# Dollie ate her chicken back!



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

YAY~ Did you hold it for her?


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

Yea I did. But she was so considerate of her food....if that makes sense. It was like, no big deal. I'm so happy and thanks to everyone on their advice. I guess I'll see what poops out in the end!!


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

It makes quite a sound, doesn't it? Listening to the crunching was the hardest part for me.


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> It makes quite a sound, doesn't it? Listening to the crunching was the hardest part for me.


The crunching didn't bother me but I think it was because I was right there. If she started to gag...well that's when I would worry.

I guess you're a real poodle mom (or dad) when the highlight of your weekend was having your baby eat a chicken back and when the PF thread called "poop color" was the first one read!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

LOL - its a fascinating time for sure! She sounds like a natural.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Princess Dollie said:


> The crunching didn't bother me but I think it was because I was right there. If she started to gag...well that's when I would worry.
> 
> *I guess you're a real poodle mom (or dad) when the highlight of your weekend was having your baby eat a chicken back and when the PF thread called "poop color" was the first one read!*





LOL so true Princess Dollie. I also used to feed raw several years ago for a duration of 5 years and may have continued had the supply not dwindeled in my area. I used to purchase chicken carcasses (frozen individually in a huge carton box for a mere $15.00 which was a great price) then one day during the summer I went to the same butcher and ordered the carcases and he said he will not have the available for me during the summer and why not I asked... his response was.. get this.. and it is true, he has confirmed this to me , he said that McDonalds orders a ton of chick. carcasses from him during the summer especially because their chicken nuggets are made with ground chicken carcasses with that tiny bit of meat still on them.. So now folks we all know if we do like Chick Nugets from McDonalds what these are all about  Certainly came as a surprise to me.. 
Having 1 or 2 dogs is ok when your area has only 1-2 suppliers of raw meat for your dogs, but when as a breeder I have to scrounge and run out of town to be able to have alot of RMB for my puppies in order to wean them onto raw becomes a frustration and that is the main reason I quit raw and am now feeing a great food I have had much success with and it is Fromm four stars (salmon/ veggies) and for the one dog I own who is allergic to grain, I use Acana Pacifica.. both great foods. I cook for my dogs so they do always get the extra which may be missing in the bag.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> LOL so true Princess Dollie. I also used to feed raw several years ago for a duration of 5 years and may have continued had the supply not dwindeled in my area. I used to purchase chicken carcasses (frozen individually in a huge carton box for a mere $15.00 which was a great price) then one day during the summer I went to the same butcher and ordered the carcases and he said he will not have the available for me during the summer and why not I asked... his response was.. get this.. and it is true, he has confirmed this to me , he said that McDonalds orders a ton of chick. carcasses from him during the summer especially because their chicken nuggets are made with ground chicken carcasses with that tiny bit of meat still on them.. So now folks we all know if we do like Chick Nugets from McDonalds what these are all about  Certainly came as a surprise to me..


Wow, I guess McDonalds is a lot better for you then I thought. :aetsch:


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> a great food I have had much success with and it is Fromm four stars (salmon/ veggies) and for the one dog I own who is allergic to grain, I use Acana Pacifica.. both great foods.


Good to know about the chicken nuggets. I don't eat those things but I have loved ones that do. :yuck:

I have Corky on Orijen Adult. She’s six years old and does great on that. She gets an occasional NV Venison or Bison Medallion.

I started Dollie on Orijen puppy but it contained chicken and her allergies seemed to be “blooming” as she was getting older so I switched her to NV Lamb.

If I had to go back to kibble for Dollie, I would definitely look at Acana Pacifica.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Princess Dollie:

Pls. Pls. be very careful with Orijen. 

1. When you have a young puppy, Origen is too rich and is very high (too high) in protein as a result of being a grain free kibble.

Young puppies given that much protein , grow way too fast and their skeletal structure grows slower than their bodies, as such you may risk having panosteitis (growing pains) in your puppy if you feed it a forumula which is too high in protein. 

My puppies are reared on either Fromm (4 star) Salmon/ Veggies (contains grain) or on Fromm (4 star) Surf and Turf. The altter has only 30% protein which is excellent for both young growing pups and adult dogs.. it is a sort of in between protein level I feel comfortable with but definitely not Orijen for the large breeds.

Also...

