# Catoctin Furnace Red Standard Poodles in Maryland Anyone have Experience?



## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

We are looking for a Standard in the North East/Mid Atlantic Area. Prefer Red or Brown and would like to drive to pick up rather than ship.

This breeder was listed on Facebook

Catoctin Furnace Red Standard Poodles, anyone have any experience with them good or bad?


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

It's good that they do health testing. I don't love that they don't seem to do anything with their dogs (showing, obedience, agility, hunting). They also don't seem to groom their puppies as much as I would like to see to help them get used to it (usually they start baths and shaving faces and such at 5 weeks or earlier and do it weekly).
I feel like they probably breed for color more than anything.
You could do worse, but you could do better.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Terry Farley, Red and Apricot Standard Poodle Farleys D Standard in Pittsburgh would be on my list. If he doesn’t have a breeding planned he could certainly refer you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I have the same concerns voiced by Mysticrealm, but additionally discovered through a Google search that Catoctin apparently studded or sold a male to another breeder who produces sheepadoodles (old english sheepdogxpoodle) which makes Catoctin a no for me since I would not support a breeder that contributes to the doodle craze.


FarleysD as suggested by Mfmst would be a much better option.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’ve seen 2 of FarleysD spoos and they were both beautiful dogs. Definitely consider this breeder.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Please contact Terry and John at Farley's D. They're in your designated area and are wonderful breeders who are invested in our amazing breed. Whether they have puppies or not they will support you and be wonderful guides on your search for an amazing puppy.

Best Wishes,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tabatha the only reason I didn't suggest you or Arreau was because of geography!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I like NOLA's geography, LOL


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## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you for the suggestion. I will contact Terry but Pittsburgh is too far for me (it is about 8 hours). I am east of New York City. I would be the only driver and I need to be able to do the trip in one day and I would like to see the parents, interact with the puppies and possibly visit before I make a decision if that is possible. 

My prior dog was 4 hours away and the trip ended up taking 6 hours each way due to weather and traffic and I could not visit before making a decision


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I do and don't in some ways understand why you think that Pittsburgh is further than you want to go, but think about making an overnight out of it. A puppy is a companion that hopefully will have many happy years with you so I don't think it is such a big deal to go further afield to find the right pup. If you are east of NYC then Pittsburgh doesn't really seem like so much more prohibitive a trip than Maryland. I realize it is too far to go visit and then go back a couple of weeks later, but with good references I could see foregoing the early visit. When we got Lily and Javelin we were lucky enough to be able to get visits with the puppies at about 5-6 weeks of age, but with Peeves we did not since they were about five hours away. Peeves is the 2nd pup BF has had from the same breeder, so we knew we would be satisfied.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

When I was searching for my first spoo (now 2 1/2 years old) I was also concerned about travel time and visits and limited my search to breeders who were ‘driveable’. In retrospect, it is more important to me to find a trusted breeder who can match me with the right puppy, than to find one close enough for multiple visits.

I visited ‘my’ litter at 5 weeks, but was prevented from making a second visit at 7 weeks due to a snowstorm, and this was just a few hours away, but safety was paramount. My breeder did a great job of matching me to a puppy and I would happily take another pup sight unseen from this breeder, if those were the circumstances. The breeder, after all, knows their puppies best after 10-12 weeks of observing and interacting with them.

Good luck in your search.


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## Saphire (Nov 15, 2013)

Thank you but how do you know a breeder is trustworthy? A friend told me about her experience, breeder came recommended by at least 3 people, my friend was the first one to pick up a puppy from a large litter, friend was told to pick which one she wanted! So friend did. Her dog is nice but she was hardly "matched." The puppies in question had very different personalities according to friend. Friend had not owned a dog in 20 years at the time so was hardly experienced


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I had a limited choice, that is, there were 2 males available based on my needs (performance) and I went with the pup that the breeder felt was best for me. (I’ve met the other male since then and wondered if either of the boys would be different if they were raised in different households!) I had the opportunity to be ‘first pick’ with another breeder but wasn’t comfortable with that as the means of placement. I follow many breeders on line, the good and the not as good, and ‘pick in order of deposit’ is still common, but it is not for me.

