# What Is Wrong With People !!!



## SECRETO

So the other day I came across an add for Standard Poodle puppies and inquired about them. The lady sent me a email this evening of her stud, the bitch and her two pups. I was absolutely appolled (sp) by what I seen. 

Not to mention in the brief conversation we had she said her pups are sold on limited registration. That meaning you have no breeding rights and your dog is limited to what events they can be entered in through AKC. Unless you want to pay more... $600.00 limited and $1,000 with out limited status. 

Anyway, here are the pics I see when I open this email.....OMG!!!! Why in the h*** do people breed dogs like that. What is she thinking???? This lady is a regular breeder and has two litter's on the ground right now. Im still just beside myself that people do this. :banghead:


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## Purple Poodle

They do it because people will pay out the ass for "purebred" puppies. Slap a "registered" on it and you will reel them in! :shot:

Poor dogs :shocked:


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## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> They do it because people will pay out the ass for "purebred" puppies. Slap a "registered" on it and you will reel them in! :shot:
> 
> Poor dogs :shocked:



Oh I know but don't people have common sense anymore?! Don't get a dog because its a good deal if it doesn't look bred well. Those people are feeding the backyard breeder industry and keeping it going. I just get sick of seeing dogs like that being bred. I replied back asking her why does she think those dogs are worthy of being bred. There just isn't a nicer way to put that. I also sent her the link to the AKC breed standard page and a few pics of what dogs being bred should resemble. 

It doesn't take a genius to realize that dogs in general are being over bred and unless you have a REAL GOOD reason to breed you shouldn't. Evidently her mother breed's miniature Poodles as well. Im sure they are PETS as well and should be SPAYED. 

Oh and yes POOR DOGS!


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## Pamela

The poor mother looks so thin!


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## Purple Poodle

Common sense seams to be the ting of the past. You get dumb ass people who see a puppy go all soft and any rational though they had flys out the window!

I see so many poorly bred so called "purebred" dogs is not even funny! When people call for a grooming I ask what kind of dog they have and most have a "purebred" well when these dogs come in its scary to even call them a breed because they don't even resemble it!

Like this dog, the lady said he was a "Standard" Yorkie, well he weighed in at about 25 pounds! Tis the reason I won't do price quotes over the phone 

Even with rescues, one time I fostered two Westies and their picture ran in the paper, we got over 200 calls on these two dogs. It was insane and you ask the people why they want the dog and most common reason was "They look so cute!" yeah good reason to get a dog!

The stupidity of humans amazes me on a daily bases. :doh:


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## mercymoon

The bitch looks the worse, poor dogs. 

Yep, this woman definately sounds like a backyard breeder to 
me also.

Did you ever get a response from the woman selling the puppies 
when you asked her what made them breeding quality? LOL, I 
wonder what her response was, let us know.


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## Pamela

the yellow pup is cute - for a pet - but doesn't look like a poodle to me.


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## SECRETO

mercymoon said:


> The bitch looks the worse, poor dogs.
> 
> Yep, this woman definately sounds like a backyard breeder to
> me also.
> 
> Did you ever get a response from the woman selling the puppies
> when you asked her what made them breeding quality? LOL, I
> wonder what her response was, let us know.


Nope, she hasn't responded back. lol If she does respond Im sure it wont be nice but I will definatly tell ya what she says. 

The father looks aweful too. I can't quite figure out what is up with his feet. I know its not just a bad grooming....he is way back on his pasturns (sp) and his head muzzle look bad as well. They all look like poor breeding quality to me.


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## Pamela

westies are cute though -although they are not my type. I have a friend who breeds them. I can't think of any other description for them but cute. oh well!

Where are the little characters you all use in the posts. they used to show on the side but now I can't find them. Maybe you can't use on quick reply, which this is. lol


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## SECRETO

Pamela said:


> westies are cute though -although they are not my type. I have a friend who breeds them. I can't think of any other description for them but cute. oh well!
> 
> Where are the little characters you all use in the posts. they used to show on the side but now I can't find them. Maybe you can't use on quick reply, which this is. lol




Ya, I think thats why you don't see the funny faces. 

My girl friend is looking for a Westie. On the Westie the head is something to really look for. Westies are supposed to have a nice blocky head. They are a very sturdy, very balanced looking dog, I just love the expressions they give. They look like they are always ready for what ever..... a true Terrier.


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## CurlyDog

Oh, we had Westies growing up. They were so smart! One of them knew it was ok to be on the couch with us, but as soon as he heard my mother's car he was off! He also knew who drove what car. We loved him but he sure became a crabby old thing in his older years.


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## Jako

That bitch looks awful.


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## WonderPup

Wow where did her tail go? Poor girl she looks terriable. I just dont even breed poodles but I've seen enough nice ones to know better than to be excited about a puppy from those two. Poor dogs. In a perfect world people would be well informed before they add a dog to their home and they would not purchase from people like this. I would be extremely interested to know what, if any, reply you get from your e-mail. I would love to know whats going through her head. 

-Leia


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## SECRETO

This is what the lady had to say about her breeding practice;


Hi Jennifer, that is neat that you are such a poodle expert, but you are putting way too much stock in a picture taken of a dog a week or two after she gave birth to 7 puppies. I apologize the pictures are not great. But, the mother and the fathers both come from EXCELLENT stock, from nationally respected breeders. The dogs have PERFECT health records going back numerous generations for hips, eyes, etc. And they are WONDERFUL pets with very gentle dispositions. The vets I use are very impressed with them as are other local breeders I have worked with. So, in fact they are great candidates for breeding in my opinion. Every person who has come to look at a puppy has purchased one except for one lady, one person even purchased two, and I always get word of mouth referrals. Almost every person who has purchased from this litter were either former standard owners, or had done alot of research on standards and they loved them when they say them in person. If you are serious about buying a dog I would recommend not putting too much stock in a hair cut. Thanks for looking.


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## SECRETO

I couldn't help but respond back and this is what I said;


Are you kidding me? Your female was extremely under weight and even after giving birth they should never look like that. She has NO bone substance and an aweful head. The father is way back on his pasturns and looks like his feet have growths...not to mention he has a bad head too. Then you can't even provide decent grooming for your dogs. Why in the world are you breeding? You shouldn't !!!!!!!

Oh and what Nationally respected breeder's would allow you to breed dogs in that condition. I know who reputable Poodle breeders are in the US and they DO NOT PRODUCE DOGS LIKE THAT! You couldn't even tell me what the pedigree was behind them so give me a break. Your nothing but a discusting backyard breeder that is just interested in money for your dogs! Im ashamed that people like you exsist and thanks again for your contribution to ruining the breed. 

P.S. If theres nothing wrong with your "breeding practice" then why don't you say who produced those dogs? What's the pedigree behind them?


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## Jako

I agree with you in principle, but that tone is likely to make her ignore everything you say and not take you seriously. It does not make you sound knowledgeable, just angry.

I know that you ARE knowledgeable, and concerned for the good of the breed. So if your purpose in sending that email was to make her rethink her breeding practices, wouldn't it be better to use a calmer, mature tone that she might actually listen to?


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## SECRETO

Jako said:


> I agree with you in principle, but that tone is likely to make her ignore everything you say and not take you seriously. It does not make you sound knowledgeable, just angry.
> 
> I know that you ARE knowledgeable, and concerned for the good of the breed. So if your purpose in sending that email was to make her rethink her breeding practices, wouldn't it be better to use a calmer, mature tone that she might actually listen to?



Oh yes I realize I could of used a better tone but personally didn't want to. Im to the point now that Im down right sick of stupid people. I know that sounds harsh but its the truth. Im very straight forward and certainly come off hard but life isn't a little walk in the park either. 

The lady is obviously a idiot when it comes to dogs. Im also pretty sure Im one of the few if not only person that has said anything to her. Anyway...I think she got the point either way.


