# Poodles as stooge dogs



## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

Hello poodle people!
I'm new here and have not previously owned a poodle (only ever had staffies!) and am looking into getting a new dog in the next couple of years. My friend has a gorgeous standard boy who I've fallen head over heels in love with, the reading I've done and chats I had at discover dogs at crufts last weekend have further cemented that, on a personal level, a standard is the dog for me!
Now, as a dog trainer, I am always looking to expand my toolkit and would love for my next dog to be able to work as a stooge. This is my main reason for not getting another Stafford as they are (99% of the time) not suited to work as stooge dogs. I am aware poodles are used a service dogs, and as such are occasionally thrust into potentially stressful situations and cope well, but I'm also aware that many people say poodles are incredibly sensitive and can even be prone to anxiety, and stooge work requires confident dogs (all the poodles I've actually met have been confident dogs but you never know!). 

What I want to ask is, do you guys think, with thorough training and socialisation, a poodle would be confident and able cope with this kind of work? Or, better yet, has anyone ever used/met a stooge poodle?

TIA!


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

Oh also! 
If anyone needs extra info on what stooge work looks like, I work using systematic desensitisation meaning the dog being trained should never feel they need to react, but mistakes do happen and sometimes a dog may react to the stooge during a session, so poodle will rarely be reacted to. The stooge dog's only job is to exist calmly around the dog in training, at first this usually looks like sniffing around a small space in a field (with training dog at the other end sniffing about) , and later moving on to parallel walks, then passing walks. Very occasionally it may be decided to go on to actual interactions which can include play or just hellos.
Hope that helps!


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

The closest i've ever come to seeing a Poodle used in this way is actually my older boy Dublin. I've never worked a reactive dog around him but he's well enough trained through CGC and TDI to be used in regular classes. IE: when we have CGC or TDI practice (or just practice in general) and they need a dog for distraction or to practice any of the individual steps... we bring out Dublin. 

He's not perfect, he can get riled up if the other dogs do, but for basic exposure training and the passing walks and stuff he usually does great. He doesn't react to negative dogs (meaning if they growl at him he just ignores them). He doesn't trigger bad reactions in other dogs (he doesn't hard stare or bark). He would be better if i did more work with him but he's my grooming tester more than a training tester, so....

He's also great with puppies and small dogs. If a co worker gets a puppy that needs socialization, Dublin is more than happy to volunteer. Since he was raised with a small dog (who became more feeble as she aged) he learned to be gentle. He'll get right down on the floor, on his belly, to invite a puppy or small dog over to play. He's also good with nervous dogs - again, no hard staring and he doesn't lunge to play. He invites play from afar. He's really a good dog, all around. Not perfect, but good. 

Limerick, my puppy, is almost 10 months and.... has potential but we're not there yet. He's probably considered reactive in that he sees a person or dog and barks. Or growls. Or both. He's not aggressive, just loud. And boisterous. We're working on it. So he wouldn't be a good bet, at this point, but Dublin might with a little more work. 

So do Poodles have the potential? Sure! I think it's going to depend a lot on the individual dog's temperament - which means finding that good breeder producing stable, calm, suitable dogs - and of course the training/socialization. Which, i think you will have no problem with lol!


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## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

Ultimately, it depends on the individual dog more than the breed. At the same time, a good breeder will know and support her line's temperament and breed away from temperaments that are miserable to live with.

That being said, in my experience (poodle owned since 1997), poodles aren't usually up for "training" pups that aren't part of their pack. They tolerate them, but don't necessarily engage.

IOW, do your homework, meet the parents, etc. But no - a poodle probably isn't a good candidate for a stooge (they would, however, consider you to be a perfect candidate!).


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My older minipoo would be suitable for that kind of work but I don’t know if my younger one would ever reach that level of reliability.

My younger minipoo was used in our AKC CGC test as the dog all the other dogs had to walk by and sit near while the human handlers had a short conversation. In order for him to be so calm I had to really work to keep his attention on me and ignore the other dogs without using food or toys. I hope with more practice and exposure he’ll get there. My goal was a puppy with drive for dog sports and not calmness and that’s what I got. 

