# Question for raw feeders ...



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm still putzing around with food! Trying to combine benefits of raw with the convenience of commercial foods.

I found these guys: Real, Raw, Organic Dog Food Supplier - Home, and have had a quote, which seems reasonable. They ask for details of the dog's age, activity level, breed, etc. and customise a formula, which I like.

They seem to do a higher proportion of ground bone than most, 30% in their beef (although I keep reading different opinions about proportions). 

I like that they are local, organic, and committed to fresh, just wonder about proportions.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If its 30% ground bone you will probably want to supplement with fresh, raw meat because that is on the high end for bone content. You want to be feeding mostly meat, some bone, some organ. It really depends on the dog, though. 10% is all that is needed nutritionally but for stool control some dogs need a little more. If 30% bone doesn't create dry, crumbly poops perhaps that amount works for your dog. Though, in general that is too much. If it does create dry, hard, crumbly poops I would go ahead and add some boneless meat. What I do is feed the smallest amount of bone possible to maintain firm (but not crumbly or rock hard) stool. The amount they need for nutrition will almost always be less than the amount needed for stool control - so its likely you are getting enough bone if stools are firm. Just use your dog's gut to guide you 

ETA: That is nice that they customize a "formula" but really, it is not necessary. Your dog will dictate what you feed. No matter what lifestyle your dog lives he needs mostly meat, some bone and some organ. If he is very active you want to increase the overall amount you feed. If he is sedentary, decrease the amount fed. But customized formulas are not necessary and just a way for the company to draw business. 2-3% of overall body weight is the general rule of how much raw to feed. If he loses weight feed more if he gains weight feed less.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Also, I noticed this product has a lot of vegetables. Up to 35% veggies. I don't like vegetables to make up much of the diet (I don't feed them at all except occasionally as treats) and 35% really is pretty significant. Think about how little meat your dog will be getting if up to 30% is bone and up to 35% is veggies? The beef is 66% bone and veggies and only 33 percent meat! Dogs need mostly meat and I would personally be supplementing with lots of boneless meat if I was feeding this - which inevitably makes it more expensive and less convenient.

After looking at all of the ingredients/proportions I would not feed any of these without supplementing with boneless meat. And I still don't like all of the veggies  The main purpose all of those veggies will serve is to bulk up the stool. 

Also, bone is cheaper than fresh meat (so are veggies) so that is why commercial products tend to have more bone/veggies than meat. Think of how expensive it would be if it was mostly meat? You also may have heard conflicting ideas about bone proportions because BARF diets tend to call for more bone (mostly because BARF is driven by commercial products) while those feeding just raw bones, meat and organ generally strive for more meat and less bone.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I looked at this too, JE - but the price put me off before I got very far! For my two cats and two dogs it was going to cost me per day about what I currently spend per week. And none of mine will eat raw mince, only raw chunks and bone-in meat. I liked the focus on high quality, organic ingredients, but not much point if the animals won't eat it! I'm currently buying bags of Prize frozen tripe chunks and beef chunks from a local stockist, chicken wings and lamb ribs from Sainsbury's, and get a 25 kilo delivery of various DAF minces from Raw2Go every few months (hardly anyone delivers out here!). Most of the raw suppliers deliver in your area, so you have a lot of choice, but my advice would be to try a few packs before putting in a bulk order!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

They do offer some excellent proteins for the price - I like that BUT then throwing in 33% veggies......I don't see paying for that..

Also, they made a comment about sweet smelling breath on Raw.............hmm, none of my dogs got that memo LOL.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks, all. That reinforced my misgivings, but opinions about raw feeding are all over the place, so not sure who to believe. The veg and bone content did seem high to me. I like the idea of getting a month's supply at a time, and I like the commitment to local & organic, but I think I'll keep looking and putzing around with my part-commercial, part-home cooked, part-raw conglomeration! I really am looking for a difficult combination of convenience and highest quality possible.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry, one more question ChocolateMillie ... when you say supplement, you were talking about supplementing with additional meat?


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> a 25 kilo delivery of various DAF minces from Raw2Go every few months (hardly anyone delivers out here!).


How large is a 25 kilo pack? I had a look at Raw2Go, and might try some from them. Not sure I have room in my freezer for a huge pack though!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

20 - 25 kilos completely fills one third of my fridge freezer, with a few packs left over defrosting! I cook for my neighbour's dog, too, so can always offload some into her freezer, and my sister gave me her tiny freezer, which I keep stocked up with cooked packs. They deliver smaller quantities, but at £8 delivery charge I get as much in one go as I can cope with. DAF also deliver direct here once a month, but I think you have to get 20 of each variety - Raw2Go let you mix and match.

