# When to spay?



## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm not sure about females, but most breeders that I have talked to recommend neutering at 12-14 months. Jasper was done on the longer end of that because my vet was on vacation and I wanted him to do the neuter and more specifically the gastropexy. I do know a woman who had her welsh terrier spayed at 6 months and the dog developed some kind of urinary incontinence as a result. I'm not sure if that's typical or not. It's been years since I've had a female dog.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If I could do it over again I would have waited until Millie was 18 months to spay and pexy her. My vet talked me into spaying her at 5 months and into not pexying her. I regret both.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks Chocolate Minnie. I think I might wait to spay her. It is hard when the vet is pressuring you to do it. Well, not really pressuring, but recommending highly. Since my spoo will be around 22 inches, I don't think she will be big enough to worry about bloat and there isn't any bloat in her lines (that has been reported). 

Do you know when the average time to come into heat is? I guess I will go look it up.

By the way, CM, your show is coming up with Tiger! Good luck with that. I know he'll make you proud and all that brushing will be worth it.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

You keep saying your girl is small. Sookie is 22" and turns 1 next week. She is very competitive size wise at shows. 22" is fine for a female. Don't concentrate on size so much. Most bitches in the ring are 21 to 23". You've got a pretty puppy and from your pictures she looks to be a good size. Sookie is smallish but that's ok.  

The first heat happens anywhere from 9 to 18 months. For mine it was 11 months. It varies by line. Like young girls, it depends. I agree with CM and wait until she's older until you spay. (If you do.) Good luck with showing. Give it a try and don't worry so much! It's about you and your girl having fun together. And getting a few nice ribbons too!
I've never done UKC but it sounds like fun for sure.


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## Megan (May 1, 2011)

I was just about to post this exact same question, but now that you posted it I hope you don't mind if I piggy-back your thread a bit. My vet is recommending that I get my puppy spayed no later than 6 months, and her breeder agreement states no later than 10 months. Do spoo puppies generally go into heat before 6 months of age? I want to wait as long as possible to get her spayed, but would it be a bad idea to wait until she is 10 months old to get it done?


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

The buzz in the Agility community seems to be to wait for maturity before neutering. I found an interesting discussion about it on another dog forum; might be worth a read. Different posters provided links to arguments on both sides. Health Issues from Neutering Early

--Q


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i got all my gals done earlier at 6-7 months
my sister got her female spayed at 18 months. 
i just wanted it over with since i am not showing them nor had any desire for puppies. 
i have a sister who didn't spay her female dog and it got breast cancer so it made my decision.
i see arguments for both sides, but i opted for early. 

and i totally agree w/ others about your focus on your dog's size. 22 inches is not too small. americans in general have this bigger is better attitude which is not necessarily true. bigger isn't always better, it's just bigger.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I recommend to my puppy families that males be neutered at 12 to 14 months and females be spayed at 8 months. In my opinion, this gives them a chance to have the hormones that will allow them to be all they can be, but eliminates the risks in a female of accidental breeding and mammary cancer associated with as little as one heat.


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## jfo (Nov 19, 2010)

I can't recommend what I think you should do, but I can tell you that we're spaying Raven at 5 1/2 mos. due to a nasty case of puppy vaginitis that causes chronic bladder infections. We "clean her up" several times a day including a wipe after every potty break and yet we are on our third round of antibiotics for yet another bladder infection. For us, the risks outweigh the benefits. I think it's a personal choice, depending on the situation.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> I have been thinking of spaying my puppy, but hesitate to do it quite yet. She is 6 months old and the vet is saying to do it now.
> 
> She is already going to be a small spoo and I'd like her to grow as large as she can. Will spaying early stop or slow her growth? When do they come into heat for the first time? I can't remember since it has been so long since I had an unspayed female. I recall around 8/9/10 months or is it later? They don't grow much after they first come into heat, that I remember.
> 
> ...


Re: Size - I agree with everyone else that 22 inches is hardly abnormally small for a bitch. Millie is out of the Peckerwood line and he likes to produce smaller dogs and bitches - his bitches I'd say are closer to 21-23 inches and dogs around 24 inches tall. (Millie is out of Peckerwood dog and has her height - 24.5 inches - from her dam, from a different line.)

