# Annie - vomitting again.



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie's at the emergency vet. Wait times estimated at 5-6 hours if she isn't critical, and I am told to hope for the longer wait because that means she's less critically ill. Our vet is on vacation so not answering her emergency phone. A vacation is well deserved, but I wish I could talk to her. 

Vomitting and just generally unwell/restless. Gurgly stomach overnight. Seemed better this morning but wouldn't eat, then she threw up and began panting and I called the emergency vet. By the time we made it, wet nose, heavy breathing, and threw up again in car in the parking lot. 

Last time she was like this was when she got herbicide poisoning. 

Still my happy, cheerful girl on leash, tail up and wagging, but she did NOT want to go into the clinic, which is unusual for her. COVID sucks, I want to be with my girl. No call so far with an update and she went in about an hour ago. I guess that's good news??? 

I'm sitting in the car in 28C. It's over an hour drive home, and they said to stay close and go shopping if I wanted? I'm 2 km away from a store I have wanted to go to for months but definitely not in the mood for shopping.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Awwwww poor Annie. I hope you have answers soon!


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I hate that we still can't go in with them. I hope she feels better soon, either with help or on her own. Hopefully she got into something that is causing temporary unpleasantness and nothing more.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh no. I hope she feels better soon.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Feel better, Annie. Are you able to find something to do to keep you occupied, FWOP?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Going home. They want to keep her overnight for IV fluids and meds. Now has bloody diahrea, dehydration.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hugs FWOP. I'm sorry that Annie is having a rough go right now.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Poor Annie, it’s a good thing you were able to get her in for treatment, I hope Annie stabilizes so she can come home quickly and feel back to normal.


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

I hope she gets to feeling better soon!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

What a drag, sorry to see this.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so sorry - she will feel much better once she is hydrated, I'm sure. Hoping for better news in the morning.


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## ShamrockPoodle (Jan 22, 2017)

Sending hugs to you and Annie. I have just been through this exact thing this past week. I also had to leave my mpoo overnight to get rehydrated.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m feeling really sad for you and Annie right now. Covid is definitely making hard things even harder.  Will be thinking of you both and hoping for good news.

Have you used this vet before?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Thanks all. I am safely home and waiting for test results. Reminding myself they can give far better care there than I can at home.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m feeling really sad for you and Annie right now. Covid is definitely making hard things even harder.  Will be thinking of you both and hoping for good news.
> 
> Have you used this vet before?


Never, though they have decent reviews and I like the education listed for their vets. Most of the emergency clinics locally only take animals from associated vet offices (my vet isn't as she normally does her own emergency care) with this one and another with not so great reviews 20 min further away as exceptions.

Staff and vet seemed competent and patient and kind which is good.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Hoping she gets better very soon. Sending good thoughts and prayers your way.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Results are back - It's pancreatitis. 

Fingers crossed I can have her back tomorrow. They want her to eat before they release her, but Annie is a challenge and will not eat in new places or when stressed. I often have to hand feed her when stressed, and I imagine her first night without me, in a vet hospital, with an IV and a sore stomach will be enough to stress her. May need to negotiate with them on that.

Trying to piece together how this happened. Did I give her too many treats at Rally class on Thursday? I didn't feed any more than usual, I dont think... 1/2 a mozzerella cheese string or less (1.75 g fat) some small breed puppy kibble (two tablespoons at most), and dried beef lung and beef liver. I'm working on lowering the rate of rewards right now. She's gotten far more fat than that in the past, like when she stole a whole sausage camping. I gave her liver treats twice on Friday, and liver isn't something I normally feed often...She ate a small piece of raw trachea at some point in the last 3 days... Is that high fat? Did she eat something I didn't know about?

Going to be trying to pinpoint this for a while. And, in the likely case where she needs to be on a lower fat diet for a while/for life, how on earth am I going to find a chicken free, fish free, gluten free low fat kibble?! I can feed Royal Canin or whatever for a few weeks if I have to (maybe in an ex pen?) but I don't trust myself not to accidentally injest residue and get sick, and I know Annie does poorly on chicken. What am I going to feed this dog?! And how many pounds of low fat (and therefore low calorie) dog food will my active spoo need to eat on a daily basis?

I am very grateful I can have these worries and that I can call to check on her again tonight.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

That’s really rough, but at least it’s something treatable. I hope you can find something that works for her.


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## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

Oh no, poor Annie and poor you. I’m so sorry to hear she’s sick. I hope she’s well enough to come home soon. You must be going crazy having her away from you.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm praying for Annie's full recovery. Maybe she got into something without you knowing. Hopefully she can continue with her current diet.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m sorry she was diagnosed with pancreatitis. My tpoo developed it from eating cat kibble snacks in addition to her food. She was young and this was before internet and prescription vet foods. My vet gave me a recipe for her food. This tpoo lived til she was 20. The only time she had another episode was when I was lazy and fed her some of her old canned dog food. I felt so horrible causing her such pain that I cooked her food the rest of her life. 

if you can find the right food, hopefully she will do as well as my tpoo did.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Gracie got bloody diarrhea from liver. Maybe that was the culprit?

Either way, really hoping Annie has an uneventful night and settles in enough to feel comfortable eating. I’m glad they were able to diagnose her so quickly.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Glad you have a diagnosis. If you can't find a suitable commercial food I believe BalanceIT can work up special needs recipes for home cooked food. I've not used them myself, but my cat vet said some of her patients are doing well on their formulations.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I’m sorry this is happening. At least now you know what it is and hopefully you’ll find a diet that you like and that keeps her healthy.