Each pack is 450 grammes - and my four get 75 - 100 grammes each a day, so it would be possible to feed it to them raw. Reckoning on around 150 grammes for Vasco, a pack would last him three days - again OK raw if defrosted in the fridge. It is a lot easier to get a mix of meat and offal etc if you cook several packs up together, though! The meat all contains approximately 10% bone - they reckon it is safe if it is cooked by boiling or simmering, but don't recommend roasting or baking.

You have more of a choice of suppliers delivering where you live, of course - here I have a 60 mile round trip to my nearest DAF stockist, and the Prize Choice minces available locally are far more expensive.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> Sorry, one more question ChocolateMillie ... when you say supplement, you were talking about supplementing with additional meat?


Yes, yes.


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## WeLoveBenji (Jan 18, 2011)

*Quick q about veggies*

Not sure how to delete this message and repost as a new thread..i apologize but here's my question...

My pup is on Life's Abundance kibble and he also gets Zuke's treats and Life's Abundance treats when training. We have tried canned food with him and as much as he loves it, his tummy doesn't. Should we start giving him some veggies as treats too? If so, what kind are safe? 

Thanks!


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Veggies as treats really don't digest. Which can make them a good treat for dogs who are on the hefty side. They get a treat but it adds very few calories.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have read that it is wise to avoid the Solanacaea family (potatoes, tomatoes, eggplant, etc), especially raw. Many dogs love carrot and apple - mine just chew raw veggies up into tiny fragments and spread them all over the floor ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

WeLoveBenji said:


> Not sure how to delete this message and repost as a new thread..i apologize but here's my question...
> 
> My pup is on Life's Abundance kibble and he also gets Zuke's treats and Life's Abundance treats when training. We have tried canned food with him and as much as he loves it, his tummy doesn't. Should we start giving him some veggies as treats too? If so, what kind are safe?
> 
> Thanks!


You can give veggies as treats but don't expect him to A) be able to digest them (they often come out just as they went in) or B) get anything nutritionally from them unless they are cooked or pulped. I doubt it would be harmful though.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

Millie is correct to point out what you were really paying for.

In dog food, veggies, fruits (really?) are cheap fillers. (as so are grains, corn, etc. and why we see them)


While dogs (and adults) do benefit from veggies, it is wise to use them for their fiber content. Keeping their colon clean is very important. 

A lot of digestive disorders and disease originate in the colon due to undigested foods, i.e. clogging (constipation), stressing/irritating (diarrhea), putrifying, (smelly stools, gas, body odor, bad breath).

The organs clog, too, the liver, kidneys, (these purify our system) we must be careful not to abuse our insides and 'cleanse' with fiber. 

You will see the veggies excreted in chunks because that's its function. Fiber is bulk. The bad stuff (fats and waste) will attach themselves to the fiber in the vegs and give the colon a good sweep (like a mop on a dirty floor) on the way out. 

2 TBSP of plain youghurt every day is very good for your dog (and humans) tp maintain healthy bacteria.



Peas (make perfect size cheap treats when doing lots of training), carrots, sweet pots, and pumpkin are excellent fiber and vit content.

Buy peas and carrot coins frozen (as they are already cooked) and microwave the sweet pots and use canned plain pumpkin. Mix pumpkin in Knox gelatin for doggy Jello-shots. Gelatin is good for the joints.

Minced meat (vs chunks) is horrible for their teeth and many dogs can developed digestive problems because they mix in too much fat. 

If you use minced meat, it is better to boil to melt the fat and rinse well. 

@Olie, Lol!!!! about the breath. Could it be that your dogs have meat stuck in their teeth? If your dogs also have gas, it could be undigested food.
What goes in must come out, one way or another!!!! ;')

Now, bones. Those are the natural teeth cleaners, and where they get their calcium and minerals. Be sure to read which ones are safe as most are not. 

Organs, great for vitamins & iron, so extra supplements are hardly necesary. Use about 1-2 oz each day.

Good news is that Bones are Organs are very cheap. You can buy for less than $1.30 a lb in my city. 

If you are uncomfortable, use the NOW bone meal. 1 TSP a day. (1 Lb cost about $8) or use canned fish. Salmon, Mackerel, and Sardines. All packed in water. Again, very cheap. 
Or use pulverized egg shells. (wholesome calcium)

Meat (no bones, skin, visible fat) your dog can eat anything they like. 
Look for sales and feed cheaply and FRESH this way.

About the stools. You can start by feeding 4-6 oz of meaty bones a day (not sure of your dog's size). Stools should be healthy.
If the dog's stools are hard add 2-4 oz of 'fiber veggies' or serve 3 oz of RAW boneless meat with the meaty bone.
(I like to use the same kind of meat, i.e. chicken bones-chicken meat, etc). 

