# Ian Dunbar seminar and workshop



## patk

looking forward to more. the emergency sit or down is not something i ever trained my dog to do, but afaik it is urged upon people by good trainers. years ago the one trainer i went to had us do the recall exercise with our dogs behind a building where they couldn't see us. she said most dogs would not come when called in that situation. turned out to be true. the only two that came charging out were my dog and the dog belonging to another woman in the class - and i would categorize both dogs as somewhat introverted or timid. problem is, our trainer did not know offer any tips for those whose dogs did not respond to the command.


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## lily cd re

I really agree with him about the emergency sit (or down) and will be working on making sure sit means exactly that!


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## Minnie

Thank you so much for sharing this info!!!! I will be following this thread closely


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## Theo'sMom

Great info!!! But how can you train to sit if you're lying down, or on the other side of the room, or facing the wall? I'm going to practice this.


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> Ian (and no we aren't best buddies now (I wish), he just made it very clear that is how he wanted to be addressed) thinks a sit is the best emergency command you can give a dog that is about to get into trouble. If your dog really knows sit means your butt hits the ground instantly and always and stays there until I tell you to do something else when the dog is running away and it sits based only on hearing the word (not seeing a signal along with the word) it isn't moving at all now and you will be able to approach and control.



This is a great one, I always loved it..... years ago (before I came to the UK) I had a Tervueren and I used to train him for IPO trials..... we trained the "Send out" command so most dogs would go down pretty much whenever the word was called out (by their owners) no matter how far they were from us...... 

We pretty much used down as our emergency command  makes the same sense as the "sit" ..... the dog stays in one place and you can then control the situation


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## lily cd re

Theo'sMom said:


> Great info!!! But how can you train to sit if you're lying down, or on the other side of the room, or facing the wall? I'm going to practice this.


For behind you you can peak into a mirror or for any oddball positioning use a training partner, like Ian standing behind me with Lily in between us.


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## lily cd re

Wild Kitten said:


> This is a great one, I always loved it..... years ago (before I came to the UK) I had a Tervueren and I used to train him for IPO trials..... we trained the "Send out" command so most dogs would go down pretty much whenever the word was called out (by their owners) no matter how far they were from us......
> 
> We pretty much used down as our emergency command  makes the same sense as the "sit" ..... the dog stays in one place and you can then control the situation


I think the emergency command could be either sit or down as long as you know it is extremely reliable. I would be much happier putting my dog on a stay than trying to recall across a road.

It sounds like when you did IPO with your terv you could train "go out" as a real go away from me until I tell you otherwise. Here most everyone I know trains inside or in their yard (barely matters for this command I think). For most of us we really train go to the other side of the ring, rather than go away until I order something else (like turn and sit for us in utility to set up for the directed jumping).


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## lily cd re

*Today's Ian tidbit*

*You can and should take your puppy to puppy class before it has had all of its shots.* There are recent studies that show puppies are not at elevated risk of contracting parvo or other infectious diseases from going to puppy class before being fully immunized. 

The benefits of early socialization (many places, people other puppies before twelve weeks of age) far outweigh the risks of not doing the socialization for the puppy. Ian attributes most rehoming and euthanasia to problems that could have been avoided by good early social experiences. Puppies learn bite inhibition better (faster and more reliably) from other puppies with needle teeth. Taking puppies to class and all sorts of places (we carried Lily and Peeves in pet stores before they finished their vaccines) and having them meet and greet all kinds of people also means they won't have fears of kids, men with beards, old ladies with funny hats or any other kind of person who will show up in their lives later on.

Here is a link to Ian's blog at dog star daily that describes the research mentioned above. Puppy Classes And Canine Parvovirus | Dog Star Daily


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> I think the emergency command could be either sit or down as long as you know it is extremely reliable. I would be much happier putting my dog on a stay than trying to recall across a road.
> 
> It sounds like when you did IPO with your terv you could train "go out" as a real go away from me until I tell you otherwise. Here most everyone I know trains inside or in their yard (barely matters for this command I think). For most of us we really train go to the other side of the ring, rather than go away until I order something else (like turn and sit for us in utility to set up for the directed jumping).


Yeah we didn't really have "emergency" in mind when we were training the "go out" command ........... but since all dog's "down" was pretty reliable by the time you could start using/teaching the "go out", you could just use it for emergencies too. I have used it on several occasions and I know many others did too when they needed it..... even when the dog was so "into" something he/she was doing (like chasing) that they turned a "deaf ear" to a recall...... they always did the down  
We had a huge enclosed outside training place at the time but once the dogs knew the command, we practiced in other safe opened spaces/fields too.


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## lily cd re

*Tidbit Number 3 from Dr. Dunbar*

This will surprise many of you since it will be advise from Dr. Dunbar on how to use an aversive training tool properly. *Disclaimer:* _He doesn't advocate using aversives, but thinks there is a humane way to do so if all else fails._

Let's suppose you have tried everything you can think of to get your dog to stop pulling on leash and now are considering a gentle leader or halti head collar or the dreaded pinch collar. Go on Amazon and order the tool. Take it out of the box and put it on the dog every day for two weeks without using it. Hook your leash to the dog's regular collar. Go through whatever you go through. Don't use it to correct the dog though. After the dog is used to wearing the new tool (and yes he listed a "gentle" leader as an aversive all you positive only, use a gentle leader types) put it on and put on a new flat buckle collar onto which you have rubbed something smelly (mink oil was suggested). Now hook up both the gentle leader (or other tool) and the new smelly collar. Let the new tool correct away and let your dog think that mink oil scented new collar is what made it happen. Otherwise you will need your gentle leader (or pinch collar or shock collar or whatever) forever! This is how I refined my heeling with Lily using a pinch collar. She wore it without it being hooked up before I attached it to the leash. It made it easy to dissociate the behavior I was looking for from the tool. Now the tool is not necessary.


