# Judge my poodle! :)



## Salukie

Poodle Judging Ring 

Everybody, transform yourself into an amateur (or professional!) Poodle Judge and have a go at my poodle! 

Or, post pictures of your poo, and have your fellow forum friends compare it to the Poodle Standard to the best of their ability.

*Beware:* To the sensitive poo owner, only post some pics if you're not afraid of criticism. Some poodles have better confirmation than others, even though every single one of them is extremely beautiful in their own special way. _This is just for fun_. Don't get frazzled!


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So, without further ado, let's welcome contestant #1: Dana, the standard poodle! Dana just turned 8 months old and is a spayed female. 

Dana is owned by Salukie who, try as she might, could not get Dana to stack properly. This is the best that she could come up with. Try to disregard the fact that Dana is standing funny and that her tail is firmly clamped to her but! LOL! And please excuse the bracelets and the topknot, they need scissored! (Oh, and please excuse Dr. House in the background. LOL)







































Now, here are the points that jump out at me:

Head: Perfect! LOL! (Please, do correct me if I'm wrong!)

Neck: EWE NECK! That's not Dana's fur, that's her actual neck sticking out like that. 

Back: It looks sway in the first pics but that's just the way she stands on the grooming table. GAH! It's better in the after groom pics. Actually, when she's just walking around, it always looks slightly roached.

Chest: Good I think.

Front legs: Good, I also think.

Shoulder: I have no idea. I can't tell a straight front from a properly angled one. If someone has a good eye for this, please educate me! 

Back legs: Okay, something is going on here. I'll admit she's standing a little funny on the table but even on the floor, she never has her back feet any further back than that. I've tried stacking her properly but she seems really uncomfortable with her back feet slightly back of the point of her but. She always wants to: either bring her back feet forwards, or bring her front feet back. I'm thinking her stifle angle might be a bit too straight? Or is it in her hips? Her but also wags from side to side when she walks... ?

Feet: Perfect!

Tail: Set low and docked VERY short!!

Coat: Pretty good for a puppy coat!


So, what does everyone else think?


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## partial2poodles

I agree with everthing. I have 2 comments. I love the black nose and pigment. I see no angulation on the rear (the back of the back legs. 

This is an interesting thread that can last months. I hope to learn a lot.


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## CharismaticMillie

after the informative feet discussion today, I did notice that she has lovely feet.


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## fjm

Lol - feet were the first thing I looked at too!


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## PolarBear

Yes, I want to learn more too. I am searching for my camera now to take a picture of Polar Bear. Getting ready for work now. So it will be awhile before I can post a pic. As you can see I am very partical to white poodles too. Thank you for starting this thread.


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## PaddleAddict

What a neat idea. I would love to get comments on Jager. I'm having some pictures taken tomorrow, so I will post them next week.

Dana does have awesome feet! 

Can someone explain "ewe neck" to me?


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## Cameo

Here's what I think, but then it's very hard to say without getting hands on the dog and just looking at her, she's a very lovely young girl 

Yes, Ewe neck. Shoulder lay back in a little bit off, making her shoulders a bit to far forward and her front legs a bit to Straight up into her forechest. The back leg... with the pom's on the back legs, it's hard to say, but from the angle of her back feet (setting back on the pad), I'd say she's sickle hocked and when you said she wiggles back and forth when she walks, that's another good indicator. Also another reason why she won't stack correctly. Sickle hocked means that the heel bone (hock) bows (for lack of a better description) slightly in and makes the foot set more under the leg. It also makes the dogs gait less graceful (hard to describe), but it looks like the way a GSD moves in the rear and less flowing like a poodle. She looks a bit out of square and on the long side for her height.

As for tail set, well, she's a clamper, so you can't tell from the picture. A good rule of thumb for tail set is... the tail should be set half way from the hip bones to the point of the rump and should come off the body straight.


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## roxy25

PaddleAddict said:


> Can someone explain "ewe neck" to me?


Illustrated Breed Standard page 12


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## Keithsomething

I was dared too...and I'm to much of a MAN >.> to pass up a dare

what critiques would you guys give?


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## twenjen70

Lets see......this example may have an extreme case of rubber neck disease and possibly some sort of liver problem! I sure hope you are not planning on breeding her....however you could probably sell her to a doodle breeder who would be happy to use her in their breeding program!

LOL!


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## Keithsomething

twenjen70 said:


> Lets see......this example may have an extreme case of rubber neck disease and possibly some sort of liver problem! I sure hope you are not planning on breeding her....however you could probably sell her to a doodle breeder who would be happy to use her in their breeding program!
> 
> LOL!


:O
Note the huge orange flowers...wouldn't those look amazing on a puppy _-scours the earth for a male to compliment her-_


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## twenjen70

Oh yes! Most definitely! Be sure you find just the right boy now and add me to your waiting list! Haha!


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## fjm

Flowery poodles - the next big thing! And congratulations on accepting the dare!


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## CharismaticMillie

Okay I am joining! Judge Millie, please!  

(I tried to stack her, but didn't do a very impressive job. Her color looks weird in the first picture too. Not the best camera..)

*She has a curled tail and often carries it over her back - I know that is a major fault. But - surprisingly in these photos she is holding it pretty well.

I think her tail could be set a bit low as well?

Ready..GO!


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## 1Jurisdiva

Millie is adorable. I am not an expert by any means, the only critique I notice is that her tail is set a little low. I still think she is pretty much cute brown perfection


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## Birdie

I'm obviously no expert, so I can't really notice any faults on Millie other than the low tail set either lol. She looks really good to me!!  Nice and square, balanced. IDK, that's just my amateur opinion. 

gosh but I also want to point out how cute she looks stacked up on that table. I just want to squeeze her!  haha


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## partial2poodles

Millie is a pretty color. I do not like the haircut on her entire back half because it makes he body look so boxy. Her back is like a box because her back legs fall straight down. I think much of it is not her body conformation, but her plain jane hair cut. Her tail is low, but not terriblt and nothing that a big pom set on a nicely angulated rump wouldn't deceieve the eye.


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## CharismaticMillie

partial2poodles said:


> Millie is a pretty color. I do not like the haircut on her entire back half because it makes he body look so boxy. Her back is like a box because her back legs fall straight down. I think much of it is not her body conformation, but her plain jane hair cut. Her tail is low, but not terriblt and nothing that a big pom set on a nicely angulated rump wouldn't deceieve the eye.


P2P I would love hair cut suggestions for next time? We are working on growing out the tail pom!!! I can't wait until she has a big pom!!!!!

I wanted the groomer to leave more hair on her..but she took off a little more than I wanted.


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## flyingduster

yup, I agree, a bit more flair put into her grooming and it'd improve the boxy bum look! LOL!!!! She is very cute though!


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## passion4poodles

I think Millie would look ADORABLE in a puppy lion clip! I agree her tail set is low and the clip is not flattering on her, but her feet are nice and tight, she has good angles and nice head. She even has a chin! You would be surprised how many spoos out there that you see without much of a chin....GREAT job on her nails as well, they are a perfect length!


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## CharismaticMillie

What does the puppy lion trim look like?

I like the idea of having a trim that makes her look her best.  She is just a pet though, so nothing TOO crazy. Other than the puppy lion trim, what else could I do to her back end to de-boxify?

She just got groomed on Friday so I have about 4 more weeks before she gets groomed again, but it is good to get the ideas flowing!


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## flyingduster

the puppy lion trim is what Paris is growing into at the moment. Probably a bit much hair for you??? lol!!!

But I'd be taking her back end a lot shorter. Levelling off her topline more, building a bit of angulation in the pin bones to provide a 'shelf' for her tail, and taking it short in the back of the back legs to accentuate angulation there too. No need to change the type of trim she's in, just put a little more oomph into what she's already got really!


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## Feathersprings

Ok, not sure if these are good enough to tell anything but here goes.. this is Hooligan at almost 5 months. What do you think about coat as well as structure? If these arent good enough I will be taking more pictures soon...  Feel free to be honest... this is a learning tool for me. He is a bit narrow in the front right now.. I am assuming that might change with age... ??


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## passion4poodles

flyingduster said:


> the puppy lion trim is what Paris is growing into at the moment. Probably a bit much hair for you??? lol!!!
> 
> But I'd be taking her back end a lot shorter. Levelling off her topline more, building a bit of angulation in the pin bones to provide a 'shelf' for her tail, and taking it short in the back of the back legs to accentuate angulation there too. No need to change the type of trim she's in, just put a little more oomph into what she's already got really!


What about a shorter puppy lion clip, one that woud not work for the ring, but still look good on a pet?