I do think you need to find a breeder who is breeding for those qualities and temperament tests puppies. Maybe someone breeding service dogs? You do want a quality breeder who does all the testing on the parents.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think @lily cd re has recruited her older dog to help in some training situations. However, her dogs have a lot of show and training exposure.


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## that_poodle_noodle (Jul 24, 2020)

I agree that it probably depends on the temperament of the individual dog. I also went to discover dogs at the weekend and I was really struck by how calm and aloof the poodles were there - Noodle would have been completely overwhelmed in that environment and she would have shown it by acting like a clown.

Like @Skylar says, you probably want to look for a breeder who focuses on temperament rather than chance it. Poodles can be very calm like the ones at discover dogs but they can also be quite silly, playful and sensitive.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

cowpony said:


> I think @lily cd re has recruited her older dog to help in some training situations. However, her dogs have a lot of show and training exposure.



I use Lily as the neutral dog for CGC tests and as a distance marker for reactive dogs to help me measure their thresholds, but I never put her in direct contact with any reactive dog.


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## LolaBonanaSheep (Dec 23, 2021)

I think it really depends of the specific dog, my female standard Poodle as the strongest prey-drive and is the opposite of calm and non-reactive, she also just loves Barking. I almost believe she's a cross with a sheep dog of some sort because she constantly circle around what ever is moving. She also extremely agile, athletic and energetic. Our Male Akita is much more passive and relax and almost never barks,though they are supposed to be reactive with strong prey drive. They are both just trained as regular pets and nothing specific, So I might not be a good example. If you could get the first pick of a litter and check the calmest puppy or get a young adult dog that you could know the temperament of before getting. I just think poodles excel in so many different things and learn really fast, so with training and the right dog it could work. Just like human have different personalities and different interest sometime it's hard to know in advance what one will be good at latter.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy will often mirror back the energy around her. When she doesn’t—when she’s quiet and disengaged—she’s actually absorbing it, and that’s much worse. She gets physically ill if she’s around stressed dogs for too long.

I would think a less sensitive breed is better suited for this type of work, but of course there are always exceptions. I’ve met some very steady, unflappable poodles.


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

TK9NY said:


> He's not perfect, he can get riled up if the other dogs do, but for basic exposure training and the passing walks and stuff he usually does great. He doesn't react to negative dogs (meaning if they growl at him he just ignores them). He doesn't trigger bad reactions in other dogs (he doesn't hard stare or bark). He would be better if i did more work with him but he's my grooming tester more than a training tester, so....


 Oooh interesting! Dublin sounds lovely 🥺 My current dog (staffie ofc) is trained to gold good citizen dog scheme which I assume is the same as CGC? Either way thank you great to hear that he copes well with the old growl and knows he doesn't need to freak out!


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

LolaBonanaSheep said:


> I just think poodles excel in so many different things and learn really fast, so with training and the right dog it could work. Just like human have different personalities and different interest sometime it's hard to know in advance what one will be good at latter.


Thank you, I am not planning to actually bring a dog home any time soon, once I make a final decision on breed, intend to begin a long journey to find the right breeder, with dogs who would be a good fit for me, then develop a relationship with them and ideally watch a litter grow up somewhat before actually getting a pup myself -quite the lengthy process! But I really want to maximise my chances of success!
Also so weird how your Akira is so unflappable with dogs! Goes to show you can spend months picking dogs but anyone can get an exception!


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy will often mirror back the energy around her. When she doesn’t—when she’s quiet and disengaged—she’s actually absorbing it, and that’s much worse. She gets physically ill if she’s around stressed dogs for too long.
> 
> I would think a less sensitive breed is better suited for this type of work, but of course there are always exceptions. I’ve met some very steady, unflappable poodles.


