# To Post or Not Post OFA Results



## Moxie

roxy25 said:


> So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA ..... IMO that is not Gossip its a proven fact at that point !
> 
> 
> I wasnt going to jump in on this thread again but this post is still confusing me.
> I may be missing something? Are you implying if you do not find someone's health testing results on OFA or posted on their web site it must not be done?
> I am just trying to understand what you mean here? Thanks..


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## roxy25

Moxie said:


> roxy25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when some breeders claim to have complete health testing and you go to OFA and can't find it on there what does that mean ? on the website it says complete health testing OFA ..... IMO that is not Gossip its a proven fact at that point !
> 
> 
> I wasnt going to jump in on this thread again but this post is still confusing me.
> I may be missing something? Are you implying if you do not find someone's health testing results on OFA or posted on their web site it must not be done?
> I am just trying to understand what you mean here? Thanks..
> 
> 
> 
> No what I meant was.Lets say a breeder claims OFA on their website but when you go to OFA's website and look up their dogs names, they are not listed on OFA.
> 
> Hope that makes sense
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## Moxie

roxy25 said:


> Moxie said:
> 
> 
> 
> No what I meant was.Lets say a breeder claims OFA on their website but when you go to OFA's website and look up their dogs names, they are not listed on OFA.
> 
> Hope that makes sense
> 
> 
> 
> Ok,yes,I understand what your saying.But,do you understand that just because the "results" are not on OFA web site does not necessarily mean they are not done? Breeders have to pay an extra fee to have them posted,some do not want to pay more money to have it posted.Also, my understanding,is they also do not post prelim results either even though you may have paid the fee and have the report. Also,there are many breeders who do not put there 'personal" info ""reports,results" out there" on a web site for all to see for example but have them all to show for anyone who asks. I'm just saying,because just for an example right now,I have a new web site,still being worked on,my boys OFA prelim is done and OFA GOOD,but if you go to OFA you will not find that,and my "report" is not on my web site either,but I HAVE IT. So,I just think you need to be careful here on these kinds of implications ya know. Allot of people might not understand this and then go think "OH,they say OFA,but are not "ON" OFA,so they must not be done,and that just is not the case many times.Now,if they cannot PRESENT OR SHOW PROOF of the report,then that's a different matter,then I would think it's not done. Hope you see or understand what I'm saying.......
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## roxy25

Moxie said:


> roxy25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok,yes,I understand what your saying.But,do you understand that just because the "results" are not on OFA web site does not necessarily mean they are not done? Breeders have to pay an extra fee to have them posted,some do not want to pay more money to have it posted.Also, my understanding,is they also do not post prelim results either even though you may have paid the fee and have the report. Also,there are many breeders who do not put there 'personal" info ""reports,results" out there" on a web site for all to see for example but have them all to show for anyone who asks. I'm just saying,because just for an example right now,I have a new web site,still being worked on,my boys OFA prelim is done and OFA GOOD,but if you go to OFA you will not find that,and my "report" is not on my web site either,but I HAVE IT. So,I just think you need to be careful here on these kinds of implications ya know. Allot of people might not understand this and then go think "OH,they say OFA,but are not "ON" OFA,so they must not be done,and that just is not the case many times.Now,if they cannot PRESENT OR SHOW PROOF of the report,then that's a different matter,then I would think it's not done. Hope you see or understand what I'm saying.......
> 
> 
> 
> I know what you mean but its IMPOSSIBLE for dogs to have OFA good hips if they are under 24 months. I understand the pre lim thing but some breeders are saying pre lims = clearance for breeding and the said dog is only 1.5 years of age.
> 
> I know breeders do not have to put it up on OFA but if you are going to sport the OFA logo on you website stand by it. its not that much to pay extra for them to put that info up......
> 
> You can start a OFA thread if you want this has been talked about many times on here. You can check them out through the search engine
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## spoospirit

_This probably should be another thread but I am wondering, Moxie, why a breeder would do a test that potential buyers are looking for and not put it on the official web site where people would be going to look for it? It just seems to make sense to me to have it available for those doing their research.
_


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## roxy25

spoospirit said:


> _This probably should be another thread but I am wondering, Moxie, why a breeder would do a test that potential buyers are looking for and not put it on the official web site where people would be going to look for it? It just seems to make sense to me to have it available for those doing their research.
> _


I agree it just make its it easier to just look it up. My only conclusion of breeders not wanting to post is A) they are too cheap to pay an extra fee or B) recieved bad results and does not want the people to see it.

Again this is my opinion lol 

OFA is not the only health test out there so I can understand if a breeder used penn hip or something else. that of course will not be posted on OFA


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## Moxie

roxy25 said:


> I agree it just make its it easier to just look it up. My only conclusion of breeders not wanting to post is A) they are too cheap to pay an extra fee or B) recieved bad results and does not want the people to see it.
> 
> Again this is my opinion lol
> 
> OFA is not the only health test out there so I can understand if a breeder used penn hip or something else. that of course will not be posted on OFA


Well,yes,I guess I see your point as the fee is a small price to pay to have the results "posted" but also remember,some breeders have allot of dogs,so $12-$15 each dog to post the results can add up fast and this money can be applied maybe for them in better places and show there testing results to any prospective buyer for free. I can only speak for myself,I do plan to post all my results,but just some do not.Also again,as far as I know? Prelims are not posted on OFA,only the finals at age 2 or over. I'm just pointing out that "just because" they are not there,doesnt mean there not done,that's all.


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## roxy25

Moxie said:


> . I'm just pointing out that "just because" they are not there,doesnt mean there not done,that's all.


Again I understand that but when breeders are breeding dogs young they are already at a bad start so OFA is the last thing I am worried about at that point lol


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## desertreef

I'll chime in...
Yes, just because a test is not on the OFA site, does not mean it wasn't done. Take for example... VWD... one day I realized Kia's was not on there so I called them and they said just to send in the results and they'll do it. It was like 2 years after the test. I know it's a bad excuse, but we can forget to do simple things like that.
Also... many breeders don't 'need' to list with OFA... as long as they have the actually official results and give them to the 'potential' buyer.
When breeders have many dogs, they make their decision to pay for it or not. I know it's nice for researching but I do understand that not eveyone does. It doesn't bother me.

When I bred into the beautiful Lemerle line I was given copies of generation after generation of MANY health tests that were preformed. They were not all listed on OFA. All I care about is they were done and results were good.