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## lily cd re

*Yet another Ian Dunbar tip*

Today's topic will be housebreaking. You want 100% success with this process needless to say so here is potty training "a la" Ian. You will set up a short term confinement area (crate) within a long term confinement area (exercise pen) with the ex pen arranged to be long and narrow. The crate will be the pup's bedroom and set up at one end of the ex pen. You will confine the puppy there with the door latched when you are not home or not able to supervise (e.g. you are asleep for the night). When you are not directly interacting with the puppy or not at home you will leave the puppy with access to the entire ex pen. At the far end of the ex pen away from the crate you will have a plastic try with a piece of sod in it. This is the puppy's indoor potty. She the puppy that is what it is for by putting them onto the grass at times you know they will be likely to go quickly and praise them for using it. Clean up poo, but don't worry about the pee as the scent of it will tell them it is the potty. This will teach them to use grass as their preferred potty substrate.

The middle area of the ex pen will be the play area. I will talk about what to have there tomorrow, so be sure to tune in.


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## lily cd re

*The middle section of your long term puppy confinement area*

So you now have a potty area at one end of your rectangular ex pen and a crate as a bedroom at the other, what is your puppy to do in the middle section? This is the play area. You should provide an interesting chew toy or two here. Tie them to the bars of the ex pen so they can't get dragged to the potty area. Use something natural like sisal or hemp in case the puppy decides the string is more interesting than the toy. But make sure the toy is really the best thing there by making it a kong or something like it that can be a food dispenser. Put a portion of the puppy's daily ration in the toy so that chewing becomes self rewarding. This will help your pup grow into a dog that will always look for its chew toys in preference to chewing on your furniture. You can provide water in the play area too, just make sure it isn't going to get spilled all over.

Tomorrow's installment will talk about what to do with the portion of pup's food that doesn't make it into the chew toy. Partial spoiler alert, it doesn't end up in a bowl.


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## lily cd re

Don't put your puppies food in a bowl. Dr. Dunbar would make the case that dumping food in a bowl is a wasted training opportunity (especially for puppies). You should take a generous portion of the pup's daily kibble ration and use it as the training food for lure reward training of essential behaviors like sit, down, come, etc. In addition to not overloading your puppy with "empty calories" by feeding part of the puppy's regular food this way you increase the puppy's centripetal attraction for you. In other words you become the most interesting and important thing in your puppy's life when food miraculously flies from your hands along with the lovely words "good puppy."

For the remainder of your puppy's kibble stuff it into a kong or other similar chew toy. Make it easy for the kibble to fall out at first. You want the puppy to think it is really cool that playing with this toy makes food appear. As they get the concept that chewing the kong makes food appear you can (and should) make it harder for the food to come out. You can make a couple of days worth of stuffed kongs in advance by mixing the kibble into something like peanut butter or yogurt or (as someone else here on PF, sorry I forget who) a mix of yogurt and peanut butter. Stuff that mix into the toy and freeze it. Your puppy or older dog will get lots of pleasure out of getting that yummy mix and won't be chewing your shoes, furniture or walls. As Ian describes it your dog will be a chew toy-aholic for life. Some addictions are good!


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## lily cd re

As I recently said elsewhere I don't want to be the focus of hijacking someone else's thread, so I will hijack my own.

Even Ian Dunbar is willing to listen openly to and discuss points of common values and to openly and politely discuss areas of disagreement with Cesar Milan. He has seen enough merit in his shared values and perspectives to have contributed thoughtfully to Cesar's most recent book.

It is too bad that some people here don't seem to see the graciousness in doing so. Instead if someone disagrees with the apparent only correct way to train a dog believed in and adhered to like old time religion by some folks here, drum beaters come out of the ether to brow beat the heretics into agreeing with them. I suppose the real goal is to make people like me go away with my tail between my legs thinking I am a bad person and being made to feel as though I should give my unhappy dogs up to rescuers. Oh but then there are the folks who beat on a member who very selflessly re-homed dogs and was told she shouldn't rescue in the future because she clearly wasn't up to the task. I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that we all will ever agree on everything. All and everything are dangerously dogmatic words.

One of the people who has taken digs at me on more than one occasion keeps claiming great expertise, but hasn't ever provided evidence of her qualifications. I haven't openly advertised my expertise repeatedly here, but I will now so you all can decide for yourselves whether I am worth paying attention to. If you think my credentials don't provide evidence that I might have something meaningful to say then put me on your ignore list. I have a Ph.D. in immunology, microbiology and pathology from Cornell University. I have been a college professor for nearly 27 years. My thinking is scientific, open, questioning and willing to change based on clear evidence. My teaching has been awarded by the SUNY Chancellor and multiple times by various national organizations. I teach effectively and I make effective learners out of my students some of whom have gone on to earn their own Ph.D., MD, DVM, DDS and JD degrees. In other words I know a thing or two about learning theory. I know full well it is naive to ignore half of the quadrants of learning. Sometimes a student needs a little figurative kick in the pants to realize their full potential. More than a few of my students have thanked me for giving it to them.

I hope to retire from college teaching sometime soon to become a full time private dog trainer. If I were younger I would be working on another graduate degree to have a certification as a behaviorist to support this plan. Instead I am working towards being able to certify as CPDT-KA. I am already a member of the APDT. I attend many seminars on training theory and practice, including several Ian Dunbar lectures and workshops (science based dog training, cutting edge and crucial concepts in training, sirius puppy training, fun and games workshops). I also have attended agility seminars with Leslie McDevitt and Dianne Bauman. I teach classes at my obedience club as a fill in instructor. I regularly serve as a steward at obedience, rally and agility events. I have been a match show judge for obedience and rally more times than I can count, including an A match that got one of the clubs I belong to certified to offer AKC obedience and rally trials. Our first one is this weekend and I am the lead steward.

My sweet beautiful Lily and I have earned ten obedience and rally titles in AKC and other venues along with a respectable number of agility titles. She became an RAE4 at PCA this year. For those of you unfamiliar with rally, this means that we have double qualified in rally advanced and excellent in the same trial forty times (ten times for each level of RAE). In reaching this accomplishment we have only NQd three times. I think a batting average based on 40 home runs for 43 at bats would make anyone very happy.

