# Older 'new' poodle biting



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Since it is an older pup and you got the pup directly from the breeder, I would call the breeder and ask for their opinion/advice. However, now that I reread your post, it sounded as if the dog was kept in a kennel with no socialization, etc., is that correct? Puppy mill type of breed dog? If that is the case, I am sure there are people in rescue organizations that come across this often -- so hopefully, someone will chime in here. 

It also sounds like the biting, nipping, are fear motivated, which would make sense. Considering the age of the dog, you should take it slow and be consistent -- it may take a good amount of time. It's a shame the breeder did not think of the day the dog would be going to another home. Good luck!

Do post some pictures.


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

First of all you sound as though you have given this dear little girl a very loving and understanding home. It is a very bad idea to put your face near a new dog. She doesn't know your boys and is probably scared. I would suggest your boys stop trying to touch her when they come round and let her come up to them. Give her some space and let her get used to them being at yours,the sound of their voices and their smells and scents. 
I think you must realise that she has spent 7 years in a kennel and has no experience of being in a home. I don't think she thinks sitting on the couch gives her any form of high 
status,it sounds as though she has got very attached to you and just feels very safe next to you,i personally wouldn't stop her laying with you,it will help form a bond. If you try and explain to your boys that she is a little nervous due to her past life and could they give her some space and let her come to them, I'm sure they will understand. 
The fact that she lets you brush her and handle her makes me think she is probably not used to men,and I'm sure with gentle treatment things will improve. 
Also,ask your boys not to stare directly at her as this can make dogs nervous,sometimes yawning at them(which dogs do themselves when under stress) can make them feel calmer.( what I mean is get your boys to yawn at her! ) I hope you can keep her as you sound like a lovely caring owner.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Great advice Carrie-e. I think it may take a good amount of time.....my sister adopted a poodle bichon mix who was a rescue from a puppy mill situation.....ate nothing but slop for his first 2 years (has a compromised immune system now), was crated all day (has joint and hip issues), was fearful of men for a very long time, and still is very shy. My sister just let him come around on his own time and they have had Essie now for 3 years maybe and he has come far, but it's totally different when they come from a kennel situation.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Be patient with her. It sounds like she hasn't had a great life, but is very lucky to be with you. I suspect she is pretty attached to you and may view your sons coming near as interfering with her relationship to you. I would have both your boys do things with her while you stay out of the picture a little bit. For example, let the son who lives with you give her food and water so she starts to see him as a provider of good things. Hopefully this and time will increase her security and comfort with her new life. 

I am working with a couple who adopted a 3 year old chi-terrier mix who spent the last year in shelters. It has taken weeks for her to be reasonably comfortable with the husband and me having hands on her. When I first met her she growled at me pretty continuously from her new mom's arms. I am sure she would have bitten me if I tried to touch her the first few times I saw her. The name of the game with her is go slowly, and I think you may have the same, but results will show themselves with your kind patience.


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## Canuckmom (Feb 18, 2014)

The one think I know from the breeder is that she had been keep with another dog so the 2 did everything together. The other dog was the alpha of the 2 dogs so being away from the alpha she was used to is a big change on top of everything else. 

I was told that this dog was not aggressive but every dog can be aggressive out of fear and given the right situation. It seems we found the right mix for this dog. 

Just got off the phone with the breeder and she really didn't have any more information to give me than what I knew. She just said that she needs more time to adjust and that the combination of actions (her on the couch and the kids leaving over her) likely freaked her out and she lashed out.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Time will be very important here I think. I agree that it sounds like she has latched onto you very quickly and probably feels "safe" with you, and the boys were getting too close! The status thing isn't the issue. 

It may also be that she is afraid of men? My ex had a rescued GSD who was a lovely dog - until he saw someone in uniform then he went bats. We finally figured out (after finding scars) that "someone" had tried to make him into a tough guard dog, presumably someone in uniform. Maxim eventually got better about it but it took a long time as he was an extreme case. Just a thought as you refer to the breeder as "she", so maybe little or no contact with men?

Putting your face up to a dog's face is considered "rude" in canine etiquette I believe, so until she gets used to humans and all their touchy feely foibles she will react.

I believe MollyMuiMa gave you some advice from your intro post about having your boys basically ignore her but just drop lots of super treats so she associates them with good things! Let her come to them. 

Also, maybe try not to overload her with lots of new stuff too quickly. If she's been in a kennel and not socialised it is all going to be a major, major learning curve for her.

Good luck, I am sure you will end up with a super little dog as you obviously care so much about her! And keep chatting with us about any problems - we will try and help 

PS
Maybe try her on a harness for walking? She may be more comfortable than with something round her neck if she's not used to a collar, and while you are training her with the leash it will stop any stress on her neck.


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## RufflySpeaking (Jan 7, 2014)

A kennel doesn't necessarily mean a puppy mill. Many breeders kennel their breeding dogs, and it's usually a blessing on all sides when they find retirement homes for the girls once they are done. It's not the way I personally choose to keep my dogs... but then you should see my house! It's always a tradeoff. 

Ladies of a certain age who have been in a kennel their whole lives do act exactly like you've described when they are in a new home. They are hypervigilant and bark at noises, they whine nervously, they skitter around and want to be near you all the time, and they bite at faces and hands that are unpleasant to them. If she had lived with you since birth and was acting like this, I'd put some blame on her and recommend that you make life a little harder on her. However, knowing her background, it's very likely that all the negative stuff will go away gradually as she settles in, and you don't have to do too much. A year from now you'll look back at your posts and it will astonish you how far she's come.

