# Update on Toy Breeder/Litter



## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I thought I'd just start a new thread since I'm asking about a different breeder now and I talked about so many in the first thread; I thought this would make it simpler.

So I got an update from the toy breeder who has a cafe and silver beige litter planned for early September.

In my email to her, I asked about a health guarantee and a contract. She said in her response that she doesn't provide a formal contract because her puppies are sold desexed, and doesn't have a written health guarantee. 

She wrote that I should save the email with this section, for the health guarantee: “I guarantee that if, in the first two years of life, the puppy has a health issue that is a hereditary fault of the breed that I could have tested for and failed to do so, or that I failed to perform all reasonable tests and health checks (per vet visit) on the puppy prior to the puppy leaving my care, I will replace the puppy at no cost to the new owner.”

Does that sound like an adequate guarantee?

She also wrote that puppies are given their first vaccination at 6 weeks, temperament tested at 7 weeks, kidney function tested at 8 weeks, desexed and microchipped at 9 weeks, and get their second vaccination at 10 weeks, and then are allowed to go to their new homes. 

She also wrote something that makes me think she allocates puppies at birth, despite temperament testing. This is what she wrote: "A puppy is not considered sold until a deposit is paid. A deposit of $500 will secure you the second female in the litter. If there is no second female, I will refund your deposit as I will not be having more puppies for another 12 months."

I sent her an email with my questions, and explained that I'm after a male puppy, not a female. 

What do you all think of her response?


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I would look elsewhere! She does not health test the parents. Shots at 6 weeks??? Way too early! Desex at 9 weeks? yikes! Second vaccine at 10 weeks? That is when they should be getting their FIRST vaccine.

Look up Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine protocol. 

If your puppy comes up with say PRA at 2 years old are you really going to return the pup for a new one? 

Yet if the parents were tested this would not be a concern. Just not a chance I would take.

Again, testing is not a guarantee that your pup won't have any problems, but it will strengthen your odds.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Hi there,

Oh boy.... No formal health guarantee, selling puppies already spayed/neutered, first vaccinations at 6 weeks!!! Does she show her dogs? Does she do any formal health testing with results that are posted on the OFFA site? 

There is no need to vaccinate the puppies until they are 8 weeks old. They still have their mother's protections until they are 8 weeks old and giving them shots before that, doesn't do anything and makes the shots null and void. They would need another set of shots.

Why early spay/neuter? There are so many potential problems with them? 

I say run, don't walk away from this breeder.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> I would look elsewhere! She does not health test the parents. Shots at 6 weeks??? Way too early! Desex at 9 weeks? yikes! Second vaccine at 10 weeks? That is when they should be getting their FIRST vaccine.
> 
> Look up Dr. Jean Dodds vaccine protocol.
> 
> ...



Desexing at 9 weeks should be criminal - she is greatly increasing the odds that the puppies will have orthopedic problems!
And yes, actually PRA screening can guarantee that your puppy will not have the disease!
And asking. For a $500 deposit on a Toy litter to guarantee the second female? Toys typically only have 1-3 puppies in a litter. Clearly temperament testing is meaningless here, and you certainly do need a certain temperament for a Service dog,
So sorry, but nothing is right about the situation with his breeder!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

Sorry, I should have mentioned that she does fully health test the parents, this just did not come up in the email she sent to me last night. I guess it must sound as though she doesn't health test the parents, from the "health guarantee" statement. 

I suppose I will be looking elsewhere again. I'm running out of places to look... Hopefully, some good breeders are waiting until they actually have litters before posting about them on Dogzonline. 

I also got a response from a mini breeder yesterday, that I emailed a while ago, that said if a lab was too boisterous and energetic for me, that a mini poodle would be so, too. I would very much have to disagree with that breeder. I have never met a poodle that is as crazy as my first lab SD was, nor one that needed 5+ hours of walking/running and several hours of mental stimulation per day, like my second lab SD. Honestly, that dog never stopped!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the general protocols for breeding may be different in oz than in the u.s. i can't be positive, but surely there are guidelines put forth by the governing body on all the issues of testing, vaccination, etc? there are valid reasons folks here are questioning the breeder. sometimes, however, breeders don't have a choice if they are following the protocols of their country or organization. many many years ago i imported a retired champion lowchen from australia. at the time, all members in good standing of the lowchen club were prohibited from selling puppies/litters overseas. the breeder from whom i obtained my dog went berserk when i told her i had just visited an imported lowchen pup at a pet shop. 

u.s. based breeders are also often looked at askance by european breeders because removing dew claws and docking tails are verboten in some (if not all) european countries. by the way, i believe i recall a post in which arreau referred to her imported dog and how her questions led to testing by the breeder she was dealing with. i may have garbled that a bit. if so, my apologies, but i know there was a reference to testing that was not widespread.


