# So...about the breeder I found near me....



## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*I chose this breeder because all her dogs are health tested for all genetic and inheritable diseases known for the breed, WITH PROOF...also, she does things with her dogs...she doesn't show, but does agility, carting...bird hunting. Her dogs are beautiful (to me, anyway)....

My only problem is....she neuters and spays all puppies before they leave...between 10 and 12 weeks. In my initial email to her, I asked...if I got a recommendation and reference from my Vet, if I could be allowed to wait until my pup is 6 months old for spaying (a personal preference of mine...and it maybe simply because I've always had GSD's, and like to wait until there is a little maturity under their "pelts". 

I totally understand her point....which was....too many "doodle" dogs in the world, and she doesn't want one of her pups to get into the hands of a doodle-maker. I really don't like the idea of spaying/neutering before 3 months old, tho...not at all.

This is the only 'hitch" I'm feeling about getting a pup from her...and hopefully, once she meets me in person, I can convince her that no...I most certainly do not want to breed, or care for a litter of pups....(gawd just the thought makes me shudder )...

p *


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

It would worry me a lot... there is no reason she can't hold buyers to contracts, and then she could have legal grounds if the pup were used for breeding and it wasn't supposed to be. Many, many reputable breeders do this. I personally don't think it is healthy to spay or neuter before the dog reaches maturity. I wouldn't do it before a year, and probably not before 18 months.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Ask her about signing a contract with you. She will be able to sue you if you do breed the puppy. I, too, don't think it healthy to spay/neuter before they are at least 10 months old. Even 6 months can be a little young.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I understand the breeder's fears, but I am a bit incomfortable with spay/neuter that early as well.

Maybe a contract plus evidence of pre-payment with a vet for spay/neuter? That would demonstrate commitment.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I can see the breeder's point, really. Better to keep herself in a position where litigation is unnecessary.

And beside, suing for breach of a non-breeding contract means that the contract would have to been breached . . so the deed is already done. In court, the puppies would be the evidence.

But still, the proof of parentage would fall to the breeder. A nasty situation, and all for a couple of thousand dollars. Hardly worth the time and money to litigate. 

Having said that tho, other breeders must rely on non-breeding contracts. So . . . are breaches a common occurrence?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I always thought that if I ever fostered a dog and she had puppies for whatever reason, I would be sure everyone was fixed before being given to their new family. As a groomer I can tell you that A LOT of people don't fix their dogs, and I wonder if that breeder either had a bad experience with a buyer or has always had this.

What Vegas's breeder did is limited registration, so no AKC papers until neuter, and $100 refunded upon proof of neuter (I showed pic of the surgery sight and the documentation)


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I personally would not buy from a breeder who insisted on early spay/neuter. For a quick review of some of the research on this issue see: "Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete:One Veterinarian's Perspective" by Chris Zink. There's a link to it at caninesports.com.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I've read that if the buyer seems serious and responsible, the breeder will allow the spay / neuter to be postponed. It may involve some extra paperwork, references, and follow-up, but you're willing to do that. It's worth talking to the breeder about your concerns. They sound wonderful in every other way. Good luck!


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

My dog was neutered at 6.5 weeks old. He is now two years old, 26 inches tall and 65 lbs. He competes and holds titles in conformation (altered), lure coursing, rally obedience and is training for agility and hopefully dock jumping and weight pulling in the future. So one vets opinion is now dispelled by one owner of an early neuter's actual experience!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I personally would never buy from a breeder who insisted on early spay/neuter. Of course, I also would not purchase from a breeder who did not show their dogs in conformation.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

Did you spay or neuter your GSDs? If so, maybe you could get a letter from your vet staying that you have a history of doing so. If that doesn't work, you might offer to let her hold a sum of money for a few months until you can send her confirmation that your dog will not be a doodle maker. Offering to put your money where your mouth is might tip the scale in your favor. This woman does seem to be a caring breeder with all the right motives.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> I personally would never buy from a breeder who insisted on early spay/neuter. Of course, I also would not purchase from a breeder who did not show their dogs in conformation.


