# Debarked??



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I was noodling around on Puppyfind this evening and found this ad for a young adult particolor female: She is beautiful, housetrained, loyal, debarked and a bit excitable. 

Debarked? How in the world is a dog "debarked?"


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## Meo'smom (Jan 3, 2013)

They cut the vocal cords.:argh:They still make a sound...poor thing. I mean, if you can't have a dog that barks...don't have a dog. Guess if there was an ad, they REALLY shouldn't have gotten her in the first place! just breaks my heart.


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

Removing the vocal cords I'm guessing ... Agh i hate that


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

That was the only conclusion I could come to, but I've never heard of that. Where would someone find a vet to do that? Horrible!!


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

I found this video about it , it explains it pretty well.I'm sure debarking has its pros and cons though


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## Meo'smom (Jan 3, 2013)

I worked in vet clinics for a while back when i was younger and it was done mostly to small dogs because "they bark so much". Vets...not all vets, but money driven vets will do anything! I worked for a vet who cut the tail off a two year old lab because his owner was fed up of him making things fall over with it. I swear, the people in this world...


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

I knew a dog trainer years ago that had a dog that was debarked... Idk if she got her that way or had it done but the dog sounded like someone with laryngitis when she barked... Definitely didnt stop her but it just wasnt loud. It was a smooth coated collie.. Very well trained/behaved in every other respect but did bark a lot.


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

Iv'e heard of a surgery before but i only saw one dog that had the surgery done and the noise is awful


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

TrueColors said:


> I found this video about it , it explains it pretty well.I'm sure debarking has its pros and cons though
> 
> I suppose it might allow an owner to keep a dog that was a problem barker, but that seems way beyond "cosmetic" surgery, as a vet in the video termed it. Tail docking is cosmetic. This is akin to pulling all the teeth to address aggression.


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## kcp1227 (Jan 25, 2013)

There is a pit bull and a yorkie that come in to be groomed that are debarked. It is pathetic to listen to them and it breaks my heart. I can't believe vets are still doing this procedure. 


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

It looks so pitiful i watched some recommended videos of a golden retriever that got debarked and she was gasping for breath i find this a very extreme thing to do there are so many alternatives to get a dog to stop barking i find it cruel to take away a dogs way to communicate this must not be good for the dogs mental health either


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

There are breeders who do this to all of their adult dogs! Yes breeders! Not the good ones, of course. But there are lots of puppy millers and lots of marginal breeders who don't want their neighbors complaining about how many dogs they have. I think it is more common than you might think. 

My first spoo Sophie was a retired breeding bitch. I got her when she was 6. When I drove her home she threw up in the car. Then I took her to my back yard and she started coughing. So I called the breeder that I had just gotten her from (someone who had way too many dogs, and a few different breeds) and I told her that Sophie was sick. That's when the breeder told me that Sophie wasn't coughing. She was barking. She had been debarked. Her "normal" bark sounded like a cough. The breeder casually told me that she debarks all of her adult dogs! Yikes! My poor girl. And I think she endured a lot worse than debarking. She spent the first 6 years of her life in a crate in the basement, and I was not allowed to go into the basement to see the living conditions down there. This was a woman who repeatedly told me that she was a "reputable" breeder. The dogs did get out for exercise so they were not crated 24/7. I'm sure there are breeders out there that are even worse (puppy millers), but I would never want to support an operation like the one this woman was running. She was clearly breeding for the puppy market, and not giving her adult dogs a very good life.

My vet said that he would not debark a dog (unless there was a medical need to do so). But as someone else said, you can probably find a vet to do anything. I've heard that puppy millers do it themselves by putting hot pipes down the dog's throat. I hope that's not true.