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## spoospirit

_My apologies if this seems a bit off but another thread had gone off topic to this subject and I am interested in peoples' opinions on it.

It is about paying to have OFA results posted on their site. 

If you pick this up, Moxie, this is what I am asking about:

We aren't doing pre-lims. It cost as much to do a pre-lim at 1 1/2 ($200 per dog) as it cost to have the OFA at 2. That would be $400 in six months time and simply isn't worth the expense. If dogs are being bred intentionally under the age of two, then the pre-lims wouldn't be of any use to me anyway other than to tell me that they are being bred before the results of their hips are known.

Wouldn't you only be doing OFA on the dogs that you are actually breeding rather than all of the dogs at once? This would spread the expense out over time._


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## Moxie

spoospirit said:


> _I am going to start another thread for this subject so that others will participate.
> _


I think that's OK,I'm done.LOL Was just trying to make a point.
Night...Night....:rockon:


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## spoospirit

_There is a thread in the breeding section on whether to post or not the OFA results.

I will move the discussion to there since it really has nothing to do with pet prices.
_


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## desertreef

Oh, and I think someone mentioned putting the official paperwork of the test on their site. I won't take the chance they can get lifted... who knows today what people can do. See numbers and make copies. I don't trust anyone.
Years ago someone found a picture of my male on a website, as though he was there. Sure, just a picture. But if they could lie about that, what else can they be sneaky about?


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## desertreef

Correct me if I'm wrong... and trying to figure out your question...
Prelim would be for those who want to be sure their hips are looking good before they spend (any more) money on them ... to show, let's say.
Another reason would be if there was an accidental breeding. (talking stud of course)
I think it's wise in both cases to have it done... in those two cases.
Otherwise, if you are not breeding them yet, you can wait till after 2, as most people do.

Did that answer your question?


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## roxy25

> I'll chime in...
> Yes, just because a test is not on the OFA site, does not mean it wasn't done. Take for example... VWD... one day I realized Kia's was not on there so I called them and they said just to send in the results and they'll do it. It was like 2 years after the test. I know it's a bad excuse, but we can forget to do simple things like that.
> Also... many breeders don't 'need' to list with OFA... as long as they have the actually official results and give them to the 'potential' buyer.
> When breeders have many dogs, they make their decision to pay for it or not. I know it's nice for researching but I do understand that not eveyone does. It doesn't bother me.
> 
> When I bred into the beautiful Lemerle line I was given copies of generation after generation of MANY health tests that were preformed. They were not all listed on OFA. All I care about is they were done and results were good.


 I think I am not explaining what I meant correctly. I have no problems with breeders not posting OFA info, again their are other places to get the tests done. My problem is breeders LYING and saying their dogs are fully tested and are OFA hips .when its impossible to do so on a young dog.hips can change by the time they turn 2 years ofa understands this hence the pre lims 

I did not make my self clear in my first posting about OFA 

So I hope you guys are not confused now hahahah


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## spoospirit

_OK! Got it, Roxy! I did think you were talking about saying you had OFA's without them being listed on their site to prove it.

Yes, if there was an accidental breeding, as we were worried may have happened here, then I would do the pre-lim for sure. I can see doing a pre-lim on a show dog to decide if you are going to go ahead with its show career. 


_


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## cbrand

Prelims are NOT official hip scores. Breeding on prelims alone is not best breeding practices.

Posting results on OFA benefits the entire Poodle community since it helps people research lines. OFA requires official proof before they post anything so it is a clearing house that says, "My tests are valid." $12 is not very much to pay for this service. If a breeder has so many dogs that a $12 fee becomes burdensome, then they need to scale back the number of dogs they have. 

Yes, sometimes breeders don't list some tests. I myself never got around to listing VWBs or Thyroid on Sabrina although those tests were run and passed (thyroid twice). However, listing at least hips and eyes is the gold standard of good breeding. Ideally, all testing would be listed and this is going to be my goal as I go forward as a breeder.

Test scores are not personal information. Anyone worried about having tests posted publicly, should probably not get into breeding. The very best breeders let all aspects of their breeding program see the light of day.


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## spoospirit

_Thank you for your input, Cbrand. That is the direction in which I was thinking and you stated it very well. That is a small price to pay for tests results that are easily accessible to the public.
_


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## wishpoo

roxy25 said:


> I think I am not explaining what I meant correctly. I have no problems with breeders not posting OFA info, again their are other places to get the tests done. My problem is breeders LYING and saying their dogs are fully tested and are OFA hips .when its impossible to do so on a young dog.hips can change by the time they turn 2 years ofa understands this hence the pre lims


THAT IS MY PROBLEM TOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!! LYING !!!!! Lying if it was done and what was done !!!!!!! :fish: Not only OFA hips- but CERF TOO - the cheapest test that there is - WHYYYYYYYYYYY ???? : (((((

I agree with Cbrand - seeing at least those 2 posted on the official site woulld make a big difference !!!!


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## KPoos

How about acting indignant when you ask for test results? That happened to me at least twice by breeders that haven't done testing. That is just something I cannot stand. If you didn't do the testing, admit you didn't do it so that I don't waste my time with you anymore. Don't act like me asking is something unheard of and like I have no right.


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## spoospirit

_A sure sign it is time to move on, hey Kpoos? It's like getting caught with your pants down.
_


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## cbrand

KPoos said:


> How about acting indignant when you ask for test results? That happened to me at least twice by breeders that haven't done testing. That is just something I cannot stand. If you didn't do the testing, admit you didn't do it so that I don't waste my time with you anymore. Don't act like me asking is something unheard of and like I have no right.


Right, but lucky you! Sounds like they didn't pass the smell test. Best to learn this early on.


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## wishpoo

Yes - but it usually takes a week or two for that fact to come out :smow: So one can easily loose "a spot" in another deposit line-up while loosing time with particular dishonest breeder :doh:


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## KPoos

I know someone that had 2 puppies sold out from underneath her for doing the research into testing and lines.


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## Poodle Lover

I personally can't imagine a breeder paying hundreds of dollars for hip testing and evaluation and not to pay the extra $15 to have it posted. 

I also belong to the Havanese forum that has a lot of great breeders who champion their dogs and complete all the health testing before breeding. Their opinion is that if the test are performed, they should be posted on OFA website, period. Apparently they've ran into situations where the test results have been "doctored".


