# Please help! Advice on dog selection?



## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

*Adult poodle*

Well, I think I'm talking to myself here. I think I need to either get an adult dog or wait two-to-three years for a puppy. I'm remembering how tough those puppy years can be. :alberteinstein:

Nancy


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## charity (Jan 23, 2009)

I have always preferred to have a puppy and raise it my way. But with young children (more than one that is) I would look for and adult to adopt/buy that was already settled and house trained. It might keep your hair from turning gray as fast!! LOL


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## charity (Jan 23, 2009)

Oh, and size choice...I had to have both toys and a spoo. The spoo is to me a great family dog and great for my son to run and play with...but my toy boys are my couch/bed buddies. Shamus is my shadow and is always in my lap...but he prefers only me, he could care less what everyone else is doing or wants!:aetsch:


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Hi..

Don't know if I can help you make a decision about whether to get an adult or a puppy, I can just tell you about my personal experiences. Also I have only had Standard Poodles...so I can't help you with the decision whether to get a mini or standard.

My poodles were already 2 and 3 years old when I had my son. Both of them took it in their stride. Although I never gave them any less attention once I had my son. As a matter of fact I was hospitalised for over a month when I had him and the day I got back home with him I bundled him up in his pram and took my two girls out for a walk. My neighbours were astonished..because I had been so sick and I still wanted to give my poodles all the attention they had always had. So they welcomed the new arrival because they still got all the attention they ever did...and as my son grew they just accepted the crawling and grabbing. etc.

I think that is the key..poodles need to be part of a family and do not want to pushed to the side (intentionally or unintentionally).

If you decide to get an adult you are also unaware of what sort of life it led before. We adopted our Greyhound when he was 6 and he had spent his whole life racing. He had a big adjustment to make.

I think the difference between getting an adult dog acclimated to a new environment and housetraining (etc) a puppy is negligible. Both require effort.

I never found the puppy years to be tough with any poodle I have had. I enjoyed them.
I have never found having a puppy that much of a hardship.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks, charity, for the response! I was beginning to think I was a doofus for posting! *lol*

Oh, I love the toys! They are so cute! My sister has an apricot male that she carries around like a little baby. He goes everywhere with her. I mean everywhere! I'm just so concerned that my kids would hurt a toy. They are very good around dogs/pets, and they love my sister's dogs. I just do not not not not want a sweet toy harmed by grabby small-child hands and an active boy.


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## robin (Dec 18, 2010)

My concern is that a young spoo puppy will grow large in size long before his brain catches up ^_^. With an 18-month-old child, that big puppy could create some problems -- I'm picturing a rambunctious pup knocking the baby down.

Several other threads here have talked about miniatures as a good option for families with small children -- not as fragile as a toy, sturdy enough to run and tussle with the kids.

You might consider that option.
best,
robin


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Thank you for sharing your experiences, truelove. I know...I've always raised my dogs from puppies. It is like starting out with a newborn baby. They are so sweet and need so much that the entire experience seems to be a bonding process. 

I have been concerned about adopting an adult for the very reasons you stated. I would wonder if something is wrong. I would want to know why they are having to place their pet with someone else. It is concerning, but on the other hand I know there are legitimate reasons for needing to take back an adult or older puppy (such as show dogs that don't work out because of height, etc). 

I guess really I just need to keep thinking about this and wait until the time is right. I know it is best for me to act responsibly instead of being impulsive, even though I WANT one. I need to do what is best for a pet and for my family.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Robin, thanks, that is a very good point to consider.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the absolute ideal would be a young, well socialised, happy adult mini. See Skye's threads for how happy her family are with the two they have adopted. Frankly, I would not choose to have a puppy while still coping with very small children - the mental picture of baby crawling though puppy puddles and poop is more than I can cope with, and I know I am simply not up to the job of managing house training with a toddler in tow!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

One point that hasn't been addressed (I don't think) is that a mini can be as active, even more so than a standard. 

Also, are you a stay at home mom or do you work outside the home?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> One point that hasn't been addressed (I don't think) is that a mini can be as active, even more so than a standard.


I've never owned a mini, but I have read this opinion here (that minis can be more active than you might think - I've heard they can make AWESOME agility dogs!)  Our standard poodles have as much energy as we want them to have (if that makes any sense...) If we're being active out in the yard or on walks, they're able to amp up the energy, but as soon as we plop on the sofa for an evening of popcorn and movies, they find their favorite spots and curl up to nap.

One experience I can share is regarding adopting an adult dog. I adopted Hannah (not a poodle) when she was somewhere between 3 and 5 years old. She was a stray rescue and the vet had to make a guess about her age - we'll never know her real age for sure. I'll also never know what sort of life she had before... What type of owner? Did she live inside or out? So many questions... But I have to say she has been the joy of my heart for the last nine years! She was housetrained, she refused to jump up on the furniture at first even though I encouraged it (she has no such problem anymore! :lol She is extremely calm, biddable, obedient, gentle, sweet, loving, etc, etc, etc... She would have been the perfect pet for just about ANYONE (and I'm so lucky she's mine!!) I have two young nieces who ADORE Hannah and ask for her to come visit them as often as possible (they have a exuberant yellow lab who can't stop flogging them with his tail or bumping them with his large frame) They love being able to pet and cuddle a quiet dog. Hannah is a perfect size at about 45 pounds - big enough not to get injured easily and small enough not to intimidate the little ones.

I agree that there can be some problem children (of all ages) out there looking for homes, but there are also true gems if you're lucky enough to find one!

Good luck!