Momma dogs (and poppa dogs) should not have to suffer so that we can have puppies. There has been a lot on the forum recently aboout how one should go about buying a new dog. If you are looking for a puppy, PLEASE think about the life that the breeder provides for the parent dogs. It is not always easy to see the things that they don't want you to see even if you go to their house/kennel. But you should be able to inspect all of the dog areas, not just see the mom with pups in the living room. Walk away if you are not permitted to see all of the dog areas. Be alert to things like that might tip you off to debarking or mistreatment. When I went to get Sophie, there were 2 beautiful poodles in a fenced run. They were jumping up against the chain link fence, rattling it and trying to get our attention. But they weren't barking. I wonder why not. It didn't occur to me then, but now I'd be very suspicious if a dog was trying to get attention but not barking.

I was at an AKC show recently and noticed some toy poodles outside in a fenced enclosure barking -- or should I say "coughing." They had been debarked and had the cough-like bark that I now know is the result of debarking. And these are dogs that were being shown AKC. It is not just the puppy millers.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

You'll see this a lot in shows, unfortunately. They'll debark dogs that are being shown because the handler doesn't want to deal with a dog barking constantly on the road.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Debarking is one of the cruelest acts. I have met a few dogs that have been debarked through the years. Sometimes, it makes the dog sound even worse! We used to have an old English sheepdog who was debarked come into our shop, and he would bark the entire time, but it sounded like a high pitch screech. There has only been one dog I have ever heard that didn't have an awful sound come from him and it was a westie who's bark sounded normal but very quite as if someone had turned the volume way down, it was actually kind of cute. 

I also have heard how the procedure is very high risk. Anytime I hear a debarked dog whose bark is worse then it was originally, I actually smile to myself and think how great karma can be.. Lol


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Illegal in the UK, thankfully. I already knew that it was common in US puppy mills, but show dogs??!!


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## Spooluvr (Feb 5, 2012)

"Debarked" this sounds like mutilation, I can't believe that this is legal. I've said it before there are no bad dogs just bad owners. Whether it starts from a bad breeder to bad socialization, training and so on. These poor animals need help.


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## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

This actually sickened me. There are so many people who shouldn't own dogs and people who do this are at the top of the list. They obviously don't have affection for the dog, they are too lazy or stupid to train it right.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Fluffyspoos said:


> You'll see this a lot in shows, unfortunately. They'll debark dogs that are being shown because the handler doesn't want to deal with a dog barking constantly on the road.


It is disappointing to me that the AKC does not do more to set minimal standards for animal welfare. They could easily prohibit dogs that have been debarked from being shown. But of course that would alienate those breeders that do routinely debark their dogs. The KC seems to take animal welfare seriously. The KC has recently instituted vet health checks that dogs must pass before winning at shows like Krufts. This is an effort to eliminate some of the health problems associated with breeding for extreme characteristics in some breeds (not so much of a problem for poodles, but a very serious problem for some breeds). I hope that the AKC will follow the KC's lead in this. Also I'd like to see the AKC do things like permit poodles with uncropped tails to be shown and set a limit on the number of litters that can be registered from one bitch. An organization like the AKC could do a lot to improve the health and welfare of purebred dogs.



fjm said:


> Illegal in the UK, thankfully. !


I love the UK. There seems to be a very thoughtful and well reasoned approach to animal welfare--a good balance between the extremist view that puts animal "rights" on a par with people, and the view that animals deserve no protection at all.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I don't know how I feel about debarking... However I avoid having to put my girls under if I don't have to. I can see why it's done at dog shows thats all you hear at shows sometimes is barking, and while owners and handlers do their best to keep the dogs quiet as soon as they walk away they start barking lol. Including mine! Quiet at home and fairly easily made quiet when not... At least when we are at home, she struggles to not bark at shows. Even with me there quieting her down. Soon as I walk away arrrooooh, bark bark! I could strangle her lol. Same if we went to a store on a cold day, soon as I get close to the car I can hear her.. One time I sat in my friends house and watched her... She as throwing her head back she was barking so loud, *sigh*. 
When we went cross countries I got a bark collar for her to not disturb other guests... Then I found out next time I should get a second one lol. We found Eve barking when she was by herself at the hotel, after picking up dinner *sigh*.
Anyway, debarking is expensive, and I too heard risky, but when you have multiple dogs it's hard to keep them quiet they rile each other up. It happens in my house lol, and it didn't take long after I got a second. It's even harder when your not there to quiet down the pack, and you don't want neighbors complaining. You cant put bark collars on some show dogs like poodles either.. I don't condone debarking when not done by a vet tho.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Debarking imo is very cruel and should be illegal. There is no reason to debark a dog... it's very easy to teach a dog not to be an excessive barker, regardless of the breed or size.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

