# Decision Time - Bar-None youngster?



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I believe that’s where @DogtorDoctor got their pup. I was considering a Bar None pup but went with Donnchada because of the drive time. It really does sound like what youve been looking for in a dog.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Sounds like a great match. An adolescent is a lot of work but should be easier than a young puppy.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

@Skylar got Babykins at roughly the same age, and look what a wonderful team they are!

Phenomenal breeder, very young Spoo with known temperament, (okay, your color), this reads like a win to me. We have some Bar-None Poodles in the forum, too. Love how you followed all the leads.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Serendipity strikes again! 

I'm sure you'll be able to meet first before making a final decision? He sure sounds like a great fit for you and your crew. 

If you're up to the management aspect, and it doesn't sound like he's going to need that much, it'd be hard to resist moving ahead. 

Unless you feel the timing isn't great, is it likely that you'll find a better fit by waiting?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Streetcar said:


> @Skylar got Babykins at roughly the same age, and look what a wonderful team they are!
> 
> Phenomenal breeder, very young Spoo with known temperament, (okay, your color), this reads like a win to me. We have some Bar-None Poodles in the forum, too. Love how you followed all the leads.


Yes, I got my Babykins at this age and I have no regrets. The key is well socialized …. some dogs are resilient and if they miss proper socialization as a young puppy they can adapt while other dogs can’t. Babykins was a puppy held back for conformation by the breeder and he put in a lot of work socializing and training her for conformation and it shows. What he didn’t do was any other training, the kind of obedience training that most people go through with a puppy. She didn’t know commands like sit or down. However she was an eager learner and quickly earned her AKC CGC and passed her TDI therapy dog test. I never noticed any “teenage” behavior from her. 

At that age they are fully toilet trained and you know their personality. I would go for it.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Skylar said:


> Yes, I got my Babykins at this age and I have no regrets. The key is well socialized …. some dogs are resilient and if they miss proper socialization as a young puppy they can adapt while other dogs can’t. Babykins was a puppy held back for conformation by the breeder and he put in a lot of work socializing and training her for conformation and it shows. What he didn’t do was any other training, the kind of obedience training that most people go through with a puppy. She didn’t know commands like sit or down. However she was an eager learner and quickly earned her AKC CGC and passed her TDI therapy dog test. I never noticed any “teenage” behavior from her.
> 
> At that age they are fully toilet trained and you know their personality. I would go for it.


Yes, this is exactly his situation - he's well traveled and socialized already, trained for conformation, but no true obedience work. I have had this with all my SFTs. He's got house privileges every day, isn't allowed on furniture, goes into his kennel to eat and sleep. 

Will keep you all posted! I know there's always another dog, so it's not this or nothing. But...this one seems to tick a lot of boxes and both handlers I talked to said he's a sweetheart. I always cave on something in every major decision I make...age may be it this time. 

Fingers and toes and arms and legs crossed!!!! I've gone from cautious in this process up to now to EXCITED. I can't let myself post a photo until it's a done deal though. Trying to be reasonable and logical.


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## DogtorDoctor (Mar 20, 2020)

I got a Bar-None pup this year! When's this one's birthday? My Jango is late March and my mother's pup, Zeus, is early April.

Both our puppies stand perfectly for the groomer. Jango came practically crate trained at a young age, and with you potentially getting an adolescent I'm sure you'll have some good behavior already on board. Both dogs are also very dark black, with just a few white guard hairs (that I pluck out lol). 

Can't wait to hear an update.


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

Oh, just send us the photo of the new love of your life already!


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

DogtorDoctor said:


> I got a Bar-None pup this year! When's this one's birthday? My Jango is late March and my mother's pup, Zeus, is early April.


Our pups have the same grandmother! Her name is Bar-None Fabulosity. My pup's birthday is March 23, when is yours?


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Sroodle8 said:


> Oh, just send us the photo of the new love of your life already!


This dog is with Nancy Wilson's handler who co-owns the dam and co-breeds with Nancy, he's out of Ch. Bar-None Avatar Believe in Something and GCH Bar-None Kalan Resurrection. I didn't ask actual birthdate yet - was so focused on his temperament, energy, and socialization. 

