# Coefficient of inbreeding %s??



## LynnO (Feb 2, 2013)

I would like to know opinions on this as well, as I am still learning.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Here is Ernie's COI:
10-generation COI 12.61% 
12-generation COI 14.63% 

It is pretty easy to look up COIs yourself. Here's how:
1. Get the registered name of the dog (Ernie is Eaglehill's Quick Step)
2. Go to Poodle Pedigree
3. Move your cursor to the Contents tab on the left and select "Search for a Dog."
4. Enter part or all of the registered name.
5. Click through to the page for the dog you want. A 5 generation pedigree will be displayed.
6. Scroll down and click on the link to "View Genetic Information for ..."


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Ty Peppersb,
At what % is the COI to high? Research suggests 6% or less. This pair combined is aprox 20% is that to high? And will that suggest a possibility of more health issues as the dog ages? 
Thank you


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

20% is certainly high and that would be a bit of a red flag for me. But there is no perfect breeding, and there are lots of other factors to take into account. What do you know about the health of the dogs in the pedigree? You could look the parent dogs up on phrdatabase.com (you have to register to use the database, but it is free). Of course, there's a lot of illness that goes unreported, so the information there is far from complete. 

Dr. John Armstrong's research showed that on average, poodles with a low COI (6.25 or less) live 4 years longer than poodles with a very high COI (25% or more). 

Results of the Standard Poodle Longevity Study


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

I was always taught 15% was top end (line bred) sometimes linebreeding is a great option. 

under 6% is great under 10%would be my ideal.


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

neVar said:


> I was always taught 15% was top end (line bred) sometimes linebreeding is a great option.
> 
> under 6% is great under 10%would be my ideal.


Well, I just finished talking to her about it. We have been speaking for about 6-7 months now. She said the dogs were fully tested. She does post all her testing results and has been very forthcoming with me about her lines. She told me to trust her. That she stands behind her dogs. I tend to trust her judgement. It is Debbie from eaglehill south.


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

missmygirls said:


> She told me to trust her.


To me, the words "trust me" are probably the words most likely to make me doubt someone! 

I'm trying to think of this in simpler terms... So would 20% inbreeding be the equivalent of a human pair of cousins having a baby? Admittedly, the whole line breeding thing has never made much sense to me. Good thing I have no aspirations to breed! The whole inbreeding coefficient concept just drives me a little bit crazy! And it makes me all the more content that I don't foresee ever shopping for a purebred poodle puppy. (Rescue is the way to go in my book!)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

20% is quite high today (pretty average in the past). The sire and dam of this litter have the same mother and different fathers. They are half siblings. In a standard poodle I would avoid such a litter, but you are looking at minis. Other than knees, elbows, teeth and perhaps eyes, minis don't have many health issues. She fully health tests including the joints and they are listed on ofa. 

You'll notice that much of the research into poodle diversity is with standards because they are the ones who's hair started falling out, who bloated, had bad allergies, had epilepsy, got hip dysplasia and the like. None of that is true in the mini. That isn't to say it couldn't become true if breeders aren't careful, but right now minis remain pretty healthy. 

Also, know that we are all a bunch of people who like poodles and not much more. Not many are true breeders. A true breeder might not feel comfortable answering your question. The best reference will come from other people who have owned her dogs. I searched this forum and there were a few mentions of Eaglehill over the years. One person had one and said they were gorgeous and incredibly smart. 

A standard with that COI? For me- no way, the lower the better.
A mini? I would hesitate and ask questions just like you are, but it probably is not as much of an issue.

I might ask her how long her dogs live next time you talk to her, but if she stands behind her dogs like she says than I would tend to believe her, too. She is actively involved in the breed. I doubt she would want to do anything to harm them.  They are mini's, not standards.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I applaud you for being so thorough in searching for a good breeder. And I'm sorry for the health issues your former mpoo suffered, how difficult for you both!

