# Responsible Parti Breeders?



## cbrand

Partis can be shown in UKC in a separate class from solid colored Poodles. One has to wonder if over time Parti Poodles will take on a different look sort of like what happened with the Norwitch and Norfolk Terriers. Already, Partis do not have the same overall structure and carriage as their solid AKC counterparts. 


Are there reputable Parti breeders? What do you mean by reputable? Parti breeders have purposely chosen to work against the written standard as put forth by the parent club, The Poodle Club of America, by breeding Poodles in disqualifying colors. This in my mind puts them into the same category as breeders who breed White GSDs or Mini Australian Shepherds. Do you mean are there Partis breeders who test their dogs and are knowledgeable about structure? Yes. However, it seems that the majority of Parti breeders know little about Poodles and are just in it to breed a popular color that sells for a higher price.


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## faerie

there is a person who posts on this forum (tintlet) who has very nice looking parti poos and from what I have read does follow the standards except that they have parti colored poodles.

I actually met one of their dogs at my local market. Gorgeous spoo. absolutely gorgeous.

correct me if i am wrong, but historically wasn't parti colored acceptable?


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## cbrand

faerie said:


> there is a person who posts on this forum (tintlet) who has very nice looking parti poos and from what I have read does follow the standards except that they have parti colored poodles.


Tintlet is the ONLY Parti breeder I ever reccomend.



> I actually met one of their dogs at my local market. Gorgeous spoo. absolutely gorgeous.


Define gorgeous. People see flashy color, but they often miss the poor breed type underneath.



> correct me if i am wrong, but historically wasn't parti colored acceptable?


The earliest written standard I can find for Poodles comes from the UK in the second half of the 19th century (I think around 1870.... I'll try to find it). It called for SOLID COLORS ONLY. Although Parti people like to point to historical drawings of Parti Poodles, it is unclear to me if these dogs are actually Poodles (they tend to be long in body and short in leg with broad heads and short muzzles). They could just as easily be Spanish Water Dogs, Portuguese Water Dogs, or even Spaniels.


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## Feralpudel

cbrand said:


> Already, Partis do not have the same overall structure and carriage as their solid AKC counterparts.
> 
> Are there reputable Parti breeders? What do you mean by reputable? Parti breeders have purposely chosen to work against the written standard as put forth by the parent club, The Poodle Club of America, by breeding Poodles in disqualifying colors. This in my mind puts them into the same category as breeders who breed White GSDs or Mini Australian Shepherds.


Carol, I would be interested in your elaborating on the differences in structure and carriage that you have noticed. 

Although I would be quick to say that there are a lot of BYB parti breeders out there, I think the situation is different from say, mini Aussies. Parti poodles are part of poodle history and have been around for centuries. It is a naturally occurring trait, and we can all name AKC champions that are either parti factored or are themselves partis in colors so subtle they flew under the radar. Mini Aussies were a creation of BYBs, and generally involved breeding Aussies with smaller breeds.

A few other related musings. Given the ease with which parti colors and mismarks pop up, it might be less pernicious to the gene pool if they were accepted. As it is, solid color breeders spay/neuter their parti offspring and shut down those lines for non-health related reasons. Also, accepting partis might help separate the few parti breeder sheep from the goats, as parti breeders would have a competitive venue in which to evaluate and prove breeding stock.


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## cbrand

Feralpudel said:


> Carol, I would be interested in your elaborating on the differences in structure and carriage that you have noticed.


Ok.... to be fair, when we are talking Partis, there are just a whole lot of badly bred dogs out there. So when we talk about difference in structure, we are really often times are talking about different levels of quality in breeding programs. I can also go out and find tons of examples of crappy solid color Poodles.

However, I have found that in general that, many Partis lack breed type and refinement. They are missing things like depth of chest and tuck up, length of neck, tail set and carriage, and the coats often seem very soft.

Since Partis are being shown separately from Solids, it stands to reason that their types may diverge. Below is a picture of a UKC Parti. Based on carriage alone, I doubt this dog would have finished in AKC. Since it is a UKC Champion however, I am guessing that it will be bred and thus its characteristics will be propagated on. I use the Norwich and Norfolk Terriers as an example because they used to be the same breed but when their clubs divided based on prick ear vs. drop ear, the breeds became very different.



> Although I would be quick to say that there are a lot of BYB parti breeders out there, I think the situation is different from say, mini Aussies. Parti poodles are part of poodle history and have been around for centuries.


Yes and no. This is where I think the Parti people get into some revisionist history. I think most of the Partis today are not descended from ancient lines, but rather modern creations derived from breeding mismarked dog to mismarked dogs. Take for example the dog UKC CH Classic Koch Chubby Checkers Pedigree: UKC CH Classic Koch Chubby Checkers This full Parti is the offspring of two mismarked dogs from solid lines. By purposely breeding mismark to mismark they got Parti. In fact, I traced some of the most common Parti lines: Kitsue, Te-awa, Sunset, Sisco back and most of their Parti lines don't start until the early '90s. In many cases, they were created by close familial linebreeding, obviously in an attempt to double up on known mismarks.

A few other related musings. Given the ease with which parti colors and mismarks pop up, it might be less pernicious to the gene pool if they were accepted. As it is, solid color breeders spay/neuter their parti offspring and shut down those lines for non-health related reasons. Also, accepting partis might help separate the few parti breeder sheep from the goats, as parti breeders would have a competitive venue in which to evaluate and prove breeding stock.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but if we go down that road, we will be come an all Parti breed very quickly since breeding mismark to mismark creates full Partis in as little as one generation.


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## spoowhisperer

cbrand said:


> Partis can be shown in UKC in a separate class from solid colored Poodles. One has to wonder if over time Parti Poodles will take on a different look sort of like what happened with the Norwitch and Norfolk Terriers. Already, Partis do not have the same overall structure and carriage as their solid AKC counterparts.
> 
> 
> Are there reputable Parti breeders? What do you mean by reputable? Parti breeders have purposely chosen to work against the written standard as put forth by the parent club, The Poodle Club of America, by breeding Poodles in disqualifying colors. This in my mind puts them into the same category as breeders who breed White GSDs or Mini Australian Shepherds. Do you mean are there Partis breeders who test their dogs and are knowledgeable about structure? Yes. However, it seems that the majority of Parti breeders know little about Poodles and are just in it to breed a popular color that sells for a higher price.


Not sure I understand, you mean throughout history, when a parti would pop up in a litter naturally, that dog would be less of a dog physically than the others in that litter? Do people feel there is no hope in healthy partis or being accepted in the show ring? What about reds? Their coats are lacking compared to the white and blacks, but isn't there hope in breeding healthy reds that meet the standards _and_ have a thick dense coat someday? No dog benefits from being in the spotlight with byb making fast money on poor creatures. Dalmatians, Cocker Spaniels, Chihuahuas, Goldens and on and on. Saying that, I guess I just don't understand the attitude towards partis. If they are carefully bred, like any responsible breeder would, what is the issue? 
I am not fanning flames, I really would like to be educated. I have a parti, she would not meet your expectations. Knowing what I know now about health testing and conformation, I would have been much more diligent about finding a worthy breeder. My red boy who came from a breeder who I have seen her lines in many many reds. But, he also would have lacked in meeting the standards. He was my heart dog though...and...dang, stinging tears again.
My new siver beige mini, I feel is my best breed dog. I desired a _correct_ dog, and so far, I feel he is. There is a joy in knowing that, but boy oh boy, I love ALL of my dogs
So my rambling point is, why not have partis? Can they not be bred with hope of having a healthy dog that also meets the standards?


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## tintlet

drag me out of lurkmode....lol!! I just need to say a bit about mismarks. a true mismark is not a parti carrier. I think in theory it is possible to keep breeding heavy mismarks to heavy mismarks and eventually getting a dog with white up the legs, chest, etc. But it won't happen in one generation. 

With Chubby Checkers, his grandfather side is all solids. his sire was a parti carrier, along with his mother. I'm sure there were partis that no-one admitted existed. or or cream/white partis were bred as solids. 

