# Winter Nose



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I agree. 
'winter nose' is just varying degrees of poor pigment... True black pigment stays black throughout winter without fading. My terrier has had a black nose since she was a pup, she's now 11 and her nose is still as black as it ever was and it never fades in winter or gets darker in summer; it's truely black pigment, there is no variation of it!

If it fades in winter, especially if it's quite noticable and as a young dog, it's not what I'd call good pigment.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Teddy's nose has bad pigment, but because of his colour, it doesn't look out of place to the casual observer. One lady we met even commented about how much she loved his "chocolate nose". LOL


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not agree that it is bad pigment in most cases. I can have a puppy in California where their winters are not harsh and this pup does not get winter nose badly. Out of the same litter, we have pups who live in harsher climates who do get it very bad. Another very well known breeder of reds told me it is caused from lack of vitamin D because of the lack of sunlight. Makes sense to me when you think of all of the ways humans suffer in the same situation. Apparently fish oil and vitamin D can help solve the problem. The harsher the winter the worse the winter nose.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey, I take 2000 units of vitamin D every day--doctor's orders. I was deficient, apparently. I wonder if I should put a tiny amount in Teddy's food every day. I'll check with my vet. 

Thanks for the suggestion, Cherie!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

After bloodwork conducted by my health care professional, they upped my daily dose of 5,000 units of vitamin D to *10,000*!!!! Apparently I'm very D-deficient! I had been taking 5,000 for several months but my numbers were still quite low. 

Lucy's nose lightened a bit this winter, but it's already darkened noticeably just since the sun started getting stronger in our part of the world. I've also been giving her fish oil for several months (YUM! :wacko Hubby commented on her black nose just yesterday!


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## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

*It is REAL!*

I am sure there are cases of bad pigment, but Winter Nose does exist. Especially for dogs that are outside a lot during the harsh, dry windy winter. I am not sure what elements are involved, but I have found that while living up north, some winters the dogs will get winter nose terribly and some winters they won't or will get it just barely. In every case, they black up again.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Jillian said:


> I am sure there are cases of bad pigment, but Winter Nose does exist. Especially for dogs that are outside a lot during the harsh, dry windy winter. I am not sure what elements are involved, but I have found that while living up north, some winters the dogs will get winter nose terribly and some winters they won't or will get it just barely. In every case, they black up again.


I have seen this too. If a puppy of mine went to Florida, it would likely not get winter nose at all. But living here in Ontario or North Dakota like Lucy where winters are harsh and sunlight is sorely lacking, it can be brutal. Just depends where you are if you get it all or how badly you get it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Marian said:


> Hey, I take 2000 units of vitamin D every day--doctor's orders. I was deficient, apparently. I wonder if I should put a tiny amount in Teddy's food every day. I'll check with my vet.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, Cherie!


Just be careful Marian. Vitamin D is one that we do not pee out like vitamin C so we can overdose on it. Check with a vet how much a wee dog like Teddy should have. I wouldn't want to see anything bad happen to him!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> After bloodwork conducted by my health care professional, they upped my daily dose of 5,000 units of vitamin D to *10,000*!!!! Apparently I'm very D-deficient! I had been taking 5,000 for several months but my numbers were still quite low.
> 
> Lucy's nose lightened a bit this winter, but it's already darkened noticeably just since the sun started getting stronger in our part of the world. I've also been giving her fish oil for several months (YUM! :wacko Hubby commented on her black nose just yesterday!


Ahhhh...but will YOUR nose turn nice and dark now that your dose will be doubled?? LOL!!!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ahhhh...but will YOUR nose turn nice and dark now that your dose will be doubled?? LOL!!!


Only if my freckles merge! :lol: ound:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Only if my freckles merge! :lol: ound:


Well, your freckles are cute as they are, so hopefully this willl not happen! And your pink nose is just fine too!


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ahhhh...but will YOUR nose turn nice and dark now that your dose will be doubled?? LOL!!!


:doh:lmao

You two kill me


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I do not agree that it is bad pigment in most cases. I can have a puppy in California where their winters are not harsh and this pup does not get winter nose badly. Out of the same litter, we have pups who live in harsher climates who do get it very bad. Another very well known breeder of reds told me it is caused from lack of vitamin D because of the lack of sunlight. Makes sense to me when you think of all of the ways humans suffer in the same situation. Apparently fish oil and vitamin D can help solve the problem. The harsher the winter the worse the winter nose.


I think winter nose is poor pigment too , If its lack of vitamin D then That means these dogs are lacking something genetically. If your dog is outside all of the time and its still not getting enough vitamin D then thats a issue with the dog genetically. It only takes 15 mins a day to get enough vitamin D from the sun.

Some breeders don't see winter nose as an issue but thats something I would definitely breed away from. Enzo never had winter nose and he came from MI his whole litter where playing in the snow with BLACK noses his parents black noses too. Jeans Bindi never got winter nose either and she lives where it snows in the winter. 

I noticed the "white" poodles with pink skin get this too and most breeders want Ice white poodles with the dark grey skin.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think "winter nose" is related to poor pigment. We see plenty of dogs here who lose their nose pigment and plenty who don't. For those who do lose their pigment, it may "tan up" in the summer, but it is never really true black like those dogs who have good natural pigment.

Just one more thing to ad to list of things to think about as a breeder.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> I think "winter nose" is related to poor pigment. We see plenty of dogs here who lose their nose pigment and plenty who don't. For those who do lose their pigment, it may "tan up" in the summer, but it is never really true black like those dogs who have good natural pigment.
> 
> Just one more thing to ad to list of things to think about as a breeder.


I seen what your talking about with the tanned up noses, their noses never get true black again.

I side from being poor pigment its nasty looking to me too. I would be mad personally if my puppies nose turned liver because it was cold. Liver noses only look good on browns lol


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well then, I guess I will put it down to complete coincidence that my pups in warmer climates do not get it like the pups in colder climates do. Learn something new every day I guess!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well then, I guess I will put it down to complete coincidence that my pups in warmer climates do not get it like the pups in colder climates do. Learn something new every day I guess!


