# Anyone heard of Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles?



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I have seen them advertise. Glanced at their site and wasnt particularly impressed. I personally want a breeder sho does ALL of the OFA recommended testing for the breed, including genetic tests (the cheap part that this breeder seems to do), hips and eyes (expensive, but where many dogs fail), and proof the breeder "does something" with the dogs - either a dog sport or conformation to prove the dog is sound enough mentally and physically to be bred. 

I would especially be interested in seeing hip testing for a breeder that specializes in oversized poodles. 

Here is a great resource put together by one of the members to a bunch of breeders who health test by location- there may be one near you.








🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hi OP, FWOP gives good advice above. Just wanted to add that I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. It sounds like your pair were very close, and I hope your surviving dog grows equally close to her next sibling.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I have seen them advertise. Glanced at their site and wasnt particularly impressed. I personally want a breeder sho does ALL of the OFA recommended testing for the breed, including genetic tests (the cheap part that this breeder seems to do), hips and eyes (expensive, but where many dogs fail), and proof the breeder "does something" with the dogs - either a dog sport or conformation to prove the dog is sound enough mentally and physically to be bred.
> 
> I would especially be interested in seeing hip testing for a breeder that specializes in oversized poodles.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! I appreciate it.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Liz said:


> Hi OP, FWOP gives good advice above. Just wanted to add that I'm so very sorry to hear about your loss. It sounds like your pair were very close, and I hope your surviving dog grows equally close to her next sibling.


So sweet of you, thank you! Although he is no longer with me I'm so grateful a Standard came into my life. They are such amazing dogs!!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Welcome! We are happy to have you and I hope that you will soon find your new family member to help ease the pain of loss. I have examined the mentioned breeder. I agree with FWoP. Below are my personal impressions and thoughts. Everybody has different priorities and I would urge you to do your research and make the best decision for you personally.

I looked through the website (which is horrible to navigate!) and there are a few things I find unsettling.

They do not seem to mention that they hip test their adults, but it is possible they pennhip test them. I'm not sure. If I was interested in a puppy I would _require _documentation to show the parents are hip tested through pennhip or ofa.

They list in their puppy contract that they *only cover hip dysplasia if the puppy is pennhip tested between 4 and 5 months of age* and diagnosed based on this. I find this _utterly ridiculous_ and I would _not feel okay with this_. This is an expensive procedure that owners are only going to do (to fulfill contract) if they believe their puppy is dysplastic by 4 mo of age. Which would require really extreme dysplasia. The contract basically guarantees that they won't actually have to cover for any dysplasia while still making it sound like they do.

They also have some weird things said about color. They use colors not accepted by AKC like "champagne" and they refer to dogs as "sable" that do not look sable to me. But it is very hard to tell because they breed liver pointed and black pointed dogs together all the time. They claim that akc considers red and apricot to be a faded form of brown (it's not and they don't) and claim that AKC says that reds and apricots _should _have liver pigmented noses (they don't). They claim that black noses are erroneously preferred in the show ring and that liver noses are actually correct. I'm pretty sure that's all rubbish. Here is the AKC standard's excerpt about nose pigmentation.

"Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable."

So I don't get where they're coming from. If you're breeding nonstandard colors then just... say it? Don't pretend you're the only one breeding correct pigmentation and all the other breeders are doing it wrong! Obviously they are not breeding show poodles but I'm not a huge fan of the conformation of their dogs based on face structure and amount of loose skin on them, but it's hard to say without seeing a proper stacked photo. They are clearly breeding for size above anything else.

Lastly... that's a high price tag on their dogs. It's either $2k or $2.2k (two different prices mentioned) for limited akc registration puppies. For that price you could get a dog from a top of the line breeder with champion titled dogs in conformation and performance. That does _all the recommended health testing._


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I've looked at this breeder before. They lost me right here:

"We LOVE our 

ROYAL Standard Poodles"


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Welcome! We are happy to have you and I hope that you will soon find your new family member to help ease the pain of loss. I have examined the mentioned breeder. I agree with FWoP. Below are my personal impressions and thoughts. Everybody has different priorities and I would urge you to do your research and make the best decision for you personally.
> 
> I looked through the website (which is horrible to navigate!) and there are a few things I find unsettling.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! All great information. I appreciate it!!


