# Looking for a puppy with intact tale and claws



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Deleting post, as I misunderstood the question.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

do you mean neutering (removal of reproductive organs) or are you referring to docking where the end of the tail is removed?


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## aweinrank (Oct 19, 2021)

Thank you. I think I used the wrong term. What I meant by 'intact'
is intact tails and claws. Is there a term that describes that?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Undocked


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

When your talking to breeders, don't mention the mutilation part - we get that you feel strongly about it. Otherwise, the breeder's just going to delete your text/email. 

"We're looking for a poodle with an undocked tail and dew claws"

It's a situation where "less is more".


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I agree with Basil’s dad. I am with you and would prefer a natural tail and dewclaws, but even I rolled my eyes at “for human entertainment”. For human aesthetic, yes. Entertainment? No. Nobody is gleefully clipping claws and tails, guaranteed. Since you’re in Washington, perhaps you could get a Canadian poodle since it’s my understanding that they don’t allow it?


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

It's likely to be a balancing act finding a breeder in your area that doesn't dock, but still produces quality dogs. Most breeders who don't dock are backyard breeders and a few select hobbyists. It's not always a matter of a breeder's preference, if they want to show their dogs they have to meet the local standard, and showing can be just as valuable a method of finding good candidates for buyers as sellers. Not to mention finding good breeding stock.

I also prefer poodles undocked and am not a fan of the practice, but often here in the US those who don't show don't put much thought into breeding dogs with good structure. This can lead to other health issues. I don't mean to dissuade you from looking for a good breeder who doesn't dock, they definitely exist, but you may have to go much further afield if you don't want to cut corners. It's in the dog's best interest to get every advantage from day one, and those that show (or do some other serious dog endeavor) are on average more engaged in the dog world and likely to have put in the research and effort.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Dogs shown in conformation in UKC (United Kennel Club) in the states can be shown natural - no docking of tail or removing dew claws. Some people show in UKC and AKC so they would be docking tails. I would start with UKC breeders looking for someone who does dog sports and all the required testing. People breeding parti-poodles for conformation can only show in UKC - so looking for a parti-poodle is another possible route to finding what you want.

Consider looking in Canada - many provinces ban docking of tails and removing dew claws.

These puppies exist but it will be more work for you to find one from a quality breeder and you probably will have to travel farther. 

No need to mention anything beyond requesting a docked tail and dew claw


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, Anna! Here’s an example of the wording to look for:

“All puppies in these litters will have their dew claws and tails left natural/undocked.”

That example is taken from a breeder of miniature poodles: Safranne Poodles, Specializing in Performance Miniature Poodles, Winona, MN

She is a performance breeder—breeding puppies for agility, dock diving, etc.—which may be where you’ll have the most success finding carefully bred puppies who also have natural tails. They may, however, tend towards having more drive than you’re interested in. So a good conversation with the breeder will be important, to communicate what you plan to do with your puppy and what type of temperament your lifestyle can best accommodate.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

"Undocked" or "Tail and dewclaws left natural" is the way I would phrase what you want.

I believe Cascadia in Oregon is a non-docking breeder. I don't have any personal experience with them, however.

Both my current undocked dogs came from breeders who normally dock. My older boy was already born when I heard about his litter. His breeder will normally leave a puppy with a natural tail if and only if you pay for the puppy in full in advance. This time the breeder had left every mismarked puppy in that litter undocked, as the breeder wasn't going to try to show any of them and some pet buyers had expressed interest in undocked tails. I got onto the waiting list, went out when the puppies were a few weeks old, and selected the one I wanted.

With the younger dog I reached out to the breeder before the puppies were even born. The breeder expressed some concern. I explained I knew she wouldn't be able to tell anything about the puppy's size, personality, or conformation when she needed to make the decision about which puppy to assign to me. I agreed to accept the risk that my puppy might so ugly than only a mother could love him, and I'd take him home anyhow.


