# What clips can you show in UKC?



## spindledreams

Both the UKC and the AKC describe the clips legal in their conformation show rings. Both standards can be found in full online.

UKC is not as strict about clips as AKC and the most common clip varies with the number of poodles in your area competing in both AKC and UKC. Here it is about 50/50 between the AKC style Conti with no hairspray or product and the UKC style sporting clip. Both can do equally well.


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## outwest

You could show in a scandi. UKC says a puppy, sporting clip, continental or english saddle, but I have seen all different clips in UKC - even one with bracelets. It didn't seem to matter.


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## Liafast

I have seen ALL clips including a miami and german clip in the UKC.


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## spindledreams

Yep know someone that shows her Champions in a German Clip, my two older kids are in a sporting clip as I wait for Jazz to grow out enough for her HCC again. She got cut down during coat change/mud week.


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## mvhplank

I'm always afraid I'll run up against the one UKC judge who is strict about the rules that state that either a Continental (and its variations, like English Saddle or "historically correct Continental," with a scissored cap instead of the top-knot) or "sporting" is an approved clip. But I've seen other clips, and read in other forums about judges complaining about the variety of clips they see.

Around here (south-central Pennsylvania) the breed dogs mostly show up in Continentals. Neely finished is UKC championship in a modified historically correct Continental (see picture) with no hip pom-poms, but he'll compete for a while in the Champion class in a sporting clip.










He finished his UKC championship with a group 1!


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## spindledreams

I have to agree with the judges that if you are showing you really should use one of the clips described in the standard. There is enough leeway in the UKC clips that you can decide how much or how little hair you want to keep up. Granted it is tempting to use a clip not described since they are directed "_Quality is never to be sacrificed in favor of the type of clip in which a dog is presented_." which means a lot of clips not described are on dogs that can and do win due to their quality.


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## outwest

I really like the whole UKC philosophy. I only wish it were more accepted in the main stream. I wish that AKC wasn't so entwined with who was showing the dog and how much coat they had grown and how perfectly they are presented. I am looking forward to showing my Jazzy UKC in a sporting clip.


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## mvhplank

The classes I've shown in have been pretty small, maybe 5 or 6 dogs of all ages in Best in Breed, but I think in a larger class, a judge might "sort out" dogs in non-approved clips, just to make the final selection a little easier. I'm even a little wary about my chances in a sporting clip, but it's more of a lifestyle choice (MY lifestyle) than a decision to try to maintain big hair all the time for maybe 4 shows a year!


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## cavon

UKC shows must be a whole lot more casual in different parts of the US. In Canada, the northern US and at UKC Premier, you can show in a Continental (without product) a puppy clip - regardless of the dog's age, corded, English saddle or a sporting clip. I have been at shows where dogs were excused from the ring for being in a different clip and also when the judge did not feel that the sporting clip was done according to the specifications listed in the UKC website.

Here are photos of Finnegan in the sporting, the Puppy & the Continental:


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## mvhplank

cavon said:


> UKC shows must be a whole lot more casual in different parts of the US. In Canada, the northern US and at UKC Premier, you can show in a Continental (without product) a puppy clip - regardless of the dog's age, corded, English saddle or a sporting clip. I have been at shows where dogs were excused from the ring for being in a different clip and also when the judge did not feel that the sporting clip was done according to the specifications listed in the UKC website.
> <snip>


That's what I'm wary of--even a judge who doesn't specialize in poodles will recognize that a German or Scandi is NOT a Continental, Puppy, or Sporting clip. (The rules do allow for cords.) The judges I've seen have been very friendly and often offer advice to the newbies. Even other competitors will step in and help. 

But since I'm often chairman at our little shows, I better observe the letter of the rules, right?


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## cavon

LOL!! Well, I guess you should really set the standard, so to speak!!! ;-)

I have seen a lot of dogs win in the champion class in the sporting clip, so if you don't want to deal with all of the hair, I would say go with that clip.

The good thing about the UKC is that it is really about the quality of the dog, not the haircut or who is holding the other end of the leash. I have seen someone try to sneak in a pro handler and they were disqualified and I believe banned from showing in the UKC.