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## partial2poodles

The biggest PLUS I see on Hooligan is his nice short back. Take the excess fur off his front chest and back of his thighs and he is spectactular. If he were mine, I would shave his ears and keep his tail like a carrot. He is very sporty, athletic and masculine. I really like his look. Don't worry about that narrow in chest right now at 5 months. I couldn't tell it with all that fur unless I felt for it. Chest hair that hangs down should never fall below the point of elbow. It makes a dog like your keep a very "square" tight outline. You want the legs to appear long, not short.


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## partial2poodles

I want to find a photo of one of mine and I want opinions too. This is a nice girl I bought at 18 months of age. She has profuse coat that I can do anything with. That last photo with the banded hair cut was not long after I bought her and when I got her she was a total shave down. That's why she has such a flat- top hair cut. He carving was done for a Pet Expo and she represented my favorite vet.


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## passion4poodles

Ok I decided to get in on this to, cause I want to know. How is Kiara to you guys. What would YOU look for improving? I cut and pasted Salukie's rundown to use for mine hope that is ok lol


Head: Very nice, although it has been mentioned her muzzle is a little short. 

Eyes:Nice shape good color

Neck: Seems short to me, with some possible ewe'ing going on but not much at all

Back: good topline 

Chest: nice and full good front

Front legs: nice

Shoulder: they are a little steep, but not straight up and down.

Back legs: In a proper stack I think she may be close to spot on.

Feet: You can not see them in these pics, but her feet are tight, and quit nice.

Tail: 11 o'clock setting not horrible, but 12 would be better

Coat: Excellent, coarse she is blue and clearing well

So, Correct me if I am looking with a bias mommy eye...I do want to breed her, so honesty is a good thing.


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## roxy25

its hard to critique when none of the dogs are stacked properly except for the OP's Dog


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## whitepoodles

OMG the last two posts and the photo of the huge necked wooden poodle just crack me up.... ROFLMAO.... having trears in my eyes, cant stop laughing.


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## whitepoodles

Sorry sorry guys didnt mean these last two posts. There is a post there with the long necked ceramic poodle Keith posted and a reply to it.. This is what cracked me up.. nothing else. Sorry if this mistake offended anyone it was definitely not meant for any real dog depicted here on th is thread. It was meant for the ceramic long necked poodle statue Keith posted.. Laughed at that so hard.


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## passion4poodles

roxy25 said:


> its hard to critique when none of the dogs are stacked properly except for the OP's Dog


I will try to get some of her stacked problem is, she does not self stack most of the time and my husband does not know how to stack, and I am usually the one taking the pics lol, I will try to get my husband to take some of me stacking her. Hopefully I remember how lol!



whitepoodles said:


> Sorry sorry guys didnt mean these last two posts. There is a post there with the long necked ceramic poodle Keith posted and a reply to it.. This is what cracked me up.. nothing else. Sorry if this mistake offended anyone it was definitely not meant for any real dog depicted here on th is thread. It was meant for the ceramic long necked poodle statue Keith posted.. Laughed at that so hard.


That post was too funny! I am sure everyone knew what you were talking about, thank you Keith for adding it, it made everyone laugh and we all need that in our day!!!


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## CharismaticMillie

I really had no idea how to stack Millie, ha ha.


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## whitepoodles

Passion4Poo
thanks , I was worried there for a while that some will take my comments as related to their dogs.
I will not comment on any dog. I used to be asked by other exhibitors what I think of this and that dog and when I gave my honest opinion some liked it while others didnt and I was later on blasted for giving my opinion. .. so I lived and learnt. But it is interesting to read everyone's comments about each dog being evaluated.


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## faerie

i think my poodle is the prettiest and sweetest and most wonderfullest of all.

she gives the bestest kisses too. 

which forgives the fact that she just destroyed a throw pillow of mine 

but i'm not showing or breeding or anything so i am not too worried about her body. i just want her lion tail to fill in! but that's my groomer's error, not a poodle fault.


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## Feathersprings

whitepoodles said:


> Passion4Poo
> thanks , I was worried there for a while that some will take my comments as related to their dogs.
> I will not comment on any dog. I used to be asked by other exhibitors what I think of this and that dog and when I gave my honest opinion some liked it while others didnt and I was later on blasted for giving my opinion. .. so I lived and learnt. But it is interesting to read everyone's comments about each dog being evaluated.


I know what you mean about not commenting lOL! I have got myself in trouble that way in the past.. thinking if someone asks they must want to know... wrong!!!  If I ask I DO want to know and am not offended by opinions. I have been my dogs own harshest critic.. in this case, considering my lack of experience with the breed, I dont have enough knowledge to critique my own dog except in very general ways.. and it is just curiosity on my part as Hoolie wont be shown or bred.


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## whitepoodles

Feathersprings said:


> I know what you mean about not commenting lOL! I have got myself in trouble that way in the past.. thinking if someone asks they must want to know... wrong!!!  If I ask I DO want to know and am not offended by opinions. I have been my dogs own harshest critic.. in this case, considering my lack of experience with the breed, I dont have enough knowledge to critique my own dog except in very general ways.. and it is just curiosity on my part as Hoolie wont be shown or bred.


A relief to hear. A sensitive topic among breeder/exhibitors.
When I bred my 1st litter the breeder , now a judge who graded the pups in 1995 asked "do you want me to tell you the truth or what you want to hear" LOL at that time I didnt know what she meant.. today I do. I said ofcourse the truth, I am paying you $50.00 to grade my pups based on their conformation/temperament".
I was asked in past by some breeders to give my opinon of their puppies and I did and was snubbed and later on spoken ill of for telling the truth ( using very calculated words), so I learnt to pipe it. 
With the exception of a very few friends who send me stacked puppies photos and I send to them as well, these are the only people I would open up and give my opinions to.


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## Ixion

I like this thread! ^.^ I'll have to ad Ella once we hopefully get her show trimmed so you can actually SEE her structure vs the little fur ball she currently is!

I also agree with the above poster......I have found even amoung friends that they see more in their dogs then they actually are and can not accept critiques. I have had people tell me my dogs faults even when I haven't asked but in return, although I am fully aware of their faults and their good points and will breed them accordingly to improve their short coming.....no dog is perfect is just the owner being honest with themselves....and lot of them prefer to put on blinders from what I've seen.


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## passion4poodles

whitepoodles said:


> Passion4Poo
> thanks , I was worried there for a while that some will take my comments as related to their dogs.
> I will not comment on any dog. I used to be asked by other exhibitors what I think of this and that dog and when I gave my honest opinion some liked it while others didnt and I was later on blasted for giving my opinion. .. so I lived and learnt. But it is interesting to read everyone's comments about each dog being evaluated.


I totally understand, the handler I used in NC told her breeder while I was there getting my bitch evaluated, "why in the world would you pay for a silver bitch of such poor quality when you breed dogs like this?" She was talking about a silver bitch the breeder had purchased from someone else. That breeder did not take it very well, cause she thought the silver bitch was awesome. To this day over a year later she is not finished and she has been with a handler the whole time (a diff one of course). Kiara will be evaluated with someone who can lay their hands on her when I can get it done, so it is not totally important to me to have it done on here lol.


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## whitepoodles

passion4poodles said:


> I totally understand, the handler I used in NC told her breeder while I was there getting my bitch evaluated, "why in the world would you pay for a silver bitch of such poor quality when you breed dogs like this?" She was talking about a silver bitch the breeder had purchased from someone else. That breeder did not take it very well, cause she thought the silver bitch was awesome. To this day over a year later she is not finished and she has been with a handler the whole time (a diff one of course). Kiara will be evaluated with someone who can lay their hands on her when I can get it done, so it is not totally important to me to have it done on here lol.


Unfortunatley SOME breeders will sell just about everything as a show puppy. This is very unethical especially when they are faced with a novice who depends on their knowledge, honesty and integrity.
I would rather sell a mediocre show prospect as a pet any day than sell it to an unsuspecting novice professing to them that the dog is a beautiful show puppy.
When I started in poodles I didnt want to start with mediocrity. I believed I deserve to start with a quality bitch that would not require me correcting faults in many future generations. In order to make sure that the breeder does not sell me just anything. I hired a professional handler and travelled with her to the breeder's home (U.S.) and the handler graded the puppy and said purchase her she is beautiful. I did and this is how I started my Ormar line. I was told by the handler I aquired a top quality show puppy bitch and couldnt thank the breeder enough for having respect not only for herself as a breeder but for a serious customer interested in starting with a quality bitch and not mere mediocrity.