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## WonderPup

question; in tibbies we have like a breed database where you can research your pedigrees and what not. It's a much smaller community than it poodles so I suppose that makes it easier? Everyone knows everyone kind of thing though new people come on the scene all the time of course. 
Can I assume that this is not the case with poodles which is why is seems so important here for people to be able to go look a dog up on OFA? 

I myself do not see a need to post test results/numbers on my website or with OFA for the benifit of a potenial puppy buyer. My website is not intended as a shopping experience it's just me and my dogs and a little bit about each one along with the occasional plans to breed. IF somebody is interested in those litters they can contact me and then we can speak directly about anything and everything you'd care to know. I can and do provide hard copies of the tests in most cases prior to the actual breeding and if that isn't good enough then you're out of luck. If a buyer doesn't ask for the tests I bring it up myself because to my mind they aren't as well versed in the breed as they thought they were and weren't aware of some of the health issues or that they needed to ask about testing. That or they didn't care, if it's the later of the two I drop them from the potential homes list.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

It is nice to see that I am not the only breeder who does things the way I have to this point. Desertreef...I agree totally with not posting the documents on a web site. They can be lifted, and the name changed. People do unscrupulous things alll the time, and indeed lift photos of other people's dogs, so why not this too?? I also feel that if they are posted on a site, they should be on a separate page or a link. I think seeing them scattered all over a web site is distracting and clutters up the look of the site horribly. But, that is just my opinioln.

As we have discussed in the past, other coutries have different options of where some testing can be done. If someone lives in Canada, they may opt to have their hips done and certified through OVC (Ontario Veterinary College). These results do not get posted on OFA.

If a breeder will show or give a hard copy of testing results to a potential buyer or someone who is interested in using their stud dog, then they are not lying, and have proven that, and that is good enough for me.

Most of the people I have spoken to who have had their young male pre lim'd have done so to see if there is a CHANCE he will not work out in their breeding program, so they do not spend money on him going ahead with more testing, showing, etc. in the event his pre lim result is lousy. Should they rehome him?? Should they be looking into acquiring another stud puppy?? The pre lim gives them a bit of a heads up on what the future is going to hold for their boy, and they can begin to tentatively put some plans into place with him included, or begin looking in another direction without tying up extra time on a boy who may not measure up health wise.


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## Moxie

spoospirit said:


> _My apologies if this seems a bit off but another thread had gone off topic to this subject and I am interested in peoples' opinions on it.
> 
> It is about paying to have OFA results posted on their site.
> 
> If you pick this up, Moxie, this is what I am asking about:
> 
> We aren't doing pre-lims. It cost as much to do a pre-lim at 1 1/2 ($200 per dog) as it cost to have the OFA at 2. That would be $400 in six months time and simply isn't worth the expense. If dogs are being bred intentionally under the age of two, then the pre-lims wouldn't be of any use to me anyway other than to tell me that they are being bred before the results of their hips are known.
> 
> Wouldn't you only be doing OFA on the dogs that you are actually breeding rather than all of the dogs at once? This would spread the expense out over time._


Well,the expense of a prelim might not be worth it to you to do to get and idea of your dogs hips but it is worth it to me as well as MANY other breeders esp when they are showing their dogs.Showing a dog is very expensive,and as others have already pointed out,a breeders doesnt want to continue spending lots of money or investments on a dog that has bad hips.
A prelim has nothing to do with "breeding" the dog young either,it's to let the owner know how they are looking before investing any more.In addition,there
is a big difference between breeding a male at say 1 1/2 years old and a female.A male is plenty willing,able,and mature enough to breed at this age verses a female which people feel needs more time to mature to mentally be ready for raising and being a good mom for her pups.Also,a official OFA rating report on a prelim is a pretty accurate final assessment. That is exactly WHY
many breeders do it,and their are statistics on this somewhere,prelims usually do not change or only improve to their final reading.


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## cbrand

Moxie said:


> In addition,there
> is a big difference between breeding a male at say 1 1/2 years old and a female.A male is plenty willing,able,and mature enough to breed at this age verses a female which people feel needs more time to mature to mentally be ready for raising and being a good mom for her pups.Also,a official OFA rating report on a prelim is a pretty accurate final assessment. That is exactly WHY
> many breeders do it,and their are statistics on this somewhere,prelims usually do not change or only improve to their final reading.


In our breed there are a number of health issues that can not be tested for and that require a wait and see approach by the breeder. Although a dog may be "ready and willing" this is absolutely NO REASON to breed him. For the sake of the long term health of our breed, please take some time to educate yourself about this issue. 

Prelim scores do change and I'm sorry but usually for the worse. I've seen it happen. This is one reason that OFA will not certify hips until age 2.


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## desertreef

Poodle Lover said:


> I personally can't imagine a breeder paying hundreds of dollars for hip testing and evaluation and not to pay the extra $15 to have it posted.
> 
> I just faxed the OFA Hip Dysplasia form to the vet doing the xray on Grace this morning. To list it with OFA, which is really a must... is $35 for Hips and $40 for hips and elbows together.
> 
> Karen


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## desertreef

A male is plenty willing said:


> I believe this is all true!
> Again... there are times that $100 should be spent.
> I thought I've seen hip prelims listed on OFA too. I'll have to find one again. They just write at the bottom, something about it needing to be officially done after 2 years of age.


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## Poodle Lover

desertreef said:


> Poodle Lover said:
> 
> 
> 
> I personally can't imagine a breeder paying hundreds of dollars for hip testing and evaluation and not to pay the extra $15 to have it posted.
> 
> I just faxed the OFA Hip Dysplasia form to the vet doing the xray on Grace this morning. To list it with OFA, which is really a must... is $35 for Hips and $40 for hips and elbows together.
> 
> Karen
> 
> 
> 
> I guess the prices for posting goes up with inflation, just like everything else. I still think it's well worth the price. Thanks for the updated info.
Click to expand...


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## Moxie

cbrand said:


> In our breed there are a number of health issues that can not be tested for and that require a wait and see approach by the breeder. Although a dog may be "ready and willing" this is absolutely NO REASON to breed him. For the sake of the long term health of our breed, please take some time to educate yourself about this issue.
> 
> Prelim scores do change and I'm sorry but usually for the worse. I've seen it happen. This is one reason that OFA will not certify hips until age 2.


