# New Poodle With Issues



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

mydogdory said:


> Also, does anyone know if neutering will help his growling and "licking?"


It will probably help both. He'll be too tender to growl at ANYBODY for a while and certainly disinclined to lick there!  lol

But seriously... dunno abt down there but here the SPCA will schedule us in for a low-cost neutering. Maybe check that. 

Dogs will not growl forever. I'd bring a male friend over sometime, who would completely ignore the dog, but sit down for a normal chat with u, not waving his hands, raising his voice, or laughing too loud. 

Probably the dog will stop growling within a few minutes. If u continue to ignore it, generally they will quietly move up behind yr male friend to investigate them. 

U have some time. Don't try to rush this by any move toward the dog. Let it dictate the pace of the approach. Even if it takes a few nites.

It's safer for him to make no move toward the dog than to make the wrong one.

And have fun, eh? It's fascinating to watch a dog learn!


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## Dallasminis (Feb 6, 2011)

God bless this poor little guy. Well, I second what Country Boy says. And, remember, it takes time...lots of time...I'm so glad he has you to help him with his problems....!


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

He is probably growling because he is scared, especially of men since they teased him.... and who knows what else. 

Most (if not all) behaviorists will agree on one thing, neutering will make a fearful dog even more scared so it will probably make his growling worse. I think you should deal with his behavior issues, make him more relaxed and less scared before you get rid of his hormones. 

This is only one of many articles you can find on the effect of neutering on fearful dogs: 


> One of my concerns in neutering a dog showing aggressive behaviour is if that behaviour is based on anxiety or fear (these are the most common reasons for dogs showing aggressive behaviour from the cases I see). I have seen dogs that the owners have described as “getting worse” after neutering and I believe that this could happen as the hormones which would partly provide ‘confidence’ to the dog in these situations are removed so the dog is in a heightened state of anxiety / fear.
> 
> read whole article here


I know my previous little rescue dog Bonito got worse after he was castrated....... that was actually the reason why "his family" got rid of him, and dumped him in the dog rescue _"he got aggressive and would fight with their other dog after he was castrated"_
When I got him he was a nervous little boy, barking at everyone, he was especially scared of men, but with time and positive reinforcement he got better...... but he always remained worried.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> It will probably help both. He'll be too tender to growl at ANYBODY for a while and certainly disinclined to lick there!  lol


You think? 

If he's in pain he will growl even more as to discourage anyone from approaching him..... and dogs do tend to lick wounds too, so unless he gets the Elizabethan collar, he will lick..... and if he gets that collar, he will be even more nervous for not being able to lick.....


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I am so sorry your poodle has these issues. When I was a child we got a minipoodle that was unneutered. We had a problem house breaking him and we too thought it was cute to teach him to growl while we play hit each other. We were plain ignorant about how to raise a dog. He got worse until we finally realized our mistake. By then he was so violent we were all afraid of him and eventually put him to sleep. I think neutering him would have helped. Maybe an animal behavorist might have helped undo our unintentional bad training. I cannot believe how badly we treated him not because we were trying to be mean. Just because we were stupid. I like to think people are more aware of how to treat pets now and how important neutering is. I know I have learned better.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> Just because we were stupid. I like to think people are more aware of how to treat pets now *and how important neutering is.*


People (vets) in the west (UK, NA) are pushing neutering so much, while more and more research is proving how it does more harm than good, especially if it is done on too young animals..... Makes no sense to me... they probably just want the money from the procedure. 

Fear related aggression *gets worse* with neutering! Ask any behavior expert they will tell you.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

Wild Kitten said:


> People (vets) in the west (UK, NA) are pushing neutering so much, while more and more research is proving how it does more harm than good, especially if it is done on too young animals..... Makes no sense to me... they probably just want the money from the procedure.
> 
> Fear related aggression *gets worse* with neutering! Ask any behavior expert they will tell you.


I think neutering too early is very sad. I like to do it around 6 or 7 months. Most pet contracts from breeders require neutering. I know my vets are NOT just trying to make money when they suggest neutering. You may not agree with a vet's recommendation to neuter, but that doesn't make them wrong, and I doubt there is universal agreement of behavorists about neutering. If I had an aggressive dog I would listen to both sides and make a decision, but I personally would neuter. Timing is the big question. Not all growling is fear based.


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## mydogdory (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies!! I will take all your thoughts into consideration! I forgot to mention, I have had him for two months.


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

I doubt the licking will subside with neutering. If they like to lick, they like to lick. I've never seen it decrease with a neuter; I am not sure why the vet said that, but I am inclined to think it's just a guess. It's certainly not hormones. I live with multiple intact males and one neutered male, and the only boy who licks is the neutered (at five months) male.