So if you still think I have nothing to offer put me on your ignore list. if you do so I am sad for your close mindedness. Others here at PF have suggested that only certain opinions count or are to be agreed with. I have disagreed with one or two people here and been able to talk things through with them to reach an understanding where I think we know we will agree to disagree about some things, but also recognize that we have more common views than differences of opinion. Ironically the people who are most vituperative in articulating that theirs is the only correct view and that they alone are on the moral high ground are the most dogmatic close minded and anti-scientific people I've seen here (or for that matter almost anywhere). One or two of you are just down right mean. I really suggest that if you think I am talking about you, you should take a long hard look at yourself and your words in a mirror. I personally like who I see when I look in my mirror and like myself even more when I see myself reflected in the joy on my dear smart dog's brilliant face. Don't expect an answer from me, I will be ignoring you.


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## Wild Kitten

lily cd re said:


> As I recently said elsewhere I don't want to be the focus of hijacking someone else's thread, so I will hijack my own.


You know... instead of hijacking your own topic, you could have just created a new one...... this topic *so far* was GREAT, it was (meant to be) about Ian Dunbar seminar and workshop and not to pick fights and arguments or badmouth other members...... 

Shame...


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## Countryboy

It's fairly important to some of us, WW. This same group has been attacking in petty little ways and forcing people out of the group for some years.

It's waaaay good to hear someone speak up about it.


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## Wild Kitten

Never said it was not important (to some), but why sidetrack a perfectly good topic that has nothing to do with anything? It could have been done in a new topic..... 

BTW...... my user name is Wild Kitten now WW 

So far it seems to me that the ones that promote positive non pain inducing training are being run out of here. 


Now I said my piece.... I'm out.


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## Countryboy

U haven't been around long enuf to see this pattern repeated... over and over.
Attacks on Lily CD and Carly's Mom are simply a continuation of the nastiness that new members who will explore all aspects of dog training have been repeatedly subjected to. It seems u've jumped in with a will on the side of the attackers.

That's disappointing...


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## Wild Kitten

I know I said I was done, but I got to point this out....... this "you haven't been here long" thing is getting kind of old. 
I can read ya know........ and I do read old topics too. 
Also, I have been reading this forum way longer than I was an actual member. 

So far I haven't seen lily cd re nor Carley's mom attacked.... they are not being attacked personally, noone says nasty things directly about them. 
Some of the harsh techniques they promote have been criticized by others but they personally have not been attacked.............. I can't help if I agree with those who point out that there is no need for harsh methods. 

Having said that, I do respect both lily cd re and Carleys mom for so many other things that they have posted about and done. I actually like them both, even though I don't agree with this one thing. How does that make me an attacker? 

I still maintain, there was no need to ruin a perfectly good topic with this argument. There could have been a new topic created just for this if you feel it's that important.

ok now I'm really done... 

Shame about this topic being sidetracked.


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## patk

Wild Kitten said:


> this topic *so far* was GREAT, it was (meant to be) about Ian Dunbar seminar and workshop and not to pick fights and arguments or badmouth other members.......


must be my poor command of english, but i don't see any badmouthing in stating that one perceives some people as persistently sniping. it's an honest description of one's perception. 



Wild Kitten said:


> So far I haven't seen lily cd re nor Carley's mom attacked.... they are not being attacked personally, noone says nasty things directly about them.
> 
> :lol: the method employed is to throw dirt on them by referring to the techniques they have described using as morally repugnant, among other objective descriptions. it's vilification by innuendo, and everybody knows very well what's going on.
> 
> I still maintain, there was no need to ruin a perfectly good topic with this argument. There could have been a new topic created just for this if you feel it's that important.
> 
> ok now I'm really done...
> 
> Shame about this topic being sidetracked.
> 
> lily cd re did say not to bother to reply.


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## atlflier

It's utterly shameful that Lily cd re feels obliged to submit a resume' in order to receive a smidgeon of civility from those who hold divergent opinions to hers. 

I am hopeful she will continue her installments as my geographical area doesn't afford me the luxury of attending seminars such as this. Though truthfully I couldn't fault her if she chose to avoid ridicule and ended this thread entirely. 

Why on earth the moderators of this site don't offer two distinct sub-forums for subscribers to chose from when it comes to discussions on training modalities in order to prevent this nonsense continues to allude me. One could label them something along the lines of "The Poodle Den," for polite exchange of diametrically opposed ideas, or "Off Leash Mayhem," where you enter at your own peril recognizing it's a free-for-all. Of course a simple rule of engagement would have to be defined for both: you either abide by the constraints or lack thereof for each or you're banned from the board. As it currently stands, any question posed on the topic is likely to start a war between the factions and stymies the learning process for everyone. Sad.


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## patk

don't be shy, atlflier. tell us how you really feel! :female-fighter: :biggrin1:


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## atlflier

patk said:


> don't be shy, atlflier. tell us how you really feel! :female-fighter: :biggrin1:


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## lily cd re

*New Ian Dunbar tip*

Sorry to have been away from this topic. It was final exam week (actually still have two to give on Monday, plus the grading). I also had a funeral for a retired colleague who passed unexpectedly after only recently being diagnosed with cancer.

Today's topic is using food in training.

Dr. Dunbar advocates using food as a lure for teaching a behavior to puppies very limitedly. Let's say you want to teach sit. Show food to the puppy and then raise your hand so puppy looks up to follow the food and sits. Give the food promptly along with praise. Repeat several times (like not more than five) and then use the signal to lure the sit with no food in your hand. If the sit is very fast pull out a couple of treats and give your praise. After a few more trials, lose the food completely. Use just the praise and quick releases to go play or have some other life reward as your major training methodology.

For adult dogs, Ian recommends all or none reward training. Food is only used for the best responses for the behavior ordered, such as super fast sits or lightning speed recalls. Use food for those, but not for slow or sloppy responses. For example if you want a sit at front, no food if the dog sits crooked.

