# prong collar advice please?



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I do use pinch collars. It is not enough to just know how to put it on, but also how to introduce it so you will be able to fade it away when you are ready. I will describe here the method I use and have instructed students and clients to use. Put the pinch collar on the dog and give lots of treats for him accepting it with no fuss and without putting it live with your leash until you have done that every day for two weeks. Sisko will then think it does nothing. While you have been doing that you will also have a cheap nylon flat buckle collar soaking in mink oil or fish oil to stink it up. On the 15th day bring out both collars and hook them both to the leash. This will be the first time the pinch collar is "live." The dog will think the stinky collar is giving the corrections. Make very sure that you never do any leash popping. The idea is for the dog to decide what level of correction is meaningful. The stinky collar will seem like it is the corrective collar. Once your dog figures out that pulling on leash isn't fun you will be able to reduce the use of the pinch collar (which should be your goal). This method was described to me by Ian Dunbar in person.

And here are a couple odf other important points. Never use a pinch collar by itself. Always use a backup collar (I use a slip chain since it doesn't interfere with the pinch). Sometimes pinch collars come off if you haven't put it on correctly. Also be prepared to add or remove links to size it correctly so it loosens properly whne the dog is being polite on the leash. Make sure you order a correct size. I often see people with dogs on pinch collars that are entirely wrong and extremely unfair for their dogs (usually way heavier and longer links than needed). If the links are too big the correction is slow and not meaningful. For my standard poodles I specifically use this one. Get the small 2.25 link size and an extra pack of links.

Please don't use this tool though if you are not going to follow the methods above and most of all, never yank on the leash when your dog is wearing a pinch collar live!!!!!!!!!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

How old is Sisko? What methods are you currently using to redirect his attention?

At 7 months, Peggy is never walked without training treats. We use them less than we used to, but they're still the most effective way to regain her focus and keep a loose leash. If she's really having trouble focusing, we just try to end on a good note and take her home for a nap (which is often what she needs). Or we change to a route with fewer exciting distractions, to keep her under threshold.

Practising in the backyard without a leash is an excellent way for us to practice OUR loose leash technique. With a leash, it's easy to apply tension without even realizing, which inadvertently encourages pulling. Practising without that aid helps us break our own bad habits and learn the muscle memory needed to keep her at our side with positive reinforcement.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> I do use pinch collars. It is not enough to just know how to put it on, but also how to introduce it so you will be able to fade it away when you are ready. I will describe here the method I use and have instructed students and clients to use. Put the pinch collar on the dog and give lots of treats for him accepting it with no fuss and without putting it live with your leash until you have done that every day for two weeks. Sisko will then think it does nothing. While you have been doing that you will also have a cheap nylon flat buckle collar soaking in mink oil or fish oil to stink it up. On the 15th day bring out both collars and hook them both to the leash. This will be the first time the pinch collar is "live." The dog will think the stinky collar is giving the corrections. Make very sure that you never do any leash popping. The idea is for the dog to decide what level of correction is meaningful. The stinky collar will seem like it is the corrective collar. Once your dog figures out that pulling on leash isn't fun you will be able to reduce the use of the pinch collar (which should be your goal). This method was described to me by Ian Dunbar in person.
> 
> And here are a couple odf other important points. Never use a pinch collar by itself. Always use a backup collar (I use a slip chain since it doesn't interfere with the pinch). Sometimes pinch collars come off if you haven't put it on correctly. Also be prepared to add or remove links to size it correctly so it loosens properly whne the dog is being polite on the leash. Make sure you order a correct size. I often see people with dogs on pinch collars that are entirely wrong and extremely unfair for their dogs (usually way heavier and longer links than needed). If the links are too big the correction is slow and not meaningful. For my standard poodles I specifically use this one. Get the small 2.25 link size and an extra pack of links.
> 
> Please don't use this tool though if you are not going to follow the methods above and most of all, never yank on the leash when your dog is wearing a pinch collar live!!!!!!!!!


Thank you, very much, Lily. Is there a specific brand of pinch collar I should use? I definitely plan on following the methods you mentioned above. I've seen people yank on the leash with prong collars and it angered me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sorry I forgot the link to the one I use. This one in the small size with 2.25 size links. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00074VZ9O/ref=twister_B07RGXGBS3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> How old is Sisko? What methods are you currently using to redirect his attention?
> 
> At 7 months, Peggy is never walked without training treats. We use them less than we used to, but they're still the most effective way to regain her focus and keep a loose leash. If she's really having trouble focusing, we just try to end on a good note and take her home for a nap (which is often what she needs). Or we change to a route with fewer exciting distractions, to keep her under threshold.
> 
> Practising in the backyard without a leash is an excellent way for us to practice OUR loose leash technique. With a leash, it's easy to apply tension without even realizing, which inadvertently encourages pulling. Practising without that aid helps us break our own bad habits and learn the muscle memory needed to keep her at our side with positive reinforcement.


Peggy looks really big for 7 months! Sisko is almost 2. I try calling him and making kissy noises while holding a treat, and if I'm able to get his attention, I give him the treat and ask for a sit.

I don't have a a backyard to practice in, but I can practice inside and add distractions later. Thank you!


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Sorry I forgot the link to the one I use. This one in the small size with 2.25 size links. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00074VZ9O/ref=twister_B07RGXGBS3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


Thank you!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Peggy looks really big for 7 months! Sisko is almost 2. I try calling him and making kissy noises while holding a treat, and if I'm able to get his attention, I give him the treat and ask for a sit.
> 
> I don't have a a backyard to practice in, but I can practice inside and add distractions later. Thank you!


Definitely! You can practice anywhere, any time! Sometimes I'll do it inside, just walking around the dining room table, down the hall to the bedroom, into the kitchen, in circles.... Peggy thinks it's all great fun, which (in my opinion, at least) is the best kind of training.

And always alwayssss I have little bits of treats on me. Sometimes we scatter them to keep her moving forward; sometimes we just deposit a piece or two into her mouth when she heels nicely; sometimes we wiggle one in front of her face to recapture her attention. (This wiggling movement has become key, as the world gets more and more interesting to her every day.)

I didn't use treats to train my last dog, so this has been a learning experience for me. Getting the timing right can be tricky, especially when holding a leash in the other hand. Our trainer makes it look so effortless! But she's so patient with us. She's been a big help.

As for Peggy's size, she just weighed in at 42 lbs today. Is that big for a spoo? I've not measured her height in a while, but she seems so much smaller to me since we cut off her puppy fluff last weekend.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Okay!? I've started to keep treats on me at all times. I'll try the wiggling movement. I didn't use treats that much for our Aussie, we trained our Aussie differently than Sisko, so this is a learning experience for us too. 


That's awesome! May I ask what trainer you have for Peggy? I've been to Jeanne Hampl,s. 

It might be. Last time I check Sisko was 55lbs and 27 inches. I saw that y'all cut her puppy fluff, she looks awesome!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Okay!? I've started to keep treats on me at all times. I'll try the wiggling movement. I didn't use treats that much for our Aussie, we trained our Aussie differently than Sisko, so this is a learning experience for us too.
> 
> 
> That's awesome! May I ask what trainer you have for Peggy? I've been to Jeanne Hampl,s.
> ...


We have a local trainer here on the Olympic Peninsula, in Washington State. We had just one private consult with her before joining her group puppy classes, and I've noticed the working breeds can hardly tear their eyes off their handlers, even at a young age. Don't expect that from your poodle! 

Peggy keeps her eye on us, but ALSO keeps her eye on everyone else in the class, canine and human. She has a much shorter attention span than the Aussies, heelers, labs, and GSDs, and responds almost instantly to energy changes in the room while they remain resolutely focused on their owners' faces. But Peggy is also less prone to obsessive behaviour, and she has a nice off switch. Each breed has their pros and cons!

Another big difference I've noticed is her thought process. It's visible. She works through commands just like she works through problems, and she has a keen sense of fairness. An excessively firm "No" sends her straight up in the air, and a correction delivered without ample opportunity to comply with a _clearly communicated_ request is asking for a full-blown temper tantrum.

I try to avoid anthropomorphizing dogs, but spoos are wired differently than other breeds I've gotten to know. Peggy's so eerily smart. She's constantly being "trained" whether I intend for her to learn something or not. So if she's consistently doing something undesirable, I find it helpful to analyze my OWN behaviours first. Have I unintentionally taught her this? How? And how can I fix it?

Key words: Fix it.

Not her.

And when she gets bored or restless and starts making up games to entertain herself or blow off steam? Time to up MY game. Zak George's Instagram account and YouTube channel have been great for this. He's such a charismatic handler. I've studied the way he engages his puppy's attention and (once I got over feeling a bit silly) saw immediate results. That's where I learned the treat wiggle


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## Latte12 (Jan 3, 2016)

I'm not a trainer and I have an exceptional SPOO, of course all of us do. When Latte was 1+ we moved from a 1 acre country house to downtown Seoul, South Korea. He had never been on a leash except to to the vet. He started pulling on the leash and lunging at everyone and every dog. It was very embarrassing and I was being scolded by passersby. I knew he was frightened and taking in too much environmental stimulation. One day I refused to walk when he pulled. Take 2 steps, he pulls, I stop. Take more steps etc, etc. After 3x he got it. Now, a squirrel or rabbit can cut in front, he will bark and whine, but the leash never gets taunt. I could never condone using a pinch collar or choke collar on any POODLE.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Okay, thank you! That's good. You're right, every breed does have their pros and cons. I would say 30% of the time no doesn't even faze Sisko. He doesn't have obsessive behaviors, but I just figured out he will do displacement behaviors more than once a day, and it's worrying me.

I've been starting to analyze my own behavior as well. I used to watch Zak George's videos on YouTube, he is charismatic! I'll start watching them again, I'd like to learn the treat wiggle too. Sisko can get restless and bored very easily, but he won't make up games or play with his toys by himself, he'll just start sniffing and roaming like everything is new. I've started to up my game as well.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Latte12 said:


> I'm not a trainer and I have an exceptional SPOO, of course all of us do. When Latte was 1+ we moved from a 1 acre country house to downtown Seoul, South Korea. He had never been on a leash except to to the vet. He started pulling on the leash and lunging at everyone and every dog. It was very embarrassing and I was being scolded by passersby. I knew he was frightened and taking in too much environmental stimulation. One day I refused to walk when he pulled. Take 2 steps, he pulls, I stop. Take more steps etc, etc. After 3x he got it. Now, a squirrel or rabbit can cut in front, he will bark and whine, but the leash never gets taunt. I could never condone using a pinch collar or choke collar on any POODLE.


Yeah??. Latte's mind was blown?That's awesome he's gotten better. I used to be very much against both chain and prong collars, but we used a chain collar on our Aussie and she learned not to pull, so we didn't have to use it anymore. The chain collar is dangerous for Sisko because he still pulled while it was on him.