I would consider a pup from a breeder who does not show conformation for a standard poodle, but not for a mini or toy. IF the standards were conformationally sound, that is. In AKC there is so much crap that goes on with standard poodles and in UKC the competition isn't so great sometimes, so there are reasons to not do conformation showing, but still breed wonderful poodles. Standard poodle excel in hunting, for example. Those standards are incredibly smart and athletic. I prefer their more athletic look to the purely conformation standards. Too many conformation standards lack substance in bone or muscle. I am not saying I like a stocky poodle, far from it, but a recent AKC show I saw had lots of scrawny muscled standards with huge coats. A standard should be light on their feet yet athletic. 

I do think a miniature would be best coming from a conformation show background, though, because there are many, many more poor minis than there are poor standards for some reason. The minis shown conformation are practically a different dog than most minis.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

outwest said:


> I would consider a pup from a breeder who does not show conformation for a standard poodle, but not for a mini or toy. IF the standards were conformationally sound, that is. *In AKC there is so much crap that goes on with standard poodles and in UKC the competition isn't so great sometimes, so there are reasons to not do conformation showing, but still breed wonderful poodles. * This sounds like a circular argument to me. Standard poodle excel in hunting, for example. Those standards are incredibly smart and athletic. I prefer their more athletic look to the purely conformation standards. Too many conformation standards lack substance in bone or muscle. I am not saying I like a stocky poodle, far from it, but a recent AKC show I saw had lots of scrawny muscled standards with huge coats. A standard should be light on their feet yet athletic.
> 
> *I do think a miniature would be best coming from a conformation show background, though, because there are many, many more poor minis than there are poor standards for some reason. The minis shown conformation are practically a different dog than most minis.*


Bolding is mine.

Do you have statistics to support this claim? Or is this also based upon your observations at the local dog park? Did you ask those owners for papers to prove those were in fact AKC registered Miniature poodles and not mixed breeds? Based upon this and other threads, you seem to operate under the misguided perception that SPOOS are the intelligent, athletic, useful size, while toys and miniatures have no true purpose. You stated as much in another thread.

You seem to be suggesting that most SPOOS are well-bred, while minis and toys fall by the wayside (or the breeders of the latter don't put forth the same level of effort, or demonstrate the same level of compliance to AKC standards). I don't believe either to be the case, so please correct me if I've misunderstood your post. 

Let me take a wild guess. You're considering all the poodle _mixes_, most of which are smaller, in your calculations? Or you're considering the products of BYBs and PMs? Yep, there are probably more mini/toy poodles coming from BYBs and PMs. Smaller size, easier to sell. _But these don't count._ These dogs would never be allowed to enter a show ring and aren't produced by _reputable _AKC breeders. 

I predict there are as many "poorly bred" AKC SPOOS as there are AKC miniature or toy poodles. In fact, if you calculate it based on percentages, considering there are probably more minis and toys in existence along with more breeders of same, I'm sure the numbers are fairly consistent across the board. Bad breeders and poorly bred specimens exist in all sizes. 

In summary, a well-bred miniature poodle and a well-bred toy poodle have the same AKC breed standard as a well-bred SPOO. Period. Show dog or not. The breed is POODLE, the sizes are standard, miniature and toy.



> *Posted by Outwest:
> The minis shown conformation are practically a different dog than most minis.*


As an aside, none of my three miniature poodles were shown in conformation. They're all from champion lines, but none of them ever set foot in a show ring. So, I disagree with your opinion based on personal experience.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> I would consider a pup from a breeder who does not show conformation for a standard poodle, but not for a mini or toy. IF the standards were conformationally sound, that is. In AKC there is so much crap that goes on with standard poodles and in UKC the competition isn't so great sometimes, so there are reasons to not do conformation showing, but still breed wonderful poodles. Standard poodle excel in hunting, for example. Those standards are incredibly smart and athletic. I prefer their more athletic look to the purely conformation standards. Too many conformation standards lack substance in bone or muscle. I am not saying I like a stocky poodle, far from it, but a recent AKC show I saw had lots of scrawny muscled standards with huge coats. A standard should be light on their feet yet athletic.
> 
> I do think a miniature would be best coming from a conformation show background, though, because there are many, many more poor minis than there are poor standards for some reason. The minis shown conformation are practically a different dog than most minis.


