# To Dock or Not to Dock THAT is the question



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I haven’t read the article (yet) and I used to prefer docked tails but since having Beckie (blue, below) whose tail isn’t docked, I prefer the natural look, especially if the tail is straight. I have to admit I’m not crazy about gay tails.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Dechi said:


> I haven’t read the article (yet) and I used to prefer docked tails but since having Beckie (blue, below) whose tail isn’t docked, I prefer the natural look, especially if the tail is straight. I have to admit I’m not crazy about gay tails.


"Gay" as in happy?! Ginger has a happy tail.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

buddyrose said:


> "Gay" as in happy?! Ginger has a happy tail.


The term "Gay tail" means that the tail curves back over the dog's back instead of being straight up. In some breeds it simply means that the tail is carried much higher than preferred.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

I didn’t particularly like this article, but I do think that tail docking is a good topic to talk about on PoodleForum.

Some facts: The Poodle Club of America is in charge of the breed standard you find on AKC’s website. Any change to that breed standard would be made by the PCA, not the AKC. The PCA is an invite-only and very exclusive club. I do not know if we have any members active here on PF.

Poodles with intact tails can participate in all AKC performance activities. In conformation, where dogs are being compared to the breed standard, the issue of tail docking is entrenched. I do not expect the PCA to change the breed standard anytime in the next 25 years or longer.

However, if you prefer an intact tail and want to vote with your dollars you can find them. Overall quality of undocked poodles in the US is generally a step down (yes, I said it) because the highest quality dogs are being bred to breed standard. The UKC is making inroads here, and there has been a bit of a shift making finding undocked poodles a tiny bit easier. Plus, many people don’t care about overall quality, and may even laugh at such a statement.

In my dreams I fly to Europe and buy a dwarf-sized silver poodle with an intact tail from health-tested champion parents of excellent temperaments. See you in my dreams!


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## Green Bean (Apr 23, 2020)

Personally i love the look of a long dock, but i don't think it's a necessary procedure for a poodle. I also don't think it's particularly harmful, but removing bones for cosmetic reasons is kinda hard to justify when you word it like that! I saw in the article some people thought it made them swim faster? Hmm. 

I understand fighting and protection dogs got a short dock and short cropped ears in order to rid the dog of vulnerable grabbing material from their adversaries, in which case it's definitely to the dogs advantage and safety. As for injuries greyhounds you often see with damaged tails- and labs tails damage everything else around them! Poodles don't seem (to me) to have the same tails as either, they're neither fragile nor inconvenient table sweeping weapons. 

Does look good though. And at the right length doesn't affect the ability to use it for communication, or affect their balance beyond a pet dogs needs. 

Just my two cents!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Galen has a ridiculously gay tail; it curls like a Spitz. He's certainly not going to clear coffee tables with it. I was a bit horrified watching it develop when he was younger. Now, though, I think it's very cute. Just a big mound of floof on his back. Most people don't even realize he has a natural tail; the just think it's a very puffy pompom.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

If it were your tail, would you dock it?


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Johanna said:


> The term "Gay tail" means that the tail curves back over the dog's back instead of being straight up. In some breeds it simply means that the tail is carried much higher than preferred.


I was joking. Typing, even to people you know well, doesn't always convey humor. 😁

I think most people are used to seeing poodles with their tails docked and not curved like Ginger's. But she is such a happy little puppy & that tail wags adorably so it doesn't bother me. 

My first toy, Casey, was a show dog before I got him at 4 years old. Ginger is a pet but I admit I was a bit surprised when I realized her tail wasn't docked. I didn't notice it the first day. But I like it. 

I was curious to hear other people's experiences or thoughts. Thank you.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Newport said:


> I didn’t particularly like this article, but I do think that tail docking is a good topic to talk about on PoodleForum.
> 
> Some facts: The Poodle Club of America is in charge of the breed standard you find on AKC’s website. Any change to that breed standard would be made by the PCA, not the AKC. The PCA is an invite-only and very exclusive club. I do not know if we have any members active here on PF.
> 
> ...


