# good breeder vs. byb?



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Try this until someone has a better idea! 

http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=3238&highlight=breeder+check+list


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

To me someone who breeds dogs _without_ showing in some sort of event, owns multiple breeding dogs, "fosters" breeding stock and has multiple litters a year falls under the Backyard Breeder category.

If someone is truly interested in bettering in the breed they are doing some sort of showing and/or have offspring they have produced showing.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm of a similar opinion to Purple Poodle. However, in my opinion, for a breeder to be deemed a backyard breeder, they would NOT do any/much health testing. If they do all necessary health tests (not just hips and eyes), it becomes a matter of an okay breeder vs. excellent breeder.

If not conformation titles, I look for obedience titles, agility titles, field titles etc. If the breeder simply keeps dogs and does nothing to PROVE their poodles are more than just pets, I turn the other way. If the breeder does nothing with their poodles, I see their breedings simply as a way to make money. There are TOO MANY homeless dogs and puppies out there for people to be breeding unproven (in any way) dogs. If you cannot take the time to invest in training for agility, obedience, or field, then you should not have the time to invest in breeding.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

My opinion of a BYB is someone who has a lot of breeding going on, and mostly those breedings consist of two dogs thrown together specifically to make puppies. No consideration whatsoever to the health of the resulting pups, conformation is not a consideration, and most times even colour is not a driving factor. Just produce lots of puppies ro sell and make gobs of money. As a rule, there is no health testing of the dogs being bred, most of their backgrounds have no health testing (because most BYB`s buy from other BYB`s, because no self respecting, decent breeder would sell to someone like a BYB).

In my opinion...there are some breeders who are doing a great job of researching pedigrees, breeding healthy puppies, working to improve the quality of puppies they produce, producing pups with lovely conformation and terrifc temperaments, and they do not show their own dogs. It is more important to me, when looking for a dog to purchase or breed to, that the breeders I am talking to have done their health testing, that I can go on to the Poodle Health Registry and see health testing in their pedigree, that if colour breeding, when looking at the pedigrees, it is obvious they have a clue what they are doing and not just breeding this dog to that dog to produce the best colour, but are also making sure that everything else is working together to produce a pup of great colour who also has great conformation AND good health. I do not feel it is necessary to buy from a show breeder to get the whole package. And that isnt only because I do not show at this time. I have been surrounded by Standard Poodles for 47 years, and HAVE been very much a part of the show world in the past. I am not the only breeder out there like this. When you spend a long time in the breed, loving the breed, being mentored by someone,( in my case my Mother), you KNOW what a good Poodle looks like and you learn how to breed for the right results.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Locket said:


> I'm of a similar opinion to Purple Poodle. However, in my opinion, for a breeder to be deemed a backyard breeder, they would NOT do any/much health testing. If they do all necessary health tests (not just hips and eyes), it becomes a matter of an okay breeder vs. excellent breeder.


I totally agree with this. IMO, to be a true BYB, you just throw a couple of dogs together with no health testing. BYB pups tend to be the ones you see listed on sites like Kijiji (if they're not mill puppies being sold by a broker).


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I think it comes down to your personal values. I think showing in some venue is important. If a breeder doesn't show then how do they know their dogs meet the standard? After breeding a few generations w/o showing a breeder is likely to become kennel blind. I also like smaller scale breeders. Those, in addition to health testing and temperment are important to me. I would be reluctant to buy from a small scale breeder who didn't show or large scale breeder who did show.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

For me health testing, raising the puppies in the home, and not having HUGE amounts of a dogs are what I look for. (Meaning, they stay with the breeder inside as well so the breeder knows her adults). Showing is nice but not a deal breaker. I am not a show person - I'm a pet person. So it is more important for me to have a breeder that knows her dogs personalities (and again - does all the health testing with a good health guarantee behind the puppy). I'm very happy with Wrigley's breeder and would recommend her to anyone.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

gwtwmum2 said:


> For me health testing, raising the puppies in the home, and not having HUGE amounts of a dogs are what I look for. (Meaning, they stay with the breeder inside as well so the breeder knows her adults). Showing is nice but not a deal breaker. I am not a show person - I'm a pet person. So it is more important for me to have a breeder that knows her dogs personalities (and again - does all the health testing with a good health guarantee behind the puppy). I'm very happy with Wrigley's breeder and would recommend her to anyone.


