# Considering adopting an AKC 8mo Spoo Advice please



## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

If he truly is everything you said on that list, then wow you have truly stumbled upon a gem! Do you know why the owner is getting rid of him? That's what I would want to know. Sounds like a perfect dog.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Naira I really feel like I have found a gem! I just don't want to jinx it or in my excitement overlook something.

She has had a very rough pregnancy, is in grad school and working. She found out she was expecting shortly after she got him at 8 weeks. The family has 2 other dogs and as a mommy of soon to be 2 she feels it would be best to re-home him. The family seems pretty broken up about it, such a hard talk with her sweet little daughter.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Naira I really feel like I have found a gem! I just don't want to jinx it or in my excitement overlook something.
> 
> 
> 
> She has had a very rough pregnancy, is in grad school and working. She found out she was expecting shortly after she got him at 8 weeks. The family has 2 other dogs and as a mommy of soon to be 2 she feels it would be best to re-home him. The family seems pretty broken up about it, such a hard talk with her sweet little daughter.



Awww! Poor girl. And lucky you! If everything checks out I would be alllllll over this dog! Make sure to post pics.  if I were looking for an older puppy this is exactly what I would want! Seems like they did all the hard work for you.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Sounds absolutely perfect. Wow. Legs&leashes&lucky!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Sounds like an excellent prospect, pending vet check, at a bargain price. As to his training, the heavy lifting of house breaking is done, but he is about to enter the teenage stage so do not assume that he's on auto-pilot with all the commands. (If he is, I will be SO jealous!) I've got my fingers crossed for you, for sure


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Sounds like a great find if he's all he's advertised to be! And yes, he's entering the teen phase, so don't be put off when he "forgets" everything he knows for awhile. Maybe you could get something from your vet to help the dog with his motion sickness, should you bring him home.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

The age isn't an issue and in fact could be an advantage. My husband got his corgi at about 10 months old, which meant he could start agility work really right away, she was housetrained and had manners, and bonding was no problem. Now she's a MACH 3 agility champion and still going strong.

With this dog I guess one question I'd ask is where did the person who is giving him up get him, and why isn't that breeder helping her rehome him, or is the breeder involved as well? I'd want to know about the dog's original breeder, if they did health testing on the parents, that sort of thing.

The dog sounds great; this could be a wonderful opportunity for you!

--Q


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

He sounds great. 

The only place where I'd, personally, be cautious is the car sickness. Sometimes you can work though it and sometimes you can't. If traveling with your dog is a big part of your life then I'd be cautious about picking one known to be carsick. (Mind I said cautious and not that I'd rule it completely out!)

Our older Not-a-Poodle gets car sick. I can work around it but really what it boils down to is that she doesn't travel with us. When she does we have to keep the trips short or make them long enough I can give her meds. I've tried any number of things to make her more comfortable in the car and nothing works. (Tried a crate, no crate, in the floorboard, on the seat, meds, no meds, more rides, less rides, can see out, can't see out... Pretty much you name it we've tried it. We were even hoping that maybe having another dog show her it's ok that maybe it would help and, nope. All that happened is that when both are in the car neither are comfortable.)

She LOVES to go in the car and gladly leaps in at even the hint of a possible ride. She just gets motion sick.

When we started searching for our poodle "Not Car Sick" was #1 on my personal list. Another car sick dog would have been a deal breaker for me. I wanted Our next dog to be an "everywhere" dog. (My breeder does car rides back and forth to her grooming shop from a very early age and her line doesn't have many car sick dogs in it.)

But that's me. Taking long trips with my dog was very important to me. It may not be that important to you. 

And meds do help Cotton (our NotaPoodle). I can take her places and she does love to go. She just looks and feels awful getting there. (And cleaning puke, on the side of the road, isn't fun. Especially not when it's the 3rd time on 30 minutes.)

Otherwise, he sounds perfect!! And it is possible that he just needs more car rides. Keep an open mind and go visit him! If he's right for you you'll know the second you see him!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Really happy for you! Can't wait to see how it all unfolds!


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## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

Like Quossom said, I'd want to know more about this dog's background. It seems unusual to me that a dog from a responsible breeder would end up being sold by an owner like this, rather than the breeder helping rehome it. As a buyer, I'd also find it beneficial to be able to be in touch with the breeder in case I have questions, or in case the dog ever develops a health issue that the breeder should know about. $900 isn't a small amount of money, but it could still be a very insignificant amount compared to the expenses associated with a dog that could develop serious medical issues that would normally be tested for (such as bad hips, for example). Some people in our neighbourhood got a "bargain" labrador at the same time as we got our dog, and their dog now requires a $4,000 surgery on its hips or knees (I didn't get all the details about the health problem, just heard about their heartbreak in having to consider euthanising a two year old dog because they can't afford the surgery). If you were originally planning on doing a lot of homework about the health testing and breeding behind a puppy, I'd suggest that you maintain those same high standards when considering an older dog, too. 

If everything is in order and meets your high standards, this could be a great opportunity for you and the dog. There's certainly a lot to be said for skipping the teething and house training stages!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Mfmst said:


> Sounds like an excellent prospect, pending vet check, at a bargain price. As to his training, the heavy lifting of house breaking is done, but he is about to enter the teenage stage so do not assume that he's on auto-pilot with all the commands. (If he is, I will be SO jealous!) I've got my fingers crossed for you, for sure





georgiapeach said:


> Sounds like a great find if he's all he's advertised to be! And yes, he's entering the teen phase, so don't be put off when he "forgets" everything he knows for awhile. Maybe you could get something from your vet to help the dog with his motion sickness, should you bring him home.


So True!! Those teenage years absolutely skipped my mind!! Good to think about and prepare myself for!
I will check on that motion sickness tip with the vet. I wonder if she will give me something dog unseen. Hmmm..

QUossom & Rusty- excellent points! I will make sure to ask more about his parents and the breeder situation. 
His age was a definite plus for me. I realized I would strongly prefer an older pup but was having a hard time finding them!

Itzmeigh - Thank you for pointing that out. Something to definitely think about. *The owner said the car sickness is something he may grow out of. Is that typical? Has anyone had pups grow out of it?* I certainly hope so, I may have a cross country trip coming up and definitely would love a road dog.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW! Sounds like a great pup! But like everyone else, I'd want to know if the dog's Dam and Sire were genetically tested for inherited diseases. Of course it is no guarantee that your pup will be free of these, but it does stack the deck in your favor! Good Luck!

P.S. My dog got carsick til she was about 9mths old but outgrew it!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Beaches said:


> Sounds absolutely perfect. Wow. Legs&leashes&lucky!


Tehehehe I do feel pretty lucky right now. If I do get him I might post a video of us dancing together!


Now... I wonder if I could change his name at this late date? Ha... No big deal if he tells me no.


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## Rusty (Jun 13, 2012)

Begley was also carsick as a puppy, but outgrew it. Physical maturity played the biggest role, but we helped things along by desensitizing him to the car and making sure car rides involved going to fun places. There's some good threads about desensitizing dogs to car sickness if you search for them.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Legs&Leashes said:


> *The owner said the car sickness is something he may grow out of. Is that typical? Has anyone had pups grow out of it?* I certainly hope so, I may have a cross country trip coming up and definitely would love a road dog.


Yes!! All of my standard poodles have been carsick (drooly, sometimes vomit) as puppies and have grown out of it by 9-10 months.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Don"t know where you live but if this doesn't work out for any reason, pm Naira who knows of 2 lovely boys - brothers of her dog.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

We just give Cotton Regular people motion sickness meds. She's about 25-30 pounds as we do one tablet. It isn't enough to knock her out but enough to keep her tummy under control. 

As for outgrowing it, that seems to depend on why they are getting car sick in the first place. 

For Cotton, she gets actually motion sick. We have worked to help her "grow out of it" but it isn't something time fixed for her. She's gotten a very tiny bit better over the years (She's 10) but by better I only mean we can now get to the park or to the vet and home without her throwing up. She still is very uncomfortable (despite the fact that she loves the car!) in the car. 

If what's making them sick is just nerves and anxiety then time will and more car rides and making the car a fun positive place will often cure them. 

Maybe if you go look at the puppy you can see if you can take him for a car ride and see what you think.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Wow! Thanks for all of the help everyone!
Everyone is so awesome on this forum!... when I posted on my intro thread & was color struck with what color Spoo I wanted many of you encouraged me not to worry about it. I SEE WHY now! 

You guys give great advice no matter what! Much Thanks!

Here are some pics I received of him. Im loving his legginess. I will update later today once i get more info!






:eyebrows:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

He is a nice looking boy but boy does he need a good brushing!!! Hahaha!
Have you decided to take your chances on him? He really sounds like a jewel!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Ehh, if I had the space and you didn't get this dog...I would go get him...and BOTH of Naira's brothers, haha and just have a poodle palace.

I think you should definitely check and see if there is health testing on the parents. If not, no health testing isn't a death sentence either. I am in a facebook group called "I Have Standards: Poodles" and it's quite depressing at times. Lots of health tested dogs from reputable breeders coming down with all sorts of things. :-\ You can't predict what's going to happen in life. There are things you can certainly test for and I would want to rule those out, but the healthiest dog I ever had was a toy poodle from a backyard breeder. My mini from a BYB was pretty healthy too, though he lots of personality issues.

I am definitely not advertising for backyard breeding or discouraging health testing, as I obviously went a different route with my Spoo. Just keeping something in mind...you never know where life will take you. You can't test for _everything_.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

We got Beau as a 6-month-old, already house and leash trained, etc. Tiny poodle pups are cuter than cute, but older pups rock! Beau only got carsick once, early on, and proceeded threw up all over the backseat of our brand new Prius. He still doesn't like the car; he pants and whines. He is much calmer if someone holds him, though. In spite of that, he's gone on three hour journeys and we all lived to tell the tale. Good luck with whatever you decide!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Sure sounds like a wonderful opportunity to me. 

Adorable pictures. Clearly he's not stressed out on the groomer table. Bet you can fluff him up quickly if his coat grows out a little.

How exciting. Do let us know how this works out. As to name change...plenty of rescue and shelter dogs get new names and adjust just fine. New name for a brand new life!

Best of luck, Viking Queen


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

We'll be anxiously awaiting your news leashes......


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I got my first standard when she was nine months old. The breeder had kept her to show, but she just did not develop a show attitude. Although she was housebroken and lead trained, she was not used to being part of a home environment. Had her for 15 years, she did therapy work from the time she was 8 until she was 13. Earned her CGC when she was 11. Wonderful sweet dog, loved children above all else. She was flighty at first, but once she figured out that she was in her forever home... she was the best dog in the world.


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

Our current standard Finn, joined our family in January...he's two. He's a great boy, already house trained, walks on a leash, co-operates with grooming, etc.

I would ask about his breeder, and if any health testing was done on his parents. Finn had been kept by his breeder for show, and for possible breeding, but it just didn't work out. He is a great family member.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

**Update!!**

So the pups owner sent me videos of him today! I think I may be in love :adore: I will see if I can post a clip of the video to share.

Ok so I found out the breeder & health info. The breeder has put breeding on hold, has rehomed some of her dogs and may not continue due to extreme health issues. The breeders dad is a vet and all the dogs she has bred have been tested through him but not formally through the OFA. 

He has the 5 generation AKC pedigree and some of the dogs in there are formally DNA tested. My doggie's current vet says he has excellent hips and patella. The current owner says that she will get a health certificate from the vet.

