# Klein/Moyen Poodle



## Jgale

We just got a puppy from karin at karbit poodles and he is the most awesome dog ever. His father is a mini and his mom is a Klein. He is outgoing, funny, mellow and amazing with my kids. I taught him to go down the slide at the playground in about 3 minutes.

I can't say exactly how big he is because we haven't been to the vet in a while. He is about the same size as our cat right now and he is about 5 months old. 
Karin was so nice and easy to work with. We are thrilled with our pup and I recommend her highly


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## missmygirls

Thank you. I have just come back from her website. May I ask what the price range on a klein is? I have not contacted her yet. Maybe you could post a pic of your baby for me. He sounds delightful. Is he a cuddler? I need a cuddle bug lol. That is why I wanted a mini. Is he to big for your lap? Also, I heard somewhere on here that her dogs are more the agility type and need a job. Is that true. Is he really busy/hyper? I know he is still young. Take care.


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## Jgale

There is a picture of him under the apricot poodle thread in the poodle pictures section here. He cost $1500 and he was shipped which was an additional $300 or so. 
I would not describe him as hyper at all. So far he seems active but mellow. He has gone jogging with me and can easily run around for 45 minutes but is fine without a run too. I have 4 kids and another dog so our house is a pretty active place. He is definitely snuggley ad gets up on the couch whenever I sit down to watch tv. He's awesome. Doing great with his obedience training. 

Good luck.


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## LEUllman

Our boy Beau isn't an actual klein/moyen, but is an oversized mini at about 16.5". As far we are concerned, he's the perfect size dog; not too big, not too small. I'm sure his going oversize was not what his breeder wanted, as she had intended to show him, but it meant she ended up reluctantly letting him go as a 6-month old pup -- and we got very, very lucky!

His temperament is perfect for us, being mostly mellow and laid back. He's a couch potato, for sure, and a total cuddlebug. Lately, he's even been climbing up in laps, which he fills very nicely! A single 1/2 hour walk and some backyard playtime each day, and he's satisfied. Of course, YMMV. There are other oversize minis on this forum that are high-activity dogs, more suited for tearing around an agility arena than curling up in your lap while you sip a nice glass of wine and read PoodleForum.com on your iPad. :smile:

Finding a dog like Beau will require luck and patience, but it can be done, especially if you're flexible about color and gender. Good luck in your search!


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## peppersb

I am very interested in seeing more well bred small standard poodles and/or kleins and/or big minis. My girl Cammie is 21 inches, 35 pounds, and I think it is a terrific size. I started a web site to try to promote the breeding of small standard poodles. You can take a look at it and read about my search for a small standard here:
Small Standard Poodles

However, I have to say that I have been quite disappointed that there do not seem to be many breeders out there that are doing a good job of breeding kleins/moyens. There are quite a few that are doing a really bad job of it. I won't mention names, but I know of two klein breeders that are currently breeding bitches who are not even 18 months old. One of them is using a stud that is not even a year old. If you are looking for a klein (or any poodle for that matter), get the registered names of the parent dogs and look them up on poodlepedigree.com. If they are not yet two years old at the time that they are bred, then cross that breeder off your list. It is also a good idea to look up the parent dogs on Orthopedic Foundation for Animals to check health testing.

Poodles that are not yet 2 years old have not completed their health testing, and they are also not yet physically and mentally mature. I heard of one bitch who was only 13 months old when she was bred, 15 months when the pups were born. Disgusting. 

The other thing that you should be aware of is that many people are trying to produce the klein size by breeding standards to minis. If there is more than about 10 cm (4 inches) difference in size between the two parents, you can get very strange proportions--often legs too short for the size of the body. IMO, it would be OK to buy a puppy if the standard-mini cross was a few generations back and you were able to see that the parents of your litter looked OK. 

Karbit sounds like a good suggestion. You might also want to look at Tiara. Or if you look hard you might get lucky and find a small standard (as I did) or an oversized mini (as LEUllman did). I really really wish that it was easier to find this size.


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## 3dogs

I would 2nd & 3rd Karbit Poodles. You will have to talk to Karen about what you want & that you want more of a laid back dog vs. one with more drive. She was really nice when I contacted her. I though went the Rescue route because I was uncomfortable with shipping. Now that I know more I would buy 1 of her dogs. 
I also agree that I wish there were more breeders going for the "Klein/Moyen" size. My dog Leif if great out of Carolina Poodle Rescue. He is 22" & 37lbs & about as large as I want in a Poodle. After him I am going smaller. But he is an awesome dog with loads of energy & luckily I have 2 retriever X's & an OT Poodle to play with & close to a 1/2 acre of fenced in yard to run in. Otherwise his energy might be a bit much. I don't know his age but he is anywhere from 4-7 years of age.

