# 15 week old puppy biting and growling



## milliesmom

I need some help with my spoo. She is 15 weeks old and we have had her since she was 7 weeks old(I know now that I should have waited until 8 weeks...didnt know then). We have had problems with her biting since she was about 8 weeks old. We have tried everything in the book but now that she has really started teething she is even worse. She bites hard even after 8 weeks of bite inhibition training. We have taken her around many people and she bites all of them. So she cannot even be properly socialized because we have to pull her away from everyone because she wont stop biting them HARD! We are taking her to a puppy class starting Jan 3rd. I am only taking her because I am hoping being around other dogs and people will calm her down. Other than the biting she is perfect, she is pretty much housebroke, knows sit, down, come, and turn in a circle. Will this ever end?! I am afraid she will never be reliable around other people! HELP!!!!


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## fjm

How are you doing the bite inhibition training? I do think it is easier to manage if the pup has spent enough time with her siblings to have learned the basics - was she by any chance one of a small litter? 

If the basic scream-and-turn-away every time the teeth hurt is not working, you may need to institute a brief time out. I used to mutter long, pained rigmaroles to myself about how much it hurt, and I was not going to play with horrible bitey pups, and generally behaved like a grumpy six year old. Then after a few seconds when the pup was sitting back and staring at me, I would start the game again, all bright and fun until the next nip, and the next withdrawal. But mine were small, and got the message very quickly.

How is she when taking treats? Is the nipping just out of excitement when playing and greeting, or is she using it to protect her space and get people to leave her, or her possessions, alone?


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## LegalEagle

What type of bite inhibition training are you doing? I used Ian Dunbar's method and it works like a charm. Now, even when Laszlo is excited, playing tug or something, he is gentle with his mouth. When there is the least sting, usually due to accidental contact, and I say "Ouch," he immediately sits and waits for permission to recommence play.

Your dog needs to know that when she bites too hard, the fun stops. If she is biting hard, do NOT try to stop all mouthing. Let her mouth you, but when she actually hurts you, yelp "Ouch!" Make her stop playing, perform a sit, a down and a come or "touch" and then start playing again. If she bites too hard in the same play session, end the game immediately, and maybe confine her for a few minutes behind a baby gate or something as a time out. That way she learns that when she hurts you, the fun is over. Also, a puppy playgroup would be great. The other puppies will let her know when she has crossed the line, she'll have fun and you'll be able to spare your arms!


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## milliesmom

Thank you for your responces so far. To work with bite inhibition I have done the following:
-used a high pitched yelp(I also used many other pitches to see if any would work)
-growled at her(this one worked for a little while and then stopped)
-ignored her for a little while
-told her NO BITE and held her mouth
-gave her a different command and then try to pet her again(didn't work)
- held the top of her mouth under her teeth so she bites herself (she didn't even care)
- rewarded her when she wasn't biting
-put bitter apple on my hands

I am afraid I will never have a dog I can trust not to bite people-when she bites she actually does damage-she can really hurt someone(I have cuts and teeth punctures all over my skin). This is really not great because I wanted to train her to be a therapy dog. I have trained dogs in the past who have let little kids hold them and sleep on them as a pillow when they are older. I am not new to training. I just can't seem to get this biting under control. I have never had a SPOO before, just mixed breeds and a toy poodle that I got from a backyard breeder before I knew better(that was the best dog, he let kids hold him in any way and he loved it...even toddlers would play with him). Is this problem common around SPOO's? 

She knows the command off but blows me off when she is biting me.


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## LegalEagle

Here are my two cents, based on very little experience, but a lot of reading. Hopefully people who know more what they are talking about more will chime in soon.

I would stop the growling and mouth holding, as that may work her up further. I also wouldn't use the bitter apple, as you want her to like getting food and toys from your hand. 

I would combine the yelping with a down-stay for a good 5 seconds. Putting her in a down will reinforce her deference to you. Then play more. You've got to do this every time. Make her wait until you say it's okay to play again. If she leaves the down-stay, keep putting her back into it until she stays there. It may take several reps if she is keyed up but it'll eventually work.

If she keeps biting and won't stop, put her by herself for 5-10 minutes in a long-term confinement area. I would NOT use a crate for this, but that's just me. 

Have you had a chance to look at the link I put in before? DogStar Daily is a great resource. I'm telling you, our mini was super mouthy as a puppy, and after we followed Dr. Dunbar's method, he's as good as gold as far as mouthing and biting are concerned. The key is, you want to reduce the pressure of the bites BEFORE you get the dog to stop biting entirely. Otherwise, she's an accident waiting to happen.


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## MaryLynn

I did not deal with mouthing at all with my poodle puppy, but our terrier was quite the mouther. He learned to stop through two methods, which we used consistently. It may take a bit to get results, but we would redirect his mouthing to a toy and we would praise him and reward his urge to bite being directed to the proper outlet. Second thing we would do would be end the fun. If he kept biting, we would put our hands behind our backs and not look at him, the attention would just stop. He figured out pretty fast that no one was going to play with him if he kept butting fingers and feet etc in his mouth.


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## lily cd re

I agree with LegalEagle about Ian Dunbar's methods. Ouch when it hurts and stop the play. Make the pup do something (sit or down) as a calming time out activity. I didn't see an answer to fjm's question about the size of the litter your pup is from. I think a very small litter where your pup didn't have enough rough and tumble time with many siblings is more of an issue than taking the puppy at seven weeks instead of eight. Don't delay dealing with this! Read Ian Dunbar about developmental windows of opportunity.


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## milliesmom

Thank you for all of your replies! I tried the ouch and turn away again. Then giving her a command after five seconds. This actually helped a lot! I tried this before when she was younger but maybe now that she is a little older she is understanding what I am telling her a little bit. The real challenge is going to be seeing if it works with others. My friend has a Golden Retreiver Puppy who is the same age as mine...born 3 days apart, and she is having the same problem. That makes me feel like hopefully she will continue to get better and grow out of it with our help. She was from a litter of 9 puppies. I did read that retreivers tend to be more mouthy and she comes from a line of strong retreiving poodles. I am really hoping that the puppy class and getting her to see that meeting new people isnt such a big deal is what really helps end this though because we still have a long way to go.


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## lily cd re

Actually now that I am thinking about it Lily was really mouthy and would give puppy bites lots when she was about that age. She is a die hard retriever, so maybe that is part of the explanation. I think having her and Peeves being around the same age helped. They reminded each other about bite inhibition. Maybe your pup and the friend's golden can have play dates where you let them rough house a bit, with proper supervision to disengage if it gets too excited.

I'm glad to hear you feel you are making progress. Keep at it.


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## Chagall's mom

*milliesmom*: My mpoo came to live with us when he was 9 weeks old. From about 12 weeks on he was _the mouthiest pup_ I'd had in 40 years of owning dogs. He was one in a litter of four. I did pretty much what LegalEagle suggested. First though I had to jettison my visible frustration with my chomping pup, and then prevail upon everyone who had contact with him to be as consistent with his training as I was endeavoring to be. THAT was the hardest part! (My dh was the worst offender, he could not restrain himself from playing "poke a finger in the pup's face and watch him nip." Small wonder I had a biter, eh?!)