In my few years in partis (7)I have seen more partis with good coats than bad coats. the fronts are generally set back under the ribs, sweet personalities. the worst things I've noticed are low head carriage, low tail sets, deep set saggy eyes, and lack of refinement. 
After being accepted in UKC, the quality has improved vastly!! The standards have made the most improvement. I have mixed feeling about them ever going to AKC Champion status.

I don't know if I will ever live long enough to produce the quality parti of my dreams. each generation is better, but still a long way to travel.


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## CharismaticMillie

Just out of curiosity, can someone provide an illustration or picture of a dog with good carriage next to a dog with bad carriage?


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## murieics

This is completely off-topic from what the OP was looking for as far as if there are resonsible parti breeders or not, but does anyone know if there was a specific reason behind the dogs being solid colors?

It seems to me that there might have been a reason, in regards to hunting, that would have made it more favorable to have a solid colored dog instead of a parti colored dog, and thus, it eventually became part of the standard. Any hunting and poodle history buffs out there care to clarify if that might be the case?

If that was the case, it might be that there was originally nothing wrong with parti colored dogs (so they weren't any less of a dog when in the same litter with solid dog), just differently-colored.


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## cbrand

tintlet said:


> With Chubby Checkers, his grandfather side is all solids. his sire was a parti carrier, along with his mother. I'm sure there were partis that no-one admitted existed. or or cream/white partis were bred as solids.


Where is the Parti gene coming from? I don't see any Partis listed behind him. What I do see are known mismarked dogs (his dam and sire) out of lines that produced mismarks (Roland).


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## tintlet

we figure Shalamazar was a parti carrier


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## cbrand

murieics said:


> This is completely off-topic from what the OP was looking for as far as if there are resonsible parti breeders or not, but does anyone know if there was a specific reason behind the dogs being solid colors?


It could have had to do with purity. Parti poodles may have been suspected of having a Spaniel parent.

It could have had to do with health since white patterning in some breeds leads to deafness (not true in Poodles but they may not have known that then).

It may have had to do with putting quality before color. A Parti is by flashier than a solid. If you were beginning a breed and writing the standard would you want the emphasis to be on flashy color or structure and movement? Example: in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, the Blenhiems and Tris seem to win consistently over the Rubies. 

Note that in other breeds, certain colors are disqualifying: White GSD, White Boxers, Brown Schnauzers etc


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## HOTW

Parti's were seen in the Vulcan line in fact she refused to consider them a fault and would not cull the puppies. She kept Parti's that came out of her breedings and I highly suspect bred them since there have been occurances of Parti's cropping up with Vulcan in the background. Nunsoe kennels also threw Parti's wayback and I have seen Parti's myself since the 80's when I began grooming. Those 80's dogs were from solid breedingss and most of the owners paid very little for them as the breeders did not want it known their dog s had thrown the parti gene.

In Germany there have always been Partis Poodles they are called Harlequins and have their own standard. Mario De Fante imported a pair of Parti Poodles in t he 80's or 90's but not sure from where those dogs were gorgeous and met the standard. 

Th ePartis' used to be called Truffle dogs and knowing how the English and French get along this may well eb part of the reason the Parti's were omitted from the standard(don';t jump I have british parents so its tongue in cheek here) no one really knows why the solid is th eonly acceptable. In many breeds it is a throw back to a common ancester they would rather forget so they prefer to cull the puppies as a show of recessive genes.

I own a Parti myself with the hope of breeding her with an emphasis on helath tempermentconformation with colour a secondary issue. I would love to see both solid and colours in future generations in one litter.This is her at 9 weeks she is 14 now and I need to get a new pic she is much leggier now!


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## tintlet

I have no doubt that there have been mixes in the past( springers, OES, etc). There's the theory that Afghan Hounds were introduced to the silvers and red/apricot lines. Pretty heads..icky coats.



One thing I could never figure is that Color headed Collies can show, but Color headed shelties can not


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## HOTW

The difference is they are 2 seprate breeds that used to be pretty different from one another and the standards were written with present colours at the time in mind. Only recently have hte two begun to so resemble each other. IMO coat os such denseness that does not shed well is detrimental on the shetland isles!


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## tintlet

HOTW, I think the Collies and Shelties look more different each year..lol would the whiter coats not shed as well?


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## cbrand

HOTW said:


> I own a Parti myself with the hope of breeding her with an emphasis on helath tempermentconformation with colour a secondary issue. I would love to see both solid and colours in future generations in one litter.This is her at 9 weeks she is 14 now and I need to get a new pic she is much leggier now!


But why not just work within the standard and breed solids?


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## faerie

cbrand said:


> Define gorgeous. People see flashy color, but they often miss the poor breed type underneath.


maybe that it was a male (I have a female), but he appeared to be really solid sturdy looking dog. it wasn't about his coloring (i ran over there because i saw a poodle!). i spoke to the owner and asked if the dog came from tintlet's kennel because i heard of them on this forum.

whenever i see any standard poodle i'm all over them. and i vend at 2 markets a week and i always greet every dog regardless of breed that i can unless i'm with a customer. (besides making money, i love markets because i get to play with dogs ... so does my daughter).


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## roxy25

tintlet said:


> drag me out of lurkmode....lol!! I just need to say a bit about mismarks. a true mismark is not a parti carrier. I think in theory it is possible to keep breeding heavy mismarks to heavy mismarks and eventually getting a dog with white up the legs, chest, etc. But it won't happen in one generation.


I agree it will take many generations 

They did this with gsd and now its a new "breed" in UKC called panda shepherds

Phenom Shepherds - Home

I think its a combination of breeding mismarks and having some parti carriers. 
One of my mentors hates partis so much. something in his line popped up and he was pissed that "people" do not tell others about their mismark puppies or parti carriers.

As for afghan hound bred in to get brindles I believe this but not for the reds. I was told what could have been added to get reds in poodles ( its shocking lol)

Its easier to breed out mismarks than to bred mismarks to mismarks to get partis ( similar stuff went down with my cats we did not like the white at all)


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## HOTW

cbrand said:


> But why not just work within the standard and breed solids?


Because I feel it was wrong to write out the Parti's. Not too many years ago the stud book for the Basenjis was reopened to admit new blood and in doing so they had to change the standard and accept brindles because most of the dogs being brought in were brindle. There is the same issue in France with the Brittany, which accepts more colours than theAKC in the standard. We could also discuss the 4th Belgian Shepherd breed that was ignored for years int he US and is now being recognized as a "real" breed. The FCI recognizes the 4 varieties as one breed with the different coats being the dividing factor. Just because a breed club writes a standard does not mean it is true to the breed as a whole. How many different sizes have been elmiinated in certain breeds (th ePomeranian is one) in favour of the popular image? There are more than a few breeds that are now seperated but at one time were just named differently due to coat (Briard & Beauceron, Bouviers had severla variations-wiped out by the World Wars so now only one exists) Just because there is a standard does not mean it is the right one.


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## cbrand

HOTW said:


> Just because there is a standard does not mean it is the right one.


How do you know that the current standard is not right? Why not start out working with the established standard so that you can gain knowledge and lay down a solid base of experience in the breed? You jumped directly to the fringes of the breed.


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## Purple Poodle

I have found only a handful of Multicolored breeders who I would buy from. There are reputable one you just have to dig throw all of the piles BYB's to find them. 

I have a Parti Standard & Phantom Toy. My Standard is from a very shady breeder (she was a gift to me by my friend who bought the dog from the "breeder") who has now fallen off the face of the earth after people found out about their misgivings.

Shar-Peis are in the same boat as they will have bi-color puppies pop up in litters. They have for years but since its not on the standard they were culled from breeding. 

lol I'm trying to be polite but everything I have tried to write sounds...not polite.

I think the Multicolors will end up being separated by color like the American Cocker Spaniels are in the AKC.