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## Gigit

The first three dogs don't drike me as full poodle bloodlines first of all, and they don't look healthy what-so-ever. the last one looks OK to me, but hard to see. None of those dogs seem "happy" and the first picture terrifies me. It has puppy mill written all over it.

The one that is a "Yorkie" cracks me up... Yorkie my rosy behind :arrogant (2): I love all dogs, including mixed breed dogs, but I wish the government would do something about puppy mills and backyard breeders. It's so wrong on so many levels.

Check this out - my local Kijiji Classifieds, all nearly mix breeds puppymill or backyard bred for profit, with this new "designer" crossbreed stuff that really drives me nuts. Basically, people have a pet and decide to cash in and breed their "pets" with other dogs, lord KNOWS what the backgrounds are:

http://hamilton.kijiji.ca/f-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-W0QQCatIdZ126

I do think some poodle crosses and beagle crosses are fantastic little pets, such as a cockapoo pr a puggle both fantastic dogs, when done by a reputable breeder with dogs with papers and in great health with good temperaments. The problem is that good breeders for theses types of dogs is few and far between.


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## Purple Poodle

The Puggle is one of the worst mixes I have seen that's become popular. People do not realize that Beagles are ACTIVE dogs and Pugs are as about as stubborn as they come. They get these cute little things and then once they grow up it given away or sold because it gets to much for them to handle. 

I just don't understand Poodle mixes, why mix them? Cockers are cute, Poodles are cute, Cockapoos are ugly as all get out! Why breed them? 

Click
Click


I don't see the attraction with Labradoodles, or Goldendoodles.

Click
Click

I just don't get.


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## Gigit

I know a couple that has a Puggle, he's an awesome dog, all be it, his personality is very "Beagle" and I wouldn't own a Beagle. I know another couple that has a purebred Pug, even more awesome, in fact he is very well behaved with one of the best personalities I've ever seen in a dog. The Pug's only flaw is he farts a LOT. 

I think all above mentioned breeds are simply adorable. 

Here is another shot of a Goldendoodle









Cockapoo









Puggle









I think they are all totally CUTE!


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## Pamela

I love the Goldendoodle. I think it depends on the breeder. some are ugly. some are cute. These 3 dogs are cute but are they stil puppys?


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## Gigit

Pamela said:


> I love the Goldendoodle. I think it depends on the breeder. some are ugly. some are cute. These 3 dogs are cute but are they stil puppys?



The Puggle is full grown, here is a puppy Puggle 









The Goldendoodle I think is a young dog right out of puppy hood, here is a Goldendoodle puppy









And here is a Cockapoo puppy (I am not sure of the age of that one, looks younger but don't think it's a puppy)


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## SECRETO

The groomer I use, well used to use, has a regular daycare Goldendoodle and he's a doll. Mr sister dropped her dogs off one day and called me saying how adorable that doodle was. He looks like a big brown teddy bear. 

Im not big on mixing breeds but there are times you just have to admit they are cute. However, I haven't seen a labradoodle that is THAT attractive.


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## Purple Poodle

Its very hard to find adult pictures of "Doodles" because they grow up to be quite ugly.

Also those pictures you posted Gigit are the "good" Doodles and those seam to be the ones people buy because like the dogs I posted they can be quite ugly and you do get both in litters.

Some more adult Doodles

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images16/LABRADOODLEAyersAdultPic.JPG
http://breederinfocenter.com/images2/20070208140757_164932_3.gif
http://searchwarp.com/UserImages/1366/doodle_harleysaltzman1small.jpg
http://www.breedersonline.co.uk/Dogs/Photos/Australian-Labradoodle.jpg

Not all of them look like the cute little dogs you posted Gigit

http://goldenpoo.homestead.com/files/zen.jpg
http://www.valleyviewdogs.com/images/roodles/roodle-adult-03.jpg
http://www.breedersonline.co.uk/Dogs/Photos/labradoodles.jpg
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images14/LabradoodleOlive5halfMonths1.jpg

You want a wavy haired non sheading dog get a Portie or a Am. Water Spaniel, you want one of the "hair coat" get a German Wirehaired Pointer or a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. Don't buy a mix because its all hype 

Hell just get a Golden or a Poodle or what have you I see no reason what so ever to mix them when there are existing breeds that fit the bill.

Not all Puggles look like the ones you posted you also have dogs like these,

http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a54/kit-kat2u/100_4617.jpg
http://www.puggles.me.uk/blog.html (great site)
http://www.puggles.me.uk/gallery.html
http://a0.vox.com/6a00b8ea0716b01bc000f48cf1a6700002-500pi
http://bengoshisan.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/puggle-002.jpg
http://www.backyardleaguebaseball.com/DSC00034.jpg
http://www.wizardnews.com/blog/images/puggle.jpg
http://pugglepro.com/assets/images/Puggle2.jpg

You want a cute little snub noses dog get a Tibbie.


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## CurlyDog

My sister has a labradoodle. He's really sweet but for the 1st 3 years he was a pain in the @ss. He's a 70 pound lap dog!


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## Gigit

I'm sorry, I think adult Golden Doodles are totally adorable with great personalities. They aren't all prim and proper, they remind me of huge teddy bear hippie dogs.

http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=golden+doodle Flickr album with LOADS of totally precious golden Doodles


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## Pamela

I think they are cute - sorry - especially when they let the hair grow long. they don't get as matted as other long haired dogs do.


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## gwtwmum2

I think Golden doodle's are cute too but can't they shed? I wonder when (at what age) you would know if they are going to shed or not.


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## Jehn

I love the look of the labradoodles and goldendoodles as well, but when we were looking into breeds I just couldn't justify spending $2500 on a dog that isn't even purebred. My standard cost $1200... Why would you pay twice as much for a mixed-breed dog just 'cause it's cute? The goldendoodles and labradoodles I like look like long haired poodles so why not just keep Bauer's hair a little longer and keep a teddy bear cut? That's what we do, and it makes so much more sense to me.

One of my favorite features of my poodle is his hair - I can make him look however I want him to, he has had so many different cuts (some really bad, mind you!) but it's fin to experiment. And I LOVE seeing pictures like the ponydoodle and the lion cut, they crack me up and just prove how versatile the poodle coat really is.


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## Pamela

I may be wrong but I think the goldendoodle and labradoodle are AKC now - a recongnized breed. As far as shedding goes - you have to take a chance I guess - but people I met at Petsmart had one that was almost a year and he didn't shed, his coat was beautiful and they didn't have to brush him every day.


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## mercymoon

I think the puggle is pretty darn cute actually, lol! 

...and Jenn, that lady don't know what the heck she is 
talking about,I know our miniature bitch after having puppies 
never looked that underweight...any of our dogs for that matter.
A disqusting back yard breeder more than likely.


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## Jako

Pamela said:


> I may be wrong but I think the goldendoodle and labradoodle are AKC now - a recongnized breed.


People are trying to get the Australian Labradoodle recognized, because it is actually being developed into a breed.

A Golden/Poodle mix or Labrador/Poodle mix cannot be recognized because it is not a breed. You can't predict accurately what the offspring will look like. To be a breed, the dogs need to look consistently the same for many generations.


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## WonderPup

I think it will be a long time before AKC recognizes doodles of any kind. The Continental Kennel Club on the other hand I believe does register them as well as other 'designer' breed. They have a spot on their site specificly for these breeds and upon looking at the breeder's websites it says that the puppies are CKC registered.


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## Blue Fox

I have to join Secreto on this one. WHY, WHY, WHY!? If you want a Lab buy one, of you want a Poodle buy one. You will never know what your pup is going to grow into both in looks and temperament, it is unlikely that the relevant health test will have been done, and as said previously you will not know if the dog will shed or not until sometime later in it's life.

In Australia there are something like 180 or more registered breeds if you can't find something amongst existing breeds that suits you down to a tee then you shouldn't own a dog!

