# Reducing pit bulls in shelters



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Hmm... yeah... proud owner of one of those "nasty pit bulls"....

2021-9-22 Leo & Lily DSC_4538 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr

Backyard breeders and puppy mills aren't going to go away any time soon, since people want what they want when they want it, and if the wait for a decent breeder is too long, or they get turned down by a decent breeder, they will just go elsewhere to get a dog. 

Ideally, yes, the breeder should take the dog back. However, there are also people who either forget that they are supposed to give the dog back if they can't keep it any more, or else dump it on purpose to avoid letting the breeder know that they didn't want it any more, or else their family members don't bother to find out where the dog is supposed to go after someone dies or is incapacitated, and figure the shelter is as good an option as any. 

In Canada, only dogs registered with the CKC can be sold as purebred, and have to be chipped or tattooed before leaving the breeder, who is the one responsible for getting the registration done.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Forcing unethical breeders to take back puppies isn't doing those pups any favors. They will probably be killed or dumped somewhere. Or just shoved in a crate and left there. If people are unethical about producing the pups, I don't imagine they would be any better about taking responsibility for them once they are not cute and salable any more.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

reraven123 said:


> Forcing unethical breeders to take back puppies isn't doing those pups any favors. They will probably be killed or dumped somewhere. Or just shoved in a crate and left there. If people are unethical about producing the pups, I don't imagine they would be any better about taking responsibility for them once they are not cute and salable any more.


I was thinking if they were required by law to take them back they would have to show the state they are capable of handling returned dogs.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> Hmm... yeah... proud owner of one of those "nasty pit bulls"....
> 
> 2021-9-22 Leo & Lily DSC_4538 by Rosemary Elwell, on Flickr
> 
> ...


The pit bulls in my neighborhood that are not allowed per the contract you sign when you move to the neighborhood have been aggressive and owned by idiots that won't keep them in their house and let small children walk them alone. The small child got pulled into the road by the dog she couldn't control and almost got hit by a car. 
There is no microchiping requirement in my state. That could be something required by the state before the puppy is sold. The registration in this case would be with the state as part of the license requirements. Maybe the USA is the only country that does this.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Pit Bulls are/were a banned breed here in ON. 
Too bad... I'd have one.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

Countryboy said:


> Pit Bulls are/were a banned breed here in ON.
> Too bad... I'd have one.


Probably because they don't want a shelter full of them. We have 40 in our county shelter. The county next to us has over hundred of them. 
Half the ones in our local shelter are strays that have either been dumped or the owners let them run loose with no identification.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Fun fact: BSL doesn't stop dog bite.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I_love_dogs said:


> Would it be reasonable to require microchipping prior to sale? I have always microchipped my dogs when they were spayed or neutered.


Yes, it is possible. Maizie came to me microchipped. She was 10 weeks old and had it done by 8 weeks old. 

My sister and family just went through the heartbreak of having to euthanize their rescued (literally off the streets) pitbull/poodle-ish mix. He bit my father when he visited them and that was it. They have three young children and would never take the risk of him biting them. I feel terrible for pitbulls, but you're playing Russian roulette when you own one, imho.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I don't think the problem is pit bulls themselves. Back before the current pit bull craze the problem dogs were German Shepherds and Dobermans. If BSL made it too difficult for people to own pit bulls, then people would just turn to another breed. Twenty years from now we might find the shelters full of ill bred Malinois or Catahoula curs instead of pit bulls.

A combination of social pressure and reasonable legislation is probably the best hope. In my town there hasn't really been a discussion of breed specific legislation because there has been zero social tolerance of any sort of irresponsible dog ownership. A generation ago there were free roaming dogs. Older people in town have stories of cats being torn apart, garbage cans tipped over, and children bitten by pets which went home to a meal and a warm bed at night. People said enough is enough. There are no loose dogs now. Neighbors will capture a dog which strays from home and file nuisance complaints about dogs left outside to bark. That kind of collective pressure is what will stop dogs from being irresponsibly bred and dumped.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

cowpony said:


> A combination of social pressure and reasonable legislation is probably the best hope. In my town there hasn't really been a discussion of breed specific legislation because there has been zero social tolerance of any sort of irresponsible dog ownership. A generation ago there were free roaming dogs.