Fingers crossed Annie comes home tomorrow !


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear this but grateful for the diagnosis and treatment plan. Keeping you all in my thoughts.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Horrible disease, but at least you have a diagnosis and a plan. Home cooking may be your best option - that way you know exactly what is in her food. I have found Mary Strauss's information reliable - here is her take on low fat diets: DogAware.com Articles: Healthy Low-Fat Diets for Dogs


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

We're all here with you, FWOP. I hope some of the suggestions above are helpful.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Sorry your going thru this, hope it is resolved and all back to normal quickly.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

At least you have a diagnosis and it is treatable even if it takes a bit of sleuthing to figure out a good diet and safe to use treats. I would tend to think staying away from the beef liver might be a good part of the plan.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Good news - Annie did well overnight and is eating a bit and likely coming home late this afternoon/early evening with meds and gastro food. I am very very impatient and will be happy to get her home. It's been really odd not to have my shadow. 

I think I will buy the big bag of gastro food (3 weeks worth) and possibly some cans to tide me over until I can speak with my own vet. I am definitely going to get rid of the beef liver treats from sheer paranoia. I've had the bag since before Christmas, Thursday-Friday was the most I have ever given in a short time, and liver treats were the last thing she ate Friday night though she was a bit 'off' before that. They claim low fat, but I know they can be hard on some dogs.

My mom had a small dog 30 years ago with pancreatitis. She homecooked meals and the dog was fine for many years except for bad teeth.

I'm just so confused. I've always been careful about her food. Wondering if the herbicide poisoning last year damaged her pancreas? Wondering if she has had some low grade chronic pancreatitis? I had meant to ask for blood tests a few months later to make sure everything was back to normal - and didn't  

I found one lamb and rice kibble (Natural Balance LID) that's possibly a bit high in fat (11%) but way lower than anything else I found. I will ask my vet. If the vet is ok with 12% fat, there is even a large breed version.

I think homecooked may be the solution long term if I need to keep below 10% fat. Based on the listed US prices, the likely low fat gastro formulas would work out to about 5+ cups or 1+ lb/day of food, 26 lbs per bag, likely $130 CAD/bag, or $5+/day. Current food is 3 cups/day, 36 lb bag for $100 with tax. Not saying she isn't worth it, but It begins to strongly tip the economics in favour of home cooked, especially since Trixie will likely need to eat the same food. No idea how we will fit this in the freezer! 

I have a copy of a very comprehensive dog food spreadsheet that compares potential homemade dog food recipes to AAFCO and NRC standards. I bought it a few months ago when I started making a homemade replacement for canned food as a dog food topper.

Spreadsheet from here: 









Raw Dog and Cat Food Formulator by Raw Fed & Nerdy


Formulate raw and cooked recipes using nutrient guidelines such as NRC, FEDIAF, or AAFCO on our cloud-based tool.




rawfedandnerdy.com





I spent a few hours playing with the spreadsheet last night to try and figure out a balanced home cooked option with similar macros to the veterinary formula that this NRC balanced. I worked up an option that may work. The recipe is a bit complicated to try and get the right nutrient mix and macros mostly from whole food with limited supplements, with low protein (mostly carbs) and very low fat. I won't start using it without vet approval, but having a plan helps and I find spreadsheets very soothing. A complicated recipe isn't the end of the world if I can make it once per month. 

Grateful, always, to be able to have these rather minor worries.


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## ShamrockPoodle (Jan 22, 2017)

I’m glad Annie will be able to come home soon. Thanks for sharing your plan for her care. I have been through the identical situation with my mpoo this past week. I did not get a diagnosis—only maybe pancreatitis due to elevated lipase. Otherwise it would be stress colitis. I’m wondering about fat content as well. I see two similar factors—I was giving periodic small liver treats as training incentives and I had also been putting a small amount of shredded cheese as a topper so my two mini poodles would eat their wet food.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Shamrock a lot of the marketed “premium dog food” is too high in fat so it maybe a combination of higher fat food along with high fat treats such as liver and cheese.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

ShamrockPoodle said:


> I’m glad Annie will be able to come home soon. Thanks for sharing your plan for her care. I have been through the identical situation with my mpoo this past week. I did not get a diagnosis—only maybe pancreatitis due to elevated lipase. Otherwise it would be stress colitis. I’m wondering about fat content as well. I see two similar factors—I was giving periodic small liver treats as training incentives and I had also been putting a small amount of shredded cheese as a topper so my two mini poodles would eat their wet food.


I hope your poodle is doing well now, and continues to do well! It's so stressful not knowing what's wrong. 

Interestingly, it's the amylase that's up for Annie, not lipase, same as a year ago. Liver treats might be it - but it's only 5% fat by dry matter, and sometimes recommended as a low fat treat for dogs with pancreatitis! Just weird. Cheese - I've fed Annie a whole cheese string in a sitting in the past while I was working on her squirrel obsession, no issues. I checked my treat bag - I fed her only 1/3 of a stick (mozzerella is lower fat). Her food is 17% fat which is pretty normal for adult food.