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## thefrenchdip (Dec 4, 2020)

Hi, we actually purchased a poodle from Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles a couple of years ago. Our experience has been great! Sammy has been a great dog! We didn't get him for show or anything, but just as a younger companion for our older (11 year old at the time) cockapoo rescue. 

He hasn't had any health issues and we had a great experience with training him and he has been great with our toddler, they're bff's! I have no idea about his height or anything, but I do know that he is pretty tall for sure and is 77lbs as of last week at the last vet visit. 

The upper pic is from when he was a little over 1 year and a few lbs less than he is now, but yes as a whole we had a pleasant experience and couldn't be happier.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

thefrenchdip said:


> Hi, we actually purchased a poodle from Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles a couple of years ago. Our experience has been great! Sammy has been a great dog! We didn't get him for show or anything, but just as a younger companion for our older (11 year old at the time) cockapoo rescue.
> 
> He hasn't had any health issues and we had a great experience with training him and he has been great with our toddler, they're bff's! I have no idea about his height or anything, but I do know that he is pretty tall for sure and is 77lbs as of last week at the last vet visit.
> 
> ...


What a cutie! Thanks for sharing.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

ihavestandards said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm looking to adopt another poodle and I'm curious if anyone has heard of this breeder: Good Dog! Go Home!
> 
> ...


If you live in the southwest (AZ, NM, CO, UT) - I have a list of recommended poodle breeders that I send to people who request it. It also has a section about genetic diseases for which breeding stock should be tested. I am listed on the Enchanted Poodle Club web site as the breeder referral contact.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Johanna said:


> If you live in the southwest (AZ, NM, CO, UT) - I have a list of recommended poodle breeders that I send to people who request it. It also has a section about genetic diseases for which breeding stock should be tested. I am listed on the Enchanted Poodle Club web site as the breeder referral contact.


Thanks I sent you a message.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just from the home page I see two things that I am not impressed by: "royal standards" is a gimic for marketing; and the dog featured at the home page has terrible pigmentation. I am happy to hear there is at least one member who has a nice family dog from this breeder, but they really should step up and do all of the appropriate testing even if they are breeding for the pet market.


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## Poodle Joan (Jul 18, 2021)

ihavestandards said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm looking to adopt another poodle and I'm curious if anyone has heard of this breeder: Good Dog! Go Home!
> 
> ...


Hi Liz,
Thinking that you have probably found your new poodle friend from the date on your message, but I felt compelled to reply. I have 3 amazing poodle pups from Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles. I have had standards my whole life and purchased my current home with the plan of getting 1 standard. I was so impressed with my first poodle girl from RMLPP that I went on to get 2 sweet boys over the next year. I now have two 3 year olds and a 2 year old and as you can imagine, life is exciting at my house!
My pups ARE big, but they are refined, elegant, and have the athleticism that standards are known for. They are smart, silly, an sweet natured and readily pose for photos with strangers wherever we go. None of them have had any heath problems and all have heartier digestive systems than my previous "show quality" standards! I have no desire to show my pups, but still wanted elegant, intelligent, beautiful, and athletic pups that I could take anywhere and know that I could trust in any situation. That is exactly what I found with my Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles! Unfortunately poodle people can be a bit snobby about the breed and what constitutes a "proper poodle." I looked long and hard until I found RMLPP and felt it was the perfect fit for me. There is no doubt that their breeding dogs have a wonderful life with room to run and actually BE DOGS in Montana. That was so important to me when choosing a breeder. 
I guess the bottom line is that we have trust our instincts and think long and hard about what is truly important to us as poodle parents. If you don't have your pup (or pups!) yet, I encourage you to take another look at Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles!
Joan


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Eh, this right here is enough to turn me off of them

*"If you purchase one of our puppies, please note that OUR CONTRACT PROHIBITS YOU from vaccinating your dog with anything other than Distemper, Parvo, Bordetella and Rabies."*

I'm fine with you _recommending _a vaccination protocol, but I'm going to vaccinate my dogs for lepto, and if they need to be boarded or go to competitions, for the canine flu. Both of those diseases are extremely common in my area.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

ihavestandards said:


> Thanks I sent you a message.


