# Taffy's OFA Results



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_
I received Taffy's OFA hip results yesterday. On top of several other issues that we know exist, she failed her hip test. She received a borderline hip joint conformation result. She has slight subluxation and shows unilateral pathology on the left side. I could have her retested in six months but there is no point.

Taffy is a cousin to Adrienne's Gorky who passed away last year from Addison's and sever hip dysplasia. We will be posting this on the appropriate web site for that. 

I'll also be writing a letter to owner's of Leatherstocking regarding their practices and the consequences of those practices on their buyers and their puppies.

I will also be calling the vet this week to ask what this will mean for her future, if anything, as she has never shown any clinical sign of hip trouble. She was being trained for agility last summer.

Taffy is a loving, velcro girl who lives to please. She is smart, learns fast and is a good therapy dog. Dianne and I will be looking for a special home for her where she will be given all the love and attention she deserves. We are going to look for that special person who will continue to use her therapy training.

I talked it over with my husband and he had no problem with me keeping her as a pet. I told him that I need a bitch that I can breed and show. He felt really bad about it but said that we couldn't do both; which I already knew. There is only so much room, time and finances. 

I know that some of you may be very uncomfortable with this decision and shoot me down in flames for making this decision. I want you all to know that I love that little girl with the great big soulful dark eyes with all my heart. But, I had to make a decision that is in line with our program._


----------



## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

Debbie, I am so sorry about Taffy. I know how much you cared for Taffy. Breeders such as Leatherstocking seem to have no concern about their pups as you have witnessed from my experience. You are very responsible by taking the appropriate actions to express your dissatisfaction to the breeder and merchantcircle.com. Also as you well know to list Taffy on the poodle health registry. It really is a sad day, but you will have brighter days very soon. Taffy will be a great therapy dog. I wish you well.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am very sad to hear Taffy's results. What a blow for you both. I wish I could say I am surprised! I have been trying to tell other breeders for a long time about the LS dogs. Until Gorky, nobody was posting results and issues on PHR, so it seems some have been living in such a state of denial that it is frightening. I personally know four red breeders whose foundation stock or some of it goes back to the Leatherstocking dogs. There are so many issues...you are now the second person on this small group of people with a LS dog with hip problems. Gorky also experienced Addisons. I wrote a thread months ago about a couple who lost their less than two year old to an auto immune disease. That dog was from a breeder in Canada whose foundation is LS. I had a red girl, who thank God I did not have to deal with offspring from, who has six or seven mild epileptic seizures a day. I wish I had known more then about PHR so I could have reported it before I signed her ownership over to a friend who spayed her. I personally, with not a word of exaggeration, know of eight dogs from Leatherstocking lines who suffer from health issues that have either changed their life or have killed them.

I hope your reporting it makes a difference. Sadly, not enough! I have been screamed at on the phone when speaking to other breeders about "being careful" with their LS dogs. They do not want to hear it. They feel they were "blessed" with their breeding dog, which only cost them $700 US. They are getting terrific colour out of these dogs...terrific colour and God knows what else!

I know how much you love Taffy. This must be extremely difficult. But, bless you for doing the paperwork and getting the info to the right places which MIGHT help others in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

First of all - I think you are doing the right things and I am sorry the results were not better. However - she can still be an active poodle and a wonderful pet! 

A breeder cannot be over run with dogs and truly give their program and dogs the attention and time it needs. You have invested so much in Taffy beyond testing. I envy the person that gets to have her in their forever home. I love Taffy and her beautiful face! 

I would place her in an experienced dog home so she can thrive on doing the things you have trained her to do. As well as keeping in contact on her health and wellness over the years to come.

I know this is hard for you. Hang in there. Finding the right home will be peace of mind to you and your family.


----------



## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

I have two things to say firstly Leatherstocking poodles have lovely temperaments and have beautiful faces as witnessed by both Taffy, Gorky and Ivy.

