# Poodle Health Registry How Much Disease is too Much?



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope someone will respond to these excellent questions. Yay, you for doing the research. I will be following to read the answers.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Just stepping in with my opinion...

When I am researching pedigrees for potential stud dogs, I look at it like everything is relative. If a male has sired 10- 40 litters and is a "parent of" a pup with a disease, I go to "descendents" and see a) how many times he produced it and b) was it always with the same bitch or with a number of bitches. Then I look at the bitch's/bitches pedigrees and see how often that illness has been reported in her lines. Sometimes we discover that he has only produced a problem when bred to one line or one girl and the illness does not appear to be prevalent behind him at all, but is quite prevalent behind her. So then he becomes a whole lot less scary. The diversity people believe that addisons and SA are "fixed" in the breed now and that it is something we need to be mindful of when breeding, and try to choose mates on the outside or entirely outside the "cluster" of very typical Poodles, and to breed to dogs with different haplotypes. You can read about this here: Genetic diversity testing for Standard Poodles

Any dog who appears on PHR as being affected by something has had his/her issue verified by a vet, and nothing goes onto PHR in this vein without a vet's diagnosis and signature sent to PHR.

If you see a line where there are no illnesses reported, all that means is...nothing has been reported. There are NO clean lines. A lot of breeders do not encourage, or actually discourage or threaten a lawsuit with regard to clients reporting things. Some breeders feel that reporting or encouraging clients to report things brings about a "witch hunt" mentality.

And sadly, there are no quantifiable tests for a lot of the "nasties". You cannot know a breeding dog will produce Addisons or epilepsy until it does. And until we know with certainty that these illnesses are not mostly caused by environmental issues such as over immunization or flea and tick treatment, do we throw the baby out with the bath water?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Just stepping in with my opinion...


And you are????  lol

But ahhhh, PHR... Tonka's in there somewhere.

I've lost my password to her site so many times that I'm too embarrassed to ask again. I gotta quit changing computers.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

If you're going to go full nerd in your research (and I've been there, believe me), then go up one level and educate yourself about the UC Davis VGL diversity testing. The betterbred blogs aren't a bad place to start. 

It won't get you that much closer to insuring a healthy puppy, but since you said you're looking at COI, VGL has really made COI kind of obsolete in standard poodles. The short explanation is that the real bottleneck occurred many generations ago, so a 5 or even 10 gen pedigree and COI calculation don't tell you much. A breeding that looks like an outcross can be much closer than it appears. The converse can also happen. 

The other thing I would note is that PHR is really the tip of the iceberg. 

And as others have noted, health testing in standard poodles is the easy part; it is as much a signal that the breeder is doing her best as any strong predictor of a puppy's health. That's because we don't have any or good reliable tests for the stuff like Addison's and SA that really keep poodle people awake at night.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think it takes quite a bit of time and experience to be able to get a feel for PHR and to be able to look at the the information with a level head, a sense of context, and think about things in a meaningful way. Also you start filling in the blanks for the health issues *not* listed in PHR


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

What would the "nots" be for our further education? GVD, allergies?


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Verve said:


> If you're going to go full nerd in your research (and I've been there, believe me), then go up one level and educate yourself about the UC Davis VGL diversity testing. The betterbred blogs aren't a bad place to start.


Thanks for the explanation. My boy just completed VGL testing (he's a co-own future stud) and I've meant to read up on the results. The breeder is using them to help select future mates for all of her dogs.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

As others have said, it is difficult to get reliable information from phrdatabase. If you see a line with very few notes about diseases, it may well be a puppy mill line where people are typically not reporting. Certainly the majority of diseases are not reported.

IMO, the best info about poodle diseases is on the following site. Click any of the links under Health Testing on the left.
Poodles de Grenier

As noted in some of the other posts and in the poodlesdegrenier site, there is no test for the most serious problems that affect standard poodles (SA, Addisons, bloat and epilepsy). However, I do think that you significantly improve your odds by buying from a small-scale breeder who has developed a healthy line over time and knows what he/she is doing. Large scale breeders who are breeding for a living are under too much pressure to breed whatever poodles happen to be available to them. 

I know someone who bought two poodles many years ago from a breeder that she liked. But the breeder kept getting bigger and bigger, basically pumping out puppies at relatively low prices. My friend said that the quality of the dogs was going down hill and she knew of a number of dogs from that kennel that had both temperament and health problems. And they weren't as nice looking as they used to be. I mentioned this to my groomer (who is also a poodle breeder). She said that she groomed a poodle from that kennel and the poor dog had a laundry list of different health problems. Of course, even a good breeder can produce a puppy that ends up with Addisons, SA, or some other illness. But I do think that you improve your odds of getting a healthy dog by going to a small-scale breeder who knows the lines that she is breeding and is careful about selecting which dogs to breed.

