# Poodle Prey drive



## snow0160

Lucky suddenly developed a need to chase squirrels. I was told by people on SD forum that poodles have high prey drive, which I did not know. He doesn't chase our cat indoors and never chase squirrels before. This is not to be confused with hunt and kill drive because Lucky doesn't destroy toys and is very gentle. I think he just wants to play with the squirrels. Service dog people said to redirect the prey drive to different kind of games i.e. Fetch. I can play fetch with Lucky all day. We are doing advanced fetch where he brings back certain items. So far we have done bear, ball, and phone. He likes the ball the most because it bounces. We also play tag. Not kidding the dog knows how to play tag but I get winded very quickly and can't keep up. Must get in better shape. Does your poodle have high prey drive? Do you play certain games with your poodle? 

ETA: why does he only chase certain things i.e. Squirrels, big and small birds, and tumbleweeds. He does not chase cats or small dogs... even outside 

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## lily cd re

Lily and Peeves both chase squirrels and cats, but have been trained not to chase birds since we have chickens. They will work together to harass cats that are after my birds. Peeves will chase directly after the cat and Lily will circle out in front to cut off its path. Since we have lots of levels of decking in the yard, the cats always escape by going low into spaces the dogs can't fit. I wouldn't actually want them to catch anything or to get hurt trying to do so, but I do not mind at all if they scare the heck out of the cats.

Javelin has not had much experience with chasing small mammals, but acts sort of dopey about the idea of doing so. I sent him and Lily out to run off a cat that was near my chickens one morning a few weeks ago. Lily was right on it, but Javelin just stood and watched, uh duh! He will give a bit of chase to the chickens, but he has such a great recall that I have always been able to call him away from them.

The only dog I trust to be in the yard unsupervised with loose chickens is Lily. She will lie down and watch them. I do expect she would run off a cat to protect them. Peeves also has alerted us to cats near the chickens, but not when they were loose ranging.

I would say both poodles have high prey drives since they are both natural retrievers and love their obedience dumbbells. Thankfully it has been easy for me to channel and direct their drives.


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## PoodleRick

All of mine have had a high prey drive. Penny probably the strongest as she was really interested in cars that drove by on our walks when she was a pup. Not too interested in cars now but squirrels, rabbits, deer, birds in the bushes and leaves blowing across the yard all need chasing.

Rick


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## fjm

Both of mine have a prey drive - only for prey. That means something small and alive that runs away, or flutters, or scampers. My own cats are out of bounds, but they will chase strange cats, although know not to get close enough for retaliation. They have killed a young stoat, several rabbits (already far gone with Mixy) and, in Poppy's case, a fledgling blackbird that I didn't spot in time. They like chasing squirrels back into trees, and will occasionally chase rabbits into their holes, but know these days that they have to be very close to have a chance of catching them. I have worked hard on being able to call them away from even exciting stuff, after they vanished off after rabbits when young!


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## Poodlebeguiled

Oh yes! My two poodles are very prey driven. They'll chase anything that moves except humans. lol. It's a good thing or they might be dangerous! lol. They are ready to spring into action if a little leaf blows across the yard or if I accidentally kick a small piece of gravel when we're walking, anything is game to them.:act-up:

They both chase and retrieve balls/toys...Matisse is a better bringer backer though than Maurice. Jose`, my Chi was always a super duper retriever, better than my Lab. lol. go figure. haha. He's getting a little lazy these days though. But he use to be able to play the retrieve game over and over for a loooong time. 

That prey drive is good for getting them interested in all kinds of training tasks, not only agility, but I find you can really rev them up with a toy and motivate, get them in a good mood and they'll do things more crisply, promptly and enthusiastically for you. I love dogs with a strong prey drive as long as they also have a good work-along-side-the-human-drive too and aren't out there busy treeing a raccoon when they're suppose to be coming or dropping on the recall. (Ie: focus on human) haha.