So called 'designer dogs" are a money making gimmick and for my two cents worth that is not what breeding or owning dogs is about. I have nothing against mutts, have always owned them until a few years ago when we got our first purebred shepherd, but call them by their true names they are not Goldendoodles they are Golden retriever X's. The names add insult to injury - who wants to buy a Golden X (no-one) but give it a so called name and everyone wants to have the new highfalutin' breed!

RIDICULOUS!


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## Gigit

Hmmm, just because it's not "purebred" with registration papers doesn't mean it's not a good dog. This viewpoint greatly disturbs me.


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## WonderPup

Gigit said:


> Hmmm, just because it's not "purebred" with registration papers doesn't mean it's not a good dog. This viewpoint greatly disturbs me.


I would agree with you there. However, I do not agree that it is a good idea to try and create "designer dogs" for profit. If pedigrees and registration papers aren't important to you there are hundreds of fantastic dogs, some of them purbreds, at shelters and rescue groups. If you just have to have a doodle or a puggle or one of the other "breeds" that they've come up with in reccent years I can garentee you can find those at shelters too. Lab/Golden-doodles especially I presume. I've actually never seen one over the age of 2 or 3.... Although we see puppies in for grooming and taking our training classes all the time.


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## Purple Poodle

Gigit said:


> Hmmm, just because it's not "purebred" with registration papers doesn't mean it's not a good dog. This viewpoint greatly disturbs me.


Blue Fox said and I quote "I have nothing against mutts, have always owned them" so she never said its not a good dog. But it p i s s es me off when people think its okay to breed MUTTS! I mean come on, if you want a cute companion dog go to a shelter or if your set on a purebred go to a breed specific rescue don't spend thousands of dollars on a mixed breed just because its the new thing to do. Its absurd the amount of money these people want and get for mutts. :banghead:

I have rescued a "Cockapoo" from my local pound and he was a very sweet dog but was severely neglected at a little over a year old. He was matted and malnourished. But he found a great home with a wonderful older woman. This is Parker the Cocker/Poodle mix. I can't even tell you how many purebred I have rescued and re-homed. Now having to deal with purposefully bred mixed breeds just makes me mad.


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## Blue Fox

Gigit said:


> Hmmm, just because it's not "purebred" with registration papers doesn't mean it's not a good dog. This viewpoint greatly disturbs me.


I agree - as I said I have owned mutts for years and they were excellent dogs. What they weren't were $2000 xbreds by backyard breeders intent on scamming the public and making money off breeding with no consideration for the betterment of the breed.

A good dog is one that fits your lifestyle and ends up being a valued member of your family. You are more likely to get that if you choose a purebred from a registered breeder. You will have a fairly good indication of what your going to end up with in temperament, looks, size, grooming requirements etc... These things, while not guaranteed, are far more certain in a purebred from good stock. You wanted a medium size, no shedding, no grooming placcid dog for the kids but you end up with a monsterous long haired shedding dog that requires excessive amounts of exercise to keep under control - and suddenly it isn't a "good dog". 

Personally I wouldn't buy off anyone but a reputable, registered breeder. I know there are some registered breeders who are still doing the wrong thing too, but if you do your homework before purchasing a puppy and get to know your breeder you will end up with a "good dog". 

Your breeder will get to know you, your needs for the dog, your domestic situation, they will help with the hundred and one questions you will have (especially with something like a poodle with the grooming requirements). Your dogs parents will have been health tested and cleared for known problems within the breed. And if worse comes to worse and you need to rehome the dog the breeder will often help with that too, in my case she will actually take the dog back. Your dog will be microchipped, will come with information on how to feed and what to expect with teething, growing pains, training.

You will not get this from your "designer dog" breeder. They are predominantly in it for the money, they perpetuate the puppy mill cycle, they funnel their unwanted into pet shops for unwary purchasers to be told a pack of lies in order to move the merchandise. They do not reproduce for the betterment of the breed, because there is no breed! I understand the Australian Guide Dogs gave up on trying to breed labradoodles when they realised that the cross could not be mimicked everytime - you just didn't know what you will get in each litter.

As Wonderpup said if people are intent on getting this type of dog go to a pound, rescue shelter, what ever. Give a good home to a good dog who through no fault of its own has ended up in a bad situation. Most of these dogs you will find are purchased on a whim with no understanding of the type of dog it will grow into and the problems associated with these so called designer dogs, beacuse the breeders don't tell them the truth and in most cases go on parroting what they think people want to hear eg. hybrid vigour, won't shed, great with kids etc...

Everytime someone hands over the money for these dogs they perpetuate the cycle - don't buy them and they will eventually stop breeding them!

OK off my highhorse now. I have no wish to offend people or get anyone off side but I find the idea of these xbreds, their origins and their future to be disturbing!


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## Gigit

WonderPup said:


> I would agree with you there. However, I do not agree that it is a good idea to try and create "designer dogs" for profit. If pedigrees and registration papers aren't important to you there are hundreds of fantastic dogs, some of them purbreds, at shelters and rescue groups. If you just have to have a doodle or a puggle or one of the other "breeds" that they've come up with in reccent years I can garentee you can find those at shelters too. Lab/Golden-doodles especially I presume. I've actually never seen one over the age of 2 or 3.... Although we see puppies in for grooming and taking our training classes all the time.


Yup, breeding for profit, and most of these people, oh man not only do they have no business breeding, they don't follow standard breeding procedures and often lie about what they are crossing their girls with. I am also alarmed at this new "Designer dog fad," but it can be done right as well.

I haven't seen any Poodle or Golden mixes at any shelter within my city or even cities 100 km away (we check weekly - maybe they go very fast?) but I do see lots of other mixes, especially Beagle, Terrier and Lab mixes. Beagles are a tough dogs, very difficult to handle at times, and most people have no clue what they are getting into or how to handle a dog like a Beagle.


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## WonderPup

Blue Fox said:


> I agree - as I said I have owned mutts for years and they were excellent dogs. What they weren't were $2000 xbreds


$2,000 :shock: :jaw:

Random thought here-

I bred and show Tibetan Spaniels. We have a litter on the ground now, just one puppy. Daddy dog - Howie - is a multiple group placing champion, he's gotten his CGC. certification, is a TDI certified therapy dog, he's competing in Obedience and reccently recieved his Rally Novice title. He has yet to sire a show prospect that has achieved less than two group placements, and most of his pups that havent been shown have obedience or agility titles - his first son won Best Puppy at the national specialty. The puppy's mother - Wonder - is also a champion, she is testing tomarrow night for her CGC and before she was bred she had started competing in Rally. Both parents have passed the appropriate health certifications. We had issues whelping the litter, the first of the two puppies got twisted and stuck - Emergancy after hours c-section to the tune of 1,000dollars, and we lost the first puppy in spite of everything we could do. That being said, with all the work, and all the money spent, and the fantastic parents,( no I'm not biased or anything), I could NEVER EVER sell this puppy and get $2,000. :shock: I have a litter every two - two 1/2 years or so and apparently I have a few things I need to learn about marketing.... :vampire:

Holy cow, and my mother thinks I'm asking to much for Mr. Wonderful. Mind you I'm not giving him away cheap or anything, but wow 2Grand??


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## Blue Fox

Yep over here you can expect to pay anything from about $500 up to I have heard $2,500 for these creations! Now these aren't your common garden variety poodle x's they are the very rare :rofl: Puggle (Pug and Beagle cross) or even worse the Schnorkie (Miniature Schnauzer and Yorkshire Terrier). 

I will add that that is sarcasm :banghead: as I don't want anyone reading my post and thinking these dogs are actually rare or expensive!