We did not say Winter nose did not exist, just that it is poor pigment.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Talking of Winter nose, does anyone have any recipes for home made remedies? I am surrounded by acres of nettles and elder bushes - seems a shame to buy if I can make my own!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

fjm said:


> Talking of Winter nose, does anyone have any recipes for home made remedies? I am surrounded by acres of nettles and elder bushes - seems a shame to buy if I can make my own!


I don't, but I would be very interested to know!

I know Gypsy Wort is a black dye that stains skin... it was used on Humans, so I am pretty sure it is safe...

BUT! I would do some more research to see if it is first


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jak said:


> We did not say Winter nose did not exist, just that it is poor pigment.


I know what was said, and I guess like I said, that it is coincidence then that my pups in warmer climates either do not get it at all or barely get it, and the pups in harsher climates get it worse. And I reiterate that I do not agree that it is bad pigment and the noses are never really black at all.

Six weeks old...look black to me...


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I know what was said, and I guess like I said, that it is coincidence then that my pups in warmer climates either do not get it at all or barely get it, and the pups in harsher climates get it worse. And I reiterate that I do not agree that it is bad pigment and the noses are never really black at all.
> 
> Six weeks old...look black to me...


In a litter there can be variance in pigmentation

Saffy at 8 Weeks (possibly more.. IDK)










Saffy now:











Saffy's brother (taken April this year):












I know Saffy lost her pigment before 3 1/2 years some time.


Take a dog like Bindi...
she lives in a harsher climate, and she does not have Winter Nose.


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## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

I am sure there are many cases of bad pigment, but not every case. Why would a dog get winter nose in some winters, but in other winters not? One form of winter nose is actually nose chapping causes by wind burn...like your lips. The skin turns pink as it heals. It happens also when the dog rubs its nose on the crate. You can't paint them all with a brush saying it is bad pigment.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I know what was said, and I guess like I said, that it is coincidence then that my pups in warmer climates either do not get it at all or barely get it, and the pups in harsher climates get it worse. And I reiterate that I do not agree that it is bad pigment and the noses are never really black at all.
> 
> Six weeks old...look black to me...


I think we need to make a distinction between liver pigment (incorrect pigment on a White/Cream/Red etc) and winter/snow nose which is poor or fading pigment.

Every dog I've ever seen with winter nose had black pigment as a puppy but at some point the pigment started to fade and was lost. My Izze had a winter nose (absolutely hated this). She started to lose her pigment around the time she turned a year old. You can see from the pictures below that she had a black nose as a young puppy. 

Izze's mother Sabrina comes from a line with fabulous pigment that holds. Izze's sire though, comes from a line where winter noses are common. Izze's littermate Taylor has excellent holding black pigment, so you can have both types in a litter. Based on this, I'm guessing that winter noses are a genetic trait. I have noticed in my two litters that had whites that the puppies born with black pigment held their pigment while the puppy (Izze) who was born with a pink nose that colored up, eventually lost her pigment.

Pictures below of Izze, Taylor age two and a picture of them as young puppies.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

You guys are making me feel neurotic about my dog's nose. He is still perfect in my eyes, and so is Saffy and every other dog on here with faded nose pigment, regardless of the cause. 

But I do understand cbrand's point about breeders needing to be vigilant to correct it within their own breeding program.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have yet to see a red pup or hear of a red pup born with a black nose. They are all born pink then begin to dusk up at about three days of age if they are going to turn black.I have heard that some end up red and some turn liver, but even the pups whose noses end up black start out pink. Maybe it is different with the reds. I have seen blacks, whites, silvers and reds born and of all of the pups I have seen born, the only pups whose nose is pink then turns black are the reds.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

jak said:


> I don't, but I would be very interested to know!
> 
> I know Gypsy Wort is a black dye that stains skin... it was used on Humans, so I am pretty sure it is safe...
> 
> BUT! I would do some more research to see if it is first


I've been given some ideas for a recipe containing nettles and elderberries on another foruam, so will check with my vet, and maybe give it a try in the autumn. I'll let you know how I get on - and if it has any effect.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

jak said:


> Take a dog like Bindi...
> she lives in a harsher climate, and she does not have Winter Nose.



Take note on saffys skin color its pink then look at her brother skin color grey 

Enzo should have winter nose then Cherie if you think its because of lack of vitamin D...... We dont have a yard and Enzo goes out only when the sun is rising and setting and its just to potty .... we let him play at NIGHT ! because thats when i get home from work .....

Enzo is inside more than your dogs and his nose is JET black and I am positive he is lacking vitamin D .... 

Its just poor pigment , its not the END of the world you breed away from it.

Just think about it If someone buys a red "show" dog from you they can't show it in the winter because it will have a liver colored looking nose. Do you really think the judges would like that ? NO they won't and that would suck for someone to only show in the "summer" :wacko:

I will say it again bindi lives in snow so I used her as an example on how she has no winter nose just like Enzo and bindi probably goes out side more than Enzo lol 

I agree with cbrand I said liver as in the color it looks like that not saying the dogs have a liver nose. But it does not look appealing to me at all. Even though the standard allows apricots to have liver nose I would never show one nor buy one knowing its nose will turn winter nose....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Take note on saffys skin color its pink then look at her brother skin color grey
> 
> Enzo should have winter nose then Cherie if you think its because of lack of vitamin D...... We dont have a yard and Enzo goes out only when the sun is rising and setting and its just to potty .... we let him play at NIGHT ! because thats when i get home from work .....
> 
> ...


Someone HAS bought a show dog from me and she DOES live in harsh winter conditions. A non black nose is not a fault in a red, (not desireable but acceptable) so I guess it would depend what else a judge sees in a dog. Or you give it fish oil or vitamin D before it begins to lose colour in the winter months and try to prevent winter nose in the first place.