As long as someone is using a prong or chain collar correctly, just for training, and as long as the dog doesn't pull and if the owner doesn't yank the leash, they're safe, but I can understand why people are still very much against them and can't condone them.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I actually don't allow novice students to use unlimited slip chains, only people who are very experienced can use them in my classes. I also do not allow people to use electronic collars in classes unless I know they know how to use them. These two tools are very dangerous when used by people who don't understand them (as are pinch collars) but as described above I think pinch collars are very useful.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Latte12 said:


> I could never condone using a pinch collar or choke collar on any POODLE.


Me neither! I just use harnesses on mine if they are too strong. But Latte, your training method is even better.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I do understand that certain tools are not used by various folks for various reasons and I respect those choices just so long as other people don't condemn mine without understanding that I am well educated and careful to follow fair and reasonable methods for using those tools. The main reason I don't use harnesses for walking is that Lily and Javelin have both been trained in foundations of tracking and their behavior when leashes are clipped onto harnesses is to pull like freight trains! They have separate harnesses for the car, but only for riding in the car.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I respect you as a trainer, Catherine, but I don't like prong collars on poodles, perhaps because both of mine are so sensitive. I use front-clip harnesses, and I can tell you a poodle cannot pull you like a freight train in them the way they can in a tracking harness.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

You can also try a Gentle Leader or similar nose leash. I’ve seen people use them successfully on large dogs. There was someone in the park where we walk often who I yelled at because he was yanking/popping on his dogs pinch collar inappropriately. I told him to get a nose leader for his labradoodle and the next week he was walking his dog and the dog was calmly walking beautifully. I bet the dog was happier too. The owner thanked me profusely, he had no idea he should not be pulling and popping that pinch collar.

My own dog hated her Nose leader. I held my arm in an awkward position to hold my dog in position to walk which caused my arm and shoulder to swell. It was so painful I couldn’t dress or drive or use my arm for a week. I had to get and use the nose leader immediately instead of taking time to train my dog to accept it. She hated it but it worked while my arm healed. Once my arm was okay I went to the stand like a tree method when she pulled. Unlike Latte, my dog didn’t learn in three tries, it took a lot longer And she still, when excited will pull. I have her trained now that she has to turn and come back into heel position before I will walk forward.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I tried the Gentle Leader 2 times, but Sisko really hated it and would destroy it if he found it on the table and the second one he destroyed while out walking? he hated it because he knew he couldn't pull. He destroyed his harness too, I'm not sure how he found it though.

I'm sorry you hurt your arm, but I'm glad it got better and healed?. I hurt my ankle walking Sisko months ago and it still hasn't healed. That's awesome that you got her trained like that. Sometimes if I try standing like a tree, Sisko will pull harder so that he pulls me with him.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Fenris-wolf said:


> I tried the Gentle Leader 2 times, but Sisko really hated it and would destroy it if he found it on the table and the second one he destroyed while out walking? he hated it because he knew he couldn't pull. He destroyed his harness too, I'm not sure how he found it though.
> 
> I'm sorry you hurt your arm, but I'm glad it got better and healed?. I hurt my ankle walking Sisko months ago and it still hasn't healed. That's awesome that you got her trained like that. Sometimes if I try standing like a tree, Sisko will pull harder so that he pulls me with him.


I'm worried about you walking him alone, since you don't sound like you have the strength to keep him from the street completely, and now with this new information about your ankle. I had a longstanding ankle problem years back and understand. Have you been able to see a doctor?

Is there anywhere safe and fully fenced where you can take this young dog? That seems like a destination to find - someplace that protects you both.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Streetcar said:


> I'm worried about you walking him alone, since you don't sound like you have the strength to keep him from the street completely, and now with this new information about your ankle. I had a longstanding ankle problem years back and understand. Have you been able to see a doctor?
> 
> Is there anywhere safe and fully fenced where you can take this young dog? That seems like a destination to find - someplace that protects you both.


I say my doctor twice and she had me get an X-ray, it's not broken, so she said to keep it a brace on it, so I did but then the best one I had stopped working and the other one is too big to put on under my shoe, so now I need to find another one now. 

Not that I can think of, but there has to be someplace we can go to. I'll try looking. Thank you!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I subscribe to the training philosophy of _do this and this wonderful thing will happen_...instead of, _do this or else you're going to get it and it ain't gonna be pretty. _The list of what to do is shorter than the list of what not to do...much simpler to show the dog what _to do_. And there's less chance of undesirable side effects. I've trained many dogs and have never had to use any painful or uncomfortable implement. And if anyone tells you those collars don't hurt, that's not true. If it were true, they would not work. 

The mistake most people make is they train their dogs to pull on the leash. Inadvertently, yes. But nevertheless....let that dog take one step where the leash is tight and he just learned that when the leash is tight...that's when he gets to walk forward. That tight leash morphs into the cue to walk forward. He must learn that walking doesn't work if the leash is taut. Not even one step. Not ever. Not under any circumstance. 

Training has to happen first. And it must start out with no distractions so the dog can learn what to do. In the meantime, if you must take your dog for a walk in the midst of distractions, you can use a no pull harness. (I wouldn't recommend using those forever, as they are thought to cause some skeletal problems since they put pressure in the wrong place or something... But just while you train the dog not to pull like a sled dog)





__





how to teach a dog not to pull on the leash kiko pup - Google Search






www.google.com


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, sorry. I wrote that last post and now I see there were some others I missed before it. That's not good if your poor ankle is hurting. Gee. I would just walk him in really low distraction areas...close to home, practicing walking nicely on a loose leash where he's less apt to pull...maybe even in your back yard. Prevention (of practicing unwanted behaviors) is the best medicine. I hope your ankle will heal up well soon.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh, sorry. I wrote that last post and now I see there were some others I missed before it. That's not good if your poor ankle is hurting. Gee. I would just walk him in really low distraction areas...close to home, practicing walking nicely on a loose leash where he's less apt to pull...maybe even in your back yard. Prevention (of practicing unwanted behaviors) is the best medicine. I hope your ankle will heal up well soon.


It's okay.? Okay, thank you! He'll get distracted even by cars, I don't have a backyard unfortunately, so I'll practice inside and then add distractions. Thank you, and thank you for the training video too? there's a dog park I can take home to that's not far, and I just found a indoor one that's 15$ to get in.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MF I respect your choices about tools too and accept that this will be a point of disagreement between myself and many people. I think we are both smart enough to know there are many routes to the same destination!

Now as to gentle leaders and other head harnesses I don't have much love for them either. i've seen many dogs really go nuts out of resentment to having something that stays on their head. I know Lily would melt if I tried to use one and I'm pretty sure Javelin would to even though I've trained both of them to accept being muzzled (for use in event of injuries). I was at a seminar where a bunch of us had to cool our jets for about 20 minutes while we waited for a big schnoodle to stop writhing on the floor trying to get a head halti off because he had been jerking his handler around so badly they tried him with it to try to see if it would get him under control.

Fenris-wolf search around in the forum for a thred on attention and focus. You may find that developing a better connection so that you make yourself more important than squirrels, etc would help you. If Javelin and I weren't going out really early for some training time in Jew Jersey I would try to find it myself right now, but I must go to bed soon. LMK if you don't find it and I will search for it when I get back tomorrow afternoon.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Oh, no!? Okay, thank you! Have fun?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I was at a seminar where a bunch of us had to cool our jets for about 20 minutes while we waited for *a big schnoodle* to stop writhing on the floor trying to get a head halti off because he had been jerking his handler around so badly they tried him with it to try to see if it would get him under control.


Well what do you expect from a doodle?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Fenris-wolf said:


> I tried the Gentle Leader 2 times, but Sisko really hated it and would destroy it if he found it on the table and the second one he destroyed while out walking? he hated it because he knew he couldn't pull. He destroyed his harness too, I'm not sure how he found it though.
> 
> I'm sorry you hurt your arm, but I'm glad it got better and healed?. I hurt my ankle walking Sisko months ago and it still hasn't healed. That's awesome that you got her trained like that. Sometimes if I try standing like a tree, Sisko will pull harder so that he pulls me with him.


Sisko is quite the character. He’s clearly not loving the halter or Gentle Leader.

I’m sorry you hurt your ankle. At least with my shoulder/arm injury I could walk. Have you seen a good physical therapist? I find they can work miracles on strengthening the muscles around an injury so it relieves the stress and pain. Maybe you might find some help with treatment?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Sisko is quite the character. He’s clearly not loving the halter or Gentle Leader.
> 
> I’m sorry you hurt your ankle. At least with my shoulder/arm injury I could walk. Have you seen a good physical therapist? I find they can work miracles on strengthening the muscles around an injury so it relieves the stress and pain. Maybe you might find some help with treatment?


Lol. He is! I haven't seen a physical therapist. I can walk for the most part, but it just feels weird sometimes, but some days it can be difficult. I'll look though. Thank you?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

These collars are designed to 'pinch' the loose skin around the neck, not to 'prong' anything. Hence their proper name, Pinch Collar.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Well what do you expect from a doodle?


MF, not much of course, but in this case the handler is pretty clueless too!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Countryboy said:


> These collars are designed to 'pinch' the loose skin around the neck, not to 'prong' anything. Hence their proper name, Pinch Collar.


Semantics  But yes, the prongs pinch, and these words are both used on the Sprenger website.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

*Ouch!* I prefer my dog to not associate training with pain from pinching, poking, shocking...pain. Discomfort, fear. And they do poke....right into the skin. Pinch, poke. Whatever....it's discomfort or pain. Usually the dog doesn't have a clue what we want, what he's suppose to be doing. And the punishment makes no connection with the thing he's doing. A no-pull harness can work until the dog is trained. You still need to teach him that it pays off to walk along side you without pulling. Making these associations takes time and training.

I don't like head halters either. The muzzle is a very vulnerable place and it seems very intimidating to control a dog from that point. Plus, I know of lots of dogs that have had neck and spinal cord injuries when they lunge on one of those things. You can put on another leash attached to a collar or harness to use at times where the dog may be reactive but it's a feat of quick reflexes and good coordination. I wouldn't try it.

There can be fall-out from using positive punishment on a dog that may be fearful, a little shy or sensitive especially. When they get pinched in the presence of something in their environment, they may associate pain with _that_ thing, be it something stationary or say, a kid on a bike. The dog sees a kid just when he gets pinched. _Ouch! kids make me get pinched_. Since dogs learn very strongly by pairing one thing with another, this is something that often happens.

Now I know some people use them without winding up with problems and I'm sure there are trainers who know how to use them to the best way possible. And I do think Catherine is one of those people. But I never recommend them for _most_ people or _most_ dogs. There are other ways to control a dog.

Check this out.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I have mixed opinions about pinch collars. I have used one, for our old 185 lb St. Bernard. She was excited and came running when i picked it up, as it meant she was going somewhere, and she seemed to shrug off corrections. It was the only way we could keep her 185lb self from pulling full steam towards children, or tobogganing my mother on ice. Even if most walks she never pulled/corrected herself once, it was worth it for the security it provided... I have suggested people use them, but they are usually older/frail people, walking dogs weighing more than them. It's not an ideal solution, but better than someone breaking a hip.