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## Blue Fox

So all this got me started looking on the internet and I came across some of these and just had to share :rofl:

Pointer + Setter =
Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet

Kerry Blue Terrier + Skye Terrier =
Blue Skye, a dog for visionaries

Pekingnese + Lhasa Apso =
Peekasso, an abstract dog

Irish Water Spaniel + English Springer Spaniel =
Irish Springer, a dog fresh and clean as a whistle

Labrador Retriever + Curly Coated Retriever =
Lab Coat Retriever, the choice of research scientists

Newfoundland + Basset Hound =
Newfound Asset Hound, a dog for financial advisors

Terrier + Bulldog =
Terribull, a dog prone to awful mistakes

Malamute + Pointer =
Moot Point, owned by....oh, well, it doesn't matter anyway

Collie + Malamute =
Commute, a dog that travels to work

Deerhound + Terrier =
Derriere, a dog that's true to the end

Cocker Spaniel + Rottweiller =
Cockrot, the perfect puppy for that philandering ex-husband

Bull Terrier + Shitzu =
Bullshitz, a gregarious but unreliable breed


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## SECRETO

WonderPup said:


> $2,000 :shock: :jaw:
> 
> Random thought here-
> 
> I bred and show Tibetan Spaniels. We have a litter on the ground now, just one puppy. Daddy dog - Howie - is a multiple group placing champion, he's gotten his CGC. certification, is a TDI certified therapy dog, he's competing in Obedience and reccently recieved his Rally Novice title. He has yet to sire a show prospect that has achieved less than two group placements, and most of his pups that havent been shown have obedience or agility titles - his first son won Best Puppy at the national specialty. The puppy's mother - Wonder - is also a champion, she is testing tomarrow night for her CGC and before she was bred she had started competing in Rally. Both parents have passed the appropriate health certifications. We had issues whelping the litter, the first of the two puppies got twisted and stuck - Emergancy after hours c-section to the tune of 1,000dollars, and we lost the first puppy in spite of everything we could do. That being said, with all the work, and all the money spent, and the fantastic parents,( no I'm not biased or anything), I could NEVER EVER sell this puppy and get $2,000. :shock: I have a litter every two - two 1/2 years or so and apparently I have a few things I need to learn about marketing.... :vampire:
> 
> Holy cow, and my mother thinks I'm asking to much for Mr. Wonderful. Mind you I'm not giving him away cheap or anything, but wow 2Grand??





I have experience showing AKC with Amstaffs and even a Amstaff will run you 1,000 to 2,000 (show potential). Ive considering a Amstaff bitch now that is 1500.00. For the pedigree and the quality of this bitch, its pretty good. Ecspecially since a Standard Poodle with a good pedigree from Ch lines will cost 2500.00 to 3000.00. 

Im sad to say that as much as I love Standard Poodles Ive decided to go back to my Amstaffs. Eli has a permantent home here and a permanent place in my heart. However showing a SP isn't going to work with my family obligations and life style. Sure, if they allowed pet clips in AKC I'd be all over it. Luckily I aslo love Amstaffs and they certainly need all the help they can get before the society destroys the breed. 

Anyhow....back to topic now that I rambled on and on....lol
Im not big on mixing breeds either. I think if this mixing breeds stuff continues and continues to grow it will evetualy ruin these breeds one way or another.


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## Gigit

Look at these "miniature poodles" on sale for a cheap $399.00

http://hamilton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-do...TE-MINIATURE-POODLE-PUPPIES-W0QQAdIdZ87942416









Now THAT sorta thing makes me annoyed, it's an outright lie.


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## WonderPup

I'm aware that a good dog to show can cost you, but even so 12-15 hundred is about my limit. Honestly I've beeb lucky and haven't had to actualy buy a dog since we bought our first tibbie. I was 14 years old when I saved up enough money for him and he cost400 dollars. He not only got his championship and was my first juniors dog but he also produced some amazing puppies, like Howie for instance  I wouldn't pay 2,000 dollars for a dog unless I had a really good reason and I can't think of a good enough reason to pay that for a puppy for show that there is always a chance might not turn out. But thats a show dog.... 2,000 dollars for a designer dog who may or may not be what I was expecting, I don't understand the draw to that. 

Are those really poodles up there? We had a dog in the shop last week who looked just like the darker of the two but he was Shih Tzu mix of some sort, or so they said. I guess the grooming makes all the difference, maybe it's the fuzzy face throwing me off.


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## Gigit

They are no pure-bred poodle, that's for sure - the colors are not right. First of all, color is all wrong, esp the second also struck me as a Shih Tzu mix, second hair texture seems not quite right, muzzle seems "thick" to me and the ears are too long -esp on the second one. I also think the paws seem a bit large yes? anyhow, the color is in no way shape or form a poodle color. Even the head shape seems off...


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## Purple Poodle

Gigit said:


> They are no pure-bred poodle, that's for sure - the colors are not right. First of all, color is all wrong, esp the second also struck me as a Shih Tzu mix, second hair texture seems not quite right, muzzle seems "thick" to me and the ears are too long -esp on the second one. I also think the paws seem a bit large yes? anyhow, the color is in no way shape or form a poodle color. Even the head shape seems off...


I thought they looked like Dachshund Poodle mixes. And Mercy, Poodles do come in those colors.  The one is whats called and Apricot Parti and the other is a Sable. But I do agree they do not look purebred or well bred.


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## Gigit

Never heard of sable before... and it's not a CKC or AKC color. The "sable" one has terribly long ears.


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## Pamela

maybe they are still puppies and will grow into their poodle looks? I dunno. We paid 350 for each of our minis - Gabie would have definitely been show material but Cassie is thicker and stockier even though they are litter mates. Cassie lookes like the mother and Gabie looks like thier father who was a show dog. Most of her adults looked liked Cassie to me. I paid 750 for Ginger which was less expensive than I thought I would have to pay, but I don't like the way they raise the pups with no social behavior to humans except for the husband - they seemed to love him and not even know the woman.


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## SECRETO

I'd have to agree with Gitit....those pups do not look purebred. Sure maybe the apricot parti could pass but not the multi-colored pup. When you have a sable aren't they supposed to be the sable color with different high and dark tones of the same color? Thats just different colors.....it does looks like a Shitz, poodle mix for sure. 

Oh, yes thats correct that both parti and sable colors are not permited in the AKC. I prefer to stay close to the AKC guidelines as possible. The AKC is a very reputable respected registry and they like to keep the breeds as close to there natural origin as possible. (color, size, etc) I like that...these phantom Poodle's people are producing and all the other colors people make up names for are going to far. (my opinion) Why can't people just stick to the breed's standard? Royal Poodles, Phantom and even some parti's are getting away from the standard. This happens with a lot of the more popular breeds though.....it's just ashame some people look at producing puppies as income instead of improving the breed. This is why breeds are now being ruined.


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## Pamela

I like the parti poodles -


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## SECRETO

Pamela said:


> I like the parti poodles -





I should have left the parti Poodle comment out of there. I do like Parti Poodles as well (black and white) but hate to see people breeding them poorly because they know people jump all over a parti color. I see a lot of "Royal Poodles" and Parti listed as rare for 1500.00 and they look aweful. Yes I know 1500.00 isn't bad for a Poodle but poorly bred calling it rare is irritating.


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## Pamela

I loved the picture of that rescued poodle boy - I forgot his name - he had red hari on his head and was largely white - he was beautiful.


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## Pamela

I also love Purple Poodles parti girl - she's pretty!


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## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> I'd have to agree with Gitit....those pups do not look purebred. Sure maybe the apricot parti could pass but not the multi-colored pup. When you have a sable aren't they supposed to be the sable color with different high and dark tones of the same color? Thats just different colors.....it does looks like a Shitz, poodle mix for sure.
> 
> Oh, yes thats correct that both parti and sable colors are not permited in the AKC. I prefer to stay close to the AKC guidelines as possible. The AKC is a very reputable respected registry and they like to keep the breeds as close to there natural origin as possible. (color, size, etc) I like that...these phantom Poodle's people are producing and all the other colors people make up names for are going to far. (my opinion) Why can't people just stick to the breed's standard? Royal Poodles, Phantom and even some parti's are getting away from the standard. This happens with a lot of the more popular breeds though.....it's just ashame some people look at producing puppies as income instead of improving the breed. This is why breeds are now being ruined.


