# Ian Dunbar is freaking me out.



## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Will our new puppy really need to meet 100 new people between the ages of 8 and 12 weeks or be doomed to the horrible consequences of inadequate socialization?!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

WinnieJane said:


> Will our new puppy really need to meet 100 new people between the ages of 8 and 12 weeks or be doomed to the horrible consequences of inadequate socialization?!


No...just do your best to introduce your puppy to as many different people during that time and make sure every experience is a positive one.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Maizie met way more than 100! Take your pup out in a stroller until vaccinations are complete. Let people pet your puppy at your local coffee shop, outdoor shopping center, garden store, etc. Great for puppy, and pet therapy for the public


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> Maizie met way more than 100! Take your pup out in a stroller until vaccinations are complete. Let people pet your puppy at your local coffee shop, outdoor shopping center, garden store, etc. Great for puppy, and pet therapy for the public


That sounds more manageable than inviting parties of strange men over for beer, pizza and puppy petting!


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

I should add that I am finding this book alternately exasperating and delightful -- the sample men's puppy party invitation he provides pretty much sums it all up!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

WinnieJane said:


> That sounds more manageable than inviting parties of strange men over for beer, pizza and puppy petting!


hahahah!


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think Ian Dunbar has said before that he asks for large, specific numbers of things because if he just says "a lot" people tend to fall short. So like in his book he says that when you're potty training you should give the dog exactly 5 liver treats every time she potties outside. It's not that 5 is some magic number that gets puppies to understand things; he just wants you to heavily reward and if you fall short of 5 rewards that's better than not giving one reward.

But yeah, put down a blanket in a shopping cart and wheel your puppy around a pet-friendly store. Then ask everyone you see if they want to meet the puppy. You could get 100 people in two busy weekends!


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

LOL on the pizza, beer and puppy-petting party! 

I agree with Lisasgirl -- one of the easiest ways to introduce your puppy to a wide range of people is to take a towel, go to a pet-friendly store like Petsmart, Petco or Home Depot or Lowes (most, though not all, are dog friendly) and put the puppy in a cart sitting on the towel and just walk around. You probably won't even have to invite people to greet the puppy as I found that many people were eager and interested in the puppy. Have a pocketful of small tasty treats so that you can reward your puppy as you move around. Pets from strangers -- treat treat treat--- noisy paint mixer - treat treat - big old ladder clanging -- treat treat treat. I'm sure you get the idea! I preferred the home improvement stores over pet stores because there were more people who were pleased to see a puppy (most pet store patrons seemed naturally more interested in their own dogs) -- and there was a lot of other useful socialization activity, such as big carts, machinery, tall ladders, families of men women and children and so on.

I am pretty sure we met well over a hundred people in just a few outings like the above, so it is totally doable.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think quality (People are nice! They give puppies treats! I like people!) and variety (all different ages, shapes, sizes, colours, hairiness, clothing, hats, hoods, etc, etc) are more important than simply quantity - as Lisasgirl says, 100 is a nice round number, and if people fall short at least their pups will have met more than just the family and a friend or two! There will always be things that you don't think of - I worked hard with Sophy, who was pretty well socialised already, and congratulated myself on how well adjusted she was. Then out on a walk she froze and stared in wide eyed horror at a man approaching us. He had a toddler in a back carrier, and from her point of view was a two-headed human! Then there were the cows in the tree to bark at (they were actually on a hillside behind the tree, but it did look just as if they were walking along the branches), the legless humans floating along the grass (I had to take her to see the sunken path to get her over that one), and other similar occasions. The world can be a very surreal place when your eyes are only 18 inches from the ground...


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

nifty said:


> LOL on the pizza, beer and puppy-petting party!
> 
> I agree with Lisasgirl -- one of the easiest ways to introduce your puppy to a wide range of people is to take a towel, go to a pet-friendly store like Petsmart, Petco or Home Depot or Lowes (most, though not all, are dog friendly) and put the puppy in a cart sitting on the towel and just walk around. You probably won't even have to invite people to greet the puppy as I found that many people were eager and interested in the puppy. Have a pocketful of small tasty treats so that you can reward your puppy as you move around. Pets from strangers -- treat treat treat--- noisy paint mixer - treat treat - big old ladder clanging -- treat treat treat. I'm sure you get the idea! I preferred the home improvement stores over pet stores because there were more people who were pleased to see a puppy (most pet store patrons seemed naturally more interested in their own dogs) -- and there was a lot of other useful socialization activity, such as big carts, machinery, tall ladders, families of men women and children and so on.
> 
> I am pretty sure we met well over a hundred people in just a few outings like the above, so it is totally doable.