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## Zorkon

Both my spoos like to chase squirrels. A few years ago, on Christmas Day, I was over at my parents with my dogs. Nadia wanted to go out, so I let her and she charged and caught a squirrel. I ran out in my bare feet in the snow and pulled her off the squirrel. It was the first and only time she has ever growled at me. The squirrel was rigid and gently shaking. I got Nadia back in the house and went back out with a heavy rake to put the squirrel out of it's misery, but it had disappeared, so I guess it wasn't as badly hurt as I thought. I didn't get mad at her because hunting is in her genes, but I am careful now that I know she can catch small animals.


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## PoodleRick

Zorkon said:


> Both my spoos like to chase squirrels. A few years ago, on Christmas Day, I was over at my parents with my dogs. Nadia wanted to go out, so I let her and she charged and caught a squirrel. I ran out in my bare feet in the snow and pulled her off the squirrel. It was the first and only time she has ever growled at me. The squirrel was rigid and gently shaking. I got Nadia back in the house and went back out with a heavy rake to put the squirrel out of it's misery, but it had disappeared, so I guess it wasn't as badly hurt as I thought. I didn't get mad at her because hunting is in her genes, but I am careful now that I know she can catch small animals.


Nadia must be stealthier than Penny. Penny starts barking at whatever she wants to chase even before I open the door. 

Rick


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## Zorkon

Nadia is really fast. She once caught a rabbit, which I didn't think any poodle would be fast enough to do. She didn't have time to kill it, but I'm sure she would have if I had been a few seconds slower. As it was she had pulled out several big chunks of fur from its back.


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## Skylar

I'm glad you posted this - the responses are so interesting. I never thought about the fact that the prey drive is separate from the hunt and kill drive but it does make sense. My dog is also gentle with her toys - and her cats.

Babykins is fascinated by rabbits - which surprised me because they are approximately the same size as our cats and she doesn't bother the cats including my daughter's barncat. I presume the cats (all of which are used to dogs) and rabbits give off different behavioral clues?

I had a horrible time walking Babykins for a while because she was so focused on the damn bunnies - and I guess that's her "prey drive". She does love to chase and be chased - that's her favorite game and if she wasn't on a leash I'm certain I would lose her chasing a rabbit into the woods. We went through a bird phase too but that seems to have passed. Other small wild animals like our chipmunks are game, but she seems to ignore the deer and horses. Oh, and very large leaves blowing in the wind are game too. I think it's the size - within a certain size range they could potentially catch it? My daughter's rough collie chases deer but ignores her horses.

I followed advice from both Catherine and one of my trainers. When out walking I play "focus on me" games with food rewards and I will put myself in between the "prey" and Babykins - everything I can to get her to follow me and ignore the wild animals. 

When the weather got cold we stopped seeing wild life, so I hope next spring her good walking behavior continues when the bunnies are more visible.

And I'm not so sure it's just a poodle thing - all the dogs in the neighborhood want to chase the bunnies.


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## Zorkon

When I was a kid, we had a miniature named Snoopy. We lived on a ravine and Snoopy used to survey the terrain for hours on end, looking to chase rabbits and ground hogs, which were bigger than him. Back then, everyone let their dogs run free, even in Toronto, which is where we lived. My sister and I each had a pet rabbit which we would let out to graze in our backyard and in the long grass where our backyard sloped down to the creek. As sunset would approach, we would get Snoopy and tell him to find the rabbits, so we could put them back in their hutch for the night. It would take him just seconds to find them. He knew they were part of the family, so he never tried to hurt them. I was always amazed that he could tell the difference between a rabbit that he could hunt and a rabbit that was off limits.


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## Laumau

My guy is just a puppy but he loves to chase. I was having a hard time exercising him (before we started walking more) because he like to chase me and jump and play bite. I tied a stuffed chipmunk to a string on a long stick and he goes nuts chasing it. And he's so fast he catches it and goes to town "killing" it. He doesn't chase our cat at all. He gives her a wide berth because she puts him in his place.


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## Mfmst

As a puppy, Buck once chased a low-flying helicopter the length of our yard and has had many unconfirmed opossum kills. He's chases squirrels and the occasional rabbit that wanders into our yard. Much more prey driven than my Scotties.


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## CharismaticMillie

YES on the prey drive. Remember, poodles are retrievers/bird dogs!


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## snow0160

I wonder if toys also have that prey drive. How did they breed them down? 


