# Shock/Vibrate collar for 5 pound toy poodle



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Why? What other, less extreme, management and training efforts have they made?


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

What behaviors is she wanting to work on with the vibration collar? Has she enrolled her dog in classes? Talked to a trainer? Is she a good fit to own a dog/puppy- how old is the dog? How long has she had the dog?


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

pls no


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

At her wits’ end with what? What’s going on exactly?

In the wrong hands, and especially on a smart, sensitive dog like a toy poodle, a shock collar is likely to make the situation a whole lot worse. I witnessed this firsthand with a dog in one of our classes. The owners just would not listen to our trainer and, in the long run, ended up spending many thousands of dollars on veterinary testing, prescription medication, and behavioural rehabilitation when their poodle fell to pieces. I have no idea what condition that poor dog is in now.


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

Unbelievable …..


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## alitoypoodle (4 mo ago)

The dog is 1 year old. She took training classes about 6 months ago. 

My in-laws did not follow through with any training at home, so nothing really helped at all.

They just want her to come when her name is called. My in-laws are old and it doesn't go well when they have to "catch" her. They are hoping the collar will get her attention, and then they will pair it with a treat when the dog comes to them.

The dog is a lapdog. She's in my mom's hands being held almost the entire time. She even holds her when she does the laundry, goes to do an errand, etc. If we aren't watching the dog, she's in my mother in law's hand.

The dog goes outside and goes to the bathroom just a few times a week. She is trained to do the bathroom on an indoor pen that they have. It's a baby pack and play.

She is either being held, or in that enclosed pen. When she breaks free, she runs for the trash, grabs papers to play with, etc. 

They want to get her when she's free, without having to chase her for 30 minutes.

Believe me, this all sounds crazy. It has been extremely difficult to not intervene. I've raised issue with everything I mentioned again and again, and it doesn't seem to make a difference at all.

Now they want me to get her a shock/vibrate collar.

I appreciate any feedback. We just try to have her here as often as we can. She goes outside to go to the bathroom, isn't held, etc. We also crate her when we have to leave her at home for short stretches of time. She initially cried in the crate, but that has stopped.

I realize many of you are probably thinking, why don't you just take the dog? The reason is because it isn't a great situation with my wife, and also our 6 pets in this house. (we even have guinea pigs that have their own physical room. They LOVE it and just go into a cage themselves to sleep/eat/bathroom. My son practically lives in that room. I share this just so you know my family is extremely careful with animals and them having a happy life.). 

We also can't take the dog, because my mother in law is so attached, and can't imagine life without holding her all the time now.

Good luck with any advice you can share lol.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

From what you say it is clear the problem is not with the dogs but the humans - the dog is so desperate to get all four feet on the ground and behave like a dog rather than a stuffed toy that she will ignore any kind of recall. A shock collar may start as "just a buzz to get her attention" but what will happen when she ignores that? An escalation to harsher and harsher shocks? Why do they believe that will encourage her to come to them when rewards have failed? 

My recommendation would be a qualified, reward based trainer who can explain just what a miserable life this is for a dog. If they cannot exercise her themselves they need to pay someone to walk her, arrange playdates for her, do much, much more to meet her physical and emotional needs. This poor little dog is having a miserable time and heading for a life of behavioural and emotional problems all because of the humans who think they "love" her. Real love considers the needs of the beloved, not of the self.


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## alitoypoodle (4 mo ago)

Thank you for the feedback fjm. It's so heartbreaking.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

LOL - It sounds like her issue is with a Mischevous Runner... a standard phase for a pup.
A calling-the-dog's-name will echo thru the house, but so will the scent of a treat sitting on her lap.
I'd do both... call and reward.
In the meantime... let it explore.


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

The best advice for the dog is what you already know. That is the wrong dog for your in-laws. Your in-laws are wrong for that dog. Believe me, I understand. My aunt is just like them. "_Refused_ to bond with her..." is how she phrased it. Like it was the dog's fault, or it was being rebellious. She eventually returned the puppy (not even a year old!) because the dog wouldn't come. Poodles are independent. This will only get worse as time goes on.

You already know a shock collar won't solve this.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I agree with what others have said but would add that I would tell them there are not shock collars made that small.