I cannot find any way to read messges on this site, so email me at [email protected].


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, Joan.

Somewhere between the snobs (as you say ) and the well-intentioned novices, are the vast majority of us: people who care first and foremost about the health and longevity of our dear dogs, and also about the preservation of the poodle breed characteristics we love so much.

I hope you’ll take the time to get to know us here on Poodle Forum. Like I did, I’m sure you’ll discover this forum is a treasure trove of wisdom and kindness.

Thanks for sharing your poodles with us.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Johanna said:


> I cannot find any way to read messges on this site, so email me at [email protected].


To read messages, click your profile picture in the upper right corner of the screen and select “Conversations.” That’s where you’ll find any messages that have been sent to you.

If you’d like me to send you a test message, let me know.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Poodle Joan said:


> Hi Liz,
> Thinking that you have probably found your new poodle friend from the date on your message, but I felt compelled to reply. I have 3 amazing poodle pups from Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles. I have had standards my whole life and purchased my current home with the plan of getting 1 standard. I was so impressed with my first poodle girl from RMLPP that I went on to get 2 sweet boys over the next year. I now have two 3 year olds and a 2 year old and as you can imagine, life is exciting at my house!
> My pups ARE big, but they are refined, elegant, and have the athleticism that standards are known for. They are smart, silly, an sweet natured and readily pose for photos with strangers wherever we go. None of them have had any heath problems and all have heartier digestive systems than my previous "show quality" standards! I have no desire to show my pups, but still wanted elegant, intelligent, beautiful, and athletic pups that I could take anywhere and know that I could trust in any situation. That is exactly what I found with my Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles! Unfortunately poodle people can be a bit snobby about the breed and what constitutes a "proper poodle." I looked long and hard until I found RMLPP and felt it was the perfect fit for me. There is no doubt that their breeding dogs have a wonderful life with room to run and actually BE DOGS in Montana. That was so important to me when choosing a breeder.
> I guess the bottom line is that we have trust our instincts and think long and hard about what is truly important to us as poodle parents. If you don't have your pup (or pups!) yet, I encourage you to take another look at Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles!
> ...


Thank you Joan! What lovely pups you have!!!


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## Sarahjt (12 mo ago)

Hi there, *ihavestandards* (loL) did you end up getting a dog from RMLPP in the end? I was reading the thread and wondering what the outcome was. We just lost our beloved barely 5yo phantom to lymphoma recently, so health concerns are now a priority. Not sure if Lymphoma is common to poodles but a piece of our souls broke off with him - super special dog. This breeder looks like lovely dogs for pets, which is what we want.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF!

I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. It's devastating anytime but to be so young...we feel your loss by remembering our own.

I'm not speaking for ihavestandards but if health is a priority for you, this isn't a breeder I'd choose for myself and so wouldn't recommend to others.

First, to give a brief answer your question about cancer in poodles. Lymphoma, among other cancers, are known in poodles, as with many other breeds and mixes, but I don't think "common" in poodles.

From The American Animal Hospital Association:
*Lymphoma *_is one of the most common cancers seen in dogs, accounting for 20% of all canine cancers. Dogs are two- to five-times more likely than people to develop lymphoma, which can affect any breed at any age...

Most commonly affected breed: golden retrievers_

There's more to this of course and a lot of medical research-based information can be found searching thru Veterinary teaching university sites where much research is being done and in the veterinarian hospital and practice sites.
Unfortunately, cancers aren't usually testable because the gene or genes responsible haven't yet been identified. There may be a heritable factor so it's best to work with a breeder who can show thru at least 3 generations of breeding that there's low incidence.

------

For the rest of my comments, which will cover only some of the biggest cautions for me, I'll refer to their website and then my comments.

From their website
The ROYAL STANDARD POODLE

My comments
There is no variety of poodle identified as "Royal" in the breed standard. This is considered a marketing term.
The poodle breed standard is written by the official breed club, The Poodle Club of America (since 1931 I believe).

There are three varieties, Toy, Miniature, and Standard.
Toy has no lower limit but is up to 10" at the shoulder. Typical range is 7-10".
Miniature has a stated range of 10"-15" at the shoulder.
Standard has no upper limit (in the US and Canada, and some other countries), starts at 15" and is typically 21-27" at the shoulder.