Ginger's mom comes from a lineage of show dogs. Not sure about the sire.

I hope your dream comes true. 😊

Edited to ask: what is a dwarf-sized poodle?


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Green Bean said:


> Personally i love the look of a long dock, but i don't think it's a necessary procedure for a poodle. I also don't think it's particularly harmful, but removing bones for cosmetic reasons is kinda hard to justify when you word it like that! I saw in the article some people thought it made them swim faster? Hmm.
> 
> I understand fighting and protection dogs got a short dock and short cropped ears in order to rid the dog of vulnerable grabbing material from their adversaries, in which case it's definitely to the dogs advantage and safety. As for injuries greyhounds you often see with damaged tails- and labs tails damage everything else around them! Poodles don't seem (to me) to have the same tails as either, they're neither fragile nor inconvenient table sweeping weapons.
> 
> ...


Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Definitely worth way more than $0.02 to me!


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

cowpony said:


> Galen has a ridiculously gay tail; it curls like a Spitz. He's certainly not going to clear coffee tables with it. I was a bit horrified watching it develop when he was younger. Now, though, I think it's very cute. Just a big mound of floof on his back. Most people don't even realize he has a natural tail; the just think it's a very puffy pompom.


That's probably why it took me a day to notice Ginger's tail. It was just a big fluffy floof on her back.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Dianaleez said:


> If it were your tail, would you dock it?


That's an interesting question because people get "cosmetic" surgery to make their looks more attractive to others. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder & surgery is performed with anesthetics.

I don't like the idea that their tail is docked and they feel that pain even if it's not long lasting. Another surgery where not everyone uses an anesthetic is for a newborn circumcision. That is also painful.

I can see both points of view for all of it.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

buddyrose said:


> That's an interesting question because people get "cosmetic" surgery to make their looks more attractive to others. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder & surgery is performed with anesthetics.
> 
> I don't like the idea that their tail is docked and they feel that pain even if it's not long lasting. Another surgery where not everyone uses an anesthetic is for a newborn circumcision. That is also painful.
> 
> I can see both points of view for all of it.


Honestly a brief moment of minor pain doesn't really bother me. I've seen videos. They go straight to sleep like nothing happened. I'm much more concerned over a dog having proper balance and communicating with other dogs.

A long dock on a poodle with correct tail conformation doesn't cause issue for these things. I'm also happy with a natural tail if it isn't a tightly curled gay tail. I actually would have more issue with a tight curl than I do with docking because this prevents a dog from using their tail normally for balance, and they always appear to carry it high which appears dominant to other dogs, causing miscommunication. Tails carried over the back are not a worry so long as they can put them down when communicating certain emotions.

I feel people get overly obsessed with acute things and ignore the chronic ones. Dogs often hate getting anal glands expressed, nails clipped, ears plucked, etc. We do them anyway. To me a proper tail docking on a puppy is not a concern.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> Honestly a brief moment of minor pain doesn't really bother me. I've seen videos. They go straight to sleep like nothing happened. I'm much more concerned over a dog having proper balance and communicating with other dogs.
> 
> A long dock on a poodle with correct tail conformation doesn't cause issue for these things. I'm also happy with a natural tail if it isn't a tightly curled gay tail. I actually would have more issue with a tight curl than I do with docking because this prevents a dog from using their tail normally for balance, and they always appear to carry it high which appears dominant to other dogs, causing miscommunication. Tails carried over the back are not a worry so long as they can put them down when communicating certain emotions.
> 
> I feel people get overly obsessed with acute things and ignore the chronic ones. Dogs often hate getting anal glands expressed, nails clipped, ears plucked, etc. We do them anyway. To me a proper tail docking on a puppy is not a concern.


I'm in the same camp.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

If I had a tail, yes it would have it removed. If my kid was born with a tail, or much more likely, extra fingers or toes, I would have them removed as well. It’s not the same kind of choice to me.

I do not like the look of short docks on poodles. I would prefer natural ears and tails on all dogs, but I don’t feel strongly enough about it to limit myself when choosing a breeder to only those that are natural. Ear cropping on the other hand I do view as cruel and would not buy from someone who cropped ears, which is obviously not a poodle issue.


