# Cesar Millan



## plumcrazy

I also like and respect Cesar Millan!! I do Parelli Natural Horse*man*ship with my horses and there are people who LOVE Pat Parelli (like ME!!) and there are people who can't stand to look at the guy - I believe that the more naturally you can communicate with ANY animal (dog, horse, human) the more effective you'll be! These men have spent decades, observing, comparing, noting the language of their chosen mammal and they are unarguably effective in their chosen fields.

I use Cesar methods, too, because they make sense to me AND to my pack. While I get frequent questions from friends about why their dogs are doing this, or how can they stop them from doing that, or whatever; I'm having a happy, complete relationship with my pack! The one thing that some people don't understand is that Cesar does not claim to be a dog TRAINER - he rehabilitates dogs and he teaches the HUMAN what to see, what to look for, what to do!! I like him!


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## spoospirit

_I am also a Ceasar fan. I use his methods too and they work and I don't see anything mean about it. The dog understands it and I am pack leader.

I used Clinton Anderson training with two unbroken horses and was quite happy with the results. One of them was an alpha mare at 13 years of age and was difficult but his methods worked and she ended up my to be my best off-trail horse of the three I had.
_


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## Ladybug

I haven't really looked into Ceasar... but I LOVE Parelli! I'm a convert too. I didn't used to like because I felt like he was in it to make money and not so much for the people and horses... but I now know that isn't true! Honestly if you don't have the right equipment it can make it VERY difficult to communicate effectively with your horse. The right equipment makes all the difference!!

A gal that I sold two of my miniature horses to keep them at the same boarding stable as Jillian Micheals from The Biggest Loser. I guess that Ceasar went there to tape an episode and used one of the my gals minis just for fun 

Here's the pictures she took and shared with me!




















This is her little stallion, Christopher. He is the husband of the two mares she bought from me...


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## Olie

WoW - I seen this episode!


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## plumcrazy

I saw that episode with Jillian - it was great! Her horse is GORGEOUS!! I've been following Parelli since 2005 and I will never go back!! I've had such great results with Pat's methods - especially learning about the horsenalities!! I've been to several tour stops over the years and actually spent 2 weeks down at his Florida International Study Center in the fall of 2008. It was AWESOME!


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## bigpoodleperson

I have to say that i do not like Ceaser, and i think that some of his "methods" are going to get some dog or owner seriously injured (and ive heard of some that were). 

I agree with some of his basic principles (like calm authority, more exercise, more training), but i dont like alot of his training methold (esp for aggressive dogs!). 

I am much more a Victoria Stillwell fan!!


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## plumcrazy

bigpoodleperson said:


> I have to say that i do not like Ceaser, and i think that some of his "methods" are going to get some dog or owner seriously injured (and ive heard of some that were).


That's why on every single episode of his show, there's a disclaimer that tells people to NOT ATTEMPT THESE TECHNIQUES WITHOUT CONSULTING A PROFESSIONAL... If someone who isn't familiar with dogs thinks they can watch his show and get the same results as he does (especially with aggressive dogs) they will probably get hurt... That doesn't mean his methods are flawed - it means the people who got hurt didn't 1.) listen to the disclaimer, and/or 2.) didn't employ the method correctly in the first place... IMO



bigpoodleperson said:


> I agree with some of his basic principles (like calm authority, more exercise, more training), but i dont like alot of his *training* methold (esp for aggressive dogs!).


First, Cesar never calls himself a dog trainer (although I think he could kick butt as a trainer - that's not what he advertises that he does) And, I've found, with my own pack, that calm assertive behavior is like MAGIC (of course, none of my dogs are super-alpha or aggressive at all) I've been around a lot of different dogs (I managed a humane society for 4 years) and some were aggressive - I'd have to say that my common sense made me realize that I didn't have the skills or innate ability to handle the aggressive dogs with the amount of assertive energy that Cesar uses - in most (maybe all) of the situations when we had highly aggressive dogs, they were euthanized anyway so I didn't get a lot of experience with really bad aggression. 



bigpoodleperson said:


> I am much more a Victoria Stillwell fan!!


I like "It's Me or the Dog", too. Victoria does a little more on the actual dog TRAINING side than Cesar does - it's not exactly the same thing, but equally as entertaining!!

I'm just glad there are these shows out there so that people learn that there are ways to get help with fixable issues with their pets - I also watch a lot of the Animal Cops shows on Animal Planet - It brings back a lot of memories from my shelter days. Even in our small city of Bismarck, ND, we had our share of animal neglect, abuse, abandonment. I like watching the stories where the abuser actually gets prosecuted and gets fines/jail time!! I just read a news story that said North Dakota is ranked as the WORST state for animal rights.  It's because we're SOOOO rural and agricultural and our legislators aren't willing to pass animal protection laws just in case they'd offend the farmers. :fish:


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## cowpony

I think a really top notch trainer can use a number of different methods and get good results. The reason they are a top notch trainer is because they have a level of perceptiveness and a sense of timing the rest of us don't. My question is, what happens when a mere mortal like me tries to use a big name trainer's techniques without having the BNT's god given natural instincts? Do these techniques put you in a position where you or your animal can get hurt if you misread the situation and screw up?

I think a lot of people feel both Millan and Parelli fail the safe-for-idiots test. Someone with above average animal savvy can practice the techniques with good results. Unfortunately, truly incompetent people tend not to recognize they're in over their head. Misjudging the animal you are handling - whether you are riding an insufficiently trained horse with a halter and two lead ropes, or trying an alpha roll on a dog with fear aggression issues - is going to get you hurt and set back the animal's training.


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## Marian

What plumcrazy said.


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## *heather*

I'm a big Cesar fan.. love the pics with Jillian, haven't seen that episode yet! I thought I'd seen them all!! We've pretty much used all Cesar's methods with Rogan and it's working out great  He's a very easy dog to train IMO... or is it the way we're training him, makes it easy for him to understand us? who knows


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## highhorse

I think Cesar's basic methods are OK but as another forum member said "not idiot proof". He gets ridiculed here in England for using "Shh" as a sound to distract dogs from doing something he does not want. What they don't remember is that he said that sound was what his mother made when she disapproved of what he did as a boy. You can use any sound or word, so long as you are consistent. I especially like the 1-10 level of aggression/noise etc. I have toy poodles and one in particular is aggressive on the lead when strange dogs approach. If you don't catch her at 1, then you have lost the battle as she winds herself up big style. Having said the above, I use some methods of Victoria Stillwell and any other trainer that I think shows some common sense.

Going on to Pat Parrelli, a friend in America gave me a book and a video tape of Pat when he first came to the notice of the general public - about 11 years ago, as I was backing my young horse at the time. He was a real cowboy then and very tongue tied but full of super information. I used the 7 games on Dennis and a nicer horse you couldn't wish for. I'm 4ft10" and he is 16.2hh so he has to be good for me to handle. Pat also gives us ways to be with our horses without having to ride. Here in England at the moment, the horses have been standing in the stables for 5 weeks as the snow and ice have prevented them even getting to the fields.


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## Marian

I think what most people fail to realise is that Cesar's methods are more about training people and breaking bad habits that we fall into to the detriment of our animals. It really isn't about training the dog--it's about undoing years of damage caused by humans.


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## Olie

Marian said:


> I think what most people fail to realise is that Cesar's methods are more about training people and breaking bad habits that we fall into to the detriment of our animals. It really isn't about training the dog--it's about undoing years of damage caused by humans.


I agree with this - which is likely why trainers/or so called trainers don't always agree because the perceived training does not follow thru in their eyes??- 

Cesar's shows have saved marriages, helped the handi-capped, tought addicts how to transform their anxiety/triggers into their dogs being calm and obedient. LOVE HIM


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## KPoos

Marian said:


> I think what most people fail to realise is that Cesar's methods are more about training people and breaking bad habits that we fall into to the detriment of our animals. It really isn't about training the dog--it's about undoing years of damage caused by humans.


I've said this before, I think humans try to humanize their animals. They try to fill empty nests, they try to replace the loss of a loved one, and they try to get love from an animal when animals do not feel that emotion. We want them to be what they aren't and that's what causes many behavioral problems. On top of that people just buy whatever dog looks pleasing to their eye and don't research the breed requirements. If a dog needs a firm handler like a GSD or a doberman then that needs to be considered before purchase. If the dog needs a job, don't buy it if you live in an apartment and then wonder later why the dog has issues. I also think that some people's personalities don't match the dogs' and they can easily get over on them and assert pack leadership because there is none with the human. That's when Cesar comes along and says you've got to be more assertive with this animal and it changes the person's life for the better.


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## Birdie

Personally, I am not a huge fan of some of his more particular approaches, but I agree with his ideas. Exercise, discipline, and consistency, etc. I also highly respect HIM as a person and a trainer. I used to think he was an arrogant jerk who was only in it for the money, but time has shown that he is very open and understanding, willing to admit his mistakes and work to improve, etc. I really do respect him even if I don't always like the fact that his "methods" get misinterpreted and overused by the general public who have no business using his more assertive methods on the average dog. 

I'm also a bit of a Victoria Stillwell fan, I like her methods as well. I really like bits and pieces of both of their training, but I tend to like the less confrontational techniques.


