# What's the biggest, baddest dog pin out there?



## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Guys, Dude is still misbehaving and we're running out of ideas. He's chewed through a metal crate, chewed out of a chain-link fence and this morning in just 15 minutes when he was supposed to be out peeing, he chewed through a picket on the deck to try and get out.

My husband wants him gone because of his destruction and because now we don't only have to worry that he is tearing something up when were not home, but now we can't even let him out to pee without him causing problems.

All I can think of is that I need to find the strongest, most bad-ass pin /dog lot there is on the market and I am going to put it in my garage for when he is alone. We will just have to watch him when he goes out to potty, I guess.

He is so cool and I love him so much. Why does he have to do these things????? 

ETA: Oh, and by biggest I don't mean the most area, I mean the biggest, thickest, strongest materials that he cn't chew through.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it might be easier to address why he is so desperate to chew his way out... Have you thought of involving a really good, fully qualified behaviourist?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

no, haven't considered it and i KNOW my husband wouldn't so that's out. i did put a call in today to the carolina poodle rescue hoping they could give me some advice from first-hand experience, but they were too busy and are going to have to call me back.

his previous owners got rid of him because of this. they had 2.5 acres fenced, he had his own temperature-controlled building with two doggie doors, a couch, a doberman friend and free-fed himself and would STILL chew through their fence to get out.

they gave him away thinking the answer was that he needed to live indoors with people and that he wasn't getting enough attention. well, it has been exactly a year and it turns out all the attention in the world is not undoing this behavior.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Two things that spring to mind - is he neutered? And does he need more physical and mental exercise? It sounds as if you are having to change a pattern of behaviour that was reinforced over time at his previous home - he worked out how to get free, and had more fun on his own than he was having at home. It would be interesting to know just what supplied the fun - females? Hunting? Playing with children?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Oh Kukukachoo, I am so sorry. This is terrible news. I remember when you got Dude (I guess most of us do) and I loved your story of transforming him, and then adding Daisy to the mix... Everything seemed so right. 

I do hope that you can find a way to work through this. I think FJM is on to something. Maybe a combination of more exercise and figuring out what he wants to do when he escapes? Do Dude and Daisy play nicely together? I hope that you can find a solution.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

thanks for trying to help think through this with me. time is of the essence because my husband is DONE. we had him neutered when we adopted him last july, so for the first 5 years of his life he was intact and quite possibly females were the fun he was after.

dude isn't a playful dog. the two dogs don't play with each other- they just happily co-exist. daisy loves to fetch, but dude doesn't know how (even after we've tried enticing him and he's watched us play with daisy practically every day).

perhaps even more exercise could help, but even if he decides not to try and escape the yard, we still have to address the safety concerns when he is in the house. he counter surfs and eats everything- food or not. plus, during the last few weeks of summer storms, he has jumped the baby gate to get to our basement and has somehow managed not to injure himself because the other side of the gate is stairs! he must tumble down them after leaps the gate because i can't imagine how he could land gracefully after the big leap he would have to take. plus, they are spiral stairs at the top! i don't know how he does it exactly- we have just come home to find him on the opposite of the gate staring at us. one time, he actually knocked a big portrait off the wall and it fell down the steps as well and left shattered glass all the way down and put huge gashes in the sheetrock all the way down.

he really needs to be crated, but there are no typical crates that he can't chew through. that's the reason i'm willing to sacrifice one side of my garage for placing a heavy-duty pin to serve as a crate when we are gone.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

i went to tractor supply today and talked to a man there who had escape artist german shepherds at one time so he was very helpful- he got it. he said their typical 10x10 dog lot would not hold up to Dude based on the fact that he chewed through his previous home's fence (it was a plastic-coated chain-link fence).

he recommended i special order one from them that was much sturdier (but was also $550). before spending that, i would really love to find someone who can vouch for the durability and effectiveness of one first-hand with a crazy beast like Dude!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

And just so my babies don't come out looking all bad in this thread- here's three photos to remind everyone they really can be sweet and are loved and very much a part of our daily lives. That third photo is at my parents' pool. When we go over there we have to CHAIN the gate shut because Dude will go and flip the latch open to get out. We tried just barricading it with a big trash can but he pushed it out of the way and flipped the latch quicker than we could get him one time- so now its chained (because we tried tying it with his leash one time and he chomped right through it in just two or three bites!). Even when there are lots of people outside with him, petting him and interacting with him- if he has a down moment he will head straight to that gate to get out. Its nuts! He doesn't even have to be bored or lonely to have the desire to roam!


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

Obviously he needs to have a safe crate for when you're not at home so here are some ideas of what to look for. This is a Canadian store so I'm sure you could find something closer and cheaper: 
Kennels/Crates - Portable Dog Crates - K-9 Dynamics

and Leerburg which has lots of cool stuff, especially for working dogs. The good crates are expensive though they last forever. Leerburg Dog Training | Dog Crates

You might also try the Leerburg DVD section for help with your problem as a better crate is really only a bandaid and doesn't deal with the underlying issue. Your husband may be more amenable to help though DVDs.
http://leerburg.com/dvdbooks.htmhttp://leerburg.com/dvdbooks.htm

Good luck and don't give up just yet.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Thanks, Leah! Those crates cost the same as getting a big pin. Which do you think would be the better option?


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Maybe this could hold him: https://www.petedge.com/product/ProSelect-Empire-Color-Dog-Cages/57902.uts

I'm with the others that figuring out why he acts this way, and ending the behavior would be the most effective way to keep him safe, and happy! A dog determined enough can hurt himself in any crate, room, pen, or jumping over baby gates, as you're already seeing! Just one vet visit for broken teeth would cost you the same or more than one visit with a behaviorist. I think it'd actually be easier and more cost effective to call in a pro and see what they suggest! In the mean time, I do see how he needs to have a safe and secure place for lock down when he does have to be alone. Btw, how often is he on his own? Is there a way you could have him at daycare or have a pet sitter be with him when you're away until this behavior is resolved or less intense?

And I bet Dude can learn to fetch, and he'll probably love it! Here's a video about teaching a dog to fetch unusual things, but for a dog with little to no interest in fetching in the first place, every object is an unusual one! : P Have fun!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

I cant play the video on this mac but i will watch it later! thanks! the dogs are left alone for thirty minutes here, and hour there for errands and grocery shopping, etc. we have a nanny that comes and keeps my 3 year old on days when my husband and i work. the longest stretches they are ever left are 4-5 hours and i bet that only happens once or twice a week.

so in comparison to most dogs, they aren't left alone much at all!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

i appreciate everyone's help!


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

Is he distractive when you are with him? If not, you could be dealing with separation anxiety? 

If that is the case, the stronger/safer pen is only a part of the solution, since he will likely injure himself trying to get out of it. Since your family seems unwilling to consult someone that can help you modify that behavior with training, would you consider medical intervention. Medication can help manage the immediate issue and reduce the risk of him injuring himself with alone, while giving you a bit of reprieve to work on behavioral modification on your own.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I'm curious............where does he go and what does he do when he DOES get out?

I love Dude!!!!!! I hope it gets sorted out!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I know what it's like when you do everything and your dog goes above and beyond what's normal, not because you're not supplying his every need, but maybe he's just insatiably curious? Maybe he just knows he can and looks forward to the challenge. Maybe the stuff he gets into is reward enough to keep doing it, like counter surfing. But a couple of things I was wondering, could you spray the bars of his enclosure with bitter apple or something to make it unpleasant to chew (I was going to say pepper spray, but you have a 3 year old so that's out), or put a muzzle on him? A muzzle wouldn't stop him from jumping baby gates but could it stop him from chewing his crate or pen?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear that this is going on. My only thought is maybe more exercise. My heart breaks for you, I know you are doing your best and giving the Dude every chance for a happy life. He hit the lottery when you took him in. ((((hugs)))

I will ask my sister what she thinks, she gets paid to fix this kind of problem.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Oh *kukukachoo*, I am so sorry Dude is such a Houdini! I have wondered how you all are doing but this is not the update anyone wanted. I wish I knew of a solution, but I've got nothing. I wonder if you called a company that trains guard dogs if they might have a (humane) containment solution? Just a thought. I did a quick search for sturdy crates and came up with pretty much what you have. Hoping to hear a solution has been found, and fast!
What to do when you have an Escape Artist dog


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Advice from my sister:

She said to consider this a Life or Death issue for Dude. If you can't fix it, put him down. DO NOT PASS HIM TO SOMEONE ELSE THAT WILL NOT KEEP HIM EITHER.

