# What makes a Poodle, a GOOD poodle -Discussion



## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

I think you need to take the whole poodle, not just parts…..I find myself drawn to a particular line of dogs, and in fact the Kaylen Kaylens Show Kennel dogs are simply stunning to me. I love the heads especially but the balance that a good majority of them have is wonderful, they are put together very nicely (others may disagree, this is just my opinion). My new girl lacks a chest which causes her front legs to turn out a bit occasionally…..a good example of what I would like in a puppy’s chest is Roxy’s new gal (perhaps she can post a shot of the chest for me). Rockporter’s Jasper (Beth can we have a headshot) has a wonderful head and expression. What I don’t care for (I’m sorry, my own apricot has it and IMO ruins what could be a beautiful expression) is a liver nose (I hate to see a brood bitch with a liver nose, would love to see them gone completely) black points make the expression IMO.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

To me, a GOOD poodle has sound structure (especially a nice tuck and nice feet) and good health, is friendly but aloof with strangers, LOVES its people/person, is intelligent, is athletic, LOVES the water, and LOVES to retrieve. I want them to be serious when "working", but goofy/humourous otherwise.

I find there is FAR too much emphasis put on the looks of poodles, than the origin of the breed. I understand that sound body structure goes hand in hand with workability, but at the same time, you can't work a poodle that is afraid of water, or birds or won't retrieve...

I'm looking for pictures to show nice feet and a nice tuck....but it may be a while.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Very good points guys, but I should have clarified in my opening, I meant talking about certain parts of poodles. Of course other things are important too, but I meant physically, what's good and what's not.
Like, I like the heads on the Avatar poodles. I think they're correct heads.
Welcome to Avatar Poodles


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I love dark pigment, "tight" feet and good small almond shaped eye. 

Ormar Standard Poodles: Ormar Bring It On ("Jenna")


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## Teffy (Jul 4, 2010)

There used to be a site with pictures of exactly what you're asking for, pictures of show vs. pet quality poodle body parts e.g., roman nose vs. dishy nose etc... show head vs. common head...eye shape and placement.... It was awesome but I cannot find it for you. Maybe someone here knows what happened to it, maybe they were sued???

ARPO - Association for Responsible Poodle Ownership

Seriously that is what it was called, though from what I remember, it only talked about aethetics, nothing about health and/or training. I'd love to revisit the site again.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Can we discuss shape? Poodles are supposed to be as tall as they are long. Many Poodles being bred are misshapen. Usually too long rather than short.

I'll use Jas as the example photo since it's easy and I'm at the airport. He is 25" long and 25" tall. He's always been a perfect little box. My Toy is 9 3/4" tall and long.


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## Rockporters (Jan 14, 2010)

Kathy, this isn't a great photo but we're boarding now. 

Jasper also has nice almond shaped, DARK eyes. So many Poodles have light eyes or round eyes.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Teffy said:


> There used to be a site with pictures of exactly what you're asking for, pictures of show vs. pet quality poodle body parts e.g., roman nose vs. dishy nose etc... show head vs. common head...eye shape and placement.... It was awesome but I cannot find it for you. Maybe someone here knows what happened to it, maybe they were sued???
> 
> ARPO - Association for Responsible Poodle Ownership
> 
> Seriously that is what it was called, though from what I remember, it only talked about aethetics, nothing about health and/or training. I'd love to revisit the site again.


If someone could find this, that would be amazing 




Rockporters said:


> Can we discuss shape? Poodles are supposed to be as tall as they are long. Many Poodles being bred are misshapen. Usually too long rather than short.
> 
> I'll use Jas as the example photo since it's easy and I'm at the airport. He is 25" long and 25" tall. He's always been a perfect little box. My Toy is 9 3/4" tall and long.


Yes, poodles are meant to be squarely built dogs, but they can still be square, and not correct. A poodle with a flat chest could be as long as they are tall, but this would be incorrect. As they wouldn't be in proportion, and they would have terrible movement.

Also, the standard calls for a short loined dog, a Poodle could still be square, but not short loined. 

When saying they must be squarely built, there are some other factors that need to be taken into account 

Argh, if only I could find pictures!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Here are some structure examples - although drawings. Not promoting breeders, just an example. 
Standard Poodle Structure Explained


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Good pigment and good coat are important to me. Vegas has an *amazing* coat, his adult coat is coming in along his back and I LOVE it. Vienna on the other hand.. has the worst poodle coat I've ever felt. It's like it has something against the brush and feels like it needs to go on strike against it, but, her pigment is solid.


