# Breeder (and breed) evaluation when selecting a puppy



## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Reposted from another thread:

Quick question - what if a breeder is not keen on standing behind their poodles long term? I mean, I sort of understand that as no matter how well bred a dog may be, it is a living creature subject to disease. There are no guarantees in life but it a red flag if the breeder shows limited interest in taking their dog back should there be a problem?

If a breeder gives a one year health guarantee and has done all of the testing on the parents is that sufficient? What else should I look for? What are the main red flags when evaluating a poodle puppy (specifically a toy)?


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## Pumpkin Poodle (Oct 8, 2021)

Yes, I’m interested too as I’m looking for a toy poodle right now as well. What is within reason? Not that I ever expect to or hope to return my future dog, but what’s reasonable to expect of the breeder on this and what’s a red flag?


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

When I purchased my last poodle (17 years ago!) the breeder had in her contract a clause that if for any reason I could not keep my dog it was to be returned to her (and not put in a shelter or pound or resold, etc.) That clause made me feel really good about the dog and the breeder. 

I am speaking with breeders from PCA referrals and so far none of the breeders have mentioned this. So maybe this is not a typical thing anymore.... 

The more I dig into this process I realize I have my standards too.... for example, I am not going to give a non-refundable deposit to get on a wait list for for a dog that hasn't even been born yet... I'm not going to pick out a dog online and then have someone meet me at the door and hand it to me (or ship it to me.)- not comfortable with that. I'm not going to let anyone else pick out a dog for me either... Will I ask for a recommendation? Absolutely, and especially if I was torn between two pups but no way am I going to let a stranger pick out a dog for me - a dog I will be sharing my home and life with for hopefully 10-15 or more years. That doesn't make sense to me. (These are all conversations I have recently had as I called various breeders.) 

This is not to call into question these breeders but for me, I don't feel comfortable getting a dog that way.... 

I have a feeling, as I go through the process, that a conscientious breeder and a conscientious buyer will both have their way of doing things and that matching a breeder to a buyer is unique to the breeder and the buyer. The right breeder for one person may not be the right one for another.... we all need to feel comfortable in the transaction. 

My goal is to find a happy, healthy, well bred poodle and the best way to do this is by finding the right breeder.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

When I think of a breeder who stands by their puppies for the duration of their life, I think of a breeder who will take that dog back at any point in their life. For example, if your life circumstances change. The breeder is committing to ensuring that puppy has a home forever and doesn’t end up in a shelter, rescue, or a bad living situation.

A breeder who doesn’t stipulate this in their contract is not a breeder I would work with.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oops! Posted that at the same time as you, @Genny.  I think we’re on the same page when it comes to breeders standing by their poodles. But this isn’t necessarily going to come up in an initial discussion unless you ask. It will be in their paperwork.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> When I think of a breeder who stands by their puppies for the duration of their life, I think of a breeder who will take that dog back at any point in their life. For example, if your life circumstances change. The breeder is committing to ensuring that puppy has a home forever and doesn’t end up in a shelter, rescue, or a bad living situation.
> 
> A breeder who doesn’t stipulate this in their contract is not a breeder I would work with.


I'm glad this is still a thing.... I will look for that in any contract I sign.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A couple of thoughts on your other points (keeping in mind these are just my personal feelings based on my experience here and my experience with Peggy and her breeder):

I would have no problem with a breeder matching me to a puppy, especially if they did formal temperament testing. This tells me they’re looking out not only for the puppy’s best interest—ensuring he or she is matched to a suitable home—they’re also looking out for _me_, ensuring I don’t just fall for the most outgoing puppy, which is very common. The most outgoing puppy isn’t going to be the best fit for every lifestyle.

We say that Peggy “chose” us. But.....did she really? Or would she have climbed all over whoever showed up at that moment? I love my girl with all my heart, and I know she loves us, too, but I suspect it’s the latter. Heck, she does the same thing at the vet with the veterinary assistants! Lol.