This perspective from Dr. Dunbar is based on his belief that the dog should work for you because of its centripetal attraction for you rather than because you are bribing the dog. Ironically at the workshop there were quite a few people who shoveled food (chicken, cheese hot dogs and such) into their dogs nearly non stop and for no apparent reason. In addition to thinking the use of food in training should be limited, Ian thinks you should just use your dog's kibble for training. I will admit that I have fed a fair amount of cheese and other high calorie greasy stuff to both my dogs while training. I had bought a bag of Zukes minis to use with Lily for the workshop. When we were walking out on Saturday evening I put my gear bag with the treats down on the sidewalk when I stopped to talk to someone. I wasn't paying attention and didn't realize that Lily was having a feast at my feet. I didn't have a chance to replace them to use on Sunday. I used kibble (and really just a tiny bit of it) that day and Lily was happy to get it, but even happier to work with me because it pleases her to do so (yes I am being a bit anthropomorphic here, but so what). So free yourselves of your bait bags (and clickers and any other tool you use as a crutch for yourself or a bribe for your dog) and "train naked." Use your voice and help your dog to understand what you want.


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## Chells_Aura

I love these posts on what you are learning thanks!


I tried the lying down on the ground and telling Chell to 'sit' and she lay down on the ground beside me and looked me in the eye all 'Mommy why you be so crazy?!' it was pretty funny. So then I went and got the camera to see if she'd do it again but nope she Sat properly the 2nd time. 

and I always loved Ian Dunbar's bite inhibition technique... there's one video I saw where he's explaining how you just decrease the pressure that is 'acceptable' until the dog thinks "Wow these humans are really mamby pamby! I have to be very careful with them!" So when we had to remind Chelly of her bite inhibition after the in-laws were here and let her bite harder than we do.... She exactly gave me that look! Just this "Geeze Mom yer such a mamby pamby!" I had to try my hardest not to burst out laughing!


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## lily cd re

Isn't that just a poodle for you though to figure out things so fast that Chell outsmarted you on capturing the wrong behavior for posterity?

I had Lily at a conditioning class last night where we do all sorts of things on air pillows and fit paws peanuts, etc. The name of the place where this class is held is Martial Arfs. Lily already has a yellow belt in Karrufte so we do things with extra challenges with her to try for green. We had two stacks of fit paws discs that were three discs high. She was supposed to get up with front feet on one, back feet on the other then step across to have all four on one stack. Then she was to turn around and reverse the pattern to front feet on one stack, back feet on the other. She go it after three tries and for the other trials I din't even have to tell her what to do!

Poodles are just the best. The guy who owns the center has border collies so he is used to fast smart dogs. He is very impressed by the poodles who come in and there are a number of us (Lily plus 2 other standards and at least 3 different minis).


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## atlflier

Any further installments Lily? I've been away engrossed in McConnell's book at thought to check back in to see if there were any updates. Sorry, some of us have to live vicariously through you and the seminars you can attend. :laugh:

BTW can you recommend any of Dunbar's online videos?


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## Countryboy

Off-to-the-Indy-500 Lily has left us high and dry while she's gone to hob-nob with the elite. 

No more Ian Dunbar 'til next week I guess. :Cry:


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## Chells_Aura

atlflier said:


> Sorry, some of us have to live vicariously through you and the seminars you can attend.



Agreed!


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## kayfabulous6

Love this thread! Thank you for posting the helpful tips you've been learning about at the workshop. I am looking forward to training with Ruby on recalling. It is very important that we work on this and hopefully she will catch on. 

Also, I think it is so awesome that you we awarded by the chancellor! Being a SUNY student myself, I recently had the honor of interviewing students who got her Students' Award of Excellence for my campus newspaper. It sure is a small world!  


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## kayfabulous6

Chells_Aura said:


> Agreed!



Same here! 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## MonicaLin

I really appreciate these posts as well. Looking forward to reading more on this thread.


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## Chagall's mom

Those hungry for more Dr. Dunbar right now to hold them over might visit Dog Star Daily I first learned of him from *fjm* here a few years back. I've been on a steady Dunbar diet ever since! :eating: I too enjoy getting the inside scoop from forum and real life pals who attend his workshops. He seems to be on the talk circuit lately, so hopefully more people will have the chance to hear him.:dog:


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## lily cd re

I brought a computer with me, but I am having a hard time staying on the hotel network tonight. I will be adding more, but probably not for a couple of days.


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## nifty

lily cd re, thank you so much for this thread! Your manner of writing is so clear and easy to understand (it's easy to see that you are a great teacher!). I'll be watching this thread for more!


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## lily cd re

Since CharistmaticMillie posted in another thread about early puppy socialization I will add to her thinking here with some Ian Dunbar wisdom on this subject. Dr. Dunbar has some very interesting (and I am sure to many breeders unusual thoughts) about breeding.

First he thinks that no bitch should be bred before she is three years old. He also thinks dogs should be at least seven and preferably 10 years old before they sire a litter. He feels that true expression of temperament and actual phenotypic expressions of hidden genes can only be revealed by waiting. In terms of the sires he believes that if the dog is not physically sound enough to mate then his genes shouldn't be propagated by artificial insemination. These views are founded in Dr. Dunbar's belief that the best indicator of genetic vigor is longevity. I am sure these ideas are raising eyebrows on many breeders who may be looking at this. I will be interested to hear what you have to say in response.

