# Rally vs obedience



## lily cd re

Oh yes, I suppose this could start a debate couldn't it? 

I initially only planned to do obedience and I was one of those who thought rally was just too easy to bother with. Early on my club offered a rally class that I took and I found it fun, so I entered.

Obviously I've done tons with rally at this point. I was caught in the rally rules transition in 2012 that got rid of the honor exercise in excellent and introduced the new signs. I waited to do Lily's excellent title until all judges had transitioned over to the sit stay because I had never like the idea of one dog having to do an on leash stay while another off leash dog worked the ring. The group stays in obedience are not my favorite, but at least all dogs are off leash and everyone is expected to stay in place.

I still work my obedience very hard (have (f)utility entries next weekend), but have gotten a lot out of doing rally. We finished Lily's CDX in December 2012. Since she is my novice A dog, I have really been struggling with training utility. I think doing rally has been really useful since it keeps her ring savvy. I suspect some people who have a hard time in utility struggle because they keep their dogs out of trials while they are getting ready and then all of a sudden the dog is thrown back into trial conditions after months or even a year or more and they freak out.

I know there are obedience only people who would say that rally ruins your heeling, but I just don't get that. Heeling is heeling whether it is from a sign to a sign or a whole pattern. Heeling isn't really just about the dog walking in position. It is about the dog paying attention to what you are doing. Rally helps that happen because the dog doesn't know what is coming next. Sure you can talk to them, but you can plead or beg them to do the behaviors you want in advanced or excellent anyway. I usually just tell Lily sit or down or stand when we get to stationary signs and then tell her good dog when she does something especially nicely. I think obedience only folks think that rally is all about talking a blue streak at the dog. You can use the talking as much or as little as you want.

Here's another thing about obedience vs. rally. In obedience, in novice and in the open A and utility A classes, not only do you know exactly what the 5 or 6 exercises are, you know exactly the order they will happen in. In rally you could get any combination of many exercises and you don't know what they are until about 30 minutes in advance. The dog totally doesn't know what the rally exercises will be, so they really do have to pay attention to you in rally. Part of why it took a long time for me to finish open with Lily was that she memorized the A order so well that she started anticipating my orders (sending herself over the broad jump for example). Mind you I didn't practice the A order, but she learned it anyway at trials. Because of that I am going to do her UD in the B class so she doesn't get patterned on the A order. I think that rally is helping to understand that she shouldn't assume she knows what is next.

Rally is the only thing I can do with Peeves since he is not reliable for the group stays. I know I could do obedience in other venues with him, but there is only so much time and money in my world so AKC rally is his venue. I know the rules well. He doesn't have to try to ignore other dogs except getting to and from the ring and he gets to do things.

I do not think rally is easier. It is different. It may be that it used to be easier under the old rules and signs, but not anymore.

If you don't mind my asking, what FB group did this come up in? I don't pay very much attention to my FB account, but I wonder if it is a group I belong to. PM me if you don't want to say publicly.


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## CharismaticMillie

I really enjoy both.


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## poolann

Catherine I understand about the stationary exercises. It is really one area where Racer isn't prepared and it's going to be a long road to get him there. He just thinks prancing up and down the lineup is lots of fun. I think I could fine tune everything else fairly quickly.

My male shepherd couldn't tolerate the stand for exam. His anxiety is so bad now that we don't show in any venue. He has 2 RE Qs but it isn't worth it to me to make him miserable.


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## lily cd re

What is it with GSD anxiety? I guess their herding instincts to watch for external threats kicks into overdrive. At least I think that is it for Peeves. He just starts scanning around to look at everything else and I fade into the background.

With Lily for the stationary exercises I tell her whether it is a sit, down or stand to help her understand that it isn't obedience where a halt with no other information should be an automatic sit.


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## poolann

lily cd re said:


> What is it with GSD anxiety? I guess their herding instincts to watch for external threats kicks into overdrive. At least I think that is it for Peeves. He just starts scanning around to look at everything else and I fade into the background.
> 
> With Lily for the stationary exercises I tell her whether it is a sit, down or stand to help her understand that it isn't obedience where a halt with no other information should be an automatic sit.


Sorry when I said stationary I should have said group. Stationeries are fine in rally. It's the group exercises & it could be such a bad situation. With the shepherds if they broke they were coming to me. Not so with Racer lol


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## lily cd re

Yes groups can be hard with poodles too. They don't like to stay away from us very well, do they? My mom is having a hard time with stays with her boy right now. I've never had much problem with Lily for groups although I know she doesn't love them since she is often reluctant to go into the ring for them. Peeves wants to visit other dogs, that's why only rally for him.


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## Countryboy

lily cd re said:


> Rally helps that happen because the dog doesn't know what is coming next.


HA! Spud taught me Rally easily. I swear he could read the signs.