I also found that striking the right balance between giving my pup enough exercise, but not too much, which would amp him up and make him more bitey, was key. I saw the pattern; if he was too excited or tired but unwilling to settle, he nipped more. Redirecting him, withdrawing attention and reinforcing when he used his mouth appropriately ultimately paid off. There are still sleeves on some of my sweaters that bear the scars of those early days, but happily I now have a poodle with a reliably soft mouth who gently takes treats and food out of hand and never lays teeth on anyone. You might want to try hand-feeding your pup for a while. And then putting her food in a treat ball or puzzle so she has to work for it, it's great mental exercise. If you're not already doing it, you might also try instituting a firm but fair program of Nothing In Life Is Free (NILF) to make her work for everything and anything; attention, petting, getting in or out of her crate, etc., by asking a behavior of her (sit, down, etc.) and having her offer it before she gets what she wants. Good luck taming "the shark.":clover:


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## Lou

Wow.. I hadnt noticed that Lou is a bit mouthy really... Until I read this... She doesnt bite hard at all, but sometimes she will try to hold your hand in her mouth in between canine teeth while licking it.. LOL. I feel that in her case its because she doesnt have arms to hug u, and she is so happy to see u, she wants to taste your hands and old it... Hehe she is 7 months old now, but I got her when she was 3.5 months old, she had plently of time to play with siblings, but she is just one excited beast when someone she knows walks in the house, not just love bites, but running in circles and gently jumping on them ( not putting weight ob front paws) we are workin on all this. About the biting since day1 I was VERY clear about rules, ANY time she did something/ or was about to do something wrong a firm AH-AH!! or NO! was said, so she has been an amazingly well behaved dog except for these 2 excitement related things. So when she bit in the beginning I did the ouch or the sound of a yelp of a puppy, she immediately stopped and started lucking my face and wagging her tail like "Im sorry, Im sorry.." rhe sound of a puppy cry + ouch worked better for us, she still likes to mouth hands but way gentler - sorry i typed so much!! Whew!! 


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## lily cd re

To reinforce some of what has already been said we know this is a really important issue. Part of Ian Dunbar's puppy training method is to make them work for all their food. You hand feed some of it in your training work. The rest should be given in a stuffed kong. This way pup learns not to bite the hand that feeds and also learns to direct chewing at something appropriate instead of your furniture, shoes etc. If I had known all this when Lily and Peeves were puppies I might not have had such issues with her or have had to spackle the corners of many walls where they both chewed them. "Run, don't walk" to dogstardaily.com and get those books (What to do before/after you get your puppy)! They are *free*.


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## Rusty

*Thanks for good advice!*

I just wanted to say thanks to the original poster and everyone who's offered advice. We've been working with our 3 month old spoo puppy since 8 weeks on bite inhibition, and even though I feel like we're making progress using the "ouch" and turn away methods and "sit" calm down breaks, I still feel myself getting frustrated when we're playing (and he's excited) and he gets nippy. So, it's really helpful for me to know that (a) we're not alone with this behaviour! and (b) persistence with our training should eventually pay off (i.e. we're using good methods, but I need to keep my expectations realistic and expect to keep up the training for another few months, too).

For me,personally, I think keeping my expectations of my young puppy realistic is one of the most important and sometimes challenging things.


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## lily cd re

The other thing you have to do (aside from having realistic expectations) is not to get worked up yourself. If you have high energy the puppy will too. One of the things that eventually helped me deal with all the crazy things Lily did when she was little was to learn how to truly be calm around her. You cannot lie to your dog about the mood you are in. If you are stressed so are they. If you are calm they are calm. Realizing this has greatly improved many aspects of my life and allowed me to have insight into why dogs are good for your health.


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## CT Girl

This is such an important topic. Lou I understand what you mean about the soft mouth Han holding but for safety sake a no teeth on skin is a better policy IMO. Visitors may be put off or frightened by this behavior. I had an Aussie. My breeder warned me without proper training they can be very mouthy - that is one technique the use when herding. She told me about yelping and hand feeding and turning away. Zack went from a very bitey puppy to never touching teeth to skin in a relatively short amount of time. He came from a litter of eight and we brought him home at eight weeks. Swizzle only had one litter mate but he almost never mouthed right from the get go. Lily cd re has an excellent point about staying calm. I notice this even in agility and obedience class. When the owner gets wound up so does the dog. People who pause take a breath and center themselves help their dog settle so they can listen.


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## msminnamouse

I'm not a big fan of making OUCH noises for most dogs because it can reinforce the biting if you become a squeaky toy. If I do use them, I do it in an unexcited tone of voice to indicate that their mouthing is becoming too rough and they need to direct it else where. 

Set the dog up for success. Try to head off the biting before it happens. I like to redirect onto a toy. When you have a puppy or a new dog, you need to have these stashed all over the house and even try to carry one on you. When you see that he's going to mouth, stick a toy in his mouth. Toys are a good outlet for mouthing and humans aren't. Reinforce when he self directs onto toys. He should learn that you're off limits to mouth. 

Or if you don't mind a bit of gentle mouthing on you, let him gentle mouth on you and when you feel it becoming more, that's when you direct him onto a toy. 

We play bitey with Ginger, where she bites our attacking hands and when she gets the urge to really munch and shake, she runs away and grabs a squeaky toy to take out out her urge on. She's learned to reserve gentle mouthing for people and hard urges for toys as an appropriate outlet. 

If a dog easily gets over stimulated and mouth crazy, it's best to set a no mouth on at all on humans rule. Toys or chews should be the ONLY outlet for mouthing in this case. 

That being said, poodles, especially standard poodles are VERY mouthy dogs. Just a breed characteristic. I frequently have them take me by the hand and just hold my hand while we're walking. It's as gentle as can be. No pulling or chewing involved. Mouthing doesn't have to be a bad thing if you teach, and they can grasp the concept of inhibition. A lot of people don't understand that a dog using their mouth doesn't always equal aggression. They use their mouths like we use our hands. So it's good to teach an off cue if they want to mouth your guests.

Sorry, but holding the muzzle and all that really makes no sense because it can become a fun game of muzzle grab. A lot of dogs love this. And if you do succeed in making it painful or just unpleasant enough, you can teach the dog to bite in self defense. Then they might go right to defensive bites right away, expecting you to do something to make them uncomfortable.


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## fjm

I think it is very important that Ouch! signals that the game stops. Dogs are very good at these instant, brief timeouts - I remember as a child Pax was our word meaning we needed to break off to catch breath, or because things were getting too rough, and dogs have signals to convey the same message. Turning away, moving hands etc out of reach, and paying the dog no attention for a few seconds make it clear that painful nips bring the game to an end. Children need careful supervision for just this reason - they are prone to run away squealng and flapping and generally behaving like the most exciting prey object toy imaginable!

My dogs have (at least) two different kinds of yelp when playing - one means "Ouch, that hurt!, and brings the game to an abrupt halt while the other dog makes conciliatory signals, the second seems to be the equivalent of a human giggle, and encourages games of mouth wrestling and gentle bitey bitey. I think Owww! is a sound humans make instinctively that dogs can easily come to recognise as meaning the same as the Ouch yelp they use themselves.


