# Zeuterin? (chemical sterilization, no surgery)



## vickilh (Jan 8, 2016)

Pup with 11 yr. old


----------



## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I don't have any experience with dogs that have been "Zeutered," but I have owned several intact males. None of my previous intact males have marked in the house, and Hans doesn't either (he's 2.5 years old now, and has access to the whole house all the time). I did go through brief periods of housetraining refreshers with each of them as teenagers, but that was it. Hans doesn't mark indoors, when we are jogging, or during training, so they can learn when it is appropriate. 

I think the roaming possibly depends on the dog...the dog I had before Hans would have wandered off if a gate was left open. Hans has been really well boundary trained, and he won't leave the fenced yard without a leash even if a gate is open. Once, careless friends have left the gate open when he was out, and he just sat down on the porch and waited for someone to shut the gate (not that I think it's a good idea to leave him out with the gate open, but these weren't animal people and they didn't know "if a gate is shut leave it shut" apparently). I also think a lot of managing roaming behavior is just limiting opportunities for the dog to wander. 

All in all, intact males can behave themselves just as well as neutered males if they are given boundaries and consistent training. I never cut mine any slack or use the fact that they are intact as an excuse for inappropriate behavior. 

The only time it is noticeable that Hans is intact, behavior wise, is if the neighbor's bitch comes in season. He won't eat as much then, and he gets a little pouty.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I read about zeutering in a NYT's article and considered it briefly. Owners of (real life) working dogs on farms and ranches were reported to be pleased. My last dog was unaltered, and many LARGER dogs reacted aggressively towards him with no provocation. Pheromones? He did not mark in the house, unlike his neutered predecessor, but did mark on every blade of grass along our walks if given a chance. To me, the appeal of neutering vs. zeutering is general safety especially for a small dog. With two males, one a neutered senior, I think the new kid needs to match. They are so adorable together, btw.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I had my standard boy zeutered when he was ten months old. He developed dog aggression early on, and I'd hoped the chemical castration would decrease his testosterone enough to correct that problem, but it didn't, so I had him surgically castrated at a year of age. That didn't help either. I wouldn't hesitate to have another dog zeutered, but I wouldn't expect either type of castration necessarily to prevent or correct behavior problems.


----------



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Very true, JudyD! Established behavior, general personality did not change. How altered dogs viewed and interacted with my unaltered dog became a concern. 50% less? Let's go for 100%


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My 7 year old GSD is intact and has never even thought about marking in the house. He does mark when he is "free" on walks, meaning I haven't asked him to be at heel. I let him have time to just be a dog for part of our walk and to have attentive loose leash for the rest. I see him do a lot of air scenting sometimes and he will mark more at those times, but again never in the house. I think when there is lots of air scenting going on he is detecting a bitch in heat. He has remained intact partly because it was BF's preference and partly because we have had hopes of breeding him, but now he has prostate enlargement (normal old man kind, no cancer by ultrasound) and has been having bladder crystals (probably related to being intact too). 

Javelin (my spoo boy) is going to be 11 months old in a couple of weeks. He is still intact. He has just started lifting his leg when he pees. He also marks when out in areas where other dogs have done so, but again I don't think he would ever consider doing it in the house. He also has done some air scenting recently (I think there is an in heat girl somewhere relatively close to my house). My plan is to leave him intact until his growth plates are closed unless otherwise indicated. I have not given any consideration to zeutering.

It is not uncommon for neutered males to be aggressive towards intact males. I have seen it happen many times when neutered dogs have been less than friendly towards my GSD.

OP most of what you are worrying about can be handled by keeping your boundaries closed (no wandering) and appropriate training, but if your older dog starts to act badly towards your pup neutering may solve that problem. Make sure that the vet who does it understands how to give anesthesia to small dogs.


----------



## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

My mpoo is almost 14 months and intact and doesn't show any of the behaviours people tend to associate with intact males. He doesn't mark inside, love all other dogs, doesn't hump etc. Same with my last dog who was a 160lb intact male dane. He was selectively leash reactive, but he picked that up from my other Dane who was neutered at ten months. He was an incredibly easy dog to live with, and even though his show career didn't pan out I probably wouldn't have ever neutered him as there was just no reason to. I also don't do dog parks and my dogs are never allowed to wander so roaming was never an issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## vickilh (Jan 8, 2016)

I just spoke with someone from an organization in NC that does zeuterin procedures. They require a minimum testicle size of an almond (I read somewhere that this is about 10mm?) to do the procedure. Right now, I have a hard time even locating his testicles! They seem very small, when I am able to (I think) find them. So I'm planning on waiting a month and hope for testicle growth, and they said that they're fine with me making an appt. just to have his testicle size checked.

About the undesirable male behaviors, - she said that in their experience, if you have the male zeutered or neutered before any of that starts, it's likely you won't have a problem.