Secondly, as the breeders are elderly I was wondering how long they would be continuing breeding, I noticed that there was another breeder in Adirondack Mountains called Hillside Standard Poodles hillsidestandardpoodles.weebly.com who said in their exact words they as a "family of 7 enjoyed the Standard Poodle so much we began breeding under the watchful eye of local Leather-stocking breeders whom have been breeding for over 50 years." I don't think they do health testing as well. So they might be a relative or have been handed the breeding program. I cannot verify this, but it is a thought. Buyers of future spoos should be wary of a breeder who does not do the necessary health testing.

Once again Debbie, I am so sorry about Taffy. We as owners bond so much with our pups.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Yes, Cherie, I have read the many threads and posts that you have put on PF regarding Leatherstocking. And, of course, I followed everything concerning Gorky.

I have had this in the back of my mind for a very long time and was dreading the day that bad news was going to eventually find me. It was easier to live in denial for that time and just love her and work with her.

But, the bad news finally came! It was not unexpected by us either. Although I will report the findings, I don't feel that it is enough; that it will reach as many people as I would like it too. I would love it if no one ever bought from them again. Where is the bad breeder police when you need them?

Yes, Kismet, at the age of 10 was very red. Nice! But, that is all that can be said for what they produce. Color is nothing without the rest of the package. God knows how many affected puppies have been put on the ground to suffer from one thing or the other passed on by the earlier generations. 

It's no wonder now that they do not do any testing of their dogs. If they did, they would have to shut their sorry excuse for a program down. It sickens me to think that they are still putting puppies on the ground that are going home with new owners who are going to experience the pain that Adrienne and I have gone through. Just because a few owners got lucky with their dogs does not excuse their lack of breeding responsibilities. Too many have not done well.

I was aware of that there was something called a byb when we bought Taffy, but I was ignorant of what that really meant or that these people were right up there at the top of the list of byb's. I am very angry right now and will have to go through the whole grieving process I'm sure. I know I will come out of this a better, stronger breeder in the end. 

I have great admiration for those who come here and spend the time to educate themselves before buying their first puppy.

I thank you both for your concern and kindness. This has certainly been a real bump in the road for us this week. We have learned a great deal from our involvement with the forum and have put that knowledge to good use. This is a mistake that will never be repeated by us again and we have been and will continue to educate people about how to identify good breeders and to know exactly what byb's and puppy millers are and to stay far, far away from them.

My top priority right now is to make sure that Taffy will remain sound and to get her into the best home possible as she deserves nothing less than that. My heart just aches over this._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Gorky said:


> I have two things to say firstly Leatherstocking poodles have lovely temperaments and have beautiful faces as witnessed by both Taffy, Gorky and Ivy.
> 
> Secondly, as the breeders are elderly I was wondering how long they would be continuing breeding, I noticed that there was another breeder in Adirondack Mountains called Hillside Standard Poodles hillsidestandardpoodles.weebly.com who said in their exact words they as a "family of 7 enjoyed the Standard Poodle so much we began breeding under the watchful eye of local Leather-stocking breeders whom have been breeding for over 50 years." I don't think they do health testing as well. So they might be a relative or have been handed the breeding program. I cannot verify this, but it is a thought. Buyers of future spoos should be wary of a breeder who does not do the necessary health testing.
> 
> Once again Debbie, I am so sorry about Taffy. We as owners bond so much with our pups.


I have heard through the rumour mill that there is a breeder who has lived in Canada and bred Standards and Doodles under various names and had been closed down time and time again, who is now living very close to Leatherstocking and receiving tutoring from the wife. The story is that when the old couple are both gone, this woman is going to take over. So, it is not going to end with their demise. The lines will continue, and if this rumour is true, things could get even worse (if that is possible!).


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Gorky said:


> I have two things to say firstly Leatherstocking poodles have lovely temperaments and have beautiful faces as witnessed by both Taffy, Gorky and Ivy.
> 
> Secondly, as the breeders are elderly I was wondering how long they would be continuing breeding, I noticed that there was another breeder in Adirondack Mountains called Hillside Standard Poodles hillsidestandardpoodles.weebly.com who said in their exact words they as a "family of 7 enjoyed the Standard Poodle so much we began breeding under the watchful eye of local Leather-stocking breeders whom have been breeding for over 50 years." I don't think they do health testing as well. So they might be a relative or have been handed the breeding program. I cannot verify this, but it is a thought. Buyers of future spoos should be wary of a breeder who does not do the necessary health testing.
> 
> Once again Debbie, I am so sorry about Taffy. We as owners bond so much with our pups.