Example: When I butcher a whole chicken, I pack half a back with 1 deboned thigh meat (for 2 complete meals), 2 wings with the leg meat (1 meal), and I cut each breast and supplement (2-3 oz) with an additional pack of chicken necks or feet.
You can feed your dog the Neck and Organs that come inside as a snack while they watch you butcher their chicken meals.
Nature always gives you the perfect proportions. 

In my area I can buy a whole chicken for .75 a lb, 1 lb of liver or heart for $1, and necks for $1 a lb.

Buying the food yourself is the only way to monitor your dog's nutrition. 
It's also cheaper and fresher. 

Once you get the hang of it, it is super easy. Just like feeding another family member, but easier because you don't have to cook anything! 

Another suggestion. Never feed meat (RAW or cooked) with vegs (or fruit). Protein and carbs/sugars digest at a different rate. This interrupts digestion causing gas and bloat.
If your dog (or you) have gas try separating the 2. 
Feed vegs ( and fruits) as snacks. 


Your dog's stools will tell the 'digestion story.' 

Happy Healthy Eating!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia said:


> You will see the veggies excreted in chunks because that's its function. Fiber is bulk. The bad stuff (fats and waste) will attach themselves to the fiber in the vegs and give the colon a good sweep (like a mop on a dirty floor) on the way out.


:doh: When I eat veggies they do not come out in chunks - they are digested. When dogs eat veggies and they come out in chunks it is because they were not able to digest them. 




Persia said:


> Peas (make perfect size cheap treats when doing lots of training), carrots, sweet pots, and pumpkin are excellent fiber and vit content.
> 
> Buy peas and carrot coins frozen (as they are already cooked) and microwave the sweet pots and use canned plain pumpkin. Mix pumpkin in Knox gelatin for doggy Jello-shots. Gelatin is good for the joints.


Okay these might make good treats but gelatin, carrots and pumpkin are species inappropriate. 



Persia said:


> Minced meat (vs chunks) is horrible for their teeth and many dogs can developed digestive problems because they mix in too much fat.


Proof, Persia? You seem to have some fear of feeding dogs fat. The only reason this meat might be unsatisfactory to feed is because it does not clean the teeth as it is simply mush and there is now jaw work required.



Persia said:


> Now, bones. Those are the natural teeth cleaners, and where they get their calcium and minerals. Be sure to read which ones are safe as most are not.


Persia, as a raw feeder I am sure you know that most bones ARE safe. The only ones that are not safe to feed are weight bearing bones of large mammals or bones that are TOO small to be safely eaten. 



Persia said:


> Meat (no bones, skin, visible fat) your dog can eat anything they like.
> Look for sales and feed cheaply and FRESH this way.


Though its better if the skin and visible fat are left on. Dogs *need* fat. 




Persia said:


> Another suggestion. Never feed meat (RAW or cooked) with vegs (or fruit). Protein and carbs/sugars digest at a different rate. This interrupts digestion causing gas and bloat.
> If your dog (or you) have gas try separating the 2.
> Feed vegs ( and fruits) as snacks.


What is your proof of this, Persia? Vegetables are not species appropriate foods and that is the only reason not to feed them. Dogs cannot digest them properly. Wolves (who share 99.8% of a dog's DNA) do not eat fruits or vegetables unless in times of absolute famine. When they eat prey, they leave the stomach. That being said, I do not think vegetables will cause any harm. Millie likes them so occasionally I will give her some veggie slop. Henry won't eat them so he doesn't get them.

If it makes you feel better to feed veggies, by all means, feed them! BUT, there is no scientific reason that you cannot feed them with meat. That would be very misleading.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

So much conflicting advice ... one raw/home cooked site actually recommends buying cheap mince BECAUSE of its high fat content - dogs need fat to digest protein. Obviously if you are trying to reduce a dog's weight, lowering the fat content will lower the calorie content, and too much fat can lead to digestive problems, but dogs seem to be able to cope happily with the natural fat levels of meat. And dogs are much less in need of roughage than humans, because of their very different digestive systems. 

What is best for humans is not necessarily best for dogs - just as my dogs can consume foods that would probably have me hospitalised (week old dried up rabbit with a side of sheep poop, anyone?!).


