# Is a doodle/merle breeder a deal breaker?



## luliol (Aug 26, 2020)

Hi everyone, 
I am currently looking for my first poodle and have been researching breeders in my area. I am wondering if a breeder that breeds standard poodles as well as poodle mixes or merle poodles (two different breeders) should be off my list for that reason alone. Both breeders are CKC registered, do health testing, have a health guarantee, lifetime take-back policy and seem selective in picking homes for their puppies. From their facebook pages and reviews they do not seem like a back yard breeder or puppy mill situation. We haven't met either in person yet but they do require that before getting a puppy so we would be meeting them and the parents and be seeing the kennel/home to get a better feeling about it if we were to go forward with one of them. Should I steer clear of these breeders solely because they offer poodle mixes or merles? Would that be a deal breaker for you? A lot of other breeders I've contacted have 2+ year wait-lists (which is fine but I would like to have a dog sooner if possible), are out of my budget or just have not replied to me at all so I just want to make sure I am making a smart decision and not an impulsive one. Can a doodle/merle breeder be ethical?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would never buy a puppy that in doing so would mean I was supporting breeding of mixes. That would apply to both mentioned breeders since the merle gene (which is accompanied by a host of problems in its own) does not naturally occur in poodles, meaning that there are non-poodles in the background of those lines. I would run away.

These breeders can be ethical or not, just a breeders of poodles can be ethical or not.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Merle poodles are a hard pass for reasons mentioned above.

At least in theory, I'm more lenient of poodle crosses. There are ethical breeders trying to establish a new breed, whether they're Golden Doodles or Labradoodles or whatever else is out there now. In practice, however, I don't know how I'd discern which breeders are ethical, or how far along they are in ensuring the health and temperament that I wanted.


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## Olive Love (Jul 22, 2020)

If you are looking for a purebred poodle, then no. If not, I would still make sure that the breeder is reputable before adopting. If you can adopt a mixbreed and the breeder is reputable, I would consider the breeder.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I would definitely pass. I’m horrified at how pricey these mixed breeds (they’re basically mutts who used to cost 50$ before this designer dog trend started) cost. You can see them at 3-4 times the cost of well bred dogs, and they can’t even be registered.

As for merle poodles, they’re not purebred, so to me that’s just another way to make more money by selling «rare» dogs.


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## HannahMarieJ (Jun 23, 2020)

Liz said:


> Merle poodles are a hard pass for reasons mentioned above.
> 
> At least in theory, I'm more lenient of poodle crosses. There are ethical breeders trying to establish a new breed, whether they're Golden Doodles or Labradoodles or whatever else is out there now. In practice, however, I don't know how I'd discern which breeders are ethical, or how far along they are in ensuring the health and temperament that I wanted.


I agree with Liz. I would not be interested in a breeder breeding merles as you could end up with a puppy with a merle gene (and possibly all the accompanying health issues) without even knowing it. While I personally am not interested in a doodle, I would not immediately rule out a doodle breeder if they checked ALL my other boxes. But that’s just my opinion.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

Puppy fever is well understood here .

That said, you're smart to question and research what makes a conscientious, quality breeder.

As lily cd re wrote with confirmation by the others, as well as various genetic studies, the merle gene is not naturally occurring in the poodle genetic makeup so it was introduced to poodles by another breed.

This particular link is not from a study but cites many of them:





Merle Pattern in Poodles Synopsis by Carol Paragon


Shared by LYNDA N OLIVER·MONDAY, JANUARY 8, 2018 A new but scary trend in poodles. For those that don't know merle is a pattern not a colour, a unique and eye catching one for sure but it is dangerous to our standard poodle breed. Thank you Carol for compiling this informative synopsis in a way...




harveymichele.wixsite.com





That means that, a merle poodle is not a purebred poodle and any further breedings of that merle poodle may very adversely affect offspring and future generations.

Additionally, I wonder what quality of poodles would be used? A conscientious, quality breeder would simply not allow their dogs to be crossbred, knowingly. This is a big reason why full registration, including breeding right of their puppies and official registration of their offspring is so carefully thought out and contracted.

Excluding merles, regarding crossbreeding, as Liz mentioned there are organizations such as the ALAA
Home-ALAA
is working to create a new, genetically stable and reproducible breed of the poodle and lab. Sires and dams are health tested to their respective breed standards (see OFA https://www.ofa.org/ for those standards). This is a goal which will take many generations. Again, I wonder about the quality of the poodles (and I'm sure lab enthusiasts feel the same) that are bred.

I have a hard time imagining myself deliberately supporting a breeder who's producing merles or mixed breeds. Quality purebred poodle breeders are doing so much, health and diversity testing, studying pedigrees and on to bring us the best poodles we can have. I want to support their efforts.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)




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## wrathfulmom (Aug 9, 2017)

Liz said:


> At least in theory, I'm more lenient of poodle crosses. There are ethical breeders trying to establish a new breed, whether they're Golden Doodles or Labradoodles or whatever else is out there now. In practice, however, I don't know how I'd discern which breeders are ethical, or how far along they are in ensuring the health and temperament that I wanted.