Breeding away from it is easy enough done by bringing black into a breeding program or breeding to dogs whose pedigree is made up of dogs with only black pigment. That is not a problem for me because of whom I plan to breed to and bringing Quincy on the scene, so our future pups likely will not suffer from winter nose at all, but I still do not believe it is bad pigment because of what I have seen in my own puppies. It is not a coincidence that the ones who are less likely to suffer from it are all in better, warmer winter conditions.

Do you keep all of your curtains drawn and blinds pulled down when you are at work or school? Enzo is still exposed to sunlight even though he is not outside in the sun.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> I agree.
> 'winter nose' is just varying degrees of poor pigment... True black pigment stays black throughout winter without fading. My terrier has had a black nose since she was a pup, she's now 11 and her nose is still as black as it ever was and it never fades in winter or gets darker in summer; it's truely black pigment, there is no variation of it!
> 
> If it fades in winter, especially if it's quite noticable and as a young dog, it's not what I'd call good pigment.


That's the same with our PWD Sam. He had about the best pigment of any of our dogs, and it was jet black no matter the season (and we get both extreme heat and cold).

I've never actually heard of winter nose before. Is this something unique to poodles or across breeds?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> That's the same with our PWD Sam. He had about the best pigment of any of our dogs, and it was jet black no matter the season (and we get both extreme heat and cold).
> 
> I've never actually heard of winter nose before. Is this something unique to poodles or across breeds?


I have seen it in Huskies and Samoyeds too. Hadn't really thought about it so do not know if there are many other breeds who get it. I would think with PWD's as well as Black Poos, and silver Poos, there is no real variance in the colour of pigment-period. So it will stay black no matter what and no matter what the conditions.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> I've never actually heard of winter nose before. Is this something unique to poodles or across breeds?


Big problem in Goldens. Many handlers paint their dog's noses for the ring, but that just passes the problem along. Seems to be harder and harder to find a Golden with pigment that holds.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Someone HAS bought a show dog from me and she DOES live in harsh winter conditions. A non black nose is not a fault in a red, (not desireable but acceptable) so I guess it would depend what else a judge sees in a dog. Or you give it fish oil or vitamin D before it begins to lose colour in the winter months and try to prevent winter nose in the first place.
> 
> Breeding away from it is easy enough done by bringing black into a breeding program or breeding to dogs whose pedigree is made up of dogs with only black pigment. That is not a problem for me because of whom I plan to breed to and bringing Quincy on the scene, so our future pups likely will not suffer from winter nose at all, but I still do not believe it is bad pigment because of what I have seen in my own puppies. It is not a coincidence that the ones who are less likely to suffer from it are all in better, warmer winter conditions.
> 
> Do you keep all of your curtains drawn and blinds pulled down when you are at work or school? Enzo is still exposed to sunlight even though he is not outside in the sun.


"Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."

It does not say reds can have liver noses ?
Why breed for some thing not desired ?


I live in apt that is facing north south .... no sun comes in here why do you think I have lights on my hibiscus for ? LOL

You have windows too and a yard so I don't see how enzo gets more sun than your dogs :/


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Cdnjennga said:


> That's the same with our PWD Sam. He had about the best pigment of any of our dogs, and it was jet black no matter the season (and we get both extreme heat and cold).
> 
> I've never actually heard of winter nose before. Is this something unique to poodles or across breeds?


Some other breeds get it too and most breeders do not want to breed for it but away from it. 

Some more examples of breeds that can have poor pigment are , White German shepherds , White apbt's ( this is why their standard says no pink eye rims or noses) , american eskimo dogs , white poms etc.......


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> "Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."
> 
> It does not say reds can have liver noses ?
> Why breed for some thing not desired ?
> ...


Who is breeding FOR it? Even breeders whose dogs indeed have bad pigment and not just winter nose surely are not doing it on purpose. Why would they do that?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I was not on the forum for eons so I just "skimmed" through some threads .

I will just put some facts here hoping that they might be helpful.

1) Pigmentation of the skin and eyes in all living things is regulated by genetics and there is a huge variation in possible phenotypes - just look at the human population. 

2) same as with good and bad "black" in the poodle hair - there are "good and bad" pigmentation of the other parts of a dog

3) Pigmentation of the skin is determined by number of melanocytes - melanin
producing cells in the skin and also by AMOUNT of the melanin in each individual cell

4) both regulated by genetics

5) darkening under the sun means only increased production of melanin - how much - again regulated by genetics. So - if an individual has better production capability it tans better since that individual has more melanocytes and MORE pigment forming abilities. 

6) Melanin production is in NO correlation with vitamin D

7) Melanin is produced like this :

The first step of the biosynthetic pathway for both eumelanins and pheomelanins is catalysed by tyrosinase:
Tyrosine → DOPA → dopaquinone
Dopaquinone can combine with cysteine by two pathways to benzothiazines and pheomelanins
Dopaquinone + cysteine → 5-S-cysteinyldopa → benzothiazine intermediate → pheomelanin
Dopaquinone + cysteine → 2-S-cysteinyldopa → benzothiazine intermediate → pheomelanin
Alternatively, dopaquinone can be converted to leucodopachrome and follow two more pathways to the eumelanins
Dopaquinone → leucodopachrome → dopachrome → 5,6-dihydroxyindole-2-carboxylic acid → quinone → eumelanin
Dopaquinone → leucodopachrome → dopachrome → 5,6-dihydroxyindole → quinone → eumelanin
Microscopic appearance

8) For the production of vit D we need UV radiation 

9) People with very dark skin can actually become vit D deficient since melanin BLOCKS UV radiation

10) Vit D supplementation is necessary if body does not produce enough on it's own and production is effected by UV exposure but as well as by correct function of the kidneys and many MANY enzymes and hormones in the body

11) With age both pathways go down and also some people genetically have some glitches that prevent good production of vit D

All in all - loss of the nose pigment during the winter is result of not enough melanocytes and melanin in the nose which are both result of genetics. Sun tanning can increase amount of melanin in the nose, and make it look darker, but if it fades, than it did not have enough NATURAL pigmentation to begin with.