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

fjm said:


> So much conflicting advice ... one raw/home cooked site actually recommends buying cheap mince BECAUSE of its high fat content - dogs need fat to digest protein. Obviously if you are trying to reduce a dog's weight, lowering the fat content will lower the calorie content, and too much fat can lead to digestive problems, but dogs seem to be able to cope happily with the natural fat levels of meat. And dogs are much less in need of roughage than humans, because of their very different digestive systems.
> 
> What is best for humans is not necessarily best for dogs - *just as my dogs can consume foods that would probably have me hospitalised (week old dried up rabbit with a side of sheep poop, anyone?!)*.


LMBO!! :lol: that made me laugh


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> :doh:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What proof are you suggesting she give you? 
It looks like you answered your own question, I think? 

I don't feed veggies it is pointless unless you are trying to get some weight off a dog - OK, but I agree I will not feed them together for the very purpose you state ^^^.

Coco - my fat boy - yep its his nick name. We did a raw and cooked mix of veggies with his meat - the first couple times, oddly it came right up. Then we seperated the meat from veggies and he did OK - but got constipated. I have no "scientific" info on this and it could be a fluke but he did not do well with it.

There is so much with Raw that is NOT scientific. There is much to debate and there are so many ways and products and suppliments.........


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I probably wan't very clear. I am only saying that there is no proof that feeding veggies with meat will cause a problem. Premade raw has veggies and raw combined. 

I do believe, correct me if I am wrong, that there is scientific proof that dogs do not possess the ability to break down the cell walls of vegetables. Which is why we have to pulverize or cook them in order to feed them.

It surely doesn't cause any harm to separate feeding vegetables from when you feed raw but it isn't necessary either. I wouldn't want people to be turned away from raw or homecooked because they think they_ can't_ feed vegetables with meat.

ETA: I was also wanting to say, if you are separating veggies from meat because of a bloat/gas/digestion concern it would seemingly make more sense to eliminate the veggies from the diet completely to ensure the dog is eating a more easily digested meal. But that is just my opinion.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> What proof are you suggesting she give you?
> It looks like you answered your own question, I think?


Olie - personal experience is proof for me. Like you I am part of many raw groups. I have not heard of this before, though maybe its because many do not feed vegetables at all. It seems that most people whose dogs have trouble with veggies do best when veggies are eliminated. I am helping someone who lives near me switch to raw and this was exactly the case.

I just think that to say that veggies and meat should not be fed together is not necessarily a true statement and could be misleading. Just like saying kibble and raw should not be fed together. I don't do it but I also don't think it is necessarily a problematic or dangerous combination. These may cause problems for some dogs but in general there is no proof of this.

Again, it is also misleading to say that feeding meat and vegetables together will cause bloat. We really don't know what causes bloat.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> ETA: I was also wanting to say, if you are separating veggies from meat because of a bloat/gas/digestion concern it would seemingly make more sense to eliminate the veggies from the diet completely to ensure the dog is eating a more easily digested meal. But that is just my opinion.


Our opinions are agreeable on this


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Persia said:


> anything!
> 
> Another suggestion. Never feed meat (RAW or cooked) with vegs (or fruit). Protein and carbs/sugars digest at a different rate. This interrupts digestion causing gas and bloat.
> If your dog (or you) have gas try separating the 2.
> ...


CM - this was a suggestion. Maybe it would have been better if Persia had said "digestion problems can cause (and do) gas and possibly bloat."

I know there is no exact cause of bloat sadly- just lots of ways to minimize it. (so many, many ways)

Foods do in fact break down differently and can cause issues for some dogs if combined. I think its fair to accept that IMO.

I never recommend feeding Raw meat and kibble in the same sitting - thats my opinion and experience. People can chose to agree or disagree and thats OK.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> "digestion problems can cause (and do) gas and possibly bloat."


Now that is a true statement  


Olie said:


> Foods do in fact break down differently and can cause issues for some dogs if combined. I think its fair to accept that IMO.


True, but I personally believe this is because dogs should not be eating carbohydrates and sugars in the first place, being as they are carnivores. 

Anyway, I feel bad. I played a part in ruining this thread for JE-UK


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Not ruined for me! I am very interested in opinions on feeding. And there are a lot of them :smile:.

Interesting bit on DogStarDaily about nutrition and behaviour: Noodling on Nutrition | Dog Star Daily.

With regard to fruits and vegetables for my dog, I'm of two minds. It seems like an easy/cheap way for dog food manufacturers (even good ones) to bulk up the food, maybe unnecessarily. That would be bad. On the other hand, not sure I agree that fruits and vegetables aren't species-appropriate. With my limited sample size of one (currently), dogs seem pretty omnivorous/opportunistic. 

