this way I am always sceptical of articles on nutrition that do not include references to the original sources. In which countries, for example can labels be used for 5 years regardless of changes of ingredients, or nutritional content vary by 500%? USA? EU? Australia? Qatar, where it seems the seminar was originally given? Where is the evidence to support the theory that a full stomach prevents torsion, which contradicts the more usual advice? It may all be true, or it may be personal opinion - without citations to research that can be evaluated it is impossible to know.


----------



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Interesting replies. I do not propose the article as axiom but I felt it was accurate in much of what it says about a dogs feeding needs. As to this kibble or that kibble it's all a mess of lies and misinformation out there. If you CAN find a good kibble it's a good filler and standby. My own thoughts are that the FDA or it's equivalent should be given powers over pet foods, as they have over human foods.
Eric


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

In the UK animal feeds, including pet food, are overseen by the Food Standards Agency, along with human foodstuffs. Most legislation is EU wide, including labelling requirements, source of ingredients (must all be products or by products of foods produced for humans - no diseased animals, etc), and an analysis of protein, fibre, etc. Meat and vegetable sources may be named or grouped - most cheaper foods will use group descriptions so that they can use the cheapest ingredients available at the time of manufacture, which may be a good reason to look for named meats! Tolerance levels for varying from the stated analysis are also set out, mostly within a few percentage points, but higher levels for additives as long as they do not exceed the maximum permitted level - nowhere near 500% even so. I am sure the rules do get broken, and equally sure that some of the by products used would fill us with horror, but I still think this article wildly overstated the risks. 

I stopped feeding kibble and wet commercial foods when I worked out the cost of the ingredients versus the cost of the food, and reckoned I could be cooking them filet mignon and pheasant breast in aspic for the same price per ounce, plus Sophy's disinclination to eat anything from a bag that had been open more than a week, but I am sure that there are complete foods out there that are safe, nutritious and convenient, just as you have found Eric.


----------



## Knutdanoodle (Aug 4, 2016)

I didn't read the article, but have done a lot of research of the nutritional losses of kibble, along with rate of digestion of kibble vs raw. The thing I can't seem to find is a specific nutritional guide for raw foods for dogs of different breeds, like what proteins or carbs a specific breed may be more sensitive to than another. 
Also what a specific breed may actually need included in their diet vs another breed

I have a sharpei mixed with pit bull that has food sensitivities. I've been weaning her off the pedigree kibble and onto purina proplan with salmon, her farts are less stinky but her coat is getting worse. She is a heavy chewer, so I think she would do very well crunching through the bones on a raw diet and that done right it would really help clear up most of the problems she has. I'm just not sure where to start.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I found this website very helpful when starting with raw/home cooked: DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend


----------



## notquite (Nov 17, 2016)

Personally, I feed a base of high quality dog kibble (Farmina's N&D pumpkin & boar & apple) plus freeze-dried and high quality canned. Soon I'll be purchasing a bag of OC Raw Dog's meaty rox which frozen premade raw broken into pellets so it thaws in 15 minutes to supplement. 

My concerns about cooking meat is that it destroys some of the nutrition and extra benefits dogs need. Additionally, by making your own raw or cooking your own food, you may not be able to balance out the 1400 or so required nutrients a dog needs. It's easier to find a company that balances it for you with a team of scientists and dog nutritionists. 

Feeding grocery store bought raw can also potentially lead to certain risks for your dog. After all, our raw meat is designed to be cooked to kill any bacteria or disease. 

Personally, I don't trust any dog food that invests a lot in marketing or can be found on the shelf of Walmart or Tractor Supply. I lean towards less well-known brands that don't just have high quality ingredients and majority animal based protein, but also towards companies that source their ingredients well. But as with anything, companies can lie - and they do! So a grain of salt in literally everything is a very good idea. 