Thoughts?

All in all.. I think I am going to go get him next weekend. Haha and as I re-read this post I realize I just referred to him as "MY DOGGIE". Plus I was looking up names last night. Tehehe... I think its official. I love him already.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WHOPEE!!!!! CONGRATULATIONS and keep on posting! We will be waiting for that 'homecoming report!'


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I just feel this is right, and that you have done enough to go into this feeling pretty confident. I'm happy for you, and this lucky spoo!


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Tehehehe I do feel pretty lucky right now. If I do get him I might post a video of us dancing together!
> 
> 
> Now... I wonder if I could change his name at this late date? Ha... No big deal if he tells me no.


You can change a name at any age! I rescue almost all of my dogs and have changed all their names. I changed Sunny's name from Fluffy (really?), and Jackson was a pound dog, so I had to name him. These are both seniors and have had no problem learning their new names. Just praise (or even treat, if you're into that) whenever he responds to the new name, even if accidentally. He'll catch on in a few days.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have change all the dogs names except this last one, if they were re-homed, and it only takes a few days and they get it, with praise and treats


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Of course he is already yours, in your heart! 

Now, go get him!!!

Viking Queen


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i changed the name of the retired lowchen show dog who joined my household. she was seven when she came to me. just followed a formula i found online: had her sit and walked around her in a circle several times saying her new name and dropping a treat each time i said it. no problem at all making the transition.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok so heres a video of "Bill" the Spoo lol :aetsch:

Is it just me or does his nose look really long? lol I think it may be his haircut. I intend on growing it out. 
His release word is a high pitched "OK!" after any command. Lets see if this posts right...

http://vid32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/TristanR/VID-20150320-WA0012.mp4

http://vid32.photobucket.com/albums/d3/TristanR/VID-20150320-WA0006.mp4

(Just click the links!)

Thanks to everyone for the advice & encouragement!! I am sure I will be posting with more questions as next weekend gets closer. One of them being a name!


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

This dog is such a blessing. Please keep us posted when you get home. I am glad you are getting him and not someone who would take him for the wrong reasons


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

Enjoy picking up your new family member!

We love Finn's name, so we didn't change it...although we do sometimes call him Finnegan.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

He looks like such a nice dog, not too hyper either. And no, his face doesn't look too long at all, actually, he is very cute. 

pr


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks poodle runner! I think im just used to a tad longer cuts... at least around the head. I could only imagine what my head would look like if you shaved off all of my hair! :afraid: lol

His temperament is lovely, I think I could teach him all sorts of things and agility could also be a possibility. I love his little trot and his liver nose. Tehehe

Looks like I am sending the deposit tonight!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

He looks like a great dog ! I love his long tail ! You got lucky for sure.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Hey has a lovely face, I bet he will be gorgeous when his coat grows in!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

I did it!! I drafted up a Deposit Contract last night & sent the owner the deposit. I hope she wasn't too put off by my attaching a contract... but my Mom taught me well! lol Better safe than sorry!

I am sooo excited and Bill the Spoo is mine all mine as far as I am concerned! There was a family scheduled to meet him today but :aetsch: tehehe ok maybe I am being a bit of a brat now. I just am so excited and want to tell anyone who will listen! Can't wait to meet him!

I have been looking up some agility and therapy programs locally (Southern California- Los Angeles specifically). *If anyone knows of any good stuff I could get involved in to continue his growth that would be great!*

Im also thinking of investing in one of those car hammocks to make his ride a bit more comfy in my little coupe. 

*Oh! His registered name is Whispering Pines The Heartbreaker.* I am on a name hunt... I like Fitz, Koji, Banksy, Hans, Kairo & Mishka (Gosh i love this name... but for a boy? I wonder...).. the list is waayy long. I think ill narrow it down once i meet him. It'd be nice to have his call name be associated with his registered one. I am open to suggestions!


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## cailinriley (Oct 30, 2011)

Congrats on your new boy! He looks like a real sweetie; thanks for sharing the videos. I love how the current owner speaks to him; sounds like he's been raised with gentleness. 

I looked up the meaning of "Mishka". If you love the name, I think it would be perfect for your boy. "Mishka is a unisex Russian name that is rarely used in the US. In Russia it's often used as a diminutive of their version of Michael (Michail). It's also what teddy bears--or any cute, cuddly little bears--are called in Russia". The meaning seems to be: "Who is like God; White bear".


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Neo "The One". No more explanations necessary I always like the name 
Neo


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Congratulations!!

And...as an aside does anyone here know if this is THE Whispering Pines? As in....poodle stuffed in the deep freezer Katie Dokken?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

cm - can more than one kennel be registered with the same name? if a breeder's dogs have been seized, can offspring still be akc registered? the ways of the akc can be mysterious indeed.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> cm - can more than one kennel be registered with the same name? if a breeder's dogs have been seized, can offspring still be akc registered? the ways of the akc can be mysterious indeed.


If a kennel name is registered, nobody else can use it. However, not all breeders register their kennel names. In fact, many don't, and in that case, anyone could use the kennel name. 

I don't know if Katie Dokken's suspension is up yet. I heard a rumor that it was up last year, so it is possible that she could be breeding again. 

I would be very interested to know who the breeder is!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

from the op's point of view, given some of the breeding issues mentioned elsewhere on pf, the dog's pedigree is probably the most important thing. maybe folks in the know can help out with that even if it is dokken.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

If you look at Whispering Pines site they list a 'Heartbreaker' among the dogs seized .......I wonder if this pup is the related offspring originating from that line and who owns it now.........maybe there is a co-owner...
Yeah, I DO think it is THE Katie Dokken................I wondered about that case the whole time I read her accusations about the raid being a 'set-up' ........just don't know what to believe now!!! I'm not a fan of the HSUS either but her accusations are a little 'out there'

P.S. the OP does have access to a 5 generation copy of the pedigree I believe she said.............


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

I vote for Mishka. I think it fits him and it works with his registered name. 

I've done both ways. My first poodle was a toy poodle who's registered name was "Silver Sliver" and his call name was "Tinsel". With Hazel I went the other way. Her call name is "Its Slavic for Butterfly" and her call name is "Hazel".


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

at least this can't be the same dog, however, unless the owner is lying about him being - what - 8 months old? the dokken seizure happened in 2010, didn't it?

re pedigree, i'm thinking some of the more experienced hands around here may be able to take a look at what legs&leashes has and if something jumps out at them they can help out. no one is going to know about every dog. but some of the dogs may be known.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

patk said:


> at least this can't be the same dog, however, unless the owner is lying about him being - what - 8 months old? the dokken seizure happened in 2010, didn't it?


My thoughts exactly. I assume just a coincidence. I did double check registration on AKC and the dog was born in 2014.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Ugghh.. I am trying to see the silver lining here but my stomach is turning.

I did look up the breeder and saw the weird claims and "set up" accusations this morning. I hadn't had a chance to pull up articles but just saw her site. I did notice a WP Heartbreaker... but its a black poodle. I thought perhaps since the dogs were seized in 2010 she recycled some names? Could Whispering Pines *THE* Heartbreaker be considered a different title than "Heartbreaker" ?
I thought it was just some crazy breeder vs. activist war... I would never think of POODLES IN FREEZERS!! God awful.

*The owner told me the breeders name is Karen Grogan. So it looks like yes THE WHISPERING PINES...* 
Either way I found this site... Puppy ranch hit with animal cruelty charges - Kingman Daily Miner - Kingman, Arizona :afraid:

I am unfamiliar with what happened... and going to look some more stuff up now.
*If all of the dogs were seized... is Bill related?* He looked like such a well cared for healthy pup in the pictures the owner sent. If Karen's dad was the vet that unofficially checked the pups could this be another falsification? The owner has taken him to a different vet and all is supposed to be fine with Bill either way. This situation seems just AWFUL.... Please be ok Bill :argh:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Even if he is related that is not bad.......if anything it shows he had good ancestors!! She(Whispering Pines) may have been a little crazy and sick but her dogs were conformation winners, beautiful, and most were health tested..........Bill, if I had to go by the video, is a beautiful, well bred , boy!

Are you saying that Bill's breeder is listed as a 'Karen Grogen'? and she was also charged with neglect in 2010 in Arizona? How curious is that!!!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok I am beyond confused... 

When looking for Karen Grogen and Katie Dokken (they definitely rhyme) I found that site that I posted above. 
But then Whispering Pines comes up with it own set of insanity. 
I don't know what to make of this!!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Hey, don't freak out too much. It seems your pup might be related to this "not-so-stellar" line, but he seems a step removed from the "source."

True confession: my first purebred dog was from a --gasp!-- pet store. (I was 17/18 and knew nothing--NOTHING!) A few years later I saw that her "breeder" had been convicted of animal cruelty / bad breeding practices of some ilk and had had her AKC privileges revoked. My dog had a CD by then but it still freaked me out. Though she was obviously a puppy mill dog, she was my heart dog and the best, most willing, most adaptable, most wonderful dog ever. She lived to 15 and never had a health problem in her life.

Which is all to say, if this boy is okay, he's okay. He may not have the ideal origin, but judged by his own self, does he seem like what you want? Then good.

--Q


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

If Bill is ok, then he's ok. And that's what's important. 

How long have the current owners had Bill? Have they taken him to the vet? What does their vet say about Bill?

Take a deep breath. Bill is who he is, independent of his breeder.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

MollyMuiMa said:


> Even if he is related that is not bad.......if anything it shows he had good ancestors!! She(Whispering Pines) may have been a little crazy and sick but her dogs were conformation winners, beautiful, and most were health tested..........Bill, if I had to go by the video, is a beautiful, well bred , boy!
> 
> Are you saying that Bill's breeder is listed as a 'Karen Grogen'? and she was also charged with neglect in 2010 in Arizona? How curious is that!!!


You are right... Bill is still wonderful despite his orgins. Yes... thats what I found odd... Karen Grogen is indeed Bills breeder. I wonder how she got associated with the WP name. Hmmm...



Quossum said:


> Hey, don't freak out too much. It seems your pup might be related to this "not-so-stellar" line, but he seems a step removed from the "source."
> 
> True confession: my first purebred dog was from a --gasp!-- pet store. (I was 17/18 and knew nothing--NOTHING!) A few years later I saw that her "breeder" had been convicted of animal cruelty / bad breeding practices of some ilk and had had her AKC privileges revoked. My dog had a CD by then but it still freaked me out. Though she was obviously a puppy mill dog, she was my heart dog and the best, most willing, most adaptable, most wonderful dog ever. She lived to 15 and never had a health problem in her life.
> 
> ...



You are right. My favorite childhood dog was a Boston Terrier we got from the pet store. "Kiko" she was the smartest dog & most athletic boston Ive known. I remember she & I setting up our own agility and obedience course in the backyard- she knew so many commands! She was also my tetherball partner and would hit the ball with her nose. Still brings back great memories.



mom2m said:


> If Bill is ok, then he's ok. And that's what's important.
> 
> How long have the current owners had Bill? Have they taken him to the vet? What does their vet say about Bill?
> 
> Take a deep breath. Bill is who he is, independent of his breeder.


Bill's owners have had him since he was 8 weeks. They have taken him to a vet. The owner says her vet says his hips are "excellent" and she is providing me with a health certificate which she will get this week. 

