# Cannot find reasonable toy priced breeder



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

$2500-4000 (US) is what we'll bred toy poodles cost. What do you consider reasonable?


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome! Congratulations to you on taking steps for your healing and growth . 

Tom is right about the pricing, if you want a well bred puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder who breeds to the official breed standards, does the correct health testing recommended by the official Poodle Breed Club, and will stand behind you and that pup for his or her lifetime. Your mission is to be able to discern a quality breeder from someone who's running a volume or backyard business. 

Something to be aware of is that weight is not a criteria in the breed standard, height at the shoulder is what defines the three varieties (genetics too but that's another post). 

It would be impossible for any breeder to give a guarantee of what height a pup will grow to due to prior ancestors and the weight should be proportionate to structure and height. 

Many of us have poodles, miniature or toy, that have grown "oversize". That is, they're born of two toys or two miniatures genetically but exceed that height criteria for the variety. 



It sounds like researching and selecting breeders might be a new experience for you. In case this is correct, I'm adding a tips list for you, sort of a crash course. 

You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

A quality breeder isn't location dependent. Their characteristics are the same everywhere. I'll add some Canada-specific info at the end. FYI, the health testing recommended by the Poodle Club of America and the Poodle Club of Canada is essentially the same. 

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for miniatures and toys there is also one DNA test.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $4000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid but everyone's costs have gone up.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be wary of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells on commercial/retail/broker sites.*
They are often a for profit business and are not doing this for the good of the poodle breed. Having a state or USDA license is _not_ a selling point. It's more a caution flag.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_*Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred.*_


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down. 

*Canadian Resources

Canadian Kennel Club*
CKC | Purebred Puppies, Dog Competitions, Show Dog Events | CKC
*Poodle Club Of Canada*
Poodle – Poodle club of Canada
*Ottawa Valley Poodle Club*
Ottawa Valley Poodle Club – Serving Ottawa and Surrounding Areas
*Poodle Club of Ontario*
Poodle Club Of Ontario
*Poodle Club of Alberta*
Poodle Club of Alberta
*Canada’s Guide to Dogs - Poodle*
Standard Poodle Clubs - Canada's Guide to Dogs


*Breeder Listings

Multi Provinces

Poodle Club of Canada Breeder List*
Microsoft Word - PCC2022Breeders 3 20 22.doc (poodleclubcanada.club)
*Canadian Kennel Club Breeder List*
Puppy List & Approved Breeders | CKC
*Ottawa Valley Poodle Club Breeder List*
Breeder Listing – Ottawa Valley Poodle Club


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

There is saying pay the breeder or pay the vet. 
That is true.
A tell of two dogs
I got a lovely poodle pup for $750 in 2014, I adored Beatrice, she had an unnecessarily uncomfortable and at painful short life. Bad knees $8000 to repair, early chronic kidney disease, umbilical hernia, bouts of incontinence, she was diagnosed with a rare terminal cancer at age 5, at 6 she was diagnosed with thyroid disease at 7 diagnosed with mucocel gallbladder and liver failure, she died at 7 1/2, I miss her still.

I got a poodle pup in 2017 for $2500, high priced for back then. Leonard comes from a champion show breeder,  from 10 generations of champion and grand champion show dogs, Leonard is a show dogwash out at 11" just too tall. 
Leonard is healthy, beautiful and a lovely temperament .

Save up, avoid the heartache, and get that well bred puppy.


----------



## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

You should look for health, temperament and conformation. That is proven, when a breeder shows, participates in agility etc. Poodles live for 15 + years, so you want them to have as healthy and pain-free a life as possible. The heartache @twyla describes is worth the effort to avoid, both for you and most importantly the pup. Good luck in your search.


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Money is not an issue that many of us can ignore. And owning a dog is expensive too. So perhaps you should make a reasonable budget that will let you enjoy your dog and not worry about its care. Then find a dog that fits that budget. 