No,it may not be "a reason" but there is also nothing wrong with it either.Breeders have MANY different reasons and things they weigh when they make decisions about a particular breeding.It is no one else's business or "judgment" to know all and what those decisions are,they weigh before they may make a decision to do a particular breeding.I have educated myself on this issue and will always continue to do so,thank you. Although it may be "possible" for a prelim to change for the worse by 2 it is not the norm and in most cases does in fact change for the better in MOST cases.If you have statistics showing otherwise I would love to see them and back this up.The prelim report is read by the same 3 vet panel and rated the same as the "final word" at 2. Two years old is not some magical number.
In closing,I am really not interested in continuing any kind of thread that takes on the direction of attacks or spitting matchs about an issue or toward me,esp. from someone,anyone,who doesn't know me or my dogs.I think to make a comment like"please take some time to educate yourself about the issue" is just nasty,rude,and inflammatory.You do not know my extent of knowledge on this issue or any other,and it is fine to disagree about any issue,but doesnt make you right or me wrong.Opinions are just those,opinions,and we all have them and are entitled to different ones.


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## cbrand

Moxie said:


> I think to make a comment like"please take some time to educate yourself about the issue" is just nasty,rude,and inflammatory.You do not know my extent of knowledge on this issue or any other,and it is fine to disagree about any issue,but doesnt make you right or me wrong.Opinions are just those,opinions,and we all have them and are entitled to different ones.


When you say "A male is plenty willing,able,and mature enough to breed at this age", I have a pretty good idea about your extent of knowledge and experience.

If you spend some time reading Poodle magazines, attending breeder forums held at AKC shows and participating in other Poodle online forums, you will discover that across the country, experienced breeders share the opinion that it is best to take a "wait and see" approach to breeding.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Moxie said:


> No,it may not be "a reason" but there is also nothing wrong with it either.Breeders have MANY different reasons and things they weigh when they make decisions about a particular breeding.It is no one else's business or "judgment" to know all and what those decisions are,they weigh before they may make a decision to do a particular breeding.I have educated myself on this issue and will always continue to do so,thank you. Although it may be "possible" for a prelim to change for the worse by 2 it is not the norm and in most cases does in fact change for the better in MOST cases.If you have statistics showing otherwise I would love to see them and back this up.The prelim report is read by the same 3 vet panel and rated the same as the "final word" at 2. Two years old is not some magical number.
> In closing,I am really not interested in continuing any kind of thread that takes on the direction of attacks or spitting matchs about an issue or toward me,esp. from someone,anyone,who doesn't know me or my dogs.I think to make a comment like"please take some time to educate yourself about the issue" is just nasty,rude,and inflammatory.You do not know my extent of knowledge on this issue or any other,and it is fine to disagree about any issue,but doesnt make you right or me wrong.Opinions are just those,opinions,and we all have them and are entitled to different ones.




Yes indeed, we should have a right to our own opinion, as well as having the right to use other methods of testing where and when available.

I too have always heard and read that the general rule of thumb is the final evaluation at 2 will USUALLY be the same as the prre lim or be improved.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

cbrand said:


> When you say "A male is plenty willing,able,and mature enough to breed at this age", I have a pretty good idea about your extent of knowledge and experience.
> 
> If you spend some time reading Poodle magazines, attending breeder forums held at AKC shows and participating in other Poodle online forums, you will discover that across the country, experienced breeders share the opinion that it is best to take a "wait and see" approach to breeding.


SOME experienced breeders.


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## Poodle Lover

I am not a breeder and have no aspirations to ever become one. Both of my spoos were rescues/private adoptions from unfortunate situations. There were no health testing on them, no pedigrees to check, nothing. They were both BYB and my female is a really bad example of inbreeding (mom and dad litter mates!). We knew the situation and rescued them as they were. I don't know what and if my hubby paid for the female, my male cost me $100, period. So far they are happy and healthy and have a loving home. But my next pup will come from a reputable breeder, with all the health testing done and posted where I can see the proof. If I am to spend $2,000 for a dog, I want ribbons, health testing and a breeder who will stand behind their dogs 100%. Not a puppy replacement that is pretty much worthless in my eyes, as I would never give up my baby. But a guarantee to help with vet bills up to the purchase price of a puppy. I refuse to support breeders who ride the tail coats of the ones who put in the work, money, effort and love into raising, grooming, showing, titling and health testing their dogs. That's just my personal opinion and I am off my box now.


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## Harley_chik

I just don't understand why someone would breed a dog that was under 2 years of age, on purpose. There are some breeders that think 2 is the bare minimum and waiting until 3 or even 4 yrs is even better b/c certain things like bloat, addison's and SA are more likely to show up if they are present. Hips aren't the only health problem Poodles have. What's the rush? 

Why would a breeder list prelims on their website or anywhere? It seems like that is something that the breeder does for themselves (this is what I've gathered from the opinions on this forum) and isn't an official screening, so why make it available to puppy buyers? It just seems confusing to do so.


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## thestars

Since this post is about "To Post or Not Post OFA Results" I'll put in my two cents...

Post them be it Prelims or Finals, just post them. It is a good tool and the current "gold standard" for Puppy buyers to make informed decisions.

Even OFA states, "The databases of the OFA give breeders access to the health screening results of hundreds of thousands of dogs, allowing them to increase the selective pressure to produce healthy dogs free of inherited diseases." "Over the last 40 years many breeds have seen their incidence of hip dysplasia drop because of the use of OFA ratings." 

I wish there were more people who would have their dogs x-rayed and tested we could get more studies about polygenic diseases.


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## cbrand

Harley_chik said:


> Hips aren't the only health problem Poodles have. What's the rush?



Profit.


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## Harley_chik

cbrand said:


> Profit.


You're awesome!


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## spoospirit

cbrand said:


> Profit.


_Agreed..._


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## thestars

cbrand said:


> Profit.


Totally agree!

For an example lets look at this male;Palmares Elegant Lion Of Judah - Dugan
Dugan - Whelped 20 Apr 2007
First Litter sired - whelped 26 Jul 2008
Second Litter sired - whelped 30 Jul 2008
Third Litter sired - whelped 15 Aug 2008
Fourth Litter sired - whelped 13 Sep 2008
Fifth Litter sired - whelped 23 Feb 2009
According to Poodle Health registry he sired 5 litters before the age of 2 and before his hips were certified with OFA at 28 months of age; PO-18017G28M-VPI

What was the rush with breeding this male? These 5 litters don't look like accidents to me.


----------



## bigredpoodle

Wow ! All before two?