This is pretty much what I did with both Iris and Poppy. Poppy was 13 weeks when I got her, so was past that critical socialization timeframe, but she was confident and very social when I got her so I don't think the age is as critical as the meeting and greeting is. She has been everywhere with me and met hundreds of friendly people. 

Do your best and don't sweat the small things. It will all work out fine.

I have raised many puppies and even I get overwhelmed and frustrated sometimes. "This too shall pass" is my mantra right now....."It won't last forever" is another.

Enjoy that pup!

Viking Queen


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

I'm totally up for pizza, beer and puppy petting! On a side note, 100 people in even 5 weekends would leave me in a frenzy of panic attacks! LOL

We just try to take Addison out a lot. Farmers markets, evening walks, parks and shopping (dog friendly) on the weekends...

"Can I pet your dog?"

Yes please do! 

I was so concerned about socialization I was asking people to come over and meet her. My husband makes fun of me about it..


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Thanks for the perspective, everyone! Home Depot is a great idea. It occurs to me that school will be starting around the 11-week point -- carrying the puppy to and from the playground will provide plenty of exposure to many enthusiastic puppy greeters.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Home Depot would be great! Cleo came to us very under-socialized, and two of her biggest ongoing triggers are large men and people carrying objects (especially weird-shaped or large objects, but really anything). You'd probably find lots of both of those at a hardware store!

The school sounds great too. Lots of kids, lots of backpacks, lots to see.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

I walked Pericles in the high school yard when he was young...it's great, you get 10 new people all at once. 10 per cent at one go.

Just exposing the puppy in their own neighborhood works well. When Pericles and I were out,I'd ask the kids to come by on their skateboards. Once when a fellow had his motorcycle stopped at the stop sign, I asked him to gun it a couple of times. He of course thought I was loony. But Pericles still doesn't mind skateboards, bicycles, or motorbikes...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh my, I've met Ian Dunbar a number of times and have workshopped with Lily with him. You don't have to be hard and fast about the number, he is trying to get you to understand what is important by emphasizing numbers. The important thing is many people, many places and high rewards and praise for good executions of the things you are teaching.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

WinnieJane said:


> That sounds more manageable than inviting parties of strange men over for beer, pizza and puppy petting!


In my younger days, I would've been all over this idea! LOL


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I took my Dane puppy to lots of places where there were people but not other dogs for socializing. We went to Starbucks, the ballpark, the garden center of Menards (I don't think that was actually allowed but the cashier told me to go on in when I was waiting outside with the puppy). Farmer's markets are great places to go. Just go anywhere and everywhere you can think of and make sure all experiences are positive - that's really the important part. It's not just exporting your puppy to everything, it's making sure all those experiences are positive. 

A beer and pizza puppy party sounds great, but if you take your puppy other places, you don't have to clean your house before people come over


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

marialydia said:


> I walked Pericles in the high school yard when he was young...it's great, you get 10 new people all at once. 10 per cent at one go.
> 
> Just exposing the puppy in their own neighborhood works well. When Pericles and I were out,I'd ask the kids to come by on their skateboards. Once when a fellow had his motorcycle stopped at the stop sign, I asked him to gun it a couple of times. He of course thought I was loony. But Pericles still doesn't mind skateboards, bicycles, or motorbikes...


That was brilliant. We have a horrible dog in our neighborhood who snarls and lunges at kids on scooters and skateboards. My kids will be able to provide lots of conditioning!


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

lily cd re said:


> Oh my, I've met Ian Dunbar a number of times and have workshopped with Lily with him. You don't have to be hard and fast about the number, he is trying to get you to understand what is important by emphasizing numbers. The important thing is many people, many places and high rewards and praise for good executions of the things you are teaching.