As far as home visits go, with covid I understand they have become much trickier. Luckily, the breeders I personally have my eye on are so well-respected, I would have zero issue foregoing this step, much as I enjoyed meeting puppy Peggy on her home turf. If I had any concerns about how the puppies and parents were being raised, I probably wouldn’t be investing much time in that breeder anyway. These aren’t breeders with cutesy puppy pics and a PayPal/“Order now!” button on their websites.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

A good breeder will, to some extent, have to pick your puppy for you. You should explain what you are looking for (M/F, color, temperament, what you plan to do with it, etc) and the breeder will then try to match up the available puppies with the requests of all the buyers. Of course matching everybody's requests is not always possible (not enough males, or whites, for example). They usually wait until after week 7 when the puppies temperaments are evaluated via Volhard testing. My breeder gave me a choice of 3 after the Volhard testing was done, so I asked to come see them to help me decide. By the time I got there the next day my choice was down to 2. I asked which one of them she would have picked for me, and since they were both perfect (in my eyes), I went with that one...Elroy!


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> A good breeder will, to some extent, have to pick your puppy for you. You should explain what you are looking for (M/F, color, temperament, what you plan to do with it, etc) and the breeder will then try to match up the available puppies with the requests of all the buyers. Of course matching everybody's requests is not always possible (not enough males, or whites, for example). They usually wait until after week 7 when the puppies temperaments are evaluated via Volhard testing. My breeder gave me a choice of 3 after the Volhard testing was done, so I asked to come see them to help me decide. By the time I got there the next day my choice was down to 2. I asked which one of them she would have picked for me, and since they were both perfect (in my eyes), I went with that one...Elroy!


What a beautiful dog!


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## Pumpkin Poodle (Oct 8, 2021)

Genny said:


> When I purchased my last poodle (17 years ago!) the breeder had in her contract a clause that if for any reason I could not keep my dog it was to be returned to her (and not put in a shelter or pound or resold, etc.) That clause made me feel really good about the dog and the breeder.
> 
> I am speaking with breeders from PCA referrals and so far none of the breeders have mentioned this. So maybe this is not a typical thing anymore....
> 
> ...


Agreed. I want the right poodle from the right breeder. The poodle is sharing my home, and I’m investing a lot more than money in him/her. I’m going to do my best for any dog in my home, and I want a breeder who feels similar. To me, it’s a kind of like a partnership to some degree.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

In the past year, I’ve had 3 different good breeders I’ve gotten a dog from or are on their list for a puppy. They are all very different! Starla’s breeder had no contract (at least I never saw one), but runs the local poodle rescue, and I’m pretty sure she would track someone down if one of her dogs ended up abandoned. Phoebe’s breeder has a one page contact (really half a page is the legalities, the other half is my info) that does say she has right of first refusal and has to approve the new owner if you want to give the dog to someone else. The third breeder, not a poodle, I’m sure has a long contract, though I haven’t seen it yet. They actually have a more thorough vetting process than either of the poodle breeders I’ve worked with. I was up to the phone interview for final approval when I paused with them. 
Both poodle breeders allowed me to pick my own puppy. Phoebe’s did ask questions about our home, and I feel if she thought the other girl would have been a better fit then she would have said so. The non-poodle breeder does pick your puppy for you which makes me a bit nervous, I’m not going to lie! But I also know that if it’s not the right one I do have the resolve to say so and wait for future puppy.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I've written about some of this in your other post. 


Even with Covid restrictions many breeders are still finding ways for the potential new families to meet in person or at least view the puppies, the dams (maybe sire if on site), view the living environment, and there should be enough communication between you and the breeder for them to understand what you're looking for in a puppy and select on your behalf since they're with those pups from birth. 

I do understand feeling that it is a leap of faith, but it really is based on an open exchange of information. 