Vit D suplementation will not make ANY difference in nose pigmentation since it is not ,in any shape or form, included in pigment production. If anybody wants to supplement - than extra Tyrosine could possible help since melanin is produced from tyrosine as a starting point.

Hope it cleared some confusion here ...


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Well said Wishpoo 

Haven't seen you for ages


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Marian said:


> You guys are making me feel neurotic about my dog's nose. He is still perfect in my eyes, and so is Saffy and every other dog on here with faded nose pigment, regardless of the cause.
> 
> But I do understand cbrand's point about breeders needing to be vigilant to correct it within their own breeding program.


Bailey's nose is very faded (he's now 11). (Maltese are supposed to have black points, per the breed standard.) I don't really think about it much. He's adopted and it's obvious his breeder (whoever/where ever they are) had no interest breeding responsibly. Even if I had the option, I wouldn't have bred him. I think this is an issue for those breeding and possible those looking for a dog. I have to say it's not a huge priority, when it comes to my new puppy. Health, temperment and structure, even color and gender are much more important to me. It's good to know that if the relatives don't have the best pigment, neither will my pup. It's good to know which breeders are interested in breeding away from it and which seem to be indifferent.

Great post Wishpoo!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Someone HAS bought a show dog from me and she DOES live in harsh winter conditions. A non black nose is not a fault in a red, (not desireable but acceptable) so I guess it would depend what else a judge sees in a dog. Or you give it fish oil or vitamin D before it begins to lose colour in the winter months and try to prevent winter nose in the first place.
> 
> *Breeding away from it is easy enough done by bringing black into a breeding program or breeding to dogs whose pedigree is made up of dogs with only black pigment. That is not a problem for me because of whom I plan to breed to and bringing Quincy on the scene, so our future pups likely will not suffer from winter nose at all, but I still do not believe it is bad pigment because of what I have seen in my own puppies.* It is not a coincidence that the ones who are less likely to suffer from it are all in better, warmer winter conditions.
> 
> Do you keep all of your curtains drawn and blinds pulled down when you are at work or school? Enzo is still exposed to sunlight even though he is not outside in the sun.


I'm just curious how you can say it's easy when you haven't tested this theory yet. It sounded like a good idea to me, when Roxy first suggested it. But until it's actually been put it into practice, I don't think it can be called easy. As I remember, the thought is that there wouldn't be a good chance of *red* puppies w/ good pigment in the first generation anyway.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Who is breeding FOR it? Even breeders whose dogs indeed have bad pigment and not just winter nose surely are not doing it on purpose. Why would they do that?


Well you have been breeding for 5 years right ? You keep saying its just winter nose so it seems like you are comfortable with that pigment.......hwell:

I see that you will be breeding Holly to Dugan again so how is that breeding away from it ? I would invest in some stud service by now if your not getting a desired pigment.....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

double post


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> "Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog."


I wonder why its standard although not desired/preferred to have fading pigment or winter nose? 

I agree with breeding away from it if it is genetic. Has it been deemed genetic? 

We know Olie was bred badly - I have honestly never seen a spoo nose as PINK as his and am curious about this. Also I have noticed his nose darkening in the sun this summer so far, wonder what the chance is in it staying this way? hwell:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Olie said:


> I wonder why its standard although not desired/preferred to have fading pigment or winter nose?
> 
> I agree with breeding away from it if it is genetic. Has it been deemed genetic?
> 
> We know Olie was bred badly - I have honestly never seen a spoo nose as PINK as his and am curious about this. Also I have noticed his nose darkening in the sun this summer so far, wonder what the chance is in it staying this way? hwell:


The standard says that because some colors like apricots can also come with liver noses or noses close to the coat color. I guess back then when it was written a lot of apricots had this and they did not want to get rid of a gene pool because of it. Today most apricots have black noses and the ones that don't are rarely show not unless the dog is like outstanding. 

It is genetic because not every dog has winter nose .....


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Romeo started out with jet black nose, black eyeliner and halos around the eyes, full jet black pigment around his lips. By the time he was around 18 months, his nose lost most of his pigment, but he still has full jet black pigment around his lips, black eyeliner and black/brown halos around his eyes. The nose pigment never came back and doesn't darken in the summer. That's ok, I love him just the way he is.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Speaking of winter nose... A Jack Russel Terrier came in the clinic today with a bad case of winter nose and him being a show dog, the owner was getting a referral to another clinic for tattooing.
I had never thought of this. We have a tattoo punch at our clinic with green ink but another clinic near us has the real tattoo gun (the human one). They usually use it to tattoo numbers on dogs but they also tattoo noses. 
They just put the dog under anesthetic, tattoo the whole nose with black ink, wake the dog up, and there you go. No more winter nose.
Is this cheating? I'm guessing a dog with a black nose would fare better in the show ring... hwell:

I wish I had some before and after pics... I've never seen it done.


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## Dante's Mom (Apr 14, 2010)

Omg, I'm sorry but that just sounds cruel to me! That poor nose would swell up, be quite uncomfortable and scab over, not to mention the itching as it heals.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Salukie said:


> No more winter nose.
> Is this cheating?


Uh.... yes. It is cheating. Most people just paint the nose for the ring. Remember, though. You can can paint/tatoo a nose for the ring and finish a dog, but it will come back to bite you in the whelping box!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Oh, gosh! That sounds horribly painful and unnecessary. And, Cbrand is so right; it will definitely come back to bite you in the whelping box. 
_


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I wonder why Olies is doing the opposite though? Maybe tanning his nose


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Dante's Mom said:


> Omg, I'm sorry but that just sounds cruel to me! That poor nose would swell up, be quite uncomfortable and scab over, not to mention the itching as it heals.