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## taxtell

I have grown to like Victoria Stillwell also! 

I dig Ceasar, but I agree, a lot of people have no business trying to use methods without the proper experience.


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## jak

I have not seen that much of Caesar, but I personally really like Jan Fennell's training, and her book, The Dog Listener


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## bigpoodleperson

I have just seen too many of Ceasers episodes (when i can stand to watch them) where the main component of his "training" is flooding. I saw a show where this bulldog would go after skateboards, balls, bikes, etc when on a walk. Well Ceaser took the dog out and had kids go past with all these things, and he had the dog on a slip lead. The dog was strangling himself on the end of the leash trying to go after all these things. The poor dog was blue at one point. When he physically exhaused himself and layed down Ceaser proclaimed him as "cured". :rolffleyes::doh: 
Another where a Dane was scared of slippery floors. All he did was make him walk over them again again while being dragged. I could go on and on.

Also people dont really adhere to the "dont try this at home" part! That is really just there so he doesnt get sued. You can call him a "non-trainer" all you like, but he still has to train the dog so he can show the owners how. All trainers work this way! You dont go to an obedience class and hand the leash off. They show you how to train your dog.

I never recommend him to anyone and cant stand to watch his shows. I find it very funny to watch people "shh" their dogs all over the store though! :bird: Dont get me started on BarkBusters either!!


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## cbrand

I have actually NEVER seen an episode of his show because we don't get it with our cable plan. I have also never read his book.

From what I've heard, though, I appreciate that he gets owners to take charge and stop babying their dogs. You have probably guess by now that this is my modus operandi.


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## KPoos

I actually use ehh with my dogs and it works. I'm curious what you would suggest to do to a dog that had issues with slippery floors? How would you train them? If a dog tried to bite everything that road by it how would you train that dog not to do that? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to know how people would train out the behaviors that some of the dogs on his show have?


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## taxtell

The most ill behaved dogs that come to our clinic are the ones that the owners treat like humans, not dogs.


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## Olie

I am very open to training techniques and willing to share ones that work for me. I am also curious as to how some may handle some of the cases he has, especially some of the fear and aggression issues. He does not always act alone, he works with behaviorist or trainers that are well experienced in other areas.


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## bigpoodleperson

> I actually use ehh with my dogs and it works. I'm curious what you would suggest to do to a dog that had issues with slippery floors? How would you train them? If a dog tried to bite everything that road by it how would you train that dog not to do that? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just want to know how people would train out the behaviors that some of the dogs on his show have?


I know your not being argumentative, and i hope i didnt come off as that either! 

If a dog had a fear issue with something i would Not just throw it into the situation! Its like throwing me into a room full of spiders to cure my fear of them. I would just be more scared of them (and probably die right there of my fright!). For the lunging dog i would not overstimulate it by constantly having someone skateboard in front of him. The dog just got so exhaused (and his airsupply was pretty much cut off) that he finally gave up and just layed down panting because he could not physically do it anymore. I would not consider that a suscessfull and curative "training session". 

I am of the training mind to try and change a dogs attitude of something instead of just suppress the issue. I would rather creat positive experiences with slippery floors or skateboard or bearded men. I would not just shove treats at the dog, but yes i would treat desired behavior, redirect their attention, work on obedience, train, etc. Its not a quick fix that can be crammed in one day for TV. For the ceaser shows ive seen i have never seen him go back after a couple weeks/months to see how the dog is still doing. 

I dont like people "baby-ing" their pets behavior either! I am just not a fan of how he goes about it. And its not the "shh" in particular, but the fact that most dogs that i see people doing this too are completely Ignoring the owners! Its like an annoying fly buzz to the dog after awhile as most people do it so often it gets tuned out.


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## plumcrazy

bigpoodleperson said:


> For the ceaser shows ive seen i have never seen him go back after a couple weeks/months to see how the dog is still doing.


At the end of each show, the owners give an update on how they're doing, how the dog is doing, what they're doing well with and what they still need to work on. Cesar may not go back in person, but there is ALWAYS an update - and; occasionally, he does go back after a period of time and if the dog is still having problems, he'll sometimes take the dog back to his dog psychology center for rehabilitation. I have the first three seasons on DVD so I've watched the episodes several times and there are definitely episodes where he goes back... But there's only so much you can do in a hour show (which is probably why I watch all the episodes multiple times!)


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## Fluffyspoos

I've always loved Cesar ^^ I have one of his books, haven't finished it yet though.. He's a really inspiring person.


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## bigpoodleperson

> he'll sometimes take the dog back to his dog psychology center for rehabilitation


I fail to see how that helps the owner much. A dog may not do behaviors and work well for someone else. Obviously it wasnt working well for the owners in the first place (and im assuming that Ceaser got it to work for him origionally the first time also). Dogs arnt like computers where to send it out to get "fixed". Most likely the dog will return to the owners and go back to the same problems.


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## Harley_chik

After working with the dogs at his center, Cesar requires the owner to come there and work w/ the dog before they are sent home. He doesn't just drop them off on the doorstep and I'm sure he follows up after the dog does go home. 

I watched "It's Me of the Dog" tonight and she was full of idiotic and bad advice. I usually like her training methods but she gets off on tangents. Tonight however she was dealing w/ a dog that needed to be PTS, period. The dog, a Peke, latched on to the owners niece and had to be "kicked" before she would let go. The wife was full of excuses and the husband didn't want to deal w/ the dog at all. I don't blame him the dog was a menace. She was a rescue that never should've been placed w/ these people. (She shouldn't have been placed at all, really.) The rescue gave the people no direction as far as trainers. Victoria kept minimizing the dogs problems. The dog was making the couple miserable, constantly attacking the other dog, causing problem w/ extended family (obviously) and miserable herself. At the end, the owner still couldn't hand the dog a treat, it had to be thrown to her and they couldn't pic her up w/o using an inflatable collar that prevented her from biting. (Like an e-collar.) Victoria also said the mother of the attacked child was being "negative." Ya think? The dog only tried to rip her daughter's face off. The whole thing was insane and if it had been an even slightly larger dog, it would've been PTS long before Victoria was called.


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## Olie

Harley_chik said:


> After working with the dogs at his center, Cesar requires the owner to come there and work w/ the dog before they are sent home. He doesn't just drop them off on the doorstep and I'm sure he follows up after the dog does go home.
> 
> I watched "It's Me of the Dog" tonight and she was full of idiotic and bad advice. I usually like her training methods but she gets off on tangents. Tonight however she was dealing w/ a dog that needed to be PTS, period. The dog, a Peke, latched on to the owners niece and had to be "kicked" before she would let go. The wife was full of excuses and the husband didn't want to deal w/ the dog at all. I don't blame him the dog was a menace. She was a rescue that never should've been placed w/ these people. (She shouldn't have been placed at all, really.) The rescue gave the people no direction as far as trainers. Victoria kept minimizing the dogs problems. The dog was making the couple miserable, constantly attacking the other dog, causing problem w/ extended family (obviously) and miserable herself. At the end, the owner still couldn't hand the dog a treat, it had to be thrown to her and they couldn't pic her up w/o using an inflatable collar that prevented her from biting. (Like an e-collar.) Victoria also said the mother of the attacked child was being "negative." Ya think? The dog only tried to rip her daughter's face off. The whole thing was insane and if it had been an even slightly larger dog, it would've been PTS long before Victoria was called.


She should stick to training, that's the part where I am not the biggest fan of - she does kind of throw out these odd opinions that really dont fit the incident well, sometimes. IMO she is attempting to reach out and assess people with her training and she is not even close some.


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## Olie

bigpoodleperson said:


> I fail to see how that helps the owner much. A dog may not do behaviors and work well for someone else. Obviously it wasnt working well for the owners in the first place (and im assuming that Ceaser got it to work for him origionally the first time also). Dogs arnt like computers where to send it out to get "fixed". Most likely the dog will return to the owners and go back to the same problems.


Again as I said before he seeks medical doctors to get involved in his healing of dogs that are bad off. He does not attemt to fix all or by himself and has never proclaimed to do that. 

Some of the issues that dogs have that are in the "red zone" do need to go to where their problem is, grant it you dint throw anyone or thing into the fire but walking is a day to day part of life that a dog needs not just for health but socialization.

One thing I guess I can also admire is he does not claim to be something he is not, and honestly he knows people.........and he knows dogs


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## Fluffyspoos

bigpoodleperson said:


> I fail to see how that helps the owner much. A dog may not do behaviors and work well for someone else. Obviously it wasnt working well for the owners in the first place (and im assuming that Ceaser got it to work for him origionally the first time also). Dogs arnt like computers where to send it out to get "fixed". Most likely the dog will return to the owners and go back to the same problems.


He helps the dog find balance.  Once the dog finds that in the pack it'll be easier for Cesar to teach the owners to cooperate.


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## taxtell

A little off topic, but what's wrong with BarkBusters?

My parents used them for their schnauzer, and he's about 1,000,000 times better behaved than what they got out of some crappy puppy class.