Another critique that Dr. Dunbar has for breeders is that many do not adequately socialize their pups before sending them to their forever homes. Trillium and Arreau's recent litter being notable exceptions here, as I am sure many of you loved watching those puppies play with each other, Trillium's other dogs and all of the folks who came through her home while the pups were with her will recall. Dr. Dunbar stressed the importance of trying to eliminate various subliminal bite triggers with neonatal handling and socialization by many different people. Breeders should make sure that many different people touch all of the following things as many times as possible before puppies leave their kennel: collars, both ears, tail, all four feet and the privates (or as Ian calls them the goolies). Also puppies should be acclimated to getting hugged, making eye contact with people and be used to having people take away treasured objects (special treats and toys with those things being returned as a reward for willing surrender). He also thinks puppies should be exposed to many different kinds of people: men, women, children; black, brown, white, asian; elderly folks with wheel chairs and walkers; weirdos. People should be aware of how a puppy or dog is physically feeling and should be taught to accept handling even when they are sick (Think about your dog's reputation when you go to the vet. My childhood beagle had a bad one and I was mortified when I took her by myself for the first time and saw the tech make a snarly face at the vet when he was about to start trimming her nails in front of me. They went in the back and I am sure they muzzled her to do the nail clip. My current vet lies on the floor with Peeves and Lily willingly follows him around the hospital.)

Ian thinks puppies should go to their permanent homes earlier rather than later, even as soon as six weeks, but certainly by seven weeks. He thinks breeders should send pups to their new homes with good motivation to chew toys, fully housebroken and with soft mouths.


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## nifty

This is really interesting lily cd re! The breeder of my puppy (Avalon) told me the dam is 4 years old and this is her first litter. I thought that was awesome because obviously her health testing has been pretty thorough (other readers here had already mentioned that Mary has a wonderful reputation and in fact this is why I sought her out when I was finally ready to get my own puppy). The extra benefit of a more mature dog in terms of temperament etc is now looking even more important - and of course longevity. Although 4 years is a bit young for the longevity test, I guess looking at the Dam's and Sire's parents and ancestors can help answer some of those questions?
One thing I am a little concerned about it puppy socialization while still at the breeder. Mary was up front that she has no young children around and socialization may be somewhat limited there to people, although there are plenty of other dogs and other animals (it is a farm). However, she urged me to come back and visit at 5 weeks or as often as I like and I plan to go back at 5 weeks with one of my (adult) sons. I also imagine there will be other prospective owners who will be in and out to visit the farm, meet the puppies and so on - so the socialization may not be as much of a concern as I fear. Ideally, I would like to pick up my puppy slightly before the 8 week mark (June 26), but am unable to do so for other reasons - my daughter is arriving on the 26th with her own dog, who I cared for for a year and considers my home her home, too. My feeling is that it is better to delay bringing the puppy home until the 28th (when daughter and dog have left for a wedding in another state), allow my puppy to become acclimatized to her new home and then introduce her to my daughter and the other dog when they return after a week.


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## lily cd re

nifty we first visited Lily's litter at five weeks. It is a great age to start to see their personalities blossoming. Don't worry about meeting Dr. Dunbar's 100 people goal on the nose. It is something to aim for. Even if you don't get enough children in those first weeks meeting other kinds of people in numbers will make your pup more adaptable to taking in what kids are about later on.


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## Specman

I can attest to early socialization by the breeder being important. We got Max when he was 6 months old and although he is a wonderful dog, he is very shy around strangers and very reactive around other dogs. He was in the breeders house with litter mates and other poodles but I don't think he was socialized well around other people or dogs. The funny thing is that he jumped up on my lap when I first met and was very relaxed in the breeder house.


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## lily cd re

Specman I really appreciate you commenting on your experience in this area. I know you are making quite a tough journey with Max to get him to be comfortable around new people. It is only when people are honest (as you have been in other threads and posts) about their experiences and show the not so bright, cheery sunny side of things that people can really understand why things like socialization, good breeding, ongoing training and the like are more than just good things to check on and do, but vital to the success and happiness of dogs as our loving companions.


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## patk

thanks for sharing dunbar's thoughts on breeding and esp socialization, lily. i have often wondered how people got such great family dogs in the old days. of course there were the mean ones and social misfits, too, just as with humans, but according to today's most commonly held beliefs, the great ones should have been rare indeed, because in fact puppies used to go their new homes at six weeks of age. yet the stories about the wonderful family dog everyone had when they were young abound. so maybe the old ways were not so ignorant and idiotic.

i was also very interested to hear dunbar's views on breeding age, as i certainly have doubts about the desirability of back to back breeding of young dogs that is apparently out there as at least a theory among breeders - possibly vets, too, since i don't know much about its origins. i can only assume that some of that is anthropomorphizing, since among humans younger mothers and fathers are said to have a better chance of producing healthier offspring and, in the case of mothers, surviving childbirth. i wonder if the next scientific study will come along and question some of those conclusions, as well. as a species, we are so prone to sweeping generalizations...


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## lily cd re

How can you be sure that your dog really understands what you are asking for? 

Let's face it our poodles are wildly smart and can learn patterns very easily. For example Lily memorized the order of the open A obedience exercises (heel free, figure 8, drop on recall, retrieve on flat, retrieve over high jump and broad jump) so well that she was getting ready to do the routine without me by the time we finished the title (CDX). Each of those exercises has a bunch of parts so I was pretty impressed (and still rather worried about doing open B) that she didn't just know the exercises but knew the order in which they came. For utility I will be entering the B class so that we don't pattern the order.

Dr. Dunbar has a simple suggestion for helping to make sure that your dog understands simple commands such as sit, down and stand. He would have you randomize the order in which you give those commands in short training sessions. To randomize the order you do need at least three position commands, but you can add more like take a bow or sit pretty to mix things up even more. Use words, then signals if you need to, and ask for sit down sit stand down stand. Next time mix it up stand sit down sit pretty etc. This way the dog can't anticipate the pattern and you will be able to evaluate what the dog really understands. As you become more confident that the dog really understands all of those commands add distance and distractions to make it harder. Ian would say to not use food but instead to release the dog to play or to continue a walk as a life reward for the good execution of the asked for behaviors. Do this over and over in all kinds of situations. In the long run what you will get is a dog that does all of the things you ask for because doing things that make you happy makes him/her happy. In other words doing as asked becomes its own reward (no food, no clickers, no toys needed---just you and your wonderful dog).


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## AluePoodles

I really like this one!! 