Some breeders themselves speak here:

On choosing a puppy:

Here's an explanation from a breeder who's been thru both sides of this:
from https://rufflyspeaking.net/ 

"5. PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT TO CHOOSE YOUR PUPPY. This one drives puppy buyers CRAZY. I know this, trust me. I have a lot of sympathy because I’ve been there. But the fact is that when you come into my house and look at the eight-week-old puppies and one comes up and tugs on your pant leg and you look at me, enraptured, and say “THIS IS IT! He chose ME,” I’ve been looking at people coming into the house all week, and every single time this same puppy has come up and tugged at them and every single one of them have said to me “THIS IS IT!”

What you are seeing is not reality. You are seeing the most outgoing puppy, or you’ve fallen in love with the one that has the most white, or the one that has a different look from the rest of the litter (when I had one blue girl puppy in a litter of black boys, every human that came in the house wanted her; when I had one black girl puppy in a litter of blue boys everyone kept talking about how much they loved HER), or the one that’s been (accidentally) featured the most in the pictures I’ve posted. Or, sometimes, you have a very good instinctive eye and you’re picking the puppy that’s the best put together of the litter. And that puppy, of course, is mine, and you’re going to have to pry him out of my cold dead hands.

My responsibility is not to make you happy. And that, dear friends, is why I am posting this now, and not when I have a bunch of actual puppy buyers around. But it’s the truth.

My responsibility is to the BREED first. That’s why my first priority in placing puppies is the show owners, because they are the ones that will (if all goes well) use this dog to keep the breed going. It’s not that I like them better than I like you; it’s that I have to be extremely careful who I place with them so that they can make breeding decisions with the very best genetic material I can hand them.

My second responsibility is to the PUPPY. I will place each puppy where I feel that it has the best chance of success and the optimal environment to thrive.

So while I do care about you, and I will try to take your preferences into account, do not expect to walk into my living room and put your hand in the box and pick whatever puppy you want. And do not expect to be given priority pick because you contacted me first; conversely, do not expect that because you came along late you somehow won’t get a good puppy. Sometimes the person who calls me when the puppies are seven and a half weeks old ends up with what I’d consider the “pick” for various reasons (sometimes because somebody called me up and said they’d gotten a puppy from someone else; see rule 4 above).

I am going to try to do my absolute best to match puppies to owners as objectively as I can, not according to who called first.

When I was waiting for Clue, I think I initially called Betty Ann six months before she was born. I waited through two other litters, where Betty Ann thought she might have something for me but then in the end told me no. Then I waited until 8 weeks when she thought this one might really be the one, and then another two weeks until she made her final picks and sent me a puppy. I was about ready to vomit with the tension. I UNDERSTAND. But the rewards of waiting and being matched with the right puppy are greater than any frustration with having to sit with an empty couch for a few more months.

6) ONCE YOU GET YOUR PUPPY, THERE WILL ONLY BE THAT PUPPY IN THE WHOLE WORLD. If you’ve been sitting around with your fingers crossed saying “Please, Molly, please, Molly, I only love Molly,” and I say “I really think Moe is the one for you,” you’re probably going to feel disappointed. But take Moe and go sit on the couch, and put your finger in her mouth, and realize that she has a really cool white toe on one foot but none of the other feet have white toes, and let her try to find a treat in your pocket, and I guarantee you by the time you’re five minutes out of my driveway Moe will be YOUR puppy. And a year later you may remember that you thought Molly was so pretty, but Moe… well, Moe could practically run the Pentagon she’s so smart, and her face turned out MUCH more beautiful than Molly’s did. And so on.

And on waitlists and deposits:

There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground. 

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground. 

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.

Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sale. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day. We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:


Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold. 
Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable. 
Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy. 
Payment can be made by: 

Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank. 

Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information." 
"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from __, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our ____)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to ____
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting ___ and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to __
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Contract/Health Guarantee or Warranty Examples

FWIW, I've seen a lot of well known breeders who just don't seem to do the full minimum tests. I can only speculate that they're combining the knowledge of the lines they're using, sort of old school, with the testing of things they think might be unknowns in the line.
I'd feel so much better if I could see the minimum for CHIC done on every breeding dog, but that's not what I see as the reality.
Definitely not saying this to affect any decisions but I've said this to another member. If you like the breeder, feel good about them, feel good about as much as you reasonably can, then for the things not done, you just have to decide where you draw the line for risk. I think the guarantee will go a long way to helping there.