When breeding for undersize or oversize as a priority rather than soundness of structure, health, and temperament, health and structure are frequently negatively affected. At the least, orthopedic disorders may increase by shrinking or stretching the normal genetic range.

From their website
*OUR HEALTHCARE PRACTICES*
We purchased all of our now breeding adults from professional, ethical and long established AKC Registered Standard Poodle breeders

My comments
Breeders are not "registered" with the AKC, dogs are.
There are two breeder programs the AKC sponsors which require certain terms to be met, Breeder of Merit and Bred with Heart, but those titles are for certification of meeting the terms of those programs.

From their website
*our Royal Standard Poodle breeding adults all of whom carry genetics for exceptional size. *

My comments
see above

From their website
*WE TAKE HEALTHCARE SERIOUSLY *

My comments
The Poodle Club of America has a recommended set of tests for known issues within each poodle variety to be done on the breeding pair before breeding
This business is doing none of them so far as can be seen on the site.
(this business does require the same testing proof - PennHip - from the buyer however if they suspect one of these conditions affects the puppy)

_The OFA created the Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) by partnering with participating parent clubs to research and maintain information on the health issues prevalent in specific breeds. We’ve established a recommended protocol for breed-specific health screenings. Dogs tested in accordance with that protocol are recognized with a CHIC number and certification.

Standard Poodle Health testing recommendations_

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚

A lot of breeders are starting to do some genetic testing only, which is nice, and for the toy and miniature actually includes one of their recommended tests but doing only genetic testing is not considered best practice by the breed club.
No test recommended for Standards is a genetic test.

From their website
*We follow DR. DODDS VACCINATION PROTOCOL*

My comments
They do follow the minimal protocol but then do not allow you or your own vet to make informed decisions about the potential need for others, to the point of rendering the health contract void

From Dr. Dodds
2016 DODDS VACCINATION PROTOCOL FOR DOGS

The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs *where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable.* *The schedule is one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It’s a matter of professional judgment and choice.*

From their website
*OUR CONTRACT PROHIBITS YOU from vaccinating your dog with anything other than Distemper, Parvo, Bordetella and Rabies.****

From their website
We recognize a direct correlation between the epidemic cancer and autoimmune disease rates in Dogs - and the over vaccination of Dogs and Puppies!

Food allergies, skin conditions, epilepsy, autoimmune diseases, including Addisons, and cancer - have ALL been correlated to over vaccinating Dogs and Puppies.

My comments
Vaccination/overvaccination may be one factor but there is more such as environment, heredity, age, etc.

From their website
Veterinarians, just like doctors, are financially incentivized to have all of their patients "fully vaccinated."

My comments
What is the proof for this statement?

From their website
...as a preemptive surgical precaution to the often very quick and painful death that can happen out of the blue with "BLOAT", our contract now MANDATES that you will have your puppy's stomach stapled or sewn down at the time of spay or neuter.

My comments
As with a couple of their health practices, gastropexy is often recommended for deep-chested breeds to reduce the possibility of gastric torsion which can kill, and very quickly, but will not prevent bloat.
Remember, they will void the contract if you don't.

From their contract: (they are within their rights to make any item a requirement, question is, is it tenable for you, the buyer)
D.) In order to safeguard against Hip Dysplasia created by nutritional deficiencies and or overwork / stress before PUPPY’s growth plates have matured, BUYER shall: 
(a.) refrain from: any strenuous or extended hiking, bike riding with or running, pulling of or placing of weights by / upon / and or with PUPPY until after PUPPY is older than 2 years of age;
and (b.) feed PUPPY a *"non grain free" dog food* rated at 5 stars on www.dogfoodadvisor.com, as low grade dog foods will cause nutritional deficiencies and health issues in your Standard Poodle, 
and (c.) BUYER shall not feed PUPPY any PURINA dog food products nor any dog food containing GMO Corn, Wheat or Soy.