I do love his approach and advice ... but the extremism is a bit anxiety -provoking! "Let your dog have an accident in the house and he'll end up an untrainable mess who dies alone in a shelter." Okay, that was a bit of an exaggeration- Dunbar's style is rubbing off on me!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ian's great passion these days about dogs is keeping them out of shelters and rescues. He absolutely wants every person who gets a puppy to do right by it to keep it from becoming a mess of an adolescent who is confined in an out of the way room in the house and later a crazy barking dog on a chain in the yard while it waits for somebody to take it away. I think he is right. I would love it if rescues only were needed for dogs whose owners had gone to a nursing home or had died and shelters didn't exist at all.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Timi was with her breeder until 14 weeks, and although she was in her groom room where customers and delivery men would come and go, because she was ill when she was younger, she kept her with her mama, separate from the other puppies, so I doubt she directly met many people. When my friend visited my breeder when Timi was 11 weeks, she let her and her husband hold her, but would not let them put her feet on the ground, and she was the most bomb proof, confident puppy that you could ever hope for on the day that she came home, so I am more of the belief that it is their innate temperament more than anything else - so if your puppy is good, I really doubt that the number of people that they meet will have much impact.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Lori G said:


> In my younger days, I would've been all over this idea! LOL


OH YEAH! Me too.....with maybe a few shots of tequila thrown in there!!! Hahaha!


But alas, in my doddering years I had to make do with taking Molly to the large Mall, where we invited the public to met us from the comfort of a bench. Plenty of noise and kids and curious adults. Home Depot was a delight place too......
gotta love those rolling ladders and forklifts!!!LOL!


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

Catherine, for balance I'll tell you what I love about Ian Dunbar: He gives me confidence that we can train our dog to be a civilized member of the family who can be trusted in the house. I know families whose adult dogs are crated every time they leave the house, and even for the work day, and whenever guests are over. I'd rather put in the work up front and help our dog earn freedom later.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

WinnieJane said:


> Catherine, for balance I'll tell you what I love about Ian Dunbar: He gives me confidence that we can train our dog to be a civilized member of the family who can be trusted in the house. I know families whose adult dogs are crated every time they leave the house, and even for the work day, and whenever guests are over. I'd rather put in the work up front and help our dog earn freedom later.



That's the right attitude! Our dogs are integrated members of our family. BF's daughter is in her 20s and lives in Florida. We don't have younger children together and although I don't treat we don't treat our dogs as though they are kids, they fill that niche for our family. They all have jobs too and when they are working they have to do as expected (or at least try really hard to be successful), but when they are home they have free run of the house and are totally trustworthy and guests have to expect to be met by them.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have to say I do treat mine as kids, even talk to them as if they are. If they do something wrong (mainly Cayenne), I tell the once, then say, "now what did I tell you". Then they will do what was said prior, my friends laugh at me and are amazed how good they are in public, but as you say at home they have free run, as long as they are good.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Gosh, I cannot imagine having a dog who does not have free run of the home like any family member! I also feel sad for dogs who have to live in "crate and rotate" type situations because the dogs cannot be trusted together...


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I don't treat my dogs as my kids, but I still love them like crazy. Humans come first, and then dogs  Because I have kids and I am a social person, we have lots of people coming through the house and the dogs love that. I firmly believe as the human who provides for the rest of the household, the dogs must mold to MY ways, and somehow even though I'm kind of a terrible dog trainer, eventually they do. As you know I have a very dominant Boston Terrier but she is aware that her little Game of Thrones warrior princess personality must be shelved around the other dogs because I won't have it. However she does kill interlopers outside such as birds and frogs, gulp. And at night before bed when I watch a bit of t.v. she is always jumping on the remote control, changing the channel. We joke that she is saying to us, "let's watch a show about killing!" lol