You might look into Mini breeders since many of the Mini's are going oversized these days. You might find one that is just what you are looking for a small enough dog to cuddle with but large enough for your DH to like.


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## missmygirls

*tHANK YOU FOR ALL OF THE ADVICE*

Thank you all who have put up with me and advised me over the last week. My husband told me that I was obsessing over this whole thing. But I really want to have all of the facts about everything before I make a decision. I have looked at karbits website. She is the only reputable breeder that I have heard about on here so far. I am taking notes lol. I have learned alot about genetics lately. Takes me back to highschool biology class where we learned all about eyecolor and dominent and resessive genes lol. Anyone remember that? 
How big can an oversized mini get, and how can you tell it will be oversized? And when they say a dog measures 17 inches at the shoulder, how tall does that make him at the top of his head lol.
What is the size difference between a tall mini and a small standard? 
Temperment, is there a diff. between standard and mini? I am looking for a cuddler, dont really care if they are active. I m used to it around here. Just as long as they are able to go lay down and chill for a while each day or watch a little tv lol


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## missmygirls

LEUllman said:


> Our boy Beau isn't an actual klein/moyen, but is an oversized mini at about 16.5". As far we are concerned, he's the perfect size dog; not too big, not too small. I'm sure his going oversize was not what his breeder wanted, as she had intended to show him, but it meant she ended up reluctantly letting him go as a 6-month old pup -- and we got very, very lucky!
> 
> His temperament is perfect for us, being mostly mellow and laid back. He's a couch potato, for sure, and a total cuddlebug. Lately, he's even been climbing up in laps, which he fills very nicely! A single 1/2 hour walk and some backyard playtime each day, and he's satisfied. Of course, YMMV. There are other oversize minis on this forum that are high-activity dogs, more suited for tearing around an agility arena than curling up in your lap while you sip a nice glass of wine and read PoodleForum.com on your iPad. :smile:
> 
> Finding a dog like Beau will require luck and patience, but it can be done, especially if you're flexible about color and gender. Good luck in your search!



I need a Beau!! LOL Who was your breeder? I need a dog that will be happy with a nice long walk and some playtime in the backyard fetching or playing with the kids. I had planned to go with EagleHill, before my husband had an opinion. sigh. I told him to go buy his own dog lol.


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## schnauzerpoodle

My silver boy is also an oversized mini - 20 lbs and 17.5 inches tall. He's from Aery in TN. Experienced breeders can tell whether the puppy is going to go over the 15" limit. I highly recommend Richard, my breeder (Aery) and also Mimi, Beau's breeder (Noriko). I think Mimi has a litter of minis on the ground right now.

Aery Poodles Aery
Noriko Poodles - Miniature Litter 

Debbie (EagleHill) is a wonderful breeder too. Talk to all three of them. Let them know what you are looking for and learn more about their breeding plans. All 3 of them health test their breeding stock.


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## schpeckie

Hello and :welcome: to forum! Best of Luck finding the right poodle for you and your family!


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## missmygirls

schnauzerpoodle said:


> My silver boy is also an oversized mini - 20 lbs and 17.5 inches tall. He's from Aery in TN. Experienced breeders can tell whether the puppy is going to go over the 15" limit. I highly recommend Richard, my breeder (Aery) and also Mimi, Beau's breeder (Noriko). I think Mimi has a litter of minis on the ground right now.
> 
> Aery Poodles Aery
> Noriko Poodles - Miniature Litter
> 
> Debbie (EagleHill) is a wonderful breeder too. Talk to all three of them. Let them know what you are looking for and learn more about their breeding plans. All 3 of them health test their breeding stock.



I will do that. I have already contacted Debbie. I really like her and she is only a day drive away. I love Aery, But I can not afford him. As is, getting my hands on 1500 for a pet is going to be very difficult. I am saving every penny I can get my hands on lol. no more pedicures, hair cuts, or extras for me... I always joked that my last girl got a better hair cut on a more regular basis than I ever did lol. Is there not a good breeder out there that is around 1000? I just want a good looking great tempered pet. I know that you get what you pay for trust me, but we are a single income family and my husband doesnt understand breeding?