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## MollyMuiMa

Hahaha! YES! Prey drive is VERY present in Molly's life! Funny thing is, is that it is strictly small wild things....and boy is she focused! When she spots or scents something like lizards,gophers, moving bugs, crickets etc.....she's relentless & fast . But if it's a larger animal like a possum, cat, bunny or bird, she's stealth like and will freeze('point') a moment, then try to creep up on it!! Of course the moment they spot her and run she's off like a bullet!
She never chases the family cats(unless they are playing), but is totally fascinated by a nephew's Box Turtle........a moving chew toy? hahaha! She also does not destroy her toys. She also only plays 'fetch' in the house but is not interested in retrieving toys or balls outside......I get the "You want me to run and get that?....NOT" look! Totally ignores even her most favorite Lambchop toy if I toss it outside.......


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## Skylar

Zorkon said:


> When I was a kid, we had a miniature named Snoopy. We lived on a ravine and Snoopy used to survey the terrain for hours on end, looking to chase rabbits and ground hogs, which were bigger than him. Back then, everyone let their dogs run free, even in Toronto, which is where we lived. My sister and I each had a pet rabbit which we would let out to graze in our backyard and in the long grass where our backyard sloped down to the creek. As sunset would approach, we would get Snoopy and tell him to find the rabbits, so we could put them back in their hutch for the night. It would take him just seconds to find them. He knew they were part of the family, so he never tried to hurt them. I was always amazed that he could tell the difference between a rabbit that he could hunt and a rabbit that was off limits.


Our tpoo used to round up our three cats - if Snowy had to go to the vet I could tell her to go get Snowy and she would bring back Snowy and no other cat - just the one I needed.

I just realized, being a water retriever, these dogs need good prey drive AND definitely not hunt and kill drive - or else there wouldn't be anything left of the bird to hand over to their owner.


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## Mfmst

Skylar, what an amazing story of a toy poodle herding cats! That's a marvel!


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## Skylar

Mfmst said:


> Skylar, what an amazing story of a toy poodle herding cats! That's a marvel!


I can't begin to tell you how handy that was, especially if one of them had to get medication. And being a tpoo meant she could easily go under the beds to get to the cats. Sadly I can't take credit for teaching Taffy to do this, and I wish I knew how to train my current minipoo Babykins to do this.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Skylar said:


> I'm glad you posted this - the responses are so interesting.* I never thought about the fact that the prey drive is separate from the hunt and kill drive but it does make sense. *My dog is also gentle with her toys - and her cats.
> 
> Babykins is fascinated by rabbits - which surprised me because they are approximately the same size as our cats and she doesn't bother the cats including my daughter's barncat. I presume the cats (all of which are used to dogs) and rabbits give off different behavioral clues?
> 
> I had a horrible time walking Babykins for a while because she was so focused on the damn bunnies - and I guess that's her "prey drive". She does love to chase and be chased - that's her favorite game and if she wasn't on a leash I'm certain I would lose her chasing a rabbit into the woods. We went through a bird phase too but that seems to have passed. Other small wild animals like our chipmunks are game, but she seems to ignore the deer and horses. Oh, and very large leaves blowing in the wind are game too. I think it's the size - within a certain size range they could potentially catch it? My daughter's rough collie chases deer but ignores her horses.
> 
> I followed advice from both Catherine and one of my trainers. When out walking I play "focus on me" games with food rewards and I will put myself in between the "prey" and Babykins - everything I can to get her to follow me and ignore the wild animals.
> 
> When the weather got cold we stopped seeing wild life, so I hope next spring her good walking behavior continues when the bunnies are more visible.
> 
> And I'm not so sure it's just a poodle thing - all the dogs in the neighborhood want to chase the bunnies.



My Lab use to kill wild bunnies too...and eat them, then throw up. Oy! But she left the neighbor's chickens alone and let them peck her muzzle when she hung out with them and she'd wag her tail as she lay still for them. lol. My Doberman use to begin a chase of deer when we hiked. Needless to say he needed prey training which I accomplished through the Premak principle. I used a helper, a 5 gal bucket, a rope and faux prey to assist. He then was very good in the woods and I could call him mid chase of deer. He already had a pretty darn good recall but that prey had been a little much for him.