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

Pickles was a rescue. He was from a back yard breeder, I was told. He was totally socialized. He's great with women, other dogs, prams (pushers), scooters, bikes, skateboards, ect. Only thing he's still scared of is men. Not all men, he's okay with some, but I have't yet worked out why he likes certain ones. 
He hates anybody who yells, and anybody who sits too close to me. To be fair, it's probably a reflection of how I feel, because I hate anybody sitting close to me, I get nervous when people yell, tall people (I'm really, really short). I always think he can't tell when I don't like someone, but he knows me better than anybody, I'm probably an open book to him.
Hendrix is funny though. He was with his breeder until he was 4 and half months, and she worked at a vet's office. She used to take him with er, so he's really social. The weird thing is the other day I was at a friend's house and he saw some people standing across the street. He got really scared until they left, nothing would make him calm down.
My reasoning is that because they weren't moving he didn't know what they were doing, maybe they creeped him out a bit.
In terms of whether or not I treat them like kids, I would say I treat them like dogs, but I think of them like kids. That being said, they get freedom. I think the more trust I give them, the better they behave. I let them stay offleash when I check the mail or put the bin out, and I trust them to be good overnight when they're both locked in my bedroom. It might not sound like much, but if a dog walked past right as I walked out the door to check the mail, I couldn't stop them from running to it physically, I just trust that I can stop them by saying they can't go over to it. 
Dogs are amazing animals.


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

When I get my spoo, I will definitely be doing a ton more socializing that what I did with my current mixed herding breed. I got her at eight weeks old (she's a "rescue"), but she has always HATED meeting new people out and about. Even at that age, she refused to take treats from strangers no matter the location or amount of commotion. So I stopped forcing it on her at about 10 weeks. She's six months now and just starting to come out of her shell. 

HOWEVER: If your puppy is a normal, friendly dog, then go everywhere! I take all trainers' philosophy with a grain of salt. Every dog has individual needs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

kmart, Javelin still doesn't take treats from most strangers but likes the people. He is just picky about treats and won't take something that is the quality of a "milk bone" or similar. I have found that he will take things I know he likes from many people after he gets a read on them. I am sure you are reading your dog well, but wonder if you upped the value of what the new people were offering if you thought it might help. He's still young enough you could make progress there unless you think it is really part of his temperament not to greet strangers.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Is it a must that our dogs like strangers? Timi, is a typical New Yorker, and is totally indifferent to strangers, and I like it that way. We pass more than a hundred people just walking to the corner - it would be awful if she wanted to say hello to all of them!
I also love that I don't have to go over and helicopter when somebody try's to pet her at the dog park (folks always want to pick up little dogs and you have to be careful that they don't squeeze them too tight or drop them), but I can rest assured that try as they might, nobody is getting their hands on Timi. Unless they have an ice cream cone, then she will climb them like a tree lol!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think it is a must more than it is for people to gravitate to strangers, but I like that I can get a read on a stranger from how my dogs react with the baseline being that normal people are greeted happily and then being able to see that an unhappy dog is telling me there is something not right about someone we don't know. Peeves helped me choose a contractor that way.

But to go back to the Ian Dunbar perspective a dog must be comfortable with strange vets, vet techs, groomers and the like or they can't be properly cared for and a person who doesn't read dogs well might assume their dog is okay in certain public settings and then have a big problem if their dog unexpectedly bites a stranger.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I don't think it is a must more than it is for people to gravitate to strangers, but I like that I can get a read on a stranger from how my dogs react with the baseline being that normal people are greeted happily and then being able to see that an unhappy dog is telling me there is something not right about someone we don't know. Peeves helped me choose a contractor that way.
> 
> But to go back to the Ian Dunbar perspective a dog must be comfortable with strange vets, vet techs, groomers and the like or they can't be properly cared for and a person who doesn't read dogs well might assume their dog is okay in certain public settings and then have a big problem if their dog unexpectedly bites a stranger.



Oh Timi doesn't like strangers, but she has zero aggression in her, she will tolerate the vet and the techs just fine. She does not look happy about it, but she is not going to struggle with them or bite them, not a chance, so I think that is good enough.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

As I said you have to be able to read your dog. I know you read Timi like a well loved book forwards and backwards, but those of us here generally do and many other people don't. Preaching to the choir as to most PF members, but might be helpful to lurkers to think about.


