# I am looking for a reputable Moyen Breeder in Northern California



## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Moyen isn't a recognized size in the u.s, so during your search your going to want to ask breeders for a "small standard" or "big mini"... Like how you can't buy a s-medium or a m-large. It's just the way it is.

Specifically, when your asking breeders, ask how tall mom/dad are at the withers, you want Mom & Dad to be between 15-20 inches at the withers.

You can use my words.

That will help you narrow it down for what your looking for, size being a priority for you.


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## Miss Daphne (Jul 3, 2021)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> Moyen isn't a recognized size in the u.s, so during your search your going to want to ask breeders for a "small standard" or "big mini".
> 
> Specifically, when your asking breeders, ask how tall mom/dad are at the withers, you want Mom & Dad to be between 15-20 inches at the withers.
> 
> ...


Hi thank you for the added information; I had originally been looking for miniature poodles in my area, but fell in love with Moyen after seeing it advertised by a breeder. I am just curious, if anyone knows if this is reputable trusted breeder ---> Milk Tea Poodles and Doodles I found her off the AKC marketplace, but she was not a club member nor a breeder of merit. I have read many times on this forum that breeders who offer paypal as a main payment option, is a red flag too.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Miss Daphne said:


> . I am just curious, if anyone knows if this is reputable trusted breeder ---> Milk Tea Poodles and Doodles I found her off the AKC marketplace, but she was not a club member nor a breeder of merit. I have read many times on this forum that breeders who offer paypal as a main payment option, is a red flag too.


 you can do better, much better. There’s a million red flags waving at this breeder from doodles and merle poodles.

As Basil said look for oversized miniature or small standards where both parents have had all the recommended health testing done etc. 

Both my older minipoo and my puppy is the size of a Fédération cynologique internationale (FCI) medium.


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## Miss Daphne (Jul 3, 2021)

Skylar said:


> you can do better, much better. There’s a million red flags waving at this breeder from doodles and merle poodles.
> 
> As Basil said look for oversized miniature or small standards where both parents have had all the recommended health testing done etc.
> 
> Both my older minipoo and my puppy is the size of a Fédération cynologique internationale (FCI) medium.


Thank you for confirming my doubts, that is very helpful indeed.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Breeders testing the parents for physical and genetic health concerns often saves you the cost and anguish of future health issues. This will be a family member for 10-15+ years. It's definitely important to find a good breeder.


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## Miss Daphne (Jul 3, 2021)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Breeders testing the parents for physical and genetic health concerns often saves you the cost and anguish of future health issues. This will be a family member for 10-15+ years. It's definitely important to find a good breeder.


Agreed on all counts. I'm in Northern California, if there are any breeders you know, please let me know


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

As others have mentioned, moyen is not a size category recognized by AKC. Reputable breeders working within that range are quite rare in North America. There was a bit of a fad for moyen about a decade ago, and a lot of sketchy breeders popped up. Many times these breeders would try to achieve the moyen size by crossing miniatures to standards. The results were sometimes dogs with wonky configuration that might not even mature within the desired size range. Fortunately, I'm seeing fewer of these opportunistic breeders lately; I think many have shifted over to miniature golden doodles and the like.

If I were looking for a moyen sized poodle for myself I'd consider Noir, in Missouri, and Karbit, in Texas even though it would require a plane trip. Two miniature breeders worth checking out are Moonstruck in Southern California and Ash's Mystical in Nevada. Both are AKC Breeder of Merit. Not Northern California, but still in your corner of the country.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi,

The other members have excellently covered the difficulties in finding a true medium as you noted, by importing them from countries of the FCI registry.

Proper health testing is a bit trickier. Miniatures and standards have different health issues and therefore different recommended testing for each by the PCA.

A member, curlflooffan, pointed out that many miniatures in the US and Canada, are actually in the medium (formerly moyen in the FCI) variety range:
*Medium Poodles*: Over 35 cm up to 45 cm. _(13.7 inches to 17.7 inches)_

15" is the top end for miniatures here with standards starting in at 15". Because there is a preferred size in the conformation ring, you're unlikely to find a standard below 20-21" since quality breeders are showing to prove their dogs meet the breed standard. Preferences have changed thru the years but this puts a limit on your choices in the smaller standard category.

