# Is there a place for negative reinforcement?



## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

With my previous dogs, negative reinforcement had a place in training classes. Heeling corrections were taught to be made by a short jerk on the leash to a chain collar that tightened momentarily and then loosened again. Getting a dog to give up something clamped in their jaws was by pulling the jaws open while pressing lips against teeth so that it was uncomfortable to keep the mouth clamped. I realize that these techniques are not recommended anymore and I am firmly on the positive reinforcement side of the equation. Perhaps those animal behavior courses I took at university will finally come in handy. 

Trying to lure or treat a dog to get the desired behavior can be quite difficult at times. Getting the frisbee or ball back is pretty easy as food rewards are easily swapped for the toy. However, the new flirt pole toy is way higher value to Loki than any food. What I do is let him have it until his attention wavers a bit and I pull it away with "Give" and treat him. It takes a lot of patience to await that perfect opportunity but it does come and avoids trying to pry the toy loose. 

We do use "off" and "no" to indicate and hopefully halt bad behavior or pause our interaction, withdrawing ourselves from the play at times, but that's the only negative reinforcement used. 

Anyway, all these interactions and learning a new way of teaching a puppy is interesting and challenging. It did leave me with a question though, does negative reinforcement have any place in dog training?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think negative reinforcements do have a place, but they can be very mild kinds of things like withdrawing interaction (time outs). My poodles are trained with a three word marker system of: Oops/uh oh, good and yes. Oops/uh oh means that was wrong lets try again. Good means I liked what you just did but let's keep working. Yes means awesome here's a treat and you are released from working. I also use pinch collars for heeling and think they are more informative for the dog since the dog can immediately connect the undesired behavior of pulling on a leash with feeling the collar tighten. They also can decide how much they want to pull at the thing they are trying to get or how quickly they want to get the leash to go slack again. All of that happens with timing much better than a person can mark. Corrections of poor behaviors are only fair if the dog really knew what the right behavior was.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think it depends on the dog, but I'm not comfortable with anything that physically hurts or scares my dogs. Frosty is soft as butter in temperament and works great with positive reinforcement/clicker training and no negative reinforcement ever past a "no" during housebreaking mistakes or chewing up paper towels. Like Catherine, I use "uh oh" if he performs an exercise incorrectly and "yes!" (often with a treat) for a good job. Maizie is much more stubborn, but still sensitive, and has had to have time outs, toys and flirt poles taken away, etc. I would never leash pop or anything like that. I've been glad to see that such punitive behavior has been severely penalized in the rally ring.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Negative reinforcement (removing an aversive to reinforce a behavior, ie an ear pinch) and positive punishment (adding an aversive to decrease a behavior, ie physically correcting a dog for an undesired behvaior) are the two quadrants where +R trainers stay away from but are used by balanced trainers. Whether or not negative reinforcement has a place in dog training has a lot to do with your individual philosophy on training.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

This is going to get kind of lecture-y and I apologize for that upfront, but it's good to be familiar with the right terminology so you can make informed choices about training. These terms come from the world of Operant Conditioning (you'll also hear BF Skinner's name a lot), which has four basic quadrants. In this case, positive and negative don't mean good or bad - they essentially mean plus or minus. A basic rundown of the terms is as follows - 

positive: adding something
negative: removing something

reinforcement: increases the likelihood that a behavior will be repeated
punishment: decreases the likelihood that a behavior will be repeated

Therefore - 

Positive reinforcement (R+): adding something that makes it _more _likely the dog will repeat what it just did (example: giving a treat after performing a trick)

Positive punishment (P+): adding stimuli that makes it _less_ likely a dog will repeat what it just did (example: pinching a collar when the dog pulls)

Negative reinforcement (R-): removing something so the dog is _more _likely to repeat a behavior (example: applying a shock _until_ the dog sits, so they learn that quickly sitting is the best way to make the unpleasant sensation stop)

Negative punishment (P-): removing something so the dog is _less_ likely to repeat a behavior (example: walking out of the room when the dog nips your hands)

Clicker trainers and so-called "positive reinforcement" trainers typically use a combination of R+ and P- in order to train - they add rewards or remove stimulus in order to get what they want.

"Balanced" trainers usually use R+ and P+, though they may dip into the other quadrants as well. Edit: The only time I've seen R- is in police dogs and the like, though I think it's used in some more old-school obedience training too.

ANYWAY, pedantic lecture aside, I think P+ can be useful if you know your dog and understand how to do it properly. You should try to do the minimum amount of punishment required to get the result you want, though. Both because it's more humane and because it'll work better - if you go too harsh that can overwhelm the dog enough that they can't really think anymore, and then they're not learning anything. Shut down and "learned helplessness" responses can look like compliance, but really it's just the dog trying to avoid doing _anything_ instead of avoiding the _specific thing_ you wanted them to stop doing.

