# Oversized mini/small standard



## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

So... what's the deal with these? I have seen people mention them on the forums. Is it sort of a no no like people breeding for the very smallest maltese or yorkie they possibly can?

Do reputable breeders breed oversized minis and small standards? I'm new to poodles and curious. I'm interested in Minis but kind of interested in something that runs more like 20lb at adult. I'm not interested enough to search one out to the ends of the earth though 

We aren't currently looking to add another as we have three and it's a handful currently but I am in love with these poodles and wanting to learn more.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

When I started looking for a poodle, I also wanted an oversized mini. In Europe they have that in between size and there it is called moyen (French) or klein (German). In the US miniatures are up to 15" at the shoulder, and poodles taller than that from mini parents are called oversized minis. If a breeder shows his dogs, he does not breed for oversized minis. They just happen.

Small standard breeders are around, but they are not breeding standards down to 20 lbs. Plus small standard parents can still produce puppies which are not small.

There are breeders around who are breeding standards to miniatures to create that 20-30 lb poodle. They are using the name "moyen" even though they are not true moyens from Europe. Some of these "moyen" breeders do genetic testing and may still show some of their minatures. Others are not so responsible and are just in it for the money.

I finally decided to get an in size miniature and chose the best breeder I could. Dakota is 15" tall and about 15.5 lbs.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

I went through a similar search to MiniPoo and came to the same conclusion. For me the order of priorities became 1. Finding a good breeder, 2. Finding the right puppy, and then 3. Size and color nuances.

BUT I got very lucky and my puppy who was expected to be an in-size, 13" tall mini grew to an oversize 15.5-16" tall oversize mini/small standard. She is still very lanky at a year old and only 12-13 lbs. I couldn't have 'ordered' a more perfect size, but I would have loved Ari the same no matter how tall she ended up!


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I have heard it said that show breeders of minis want to produce dogs near the top of their height class to be some what more impressive in the ring. I'm not sure this is true, but if it is, then a few pups in any given litter may go over sized. I've owned four minis in my life. Two were over-sized males. They were nice squarely built poodles and weighed a little under twenty pounds. An over-sized mini is only a problem, if you want a show dog.


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## service_spoo (Mar 14, 2015)

Small standards have been a trend lately, with breeders capitalizing on the Moyen/Klein size that's recognized in Europe. But many breeders are producing moyen sized poodles by breeding minis to standards, instead of importing well bred moyens from outside the US, which can produce an oddly proportioned dog. I think there are lots of people who want the sturdiness of a standard, but don't want a really big one, so I see the demand. Penny is a "small" standard, but is not undersized; she's maybe 18 or 19 inches tall and 30 pounds. Still very much in size, but everyone is always surprised when I tell them she's a purebred spoo.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

There is such a market for the 20-30 lb poodle in the US, I wish more breeders would import moyen/klein dogs from Europe and start breeding them here. Perhaps the breeders should call them klein poodles instead of the overused "moyen" term that mini/standard poodle breeders are already using here.

As far as I know, the only real klein poodle breeder in the US is Karbit in Arizona.

An oversized mini and small standard are the exception rather than the rule for good breeders. It would just be good to have more genuine klein poodles in the US where the 18+ lb size is the expected size of the poodle.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

That is exactly the size I prefer. Right now I have an OT at 14" but 10 pounds, and my PWD is 20" and 48 pounds. Ones too small and ones a bit too big. 

Maybe next dog, but not for years


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

So is it not really taboo for breeders to cross the standard with the mini? I guess does it depend on if they are doing the health testing and all that? 

DH and I talked last night, and we both think a mini would be our next dog-but that is years from now. I am TOTALLY in love with Ari btw. 

We love our maltese but they are so tiny and delicate. My husband likes to disc golf and we like to get out on the trails and it's not always ideal for a tiny dog. 

Addison is wonderful and I may always want to have a standard too, but she is huge compared to what we are used to.  We nicknamed her Moose because she's so tall and big (to us). We still love her though, she is amazing.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

shell said:


> So is it not really taboo for breeders to cross the standard with the mini? I guess does it depend on if they are doing the health testing and all that?