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## schpeckie

I saw Rally obedience at a local dog show about 2 years ago and thought this would be so much fun with Sadie. And it was, that she got her Rally Novice A title a few weeks ago. I was fortunate to see the obedience and utility & thought that is quite interesting too! I just wanted to do something with Sadie as a bonding experience for the both of us. Lacey on the other hand, would be just having a blast chasing around other dogs and being the little princess she is! So, it doesn't matter which one you choose - just have a great time with your pooch! The wet kisses tells it all!

Sylvia & the Girls!


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## mvhplank

poolann said:


> I'm just curious, how many of you have done rally & obedience? For those that only do obedience do you view rally as easier & less of a sport? <snip>


I haven't done a lot of rally with the poodle, but I've done tons with the rat terrier boy (UROG and UKC Rally All Stars two years running), and here's the difference I see:


First, think of a Rally course as one long, unbroken chain of behaviors. Sure, you can encourage your dog along the way, and in WCRL you can give a treat at stationary exercises, but you can't stop and say, "That's great!" and pet your dog until you're done--about 15 to 22 signs (depending on venue) later.

Second, think of Obedience as a series of short behavior chains broken by moments of encouragement and play or relaxation.

Devlin took a long time to finish his ARCHEX title in WCRL (when it was still APDT). The courses were very long and complex and I think he was at the edge of his comfort and capability. We're now playing around in CDSP at Utility level and I think he's a lot happier. We don't have any Qs yet, but he's having much more fun than we did in Rally.

I don't know yet whether Neely will be more comfortable in Rally or in Obedience, but I plan to try both. He does already have a UKC Rally 1 title--those courses are about the length and complexity of AKC courses. I'm going to hold off on entering him in WCRL until he's more reliable--the extra cues cost too much.  And he just finished his CDSP Novice title over the weekend (yay!).


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## lily cd re

mvhplank said:


> I haven't done a lot of rally with the poodle, but I've done tons with the rat terrier boy (UROG and UKC Rally All Stars two years running), and here's the difference I see:
> 
> *
> First, think of a Rally course as one long, unbroken chain of behaviors. Sure, you can encourage your dog along the way, and in WCRL you can give a treat at stationary exercises, but you can't stop and say, "That's great!" and pet your dog until you're done--about 15 to 22 signs (depending on venue) later.
> 
> Second, think of Obedience as a series of short behavior chains broken by moments of encouragement and play or relaxation.
> *[/B]
> 
> Devlin took a long time to finish his ARCHEX title in WCRL (when it was still APDT). The courses were very long and complex and I think he was at the edge of his comfort and capability. We're now playing around in CDSP at Utility level and I think he's a lot happier. We don't have any Qs yet, but he's having much more fun than we did in Rally.
> 
> I don't know yet whether Neely will be more comfortable in Rally or in Obedience, but I plan to try both. He does already have a UKC Rally 1 title--those courses are about the length and complexity of AKC courses. I'm going to hold off on entering him in WCRL until he's more reliable--the extra cues cost too much.  And he just finished his CDSP Novice title over the weekend (yay!).


Marguerite, that is a very interesting take on the differences between rally and obedience. You are spot on there.


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## Countryboy

Now be logical and think this thru. And here's my logic! 

When people think of a dog sport, what immediately comes to their minds, eh? Well it's Agility of course! Everybody's seen those cute, smart dogs zipping around and jumping over things... runnin' thru those tube things... across that plank thingy... stuff like that. The videos are everywhere! 

Obedience? Not too many videos of dogs in a sit/stay while their owners stand hidden for X minutes on the other side of a wall. Or finding the object that has their owner's scent on it. Boooooring....

Rally? Kinda cute but too much like wind-up dolls in a formalized waltz. Slightly less boring, and easy to practice at home, but still...

I'd be goin' for Agility. It's sexy!


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## mvhplank

Countryboy said:


> I'd be goin' for Agility. It's sexy!


Ha! No wonder there are so few men in obedience - - short attention span


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## poolann

Countryboy said:


> Now be logical and think this thru. And here's my logic!
> 
> When people think of a dog sport, what immediately comes to their minds, eh? Well it's Agility of course! Everybody's seen those cute, smart dogs zipping around and jumping over things... runnin' thru those tube things... across that plank thingy... stuff like that. The videos are everywhere!
> 
> Obedience? Not too many videos of dogs in a sit/stay while their owners stand hidden for X minutes on the other side of a wall. Or finding the object that has their owner's scent on it. Boooooring....
> 
> Rally? Kinda cute but too much like wind-up dolls in a formalized waltz. Slightly less boring, and easy to practice at home, but still...
> 
> I'd be goin' for Agility. It's sexy!


Lol CB. I do all 3. Personally watching rally or obd is like baseball....fun when you're playing but kinda like watching paint dry if you're not.