The problem with prong collars as a training tool is that it's WAY too easy to use - and abuse. As a human, I am not rational. It's way too easy with a pinch collar, especially if you are already frustrated with a behaviour (say, repeated pulling) to start going "pop, pop, pop, pop" all the way down the street, (pop! you looked away from me. pop! you pulled ahead of me! pop! we are at a corner, sit! pop!) which is a definite recipe for a confused and scared dog. I've seen it happen, and I've also had to stop myself when I've realized _I'm_ behaving poorly. If I'm in a bad mood and clicker training - the worst I can do is tug on a leash attached to a flat collar, or fail to reward a behaviour I'm trying to mark.

If you do get a pinch collar, please consider your mood before you go for a walk - if you're mad already, put the pinch collar down. If you get frustrated on the walk, clip your leash to both rings to "deaden" the collar, and head home.

What helped with Annie's pulling was me bringing a clicker on a cord around my wrist and clicking and marking good behaviour, and also stopping and waiting for her to walk back to me without prompting when she pulls. For Sisko - have you tried using a longer, say 10' line? I find with Annie, when she's on a longer leash, she pulls less because she has a bigger area she can reach/sniff without me.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Countryboy said:


> These collars are designed to 'pinch' the loose skin around the neck, not to 'prong' anything. Hence their proper name, Pinch Collar.


Okay? thank you. I've only ever known them as Prong Collars. It wasn't until I came on PF that I learned they are called Pinch Collars, but I didn't know the proper name is Pinch Collars.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Semantics  But yes, the prongs pinch, and these words are both used on the Sprenger website.
> 
> View attachment 463399


Ohhhhhh?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *Ouch!* I prefer my dog to not associate training with pain from pinching, poking, shocking...pain. Discomfort, fear. And they do poke....right into the skin. Pinch, poke. Whatever....it's discomfort or pain. Usually the dog doesn't have a clue what we want, what he's suppose to be doing. And the punishment makes no connection with the thing he's doing. A no-pull harness can work until the dog is trained. You still need to teach him that it pays off to walk along side you without pulling. Making these associations takes time and training.
> 
> I don't like head halters either. The muzzle is a very vulnerable place and it seems very intimidating to control a dog from that point. Plus, I know of lots of dogs that have had neck and spinal cord injuries when they lunge on one of those things. You can put on another leash attached to a collar or harness to use at times where the dog may be reactive but it's a feat of quick reflexes and good coordination. I wouldn't try it.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't want that either. That's awful, those poor dogs!? I wondered about that. I wouldn't try it either.

I've heard of that happening and it makes a lot of sense. I think Sisko would be like that if he saw another dog and pulled. I don't want that to happen.

Yeah, I think if I was to use the Pinch Collar, I would like a trainer who knows what they are doing to be right there with us.

Thank you for the video! This reminds me of the Freedom Harness. The Freedom Harness didn't work?, but this one might work better.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I have mixed opinions about pinch collars. I have used one, for our old 185 lb St. Bernard. She was excited and came running when i picked it up, as it meant she was going somewhere, and she seemed to shrug off corrections. It was the only way we could keep her 185lb self from pulling full steam towards children, or tobogganing my mother on ice. Even if most walks she never pulled/corrected herself once, it was worth it for the security it provided... I have suggested people use them, but they are usually older/frail people, walking dogs weighing more than them. It's not an ideal solution, but better than someone breaking a hip.
> 
> The problem with prong collars as a training tool is that it's WAY too easy to use - and abuse. As a human, I am not rational. It's way too easy with a pinch collar, especially if you are already frustrated with a behaviour (say, repeated pulling) to start going "pop, pop, pop, pop" all the way down the street, (pop! you looked away from me. pop! you pulled ahead of me! pop! we are at a corner, sit! pop!) which is a definite recipe for a confused and scared dog. I've seen it happen, and I've also had to stop myself when I've realized _I'm_ behaving poorly. If I'm in a bad mood and clicker training - the worst I can do is tug on a leash attached to a flat collar, or fail to reward a behaviour I'm trying to mark.
> 
> ...


I've had to stop and realize when I'm behaving poorly too. I used to just try to take Sisko out to go potty and would dread and be mad when we went outside because of him pulling, being so distracted, and wanting to go off in 10 directions at one time, now I don't get mad at all anymore, it's so much better for the both of us.

Okay, that's good? I'm doing the same, and we've been practing inside as well, he's gotten a lot better. I have a 30' long line, but I tell him ''release'' to let him know he can wonder away and sniff around. Thank you!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

i have always used pinch/prong collars on my dogs. They are effective and the dog is quick to learn no pulling. At the same time I use a flat collar. 1 to ensure the pinch collar does not fall apart, which it shouldn't if properly fitted and two if I find circumstance where I want him to meet and greet people, then I switch to the flat once he is in a sit. They have always worked for me, none of my dogs ever even had a reddened neck as some people say. (I have had mostly big dogs GSD, rottweilers, and labs. Now the are times I put it on and mostly I no longer need it. I didn't go thru any protocol, I just use it. Sometimes its on others not. SO he never quite knew. Renn has walked on a nice loose leash since very young. While he is still excitable at times he now looks to me for direction. He was a bit slower for me to train than my past dogs in certain areas, like jumping up. At 2 he is now much more responsive to learning. I don't call myself a trainer though I've been to many dog training classes with some of my past dogs, they all taught pretty much the same way. The one thing I did do with Renn was also positive training indoors. I would lure him at my side with a treat and heel him around the house off leash. This didn't work outdoors at all, lol too many distractions and he was just too young but I think it did help him learn what heel means. He has an excellent heel and sit.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't commonly recommend pinch collars for pet folks and when I do I always give (and insist on following) the protocol I described above). I supervise carefully too for new users. I don't think I have ever had anyone fail to reach their goal using one, nor have I ever seen a dog been hurt by one. I have never seen a dog cry about feeling a correction either. That said most of the people I train with for performance sports do use pinch collars. Keeping in mind that the dog gives itself the correction the correction is then only as much as is needed for that particular dog. I tried for myself what the collar feels like when there is pressure on against the inner aspect of my forearm both gradually and abruptly applied. To me it is annoying more than anything and I have never had any marks on me from its pressure even though I take anticoagulants.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I used a pinch collar for my mastiff- after years of hating pinch collars- and I can honestly say that I only use one finger to put any pressure on the collar and had to use my whole hand only a few times (and yes I also tried it sharply on my soft forearm- it was really not that bad). It was far more humane (for her specifically) than her flat collar. A harness would have resulted in impromptu skijoring... I followed a training video from Leerburg (it was labeled as either introduction to prong collar, or pressure training). She jumps up in excitent the minute she hears the jangle of the collar.
I have used a Gentle Leader for some of my dogs- and it's a tool that requires some time to acclimatize the dog- but it's not appropriate for dog that fling themselves at the end of the leash, I have seen spine/ neck damage from improper use.
I don't think I will use either on my spoo though, he is not very reactive and has so far responded very well to simply no forward movement if he puts any pressure on the leash.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Working on focus with distractions should help too. I used the video from Puppy Culture 








ATTENTION IS THE MOTHER OF ALL BEHAVIORS - LIFETIME ACCESS (Video On Demand)


What if there were a way to actually have your puppy perform better in distracting situations? What if you could take all the distractions in the world and turn them into fuel for attention from your puppy? Well, this video will show you how to do it. In this two episode series, we show you how...




shoppuppyculture.com


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Starvt said:


> I used a pinch collar for my mastiff- after years of hating pinch collars- and I can honestly say that I only use one finger to put any pressure on the collar and had to use my whole hand only a few times (and yes I also tried it sharply on my soft forearm- it was really not that bad). It was far more humane (for her specifically) than her flat collar. A harness would have resulted in impromptu skijoring... I followed a training video from Leerburg (it was labeled as either introduction to prong collar, or pressure training). She jumps up in excitent the minute she hears the jangle of the collar.
> I have used a Gentle Leader for some of my dogs- and it's a tool that requires some time to acclimatize the dog- but it's not appropriate for dog that fling themselves at the end of the leash, I have seen spine/ neck damage from improper use.
> I don't think I will use either on my spoo though, he is not very reactive and has so far responded very well to simply no forward movement if he puts any pressure on the leash.


That's really awesome that you and Lily cd re tried the prong collars on yourselves?. May I ask what kind of mastiff you have please? That's so cute that she jumps up in excitement when she hears the collar. ?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Starvt said:


> Working on focus with distractions should help too. I used the video from Puppy Culture
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Fenris-wolf said:


> That's really awesome that you and Lily cd re tried the prong collars on yourselves?. May I ask what kind of mastiff you have please? That's so cute that she jumps up in excitement when she hears the collar. ?



I have a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff). She is amazing, but the total opposite of my poodle! Except they are both 'all or nothing" dogs- either lazing around the house or wrestling like hooligans lol.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Starvt said:


> I have a Cane Corso (Italian Mastiff). She is amazing, but the total opposite of my poodle! Except they are both 'all or nothing" dogs- either lazing around the house or wrestling like hooligans lol.
> View attachment 463437
> View attachment 463438


Oh my goodness!? She's so cute! I really like the mastiff breeds, but I still like almost all dog breeds. Lol that photo? hooligans??


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Thank you to everyone who chimed in on this.? I've decided to get the Pinch Collar and follow the methods discribed on the first page by Lily cd re. Sisko is learning heel now and is pretty good at it, and probably stays by my side 70% of the time while outside.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

That's a shame...

*"Announcing a new Joint Standards of Practice for professional animal behavior consultants and trainers*


> We are incredibly proud to announce the agreement of a Standards of Practice across IAABC, APDT, and CCPDT. Through our unified Code of Ethics and LIMA (Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive) guidelines, we promote, as a norm and a fundamental tenet, positive reinforcement training, and giving a voice to our learners as well as our clients. Through consensus and mutual respect between organizations, we help move our field into the 21st century and elevate our field to the level of professionalism it deserves.


The leadership of the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC), the Association of Professional Dog Trainers (APDT), the Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers (CCPDT) are pleased to announce the adoption of a Standards of Practice, a unified code of conduct, and code of ethics.

Strong professional ethics, education, and expertise within our profession are crucial to the wellbeing of the animals and humans we serve. The Standards of Practice is a set of cross-association guiding principles that will allow practitioners to understand what it means to be a competent, ethical professional in our field, and offers recourse to those rightfully demanding excellence in the field.

These shared standards provide a framework of principles, professionalism, skills, and values in positive reinforcement-based training. As members/certificants, each individual will undertake the following as a condition of membership/certification:


To understand and promote Least Intrusive, Minimally Aversive (LIMA) training and behavior work
To continue professional development by reading relevant material; attending conferences, workshops and seminars; and pursuing other educational opportunities
To review and understand source material and academic texts for information
To abstain from representing training and behavioral information as scientific, unless the information is derived from peer-reviewed and published research
To refrain from offering guarantees regarding the outcome of training and behavior work
To always maintain professionalism through:
Providing services honestly
Treating animals and clients respectfully
Valuing and preserving the privacy of clients
Maintaining professionalism with colleagues and other professionals.

