# 24 MONTHS!!!



## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I took Jeffrey Steven to the vet last week. He's right around 5 months. I knew that with standard females (as well as other large breeds) the age for spaying has gone up to at least a year. I asked about neutering to see if it was the same. My mouth nearly fell off my face when the vet said the new guidelines recommend male large breeds wait 24 MONTHS to neuter. TWO YEARS???? After I got over the shock she said that generally only breeders or people that might want to show and need to wait to see how the dog develops will wait that long. Normal owners usually make it to a year or when behaviors indicate it is time for the big snip. She said she made it to exactly 12 months with both of her big male dogs and said enough was enough.

Has anyone else heard of this? I just can't even imagine dealing with an intact male that long!


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Yes. We frequently discuss and advise this on the forum. Standard poodle growth plates don't close until between 18mos and 24mos. Some orthopedic issues and ligament injuries seem to be associated with desexing tall dogs. There are also studies that suggest that desexing may actually _increase_ fear based aggressive behaviors. And even many trainers and vet will admit that the supposed behavioral benefits of desexing are not consistent for males. Reducing marking and preventing breeding seem to be the only consistent benefits. Desexing also reduces the risks of diseases that occur in the sexual organs removed, but the likelihood of incidence of those health concerns before 24mos is very low. 

Personally I don't believe desexing should be automatic, although if an owner truly does not have the bandwidth to prevent unwanted and inappropriate breeding then they should neuter after the growth plates close. There are other options such as vasectomy and tubal ligation that allow a dog to keep it's natural hormones.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

Thanks for the info! The last time I had a male puppy was 14 years ago and he's a toy. I'm all about doing what is in the best interest of the dog so I will wait for as long as I can. Unfortunately my city has an ordinance requiring dogs to be spayed or neutered. If you choose not to you have to pay an extra $150 plus the rabies registration every year. I found that out when Ethel got her rabies shot and a letter came from Animal Control charging me because she wasn't spayed at 16 weeks! A letter from the vet explaining the latest research can delay the charge for up to 18 months. I understand the intent behind it but, honestly, people that are backyard breeding probably aren't keeping up with rabies vaccinations anyway...at least around these parts.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I wonder if your city would accept a vasectomy? They aren't widely available everywhere, but from an unwanted puppies perspective it serves the same purpose. Not trying to sway you to my stance on desexing, but as I've learned more and really thought about what desexing really entails I've started to find these types of rules frustrating. 16 weeks is ridiculous. 6mos is bad enough, but 16 weeks is an infant. I understand the need to control the unwanted pet epidemic, but I'm amazed that people don't consider what those hormones are _for_ before allowing such ordinances to pass. Frankly I would probably find myself just getting my dog's shots done in a different area and desexing when I determined it was appropriate. But I'm not in your situation, so it's all academic for me.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm going through this too. I have a minipoo so there's less issues about stress on joints and they finish growing earlier. I'm not even sure if I will neuter him or not - it depends on whether there's any issues I can't train to resolve and if neutering will fix the problem. I've never had a male before so this is all new to me.

My puppy is 12 months old and I believe he has finished or is near finishing growing his skeleton. However he's so bony and I know in the next year he will be putting on a lot of muscle as he fills in. I feel the hormones help with that as well. So far he hasn't pee marked inside although he is prodigious outside and he's not humping his sister.

He has a new hobby - sniffing and licking his spayed sister's rear end, and she enjoys the attention (groan). He chatters his lips in excitement. Because of this I went back to tethering him and discovered him having a wet dream while sleeping on the couch. I panicked and bought belly bands but he hasn't had one again, nor has he pee marked so I'm not using them. I am limiting his stiffing hobby. I know his mature hormones has kicked in now. I'm hoping that wet dream was a one time event as he matures.

So far I haven't felt the need to neuter yet. If I had to pay extra tax because my male was unaltered, I would - at least until my spoo was 2 years old. I would try to follow the current recommendations.