Go to the vet get him some anxiety meds while you are doing the crate training (a few weeks). Get two crates, one for each dog and put them in a room that the family uses, family room , kitchen ect. If you have to move out a piece of furniture to do this, move it.

No food, nothing to chew unless they are both in the crates.

The crates are not for when you leave him. Put them in, while you are home for short amounts of time. Then let them out and repeat later, all day long.

I hope this can be fixed, so sorry.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> Advice from my sister:
> 
> She said to consider this a Life or Death issue for Dude. If you can't fix it, put him down. DO NOT PASS HIM TO SOMEONE ELSE THAT WILL NOT KEEP HIM EITHER.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to re-state how important that is - all feeding should be done in the crate, and he should be getting bullies and kongs stuffed with fantastic things (frozen to make them last longer), every time that he goes in the crate - dogs trained like this quickly begin to think that their crates are the best place in the world!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

My whole family is in tears this morning. We are stumped, defeated and heart-broken. Meanwhile, he is just laying sweetly with us oblivious to all that we are discussing. Thank you everyone. We are so confused.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Can anyone recommend a dog trainer in NC- anywhere from Greensboro to Chapel Hill to Durham areas?


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## Lea (Oct 20, 2012)

Perhaps you can call your local humane society and ask who they use for assessing and training dogs. They might be able to recommend someone. Obviously there's more than just wanting out of his pen. 

You perhaps need an animal behaviorist come to assess him. 

Don't wait, act now! Call around to dog trainers who deal with problems and issues. You will need a thorough assessment. Perhaps his anxiety has got the best of him and mess are what he needs as someone else suggested. 

We had a dog in the past with "issues". The more you invest into him now, the happier everyone with be! Good luck.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Dude is at least 27.5" at withers. 28" is as tall as I'm finding any crate to be. This is probably a stupid question, but shouldn't he be able to stand up comfortably in his crate without having to hang his head?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you need a behaviourist, rather than a trainer - and one who is properly qualified and not just "always lived with dogs" or "feels the energy". I applaud your determination to sort things out for Dude - I hope that you find the right person, and that they come up with a programme that works for your family and your dogs.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> Can anyone recommend a dog trainer in NC- anywhere from Greensboro to Chapel Hill to Durham areas?


Maybe reach out to these folks for a recommendation for an animal behavorist? (North Carolina University School of Veterinary Medicine)
Animal Behavior Service - Clinicians :: Veterinary Health Complex :: North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine

Clinicians
Barbara Sherman
About Dr. Barbara L. Sherman

Dr. Barbara L. Sherman is a licensed veterinarian and specialist in the field of veterinary behavior. She is a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (since 1995) and is certified by the Animal Behavior Society as an Applied Animal Behaviorist (since 1993). She earned her DVM degree from The Ohio State University College of Veterinary Medicine and her PhD, with specialization in Animal Behavior, from The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

Currently, Dr. Sherman is Clinical Associate Professor in the Department of Clinical Sciences at the North Carolina State University College of Veterinary Medicine in Raleigh, NC, and is affiliated with the Animal Welfare Ethics and Public Policy Program. She serves as Director of the Behavioral Medicine Service of the NCSU Veterinary Health Complex and as immediate Past-President of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists (ACVB). In addition to these roles, Dr. Sherman conducts clinical studies, writes articles and book chapters, and lectures widely about topics related to companion animal behavior.

Margaret Gruen
About Dr. Margaret Gruen

Dr. Margaret Gruen is a specialist in the field of veterinary behavior. She serves as a faculty member in the Department of Clinical Sciences and the Program in Animal Welfare, Ethics, and Public Policy at the NCSU College of Veterinary Medicine (CVM). In addition to her role at the Behavioral Medicine Service, Dr. Gruen is actively engaged in developing behavior services and training veterinary students at the Wake County Animal Care, Control, and Adoption Center.

Dr. Gruen is a graduate of the University of Illinois College of Veterinary Medicine. She completed an internship in animal welfare and a residency in clinical behavior at NCSU-CVM and earned a Master's degree in Veterinary Public Health at NCSU, with focus on population studies of animal shelters. Dr. Gruen is board-certified by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. Her interests include clinical animal behavior, animal welfare, shelter issues, and cognition in cats.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

kukukachoo said:


> Can anyone recommend a dog trainer in NC- anywhere from Greensboro to Chapel Hill to Durham areas?


Elite Canine in Winston-Salem
Carolina Dog Training in Gboro
Teamworks in Raleigh(maybe too far?)

Edit- I don't know anything about Dude, but is this behavior a constant? Or has it gotten worse recently? Another thing to look into would be medical reasons(if it isn't sudden/gotten worse recently-ish)- things like a thyroid panel or even blood-brain things. 

But yes, things like Prozac can be a miracle when you are trying to work and train thru his issues. I would have strangled my granddad's rat terrier without it.


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## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*2012 Post*

Here is a thread that you started 12-2012:




kukukachoo said:


> About 3 weeks after we got Dude, he accidentally confined himself in a bathroom while we were gone and chewed a hole through the door.  if I'm going to try an confine them, it will have to be a heavy duty crate for big man, that's for sure!
> 
> I might even have to go so far as a small dot lot/kennel in the garage if I can't get this under control.
> 
> ...


Please---Listen to Carley's Sister: Find a place in a common "fun" and "active" room and crate these dogs! You are wonderful to Dude! He needs your help and consistency:

1. Put two (2) crates (side-by-side) in a common area, where there are people.
2. Put the two (2) dogs in the crate ALWAYS when you feed them or treat them or give them Kongs or Bully Sticks. Consistency pays off!
3. Train ALL family members. This is a short-term situation and will give you tremendous rewards. Be strong! 

HerdingStdPoodle


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

The goal is to get him used to the crate so that he isn't trying to get out. Put them in the family room, put them in it and get them used to it so that it is not a punishment. He will learn to just lay down and know that YOU will let him out in just a few mins. The mins will slowly turn into a few hours. I truly believe this will work if you will only try it.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

HerdingStdPoodle said:


> Here is a thread that you started 12-2012:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree! The issue is that a typical crate won't confine him. Hence, the initial question asked at the beginning of this thread. I need something much stronger than any typical crate or it won't be effective and it will be dangerous for him. I went to Tractor Supply to look at their crates and their dog lot options and the guy there had dealt with German Shepherds like Dude and he said that none of their crates, nor any of their in-stock dog lots would hold him. The metal is simply not thick enough. He needs something much, much sturdier based on the fact that he chews *though* chain- link fences.

Its hard for us to find money in our tight budget for a purchase of a $500-$700 crate, especially when we don't know for sure that he won't just destroy it, too. I have been in contact with his previous owner and exchanged a few emails with her last night. I told her we were considering re-homing and giving her the option of taking him back. She said they couldn't and that they tried crating and reinforcing their fence and every type of confinement they possibly could, too. 

I'm waiting on a call back from Carolina Poodle Rescue but instead of just calling for advice, I am going to ask for them to help me re-home. As much as I adore him and would love to work through this with him, there comes a point when I have to admit that I don't have the time or resources to help him any more than I have already tried. You guys have seen all I have done for this guy and how much he is a huge part of our lives- its not an easy decision to make.

I've tolerated the destruction until now, but this throwing himself down the basement steps *just* to get on the the other side of a gate has taken it to a whole new level. We had just used our basement for storage up until a month ago when we cleaned it out and decorated it. So, I guess he never paid those steps any attention since we didn't use them much and since he had never been down there. Now that he knows they lead somewhere, he is seeing that gate as confinement and insists on overcoming it (only to turn right back around and want back on the other side). Its bizarre. He just has this drive that makes him need to get over, under, or through anything in his way- then he's fine. Even if he's not alone and even if he is in a huge area already- he wants on the other side. Nuts isn't it?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> The goal is to get him used to the crate so that he isn't trying to get out. Put them in the family room, put them in it and get them used to it so that it is not a punishment. He will learn to just lay down and know that YOU will let him out in just a few mins. The mins will slowly turn into a few hours. I truly believe this will work if you will only try it.


