# Question: Can you call an oversized toy a mini, and vice versa?



## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Yes, a dumb question. If you breed toy poodles and one is taller than 10", can you just call it a miniature? And vice versa.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Yes, any poodle over 10 inches and not more than 15 inches is considered a miniature for competition purposes. However, if it came from a toy poodle background one usually refers to it as an "oversize toy".

Miniature poodles who come from miniatures are usually at least 13 inches.

In the same way, poodles who are over 15 inches and less than 17 inches are usually called "oversize minis" even though they are technically standards.

It is not a good idea to breed minis to toys or standards. All poodles, by the way, are just registered as poodles with AKC. The variety size is not part of the registration.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

This may not be the case in countries outside the US, however - in the UK the registries are separate and closed, and a toy can only be bred from toy parents, minis from minis, standards from standards.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

I'm asking because I would like to show my poodle in conformation. I like the 10" or 11" size because I think it would be practical to be able to carry my dog in one hand so the other is free for a cane or railing. In ten years I will be 75, so I'm looking at various things. I don't want a teensy dog, though they are very cute.

So, if my toy poodle ends up being oversize, I could show her as a miniature?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

No you can't my boy grew too tall to show he is 11" and 6 pound 4 ounces at 22 months


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

This is Leonard my show poodle wash out


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

For showing, I have heard you want a dog at the top of the toy or mini height, but not over. We have several members here who have dogs that grew too big and that is why they were offered for sale.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

Thank you all. Now, I think maybe I should be looking for a smaller mini rather than a larger toy.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I believe but not positive that you would consider each size as their "own breed" toys are toy mini's re mine etc. If your toy breed poodle goes over sized he cannot be shown as a toy , and he isn't a mini. I believe that is why some people end up with very nice dogs as the were either over or under their size requirement for their type.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Excerpted from this link:

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GeneticDiversityInToyPoodles.php

"The Poodle has been bred in several sizes and Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles are recognized by the American Kennel Club. The British Kennel Club also recognizes three sizes. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) recognizes the three sizes variants but adds in the medium Poodle. *The different sizes are not considered breeds, but rather varieties with the miniature and toy being merely smaller versions of the standard. Crosses between various sizes are allowed and offspring registered based on height at the withers. However, the trend is to select parents within the same size range more like breeds. * ***This was a surprise. Not sure which registry is being referred to here.***
The Standard Poodle sets the size for the three (or four) different varieties of Poodles. Most kennel clubs state that an adult Standard Poodle must be over 15 inches (38 cm) at the shoulder, while the FCI sets the size for standards at 18-24 inches (45-60 cm). The adult Miniature Poodle must be 11-15 inches (28-38 cm) at the shoulder in registries other than the FCI, where the size range is 11-14 inches (28-35 cm). The slightly smaller size range for Miniature Poodles and higher size range for Standard Poodles in the FCI is to allow for the Medium (Moyen) variety at 14-18 inches (35-45 cm). Toy Poodles are from 7-10 inches (17.8-25.4 cm) in height and 6-9 lbs (3-4 kg) in weight. 
There is a theory that Maltese or Havanese may have been crossed to poodles prior to the 1800’s to produce Toy Poodles as suggested by the silky coats found in early toys.1 The present DNA-based study also boosts this theory. The first Toy Poodles depicted in Europe were usually white or white with markings and used to hunt truffles or act as companions. Small white toys from the European continent are thought to have been the foundation for the breed in both the UK and the US. Toy Poodles (which were white) were established as a breed in the United States as far back as 1896 and the first Toy champion was recorded in 1910. Shortly after that time Toy Poodles were accepted as a breed by the AKC, separate from other Poodles. These early Toys were small (3.5 to 5 lbs.) and did not have the same type as the Miniature and Standard Poodles. The breed standard proposed by the International Toy Poodle Club in Philadelphia was published by the AKC in the official book of breed standards in 1929 and had a required weight maximum of 12 pounds. A height maximum of 10 inches was added subsequently to prevent larger dogs from dominating in shows1.
According to Mackey Irick (“The New Poodle”, 1986),1 many US Toy Poodles can be traced back to CH Happy Chappy, born in 1932 bred by Florence Orsie. Happy Chappy is also the sire of the first colored Toy champion, a silver produced by breeding him to a silver miniature. In 1940, registration papers were revoked for these inter-variety offspring with the argument that these dogs were not true Toy Poodles. Research presented by EE. Ferguson to the AKC resulted in a reversal of this decision, and Toy Poodles were placed within the Poodle breed as a size variety instead of as a separate breed in 1943. 
*Between the 1940s and the 1980s many Toy to Miniature crosses were done to try to improve the type of the existing Toy Poodles and add new colors. This type of breeding continued until the 1970’s or 1980’s, after which most breeding was kept mainly within the variety and within colors1. Although the result of crossing the original Toys to Miniatures improved head, length of leg, length of body, and coat, it has made it difficult to produce well typed dogs within the desired height of 9.5 to 10 inches at the shoulder. The height issue continues to be one of the biggest challenges for breeders2.* The Toy Poodle continues to have several different colors that succeed in the show ring and strict within color breeding is no longer the norm.3 Combinations of red/black, brown/black, black/white, silver/white are more commonly found together in pedigrees than others. 

1Mackey J. Irick, Jr. “The New Poodle 6th Edition”, Chapter Howell Book House, New York, NY 1986
2Christi McDonald, “Toy Poodles: 40 years ago and Today”, Poodle Variety April-June 2016, p 114
3Christi McDonald, “Beyond Black and White”, Poodle Variety July-September 2016 p 12.

Mufar42, just substitute "variety" for breed . (But in another of the UCDavis genetic history of Miniatures there is a reference to Miniatures being a genetically different breed from Standards. Just gets more confusing, doesn't it!)

The bold print is mine. I wonder if this is why some toys go oversize?

My boys are an oversize toy/small mini cross and ended up at about 14" and 13" at the shoulder. We call them mini's.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Rose, thank you for time and interest in sharing this info. I too had run across that article awhile ago and thought it it fascinating how our current favorite breed evolved over time to become what it is today.



Rose n Poos said:


> ...There is a theory that Maltese or Havanese may have been crossed to poodles prior to the 1800’s to produce Toy Poodles as suggested by the silky coats found in early toys. 1 The present DNA-based study also boosts this theory...
> 
> 1 Mackey J. Irick, Jr. “The New Poodle 6th Edition”, Chapter Howell Book House, New York, NY 1986...


I wish they had explored and written more about this. I can see the Maltese background genetic connection, but not so much the Havanese b/c that breed has a lot of health problems now. But did Havenese have all those faulty genes back then? Just wondering out loud...

But that's what they said they found in '86, and I wonder what a modern DNA test would show. And if ancient breeders used Maltese to get the white color, I suppose it took a lot of selective breeding get back those long legs and the prancing walk of poodles since Maltese are short-legged. Very interesting!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Vita said:


> I wish they had explored and written more about this. I can see the Maltese background genetic connection, but not so much the Havanese b/c that breed has a lot of health problems now. But did Havenese have all those faulty genes back then? Just wondering out loud...


That is a shame that Havanese have a lot of health problems now. I considered getting one way down the road in the future instead of another Maltese because Maltese have have way too many horrible health problems in the breed and I thought Havs were pretty healthy.


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