Where did you get that info? Not one tattoo I've had has swelled or scabbed over. Those that do are poorly done or not taken care of after the fact. I doubt a dog would be any different, though I do consider it cheating and would never put a dog through that.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Where did you get that info? Not one tattoo I've had has swelled or scabbed over. Those that do are poorly done or not taken care of after the fact. I doubt a dog would be any different, though I do consider it cheating and would never put a dog through that.


if a tattoo doesn't have the proper bandaging and ointment it bleeds, swells, then scabs
I can't imagine you'd be able to cover the dogs WHOLE nose to keep it from scabbing and in the event you don't bandage it theres the question about ointment I use A&D on all mine...but I'm a human and have no desire to lick something off me
if you tattooed a dogs nose I'm certain that it would scab over and be painful

and on the cheating, I don't think the people who would go to that extreme would really care to much whether the pups had the same problem


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> if a tattoo doesn't have the proper bandaging and ointment it bleeds, swells, then scabs
> I can't imagine you'd be able to cover the dogs WHOLE nose to keep it from scabbing and in the event you don't bandage it theres the question about ointment I use A&D on all mine...but I'm a human and have no desire to lick something off me
> if you tattooed a dogs nose I'm certain that it would scab over and be painful
> 
> and on the cheating, I don't think the people who would go to that extreme would really care to much whether the pups had the same problem


I heard many people tatooing their dogs nose for show. I also never seen people bleed or scab from a tat either ( maybe if they when to some beginner tat artist lol) my whole family is tatted up even my mom has one and her's did not scab nor bleed ....... My cousin does tat he has a shop too. hwell:


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Wow.. tattooing the nose? That's a new one.. I do not approve..


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## puppylove (Aug 9, 2009)

Could this be why people still go to BYBs? Even so called responsible breeders (who show, health test, use best whelping and socialization practices) cannot be counted on to honestly represent breeding dogs. If champions are winning with bad color, bad pigment, bad tails, or bad anything because it can be covered up in some way what really makes them a better dog than those of Breeder Bob down the street who loves his dogs and over the years has consistently produced puppies that people have been happy with - at a fraction of the cost?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

puppylove said:


> Could this be why people still go to BYBs? Even so called responsible breeders (who show, health test, use best whelping and socialization practices) cannot be counted on to honestly represent breeding dogs. If champions are winning with bad color, bad pigment, bad tails, or bad anything because it can be covered up in some way what really makes them a better dog than those of Breeder Bob down the street who loves his dogs and over the years has consistently produced puppies that people have been happy with - at a fraction of the cost?


Of course it is. And until people realize there is no such thing as a perfect dog, or a perfect pedigree or a "perfect" breeder and continue to pressure, and are nasty when they see something may not personally like they don't to like in a dog who is being bred, or give breeders a chance to improve what they are breeding, you are going to see cheaters and people who doctor their photos, dye their dogs, enhance their photos, colour their noses...etc., etc.

I mean...we have seen two of the top breeders in Canada being slammed on this forum for nothing- something that is either common practice, or for a problem that remedied itself. If THEY can get slammed for not being "perfect" and they are top show breeders who win and win and win and produce exsquisite puppies...well...it is pretty scary.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

puppylove said:


> Could this be why people still go to BYBs? Even so called responsible breeders (who show, health test, use best whelping and socialization practices) cannot be counted on to honestly represent breeding dogs. If champions are winning with bad color, bad pigment, bad tails, or bad anything because it can be covered up in some way what really makes them a better dog than those of Breeder Bob down the street who loves his dogs and over the years has consistently produced puppies that people have been happy with - at a fraction of the cost?


Show breeders who alter their dogs to win at any cost are no better than a BYB. Both don't have the future of the breed in mind. Neither is breeding for the betterment of the breed. We can only hope that buyers will educate themselves and drive the market for better bred dogs.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

puppylove said:


> Could this be why people still go to BYBs? Even so called responsible breeders (who show, health test, use best whelping and socialization practices) cannot be counted on to honestly represent breeding dogs. If champions are winning with bad color, bad pigment, bad tails, or bad anything because it can be covered up in some way what really makes them a better dog than those of Breeder Bob down the street who loves his dogs and over the years has consistently produced puppies that people have been happy with - at a fraction of the cost?


usually the people who buy from bob down the street just don't know enough to care... I highly doubt its because they found out some breeder cheated. IMO the another reason why people go to BYB is local and usually cheaper...

I also think that people need to stop lumping all show breeders as CHEATERS not all of them are like this and to put this negative stigma on them is wrong.



> Of course it is. And until people realize there is no such thing as a perfect dog, or a perfect pedigree or a "perfect" breeder and continue to pressure, and are nasty when they see something they don't to like in a dog who is being bred, or give breeders a chance to improve what they are breeding, you are going to see cheaters and people who doctor their photos, dye their dogs, enhance their photos, colour their noses...etc., etc.


I think people know there is no such thing as a perfect dog.... These people want to just finish a dog and don't care if they cheat. I don't think anyone is pressuring someone to breed better. If a breeder is kennel blind then IMO you have no business breeding period. If you see black nosed dogs in the ring breed for that , at least if you do that your dogs will be better than the cheaters dog, because when you have pups black noses will be there and not some pink noses. You wouldn't have to dye for the shows ......therefore no cheating .... 

Its not really a mystery either ( dyed dogs gay tails etc... ) if you do your research you can get all honest answers from a breeder. Go to the breeders house and LOOK at their dogs in person you can get your answers that way too.

When I see a dog with questionable pigment I just start googling that line ... Google is a great tool , you can also find other breeders with that line and ask them about any thing. 

Ironically at the last show I went to I saw a dog with questionable pigment ! the dog had pinkish eye rims and a black nose along with grey skin and pink skin ( grey big patches on the dog) I can probably find if the dog had a colored nose or not by asking and googling lol


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Show breeders who alter their dogs to win at any cost are no better than a BYB. Both don't have the future of the breed in mind. Neither is breeding for the betterment of the breed. We can only hope that buyers will educate themselves and drive the market for better bred dogs.