My mutt girl Kennedy had me played like a fiddle for quiet awhile. I teach with both vocal and hand signals, and she had "down" and "sit" like it was no bodies business!! Well... I never thought to use different tones of voice and making her go from a down to a sit. We are working on that now, but this is really great advice! Love this thread!


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## lily cd re

*Make Walks into Training Sessions*

Many people complain that they don't have time to train their dogs. I think many of those people think that training means taking an hour to practice sits, downs, etc. But it can be so much simpler.

When you walk your dog(s), which you are doing anyway, right, use the walk to train. Dr. Dunbar suggests that every so often you stop and have your dog do his standard position change routine of sit down sit stand down stand. Don't use food (unless you really really need to at first). Praise the dog for doing all of the things you ask. Then give a happy "let's go" and resume the walk. The walk becomes the reward for the behavior. This strongly reinforces the dog's understanding that life rewards such as walks and play are the highest value rewards you can give. It increases your dog's desire to simply be with you with no bribes required. This can be a life saver when something is about to go wrong and you don't have any food or neato toy with you to get your dog's attention back.

For myself, I have always done this when I walk with Lily and Peeves. We stop at all stop signs and any other random places I choose and they have to do sits etc. Now that they are older I have them each do something different rather than both sitting at the same time.

In terms of not using food, for Lily especially all of the time we have spent working on training for performance events has truly made her value the life rewards at least as much as the food. I don't use much food at all anymore unless I am teaching her something new, and maybe for a very outstanding performance of a whole routine. After each exercise it is all about quietly putting love on her. Many of the people I train with use tons of food and lots of wow wee, woo hoo over the top praise. Then they wonder why their dogs look stressed in trials. I think they are overdoing the parties in training then making the trials stressful and dull. It must confuse the heck out of the dogs!


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## patk

lily cd re said:


> ... Many of the people I train with use tons of food and lots of wow wee, woo hoo over the top praise. Then they wonder why their dogs look stressed in trials. I think they are overdoing the parties in training then making the trials stressful and dull. It must confuse the heck out of the dogs!


i also wonder if the sudden change to no treats or parties suggests to a sensitive dog that it is not performing well. what a message to send if true. in any case, it's one more reason ian dunbar's advice to fade treats rather quickly makes sense to me.


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## lily cd re

patk said:


> i also wonder if the sudden change to no treats or parties suggests to a sensitive dog that it is not performing well. what a message to send if true. in any case, it's one more reason ian dunbar's advice to fade treats rather quickly makes sense to me.


Yes patk if you have a soft dog I imagine that the sudden loss of the food rewards and the party would make them think they are doing something wrong. No wonder they stress out and fail. If Lily fails an exercise she does it in a blaze of glory. When you read the AKC obedience regulations there is this on "Standard of Perfection: The judge must carry a mental picture of the theoretically perfect performance for each exercise...this 'perfect picture'...shall combine the utmost in willingness, enjoyment and precision on the part of the dog with naturalness, gentleness and smoothness on the part of the handler." Lily never leaves anyone doubting she is enjoying what she is doing.


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## lily cd re

*Reinforcement Schedules in Training*

In an earlier post I wrote about Ian's belief that food should not be a major reinforcer for training a dog. He recommends using kibble for lure reward training to teach puppies, but even with puppies fades food to zero very quickly. You do want life rewards to become your dogs major reinforcer for following your orders. These can include playing fetch or tug or even just a walk or getting a nice belly rub. That being said, food rewards can be used for behavior maintenance training if you want, but you need to be thoughtful about how you do it. For a dog that knows the behavior, food rewards should be given all or none for only the best responses. As you are working on reinforcing a known behavior for a younger dog who needs to be proofed in different conditions (distance, distractions, etc) you should review the following about reinforcement schedules.

*Continuous Reinforcement rewards 100% of responses for many trials.* The dog will learn rapidly to give the behavior because it wants the food and knows it is coming all the time. Behavior learned this way will fade or may even disappear entirely when food is removed. This method spoils the dog and diminishes the value of the treat/reward.

*Fixed Schedule Reinforcement* (e.g. treat given precisely every 5th time) results in fairly rapid learning, but also is associated with behavior fading. Think about a scalloped edge line. The peaks of the scallops are fast responses with treats being predicted to come because the dog has figured out that every 5th time food comes, but not the other four times. The low points are poor or no responses on the intervals the dog predicts there will be no treat. * Fixed Ratio Reinforcement* is based on giving a reward for every X repeats of a behavior and works similarly to fixed schedule and results in behaviors fading as the dog figures out the ratio for getting the reward.

*Variable Schedule Reinforcement *keeps the dog guessing as to when and if rewards are coming. Since the rewards are unpredictable in their arrival the dog will give good responses all of the time hoping this time I get the treat. If you give a treat on the following schedule of after the 9th, 8th, 5th, 1st, 2nd, 7th 6th, 3rd, 4th, 5th response you have given the same number of rewards as if you were on an every 5 responses fixed schedule, but the dog will not have learned a pattern of when rewards come. I for one would not care to do those calculations and remember which interval I was on in that schedule which brings us to,

*Random Reinforcement* which is truly random and allows us as trainers to be inconsistent to our advantage. give a treat when you feel like it, but not all the time or in a predictable pattern. Random reinforcement is easily converted to 

*Differential Reinforcement* which is random and based on giving better rewards for better responses (faster recalls, longer duration stays, etc.) Use the following criteria: a 10% better than average response is required to even think about rewards; a 20% better than average response gets a decent reward; a 30% better than average response gets a jackpot reward. For example let's say you want to increase the duration of a sit stay in a pup that keeps popping up. Give a sit and stay order and time the duration, repeating for five trials. Let's say you measure 29, 28, 27, 26 and 40 second stays, your average is 30 seconds. Apply your differential reinforcement schedule for a day or two (or between your weekly training class) and then remeasure stay duration again for five trials. You will calculate an increase in average length of the sit stay. This can be repeated over and over and gives you a way to meaningfully quantify the outcomes of your training.


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## BeckyM

Thank you so much for this great info!