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## 814

Olie said:


> Again as I said before he seeks medical doctors to get involved in his healing of dogs that are bad off. He does not attemt to fix all or by himself and has never proclaimed to do that.
> 
> Some of the issues that dogs have that are in the "red zone" do need to go to where their problem is, grant it you dint throw anyone or thing into the fire but walking is a day to day part of life that a dog needs not just for health but socialization.
> 
> One thing I guess I can also admire is he does not claim to be something he is not, and honestly he knows people.........and he knows dogs


I agree. I think Ceasar is one of the first to bring a different way of looking at your dog to the masses. To treat them as what they are Dogs. He is like a horse wisperer in that he speaks their language and they respond. I also like Victoria Stillwell, I think they both have a lot to offer. Its great that their is so much more information out there on training. I remember when I got my first germanshepard (long ago lol) they said no obiedience training until 6 mo old!!! Things have changed for the better, and I think Ceasar had a roll in that.


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## plumcrazy

bigpoodleperson said:


> I fail to see how that helps the owner much. A dog may not do behaviors and work well for someone else. Obviously it wasnt working well for the owners in the first place (and im assuming that Ceaser got it to work for him origionally the first time also). Dogs arnt like computers where to send it out to get "fixed". Most likely the dog will return to the owners and go back to the same problems.


Cesar takes the dogs to his center so they can _rehabilitate_ - so the dog can learn to be a DOG again, a member of a balanced pack. It's not so much to help the owner as it is to help the dog (which *WILL* then, in turn, help the owner!!)

The only way the dog would return to the same problems is if the owners practice the same situations which got them into trouble in the first place (usually some sort of anthropomorphism) and not treating the dog like a dog!! I read Cesar's book "How to Raise The Perfect Dog" before I brought Lucy home and implemented a lot of his methods - they were PERFECT! I treated Lucy as a dog from the moment I met her, and she's been the easiest most well balanced puppy I've _ever_ raised!!


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## Olie

On the SHEEE thing.....that is annoying to hear lol, I agree BUT any word or noise will get the point across if repeated. 

Some people can take his methods to the extreme - by rolling a dog for licking too much or something goofy, I see this at the DP from time to time. The ones I can appreciate are when I see a very in control owner handle an aggressive dog quickly and follow through.....I think Cesar instilled this and the person was reseptive,


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## Marian

I agree with Harley_chik about that Peke last night. I could not believe she was not recommending PTS when the dog had not only bitten six people, but latched onto the face of a little girl. I can guarantee you that if that dog had been a pit or a rottie or a dobe, it would have been PTS faster than you can say "vicious dog". And I also felt really bad for the 14 year old dog who was being bullied.


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## Marian

bigpoodleperson said:


> I fail to see how that helps the owner much. A dog may not do behaviors and work well for someone else. Obviously it wasnt working well for the owners in the first place (and im assuming that Ceaser got it to work for him origionally the first time also). Dogs arnt like computers where to send it out to get "fixed". Most likely the dog will return to the owners and go back to the same problems.


It's like sending a computer back to be reset to its original factory settings. Then you can bring it home and mess it up again.


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## Aidan

I like Cesar, but I don't think anyone should be trying his methods at home without first consulting an animal behaviorist or a professional dog trainer. I don't even think people should be using head collars or pinch collars without being instructed on how to do so.

I made the mistake of using a pinch collar without any training on my first dog..a German Shepherd. I just figured I would throw it on her and let it do its work, but it made her even worse. It wasn't until we went to a dog training course that I learned how to use it properly and effectively..within days I had a wonderful walking companion.

I also don't think some of his "red zone" cases of aggression are all that bad... he makes it seem like a miracle when in fact the owner was just an idiot in the first place.


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## roxy25

The thing what most people don't realize is Cesar is not a dog trainer...... he is a dog behaviorist. Before every episode a disclaimer is announced and posted. 

I love Cesar and I been using the same methods he has before he got famous and was on Tv. ( his methods are not new ) IMo its just common sense to use dog language on dogs than any thing else. All Cesar is doing is dog language and some people think its harsh or mean but its not. In real life dogs would fight each other and bite each other if they get out of line. All Cesar does is use his had in the shape of a mouth ( what is so bad about that ? I have no clue lol ) He also uses the noose leads which he has too for aggressive dogs. 

Even Leerburg uses a noose collar which he calls the dominate dog collar. there is not other way IMO to control aggressive dogs but by the neck. ( have dealt with many aggressive dogs ) I even train a rottie to not bite people and all of it was just taking control and letting her know I own other people and you must not bite not unless I asked you to. ( FYI this was a 12 year old dog ) I didn't use any treats not praise just simple corrections like cesar does. 

A lot of people watch his show an they THINK they can just do what he does. If you do not know dog behavior or understand how a pack works and what are the rules of the pack then I suggested you don't attempt what he does. You also have to have a non negative , frustrated attitude with dogs.


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## Marian

Some of the most interesting cases, for me, have involved multi-dog families where one was unstable and the owners thought that their dogs were constantly fighting, when in fact it was just a case of the stable dog trying to calm down the unstable one. They weren't fighting at all. They were just being dogs.


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## bigpoodleperson

> A little off topic, but what's wrong with BarkBusters?


In my opinion, too much! We had a "trainer" come to my clinic for 2 hours and demo her methods. I wanted to get up and leave half way through. Their theory is that dogs are trying to dominate you every single second. Everything the dog does has dominance undertones. :rolffleyes:

Instead of a "shh" they have a "bahh" (like a sheep but deep voice). That is a "threat" to the dog, and if that doesnt work then they will throw bags of medal chains at the dog to increase the threat (at, not hit the dog, but still). Her theory is that dogs have teeth, so we have to have to have something to threaten them with. If you are standing in front of the dog and tell it to sit and it doesnt then you are to throw a sack at it. :doh:

Also she stressed that whenever a dog comes to you with its tail up that they are trying to be dominant. She will bahh at the dog when it comes to her to make its tail go down. You should of seen her dog when she called it, squinty eyes, avoiding eye contact, tail down, clearly not happy. Poor thing. I WANT my dogs tail up and to be Happy to come to me!!! If i yelled at my dog everytime he came to me then he would Not come to me. How would that help?!

Just 2 hours worth of stupid crazy stuff like that. They also correct dogs for being dominant between eachother. My rules are that as long as there are no fights then they are working it out for themselves. I let dogs be dogs and communicate.


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## Marian

bigpoodleperson said:


> In my opinion, too much! We had a "trainer" come to my clinic for 2 hours and demo her methods. I wanted to get up and leave half way through. Their theory is that dogs are trying to dominate you every single second. Everything the dog does has dominance undertones. :rolffleyes:
> 
> Instead of a "shh" they have a "bahh" (like a sheep but deep voice). That is a "treat" to the dog, and if that doesnt work then they will throw bags of medal chains at the dog to increase the threat (at, not hit the dog, but still). Her theory is that dogs have teeth, so we have to have to have something to threaten them with. If you are standing in front of the dog and tell it to sit and it doesnt then you are to throw a sack at it. :doh:
> 
> Also she stressed that whenever a dog comes to you with its tail up that they are trying to be dominant. She will bahh at the dog when it comes to her to make its tail go down. You should of seen her dog when she called it, squinty eyes, avoiding eye contact, tail down, clearly not happy. Poor thing. I WANT my dogs tail up and to be Happy to come to me!!! If i yelled at my dog everytime he came to me then he would Not come to me. How would that help?!
> 
> Just 2 hours worth of stupid crazy stuff like that. They also correct dogs for being dominant between eachother. My rules are that as long as there are no fights then they are working it out for themselves. I let dogs be dogs and communicate.


Never heard of Barkbusters but it sounds horrible. I agree with you 100% about letting dogs be themselves with each other. Some owners try to pull their dogs away if they seem to be getting too rough with Teddy, but I watch Teddy's body language and I can tell when he's scared, and believe me, if he's hurt (or even if he just _thinks_ he's hurt) he will let out a yelp very loudly to let everyone know.


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## Olie

Barkbusters - wow, cant blaime you a bit there! Terrible.


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## taxtell

Ha! Well I guess it worked for my parent's schnauzer because frankly, he WAS being dominate all the time to them.
I don't think they throw bags of anything at him, I will ask my mom next time I talk to her. I know she makes the 'bah' noise at him, etc.


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## Marian

Teddy was just now harassing the cat, so I tried the "bah" thing. I don't know if I'm doing it right though, because he looked at me kinda funny, almost as if to ask, "are you okay?", which made me start laughing. In fact, I can't make that noise at him without cracking up. So I guess I'll just stick to my "ehhn!" (or however you spell it).


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## spoospirit

Marian said:


> Teddy was just now harassing the cat, so I tried the "bah" thing. I don't know if I'm doing it right though, because he looked at me kinda funny, almost as if to ask, "are you okay?", which made me start laughing. In fact, I can't make that noise at him without cracking up. So I guess I'll just stick to my "ehhn!" (or however you spell it).


_ound:

I can't believe that Barkbusters!! Here I am teaching my dogs to come to me with tails high and wagging for the show ring! Must be I'm doing something wrong?! LOL Wouldn't that be a disaster if I started yelling 'BAH' and throwing bags of chains at them. I would never be able to get near them. That is insane training!!_


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## Marian

Why don't you just get an airhorn while you're at it?