Also good to avoid poodles that are highly inbred (though some may disagree with how important this is).


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## Entellechy (Jun 10, 2017)

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far. Arreau, I appreciate the tip to drill down into the pedigree to find out more about a specific disease. I was actually looking at that on some of them but got confused and gave up. It's nice to know I was in the right place. I also realize I have to take ALL factors into the decision not just health but the whole picture. A very important factor in my decision is the LOVE the pup will get from the breeder for the first 9 weeks of it's life =) 

Yes Verve I do tend to go ‘full nerd’ when I’m researching something. I work as a Computer Information Systems Specialist so that probably explains it hah hah! I can’t help it because it is so interesting but at the same time like going down a rabbit hole and getting lost in the information. It can be scary! I did check out the Grenier website and will follow up by trying to learn more about the VGL. Peppersb, the information regarding diseases on the Grenier site made a lot of sense. There are so many variables and some diseases are truly environmental not always Genetic. I feel better in many ways and I appreciate it =).


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Entellechy said:


> ... A very important factor in my decision is the LOVE the pup will get from the breeder for the first 9 weeks of it's life ...


I think that LOVE is one of the most important and overlooked things. The breeder needs to love the pups, and even more importantly, she/he needs to love the momma dog. A happy, secure, confident, well-fed and well-loved momma dog will pass that love and confidence on to her puppies. And as the pups get older, their little lives need to be filled with lots of experiences of people-love as well as momma-love.

Having raised a litter, I saw how much time it takes and how easy it would be to cut corners. One more reason not to buy from a big kennel. Make sure you buy from a breeder who has happy, well-loved momma dog and who has the time to love and support the momma and the puppies.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Mfmst said:


> What would the "nots" be for our further education? GVD, allergies?


I can't be certain, but I think Liz was referring to "the rest of the iceberg": all the conditions that occurred but weren't reported to PHR. This could be because the pup came from a sketchy breeder who didn't even bother to test, and the owners weren't knowledgeable enough to know about PHR. There is also admittedly a code of silence among many breeders AND a distinction between public and private disclosure. That latter point is important: there is a *lot* of information (reasonably verified, not gossip) that is discussed privately, and some breeders at least have VERY frank discussions about what is behind their lines when a possible breeding is being discussed. 

So, what's a pet buyer to do? I recommend becoming familiar, via the internet and dog shows, a set of breeders who generally seem to be producing what you are looking for. Shows are one way, although not the only way, that breeders get plugged into networks of information. Use the information you can see to find breeders who seem to share your values--this is where things get a bit squishy. You can't quantify honesty and integrity the way you can look at COIs. But a breeder who is breeding on a modest scale, active in the dog community, and is transparent about testing is a good place to start. Breeders and dog people who have the sort of dog you want are good places to start networking (as is Poodle Forum!). As a small scale breeder I LOVE pointing buyers towards breeders I trust. 

At some point in your conversation with a breeder, it's good and appropriate to inquire about what issues she's encountered. But that conversation will be more productive if you don't lead off with it, and if you couch it in terms of being more interested in how a breeder responded to a health issue than hearing that she has those mythical "clean lines."


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mfmst said:


> What would the "nots" be for our further education? GVD, allergies?


You mean the things not on PHR? Anything and everything. Addisons, epilepsy, SA, bloat, allergies, entropian. There's way more than what is on PHR..


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Verve has a great response!


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

WOW ... just wow! Great topic you introduced Entellechy. Thank you. This is one of the most informative threads with respect to health testing that I’ve read so far on PF.

Peppersb thanks for the link to Poodles de Grenier. With respect to health testing et.al, they have provided the most useful information I have yet found anywhere. Even without understanding the breakdown of all the tests, their summary page pretty well sums it up. But also of huge importance is peppersb’s follow-up comment regarding breeder love. Sometimes I feel we herd ourselves down a path we don’t fully understand and become so enamoured of it that we forget the other critical pieces of our own common sense.


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## Entellechy (Jun 10, 2017)

I agree Bevvie! When the breeder Loves the puppies (and Mom) they will all feel valued and worthy of getting and giving love. I think that is why so many breeders stress the fact that they are not Kennels (or gosh forbid - Puppy Mills) and their dogs live in the house with them along with the puppies.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

So here's the thing: from my experience, the vast majority of breeders do love their dogs and their puppies. And those few that don't, will tell you they will. So as a buyer, I think you need to look for signs of a breeder dedicated to her dogs' and puppies' welfare. In particular, I would look for signs that the breeder is working to provide the puppies with a good start by providing an enriching environment. Look for whelping and older puppy areas full of toys and other sources of enrichment, and look for evidence that puppies are spending time outdoors and in different physical environments. 