I don't know if you're familiar with the Versatility in Poodles website, this info isn't pertinent to COIs, but pertains to the recommended health tests for minis. It's likely info you already know, but it's a good, reliable summary so I'm sharing it. Good luck finding your next mini! Versatility In Poodles - Find A Poodle

*
VIP RECOMMENDED GENETIC AND HEALTH TESTS FOR MINIATURE POODLES *
In order to obtain a Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) number, the Miniature Poodle must have completed testing and be registered with the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) in the following areas:

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing from an approved laboratory Eye clearance by the Canine Eye Registry Foundation (CERF)
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation

The above tests are considered the minimum testing required for Miniature Poodles that will be used for breeding. Please note that designation with a CHIC number does not show that the dog actually passed the testing, only that the tests were administered. To check the testing that has been done on a dog, you will need either the dog's OFA number, the CHIC number, the registration number, or the registered name of the dog. To check the dog’s testing status, go to: Orthopedic Foundation for Animals.

Many breeders will perform additional testing on their breeding stock. All testing is valuable and gives information regarding the breeder's interest in the future of his/her breeding program. Using the tools that are currently available will allow the breeder to successfully use the entire gene pool in combinations that provide for a healthy future of the breed.

Other health problems that can currently be tested for include Legg-Calve-Perthes (LCP), thyroid, elbow dysplasia and von Willebrand’s disease. Also, there is a true difference in types of testing. Very few of our available tests measure genotype (actual DNA sequence of a gene). Most of our tests measure phenotype (a physical evaluation is used to measure the health of an individual in the hope of providing information about genotype). For a variety of reasons, phenotypic testing provides less reliable information about the genes a given dog might pass on to offspring. For a full explanation of the interpretation and use of phenotype testing, see the article found on the OFA web pages:
http://offa.org/hovanart.pdf.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Last time I looked they had many champions as well as title holders in obedience, agility, rally. I like it when breeders do something with their dogs. If this breeding concerns you then wait for a different breeding, if you have a comfortable relationship with them. If no then move on. You might want to consider an OT as well.


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Yes, the sire Ernie, has an agility title and I actually checked out a facility here around the corner that offers classes in agility. I think I may try my hand at it. Even if I did it for fun, the dog would love the exercise and it would be a good bonding experience for us. I m pretty sure I couldnt afford to compete. It looks like a lot of travel. Maybe one day. 
They also offer flyball, dock jumping, obedience, sheep herding, Frisbee clinics, and a bunch more. I am so excited. Its called the canine ranch. Has anyone ever heard of it? Do poodles do things like doc jumping or flyball? Minis that is? I want to do something with my dog but it has to affordable. 
Thank you for all the advise friends. Keep it coming. I appreciate it.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You forgot tricks! Poodles are the perfect trick dogs. Here's my girl Bonnie:
























Do poodles do dock jumping?
here is my girls sister:









 Poodles can do tons of things. Minis are particularly active and smart. My sister in laws does lots of things for fun. She liked that Bonnie jumped through a hoop. It took her one day to teach Chili to do it, too


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*missmygirls*: Please forgive my elbowing in on your thread here. I'm going to grab the chance to ask a COI question of my own. 

For those focused on and knowledgeable about COI, and willing to reply, I want to ask whether you would have selected this mpoo pup, who happens to be Chagall, based on his COI numbers. Just curious, and I'd be truly appreciative of any and all replies. As an aside, I know his dam, sire, grand-dam, grand-sire, one uncle and several half siblings. When I chose him (actually, the breeder guided me to him), it was the line's temperament that sold me. I didn't know a "COI" from an "ABC" back then. I did know about the other customary health testing for mpoos, his breeder readily provided those.Thanks!:smile:

10-generation COI	5.83%
12-generation COI	6.21%

Top 5 ancestors contributing to COI, in order of influence:

AM CH Award Mr Pipp	3.18%
Cabryn Blue Belle	1.60%
AM CH Manorhill's Classic Touch TP	0.15%
AM CH Jamelle's Santana	0.12%
AM CH Char-K Touch Of Class TP	0.12%


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> *missmygirls*: Please forgive my elbowing in on your thread here. I'm going to grab the chance to ask a COI question of my own.
> 
> For those focused on and knowledgeable about COI, and willing to reply, I want to ask whether you would have selected this mpoo pup, who happens to be Chagall, based on his COI numbers. Just curious, and I'd be truly appreciative of any and all replies. As an aside, I know his dam, sire, grand-dam, grand-sire, one uncle and several half siblings. When I chose him (actually, the breeder guided me to him), it was the line's temperament that sold me. I didn't know a "COI" from an "ABC" back then. I did know about the other customary health testing for mpoos, his breeder readily provided those.Thanks!:smile:
> 
> ...