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## Lou

CT I agree, we are working on it. She is in a 2 week. Board and train rigjt now (i miss her ) but she already knows mant commands so they will be able to work on advanced and basic things, hope it helps, but just to make it clear: its very gentle when she hold my hand and If I pull a bit she lets go, but I still want that habbit to go away and also the crazy excitement when she sees someone she knows! lol


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## msminnamouse

Uh oh, board and train? I hope you researched this very, very carefully. A lot of those places are bad news.


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## Lou

Yup! LOVE the place! Above and beyond my expectations, the other few places I checked were indeed scary, but well... Yesterday all the doggies had their picture taken with Santa! Awww ... She looks filthy cause she is having so much fun and went potty in the rain, but they brush her everyday...etc... 


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## Ryker-&-Canyon

LegalEagle, I want to thank you for the link. My guys are not home yet and I have been trying to learn as much as I can before their arrival. I put Dog Star Daily in my bookmarks. What a wonderful resource.


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## fjm

I would have two concerns about board-and-train - firstly, are they using the positive, reward based methods that I would consider essential with a pup, but also secondly, why is it necessary to take a dog away from the owner to be trained in the first place? Training is so much a matter of the relationship between dog and owner that I cannot really understand how a short course with someone else can work in the long term - if the owner is unable or unwilling to put the time and energy into training, surely anything learned will quickly be undermined as soon as the dog gets home? Most of the classes I have taken my dogs to have been at least as much about training the owner as training the dog ....


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## MaryLynn

I agree with FJM, the training is just as much for the owners as the dog. It won't do much good if your dog is trained, but you aren't.

My dad adopted a 3 year old female golden retriever this fall, she had advanced obedience training and she is almost a complete spaz/wreck now since they don't seem to be keeping up with it (or exercising her enough-which is crazy since they live on an absolutely HUGE farm with fields, and woods, etc).

I have been working with her a little bit when I can, but she seems to be progressively 'worse' every time I see her.


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## Lou

In 3.5 months I have already taught Lou about 25 different commands, (she is a little genious, well a big genious!And I Think she doesnt need to learn much more to be a good well behaved dog LOL) the board and train/play is more for socializing. They introduce 3 new people each day, take them to stores if u want them to, play with many other dogs etc... Do a physical exam each day, for them to get used to being touched anywhere by strangers, brush them etc etc etc,... Lou was attacked by 2 dogs at 4 months of age, so this is mainly to overcome mild fear of dogs, which she has been accomplishing! :-D


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## milliesmom

Lou- There are many board and train programs that are wonderful! I had a toy poodle, who for the life of me, I could not get a reliable recall, and he also had serious separaton anxiety. I tried and tried to train him with no luck for these two things...everything else he was great at. I sent him to a great place 8 hours away to a reputable training program and they trained him for three weeks. The trainer and I spoke regularly and she helped me know how to use the techniques she used. I got my dog back and I was so happy, he would come when called and heel off leash beautifully with many distractions. I think it actually helped him to be taken out of his normal enviornment to learn these new behaviors.


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## Lou

Milliesmom, thank you!! LOL  Im glad it worked out for you guys as well !! 


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## Lou

Lou is back!! Hair hair is soooo long LOL her face looks funny, big head! LOL - way too much hair haha, so happy to have her here and being even more obedient, and they said she is totally not afraid of dogs anymore!!! Played with several of them at once! And not jumping on people at all so far :-D 


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## meredian

I want to say another thank you to the original poster and the advice. I was just about to come on the forum to let off some steam/seek some advice about biting. 

Wade is 2 months old and we've made a lot of progress with bite inhibition when it comes to hands (he still mouths, but it's better) using Dr. Dunbar's method, but now he has moved on to biting our LEGS! Just this morning he ruined my favorite pair of stretch pants while we were playing fetch in the yard. It's always when he is wound up - he'll just lunge at our legs and bite and it HURTS. I always say "OUCH" or "NO" and give him a stern look. Today he was so bad that I brought him right inside and put him in his pen.

I don't think I missed this anywhere on the thread, but has anyone used the "bad noise" method for biting or other bad behaviors? I've heard about filling a can with coins and throwing it on the ground whenever they do something you don't want them to be doing. There is also some loud spray called something like "Stop It" spray.

Thanks again for great advice.


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## meredian

milliesmom said:


> I need some help with my spoo. She is 15 weeks old and we have had her since she was 7 weeks old(I know now that I should have waited until 8 weeks...didnt know then). We have had problems with her biting since she was about 8 weeks old. We have tried everything in the book but now that she has really started teething she is even worse. She bites hard even after 8 weeks of bite inhibition training. We have taken her around many people and she bites all of them. So she cannot even be properly socialized because we have to pull her away from everyone because she wont stop biting them HARD! We are taking her to a puppy class starting Jan 3rd. I am only taking her because I am hoping being around other dogs and people will calm her down. Other than the biting she is perfect, she is pretty much housebroke, knows sit, down, come, and turn in a circle. Will this ever end?! I am afraid she will never be reliable around other people! HELP!!!!



Would love to know how to the training works out! We will be putting Wade in a class once he is fully vaccinated.


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## fjm

I wouldn't use the "bad noise" - too much risk of really scaring a puppy for me, but I have to admit that when Poppy started the fun game of let's-bite-Mum's-bum-when-she-is-not-looking-and-see-how-high-she-jumps, and ignoring wasn't working because it always took me by surprise, and it is very difficult not to jump and squeal when those needle teeth nip a tender part of your anatomy, I eventually turned around and ROARED at her, in my biggest, deepest, maternal dog voice! But she was quite a bit older than your pup, and I also took care to manage things so that she got very few opportunities to play the game - I'd watch her when she got over excited, and play something calming instead; I taught her not to crowd me at the top of the stairs; I watched her like a hawk around other people, and called her away at the first hint she might be getting excited enough to nip. 

With a very young pup like yours (at 8 weeks he really is a baby and you want to make sure that he has as few scary experiences as possible) I would focus on management. I would avoid wearing anything valuable that he might tear, or anything temptingly flappy, and put on really old clothes to play with him for a few days (am I the only one with a drawer full of clothes for gardening and decorating in?!). Then if he grabs clothes it means game stops - you stand absolutely still. Offer him a toy instead, and if he takes it play a quick fun game of tug. Tugging on clothes = no attention and boring, picking up a toy = lots of lovely attention and play. We all tend to pay attention to our dogs when they are "naughty" - pulling at clothes, biting our feet, nipping bums, etc - and ignore them when they are calm and quiet. Then we wonder why they go on doing more and more of the "naughty" stuff...