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## passion4poodles

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Unfortunatley SOME breeders will sell just about everything as a show puppy. This is very unethical especially when they are faced with a novice who depends on their knowledge, honesty and integrity.
> I would rather sell a mediocre show prospect as a pet any day than sell it to an unsuspecting novice professing to them that the dog is a beautiful show puppy.
> When I started in poodles I didnt want to start with mediocrity. I believed I deserve to start with a quality bitch that would not require me correcting faults in many future generations. In order to make sure that the breeder does not sell me just anything. I hired a professional handler and travelled with her to the breeder's home (U.S.) and the handler graded the puppy and said purchase her she is beautiful. I did and this is how I started my Ormar line. I was told by the handler I aquired a top quality show puppy bitch and couldnt thank the breeder enough for having respect not only for herself as a breeder but for a serious customer interested in starting with a quality bitch and not mere mediocrity.


That breeder turned out to be a bust as is, LONG story, 2 show prospect bitches, thousands of dollars later, I learned NOT to trust what I was being fed...I tried, but she turned out to be what is called a "show puppy miller" She only wanted to produce CH offspring and she did not care about health or quality. She paid $20K to have one of her bitches finished, so she could have the title, even though the bitch should not have been in the ring. BOTH pups I got from that breeder were found to have LCP. We paid to have one surgically repaired and adopted her out and the other went back to the breeder, who accused ME of causing it by malnourishment of the pups. She is still showing the other bitch herself to this day...Like I said LONG story a


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## wishpoo

> Unfortunatley SOME breeders will sell just about everything as a show puppy. This is very unethical especially when they are faced with a novice who depends on their knowledge, honesty and integrity.
> I would rather sell a mediocre show prospect as a pet any day than sell it to an unsuspecting novice professing to them that the dog is a beautiful show puppy.


*I can only say - kudos to you *!!!!!!! 

I have seen couple of puppies sold as a "show" quality and even me as the novice could clearly see the major faults :smow: It would be impossible for a long time breeder "not to see them" : (( *sigh..


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## whitepoodles

Passion 4:
I am so sorry you had to go through this personally and I am not at all suprised following this experience that you are apprehensive and careful. At least it benefited you in learning who not to trust.
I just cant figure out these breeders , how can they live with themselves and where is thier conscience? Just behooves me.
Also to spend $20,000 to prove a point which should not be proven is silly in my opinioin.. I would be embarrased to show a poor representative of the breed and have people find out I spent $20,000 to prove a point no one cares about anyway but only that breeder, So not making sense .
No wonder you and wishpoo and I am sure others on this forum are leary of some in our breed. There was a great article in a canadian magazine how important mentoring is to newcomers. What are some of us teaching novices and new commers to the fancy if we send them home feeling cheated and disrespected ? These breeders should go back years and realize that they too were once a novice needing baby steps and help from successful breeders and not have to face ridicule and disrespect by being sold a show specimen that the breeder themselves will not be proud to keep and show themselves but feels that the novice should not start with the best quality dog but a more mediocre one.. WRONG !!! Anyone starting in any breed should start with the best they can buy, show and base their line on in future. Mediocrity breed and always will mediocrity.


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## passion4poodles

whitepoodles said:


> Passion 4:
> I am so sorry you had to go through this personally and I am not at all suprised following this experience that you are apprehensive and careful. At least it benefited you in learning who not to trust.
> I just cant figure out these breeders , how can they live with themselves and where is thier conscience? Just behooves me.
> Also to spend $20,000 to prove a point which should not be proven is silly in my opinioin.. I would be embarrased to show a poor representative of the breed and have people find out I spent $20,000 to prove a point no one cares about anyway but only that breeder, So not making sense .
> No wonder you and wishpoo and I am sure others on this forum are leary of some in our breed. There was a great article in a canadian magazine how important mentoring is to newcomers. What are some of us teaching novices and new commers to the fancy if we send them home feeling cheated and disrespected ? These breeders should go back years and realize that they too were once a novice needing baby steps and help from successful breeders and not have to face ridicule and disrespect by being sold a show specimen that the breeder themselves will not be proud to keep and show themselves but feels that the novice should not start with the best quality dog but a more mediocre one.. WRONG !!! Anyone starting in any breed should start with the best they can buy, show and base their line on in future. Mediocrity breed and always will mediocrity.


Thank you and AMEN! I pardon the working screwed myself not once but 3 times trying to start without a mentor...after the 1st 3 bombs, 2 were from breeders that did not show and 1 was from a retired show breeder. Altered and new homes found, I finally looked on AKC website, found the section on mentoring read up on that and found a breeder from their classifieds online. Sounds great right? WRONG...The one I found was the one I got the 2 toy bitches from that BRAGS about spending that much on finishing her bitch and threw me for a loop. Not only emotionally, I had alot emotionally invested in my girls. But financially as well as succeeded in basically getting me blackballed from getting another show prospect from other breeders in our area in every variety..So I took a year to study, learn, test and grow and now I am going to try to start a small quality breeding program of my own.


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## flyingduster

I'd like to see nice stacked pics too! 

I can't really see much past hooligans coat, he's so woolly it makes it LOOK like he has a short neck and low-set tail, but if you trimmed his back down it'd probably be fine!! lol

P2P it's really hard to see her structure in those pics! She looks like she's overweight, ewe-necked and sway backed with straight rear legs in one, and in another while her back legs still look straight, she looks much more level backed and with a much better tail set but her neck looks reeeally short in it!!!?? LOL! Stack her up and get a photo to get a proper judgement...


For Kiara, it's hard to tell by those pics but she appears to have very flat front feet (could be the sand!) her neck might be a bit short, but her back is a little swayed too which throws off her withers and neck too! Tail looks a bit low? I can't tell if it's the way she's standing though! Her front is a bit weak and her chest is a bit shallow too (doesn't reach to her elbows??) But how old is she? I think she's still young isn't she, so she is still filling out too! And a better stack will show more; definitely get hubby to take the photos so you can stack her properly; a good stack makes more of a difference than the photography skills!!


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## Feathersprings

I know what you mean about Hooligans tail set.. I thought it was low until I checked it and it looks good I think.. Just the big pouffy butt. Not as sure about the neck but I dot think it is too short....I am anxious to decide what to do with his coat to make him look his best.So what would I do to make his neck look longer? I need to go and look at more pictures!


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## passion4poodles

Thank you FD! I am going to work on getting stacked pics for you!


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## flyingduster

feathersprings, I agree it's just his poofy coat, I don't think his neck IS short, I just said it as an example that it LOOKS short in the photos, simply due to the hair! All we have to work with are the photos, so without putting hands on the dog we can ONLY judge by what they LOOK like! lol. I've posted in your other thread what I'd do to make his neck and tail set look better.... lol


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## Rockporters

It's so hard to tell from the photos, especially with the way their coats look. I probably shouldn't play this game, I'm far from an expert. I know exactly what I like in a poodle, but I'm still learning to verbalize it correctly so this is good practice for me. Please take my comments with a grain of salt .

Feathersprings, maybe a low tail set. I'm not seeing much rear angulation. It almost looks like his rear legs are a bit too long. Really hard to tell between coat and photos. He's young, too, so it will be interesting to see how he fills out. He's a cutie!

p2p, She looks a bit swaybacked, not much angulation, and maybe a hint of ewe neck going on. Again, too hard to really tell from the photos. I love her cut , she's really a doll!

p4p, She's a bit swaybacked. Her front and rear appear to be off because of her back. She is a bit flat in the front, and I'd like to see a little more rear angulation maybe. Again, really hard to tell from these photos. She's not self stacking well enough to really tell. She's clearing nicely, love her color!


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## Rockporters

Feathersprings said:


> I know what you mean about Hooligans tail set.. I thought it was low until I checked it and it looks good I think.. Just the big pouffy butt. Not as sure about the neck but I dot think it is too short....I am anxious to decide what to do with his coat to make him look his best.So what would I do to make his neck look longer? I need to go and look at more pictures!


I know most tend to clip puppies close, but I love a puppy clip. Granted I kept Jasper in it for show, but it's easy upkeep and they look so flashy and beautiful. Enjoy the soft, easy puppy hair while it lasts .


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## Feathersprings

I dont think Hoolie will ever be kept short... my dog background is with Afghan Hounds, Bearded Collies and Pekingese... lots of hair . This will be different because of the trimming but I love lots of hair!!  

