# Stupid Question...



## LizShort (Dec 21, 2015)

I am new to poodles. I have been training golden retrievers most of my 49 years. Max, my spoo, baffles me. I always thought (having helped others train their dogs (mutts, labs, shepherds, etc) as well) that training was training as what I have done in the past has worked for just about all dogs I have worked with. Do poodles think differently or is it just Max? He is just 4 months old and has almost got SIT down pat. We are working on TOUCH and etiquette. He seems to get bored very quickly so I mix in some play time as well. After the play time though, it's almost as if he never heard the word. My golden wanted to please me. Max just seems to want me to shut up LOL.

I would love any ideas at all  

THANK YOU!!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Are you teaching hand signals? I found that my puppies learned hand signals sooner and they stuck with them longer than verbal cues.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

are you using reward based training?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Maizie is the same way. Our golden will blindly obey, whereas Maizie has to stop and think about things first. Do you use treats? Do you use an excited voice? Maizie's puppy trainer had a really happy, enthusiastic voice, and that really encouraged Maizie to want to please. I try to channel that excited voice to keep Maizie interested in me, and I use treats for teaching new behaviors and occasionally reinforcing the ones she knows. Hope this helps a little


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> are you using reward based training?



Duh, I guess you can't just assume that, can you!


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## LizShort (Dec 21, 2015)

Yup on rewards (I call it bait training and my clicker is fully loaded LOL). I use LOTS and LOTS of praise as well. 

ZM, I am glad that you have experience with both and see a difference. Max does seem to think things through where Jake just did what was asked. Jake got TOUCH down in less than 20 mins. Max... it's been three days and he will do it, but it's like an act of congress. He does know his name. I guess that's something lol


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

If "yes" to patk's question...

... What are you using as rewards?

Different dogs like different rewards. Poodles are often less food-motivated than golden retrievers... but not always (Ari is very food motivated).

Take some time to do an experiment and find what your spoo really loves to eat. Cottage cheese, boiled chicken, green tripe and paté style cat food are some of Ari's favorites and are solid bets for most dogs. Treat tubes come in handy for the gooier treats on that list: The Secret to Filling a Food Tube. Put out little bits of all of the above and see which your pup eats first and with the most excitement. Introduce rich and high-fat treats with caution to avoid tummy upset!

You can also use play as a reward. Ari's absolute favorite reward is an intense game of tug for 3-5 seconds. That's also a great opportunity to practice "take it," "shake it" and "give". She also likes fetching or catching a toy.

Ari's order of favorite rewards is: tug, treat tube treats, fetch, boiled chicken/cottage cheese/soft chewy dog treats, catching toys, tripe and lastly kibble/other dry treats. The order varies based on her mood sometimes but I can solidly bet that she will be motivated by either tug or treat tube goo anywhere, any time.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

is he okay with the clicker? i've heard some dogs dislike the sound.


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## LizShort (Dec 21, 2015)

He doesn't dislike the sound of the clicker but he doesn't care about it either.

I think finding higher value treats is a good place to start. He loves loves loves popcorn. 

I am not a huge fan of bait training, but that seems to be the "in thing" in training these days. For house breaking (still having a few accidents, but I have only had him since 12/22) I use praise and I am working on conditioning him to go when asked. (with my other dogs, it made life so much easier in the mornings!!!) When I first started training, I was up after a Gordon Setter who was bait trained. When the judge said "Forward" the woman said "doggie heel" and he did. When the judge said "Halt" the woman stopped and said "doggie sit" and he sat, looked up at her for his treat and, when one was obviously not coming, he got up and walked away. Ever since, I have been leery of bait training. I know it works for some things, but I have always used praise and love more than food. I hope that makes sense...


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

makes sense to me. rewards don't necessarily mean food. but if you're using food, the theory seems to be that you wean the dog away from expecting it every time - variable reinforcement is what it's called in the literature - but generally continue to use it as part of the training process.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Most poodles are very smart and don't appreciate being drilled the way a golden or a lab or a BC might be willing to.

The agility trainer I work with doesn't actually think BCs are all that smart and she has two of them one with a MACh 4 or thereabouts. She is planning on an mpoo for her next dog. She loves Lily, has run her successfully and wants to get a smart fast dog that isn't a 20 or 24 inch jumper.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

LizShort said:


> He doesn't dislike the sound of the clicker but he doesn't care about it either.


Have you adequately "charged" the sound of the clicker so that he knows it marks a right answer and means a reward is coming? To do this, click and follow it with a treat immediately 20 or so times at the beginning of each training session for a few days. Done right, you should be seeing him perk up noticeably at the sound of the clicker.