During my search I spoke by phone with several really good breeders. They were very useful conversations. I would happily have one of their dogs if the wait hadn’t been so long. The phone worked for me to learn about a breeder’s philosophy and build trust. The PF is at least a good screening tool to learn if another has had a particularly good or bad experience with a breeder.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Not all good breeders pick puppies for their buyers. Some absolutely put the puppy they think will be a good match on their own. Others will work with the buyer to decide which puppy will be best for that family and others will let the buyers have the decision for themselves. I think the middle approach is the one that has worked well for us. It is dependent on being able to have a really good long visit with the puppies at around 5-6 weeks of age. The middle approach works when the buyer and breeder have been talking extensively once the paws are on the ground so they can watch the development of each puppy and make suggestions to guide the buyer. With Javelin's litter the breeder knew I wanted a performance obedience dog with good drive to work, but also a boy who would accept that he would not be "top dog" since Lily would not have taken well to a social rank challenger. She initially had told me to watch one particular boy in the videos she waas sending, but by the time we went for our pick visit she actually recommended against him because he had started standing up to and challenging his sisters.


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## Red poodle crazy (Mar 11, 2020)

Saphire said:


> We are looking for a Standard in the North East/Mid Atlantic Area. Prefer Red or Brown and would like to drive to pick up rather than ship.
> 
> This breeder was listed on Facebook
> 
> Catoctin Furnace Red Standard Poodles, anyone have any experience with them good or bad?


 They are a fantastic breeder.


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## Red poodle crazy (Mar 11, 2020)

They are a fantastic breeder. Their dogs are fully Health tested and extremely well socialized. They take a lot of time to find out what their puppy owners needs are and spend extensive time preparing their puppies from their future homes. Poodles can do all things. They specialize in pet homes and services dogs but have had several dogs that show in various events for confirmation and sport. My veterinarian recommended them to us, our vet owns 2 of there dogs and we are getting our second from them.


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## Red poodle crazy (Mar 11, 2020)

Saphire said:


> We are looking for a Standard in the North East/Mid Atlantic Area. Prefer Red or Brown and would like to drive to pick up rather than ship.
> 
> This breeder was listed on Facebook
> 
> Catoctin Furnace Red Standard Poodles, anyone have any experience with them good or bad?





Saphire said:


> We are looking for a Standard in the North East/Mid Atlantic Area. Prefer Red or Brown and would like to drive to pick up rather than ship.
> 
> This breeder was listed on Facebook
> 
> Catoctin Furnace Red Standard Poodles, anyone have any experience with them good or bad?


Catoctin Furnace Standard Poodles is amazing. You can't get a better more well rounded puppy. If you dont have one of their puppies your can't compare. They breed for temperament and confirmation. Their dogs are very well rounded and we couldn't ask for a better puppy. They have dogs that show but working with them they have homes that show and we were able to talk to anyone we wanted to as a reference. They care about all their puppies well after they leave. We spoke with a couple different families with different lifestyles. Couldn't be happier.


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## Red poodle crazy (Mar 11, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> I have the same concerns voiced by Mysticrealm, but additionally discovered through a Google search that Catoctin apparently studded or sold a male to another breeder who produces sheepadoodles (old english sheepdogxpoodle) which makes Catoctin a no for me since I would not support a breeder that contributes to the doodle craze.
> 
> 
> FarleysD as suggested by Mfmst would be a much better option.


Their contract has no doodling in it or there is a fine of up to $5,000. She was against doodling and we talked at length about it. I asked why doodles were so popular and she was open and honest but did not want her name associated with any doodling. I guess you can't believe what you hear if you dont know them yourself.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

A breeder that comes highly recommended here is a very safe choice as a good breeder and I would personally have no problem foregoing an initial visit if the breeder paired me with a pup. The recommendations of experienced people on here are not the same as the average pet owner's recommendation. People here have much more experience and often show their dogs in performance or sport, so they would only recommend top quality breeders. As far as traveling goes, I personally drove 12 hours to pick up my pup and we didn't have any issue with it. We just stayed overnight near the breeder, picked up the pup in the morning, and then drove home. I did not meet the pup before pickup. I trusted he was a good match, and have never looked back. I'd also be willing to pick with the breeder's recommendations, but would not prefer to pick myself from a pile of puppies. Breeders know their pups best.

Red poodle crazy, it is good to hear that you have had good experiences with Catoctin Furnace. Their dogs are lovely. I do not see anywhere that mentions OFA hip testing for their dogs. I went to the OFA database and looked up their dogs. Two of their dogs have results uploaded on OFA (link below) but they are only genetic tests and do not include hip testing. I believe this makes it highly probable that they limit things to genetic tests. But it's also technically possible that they have tested them and just haven't put the results on OFA. I could be missing something. But barring documentation of hip testing, for me this is a deal breaker as I would not purchase a large breed dog whose parents were not hip tested. The risk is just too great.



https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?quicksearch=catoctin%20furnace



In addition, you said


Red poodle crazy said:


> Their contract has no doodling in it or there is a fine of up to $5,000. She was against doodling and we talked at length about it. I asked why doodles were so popular and she was open and honest but did not want her name associated with any doodling. I guess you can't believe what you hear if you dont know them yourself.