So what can i expect from coat changes at what ages??? Right now his coat is sort of soft with a sort of "springy" feel to it especially in certain places. 

sherry


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## whitepoodles

Rockporters:
I saw photos of your boy in his puppy trim. Absolutely lovely dog.
You will do very well with him.. He looks beautiful , and also has a showy personality from what I saw in the photos.
Have fun with him and right.. puppy coat is so nice to wash, fluff up and the result is absolutely spectacular. Having said this, I am behind grooming my boy... LOL


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## roxy25

whitepoodles said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Unfortunatley SOME breeders will sell just about everything as a show puppy. This is very unethical especially when they are faced with a novice who depends on their knowledge, honesty and integrity.
> I would rather sell a mediocre show prospect as a pet any day than sell it to an unsuspecting novice professing to them that the dog is a beautiful show puppy.


Boy O Boy I wish I could post this puppy pictures I received via email on here lol This breeder sent me pictures claiming her puppy was show quality even tho she is the 3 pick or last pick of the females... The dog is clearly a pet and the price she was asking for it was ridiculous :fish:


----------



## whitepoodles

roxy25;105269 said:


> Boy O Boy I wish I could post this puppy pictures I received via email on here lol This breeder sent me pictures claiming her puppy was show quality even tho she is the 3 pick or last pick of the females... The dog is clearly a pet and the price she was asking for it was ridiculous :fish:


This is SO disconcerting. I have heard many stories like yours. I dont know how they can do this..
The fact they disrespect a new commer /novice by telling them they are getting what they label a "show quality" when they are fully aware it is not is downright unethical and an underhanded modus operandi on thier part.
The message such a breeder sends is.. you are not worthy enough for me to sell you a good one . Or maybe they do not have a "good one" and are merely and unethically counting on your naiivite and lack of breed knowledge to make a BIG profit of your lack of breed knowledge. Sad....


----------



## Feathersprings

whitepoodles said:


> roxy25;105269 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Boy O Boy I wish I could post this puppy pictures I received via email on here lol This breeder sent me pictures claiming her puppy was show quality even tho she is the 3 pick or last pick of the females... The dog is clearly a pet and the price she was asking for it was ridiculous :fish:
> 
> 
> 
> This is SO disconcerting. I have heard many stories like yours. I dont know how they can do this..
> The fact they disrespect a new commer /novice by telling them they are getting what they label a "show quality" when they are fully aware it is not is downright unethical and an underhanded modus operandi on thier part.
> The message such a breeder sends is.. you are not worthy enough for me to sell you a good one . Or maybe they do not have a "good one" and are merely and unethically counting on your naiivite and lack of breed knowledge to make a BIG profit of your lack of breed knowledge. Sad....
Click to expand...

Back in my early times in the Pekingese breed I was told I would have to pay my dues to get a decent dog... not like I hadnt been "Paying my dues" in the show ring for years already! I almost didnt get a Peke because of this but found a breeder that sold me a reasonable adult dog to start with.. I thought it was carzy... most of the time I was so happy to find a serious show person to place my puppies with!!! I think with the little ones the breeders just kept most of the good ones.. they didnt take up much space LOL!


----------



## whitepoodles

One more thing, what I would do with such a breeder is tell her/him that I want to hire a professional handler or a knowledgeable breeder exhibitor to look at the photos and evaluate the pup from photos, following which I would ask the if it would be ok for you to send a professional handler fully paid for to the breeder's home to have their hands on the puppy and evaluate them in the flesh.
I am willing to bet that this breeder will retract her statement about selling you a "SHOW PROSPECT" very fast.. Had I been in their shoes I would in a minute... It is worth a try and you are withing your moral and legal rights to hire a handler to evaluate a show prospect that COSTS SO MUCH MONEY before aquiring the puppy.
I hired a professional handler when I purchased my foundation bitch, that is because I was burnt with two other dogs before purchasing my foundation girl. It helped... I based my line on this girl and never looked back.


----------



## Feralpudel

Feathersprings said:


> So what can i expect from coat changes at what ages???
> sherry


Hehehe. Everybody loves to tell coat change war stories. As I recall, Dexter started coat change at ~10-11 months. It started around his shoulders and neck--I was terrified of losing his neck hair because there is no faking that. His shoulders, neck, chest, and underarms were always the worst. He was cut into pattern after his last puppy show, but that didn't help me much, because the trouble spots were up front. 

I was still struggling to stay on top of his coat when he finished at 15 months. I cut him down about 15 minutes after I got the AKC certificate, LOL. I admit it...I am a grooming wimp! 

I had never kept a dog long through coat change before, so don't know if he was worse or better than most. His coat is on the soft side for a black, but dense and fast growing. The softness is incorrect, but I think it helped prevent breakage, and made it easier to remove little mats without wrecking it. 

You will know when it hits. He will go from never matting to matting before your very eyes!


----------



## whitepoodles

[most of the time I was so happy to find a serious show person to place my puppies with!!! I think with the little ones the breeders just kept most of the good ones.. they didnt take up much space LOL![/QUOTE]


Granted most breeders keep the best for themselves.. and I am not known to sell show puppies, VERY VERY rarely and to someone I fully trust and know they will commit to the dog until the end of their natural life no expense spared.
13 years ago I sold a novice from Europe my pick of litter girl and I kept the
2nd pick. I never looked back.. I was happy they were proud of what they showed in Europe out of my line.. afterall they presented my kennel prefix so why should I not have sold them something that they would be proud of. I kept 2nd pick and she was equally nice not as nice as the 1st pick, but I figured they need as owner handlers a better dog to show than I do, since I use handlers. and I was very happy to do this for them. I showed them respect and knew that they will appreciate having a quality female to show and start her line with. We all start somewhere and if established breeders have respect for themselves they will ONLY sell good show prospects to novices, because the latter depend on the established breeders' ethics and advice. What is the message a novice gets when they are treated like a low class citizen by a top breeder, offering them a quality they know they themselves would not keep/show/breed. This is a topic that has been chewed and spat many a times in the show world.


----------



## Feathersprings

Feralpudel said:


> Hehehe. Everybody loves to tell coat change war stories. As I recall, Dexter started coat change at ~10-11 months. It started around his shoulders and neck--I was terrified of losing his neck hair because there is no faking that. His shoulders, neck, chest, and underarms were always the worst. He was cut into pattern after his last puppy show, but that didn't help me much, because the trouble spots were up front.
> 
> I was still struggling to stay on top of his coat when he finished at 15 months. I cut him down about 15 minutes after I got the AKC certificate, LOL. I admit it...I am a grooming wimp!
> 
> I had never kept a dog long through coat change before, so don't know if he was worse or better than most. His coat is on the soft side for a black, but dense and fast growing. The softness is incorrect, but I think it helped prevent breakage, and made it easier to remove little mats without wrecking it.
> 
> You will know when it hits. He will go from never matting to matting before your very eyes!


Oh gees, Im looking forward to this lOL! Thank goodness i have lots of time for grooming! At least I am not worried about a show coat... that could be a nightmare  So that is why people are saying " enjoy his puppy coat" LOL!


----------



## Feathersprings

whitepoodles said:


> [
> Granted most breeders keep the best for themselves.. and I am not known to sell show puppies, VERY VERY rarely and to someone I fully trust and know they will commit to the dog until the end of their natural life no expense spared.
> 13 years ago I sold a novice from Europe my pick of litter girl and I kept the
> 2nd pick. I never looked back.. I was happy they were proud of what they showed in Europe out of my line.. afterall they presented my kennel prefix so why should I not have sold them something that they would be proud of. I kept 2nd pick and she was equally nice not as nice as the 1st pick, but I figured they need as owner handlers a better dog to show than I do, since I use handlers. and I was very happy to do this for them. I showed them respect and knew that they will appreciate having a quality female to show and start her line with. We all start somewhere and if established breeders have respect for themselves they will ONLY sell good show prospects to novices, because the latter depend on the established breeders' ethics and advice. What is the message a novice gets when they are treated like a low class citizen by a top breeder, offering them a quality they know they themselves would not keep/show/breed. This is a topic that has been chewed and spat many a times in the show world.




I would for the most part keep the best also and that is to be expected but there were times when that wasnt possible or when i was hoping to keep a bitch and the best was a dog.. I would have never sold a show prospect to someone that I wouldnt have shown myself. I did have a few people that wanted to dbble in showing that I sold a nice dog but not the best and they were aware of what they were getting.

How exciting for you to watch this novice with your wonderful puppy do so well!