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## LittleCloud (Apr 21, 2021)

Here in Eastern-Europe I hardly see any poodles with docked tails, so it feels normal to me. It’s viewed as a cruel thing done for human vanity by many people I’ve talked to here. I personally don’t see a benefit in it, it just seems like a potential health risk for the puppy, I feel the same way about circumcisions on human babies unless it’s medically necessary. 

Nano has his natural tail and I like it very much, he does some really light wags sometimes, where he just shakes the tip a little. It’s very expressive and sweet and I don’t think I could see that if he was docked.

That being said I don’t feel that strongly about people who prefer docking, as I don’t think it really hurts the overall quality of the dogs life.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I adore the look of a natural tail. I'm not unhappy with the length of Evelyn's tail, but looking at it now that he's mostly done growing I think he would have had a very nice gentle curve. When he bit at the tip as a puppy I couldn't help but worry that the tip bothered him somehow because he was somewhat obsessive about and it wasn't the nibbling he does when he's itchy and he seemed more frustrated than other dogs I've met who chased their tail. He goes after it considerably less now, which is comforting.

I'm probably against tail docking for poodles in general since there is the slim possibility of long term damage even when they're cut to the right length and there isn't really a benefit for most dogs. Obviously the ultra short poodle tails aren't correct in any case so they don't bear mentioning. I don't see the point in vilifying those who dock properly, but if the world was mine it wouldn't be required as part of the show standard. If a straighter tail truly is preferable aesthetically my (completely unqualified) gut feeling is that requiring docking is both cheating and backing the breed into a corner. If a straight tail is truly meant to be then it should be possible to breed for it without compromising the dog, and if that isn't possible then perhaps the tail curves for a reason. 

All of that being said, my next poodle will probably be also docked unless I can find a responsible breeder who doesn't dock who I mesh with. The smaller the pool of options the harder ticking all the boxes gets. Temperament and health were always more important to me than tails, but after getting Evelyn I've come to realize that outside of a natural tail I prefer dogs with good overall conformation. If that's a priority then my best chance is probably going to be a breeder who shows because most of the well built poodles I've met with natural tails are from sport lines and I can't handle too much drive. There's a beautiful brown poodle with a natural tail who goes to one of the parks I frequent who I can't help but envy.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I havent explored the issue indepth but I am very relieved that I dont have to. I might be going into showing so I am glad to live in a country where you dont dock so I dont have to choose between quality or docking. 

Im also happy that if I later go into breeding then I dont have to deal with docking.


But I feel that since docking is not genetic. Meaning that allowing undocked tails in the showring does not change the genetics we are rewarding. I really feel that show judges and breed standards in countries where docking is allowed should relax their preference for docked tails. Let breeders make the decisions themselves and stop punishing undocked dogs. Its not going to change the quality of the breed.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Raindrops said:


> Honestly a brief moment of minor pain doesn't really bother me. I've seen videos. They go straight to sleep like nothing happened. I'm much more concerned over a dog having proper balance and communicating with other dogs.
> 
> A long dock on a poodle with correct tail conformation doesn't cause issue for these things. I'm also happy with a natural tail if it isn't a tightly curled gay tail. I actually would have more issue with a tight curl than I do with docking because this prevents a dog from using their tail normally for balance, and they always appear to carry it high which appears dominant to other dogs, causing miscommunication. Tails carried over the back are not a worry so long as they can put them down when communicating certain emotions.
> 
> I feel people get overly obsessed with acute things and ignore the chronic ones. Dogs often hate getting anal glands expressed, nails clipped, ears plucked, etc. We do them anyway. To me a proper tail docking on a puppy is not a concern.


You made a lot of good points. And yes it's a couple of seconds of pain and then it's over and probably forgotten. Personally, for a pet, I don't think an animal has to be put through that. In other countries, like the UK, they consider it unnecessary mutilation. There is a part of me that agrees with that. I think in this country we have an unhealthy obsession with perfection when it comes to looks for humans and animals. I think that's not very healthy.