The breeder I got Willow from occasionally produced Goldendoodles. I know on the poodle side her stud is UKC champion (parti poodle, AKC registered as well) has had all recommended genetic testing and OFA. It was obviously not a deal breaker for me. I don’t know anything about the golden female but based on how she runs the poodle side of her business I would expect at minimum the golden had appropriate genetic testing and OFA as well.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Doodle breeders tend to be very profit focused. When I'm looking for a poodle I want a breeder that is focused on producing good healthy poodles that continue the lines that preserve the dogs we love so much.

Merle poodles are not good for the breed. I have stated before in other threads why they are a bad idea. Even if it was naturally occurring, which it wasn't. Any breeder breeding merles is not reputable in my eyes. In other breeds with merle it must be carefully managed. It should not be introduced to a new breed like poodles.


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## Fonly (Aug 27, 2020)

I am fine with Doodles. I'd personally love a Labradoodle or Aussiedoodle in due time, if I went the Doodle route. Currently it seems like Miniature Australian Shepherds (and possibly a Standard Poodle) from here on out though. I am also fine with people breeding, ALMOST, anything - so long as it's to the same morals, and at least somewhat the standards (that's another topic though), of what is considered a reputable breeder. Sure, there are many dogs in shelters needing homes, but that isn't always the route a person wishes to go. And I don't feel it's everyone's responsibility to pick up after those who decide to dump their dogs in shelters, need to bring their dog to a shelter for any reason, breeders not screening their homes and unfit or incorrect homes for such dog deciding to bring their dogs to the shelter because they also didn't research, irresponsible breeders dumping puppies they couldn't sell, etc. Don't get me wrong, I support rescue as well, and would adopt (and currently have two rescue dogs I took in), but also would go to a breeder of what I desired over adopting - even if the breed or mix I wanted was available at the time.


Pictures of Poodle Dogs on Animal Picture Society


Whether for a mix or a purebred. Paying that amount, is a personal choice, I'm not positive I'd pay that much myself, but if it came down to a puppy I'd really like of a certain breed from a certain breeder, maybe. Though, those who are greedy and selling for that high of price because of demand, I wouldn't consider to be a good breeder, and wouldn't trust their breeding program or them as people.

As for Doodles as breeds, depending on the mix - of course you'll get different personalities and types. I've also heard within each individual Doodle breeds, that there is inconsistency. I don't have much experience with any Doodles though. I've only met one Miniature Goldendoodle and one Labradoodle. Both of which were quite rambunctious, but very nice dogs.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I honestly don't know what I'd do anymore. I like doodles well most of them but I won't pay the kind of money they ask for a mix especially since many of them don't have a genetic background on their breeding stock. However I do see some that are health testing and have been breeding to improve their line of doodle. So I think you need to check health tests before plunking down any money. I don't know much about merle or its problems. If I were to buy a breed that isn't recognized as allowing that color I would not buy but I don't know how it would affect mix breed dogs.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)




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## Thomazine (Aug 9, 2020)

The doodle breeders around me do not seem to guarantee health beyond one year, which is a bit of a red flag, and the cost is insane. The nearest doodle breeder charges $3000 for a doodle puppy with three poodle grandparents, with vague promises of good 'lines' but no actual testing results available - and oh yes, you can't visit. Pick your puppy from a photo! 

I was honestly shocked when I started enquiring with Better Bred poodle breeders to find that a purebred puppy with OFA-tested parents and grandparents would actually be considerably cheaper than a cross-bred labradoodle or goldendoodle without any meaningful testing.


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## luliol (Aug 26, 2020)

Thanks everyone for the replies, the puppy fever is real here so its helpful to get some feedback from poodle lovers. Just to clarify we aren't interested in getting a poodle mix or a merle poodle, I'm just considering if these breeders should be out of the question because of the fact that they breed doodles or merles as well as purebred standard poodles in solid colours. I agree with what everyone is saying about breeding merles and mixes in general, my dilemma is coming from the fact that otherwise they offer what I'm looking for in a breeder.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Thomazine said:


> The doodle breeders around me do not seem to guarantee health beyond one year, which is a bit of a red flag, and the cost is insane. The nearest doodle breeder charges $3000 for a doodle puppy with three poodle grandparents, with vague promises of good 'lines' but no actual testing results available - and oh yes, you can't visit. Pick your puppy from a photo!
> 
> I was honestly shocked when I started enquiring with Better Bred poodle breeders to find that a purebred puppy with OFA-tested parents and grandparents would actually be considerably cheaper than a cross-bred labradoodle or goldendoodle without any meaningful testing.


This is so true, re reading...if I wanted a poodle what I wouldn't do is buy one from someone who sells doodles. (just not ethical in my opinion) I think your either into poodles and their genetic testing or your into doodles and whatever is their testing. Regardless I would want to see testing as both breeds have genetic health issues.


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## luliol (Aug 26, 2020)

Thomazine said:


> The doodle breeders around me do not seem to guarantee health beyond one year, which is a bit of a red flag, and the cost is insane. The nearest doodle breeder charges $3000 for a doodle puppy with three poodle grandparents, with vague promises of good 'lines' but no actual testing results available - and oh yes, you can't visit. Pick your puppy from a photo!
> 
> I was honestly shocked when I started enquiring with Better Bred poodle breeders to find that a purebred puppy with OFA-tested parents and grandparents would actually be considerably cheaper than a cross-bred labradoodle or goldendoodle without any meaningful testing.