I'm 99.99% yes. The distance is a challenge, but we're looking at working out a possible meet at a show midway.

We'll be discussing the formalities later this week. I'm dying to start my Chewy/Amazon Prime cart!!!! Gotta be calm. He's such a handsome feller...eep


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Congratulations! You couldn’t find a better, more accomplished breeder than Nancy Wilson. It’s always going to be a challenge to bring a younger poodle into a household of seniors. I hope they find detente. You will be getting a grand poodle who will undoubtedly be able to read the room.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yay - he sounds such a good fit for you! When I brought Freddy (10 week papillon) into my house of seniors (Sophy - 13 year old papillon, Poppy - 12 year old toy poodle with liver failure, Tilly - 18 year old cat) I feared he would be too much for them, but with the aid of a pen it was actually very easy to manage. I set the pen up close to where I sit and the dogs snooze, so he was not isolated, and was very familiar to him from his time with his breeder. Now he understands the house rules better I am using a little pop up pen which he can unzip himself, but he will still fly into it for a Freddy Beddy! treat and settle down there with a good chew. It is lovely to have a youngster in the house again and Sophy in particular has been a huge help with civilising him - I am sure your oldies will accept your new arrival equally well with careful management.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

fjm said:


> Yay - he sounds such a good fit for you! When I brought Freddy (10 week papillon) into my house of seniors (Sophy - 13 year old papillon, Poppy - 12 year old toy poodle with liver failure, Tilly - 18 year old cat) I feared he would be too much for them, but with the aid of a pen it was actually very easy to manage. I set the pen up close to where I sit and the dogs snooze, so he was not isolated, and was very familiar to him from his time with his breeder. Now he understands the house rules better I am using a little pop up pen which he can unzip himself, but he will still fly into it for a Freddy Beddy! treat and settle down there with a good chew. It is lovely to have a youngster in the house again and Sophy in particular has been a huge help with civilising him - I am sure your oldies will accept your new arrival equally well with careful management.


Thank you for sharing this. 

I pondered this decision last night, feeling a rush of guilt that I'm changing Badger's last days, which right now are admittedly sleep, very short trots, eat, and more sleep. I listed out the pros and cons to see what I was feeling and if it was a deal breaker or something I can manage. I realized that, like you say, if the puppy continues to have a life where he has boundaries (x-pen, kennel, etc), it's going to cue to Badger that I am keeping him safe - he is a tremendously wise old dog. And I actually think that will help Izzie acclimate as well. She's all gusto and then has nervous-nelly moments until she knows a dog well. This lets her know him a bit more slowly. I think lots of long walks with the puppy will help her bond too. Initially, the puppy's life will continue to be much like his current situation - structured, boundaries, and not free range.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

I introduced Rusty to my 2 older dogs (collie rip and labrador). Collie was surprisingly tolerant considering that she was unwell (we only found out just how unwell she was once we already had Rusty).

Labrador was amazing with him and still is. He loves to cuddle up to her.

I look forward to reading about your journey with your new dog.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I've got 3 Standards, one at 14 is "geriatric" LOL and I also have a 9-year-old and a 1-year-old. I brought the 1-year-old home at 8 weeks because I flew her home in cabin and was concerned if I waited until 9 or 10 weeks when my breeder typically lets them go I could have potential issues with her fitting under the seat in the plane. The breeder was fine with letting her go at 8 weeks because I am an experienced dog person able to deal with any potential issues during the first fear period and also because there were other dogs at home to continue the socialization period during those extra weeks when they would have been with littermates. 3 is a lot of work, admittedly, but you will get into a routine once you have the new dog home, and once you do that it makes things a lot easier. It has been great for my middle dog and the puppy because they play like crazy, something my middle dog missed once my old lady didn't want to play as hard anymore. I do have to run interference for the old lady when the puppy gets too rough with her, but they do like each other very much. It's all worked out very well.