Re: Bloat - I feel that I have to comment because it sounds like you are bordering dangerous territory as far as thinking that you are exempt or safe from bloat with a "small" bitch. There is so such thing as a standard poodle not being at risk for bloat. First, how do you know that there is no bloat in her line? Who tells you this? How do you know that it simply hasn't been reported? MANY health issues, including bloat, are not reported.

Regarding bitches on the smaller side bloating... A member of this forum has a small, compact bitch that was going to be shown, bloated/torsioned and was spayed, ending her show career. Her owner used to frequent this forum. 

Finally, bloat is not genetic, so any dog can bloat. I just want to make sure that you consider that bloat/torsion could happen to your poodle just as any and that if it does happen it is the greatest emergency imaginable.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

I know with our spoo, the breeder recommended no earlier than 10 months, but our vet, who I really like was pushing for 6 months. When we talked to her and explained our reasons, she understood. We will probably spay at 11 months just because my husband will be on break from school over christmas and will be able to be home with Lexi after her surgery. We are really going back and forth on the pexy.


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

*Early Spaying*

One of my spoo's came in heat at 10 1/2 months and the other one didn't until she was 14 mths. As far as spaying, please do some internet research. It does reduce the risks of some cancers and incresses it for other types. If you choose to show UKC, they have altered classes for them, so you can show a spayed female.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for everyones thoughts! I think I will wait a little while to spay her. I can show her for fun when she is 7/8/9 months old and still have her spayed at 10 months if I want to. 

As far as thinking she is small, she has a mixed parentage of Canadian, European and American lines with agility poodles here and there. Canadian and European spoos have many more members that are in the 21-23 inch range for a female than American spoos, so that seems like a fine size. American spoos tend to be several inches bigger and a 22 inch female IS small here. My last spoo female was 25 inches and that seemed normal. Bonnies dam is Canadian. She will be the smallest dog I have ever had. I agree, though, 22 inches is a terrific size for a dog. 

The other thing is people at the dog park have larger spoos, in some cases giant, and they say, "Oh, she is so small." "What a tiny standard." at the same time they are commenting how cute she is. I just say 'yep'. Then I look at their spoos and Bonnie is sparklier, prettier and so well put together in comparison.  Yet she is noticeable smaller. Heck, she is just 6 months old, too. You just need look at Sookie and Nova in Sooksters posts to see the huge size difference between a 22 inch spoo and a bigger one, like the ones around here, in the US. 

Maybe I am just missing my last spoo, too. Clara was my best friend. Bonnie will never be able to replace her, but Bonnie is such a wonderful dog, I feel lucky to have her! 

Her breeder recommended 18 months for spaying. Spaying around 10 months sounds like a happy medium, if I decide to. I will hold the vet off for now.

I don't know about the plexy surgery. I will research it more and talk to the vet about it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Outwest, IMO, 25 inches is on the large side for a bitch.  Most I see are smaller than that. From American lines. Mine is smaller than that. I don't know why you think that 22 inches is so small for a female. It really is not. Promise!  Bonnie is just perfect.

Millie is ~24 inches and I would not want a female any bigger than her. She is so feminine looking. When bitches are the size of dogs it is not appealing to me as a more compact female.

Re: Pexy - Pexy is a very individual decision. There are pros and cons to weigh and there is no right, one size fits all answer.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Okay. I guess my Clara was big then. And, the pet poodles I see are all big! Bonnie will be a perfect size for me.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

"Puppies sold by Tiara Standard Poodles are not to be neutered, in consideration for better health, until they are very close to maturity (after 12 months, preferably, 14 months of age). Contracts with new owners now spell this out. "
Hi Outwest.I just came across this while looking up poodles/pedigrees..maybe you have this clause in your contract?
I only spayed my girl after her first heat..she's a small red and I wanted her to be fully grown before the procedure.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

She does want her dogs spayed older, I know that. I will review the contract again. She even emailed to not let the vet talk me into a young spay when I was asking her a question about UKC and spaying (she mentioned the altered class, but said there was hardly any poodle competition in it). She feels the females need their hormones all through their growing period and particularly for bone density. If the contract actually says 12 months or older, then I will do that. I haven't looked at the contract since I got her. I just remember her talking about a year and a half.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Finally, bloat is not genetic, so any dog can bloat. I just want to make sure that you consider that bloat/torsion could happen to your poodle just as any and that if it does happen it is the greatest emergency imaginable.