Keep an eye on your dog - pee marks can be simple some small drops. My dog is usually limited to rooms I'm in so I don't have to search the house - just check a few rooms. A lot of the problems are training issues.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

There was a study published just a couple of years ago that looked in-depth at the age of neutering. I have quotes the relevant (standard poodle) results here. Here is a link to a summary of the findings.



> There was a 2 percent occurrence of joint disorders in both intact males and females. In males neutered at <6 mo., there was a non-significant increase to 8 percent, and in spayed females, there was no occurrence of joint disorders. The occurrences of cancers in intact males and females were 4 and 2 percent, respectively. In males neutered at 1 year of age, the occurrence of one or more cancers rose to a significant 27 percent (_p_ <0.01), all due to the increased risk of LSA. In females, there was no significant increase in cancers with spaying. There was a 4 percent occurrence of MC, and a 2 percent occurrence of PYO in the females left intact. Just one female spayed beyond 2 years later developed UI. The suggested guideline for males, based on the occurrence of one or more cancers with neutering at 1 year, is to delay neutering until 2 years of age. Lacking a noticeable occurrence of increased joint disorders or cancers in neutered females, those wishing to neuter should decide on the appropriate age.


That is a huge increase in the chance of a male poodle getting lymphosarcoma, which has a horrible prognosis. If able, I would definitely recommend keeping any male standards intact to at least 2 years. 

This study lists many other breeds and sexes, so it's important to look at the individual dog.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

In my area, intact males and unspayed females older than 6 months are banned at all doggy daycares, boarding other than the vet, and most of the nice dog parks. Even some of the training places won't let them in certain classes.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

@DogtorDoctor 
Not sure if you're more familiar with the study beyond the summary. I don't see any data listed for males neutered after 24 months. Does the rate go down to become insignificant, or does neutering cause an increased cancer rate, period?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

All the training facilities around me do allow intact males and unspayed females. All the competition dog sports that I participate in and know about allow them too. One caveat is females in heat are to stay home from classes and competition when in heat.

This isn’t a problem for me because I don’t use day care or boarding and I avoid off leash dog parks because of safety issues. I have left my dogs with home sitters instead of boarding. I mention this because while there are limitations with an intact male, you may find it doesn’t affect you.

Because I compete in dog sports I do see a lot of intact males, especially those who compete in conformation.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Our tpoo Luca is intact and our spoo pup Matteo is also expected to stay intact. Our vet says the hormones produced are important for the dogs growth and health. I think of it like having teenagers at home. We wouldn't spay or neuter our teenagers just because they are a hassle. We would correct their behaviour and attitude and look forward to them growing up. 😉


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## Bailey_Whiskey (Jan 18, 2021)

Whiskey is 16 months old and I plan to keep him that way as long as I can. We have to pay extra for unsterilized dog licenses here and most daycares don’t take intact males above 6 months because of “aggressive tendencies”. I was fortunate to have found one who made an exception after a few rounds of assessment. 

Marking, to us was a behavior issue and not something that will change after a surgery. In fact, many neutered males at the dog park I frequent are more aggressive and mark wayyy more often than Whiskey.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I_love_dogs said:


> In my area, intact males and unspayed females older than 6 months are banned at all doggy daycares, boarding other than the vet, and most of the nice dog parks. Even some of the training places won't let them in certain classes.


Around here it's 7 months. 



Misteline said:


> Frankly I would probably find myself just getting my dog's shots done in a different area


I'm not sure where you are located but in my area this could cause a ton of trouble. Rabies is registered through the Animal Control of whatever county you reside in. In order to get a rabies vaccine elsewhere I would need to have, in essence, a fake address. I love my dogs and will do the best for them but I'm not willing to break the law.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

EJStevenP said:


> I'm not sure where you are located but in my area this could cause a ton of trouble. Rabies is registered through the Animal Control of whatever county you reside in. In order to get a rabies vaccine elsewhere I would need to have, in essence, a fake address. I love my dogs and will do the best for them but I'm not willing to break the law.