I don't have time to slowly introduce it though. Thats another issue. I need a solution NOW. He's throwing himself down basement steps every time we leave. There are too many dangerous things down there for them to get into for us to leave the gate open.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Also, we don't have room in our house for two crates in any room except the basement (which is now finished and a playroom for the kids, but we're not down there a lot). Our house is 3 bedrooms and then one room for the den and kitchen separated by a fireplace. We don't have much living space as it is. We have one open area in front of the fireplace that is the only spot the kids have to play- that's it.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

would it be considered cruel to medicate him for a few weeks when we do need to crate him when we leave but still work on getting him used to is slowly while we are at home? does that make sense? 

also, if we put the crates in the den while we are acclimating them to it, would it be OK to then later move them to the basement?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> would it be considered cruel to medicate him for a few weeks when we do need to crate him when we leave but still work on getting him used to is slowly while we are at home? does that make sense?


No one who's witnessed your care of Dude could possibly mistake how deeply you care for him and how much your family loves him! It would IMO be a kindness to him to enlist your vet's help in keeping him safe while he's with you, and if that involves medication then thank goodness it's available. Really feel for the situation you and your family are in. I know you want the best for Dude, and I know you'll see to it. 

Behavioral Problems of Dogs: Normal Social Behavior and Behavioral Problems of Domestic Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual
If the problem is determined to be an abnormal behavior or a management issue that is refractory to training, resolution will require a combination of behavior modification techniques, modifications to the environment to prevent further problems, and the use of behavior management products and medications (see Behavioral Medicine Introduction: Treatment of Behavioral Problems).


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Far from being cruel, if he is suffering from severe separation anxiety I think a vet prescription is probably essential.

This dog's problems were extreme, but the article shows how even the professionals can struggle when faced with separation anxiety: Living With Dogs Who Suffer From Severe Separation Anxiety - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Aubrey said:


> Elite Canine in Winston-Salem
> Carolina Dog Training in Gboro
> Teamworks in Raleigh(maybe too far?)
> 
> ...


hi- i meant to answer you sooner, sorry. i think i've explained in the last few posts how some of the behavior has escalated (with him realizing the basement exists). We did have thyroid checked and had some other things evaluated in a blood panel about 3 or 4 months ago just because he was getting some skin issues. it all came back great. i'm not sure about blood-brain things, though. what does that mean exactly?


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> Also, we don't have room in our house for two crates in any room except the basement (which is now finished and a playroom for the kids, but we're not down there a lot). Our house is 3 bedrooms and then one room for the den and kitchen separated by a fireplace. We don't have much living space as it is. We have one open area in front of the fireplace that is the only spot the kids have to play- that's it.


Our house is a 2/1, 660 sq ft, so we have also had to be creative with space. One thing we have done in the past is essentially use the crates as end tables next to the couch (they actually sell crates for this purpose but they will likely not hold up to him just yet). No the best decorating, but it might work in the interim. 

Because our current spoo is on the smaller size and we are down to one dog, we were able to put our bed on risers and her crate just barely fits under it - which is awesome and she loves sleeping under our bed.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

fjm said:


> Far from being cruel, if he is suffering from severe separation anxiety I think a vet prescription is probably essential.
> 
> This dog's problems were extreme, but the article shows how even the professionals can struggle when faced with separation anxiety: Living With Dogs Who Suffer From Severe Separation Anxiety - Whole Dog Journal Article


oh my gosh- that article makes me feel panicky. i mean, i appreciate reading it and knowing i'm not alone, but it worries me that i really can't help him. i don't have a way to have frequent dog-sitters and change our lives to only go places animals can go. while we aren't often gone for long stretches of time, i do have to take kids to gymnastics, soccer, go grocery shopping, volunteer at kids school, etc.. i hope that's not the only answer to this. with having two kids, i just don't have the option of changing my lifestyle to ensure he is never alone.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Wicked grin have you thought of cow panels or combo panels? They may not be high enough to keep him in without one being used as a lid but they could be a good starting point. We use two of them as our garden fence and they are plenty sturdy. Even the section we cut off was going to be use as a gate but got turned into a trellis for beans...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the dog in that article was a very extreme case - if you look at what he had been through, it rather explains his behaviour. Have you bottomed out whether Dude's behaviour is anxiety and desperately needing to be with his family, or taking advantage of being on his own to try to get out for an interesting wander? Dies he try to escape if there is anyone in the house, for example, or become distressed if he is left in a room alone for a few minutes? I do wonder if he got into the habit of roaming looking for mates in his farm days, and that behaviour has continued with you despite him being neutered. Does he show signs of anxiety when left - panting, drooling, even diarrhoea and emptying his anal glands - or is he more like a teenager left with the run of the house and the drinks cabinet, and throwing a wild party?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I know you are trying and love your dogs! You can get this fixed, I know you can. Is there no where to put the crates by removing a piece of furniture? It doesn't have to be forever, just until this is resolved. I would get the meds and you have already said that most of the time the dogs are not alone, so someone is there to start the training. If he starts trying to get out, tell him No, he doesn't get that correction when he is alone. I am sure he knows what no means . That is why you have to do this when you are home. Make if a fun place to be with lots of chewing things, treats in kongs ect. Correct him if he starts to try to escape and only leave him in a few mins at a time to start with. Just continue to repeat and lengthen the time as he gets used to it. If he is on meds he will be more mellow.

P.S. Just wondering what type of home you think would work for him if you are going to re-home him?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

I have no idea what would work for him- somewhere that at least one person is home 24/7 ? a commune? haha- i dont know which is why I would go through a rescue with experience versus trying to rehome him myself. 

Will answer others questions later...thank you all!


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> I have no idea what would work for him- somewhere that at least one person is home 24/7 ? a commune? haha- i dont know which is why I would go through a rescue with experience versus trying to rehome him myself.
> 
> Will answer others questions later...thank you all!


From what you described there is likely no better home for him then where he is now. 

It is unreasonable to expect that a dog can never be left without direct human supervision. Even someone that is housebound/works from home/ is home "all the time" cannot really be there 24-7. Things happen, people need to go to the grocery store or bank or doctors and need to be able to leave the dog for an hour or two. It sounds like is he already supervised "most" of the time, and I truly don't believe an "all the time" situation exists.

I hope you can work through this, but if it is not correctable and you cannot live with it, the likely solution is euthanasia, because as others have pointed out it's not really fair to him to keep kicking him down the road. Oddly enough, these situation are often temporary "better" for a few weeks when a dog is rehomed and is still insecure in a new place (the honeymoon period), but that would mean keeping him constantly bouncing around and feeling displaced...


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

yes, i was joking. i imagine he needs a place where someone has the financial means for long-term behaviorist intervention, continual replacement and repair of damages and where everyone in the household is dedicated to his rehabilitation versus a husband, like mine, who has said he is going to take him to the pound.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

A rescue is the easy way out. 

Kuku, you know I have always been a big fan of you and Dude. I understand if you can't take another day of this. I would not have put up with him damaging my home, or himself, for even a short amount of time. I would have been on this from the start . I am not judging you, but do the kind thing for Dude, help him learn to be in his crate or put him down.

So sorry.

P.S. He is over sized, has this huge problem, getting older ect. Most likely he would not be able to find another home soon or ever. I would not want him living the rest of his days in a kennel.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> A rescue is the easy way out.
> 
> Kuku, you know I have always been a big fan of you and Dude. I understand if you can't take another day of this. I would not have put up with him damaging my home, or himself, for even a short amount of time. I would have been on this from the start . I am not judging you, but do the kind thing for Dude, help him learn to be in his crate or put him down.
> 
> So sorry.


you see, i kept thinking i had adapted the environment enough to protect him. we would go for weeks and sometimes months without an "episode" and then BAM- start over again. i truly thought i was doing what was best. i mean, it seems so counterintuitive to take a dog who cannot stand confinement and crate him. that's why i kept thinking for sure, we could adapt the environment to suit him. i admit it, i failed.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

You have not failed until you give up. When one thing does not work, you try something else. I have never heard of a dog that could not be trained. I have learned that it is the people that can't always be trained. KuKu, you can do this! Fight for Dude and just do it.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> You have not failed until you give up. When one thing does not work, you try something else. I have never heard of a dog that could not be trained. I have learned that it is the people that can't always be trained. KuKu, you can do this! Fight for Dude and just do it.