----------



## roxy25

whitepoodles said:


> One more thing, what I would do with such a breeder is tell her/him that I want to hire a professional handler or a knowledgeable breeder exhibitor to look at the photos and evaluate the pup from photos, following which I would ask the if it would be ok for you to send a professional handler fully paid for to the breeder's home to have their hands on the puppy and evaluate them in the flesh.
> I am willing to bet that this breeder will retract her statement about selling you a "SHOW PROSPECT" very fast.. Had I been in their shoes I would in a minute... It is worth a try and you are withing your moral and legal rights to hire a handler to evaluate a show prospect that COSTS SO MUCH MONEY before aquiring the puppy.
> I hired a professional handler when I purchased my foundation bitch, that is because I was burnt with two other dogs before purchasing my foundation girl. It helped... I based my line on this girl and never looked back.


That is an awesome Idea ! I can already tell its not show quality I also fw the puppy to several of my friends and we all agree its not a show dog. I will be more than happy to show you via private email. I mean I know red poodles are on another level but this puppy I would not be able to do much with it.


----------



## whitepoodles

[ I did have a few people that wanted to dbble in showing that I sold a nice dog but not the best and they were aware of what they were getting.

Feathersprings: I totally agree with you. As breeders we must keep the best for ourselves is. At least you are honest with your show clients and the type of breeder who evaluates their show prospect in an honest manner. I agree with you at least you are honest and tell your clients of what type of dog and the quality they are getting. I was speaking about the breeders who are so downright disrespectful to novices that they will sell them just about everything they have , claiming it is a show quality and counting on the novice's lack of breed knowledge. 

Roxy: I can imagine even without looking at photos. I am sure that if you say it is not , than it isnt. I am glad you did not go ahead and purchase the puppy. It is SOOOO difficult to produce a really great looking red. As I said before the gene pool is so narrow that it is very hard to always breed for quality. This is the main reason I would not go into color breeding. It is hard enough to do whites and blacks, let alone reds and other colors. I do really respect the reputable breeders that are so into the reds, apricots etc.. really difficult I give them credit.


----------



## whitepoodles

Ok, please grade my dog....


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ha,ha,ha,ha!!! There is definately something wrong with his eyes..lol!!


----------



## Olie

whitepoodles said:


> Ok, please grade my dog....


LOL!! Spoiled? 

BEAUTIFUL!!!

This is a neat thread. I am suprised more of our senior people that normally "critique" have not joined in. I am a total amature - but loving all these pretty poodles.


----------



## apoodleaday

[QUOTE Ok, please grade my dog....[/QUOTE]

Ummmm correct me if I'm wrong, but I think big round blue bug eyes are a disqualfying fault  hehehehe

Ok, I posted this in a separate thread but I'll try it here. Feel free to give me any feed back you have on Lacey. In my eyes she's perfect  but in reality, I think she is a bit long in body. Narrow and straight in the front. Her eyes a little on the round side. What do you think?

This is a good thread, informative and fun!


----------



## passion4poodles

whitepoodles said:


> Ok, please grade my dog....





ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ha,ha,ha,ha!!! There is definately something wrong with his eyes..lol!!


:scared: I am afraid I have to agree with Cherie! LOL! I think there is something going on there! :rofl:


----------



## passion4poodles

Rockporters said:


> p4p, She's a bit swaybacked. Her front and rear appear to be off because of her back. She is a bit flat in the front, and I'd like to see a little more rear angulation maybe. Again, really hard to tell from these photos. She's not self stacking well enough to really tell. She's clearing nicely, love her color!


Thank you for your opinion, these only give me ideas on what I need to look for to improve in the future I am not taking anything personally if I was that soft skinned I would not have posted pics.. I am going to try to get some pics of her stacked properly to look at though. I would like to see the pics and study them as well, it is easier to stare at a photo then try to stare at the dogs in person since she rarely leaves my side it is hard for me to get her to hold still long enough to take a real good objective look at her you know. The swayback thing, is it something that is a MAJOR fault? If there are any major faults that make it so I should NOT breed her, I would like to knwo before I spend anymore money on testing...I am going to try to have her evaluated hands on soon so any opinions, I will take constructively.



roxy25 said:


> Boy O Boy I wish I could post this puppy pictures I received via email on here lol This breeder sent me pictures claiming her puppy was show quality even tho she is the 3 pick or last pick of the females... The dog is clearly a pet and the price she was asking for it was ridiculous :fish:


I have been there Roxy and I fell for it sadly enough, not knowing and relying on others to help me without knowing enough to determine on my own even the faintest sign of a "bad" dog....



whitepoodles said:


> [most of the time I was so happy to find a serious show person to place my puppies with!!! I think with the little ones the breeders just kept most of the good ones.. they didnt take up much space LOL!





Granted most breeders keep the best for themselves.. and I am not known to sell show puppies, VERY VERY rarely and to someone I fully trust and know they will commit to the dog until the end of their natural life no expense spared.
13 years ago I sold a novice from Europe my pick of litter girl and I kept the
2nd pick. I never looked back.. I was happy they were proud of what they showed in Europe out of my line.. afterall they presented my kennel prefix so why should I not have sold them something that they would be proud of. I kept 2nd pick and she was equally nice not as nice as the 1st pick, but I figured they need as owner handlers a better dog to show than I do, since I use handlers. and I was very happy to do this for them. I showed them respect and knew that they will appreciate having a quality female to show and start her line with. We all start somewhere and if established breeders have respect for themselves they will ONLY sell good show prospects to novices, because the latter depend on the established breeders' ethics and advice. What is the message a novice gets when they are treated like a low class citizen by a top breeder, offering them a quality they know they themselves would not keep/show/breed. This is a topic that has been chewed and spat many a times in the show world.[/QUOTE]

WHY couldn't I have found a a breeder like you years ago! LOL! I agree, as a "novice" and I put in quotes since I am still learning, we really are not taken as seriously in the show world by alot of breeders.


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## SnorPuddel

whitepoodles said:


> Ok, please grade my dog....


OMD, is he trying to turn blue ???? Cole certainly has a sense of humor..that looks like an awesome setup and it looks like it is camper, is that Jenn's ?

Ora, I have said it before, and I will never stop saying it...I am so fortunate to have you as mt breeder and friend. You care so for the puppies you bring to this world.. I know that we will still be in contact 10 years and more down the road. Baldr is such a fabulous poodle ambassador, when he was a pup, EVERYONE from regular people to trainers and other dog people were amazed at his temperament and how calm a puppy he was. You definitely gave me the best of the best


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## whitepoodles

LOLOL , that was the Beast...

This is the BEAUTY.... 

I put these two photos of Cole and call it Beauty and the Beast.

Great news for us tonight.. We had the UltraSound done, and our Lola is pregnant with 8 puppies, in whelp to Cole. Whelping date around August 24
So releaved when I saw the images of 8 locules on the screen reggers:reggers:


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## whitepoodles

This hiddeous but very funny photo of Cole was taken in the U .S. when he was still with his U.S. handler. She purchased a groom mobile and photo was taken after she finished grooming him in the groom mobile. She put the blue bands and goggles on him.. sent me this photo and cracked me up. ..

Passion4: there are those kind of breeders out there, you just have to be lucky and be at the right place at the right time. It also depends on how you approach a breeder what you tell them, how you tell it to them and what you tell them your goals are. You have to study the breed first and foremost, then go to as many shows as you can if possible to PCA (National Specialty), talk to breeders there who are aproachable and nice. Do not bother with those who feel that they are god's gift to poodle dome.. You can see them from far.. trust me...and have PATIENCE and wait.. do NOT buy the first that comes along. study as much as you can, buy books, educate yourself about structure and lines and talk to as many people as you can.. When you feel ready then contact a breeder you followed and talk to them. I have no 
doubt that if you do your homework this time really seriously they will take your inquiry seriously as well.. Try this aproach and see how you will be received by breeders in future.

Snorrpoo: It is I who should be thanking you for taking such wonderful care of your puppy. I not only consider you a client but also a friend.... So get your butt up here to Montreal with your doggies and visit...
Oh wanted to mention that I would like to participate in the SA (Sebaceous Adenities) project. Please let me know how to go about it. Thanx. 

P.S. always loved BLUE eyes...


----------



## jak

Oh Cole is so stunning in that photo  Love his topknot 

So cool! 8 Puppies!!! Are they all spoken for ?


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## apoodleaday

whitepoodles said:


> LOLOL , that was the Beast...
> 
> This is the BEAUTY....
> 
> I put these two photos of Cole and call it Beauty and the Beast.
> 
> Great news for us tonight.. We had the UltraSound done, and our Lola is pregnant with 8 puppies, in whelp to Cole. Whelping date around August 24
> So releaved when I saw the images of 8 locules on the screen reggers:reggers:


Wow wow and oh boy did I say wow. Beautiful as ever! Love his beautiful black nose!
Congrats on 8 pups! They are due on my birthday


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## whitepoodles

Thanks for nice comments re: Cole. Cant get over how long his ears were and now.. OMG, I shaved them down completely and left only a few tassles. He sure was glad all that coat came off and he again can run in the forest and mess his coat....