From their website
The entirety of Section V covers Base Narrow "lower canines"
Any medical intervention prior to 12m old will void the contract.
any early intervention / surgery to any "Base Narrow" tooth to any PUPPY who is younger than 12 months of age will render all health guarantees contained in this contract NULL AND VOID; and,

After 12m, if the buyer does all required procedures to prove the condition, along with any treatment or surgery that is needed, the breeder will, after all their requirements are met and their vet concurs, reimburse *up to but not exceeding $600.00 *of the total cost of having up to two Base Narrow teeth corrected (removed or shaved) by BUYER'S choice of veterinarian;

Section VI covers Hips/Elbows. That is, all that the owner must/must not do to produce proof that the condition is congenital and not from any other cause.
8.) Any history of any significant injury or veterinary treatment to PUPPY'S Back, legs, hips, spine, feet, chest, neck and or head, will VOID AND NULLIFY all Dysplasia Guarantees made here by BREEDER;

My comments
There is a lot to read in these. Do not skip any of the contract.

From their website
Full Registration AKC (this includes rights to breed a next generation and register all resulting purebred puppies with the AKC, no other restrictions on breeding)
My comments
I can find no differences in the health portion or transportation terms.
The price of full registration is double the limited reg and there are no restrictions on breeding that I saw.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'm so sorry for your loss, Sarah. I think lymphoma is actually pretty common in spoos--that's what the vet said when she tested Maizie for it a few years ago (turned out to be enlarged lymph nodes due to her autoimmune disease). And one of my best poodle friends lost her spoo to it fairly recently. 

I think the breeder looks good if you want a healthy pet. Sure, she doesn't know the colors of dogs she has, sure the dogs don't conform to the standard. But if they have good temperaments, are healthy and well raised, then that is the most important thing if you want a nice pet. 

I actually really like her vaccine requirements! I refuse to vaccinate my dogs for lepto or canine flu. I see it as pure $$$$ making for the vets and possibly harmful to my dogs. I only give the shots that this breeder recommends (and I titer for parvo/distemper, per Dr. Dodd's protocol).


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Oh, my DOG, what an annoying website...

Okay, this is a deal breaker for me. 

4.) All guarantees outlined in this contract will be null and void if BUYER (a.) fails to provide routine veterinary care, (b.) if PUPPY is spayed or neutered either before 18 months of age or after 25 months of age, (c.) if PUPPY is Bred (intentionally or not), (d.) if PUPPY is injured by accident or neglect or (e.) If PUPPY IS VACCINATED with more than Distemper, Parvo, Bordetella and or Rabies vaccinations, and / or (f.) if any of the terms of this agreement are not followed by BUYER;

Nerp.... (d.) Accidents happen. I've got a lame puppy right now that we have no clue what he did to himself, and (e.) both lepto and canine flu are common in my area, and while they will only get a flu vaccine if they are boarded, my dogs will get vaccinated for lepto on the advise of my vet. If we are going someplace that Lyme Disease is common, they'll be getting that one, too. 

It looks like I had the same opinion the first time round on this thread. (comment #15)


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> From their website
> ...as a preemptive surgical precaution to the often very quick and painful death that can happen out of the blue with "BLOAT", our contract now MANDATES that you will have your puppy's stomach stapled or sewn down at the time of spay or neuter.
> 
> My comments
> ...


This is a misunderstanding of the difference between bloat and volvulus. Preventative gastropexy helps to ensure that bloat, when the stomach fills with gas causing a simple gastric dilatation, does not progress into GDV, which is a progression of bloat into a volvulus where the stomach twists upon itself and is life threatening because it cuts off blood supply. Bloat itself is not life threatening, although it should be taken seriously and a dog should go to the vet ASAP if it's suspected. So of course a gastropexy does not prevent bloat, but it prevents the stomach from twisting and cutting off blood supply. Just wanted to make sure misinformation is not shared on here because many owners have lost their beloved pets to GDV and it can be avoided by a preventative gastropexy at the time of spaying and neutering. 

Also I did not get a pup from this breeder. So sorry for your loss. Good luck with whoever you choose for your next pup!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ihavestandards said:


> This is a misunderstanding of the difference between bloat and volvulus.


Absolutely it is, as worded in their contract. Your explanation is much clearer than theirs.