_I have to say that this is disturbing news. Their mentors have no regard for the soundness of their dogs! 

I wonder what mentoring there is to do if you are not teaching new breeders to do the health testing and check hips before breeding. Anyone can put two dogs together and get puppies!_


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I am heartbroken to hear the news about your dear Taffy! I honestly can't imagine how you devoted breeders contend with the anguishes you do. I know it's only because quality breeders endure all they do that people like me are blessed and fortunate enough to have healthy poodles to love and adore.

My deepest wish is that Taffy never be debilitated by her congenital hip joint or other issues. You've given her a_ remarkable_ start in life; she will surely go on to be loved and spread love in the care of the lucky person you place her with. I think all the more highly of you for doing what's in everyone's best interests here. As Ollie put it so well, "no breeder can be overrun with dogs and do the best for their program and the dogs."

I just feel_ so badly_ for the blows you've been dealt lately! Until I joined this Forum I was so ignorant of just what it entails to be a high standards breeder! It's cold comfort I realize, but I truly feel in your debt and appreciate the sacrifice and heartbreak you willingly take on to make healthy poodles with wonderful temperaments possible.

Oh how I wish my husband would say the "yes" word to adding a second poodle! I would turn myself inside out to try to be worthy of having Taffy! I'm still working Chagall toward his CGC with the goal of doing reading therapy work at our local library. I suppose I must achieve that first before thinking of a adding to our "pack." My hope is Taffy will live a long, healthy life basking in love as you watch on, cheering and loving her as always. If I lived closer I'd be on your doorstep right now with soft tissues for wiping tears, good Belgium dark chocolate and an arsenal of side-splittingly funny movies to watch. I look forward to the days and times ahead when your world will be full of celebrations instead of sadness.


----------



## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh I'm so sorry!! What a bad few days you've had with both Billy not being able to be shown and now Taffy's hip problems. No one should have to go through that in one week. I hope that your week improves. Have a wonderful puppy cuddle and let their love and sweetness wash over you and help heal some of the upset and anger of the week.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i am sorry to hear the news about taffy. i would take her in a second as i have a slight crush on her. i love her pretty face so much.

i am so glad that i am not a breeder to have to make tough decisions like you are. but i respect you for being true to what you are doing. 

((hug))


----------



## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

First of all, I want to thank every one for their kind and thoughtful words. This has been hard for Debbie as our dogs are not only for our breeding program, but also our family members and loved friends. Knowing with our minds what we have to do and consoling that with our hearts is so different. I have felt terrible for Debbie with all this, it has been some blows, but she (and I) are pragmatists and will roll with the punches as we move forward. So, thank you very much for your support!!

Also, I mentioned this already but want to say it again, here. I am just floored that there is another "kennel" taking over from Leatherstocking!!!! I have written a letter to them, whether they like it or not, I don't care! It is the puppy that suffers the most from their ignorance and/or non caring. The puppy owners suffer terribly also, but the progeny are the ones who have to live (or die) with the pain of those "breeders" non concern. If done in ignorance, than change the way you do things, IF due to not caring, then I hope some day you feel the pain you cause!!


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am sorry to hear of your news. HD is bad news if you are in a breeding program. The good news though is that whatever great home takes her they can still do plenty of fun things. Agility is not out of the question- keeping strong muscle tone & light weight will keep her going a long way. I know this because I had a Mutt with Severe Hip Dysplasia. He didn't show outward signs of it but due to a pulled leg muscle & the advice to "let him rest" the muscle mass that he had holding his joints in place started to weeken & that is when I noticed a different limp to his leg. This was before he was 9 months old. He did though go on to get 10 titles in obedience, agility, tracking & other avenues. So, this is by no means a death sentence just a great loss to you & a breeding program. You will find a great home for her.