Go for it! Good Luck!!!


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## spindledreams

In our area the sporting clip seems to sit better with many of the judges then the full AKC type Conti. It was interesting at one show to watch a Parti that came in on Friday with a full on AKC type Conti, after each show that weekend his coat got shorter until the last show he was in an HCC type clip and looking much nicer in my opinion.


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## mvhplank

spindledreams said:


> In our area the sporting clip seems to sit better with many of the judges then the full AKC type Conti. It was interesting at one show to watch a Parti that came in on Friday with a full on AKC type Conti, after each show that weekend his coat got shorter until the last show he was in an HCC type clip and looking much nicer in my opinion.


Ya know, Neely started in a full continental, which (being between puppy coat and adult coat) was always matted 5 minutes after combing, and his top-knot never stayed looking nice. So his coat got progressively shorter, too, down into the HCC I posted pictures of, above.  Once I cut the show coat off, his wiry, correct-to-breed-standard, adult coat started up in earnest.


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## DreamAgility

I rather like more hair. Dreamer brother does ukc and in the spring hes going in a hcc. I personally don't like the way it looks on most dogs. Dreamers half brother is red like Finnegan and I just love the scandi. Since Dreamer and him have very similar characteristics and bodies I think she should look pretty well. But, I think with the Scandinavian clip you can turn it into a continental or hcc fairly easily without the rosettes. I love full legs and would like to keep them as long as possible until her first akc agility trials and then shes getting a miami.


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## Jacknic

The UKC standard gives only suggestions for trim, there is NO DQ and there is suppose to be no regard to grooming. With that said all three of my dogs that were #One in Top Ten were shown in continental trim. But I have finished dogs and earned two legs for their Grand Ch almost naked! She beat her big brother who was ranked #1 the year before, and then went on to win the Group. This photo is not very clear, but you can see she is rather stripped down, and not more then 1/2" all over except her face feet and base of tail --which had very little pom to it. One problem I would say with the Scani is that the judges are not use to seeing it (I have never seen a dog shown in it) and it could easily confuse their eye, which some judges are also confused by the continental as well.
[URL=http://s458.photobucket.com/user/kathyesio/media/PepperGr1edited_zps253f7363.jpg.html][/URL]


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## cavon

I would have to disagree with you regarding the DQ because of groom, because I have been at a show where it has happened. The standard is pretty clear about acceptable trims for conformation:

COAT

The Poodle has harsh, dense, curly coat. *For conformation exhibition, the coat may be presented naturally, corded, or in one of the traditional clips described below.*

Corded - The cords are tight and of even diameter but varying lengths. Cords may be longer on the mane, body coat, head and ears; shorter on puffs, bracelets and pompons.

Clips - In all of the traditional clips described below, the hair on the topskull may be left free or held in place by elastic bands, which may not be used elsewhere in the coat.
Puppy. The coat is long with the face, throat, feet and base of the tail shaved. A pompon shall be left on the end of the tail. The coat may be shaped to give a neat appearance.
English Saddle. The face, throat, feet, forelegs and base of tail are shaved, leaving puffs on the forelegs and a pompon on end of the tail. The hindquarters are covered with a short blanket of hair except for a curved shaved area on each flank. Each rear leg is circled by two shaved bands, one just above the stifle and one just above the hock joint. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped for balance.
Continental. Face, throat, feet and base of tail are shaved. Hindquarters are shaved with pompons on the hips optional. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. Legs are shaved leaving bracelets on the rear legs and puffs on the forelegs. A portion of the foreleg is shaved above the puff. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped for balance.
Sporting. Face, feet, throat and base of tail are shaved. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. Coat on the top of the head is scissored into a cap. The rest of the body and legs are trimmed following the outline of the dog. The body coat shall be no longer than 1 inch in length. Leg hair may be slightly longer.


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## Jacknic

I would like to know which show and which judge? The standard clearly states "MAY BE PRESENTED" it does not or never has said "HAS TOO". I have shown all over the country for many years with UKC have had multiple dogs in Top Ten, and multiple champions shown in many different trims. At UKC judging seminars it is clearly stated that there is NO DQ for trims. It also states in the standard under trims : 
"Quality is never to be sacrificed in favor of the type of clip in which a dog is presented."
There are only these
"DISQUALIFICATIONS

(A dog with a Disqualification must not be considered for placement in a conformation event, and must be reported to UKC.)

Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. (missing testicles) 
Viciousness or extreme shyness.
Albinism.
Any color other than described above.
Merle coloring.
Blue eyes, or any variation of, including flecks and marbling."

Can also be excused for product in the coat, or any hair additions.

Ribbons can be withheld for poor condition, dog that appears sick, or total lack of quality and type. Withheld ribbons is not considered a DQ, a dog would not be able to receive points towards it's championship but would still counted for Top Ten points.


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## spindledreams

Then why not leave her in a long puppy clip since there is no age restriction on it in UKC. That way not only will you have all the hair you want and will let her present the silhouette that they have come to recognize as poodle. 

But I do have to admit that I liked the look of my little brown boy in his puppy pants aka Scandinavian Puppy but since he is going to an AKC show we have to make sure it is all grown out and trimmed up so there is no hint of a mane/saddle separation for that show.


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## 3dogs

I had no problems showing in a Scandi. I have to admit though when I took Echo down in a Modern she was nicer looking. Since no product in hair too muchhair is a distraction & flops around. I saw a HCC with Tassel ears, so pretty. Do a clip that enhances good qualities in your poodles structure.


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## cavon

Jacknic said:


> I would like to know which show and which judge? The standard clearly states "MAY BE PRESENTED" it does not or never has said "HAS TOO". I have shown all over the country for many years with UKC have had multiple dogs in Top Ten, and multiple champions shown in many different trims. At UKC judging seminars it is clearly stated that there is NO DQ for trims. It also states in the standard under trims :
> *"Quality is never to be sacrificed in favor of the type of clip in which a dog is presented."*
> There are only these
> "DISQUALIFICATIONS
> 
> (A dog with a Disqualification must not be considered for placement in a conformation event, and must be reported to UKC.)
> 
> Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid. (missing testicles)
> Viciousness or extreme shyness.
> Albinism.
> Any color other than described above.
> Merle coloring.
> Blue eyes, or any variation of, including flecks and marbling."
> 
> Can also be excused for product in the coat, or any hair additions.
> 
> Ribbons can be withheld for poor condition, dog that appears sick, or total lack of quality and type. Withheld ribbons is not considered a DQ, a dog would not be able to receive points towards it's championship but would still counted for Top Ten points.


I am not about to provide the name of a judge, a club, or an exhibitor on a public forum. I have been at two different shows where dogs were excused from the ring because of grooming. One was brought into the ring in a Miami and the other was in a supposed sporting clip but the judge determined that it was a pet trim and therefore not allowable.

I believe that you are misinterpreting the "Quality" statement that I highlighted above. In my opinion, that statement refers to the allowable clips as listed in the standard. Why would certain clips be listed if there was no specific requirement? The "Quality" statement, in my opinion, means that if 5 poodles are brought into the ring each in one of the 5 allowable presentations, that the winner must not be judged based on the clip - for instance, a poorer quality dog presented in a continental should not win over a better quality dog presented in a sporting clip just because of the grooming. I also believe that this point was brought up and discussed at length in the judges briefing prior to conformation beginning at Premier last year.

Aside from dogs being excused because of grooming, I have also seen ribbons withheld because of the temperament of the dog in the ring.

Regardless of all of this, there may be judging differences in different areas and everyone only has to concern themselves with what is acceptable in their showing area.


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## mvhplank

cavon said:


> I am not about to provide the name of a judge, a club, or an exhibitor on a public forum. I have been at two different shows where dogs were excused from the ring because of grooming. One was brought into the ring in a Miami and the other was in a supposed sporting clip but the judge determined that it was a pet trim and therefore not allowable.
> <snip>
> 
> Regardless of all of this, there may be judging differences in different areas and everyone only has to concern themselves with what is acceptable in their showing area.


Ya know, UKC is very responsive to questions, and you (in general--not you, specifically, Cavon!) can email them and ask for an opinion.