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## beowoof (Dec 6, 2021)

i, too think a qualified, reward-based trainer is the way to go. i'm not a professional but i think one way to explain why a shock collar is a bad idea is understanding that training (and all tools) ideally convey information. i can't imagine a dog associating their name (something that should be handsomely rewarded when teaching recall) with the unpleasant experience of a shock or vibration is going to encourage reliable recall. often aversives are used to indicate "you're wrong" rather than the reward based method of "you're right" making them tricky to employ effectively. shock/aversive collars have a high risk of fall-out and can result in more rather than fewer behavioural issues. 

as an alternative, is there a way to tether (or use a long line) the dog so it can go out safely, and the humans have a way of retrieving it when recall is still a work in progress? another suggestion for the time being would be to install some baby gates where the dog in front of escape routes (for safety), which will hopefully not be needed once the dog is has been trained and allowed to be treated like a dog.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Is there a reason the trash and papers can’t be picked up so she can run free? Most dogs, and esp poodles in my experience, love to run for the sake of running!


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

A one-year-old dog should be on the floor playing with toys, not sitting in someone's lap all of the time. And definitely not carried all of the time. Small dogs are still dogs, and they should be able to act like dogs! I understand they love their dog, but if this is the dog's life, it just not a good fit for a poodle puppy. I would have the dog go to a _good_ rescue. Your in-laws can get a senior dog, which sounds like a much better fit.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poor little poodle.  She sounds stressed and frustrated and so, so bored. If re-homing her is not an option (does the breeder know the conditions she’s living in?) then I would help your in-laws poodle-proof their home at poodle-level, purchase some freeze-dried chicken for them to carry in their pockets, and explain (if you haven’t already) that there is a big dog with big-dog needs in that small body. The threat of being constantly scooped up will of course make her keep her distance. But they can start to reverse that by building up a positive association with their presence. That’s where the bits of chicken come in.

If they were even remotely willing to work on proper training, enrichment, and relationship-building, I would have other advice. Same if they showed any interest at all in meeting her doggy needs. But I’m making these suggestions with the realities of the situation in mind. If they were receptive, I would also suggest a gift of some puzzle toys.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Perhaps you could demonstrate how to teach a 'come' or 'here' command using treats.

Purchase a really smelly good treat (dried salmon bits for example), hold out the treat, and say 'Here Roxie' and odds are you can entice the dog to come. U-tube is filled with good free dog training videos.

And explain that a shock collar on a 5-pound dog may well injure the dog.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

This makes me so sad! They want to punish the dog for their own failure to follow through. How terribly horrific for that little dog.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

N2Mischief said:


> This makes me so sad! They want to punish the dog for their own failure to follow through. How terribly horrific for that little dog.


This exactly.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Apart from all the other issues already mentioned, I think a shock collar has the potential to do serious damage to a tiny dog. Adding burns or neurologic damage to the current training issues isn't likely to help anything. I do hope the collar meets with an accident that prevents it from activating if someone does actually find one sized for a dog this small.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Shocking a dog running away from you, onto the street or wherever, will cause the dog to run even faster away.

Do they use the computer and go online?

Regardless of that, please buy them the book Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. It's an enjoyable read and easy to understand. If that gets their interest going, perhaps When Pigs Fly from Jane Killion could be a next option.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

So much good advice so I won’t repeat. There are several serious issues going on but it sounds like one of the things that is a source of greatest frustration for all is the
not coming when called.

Just a thought that could be helpful and make for a fresh start with recall is to whistle train. I’m guessing recall has been pretty poisoned so there is much to overcome. I trained Joey, our mini, and Bobby our Standard, very quickly with a whistle. Joey took to it immediately. He got it with just a few whistles and a treat after each whistle. They hear the whistle, a quick “toot” “toot,” indoors or out and they immediately come and they are then rewarded with a yummy treat each and every time so the whistle is always, always positive and fun. A whistle is great because the sound is consistent and owner frustration doesn’t show through.