When we hike through the corn field with young corn on the stalks, V will gobble down as much corn as he can manage while still keeping up. He eats grass frequently and with apparent enjoyment. He loves windfall apples and will STUFF himself on them if given the chance. I try him on stuff when I cook ... he likes green peppers, bananas, green beans, edamame, courgettes. He dislikes blueberries, raw potato, carrots, pears, turnips, and tomato (I know tomatoes aren't good for them, but sometimes drop a piece by accident). I know it's not a scientific approach; he would gobble down chocolate if he could and that's not good for him! But it does point to a drive or a need for a more varied diet than purely carnivorous.

So, I'm still collecting opinions and research and experiences. I do think there is more to learn about canine nutrition. And I selfishly want my little guy to live as long and healthy a life as possible!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Thanks for the link, JE. It ties on to a discussion on another forum. I feed raw, but my dog has a bit of a sweet tooth and loves apples, dried cranberries (I haven't given her fresh), tomatoes, blueberries, and bananas. Pecans are also a favourite, and my last spoo loved pistachios. She also tries to lick clean any wine or beer bottles in the recycling and will dive into any soda, tea, or coffee left unattended.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> Not ruined for me! I am very interested in opinions on feeding. And there are a lot of them :smile:.
> 
> Interesting bit on DogStarDaily about nutrition and behaviour: Noodling on Nutrition | Dog Star Daily.
> 
> ...


JE-UK - The Natural History Museum classifies dogs as carnivores. That is a fact. I took a picture of the sign the other weekend to use strictly for times like these  Additionally, they vary by only .02% in DNA from a wolf, implying that they need have the same dietary needs. 

Also, looking at the structure of their jaws and their digestive system provides proof that they are not created with the teeth or system of an omnivore. Digestion does not start in their mouth, as it does for humans. And just because some dogs and wolves enjoy eating berries, veggies, etc. (they are sugary and delicious, after all!) does not mean that they need them. On the other hand, we do not have anything scientific to prove that they don't need them either. Only by looking at the structure of their digestive system and the habits of wolves can we determine. 

Like you said, I think they are technically opportunistic carnivores, meaning they will eat berries, etc. in times of famine. I really don't think fruits or veggies will be harmful by any means. But I _personally_ do not think they need them. We just also don't have any proof that they provide any nutrients that dogs cannot get from an otherwise balanced, raw diet. That being said, it probably doesn't hurt either way, but I would not want the majority of any dog's diet to be vegetable of fruit.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Not disputing that dogs fall into the classification 'carnivore', but that is a pretty broad category, and one invented by humans to help us organise stuff in our heads. 

Bears have similar teeth/jaw structures, are classed as carnivores, but enthusiastically eat things other than flesh, esp. fruits and vegetables. As do foxes. So while their teeth and jaws may be designed to give an advantage when hunting/eating live prey, it doesn't necessarily preclude a need for other food types. Plants don't run away, so it makes evolutionary sense for a species to evolve teeth/jaws that help with the part of the diet that DOES run away!

When I win the lottery, I'm commissioning studies on all sorts of dog research ... amazing that there is still so much we don't know definitively about dogs.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> When I win the lottery, I'm commissioning studies on all sorts of dog research ... amazing that there is still so much we don't know definitively about dogs.


Awesome!!!


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

*Digestion is more important than remaining a Purist!*

Ok, Let's all take a deep a breath! Kiss our poodles! Now, back to the Poodle Forum to figure out what is best for them! Whew!!!!!!!

Btw: Was I the only one that couldn't log on Thursday? 

I will try to explain without writting a book, but I feel like my posts should be use as guidelines and perhaps, if further interested, google some things on nutrition AND proper digestion. Here is how I see nutrition and why I post the way I do.

What I am SUGGESTING here is to try slowly and see what works. The variables are too great for just one thing to work for ALL poodles (or in this case, all breeds). There is a reason why scientific testing is very controlled. Variables! 

We are NEVER going to come up with the perfect RAW diet on these threads. ;') 

Variables include, poodle and size, what people REALLY are feeding their poodle, post feeding care resting/or is the dog out in the yard doing zoomies? allergies? and MOST importantly processing plants. 

Your minced meat is not the same one I'm getting. When I see 'organic meats' in posts, I can almost guess is an European poster. Organic is too expensive in my area. 

At any rate, this is my profession, so I'm working for free here, people! 

I feel is my contribution because in other subjects about poodle care I'm clueless! 
Also, there is a big different between a professional cook and most cooks. We are trained to prepare food properly while at home most cook for taste and on budget. 
(Very important, since at restaurant we can buy the best and pass on the cost to you!) I read what you are saying, but it is not what I'm meaning in my posts.

Food combinations are everywhere! Pay attention when you read and you will see it everywhere.