Dogs have inherited from the common ancestor of the wolf and domestic dog what's referred to as the predatory motor patterns. There's a sequence that wolves go through as they hunt; *eye/orient, stalk, chase, grab, bite, kill, dissect, consume.* Dogs, being thought to be like juvenile wolves and having been selected by humans to excel at different jobs have had certain of these motor patterns enhanced or reduced through artificial selection... and some of it comes through natural selection, as dogs were evolving to live with humans. Border collies, for instance orient, stalk, chase but it stops there. They don't go on to the end of the sequence. Other breeds may engage in some of these motor patterns but stop earlier or later. Sheep guardian dogs such as the Great Pyrenees, maremma, and Anatolian shepherd _don't _show these predatory sequences. 

And it isn't likely to be exact. For instance, some individuals may vary from the norm. A border collie that kills sheep would likely not be kept by a rancher and would be culled most likely so that would reduce even further eventually. I bet there are still a few oddities that do go through the sequence in spite of selection. Genetics is a funny thing.

With evolution, the brains of dogs got smaller and there were changes in the pituitary, in neurotransmitters... hormones, dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin and endorphins that are connected to docility increased and that is thought to govern the break-up of the whole sequence of predatory motor patterns. It has been shown that docility/tameness (as tamer wolf ancestors were evolving) (see Russian fox study) brings on these metamorphic changes. And that is why these predatory motor patterns are different in dogs than wolves.

I have a theory that some of what our dogs do, though it looks like predatory behaviors and probably is very much derived by from these predatory patterns may have, in part, morphed to be pure and simple, nothing more than play behaviors. Dogs as adults play more than wolves as adults. They are thought to be _neotenic_, like wolf pups. (Incidentally, we are thought to be neotenic versions of chimpanzees. We play more as adults than they do) Dogs and humans...hmmm, food for thought. :act-up:


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## LittleAussiePoodle

Hendrix has a fairly strong prey drive. He does not perform all of the behaviours on the hunting sequence, however. Hendrix does not track. At all. Most poodle have a good nose but Hendrix very VERY rarely puts his nose to the ground. He does not use his eyes for searching the horizon much either. I believe this is because of his unilateral microphthalmia, but I can't be sure.
He has started using his eyes more since getting more water confidence, but he still only really shows the chasing and grabbing behaviours. His chasing instinct is rather strong, but he doesn't do very much other than bite the thing, then carry it in circles around the house. In that way, he shows a behaviour sequence you would expect to see in any good dog of a gun breed.
Chase, grab, carry. Do nothing else with the object.
I personally don't believe he would hurt an animal intentionally. He has a pleasingly soft mouth and while he does sometimes pounce if a ball moves fast enough, he never bites hard or really does anything with it. He's totally chase and not kill. I think he would get a real shock if he grabbed something and it moved. Again, I don't think he'd do anything. He likes shaking soft toys, but he's never had anything move in his mouth and I just have a feeling he'd drop it to do that weird playing-with-his-food thing, which he does to rawhides. Run away, bark at it, rush at it, run away again.

For your dog chasing squirrels, I suggest employing Premack. I used it to get Hendrix to stop chasing birds (he HATES magpies). I taught him to heel at my side at a distance from the birds and whenever he did it well, I released him to chase them. Premack states that a more likely behaviour will reinforce a less likely behaviour. The release cue becomes a secondary reinforcer and you get a dog who believe the release cue is much better than no release cue.


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## snow0160

That is a really interesting point. Do all poodles have soft mouth? I know my pug and maremma does not. Do all dogs with soft mouths drool or is that just Lucky. I can only play catch with him for 5 min ball becomes a slimy mess. My pug can go for hours and the ball is very dry. 


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## LittleAussiePoodle

I don't think all poodles have a soft mouth, no. It is a gundog trait, so most do, but poodles are in the utility group because many of them do not display gundog traits. Labradors, Goldens, Flat coats, Curly coats, Chesapeake, ect all have soft mouths (or should). That's because they are retrievers, bred to be gundogs.
Poodles usually have a soft mouth, water drive, and chase instinct - all of which are gundog traits - but not all do. I personally like poodles to act a lot like a more chilled out Labrador, in more ways than one. Water drive and retrieving ability are two of the biggest things I look for in dogs, and is why I got a poodle.
Dogs bred for retrieving must have a soft mouth, or they will destroy anything they retrieve. Generally if you have a dog who displays this gundog trait, he will also have a soft mouth. The two are usually bred hand-in-hand.

