# Contacting Breeders - Who Do I Call?



## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

Congrats, @lciano and call them all. Or email. And have fun with the process, because you'll probably meet some wonderful people and maybe a few new friends. 😉 

Pick one, have a chat to let them know what you're looking for, and what your timetable is. Ask any questions that pop up, and if they don't have anything for you, ask if they know anyone who does. If you get name(s) and number(s), call them next. If not, call someone else who's close enough to you and have another chat. End with the same question about anyone they might know about who has a litter or one upcoming.

If there's someone you particularly like while talking with them and they're within a comfy travel distance from you, maybe ask if you could visit them and meet their dogs, whether or not they have a litter now or soon. Meeting relatives of your potential new family member will tell you a lot about the temperament and size you can expect. They may say no and they may say yes. If you get a yes, schedule a visit. If you get a no, don't take it personally and don't write off that person as a potential for your new furry friend. Some people just aren't comfy having strangers visit - maybe ask if they'll be at local dog shows and try to meet them there.

Patience is key - puppies aren't sitting on a shelf waiting for someone to want them. You may have to wait. Get on waiting lists if you can do it without putting down a deposit, and know that not all breeders take deposits. There are two schools of thought - some want to ensure that the buyer goes through with the deal so require deposits, and some want to ensure that the puppy goes to a home where it's really wanted so don't take deposits. The middle ground is a refundable deposit. It's all negotiable, so do what feels right and comfortable to you. 

What I did when I was searching for Archie was to send an email to the two main breeder referral people listed on the PCA breeder referral page. I introduced myself, told about other dogs I've had, about the dog I was hoping to find and stressed that I would drive to pick him up. Leslie (east of the Mississippi referral) and Mary (west of the Mississippi referral) were very helpful and suggested the people I might want to get in touch with. Then I sent the same email to those people, saying that Leslie or Mary had suggested I get in touch with them. I heard back from most, had a wonderful conversation with a woman who didn't have what I wanted, and apparently she knew someone who might, so forwarded my email to that person, who forwarded it to Archie's breeder. It was networking at its finest and landed me a fabulous dog. May you have a similar experience and end up with the dog of your dreams, too!


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

SandyTopknot said:


> Congrats, @lciano and call them all. Or email. And have fun with the process, because you'll probably meet some wonderful people and maybe a few new friends. 😉
> 
> Pick one, have a chat to let them know what you're looking for, and what your timetable is. Ask any questions that pop up, and if they don't have anything for you, ask if they know anyone who does. If you get name(s) and number(s), call them next. If not, call someone else who's close enough to you and have another chat. End with the same question about anyone they might know about who has a litter or one upcoming.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! You've given me so much great information, and I really appreciate you taking the time! I'm looking now, for a puppy next June, so I am hoping to get on some wait lists soon. Will follow all your advice!
Laura


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

@lciano let me know what questions you have. I love to help good people and good breeders find each other. 🐾 💖 🐾


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

SandyTopknot said:


> @lciano let me know what questions you have. I love to help good people and good breeders find each other. 🐾 💖 🐾


I'm hoping to contact people this week, so I'll definitely be in touch! 🙂


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Wonderfully spelled out by SandyTopknot! 

If you're going to consider putting your name on more than one waitlist, even without deposit, I'd recommend being open with the breeder/s that you're doing this. 

I've read on some breeders sites that they treat their waitlist as a commitment, naturally after several rounds of communications, so it's a courtesy to let them know if you think you might do this.


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> If you're going to consider putting your name on more than one waitlist, even without deposit, I'd recommend being open with the breeder/s that you're doing this.


That is a detail I forgot to include...thank you, Rose n Poos!


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Wonderfully spelled out by SandyTopknot!
> 
> If you're going to consider putting your name on more than one waitlist, even without deposit, I'd recommend being open with the breeder/s that you're doing this.
> 
> I've read on some breeders sites that they treat their waitlist as a commitment, naturally after several rounds of communications, so it's a courtesy to let them know if you think you might do this.


Thank you for the information, although I wouldn't do that to a breeder. I'm familiarizing myself with the PF breeder's list, and the OFA website, but it's a lot to learn! So far I have Moonstruck in California on my list, and will be calling the PCA's breeder referral people this week. This forum is amazing, and I'm learning so much. Thank you!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

If you are in the southwest, I maintain a list of recommended poodle breeders for that area that I can send you. Just email me at [email protected].


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

Johanna said:


> If you are in the southwest, I maintain a list of recommended poodle breeders for that area that I can send you. Just email me at [email protected].


