# Growling and getting more grouchy



## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

My first suggestion is to find an experienced trainer or behaviorist to work with you. Dim Sum has been through a great deal in his life and a trainer/behaviorist can help you work with him in the most efficient and effect was possible.

American College of Veterinary Behaviorists
IAABC
Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers 

This video by Sophia Yin explains how to 



. The same technique can be used for any handling. Her YouTube channel has several videos that may be of interest, too. There's one that is similar to the nail clipper one that shows a who dog is aggressive when people blow in his face - she desensitizes/counter-conditions him to that. The basic idea is that you are changing the dog's emotional response to handling, people, and places.

Good luck!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i have never heard that your own dog growling at you has any redeeming social value. from what i understand, it can be tolerated to some extent among dogs if you have several, as long as it does not escalate. but it should not be directed at you. i agree that you need the intervention of a good behaviorist - the sooner the better.


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## elaine amj (Jun 9, 2013)

Dr Sophia Yin's videos were great. I made my husband sit and watch the one where she kept blowing at the dog.

So tonight, he worked with Dim Sum, making the annoying noise that Dim Sum hates, feeding him the whole time. Within a treat or two, Dim Sum stopped growling or baring his teeth and was eagerly awaiting the next treat. Every once in a while, we would stop and just sit quietly for 30 seconds or so and then start treating (and doing the annoying thing) again. 

After a few minutes, we worked on "come". I sat across the room from my husband. We then called him back and forth between us. Husband had treats, I just had praise and a cuddle. After a few minutes, he was running eagerly to my husband consistently (with much more excitement than when I called him over). 

Later, a friend stopped by with her tiny Chihuahua. Her dog was very scared and Dim Sum as always tried to rush over to sniff. I held him back and he would not settle down. I put him to my son's room for a 30 second timeout. When I let him out, I made him sit. Then I brought him near the chi and again told him to sit. He was still very excited but controlled himself better, staying in the sit. The chi came over and sniffed him and shortly I was able to let him get up and sniff back. 

I'm so glad the timeout worked to calm him down!! Last time the chi visited we had to keep them separated because the chi was terrified to death of him. The funniest thing was...he fell in love with that chi tonight. Never seen a dog in love before! 

We're going to continue working on him. I have been wanting to keep him off the bed and couch but for our family, it's been hard to resist the temptation of letting him on. I also have a feeling we haven't been exercising him enough. The last few days, he has only had short walks and that was when he started getting grouchier. All this time I have been careful to keep him well exercised.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

A growl is a warning. Take away the growl and you can get bit with no warning. At least when they growl you can find out what their issues are and work on them so they no longer need to growl.

It sounds like you are making wonderful progress already. I would still consult a behaviorist without delay before bad behavior becomes habituated . Good luck and let us know how things are coming along. I think more exercise is an excellent idea.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

Sorry to steal your thread...but I am confused...

I thought no dog should grow at the owner, but if growling is a warning and you are trying to train it from not being aggressive toward you, those seem like contradictory statements. My pup sometimes growls at my son when he gently pets her while she is resting/sleeping. I didn't like that at all...what would you suggest that I do? Should I desensitize the pup with treats while my son pets her? But other times, she is very sweet toward my son, so I am not sure what the growling means...is it simply "leave me alone for now", and is that kind of growling acceptable then? Thanks for any advice in advance.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Growling is a signal saying "I don't like that, it makes me uncomfortable". If what is happening is essential, you can work on counter conditioning (associating the activity with Good Stuff, so that it becomes pleasant) or desensitising (introducing it in tiny, tiny steps so that the dog no longer worries about it). Or, for non-essentials, you can accept that the dog has the right to choose, and leave her alone. In your case, I think I would simply tell your son that the dog does not like to be petted when she is trying to sleep, and to save up the attention for when she is awake and will enjoy it.

Think of being very sleepy, and very comfortable, and nearly asleep, and someone comes and tries to tickle you. At first you might change position to move away; then make a humph noise; then mutter "Stop it! Leave me alone"; and eventually, if they persevered, you might yell at them or hit out at them. Learning to read the dog equivalent of the first two means they do not need to progress to growling - the canine equivalent of the third - and still less to snapping or biting.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My dogs will do those warning growls at each other when they are sleeping and feel that their space is being invaded, but Never at a human. My personal feeling is that your dog is beginning to think of your son as lower ranking in the pack then him, thus he feels free to warn, and may escalate to "disciplining" ( snapping) If your son is old enough I would have him do some obedience exercises with with treats - in the dogs mind this will elevate your son's position in the pack, and he would be much less likely to growl at someone above him in rank.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

Tiny poodles, I think the ranking thing makes a lot of sense. I will have my son do some training with treats with her as well as fmj's advice to leave her alone when she is sleeping. Thanks!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I grew up with a schnauzer that firmly believed that she was above me in the pack - I was the only one in the family that she would attack - if my older brothers got into a fight and I was in the room, the dog would attack me!
It is amazing that I still liked dogs after that....and it sad to think how a little early intervention could have made it so different!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I wonder if it could be confidence, rather than social ranking. I remember that when my mother's dog had pups, she was very clear about who was allowed near when they were little. Strangers, regardless of age, were warned off. My mother was trusted completely. For my sisters and I, it varied - she would not let me too close until I was 10 or so, when she decided I was trustworthy. My older sister, who was less interested in animals, didn't get the same rights until she was several years older.

