# Standard challenging me



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm sorry you are going through that with your poodle! Some of the stuff you mentioned sound un-poodley to me. I'm unconcerned that he growls and tries to bite YOU, the owner. I could maybe understand if he did that with another dog. I do wonder how your dog views you, as a leader? Or as a playmate that won't let him do things? (hence the biting/growling) - I don't want to get too into dog psychology cause there are people here better with that than me - but just wondering who grooms him?? I can see him being reactive with a groomer, but perhaps not - because he wouldn't have anything to get riled up about there, necessarily. I think the neutering may help, but I heard it takes several weeks for the hormones to level out. I just know when I groom intact males, they are moody and quicker to act (biting) than neutered males. 

Leroy reacts terribly on the leash sometimes too when he is super excited. But all he does is jump up on his hind legs and punch me. He nearly chokes himself trying to get to whatever is exciting him. I understand how hard it can be to control an overly excited dog on the leash. Sorry I could not offer more advice but I hope you find the answers you are looking for here!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you need to start work with a really good trainer ASAP - probably one-to-one, rather than in a group at this stage. And I would take great care NOT to work with a trainer who uses confrontational or coercive methods, including "corrections" - it sounds as if these are pushing him further and further towards a serious reaction. 

It could be part of the problem is consistency - you say you try each method several times, but it takes many, many repetitions, as I am sure you know from working with your Rottie. And your poodle is now an adolescent, with all the joys that brings! I really do think this is one for the professionals, but do seek out a qualified, experienced trainer who is committed to reward based methods.

There has been a ecent discussion on when to neuter - see http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/18444-squatting-lifting-leg.html


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> I'm sorry you are going through that with your poodle! Some of the stuff you mentioned sound un-poodley to me. I'm unconcerned that he growls and tries to bite YOU, the owner. I could maybe understand if he did that with another dog. I do wonder how your dog views you, as a leader? Or as a playmate that won't let him do things? (hence the biting/growling) - I don't want to get too into dog psychology cause there are people here better with that than me - but just wondering who grooms him?? I can see him being reactive with a groomer, but perhaps not - because he wouldn't have anything to get riled up about there, necessarily. I think the neutering may help, but I heard it takes several weeks for the hormones to level out. I just know when I groom intact males, they are moody and quicker to act (biting) than neutered males.
> 
> Leroy reacts terribly on the leash sometimes too when he is super excited. But all he does is jump up on his hind legs and punch me. He nearly chokes himself trying to get to whatever is exciting him. I understand how hard it can be to control an overly excited dog on the leash. Sorry I could not offer more advice but I hope you find the answers you are looking for here!


Any chance he is trying to play? The only time my dogs have ever growled and "bitten" me is when they are were younger and a bit too excited about me walking out in the backyard with them. It still happens every now and then if I've been gone a little too long and let them outside to play when I get home.  
(Not that it isn't a behavior that needs to be trained out, but it's much more comforting to know your dog is just being silly and overexcited than aggressive). 

I remind then that this is unacceptable behavior by turning around. Tiger or Millie will get the hint and sit, waiting for my affection. 


I've had a few holes put in yoga pants and little bruises on my arms from my own overexcited adolescent dogs! The "let's play, Mommy!" jump and nip is the worst. The grass biting and play growing sounds a lot like it _could be_ play. Does this sound at all possible? If so, I would refuse to give your dog any attention if they do this and ask for a sit, praising with attention. I'm admittedly not the best when it comes to training dogs (mine have some bad habits!) so hopefully someone else can chime in on the best way to eradicate this.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

LoveDog2 said:


> Sometimes after a 30 minute game of fetch and chase (he chasing me)


Not sure I would continue doing these sorts of activities with a reactive dog... I can see where the game of chase (him chasing you) could get his emotions, adrenaline, prey-drive up quite high and he's having trouble bringing it back down. You might think it's tiring him out, but it's really revving him up!

Can you do any more THOUGHT provoking stuff with him rather than ENERGY provoking stuff... For example, do a "hide and seek" game with some high value treats or toys. Hide some fun stuff outside (under buckets, behind trees, around corners) and ask him to use his brain, eyes and nose to find them. This way he's not focusing on what he's going to do to you when he catches you during the chase game!

