# Poodle, Pap, or Coton



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

We are at the point of being ready to share our hearts and home with another puppy. I am looking for a performance lines for agility and obedience work. I've narrowed it down to yes a Poodle (mini), Papillon, or Coton de Tulear. I am hoping for this puppy to be a friend to Bella (toy) and a competitive team mate for me. 

Anyone that has worked with, trained, or been owned by one of these breeds I would appreciate your input


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

My sister has two Cotons. I gotta say, I can't see them enjoying any kind of agility. Also, no offense intended, but her dogs are kind of dumb, the male especially. Sweet dogs! Both very nervous. Abby, the female, was stricken with glaucoma at about 8 years old and had to have both eyes removed. She has not adjusted well. She is now almost 15 and for the last 7 years more or less lays on the couch and barks when she needs someone to come get her to either take her out or feed her. Both dogs have spent their lives with extreme allergies. Sebastian is very oily and has the red staining on all four legs, beard, and eyes. Abby gets hot spots. They are only fed the best kibbles and they have tried all different kinds. They have tried all the remedies you can find and nothing works. Their coats are horrible for matting. My sister brushes and combs them daily and still they would matt. Now she just keeps them short because they are so old and it is too much for them to be brushed daily. Honestly, just my opinion, but I wouldn't want one.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Based on my very small sample, and what others report about their Papillns, I find them rather different in character from poodles. Poppy enjoys the game of doing as I ask - she loves the treats etc, but half the fun for her is doing something with her human. Sophy, my Papillon, is rather more focussed on what is in it for her. She is a very self contained little dog, and has very decided views about what she does, and does not, like doing - she quickly decided she liked the dog walk, A frame and tunnel at agility, could cope with the seesaw, was not going to jump, and simply could not see the point in weaving when it was so much quicker to run straight past the poles! The jumping, I suspect, was down to the same physical problem that eventually gave her a slipped disc; the weaving was my fault for not practicing enough; but they illustrate her very decided nature. Sophy thinks in a very different way from Poppy - she is better at problem solving, has greater perseverance, and is certainly more determined, all good traits in an agility dog. On the other hand she is less physically sound, more argumentative, and a lot less tractable!


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

My experience is strictly from people bringing their pets out to the obedience yard for classes. The classes were aimed at having a family member who was a joy to live with, not showing. We did get pups who were headed to the conformation ring sometimes. Anyhow, the Coton's gene pool is just too limited at this time, and consequently they have a lot of health problems. And I agree about the coat, too. Even a groomer would be hard pressed to maintain their just-waiting-to-knot coat. That said, the ones I met were sweet dogs, and cuddly. If they were intelligent, they hid it well. The Papillons, on the other hand, excelled at showing off their intelligence. They loved outsmarting their owners, and then tossing back their ears and laughing about it. They literally flew over the agility course, and had beautiful precise recalls. Health wise, the only problems I remember were related to the frailty of their little legs. Several had injuries from being dropped and/or having things dropped on them. Their worst issue was incessant yapping- think Dino from the Flintstones. I'm not saying all Papillons have the problem... just all the ones that came through class. Also, and this may have been caused by spoiling, they tended to squint their eyes and feign deafness, especially if they did not want to follow a command. We had only a handful of Miniature Poodles come through classes, so maybe someone else can tell you about them. They are a lot sturdier than Cotons or Papillons. Given a choice of the three breeds I would go with a mini, hands down (and I am a Standard Poodle person). Just find a good breeder who does all the health testing possible, and make sure you are willing to deal with poodle coat. I always tell people that they should either enjoy grooming and/or be able to afford to have someone else do it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Charmed said:


> The Papillons, on the other hand, excelled at showing off their intelligence. They loved outsmarting their owners, and then tossing back their ears and laughing about it.


Yep - been there! And then they grin at the Instructor and try and blag a treat or two for being so cute...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I vote mpoo. I haven't met many cotons but lots of paps. They of course are often really great agility dogs and I know someone who is working on an OTCh with one and a UDX with another. But they can be fragile. Also apparently you have to be really careful with them with anesthesia etc. I want you not to be worrying after little Bella's accident.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

As you already have experience with the lovely little Bella, why not go with a mini? I've found that my dogs love being with other poodles so having two would maybe be good for each other?

The size difference is not huge and although Pushkin outweighs and can outgrip Pippin in play (tug of war is very one-sided!) they kind of complement each other - she's faster than him but he's sturdier.

Mind you, I love Papillons...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the only coton i ever met did strike me as something of a birdbrain, but that's just me. yappy dogs (and he was a bit of that) do tend to strike me that way. i agree with charmed about the small gene pool. i had lowchen, and actually there are some that made it big in agility (look up pistil pete in agility), but i have pretty much decided i will not get another lowchen precisely because the gene pool is so small. it can't be good for the breed, i'm sorry to say, because both of mine were easy to live with and intelligent. a minipoo just seems like the logical choice for what you want.