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## wishpoo

I love parti-poodle look  Actually more so than any solid : ))) There is something whimsical and happy about that image : ))) 

If some breeds were introduced in the past - that can also be a case for solids and us not knowing it as a fact. 


I think that recognizing a parti as a separate variety and allowing it into the AKC ring would do nothing but good for the breed as a whole, since than both solids and parti would be bred by reputable breeders and as such subjected to health testing and confirmation improvement. : ))))

Why not stick with solids - well, I guess we can ask that for any breed that comes as a solid and multi :noidea: : )))


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## cbrand

wishpoo said:


> I think that recognizing a parti as a separate variety and allowing it into the AKC ring would do nothing but good for the breed as a whole, since than both solids and parti would be bred by reputable breeders and as such subjected to health testing and confirmation improvement. : ))))


Good God! Then we would have 6 varieties! We'd be like the Dachshunds!



> Why not stick with solids - well, I guess we can ask that for any breed that comes as a solid and multi :noidea: : )))


So should White Boxers and White GSDs be OK? How about Long haired Labs? Mini Aussies and Mini Huskys? What about Cream Poodles with liver pigment? At what point do you start deviating from the Standard so much that it becomes meaningless?


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## wishpoo

Hmmmm... To be honest, I do not know anything about other breeds mentioned and why those particular sizes or colors are not "standard" so I can not even comment about them  But, I never heard of mini Aussie or mini Husky occurring naturally in a litter though and, as you mentioned before, pure white coloration in some breeds can be connected with a deafness and such. I do not see correlation between those examples and parti spoo per se. 

I only know that parti was always present in the original spoo population (at least of what can be seen historically) and is still popping out, here and there, as a "mismark" even in the best planned litters and that parti coloration in spoos is not connected with any additional negative traits. As such - I really do not see the reason for complete "elimination" of parti from poodle population. 

I would not call simple color variation in a poodle "huge deviation" from the standard since they already come in so many colors and shades that are AKC standard:noidea: They can become separate variety - why not ?

Than, that separate variety can have their own standard and make it as they please LOL, as did people who made a "solid poodle standard", I guess. If they decide that liver nose is acceptable for parti-cream variety - than so be it  Not very attractive combo though LMAO 

BUT, I can see how 6 varieties can be a cumbersome proposition LOL !!! HEY - than every dog show will be almost a "poodle parade" : ))))) and that would not be such a bad thing , after all LOL ; ))))


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## Purple Poodle

cbrand said:


> Good God! Then we would have 6 varieties! We'd be like the Dachshunds!
> 
> So should White Boxers and White GSDs be OK? How about Long haired Labs? Mini Aussies and Mini Huskys? What about Cream Poodles with liver pigment? At what point do you start deviating from the Standard so much that it becomes meaningless?


The Dachshunds seam to be doing pretty well with the breed splits 

The White Boxer is not desired because the high white comes with hearing loss/deafness, eye and skin problems. So I don't see how you can compare that to a Parti.

The White German Shepherd Dog is now its own breed and in my opinion is on a much better track then American bred GSD.

Mini Aussies are not a bred down version like the Dachshund or Sptiz but a mix of breeds to make a new breed that looks like its larger counterparts. Same goes for the Mini Husky but its an actual breed called the Alaskan Klee Kai. I've never seen or herd of a longhaired Labrador. So its not really a comparison to a Parti, its a natural accruing color that does not directly affect the health of the dog.

Having poor pigment should never been an issue because it would be detrimental to all of the colors not just cream. 

Colors and coat verities are added to breeds all the time.

I admit I was never really interested in owning a poodle until I met a Parti. Now I love the breed and have two solid colored Poodles but I will always have a Multicolor.


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## jak

I think what would be hard with creating partis into their own breed... is that how would you write standards for multi colours ? Would you just accept every single colour combination ? Would a Black mis-mark be accepted ? What about pigment on a Brown and White ? Apricot and White ? etc. ... how would it be decided what is acceptable ?

Then I am sure there would be breeders breeding the 'unacceptable' colours in years to come, and we'd just end up in the same place again :smow:

Would we allow brown and white partis ? Two colours in solid poodles, that you would NEVER breed together ? Would you have phantom as a whole other breed? Seeing as they can produce solids or phantoms in litters ?

Where would the COLOUR options stop and start ?

I am in a sort of predicament in NZ here...

A woman, who I am in contact with. Imported a black and white parti bitch as her foundation here in NZ. She is only interested in Agility, Obedience and Lure Racing with her poodles.

Her standard was registered on NZKC register, and she bred her to a NZKC CH Solid coloured dog. Had a litter of all solids, blues and blacks, and the puppies were registered too.

She turned up to a poodle show with her bitch, I am not sure if she had entered or not... but the president of the poodle club, and her "gang" tore this woman to shreds, and saw her dogs and litters de-registered, and put on the "obedience register" otherwise known as the mutt register.. basically for any dog unable to be registered on the NZKC register.

So, this woman has tried to get her dogs re-registered... with no luck sadly. NZKC don't want to hear about it, and the poodle club(s) have alienated her. 

All she wants is her dogs re-registered... and I have offered to help her, but I don't want to get offside with the poodle people here in NZ, but I feel for this woman, who is dedicated to the breed, and does more health testing than some other breeders here.

But what to do ?

Lobby for complete re-registration ?

Maybe for re-registration, but all to be endorsed as "Not to be shown -Lifetime" 

Allow them to be bred to NZKC registered solid dogs or not ?

If so, can any solid coloured puppies be shown ?



Ugh, it's so complicated, I don't know what to do ....


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## TheSpottedPoodle

I like to Parti  I like that no one parti is the same. Being in the Grooming Competition world it seems everyone has a black poo. Well I have a hard time seeing black dogs to scissor unless it is excellent lighting which most times it is not. That and the fact that I like to have something different. I did luck up with my Poo. He has a nice expression, pretty eyes, a freakin awesome coat, and I've been told a pretty decent front. He did not come from a breeder per se- just another groomer who happened to have a litter of St Parti Poos. I do not have any intention of breeding or showing him. I have seen some pics of Champion partis in the UKC and I don't know how they could finish- I'm not a poodle expert but I there are some ugly poodles with Ch or Grand Ch in front of their name in the UKC so I kinda don't have alot of respect for the UKC. It seems anything can finish with them. If AKC were to accept them, the quality would go way up. There's no way some of those dogs would ever finish in the AKC. That being said, Gloria's Tintlet poodles are a world apart. I do believe hers would finish in a skinny minute and she has some beautiful dogs. The grooming on her dogs is also outstanding (which is another problem I have with UKC). Her dogs look like Champion show dogs. When I am ready for my next parti I will definitely be getting in touch with her.


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## Aidan

I like the look of parti poodles..but I agree that they shouldn't be bred. My parti was originally from a shady breeder...I got her as an adult from Vega's breeder who decided to rehome her. She was spayed right away.

I love her dearly..wonderful temperment and a wonderful pet but I know she has her flaws..and I absolutely cannot stand her coat! It's very soft.


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## roxy25

Purple Poodle said:


> The Dachshunds seam to be doing pretty well with the breed splits
> 
> The White Boxer is not desired because the high white comes with hearing loss/deafness, eye and skin problems. So I don't see how you can compare that to a Parti.
> 
> The White German Shepherd Dog is now its own breed and in my opinion is on a much better track then American bred GSD.
> 
> Mini Aussies are not a bred down version like the Dachshund or Sptiz but a mix of breeds to make a new breed that looks like its larger counterparts. Same goes for the Mini Husky but its an actual breed called the Alaskan Klee Kai. I've never seen or herd of a longhaired Labrador. So its not really a comparison to a Parti, its a natural accruing color that does not directly affect the health of the dog.
> 
> Having poor pigment should never been an issue because it would be detrimental to all of the colors not just cream.
> 
> Colors and coat verities are added to breeds all the time.
> 
> I admit I was never really interested in owning a poodle until I met a Parti. Now I love the breed and have two solid colored Poodles but I will always have a Multicolor.