I've never had an intact adolescent male dog before (besides the ones we housed at the shelter I managed - but then I didn't have to LIVE with them) so I'm not familiar with other specific solutions, but I second fjm's suggestion to find a good trainer who can help you get things under control!

Good luck!

Barb


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

Thank you both. 

I think you are right about the one on one. I will call the obedience club and ask for a recommendation. And I agree with you that the trainer can't be confrontational. It was my original intent to do a gentler kind of training than with my Rottie (Who was simple to train, never had to do anything more than twice and he had it down. He was not a submissive dog, either, except with me.)but nothing seems to get to this very dominant Poodle except corrections - with ME, anyway. I will enjoy learning a kinder method from a professional if that will work.


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

Playing...hmmm...food for thought.

When we do the chasing it is when he fetches the ball, sometimes I will run to a different area and he has to run after me to get where I am. He will just run up to me and drop the ball and wait for the next toss.

Toward the end of our fetch time I have lately been having him in a down stay while I go hide the ball so he has to go find it. He likes that game. I haven't made it very hard yet because sometimes he seems like he can't find it when it's just behind a tree!

He is very calm by the time we are heading home. These incidents happen while we are calmly on our way back (after about 10 minutes) AND even during a late afternoon walk when we haven't played fetch at all, maybe after about 40 minutes.

He has even done it walking home from a romp with other dogs and his tongue was hanging out at the start of the walk back.

The times when he is overexcited at another dog nearby...that is just straight up "NO I want to do what I want and I am growling at you because you are in my way!".

I will try turning my back to him but don't want to get nipped on the rump!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My first thought is your dog is playing with you. It would be great to find someone with a dog he could be lose with to play. I just don't think a puppy on a leash is ever going to be played out. A dog trainer is a great ideal, just to set your mind to ease. Good Luck!


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

Well, for our early evening walk today we went to the park and stopped and talked to lots of people, lots of kids. Always a great place for socializing. I decided to look at the leash pulling differently and saw it as wanting to play.

And I think you guys are right about that. He acts like a crazy little kid who gets would up and doesn't know what to do with his energy. After talking with people and getting petted he would grab the leash and start growling and pulling. I just ignored him and didn't get upset. I think the change in my energy maybe helped, I dunno. But he didn't seem to escalate. 

He was the worse as we were leaving the park and it was just the two of us. Even still, it wasn't as bad as usual.

I will try the same approach when he gets crazy when another dog comes nearby that excites him. I mean, I won't be able to ignore it, but if I can see it differently and not get upset and not try to make him sit or lie down, maybe it won't escalate. Perhaps I can just head in a different direction. Not really sure on that one.

I'll still consult with a professional. Thank you all for your help.


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## Nova (Mar 11, 2012)

This may have been suggested, I haven't had time to read through all of these posts, but for aggressive behavior I've found something that works wonders. However, you have to be confidant in you, and you have to put off the vibes that YOU are in control. 

When a puppy or dog is giving me attitude, I gently but quickly flip them on their back and stand over them on all fours. I stare at the eyes, and if the dog growls, and give a sharp "ah-ah!" sound. When the squirming/attitude stop and the dog finally submits (by relaxing and looking away), I let them up and give them lots of praise.

If your dog is large and actually has bitten you or you think he might bite you, it would be safer to use a muzzle if you're unsure while doing this. Please be aware that the bigger dogs can give you quite a kick when trying to get back onto their fours.

Aggression is one thing I won't tolerate from any of the dogs I have or have fostered, nip it in the bud asap before it gets out of hand. I have never had to use this on a poodle, but I've used this technique on a variety of dogs (pits, hounds, chow chows, healers) and it has worked every single time so I'd assume it'd work on a poodle as well.

Good luck!


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

fjm said:


> I think you need to start work with a really good trainer ASAP - probably one-to-one, rather than in a group at this stage. And I would take great care NOT to work with a trainer who uses confrontational or coercive methods, including "corrections" - it sounds as if these are pushing him further and further towards a serious reaction.


Agreed! Look for trainer who is also an *Animal Behaviourist*. They will come to your house & watch, assess, advise. 