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## JacksMommy22 (Mar 10, 2011)

Hi there!
I'm a mom as well and have an 11yr old and a 4yr old. We adopted a 4 year old standard poodle back in august and it was the greatest thing we ever did! I struggled with finding a reputable breeder and/or finding a resuce that would adopt to a family with small children. We got Jack from an all breed rescue and I couldn't be happier with him! I was nervous about not knowing much about him but the rescue actually had lots of information. Since he had lived his whole 4yrs of life with 1 family (w/5 kids) he was very well adjusted to a busy home and took well to my 2 boys. He does have some confidence issues when we are out of our yard and home. He scares easily but we are working on that. My husband had a standard growing up but Jack is my first dog EVER! I am so thankful that he's in our life and he is getting all the love and attention he missed out on  Now we want another one but not sure if we want to rescue again or start out with a puppy. I just don't see us ever being without a standard poodle 
Good luck with everything and I'm sorry to hear about your little Beau.
JacksMommy22


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## Standard (Aug 25, 2010)

You might also consider that some breeders breed a mini and standard to get an 'inbetween' size. Or even look for a small standard. I can't say what would be better for kids, the mini or the standard, but I believe most poodles will adjust well enough to handle your kids.

And as for lap dogs, don't worry! Standards do that too! Haha.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Standard said:


> You might also consider that some breeders breed a mini and standard to get an 'inbetween' size.


I do believe this is "generally" not good breeding practice, so I would not search this out specifically if it were me. Some people breed the moyen/klein size poodle using imported dogs from Europe where this is an accepted size in between the mini and the standard.

However, lots of standards are on the smaller size. I wouldn't worry so much about size of the dog but abouts it's activity level and temperament. Minis are great if you want a smaller dog. They are sturdier than toys--I think a toy should pretty much be out of the question for you with an 18-month-old. Minis still need some caution that they are not accidentally tripped over, etc., but they are definitely not as fragile/delicate as a toy.

If it were me in your situation, I would probably look for an adult standard or mini with preferably some kind of information on the dog's background and preferably living in a foster situation where there are kids in the home. I believe with Skye's Auggie he was living in a foster home with kids, so they knew he was good with them.

A puppy would not be impossible, but having just come off the puppy stage myself (my mini is 16 months old now), it's HARD and a lot of work. I personally wouldn't dream of it with an 18-month-old. If we get another puppy, it won't be for several more years (after we have kids and when the youngest/last child is 4 at the bare minimum).


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I've never owned a mini but I have owned spoos from various situations so here are my experiences with kids and spoos.

We got our 1st spoo Rusty as a puppy about 3 years before we our first child. Rusty was wonderful with both our oldest 2. He passed away when I was preg. with our 3 child. 

When our three kids were 9, 3 and 1 we adopted a wonderful 4 year old spoo named Sport. I knew very little about his background. He had been a kennel dog for a while when we got him but we were at least his 3rd or 4th owners. He was a wonderful gentleman of a dog who had great manners and a true couch potato. From almost the day we got him he decided this was his home and he was ohh so grateful. He was bomb proof and wonderful with the kids. Not to mention he was a big standard 27" at the shoulder and 65 pounds.

If fact he was so great that when the kids were 12, 6 and 4 two more little furry family members came into our lives. Betty Jo and Jenny are now 2 and are and always have been wonderful with the kids. They let them dress them up, brush them, train them and will even play hide and seek with them. The kids love to sleep with them and have had contests taking shifts trying our out cuddle Betty Jo. So far the kids haven't won yet

The only issue we had with our rescue dog Sport was a heart breaker. When he was 8 he got immune mediated thermopenia and passed away. We still miss him. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat!!! 

Personally I think (though I admit I'm very biased) that spoos and kids are a wonderful combo.


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## onlypoodles4me (May 18, 2009)

I have a friend who wanted a standard badly after getting to know my poodles. she really could not justify spending a ton of money on a well bred dog, but she is a very persistant person. She found a 10 month old who has been raised with a bunch of small children. The woman (a groomer no less) had 10 dogs. She had bred a litter and did not sell them all. He had no real socialization, just a yard dog. Animal Control came in and told her that many of the dogs must go. When we went to see him he had never been clipped, reeked of urine, and was scared to death. After a good bath and clip, she took him home. My friends son was only 1-1/2 at the time, it was not a big ordeal, the dog totally related to the child. He was more afraid of the husband than anything. They did have to work on him to get him over his lack of proper socialization. He is now a very happy healthy dog, and a super dog with her son, and new baby. She is a stay at home mom who also takes care of her niece. They also have a toy poodle who they adopted as an adult (child friendly) when her first son was only 3 months. Never any issues, occasionally the toy poodle is seen riding in a butterfly net, or a baby stroller, willingly. The children have been taught to respect the dogs, as well as to use the proper commands.
I think it really depends on how you are as a parent, and dog owner, as well as the right dog for you. I personally think a standard is a good choice, and they can be lap dogs!


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

fjm said:


> I think the absolute ideal would be a young, well socialised, happy adult mini. See Skye's threads for how happy her family are with the two they have adopted. Frankly, I would not choose to have a puppy while still coping with very small children - the mental picture of baby crawling though puppy puddles and poop is more than I can cope with, and I know I am simply not up to the job of managing house training with a toddler in tow!



Thank you! I will find Skye's posts and read about her experiences with the minis. My 18-month-old is past the crawling stage, but I do understand what you mean...ew. *lol*


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Poodle Lover said:


> One point that hasn't been addressed (I don't think) is that a mini can be as active, even more so than a standard.
> 
> Also, are you a stay at home mom or do you work outside the home?


