# Need to crowd source something



## Scarlet (Apr 20, 2017)

Hmmm... I'll try to channel my inner Catherine. :wink:

I think the advice you would give in this situation, would be to leave Javelin at home until there's someone there who can help you control his reactions. You don't want his negative behavior to end up being self rewarding, which will happen if you aren't there rewarding positive behavior. This would apply to him being left in the truck, as well as behind the desk, in my opinion. 

Once you have some help again, you can then focus on working with him through these challenges again. But for now, you'll both be calmer and happier if he's relaxing at home (which could even help him break through this pattern as you've pointed out). 

Hope your assistant's husband gets well soon so she's able to help you out again!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I too would leave him at home. Having him with you - even out in the car - is going to be a constant distraction, and as Click says, you will only wind each other up further. A few weeks to forget the fun of owning the joint, and then returning when you know you will have time to focus on him, seems to me the best way forward.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Agree with all that it might be best for Javvy to stay home until your assistant is able to help again. You cannot keep your attention on both Javvy and the class. Use the time to concentrate on Lily.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

What I would do is if there is room put his crate in the area he is guarding and every time he starts to "get stupid" go and throw a blanket over his crate so he cannot see out. After he is quiet for a couple of minutes take the cover off. I have seen this work on a number of different dogs in a number of different situations. Of course that means interrupting what you are doing to cover/uncover at need, but maybe there is somebody else there who could do that. 

Don't say anything to him, just put the cover on.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Leaving him home is the direction I was leaning. I have our ring rented for an hour and a half on Monday and will be taking both of them, but will not leave him behind the desk. I will work Javelin first and hope to tire him out then put him in my truck (will park in a quiet corner). Since we have a winter break from classes I also plan to take him to class either Tuesday or Thursday (just him) so he has to focus on working in the class with me rather than noodling around coming up with bad and self reinforcing ideas of things to do. Next Friday I will leave him home. Thanks for the wise thoughts and more ideas are more than welcome.

ETA reraven I think I was typing as you posted. I like your idea too, but he isn't the best crate dog all of the time either. I also don't have a guarantee of someone who could go throw the cover over it, but I will give that a try after he has a couple of weeks of a break and I have cut into this pattern before he sets it any more permanently into his little brain.

My assistant's husband is nearing the end of a course of combination chemotherapy and radiation treatments to shrink an esophageal tumor. He will then have a month to rest before surgery to resect. Imaging showed no metastatic masses anywhere before they started and he is in otherwise very good health (no cardiovascular, renal or other issues and normal weight, good exercise and nutrition before starting) so his prognosis is pretty good, but right now they are under the hammers of hell since he is feeling the maximum effects of the radiation. She and I text or email once a week at least. She seems to be holding up, but we both miss our normal Fridays (her probably way more than me).


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

No advice but a big GOOD LUCK! 
Have you figured out why he is being so territorial? I know guarding is a hard trait to train out of a dog sometimes, and I hope you can find out his triggers and thresholds..... I know you will do it and Javie will be a well mannered adult..... he is lucky to have you!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Molly I am not sure. Part of me thinks he might think he is protecting Lily (who is behind the desk with him), but his guarding behavior in my truck is less pronounced when she is with us than if it is just me and him. Lily used to aggressively guard in my truck too, but just outgrew it on her own. I do work on the guarding in the truck when I have just him by telling him to lie down before he has a chance to engage in defending when people walk by in a parking lot. I treat him with nice goodies as long as he holds the down and doesn't bark. I also do a lot of work on making his entries to the truck as well as his exits calm and controlled. It is a work in progress and his responses wax and wane although generally he is improving.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Sounds like your assistant and her husband are going through hell, so first, prayers to them.

And Javelin. He's the little kid who when you take him to a nice restaurant for the first time, he acts out. You have a talk with him and try again and he's worse. He bounces in his seat, slides under the table to "play quietly" with the toy you thought to bring along, then while waiting to be served he slips away and turns the outing into a meet 'n greet opportunity with other customers who are trying to enjoy their meal. They smiling tightly and say he's adorable. Yeah, right. Been there done that. The good news: he grew out of it.

In short, IMHO, Javelin's not ready for prime time. Don't worry, Lily can tell him all about when she gets home, and because of his great doggy nose, he'll know exactly where she's been. Worked for me.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

It sounds awfully like the beginning of resource guarding.

Eric.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Sorry to hear that you are having trouble with Javelin, Catherine. I hope your assistant gets through these next weeks and is able to join you again.

In the meantime, like the others, I would plan on leaving him home until I could devote time to train him out of it. I hope you figure out the trigger and extinguish this behavior without too much difficulty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Leave him at home for a few weeks is my suggestion, and here's why. The more opportunities he has to practice Symphony in Crazy, the better he is going to be at performing his solo. He's escalating his guarding behavior, which is a sign his practice is working. Break this habit by not letting him practice Symphony in Crazy at all. Javelin, you're temporarily suspended.