Carley's Mom: I agree with a lot of what you say. But I do not think that Kuku or her husband should feel obligated to live with a dog that is destructive. There comes a point where you have to say no. It is up to Kuku and her husband to decide when that is and how much of their resourses--money, time, energy--they want to spend on Dude.

I like the suggestion of getting a consultation with a behaviorist to help define what if anything can be done in Dude's current home and whether Dude might do well in another home. 

BTW, I have definitely heard of dogs that cannot be trained. One person that I know adopted an adult spoo that turned out to have aggression issues, apparently caused by abuse at his former home. At one point he lunged at a small child and would have bitten her if he had not been restrained by the leash. The new owners hired a behaviorist who outlined a behavior modification plan that they said would take at least a year to implement and have a 50% chance of success. The new owner thought about the child that almost got bitten and decided to have the dog euthanized--a choice that the behaviorist thought was a responsible choice. Another person I know was told by a behaviorist that the only solution to dog-dog aggression between her two dogs was to get rid of one of them or keep them separate. The behaviorist had a long explanation for the reason for the aggression, but did not think that the dogs could be trained to react to each other differently.

Still hoping for a better solution for Dude. This is such a difficult thing to have to deal with. All best wishes to Kukukachoo and her human and canine family.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

peppersb said:


> I do not think that Kuku or her husband should feel obligated to live with a dog that is destructive. There comes a point where you have to say no. It is up to Kuku and her husband to decide when that is and how much of their resourses--money, time, energy--they want to spend on Dude....
> 
> I like the suggestion of getting a consultation with a behaviorist to help define what if anything can be done in Dude's current home and whether Dude might do well in another home....
> 
> ...


*peppersb*: It's like you're inside my head! :highfive2:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree 100%. I would not live with a dog that was tearing down the house either. I would try the crate training before I gave him to a rescue though. I am sure there are dogs that can't be trained that are fearful and been abused, have health problems ect. But this does not seem to be the case with Dude. I have followed Kuku's threads and I know she is doing her best. I just wish she would give it a try, before she lets him go to a rescue. He has such a great home, it is just so sad to me to see it end this way. I am not judging anyone here. I have not walked in her shoes. I believe this can be fixed, but I most certainly could be wrong. Just hoping for a happy ending, that's all.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

A bit off topic...*
Carley's Mom,* *peppersb*: I know we're among those truly pained by *kukukachoo*'s situation. It's haunting me like crazy, I cannot imagine her angst! Maybe her vet will be able to remedy things at least short-term with the use of behavior modification drugs until a permanent solution is found. Anyway, I hope there's some comfort for her in knowing others care. It's awful to feel helpless, even worse to feel hopeless. Hanging onto hope Dude will live out his life safely and happily, wherever it may be.
:focus:


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## HerdingStdPoodle (Oct 17, 2012)

*Kennel Solution*

If I had a large, durable kennel---I would ship it to you. Do rescue groups or vet offices or K9 Trainers have durable kennels that they would loan or rent? How about Ebay or garage sales? Just brainstorming....:thinking: HerdingStdPoodle


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi! Thanks again everyone. I cannot even begin to tell you all how much your support means. Aside from my lovely neighbor who owns six Greyhounds and therefore totally "gets" why I'm not willing to just give up, you all are the only other people in my life like that. 

My parents, my sister, and other friends are all in the "to the pound" camp. My husband likes to talk like he is, but seeing that the dogs are still there and he brought home two giant bags of TOTW yesterday, he obviously hasn't reached that point- yet.

So, for an update:

I have been all over the place seeking advice; forums, vets, rescues you name it. In my search I came across an angel. Someone has offered to pay the $495 fee to be seen by an animal behaviorist at the NCSU School of Veterinary Science! :angel: Isn't that fabulous?!?!

I called to schedule an appointment and, unfortunately, the first available is not until mid-August. Obviously, that doesn't address my immediate need for a safe solution in the short-term. Sooooo, I called my vet and have an appointment Thursday morning at 9:00 with them. I am going to ask for a prescription to chill Dude out a bit while I introduce him to the crate. This is the only thing I can think of to deal with the immediate threat of harm and further destruction of our home.

I have a suitable crate for Daisy already, however, I am still in need of one for Dude. The Poodle Rescue suggested the same one that someone else in this thread did (on PetEdge.com). With shipping, however, it ends up being $500. I haven't discussed this purchase yet with my husband because Dude's previous owner and my Greyhound neighbor are both on the search for me to find one used. Of course, all of us logical thinkers rationalize that an upfront $500 purchase could save us in the long-run by eliminating more damages. But, dear hubby isn't as rational as we ladies are and it goes back to the - at what point will he say its "pound time."

*Sidenote: I hate to make him out as heartless- let me know remind you he was the one who came home from meeting Daisy and started preparing the house for her while I was still reluctant because we didn't know what issues she would have adjusting from outdoor kennel-life to being an indoors dog.

Oh, and speaking of Daisy. We came home last night from going out to eat and BOTH dogs were on the other side of the gate at the stairs and there were NO storms last night. So, now the behavior that began from Dude getting scared during a storm and jumping the fence has turned into both of them doing it- just because. :afraid: I'm so scared for them!

I've been trying to wear them out the last two days and taking them for walks as often as i can. Even if its just a quick lap around the cul-de-sac and back again. Typically we only do one a day but I'm hoping that just letting them get out of the house more frequently will help.

We shall see.....I appreciate anyone and everyone. If you guys think of good confinement ideas for the big man, please let me know.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

You're awesome,* kukukachoo*! And your dh is a good guy too, for sure! So glad you're pursuing the behaviorist at NCSU, delighted to hear someone's stepped up to help with that. The crate situation will likely work out too. So many folks rooting for your family and Dude! I look forward to hearing what the vet recommends. Hang in there and thanks a million for the update!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Ooops, correction.... the first available appt. at NCSU isn't until mid _September_- not mid-August so you see why I need a solution now.

September 5th was the date they offered me, but I didn't take it because it was so far off- I decided to try my vet first.

She said if I waited and called back within a couple of weeks, it would probably just push me out until mid-September. 

(*Just my dumb-luck, one of the doctors is out of town the whole month of July which is why they are having to schedule so far out right now.)


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*kukukachoo*: It's good you're trying all you can, I know the situation is urgent and understand your thinking. Maybe your vet will have other ideas (know of a behaviorist who might be available sooner, perhaps?) to help you. Keep on keeping on, best as you can! :clover:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have not read the entire thread, so do not know if anyone has mentioned Rescue Remedy drops? Our male Whippet spent four months in his early life as one of fifteen other dogs. He never had a chance to shine and did not get a lot of attention. He came back to me after four months a complete neurotic basket case. He is terrified of storms, not just thunder, but even rain- because God knows...where there is rain there MIGHT be thunder. He is terrified of loud, sharp noises and even of helicopters flying overhead. He has chewed door trim in three rooms when he feels he is threatened by any of these sounds. He tried to chew his way out of a metal crate, snapping off a front upper tooth right at the gumline, and broke the top 1/3 of a lower canine at the same time. We have tried everything including CD's made for anxious dogs. We have found that sometimes the Rescue Remedy helps. But our best solution came when he wandered down to our basement during a storm and we have discovered he is much better-period-about dealing with his anxieties in the windowless storage room behind our rec room. There is a huge open crate with a dog bed and toys, we close the door, turn on the light and blast the radio. He cannot hear the scary sounds or see the flashes and settles right down in there. As long as there are, in his opinion, no threats, he is a sweet, loving, normal boy, but when anything frightens him, he glazes over and hears nothing other than the threat, pants, drools, paces and freaks out. It has gotten to where he has now made his Mother somewhat anxious, so she now goes down and hangs out with him when the need arises. I do not know if you might have a "safe haven" like that for your problem child...Wiz now goes to the gate in our kitchen and nudges it, and that is our cue...he senses imminent danger and is asking to go to his hidey hole. We are all much happier now.


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## Aubrey (May 18, 2013)

Someone mentioned cattle panels(also called feedlot panels) earlier- I would look into them and make a type of run in the garage. They are heavy gauge metal and fairly rigid. They come in 16' lengths, the height and hole spacing depends on style.
Tractor Supply Online Store - Enjoy browsing:Feedlot Panels 
You could easily make a cube(I wouldn't leave him with an open top or bottom) by cutting the wires and connecting them with metal clips(like leash clips or carabeener-style). 