----------



## penny_ann (May 29, 2010)

So sorry to hear about Taffy. I can only imagine how hard it is to make that decision. Will be praying that you find her a great home.


----------



## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

So sorry to hear aobut your troubles. I just know that you will find the right loving home for beautiful Taffy. Oh, to win the lottery and to be able to have a hobby farm!!!


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am so sorry about Taffy's results.  I think you are doing the right thing finding her a new home if you want to be a breeder. Don't feel badly about it, she will get an awesome home. 

If my puppies parents were cleared of all those bad things should I get her tested? My vet said since the Penn hips on my puppies parents (also OFA was done- why both?) and the other clearings (eyes, etcetera) were good, I shouldn't need to bother with it unless I was going to breed her. Is that right? 

I am kind of interested in breeding her if she turns out nicely, but am unsure. She is just a baby right now. I bought her as a pet and she is a cream. I don't think people breed creams (??). She may be smallish, too. I guess I shouldn't worry about it right now, but I need to think about spaying. 

I used to show and breed a few litters of boxers and miss the babies, so have been tossing thoughts around. I suppose I need to educate myself more about poodle breeding and if it would even be ethical to breed a cream dog. 

Do any of you get CHIC? I specifically went in search of a breeder who did full testing and preferably had CHIC numbers because my beloved poodle Clara had so many problems and died at just 11. I was heartbroken. I wanted to avoid all that turmoil and heartache with this puppy. I know it isn't a guarantee, but I thought my chances of a healthy dog were greater. 

I think testing is very important, but is testing desired in a pet?


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> I am so sorry about Taffy's results.  I think you are doing the right thing finding her a new home if you want to be a breeder. Don't feel badly about it, she will get an awesome home.
> 
> If my puppies parents were cleared of all those bad things should I get her tested? My vet said since the Penn hips on my puppies parents (also CFA was done- why both?) and the other clearings (eyes, etcetera) were good, I shouldn't need to bother with it unless I was going to breed her. Is that right?
> 
> ...


I don't think most people test their pets unless there is a specific reason (the dog exhibits disease). Some genetic test results can guarantee that your puppy doesn't have the disease (such as PRA in minis, if both parents test clear, your puppy is genetically clear and will not develop the disease). But good or excellent hips on the parents do not guarantee that the puppies will have good or excellent hips. Of course, generations of good or excellent hips behind your puppy gives you a good chance that your puppy will have decent hips.

There is nothing wrong with breeding a cream poodle, but if you bought your puppy on a limited registration contract (as I imagine you did if you purchased her from a reputable breeder), you are not legally allowed to breed her, even if you were to show her to her championship, which would be quite a bit more difficult than showing a boxer, due to the coat requirements and high level of competiton in standard poodles. This is provided she even turns out well enough to be shown. If you were serious about it, you could approach the breeder about revising your contract, but in all honesty, I doubt most breeders would do this.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

She wasn't purchased on a limited registration contract, but on a full AKC and UKC one. Some of the other puppies were sold on a limited, I believe. The breeder has been encouraging me to show her UKC since she is a nice looking puppy or to look into agility since she has a preformance poodle background on one side. The breeder told me she would likely be too small for winning in the AKC shows because bigger tends to win there. She appears to be a very nice puppy conformation wise with a nice head, feet, back and gate, but she is only 4 months old at this point. Things can change rapidly. 

Thank you for your reply and I am sorry about the highjack.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Health testing and breeding*



spoospirit said:


> _
> I received Taffy's OFA hip results yesterday. On top of several other issues that we know exist, she failed her hip test. She received a borderline hip joint conformation result. She has slight subluxation and shows unilateral pathology on the left side. I could have her retested in six months but there is no point.
> _


Dear Spoospirit;

So sorry to hear about Taffy's hips. Glad to see you are going to do the right thing by not breeding her.