When Sophy was recently in pain from a slipped disc, she snapped at the vet when he tried to handle her, and yet let me do all the same things without a murmur. I had years of proving I would try my best not to hurt her; she sees the vet only occasionally, and has not built up the same relationship...

Having children do positive, reward based training will help whether the issue is trust or rank, of course - one of the wonderful things about kind training methods. Sorry - I fear I may have hijacked this thread even further...


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

fjm said:


> Having children do positive, reward based training will help whether the issue is trust or rank, of course - one of the wonderful things about kind training methods.


Great advice. My favorite part about children participating in training is teaching the children how to interact with the dog at the level that is appropriate for their age and that includes not letting them handle a dog unsupervised until they are old enough to recognize the non-growl signals that mean a dog is stressed by them. Dogs aren't toys, they are sensient beings that should be invited to play or cuddle, not be forced to endure it silently if they don't enjoy it. 

It's also important for parents to remember that ALL children are loud, fast moving, emotionally charged and usually very uncoordinated. And I mean all ages, not just toddlers. That's a lot for any dog to handle, but especially the small breeds. A tween who screams at her mom every morning (or squeals on the phone or insert some boy equivalent behaviors ) may find the pet dog is wary of her even though she never raises her voice at all to the pup. 

Positive training will help the pup associate the child with more good experiences than bad, but that doesn't mean the pup won't still have times when they don't feel well enough to be around a certain person. Or have places that should be guaranteed child free for their own sanity (like their crate.)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

fjm said:


> When Sophy was recently in pain from a slipped disc, she snapped at the vet when he tried to handle her, and yet let me do all the same things without a murmur. I had years of proving I would try my best not to hurt her; she sees the vet only occasionally, and has not built up the same relationship...


this exemplifies exactly what i mean about dogs not growling at the owner. my dog still does not love being bathed, brushed, having nails trimmed, etc., but he would never growl or snap at me. having a dog is being involved in a relationship and it's important to recognize when things are not right and something has to be done to mend the relationship.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

hello
I work with rescue dogs but I do not profess to be a dog behaviorist or trainer. I was told by a dog trainer once that she doesn't work with any rescue dog until they are thoroughly and currently checked by a vet. With that being said, it seemed like a good idea. (I was directed to this behaviorist thru the rescue I was working with. The male toy poodle we had had snapped at my adult daughter and this was reason for concern. After a 2 hour session, the behaviorist deemed him safe and really had high praise for him.)
in dealing with rescue dogs, it's often hard to figure out the issues they have. I don't know dim sum's story, as I'm new here, so hope I am not overstepping my boundaries! 
My job as a rescuer is to do the basic stuff: house/crate/leash train, strict feeding schedule, home environment, socialization, grooming. Behavior issues are best left to a professional. Your foster mom really took time with dim sum, wow, 6 months! Normally it take 6 months for a dog to feel like they are in a permanent home, so maybe his foster home for 6 and now your home confused him? Just thinking here.
If you should decide to visit the vet, I would make sure he checks for teeth, ear leg/knee issues. Could some of these things be causing him pain and he is acting out with growling? 
how old is your child? could dim sum be trying to move up the pack? don't let that happen. a dog should never be ''above' a family member.
I don't know, just a thought. good luck with your training and I hope a solution is found.


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

patk said:


> this exemplifies exactly what i mean about dogs not growling at the owner. my dog still does not love being bathed, brushed, having nails trimmed, etc., but he would never growl or snap at me. having a dog is being involved in a relationship and it's important to recognize when things are not right and something has to be done to mend the relationship.


Even the best trained, most submissive to humans animal will reach a stress threshold that prompts an undesirable response. We focus on growling because it's usually the first signal that the human can recognize that something bad might happen to the human NOT the first signal that the animal gives that it thinks something bad is or is about to happen to him.

Then often the human reinforces the growling (as the OP described) by responding in the way the dog desires (rewarding the behavior just like any other operand conditioning) and so the dog learns to jump straight to growling because the human didn't understand the lip licking, head turning, ground sniffing, fear wetting, etc.

And dogs who are "dominated" into never growling or who are not gently taught how to bite softly as puppies (vs just teaching never to bite) will likewise skip those communication steps and go straight to a painful bite if the situation ever arises. 

For example, being moved off the side of the road by a good samaritan who saw them get hit by a car. Not saying that you are implying to teach through dominance just trying to explain why it's not a black and white, OMG, the dog growled it's a red zone someone get the behaviorist stat kind of situation everytime. I think what I'm trying to clarify is that *It does need to be addressed but it's the underlying situation that the dog is trying to communicate that needs to be corrected, not just that the dog is growling.*

-- edited, which after re-reading seems to be exactly what you were saying with "mending the relationship". Ok, leaving my response but reminding myself not to be so reactive myself. Do I get a training cookie now?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Ciscley said:


> -- edited, which after re-reading seems to be exactly what you were saying with "mending the relationship". Ok, leaving my response but reminding myself not to be so reactive myself. Do I get a training cookie now?


click!


