# Puppy Color vs Adult Color



## that_poodle_noodle (Jul 24, 2020)

Here’s Noodle as a puppy (8 weeks old)










and now (about 17 months old)










Her mum was a very similar colour to her now (maybe even a little lighter but still with apricot ears) and her dad was red.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

With a full white parent I would bet the puppies will all fade.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

This is our color story










+










=

Then









Now (1y4m)









I haven't noticed signs of fading, but who knows. Color was low on the priority list.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Normie's sire is red; his mom, apricot. He's listed as a red, but he's golden.


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## Pavie (May 4, 2021)

I think Pavie's color has faded over time. It's a bit hard to tell based on the lighting in the pictures (he can look orange, apricot, brown, red, golden, etc. depending on lighting). He has gotten a lot more guard hair as an adult, and many of his guard hairs are white, and it's one of the factors that make him look lighter. For reference, his mom = straight hair red goldendoodle, and dad = wool coat white goldendoodle. 

Baby Pavie @11 weeks old









Adult Pavie @23 months


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

LynnB739 said:


> One parent is white and the other is red, similar to the last poodle on this forums banner photo. I have read that the color can sometime fade. I would love to see photos of everyone's poodles as puppies and adults to understand how the color changes. Also, is there any way to know for which dogs the color will fade and for which it will not? Thanks in advance.


The genetics behind poodle coat colors isn't simple. Almost every poodle coat color is genetically "programmed" to fade. You also need to consider not only the two parents color but also other genes which may appear thru others in the pedigree, the family tree.

* Poodle Color Inheritance*_

There are a lot of opportunities in color mixing, but it requires a solid knowledge about the mechanisms of heredity. You can avoid color related risks by breeding only the same color poodles, but in the long run bigger gene pools will help reduce the problems of e.g. inheritable diseases. By using color mixing, we can maintain a healthy base of recessive colored poodles (white, apricot, brown, red). Until the year 2006 color mixing with poodles was subject to license in Finland.

Let’s start with the basic terminology:

*Genotype*: Describes the dog’s heredity.

*Dominant:* The ruling attribute in the phenotype. E.g. black color in a poodle.

*Recessive:* Yielding attribute, that appears when there is no dominant gene present. In other words, the recessive attribute shows, when the dog has two recessive elements. E.g. apricot color in a poodle.

*Genes:* Inheritable attributes that are located in the chromosomes. Dogs have 39 pairs that make 78 chromosomes. Half of these come from the male and the other half from the female, because gametes have only 39 chromosomes.

Inheritance could simply be described with the following example:
A black female poodle’s genotype is Bb (B = black, b = brown, black being the dominant and brown being the recessive gene)
If this poodle is paired with a black male poodle, could their puppy be a brown one? Well, it depends on the male’s genotype:
If the male is BB: possible puppy variations are BB or Bb, meaning only black puppies.
If the male is Bb: possible puppy variations are BB, Bb and bb, the last option being a brown puppy.
Recessive genes bring complications to breeding, because they can be hidden against the odds for multiple generations. Even if your black poodle has black parents and grandparents, you can’t be sure if the recessive gene will pop out in the brood eventually.
The color of the dog is determined by 11 gene pairs that are not connected to each other. Mixing colors is not as simple as in the previous example, because we need to add more variables.

Let’s make a bit more complicated example:
B (black pigment)
b (brown pigment)
E (color in the whole dog)
e (color only in the muzzle)

Now let’s assume that we are breeding two dogs:
Apricot BBee (Apricot poodle, that has black pigment only in its muzzle)

Brown bbEE (Poodle that has brown everywhere)
Now if the puppy would be BbEe, it will be a completely black poodle with the recessive attributes from its parents.

This means that we need to take into account a lot of different things in breeding, not just the color. Many breeders don’t want to try color mixing, because you can’t never really remove the risk of unwanted combinations completely (especially when you take into account the so called modifying genes!). But breeding the same recessive colored poodles with each other will eventually lead to the diminution of the gene pool, not to mention the loss of other wanted attributes (e.g. health issues with the eyes, muzzles or hips). Controlled color mixing could be the only way to get a healthier base.
One of the most interesting poodle colors is red, that was accepted as an independent color as late as 2007. The color is still a somewhat mystery, but it’s assumed to be originated from red cockers. It’s believed to be caused by a separate gene called the “Rufus” gene. Red is dominant to apricot, so two red poodles can have apricot puppies, but not the other way around.

There is a lot of complicated stuff behind color mixing, but it has become more popular than ever. Recessive colored poodles are becoming more common, so breeders are nowadays required to know a lot about inheritance mechanisms. Things are luckily becoming easier, as you can now purchase a DNA test for your poodle.

One of the companies that offer DNA testing is VetGen, which has developed a chart about poodle color mixing:
If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee.
In the picture below cream represents cream, white, apricot and red._

1-4 Black 5-7 Cream, White, Apricot, Red 8-9 Brown 









*Simplifying Coat color

*










It can be difficult to understand the genetics behind coat color in poodles . This visual chart simplifies the often daunting task.
Please not , this chart is based on homozygous ( non-carrier), reference is made to the basic colors , it does not take into account the pigmentation except for the crosses with the color brown. Also it does not specify the % of given possibilities

HOW TO USE THE TABLE

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced .










Here's a link to the site the above info is from

Genetics behind Coat Color - Nova's Standard Poodles (weebly.com)

Here's a link to a layman's read of the genetics of poodle coat colors:

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES (tripod.com)

One of my boys color change. His father was silver, his mother was cream. He has faded to cream. 