*Deep Breath* Ok I am calm now. In some ways Bill seems too good to be true. So when I read the posts & looked up the info my heart sank. Its ok... my family isn't perfect either! I will love Bill regardless!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

from what i've found, karen grogan is/was an arizona puppy miller. katie dokken may or may not have run a puppy mill, but she entered a number of her dogs in ukc competitions and they won a number of awards. she was based in virginia. part of the problem associated with katie dokken has to do with the allegation that she knowingly bred a dog that came from a line with addison's disease.

karen grogan and her partner (assuming this is the same karen grogan in the news) were accused of forging documents like health certificates. i suppose that could extend to pedigrees. 

where is bill located? are you in a position to visit, take a good look at him and his environment, meet the current owners? he seems like a lovely boy, but at this point i think you might want to examine things a bit more closely. cm said she found an akc registration for whispering pines heartbreaker that shows a dog born in 2014. i'm having a hard time reconciling that registration with a karen grogan dog.

i hope this is just a tempest in a teapot. but you may want to check a little further anyway.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Patk................Katie Dokken was a breeder, so who is to say she didn't sell a pup in 2010 or earlier, to Karen Groggen who was also a breeder and owned a 'puppy ranch' that opened in 2007 and probably bought needed 'breeding stock' ..... very possible!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

could be, molly, but since karen grogan seems to have been charged with animal cruelty in 2010 - and i assume her dogs at that time were at minimum seized - i think she would have the same problem getting her dogs back as katie dokken. of course it could be a different karen grogan.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

patk said:


> where is bill located? are you in a position to visit, take a good look at him and his environment, meet the current owners? he seems like a lovely boy, but at this point i think you might want to examine things a bit more closely. cm said she found an akc registration for whispering pines heartbreaker that shows a dog born in 2014. i'm having a hard time reconciling that registration with a karen grogan dog.
> 
> i hope this is just a tempest in a teapot. but you may want to check a little further anyway.


Bill is located in Flagstaff but I will be meeting him & his current owners in Phoenix, AZ at a local dog park so that she can show me all of his commands & he can show off. 
I agree. I am just so unsure of what other precautions to take. I have talked to the owner at length and she gives me daily updates. She has emailed me from her work email and happily agreed to the contract - so it seems she has nothing to hide. I am wondering if perhaps she doesn't know? I may find a way to fit it politely in one of our daily convos. 
She mentioned that Karen had some serious health issues & the last time she spoke with her she was looking to rehome her horses. 


Bill being in AZ was the reason why I thought the breeder was THIS Karen Grogan. Though even more confusing there is a Karen Grogan speaking in advocacy for puppy mill bans in Nevada Legislature notes in 2011. She speaks of being a groomer & working in a store along with her testimony against another woman accused of animal cruelty. JIMINY CRICKET all this cruelty!


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Legs&Leashes said:


> So the pups owner sent me videos of him today! I think I may be in love :adore: I will see if I can post a clip of the video to share.
> 
> Ok so I found out the breeder & health info. The breeder has put breeding on hold, has rehomed some of her dogs and may not continue due to extreme health issues. The breeders dad is a vet and all the dogs she has bred have been tested through him but not formally through the OFA.
> 
> ...


Just to clarify. Are you buying this pup from the family who bought him from the breeder who is no longer breeding? Or are you buying him from the breeder. The original ad is from a breeder called Pine Country Poodles. Although I can't find any other info on that name. So I am confused. Puppies for Sale by Pine Country Poodles


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

TLP said:


> Just to clarify. Are you buying this pup from the family who bought him from the breeder who is no longer breeding? Or are you buying him from the breeder. The original ad is from a breeder called Pine Country Poodles. Although I can't find any other info on that name. So I am confused. Puppies for Sale by Pine Country Poodles


I am buying this pup from the family that bought him from the breeder at 8 weeks. The breeder whom they got the pup from is said to no longer be breeding due to health issues. 

Pine Country Poodles? Shipping? Gosh I. Am. So. Confused....:banghead:

*The owner did mention that she had intially gotten Bill to breed with their other Spoo (pictured on the link) ... perhaps she was going to start her own thing under Pine Country poodles???


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Legs&Leashes said:


> I am buying this pup from the family that bought him from the breeder at 8 weeks. The breeder whom they got the pup from is said to no longer be breeding due to health issues.
> 
> Pine Country Poodles? Shipping? Gosh I. Am. So. Confused....:banghead:
> 
> *The owner did mention that she had intially gotten Bill to breed with their other Spoo (pictured on the link) ... perhaps she was going to start her own thing under Pine Country poodles???


From Ad
We have an 8 month old intact male puppy available that comes with Full AKC registration. He is shaved right now, so I am including photos of him with and without his coat. Beauty, brains, and health would describe him accurately. He is house trained, crate trained, knows sit, wait, down. He waits at doorways and before eating. Excellent off leash during hikes. He is a diva on the grooming table and will let you clean his ears, clip his nails, and shave him no questions asked. We've put a lot of time and love into this young boy. We have started him with his therapy dog training (see 5 year old girl handling him in busy store). He's a great pup. He can go to his new home for $1300 and you can take him in any direction (therapy, agility, obedience, pet, etc.), or you can co-own him with me for $700.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

TLP said:


> From Ad
> (see 5 year old girl handling him in busy store). He's a great pup. He can go to his new home for $1300 and you can take him in any direction (therapy, agility, obedience, pet, etc.), or you can co-own him with me for $700.



See I dont know why its showing up differently for me... But below are the terms we agreed to. Full AKC. Though this is my first time seeing the shipping bit since I did not find him through that site. 

..."(see 5 year old girl handling him in busy
store). He's a great pup. He can go to his new
home for $950 and you can take him in any
direction (therapy, agility, obedience, pet, stud,
etc.). Shipping nationwide through AA is
an additional $400. We will deliver him for free
within a 4hr driving radius."

Or the deliver him for free within a certain driving radius!! LOL Man i could have a MUCH shorter drive!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so let's assume the breeder is someone named karen grogan, as per the info the seller gave you. then karen grogan's father is supposedly a vet who vouches for the dog's health? is there a licensed vet by the name of grogan listed with the relevant professional organization in arizona? just looking for something that can be demonstrated to be factual as a starting point.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

patk said:


> could be, molly, but since karen grogan seems to have been charged with animal cruelty in 2010 - and i assume her dogs at that time were at minimum seized - i think she would have the same problem getting her dogs back as katie dokken. of course it could be a different karen grogan.


 
I read the lawsuit and it only slapped her hands and gave her a two year probation and fined.........nothing mentioned about being prohibited from owning dogs, so I imagine she could have retained ownership of a few dogs and started breeding again in 2012!
She was convicted and fined for operating a kennel without a license and animal cruelty misdemeanor. She did have a license to operate the
'K & S Puppy Ranch'..............just not a 'kennel' in her 'home'
She and partner were also charged with falsifying health certificates 
that her Vet reported she(the Vet)had never issued. This was just a few months before the cruelty charges. 




LEGS&LEASHES..............GO get Bill!!!!!!! We all have skeletons in our closets!!!!!!LOL!!!!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so akc did nothing about suspending her - assuming she had akc registration privileges? how interesting.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Karen Grogan was also listed as an employee of a puppy mill called Lolaa Kennel in Amargosa Valley in 2011. A news article from 2013 states the mill is back up and running in 2013. Lolaa kennel is run by Linda L. Smith. 

Karen Grogan of the K & S Puppy Ranch Raid, resides in Golden Valley, Arizona. The Vet name used on the false documents in this case was Darla Wright of Wright Veterinary Services, in Kingman Arizona.

Legs & Leashes you have more info on who is selling the pup, such as address and I am sure you will do your due diligence in relation to seeing where the pup resides, if you move forward.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Provided the vet signing the health certificate is a separate vet from the one Karen may have used in the past (her dad or otherwise), I think I still feel ok about getting Bill. It will come out as I follow up on his information. 

He seems healthy, happy & loved. The current owner has been forthcoming with all that I have asked. I am still excited about him. I will go with my gut on this one & see If anything seems off when I meet them (which for some reason I still doubt). 

In brighter news... I was excited all day & went toy & collar shopping for him! Pestmart has a great deal Buy one get one 1/2 off on all collars & leashes. I also got some great Kong toys I think he will love.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

once he's yours, he's ours, too and will be welcomed with open arms. do buy pet insurance. i think petplan and trupanion are the most recommended by owners here.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am so sorry that you now feel unsure about Bill. You were so excited and it makes me sad... but if you go see this dog and feel good about him, get him. It is not his fault that his breeder was not what we all hope for in a breeder. I would not buy from that breeder, and neither are you. My first dog came from a pet store too, I was a teenager and did not know any better. He turned out to be a great dog, very smart, healthy and lived a long happy life. I hope the same for Bill.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Oh my goodness, I am so confused!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Bill looks great, after 7 poodles and not knowing anything until I came to this site, I have gotten poodles from some horrible surroundings. They lived to be 15 to 19 years, and my main vet bill was for teeth on the toy poodles. My first poodle was 10 weeks other than that they have been from 8 months to 3 years when I got them. And none were really trained or even totally housebroken, so that give you an idea of where they came from. With in 2 months, they were house broke, and trained to set, stay. walk on a leash, and within 4 months to stay on a blanket when I took them someplace. I do feel older dogs are easier to train basic commands, which is all I car about.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

TLP said:


> From Ad
> We have an 8 month old *intact* male puppy available that comes with *Full* *AKC registration*. He is shaved right now, so I am including photos of him with and without his coat. Beauty, brains, and health would describe him accurately. He is house trained, crate trained, knows sit, wait, down. He waits at doorways and before eating. Excellent off leash during hikes. He is a diva on the grooming table and will let you clean his ears, clip his nails, and shave him no questions asked. We've put a lot of time and love into this young boy. We have started him with his therapy dog training (see 5 year old girl handling him in busy store). He's a great pup. *He can go to his new home for $1300 and you can take him in any direction* *(therapy, agility, obedience, pet, etc.), or you can co-own him with me for $700*.


Sketchy sketchy.

This puppy is being *sold*, not rehomed as they seem to have tried to pass it off as.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

It does seem like there have been some discrepancies between what the owner told you vs what she advertised. I still maintain that if I had the space, and you didn't get Bill, I would be on the first plane to get him. 


If his health checks out, and he's that sweet guy I see in the video and am already in love with, though the circumstances may be unclear--he sounds like a great dog. I want you to get him even MORE so someone doesn't use him for a puppy mill.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Has anyone ever had a breeder/ owner ask for your Social media or LinkedIn page when adopting a pup? Ive already told her my line of work and reason for wanting a Spoo. Plus due to my line of work I am pretty Google-able. My settings are private (friends & family only), Ive been friend requested... I dont know this struck me as odd. Is this normal practice?


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Has anyone ever had a breeder/ owner ask for your Social media or LinkedIn page when adopting a pup? Ive already told her my line of work and reason for wanting a Spoo. Plus due to my line of work I am pretty Google-able. My settings are private (friends & family only), Ive been friend requested... I dont know this struck me as odd. Is this normal practice?





I have never had anyone ask that...but maybe she's so dedicated to having her pup go to the right place that she wants to make sure you're a real person and see what you look like before she parts with him? I'm a pretty optimistic person and that's my take on it.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Naira said:


> I have never had anyone ask that...but maybe she's so dedicated to having her pup go to the right place that she wants to make sure you're a real person and see what you look like before she parts with him? I'm a pretty optimistic person and that's my take on it.