Wow! I love all the responses! Thanks so much! 

Yes, I am a SAHM right now. My 18-month-old is gone part of the day to play with other children at a nearby preschool. My other two are in school most of the day. My hubby works from his home office, so he is in and out if he is in town. Mostly it is me here during the weekdays. In other words, any pet would be spending most of their time with me alone on school days. 

Of course the two youngest children will be home with me during the summer.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

plumcrazy said:


> I've never owned a mini, but I have read this opinion here (that minis can be more active than you might think - I've heard they can make AWESOME agility dogs!)  Our standard poodles have as much energy as we want them to have (if that makes any sense...) If we're being active out in the yard or on walks, they're able to amp up the energy, but as soon as we plop on the sofa for an evening of popcorn and movies, they find their favorite spots and curl up to nap.
> 
> One experience I can share is regarding adopting an adult dog. I adopted Hannah (not a poodle) when she was somewhere between 3 and 5 years old. She was a stray rescue and the vet had to make a guess about her age - we'll never know her real age for sure. I'll also never know what sort of life she had before... What type of owner? Did she live inside or out? So many questions... But I have to say she has been the joy of my heart for the last nine years! She was housetrained, she refused to jump up on the furniture at first even though I encouraged it (she has no such problem anymore! :lol She is extremely calm, biddable, obedient, gentle, sweet, loving, etc, etc, etc... She would have been the perfect pet for just about ANYONE (and I'm so lucky she's mine!!) I have two young nieces who ADORE Hannah and ask for her to come visit them as often as possible (they have a exuberant yellow lab who can't stop flogging them with his tail or bumping them with his large frame) They love being able to pet and cuddle a quiet dog. Hannah is a perfect size at about 45 pounds - big enough not to get injured easily and small enough not to intimidate the little ones.
> 
> ...


I had a mini before, so I know what owning a mini is like. I adored my boy! He was awesome! I am just not very familiar with the Standards and wasn't sure if they were more laid-back or what. 

I owned Border Collies in the past, and they required a LOT of exercise, attention, training, etc. They were extremely high-maintenance! I took them to obedience school at my local college, and worked with them every single day. While I adored them too, I know a Border Collie is not a good idea for my circumstances right now. They require so much constant energy, a lot of room to run outside (we had acres/pastures at the time and no children), animals to herd or activities to do, etc. 

I need somewhat more laid-back than that now with my children and my one acre property. My mini male was happy with me tossing his ball or his squeaky toy, playing outside with my little boy (this was before the baby), and just being with us. He was happy and energetic, but just on a different level than my Border Collies. They were more DRIVEN and desperate to work, if that makes any sense at all. (I'd post a picture of them, but this is a poodle forum after all...lol...maybe this is the wrong place.)

So...I was wondering if the Standard size poodle was more like my bigger Border Collies or more like the miniature poodle. I'm guess it really has more to do with individual temperament than breed, but I also think maybe breed has something to do with it.

Thank you for relating your experience with your adult rescue. I'm really leaning toward getting an adult if I find the right one. If not, then I will wait until my children are older to get a poodle puppy. (OR BOTH! HA!)


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

JacksMommy22 said:


> Hi there!
> I'm a mom as well and have an 11yr old and a 4yr old. We adopted a 4 year old standard poodle back in august and it was the greatest thing we ever did! I struggled with finding a reputable breeder and/or finding a resuce that would adopt to a family with small children. We got Jack from an all breed rescue and I couldn't be happier with him! I was nervous about not knowing much about him but the rescue actually had lots of information. Since he had lived his whole 4yrs of life with 1 family (w/5 kids) he was very well adjusted to a busy home and took well to my 2 boys. He does have some confidence issues when we are out of our yard and home. He scares easily but we are working on that. My husband had a standard growing up but Jack is my first dog EVER! I am so thankful that he's in our life and he is getting all the love and attention he missed out on  Now we want another one but not sure if we want to rescue again or start out with a puppy. I just don't see us ever being without a standard poodle
> Good luck with everything and I'm sorry to hear about your little Beau.
> JacksMommy22


Oh my..this brought tears to my eyes! How sweet! My little boy keeps begging me for a dog, but honestly, I would love a companion while I wait for everyone to come home! Yes, I miss Beau so much!


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Standard said:


> You might also consider that some breeders breed a mini and standard to get an 'inbetween' size. Or even look for a small standard. I can't say what would be better for kids, the mini or the standard, but I believe most poodles will adjust well enough to handle your kids.
> 
> And as for lap dogs, don't worry! Standards do that too! Haha.


The big Standard climbing up in my chair! *lol* That image makes me laugh! OH YES! By reading on this forum after I posted my questions, I learned about the Moyens? Kleins? I think I found another name for them somewhere that started with a "C"? Not sure what term is proper, as really I'm new to poodles (other than the one mini I owned before, but I never showed any, groomed them myself, or etc). I've seen some small town shows, and some small agility contests, herding competitions, etc. Those in-between size ones sound interesting! I've been taking notes and bookmarking the sites/breeders that I see mentioned, and doing a lot of research. Maybe I'll just watch and see if something jumps out at me...like an adult that they are selling or something.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> I do believe this is "generally" not good breeding practice, so I would not search this out specifically if it were me. Some people breed the moyen/klein size poodle using imported dogs from Europe where this is an accepted size in between the mini and the standard.
> 
> However, lots of standards are on the smaller size. I wouldn't worry so much about size of the dog but abouts it's activity level and temperament. Minis are great if you want a smaller dog. They are sturdier than toys--I think a toy should pretty much be out of the question for you with an 18-month-old. Minis still need some caution that they are not accidentally tripped over, etc., but they are definitely not as fragile/delicate as a toy.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks! Until reading about them on this forum, I didn't even know about the Klein/Moyens. Those aren't a good idea? Will they look deformed or something? One reason I love the poodles is for their beauty, not to mention their intelligence and etc.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Trillium said:


> I've never owned a mini but I have owned spoos from various situations so here are my experiences with kids and spoos.
> 
> We got our 1st spoo Rusty as a puppy about 3 years before we our first child. Rusty was wonderful with both our oldest 2. He passed away when I was preg. with our 3 child.
> 
> ...