*"The testosterone level in male puppies increases to 5-7 times higher than in an adult dog by age 10 months, and then gradually falls to a normal adult level by about 18 months of age."*

Take note- he's coming into his testerone peak. Not great news while you're living it but it explains a lot & it does mellow. There are theories that say that a dog will halt in the developmental stage they were at spaying/neutering. Many advise to let them work through the teen years (our months) to grow into the mature gentleman they surely can become. This is, of course, a subject for debate & only you can decide what's best

Personal experience: my intact male is just shy of 14 mo. His hormone level is really levelling off nicely. Other intact males don't react to him they way they used to, say, even 2mo ago.


Health pros/cons to early neutering:http://www.claircrest.com/Problemswithearlyspay-neuter.pdf


My dog training school has a FANTASTIC website:<> <> <> DIAMONDS in the RUFF - Training for Dogs & Their People<> <> <> The owner has developed videos that many of this countries top trainers utilise. Here's her list of Good Games Bad Games

*"Control the games, control the dog,"* says British behaviorist John Rogerson.

Bad game: "Catch me if you can"
You stomp, he runs - or worse, dog grabs something and you try to catch him to get it back. [ A possessive power trip for the dog, teaches him that he can out-run / out-smart / out-maneuver you. Makes him impossible to catch if he ever gets out! ]
Good game: "Hide and Seek"
- You hide and the dog searches until he finds you. [ Teaches the dog to come when called and how to find you when he can't see you ] ... or hide a toy or a biscuit and encourage him to find it - an excellent "scenting" game!

Bad game: "Tug of War" for keeps.
The dog wrestles the toy from you, sometimes growling, and wins, running off with the toy. [ A major power trip and confidence builder for your dog. Often turns into a "catch me if you can" game. ]
Good game: "Tug of War" on YOUR terms!
You present the toy and invite the dog to play. You make all the rules! "Take it" "Pull!" "Out" The game begins and ends when you say so, and when the game is over, you keep the toy until the next game! [ A leadership exercise - use sparingly. In case of over-stimulation, the game ends abruptly. Teaches self- control.] 

Bad game: "Throw the ball!"
Dog pushes his ball at you, staring intently, ordering you to "throw the ball !!!" and then snatches it just as you reach for it. When he does allow you to throw it, he dances around teasing you with it instead of delivering it to you. [ A power trip for the dog, teaches him that he can give you orders. 
Good game: "Fetch"
You bring out the ball and invite a controlled game of "fetch" - the game becomes a training session: "sit" "wait" "get it" "bring it" "out" and you put the ball away until the next game! [ Pack leaders get to decide when and what the rules are, and when the game ends. Always stop when the dog would like to play longer. Leave him wanting more! ]

Bad game: Wrestling and play fighting.
OOPS! Encourages jumping up, mouthing, biting, chasing and pits the dog's strength against the owner. A definite confidence builder. Teaches the dog he can "run for higher office" and win.

Good game: Tricks!
Exercise your dog's mind! Teach your dog to sit up, roll over, shake hands, or even balance a biscuit on his nose!

*Great game: Mind Games.
Build brain power! Teach your dog the names of his toys or names of family members. Teach him to deliver notes or find your car keys!*


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

*Ack!*



Nova said:


> When a puppy or dog is giving me attitude, I gently but quickly flip them on their back and stand over them on all fours. I stare at the eyes, and if the dog growls, and give a sharp "ah-ah!" sound. When the squirming/attitude stop and the dog finally submits (by relaxing and looking away), I let them up and give them lots of praise.
> 
> If your dog is large and actually has bitten you or you think he might bite you, it would be safer to use a muzzle if you're unsure while doing this. Please be aware that the bigger dogs can give you quite a kick when trying to get back onto their fours.
> 
> ...


Oh Nova, this worries me to extremes. That is an old school methodology proven ineffective in all but the most extreme cases. The _alpha roll _should never *EVER* be attempted by a non professional. It is frightening & confusing to a dog.... & with one that is, or could be, reactive- _especially_ dangerous. 

In wild dog & wolf packs, the alphas are benevolent leaders. They lead with quiet authority, not through physical force. Dogs are pack animals & look to us for guidance. They trust us to keep them safe. What do they learn this way?.... that we are scary & unpredictable bullies. Who would trust & follow that? 