2. If you feed an older dog which is more sedentary than a young pup such a high protein content (40%) you risk pancreatitis and also the food is way too rich for their old age. I would rather keep a dog that old on a medium level protein at most 30% (as is in Surf and Turf) and not take a chance to put a heavy load on their kidneys who will have to work three times as hard if the body is fed such a high concentration of protein.

Any dog food which is fish or meat based and contains no grain will be very high in protein since grain is a filler which reduces the protein level in the food if grain is present.

For me and I am only speaking from personal experience the either Surf and Turf by Fromm (at 30% protein) or the Acana Pacifica again 32% protein is the ideal balance and I have produced hips in both Cole and my LOla which are OFA Excellent so that does say something about what we put into and feed our dogs.

I also give home cooked food to my dogs comprising of lentils, legumes, and ground beef with green leaf lettuce and mix two heaping spoons into their kibble, which as it is will increase their protein intake somewhat.


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks whitepoodles. I knew that Orijen was very high in protein. That's another reason why I got Dollie off it quickly; but, I never considered the possible effects on an older dog. I just noticed Corky's coat being much shinier.

Actually, since we're talking about Corky now, I bought a small bag of Orijen the last time I was at the store. I am contemplating making the switch to raw with her also....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Princess Dollie said:


> Thanks whitepoodles. I knew that Orijen was very high in protein. That's another reason why I got Dollie off it quickly; but, I never considered the possible effects on an older dog. I just noticed Corky's coat being much shinier.
> 
> Actually, since we're talking about Corky now, I bought a small bag of Orijen the last time I was at the store. I am contemplating making the switch to raw with her also....


just DO it!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Personally I would LOVE to do raw, and did it for 5 years but when I needed alot of RMB (chick necks etc.) for my puppies to start weaning them onto raw solid food, I found myself in a bind and with very little supply.

Apparently in Montreal area the demand is much higher than the supply and by the time Iwould have a litter and need 40 pounds of neck to churn and make a pate out of for my pups the butcher would run out of them

I was getting anxiety attacks not being sure that I would have enough RMB for my puppies to eat so I decided I have had enough and didnt want to be anxious or worried about finding Raw food quantities for them and finally sold my fancy Italian made meat grinder, the upright freezer and moved on to good quality kibble (Fromm 4 star) and I have never looked back. 

Had I been able to meet my demand with the supply I most likely would of still been doing raw (Kymethy Schultz and Dr. Billinghurst whose books I still have.)

My dogs do however get raw knuckle bones and a few pieces here and there of beef chuck and definitely home cooked food. They are doing great


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

I now have another question that I hadn't thought of before.

I realize that Orijen is 40% protein, but according to dogfoodadvisor, NV raw is also 40% protein. And if you are following the 80/10/10 model, isn't that 80% protein? I know that kibble takes longer for the dog to process. Is that the difference?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

PrincessDollie:

I believe Choc.millie is better suited to respond to this question since she is currently doing raw.

From what I have read dogs digest kibble differently than they would raw meat or RMB's, and this can make the difference.
80% protein processed in kibble would be digested differently by a dog than if he were to digest RMB or offal/raw meat.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Princess Dollie said:


> I now have another question that I hadn't thought of before.
> 
> I realize that Orijen is 40% protein, but according to dogfoodadvisor, NV raw is also 40% protein. And if you are following the 80/10/10 model, isn't that 80% protein? I know that kibble takes longer for the dog to process. Is that the difference?


Yeah...it's really not a good idea to start comparing raw to kibble it will make your head spin. :alberteinstein:

Prey model raw - 80% of the diet will be muscle meat. That is *not* equivalent to 80% protein. A chicken quarter is maybe 25% protein or so. The rest is mostly bone and water. It can be looked up on the USDA database. But, really, you should just know that a raw diet is probably comparable to a high quality grain free kibble. Raw might actually have slightly less protein, but still comparable, IMO. (It gets confusing because kibble is dry and raw meat is full of water).

It's really not necessary to do this, but I once typed in a typical few day's worth of food into the database to see what average of protein I am feeding. It was at or slightly below that of a grain free kibble.

ETA: A chicken leg is 27%. Lamb heart is 22%. Beef kidney is 16%. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl Just for comparison.

Don't even start comparing % calories in protein. I accidentally did that once and thoroughly confused myself.....:scared:


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks, CM. I figured there was something different between kibble and raw that would not make it comparable. I thought about the bone in raw but forgot about the water. Quickly looking at NV website, they list their raw diets at 68% water.