Absolutely no way to know what is 'right' or what triggered things. My childhood dogs ate the cheapest kibble available (Ol' 'Roy or the no name alternative) bulked up by table scraps, bacon grease, and vegetable oil, which the dogs supplemented with 'fresh caught raw'. No digestive issues. Trixie is 1/4 Annie's size and gets the same amount of table scraps as Annie, or more. No issues.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm glad Annie is doing better. Keep us posted when she's home again!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

One thing to remember and discuss with your vet, is that pancreatitis is not always linked to higher fat foods. Dogs with chronic pancreatitis do need a lower fat food long-term, but it's not necessarily the case for a dog that has a single bout (is this the first time for Annie?)
Other causes of gastric upset can result in pancreatitis too. For example, I've seen cases where a dog ate an item that caused irritation that resulted in secondary pancreatitis. I even remember one case where a dog ate a sock or something, which caused pancreatitis AND needed surgical removal (poor dog). 
Anyways, obviously for now it's best to manage Annie kn the low fat food, but it may be worth discussing with your vet if there is a way to determine whether this is a chronic thing for her or a reaction to something specific (like those liver treats for example). It's certainly difficult to find foods and treats that meet multiple dietary restrictions!


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## ShamrockPoodle (Jan 22, 2017)

Skylar said:


> Shamrock a lot of the marketed “premium dog food” is too high in fat so it maybe a combination of higher fat food along with high fat treats such as liver and cheese.


Thanks Skylar—I was thinking that as well. I think their regular food is pretty rich. Toula has now gotten tired of the digestive wet food we got at the vets office. Interesting—she turned her head away from her regular food. I had gotten a mistake order a month or so ago when they sent me the mature eight plus food. She likes that right now—it is indeed lower fat and lower phosphorous. I’m planning on discussing her diet with the vet soon!


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## ShamrockPoodle (Jan 22, 2017)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I hope your poodle is doing well now, and continues to do well! It's so stressful not knowing what's wrong.
> 
> Interestingly, it's the amylase that's up for Annie, not lipase, same as a year ago. Liver treats might be it - but it's only 5% fat by dry matter, and sometimes recommended as a low fat treat for dogs with pancreatitis! Just weird. Cheese - I've fed Annie a whole cheese string in a sitting in the past while I was working on her squirrel obsession, no issues. I checked my treat bag - I fed her only 1/3 of a stick (mozzerella is lower fat). Her food is 17% fat which is pretty normal for adult food.
> 
> Absolutely no way to know what is 'right' or what triggered things. My childhood dogs ate the cheapest kibble available (Ol' 'Roy or the no name alternative) bulked up by table scraps, bacon grease, and vegetable oil, which the dogs supplemented with 'fresh caught raw'. No digestive issues. Trixie is 1/4 Annie's size and gets the same amount of table scraps as Annie, or more. No issues.


I know what you mean! My previous poodle had a grocery store diet plus cheese—and had no issues! I also have another mini poo that eats the same thing!!!


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

Starvt said:


> One thing to remember and discuss with your vet, is that pancreatitis is not always linked to higher fat foods. Dogs with chronic pancreatitis do need a lower fat food long-term, but it's not necessarily the case for a dog that has a single bout (is this the first time for Annie?)
> Other causes of gastric upset can result in pancreatitis too. For example, I've seen cases where a dog ate an item that caused irritation that resulted in secondary pancreatitis. I even remember one case where a dog ate a sock or something, which caused pancreatitis AND needed surgical removal (poor dog).
> Anyways, obviously for now it's best to manage Annie kn the low fat food, but it may be worth discussing with your vet if there is a way to determine whether this is a chronic thing for her or a reaction to something specific (like those liver treats for example). It's certainly difficult to find foods and treats that meet multiple dietary restrictions!


This is most likely right! In humans you can get pancreatitis due to biliary disease (gallbladder/gall stones etc), also from electrolyte disturbances (high calcium) and even scorpion bites...


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

She's HOME!!!

There was a few hours delay as she vomitted again and they debated admitting her for another night, then an hour+ delay waiting in the parking lot for paperwork (very busy clinic), but I finally was handed a case of gastro food, a bag of drugs, and a VERY smelly, kinda dopey, very happy poodle. 

Pancreatitis diarrhea is vile. So vile my first thought upon greeting her was not 'yay!' it was 'ewwww!" She was coated on her whole rear, plus dried vomit on her feet/muzzle/chest, so ended up with a bath first thing after getting home. Poor girl. She is in a sweater because I couldn't bring myself to blow her dry. Zoomies in the house after being freed from the bathroom, so obviously feeling fine. Very thankful for my backseat hammock, just washed the vomit out of it from yesterday now need to wash it again.

She has eaten half a can of gastro and an antibiotic, literally licking her lips when she smelled it. She would have cheerfully eaten more. Also - the canned food is gluten free and pork based! Woohoo! Two less worries. 

She's on an anti nausea drug and 2 antibiotics, and 3 days on gastro food (4x/day), then transition to normal dog food. I will call my vet to be sure this is what she wants me to do. I will probably go and buy a bag of the LID Natural balance (11% vs 17% fat) just to be even gentler on her stomach if our vet okays it. Do not want to go through this again. 

Now bedtime for one tired poodle, and one very tired human.



Starvt said:


> One thing to remember and discuss with your vet, is that pancreatitis is not always linked to higher fat foods. Dogs with chronic pancreatitis do need a lower fat food long-term, but it's not necessarily the case for a dog that has a single bout (is this the first time for Annie?)
> Other causes of gastric upset can result in pancreatitis too. For example, I've seen cases where a dog ate an item that caused irritation that resulted in secondary pancreatitis. I even remember one case where a dog ate a sock or something, which caused pancreatitis AND needed surgical removal (poor dog).
> Anyways, obviously for now it's best to manage Annie kn the low fat food, but it may be worth discussing with your vet if there is a way to determine whether this is a chronic thing for her or a reaction to something specific (like those liver treats for example). It's certainly difficult to find foods and treats that meet multiple dietary restrictions!