IA 100% 

The ones that cheat are the ones to stay away from again you can find out if you spend time researching instead of jumping the gun to just buy the puppy because its cute .......

I spend a great deal of time researching before I buy... I am picky and I have a list I look for when finding a breeder. I could care less about their available puppies I am more interested in their brood bitches and sires. If I like what i see from the sires and dams then I look at passed pups and people who bought from them or have the same bloodline etc...


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## Dante's Mom (Apr 14, 2010)

Harley_chik said:


> Where did you get that info? Not one tattoo I've had has swelled or scabbed over. Those that do are poorly done or not taken care of after the fact. I doubt a dog would be any different, though I do consider it cheating and would never put a dog through that.





Keithsomething said:


> if a tattoo doesn't have the proper bandaging and ointment it bleeds, swells, then scabs
> I can't imagine you'd be able to cover the dogs WHOLE nose to keep it from scabbing and in the event you don't bandage it theres the question about ointment I use A&D on all mine...but I'm a human and have no desire to lick something off me
> if you tattooed a dogs nose I'm certain that it would scab over and be painful
> 
> and on the cheating, I don't think the people who would go to that extreme would really care to much whether the pups had the same problem





roxy25 said:


> I heard many people tatooing their dogs nose for show. I also never seen people bleed or scab from a tat either ( maybe if they when to some beginner tat artist lol) my whole family is tatted up even my mom has one and her's did not scab nor bleed ....... My cousin does tat he has a shop too. hwell:



:noidea: Both of mine very lightly scabbed over. Neither were done by a beginner. Maybe it's just my skin or something. I know I took very good care during the healing. Anyway... I'm getting off topic here.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i am a colorful woman. lots of tattoos and i've never covered one except to get home from the tattoist studio.
then i wash it and keep a VERY light coating of a tattoo balm i make on it as it heals.
you do not want it to dry out, but not be overly moist either.

this is for humans. no tattooing puppers for me.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

puppylove said:


> Could this be why people still go to BYBs? Even so called responsible breeders (who show, health test, use best whelping and socialization practices) cannot be counted on to honestly represent breeding dogs. If champions are winning with bad color, bad pigment, bad tails, or bad anything because it can be covered up in some way what really makes them a better dog than those of Breeder Bob down the street who loves his dogs and over the years has consistently produced puppies that people have been happy with - at a fraction of the cost?


People go to BYBs b/c they don't know any better, don't have any patience, a reputable breeder would not sell them a dog and/or they want a cheap dog. Using isolated cases of cheating to paint an entire group of breeders as unethical, is just as wrong as cheating IMO. To me at least, pigment is superficial. Tattooing or covering bad pigment doesn't improve a dogs movement, structure, conditioning, health or temperment. Pigment is one of many things that judges look at to decide who the better dog is that day. 

Again I say, I've never had a tattoo bleed or scab. I've covered them to come home from the shop b/c some of the ink "bleeds." After that I keep them clean and cover them w/ A&D. A&D is nothing more that vitamin A and vitamin D in ointment form. I have no idea how it would taste, but it would not be harmful. Again, I don't agree w/ tattooing a dog for that reason at all, but I don't agree w/ making into something it's not either. (bleeding, scabbing and swelling) To be honest the only people who know how it truly affects a dog are those who have it done.


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## Dante's Mom (Apr 14, 2010)

Harley_chik said:


> People go to BYBs b/c they don't know any better, don't have any patience, a reputable breeder would not sell them a dog and/or they want a cheap dog.
> I agree.
> Using isolated cases of cheating to paint an entire group of breeders as unethical, is just as wrong as cheating IMO. To me at least, pigment is superficial. Tattooing or covering bad pigment doesn't improve a dogs movement, structure, conditioning, health or temperment. Pigment is one of many things that judges look at to decide who the better dog is that day.
> 
> Again I say, I've never had a tattoo bleed or scab. I've covered them to come home from the shop b/c some of the ink "bleeds." After that I keep them clean and cover them w/ A&D. A&D is nothing more that vitamin A and vitamin D in ointment form. I have no idea how it would taste, but it would not be harmful. Again, I don't agree w/ tattooing a dog for that reason at all, but I don't agree w/ making into something it's not either. (bleeding, scabbing and swelling) To be honest the only people who know how it truly affects a dog are those who have it done.



I honestly have no idea how it would affect a dog's nose. I am only assuming that since it is such a sensitive area for a dog, it might swell or scab. And either way, I think it would be wrong to do so for any reason.

I am not a breeder, groomer, show handler, or any sort of expert whatsoever; I'm just here because I love talking about and learning all things poodle. FWIW, If I were a show person, my personal ethics would be against dyeing, creative grooming(to hide flaws), or any other questionable practices to get a dog to win. I dunno if I am too naive or what have you. I just feel that to me it would only be a real win if I won because I truly had the best dog, not because I was better at creatively hiding anthing.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Yes - it is absolutely wrong to lump up all show breeders in the same category !!!