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## CharlietheToy (Oct 20, 2021)

This is my first time to post, although I have been lurking for a while. I feel kind of stupid reading this thread, as I never even realized poodles are typically docked. We have a toy who just turned one earlier this month, and I don't think he has been docked, as he has a beautiful (to me!) tail that curls back over his spine. I'll have to check whether he still has his dew claws when I get home tonight. We live in Japan and acquired Charlie from a small breeder who also shows. Docking seems to be permitted in Japan, so I am not sure why Charlie was not. He does have a minor underbite that would keep him out of the show ring, so maybe that's it.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

CharlietheToy said:


> This is my first time to post, although I have been lurking for a while. I feel kind of stupid reading this thread, as I never even realized poodles are typically docked. We have a toy who just turned one earlier this month, and I don't think he has been docked, as he has a beautiful (to me!) tail that curls back over his spine. I'll have to check whether he still has his dew claws when I get home tonight. We live in Japan and acquired Charlie from a small breeder who also shows. Docking seems to be permitted in Japan, so I am not sure why Charlie was not. He does have a minor underbite that would keep him out of the show ring, so maybe that's it.


Although its allowed maybe it isnt common? Do you know if the poodles in the ring are docked?


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## CharlietheToy (Oct 20, 2021)

I


curlflooffan said:


> Although its allowed maybe it isnt common? Do you know if the poodles in the ring are docked?


I looked and it appears they are docked, including the poodles shown by Charlie's breeder. I checked again and confirmed that Charlie also has his dew claws.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

CharlietheToy said:


> I
> 
> I looked and it appears they are docked, including the poodles shown by Charlie's breeder. I checked again and confirmed that Charlie also has his dew claws.


How strange then that yours is not?


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## calamityangie (Jun 23, 2021)

I think the solution here is to find a breeder you really like and talk with them / build a relationship with them far in advance of the litter being born from which you would like to purchase a dog. Many reputable breeders will work with you and leave a tail undocked and dew claws intact if that is something you strongly prefer for a companion dog. As others have noted, you may have to pay in full for the puppy in advance and may be assigned your dog from the litter much earlier in the process than you would otherwise be, but I don't think this is an unheard of request these days and there are probably good breeders willing to work with you. One thing I will say is that I would probably try to pick one of these things you are more willing to compromise on. For instance, the breeder of my current pup was only docking tails for show prospect dogs because it is required by the breed standard for showing a dog in the US, all the other dogs in the litter were left natural. However, all the dewclaws were removed from all the puppies because that is something which typically has to happen very early in their life to be a (sort of) humane process. Good luck in your search!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

It’s illegal to dock and remove dewclaws in Canada, if you want to look our way.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

calamityangie said:


> Many reputable breeders will work with you and leave a tail undocked and dew claws intact if that is something you strongly prefer for a companion dog. As others have noted, you may have to pay in full for the puppy in advance and may be assigned your dog from the litter much earlier in the process than you would otherwise be, b


The docking, and I think the dew claw removal is usually done by 3 days old. Although more breeders are slowly considering this issue, they will be hard pressed to pick which puppy at 3 days old, even paid in full, to dock, when they won't know temperament for weeks, and they won't know their best show potential pups until then or even longer.

Finding a breeder who's moving to leaving entire litters undocked will be a better bet, I think.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

aweinrank said:


> Hi
> We are in search of a standard poodle puppy and really would like one that's intact.
> Most posts I have come across have puppies that are altered and we don't want to support animal mutilation for human entertainment.
> Any leads would be appreciated. We are in Washington state.
> ...


There is a breeder in NY that will give you what you seek. She calls it "Doodle my Poodle." Rachel Sann is her name. (315) 790 - 7472. Hillside Standard Poodles, Rome, NY. I would think there are others but you would you have to be on a wait list for a pup with minimum deposit as decision should be before pups are born. Docking and dew claw removals are done in first couple days following birth.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> There is a breeder in NY that will give you what you seek. She calls it "Doodle my Poodle." Rachel Sann is her name. (315) 790 - 7472. Hillside Standard Poodles, Rome, NY. I would think there are others but you would you have to be on a wait list for a pup with minimum deposit as decision should be before pups are born. Docking and dew claw removals are done in first couple days following birth.


I see nothing about health testing or what her goals are for her breeding program. Do you have any info about either?


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Dechi said:


> It’s illegal to dock and remove dewclaws in Canada, if you want to look our way.


Is it? Most poodles I see and hear of in Ontario are docked. Maybe it's only illegal in certain provinces? I understand that CKC doesn't require it and I know of a few show poodles that are undocked but most still are.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Oonapup said:


> Is it? Most poodles I see and hear of in Ontario are docked. Maybe it's only illegal in certain provinces? I understand that CKC doesn't require it and I know of a few show poodles that are undocked but most still are.


A brief Google indicates it is province by province.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> deposit





Rose n Poos said:


> I see nothing about health testing or what her goals are for her breeding program. Do you have any info about either?


