# Severe separation anxiety



## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

Our 12 week old toy poodle is suffering from what seems to be pretty extreme separation anxiety. He essentially wants to be with us - and able to touch us - every minute of every day. If he is separated - even if we're, say, sat on the bed (with feet up) and he's on the floor, he goes absolutely bananas. He is always under our feet, and even when he's in his car seat, he cries and barks until I put my hand in the seat with him (I have stopped doing this now, and am giving him occasional treats to take his mind off it - too early to say if it is working).

Crating doesn't work - he howls until you let him out. We have a penned area for him beneath our stairs, and he has a bed, water, toys etc in there. But the minute the door is shut, he cries, barks, howls and throws himself against the walls of the pen. He will eventually stop (after perhaps 20 minutes) and lay dejectedly on his bed until we open the door, as long as one of us is in his line of sight. If we leave the room, he doesn't stop barking and being crazy until we get back. I leave him in there for at least some time every day whilst I shower and do things around the house (randomly from 5 to 30 minutes). He doesn't stop barking the whole time, and always upsets his water bowl.

We have him sleeping on our bed, by our feet, because despite weeks of trying to get him accustomed to sleeping in a penned area in the bedroom, he would hate it and make a fuss when we went to bed (sometimes for 30 solid minutes of barking before he gave up), and wake us up continually through the night. Were we premature to give up with this after 3 weeks of getting no sleep, with no sign of improvement?

It's difficult, because I feel we read up a lot before getting him and tried our best to follow the advice given, but he doesn't seem to improve as time goes on. He's also an aggressive little so-and-so at times, and the advice I've read hasn't helped much - he seems not to have read the same guides as us!

Any advice on dealing with this would be much appreciated - at present, I am pretty much a hostage in my own home. I can't go out because he would go spare and possibly hurt himself and, at least, annoy the heck out of the neighbours. 

I feel guilty for using this forum only to ask questions - I wish I could contribute something more, but between looking after the puppy and trying to get some work done, and with my limited experience (and, by the looks of it, lack of natural ability), I don't feel I can contribute much at the moment!

Thanks.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

What was his background, and how old was he when you got him? 12 weeks is very young - it is not unusual for pups to want to be safely with other dogs or people at that age. I would try very, very short "alone" times - coming and going every few seconds, and building up to being out of sight for half a minute, then a whole minute. Be calm and matter of fact, dropping a treat or a chew to the pup in passing. Aim to reward calm, relaxed behaviour, but don't wait so long for a peaceful moment that he gets really het up. I would rather let a pup out and be really, really boring than leave it to scream and work itself into a frenzy waiting for a calm moment to reward! 

With mine, I avoided leaving them until they reached the stage that they actively wanted more independence, at around 7 - 9 months. I wasn't a prisoner, but I did make sure there was someone with them. At that age it became much, much easier - they were older, more confident, and it became perfectly natural for them to be alone. Not the received wisdom, which insists pups need to be taught to be alone from a very young age, but very like one's experience with young children. No one would expect a baby or toddler to be content to be left alone, while for a teenager it becomes an exciting adventure!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

One rule to never break : he can't get out of the crate or any enclosed area you put him in if he's screaming, barking, or not being quiet. He needs to learn that in order to come out, he needs to be quiet and settled.

Now, you need to undo what you have done by letting him come out while screaming. That means when you put him in his crate, he needs to have peed, pood, drank, eaten if need be. No water in there for a short time. You put him in the crate, close the door, say quiet and leave. Stay out of sight. The first time he might scream for 2-3 hours, or more. Just say " quiet " once in a while but never go see him. The second time it might be just 1 hour. The third, 5 minutes of screaming. It only works if your consistent 100% of the time. If you're in a situation where the screaming can't happen, don't put him in there.

Also make sure there is no way he can hurt himself with anything, and that the neighbors won't complaint !


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

Thanks for the advice. I might not have been clear on one thing, and that is that we never let him out when he's barking. To get out, he has to have been quiet for a little bit. If he shows no signs of ever being quiet, we go up to the pen, and make him sit quietly and perform one of his little tricks before he can come out, in the hope that this doesn't create an association between barking and getting his own way.

He came to us from the breeder at 8 weeks, and he was part of a small litter of three. I'm not entirely convinced that he learned what he needed to from his mother and siblings.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Bertie said:


> If he shows no signs of ever being quiet, we go up to the pen, and make him sit quietly and perform one of his little tricks before he can come out, in the hope that this doesn't create an association between barking and getting his own way.