Thank you for sharing! This is exactly what I want for my little family!


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

onlypoodles4me said:


> I have a friend who wanted a standard badly after getting to know my poodles. she really could not justify spending a ton of money on a well bred dog, but she is a very persistant person. She found a 10 month old who has been raised with a bunch of small children. The woman (a groomer no less) had 10 dogs. She had bred a litter and did not sell them all. He had no real socialization, just a yard dog. Animal Control came in and told her that many of the dogs must go. When we went to see him he had never been clipped, reeked of urine, and was scared to death. After a good bath and clip, she took him home. My friends son was only 1-1/2 at the time, it was not a big ordeal, the dog totally related to the child. He was more afraid of the husband than anything. They did have to work on him to get him over his lack of proper socialization. He is now a very happy healthy dog, and a super dog with her son, and new baby. She is a stay at home mom who also takes care of her niece. They also have a toy poodle who they adopted as an adult (child friendly) when her first son was only 3 months. Never any issues, occasionally the toy poodle is seen riding in a butterfly net, or a baby stroller, willingly. The children have been taught to respect the dogs, as well as to use the proper commands.
> I think it really depends on how you are as a parent, and dog owner, as well as the right dog for you. I personally think a standard is a good choice, and they can be lap dogs!


Thank you for your response! I'm a former teacher, so I like my children and my dogs to behave themselves as I have trained them (heh..funny, they are a lot alike in many ways), but I also love cuddling, snuggling, reading books with them and watching TV..whatever we do together is fun! My concern is that one of my children will trigger some fear in a rescued dog and the dog will defend itself. I don't want my children harmed, of course, but I don't want a dog/pet harmed either by grabbing, clinging hands. My son is soooo energetic, but he is a good boy with a sensitive heart. He would never INTEND to hurt anything. He would feel horrible if he hurt his pet by accident. He was terrific with the mini we had before. My baby, of course, just wants to grab and hold any pet she sees like she does her stuffed toys. She has only been around other people's pets. I doubt she remembers Beau from when she was a tiny preemie baby. Yes, she would have to be taught not to hurt a pet, but it is a concern of mine.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

I dont have small children , mine are all grown and gone  I do have a Standard Poodle , 1 yr old male "puppy" and a brand new Mini female puppy. We got the Standard because we though it would be better suited to living with our Greyhound. I was actually wanting a smaller dog. I have to say he is tons of fun but very full of energy but more that that he is very strong! I dont know that I would say that he has more energy than the Minis I have known but just that it is in a big package. My Mini is a little ball of fire so far LOL! If you have the opportunity to adopt a young adult that would be what I would do. You of course would want to be sure it has been temperament tested so you feel comfortable with it and the kids. No dog, even one you raise is totally trustworthy if they are stepped on or hurt. First puppy teeth are pretty hard on a little one and mine loves to play and grab. I have noticed that at a year old Hoolie has calmed down significantly and i am expecting much more in the next year . Your comment bout cuddling up with one on your lap.. well it can be done with a Standard  but what a huge lapful!


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Feathersprings said:


> I dont have small children , mine are all grown and gone  I do have a Standard Poodle , 1 yr old male "puppy" and a brand new Mini female puppy. We got the Standard because we though it would be better suited to living with our Greyhound. I was actually wanting a smaller dog. I have to say he is tons of fun but very full of energy but more that that he is very strong! I dont know that I would say that he has more energy than the Minis I have known but just that it is in a big package. My Mini is a little ball of fire so far LOL! If you have the opportunity to adopt a young adult that would be what I would do. You of course would want to be sure it has been temperament tested so you feel comfortable with it and the kids. No dog, even one you raise is totally trustworthy if they are stepped on or hurt. First puppy teeth are pretty hard on a little one and mine loves to play and grab. I have noticed that at a year old Hoolie has calmed down significantly and i am expecting much more in the next year . Your comment bout cuddling up with one on your lap.. well it can be done with a Standard  but what a huge lapful!


Thanks for responding! I think I am going to wait and just keep an eye/ear out. In time, my baby will grow a little more and I will learn more about poodles. I'm sure the right one will come along.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> Until reading about them on this forum, I didn't even know about the Klein/Moyens. Those aren't a good idea? Will they look deformed or something? One reason I love the poodles is for their beauty, not to mention their intelligence and etc.


There are different situations where you might get a klein/moyen sized dog. 1) Oversize mini. Many of us here have such a dog. My Casey is in this category, as is Chagall, and there are others. This happens because mini breeders often try to hit that just-under-15" mark, and often will have puppies (usually males) that end up growing a bit taller than 15". These dogs, far as I have seen, look fine, strong and well-proportioned, but they can't be shown in conformation once they have topped 15". Rumor has it that some breeders will show a likely-to-be-oversized mini as a puppy and try to finish it by 6 to 8 months, before it hits its full height. 