Even tho I am not in love with partis ( I like the sables that look like solid poodles with the different colored ears lol) 

I think parti's should be accepted in AKC as a separate class , just how they have it in UKC. I see no harm in it.

I am all for colors that where historically documented .

White GSD looks FAR better then the akc show GSD's They use to say the white GSD had bad temperaments ..... Gsd's come in a lot of colors . There was one BLUE CH GSD winning at local shows then someone got mad and they went to the parent club about changing the standard. I am sure it was not one person who was mad about it but a group so this is why standards are changed and made up.

In general not talking about the poodle standard but many breeds, the standard has actually ruined the breed....... but its what these people " think" how the dog should look lol 

I think color is the last thing people should be getting their panties in a bunch about when it comes to dogs ( not unless the color causes some health issues) I am not saying let dogs come in any color but if the dogs came in that color way back in the day it should be in the standard and not written out because a group of people decided they don't like the color. ( I take this to heart because of my own life experiences with people hating on the color of my skin) 

There are a lot of breeds that come in variety of colors but you don't see them because , they are being bred out sadly I just love how beagles all look the same tri color LOL even though the standard say any hound color ... ( sarcasm lol)


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## tintlet

Thank you for the nice compliments on our Tintlet dogs. But to tell ya the truth, our dogs are the same background as most of the others. we've done some improvements to out-crossing with solids, but still years away from the goal. I might not live long enough...lol


I need to write more, but leaving early AM for dog shows. Show Sec for United Poodles Breeds Assoc all breed Obed and Rally. Folks, you don't need to have a trained dog to HELP at shows


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## Retrojukebox

I am responsible. 
I have parti's in my litters as well.
I'm not registered with CKC/AKC. 
I am doing this to better the breed, whether the color of the coat is dual-colored or solid I still believe they should be well taken care of, and time and energy put into each one.


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## jak

Retrojukebox said:


> I am responsible.
> I have parti's in my litters as well.
> I'm not registered with CKC/AKC.
> I am doing this to better the breed, whether the color of the coat is dual-colored or solid I still believe they should be well taken care of, and time and energy put into each one.


Just wondering how you can be doing this to better the breed, when any future offspring cannot then be registered to AKC, and you would not be able to breed to any quality AKC/CKC studs ?


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## Retrojukebox

Through much careful selection, and I know my lines.
I am not looking for a challenge, but thanks for giving me something to do before bed.


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## Retrojukebox

Don't like it, don't talk to me. Simple. You do not know who I am outside of the forums.


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## Retrojukebox

roxy25 said:


> Even tho I am not in love with partis ( I like the sables that look like solid poodles with the different colored ears lol)
> 
> I think parti's should be accepted in AKC as a separate class , just how they have it in UKC. I see no harm in it.
> 
> I am all for colors that where historically documented .
> 
> White GSD looks FAR better then the akc show GSD's They use to say the white GSD had bad temperaments ..... Gsd's come in a lot of colors . There was one BLUE CH GSD winning at local shows then someone got mad and they went to the parent club about changing the standard. I am sure it was not one person who was mad about it but a group so this is why standards are changed and made up.
> 
> In general not talking about the poodle standard but many breeds, the standard has actually ruined the breed....... but its what these people " think" how the dog should look lol
> 
> I think color is the last thing people should be getting their panties in a bunch about when it comes to dogs ( not unless the color causes some health issues) I am not saying let dogs come in any color but if the dogs came in that color way back in the day it should be in the standard and not written out because a group of people decided they don't like the color. ( I take this to heart because of my own life experiences with people hating on the color of my skin)
> 
> There are a lot of breeds that come in variety of colors but you don't see them because , they are being bred out sadly I just love how beagles all look the same tri color LOL even though the standard say any hound color ... ( sarcasm lol)


Parti's should be able to be registered, I agree 100%! Then I would of had registered dogs.


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## wishpoo

They can be registered in the USA. I suppose you must be form NZ , or such :rolffleyes:


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## Dogsinstyle

Parti's should be able to be registered, I agree 100%! Then I would of had registered dogs. 

???????????
You would have registered dogs if you had bought your poodles from a breeder who does register their dogs.
Retrojukebox, I see you are quite young, and have gotten poor information.
You might do well to either do more research online, or in book form.
Parti's can be registered in all countries, except NZ.
I don't want to start a food fight, but suggest you spend more time learning about the breed you are "improving".

Note- This is not a place to come and make wild claims, they will pick your bones clean here.
Carole


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## Liz

As the OP, I feel obligated to jump in a say something, but to be honest, you exceeded my knowledge rather quickly. I'm always happy to learn, so thank you for the intriguing conversation!

And Tintlet - you're not too far away. I'd love to meet you and your pack!


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## Fluffyspoos

I'm going to resist saying something too...


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## jak

Fluffyspoos said:


> I'm going to resist saying something too...


.... the temptation .......


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## cbrand

Retrojukebox said:


> Through much careful selection, and I know my lines.
> I am not looking for a challenge, but thanks for giving me something to do before bed.


No, I'd like to hear about what you are doing to improve the breed. Structurally, what did your bitch bring to the table? What did you hope to fix by using the stud dog you chose? 

What are your lines? I'd love to see them. Can you give me a link to them on Poodle Pedigree (if they are not in there, it is easy to add them). As noted, Parti poodles can be registered with AKC. Are you saying that your dam and sire are not AKC registered? Why is that?


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## Keithsomething

...Retro I just have to ask why are you posting and saying that you're a responsible parti breeder when you're selling these puppies and breeding these dogs?

Puppies?


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## cbrand

Keithsomething said:


> ...Retro I just have to ask why are you posting and saying that you're a responsible parti breeder when you're selling these puppies and breeding these dogs?
> 
> Puppies?


Mini and Toy breeding? Why? Also, were your dam and sire Optigen tested? If not, these puppies could be prcd-PRA affected and they WILL GO BLIND.


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## plumcrazy

cbrand said:


> Mini and Toy breeding? Why? Also, were your dam and sire Optigen tested? If not, these puppies could be prcd-PRA affected and they WILL GO BLIND.


See post number 9 for the answer to your question...

http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/9596-hello.html


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## cbrand

No Optigen testing!?!?!?! prcd-PRA is a serious problem in Minis and Toys. This condition, which causes genetic juvenile blindness, decimated the Toy and Mini populations in this country in the 80s and 90s. Testing for prcd-PRA has been around since the early 2000s. It is a simple cheek swab that will tell a breeder whether or not her breeding stock carries the gene. If your puppies inherited a gene from each of their parents, they will go blind, usually starting around age 5. As a breeder, you are morally obligated to both the puppies and your buyers to have these current puppies tested. 

OptiGen - PRA Test - Poodles


As far as your vet not knowing. :fish: Get a new vet. This points out the inherent fallacy of depending on vets to provide correct, breed specific information. People who are going to take it upon themselves to breed need to educate themselves about Poodles by being involved with the fancy (e.g. your local Poodle club) and by reading up on all breed specific information available. I have found a number of Internet sites to be very helpful in this:

Poodle Club of America
Versatility in Poodles
Poodle Support Group listserv
the variety of Poodle specific performance listservs like Poodle Obedience

And this site.... Poodle Forum! I think we do a pretty good job of educating folks, even when they don't want to hear the message!


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## Keithsomething

cbrand said:


> And this site.... Poodle Forum! I think we do a pretty good job of educating folks, even when they don't want to hear the message!


:clap2:

I agree 100% when we aren't squabbling amongst ourselves its such an amazing educational tool for someone looking at the breed!!!

now, I think the comparison between Retro and Tintlet demonstrates what IS a responsible parti breeder ((i.e. Gloria at Tintlet)) and what is NOT a responsible parti breeder


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## tintlet

Were back from the UKC shows..whew...what a long weekend.

Just wanted to comment that I have shown in AKC for many years before breeding any Partis. CBrand made the comment that you need to start with "normal" colors and learn about them before you start with something different.
For many years I was a 4H leader. One of my pigeon friends said "you need to build a house before you paint it" A pretty paint job won't hold up for poor construction. 