I take offense to that  AKC is not as great as some people believe it is, I have heard many upsetting things from people who showed AKC for years who no longer do because of what went on. But that's neither here nor there. Poodles started out being Parti Colored but when the American Standard was written those who wrote it did not want multi colored coated dogs included. AKC has never upheld the true origin of the breed and its the parent clubs that do the accepting and changing of the breeds. I personally think the Swedish Kennel Club is one of the best there is and they go buy the FCI which IS about keep to the true origin of the breed as is the UKC but like I said thats here nor there.

There are many colors in Poodles and some that were bred in buy unscrupulous breeders, like Merle. Its the same way with the Shar Pei, they can come with Pi-Bald coats but for some reason American breeders did not want them to be. Even now a days you will see marked puppies born to high quality dogs but they are never spoken about.

So don't be to quick to bad mouth multi colored dogs  I do agree that there are those who jumped on the Parti bandwagon for all the wrong reason and those people should be stopped.

Aww, thank you Pamela!


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## SECRETO

Purple Poodle said:


> I take offense to that  AKC is not as great as some people believe it is, I have heard many upsetting things from people who showed AKC for years who no longer do because of what went on. But that's neither here nor there. Poodles started out being Parti Colored but when the American Standard was written those who wrote it did not want multi colored coated dogs included. AKC has never upheld the true origin of the breed and its the parent clubs that do the accepting and changing of the breeds. I personally think the Swedish Kennel Club is one of the best there is and they go buy the FCI which IS about keep to the true origin of the breed as is the UKC but like I said thats here nor there.
> 
> There are many colors in Poodles and some that were bred in buy unscrupulous breeders, like Merle. Its the same way with the Shar Pei, they can come with Pi-Bald coats but for some reason American breeders did not want them to be. Even now a days you will see marked puppies born to high quality dogs but they are never spoken about.
> 
> So don't be to quick to bad mouth multi colored dogs  I do agree that there are those who jumped on the Parti bandwagon for all the wrong reason and those people should be stopped.
> 
> Aww, thank you Pamela!




Sorry PP but not all these colors you see are normal characteristics of the breeds. (most are not) When you see some of these colors (merle for instance) its not because this is what the breed originally produced and its correct. Most of the time its because people are breeding colors to colors that are NOT supposed to be. Then after they get that color they breed it back to another dog with Merle. Then its a supposed Rare color... Dumb! Yes, I don't know all the facts but I do know that certain colors such as merle are produced because people want to be the first to have these so called "rare" colors. So they continue to breed these colors into there lines. 

I also think the reason those "high quality marked dogs you are talking about that not spoken about" is because its usually just spayed and sold as a pet. They prefer not to breed that back in there lines. Ecspecially Poodle breeder's ....I see that alot of them focus on either white and black or silver and black etc. If they pop out a parti pup and thats not what they want incorporated in the breeding program then its spayed/nuet and sold as a pet. Whats to really talk about....


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## Purple Poodle

SECRETO said:


> Sorry PP but not all these colors you see are normal characteristics of the breeds. (most are not) When you see some of these colors (merle for instance) its not because this is what the breed originally produced and its correct. Most of the time its because people are breeding colors to colors that are NOT supposed to be. Then after they get that color they breed it back to another dog with Merle. Then its a supposed Rare color... Dumb! Yes, I don't know all the facts but I do know that certain colors such as merle are produced because people want to be the first to have these so called "rare" colors. So they continue to breed these colors into there lines.
> 
> I also think the reason those "high quality marked dogs you are talking about that not spoken about" is because its usually just spayed and sold as a pet. They prefer not to breed that back in there lines. Ecspecially Poodle breeder's ....I see that alot of them focus on either white and black or silver and black etc. If they pop out a parti pup and thats not what they want incorporated in the breeding program then its spayed/nuet and sold as a pet. Whats to really talk about....


I agree that Merle is NOT a color originally found in Poodles and it should not be bred for. I don't think brindle or sable are either maybe not even black and tan but Parti was the FIRST color Poodles came in so its hard to ignore that. The reason Black and White dogs are focused on is because that is what started winning in the ring so that's what was bred. I don't see why people are so against bi-colored Poodles or Shar Pei. It does not hinder them in any way in what they were bred to do and is not tied with any health defects. Poodle history is not a clear one but going buy what we do know bi-colored or Pied Poodles are naturally accruing in the breed. Color fads come and go and right now the fad for Standard Poodles in bi-color.


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## Pamela

I got this on line

The history of the Poodle and the history of the Parti Poodle are actually one in the same. In the very beginnings of the breed, in either Germany or Russia (the Poodle is not French!), the Poodle existed as only three types. Either solid black, solid white, or a black and white, known as the Parti-colored Poodle. 

The term “Parti” technically refers to any poodle who’s coat is of more than one color, IE: Part one color, part another color. For the solid Poodle breeders, many think the Mismark, Phantom, and the Parti are one in the same. This is not true. A Mismarked Poodle is any Poodle in which the coat consists of one primary color and perhaps some other light “mismarkings” which are almost always white. But when this Poodle is shaved down, the skin of the Poodle is all one solid color. With a true genetic Parti, when you shave them down, the skin is very obviously two separate and completely different colors with strong break lines between the colors. Also, the primary coat color of the Parti is white, with the other color being any one of the other accepted Poodle colors. The Phantom is usually a black, brown, or blue dog with the tan point pattern but apricot and cream phantoms do also exist.


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## WonderPup

Just to pop off another one of my little factoids, the AKC doesn't write the breed standards, the parents club does that. In the US thats the Poodle Club of America I believe. So, AKC isn't responsible for what colors are and are not accepted, the membership of the PCA is. Breed standards can be changed but those changes have to be presented to the membership of the parenmt club and voted on to be accepted. AKC has very little control over what the parent clubs, ie breeders, choose to do with their breeds.


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## Educate yourselves

*I believe in educating before opinoniating*

Look, you along with many other people become judge and jury on subjects you really know nothing about. 
Have you done research on Geneology? I have. and I am not a geneoligist. but the information is available. 
Every dog breed that is established through AKC, has been included in a discussion, and or particapation in breeding any purebred dog. to establish it as a reconized breed and that paticular breed standard, which is always subject to change. they change breed standards all the time, in what is acceptable and unacceptable. 
There is a merle gene among others that can be produced in any given dog breed. weather it is intentional or by genetics and unexpected. 
for example the Carin Terrier has it's breed standard in coat colors and years ago a man, I can't recall his name" it can be looked up. was hunting rodents with his Carin Terrier when he among others had mistakenly shot his own dog. so he thought how can I have a hunting dog that I won't accidently get shot, he was visiting a friend and noticed that they had a litter of Carin Terriers and one of them happen to be white. so he bought that puppy and searched for another pup to bred to the first one. as to produce the white coat. and that is how the West highland White terrier was produced. from rejects of the Carin . 
There are no set laws and rules on coat colors. unless it will cause harm to the animal that you are tring to duplicate it color in its offspring. Colors are and should be the least of any breeders worries. as long as the dogs and puppies are healthy and as close to breed standard as possible. Which the breed standard can change at any time the commity sees fit to do so. Colors have been and still are being added to various breeds of dogs previously and still today. It all has to do with the mellanian. and spliting genes. a double merle we all know is not a healthy thing to breed for in any breed. as it produces at least 25% to 50% unhealthy, blind deaf . deformed occasionally puppies. 
Were you aware of the big time breeders the ones that show their dog in all the high class shows . breed their champion dogs to other champion dogs and when the litter is born they cull the litter. they put down a, what to most people be a perfect pet. but it has an extra dew claw. or a few hairs of the wrong color. so they put those puppies to sleep. That should be more of an issue than a breeds color.


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## Blue Fox

Welcome Educate Yourself. While I appreciate your post I suggest you tone down the aggression. This is a very friendly, easy going forum and personally I am not about to let it degenerate into one of the many other bitchy forums where people think it is OK to belittle others with rude, opinionated posts.

If you want to educate before opinionate then you might care to choose softer opening words next time. JMO!