Having said that I wouldn't look down on anybody who chose to do it. I'm just speaking in general and sharing thoughts and enjoying everyone sharing their's.


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

Our poodles have always been rescues, so they came with whatever tails they came with.  It wasn't until our 4th poodle that we had one with a natural tail, and I have to say, I just loved watching it do its tail thing! I guess it was considered a gay tail, curving over her back. It was so expressive and really enhanced my understanding of how she was feeling and reacting. It was fascinating to watch Sweetie's tail curl when she was happy or very interested in something or unfurl as she relaxed or to do both, as in this video clip. Here is a clip of her tail in action, for your viewing pleasure.


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## PhoenixPines (May 28, 2021)

Dianaleez said:


> If it were your tail, would you dock it?


Actually, infants are sometimes born with a vestigial tail, and yes most parents choose to have it removed before they leave the hospital.
More often than not extra fingers and toes (polydactyl) are removed from humans also, and is often done when the babies are newborn.
I have poodles with natural tails and tails that are docked to the standard.
Personally, if they are pets I have no issues with the long tail, however, those that will work as service dogs, particularly with individuals with wheelchairs, I prefer docked. Decreases the chance of injury.

When done by a vet that knows what they are doing the puppy fusses for a moment then they don't seem worse for the wear.
They cry more when the dewclaws are removed.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Pat Mc said:


> Our poodles have always been rescues, so they came with whatever tails they came with.  It wasn't until our 4th poodle that we had one with a natural tail, and I have to say, I just loved watching it do its tail thing! I guess it was considered a gay tail, curving over her back. It was so expressive and really enhanced my understanding of how she was feeling and reacting. It was fascinating to watch Sweetie's tail curl when she was happy or very interested in something or unfurl as she relaxed or to do both, as in this video clip. Here is a clip of her tail in action, for your viewing pleasure.


Thank you for sharing Sweetie's video. I love her name and her tail.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

PhoenixPines said:


> Actually, infants are sometimes born with a vestigial tail, and yes most parents choose to have it removed before they leave the hospital.
> More often than not extra fingers and toes (polydactyl) are removed from humans also, and is often done when the babies are newborn.
> I have poodles with natural tails and tails that are docked to the standard.
> Personally, if they are pets I have no issues with the long tail, however, those that will work as service dogs, particularly with individuals with wheelchairs, I prefer docked. Decreases the chance of injury.
> ...


I would think the curled tail would cause less issues than a straight version. My first poodle was docked. Happy poodles are beautiful: docked tail, gay tail, straight tail. I never saw it before I got Ginger. I love watching her play with that fluffy tail wagging. Casey's docked tail also wagged. I loved Casey.


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## Sylvia K (Feb 4, 2021)

Docking any dog's tail is prohibited where I live and even if it wasn't I wouldn't dock the tail of any dog I had unless it was medically necessary. I've never had a poodle that has a perfectly straight tail. My current youngster, now almost one year old, was born with a tail that curved over his back. It has now straightened a lot but will probably remain a little curved. It looks truly beautiful to me and I love the look of his gorgeous fluffy tail. Both toys that I have had also had slightly curved tails, one more so than the other. Both were also quite lovely to look at. All three dogs expressed themselves so beautifully via their tails. I feel pretty uncomfortable with the idea that an organisation can decide mutilation is necessary to fit a human created breed standard. To me it seems a bit like setting a standard for humans that requires the removal of a body part eg a thumb or an ear etc. I have never been involved with showing and that may have an impact on how I feel. I do occasionally see dogs with docked tails here, although rarely. We had to get a dogs tail docked many years ago because the tail had been badly damaged in an accident, but that is an entirely different matter. It was quite confusing looking at the dog afterwards because she was a real heinz variety dog with long curly coat and was black. In low light it was often very difficult to know which end of the dog you were looking at . She had a wonderful nature regardless of the loss of her tail, and when really excited her whole body wiggled like crazy. I certainly don't have a qualified opinion but I do hope that eventually all docking will disappear and we will all be able to appreciate our dogs for the wonderful creatures they are in their natural state. Having said that, I know that some breeds can sustain horrible injuries to their tails as someone else pointed out. They can also cause a fair bit of discomfort if they wag too hard against us!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

An alternate viewpoint that I've seen:

Natural tails in poodles alters the visual balance of the dog in a continental trim which then results in unintentional selection for dogs that are more balanced with the length of a natural tail. This, unfortunately, results in selection for very long necked dogs.