As always, let's put our thinking caps on and figure out what the opposite behavior would be, and train toward it. The opposite of being a leaping crazy guardian would be settling in a crate. That way you don't have to worry about what he's doing when your back is turned. So, practice crate games at home. 

Pick a tv show you like, put the crate by you and drop a treat in it every other second, Every other second is too fast for the dog to get a chance to get wound up. If Javelin hates a crate, start the first night with the door open, but drop a treat in it far enough back where he has to get inside to eat it. Every other second a treat falls in roughly the same place in the back. Run in, eat the treat, run out, run in...

Work up the criteria the next night by shutting the door with your foot every so often, but drop three treats every time the door shuts. Breathe, kick open the door. Ease the criteria up until he is calm in his crate for a whole tv show with random rewards. Ease the criteria until he is calm for a whole TV show with a super awesome chew treat to enjoy the whole show.

Is there a chance that you could bring Javelin and a crate to dog school when someone else is teaching? You just sit next to his crate, dropping treats on his feet every other second, while people come to train their dogs? That would be ideal. People coming and going, lots of activity, lots of dogs to see, but you are sitting next to him dropping treats before he has a chance to get wound up. Look at that dog, that's a sheltie. Look at that, that's a viszla. You're cool as a cucumber, dropping treats, pointing out the interesting things to look at calmly. 

He has to practice being calm with you reinforcing every two seconds, every three seconds, then you getting up and walking away for one second... you know how to desensitize him, but I think a crate is essential for your own ability to focus on teaching your classes. Ideally, he'd be in a quiet out of the way spot where no one will wind him up, but you can still get there to reward him periodically. 

No more Symphony in Crazy, tonight was his last rehearsal of that solo. Break the first link in the behavior chain by not going to Friday class, but substitute practicing calm crate time with you there to reinforce at home, then start all over at school from the beginning. I recently had to do that with Noelle, but for a different reason. She was flirting with cashiers in store lines, and getting hyperactive, losing all sense of manners. So, I broke the first link in the chain. No more shopping for two weeks, at all. We practiced step together, sit, at home. Then when we came back to the store, we did things differently. My daughter paid for things, we didn't wait in line at all. We went to empty cashier lines and practiced step, together, sit. I reintroduced actual lines after a three week break. Noelle's manners improved 95%, but I had to break the first link in the behavior chain first.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click-N-Treat thank you for thinking this all through so clearly. I really knew that leaving him home and working on the settle behavior was probably the way to go but I was so tired and aggravated about it that I needed to hear it from other folks. Eric I don't think it is resource guarding per say. It is a feeling about space that Lily also had in my vehicle but easily outgrew. I am sure we will get it settled down with some directed attention. He is actually a really stellar performance dog in the making. Vita I wish I could see this as so innocent as you make it sound, but I just don't think in such anthropomorphic terms about why dogs do what they do. He has gotten away with a behavior that now needs to be dealt with in a dogcentric set of parameters.

galofpink I am hoping for my friend and her husband to be close to turning a corner once the poisons are done with. Everyone's kind thoughts will be conveyed.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

You were on the right track. You just needed us to shine our flashlights a little, that's all. Onward and upward. You've got this. Can't wait to hear how you sort it out.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Early days yet. Never forget, he is a standard poodle, with all that it includes. LOL


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I can't improve on Click's recommendations. I do hope your assistant's husband's treatment is successful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Skylar said:


> I can't improve on Click's recommendations. I do hope your assistant's husband's treatment is successful.


I hope his treatment is successful too. They aren't even 60 yet. they should be looking forward to many years together with their sons and grandchildren.

Javelin is on a very strict, do nothing unless I tell you to regime right now. He is very sweet smart and clever, but also a bit pushy and thinks he can decide to do stupid things for himself sometimes. Looking back last week was pretty wild west for him since I was out a lot. We will get back on track before long. I am happy I have a week off from classes to be able to focus on him.


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

ah,the joys of young boys! :aetsch:

Martha et al


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I really, really believe boys are different from girls, and that could be involved a bit here. Though not close to being an expert like you, Lily CD RE, I've experienced it in both cats and dogs. Wasn't blessed with human children, though having been one can speak to it to some limited degree.

At any rate, you'll get this fixed, and will continue enjoying a lovely relationship with your handsome Javelin . Many good healing thoughts to your friend's DH, and assurances the exhaustion from radiation does improve a great deal, though may possibly impact things from time to time in the future. Prayers for rapid healing from the side effects of this lifesaving treatment, too. All in all, it's well worth it for most, imho.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Streetcar, my friend worked as a surg tech nurse in her pre-retirement life, so thankfully she is well equipped to understand what DH is experiencing. Based on what she has told em I think they have many reasons to be optimistic.