----------



## roxy25

thestars said:


> Totally agree!
> 
> For an example lets look at this male;Palmares Elegant Lion Of Judah - Dugan
> Dugan - Whelped 20 Apr 2007
> First Litter sired - whelped 26 Jul 2008
> Second Litter sired - whelped 30 Jul 2008
> Third Litter sired - whelped 15 Aug 2008
> Fourth Litter sired - whelped 13 Sep 2008
> Fifth Litter sired - whelped 23 Feb 2009
> According to Poodle Health registry he sired 5 litters before the age of 2 and before his hips were certified with OFA at 28 months of age; PO-18017G28M-VPI
> 
> What was the rush with breeding this male? These 5 litters don't look like accidents to me.


What about these 

Majestic Sheroc legend of Fire Whelped 14 May 2007 
first litter whelped 08 Jun 2008
second whelped 24 Sep 2008
Third whelped 12 Feb 2009

I can also get a whole list of bijou dogs where she bred her dogs before 2 

:wacko::wacko:


You can view that on poodle pedigree or PHRdatabase.org

So I am not sure what was your point ? lol Seems like a lot of red breeders are breeding dogs young.


----------



## Harley_chik

Thanks Roxy, I don't understand pointing fingers when your own house isn't in order.


----------



## roxy25

Harley_chik said:


> Thanks Roxy, I don't understand pointing fingers when your own house isn't in order.



I agree I don't understand why you red breeders are fighting with each other ! Please take it to pms from her on out and :focus:


----------



## thestars

roxy25 said:


> What about these
> 
> Majestic Sheroc legend of Fire Whelped 14 May 2007
> first litter whelped 08 Jun 2008
> second whelped 24 Sep 2008
> Third whelped 12 Feb 2009
> 
> I can also get a whole list of bijou dogs where she bred her dogs before 2
> 
> :wacko::wacko:
> 
> 
> You can view that on poodle pedigree or PHRdatabase.org
> 
> So I am not sure what was your point ? lol Seems like a lot of red breeders are breeding dogs young.


The point is Profit.
These are ONLY the listed PHR breedings. Apparently Dugan has been used in Parti and Doodle breedings as well which may or may not eventually make it into PHR.

I don't care whom you bring up as other examples. Why don't you use Enzo's lineage as well since you dine to chime in?


----------



## roxy25

thestars said:


> The point is Profit.
> These are ONLY the listed PHR breedings. Apparently Dugan has been used in Parti and Doodle breedings as well which may or may not eventually make it into PHR.
> 
> I don't care whom you bring up as other examples. Why don't you use Enzo's lineage as well since you dine to chime in?


Yes you do not care since they are you FRIENDS :rolffleyes:

Again lets not bring up Bindi's breeder shall we ? We know Enzo did not come from a good breeder at least I know it and posted about it several times. you seem to think Bindi's breeder is so divine LMAO 

This thread is about weather or not to post results on OFA so please back to topic.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

thestars said:


> Totally agree!
> 
> For an example lets look at this male;Palmares Elegant Lion Of Judah - Dugan
> Dugan - Whelped 20 Apr 2007
> First Litter sired - whelped 26 Jul 2008
> Second Litter sired - whelped 30 Jul 2008
> Third Litter sired - whelped 15 Aug 2008
> Fourth Litter sired - whelped 13 Sep 2008
> Fifth Litter sired - whelped 23 Feb 2009
> According to Poodle Health registry he sired 5 litters before the age of 2 and before his hips were certified with OFA at 28 months of age; PO-18017G28M-VPI
> 
> What was the rush with breeding this male? These 5 litters don't look like accidents to me.


Well, I can only speak for myself. Two of those litters listed were litters I used him for. I have been over this on various threads on here before, and this will likely be the final time I give you my side of this. It seems when you people run out of other ways to try and attack your competition, you bring up the same things over and over again.

I personally wanted to use Dugan for many reasons.He brought a lot to the table as far as what I was hoping to achieve with my breeding efforts. First and foremost, his COI is decent, a far cry from the 38-48% I was seeing on some of the dogs being offered at stud. I know some of you do not value a low COI, or maybe you do but own a dog with an extremely high COI, so better to go with the pack that says it doesn't matter, but I do care! I was extremely happy that this boy had little to no common ancestors with my bitch. I liked his body type, I loved his head, his temperament is amazing, I like that his origins were Palmares Poodles, one of the breeders who is responsible for developing the reds in North America. His owner had his hips xrayed when he was about 13 months old, and her vet told her his hips were lovely and tight, and were in fact the tightest Poodle hips he had seen. My girl is very big, so his structure compliments hers. All the things he is and has compliment my girl. Where he may be lacking, she is outstanding.

You may judge me, you may pick on me, you may do whatever you like with this information, but you will never make me regret adding this delightful, beautiful, healthy boy to my breeding program!!! And yes I am aware I took a risk, but the risk paid off. His hips have since been certified, and to date his puppies are gloriously beautiful, healthy and I might add, cherished by remarkable families who think the sun rises and sets on his children.


----------



## Cdnjennga

As a puppy buyer, it's certainly helpful when results are posted on OFA. I think it should (and will be) the standard moving forward. As our world becomes more and more digital, everything will be at our finger tips, including health testing results! However, as I've said before, there are other certifications outside of OFA. Perhaps what would be better is a neutral database that could list all accepted International testings (OFA, Pennhip, OVC, etc). Now THAT would be great!

I personally do not think prelims should be listed, or they should be listed in a separate part of the website. You can argue that 2 years old is an arbitrary age to certify dogs, but for now, that's what it is. As long as that's the case then I do not think prelims are equal to actual certification and should not be treated as such. The word "preliminary" is there for a reason IMO.


----------



## thestars

Roxy25, You have it ALL wrong! Who said I was Friends with Bindi's Breeder? I have a friendly relationship with my breeders yet they are not my friends. That's two different things. And when did I ever say she was devine? Few red breeders test to the "gold standard", set by breeders and forums, of OFA & Vetgen. Of those Red breeders I only am aware of two that use the "Gold standard", if you want to extend that out to apricot breeders then I know more. So the topic is still there of Posting on OFA since OFA is the "gold standard."

I said earlier in this thread, that I wish more people tested and posted. How can you get trends and accurate statistics if they don't post even as a breeder. You only see a peak at the whole picture of the health in a line.