I’m very fortunate, I have two fridge/freezer combos in my kitchen and I have one fridge/freezer combo in the Dollie/Corky room. I’ll have to do a little rearranging in my freezers and then I’ll be ready to take on Corky too.



ChocolateMillie said:


> Don't even start comparing % calories in protein. I accidentally did that once and thoroughly confused myself.....:scared:


I hear you. A little useless trivia that I know from my marathoning days is that, for a human being, it takes 4 calories to burn off a gram of either protein or carb. And, it takes 9 calories to burn off a gram of fat. It’s easier for me to think in context of units of energy.

So instead of making it all complicated, it’s just easier to realize that, for us humans, it is a good thing to have a diet that is low in fat and is a combination of protein and carbs. The total caloric intake should match your activity level (energy in…energy out). And the protein/carb ratio can be tweaked based on the type of exercise (if any) that you do. Pretty simple for us, huh!


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

whitepoodles, I'm glad your dogs are doing fantastic. Cole looks awesome in you recent picture of him.



whitepoodles said:


> ... and finally sold my fancy Italian made meat grinder....


Sigh, I'm a kitchen gadget junkie. I would love to have an Italian meat grinder....


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

PD:


LOL I sold the Italian meat grinder (1 horse power) for next to nothing. I should of known you then 

I wish I had more butchers in my area to meet all the demand but unfortunately I had to let Raw feeding slide because the demand was increasing and supply dwindeling.. sigh :-(


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> PD:
> 
> 
> LOL I sold the Italian meat grinder (1 horse power) for next to nothing. I should of known you then
> ...


I have a meat grinder! I was going to use it when I board the dogs at the kennel, to make my own sort of "premade" raw. 

I threw up the one time I tried to use it. Sweet smell of metal and raw meat..... Never again!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I have a meat grinder! I was going to use it when I board the dogs at the kennel, to make my own sort of "premade" raw.
> 
> *I threw up the one time I tried to use it. Sweet smell of metal and raw meat..... Never again!*





CM:

 I hear you, but you know when you have a litter of 9 pups and 4 dogs to feed you cant just buy the food ready made as it can get to be very expensive so I did go out and purchase a top meat grinder, I could easily put 7 chick. necks in the opening and it would grind 50 pounds of necks in a matter of 15 min. to pate paste.. Loved it, but too much work and too little supply, however I feel that in some situations raw feeding is the only way to go with dogs. Sadly I can not follow this route because of dwindling supply.

Are you doing Kymethy Schultz/Billinghurst method ? and do you give your dogs grain or just RMB, offal and ground veggies ?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> Are you doing Kymethy Schultz/Billinghurst method ? and do you give your dogs grain or just RMB, offal and ground veggies ?


I am feeding prey model raw to Millie and Henry. I do not include vegetables or grains in the balancing of my dogs' diet. Althiugh, some would call what i feed modified prey model because I do offer veggies off my plate for snacks and I give Millie a banana here and there My dogs don't eat any ground meat unless it is on sale or the only access I have to that variety of meat (ie - I get grassfed ground venison though my pet carnivore for approx. $3/lb.

They eat mostly large chunks of boneless muscle meat, a few large edible raw meaty bones per week and some chunks of liver and spleen or kidney. This equals the 80% muscle meat/10% bone and 10% organ of a prey model diet. 

Tiger eats Acana Pacifica, primal and NV pre-made raw as well as edible raw meaty bones. I would have him on PMR (prey model raw) too except it would make the time he spends with the handler more complicated. Well, I could easily do it and then send him away with premade raw. It would be quite pricey, though. So, instead, he will be sent to the handler eating 1 kibble meal and 1 premade raw meal daily. Unless I change my mind and decide to switch him to all raw an just spend a fortune on PMR so he can still eat all raw with the handler.......:alien2:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

CM:
You are doing well.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*Question?*