And yes, I will get my young man back on the straight and narrow with some NILIF days ahead.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

When you do bring him back, one thing that might help is changing up the physical environment he's in. My little Cleo can get very territorial at times, and the best way to break her out of it is to make the places she's guarding seem a little unfamiliar - furniture not where she's used to, not seeing it at the time or under the same circumstances as before, etc. For her, guarding is habitual. If I shake things up a little bit, it gives her a moment of uncertainty that I can exploit to retrain her on how she interacts with the space. 

I'm sure these things vary based on the dog and what/why they're guarding, but just something to consider.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl I do plan to change his space dramatically when I bring him back. He will be in a crate in a different room! Right now he needs to break the behavior pattern. I took them to my club for rental time today and worked with Javelin first and then took him out to my truck while Lily and I worked. He was quiet while he was outside.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

*A Step in the Right Direction*

I took a private lesson with Javelin at my trainer's facility and she has a desk in one corner of the space. While it is a different desk and totally different look from the desk I decided to stay and watch the next hour (which is a class) so that I could make sure Javelin would remain relaxed around other working dogs since his problem at my club has been the worst in relation to watching me doing stuff with other dogs and people. He was great and stayed relaxed even with dogs coming in from directed jumping right near us. After sitting for a while while the group warmed up he actually laid himself down and stayed there for a good long while. One of the other dogs who was there is an older intact male Irish Setter with whom Javelin has had a couple of barking matches in the past. The IS barked from his crate a few times and Javelin gave no answer.

It is just a small step and I still will be leaving him home tomorrow, but I might take him to my club for a while on Saturday morning. We are having a match and although I didn't enter him (or Lily) I think transferring quiet watching to the place he thinks he "owns" would be time well spent.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I would crate, maybe with a cover over it. Do you crate in the truck? I know I sound like a bitch, but since the purpose of a crate is chill time, I don't feel bad preventing and/or punishing crate behavior I don't like. So I would cover the crate, or have the crate close enough to bang on it if he was being noisy. 

How is he on a table? Depending on the dog, a grooming table can serve as a virtual crate, and some dogs prefer it. Many show dogs are more chill and happy on a table at a show than in a crate.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Javelin is okay in a crate if he can't hear me and a little iffy about settling if he hears me talking, but there is no place I can crate him that he won't hear me working with other people and dogs. I do have a crate (tent style) in the living room and he often sleeps in it so I have been rewarding him for hanging out there with special goodies. Putting him in a crate at the club is definitely part of the plan. I don't crate my dogs in the car. They wear harnesses and tethers. With my training gear, work stuff and actual dogs there is no room for two crates the size I would need to allow them to be able to change positions for comfort on long trips. 

Phase I is definitely breaking the current behavior pattern by preventing him from practicing it. I left him home today. Tomorrow I will take him to the club to have him chill while other people are working Depending on how that goes I will adjust as I need to.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

After giving Javelin a "time out" of staying home yesterday I took him to my club today to work on impulse control around distractions as part of the scheme to get him to let go of his notion that he "owns" the space behind the front desk. First I spent time in our lobby room with several dogs in crates and various people/people & dogs passing by. I just worked on having him sit at heel and giving heads up attention around relatively mild distractions there.

After one person who had two intact male collies in crates in the area near where I wanted to work left I moved into the area where the front desk is. I put a chair with the gate that closes off the area that has been problematic to our immediate left and a crate immediately to the right. When we started we only had a dog behind the desk on our left as my friend whose crate was to our right was in the ring. In addition to the distraction of the dog behind the desk I had cheese sitting on my knees and along the way my friend brought her dog back and put him in his crate. Both the neighboring dogs were intact male golden retrievers and the younger one in the crate is a dog Javelin knows. As you will see if you watch the video he had a little bit of a hard time holding attention and didn't take orders on the first command, but this was a super hard environment so I will forgive him that. Otherwise he did really well, still a work in progress, but moving in the right direction.

























Here is the video.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

Awww Javvy - you did so good!!!!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Javvy pups is a quick learner! Keep it up.

Eric


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

ericwd9 said:


> Javvy pups is a quick learner! Keep it up.
> 
> Eric


He is quick, but it helps that deep in that little pea brain of his he really knows what the right thing to do is. As a smart boy he always tests the limits, then he gets some structured reminders and it all falls back into place pretty quickly. Every time he pushes the boundaries out it is easier to recollect him and he becomes less likely to do that thing in that place. Hopefully he will start to generalize it all a bit better soon so we don't have to keep reminding him of his manners.


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

Looking good,Javvs! Still getting that boy brain together,Mom:aetsch:

Martha et al


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

What a great exercise to "just" sit there in a relaxed manner and work on attention with everyone and dogs milling around. Great job Javvy; keep up the good work!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

galofpink said:


> What a great exercise to "just" sit there in a relaxed manner and work on attention with everyone and dogs milling around. Great job Javvy; keep up the good work!


He actually was pretty worn out by that work since it was big time brain drain stuff. Ignore the dogs, ignore the people, ignore the cheese right there half a tongue flick away, ignore, ignore, ignore and chill...


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