Hi Johanna,
I sent you an email. Thank you,
Laura


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

lciano said:


> I'm hoping to contact people this week, so I'll definitely be in touch! 🙂


Hi Sandy,
I'm seriously considering Shiann and Moonstruck, any thoughts?
Laura


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lciano said:


> Hi Sandy,
> I'm seriously considering Shiann and Moonstruck, any thoughts?
> Laura


I think you meant to quote @SandyTopknot here.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I think you meant to quote @SandyTopknot here.


@PeggyTheParti So sorry, I'm computer literate, but I'm not familiar with how to communicate properly here. Did I get it right with you? 
Laura


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lciano said:


> @PeggyTheParti So sorry, I'm computer literate, but I'm not familiar with how to communicate properly here. Did I get it right with you?
> Laura


Yep, you’re doing just fine.  I just wanted to make sure Sandy saw your reply.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yep, you’re doing just fine.  I just wanted to make sure Sandy saw your reply.


Thanks!


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

@lciano I'm on the steep leg of the learning curve here, too, where use of this platform is concerned. 😉 The quote function makes sense once you've done it a time or two. @PeggyTheParti thank you for making sure I saw the question.

And I fear I don't have a great answer - I don't personally know either one, so don't feel comfy recommending either one. If they're on the PCA breeder referral list and/or if someone here has personal, positive experience with them, that can help you feel good about getting a puppy from them. 

For me, I really want to like the person I'm getting a puppy from, because I want to be able to go back to them with questions and rely on them for advice - when you find that, along with all of the other things like only breeding health-tested adult (over 2 years old) dogs that have working and/or conformation titles, then you have found someone worth considering. Keep us posted...can't wait to see pictures of your new family member!


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

SandyTopknot said:


> @lciano I'm on the steep leg of the learning curve here, too, where use of this platform is concerned. 😉 The quote function makes sense once you've done it a time or two. @PeggyTheParti thank you for making sure I saw the question.
> 
> And I fear I don't have a great answer - I don't personally know either one, so don't feel comfy recommending either one. If they're on the PCA breeder referral list and/or if someone here has personal, positive experience with them, that can help you feel good about getting a puppy from them.
> 
> For me, I really want to like the person I'm getting a puppy from, because I want to be able to go back to them with questions and rely on them for advice - when you find that, along with all of the other things like only breeding health-tested adult (over 2 years old) dogs that have working and/or conformation titles, then you have found someone worth considering. Keep us posted...can't wait to see pictures of your new family member!


Hi Sandy, and thank you. I agree -- I think I need a breeder that I like, and feel comfortable talking to. Probably because I never shut up 🤣. I appreciate your help and advice, Laura


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I have no personal experience with them but Shiann and Moonstruck are both well thought of. 

Side note - 

PF is listed as having over 20,000 members. That's really misleading.
First, that number is since PF started in 2007. Many members join just to ask a question or a few and then stop participating, or they're here for the lifetime of their poodle and then stop participating.
Of the regularly participating members, which rotate as the membership ebbs and flows, at any given period of time, I'd generally guess around 200-250 members regularly participate.

I'm still searching for how many poodle breeders there are in the US, whether top of the line or bottom of the barrel.
The ASPCA estimates around 2000 federally licensed (larger scale, for profit style) breeders. There would easily be at least that number or more of breeders operating under that radar, and to pick a number let's say half that , around 1000 poodle breeders who are or are trying to be what I think of as quality breeders.

This is all really just guesstimating but if you have around 250 active members and around 1000 quality breeders and both of those populations change thru time, it's not really odd that a breeder may not be mentioned by more than a few people more than a few times thru a few years.

----

We'll always encourage a member to ask about breeders by name so if we have a member with personal experience, great. If not, we may be familiar with their reputation, or look at available online info and offer opinions on why we would or would not consider that breeder for ourselves. 

Things we do are look thru the website, if there is one, to see how they present themselves. 
Do they talk about their goals with their breeding program? 
Do they focus on their achievements? 
Do they not only refer to health testing, do they display or link the results on their site? 
Do they feature their adult dogs, giving the registry name or name so you can do a bit of sleuthing yourself?
Are they members of a local PCA club? 

Not all breeders have websites, many that do might seem neglected because they're working a regular full time job, looking after family, and looking after their dogs.
Breeding isn't a livelihood for these folks. It's a calling.

Moonstruck's website is a good example. You'll see that their site lists much of what's noted above. 

If a website doesn't have much of that info, you can always go to the OFA site and search for yourself using the kennel name or the poodle's registry name or number. 
Your goal is to see if they're publishing test results. 