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## milliesmom

My training is going pretty well. Millie is now 17 weeks old and still very mouthy but she is getting better on the strength of her bites. She still opens her mouth anytime a hand goes near her which makes it very hard to socialize her(however she doesnt appear to have any fear of anyone or anything or any dog). One thing I have started in the past few days is touching her and clicking and treating. So far she still wants to open her mouth everytime I come near it however when she doesnt put her mouth on me I click really fast. There is no way I could increase duration yet because she still is figuring it out but I am hoping it will help. We started puppy classes last week and are going to go until we can get her canine good citizenship. She didn't care about anything in class one bit though, hopefully with practice and better treats next time she will do better. She only wanted to play with the other puppies which they didnt allow so I was a little bummed by that. I would say the best thing with working on her bites has been to use a very well rounded approach...no one thing is helping. 

As far as the noise thing, in my experience I have only used noise for puppy yelping and crying when she is alone. She stopped in a day. All my husband did was hit a wall and she would stop. I know many people think that is scary to a puppy but for my particular puppy I think it was fine. You would probably have to consider how your puppy might react. My pup is FEARLESS. I have never once seen her get scared. Even when we took her home and she was away from her parents and littermates. I have never in my life had a puppy that didn't wine in her crate at 8 weeks old. One thing though I didnt let her see that it was us making the noise. It has not made her afraid to bark either, she will bark if she really needs something or if she is playing. Its making me think about trying it for biting. 

This forum has made me feel better though, I now know how common this is for standards so I know I am not alone in working this out.


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## meredian

Ugh I am so fed up right now! Again I have been bit in the leg during fetch and this time it penetrated my jeans. There is a bleeding gash. I really hope this is normal for a 10 week old


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## lily cd re

Lily was very mouthy at that age. She was hard on my clothes and my hands. Be patient (easier said than done, I know!). If you let yourself get angry or frustrated your pup will read that off you and get more worked up. Calmly, but firmly, end the play and let pup calm down. If your pup is high in prey drive, fetch is a really activating game. You might want to try games or activities that mostly use pack drive such as teaching tricks where you direct the dog to do quieter things, like "bang you're dead" or roll over rather than games where the pup is going to build up mental activation from running. 

Asking thinking exercise will help tire the pup out, maybe not as much as running, but it is good to exercise their brains. Lily always sleeps well after a day with lots of training, even if it is for mostly cerebral activities like the directed retrieve or scent discrimination. She isn't very good at either of these yet, so I know they are really hard thinking work for her.


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## meredian

lily cd re said:


> Lily was very mouthy at that age. She was hard on my clothes and my hands. Be patient (easier said than done, I know!). If you let yourself get angry or frustrated your pup will read that off you and get more worked up. Calmly, but firmly, end the play and let pup calm down. If your pup is high in prey drive, fetch is a really activating game. You might want to try games or activities that mostly use pack drive such as teaching tricks where you direct the dog to do quieter things, like "bang you're dead" or roll over rather than games where the pup is going to build up mental activation from running.
> 
> Asking thinking exercise will help tire the pup out, maybe not as much as running, but it is good to exercise their brains. Lily always sleeps well after a day with lots of training, even if it is for mostly cerebral activities like the directed retrieve or scent discrimination. She isn't very good at either of these yet, so I know they are really hard thinking work for her.


Wow this is really great advice. It hadn't occurred to me that fetch could be activating prey instincts, but it makes sense. 

My only concern about switching to teaching tricks is that he won't pay attention when outside - there are so many stimulations and even when we are playing fetch it's sometimes hard to keep him on target. However! Tricks = treats, and those are sure to get his attention. Thank you!


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## lily cd re

You have to make yourself more interesting than all the other stuff. This is a big ask for young puppies who have little experience with the outside world. If not in a securely fenced area keep attached to your pup by a leash. If you are unsure of your recall reliability use a long line or a flexi-leash. Don't use the flexi for regular walks, just for working on recall so you don't leave him a choice about coming back to you. I actually hate how most people use flexis when they are out walking with their dogs. Walks are a really good opportunity to connect to your dog. You don't have to insist on heeling, but you want your dog to be mindful of your presence.

So as not to hijack this thread away from the OP's question. It is useful to understand how to read what is driving your pup's current behavior. You can assess drive balance by reading body language. Prey drive will excite and encourage highly active, aggressive responses. Pack drive will encourage listening, respect of your boundaries, calmer responses. Leadership drives can be difficult to manage since a dog high in this area will challenge your position in the social order. Be firm with this dog, but not mean. Leaders assert their leadership without violence in wild social canid groups. Fear drives stress your dog and can make their behavior unpredictable. You should figure out why they are fearful and break them out of it. They cannot learn or give good responses if they are afraid. Be careful with poodles here. Many of them are very sensitive to harsh corrections and loud voices.

There is a good book by the Volhards. I loaned it away so I don't have the exact title necessarily, but it is something to the effect of "Canine Good Citizen: Every Dog Can Be One." In it there is a little quiz you can use to evaluate your dog's drives, not scientific per say but pretty accurate as far as my two go. You can order it on Amazon. Some of you who have younger puppies whose crazy moments mystify you may find this book useful.


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## milliesmom

So I felt like we were doing really well and then we went to pet smart tonight to work on her puppy class homework with distractions and she meet two people. One was a random lady and Millie got really hyper and wiggled like crazy but she didn't bite. Then the next was a woman that worked at the store and when she was meeting Millie she said I'm about to lose a finger you need to go to puppy kindergarten. How can I just get her to meet people without freaking out and biting everyone? This has been so frustrating and I worry she will never chill out. She was acting like this in puppy class too and the trainer just said.... Such a poodle... I'm guessing she didnt say much bc it was the first class and didn't want to overwhelm us. 

Oh and did anyone else have problems with their puppy not wanting the top of their head touched? And what have u asked people to do when meeting your puppy to warn them about the mouthing and not freaking them out at the same time


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## LegalEagle

milliesmom said:


> So I felt like we were doing really well and then we went to pet smart tonight to work on her puppy class homework with distractions and she meet two people. One was a random lady and Millie got really hyper and wiggled like crazy but she didn't bite. Then the next was a woman that worked at the store and when she was meeting Millie she said I'm about to lose a finger you need to go to puppy kindergarten. How can I just get her to meet people without freaking out and biting everyone? This has been so frustrating and I worry she will never chill out. She was acting like this in puppy class too and the trainer just said.... Such a poodle... I'm guessing she didnt say much bc it was the first class and didn't want to overwhelm us.
> 
> Oh and did anyone else have problems with their puppy not wanting the top of their head touched? And what have u asked people to do when meeting your puppy to warn them about the mouthing and not freaking them out at the same time


On the head touching, lots of dogs don't like it. What I did with Laszlo was to touch the top of his head, then give him a treat over and over. That way, he feels like getting touched on the head means something good is about to happen.


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## lily cd re

Some poodles can be head shy (which is what is happening with Millie not wanting people to touch her hear). I wouldn't worry about it unless it is a problem with your grooming. Many dogs don't really like being patted on the head. Think about it, would you like having giant people coming along and slapping you on top of your head all day? If you are going to allow people to pet Millie ask them not to touch her head. You can certainly ask people not to pet her. Just tell people who ask that she is in training and that you would prefer that they not pet her. If you do decide that you want people to be able to pet her you will have to work up to it. I would ask her for a sit before letting anybody approach. Working with someone she knows have them approach and extend the back of their hand for her to sniff. If she breaks the sit to do so, have the person turn away. Put Millie back on the sit and try again. No pets until she stays on the sit. That pet should be on her shoulder or side and should be a brush of the hand across her, not a downward patting (slap type) motion. If she gets through that without breaking the sit, mark it (click or good), treat and release. Repeat as needed until she will hold the sit for longer sessions of being petted. Once this is reliable you can do variations such as familiar person, unfamiliar or exciting place or safe familiar place with new person.

