# Harvest Moon Standard Poodles (IN)



## BaileyWilliams (Jan 31, 2017)

Hello,

I am looking for feedback that anyone might have on Harvest Moon Standard Poodles in Anderson, IN. We are considering putting a deposit on a puppy that seems to fit exactly what we are looking for. Becky is the breeder and is welcoming us to come visit the parents and see where the puppies are living. Any feedback/experience is appreciated. Thank you!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I'd keep looking. From the big signs (they don't have any health info listed) to the small signs (they misspell parti), this has all the earmarks of irresponsible breeding. If you're in the midwest, check out:

Spirit
Highview
Natalie's


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I prefer breeder websites that put the emphasis on their adult breeding stock, including registered names, titles, and health testing. This one does the opposite--lots of pictures and information about available puppies, and no registered names or evidence/links to testing. Liz made some good suggestions above. I would add Jacknic.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I wonder too, about about a breeder who sells stud services to just anybody. I would think a reputable breeder would want to help with that arrangement. 

Yes, I see no specific health testing. If you ask them about it, be sure to get proof and evaluate. Yes, I don't see much about the breeding dogs at all.

Who are the ancestors? Are they registered and are there any titles on these dogs? Some of the ancestors were likely solid color and there should be some champions in their lines. Are there? I'd want to know that their conformation and temperaments have been verified by judges.

Anyhow, bottom line...she may breed nice dogs but there's nothing to go by. It looks to me like a byb. I do like that she apparently doesn't breed a whole lot. And probably doesn't have a whole ton of dogs. You might get some references if you decide to pursue this.

Over all...if it were me, I'd keep looking.


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## BaileyWilliams (Jan 31, 2017)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I wonder too, about about a breeder who sells stud services to just anybody. I would think a reputable breeder would want to help with that arrangement.
> 
> Yes, I see no specific health testing. If you ask them about it, be sure to get proof and evaluate. Yes, I don't see much about the breeding dogs at all.
> 
> ...




What kind of proof should I request for health testing? Is it okay if I see a document in-person, but nothing online? Thanks!!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

BaileyWilliams said:


> What kind of proof should I request for health testing? Is it okay if I see a document in-person, but nothing online?


From the PCA website

Hip Dysplasia: OFA, OVC, or PennHIP Evaluation;
Eye Exam by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist (results registered with OFA or CERF);
Either: OFA Thyroid Evaluation from an approved laboratory or OFA Sebaceous Adenitis (SA) Evaluation from an approved dermatopathologist;
And hopefully: from an OFA-approved laboratory. DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEWS); and
DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)

It looks like a lot, but they should be able to give you a CHIC number, which consolidates the tests and results.

There are horrible stories about puppy mill scams where the breeder "forgets" the paperwork when she meets with you but promises the parents passed their tests. If it ain't on CHIC, it didn't happen.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

BaileyWilliams said:


> What kind of proof should I request for health testing? Is it okay if I see a document in-person, but nothing online? Thanks!!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sort of. Two issues: the vast majority of breeders use OFA certification for hips, a core health test for standard poodles. So at a minimum those records should be online at OFA if you have the registered names of the sire and dam. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals If the breeder uses Pennhip, the other accepted method of evaluating hips, then she should report the Pennhip values and percentile values (how a dog compares to others in the same breed).

The second issue is more subtle, but it's about transparency and making it EASY for puppy buyers to verify that a breeder has done the required testing, and to see the results. If a breeder can manage to upload photos to a website, she can just as easily, or even more easily, include registered names and proof of testing. Proof of testing can include links to OFA and scanned copies of DNA and other health testing.

Oh, and to answer the other part of your question, the requirements for a CHIC number for standard poodles (the basic set of health tests according to the breed club) are:

--Hips
--Annual OFA eye exam that screens for congenital and acquired eye conditions
--OFA thyroid OR cardiac OR skin punch for sebaceous adenitis (Charismatic Millie and I do all three)

There are also two or three DNA tests that most breeders do:

--Neanatal encephalopathy (not really your problem because breeding two carriers results in dead puppies for the breeder, not a sick dog for you)

--Von willebrand's disease (a bleeding disorder)

--Degenerative myelopathy (this one is a bit less core because it isn't clear what the relationship is between carrier/affected status and disease in the breed)

There are two relative new eye-related DNA tests, one for a form of PRA that can (rarely) affect standards, the other a test for day-blindness. I would make these a lower priority *except* that day blindness seems to occur most often in parti-poodle lines. So if I were shopping for a parti I might insist on that test.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Things I like:
1. Small scale breeder who has only one litter a year and has dogs who live in the house as members of the family. I like the description of how the puppies are raised. Having raised Cammie's litter, I have seen first hand how important it is for a momma dog to be comfortable, happy and fully supported by her humans. A secure, happy momma passes that security along to her pups and gives them a good start in life.
2. I like the focus on temperament: "Their temperament is equally important, which is why our dogs are quiet and very laid back." I really like poodles that are laid back.
3. The web site mentions "extensive health testing."
4. The breeder has suggested that you come to visit and meet the parents.