Hendrix does not drool, but when he drinks water, he drops it EVERYWHERE. Dogs only drool onto the floor if they have loose jowls, but some dogs do slobber all over toys. I haven't really thought about why, but some dogs do tend to make more spit than others. If a dog holds an object for a long period of time, he may produce more slobber than one who holds an object for a shorter period of time. That's because most dogs don't swallow while holding an object, so it build up.


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## snow0160

I think I am getting drool confused with slobber. Lucky slobbers all over his toy and actually drools very little. He does leave moist spots on the floor when he lays his head on the floor.


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## WinnieJane

We thought our spoo had no prey drive -- as a young pup, she failed to notice an injured bird 2 feet away, and once dozed in the yard as I watched a shrew scurry by. It kicked in full force at 5 months. It is a problem because it extends to cars and strollers. (And I had gone out of my way to desensitize her to all things on wheels when we got first got her!) Her behavior on the leash is now so bad that we have an appointment with a behavioral vet specialist in two weeks, on the advice of our trainer. I am very frustrated and worried.

I will say that she has a very soft mouth. That's something for the plus column!


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## lily cd re

WinnieJane I am sorry to see you have hit a rough patch with the leash. I hope things improve with your specialist's advise. Please let us know how it goes.


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## WinnieJane

lily cd re said:


> WinnieJane I am sorry to see you have hit a rough patch with the leash. I hope things improve with your specialist's advise. Please let us know how it goes.


Thank you, Catherine! It is really disheartening, but our dog walker sent us to an excellent trainer, who has hooked us up with the behaviorist. I feel like we have a whole team on our side.


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## snow0160

Winnie, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I think it is a great choice to hire a behavioralist. It is really nice to have someone tailor training to isolate the trigger. I think what is great is that poodles are highly trainable with practice and patience. Please do keep us updated on how it goes.


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## WinnieJane

snow0160 said:


> Winnie, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I think it is a great choice to hire a behavioralist. It is really nice to have someone tailor training to isolate the trigger. I think what is great is that poodles are highly trainable with practice and patience. Please do keep us updated on how it goes.


Thank you - this is reassuring!


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## blueroan

My tpoo had ZERO prey drive once he got out of puppyhood. You'd throw a toy and there'd be no interest. The only thing he went after was other dogs but he just didn't know how to interact with them...basically would pull for them and when he got there, yell in their faces. Oi. 

Honey LOVES playing with her ball. But she doesn't chase animals. We have a chipmunk in the backyard and she's seen him, but doesn't chase him. We've had squirrels cross our path when we've been out walking and she looks with interest, but doesn't chase. Not even cats!!

It's kinda cute actually. We had a robin migration stay with us for a few days and she'd sit outside and watch the birds fly around!

Actually she DOES chase one living thing. Flies!! lol


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## CharismaticMillie

WinnieJane said:


> We thought our spoo had no prey drive -- as a young pup, she failed to notice an injured bird 2 feet away, and once dozed in the yard as I watched a shrew scurry by. It kicked in full force at 5 months. It is a problem because it extends to cars and strollers. (And I had gone out of my way to desensitize her to all things on wheels when we got first got her!) Her behavior on the leash is now so bad that we have an appointment with a behavioral vet specialist in two weeks, on the advice of our trainer. I am very frustrated and worried.
> 
> I will say that she has a very soft mouth. That's something for the plus column!


That sounds to me more like leash reactivity than prey drive. Glad you will be working with a behavioral specialist, I am sure you will see great improvement! Hang in there.


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## Poodlemanic

I'm interested in what your trainers say too. My two standard poodles are interested in cats, other dogs, deer, whatever and would chase them if possible....but they are certainly NOT prey-driven. They are so inherently gentle! Unlike my other dogs, who are driven to kill anything that is a threat to our livestock (or us). Our poodles are so markedly different in that way, so kind and gentle.


