# Sable x Red Breeding Question



## lex4423 (11 mo ago)

Hello,

I have a female standard poodle OFA tested and I have been on the hunt for a suitable stud, I found one with the physical conformation/ health I am looking for but he is Red, his parents were red and black.
I am not solely breeding for color but there are so many breeders that produce black puppies in my area and I am trying to avoid having all black or mostly black puppies (I’d be fine with the possibility of a percentage being black)

I am attaching my dogs color genetics results, the male has not been color tested. Any help or guidance on the colors would be appreciated, I know it won’t be 100% since the studs colors aren’t fully known.

thanks so much!


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## Oakley’s Human (10 mo ago)

It will depend on several factors. Having ky/ky, like your girl does, allows the agouti locus (sable, phantom, or recessive black) to be expressed as long as the dog isn’t red. A dog that is Kb/ky or Kb/Kb will be solid. Your girl is Bb so, depending on the studs genetics, has the potential to produce brown (bb). So, if the stud is Kb/—, you’d expect 50% red and 50% black. Or, if the stud is Bb, you’d expect the non-red half to be 75% black and 25% brown.

If he’s ky/ky, you’d expect the same thing but, instead of black/brown, the agouti pattern will be expressed. Agouti pattern includes sable, phantom and recessive black. Here’s the traits in order of dominance: traditional sable (ay) > wolf sable (aw) > phantom (at) > (a). I won’t go through all the options unless you want me too, but I’ll do one example. If the stud is at/at, you would expect the non-red half to be 50% wolf sable (aw) and 50% phantom (at). The B locus could also affect this if the stud carried brown. Remember the agouti locus is only expressed if the stud is ky/ky.

As you can see, there’s several options depending on the studs genetics. If you know what quite a few of the dogs in the stud’s line look like, we could make an educated guess at his genetics.

Let me know if you have any questions!


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## Oakley’s Human (10 mo ago)

I missed one on the K locus. If the stud is KB/ky, you’d expect the non-red half to be 50% black/brown and 50% agouti patterned.


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## lex4423 (11 mo ago)

Oakley’s Human said:


> It will depend on several factors. Having ky/ky, like your girl does, allows the agouti locus (sable, phantom, or recessive black) to be expressed as long as the dog isn’t red. A dog that is Kb/ky or Kb/Kb will be solid. Your girl is Bb so, depending on the studs genetics, has the potential to produce brown (bb). So, if the stud is Kb/—, you’d expect 50% red and 50% black. Or, if the stud is Bb, you’d expect the non-red half to be 75% black and 25% brown.
> 
> If he’s ky/ky, you’d expect the same thing but, instead of black/brown, the agouti pattern will be expressed. Agouti pattern includes sable, phantom and recessive black. Here’s the traits in order of dominance: traditional sable (ay) > wolf sable (aw) > phantom (at) > (a). I won’t go through all the options unless you want me too, but I’ll do one example. If the stud is at/at, you would expect the non-red half to be 50% wolf sable (aw) and 50% phantom (at). The B locus could also affect this if the stud carried brown. Remember the agouti locus is only expressed if the stud is ky/ky.
> 
> ...


Thank you this was super helpful! Some other resources I saw had mixed info on the K locus for red, and was showing all red as ky ky, it is definitely good to know that the K locus can have a dominant even in red, I know the studs mother was KB KB so he would definitely carry a dominant copy. This is very helpful, I am considering breeding with a phantom to allow the A locus to be expressed in all the puppies. I am concerned a lot of the puppies from this breeding would be black.
Thanks!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

It's the E locus that determines the red (red/apricot/cream) color. Red is recessive, so that stud would be ee. 
Your girl is Ee so she carries for red.
This means you have 50% chance of pups in the red spectrum and 50% "other colored".

Without DNA testing on the stud, there is no way to know what the "colored" half of the pups could be. Red (ee) blocks the expression (ie what you see) of every other gene except the B locus (brown). 
What color are this stud's points (nose and eye rims)? If they are brown, then the stud is bb and you would have 50% chance of brown points in the pups. This would mean that of the colored pups, half could be brown (25% of all pups) and the remaining quarter would have black points but pattern is still unknown.
If the stud's points are black, you have minimum 75% chance of pups with black points. The other 25% is unknown, depending on if the stud is Bb like your girl or BB.