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## Sivaro

Not sure what post you are talking about BF, but now I have to go check everywhere


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## Blue Fox

The one just before mine in this thread Siv from Educate Yourself.


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## Sivaro

Educate yourselves said:


> Were you aware of the big time breeders the ones that show their dog in all the high class shows . breed their champion dogs to other champion dogs and when the litter is born they cull the litter. they put down a, what to most people be a perfect pet. but it has an extra dew claw. or a few hairs of the wrong color. so they put those puppies to sleep. That should be more of an issue than a breeds color.


You are talking about something that happened in the dark ages. For heavens sake, get a grip.


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## Sivaro

SECRETO said:


> So the other day I came across an add for Standard Poodle puppies and inquired about them. The lady sent me a email this evening of her stud, the bitch and her two pups. I was absolutely appolled (sp) by what I seen.
> 
> Not to mention in the brief conversation we had she said her pups are sold on limited registration. That meaning you have no breeding rights and your dog is limited to what events they can be entered in through AKC. Unless you want to pay more... $600.00 limited and $1,000 with out limited status.
> 
> Anyway, here are the pics I see when I open this email.....OMG!!!! Why in the h*** do people breed dogs like that. What is she thinking???? This lady is a regular breeder and has two litter's on the ground right now. Im still just beside myself that people do this. :banghead:



Unfortunately some ppl are in it for the money and not to improve the breed. *bangs head* Some ppl need a good swift kick up the backside.


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## *heather*

interesting reading here... then it suddenly ended...  just when it was getting good! lol 
Still curious about the original poster... did that breeder ever respond to you? What a shame.


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## mandi

I could not see the pic of the Standard yorkie-actually I never heard of a Standard yorkie. I researched them last yr as I was going to buy a small dog but went with poodles instead (think I made a good choice). Plus a purebred Yorkie could not be 25 lbs..LOL...sometimes I think I wd like to do dog grooming but you must handle a lot of strange customers.


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## mandi

Seems like a troller came in-?


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## *heather*

holy, this thread has had 12,709 views!! wow, that seems like a lot to me! Lol


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## mandi

Really-maybe they're nice dogs-but why put the picture of the poor mom on a website-be better not to put any pics out there-I know one can't judge the dogs by a website-breeders can make themselves look good-but in this case...you will definitely have low expectations.


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## Aidan

I think most of the goldendoodles that come in for grooming are pretty cute but they usually don't get groomed enough to have a well maintained coat, unfortunately.

I would definitely consider having one someday if I could get one through rescue or a rehome situation, i couldn't ever see spending a lot of money on one of the doodle breeds.


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## mandi

They are precious-nothing wrong with mixed breeds-if their temperament is good-just keep them healthy and know what you're paying for if you have to put out some cash.


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## mandi

Really-I always liked the Tibetan Spaniels!


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## mandi

Boy-you can say that again! My ex always loved the beagle look-but we could never manage them-they take a really firm hand-a big scent hound...and a terrible bark-looks can be deceiving.


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## Cdnjennga

Wow, this thread really did take some twists and turns! I'm on the fence about the doodle breeds. I mean, all breeds started somewhere. The Labradoodle makes sense to me as a breed because it was bred for a purpose, to create a better guide dog. Breeding all these random crosses, doing no health testing and charging huge amounts of money makes less sense to me. As someone said earlier in the thread, dogs exist that already fill the function these new "breeds" are supposed to fil.


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## Harley_chik

I don't get the "doodles." I know they were originally bred to be a better guide dog, but that was quickly abandoned b/c they aren't reliably low shedding dogs. It's hit or miss, some have poodly coats and others shed. If you check out some of the groomer forums, it's pretty evident that they are harder to maintain than a spoo. The breeders also tell people they only need to be groomed "once a year and should never be shaved". I also don't see why a Standard Poodle isn't just as good. They might have had to breed for a larger size, but that's still better than crossbreeding. Has anyone here ever seen a "doodle" guide dog? If they worked for that purpose, you would see them everywhere. A low allergen service would make things not only easier for the disabled person, but anyone around that might suffer from allergies or someone who doesn't want mounds of lab/shepherd hair left behind. Yes, every breed started somewhere, but none were sold as a new breed, for big bucks, the first litter. Add that to the fact that most breeds were bred for a working purpose, there weren't millions of homeless dogs being euthanized at the time and the fact that people were limited by geography, and I just don't see a need for all these crossbreeds or breeding less than spectacular purebreds. "Doodle" breeders want money, period. If they were interested in creating a new breed they would have a standard and a breed club, but those would cut into profits.


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## Cdnjennga

Harley_chik, I do agree with you on most of your points. I have also been looking into rescue for about 8 months and the number of Cockapoos, Shipoos and whatever other poos that come up is pretty high. Obviously people get sucked into those cute pup faces and don't realize some of these crossbreeds are pretty high energy. They also don't realize they're not "hypoallergenic". No breed is, but you have a better chance with a poodle than you do with a cross breed, which is one of the reasons I settled on poodles.

I do think the Labradoodle is on its way to becoming an established breed though, especially in Australia, where it originated. They have a breed club there and are pushing ahead for recognition. http://www.laa.org.au/ Some guide dog organizations in Australia also continue to breed and use the Labradoodle.


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## PonkiPoodles

I've met quite a few puggles and I have to say I've never liked their personalities. 

As far as designer breeds are concerned, Ponki is a yorki-poo... and I'll never trade her for anything else in this world! But I knew the day I got her that she would be spayed - no questions asked, even thou my vet (of all people) told me that she has such a great personality, and perfect teeth that I should breed her!!! :crazy: Luckily I had more common sense that that at the time 

I have to confess, I got Ponki long before I even knew what puppy mill or byb meant. I only realized afterwards that I was most likely supporting a commerial breeder when I got her. 

I realized that most people are just very un-educated when it comes to breeders in general - that is why those people are still cashing in on selling puppies! People believe all the cr[email protected] that they are told by puppy millers and byb's... all they need is a reply like the one you got Secreto to feel better about buying a puppy from horrible looking parents - if they even ever see the parents! 
And I say this cause when someone doesn't know anything about the AKC etc. or purebred dogs and/or showing/owning a dog, you can tell them just about anything (you could probably put "LOL" next to the name and sell it for more)

I think even thou puppy mills and byb's are nothing new... it most likely is a relatively new term to most first time dog owners.


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## PonkiPoodles

mandi said:


> I could not see the pic of the Standard yorkie-actually I never heard of a Standard yorkie. I researched them last yr as I was going to buy a small dog but went with poodles instead (think I made a good choice). Plus a purebred Yorkie could not be 25 lbs..LOL...sometimes I think I wd like to do dog grooming but you must handle a lot of strange customers.


I don't think there is anything like a standard yorkie - they are probably mistaking it with a silky terrier - which looks very similar to a yorkie, but is bigger.

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/silkyd/breeddifferences.htm


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## aki

To the original post, neither of those dogs should have been bred at all. I'm not a poodle expert, and I have never showed, but even I could tell they didn't look right. Not to mention the poor condition of the mother. That's the reality of BYBs and puppymills.

I dislike any of those designer breeds who have been bred purposefully for the sake of making 'yorkiepoos', 'goldendoodles', 'puggles', etc. Yes they may be cute, though to me a lot of them are pretty ugly, but most of them have not had the proper health test and are being bred for the sole purpose of spinning a profit. Thus you get poorly bred crossbreeds. So on top of people who are destroying the breed itself, we now have people making these designer breeds with crappy dogs. Not to mention how they believe its a new breed, or a hybrid breed. I say just call it what it is, a mutt or a mixed breed. There is nothing wrong with that, but of course these BYB's and puppymills can't sell the dog for an outrageous price if it's just called a mutt. It's sad that to make themselves feel better about spending $2000 on a mutt they call it a hybrid. They could just as easily gotten a lovely rescue mix for an adoption fee, or hell, just spent the 2 grand on a well-bred poodle. Also, I have nothing against mixes or mutts. They can be great dogs, but I hate when these doodle owners get all defensive when you say "Oh, he's a mix", and go on and on about how he is different from other mixes and that he is a new breed or hybrid. Just call the dog for what it is, just because it's not purebred doesn't denote it's significance as your dog.