Otherwise known as the 'classics' for a reason that the untrained will miss, sushi and ginger, curry and yoghurt, marinades and meat, parsley served with meals, etc. The ginger, parsley, yoghurt, and acids in marinades are HELPING digestion. They are not just there for flavor. 

Having said that, when you see peas and chicken, you will see a vegetable and protein, 

while, I will see sugars (not all sugars are created equal), fiber, a dead carcass, decay, Vit B6, cholesterol, Vit A, etc.

In essense meat is a rotting animal that you are choosing to eat/feed! 
It is NOT a wonder food. 

You must exercise great care when eating it, that it is digested fast and properly, so that it doesn't stay in you (or dog) putrefying, irritating, or clogging. Add bones, raise the risks!

This is why veterinarians choose not to deal with RAW diets. 

The people on those RAW sites are NOT professionals. Again, just people discussing what is working at home or repeating what they read somewhere else. 

If anyone knows of a site where Canine Nutritionists can found, please post. I have tried to look myself. What little I found was for homemade COOKED diets.

Aside from nutrition let's not forget the importance of bonding. As people we thrive when sharing meals. Same with our beloved poodles. Nothing wrong to feed your dogs 20 peas while doing tricks or chilling on the couch. 
Hand feeding your dog is great bonding. 
(I will leave the RAW meat to the bowls).

You gotta give them treats in moderation. Treats are not their meals and I do NOT suggest you count them as so. 

The veggies suggested are good sources of fiber, i.e. why it is good if you want your dog to lose weight. It is not so much that veggies are low cal, but that they are ridding the body of excess fats and clogging junk!
I'm pretty sure that dogs find something 'natural' to help them in the wild with irregularity. A balanced diet for dog is not based on daily intake but over a 2 week period, therefore, occasional feedings of vegs/fruits is not going to hurt them. I only stated 2 ounces (4 max) of vegs. I don't feed fruits and I'm not going to knock anyone that does. It is their poodle, not mine.

Fiber also makes you full. 
I believe this is why Persia is calm and not an aggressive beggar, and eliminates twice a day and small, too. Morning and night. She never goes during the day. 
Peace of mind to trot about during the day.

In my previous post I suggested vegs as treats (another reason to separate from their protein meals), ALWAYS cooked! 

Blanching and steaming serves 2 purposes, to soften cell walls to make them more digestable and retain much of their nutrients. 
Sweet pots need to be cooked and I use canned plain pumpkin. Again, all very digestable.

Most frozen vegetables are blanched. A proper veggie tray is always blanched. 
That is when you see them at the supermarket, the carrots are all white and all the veggies are starting to dry out. 

This is BAD food prep and why many claim that raw veggies gives them gas. Not so, if you lightly cook accordingly.

Paying attention to digestion is more important than trying too hard to be a purist.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting, Persia - but I still think that you are coming at canine nutrition from a human nutrition point of view, and that they are very different. I am far from a purist - if my dogs are getting a tad overweight, I bulk the food up with a few cooked veg, and some rice or lentils. If they are a bit squidgy, I skip a meal, and add more bone, or rice and egg. If they are overly costive, a bit of liver does the trick. What they don't like raw, I will cook, as long as it is safe. And so on ...

Like JE, I wish there was more - and better - research into the optimal diet for dogs, and not just industry funded studies of what constitutes adequate nutrition. Until those studies are available, we all do the best we can with the information we have. But that information does need to be based on our best understanding of the physiology of dogs, rather than an extrapolation from studies on humans.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Persia said:


> Paying attention to digestion is more important than trying too hard to be a purist.


I am not a purist. I thought your idea about the peas and carrots for treats were great!! I just chose not to feed my dogs veggies as meals. As well as the HUMAN nutrition, you are right on. Why its in this thread........not sure about that. I can appreciate your profession. But you are talking more on a human level and NOT a dog. Here is a Scientific fact - this might be one of the few we can even discuss when feeding RAW. A DOGS DIGESTIVE TRACK IS NOT THAT OF A HUMANS!!

Also, I know that the people on "other Raw forums" are not "professionals" - but I consider 10-15 years of successfully feeding Raw, studying and documenting their experiences with Raw are FAR more important to me than a professional human nutritionist that has 5 minutes experience on feeding Raw. As the same with a Vet who is clueless - he's a professional with a degree but it sure does not make him know more about RAW, in fact most are clueless. I am NOT trying to offend, but this thread is about RAW and dogs and there are too many "variables"  being thrown in that might not even apply...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree with boy FJM and Olie.

Vets are VERY knowledgeable about _many_ things but nutrition is generally not one of those things. Only vets who have taken it upon themselves to research nutrition are the enlightened ones. I have been lucky enough to find a few of these. After Henry had GDV, his traditional vet at a traditional practice suggested we feed him raw. Also, I take Millie to a holistic veterinarian who fully supports a raw diet.  

