# Color genetics - Apricot x Silver/White



## Dina (Jan 24, 2016)

Hello!
I have a question about color genetics.
We have an apricot toy poodle (ckc) whom we are showing and working towards his championship. We are looking to get a female this Friday and have a choice between 2 puppies as show prospects.
Puppy 1 is a silver from silver x silver breeding. 
Puppy 2 is a white from a silver x silver breeding as well. They both have the same sire different dams.

I am wondering if we should choose to breed our apricot male to either of these puppies in the future (once titled and health tested of course). What colours can we suspect their puppies would be.

My male apricot we suspect carries the fading gene as well since he has a silver grandmother and his dam is suspected to be a silver beige? She looks cream now but the breeder registered her as brown (said she was an odd colour like toapy?) Sire is apricot with only reds and apricots in heritage.

I've seen a chart that suggests silver to apricot will result in apricot or cream puppies but I'm just curious if there is any chances of getting silver or blue pups ?

Thanks!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm out of my depth here so until someone more familiar arrives I'll link a couple of my go-to site for color breeding. 

Also, what does the breeder think?

Genetics behind Coat Color - Nova's Standard Poodles (weebly.com) 

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES (tripod.com) 

Dog Coat Colour Genetics (doggenetics.co.uk)


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

It's hard to say without a color test on both your boy and the girl pups. Regarding color, what is the goal of your program? Are you aiming for apricots and reds? If so, I would choose neither pup. You don't want any greying or fading genes. Instead I would seek out a pup from a line of non-fading reds or inky blacks with no creams. 

If your goal is blues and silvers, then it depends on what your boy and the little silver girl both carry. Silver is black with a modifier gene on top (or brown in the case of silver beige.) Black is normally dominant over both red and brown. Therefore, I think it's possible you could get silver or blue, as the silver girl's black would be dominant over your boy's apricot. It sounds like your boy carries brown. If the silver girl also carries brown, you could get some surprise cafe or silver beige pups. If the silver girl carries red/apricot, then you could get apricot or cream; I would expect the color to lighten.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

You would actually be more likely to get silver or blue puppies, with apricot/cream a possibility (breeding to the silver pup).
Here's the explanation:
There are three main 'base' colors with their shadings
Black- blue- silver
Brown- cafe au lait- silver beige
Red- apricot- cream
White is a weird curve ball on the red spectrum. 

Black is dominant- which means a black based dog could carry any or all of the other colors. So the silver puppy has one copy of black, and one unknown.
Red and brown are inherited separately from each other (red dogs can have black or brown points).
Because red is recessive, your apricot boy only carries red and not black. This means all his puppies would carry red, but their actual color depends on the female. 
White is also inherited with red, so with that white pup you would only have pups on the red spectrum. 
With the silver pup, she has a small chance of carrying reds (unknown based on info given). She has at the lowest 50% chance of black spectrum pups.
Because she is silver, they will be guaranteed to fade at least to blue, depending on your male (and fading gene is not testable) pups could be silver.

Too bad I can't make a Punnet square on here lol.


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## Dina (Jan 24, 2016)

Thank you for your input! 

I guess I am more so confused on what would happen with the white puppy since she too is out of a silver x silver breeding. Are there any chances of silver/blue pups?

We will discuss with the breeder tomorrow what her thoughts are as well as she's been breeding for over 40 years but just thought id check on here too!

We don't really have a goal in mind for color as temperament and structure is what we are aiming for. I have always had a soft spot for silvers though.

Also will note the breeder also said the silver puppy's bite has changed this last week (at 8 weels, she will be 9 weeks tomorrow) to a slight underbite but her canines have not yet come in so she believes there is a chance of it fixing itself. Per her experience... We likely will be bringing home the white puppy but still holding out hope as like I mentioned silver is def our fave but that's not what is most important.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

White is actually part of the red/apricot spectrum with some not yet identified genes further modifying the color. You'd get something on the lighter end of the red spectrum if you bred to an apricot.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

For the silver x silver crossing that produced a white puppy, both of the parents would have 'carried' for red spectrum. Which means that statistically 25% progeny would would be silver not carrying red, 50% would be silver carrying red, and 25% would be red spectrum (including white).
Because red spectrum is recessive, no, even though the parents are both silver she would not carry or pass down silver to any pups. 
You would only see red spectrum: cream, apricot, possibly white.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

It might help to get some color testing. You say that your male is apricot. That would be ee. He could be BBee or Bbee or bbee. If he is bbee he would have a brown nose (that’s a fault in the show ring so most breeders try to avoid producing bbee). Bbee carries brown and would have the potential to produce bb offspring if bred to a poodle that carried brown. So if your male is BBee, then you would have the assurance that he could not produce bbee.

You cannot test for the genes that cause black poodles to clear to blue or silver. And you cannot test for the genes that select where ee poodles fall on the red-apricot-cream-white spectrum. 

Puppy 1 is a silver from silver x silver breeding. So this puppy is either Bb (carries brown) or BB (does not carry brown) and either Ee (carries cream) or EE (does not carry cream) (By cream, I mean white,cream, apricot or red.) If the pup is EE then she cannot produce cream spectrum puppies. If she is BB, then she cannot produce brown or brown-nosed puppies.

Puppy 2 is a white from a silver x silver breeding. The fact that she is white means that she is ee. The fact that she is from a silver x silver breeding suggests that both of her parents were Ee. They both contributed an e gene to her to make her ee. She will pass a cream gene on to her puppies, and if bred to a cream-spectrum stud, all of the puppies will be cream spectrum.

You say that a chart suggests silver to apricot will result in apricot or cream puppies. This is not entirely accurate. If the silver is EE, then he/she is unable to produce ee (apricot/cream) puppies even if bred to apricot or cream. For example, my boy Sam was recently bred to a blue girl who does not carry cream. She is BBEE and Sam is BBee. All 9 puppies were born black. (Some will clear to blue or silver.) 

I’d definitely recommend getting color testing done.

Hope this helps.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

peppersb said:


> You cannot test for the genes that cause black poodles to clear to blue or silver. And you cannot test for the genes that select where ee poodles fall on the red-apricot-cream-white spectrum.


It's true that that there isn't a specific known and testable gene for red spectrum, but Embark does have a Red Intensity test result as one of the traits. Raffi for example is Intermediate (cream to apricot- although they use non-poodle color terms yellow or tan), although as an Ee he does not express it.
It seems quite accurate, correctly identifying darker apricot and reds as Intense (red to apricot), although the creams show up as either Dilute (white to cream) or Intermediate. Which makes sense of course, as red-white is a true spectrum with all possible grades.


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