Yes. You are probably right. Thanks Naira you are the best!


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Nicely said Patk. But we expect that from you. Hugs,


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I was writing a blog when I found Carley and told the owner to check it out. It was about decorating, but it really showed what I was about and who I was. She did and loved me for it.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

I go to pick up Bill in a couple of days & I am getting sooo excited!! I have magically found myself in the Pet section of every store I have gone to & am I regular at the local Petsmart already. lol. Toys, chews, bowls, food, Kongs, Car hammock, car harness, bed, portable bowls... the list goes on...

Ive heard great things about the Kirkland Signature Chicken online & in other threads here on PF. Does anyone give their pups those natural Antler chews? This will be a first for me.

Anyway... Its not a cute picture of Bill yet, but heres about half of the stuff I got him (The other half is in the car & I am too lazy to lug it out). 


*Also is the Gold collar girly?*:bashful: My OH says the gold one is too feminine for Bill.


Still cant decide on a name. Ill be deciding on Mishka, Fitz(gerald), Kairo or Koji when I meet him on Sat. 
Now to track down a 42" crate!!

* I forgot to mention that Bill got his final round of shots & his health certificate yesterday. He was a good boy!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Oh, I feel your excitement. He looked like such a relaxed positive body language guy in the video. I would have to snatch him up too if I were you. 

Can not wait to hear all about your first meeting and the trip home with your new boy, Fitz(gerald).... That would be my name choice !

Excited for your new life journey with your very own spoo boy! Hooray!

Blessings, 
Viking Queen

P.S. I know we all shop the big pet store chain stores for toys, beds, bowls, etc, however, I have discovered that the Home Goods Stores (owned by the same folks who have TJ Max & Marshalls) have some VERY nice pet sections in their stores with quite attractive prices. As a bonus, I have discovered that our local Home Goods, TJ Max and Marshalls stores are pet friendly, so Iris goes shopping with me there. You might check around and see if those stores are near you and see what they have! It's pretty classy stuff they carry.

I am sooo excited for you and Bill! He will have such a wonderful life with you.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

Maybe when you go to pick him up, ask the family if they have any supplies they want to sell you. You might be able to get a good deal on the crate.

Good luck!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Antler chews are awesome, and I am glad you found Bill, and I love the name Bill and never have changed the names of the adult dogs I have adopted their name just fit. 

Enjoy your new friend.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have only had adult dogs in the past 30 years and most of the time they get a new name. I did not change Carley's and regret it... I find it so hard to call ... I am so happy for you and Bill, can''t wait to read all about his new life with you and your family , so don't leave us.

I like Fitz the best as well. But he looks like a Chaz to me.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

So happy for you! I don't think the gold collar is "girlie". It will blend in and you'll never see it. Bet you are almost counting the hours.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Sketchy sketchy.
> 
> This puppy is being *sold*, not rehomed as they seem to have tried to pass it off as.


I am confused  sorry.

is that the ad that the OP responded to? I thought the OP was getting a dog from a family. 

Sounds like a lot of weirdness but I am not understanding everything about all the Karen Grogen and the VA breeder and breeder's father as the vet and the breeder an employee at a puppy mill? Yikes! I am hopelessly lost in a PF thread.

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Have you looked at the dog's pedigree? 

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Legs&Leashes said:


> I go to pick up Bill in a couple of days & I am getting sooo excited!! I have magically found myself in the Pet section of every store I have gone to & am I regular at the local Petsmart already. lol. Toys, chews, bowls, food, Kongs, Car hammock, car harness, bed, portable bowls... the list goes on...
> 
> Ive heard great things about the Kirkland Signature Chicken online & in other threads here on PF. Does anyone give their pups those natural Antler chews? This will be a first for me.
> 
> ...


Love the Gold on Mishka! 

pr


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i want to own the pet store where you live, legs&leashes. i could probably retire several times over based on your purchases alone! looking forward to meeting your guy via the many photos which we, of course, expect immediately!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I am sooo excited for you! Can't wait to see more pics! Are you picking him up this weekend?



P.S. From now on you will ALWAYS visit the pet dept. in any store you visit! It's just one of those "I love my dog" things LOL! Oh yeah, you'll also spend HOURS online searching for stuff you think your dog can't live without...............


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

Can't wait to see pictures of you and your spoo!

Love the gold collar...I'd take the blue one back. I've had problems with the poodle hair getting tangled in chain attachments similar to that...but that's just me. Mostly Finn doesn't wear a collar in the house. (He is microchipped, and I'm home a lot). If we go anywhere, he wears a collar. I have to say, I like the way the blue one looks, I'd just worry about the hair getting tangled and pulling when I took the collar off.....

You might want to ask what food he is currently eating. So you can transition him to whatever you are going to feed. Mix some "old" and some "new" and slowly cut back on the "old" food. 

My nephew got a crate off of Craigslist...really good deal, so you might look there.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

wow i dont know what the heck is going on here- I thought this was a family rehoming but now it sounds like a breeder selling the dog? And all the shady what not with WP and crulity and such... this is all craziness. IT would be really nice to have this story set straight- who was the original breeder?, who are these people? why are they selling an intact male with a potential co-own? and why is none of this being told to you up-front. Esp. with an almost $1000.00 price tag!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

princesspenny said:


> wow i dont know what the heck is going on here- I thought this was a family rehoming but now it sounds like a breeder selling the dog? And all the shady what not with WP and crulity and such... this is all craziness. IT would be really nice to have this story set straight- who was the original breeder?, who are these people? why are they selling an intact male with a potential co-own? and why is none of this being told to you up-front. Esp. with an almost $1000.00 price tag!


*I am buying from the owner of the dog who has had him since 8 weeks. Reason for her rehoming the dog is as follows:*

_"She has had a very rough pregnancy, is in grad school and working. She found out she was expecting shortly after she got him at 8 weeks. The family has 2 other dogs and as a mommy of soon to be 2 she feels it would be best to re-home him. The family seems pretty broken up about it, such a hard talk with her sweet little daughter."_

The dog is Whispering Pines The Heartbreaker. The breeder is Karen Grogan. _I am not dealing with either party, but only the owner._

The ad I saw was not the same ad another member of PF saw & posted here, nor is it what the owner & I agreed upon. It was actually my first time seeing that particular ad. _So no co-own. Hes mine... full akc. _

To my understanding the owner was going to breed Bill but due to circumstances & decided not to. Regardless of a rehome or selling the pup... I still think he may be a jewel. I originally didnt think I'd spring for a $950 pup (most of my dogs have been rescues) & almost 1k is nothing to sneeze at. Some spoo pups have been going for $800 - upwards of 1k, weeks old, without the training he has, no testing or even AKC anything in my area. It seemed to me that general consensus was that this was a good situation to snap up. I visited a litter that was AKC, tested and the like but wasn't moved...He is older (9mos) which I prefer.

I hope that fills in the blanks on some of the confusion! Here are some vids of him in case you missed them in the midst of the thread  Your thoughts are of course welcomed!! 
http://vid32.photobucket.com/albums/...320-WA0012.mp4

http://vid32.photobucket.com/albums/...320-WA0006.mp4


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Viking Queen said:


> Oh, I feel your excitement. He looked like such a relaxed positive body language guy in the video. I would have to snatch him up too if I were you.
> 
> Can not wait to hear all about your first meeting and the trip home with your new boy, Fitz(gerald).... That would be my name choice !
> 
> ...


Thanks!! Yes he does seem like a cool guy!!

I see someone is on to my secret! I love Marshalls' pet section but forgot about TJMaxx. I visited today & bought a slow feeder bowl insert... way to enable my pet supply binge buying! LOL :five:


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

You know what, where Bill came from 8 months ago is irrelevant now. He's going to a new owner that's excited to get him and loves him already. Loved the comment from our wise PF member. "If he's yours, he's ours."


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Legs&Leashes said:


> *I am buying from the owner of the dog who has had him since 8 weeks. Reason for her rehoming the dog is as follows:*
> 
> _"She has had a very rough pregnancy, is in grad school and working. She found out she was expecting shortly after she got him at 8 weeks. The family has 2 other dogs and as a mommy of soon to be 2 she feels it would be best to re-home him. The family seems pretty broken up about it, such a hard talk with her sweet little daughter."_
> 
> ...


L & L it was I that posted the ad I found. And it was what the puppy owners originally wanted for their pup. As I said in my last post...ultimately it is your decision. You know all the details. I know you say you are not buying from Karen Grogan, but that is the breeder who bred the pup...and is not taking it back. My concern would be all related to health issues which may crop up in the future since you are not 100% guaranteed that his sire/dam and lineage have been health tested. I find it terrible that, in this day and age, we must question people about their authenticity. But if you just read through some of the posts just this past while on this forum alone.... such as the Tennessee breeder who had her poodles seized, or people who pass their dogs off as service dogs....you will see that sometimes it is necessary to question. The Tennessee breeder has numerous poodle breeder "friends" on facebook who never realised that she was, in fact, hoarding and neglecting her poodles. People can portray themselves anyway they want. The biggest red flag for me, in your situation was that you stated that you were not going to the people's home to get your pup. They said they would meet you at a dog park so they could show off some of his training......why can he not show you at his home? I realise that this makes a shorter trek for you to meet them, but honestly I would want to see where he was actually living. I have come across many craigslist, puppy find ads where the sellers have stated that they are rehoming their poodle as they are moving, or having a child...or any other reason that pulls at one's heartstrings. But then you search the contact information online and find out they are actually BYB and getting rid of a poodle that they are done breeding with. 

I just want you to be confident and happy with your decision....and it is your decision. Best of Luck.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

@TLP

Oh no! I hope you dont think I was slamming you for bringing the ad to my attention! I appreciate it very much, as I would have never seen it. Just trying to summarize for those who were confused following the thread.

I get what you mean about meeting at their house, after I had spoken to her daily It was my idea to cut some time off of my drive. That was of course before I had heard of WP or any other startling news. I saw the pictures, the other dog and his training and understood it to be a family rehome so I felt comfy meeting in the middle.

You are so very right though in all that you said! Some people go to long lengths to pull the wool over someones eyes. I will put some more thought into my decision... Thank you for the support! 
Sighh... I did see another Spoo boy in AZ but have grown attached to Bill, put down a deposit, am apprehensive about distance owners now and honestly feeling like I am cheating on Bill lol.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Ok I have Bill's & his parents registration numbers & names... How do I go about looking up info on them? Nothing comes up in a general google search. Help much appreciated!!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

try the AKC site if that is where he is registered.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

twyla said:


> try the AKC site if that is where he is registered.


Unless you want to pay, that won't tell you anything except his birthday! 

To the OP - you/we can look up his parents' pedigrees with his parents' registered names at poodledata.com or poodlehealthregistry.com (sometimes you will find them at one but not the other). If any health testing was done on the parents, you should be able to pull them up at Poodle Health Registry. PM me if you need help!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks! I am waiting for my confirmation email from both of the sites so that I can look up the info.

The owner sent me the sale contract she wants signed tomorrow when I pick up Bill. I don't like a couple of things in the contract. Please let me know you thoughts.

under Sellers representations & warranties:


"(d) The Dog comes with a State of Arizona Official Health Certificate performed by a
State Veterinarian, is up to date on vaccinations, is in good health, and free of
communicable diseases at the time of this sale. Buyer has 2 days from the delivery date
to have the Dog examined by a licensed veterinarian, at Buyer’s cost.* If the Dog fails
the examination, Buyer may return the Dog at Buyer’s expense, with a written
statement from the veterinarian, for a full refund minus deposit*. Failure by Buyer to
have the Dog examined within the 2 day period will nullify this warranty..."