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> Here are some structure examples - although drawings. Not promoting breeders, just an example.
> Standard Poodle Structure Explained


Ollie, that is a perfect example....look at the drawings and then look at the dogs on the website :rolffleyes:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

haha ... I didn't want to say .. but LMAO


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Focus on the drawings guys lol! Again NOT promoting breeder:wacko:

The reality is hair hides many faults. I have always had a hard time with head or skull area as well as chest when in CC. These diagrams helped me see it better. I am hoping to see good things with this thread. I know a little but want to know much more!!


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

This photo was of CH Brighton Minimoto was taken by Diane Fields at the Greensboro shows in February 2007. I was not a big fan of Remy when she was out, but came to appreciate her moderation when Yes took over. In this photo you can see her lovely arched feet, her broad loin, and nicely conditioned rear, with a moderate amount of bone. She also has decent bend of stifle, which is a fixation of mine along with good feet. Her head never did that much for me.

The link to the photo is here:
Ch. Brighton Minimoto photo - Diane Fields photos at pbase.com

This youtube clip is of Remy in the BIS ring in Florida:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> .a good example of what I would like in a puppy’s chest is Roxy’s new gal (perhaps she can post a shot of the chest for me).



Here is my girl showing good chest ! Enzo has correct shoulders but his chest is not like Leila . Leila's is very prominent she had less hair in that picture and when I wet her down her chest is still there so its not her coat 

I will try to get some picture of her wet later( sometime next week lol) and post so you can see her structure better.













> What I don’t care for (I’m sorry, my own apricot has it and IMO ruins what could be a beautiful expression) is a liver nose (I hate to see a brood bitch with a liver nose, would love to see them gone completely) black points make the expression IMO.


I agree I do not like pink or liver noses on reds also it just does not look nice. I have seen a red puppy with green eyes and red nose ..... just not my cup of tea and I would not want to breed pink or liver nosed reds or apricots. I do like red nose green eyed APBT but judges also like them too lol


I will draw sketches of some pet quality dogs I have seen soon ( so people can't say I took their pics it will be my art work LOL)


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

jak said:


> I am concerned, at seeing how many pet quality dogs are continually being bred, but claiming them to be GOOD representations of Poodles. I want to make this thread into a discussion about different parts of poodles, like the head, coat, feet, structure, things like tail set, curve of stifles, front and rear angulations.


Head : I think a poodles head should be clean and not overly feminine in which the head looks fragile. Its not just the skull shape IMO that needs to look nice its the muzzle and the underjaw too. The expression as well. 

Stella aka Leila's mom has a nice head and this IMO is the same face and head my baby has  Nice dark eyes and rich black pigment. Look at the chin !









CH aizbel the knockout had a great head ! for a mini I attached picture. 

Some more excellent heads are Clarion poodles Minature Poodles | Clarion Poodles |

Look at Quervo and Nacho I have seen some of her dogs in person and they all had to die for head pieces.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Feet : "The feet are rather small, oval in shape with toes well arched and cushioned on thick firm pads"

This is one of my petpeeves. I have seen a lot of show dogs with cat like feet and I do not like it at all on a poodle. Not only is it not preferred but usually the dogs I have seen with the Cat like feet have straight Pasterns and from my experience with working dogs straight pasterns are not desired. I think a normal pastern is nice . I have seen some pet bred poodles with low or downed pasterns


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> Head : I think a poodles head should be clean and not overly feminine in which the head looks fragile. Its not just the skull shape IMO that needs to look nice its the muzzle and the underjaw too. The expression as well.
> 
> 
> CH aizbel the knockout had a great head ! for a mini I attached picture.


I am with you about underjaws, Roxy. It is hard to find a nice underjaw on standards these days, but your girl is looking promising. 

The Aizbel dogs were known for their beautiful heads--I love that picture. 

A standard head that I like is that of Bam Bam (CH Prestige I'll Do Anything). He has lovely length of muzzle without it being too narrow/snipey. I realize that a coarse head looks especially awful on a white, but it seems a lot of breeders have gone in the opposite direction and wound up with sharkey/snipey heads.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Hm.. The black and white picture you posted of the poo in the english saddle, Roxy, almost has too much chin for me =/ is that correct?


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## Sapphire-Light (Jun 9, 2010)

What I don't like in some BYB poodles is the heavy or or round skulls, a square short muzzle. hwell: also another things is very short legs.

Some of them look more like cotton de tulear than poodles.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sapphire-Light said:


> What I don't like in some BYB poodles is the heavy or or round skulls, a square short muzzle. hwell: also another things is very short legs.
> 
> Some of them look more like cotton de tulear than poodles.


Yes this is the problems with a lot of the red breeders stock, most have broad skulls ( amongst other problems) and I think its hilarious when some of these breeders state " Great conformation" :wacko:

I have also seen Some BYB dogs with low tail sets that look like lab tails.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Hm.. The black and white picture you posted of the poo in the english saddle, Roxy, almost has too much chin for me =/ is that correct?


