# Color genetics experts: Red + Cream = Black... is this possible?



## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

I’m looking at a standard poodle pedigree, and I see a red stud and a cream bitch with a black puppy. I didn’t think it was possible for two dogs on the white to red part of the poodle color spectrum to have pups of any color but red to white. Could it be a mistake, or am I mistaken?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Not possible. Two blacks can produce a cream (or white or apricot or red). But two on the white-cream-apricot-red spectrum cannot produce black. 

White, cream, apricot and red are all ee. So each parent would contribute an 'e' to the puppies and every puppy would be ee. You need at least one 'E' to produce black.

Maybe one of the parents was actually in the brown spectrum and mistaken for red or cream? Or maybe the daddy is actually a different dog?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I agree that it is not possible to get black from red + cream. Does the owner of the dam have a black dog somewhere?


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

peppersb, There are no brown dogs listed on either side going back five generations. So either someone made a mistake when they registered the dog, and it’s not actually black, or else it has a different daddy!

Johanna, I will be contacting the breeder, because this mystery must be solved!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

What a mystery! Do let us know what the breeder says!


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

Mystery solved! The breeder said the male had been registered by his breeder as red, but that he had liver points, and she thought he was more of a brown than red. Just goes to show that the colors in the stud book don’t always tell the whole story!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

That still does not add up to a black puppy. Hmmmmm...


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

When it comes to genetics, I’m far from sure about this, but...
If you breed a bb E- brown to a B- ee cream, could that not produce a Bb Ee black?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Ethan said:


> When it comes to genetics, I’m far from sure about this, but...
> If you breed a bb E- brown to a B- ee cream, could that not produce a Bb Ee black?


Yes, exactly right. So a brown x cream can produce a black, but a red x cream cannot.

Thanks for letting us know the solution!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Ah, yes! That would work. I would think this might also produce creams with liver noses - no?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Johanna said:


> Ah, yes! That would work. I would think this might also produce creams with liver noses - no?


Yes. If you are breeding a bb Ee brown (brown that carries cream) to a Bb ee cream (cream that carries brown), you could get creams with liver noses. You could also get creams with black noses, blacks and browns. But if the brown parent is bbEE (does not carry cream) or the cream parent is BBee (does not carry brown), then you could not get creams with brown noses.


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