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## Kimotee (Feb 25, 2021)

TerraFirma said:


> First of all, thanks to everyone who has provided input as I've been on this soul-search, dog finding expedition.
> 
> After hitting a number of dead ends, both with rescues and breeders, and thinking I will have a two year wait on my hands, I have a serious lead (and the color I want - _I know, so shallow_).
> 
> ...


We picked up our girl at 13 months of age after she had been sold once, returned to her breeder at 7 months old, then fostered with another breeder for a couple of months because of her original breeder's illness, and then returned to the breeder to only have an unplanned pregnancy and a litter of 10 (registered), which was again followed by the declining health of her breeder resulting in being left alone in a kennel (very nice kennel). It was a tough haul for a while - she was a wild child, but fortunately with a very sweet disposition when not chasing rabbits, squirrels, errant plastic bags, passing cars, etc. We trained and we trained and got her through her CGC on the first attempt, and then stayed with a training club for five years and an agility club for another two years. She became a go anywhere do anything companion. I guess the point is that a healthy, happy pup will do just fine as long as the human companion is willing and able to provide the support that is needed as you seem to be. Go for it - I'm sure you will have a fine journey ahead


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Looks like I will have my first Spoo "Jameson" Sunday the 13th!!! She asked if I wanted him in full hair or not, and I said _ALL THE HAIR _right now until I'm over it. 

Getting my Chewy and Amazon Prime orders in and AM SO EXCITED!!!!!!!!!!!! 

More photos will be posted after Mr. Jamie James Jameson arrives - omg, I am _that _owner - but as a teaser: 

Here he was as a wee little man  Such poise


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Oooooh! Sooo Exciting! That was me a year ago! Can't wait until next Sunday! How long a drive is it? Get ready for the longest week.


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## X skully X (Nov 21, 2021)

Congratulations 🎊🎉🍾🎈 
Really excited for you. 💜


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

What a gorgeous black, which Nancy is known for, and their costs can be voluminous. I posted a picture of Buck in a full blow out, pro puppy groom and a member here (CB!) agreed with DH that he looked fat. All coat. He came to us with several grooms, of course, I am convinced that black poodles have the best coats. Congratulations on your puppy!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Congratulations. Looking forward to more pictures when he comes home. Wow he looks good


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Eeeee! So excited for you!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Congratulations - looking forward to following the small trials and tribulations and huge joy he brings!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hope you get some sleep tonight !


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

Sadly, this has not turned out well these last 24hrs. After seeing very odd gait/running into things/imbalance, I rushed him to the vet this morning. He was diagnosed with a neurological disorder that will require a neuro specialist to pinpoint what exactly is causing issues in the cerebellum. She said it would likely be untreatable and she suspects it's congenital and is worsening. He is in no pain. Even the vet commented on what a tenderhearted little boy he is.

I'm gutted on many levels and cannot understand how or why this dog was placed without disclosure and to a home that explicitly wanted more than a house pet. I'm utterly baffled. 

I want to be clear that this dog was a Kalan Bar-None product, not solely Bar-None, and he was not living with Nancy. Nancy's own puppies might not go out the door like this. I understand issues happen outside of our control, I just think the lesson here is...even with extensive research, trust your gut and walk away even. I had a terrible pit in my gut the minute he came out of the crate yesterday. 

In all this, I'm shocked that my two Terriers have been so respectful of this little boy. It gives me hope that I will find the right dog in time. I just wish I never had to feel this right now. 

Thank you to everyone for offering so much advise and wisdom. I'm not giving up on a future poodle, but I'm definitely waiting a long while now.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so sorry - a very sad end to what seemed such a promising story.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m shocked that they would sell you this puppy without any disclosure of something so serious.

My heart goes out to you and this unfortunate puppy. So sad and I’m so sorry you have to deal with this.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is terrible for all involved. I'm so sorry. I hope the breeder is stepping up here.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I am so sorry, and know we all had high hopes for this puppy. I hope he can be placed in the right home. Shocking the problem was not disclosed in advance.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

So sorry. Glad to know the pup is not in pain. Hopefully the breeder will do the right thing.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

If you have a Bar None contract the puppy can be returned.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

This is so sad and unexpected. I can’t believe anyone in their right mind would not disclose this type of information. I suppose you are returning him to the breeder ?