 Both of these breeders have a two year guarantee and price wise are at the lower end of normal for my area.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I understood that you were not looking for a doodle but I still would cross these breeders off because they are producing dogs that I don't think should be purpose bred even if they have what you are looking for. As a loose analogy if you wanted to buy a computer but the company also promoted policies that interfered with net neutrality then I would look for a different company producing computers that would be useful to me but that was an active advocate in favor of net neutrality.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m surprised by the number of people who voted they would buy a poodle from someone who breeds “merle poodles”. Merle poodles are a mix, they are not a poodle. I wouldn’t trust them because those “poodles“ they are selling are probably the puppies from the merle x poodle breeding that didn’t come out with a merle pattern. IOW you are unlikely to get a quality, 100% poodle puppy from this kind of breeder. It’s doubtful the poodle parents will have all the appropriate testing done, nor will care be put into choosing the right dam and sire to achieve a health quality puppy.

My friends who breed often travel great distances and spend a lot of time researching before they find the right dog to breed to their dam. OTOH I know someone with a smart and sweet mini poodle with very bad conformation (including short legs) who will use him as a stud dog to anyone willing to pay the price. I suspect he’s part of the DNA of a number of poodle mixes in my community. 

I’ve seen several vision impaired deaf double merle mixes and it’s sad to see dogs that were deliberately bred with lose of vision and hearing to have more expensive pretty merle puppies to sell for high prices.


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## luliol (Aug 26, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> I understood that you were not looking for a doodle but I still would cross these breeders off because they are producing dogs that I don't think should be purpose bred even if they have what you are looking for. As a loose analogy if you wanted to buy a computer but the company also promoted policies that interfered with net neutrality then I would look for a different company producing computers that would be useful to me but that was an active advocate in favor of net neutrality.


No that's a good analogy and really reflects how I'm feeling. If it's not ethical to breed merles and mixes than it doesn't really matter what else they're doing. I do want to support a breeder that is passionate about breeding the best poodles possible, its just a little disheartening not hearing back from some or facing a two year wait. But I think we will keep waiting.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

luliol said:


> No that's a good analogy and really reflects how I'm feeling. If it's not ethical to breed merles and mixes than it doesn't really matter what else they're doing. I do want to support a breeder that is passionate about breeding the best poodles possible, its just a little disheartening not hearing back from some or facing a two year wait. But I think we will keep waiting.


Unfortunately it's a very hard time to find a puppy from a reputable breeder. Normally it is not near so difficult.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I happened to go on kijiji the other day and see the prices people were asking for dogs. I have a lot more sympathy for people who want more affordable options.

There was a litter of Rottweiler Golden Retriever crosses for $3500 each! When I was a kid that would be called a breed cross "sneaky neighbour's dog" litter. No litter was priced less than $1800. Its insanity. My dad's dog is going into her first heat right now and I am deliberately not telling him what puppies are going for until after she is spayed, I suspect it might be too much temptation for him.

To be honest, I personally wouldnt buy a puppy right now. Socialization is very important to me, and most of the best socialization opportunities I had with Annie are unavailable right now. I suspect some waitlists may get shorter as pandemic puppy wanters go back to work and realize a dog is not a good idea. Best of luck in your search.

Back to your original question - no, because I want to support ethical breeding. But I can see why some people do.

I got Annie from a reputable breeder who shows and health tests less than a week after I finally decided I was ready for a dog, for less than most of the weird mixes for sale right now. These are not normal times at all.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hope in the long run that you don't end up having a long wait. I know it is easy for me to look at this through my lens since I have not had to wait really ever for any of our pups. For all three of our current dogs the litters were already buns in the oven so to speak. You will find a great pup that checks the really important boxes.


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## luliol (Aug 26, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I happened to go on kijiji the other day and see the prices people were asking for dogs. I have a lot more sympathy for people who want more affordable options.
> 
> There was a litter of Rottweiler Golden Retriever crosses for $3500 each! When I was a kid that would be called a breed cross "sneaky neighbour's dog" litter. No litter was priced less than $1800. Its insanity. My dad's dog is going into her first heat right now and I am deliberately not telling him what puppies are going for until after she is spayed, I suspect it might be too much temptation for him.
> 
> ...


The prices people are charging on kijiji for mix breeds is INSANE. I've seen a few litters of poodle mixes (including boxer doodles?!) usually asking more than any reputable breeder I've contacted. Truly mind boggling.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Isn't it crazy the prices they ask for mixes? When I was a kid I got my first dog from my neighbor who had a kennel with show GSD's after her female had a litter from a "traveling salesman" who broke into her screened porch. I kinda would like to go back to those days, things were much simpler.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Years ago, before Mia was spayed, I had a friend with an intact PWD who seemed to me a little lax about keeping him away from Mia when she was in heat ... she's a very conscientious owner, but I think some part of her wanted to see what could happen. We could have hit the jackpot with porti-poos!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Liz said:


> Years ago, before Mia was spayed, I had a friend with an intact PWD who seemed to me a little lax about keeping him away from Mia when she was in heat ... she's a very conscientious owner, but I think some part of her wanted to see what could happen. We could have hit the jackpot with porti-poos!