On top of all this, my life isn't entirely predictable so defrosting raw or traveling with raw is a huge PIA [emoji38] freeze-dried and kibble is much easier! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Knutdanoodle said:


> I didn't read the article, but have done a lot of research of the nutritional losses of kibble, along with rate of digestion of kibble vs raw. The thing I can't seem to find is a specific nutritional guide for raw foods for dogs of different breeds, like what proteins or carbs a specific breed may be more sensitive to than another.
> Also what a specific breed may actually need included in their diet vs another breed
> 
> I have a sharpei mixed with pit bull that has food sensitivities. I've been weaning her off the pedigree kibble and onto purina proplan with salmon, her farts are less stinky but her coat is getting worse. She is a heavy chewer, so I think she would do very well crunching through the bones on a raw diet and that done right it would really help clear up most of the problems she has. I'm just not sure where to start.
> ...


Have you done an elimination diet or any testing to figure out which foods are causing the issues? With my previous dog, we did the elimination diet. With Hans we just had Nutriscan done. In both cases, we never would have figured out which foods were causing the problems by simply guessing or changing kibble brands, so I'm a big believer in doing either the elimination diet or testing. Personally, I thought the cost of the Nutriscan test was worth avoiding the hassle of an elimination diet.

I'm not really sure how much a dog's nutrional requirements vary by breed...other than obviously very small and very large breeds having some unique requirements, especially as puppies.


----------



## aasteapots (Oct 6, 2013)

I had Coal on completely raw after she got sick but it was killing my budget as I couldn't go the traditional route of buying meat at the grocer. I had to buy freeze dried raw. With that being said, once she was well enough we tried to switch her to a traditional raw diet and she wasn't having any part of that! So back to freeze dried raw it was. Because there is NO WAY to sustain the cost of that I added RAWZ kibble which is an amazing product so I DO KIBBLE but only the best top quality stuff that is out there.


----------



## notquite (Nov 17, 2016)

seriously [emoji30] raw and freeze dried is hard on the wallet. Supplementing kibble with it is just easier + cheaper. Totally understand. 

But tbh, Aasteapots raises a good point! Some dogs are really picky so the best diet is what they eat and do well on. My girl was on raw for a month and then refused. It is what it is. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

fjm said:


> I
> 
> But although I prefer to feed my animals this way I am always sceptical of articles on nutrition that do not include references to the original sources. In which countries, for example can labels be used for 5 years regardless of changes of ingredients, or nutritional content vary by 500%? USA? EU? Australia? Qatar, where it seems the seminar was originally given? Where is the evidence to support the theory that a full stomach prevents torsion, which contradicts the more usual advice? It may all be true, or it may be personal opinion - without citations to research that can be evaluated it is impossible to know.



Exactly. While I don't know what the standards are in the small town in Denmark where the author of that article lives, it most certainly does not match what takes place in the feed industry in North America. By law, the ingredients must match the max/min requirements printed on each label. No such 5 year leeway exists. Also, by law, any preservatives added (whether directly by the manufacturer, or upstream as in ANY of the raw ingredients contained in the formula) must be posted on the ingredient label. That includes ethoxyquin, BHT, etc. The majority of what the author stated about manufacturing practices/laws to not apply to anyone purchasing food manufactured in North America.

Having said, that how rigid the testing is varies from State to State. With funds and manpower seriously lacking in many areas, I can't imagine too many States are checking for types and/or levels of preservatives so it becomes very easy to (oops) leave something off of a label. 

My advice for anyone feeding kibble, look for the obvious signs of quality, and perhaps even more important look for transparency within the company. If the manufacturer is open about their ingredients, the sources of those ingredients, and even the percentages of the various raw ingredients used in each formula, in my books that is a very good place to start. For anyone wanting to take it a step further there are independent labs in the USA that will test for various substances, such as ethoxyquin etc, and most manufacturers are very aware of that fact. 

IMO that article was a slurry of misinformation, and personal opinion.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/products/animalfoodfeeds/petfood/ucm2006475

http://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm305760.htm


----------