"ADDITIONALLY. as a preemptive surgical precaution to the often very quick and painful death that can happen out of the blue with "BLOAT", our contract now MANDATES that you will have your puppy's stomach stapled or sewn down at the time of spay or neuter.

We do not know of ANY dogs in our line who have gotten or died from bloat,

but,

s the stapling or sewing down the stomach is a quick and inexpensive "add on" to the spay or neuter and as having this procedure performed will guarantee that your dog will not die a horrible painful death from bloat, we now mandate this procedure be completed at the time of spay or neuter - in our contract."



The pexy is intended to prevent torsion, not bloat. Torsion is often fatal, bloat can be survived but either warrants medical care asap.

Recommending the surgery, which isn't necessarily "inexpensive", is a responsible thing, as I also noted. Mandating it is quite another.
Describing the pexy as a "guarantee that your dog will not die a horrible painful death from bloat..." is furthering a misunderstanding for their new puppy owners.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Recommending the surgery, which isn't necessarily "inexpensive", is a responsible thing, as I also noted. Mandating it is quite another.
> Describing the pexy as a "guarantee that your dog will not die a horrible painful death from bloat..." is furthering a misunderstanding for their new puppy owners.


It's definitely not inexpensive! And I would be nervous to make any guarantee claims about a gastropexy. But, I have no problem with a breeder creating their own mandates. If I were a breeder, maybe I would make this same one! People can choose what they are comfortable with. If you don't like the mandate, go with another breeder. 

I wonder if any dog has died after getting a prophylactic pexy and suffered from GDV. Rose, you are the PF research person--please let me know if you find it!


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I wonder if any dog has died after getting a prophylactic pexy and suffered from GDV. Rose, you are the PF research person--please let me know if you find it!


I know of a Doberman that bloated three times, twice after being pexied. The pexi was done during during surgery to fix the first bloat. Thanks to the pexi, he didn't torsion, but it was still serious.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

TeamHellhound said:


> I know of a Doberman that bloated three times, twice after being pexied. The pexi was done during during surgery to fix the first bloat. Thanks to the pexi, he didn't torsion, but it was still serious.



Three times, dang. But, he didn't die. So, I was just thinking I've never heard one case of a dog who died after having a pexy and then suffering from GDV. 

This also makes me think about the ethics of breeding dogs for a certain shape that makes them susceptible to bloat.


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## Sarahjt (12 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome to PF!
> 
> I'm very sorry to hear of your loss. It's devastating anytime but to be so young...we feel your loss by remembering our own.
> 
> ...


Hi Rose n Poos,

Thank-you for your welcome and the detailed discussion. We also purchased a pup years ago from one of the most recognized AKC breeders of Giant Schnauzers who tested everything - she developed one after another major genetic issue by two - it was devastating. On the other hand our 14 yo parti girl who probably did not come from a breeder with the highest standards out there is as tough as nails and has survived several health challenges - she'll potentially outlive us all. In sum I'm not sure there are any real health guarantees IMO and even if the breeder has one they rarely honor it - they claim the root cause is due to owner error food or care.

My parents bred and showed Samoyeds for years back in New Zealand and no matter how careful they were with the bitch and dog selection it could not prevent the occasional pup with a hole in its heart or some other random defect. It just seems to be the harsh natural order of reproductive activity that I'm not convinced can be extinguished by any test. I would question how much environment and food affect a lymphoma outcome - but who knows. If doctors knew I assume there would be a cure for human lymphoma too. All I know is it's heartbreaking since Nando was a true angel poodle sent to us even if our time was cut short it was worth every wonderful minute we had.

We are in Central California and willing to travel to find our next poodle love, We live on 10 dog-proof fully perimeter fenced acres and both of us work from home so we can offer an environment as close to poodle heaven as it gets so if anyone knows of a puppyto 12 or so month old dark brown poodle someone is trying to place please message me. We are actively looking.

Best
Sarah

[Mod note: Fixed quote formatting]


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I took a look at the web site for Rocky Mountain Luxe Puff Poodles. My first observation is that many of them have light eyes and poor pigment (nose, lips, eye rims are not dark). Their heads appear to all be very wide toward the back, not the lean, elegant look required by the standard. I was not happy to see that they are looking to sell "retired breeding dogs". This makes me think they are primarily a puppy mill.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I just browsed their website and had the same thought I did when I first saw it: Where’s the hip testing? If you’re breeding intentionally oversized poodles, I’d think this would be your top priority.