They just need some underjaw I do agree with you his chin is extreme but I rather have that type of underjaw than none and look like a droopy hound dog lol


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Could somebody please post a link to a pic of a "good chin standard" and a "lacking chin standard"? I have trouble picking out what a bad chin looks like. Thanks.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

Teffy said:


> There used to be a site with pictures of exactly what you're asking for, pictures of show vs. pet quality poodle body parts e.g., roman nose vs. dishy nose etc... show head vs. common head...eye shape and placement.... It was awesome but I cannot find it for you. Maybe someone here knows what happened to it, maybe they were sued???
> 
> ARPO - Association for Responsible Poodle Ownership
> 
> Seriously that is what it was called, though from what I remember, it only talked about aethetics, nothing about health and/or training. I'd love to revisit the site again.


Teffy, ARPO is defunct, but you will find the info you were referring to here Poodle Studies - M. Scott, K. Murray and S. Bouchard 
There are some great photos on the site.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

Another useful link;
illustrated breed standard

And this is photos of Phoebe, who has a poor chin (though still not as extreme as many I have seen!!) as an example for BPP:


















vs Paris who has some reasonable chin (?)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

This is a GREAT thread, and I'm learning a lot.

Can someone comment on temperament and how it's judged?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

This is my boy Onyx at 9 mos. old. He is square, extremely long necked , which can not sport a very short back or he will look like a carricature.
He is what a breeder will label fancy and extreme, but at the same time sports a solid front and prosternum as well as a matching rear end assembly.
Also note the length of muzzle. A short muzzle on a poodle with such an extreme neck will not look good, a poodle that sports a long neck must have the length of muzzle to match to look balanced all over. Length of muzzle must go with length of neck.

Temperament is as equally important as sound structure.

When you have a structurally sound dog and temperament to match you have a good dog.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Bigpoodleperson:

To me this is what a proper chin looks like. The term used for chin in dogs is underjaw.
(Cole at 10 mos. old)


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## Teffy (Jul 4, 2010)

Vibrant said:


> Teffy, ARPO is defunct, but you will find the info you were referring to here Poodle Studies - M. Scott, K. Murray and S. Bouchard
> There are some great photos on the site.


Exactly! Thanks Vibrant!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Poodle Studies - M. Scott, K. Murray and S. Bouchard
> There are some great photos on the site.


This is an excellent website


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

What an excellent thread!! It's so informative, I'm loving learning this. 

But, I'm still a little confused about head shape and what is preferred. Can someone explain what is ideal in the ring, and what the parts of the head ARE? Lol! I'm seeing all these words I didn't even know. What are "head planes"? I'm assuming "chiseling" is referring to the bone structure and how visible it is... but could someone post some examples and explanations of poor head shapes vs good/preferred head shapes?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Teffy, ARPO is defunct, but you will find the info you were referring to here Poodle Studies - M. Scott, K. Murray and S. Bouchard
> There are some great photos on the site.



_Thank you for that link. I am studying and am going to keep it in my bookmarks._


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Birdie said:


> But, I'm still a little confused about head shape and what is preferred. Can someone explain what is ideal in the ring, and what the parts of the head ARE? Lol! I'm seeing all these words I didn't even know. What are "head planes"? I'm assuming "chiseling" is referring to the bone structure and how visible it is... but could someone post some examples and explanations of poor head shapes vs good/preferred head shapes?


Birdie, I think the PCA Illustrated Breed standard will help you here. There is a diagram at the beginning that labels all the parts, and line drawings illustrating certain faults. 

Illustrated Breed Standard


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## 1Jurisdiva (May 4, 2010)

I confess to being a newbie but these are my personal pet peeves:

I personally do not like pink skin pigment on a white poodle - when I went to a local dog show I was surprised by how many pink pigmented dogs there were. But then again, I also do not like the extreme black pigment where it really shows through on a close FFT. I think a white poodle is probably the hardest because it shows all of the flaws.

I really like nice oval eyes and an alert expression. Looking at the pics I really love how square Jasper is, and also appreciate a dog with long legs (I agree many are looking a little short legged).

I say all this and will probably fall in love with a bright pink white standard with cross eyes and dwarfism.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Taffy has a decent chin but you cannot see it because she has too much upper lip. She also has a slight roman nose. Perfect scissor bite.










She has a good high tail set but is longer in the body than tall. Straight top line. Feet: good, thick pads, not flat but not rounded up either...not splayed.










Eyes forward but a bit large.....people love her eyes but they are not correct according to standard. Very dark eyes with good expression; alert. Well set ears, although you can't tell by this photo, but leathers are a bit on the short side. I don't have any of her wet. Decent chiseling; not too refined, feminine. No excessive skin in the neck area. 