Is it taboo to cross a mini with a standard? The answer depends on who you talk to. Most serious breeders would say YES, it is totally wrong, because you will get short legged dogs with big heads and teeth problems. And they have good reason to say that.

But if you talk to other people (say, people looking for that 18-30 lb poodle), they might say, I do not care if the breeder uses a small standard to increase the size of the miniatures, and she is breeding that small standard to a large miniature. So the 2 dogs are similar in size (less chance of teeth problems). Then if she does genetic testing, that makes the puppies more likely to be healthy and not have an odd confirmation.

So, yes, it is generally taboo to mix minis with standard. Do not think that it isn't. 

I almost got a puppy from that mixed poodle breeding, but the puppy was all white and I wanted a dark dog. So I continued looking and finally decided that the bigger size was not as important as I originally thought. 

If I were looking for another poodle, I might look at miniatures who have a standard poodle in their pedigree, but I would also consider in-size miniatures again. Or I might spend the time waiting for a klein poodle from Karbit in Arizona.

So you have to decide what is important to you. Just make sure the breeder is doing everything possible to make sure his puppies are healthy.

ETA: Karbit is in Nevada, not Arizona. Thanks Lori G!
\\http://karbitpoodles.com/home.html


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

For accuracy's sake, Karbit is in Nevada. Her Kleins are beautiful.


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## SusanLamb (Jan 14, 2015)

To Service Spoo: your Penny is beautiful! She looks like what I dream of. Can you tell me her breeder's name? Are they in Washington?


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

You'll probably have better luck contacting her by private message. She may not see this post.


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## Zialady62 (Dec 22, 2016)

I too have a small standard. She is about 20 inches and she weighs 36 pounds. We consider her the "perfect" size. She is sturdy yet small enough to easily go most places with us. When we take her in shops and stores she is small enough to easily navigate narrow spaces....


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## ndspencer1104 (Jun 28, 2021)

Zialady62 said:


> I too have a small standard. She is about 20 inches and she weighs 36 pounds. We consider her the "perfect" size. She is sturdy yet small enough to easily go most places with us. When we take her in shops and stores she is small enough to easily navigate narrow spaces....


Hi - Your poodle is exactly the size I have been searching for . . . please could you point me in the breeder's direction?
I am not in a hurry, and have been researching, looking, and trying to find this size for a couple if years. If it's blue - done deal although color isn't everything.

Thanks to anyone who might point me in the right direction. Karbit Poodles has moved to Texas and may have something in 6-9 months.


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## Brian R (May 25, 2021)

This type of oversized miniature poodle/toy is sort of a problem not only for show dogs but dogs that compete in other arenas where size and strength are a factor. For example in 2019 we were competing in NADD and Jade was in first place for breed (miniature poodle measuring 14.5 inches at withers). All of a sudden another "miniature" poodle (AKC registered) measuring 16" at the withers shows up in first place. After a lot of back and forth with NADD, they finally placed the, oversized miniature poodle, in the standard poodle category even though it was AKC registered as a miniature poodle since it did not comply with the AKC standard. If this was allowed, breeders would be developing giant toys and miniatures to compete in sporting events where size and strength is a factor.


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## ndspencer1104 (Jun 28, 2021)

I understand your perspective; sports may need to adhere to AKC regs and standards for each "size" in competition. My goal is to have a smaller Standard poodle in my car, to lift in case of an emergency, and yet big enough to "play" with my 23" poodle. Technically a 20-23" poodle is a standard size. Dock diving is one sport I've never seen but would like to.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, @ndspencer1104! I think you’re on the right track with Karbit. Personally, I would _love_ an 18” poodle. So rare in the United States and yet such a versatile size.


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## ndspencer1104 (Jun 28, 2021)

Thanks @PeggyTheParti, I may have found a future litter that is exactly what I am after. Not quite an 18" Standard, but more on the 21-22" side but very refined at 30-35 lbs. On a walk one day, I encountered a Standard Poodle that was 24 lbs - the "runt" of the litter as all others were average size. Must've had miniature poodle genes somewhere?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh wow. That’s tiny! Reminds me of the mini doodles I see around here.

Peggy is 23.5” and 45 lbs. Everyone is shocked by her weight. She looks a _lot_ bigger than she is. It’s the legs!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. Can’t wait to hear more about your future puppy! Exciting!


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