I didn't research mpoos but I think the average COI is arround 6% so Chagall is in the range. What I like is that many of her ancestors have a low COI. I would register her in the Poodle Health registry to see other COI related information like the number of unique dogs in the pedigree (U) and number of common ancestors for sire and dam (C). The genetic influence of the 5 top ancestors is nicely spread so this is good. I am focused on low COI and I would certainly have selected this mpoo puppy but probably after looking at the U and C values or counting them myself if not available (I really like numbers!)


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> I applaud you for being so thorough in searching for a good breeder. And I'm sorry for the health issues your former mpoo suffered, how difficult for you both!
> 
> I don't know if you're familiar with the Versatility in Poodles website, this info isn't pertinent to COIs, but pertains to the recommended health tests for minis. It's likely info you already know, but it's a good, reliable summary so I'm sharing it. Good luck finding your next mini! Versatility In Poodles - Find A Poodle
> 
> ...


Don't mind a bit.... I hope my girl is every bit as beautiful inside and out as your Chagall. I just hope I dont have to wait too long, seeming as I already have her whole life planned out already lol...I just need a good groomer and vet that knows something about poodles.


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

missmygirls said:


> Don't mind a bit.... I hope my girl is every bit as beautiful inside and out as your Chagall. I just hope I dont have to wait too long, seeming as I already have her whole life planned out already lol...I just need a good groomer and vet that knows something about poodles.


sorry quoted the wrong post lol. Its late!


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

julietcr1 said:


> I didn't research mpoos but I think the average COI is arround 6% so Chagall is in the range. What I like is that many of her ancestors have a low COI. I would register her in the Poodle Health registry to see other COI related information like the number of unique dogs in the pedigree (U) and number of common ancestors for sire and dam (C). The genetic influence of the 5 top ancestors is nicely spread so this is good. I am focused on low COI and I would certainly have selected this mpoo puppy but probably after looking at the U and C values or counting them myself if not available (I really like numbers!)


THis is where I get lost. How many u ancestors should there be over 10 years? Both the pups parents have the same mom. Is that super bad?


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

missmygirls said:


> THis is where I get lost. How many u ancestors should there be over 10 years? Both the pups parents have the same mom. Is that super bad?


I understand you are lost, genetic is not easy, in fact it is still a big mystery even for experts.

I would definitely not adopt a pup if I knew his parents have the same mom (even if the pup was a mixed breed). Like I said before, I have a scientific background and some genetic knowledge so my decisions are based on what I have learned, studies, statistics etc. 

Like someone else said on this forum, adopting a pure bred dog is already a "genetic health risk" because they are the result of human made inbreeding and linebreeding. I took this risk twice even if I have a scientific and genetic background.

Your question "How many u ancestors should there be over 10 years?" has no exact answer but I can say the more unique ancestors the more chance of "diversity" in the gene pool so MAYBE less genetic health and temper problems. 

When looking for a spoo (numbers could be different for minis and toys) I first look for parents with COI under 6% and 700 or more u ancestors over 10 generation (The maximun unique ancestors is 2046 for 10 generation). They do exist, here is an example :

Sushi's Sire
COI = 5.0%[10G,10F,749U,150C]
749 unique ancestors

Sushi's Dam
COI = 1.8%[10G,10F,975U,198C]
975 unique ancerstors

Average spoos have 500 unique ancestors (and many still have a COI under 15%)

This standard (did not keep the name) has a COI of only 10.2% which is considered low for a spoo but only 434 unique ancestors. I would carfully study the pedigree to look for repetitive linebreeding and some inbreeding. 
COI = 10.2%[10G,10F,434U,94C]

Hope this helps.


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## MaryEdwards (Oct 29, 2012)

It is pretty easy to look up COIs yourself. Here's how:
1. Get the registered name of the dog (Ernie is Eaglehill's Quick Step)
2. Go to Poodle Pedigree
3. Move your cursor to the Contents tab on the left and select "Search for a Dog."
4. Enter part or all of the registered name.
5. Click through to the page for the dog you want. A 5 generation pedigree will be displayed.
6. Scroll down and click on the link to "View Genetic Information for ..."[/QUOTE]

This is a great web site!! So easy to use and so informational. I had been considering trying to find out Bentley's info, and there it all was. Thanks


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

MaryEdwards said:


> It is pretty easy to look up COIs yourself. Here's how:
> 1. Get the registered name of the dog (Ernie is Eaglehill's Quick Step)
> 2. Go to Poodle Pedigree
> 3. Move your cursor to the Contents tab on the left and select "Search for a Dog."
> ...