Second situation is crossing a mini and a standard to purposely aim for a moyen-sized dog. This is the practice that raises eyebrows to some degree. I would be a bit leery of a breeder who did that, but really depends on how much experience the breeder has, which particular dogs she is using, how well thought out the whole plan is, etc.

Last is the importing of moyens from Europe, where the Moyen/Klein size is recognized, can compete in European conformation, etc. This is probably the very best way to go if you want that size, but is still fairly rare in the U.S., since most breeders DO want to show in conformation and in the U.S., this size is not eligible. 

For practical purposes, getting an oversized mini from a show breeder is probably the easiest and most common route if you want that size.

When I bought Casey, I wasn't particularly looking for an oversized mini, but the breeder told me, when he was less than 3 months old, that it was possible he might outgrow the category. Since I'm not interested in showing, it really didn't matter to me. Now that I've had him for a couple years, I LOVE this size, and would do it again in a heartbeat.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

nlrussell said:


> Ok, thanks! Until reading about them on this forum, I didn't even know about the Klein/Moyens. Those aren't a good idea? Will they look deformed or something? One reason I love the poodles is for their beauty, not to mention their intelligence and etc.


I wouldn't get a Klien/Moyen, unless you get one from Europe that is a true Klien (Klien to Klien breeding). I find that a lot of times minis bread to standards just look a bit off. With larger, heavier standard heads, longer bodies of standards and shorter mini legs. I would prefer a larger, oversized mini like Nickel on this forum. He is 17", a larger mini, yet a mini none the less. My friend has a standard that was held back for the show, but she is just 19" so too small to be shown. She is gorgeous, petite leggy with beautiful confirmation, wonderful movement and carriage. But she is a standard to a T, no way to mistake her look for a mini.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Beach girl said:


> There are different situations where you might get a klein/moyen sized dog. 1) Oversize mini. Many of us here have such a dog. My Casey is in this category, as is Chagall, and there are others. This happens because mini breeders often try to hit that just-under-15" mark, and often will have puppies (usually males) that end up growing a bit taller than 15". These dogs, far as I have seen, look fine, strong and well-proportioned, but they can't be shown in conformation once they have topped 15". Rumor has it that some breeders will show a likely-to-be-oversized mini as a puppy and try to finish it by 6 to 8 months, before it hits its full height.
> 
> Second situation is crossing a mini and a standard to purposely aim for a moyen-sized dog. This is the practice that raises eyebrows to some degree. I would be a bit leery of a breeder who did that, but really depends on how much experience the breeder has, which particular dogs she is using, how well thought out the whole plan is, etc.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. I am so confused about what makes an oversized toy or a small mini........or a large mini vs a small standard. I can't tell a difference between some of the colors, and I'm definitely lost on some terms when people describe the way the dogs look (like a "snippy" face, or other descriptions). I guess I just have a lot to learn.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Poodle Lover said:


> I wouldn't get a Klien/Moyen, unless you get one from Europe that is a true Klien (Klien to Klien breeding). I find that a lot of times minis bread to standards just look a bit off. With larger, heavier standard heads, longer bodies of standards and shorter mini legs. I would prefer a larger, oversized mini like Nickel on this forum. He is 17", a larger mini, yet a mini none the less. My friend has a standard that was held back for the show, but she is just 19" so too small to be shown. She is gorgeous, petite leggy with beautiful confirmation, wonderful movement and carriage. But she is a standard to a T, no way to mistake her look for a mini.


I believe my Beau was a small mini, but I don't know how tall he was. I do know he was 13 lbs the last time he went to the vet. Ew..I don't like the look of the short stubby legs and long bodies. I love the graceful, leggy look. There are many dogs on this forum that make me drool, but I loved looking at the pictures of the white spoo, Paris, running in the wind. Wow.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Poodle Lover said:


> I wouldn't get a Klien/Moyen, unless you get one from Europe that is a true Klien (Klien to Klien breeding). I find that a lot of times minis bread to standards just look a bit off. With larger, heavier standard heads, longer bodies of standards and shorter mini legs. I would prefer a larger, oversized mini like Nickel on this forum. He is 17", a larger mini, yet a mini none the less. My friend has a standard that was held back for the show, but she is just 19" so too small to be shown. She is gorgeous, petite leggy with beautiful confirmation, wonderful movement and carriage. But she is a standard to a T, no way to mistake her look for a mini.


I agree with what Beach Girl and Poodle Lover said. I would go the reputable mini breeders route instead of the mini/standard mix one. Nickel, my silver mini, just turned one a few weeks ago and is now a little over 17" and weighs 20 lbs. He's considered to be an oversized mini because you can tell from his pedigree that he has mini ancestors.

He's from a reputable show breeder. His parents are 15" champions. He's the biggest in the litter of 3. The breeder keeps one of the three. I got Nickel, the silver boy and his littermate Ryker who is a black mini is now in Florida. I think Ryker is right at 15". The breeder knew Nickel was going to be big and he told me when I first asked about the silver pup. He didn't know he would hit his growth spurt that soon though - the breeder was a little surprised when I told him that Nickel hit 12" when he turned 5 months old.

I like this size. He loves playing with big dogs and he has no problem with small dogs. I don't have to worry about him when around kids. He is a very active dog - he needed at least an hour non-stop, crazy chase/run every day but once he turned 10 months, he has calmed down significantly. Now he would be happy to go for a 30/40-min frisbee-catching session. He can still stay calm and quiet if we have to skip that due to the rain.

Yes, he is taller than I would like him to be because now he can't go in the cabin with me when we decide to take a plane trip but I know he can handle situations well. I don't have to worry about him too much. He's not a real lap dog but he LOVES to sit right next to me, with his head resting on me, every night when I watch TV.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> I am so confused about what makes an oversized toy or a small mini........or a large mini vs a small standard.