Here is a good site with ideas for outside ideas(though they would work inside as well!)- Fencing Solutions

What I meant earlier by blood-brain was things like tumors, neurological imbalances, etc.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have not read the entire thread,


Nor have I. What I skimmed through does seem like good advice. My only suggestion is that a walk for a dog is really not great exercise. Unless you hare hiking and they are off leash.

If The Dude likes to retrieve balls, he will get a lot more exercise throwing the ball for him. 

I am embarrassed to admit this..but another "game' I have played, in the past, with my poodles is hide n seek.

The Poodles would sit and stay with my Husband. And I would go hide in the house (closet, shower, furnace room etc. etc). When I was hidden my Husband would say "Find Mommy" and they would be off trying to find me. They were very methodical searchers. I found this not only exercised their brains but they got cardiovascular exercise from running here and there to find me.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

I would still KEEP the appointment with NCSU in September...remember you can always cancel it down the road if required - but you will not get a sooner appointment if you decide to go there...

In the meantime I think it sounds more like separation anxiety - severe... I am not a vet so don't take my word on it. I would first try to get him a some prescription medication to help curb whatever state of mind he is in when he decides to play houdini... and if the vet says "oh we will start with a low dose..." put your foot down and demand a higher dose that is at least weight/age appropiate" It doesnt sound like you have months to find the right "cocktail" of medication so to speak...

Next step is get him on the script for 1 week (to allow the medication to work on his system and take full effect) - then have a behaviourist/trainer come out. You should be contacting a trainer etc NOW based on what happened with NCSU. 

I found one located near you - her credentials look really good. Here is a snapshot of her credentials - the page has a laundry list of everything else she is affiliated with:
EDUCATION: 
Duke University, B.S., Psychology (Animal Behavior), 1989
Honors Thesis: Spacing Behavior of Juvenile Lemur Catta

American Institute for Animal Science, Canine Behavior Counselor Program, 2002
Animal Learning Processes & *Behavior Analysis 
Behavior Modification and Treatment *
Companion Animal Business Practices and Ethics
Dog Training and Instructor Skills Development
*Applied Behavior Modification and Family Counseling*

AFFILIATION
Association of Companion Animal Behavior Counselors
Association of Pet Dog Trainers

Pet Behavior Help Home

Hang in there - you have a whole lot of support from your computer!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

That contact info is VERY promising. I am VERY close to them and like their credentials as well! I'm going to call in about an hour when I leave work!

THANK YOU!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

kukukachoo said:


> I've been trying to wear them out the last two days and taking them for walks as often as i can. Even if its just a quick lap around the cul-de-sac and back again. Typically we only do one a day but I'm hoping that just letting them get out of the house more frequently will help.


This comment made me wonder if perhaps there might be hope for Dude in another home. Maybe a home with an owner that gave him A LOT more exercise? In another thread, I recently spoke about a very high energy poodle that I know who was not getting the exercise he needed in his first home. As a result, he became destructive and increasingly needed to be confined. Fortunately, a new home was found for him with an owner that gave his dogs 2-3 hours of vigorous exercise a day, including quite a bit of off leash time walking through the woods and streams and chasing ground hogs and/or tennis balls (he never caught the ground hogs, but he certainly tried!). With this amount of exercise, the spoo who was so destructive was transformed into a fabulous and interesting companion. He is quite a character! His new owner adores him. Unfortunately, most pet owners do not want to spend 2-3 hours a day exercising their dogs. But I wonder if such a home could be found, and if it might work for Dude??? Just a thought. Wishing you and Dude the very best.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Giving him plenty of exercise is a must. I only have toypoos but there is a noticeable difference when my babies don't get their daily walk. Dai won't let me sleep through the night and Libby gets downcast. I think that is a fruitful avenue to explore. Best wishes to you all! I hope you find a solution!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

just to clarify, i meant we only do one _substantial_ walk a day but i've been adding more trips out even if they're quick just to break up the monotony for them. they frequently get to go hiking with us, they run beside us and the kids when we ride bikes, the kids play fetch with daisy all the time but dude's not interested. they also like to set up obstacle courses for daisy- she loves to jump and climb. sometimes dude will partake, but he'd rather watch! he hates water, tried to get him to swim a few times and wants OUT. so the daily long walk is the only constant- the other exercise where they end up painting and such is just sporadic.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

they also never sit still inside.... my husband calls it the "Tiffany Train" because they follow me at my heels ev-er-y-where! (i realize that's not true excercise, but just wanted to through in that funny anecdote.)


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Well I guess I was just grasping at straws. Sounds like it is very unlikely that there is a better home for Dude anywhere. Still hoping that someone will have some brilliant idea that gives Dude a good future.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

I agree with peppersb. I hope you find something to help him stay with you.

Sounds like you give him a lot of exercise. What do you feed him? I'm curious because I'm thinking kids can be rambunctious is you give them too much sugary stuff. So maybe it is the same with dog.

Dude is handsome though. He is truly live up to his name. Is it possible he resent having Daisy around and bored because all the play event is Daisy-oriented? 

Charlie (12-14 lbs) is my energizer toy poodle mix. One hour walk is not enough, he want to play fetch and tug on daily/hourly basis. So I've been taking him hiking every day now to poop him out. Trust me, he pooped me out long before he pooped himself out.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't think there is anyone out there that would not agree that Dude hit the lottery with you and YOUR HUSBAND. I hope you find a great deal on a crate... sending the voodoo your way. Please let this work. I love the dude!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

For a crate - someone did post this in here previously... but I would order one of these... yes expensive but it cannot be referred to the "Alcatraz of pet cages" for nothing... size wise you may be able to get away with a medium:

Medium measures 37"L x 25 1/4"W x 33 3/4"H
Large measures 42 1/4"L x 30 3/4"W x 41 1/4"H

ProSelect Empire Color Dog Cages | PetEdge.com

I'd look into it as it seems pretty much indestructible. It is also a PE brand crate. You can try calling PE and see if they warranty it at all if by chance Dude gets out of it...which I don't think that he will be able to...

BTW LOVE LOVE LOVE the name Dude!!!!! I have called of my spoo's dude regardless of what their name is. My current spoo; Polo; has been called dude several times!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Joelly said:


> I agree with peppersb. I hope you find something to help him stay with you.
> 
> Sounds like you give him a lot of exercise. What do you feed him? I'm curious because I'm thinking kids can be rambunctious is you give them too much sugary stuff. So maybe it is the same with dog.
> 
> ...


We feed TOTW and we have some treats that they get a few of most days but not all. No table scraps or people food ever.

I wish I had the lifestyle that would afford me time to exercise them more than once a day, but that's all we can do. We both work full-time (I do some from home, though), I'm PTO president which requires a lot of administrative work from home as well as volunteer time at the school & our nanny is elderly and disabled so she can't handle them for walks. We just really don't have more time to invest in more exercise.... too many other responsibilities.

Dude's behavior existed long before Daisy came along- it began at his first home so I'm certain there is no jealousy or resentment there.

I haven't had luck on craigslist or ebay so I'm going to talk to my husband about buying a crate after I go to the vet appointment on Thursday.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Keep us posted with the vet appointment that you have scheduled!!! We are all rooting for you! Hopefully dude can be put on something to mellow him out enought to work through the issues. Have you had any luck with the trainer and talking with them?

Looking forward to hear updates on your family & Dude - fingers are crossed that his issues can be worked through!!!!:fingers-crossed:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Let's start a fund for Dude's new crate! I will start with $50. Kuku, if you are okay with this, send me your address in a p.m.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> Let's start a fund for Dude's new crate! I will start with $50. Kuku, if you are okay with this, send me your address in a p.m.


Great idea. I'm in for $50 -- if the crate is the way Kuku and family want to proceed.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

You guys! I could cry... In fact I am all teary and goosebumpy! I promise I never intended for this to be a cry for money. I am so touched by this amazing group. 

I will let you know how our appointment goes tomorrow and what the trainer says when I hear back!

HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY, MY POODLE PALS! <3


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> Let's start a fund for Dude's new crate! I will start with $50. Kuku, if you are okay with this, send me your address in a p.m.


Me too! $$


kukukachoo said:


> You guys! I could cry... In fact I am all teary and goosebumpy! I promise I never intended for this to be a cry for money.