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## artsycourtneysue

Did you see the episode where Cesar worked with Pat Parelli??? Pretty cool stuff..



plumcrazy said:


> I also like and respect Cesar Millan!! I do Parelli Natural Horse*man*ship with my horses and there are people who LOVE Pat Parelli (like ME!!) and there are people who can't stand to look at the guy - I believe that the more naturally you can communicate with ANY animal (dog, horse, human) the more effective you'll be! These men have spent decades, observing, comparing, noting the language of their chosen mammal and they are unarguably effective in their chosen fields.
> 
> I use Cesar methods, too, because they make sense to me AND to my pack. While I get frequent questions from friends about why their dogs are doing this, or how can they stop them from doing that, or whatever; I'm having a happy, complete relationship with my pack! The one thing that some people don't understand is that Cesar does not claim to be a dog TRAINER - he rehabilitates dogs and he teaches the HUMAN what to see, what to look for, what to do!! I like him!


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## artsycourtneysue

Agreed about cesar! I like watching "It's me or the dog" but I personally don't think she should deal with agressive dogs....Just saw this week's episode and in my opinion, she did nothing for this peakanese who has already bit 6-10 people! 

She is good for basic dog training...potty training issues, leash problems etc., but I really think cesar excells in the situations where little dogs have taken over a house. And also with neurotic/obsessive situations as well.... 



plumcrazy said:


> That's why on every single episode of his show, there's a disclaimer that tells people to NOT ATTEMPT THESE TECHNIQUES WITHOUT CONSULTING A PROFESSIONAL... If someone who isn't familiar with dogs thinks they can watch his show and get the same results as he does (especially with aggressive dogs) they will probably get hurt... That doesn't mean his methods are flawed - it means the people who got hurt didn't 1.) listen to the disclaimer, and/or 2.) didn't employ the method correctly in the first place... IMO
> 
> 
> 
> First, Cesar never calls himself a dog trainer (although I think he could kick butt as a trainer - that's not what he advertises that he does) And, I've found, with my own pack, that calm assertive behavior is like MAGIC (of course, none of my dogs are super-alpha or aggressive at all) I've been around a lot of different dogs (I managed a humane society for 4 years) and some were aggressive - I'd have to say that my common sense made me realize that I didn't have the skills or innate ability to handle the aggressive dogs with the amount of assertive energy that Cesar uses - in most (maybe all) of the situations when we had highly aggressive dogs, they were euthanized anyway so I didn't get a lot of experience with really bad aggression.
> 
> 
> 
> I like "It's Me or the Dog", too. Victoria does a little more on the actual dog TRAINING side than Cesar does - it's not exactly the same thing, but equally as entertaining!!
> 
> I'm just glad there are these shows out there so that people learn that there are ways to get help with fixable issues with their pets - I also watch a lot of the Animal Cops shows on Animal Planet - It brings back a lot of memories from my shelter days. Even in our small city of Bismarck, ND, we had our share of animal neglect, abuse, abandonment. I like watching the stories where the abuser actually gets prosecuted and gets fines/jail time!! I just read a news story that said North Dakota is ranked as the WORST state for animal rights.  It's because we're SOOOO rural and agricultural and our legislators aren't willing to pass animal protection laws just in case they'd offend the farmers. :fish:


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## plumcrazy

artsycourtneysue said:


> Did you see the episode where Cesar worked with Pat Parelli??? Pretty cool stuff..


Yep!!  Loved it!! I've met Pat several times in my years of following his program (spent 2 weeks at his study center in Florida in 2008) and he is soooo good at what he does - I think it makes so much sense to learn the animal's body language because it's rather impossible for them to learn how to be human - Although poodles are about as close to human as I've seen!


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## KPoos

Oh and I just wanted to say that in humans yes for the most part, people with fear issues get submerged into the fear situations in order to stop having the fear reaction. They do it slowly but eventually they force them to face what they fear for longer periods of time. If you are afraid of flying eventually you will get on a plane. Fear responses are usually triggers in the brain caused by a trauma and you have no control over it. I have a fear that I've lived with as long as I can remember. From my reading, it was caused from an early childhood traumatic experience (that often times isn't even read properly by the child) and set in the fear response for the rest of my life.

I'm not sure that I disagree with the method Cesar uses to "break" a dog's habit like trying to bite something that moves or a fear. I saw that episode with the Dane and the slippery floors and that dog was fine on floors later after working with him. It might not "look" like a fun way to create a calm state of mind but the outcome is evident that his methods work.


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## poodleholic

While CM is charismatic, and does have some good ideas, he's taken training back 50 yrs. What he does to those poor dogs is called flooding, which can do more psychological damage - well, here his BS is explained:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


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## Olie

This article seems a little contradictory........JMO. It has some valid history there but I guess I missed the comparison


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## Marian

The thing is though, everyone's just trying to jump on the big-business dog training bandwagon. Of course they're going to badmouth their competition.


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## KPoos

poodleholic said:


> While CM is charismatic, and does have some good ideas, he's taken training back 50 yrs. What he does to those poor dogs is called flooding, which can do more psychological damage - well, here his BS is explained:
> 
> http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


Again I ask the question, if not flooding, what? If a dog suffers from a fear conceived from puppyhood of "slippery floors" (just because that's been used as an example) what training do you do in order to remedy that problem for that dog?


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## spoofly

I think a lot of Cesar Millan's theories and practices are interesting and perhaps accurate. I pick and chose methods of his and methods of others'. I use what works. I do like to use the "Chhh" sound when correcting Fly. I find it mild in comparison to "NO", and I try to be as mild as possible when correcting or training. I also agree with the "calm assertive energy". I don't think I agree with the amount of time he gives the dogs to respond. I think every dog is different and what one would learn in five minutes might take another five days to be comfortable with. Overall I think there is some good knowledge to be gained from Cesar's practices. JMO.


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## poodleholic

KPoos said:


> Again I ask the question, if not flooding, what? If a dog suffers from a fear conceived from puppyhood of "slippery floors" (just because that's been used as an example) what training do you do in order to remedy that problem for that dog?



Let's use a more serious example of a dog who had fear based issues involving dog-to-dog aggression, also being a "window terrorist" (barking, snarling, lunging at anything/everything outside the window, or on the other side of the fence in the back yard. This dog is my Standard Poodle, Beau, who, unfortunately, had some pretty terrible experiences, resulting in severe behavioral issues, along with GI issues. It's been 6 yrs. now, and he's a healthy, wonderful boy, kind and patient with dogs and cats, puppies and kitties, and is a perfect gentleman wherever I take him. 

I used *desensitization and counter conditioning*. At no time was he subjected to aversive methods of training, so NO corrections, and, his exposure to triggers was controlled. If aversive methods like those CM uses, he would have shut down. His behavior and his severe GI problems were a direct result of being handled in that manner. 

I have two other SPoodles at home, in addition to cats, and frequently foster pets for families fleeing domestic violence. Many of those dogs have issues, and never, ever, would I use force, or aversive methods of training. OC +R only. 

My Poodles are trained using OC +R, and they LOVE training sessions! Because it's FUN, for both of us. I've taught my SPoodles to:

Find and bring to me the remote, the phone, my keys, purse, their leash.
They help bring groceries in from the car, and put some of them away. 
They toss junk mail in the kitchen trash for me.
They pick up and put their toys away in the toybox.
They put their food bowls in the sink after meals.
They bring me whatever I point to, or ask for by name (pillow, slippers, blanket, etc.), and so much more. I no longer have a pull rope on the 'fridge handle, because Beau, bless his heart, will eat me out've house and home! Now that he doesn't vomit and can keep his food down, he LOVES to eat! So, I have to get my own drinks!

I don't have to use force to get them to do what I want them to do. I use exactly what trainers at Sea World, and the like, use to train killer whales, dolphins, etc. Even our military uses OC +R to train dolphins. 

If your dog isn't responding to training, then it's probably because the dog hasn't understood what you want. Communication is key, as is one's relationship with the dog. I prefer mutual trust and respect, and that's what I have with my crew. I don't have to shout NO or get physical if one of them is doing something I don't like - a simple "eh eh" works, and often just a raised eyebrow will do. They're experts at reading me, so they immediately know what pleases me, or does not please me, and adjust their behavior accordingly.


----------



## Olie

poodleholic said:


> If your dog isn't responding to training, then it's probably because the dog hasn't understood what you want. Communication is key, as is one's relationship with the dog.



Interesting I believe CM says very closely the same thing.......


What great tricks you have tought your dog!!! This can ONLY happen to a dog that is in the right state of mind. 

I really should re-watch some CM - I have never seen what I consider forced situations on a dog - and if their fear issue was that bad CM would ask to take the dog and or get a behavorist involved and work slowly with the dog....

I think it is great to identify as you said what a dog needs, as far as training even theropy - Again I have not seen CM do a one way method on all dogs..its usually very different from the next dog. 

What works is the key and he has a pretty good track record.