The others are correct that neutering tends to worsen many behavioral issues. The only issues neutering can fix are aggression with other male dogs (sometimes) and wandering (again, only sometimes). 

For dogs, growling is "please, back off. I don't want to bite you." It's NOT "I want to bite you." So growling is not unhealthy, and it's not a sign that the dog is a bad dog. It's a sign that the dog thinks something is threatening and he's hoping it will go away. 

Has there been any reduction in the growling in the two months you've had him? Or is it as bad or worse as the day he arrived?


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

At 6 years old, a lot of what he is doing is habit. Neutering probably will have little effect except make him sore for a bit. I think I would work more on trust issues than hormones at this point. 

Ignore growling (to a point, make sure he's not giving a warning) and reward calm behavior. I have a dog here that will be 11 in July, he was placed with us as an older pup because his owners were afraid of him. He was picked on so much by the older dog that he is now terrified of dogs and growls constantly at them. We finally learned he's just a grumbly old man kind of dog and even my other dogs ignore it. 

Your little man may never learn to trust men complately, but if you give him a 'safe place' (bed,crate,etc) where he can at least relax, maybe the growling will lesson. He needs you to step up and protect him from all the imaginary scaries out there. Work on that and the rest will get better.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

MiniPoo said:


> I think neutering too early is very sad. I like to do it around 6 or 7 months.


even 6-7 months is too young, they should be allowed to mature completely...... if you must neuter then they should reach maturity, at least over 12-15 months. 
Neutering before the dog matures can have many health impacts too, and it is scientifically proven. 

Here's a good article about it. 




MiniPoo said:


> I doubt there is universal agreement of behavorists about neutering. If I had an aggressive dog I would listen to both sides and make a decision, but I personally would neuter. Timing is the big question. Not all growling is fear based.


Most behaviourists actually agree on this, not all aggression can be treated with castration. If it is fear related aggression, it will most probably get worse. 
If the cause of aggression is something else then neutering might help. 


Obviously, this dog is 6 years old, so he is mature.... but his growling by the sounds of it is coming from fear, so I personally would try to resolve this, maybe with a help of a good behaviour expert before considering neutering.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

I think it is wonderful of you taking a rescue. Here is a reading list of excellent training books. 
http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...d-based-training-reading-list.html#post192149

Take a look at Kikopup's videos on YouTube. She has many videos on many topics. 

And exactly like you said....no wonder the dog has problems with people after what went on in those videos. I often wonder if that's what those idiots think is fun and cute, what the hell do they do to the poor dog when they're angry with him? Wishing you lots of luck and patience and looking forward to some pictures.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

As mentioned some dogs seem to like to growl. Often they have learned it will keep terrifying people or dogs away from them and it means I am scared not I am aggressive. Or it can be like my brothers Pekeapoo who just plain growled instead of barking.... The hard part with a new dog is figuring out WHY they are growling and reacting in an appropriate manner.
My Kizz (mixie rescue) came to me with man issues. She was aggressive and very protective of me and any children around her. Her first impulse was to get between us and the MAN and shove us back away from him... Tall, domineering men with beards were her biggest trigger. Once we figured out what she was reacting to (remember that time and observation) we had a friend come over that fit that description and slowly make friends with her. It took time but now unless a man moves quickly and aggressively she is fine with most of them even going so far as to beg for petting . BUT it did take time it was almost 3 years before I would trust her with a son's friend who is ADD and makes rapid nervous movements for no reason. 

IF the licking is excessive check to make sure he doesn't have something wrong down there before starting to work on it as a nervous habit. Considering that they thought growling was cute there is really no way of telling what else they did to the poor baby...

Good luck with his rehab, I am sure he will blossom under your care into a very special dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds as if this poor dog had a great deal to put up with in his previous home - I think he deserves credit for just growling, and not moving straight to biting! I hope that in time, if you respect his signals and give him space, stepping in to protect him from the things he finds scary while also working on gradually habituating him to them, he will become more relaxed and comfortable. It's a good sign that he is not scared of you - at least he has a safe zone to retreat to.

Lots of excellent advice on working with a fearful dog here: Helping fearful dogs | Fearfuldogs' Blog

On the licking, I tend to use distraction - a good chew or Kong as a replacement, or a cheerful That's Enough and a quick fun game. On the bed I use the Settle Down cue that they both know. Or simply find him a comfortable spot out of earshot where he can slurp without disturbing you! He will soon get the message that


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First, thank you for getting this dog out of a less than stellar situation. Anyone who thinks teasing a dog to get him to growl, frankly, probably deserved to get bitten. That he didn't escalate to biting works in your favor. I would, as others, suggest deal with the growling before changing much else. Desensitizing training where a man is present quietly with no waving arms or other big gestures is the way to start. You should reward quiet acceptance of the man being around. Later as he gets more settled, have the man reward the good behavior. Poodles tend to be big lickers, so I would just distract him from it when it bothers you. Lily knows what no lick means. She hears it a lot.