You have to be very careful not to humanize the nutritional needs of dogs.

I am not a purist either. I do what works for my dogs. I follow their gut. Millie's diet is slightly different from Henry's due to my own observations. I very much respect the advice of someone who has been feeding raw for 15 years and such. I do not need "professionals" to tell me how to feed my dogs raw. Nature, physiology, the experience of seasoned raw feeders and the physical condition of my dogs is all I need to know what I am doing is right.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

The thing is that food will have the same nutritional values, so I'm not off based here. 


I do focus on the digestive tract, and I have read about dogs and my posts are based on this. Everything seems to make perfect sense, because I have a lot experience with food. 

I'm talking about food preparation and combinations to minimize problems. 

I did read those sites and experimented thinking that dogs were indeed, 'stronger' and it is not true.

This is when I decided to apply my Ayurveda principles.

What I read here is that dogs have a lot of digestive problems.
I wonder why? 

-Persia had diarrhea once with me. (knock on wood!).
After I fed her mince meat. (cooked) Switched to chunks (where they can not mix in the bad stuff) and she is fine.

-She had stomach upset after I fed her a large meal of RMBs.
That was scary. 

Guess where I got the idea from?
Those sites!

This is very standard recommendation. 
1 meal RMBS in the morning, 1 meal meat/organs at night, and to feed minced meat. 

Now, I mix 7 oz of RMBs and meat and feed 2x a day.
Vegs, when fed, separately. (about 2 oz).
She gets 2 oz of pumpkin on most days.
No problem. 
SAME food, just different combination and preparation. 

Trust your dog, not the sites. 
Again, healthy stools means there is a good chance that all the food has digested.

When all the food has been digested properly the diarrhea, constipation, unecessary gas should go away. (in people AND dogs)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia said:


> What I read here is that dogs have a lot of digestive problems.
> I wonder why?


Probably because they are either 1) fed crap kibble, 2) fed too many veggies and/or fed other species inappropriate foods This rarely includes raw meat in a dog who is fully adjusted to raw. I have had zero digestive problems with my dogs since switching to raw (aside from an incident of feeding too much liver at once. Operator error!) So far, I feed raw pork, beef, chicken, turkey and rabbit (whole prey) with no ill effects. Dogs fed a raw diet do in fact have very strong digestive systems. I have fed meat that is past date, a little stinky and I myself would NOT eat it.  Dogs thought it was crack!



Persia said:


> Persia had diarrhea once with me. (knock on wood!).
> After I fed her mince meat. (cooked) Switched to chunks (where they can not mix in the bad stuff) and she is fine.


Why did you feed it cooked?

What other factors were present when she got diarrhea? Did you introduce it slowly? Were you feeding enough bone? Did you feed organ with the meal?




Persia said:


> -She had stomach upset after I fed her a large meal of RMBs.
> That was scary.


Did you feed too much bone at once? How long had your poodle been on raw? What kind of RMB was it? My dogs have upset stomachs if I feed too much bone at once. Also, Henry vomited bone shards the first week or so he was on raw. That was scary at first, but this is very normal. I am now not alarmed when this happens (it rarely does.) It generally means I fed too much bone. I adjust accordingly. For example, he cannot tolerate a rack of more than 3 or 4 pork ribs. It is simply too much bone. So, I only feed him smaller amounts of pork ribs now, if at all.



Persia said:


> This is very standard recommendation.
> 1 meal RMBS in the morning, 1 meal meat/organs at night, and to feed minced meat.


I feed RMB meals once every other day. Once daily is too much for my dogs. I have never been given advice to feed minced meat. In fact, I have always heard you are supposed to feed the largest chunk of meat possible. That said, there is nothing wrong with minced meat. It simply doesn't give a workout. 



Persia said:


> Trust your dog, not the sites.
> Again, healthy stools means there is a good chance that all the food has digested.


Experienced raw feeders should be trusted. Forums full of experienced raw feeders should be trusted as well. Then, you should manipulate the diet to meet the needs of your own dog, of course.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I very much respect the advice of someone who has been feeding raw for 15 years and such. I do not need "professionals" to tell me how to feed my dogs raw. Nature, physiology, the experience of seasoned raw feeders and the physical condition of my dogs is all I need to know what I am doing is right.


If you don't remain open-minded you will never grow. It is good to have your trusted guide but you shouldn't have to limit yourself to only one expertise. 
No one that was ever sucessful did this. 

15 years is a very short time! 
That is 1996!!!!! 
Just think how far technology and medical research has progressed!