Hi CM- Ora knows all about my very picky eater Harley,( red stndard) who can go a day without eating anything if there's nothing 'good enough' on her bowl of dog food. So I have been cooking Ora's mix of beef and lentils etc, for her, which the other two dogs love it- but not Harley, not once she got bored with it, which was pretty darn quick.
I feed Wellness Core, and after reading the previous food threads on Acana Pacifica, I ordered a big bag from Amazon,hoping that maybe she'd like that fish based food better and then the feeding issues would be solved.It came yesterday..
Wrong- she sniffs it and walks away..the other dogs adore it. But they also adore fresh fruits and vegetables, or boiled eggs- she does not.She'll eat eggs if they are scrambled.She loves our salmon dinner, but won''t eat canned salmon.She'll eat all people food as well, but not the whole grain bread I bake. But Challah-Yes! 
Isn't she a little PITA? 
So here's what i have been doing for a few weeks now, and this is what she really likes:
She loves raw hamburger meat or raw chopped hearts on her dog food, and then will generally eat everything.Now I am worried( having read this on another thread) that i am doing the wrong thing by feeding fresh and kibble together, but I don't know what else to do to make feeding pleasant.I add about one flat TBLSspoon of fresh meat to their food.
What to do?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

papoodles said:


> Hi CM- Ora knows all about my very picky eater Harley,( red stndard) who can go a day without eating anything if there's nothing 'good enough' on her bowl of dog food. So I have been cooking Ora's mix of beef and lentils etc, for her, which the other two dogs love it- but not Harley, not once she got bored with it, which was pretty darn quick.
> I feed Wellness Core, and after reading the previous food threads on Acana Pacifica, I ordered a big bag from Amazon,hoping that maybe she'd like that fish based food better and then the feeding issues would be solved.It came yesterday..
> Wrong- she sniffs it and walks away..the other dogs adore it. But they also adore fresh fruits and vegetables, or boiled eggs- she does not.She'll eat eggs if they are scrambled.She loves our salmon dinner, but won''t eat canned salmon.She'll eat all people food as well, but not the whole grain bread I bake. But Challah-Yes!
> Isn't she a little PITA?
> ...


If it's not making her sick I don't see the problem.


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## Princess Dollie (Jan 15, 2011)

papoodles said:


> I add about one flat TBLSspoon of fresh meat to their food. What to do?


That's roughly what I do with Corky. Now, mind you, she's a 25 lb Corgi and is not picky AT ALL. But I feed her kibble along with a 1 oz venison or bison raw medallion. She thinks it's dessert.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

papoodles said:


> Hi CM- Ora knows all about my very picky eater Harley,( red stndard) who can go a day without eating anything if there's nothing 'good enough' on her bowl of dog food. So I have been cooking Ora's mix of beef and lentils etc, for her, which the other two dogs love it- but not Harley, not once she got bored with it, which was pretty darn quick.
> I feed Wellness Core, and after reading the previous food threads on Acana Pacifica, I ordered a big bag from Amazon,hoping that maybe she'd like that fish based food better and then the feeding issues would be solved.It came yesterday..
> Wrong- she sniffs it and walks away..the other dogs adore it. But they also adore fresh fruits and vegetables, or boiled eggs- she does not.She'll eat eggs if they are scrambled.She loves our salmon dinner, but won''t eat canned salmon.She'll eat all people food as well, but not the whole grain bread I bake. *But Challah-Yes! *Isn't she a little PITA?
> So here's what i have been doing for a few weeks now, and this is what she really likes:
> ...


Papoodles:

Now you are talking. My dogs LOVE Challah bread. Tons of eggs on the sweet side it is a wonderful Jewish bread and whenever my husband goes to the pantry to take it out, the dogs just line up sitting and waiting for the slices. They get each one slice per day and they devour it in seconds. I LOVE Challah bread but if I look at bread I gain weight so I refrain.

One of the best tasting breads.

My dogs also would go off their food periodically, especially in the summer when it is very hot or when I am too busy with pups and cant take them on the forest trail walks (fear of bringing back nasty stuff to unvaccinated pups) then they will go off their food and not want to eat.

Did you ever try TRIPE, there are cans called TRIPETTE can be purchased at quality pet food stores, they say that even the finnikiest dog will eat his kibble if u mix Tripette into their kibble.

Google TRIPETTE and see where it is available in N.Jersey.

Also Satin Balls are a great addition to dog food if you want to put weight on your dog. It works for me whenever I need it.

I also found from experience that the more you cater to a finniky dog the more you will find it hard to please him/her.

Put the food down and if the dog does not eat it take it away after 30 min. Trust me if you do this day in and day out , the dog will finally get the message and instead of having YOUR number he will start eating his food when the food is put down.

Dont free feed a finniky dog, you will cause him to be even more so.

