# Particular Poodle Coat Color=Particular Personality??



## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I was just wondering why people think that a certain coat type on a poodle makes their personality any different?? Or even why a certain coat color makes a dog "better" or "worse"?? 
I spoke to someone who "doesn't like phantoms".... this person had no specific explanation as to why the phantom coat makes the dog different then any other coat of poodle... 
I understand preferences but I think a poodle is a poodle.... poodle lovers should love them all!!!
Views??


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Broken colors, partis, and that includes phantoms are not accepted in UKC, CKC, AKC. That makes them "worse". Not showable, and not supposed to be bred. But people that don't care about breed standards will breed them anyway, call them "rare colors" and try to make money off of it. It a breeder is unethical in one way, then you can expect that color is not the only fault in their dogs.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

She does NOT have any phantoms, partis or broken colors that she breeds. Any phantoms that she gets in a litter (they pop up every once in a while) she sells these colorations on a pet, spay and neuter contract. You are also not allowed to show altered dogs.... so your saying no one should have their dog spayed or neutered either??
It wasn't that long ago when chocolate Labrador retrievers were culled in a litter.... viewed as genetically defective; I'm pretty SURE they are now SHOWN in the CKC, AKC and UKC.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Oh my...there are several reputable parti breeders that participate here. I would consider a parti from them in a heartbeat. And I have to say, that the very best poodle I have ever owned is a parti (avatar) and I have owned many poodles in all sizes throughout my life.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

LOL... L&J. I was just about to quote you on your hilarity with the popcorn... and then you edited your response! :aetsch:

Perhaps someone could clarify what is considered to be a broken colour? I thought I read on this forum that someone was alluding to the fact that even poodles that are solid coloured but has a patch of white on their chest (like my girl Finley) are not acceptable show standards by the various kennel clubs... is that correct?


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

cdnchick said:


> LOL... L&J. I was just about to quote you on your hilarity with the popcorn... and then you edited your response! :aetsch:
> 
> Perhaps someone could clarify what is considered to be a broken colour? I thought I read on this forum that someone was alluding to the fact that even poodles that are solid coloured but has a patch of white on their chest (like my girl Finley) are not acceptable show standards by the various kennel clubs... is that correct?


lol - I didn't want to come off as being flip 

I will share my popcorn with you though op:


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Lilah+Jasper said:


> I will share my popcorn with you though op:


Well, thank you kindly!

On the original topic at hand... partis are really unique looking poodles. Truth be told, I have yet to see an adult one in person but Finley's litter three partis in it and they were really cute with their patchy faces. I think one was named Oreo!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Poodlepup1 said:


> She does NOT have any phantoms, partis or broken colors that she breeds. Any phantoms that she gets in a litter (they pop up every once in a while) she sells these colorations on a pet, spay and neuter contract. You are also not allowed to show altered dogs.... so your saying no one should have their dog spayed or neutered either??
> It wasn't that long ago when chocolate Labrador retrievers were culled in a litter.... viewed as genetically defective; I'm pretty SURE they are now SHOWN in the CKC, AKC and UKC.


Don't get your panties in a wad.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Thankfully I don't wear panties....  
Back to the original topic. I'm sure there are many breeders that take advantage of unique colorations-- pawning them off as "rare" or "unique", then make profit off of their exploitive advertising....
Many breeders (including mine), DO NOT do this. DON'T generalize.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

cdnchick--- it's true that even a little white spot can mean a poodle can't be shown (in the CKC anyway). This doesn't mean they can't be registered it simply means they can't be competitively shown. 
Luckily I just wanted a pet. A buddy! Lol I don't need to show him. He does come from champion parents and grandparents though so his conformation is almost perfect! 
I get him on Friday and I'm VERY excited!


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Don't get your panties in a wad.


Would love to have nothing about panties in posts, rarely leads to a place of respectful conversation.

I don't have any proper dogs I guess, having two parti standards and a mini silver beige. Bummer.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

spoowhisperer-- I apologize for engaging tortoise... I think it would be best if I ignore him unless he has some educational information to post. 
Coloration doesn't really matter unless you are showing at a professional level. You can still do everything else! All the fun stuff-- agility, flyball. I've actually been thinking of flyball if my puppy is ball crazy enough!