She had a bout of similar symptoms and very high amylase last year, not quite so bad (blood in vomit not in stool). We blamed it on herbicide as she started vomitting about half an hour after playing ball in a field which had recently been sprayed.

I definitely will be talking to my vet as a follow up. I suspect follow up bloodwork at minimum is probably a good idea to determine if she has chronic pancreatitis.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Welcome home, Annie. Hope y'all sleep well.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm very sorry you and Annie had to go through that. I'm very happy that she is home and happy again.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

So glad she’s home, on the road to recovery.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Very happy to hear that she's home! Hope this means a restful night for all 🙏


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I’m so glad for you that you have your girl back home again. Hoping all goes well and you all get some rest!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome home, Annie! Hope you have a good sleep in your bed tonight.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Zoomies must have been wonderful, after the anxiety of the last few days. Hope you both sleep well tonight, with no more blips on the road to recovery.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Hope she is continuing to mend.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Always a good sign when the dog sleeps sprawled on her side, not in a tight ball. She did ask to go out at 3:30 am, but her response to my 'time to get up!' (because she needed meds) this morning was 'Really, do I have to?'

She is up, devoured her breakfast and the hidden pills, and now snoozing on my mom's bed again following her regular schedule. Definitely still not 100% but on the mend. Very impressed with the palatability (smelliness and texture) of this Royal Canin food. 

Thanks everyone for all your kind wishes - very much appreciated.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Love that happy news!


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

Happy she’s home and doing better!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie has revised her opinion of the palatability of the gastro food sharply downwards.

This is her last night, and she's doing it again right now!










She says 'Hi Human. Your tomato meat sauce smells nicer than my brown gick on the floor in that white bowl. Care to share with a hungry poodle? I'll nap politely on your lap while you consider.' Sorry, but no. 

Can't say I blame her, it smells really bad! I think the smell was enough to break through nausea but as she feels better, she is less interested.

She drank for the first time since getting home last night (that I could tell).

This morning she was begging for treats (no) and turned her nose up at gastro after managing to sneak a few kibbles of Trixie's breakfast. She ate maybe 1/4 of a can which was enough to get meds in. She's been turning up her nose at gastro and begging hard for our food; her normal strategy is to wait for Trixie to beg, so this is unusual. I broke down and cooked her rice with an egg scrambled in it which is what our vet recommended last time she was sick. She's eaten a bit of it, she hates both rice and eggs so for her to prefer that to the gastro is saying soemthing. I'll probably break down and boil some ground beef tomorrow. 

I wanted her to lose some weight (and she had) but this is NOT how I wanted her to do it.

Trixie has been doing important work encouraging Annie to eat - she goes, takes some gastro and Annie decides she needs to eat some before Trixie gets it all. However, Trixie's breath reeks so it's definitely not agreeing with her. I am getting tired of being on dog bowl patrol - the two of them usually switch bowls midway through eating.

Waiting for a call back from our vet, called this morning, if they haven't called back by mid-day tomorrow I'll call again.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I remember seeing on a vet show ages ago a woman with an Afghan hound who she claimed would not drink water, only milk but the dog had an upset intestine (maybe lactose intolerant). She wanted help figuring out how to break the milk habit. The vet said only offer water and when she gets thirsty enough she will drink water. In a rough parallel my mom's dog is a picky eater and she often goes to great lengths with toppers and such to encourage him to eat and often to little effect. When her dog stays with us he often will refuse to eat for the first day or so. I give him his food as directed by my mother and put him in a room with a baby gate in the doorway. My dogs can watch him. One the first meal he gets 10 minutes and then I let my dogs wipe his bowl clean in front of him. The first time we did this it took three meals to figure he had to eat what was there or nothing. He always goes home eating well. 

Moral of the story for you is that normal dogs won't allow themselves to die of thirst nor will they allow themselves to starve. So stick to your guns and show some tough love. When she gets hungry enough she will eat. It is a stinky situation to be "mean" about this but she will be so much happier and healthier once you do this transition.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I had trouble switching my tpoo from the rich canned food (and cat kibble snacks she stole) to her pancreatic diet. I had to let her get so hungry that she decided that she would eat the new food. It took several frustrating days until she gave in and started to eat full meals.

It’s a shame that our dogs don’t understand enough language for us to explain. All they know is we took away their yummy food and left an unpalatable alternative. They don’t understand the change will keep them healthy. 

Does your vet have any alternative choices for food? Maybe one that smells better? Or suggestions you can do to add a topper that is compliant with the new diet?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I remember seeing on a vet show ages ago a woman with an Afghan hound who she claimed would not drink water, only milk but the dog had an upset intestine (maybe lactose intolerant). She wanted help figuring out how to break the milk habit. The vet said only offer water and when she gets thirsty enough she will drink water. In a rough parallel my mom's dog is a picky eater and she often goes to great lengths with toppers and such to encourage him to eat and often to little effect. When her dog stays with us he often will refuse to eat for the first day or so. I give him his food as directed by my mother and put him in a room with a baby gate in the doorway. My dogs can watch him. One the first meal he gets 10 minutes and then I let my dogs wipe his bowl clean in front of him. The first time we did this it took three meals to figure he had to eat what was there or nothing. He always goes home eating well.
> 
> Moral of the story for you is that normal dogs won't allow themselves to die of thirst nor will they allow themselves to starve. So stick to your guns and show some tough love. When she gets hungry enough she will eat. It is a stinky situation to be "mean" about this but she will be so much happier and healthier once you do this transition.