LizShort said:


> When I first started training, I was up after a Gordon Setter who was bait trained. When the judge said "Forward" the woman said "doggie heel" and he did. When the judge said "Halt" the woman stopped and said "doggie sit" and he sat, looked up at her for his treat and, when one was obviously not coming, he got up and walked away. Ever since, I have been leery of bait training. I know it works for some things, but I have always used praise and love more than food. I hope that makes sense...


Variable/intermittent reinforcement schedules can help you wean off of food rewards (there's an app for that, believe it or not: search "Fenzi Random Reinforcement" on the Apple app store if you have an iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch). This link has some more info about
Intermittent Reward Schedules.



lily cd re said:


> Most poodles are very smart and don't appreciate being drilled the way a golden or a lab or a BC might be willing to.
> 
> The agility trainer I work with doesn't actually think BCs are all that smart and she has two of them one with a MACh 4 or thereabouts. She is planning on an mpoo for her next dog. She loves Lily, has run her successfully and wants to get a smart fast dog that isn't a 20 or 24 inch jumper.


Ari is smarter than Chaser the BC any day. :alberteinstein:

She would immensely resent being trained like Chaser was through 5-6 hours a day of drills, though. She demands a more creative, varied and exciting approach.

I don't think that BCs are all that smart, per se, but they do enjoy being drilled. A good example of the way that different dogs require a different approach.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

My spoo is totally "bait trained." The trick with this sort of training is to use the "incentive," be it food, a toy, or play, whatever, as a reward that indicates, "That. That thing that you did just now this very moment? That's the thing I want you to do!" If you do it right, including buiding in duration to the behaviors you teach and weaning the dog from constant treating, you should have no problems!

Check out my famous "100 Days of Sugarfoot" video ( http://youtu.be/I0ZDnrJcdm4 ) to see all-positive training at 100 days, and a little more recently, "Double Q's 9, 10, and 11" ( http://youtu.be/Owvxl3tJocU ) for a four-year old dog who has been trained that way all his life!

All that said, I do think Poodle intelligence is quite different from that of some of the more "obedient" breeds. Yes, Poodles seem to really "think it out" rather than blindly obey. They key is that you want them to recognize the value in doing what you want them to do. Establish that, and you have an amazing asset: a dog who tries to figure out what you want and the best way to do it!

Good luck!

--Q


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

When you say bait training, do you mean luring him into position with the treat? When you do that it easy to turn that into a hand signal, which I promise you they respond better to than verbal commands!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Are you keeping a much too slow pace? I know dog literature recommends getting one behaviour down before teaching new things but in my (limited!) experience, many Poodles can handle a few and even thrive on it. For reference, Sulo's first four weeks at two months of age consisted of:
- sit
- lay down
- down
- roll round
- come
- no lap invasions unless invited
- lap time
- foot handling
- no mugging
- bite inhibition
- let go
- no rushing in doorways
- classic conditioning for pee/poop cues
- search

Sulo doted on me from day one and has always been biddable and eager to please. While he grew up he definitely developed a bit of a lazy bone and a selective deafness and also clearly tried out ways to half-ass his tasks. What helped us was:
- me increasing verbal communication a lot
- incorporating basic tasks in play sessions even more
- shifting reward focus from treats and praise to play sessions and fired-up praise
- introducing more tasks to keep training sessions fresh
- introducing even more challenging location/distraction variables to well-learned tasks
- using more shaping to really get him braining
- introducing intimidating/'scary' (but 100% safe) challenges, eg reaching for treats in a baby bath tub, to build his confidence and his perceived value of my instructions

Labs and Poodles are definitely quite different students, hope this helps a bit.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Lots of excellent advice! I think you also have to remember that Max is very young with a short attention span, has just started a new and distractingly exciting life, and is a poodle - poodles tend to be bored by repetition! I love this approach to puppy education, based upon making the human the most wonderful, exciting thing in the puppy's world: Life Lessons For My Puppy - eileenanddogseileenanddogs

I think I would try encouraging Max to use his brain by capturing behaviours (click and treat what you want when he happens to do it naturally, and only introduce the cue when he is offering the Sit or whatever regularly), rather than cue and lure. Or if that is too time consuming, quickly fade the lure to a treat from your pocket after clicking. It sounds to me as if you have a very bright puppy who is easily bored - the trick is to keep training sufficiently fun and rewarding for him to want to go on learning, rather than it becoming a ho hum exercise worth enduring only if the treats are good enough! I sympathise - I went through something very similar with my Papillon, Sophy.


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