----------



## roxy25

Cdnjennga said:


> As a puppy buyer, it's certainly helpful when results are posted on OFA. I think it should (and will be) the standard moving forward. As our world becomes more and more digital, everything will be at our finger tips, including health testing results! However, as I've said before, there are other certifications outside of OFA. Perhaps what would be better is a neutral database that could list all accepted International testings (OFA, Pennhip, OVC, etc). Now THAT would be great!
> 
> I personally do not think prelims should be listed, or they should be listed in a separate part of the website. You can argue that 2 years old is an arbitrary age to certify dogs, but for now, that's what it is. As long as that's the case then I do not think prelims are equal to actual certification and should not be treated as such. The word "preliminary" is there for a reason IMO.


I like how you can do searches as well on the internet it makes things easier. I have no problem if a breeder does not post or not but they need to have proof.


----------



## Harley_chik

Cdnjennga said:


> As a puppy buyer, it's certainly helpful when results are posted on OFA. I think it should (and will be) the standard moving forward. As our world becomes more and more digital, everything will be at our finger tips, including health testing results! However, as I've said before, there are other certifications outside of OFA. Perhaps what would be better is a neutral database that could list all accepted International testings (OFA, Pennhip, OVC, etc). Now THAT would be great!
> 
> I personally do not think prelims should be listed, or they should be listed in a separate part of the website. You can argue that 2 years old is an arbitrary age to certify dogs, but for now, that's what it is. As long as that's the case then I do not think prelims are equal to actual certification and should not be treated as such. The word "preliminary" is there for a reason IMO.


IA, there's a reason why OFA won't list prelims. I think listing official results on the OFA site is great and it seems like it would be more convienent for everyone involved. However, if a breeder doesn't want to list it, it's their choice. As long as they are willing to provide real documentation (not a handwritten note from a vet or prelims), then I certainly wouldn't think any less of them as a breeder.

I think bringing Dugan into the thread was a cheap shot. It was general discussion, why make it personal?


----------



## thestars

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> You may judge me, you may pick on me, you may do whatever you like with this information, but you will never make me regret adding this delightful, beautiful, healthy boy to my breeding program!!!


Since you don't own him I'm NOT picking on you! I am just providing IMO an example of Profiting on a dog versus Responsible Breeding practices which have become a standard. I am glad that she did eventually get his Hips certified and hope the bitches are certified as well for the betterment of the Red breeding programs around the world. I could post the same about any color out their.

Testing to the "Gold standard" has become the norm and not the exception. So breeders should support what has been defined as the norm.


----------



## roxy25

thestars said:


> Roxy25, You have it ALL wrong! Who said I was Friends with Bindi's Breeder? I have a friendly relationship with my breeders yet they are not my friends. That's two different things. And when did I ever say she was devine? Few red breeders test to the "gold standard", set by breeders and forums, of OFA & Vetgen. Of those Red breeders I only am aware of two that use the "Gold standard", if you want to extend that out to apricot breeders then I know more. So the topic is still there of Posting on OFA since OFA is the "gold standard."
> 
> I said earlier in this thread, that I wish more people tested and posted. How can you get trends and accurate statistics if they don't post even as a breeder. You only see a peak at the whole picture of the health in a line.


Ok thestars I know I am not the only one who sees you as friends with Laura I am not just making stuff up. It Obvious every time she comes up you go ahead and post to defend her breeding practices. 

I agree with you on the testing and red breeders. You totally just threw Arreau's dog in the mix and no one is talking about him. This discussion is about weather or not to post OFA results I brought up the young thing because CERTAIN breeders that have the " golden standard" say OFA but their dogs can not be listed due to them NOT being 24 months old. 

You and bigredpoodle seem to have a problem with Arreau you both can take it to PMs or private emails if you feel like attacking her on every health and breeding thread. This is my last and final warning . I think the community agrees with me on " we are sick of good thread turning sour because of few people have problems with each other"


----------



## Purple Poodle

I personally feel that if your dog has an OFA score it should be listed on the OFA site. As a responsible breeder or stud dog owner you should pay that little extra to have it listed.

I also feel that you should not even have a prelim option and just have a limit be 2 years of age.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I hope the people who read these threads understand that some of the breeders who seem to be at each other all the time have a history outside of this forum. The new comers on this forum must either get a good laugh out of the obvious nature of some people's attacks and posts or shake their heads in total disgust.

We all have different ways of doing things. The Gold Standard in the US is not necessarily the gold standard in other parts of the world, or maybe it is but other areas have other options. It is completely up to the individual which way they go with regard to testing, and how they share their results with prospective buyers or people wishing to use their stud dog. I am a BIT confused because Thestars posted a link today which states all the reasons Pennhip is better than OFA . Well, if someone chooses Pennhip without duplicating as the author says, then the results won't be on OFA anyway.

"Peace and love"..."Judge not lest ye be judged" "be nice to others and don't tear them apart" "walk a mile in their shoes" are all things that have been posted on some threads lately. Maybe everyone should practice what they preach|!!


----------



## thestars

roxy25 said:


> Ok thestars I know I am not the only one who sees you as friends with Laura I am not just making stuff up. It Obvious every time she comes up you go ahead and post to defend her breeding practices.
> 
> I agree with you on the testing and red breeders. You totally just threw Arreau's dog in the mix and no one is talking about him. This discussion is about weather or not to post OFA results I brought up the young thing because CERTAIN breeders that have the " golden standard" say OFA but their dogs can not be listed due to them NOT being 24 months old.
> 
> You and bigredpoodle seem to have a problem with Arreau you both can take it to PMs or private emails if you feel like attacking her on every health and breeding thread. This is my last and final warning . I think the community agrees with me on " we are sick of good thread turning sour because of few people have problems with each other"


I AM NOT FRIENDS WITH LAURA! I have had a working, friendly relationship with Bindi's breeder as well as with my other Poodles breeders. I defend aspects of her breeding program such as testing and showing and not having multitudes of dogs living in kennels. As for what she does in other avenues of her breeding practices I am not privy to them. I know more about the breeders and breeding practices within the Poodle Club I am associated with more so then Laura's.

As far as I know Silken owns Dugan and not Arreau.

I do not have a problem with anyone here, you are assuming way to much!!!:nono:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

roxy25 said:


> I like how you can do searches as well on the internet it makes things easier. I have no problem if a breeder does not post or not but they need to have proof.[/QUOTE
> 
> Thanks Roxy for pointing out the obvious. I have been getting private messages up the wazoo, people asking me what Bigredpoodle's problem is with me. I wish I knew. But I agree. If you would like to pick on me or degrade me anymore, send me a message on my home email, or PM me here please. I am embarrassed to be a part of this anymore. I am not ashamed of ANYTHING I have done, or the pups I produce, so I implore you, for the sake of others on this forum, either leave me alone, or do your nitpicking on private messages.
> 
> BTW...Dugan is not my dog, but is owned by my very best breeder friend, a woman who has more class than to join this forum and retaliate about the insinuations being made by some here.