Catoctin Furnace undoubtedly studded their male "Cotto" out to a Sheepadoodle breeder. They didn't stud him out to produce sheepadoodles, but to use with another poodle female. The resulting offspring ("TLC by the Lake's Valentine") was kept by the sheepadoodle breeder and may be used to sire doodles... but I don't have the time to look at every pairing they have. It's a very large kennel that produces all types of doodles. For evidence, check out TLC By the Lake Standard Poodles & Doodles. It's clearly listed in their Male Poodles section.

So they are willing to stud to doodle kennels, regardless of what they say. It's not the same as studding directly to another breed, but for some it may be a deal breaker. With breeders it's always a good safe practice to see documentation of things before relying purely on what a person says, just to be sure.

That said, the OFA hip testing is the thing I would be most concerned about. I would also prefer to see some evidence of titles on the dogs to prove sound temperament and structure. It's something I would ask about. Ultimately it's up to the buyer to decide what risks they are willing to take.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Raindrops said:


> The resulting offspring ("TLC by the Lake's Valentine") was kept by the sheepadoodle breeder and may be used to sire doodles...


I did a quick review of the upcoming litters and Valentine (dob June 2016) is showing up as a "future dad" only in the poodle upcoming litters link. 
I haven't checked in past litters, if they're listed.


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## Caribbeanpoodles (Mar 14, 2020)

I felt compelled to respond to your comment was obviously and uneducate one. We have had 2 pups from Catoctin and they are wonderful breeders. They breed for color and temperament NOT show dogs (Although believe a couple of their pups have gone to be Champions). Unless you have done business with them or are familiar with their pups you are simply posting nonsensical information. Shameful.


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## Caribbeanpoodles (Mar 14, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> I have the same concerns voiced by Mysticrealm, but additionally discovered through a Google search that Catoctin apparently studded or sold a male to another breeder who produces sheepadoodles (old english sheepdogxpoodle) which makes Catoctin a no for me since I would not support a breeder that contributes to the doodle craze.
> 
> 
> FarleysD as suggested by Mfmst would be a much better option.


Catoctin Furnace has been wonderful to us. Have done two business transactions with them and Jennifer is great! If indeed they have allowed for one of their pups go to a mix breeder, it was probably through another breeder since they disagree with mix of poodle breed. One thing to note: As a breeder, doodles are not recognized as a purebreed thus ultimately, not a real competition for Standard Poodle breeders, owners and enthusiasts. Its like buying a Corvette with a Volkswagen engine. LOOKS legit yet in the end NEVER the same.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hello and Welcome!
It's good to hear that your experience with this breeder has been happy also.
When Red poodle crazy joined to comment here, it was on a thread over 2 and a half years dormant.
The comments made by members reflect personal opinions based on criteria experienced and knowledgeable poodle owners here believe is important, as well as findable information (in this case - not listed) from the OFA database and internet searches which show a Catoctin dog was at least studded to a breeder of poodles and several doodle varieties.
Breeding for color and temperament are only part of the poodle equation. Maintaining the breed standard in conformation by breeders who invest in showing is another part of it.
The breeder themselves are also welcome to join and clarify anything they feel should be.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Caribbeanpoodles said:


> I felt compelled to respond to your comment was obviously and uneducate one. We have had 2 pups from Catoctin and they are wonderful breeders. They breed for color and temperament NOT show dogs (Although believe a couple of their pups have gone to be Champions). Unless you have done business with them or are familiar with their pups you are simply posting nonsensical information. Shameful.



Were you addressing me? I am glad you are happy with your experience with your breeder. I did research them when looking for my boy and I was not wildly impressed because of having apparently studded a male to a doodling breeder. So my comments were not so "uneducate(d)" as you suggest. Calling me shameful and nonsensical hardly seems a way to speak to people. How "shameful" of you.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Goodness, what is with this trend of multiple random new members joinng to defend years old threads on breeders without making any other posts? Sure, join, poodle forum. Welcome! More poodles and poodle lovers are great. But introduce yourself and your wonderful dogs (pictures are always fun!) before accusing people of being "shameful". Insults aren't helpful. 
Show us how wonderful your dogs are rather than arguing about old threads. I am not even seeing what is being argued? Someone is arguing that they have nicely socialized dogs, someone else is arguing they dont have OFA hip results posted. Both can be true, both should be considerations. If anyone has info to disprove that ie "here, on the website they have copies of the OFA hips", or, "no, but if you email they will show copies") that's also good information. Or - no, they dont show AKC, but here is their UKC championship, or agility titles, or whatever, that's also good info. Even ' I have two dogs, they are great!" Is good info, especially if you give their ages/health issues, describe their temperament, etc, and it can be said without insulting other people who may have concerns about THEIR requirements for good breeders which may be different/more stringent than your own. 

