# Breeders leaving tails undocked



## Cdnjennga

What size are you looking for? Standard?


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## McSandd

oops!!! sorry, yes standard would be the size


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Silken Poodles in Ontario does not dock. She breeds reds and partis.

I agree with Cbrands comment below. There is a huge difference between a straight ubdocked tail and a horribly curled undocked tail. My Flynn's is like a poker- straight as an arrow. And Quincy's has only a slight curve which can be hidden with a huge pom. Thinker's tail however was docked too long and has such a curve in it, sometimes he look like a curling rock!!! Personally I could not stand an undocked tail that has too much of a curve in it.


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## cbrand

After seeing that fabulous bitch that Kim Russel is showing, I can see the appeal of a full tail. However, that tail is so wonderful because it is straight and it has near perfect, 12 o'clock carriage. Are you going to be OK with a full tail that is lying on the back gay? What about a highly curled squirrel tail? Just something to think about.

I think Dogsinstyle of this board has a litter of Browns that have full tails.


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## pudel luv

We have two undocked standards. Both breeders were willing to work with us in our desire for undocked tails; however, it wasn't easy. Because we had to pick our dog out at day three, due to docking, we ended up having pick-of-the-litter. Depending on the breeder, you will pay extra due to the "pick" status. The choices of breeders in the US leaving tails undocked is very limited from my research. If you want a specific color, it limits the choices even further. Feel free to PM me if you want further details. Perhaps as the undocked tails become more accepted in the US, more breeders will go this route and open up the "undocked" door a bit .

In response to the curvature of the undocked tail: I have noticed that the tail often straightens significantly dependent on the dogs level of interest and excitement. In a relaxed state, the curvature can be more pronounced. When standing alert, it lifts up and out creating a straighter appearance. Just my observation from watching undocked tails for the past five years.


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## jonny cash

cbrand said:


> After seeing that fabulous bitch that Kim Russel is showing, I can see the appeal of a full tail. However, that tail is so wonderful because it is straight and it has near perfect, 12 o'clock carriage. Are you going to be OK with a full tail that is lying on the back gay? What about a highly curled squirrel tail? Just something to think about.
> 
> I think Dogsinstyle of this board has a litter of Browns that have full tails.


+1 on that bitch that kim is showing. i have to agree that the tail set, andthe tail itself would have to be almost perfect. it can be a personal thing, as i know one breeder who does not dock but it's not for me.


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## Dogsinstyle

I did dock 2 males per request, but the rest of the litter is undocked. I won't have another litter for a while- My plan is to breed Runway to a Russian dog in the future. This is his ped (full brother)-
PHR Pedigree Database
Carole


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## McSandd

When I picture my poodle I see a full natural tail like Arreau's Quincy or a long dock like Fluffyspoo's Vegas. 

I think I would prefer a "gay" or "squirrel" tail over a very very short dock. I am not 100% sure about it but I would like to talk to breeders who can provide me with more information.

Thanks again for all your suggestions!


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## McSandd

Dogsinstyle said:


> I did dock 2 males per request, but the rest of the litter is undocked. I won't have another litter for a while- My plan is to breed Runway to a Russian dog in the future. This is his ped (full brother)-
> PHR Pedigree Database
> Carole



What is your long term plan for your breedings? How far in advance are you planing? (We are not planning on adding to our family for about 2 years (give or take)).


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## jak

pudel luv said:


> We have two undocked standards. Both breeders were willing to work with us in our desire for undocked tails; however, it wasn't easy. Because we had to pick our dog out at day three, due to docking, we ended up having pick-of-the-litter. Depending on the breeder, you will pay extra due to the "pick" status. The choices of breeders in the US leaving tails undocked is very limited from my research. If you want a specific color, it limits the choices even further. Feel free to PM me if you want further details. Perhaps as the undocked tails become more accepted in the US, more breeders will go this route and open up the "undocked" door a bit .
> 
> In response to the curvature of the undocked tail: I have noticed that the tail often straightens significantly dependent on the dogs level of interest and excitement. In a relaxed state, the curvature can be more pronounced. When standing alert, it lifts up and out creating a straighter appearance. Just my observation from watching undocked tails for the past five years.


I would think that finding a good breeder who regularly docks, and asking them to not dock, would be nigh on impossible!
As picking puppies at 3 days old is not regularly done by good breeders, as choosing the ideal puppy to carry on with in your breeding program cannot be done then, as you will have no idea at how the puppy will turn out at 3 days old... when the choice to dock or not is done.