Poodles are _extremely_ sensitive & thrive with consistent leadership & positive training methods. They are also, capitol *S,* smart, taking maybe 3 consistent instances to learn what works (behaviour is repeated) & what doesn't (behaviour is extinguished.) Personally, I want a _relationship_ with my dog & strive to encourage him to make rewarding choices... yes, choices. Poodles are thinking dogs, guide them & you will have a loyal companion instead of a pet.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd also go for getting a behaviourist or trainer involved. It's useful to have a second pair of eyes.

Is it possible it is adolescent poodle high spirits? My miniature, at about that age, was a whirling dervish of energy, and also very vocal, with a repertoire of grunts, grumbles, growls, etc. that had nothing to do with aggression and everything to do with expressing his opinion of the world :smile:.

Exercise, mental & physical, helps. As do games that foster cooperation. "Find it" is a wonderful game, either inside or out.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thanks, Kloliver, for saying exactly what I was thinking about "Alpha rolls" - so many dogs have been terrified, and so many people bitten because of a complete misunderstanding of how wolves behave, and a false extension of this to dog behaviour. 

I am so glad you are getting results from simply keeping calm and looking at the behaviour from a different angle, OP. If you know any nice dogs that your pup could play with regularly, it would probably work wonders! Have you read Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash"? It is brilliant, and I am sure you would find it helpful.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

fjm said:


> Have you read Jean Donaldson's "Culture Clash"? It is brilliant, and I am sure you would find it helpful.


Check Suggested Reading for a great list of books

"BONES WOULD RAIN FROM THE SKY: DEEPENING OUR RELATIONSHIPS WITH DOGS" by Suzanne Clothier
"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell PhD
"Don't Shoot the Dog" by Karen Pryor
The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller
"Why Does My Dog?" by John Fisher
"How Dogs Learn" by Mary R. Burch Ph.D. & Jon S. Bailey, Ph.D.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

I am certainly glad that you posted this, and I am learning a lot from the responses. My young boy seems to have a "streak of independance", and I am putting that gently. I hope we get a good bond and good training early on and are able to avoid getting to the point you are at, but with a big male and raging hormones, I could easily be there when the time comes.

I am sorry that you are going through this, because it sounds so totally frustrating when you obviously love your boy so much.

I am trying to remind myself, back in time, my husband and I actually tried to rehome a dog once, because we could not handle two big, huge dobes. They were teenagers, and they seemed insane. The rehoming didn't happen; and by the time we were about to lose our minds, the dogs calmed down and were the most wonderful companions ever for the rest of their lives. I couldn't have asked for calmer, sweeter big babies and they were such an absolute joy to have around, that....

here I am with a spoo puppy (telling myself it will all be fine)...hahaha

Please keep us updated.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Speaking of *Jean Donaldson*, here's an interesting article *liljaker *just posted in another thread:

Modern Dog Training vs. Cesar Millan
*BF mine.*


> The big watershed in dog training is whether or not to include pain and fear as means of motivation. In the last twenty years the pendulum swing has been toward methods that use minimal pain, fear or intimidation - or none at all.
> 
> The force-free movement has been partly driven by improved communication from the top. *Applied behaviorists, those with advanced degrees in behavior, and veterinary behaviorists, veterinarians who have completed residencies specializing in behavior problems are in greater abundance than in previous decades, and there is much more collaboration between these fields and trainers on the front lines. These two professions are quite unified on the point that the use of physical confrontation and pain is unnecessary, often detrimental and, importantly, unsafe.*
> ...





> The force-free movement gains momentum every year and a sure sign of this is that many trainers in the other camps resort to murkier and murkier euphemisms to disguise their more violent practices and retain their market share. Stressed dogs aren't "shut down," they're "calm." It's not strangling, it's "leading." As a committed devotee of the "dog-friendly" camp, I am therefore, along with my colleagues here at The San Francisco SPCA, somewhat agog at the stunning success of "The Dog Whisperer". This is pretty ferocious stuff by anybody's standards. The National Geographic Channel even runs a disclaimer banner at the bottom of the screen admonishing people to "not try this at home," a warning notably absent on home improvement shows or "Nanny 911". Many have suggested that the cloaking of corporal punishments and hazing in mystical language, promise of instant results, high octane telegenicity of Cesar Milan and lucky connections with Los Angeles celebrity clients are sufficient explanation for the Dog Whisperer phenomenon. The one with the best buzz words wins. But I don't know.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Just an observation that ties fairly closely with yr dog's actions.