Properly set front legs falling just under or behind the ears. Elbow placed at the deepest part of her brisket. Again, legs are shorter than they should be. Smoothly muscled shoulders and strong. Back: A little too round in the pin bone. Good width of stifle; legs too short. Well set neck with good length.










Couldn't find a photo but she has straight hindquarters; not hockey, feet pointing straight forward when viewed from the front. Coat is not as dense as it should be but is frizzy and harsh, which I think is pretty good for an apricot. Good coat color.

Despite that fact that she is not square, she has lovely movement. She single tracks and floats with a slight spring in her gait. She carries her head and tail straight up.
_


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _Taffy has a decent chin but you cannot see it because she has too much upper lip. She also has a slight roman nose. Perfect scissor bite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is a known fact that most poodles that are a tad longer in back have better movement than a poodle who is short or too short in back.

The length of back allows the dog to extend in front and kick behind.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Spoospirit,

Since you posted pictures of Taffy, can I mention other things about her head that people might find instructive?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Well here is a Poodle that I think has some lovely qualities as well as some structural issues that fall short of the standard:

1. Tremendous fore-chest. This is what Poodles are so often missing today.
2. Lovely layback that goes BEHIND his elbow.
3. Well angulated in the stifle without being over done.
4. Great angle to his croup... not too flat or sloping.
5. Excellent tail set. Great shelf behind and super tail carriage.
6. Wonderful bone to size. Not too coarse. Not to light.
7. Fabulous depth of chest. All the way to the elbow!
8. Looks like great breadth of chest.
9. Great strong, even topline.
10. Coat looks dense and curly.
11. Neck set really well on his shoulders.

What would I fix?

1. Too long in the loin.
2. I'd give him more length of neck.
3. Not a pretty head.
4. Looks like he might be a bad Black. (hard to say)


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I have also admired this dog (CBrand's picture above). I love his rear--so nicely defined without being overdone. And who knew that poodles could have a forechest, LOL.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Carol:

This is trully a nice representative of the breed. His qualities far out weigh the negative parts in my opinion.
What is the breeding on this boy ?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I'll PM you the pedigree. He comes from "pet" lines so it is hard to know if he would breed true or if he is only a sport. I'm interested to follow his breeding career.


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Well here is a Poodle that I think has some lovely qualities as well as some structural issues that fall short of the standard:
> 
> 1. Tremendous fore-chest. This is what Poodles are so often missing today.
> 2. Lovely layback that goes BEHIND his elbow.
> ...


Taking a stab in the dark here, would this boy's name be Peyton?


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

Nope. Keep guessing!


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I'll PM you the pedigree. He comes from "pet" lines so it is hard to know if he would breed true .


He was deliberately bred from pet lines to avoid some of the 'popular sires' in most pedigrees today. This was done in an attempt to improve health and produce correct structure. I do know that one of the breeders that used him was very pleased with the pups, but I can't tell you what, specifically was great about them.
He is, indeed, a nice boy...one that could most certainly do what poodles were originally bred to do. It's easy to excuse a coarse head and poor coat colour when the dog is so correctly put together. He's my kind of dog!!
Thanks for posting this Cbrand.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> He was deliberately bred from pet lines to avoid some of the 'popular sires' in most pedigrees today. This was done in an attempt to improve health and produce correct structure.


I worry about this kind of language because it feels like it feeds into people's fears about show bred Poodles. Deliberately bred from pet lines? What exactly does this mean? Did the breeder of this dog deliberately avoid showing her Poodles in conformation or performance? 

As far as improved health goes, pet breeding does not equal healthier dogs. I'm a little worried that I don't see any health testing listed on OFA for this dog or his dam and sire or their dams and sires. Unfortunately, it also looks like one of this stud dog's offspring has mild HD (though that could be coming from the dam's side) and the paternal grandsire of this dog died of Bloat. Just food for thought when we are talking about improving health.




> I do know that one of the breeders that used him was very pleased with the pups, but I can't tell you what, specifically was great about them.


I'd love to see pictures and pedigrees if you have them. PM me. As I said, I'm curious to follow his breeding career. One of his offspring is going to be showing in our area and I'm very interested to see him and go over him.




> He is, indeed, a nice boy...one that could most certainly do what poodles were originally bred to do. It's easy to excuse a coarse head and poor coat colour when the dog is so correctly put together. He's my kind of dog!!


It would be fabulous for our gene pool if he could consistently reproduce himself. I'd love to see someone take a really pretty and typey bitch to him.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> Some more excellent heads are Clarion poodles Minature Poodles | Clarion Poodles |
> 
> Look at Quervo and Nacho I have seen some of her dogs in person and they all had to die for head pieces.