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## LittleAussiePoodle (Jun 2, 2016)

I meant totally UNsocialized when I was talking about Pickles. A few of you probably got the wrong idea lol.
Pickles is mostly good. The thing I like about him is I know him better than anybody, and I can tell how much he likes someone. I know if it's cold, he'll be friendlier toward people, but that he will NEVER willingly jump up on any man's lap. On the other hand, if he's on a lead and crying after first meeting a lady, who is now sitting down, then I know he wants to be let off so he can go jump on her lap.
I know that if a man comes into my house, Pickles will bark and generally go crazy. If I tell Pickles to calm down and he does, I know the guy is okay. Any man that has been in our house more than once will be COMPLETELY ignored any time he comes in the house. 
Pickles won't even run to the door to see who's there, he just KNOWS.
On the other hand, any woman who has been to the house more than once will be attacked by kisses and tiny paws. It's funny how they pick and choose who they like. Pickles never liked my ex. Pickles never liked my friend's ex.
Sometimes a dog who maybe isn't the friendliest can be a great thing to have around. If you won't meet my dog on the first date, I don't trust you. Also he has to like you. And good luck with that, if you're male he probably hates you.
Pickles hates my brother, and he hates the male vet. He pees when he sees both (which is weird since he leaps onto my brother every time he comes to visit). I think Pickles has only ever liked 3 men. He let them pat him without cowering or barking at them. They were just random teachers at my local school. My friend laughs about it now, saying she should take him everywhere, and that those men must've been pretty nice for Pickles to be.
On the flip side, there have only been one woman Pickles HATED. Normally if he doesn't like a lady he'll just leave them alone, ignore them. It's more like he doesn't care either way. But this one woman, a friend of mine, he always barked at. It got to the point where he would bark at her the entire time she came over. Once, he was in the room when she hit my with a pillow, because I said something funny, whatever - Pickles launched himself at her, and I'm still shocked he didn't bite her, the sounds coming out of his mouth. 
I've only ever heard him make that noise twice, and both times he was lunging at someone. I don't put it past him to bite someone, but he really has to be mad, because seriously, if looks could kill.
Turns out he was right all along, she was stealing my stuff. Good job, Pickles. Detective Pickle, on the case.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I had a Silkie Terrier 96 pounds) and as I look at it today, he hated my boyfriend, I got rid of the dog, should have kept him and kicked the guy out. He was a hard headed dog and bit my friend at the time, 3 times, and bit a house guest at a party (man) on the nose. He hated men with a passion. God help you if I guy put is arm around his wife, that damn dog would jump off my lap and take a running leap.


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> kmart, Javelin still doesn't take treats from most strangers but likes the people. He is just picky about treats and won't take something that is the quality of a "milk bone" or similar. I have found that he will take things I know he likes from many people after he gets a read on them. I am sure you are reading your dog well, but wonder if you upped the value of what the new people were offering if you thought it might help. He's still young enough you could make progress there unless you think it is really part of his temperament not to greet strangers.


Oh she's gotten over it now. I don't want her to feel the need to greet every stranger we meet, so she basically ignores most people when we're out and about. If the person greets her first or has treats, she'll be polite. But I really don't want her saying hi to strangers, anyway unless they introduce themselves and don't just try to get my dog to come over to them. That kinda creeps both of us out. 

But she's fine meeting new people now. We tried every treat imaginable when she was a baby. Nothing worked and she just got stressed out and stressed me out so I stopped forcing it and she's turned out pretty great despite that. 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

We have kids who have friends over, and we live in an urban environment where we often walk instead of driving - we'll even be walking to both the vet and our puppy classes. I suspect a beautiful black standard poodle is going to be irresistible to many fellow pedestrians. (Maybe that's my bias showing!) Our dog may not need to like people, but it will definitely need to tolerate them politely.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

glorybeecosta said:


> I had a Silkie Terrier 96 pounds) and as I look at it today, he hated my boyfriend, I got rid of the dog, should have kept him and kicked the guy out. He was a hard headed dog and bit my friend at the time, 3 times, and bit a house guest at a party (man) on the nose. He hated men with a passion. God help you if I guy put is arm around his wife, that damn dog would jump off my lap and take a running leap.


I meant 6 pounds not 96 sorry to late to edit


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## WinnieJane (May 6, 2016)

I have to laugh at these man-hating dogs! Our GSD cornered my high school boyfriend the first time he entered our house. I got an attack CAT in grad school who hated everyone except me- and my now-husband. The first time he came over, she sat in his lap, so I knew he was a keeper.


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