Gotcha Day almost 9w old









1 yr









2y









3y









4y









At 4y his face and ears still have some additional coloring


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

Pavie said:


> I think Pavie's color has faded over time. It's a bit hard to tell based on the lighting in the pictures (he can look orange, apricot, brown, red, golden, etc. depending on lighting). He has gotten a lot more guard hair as an adult, and many of his guard hairs are white, and it's one of the factors that make him look lighter. For reference, his mom = straight hair red goldendoodle, and dad = wool coat white goldendoodle.


He's really adorable!  If he faded, it's not too much.


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> The genetics behind poodle coat colors isn't simple. Almost every poodle coat color is genetically "programmed" to fade. You also need to consider not only the two parents color but also other genes which may appear thru others in the pedigree, the family tree.
> 
> * Poodle Color Inheritance*
> 
> ...


This is all so helpful and much more productive than my google search! Thank you! So, my little girl (assuming there's a girl in the litter) won't be white. I really want a red, but woudl be happy with an apricot or anything in that color family. This information is great,especially the visual one. Thanks! I can't wait to share photos of my poodle with you all.


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## Finn's mum (Mar 11, 2019)

This is my boy Finn at 10 weeks and then at 3 years old. His dad was red and his mum was apricot. He has faded over time but is still a beautiful colour.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

LynnB739 said:


> So, my little girl (assuming there's a girl in the litter) won't be white. I really want a red, but woudl be happy with an apricot or anything in that color family


It's looking like cream will be the most likely color based on the top chart (VetGen). I love my boy's creamy, sunshiny color. He even glows in some light .


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## Apricot mini momma (Dec 22, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> It's looking like cream will be the most likely color based on the top chart (VetGen). I love my boy's creamy, sunshiny color. He even glows in some light .
> View attachment 479497


He is glowing! Great pic. Adorable fluff.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

I love my puppy's colour. He was advertised as 'sable' but is a darkish orange. He is already a lot lighter at almost 5 months old ...


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

Tulsi said:


> I love my puppy's colour. He was advertised as 'sable' but is a darkish orange. He is already a lot lighter at almost 5 months old ...


He's adorable! I love the color also. 

It looks like mine is going to be either an apricot or cream. I saw photos of the puppies taken shortly after they were born. I really wanted a red and I have a deposit on a red puppy, but that puppy won't be born until February. I got this opportunity for a toy poodle that was born on Saturday. It's not an opportunity I would have sought out, but it's a person I know and I know the parents are well loved and cared for. My Gemma, who I lost a few weeks ago, was a mill mama rescue, so I could never get a pet store puppy ever. Since my little old man, Razz, is 16, I'm really leaning towards taking the toy poodle that will be available this fall. It will give me the opportunity to spend time training the puppy before Razz's health starts to decline. I've been so lucky with my Razz. He's 16 and still in pretty good health except arthritis.


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

So, thank you all for sharing your pictures. 

The puppy I wanted from the litter didn't make it. I am back at the drawing board. I still have the deposit on my puppy to be born approximately February 2022, so I may stay with that. It will be a red girl. I'd be flexible with a boy, because my terrier/chi mix is a boy and I absolutely adore him, but would love to be able to do bows and dresses. Since i plan to have the dog for a long time, I want the right dog. I really want a red or a brown, so it's better for me to find a really good, reputable breeder and just wait. My little old man (16) will enjoy the extra one-on-one time. 

It's kind of sad, but I know these things happen.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

Well done for waiting for the right dog from a decent breeder. I was too impulsive and as a result have found that my pup has the merle gene in his heritage ...


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

Tulsi said:


> Well done for waiting for the right dog from a decent breeder. I was too impulsive and as a result have found that my pup has the merle gene in his heritage ...


Hi Tulsi. What is the downside of the merle gene in the heritage? Is this an issue for breeding or does it have some health or appearance impact on the dog? I will google it also, but just curious if it is just something recessive in his genetics or if it has a real impact somehow. I wasn't aware of this as something to look out for.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It is a potentially very serious health issue and is not a naturally occurring gene in poodles.


This is explanatory.









The merle poodle by Barbara Hoopes


I found this on Facebook, where Barbara is a huge source of information about poodle genetics. *** Barbara Hoopes Everyone keeps asking me about Merle poodles, so I am summarizing literature research I did below. I am making this post public so it can be shared. I am a professor of Molecular...




www.poodleforum.com


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

LynnB739 said:


> So, thank you all for sharing your pictures.
> 
> The puppy I wanted from the litter didn't make it. I am back at the drawing board. I still have the deposit on my puppy to be born approximately February 2022, so I may stay with that. It will be a red girl. I'd be flexible with a boy, because my terrier/chi mix is a boy and I absolutely adore him, but would love to be able to do bows and dresses. Since i plan to have the dog for a long time, I want the right dog. I really want a red or a brown, so it's better for me to find a really good, reputable breeder and just wait. My little old man (16) will enjoy the extra one-on-one time.
> 
> It's kind of sad, but I know these things happen.


Sorry to hear about your prospect not surviving. I'm glad you are approaching this hunt so thoughtfully.


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## LynnB739 (Jun 28, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> It is a potentially very serious health issue and is not a naturally occurring gene in poodles.
> 
> 
> This is explanatory.
> ...


Thank you so much for this background. I read about it last night on Google, but this offers even more insight. How horrible to know that another breed was introduced somewhere in the pedigree. I am curious if you, or anyone you know, has done the Embark DNA and whether another breed showed up other than Poodle. I did the Embark DNA on my terrier mix and it was really enlightening. He is 50% rat terrier, which makes total sense, based on what I know of his background, but I was actually told he had NO terrier. I think Embark is very good and the health test can tell you what diseases he may be predisposed to. I'm going to do Embark on my poodle as soon as I bring her home to validate the health info represented to me and to be on the lookout for anything that could come up as the puppy ages.


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