Well-bred poodles are expensive. But poorly bred poodles are even more costly.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

NatB79 said:


> Good day Poodle Lovers
> I am so thrilled and thankful to have found a message board dedicated to poodles lovers!!! I am looking for a red or brown toy poodle in Canada that is not ridiculously over priced. I have gotten out of a very abusive and painful situation and I am so proud of myself and ready to love on a new puppy. I am more comfortable smaller breeds so 10lbs max weight any suggestions???


Congratulations on surviving and being able to leave an abusive situation. You deserve something good to happen.

But reality is a well bred poodle, especially in the latest trendy color (red/brown) is expensive. As a buyer people often don't realize the expenses that a quality breeder has even before they decide to breed their dogs. They themselves paid a lot of money to get started in conformation - you have to start with quality foundation. It's expensive to train your dogs - take classes, huge amount of socialization to have a dog who allows strangers to exam them in places most don't want touched. The dogs have to be at least two years old and have very specific tests performed, some of which are expensive. The eye exam is annually. They may have invested all this money only to find at two years old when they take the hip xrays that the dog is unsuitable for breeding. Even finding the right male dog to mate with your female can be expensive. It's not unusual for a quality breeder to travel several or more states to find the right dog with the right characteristics to breed a quality puppy.

Please don't buy from cruel puppy mills - the prices may be lower but you may be buying and expensive problem and you don't want to encourage their cruel practice. You may also buy a dog with many physical and social issues due to lack of care of the mother and conditions underwhich the puppy was raised.

Sadly this cost and problem affect other breeds as well, not just poodles.

If you can't afford a well bred puppy immediately - see if you can save up for one. Or look for a dog from a local shelter who is in need of a loving home.

I'm sorry this is probably not what you wanted to hear. You are not alone. I do wish you the best in your search for the perfect puppy. And if you have more questions, people here love to help as best we can.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome! You have indeed found the place for poodle lovers.  You’ve gotten some great advice above. Just wanted to pop in and say hi and that I am so happy you are out of a bad situation. Onward!


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

The posts above are excellent. Here is one additional thought: sometimes a toy or miniature poodle who was intended for show grows too tall. That dog might be available for a lesser price than a puppy but it would have had the benefit of careful breeding and the additional benefit of training. Sometimes a breeder has a female who simply did not produce the type/quality of puppies the breeder wanted. Or maybe it's a female who has had 2-3 litters and the breeder is an ethical person who will not breed too many times. Again, such a dog is a real bargain! So I suggest you be open to an older dog, not just a puppy. This assumes you are planning to purchase from a breeder who is striving to produce the best possible dogs.


----------



## NatB79 (8 mo ago)

Wow!!! I am so grateful and blown away with all the information and comments from the members... !!! Yes puppy mills scare the crap outta me so I won't be doing that LOL. I'm going to check out the clubs in my area and also the rest of Canada. I've had other small breeds but never a poodle. I'm ok with color fading as I know this is very common and the weight going over 10lbs is definitely not a deal breaker for me. Yes I am also seeing how popular the reds are now so I am open to brown also. And I don't mind a rescue at all, we will grow together and heal eachother hell we will ever match as I have natural brown thick curly hair too lol... again guys a million thanks i am so so grateful... you guys rock!!! Ps I was aiming for 1500$ to 2000$ range


----------



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

NatB79 said:


> Wow!!! I am so grateful and blown away with all the information and comments from the members... !!! Yes puppy mills scare the crap outta me so I won't be doing that LOL. I'm going to check out the clubs in my area and also the rest of Canada. I've had other small breeds but never a poodle. I'm ok with color fading as I know this is very common and the weight going over 10lbs is definitely not a deal breaker for me. Yes I am also seeing how popular the reds are now so I am open to brown also. And I don't mind a rescue at all, we will grow together and heal eachother hell we will ever match as I have natural brown thick curly hair too lol... again guys a million thanks i am so so grateful... you guys rock!!! Ps I was aiming for 1500$ to 2000$ range


You have to think about the economics too of breeding smaller dogs too. Smaller dogs have smaller litters, like ~2 pups. Bitches can only go into heat so many times in their life, ethically. So a larger dog, like a standard poodle might have 8-11 puppies a litter, and maybe have 4 litters.. 32+ pups. A smaller mpoo or tpoo bitch might maybe have 10 total babies. 

