# small std dam + mini sire poodles ("kleins/moyens"): what are the issues, if any?



## robin (Dec 18, 2010)

Taem, I recommend you do a thread search for "klein" and "moyen" -- you will find lots of conversation about the pros and cons of breeding a standard to a mini trying to get that middle-sized moyen.

Can't help you too much on the health testing stuff, except to say that for me, personally, both parents having only fair hips would dissuade me from pups from that mating. I also wonder why the dam doesn't have results for PRA, and why the sire doesn't have SA test results.

best,
robin


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Most breeders would not consider breeding fair to fair. You try to breed "up". So, fair to good or excellent would be the norm. And fair to excellent would be the most desirable of the scenarios. But in a perfect world, unless a "fair" dog had a ton to offer to the breeding, it would be best to breed to something with a higher hip score.


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## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

I would think it would be wise to test for the health issue in the Mini and Standard varieties. I know someone years ago that acquired a puppy from a Standard to Mini breeding. She was hoping to avoid some of the health issues she had run into with her Standard Poodles and I believe she was convinced by the breeder that breeding the two varieties would produce healthier pups with less risk of serious health issues. Infortunately that did not turn out to be the case for this person. Her pup ended up with some serious Mini issues as well as serious Standard issues. 

The individuals that I have seen that result from mixing the two varieties have, in my opinion looked a little out of proportion and not what I would call attractive but this is just my own personal opinion.

As for hips, I would not breed a fair to a fair but I would breed a fair to good if there are lots of good hips in the pedigree and I would certainly breed fair to excellent under the same circumstances. Even excellent to excellent , good to good can produce fair or even dysplastic hips. I have also seen people breed fair to fair and get good or even excellent. Mind you, keep in mind that these results don't give you a good idea of the overall hip health in an entire litter and are only the results of individual dogs within a specific litter. 

I have also seen cases where one hip xray got a fair rating and a later xray on the same dog resulted in a good. There are many variables when xraying and reading hips. If the dog is not positioned properly or does no relax during the xray, his hips can look fair when in actual fact they may be good or even excellent.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Thanks for info guys. But dammit I don't know what to do. Any tips on judging for structural correctness of a klein at 10 weeks? I've only ever had toys lol, I don't know what to look for at all. Structure isn't a huge issue for me but I'd like to know as much as I can going in.

Anyway some pix of the pups at 5 weeks.


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

I'm not a fan of the crosses.. many of them are not square..or parts look like a standard, and parts look like a mini.


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## *tina* (Jan 3, 2010)

I would look for an over-sized mini or a small standard, rather than purchasing a variety cross.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

Sadface. I had to give up my dream of a klein. I wanted one very badly, but it'll be many years of watching experienced breeders work with the size before im happy with them.


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## Jeremy (Mar 9, 2010)

IMHO Standard/Miniature crosses are NOT the same as Moyens. True Moyens, as they can be found in Europe and other FCI-affiliated countries, are some inches bigger than Miniatures but very much akin to an oversized Min. Its important to note that most Moyen have miniature blood, and interbreeding the two strains is relatively simple. 

Mixed Standard-Min offspring will not only be susceptible to the health issues of both varieties, but also likely to be unbalanced. unsound, disproportionate...and my guess is that they will *not breed true*. That is, even breeding back to Standard or Min, you will get "throwbacks" to either one or other size, which could ofc cause very significant birthing problems for Min-sized bitches from Standard blood. Overall, not a good idea, and I see no good reason for why such crossing should be carried out just to produce "Moyens" as some kind of brand new designer dog to be sold for higher prices. 

(The only occassions where I would favour a cross between Min/Standard would be to open up limited gene pools; even so, importing or outcrossing to other colors would probably be better IMHO).

If you truly like that bigger size, go for an oversized Min puppy - shouldn't be hard to find at all.


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