*More about LIMA*
LIMA does not justify the use of punishment in lieu of other effective interventions and strategies. In the vast majority of cases, desired behavior change can be affected by focusing on the animal’s environment, physical well-being, and operant and classical interventions such as differential reinforcement of an alternative behavior, desensitization, and counterconditioning.

By defining LIMA, along with the Humane Hierarchy to refer to when struggling or frustrated in a training scenario, we provide a structure of ethical guidelines to avoid undue stress and discomfort to our human and animal learners. Use of LIMA shows trainers/behavior consultants how to avoid using punishment, instead of simply requiring that they do so without help in achieving that goal. We strongly feel that LIMA is the most in-depth, answerable, evidence-based set of applied guidelines for trainers and behavior consultants focusing on positive reinforcement-based behavior change.

*These LIMA guidelines do not justify the use of aversive methods and tools including, but not limited to, the use of electronic, choke or prong collars, in lieu of other effective positive reinforcement interventions and strategies." Announcing a new Joint Standards of Practice*


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Love those new Standards of Practice


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That statement is not all that new. I belong to APDT and follow CPDT info in preparation to test for their certification. I use and instruct on use of a pinch collar with great care. With certain exceptions (trainers who don't understand the tool for the most part) and only failing other methods I will continue to do as I have. I also will continue to respect the choices of all trainers to use what tools they want as long as they are well versed in the proper use of such tools with essentially only one exception, that being unlimited choke collars of whatever material.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Ohhhhhh? I messed this up somehow?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> That's a shame...
> 
> *"Announcing a new Joint Standards of Practice for professional animal behavior consultants and trainers*
> 
> ...


Since Sisko and I have been practicing heeling inside, he's gotten a lot better! But there are times he will pull me (I'm a pretty small person and my ankle has started to hurt again) to where he wants to sniff and I feel like the Pinch Collar would be the best thing to teach him that it's not okay to pull me.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I can't recall - are you working with a trainer?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I can't recall - are you working with a trainer?


No, not right now.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

At the training yard, we did have some dogs yip when they first corrected themselves with a prong. I could pretty much tell in advance which dogs were going to be dramatic, and I pulled the owners aside and talked to them before it happened. Almost always it was dogs that had no guidance, and were now large and dragging their owners all over the place. Some of the owners had already sustained broken bones. Most of the times, these cases involved people who were close to rehoming dogs, even though they loved them.The prong collar was not used as a first choice; we much preferred to get a young puppy and work with positive reinforcement and shaping. If I ended up working one on one with the people, I would often have them handle my dog, so they could learn how to train with a responsive dog and I would handle their dog until it had settled down. By the end of the exercise, when they got their own dog back, both the owner and the dog had an idea of how to behave, and what to expect. I have never had a Herm Sprenger leave marks on a dog's neck, but I have seen some off brand prong collars that have sharp points leave marks. We highly encouraged the use of Herm Sprengers over any other brand. I know prong collar use is a touchy subject but there is a time and place for it. Much like electric collars really do the best job for training dogs to avoid rattlesnakes. Do I use prong collars. Yes, but I have torn rotator cuffs in my shoulders,nerve impingement in my elbows, and bad discs in my neck; I can not risk further injury. Do my dogs actually pull against the prong? Very rarely. Wilson is the worst, and he does a lot of hopping in place without really pulling. I get after him about it because, well it is irritating!


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## Eric (Jun 26, 2019)

I'm a little late to the discussion, but I wanted to chime in and say that I also use prong collars with both of my dogs - my 6mo spoo (Siouxsie) and my 4yo terrier mix (Cooper). Cooper will choke himself nearly to death if I walk him with just a flat collar, to the point that he has to stop frequently to hack and cough. If I stop walking when he pulls, then he just keeps pulling while stationary. It's completely ridiculous. I've tried a front-clip harness, and that helps reduce the pulling by about 50%, but it's still annoying to walk a dog with constant tension on the lash. He's a rescue and he's done this since I got him, and I haven't been able to train him out of pulling, so I went with the prong collar.

Siouxsie also likes to pull on a flat collar, but not to the point of choking herself. With her, I decided to start with a prong collar from the beginning, so that she doesn't get accustomed to being able to pull. From the first time I walked her with the collar, pulling was reduced to almost zero. After using the prong collar for a few months, she pulls much less when I do have her on a flat collar. I generally don't use the prong collar when I take her to public places, to avoid confrontation with people who think they are evil.

I know some people are uncomfortable with these collars, and I can understand why - they think it's hurting the dog, and I'm sure there are some people that abuse the tool and do just that. But my dogs both excitedly sit to have their prong collars put on when they know it's time for a walk. I don't think they would do that if it was a very negative experience.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am joining this conversation late. 
I want to thank Poodlebeguiled and her recommendation for the KikoPup video 

Also, for the recommendation of For Want of a Poodle and the recommendation to 'consider your mood before you go for a walk'.

And now the great link that Poodlebeguiled has posted!!!! *"Announcing a new Joint Standards of Practice for professional animal behavior consultants and trainers"*

If I see anyone walking their dog on a prong/pinch collar when I am walking my Spoo (or even by myself), I immediately cross to the other side of the street, or turn and reverse to go the other direction. To me it means that they have not trained their dog well enough with gentle and positive training, and I do not trust either them, or their dog. I am sorry to have to say this. 

Perhaps if I had ever adopted an abused, poorly trained dog who was uncontrollable I would think differently, but I have never done that. In that instance I might be able to understand a need for a prong/pinch collar. I am also confused about trying the collar on a persons arm. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to try it on the human's neck?


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Perhaps if I had ever adopted an abused, poorly trained dog who was uncontrollable I would think differently, but I have never done that. In that instance I might be able to understand a need for a prong/pinch collar. I am also confused about trying the collar on a persons arm. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to try it on the human's neck?


Kontiki, that doesn't make sense that you'd use it on an abused or poorly trained dog, though. I have two rescues, and the last thing I'd ever want to do is hurt their trust! Positive reinforcement works on ALL dogs unless they have something severely wrong with them (e.g., severe aggression), in which case they would need to be put down. 

And I agree, everyone who uses a prong should put it on their neck to see how it feels before they put it on their dog.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Actually I think the inner aspect of a person's forearm is way more sensitive than a person's neck which is why that is how I show people what it feels like.

Since the CPDT/APDT statement on LIMA was raised here I have been thinking a lot about it and want to offer a couple of thoughts specifically about the policy rather than necessarily the OPs questions. First, one always should (and I do) start with the most gentle and positive but purposeful techniques. Second this does not mean you shouldn't give the dog information that it has made a mistake when it has really learned the behavior you want it to emit. Learning theory based on the four quadrants should use all four quadrants as needed (not 25/25/25/25) but the four as needed and hopefully (and as true for most dogs) you end up spending 80-90% or more of your time in +R and much less time in areas of negative consequences. My dogs understand that no/oops/uh oh all mean they have made a mistake and that I will follow those words up with a repetition of the behavior asked for in a more instructive way. If Javelin misses a go out (something he knows very well) I say no and go collect him and take him closer to the go out (the correction) if I think he missed it because we haven't done it in a while. This makes it easier for me to really let him see the go out spot and to get there on his own correctly. I know a couple of people who praise their dogs any time they get within ten feet of the go out and never show them the correct place to go and you know what they often NQ this exercise because most dogs will do worse in a trial than training, so if training accepts a poor performance then trialing is likely to be a fail.

I get it that my example above matters little to most people, but what if the expected behavior is a polite under control exit from a home and the handler is medically fragile? What if the family wants this person to rehome this dog? What if the dog is a large and powerful dog? What if the dog has great exuberance and won't be patient going out the door on a flat collar, a harness of any sort or through any means other than being on a pinch collar? Assuming all other methods have failed and that the handler has introduced and taught the use of a pinch collar properly then the pinch collar becomes the least intrusive and minimally aversive (LIMA) tool for those conditions. Would you say it is better to sacrifice the owners mental health and sense of independence by rehoming that dog because the pinch collar is an evil tool?

And since this has now been repeated more than once on the forum I frankly am tired of being told my dogs are so poorly trained that people should cross the street to get away from them. I hope the OP's choice will be respected. Clearly she has some concerns about being injured and if she follows the method I described to her (which came to me from Ian Dunbar directly) she will get her dog's leash manners in hand and be able to fade the pinch collar.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Charmed said:


> At the training yard, we did have some dogs yip when they first corrected themselves with a prong. I could pretty much tell in advance which dogs were going to be dramatic, and I pulled the owners aside and talked to them before it happened. Almost always it was dogs that had no guidance, and were now large and dragging their owners all over the place. Some of the owners had already sustained broken bones. Most of the times, these cases involved people who were close to rehoming dogs, even though they loved them.The prong collar was not used as a first choice; we much preferred to get a young puppy and work with positive reinforcement and shaping. If I ended up working one on one with the people, I would often have them handle my dog, so they could learn how to train with a responsive dog and I would handle their dog until it had settled down. By the end of the exercise, when they got their own dog back, both the owner and the dog had an idea of how to behave, and what to expect. I have never had a Herm Sprenger leave marks on a dog's neck, but I have seen some off brand prong collars that have sharp points leave marks. We highly encouraged the use of Herm Sprengers over any other brand. I know prong collar use is a touchy subject but there is a time and place for it. Much like electric collars really do the best job for training dogs to avoid rattlesnakes. Do I use prong collars. Yes, but I have torn rotator cuffs in my shoulders,nerve impingement in my elbows, and bad discs in my neck; I can not risk further injury. Do my dogs actually pull against the prong? Very rarely. Wilson is the worst, and he does a lot of hopping in place without really pulling. I get after him about it because, well it is irritating!





lily cd re said:


> Actually I think the inner aspect of a person's forearm is way more sensitive than a person's neck which is why that is how I show people what it feels like.
> 
> Since the CPDT/APDT statement on LIMA was raised here I have been thinking a lot about it and want to offer a couple of thoughts specifically about the policy rather than necessarily the OPs questions. First, one always should (and I do) start with the most gentle and positive but purposeful techniques. Second this does not mean you shouldn't give the dog information that it has made a mistake when it has really learned the behavior you want it to emit. Learning theory based on the four quadrants should use all four quadrants as needed (not 25/25/25/25) but the four as needed and hopefully (and as true for most dogs) you end up spending 80-90% or more of your time in +R and much less time in areas of negative consequences. My dogs understand that no/oops/uh oh all mean they have made a mistake and that I will follow those words up with a repetition of the behavior asked for in a more instructive way. If Javelin misses a go out (something he knows very well) I say no and go collect him and take him closer to the go out (the correction) if I think he missed it because we haven't done it in a while. This makes it easier for me to really let him see the go out spot and to get there on his own correctly. I know a couple of people who praise their dogs any time they get within ten feet of the go out and never show them the correct place to go and you know what they often NQ this exercise because most dogs will do worse in a trial than training, so if training accepts a poor performance then trialing is likely to be a fail.
> 
> ...