You need to correct this part. You are rewarding bad behavior with attention. He needs to fully understand that he can never, ever come out if he's not quiet.

This association has been created and will make it harder, but if you stick to the plan it should work.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Excellent advice from fjm.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I love this trainer in the video. I think it's important to try to help condition your pup to being left alone and try not to make him endure this extreme anxiety. When it's really over the top, I think it becomes a medical situation and is not helping anything to let him go like that for so very long. He's not any longer absorbing any lesson when his adrenalin and other stress hormones, blood pressure, heart rate, respiration is off the charts. It's one thing when they complain and scream for 5 or 10 minutes, then settle down but another when it goes on and on like you're describing. This is not good to let him be this stressed out for this long. imo.

I'd try to do some of these things to help puppy out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGxhcb-itO4


Some other good resources:

Separation Anxiety - Kind Method Dog Training (Reference Library)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

being a hostage in your own home is no fun. so what have you done to make the crate itself a place of refuge? like many at pf, i found that my dogs would go into their crates of their own volition to take naps, get away from each other (or "the humans") when they needed a break, etc. 

things people do to make the crate a good place: feed their dogs in the crate. make sure there are treat filled kongs. sit on the floor next to the crate (with dog in it) and read, listen to music, etc. i would also place a used (by you) tshirt in the crate to help give comfort and reassure the little one that he really isn't alone.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Separation anxiety is not a fun thing to deal with. At this point when your dog is barking/screaming in it's crate it is not being "bad" and waiting until it calms down is just not going to work. Your dog is In a HIGHLY stressed state and no reasoning or disciplinary action is going to help that.
There is lots of good information out there on SA and it is treatable but basically you will need to start at square one and start conditioning your dog to be comfortable in being left alone, starting in very very small increments. 
There is a book by Patricia McConnell called "I'll Be Home Soon" that gives some great advice on how to deal with Separation Anxiety.... it is a very short "easy read" book. Another great trainer/behaviourist is Turid Rugaas, she too gives great insight on SA and how to deal with it.
Good luck!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with fjm, but would add that if you need to help reduce the anxiety to be able to make progress with the problems you could try Rescue Remedy or similar, or a DAP collar or diffuser. These will take the edge off so you can make a connection and get progress out of the training you do.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope one of the techniques suggested works. My dog has just discovered an irritating "eh eh eh" whine when he wants something and it isn't happening. I ignore him which is hard because that sound really gets on my nerves, otherwise he would use it all the time. Let us know how it goes. Fingers crossed for some peace in your household.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> I hope one of the techniques suggested works. My dog has just discovered an irritating "eh eh eh" whine when he wants something and it isn't happening. I ignore him which is hard because that sound really gets on my nerves, otherwise he would use it all the time. Let us know how it goes. Fingers crossed for some peace in your household.



Oh Timi did that whine from day one, but thankfully with patience building exercises and maturity it has dissipated 90-95 percent now.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just curious, bertie, i see your pup is twelve weeks old and you have had him for a month. so in that time he has developed this behavior or he was like that from day one or showed signs of the behavior when he came to you?


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

patk said:


> being a hostage in your own home is no fun. so what have you done to make the crate itself a place of refuge? like many at pf, i found that my dogs would go into their crates of their own volition to take naps, get away from each other (or "the humans") when they needed a break, etc.
> 
> things people do to make the crate a good place: feed their dogs in the crate. make sure there are treat filled kongs. sit on the floor next to the crate (with dog in it) and read, listen to music, etc. i would also place a used (by you) tshirt in the crate to help give comfort and reassure the little one that he really isn't alone.


Thanks - these are all good tips, however, we do all of these things, right down to the kongs and items of clothing, and sitting right next to it! He just doesn't like being apart from us at all. Not ever.


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

patk said:


> just curious, bertie, i see your pup is twelve weeks old and you have had him for a month. so in that time he has developed this behavior or he was like that from day one or showed signs of the behavior when he came to you?


He's been like this since day one. He's always wanted to be at our feet, and he's not happy unless he is. He's OK if he's with my mum and dad, but he met them on day two and he loves them to bits - and of course, he has to be with them all of the time when they're taking care of him.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

He is still a baby. Just keep consistently doing it the right way, and he will respond eventually. Falter and give in to the crying and you will regret it for the next 15 years.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

It is normal for puppies to cry, whine, complain and carry on because they don't want to be alone. With normal separation anxiety where the dog cries and whines, barks etc, I would do the ignore thing...absolutely and have...but only up to a point. When we're talking _severe_, full blown separation anxiety, where the dog is salivating, panting wildly, screaming, throwing himself against the sides of his pen, absolutely panicking to where he can hurt himself, no....ignoring in my opinion is not going to help the situation, it's inhumane and I couldn't do it. The dog needs some intervention. Now, I don't know if your dog's situation would be called severe or not. But I'd recommend getting a behaviorist to evaluate if nothing else works... and a vet involved. Maybe a mild sedative or some other thing might be advised.

