# These colors, are these purebred Poodles?



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Purebred? Probably. Well bred? Probably not. Honestly, I'm not impressed with their Porties, either. Buckeye Puppies looks to be a broker site (think online consignment shop). 

To answer the color question, yes, Poodles come in a variety of both solid colors and patterns. Pretty much the only pattern not historically seen in the breed until recently is merle, and that was introduced within the past couple of decades or so by people crossing to herding breeds that carry merle, and then back-breeding to Poodles and falsifying registration papers. For AKC, while multi-colored dogs can be registered and compete in companion and performance events, only solid colored dogs can compete in conformation. In UKC, all colors and patterns except merle are allowed to compete in all events Poodles are eligible for, with solid colored and multi-colored dogs shown separately in conformation. 

Two good places to start looking for a breeder are the Poodle Club of America's breeder list Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America and the United Poodle Association's member list Members The PCA is the parent club for the American Kennel Club, and the UPA is the parent club for the United Kennel Club.


----------



## PhoebeDuck (6 mo ago)

You'll want more than a "1 yr genetic guarantee"... Think hip, eyes, elbows being tested. Are they OFA certified? Pennhip? Do they show in the conformation ring? A breeder showing in the ring, and being successful there, is a breeder that knows what they're doing and will produce a poodle that looks, acts, and moves like a poodle should. Fewer health issues because they have a quality line. Fewer behavioral issues because they take the time to socialize their puppies. And they test the puppies personalities to match them to the right homes.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I agree with the previous posts. They don't appear to do any orthopedic tests which is a big red flag. And those poodles do not look well bred even if they are purebred.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Whoa up folks. Let's not criticize the breeder of things they aren't guilty of. The listing is confusing, but I was able to find the health test results for the sire (Advanced Search | OFA) and dam (Advanced Search | OFA).

Edited to add: 
I'd be happier if the parents had some sort of show record.
I like the fact that the muzzles have been shaved. At least the dogs have had some grooming handling. I'd be happier if the feet were also shaved. 
I hope the outdoor poses mean the pups have been exposed to different experiences, but it's impossible to say from a few snapshots on a sales page. The poses make it impossible to accurately assess conformation. The only tail I can see on any of the puppies looks to be docked a bit short, but that might just be the angle of the photo.
The $600 price is exceptionally low for a purebred poodle, especially one with the level of health testing listed on the OFA site. It's basically the same price as if you came home from a pup from a poodle rescue organization. I suppose this pup being 19 weeks already and the breeder getting out of the poodle business could account for the price; it's a clearance price, so to speak.

If you are looking for a cheap puppy that's available now, this one is probably a better bet than many. If you are looking for a well bred puppy from a serious breeder, there are other breeders I'd consider first.


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I would be concerned that their dogs are always (and only) outside from looking at the pictures. I want a dog raised inside a home, with people and other dogs.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

cowpony said:


> Whoa up folks. Let's not criticize the breeder of things they aren't guilty of. The listing is confusing, but I was able to find the health test results for the sire (Advanced Search | OFA) and dam (Advanced Search | OFA).
> 
> Edited to add:
> I'd be happier if the parents had some sort of show record.
> ...


I'd wonder why they have L-C-P instead of a regular hip report on the dam, though? It's not a recommended test, and I think it's more common in smaller breeds?


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

No, just no imho. The puppies are adorable, but they do not look purebred and the prices are red flags. The dogs on website are poorly groomed and obese. They look like OESs, not Porties to me.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

TeamHellhound said:


> I'd wonder why they have L-C-P instead of a regular hip report on the dam, though? It's not a recommended test, and I think it's more common in smaller breeds?


The Buckeye listing is a bit odd. In one place it says Tanner is a standard and another that Tanner is a mini. Dunno if that was a mistake or if the litter is from an intervarietal breeding. 

My guess is this puppy is a step up from a puppy coming from a typical puppy mill broker or rescue. It's several steps below what a top tier breeder would offer. If I were looking for a puppy in Ohio I would reach out to Shyre, Ghibli, or Perigeaux. The Ohio breed clubs should also be able to provide breeder referrals. Ohio - The Poodle Club of America


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF.

This breeder is an interesting blip.

The Buckeye site ID'd "Mike and Mary" as the sellers. I tracked "Mike and Mary portuguese water dogs ohio " online to another site, Lancaster Puppies.

Lancaster Puppies set my antenna waving so I sleuthed on the USDA site and found Michael Troyer in Sugarcreek, Ohio listed as a Class A breeder.

With the license number you can go back to the home page and search inspection reports.










This search "michael troyer portuguese water dogs ohio" took me to, of all places, PawPrint Genetics where he's got a number of PWD tested.
Paw Print Pedigrees - Breeder Profile (pawprintgenetics.com)

Mike Troyer is listed as the breeder and the email address is "marytroyer....". 

The dog's names match the ones on their website. They may be trying to do some things properly, but I personally would just keep looking.

This could be the first time I've seen a USDA licensed commercial breeder that actually does some testing. The thing to know here is that being USDA licensed is not a selling point, it's a legal requirement when a breeder is over a certain threshold of breeding dogs. In 2021 on the date of inspection there were 28 adult dogs and 12 puppies.



I hope you don't mind but since you've mentioned that poodles, and probably researching quality, conscientious breeders also, are new to you, I'm adding some tips on choosing a breeder.


You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.


*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .
Outside of covid, these breeders will almost always welcome, even encourage, home visits to see the puppies and dam in person and see how they live.

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pup's life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Doing the PCA recommended health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
For example, some breeders require that a specific food be bought and fed, often thru them, or the health warranty is curtailed or voided entirely.

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait can be a year or more due to infrequent breeding - quality, not quantity. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of well-bred puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. *Most poodle colors fade.

Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".
A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*When looking at online sites, it's not just what you see, it's often what you don't see that's most important.*
Is the dam (and sire) also listed on the site, with full registry name and OFA testing?

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List, as well as breeders and other resources.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound, by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.

----

A quality conscientious breeder doesn't have to be a PCA member to follow the Code of Ethics. I believe that every breeder should.
Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


----------



## SandyTopknot (8 mo ago)

There are a lot of excellent answers to your question, @StevenLooking ... I'll pile on with a general piece of advice. Anyone can advertise in the AKC Marketplace. Look for puppies from people with "Distinctions" - AKC Breeder of Merit, AKC Bred With H.E.A.R.T, AKC Club Member, AKC Champion Bloodlines. The more "Distinctions" listed in their marketplace ad, the better. Those "Distinctions" mean that the breeder is working to better the breed, not just make more of that breed so they can make money. Then scroll down a bit further...the breeder can add more info about their involvement in dog clubs, dog shows and dog sports. The more of that you can see, the better you can feel about sourcing a furry family member from that breeder. 🐾 💖 🐾


----------