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## Mfmst

I'm very new to the PF, but when I first saw the list of all of your dog's obedience achievements, I figured you were an expert in the community. I read all of your posts and this Ian Dunbar thread has been very enlightening. I'm going to follow my breeder's advice, however, and not risk my puppy's health at a puppy class until he's had all of his vaccinations. He'll just have to be home schooled until then


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## Chells_Aura

Mfmst said:


> I'm very new to the PF, but when I first saw the list of all of your dog's obedience achievements, I figured you were an expert in the community. I read all of your posts and this Ian Dunbar thread has been very enlightening. I'm going to follow my breeder's advice, however, and not risk my puppy's health at a puppy class until he's had all of his vaccinations. He'll just have to be home schooled until then



Maybe find someone with an older dog who's good with dogs (calm etc) and who is up to date on their vaccines? That way you know your dog will be safe but they will still get the socialization they need?


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## lily cd re

Everyone should work at their comfort level and in the advise of their veterinarian. I have a friendly acquaintanceship with a vet who is fairly young. She is the wife of the man who owns the canine conditioning place that I go. We recently had a conversation about taking young pups out. She agreed that it is safe to take young puppies to puppy classes before their immunizations are finished, but also said she doesn't recommend it since she doesn't want her clients to hear that as carte blanche to take little puppies to a dog park or other such free for all kind of place. We have to remember that most people aren't so smart as poodle people. 

Chell's suggestion to find a well mannered, up to date on vaccines dog in your area to socialize until you feel comfortable otherwise is a good one


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## Streetcar

Lily cd re, I've been popping onto this post/thread off and on, and just read what you wrote about quieter praise. It instantly struck me such an approach might be better suited to Oliver than what I've been doing. Thank you .


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## lily cd re

Streetcar I find that Lily listens more attentively when I am quieter. It is as if she is trying to make sure she doesn't miss anything. I have to give my orders on the loud side, otherwise she seems to think I don;t mean it, but for her praise she leans in and pays close attention.

So remember how I wrote that you should be able to get your dog to sit, down etc. from any position earlier in this thread? Well I've been working on having Lily do moving sits in addition to the moving stand (a utility obedience exercise) and moving drop (a rally exercise). She thought it was weird at first, but now she gets it very clearly. I am using moving stays in all positions and then a call to heel or call to front to help her keep her heeling crisp and remind her of where she is supposed to end up on those orders. It is working very well, although she was already a lovely heeling dog.


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## Streetcar

Thank you so much, Lily cd re .

He and I so need to go to class, but today when I wanted to call him away from our cat and did it with a very quiet voice, granted it took 3 times, but once my voice entered that busy brain, he stopped and dashed to me. Btw, even at a normal tone, I'd still have had to call 3 times!

He gets so wrapped up with our kitteh. My almost 11-year-old cat has fortunately become good about being a bit assertive and will gently whack him a bit . He never had to do that with my last dog so has always been quite gentle, and this has been an interesting transition with me having brought in a young boisterous Tpoo.... They do take turns chasing one another down the hall like Charles did with my last dog, so that makes me happy .


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## lily cd re

So this isn't quite an Ian Dunbar tip but I am pretty sure he would agree with me about this. Teach your puppy to walk on different kinds of surfaces. Include carpet, wood floors, ceramic tiles and other surfaces that are in and around your home, but also metal surfaces, etc. I had Lily with me at work the other day and noticed she definitely still avoids metal door sills. It makes getting through the doors at school with her and my supplies for class a bit challenging.


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## fidelity

*WHO hijacked this?*



Wild Kitten said:


> Never said it was not important (to some), but why sidetrack a perfectly good topic that has nothing to do with anything? It could have been done in a new topic.....
> 
> BTW...... my user name is Wild Kitten now WW
> 
> So far it seems to me that the ones that promote positive non pain inducing training are being run out of here.
> 
> 
> Now I said my piece.... I'm out.


Ironic that the Wild Kitten--whose criticism was that the author should not have self-hijacked but should have started a new thread--is actually the hijacker here. The thread stopped after Wild Kitten complained about its being "sidetracked": if Wild Kitten had not so complained, maybe we all would have had the benefit of more from this source. Where the author is getting criticism, speaking to the critics WHERE THEY HAVE CRITICIZED is the only way to reach them -- and it is THEY who need to hear the response -- so I think the original self-hijack was perfectly okay (and I will ignore any objection to my having expressed my own opinion). The SHAME here is that controversy over taking shots at other contributors effectively silenced this contributor. What a sad situation!


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## lily cd re

fidelity said:


> Ironic that the Wild Kitten--whose criticism was that the author should not have self-hijacked but should have started a new thread--is actually the hijacker here. The thread stopped after Wild Kitten complained about its being "sidetracked": if Wild Kitten had not so complained, maybe we all would have had the benefit of more from this source. Where the author is getting criticism, speaking to the critics WHERE THEY HAVE CRITICIZED is the only way to reach them -- and it is THEY who need to hear the response -- so I think the original self-hijack was perfectly okay (and I will ignore any objection to my having expressed my own opinion). The SHAME here is that controversy over taking shots at other contributors effectively silenced this contributor. What a sad situation!


fidelity if you read the entire thread you would know that I added many other tips after the side bar. There is a reason that the thread is now a sticky thread. It just so happens that there have been other topics I have been posting on more actively recently and that is why there isn't so much new here. I am far from silent here, just interested in many differwnt discussions.


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## onceagain

*Thanks for all the tips...especially..*

Just wanted to say I've finally gotten a chance to read this sticky, and love all the great tips you've noted. I've read some of Dunbar's info, but haven't had time to read all, read when I get a chance. Solo parenting 2 young children, and caring for my now 16 week old standard. 