I used to take Lily to our local big chain pet stores with no plans to buy anything. We would do those exercises in aisles at first then eventually in the area by the front door. Initially I would have her on sit stays and let people pet her if she stayed. Then I would put her on stand stays and only let people pet her if she didn't move any feet. I always told the people who we came across who were willing to be part of it that she was in training and what the rules were for getting to pet her. She is actually very flirty with all people she meets and rarely dislikes new people (when she doesn't like a person I am always cautious about them myself, she has very good skills for reading people). 

Do you have a dog club that gives obedience lessons near you? Pet store classes can be good or they can be worthless. The training of the people teaching them can be very variable. Unless a dog is at an extreme of a behavior spectrum I don't see that anyone could assess that a dog was dangerous in the brief time of a meet and greet. Also you shouldn't figure on puppy kindergarten being the answer to all of your training needs no matter what. Training is dynamic and ongoing, not something that is completed and then concretely set in stone. My dogs get training everyday in almost all that they do. It doesn't have to be a formal hour, but it does need to be ongoing. If Lily and Peeves are lurking near the cookie jar, I make them do drops, sits, come fronts and the like on signals to get the cookie. Sometimes that happens several times a day, sometimes only once. You don't have to plan to trial your dog in obedience, rally or anything else (although I have found it very enriching of my relationships with my dogs to do so).

Sorry for going on so long, but there was a lot of territory covered in your question. You need to work very hard at not letting yourself be frustrated. Millie probably senses your feelings better than you know them yourself. You can't afford to send confusing signals at this point (looking calm on outside, but worrying in your head is what I mean by this). That you are concerned enough to ask questions and for help means you will get there. Don't be discouraged and most of all don't be frustrated or angry. Our dogs know when we are lying to them.


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## fjm

Very good advice from Lily. Poppy dislikes hands over her head - even mine, if I am standing over her. I ask people to pet her chest instead, where she can see what they are doing. I've lost count of the number of children I've asked to imagine a hu-u-u-ge monster LOOOMING over them, to give them an idea of how she feels - all good educational opportunities!

I am not surprised that Millie forgets a lot of what you have taught her in the excitement of meeting other people and dogs - it is absolutely normal to have to go back to the beginning as the level of distraction increases. I would play lots of self control games at home - waiting for a few seconds for petting, a treat, to go outside, etc, etc - to help her build up the patience to play the games Lily describes when you are out and about. Not so long a wait that she gets frustrated, but just enough to teach her that really good things happen for patient, polite dogs.


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## milliesmom

Thank you for all the wonderful advice. 

Lily- I love the idea of letting her smell other people, but does anyone have any suggestions if when someone(even me) puts their hand in front of her to smell, she thinks its an invitation to mouth at them(and sometimes mouth too hard with the excitement). It scares people because she basically will lunge at them. I know she isn't being mean I just think she wants to play because she does get excited about meeting others, she is not protective or shy. 

fjm- I'm glad you are not surprised....its really encouraging to know this is normal... Ive always had mixed breed puppies(and a Mini poodle who I got as an older puppy) my whole life from shelters or free ads in the paper...this is the first time I've had a hard time with my puppy meeting other people. I was not expecting it! It's good to know I was just lucky before and this is just another thing to deal with through puppyhood. (Millie was a breeze to housebreak though....the others were not!) 

I will keep working with her, in her defense though, the person at petsmart who worked there was VERY excited around her, high pitched voice and so on. Of course she was going to go crazy. The other lady was calm and Millie did get very excited, but she didn't mouth at her. 

I am just waiting for that calmness that everyone talks about with poodles, i'm sure we will get there one day. I know everyone says poodles are very mouthy, but honestly I don't want to my dog to mouth at people even in a nice way because I don't think a lot of people like having dog slober on them(me included!).


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## lily cd re

I would do as fjm suggests work up to it slowly. Work on the self control at home and build the duration or attention and impulse control before testing her in public. I wouldn't stop taking her places, but until you feel she is more reliable just tell people she is in training and that you would prefer that they not greet her hands on. There are still times when I deflect people that way. If I know one of the dogs is tired or maybe doesn't feel great I tend to keep people away from them.


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## DQZNY

Milliesmom, I am having the same problem with my spoo. How is it going now with the biting? My spoo just turned 12 weeks and my arms and feet are covered with bites. I have tried pretty much everything except the lunge and growl. Just wanted to see with you since you had the same problem if it has gotten better with you.


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## msminnamouse

People, this is something that most healthy, happy puppies do. 

What have you tried so far? You say you tried almost everything but what does that include? And for how long did you give the methods a chance? How consistent were you? 

Why would you ever lunge and growl at your puppy? That's not a good method to try. Either you'll make your puppy afraid of you or you'll reinforce the biting by making it more fun.


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## lily cd re

Puppies are very excitable and the more flustered you get the more charged up they get. As msminnamouse said some of this is normal puppy stuff. By the time the pup is 12 weeks old that maternal correction thing is way in the past. Although it might work for some pups for some it will backfire and then you have made a new problem. I would stick with being very consistent about staying calm and asking the puppy for calming behaviors randomly. If you can redirect the pup to a sit or a down reliably they can't jump up and bite you at the same time. The key to it that I found is really truly being calm yourself. I know that is a big ask, to be relaxed when you feel like you are under assault. But until I learned to be really calm even in the face of crazy behavior I didn't make any progress on this front when Lily was little.


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## fjm

I found the biggest change to training my dogs came when I stopped talking, and concentrated on communicating by body language, or simply shifting my weight. It was amazing how much better the dogs understood me when I stopped talking at them!


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## milliesmom

An update on Millie... her biting became pretty bad. The methods that you guys were giving me just were not working around strangers so I took her to a different trainer. I know a lot of people on this forum are completely against anything but positive training. 

The trainer I went to uses many different methods of training....including A LOT of positive reinforcement. He put a very small prong collar on Millie with blunt edges. Now I know a lot of you disagree with this but Millies biting was not normal puppy behavior, she was becoming very sassy in her biting and would bite very hard. I tried the prong collar on myself first to get an idea of how it felt(I pulled as hard as I could), and I was fine with giving it a try. Anytime Millie came to bite me or anyone I would tell her "No", and I would pull very lightly on the leash. Now let me tell you Millies reaction....she was happy, her tail was wagging, and she politely shut her mouth and allowed people to pet her. I have zero indication that she is stopping because she is afraid of what might happen if she bites. Many people also say this it will make her more aggressive. I disagree, our trainer told us in the 35 years of dog training that he has not one dog has been hurt or become aggressive. The prong collar(like any tool) is not abusive in itself, it is only abusive if you use it wrong. I am not saying this method is for everyone, but for me, and Millie, it was a great method. Millie now actually knows what "no" means. Everyone always said not to say no to a dog because it sounds like a bark to them. Well I think dogs are smarter than that and once Millie understood that no meant no or she would get a tiny correction, she has been a way better dog. She also allows small children to pet her now. 