It can be tricky!! The poodle standards for the U.S. say that anything smaller than 10" is a toy, between 10 - 15" is a mini, over 15" is a standard. 

However, no one is ever going to show a 16" or 17" dog, or in fact anything up to about 20", in conformation. For all practical purposes, in the U.S., that 15 - 20" category is just a big gap, as far as conformation showing. In Europe, that is the Klein/Moyen range. 

Usually, if you have a 16 or 17" dog, maybe even approaching 18", what you have is a large dog from mini parents who were probably pushing the envelope right at 15". A 19" or 20" dog most likely is a small standard, a small dog from standard parents.

On the other side, a dog of 11" or 12" is just about as likely to be an overgrown toy as it is a small mini. Mini breeders usually want to hit the 13 - 15" range, not the small side of the range. An overgrown toy of 12" will look more spindly and delicate as compared to a true mini of 12". Height will be the same, but proportions will be different and the faces look different. 

Have you found the poodle pedigree database site? It's here: Poodle Pedigree Going into that site, you can look up a given sire and dam and see how they were registered (T, M, or S - toy, mini, standard) and see if there was mixing of the sizes back in the pedigree. Depending how obsessive you get about this, if you go WAY back, it is not at all unusual to see toy/mini mixes, and mini/standard mixes. 

There were several large British kennels back in the late 1800's to early 1900's, maybe up to WWI era. Those folks had large numbers of dogs and were instrumental in setting the standards and types for the poodles we have today. They mixed and matched as they saw fit to try to get the healthiest dogs with the best conformation possible. 

My love is the silvers; nearly all silver mini poodles in the U.S. come from a handful of British dogs from that era. Coming down to the present day, Nickel, Chagall and Casey are all related, not many generations back.

So, all that said, maybe that helps you figure out if you want to do research among mini breeders who sometimes will have a larger male, or standard breeders who might have a smaller than average, maybe more likely female, poodle for you.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Nickel's breeder in TN is accepting deposit for a few pups (silver, black, blue, white) from health-tested, CH parents right now. aery main page


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I currently have toys, but I've had minis for most of my life. They were male and probably over the height limit for minis, but they were great dogs and would have done well with children of any age. Spooky and Jacques weighed 16-17 lbs. and were not overweight. A good time fetching a tennis ball satisified their desire for exercise. Find a breeder you like and go see their dogs. They should be about as tall as they are long--square in other words. You aren't interested in showing, so if you like the look of the face, it doesn't matter if someone else thinks it is too pointy or square. Find a dog you love and you can make it work for your family.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Wow, so much to learn! Thank you for the explanations! I love learning about them. 

The pedigree site is very interesting! I saw my Beau's breeder listed there (Wildwood). His dogs come from Sherfames, Koehl, and others. 

Thanks, I will check out the aery page. I would adore a puppy, but I'm still concerned about my 18 month old with a puppy.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Many posters on this board know that I love adult dogs & not a huge fan of puppies. The whole "bond" issue for plenty of adult dogs is a load of cr*p. We just adopted our Spoo from Carolina Poodle rescue, that is located in SC. I at first wasn't going to apply because they didn't have Poo's on their website that met all my needs & they don't adopt to families with small children. I have a 5 year old. But I took a risk & decided if I had specifics in what I wanted in a dog then maybe they would know their dogs well enough to match me with a dog needing a home. We were approved even with a child since we currently had 4 dogs & I have had dogs in the past & have done obedience & agility with them. I was in awe at the knowledge this rescue group had of their dogs. At first I was looking for a Large Mini because all the Standards I had ever seen were 24"+ & I didn't want to groom a 5th dog that large. Needless to say they emailed me back saying they had about 4 dogs that could possibly meet our needs & to come visit. It took us a month to go out to SC & visit the farm & of course some of the dogs had been adopted out & I was thinking of the cute puppies they had but soon nicked that idea & when I opened my mind to a Spoo as long as it was small they had the perfect dog for us. We took him out to meet all of our 4 dogs who took an immediate liking to him, as well as my DH who renamed him on the spot. Leif went home with us & he was the 2nd dog I looked at. CPR knew what they had that would fit into our life. Leif is a STRAY dog so there is no background & for the life of me all I can come up with is that either grooming costs were too much or that he is VERY active & he just got bored one day & wandered away. Needless to say we have an awesome throwaway dog. Fully potty trained, doesn't get on the furniture even when all the other dogs are draped all over the furniture, walks well on the leash, trains fast, calm while inside & in the car & is GREAT for grooming which is what I wanted for my grooming competitions.

I hope that maybe you will consider CPR. They were at Atlanta Pet Fair with the Rescue Rodeo & they had at least 1 Parti Moyen size dog & plenty of other dogs there including the Mini I 1st saw. All were doing so well on that stressful day. I think you can easily get lazy Spoo's & just as easily get the high energy Spoo.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

3dogs said:


> Many posters on this board know that I love adult dogs & not a huge fan of puppies. The whole "bond" issue for plenty of adult dogs is a load of cr*p. We just adopted our Spoo from Carolina Poodle rescue, that is located in SC. I at first wasn't going to apply because they didn't have Poo's on their website that met all my needs & they don't adopt to families with small children. I have a 5 year old. But I took a risk & decided if I had specifics in what I wanted in a dog then maybe they would know their dogs well enough to match me with a dog needing a home. We were approved even with a child since we currently had 4 dogs & I have had dogs in the past & have done obedience & agility with them. I was in awe at the knowledge this rescue group had of their dogs. At first I was looking for a Large Mini because all the Standards I had ever seen were 24"+ & I didn't want to groom a 5th dog that large. Needless to say they emailed me back saying they had about 4 dogs that could possibly meet our needs & to come visit. It took us a month to go out to SC & visit the farm & of course some of the dogs had been adopted out & I was thinking of the cute puppies they had but soon nicked that idea & when I opened my mind to a Spoo as long as it was small they had the perfect dog for us. We took him out to meet all of our 4 dogs who took an immediate liking to him, as well as my DH who renamed him on the spot. Leif went home with us & he was the 2nd dog I looked at. CPR knew what they had that would fit into our life. Leif is a STRAY dog so there is no background & for the life of me all I can come up with is that either grooming costs were too much or that he is VERY active & he just got bored one day & wandered away. Needless to say we have an awesome throwaway dog. Fully potty trained, doesn't get on the furniture even when all the other dogs are draped all over the furniture, walks well on the leash, trains fast, calm while inside & in the car & is GREAT for grooming which is what I wanted for my grooming competitions.
> 
> I hope that maybe you will consider CPR. They were at Atlanta Pet Fair with the Rescue Rodeo & they had at least 1 Parti Moyen size dog & plenty of other dogs there including the Mini I 1st saw. All were doing so well on that stressful day. I think you can easily get lazy Spoo's & just as easily get the high energy Spoo.



Wow, thanks for letting me know! I did look at the rescue sites and I saw the rule about "no children under 10" on the Georgia one. I looked at the CPR as well and saw their rule about children. I believe it also said they didn't place dogs outside of the state.  I didn't know their rules weren't firm about that. Thanks again for the tip!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

CPR does place plenty of dogs out of state BUT you have to go to where the dog is being fostered & that is most likely at CPR in North West SC near Spartenburg. I think their policy on kids is none under 5 or 6 but I decided to apply anyhow & was so excited to get a phone interview & pass the whole process. If you go to the Atlanta Pet Fair website & click on Photo's 2011 & then scroll all the way down to all the photo's & then to Rescue Rodeo there were 2 CPR poodles that got placements- I think a 2nd & 3rd. 1 was a parti & the other a cream/white. Anyhow, give it a try & if they say to wait until your youngest is a bit older then at least you tried. Be specific in what you want & also a little open minded.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

3dogs said:


> CPR does place plenty of dogs out of state BUT you have to go to where the dog is being fostered & that is most likely at CPR in North West SC near Spartenburg. I think their policy on kids is none under 5 or 6 but I decided to apply anyhow & was so excited to get a phone interview & pass the whole process. If you go to the Atlanta Pet Fair website & click on Photo's 2011 & then scroll all the way down to all the photo's & then to Rescue Rodeo there were 2 CPR poodles that got placements- I think a 2nd & 3rd. 1 was a parti & the other a cream/white. Anyhow, give it a try & if they say to wait until your youngest is a bit older then at least you tried. Be specific in what you want & also a little open minded.


Ok, thank you! How cute they are! It looks like they are grooming the rescues in the photos? I saw that this event is only open to "the pet industry".  OMG...photo 43! AWW!


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

truelovepoodles said:


> I never found the puppy years to be tough with any poodle I have had. I enjoyed them.
> I have never found having a puppy that much of a hardship.


You know what's interesting, I only ever had toys, and I only had them in childhood, but I find myself continually surprised by what I hear about the "standard" dog experience. Sure the kids were peppy as pups, but I don't ever recall a rebellious phase with any of them. But they were toys lol; I'm sure there was a lot of behavior that would not have been acceptable in a dog 10x the weight.

Also our girls were perfectly behaved while the boys were rambunctious and sometimes getting pee on themselves and always wrestling or getting rebuked by the oldest. But everyone, everyone, tells me that behaviorally boys are calmer and especially if you are going to have multiple dogs you want boys in there (ie you don't want just a bunch of girls). I am so surprised by that.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

taem said:


> But everyone, everyone, tells me that behaviorally boys are calmer and especially if you are going to have multiple dogs you want boys in there (ie you don't want just a bunch of girls). I am so surprised by that.


I'm also so surprised by that! :lol: I'm one of the "rebels" and have only ever had female dogs. Currently we have 4 spayed bitches in our pack and, without exception; they're wonderfully behaved, calm and loving (even to each other!) I've also heard the caveat that more than one female dog living together could spell trouble, but we've either been extremely lucky or all of our dogs understand how the hierarchy works in our house (the people are in charge) and they don't attempt to buck the system. Since I also do foster care occasionally, any guest dogs (no matter gender) have to assimilate well into our current pack and even with that, I've never had a problem!

Barb


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I think the multiple females thing really is more dependent on breed. A bunch of terrier bitches are more likely to be scrappy than poodles. My coworker had three toy poodles, all female... they got along great.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

You may be right PA... However it would be difficult for me to test the theory since I have a variety of breeds (especially when I foster!)

Permanent pack members include 2 poodles (standard), a miniature dachshund and a heinz 57 (Boxer, cocker spaniel, great pyrenees, labrador, miniature poodle, and viszla mix). Fosters have included more standard poodles and mini dachshunds, beagle, heeler, labradors, GSH, viszla, plus a variety of mixed breeds.