NO ONE would think any such thing! We are a pack, _All for one and one for all!_:grouphug:


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

peppersb said:


> Great idea. I'm in for $50 -- if the crate is the way Kuku and family want to proceed.


I'm in as well - keep us posted:thumb:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So glad to see everyone is on board. I got a pm from Hearding Poodles asking me if I thought we could raise the $$ for the crate and who should we ask about doing it? I had already been thinking the same thing, so I just put it out there! I want Dude to stay in his loving , happy home and if my $50 will help that happen, don't know of another way to spend it, that could give me as much joy. Thanks everyone! I love this forum and GO DUDE!


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Rooting for you Kuku and am very much hoping that somehow you will be able to find something that works.

I too am a having financial difficulties so I really can't offer as much as everyone else, but I know sometimes even tiny bits can help so I think I could donate $10. How is everyone doing the donations? EMT? Paypal?

Rebecca


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Every bit helps! How are we doing it???? I guess kuku will let us know. Thanks everyone.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

$10 from this corner too - just send me an address. It all adds up.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

ME TOO ME TOO ME TOOO!!!!! $25.00 Here!
Just tell me where to send it!!!!!


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## plr (Oct 20, 2012)

$25 here too


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

WOW! am i ever feeling the love!!!! let me go to the appt. in the morning before i accept any of your gracious donations. it is at 9:00 and then i have my own dr.appt at 10:45. i'll try and update from my phone as soon as i can, but if its after lunch time before you hear from me- thats why!

still havent gotten a return call from the chapel hill trainer. still hopeful, though.

thank you again. i so appreciate you guys. i cant wait to tell my hubby about this! he's got a mob of poodle-crazy women he will be letting down if he doesnt go for this plan! LOL!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

25$ here.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Dude, Daisy and I thank you all from the bottom of our hearts for helping to keep them together! :flowers:


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

kukukachoo said:


> i cant wait to tell my hubby about this! he's got a mob of poodle-crazy women he will be letting down if he doesnt go for this plan! LOL!


Well before we all get completely swept away, I for one want to say that while I am more than willing to help pay for the crate, I completely respect your right (and your husband's right) to make whatever decision you think is best for your family. No one should have to live with persistent, long-term dog problems IMO. 

You are the one that is living with Dude, not us. You love him more than anyone, and you also know the issues better than anyone. I am very impressed with the way you are seeking solutions and I certainly hope that you will find solutions that enable you and your family to enjoy living with Dude for many years to come. I will support whatever decision you and your husband make. (Except I would not support dumping him at the pound--poodle rescue or even euthanasia is better than the pound in my opinion.) Anyway, I am hoping for much better things for Dude and for your family and I am very happy to be a part of that if getting a crate is what you want to do. I love the way this forum is so willing to help, and I am very impressed with the hard work you are doing to find a good solution.

PS. That photo of Dude and Daisy on the same dog bed makes me think THERE HAS TO BE A SOLUTION!!! I am hoping and praying for good things for Dude and your family.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Pepper is a real nice lady... Me, I will hunt that man down and neuter him. LOL Just kidding, I know you both will try to do what is best for your family and Dude.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

so, with shipping that awesome, blue crate is $485. deducting all of your contributions would bring it down to right at $200 which is pretty much in the same price range of more typical crates so i think that will be much, much, much eaiser to swallow. WE GOT THIS!  i'm so happy! i've never been the recipient of such generosity. what a feeling!

i have sent $200 two years in a row to a family i met on a parenting forum to buy their kids christmas presents. i suppose i was paying it forward and it has come back to me


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> Pepper is a real nice lady... Me, I will hunt that man down and neuter him. LOL Just kiddingQUOTE]
> 
> literally LMFAO:laugh:
> 
> Regardless of what decisions are made - we are ALL here to SUPPORT YOU, DH & Dude!!!!!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

lol- i know! carley's mom doesn't play ! lol!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I just read through the entire thread, I am so sorry this is happening! You have such dedication to help, halfway through I was actually thinking about suggesting a fund for you. Do you have a Paypal? It would be easier for a lot of people to send money that way, and you can even set up a donation page through paypal, as I bet even lurkers that haven't signed up for the forum may want to help your cause. (I will!)


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> Pepper is a real nice lady... Me, I will hunt that man down and neuter him. LOL Just kidding, I know you both will try to do what is best for your family and Dude.


Carley's Mom -- You are really really really funny. And you were asking for Kuku's address so that you could ... send a check??? LOL


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> so, with shipping that awesome, blue crate is $485. deducting all of your contributions would bring it down to right at $200 which is pretty much in the same price range of more typical crates so i think that will be much, much, much eaiser to swallow. WE GOT THIS!  i'm so happy! i've never been the recipient of such generosity. what a feeling!
> 
> i have sent $200 two years in a row to a family i met on a parenting forum to buy their kids christmas presents. i suppose i was paying it forward and it has come back to me


No good deed goes unnoticed... 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

It is great to help too, even in a tiny way. Just tell us how to do it. Carley's Mom can fw me her check to send on so you don't have to give her your address. : )


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

hi! i do have a paypal so if everyone else does as well, that would be the easiest way. i don't mind pming folks my mailing address if i need too, though. first, ii want to make sure i talk to the vet so there are no surpises or unaswered questions when i talk to my husband and then (hopefully!) accept your donations. thank you, thank you, thank you!


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Assuming this does all work out, please don't feel you need to keep thanking us. I don't think anyone wants you to feel a debt of gratitude weighing on you. We are doing it for Dude and he can thank us by allowing you to post cute pictures of him from time to time. : ) He can just enjoy his Alcatraz (ha!) and forget all about how he got it, and so should you. 

Being the object of charity is no fun. This is not charity, it is just another day at the Poodle Forum. : )


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## just june (Oct 3, 2012)

$25.00 for Duke


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Kuku - cannot wait to hear how Dude makes out tomorrow!!!! I know I know you said an update may be made late on what happens with Sir Vet - but Dude's "other family" aka everyone on this board I am sure is anxiously awaiting!!!! paws crossed❤


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## peepers (Apr 13, 2012)

*Alcatraz*

Pierre and family would love to help! PayPal info please.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

im soooo loving all the encouragement! and did someone say pictures?

my desktop computer has been out of order and i'm not too savvy on my new work laptop yet (which is a mac) so i haven't been posting as many lately.

here's one from my cell phone. its a good example of his size in comparison to 55-60 pound daisy!

traveling with dogs and kids and all of the related paraphernalia presents a challenge with dog restraint options so please forgive me there. the doozys ride with us as often as possible, though. if its possible to take them somewhere- they go! 

they've been missing their school-morning routine this summer. they ride with me every morning to take my daughter to school. dude rides in the front seat on those trips and, weather-permitting, i always roll the window down because all the teachers opening car doors want to get in their daily dude fix!! when i pull of, its not uncommon for 2 or 3 teachers to be yelling, "bye dude!"  

in the afternoons, i am home from work at least twice a week early enough to walk to school with the dogs so then they get tons of attention from the kids. i take care of the school grounds so we hang out and water flowers, weed, sweep, etc. and so they have become the school mascots- lol!


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## calarche (May 6, 2013)

We are in the process of moving, and, I'm the only one working right now, but I'm willing to help however I can. I'm new here and I already love Duke. The picture of them chilling by the fireplace did me in. 

Goooooooo DUKE!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

that's dude's red saddle bag in that last photo. i love that thing. i carry it like a doggy diaper bag whenever i take the dogs with me and then if i need help, i can just strap it on big guy. he loves it, too. he gets excited when he sees it- it means we're going somewhere.

so, anyway, here is one more picture for all of dude's new fans! tee hee. these eyes are why he gets away with what he does around here!

have a good night all!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I am literally sitting here with tears streaming down my face......not out of sadness but of joy and hope that this will have another PF happy ending! I would soooo miss my "Dude and Daisy" show!!!!!! This has got to work!!!!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

HerdingStdPoodle is the real one that got this fund running. She pm me with another $50 for Dude! Love this Forum!


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## Toy poodlelvr (Mar 24, 2013)

Ahhh, my lovely couple!! I hope everything is well for dude


Gooooooooooo DUDE!!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> HerdingStdPoodle is the real one that got this fund running. She pm me with another $50 for Dude! Love this Forum!