After just one week, Millie is a happier dog. She WANTED to be pet by everyone and she just didn't know how to contain her excitement so she bit them. Now she understands that biting people is not ok and she is able to meet MANY more people. 

I'm not saying this to start an argument and I know why many people disagree with me....dog training methods can cause very emotionally filled debates that end in judgement and name calling. I just wanted to share what worked for me and my dog in this situation.


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## Lou

I bought that collar for Lou, she likes it, calms her down. I never use it, because its hard to buckle, but when i did use it I pulled on it extremely gently and she listens, never seemed scared, she already was an amazing dog but she greeted people too excitedly, jumping, so thats why i bought it... Its almost like a "mom" gently putting her mouth around her neck to let her know that whatever she was doing was not ok. Some people abuse dogs, but i dont and I think if used very gently its ok (personal opinion)


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## lily cd re

I am glad you have had success. Yes there are people who use positive methods only and i absolutely respect and admire their work, but there are other tools and as long as you understand how to use them, the potential consequences of their misuse and are fair in how you apply their use then I don't see any problem. I have pinch collars for both of my dogs, but also only decided on their use after a careful discussion with a trainer who I trust (a person with decades of experience with poodles in obedience and conformation) and a demonstration on myself of what they felt like.


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## CT Girl

I am not a fan of pronged collars but I am even less a fan of biting dogs. I am glad you are seeing an improvement in her behavior. I think you were wise to seek another trainer since you were not having success in curtailing the biting behavior with your former trainer. Hopefully as you continue to work with her you can phase the collar out.

DQNY I have not heard of the lunge and growl method; I actually thing the lunge part is a little over the top. I have had great success with a emotive yelp or an irritated growl however. It did not make my puppy frightened but he did get the message that I was annoyed. I did not have this issue with Swizzle but as a puppy my Aussie was very mouthy- my breeder warned me when he was a puppy that this is a trait with Aussies and she stressed how important this is to get a handle on it when they are still puppies. I very rarely used a growl, I found yelps worked great. You really have to sell it though and sound injured. Usually that would get the puppy snuggling and licking by way of an apology.


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## msminnamouse

Why bother to ask for advice if you're not going to implement it?? There's no way you tried every suggestion in the short amount of time since you've been given it. 

Hope your training choices don't come back to bite you in the backside. I've worked with countless cases of redirected aggression when people use these methods and tools. It's enough to break a soft dog but other dogs don't break and get reactive when the owner fails to keep issuing harsher and harsher corrections. Of course the guy you're paying to train your dog won't claim anything other than success or people wouldn't hire him.

Good luck with all that.


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## milliesmom

Lou... I'm glad that you had success as well. I agree that a prong collar could cause abuse. I was taught how to use it correctly and then I also spent quite a few hours of research on it. I actually found many trainers who use it and some that have saved thousands of dogs from shelters that would had been put to death because they were aggressive.

Lily... thank you. I agree that tools can be misused but as long as they are used correctly they can be a great help in training your dog. I did a lot of research on this forum about prong collars and found some pictures that someone put up of dogs with punctures in their necks. That was a very good example of their misuse. I am sure that kind of damage was caused by dog owners who tie their dog up with with one on or something terrible like that. I also admire positive only trainers however I also believe not one training method fits all dogs. For example, when I would redirect with a toy, my dog seemed to see it as a reward FOR biting.

CT... The prong collar is not something I use all the time. Maybe 15 minutes a day. Millie knows when it is on and when it is off but listens to me most of the time and rarely slips up and bites. When she does it isn't with any force.

Msminnamouse... it wasn't a bother to ask for advice. I was using all the methods and so was my husband. I asked about this when my girl was 15 weeks and she is now 19 weeks. That is four weeks and I keep track of my training. I worked 2-3 hours a day with lots of breaks and nap time in between . In my opinion that is a lot. Yes my trainer could have made that up however the hundreds of titles his clients win at akc trials and the numerous referrals have proved that he is trustworthy to me. I also did a lot of research on the proper use of prong collars. And found a trainer that has helped thousands of people with their dogs and rehomed aggressive dogs with the use of fair corrections. I wanted training I could use so that my dog could gain more freedom quickly. My dog spent a lot more time around new people and in public in the past week which she loves after just 6 days of 15 minute sessions than she could before because people were avoiding her. This gives us more time for clicker training and games. Thank you for your well wishes.


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## msminnamouse

Positive reinforcement isn't comprised of one method.... Saving shelter dogs isn't a special feat being that the vast majority lack _any_ training. What professional trainer hasn't saved countless rescues?

Four weeks of what was most likely poor training isn't a lot of time. Maybe you would have been better off with a toy robot dog since you only seem to want instant results with minimal effort.


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## milliesmom

You're correct that is isn't comprised of one method, if my comments made it sound like that, I did not intend them to. I am using positive training as a general term to encompass all the methods used. 

I guess we disagree on the amount of training that is considered 'a lot'. I would like results in what I consider a reasonable amount of time(four weeks) for a behavior I feel is not acceptable in my dog. I do not want a robot dog as you say and while I feel that comment was rude and unjustified I am going to remember that you are behind a computer screen and probably not a rude person in general. However, I would like to defend my awesome dog and let you know that she is in fact, nothing like a robot. She knows when I want her to do something when I give her a command. When I say "break" or "ok" she knows that she may go about whatever she was doing. I never have or never will expect her to be perfect. I will however, expect her to have basic manners.

You were not there while I trained my dog, so while you may think I used poor training methods, you do not know how I trained. You also do not know how many dogs I have trained in the past and how well or, as you say, poor I was in my training. You were not there, so you really do not know. 

I should also include that while you are right, training any shelter dog may not be a major feat, I wasn't clear in my statement. The dogs they were training were aggressive dogs, about to be put to death, many of them trainers had turned away, saying they were hopeless. You could say that all those trainers who turned them away were using poor methods, however I do not believe that every trainer who cannot help a dog is using poor methods. I do not believe every trainer can help every dog or that every dog can respond to one method of training.


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## milliesmom

CT- I also wanted to include that I am still seeing both trainers. I think it is really good for Millie to learn in different ways and in different enviornments. Both trainers have been wonderful with her


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## CT Girl

Milliesmom, I know you want the best for your puppy. Prong collars are controversial and I honestly don't know much about them. I did do a little research on the Internet and found this blog by two vets. One uses prong collars on her dog one does not believe in them. The vet that is pro prong does not believe they should be used with puppies. Have you had a discussion with your vet to trainers about the use of a prong collar with your puppy? Here is the link:

Tails of Seattle | Veterinary Q&A: Prong collars are safe — fact or fiction? | Seattle Times Newspaper

Please understand I am not criticizing. I can tell you want the best for your dog. I actually had a similiar conversation with my vet but I was deciding between a buckle collar or a harness as toy's necks are very delicate.