At least the porti and the poo have somewhat similar backgrounds: water and retrieving work. I don't understand the purpose of crossing in something like a bernie or a boxer.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well Liz that would have put a big strain on that friendship if it was me. I am glad you didn't ends up with oops porti-poos. That would have ended the friendhip for sure in my book. And cowpony you are so right about how nonsensical some of those crosses are. Some of the worst personality wrecking combos I've seen are herdingXpoodles


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I accidentally voted yes because I read the title and voted based on that question. In the future, if I go to a breeder rather than a rescue, I will be choosing one that breeds healthy poodles exclusively.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

This historically has been a divisive issue. The correct observation is they aren't 100% poodle and are designer dogs. Saying this, I like the look of Merles and think many of the well bred ones are very pretty. Others, not so much.

An ideal Merle poodley dog will look identical to a purebred, well-bred poodle except for coloring. This is usually b/c an Aussie (Australian Shepard) was introduced several generations ago to keep the Merle coat colors and green or blue eyes, yet maintain a poodle head & body structure. For example, a Merle "poodle" that has 7 out of 8 great grandparents that were pure poodle will be 88% poodle and 12% Aussie. *Perhaps a better name for them would Merle doodles.*

The better Merle poodley breeders strive to avoid genetic problems. If I recall, two Merles should not be bred together b/c two genes from two Merle poodley dogs can result in deafness in one or more pups from the litter. 

The *more knowledgeable breeders* of Merle 'poodles' will instead breed a solid color poodle with a Merle poodle, and as with any thorough breeder, will have their dogs DNA health tested, hip xrays, and breed for good body structure and temperament. The same is true for labradoodle and golden doodle breeders. Anyone who wants a Merle poodley type puppy should keep this in mind, b/c a lot of breeders of designer dogs do not do extensive health testing nor know much about genetics. So _caveat emptor_.

And oh dear... cost. We lament the prices of doodles. But you know what? So much of the public doesn't care and people will spend their money as they see fit whether we encourage or discourage them in one direction or another. Whether we're talking about real estate, cars, shoes & purses with a designer labels, or dogs, the market sets the price. Few buyers mean prices go down. High demand means prices go up.

As I enter my senior years, I think this: If you really want a Merle doodle and you think this will make you happy, get one, life is short. But as with making a choice on any purebred or doodle, caveat emptor, buyer beware.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Cowpony gave me genetic information that I was unaware of about Merles which should be considered. I'll wait for her to post it.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Doodle breeder wouldn't be a deal breaker provided this person was testing & doing everything else right. My pups breeder is not anti Doodle breeder. She's had a litter of doodles. But she is not actively breeding for doodles & if she did, the time. Care. She told me the story without being asked. I'm ok with what she's got going on. I'm not okay with those mass producing. That's different & not okay with me.

Merles are another matter. I've researched & not found proof of marbles occurring without outcrossing to another breed. That's deceitful & it's a deal breaker for me. To be fair a lot of folks buy the pup feeling its purebred & later breed & will argue to the death they have a purebred. It's why this is a dealbreaker to me. So no. Merle breeders in Poodles are a no go.

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## Green Bean (Apr 23, 2020)

I would not... people breeding doodles are breeding for money/ cute puppies, nothing more. There are plenty of cute puppies in rescue (especially if you're willing to do a rescue from abroad). These breeders are taking the place of deserving pups elsewhere. People go to purebred breeders because they want predictability. Breeders are hoping to get cookie cutter litters of the breed standard; everyone should know what they're getting. They prove this by showing their dogs. On top of this, poodle breeders involving themselves in the 'doodle' trend are making the most out of people bashing poodles. People who want doodles would probably be happy with a poodle, if they weren't told they were frou frou sissy dogs who were born with shaved faces, growl at children and bite postmen.

As for merles... generally the input of new colours to a breed may mean more genes... if they fit with the breed standard not necessarily a problem. Ofc FADS are always dangerous to the gene pool mind. Merle however is a dangerous gene. Uneducated backyard breeders hoping for a fun colour might purchase a merle poodle and breed it with another merle, resulting in a disasterous litter of dead and disabled puppies. Despite contracts they may put in place, people will still do this. Merles shouldn't be introduced to any breed purposefully. They also cannot be registered without lying on the registration form which is obviously dodgy. I've mentioned this on two instagram accounts of 'AKC merle poodle breeders' and both deleted my comment and blocked me 😂


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Here are advanced genetic explanations of:

Merle genetics, 
of double Merles and 
and the impact of different Merle alleles. 

I think the takeaway is that breeders might accidentally produce double merle matings by putting two reds (cream, yellow, or red) together when the Merle genes do not express and are invisible to the eye. 

In addition, some herding dogs like collies and aussies have the MDR1 gene which extreme sickness or death when Ivermectin (used for parasites) and certain other drugs including chemo are used. A breeder who has not tested for this gene could end up with highly vulnerable Merle doodles which won't be discovered until the new owners treat their dogs.

_*~ If it looks like a duck and walks and quacks like a duck, isn't it a duck? ~*_

This is what I struggled with for a long time. However, over time I have come to agree these dogs should not be passed off as 'Merle poodles', despite many of them conforming beautifully to the poodle standard with gorgeous coloring, and they should not have AKC papers that claim they are poodles for ethics issues 3, 4, 5, or 6 generations ago when an outside Merle dog breed was introduced but someone falsified the pedigree to get a unique line of 'poodles'. 

This is the beauty of PF: you learn over time.