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

@tortoise

You may want to check out the Poodle Rainbow's "Phantom, Parti, Blue and other color thread." It has over 4,600 views. Seems like a lot of people think these coat colors/patterns are interesting!

http://www.poodleforum.com/36-poodle-rainbow/15860-phantom-parti-blue-other-color-thread.html


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

tortoise said:


> Broken colors, partis, and that includes phantoms are not accepted in UKC, CKC, AKC. That makes them "worse". Not showable, and not supposed to be bred. But people that don't care about breed standards will breed them anyway, call them "rare colors" and try to make money off of it. It a breeder is unethical in one way, then you can expect that color is not the only fault in their dogs.


Hear, hear. This in my opinion is a fantastic post. Thank you Tortoise!


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

My poor specimen is a deficient brindle, so I wonder why wherever we go people cross the road and stop their cars to come see him and exclaim about how beautiful he is. He is what he is, he's a pet, he's a lovely purebred poodle from health tested parents. All 6 pups in his litter (2 blue/white partis and 4 brindles) found loving homes in no time flat.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Rayah-- I guess I have to repeat myself again.... this breeder is not purposefully breeding for this coloration. Any pups that come out this color she homes as a pet-- SPAY/NEUTER CONTRACT. You can have QUALITY with unique coloration.
This narrow minded view is very irritating-- like not too many decades ago when Chocolate labs were considered undesirable and now they are the MOST desirable.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Siskojan-- your poodle is GORGEOUS. So sad that he doesn't fit breed standards (Pshhh whatever)


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Human brains respond to something unusual or novel with a little spike of endorphins. Weird things make us feel good. That means the cat with a ble and a green eye, the puppy with a white spot on it's nose, and mismarked or off-color dogs. 

People respond to unusual dogs because of their involuntary internal reaction. Unfortunately this is why some "cute" mixed breeds are bred - because it makes the owner _feel_ good.

Breed standards exist to have an objective and unwavering definition of what the breed means. If you don't like it, go get the breed standard rewritten.

I have nothing against the parti dogs that already exist or the people that own them. But a parti- breeder is no better than a doodle breeder - intentionally breeding the incorrect because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy inside.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I could have been a very responsible spoo owner, but I followed "color breeding" and recommendations by the breeder who I found online.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

The thing is that the standards DO change over time. They add stipulations to the breed standard all the time!! I gave a perfectly good example-- chocolate lab, which you don't seem to want to acknowledge. 
"weird things make us feel good"... Lol that was very... insightful.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I never went out looking for a "parti" or a "phantom" or a "brindle". I was looking for a poodle. I found a poodle. A registered, health guaranteed (lifetime), temperament guaranteed (lifetime), adorable POODLE puppy at a phenomenal price. 
His coat type won't effect his personality, health, intelligence or overall quality as a pet and companion. That's what SHOULD matter but evidently what isn't particularly important to the registries.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Perhaps, registries should require some sort of "standards." I looked for AKC registration.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Chocolate labs aren't truly accepted in the lab community, at least not the field trialing people. There's strong belief that a chocolate cannot work as weel as yellow or black. I'm not completely up to date, but I think it is true that only one chocolate has made it to the top of field trials? (Baraccuda Blue). I trained 2 service dogs off this bloodline. Good dogs. 

Breeds standards do change, with the example of the diluted poodle colors like silver.

Dogs won't improve until people stop breeding substandard. My fiance is a vet and did his undergrad work in agronomy (genetics). He is even more uptight about this than I am. Rabbits are pretty stinking awesome. Because rabbit breeders breed for correct everything. A rabbit breeder will kill a doe that produces fewer than 8 kits in a litter (for larger breed). They'll kill a rabbit if it produces a kit with 1 toenail the wrong color. Because it is socially acceptable to eat rabbit, they can cull heavily and produce very strong bloodlines and correct rabbits. Clearly we can't kill off breeding dogs. But we can "cull" by neutering. 

CH Hillani Frea Aaron of Silver, is an example of a sire that probably should not be bred again. He's a gorgeous dog, good temperament. But he can produce parti-colored pups. Maybe not in the panda bear sense, but my puppy has white spots (thankfully hidden between his toes). My fiance is completely adamant that he should not be bred because he can produce puppies with umbilical hernias. And by adamant, I mean brought to anger.

If a dog has the possibility of passing on a disqualifying trait, the dog should not be bred. I do not think it is acceptable to simply "pet out" the puppies that don't fit standard. 

