# Blue/silver or grey?



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

Hello everyone. Maybe you could help me? My dog gave birth 3 weeks ago. She had black pups. The stud is stud dark brown and my dog is brown. Is there a possibility that the black pups may turn into blue/silver or grey? These pups have tiny bits of white hair on their paws... Im looking forward to read your comments and thank you. Happy New Year everyone


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Blue/cafe/silver is not a recessive gene. One parent would have to have to be blue/cafe/silver for your pups to be. If one of the parents is young, under age 3 or so, then perhaps the parent is a cafe that hasn't finished clearing. Otherwise, I think it more likely you are seeing minimally expressed white spotting.

What I find very interesting is that you got a litter of blacks out of two browns! Do the parents have liver colored noses or black noses?


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Pictures of the parents would help, though dark brown poodles at birth almost look black just with a liver nose


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Blue/cafe/silver is not a recessive gene. One parent would have to have to be blue/cafe/silver for your pups to be. If one of the parents is young, under age 3 or so, then perhaps the parent is a cafe that hasn't finished clearing. Otherwise, I think it more likely you are seeing minimally expressed white spotting.
> 
> What I find very interesting is that you got a litter of blacks out of two browns! Do the parents have liver colored noses or black noses?


Thank you for the response. The mother is just over 2 yrs old. And I guess she has cafe au lait coat under the brown coat. Sorry not sure if there such a thing. The the hair is brown then cafe underneath. The puppies has black noses. The mum has liver colored nose not sure about the stud.


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

Heres the stud


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

The Stud looks blue to me not brown


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

twyla said:


> Pictures of the parents would help, though dark brown poodles at birth almost look black just with a liver nose





cowpony said:


> Blue/cafe/silver is not a recessive gene. One parent would have to have to be blue/cafe/silver for your pups to be. If one of the parents is young, under age 3 or so, then perhaps the parent is a cafe that hasn't finished clearing. Otherwise, I think it more likely you are seeing minimally expressed white spotting.
> 
> What I find very interesting is that you got a litter of blacks out of two browns! Do the parents have liver colored noses or black noses?





twyla said:


> The Stud looks blue to me not brown


Here's the mum. Top coat brown and cafe under. Is there a possibility the black pups turn into blue as well or silver perhaps?


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

twyla said:


> The Stud looks blue to me not brown





happypoodles said:


> Here's the mum. Top coat brown and cafe under. Is there a possibility the black pups turn into blue as well or silver perhaps?


Here are the parents sorry had to send this type ofphoto


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m going to move this thread over to Poodle Breeding


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

twyla said:


> The Stud looks blue to me not brown


I agree. Brown dogs always have a brown nose, so this stud can't be brown. Blue dogs can have a rusty iron color while they are changing from black to blue. The shaved face looks lighter than the rest of the hair, which is typical for blues and silvers as they clear. (Of course, camera settings could make the dog look different in pictures than in real life.)


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I agree. Brown dogs always have a brown nose, so this stud can't be brown. Blue dogs can have a rusty iron color while they are changing from black to blue. The shaved face looks lighter than the rest of the hair, which is typical for blues and silvers as they clear. (Of course, camera settings could make the dog look different in pictures than in real life.)


Thank you all for your responses this will help me choose a pup to stay with me. My dog have 3 black and 3 brown. I am hoping one of those black ones would turn into blue, grey or silver. I also have a black toy poodle. Hence I am hoping for the colors I have mentioned.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

happypoodles said:


> Thank you all for your responses this will help me choose a pup to stay with me. My dog have 3 black and 3 brown. I am hoping one of those black ones would turn into blue, grey or silver. I also have a black toy poodle. Hence I am hoping for the colors I have mentioned.


 It doesn't look like the dam is cafe, so I don't think any of the pups will be silver. Either cafe at lait or blue pups are possibilities, however.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Happy New Year to you!

This is my go to site for color breeding questions. I expect it to corroborate what cowpony and Twyla have said. Your dilemma is not knowing with certainty the dam and sire truly are. Whoever bred them should know what colors are in their lines.






COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES


ARPEGGIO Poodles information on color breeding in poodles



arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com






and this

Select a poodle from the left column that represents the color of one of the dogs being bred , and then select a poodle from the top column that represents the color of the other dog being bred , follow the two till they meet and this will give you probable colors of the puppies produced .









* Poodle Color Inheritance*

There are a lot of opportunities in color mixing, but it requires a solid knowledge about the mechanisms of heredity. You can avoid color related risks by breeding only the same color poodles, but in the long run bigger gene pools will help reduce the problems of e.g. inheritable diseases. By using color mixing, we can maintain a healthy base of recessive colored poodles (white, apricot, brown, red). Until the year 2006 color mixing with poodles was subject to license in Finland.