_Is this normal? Correct me if I am wrong but, If Bill fails & is not at all as he was presented to me.. why would the "seller" get to keep ANY of the money?_



"(f) If at any time the Buyer feels the need to take the Dog to an animal shelter, or to
*give/sell/gift/barter the Dog to a third party, or needs to get rid of the Dog for any
reason, Seller requires that the Buyer take the Dog back to the Seller at any time during
the Dog’s lifetime*, no questions asked. Seller will not issue a refund to Buyer."

_If God forbid anything happen to me, or in any other extenuating circumstance, I would want my OH to keep Bill - as he has agreed. I don't want him going back to his previous owners or for them to have any "rights" over him after I adopt him. Second the OH and I may end up living overseas for a bit due to his military contracting. In which case Bill may need to be put in his name for a more smooth transition since the OH has already lived there & we are going for HIS work. I guess I am saying... I don't want any complications! _


Any help would be appreciated!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, I will say that, personally, I still think it's all a little fishy to be honest. Right down to the contract which sounds like a sales contract that a breeder would have, not something a pet home rehoming their dog would have. And, As a breeder, in my contract, if a puppy doesn't pass the new owner's vet exam within that given time frame, the entire cost of the puppy would be refunded - including deposit.

That second clause is pretty typical in responsible breeder contracts. Although, I think it usually involves some exchange of money back to the puppy owner..Having first right of refusal gives a breeder the ability to prevent their puppy from ending up in a shelter or on craigslist or other sketchy puppy sales sites. It's actually pretty ironic to see it in this contract...


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Unless you want to pay, that won't tell you anything except his birthday!
> 
> To the OP - you/we can look up his parents' pedigrees with his parents' registered names at poodledata.com or poodlehealthregistry.com (sometimes you will find them at one but not the other). If any health testing was done on the parents, you should be able to pull them up at Poodle Health Registry. PM me if you need help!


poodledata.org and L & L Charismatic Millie will definitely help you out.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Well, I will say that, personally, I still think it's all a little fishy to be honest. Right down to the contract which sounds like a sales contract that a breeder would have, not something a pet home rehoming their dog would have. And, As a breeder, in my contract, if a puppy doesn't pass the new owner's vet exam within that given time frame, the entire cost of the puppy would be refunded - including deposit.
> 
> That second clause is pretty typical in responsible breeder contracts. Although, I think it usually involves some exchange of money back to the puppy owner..Having first right of refusal gives a breeder the ability to prevent their puppy from ending up in a shelter or on craigslist or other sketchy puppy sales sites. It's actually pretty ironic to see it in this contract...



EXACTLY my thoughts! If she were the original breeder... I would understand the right of refusal but seeing as she herself is not the breeder nor was this in HER contract with the breeder its stuck me as odd (per her selling him to me- a 3rd party). And yes VERY ironic. 

Ughh... im so torn and quite confused and time in winding down. I will amend the contract for her approval in the meantime.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I find that contract weird. I agree with CharasmaticMillie. 

Why would you return the dog to her if anything were to happen to you, when she is giving up the dog because she doesn't have the time? :-/ She isn't a breeder she's an owner...this sounds like a breeding contract. 

That seems strange that if Bill were to fail the exam in 2 days, she gets him back AND she keeps all the money. What kind of protection is that? I mean with that kind of statement she could basically sell you a dog with problems, have him fail the exam, get to keep the dog and then sell it to someone else. The whole point of that 2 day time frame is so you can quickly assess if the dog is in good health (like the person promised) and if you discover he's not you don't lose 1000 dollars on a sick dog. 

I don't like that contract at all. The optimism in me is stretching to find a way to make that contract fair. She's basically taking no responsibility for his health, but wants him back if you were to give him up when she has already deemed herself an unsuitable home for him? 

What?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

She may have just 'snagged' a standard contract from her breeder... or any other breeder. Or maybe just off the net somewhere. If so, and it doesn't matter to her, just scratch out the parts that don't apply.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

With first right of refusal clauses, they are unenforceable unless a damage amount is stated. In other words, unless it said something like, if dog is sold or rehomed, buyer to pay seller $X.xx. 

At least this is what I was told when I gave away my horse. I was trying to prevent "horse flippers" from getting a hold of him or someone taking him to auction or slaughter.

Luckily I found the perfect home for him and 2 years later she still posts pictures of him weekly on Facebook and sends me PM's about his progress. Even gives him cupcakes on his birthday! lol

Anyways, usually again they are trying to protect the dog, but unless it is done right it means nothing


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

That does sound like a standard breeder contract, but I believe that 2 day values is stating that the costs of returning the puppy (like shipping for example), are at the buyers expense - it does not say that you don't get a refund. And remember, any ambiguity in a contract is always interpreted against the person who wrote it.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

It's good to do your due diligence, but at some point you start to drive yourself crazy over-thinking things. Any poodle you get from _any_ source might have, could have, maybe has . . . the list of doubts and fears is endless. That said, nothing I've read in the 11 pages of this thread has much to do with the dog himself.

Go get that boy, bring him home, and shower him with love!


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## Wren (Jul 2, 2013)

Have her include the name of your OH as co-owner of the dog. Then the dog belongs to both of you and if something happens to one of you, the other will have the dog.

I'm curious to see how this all turns out...for the best I hope.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

Interesting...


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

What does OH mean? Lol. I know DH means dear husband right?


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

It sounds like a boiler plate contract....so amend it so it works.

And name your OH as co-owner. Then get your spoo and love him.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Naira said:


> What does OH mean? Lol. I know DH means dear husband right?


other half? (just guessing here.)


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Naira said:


> What does OH mean? Lol. I know DH means dear husband right?


LOL yes Other Half.. we haven't quite made it to the DH stage officially yet. 


I hope everyone isnt completely annoyed with me yet! :bird::blabla:This thread started off as me double checking I was doing the right things in my excitement to get Bill. And then I got thrown for a loop.

I talked to the breeder about amending the contract. She says its her "standard contract" which further weirds me out because I thought she was just an owner who thought about breeding then backed out. Why would you have a "standard contract" unless you were in the breeding business?
As long as my amendments are reasonable she said she will work something out. 

She did take him for a groom & teeth scaling today which she sent me pics of. 

Thanks to everyone for their advice & hanging in there with me! 

Perhaps I will take advice to just cut out the guessing and insist I meet them at their home.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I'll say a few prayers as I go to sleep tonight ... Hope you have Bill safely in your arms soon.

Have a peaceful night.

Viking Queen


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## sunshine (Jan 31, 2015)

I can't wait and keep looking...
For the post saying, this young guy has found his way to his new home. Forget all of the history and the politics when you get him home. Let him have a fresh start 
And post pictures
Pretty poodle please!


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

I do think you should continue with your plans to get him, its not his fault his people are crazy....BUT I would go meet him at their home, because you are right...why would she have a standard contract if hes just a pet from a pet home? I would want to make sure that everything is as she says it is and shes not secretly hoarding tons of poodles in her basement living in filth and posting sob stories online for each sale to cover it up. Its been done...sadly. For peace of mind I'd drive the distance...esp. if it could potentially save other dogs or people.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I think it sounds like a breeders contract as well. I don't like the part of keeping your deposit at all... Most all my dogs have been adult re-homes and the only time I was ever asked to sign a contract was when I got Carley and she was from a breeder, she did not have me sign the same one a puppy owner would sign . It stated that if for any reason I needed to re-home her I would give her back to her and that I would have her teeth cleaned within a year. That was all.

Hope this all works out for you, please let us know. I hate it when we get all invested in a thread and the person just leaves us hanging...


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I agree with everyone who says that this sounds extremely fishy. I think you should emotionally prepare yourself to walk away from this. I still think it might work and you might end up with a nice dog. But there are lots of red flags and you should definitely not be accepting whatever terms they dictate. 

A few thoughts:

-- You previously paid a deposit, and NOW they want you to sign a contract that contains terms that were not disclosed when they asked for the deposit? That is an outrageous way of doing business.

-- As has been said, it is common for breeders, breed rescues and even SPCA shelters to require that dogs are returned to them, but it is not common for a purchase from a dog owner. My personal opinion is that this provision in any contract is very unfair to the purchaser. If you got a diagnosis of terminal cancer and had a friend or relative who wanted your dog, do you really think you should be obligated to return the dog to the breeder, rescue, shelter or previous owner? I think that anyone paying a good price for a dog should have full authority to make decisions regarding rehoming their pet if/when that becomes necessary. (I know that there are breeders who disagree with me on this.) In your case where you are supposedly buying from a pet owner, OF COURSE you are not going to return the dog to the pet owner. They should be willing to remove that clause from the contract.

-- Of course you should get a full refund if your vet finds that the dog is not healthy. The idea that they would even think of keeping the deposit just reinforces my belief that you are dealing with people of questionable ethics. Beware!

-- I'm guessing that the seller does actually want to sell this dog for $950 (IMO, that's a high price for a dog that is being rehomed, so they should be happy to get it). If they do actually want to sell, they should be willing to accept your changes to the contract, give you the dog, take the money, and be satisfied. 

-- I agree that it would be a good idea to go to Bill's home.

-- Before you meet Bill, think through what you will do if things are not what you hope they will be. What if Bill doesn't look and act like the dog in the video? What if he seems sick, lethargic, aggressive, or otherwise not what you want? What if there are signs of health or behavioral issues? Go to this meeting with your eyes open, your observation skills on high alert. Bring your OH if you can. Be prepared to walk away if that's what you need to do.

I really do hope that this all works out for you, and for Bill. I know that we are all hoping for good news. I think there is a very good chance that Bill will come home with you and that everything will be great. But there are lots of red flags waving around. So please be careful.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Legs&Leashes said:


> LOL yes Other Half.. we haven't quite made it to the DH stage officially yet.
> 
> 
> I hope everyone isnt completely annoyed with me yet! :bird::blabla:This thread started off as me double checking I was doing the right things in my excitement to get Bill. And then I got thrown for a loop.
> ...


This is all very suspicious. It is a fact that lots of people suck so when you see red flags, they all need to be addressed. How did the family rehoming a dog suddenly become a breeder selling a dog? It seems they lied to you from the get go. 

When you say she brought him for a groom and a tooth scaling... I can't help but wonder. Did she mean tooth brushing? Why would an 8 MONTH OLD need a tooth scaling? This makes me suspicious about his stated age.

I know how excited you are about getting your puppy and you are in love with Bill at this point. But be very careful. I like that you are going to insist on going the longer distance to the home. 

You may think that the circumstances surrounding the dog do not matter and you can just take him home, love him and everything will be great (and they may be) 

but you may find out that the dog is none of the things they represented him to be, such as... he is not house trained, he is actually 3 years old, those aren't even his registration papers. 

You know there are diseases in poodles that need to be bred away from... such as Addison's disease, SA, hip dysplasia and that's why one buys from person who is passionate about poodles, rather than a byb. 