The longer these breeding practices go on, the worse our dogs will get. We can lose the genes of the desirable traits. The "but MY dog is ...." is frustrating, it's moot. It doesn't make any sense. "It's OK to breed indesirable, disqualifying traits because I love my dog" WTH? It's the same logic that backyard breeders and doodle breeds often use.

Why bother having a breed standard... or a breed. 'Cause it doesn't matter to you. Then what's so bad about a doodle. You reject the purebred and you reject the mixed breed. Got it.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

...so parti poodles should be eaten? my panties are confused.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

spoowhisperer said:


> Would love to have nothing about panties in posts, rarely leads to a place of respectful conversation.
> 
> I don't have any proper dogs I guess, having two parti standards and a mini silver beige. Bummer.


I am crazy about your improper dogs and would take any and all of them in a heart beat!!!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

FunkyPuppy said:


> ...so parti poodles should be eaten? my panties are confused.


What is the object of having a defined breed, when the breed definition is not followed?


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

The UKC accepts multi colored(parti etc.) poodles...


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

tortoise said:


> What is the object of having a defined breed, when the breed definition is not followed?


Perhaps it's time for the breed definition to change. 

What's the point of having a breed definition that suits the esthetic "artificial constructs of human fancy, instead of the evolutionary outcome of natural selection"? (as quoted from the following journal article in the Canadian Veterinary Journal):

A new direction for kennel club regulations and breed standards

Direct quote from the above article:

"For example, current CKC Breed Standards do not represent the complete, holistic definition of the canine breed that was previously mentioned, and the CKC continues to sanction the evolution of purebreds that are caricatures of the original breeds. The CKC states that breeders should “select breeding stock that conforms to the approved CKC Breed Standard to the highest possible degree,” but these standards consist of exhaustive guidelines that detail the esthetic requirements of each breed (7). The American Kennel Club (AKC) advocates the “advance[ment] of canine health and well-being,” but AKC Breed Standards also overemphasize typology, which is not conducive to advancing canine health (14). These ongoing attempts to create the ultimate canine conformation, with continually elevated ideals, are precisely what result in detrimentally exaggerated physiques and diseased animals."

Really? This is the breed definition and standard to which breeders should adhere?

Until breeding definitions change, I, for one, will be proud to own poodles (or any other purebred dog) that does NOT conform to the esthetic requirements of any Kennel Club regulation.


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> I am crazy about your improper dogs and would take any and all of them in a heart beat!!!


Ahh, you gave me a big smile...thank you!


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

tortoise said:


> What is the object of having a defined breed, when the breed definition is not followed?


Sorry, I do not remember how long you've been a member here. I have been a bit sporadict popping in here, so on my part, welcome! You've got yourself a nice looking silver! 

You seem like a very passionate person, with some very good thoughts. I appreciate that passion, and while I respectfully do not necessarily agree all that you say, nor the manner in which you are speaking, I would rather know you are passionate about proper breeding versus pro backyard breeding. So this is good.

However, you should know, and need to know, there are many good breeders here who are just as passionate about the breed, and desire to better lines. And yes, some of those are parti breeders, or red breeders. They admit they have a bit of a up hill climb in their breeding program, and also admit when an issue in one of their dogs comes up as any good breeder would.

We all come here to _get_ good information, or to _share_ good information, and sometimes share photos and goofy stuff about our dogs in our lives. Be part of us in good conversation, or yes sometimes a debate! But be respectful, and don't assume no one here is knowledgable. MANY of us have partis or interesting (beautiful) coat colors here on this forum. We all want healthy dogs.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Breed standards are important, but I think it's wise to remember that they were not handed down to us on stone tablets. Sometimes they can even become counterproductive. I've read articles about how concentrating on breeding "to the standard" for the conformation ring is sacrificing the athletic body structure that makes (made?) poodles successful retrievers. And in the case of bulldogs, well, let's just say the "standard" is not doing anyone -- dog or owner -- any favors.

Can the bulldog be saved?


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

I think partis and phantoms are beautiful. Of the solid colorations the black, blue and reds are my favorite. As long as the animal is healthy and well balanced temperamentally THAT'S what matters! I think if you are able to see multiple generations of your puppies family, you can ascertain how healthy your puppy will be. I was able to do this with my pup!


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

Didn't the Lassie type of collies almost get their brains bred out of them because the narrow pointed head was so desired. I believe historical poodles were parti-colored and that got bred out of them for vanity when the french aristocracy got involved - it didn't look nice with the poofy haircuts. A little diversity in the gene pool bodes well for survival.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I think breed standards are important. I do think there is value in an old standard to keep people from swaying too far afield, but the issue is people don't necessarily follow the standards. Fashion overides and often wins. 