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## Winnow

Why not then buy a pup from Europe ?
There you are not allowed to dock and there are now a few generations of undocked dogs so you can see if the parents have bad tails or not.


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## jak

Winnow said:


> Why not then buy a pup from Europe ?
> There you are not allowed to dock and there are now a few generations of undocked dogs so you can see if the parents have bad tails or not.


Yes, that is also another option!!
It seems that that will be the way I will go...
quarantine is just too long for me to get one from America!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

What Jak said is absoultely correct. If a breeder docks, it is a pretty scary thing to try and choose a pup for someone by three days old so they can leave the tail natural. When you get right down to it, you cannot even be sure a three day old puppy has eyes yet, because their eyes are closed tight until about twelve days old. I have a breeder in Sweden very keen on getting a breeding/show puppy from me, but so far, we cannot figure out what to do, because I will not try to pick a show/breeding pup at three days to leave its tail undocked because it is next to impossible to choose just the right puppy for anyone at three days old. So if you cannot find someone amongst the breeders that have been recommended to you in North America, then Europe might be the way to go.


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## McSandd

Thanks, I didn't think that I would be able to find someone who docks that would not dock for me. 

I have an idea.... Arreau you could have a litter in about 2 years and leave all of the puppies undocked and send some to Europe and then one to me  lol

But on to reality, how long/how much does it cost to import from Europe compared to the States? Are there countries that are easier/harder? 

If I went on a vacation and brought back a puppy would it be easier?


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## Winnow

McSandd said:


> Thanks, I didn't think that I would be able to find someone who docks that would not dock for me.
> 
> I have an idea.... Arreau you could have a litter in about 2 years and leave all of the puppies undocked and send some to Europe and then one to me  lol
> 
> But on to reality, how long/how much does it cost to import from Europe compared to the States? Are there countries that are easier/harder?
> 
> If I went on a vacation and brought back a puppy would it be easier?


You can send a pup with Cargo or take him with you as luggage. 
If you send through Cargo it would cost more then just taking him with you.
But if you have no business in Europe and just flying back and forth then Cargo is less expensive.

The extra cost with Quincy was about 750 USD but she also had to pay some toll and handling fee at the airport. 
the 750 was for the cage, cargo flight, Vet check and export pedigree, I think thats all. 

I have imported two dogs and I have always gone out to pick them up. 
and we have paid 150 USD for the dog coming from Germany and 350 USD for the bitch from Sweden.

I think most pups are around 1400-2000 USD Then I am talking about pups from good breeders, with shown and health checked parents.

For Canada they don't have to have there rabies shot before they leave from Iceland, but I am not sure for the USA.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

McSandd said:


> Thanks, I didn't think that I would be able to find someone who docks that would not dock for me.
> 
> I have an idea.... Arreau you could have a litter in about 2 years and leave all of the puppies undocked and send some to Europe and then one to me  lol
> 
> But on to reality, how long/how much does it cost to import from Europe compared to the States? Are there countries that are easier/harder?
> 
> If I went on a vacation and brought back a puppy would it be easier?


In two years I may NOT be docking at all. I have considered this in the past, but coming from a show home it is taking me a bit to get my mind around it. But there has been a lot of interest from Europeans, because they do not seem to have the quality of colour we have here, and the fact that I do dock and do not feel comfortable picking a puppy at three days old is causing a considerable road block. So, the answer may be to not dock and only do it IF someone requests it. We'll see....


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## Cdnjennga

You might want to ask around about smaller breeders who might keep tails undocked. My breeder is originally from Europe and only has about 1 litter every 4 years or so, and it just worked out that she was having one just as I was looking for a pup. She keeps the dogs natural because that's what she's used to.

Cbrand did make a good point earlier. You have to accept that the tail may go all sorts of ways if it's undocked! Darcy's curls quite a lot, which some people wouldn't like. It doesn't bother me at all, in fact I like it, but an undocked tail can be a crapshoot.


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## McSandd

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> In two years I may NOT be docking at all. I have considered this in the past, but coming from a show home it is taking me a bit to get my mind around it. But there has been a lot of interest from Europeans, because they do not seem to have the quality of colour we have here, and the fact that I do dock and do not feel comfortable picking a puppy at three days old is causing a considerable road block. So, the answer may be to not dock and only do it IF someone requests it. We'll see....