The whistle won’t solve everything and the little poodle definitely needs training and to be treated more like a dog but perhaps learning to come rather than run away can be a good start. Whistle training is fun. A shock/vibration collar definitely is not.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Poor dog. You’ve had good advice, I hope you find something to help. Toy poodles are very sensitive and you will just destroy that dog if you even attempt to use it on her. She will not come to her owners, she will just be traumatized and run away even more.

Tell your in-laws to put her on the ground and treat her like a dog, not a stuffed toy. And get a trainer. If not, rehome and get a senior dog at the end of its life. This is not a life for a young, lively, intelligent dog.


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## Charlie’s dad (12 mo ago)

N2Mischief said:


> This makes me so sad! They want to punish the dog for their own failure to follow through. How terribly horrific for that little dog.


Please no shock collar! I will gladly take the poor pup in and keep it safe!!!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Puppies need play. For poodle puppies, triple the play! Are your in-laws able bodied, puppy wise? Do they play with him? Let him romp around? Take him out somewhere where he can run? Indoor flirt pole maybe? I know my Elroy (18+ months Standard) would be a lot less happy he was forced to stay inside and be calm. Poodles are high energy dogs. 
Show this thread to your in-laws. If anything, it should make them think.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Good and valid points all around.

A shock/spray/vibrate collar is an aversive method in training. It does nothing to help the dog learn what they need to do to make their humans happy.

What is does is teach them to fear.
I'm sure that's not what your in-laws want.

If they want this little girl to come to them then they will need to make themselves the most interesting thing in the world (and let her be a dog).

They will sit quietly with a treat in their hand and wait for her to come to take it. As she does, tell her what a good girl she is and do nothing else. 
Do this multiple times a day. (and let her be a dog)

If they don't blow it, she'll start to come sooner and quicker. The next step is to give the pup something she wants, like time on the floor to romp, time outside to romp, a few minutes of teaching her a trick. (Trick training is less pressure to "get it right" and still builds a bond. 

Surely they'd love to see the day that she comes even without being called?

And now, I must ask, why do they want the dog to come when called?

It's not to play, it's not to go for a walk, it's not to train. What benefit is there for this little girl to go to them? Poodles have a strong sense of Right and Fair Play. Why should she come when called? What good thing happens when she does?


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

I can only echo the above advice.
However if a shock collar is an absolute "must" purchase, it should be for your in-laws. The get a buzz everytime they carry the pup around 
OK- on a serious note- a very serious conversation between your wife and her parents is in order. What do they expect from a dognand what is in the dog's best interest. Anything less is animal cruelty and not acceptable. Notice, I am pushing this away from your hands and into your wife's. It's her parents and definitely easier for her to get forgiveness after she's hurt their feelings, which seems necessary.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

How terrible and sad.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I understand them being old and carrying the dog around. Perhaps a better idea would be to make indoor gates for the doors leading to the outside, that way the little dog cannot run out into the street.
Perhaps a few toys in the house that they can toss, and reward the pup when she brings them back. Overtime she comes to them reward, praise and treat. Also some mind toys, a snuffle mat. Things the pup can do. They are many puzzles they can feed her from to occupy her. I don't have objections to vibration collars but there is a learning curve to using them that most people don't have. I would tell them they do not make them for 5 lbs dogs. Actually I really don't think they do and it would be detrimental to a dog this size especially a poodle. I've had dogs my entire life (being older too) and most were fairly well trained by myself. Poodles learn differently though as I learned over the past 5 years. They thrive on human interaction, and they think more than the average dog so you must do things that make them think. Sounds to me this pup is just a pup and likely a bit bored so she looks for something to do to occupy herself. Perhaps too a indoor playpen would help. They make these toddle plastic enclosures you can get at Walmart or Amazon. Something like this 








IRIS 6-Panel Plastic Exercise Dog Playpen with Door, White - Chewy.com


Buy IRIS 6-Panel Plastic Exercise Dog Playpen with Door, White at Chewy.com. FREE shipping and the BEST customer service!