Hip dysplasia leads to PAIN. From http://www.poodleforum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=169183

While there is a severe form of hip dysplasia that affects young dogs (less than one year of age), signs of this disease are most common in older dogs. The loose fit at the hip joint will be present in young dogs, but it may take years for the other changes (such as osteoarthritis) to cause* pain*. Your dog may be painful after exercise, have difficulty with stairs, or even have difficulty getting up. You may only notice this once in a while, but over time you will find it getting worse. There is *no* cure, but your dog’s pain and lameness may be reduced by making sure that s/he is not overweight, restricting exercise, and using pain-relieving medications and/or alternative therapies such as acupuncture.

I must say that letters to puppymillers do not usually make a difference but *educating* others poodle buyers will. Post your results and experience everywere you can.

Breeding is a high-stakes game and the *odds* favour _Mother Nature_. By only buying health tested poodles and educating other to only buy health tested poodles/pets we will, eventually, put the puppymillers out of business or make it less profitable for them to breed.

Breeding should be about breeding the *best* to the *best* not just because a dog "looks" good. Every breeder has setbacks. Buying only from breeders that fully health test is the best way to increase the odds of only breeding happy health puppies.

Again Kudos to you for health testing and good luck in the future of your breeding program!


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

outwest said:


> She wasn't purchased on a limited registration contract, but on a full AKC and UKC one. Some of the other puppies were sold on a limited, I believe. The breeder has been encouraging me to show her UKC since she is a nice looking puppy or to look into agility since she has a preformance poodle background on one side. The breeder told me she would likely be too small for winning in the AKC shows because bigger tends to win there. She appears to be a very nice puppy conformation wise with a nice head, feet, back and gate, but she is only 4 months old at this point. Things can change rapidly.
> 
> Thank you for your reply and I am sorry about the highjack.


_You have a lot of time yet to see how your baby turns out. You should spend this time enjoying her to the fullest and learning as much as you can about the standard poodle breed. 

Poodles are highly political and not easy to show. There is soooo much involved. Coat care is critical and very time consuming and can be somewhat limiting to your pups activities as well. Poodles of color, meaning creams, apricots, etc., are not as popular in the ring as black, white, silver, so they are harder to finish. It can be consume you both financially, physically and mentally. It is certainly not for the faint of heart.

Was this litter evaluated? Do you know if this puppy was picked as a possible show prospect? 

As far as testing, if everything were to fall into place for you, there are many threads on the forum regarding testing that you could take time to read. 
_


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _You have a lot of time yet to see how your baby turns out. You should spend this time enjoying her to the fullest and learning as much as you can about the standard poodle breed.
> 
> Poodles are highly political and not easy to show. There is soooo much involved. Coat care is critical and very time consuming and can be somewhat limiting to your pups activities as well. Poodles of color, meaning creams, apricots, etc., are not as popular in the ring as black, white, silver, so they are harder to finish. It can be consume you both financially, physically and mentally. It is certainly not for the faint of heart.
> 
> ...


DITTO! When you experience a Spoo in full blown show coat in full blown coat change, even when you have been through it before, you ask yourself "Am I out of my mind????????????" If I worked outside the home, I would have had a super difficult time keeping up with Quincy's coat. The money is huge and we have done what we have accomplished in basically four weekends. Puppy whelping, rearing and marketing is another story. You have to be able to devote 24/7 to the puppies...someone needs to be with them nearly every minute while they are with you. Breeding a dog is not something to be taken lightly, even if your dog is an awesome specimen of the breed. Here is Canada it is nearly $1,000 to properly test a dog prior to breeding it's first litter. It really is not for the feint of heart. Big time work, big time money, lots of things to consider!


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts. Poodles are certainly not as easy to show as my boxers were. AKC shows are all highly political now. It wasn't nearly as bad 20 years ago, which is why I assume the UKC shows are getting more popular? You can not hire a professional handler for those.

My last poodle had hip and knee issues. She was fine up until about 8 or 9 years old and then she had to slow down. As long as she didn't play too hard she was alright. If she ran after the ball too much she was lame for several days afterwards. In the last couple years of her life she had to get up slowly in the mornings, but once she stretched herself out she was alright.


----------