I have spoken with her on phone. Not all breeders keep encyclopedia type websites. 🤣 The dogs are their priority. She does a lot of testing. DNA. She is very knowledgeable. It took her a couple days to get back to me but she did. I spoke over an hour with her. I was inquiring about possibly using one of her males later if I decide to breed my girl.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> There is a breeder in NY that will give you what you seek. She calls it "Doodle my Poodle." Rachel Sann is her name. (315) 790 - 7472. Hillside Standard Poodles, Rome, NY. I would think there are others but you would you have to be on a wait list for a pup with minimum deposit as decision should be before pups are born. Docking and dew claw removals are done in first couple days following birth.


It sounds like she picks one male and one female puppy to be left natural, and you have to commit upfront to her selection.

This is done prior to dewclaw removal, before temperament can be assessed, which she acknowledges on her website:

_“Lately I have been getting asked if they can buy a puppy with a natural tail, and it is a hard order to fill, because the process is done between days 3-5 and you know nothing about the puppy at that time.”_









Doodle My Poodle


Poodles with the Doodle look



www.standardpoodlesforsale.com





What I don’t see is how her program solves that problem. What am I missing?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Rose n Poos said:


> I see nothing about health testing or what her goals are for her breeding program. Do you have any info about either?


I saw several poodles with Hillside in the registered name on ofa.org, but the list stops at 2014. Either they have stopped posting tests to OFA or else they are using a different kennel name there. According to the web site they normally dock, so getting a puppy there really isn't much different from asking any other breeder to leave a puppy undocked. The breeder won't be able to do the 7 week temperament assessment that, say, Wool N Wind did when they recommended Elroy for 94Magna_Tom. Someone would be taking the same risk I did with my boys that the puppy might not be the best fit. Given the lack of OFA results and lack of screening options, I think it would make more sense for the OP to exhaust the west coast options before going to the hassle of shipping a dog from the east coast.


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I saw several poodles with Hillside in the registered name on ofa.org, but the list stops at 2014. Either they have stopped posting tests to OFA or else they are using a different kennel name there. According to the web site they normally dock, so getting a puppy there really isn't much different from asking any other breeder to leave a puppy undocked. The breeder won't be able to do the 7 week temperament assessment that, say, Wool N Wind did when they recommended Elroy for 94Magna_Tom. Someone would be taking the same risk I did with my boys that the puppy might not be the best fit. Given the lack of OFA results and lack of screening options, I think it would make more sense for the OP to exhaust the west coast options before going to the hassle of shipping a dog from the east coast.


I replied to this thread on the basis of providing a known breeder who is willing to not alter. That's all. For info. Was just a starting point. We all don't have encyclopedia's of knowledge about all things Poodle yet. Like what is OP? Grammatically, first time being used in this thread, should be typed out/defined, with (OP) following so we all know what you're saying. I don't like guessing what is meant. I have a brain issue. We only try to help and make people feel welcome asking any kind of questions, right? Sometimes this site comes across snooty. Educate, don't humiliate. Only my $.02.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

cowpony said:


> I saw several poodles with Hillside in the registered name on ofa.org, but the list stops at 2014. Either they have stopped posting tests to OFA or else they are using a different kennel name there. According to the web site they normally dock, so getting a puppy there really isn't much different from asking any other breeder to leave a puppy undocked. The breeder won't be able to do the 7 week temperament assessment that, say, Wool N Wind did when they recommended Elroy for 94Magna_Tom. Someone would be taking the same risk I did with my boys that the puppy might not be the best fit. Given the lack of OFA results and lack of screening options, I think it would make more sense for the OP to exhaust the west coast options before going to the hassle of shipping a dog from the east coast.


I loved Tom's descriptions of the process week by week before Elroy and he were matched. What a perfect match btw. 
We are going through the same process for Matteo fortunately. It is so important that the match is right. Here in Western Europe docking is prohibited so we are accustomed to seeing a poodle with a natural tail. I love it! I would however take slight offence to the term'doodle your poodle'. Just a pure undocked poodle.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> I replied to this thread on the basis of providing a known breeder who is willing to not alter. That's all. For info. Was just a starting point. We all don't have encyclopedia's of knowledge about all things Poodle yet. Like what is OP? Grammatically, first time being used in this thread, should be typed out/defined, with (OP) following so we all know what you're saying. I don't like guessing what is meant. I have a brain issue. We only try to help and make people feel welcome asking any kind of questions, right? Sometimes this site comes across snooty. Educate, don't humiliate. Only my $.02.