Lola and Cole's puppies are all spoken for.


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## Birdie

Congratulations on the puppies!! Cole sure is gorgeous!  

Hmm, I wonder what you guys have to say about Desmond...  

Things I know that are not so good on him: 
-He has round, light eyes
-poor pigmentation (pink skin, brown nose, nails, eye rims, and lips) but I like that about him, I think it's cute haha
-He's long in the body (by about 1 inch or so)
-Poor coat!! It's hard to see in the pics but his coat has gotten horrible. Little dark brown wiry hairs poking out EVERYWHERE. Yuck. He used to have an awesome (although wooly) coat, now it's all mucked up by those ugly wiry hairs all over his back. 
-His front fleet have gotten flat... 

But he actually has a straight topline (when he's not being stacked by a moron  ) and has good back legs. I've heard he has a good tail set, though since it's so short it's hard to tell sometimes. His coat is thick and awesome, but he does have the nasty weird hairs. And I think he has a pretty great face, but I'm also his mom LOL
I'm also waiting for his chest hair to grow out so he won't look so flat up front.


----------



## whitepoodles

Ok, must reply to birdie although I said I wont comment on any dog posted here.

You are NOT a moron stacking him :)... Matter of fact you are stacking him properly . The way you hold his tail and his and front parts is the way it is usually done.
He does not have bad conformation at all. He seems balanced and if you look at him as a package and not piece meal you will find that he is quite pleasing to the eye. He is pet quality but a nice pet quality.


----------



## Rockporters

Thanks for being good sports about the critiques. If I can dish it out, I should be able to take it so....

Here's my cute little goob after being groomed today. He's calming down nicely so next month he'll go back into the ring. I asked Julie to stack him for me, but he was way too excited to see me so was pulling back/away. You can see the must get to mommy look in the second photo ;-). Sorry for the quality. Taken with my iPhone and cropped on iPad, not exactly the photo setup of champions lol. 

It's hard with these shots since he's pulling back, but feel free to critique. I won't be offended or take it personally. His tail drives me crazy. It's actually straight but looks curved due to how his hair parts/lays. As his coat changes it should be fine--but right now it makes me want to run for the Aquanet LOL.



















And in the car...


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## passion4poodles

whitepoodles said:


> LOLOL , that was the Beast...
> 
> This is the BEAUTY....
> 
> I put these two photos of Cole and call it Beauty and the Beast.
> 
> Great news for us tonight.. We had the UltraSound done, and our Lola is pregnant with 8 puppies, in whelp to Cole. Whelping date around August 24
> So releaved when I saw the images of 8 locules on the screen reggers:reggers:


CONGRATS!!!!! Cole is beautiful in any picture lol!


----------



## Birdie

WOW Rockporters, that is one stunning dog!!  Dang, he for real looks absolutely amazing to me. Love his groom, love his coat, love his face, love his booty and ahhh he's just awesome looking!

Whitepoodles: thank you!!  It's good to hear that from someone who actually knows these things  I definitely think Desmond is a handsome boy, and is overall pretty great to look at, especially for his background. But I do nitpick at things and like to know if he has any glaring problems that I am missing lol.


----------



## passion4poodles

You did a great job with that eval Ora! Birdie, he is nice and Ora correct me if I am wrong, but the pigment would be the nice pet quality vs ring quality right? Birdie you said hes feet have flattened, I dont see it, have you seen a splay footed poodle? Look at it online you will see he has good feet, maybe not as tight as they could be but not flat. He is beautiful!

Rockporters: ummmm take what all the compliments that are coming your way! He is STUNNING! I love the puppy trim! Someday, I swear I will produce a really good pup!


----------



## Rockporters

Cole is such a handsome hottie! Especially with the shades . Congratulations on the pups, I hope all goes smoothly with the pregnancy.


----------



## whitepoodles

Thanks guys for the nice wishes.

RE: Pigment: I would not worry, he is a pet and anyway ALOT of show dogs have bad pigment, pink skin and winter nose.. There are some handler who paint the dog's nose black (yes there is actually stuff to paint your dog's nose before entering the ring with him/her) )
Also alot of handlers put baby oil on the bare parts and face of a white dog and send it out to bake in the sun for an hour.. this darkens the skin. Dogs that are not closely shaved wtih a #30 or # 40 blade dont get a chance to darken their pigment. Some dogs come by it naturally very dark skinned, like silvery dark gray tone. Some are SO (naturally) dark that it is not appealing at all. There has to be a medium here not from one extreme to another. 

Rockporters: your boy is TRULLY BEAUTIFUL !!!!! I really like his short back up on leg silhouette.. He will do VERY nicely for you in future. I can only imagine how beautiful he would look in open trim (continental trim)

Passion4 poo: One day you WILL breed your beautiful litter, I have a feeling you will.

Birdie: Your dog's feet at not splayed at all.. look at them in the photo you posted. They are well arched and tight...

I am now going to assemble my new whelping box, I purchased corrugated plastic (white) very light and will assembly a 50 X 60 inch box.. Lola will be happy in her new one..


----------



## Feralpudel

Rockporters said:


> Here's my cute little goob after being groomed today. He's calming down nicely so next month he'll go back into the ring. I asked Julie to stack him for me, but he was way too excited to see me so was pulling back/away. You can see the must get to mommy look in the second photo ;-).


He is gorgeous...love the devil horns! Now you know you'll have to be waaay out of sight/smell/sound when he is in the ring with a handler. Whisper in his ear that he can see his mommy when he has a purple ribbon to show her, LOL.


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## whitepoodles

Some of my dogs are also momma boys. So my handler tells me... scram and stay away from the set up and ring side.. I have to hide .
With Cole he was not allowed to see me before entering the ring or he will turn his head and look for me everytime while shown. I stayed away from the shows most of the time he was campaigned. I hope that with Onyx I wont have to do this. I really enjoy seeing the dogs show and I would like to be able to sit at ring side and watch without one of mine running toward me to say hi GRRRRR


----------



## Birdie

Hmm, I guess they do look fine in that pic.. lol oops. I know that there have been lots of times I have looked at his feet and they just look flat and splayed (though admittedly not as bad as many dogs, just not nice & tight like they used to be). However that may just be because he's standing on a certain surface (like hardwood floors, or the grooming/kitchen table, which is where I noticed it). Is that normal, for a dog to stand with flat feet on one surface and tight feet on another? 
Because if so- hooray!  I loved Desmond's little feet, then I would see them so flat and splayed while I was grooming him... ):


----------



## whitepoodles

Birdie:
Some pups will splay their feet when on the table being groomed if they are stressed. Some pups while going through teething will also tend to splay their feet.
When a dog is stressed on the table at times (even mine when initially introduced to grooming it is stressful for any dog) will tend to splay their feet.
So most dogs who do have correct feet will splay them as young puppies on the grooming table (from stress) and also when they are teething.
It is very important to shave poodle feet and also not allow their nails to get too long as this can also cause splayed foot.


----------



## Feralpudel

passion4poodles said:


> Thank you for your opinion, these only give me ideas on what I need to look for to improve in the future I am not taking anything personally if I was that soft skinned I would not have posted pics.. I am going to try to get some pics of her stacked properly to look at though. I would like to see the pics and study them as well, it is easier to stare at a photo then try to stare at the dogs in person since she rarely leaves my side it is hard for me to get her to hold still long enough to take a real good objective look at her you know. The swayback thing, is it something that is a MAJOR fault? If there are any major faults that make it so I should NOT breed her, I would like to knwo before I spend anymore money on testing...I am going to try to have her evaluated hands on soon so any opinions, I will take constructively.


P4P, what are your goals for breeding? I ask, because that should influence your thinking about which aspects are most important to breed toward/away from. Kiara's type looks more like what you see in working lines today than in show lines. I use those terms loosely, because there are breeders whose dogs do both (a good thing, in my mind!). A line that comes to mind is Jac Harbour's dogs (Tudorose). She finishes some of her dogs in conformation, but her dogs are best known for their performance/working ability. If you look at her website, you can see that many of her dogs have more substance than you would see in a lot of show lines. 

I am interested in the breeders' thoughts on the importance of a level topline. I like it because it looks nice, but how important is it structurally?