I have had experience with both great eaters and finniky dogs, poodles by nature are very fussy when it comes to their food... At supper time I get 7 cow sad eyes staring at me and George directly into our plates. 

NO! they get their food with the cooked stuff and that is what they eat. They have a variety of food all the time within the same brand so it is not as if they get the same food which is boring, but I will not cater to them to the point that they will refuse everything I put down for them but the food on my plate .

A breeder friend of mine once told me they sense your frustration and worry and they have your number.. stop fussing and put the food down and take it away after 30 min. and guess what it worked.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you so much for all the suggestions..I feel better knowing that at least Harley won't be harmed due to my inability to make her 'toe the line'.It is ridiculous that I can manage a classroom but not a dog..oops.. I mean.. a poodle
Princess, if she ate like your corgi or my dachshund, I would have no stress- our dachshund lives to eat, but Harley just eats to live..That's the reality. My husband keeps pointing out to me that she just doesn't like dog food, so once I get that into my head, and then cooked just for her, including baking her fresh Challah every day, she would be most appreciative.I get it..
Ora- she loves challah with peanut butter!
Anyway, today I did as Ora suggested and picked up her dog food as soon as she walked away,( without taking a bite) I didn't even give her 5 minutes to make up her mind.Took it away and when I ate, I gave it back to her, she sniffed a few desultory sniffs, resigned herself, and ate half of it. Of course she ate all the meat, and all the cooked goodies off first...sigh.
Anyway, she doesn't look like she is starving and has unbounded energy, so I won't worry.It is just such a pain!
I will try to find some canned tripe for her- I remember eating it in Florence and it tasted like dead rubber, hope she'll like it more!


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Papoodle:

LOLOL your girl definitely has your number Ha !

She is playing on your sympathy and she has you right were she wants you, LOLOL.

I do have a girl like her, my wonderful Anessa, bless her sould she knows exactely where my heart strings are..  and she tries very hard to harp on them , its my weakest point.. but she does not always succeed.

Poodles are so smart and if you dont train them they will most definitely train you.

Your girl has you trained down packed.. LOL Time to put your foot down and introduce the rules


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Ora, I admit it- mea culpa....
You are of course, right! Sigh.. so I will try to put my foot down- but very softly


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=papoodles;176268]Ora, I admit it- mea culpa....
You are of course, right! Sigh.. so I will try to put my foot down- but very softly[/QUOTE]*


Papoodles:

LOL you are just like I am,, a worried mommy always trying to do the best for her kids.. but at times I get so frustrated with Anessa especially when I put the food down, all the other dogs eat their meal, and she sulks goes to the corner stares at teh others eating their food with gusto, then looks at me as if to say Is that all you are going to give me tonight (and every night 

When I dont pay attention to her or when I lift her bowl seeing she is not touching it, then she gets up and sniffs the other dogs' bowls and I say NO, you had your chance and she is not getting anything until the next time and boy does she ever wolf her food down the moment that ball comes out of the fridge and is on the ground.

YOu have to know LOL how to not allow your dog to play on your emotions.
I have learnt this with experiences I have had and still do at times with Anessa. the other dogs are just great... but Anessa is a spoiled brat


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## Dolce and Louis (Feb 23, 2011)

I also feed Fromm 4 star and my boys are doing great on it. We are very happy that we found it we give them tuna and salmon with the kibble.... When we first got Louis the breeder had all of her dogs on Blue Buffalo, we went to a pet store to get ready for him and the women kept on and on about how bad blue was and it scared me and she really pushed orjen so we bought it... well he had horrible cow pie poo and pee peed every 15 minuets so I took him to the vet and he told me to take him off orjen right away and reccomend science diet (like all vets do) so I was very fustrated and started looking and found Fromm and I am so glad I did.


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## Dolce and Louis (Feb 23, 2011)

papoodles

Dolce is also a funny eater the breeder free fed and Dolce was a little under weight when he came nothing to be alarmed over she just said to mix some wet with it so he would eat better.... well I do not free feed because I like to know how much they are taking in I also have to tether them because Louis inhales his food then wants to eat Dolce's who eats slow. So back to my point Dolce would not eat so I would pick up his food after an aloted amount of time if he did not eat he did not get anything until next time to eat they eat morning and evening so he started eating when the food was put down! they will not starve they will eat when they get hungry! Be strong!


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