Now, back to pattern- referring to the K locus. Keep in mind that the pattern will "overlay" on top of black or brown.
You said that the stud's dam was KbKb, which means he has at least one copy of it. This means that at least 50% of the "colored" pups (quarter of total) will be solid (either black or brown). The other quarter could be anything from brindle, to phantom, to sable, or solid.

So:
Half the pups of this pairing would be variations on apricot.
A quarter of the pups would be solid black or brown.
A quarter are unknown (solid or pattern).


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## lex4423 (11 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> It's the E locus that determines the red (red/apricot/cream) color. Red is recessive, so that stud would be ee.
> Your girl is Ee so she carries for red.
> This means you have 50% chance of pups in the red spectrum and 50% "other colored".
> 
> ...


The points are black, both his parents had black points as well, he is “cleared through parentage” so that is why I have some of his genetics I would love if he was color tested as well. It is good to hear that there is a good chance 50% will be on the red spectrum.

Side Note: I found a phantom stud at/at so half would be phantom half would be agouti, also excellent OFA results, in your personal opinion which color would you choose (assuming health in all would be the same) there are not any phantom breeders in my locality.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Do you know the color testing on the dad? Might provide a bit of insight.

If the two males were identical other than color? That's a tough one. Personally I adore the phantom coloring, but in my area the apricots are very popular. It would depend on whether I was breeding for myself or if I had a wait list with preferred colors. 
In real life, given equal health testing results and assuming both would compliment the female's qualities and drawbacks, I would probably pick based on temperament.

Of course, probabilities are one thing and reality is another. I'll give you an interesting case study of a dog I know about.
Black poodle, both parents were black. Like your girl, carries apricot Ee as well as brown Bb. Also carries pattern KbKy, pattern is phantom AtAt. 
Bred with two different cream/apricots, no DNA testing on them, but both have black points.
First litter, 4 apricots and two phantoms. The apricots are close to the expected probability, but funny enough there were no solid blacks.
Second litter, 4 pups in a range of shades from cream to apricot, 2 solid black, 2 phantom, 1 sable. Not far off the expected.
Both apricots must have carried phantom (or I suppose recessive black but that is really rare), and the second one must have been AyAt.
Anyway, I find this stuff fascinating lol.


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## lex4423 (11 mo ago)

I wish I had color testing on the red, the phantom is at/at, he also carry’s for brown. I personally love phantoms but don’t intend on keeping a puppy from the first litter. I agree the red/apricots are super popular here as well so may be a safe bet. It definitely is fascinating I have never spent more time on punnet squares and had so much fun. Both at least have the physical traits I am looking for, I guess going off of temperament will be a safe bet, this is more of a passion project for me so not looking to make money based off of “fancy” colors, but I still want to make sure the pups find timely homes. On a litter I intend to keep from I would definitely want a phantom.


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## Oakley’s Human (10 mo ago)

I know a lot of people have negative opinions about choosing a stud based on color, but I think it’s also important to produce dogs that you know will be able to find good homes. And, unfortunately, most buyers put a lot of emphasis on color. Obviously, you shouldn’t use a stud who has health, structure, or temperament issues, but assuming both studs are good in those areas I would choose the phantom one. How old is the phantom stud? What color are his points and are they still clear or are they faded?

I have a doodle (I know. The humanity! 😁) so I only know about poodles through the research I’ve done related to her, but I don’t think wolf sable is very common. Do you have a picture you could post? Mine is a parti sable and looked different than most sables I saw online so I wondered if maybe she’d come back as aw, but she’s ay. This is from my experience with doodles so take it with a grain of salt— I don’t see people looking for sables like I do for phantoms, but I get an unbelievable amount of attention when I take my girl places. It makes me wonder if a lot of people like sable but aren’t as aware of it or maybe they have trouble with how they look so different as puppies.

Anyway, sorry for the novel and good luck!


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## Oakley’s Human (10 mo ago)

One more thing— Do you know what the phantom stud is on the E locus? If he is Ee then you’d expect to have 25% red and since both he and your girl carry a b, you may end up with a red that has brown points. I know a lot of serious poodle people only want red with black points, so you’d have to decide how you feel about that. You could also end up with some brown based phantoms which would be fun. It’ll definitely be a colorful litter if you use that one! When are you planning on breeding?


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