I used to get followed out walking by loose dogs. They had boundaries and would pass me off to the next dog to watch. They liked me. It wasn't until I was much older that I found out several of the dogs were know to be aggressive and had bitten people.
Our laws are terrible. They wait until a dog kills another dog for the second time before doing anything. We have fencing requirements that ban electric fences. They don't enforce those either so you get dogs running at you through hedges because the owner forgot to change the batteries.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I_love_dogs said:


> I used to get followed out walking by loose dogs. They had boundaries and would pass me off to the next dog to watch. They liked me. It wasn't until I was much older that I found out several of the dogs were know to be aggressive and had bitten people.
> Our laws are terrible. They wait until a dog kills another dog for the second time before doing anything. We have fencing requirements that ban electric fences. They don't enforce those either so you get dogs running at you through hedges because the owner forgot to change the batteries.


Our town regulations are pretty reasonable, and I've never heard complaint about the enforcement. A dog is deemed vicious after a single unprovoked bite on a human or two unprovoked bites of other animals. There are various exceptions for dogs protecting themselves, their homes, their families, or their young, even if the dog was mistaken about the ill intent. However, the owner could still be held liable for, say, leaving the dog in a situation where it felt it needed to defend its home against a cleaning crew. Once a dog is declared vicious, it must be kept in an enclosure and may not leave the property except for veterinary treatment. If there are further issues the town has the option to either order the dog to be euthanized immediately or order the owner to remove the dog from town within seven days. Ironically, the vicious dog section was drafted in response to a Golden Retriever. The owners were in complete denial about the dog's issues, which included tackling and biting the neighbors kids as they ran playing outside.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Ironically enough, in my house, it's the Poodle who would bite someone, given half a chance (he is not given the chance), and and pibble who loves people and is scared of other dogs. The only dog I ever gave away for biting was a Cocker Spaniel x Dachshund cross, who nipped my mom as she was letting him.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Not really an area for much legislation in our democratic republic. If laws were made and able to be actively enforced (at the expense of what other laws would go unaddressed, as well as our liberty), people who breed the types of dogs you describe could be more likely to dump them. If forced into boxes of requirements for their dogs, children in a family could suffer for want of food or resources that legally had to go to dogs before them.

It's an education and not a law situation, imho. Not getting into the Pitbull argument here; lived through it many years on CL. But broad force and authoritarianism are not likely to be welcomed in the U.S. (I pray), some current exceptions apart.

Educate citizens about dogs, as breeds are not generically replaceable for one another - despite some rescues' insistence otherwise. This is where we can influence, imho.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I have lived in countries where pit bulls are completely illegal. In one country there were no bully type breeds at all. The BSL is so extreme that it took one family years of lawsuits to be allowed to import their neutered English Bull Terrier. 

In every country there has been one or several 'shelter breeds'. The type of dogs that are overly represented in shelters and rescues. The common theme that I see is that they are breeds which are easy enough to handle that they become common place and easy to get (often on impulse) but hard enough that they are often too much to handle. There are also national variations due to cultures so here in Belgium you have a lot of Malinois as they are one of the national breeds. In the UK you would see a lot of staffordshire bull terriers and lurchers. In Iceland (where there is very extreme BSL) it was border collie mixes and huskies. 

Whether it is bullies or shepherds there needs to be a conversation about why certain breeds are so overrepresented in the rescue systems and why they don't necessarily reflect the most numerous breeds in the population. Like here in Belgium I see a dachshund pretty much everytime I leave the house but I hardly ever see them in the shelters. Same with labradors, probably the top of the popularity lists in all of the countries that I have lived in but not often seen in rescues. 

To be clear the reason why isn't because these breeds are the most troublesome. There are much more 'game' 'driven' and 'protective' breeds out there. That isn't to understate that breeds such as the pit bull, malinois and the BCs don't have traits that make them unsuitable for a lot of homes. Especially when coupled with irresponsible breeding and behavioural issues (including those that landed them in the rescues in the first place and those issues which they aquired from being in shelters). But its just a lot more complicated than that. 