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I forgot to answer some of the questions above.

She says she spays/neuters early because she 'doesn't want her babies used as slaves in puppy mills'. She does show her dogs, and says she only breeds litters when she, or one of her friends, is looking for a new dog to show.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well i would talk to her about the concerns associated with early spay/neutering. there are lots of owners here (and breeders, too, i suspect) who have changed their minds on that issue as new information has become available. don't throw in the towel yet.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I think the second female question is answered right there. She only breeds when she is ready for a new pup for herself, and a breeder would be likely to be looking for a female puppy. This is seen over and over here in the U.S., and I would not have any problem with it. To me, she actually sounds like a more solid breeder, albeit one who possibly had a problem in the past with a puppy buyer who became a backyard breeder with one of her precious puppies. So now she wants to keep the ones going to pet homes 100% safe.

For a Toy, I think the early spay/neuter may have less potential impact than on a larger variety or breed. Yes, I think it's early, but shelters across the U.S. do it as a matter of course.

Imho, I wouldn't turn away automatically. Since these are Toys, you could maybe ask her if she has a puppy for you to keep him until he is three or four months old (if she would have the time to sufficiently socialize him), and delay the neuter until that time. Especially since yours will be a working home, maybe she is willing to work with you on this.

I'm not sure what services your dog will be performing for you, but if they rely on strength, agility, jumping, and or anything that relies on physical capabilities, perhaps she will be willing to allow a later neuter. I'd continue to talk with her and see if you can get qualified as a potential puppy buyer. You want to look for a breeder with whom you will have lifetime contact and camaraderie, not just a puppy seller. She sounds like a real possibility to me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jsc said:


> Sorry, I should have mentioned that she does fully health test the parents, this just did not come up in the email she sent to me last night. I guess it must sound as though she doesn't health test the parents, from the "health guarantee" statement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do contact reputable breeders who don't have litters listed - they may be so popular that they just go by word of mouth, no need to list litters online!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I'll keep in touch with the toy breeder, and see if we can work something out. I sent her an email with some questions, so hopefully I'll hear back soon and we can get a real dialogue going.

I sent off a a really short email to 28 toy breeders throughout Australia. I just asked if they may have puppies available in November/December and specified that I'm looking for a male that I intend to train as an SD. I didn't want to write too much in the email, since I rarely get replies when my emails are more than a few lines. If I do hear back from some breeders that will have puppies, I'll look into them more thoroughly. I emailed so many because I know a lot won't even bother to reply to me and many of them won't have puppies at the right time.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jsc said:


> I'll keep in touch with the toy breeder, and see if we can work something out. I sent her an email with some questions, so hopefully I'll hear back soon and we can get a real dialogue going.
> 
> 
> 
> I sent off a a really short email to 28 toy breeders throughout Australia. I just asked if they may have puppies available in November/December and specified that I'm looking for a male that I intend to train as an SD. I didn't want to write too much in the email, since I rarely get replies when my emails are more than a few lines. If I do hear back from some breeders that will have puppies, I'll look into them more thoroughly. I emailed so many because I know a lot won't even bother to reply to me and many of them won't have puppies at the right time.



Good start, but keep in mind that many breeders are more responsive to phone calls than emails.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Unfortunately many of us have issues with phones especially if there is a stranger on the end we want to make a good impression on. I panic when someone asks me to call them. It may take me over an hour to build myself up to call someone on the phone. Calling Charlene about my puppy was one of the hardest and scariest things I have done in years.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would call the President of the Australian governing body Poodle Association/Club and see if he or she can't give me a short list of ethical toy breeders. I did this with another breed in the states and got a list as well as additional questions to address with the breeder. Then I called. I got instant responses, when I left messages that the president of the national breed call suggested I call. Good luck!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I've actually had a LOT of responses already! I've had 12 breeders respond and 10 of them are having litters later this year. Some are having litters later than I planned to get my boy, so I've crossed them off, because I want to have as much time to spend with him as possible over the summer holidays. 

I've been emailing with the suitable breeders and have mostly narrowed it down to three breeders, for the time being. I do have a first choice of breeder/litter, but there is still so much more to ask and learn about these breeders, so I haven't decided yet. Also, since toys have such small litters, it'll be best to be on more than one waiting list anyway. 

I'll update again when I've got more news.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am glad to see that persistence and a little digging looks like it will pay off. I understand wanting to have time at home with a new pup. the only thing different I would have asked for about Javelin would have been to be able to bring him home a couple of weeks sooner. He has been here just over five weeks, will be 14 weeks old tomorrow, but I have to go back to work in two weeks. I wish I had more time at home.


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