I do believe other breeds have already suffered exaggerated characteristics as a consequence of the eliminated tail or ear docking/cropping. So I do think it is a possibility.

Human parents request "unnecessary mutilation" of their children all the time. So I think it's a bit rich to be that harsh on tail docking. The fact that something is illegal in a country doesn't make that the definitive moral stance. Plenty of things are banned for erroneous reasons, and there is often little evidence for such legislation.


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## buddyrose (Jul 27, 2011)

Raindrops said:


> An alternate viewpoint that I've seen:
> ..
> Human parents request "unnecessary mutilation" of their children all the time. So I think it's a bit rich to be that harsh on tail docking. The fact that something is illegal in a country doesn't make that the definitive moral stance. Plenty of things are banned for erroneous reasons, and there is often little evidence for such legislation.


I'm not really sure what you're talking about re this: _Human parents request "unnecessary mutilation" of their children all the time._

Your next line is comparing children to animals. There is no comparison. So it's not _rich. _ It's a meaningless comparison.

When it comes to taking something natural and healthy and mutilating it, that is the evidence.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Since much of Europe no longer permits docked tails in competition, I wish PCA would at least make tail docking optional. Switzerland doesn't allow dogs with docked tails to be imported at all, not even as pets. 

I prefer an undocked tail, and this will always be one of my criteria when selecting a breeder. I loved Pogo's great sweeping arc of a tail, Snarky's adorable teapot handle tail, and now Galen's pile 'o floof curled tail. Each different, each attractive in its own way.

Ultimately for the puppy buyer I think it really depends on where one chooses to draw the line on which deviations from nature are acceptable. The way we manage dogs in general isn't natural. 

The primary reason we neuter is for ease of managing the animals. Yes, there are arguments about preventing cancer and such, but really the reason most people neuter is to prevent unwanted behavior and unwanted puppies. I'm sure my boy Galen suffered a lot more getting neutered, even with anesthesia, than he would have suffered getting docked. Was my decision ethical?

Ultimately one might make an argument that continuing to breed poodles themselves, with their mat prone non-shedding coats and their yeast prone dangling ears, is ethically dubious. Compared to the varying flared earred short coated pariah dog types or the prick earred double coated Northern dogs, poodles require an awful lot of human intervention to stay healthy and comfortable.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Well, Cowpony, you may have given the definitive post here. So what is left to say?

“In low light it was often very difficult to know which end of the dog you were looking at” Haha, priceless.

Raindrops, I have read your perspective with much interest. You have provided clear insight into another way of looking at the issue.

One thing I think we can all agree on is docking a poodle too short is a terrible thing to do. Let’s not do that!


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

@cowpony in some European countries it is actually illegal to neuter or spay unless its for a medical reason. Essentially you are not allowed to do it for the 'convenience of the person' as far as I can understand it. But I don't know how much its enforced I had a person complain to me that vets to the procedure anyway 'for the money'... 

Honestly I don't mind the non-docking and ear cropping laws but the neuter laws I feel go too far.


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

buddyrose said:


> Thank you for sharing Sweetie's video. I love her name and her tail.


Thank you for watching Sweetie's video and for appreciating her name and her tail!!! 💖Sweetie passed away 8/31/20, and I miss her every day. I am so happy to have videos of her to enjoy and to share.


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## Kait (May 6, 2021)

Personally I prefer natural tails. For me it’s a moot point though. In my corner of Canada docking is illegal, so I don’t need to worry about trying to find a good breeder who doesn’t dock to meet breed standards.


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