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## LittleAussiePoodle

Hendrix is the same. He chases, but just for fun. He would never hurt anything. The other day he caught a bird in the backyard. He loves to chase them, but usually they fly away. Well, this one didn't for some reason, and he managed to grab it. He then promptly dropped it and tried to sniff it as it lay there in shock. I called him and he just gave it one last look, trotted back, and came inside. I don't think he expected it to just sit there.
I went and looked at it, the bird barely even had ruffled feathers, it looked fine. I think he just scared it, because it was gone when I looked a few minutes later. That's why I say he has a soft mouth. He grabs things, but barely hangs on, he just applies enough pressure to hold them. If that had been my old dog, the bird would not have stood a chance, but Hendrix didn't seem to want to do anything other than hold it. 
He's the same with toys, he just runs in circles around the house with them, he never chews them. Poodles seems to be very gentle with their mouths, and with animals. Hendrix has only met two cats, both on leash, but he's totally fine with them. My other dog grew up with cats and would probably still kill one if he could catch it. Interesting how that works.


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## Skylar

Poodlemanic said:


> I'm interested in what your trainers say too. My two standard poodles are interested in cats, other dogs, deer, whatever and would chase them if possible....but they are certainly NOT prey-driven. They are so inherently gentle! Unlike my other dogs, who are driven to kill anything that is a threat to our livestock (or us). Our poodles are so markedly different in that way, so kind and gentle.


The need to chase other animals is the "prey drive" - so when you say your two spoos' want to chase other animals then they are prey-driven. 

What they don't have is the "hunt and kill drive" which is different and separate. They aren't a threat to your livestock but they may be an annoyance if they want to chase them. I looked up the concept of a "soft" mouth because I had never heard that term before and basically it's what LittleAussiePoodle described with her dog Hendrix where they will hold the prey to carry and control it as part of being a retrieving dog. Poodles are retrievers. Some dog breeds are bred to kill and tear apart their prey such as terriers who were bred to exterminate rodents, but not poodles.


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## lily cd re

Well said Skylar on the distinction between prey drive and killing. The only thing I would add is that once a dog has had the chance to kill that drive is likely to be permanently activated.


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## HeritageHills

Both of my spoos have pretty high prey drives for birds. Specifically my chickens :-| . They have gotten out of their yard a few times and killed some of them. I had tried to get them used to the chickens by having them around them but where they couldn't hurt them but obviously it didn't work. My Goldendoodle was amazing with chickens though. She could be right in the yard with them and would just sniff them if she even paid them that much attention. Stella and our cat Asher are buddies, but Cassie is too hyper around him for his taste.


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## Carolinek

I don't know about chickens, but Lily is a good little mouser! She has surprised us with a couple "presents" from outside. 

Max, not so much- it would be too much work!


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## snow0160

Lucky is also obsessed with my cat Spunky. They play hide and seek. The cat will also jump out of nowhere to sneak attack. Ive seen Spunky lick and rub all over Lucky, who will reciprocate by play bowing and licking. I think the reason for Luckys behavior is the high prey drive and the fact this cat is very playful. Unlike Kit, who is annoying and much bigger, the cat is a much funnier playmate.


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## Carolinek

That sounds like it's quite a riot to watch!


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## MollyMuiMa

Molly has a very active prey drive but her kill drive is very selective so far! She will snap the neck of a rodent or gopher in a second......... but when it comes to cats she wants to play with them! She ignores outside birds so far, but caged birds are a fascination and my nephew's box turtle... I think she thinks it's a moving dog toy-- she wants to 'fetch it'!!..... But Lily is right...once that drive to kill is there it's there! Molly re-visits every gopher hole on our walks every single day!


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## Poodlemanic

I never thought of the definitions exactly, but I thought "prey drive" meant, driven to kill prey. Our poodles are so gentle, they are fascinated by other animals but not to kill or harm. Just curious. Believe me, we have other breeds who DO love to kill things. THAT's what I thought prey-drive was!


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## snow0160

I thought prey drive was the act of chasing moving objects like a bunny or ball. Lucky chases squirrels but I don't think he would kill it but his chasing might scare it to death lol


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