And I don't think a labradoodle(or any mixes) should be recognized as a breed. Simply because what you get out of this mix can vary with each breeding. Australian labradoodles who are bred from doodle x doodle are closer to becoming a breed then the American one, but I see an bad future ahead if they are recognized as a breed. Instead of breeding doodles for generations like the Australians are doing, people will just continue to cross poodle x lab and say that the dog is purebred. Puppy buyers will be sucked in by the cute face and end up buying.

But, I digress. I just don't understand these crossbreedings. Why couldn't people just train poodles as guide dogs instead of crossbreeding? Wouldn't that be simpler?


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## spoospirit

_That is so sad. Seeing that mother made me want to cry...poor thing. I think this is the first time I have seem picture of dogs of a byb. That should be a crime.

Just going to weigh in on the mix bred dogs. I have seen two really beautiful doodles; one a labradoodle and one a golden doodle. The labradoodle was very large and incorrigible being a handful for his owner who was a large, strong man. The golden doodle has the personality of the poodle and is an absolute love. 

I did own a golden doodle for about six months. When I got her, she was a sweet puppy and cute as could be. As she grew older, I still thought she was cute although many might have thought she was unattractive (beauty is in the eye of the beholder). Suddenly, her personality changed and she was off the wall; literally! She started counter surfing and nothing we did could stop her. She was stubborn and wanted to run everywhere all day long. It was exhausting just to watch her. She was not a 'bad' dog but certainly became more than my husband and I could manage. She possessed the personality of the Labrador and none of the poodle and, yes, she shed. The shedding was not an issue but her unbridled energy was.

I was able to re-home her with a great family that had young and teenage children who could keep her busy with play time and give her lots of love. I was really happy that she found a home that she fit into but I will never buy another mix like that again.

As it was stated, the poople was developed through cross breeding. But it was done over many, many years and with a goal to have a purebred dog that would meet what the breeders were looking for. I am not surprised that the Australian line is now looking for recognition but the American breeders are no where near that. No one has a goal in mind for this cross-breeding other than to make money. Every puppy looks different and possesses personalities that vary widely. This makes the end result unpredictable. You may get an adult like the golden doodle I mentioned or you may end up with one like the labradoodle and there is no way to know what you are going to have in the end. This just sets the dogs up for a certain downfall and that is not fair to them.

I wasn't educated when I got my labradoodle but now that I am, I definitely see the problems and that it is not right to be breeding them just for profit. Too many people fall for the 'non-shedding, great personality like the poodle' bit not knowing what the heck they are going to have as that dog matures. The breeder stuffs the money in their pocket, the owner is faced with the difficult decision of what to do with this poor dog that didn't meet expectations, and the real victim here is the dog who, more often than not, ends up in a bad situation for them. _


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## roxy25

aki said:


> To the original post, neither of those dogs should have been bred at all. I'm not a poodle expert, and I have never showed, but even I could tell they didn't look right. Not to mention the poor condition of the mother. That's the reality of BYBs and puppymills.
> 
> I dislike any of those designer breeds who have been bred purposefully for the sake of making 'yorkiepoos', 'goldendoodles', 'puggles', etc. Yes they may be cute, though to me a lot of them are pretty ugly, but most of them have not had the proper health test and are being bred for the sole purpose of spinning a profit. Thus you get poorly bred crossbreeds. So on top of people who are destroying the breed itself, we now have people making these designer breeds with crappy dogs. Not to mention how they believe its a new breed, or a hybrid breed. I say just call it what it is, a mutt or a mixed breed. There is nothing wrong with that, but of course these BYB's and puppymills can't sell the dog for an outrageous price if it's just called a mutt. It's sad that to make themselves feel better about spending $2000 on a mutt they call it a hybrid. They could just as easily gotten a lovely rescue mix for an adoption fee, or hell, just spent the 2 grand on a well-bred poodle. Also, I have nothing against mixes or mutts. They can be great dogs, but I hate when these doodle owners get all defensive when you say "Oh, he's a mix", and go on and on about how he is different from other mixes and that he is a new breed or hybrid. Just call the dog for what it is, just because it's not purebred doesn't denote it's significance as your dog.
> 
> And I don't think a labradoodle(or any mixes) should be recognized as a breed. Simply because what you get out of this mix can vary with each breeding. Australian labradoodles who are bred from doodle x doodle are closer to becoming a breed then the American one, but I see an bad future ahead if they are recognized as a breed. Instead of breeding doodles for generations like the Australians are doing, people will just continue to cross poodle x lab and say that the dog is purebred. Puppy buyers will be sucked in by the cute face and end up buying.
> 
> But, I digress. I just don't understand these crossbreedings. Why couldn't people just train poodles as guide dogs instead of crossbreeding? Wouldn't that be simpler?


I agree with you 100%


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## puppylove

Hi, I am a new member and a first time fosterer. I own a wonderful Australian Shepherd (bought by my now deceased husband from a not very responsible BYB) that I wouldn't trade for anything. I was interested in a poodle because I was considering becoming a two dog household and am just tired of so much dog hair. I contacted my local poodle rescue and was talked into fostering a poodle-lab mix (I just can't say Labradoodle anymore). She's a very sweet 9-month old who has had no training whatsoever, not housebroken, is terrified of everything, won't let anyone touch her except me (and that only after many days of patient coaxing), digs, chews, pees on the carpet, and has every other bad habit for which a wild adolescent dog gets abandoned. 

She is recognizable as one of those "doodle" dogs but I am now insisting to every one that she is a lab mix. This after a lady at the dog park asked me if she was a Labradoodle (last time I said yes) and then said: I want to invent a new breed but I haven't yet decided which two to mix. Then turned to her friend and mentioned different breeds that she thought might be cute together. Don't you just love dog-lovers?

My foster has none of those fine qualities that these dogs are advertised as having. She sheds, she has a very strong doggy odor (and gets bathed pretty frequently). She really doesn't seem to be all that bright...you'd never know she is the offspring of two dogs rated in the top ten for intelligence. Someone probably paid thousands for her when she was an adorable puppy. Now she has the head of Lab, the lanky body of a poodle without the grace, different kinds of fur on different parts of her body. 

I'm sure when she's ready to go to her forever home she will go fast because the idiot general population believes the ridiculous hype these mutts get. Don't let anyone tell you these dogs can't be found in shelters or rescue organizations. They are getting abandoned everywhere when they grow out of their cute puppy stage and it's discovered that only a very small percentage are non-shedding and hypoallergenic. The service-dog program in Australia that started this fad was abandoned many years ago as a failure. Now it's all hype, fed by the ridiculous prices the puppies get for their breeders. 

I am becoming more attached to my ridiculous foster mutt every day and I know she will be a great dog. But only because I will have spent the time and energy to create her new personality with love and training. That's what really makes the personality of the perfect dog. Everyone believes their favorite breed has the best temperament and it's always because their dog is well loved. Look at the variety in temperaments that come in the poodle breed (and every Australian Shepherd I have owned in the last 50 years has had a different personality). 

Long-winded tirade...I'm sorry. I'm just sickened by all I have recently learned about "doodles". All dogs can be great dogs. These are mutts that can sometimes grow up to be wonderfully adorable and sweet and well-behaved. But to fool the public into paying thousands of dollars under the misconception that they are getting something rare and special and predictable??? 

And I haven't even gotten started on those "responsible breeders" who really care about the welfare of the "breed". That could be a whole other too-long tirade. 