Not good advice in this case, I am afraid. Possibly reasonable advice for a dog that is well, but not right in this situation. Right now it's important that she eat very frequently (vet said 4 x per day) to allow the pancreas to smooth into normal operation (digesting food, not itself) and not irritate her 'angry' stomach. Small amounts of low fat, high carb, easy to digest food, regularly. Water is also important, I've syringed water twice now, and added extra to her canned, because I can't afford for her to be on an IV again for fluids and her urine is dark. Vet on the previous occasion said to syringe water if she won't drink, syringe electrolytes if she won't eat or drink and monitor for dehydration (which I am doing), and feed rice or oatmeal with eggs or boiled ground beef until she feels better. 

She's on antinausea meds and antibiotics, i gave the final 24 hr antinausea tab this evening, but not any pain killers. I definitely noticed increased nausea the hour before I gave her last tab. Her stomach hurts, she was on methadone while in the vet hospital, and her appetite waning seems to correspond with when the methadone left her system. She's lost noticeable weight and is eating less than half of what is recommended for her size. Finding ways to make eating small amounts of appropriate foods palatable is the main goal here. So I am being strict on no table scraps or normal dog kibble, but not on 'must eat gastro food'.

I've nursed a human through acute pancreatitis, so know finding foods that 'feel okay' in the stomach and can be eaten in tiny meals is important and difficult, as is trying to push fluids. The human was way pickier and more difficult, even with the ability to explain!

Still waiting to hear from my own vet if I should transition her back to normal food in 2 days (as advised by the emergency vet) when I run out of gastro cans - at the rate we are using them, probably in 4 days. I suspect no, since her stomach is still tender and she flinches if I touch it.

Once she is no longer in pain, I'll be more strict about 'eat your food' but she won't have to eat this canned gick for long - it will be dry food (either low fat or her normal) or I will homecook, so no point in getting in a battle of wills right now and potentially setting back her recovery.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I feel very bad for Annie and know how hard it must be to see her not thriving. Tell her I don’t especially like eggs either (ick), but she needs to get something in that belly of hers. Sending hugs from Peggy and me.

P.S. Peggy says Weruva chicken is yummy and very low in fat: WERUVA Paw Lickin' Chicken in Gravy Grain-Free Canned Cat Food, 3-oz, case of 24 - Chewy.com



Chicken (Boneless, Skinless Breast), Chicken Broth, Potato Starch, Sunflower Seed Oil, Calcium Lactate, Xanthan Gum, Tricalcium Phosphate, Choline Chloride, Taurine, Zinc Sulfate, Vitamin E Supplement, Ferrous Sulfate, Nicotinic Acid (Vitamin B3), Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Calcium Pantothenate, Copper Sulfate, Riboflavin Supplement (Vitamin B2), Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Vitamin A Supplement, Manganese Sulfate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Potassium Iodide, Sodium Selenite, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement.
Caloric Content

57 kcal/3-oz can, 105 kcal/5.5-oz can, 192 kcal/10-oz can

Guaranteed Analysis Crude Protein 10% min​Crude Fat 1.4% min​Crude Fiber 0.50% max​Moisture 85% max​Ash 1.2% max​Calcium 0.20% max​Phos 0.17% max​Magnesium 0.018% max​Taurine 0.05% min​


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Not good advice in this case, I am afraid. Possibly reasonable advice for a dog that is well, but not right in this situation. Right now it's important that she eat very frequently (vet said 4 x per day) to allow the pancreas to smooth into normal operation (digesting food, not itself) and not irritate her 'angry' stomach. Small amounts of low fat, high carb, easy to digest food, regularly. Water is also important, I've syringed water twice now, and added extra to her canned, because I can't afford for her to be on an IV again for fluids and her urine is dark. Vet on the previous occasion said to syringe water if she won't drink, syringe electrolytes if she won't eat or drink and monitor for dehydration (which I am doing), and feed rice or oatmeal with eggs or boiled ground beef until she feels better.
> 
> She's on antinausea meds and antibiotics, i gave the final 24 hr antinausea tab this evening, but not any pain killers. I definitely noticed increased nausea the hour before I gave her last tab. Her stomach hurts, she was on methadone while in the vet hospital, and her appetite waning seems to correspond with when the methadone left her system. She's lost noticeable weight and is eating less than half of what is recommended for her size. Finding ways to make eating small amounts of appropriate foods palatable is the main goal here. So I am being strict on no table scraps or normal dog kibble, but not on 'must eat gastro food'.
> 
> ...


I agee! One of the most important parts of treating acute pancreatitis is fluids/hydration!!!


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Know that you are helping Annie in any way you can. Hate that she has not progress lately. Thoughts and Prayers from me and Asta.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Would good old chicken and rice work? As it is short term complete balance is not that important - skinned chicken breast simmered, and rice cooked in the chicken water might get her eating. I would suspect she has gone off the gastric food because she now associates it with a painful stomach - I don't think I would be in too much of a rush to transition her back to her usual food in case she comes to dislike that for the same reason.