My children started with SOLID colored animals. ie:white Rex rabbits, which eventually did get color added <VBG>, black game bantams, white call ducks, etc. We helped at bird/rabbit shows, getting to know the good breeders, etc. when it was time to get breeding stock, they trusted us with quality birds/bunnies. 

We did make mistakes, buying from wrong people, trusting the wrong ones. It's so much easier with bunnies and birds because you can eat the mistakes...<BG>


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## wishpoo

> It's so much easier with bunnies and birds because you can eat the mistakes...<BG>


OMG - that is just too funny LMAO !!!!!

I really love your dogs and if I ever decide to have a parti , you would be my one and only "stop" :hello:

PS: Any photos from a show : ))))) ???? !!!!!! That would be such a treat :elefant:


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## tintlet

wishapoo, no show photos, we just took puppies for socialization and travel..this was a 'working" show for me. UPBA( United Poodle Breeds Assoc) put on the Obed/Rally events for the weekend.


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## wishpoo

Oh, OK out:

Hope you had fun and that puppies had a blast


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## Feralpudel

tintlet said:


> wishapoo, no show photos, we just took puppies for socialization and travel..this was a 'working" show for me. UPBA( United Poodle Breeds Assoc) put on the Obed/Rally events for the weekend.


...and offered spectacular ribbons to the winners, from what I heard from one of them. 

Sorry to drift off topic, but this is a happier one.  And to bring it *back* on topic, this is how good breeders spend their weekends: being involved in dog events and giving back to the sport.


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## BigDog

a wonderful pet but I know she has her flaws..and I absolutely cannot stand her coat! It's very soft.[/QUOTE said:


> What is wrong with a soft coat? Asking because I really don't know =)


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## Feralpudel

BigDog said:


> What is wrong with a soft coat? Asking because I really don't know =)


Poodles are supposed to have harsh, crisp coats.


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## cbrand

BigDog said:


> What is wrong with a soft coat? Asking because I really don't know =)


They are hard to scissor, they don't repel water as well and they mat like the dickens!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Some thoughts:

1) Recommendations for responsible breeders.... "responsible" is really subjective, make a list of all of those traits that define a responsible breeder... for you. Then make a list of the traits you are interested in in your future poodle... THEN ask... and hopefully someone can direct you to breeders who meet those charactoristics.

2) Parti's didn't just miraculously appear by some genetic mutation. Their bloodlines can be tracked back for just as many generations as those of solid color poodles. Obviously not every poodle in that pedigree was a parti.... we aren't talking about a different species or breed... we are talking about the carrying and expression of a recessive gene. Deny it as people may, parti genes (both the gene for mismark-irish spotting-- and the gene for piebald) have been around and mentioned since before our breed standard was written. Historically, many breeder's who produced partis... especially the breeders who had big kennels or show dogs, "disappeared" any pups with mismarks/partis. That's sad... our breed standard has cost a lot of dogs their lives. Yet, by what we are seeing here on this post, no one seems to know the reason why. Was there a health issue correlated with the different coloration? Was it just a simple case of snobbery and elitism at the time the standard was written? Who wrote the original standards? I'm sure they were actively involved with poodles... did they have mismarks/partis? Did their stiffest competition? Hmmmmm....

Breed standards are written by human beings.. they are not written in stone. Many, many breeds have had changes made in the standards.

3) Our modern parti's... many people are attracted to flashy colors/patterns. A handful of breeder's were too. Unfortunately, it became quickly apparent that there was a big demand from pet owners for these flashy dogs. Suppy and demand.. need (want) feeds greed....

There has been a lot of mass production of partis (that sounds cold hearted and it was intended to... ) by people who are out for a quick buck. Health testing not done or ignored, poodles with health issues who were still kept active in breeding programs, tremendous amount of inbreeding to help "develop" those flashy patterns, threats made to people who would like to openly share their health issues. I was told recently that one of the larger breeder's of parti's here in the USA trys to recruit new breeders by showing them her W2 forms... in excess of $100,000 annually out of the uteri of her bitches.... that does not promote responsible breeding. Unfortunately, these lines are some of the "foundation" lines for the USA partis.

4)Critical thinking here folks about developing a separate classification for partis:

What about the size of the gene pool? Is this going to be healthy to perpetuate?

It's really easy to make leaps and jumps and... "we should do that" because on an instant it sounds like a great idea, but what about the long term implications?

5) Structure in parti's... yes, there are now many generations of partis having been bred to parti's but again, parti's come from the same genetics as other poodles. There are good and bad in both parti's and solids and also what one person prefers as good, another may find atrocious. Many people are familiar with JC Pioneers Kaiser, a lovely SOLID silver boy who has done the Westminster thing and has been a Crufts invitee on several occaions.... Kaiser is out of parti lines. Certainly an exception, not the rule but... a parti crossed to a solid who doesn't carry recessive color pattern genes will produce a litter of solids (who do carry the recessive pattern genes).

6) Health issues in parti's--groan! Most of you have read enough of my posts to realize that this is a huge issue for me... one I personally find to be of far more importance than conformation titles. If you have a breed with a tendency for your dogs to drop dead at a young age, to be afflicted with all sorts of heart breaking ailments, an ego satisfied with championship wins, is in most cases, very poor balm for a broken heart. Of course, if you are breeding for money and you do produce great offspring with sweet temperaments and their owners just have to have another like dear old "Muffy" I guess you can just chalk disregard for health issues up to planned obsolescence for financial rewards in dog breeding.

Ok, seriously... I have spent years tracking heatlh issues in poodles. Health issues in parti lines are many, many times more prevalent than in the traditional solid color lines. Because of the bias towards solid colors, and the intense motivation to quickly develop the parti lines, health was not considered a priority.

Sebaceous adenitis, Addison's, Autoimmune Hemolytic Anemia, hip dysplasia, bloat, day blindness run rampant. Owners don't know to register their heatlh issues with PHR... and breeders don't tell them. I truly have been told of owners having been actually threatened by breeders if they told anyone.

I was told by a parti breeder in New York less than a year ago that at a meeting with a group of parti breeders they all decided that they weren't going to test for SA. The reasons:
1) pain to the dog (SA biopsies are uncomfortable, but dogs do not perceive pain the same way humans do... many poodles do not acknowledge or if they do, do anything more than a momentary flinch as a biopsy is being taken.... whoever is perpetuatly the pain cause by biopsy needs to find a new vet.. their's either doesn't know what they are doing OR... the person is looking for an excuse not to biopsy!)
2) It can cause the hair to grow back a different color in spots that have been biopsied (on poodles who change colors as they mature, biopsy spots tend to initially grow back in the same color as the puppy coat--silvers/blues = black)
3) Waste of money as SA biopsies are not very reliable.

The person telling me this is breeding a stud dog with a five generation pedigree containing several SA affected dogs........ There is not a lot of uniqueness in Parti pedigrees..... In other words.. froma fianancial standpoint, it is very much to this breeder's advantage to NOT biopsy her adults. She may get a result she doesn't like. It's a lot easier to justify not testing than it is to try to explain why you bred a dog who was affected!

Having said all of this, there are responsible breeder's of parti's out there. They are few and far between. IF I were getting a parti, I would use extreme caution in regards to the contract and how health issues are dealt with. I, personally, wouldn't deal with a parti breeder who doesn't post health issues to PHR for dogs they have owned.

I would use extreme caution, take my time, then say my prayers! I would try to find someone in the parti world who is familiar with health issues and the different breeder's bloodlines.


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## Apres Argent

My Parti out of ALL solid breeding was no less dog than her AKC CH sib! In fact in some ways she was better. :alberteinstein:


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## Apres Argent

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Some thoughts:
> 
> Great post, not just for Multi's but all Poodles! Thank you!