This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

• Genetic LIFETIME Guarentee: We guarentee for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not Guarentee for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies and select seizure disorders. We make every attempt to breed a healthy puppy. Health issues that arise other than Hips, Elbows, CERF/Eyes, Cardiac are CASE by CASE between parties and are not always covered in our health guarentee.

• Our pups leave with a WELL PUPPY exam by our breeder Veterinarian, Dr ____. We also use __Clinic in when Dr is out of the office . The Health exams are in Written format and provided with each pup file.
• We STRONGLY RECOMMEND all puppy families insure their new Addition with PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

• We take back our Standard Poodles as a lifetime commitment, NO CASH PAYMENTS with be REFUNDED.

• Purchase of a puppy is a LIFETIME Commitment and we recommend doing your Research and understand this is a lifetime commitment.

We provide lifetime breeder support and remain available to offer any information and updates you may need on care and treatment for all the standard poodles we place.

Should you have any questions regarding our information disclosed on this page, please feel free to contact us via phone ____ ."


Or this one (the whole contract/guarantee):


"This contract is between ___, hereinafter referred to as SELLER and _
, hereinafter referred to as BUYER(s).

Address of Buyer:
Phone: E-Mail:
Seller agrees to sell Buyer a puppy born
AKC#
Sire: AKC#
Dam: AKC#
For the sum of:
Deposit Amount:
Total Amount Due:

1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns. The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel name as a prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog.
The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.


7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family.

The preceding paragraphs contain conditions established to ensure the well being of the dog, but also to uphold and maintain the reputation of quality that ___ has established over many years. The Buyer’s agreements will continue for the dog’s life and the Seller will have the right to enforce the agreements.

Seller:
Signature:
Date:
Buyer:
Signature
Date:



but not this This is only the health portion, not including their payment and shipping requirements):

SELLER'S HEALTH GUARANTEE

All Poodles bred and sold are up-to-date in their medical treatments. Dogs are checked prior to shipping and are guaranteed to be sound and in good health.
PUPPIES whose age at a date of sale precludes completion of the scheduled series of inoculations, it is necessary for the purchaser to complete the scheduled series of inoculations ON TIME, in order to protect the puppy and for this health guarantee to remain valid.
A timetable for this series of inoculations will be supplied on the medical history of the puppy. In addition, until this series of inoculations has been complete (about 16 weeks of age) the puppy should not be exposed to premises known to be suspected of being contaminated or unhealthy animals.

___ certifies that at the time of sale and to the best of our knowledge, the puppy will be free of any congenital birth defects. Our puppies are guaranteed against parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale.
*Buyer has researched and is knowledgeable of the non life threatening problems that a dog may have, and agrees that these are not covered under this health guarantee.*
The buyer is advised to have this puppy examined by a competent veterinarian of the buyers' choice within 3 business days to assure them that they have purchased a healthy puppy. This will be done at the purchaser's expense. Under no circumstances will __ be responsible for any veterinarian bills acquired by the purchaser for this puppy.
*Minor, breed related, treatable or correctable conditions (such as Patellar Luxation, *Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease, Cryptorchidism,* PRA-Prcd, etc), or any condition that may go away or is considered to be a condition which a puppy will likely outgrow, are not covered.*
We give a very educated guess on mature size of pup but we do not guarantee size.

We DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
We will give a replacement puppy for life threatening genetic diseases.
If a health issue arises within the first TWENTY FOUR MONTHS of age which your vet believes could possibly be a life threatening genetic disease the following are the options:

(1) A written explanation from a licensed veterinarian and backed up with lab work or x-rays as to the nature of the problem.

(2) A second opinion from a Vet whom we have approved in advance to examine the puppy for signs of abuse or for life threatening congenital defect.