If anyone has purchased from this breeder, I’d be interested in hearing whether or not this was addressed in your communications.


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## ihavestandards (Jul 27, 2020)

Johanna said:


> I was not happy to see that they are looking to sell "retired breeding dogs". This makes me think they are primarily a puppy mill.


I'm curious to know more about this. Do all reputable breeders keep all of their breeding dogs for life then? What is the most ethical practice?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

ihavestandards said:


> I'm curious to know more about this. Do all reputable breeders keep all of their breeding dogs for life then? What is the most ethical practice?


Both of my dogs' breeders are small breeders and they keep the dogs their whole lives, I'm pretty sure (I know Maizie's breeder does). I prefer a small enough breeder that they are able to keep all of their dogs forever, but I'm also part of the Maltese community, and many reputable breeders place retirees when they're finished showing and then breeding and that is considered perfectly acceptable. So, it depends on how you feel about it, I think.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

ihavestandards said:


> I'm curious to know more about this. Do all reputable breeders keep all of their breeding dogs for life then? What is the most ethical practice?


Most breeders will keep their retired breeding dogs. However, there are always exceptions. Sometimes a dog just doesn't get along with other dogs in the household, and might be offered for rehoming. Sometimes they get offered as a rehome to do other sports beyond conformation, or whatever the breeder's main sport is. A lot of times though, it's done through word of mouth, i.e. someone knows someone who has a retired breeder that they would like to rehome, rather than offering them for sale on their website.


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> Most breeders will keep their retired breeding dogs. However, there are always exceptions. Sometimes a dog just doesn't get along with other dogs in the household, and might be offered for rehoming. Sometimes they get offered as a rehome to do other sports beyond conformation, or whatever the breeder's main sport is. A lot of times though, it's done through word of mouth, i.e. someone knows someone who has a retired breeder that they would like to rehome, rather than offering them for sale on their website.


And those placings are extremely picky - the breeders know and love those dogs and know where they want them to go. 

I'm "just" a pet owner and totally respect a breeder who places her puppies and adults when the breeding program supports it. It's got to be hard, but also necessary. 

Thank you, breeders, for doing something I wouldn't be able to do.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I wouldn't rule out a breeder selling retired breeding dogs, but I would definitely ask questions. Galen's breeder would be considered high volume by the standards of this board. I think I've only seen one dog get retired and not placed with a friend or relative. A lot of their breeding dogs live with guardian families and retire with the family where they were living.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I must be missing something. I don’t see any retired breeding dogs for sale on their website, just a number of “Young Adults” who can be purchased with breeding rights.

If I were to speak with this breeder, I would ask them about those adolescents, even if I didn’t intend to purchase one. Why haven’t they already found homes? Why are they discounted so steeply? (Well-socialized adult poodles are in high demand!) If they were holding them back as candidates for their own breeding program—and they didn’t make the cut—why are they letting them go to breeding homes?


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> It's definitely not inexpensive! And I would be nervous to make any guarantee claims about a gastropexy. But, I have no problem with a breeder creating their own mandates. If I were a breeder, maybe I would make this same one! People can choose what they are comfortable with. If you don't like the mandate, go with another breeder.
> 
> I wonder if any dog has died after getting a prophylactic pexy and suffered from GDV. Rose, you are the PF research person--please let me know if you find it!


My coworker had a Spoo who had GDV, was surgically treated and pexied.
Dog bloated again several months later and the pexy site got pulled which ended up causing (iirc) an air pocket in the tissues. 
The dog passed away due to complications a few weeks later.
I can't remember for sure but I think it was with a third round of GDV/bloat.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I think conscientious breeders would make sure that their retired dogs, from show or breeding, would remain in or go directly to a home where they'd be a cherished member of that family. If it wasn't pre-arranged, they'd go thru the same process as if that dog was going to a new family as a puppy. 