Apologies if I seemed to imply you should, that was not my intention. Based on what you've posted there's no reason for you to do so. Like I said for me the whole idea is fairly academic, everywhere I have lived things are done differently and I'm not actually in a position where need to worry about it. I was thinking about if I was one of those you say have intact dogs, but are unlikely to be willing to pay the high fee and I should have said as much. (I'm usually doing other things while I type my responses and sometimes forget that on the internet one has to be explicit.) Rather than just forgo the rabies shot, based on what you're saying it seems simple to go somewhere else even if as you say they had to give a false address and break the law. In reality if I had to live in such a place and chose to get a puppy I can and would just pay the fee, I can afford it and it's not that big an annual expense vs every other expense that comes with the dog.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

Oh gosh no worries! It's all so weird and arbitrary. Like you I was horrified when Animal Control wanted Ethel spayed at 16 weeks. I came up with lots of scathing responses to the letter I received before I thought I should probably just have the vet send a letter.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> @DogtorDoctor
> Not sure if you're more familiar with the study beyond the summary. I don't see any data listed for males neutered after 24 months. Does the rate go down to become insignificant, or does neutering cause an increased cancer rate, period?


Unfortunately, this study does have limitations, like the one you pointed out. They did not have enough data for later ages of neutering, as by that point you're more likely to get people leaving their dogs intact for life. Their actual data doesn't even have much for dogs neutered at age two, as the recommendation is based off the results from males neutered at 1 year old having statistically significant increased rates of lymphosarcoma from intact dogs.

From what I recall when I first read the article, this is a retrospective study using the teaching hospital's data, which further skews things. As a tertiary referral center, the case selection is heavily biased towards dogs belonging to owners who would and can afford to seek advanced care.

With males, I feel much more comfortable always advocating for a later neuter. With females, it is extremely owner-dependent in my personal opinion. There is a litter of Belgian Malinois mixed with presumably Chow Chow because the Chow jumped the fence when the Mal was in heat. The owners were trying to do right by their dog and let her mature before spaying, but here we are.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

It's tough with females. I don't blame anyone who neuters at whatever age they feel is best, because we all have our own path, but I have a special pocket of sympathy for those with female dogs. Things like tubal ligation aren't offered everywhere and even if it was, it's still a tough decision when to do it. I truly don't know what I would do if I had a girl, but I'm happy to say after doing some checking there are vets who do tubals and vasectomies near me. I would probably opt for that as soon as it was safe, because I definitely don't want or need a litter of puppies of any kind.


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## oodlypoodly (Oct 5, 2021)

Skylar said:


> He has a new hobby - sniffing and licking his spayed sister's rear end, and she enjoys the attention (groan). He chatters his lips in excitement.


My minipoo is doing this too, teeth chattering and all, but he’s only six months!!! So weird. He started the weird licking at five months, and being home with my parents over the holidays means this behaviour triggered their dog onto heat a month early so it’s tether time for him too. 

I’m a first time (solo) dog owner and my family’s only previously had females so all new to me. I’m glad the time to wait has gotten longer since it’s somewhat of a sad procedure to remove their hormones (if too early). I’ve read such conflicting information online on whether it actually does anything to change behaviours, despite my friends and family seemingly pressuring me to neuter earlier for that very reason (although ironically my parents, whose dog was triggered to go into heat, agree with me on a later neuter, and those that don’t have dogs or haven’t raised a dog themselves are the pressure-ers ). Of course, I recognize that mini and standard neuter time is different, and I was just surfing this thread out of interest. 

PS to OP - great pup name! How do you call him?