It sounds like there could be an issue with my older neutered toy poodle. He gets jealous sometimes now anyway, and I think Remy (puppy) will wind up being alpha in any case because he's naturally a more confident dog. - But what I could do is have him zeutered around 6 months (if his testicles are large enough), and I could have him neutered later on if there was a problem with the older dog. Do you think any problems between them would show up by 1 year old?

I'd just really like to avoid the general anesthesia if possible. Also, from what I've read, it's best if the pup has at least some of its testosterone until it's fully grown (growth plates, etc). Which I think for a toy is about a year old. But I don't want to leave him intact until a year old (possible undesirable behaviors) plus my contract requires that he be sterilized by 8 months old.

Thank you! Vicki


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Are you sure general anesthetic isn't used? My boy was definitely put under. As I recall, it had to do with precise placement of the needle for injecting the med.


----------



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I would get him neutered at 8 months old. That's a good, logical decision.


----------



## vickilh (Jan 8, 2016)

Everything I've read said that only sedative / light anesthesia is administered, not general anesthesia. They can leave right afterwards, in and out in 10 minutes. No general anesthesia is one of the benefits of Zeuterin.

See the Zeuterin website, they say on their anesthesia page:
"If you would like to avoid the risks of surgery and not having to use anestheia on your dog when getting them neutered, you should consider Zeuterin, which is a safe and non-surgical procedure to neuter dogs. For more info on this, talk to your vet today."

Judy, did your boy stay at the vet all day? If not, and it was pretty quick, he was only sedated.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

We took him to Roanoke--no one in WV does the procedure. It was a low-cost spay/neuter clinic, so they had lots of experience. We picked him up a couple of hours after we dropped him off, and he was so sedated he couldn't get into the car without help. He slept all day, wouldn't eat or drink. I was really beginning to worry about him, but he was fine the next morning.

On the other hand, he was awake, alert, and hard to hold down within an hour or two of his surgical castration. In fact, the vet called us to come get him several hours early because he was causing a ruckus.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I just checked Blue's medical records. You're right that he was given sedation only--he had acepromazine, butorphanol, and dexdomitor--and they really did a job on him. Even though he was given a reversal agent (antiseden), he was barely awake for the rest of the day. None of our animals has ever been that groggy for that long after any medical procedure.


----------



## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

The sedation was likely due to the acepromazine. That is a sedative and would not be reversed. The dexdomitor should have been fully reversed by the antisedan. It's a strange combination . The butorphanol is a pain med, which I would expect. 

As far as neutered vs intact, my neutered boys are fine with the intact one. The plan is to Zeuter, probably this month. 

I've never had an issue with testosterone led behaviors.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah I don't like acepromazine very well. It sedates in a way that motor responses are dulled, but awareness is not. It is hard to dose too in my experience. I have tried it in the past for thunder anxiety with Peeves.


----------



## vickilh (Jan 8, 2016)

Good to know all this. If I zeuter Remy (done in NC by SNAP-NC), I'll check with them beforehand about the sedative(s) they plan to use. I don't know whether I could request that certain ones be used or not used, but I'd have the info.


----------



## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

vickilh said:


> About the undesirable male behaviors, - she said that in their experience, if you have the male zeutered or neutered before any of that starts, it's likely you won't have



I just wanted to touch on this part. This absolutely isn't a guarantee. My first Dane boy was neutered at ten months while he was still a goofy puppy who loved all dogs and that didn't prevent him from becoming selective with male dogs and leash reactive. He also started humping other dogs when he was three, long after his neuter. He doesn't mark, but honestly, he's a bigger pain than my intact boy ever was. I also know plenty of dogs who were neutered as babies before being adopted from shelters who still went on to mark, hump, not like other male dogs, etc. Honestly, I believe that the majority of behaviour is genetic and has little to do with altering.


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

kayla_baxter said:


> I just wanted to touch on this part. This absolutely isn't a guarantee. My first Dane boy was neutered at ten months while he was still a goofy puppy who loved all dogs and that didn't prevent him from becoming selective with male dogs and leash reactive. He also started humping other dogs when he was three, long after his neuter. He doesn't mark, but honestly, he's a bigger pain than my intact boy ever was. I also know plenty of dogs who were neutered as babies before being adopted from shelters who still went on to mark, hump, not like other male dogs, etc. Honestly, I believe that the majority of behaviour is genetic and has little to do with altering.


I agree! We had a Lab who was intact his whole life and never showed any negative behaviors. Blue's only fault is the dog aggression, which has been completely unaffected by neutering. I wish we'd left him intact.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I also think a lot of that behavior is innate to the dog (genetic). Peeves is seven years old and intact. He never humps anybody, he isn't aggressive (usually the target) and he never marks in the house or for that matter much in the yard. If Lily is near him he doesn't even lift his leg if they are in the yard. The main reason I wish he was neutered is related to his urinary crystals.


----------