My most common P+ tactics with my dogs is either a loud noise/NO, or if I need the big guns then they get sprayed with a bottle of water. They think the spray bottle is the worst thing in the world, so I definitely wouldn't want to go for, say, smacking them on the butt or something. Other dogs might be harder.

For the most part, though, I get my best results from negative punishment - Archie LOVES people and toys, so removing either of those things gets the message across very quickly that he's doing something inappropriate.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Very well worth explaining in detail lisasgirl. Thank you for that comprehensive set of definitions that I think we all know in the back recesses of our brains. How to apply the four quadrants should be based in an appropriate balance for the dog in front of you and making sure you have a clear understanding of your expectations and that the dog really is either understanding or inn a mental state to acquire understanding of what is being taught or practiced. The correct balance may be very different for different dogs.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Lisasgirl, 

Thanks for the R+ R- P+ P- explanation. As a clicker trainer, I do primarily use R+. I spend far more time and energy figuring out what I want my dogs to do, and train those things. I punish very little as a result. We flow from one R+ to the next R+.

Is there a place for negative reinforcement? Yes. I use P+ with paws on the kitchen table. And P+ for getting in the garbage. A paper towel tube makes a very impressive thwack when you hit the table with it. Notice, I said the table, not the dog. Paws up, scary noise, "off!" paws off. Now, all I have to say is off. 

My garbage can protocol is kind of funny, but works and this is pure P+.
When the puppy gets into the garbage, I beat the crap out of the garbage can with a paper towel tube. Lots of theater here. Bad garbage can! Why did you tempt my dog? Bad, bad garbage can! Bad! Pet and comfort the dog, poor puppy, are you OK? Did that mean garbage can tempt you? Beat the bad garbage can up again. 

To this day, Noelle and Francis walk wide of the garbage can and give it the stink eye. Nah-ah, you bad garbage can. You're not gonna tempt me. Funny to watch and trained with P+.

I do use positive reinforcement far more than punishment, because punishment doesn't teach a dog what I want to see. Punishment teaches one thing, stop that. Punishment does not teach, do this. Punishment is a red light. Green lights get you places. So, I train for green light behavior using positive reinforcement.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I use R+ training with treats and praise for rewards. I have never yelled or hit my dog - she is far too sensitive for that. Some of my early training involved just removing certain potential stimuli away from her. Shoes and socks and anything small that she might use as a toy or chew toy was put up high or hidden in closets so she had no access to them. Kitchen garbage was hidden in a cabinet so she learned the smells were there but never access. When she was older it was easy to bring them back out because she was no longer interested in them. She had her toys and chews and ignores everything else. When she still had her land shark phase I used P- by turning away from her but mostly I would redirect her behavior with giving her a pizzle which was appropriate to chew.

Like Catherine I have marker words - uh uh, yes and good girl and two release words okay and free. I'm trying to transition away from okay because it's such a common word. Uh uh means she isn't doing it correctly. Good girl is encouragement because she is doing something well and yes means this is great and you're getting a treat. The release word is to let her know that we have finished a particular command and are moving on to do something different. 

I love the way Click explained training with green lights - that's how I train "green light behavior using positive reinforcement".


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar I am also trying to get rid of okay as a release word for the same reason. Free is less likely to be said in casual talking than okay! And poodles are sensitive so never any hitting, but if someone wanders off they get collected by the collar and back onto leash.

I know there are lots of people who are really adept with clickers, but since they only mark +'s I like having the uh-oh or oopsie to tell the dog they were wrong about something without making it a big scene.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Negative markers are funny. I use "No/uh-uh" for "stop everything you're doing right now." And then I have "Not quite" or "Try again" for "That wasn't what I asked for, but keep going." I use the former when Archie's trying to get to the cat food. I use the latter for when he tries to just crouch instead of actually lie all the way down during training.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I use Nope, try again for whoops. I'm using Whoopee! As a release word because it makes me want to have a happy moment with my dog. But still use a very quiet, okay for the end of a stay because I want to reinforce staying put far more than getting up.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I was able to take a private hour with my trainer this morning for Javelin. While there is still a lot to teach him we are focusing lots these days on ring choreography (all the in between exercises stuff) and one thing she said today was to always keep my voice firmly low key with Javvy since he goes up and up and up as he succeeds with things and also tends to stress "up," think zoomies in the making. I also make my releases very low key. As I said above you have to train the dog you have, not the ideal vision of the dog you wanted. And I do think it is important to tell the dog when they have made a mistake, especially once they know what they were really supposed to have done.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I must admit I use a pinch collar when walking. Otherwise he pulls, I think a harness teaches a dog to pull, though I've used a freedom no pull harness in the past on another go and it helped. The collar I have at the moment is rubberized, not steel but it tightens up enough to let him know. I don't have to really even pop it. The first time I put it on him he yelped as it tightened and he did not like it but he learned immediately that if he doesn't pull it doesn't pinch. The flat collar even the martingale he pulls hard,me being older with a very bad right ankle and a year old left knew replacement really can't afford to fall. We are having some success with heeling as long as I have a treat and clicker in hand.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Mufar42 said:


> I must admit I use a pinch collar when walking. Otherwise he pulls,* I think a harness teaches a dog to pull, though I've used a freedom no pull harness in the past on another go and it helped. * The collar I have at the moment is rubberized, not steel but it tightens up enough to let him know. I don't have to really even pop it. The first time I put it on him he yelped as it tightened and he did not like it but he learned immediately that if he doesn't pull it doesn't pinch. The flat collar even the martingale he pulls hard,me being older with a very bad right ankle and a year old left knew replacement really can't afford to fall. We are having some success with heeling as long as I have a treat and clicker in hand.


Only the harnesses that clip at the dog's back cause them to pull! The front clip/freedom harnesses do NOT encourage pulling.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mufar42 said:


> I must admit I use a pinch collar when walking. Otherwise he pulls, I think a harness teaches a dog to pull, though I've used a freedom no pull harness in the past on another go and it helped. The collar I have at the moment is rubberized, not steel but it tightens up enough to let him know. I *don't have to really even pop it.* The first time I put it on him he yelped as it tightened and he did not like it but he learned immediately that if he doesn't pull it doesn't pinch. The flat collar even the martingale he pulls hard,me being older with a very bad right ankle and a year old left knew replacement really can't afford to fall. We are having some success with heeling as long as I have a treat and clicker in hand.


You never pop a dog on a pinch collar. The whole point is that they correct themselves and decide what level of pulling they want to try before they let it loosen. I also have a protocol for introducing pinch collars that will let you fade them (as Ian Dunbar himself taught me). I have described it here before but will do so again now. You need a cheap flat nylon collar in addition to the pinch collar. Put the pinch collar on every day for two weeks and give treats when you do so, but don't hook it to the leash. Take it off when your dog is relaxed with it on. In the meantime take the nylon collar and put it in a ziploc bag with something stinky like mink oil or cod liver oil for two weeks while you get the dog used to the collar being on without it doing anything. When you decide to go live with the pinch collar you put it on and then your stinky nylon collar and hook both of them to the leash. When the dog gets the correction from the pinch collar he will associate it with the smelly collar. Use them both together and allow the smell of the nylon collar to gradually fade. As this happens the live pinch collar will be teaching the dog not to pull. After that you can take off the pinch collar if you want.

All that said my dogs wear pinch collars at various times and I don't think there is any reason to apologize for using them (or nearly any other tool other than a choke chain) as long as they are used correctly and fairly.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

CD LILLY Oh sorry I wasn't clear when I said I don't even have to pop it. I realize you don't pp t at all. I have used pinch collars for over 30 years and was taught the proper use. Thank you for clarifying as I may have given others the wrong impression. Thanks for the idea of "the smelly collar" I never thought about that.

zooeysmom..Yes we have a freedom harness and we have used the front clip, we used this harness on our boxer, right now its still too big for puppy. I stopped using it on the boxer when he twisted himself and actually pulled out of it. The front clip does help to stop pulling forward. I am also familiar with it in the you can attach two leads to it to have better control.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Mufar42 said:


> CD LILLY Oh sorry I wasn't clear when I said I don't even have to pop it. I realize you don't pp t at all. I have used pinch collars for over 30 years and was taught the proper use. *Thank you for clarifying* as I may have given others the wrong impression. Thanks for the idea of "the smelly collar" I never thought about that.
> 
> zooeysmom..Yes we have a freedom harness and we have used the front clip, we used this harness on our boxer, right now its still too big for puppy. I stopped using it on the boxer when he twisted himself and actually pulled out of it. The front clip does help to stop pulling forward. I am also familiar with it in the you can attach two leads to it to have better control.



Since I actually think pinch collars are a very useful tool when used properly I try to explain the best use of them whenever the topic comes up! Many people do think they are evil, but I find them much more humane when use properly than choke chains (for which I find virtually no proper use).


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