When Poppy was first ill she suffered from nausea. At first she ate the hepatic diet, then decided it was horrible and refused it, but would eat my home made oats and chicken concoction. My vet recommended offering her a little of both in separate bowls - after a few days she was hungry and started eating the hepatic diet again, and has enjoyed it ever since. It might work for Annie too.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Completely different, just tossing this out. Oliver had a major dental in May and could not eat hard kibble. I ordered Gerber strained chicken, turkey, and beef to add to his softened kibble.

Early on, he just had strained meat mixed with water, and did enjoy that bounced with a sprinkle of salt and turmeric.

Could something like that help get you through while maintaining necessary blood glucose and electrolyte levels?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Big issue with Annie is she tends to throws up plain chicken and chicken based foods even on the best of days, or it causes diarrhea. Most fish is similar but more dramatic, and she has reacted since she was a puppy. Annie says chicken is tasty, I am a worrywart, and all of those options sound quite tasty and better than gastro. Our regular vet usually says for a week or two, nutritionally balanced isn't all that important. 

Fjm- I like your idea of offering both on seperate plates. I will probably do that. 

I made the boiled extra lean ground beef. Felt like a culinary crime. Cooled it and skimmed the tiny amount of fat off the top and soaked her cooked rice in the broth plus added a tiny sprinkle of nutritional yeast for flavour and a few B vitamins (Annie loves nutritional yeast when I am eating popcorn). About 1/4 boiled meat, 3/4 soft rice. Annie said it was quite tasty, thank you, (she monitored my cooking with great interest) but picked through the rice a bit. She ate another 1/4 can first thing this morning too. Seems to eat gastro better presented on a plate, cut into separated chunks so she doesn't have to stick her nose in it and can just swallow chunks rather than try to lick it. 

Oh, and she finally pooped! Well formed but still black, but first since she got home Sunday night. Good girl, Annie. That was the next item on the "signs dog is recovering" list.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Cheering for Annie’s poop! That’s great news.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent poop news! If she can't tolerate chicken then definitely best to steer clear - Sophy is the same with turkey.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hear ya on what the vet wants in terms of frequent eating to help settle her stomach. It is too bad that you can't take a wait her out approach since it nearly always works, but it definitely sounds contraindicated here. I wish I had a better idea for you, but all of us at our house are pulling for you both.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I got one of the emergency appointment slots before the weekend for Annie at our vet this evening (vet is officially closed Fri-Sunday) when we called and said she had black stool for a second day. I was worried about some sort of internal bleeding.

Absolutely love our vet. She is hard to get into but so very good. Has started doing rounds in the parking lot for emergency patients (since still not allowed), so I got to talk face to face before first exam and after she was done.

The vet is good with dogs but also has very good people skills, I am way calmer and feel like I understand what is going on now. Small intestine has lost mucous lining and that is where blood is from, should repair itself in 3 days or so. She says she thinks Annie will be fine. Stomach is still swollen and tender.

Instructions are to discontinue gastro food, since the vet doesn't like the pork based formula. Discontinue one of her meds. Add in digestive enzymes. Syringe electrolyte solution and water since she is mildly dehydrated again, plus syringe an bentonite based liquid med to sooth the stomach.

Feed frequent meals of beef or eggs and rice or oatmeal or unflavored mashed potatoes, and possibly vanilla Ensure plus (for vitamins and minerals) for another week. She says it's way too soon to take her off of a recovery diet. If things go south, she can see us again on Saturday, or she will come in for more blood work Monday.

Unfortunately, the vet suspects possible atypical Addison's, not chronic pancreatitis  Annie is to take dexamethasone for two weeks in case that's the issue. She doesn't think Annie will need to be on low fat food long term but will play by ear, and okayed the Natural Balance as a reasonable thing to switch to short term.

Felt very lucky in the parking lot. One dog was there with a broken leg. Two cats there, one run over (to be put down), one with heart failure (to be put down Saturday). Could be far worse.


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## Blazenoliver (Jun 18, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Results are back - It's pancreatitis.
> 
> Fingers crossed I can have her back tomorrow. They want her to eat before they release her, but Annie is a challenge and will not eat in new places or when stressed. I often have to hand feed her when stressed, and I imagine her first night without me, in a vet hospital, with an IV and a sore stomach will be enough to stress her. May need to negotiate with them on that.
> 
> ...


I have to feed my SPOO Taste of the Wild their venison kibble. It is grain free, chicken free, gluten free. Not sure about fat content. Any other kind of meat he can't handle. I was afraid I was going to have to try the kangaroo kibble, but fortunately he does well on the venison. Duck/turkey is too close to chicken, bison is too close to beef. I tried so many before finding the venison. Good luck.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a heartbreaking scene in that parking lot. 

I’m sorry Annie’s health is still so precarious. Your vet really does sound absolutely wonderful, though. I’m glad she’s taking good care of Annie AND you.


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## Porkchop (Sep 2, 2019)

I agree, your vets sounds like a very special practitioner.
Is Annie doing better besides the black poop?
I guess you got some perspective at the parking lot in the vet, very sad situations. It still really sucks you’re both going through a tough time with her health.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Ohhhhh, yes addison's could fit! Wow, kudos to your vet for thinking of that so early in the game.
I'm not sure if that's preferable to chronic pancreatitis or not, but either way I hope Annie gets a diagnosis and treatment soon, and starts feeling better!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I’m so glad you were seen by the vet and we’re able to have a face to face talk so you understood what is going on. You have a good game plan now with more palatable food. Hopefully you will continue to see improvement. It will be better once she’s diagnosed so you will be able to manage the disease. 