Here is some more good reading material....something that might give you some more insight as well as tips.

This gal is exceptional and has lots of good articles: (don't miss the additional pages after the first one)

The Dog Trainer : Separation Anxiety in Dogs :: Quick and Dirty Tips ?


Another good article: 

Living With Dogs Who Suffer From Severe Separation Anxiety - Whole Dog Journal Article


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

bertie, there could have been cues sent by your family that unwittingly rewarded the glued to you behavior. once a dog figures out that something works to his/her advantage, it can be very difficult to extinguish the behavior. i'm thinking of all the pf members who have talked about their counter-surfing dogs and not being able to cure it. the (however inadvertent) reward the dog received for the behavior was too powerful.

i don't think anyone here can say for sure, but i do note that you said your puppy sleeps at your feet at night. it may be a chicken or egg question at this point as to whether the glued to you behavior was actually reinforced. i also note that you said as long as he can see you, he will give up and lie in his crate. my personal preference is to have the kennel where i am - whether in the living room or in the bedroom, to help build the sense of the kennel as reassuring and safe. 

that being said, he is a puppy and you have a long life together ahead of you. i wouldn't hesitate to find a veterinary behaviorist to help you determine the best way to handle this. it could be a matter of greater adherence to a set of rules for yourself. it could be a matter that requires medication. it could be something else in terms of training techniques, etc. he is so young, now is the time to do right by him and yourself.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Really - we are suggesting spending thousands of dollars on a Veterinary behaviorist and medicating a TWELVE WEEK old puppy?!
This is no different than the first month or two of every puppy that I have ever had, most definitely including Timi!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

some dogs need to be on medication. one could try rescue remedy. it works for some. never worked for my dog. any other medication probably requires a prescription. if you're going to a vet anyway, may as well find one qualified to treat behavioral issues. not all are. and yes he's a 12 week old puppy, but op claims this behavior has existed from day one and has gotten worse. since she says she is doing what others have suggested and nothing is helping, it seems counterproductive to insist she just suck it up.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I totally disagree that medication is the answer here .....in a puppy that's only twelve weeks old.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

OP, it would be a good idea to have a session or two with an experienced positive reinforcement trainer as it can be helpful to have outside eyes to pick-up the very subtle mis-steps that you may be making - I am an experienced poodle mom, and although I am good on the home acclimation and housebreaking, I always take at least a couple of classes with a new puppy to get that outside observer, and every time they catch a couple of little things that make me want to slap my head! It is so much easier for a trained eye to catch these things from the outside then when you are the one involved.
But I think that you have a perfectly normal puppy, and it would be jumping the gun to think of behaviorists and medication. Frankly I am surprised that anyone here would suggest that to you for a 12 week old puppy - I guess that we have been hearing so much from folks with older puppies/adolescents with behavior problems lately that the group is getting a bit overly reactive to the issues.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I didn't suggest anti anxiety prescription drugs. I suggested rescue remedy as a way to get some focus while crate training. I would only give a puppy that small one drop about 15-20 minutes before working on the crate stay. It will wear off in about half an hour. I also suggested a DAP diffuser. I have a friend whose dogs live with DAP collars and diffusers their whole lives with only the benefit of a steadier personality.

The OP can try what ever she wants to or leave any suggestion she wants to on the table of course. I wasn't being reactive at all.


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

Thanks for all of the advice, it's helpful to know that at least some people think he's normal! It's just very overwhelming at the moment - not being able to leave him for a second, dealing with his regular bouts of aggression, his mortal terror of other dogs... it seems like nothing is going right! At least he's healthy though.

It may sound as though we are idiots who've been doing everything wrong - I am convinced that's not the case, we've done our research and have tried to implement a decent system of rules, training and socialisation from day one. Of course, we will have made mistakes (we've never had a dog before) and I'm sure we're still making some of them. I'm seeing the vet tomorrow, so I'll ask her what she thinks (of course, he's always on absolute best behavior when he sees her!).


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I don't think you are idiots at all. Just working through a difficult stage with a very young puppy. Is he getting enough exercise? Buck is SO much more relaxed when he's tuckered out. Alternatively, puppies need a lot of rest. Are his anxieties preventing that? Hope the vet has some more ideas.