Quervo is Jäger's sire. I love Quervo (I've only seen pictures), he is so handsome, especially his head! Jäger's head is pretty, too, although not as nice as his daddy's. Jager does have beautiful, dark, almond-shaped eyes, though.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I worry about this kind of language because it feels like it feeds into people's fears about show bred Poodles. Deliberately bred from pet lines? What exactly does this mean? Did the breeder of this dog deliberately avoid showing her Poodles in conformation or performance?


It's not intended to feed into anyone's fears!!! We all know that standard poodles can have health issues, and no lines are completely 'clean'. We also know that the genetic bottleneck caused by popular sire syndrome has helped to cause an increase in the incidence of some of the inherited genetic illnesses. The breeders of this dog bypassed some of the 'popular sires' by seeking out unusual lines, that had stayed away from breeding out to the 'dog of the day'. No, it doesn't guarantee good health, and I have no idea about health testing on this dog or his ancestors. But, this dog is genetically diverse, which will be passed on to his offspring (so long as there isn't tight linebreeding or inbreeding within his family!), and in my opinion this is good for the standard poodle gene pool.
I'll PM you the website of the breeder who used him


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Vibrant:

Neck or no neck, pet bred to pet, etc... IF this dog was offered to me for breeding and gives me the diversity I am looking for I will use him at stud.
I have never used the dog of the moment.

Actually I used a dog last year who is not well known and who has not been promoted to death by his owner or breeder, yet I managed to get some nice pups out of him.

He is 6 years old and genetically tested clear and then some. His owner does CERF yearly as well as SA skin punch.. I can ask for no more. I am happy to use a dog who is extensively tested and of 6 years old.

NO poodle line is free of genetic mishap even lines we are not familiar with or are a total outcross still do not give us the 100% guarantee we will not produce genetic sad tales of loss.

I know of two breeders in Canada who have started producing some nasty stuff and they went to use an unknown dog strictly for health reasons.. so I am all for it.

Unless the dog looks like a total abomination I will go to use a dog that no one knows of but one that can offer me a total outcross and not have in his pedigree the popular dogs of today.

If someone is worried about not producing beautiful pups from such a male, then so be it.. at least they may/will produce something much more important.. called HEALTH !

Now, I TOO would like to know who this boy is, seriously and you can also PM me .

*C.Brand: 
I just noted you stated that this dog has no testing.. and that neither his sire or dam do. Why was he bred from then ??*


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## apoodleaday (Feb 22, 2010)

Here is another website www.dog.com/dog-breeds/poodle/ that has short videos on poodle conformation. It gives examples of both correct and incorrect structure, movement, and coat. The video player on the left hand side has videos broken into 4 or 5 categories so you don't have to watch them all.

I attached a couple of pictures of Lacey to show some correct and incorrect conformation points

The first picture of Lacey shows two of her faults
1) Eyes that are too round
2) Poor pigment/winter nose

In the second picture you can see some of her assets
1) She has a nice rear with good angulation.
2) She has a good tail set (a little hard to see as she is wagging here)
3) She has a nice top line
4) Overall structurally sound

In the second picture some of her faults
1) Lack of fore chest
2) Needs a little more depth of chest
3) Straight in front
4) A bit long in body
Anyone else please feel free to comment on what you see here, correct or incorrect.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Spoospirit,
> 
> Since you posted pictures of Taffy, can I mention other things about her head that people might find instructive?


_Sorry Carol. I missed this because I have been way too busy!!

Yes, you can. I don't mine you pointing out things that will help others learn._


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Jac Harbours "Brag" and Emily Cain's "Castor", are 2 of my favorite dogs conformation-wise. I will try to find pics.
Carole


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

What about Vienna? Back yard bred


















Sorry, hard to get a stacking picture alone :x bathed and fluffed on my table, and groomed at home. I tried to blend her bracelets. xP


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Olie, I love the dwawings and the explanation of the breed standard. Thank you. Those links for AKC, Poodle club of amer, etc should be posted somewhere at the top of the site here for easy access.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> What about Vienna? Back yard bred
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I really like Vienna and I'd be proud to have her in my home. As far as an evaluation, it is hard to tell because she is not stacked but my guess based on what I can see:

Great depth of chest
Good forechest
Nice tuck up
Fabulous pigment
Pretty good feet (toes might be tad in front)
Great bone (too much?)

Long in loin
Could use more angle in rear
Straight upper arm?
Ewe neck?

On top of this, you have said that she is really big all over. If you stood her up next to say, Delilah, would she look overly large and thus perhaps lack breed type?


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi there, 

Just wanted to say thank you for all the kind words about my boy Truman, the blue boy with the red collar and the big forechest. Someone noticed and alerted me that he was being discussed. It's a strange thing because I tend to be very low key about my dogs and I don't know the poster! I have my own assessment of him which differs a little bit from what others have said, but that's also because I know him for real - he's sleeping 5 feet from me. The picture is quite representative of him though. He's a lovely guy with an amazing temperament.