----------



## cerulia

poodleholic said:


> Let's use a more serious example of a dog who had fear based issues involving dog-to-dog aggression, also being a "window terrorist" (barking, snarling, lunging at anything/everything outside the window, or on the other side of the fence in the back yard. This dog is my Standard Poodle, Beau, who, unfortunately, had some pretty terrible experiences, resulting in severe behavioral issues, along with GI issues. It's been 6 yrs. now, and he's a healthy, wonderful boy, kind and patient with dogs and cats, puppies and kitties, and is a perfect gentleman wherever I take him.
> 
> I used *desensitization and counter conditioning*. At no time was he subjected to aversive methods of training, so NO corrections, and, his exposure to triggers was controlled. If aversive methods like those CM uses, he would have shut down. His behavior and his severe GI problems were a direct result of being handled in that manner.
> 
> I have two other SPoodles at home, in addition to cats, and frequently foster pets for families fleeing domestic violence. Many of those dogs have issues, and never, ever, would I use force, or aversive methods of training. OC +R only.
> 
> My Poodles are trained using OC +R, and they LOVE training sessions! Because it's FUN, for both of us. I've taught my SPoodles to:
> 
> Find and bring to me the remote, the phone, my keys, purse, their leash.
> They help bring groceries in from the car, and put some of them away.
> They toss junk mail in the kitchen trash for me.
> They pick up and put their toys away in the toybox.
> They put their food bowls in the sink after meals.
> They bring me whatever I point to, or ask for by name (pillow, slippers, blanket, etc.), and so much more. I no longer have a pull rope on the 'fridge handle, because Beau, bless his heart, will eat me out've house and home! Now that he doesn't vomit and can keep his food down, he LOVES to eat! So, I have to get my own drinks!
> 
> I don't have to use force to get them to do what I want them to do. I use exactly what trainers at Sea World, and the like, use to train killer whales, dolphins, etc. Even our military uses OC +R to train dolphins.
> 
> If your dog isn't responding to training, then it's probably because the dog hasn't understood what you want. Communication is key, as is one's relationship with the dog. I prefer mutual trust and respect, and that's what I have with my crew. I don't have to shout NO or get physical if one of them is doing something I don't like - a simple "eh eh" works, and often just a raised eyebrow will do. They're experts at reading me, so they immediately know what pleases me, or does not please me, and adjust their behavior accordingly.


I'd love to hear more about the OC+R for practical application. Really. I know from taking psychology courses that this is useful for behavior modification. However, as a scientist I am also aware that there is research out there that supports about every claim under the sun. There are many people who believe Skinner was full of it. Thusly, making decisions about the proper training of a family pet is quite difficult. Most of us want to do the right thing.

That being said, I'd also love to read some anti-CM articles that actually offered alternatives to his approaches. I'm very open minded but I have used many of the lessons from Cesar's books for training and guidance with my 5 month old. I feel like we're grooming her to be a well-rounded and happy dog. Of course, we don't follow every single piece of advice but there's a lot of logic there. If someone who is not a fan of cesar would detail their methods, it would probably be helpful to many of us. I have seen too many dogs "go bad" via being treated as furry people and I feel like that is commonly a characteristic of frustrated pet owners.


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## Olie

cerulia said:


> That being said, I'd also love to read some anti-CM articles that actually offered alternatives to his approaches. I'm very open minded but I have used many of the lessons from Cesar's books for training and guidance with my 5 month old. I feel like we're grooming her to be a well-rounded and happy dog. Of course, we don't follow every single piece of advice but there's a lot of logic there. If someone who is not a fan of cesar would detail their methods, it would probably be helpful to many of us. I have seen too many dogs "go bad" via being treated as furry people and I feel like that is commonly a characteristic of frustrated pet owners.


 Agree.....


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## KPoos

And often times people don't realize that just a small change will cause a change in a dog's behavior. Someone here mentioned that their dog isn't constantly trying to challenge them for leadership role in the pack and that is probably true but a change occurs in the dog's life and he will try to challenge for leadership. You just have to look for clues and a lot of people aren't intuned enough with a dog's behaviors to see the signs before it becomes a bigger problem.


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## Raena

Fyi, flooding is a very common technique used in human behavioral counseling especially for phobias and obsessive compulsive disorder with great success. It is one of the few non drug treatments that has helped people with savier(sp, sorry...) phobioas


----------



## poodleholic

> =cerulia;62941]I'd love to hear more about the OC+R for practical application. Really. I know from taking psychology courses that this is useful for behavior modification. However, as a scientist I am also aware that there is research out there that supports about every claim under the sun. There are many people who believe Skinner was full of it. Thusly, making decisions about the proper training of a family pet is quite difficult. Most of us want to do the right thing.


Here you go: http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ MAIN/indexdog.html

And,

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/index.htm
BTW, you do not have to use a clicker, but use a marker of some sort, such as a verbal "Yes!"



> That being said, I'd also love to read some anti-CM articles that actually offered alternatives to his approaches. I'm very open minded but I have used many of the lessons from Cesar's books for training and guidance with my 5 month old. I feel like we're grooming her to be a well-rounded and happy dog. Of course, we don't follow every single piece of advice but there's a lot of logic there. If someone who is not a fan of cesar would detail their methods, it would probably be helpful to many of us. I have seen too many dogs "go bad" via being treated as furry people and I feel like that is commonly a characteristic of frustrated pet owners.


While I do not see my dogs as "furry people," I do view them as family members, sensitive beings with needs and feelings, and raise my dogs very much the way I raised my children - Ignore unwanted behavior, distract, redirect, and follow up with positive reinforcement for compliance. Dogs do what works, and they learn by association. Lucia, for example, was nicknamed "Land Shark" due to her sharp little nips when jumping up on me in her wild excitement to see me after returning home. When turning my back and ignoring her didn't work real well (butt nipper!), I removed myself from the room she was in, thereby depriving her of her greatest resource - me, provider of all good things (attention, affection, food, walks, etc.). After 1-2 minutes, I'd step over the baby gate to try again. If she displayed the same unwanted behavior, I calmly said, "wrong, too bad," and removed myself from her access, waited a couple of minutes, and tried again. She learned to stop this behavior in short order. Why? Because she quickly figured out that when she jumped and nipped, she lost me. When she kept 4 on the floor, she got what she wanted - attention and affection, and praise, along with a treat (NOT always a food treat - sometimes a play session w/her favorite toy). 

When I train and they get it right, I throw a party! (YAY Lucia! GOOD JOB! GO MADDY! GO MADDY! WaHoo! GOOD BOY, Beau!) I jump up and down, make faces, dance around, hoot and hollar, and generally act like I've lost my marbles. The Poodles LOVE it when I'm goofy, and their focus is ON ME, and only me! I have absolutely no dignity when it comes to training! I make it FUN; for them, and for me. 

I set boundaries, and am consistent about them (no roughhousing inside, no running through the doorway, no barking incessantly at "intruders" (postal carrier, people walking by). I teach my dogs to bark once or twice to alert, and then stop, simply by going immediately to the window or door, looking out, then yawning (nothing to worry about) and say, "that's enough, thank you." I asked my postal carrier if my dogs barked and carried on when he delivered my mail, to which he replied, "you have dogs?" LOL I guess that says it all! They know it's the mail guy, the meter reader, the garbage truck, the lawn guy, so it's nothing to alert to. 

I establish a daily routine. Dogs, just like children, thrive on structure and routine. Meals aren't exactly at the same time every morning and every evening, but at some time in the am and pm, therefore, I don't have dogs who are demanding to be fed at 9:00 am or 6:00 pm on the dot. Our daily routine is fairly loose, but provides structure in that their needs are met each day for mental stimulation and physical release (run off zoomies, eat, brief training sessions, walks, quiet time in or out of crates w/a bone/Kong, or the like, 30-min. down/stays, interactive games outside in the back yard (designed to make them think and problem solve), dinner, walks, and so on). 

I work the overnight shift, so each night, I leave for work at 11:00pm. At 10:00 pm you'll find my dogs by the front door, quietly waiting to be called, one-by-one, to have their collars/leads put on! LOL When we get back home, they wait by the 'fridge for me to get out the yogurt for their before-bed-snack. Then Maddy grabs her duck and heads for her bed, Lucia goes to her crate, and Beau goes to his bed. I can tell when I'm running late leaving for work - the Poodles are nowhere in sight! They've gone to bed. LOL

Each dog gets one-on-one time with me, to keep the bond with me stronger than with the other dog(s), and to prevent dependency on being with the other dog(s), which also carries over into being able to leave the house with one dog while the others remain at home. Those left behind are ok with that because they've learned that this is what occurs, and their turn will come (I say the same phrase each and every time I leave with one dog). I have friends with multiple dogs who cannot do this because the other dog(s) make a big stink and carry on like they're being murdered. Her dogs are also demanding of attention (you know the type; they push your hand with their nose or head, and are always forcing themselves on you). 

I love the fact that my dogs are very into me, and that we work as a team. They can read me so well that even the most subtle body language on my part has them alert and waiting for a cue from me, if they're unsure of what to do in a given situation. They're careful of me in that they don't get rowdy and knock into me, they move out've my way when I'm walking, or am going to sit down on the sofa - in the words of my grandson, they're polite! lol I'm very proud of them (and they know it)!


----------



## taxtell

So, speaking of CM, someone recently showed me this video.

I haven't seen a video like this from him ever to be honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSERTmOrpk


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## Cdnjennga

taxtell said:


> So, speaking of CM, someone recently showed me this video.
> 
> I haven't seen a video like this from him ever to be honest.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSERTmOrpk


I could only watch the first 15 seconds of that, I found it VERY uncomfortable. The thing that really bothes me is that the dog did not react naturally to the other in an aggressive way. He kicked the dog to get it to react that way, and then started choking it. What is the dog supposed to take from that? Yikes, I'm feeling all disturbed.