Advanced Search | OFA 

Proper health testing is my minimum criteria in whether to pursue a breeder. My reasoning is that if they're investing in breeding for health, they're likely to invest in the rest of the criteria. This is part of what separates good breeders from less than. 

You'll get a feel for breeders when you start making initial contacts to introduce yourself. Sandy again makes a good point about being comfortable with a breeder. You become a bit of their family since you'll have one of theirs joining yours. 

While you wait for members to respond, it never hurts to do a search here to see what has been said about a breeder. 

(8) Search results for query: moonstruck | Poodle Forum 

(8) Search results for query: shiann | Poodle Forum


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> I have no personal experience with them but Shiann and Moonstruck are both well thought of.
> 
> Side note -
> 
> ...


Hi, and thanks for all of the information. I am really learning a great deal from all of you. Proper health testing is the most important criteria for me as well. I did start to familiarize myself with the OFA site to pull up some information. Shiann, Moonstruck and Clarion all have a lot of test results on there, which I like, however, another kennel that I am considering only has 14 matches. Is that a bad sign? Also, when a breeder has a new litter, or is planning a new litter, how quickly are prospective buyers informed of who the parents are? In other words, I would like to know who the parents are before committing to a puppy, so I can check their test results. Does this make sense to you? I'm new to this, and don't know how the process usually goes. Many, many thanks in advance for your help!
Laura


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

Glad you're learning your way around the OFA website - it is a fountain of information. If a kennel produces 100 puppies a year for 10 years and 14 of their dogs are in the OFA database, that's probably a bad sign. If a kennel produces fewer than 10 puppies a year for two years and there are 14 of their dogs in the OFA database, that's not a bad sign at all. Not every dog that a kennel produces will end up in the OFA database - those sold on limited registration may or may not get all the testing because they're not going to be bred so will have no impact on the gene pool.

As for parentage, you should know the parents the first time puppies are discussed. If there's a litter on the way or on the ground that you're interested in, ask who the parents are. If the litter was an "oops" litter - which can happen to even the best breeders - and there is more than one intact male on the property, the sire may be unknown. When that happens, the breeder DNA tests the whole litter, the dam and the potential sire(s) so the real "baby daddy" can be identified and the litter properly registered. In the case of an oops litter, you may not know exactly which male sired the litter until the DNA test results come back - ask for the names of all of the potential culprits so they can all be checked out.

A puppy from an oops litter isn't "less than" just because that breeding wasn't planned. My dear friend owns beautiful Siberian Huskies and had an oops. I got a puppy from that litter who is now known officially as *CH Halo's Follow Your Arrow At Kachme RN DCAT RATO CGCA TKA. *This fall, she'll earn her Working Pack Dog title, her Beginner Novice obedience title, her FCAT title and who knows what else. She has the best work ethic of any dog I've ever owned and is a pure pleasure to play with. And she's only 2.5 years old...it's fun to think about all the games she and I will play during the next 10 years!


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

“As for parentage, you should know the parents the first time puppies are discussed.”

For a different perspective, I put down a deposit for a puppy from a breeder (back in March) and have absolutely no idea which bitch they plan to breed later this year or early next year. (So also no real timeline to our newest family member.) I researched them, their practices, and decided I do want a dog from them. Sure, I could wait until they have a litter on the ground but the odds of getting a pup from them at that point is slim to none. It’s letting go of a lot of control for me to do it this way. They pick the puppy - never done it like that before! I believe I remember that they don’t announce the litter for a couple weeks… so it could be less than 2 months that I even know my newest pup is arriving. If I remember correctly, @Phaz23 was in the same boat with Tekno, kind of in the dark but with the knowledge that she had a deposit on a pup from an excellent breeder.


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

@Starla that's a first for me. They won't tell you which female(s) they intend to breed and which male(s) are the prospective "dates"? Because they have to know at least the female(s) - otherwise, how do they plan a breeding? Serious question - this is something I haven't run across in 40+ years in dog sports. Not saying it's wrong - wanting to understand the thought process.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

SandyTopknot said:


> @Starla that's a first for me. They won't tell you which female(s) they intend to breed and which male(s) are the prospective "dates"? Because they have to know at least the female(s) - otherwise, how do they plan a breeding? Serious question - this is something I haven't run across in 40+ years in dog sports. Not saying it's wrong - wanting to understand the thought process.