I don't think color should be an issue at all. I have no trouble with partis or other nonstandard colors or patterns. Color has zip to do with form or function. Take the whippet as an example. Color is immaterial in their standard and never to be taken into account in conformation competitions. Because of that we have all sorts of lovely colors and patterns with none of them any healthier than any other color and all the colors somewhat similar in conformation. Whippets come is all colors and all patterns, solid and brindle. With poodles, the newer colors have been less healthy or don't have as good of conformation because of the desire by breeders of classic colors to stay away from the other colors. My dog has been called 'the wrong color', only partially in jest and apricot has been around a long time.

As to the original question: I haven't noticed any difference in the personalities of poodles based on colors. I have noticed a difference in personalities based on the breeding lines.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I always considered color to be one of the least imposrtant things. I do have my favorite colors and patterns, but I also think that should be the very last consideration for choosing or breeding any animal. 

Maybe I'm all kinds of wrong, but that was one of the things that turned me off showing Aussies years ago. (color was more important than working ability and temperment, at least it was with the breeders I was trying to learn from and work with).


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

When I was talking to Carley's breeder about buying her. I had already said I would take her, before I asked about her color... I will admit had she had a red nose I would have regreted that. lol I was much more interested in other things, her personality, health ect. I knew she would be beautiful, she was a showdog person's breeding bitch so that was a given.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

outwest said:


> As to the original question: I haven't noticed any difference in the personalities of poodles based on colors. I have noticed a difference in personalities based on the breeding lines.


Hair color/type and temperament are not related. There was a study on it years ago with mixing 2 (unnamed) breeds, a short haird breed that is know for liking water and a long hair breed known for dislike of water. There was no relationship in the offspring between like/dislike of water and coat type. A little redundant because this is explained by a fundamental law of genetics. The Law of Independent Assortment? I think? Some of the others that have been through science courses might correct me.

To a different poster - yup, I will be on sporatically. I have a chronic illness that limits my abilities. I'm not popping in sporatically out of disrespect or trolling. Yeah, I am passionate about a couple of things, it is based in my experiences working in the pet care industry for 12 years. But we all throw out opinions and viewpoints, and that is a good thing when we all start thinking about other points of view. It might confirm what we already believe or lead us to question ourselves.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

LEUllman said:


> Breed standards are important, but I think it's wise to remember that they were not handed down to us on stone tablets. Sometimes they can even become counterproductive. I've read articles about how concentrating on breeding "to the standard" for the conformation ring is sacrificing the athletic body structure that makes (made?) poodles successful retrievers. And in the case of bulldogs, well, let's just say the "standard" is not doing anyone -- dog or owner -- any favors.
> 
> Can the bulldog be saved?


There are plenty of breed standards I feel strongly are not good for the dogs. I don't care for these breeds and certainly will not own one. I know there are some "natural birthing" lines of pugs, boston terriers, and bulldogs, but the structure of these dogs is a problem for me. It's very sad to see a dog strugglig to breathe. These are one case where I do support outcrossing (breeding to another breed), like the puggle. Another example of outcrossing that benefits the dog is the natural docked boxer tail. It was developed in partnership with AKC in a country with a crop/dock ban. The project waas successful and the dogs were given AKC limited registration.

My personal most dislike of the breed standard is the original (ancient) breed standard for the pekinese. A rough translation "the legs shall be bowed so the dog does not want to run away". Ouch! Really? You're going to breed a dog to live in chronic pain so that it doesn't wander off? The AKC standard states the dog should have "moderately bowed" front legs, thankfully limiting the debatable trait.

In the boxer example, AKC was willing to register mixed breed dogs in effort to improve the breed and keep the dogs conforming to the breed standard even crap/dock ban countries. A reputable breeder with valid reason is going to work with the registries and and breed club to get the breed standard changed.

Are breed standard perfect? No. Is show ring judging always correct? No. Everyone has to work together to keep the breed going. The new color breeders have to get their dogs conformationally correct so they are respected and accepted in the show ring. If new colors are not showing well, it's unlikely that any new-new colors will be accepted.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I don't object to colored poodles. I mean to say that perhaps registries should have "breeder standards" to be able to register their puppies.