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## Jacknic

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> 1) pain to the dog (SA biopsies are uncomfortable, but dogs do not perceive pain the same way humans do... many poodles do not acknowledge or if they do, do anything more than a momentary flinch as a biopsy is being taken.... whoever is perpetuatly the pain cause by biopsy needs to find a new vet.. their's either doesn't know what they are doing OR... the person is looking for an excuse not to biopsy!)
> QUOTE]
> 
> I would like to know where you find a vet that can do an SA biopsy with only a flinch from the dog. It is not proper procedure to do a biopsy with a local anesthetic--it can give a false reading. I was told this by a vet who belongs to my AKC poodle club, he also agreed it was not an accurate test even when it is done properly. My breeding dogs have had every other test, all recorded with OFA. Funny thing is my SOLID female, AKC champion sired with a pedigree full of AKC champions, from a very reputable breeder had a sibling diagnosed with full blown case of SA. That along with her small size and bad coat gave me enough reason to place her as a pet before she was ever tested or bred.The breeder had sold her to me with a show contract at a pet price with the promise of puppies back, I did not have a problem with her and she did not have a problem with me placing her. There are many unethical poodle breeders out there, solid and parti, giving someone the claim to being a reputable breeder should be based on how the breeder treats PEOPLE, how they treat their dogs and how they treat their breed, sorry do not think it should be based on color or the lack of one test.


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## cbrand

Jacknic said:


> Yaddaluvpoodles said:
> 
> 
> 
> There are many unethical poodle breeders out there, solid and parti, giving someone the claim to being a reputable breeder should be based on how the breeder treats PEOPLE, how they treat their dogs and how they treat their breed, sorry do not think it should be based on color or the lack of one test.
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of one test? Anyone who has seen (or smelled) a Poodle with SA would probably agree that this one test is pretty important. If a breeder does not test her breeding stock then she could unwittingly be passing SA along in the gene pool. SA punches pickup Equivocals and Subclinicals that the naked eye can not see. Do they hurt the dog? Yes. Are they important, even critical? Yes.
> 
> As far as responsible goes....... I would never label someone a responsible breeder just because they were nice to people. There are plenty of "nice" folks who breed Poodles who don't have a clue about the breed.
Click to expand...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

cbrand said:


> Jacknic said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lack of one test? Anyone who has seen (or smelled) a Poodle with SA would probably agree that this one test is pretty important. If a breeder does not test her breeding stock then she could unwittingly be passing SA along in the gene pool. SA punches pickup Equivocals and Subclinicals that the naked eye can not see. Do they hurt the dog? Yes. Are they important, even critical? Yes.
> 
> As far as responsible goes....... I would never label someone a responsible breeder just because they were nice to people. There are plenty of "nice" folks who breed Poodles who don't have a clue about the breed.
> 
> 
> 
> And there are plenty of rude, self righteous breeders who may know lots about the breed, who are not people I would want to deal with. If they cannot be pleasant on a day to day basis, imagine having to deal with them if one bought a pup from them and had problems. YIKES!!!
> 
> There ARE breeders out there who are nice AND have a clue what they are talking about.
> 
> I do agree with you regarding the S/A skin punch. After much pressure from two breeder friends who have bred S/A pups, we will be doing the punch, but because it is only a snapshot in time, and because it is such a gross test, we have opted to do it every other year rather than yearly. Looking forward to the day there is a DNA test then it will all be made simple, and there will be no excuses or worry.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jacknic

So my original question was not answered, where are these vets, the earlier quote said the test does not need to hurt and now Carol you say it does. I DO NOT have a problem spending the money on a test, I believe the amount of test I have done proves that, my problem is with the accuracy of the test. NO, I have not seen or smelled a poodle with SA, I have not had that problem. But when you can do a test one day and get a positive result and do the test again in two weeks and get a negative result I don't think that is worth putting my dog thru the pain to have another OFA certificate saying I do this health test. I said that a breeder should be graded on how they "TREAT" people, I did not say anything about being "NICE". Nice is not always the answer, and a plesant speaking voice on the phone is not what I am talking about. But if you have a breeder, who is unethical, claims they do test and they don't, has NO way of backing up what they claim, doesn't answer phone calls, doesn't have answers to your questions when they claim to know it all, tells you to "bug off" when you call about a health issue your puppy is having or treats a person as if they are stupid when a simple answer would do. If they treat people like this how are they REALLY treating their dogs. There are many facets to being a reputable breeder, sorry I still beleive if you are not ETHICAL with PEOPLE and treat them right, you will not be ETHICAL with the decisions you make about your dogs.


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## Dogsinstyle

I think S.A. is beginning to rear it's head a great deal in both parti's and reds.
There is a whole line from Te-Awa's Justcallme Karlee which have S.A., many not showing up until 4 years.. I have heard of about 25-30 in the last 6 months. It would behove any parti breeder to delay breeding, AND do the S.A. biopsy on at least the dogs that have Karlee in the ped.
I also learned that Elegant Miss Jana did have unreported S.A., and decendants with the disease are now coming to light. This is a dog in many many red pedigrees.
95% of these cases are not on PHR, and unlikely to ever show up there.
Carole


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jacknic said:


> So my original question was not answered, where are these vets, the earlier quote said the test does not need to hurt and now Carol you say it does. I DO NOT have a problem spending the money on a test, I believe the amount of test I have done proves that, my problem is with the accuracy of the test. NO, I have not seen or smelled a poodle with SA, I have not had that problem. But when you can do a test one day and get a positive result and do the test again in two weeks and get a negative result I don't think that is worth putting my dog thru the pain to have another OFA certificate saying I do this health test. I said that a breeder should be graded on how they "TREAT" people, I did not say anything about being "NICE". Nice is not always the answer, and a plesant speaking voice on the phone is not what I am talking about. But if you have a breeder, who is unethical, claims they do test and they don't, has NO way of backing up what they claim, doesn't answer phone calls, doesn't have answers to your questions when they claim to know it all, tells you to "bug off" when you call about a health issue your puppy is having or treats a person as if they are stupid when a simple answer would do. If they treat people like this how are they REALLY treating their dogs. There are many facets to being a reputable breeder, sorry I still beleive if you are not ETHICAL with PEOPLE and treat them right, you will not be ETHICAL with the decisions you make about your dogs.


I agree. If I am going to deal with another breeder, I want it to be someone who is available, pleasant and knowledgeable. Not someone who is condescending, rude or does not answer my questions.

About the S/A test...I believe it hurts like hell until the stitches are out. There is a risk for infection in the punch sites, and we dealt with that when Holly was done. Oozing, weeping messes that had to be treated, which cost us the price of another office call and heavy duty antibiotics. Our dogs who have been tested were done while they are knocked out for their hip xray, so while they did not feel anything at the time, it drove them nuts for days after. And when you are working with Poodles of colour, the op sites grow back in the original colour the dog was as a puppy. Thinker (silver) had coal black polka dots on his back and Holly's were deep red. Great for show dogs...NOT!

I agree. It is only a snapshot of that particular area at that particular moment. I just heard of someone who had their dog done, and while awaiting the results, which came back negative, the dogs ear leather was itchy and irritated, After a scraping was done, it was determined the ear trouble was S/A. Days later, the results came back on the original test saying the dog was clear of S/A. That being said, I am doing it just to check for equivocals or sub clinicals because of the experiences of my two breeder friends.


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## cbrand

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> And there are plenty of rude, self righteous breeders who may know lots about the breed, who are not people I would want to deal with. If they cannot be pleasant on a day to day basis, imagine having to deal with them if one bought a pup from them and had problems. YIKES!!!


Is this a backhanded comment at me? I can assure you that I am kind and helpful to my owners and that I am always there for them.