Bloat theories and personal opinions abound, facts are few and far between. But unless I've missed some big announcement by the scientists in the poodle world, we've got a heck of a long way to go with bloat research before a determination can be made that it is not genetic.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I understand that some people simply don't want to deal with a heat cycle, are afraid of an accidental pregnancy, but I truly believe that the later a girl is spayed, the better. I've had some ethical debates with myself over this. Hormone and hormone regulation play huge roles in overall health and well being. If I allow my puppies to be sp/eutered young am I 1) putting their health in jeopardy 2) setting them up for health issues which wouldn't have occurred if the sp/eutering would have taken place when they were older... an related consequence of that is.. when those registrations for health issues go into PHR.. well.. am I not only sabotaging my puppies health, but my own reputation as a breeder by allowing early sp/euters? There are a lot of really great studies out there with pros/cons of early sp/eutering. When I read through them....I can't imagine spaying early.
I don't know of one pet poodle who has ever experienced pyometra. As far as onset of heat cycles, I've found that most bitch puppies tend to start their heat cycles at approximately the same age their mothers did.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I worked for a veterinarian in my late teens/early 20's. I have seen pyometra in unspayed female dogs. In every case that I recall -which was probably 5 or 6 in four years in a busy practice?-the female was quite old and had also had several litters in her youth. I have not read any literature on it and am certainly not an expert, but I do not recall any dog under 8 years getting it and most were elderly. Any age female can get it and it can kill them, but is not common in the general population of young unspayed females.

My breeders dogs come into heat around a year. I have dealt with females in heat before. It isn't that big a deal and doesn't last long. I would just keep her safe. 

Waiting will give me a chance to see about showing, how she ends up, allow her to physically develop with her hormones intact, determine if I want to have her tested (or send her DNA to that study) and have puppies or not. In order to breed her I have to meet strict requirements, which are in writing, which includes full testing and other things, which I appreciate. My options are open at the moment, but may close, too. 

Her coloring is a consideration, too. It was between cream and apricot for several weeks, but after her last groom is turning a rich, light taupe color and losing the orange hue. I am not thinking light apricot anymore. My husband was looking at her tonight and said, "Her color is different again!" It's a beautiful, yummy color, but what is going on?!? LOL The hair between her shoulders is getting really thick and curly and is light creamy taupe (is that coat change already?). Since her points are black, I guess she is a dark cream? Since she has such a diverse foreign background, albeit at least 90% black, who knows. I don't think off colors should be bred even if they are pretty, but maybe she is a true cream that retains the color since she has gotten a bit darker, not lighter. I wish I could find another poodle picture with the same coloring. Maybe I will search creams on the forum. Watch her end up white. At this point I have NO idea. 

In the end, I did agree to spay later. I don't have to think about it for now. Like other breeders concerned with early spays, it reflects on their lines if an early spay causes bone or health issues later on even though the jury is still out on that one. 

I just hope my 25% off spay discount with the vets puppy package is good for over a year.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

I think the current recommendation for "best" (safest, least health problems) for the dog is not even spays or neuters but is vasectomies and tubals, with the uterine horn removal in bitches. it's being done by scope. The problem is.. finding a vet who will do it. I tried to find a vet who would do a vasectomy a few years ago and that was wasted effort. 

Great that you don't need to make any quick decisions. gives you time to research and find out what's best.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

Early Sterilization Brochure - Minnesota Malamute Club

Why Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies for Pets Can Be Like Pulling Teeth (And What YOU Can Do About It) | petMD

Interesting alternatives, much less invasive and can be done early without ill effects.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Nice idea. Maybe if you lived near a vet school. btw: looked around on the net- my pup is definitely not an apricot or a white or off colored, but a full cream.


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## redisabella (Jun 14, 2013)

Hi, I've read a lot of the posts re at what age to spay and learned a lot. Thanks! My Isabella turned 7 months July 8th. Her vet wanted her spayed last month. I've decided to definitely wait until she's had her first heat. But I was wondering... can a dog just have the uterus removed and the ovaries left? It's the ovaries that provide the needed hormones, right? Here's a pick of my girl.. I watched youtube and learned how to give her a sort-of-bikini clip for the summer :act-up:


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## Jstanfill (Oct 22, 2020)

My vet recommended to go and spay her after she had last cycle or heat , she was under 1 and when was 1 I spayed her, when u spay no running so I left her there to recover , they could check up. On her better , no running, zoomies or chasing squirrels


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