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Better to just put her in a safe area or block off trash , they could put a potty area on one end and a bed and toys on the other, or even a patch of grass on one end for potty. That way when they go out or are not holding her they can just put her in there. I wouldn't do the collar on a small 5 lbs dog, it really won't help the issues.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Another thought: while treats are extremely helpful, play is often even more motivating for a very bored very bright dog. When my boy Galen is out in the yard he often won't come for a treat. However, he will often come if I squeak a toy or if I call him while moving away for him. He knows these are invitations to play with me, and he finds them very enticing.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

That is indeed another good thought. These poodles love play and positive interaction. That is actually what I did with my 1st standard, play and you have to continue the play once inside, LOL or quickly they think hmm you just want to play and once inside you quit. I learned that. So I always make it continue in some manner for awhile. LOL He now has a good recall back inside.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

As somebody who has no issue using e collars in appropriate circumstances, I would still say it is inappropriate in this circumstance. Small dogs can safely wear some appropriately sized ones, but that isn't really the issue. An e collar is not a _magic_ communication tool. A person has to be a very good trainer before they can use it in a useful and fair capacity. Because a dog needs to be taught to understand what the message means. And if they don't clearly understand, there is the potential for emotional damage. They can be great tools to keep dogs safe. But only when the person with the remote has a clearly established language the dog understands. And only when the dog is emotionally resilient enough to be corrected without shutting down.

Using them on vibrate is actually not better. Many dogs are more disturbed by a vibrate than an e stim.

When my dog was young he loved the "come and catch me" game and often refused to come if he thought he could make a game out of it. But there was a simple solution! I had him drag a 4 ft line for around a month. He had it on all the time when not penned. It extinguished his desire to keep out of my reach.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Flirt pole, toys to retrieve, puzzle toys, tug games - so many ways to entertain a dog that don't require much human exercise. And giving happiness brings happiness, so everyone benefits. No batteries required, either!


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## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

Minie said:


> On a serious note- a very serious conversation between your wife and her parents is in order... Notice, I am pushing this away from your hands and into your wife's. It's her parents and definitely easier for her to get forgiveness after she's hurt their feelings, which seems necessary.


This. DH and I have a rule. I handle my family, he handles his. We each back the other up 100% when needed. They may listen to her where they won't listen to you.


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

There has been good advice here. I am not a fan of e-collars. Perhaps in an extreme circumstance, but this isn’t one. I will say that my sister uses a shock collar on her dog on the vibrate setting. He only listens when the collar is on. Otherwise, he doesn’t have the training, interest, or motivation to listen because there is no reason to. There isn’t anything in it for him. That is NOT to say the collar should be on a dog all the time! It is meant as an example that real training and bonding does not occur when you zap a dog for not listening to you.

Unless they are willing to make drastic changes for this dog, rehoming is the kindest thing they could do before she becomes a neurotic mess.


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## WI Poodle Lover (Oct 28, 2020)

alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


She might want to go to "Sit Means Sit" Training. They use collars but they are safe and are similar to a tens unit. I had to take my miniature poodles there because they were stubborn and hard to train. It worked well the youngest was a door dasher and now he only stands at the door and doesn't think about going out. I to had a 30 chase and finally had to go back for bacon. Then I had him come back but I also had a bunch of other neighbor dogs. Poodles are stubborn.
Good luck.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't even entertain a guess. I have no respect for that solution to none training or not leashing.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

WI Poodle Lover said:


> Poodles are stubborn.


Poodles are sensitive and intelligent. When communication breaks down or is not even attempted (as in the case being discussed here), or when the benefits of doing xyz far outweigh the benefits of doing what’s being asked, this can look like stubbornness.

But that’s not a very productive characterization, and here’s a good explanation why:









There Are No Stubborn Dogs


“My dog can do it but he doesn’t want to!” “My dog has a mind of his own.” “My dog is just really stubborn.” We all have heard (and probably said, or at least thought) these statements often. Can dogs (and other animals) truly be stubborn? Like many other times, this is us using an exclusively...




spiritdogtraining.com


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## Meganf1027 (Oct 22, 2018)

I am not against e-collars, but they absolutely 100% need to be introduced under the guidance of a professional trainer. There needs to be a foundation of training before you can even add an e-collar. Done incorrectly, even on vibrate, can cause a lot more damage in behaviors. If your in-laws are not willing to put in the work of training, they should definitely not use an e-collar. I would sit them down and have a serious conversation about the safety of training for the dog and how an ecollar is a good back up for recall, but they need to work with a trainer and actually do it. Poodles are smart- it’s not a difficult process!