What I'd never expect, unless something has gone horribly wrong somewhere, is to have those dogs "released" to open rescue as if they hadn't held an important place in each other's lives.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Starvt said:


> My coworker had a Spoo who had GDV, was surgically treated and pexied.
> Dog bloated again several months later and the pexy site got pulled which ended up causing (iirc) an air pocket in the tissues.
> The dog passed away due to complications a few weeks later.
> I can't remember for sure but I think it was with a third round of GDV/bloat.


Thank you for sharing this story. So sad 😭


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> I think conscientious breeders would make sure that their retired dogs, from show or breeding, would remain in or go directly to a home where they'd be a cherished member of that family. If it wasn't pre-arranged, they'd go thru the same process as if that dog was going to a new family as a puppy.
> 
> What I'd never expect, unless something has gone horribly wrong somewhere, is to have those dogs "released" to open rescue as if they hadn't held an important place in each other's lives.


Were you able to find the retired dogs on their website? I’m still somehow missing them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I wonder if any dog has died after getting a prophylactic pexy and suffered from GDV. Rose, you are the PF research person--please let me know if you find it!


I've been on and off this thru the day.

Pexy can reduce incidence of future bloat and torsion. Bloat can still happen, can become dangerous, and torsion could happen if the stomach detaches. 
Numbers and percentages vary with study, depending on the nature, focus, and sampling of the study. 

RECURRENCE
Without gastropexy, the rate of recurrence of GDV is 55% to 75%, and median survival times are significantly shorter than for patients treated surgically.10,21,25 Therefore, surgery should always be recommended. In two studies,26,27 the rate of recurrence of GDV after gastropexy was 0%, but recurrence has been documented rarely.10,28 Occurrence of gastric dilatation after gastropexy is reported as 5% to 11%.21,25–27
Gastric Dilatation and Volvulus: Stabilization and Surgery - Today's Veterinary Practice (todaysveterinarypractice.com)

The outlook for bloat is brightening, with increasing interest in surgery to prevent GDV. Prophylactic gastropexy surgically attaches the stomach to the abdominal wall to prevent twisting. “While some dogs with gastropexy will still bloat, (gastric dilatation), the gastropexy should prevent their stomach from twisting (volvulus) and the need for emergency surgery,” says Dr. Rawlings. “It’s rare, if ever, for gastropexied dogs to have a life-threatening bloat.”
AKC Canine Health Foundation | Preventing Torsion When Bloating with Prophylactic Gastropexy (akcchf.org) 

There doesn't seem to be any official record of a dog dying of a new torsion after a pexy from a reliable site, but no medical site will say it _cannot_ happen. 
As Starvt noted, the pexy can come undone/detached. 
There's a number of methods mentioned in this link. I don't know which is most prevalent currently for prophylactic surgery. 
Occurrence and recurrence of gastric dilatation with or without volvulus after incisional gastropexy (nih.gov)


Military Working Dogs US 
(e) Final Acceptance. Dogs meeting medical and training criteria are officially accepted, given a permanent tattoo number and assigned an ideal weight range. Intact females and cryptorchid males are neutered at this time, any necessary dental care is performed, and all dogs receive a prophylactic gastropexy. Dogs enter training following recovery...

b. GDV was a major cause of death in MWDs for decades; however, GDV is a rare occurrence in DOD MWDs now, since performance of a prophylactic gastropexy was instituted in 2009 for all new DOD MWDs. In this procedure, a permanent surgical adhesion between the stomach and inner peritoneal wall is created during an elective procedure that prevents volvulus and has dramatically reduced the incidence of GDV and gastric dilatation in the MWD population. However, veterinary personnel may still encounter emergently ill working dogs with GDV, because most Special Operations Forces, contractor and allied working dogs have not been prophylactically gastropexied. Although rare, failure of the surgical adhesion site after a gastropexy has been reported.

ARN17825_TBMED298_FINAL.pdf (army.mil)


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Were you able to find the retired dogs on their website? I’m still somehow missing them.


In addition to the "young adults" section, if you go to "breeding adults" and scroll past the 9 or 10? there (I didn't actually count) you'll find another 9-10 more "retired" dogs. 
What isn't there is any prices for them, but what else will they do with that many "retired" breeders,
and the young adults, and the puppies?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Thank you so much for your time in researching this, Rose! Really glad my dogs are pexied to increase their odds of survival.


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