----------



## whitepoodles

I am interested in the breeders' thoughts on the importance of a level topline. I like it because it looks nice, but how important is it structurally?[/QUOTE]

Poodles top lines are extremely important and I am not speaking from a show person's point of view.
Poodles were bred to retrieve, and hunt. They should be sporting a level top line in order to afford them stamina in a working field. 
Poodles with roached or sway backs not only deviate from the breed standard but also will be poor performers in the field as working dogs, retrievers as they will not have the stamina of others who sport a level and strong topline. A top line must be strong in any breed and neither sway nor roached. If your dog is not going to compete in performance events, hunting field work, than that is fine.. but if they are.. it will be difficult for them the energy required because their top line is dippy (sway back).
Also females who sport a sway back and are used for breeding will prove to later on have markedly swayed backs from the pressure caused by carrying a litter. First thing that I do check to see with my pups when I grade them if they have a strong and level top line.


----------



## Feralpudel

whitepoodles said:


> This is SO disconcerting. I have heard many stories like yours. I dont know how they can do this..
> The fact they disrespect a new commer /novice by telling them they are getting what they label a "show quality" when they are fully aware it is not is downright unethical and an underhanded modus operandi on thier part.


At the risk of sounding like a Pollyanna, I would like to point out that on a happier note, a good breeder produces good puppies, and there shouldn't be huge differences between "first pick" and fourth pick, etc. If her fourth pick is that bad, her first pick probably isn't that good either, LOL. I was thumbing through The Book of the Poodle yesterday and came across this wonderful quote from Bec Mason (Bel Tor):

"Now I expect that you are wondering when I am going to mention dogs which have done noteworthy winning, and this is where I am going to fail you. I've had them or bred them, true. But somehow this has never been the most important thing to me. I'm a breeder at heart, and what has mattered most all these years is trying to establish a line that bred true so that the difference in the best and the poorest puppies in a litter was minimal. Some have been fortunate in going to people who wanted the wins, so they were campaigned and made records. Naturally I am please that this has happened. But I am not going to say that they were the best because of it. They just had the advantage. I recall too many that never reached the ring that have been just as good in my book."


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## whitepoodles

Bec Mason was a genious and highly regarded pioneer in poodles. She was well respected and regarded. Her dogs figure prominently in most stand. poodle pedigrees of today just like the Eaton and Bibelot and Wycliffe.
I cant agree wtih Becky Mason more. She is so correct in what she states.
There are many breeder exhibitors who do not have the funds to pour into a great dog's show career as a result that fantastic specimen of the breed ends up in a pet home or just a finished Ch., where if the breeder had substantial funds to campaign him/her would of reached remarkable hights. That being said, there are some dogs out there who have amounted many BIS wins but are not necessarily better or more worthy than the dog who is equally great but has no one to back up a successful special's career.
A breeder however can and many do produce a litter with only 1 or 2 at most outstanding breed representatives and the rest are mere pet quality. NOTHING wrong with this. Ask many breeders and they will tell you that they are FORTUNATE to produce one to two top quality puppies in a single litter.
I too have produced an exeptional puppy in an otherwise litter that the rest of the puppies I would not of sold to show homes or shown myself. but I did show that boy and he proved to be spectacular. Nothing wrong in this type of litter either.
To consistently produce a litter which boasts more than 1-2-3 show quality puppies is a dream come true IF it ever happens to all breeders and I say all as I rarely see more than 2-3 dogs finished from litters.
Also it is quite rare that a good breeder will produce an exceptional puppy in a litter and the rest of them will look so bad that they will be qualified as runts due to lack of merit. There is bad and then there is bad.. it all depends on what one thinks "bad quality" is.. It is and will always be in the eye of the beholder.


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## flyingduster

Birdie said:


> -Poor coat!! It's hard to see in the pics but his coat has gotten horrible. Little dark brown wiry hairs poking out EVERYWHERE. Yuck. He used to have an awesome (although wooly) coat, now it's all mucked up by those ugly wiry hairs all over his back.


But, those wiry hairs are GOOOOD! He's cream, not white, so his guard hairs (the wiry ones) will be a mixture of white, cream and brown; same as Paris. They show up more when the coat is growing out, give him a trim and they'll be down plush with the softer woollier undercoat so won't spring up as much. But they are truely a GOOD thing, not a bad thing!!!!!! I wish Paris had them all over, but she only has them along her topline. Woolly isn't correct, crisp is. And it's a joy to scissor a proper crisp coat!!


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## apoodleaday

Rockporters, Jasper looks awesome!! Very handsome boy


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## Birdie

flyingduster said:


> But, those wiry hairs are GOOOOD! He's cream, not white, so his guard hairs (the wiry ones) will be a mixture of white, cream and brown; same as Paris. They show up more when the coat is growing out, give him a trim and they'll be down plush with the softer woollier undercoat so won't spring up as much. But they are truely a GOOD thing, not a bad thing!!!!!! I wish Paris had them all over, but she only has them along her topline. Woolly isn't correct, crisp is. And it's a joy to scissor a proper crisp coat!!


LOL really??? I always thought those were a sign of a bad coat! I figured it was supposed to be all one texture (though wiry is preferred), instead of just having random wiry hairs poking out. Kind of an all-or-nothing deal. I hate them xD They make his back all scritchy and I love his plush wooly coat lol. So having that kind of mixed looking coat is good for a cream?? Hm, well I've learned something today.  My bad!! Shows how much I know! haha that's why I'm here, is to learn these things


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## whitepoodles

The correct poodle coat feels like steel wool, thick dense and hard to get through with a comb... This is what an adult coat feels like following coat change.
A puppy coat is totally different texture and feel.. It is softer and much easier to glide through with a comb/brush also less dense.
Some poodles go through the most horrible coat change period while other who have a correct coat will not mat as badly as the ones sporting an incorrect coat texture.
Most poodle handler I know have had carpal tunnel surgery or need one. Very hard breed to groom if they are shown and in full adult show coat.


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## passion4poodles

Ok, so I dug through my archived pics and I found one or two of Kiara in stacked. There were more, but since my husband was taking the pics they are blurry lol, like I said, I am usually the one taking the pics LOL! I hope these are better for you.


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## Rockporters

p4p, Here's a link to the PCA Illustrated Poodle Breed Standard. Using that as your guide you'll have a good idea of what is right on your sweet girl and what isn't really up to standard. The new photos you posted will be good to use for comparison since she's cut so short.

I'm still learning to correctly verbalize what I see when looking at the dog. I'll let you decide whether you want me to practice on you or not .


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## passion4poodles

Rockporters said:


> p4p, Here's a link to the PCA Illustrated Poodle Breed Standard. Using that as your guide you'll have a good idea of what is right on your sweet girl and what isn't really up to standard. The new photos you posted will be good to use for comparison since she's cut so short.
> 
> I'm still learning to correctly verbalize what I see when looking at the dog. I'll let you decide whether you want me to practice on you or not .


If you would like take comments constructively not offensively.

I see 3 things in Kiara when comparing to the PCA book, thank you BTW

She has a good head, acceptable tail set good feet, she is not cow hocked or bow hocked so that is good

she is shallow in the chest, has no forequarters as she does have steeper shoulders then she should and ewe necked but not to an extreme case of it but enough to notice. She looks a little more ewe necked in the photos because her ears are hanging in the front and makes it appear to jet out more... 

She is good in the rear her angles are correct she is not straight sickled hocked or over angled.

Her ears are good and eyes are correct. 

Color is good and she is clearing nicely

Her front is a little narrow, but she does hold her feet correct so I think it is just a matter of needing to fill out more not sure

Her body is good it is heart shaped, even though you can not see a top pic it is.

Her bit is a great scissor bite

Her gait is good, I have noticed at a certain pace she walks like there is fence posts between her legs, but she is not bow legged, just puts her back feet out to far to the sides, but when she is at the right pace, she has a perfect gait....huh? Don't know....

From the side, she does over reach in her gait, but I am going to look at it again because I am not sure if it is something I may be mistaken about.

She is also shy, so there is a fault there. I think working with her on her public access training is really going to help there, because she loves people and kids and other animals. 

THIS was FUN! I am so glad you sent this link! I have more studying to do...thank you thank you thank you! 

Now that I have been able to compare SIDE by SIDE with my pics of her as well as know what I have seen in her movement, it makes it so much easier for me to really compare. 

SO, all in all, I can honestly take a step back look at Kiara and see where improvement needs to be made. I know what to look for in a stud to help improve on those flaws and take it from there. 

If I am wrong on any of this please correct me. I know I am taking her to Brad to have her evaled anyways, but it only helps me to learn.

So, how did I do???