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## lily cd re

I do all three as well. Unless you do rally or obedience it is boring to watch. If you do these sports then watching a really good routine is a thing of beauty in my view. Agility always looks exciting, but it is not always what it seems to be. A dog can go off course or blow a contact and the untrained observer will still think it was great.


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## poolann

I think in agility & other sports if you know a team or have watched their struggles you can see improvements & celebrate them with a fellow handler. When I watch someone I know & see them feeling down about a performance I always point out a positive, great blind cross, nice start line stay, good contact on X, good attention through a specific section of heeling, great recall when the dog ran off, etc.


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## lily cd re

I agree poolann, when you know what to look for you will always find something good in a run. I was thinking more about the naive observer who just thinks they can show up with a dog and do agility without training. They really don't understand it. I recently ran a rally match at a canine experience event for a local kennel club. In addition to rally there was an obedience match a B match breed show and agility run thrus for the public. Lots more people were attracted to trying agility than rally because they think they can just get on a course and tell their dog "jump" and get them to do the obstacles. They are pretty surprised when Fluffy refuses to do anything other than run around like a wild thing.


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## poolann

lily cd re said:


> I agree poolann, when you know what to look for you will always find something good in a run. I was thinking more about the naive observer who just thinks they can show up with a dog and do agility without training. They really don't understand it. I recently ran a rally match at a canine experience event for a local kennel club. In addition to rally there was an obedience match a B match breed show and agility run thrus for the public. Lots more people were attracted to trying agility than rally because they think they can just get on a course and tell their dog "jump" and get them to do the obstacles. They are pretty surprised when Fluffy refuses to do anything other than run around like a wild thing.


Oh yeah. We did an agility demo for Proplan at a local Petsmart.(Funny since none of use would ever feed Proplan) It was a super short agility course that the public could try. Granted those of us that were there to assist were either trainers or pretty serious agility competitors so we were experienced in the sport. It was rather hilarious watching people try to get their dogs over a couple of jumps & some smaller obstacles. 

I agree given a choice I can't see many people trying rally


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## Countryboy

lily cd re said:


> They are pretty surprised when Fluffy refuses to do anything other than run around like a wild thing.


But if you manage to get Fluffy to run up and over the A-frame, or thru the tube... just once... you've got them hooked on Agility! MUAHAHAHA! :devil:


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## mashaphan

When I first saw Rally,I was terrified! My mind doesn't think that way..in fact my trainer had to rename some signs (360 became "circle left" or "circle right" which I grew up with!) And was DEFINITELY going to quit when the "new signs" appeared! Suffice it to say,now I think of Rally as our fun and obedience is WORK..it took me quite awhile to release my 1960's-70's training which was SERIOUS WORK/PRECISION for a dog to whom I cannot even speak sharply w/out a "forget this!" reaction:aetsch:

To each his own,but I do notice Rally people get very little respect by obedience folks,at least hereabouts. Even the photogs have dissed us!


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## lily cd re

I know any number of obedience folks who have decided to retire their older dogs to rally after finishing a UD or UDX who think it will just be so easy and then they find themselves surprised at how hard they have to work to get good scores. They think they will be the people who place without even trying. I like being able to support Lily and Peeves with a verbal good job along the way and generally think of rally as more fun, but it is not always easy.


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## mvhplank

lily cd re said:


> I know any number of obedience folks who have decided to retire their older dogs to rally after finishing a UD or UDX who think it will just be so easy and then they find themselves surprised at how hard they have to work to get good scores. They think they will be the people who place without even trying. I like being able to support Lily and Peeves with a verbal good job along the way and generally think of rally as more fun, but it is not always easy.


I think this is especially true for WCRL (formerly APDT) rally because of the longer courses than AKC and UKC and the score penalties for repeated cues or commands. I've actually retired my rally champion to CDSP obedience!


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## Countryboy

Now I gotta say that I had a good practice facility set up once or twice a week, and a very 'quick' dog. That little chocolate guy in my tag. So initially, Rally was easy. 

He was a wizz... a dozen practice sessions and we were off to the show. First leg of RN in the morning... second leg in the afternoon. I thot we'd polish this off and tried to sign up for the next morning but they were booked. 

So off to another show a few weeks later. I figured this would be a snap. Wound up with a Judge who told us she 'wanted to see bubbly'... lots of smiles and interaction between owners and dogs... everybody having FUN! 

I knew we were sunk right there and then. In the ring, Spud was the most alert dog I've ever seen. He didn't do 'bubbly'. He was more like a coiled, focused spring. And I'm taking great care to not make a wrong move throughout. He would go into a down/stay but move at the slightest flicker of my eye. I flickered too early... 

So Rally? Easy, peasy... just keep workin' on the 'bubbly'.


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## lily cd re

Frank, Spud sounds like a border collie in a poodle suit. I often think of Lily in those terms. She is very focused when she wants to be.


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