Entellechy said:


> I agree Bevvie! When the breeder Loves the puppies (and Mom) they will all feel valued and worthy of getting and giving love. I think that is why so many breeders stress the fact that they are not Kennels (or gosh forbid - Puppy Mills) and their dogs live in the house with them along with the puppies.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Verve said:


> So here's the thing: from my experience, the vast majority of breeders do love their dogs and their puppies. And those few that don't, will tell you they will. So as a buyer, I think you need to look for signs of a breeder dedicated to her dogs' and puppies' welfare. In particular, I would look for signs that the breeder is working to provide the puppies with a good start by providing an enriching environment. Look for whelping and older puppy areas full of toys and other sources of enrichment, and look for evidence that puppies are spending time outdoors and in different physical environments.


I actually think that there are a lot of unloved breeding dogs out there. Of course, there are a lot of wonderful breeders who do a great job of loving their breeding dogs and their puppies. But there are also a lot of breeders who view their dogs as sources of income and who do not love and cherish their dogs. Three of the saddest dogs I have ever seen were breeder dogs. They were owned by breeders that were trying to make a living by selling puppies. 

So my advice to puppy buyers:
-- Go meet the breeder and the momma dog before you make a decision. See where the breeding dogs live. Look into the momma dog's eyes. If she looks sad, walk away.
-- Ask Verve or other trusted breeders for recommendations. As Verve described in post #12, good small scale breeders tend to know each other and can point you in the right direction.
-- Stay away from large-scale puppy producers.


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## Entellechy (Jun 10, 2017)

I have to agree with peppersb. As an example I will share an experience while i was watching short videos of past litters posted by a breeder. It was a video taken in the house and the puppies were playing. The tv was on in the background and someone was talking. They said something like ... If that happens again, I wonder who is going to die first. Since i was watching the puppies i had assumed they were talking about them but maybe not. Heh heh I turned it off just in case though.?


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

A little bit on health from the late Helen King. I was referred to her writings while searching for the perfect poodle puppy.

Helen King on Structure Evaluation | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I think my observation is based on being a part of an AMAZING canine repro group on FB. Despite having thousands of members and dealing with a fraught topic, it has the highest signal-to-noise ratio of any group I've ever been a part of. In addition to learning a huge amount, I've been struck by how incredibly dedicated and emotionally involved all those breeders are. Some are show breeders, some are involved in sports, others may just breed for pets. Are they a self-selected group? Perhaps. But it's a pretty large crowd of breeders pouring heart, soul, and considerable resources into breeding. 

I think when we focus on one breed, we're quick to judge and sort out those we "approve" of and those we don't based on their alignment with our own breeding goals. I think that is entirely appropriate when we as breeders are choosing mentors, breeding partners, and making breeding decisions. And while I have occasionally made those judgements based on welfare concerns, there are usually other red flags that would rule out those breeders anyway. 

Wow, this has gotten long-winded and philosophical! I would just finish with two points. While there are unquestionably terrible breeding conditions occuring in commercial breeding facilities and with small to medium-scale breeders, they get a lot of publicity, while the thousands of small-scale breeders breeding with love and dedication don't. And secondly, you as a conscientious puppy buyer would probably rule out the vast majority of those breeders right off the bat, just as you wouldn't go into a seedy bar looking for Mr. Right. 

All that said, I also think that pictures can be more revealing than happy words on a FB page or website. Posed puppy pictures, especially with cutesy props, don't tell you anything about how the dam or puppies live. Pictures and videos of puppy pens and adult dogs do. 

If you've made it this far, you've earned a cute puppy picture! :aetsch: This is one of my favorites from my litter last summer, of one of my puppies exploring a friend's hair. 



Entellechy said:


> I have to agree with peppersb. As an example I will share an experience while i was watching short videos of past litters posted by a breeder. It was a video taken in the house and the puppies were playing. The tv was on in the background and someone was talking. They said something like ... If that happens again, I wonder who is going to die first. Since i was watching the puppies i had assumed they were talking about them but maybe not. Heh heh I turned it off just in case though.?


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## Entellechy (Jun 10, 2017)

Thank you so much Verve for your insight and also your patients when explaining your opinion to all of us. There is a saying a picture speaks a thousand words. You are correct in saying ... pay attention to the pictures.

Also thanks to scooterscout99 for the link on structure. It was very similar to what they say makes a good horse. :act-up:

I am so glad I found this forum.


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