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## passion4poodles

I wanted to ask all of you who might know...could Kiara being narrow in the chest be caused for her tummy trouble she had when she was a puppy? Or is something like that totally genetic? When I got her she had hookworm REALLY bad, it took 3 worming to get rid of it and she also had giardia and was on meds and acidopholis for 6 months or more to get her bowels right. She was underweight for a long time because of it. Could that have "stunted" her development? Just curious.


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## Rockporters

Thanks everyone! I do already stay out of sight when he's being shown by the handler. He may go off with the handler on the weekend we take the teenager to school. It will be interesting to see how he does with us completely m.i.a. Definitely a Momma's boy!


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## Winnow

Here is Charly butt naked

He has only gone to three shows here in Iceland and this is what the judges there had to say:

Good builded dog.. Strong Good shaped head. Correct ears. Very Good Top line + Good Angl. Very Good Coat. Good Moving. Excellent

Excellent type + balance. Masc. head.
Could have stronger lower jaw. Little round eyes, not the best expression. Good neck + topline.
Compact body, very good tail, very good ang. VG coat quality Very good movement

Very stylish, 22 m old ex breed type, beautiful condition, correct head, correct expression, well set ears, correct length of neck, proper shoulders. Typical coat texture, excellent head carriage.


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## cbrand

Interesting. I think there is a lot to like about Charly but I would actually fault him on his head. I think he looks like he lacks under-jaw and he even looks a bit down-faced. 

Other than that, I'd short him a bit and give him more fore-chest and a bit more neck.


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## Winnow

cbrand said:


> Interesting. I think there is a lot to like about Charly but I would actually fault him on his head. I think he looks like he lacks under-jaw and he even looks a bit down-faced.
> 
> Other than that, I'd short him a bit and give him more fore-chest and a bit more neck.


I agree with you on the head. his mother comes from a old German line and they have heads that are different than what I am used too.

And the rest too 

Excellent judge Cbrand


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## flyingduster

passion4poodles said:


> If you would like take comments constructively not offensively.
> 
> I see 3 things in Kiara when comparing to the PCA book, thank you BTW
> 
> She has a good head, acceptable tail set good feet, she is not cow hocked or bow hocked so that is good
> 
> she is shallow in the chest, has no forequarters as she does have steeper shoulders then she should and ewe necked but not to an extreme case of it but enough to notice. She looks a little more ewe necked in the photos because her ears are hanging in the front and makes it appear to jet out more...
> 
> She is good in the rear her angles are correct she is not straight sickled hocked or over angled.
> 
> Her ears are good and eyes are correct.
> 
> Color is good and she is clearing nicely
> 
> Her front is a little narrow, but she does hold her feet correct so I think it is just a matter of needing to fill out more not sure
> 
> Her body is good it is heart shaped, even though you can not see a top pic it is.
> 
> Her bit is a great scissor bite
> 
> Her gait is good, I have noticed at a certain pace she walks like there is fence posts between her legs, but she is not bow legged, just puts her back feet out to far to the sides, but when she is at the right pace, she has a perfect gait....huh? Don't know....
> 
> From the side, she does over reach in her gait, but I am going to look at it again because I am not sure if it is something I may be mistaken about.
> 
> She is also shy, so there is a fault there. I think working with her on her public access training is really going to help there, because she loves people and kids and other animals.
> 
> THIS was FUN! I am so glad you sent this link! I have more studying to do...thank you thank you thank you!
> 
> Now that I have been able to compare SIDE by SIDE with my pics of her as well as know what I have seen in her movement, it makes it so much easier for me to really compare.
> 
> SO, all in all, I can honestly take a step back look at Kiara and see where improvement needs to be made. I know what to look for in a stud to help improve on those flaws and take it from there.
> 
> If I am wrong on any of this please correct me. I know I am taking her to Brad to have her evaled anyways, but it only helps me to learn.
> 
> So, how did I do???


I think you did pretty good! It all takes practise, and I'm only JUST starting to develop an eye when looking at photos now, but I still cannot see it in real life properly yet! LOL! I steward at dog shows a fair bit, and take note of what the judge is putting up etc, and I try to look at the dogs as they are stacked etc but I rarely pick (in my head) the same one the judge goes for! LOL! Give me a photo and I can start picking it apart, but ugh, a real life dog? no way; they're all gorgeous 

About the only thing I'd add to your critique of Kiara is that I think her tail set is actually a tad low, though she holds it up well! Part of that is due to her sway back too that puts her butt so high! lol!!! She's also got a fairly short neck which is exaggerated by the ewe neck and straight front assembly. BUT she's still young and developing too!


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## Rockporters

p4p I think you did a great job! I'm glad you found the link helpful. I also was thinking the same things that FD added. FD I have a bit of trouble in person as well. Sometimes I'll really dislike a dog and sure enough.. it's the one the judge puts up.

Winnow, Charly is handsome! He has such a definite masculine look about him.


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## Chagall's mom

Okay, can you tell by looking Chagall is a miniature poodle? 

Please feel free to tell me what you care to about his build. I love the being he is, doesn't matter to me if he's too big, not angular enough, eastie/westie, whatever. But I would very much enjoy having trained eyes "trained" on him to learn more about where he fits in terms of the correct miniature poodle characteristics. 

I _think _if you click on these thumbnails they'll enlarge...haven't yet figured out how to upload my photos larger. Case of "the poodle is smarter than the woman," all the way around! And as is evident, I don't have a clue as to how to "stack" him and besides, knowing him he'd rather snack than stack anyway.


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## CharismaticMillie

I noticed that he has a nice shelf on his rear! (Better than my dog at least!) His front feet _might_ be a little eastie westie, but it's hard to tell from the photos.

Other than that...I am terrible at judging conformation! I am still learning too!

I LOVE his color and his face looks oh-so kissable!! He has a nice expression


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## neVar

ok it's a from ontop angle... but when ll you got for camera preson is 10 you take what you get. 

Bella age 5 months in this pic


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## Jessie's Mom

Keithsomething said:


> I was dared too...and I'm to much of a MAN >.> to pass up a dare
> 
> what critiques would you guys give?


first, i have to say, this gave me a good laugh, keith!! i like your humor!

second, i just found this thread and am enjoying reading it!! i hope to find the time to submit some pics of jessie. i'm always getting stopped everytime we go somewhere or just out for a walk, by people who want to tell me how beautiful she is. however, i know they are just common folk who are just taken by the look and prance of a standard b/c they aren't so common. i always wanted jessie critiqued (is that out you spell it? lol) so i would like to post some pics, but i need to find the time. i already know she is slightly hocked and she doesn't have the greatest coat. she is not well bred and i dind't know enough when i started looking for a standard. however, she is my heart dog and i hope i have years & years & years with her. but i really want to learn so i will put her on the line and brace myself. lol


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Okay I am joining! Judge Millie, please!
> 
> (I tried to stack her, but didn't do a very impressive job. Her color looks weird in the first picture too. Not the best camera..)
> 
> *She has a curled tail and often carries it over her back - I know that is a major fault. But - surprisingly in these photos she is holding it pretty well.
> 
> I think her tail could be set a bit low as well?
> 
> Ready..GO!


i think millie is beautiful. obviously, i'm not good @ this judging thing cause i really can't say a bad thing about any poodle. hmmmm, however, my neighbor has 2 and when i tried to help her fix i botched grooming job i noticed his feet were painfully splayed (right word ?) looking and i know that is a serious fault. anyway, that has nothing to do with millie. i think she's perfect


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## Jessie's Mom

passion4poodles said:


> I think Millie would look ADORABLE in a puppy lion clip! I agree her tail set is low and the clip is not flattering on her, but her feet are nice and tight, she has good angles and nice head. She even has a chin! You would be surprised how many spoos out there that you see without much of a chin....GREAT job on her nails as well, they are a perfect length!


how do you get the nails that short??? jessie's are so long and so is her quick which is why the nails are so long. whenever we attempt to cut them back, she bleeds terribly.


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## Feralpudel

Jessie's Mom said:


> how do you get the nails that short??? jessie's are so long and so is her quick which is why the nails are so long. whenever we attempt to cut them back, she bleeds terribly.


Dremel them back a little at a time. You can Dremel them every few days. The quick should gradually recede. I think it also helps to walk some on pavement. That keeps the rear nails nice and short.


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## flyingduster

yup, dremel them back every other day will get them back quickly; I took a photo log of making Paris' nails short on facebook, I'll post the link later on if you can't find it... lol


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## CharismaticMillie

Millie's groomer grinds (dremels) her nails! She does a wonderful job!

ETA: WOW I haven't looked at those pictures of Millie in a long time! It looks so weird to see her out of her CC! And her body has changed a LOT since that photo!


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