I guess I will be the voice of dissent, since I do not consider debarking cruel. it is certantly less invasive than spaying or neutering, and like altering a dog is done to make people's lives a bit easer. And unlike docking is done under general anesthesia. Debarked dogs are not gasping for breath, they just have a much quiter vocalization. I find it more annoying, and would not debark a dog, but I also don't think that is is any worse then the routine things we do to our pets to make life easier for us (spay/neuter, docking/cropping). Ultimatly the dog still vocalizes, and it does not alter their behavior or personality - which is why it is typically better to focus on training. But you find that debarking occures most often with breeds that enjoy a lot more vocalization then a neighbor is willing to put up with, and it can make life a lot more enjoyable for all involved (as well as keep dogs in their homes when causal vocalization that does not irritate the owner, may irritate the neighbors).

I think for most poodles, debarking would be unnecissary, unless they had sever seperation anxiouty and sensitive neighbors. But there are many breeds that can and do bark for fun, and were bred to have loud voices that are not suitable for the city environment, and reducing the volume of their barking allows them to continue to participate in the recreational activity they enjoy without constant correction and upset neighbors.


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## Angl (Nov 9, 2012)

I had an Akita a long time ago that loved to bark at the Rottweiler next door. She debarked herself by blowing out her vocal cords. I even found blood in her water bowl. She liked to "sing" too, but she was horribly off key after that. Sweet dog. 


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## Abbe gails Mom (Nov 8, 2012)

Don't know any dogs that I would have debarked, do know some people that could use it, LOL.SO many people that could get a long better in life if they could just shut up.Yes, your right , that is not very nice of me, true but still not nice.MEEEEEOW!!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Debarking is illegal where I live. There was a concern that the restriction would result in a lot of dogs being turned over to rescue when it first went in. A lot of neighborhoods have mostly multi-family housing, so the concern was legitimate. Landlords and condo boards don't tolerate nuisance dogs. So far the concern seems not to have manifested into a real problem, fortunately.


One of my friends adopted a dog sight unseen from an out of state rescue. We were surprised to discover he was debarked when he came off the truck. He makes a really weird noise, almost like the chirp a car alarm makes as it arms itself after you lock the car door. I find this car alarm chirp just as annoying and almost as loud as a normal bark. It certainly doesn't quiet him enough to make him suitable as an apartment dog.


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## KidWhisperer (Apr 3, 2012)

Pluto, I think you bring a valid point to the table. While I would never ever consider devocalizing a dog to take away his voice (and the video brought tears to my eyes), I was equally as unhappy and unwilling to have my puppy dog sliced open and her reproductive parts taken away three months ago. The bottom line is owner responsibility...why do we want to circumvent that?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you raise a valid point, Pluto, and there are a number of countries in Europe that do consider neutering and spaying, and docking, cropping and declawing, unethical. Ear cropping was banned in the UK a hundred years ago; docking more recently (although it is still permitted for dogs bred for hunting, fewer and fewer vets will do it). Spaying does, arguably, have some health benefits for the dog; neutering of males much less so. In general, both are performed for the convenience of the owner, but also in an attempt to reduce the stray dog population (the "responsible owner" argument always strikes me as slightly odd, though - responsible owners are capable of keeping their dogs from breeding whether they are neutered or not - it is the iresponsible owners who let their dogs roam who most need persuading into it!).