Thank you, very much for posting this. I also do not want Sisko to be labeled as a bad or untrained dog (though he still needs more training, but I've just gotten to the point where I'm better myself so that I can properly train him within the last month) that should be avoided like he's some kind of aggressive dog. Sisko is still learning to be calm around new people and dogs.

I don't want to be called cruel or a bad owner for using a Pinch Collar when it's my last option. When Sisko was in group obedience, the trainer mentioned in class that you could use a Pinch Collar as a last resort. The trainer is Jeanne Hampl and she uses positive dog training.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I read Lily cd re's threads and post before I joined PF and have always really liked and enjoyed them, and I have mad respect for her and everyone else on this forum. I know that I'm pretty new here, but I do ask for at least some respect, but I also understand there's going to be disagreements sometimes, but those should be respected. I want to try and be the best dog trainer I can be using a positive approach. 

Sisko and I got derailed from training because I unexpectedly got sick and stayed like that for a long time. This was us while we we're starting to get back on track, but we tried running:?? This is a learning experience for me and we're both taking baby steps, but I'm getting better at it and so is Sisko. I'll try the Pinch Collar on my neck.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Fenris, this is a very, very, very long, ongoing debate. We're _always_ going to hear both sides, and everyone is entitled to give their opinion, as long as it is respectful (and I believe it has been on this thread). The fact remains that prong collars are not +R, and some of us only use +R. However, Catherine is an amazing trainer who has an excellent relationship with her dogs and treats them well. There is no doubt in my mind that her dogs are completely undamaged by prong collars. Unfortunately, hardly any people who use prongs have her level of expertise.

I'm glad you are on the mend. Please let us know how trying the pinch collar on you goes


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Fenris-wolf said:


> I read Lily cd re's threads and post before I joined PF and have always really liked and enjoyed what she has to say and I have mad respect for her and everyone else on this forum. I know that I'm pretty new here, but I do ask for at least some respect. I want to try and be the best dog trainer I can be using a positive approach. Sisko and I got derailed from training because I unexpectedly got sick and stayed like that for a long time. This was us while we we're starting to get back on track, but we tried running:?? This is a learning experience for me and we're both taking baby steps, but I'm getting better at it and so is Sisko.





MaizieFrosty said:


> Ferris, this is a very, very, very long, ongoing debate. We're _always_ going to hear both sides, and everyone is entitled to give their opinion, as long as it is respectful (and I believe it has been on this thread). The fact remains that prong collars are not +R, and some of us only use +R. However, Catherine is an amazing trainer who has an excellent relationship with her dogs and treats them well. There is no doubt in my mind that her dogs are completely undamaged by prong collars. Unfortunately, hardly any people who use prongs have her level of expertise.
> 
> I'm glad you are on the mend. Please let us know how trying the pinch collar on you goes


I'm glad that we hear both sides, I like hearing both. I'm sorry if I sounded mean or anything, I just really do not want to be thought of as a bad or terrible owner. I know no one said I was, I'm just sensitive, Sisko is my first dog that I've ever raised. It's true that they aren't +R. Yeah, that's true too! Okay, I will! ? Thank you!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

You didn't sound mean to me. And I'm glad you're here


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

MaizieFrosty said:


> You didn't sound mean to me. And I'm glad you're here


THANK YOU!?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Sisko did really well with walking and ignoring 2 Golden Retrievers today?. I kind of started a journal for his progress. I'm glad to be here too.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

What a good boy! A training journal is a great idea.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Good boy, Sisko!

And good for YOU for sticking with it! Do you know how many dog owners don't?? I'm guessing most. They resign themselves to the behaviour or just stop taking their dog further than their front yard. Everyone loses.

As far as the prong collar goes....my biggest concern with aversives is that a dog can pair the negative sensation with something that should be a positive. Like if they see another dog and then PINCH. That's not good. Or every time they see a scary looking man, or an elderly person with a walker. PINCH. Or children. PINCH. 

I trust that you're doing your homework and it's going to go well for you and Sisko. But I'm still wary.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Good boy, Sisko!
> 
> And good for YOU for sticking with it! Do you know how many dog owners don't?? I'm guessing most. They resign themselves to the behaviour or just stop taking their dog further than their front yard. Everyone loses.
> 
> ...


Thank you!? I've seen a lot of owners who don't stick with it as well. I hate when that happens. You're right, everyone does loose when that happens? I feel like it wouldn't be fun to have a dog like that.


Yeah, I'm still concerned about that too. 

I'm doing my research??


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think this discussion has been really respectful and I am glad all POV are being read and thoughtfully replied to. MF thank you for recognizing that if people understand their tools they can be used effectively even if not +R. I do know trainers who turn their pinch collars into +R to some extent. They teach the dog that a little pop is a motivation by coupling it to an immediate treat or release to a game. I can't say I am well versed or comfortable enough to do it myself but the people who use that motivational pop (the tiniest little jig) are people who routinely show up in the top ten at obedience nationals and whose dogs are happy happy workers.

Consistency and persistence are critically important to success. Keeping a log or blogging what you do can be really useful in that.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I have a Service Dog. I hired awesome trainers to help me to train him as no SD program was training what I needed. The trainers I used all advised against prong collars. My Spoo SD is now 10 years old. 

Tonight we went to a coffee shop to meet friends. When we walked in there was a Golden Retriever (supposedly SD) who started barking. My spoo simply looked at him and turned his back as he had been trained with R+. The Golden continued to bark for about 5 minutes while the owner used his prong collar and shushing, etc. before his dog was finally quiet. But his dog continued to pace back and forth for almost 15 minutes before finally looking exhausted and laying down.

My Spoo has has never barked in public after training, even when he was 2 years old. What he got tonight was a bunch of love and pets instead of prongs and reprimands as he simply put his back to that dog and laid quietly loving the affection he got.

You are free to use any methods you want of course. In the past I chose, and now still choose to believe and follow those incredible trainers who use R+ methods. I will continue to cross the street and/or avoid any team with a dog on a prong collar.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Thank you Poodlebeguiled for giving us the definition from a Standards of Practice across IAABC, APDT, and CCPDT. about not using prong collars. 

This helps me decide who to get advice from, and who to consider but then choose someone else when looking at the most professional trainers.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> I think this discussion has been really respectful and I am glad all POV are being read and thoughtfully replied to. MF thank you for recognizing that if people understand their tools they can be used effectively even if not +R. I do know trainers who turn their pinch collars into +R to some extent. They teach the dog that a little pop is a motivation by coupling it to an immediate treat or release to a game. I can't say I am well versed or comfortable enough to do it myself but the people who use that motivational pop (the tiniest little jig) are people who routinely show up in the top ten at obedience nationals and whose dogs are happy happy workers.
> 
> Consistency and persistence are critically important to success. Keeping a log or blogging what you do can be really useful in that.


I never heard of that before, that's awesome!

Should I do a thread blog on here??


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Eric said:


> I'm a little late to the discussion, but I wanted to chime in and say that I also use prong collars with both of my dogs - my 6mo spoo (Siouxsie) and my 4yo terrier mix (Cooper). Cooper will choke himself nearly to death if I walk him with just a flat collar, to the point that he has to stop frequently to hack and cough. If I stop walking when he pulls, then he just keeps pulling while stationary. It's completely ridiculous. I've tried a front-clip harness, and that helps reduce the pulling by about 50%, but it's still annoying to walk a dog with constant tension on the lash. He's a rescue and he's done this since I got him, and I haven't been able to train him out of pulling, so I went with the prong collar.
> 
> Siouxsie also likes to pull on a flat collar, but not to the point of choking herself. With her, I decided to start with a prong collar from the beginning, so that she doesn't get accustomed to being able to pull. From the first time I walked her with the collar, pulling was reduced to almost zero. After using the prong collar for a few months, she pulls much less when I do have her on a flat collar. I generally don't use the prong collar when I take her to public places, to avoid confrontation with people who think they are evil.
> 
> I know some people are uncomfortable with these collars, and I can understand why - they think it's hurting the dog, and I'm sure there are some people that abuse the tool and do just that. But my dogs both excitedly sit to have their prong collars put on when they know it's time for a walk. I don't think they would do that if it was a very negative experience.


Thank you, Eric for chiming in? Sisko will sometimes pull while stationary too, it can be really annoying. I know what you mean about the front-clip harnesses. Sisko would pull with them too and didn't care if it was trying to pull him sideways. That's so cute that they sit excitedly ?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

kontiki said:


> I have a Service Dog. I hired awesome trainers to help me to train him as no SD program was training what I needed. The trainers I used all advised against prong collars. My Spoo SD is now 10 years old.
> 
> Tonight we went to a coffee shop to meet friends. When we walked in there was a Golden Retriever (supposedly SD) who started barking. My spoo simply looked at him and turned his back as he had been trained with R+. The Golden continued to bark for about 5 minutes while the owner used his prong collar and shushing, etc. before his dog was finally quiet. But his dog continued to pace back and forth for almost 15 minutes before finally looking exhausted and laying down.
> 
> ...


That's awesome!? Feel free to leave a photo of your spoo if you want. I live in Washington State. Do you know if there are awesome trainers like the ones you had for your spoo? We're going to be doing private lessons for Sisko, but I would like to try someone else for group classes.

Oh no! I doubt that was a SD. There's a Labrador retriever guide dog where I live that gets distracted from his job when he sees other dogs and people☹ I try to avoid them, but this dog will give looks at people who pass by like?, but I still move along. That's not good about the Golden Retriever and the owner ?, but I'm glad that your spoo got lots of love and pets?. Can you see all of the emojis? Please let me know if you can't because it takes away from the story about the Labrador Retriever.

I'll be testing the Pinch Collar on myself(around my neck) before I put it on Sisko, and if it hurts me than I won't put it on Sisko. He doesn't pull me as much, but he still does sometimes. I know I liked it, but I don't think I thanked Poodlebeguiled for her last post about standards of practice.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My opinion is that prong collars (yes, they are prongs that poke into your dog's skin) are inhumane. I have trained many dogs, some much bigger and stronger than your poodle to walk nicely on a leash using a clicker and preventing unwanted behavior in the first place by managing the environment. (the reason Eric's dog pulls on the leash on a flat collar is because he has walked with the dog while he's pulling instead of removing that reinforcer of walking forward while pulling and offering an alternative and walking in low distraction areas first...prevention, prevention, prevention)

I think that these kinds of "tools" are old school and some of the best trained dogs I've ever seen are trained using positive reinforcement type methods, which means no painful or intimidating tools. (and anyone who tells you it doesn't cause pain or discomfort is kidding. It wouldn't work if it didn't.) I disagree with the idea that because it works, it's okay. I don't think it's okay to have a dog feel the threat of pain if he doesn't do a certain thing that a human wants. Dogs can learn without that and _do_ all the time. 

Read some stuff from Karen Pryor. She trained dolphins for Sea World and you can't use a prong collar on a dolphin or any other kind of punishment. And dolphins don't have the same inherent relationship, that phenomenal thing that we have with the most biddable domestic dog. Other good reading is Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash. There are lots of good books written by the top behaviorists. Most of them do not use these kinds of tools. Some do under the most unusual circumstances, such as snake aversion training. I can understand that one. That's really serious stuff.