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## milliesmom

CT... I did not think you were criticizing at all. I read the article and I appreciate it coming from two vets. For me the prong collar was used for her biting. I did get opinions from a vet, four reputable trainers, two whom do not use them, and a groomer that grooms many dogs who are trained with a prong collar. All of them thought it was fine. Although I will get another opinion from another vet. I also found a study done in Germany of post mortem dogs and found that dogs who use a prong collar had less damage than even a regular collar. They did a study of all collars. 

And thank you I do want the best for my dog


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## CT Girl

Wow, you really did your research. I hope that her biting issue will soon be behind you.


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## ar22dp

We adopted a grown spoo without any obediencetraning at all, he had been living in a dog pound with other dogs his whole life(he was 2 years old when we got him). Getting a high degree of obedience isnt that complicated, but it does require perserverance. We spend alot of time training, with positive reiforcement only.

We did go a few courses with him, at different dog trainers. But there isnt any magic way with "super dog trainers", the only thing that works is hard work, hard work and more hard work, and then some more hard work again.

Me and my whife have spent alot of time on tightening the band between us and our spoo. Since i work shifts he is never alone, this is proably one key factor. He is alowed to sleep in our bed, often with his head on my shoulder. We never use punishments or corrective training, a simple "no!" is the only thing required when he looks at us for permission to chase after a cat for example. This has made him a submissive pack member in our familly, always following us around waiting for something fun to happen. Since we dont have any kids we can give him 100% attention.

It is often forgotten, but a spoo is a predator with 20kg of muscle and 30mm fangs, discipline is essential. Just as when wolves were domesticated in sweden 10.000bc, he keeps me and my whife safe and warm(wakes us in the middle of the night when someone is approaching, keeps goats/sheep/livestock away from us when we are hiking, keeps us warm when we sleep, and fetches things/turn on lights. And we provide him with food, shelter and love. 












There is no simple way, its just about the amount of effort you put into it. Its just with kids, if you give them a warm and loving environment with positive atmosphere they grow up alot better than if you spank them and punish them. CT is best used on toy robot dogs because it wont cause any damage. Use it on a real dog and it will become agressive, leading to a need for harder punishment every day and presumably ending in a 20kg predatore with 30mm fangs that really hates you(not good!)

Something that makes me laugh everytime is when im out walking with Bambi and see someone with a loose dog thats not comming back to their owner, and the owner is yelling and sounding really mad. As the owner gets more and more angry the dog goes farther and farther away. When i call on bambi he comes to me because he knows that i will give him a treat or a backrubb, and play with him.


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## poodlelover2014

Milliesmom, I am so excited you are having great success with your prong collar! As for the rest of you so called, positive only people, you guys could not be more wrong. I have had plenty of success with all three of my poodles with a prong, none of them have turned aggressive. As a matter of fact, my sister has a yellow lab, they let sleep with them, loves them, wants to bite everyone else. I go to plenty of rallies where I see these food geeks giving cheese and all sorts of treats to clog their dogs up. they get into the ring and do a couple of cute tricks and then start wondering where is my food. Yah, food only is stupid. I would not call a prong collar negative, it is a tool that teaches dogs boundaries. I hope all of you people using prongs keep up the good work, and do not let a few stupid people get you down. Keep at it and keep your dogs safe.


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## poodlelover2014

--CT, spanking your kids is good for them.


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## fjm

poodlelover2014 said:


> --CT, spanking your kids is good for them.


UMMMMMmmmm...! Says it all, really....!


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## Myleen

I am going through the biting with Toby. He constantly bites me. Or bites my fleece. I continually give him his bone, kong, toys to divert him. Wondering if it is because when I come home at the end of the day he's already had a full day and is a bit tired. He is excited to see me when I come home, excited to go out side...we try to stay calm but he is still excited. Can't wait until puppy classes start and HE can go with us!!!! (after his last shots on the 20th.)


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## msminnamouse

Myleen said:


> I am going through the biting with Toby. He constantly bites me. Or bites my fleece. I continually give him his bone, kong, toys to divert him. Wondering if it is because when I come home at the end of the day he's already had a full day and is a bit tired. He is excited to see me when I come home, excited to go out side...we try to stay calm but he is still excited. Can't wait until puppy classes start and HE can go with us!!!! (after his last shots on the 20th.)


I give this to training clients and also to people in the online training groups I run. Standard poodles are pretty tenacious nippers. 

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1I7sZD8Bk9PHALkW7eFG5_XcaO8BBqQKOfTLAr_KzTVs/edit?usp=sharing


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## Steffie

poodlelover2014 said:


> Milliesmom, I am so excited you are having great success with your prong collar! As for the rest of you so called, positive only people, you guys could not be more wrong. I have had plenty of success with all three of my poodles with a prong, none of them have turned aggressive. As a matter of fact, my sister has a yellow lab, they let sleep with them, loves them, wants to bite everyone else. I go to plenty of rallies where I see these food geeks giving cheese and all sorts of treats to clog their dogs up. they get into the ring and do a couple of cute tricks and then start wondering where is my food. Yah, food only is stupid. I would not call a prong collar negative, it is a tool that teaches dogs boundaries. I hope all of you people using prongs keep up the good work, and do not let a few stupid people get you down. Keep at it and keep your dogs safe.


Not to be nice here or anything like that but you should probably find another place to hang around.We "Stupid People" don't like hitting dogs prong collars or animal abuse.We also aren't intelligent enough to realize positive reinforcement works for dogs.I however believe some people need their face sprayed with some nice Bear Deterrent if I see them spank a dog..Have a nice day.Some people are cruel on the net because if they did it in real life they'd have no job & their family just might spank their backside.LOL Keeping it one million.


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## msminnamouse

I see there is a large degree of miscomprehension of what positive reinforcement is. The addition of a stimulus that increases a behavior.

Positive reinforcement works so well because it *has* to be something the dog wants more of, which they seek to earn from you. I've seen people force their dogs to earn things the dog doesn't value (praise and pats only, mostly) but that's not positive reinforcement, that's a safety signal that a correction isn't currently forthcoming. 

Food is just the very tip of the quite large iceberg. Food is not the end all, be all of positive reinforcement, although usually food works very well because A. Dogs, like all of us, have to eat and we ALL work for our food to some degree besides children and pets B. Healthy dogs enjoy food, especially when they get to play with their food (please Google the term "contrafreeloading"), and C. Food can be divided and easily parceled out, making a high rate of reinforcement and frequent training sessions possible (keys to success). 

Food can be regular meals, or low calorie treats, or higher calorie treats and reduced meals on training days to compensate for this. Dogs only get fat if their food isn't managed well by their provider, or they have health issues. 

The list of positive reinforcements are individualist but possibilities are endless: toys, attention, scratches, Premack Principle (this is one of the most powerful ones right here), sniffing a hydrant, greeting a neighbor, going outside, chasing or being chased, tugging, smelling hunting odor samples, conditioner reinforcers, secondary reinforcers, primary reinforcers, tertiary reinforcers, etc. 