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## outwest

Tiara has small standards often and Moyens on occasion. They are pricey, but worth it in my opinion. I do not think you will find a breeder who health tests for around $1000 here in California, but I am sure you can find something! Try Craigs list? Trouble is, there is often a big difference in the dog you get from a great breeding and one you get otherwise. Still, you can also find a wonderful pet at the SPCA and continue to have your nails done.  There is also the poodle rescue, but sometimes you will get behavior problems you need to deal with, but not always:
Poodle Rescue - California - Toy - Standard - Miniature - Labradoodle - Goldendoodle

I know poodles in the middle of the US seem to be quite a bit less expensive than ones on the coasts. I don't know why, but it might be cheaper to fly one from the middle of the country than buy one here in CA. I know there are a bunch of people on the poodle forum who have gotten their poodles for much less than $1500! I can be done!


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## Dog catcher

Expect to pay more than $1000 for a Klein poodle that is well bred. We found one that is 18" and 25 pounds. When I take her for walks men comment on her being the perfect size and women comment on how pretty she is. She is well worth what we paid for her and probably a whole lot more.


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## Poodlesrule 1

If you are looking or size try an over size mini. We have a 143/4" show mini, a 23" show standard and a 271/2" retired standard. Over sized minis can be over 15" to ?. Breeding standards to minis may or may not work out so you might have structure issues down the road. You might even want to check rescues. With the economy some breeders are down sizing, you might find what you want. Also check shelters, purebreds are finding their way there when the owners can no longer keep them. Some members have mentioned dogs at shelters or rescues. Someone got a georgeous toy when the breeder downsized they are members on the forum. I think it was in CA maybe.


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## poodlegang

*klein/moyen poodles*

hi,
I don't know or let's say i am not sure what you intend for Klein/moyen. But I am from Europe and Klein/ moyens are now FCI registered as Medium size =over 35 cm -45 cm (over 13,8 inches-17,7)with a desirable height between 38 cm -41 cm(15 inches-16,1inches). They are not bred to standard poodles.


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## missmygirls

schnauzerpoodle said:


> My silver boy is also an oversized mini - 20 lbs and 17.5 inches tall. He's from Aery in TN. Experienced breeders can tell whether the puppy is going to go over the 15" limit. I highly recommend Richard, my breeder (Aery) and also Mimi, Beau's breeder (Noriko). I think Mimi has a litter of minis on the ground right now.
> 
> Aery Poodles Aery
> Noriko Poodles - Miniature Litter
> 
> Debbie (EagleHill) is a wonderful breeder too. Talk to all three of them. Let them know what you are looking for and learn more about their breeding plans. All 3 of them health test their breeding stock.




Thank you very much for all of the advise. I am traveling right now and will be on and off as time allows. Thank you for the PMs as well. I am very thankfull to you all. I think an oversized mini will be great.


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## outwest

poodlegang said:


> hi,
> I don't know or let's say i am not sure what you intend for Klein/moyen. But I am from Europe and Klein/ moyens are now FCI registered as Medium size =over 35 cm -45 cm (over 13,8 inches-17,7)with a desirable height between 38 cm -41 cm(15 inches-16,1inches). They are not bred to standard poodles.


In Europe the max size for a standard is 24 inches tall. Here they usually are average of 25 inches with many being larger. We like to supersize everything. Also, there an 18 inch dog IS a standard not just in name only. We don't have many poodles in that 18 inch range, which is a true medium size. Some people are breeding them by importing some of your dogs, but others are making them with crossing standard to minis and some with a little of all three methods (importing a small standard from Europe, for example).

In the US a poodle is a poodle and you can register them as a toy, mini or standard no matter who their parents were. It is frowned upon to crossbreed the sizes by most people even though the standards for the three sizes is exactly the same. The temperaments tend to be different, which is one reason it is frowned upon. 

Good luck finding your oversized mini. There are a bunch of those because it is hard to keep a dog under 15 inches tall.


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## pgr8dnlvr

I'm curious? You mention the sizes having "differernt temperments"? What are the generalities of these temperment differences between the sizes?

Rebecca


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## Panda

I have actually started looking for our next puppy and have decided on a Silver Klein. I have been doing a lot of research and stumbled across Karbit also however as we are in the UK it would be expensive to ship there so I found a wonderful breeder in Russia (who is actually where Karbit's silver Klein is from) who would be happy to sell a Klein to me. She only breeds Silver Kleins, she health tests and feeds raw I believe. Her Poodles are all in show coats and most are Champions in several European Countries.

Now to persuade the other half that we need puppy number two!


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## PoodleChic

OP. Did you get your dog? What did you end up getting? What is their temperament? Looks like I'll be getting an oversized mini in a couple weeks. I thought she was a small standard but I guess she is more of an oversized mini. The mom was a dream. Did so well with my kids. I haven't met the Dad. Should be between 16" and 20".


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## N2Mischief

Poodlechic, just a heads up, this thread is from 2012 and it looks like the OP is no longer very active.


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