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

Jcjshelton said:


> Sorry to steal your thread...but I am confused...
> 
> I thought no dog should grow at the owner, but if growling is a warning and you are trying to train it from not being aggressive toward you, those seem like contradictory statements. My pup sometimes growls at my son when he gently pets her while she is resting/sleeping. I didn't like that at all...what would you suggest that I do? Should I desensitize the pup with treats while my son pets her? But other times, she is very sweet toward my son, so I am not sure what the growling means...is it simply "leave me alone for now", and is that kind of growling acceptable then? Thanks for any advice in advance.


Technically "aggressive " is behavior with intent to do harm. As in dog goes out of its way to cause injury. Most dogs are "reactive " in that they over react to things. Things are much bigger deal to them then we think they should be. I agree that when you discipline the growl, you simply remove the warning, dog does not like things any more than before, they have simply learned it is "unsafe "to growl around you. So when we (humans) ignore their obvious signals (subtle dog body language), they skip the growl and go right to bite. 
Dogs that are insecure need a lot of structure, exercise, and information. Confidence building exercises like training with clicker work wonders. 

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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

We had our spoo Billy from his breeder when he was 8 months old,and for the first few weeks he would growl very softly at my husband. He had not been used to men at all,lived only with two ladies and I think he felt very unsure of where he was. His whole environment had changed,he lived with 12 other standard poodles aswell so his life and routines were completely different. We have now had him 3 months. He has really taken to my husband now,and never growls at anything anymore and I think he now feels safe and secure in his home. No dog should be disturbed when it is sleeping. My second standard Harley liked to lay on his own to sleep,and you could stroke his head as you went past but if yo tried to sit and fuss him he would grumble. My friends afghan used to bite when she was disturbed while asleep. It's the old saying I suppose: let sleeping dogs lie!


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

Hmm...largely the reason I love dogs is because of their loyalty and their unconditional love for humans; thats what makes them so special and different than other animals, so if a dog growls or has aggression toward their owners or their children, that doesn't seem right to me. When I think of a good dog, I often picture a dog who gets that the owner is the owner, no matter their age or size. I just don't picture a dog that growls or bares its teeth to the owners as a good loyal companion. I understand maybe some kids can be excessively rough and corner the dog into a fearful predicament, and thus end in aggression or growling, but from a gentle petting? 

My puppy does seem more willful than other dogs I have had in the past. Although she is getting better by the day, the bonding does seem to take longer as well. She is not eager to please. For example, if she doesn't like what I am asking her to do, ie. sit, she will ignore me and walk away, eventhough she very well knows the command. My dogs in the past have all been very eager to please and happy go lucky. They would follow me everywhere I went, and loved everyone they met. I am just not quite sure how to deal/interact with this particular dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think what you are describing JC is a form of Lassie Syndrome - the mythical automatic "good dog". I don't think any relationship just happens, nor should it - trust is earned, as are love and loyalty. If you learn to read a dog's early warning signs - head turned away, yawning, lip lick - he will never need to progress to the more obvious growling or snarling, still less to snapping. But every dog has a threshold, and every dog has the right to protect themselves if they are threatened. The big problems arise when dogs feel threatened by everyday occurrences - by humans, children, vehicles, other dogs - and react accordingly. Our job is to ensure that dogs have the best possible chance of adapting happily to life with us - a responsibility that starts with only buying from breeders who work on stress free pregnancy and appropriate early puppy experiences, and continues with socialising, training and fun until we build a "good dog" and a good relationship. Think of growling as fear or discomfort rather than aggression, and it becomes easier to see what is happening and how to cope with it.

I shall now get off my soap box!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> I* think what you are describing JC is a form of Lassie Syndrome - the mythical automatic "good dog".* I don't think any relationship just happens, nor should it - trust is earned, as are love and loyalty. If you learn to read a dog's early warning signs - head turned away, yawning, lip lick - he will never need to progress to the more obvious growling or snarling, still less to snapping. But every dog has a threshold, and every dog has the right to protect themselves if they are threatened. The big problems arise when dogs feel threatened by everyday occurrences - by humans, children, vehicles, other dogs - and react accordingly. Our job is to ensure that dogs have the best possible chance of adapting happily to life with us - a responsibility that starts with only buying from breeders who work on stress free pregnancy and appropriate early puppy experiences, and continues with socialising, training and fun until we build a "good dog" and a good relationship. Think of growling as fear or discomfort rather than aggression, and it becomes easier to see what is happening and how to cope with it.
> 
> I shall now get off my soap box!


hehe - totally off topic, but I think that I have to report my self for having "Reverse, Racial Profiling Lassie Syndrome" - my black poodles were EXACTLY like real life Lassies!


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol...I want an automatic Lassie...! Jk

That makes a lot of sense, fmj. That's what I love about PF, people are so smart and willing to share their thoughts, and sometimes thats exactly what I need, is to have people to talk some sense into me!


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