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

oodlypoodly said:


> My minipoo is doing this too, teeth chattering and all, but he’s only six months!!! So weird. He started the weird licking at five months, and being home with my parents over the holidays means this behaviour triggered their dog onto heat a month early so it’s tether time for him too.
> 
> I’m a first time (solo) dog owner and my family’s only previously had females so all new to me. I’m glad the time to wait has gotten longer since it’s somewhat of a sad procedure to remove their hormones (if too early). I’ve read such conflicting information online on whether it actually does anything to change behaviours, despite my friends and family seemingly pressuring me to neuter earlier for that very reason (although ironically my parents, whose dog was triggered to go into heat, agree with me on a later neuter, and those that don’t have dogs or haven’t raised a dog themselves are the pressure-ers ). Of course, I recognize that mini and standard neuter time is different, and I was just surfing this thread out of interest.
> 
> PS to OP - great pup name! How do you call him?


The less people actually know about a situation and the more divorced they are from the consequences the more militant they will often be about their stance. It's easy to push someone to do something irreversible based on "what everyone knows" or "everyone else does it" when you have no actual dog in the race or are unwilling to educate yourself.

I might not like paediatric desexing, but ultimately I at least limit myself to discouraging it on the forum and would never badger someone either way. I try to recognize that sometimes there truly is no better option. Good on you for making up your own mind based on your personal ability and willingness to be responsible.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

DogtorDoctor said:


> Unfortunately, this study does have limitations, like the one you pointed out. They did not have enough data for later ages of neutering, as by that point you're more likely to get people leaving their dogs intact for life. Their actual data doesn't even have much for dogs neutered at age two, as the recommendation is based off the results from males neutered at 1 year old having statistically significant increased rates of lymphosarcoma from intact dogs.
> 
> From what I recall when I first read the article, this is a retrospective study using the teaching hospital's data, which further skews things. As a tertiary referral center, the case selection is heavily biased towards dogs belonging to owners who would and can afford to seek advanced care.
> 
> With males, I feel much more comfortable always advocating for a later neuter. With females, it is extremely owner-dependent in my personal opinion. There is a litter of Belgian Malinois mixed with presumably Chow Chow because the Chow jumped the fence when the Mal was in heat. The owners were trying to do right by their dog and let her mature before spaying, but here we are.


This study is lacking in many areas. Not sure it's worth much at all. 
Yes. It does suggest that you would be best to not neuter your dog ever. 
Is it your experience that nearly one in three neutered dogs die from cancer? If this is really true, neutering may have become part of a pet health care "racket". Tons of money in treating pets with cancer.
I will have to do more research and seriously consider a vasectomy for Elroy.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> This study is lacking in many areas. Not sure it's worth much at all.
> Yes. It does suggest that you would be best to not neuter your dog ever.
> Is it your experience that nearly one in three neutered dogs die from cancer? If this is really true, neutering may have become part of a pet health care "racket". Tons of money in treating pets with cancer.
> I will have to do more research and seriously consider a vasectomy for Elroy.


My honest experience is that most dogs die of cancer. I diagnose lymphoma at least once every couple of months. Lots of sarcomas, lately, too, including hemangiosarcoma. Most dogs I see are altered, so not the best sample population. However, I also had two pyos just before New Year's, lots of mammary cancer in intact females, and testicular cancer in one 13 YO mini poodle in the past 1-2 months.

I am very pro "keep your animal intact if you have the personal responsibility to do so." The big push in the US was to combat pet overpopulation and the large numbers of homeless pets being euthanized, which bled over into purebreds as well (nevermind breeders trying to protect their lines). From my understanding, this isn't as much of a consideration for many countries in Europe.

I will say that this was not a ploy to get money on the veterinary side of things. Spays and neuters are usually the cheapest surgeries we do. If anything, the accidental litters would bring us more money just for first round of shots with exams.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

A correlation between cancer and removing the sex organs without any sort of hormone replacement makes logical sense in my entirely unqualified opinion. Just like removal of the sex organs resulting in a reduction in cancer in those specific organs and the related organs makes logical sense to me, can't get cancer in something that isn't there. The issue is that removing the sex organs isn't the same as removing a different organ that doesn't produce hormones for the whole body (such as a mastectomy to reduce the risk of breast cancer) and there don't seem to be enough studies on the long term effects. I may be wrong, but it seems to me desexing became part of the cultural zeitgeist so quickly here as an answer to a societal problem without enough people asking what the long term side effects were. No questions asked means no answers sought or given.