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## taxtell

I am sorry I didn't mean to upset you, I just was literally shocked at this one.


----------



## KPoos

taxtell said:


> So, speaking of CM, someone recently showed me this video.
> 
> I haven't seen a video like this from him ever to be honest.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSERTmOrpk


Okay first of all what was Cesar supposed to do in that situation, be bitten? I mean for someone to say what he did was cruel, that's unreasonable. Had he done anything differently he would have had that husky attached to his arm and suffered serious damage. The dog was not asphixiated, he was tired yes and layed down but he wasn't on the verge of death.

I'd like to know what people with seriously aggressive dogs would do with them because dogs like that are a danger to society and the people that own them.

I did not see him kick that dog. If he tapped him with a foot to get him to respond to him that's one thing but kicking like punting with a football is another.

If someone doesn't like his methods, fine but you don't have to accuse the man of animal abuse which is completely FALSE under those circumstances in which he was bitten and almost mauled by a dog.


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## Cdnjennga

taxtell said:


> I am sorry I didn't mean to upset you, I just was literally shocked at this one.


Oh not your fault, you weren't the one getting the dog to react then stringing it up! I just wasn't prepared for what I was about to see. I understand once the dog was on the attack, CM had to protect himself. What bothers me is that he's the one who seemingly instigated the attack on himself! And that this clip was then used as an example of how to deal with aggressive dogs!


----------



## Cdnjennga

After I watched the first few seconds of the clip, I googled it. This link explains my feelings towards it in a much better (and more knowledgeable) way than I could.

http://blog.r-plusdogtraining.info/...ian-working-with-shadow-a-wolfdog-hybrid.aspx


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## cowpony

taxtell said:


> So, speaking of CM, someone recently showed me this video.
> 
> I haven't seen a video like this from him ever to be honest.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eSERTmOrpk



I think that's a great example of "Don't try this at home, kids." If the dog is a fear biter, you've just made the situation ten times worse. If the dog is dominant, as Cesar claims this one is, you better have better timing and sensitivity than 99% of amateurs dog handlers have.


----------



## KPoos

Cdnjennga said:


> Oh not your fault, you weren't the one getting the dog to react then stringing it up! I just wasn't prepared for what I was about to see. I understand once the dog was on the attack, CM had to protect himself. What bothers me is that he's the one who seemingly instigated the attack on himself! And that this clip was then used as an example of how to deal with aggressive dogs!


We don't even know what happened before that or what the dog's issues were because all we saw was one clip. I'm going to stay out of the thread now because of "abuse" allegations being thrown around are ridiculous.


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## Olie

OK - I seen this show from beginning to end. 

And I had no problem watching this....hwell: that was NOT a kick, period. IMO - I thought CM was handling a severely aggressive dog well. Try handling a dog that size and getting it to submit.... Again - watch the show from beginning to end to see the results before and after.


----------



## Olie

cowpony said:


> I think that's a great example of "Don't try this at home, kids." If the dog is a fear biter, you've just made the situation ten times worse. If the dog is dominant, as Cesar claims this one is, you better have better timing and sensitivity than 99% of amateurs dog handlers have.


Exactly - only experience can resolve this situation as it was - the show comes with disclaimers -


----------



## Olie

KPoos said:


> We don't even know what happened before that or what the dog's issues were because all we saw was one clip. I'm going to stay out of the thread now because of "abuse" allegations being thrown around are ridiculous.


I sort of find it disturbing that some want to accuse and bash his process of rehabilitation - it's one thing to agree or disagree but it's another to imply something in a video thats clearly not abuse - it was handling the situation with a powerful dog - had I tried that I would have been eated for lunch - because I seen the before and after.


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## taxtell

I'm not saying it was or wasn't abuse, but how would you feel if that was your dog?

It really is a double edged sword, I can say 'oh well I'd never let my dog behave like that.' etc.


----------



## Cdnjennga

Well CM got bitten by that dog, quite severely I believe. So his experience didn't help him much. What he did (what I see from watching the clip) is redirect an aggressive and reactive dog's reactions towards another dog onto himself. And he almost got majorly injured in the process, plus most likely escalated this dog's issues that were already there. I would say he was in way over his head here.

While I find it very uncomfortable to see the dog being almost asphyxiated (and actually stopped watching), that's not where my issue lies. My issue is that he created the situation in the first place by kicking/ tapping/ whatever a highly tense and aggressive dog. I just don't think that's a good plan of action to take. I also don't think airing this clip was the best idea, disclaimers or no disclaimers. Says to me CM is more about drama and showmanship than actually educating the public.


----------



## Olie

taxtell said:


> I'm not saying it was or wasn't abuse, but how would you feel if that was your dog?
> 
> It really is a double edged sword, I can say 'oh well I'd never let my dog behave like that.' etc.


I dont know if the question was for anyone in particular, But I personally would be fine with what took place.....is it NOT easy to see, NO - but the reality is in the end with his method - He saved this dogs life........so IT DID WORK.


----------



## Olie

Olie said:


> I don't know if the question was for anyone in particular, But I personally would be fine with what took place.....is it NOT easy to see, NO - but the reality is in the end with his method - He saved this dogs life........so IT DID WORK.


What I see is there are some good training tips that were mentioned in here but more so as a disagreement to CM....- people have many different methods, and agree and disagree. This video as hard as it to watch, this dog was real close to being euthinized.....and CM went in there with his approach and changed the entire outcome. Is he out there OH YES - but it works, and in my opinion he is genuine not a showman at all.


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## taxtell

No, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I just meant in general.
It IS hard to watch...I realize that some dogs need that kind of handling.

It's just a shame that it ever has to even GET to that point.

We have dogs that behave ridiculously on a daily basis that come into the clinic, and the sad reality of it is that they NEED some sort of training. We just end up sedating them, and any suggestions about training go in one ear and out the other. 

Honestly I can't even imagine letting my dog get so far gone, and even if there is a disclaimer on the show, we all know that someone who has no idea what they are doing will try this kind of handling. 

As far as rehabilitating the dog...I wonder if owners are consistent with what they learn or if they often end up back at square one.


----------



## Olie

taxtell said:


> No, it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I just meant in general.
> It IS hard to watch...I realize that some dogs need that kind of handling.
> 
> It's just a shame that it ever has to even GET to that point.
> 
> We have dogs that behave ridiculously on a daily basis that come into the clinic, and the sad reality of it is that they NEED some sort of training. We just end up sedating them, and any suggestions about training go in one ear and out the other.
> 
> Honestly I can't even imagine letting my dog get so far gone, and even if there is a disclaimer on the show, we all know that someone who has no idea what they are doing will try this kind of handling.
> 
> As far as rehabilitating the dog...I wonder if owners are consistent with what they learn or if they often end up back at square one.


I dont disagree at all on how long I would let it go on. Not that far - I would have no choice becaue I don't have that much money to rehabilitate a dog that bad off. 

And I agree - there are people that do the CM "moves" and it is crazy sometimes to watch. I have seen some roll a dog to their side for barking when coming into the dog park - DUMB.

They do a reunion show every year showing some updates and then his website does put up updates as well...I don't know anyone that has a 100% success rates as dogs and their enviroments are so different from the next.


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## taxtell

Someone 'tsst'ed our 11lb Cavalier (Jack)once because he was sniffing their puppy.

Jack looked at the guy like 'What the F was that, dude?' It was actually hilarious.

This sums up my feelings about CM perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeiFVxEUmjo


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## Olie

Thats hysterical!!!


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## cerulia

poodleholic said:


> While I do not see my dogs as "furry people," I do view them as family members, sensitive beings with needs and feelings, and raise my dogs very much the way I raised my children - Ignore unwanted behavior, distract, redirect, and follow up with positive reinforcement for compliance. Dogs do what works, and they learn by association. Lucia, for example, was nicknamed "Land Shark" due to her sharp little nips when jumping up on me in her wild excitement to see me after returning home. When turning my back and ignoring her didn't work real well (butt nipper!), I removed myself from the room she was in, thereby depriving her of her greatest resource - me, provider of all good things (attention, affection, food, walks, etc.). After 1-2 minutes, I'd step over the baby gate to try again. If she displayed the same unwanted behavior, I calmly said, "wrong, too bad," and removed myself from her access, waited a couple of minutes, and tried again. She learned to stop this behavior in short order. Why? Because she quickly figured out that when she jumped and nipped, she lost me. When she kept 4 on the floor, she got what she wanted - attention and affection, and praise, along with a treat (NOT always a food treat - sometimes a play session w/her favorite toy).
> 
> When I train and they get it right, I throw a party! (YAY Lucia! GOOD JOB! GO MADDY! GO MADDY! WaHoo! GOOD BOY, Beau!) I jump up and down, make faces, dance around, hoot and hollar, and generally act like I've lost my marbles. The Poodles LOVE it when I'm goofy, and their focus is ON ME, and only me! I have absolutely no dignity when it comes to training! I make it FUN; for them, and for me.
> 
> I set boundaries, and am consistent about them (no roughhousing inside, no running through the doorway, no barking incessantly at "intruders" (postal carrier, people walking by). I teach my dogs to bark once or twice to alert, and then stop, simply by going immediately to the window or door, looking out, then yawning (nothing to worry about) and say, "that's enough, thank you." I asked my postal carrier if my dogs barked and carried on when he delivered my mail, to which he replied, "you have dogs?" LOL I guess that says it all! They know it's the mail guy, the meter reader, the garbage truck, the lawn guy, so it's nothing to alert to.