Some lie and cheat, some are honest and wonderful human beings that have to deal with the "first kind" on daily bases themselves and I take my hat off to those since if it drives me nuts as a pet-buyer,I can only imagine how horrible one feels when one produces a litter and discoveries that Stud's full littermate has an Addison's and was not informed about it , or something like that :fish:

I do not care how many Champions are in the kennel - if I find out that breeder is hiding stuff, he/she is no better to me than any BYB . Actually, I found recently that some BYBs are VERY honest and strait-forward !!! " Did you have eyes checked? " "No..." LOL Unlike : " Do you have a recent eye exam ?" "Yes!" "Emmm... it is not listed at official OFA site !" "Well...no...I mean...I never sent it " " Do you have a copy that I can see?" "Emmm... I have it somewhere, I have to dig , but it was done." "I would really like to see it !" "Eh... how about you fill in puppy questionary ... I will try to find it". Ten days later copy of a complete different dog comes in :wacko: I mean, what do you do at that point ???????????????????????????? Go to another breeder right !!!!??? " Hi, I wonder if you did all basic health tests?"
"Yes ... all done : )) " " Emm... only hips are listed and eyes from 2006 are listed on the official OFA site ?" "oh, Dam has all clear , and is clear of SA by parentage and here is a link about me " and I get some newspaper article - so the massage is - who are you to question my breeding practices LMAO OOOOOKKKKK !!!!!!! Now what ? Go to third one .... Should I continue :doh:

BYBs RULE man LMAO You get what you pay for and for what you see and what you choose to have LOL and with a calculated risk that is obviously there anyway ; ))) 

If I had 2,500 -3,000 $ - I know where I would go , but still waiting for that damn LOTTO ticket to score : )))) ! 


We learn as long as we live , I guess .


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Again I say, I've never had a tattoo bleed or scab. I've covered them to come home from the shop b/c some of the ink "bleeds." After that I keep them clean and cover them w/ A&D. A&D is nothing more that vitamin A and vitamin D in ointment form. I have no idea how it would taste, but it would not be harmful. Again, I don't agree w/ tattooing a dog for that reason at all, but I don't agree w/ making into something it's not either. (bleeding, scabbing and swelling) To be honest the only people who know how it truly affects a dog are those who have it done.


You're wrong though...its not making it something its not
if you tattooed something and you couldn't bandage it or put ointment on it ((because a dog would lick it off)) it would swell, bleed and scab...ask ANY tattoo artist ((or read the paper they give you after its done...)) I know the man who has done my MANY MANY MANY tattoos ((15)) beats aftercare into my head, and his 25 years in the business makes him far from a beginner 

I'm not even mentioning infection that can be caused by the thing not being properly taken care of >.<

and I'd like to also add...that I never said it would be harmful for the dog to lick the ointment I was saying that it would be impossible to keep the ointment on it because of the constant licking the dog would do


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Why is My Dog's Nose Turning Pink
Home > Pets > Dogs > Articles > Why is My Dog's Nose Turning Pink

image of a boxerPigmentation in a dog’s nose is determined by genetic factors, just the same as hair color. Depending on the breed, the dog’s nose may be black, pink, liver colored, or self colored (same color as coat). But, what does it mean if your dog’s nose changes color? If your dog’s nose is turning pink, specifically turning from black to pink, there could be many causes for the loss of pigmentation. Sometimes the change indicates a medical condition, and other times, a dog nose turning pink is a completely natural part of aging.

The most common cause of a fading nose is called “snow nose” or “winter nose,” because the dog’s nose will fade to pink or white during the winter months, and return to black once summer arrives. Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Bernese Mountain dogs, and Siberian Huskies have this seasonal variation in the color of the nasal planum. Some dogs within these breeds, and even dogs of other breeds, have noses that change from black to brown or pink as the animal ages. The cause is thought to be a breakdown of a certain enzyme called tyrosinase, which is responsible for producing pigment. Apparently, the enzyme becomes less efficient as the dog ages, causing the nose to fade from black to brown or pink. Tyrosinase is also temperature sensitive; it works more effectively in warmer weather, which explains the fading of the nose during winter months. While a dog with a completely pink nose (also known as a Dudley nose), can be disqualified from the show ring (depends on breed), dogs with originally black noses that fade to pink are still allowed to be shown.

Physical ailments and medical conditions may also cause a dog’s nose to fade from black to pink. Sometimes, the dog will lose pigment due to an illness or trauma, and then recover the pigment once healed. If your dog’s nose is scraped or suffers abrasion, it will usually turn pink as it heals, then to black once the scabs are gone. Contact dermatitis can also cause loss of pigmentation in the nose. Certain dogs are sensitive to plastics in food dishes, and the continual irritation will cause the nose to turn pink; the lips will also become inflamed. Switching to stainless steel food and water bowls will eliminate the possibility that your dog is suffering from contact dermatitis.

Vitiligo is an immune disease in dogs that will cause a pink nose, but dogs with vitiligo will commonly have white patches or hairs throughout the rest of their bodies. In animals with vitiligo, antibodies are formed against pigment-containing cells that are responsible for nose color. The antibodies destroy these cells, resulting in loss of color. A veterinarian can do a biopsy to confirm this diagnosis. Certain breeds are at greater risk for this disease, such as Doberman Pinschers, German Shepherds, Rottweilers, and Dachsunds. While the dog’s health is not adversely affected by this disease, nutritional supplements may help to restore the dog’s pigment.

If you have a dog with a pink nose, make sure that you protect him in the summer by applying sunscreen to avoid painful sunburn. While a black or brown nose is safe, a pink nose will burn and may blister if the sun damage is severe. Pink noses are accordingly more at risk for the development of cancer. In some cases, an owner can choose to have his dog’s nose tattooed with black ink to protect it from the sun. This practice is more common in dogs such as the Collie who will get nasty ulcerations from sun exposure.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: I have noooo idea of how ink can have protective effect for the skin @@, so lets take it with a grain of salt 

Just thought this was interesting article ....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> You're wrong though...its not making it something its not
> if you tattooed something and you couldn't bandage it or put ointment on it ((because a dog would lick it off)) it would swell, bleed and scab...ask ANY tattoo artist ((or read the paper they give you after its done...)) I know the man who has done my MANY MANY MANY tattoos ((15)) beats aftercare into my head, and his 25 years in the business makes him far from a beginner
> 
> I'm not even mentioning infection that can be caused by the thing not being properly taken care of >.<
> ...



you do realize dog and human skin are not the same .... I will just leave it at that


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Blahhhhhhhh
>.<


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> ...obviously
> 
> being condescending isn't very lady like...and I'll just leave it at that


I don't care if its lady like or not lol ( I am glad you think I care about what you have to say LMAO ) you act like dog skin is like the same as humans. A dogs nose has thicker skin have you every seen a dogs nose tattooed and scam and bleed ?