Otherwise if someone really wants a Merle doodle, I've always felt life is short and people get what their heart desires, but _buyer beware_: the breeder should have original documentation of DNA and other testing including for the Merle genes and MDR-1 gene. By avoiding any kind of doodle breeder that isn't knowledgeable and thorough, they won't make sales which is good. Otherwise the buyer could face heartbreak later if their dog turns out to be deaf, have vision problems, or die unexpectedly from being treated with a medicine its body cannot metabolize.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

I would not support any breeder who only offered CKC registration (unless we're talking Canadian Kennel Club). If it's Continental Kennel Club that would be a hard pass. That registry is used by people who buy AKC limited registration puppies who are not meant to be bred, then they register them with CKC (Continental) and pass them off as "registered". That is not a trick a reputable breeder would pull. 

That club will register anything. I've heard that you only have to send them two pictures and they'll register your dog as whatever it appears to be. That does not mean purebred or well bred. Disregard my comment if you are talking about Canadian Kennel Club, but since the breeder also breeds doodles and merles......I'm thinking probably not. 

I do not support doodlers, merle poodle breeders or Continental club registration. None of them have to do with responsible poodle breeding.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I'm absolutely stunned that we have a Poodle Forum mod who's even recognizing Doodles and Merles.
"The better Merle poodley breeders strive to avoid genetic problems."
Better?!!! Are you kidding me. There's no such thing as even a decent Merle breeder. 
That's like saying he's a murderer but an OK guy.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I have to disagree with you, Countryboy. There are doodle breeders that are on top of the DNA research but they are few and far between, which is why I repeatedly said buyer beware.

I'm glad you brought up your dismay over my viewpoint, and I'll tell you why.

No matter what the topic, many people become rigid in what they believe, whether it's backed by all the available facts, or facts mixed with omissions, or outright lies. We dig in our heels that we're right, and anyone else who disagrees is wrong or stupid or crazy. We've seen this all thru humanity, from those who virulently fought that the earth was flat, to religious wars, to it was fine to do the extensive in-breeding that caused a genetic bottleneck in standard poodles to the current political divisions in our country.

Opinions _can_ change with additional factual information. This signifies personal _growth_. The willingness to explore outside of our comfort level is an asset. However, if you're in a place where others haven't had this information or flatly rejected it, it's pretty hard to speak up publicly and not worry about being ostracized or maligned.

This applies also to poodle enthusiasts who truly believe that doodles are a curse. There wouldn't be so many doodles or poorly bred poodles if so many of the better breeders haven't been setting up their contracts to sterilize too many fine looking pups from their litters. This is done for two main reasons: striving for absolute perfection in a puppy to show (where they get credit as the breeder), or to eliminate competition in the show ring. This resulted in high prices and often the need for a potential buyer to have to find a well bred poodle in a different state.

Where there's a void, someone or some thing will fill it. People who couldn't get a well bred-poodle said and still say, _the heck with the search, I'll just get a doodle_. This still happens despite the original doodle breeder regretting he ever bred this combination.

Then loads of people with no knowledge jumped on the doodle train to become backyard breeders of pet shop poodles mixed with labs or golden retrievers, followed by whatever other breed combination they can imagine. The general public is drawn to fluffy, pretty, low-allergenic dogs, and they and the byb's and commercial breeders are utterly clueless to unconcerned about possible DNA and genetic disease problems.



Countryboy said:


> I'm absolutely stunned that we have a Poodle Forum mod who's even recognizing Doodles and Merles...


I'm not blind, and see plenty of doodles any time I take a walk or drive in Capitol Hill, The Wharf, or Georgetown in DC, or the wealthier suburbs. So am I not believe 'my lying eyes'? They exist, and considering their popularity, they're here to stay whether we like it or not. If the better breeders want to increase the number of well-bred poodles, they can do this anytime they want. More of them can mentor and they can sell instead of having so many of their better (yet not absolutely perfect) puppies sterilized. It's really up to them. My "recognizing" the obvious in no way slows down the proliferation of doodles or poorly bred poodles.

Also, I hoped my honesty about my opinion changing about Merles would be appreciated. I learned more about the exact genetic risks of breeding them based on science, not just parroting back "that's bad" but not really knowing why. I used to think that if a Merle looked identical to poodle except the coloring, then well, it's a poodle. Close, but not quite. I also keep in mind that if one judges how poodles looked in very old photos and paintings of poodles a 100+ years ago, they didn't quite resemble the poodles of today. Clearly mankind tweaked their gene pool to get the look we have today. And I still wonder how breeders ended up in three different sizes; clearly there's been some tweaking of their genetics to transform a standard into a toy.

As Super Moderator and in real life, I encourage people to think for themselves and to explore as many sources of information possible to come to their own conclusions and make well-informed decisions of what risks are involved. In this regard, I had hoped this would be positive role modeling for others.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I appreciate the nuance of opinions. I think any dog that becomes trendy will have major problems with backyard breeders. With doodles, there are multiple things that frustrate "dog people."

1. They are sold as hypoallergenic when they often aren't.
2. Breeders of them charge outrageously high prices and seem to do it just for the money.
3. Breeders of them are often not breeding quality health tested dogs.
4. People who buy them have little knowledge of grooming requirements.
5. People who buy them often choose doodles over poodles because there is a stigma associated with poodles.
6. People who buy them often have little knowledge about dogs and fail to do adequate research.
7. They are marketed like toys rather than dogs.