Normally I'm very happy to trust vets to have done their research. It's a difficult profession and I have a lot of respect for them. But the reasoning I've gotten from vets for why I should paediatric neuter always starts with the social issue goes on to making claims about behavioral benefits that don't seem to have much backing them and then ends weakly with the assurance doing so prevents cancer in the organs they remove. If I seem to resist they talk over me, and if I mention studies suggesting it may be better to wait the response isn't that there are better studies refuting those, just that the studies suggesting waiting aren't big enough. There's no point arguing with them because thankfully they can't force me to neuter my dog, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

If I wasn't obligated to neuter Elroy, I think it's quite possible I wouldn't. No intentional breeding is in his future. I do believe a vasectomy would fulfill the requirement, and my vet said if he ever got testicular cancer, an early diagnosis and testical removal is much simpler than treatment of other cancers that could be instigated by neutering.
Sorry about the "racket" comment. I didn't really mean it. Just blabbering on🤐😞.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> If I wasn't obligated to neuter Elroy, I think it's quite possible I wouldn't. No intentional breeding is in his future. I do believe a vasectomy would fulfill the requirement, and my vet said if he ever got testicular cancer, an early diagnosis and testical removal is much simpler than treatment of other cancers that could be instigated by neutering.
> Sorry about the "racket" comment. I didn't really mean it. Just blabbering on🤐😞.


Definitely no hard feelings! I tried to communicate my tone with the smiley face, but we all know how text is.  There are definitely some things and pricing that I don't agree with at my own clinic, so I for sure get where you're coming from. 

I think a vasectomy is a great secondary choice and I wish more people considered it (and more vets offered it!). Much like ovary sparing spays for females. I do think the tide is starting to turn, though. Our clinic won't touch a pediatric alteration (except for feral TNR cats). Other than that, we let owners make the choice. I've spayed more females over 1 than below it, at this point. Change is still slow, though, and there are definitely still vets out there with "adopt don't shop" as their driving motivation.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

EJStevenP said:


> Oh gosh no worries! It's all so weird and arbitrary. Like you I was horrified when Animal Control wanted Ethel spayed at 16 weeks. I came up with lots of scathing responses to the letter I received before I thought I should probably just have the vet send a letter.


I thought that there had to be some miscommunication if this is a supposed legal requirement, but it's true in a few areas. I now know where not to move. 

Mandatory Spay/Neuter Laws | American Veterinary Medical Association (avma.org)

*Mandatory Spay/Neuter Laws*
Updated June 2019

This is a summary of state laws addressing spay and neuter of animals. While a number of states have proposed mandatory spay/neuter laws, there are currently no state laws requiring _all_ pet owners to sterilize their animals. 

Rhode Island, however, has adopted legislation which requires all cats to be spayed or neutered unless (1) the caretaker has a breeding permit, (2) the cat has been adopted and the caretakers will be sterilizing the cat pursuant to an agreement with the adopting agency, or (3) due to the animal's health, a veterinarian states that it would be inappropriate.

_The inability of state legislatures to pass mandatory spay/neuter legislation has not precluded city and other local governments from proposing and adopting mandatory spay/neuter ordinances._

On Feb. 26, 2008, Los Angeles County signed one of the nation's toughest laws on pet sterilization, requiring most dogs and cats to be spayed or neutered by the time they are 4 months old. The ordinance is aimed at reducing and eventually eliminating the thousands of euthanizations conducted in Los Angeles' animal shelters every year. The ordinance does exempt certain animals, including those that have competed in shows or sporting competitions, guide dogs, animals used by police agencies, and those belonging to professional breeders. The average pet owner, however, must have his or her dog or cat spayed or neutered by the time it reaches 4 months of age (or as late as 6 months with a letter from a veterinarian). Owners with older unneutered pets and newcomers to the city with animals will also be required to comply with the ordinance.