I totally agree with these techniques! But I have to say from what I've read by CM--it's exactly consistent with his message or at least my interpretation of it. He is all about follow-through and positive reinforcement. He often says that if you are really tuned into your dog you will barely need verbal cues or touches to reinforce behavior. (I don't think I'll ever be that good haha).

My personal opinion of the abusiveness argument is that I have not ever been under the impression that he or his methods are abusive. Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion and if other people consider his techniques abusive well, I guess that's all well and good. But I've seen legitimate abuse of people and animals and CM to me is not a representative of that field of thought...


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## Harley_chik

taxtell said:


> Someone 'tsst'ed our 11lb Cavalier (Jack)once because he was sniffing their puppy.
> 
> Jack looked at the guy like 'What the F was that, dude?' It was actually hilarious.
> 
> This sums up my feelings about CM perfectly:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeiFVxEUmjo


OMG I love that! I've often thought his methods/philosophy would work great on kids. (Treat them like kids, not royalty and be consistent w/ them.)


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## PonkiPoodles

taxtell said:


> I have grown to like Victoria Stillwell also!
> 
> I dig Ceasar, but I agree, a lot of people have no business trying to use methods without the proper experience.


I love both Caesar and Victoria, 
they each have two completely different ways of doing things, and both ways work. So my concusion - use whatever the dog gives you to work with. 



> (Treat them like kids, not royalty and be consistent w/ them.)


Don't know if treating them like kids will work ... as from what I've seen on tv most american families are dysfunctional to begin with - hence the shows nanny 101/supernanny etc. whatever they call it! :biggrin: :rolffleyes: (sorry, not saying this to offend anyone)


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## plumcrazy

I love Cesar. I wish he would come and live under my bed! No... SERIOUSLY... I DO!!! Here's my response to the people who accuse Cesar of being "abusive" or "kicking" or whatever... If you keep an open mind and really watch this man (don't do it with a closed mind or with your eyes all squinty and your lips all pursed up in disapproval!) you will see that there is never (ever, ever, ever) any anger, annoyance, irritation; no frustration, aggravation, etc. in any of his methods. He is perpetually calm and assertive - even when that huge dog was trying to take his head off, he did not come unglued and start beating, kicking, screaming, running etc. - he kept his cool, everything that was done was in response to the dog's actions (even the "TOUCH" to the dog had a reason - we weren't right there to SEE tiny signs - if the hackles were starting to rise, if there was a low growl, etc...) and the dog was never in danger of dying (except for maybe being euthanized because of being uber-dominant/aggressive). 

I hear the things others are saying about Cesar being abusive, and I'm sorry... I just don't see it! I believe he truly IS in this business because he loves dogs and wants to help the average dog owner have a better relationship with their animal - it is NOT his fault if people allow their dogs to get that out of control before he comes on the scene.

I follow Parelli Natural Horse*man*ship, too and I hear the complaints of people who think Pat is too abusive, then there's the camp who think's he's too "touchy-feely" with horses... Well, he can't be BOTH and I believe he's neither... I believe he's NATURAL with them, which is also how I feel Cesar is with dogs. IMHO... 

I don't disagree that there may be a variety of methods that work, but I've never seen Cesar do anything by which I'm offended and I have the first three seasons of his show on DVD (and will be getting subsequent seasons because I love him so much!!) and he hasn't ruined me or anything - I have a very well balanced pack. They're all well behaved and obedient. I also do rescue and foster frequently and I've never had a problem with the dozens and dozens of dogs which have stayed with me on the way to their forever homes - I credit Cesar and his methods for the harmony in my home!


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## Ladybug

Plumcrazy! Don't we all wish we had a handsome dog whisperer under our bed! 

I watched the video that someone posted on here of him working with the aggressive dog. I didn't feel that what he did was abusive, but I DO feel that the owner was abusive allowing the dog to get so bad. I mean that dog was getting a hold of his ARM! Holy Cow! I don't know what else he could have done, besides what he did. That was a big dog.

I'm going to take a closer look at Mr Cesar after this post! I've really enjoyed reading what everyone had to say and looking at all the different websites. There is A LOT to learn out there!


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## Marian

Olie said:


> OK - I seen this show from beginning to end.
> 
> And I had no problem watching this....hwell: that was NOT a kick, period. IMO - I thought CM was handling a severely aggressive dog well. Try handling a dog that size and getting it to submit.... Again - watch the show from beginning to end to see the results before and after.


I saw the episode too and didn't feel uneasy watching it. If I recall correctly, the owners were talking about having to have the dog PTS because of his aggression. Olie, correct me if I'm not remembering that right.


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## Olie

Marian said:


> I saw the episode too and didn't feel uneasy watching it. If I recall correctly, the owners were talking about having to have the dog PTS because of his aggression. Olie, correct me if I'm not remembering that right.


You are correct - it was an intense show


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## Cdnjennga

I've watched the whole video now, with both sound and no sound. I was going to write out a detailed view of what I think I see, but I think I'll leave it there. We can agree to disagree. I think Plum said it earlier - what you see in this clip is going to be coloured by your overall impression of CM. I'm still very disturbed by my intrepretation of what I see in this clip (vs what he tells us is going on), but I could of course be biased by my overall opinion of CM and his theories. I'm no dog expert, so what I think I'm seeing may not be the case.


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## Marian

We can definitely agree to disagree--nothing wrong with that! I wonder if you would feel the same if you knew/had met the dog in question in person, or if you knew its owners. Do you still think your opinion of that particular case would be coloured by your overall opinion of CM?


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## taxtell

Has anyone seen this full episode?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvr8tQhJY4


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## taxtell

Interestingly, I found this video as well.
I really like O.J.'s methods!
I know this was just a short clip, but he seems more my speed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3XrKkrAZpY


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## Cdnjennga

taxtell said:


> Has anyone seen this full episode?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPvr8tQhJY4


Oh yeah, great, so now the dog's terrified of the cat! And he bit the owner seemingly in the process. This is all just a great rehabilitation! The poor dog is basically being terrorized during this clip IMO. I'm still shuddering over here. 

I'm really trying not to be inflammatory, and I do honestly believe we are all fine to have different opinions, but CM is just not for me. I have tried to sit and watch his show a couple of times but his style is not mine. I feel very uncomfortable with what I've seen. And I don't think I can bear to hear the words "dominate" or "dominance" one more time from him...


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## Olie

Cdnjennga said:


> Oh yeah, great, so now the dog's terrified of the cat! And he bit the owner seemingly in the process. This is all just a great rehabilitation! The poor dog is basically being terrorized during this clip IMO. I'm still shuddering over here.
> 
> I'm really trying not to be inflammatory, and I do honestly believe we are all fine to have different opinions, but CM is just not for me. I have tried to sit and watch his show a couple of times but his style is not mine. I feel very uncomfortable with what I've seen. And I don't think I can bear to hear the words "dominate" or "dominance" one more time from him...


LOL!

OK - I vote for you! You can have it - Cesar your a bad bad man, making a dog afraid of the cat:doh:


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## flyingduster

lol, and yet that youtube clip didn't show the full episode, only the clips that made it look how they wanted. Yes perhaps they portrayed it accurately, but I'd have to see the full episode to know that, I won't listen to how it's portrayed on youtube!


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## Cdnjennga

Ok, I'm on a losing battle here, I can see where I'm a lone voice. I'll just share one last link and then mosey on out of here, still agreeing to disagree!

I like this breakdown of CM's methods: http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php


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## Olie

I'm sold on CM and many others for that matter. I have no need to watch........we are not on the same side of this topic - nor do I want to go digging up tons of portrayals to go back and forth I keep an open mind on training and building relationships with my dogs - everyone is different thank god - I love the diversity in my pact - although none of us are perfect, we are at least stable. Not much more I can ask for right now.


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## spoospirit

*Great handling of a thread that could have really gotten nasty!! Thanks everyone for keeping your heads! Loved reading through it.
*


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## taxtell

It really is amazing how just taking sections of the show can put it in such a different light, though.

Though all of this has given me a lot to think about, I think training is an ever evolving process, no matter what method you subscribe to.


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## roxy25

I watched that full episode with the GSD and I am sure they said they where putting a training collar on the dog. 

I don't know why people have a problems with him. If you don't like his methods use different ones simple as that.


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## taxtell

I was curious about that, in the youtube video, they hyped it up.
If he said he was using the shock collar, then that is a lot more responsible than what they portrayed.


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## bigpoodleperson

> I don't know why people have a problems with him. If you don't like his methods use different ones simple as that.



I think we explained quite well why we have problems with him. I will use other methods. I try to speak up on things i have a problem with. Its like you speaking up in breeder threads. I could say to you just ignore them and dont use those methods yourself. You speak up with things you dont like.