When Tonka and I are out on our standard walks . . morning and evening for the usual reasons . . . he will often get 'frisky' right after loosing some body weight. Immediately dancing, twisting, and wanting to grab the leash in his mouth to play Tug.

His leash is a tape retractable so this definitely is NOT allowed . . . but I carry his Tug toy with us and offer that to him. This toy is abt 4' long and made of braided fabric that's knotted at both ends . . . pretty heavy-duty stuff.

In your case, I would keep the game in the mode of the 'good game' of Tug. Don't let the dog get the toy away from u. Control the situation yourself. It may not change his behaviour much (I'm in the camp that thinks he may grow out of this aggressive play behaviour) but it certainly can't hurt.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I really like Countryboy's idea. I actually am taking CGC prep classes right now and this lady has an out of control goldendoodle. Jumps all over his owner, yanks on the leash, etc. Our trainer has the owner just turn her body when he jumps on her (I haven't seen it do much good yet but I think that's the best "correction" for this situation when sticking to positive training.) Since that wasn't working, they decided to redirect the behavior by having her carry a tug toy at all times for loose leash walking. The dog gets to carry it and they get to play some controlled games of tug. 

Sounds like your dog might just be an energetic and/or high drive adolescent. Some of the more drivey poodles can be a bit more difficult than those low drive couch potatoes, especially when young and without sufficient output. We've got both types in this household!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

The other part of not using force to train, the part that many people forget, is that you must show or teach the dog what he IS supposed to do, rather than punish / "correct" him for doing what he's NOT supposed to do.

The trainer I admire, Susan Garrett, calls this "living in Do-Land," and it involves a change in thinking. My puppy wants to, say, run ahead of me and practically pull the leash out of my hand, taking me for a drag instead of me taking him for a walk.  A "traditional" trainer would focus almost exclusively on how to get the dog to "stop pulling." This might involve yanking him back by the leash, putting progressively nastier and nastier collars on him, or eventually alpha-rolling him because he's trying to be top dog by pulling you around.

Living in Do-Land, you instead ask, "What do I want the dog to DO?" Well, I want him to walk with a slack lead, in the vincinity of my side. Okay, so now all my training efforts are going to be focused on teaching him that being on a slack lead by my side is the best place in the world to be. To do that, you have to ask Susan Garrett's other main question: "Where's the value?" What does the dog like, what does he enjoy, what does he want? For most dogs, food is a good bet, for others, a tug. For the walking example, he wants to get to places and smell them and move forward. Okay, so now, let's do two things:

1. Build value for being at my side.
2. The *only* way the dog will get what he wants on a walk is by being by my side on a slack lead.

Okay, so, while not on a walk, just around the house, I feed the dog treats when he's at my side. Make being at my side the most wonderful place in the world. Get him predisposed to wanting to be at my side.

Now, on a walk, two fold plan: when dog is roughly at my side with a slack leash, we walk. When the leash goes tight, we stop. Eventually--it might take a long time with a dog who's learned bad habits--he will step back and slacken the leash, and I will instantly move forward. It might take the dog a bit to realize just *what* is making me stop or move forward, but eventually it will sink in. Plus, he's been practicing the idea of being at my side being a good thing, so it might occur to him to try that, too. When he's at my side, he might get a random treat, or I might suddenly pull out a toy and play with him. And, whoo-hoo!--we keep walking"

Of course all this starts in really familiar places, like the back yard, then the front, then a "boring" section of the block. You can't start out in Squirrel Park and expect to make good progress! 

Eventually you add in things like, "go see," for giving him permission to go off and sniff somewhere, and he has to be sitting at your side before he will hear "go see," or whatever your criteria will be.

I used the example here of walking on leash, but this same philosophy can be applied to anything: Dog jumps up on owner when the owner comes home after work? Okay, instead of focusing on what we DON'T want, focus on what we DO want. Turning away is a good start as far as teaching the dog that he won't get the attention he craves by jumping up...but is he getting enough constant, consistent reinforcement and praise and treats for greeting his owner with four on the floor or in a sit? Greeting in a sit or stand must become the most wonderful, valuable thing in the world to that dog, and the only way to get what he wants. 