I'm curious as to where you gather your "information." Is it solely through your own observations, or have you been reading or hearing these things from multiple, credible sources? If it's the latter, by all means share. Which AKC and UKC shows have you been attending lately? I wonder if some of our forum members and/or breeders have been participating in them and might have something to add to the conversation? It certainly sounds as though you are rather down on conformation showing all together; too much crap in AKC pertaining to the standard poods and not always such great competitors in UKC, you say? Do you sense these same shortcomings in the show world of Whippets as well? I really don't know what to make of your remarks. Though I have no inclination to hide my mini, who does have a champion sire, but only ever stepped into the conformation ring to get to the other side.:biggrin1: I sense perhaps you're more than a little "cool" on some minis, but if you ever get east I'll take you around and show you a whole bunch of really cool, bred to standard specimens.:dog:


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

cavon said:


> My dog was neutered at 6.5 weeks old. He is now two years old, 26 inches tall and 65 lbs. He competes and holds titles in conformation (altered), lure coursing, rally obedience and is training for agility and hopefully dock jumping and weight pulling in the future. So one vets opinion is now dispelled by one owner of an early neuter's actual experience!


Dear Cavon;

Although Dr. Zinks article Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete is subtitled *One Veterinarian's Opinion* the article is based on *scientific fact*.

A study of *1444 *Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found *bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age* were *significantly taller* than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age....one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture......study showed that dogs spayed or neutered *before 5 1/2 months* had a *significantly higher incidence* of *hip dysplasia* than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age.

A study of cardiac tumors in dogs showed that there was a *5 times greater risk of hemangiosarcoma*, one of the three most common cancers in dogs, *in spayed bitches* than intact bitches and a *2.4 times greater risk* of hemangiosarcoma in *neutered dogs* as compared to intact males.

A health survey of* several thousand* Golden Retrievers showed that spayed or neutered dogs were more likely to develop *hypothyroidism*.

The opinion that Dr. Zink talks about is the 'practice of routinely spaying or neutering every dog at or before the age of 6 months is not a *black-and-white issue'.*

Your dog at *two years* of age is *very young* to be diagnosed with thyroid disease, hip dysplasia or low bone density. Unless you have had a bone scan done, hips x-rayed or thyroid Thyroglobulin Autoantibodies (TgAA) and free t4 tested you *do not know what the results of his early neutering may be*. He may have all three of these diseases right now but without any visible symptoms.

In relation to the cancer and ruptured ligaments only further health studies and time will tell if your dog is affected. The poodles that I own and have bred have been very stoic and do not usually show pain until it is quite severe.

I do hope for your sake and your poodles sake that your dog does not suffers any ill effects by his early neuter. Educating yourself on what these early effects may be and how to best treat your dog if they do occur may be prudent in this case.


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*I did ask about getting references from my Vet, if we could postpose spaying...and she said... 

"As far a neuter/spay it would depend on me meeting, application, Refs, deposits and their Vet.... before I would make any other decisions other then what I have already in the works..... which to date has been very good and has not cause ANY problems with any of my pups..Just keeps them safe from being used in hybrid programs and unwanted/unplanned pregnancies.."

So...maybe after reading over my application, getting reference from my Vet...and meeting me, she'll know I'm not wanting puppies in my life in any way....

She doesn't show conformation, but she does do a lot with her dogs....and she health tests parents...I get an ethical "feel" when I read it...also, once you've put in an app, you can go to her place and visit with her and see her dogs....even before a deposit crosses hands....which I would do. I do get the feeling that she had a bad experience....since I've seen many MANY breeders w/limited registrations....but she is the first I've ever heard of who spay/neuters to avoid the "possibility". 

This is her site...
Dreamscapes Standard Poodles - Home

All of my dogs have been neutered or spayed in the past, none going past 6 months to have it done, and I have never had any problems doing it at that age. 

p*


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Fluffyspoos mentioned limited registration and her breeder holding papers until spay or neuter was done. In Canada you cannot do this. Breeders registering dogs here have up to six months from the date of purchase to provide the papers to the new owner- period. If you do not comply, you could lose your membership and/or face a stiff fine from the CKC. That being said, it is my opinion a female should not be spayed until just prior to when she likely would experience a first heat. And a male should not be neutered until at least a year old preferably older.


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## first poodle (Jan 12, 2010)

I think the spay should wait 'til at least a year and the way to try to enforce it from the breeder perspective is holding back the papers until proof of surgery is provided. Even our local Humane Society doesn't neuter until after 6 months. They will give back 1/2 the adoption fee upon proof of surgery if you adopt a puppy younger than 6 months. 

