# Thiaminase and feeding fish



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

All about pets and pet nutrition: Raw Feeding: The case for and against raw fish and specifically, what about sardines?

I have been feeding fresh, whole sardines (from Here Today, Gone Tomorrow supplier) alternating with fresh, whole mackerel from an Asian market locally. I have been feeding twice weekly. 

Then I started reading about thiaminase, an enzyme in many species of fish. This enzyme breaks apart vitamin B-1 and renders it unusable. If a human or animal has a diet made up mostly of raw fish (cooking destroys it) it can result in serious vitamin B deficiency which can lead to unbelievably horrendous conditions and death. It's very scary.

So, I am trying to figure out (because I know people feed fish and wild dogs and wolves probably consume fish) how much to give? Do you think twice a week is okay? Or should it be only once a week. I am not sure, but I think I read somewhere that it can stay around in the gut for a little while so therefore, it may prevent absorption of vitamin B, not only at the time of the meal, but maybe even later. This is very freaky. 

Cooking destroys it but then it also would destroy the benefits of raw and the bones might become too hard also.

Has anyone heard of this? What do you think? A vitamin B deficiency could take a long time (I think) to show up. I have yet to study this situation more.

Here's another article, focusing on cats, but still useful. Cats are more at risk: Thiamine in a Raw Meat Diet - Feline Nutrition

There are lists that show some of the species that have the enzyme and those that don't. Of course, the lists aren't all inclusive. Since I started writing this thread...I've bopped around the net looking at things and I am gathering that once or twice (maybe once is better) a week for fish is okay. And feeding foods high in thiamine is a good idea. Well, when feeding a raw diet with lots of variety, that just happens. 

So what do you do about this?


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thank you Poodlebeguiled, this is very timely. My husband loves to buy fish and seafood at our Asian markets and specifically asked about raw sardines. He will be happy to get the green light to buy some. He bought some kind of bone, the size of a tree stump from the Asian market that I refused to give to Buck, so this will salve his ego. I like to encourage his help grocery shopping even if what occurs to him that we need is often bizarre or hilarious.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes, raw fish are an excellent source of iodine, omega 3's and 6's, loads of various vitamins, including thiamine (vit B1)...not to be confused with thiaminase, the enzyme which destroys the vitamin, thiamine. Of course, cooking destroys the enzyme. But who wants to feed cooked food when raw is way more full of nutrients? 

I shop at those Asian markets too. But I got my sardines through Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow. 

That's a great and generous idea you have there for making your husband feel better. lol. I had to chuckle. 

Are you feeding a raw diet? I have to tell you what I found at the Asian market a while ago. Pork uterus. Hmmm...yummy. It is very bright red, must be full of blood. And it has like little ball things that are all attached with some space in between. It was loads of fun cutting up. The dogs love it. It wasn't expensive either. Those kinds of gross things are relatively cheap. Then I went to the Safeway and found some grass fed, organic, Angus beef that was to expire in a day or two. Snatched several pkg up of that for half off, came home, cut it all up and put into freezer bags. As I start running out of things, I start watching for good deals. lol.

Fish are great, but not too many.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

I buy all kinds off odd raw things at the Asian Markets. Chicken feet, turkey necks ... only raw bones don't cook them. Cooking makes them brittle and they can splinter.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Mine don't like raw fish - I have tried several times, but it is either left, or regurgitated. Sardines or herrings lightly sauteed in butter are quite different, of course, and canned sardines are a favourite. I don't think you need to worry about feeding too much if it is only one or two meals a week - and a few sardines, even canned ones, contain enough fish oil for a toy dog for a week. I stopped feeding white fish altogether because of the unbelievably smelly flatulence it caused in my dogs - it was eye wateringly horrible!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

West, of course cooked bones can cause great harm. I'm now, you'll be happy to hear, am a seasoned, old timer with feeding a balanced raw food diet. LOL. I'm joking because you may not have seen my earlier posts where I was freaking out most every day on whether or not I was doing things right. (I've always known that cooked bones are no good) Then finally, I got pretty comfortable. It's only been since mid Dec I think that I started this. But I read a ton and now I've come across this fish thing. So, I'm freaking out again. But soon, I think will settle in with a comfortable choice. Those Asian markets are great. The duck or chicken feet area real hit around my house as well. And such a good size to make about 10% of the meal. Then I throw in some hunks of some kind of meat plus tripe and their organ meat 10%. And they're good to go. 

Fjm, that flatulence sounds terrible. I guess it didn't agree with yours. I don't notice anything like that and they love their fish. lol. They have a little difficulty getting into them, as the skin is very tough. So, I've taken to splitting the fish down the middle and tearing it apart a little so they can scrape out the meat. I give them about 1/2 - 2/3 a sardine (most of these are pretty big) for the meal. They're now on 1 meal a day. That is good that your like the canned ones at least. I think fish are a good thing if not over done I guess.

Here are the sardines when they're fresh...pretty good size. I just cut them into a couple inch hunks, split them apart from the belly and give them to the dogs. I don't remove any part.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thinking about it, there is one raw fish all the animals love - salmon. I get a ground mix of chicken and salmon which they know as "fishy chicken", and it is very popular!


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