I have seen a few threads resurrect like this recently and always find this weird. If people have a dog and like the breeder, why are they googling the kennel name to find reviews?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For Want of Poodle, well said. The lack of the requirement to introduce does seem to have had some odd consequences doesn't it?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> For Want of Poodle, well said. The lack of the requirement to introduce does seem to have had some odd consequences doesn't it?


I didn't even realize it was an old thread when I replied. I'm still not used to this new way that things work. I just replied because I felt that documentation was needed. But yes, two new members joining just to do this... I suspect it is not coincidence. Regardless, hopefully they will join the forum and be part of the community. It would certainly be better if people posted in new members first.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I have seen a few threads resurrect like this recently and always find this weird. If people have a dog and like the breeder, why are they googling the kennel name to find reviews?


I generally just assume it's the breeder or a friend or family member.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I find nothing wrong with people giving their personal good experiences and saying how they have enjoyed their dogs. *But I also hope a good breeder who is possibly still learning (and watching these forums) might look at things constructively*. Like for example, if you're not listing OFA hip results but have done the test, maybe consider listing them. Or consider testing them. Because a person like me considers that a high priority. I think breeders can always learn and improve things. Buyers also need to prioritize their checklists and it's fine for people to have different priorities. I, for example, would be fine getting a dog that is a carrier for a genetic condition as long as it won't manifest because I don't want to breed. But other people might have different preferences. I'd also be fine getting a dog from parents that had only agility titles as long as I liked the parents' structure. But if somebody says "I wouldn't buy because I'd prefer a dog from conformation lines for reasons x, y, z..." that's also valid and good to know. I have a pup from a breeder that works well for me, but I'm sure the same breeder wouldn't check all the boxes for some buyers. Catoctin has really beautiful dogs. I wouldn't tell another person that they're wrong for going with one of their pups. But hopefully this forum gives some good ideas for conversations to have between buyers and breeders.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Part I - TLC by the Lake*

I looked into TLC's breeder's site since a main issue appears to be if Catoctin studs out one of her poodles for doodling. To determine this, let's review these two separate breeders. TLC and Catoctin.

TLC by the Lake breeds doodles.
Catoctin breeds poodles.
*Initially it appeared that TLC bought a male poodle puppy from Catoctin that was sired by Catoctin's Cotto and Blossom, but I'm not sure this is the case.*

They named him _TLC by the Lake's *Valentine*_. Here are links to his sire and his dam:



















Thus, TLC's Valentine is now grown and has been used as a stud for at least one litter of sheepadoodle puppies bred by TLC, who owns him.

*But I found a discrepancy about Valentine's daddy's name: *

On TLC, Valentine's sire is listed as "Catoctin Furnace" "Cotto", as you can see in the pic.
As Rose found on Post #14, AKC has no dog listed simply named Catoctin Furnace. Neither does OFA.
On OFA, Valentine's sire is listed as Family Affairs Cotto Bernardo. His dam is listed as TLC By the Lakes Blossom.
This is Family Affairs Cotto Bernardo aka Cotto's page on OFA, and he passed the reported tests including hips (excellent).
But I wondered, why would TLC be vague about Valentine's sire's name and use Catoctin rather than Family Affair? This is the site for Family Affair Standard Poodles. 

PF'ers had this discussion back in January. I'm embarrassed to say I initially thought Family Affair was a so-so breeder, not the worse, not the best, until I later read and wondered why they have so many disabled poodles and then saw some additional videos which were pretty sad.

None of this answers whether or not Catoctin knows that TLC is advertising Valentine as one of their puppies that grew up to become a TLC stud, or what, if any, connection there is between the two breeders.


*Part II*:



Red poodle crazy said:


> Their contract has no doodling in it or there is a fine of up to $5,000. She was against doodling and we talked at length about it. I asked why doodles were so popular and she was open and honest but did not want her name associated with any doodling...


I looked over Catoctin's Documents section. In the general Deposit & Application form for purchasing one of her pups, all are sold as pets to be neutered or spayed for $2K or unlimited registration for $3K.

Catoctin's price is not unusual for Maryland for a well-bred, completely health tested Standard Poodle, but it caught my eye on the application document that Catoctin says they will meet the buyer in a place that's not at their home.