Natalie


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Thanks tons Cbrand!  Yes, she's very, very large, 26 inches, and I'm sure over 55 pounds (was 61 when I got her, but a little chunky) I'll have to see if I can stack her correctly. She also has a very low tailset, I wish that thing would stick up more! Her self stack is terrible too, she stands with her back feet very forward and stands on them flat, I have to pull them out for her to stand on her toes correctly.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Hi there,
> 
> Just wanted to say thank you for all the kind words about my boy Truman, the blue boy with the red collar and the big forechest. Someone noticed and alerted me that he was being discussed. It's a strange thing because I tend to be very low key about my dogs and I don't know the poster! I have my own assessment of him which differs a little bit from what others have said, but that's also because I know him for real - he's sleeping 5 feet from me. The picture is quite representative of him though. He's a lovely guy with an amazing temperament.
> 
> Natalie


Welcome, Natalie! I would love to hear your own thoughts and assessment of Truman.


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

Truman is perfectly square, and if he were actually long in loin, he would be out of square. He's got an amazing forechest (you can see his prosternum underneath the tags on the picture - that's bone) and very decent layback. He has tons of neck, but when a dog has a front assembly that is properly placed farther back on the rib cage, the neck starts farther back, so people used to dogs with necks on top of straight shoulders and fronts too forward can mistake that proper neck for being too short. (When you measure from withers to back of skull, the actual length is what is, and you can compare lengths among your own dogs.) Truman's head is not terrific, but it's not all back skull. It's just a bit heavy, and he doesn't have enough chin, but his teeth and bite are gorgeous, and his eyes are lovely in shape and dark color. He's a blue, though he was registered black, and he would have been a bad black, if he didn't turn charcoal gray all over. His coat is very cottony, which is disappointing, but it's thick. For me his pelvis is too short, but it's the right angle, and his tail set and carriage are terrific. He's got a very nice rear other than the shorter pelvis, with all the right angles, and he moves like a dream. I didn't know what a "ground covering" gait was till I saw him gait. He's 65lbs but he floats when he moves. His feet are a little big, but they are proper otherwise. His spring of rib is perfect, and is not narrow or broad. You can see that his elbows are properly below the withers, not beneath the neck or the ear, which would be too far forward. 

His temperament is rock solid - he can go anywhere, do anything. He's got some retrieve drive, though there are others in his line with TONS of drive, and he's just a joy to live with because he's such an even tempered boy.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Truman is perfectly square, and if he were actually long in loin, he would be out of square.


I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you, though my observations are based solely on the single picture I have to evaluate. I can see where Truman's ribcage ends and his hip bone begins. I would say that he is long in the loin. A dog can still be square but long in the loin if their rib cage is not long enough.




> He has tons of neck, but when a dog has a front assembly that is properly placed farther back on the rib cage, the neck starts farther back, so people used to dogs with necks on top of straight shoulders and fronts too forward can mistake that proper neck for being too short. (When you measure from withers to back of skull, the actual length is what is, and you can compare lengths among your own dogs.)


Truman's neck is beautifully set on and it may have quite a lot of actual length, but in relation to the rest of his body I'd still like to see him have more neck. He would look better balanced. How tall is Truman? How long is his neck based on your measurement from withers to occiput? I'd like to compare it to my bitch.


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

Carol, 

Would love to see a picture of your bitch. We will probably have to disagree on some things.  The boy has quite an amazing length of neck already. As for loin, if it were shorter, he'd be taller than long, and if his ribs were farther between, that would be strange. He's 25" square. Again, when the front is set so far back, the rib cage might seem short, but in fact it's not - the front is set on correctly. You should be able to count back from the rib the front is set on (find the one at the withers and run your hand down that for ease of counting and count back) to include the flying rib and there should only be 5 or 6 ribs. Most dogs I see have 7 or 8 ribs behind the front assembly. 

Natalie


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## murieics (May 10, 2009)

Natalie, 

I'm curious where you got the correct number of ribs from- I'm an amateur when it comes to conformation in poodles, so I'm not even going to try to debate type/correctness with anyone, but I was curious as to where you found something saying that 5-6 is the correct number of ribs to be behind the withers vs 7-8 (or how you came up with that number yourself if it is from your personal experience!). 

Muriel 

(Please excuse my ignorance if this is just a "common knowledge" type thing!)


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

That's an excellent question. My mentor taught me that - I didn't make it up.  It's just a concrete way of seeing where the front assembly is on the rib cage. The front assembly is the structure of the shoulder blade and upper arm which, unlike in humans, is not attached to the rib cage with bone. Therefore it can be very far forward or back, depending on the genetics, and while fronts far forward are flashy and give the appearance of a tall and elegant dog with a long neck, they aren't very functional, because the front legs don't really support the dog under the torso as they should. But it's far more common, especially in the show ring.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Carol,
> Would love to see a picture of your bitch. We will probably have to disagree on some things.