But debarking, like declawing a cat, is purely for the owner's convenience. Yes, some breeds are known to be prone to excessive barking, just as some need a great deal of exercise, or mental stimulation, or grooming - surely these are things one should take into consideration before getting a dog? If people do not live somewhere suitable for a dog to live while expressing natural behaviours, then just possibly they should not keep a dog.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

KidWhisperer said:


> Pluto, I think you bring a valid point to the table. While I would never ever consider devocalizing a dog to take away his voice (and the video brought tears to my eyes), I was equally as unhappy and unwilling to have my puppy dog sliced open and her reproductive parts taken away three months ago. The bottom line is owner responsibility...why do we want to circumvent that?


I suppose, if an owner were facing the choice between debarking a dog or rehoming it, surgery could be justified, if there was no good option to rehome. (Not by me--I'm just playing devil's advocate here.) At least for spaying and neutering, there are legitimate health concerns, such as cancer, that are lessened by those surgeries and can't be addressed by owner responsibility otherwise.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I was reading this old post and then, this morning, happened to see this adorable little black female toy poodle, who is now 7. The owner said she got Sasha when she was 2, and she looked very well put together, great temperament, etc. and she couldn't remember where she got her originally. Then as we talked, it is a breeder in California I had heard of before on PF but I do not think she still shows. Anyway, Sasha was debarked. The woman did not seem to have all the facts, but she was 2 when she got her, the dog had been bred before, etc., but from the conversation, it sounds like the breeder sort of "sold her up." I guess I had never met a dog debarked before, and I do think it is cruel.

She then asked, "is Sunny debarked?" since he was so chill and calm and quiet. I told her, no, he is not a barker.


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

When once upon a time I went to a collie breed akc show almost all the dogs there were debarked. You could still hear them they were just very hoarse sounding. Collies are very vocal.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm sort of on the fence by it. See, I'm "sort of"...I'm even on the fence as to whether I'm on the fence. :alberteinstein:

For us to perceive it as cruel may be anthropomorphizing a little bit too much because maybe the dog is not mentally or emotionally affected by it as we would be if it were us who got the de-"barking" done. They still make some sound and maybe to them, that IS sufficient barking. How can we know? 

Now, I have heard of scar tissue complications and so presuming it's an unnecessary surgery, that _IS_ terrible and could really cause problems...as opposed to tail docking or ear cropping. (hardly ever any life threatening complications other than infection, which is very rare.) 

So, are dogs that are de-barked (without any physical complications) really emotionally damaged? Do they show this in any way? 

If a person can not or will not find out how to train their dog to lessen their barking, then the dog may be given up to a shelter and maybe never adopted. The dog might be such a nuisance that the owner is forced to give it up. What happens to the dog then? The dog might suffer the angry wrath of an owner or neighbor who punishes the dog unfairly for incessant barking due to no training. People tolerate behavior over and over again and then they reach their tolerance level and mistreat the dog. I see it all the time.

So, how much worse really....is debarking a really problematic dog? Sure, I say, whatever happened to the concept of training a dog or supervising more. But in the real world....

So, I see it both ways...possibly it _does_ affect the dog in a bad way emotionally. I just don't know. But I have a suspicion that it might bother us more because of our empathy and how we'd feel if it happened to us. It would suck. I'm mean just look at me....how long is this post? If I like to type a lot, then you know I like to talk a lot. Consider yourselves lucky that you didn't have to _hear _all this, although, I really have a very nice voice. LOL .:act-up:


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

I agree with Pluto. I have a rescue dog who, in the hands of the vast majority of other homes, would have been euthanized for his uncontrollable behaviors. One item on the laundry list of his issues is uncontrollable barking associated with separation anxiety. We tried everything. At one point his neck was bloody and raw from being shocked hundreds of thousands of times a day by his bark collar; his anxiety and need to bark was stronger than the highest setting. I moved three times to accommodate this dog; we had warnings from Animal Control for nuisance barking (and I do not in any way fault my neighbors for calling, he was an absolute menace and I would have done the same!) and I literally changed my lifestyle to meet his needs.
Multiple times I seriously considered having him debarked. The truth is, the dog does not know they can or cannot bark. It is not emotionally cruel, they do not feel like less of a dog or like they cannot communicate with other dogs. All they know is that they went into a vet clinic, they went to sleep, they woke up, they had to take some pills for a while and their throat was itchy, and now mom and dad doesn't yell at them all the time any more.
To me that surgery and its recovery is FAR less cruel than euthanizing an otherwise excellent (or workable) dog, subjecting the poor creature to bark collars, abusive training, or other aversive therapies, or sending the unfortunate pup to home after home that is not equipped to handle their needs.