One of my daughter's co-workers has two Chessie bitches that just recently have started to scrabble. She now has to keep them seperate when eating and sleeping or there will be blood drawn! I just hope I continue to have a peaceful kingdom in my house!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i have 4 dogs total. 3 female dogs all spayed. one standard poodle, one lab x hound and one cairn. i have 1 male cairn neutered.
my son comes over weekly with his pittbull terrier (spayed female)

every one gets along fabulously. lily my female cairn (terrier 17#) is the queen bee. 

or so she thinks.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I have males & females in our pack. I am in love with each one in a different way. I do find the intact females to be "bitc*y" without fail. I can't wait to get these 2 fixed, only a few more months. I see more difference in the size of our dogs. The 2 little ones are a pack of their own & they are 9 & 12. Then the larger dogs are a bit over 2 & our rescue spoo is unknown but between 2-5. I tend to gravitate towards the male dogs BUT I do think it could be breed specific as well. My parents no longer will have male Golden's since the 2 we have had in the family have been dog aggressive & they had better luck with the females so that is the only sex they adopt now.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Our girls were definitely moodier than the boys. But I adored how they had those bad hair days all over and were less doglike and more humanlike. None of my dogs ever fought. The whole concept is bizarre to me, I did not even know until recently that dogs within a single household would ever fight. I used to think I knew a lot about dogs because I lived with a bunch. But the more I read, the more I realize my experience was completely atypical.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

*Waiting....*

This is as bad as being pregnant! 

I want to buy brushes, a crate, soft doggy beds, leashes, toothbrushes, etc. 

I don't even have a pet in my sights yet. 

Sitting on my hands and waiting for the right time...tick tick tick....reggers:


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## robin (Dec 18, 2010)

OOOH, NLRussel, aren't you lucky! You have the luxury of time to learn prices of all the things you'll need so you can recognize terrific sales when you see them! (Just today I bought a soft-sided travel crate that usually sells for more than $100 -- on sale for $50).

You also have time to poke around through all poodle pictures here and elsewhere on the web so your eye can come to learn what you love -- and what you don't.

See? Waiting has its privileges, too!

best,
robin


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

*Mps*

I dream of one of every color like the Doris Day poster. HA! NOT reality for me, at least not at this time of my life. I've only owned three dogs at one time in my life anyway. Normally I just have one or two together, or two and a cat. I can't believe we don't even have a fish right now! Well, I was sick/weak/recovering from surgeries a long time so I guess now that I'm getting better I'm ready to LIVE! :cheers2:


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## lizzyc1974 (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi! I am a mom to a 4 year old and nanny to a 2 year old. When we bought our house last year I knew it was time for a second dog and I had been dreaming of a standard poodle. I have always had big dogs, so I always knew I wanted a standard. I had also read that they make a great family dog and are excellent with children, which was my main concern. 

We ended up finding Jester at the animal shelter. He was about 40 pounds, 9 months old. He was a crazy, hyper goof ball, but i could tell right away he was fine with the kids. I knew I could train him. It seriously only took him a week of training to settle down and listen to me. He still LOVES to run and play but I don't have to worry about him with the kids. He adores children and they can literally climb all over him. He is almost 2 now and the PERFECT family dog. I had him at the park the other day with 10 preschool kids all chasing him and playing fetch. My son plays baseball and soccer with him and chases him all around the yard. He is big enough (52 lbs) that they can wrestle with him and I don't worry about them hurting him (and then having a dog nipping or growling) with too much love, like you might with a mini or toy. Some small dogs I have met just seem to be afraid of boisterous young children. If you have the space, and time to train, I would highly recommend a standard! We love ours so much we are looking for another. 
children.


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

Lizzy, thank you for your reply! I believe I may get a standard some day. Right now, I am becoming more and more interested in Agility and in Therapy work. I'm thinking I may stick with the mini size for now. I do think the Standards are wonderful, though! Good luck in your search! 




lizzyc1974 said:


> Hi! I am a mom to a 4 year old and nanny to a 2 year old. When we bought our house last year I knew it was time for a second dog and I had been dreaming of a standard poodle. I have always had big dogs, so I always knew I wanted a standard. I had also read that they make a great family dog and are excellent with children, which was my main concern.
> 
> We ended up finding Jester at the animal shelter. He was about 40 pounds, 9 months old. He was a crazy, hyper goof ball, but i could tell right away he was fine with the kids. I knew I could train him. It seriously only took him a week of training to settle down and listen to me. He still LOVES to run and play but I don't have to worry about him with the kids. He adores children and they can literally climb all over him. He is almost 2 now and the PERFECT family dog. I had him at the park the other day with 10 preschool kids all chasing him and playing fetch. My son plays baseball and soccer with him and chases him all around the yard. He is big enough (52 lbs) that they can wrestle with him and I don't worry about them hurting him (and then having a dog nipping or growling) with too much love, like you might with a mini or toy. Some small dogs I have met just seem to be afraid of boisterous young children. If you have the space, and time to train, I would highly recommend a standard! We love ours so much we are looking for another.
> children.


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## lizzyc1974 (Mar 31, 2010)

Good luck to you too! Well, if you change your mind, there are some adorable 12 week old rescue standards available from a Georgia rescue. I have been thinking of making the drive myself for one of these cuties! They have a litter of 5....


Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Standard Poodle | Cochran, GA | Rizzoli and Isles


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## nlrussell (Mar 13, 2011)

lizzyc1974 said:


> Good luck to you too! Well, if you change your mind, there are some adorable 12 week old rescue standards available from a Georgia rescue. I have been thinking of making the drive myself for one of these cuties! They have a litter of 5....
> 
> 
> Petfinder Adoptable Dog | Standard Poodle | Cochran, GA | Rizzoli and Isles


AWWWW!!!! I have an 18-month-old baby, though, so no puppies for me right now!


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