Your best bet is that very, very, very small group of breeders importing mediums, or find a quality miniature breeder who breeds to the top end of the miniature range. Because of the (somewhat arbitrary) upper limits on the two smaller varieties (and some genetic history), toys and miniatures occasionally go oversize. Miniatures over 15" are still miniatures by genetics. Unfortunately, no breeder can guarantee what size a pup will end up.

My impression from our members with oversize miniatures is that they generally top out around 17". (I hope to be corrected if this isn't the case.)
The smallest standards of members that I remember are in that 20-21" range.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I may have found the health testing on the Poodle Club of France's site 


*For all sizes:* LARGE – MEDIUM – DWARF – TOY
*A* – Patellar dislocation

Provide a veterinary certificate stating:

Name and Address of the Owner,
Name, sex, date of birth, poodle identification number
Certifying that neither palpation nor the handling of fats make it possible to highlight patellar dislocation for unharmed dogs, that palpation and manipulation make it possible to highlight it in affected dogs. In this case, the degree of dislocation should be specified.
*B* – Certificate of eye examination

*C *– T.A.N. ( *The T.A.N.* (Natural Aptitude Test) is to assess the sociability of the dog in unusual situations or in everyday life:

*D* – Proof of exposure results (for the certification of the title of champion)

*E* – DNA identification


*For LARGE and MEDIUM (in addition to the above documents)*
*F* – Hip dysplasia: radiography is performed according to the classic positioning protocol. She is identified in the film with:


the name and address of the veterinarian who carried it out,
the name, sex, identification number, date of birth of the poodle
the date of taking of the photograph and its laterization (right or left side)

It shall be accompanied by a certificate attesting that the veterinary examiner has verified the identity of the dog and stating whether the photograph was taken under general anesthesia or not.

*Note: The CCF decided at its meetings on July 25, 2009 to extend these measures to all confirmations including dogs of French origin, which will be mandatory from January 1, 2011.*

Breeding rules of the Club du Piche de France (clubducanichedefrance.fr)


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Hi! I am the aformentioned European!

So in countries where FCI affiliated national clubs are the dominant kennel club you have 4 sizes of poodles (toy, miniature, medium and standard). In contrast in north america and the UK where you have only 3 (toy, miniature and standard).

This has led to what I highly suspect is a myth that there is a missing variety of poodle (moyen in french but also called medium or klein) in the US. The moyen size is not missing in the US, its just that FCI chooses to categorise the poodle into 4 rather than 3. 

It's like if I would bake a batch of homemade cookies and as happens with homemade baked goods they will vary in size. If I would then bag them up according to size I could either have two categories, small cookies and large cookies, or I could have three, small cookies, medium cookies and large cookies. But its still the same batch of cookies. 

There is also another layer of misunderstanding to this issue. From what I have learned from US poodleforumians who show in the AKC there is a preference in the american miniature poodles for dogs who are on the larger size of the variety. This means that a lot of AKC miniatures would actually be classified as moyen in an FCI show ring if measured. 

I actually suspect that if there is any 'missing' poodle variety in the US it is the European miniature also known as dwarf. I am getting an FCI miniature/dwarf she will probably be around 30cm. She has excellent pedigree and is a potential show prospect but in the US she would most likely be too big for the toy ring and too small for the miniature ring. 

The good news is that this really opens up what kind of breeders you can contact. Lots of excellent miniature breeders in the US. You won't have to limit yourself to those importing from Europe. If you are more worried about a puppy going over your preferred size limit then go for a miniature breeder who shows in conformation.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

On the question of health testing on imported dogs. 

Naturally in Europe the purebred community import or breed with dogs outside their country all the time. Welfare and health testing rules are determined by national clubs and breed clubs and not by the FCI and they do vary quite a bit. National clubs who are very strict on health testing (meaning they wont even registered the litter if both parents have not been tested) usually demand that the same rules apply for foreign studs or imported dogs. 

If a breeder has imported dogs just hold them to the same criteria as you would for american dogs. If they are using frozen sperm then it might be a bit more complicated because European breeders don't use centralised databases such as OFA so you might have to google a bit about the poodle club which the stud belongs or you might ask for copies of test the results from the breeder. 

If you have any doubts about or questions about FCI registered poodles let me know. I am far from being an expert but I got very good at googling pedigrees from all over Europe as I looked for my breeder.


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