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

He gets quite a bit of exercise, a couple of short walks each day and plenty of energetic play with us. He sleeps a lot too, but it's always by our feet, so when we move he is up like a shot to follow us. It does concern me that this interferes with his sleep.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have to smile - I have two adult dogs asleep at my feet at this very moment, and both of them will be up and following me if I move! After all, it might mean food, or a walk, or a game, or something else unmissable...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think a veterinarian is the_ only _one qualified to hand out medical advice. That's why I suggest seeing a veterinarian and not take medical advice off a dog forum whether to medicate or whether not to. If you describe your puppy's level of anxiety, what he is doing exactly, what you are seeing, your vet will be a good resource to get some advice from. And secondly, since you've been trying for nearly a month with no change, that's why I suggested a reputable PR trainer or behaviorist to see what the dog is doing. If it's normal, weah, weah, weah complaining...I would say yes, you must be consistent and not cave. If the puppy is in a long term state of panic; salivating, panting uncontrollably, throwing himself against the sides of the pen or walls until you fear he will injure himself, then yes, get some professional help. Otherwise, for milder, normal, new - puppy separation anxiety, read, watch videos, see what the professional experts say and follow their advice consistently.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I think you have a more than average difficult puppy. I am sure you made some mistakes, but your puppy seems very dependent. Not all puppies are like that. Hang in there, all puppies get better, and yours will too.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I didn't suggest anti anxiety prescription drugs. I suggested rescue remedy as a way to get some focus while crate training. I would only give a puppy that small one drop about 15-20 minutes before working on the crate stay. It will wear off in about half an hour. I also suggested a DAP diffuser. I have a friend whose dogs live with DAP collars and diffusers their whole lives with only the benefit of a steadier personality.
> 
> The OP can try what ever she wants to or leave any suggestion she wants to on the table of course. I wasn't being reactive at all.



Since you didn't suggest what I was speaking of, why would you think I was speaking of you silly


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Bertie said:


> Thanks for all of the advice, it's helpful to know that at least some people think he's normal! It's just very overwhelming at the moment - not being able to leave him for a second, dealing with his regular bouts of aggression, his mortal terror of other dogs... it seems like nothing is going right! At least he's healthy though.
> 
> 
> 
> It may sound as though we are idiots who've been doing everything wrong - I am convinced that's not the case, we've done our research and have tried to implement a decent system of rules, training and socialisation from day one. Of course, we will have made mistakes (we've never had a dog before) and I'm sure we're still making some of them. I'm seeing the vet tomorrow, so I'll ask her what she thinks (of course, he's always on absolute best behavior when he sees her!).



The first few months with Timi I must have mumbled "I am too old for this, never again" hundreds of times - I was utterly exhausted from lack of sleep and continuous attention to the puppy. And I had two older dogs who were a huge help in teaching her manners, burning off some energy, and taking some of her focus off of me. And she was 14 weeks when I got her - 6 weeks older than what you have been dealing with! But today, at a year and a half old, she is about as perfect a poodle as anyone could want, so that is why I say sticking with it pays off.
But I do want to say that I missed the word "aggression" in your first post - and I am not even going to ask you what you mean by that. I suspect that it is normal "shark puppy" play fighting that we all have to work through with the little ones, but since to you it feels like "aggression", I think that you should definitely have a couple of sessions with a trainer who can both asses it, and teach you how to perfectly respond to it in a well timed way!


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## MaceeChocKisses (May 19, 2015)

I don't have a lot of experience with training... But I had a difficult time with Cocoa the first couple of weeks... I didn't think we would make it... But patience and this PF has been a life saver... We still have times when she gets upset about crating but she settles down quicker now... I think she understands that I will eventually let her out even though she doesn't particularly like being in there... I first tried the Ian Dunbar set up until she learned to get out and my fear of her hurting herself coupled with many accidents around the house gave me the power to endure her barking while crating... I suggest you cover the crate give plenty of treats I'm sure you've tried this I haven't read the entire thread but take baby steps... It worked for me Good Luck!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I must say, with all the negatives I hear from people who think it's such a terrible mistake to get two puppies at the same time that are the same age, what a dumb thing I did...I will say, my two toy Poodles never made a peep from day one when sleeping at night or when I left them during the day for an errand or such. :aetsch: That was one of several advantages. Maurice did make a peep when I'd take Matisse away but he got right over it in 5 minutes. Of course, there were other things that made for more work...not to minimize those. More work, but not the SA. 