Let’s start with the basic terminology:

*Genotype*: Describes the dog’s heredity.

*Dominant:* The ruling attribute in the phenotype. E.g. black color in a poodle.

*Recessive:* Yielding attribute, that appears when there is no dominant gene present. In other words, the recessive attribute shows, when the dog has two recessive elements. E.g. apricot color in a poodle.

*Genes:* Inheritable attributes that are located in the chromosomes. Dogs have 39 pairs that make 78 chromosomes. Half of these come from the male and the other half from the female, because gametes have only 39 chromosomes.

Inheritance could simply be described with the following example:
A black female poodle’s genotype is Bb (B = black, b = brown, black being the dominant and brown being the recessive gene)
If this poodle is paired with a black male poodle, could their puppy be a brown one? Well, it depends on the male’s genotype:
If the male is BB: possible puppy variations are BB or Bb, meaning only black puppies.
If the male is Bb: possible puppy variations are BB, Bb and bb, the last option being a brown puppy.
Recessive genes bring complications to breeding, because they can be hidden against the odds for multiple generations. Even if your black poodle has black parents and grandparents, you can’t be sure if the recessive gene will pop out in the brood eventually.
The color of the dog is determined by 11 gene pairs that are not connected to each other. Mixing colors is not as simple as in the previous example, because we need to add more variables.

Let’s make a bit more complicated example:
B (black pigment)
b (brown pigment)
E (color in the whole dog)
e (color only in the muzzle)

Now let’s assume that we are breeding two dogs:
Apricot BBee (Apricot poodle, that has black pigment only in its muzzle)

Brown bbEE (Poodle that has brown everywhere)
Now if the puppy would be BbEe, it will be a completely black poodle with the recessive attributes from its parents.

This means that we need to take into account a lot of different things in breeding, not just the color. Many breeders don’t want to try color mixing, because you can’t never really remove the risk of unwanted combinations completely (especially when you take into account the so called modifying genes!). But breeding the same recessive colored poodles with each other will eventually lead to the diminution of the gene pool, not to mention the loss of other wanted attributes (e.g. health issues with the eyes, muzzles or hips). Controlled color mixing could be the only way to get a healthier base.
One of the most interesting poodle colors is red, that was accepted as an independent color as late as 2007. The color is still a somewhat mystery, but it’s assumed to be originated from red cockers. It’s believed to be caused by a separate gene called the “Rufus” gene. Red is dominant to apricot, so two red poodles can have apricot puppies, but not the other way around.

There is a lot of complicated stuff behind color mixing, but it has become more popular than ever. Recessive colored poodles are becoming more common, so breeders are nowadays required to know a lot about inheritance mechanisms. Things are luckily becoming easier, as you can now purchase a DNA test for your poodle.

One of the companies that offer DNA testing is VetGen, which has developed a chart about poodle color mixing:
_If your dog is black the possible genotypes are: BBEE, BBEe, BbEE, BbEe.
If your dog is brown, the possible genotypes are: bbEE, bbEe.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a black nose, possible genotypes are: BBee, Bbee.
If your dog is cream, white, apricot or red with a brown nose, your dog's genotype is bbee._
In the picture below cream represents cream, white, apricot and red.













 More on Genetics


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

cowpony said:


> It doesn't look like the dam is cafe, so I don't think any of the pups will be silver. Either cafe at lait or blue pups are possibilities, however.





cowpony said:


> It doesn't look like the dam is cafe, so I don't think any of the pups will be silver. Either cafe at lait or blue pups are possibilities, however.


Hi this is mum's hair


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

happypoodles said:


> Hi this is mum's hair


It's hard to say. Brown tends to fade even if it's not cafe. Does mum have light streaks under her ears? Does her muzzle look lighter than the rest of the dog when to shave it?

You should be able to get a better idea with the puppies when you shave their muzzles at 6 or 7 weeks. The ones with the blue/cafe/silver gene should have lighter faces by that age. It might not be noticeable when they are by themselves, but you should see it when you compare them to a black or brown.


----------



## happypoodles (May 21, 2020)

cowpony said:


> It's hard to say. Brown tends to fade even if it's not cafe. Does mum have light streaks under her ears? Does her muzzle look lighter than the rest of the dog when to shave it?
> 
> You should be able to get a better idea with the puppies when you shave their muzzles at 6 or 7 weeks. The ones with the blue/cafe/silver gene should have lighter faces by that age. It might not be noticeable when they are by themselves, but you should see it when you compare them to a black or brown.


Thank you so much for your suggestions. I will give you an update. Happy New year to you


----------