I’m sure they know their intended breedings, but they don’t really advertise them. I guess I could push and see if I could learn more, if they were willing to share, but I want one of their dogs, so it doesn’t matter to me which of their amazing girls the new pup will come from.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

SandyTopknot said:


> Glad you're learning your way around the OFA website - it is a fountain of information. If a kennel produces 100 puppies a year for 10 years and 14 of their dogs are in the OFA database, that's probably a bad sign. If a kennel produces fewer than 10 puppies a year for two years and there are 14 of their dogs in the OFA database, that's not a bad sign at all. Not every dog that a kennel produces will end up in the OFA database - those sold on limited registration may or may not get all the testing because they're not going to be bred so will have no impact on the gene pool.
> 
> As for parentage, you should know the parents the first time puppies are discussed. If there's a litter on the way or on the ground that you're interested in, ask who the parents are. If the litter was an "oops" litter - which can happen to even the best breeders - and there is more than one intact male on the property, the sire may be unknown. When that happens, the breeder DNA tests the whole litter, the dam and the potential sire(s) so the real "baby daddy" can be identified and the litter properly registered. In the case of an oops litter, you may not know exactly which male sired the litter until the DNA test results come back - ask for the names of all of the potential culprits so they can all be checked out.
> 
> A puppy from an oops litter isn't "less than" just because that breeding wasn't planned. My dear friend owns beautiful Siberian Huskies and had an oops. I got a puppy from that litter who is now known officially as *CH Halo's Follow Your Arrow At Kachme RN DCAT RATO CGCA TKA. *This fall, she'll earn her Working Pack Dog title, her Beginner Novice obedience title, her FCAT title and who knows what else. She has the best work ethic of any dog I've ever owned and is a pure pleasure to play with. And she's only 2.5 years old...it's fun to think about all the games she and I will play during the next 10 years!


Thank you!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Eleni of Moonstruck Poodles is most ethical, and I would definitely put her at the top of my list!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

There are also purposely dual-sired litters where puppies are also DNA tested to establish the sire(s), and that can also be a completely legitimate situation 😊.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Eleni of Moonstruck Poodles is most ethical, and I would definitely put her at the top of my list!


Thank you. She absolutely is! I haven't reached out to her yet, but plan to soon. Thank you 🙂


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

lciano said:


> another kennel that I am considering only has 14 matches. Is that a bad sign? Also, when a breeder has a new litter, or is planning a new litter, how quickly are prospective buyers informed of who the parents are? In other words, I would like to know who the parents are before committing to a puppy, so I can check their test results.


In addition to the good info above, covid has also created a few stumbling blocks for breeders and testing. That's likely to be clearing up more by now. Breeders may also have the results and simply haven't posted yet. It's only a partially automatic process and in some cases, the breeders can choose not to publish at all.

There's another possibility, especially with long established breeders. Phenotype testing has been done for decades but genetic testing has only been possible since after the dog genome was sequenced, 2003 or 2005, and then conditions identified, and then testing developed.
Before there was this level of testing available, breeders depended on their eyes, the history of their dogs and those of the other breeders, the databases on paper and online to search health history that was available. Some breeders may still rely on that knowledge but test when they feel something should be tested.

The PCA relies primarily on phenotype testing but more genetic testing is being recommended and is being used. Just don't accept genetic testing only.

------

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle


*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)

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There's no one-size-fits-all for breeders, in that there's nothing but integrity to separate the good from the not so much. This is another reason to get to know and meet the breeder and the dogs in person whenever possible.

Because breeding is not a business for them, they will each run their kennel as they see fit. There are good practices that they will follow, and if PCA club members, are required to follow, but don't expect to eliminate risk 100%.

If there's a contract/health guarantee or warranty, look it over carefully. What is and isn't in there will tell you a lot.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

@Rose n Poos 
Thank you for all of the very important information! Still learning how to properly quote, but what you said about getting to know the breeders is a good point. I am starting to reach out to them, and hope to find a mutual good fit soon. Have a great day, Laura


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

When looking for OFA reports it's also worth considering that the dog may have originally been registered by another kennel. Breeders do purchase dogs and breeding rights from other kennels. Thus it's possible Shoofly Kennel's dog "Buster" is actually registered as "Apalachicola's Prince Arthur."


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

@cowpony 
Wouldn't breeders want prospective buyers to know that though? If the OFA site doesn't have much information on one of the parents at a kennel I was considering, it would be helpful for me to have that information🤔


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## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

@lciano always ask for the registered name of the dog - you can look them up that way on the OFA website.


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## lciano (Dec 26, 2019)

SandyTopknot said:


> @lciano always ask for the registered name of the dog - you can look them up that way on the OFA website.


🤦 I've only used the kennel name so far, but now I remember seeing that you can put the dog's name as well. Still learning! Thank you!


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