Our spoo Ginger was sold prior to 6 months of age, breeding contract said spay required but when she came back to the breeder at 2 years she wasn't spayed. Breeder had it done then before we could bring her home although we would have done it anyway. So it does happen, and while we know she hadn't had any litters who knows what those people's intentions were - maybe she didn't take so that's why she came back? (They did provide the most lame excuses for returning a dog that had been part of their family for almost 2 years)

I can see both sides but for the sake of reducing the number of doddles that's very hard on her puppies.


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## first poodle (Jan 12, 2010)

I didn't know the CKC rules in Canada but even holding registration back for 6 months from purchase would help. Put the limitation on, keep in touch and hope they follow thru before you are forced to register anyway. If you, as breeder registered would you be forced to send registration papers to the owners if they hadn't met the terms of the contract?


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I really don't see how the breeder can say that the early s/n has caused NO problems. How long have they been breeding, do they keep in contact with ALL the puppy owners???? IF they DO keep in touch then why wouldn't a Limited Registration suffice or $$$back when send in proof of s/n. Just kinda hit me wrong like a "breeder" saying that they have NO health issues in their lines when any breeder on here can say that all lines have health issues it is just knowing the lines the know what is best to breed.


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*My thinking was that somebody breeding Doodles couldn't register them anyway, so maybe that's why a limited registration doesn't ease her mind. All I can do is speculate now, and then ask right up front when I meet her....

She doesn't have but one...maybe two litters a year, and only if there are 3 deposits already paid...She isn't producing many pups in a year, so she might be able to keep up with the majority of her dogs. I couldn't find where she said they started breeding, if it's in the website at all. The spaying thing is the only thing on her whole website that gives me pause...otherwise she appears to be an ethical and careful breeder.

p *


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

There was a recent discussion similar to this on a facebook group I'm a member of...the difference between the 2 situations is the fact that it was a Breeder that was troubled by a client that WANTED to spay/neuter early because thats what their vet advised.

I would never choose to spay/neuter my animal early because of all the risks involved with it, BUT if this is a breeder that you desperately want a puppy from then maybe the early spay/neuter won't be that terrible...if it were me I'd look for another breeder (but I'm not opposed to shipping a puppy)


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## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

*Desparation breeds mistakes....I wouldn't allow myself to be that. I don't want to have someone else pick my pup...unless I have some say so in the choice...and that's what basically happens over the internet/phone. I love MoJo to bits....however I know enough about dogs, that had I met the litter first hand, I would not have chose him. He was one of those pups that are born not having a real need of people or approval (just marches to the beat of his own drummer)...his bonding gene is off kilter....he didn't follow even at 9 weeks...the first time he was glad I came home from work, I sat down and cried tears of joy (that took almost a year). He's bonded now....well, as much as he can be....and I accept him for who he is....he's smart, and he's kind to children and small dogs...and very social....so he has some wonderful qualities....I miss a close bond tho.

p *


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## three*please (Jan 24, 2014)

I know years have passed since this was first posted, but we recently picked up our puppy from Dreamscapes...he is 15 weeks old. The breeder was awesome to work with and we did not have to have our puppy neutered before he came home to us. He does need to be neutered by 6 months old though.

Corrie and I conversed for many weeks and she was always full of information, advice and instruction. We personally drove from Washington to Montana to meet her and see her pups. She lives in the mountains on beautiful property with lots of room for her livestock and dogs to roam. 

Her dogs were in fabulous condition and sooooo friendly. They had great temperaments and well behaved around us and our small children. 

Stryker, our silver spoo, is such a good boy. She does rigorous testing and did an amazing job of matching Stryker to our family. We feel so very blessed to have him in our lives.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My breeder believes that neutering is best done at around one year. She says some owners may opt to neuter earlier, over concerns of leg lifting or sexual behaviors. I would seek another breeder, if withholding registration papers and your signature on a spay neuter agreement or pre-paying your vet are not enough. There may be a lot of Doodles out there but there are also lots of poor examples of purebred dogs too. It's a mutual trust situation. I'm so happy with the breeder I picked! She wants what is really best for the dog.


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