There is more interest and research in canine nutrition. It is there, it is just slow. 
People spending more money on their pets and the demand from the public for better canine nutrition is driving this. 

I predict because of people like us, that those college programs will change to include RAW diets just like we have moved to the benefits of organic and better nutrition. 
They even changed the Food Pyramid and dog food formulas from good old Alpo to the ones they rave about on here. 
(I haven't tried them, so I won't be specific)

When we talk to vets about RAW and many figure out that this is something pet parents want, they will change.
I'm sure these vet practices are always looking to grow (the money tree that is).


Wisdom is everywhere and Ayurveda is 5,000 years old. 
Embrace!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Persia said:


> If you don't remain open-minded you will never grow. It is good to have your trusted guide but you shouldn't have to limit yourself to only one expertise.
> No one that was ever sucessful did this.
> 
> 15 years is a very short time!
> ...


Persia, are you suggesting I am closed minded? I beg to differ.

Wolves have been eating a raw diet in nature for thousands of years as well. Wild dogs were eating raw before they were domesticated.  Prey model raw is based upon what wolves have been eating for thousands of years. I have no doubt this is the best possible way to feed a dog. 

Seeing as nature is nearly perfect by design I have full trust in following the diet of the wolf or dog (as they are essentially genetically identical). 

Do wolves follow Ayurvedu principles?


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

Millie, 
I was referring to the FJM post. I was meaning when you combine properly the first time you don't have to spend all that time tweaking.

I remember after I posted that you did 3 meat/ 1 bone. Just like I choose to do my mix. Yes, for both of us, it is too much bone, and we fixed the problem.

There was some trial error at the beginning from advice (and sample diets) on these sites on my behalf, but I am glad we have adjusted to our dogs' accordingly. 

My dog is a small puppy, your is not, and why our ratios and nutritional needs vary. This is one of the variables I mentioned earlier. While we see a lot of Spoo photos on PF, a lot of posters have toys/minis. 

We are not going to come up with the perfect uniformed RAW diet for all, this is to support and shed light. 

The chronic digestive problems from others can be searched here on this very site feeding RAW and kibble. They get posted on a daily basis, too. 
I don't like to knock people on Kibble if that is working for them like some RAW forums. 
I like to gather information and why I like PF.

Persia ate crap kibble when I got her, Eukanuba, and never had a problem.
This was also the reason it took me a while to switch to RAW. 
She was so little. Didn't want to mess with what was working for her after reading all the posts here.


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## Persia (Oct 14, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Persia, are you suggesting I am closed minded? I beg to differ.
> 
> Wolves have been eating a raw diet in nature for thousands of years as well. Wild dogs were eating raw before they were domesticated.  Prey model raw is based upon what wolves have been eating for thousands of years. I have no doubt this is the best possible way to feed a dog.
> 
> ...


When you wrote that you only listen to those that have been feeding RAW for 15+ years and you don't need 'professionals' you are indeed limiting yourself to the possibility of good advice elsewhere. 

Let me ask you, what are your credentials besides what you read on the internet and the advice you get from others? 

Yes, dogs do follow Ayurveda. 
Persia and the wolves are digesting their RAW protein alone. 
I have suggested this all along. 

'WeLoveBenji' did asked about vegetables.
I stated that a small amount of vegs are fine as long as they are softly cooked and fed as treats or when you are sure the dog is not actively digesting RAW protein. 

I posted the benefits and some good ones with fiber. 

Why do you have such a problem with this? 
A lot of people on this board seemed to enjoy feeding them to their dogs and their dogs like them.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have no problem with feeding veggies as treats and as a small part of the diet as long as they do not cause digestive upset to the dog. I would be concerned if they made up a large portion of the diet, though.

I also never stated that I _only_ listen to those who have been ra feeding for 15 years. I was simply agreeing with/relating to Olie's statement about trusting experienced raw feeders over professionals of human nutrition with little to no experience feeding raw. 

My credentials? I am not sure what you mean by this. I have read books, joined lists and forums, talked to raw feeders, attended seminars, consulted holstic vets, etc. Mos importantly, i have looked at the physiology and eating habits of wolves. All similar to what all raw feeders have done. I am as qualified to feed raw as anyone else.

I am not knowledgable about Ayerveda so I take your word that wolves follow those principles.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hey guys! This is starting to resemble a thread on a Dog Food forum, lol! If the OP is satisfied, then can we drop this?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It is really easy to get worked up about something I believe strongly in 

I am actually giving a speech at my university on raw feeding in February!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Congrats, Liz! That's really exciting! How did this come up? Have you developed an outline? I'm sure the folks on DFC will be happy to help!


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