Good morning everyone! I talked to my husband last night and his knee-jerk reaction was, "No, I don't feel right taking hand-outs."

I was able to make him feel better about it by putting a different spin on it. (I hope you don't mind how I spoke for you guys and sort-of "embellished" a little, but I was grasping.) 

Anyway, I told my husband that everyone who was offering to help with Dude's situation was doing so for DUDE and I also explained that you all prefer to donate to causes like this where you get to see 100% of your contributions go _directly _to where you want it and you all will get to see the effects of it (rather than giving to a general fund contribution to a rescue or some other group). Hearing that made him feel better about it. I kinda made it sound like you guys would be giving this money to support poodles in one way or another, if not us to a rescue. I know that's probably not true, but I was desperate! Sorry! (It did work, though!) 

OK, well, its time for me to start getting ready for our 9:00 appointment! 

If my vet also thinks this is a reasonable solution and agrees to a prescription, I will post my Paypal address for everyone.

You guys rock! :drum:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> Good morning everyone! I talked to my husband last night and his knee-jerk reaction was, "No, I don't feel right taking hand-outs."


You just tell him the entertainment and pleasure we get from Dude is valuable beyond dollars and cents. In fact, you should charge us for all the fun he brings the group!  Good luck at the vet's!:clover: (This is merely a "helping hand," just as you have provided others.)


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

I think you also need to remind DH that Carley's Mom will hunt him down and neuter him for any pushback on this! :boxing:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Hellooooooo! So, we saw the doc, got a script and he did say (as we already knew) that this is intended to be used with behavior modification so he won't stay on it long-term.

Does anyone know about doseage? Does this look appropriate for 103 pounds?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Lol- I put my bill over my name and address- I didn't mean for it to display how much I paid. (He had his heart worm test too.)


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Oh, and I guess it's time to post my Paypal addy. Feels weird!
But, here it is: [email protected]

I found the crate for $50 less on Amazon!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Is there an Alcatraz crate large enough for a 103 pound dog? With the better price, what is the total with shipping?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

NYNIC715 said:


> I think you also need to remind DH that Carley's Mom will hunt him down and neuter him for any pushback on this! :boxing:


LMBO- why did I not think of this???? Hahahaha


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

ProSelect Empire Color Cage for Pets, Large, Blue Splash:Amazonet Supplies

$452 with shipping. Only ONE left!
The dimensions on the large look good, IMO.

ETA: so my math was off, it's $485 from PetEdge (because its not eligible for the free shipping). So Amazon is $33 less-not $50.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Below link is from clomicalm's website (script is for the generic)

Scroll down about half way on the page - on the right is a box with dosing info. Not sure if generic dosing differs.

http://www.clomicalm.novartis.us/pdf/Clomicalm-product-info.pdf

Per this site - which is selling the generic - the dosing sounds about right (0.50 - 1.50mg per pound) So if the vet is basing the dose onn 0.50mg/pound it is about right... 

Medi-Vet Animal Health - Detail1 - 10875 - Clomipramine HCL 75 mg, 90 Capsules - Anxiety & Stress Relief - Behavior - Prescription Medications & Medical Devices - Medi-Vet Animal Health

On a brighter note - this site that sells it - has some reviews - VERY promising...
Clomipramine HCL 50 mg, 90 Capsules | VetDepot.com


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> Oh, and I guess it's time to post my Paypal addy. Feels weird!
> But, here it is: [email protected]
> 
> I found the crate for $50 less on Amazon!


Just sent in our $$ support, you have our emotional support too! :clover: 
Chagall & Debbie


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

donation sent in for Team Dude!


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## plr (Oct 20, 2012)

$$ sent, along with emotional support for you, your family and Dude.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Done! Thanks for the great updates!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

*From the vet's office this morning while sporting his finest "I Like Big Mutts" t-shirt:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

kuku, the account did not work for me. I will try again later.


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## peepers (Apr 13, 2012)

*Contribution sent*

Best of luck! Pierre the toy poodle and family


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> kuku, the account did not work for me. I will try again later.


There have been six deposits today but only four who have posted saying they sent something. Are you sure yours didn't go through? 

Thank you for trying!


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

When I ordered Lexi's crate with Amazon, I was able to sign up for a trial on their Amazon Prime membership. The item qualified for free shipping but I was able to get it under their expidited shipping for free as well. I even called Amazon to tell them the item number and to double check that for an over sized item it would qualify. The catch is, you have to go in once you get the item and cancel the membership or they bill you $70.00 for the yearly service. It got it to me faster without costing extra. Might be worth a phone call to see if it would qualify.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

katbrat said:


> When I ordered Lexi's crate with Amazon, I was able to sign up for a trial on their Amazon Prime membership. The item qualified for free shipping but I was able to get it under their expidited shipping for free as well. I even called Amazon to tell them the item number and to double check that for an over sized item it would qualify. The catch is, you have to go in once you get the item and cancel the membership or they bill you $70.00 for the yearly service. It got it to me faster without costing extra. Might be worth a phone call to see if it would qualify.


Thank you, luckily I do have prime so it's free, two- day shipping! (We cancelled our expanded cable TV service about 8 months ago and only have basic now. We bought a Roku and use Amazon Prime and Netflix to watch TV and movies now so that ends up saving us over $1000 a year! LOVE Amazon Prime! Plus, I got it cheaper too because I have a student email address since I work for the University. Shhhhhhhh!)


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## KidWhisperer (Apr 3, 2012)

Sent $$ from Team Sammi. You can do this!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

No, it's not working for me and I got a pm from someone else that is having trouble as well. You may want to pm me with your address. Just so I can send a check... I promise. LOL


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

So, you're going to Paypal, signing in to your account and then entering my email address into the "To:" field? That *should* do it.

I'll PM you my mailing address, too, just in case that doesn't work still.

Thanks!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Kuku - perhaps PM your phone # to see if that works for those who are trying to send out the money... Just make sure the phone number you provide is the one associated with the account...


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have an account. What I am getting is that your account is not active. No worries, I am writing the check now and putting it in the mailbox.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

$ Sent with hopes that this is gonna work!!!! 

I LOVE YOU DUDE!!!!!!!






Laurel & Molly


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

I just finished giving both dogs a shave-down.....we're turning over a new leaf with new do's. I also ordered the crate and it will be here Saturday!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Wait Houdini let's you shave him down & doesn't bolt? He's a pretty awesome dude - no pun intended!! 


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

NYNIC715 said:


> Wait Houdini let's you shave him down & doesn't bolt? He's a pretty awesome dude - no pun intended!!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


haha- yes, he is soooo cool in every other regard! in fact, he is so laid back that i can also clean his teeth! i'm a registered dental hygienist so when i say i clean his teeth, i CLEAN his teeth; sub-gingival scaling and all!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

daisy, on the other hand, is a work-out. she does not enjoy it all. life at the puppy mill meant she was only groomed twice a year which i'm sure was not pleasant as she had to be a mess each time. when we picked her up, we had to ride with the windows down in the freezing- cold because the smell of feces in her fur was so bad. 

she's slowly getting a little bit more relaxed but we still have a long way to go in that regard.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> haha- yes, he is soooo cool in every other regard! in fact, he is so laid back that i can also clean his teeth! i'm a registered dental hygienist so when i say i clean his teeth, i CLEAN his teeth; sub-gingival scaling and all!


I have a question for you. Swizzle's teeth are nice and white. I pretend scale him all the time in case I ever need to do it for real. I just noticed when he was yawning that the back side of his teeth (tongue side) of a few of his teeth look slightly brown. Is this tarter? What should I do? I have been scraping the front of his teeth in case real scaling is needed but I have never done the tongue side. Any suggestions?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

do you have a dental mirror to retract his tongue? I have an actual retractor that is used in dentistry which has a much greater surface area than a mirror alone so it works much better but a mirror could help you.

the brown is probably tartar, but without seeing it i cannot say for sure. tartar doesn't always form bulky chunks that you can "pop" off with the scaler. sometimes it forms "sheet calculus" which can be tougher to remove simply because it requires repeated, minute strokes.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Here's my shaved-down, chicken-legged Doozys as well as my other favorite boy/girl pair, often referred to as "Double Trouble."


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Coolest looking group right there!!! I cannot believe he is soo laid back in each and every way - I mean dental work and he's good??!!!!?!?!?! That's impressive in itself! 