----------



## thestars

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am a BIT confused because Thestars posted a link today which states all the reasons Pennhip is better than OFA . Well, if someone chooses Pennhip without duplicating as the author says, then the results won't be on OFA anyway.
> 
> "Peace and love"..."Just not lest we be judged" "be nice to others and don't tear them apart" "walk a mile in their shoes" are all things that have been posted on some threads lately. Maybe everyone should practice what they preach|!!


I beg to differ on the subject about Pennhip versus OFA. I find both as very useful tools and there is value in having Pennhip as well as OFA. I made no positive or negative comments about the contents just that I thought they were good reads.

I have two postings one the article from Ben J. Character, Veterinarian
Breeding decisions: PennHIP vs. OFA
http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/columns/story?columnist=character_ben&page=sd_col_Character_breeding_PH-OFA
and 
Hip Xrays and good positioning
his is an EXCELLENT link on learning about the hip x-rays and good positioning and even examples of HD.
http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

Even though not a poodle breeder this breeder did years of study on her breeding dogs and their litters. A very interesting read;
http://octobersetters.com/hippro.html

OFA is still the "gold standard and I say post prelims and finals and Pennhip if you got them all!!! The posting is painless and will help present and future breeding programs as well as benefit the breed and dogs as a whole!


----------



## Harley_chik

thestars said:


> I AM NOT FRIENDS WITH LAURA! I have had a working, friendly relationship with Bindi's breeder as well as with my other Poodles breeders. I defend aspects of her breeding program such as testing and showing and not having multitudes of dogs living in kennels. As for what she does in other avenues of her breeding practices I am not privy to them. I know more about the breeders and breeding practices within the Poodle Club I am associated with more so then Laura's.
> 
> As far as I know Silken owns Dugan and not Arreau.
> 
> I do not have a problem with anyone here, you are assuming way to much!!!:nono:


Do you really believe your own post? Even the PM you sent me made it sound like A) you are in fact friends w/ Laura and B) you have a serious issue w/ Arreau. If Laura isn't your friend and you don't have a problem with Arreau then why get involved in their business? I'm not the only one that saw the mention of Dugan as a shot at Arreau and I honestly think that's how you meant it. You know he is associated w/ Arreau's program and most people here know of Dugan b/c Arreau has mentioned him. Why pick that dog if it wasn't to get Arreau's attention?


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

thestars said:


> I beg to differ on the subject about Pennhip versus OFA. I find both as very useful tools and there is value in having Pennhip as well as OFA. I made no positive or negative comments about the contents just that I thought they were good reads.
> 
> I have two postings one the article from Ben J. Character, Veterinarian
> Breeding decisions: PennHIP vs. OFA
> http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/columns/story?columnist=character_ben&page=sd_col_Character_breeding_PH-OFA
> and
> Hip Xrays and good positioning
> his is an EXCELLENT link on learning about the hip x-rays and good positioning and even examples of HD.
> http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm
> 
> Even though not a poodle breeder this breeder did years of study on her breeding dogs and their litters. A very interesting read;
> http://octobersetters.com/hippro.html
> 
> OFA is still the "gold standard and I say post prelims and finals and Pennhip if you got them all!!! The posting is painless and will help present and future breeding programs as well as benefit the breed and dogs as a whole!


Oh, it is my intent to post all of my results on OFA from here on in. Not because I have to (because in Canada, we can use OVC) and not because it makes on iota of difference to me (because if I am interested in acquiring a pup or using a stud dog from another breeder, all I need to do is have them mail me their results) but simply because I would like to be able to come to places like this forum, where most of the members are American, and SOME of the members are so incredibly single minded, and just be able to be a part of things without having fingers pointed at me and for me and my co-breeders to not be harrassed and picked on. So, YAHOOOOOO, I have officially joined your club. Happy now...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Harley_chik said:


> Do you really believe your own post? Even the PM you sent me made it sound like A) you are in fact friends w/ Laura and B) you have a serious issue w/ Arreau. If Laura isn't your friend and you don't have a problem with Arreau then why get involved in their business? I'm not the only one that saw the mention of Dugan as a shot at Arreau and I honestly think that's how you meant it. You know he is associated w/ Arreau's program and most people here know of b/c Arreau has mentioned him. Why pick that dog if it wasn't to get Arreau's attention?


My sentiments exactly. I am sure most of us are aware of what is going on behind the scenes here.... I was just waiting for this sort of thing to happen. One gets irrate with me about God knows what...then the other steps in to do her dirty work. Its okay. I have broad shoulders, and like I said in my previous post, I will never regret having Dugan in my breeding program`, I am proud of my puppies, and have wonderful relationships with their families. I figure if someone needs to harass and pick on me, well, I must be doing something right because I would think they must consider me an enormous threat!!


----------



## spoospirit

_*OK! I had a simple question and again it has gone wayward for a bit. I hope we are done with that. So sad!*

Not having any dogs at the age of two yet, I am seriously interested in the debate about the benefits or the cons of posting OFA results on the site. I have found some interesting points on both sides of the question and some in the middle. Good food for thought. I want to thank those who kept to the reason for the question and did not turn this into yet another way to attack breeders they disagree with.....SIGH!

I certainly can see having a prelim done if you are going to invest in showing which is very expensive and you want to make sure that you have a dog that has a good chance at passing its OFA. 

I don't have a problem with alternate tests that show the same results. If another form was used to test then it obviously would not show up on the OFA site. In that case I would need to look elsewhere or contact a breeder I'm interested in to get hard copy proof of the test. However, if a test is listed on the breeders site as OFA'd and is not on the OFA site then I would challenge that when I contacted the breeder. Things do happen and it is possible that it was not listed either by the choice of the breeder or an error on OFA's part. I would certainly give the breeder the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think there is only one good practice. As long as a breeder claims to be doing the testing, has actually done it and has proof of it, it's all good.