Especially love the tips about teaching your dogs eventually without the use of food or clicker. This is super helpful for our situation, because while I've managed to sign up and attend puppy preschool (or really, socialization) I can barely remember the clicker they gave us, and currently, thankfully do remember to bring along treats for rewards at puppy class. However, when we're around the house, I'm so busy just making sure he's not getting into anything (always replacing mittens/hats with puppy toys, making sure kids toys are out of the way, etc), and caring for the kids while hubby is away working (and we've been getting hit with tons of storms lately) that I can't remember where I put the darn clicker, and don't want to buy more, one more thing to remember. And, I don't always have treats on me, I do treat with food a bit (carrots usually), but usually I'm using my voice and hoping that somewhere, someone has decided that this isn't the archaic and worst way of training....cause it's what's happening here.

Then for walks, again, I'm happy if I've remembered the poop bags, and my hat/mitts/sunglasses/keys.....clicker and treats are at the bottom of the list and never come along. 

So, he's 16 weeks now, I need to be more diligent with training the behaviours/commands that we need. I have basics of what I need, mostly done with voice, some treats (so really like the theory behind randomized treating, cause that's what's happening here regardless). He knows 'sit', 'in your bed', 'car' (car coming, come sit by me), 'on your mat' (when we come in from outside, to sit on blanket at door, while I take off boots, etc, and then if necessary, wipe him off a bit). He's starting to learn 'leave it', and a bit of 'drop it'. Needing him to learn 'off' (get off the kids or whatever), 'down' and of course, he's not learning them as well. As he gets bigger, jumping up is definitely more of an issue, since he did accidently knock over my 5yr old with his excitement. So was working today on using his lunch kibble to train him to be 'down' - but need to research that technique a bit more.

Anyway, all this rambling to say, thanks - love the info!!


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## lily cd re

onceagain I am happy to hear that this was a good condensed version of Ian Dunbar. I think it sounds like you are doing just fine with your pup. Remember he is a baby dog, so be patient and consistent (hard I know sometimes) and it will pay off.


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## NNS

Just curious, what college classes did you use to teach? Are you still teaching?


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## lily cd re

I am still a college professor (full time) and dog trainer (part time). I teach intro bio for majors (wanna be pharmacists, physical therapists, physician assistants etc) and microbiology for the same population of students. My graduate degree (Ph.D.) is in immunology from an Ivy League Medical Center based program. The science is important in my training since as Dr. Dunbar advocates (along with many other folks like Brenda Aloff) dog training should be based on scientific evidence using data on research from learning theory and canine neurobiology.


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## NNS

Ohhh very nice! I am a huge Ian Dunbar fan. I have a Bachelor of Science in Cellular and Molecular Biology. But I haven't found any research associate jobs where I live in Virginia. Do you live full time in Long Island?


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## lily cd re

Long Island born, raised and plan to die here (not for a while on the last part though).


I love Ian's writing and training. I feel very fortunate to have met and workshopped with him a number of times before he retired from the road.


I feel your pain on finding a job. Having a Bachelors degree only makes it a bit harder. Perhaps look for a local biotech incubator where a start up may be more likely to hire with no grad degree. When you get in at the ground level often if they really like and want to keep a person they will at least help pay for grad school.


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## NNS

That's what I would like to do, find a Biotech company and go to graduate school in the future. I may have to wait until I potentially move to D.C. in a few years. I also am very attached to my puppy and love being home with him full time. So I'm interested in working from home, preferably in a science related field.


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## cowpony

Last night an ad for a free Ian Dunbar webinar popped up in my Facebook feed, so I dropped in on it. According to the syllabus he had intended to discuss three topics: off leash recall, barking, and reactivity. However, he threw in lots of other nuggets about things like fading the use of treats, using stuffed Kong toys to promote quiet, restarting housebreaking with adult dogs, etc.

Another ad popped up this morning, so it seems like he has been repeating these sessions.


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## lily cd re

At most if not all of the workshops and seminars I attended Ian always had an agenda but went beyond and was incredibly generous. The particular things I learned from him about how to prudently use things like pinch collars were in coffee or lunch break conversations one on one. While he was still touring he never stopped working.

Also at those workshops his son Jamie was always recording and I suspect many of the items he shares are products from those events. We are all very fortunate to have access to his wisdom even though he has retired from touring. I consider myself very fortunate to have had the chance to learn from him directly.


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## For Want of Poodle

If you see another one, would you please post the link here? I'd be very interested to listen in.


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## lily cd re

FWOP check on dogstardaily.com there are lots of great resources from Ian there.


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## cowpony

It looks like dunbartraining.com currently redirects to the next webinar time.


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## Liz

Thanks, @cowpony , wrapping up now. Heckuva deal on his oevre.


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## PeggyTheParti

I suspect that "webinar" might actually be some sort of scam. It comes from a Facebook page that's not his, and repeats constantly.


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## PeggyTheParti

(That's not to say the content isn't real and useful. I just don't understand why they—whoever "they" is—pretend it's live. Not sure what's to be gained from that.)


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## cowpony

PeggyTheParti said:


> (That's not to say the content isn't real and useful. I just don't understand why they—whoever "they" is—pretend it's live. Not sure what's to be gained from that.)


Yes, it is weird that it pretends to be live. However, it seems to have started as a legit business deal between Dunbar and the folks running the ads. All the Dunbar Websites


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## For Want of Poodle

I enjoyed it. Yes, does seem to be running continuously which is weird. 

Better, I threw it on the TV in the living room and my mom also was forced to watch it. Mom's biggest pet peeve with the dogs is they bark too much (Trixie barks at EVERYTHING, and then Annie joins in. Annie barks at shadows, and Trixie joins in). Mom agreed to start feeding Annie and Trixie with more food toys, which I have wanted to do, and did seem to listen a bit to the section on recall (Trixie's other big challenge). Always good to have someone else explain it lol. Plus, Mom now has an explanation as to why I pretty much always have treats with us on our walks! 

So - thank you cowpony! Definitely worth watching.


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## PeggyTheParti

cowpony said:


> Yes, it is weird that it pretends to be live. However, it seems to have started as a legit business deal between Dunbar and the folks running the ads. All the Dunbar Websites


Interesting! Thanks for digging that up.


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## Liz

I think it's just an infomercial for the package deal at the end. An avalanche of material for $200 .


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