I am not trying to poop on your parade. I _want_ Bill to be the one. Good luck and try not to be too emotional.

pr


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I can see the videos


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

twyla said:


> I can see the videos


I can see them now too... it was the second link that didn't work.

pr


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Some things do sound strange, but I'm hoping that it all works out for Bills sake, and for yours. Sounds like he needs someone to love him.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Caddy said:


> Some things do sound strange, but I'm hoping that it all works out for Bills sake, and for yours. Sounds like he needs someone to love him.


My opinion is that if the owner were most concerned with finding someone to love him... there are ways other than charging money. Did she lie to the OP or did the OP misunderstand?

pr


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

I was originally very pro bill and still am... But I really agree with PR and especially peppersb. Emotionally prepare yourself.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

I cant see any videos- says image was removed...maybe its just my computer though.


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## ososmart (Jan 2, 2015)

This was posted on Facebook. Thought I would share since some of it sounds very much like the scenario described here. I have removed the names.

Hi All! Some of you have already seen this and have commented - but it's been 6 months with NOTHING from XXXXXX! Please- If you want to see the contract or her emails to me stating the dog is a $2000 PET NOT SHOW- please let me know- I have everything in Black and White! 

I am trying to Place him on Puppyfind and SHE reported the add and doesn't want HER name or Kennel name on the listing!!! She OBVIOUSLY knows she screwed me!

Ok Chihuahua Peeps - want to give everyone a Fair Warning! DO NOT PURCHASE A SHOW READY/QUALITY dog from XXXXX. Back in February 2014 I had contacted her about a Show Ready older male LC Chihuahua. I had just shown against her dogs in the Corpus Show and liked their look. She said she had a 10 month old LC ready to go/Show/Ring Ready. I had to promise in writing that I would finish his AKC CH- Which I absolutely did. I paid $1800 in advance PLUS vet bill for vaccinations and teeth pulling (additional $175). I drove 9 hours with my twins to the boarder of Louisiana and Texas to pick him up- she didn't want me coming to her house. She literally did a "Drop and Run" in a post office parking lot. She didn't bring the contract- I brought a copy for her to sign-I never received a signed sellers copy but she received mine. AND she put me as a CO-OWNER which was never in the contract!! I DID NOT get a chance to evaluate him on the side of the road with my kids in the car - I TOOK HER WORD that he was of show quality ect. She sent me 5 pics prior that were from far away- she said it was raining/snowing and couldn't get to the kennels- AGAIN I took her word he was show quality- looked like the other dogs she was campaigning. Below are pics from when I brought him home and now. I took him to a professional handler 2 weeks later-she would not take him. I have tried in the last 6 months to have him campaigned - no one will touch him. I wanted to get a 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinion - I have gotten other opinions from breeders incase mine was too hard - they all agree with him being PET quality not SHOW quality. I sent her pics last month- telling her what was going on- she agreed he is pet quality and told me to PLACE him. Her contract states I can not sell him or she will place a $1000 judgment against me for breaking the contract. She said she will not buy him back as her contract states she will- I offered to ship him to her at my expense so she can place him in a suitable pet home she approves- she will not respond. She will not replace him either- said I need to pay her MORE MONEY for another SHOW QUALITY male- and that she doesn't have any- she lied -THERE ARE 3 males on Puppyfind and Facebook! I have tried to deal with her amicably, ethically and fairly. Asked her to work with me- to NO RESPONSE. Just want to warn everyone out there! Don't go on her honor system! Don't get duped like I did! I try VERY HARD to represent the pups I place- lots of pictures, video's-FULL DISCLOSURE of any and all faults as anyone who has gotten a pup from me will attest to. This is JUST NOT RIGHT!!! HINDSIGHT IS 20/20!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

The OP met the owner and Bill for a demo of his obedience training. I hope he's the real deal and not some dog fraud. Since I'm a first time Poodle owner, I don't think I could tell whether Bill is 8 months or older, or any subtle conformation flaws. Our experienced members would have pointed something out, I'm sure from the videos and the stills.


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

In case this helps...
We brought Finn into our lives in January. He didn't make the cut for show/breeding and needed a new home. He's a 2 year old apricot spoo.

We signed a contract agreeing to neuter him within 10 days. Originally, the breeder planned to do that before we brought him home, she agreed to let us do it after he came home for a few days (our D was home from college, we wanted that time for them to be together).

We met at a dog park. She kindly groomed Finn that day. Why? Our D is allergic to cats...and they have cats. Grooming Finn and meeting at the dog park kept the cat dander low, so she could enjoy Finn right away. 

We are not dog breeders. We do love animals, Finn is our second spoo and I grew up with toy poodles. 

There can be a lot of reasons for meeting at a dog park. Contracts can be quickly written/rewritten to meet the needs of the day. Go in with your eyes open...but keep them open to bringing Bill home if all seems ok. I could have written this same message without the reasons (ie D home from college, allergic to cats) and the situation would seem very different.

Wishing you all the best, no matter what happens.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Just sending positive energy out there in the universe today. Hoping for a positive outcome for all.

VQ


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Fingers crossed all goes well!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Hello everyone! I headed out for AZ earllyy this morning to go meet Bill. Thanks again for all of the helpful posts even while I was on the road! I shouldn't have kept everyone in suspense but for some reason the mobile version of PF wont let me log in!

So I met the owners in their own space- all seemed normal and well enough. Then we all went to a local strip mall so that I could see how Bill was around strangers. Bill was a little skittish around strangers if they tried to approach too quickly. Bill seemed confused at first then he seemed curious about me, I lured him in with treats and then he let me walk him without his dog mommy.
_
I know I know... you all want to know if I brought Bill home or passed on him. Well... *Drum roll* Bill is sitting here gazing into my eyes as I type this!  He is mine alll mine!!_

Tons of pictures are loading now.... be prepared for an overload of Bill! You have been warned.

I emailed the previous owner (<~~~ tehehe "Previous" I have an awesome SPOO!) last night about my contract concerns which she addressed, amended the contract and clarified her intentions. We agreed that if things ever came to it, that she would be open to welcoming Bill back should I so CHOOSE to. My decision, not obligated. 

Some of Bill's background with the kennel and such is still a bit hazy but he is everything he was represented to be and more so far. Vet check tomorrow!

Stay tuned for pictures and more "how we met" stories!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

congratulations! :elephant::cheers2::clap2::dancing:


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I AM SO VERY HAPPY FOR YOU . . . and of course for Bill too!!

Have a restful night and enjoy the first full day of your life with Bill.

Can hardly wait to hear more.

I think I checked this thread about every half hour most of today, just anxious on your behalf I guess. I have never done that before, for anyone, ever. Guess this thread kind of went straight to my heart.

Good night, Dear. :angel:

Viking Queen and Iris


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I am soooo happy for you and especially for Bill!

Congratulations!!!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Bill was playing suppperr hard to get when I first met him. He was a complete and total mommas boy! You could tell he loved the family & they him. He took hesitant direction from me but you could see his wheels turning wondering who the heck I was ordering him around. lol He's a smart boy but I can already see he is too smart for his own good! After we left he was a lot less confused about who to take cues from and what was going on, has let his personality hang out and has been on me like glue since.... ohhh about an hour into our ride. 

Here are some pics of the man of the hour!!

The very first picture I took of Bill! Doesn't he look dashing in his new car seat harness?


Trying to get comfy

We made it back to California!!


Getting...umm... MORE comfy



And this is the point during our trip where Bill decides he is no longer going to play hard to get & wants to get his cuddle on. He cuddled all of his 45lbs up right in my lap and fell asleep while I was driving! I wont be making habit out of this one... but Darn it if it wasn't cute! :hug-right:

* Ahh some of the pics are HUGE let me try to fix it. Please forgive the newbie!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

So wonderfully awesome!!!

He's adorable!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

so, wait, he didn't get car sick? that would be terrific.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Viking Queen said:


> I AM SO VERY HAPPY FOR YOU . . . and of course for Bill too!!
> 
> Have a restful night and enjoy the first full day of your life with Bill.
> 
> ...


Awwww... I feel so special!! Thanks for sticking it out with me and giving me some great input! I am going to try and get a little bit of rest. Goodnight and thank you for all of your well wishes! Tomorrow should be an exciting day!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

patk said:


> so, wait, he didn't get car sick? that would be terrific.


NOPE! Not at all!! Yaaayyy


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Well, here I am, checking up on you two, one last time tonight. Ha ha! 

Love the pictures. Great that he did not get car sick, and that he loves to cuddle and clearly feels bonded to you already. That's wonderful.

Somehow they always know who they are supposed to "be" with, forever!

Bill has a lovely sweet face. I will enjoy hearing his stories and watching him grow into being YOUR special boy.

Goodnight, for real this time...we are off to bed, as Iris is giving me that can't we go to bed now, please look.


Hugs to you both. VQ & Iris


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So happy for you both.... so what is his new name ?


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

This is the kind of thread ending I like - a happy one! Here's to wonderful memories with Bill/TBN.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Yippee for L&L and Bill, enjoy your new buddy


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Yay bill!!!!!!!!!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I am totally delighted for you, and for Bill. Yippeeeeee! 

Congratulations! You really handled a difficult situation very well. And you got your dog!!!! I am so happy for you and for Bill. Especially happy for Bill. Selling an intact dog strikes me as very dangerous -- you never know what puppy mill or marginal breeder might be interested in an intact dog. So glad that you came along to give him a good home.

Big celebrations in PF-land! We are all looking forward to hearing every detail about Bill's new life.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

What style do you want to grow Bill into? With his hair the same length all around like that he reminds me of my girl. I actually am quite fond of it like this. 









I'm so indecisive about her top knot. With my smaller poodles, the top knot was always the hardest thing for me to style. I didn't want it long enough to be in a band, but both of them never really developed that coarse curly poodle hair so it just stuck straight up and looked...well...crazy. 

That's how Naira's puppy top knot looked and I cut it off. Her hair is actually pretty curly now and it's not even her adult coat so I think she's got some good coat quality in her future.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I love happy endings!!! Congrduations to YOU & BILL


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I too follow this thread and am so excited it ended well for you and for Bill. I have gotten most of mine in the same fashion, as I prefer a dog form 8 months up to 3 years. So easy to train, and it is wonderful, best wishes


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Congrats! Best change your signature cause now you have a POODLE !!!!!!!!!


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

Congratulations! So glad it all worked out. 

I hope you are enjoying your first full day with a spoo!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks for all of the well wishes!! Bill & I are feeling the love! :dancing2:
He slept in his crate in his room (Yes he has his own doggie room lol) without so much as a peep out of him. We went on our late morning walk and he explored the neighborhood. He is now laying at my feet after a hearty meal and an intense toy extravaganza he randomly decided to throw (*Bills voice* "All of these toys for meeee?!?!). 




Carley's Mom said:


> So happy for you both.... so what is his new name ?


I am tossing around names now that he is showing his true personality. I tried in the car but couldn't decide.

His mom is "A little bit of Wonder Woman" & I am a bit of a comic book nerd. So ive been thinking that route as well. 
_Bane, Marvel, Magnus "Maz", Stark, Ryuk(Ree-OO-K), Hendrix, McCoy _are some that are in the running. 

and of course _Fitz(gerald), Koji, Kairo and Mishka _(OH says its too soft for him) are still in the running. Also suggested were Lebowski & "The Dude".

Decisions decisions... what am I going to do when I have kids!!! lol:ahhhhh:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just make sure you don't use your favorite "people" name. i had friends with cats and dogs. the wife of the couple told me when they had kids, they found that had used all their favorite names to name their pets! kids got second choice...

kinda like "magnus" and "kairo" at this point. love fitz, but i can easily see that turning into "fitzeee, coooome."