In Los Angeles, first-time offenders will receive information on subsidized sterilization services and be given an additional 60 days to comply. If they still fail to comply they could be fined $100 and ordered to serve eight hours of community service. A subsequent offense could result in a $500 fine or 40 hours of community service. The ordinance brings the nation's second-largest city in line with about a dozen of its neighbors that have enacted similar laws.

Those owners and individuals with breeder, animal handler, or fancier permits, and pets qualifying for a temporary or permanent medical exemption will not be required to comply with the ordinance. Violation of the ordinance will be a misdemeanor. The ordinance will take effect on April 1, 2010, and will be reviewed annually to measure effectiveness.

While only a handful of cities have passed mandatory spay/neuter laws for pet owners, state statutes which require the sterilization of pound or shelter animals prior to release are relatively common. In addition, many city ordinances and state statutes require higher licensing fees for intact animals and mandatory sterilization for dangerous or vicious dogs.
Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Nevada, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, Utah and West Virginia all require sterilization or a promise to sterilize to adopt an animal from a pound, animal shelter, or pet animal rescue. Some of these states require a monetary deposit to ensure future sterilization, and most of the states provide for certain exceptions.

AVMA has adopted spay/neuter policies relating to population control and the age of the animal at the time of the procedure. These policies are provided below:

*Policy Positions*
Age of animal

Population control

*Source: Staff research, AVMA Division of State Advocacy
Contact: State Policy Analyst, AVMA Division of State Advocacy*


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

And just catching up with this part

*Abstract*
Dog management in the United States has evolved considerably over the last 40 years. This review analyzes available data from the last 30 to 40 years to identify national and local trends. In 1973, The Humane Society of the US (The HSUS) estimated that about 13.5 million animals (64 dogs and cats per 1000 people) were euthanized in the US (about 20% of the pet population) and about 25% of the dog population was still roaming the streets. Intake and euthanasia numbers (national and state level) declined rapidly in the 1970s due to a number of factors, including the implementation of shelter sterilization policies, changes in sterilization practices by private veterinarians and the passage of local ordinances implementing differential licensing fees for intact and sterilized pets. By the mid-1980s, shelter intake had declined by about 50% (The HSUS estimated 7.6–10 million animals euthanized in 1985). Data collected by PetPoint over the past eight years indicate that adoptions increased in the last decade and may have become an additional driver affecting recent euthanasia declines across the US. We suspect that sterilizations, now part of the standard veterinary care, and the level of control of pet dogs exercised by pet owners (roaming dogs are now mostly absent in many US communities) played an important part in the cultural shift in the US, in which a larger proportion of families now regard their pet dogs as “family members”.

Dog Population & Dog Sheltering Trends in the United States of America (nih.gov)



Sterilizing dogs wasn't always common practice in the United States; throughout much of the 20th century, few dogs were neutered. That changed during the 1970s, when animal welfare groups began to advocate for sterilization as a means for reducing unplanned litters and curbing the euthanization of unwanted animals

Spay/neuter convention gives way to nuance - News - VIN


I know that you, Tom, don't for one second think that anyone devoted to the care of animals would deliberately set on a course of action that would cause little but misery for the animals and people in their care. 
Cancers are on the rise, due to some factors like these unintentional consequences, and as much because the amazing care now available to our beloved companions allows them to live long enough to develop cancers.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Here's another surprise on how one business created a new "culture" for a whole segment of society.

_“They’re den animals. It allows them to just relax and feel safe. It’s somewhere for them to go,” Curtin said. “Wild wolves hung out in caves and dens, it’s just in them.”

She’s referring to what’s typically called a “denning instinct.”

It’s the idea that dogs seek out confined spaces and make dens out of them, like their wolf ancestors. The denning instinct pops up all over. Popular trainers on TV and online talk about it all the time. It’s in the very first line of The Humane Society’s dog crating page in the U.S.

But the strange thing is, even though I kept running into it, I could never nail down where the denning instinct idea comes from, what study, whose research?