Being a positive trainer means manipulating the dog's reinforcement so that what you want him to do is what has value to him. Sometimes that takes more ingenuity and patience it takes to fling the dog to the ground and "show him who's boss." I'd rather show him who has the cookies and the toys and access to all the fun stuff in the whole wide world. :angel2:

Sorry so long-winded. I got on a roll.

--Q


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

A visual aid to accompany Quossom's post:
Silky Leash – How to Train Leash Walking

& more on Youtube


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

A good suggestion from Country Boy and a wonderful post from Quossom! 

I also am quite opposed to any alpha rolling or otherwise getting aggressive with your dog. You want your dog to respect and TRUST you. He will not trust you if you start acting erratic and scary and your relationship will suffer.

Not having seen your dog, it sounds like he is coming into his adolescent months (a trying time with most dogs!) and that it's play/excitement--not aggression.

My mini poo had loads of energy at this age and was testing me every chance he got. He would grab the leash in his mouth and try to play tug with it. He would jump up on me. He would bark at me to demand attention. I could not provide enough exercise for him... he could go for hours a day. (Off leash running was a great help though.)

I just ramped up his training, did not allow him to be pushy with me (I'd put him on leash or in his crate for a time out if he was getting barky and demanding). gave him LOTS of exercise and just reminded him that I was the provider of all good thing (food, treats, toys, play, attention) and if he wanted those good things he had to follow the house rules. 

I will admit that during this time it was very hard not to get frustrated with him. But I tried really hard never to yell or get physical with him when he was being naughty. He was like a 3-year-old child testing his boundaries. In time, he settled down and went back to being a very good boy. 

Even today, he still gets excited and riled up at times. Sometimes he gets the zoomies (racing around) while growling/barking. It's just his way of expressing joy and excitement! After doing this for about three to five minutes, he stops and is just mellow. Of course, my mini only weighs 16 pounds, and I could imagine that this zooming and growling would look a lot scarier in a large spoo.


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

This is something I read about and I tried wrestling him to the ground to dominate him, grabbing him by the scruff of the neck. He is already about 65 pounds and lightening fast. It was very difficult but I did get him down. I couldn't get on top of him or hold him there, though. He popped back up and started all over!

The idea of a muzzle is a thought. When would I put it on him? If it is already on him when we head out for our walk, won't this naturally deter him from bad behavior? Would he return to bad behavior once removed?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

LoveDog2 said:


> This is something I read about and I tried wrestling him to the ground to dominate him, grabbing him by the scruff of the neck. He is already about 65 pounds and lightening fast. It was very difficult but I did get him down. I couldn't get on top of him or hold him there, though. He popped back up and started all over!
> 
> The idea of a muzzle is a thought. When would I put it on him? If it is already on him when we head out for our walk, won't this naturally deter him from bad behavior? Would he return to bad behavior once removed?


Please do not do this. I am begging you. 

This is an outdated, disproven, TERRIBLE technique. It will destroy your relationship with your dog and potentially could escalate things to a dangerous level.

PLEASE find yourself a qualified trainer and start working with him/her soon.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

*Dominance = counterproductive & LAZY*

_Forgive_ me everyone for quoting myself [ugh] but I don't think the msg is getting across to the OP.



Kloliver said:


> That is an old school methodology proven ineffective in all but the most extreme cases. The _alpha roll _should never *EVER* be attempted by a non professional. It is frightening & confusing to a dog.... & with one that is, or could be, reactive- _especially_ dangerous.
> 
> In wild dog & wolf packs, the alphas are benevolent leaders. They lead with quiet authority, not through physical force. Dogs are pack animals & look to us for guidance. They trust us to keep them safe. What do they learn this way?.... that we are scary & unpredictable bullies. Who would trust & follow that?
> 
> Poodles are _extremely_ sensitive & thrive with consistent leadership & positive training methods. They are also, capitol *S,* smart, taking maybe 3 consistent instances to learn what works (behaviour is repeated) & what doesn't (behaviour is extinguished.) Personally, I want a _relationship_ with my dog & strive to encourage him to make rewarding choices... yes, choices. Poodles are thinking dogs, guide them & you will have a loyal companion instead of a pet.