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Streetcar said:


> Congrats! Best change your signature cause now you have a POODLE !!!!!!!!!


Roger that! I am on it!! :bolt:



Naira said:


> What style do you want to grow Bill into? With his hair the same length all around like that he reminds me of my girl. I actually am quite fond of it like this.
> 
> View attachment 240554
> 
> ...


Haha you must be in my brain! I found myself staring at him this morning wondering what style I would like on him. The whole top knot thing is baffling to me... so many different looks, textures, lengths! Your pup is adooraablleeee and I am digging the grown out all around look.

Is it wrong that I want Bill's top knot to be a Mohawk? Don't Judge me . Either that or exactly what you spoke of not quite long enough to put in a band. On the top of his head his curls are more tightly curled so this might work out! I do like his tail clip, the base of his tail is shaved down in a strip maybe 2 in wide completely around, a simple sanitary cut with a bit of flare.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Like Ryuk


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

So glad that everything was as it should be. Helps renew my faith in mankind. Glad you have your Spoo and look forward to lots of tales and pics of the good fellow.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Haha you must be in my brain! I found myself staring at him this morning wondering what style I would like on him. The whole top knot thing is baffling to me... so many different looks, textures, lengths! Your pup is adooraablleeee and I am digging the grown out all around look.
> 
> Is it wrong that I want Bill's top knot to be a Mohawk? Don't Judge me . Either that or exactly what you spoke of not quite long enough to put in a band. On the top of his head his curls are more tightly curled so this might work out! I do like his tail clip, the base of his tail is shaved down in a strip maybe 2 in wide completely around, a simple sanitary cut with a bit of flare.


Good to plan... but keep in mind that I've had Tonka for almost four years, with a grooming every six to seven weeks. That's ummm... 4 X 8 *or so* equals . . . umm... a whole lotta grooming. In Life With Bill you'll have lots of chances to try him in just about anything you want.

He looks like his hair would colour up real well too! ...hint, hint... What's your DH's favourite team? 

For the ultimate in 'class', you could even put him in one of those prissy Continentals.  lol


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

What a happy ending! Can't wait for you to start posting about him! I'm sure that as a groomer you will be letting his coat grow a bit? I personally like fluff on at least tails, and bracelets on legs! I also think Spoo males look really good in the German Clip..............you might want to get the 'poodle bible' it's called 
'Poodle Clipping and Grooming: The International Reference by Shirlee Kalstone.'
You are now on the road to poodle hair obsession! LOL!


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Thanks for all of the well wishes!! Bill & I are feeling the love! :dancing2:
> He slept in his crate in his room (Yes he has his own doggie room lol) without so much as a peep out of him. We went on our late morning walk and he explored the neighborhood. He is now laying at my feet after a hearty meal and an intense toy extravaganza he randomly decided to throw (*Bills voice* "All of these toys for meeee?!?!).
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like everyone is in love. HELLO BILL! I know it is so important to name him. Kairo is different and I like it I've heard of a lot of Fitz's. Hendrix is cool  

pr


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Great news L&L. So happy for you!


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## frecklesdmk (Mar 27, 2013)

One of my previous spoo's brothers regularly sports a Mohawk


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I love Ryuk as a name and he would look smashing in a German, or a mohawk - hmm, can those be combined?


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Hey everyone just an update (Perhaps I should be writing in a different thread now?) 

Do you want the good news or the bad news first?

Just got back from the vet & Bad news is.... Bill hates the vet! He's a scaredy cat!! lol GOOD NEWS is Bill is in tip top condition! I was concerned about him being too thin but the vet says he's at a normal weight for his age & build. 40.6lbs today. I would still like to see him gain a few pounds... we shall see!

I did get a lecture about how I need to neuter him. IF I do that, I will wait until he is older. The vet didn't like that response... Oh well. She also tried to scare me with Parvo... saying he needed vaccines. Parvo is no joke but He is up to date on everything, I checked and double checked! I will make sure I get my usual vet next time... that lady is the best!

Bill is showing his full personality now, I think he is getting comfy. We have got some work to do on some things like people shyness & barking when he is supposed to be eating or sleeping in his crate. He woke me up at 8am by barking ...sighh... Bill. More Good news is that I talked to his previous owner and found out why. He is used to getting up at 5:30am every morning! He is still getting used to our routine so I will give him a break! He is very very smart so I am having to watch that HE is not training ME. 

As for the people shyness I am giving treats to everyone I see to give to him!! _Oh I almost forgot... does anyone elses boy have an issue with peeing on their front feet!?_:hmmmm2:lol Man... Bill has the dreaded soggy pee paws after every walk. Sometimes he lifts his leg... but mostly he doesn't. I bought some waterless shampoo spray (that he hates. but i love lol) for when we cant find bushes for him to kick his leg up to. 
He is in the backyard now running a muck. Hopefully NOT peeing on his paws:laugh: 

Before the vet...


And after...


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

He is gorgeous! I am so glad you have him!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

He is very handsome, and once he grows out a bit, I'm sure he'll look great in any clip you want. Our mini boy, Beau gets up at 5:30 AM sharp every day, and has for years. If you can reprogram Bill to a later time, please let me know how you did it -- if only they had knobs like a clock!

If/when I ever get another poodle, I'm naming it Tesla -- Easy to call, cool, and gender neutral.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

OMGGGG!!!! Bill is so handsome, I actually really love that clip on him. And yes lots of boy poodles do this, my mini did it his entire life. I am interested in what people have to say about that...if its trainable..that's why I got a girl this time. 

Edit: in your case maybe Bill will grow out of it when he can lift his leg. My dog lifted his leg and STILLLL managed to pee on himself. Bleh 

Do you know Bills height? And yes I agree with waiting to neuter. Good luck with the training!!!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

For sure on the wait to neuter. A year and a half at the earliest.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

So glad everything seems to be working out so far! Bill's a doll!! I can't wait to hear what you end up renaming him. Hurry, so it won't be as confusing for him to hear two different names from you.


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## mom2m (Dec 24, 2014)

You might want to consider zeutering Bill. Do your own research and do what you feel is best. We choose to zeuter Finn.

Finn does manage to pee on his front legs/paws at times. I bought pet wipes at the pet store...but I might try the dry shampoo. If he's really a mess, I wash his front legs down with a wet towel, then towel dry. It's warm enough here that I don't need to blow dry (Southern California).

So glad it's all going well. A friend who is a dog trainer told me it would take about 6 weeks for Finn to settle in. He didn't really change any much from when we brought him home. He did adjust to our routine. He got my DH up this morning, we were over sleeping.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

So happy for you!
About the parvo - if you have any uncertainty about the previous owners vaccinating him, ask your Vet to run a titer so you know for sure if he had immunity or actually needs the vaccine.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Am I the only one dying for a Bill update?


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Me too! 

Need Bill update....tomorrow is their 1 week anniversary together :cheers2:


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Hey hey everyone!! I thought for sure everyone was tired of us by now. Lol 
Today my boy got microchipped! I also groomed him for the very first time. He has been fun and silly and loves kids! His fetch skills are... umm... interesting. Lol he's a bounce & pounce doggie. 
We are working on his people shyness & him feeling comfy in different settings. I felt like progress was made before the vet microchipping. (More on that later) There were dogs galore in Petsmart today & he was on his best behavior & even let a couple people pet him. Just look at him with the dog in front of him going crazy & he's just laying there. He was definitely curious with his tail wagging but he listened or layed down on his own. 

Here's some shots of him today...


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Soo... this is the part 2. 
He got called back for his microchip. They wanted to take him in the back alone. I though it wasn't a good idea as... well... last time didn't go so well annddd... he didn't want to go with the lady. So I went back with him. But he wanted away from those ladies.They wouldn't let me hold him while they did it.

One was patient and was winning him over with treats.The other wanted to get it over with.
So they both came after him he was running away all over that room. Got him in a corner and were reaching for him. He freaked out & reared back his head about to bite her.
Muzzle timmmee.

He didn't growl or show teeth. Which was weird. He was trying to get the heck away from them, she reached & he opened his mouth and reared back his head. He didn't really react to the needle.

I'm not sure what to do. If he has time like 5 min with someone he is cool. If not and you try to get in his space he will get away from you. (I mentioned this in another thread  )

After was happy to leave & was back to his normal self. Socializing with other dogs in the lobby. 
He spent the day with family & a 4 & 8 year old and had a blast! Within the first minute of meeting the kids he was fine.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

More pics!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Frankly, any vet or vet technician who won't spend a few minutes reassuring a nervous dog is in the wrng business. I would look around for another vet, or make your feelings very clear to this practice. You could suggest they study Dr Sophia Yin's work on handling techniques, perhaps.

Good to hear Bill is doing so well - I think he is amazing for not following his instincts and biting, despite the scariness of the situation.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

he sounds normal to me. if someone scared you, you'd try to defend yourself, too. it's the vet techs who are screw ups. you should talk to the vet. if they had allowed you to hold him, he would probably have been fine. i had a lowchen male that was taken into the back room once to have blood drawn. he came back out and wouldn't have anything to do with me - as far as he was concerned, i had abandoned him and let people poke and hurt him. he probably struggled and they probably held him down, too. the next time, i insisted on being in the room. he didn't like it, but i held his chin so he couldn't turn and try to bite and told him how good he was. when the needle was withdrawn, he was fine. also not mad at me. 

you have lucked out. your guy is going to be the wonderful companion you've been searching for.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Thanks Patk & fjm! What you are saying is immediately how I felt! I just didn't want to defend my baby & his behavior if it would hurt him in the long run. What you are saying makes sense to me. Gosh I felt so bad watching and not being able to help because it was a "liability". Ugghh... I don't intended to keep them as a vet. But since it was just a microchip & they had a special I went in.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Soo... this is the part 2.
> He got called back for his microchip. They wanted to take him in the back alone. I though it wasn't a good idea as... well... last time didn't go so well annddd... he didn't want to go with the lady. So I went back with him. But he wanted away from those ladies.They wouldn't let me hold him while they did it.
> 
> One was patient and was winning him over with treats.The other wanted to get it over with.
> ...


This is normal behavior on his part. Vet Techs should have more dog sense!! I would have bit them!!!
Eric.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Yeah. Reading that behavior about the vet techs was infuriating. They need a different profession. They are doing dogs a disservice by grabbing them and forcing things on them. I would definitely have said something to them. A nervous dog and "rushing" and "getting it over with" do not go together


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Naira & Eric

Yep. I would have actually bit them, a part of me wanted to just watching. The place didn't want me to go back there at all but I insisted. 
When he fist started running the "hurried" vet tech said " Yea this is why we usually do this away from the owner. When dogs do this they are usually trying to protect the owner." 
I reiterated that his behavior was not to protect me but himself since they were strangers & he only reacted after them chasing him. I already let them know about his shyness before I even got in the room. 

I should've went with my instinct on this one & made more of a fuss or left. This has been my first time dealing with such an issue so it's new, but lesson learned I won't be back. 

Thanks everyone!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I agree......they should not be in the business if they won't spend time to reassure a dog. Find a new vet's office and explain to them what happened. A friend had a similar problem at his vet with a rescue dog. They were impatient, including the vet, and were quick to reach for the muzzle without taking time to get to know him. He growled and they did not want to have anything to do with him. I was there and quite annoyed with their impatience.