I still hope to adopt a standard poodle someday. I think they are incredibly beautiful and graceful and their intelligence is legendary. But I will admit to falling in love with my silly, smelly, shedding, digging, chewing, carpet/furniture destroying mutt. I promise if she ends up being my dog she will never be a Doodle...she'll be a lab-mix (unless she turns out to be incredibly cute, smart and athletic and then she'll be a poodle-mix!).


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## *heather*

well said!! and :welcome: to the forum!


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## spoospirit

_That is the best reply I have read in this thread! 

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to hearing more from you and would love to see some pics.
_


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## mandi

Hi puppylove...I hope you are able to train your lab mix and she can become a good pet for you. Like you said yourself, it's not what they're called as far as breeds go, but what an owner puts into them to make them a good pet. Good luck to you both!


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## mercymoon

Wow someone dug up this older thread, lol. Those pictures still are horrible.


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## akbritt

What happened to the Momma dog's tail???


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## mercymoon

akbritt said:


> What happened to the Momma dog's tail???


Docked way to short, I have a toy poodle and his tail is like this too.


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## jak

The poor mother has no substance to her back legs, is too skinny and her ears are kinda screwed up. The poor father's back is curved inwards and his legs are really weird. It's hard to tell but it looks like he is multi coloured, which is fine, but correct me if im wrong, but doesnt that make it kinda hard to be registered? So probably result of backyard breeding 

Those poor puppies as well, they look like they have roach backs or something. It just really pisses me off when ppl just breed for money and have no concern for the puppies health. I wish the government would take stronger action, but I guess if we cant even look after our own, then It will be a long time before are canine friends will get a chance

I think the royal poodle thing developed from the name of standard poodles in french 'Caniche Royale'= standard poodle, and caniche moyen= min, caniche nain= toy.


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## frostfirestandards

I despise the doodle word 
I am allergic to dogs, even poodles. over time i develop an immunity to my own dogs and can tolerate their dander(plus mine are groomed regularly) 
Awhile back a "breeder" of doodles surrendered 10 of his dogs to animal control. I hadn't been around a bunch of doodles before, but these guys were so sad. 3 or 4 had already been adopted, but we took 2 to foster, a 4-5 year old female and a 9 month old male. they were scared of everything, mama doodle was a little better than the boy, she would ask for attention all the time. They were very dog social and friendly, but terrified of people and not at all used to being housepets. OH and guess what? They shedded all over the place!!!! they made my nose itch and run, my eyes water, I had a sinus headache for the first week. 

No matter if people are breeding 2 purebred dogs or 2 mutts off the street, I can't condone breeding for profit. 
The average doodle goes for 1500-2500
I paid 1200 for Kaden, who has a great champion pedigree, both parents are finished champions and fully tested 

Willow was 1500 with a puppy back - again champion pedigree, daddy finished in europe before coming to the states to get his AKC CH. mama is finished as well and again both are fully tested. 

now I ask how in the world can people get 1500-2500 for mutts with no testing? 

ARRRGH!


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## Bella's Momma

Purple Poodle said:


> Hell just get a Golden or a Poodle or what have you I see no reason what so ever to mix them when there are existing breeds that fit the bill.


Yeah, I don't get it either. Or if you don't have a desire for a specific breed then get a mixed breed from a rescue or something, but why are people paying big bucks for these doodles? I know I am new to poodles, but just what do these other breeds bring to the table to 'better' the poodle? And I say that having grown up with labs and goldens who were perfectly *sneeze* delightful, albeit slightly neurotic, *sneeze* animals.  I always wanted to get a chocolate lab someday, until the allergies developed. So I have a chocolate poodle. 

How is breeding a lab and a poodle a 'better' guide dog? 

Also, what is a 'phantom' poodle?


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## spoospirit

a phantom is a poodle that is marked like a doberman; black coat with rust colored makings.


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## jak

This is a phantom spoo

I really like them they are so cute when fluffly


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## *heather*

spoospirit said:


> a phantom is a poodle that is marked like a doberman; black coat with rust colored makings.


they can be a variety of colors as well as the black and tan  they kinda look like they have a mask on their faces  
http://www.htpoodles.com/photos-phantom-1.html?gallery=3


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## Bella's Momma

Thanks. I've never seen a poodle like that, or maybe I have and didn't know what it was. LOL. I've never seen a parti, either.


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## Fluffyspoos

They never called them designer breeds when I was growing up.. they called them accidents. 

I call my dog a mutt all the time, lol, but she is! And I never see anything wrong in saying it, she doesn't care, and people just laugh.


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## PonkiPoodles

Fluffyspoos said:


> They never called them designer breeds when I was growing up.. they called them accidents.
> 
> I call my dog a mutt all the time, lol, but she is! And I never see anything wrong in saying it, she doesn't care, and people just laugh.


I can think of a quite a few other names we use to call them too (pavement-special/street-accident when 2 strays have puppies, mongrel etc.)
Strange how a sales gimmick can change some people's point of view.


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## Sivaro

The worst thing Jenn, is these ppl are everywhere and only care about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ coming in. Unfortunately there is no way to stop them unless you can prove abuse of the animal. We fight a never ending battle on these backyarders and farmers.


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## flyingduster

just going back to prices again, Jak just sent me a link to some spoo pups online for $795 each. I know the username as being a breeder of labradoodles (albeit nicely bred and consistantly australian lines) and sure enough if I look at their other listings, they also have a litter of labradoodle puppies being sold for $1950 each. Um, k. Gimmie a cheap spoo any day


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## WonderPup

Omg... how much for the doodle??? Holy cow. I haven't seen them for that much before, but I haven't ever seen them advertised cheaply either. Now I wonder WHY my mother educated me to be a responsible dog owner in general and instilled a very strong code of ethics in me as a breeder. I could breed a litter of doodles and make a million.... lol. I wouldnt have to worry about having a job, just crank out a couple litters a year tell everyone who will listen that they are better than any dog out there and healthier than any breed, and no of course they don't shed and sell them 1500 bucks a pop.... Sheesh, why work hard grooming and training??  

Ugh, just a sick concept how easy that sounds. Awful


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## jak

Lol, I think that was another thread that it was on
http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=3851
Post #62 lol


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## jak

WonderPup said:


> Omg... how much for the doodle??? Holy cow. I haven't seen them for that much before, but I haven't ever seen them advertised cheaply either. Now I wonder WHY my mother educated me to be a responsible dog owner in general and instilled a very strong code of ethics in me as a breeder. I could breed a litter of doodles and make a million.... lol. I wouldnt have to worry about having a job, just crank out a couple litters a year tell everyone who will listen that they are better than any dog out there and healthier than any breed, and no of course they don't shed and sell them 1500 bucks a pop.... Sheesh, why work hard grooming and training??
> 
> Ugh, just a sick concept how easy that sounds. Awful


That $1950 is in New Zealand dollars, so is $1386.06 in USD, but still a lot of Money! Ridiculous, but whats also very annoying about that is they are using one of my dogs relatives! From her breeder, most likely in their program  and reading the listing they said the stud for the $1950 litter is: *drum rolls*

"to our wonderful stud boy ( who has now gone back to Australia) Rutlands Lil Splendor. "

*gag*


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## flyingduster

yup, while a direct conversion makes it cheaper, but when you compare the prices to general cheaper living costs & lower incomes etc in NZ, then the price is fairly comparitive with it being about $1950 US too...
this is a screen shot of the listings by this person to see:


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## jak

flyingduster said:


> yup, while a direct conversion makes it cheaper, but when you compare the prices to general cheaper living costs & lower incomes etc in NZ, then the price is fairly comparitive with it being about $1950 US too...
> this is a screen shot of the listings by this person to see:


True, that just makes me so sad, especially cos they have one of my dog's relatives, and it could have easily have been Saffy *gasp*
Just makes me glad I have Saffy


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## jak

Man, it just gets worse,

our proud "Australian Labradoodle" breeder over here, is extremely proud her dogs come from Rutland Manor and Tegan Park? I mean seriously WTF????
http://www.labradoodle.co.nz
For those of you that don't know,

go to http://stoprutlandmanor.wordpress.com/


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