Reaching and leaning in to kiss or hug a dog is actually quite threatening to them. They can learn to endure it and even like it, but it's instinctively negative to them. So I'd have your kids keep faces and hands away from her until she is calm and happy.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

first, thanks for taking her in. 

second, whatever you do, don't let little kids get near her (and precipitate any adverse reaction from her) until you are sure she is solid re not biting. nipping a child can be a disaster in so many ways.

third, there are some good videos on the internet about teaching a dog to walk on a leash. maybe someone else at pf can point you to some of them. i think some have been posted here, but i'm not positive. i will tell you that when i first got him (at five months), my dog would flatten himself on the floor rather than go out on a leash. my threat: okay, then you're going to be alone. and i would say "goodbye" and leave him by himself, flattened out, for a few moments. eventually he decided he would rather go with than be left alone. but i never really got him to the point of not pulling on the leash to get on home!

fourth, consider working with a trainer, especially on the issue of socialization and calming her fears.

fifth, yes, we need pictures, many, many pictures!


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## Canuckmom (Feb 18, 2014)

I stuck a picture in the intro thread but have no idea how to get it into the profile. I uploaded it but it doesn't show from what I can see.


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## americangirl (May 30, 2013)

Other than the biting, you so described my dog! My Fire is a 5 yr old retired breeder and she's not from a puppy mill or anything, I think it's just really different going from what is probably a very regimented and reliable environment at the breeders to suddenly all this randomness that a household with kids has. We have had her for 5 months and she's gotten sooo much better. What I didn't realize right away is that a lot of the not bad but atypical behaviors she had when I got her, like not being food motivated, is really fear. She doesn't seem afraid, but if she won't take food she is just not comfortable. You can try hand feeding her meals or using real meat or cheese as treats. And definitely keep your training low key! When I bring out the treats I don't ask her to do things, she gets treats for eye contact, letting me reach for her, pats on the head. I'm just working on conditioning her that contact is always good. It only took a few times before she calmed down a lot more that she had in a few months! 

For the biting, I would say that it's likely that off of the couch and away from you your dog (sorry I can't remember the name!) is too nervous to react to threats. But with you it's more of a confidence builder, that you will back her up to these scary boys. Or it could be that she's more trapped and feels she can't get away. I would still let her up on the couch but just tell the boys to stay away when she is up there next to you. 

What helps a bit for the barking at strange noises is to get an ex pen and put her in when you aren't around. It feels a little safer for the dog, but also slowly introduces the concept I having the run of the house in a slower way. 


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## Canuckmom (Feb 18, 2014)

The funny thing is that with me she is a snuggler. She loves to be held and cuddled. When she comes up to sit beside me she leans into me and cuddles. When I do put her in my arms she snuggles right in and doesn't want to move away. Never seen a dog do that.

I am likely going to let her up but when asked not when she wants. She has a crate in the living room and another bed she can lay in and I am crating her at night or if I leave the house. I think that is best for all of us.

The other thing I have done is cut the hair off the top of her head and close to her eyes so she can see and I can see her. She does make eye contact with me and she also will sniff my face. (makes me worried after the nipping she has done with the boys but I accept it because she has not been aggressive to my face ) maybe if she get used to the eye contact and faces she will be less afraid as well?? maybe??

As a breeder dog she was not a pet so she seems to need to learn how to be a pet.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sounds like you are her new alpha. could make it easier to train her. on the other hand, she could decide you're a resource that needs guarding and act up more to defend her access to you. that's where the leadership issue comes in (this is all imo, so take that into account) and i would say that you have to make it clear you don't accept some behaviors, such as nipping people. you may have to start with time outs (in her crate in a separate room) for a couple of minutes (not longer) when she acts possessive. 

obedience classes/training could really help, as it will set up a structure to the relationship that involves more than cuddling. but if she is overly fearful or dog aggressive, individual lessons may be preferable as a starting point.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree with the others - recognise that she is fearful, especially of men, and give her plenty of time and space to come around. It might help if you and your sons read up on dog body language and warning signs - the small indications that a dog is uncomfortable - so you know when she is liable to snap out of fear.

There is an excellent blog on working with anxious and frightened dogs here: Fearfuldogs' Blog | Positive help for fearful dogs


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree with Carrie. NEVER PUT YOUR FACE IN THE FACE OF A FEARFUL DOG. That is aggression to the dog. Sitting beside you should continue, not be taken away. Give the girl some time, she has so much to learn and it will take lots of love and time to get her where you want her to be. But she will get there. Thanks for giving her a loving home for the first time in her life. It takes a special person to take dogs with issues. Thank you !


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, think about how dogs greet. Polite dog greetings among dogs who don't know each other well are never face to face. Also one of the reasons I have problems with Peeves for obedience sits and downs is he is all too willing (herding dog thing) to look other dogs in the eye. If they make even glancing eye contact back, he thinks it is an invitation to play. I generally don't stare at dogs I don't know and certainly don't make in your face eye contact either.


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

The fact that she is so cuddly with you and how you described how she snuggles up to you brought a tear to my eye,especially thinking of the years she spent not being able to have 1 to 1 attention,she is obviously very happy with you. Hope everyone's ideas have helped. You don't have a vicious dog,she is just a nervous little girl unused to a pet life as you said.
Keep working with her,lots of love and encouragement and I bet eventually she will get used to your boys. She won't bite your face when she is sniffing,she must feel completely safe with you to do that. The other thing that I thought if that might help is getting her a dap collar,which emits pheromones to help relax dogs. My little mini princess Tia can be nervous and she is being spayed next week so is wearing a collar now.


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