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

Regarding stubbornness of Poodles: I have found mine to be easy to train. Poodles are extremely intelligent so you have to make it worth their while to listen. That can be praise, play, or high value treats.

As PeggytheParti mentioned, Poodles are also sensitive. This means that harsh training methods can cause the dog to shut down. They can become nervous, fearful, and in extreme cases reactive.

Greyhounds are a pretty sensitive breed, like Poodles. When we brought home our foster-fail Greyhound, it was clear he had been exposed to harsh training methods. Even a gentle redirection to lead him outside when he lifted his leg on my curtains caused him to tuck his tail and hide in his crate. It took us months to overcome but he is still sensitive to loud noises and abrupt movements. Not even dog overcomes this.


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## Maggied (Sep 6, 2018)

alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


amp


alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


I got the nbjg dog collar on Amazon. Just vibrates and beeps, no shock, and has different levels. I use it on an 18 lb dog and set it medium level. You can return it, see if she is comfortable with it. I would say it makes my dog hesitate to bark needlessly, won't stop her if it is important. I am not sure how it would work on your MIL"s little pup. I would certainly put it on my wrist 
and check it out. It is more of a distracter than a punishment.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I have come to think Oliver may have had the harsh Sit... service used on him. I can be a butterfinger with my keys sometimes, and his over the top terror if the drop says the likelihood this was used on him may be substantial. Other sudden noises, not such a reaction, though he was quite stressed by fireworks for some years. He's good or at least exceptionally more comfortable with fireworks now.

I would not subject a Poodle of any variety to that or other board and train or shock 'training' (not). Not the breed. Rattlesnake aversion training in certain species appropriate geographic locations with frequent exposure danger maybe aside.


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## Chien et Chat (4 mo ago)

alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. Your mother in law is a smart and caring person. My opinion doesn't come from reading the opinions of other's. My pet related opinions come from true life experiences. 40 + years I have trained, bred, groomed pets.
I'm thrilled with the barking collar and always recommend it for untrainable dogs. It works beautifully and so well that after using it 3-4 times, all you need to do show them the collar without even placing it on them simultaneously firmly saying NO!
I have 3 Toy Poodles now, 2 are puppies, one is a barker. I searched through Amazon and found a fabulous collar that has both the vibrate and shock. Extremely stubborn dogs require the shock but the majority of dogs do well with the vibrate. This collar is lightweight, perfect for small dogs. I discarded the box and the collar doesn't have the brand name on it. I can go through Amazon tomorrow to track it down for you.


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## blackcurls (Dec 15, 2009)

alitoypoodle said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> My mother in law is at her wits end. They have a 5 pound toy poodle and want to get a shock/vibrate collar for her. The plan would be to only use the vibration part. The shock would only be used if she was about to run onto the street or something super dangerous.
> 
> ...


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## Kathryn (Jun 5, 2021)

This is incredibly sad and misguided. Please take the dog AWAY from these people and get your MIL a stuffed toy. She doesn’t need or want a real dog. Yes this is harsh, but the dog is in an abusive environment and needs to be removed!


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## blkdog (Nov 22, 2011)

Shock collars, prong collars and choke collars are illegal in most other countries but so is docking and cropping. Americans sadly are so far behind in our treatment of animals. It is very sad. Dogs are amazing creatures, their love and loyalty to us human beings is beyond compare. They ask for so little from us and yet, we are unable to give even that. Dogs want what we want a loving home where they can feel safe, where their needs are provided, food, shelter, exercise, play and affection from a loving and patient human. It's not a lot to ask but few humans can provide.
Okay, maybe, I am being unfair of course, there are tons of wonderful dog people who provide amazing homes to their dogs and train with positive reinforcement but sadly, your parents are not one of those wonderful pet parents. I would try to talk them into rehoming the dog.


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## Charlie’s dad (12 mo ago)

Kathryn said:


> This is incredibly sad and misguided. Please take the dog AWAY from these people and get your MIL a stuffed toy. She doesn’t need or want a real dog. Yes this is harsh, but the dog is in an abusive environment and needs to be removed!


I will take the poor dog! He needs a home that he is loved.