As far as I'm concerned, winning obedience ribbons should never be a reason for using pain or discomfort to train a dog. (imo) I've been training dogs for many years, some of that time professionally... and never had to use intimidation or pain to modify behavior and some of those dogs have been very big and strong, determined and had terrible manners. The reason being, it _can_ and often does cause some bad side effects. I'm sure there are dog owners and particular dogs that can handle it okay but to me, that doesn't make it okay to do that to a dog. But the point is there _are _alternatives to this and those alternatives work better! Maybe not a quick fix but better because you're not hurting your dog and you get the desired behavior. Please enjoy reading these links. There's a reason they're banned in many countries, along with shock collars.









Top 10 Reasons Not to Use - SF SPCA


The San Francisco SPCA is dedicated to saving, protecting, caring, and advocating for animals. We are a nationally-recognized leader in animal welfare, with a history of innovation in animal care, animal rights, and proactive prevention programs.




www.sfspca.org







There's lots of good stuff to learn on this link. Some good videos off to the right side of the page as well.









Choke and Prong Collars | Victoria Stilwell Positively


Choke and prong collars are still extremely popular with many dog owners. But did you know there are more effective and humane alternatives to using them on your dog?




positively.com


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> My opinion is that prong collars (yes, they are prongs that poke into your dog's skin) are inhumane. I have trained many dogs, some much bigger and stronger than your poodle to walk nicely on a leash using a clicker and preventing unwanted behavior in the first place by managing the environment. (the reason Eric's dog pulls on the leash on a flat collar is because he has walked with the dog while he's pulling instead of removing that reinforcer of walking forward while pulling and offering an alternative and walking in low distraction areas first...prevention, prevention, prevention)
> 
> I think that these kinds of "tools" are old school and some of the best trained dogs I've ever seen are trained using positive reinforcement type methods, which means no painful or intimidating tools. (and anyone who tells you it doesn't cause pain or discomfort is kidding. It wouldn't work if it didn't.) I disagree with the idea that because it works, it's okay. I don't think it's okay to have a dog feel the threat of pain if he doesn't do a certain thing that a human wants. Dogs can learn without that and _do_ all the time.
> 
> ...


Poodlebeguiled - I just started walking with a prong collar with Annie, and it's really helped, but I hate using it. She walks beautifully on leash with a flat collar (all through clicker training/stop and don't let her pull, etc). And then she sees a squirrel, and goes so suddenly crazy and wild I have fallen on ice a few times. The last time I was pretty bruised, so I immediately got a prong collar. She has a great "look at me" for other things... Treats - even cubes of raw steak or her ball! aren't working to distract her, I can't manage to control squirrels so she only sees them when she's underthreshold, and I've been working with various positive only methods for months without success. I think I am making progress and then - BANG - she starts it up again. A head halter didn't help (other than make me less likely to fall) and she really hated it. Look at me's not working. Stalking them quietly isn't working... The prong collar works(she immediately self-corrects, stops, doesn't thrash around, and just whines at the squirrel) but I really don't think I should need to control a 50 lb poodle with a prong collar, and I don't want to use it long term!

Do you have any other suggestions for dealing with prey-drive while walking on leash?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I have methods for training a dog to ignore prey but I'd have to be there...it's a lot to type. It involves set-up scenarios with faux prey, a bucket, a rope, a helper and it worked well on my Doberman who was, I'm pretty sure more muscular than a poodle. And he recalled mid chase of some deer when hiking. I had to have explicitly obedient dogs hiking in the wilderness back where I use to live. It _does_ take a lot of practice and work. The dog must learn to give you his attention and never mind the squirrel or other distraction in many locations and scenarios first before going out in the midst of high level distractions. He must go through training sessions over and over and it must be done systematically so it gets embedded in his little brain. It's hard because you're fighting instinct but it can be done and is done.

If you're out walking on ice, I might suggest those things you strap on your shoes that have spikes in them that dig into the ice and prevent falls. I also suggest not trying to train in the midst of the dog going ape shi!. That is not the time to train. More focus exercises on you in low distractions, various areas/locations, scenarios and gradually raising the level of distraction and raising the level of reinforcment proportionately. There are many mistakes people can inadvertantly make while training and then they think the method is flawed. But PR methods are proven to work and produce very successfully trained dogs. So if they aren't working, there's something not right with the technique. A good, pr trainer might be helpful. Have you tried a Halti-harness? Prevention is the best medicine. That saying goes for dog behavior also. Big time actually. Preventing unwanted behavior is worth many times over any tool. The trouble is that most people let their dogs pull them and keep on walking with tension in the leash, teaching the dog that that behavior (pulling with tension in the leash) IS what causes the dog to be able to walk. Yes indeed. People teach their dogs that only pulling will work to get the privilege of taking a walk. If a person isn't strong enough in the arms to hold the dog back, to stand like a tree, to turn and go back to where they came from (boring to the dog...not reinforcing) then the dog is too much dog for them. I lift weights. I'm pretty strong...getting stronger. But right now at my age, I probably wouldn't get a dog that was stronger than I am. My Doberman was 90 lbs of lean muscle...lots and lots of muscle. He ran for miles and miles on our hikes and was strong as an ox. I could still hold him still if need be if he were straining to lunge forward for some reason. (until he was better trained) But now??? I have my doubts. Hence my 4.5 and 8 lb poodles. lol.

I don't really know what to tell you other than finding a really good, really experienced trainer who _knows_ behavior inside and out, who knows techniques and methods to teach your dog and teach you how to teach your dog to walk nicely in spite of a squirrel. And if you must walk in ice, get yourself some of those spiky things you stretch over your shoes. I had those when I lived in north Idaho and they're wonderful. And cheap!

btw...when a dog is trained using positive reinforcement methods, the feed-back they get to let them know what they did isn't what you want is merely a lack of reinforcment, not a "correction." There is no need to tell them what they're not doing right. They get the picture because they don't get reinoforced. Dogs that are give feed back from punishment learn that kind of feed back and can be confused when that feed back is changing. It's like changing the rules in the middle of the game. Additionally, f the owner thinks they know something because they've done it before, but this time the dog doesn't do it right, well...that's not all she wrote. It doesn't matter if they've done it before lots of times. There's more to it whey the don't do it. (it's got to do with their reinforcement history and motivation, not their morals) and so they shouldn't be corrected with a painful aversive. Dogs trained using PR learn _how_ to learn better than anything else There's more to the story. But I'm off to the gym now so no more time.

But I do get it that you have to do what you have to do to walk the dog. I just encourage the OP with a young, inexperienced dog with a relatively fresh slate to look into alternatives first.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> My opinion is that prong collars (yes, they are prongs that poke into your dog's skin) are inhumane. I have trained many dogs, some much bigger and stronger than your poodle to walk nicely on a leash using a clicker and preventing unwanted behavior in the first place by managing the environment. (the reason Eric's dog pulls on the leash on a flat collar is because he has walked with the dog while he's pulling instead of removing that reinforcer of walking forward while pulling and offering an alternative and walking in low distraction areas first...prevention, prevention, prevention)
> 
> I think that these kinds of "tools" are old school and some of the best trained dogs I've ever seen are trained using positive reinforcement type methods, which means no painful or intimidating tools. (and anyone who tells you it doesn't cause pain or discomfort is kidding. It wouldn't work if it didn't.) I disagree with the idea that because it works, it's okay. I don't think it's okay to have a dog feel the threat of pain if he doesn't do a certain thing that a human wants. Dogs can learn without that and _do_ all the time.
> 
> ...


Thank you Poodlebeguiled? I've been on Karen Pryor's website before. Do you have a first book that you would recommend that I start off with? Thank you for the articles too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If we really want to be deeply honest about R+, even using a flat collar, harness or leash or combinations thereof that compel the dog's behavior and/or limit the dog's choices then the training is not entirely +, To be truly positive reinforcements only the dog should never where a collar, harness or leash of any sort. Be careful with harnesses that note they prevent jumping up as they restrict the dog's front end movement and can cause damage to shoulders and elbows.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Lily cd re - yes, I'm very aware of the harness issues. Plus, it wouldn't work for this behaviour (thrashing about on leash). 

Poodlebeguiled - Agree with you 100% about how well just standing like a tree works like to prevent pulling. I've done this with Annie since she was a baby and her walking is usually great. And yes - the failure with getting her to stop this is undoubtedly because of how I'm implementing it - the trick is figuring out what I'm doing wrong! I think the challenge is it's not really possible to avoid the trigger until I've got good focus - so every walk she gets more practice at ignoring me when there are squirrels. I actually OWN some cleats, I just suck at guessing when there will be ice that I'll need them! 

We are, coincidently, actually seeing a trainer tomorrow. Getting assessed for our current skills so we can join obedience classes/sports classes, in the hopes it will give Annie more to think about/do. It will be both of our first formal classes. The videos of her classes (with happy dogs on flat collars wagging their tails as they heel) vs the other local trainer's (with nervous dogs on pinch collars heeling) are pretty dramatic. If I like the trainer, I'd be willing to work with her on squirrel chasing. The previous trainer I spoke to a few months ago (I can't make it to any of her classes) suggested the tree method + turning away - which hasn't helped at all, I'm afraid - and also giving my dog a job. 

I guess I need to make a training plan. Pinch collar for now on daytime walks, while I continue to work on stopping the CAUSE of the behaviour.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Also - just thinking about your story about your Doberman and off leash walks, PB... realized I don't have this issue when she's off leash. She recalls beautifully off of birds, cats, etc. She doesn't recall off of something when she's already at it (baby skunk). I can't recall interacting with squirrels off leash though she will recall to inside if she's barking at one on mom's porch. Squirrel obsession is definitely cumulative - I can get her past the first squirrel far easier than the 10th on the walk. I have no clue how to work with these observations, but it's interesting...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Thank you Poodlebeguiled? I've been on Karen Pryor's website before. Do you have a first book that you would recommend that I start off with? Thank you for the articles too.


Culture Clash would be the first I'd recommend.

I do not personally equate a flat collar or harness with a shock or prong collar. Obviously, dogs need to be on some kind of collar. The least aversive is what is I'm talking about. If people don't allow their dogs to walk while pulling, but only when the dog gives them slack, they cause no pain or threat of pain and that can be trained using pr methods. Of course, any collar can cause pain and some of those harnesses can cause skeletal issues so they should not be used in lieu of training but as a bridge. But something has to be used to hang onto our dogs lest they run out into the street in front of a car. The premise of positive reinforcement or progressive trainers is that they use the least aversive, least forceful methods necessary. (as it is written in that thing I posted. I don't want to get into a big debate on this or stir up bad feelings. I simply have an opinion (it can't be helped) or philosophy that I share with many, as a matter of fact... and that is that a dog...any dog can be trained without using something that pokes or pinches or otherwise convinces them to behave lest they get hurt. I just think from my own experience that they are not needed and can and often do have some bad side effects. And part of that philosophy is that I don't feel like I have a right to use what I consider too much force or intimidation against another species. Maybe part of that comes from my studies of evolution of dogs and how they and humans came to have this phenomenal relationship. I feel like they are bigger than we can imagine. There's something very deep. Anyhow, until they're banned in this country as they are in many others, do whatever is necessary for you. But do explore alternatives because there most certainly are perfectly viable methods. One might need a good trainer to help out.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Agree about Culture Clash!