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

tortoise said:


> Are breed standard perfect? No. Is show ring judging always correct? No. Everyone has to work together to keep the breed going. *The new color breeders have to get their dogs conformationally correct so they are respected and accepted in the show ring. If new colors are not showing well, it's unlikely that any new-new colors will be accepted*.


Again, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, it seems you're still mainly of a mentality to adhere to standards that are largely esthetic in nature and not necessarily for the function of a dog (because that is what is represented in the breeding standard). 

If the conformation of a dog cripples the physical structure in some way or for example, as someone pointed out in an earlier post, that the standards for poodles are detracting from their original purpose of being a retriever dog, then why should "new colour" breeders strive to get their dogs conformationally correct?

Why is the breed standard based on what shows best in the ring? 

This is akin to saying that the standards that are established for child beauty pageants should apply to all children regardless of whether they are contestants in the pageant.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

Standards of perfection were developed strictly to allow form to follow function. To understand them you have to look past the fads that may have changed the standard, and to the function of the dog.

Does color effect the hunting and retrieving ability of the historical poodle? No. Does it affect the sheep herding ability of a border collie? YES! Because sheep don't respect dogs with too much white on them. 

Originally poodles came in a myriad of colors. Fads through the years before registration with the AKC made some of those colors unpopular. They were left out of the standard.

As for rabbits, I used to show rabbits. Some rabbit breeds are great, some are not. Saying all of them are, is a gross exaggeration. For a breed that has major structural problems look at Harlequins, or English Angoras. In addition changes to the standards happen there too for different reasons. The breed I used to have has a rewritten standard under which my grand champions wouldn't be able to win. Breeders there were no more honest than dog breeders either. The rabbits with dark toenails at the breeders may still produce white nails or spots when bred at another breeder's home (even though they 'never' did it at home). Furthermore, ARBA is distinctly different and pedigrees are distinctly different than dogs. Breeders handle the pedigrees, and I often saw them faked. The adult rabbit can be registered with the ARBA after it's deemed to fit the standard. Cross breeding can and does happen, you only need 3 generations of purebreds. You can not compare this to the AKC, or purebred dogs. Crossbreeding has happened there too under the table, (one example rumor has it is the collie, which many think was crossed with a borzoi to make them more elegant, and change the head). But the AKC is a keeper of pedigrees. Standards belong to the breed club, which is a political mess of whatever is winning and whoever is in control. 

There is no harm in breeding dogs who mentally and structurally conform to a non-AKC approved standard. The point is, why are you breeding them? If you have a purpose to the action, go for it! I love poodles of different colors providing that they have the structure and the temperament/working ability poodles should have. And I would take one of those any day over an accepted color who can't hunt, doesn't retrieve, or what have you.

Oh, and I LOVE hearing about people who haven't bred throwing out every single dog because it's produced this, or has this fault. Throw out the male who produces an umbilical hernia, breed the other one who doesn't, and 10 years from now find out the one you thought was fine is producing epilepsy or addisons disease. Except now you have thrown out the other line for a small fault, and have nowhere to go. Welcome to breeding. It's all a gray area, and there are no absolutes.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

*Partis*



cdnchick said:


> Well, thank you kindly!
> 
> On the original topic at hand... partis are really unique looking poodles. Truth be told, I have yet to see an adult one in person but Finley's litter three partis in it and they were really cute with their patchy faces. I think one was named Oreo!


There is a beautiful 7 month old spoo, parti chocolate and white, named Walter down the block. He is ALSO the largest young spoo I have ever seen. I think he is nearing 70 pounds already; his head is HUGE -- guess the breeder is in southern Illinois or something. He is so handsome, but I keep thinking it's not all just poodle, tho he said it is. Head wider and nose wider if you know what I mean. He will be a very big boy, but the coloring is gorgeous.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

A good breeder will breed for health, temperament, and conformation-- the coat color (which does not effect the dog in any way) is just a bonus!! 
I'm defensive of my breeder because everything I've mentioned is what she is breeding for. Although she is attempting to stay within the registries guidelines concerning coloration. She is very ethical and very concerned about her breed as a WHOLE. Not just primarily the color of the animals coat. 
When she gets the odd "phantom" out of her litters, she does not keep breeding them to get more phantoms.


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## Poodlepup1 (Feb 11, 2012)

Hey guys... Finally figured out how to display an avatar picture- he's a "phantom" but his marking are VERY faint and may not be seen until he's an adult! I just displayed him as a "black" lol


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