I no I haven't so I can't comment on it.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> PS: I have noooo idea of how ink can have protective effect for the skin @@, so lets take it with a grain of salt
> 
> Just thought this was interesting article ....


I have no clue either and I love how people jump in and compare human tats to the dogs nose being colored LMAO


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

Years ago when we got Rusty our first spoo the inside of his ear was tattooed with an id number before we got him. I do remember that there was green ink everywhere for a while and that there was some scabbing. Now I really don't recall if there was swelling. I also don't know when the tattoo was done. We got him at 8 weeks.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Blahhhhhhhh
>.<


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Blahhhhhhhh
>.<


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> well...seeing as you are a lady ((maybe?)) you really should try and act lady like...set an example LMAO if thats possible
> ((see I can be catty too  ))
> and I don't appreciate you almost calling me uneducated
> I'm going for a doctorate do you understand what that means or should I give you a quick run down? so I'm FAR FAR FAR FAR from unintelligent
> ...


people can still be intelligent... but not be, in some topics


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What in the name of God is going on with the people on this forum. Insults, personal attacks...is this not supposed to be a place to educate? How did we go from whether or not winter nose is bad pigment to this?

The judgemental nastiness of late is not going to do anything to better this breed. It is not going to improve things. 

I do not think tattooing a dogs nose is smart or ethical and only perpetuates a problem that may be there. But do I understand the mentality of someone would would consider it? OH YEAH!!!! The way breeders are judged on this forum makes me wonder just how much of this goes on in the general public. I have watched and watched and watched this forum to see what a specific group of members want to see in a breeder. Then, when a breeder does all of these things correctly, there is STILL nastiness said about them. If two of the top breeders in Canada can be slammed on this forum, and they win and win and win in the show ring, test their breeding dogs, produce multiple champions, DO EVERYTHING as suggested by the select few here and still get slammed, well, the rest of us do not have a hope in hell of ever being looked at as people who are trying, breeding up or doing the right thing no matter what we do. I GIVE UP!!!! This forum is going to hell in a handbasket. Is there no such thing as civility anymore?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Maybe it could be that some people know more about some breeders than other people and are just not comfortable to say it out-right here or are actually VERY nice people and try VERY hard to keep their mouth shut ; )

As I stated in my previous post in this thread - No. of Ch titled dogs is not a selling point for me personally !!! Breeding practices are !!!! As well as a treatment of future "pet" owners. If the available puppy is crappy in confirmation and I can find better looking dog in basically any BYB yard - that thanks very much for Ch Stud and a Dam *sigh...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Maybe it could be that some people know more about some breeders than other people and are just not comfortable to say it out-right here or are actually VERY nice people and try VERY hard to keep their mouth shut ; )


I don't think it has anything to do with niceness...which was just exhibited by the argument held between me...a teenager...and roxy an "adult"
so no we can't hide behind "politeness" 
doesn't cut it in this instance


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keith, may I quote you? BLAAAAAH!


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Keith - I have no idea how I was included with my comment in this "cat fight" between you and Roxi :rolffleyes:

I was talking about completely different "topic" , sorry for the confusion:smow:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I've been fighting bronchitis (again, for the 4th time in 6 months!) and I haven't been as active on the forum while I try to get my rest... I just came on this morning to find that this thread has deteriorated to the point I need to say something.

Please stick to the topic. If I feel I need to interject again because of personal attacks or offensive comments, I'll close the thread. Thank you!

Barb


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_So sorry to hear that you are unwell, Barb. Wishing you well as soon as possible. 

I'm glad that you stopped by to put a stop to the argument that erupted here. Thank you.

I did a web search on the topic of tattooing a dog's nose and found a few that addressed snow nose/collie nose in regards to the health hazards of blistering, ulceration, and even cancers. They all recommended blackening the nose with ink and tattooing. None of them addressed whether there were any after affects from the tattooing. I guess the best way to find out if there are any health issues after tattooing someone would have to consult with a person who does this type of work. 

Although this makes perfect sense for dogs who suffer from this problem to prevent pain and disease, I do not find it at all ethical to tattoo a nose simply to better a dog's chances in the breed ring. If the dog has snow nose, it is going to pass it down to at least some of its offspring._


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

The thing is, tattoo'd skin still burns! Ink is NOT protective against UV rays that cause sun burn!!! Just cos it's dark doesn't mean it'll block UV rays, and they can and will still get sunburnt.... hwell:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

That is what is confusing to me too in that article I posted :rolffleyes:hwell:!!! 

If anything black color attracts the sun and heat :rolffleyes: Melanin pigment that is naturally present in the skin cells is not "blocking" the sun physically but rather TRANSFORMS UV radiation through chemical reactions into less harmful energy and thus protects from burning and DNA damage.

In any case - altering dogs appearance to mask faults is cheating and should be really heavily penalized in the ring IMO. Turning the blind eye to "small alternations" just encourages those practices and where than one draws the line ??? I am waiting to see "hair transplants" done on bold spots and teeth implantation as well as "flap tucking" :doh:


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

okay, the layperson comes in.

tattooing a nose to win in the ring. dyeing hair to win in the ring. having a dog in a show coat where the owner & dog has to be so careful in case the hair gets damaged. hairspray out the wazoo, adding wiggles, etc.

like i said i'm a lay person, but i'd love to be able for a poodle (any size) to be shown in their more natural state ( i really love looking at the dogs w/ shorter cc so you can see their bodies!). sure some kind of cut is fine, but sheesh. dyeing, bleaching, tattooing, etc.

this is like children's beauty pageants where kids are having hair extensions and veneers on their teeth at 7.

oh and by the way, yes, bad pigment on nose would be something a breeder could work on breeding out, but i'd take a lighter nose over other traits that could be life threatening. jmo.


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