LoveDog2 said:


> This is something I read about and I tried wrestling him to the ground to dominate him, grabbing him by the scruff of the neck. He is already about 65 pounds and lightening fast. It was very difficult but I did get him down. I couldn't get on top of him or hold him there, though. He popped back up and started all over!
> 
> The idea of a muzzle is a thought. When would I put it on him? If it is already on him when we head out for our walk, won't this naturally deter him from bad behavior? Would he return to bad behavior once removed?



*LoveDog2. I also beg you not to go this route. Others have opined their support for positive methods so I'm wondering why you're gravitating towards such a counter-productive old school approach... most lay-person muzzle usage is just plain lazy & harmful to the relationship. 

Please please please get thee to positive (ideally clicker training) classes- do not delay. He's a teenager & even the best trained from puppyhood teen :angel: will test boundaries :devil: (albeit not as painfully.) Find a trained animal behaviourist; a well-rounded positive method school will have one on staff. If you need help looking, pls let me/ us know, I'd be happy to google, call to interview & point you in the right direction*


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

Oh my goodness! I had responded directly after seeing the post about the alpha roll and then all the other posts showed up. I just now have read them.

This is such a good lesson for me. I was only familiar with the old school methods of training and I see how easily I can fall back into thinking that will work! The new ways are so much more appealing! 

Thank you all for the wealth of information and resources. I am going to go to the classes that we are signed up for (they prefer gentler methods) and also speak with a behaviorist.

On this morning's walk home (after fetch and hide and seek) when Curry started biting at the leash I once again made light of it and I think it helped him to let it go. I worry that he will bite me accidently when biting for the leash because he does catch part of me at times!

Thank you all again for the encouragement to seek a gentle way to guide my boy to better behavior.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

LoveDog2 said:


> On this morning's walk home (after fetch and hide and seek) when Curry started biting at the leash I once again made light of it and I think it helped him to let it go. I worry that he will bite me accidently when biting for the leash because he does catch part of me at times!
> 
> Thank you all again for the encouragement to seek a gentle way to guide my boy to better behavior.


You are SOOOOOO welcome. I'm excited that you're embracing a much more fun & rewarding approach for both of you. A few more tidbits if you'd like to file them away for future use: whenever he lays teeth on you, even if by accident, yelp like you're hospital bound & whatever fun is happening stops immediately. If he acts up on leash cross your arms, lift your chin & turn away. Instead of saying no, try saying 'oops' or 'try again.' It's almost impossible to say those harshly & he'll get the point.


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## afkar (Dec 9, 2011)

I have a youngster (14mths) who loves to carry things & will grab the leash if there is nothing else when walking all three together), but this is redirected to activity or toys easily. My middle boy (now 2yo) with very high drive & energy & could have been like your boy if given the wrong handling. Both my youngsters have a load of energy & have been trained with positive only methods. Distraction of unwanted behaviours to wanted ones is definitely the best way to go with clicker & rewards as tools to help along the way. I have an older girl (7yo) who is the one who always sets the good example & reminds me of what is to come for the other two I hope. I agree with the plenty of "good games" & have the added advantage of Joey being very focused on his tracking which is a great reinforcement.. (Sit for harness etc, & wait for the Magic Word "Tracking" when the fun begins. No controlled sit then nothing happens until he does. He will quiver but the sit is definite. It is hard to live through when the hormones hit but if you are considering neutering perhaps it is worth talking to your vet about the timing of it..


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

My vet recommends waiting to at least 14 months before neutering. That was my plan until now. But with this help from you all I think I will keep holding out until then, if possible. 

Curry is being an angel today. We are playing hide and seek which he loves and doing a lot of short grooming sessions which he generally fusses about but I can sometimes get him to tolerate. I think because I have changed my expectations and my thinking, he is calmer!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

LoveDog2 said:


> Oh my goodness! I had responded directly after seeing the post about the alpha roll and then all the other posts showed up. I just now have read them.
> 
> This is such a good lesson for me. I was only familiar with the old school methods of training and I see how easily I can fall back into thinking that will work! The new ways are so much more appealing!
> 
> ...