Must have been so sad watching those other people and their pets.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I could not be a vet or a vet tech. Too much sad. Grateful some people are. It's a very small town so I actually knew one of the women with the cats, she's a friend of my mother's. She's a saint who takes in stray cats - this was one of her strays, not a house cat (last time I asked she had 12 house cats and 30 + outdoor strays that she feeds, traps, and spays/neuters and attempts to rehome as money allows- people dump them at her place). 

@ Porkchop - I think she's slowly improving other than the bloody stool which had me panicking. 

Annie update - 

Not sure if it was mixing in a bit of Ensure, the discontinuing of the one med (side effect is nausea), the bentonite concoction, more electrolyte solution by syringe, the steroids, or just plain coincidence and time - Annie ate very well tonight, actually licked her plate clean, twice, and then an hour later, ate almost another full serving. That's the best she has eaten since her first day home! 

She's continuing to show signs of stomach discomfort, moving and swinging her rear gingerly not to jar her stomach too much while walking, and still lagging on walks but is more energetic than she was on Monday. Occasionally she forgets her stomach and runs and chases squirrels/chipmunks. Still not really playful and low exercise. But I am feeling more confident in her recovery now and am happy with the plan.

@Starvt - Yeah - not really sure which potential diagnosis is better TBH. Addison's would maybe fit. Or not. Chronic pancreatitis might too. I guess vet is right: see what happens after she has recovered from this and go from there.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Scary and frustrating times but it's good to hear that your vet is considering options until more is known, and how comforting to actually speak with her, not to mention the rest. 

Look after yourself, too.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

It's like a switch flipped after visiting the vet. 

She ate well that night. She is far more alert and active. Bright eyed, head up, tail up Not as much wanting to run as usual, but way more like her normal self. 

Lots of appetite, and has even drank some beef broth and a bit of fresh rain puddle (still not drinking normally, still getting water and electrolytes by syringe). 

Her stool today is yellow, not black. Still not right but so much better. 

No idea what caused the difference since there were 4 or 5 changes, but I am happy. Finally seems to be going back to normal.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I totally hear you on being able to see f2f your regular vet even if in parking lot for "triage." It has been so much better for us to be back with our regular guy who keeps the appointments running on schedule than what we were stuck with during the worst of last year where we would make an appointment, wedge into the parking lot early while avoiding fender bender situations, call in and say we were there but still wait an hour to get someone to come out for the dog. A tech would come you would tell them what your issues were and then 30 or more minutes later the vet would call your cell phone.......

I am glad you feel better and that your sweet girl is improving further even if you don't have a final answer yet.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Thought I should update that as of today Annie is on 3/4 Natural balance kibble (slowly transitioning away from 'glop' as we have been referring to the bland diet) and doing well. Still potentially a bit less energetic than usual, but that could be the weather too. She has another week on steroids at a lower dose and we will see after that. 

She has met a few dog friends and they say she smells very weird. Lots of nose up butt for long enough the humans tell them to move along.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I hope she continues to improve. It sounds like you have an awesome vet.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I hope Annie continues to get better. 🤗 Your vet sounds amazing! It's always great to see a vet that does an amazing job.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Back at the vet again today. I thought we were doing Addisons testing, but we were instead doing a consultation to decide if I should take Annie for Addison's testing.

I've been home cooking half of her food - if I put her on full kibble (even a low fat kibble) - she vomits and is lethargic.
I've also had to keep her on steroids - if I take her off steroids, within 2-3 days, she vomits and is lethargic. 

Discussion with the vet - acute pancreatitis takes 3 months minimum to recover from - continue what I am doing for home cooked, reassess in a few months if I still need to feed home cooked.

The vet is running bloodwork to see how the pancreatitis is recovering and to check electrolytes etc to compare against what the emergency vet did.

Other than that - she strongly suspects atypical Addison's based on Annie's reaction to steroids. Her thoughts on further testing were that it's very expensive and would require me to go to either Ottawa or Guelph, and that the test results say "this is suggestive of Addisons" rather than being conclusive, and the reaction to steroids is already highly suggestive of Addison's. She says there is one other disease it could be based on the reaction to steroids, but considering she is a young, black, female standard poodle (or as the vet put it, the poster dog for Addison's diagnosis), and the other disease is more typical of German shepherds, rottweilers, etc, she strongly suspects Addison's. I have a relative who has spent about $20 k on Addison's diagnosis and treatment for her dog (a reserve mutt, not a standard poodle) so I appreciate my vet's consideration for my pocket book.

She's being switched to prednisone, and we will reassess (and do more blood work) in 6 months and after the bloodwork comes back next week.

So - that's our update - not as good as I'd hoped it would be ( I had thought we were dealing with a case of Addisons OR chronic pancreatitis, not Addisons AND chronic pancreatitis!), but far less bad than it could be. Annie says daily medicine is yummy, and home cooked is yummy too!

Really hope not to see the vet, lovely as she is, again anytime soon!!!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

This is bittersweet news, for sure. Your vet really does sound like a gem and I’m happy you and Annie have her. Hope Annie continues responding well to treatment and her yummy homecooked meals.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Definitely bittersweet, but hopeful too. And as Poppy has found there are compensations in having to take medicine when it comes wrapped in chicken, and having special, extra delicious food! 