We need to address why certain breeds have the tendency to become so numerous that they start to significantly outnumber the number of homes which are appropriate for them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I_love_dogs said:


> The state controls the sale of dogs.


I'm not trying to be contentious but how does the state, any state control the sale of dogs?

Dogs are considered property in the eyes of the law and as property, responsibility falls on the owner.

Breeding is not controlled or regulated by any laws beyond possibly zoning and those relating directly to animal welfare such as that of animals kept at zoos and used in laboratories, as well as animals who are commercially bred and sold like those in puppy mills.

The only "licensing" for breeders is for those that meet or exceed the minimum number of breeding animals kept. This is where the USDA and/or the state steps in, assuming that someone has made a complaint about conditions or something is found on an inspection.

The suggestions you make re microchipping, taking the dog back can't be legislated as things stand now.

Breeding resembles a business but only in the underpinnings. Outside of those "licensed" breeders, all that a breeder does for their dogs is voluntary.

While I'd love to see all breeders stepping up to best practices, the fact is that it's really up to the owners to step up.

There's no practical way to do this but, as with driving, it's too bad that all owners don't have to take some basic courses in managing and training a dog.


The city I live in removed BSL last year and replaced it with Dangerous Dog language.

This is what I wrote in part to the Public Safety Committee last year on learning of the change.

_BSL to eliminate an entire domesticated breed or mix including more than one domesticated breed is unfair to those of the breed or mix who don't exhibit the behavior/s.

We might be tempted to say that since it's wrong to do this with people, and it is by generalizing and stereotyping, it's also wrong to do that with domesticated dogs. 

The difference is that humans are rarely purpose bred to perform specific tasks. Domestic animals are.

Genetics are strong determiners in behavior. Environment also plays a big role. This includes their owners and how the dogs are trained and treated but both sides need to be considered and accounted for.

BSL is proactive for the potential targets but unfair to the targeted breeds/dogs and owners until there is cause.

Dangerous Dog laws only come into play after the damage or death has occurred, That's not fair to the traumatized, injured, or dead.

Both ways are unfair to someone._


My city encourages microchipping by reducing the animal licensing cost but the $5 off is hardly incentive, no more than doubling the cost if the animal is intact.

Some countries are passing laws declaring some animals to be "sentient beings" with rights and some legal standing. The US is sort of middling in this. This broader approach might make a difference.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

In my state, the sale of dogs is regulated. It requires shots and and a vet to certify that the dog isn't sick. Adding the microchip requirement could be done as a condition of sale.
You have up to a year to return the dog in case of congenital disease or the breeder lying about the breed, sex, or health or receive compensation. It thought this was puppies only, but it is all dogs. 
It exemption adoptions from not for profit humane organization. We have puppy mills being run as pretend rescue organizations. 
I also see dogs for "adoption" instead of sale. They are probably breaking state law. 
As to the overrepresentation, we didn't have that when I was a kid. For the past decade or so, our shelters are 80-90% pit bulls.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I_love_dogs said:


> In my state, the sale of dogs is regulated. It requires shots and and a vet to certify that the dog isn't sick. Adding the microchip requirement could be done as a condition of sale.
> You have up to a year to return the dog in case of congenital disease or the breeder lying about the breed, sex, or health or receive compensation. It thought this was puppies only, but it is all dogs.
> It exemption adoptions from not for profit humane organization. We have puppy mills being run as pretend rescue organizations.
> I also see dogs for "adoption" instead of sale. They are probably breaking state law.
> As to the overrepresentation, we didn't have that when I was a kid. For the past decade or so, our shelters are 80-90% pit bulls.


I think there are more pits now than there used to be because we have curtailed the homeless population for other breeds. And also people who rent are often restricted from breeds like pits.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

Raindrops said:


> I think there are more pits now than there used to be because we have curtailed the homeless population for other breeds. And also people who rent are often restricted from breeds like pits.