The most famous working dog organization, Guide Dog for the Blind, is moving away from punitive training and punitive tools. Most service dog orgs have or are. Even military and police dog departments are. Some entire countries have, and Steve White is quickly becoming a leader in K9/military dog training here in the USA (the USA is behind most countries in training standards).

I'm a service dog trainer myself, I also specialize in rescue animals with severe issues. This is not limited to just dogs, I train many species. They don't make collars for these species, and you won't walk away unharmed or even alive if you attempted to train them how the domestic dog allows themselves to be trained.

Humans have hands and dogs have their mouths. Just like human children, puppies aren't born knowing what's appropriate to their owner/parent and what's not. Puppies play bite. It takes time to learn what their human prefers. Especially since they don't get to spend a lot of time learning bite pressure inhibition from mom and litter mates by the time most are sold.

Every single person I know wants patience, empathy, and to be treated well when they're learning something new, or have an emotional issue they're trying to work through. 

Learning and behavior modification, done properly, rarely is instantaneous. Instant means subduing symptomatic behaviors but not addressing WHY they're happening. Learning takes time.

Why we won't extend the same courtesy, that we would want for ourselves, to our animals that we choose to place into our own homes, is beyond me.

Pinch collars work because they hurt. It's simplistic and quick. An "easy fix" that's just a cop out. But it doesn't teach your puppy much beyond the fact that you'll hurt them. 

What people feel they should do is up to them, but correctly utilized (it has to be done correctly) positive reinforcement works. And it's pleasant for our dogs, and it's healthier. Chronic distress is very hard on the body. My service dog and love of my life worked up until she was 13. I recently lost her at 15 and my heart is broken, but I can at least find comfort in the fact that she knew that I would never do anything to hurt, scare, or intimidate her.

Personally, I don't like to distress my animals, I'd much rather choose training they enjoy instead. I enjoy it too. I don't enjoy hurting, scaring, or intimidating others. Especially helpless animals and children at my mercy. 

If positive reinforcement didn't work for your dog, then I'd suggest hiring a competent force free trainer who can share their expertise with you.


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## fjm

Myleen - this is a rather old thread that got a bit controversial in its time - you may be better starting a new thread for advice on puppy biting, or looking at the more recent posts on the topic. There are lots - most pups seem to go through a land shark stage to some extent. I can remember Poppy creeping on her tummy across the bed towards me, eyes gleaming with mischief and jaws snapping open and shut like a clockwork toy. As for her favourite game of nipping my bum as I set off downstairs, the less said the better! Managing puppy biting well is a key part of developing a soft mouth and good bite inhibition, both of which are very, very important life lessons for a dog - some good ideas here Puppy Biting | Dog Star Daily


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## Myleen

fjm said:


> Myleen - this is a rather old thread that got a bit controversial in its time - you may be better starting a new thread for advice on puppy biting, or looking at the more recent posts on the topic. There are lots - most pups seem to go through a land shark stage to some extent. I can remember Poppy creeping on her tummy across the bed towards me, eyes gleaming with mischief and jaws snapping open and shut like a clockwork toy. As for her favourite game of nipping my bum as I set off downstairs, the less said the better! Managing puppy biting well is a key part of developing a soft mouth and good bite inhibition, both of which are very, very important life lessons for a dog - some good ideas here Puppy Biting | Dog Star Daily


Good idea on starting a new thread on puppy biting. I will try to figure out how to start a new thread after work tonight!  Thanks!


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## ericwd9

ar22dp said:


> We adopted a grown spoo without any obediencetraning at all, he had been living in a dog pound with other dogs his whole life(he was 2 years old when we got him). Getting a high degree of obedience isnt that complicated, but it does require perserverance. We spend alot of time training, with positive reiforcement only.
> 
> We did go a few courses with him, at different dog trainers. But there isnt any magic way with "super dog trainers", the only thing that works is hard work, hard work and more hard work, and then some more hard work again.
> 
> Me and my whife have spent alot of time on tightening the band between us and our spoo. Since i work shifts he is never alone, this is proably one key factor. He is alowed to sleep in our bed, often with his head on my shoulder. We never use punishments or corrective training, a simple "no!" is the only thing required when he looks at us for permission to chase after a cat for example. This has made him a submissive pack member in our familly, always following us around waiting for something fun to happen. Since we dont have any kids we can give him 100% attention.
> 
> It is often forgotten, but a spoo is a predator with 20kg of muscle and 30mm fangs, discipline is essential. Just as when wolves were domesticated in sweden 10.000bc, he keeps me and my whife safe and warm(wakes us in the middle of the night when someone is approaching, keeps goats/sheep/livestock away from us when we are hiking, keeps us warm when we sleep, and fetches things/turn on lights. And we provide him with food, shelter and love.
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> There is no simple way, its just about the amount of effort you put into it. Its just with kids, if you give them a warm and loving environment with positive atmosphere they grow up alot better than if you spank them and punish them. CT is best used on toy robot dogs because it wont cause any damage. Use it on a real dog and it will become agressive, leading to a need for harder punishment every day and presumably ending in a 20kg predatore with 30mm fangs that really hates you(not good!)
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> Something that makes me laugh everytime is when im out walking with Bambi and see someone with a loose dog thats not comming back to their owner, and the owner is yelling and sounding really mad. As the owner gets more and more angry the dog goes farther and farther away. When i call on bambi he comes to me because he knows that i will give him a treat or a backrubb, and play with him.


Yes I know this is an old thread; but I realy like this post and I think it says a lot about spoodles. 
How could a nice spoodle be in a pound for two years without being adopted???

Eric


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## Viking Queen

ericwd9 said:


> Yes I know this is an old thread; but I realy like this post and I think it says a lot about spoodles.
> How could a nice spoodle be in a pound for two years without being adopted???
> 
> Eric


I agree with you, Eric, and look at that dear dog, lying on his human. Probably was starved for human attention and human contact after 2 yrs in a shelter. My Iris used to occasionally sprawl on me like that....just every once in a while. I loved it.


Viking Queen


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## Myleen

This is a very nice story.  Love the picture of him laying comfortably on you with no worries. Some day maybe Toby will be of the same mind. 
My husband and are in it for the long haul. Reading up and discussing what way we should do things. We agree on positive reinforcement as well. Step by step, day by day. 
I'm giggling as I turn to my left and my little Toby is laying sprawled out next to me...eyes barely open watching me.


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## msminnamouse

You won't regret it, your choice to go with positive reinforcement based training. You'll be amazed at what you'll see developing. I still get amazed and I train for a living.

Obedience to you and good behavior (once they've learned what that is) *inherently* is enjoyable (please Google "tertiary reinforcer" if you'd like to know more) because it was fun to learn, produces good outcomes for them which releases "feel good" hormones (like endorphins for one), and most of all YOU are the source of fun, affection, comfort, and all that good stuff. Dogs repay in kind many times over what you put into them.

Dogstardaily.com was already recommended for puppy nipping but it covers just about every subject for training of puppies/dogs. For free. 

This resource will especially be handy during adolescence and the next fear period (around 6-10 months old but varies by individual). 

Good luck. Enjoy your puppy.


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