I agree with this!!!! Health testing is a real biggie for me . If they cannot afford to test and feed a good nutritious diet , then I say pass. Ask what they feed  
As I have stated *many* times before just because they are a champion does not mean that they are breedable or even worthy of being bred ....
Temperment comes in to play as well. Ungroomed dogs on the site or REALLY old pictures.... Multiple colors and other breeds being bred are big flags and huge turn offs as well....To me that signafies a BYB ....


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I agree with this!!!! Health testing is a real biggie for me . If they cannot afford to test and feed a good nutritious diet , then I say pass. Ask what they feed
> As I have stated *many* times before just because they are a champion does not mean that they are breedable or even worthy of being bred ....
> Temperment comes in to play as well. Ungroomed dogs on the site or REALLY old pictures.... Multiple colors and other breeds being bred are big flags and huge turn offs as well....To me that signafies a BYB ....


I agree with the previous quote as well, but don't think with the BYB's it is a matter of not being able to afford health testing or good food. Most of them end up making a ton more money a year breeding puppies than most breeders who are doing everything right, because they are usually pumping puppies out like crazy, and do not go the extra mile with vet physicals, de-worming etc. Most don't care about breeding bitches back to back heats. And many of them have their own stud dogs, so it is all sheer profit, whereas a lot of us have to pay for a ton of stuff and the health testing, sometimes a stud fee, and end up making very little. Most of the BYB's charge a little less than average, some even charge more, but when you are saturating the market with countless puppies, who cares??? They will more than make up for it in quantity. So, I think it is more a matter of just not caring about the puppies they produce as much as the bottom line.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

In my experience it is a whole package Arreau . Taking good care of the dogs is important . Feeding them well is an issue. Health is based on Garbage in Garbage out..
If the BYB is all about money they will cut costs in the area of food , testing and the like.... But this is a wee bit off topic isnt it? 
The question was how to tell a BYB breeder from a good breeder .. This is one way ....


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I disagree that having other breeds signifies a BYB. A puppymill maybe, but there are also many responsible breeder w/ more than one breed. I think the number of litters and adults dogs is a much better way to tell the bad from the good. 

Many good and bad Poodle breeders raise more than one variety. Despite what the standard says, there are more differences in the varieties than just height. What's the difference in having 2 or 3 varieties and 2 different breeds? (IE Toy and Standard Poodles vs Maltese and Standard Poodles)


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I disagree that having other breeds signifies a BYB. A puppymill maybe, but there are also many responsible breeder w/ more than one breed. I think the number of litters and adults dogs is a much better way to tell the bad from the good.
> 
> Many good and bad Poodle breeders raise more than one variety. Despite what the standard says, there are more differences in the varieties than just height. What's the difference in having 2 or 3 varieties and 2 different breeds? (IE Toy and Standard Poodles vs Maltese and Standard Poodles)


Designer dogs. Maltipoo.......thats what would send up a red flag for me. The focus is then on cash. Not a breeder with my expectations thats for sure.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> In my experience it is a whole package Arreau . Taking good care of the dogs is important . Feeding them well is an issue. Health is based on Garbage in Garbage out..
> If the BYB is all about money they will cut costs in the area of food , testing and the like.... But this is a wee bit off topic isnt it?
> The question was how to tell a BYB breeder from a good breeder. This is one way ....


Nope. I don't think it is off topic at all. The whole package is exactly right. If people do not care for their dogs, they certainly aren't going to produce the ultimate in the health of the puppies they produce. If they feed their breeding dogs Old Roy, the puppies growing inside their mothers are certainly not going to be as healthy as they could be. I doubt most BYB's feed their pregnant bitches puppy food to aide in the development of the pups bones. This is all stuff that can help someone tell a good breeder from a bad breeder, and a BYB from a good breeder.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Olie said:


> Designer dogs. Maltipoo.......thats what would send up a red flag for me. The focus is then on cash. Not a breeder with my expectations thats for sure.


So if someone has two breeds that are commonly mixed by unscrupulous breeders, you rule them out? Obvioulsy someone breeding and selling mixbreeds is a red flag (it's a dealbreaker for me). I wouldn't assume just b/c someone has Malts and Poodles they are mixing them, especially if the Poodles are Standards. "Morkies" are a pretty popular "designer breed" yet there are several great breeders that breed both Maltese and Yorkies w/o mixing them. Again there are many people who are in it just for money w/o venturing into "designer dogs."