As for neutering dealing with or exacerbating the concerns you have, your dog does have circulating androgens, but not nearly at the levels he did when he was 2 or 3. I don't know that you would see much change in behavior for the better from neutering him right away. Once that is done you can't go backwards either. Let him settle in with you and try the other methods suggested by various folks here.

Good luck.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Wild Kitty has it 100% right.

Licking is not going to stop because, hey, he's gotta wash it off eventually, right? Even girls lick their privates, spayed or otherwise.

I also have a "growler." It's Jack's way of letting me know he's worried/insecure about something. He does eventually stop once he realize the scary thing (usually new people or dogs) isn't going to hurt him. These guys are little and the world seems big and scary to some of them.

And I am keeping Jack intact for as long as he has this fear issue because of fearful dogs who get neutered get much worse. 

My females are spayed and I have no intentions of breeding him, but I want to desensitize him with lots of positive training before I even go down that road. 

Marking, humping, etc is all a behavioral/training issue, and can be stopped with redirection and training. 

Hope this helps. 

Give your guy a good month -3 months to settle in and get used to everyone. Once he realizes no one is going to play the "mean growl game" anymore, he won't have to worry so much and be on the defensive. 
Honestly, I don't understand why people think that's funny. Ugh!

Keep us posted on his progress. And yu could also try reading _Click to Calm_ to learn how to desensitize him. It's based on aggressive dogs, but fearful dogs will respond to the same desensitizing. For Jack, string cheese was the food that he could be brave enough to take even when he was very scared. 
He's made leaps and bounds of progress, which is awesome.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> It will probably help both. He'll be too tender to growl at ANYBODY for a while and certainly disinclined to lick there!  lol
> 
> But seriously...





Wild Kitten said:


> You think?


I hope u noticed the wink and the 'lol'... not to mention the 'But seriously'.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Countryboy said:


> I hope u noticed the wink and the 'lol'... not to mention the 'But seriously'.


I have....... I just didn't find it funny....


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

is it possible that the licking is so persistent that you might even consider it ocd? because it sounds like that's a possibility. from the environment you describe earlier, there may have been lots of reasons feeding into the development of ocd behavior. i would say consult not just a vet, but a qualified veterinary behaviorist. glad someone wants to help this guy out.


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## mydogdory (Jun 9, 2013)

Thank you everyone with all you input! If neutering won't help him, what will? He's growling has gotten a bit better but his "hormones" have gotten worse!! He literally tries and rapes Dory. She hates it and I hate it. It gives my a headache! lol


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Neutering might not change anything or it might make things better or it could make things worse. I think I would suggest hiring a behaviorist before you do anything else. In the meantime, make sure that unless they are supervised closely they are not together. You need to keep Dory safe.


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## lilypoo (Jul 25, 2011)

I agree with those who say neutering won't help either issue without addressing the issues themselves separately first.

If they are lickers, they are lickers. Lily is a licker...I hate the sound, sooooo gross. If she wants to lick when she's not around me, fine. If she's licking near me, I just make her stop. Of course I trained her to stop with a look and me grunting "uh uh!" Now if she's licking I only need to give her "the look." 

If I were in your place, I'd try socialization treats--have strangers, especially males, treat him when they meet/greet. Provided you don't think he'll bite.

Poor guy! How awful that he was teased that way! He's lucky to have found you!


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## mydogdory (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for your replies!  lily cd re, I totally agree! lol I am defiantly not leaving them together alone! My poor puppy! lol

lilypoo, yep. The licking is incredible... lol I think hes starting to get them picture that I don't like it. I will have to tell him to stop 2 or 3 times and he will. It use to be like 10 times.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am glad to hear that you feel as though you are making incremental progress with at least one of the issues. I am sure you recognize that change will be slow with this guy. There is a lot to overcome. I do like Lilypoo's suggestion about trying to have other people treat him. If it isn't clearly safe for them to hand him treats, maybe they can just toss treats towards him and gradually increase how close he has to come to get them before treats from the hand. This strategy worked very well for me when I worked with a couple who had just adopted a small older dog after she spent almost 2 years in various shelters. She had no confidence and was afraid of everything and everyone except the wife. Before I could possibly teach the dog anything I had to get her to interact with me.


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