*Dog vs. wolf*
Carlo Siracusa, a veterinarian and behaviorist at the University of Pennsylvania, hesitated to answer when I asked him.

He told me it’s true wolves have a denning instinct. But the idea that dogs have one too? He says that comes from pretty flawed science — old observational studies.

“The majority of them were done in the 70s or earlier. They studied dogs and wolves in captivity, starting from the assumption that because they are closely related species and one is the ancestor of the other, they were in some way comparable,” he said.

Researchers noticed something big. There was constant aggressive, competition, it appeared to be the defining behavior in both in wolves and in dogs.

“Aggression [seemed to be] part of their regular way of communicating, so the whole dominance thing came out,” he said.

If you’ve ever heard a dog expert talk about alpha dogs or pack leader or whatever, this is where that comes from.

This competitive aggression, was the common thread that tied dogs and wolves together in the minds of some researchers and trainers. They figured if dogs and wolves shared this core trait— they probably shared a bunch of other behaviors. Denning — being one of them.

But all this aggression wasn’t actually natural. Siracusa says it was just the result of the stress of captivity.

“It’s like looking at the show ‘Big Brother’ to study human behavior,” Siracusa said.
_


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_I also talked to a big crate maker, Midwest Homes For Pets, to track when sales started taking off. They actually started as a metal works company.

Tara Whitehead, a spokesperson, says they also used to make wire rubbish bins for trash burning. Then In the 50s, the company caught wind some guy in Detroit was buying these bins in bulk, using them to keep dogs.

“I’m not sure what his industry was,” she said. “I don’t know if he was you know, a breeder, or rescue, or just a guy that had a lot of dogs.”

The company tweaked the design of their bin, made it into a crate. The Sears catalogue picked it up in the 60s. By the mid 80s they were selling so many they created a separate crate-focused business._


Is a dog crate really a den? How this very American practice took off — WHYY


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

My older poodle, Neely, will turn 10 in February. He's intact and it has been a total non-issue. He was intended to be a stud dog, but developed Addison's. I knew I would never breed him at that point and thought that I'd end up neutering him, but on second thought, didn't want to give him added stress of anesthesia. He was never a marker or a humper (at least of people), and I reasoned that he might do better with his Addison's if he did NOT lose any more hormones. Indeed, he has gone on to earn utility titles from three organizations and has never had a subsequent Addison's crisis. Then again, I'm very regimented with his medication routine, so that doesn't hurt.

My new guy, Hobbes, is also intact and has just received his CHIC number but hasn't attracted the attention of any bitch owners. He turned two in September. He is not a marker or humper (of people) either, but Neely will mount him when they're turned out to play together.

I hold the opinion that you need to make it clear to the dogs that continued good behavior will let them keep the family jewels and you enforce that instruction with appropriate but meaningful corrections--corrections that I actually haven't had to give. Then again, maybe I've just been lucky in the dogs that have come into my life.

Oh ... regarding being taxed for intact dogs. The only impact that has in my state (Pennsylvania) and county is an additional $5 or $10 for the annual dog license. Hobbes has a lifetime license, which I found a good bargain once I qualified for the significant "senior discount."


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## TuttoBene (Apr 23, 2021)

Racing greyhounds are not neutered or spayed before their racing careers are over. Greyhounds get cancer all the time and die. It’s because they live long for a large dog breed 12-16 years.

As for neutering ; know your poodle.

We will opt to neuter because we are a social family involved in many dog group activities and found that the incidences of reaction from neutered dogs to our intact dog is increasing ( even with his “best friend” from puppyhood). There have been anecdotal stories from friends and dog club members who have waited two years and more and said that they would not do it again for various reasons. In one case it was to extend the life expectancy of a Berner but it didn’t.( Her intact Berner died sooner than her neutered Berner. ) All this to say is that there are studies, opinions and anecdotal stories about other dogs but your dog will do what your dog will do because your dog is not a statistic.

You get to decide what best for you, your family, your community and dog.


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