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Culture Clash would be the first I'd recommend.
> 
> I do not personally equate a flat collar or harness with a shock or prong collar. Obviously, dogs need to be on some kind of collar. The least aversive is what is I'm talking about. If people don't allow their dogs to walk while pulling, but only when the dog gives them slack, they cause no pain or threat of pain and that can be trained using pr methods. Of course, any collar can cause pain and some of those harnesses can cause skeletal issues so they should not be used in lieu of training but as a bridge. But something has to be used to hang onto our dogs lest they run out into the street in front of a car. The premise of positive reinforcement or progressive trainers is that they use the least aversive, least forceful methods necessary. (as it is written in that thing I posted. I don't want to get into a big debate on this or stir up bad feelings. I simply have an opinion (it can't be helped) or philosophy that I share with many, as a matter of fact... and that is that a dog...any dog can be trained without using something that pokes or pinches or otherwise convinces them to behave lest they get hurt. I just think from my own experience that they are not needed and can and often do have some bad side effects. And part of that philosophy is that I don't feel like I have a right to use what I consider too much force or intimidation against another species. Maybe part of that comes from my studies of evolution of dogs and how they and humans came to have this phenomenal relationship. I feel like they are bigger than we can imagine. There's something very deep. Anyhow, until they're banned in this country as they are in many others, do whatever is necessary for you. But do explore alternatives because there most certainly are perfectly viable methods. One might need a good trainer to help out.


Thank you, very much!? I feel like there's something very deep too. I felt that with all my dogs that I've lived with in the past, and now I'm starting to feel it with Sisko. I'm still exploring alternatives too? I'm more than willing to try different methods and research. We're going to be taking private classes, but I would like to have someone else's help for group classes. PB, do you know anyone or can you recommend someone please? I think you would like this article about wolf puppies fetching. Hold on please, I'll find it right now?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Agree about Culture Clash!


Okay! I got two books now that I need from Amazon?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Here you go PB! And anyone else who's curious? 








Fetching With Wolves: What It Means That A Wolf Puppy Will Retrieve A Ball


Some wolf puppies will unexpectedly play "fetch," researchers say, showing that an urge to retrieve a ball might be an ancient wolf trait and not a result of dog domestication.




www.npr.org


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I think the challenge is it's not really possible to avoid the trigger until I've got good focus


Yes, I understand about the off leash compliance and the problem with the lunging while on the leash. With a well planned, systematic training process that a really good trainer can help you with, your dog can learn that whether or not he's on a leash, coming to you, giving you his attention pays off much, much, much more handsomely that chasing after or reacting to anything else in the environment. Your problem is very common. I've worked with loads of dogs that did that sort of thing, including my own. You can use tools and things but every time your dog gets hyped up (even if he can't lunge because of the prong collar) his stress hormones fire up, his respiration, bp etc etc. He is in a state of mind that a predator is in when he sees a squirrel. lol. You can't reach him. You can't train him. He's not going to be capable of anything. He never will. But training him correctly will correct or rather...compensate for this instinct. My dog use to lunge like crazy. It was so embarrassing. But he improved and learned that it's better not to do that than to do that. He learned what TO DO instead that was more reinforcing and it became habit or just a way of life. It takes time and work to train a dog.

I would recommend doing a little research on doggie zen. In other words, deferring to you for what he wants. _You want to chase a squirrel? Okay. Do this first...come to me and sit or stay by me and sit. Then you can chase the squirrel. _Of course this is done in a controlled environment with a helper and a way to convince him to come first by making the "squirrel" inaccessible if he doesn't come first. He learns that staying by your side works better for him than chasing or lunging after the squirrel who promptly disappears if he doesn't do the desired behavior. Anyhow, that's it in a nutshell. Your dog could use lots more practice with doggie zen. Look up LAT (look at that) training, It's yer choice...another fun training game. Practice this kind of thing in all kinds of areas.

Here's another good link with a lot of resources: There's a link to Shirley Chong...another great trainer among other good resources. I really like this: (I know of another Diamonds in the ruff in Calgary. Super too. I think this is another one)









Our Philosophy


We support the use of scientifically-based methods of training and behavior modification, and interactions with animals based on compassion and respect.




www.diamondsintheruff.com




(I don't know why the link went on like a paragraph) Hmmm....I'll try this: Diamonds in the Ruff

Anyhow, I guess everyone has to follow their heart and do the best they can. It's just me reporting what I've experienced and what I believe. We all love our dogs, that's for sure. And it's natural we'll all tend to have varying thoughts on things. That's okay too. Nobody is setting out to cause harm to their dogs and that's the main thing. Good luck. ?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Reading some of this excellent advice, I can't help thinking about far it is beyond the ability (or even interest) of most dog owners. 

I know so many people who don't have time to think between work and kids and general life stuff. And then they bring home a dog, too, because dog ownership is so normalized in our culture, despite being at odds with the average modern western lifestyle.

I guess that's why it's not all that uncommon for well-intentioned dog owners to jump straight to the misapplication of aversives. Most I assume don't even have exceptionally challenging dogs. Nor have they enlisted professional help. They're just doing what they feel is necessary to handle their dogs politely in public. They're doing their best.

We ran into an acquaintance at the market the other day, who also happens to have a spoo, and she almost immediately lowered her voice a notch and asked, "Do you have a shock collar yet? You need one with these poodles, you know."

She wasn't embarrassed. She didn't stress the importance of using it correctly. She just wanted to make sure I knew I _needed_ one.

Anyway, I could ramble forever on this topic. But I want to say I am so impressed with the thoughtful advice and, yes, sometimes debate I see on this forum. And I'm also grateful for the honesty I see from those seeking help. You all set shining examples.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Here you go PB! And anyone else who's curious?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, retrieving is something akin to an instinct that of course, originated in wolves...to bring back food to the mom and pups perhaps or something they like to do as puppies in play to practice for this function perhaps or maybe just plain old play. And then domestic dogs came along and acquired this and other predatory instincts from their relatives, which were relatives of wolves. The one big difference is that domestic dogs will play much more as adults than wolves will as adults. Dogs are actually neotenic versions of wolves. We are neotenic versions of Chimpanzees. We play more as adults than Chimpanzees play as adults. They play as youngsters though....like wolf pups. What's interesting is that we and domestic dogs (who co-evolved) are the_ only_ species to be neotenic or juvenile like to a counter part relative of sorts.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Reading some of this excellent advice, I can't help thinking about far it is beyond the ability (or even interest) of most dog owners.
> 
> I know so many people who don't have time to think between work and kids and general life stuff. And then they bring home a dog, too, because dog ownership is so normalized in our culture, despite being at odds with the average modern western lifestyle.
> 
> ...


That's why there are trainers and behavior specialists. lol. Of course, we're not all expert and have all the answers. But that's no reason to jump right in willy nilly and buy a shock collar. Good heavens!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Thank you, very much!? I feel like there's something very deep too. I felt that with all my dogs that I've lived with in the past, and now I'm starting to feel it with Sisko. I'm still exploring alternatives too? I'm more than willing to try different methods and research. We're going to be taking private classes, but I would like to have someone else's help for group classes. PB, do you know anyone or can you recommend someone please? I think you would like this article about wolf puppies fetching. Hold on please, I'll find it right now?


I probably don't know any trainer for you because I don't even know where you live. But if you look up the websites of those organizations I posted early on in this thread, you should be able to find someone in your area. Do still check up on them...watch a class first. Make sure you see no rough treatment. I've heard of some horror stories about dog trainers, even those affiliated with these "PR" organizations that do not adhere to their philosophy and sometimes there's some serious problems. So watch a class first to make sure you like how the dogs are treated, how the trainer communicates with the students, ask people how they've like the trainer, watch the dogs...how do they look....You can also ask someone with a happy, well behaved dog if they had a trainer and who was it. So, you can find someone good no doubt. Keep us posted. Best wishes.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Yes, retrieving is something akin to an instinct that of course, originated in wolves...to bring back food to the mom and pups perhaps or something they like to do as puppies in play to practice for this function perhaps or maybe just plain old play. And then domestic dogs came along and acquired this and other predatory instincts from their relatives, which were relatives of wolves. The one big difference is that domestic dogs will play much more as adults than wolves will as adults. Dogs are actually neotenic versions of wolves. We are neotenic versions of Chimpanzees. We play more as adults than Chimpanzees play as adults. They play as youngsters though....like wolf pups. What's interesting is that we and domestic dogs (who co-evolved) are the_ only_ species to be neotenic or juvenile like to a counter part relative of sorts.


I read about dogs being neotenic versions of wolves too. It is interesting! What do you think those extinct wolves were like? Did you know about the domesticated foxes? Do you think the extinct wolf was wolf and fox like? I haven't read much about Canine evolution, but I would like to learn more


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I probably don't know any trainer for you because I don't even know where you live. But if you look up the websites of those organizations I posted early on in this thread, you should be able to find someone in your area. Do still check up on them...watch a class first. Make sure you see no rough treatment. I've heard of some horror stories about dog trainers, even those affiliated with these "PR" organizations that do not adhere to their philosophy and sometimes there's some serious problems. So watch a class first to make sure you like how the dogs are treated, how the trainer communicates with the students, ask people how they've like the trainer, watch the dogs...how do they look....You can also ask someone with a happy, well behaved dog if they had a trainer and who was it. So, you can find someone good no doubt. Keep us posted. Best wishes.


I live in Gig Harbor, WA. I Looking at your post about it last night. Thank you for your post? That's disgusting!?? Okay, I'll make sure to go to a class first. Okay, I will(might be making a thread blog on here?) Thank you?! All of you guys have been really awesome and helpful to me and Sisko??. I hope one day I can repay it somehow, and help out other people with their dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes, I have read about Dmitry Belyaev's wild fox study...fascinating. One theory is that the more tame wolves that could eat in the proximaty of humans transformed over time the way the foxes did in the study...that along with tameness or docility (the only criteria for breeding the foxes) causes the physical changes due to a change in the pituitary because of the docility. (happy hormones increase, brain gets smaller and other more juvenile features crop up) Long story...Anyhow, it seems very plausible. I think the proto dog had developed drop ears, smaller jaws/teeth and a curl in the tail, white in the fur and some other changes. There's a fascinating book which I loved, if you're interested Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution

Gig Harbor is a darling, quaint town. I owned a lot near Gig Harbor but sold it fairly recently.