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## Apres Argent

Jacnic, 
I have Poodles who will be biopsied after the first of the year. I will video tape it being done. The first biopsys I had done were stitched and done while the dog was sedated for hip x-rays. I was very unhappy with the way those first biopsy's healed. Since that time my home town Vet has done them, he does not use any topical numbing agent and the Spoo's do not even flinch! 
The fact is most Vets have not a clue about SA, I feel it is often misdiagnosed as "allergies" not rinsing shampoo well enough ect.......
SA can express once in a dogs life, others have flare ups related to stress or weather. Some lose very little coat, some lose it all and it grows back different than a normal poodle coat, some never grow coat back, and yet others after the first flare up look completely normal. A poor coat can or cannot be a sign of SA, THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE IS TO BIOPSY and if there is a family history biopsy often and consider doing a ear pina biopsy and waiting to at least 5 years old to breed. SA can express in a young Poodle under 2 years old or it can wait to rear its ugly head until the dog is 7 or 8 years old and has been bred possibly several times. If that one time expression is missed and the dog is bred then it continues to cause heartbreak down the line! I am on an SA list for all breeds, the number of people that have searched for an answer to their dogs problems for years before finally a Vet does the biopsy and sends to correct lab for the right diagnosis of SA is astounding! 
SA is often referred to as "just a cosmetic problem" that is not the case, it has a horrible smell,weekly oil baths, supplements that may or may not help, many poodles lose their life to SA. :amen: Sorry to rant but I live with Poodles with SA and would not wish this on any man or beast!


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## Liz

Hi everybody!

I am the OP, and I'm going to bring this thread back home. I recently had the pleasure of meeting Gloria, of Tintlet Standard Poodles, and highly recommend her to anyone looking for a multi-colored poodle. In fact, I also recommend her to anyone in/around NC looking for any kind of poodle. I found her to be kind with people, knowledgeable about poodles, and best of all, warm, generous, and uproariously funny; in other words, exactly the kind of person I will be happy and proud to do business with.

To answer my own question: yes, there are responsible parti breeders, and while they are not the majority, by networking with people who really care about the breed, you can find them.


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## Jacknic

Apres Argent said:


> Jacnic,
> I have Poodles who will be biopsied after the first of the year. I will video tape it being done. The first biopsys I had done were stitched and done while the dog was sedated for hip x-rays. I was very unhappy with the way those first biopsy's healed. Since that time my home town Vet has done them, he does not use any topical numbing agent and the Spoo's do not even flinch!


A.A. This is what I am talking about something that can help people and dogs! If you would video this it would be amazing, I have a very accomadating Vet who would not feel insulted to watch and learn. I have had a biopsy done just like your first ones and was also unhappy. Would not have a problem having it done like this, just do not like the invasivness of the test and the incidance of false readings.
LIZ, so glad you got to meet Gloria, she is a great person, this is what I am talking about the way a "breeder TREATS people."


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## RoyalFields

How big does a mismark have to get before it's offically labeled a party? 
Chest and belly (legs)?

(I'm not being snarky i'm just curious) ~


----------



## tintlet

Hi Liz!! It was great to meet you and Mia!!!! You are so much fun..thanks for the "Death Nuggets"..my new favorite phrase..hehehe

My daughter and I had to go to Sanford NC last weekend.
Candace Sullivan and Liz met up with us and we had a girls gab session ).
The poodle had a grand time wrestling..we drank Hypnotic Wine and laughed a lot. and talked Poodle of course.

RoyalFields: the mismark is not a parti gene. Some partis carriers do have chest spots..other don't. But in UKC, any white spot allows you to show as a Multicolor.


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## Jacknic

Gloria,
"HYPNOTIC WINE" ? Is that how you win over your puppy buyers--HAAAAAA!:aetsch:
Girls, poodles, wine, sounds like TOO MUCH FUN!!!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Jacknic,
Please don't jump to conclusions about what I may or may not have done.

I have had punch biopsies done by several different veterinarians and my poodles have always been just fine with it. I have had biopsies done with lidocaine... I now have them done without. The reason I have them done without is because the lidocaine injections can cause stinging and take longer than the biopsy. In other words, based on my personal observations of my dogs, I suspect that the lidocaine injections are more painful than the punch biopsies without the lidocaine. 

As to where I can find a vet who can do a punch biopsy with only a flinch from a dog... the answer is... just about anywhere. Most vets are quite capable of doing a 6mm punch on a poodle who is temperamentally sound with only a flinch... if they even flinch!

I have found that there are quite a few veterinarians out there who really don't know much, if anything at all about sebaceous adentitis. In the past two years, I have encountered three veterinarians (two who had graduated within the last five years), who have never heard of SA. That's scary.... guess who's diagnosing those dogs who come in with skin conditions. I have also had a veterinarian tell me that dogs had to be sedated in order to do SA biopsies (!) anyway, vets simply are not being well educated on SA or the testing procedures.

What I'm getting at here is... the veterinarian dermatopathologists here in the USA have a guideline through OFA for the procedure of SA biopsies. They allow for local anesthetic. I have attached a link to a current OFA SA application form:
https://secure.offa.org/pdf/saappbw.pdf (you can find the procedure if you scroll to the bottom of the application... complete with written approval for lidocaine)

When a skin biopsy is taken to be examined for sebaceous adenitis one of the things that is being looked at is the presence, number and condition of the sebaceous glands. Lidocaine injections do not influence that. The dermatopathologists value their reputations and their professional integrity. They are not going to approve of a local anesthetic being given if it would cause them to misread samples.

So for anyone who feels that lidocaine is helpful... yes... a local anesthetic can be given prior to SA biopsies and no, it doesn't interfere with the interpretation of the biopsies.

As for the accuracy of an SA biopsy...I think that word choice here is really critical. When I read "it is not an accurate test even when done properly", it makes me think that 100% of SA biopsy results are in accurate. But that's not the case. Genetic tests give accurate results. Nongenetic tests don't always. Hip xrays? Thyroid blood tests? Patellas? Cardiac Echos? CERFs? These are all non-genetic tests.... the same argument can be made for lack of accuracy with each of these tests. 

The only way that SA can be conclusively diagnosed is by biopsy. That is a really powerful statement. 

Biopsies are currently the only "tool" we have to diagnose SA. We can choose to use our tools... or not. It depends on where our priorities are. I normally make a conscious effort not to breeder bash and I need to apologize to the forum for using that as an example. There are a number of breeder's out there who are well aware that they are breeding poodles from lines that have a strong history of SA, but they have chosen not to test for SA. I think that potential puppy owners should be aware of the risks.

I personally don't like the term "unethical"... I use it, I've used it for years... and I'm trying to get away from it. I've finally come to realize that every breeder out there has ethics. Every breeder has priorities. Some I agree with, some I don't, but it doesn't matter because those are their priorities and ethics. When I catagorize breeder's as "ethical" or "unethical", "responsible" or "irresponsible", I do everyone involved a disservice. Breeder's don't come in black and white. Breeder's come in a full range of shades of grey. I've found that changing my perception to shades of grey, versus good/bad, gives me a more accurate viewpoint representative of a breeder's goals and priorities as well as individual circumstances.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Oops..... Sorry, I should have read through all the posts on the thread before responding.


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## tintlet

Jacknic..I knew i spelled the name wrong..it HPNOTIQ Blend of vodka, cognac, and tropical fruit juices... a girls night out drink ;-)


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## Jacknic

Tintlet, that sounds like a Girl's KNOCK your socks off NIGHT OUT!!

Yadda--I don't think you need to assume what I know and don't know, I am fully aware of the OFA procedure for SA testing, what other sites have claimed about the procedure and what vets are saying about the procedure. I am not going to get in a debate with you and give others reading this thread an excuse for not doing the SA test. The reason's I have not done the test are MY reasons and it is not because I am fearful of the results. If someone thinks they should not do a health test they should have some very serious convictions about that and if you don't, then have your breeding dogs health tested. I have spent more then a little time since you posted your reply looking for vets in Michigan that would do a skin biopsy without the use of anesthetic and have yet to find one, including Michigan State. I had one breeder on here offer help by video taping the procedure being done this way. Thank you!
OK I am going to address the OP! There are a few good resposible parti breeders out there, the best way to find one is to check out the websites of the Multi Colored Poodle Club of America and the International Parit Poodle Club, both clubs have a code of ethics and have breeders who are invovled in improving the health and structure of parti poodles. This thread is the reason I decide to speak up on this forum, it seems anytime someone ask about parti poodles it is the SOLID breeders that have to give their two cents worth, and normally it is to bash the peolple that have decided that they admire the parti coloring and do not feel that these dogs need to be hid or even destroyed anymore. YES, there have been solid breeders who have had parti colored puppies, that kill them simply because of their coloring, so you want to talk UNETHICAL. I would hope that none of the breeders on this forum have particapated in this practice. I do realize that breeding dogs is a compassionate subject and that many have very strong convictions, some like to follow the norm and some are just outside the box.