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## poodleholic

Cdnjennga said:


> Ok, I'm on a losing battle here, I can see where I'm a lone voice. I'll just share one last link and then mosey on out of here, still agreeing to disagree!
> 
> I like this breakdown of CM's methods: http://www.drsophiayin.com/dominance.php



Not a lone voice. There are a few of us who get it.


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## plumcrazy

And a few of us who never will...


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## Olie

plumcrazy said:


> And a few of us who never will...


Ditto - 

I worry when I see some people so angry over a man yikes. I can clearly understand not agreeing with some of his methods but a lot are very similar to each other  (other trainers) seems more about not liking him then his methods.....


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## KPoos

Olie said:


> Ditto -
> 
> I worry when I see some people so angry over a man yikes. I can clearly understand not agreeing with some of his methods but a lot are very similar to each other  (other trainers) seems more about not liking him then his methods.....


Okay Olie, you dragged me back into this thread. I think the thing with Cesar is that he clearly states that he more than anything rehabilitates dogs because of the human owners. He also corrects the owner. People don't like to be corrected in things they are doing wrong with their pets. It's like when supernanny comes into people's homes they aren't always receptive to her methods either. I know I think the timeout chair or spot is ridiculous.


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## roxy25

bigpoodleperson said:


> I think we explained quite well why we have problems with him. I will use other methods. I try to speak up on things i have a problem with. Its like you speaking up in breeder threads. I could say to you just ignore them and dont use those methods yourself. You speak up with things you dont like.


I agree but to say he uses abusive methods is ridiculous IMO. I am not abusive to my dogs so I do take offense to some of you saying he is abusive :wacko:

Breeding and dog training are like comparing apples and oranges. There are only good breeding practices and bad ones. with training there are HUNDREDS of methods and all will work if you know what you are doing. Your not going to have bad breeding practices and expect top quality dogs it just never works like that. 

The youtube clip was just ridiculous as well 
This is what I have to say to that "don't believe everything that you breathe, you get a parking violation and a maggot on your sleeve"


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## taxtell

Of course you shouldn't believe everything you read/see/hear, especially on the internet, that's a given.

I even asked in my post if anyone had seen that entire show because the clip seemed biased. I wanted to know if he *said *he was using a shock collar or not.

Say what you want about CM and other methods, hate him or worship him, it doesn't matter. People do whatever they feel is right with their own dogs, which often ends up completely the opposite of what they were trying to do.

I have seen stupid people try to employ a million different types of methods to control their dogs, sometimes they work, other times the dogs end up euthanized or hurting someone.

We have more people than I can shake a stick at that come in to our clinic with absolutely no control over their dogs. I actually LIKE that one of our local shelters requires adopters to do a mandatory obedience class.


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## Harley_chik

I think Cesar has more than his fair share of stupid fans. No offense meant to anyone here, I'm a Cesar fan. I'm sure we've all heard some idiot who thinks an alpha roll is the answer to all behavioral problems and they think they heard that from Cesar. 

I think it's important to point out that the tv show does have a disclaimer and I don't think it's just for legal reasons. If it were, he would just tell the owner what to do while he watched. Instead he always evaluates and then works w/ the dog before getting the owner involved. 

I agree with Roxy that it's fine to dislike him and voice your opinion but using "abusive" goes to far and can be offensive. The word "abuse" gets thrown around too much anyway. According to some, breeding is abusive, dog shows are abusive, dressing your dog is abusive, grooming competitions are abusive. If you look at the UK, Crufts is no longer broadcasted and there was legislation proposed to ban clothes for dogs. Cesar is not beating the dogs, he's not choking them out, he doesn't tell everyone to buy a shock collar and use it innappropriately. If someone misinterprets his methods, they can just as easily misinterpret someone elses. I have to question anyone who gets all of their dog training knowledge from a 30 minute tv show anyway. Cesar has books, a magazine and website (which aren't edited by television producers). I would also hope that no one would limit themselves to only one trainers advice w/o at least checking out some of the others.


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## creativeparti

Harley_chik said:


> I think Cesar has more than his fair share of stupid fans. No offense meant to anyone here, I'm a Cesar fan. I'm sure we've all heard some idiot who thinks an alpha roll is the answer to all behavioral problems and they think they heard that from Cesar.
> 
> I think it's important to point out that the tv show does have a disclaimer and I don't think it's just for legal reasons. If it were, he would just tell the owner what to do while he watched. Instead he always evaluates and then works w/ the dog before getting the owner involved.
> 
> I agree with Roxy that it's fine to dislike him and voice your opinion but using "abusive" goes to far and can be offensive. The word "abuse" gets thrown around too much anyway. According to some, breeding is abusive, dog shows are abusive, dressing your dog is abusive, grooming competitions are abusive. If you look at the UK, Crufts is no longer broadcasted and there was legislation proposed to ban clothes for dogs. Cesar is not beating the dogs, he's not choking them out, he doesn't tell everyone to buy a shock collar and use it innappropriately. If someone misinterprets his methods, they can just as easily misinterpret someone elses. I have to question anyone who gets all of their dog training knowledge from a 30 minute tv show anyway. Cesar has books, a magazine and website (which aren't edited by television producers). I would also hope that no one would limit themselves to only one trainers advice w/o at least checking out some of the others.


100% agree with you.....


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## Leooonie

I agree with what cowpony said.
I've never heard of Pirelli(is thats correct..?) but Milan cause a revolution over here in Britain.
My dog trainer said himself, that he's caused alot more business to come in, just because people have been using Milans training methods on their own.
The disclaimer at the start of the programs are generally ignored, and this is where people go wrong.
If you do have behavioural issues, the start is with a dog trainer.
If said trainer is experiance and knowledgable, they'll sue only the methods specific for your particular dog.
The problem is, not all dogs respond in the same way. you do get stubborn dogs in which treats and toys alone will not suffice..

Whereas you get the dogs which correctional methods (such as mine) are mostly useless, with the dog being more play/food motivated.
I think a mix of all the ways is better than being an unchanging single method


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## Olie

Leooonie said:


> I agree with what cowpony said.
> I've never heard of Pirelli(is thats correct..?) but Milan cause a revolution over here in Britain.
> My dog trainer said himself, that he's caused alot more business to come in, just because people have been using Milans training methods on their own.


hwell: You know what I believe you were probably told that!

Some people like their way or no way, and what a great sell for a "trainer"


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## Olie

newpoodlemum said:


> 100% agree with you.....


CM's website says he is coming to the UK in March! How exciting!


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## plumcrazy

Leooonie said:


> I've never heard of Pirelli(is thats correct..?) but Milan cause a revolution over here in Britain.


It's Parelli...

http://www.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/blog/2009 UK Celebration at the new LG Arena at the NEC


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## creativeparti

Olie said:


> CM's website says he is coming to the UK in March! How exciting!


i know i cant get tickets tho such a shame.... i dont use all his methords but i do like the ones i do use


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## Olie

I would agree not all methods I would even use because I don't need too, thankfully I don't have the red zone case or need to do alpha rolls.

Again I really think in some cases it's the people that take things into their own hands without the proper thought process that they should. Most of us are not trained or experienced in some of the CM methods NOR do their dogs suffer from some of the issues CM addresses. 

What is ironic to me is this - when originally asked why is it that people think CM is so mean..........?
The overall large majority of responses were not liking his methods and few videos - that a couple people took to extremes (not Taxtell) bu calling it abuse.....But really there was not a lot of detail to the dislike of methods.......there were a lot of comparisons to other trainers - which is GREAT you can't have enough scenarios IMO - but again most of them were similar to each other......so I guess the answer to me is still up in the air. But I will SO agree with several posts in here - its an individual thing - its what fits the dog. And clearly at the end of the day we have to have an open mind....or not But I do respect the opinions of everyone that responded.


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## bigpoodleperson

I just reread the whole thread. I could not find anywhere where someone called Ceasers methods Abuse.


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## Cdnjennga

bigpoodleperson said:


> I just reread the whole thread. I could not find anywhere where someone called Ceasers methods Abuse.


Agreed, haha, that's been bothering me but I was just staying quiet! I said he kicked the dog but I just mischose my word. What I meant was that the reason the dog redirected its aggression on CM was because he tapped it. I wasn't saying the dog went after him because he abused him. It seems someone interpreted what I said to mean I think CM is abusive and it carried on from there. I don't like his methods, but I don't think he is abusive. I take the words abusive and abuser very seriously and don't throw them around lightly.


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## KPoos

That might have been me, sorry. I did read that he "kicked" the dog and kicking a dog is abusive so I probably misinterpreted what you said.


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## Olie

bigpoodleperson said:


> I just reread the whole thread. I could not find anywhere where someone called Ceasers methods Abuse.




Wow this is still going and we are nit picking a word that was or wasn't used - kicking and chocking a dog is abusive in my book. Sorry that I used abuse. I'm not sure what else I would have used hwell:

:deadhorse:


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## roxy25

Olie said:


> Wow this is still going and we are nit picking a word that was or wasn't used - kicking and chocking a dog is abusive in my book. Sorry that I used abuse. I'm not sure what else I would have used hwell:
> 
> :deadhorse:


Yes a small nudge is kicking LMAO ! And the choking = no air getting to the lungs CM does not choke the dogs until they pass out, the dogs can clearly still breath.....

I must be the most abusive owner then someone call AC on me !


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