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

Are you ready for my super long post on the subject? 🙂 Please keep in mind this is not to criticize anyone or their opinions. This subject brings up a lot of mixed feelings from all walks of life. That's the funny thing about opinions though. You have to be willing to risk offense to have one. Without that proper thought communication and debate are impossible. As a person that is familiar with the e-collar. I can back up what Meganf1027 has said. That's good information and it's spot on in my opinion. Not everybody has a need for the use for an e collar. A true shock collar I thought those were all banned.😮‍💨 They are very inaccurate/inconsistent with adjustments and application. Not to mention they are nothing like the e collar TENS units of today. A true shock collar applies a static shock hence the name shock collar. A prong collar can be a myriad of devices it's not really clear. Capable of burning flesh very bad devices in my opinion. Thankfully many places have banned them and their use due to new regulations. Back to the e-collar blunt stem device though like the TENS unit that stiffens a muscle. Most places have required leash laws to keep a dog under control. For the dogs that will be in situations off leash legally though it has its place. It takes a thorough understanding of how dogs communicate. It's not used as a form of correction or punishment for bad behavior it is solely an attention getter. You do not want a negative association with the device. It's also not used to train a new unknown behavior it is meant as a reinforcement. Though it may seem like a correction device to the unknowledgeable or untrained eyes. Yes the e-collar is like a TENS unit found in a physical therapy unit of a hospital. It tenses up the muscle like an annoying tick it could be compared to for the dog. In the hospital environment it's used to actuate the muscles into movement for therapy. However if used at the wrong levels or worn too long it can do some major damage to a dogs neck. Not only physically to the muscle but psychologically to the dog. Necrosis from pressure at prongs is one thing it can cause if worn too long. You also have to make sure the collar is fitted properly with the correct prongs. They also must be made out of the right type of material to avoid an allergic reaction. Psychological damage occurs when it's not implemented properly. Like strapping it to a dog that doesn't know what to do with or about it. Then hitting the button repeated later cranking it up to make them comply. They just can't comply because you haven't went about this properly. They have no idea what to do so they shut down. It's horrible to think some people interpret that as a look he minds me now! The dogs suffering is interpreted as the reaction the owner wanted a behavior that is docile quiet unmoving dog. To the trained eyes though it is an unnatural acting dog. To the trained eye they would see the dogs suffering. Especially when whining or rolled up in a ball afraid to move. Their body language crying for help like make it stop. I can't even go outside without this thing going off. How am I supposed to let them know I have to potty? I pulled on my leash a little bit out there it comes on again... Almost like a prisoner of war being water boarded in a way. Unable to escape this annoyance or damage at high enough levels at their neck. They learn to be quiet still and afraid of you. Eventually lashing out at their perceived persecutors with extreme aggression biting. I'll try to put this in terms the average owner can understand with a standard collar/leash broke dog. When you first put a collar and leash on a dog what do they do? That's right they pull they don't understand this new pressure at their neck. They also don't understand the directional control a leash and collar provide. Just like a horse would do they pull run go wild trying to get it off. Dragging or pulling the leash hard enough from your end can really do some damage. Dislocated vertebrae neck injury collapsed esophagus to name a few. Even if you're not pulling the dog can lunge and inflict these injuries on themselves. Not only physically damaging but psychologically also. We've all seen that dog choking to death going up the road. They have other types of collars and safe methods to remedy that. One frequently used is the head collar. Harm is highly likely though if implemented used incorrectly in my opinion. It would be a good idea to get the dog used to wearing it first. Dog communication is much different than our vocal communications. So through body language traning the dog is conditioned to this standard collar with leash situation. It's helpful if they already know the sit command and come or place command. When they pull you do a little tug at the leash like hey look at me. Think of it like a dog barking at another dog they are doing the same thing. That or a trainer using a whistle or a clicker it means pay attention look at me. The rest of the communication happens from there with hand gestures cues and body language mostly from us. The main one being follow me when on a standard leash in collar. Dog communication is so based in body language you can give hand cues without