All of these things I think are true. But I would still say there are many excellent doodles with excellent owners out there that have their own somewhat reasonable reasons for wanting a doodle. And who keep up with the coat maintenance of their dogs. I wouldn't say they're in the majority... but they are out there for sure.

I would also agree that there are doodle breeders out there that are trying their hardest to breed healthy well tempered dogs. They for sure aren't in the majority but they do exist.

These things can all be true at the same time. I can believe all of them and still say that a poodle breeder who doodles on the side would be off my list for sure. I believe my previous stated reasons adequately explain this reasoning.

I feel that ultimately the important thing is that dogs are healthy, built soundly, well tempered, and have good owners that do their best to care for them and give them adequate mental and physical stimulation.


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## Luluspoo (Jul 27, 2020)

Vita said:


> I'm not blind, and see plenty of doodles any time I take a walk or drive in Capitol Hill, The Wharf, or Georgetown in DC, or the wealthier suburbs. So am I not believe 'my lying eyes'? They exist, and considering their popularity, they're here to stay whether we like it or not. If the better breeders want to increase the number of well-bred poodles, they can do this anytime they want. More of them can mentor and they can sell instead of having so many of their better (yet not absolutely perfect) puppies sterilized. It's really up to them. My "recognizing" the obvious in no way slows down the proliferation of doodles or poorly bred poodles.



THIS. I've been wanting to vent about this for awhile now, I just didn't know how anyone would take it. Everything you said, Vita is right on the money. I cannot say that I know much about doodles or merles, however, my opinion aligns with @Raindrops opinion. You can say I have the exact same points. To be perfectly honest, I don't like doodles because of the false information being given about them. But I can't say there aren't good breeders that do provide the information necessary. 

In my search for a mentor these last few months, I have noticed something; first and foremost, the poodle competition doesn't seem like it's changing. I have talked to a lot of pleasant people that show and a lot of unpleasant people and I can say 100% after much research, the not so pleasant people run this circus. Sorry if you're friends with these people and sorry if you don't think my opinion matters, however, these unpleasant people run it and I feel they project their own requirements on others as well as their fears. Why do I feel this way? I'll tell you:

So from what I heard and know, there are basic “requirements” to owning a poodle and to show them (if you want). Grooming, exercise, training, grooming (I list it twice for emphasis lol). Many breeder sites, Facebook pages and blogs go into vivid detail about this for poodles and they're absolutely right! No one is wrong. But do you know that I've contacted TEN reputable breeders on the east coast, some completely out of the way. After awhile, this had become an experiment I just had to see to the end. Out of the ten, only seven replied. I asked if they’d be willing to mentor me, I told them what I know and the research I had done. Then I wrapped it up with something like “I want to be prepared for the day I buy a poodle which will be sometime in the future”. Now, before I say what I'm about to say, I want you all to know that I do not expect anyone to give me the time of day, not during this pandemic either. But it's just so ironic how almost all seven responded with I don't show my own dogs, I don't groom my own dogs, talk to (insert whoever here). This makes me feel weird considering all the advice I have gotten so far. From an outsider’s pov, it feels like everything I've been told was a lie. That or someone doesn't believe I'm right for the ring.

I wonder how many others felt like this or did what Vita described and decided “oh well, Imma get a doodle!” or bought a merle because it comes with papers or paid extra money for full papers on a poorly bred purebred poodle because they just want to show people that they too can breed quality dogs. Aside from breeding rights or even conformation, I wonder how many bought these dogs because someone told them they just weren't good enough for a poodle of any size. Yes, I know there are people that are obviously not right for the breed, but I have a gut feeling there are some people that were denied on rare occasions for wanting more than just a pet poodle. 


I know this isn't true for everyone. I see a lot of welcoming breeders I just wish were closer. You can tell they want to expand and pass on their knowledge. It's obvious.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Aw, c'mon Vita. You can't expect me to read all that gish gallop.
STRICTLY from a psychological view, the more you discuss abominations, the more you legitimize them. I've fought in here before with people legitimizing Doodles... but MERLES?!!! Are you kidding me?!! This is a POODLE forum. We detest Merles fer dawgsake!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Ha-ha-ha-ha! An abomination? I didn't expect that. 😅
Well, I've never seen a Merle doodle with horns, but if I do I'll be sure to run and hide.

Meh. I like full discussions with various perspectives so no one person or group dominates. At the end of the day, people think what they think and do what they do anyway, I just try to dig into all sides and risks when it comes to getting any kind of dog, with the buyer beware credo.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

What happened to this rule?
14. Poodleforum.com will not allow promotion of mixed breed fanciers/breeders. If you are cross breeding poodles you are more than welcome to join and discuss poodles with us but we will not tolerate anyone advertising their kennel or services in this line of business. There are hundreds of dogs who need a new home in our local shelters. A large number of the dogs in shelters are purebred, while the rest are cute mixed breeds! We advise anyone who is looking for a dog to always check out your local dog shelter before purchasing a dog


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

twyla said:


> What happened to this rule?
> 14. Poodleforum.com will not allow promotion of mixed breed fanciers/breeders. If you are cross breeding poodles you are more than welcome to join and discuss poodles with us but we will not tolerate anyone advertising their kennel or services in this line of business. There are hundreds of dogs who need a new home in our local shelters. A large number of the dogs in shelters are purebred, while the rest are cute mixed breeds! We advise anyone who is looking for a dog to always check out your local dog shelter before purchasing a dog


Which post on this thread is someone a promoting a doodle breeder?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

This one


Vita said:


> This historically has been a divisive issue. The correct observation is they aren't 100% poodle and are designer dogs. Saying this, I like the look of Merles and think many of the well bred ones are very pretty. Others, not so much.
> 
> An ideal Merle poodley dog will look identical to a purebred, well-bred poodle except for coloring. This is usually b/c an Aussie (Australian Shepard) was introduced several generations ago to keep the Merle coat colors and green or blue eyes, yet maintain a poodle head & body structure. For example, a Merle "poodle" that has 7 out of 8 great grandparents that were pure poodle will be 88% poodle and 12% Aussie. *Perhaps a better name for them would Merle doodles.*
> 
> ...


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

twyla said:


> This one


Show me the exact sentence.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

The better Merle poodley breeders strive to avoid genetic problems.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Vita said:


> Otherwise if someone really wants a Merle doodle, I've always felt life is short and people get what their heart desires, but


And thi
Otherwise if someone really wants a Merle doodle, I've always felt life is short and people get what their heart desires,


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

And this



dogsavvy said:


> Doodle breeder wouldn't be a deal breaker provided this person was testing & doing everything else right. My pups breeder is not anti Doodle breeder. She's had a litter of doodles. But she is not actively breeding for doodles & if she did, the time. Care. She told me the story without being asked. I'm ok with what she's got going on. I'm not okay with those mass producing. That's different & not okay with me.
> 
> Merles are another matter. I've researched & not found proof of marbles occurring without outcrossing to another breed. That's deceitful & it's a deal breaker for me. To be fair a lot of folks buy the pup feeling its purebred & later breed & will argue to the death they have a purebred. It's why this is a dealbreaker to me. So no. Merle breeders in Poodles are a no go.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

It goes against our forum rules, to promote doodle breeding, we are here after all to discuss our beloved poodle breed
I am not against poodle mixes, but don't call a merle poodle mix a merle poodle


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

twyla said:


> The better Merle poodley breeders strive to avoid genetic problems.


_Context (noun). The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning_.

In the context of parts of the discussion about genetic problems with Merles, this is a true statement and not a "promotion" of the Merle doodles.



twyla said:


> What happened to this rule?
> 14. Poodleforum.com will not allow promotion of mixed breed fanciers/breeders....


Nor did my sentence promote mixed breed fanciers/breeders.



twyla said:


> And thi
> Otherwise if someone really wants a Merle doodle, I've always felt life is short and people get what their heart desires,


Yes, I do feel this way. It isn't a promotion any more than if I had said - or others have said on thousands of PF threads - how they love their cat, their German Sheppard, or another type of purebred, mixed breed, or rescue they own.

And life is short and people get what their hearts desire and what they can afford, no matter whether I, you, or anyone supports their decision or not. This is the reality of human nature.

You also quoted Dogsavvy's comment as proof or "ammunition" to justify a violation of Rule 14. Sorry, but it doesn't hold up.



dogsavvy said:


> Doodle breeder wouldn't be a deal breaker provided this person was testing & doing everything else right. My pups breeder is not anti Doodle breeder. She's had a litter of doodles....To be fair a lot of folks buy the pup feeling its purebred & later breed & will argue to the death they have a purebred. It's why this is a dealbreaker to me. So no. Merle breeders in Poodles are a no go.


Twyla, I'll say this gently. _None of us can control what others think or want_. By misusing rules and taking words out of context to quash or censor aspects of a discussion we don't like, we do the public a disservice. We leave them as in the dark as the proverbial young teenager who knows zero about drugs or reproduction. This is why I spent a great deal of time, which you didn't mention, pointing out the risks of buying a Merle with links so people can read it for themselves and make their own decisions.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I wouldn't call it 'promoting' but every time you mention Merle, you're normalizing a condition that can accidentally and seriously blow up in owners faces. And you're normalizing it in repeated thesis that few people have the time to read. You are allowed to moderate this forum under the forum's rules... not to rant on, attempting to morph PF toward your own rules. The ONLY decision allowed in this forum is to stay away from Merle, not get so close to it to get burned.
It's no wonder we're loosing true Poodle People in favour of mutt owners. Think seriously about your arrogant and dangerous promotion of affliction in our breed before we lose more Standard owners.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I have to respectfully disagree. I came to this forum searching about various colors trying to find out if they were naturally occurring in the breed or were they sneaky crossbred dogs? Through info on the forum I was able to narrow my search, changes some terminology & get better search results & info. The discussion of merles, doodles, etc... helped me tremendously & prevented me from making some errors. So discussion of such doesn't legitimize them unless the reader is a dodo & reads merle & stops reading. That is then the dodo's fault. Not seeing positives written about merles here. I am an information junkie & devour this board on a regular basis to learn. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Vita said:


> _Context (noun). The parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning_.
> 
> In the context of parts of the discussion about genetic problems with Merles, this is a true statement and not a "promotion" of the Merle doodles.
> 
> ...