Even though I have seen non-standard clips pass with no comment from the judges (on toy poodles) at our small shows, I wouldn't dare show my dog in a clip that rules didn't specifically say was acceptable. I have a very nice dog, but not an outstanding dog, and I'm certainly not going to invite extra scrutiny by committing the cardinal sin in any dog sport: _making the judge think!_

Anyway, I hope Neely will by my performance dog, and putting him in the breed ring has been a good way to introduce him to the hustle and bustle of shows without expecting an obedience or rally performance from him at the same time.


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## DreamAgility

Should I post a pictre to let you guys help me decide what to do with her?
Also, her nose has some liver atches that appeared this winter. Will these go away?


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## Jacknic

cavon said:


> Regardless of all of this, there may be judging differences in different areas and everyone only has to concern themselves with what is acceptable in their showing area.


I have shown dogs at Premier--MI for the past six years, Gateway --MO, the past two years, I have shown dogs in, OH, KY, IL, NY, SC and IN, under hundreds of judges, I can understand a judge using this as an excuse if the judge didn't want to pass the quality, but I have never seen a dog excused from the ring for trim, and was told by several judges they are not allowed to excuse for "trim" and that it has been brought up at Judging seminars multiple times.


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## Jacknic

DreamAgility said:


> Also, her nose has some liver atches that appeared this winter. Will these go away?


In creams and whites that is called a "snow nose" and once she is back in the sun it should return to it's original color.


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## tintlet

Cavon, could you send me the names of the Judges to my email? [email protected]. I sure would not want to hire one of these to judge our shows
thank you


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## cavon

I don't understand the concern. All the exhibitors have to do is follow the letter of the standard and put their dogs in one of the listed clips and then the judge makes no difference.


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## tintlet

the concern is Judges that are Judging clips incorrectly at a UKC show. Know of one that discounted a dog because the topknot was scissored above the ears and the body coat was not a 'smooth unbroken line". 

Judging is very difficult at best!! and some of these things are listed under "Judge discretion"


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## DreamAgility

Heres a recent picture if anyone has any thought on a good clip for her. I have scissored her a bit and her tk has grown a bit.


047 by meowsandy, on Flickr


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## cavon

Dreamer is very beautiful! Based on her current clip, I think the transition to a sporting clip would be the fastest for you. You will need to shave her neck, grow the hair back on her ears and if her tail is shaved down, grow a pompom on it.

Others might have more ideas for you, but based on her German trim, I think this would be the fasted road to showing her.


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## mvhplank

cavon said:


> I don't understand the concern. All the exhibitors have to do is follow the letter of the standard and put their dogs in one of the listed clips and then the judge makes no difference.


I agree. If you want to play, follow the rules without trying to be "creative."

Since UKC offers Total Dog ribbons for placements in both breed and performance at the same trial/show, I foresee that I won't be able to get "creative" with Neely's trim for a very long time (if I'm lucky).


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## DreamAgility

What age do judges start penalizing poodles for the coat? Dreamer has slightly wirey hair and then unchanged soft hair and sh is 14 months old.


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## tintlet

DreamAgility said:


> Heres a recent picture if anyone has any thought on a good clip for her. I have scissored her a bit and her tk has grown a bit.
> 
> 
> 047 by meowsandy, on Flickr


Nothing wrong with this clip right now. Shows a nice outline. can see the ears and how they are set, etc. Maybe get a bit of coat on the ears so judge can feel texture. the rules don't say how much coat has to be on the tail, and Ive seen them shown with just a small sanitary band around the base of the tail.

The nice thing about (most) UKC shows ,is the grooming does not make the dog.
What can happen is a good dog can look poorly by being in a non flattering clip. and a poor dog can be made to look like it is perfectly structured.

It's the Judges job to find the best dog, but don't make it hard on them


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## DreamAgility

Okay
That picture is about a month old, and her ears are getting a bit curly. I have scissored her rear and legs a bit, too. I would say her coat is about 3/4" long except for her tk and legs. Her tail is a very fat carrot right now, just waiting a bit longer to shave the base.
I think its best to wait until fall so I can drive myself. She is not registered yet, either.


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