vocals. This is how the deaf communicate with their service dogs. The dog will respond to that first once you've got their attention that's if they are looking at you. If not you're going to need a way to get their attention. Sometimes a noise maker is enough to do the trick. You also have to show them what to do with that hand queue command prior traning. Like positioning their body in the sit position. It's all in the prior training. That or luring them to you with a treat while giving the commands to place. Repeating with treats as positive reinforcement and praise. That's how you teach your dog something new not electrical collar stimulation. You give the sit command via hand cues and vocals. The dog knows this after some positive training so they respond. Every time they start to pull they end up in this position and can progress no further. They want to keep progressing on the walk exploring. So eventually they stop pulling noticing the treats with known positive reinforcement cues. Before you know it you got a dog that's loose leash walking. When you stop they automatically sit. It's amazing I know they are truly intelligent interesting creatures. They also noticed the pitch of your voice with the good boy/girl or yes yes praise. Most of their communication is through body language its very obvious. Very little of it is based on vocals but some of it is mostly the pitch not what is said. Now why would somebody need an e-collar? It would be for those high prey drive or high distraction situations. One where a traditional collar and leash are not possible to implement. Situations like a military dog, police dog, hunting dog and some types of service dogs may encounter frequently. Dogs in these situations tend to ignore vocals, whistles, clickers, barking and yelling even. Think about the last time prey drive kicked in and your dog was chasing an animal or something. Some dogs you can call them off with high success. The vast majority however will ignore all that. Only to follow that squirrel right into the path of a car on the street. There is an argument that says the e collar may scare the dog. Causing them to leap out in front of the car resulting injuries or death. I agree it is a possibility if the dog wasn't properly conditioned introduced to it. Like a dog on a leash with a standard collar they are going to pull or run wild. You don't believe me take a dog that doesn't have leash training drop the leash behind them. Boom that dog is gone better get the truck we got to go find him. That prey drive can be a very strong force especially when something runs from them. That or in the case of a non-leash broke dog they feel they are being chased by the leash. Fear can send a dog into a 12 mile run if they think something's tied to their tail. That or a sensation at their neck or anywhere on their body they are not used to. Totally unknowing what to associate that with fear is the natural reaction. I know if I get a spider on me I freak out I hate spiders.😬 Not knowing what to do with that new stimulation at their neck or what to associate it with they will act erratically. They should be conditioned to associate that tactile feeling at the neck with you. Be it a leash and collar or annoying muscle tick at the proper levels in the proper amounts when off leash. If they know this they will immediately stop like they are on a standard collar and leash. Then turn look at you and wait for hand gestures cues body language and instruction. Now since I don't want my dog to keep chasing that bird into a highway from the Pheasant Field. I give him the place command vocals with the hand cue pointing toward the ground. If that doesn't get his attention to me he feels the quick bleep of the e collar. Muscle tense or vibration sometimes the vibration feature can be too much. It's usually not adjustable in intensity. I then repeat the hand cues with vocals with him now looking at me. He returns to my location abandoning the chase saving him from a run-in with a midsize sedan. A good 90% of service dogs have been conditioned to the e-collar. Under the direct supervision of a professional trainer. There are some exceptions but for the vast majority that is the route taken. Most dogs don't make it through certification to become service dogs. Then again that depends on the type of service dog we're talking about. Most dogs don't obtain that level of obedience without a more effective form of communication. Especially those in high distraction high drive situations. That's just my two cents on the whole e-collar shock collar thing. This whole subject brings up a lot of mixed feelings from a lot of people. In the end I would do what the dog best responds to. Let that dictate the training methods used and tools. Keeping their best interests well-being in mind. What works for one may not work for another. At the end of the day whatever you decide to do though I respect your opinion. It is absolutely your right as the owner of the dog. Hopefully my input and experience can help with what sounds to be some very difficult decisions. I feel a good professional trainer would be very valuable.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The OP hasn't logged in since the first day so I'm adding this in as a reminder.