In my area, most of the rentals are weight based. 25lbs and 50lbs are common limits. The new corporate rentals that are buying things up are no pets. And maybe that is the answer as to why there are so many pit bulls. There puppies are cheap. Many of the people who get them don't get them fixed because it is "too expensive" which means they really can't afford the dog. So they end up with puppies they sell or give away. Any reduction to their income sends the dog to the shelter.
You don't see this in other breeds because they are charging more for the puppies. Anything that is cute and fluffy is now hundreds of dollars if not thousands. The people that can afford to pay that much can afford basic care and the breeders don't want competition (even for the mixes) so they write it into the contract.
So the answer may be funding more low cost spay and neuter clinics.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In my area pups from shelters and rescues are desexed before they go up for adoption even if young for the most part. There are also a good number of vets who do low cost desexing.

Brees specific legislation is not a particularly good way to deal with dangerous dogs. Let's face it any dog can be dangerous, even a chihuahua can bite a baby crawling on the floor on the face and small dogs are often excused for poor behavior because of their size. They don't get the training they need.

I had a training appointment for a home with a 6 year old pittie last week. Problems became magnified by the birth of a baby about 2 1/2 months ago. But the problems didn't arise because of the baby. The whole family is clueless except the mother of the infant. They don't understand the real dangers of this dog who has given multiple broken skin bites, starting with biting a neighbor the first day they had it. I recommended two things (I did not feel qualified, and found the grandmother of the baby to be a Karen type): get a certified behaviorist; get the dog out of the house. I really think this dog is not adoptable through any responsible shelter or rescue so getting this dog out of the house is most likely the result in a euthanasia. They will keep it though because they love it. This is part of what happens in my new career, but it was the first time I felt so (fill in an adjective: sad, mad, frustrated...). In this case the problem dog is a pittie but it could have been any breed or mix.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> In my area pups from shelters and rescues are desexed before they go up for adoption even if young for the most part. There are also a good number of vets who do low cost desexing.
> 
> Brees specific legislation is not a particularly good way to deal with dangerous dogs. Let's face it any dog can be dangerous, even a chihuahua can bite a baby crawling on the floor on the face and small dogs are often excused for poor behavior because of their size. They don't get the training they need.
> 
> I had a training appointment for a home with a 6 year old pittie last week. Problems became magnified by the birth of a baby about 2 1/2 months ago. But the problems didn't arise because of the baby. The whole family is clueless except the mother of the infant. They don't understand the real dangers of this dog who has given multiple broken skin bites, starting with biting a neighbor the first day they had it. I recommended two things (I did not feel qualified, and found the grandmother of the baby to be a Karen type): get a certified behaviorist; get the dog out of the house. I really think this dog is not adoptable through any responsible shelter or rescue so getting this dog out of the house is most likely the result in a euthanasia. They will keep it though because they love it. This is part of what happens in my new career, but it was the first time I felt so (fill in an adjective: sad, mad, frustrated...). In this case the problem dog is a pittie but it could have been any breed or mix.


We had a neighbor whose cockapoo took a disliking to the new baby. They were able to keep them separate with baby gates. Something that isn't as easy with large dogs. Unlike the pitbull, it only dislikes the child. It showed no aggression to anyone else so they easily re-homed him with an older couple. 
Our shelters require desexing as well. But they get a lot of adults that aren't desexed. 
We have a single low cost spay/neuter for a county of 600+ people.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In this case the dog has a history of biting people. It is not simply dog dislikes baby. Sadly I don't see a good future in this situation.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I think it is all just a mess and I don't know what the solution is. Backyard breeders are going to breed. States/cities/municipalities don't have the time or funding to really do anything. Shelters are full and very few of them euthanize anymore. I've met some great pits and had run ins with some not so great ones. I'm currently nervous because there is a large, intact male that runs loose in my neighborhood. He visits my neighbors yard at all times of the day and night. All he would need to do is hop the fence and he'd be in my backyard. His owner doesn't care. Animal Control has been called dozens of times but doesn't do anything. I've watched joggers and people out on walks be chased down the street by him. But what do you do when the people in control don't know what to do? It's sad. No one wants to see dogs suffer.