That's neat that you're thinking of making a blog. Good for you! And I'm sure you'll be a good help one day to others.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I would recommend doing a little research on doggie zen. In other words, deferring to you for what he wants. _You want to chase a squirrel? Okay. Do this first...come to me and sit or stay by me and sit. Then you can chase the squirrel. _Of course this is done in a controlled environment with a helper and a way to convince him to come first by making the "squirrel" inaccessible if he doesn't come first. He learns that staying by your side works better for him than chasing or lunging after the squirrel who promptly disappears if he doesn't do the desired behavior. Anyhow, that's it in a nutshell. Your dog could use lots more practice with doggie zen. Look up LAT (look at that) training, It's yer choice...another fun training game. Practice this kind of thing in all kinds of areas.


I feel like a small child whining..._ but I have!_ lol. But yes... her doggie zen still needs work... She's good at It's Yer Choice. LAT is a challenge. i get her attention, then she won't look away. I increase the level of difficulty so she will look away - and she won't look back. Sigh... We do a lot of "work for this, then you can get that" stuff. My favourite is fetch. I make her sit, down, stay etc (often from a distance) and THEN I throw the ball. I also often make her wait after I've thrown it for permission to chase it down. Hmm... maybe next we can work on changing positions while the ball is on the ground. We were, for a while, practicing "sit and look nicely, and you can chase the squirrel" - but it seemed to make things even worse. My father offered to "help" by shooting a squirrel and letting her have it. Funnily, I didn't think that would help. I'm hoping classes will help us practice behaving and focus around her other biggest excitement trigger (other dogs), and the mental stimulation will help her be less bored, so squirrels will lose some appeal. Here's to hoping. In the mean time - pinch collar.



PeggyTheParti said:


> I can't help thinking about far it is beyond the ability (or even interest) of most dog owners.
> ......
> I guess that's why it's not all that uncommon for well-intentioned dog owners to jump straight to the misapplication of aversives. Most I assume don't even have exceptionally challenging dogs. Nor have they enlisted professional help. They're just doing what they feel is necessary to handle their dogs politely in public. They're doing their best.


Yes, 100% agree with you here....


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Yes, I have read about Dmitry Belyaev's wild fox study...fascinating. One theory is that the more tame wolves that could eat in the proximaty of humans transformed over time the way the foxes did in the study...that along with tameness or docility (the only criteria for breeding the foxes) causes the physical changes due to a change in the pituitary because of the docility. (happy hormones increase, brain gets smaller and other more juvenile features crop up) Long story...Anyhow, it seems very plausible. I think the proto dog had developed drop ears, smaller jaws/teeth and a curl in the tail, white in the fur and some other changes. There's a fascinating book which I loved, if you're interested Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution
> 
> Gig Harbor is a darling, quaint town. I owned a lot near Gig Harbor but sold it fairly recently.
> 
> That's neat that you're thinking of making a blog. Good for you! And I'm sure you'll be a good help one day to others.


WHOA? Thank you, for the book! I'll have to get it. 

My family and I used to live in Tacoma and liked it better than Gig Harbor, but we really like the waterfront here and there's almost always people with their dogs there?

Thank you!☺


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I feel like a small child whining..._ but I have!_ lol. But yes... her doggie zen still needs work... She's good at It's Yer Choice. LAT is a challenge. i get her attention, then she won't look away. I increase the level of difficulty so she will look away - and she won't look back. Sigh... We do a lot of "work for this, then you can get that" stuff. My favourite is fetch. I make her sit, down, stay etc (often from a distance) and THEN I throw the ball. I also often make her wait after I've thrown it for permission to chase it down. Hmm... maybe next we can work on changing positions while the ball is on the ground. We were, for a while, practicing "sit and look nicely, and you can chase the squirrel" - but it seemed to make things even worse. My father offered to "help" by shooting a squirrel and letting her have it. Funnily, I didn't think that would help. I'm hoping classes will help us practice behaving and focus around her other biggest excitement trigger (other dogs), and the mental stimulation will help her be less bored, so squirrels will lose some appeal. Here's to hoping. In the mean time - pinch collar.
> 
> 
> Yes, 100% agree with you here....


I play the same style of fetch with Sisko? I started LAT training with Sisko too. He will stare and not move when he sees people and other dogs _sigh_ but we haven't been doing it for very long


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

If you have a meet & greet with a trainer, watch how Sisko responds to them. Peggy absolutely told us that our trainer was a winner. (And she responded similarly when she met the lovely Poodlebeguiled! Relaxed and curious.)

Even now, what feels like a lifetime since those early days, our trainer will sometimes use Peggy as an example in class and I marvel at their easy partnership. It's like they speak the same language.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> If you have a meet & greet with a trainer, watch how Sisko responds to them. Peggy absolutely told us that our trainer was a winner. (And she responded similarly when she met the lovely Poodlebeguiled! Relaxed and curious.)
> 
> Even now, what feels like a lifetime since those early days, our trainer will sometimes use Peggy as an example in class and I marvel at their easy partnership. It's like they speak the same language.


Okay, thank you! That's so cute ? so Peggy was like ''this is the one?!'' That's awesome that you guys got to meet?

Whoa, that's awesome?!


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## Latte12 (Jan 3, 2016)

Latte12 said:


> I'm not a trainer and I have an exceptional SPOO, of course all of us do. When Latte was 1+ we moved from a 1 acre country house to downtown Seoul, South Korea. He had never been on a leash except to to the vet. He started pulling on the leash and lunging at everyone and every dog. It was very embarrassing and I was being scolded by passersby. I knew he was frightened and taking in too much environmental stimulation. One day I refused to walk when he pulled. Take 2 steps, he pulls, I stop. Take more steps etc, etc. After 3x he got it. Now, a squirrel or rabbit can cut in front, he will bark and whine, but the leash never gets taunt. I could never condone using a pinch collar or choke collar on any POODLE.


I now use a martingale show collar. A thin fabric leash with the collar built in. I would no recommend this leash for anyone with a dog who pulls or is prone to lunging or misbehaving, the thin collar could cut or break. Actually Latte doesn't need a collar, but you know "Other People" will talk, take pictures to post on the blog or send to the police. Oh where can I live with lot's and lot's of poodles and no people. Rainbow bridge here I come.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Latte12 said:


> I now use a martingale show collar. A thin fabric leash with the collar built in. I would no recommend this leash for anyone with a dog who pulls or is prone to lunging or misbehaving, the thin collar could cut or break. Actually Latte doesn't need a collar, but you know "Other People" will talk, take pictures to post on the blog or send to the police. Oh where can I live with lot's and lot's of poodles and no people. Rainbow bridge here I come.
> View attachment 463896


Nice!? That's sad that there are a lot of Poodles with no owners where you live?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Nice!? That's sad that there are a lot of Poodles with no owners where you live?


He was just saying paradise would be a world with no humans but lots and lots of poodles.

I can sometimes relate to this!! ?


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> He was just saying paradise would be a world with no humans but lots and lots of poodles.
> 
> I can sometimes relate to this!! ?


Oh!?????


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Okay, I know I said I was going to get the Pinch Collar, but my mom and I were talking about what would happen if Sisko saw another dog who was still in training too, I'm 95% sure he would still pull even while wearing a Pinch Collar. So after some really deep thought about that I decided it wouldn't be the best for Sisko. Thank you to everyone who chimed in! (Hugs)


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Latte12 said:


> I now use a martingale show collar. A thin fabric leash with the collar built in. I would no recommend this leash for anyone with a dog who pulls or is prone to lunging or misbehaving, the thin collar could cut or break. Actually Latte doesn't need a collar, but you know "Other People" will talk, take pictures to post on the blog or send to the police. Oh where can I live with lot's and lot's of poodles and no people. Rainbow bridge here I come.
> View attachment 463896


I forgot to say, nice pic!??


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

What are you planning to use until he is more reliable? A head halter? I could see that helping with your mobility issues. Just be careful not to let him jerk his neck by running the length of the leash. If you keep the leash fairly short he shouldn't hurt himself.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Starvt said:


> What are you planning to use until he is more reliable? A head halter? I could see that helping with your mobility issues. Just be careful not to let him jerk his neck by running the length of the leash. If you keep the leash fairly short he shouldn't hurt himself.


I'm planning on using a harness, but I'm not sure which one to get yet? might start a new thread for that?. Sisko hated the head halter! He would always find a way to destroy them even when it was on him. They're his mortal enemy??


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just as with any other tool acceptance of a head halter has to be taught. They are a tool that most dogs really hate and resist since most people just put them on and expect them to perform a miracle. Same thing with many types of harnesses.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Fenris - have you and Sisko tried the "walk with the leash behind your back" method? Basically, if your dog is on your left side, then hold the strap part of the leash with your left hand (loosely), have it behind your back, and then hold the loop with your right hand. It means that when the dog pulls, force is transfered you your centre of gravity (your back)rather than pulling you off balance. It also means when the dog pulls, he gets no reward since he can't pull your hand forward and get "just a little bit!" further. I often do this when I'm walking on ice as I'm less likely to fall if Annie pulls suddenly.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Fenris - have you and Sisko tried the "walk with the leash behind your back" method? Basically, if your dog is on your left side, then hold the strap part of the leash with your left hand (loosely), have it behind your back, and then hold the loop with your right hand. It means that when the dog pulls, force is transfered you your centre of gravity (your back)rather than pulling you off balance. It also means when the dog pulls, he gets no reward since he can't pull your hand forward and get "just a little bit!" further. I often do this when I'm walking on ice as I'm less likely to fall if Annie pulls suddenly.


No, I haven't. Thank you, For Want of Poodle?! I can try this in a few minutes because I have to take Sisko out now.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Well - sorry for the thread hijacking Fenris !- I've seen some progress. After yesterday, when I walked her and she screamed so loudly (while not pulling at all on her pinch) about squirrels that someone came out of their house to see what was happening(!!!!), I pulled out the big guns. Instead of our regular beef lung, dried egg, and dried cheese treats - I took three slices of sandwich meat on our morning walk. We practiced "LOOK!" with a clicker the whole walk. By the end of the walk, she'd almost completely stopped yodelling at squirrels (although she was still actively scanning/sniffing), and managed to walk past an offleash small dog barking at us without even a glance. She even volunteered her attention on a few about-turns we did. I guess a higher value (wet) treat, and switching treats up occasionally is the lesson here. I should note that I'd tried high value treats before the pinch without success. I think the realization of "well, I can't chase it anyway" has helped.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Well - sorry for the thread hijacking Fenris !- I've seen some progress. After yesterday, when I walked her and she screamed so loudly (while not pulling at all on her pinch) about squirrels that someone came out of their house to see what was happening(!!!!), I pulled out the big guns. Instead of our regular beef lung, dried egg, and dried cheese treats - I took three slices of sandwich meat on our morning walk. We practiced "LOOK!" with a clicker the whole walk. By the end of the walk, she'd almost completely stopped yodelling at squirrels (although she was still actively scanning/sniffing), and managed to walk past an offleash small dog barking at us without even a glance. She even volunteered her attention on a few about-turns we did. I guess a higher value (wet) treat, and switching treats up occasionally is the lesson here. I should note that I'd tried high value treats before the pinch without success. I think the realization of "well, I can't chase it anyway" has helped.


It's okay! This can be for anyone? awesome! I'm so glad Annie did well!?????


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