Again I refer you to Poodle forum rule 14


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Countryboy said:


> Aw, c'mon Vita. You can't expect me to read all that gish gallop...


Earlier I took what you said with humor - and a grain salt because you didn't read what I wrote. But then you said it again:



Countryboy said:


> I wouldn't call it 'promoting' but every time you mention Merle, you're normalizing a condition that can accidentally and seriously blow up in owners faces. And you're normalizing it in repeated thesis that few people have the time to read...


If you actually read it, you'd know I didn't "normalize a condition". People read what they want to read, and if they have a knee-jerk reaction to a word like Merle and that triggers them to stop reading, that's on them.

Not long ago, several members jumped all over you for liking a breeder they think is below par and didn't meet their standards. I didn't have a problem with that, you like what and who you like and had reasons why. What I did on this thread is no different: for buyers to choose to a breeder based on all available information combined with their comfort level of what they are willing to accept in choosing a dog.

And since you mentioned it, I was chosen to be Super Mod because I'm fair-minded, have the ability to tolerate different points of view and truly believe that PF is for everyone, not just small cliques who think a certain way and bully others from discussing certain topics.



twyla said:


> Again I refer you to Poodle forum rule 14


Btw, that's from the old rules, but still applies. The Updated Forum Rules from February 2020 are at this link which can be found in Rules 5.2 and 5.6.

_5.2 Poodle Forum does not endorse deliberately planned or breeding a poodle with another breed to get designer or mixed-breed puppies. Those threads will be deleted. 

5.6 You are not allowed to announce your services of cross-bred poodles in the Poodle Breeder Directory, as we will not allow promotion of the breeding or selling of mixed-breed poodles anywhere on the forum. We will not tolerate anyone promoting or advertising their kennel or services in this line of business."_


At this point, Countryboy and Twyla, we have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. This will allow others to carry on with the conversation since we have made our views clear to all.


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## Rug Guy (Jan 29, 2019)

Dealbreaker for me on both counts. When I was looking for my current boy I found several breeders with quality pups available or planned. I dont want to support anyone actively destroying my favorite breed
Pic of Bentley receiving his Star Puppy award @ 6 months only because he’s such a beautiful poodle


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

If a merle breeder or doodle breeder tried to promote their services here, they would be shut down _fast_. That doesn't mean we can't respectfully discuss our opinions or talk about the realities of their existence.

I loved my merle mutt and mention her here frequently because she's what led me to my purebred poodle and taught me so much of what I know about poodles specifically and dogs in general. It would be a slippery slope to label that "promoting" even as I understand it probably rubs some people the wrong way. She was a petstore dog, too, from a time when I knew better but wasn't quite mature enough to do better.

For so long, even as she was increasingly beloved by people all around the world, I avoided telling anyone her origins, out of fear they'd run out and get their own "Gracie." But I've since realized that having honest discussions about where our dogs come from is important. It's part of a greater education that desperately needs to take place in our culture.

I like Vita's sex education analogy.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rug Guy said:


> Dealbreaker for me on both counts. When I was looking for my current boy I found several breeders with quality pups available or planned. I dont want to support anyone actively destroying my favorite breed
> Pic of Bentley receiving his Star Puppy award @ 6 months only because he’s such a beautiful poodle


I think we're going to need more Bentley pics! What a beauty and clearly a very good boy.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I probably would not buy a poodle from a doodle breeder. I'm not opposed to a carefully bred doodle. Some people do want/need a dog with a retriever-like personality and a non-shedding coat. However, the kind of careful doodle breeder I'd want to support should be well beyond the F1 stage at this point in time. I'd expect a really good explanation as to why she is breeding poodles instead of concentrating on her doodles or cobber dogs.

The merle poodle issue is very interesting to me. A parallel exists in the horse world with the overo gene. The overo gene, like merle, is an incomplete dominant. One copy gives the horse pretty white splotches. Two copies produces a fatal birth defect. The foal is born pure white with a malformed digestive tract. The foal will die, painfully, within a week. Obviously losing a foal this way is both expensive and distressing to the breeder.

Quarter Horse breeders have, in part due to the lethal white overo gene, long discouraged any sort of white spotting on the horse's torso. For most of the 20th century spotted horses were ineligible to be registered as Quarter Horses. (White socks and facial marks were permitted, as they come from another gene.)

Enter the American Paint horse. People who loved their spotted cowponies started their own registry. Quarter Horse foals with too much white, known as cropouts, could be registered as Paints instead. Paints had their own shows and stock horse activities; Paints just did it with more bling than their Quarter Horse cousins.

Getting back to the topic of merle poodles, I think they are not pure bred poodles. The outcross was done for aesthetic, not health, related reasons. Therefore, I think it's entirely reasonable for the Poodle Club to deny registration. However, if people like their splotchy poodle crosses, well, go ahead and found a merle club. Define a breed standard, define a code of ethics, and start holding merle events just like the Paint horse folks did.

Bouncing back to horses, most of the major horse registries now require genetic testing. The Jockey Club has been requiring DNA verification of parentage since the 1990's. More recently the Quarter Horse registry started requiring tests for several common genetic defects found within the breed. (With the ability to test for overo, they also started permitting the registration of spotted Quarter Horses.) It really blows my mind that dog breed clubs aren't making similar mandates.


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