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## Poodle Lover

As a breed fancier, I have to say that I love poodles of color. Apricots, Reds, Browns, Silvers - bring them on!!! These colors don't do too well in the show ring compared to the whites and blacks, but I will always have a poodle of color, just my preference. I will also someday own a parti as well and think they are drop dead gorgeous. I am especially crazy about tuxedo parties in silver and white and in black and white....so someday!!!


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## 3dogs

*slightly off topic...*

I need info on how to tell adult color on pups. I am actually asking to help a client who I oppose her breeding back yard dogs but she has taken only some of my advice. 
1st advice she took was to NOT breed her "stud" dog since he has been diagnosed with Epilepsy & is on meds AS well as has full blown Cataracts in both eyes & he is only 4. After much info given to her & gently getting her out of that avenue she is getting him neutered & eyes taken care of this coming month. So, at least I made a little headway. BUT then her family bought her another "toy" poodle with the intentions of breeding him when he was older than he is. Well the "toy" poodle at 4 months I could already tell was going to be a Mini & convinced her to not send in her AKC papers with the wrong size on them. I have asked people's advice here & other boards as to how to register a Poo based on "parentage" or by "actual size". Got mixed reviews all over the place. But when he topped 11" I told her he really should be registered as a mini because he will still grow. She took my advice & he is a solid 13" tall, in my personal opinion NOT an oversized Mini.

Her female "toy" did of course get pregnant by this boy (not even a year). For some idiotic reason people around here think that a bitch wearing a diaper will keep the male from breeding with their bitch in heat. What is up with that. This is the 2nd person who was "surprised" that their intact males would tear off the female's diaper to breed with. 

At 2 wks the pups are mismarks of black? Bitch is a blk/white Parti & Sire I just can't describe his color. I don't know if he is a Blue or a grey or silver. Right now he is so many colors that I find him very ugly. Sorry, but he is. He has silver on face & most long hair of legs, I have let his paws grow out but they are still black. He has black, silver, grey & an ugly brown mixed into his body coat but not brindle. Just such an ugly combo of colors that I have no idea what he is even registered as. Does one just wait until a bit older to know the color. Right now they are deep solid black color with pure white mismarks on neck, belly, paws & some legs. Just trying to help her the best way I can & hope to convince her to NOT breed her dogs. For some reason it falls on deaf ears around here & almost every male dog I groom is intact & most females are as well but not as many. Almost everyone is under the weird assumption that their dog is AKC registered & they Paid for the dog therefore they must breed 1 litter. Go, figure.


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## 3dogs

*you do scare.....*

I must say this board is scary. I am adopting my 1st Poodle from Poodle rescue. The dogs that I will be looking at are healthy on the outside but you scare me by what might be going on inside. I will be looking at 5 dogs 4 are minis & 1 small st./moyen/klien size female. It is a bit scary looking at the unknown. Yes, I am getting a poo as a "pet" but I am also getting one for my grooming competition's. I already have 4 pet dogs & 1 that is a retired grooming comp. dog. I thought of going to some good breeders recommended on this sight but just couldn't bring myself to buy a dog. I will risk it with a rescue dog & hope all turns out well. I am excited since the family & dogs goes this weekend to interact with the hopefuls. I am hoping that my dogs find one they like. Out of 5 choices though I am confident that we will find the right dog that melds into the pack nicely & will work for grooming competitions. I trust the judgement of the Poodle rescue just like any good breeder knows their pups personalities & can pick the right pup for an owner, I am confident with the choices that Poodle Rescue has picked out for us.

I will let you know how it turns out after this coming weekend.


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## CharismaticMillie

Does anyone know anything about Apres Argent poodles? Do they breed partis? I believe Apres Argent is a member here on the forum, so perhaps they will respond here!!  I heard good things about Apres Argent from someone I met here in St. Louis and googled the website but it appears to not have been updated in a while.


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## CharismaticMillie

Apres - got your PM  I look forward to hopefully meeting you at the Lake St. Louis show!


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## tintlet

3dogs...can you take a picture of the unusual color puppy? it could be a sable phantom

On the rescue..there are some nice dogs that end up in rescue.. Just take your time and find the right one )

and don't be afraid of this group!!!!


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## 3dogs

*I have pictures....*

Hi Tintlet/Gloria- I actually do have recent pictures just from the other day. Please ignore the whack out grooming since he has parts growing in & others that need to be scissored down but I was going for a Japanese flare & didn't quite make it. He will be 1 year in February so I know that Poodles have a fading gene & he will fade more but I just have never seen so many colors & in my opinion not pretty colors in a dog. So, I will send the photo's along & see what you can make of it. This color business is just so hard for a newbie person, not clear cut in any way.


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## Dreamer12617

cbrand said:


> Ok.... to be fair, when we are talking Partis, there are just a whole lot of badly bred dogs out there. So when we talk about difference in structure, we are really often times are talking about different levels of quality in breeding programs. I can also go out and find tons of examples of crappy solid color Poodles.
> 
> However, I have found that in general that, many Partis lack breed type and refinement. They are missing things like depth of chest and tuck up, length of neck, tail set and carriage, and the coats often seem very soft.
> 
> Since Partis are being shown separately from Solids, it stands to reason that their types may diverge. Below is a picture of a UKC Parti. Based on carriage alone, I doubt this dog would have finished in AKC. Since it is a UKC Champion however, I am guessing that it will be bred and thus its characteristics will be propagated on. I use the Norwich and Norfolk Terriers as an example because they used to be the same breed but when their clubs divided based on prick ear vs. drop ear, the breeds became very different.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes and no. This is where I think the Parti people get into some revisionist history. I think most of the Partis today are not descended from ancient lines, but rather modern creations derived from breeding mismarked dog to mismarked dogs. Take for example the dog UKC CH Classic Koch Chubby Checkers Pedigree: UKC CH Classic Koch Chubby Checkers This full Parti is the offspring of two mismarked dogs from solid lines. By purposely breeding mismark to mismark they got Parti. In fact, I traced some of the most common Parti lines: Kitsue, Te-awa, Sunset, Sisco back and most of their Parti lines don't start until the early '90s. In many cases, they were created by close familial linebreeding, obviously in an attempt to double up on known mismarks.
> 
> A few other related musings. Given the ease with which parti colors and mismarks pop up, it might be less pernicious to the gene pool if they were accepted. As it is, solid color breeders spay/neuter their parti offspring and shut down those lines for non-health related reasons. Also, accepting partis might help separate the few parti breeder sheep from the goats, as parti breeders would have a competitive venue in which to evaluate and prove breeding stock.


Yes, but if we go down that road, we will be come an all Parti breed very quickly since breeding mismark to mismark creates full Partis in as little as one generation.
[/QUOTE]
I would like to know where you got your information on UKC CH. Classickoch Chubby Checkers, as far as his parentage?? 
I am his breeder and neither of his parents were mismarks, they were solid!!!!


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## Liz

Old thread


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## PeggyTheParti

Dreamer12617 said:


> I would like to know where you got your information on UKC CH. Classickoch Chubby Checkers, as far as his parentage??
> I am his breeder and neither of his parents were mismarks, they were solid!!!!


Welcome, @Dreamer12617! Thanks for popping into this thread to clarify.

The member you’re replying to hasn’t been back to Poodle Forum in over a decade, so you’re unlikely to get a response. Head on over to Member Introductions to introduce yourself and your poodle(s).


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