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

He is with another handler tonight who will arrange for him to be transported back down to Texas. I have full contract and requested refund, not another dog. I can't stomach another dog after this. I will need time, and I'm generally apprehensive.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

I join the others in being so sorry that this has happened to you. No one deserves to have that kind of heartbreak watching their new puppy walk out of his crate. It's supposed to be one of the best moments of your life, not one of the worst.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Maybe he had a stroke-like event and was fine just beforehand. Such a sad outcome. 🙏


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Maybe he had a stroke-like event and was fine just beforehand. Such a sad outcome. 🙏


The vet was quite sure that it was congenital and gradually has worsened. She said MRI would find the locus of issue in the cerebellum but would not affect treatment as there is no treatment.

During the two hours or so on the phone when we discussed the dog, he was described to me as "moderate, outgoing, goofy, clumsy, gentle" and "all angles" and that his awkwardness was due to growth plate issues (which my vet said is inaccurate and that in no way were his issues typical big puppy awkwardness - she raises Great Danes). I was not provided video of him when I requested, which seemed odd to me. I was told that she doesn't take many photos or videos of dogs she's not keeping. I was also told that under no circumstances was he to be shown, that he had traveled to shows but never been shown in the puppy class. This was another red flag to me that I didn't heed. Why hold back a puppy and not show him in puppy class or fun matches at least? I suspect it was his movement and also that his back would roach up as he tried to control his limbs. And he could not run a straight line. She watched me feel his back and try to run w/him. When I asked about his clumsiness, I was told that he hadn't had his cavatelli training yet, and he'd become more coordinated from 9-12 months old. So, obviously, there was some awareness that he was lacking typical coordination. This was not sudden onset. Though, travel could have worsened it, perhaps. But then, it had to have been pronounced enough to not get the dog out in shows.

Again, I am only sharing this to help others discern in the future. I do not doubt that most of the dogs that come from any Kalan Bar-None dogs are healthy, happy, and free of these issues. This may be an anomaly that was not addressed appropriately.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m glad you were able to get him in to see the vet so quickly.

Did they use the term “cerebellar ataxia”? If so, there could be a number of causes:

Degenerative changes in the cerebellum
Structural abnormalities (e.g., underdevelopment or malformation of the cerebellum or the surrounding skull)
Brain tumor
Infection or inflammation in the brain
Metronidazole (an antibiotic) toxicity
Too low or too high red blood cell count
Low levels of potassium, calcium, or glucose (blood sugar)
Heart/circulation and/or respiratory diseases









Ataxia in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


The word ataxia means incoordination within the nervous system. There are several different forms of ataxia, depending upon where in the nervous system the abnormality occurs. The most common sign of ataxia, regardless of the cause, is an abnormal gait in which the dog is very unsteady on his...




vcahospitals.com





What was the breeder’s response to this news?

(Edit: Realized I was bombarding you with questions. I’m sorry. This is all just so sad.)


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

You’ve been on my mind. Love on Badger and Izzie, and this will fade to a bad memory. I’m hoping your heart heals quickly so you can reach your goals before too long.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m glad you were able to get him in to see the vet so quickly.
> 
> Did they use the term “cerebellar ataxia”? If so, there could be a number of causes:
> 
> ...


She did not use that term. We didn't do a blood panel / enzyme check to find any other underlying issues - I was so emotional, I couldn't process much, but I do believe there may be other factors at play.


PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m glad you were able to get him in to see the vet so quickly.
> 
> Did they use the term “cerebellar ataxia”? If so, there could be a number of causes:
> 
> ...


It is terribly sad. 

I have sent a full summary to Shawn and Nancy with the exam report, including the vet's contact info and relayed the recommendation for a neuro specialist and full gamut of testing to determine exact locus of lesion/cause, etc. The vet specified the symptoms (dysmetria, hypermetria, delayed CP, head tremor, etc) vs just cerebellar ataxia. His cranial nerves, menace and PLR were normal. 

I have asked the breeders for an update on the puppy once they have one.


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