You can see her under the SHOWING category. Her name is Delilah.



> As for loin, if it were shorter, he'd be taller than long, and if his ribs were farther between, that would be strange. He's 25" square.


I'm not trying to nick-pick, but it is only because he has such an extreme forechest that he measures square. Based on overall balance, the dog looks slightly long.


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

I do agree he gives the impression of being long, except he's not, which I find really interesting. I don't think it's an extreme forechest, I think it's correct. If you look at PCAs illustrated breed standard ( at Illustrated Breed Standard ), he's correct.

Your Delilah is a lovely cafe color, and based on the pictures from the Farmington show, I see a couple of things, which they are limited because she's in coat and it's just a couple of pictures, of course. She is beautifully presented and has a lovely coat. She's also got a beautiful moderate rear, broad, muscled thigh, toes are just behind the rump bone if you draw a line down. Nice pelvic angle, and the pelvis looks good and long, which is not seen often enough. (The illustrated standard shows a shorter pelvis, but traditionally the pelvis should equal the length from rump bone to stifle and from stifle to hock.) She's got nice feet, and nice substance in terms of bone and muscle. Her front, however, is too far forward which is so common it seems like the norm. If you draw a line straight up from her elbow, though, it goes through her ear, not her withers. This could also be due to a straight upper arm, but I can't tell without putting my hands on her. The best thing about her head is the parallel planes - the plane of her muzzle is parallel to the ground, as is the top of her skull. This is usually seen now most in European poodles, but it's really nice to see here. She's a bit cheeky (see the illustrated breed standard again) and she's got a bit too much upper lip, but she seems to have a good chin.

All in all a very nice bitch. How tall is she? Let me know how long her neck is from the edge of the withers to the edge of the skull and I'll tell you Truman's.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Nice pelvic angle, and the pelvis looks good and long, which is not seen often enough.


She has good length of pelvis but I would like to see less slope. I think the angle causes her to move under herself a bit too much. I would like to see more drive and extension in the rear.




> Her front, however, is too far forward which is so common it seems like the norm. If you draw a line straight up from her elbow, though, it goes through her ear, not her withers. This could also be due to a straight upper arm, but I can't tell without putting my hands on her.


I would like to see her front set back a bit, but her withers extend well behind her elbow. Her upper arm is not too straight and she has some nice "return" on it (especially compared to most where the front leg goes all the way straight up into the shoulder). Part of what you are seeing is the fact that she is stacked up and cranked back. Frankly, even with good fronts, I have never seen as much upper arm angle as they show in the illustrated standard. I don't think that Poodles actually have that much length of upper arm.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Actually, on a re-viewing of those Farmington show pictures, I agree. Her front looks too far forward.


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## Vibrant (Dec 7, 2009)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> That's an excellent question. My mentor taught me that - I didn't make it up.  It's just a concrete way of seeing where the front assembly is on the rib cage. The front assembly is the structure of the shoulder blade and upper arm which, unlike in humans, is not attached to the rib cage with bone. Therefore it can be very far forward or back, depending on the genetics, and while fronts far forward are flashy and give the appearance of a tall and elegant dog with a long neck, they aren't very functional, because the front legs don't really support the dog under the torso as they should. But it's far more common, especially in the show ring.


Hi Natalie...good to see you here! 
You must be very pleased with Truman. I love to see a balanced, moderate, properly put together dog. Would like to see more like him in the show ring.
Vivienne


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Vibrant said:


> Hi Natalie...good to see you here!
> You must be very pleased with Truman. I love to see a balanced, moderate, properly put together dog. Would like to see more like him in the show ring.
> Vivienne


Natalie, why was Truman never finished?


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

Thanks to Vivienne for the kind words!! Nice to see you and Denise here!

And to Carol, he was never finished because it's very difficult to finish a dog who has never been shown. 

Seriously, there are a multitude of reasons, none of which has anything to do with the quality of the dog. First, I have 6 kids, so my time, energy and money goes to them first. Second, When he had the coat for it, I most likely would have had to dye him to finish him, which I wouldn't do. Third, I was told his head would prevent finishing, and since he does look so different from the dogs in the ring I don't find that too hard to believe. Now that I have a little more time, and he's obviously a blue, I toy with the idea of growing him out, but I haven't done it yet. 

I think his son Draco has a better head and has most of Truman's best qualities, plus gorgeous pigment, lovely expression, longer legs than Truman and tons of attitude. He's a total goofball right now at 8 months, but so was Tru at that age and he's now a very dignified and elegant guy. 