Really hopping everything works out for the best!!! 


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Daisy looks and sounds as if she already had come a long way from where she was! Bathing...eh at least you can get it done and she isn't aggressive about it & does tolerate it enough!!! She probably never had a real bath as you mentioned... She looks though like she is just fine?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*kukukachoo*: It's easy to see how much your children love Dude and Daisy. The smiles on their sweet faces say it all! Here's to you being able to turn things around for Dude, giving everyone a reason to keep on smiling! 

Have you worked out a plan for introducing Dude to his crate and where you'll put it? I'm sure you know there are lots of crate training videos on line. I wonder if having the children watch some, maybe Susan Garrett's crate training games (they're great fun!) or those by kikopup might be helpful? Just a thought, having lots of those lately about you and your poodle family!:clover:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> *kukukachoo*: It's easy to see how much your children love Dude and Daisy. The smiles on their sweet faces say it all! Here's to you being able to turn things around for Dude, giving everyone a reason to keep on smiling!
> 
> Have you worked out a plan for introducing Dude to his crate and where you'll put it? I'm sure you know there are lots of crate training videos on line. I wonder if having the children watch some, maybe Susan Garrett's crate training games (they're great fun!) or those by kikopup might be helpful? Just a thought, having lots of those lately about you and your poodle family!:clover:


No, and in fact I must admit I'm scared to begin. I have his prescription filled and his crate will be here tomorrow. I would welcome any advice and/or links to videos or articles that demonstrate an approach you all think will be most effective. While I am really excited at the prospects, I am really worried at the same time and it makes me scared to begin! Thank you for asking.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I would encourage him to feel this is a safe and wonderful place by having the crate amidst the hustle and bustle of the family. I would put in his favourite blankie and a nice meaty bone. Put him in, close the door and do not make a fuss. If you fuss, he will feel he has something to worry about. This is how we train our pups. And for the first little bit, just have it there, with the door open, with the blanket and bone inside and hopefully he will wander in and out after a bit and maybe even lie down in there with the bone. If he does, just gently and quietly close the door, so he gets to feel it is a good place to be. Never let him out when he is a screaming banshee. Wait until there is a lull in the hysteria, then let him out and praise him like crazy.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I would encourage him to feel this is a safe and wonderful place by having the crate amidst the hustle and bustle of the family. I would put in his favourite blankie and a nice meaty bone. Put him in, close the door and do not make a fuss. If you fuss, he will feel he has something to worry about. This is how we train our pups. And for the first little bit, just have it there, with the door open, with the blanket and bone inside and hopefully he will wander in and out after a bit and maybe even lie down in there with the bone. If he does, just gently and quietly close the door, so he gets to feel it is a good place to be. Never let him out when he is a screaming banshee. Wait until there is a lull in the hysteria, then let him out and praise him like crazy.


Arreau's advice is spot on. I have had spoo's for 17 years now - only one at a time though. My past two spoos were never crated. My breeder was big time all about crates... I thought she was nuts... but I did listen. I now am the biggest advocate of using a crate. It is their home. It's amazing to see the animal instinct kick in when they realize it is their "den" their own safe place. 

I am not sure if you have ever seen either of your pooch's do this - but do they tend to lay underneath a table or try under a chair? Polo always does this - which circles back to the den / security....

I would try also perhaps to drape a light blanket or sheet over the top of the crate and let it drape down over the sides... It gives them a sense of protection in there - again such as a den.... I currently keep a thin blanket over Polo's crate & notice anytime he is laying down - he's either under the table or now tries to curl up under the island's stools in the kitchen (it was much easier to do when he was 8/9 weeks old - now he shimmies his head underneath.... 

Remember - the crate is Dude's place - his protection - his safe spot. Meaning Daisey & the kids are not allowed to go in there - play in there etc... I notice if I go into Polo's crate to rearrange the bedding - he starts running around me - looking.... kind of like "MOM WHAT ARE YOU DOING THAT'S MY ROOM NOT YOURS!!!" Never put Dude in there as punishment... If he say breaks out of the yard - when you get him inside - do not throw him in there - it's too late - damage is done and he will think of the crate as punishment - which is the exact opposite of what you are training to attain... Never negatively assoicate the crate with anything to him.... 

Also - if you haven't done so already - start him on the medication... Things such as anti-depressants don't work overnight but need a few days to get into the body and start working... 

I'll be honest - crate suck at first... but with time and patience - they are 100% for the best.... It's just another step in the process of his "therapy" to get him where he needs to be.

Have you heard from the trainer yet? They can also give you a lot of pointers / advice etc... Remember a crate & medication isn't the final answer - he does need some training to help overcome the current obstacles you & DH are dealing with.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

To give some comfort about the crate - this is what I wake up to pretty much each morning - a pooch who is out cold with not a care in the world... snoozing away.... and remember I did say I thought the breeder was nuts & I always swore I would never crate a dog... I was fooled...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I agree. I would follow the same approach with crate training Dude as you would a pup. Also, I would assemble the crate and put it in place_ before _he sees it for the first time. (Yummy treat inside, of course!) You want him to have a good, calm association with it from the start. Any commotion with setting it up might put him off. Be sure to remove his collar before leaving him in the crate. At meal time I would put his food bowl in the back of the crate for him. Get everyone in the family in sync with the crate protocol; set up a routine for Dude to use it and be consistent, even in your cue words like "Kennel up!" or "In your crate!" Do your best to stay level and upbeat during the training. That energy (sounds very "new age" I know!) will be communicated to Dude. The crate is a GOOD thing, for Dude it may well be a lifesaver. We want him to LOVE it! :clover:


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am a non-crate person. I have never even owned one before getting Stella. She came with a nice crate and I thought, well, I will put it up for her until I know how she is going to be alone in the house. What I have found is that she loves her crate. She and Carley both go in it, not together, but they take turn napping in there. I guess I will just leave it up... it's been 9 months and I would feel bad for them if I got rid of it now. lol 

I don't know who this new person is... I have a huge crate in my office, 5 large dog beds laying everywhere,dead grass in the backyard , muddy floors and I don't even care at all...lol


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> I am a non-crate person. I have never even owned one before getting Stella. She came with a nice crate and I thought, well, I will put it up for her until I know how she is going to be alone in the house. What I have found is that she loves her crate. She and Carley both go in it, not together, but they take turn napping in there. I guess I will just leave it up... it's been 9 months and I would feel bad for them if I got rid of it now. lol
> 
> I don't know who this new person is... I have a huge crate in my office, 5 large dog beds laying everywhere,dead grass in the backyard , muddy floors and I don't even care at all...lol


The part about muddy floors dead grass...LOL soooo true! Yellow is the new green when it comes to grass... My hardwoods floors aren't complete without paw prints, and the glass slides MUST have multiple wet nose marks all over it!!!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I forgot about the French door nose art ! Just beautiful... and my lovely wood floors have such charter now...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

This woman in this video displays 'good crate attitude'!


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> I agree. I would follow the same approach with crate training Dude as you would a pup. Also, I would assemble the crate and put it in place_ before _he sees it for the first time. (Yummy treat inside, of course!) You want him to have a good, calm association with it from the start. Any commotion with setting it up might put him off. Be sure to remove his collar before leaving him in the crate. At meal time I would put his food bowl in the back of the crate for him. Get everyone in the family in sync with the crate protocol; set up a routine for Dude to use it and be consistent, even in your cue words like "Kennel up!" or "In your crate!" Do your best to stay level and upbeat during the training. That energy (sounds very "new age" I know!) will be communicated to Dude. The crate is a GOOD thing, for Dude it may well be a lifesaver. We want him to LOVE it! :clover:


We had never crate trained a dog before Lexi and we did much of the same things as above except feeding in the crate. In fact we had her crate in the living room for the first week, then we moved it into our room. It was the new art deco! The one thing we have done from day one is we have hard treats,(Blue Buffalo)that we have always given her when she needed to go in her crate. It is the only time she gets those. We keep them in a metal tin on the counter. It has gotten to the point when she hears the lid open, she will get in her crate, turn around and wait for her treat. Good luck on your getting Dude used to his crate! Can't wait for the updates!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Hey Folks! I started a new thread. Fresh start on the PF to coincide with the fresh start today at our home! 

Here it is- See you there! LOL!
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/51330-crate-training-chronicles-dude-daisy.html#post611058


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