That was a long shot (I was joking) but if you are serious I would want to be on your list!

Cdnjennga, this was my hope that someone would know someone that did not dock. I really do not want to have someone pick a puppy at 3 days old and have it be the "wrong" dog for us. It would be better if they didn't dock at all. I agree Cbrand did make a great point but I don't think it would matter if my dog had a curly or "gay" tail. Do you have pictures of your Darcy's tail? (The picture I see of Darcy with the pine cone has a very cute tail with a curl or curve I would love)


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## Searcher

We got our puppy from Silken. We had to go to Canada to find a breeder as most in the US seem to dock & it was important to us to have an undocked tail. Her temperament is fantastic, she is calm yet curious & so far has been really healthy. We would recommend Lori. She did a great job of keeping us informed, answering our zillions of questions & sending video links at least every week after the pups were born.


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## cbrand

McSandd said:


> I agree Cbrand did make a great point but I don't think it would matter if my dog had a curly or "gay" tail.


I asked about the tail because my Izze had a lying-on-the-back gay tail and I HATED HATED HATED it. Every day I'd look at it and it would bug the heck out of me. Had that tail been undocked, I think it would have hit her in the back of the neck!

Funny thing about Izze's tail.... at her 7 week inspection, she had a perfectly straight tail that was carried at 12 o'clock. It was one of the things noted by the other breeders doing the evaluations and one of the reasons I kept her. At some point, it seemed as though the tendon in her tail gave way and could not support the tail bone. Ultimately, her tail went up straight at 12 o'clock and then about 1/4 of the way up, it made an abrupt 90 degree turn straight towards her head. Ugh!!!!


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## Cdnjennga

Here's a few to show his tail, it seems to be curling more the older he gets! We'll see where it ends up. Bear in mind he's a mini pup.

9 weeks









10 weeks









11 weeks









13 weeks









I like that his tail is centred though. His mom's goes a little to the side and is more curled than his. I prefer how his looks.


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## McSandd

I really like Darcy's tail  and would love to have a dog with a tail like his. Is this a tail that would not be acceptable to others?


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## Cdnjennga

Searcher said:


> We got our puppy from Silken. We had to go to Canada to find a breeder as most in the US seem to dock & it was important to us to have an undocked tail. Her temperament is fantastic, she is calm yet curious & so far has been really healthy. We would recommend Lori. She did a great job of keeping us informed, answering our zillions of questions & sending video links at least every week after the pups were born.


Searcher I'd love to see photos of your pup!

Heather on this forum has Rogan from Silken. I think his tail is just beautiful. Here's a link where you can see it (second set of photos further down the post).
http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/6255-rogans-first-major-haircut.html


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## McSandd

cbrand said:


> I asked about the tail because my Izze had a lying-on-the-back gay tail and I HATED HATED HATED it. Every day I'd look at it and it would bug the heck out of me. Had that tail been undocked, I think it would have hit her in the back of the neck!
> 
> Funny thing about Izze's tail.... at her 7 week inspection, she had a perfectly straight tail that was carried at 12 o'clock. It was one of the things noted by the other breeders doing the evaluations and one of the reasons I kept her. At some point, it seemed as though the tendon in her tail gave way and could not support the tail bone. Ultimately, her tail went up straight at 12 o'clock and then about 1/4 of the way up, it made an abrupt 90 degree turn straight towards her head. Ugh!!!!


Do you have a picture of her tail? (I am a very visual person and find it hard to imagine things from description)


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## McSandd

Cdnjennga said:


> Searcher I'd love to see photos of your pup!
> 
> Heather on this forum has Rogan from Silken. I think his tail is just beautiful. Here's a link where you can see it (second set of photos further down the post).
> http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/6255-rogans-first-major-haircut.html




I agree on both accounts!!!


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## Cdnjennga

I think the thing with tails is it becomes a case of love your dog, love the tail. Our first Portuguese Water Dog was born with a perfectly straight tail. Then the summer he was a puppy my mom and I went to England for a couple of weeks, came home and his tail at the end had curled like a pig's tail! My mom was freaking out and accusing my dad of slamming it in a door or something (he swears he didn't). Anyway, we came to love his distinct tail because it was part of him, who we all adored. I now can't imagine him with any tail other than the one he had.

Here he is with my mom during water training. Hehe, his tail really was quite awful!