OP means Original Poster/Original Post (it's just forum lingo not poodle specific)
I don't think there's any intention to humiliate, members just have a glut of information so they're adding context and advice.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> I have spoken with her on phone. Not all breeders keep encyclopedia type websites. 🤣 The dogs are their priority. She does a lot of testing. DNA. She is very knowledgeable. It took her a couple days to get back to me but she did. I spoke over an hour with her. I was inquiring about possibly using one of her males later if I decide to breed my girl.


It is true that breeder websites vary greatly. What I look for at a minimum, whether for myself or to recommend, is a breeder doing the health testing recommended by the official poodle breed club, since 1930something, the Poodle Club of Americe (PCA).


For standard poodles that testing is:

*POODLE, STANDARD*
AKC Non-Sporting Group; UKC Companion Dog Group; TKC Utility Group

OFA-CHIC Health Testing Requirements

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.



*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚

Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.

CHIC numbers generate automatically within 1 to 2 weeks after all the required test results have been registered with the OFA.

For dogs residing outside the US or Canada, owners may submit their country's equivalent health screening results for listing on the OFA website. These requests are reviewed on a case by case basis and fees apply. Once these results have been recorded with the OFA, owners may request CHIC numbers if they've met all the CHIC requirements through regular registrations or international equivalents. These requests are handled on a case by case basis.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
*CHIC Program Goals*

To work with parent clubs in the identification of health issues for which a central information system should be established.
To establish and maintain a central health information system in a manner that will support research into canine disease and provide health information to owners and breeders.
To establish scientifically valid diagnostic criteria for the acceptance of information into the database.
To base the availability of information on individually identified dogs at the consent of the owner.

None of the above is DNA testing. DNA testing is very helpful but is only a part of the picture. The phenotype testing for standards is recommended because all are known issues for standards, not common but possible. The Midcentury Bottleneck has had a major effect on health issues with standards so I look for breeders that are carefully and thoughtfully trying to breed away from those issues, not adding in more in the process, and maintaining the poodle blueprint in structure, soundness, and temperament.

Breeders who have an online presence and are doing those things usually have at least some of that info proudly noted there.

There is also a breeder Code of Ethics which is no more than best practices. I look for breeders who follow that code as closely as possible, whether they are PCA members or not.

As a Breeder, I
• Develop my breeding program based upon the breed standard
• Plan each breeding selectively toward the goal on improvement of the Poodle, not purely for financial gain
• Keep accurate records as per AKC rules and regulations
• Test all breeding stock , as appropriate, for each variety’s genetic and acquired disorders
• Remain abreast of new genetic testing available and readily participates in current genetic studies
• Never intentionally allow a Poodle to be bred to any other breed
• Screen prospective buyers or individuals with whom a dog is placed
• Provide a written contract for all interactions involving the breeding, selling, co-owning, placing and rehoming of my
stock
• Sell puppies with individual records to include
o A Bill of Sale stating the conditions (terms) on which the sale was made
o A Pedigree of at least 3 generations
o An up-to-date health record
o proof of genetic/acquired condition testing
o a reasonable time frame for a return
o Never release a puppy before 8 weeks
o Sell non-breeding quality puppies with limited registration
o Require all non-breeding quality puppies sold to be neutered/spayed
• Assume responsibility for the well-being of all dogs sold including taking back adults in emergency situations and finding
homes for rescues that have been identified from my breeding when possible


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hi @dlardin - I’ve removed your post because it contained personal contact information that could get spammed. If this is a breeder you recommend, can you provide their kennel name and a link to their website?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Oonapup said:


> Is it? Most poodles I see and hear of in Ontario are docked. Maybe it's only illegal in certain provinces? I understand that CKC doesn't require it and I know of a few show poodles that are undocked but most still are.


Oh, you might be right. It’s illegal for sure in Quebec.


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## Thomazine (Aug 9, 2020)

We drove six hours to Ohio to find a non-docking breeder who proves her dogs (agility titles, trick and rally, FastCat, UKC champions). Look at the Shyre Poodles group (Ghibli is having a fall litter). They’re working with the BetterBred program, and their dogs are all OFA-tested. It is possible to find good small breeders in the US who don’t dock dewclaws or tails, but you may just have to drive to reach them.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

@PeggyTheParti @cowpony


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