But, you know, these are pet lines - I didn't just buy a name, which would have been so much easier, so I keep my expectations low for what is politically possible. Thank heavens for Draco's owner Cathie and handler Cynthia, who can see his structure and are willing to give it a go despite the lack of titles in the pedigree. I warned them it wouldn't be easy, but that's what it will take to get some diversity into the breed for real. 

I know you are in the same area Carol, far away from me in NY, and I appreciate so much that you see something of value in Truman, so it's good to have allies.  I hope you can help cheer Cynthia on!!


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> But, you know, these are pet lines - I didn't just buy a name, which would have been so much easier, so I keep my expectations low for what is politically possible. Thank heavens for Draco's owner Cathie and handler Cynthia, who can see his structure and are willing to give it a go despite the lack of titles in the pedigree. I warned them it wouldn't be easy, but that's what it will take to get some diversity into the breed for real.


Ahh, I always feel like the Pollyanna in these discussions. But I was intrigued by your comments. I agree that there are a) fashions in the show ring and b) politics in the show ring. But not all judges like the same thing. And they don't know a pedigree when they see a dog, although presumably some lines are recognizable as a "Dassin look" for example. And sometimes you know the lines just by looking at the handler. 

Where a handler can be really helpful is knowing which judges are movement freaks (presumably they would take a long good look at Truman), which will put up colors and blues, which are the head hunters.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> I know you are in the same area Carol, far away from me in NY, and I appreciate so much that you see something of value in Truman, so it's good to have allies.  I hope you can help cheer Cynthia on!!


I saw Draco at the Arapaho show and went over him. Based on the one picture of Truman, I would say that Draco is the spitting image of his father. I'd love to see the bitch he was out of. I do wish Cynthia all the best.


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## pudel luv (Jan 23, 2010)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Truman ... he moves like a dream.
> I didn't know what a "ground covering" gait was till I saw him gait.


PoodlesdeGrenier

For the sake of this discussion, do you have any footage of Truman gaiting?
If so, it would be great to see it. From your description, it sounds like he's a smooth mover.

Also, welcome to the forum. We have two male standards: a 6 yr. old red and a 16 mos. old brown. Neither are showing, but are handsome gents with personalities to die for. Perhaps I'm just a "little" biased ... .


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Carol,
> 
> The boy has quite an amazing length of neck already. As for loin, if it were shorter, he'd be taller than long, and if his ribs were farther between, that would be strange. He's 25" square. Again, when the front is set so far back, the rib cage might seem short, but in fact it's not - the front is set on correctly. You should be able to count back from the rib the front is set on (find the one at the withers and run your hand down that for ease of counting and count back) to include the flying rib and there should only be 5 or 6 ribs. Most dogs I see have 7 or 8 ribs behind the front assembly.
> 
> Natalie


Glad to see you here. Lori Horst told me a little about you work with Poodles and it's always great to get another perspective.

I've seen many AM CH dogs with the front too far forward but I couldn't articulate the problem. This is very informative. 

Do you know if this fault is a factor into poor swimming ability? I'm training my 2 SPoos for hunting and I'm trying to learn to select better pups in the future. 

Thanks Desiree.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Third, I was told his head would prevent finishing, and since he does look so different from the dogs in the ring I don't find that too hard to believe.QUOTE]
> 
> The head would be the last thing for preventing him from winning. Many dogs I seen have looked like Truman and have finsihed
> 
> I would also like to see some video of Truman gaiting he is a nice looking dog. I would not even worry about his pedigree being pet bred or whatever. As long as he is to standard and has healthy lines and offspring that is all that matters IMO.


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## HOTW (Aug 31, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> . I would not even worry about his pedigree being pet bred or whatever. As long as he is to standard and has healthy lines and offspring that is all that matters IMO.


This si exacty howI feel about breeding. If yu do not see what you want in one realm look to another. Joker is from a breeding that combined show lines with more recent pet lines however his pedgree goes back to some very well known dogs quite quickly. I know what I desire in a Std Poodle and if it is showable tht would be a plus but it would not be the end of the world as long as it met the standard and was able to do the requirements of the breed. 

It used to be dog shows were a place to showcase a breeders dogs- it was not about winning the prize.It was a place for breeders to meet, shoot the breeze, compare livestock and have a jovial competition. It alowed people to see breeders dogs in a public arena as many did not allow strangers on their properies due to disease transmission issues in those days. A vet was there to check out the dogs beforehand and would kick off the property any dog that showed illness. Dog shows allowed breeders to get together with others of their breed interest and exchange ideas. Many lines of today are descneded from many of those early breeders who did not have loads of money but just an intense interest in their breed.

When I look at a Poodle I look at the dog then I ask about the pedigre not the other way around. Dolly is from pet lines as most Parti's will be at this but I'm sureas time goes on and pedigree research is doen on more and more parti pedigrees we will delve back into the past and find common ancestors.


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