We took him to my veterinarian who took time to visit with him, feed treats, slowly move into doing an exam and it was all smiles and wiggles. They have been visiting him for years now and never an issue.

Switch offices and explain what happened.

Bill looks adorable, so chilled out most of the time. Since you are new in his life you don't have any idea of his history with veterinarians. He will come out of that discomfort space with time, love and patience.

Thanks for sharing your boy with us.

Viking Queen


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

What a horrible experience for both of you, no wonder they don't want owners in there to see their treatment of pets. We have to be as proactive with out dogs care as we would with any other family member, people in these positions can be intimidating. My husband and I had to be very vocal and insistent over Gracie's care with the diabetes, and we were often not the most popular people in the clinics. But with anywhere from 1-3 appointments a week, we had to ensure we were able to treat her in the following days and weeks. I never allow a tech to take my dogs "in the back" by themselves anymore.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

What horrible treatment poor Bill got!!!! Any animal that gets 'cornered' is going to 'fight or flee' and if you are handling a shy animal and have been told it is shy, you take it slow! Sounds like these Techs were in too much of a hurry and were not thinking of Bill's well-being at all! I too always insist on handling Molly, but I am a retired Tech and aware of holding techniques and they know that...........that impatient Tech needs to be reprimanded for sure! I think you should report her as she is not doing the practice any good if she makes the patients fearful of going there! I hope Bill's experience does not affect his future Vet visits!
Now, on to a lighter note! Bill looks absolutely adorable! If he can be that relaxed in a public place I don't think you'll have many behavior problems! Bet he's going to be a dream to train!!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have a vet who has other vets with him, and the office knows any surgery is done by Harris. When I took Cayenne in a couple of weeks ago, one of the vets looked at her since he was not there. She said she fractured 2 teeth and needed to pull them. I scheduled, and the day before the office called and said you have an appointment to morrow with Dr Molly, and normally I thought DR Harris is the only one you allow to do any surgery on your girls,. I said that is right she did not tell me she was going to do the surgery, but presented me with an estimate of $478.00 for 2 fractured teeth. I said wait a moment no way that is to much, then she said well we do not have to do this and that, so I will be speaking to the Main Vet for sure. Plus she was real fat and sloppy and did not look to clean to me of which I will also mention. He had made a pile off me in the last 4 or 5 months if he does not agree, I will move on. We do not have any decent General 
Dr. here but plenty of vets


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

In your shoes, I would find a new veterinary clinic and do a trial run appointment where you do not permit temperature taking or major poking, feeling around, or anything bothersome. I'd make it one (and you'll pay for it of course--I did this with my feral born kitten years ago) where he meets and greets kind, patient vet techs and veterinarians, and give him lots of treats and praise.

Probably well worth the price to do two or three of these if need be to 1. assure yourself you're in the right vet hospital and 2. set a new pattern for Bill.

Just a thought, it worked very well for me to take my kitten on non-medical vet visits, sometimes his own and sometimes just as a go along on my dog's visits. My cat ended up a very good veterinary patient, which he needed years later when he had major lifesaving surgery .


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Poor Bill. You can't rush a panicked soul, whether they are canine or human. When one of my daughters was a year old she had to get x-rays and I was not allowed to go with her because I was possibly pregnant. I warned the technician that she was a bit shy. She was a tiny thing, only weighed fifteen pounds, and he said he could handle her. He grabbed her and went in the room. The next thing I saw through the little window was my daughter's shoe flying through the air and then I hear a call for assistance over the loudspeaker. She had managed to kick him in the head with one shoe and her other shoe came off when she was flailing around. The assistant arrived with a papoose board... then there was a call for another assistant. She had kicked another one, and escaped from the papoose board. Poor little thing was dripping with sweat. Finally they asked me to come in the room and said that they would wrap me in lead shields if I would stay by my daughter and calm her down. Thank goodness she was fine as soon as she saw me. If the first guy had just taken a few minutes to let her warm up to him, I think she would have been fine.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Streetcar, that is good advice. I new when we got Abbey I wanted a new vet, before she came home I visited several vet offices first sizing up the front desk staff and the facility, then choosing 3 I'd consider. I took Abbey to all three just for a casual checkup and to interview the vet, only after that did I make my choice. Over the top -maybe, but now I'm confident in where I take her.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Charmed, your poor daughter. I imagine she remembers that or at least the feelings to this day.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Caddy, you were so wise and proactive, and you'll have a lifetime of successful veterinary visits (I pray all just routine checkups) as a result.

Here's a stupid thing I did with Oliver at the beginning. My real vet of many years had retired a couple years before I got Oliver, and I'd been at loose ends because another vet we saw in that hospital tried to oversell vaccines for my indoor only cat (veterinarians well versed in current and progressive protocols do not seem to predominate in SF, something confirmed by a friend active in rescue-so odd). So when Oliver needed to be seen, I went to yelp and found a hospital that was highly rated and made the appointment.

I didn't like how the veterinarian handled Oliver from the get go and was pretty overwhelmed by this...expert, whom I should have told to quit manhandling my Toy Poodle. We've never been back of course. I've not settled on who will be our actual vet and Oliver has been seen by a couple of very nice ones since that time. We just don't feel at home anywhere yet.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I sympathize with Bill...I'm absolutely terrified of doctors myself (think full on panic attack). Our vet is really nice, she has poodles herself and loves Hans. One thing we did with Hans when he was a puppy was take him to the vet's office once a month just to get weighed, say hi, and get treats and his monthly flea and heartworm meds. She never charged us for stopping in to weigh him (the scale is right in front) and now he absolutely loves the vet. She did take him in back to microchip him at our last visit, but he left tail wagging, and came back just as happy. I'm pretty sure he would go home with her if we let him - he thinks she has the best treats. I think the idea of some low stress visits to the vet is a great idea, once you find a vet you like.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

This thread has been like a runaway train and I just now hopped on...have been reading most of the way through your trials and tribulations...decisions were hard. I'm just here to say how very happy I am that you wound up with a very nice dog no matter what the circumstances before. I wish you much joy and many fulfilling years with him. You sound like a really good doggie mom, so loving and caring. Bill really lucked out and so did you. Congrats on your new addition.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Hello my Poodle Family!

Oh how we have missed all of you! But don't worry we took plenty of pictures & have fun updates too! 
(I was thinking of starting a new thread... but meh it's comfy here  )

1st things 1st! The Poodle formerly known as "Bill" is now "Gixxer LeBeau" or Gix, Gixy, Gix face or any other ridiculous nick name I come up with. For those of you wondering about the name I love riding motorcycles & was inspired by the GSX-R plus everyone seems to be on awe of how fast my boy is haha. LeBeau as in Remy LeBeau/ Gambit from Marvel & Xmen (Yes I am a motorcycle riding, Poodle loving comic book nerd... we do exist lol).

I think Gixxer digs it! :thumbup:


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

Hey Gix! Wow I really am loving that hair cut. Haha. How were things this week? 

I may get Naira cut that short on the body and get rid of some of that puppy Hair.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Great name! I love the picture with the bone on his head. It is a bone, isn't it? Or a bow? lol. He looks so smiley and happy. Wonderful!


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## maelee (Mar 19, 2015)

Legs&Leashes said:


> Hello my Poodle Family!
> 
> Oh how we have missed all of you! But don't worry we took plenty of pictures & have fun updates too!
> (I was thinking of starting a new thread... but meh it's comfy here  )
> ...


I don't have my poodle yet, but I really want to name it Remy after Gambit if it is a boy! Poodle Comic Fans, Assemble!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

maelee said:


> I don't have my poodle yet, but I really want to name it Remy after Gambit if it is a boy! Poodle Comic Fans, Assemble!


Lol!! Assemble!!!! Good to know I'm not alone. I will be here waiting when you get your ball of poodley love!


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

This week has gone great Naira!!

Gix is such a smart, sweet hilarious guy. I have been taking it slower on the meeting strangers but since he loves playing with other dogs so much we have gone to the dog park almost every other day. Which has worked out great because his guard comes down & he casually interacts with people. He got comfy eith the parents of his fav playmate & came up on his oen for treats and pets throughout our stay. I am so proud! I am seeing his confidence really skyrocket with each visit. 

It's funny Gix is curious but wary of adult strangers, but I have to stop him from going to play with children walking home on our street when we are sitting outside. He loves kids! Haha.

I also am trying to get him used to the car.... which I think I've accomplished... I was cleaning my car out & he hopped in, sat down & grinned. Lol.

We dabble on the agility course every other dog park visit nothing strenuous until he's older. He's going to be easy to train on the weave poles. He walked around like a proud peacock the first time he did the ramps! Then he got cocky on the high one & tried turbo speed & fell off... smh... luckily I was there to catch him. He's such a boy! 

These are pictures from our week-aversary last weekend. Gix loves kids& belly rubs, playing with his Pom pal 'Penny' in the dirt, eating ice in the car (he now has his own personal cup holder), starring at me while I pump gas, bouncing, running like a maniac, posing on agility stunts and Gix loves making new friends!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Whopee! What a great update from you!!!! Gix ...........cute name! It also looks and sounds like he is bonding well and feeling comfortable enough to show his personality now! It also sounds like he will be a dream to train!!!! I can't believe how lucky you are to have found him and hope you continue to bring out the best in him!!!! You have found the dog that many wish they had!!!!LOL!


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

I like the name Gix. 

You should think about starting a 52 Weeks thread. It is a fun part of the forum where you can chronicle your first year (52 weeks) with your poodle on a week to week basis.

It's ok that Gix isn't a puppy. You could just start from now.

There are some fun threads out there and it's neat to see everyone's dogs grow and change with them. I update Hazel every Sunday because she was born on a Sunday and that just makes it easier for me to remember to update and to keep track of the weeks. Other people just update every now and then. Whatever works for you.


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## Legs&Leashes (Mar 12, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Great name! I love the picture with the bone on his head. It is a bone, isn't it? Or a bow? lol. He looks so smiley and happy. Wonderful!



Haha... it's a bone. We were being silly & he let me balance his toy on his head. It does kind of look like a bow doesn't it!? Thanks so much for your sweet comments & for hopping on the run away train!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

okay, i said earlier i was sure you had lucked out with bill. now that he's gix, i can add that he lucked out, too. what a great life he is leading thanks to you!


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Gix is home and he looks so happy. Watch out for those pit bulls. Lots of poodles here attacked by them. 

pr


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Wow, a match made in poodle heaven! You guys sound perfect for each other, so glad!


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Match made in heaven, indeed!

I love the pictures and updates. Sounds like he is really at home now. Love that he has his own cup holder, as does my girl Iris! Didn't know anyone else did that cup holder for the dog in the car thing. He looks so happy and carefree.

Lucky you!

Lucky Gix!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Another happy spoo!!!
Eric


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## Reiko (Mar 9, 2013)

*Yay for Motorcycle Names*



Legs&Leashes said:


> The Poodle formerly known as "Bill" is now "Gixxer LeBeau" or Gix, Gixy, Gix face or any other ridiculous nick name I come up with. For those of you wondering about the name I love riding motorcycles & was inspired by the GSX-R plus everyone seems to be on awe of how fast my boy is haha... I think Gixxer digs it!


Just wanted to say that Gixxer is a great name! :good: I love motorcycles too (I currently have 2), and I've considered Aprilia (girl) and Ducati (boy) for future dog names. (The way I've been naming my dogs though, s/he'll probably be named after food.)


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