Thank you that's interesting! 
I've never heard of anything quite that severe, even among the most sensitive breeds! I'm curious, what is Peggy generally like with dogs outside of stressy situations?
Of course you're right and there are exceptions in every breed and, as I mentioned in a previously reply, my puppy selection process will be very extensive. However I do not want to battle against genetics, and want to maximise my chances of success. The dog will not be constantly around stressed dogs as my training emphasises keeping dogs below threshold, but for me to ethically put that dog in that situation it needs to be able to cope and, if that's unlikely, I'll have to try my luck elsewhere and mourn the poodle of my dreams 😭
Everyone has given me a lot to think about, thank you!


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

lily cd re said:


> I use Lily as the neutral dog for CGC tests and as a distance marker for reactive dogs to help me measure their thresholds, but I never put her in direct contact with any reactive dog.


Thank you! 
I like BAT setups for training so the dog would not be in direct contact with reactive dogs. 
In some very rare cases the dog may have the social skills that allow training to progress into direct contact but this is NOT a stressful situation, the training dog will already be desensitized to the stooge through BAT setups and parallel walks (at distance), just a positive interaction between dog friends! 
If lily is barked at by another dog does she handle this well? Is she able to brush it off? 
Thanks again )


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## sbar_98 (10 mo ago)

that_poodle_noodle said:


> I agree that it probably depends on the temperament of the individual dog. I also went to discover dogs at the weekend and I was really struck by how calm and aloof the poodles were there - Noodle would have been completely overwhelmed in that environment and she would have shown it by acting like a clown.
> 
> Like @Skylar says, you probably want to look for a breeder who focuses on temperament rather than chance it. Poodles can be very calm like the ones at discover dogs but they can also be quite silly, playful and sensitive.


That diversity is absolutely something that draws me to the breed. The idea of having a workable, goofy dog who is also able to switch off sometimes is the dream! The lovely poodle at discover dogs was so calm but, after speaking to the owner, he was clearly such a cheeky, loving goofball (even tried to pinch treats out of my bag!) I was ready to snatch the lead and run out the halls!

Like @Skylar says I will probably look around service dog breeders, although this is a bit trickier in the UK as we don't do as much of the "DIY service dog" thing. As mentioned in one of my prev replies, my puppy selection process is going to be so thorough it borders on a bit ridiculous but like you say, it's best not to leave these things to chance! And if, after everything, they aren't suitable/don't enjoy it I absolutely will not use them as a stooge and they will just be a pet and obedience dog 🙂


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes BAT set ups are basically what I do with Lily. Also Javelin barks at her and she barks right back until I tell them both to be quiet.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

sbar_98 said:


> Thank you that's interesting!
> I've never heard of anything quite that severe, even among the most sensitive breeds! I'm curious, what is Peggy generally like with dogs outside of stressy situations?
> Of course you're right and there are exceptions in every breed and, as I mentioned in a previously reply, my puppy selection process will be very extensive. However I do not want to battle against genetics, and want to maximise my chances of success. The dog will not be constantly around stressed dogs as my training emphasises keeping dogs below threshold, but for me to ethically put that dog in that situation it needs to be able to cope and, if that's unlikely, I'll have to try my luck elsewhere and mourn the poodle of my dreams 😭
> Everyone has given me a lot to think about, thank you!


My last dog was the same way (half poodle). Extremely sensitive.

Peggy is generally playful with polite dogs, but is reactive if repeatedly stressed, such as on a recent holiday when we stayed in a building full of reactive dogs. And before she was spayed, she almost got into a true fight with another bitch who (unknown to us) was going into heat. An intact male was the likely catalyst. Prior to that moment, they were all great playmates, but the dynamics were recipe for disaster.

In normal circumstances, if we pass a barking dog behind a fence on a walk, she may give a hop or a woof, but we can easily jolly her past. Sometimes she doesn’t react at all. I would consider her above average in this regard. However, if that barking dog is on a leash...look out. Lots of frantic barking until I can redirect her.

Although her sensitive temperament was apparent from day 1, she was pretty easygoing with other dogs until close to her second birthday. That’s when she started to assert herself more.


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