My opinion certainly is not mainstream, but I consider it fair. I have one of those problem dogs and I have seriously considered debarking. If I had not been financially and physically able to move to an area where he can bark his little head off while I'm gone I probably would have gone as far as finding a vet willing to do it. My practice will not do it, and never has. Debarking should not be a fashion statement or a convenience move. It should be a way to save a life or prevent otherwise necessary means like shock collars.

My gripes with the surgery are all about the owners who get them done and with the long-term functionality. I think it is for extreme cases. I know that I anthropomorphize my dogs, I'm guilty of it. I like my problem dog's bark when it's from excitement at a lure coursing event or if I feel threatened. And debarking is not frequently a 'permanent' solution. As the dog continues to bark the snipped cords can thicken and allow the dog to rasp again, even bark again. Some dogs take years, some take months. I have shown with a gentleman who has Finnish Spitz, and he has all of his debarked and two of them were almost entirely back to full vocalization after nine months.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

I hate the idea of debarking, but you make some very rational points and distinctions. I think we could all agree that debarking should not be a normal procedure.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree it should not be considered a routine procedure. the problem is that the alternative is sometimes worse. i think house training issues and barking are two of the main reasons dogs are turned in to institutions like the humane society, most of which are not, in fact, "no kill" shelters. it's ugly and the choice is ugly. in the end, it doesn't say a lot positive about the human race that we breed and then easily discard companion animals that turn out to be "inconvenient."


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## Servicepoodlemomma (Jun 22, 2013)

patk said:


> i agree it should not be considered a routine procedure. the problem is that the alternative is sometimes worse. i think house training issues and barking are two of the main reasons dogs are turned in to institutions like the humane society, most of which are not, in fact, "no kill" shelters. it's ugly and the choice is ugly. in the end, it doesn't say a lot positive about the human race that we breed and then easily discard companion animals that turn out to be "inconvenient."


This is a good way to put it. Would I ever debark one of my dogs? Not in a million years! I grew up with Rough collies - and Collies like to talk! Dogs need their voice! Proper training, and getting a professional trainer involved if needed, can usually curb unwanted barking.

That said - just like I hate the idea of a cat being declawed and have seen long term issues from both debarked dogs and declawed cats - but if it's a matter of the dog ending up in the shelter or getting debarked, I'd rather see it stay in it's home!


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

We met a lab/hound mix at the dog park yesterday and the owner insisted that the pathetic "wooh wooh" sound the dog made continuously was the hound in him.... 

I've seen hounds - I've heard hounds - they are not dogs to make little wheezy noises. A couple of us think the dog was debarked, despite what the owner claimed... She had adopted him recently, and he was young 6-7 mos, so she probably did not know, and patiently explained to us that hounds make this quiet imitation of a bark constantly - it's what they do - part of the breed... She really did not seem to know that dogs could even be debarked by cutting the vocal cords...

sad to see it in real life, with a dog that's trying to be himself (a barking hound). I've certainly seen it with other dogs - but never one who has such a noisy natural tendency...


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Old threads resurfacing again?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Old threads resurfacing again?


Yeah, but who ever heard of a topic that in all of history was only discussed once? LOL. I, for one don't mind old topics coming up. Some, I haven't participated in before since I'm fairly new to the forum. And even if I had, conversations do continue sometimes where they left off. And it can be fun for some, boring for others. But of course, we get to choose which threads to read.

I was so embarrassed the other day when I was co-conspirator in resurrecting an old thread. But now that I think about it, why not? lol.:act-up:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

better than starting a new thread and then finding out it's all been said before - which i'm pretty sure i'll end up doing at some point.:argh:


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