This is usually not a good sign. Buyer's typically want to see the puppy's home environment and it's mother, and they want to be able to knock on the breeder's door if the breeder avoids their phone calls and emails if disaster strikes with that puppy.

Then I read the "Guardian Home To Own Dog" contract in the Documents section for that category of puppy buyers. I have an allergy to the majority of puppy contracts, and with this one, felt itchy to the point of going into anaphylactic shock just reading it.

The requirement to purchase Nu-Vet vitamins isn't something I'd personally want to do with any breeder (incidentally, Family Affair does this too on their site), but the clause of *"After the female dog has her 6 to 8 litters, we will end the agreement"* had me shaking my head.

Why?

This puts a lot of work and the cost of caring for their frequently pregnant bitch and the pups in all those litters. It's asking a lot of both the dog and the owner, who technically isn't even the owner.
In a good contract, legally, the number should be exact. Is it 6, or 8, and who decides?
There should be an end date to the age of dam in her last litter, which is usually at the low end of six years of age, and
No clause on what if the female comes in season only once a year. What then? Breed her until she's 9 years old? This isn't addressed.
And who forces their female to pump out eight litters? Good grief, the poor girl will spend the best years of her youth either being pregnant or breast feeding with only two month intervals between litters.
*While I'm talking about the short end of the stick*, say for example some poor clueless person without $2K to buy their dream poodle puppy thinks they're getting a good deal as a Guardian. They're oh-so-happy to get a "free" poodle puppy! They'd do better taking out a loan. Here's why:

Say the *average* number of pups in a litter is eight, yet each is owned and sold by Catoctin for a minimum of $2K per puppy. The breeder then profits $16,000 for one litter. Multiply that by eight litters and Catoctin has profited $128,000 from that one female while the clueless buyer who learned too late is stuck with cleaning up mountains of pee and poop from litter after litter and having their furniture chewed up _for years_.

In addition, the clause in Catoctin's Guardian contract states: "Foster person(s) are fully responsible for all necessary shots, worming and health certificates on the whole litter."

Oh yeah? They're getting $2K per pup and won't even foot the bill for that? Does the guardian get to keep even one puppy? I saw no evidence of this in their posted contract.

And what about a pregnancy sonogram and x-ray, and if the dam needs blood work and a C-section? An emergency C-section in Maryland runs $3 to $5K. Is the Guardian is stuck with those bills too? Who pays for tail docking? And what if the dam dies during labor? Does the Guardian pay for the burial or body disposal bill? Does he/she still owe Catoctin for the cost of the poodle or is it waived? Or are they given yet another female to continue their journey as a Guardian owner which they don't own, and what if they don't want to start over with another puppy after losing "their" dog? Doesn't say.

*Conclusions: *

1 - Worst contract for a guardian/foster "owner" that I have ever read, and I have reviewed a lot of dog contracts. My recommendation for anyone thinking about doing the Guardian Contract with Catoctin is _Run, Forrest, run!_

2 - In the Guardian contract, the female pup is expected to have 6 to 8 litters. I wouldn't wish that on a dog (excuse the pun). It strikes me as excessive and heartless. Rhetorical question: what breeder or owner who truly cared about a dog would do this to her?

3 - According to the contract, the buyer can't come to their home to pick up their puppy. This may not bother some people, but I'd like to see the environment and meet the mama dog, and I'd have no problem taking off my shoes at the door if they're concerned about distemper germs getting tracked in their home. And since they'd already have a copy of my ID and $350 deposit, they should feel safe that I'm not there to rob them. So why meet elsewhere?

If none of the above bothers you as a potential buyer, fine with me. We're all grown and can make our own decisions. The best I can say about both breeders is their poodles and sheepadoodles are pretty, and some are really pretty. By and large these do not appear to be show dogs, and I'd be surprised if TLC keeps their many dogs in their house. I don't know about Catoctin since I haven't the faintest idea how many poodles they own, only that you can't visit their premises.

For buyers considering either Catoctin or TLC* and simply want a pet*, just *please* insist on looking at the original paperwork for the DNA testing and hip rating on the parents, and read the OFA suggested guidelines here on breeding with the hip status in mind.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Vita, you are the BEST. Wow. I wish every potential poodle buyer had you as a guide.


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## StormBorn Standards (Jun 3, 2020)

Is there a private message area to speak with an admn?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

StormBorn Standards said:


> Is there a private message area to speak with an admn?


Yes! Just head to Vita's profile and click "Start conversation."









Vita







www.poodleforum.com


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## StormBorn Standards (Jun 3, 2020)

Thank you!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Vita, I applaud your careful sleuthing. Definitely a greeder to avoid. 

There are much better breeders to support and buy puppies from.


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