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> So if someone has two breeds that are commonly mixed by unscrupulous breeders, you rule them out? Obvioulsy someone breeding and selling mixbreeds is a red flag (it's a dealbreaker for me). I wouldn't assume just b/c someone has Malts and Poodles they are mixing them, especially if the Poodles are Standards. "Morkies" are a pretty popular "designer breed" yet there are several great breeders that breed both Maltese and Yorkies w/o mixing them. Again there are many people who are in it just for money w/o venturing into "designer dogs."


I don't think I would rule it out completely without looking into it more. Yet still a point of interest that I want to question. Afterall there would have been a reason for me to seak out the breeder. And I agree with your last sentence 100%. This is true - but it is certainly catching on pretty fasthwell:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I will tell you honestly, one of the biggest red flags for me is seeing a Poodle breeder who is selling most of the colours. Especially if they are breeding the colours together willy nilly showing they haven't a clue what they are doing!!!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I will tell you honestly, one of the biggest red flags for me is seeing a Poodle breeder who is selling most of the colours. Especially if they are breeding the colours together willy nilly showing they haven't a clue what they are doing!!!


Thats a BIG one IMO.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

This Lab site put a very good comparison of a Hobby Breeder versus a Backyard Breeder.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/comparison.html


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I think a reputable breeder needs to be active within the breed, This means showing , working , OB , Agility etc......

I think health testing is also important. 

I am on the fence with breeders who just health test and don't put titles on their dogs because I can easily take 35 bucks and get an awesome dog with no health testing out of the shelter. I can get titles on this pound puppy so I Think a breeder should be titling.

I got an awesome Amstaff from the shelter in 2007 so I hope to get a OB title or agility she is super smart and easy to train and I did not pay 1500 for her.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Roxy not sure what you are saying. You can put titles on a shelter dog you only payed 35.00 for true, and you think that titling your dogs makes you a better breeder over health testing? Just not sure what point you are trying to make. maybe I am reading this wrong


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> Roxy not sure what you are saying. You can put titles on a shelter dog you only payed 35.00 for true, and you think that titling your dogs makes you a better breeder over health testing? Just not sure what point you are trying to make. maybe I am reading this wrong


 I did not say skip health testing


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I don't think Roxy was saying titling is better OVER health testing, she was saying that ONLY health testing (and NOT titling) doesn't make a great breeder, in her (and my) opinion. They need to health test AND title their own dogs for me to consider them to be great... Now, in saying that I would still consider untitled but fully tested dogs well above and beyond ones that weren't!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

flyingduster said:


> I don't think Roxy was saying titling is better OVER health testing, she was saying that ONLY health testing (and NOT titling) doesn't make a great breeder, in her (and my) opinion. They need to health test AND title their own dogs for me to consider them to be great... Now, in saying that I would still consider untitled but fully tested dogs well above and beyond ones that weren't!


Thanks I am glad you understood what I meant


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

To me a good breeder puts health testing first, temperment, and conformation. Titles are important, but I would like to see the dogs living with their people and being raised in the home. Lets face it most of the puppys go to pet homes. If you are looking for a show prospect definately look for someone who shows and knows their stuff, but again smaller is probably better in my opinion.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> To me a good breeder puts health testing first, temperment, and conformation. Titles are important, but I would like to see the dogs living with their people and being raised in the home. Lets face it most of the puppys go to pet homes. If you are looking for a show prospect definately look for someone who shows and knows their stuff, but again smaller is probably better in my opinion.


When i say title it does not automatically mean must show. There is Obedience , Agility , hunting etc... the list goes on.


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

I see your point. To me that may be the difference between a good breeder and a great breeder, but not the difference between a good breeder and a byb.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> I see your point. To me that may be the difference between a good breeder and a great breeder, but not the difference between a good breeder and a byb.


I agree but if I am paying someone 1500 plus for a puppy. I would like something proven to me this person is not just sitting back and breeding with out a purpose.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree but if I am paying someone 1500 plus for a puppy. I would like something proven to me this person is not just sitting back and breeding with out a purpose.