After a while the shock of diagnosis passes and it becomes the new reality, and no longer feels so stressful. I hope Annie continues to thrive on her new regime.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm sorry it wasn't better news but you and Annie, along with your vet, will get thru this to your new normal.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm a little confused here. The test that my vet uses for Addisons is the ACTH stim test (which requires taking a blood sample, giving an injection, and then taking blood samples afterwards). This test is not difficult- we do it frequently, and it can be done anywhere that uses one of the outside labs- nor is it terribly expensive, I think around $300? Although that doesn't include ultrasound which is sometimes done as well (the blood test is definitive anyway).
I'm also taken aback by the suggestion of just using prednisone. That's a glucocorticoid, but normally there should also be mineralocorticoid replacement. And yeah, Annie's response does sound very like what you would expect for addison's. I'm assuming her electrolytes were not at the levels that generally suggest addison's, which is why it's considered atypical? IIRC, about 1/4 of addisonian dogs do not show the electrolyte imbalances.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Starvt - yes, I'd thought we were doing the ACTH stim test, but apparently our vet does not offer it in house. 

So getting that test done requires us to be referred elsewhere (with specialty hospital prices - estimated $500) and a significant drive - she said she was happy to refer us, but would also be comfortable treating it as Addison's based on symptoms, dramatic response to steroids, and long term history (sensitivity to stress, prone to vomitting and lack of appetite in stressful situations, dehydration, low blood sugar, etc) unless something changed based on bloodwork.

My understanding is that the stim test isn't completely definitive, and there are often "borderline" results particularly for atypical cases. My cousin's dog (different vet) went through several thousand dollars of testing at the University of Guelph to diagnose her with atypical addison's (in addition to $10 k (twice) for emergency vet care for Addisonian crises) - she has Addison's, but borderline stim test results.

You're correct - she has no signs of electrolyte imbalance - typically no need for the other type of steroid. Vet wants repeat bloodwork in addition to current bloodwork in 6 months to see if that changes or if her condition changes in any way, I am to bring her in again and get the ACTH test.

I'm pretty comfortable skipping testing at this point but will reassess based on what they say when blood test results come back. If she recommends testing, I will do it. She has been my parents vet for about 15 years and I really trust her judgement.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

fjm said:


> Definitely bittersweet, but hopeful too. And as Poppy has found there are compensations in having to take medicine when it comes wrapped in chicken, and having special, extra delicious food!
> 
> After a while the shock of diagnosis passes and it becomes the new reality, and no longer feels so stressful. I hope Annie continues to thrive on her new regime.


Annie says Poppy is right about scrummy medicine, and highly recommends that every dog should go about convincing their humans to make homecooked food! We are so lucky they live so in the moment. 

I'm disappointed, but not shocked, I think. I've been battling autoimmune diseases and special diets of my own for years - at least this is easily manageable.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Starvt - yes, I'd thought we were doing the ACTH stim test, but apparently our vet does not offer it in house.
> 
> So getting that test done requires us to be referred elsewhere (with specialty hospital prices - estimated $500) and a significant drive - she said she was happy to refer us, but would also be comfortable treating it as Addison's based on symptoms, dramatic response to steroids, and long term history (sensitivity to stress, prone to vomitting and lack of appetite in stressful situations, dehydration, low blood sugar, etc) unless something changed based on bloodwork.
> 
> ...



That all makes sense. Although I'm fairly sure that inconclusive/borderline results are actually quite rare.

Something to keep in mind though, if/when you do end up deciding to have the test done. Lots of regular clinics do offer ACTH stim testing, so you could call around to find one as a sort of 'second opinion' to have it done without the insane referral prices. I know it's something my clinic has done, particularly if it can be scheduled as a regular appointment and not during an urgent episode.

[_Mod note - fixed quote formatting so it would display correctly_]


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Thank you! That's an awesome idea to call around and try another normal (probably larger) vet clinic for the test rather than the specialty clinic. I know there's one larger clinic that was able to squeeze us in for a vaccination when I had just moved...


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm sorry it wasn't better news too, but I know you and your vet will make sure Annie is thriving.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I wish it was better news but I think once you get into the right routine with both diagnoses you’ll feel more in control over Annie’s health.

My tpoo years ago lived many years with pancreatitis and except for the special diet, you wouldn’t have known she had a chronic illness. Addison’s adds it’s own problems but with good vet care you’ll figure it out.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

This morning, she PLAYED WITH ME!!!! She actually brought me a toy and asked to PLAY!!! We played one of her favourite games, 'catch and tug and fetch the hedgehog". 

Yesterday I got the blood test results back - the test which I approved that the vet tech said was testing pancreatic enzymes was actually a random cortisol test. Sigh. Good vet, very disorganized office. If the vet asks for blood tests, I agree, but I would have cheerfully paid for both tests. 

Anyway, random cortisol came back as below the limit which is highly suggestive of Addison's. If she remains lethargic after 4 weeks on prednisone, we are to go back and do more tests.

She is still not as energetic as I would like to see - she was playing with a 1 year old mini bernedoodle a few days ago and it exhausted her in minutes, but she did have a few minutes of really perfect, exaggerated bouncing and bowing poodle-play. Oh, and she has started yodelling at me when I refuse to let her chase things on our walks. Never thought I would be appreciative to have that behaviour back.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

So good to hear that she's feeling better and up to poodley antics, even if they wear her out!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I love a happy update.  Hoping for more yodelling!


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