It's _outstanding_ to see how you sought advice, thought things over and made the positive changes to get results already! _Woohoo_ for you, and for Curry! I just love a win-win, _way to go!_ Isn't it amazing what an open mind and a willingness to learn can do for us? Why it makes us nearly as smart as a poodle!! Wish you continued good luck and enjoyment of your boy.:thumb:


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Kloliver said:


> My dog training school has a FANTASTIC website:<> <> <> DIAMONDS in the RUFF - Training for Dogs & Their People<> <> <> The owner has developed videos that many of this countries top trainers utilise. Here's her list of Good Games Bad Games
> 
> *"Control the games, control the dog,"* says British behaviorist John Rogerson.
> 
> ...


Oops. I do all the BAD games with my dogs. :embarrassed:


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

tokipoke said:


> Oops. I do all the BAD games with my dogs. :embarrassed:


Sit, Tokipoke.
Down..... head down, now stay :aetsch:



Chagall's mom said:


> It's _outstanding_ to see how you sought advice, thought things over and made the positive changes to get results already! _Woohoo_ for you, and for Curry! I just love a win-win, _way to go!_ Isn't it amazing what an open mind and a willingness to learn can do for us? Why it makes us nearly as smart as a poodle!! Wish you continued good luck and enjoyment of your boy.:thumb:


LoveDog2, sometimes it can be difficult to let go of old ways of thinking. Kudos to you!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

LoveDog2, I also had to get over years of immersion in old-style training methods, but it's well worth it to move to reward-based training. The dog I have now is confident and eager to work with me. More importantly, he never gets that cautious, wary look in training that I remember from previous dogs.

I found adolescence a VERY hard time with a poodle, but it passes, trust me! I can remember one time when the mine had an episode of whirling around the room at full speed, leaping and grabbing at everything, while yipping and growling. My partner (dog novice) looked at me in horror and asked "what is WRONG with him?!?!" :smile:

There's a good reading list here if you are interested, and there is a trainer on Youtube who posts some really excellent short training videos; search on Kikopup.

Good luck!


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

Good news! I had a stroke of insight last night on our walk. Curry found a ball along the way that was just the right size and he happily carried it most of the way. He only tried to grab the leash once, when I took the ball away after he dropped it several times. I continued walking, ignoring the behavior and when he walked nicely I gave him back the ball and he held it all the way home.

But that is not when I had the insight. This morning after our big play he immediately - and vigorously - was pulling at the leash and nothing would deter him and we could not proceed forward. Then it popped in my head that he needs something in his mouth! Duh! Someone maybe already suggested this but it takes time for great ideas to penetrate my skull sometimes.

Curry is happiest on a walk when he finds anything he can carry in his mouth. So, I gave him our fetch ball and he was delighted to carry it most of the way home. When he dropped it for the third time, I picked it up and put it in my pocket. He started pulling at the leash, but not vigorously. After walking ahead a little way I gave him the water bottle to hold and voila! Happy, calm dog.

Just thought I would post this in case anyone else is having trouble like this. I guess it's true that Poodles really do better when they have a job.


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## LoveDog2 (Mar 28, 2012)

And P.S. Thank you for the great info and reading lists and resources. It's great to know I am not alone. And I have to laugh at JE-UK's partner's exclamation! Haha. I think something is wrong with MY dog, too, sometimes and then I realize it's probably ME who has the problem.:hmmmm2:


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

I am just reading this thread now, and you already have a ton of great advice. I just wanted to let you know when I read about the pulling/jumping/growling on the way home - I had flash backs to about 4-5 months ago! My girl would do this pretty often. It wasn't agressive, it was more play - but I worried of what could happen. I knew I could handle her, but what if someone else, like my Mom had her... it wouldn't end well. I had to be very firm with her - shorten the leash, put her in a sit - in a strong voice, and I didn't ease up until she was sitting nicely for at least 10-15 seconds. Then we would continue our walk, if it happened again, repeat. She is a dream to walk now - she knows I'm the boss and nothing fun happens if she acts like that. I think it had a lot to do with her age and pushing me - plus she has a fairly strong drive instinct. It sounds like you are well on your way to fixing this, and I just wanted to let you know I've been there! Best of luck!


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