Unfortunately it's so easy for people to hang onto the coattails of someone else's hard work so that they can profit from it. If people stopped buying from them they couldn't profit from it but there is a market or else they wouldn't be selling puppies.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

From what I understand, showing is the most expensive part of breeding Poodles. (More expensive than health testing.) So no, I wouldn't be willing to pay the same price for a puppy out of tested but untitled parents that I would for a pup out of tested, CH parents. The breeder didn't invest as much in that litter so why should they command the same price?


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## 814 (Jul 3, 2009)

Of course a puppy from champion parents would comand a higher price. The question was what makes a byb. I think that a byb is someone who gets two registered dogs and lets nature take its course. No thought of health testing, waiting till they are at least 2 years old, just in it to make a profit. 

I am not uposed to titling your dogs, I think it is a great way to get out and enjoy your companion. I don't think they should be titled just to bring a higher price either. that being said I would expect to pay more for a dog from champion parents and would in fact seek them out if I was interested in showing.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

gingersnap said:


> Of course a puppy from champion parents would comand a higher price. The question was what makes a byb. I think that a byb is someone who gets two registered dogs and lets nature take its course. No thought of health testing, waiting till they are at least 2 years old, just in it to make a profit.
> 
> I am not uposed to titling your dogs, I think it is a great way to get out and enjoy your companion. I don't think they should be titled just to bring a higher price either. that being said I would expect to pay more for a dog from champion parents and would in fact seek them out if I was interested in showing.


They don't even have to be registered to be BYB over here!!

I think what a lot of people don't realise, that when poodles are closest to the standard, in terms of structure, that generally means they are healthy.

Of course temperament, health testing and everything else is important too.
But I'd much rather seek out a puppy from champion lines than one without.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I wasn't even thinking of just championed in the conformation ring, because the breed ring can be such a political place that I take it with a grain of salt. I would expect a _great_ breeder to be actively showing and winning some sort of titles in *something* though, be it the breed ring, or the obedience.agility/etc ring! I certainly wouldn't call them a byb if they _didn't_ show, as more comes into it than simply not showing, but personally I want a pup that has parents that can prove themselves to be as amazing as standard poodles should be, not just breeding pets....


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> I wasn't even thinking of just championed in the conformation ring, because the breed ring can be such a political place that I take it with a grain of salt. I would expect a _great_ breeder to be actively showing and winning some sort of titles in *something* though, be it the breed ring, or the obedience.agility/etc ring! I certainly wouldn't call them a byb if they _didn't_ show, as more comes into it than simply not showing, but personally I want a pup that has parents that can prove themselves to be as amazing as standard poodles should be, not just breeding pets....


Yes! Exactly!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

gingersnap said:


> Of course a puppy from champion parents would comand a higher price. The question was what makes a byb. I think that a byb is someone who gets two registered dogs and lets nature take its course. No thought of health testing, waiting till they are at least 2 years old, just in it to make a profit.
> 
> I am not uposed to titling your dogs, I think it is a great way to get out and enjoy your companion. I don't think they should be titled just to bring a higher price either. that being said I would expect to pay more for a dog from champion parents and would in fact seek them out if I was interested in showing.


Well I'm glad you're not opposed to titles. My point was, if someone who doesn't title their dog charges the same price as a breeder who does, I question their motives. They aren't investing as much in their litters, so why would they charge as much unless they are interested in profit. I don't think any breeder shows to command a higher price either. $1500 is a number that gets thrown around a lot and here in TX you can get a puppy out of tested and titled parents for that. I would be leary of someone charging $1500 for anything less. (Again that's in TX, prices vary greatly by geography.)

I agree w/ FD too, a breeder doesn't have to show in AKC conformation to get titles on their dogs. If a breeder does anything w/ their dogs it shows they are making an effort, even if it's just getting a CGC.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

This is a prime example of a byb.. local classifides here. http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=218&ad=9401240&cat=447&lpid=


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

Is that a photo of the bitch?? That poor thing looks HORRIBLE! Either sick or abused is my assumption. They need a stud urgently? Is the world gonna end if they can populate the world with sickly pups? Oh, and another thing, there is no such thing as a french poodle...unless they want a stud imported from France.


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## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

Mercury's Mom said:


> Is that a photo of the bitch?? That poor thing looks HORRIBLE! Either sick or abused is my assumption.


Agreed! That poor dog!

I have learned quite a bit through this thread, good job, M.M.!


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