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## elem8886 (Sep 19, 2012)

I have a little experience living with a Coton - we had a 6 year old male here with us for a month or two. He was from Mapixie Cotons in Edmonds, Washington. The website is not very informative but his breeder, Anika, is very nice and happy to talk to prospective owners. I don't think she has puppies right now but I'm sure she could help you find a Coton breeder who would fit your needs.

The boy we had here was a sturdy little dog and he was very smart (yes, different from poodle smart, but still smart) - he also had a Utility Dog title and an Open Agility title. He did tend to be a little bit yappy when someone came to the door but that was it. One thing about Cotons is that they are really _really_ "companion" dogs and even more than poodles need to be around their people.

I groomed him twice while he was here and didn't have any trouble with matting. Mind you, his hair was maybe max. 3", not a full coat. I bathed him in the laundry tub using Mink Sheen shampoo/conditioner (from his breeder) and then used my hairdryer to dry him off. It was a lot less work than grooming Tika!  I brushed him every other day and bathed him once his hair started to look dry - dry static-y hair was more prone to matting than clean, conditioned hair.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

There are some rather well-known and multi-MACH Agility Cotons in my area. The mom breeds them and the son runs them. A couple of them are lightning fast; a couple of them are not as fast but still pretty good.

It would be much easier to find a performance breeder of Papillons, as they are a very popular Agility breed.

There are also many Poodle breeders who specialize in performance, and excellent breeders of both minis who are very successful in Agility.

Personally, I'd go for the minipoo!

--Q


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

When I considered adding a second dog, I investigated into both the Pap and Coton. I talked to plenty of breeders (both breeds), owners and attended some breed specific playgroups.

My conclusion: 

Coton = Intensive grooming needs. Some are pretty smart and fast. Some are pretty dumb. Most of them are more in the middle - affectionate, happy white dogs.

Papillon = Smart but not as willing to please as poodles. I would say around 70% of the ones I met are pretty yappy. 

I have a mini poodle. He's very smart and affectionate. Reserved. Super loving to people he approves and can be pretty aloof to others. Can be willful. High energy. NEEDS to be the center of attention. Very trainable and willing to please (again, just the people he approves).


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Thank you all for the opinions. The Pap would be a possible good fit for Bella but I really can't go through all this worry about tiny legs and anesthesia (reason I won't consider another toy) so unless I find convincing research otherwise I'll look elsewhere. 

This is a lonnnnng way off as Bella comes first always and I won't consider adding a new member to our household until she is completely healed. Although I've been told if all is successful she could return to agility I'm not sure that I will ever be ready to take that chance which is the reason for another team mate. Until then I get to play with my son's MAS


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Minnie said:


> Thank you all for the opinions. The Pap would be a possible good fit for Bella but I really can't go through all this worry about tiny legs and anesthesia (reason I won't consider another toy) so unless I find convincing research otherwise I'll look elsewhere.
> 
> This is a lonnnnng way off as Bella comes first always and I won't consider adding a new member to our household until she is completely healed. Although I've been told if all is successful she could return to agility I'm not sure that I will ever be ready to take that chance which is the reason for another team mate. Until then I get to play with my son's MAS


I have seen some papillions that are on the larger end of the spectrum. They seem a bit sturdier to me as far as looking at them. I can't speak to anesthesia issues or anything about the breed but they seem to do really well in agility.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the anaesthetic risk is less with modern anaesthetics and monitoring protocols - probably no greater than for any dog of the same size and weight. But I would definitely look for a pup from larger, performance lines if you decide on a Papillon - the size differences can be considerable, just as they are with Toy Poodles, and a rather larger dog would be much more robust. 

I suspect yappiness comes down to socialising and training - too many people don't bother to socialise toy puppies, and end up with an anxious, yappy dog as a result.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Gee *Minnie*, betcha can't bet where I'd caste my vote!


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

fjm said:


> I suspect yappiness comes down to socialising and training - too many people don't bother to socialise toy puppies, and end up with an anxious, yappy dog as a result.


Completely agree on this! So many comments about toy poodles being yappy and it couldn't be further from the truth as long as the owner is willing to put in the work. I do tend to find Shelties as yappy (seem to be the most vocal at the trials) but often this is just when on course and the rest of the time they are great!



Chagall's mom said:


> Gee *Minnie*, betcha can't bet where I'd caste my vote!


Hmmmm let me guess... Coton :aetsch: Couldn't resist that one! If someday we are lucky enough to be blessed with a mini I could only hope he/she is half as amazing as Changall!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Minnie said:


> If someday we are lucky enough to be blessed with a mini I could only hope he/she is half as amazing as Changall!


If the day comes when you decide _do_ you want a mini, please let me know. I want in on that adventure from the start! Thanks for the sweet talk about Chagall.


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## Petzynga (Oct 7, 2014)

Hi Minnie!

Here you have a lot of information about these breeds, hope it helps you decide...
http://petzynga.com/dogbreeds


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