This is a great web site!! So easy to use and so informational. I had been considering trying to find out Bentley's info, and there it all was. Thanks[/QUOTE]

I have been on this site all day today lol. First off I do not know what any of the letters and numbers stand for. Next to the testing done for the patellas and the like. I dont see where it says fair good or excellent for hips. Not much is listed under longevity. Maybe a couple here and there. Does that mean how old the dog is to date?? I think I am even more frustrated... I know I am not stupid, but this makes me feel stupid. I am a visual learner and I guess I am going to have to print the whole darn line out for the last 10 years in order to make sense of it and find the shared ancestors. I can see the shared mother but I cant see the other shared family that bumps the coi so high. Sigh...this should not be so hard.


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Coi percentages*

You should look for those percentages at no more than six percent...If you look closely you can see line breeding and see what problems those dogs had...those problems are increased by line breeding...I lost my parti standard to nasal cancer at seven and when researching his lineage discovered cancer, tumors etc with lots of line in breeding...


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Grey ember said:


> You should look for those percentages at no more than six percent...If you look closely you can see line breeding and see what problems those dogs had...those problems are increased by line breeding...I lost my parti standard to nasal cancer at seven and when researching his lineage discovered cancer, tumors etc with lots of line in breeding...


I'm so sorry for your loss. I know how heartbreaking that is. Do you happen to know what all the letters and numbers mean after the test? For example:
Patella clearance: OFA PO-PA1042/29F/P-VPI I havent a clue what that means. Elbo clearance: OFA PO EL1077F30-VPI
Hips: OFA PO-17859E30F-VPIEyes say normal clear: THAT I UNDERSTAND LOL

I may or may not choose a dog from this litter, but I sure would like to cut my teeth on this pedigree so the next is a lot easier for me to read.

And where do you find out if an ancestor had health problems. I dont see that info listed.
This may be a stupid question, but when they list the longevity age, does that mean the dog has passed or that's its current age at this point in time?
I dont mean for this to drone on and on. I am just a little slow when it comes to this, and I really would like to understand it. 
thank you


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Coi info*

I think those numbers are registering numbers for the testing...not sure. some breeders are providing five generation info on parents which show coi info..I think it may be a software program...you can easily see the lineage and problems of the grandparents,etc...ask the breeder about this...


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Breeder who supply coi info...*

Not sure what you are looking for. ...look at paisleylanepoodles...they have that info


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## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Grey ember said:


> Not sure what you are looking for. ...look at paisleylanepoodles...they have that info


I found some info on my breeders site. I somehow missed it. It has a link to all his tests/ scores/ and relatives. I feel really dumb right now that I missed that. That helps ALOT. I am really on the fence with this one. All the stats look pretty good to me. The Dam has a very low coi only 1,77% for 12 years. 
I may roll the dice with this one....My only major pause is with the shared mother. 
Ty friends for your patience.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think when reading your posts you say " year" but we are talking "generations" which is different. Maybe I am confused with your post. I think it might be easier if you research the breeder websites if the have any to research longevity.


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Coi for puppy*

What is the puppies coi?..and where is the line breeding...the shared mother?


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*1.77 coi*

If you have a 1.77 coi 12 generations..that is a very good number


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am trying to find my dog SARATOGA'S SWIZZLE STICK but nothing came up. I looked up his sire CH SARATOGA'S STERLING SILVER and it says the COI is zero. His dam did not come up CH SARATOGA'S SILVER SYNCHRONICITY. Why don't they come up. I know he is registered, I have his pedigree from the AKC. Can you have a COI of zero?


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*0 coi*

I don't see that as possible...if it is calculated for a few generations back. I know when you include 12 generations or so the coi goes up.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Grey ember said:


> If you have a 1.77 coi 12 generations..that is a very good number


Not necessarily. If there's health issues already in the lines the number hardly means anything. This is my dogs pedigree, her 12 gen is 1.50%, yet her line has bloat, epilepsy, HD, and addisons.