Things that I don't like:
1. Absolutely no information is given about the parent dogs. No registered names listed, no pictures, no descriptions, no pedigrees. You shouldn’t have to ask for this info.
2. No details given on health testing. No links to ofa.
3. I don't like the puppy contract.

Some of the things in my "like" list are very important and often overlooked. Getting a pup from a happy healthy momma who is not over-bred or stressed is very important IMO. Also, temperament is very important. For these reasons, I think it is important for puppy buyers to meet the breeder and the momma dog in person. Look into that momma's eyes and see what she tells you. Some of the saddest poodles I have ever seen have been breeder dogs. But many breeders have mommas that are well supported, secure, happy dogs. I think it makes a huge difference in the quality of the puppy that you get. 

Some good suggestions have been given for checking out other breeders, and I agree that that is probably the right thing to do. But if you want to continue to consider this breeder, I would verify health testing (seeing original certificates would be OK), and I would want more information about the parent dogs. If you get the registered names, you can look them up on poodledata.org or phrdatabase.com. Whatever breeder you decide to go with, I definitely recommend meeting the breeder and her dogs before you make a final decision.

Best of luck to you as you make this important decision.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with the above comments about what to look for in terms of testing and being able to easily access it.

Additionally I would add Safari to the list of breeders to look at in the Midwest. My girl Lily's sire is a Safari champion.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Another comment on health testing. While I do think that breeders should do basic health testing, it is important to note that the tests do not give as much overall assurance as some might think. For a very good summary of what health tests tell you and what they don't tell you, see this page and the pages that follow it (just keep clicking "next"):

What do the tests really mean? - Poodles de Grenier


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I agree! But the way I think about it, in standard poodles especially, testing is the EASY part. In standards, we don't have good tests for the things that really keep us awake at night, like AD, bloat, and SA. But if a breeder isn't even doing the basic, easy part, what else isn't she doing? 

I strongly encourage puppy buyers to seek out breeders who health test because it is at least a signal that they are trying. I am shocked by how many breeders fail even that basic screen. 

Health testing doesn't guarantee healthy poodles any more than AKC registration guarantees quality lines. But the lack of those things should be big red flags. 



peppersb said:


> Another comment on health testing. While I do think that breeders should do basic health testing, it is important to note that the tests do not give as much overall assurance as some might think. For a very good summary of what health tests tell you and what they don't tell you, see this page and the pages that follow it (just keep clicking "next"):
> 
> What do the tests really mean? - Poodles de Grenier


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

This looks like the kind of breeder who knows how to talk the talk but not walk the walk. Why give your money to a breeder who doesn't have the breed's best interest at heart? You've been given several other good breeders to look into, and I think that would be a good start to your search. If you decide to visit the breeder you mentioned, insist on proof of health testing being emailed to you before you go look at cute puppies. All puppies are cute, so make sure you've found a responsible breeder before you go fall for one.


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## BaileyWilliams (Jan 31, 2017)

Everyone was right and I learned a lesson! We drove to Indianapolis then found out she blocked me on Facebook. I found her phone number and address on her website. I left a voicemail and said we were on our way to the address listed on the website. She called me back and went on and on about why it wouldn't work. At least we had a fun night in Indianapolis!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

We don't lie.


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## BaileyWilliams (Jan 31, 2017)

I didn't mean to imply that. I read and take all of your feedback seriously. I'm not surprised that this happened- we wanted to have a weekend trip anyway. I just want to share my experiences. 


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

It's a colloquialism.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

Oh wow!! I'm glad you got something fun out of it. And it's far better to learn now that you're dealing with a sketchy breeder than after the fact. 



BaileyWilliams said:


> Everyone was right and I learned a lesson! We drove to Indianapolis then found out she blocked me on Facebook. I found her phone number and address on her website. I left a voicemail and said we were on our way to the address listed on the website. She called me back and went on and on about why it wouldn't work. At least we had a fun night in Indianapolis!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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