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## Meganf1027 (Oct 22, 2018)

My experience with pitbulls has always been good.. in fact, I had one guard and take a bite for my Poodle when a neighbors loose dog came running over to attack (that dog was a border collie type mix). I think any breed of dog has the risk of biting. It is a shame the shelter situation is what it is though, and it’s hard when people want predictable family dogs. As far as microchipping, I’m always surprised by how few people chip their dogs. My puppy came to me at 8 weeks already chipped and I registered her immediately.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I have not read all the comments as this is a very touchy subject for me. I just wanted to point out that when it comes to biting I agree that any dog has the potential to bite but the average dog bites and let's go. When pit-type dogs bite they tend to rip and tear flesh. No other breeds mutilate, maim, and kill as many people and other animals as pits do each year.


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## Meganf1027 (Oct 22, 2018)

I’m sure we all have our own experiences with different breeds, but I’ve had my fair share of run ins with different dogs coming after my Poodles- only one was a pit. Two Alaskan malamutes tore a toy poodle of mine to shreds. But other breeds don’t get the attention pits seem to. 



Puppy Love said:


> I have not read all the comments as this is a very touchy subject for me. I just wanted to point out that when it comes to biting I agree that any dog has the potential to bite but the average dog bites and let's go. When pit-type dogs bite they tend to rip and tear flesh. No other breeds mutilate, maim, and kill as many people and other animals as pits do each year.


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## blkdog (Nov 22, 2011)

I love all dogs, big, small, pittie, whatever, I think dogs are absolutely amazing. Treat them with kindness and compassion and you have a bestie for life. The problem isn't the dogs, it's the humans.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Meganf1027 said:


> I’m sure we all have our own experiences with different breeds, but I’ve had my fair share of run ins with different dogs coming after my Poodles- only one was a pit. Two Alaskan malamutes tore a toy poodle of mine to shreds. But other breeds don’t get the attention pits seem to.


I agree we've all had our experiences and run-ins but there are a lot of statistics, news articles, videos, and research that has been done and there is good reason IMO why pit-type dogs have a reputation. If you're on Facebook take a look at the group Dangerous Dogs, or The Pit Bull Propaganda Machine, The Pit Bull Problem, etc. if you can stomach it. Or just try Dogsbite.org to see which breeds do the most damage. My experience has been that most people don't start researching until they've lost a human friend or family member to a pit bull.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Oof this thread is a mine field but let me just add- 

Every breed has a type of home that’s suitable for its needs and only really becomes known as a “bad” breed when repeatedly placed in homes that are not suited well for it. One man’s “problem” breed is another man’s amazing working dog. And that’s all Ill say on that.

As for the shelter problem, well we have to keep those dogs in homes. Dogs with homes are inherently not in the shelter. So public education on training and responsible purchasing and ownership. Low cost vet clinics, temporary long term housing for animals displaced by moving situations, pet food and supplies banks for low income and transitional situations, and low cost training. Lowering the barriers to keeping a pet will keep more pets in homes. Educating the public on responsible purchasing and adopting options will lower the demand for unethical breeding situations. Long story short,I would like to see more resources and less legislation. The people that will be hurt the most legislation are reputable breeders and marginalized populations. Mills will always find a loop hole as long as the demand is there.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Puppy Love said:


> I agree we've all had our experiences and run-ins but there are a lot of statistics, news articles, videos, and research that has been done and there is good reason IMO why pit-type dogs have a reputation. If you're on Facebook take a look at the group Dangerous Dogs, or The Pit Bull Propaganda Machine, The Pit Bull Problem, etc. if you can stomach it. Or just try Dogsbite.org to see which breeds do the most damage. My experience has been that most people don't start researching until they've lost a human friend or family member to a pit bull.


I think we can all just agree to disagree here. No one is going to change anyone else’s mind here about pit bulls and we’re on a slippery slope to a really nasty conversation. So maybe lets focus back on solutions to the shelter problem with less focus on pitties. This is the “poodle” forum after all


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