If the dogs were linebred, then you know the dogs that carry it, while Vienna's pedigree is SO diverse, you never know which of those dogs is passing along those issues.


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Yes*

you are correct...However, if there is less inbreeding your odds are better that those bad genes will be more recessive..unless of course both lines carry the same problems.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Not necessarily. If there's health issues already in the lines the number hardly means anything. This is my dogs pedigree, her 12 gen is 1.50%, yet her line has bloat, epilepsy, HD, and addisons.
> 
> If the dogs were linebred, then you know the dogs that carry it, while Vienna's pedigree is SO diverse, you never know which of those dogs is passing along those issues.


For a COI to have any meaning at all, I think it needs be based on 10 full generations of dogs--dogs that are actually identified. In the case of your dog, there are lots and lots of "unknowns." If you look at the five generation pedigree, you can see that there are 2 unknowns in generation 5. Unfortunately a 10 generation pedigree would not even come close to fitting on your screen. But if you want to take the time, you can click on each and every dog in generation 5, and see the 5 generations behind them. That's when you really start to see a lot of unknowns. The unknowns can give an artificially low COI.

I should note that I agree with you that COI (even a COI based on known ancestors) is only one of many things to take into account. While low COIs are generally associated with better health, it is certainly possible to have unhealthy dogs that have low COIs. And when you breed unhealthy dogs to each other, you are likely to get unhealthy dogs no matter what the COI is.


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Coi*

I totally agree,in fact I think 12 generations is better...but it is known that breeders see no harm in line breeding to perfect the breed, it is tacitly acknowledged by the AKC...with the caveat that "experienced breeders" only should do that..which considering my poor dogs pain and short life give lie to.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

peppersb said:


> For a COI to have any meaning at all, I think it needs be based on 10 full generations of dogs--dogs that are actually identified. In the case of your dog, there are lots and lots of "unknowns." If you look at the five generation pedigree, you can see that there are 2 unknowns in generation 5. Unfortunately a 10 generation pedigree would not even come close to fitting on your screen. But if you want to take the time, you can click on each and every dog in generation 5, and see the 5 generations behind them. That's when you really start to see a lot of unknowns. The unknowns can give an artificially low COI.
> 
> I should note that I agree with you that COI (even a COI based on known ancestors) is only one of many things to take into account. While low COIs are generally associated with better health, it is certainly possible to have unhealthy dogs that have low COIs. And when you breed unhealthy dogs to each other, you are likely to get unhealthy dogs no matter what the COI is.


HA! Good point! Though I still want anyone looking through pedigrees to be weary of the dogs in her pedigree.


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## Grey ember (Feb 4, 2013)

*Total agreement!*

Again...we totally agree!


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

CT Girl said:


> I am trying to find my dog SARATOGA'S SWIZZLE STICK but nothing came up. I looked up his sire CH SARATOGA'S STERLING SILVER and it says the COI is zero. His dam did not come up CH SARATOGA'S SILVER SYNCHRONICITY. Why don't they come up. I know he is registered, I have his pedigree from the AKC. Can you have a COI of zero?


A COI of zero is possible over 12 and even 15 generations if no common ancestors exist. One of Sushi's ancestor, Palmares Paprika, has a COI of zero because he is the result of breeding a mini to a standard so they had no common ancestors. This is how the red color in spoos was created and one of the main reason I got a red. The outcross with a mini diversified the gene pool even if it's the same breed. Maybe if you breed a spoo from a russian line to a spoo from an american line you could get a COI of zero over 12 or even 15 generations.

Mini, toy and standard usually don't have common ancestors since they separated in the 1700s and even before. In the Poodle Pedigree database you won't see the mini, toy or standard specified in the pedigree I think but you can see it in the Poodle Health registry database.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

CT girl- if you are on Poodle Pedigree then plenty of dogs aren't listed since it is voluntary information. If you have your dogs 3+ generation pedigree the start typing & get that info in there. MY OT. I had to put in her whole 4 generation pedigree. Only 2 dogs on her pedigree have any info. So I have a totally incomplete pedigree on my top half until somebody that has that info fills in the blanks. So you have to manually fill in your dam's pedigree with as much info you have.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Poodle Health Registry

It is free to register and you can bring up a vertical pedigree and most health testing and reported health issues will come up at each dog's name. This also gives you COI's and Wycliffe influence.


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