(3) Return the puppy and AKC papers to us at buyer’s expense. If you are unwilling to release the puppy and their papers into our possession, we will not be responsible for any medical expenses incurred (only medical expenses guaranteed are for parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale) nor will we be a part of the recovery process.

(4) Proof that the puppy was examined by a certified veterinarian no later than 3 working days after receiving the puppy.

If the Vet's prognosis is that the puppy has a life threatening genetic disease and all of the above criteria are met, we will replace a puppy of equal value when one becomes available. No problems other than life threatening congenital defects are covered in this agreement.

We offer this guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age. If at any time you transfer ownership of the puppy, this agreement is void immediately.

We are not responsible for the health of this Puppy after the 72 hours period. This is due to the possibility that the dog may become infected by a communicable disease after its delivery to the new owner.

BUYER'S RESPONSIBILITY:


Have the puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of delivery. If a problem does arise, the Breeder is to be notified immediately following the examination of the puppy. The problem must also be verified by the Breeder's own veterinarian.
Provide the puppy with routine preventive care, such as, but not limited to the following:


Annual physical examinations by a licensed veterinarian.
Follow veterinarian guidelines for vaccinations and de-worming.


All deposits are non-refundable.


***



Their website mentions OFA testing on many of their dogs, with patella's and hips frequently noted and yet their Health Guarantee says this
"Guarantee does not cover what is to be considered normal of the breed purchased, such as but not limited to; Cherry eye, entropion, loose knees/hips, skin allergies, hip dysplasia, elongated soft palates, stenotic nares (collapsed nostrils)."

That just seems curious to me. I looked at the OFA site to see if *_* came up as a kennel name and I got no results with that. You'll need the AKC registered name or the AKC registry number to find any results if they've published them.

*_* says this about themselves on the AKC Marketplace site:

SINCE 2010
We are USDA and State licensed 

Being USDA and State licensed sounds like a good thing, but all it means is that they have above a certain number of adult or breeding dogs at their facility and over a certain number of litters a year so they are required to be licensed


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

So much good advice here. I will say that looking for as many of the important quality signals as possible (as @Rose n Poos has described) and asking direct questions if there is any ambiguity (ie What tests?), is important. My breeder's contract indicated long term support and stipulated that the dog be returned to them if rehoming is needed for any reason. However, they did not have some of the other indicators, and in fact the breeder has not been very communicative or helpful when I've messaged about some minor issues (once about Oona's dental problems/surgery and once about a call from her microchip company). So I actually harbor some doubt they would take an adult dog back if push came to shove.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

A bit of a reality check and a bit of heresy now.

Is being a PCA member breeder (or any other country's equivalent) a guarantee that all will be as described?
It can't be, but it does bring in a word not used as much, accountability.

To become a PCA member, the breeder must have done or agrees to do certain things. If they don't seem to be meeting those standards, there is accountability to the PCA.

The checklist I usually add with the tips covers much of the PCA CoE info, but a bit less stringent. A breeder doesn't have to be a PCA member to follow the standards of Members and Breeder. Not all breeders will apply. Do I want a breeder to meet those anyway? Yes, I do, for the most part.

I understand why the PCA has stricter requirements for membership but if I were looking for myself, I'm ok with a breeder who may not be a PCA member because they've been breeding for less years with fewer titled dogs so long as they're they're meeting the criteria that I consider non-negotiable. That's where the Breeder Code of Ethics comes in. Those aren't negotiable for me if I'm paying the same price whether I choose an accountable breeder or no.

What I hope is that folks on their poodle quest become familiar with best practices, and then, decide what risks they're willing to take, if any.


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## Genny (Oct 16, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Contract/Health Guarantee or Warranty Examples
> 
> FWIW, I've seen a lot of well known breeders who just don't seem to do the full minimum tests. I can only speculate that they're combining the knowledge of the lines they're using, sort of old school, with the testing of things they think might be unknowns in the line.
> I'd feel so much better if I could see the minimum for CHIC done on every breeding dog, but that's not what I see as the reality.
> ...


This is super helpful. Thank you


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