We have decided to put testing on our web site and link it to the site where it can be found. We feel that it this makes it easier for those looking for puppies from a home that does testing and we like the idea of that. This in no way means that someone else's practices are wrong.
_


----------



## KalaMama

spoospirit said:


> _*.
> 
> We have decided to put testing on our web site and link it to the site where it can be found. We feel that it this makes it easier for those looking for puppies from a home that does testing and we like the idea of that. This in no way means that someone else's practices are wrong.
> *_


*

I think it is a great idea to have copies of the results on a breeder's website(if there is any info on the results that wouldn't need to be public it could be blocked out). I know those of us on here are avid Poodle lovers who like to converse on the internet, but there are many people out there who also love Poodles but don't get so in depth about it all. They may know about health testing but would rather just see it easily than go research it to find a pet puppy. 

Therefore, I think posting on OFA is a good idea and I don't see any reason not too, but I don't think it is absolutely necessary.*


----------



## Taxi

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I hope the people who read these threads understand that some of the breeders who seem to be at each other all the time have a history outside of this forum. The new comers on this forum must either get a good laugh out of the obvious nature of some people's attacks and posts or shake their heads in total disgust.
> 
> <snip>


Arreau you speak the truth. As a very new member you have to Laugh. Its the best of Reality TV & a Soap Opera rolled into one and best of all... it revolves around POODLES (my favorite).


----------



## bigredpoodle

I don't think there is only one good practice. As long as a breeder claims to be doing the testing, has actually done it and has proof of it, it's all good.

We have decided to put testing on our web site and link it to the site where it can be found. We feel that it this makes it easier for those looking for puppies from a home that does testing and we like the idea of that. This in no way means that someone else's practices are wrong.
[/COLOR][/I][/QUOTE]
I agree about posting test results on the website..... We do this. I find it sad and disturbing that soemone might steal them. 
WE like for folks to be able to snoop around and see for themselves what we have done and why.. Works for us ......


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Taxi said:


> Arreau you speak the truth. As a very new member you have to Laugh. Its the best of Reality TV & a Soap Opera rolled into one and best of all... it revolves around POODLES (my favorite).


INDEED!!! Never a dull moment!!! We have our own soap opera here...As The Poodle Turns...


----------



## desertreef

With the advancement of having X-rays put on digital, it is another good way to prove to others that they have good hips.
My girl, Grace, was done a couple of days ago and her vet sent them to me by an email attachment.
Positioning could have been a tweek better but they are very good, perhaps excellent.

Karen


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## spoospirit

_That's fabulous!! I love the idea of receiving your xrays via e-mail.
_


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## Dogsinstyle

That is soo cool Karen! Last x-rays I had done, I brought them home and stuck them on a window to photograph.
These were rated good (Winnie)
Carole


----------



## bigredpoodle

spoospirit said:


> _That's fabulous!! I love the idea of receiving your xrays via e-mail.
> _


It is much faster as far as getting results back And getting them posted as well..It is pretty awful to lose xrays in the mail But it does happen ..
I should ask to have them emailed to me next time thanks for the tip karen !


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## Cdnjennga

Ooh fun, loving the hip x-rays! If anyone has any others they'd like to share, please do so, I like looking at them! Does that make me weird?


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## thestars

Cdnjennga said:


> Ooh fun, loving the hip x-rays! If anyone has any others they'd like to share, please do so, I like looking at them! Does that make me weird?


Nope, not weird at all! I like x-rays and test results and all that jazz too. It even came up on my Birkman test that my interests lie in Science.


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## plumcrazy

Cdnjennga said:


> Does that make me weird?


That's like me asking my husband, "Do these pants make my butt look fat?" and his answer, "No, honey... Your butt makes your butt look fat." :lol: :fish: :wacko:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

plumcrazy said:


> That's like me asking my husband, "Do these pants make my butt look fat?" and his answer, "No, honey... Your butt makes your butt look fat." :lol: :fish: :wacko:


OMG!!! THAT is funny!!!


----------



## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> OMG!!! THAT is funny!!!


HEY!!! WHOSE SIDE ARE YOU ON??? I'm going to tell Vid you like him best!!  Oh, and I'm home from lunch by the way! :lol:


----------



## spoospirit

plumcrazy said:


> That's like me asking my husband, "Do these pants make my butt look fat?" and his answer, "No, honey... Your butt makes your butt look fat." :lol: :fish: :wacko:


ound:


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## amerique2

Love seeing the hips x-ray! Thanks.

So, when you have your test results listed on the OFA website, you pay individually (or grouped such as hips and elbows) for each test listed, is that right? To make sure I understand, for example (just using arbitrary figures): you pay $30 to have hip test results listed, $12 to have vWD test results listed, $15 for thyroid test results listed, $15 cardiology, $15 CERF, etc.


----------



## missmygirls

roxy25 said:


> Again I understand that but when breeders are breeding dogs young they are already at a bad start so OFA is the last thing I am worried about at that point lol


Is there a book on how to buy a good quality poodle for dummies out there. I am overwhelmed by most of what i am learning on this site. I dont think I understand half of it. Can you tell me what questions to ask a breeder about a mini and what I should look for in the parents and the line. Ty.

Ps. What age should the dogs be bred?


----------



## outwest

They shouldn't be bred before the age of 2 years old. You should look on the poodle pedigree site to see their pedigree. It also list their coefficient of inbreeding. It is nice to see that under 10%. It means they aren't too inbred, but many show poodles are slightly over that (not all are). 

Basically, you want healthy parents and a healthy puppy and a nice personality. You can overwhelm yourself with details. With mini's I would be particularly careful with the pedigree and the breeder. Lots of minis are long bodied and short legged. It doesn't make them any less a wonderful pet, but a wellbred mini is a gorgeous thing. They should have long legs. Look at the sire and dam. 

You could ask in a separate thread for breeders around your area. This group does a good job recommending nice puppies for people.


----------



## outwest

roxy25 said:


> I agree it just make its it easier to just look it up. My only conclusion of breeders not wanting to post is A) they are too cheap to pay an extra fee or B) recieved bad results and does not want the people to see it.
> 
> Again this is my opinion lol
> 
> OFA is not the only health test out there so I can understand if a breeder used penn hip or something else. that of course will not be posted on OFA


Just to clarify: Penn hips are listed on the OFA site, you just ask them to list it. Preliminary results are also listed if the dog is at least 1 year old. My girls hip prelim is listed. Her sires Penn hip is listed. I did a hip prelim. while trying to decide whether to do the other testing or perhap spay her, it was $90.00 for the xray and mailing envelope at the vet and $15 to list (I submitted it with some of her breeders other xrays for a discount). The thyroid and SA were $7.50 each to list on OFA as an individual. cheap.


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