So, a breeder should charge more especially if demand is still the same simply because the supply is less. The same amount of time is required from the breeder.

Low supply, high demand = high price
High supply, high demand = average price

If I were in your shoes then I would exercise delayed gratification and save an extra $3k more so I wouldn't feel like money was a limiting factor in my decision. It's not like we buy a puppy everyday.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

By limting your search by color, it might take you even longer to find a puppy, I am on a wait list a silver beige toy girl from a very respected breeder, I got a the wait in January and will not see a puppy until sometime in 2023, if I wanted another white boy I could have had one from my boy's breeder recently he even had a little red boy, all had come available because buyers backed out.
I am willing to wait for my girl.


----------



## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

I'm in east coast US, I was looking for a mini and the price I got from reputable show breeders range from $2500 to $3500 during the past three years. I guess toys should be a little bit higher, so I second Tom too. Anything more than $4000-$5000 would be a red flag for me actually. Some backyard breeders or puppy mills may go up to around $2000.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Keep in mind the OP is from Canada. The price range they’ve cited is about $1,100 - $1,500 USD.

@NatB79, unfortunately that’s not a realistic price tag for a toy poodle from good beginnings. And rescue toy poodles may as well be unicorns.  Extremely unlikely you’ll find one before it’s snapped up.

Sadly, scammers and puppy brokers _love_ to pose as rescues or as individuals needing to rehome a “beloved pet.” So definitely beware. My friend got burned this way.

I wonder if fostering might be a good option for you right now. Is that something you’ve considered? Sharing space with a dog in need is so rewarding.


----------



## power puff pups (Jul 23, 2021)

NatB79 said:


> Ps I was aiming for 1500$ to 2000$ range


I don't know too much about CA poodle market, but in US, this falls in the typical range for toy/mini poodles from puppy brokers. 

We were originally looking for a red/apricot, but ended up with a brown (with fading gene, so may be end up being cafe au lait). Good breeders have very limited numbers of available pups each year, so after trying for a long period, we decided to go with any color except for white. We're very happy about our brown girl, she looks stunning and unique! I believe that finding a good breeder (who at least is experienced and does tests on parents) is more important than other factors. 

Good luck!


----------



## NatB79 (8 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Keep in mind the OP is from Canada. The price range they’ve cited is about $1,100 - $1,500 USD.
> 
> @NatB79, unfortunately that’s not a realistic price tag for a toy poodle from good beginnings. And rescue toy poodles may as well be unicorns.  Extremely unlikely you’ll find one before it’s snapped up.
> 
> ...


"The price range they’ve cited is about $1,100 - $1,500 USD."
No I was aiming for 1500$ to 2000$ I know I would never find anything for 1000$ LOL AND I am open to brown colored also I had no idea the 'reds' where a trendy color... Imagine my surprise LOL .... Again a MILLION thanks for all the comments and suggestions... I will wait and keep on looking, I think ill go on a waiting list as suggested and save up those coins... I had a chihuahua for 14 yrs so I guess I was just missing my little partner in crime, but I will wait for what the Universe send me... Hell I made this far LOL... Also I am from Canada so the prices I've noticed are a bit different, I check out some Canadian Poople Clubs... So I am armed with loads of information now


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

NatB79 said:


> "The price range they’ve cited is about $1,100 - $1,500 USD."
> No I was aiming for 1500$ to 2000$


Since you’re in Canada, I was converting to U.S. dollars for our American members, to ensure we were comparing apples to apples.

Or did you mean USD?


----------



## NatB79 (8 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Since you’re in Canada, I was converting to U.S. dollars for our American members, to ensure we were comparing apples to apples.
> 
> Or did you mean USD?


No I meant 2000$ Canadian (CND) 😊


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

NatB79 said:


> No I meant 2000$ Canadian (CND) 😊


Lol! Okay then.  So that works out to about $1,500 USD.


----------



## NatB79 (8 mo ago)

I gotcha 😊


----------