alitoypoodle said:


> 5 pound toy poodle





alitoypoodle said:


> training classes about 6 months ago.
> My in-laws did not follow through with any training at home


"Proper" use of an e-collar is not meant to be a primary, or only, training method and that's what it would be in the OP's case.

Frontiers | Efficacy of Dog Training With and Without Remote Electronic Collars vs. a Focus on Positive Reinforcement (frontiersin.org)

The Myth of Low-Level Stim E-collar Training - Nitro K-9 LLC (nitrocanine.com)


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

Those are some pretty good links. The first one assumes you're going to teach the dog a new behaviors with the e-collar. The logic behind that study seems a little bit flawed. Not surprising that didn't turn out well it wouldn't be my method or intended use of the device. The second link implies all other training devices must not be an annoyance or aversive to the dog. Only the e-collar fits in that category apparently for some reason. The collars have been took apart and compared to tens units. Electronically on the hardware inside I can't tell the difference between them. Neither could the in-depth articles about them both. Aside from one being a certified a medical device🤔. In fact I can't think of any training tool that's not an annoyance abrasive or a aversive to a dog in some way. I know if I had a leash strapped to a collar around my neck. It would be very annoying being directed around like a horse. Every time I wanted to go sniff something or go astray I got a couple light tugs to refocus me back on my handler. I suppose they could put me in a harness full body. That would definitely protect my neck from any injury. I would be annoyed having to wear it though. I would feel like I was in a stright jacket for sure.😅 If I had the hearing of a dog my ears might be ringing after a loud whistle blow. Heck even somebody tapping their nails can be annoying aversive. Let alone running around with a clicker clicking at me if I had super hearing. One thing I think they illustrate well though. Basic training with positive reinforcement that's the foundation. If you're starting with an e collar especially to train a new behavior you're starting out wrong. Even the self-proclaimed professionals sometimes get it wrong. The ones in it for a quick buck want results fast because that's what the owner expects. They are more likely to pay for more time if they can see that quickly. Then you can milk them for their last dime and ensure a return customer. By insuring the dogs going to have more issues later on due to the poor methods used. That's why it's a very important to pick your trainer with scrutiny. I believe this is a leading cause of people dropping out of these classes. The cost just become too high or the time investment. Know the trainers methods and approach get involved in the process. Dropping a dog off to a trainer thinking they are going to work a miracle for you. Not being there involved in the entire process yourself. You're going to see the dark side of that industry pretty quickly in my honest opinion.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

alitoypoodle said:


> The dog is 1 year old. She took training classes about 6 months ago.
> 
> My in-laws did not follow through with any training at home, so nothing really helped at all.
> 
> ...


Have they tried a favorite squeaky toy to get the dogs attention? I carry a small sqeaker in my handbag all the time. Why? Because when I'm out and about somewhere and see this behavior, it allows me to help someone in need of getting their dog back in hand. It immediately gets their attention. They will usually stop and come running. Then given a sit command. Give a high reward treat and retrieve the dog. The dog should NEVER be off leash outside until trustworthy or never at all depending where they are. It sounds play deprived for it's age. Poodles love to play catch me if you can. They are stubborn to respond if they aren't done playing a game of their own making. If they know a high reward is coming, they usually respond in an eye blink. I only reach for reward bucket and they run for their rooms (crate) for that treat. My two young dogs (under 2 years) are still untrustworthy left out alone. Or I should say, my Golden Retriever. The SPOOs more mentally mature much quicker. They need to get this under control without destroying the pups future. No "special" shock ecollar/collaring. They are creating their problem. The pup needs to zoomie!!!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> Have they tried a favorite squeaky toy to get the dogs attention? I carry a small sqeaker in my handbag all the time. Why? Because when I'm out and about somewhere and see this behavior, it allows me to help someone in need of getting their dog back in hand. It immediately gets their attention. They will usually stop and come running. Then given a sit command. Give a high reward treat and retrieve the dog. The dog should NEVER be off leash outside until trustworthy or never at all depending where they are. It sounds play deprived for it's age. Poodles love to play catch me if you can. They are stubborn to respond if they aren't done playing a game of their own making. If they know a high reward is coming, they usually respond in an eye blink. I only reach for reward bucket and they run for their rooms (crate) for that treat. My two young dogs (under 2 years) are still untrustworthy left out alone. Or I should say, my Golden Retriever. The SPOOs more mentally mature much quicker. They need to get this under control without destroying the pups future. No "special" shock ecollar/collaring. They are creating their problem. The pup needs to zoomie!!!


Yes to all of this!


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