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## neVar

my new pup is coming from silken as well. So a natural tail (she's got 3 pups still available last i talked to her) 

I don't mind the natural tail on the poodles.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Searcher said:


> We got our puppy from Silken. We had to go to Canada to find a breeder as most in the US seem to dock & it was important to us to have an undocked tail. Her temperament is fantastic, she is calm yet curious & so far has been really healthy. We would recommend Lori. She did a great job of keeping us informed, answering our zillions of questions & sending video links at least every week after the pups were born.


Almost everyone here does too. Very rare to find a breeder who does not. Lori is a friend of mine and I would recommend her as well. 

It is hard enough to find a reputable breeder, who tests and does things right without adding docked or undocked tails to the equation. For heaven's sake, whoever you go with, check things out. Don't make the tail your biggest priority. You want to find someone who tests, is trustworthy, who breeds good quality dogs, who will have a relationship with you who just happens to dock or not dock.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Here are some photos of Flynn's undocked tail and Thinker's docked incredibly swirled tail. If given the choice on these two tails, I would take Flynn's over Thinker's anyday!!


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## McSandd

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> It is hard enough to find a reputable breeeder, who tests and does things right without adding docked or undocked tails to the equation. For heaven's sake, whoever you go with, check things out. Don't make the tail your biggest priority. You want to find someone who tests, is trustworthy, who breeds good quality dogs, who will have a relationship with you who just happens to dock or not dock.


I agree! Having 2 years before I get my dog I thought I would shoot for everything I want and if I find someone who has everything then great. If I do not find the right breeder with everything I will cross a couple expectations off my list.

So far my list is::smow:

Black 
Male
18-24inches
undocked tail
excellent temperament
wonderful with children
all health testing done
well socialized as a puppy

I am sure I have more on my list but cannot think of it right now. This list is also not in order of most important. In fact, the first thing I am flexible on is color. 

Feel free to make suggestions on my list


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## Olie

Suri's curls right close to her back. Grant it love her dearly - but I would like to experiment with some trims and with her tail curling over - not sure how it would look. Flynns tail is nice.


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## fjm

I love my toy poodle Poppy's full tail - she uses it to express how she is feeling, to balance when she is teetering on stones in the river, and to wrap over her nose when she is sleepy. It falls in a natural curve - I suspect she carries it a little low for show conformation, but perhaps it is the high set tails that are more prone to curl?


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## McSandd

On a side note, Silken has a very cute puppy available. Both my mom and I would have bought him if we were allowed. He has a very cute moustache. I thought I would name him Reynolds 

Too bad I cannot buy him


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## cbrand

McSandd said:


> Do you have a picture of her tail? (I am a very visual person and find it hard to imagine things from description)


I tended to not keep pictures that showed her tail, but look at this one. It may be hard to see because it is at a distance. I did my best to scissor it into a ball shape to minimize the look of the tail.


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## cbrand

Oops.... did not include picture. She is the white one.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Looks like Thinker's tail!!! Sure does get the creative juices going trying to doctor it and make it look decent! My Mom always felt bad because his tail is a tad long and a shorter dock would have helped, but one snip is definately enough.


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## McSandd

cbrand said:


> Oops.... did not include picture. She is the white one.


From what I can tell this tail does not look objectionable to me. I think maybe it is one of the "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" things


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## Taxi

McSandd said:


> I agree! Having 2 years before I get my dog I thought I would shoot for everything I want and if I find someone who has everything then great. If I do not find the right breeder with everything I will cross a couple expectations off my list.
> 
> So far my list is::smow:
> 
> Black
> Male
> 18-24inches
> undocked tail
> excellent temperament
> wonderful with children
> all health testing done
> well socialized as a puppy
> 
> I am sure I have more on my list but cannot think of it right now. This list is also not in order of most important. In fact, the first thing I am flexible on is color.
> 
> Feel free to make suggestions on my list


Since you have the time to look, I would go for want you want. I've had two dobermans with long tails & now two spoos with long tails. With the time you have you will be able to learn about the breeder & get to know the dogs. Trust your own instincts & talk to the breeder when picking your pup. We have had great success with our dogs. Once we felt comfortable with a good breeder and the way the dogs are raised i.e. in the home, all test etc. Our priority was temperament, color, size, undocked tail & how the pups were sensitized/handled before we picked them up. Wishing you the best...


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## McSandd

Thanks Taxi... I think I will aim for everything and only give in where I have too.

Arreau, I like both Flynn's and Thinker's tails. I would be happy with both (sorry it took so long to reply to that posting I missed it :doh


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