# OFA Hip vs PENN Hip



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

My vet and I just got into it recently over Pennhip vs. OFA. He does not like OFA because he thinks it is too subjective. He also said that he would NEVER breed an OFA Fair. (He's not a breeder.)

I agree that Pennhip does give you harder data but what do breeders do with that data? There are plenty of Poodle breeders out there breeding Poodles with .50+ scores (mean we decided was .41 I think... Feralpudle will remember). I feel like too many low end breeder use Pennhip simply as a way to show buyers that they "test". 

I do have to say that I do like to see Pennhip scors in the .20s If only we all had dogs with hips like that!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> My vet and I just got into it recently over Pennhip vs. OFA. He does not like OFA because he thinks it is too subjective. He also said that he would NEVER breed an OFA Fair. (He's not a breeder.)
> 
> I agree that Pennhip does give you harder data but what do breeders do with that data? There are plenty of Poodle breeders out there breeding Poodles with .50+ scores (mean we decided was .41 I think... Feralpudle will remember). I feel like too many low end breeder use Pennhip simply as a way to show buyers that they "test".
> 
> I do have to say that I do like to see Pennhip scors in the .20s If only we all had dogs with hips like that!


Can I ask why one would think a low end breeder would use Pennhip rather than OFA when Pennhip is so much more expensive. I would think that if they were just using it as a means to prove they test, they would go with the cheapest method possible, wouldn't they? Pennhip here is about $700, OFA can be found for $200.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Can I ask why one would think a low end breeder would use Pennhip rather than OFA when Pennhip is so much more expensive. I would think that if they were just using it as a means to prove they test, they would go with the cheapest method possible, wouldn't they? Pennhip here is about $700, OFA can be found for $200.


Pennhip allows breeders to test early and thus breed early. From the Pennhip web site:

_The PennHIP method can be reliably performed on a dog as young as 16 weeks old._

But then they follow it up with this which sort of counters their own argument:

_The reliability of the PennHIP method slightly improves with age, with one year 1 year being marginally superior to 6 months, which in turn is marginally better than 4 months. For all dogs, we recommend when possible, to use the mean (average) of repeated evaluations to get a more reliable estimate of a dog's hip laxity status (phenotype)._

Also, I think that Pennhip scores are hard for buyers to interpret. Most buyers get that OFA Excellent is better than Good which is better than Fair (or God forbid Mild HD). They also understand that breeding a Fair to a Fair might not be the best strategy. However, how many buyers know how to interpret a Pennhip score of .52? How would you feel about a breeder who bred a .54 and .57 together? Pennhip never gives a "non passing" score the way OFA does. I feel like some breeders use Pennhip so that they can say that they test even though their Pennhip scores show hips that are marginal at best.

Anyway, I don't dislike or mistrust Pennhip as an evaluation tool. I fully agree that we could effect overall change in our breed's hip quality if we only bred Poodles with .40 or lower scores.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> if they were just using it as a means to prove they test, they would go with the cheapest method possible, wouldn't they? Pennhip here is about $700, OFA can be found for $200.


That sounds logical, but unfortunately, for what I have seen so far with breeders who want to hide something - NO money or effort is spared >: [

Stargazer - thanks so much for posting !!!!


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

I think one difficulty with OFA is that many vets and most owners don't know how critical it is to have the dog positioned properly and how to tell if the xray shows good positioning or not. Having the dog slightly out of position can make a good hip look bad and vice versa. Just for information, there's a great hip xray tutorial on the Leerburg website....
The Importance of Good Positioning on Canine Hip X-rays 
And it seems it's up to the breeder or owner to make sure it's a good xray that they're sending in because I don't think OFA sends very many back for bad positioning.

The simple way I remember the PennHIP score meaning is by the distraction index. When the leg is pulled on to measure the laxity, the hip comes partially out of the socket. A hip distraction index of .25 (ie LDI/RDI=.25) says that the ball of the hip comes 25% out of the socket. A distraction index of .54 or .57 means the ball comes 54% or 57% out of the socket. That's more than half way!! It's really easy to envision what sort of damage would have long term...


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

I did penn hip testing and believe me I don't want to be or intend to be a low end breeder. I did it on the referral of 2 vets that told me the difference of testing done and felt that penn hip testing was more thorough. Now seeing that penn hip cost me nearly $800 I think next time I will go through ofa. So which kind of breeder does this make me now? a cheap one? or a better breeder? I didn't look to see which cost more or less, I thought i was getting better testing done and was willing to pay more to do so.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

Melodyp77 said:


> I did penn hip testing and believe me I don't want to be or intend to be a low end breeder. I did it on the referral of 2 vets that told me the difference of testing done and felt that penn hip testing was more thorough. Now seeing that penn hip cost me nearly $800 I think next time I will go through ofa. So which kind of breeder does this make me now? a cheap one? or a better breeder? I didn't look to see which cost more or less, I thought i was getting better testing done and was willing to pay more to do so.


my dog is micro-chipped and just shy of 2 yrs old. he'll be 2 in may. i just got his hips done less then a month ago and just the results last wk.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Very interesting thread ! I hope it is okay that i revive it ... I was looking to find and explaination of hip scores Penn-hip that is ... It helped me to understand what the scores mean .. I have always used OFA. OFA xray deals with the conformation of the hip joint overall..You are looking to see if there is artritis or changes in the bone density .. Penn hip Elasticity would deal with ligaments ... Interesting thanks for the xplain ....
Part of the cost of Penn-hip is the heavy anesthesia that is used . They literally pull the leg/hip joint out of the socket..What worries me is the risk of cavitation of the the hip socket. Injuries have and can occur.. Not worth that risk for me ..Ofa has been the industry standard for as long as I can remember...
I have learned throughout the years that expensive does not necessarily make it better ...


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