Disclaimer: Definitely NOT suggesting the OP gets another puppy. It _is_ more work. But dogs aren't new to me. I've had them and raised puppies for a long time.

Don't worry Bertie, things will settle down eventually. Hang in there.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I must say, with all the negatives I hear from people who think it's such a terrible mistake to get two puppies at the same time that are the same age, what a dumb thing I did...I will say, my two toy Poodles never made a peep from day one when sleeping at night or when I left them during the day for an errand or such. :aetsch: That was one of several advantages. Maurice did make a peep when I'd take Matisse away but he got right over it in 5 minutes. Of course, there were other things that made for more work...not to minimize those. More work, but not the SA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, I never thought that getting two puppies at once doesn't have positives - it sure does have positives. 
It can also be done well as you did, it is simply, as I am sure you will agree, not something for the average pet owner to undertake, as very frequently they will fail royally at it!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

bertie, just some things to consider: 

1) as far as i know, no one who has spoken up thus far is a clinically trained behaviorist and we can all opine, but no one is actually in your shoes. two points in your narrative that concerned me - the fact that this behavior has not changed in the month since you first got your dog and that it involves the dog hurling himself against the walls of his crate. now you have added that your boy is afraid of all other dogs and is also aggressive. (do you mean the nipping stage dogs go through or somethings else?) i do not recall other pf members going through crate training mentioning their pups throwing themselves at their crate walls when left alone and continuing to do so for the whole month they've been with their new owner. dogs may continue to bark and howl (which often turns out to be the reason people end up not keeping their dogs if they have complaining neighbors), but they don't usually continue behavior that could actually cause themselves pain. 

2) real separation anxiety is a clinical condition and medication is prescribed if needed. if you think it's an issue, that needs to be confirmed by someone with expertise in diagnosing and treating it. as far as i am concerned, this is not much different from prescribing medication for an adhd child; the purpose of the medication is to help the child function and survive in society. i would not reject out of hand having to do the same for my dog if it were needed, nor would i assume it is not needed, given the behavior you have described. 

3) a vet who does not diagnose properly could also prescribe improperly. most vets do not have backgrounds in behavioral issues. the point of going to a veterinary behaviorist is to help determine if you are indeed dealing with clinical separation anxiety that can be helped with medication or some other appropriate intervention or if there is something else you can do to address the behavioral issues you are now facing. i would not want a vet who would simply give me a prescription for pills to be popped. btw, some of the more humble vets who are not themselves trained behaviorists have no hesitation in referring clients to someone who is, but only a vet can actually prescribe medication if needed.

whatever you decide, best of luck with resolving your pup's issues. there's a loving soul under the anxiety you have described.


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## Bertie (Aug 4, 2015)

patk said:


> #
> now you have added that your boy is afraid of all other dogs and is also aggressive. (do you mean the nipping stage dogs go through or somethings else?)


I'm not sure whether it's normal or not - but he goes through about three or four mad periods each day, where he goes berserk and starts trying to savage us, and nothing will stop him. They say you're supposed to yelp when he does this, but it just makes him even more aggressive, and if you say 'no' he'll often try to bite your face (if it's within reach).

Sometimes it might be when he's playing, when I assume it's just over-excitement. At other times, it's because you're trying to leave the room, or stopping play with him, or doing anything else that he disapproves of.

He does know not to bite hard, and generally doesn't (he also generally stops when we tell him) - unless he's having one of his turns, and then he goes for it. We think it might be particularly bad at the moment because he's teething.



> whatever you decide, best of luck with resolving your pup's issues. there's a loving soul under the anxiety you have described.


Thank you - I will take your advice (and the other comments that other members have made) on board, and if this continues then we will take him to a specialist. We're hopeful that, over time, he will calm down. He is a good boy most of the time - he just has a few important lessons to learn.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Bertie, could you or someone get a video of him when he's doing what you describe as aggressive? Also, is there any way to get a video of him when he's alone and showing this separation anxiety you're seeing? You might need one of those hidden videos so you're not around to alter his behavior.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Since you didn't suggest what I was speaking of, why would you think I was speaking of you silly



Somebody seems to think I did, or that was the impression I had. Anyway I hope the OP can make things work for her pup. They can be challenging, puppies that is!

To the OP my puppy has two witching hours where he is a totally jumpy, nippy, bitey land shark. When he is like that I ask him for static behaviors like sits or downs, but some time he is so worked up that he pays no attention. At those moments I walk away and pay no attention. Generally he comes to find me and is more settled when he gets there.


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