# Whats more important?



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

For me, it would be a very easy decision: hold onto the sweet groomer with the small shop. I chose Maizie's groomer based on her sweet, patient, gentle personality and the icing on the cake is that she does amazing work. But my dog's happiness is always #1, by a mile!!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree, go with the inexperienced one. She will learn and it is all about the dog IMHO. I have worked at groom shops like the one you are used to. The groomers were so talented. But the shop was high volume. We had 6 groomers and usually 4 bathers. It was nuts in there! If the new groomer makes a mistake, it will grow back. But for your dogs comfort, it is so worth it to maybe not look as perfect. I'm sure your pup will not know the difference in his appearance but will thank you for the much more pleasant experience.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

9-2 isn't that bad for having a standard groomed! It's an hour or two longer than it takes to groom straight through, but it's worth it for a groomer that knows poodle trims well! I groom my own poodles, but on the occasion that I outsource, I generally always drop them off around 9-10 and pick up around 2-3.


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

Hi
I would er on the side of the new groomer, as your dog is happier there. Having a happy and relaxed dog is what is important. The cut is secondary, in my opinion. The cut will come, give her time to figure out what you want and what she can do.
Secondly, please let your current groomer know why you are taking your poodle elsewhere. It will really benefit her to know what happened to your business!
I have had people come regularly and then simply disappear, without even a hint of why they stopped making appointments. It's a mystery sometimes.
Hope this helps!
I wish you good luck!


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## PoodleFoster (May 25, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> 9-2 isn't that bad for having a standard groomed!
> 
> Hi
> Just FYI, I shadowed a professional groomer for about 4 months. I was told that 1 to 1 1/2 hours was MAXIMUM time for a bath/dry/groom and anything longer than that was ABUSE. Well, the results were not a good outcome, in my opinion.
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

PoodleFoster said:


> CharismaticMillie said:
> 
> 
> > 9-2 isn't that bad for having a standard groomed!
> ...


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

If you are happy with the job the new groomer does, I'd definitely stay with her. She will learn what you want and how to do it. Your "baby's" happiness and well-being are most important.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

You do a gorgeous job, CM! 

I don't think the OP is bothered by the hours of the first groomer, but rather the noise and chaos of the shop as well as the temperament of the groomer.


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

As a former pro groomer, I'd have to say that if you are talking about a puppy just learning how to be good on the table, I'd go with the inexperienced, sweet young groomer. If you have a dog that is experienced, and doesn't seem to come out of the busy groom shop stressed, I'd stay there. 5 hours is not long to be at the groomer for a Standard! 

When I worked in a busy shop, we usually had to keep dogs for several hours in order to do enough dogs to make money. Once I had my own little business, I groomed in my house, and I scheduled 2 hours for each small dog. That way I had time to do sweet talking and cuddles and a good job. 

One and a half hours? Definitely you would have to hurry the dog in order to do a bath/dry/decent groom in that time. Probably the dog would end up looking like it was run over by a lawnmower! It's not abuse! Especially if you have a good relationship with the dog. 

BTW...I was never able to do a good job on a standard with scissored legs in much less than 4 hours.


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## PoodleDreaming (Jun 10, 2015)

5 hours is not long at all for a standard. I almost never ever finish a standard in less than three hours unless it's getting an all over kennel clip. 

For me, I would stay with the groomer that my dogs are familiar with that puts a nice cut on the dogs. Professional and businesslike is not a bad thing imho. 

I can see the pros and cons of each groomer so it's down to whether or not you don't mind your spoo not looking 100% polished all of time.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well if I was just picking out a groomer, I would go with the sweet one who does 1:1 grooming. But if your dog is used to the busy shop, and does not seem stressed by it, then maybe continue you going there for the better groom. The nice groomer must be really inexperienced to have never done a Miami before, that is a pretty basic clip!
Is there a third option around - like a 1:1 groomer who has more skills?!


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## PoodleDreaming (Jun 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well if I was just picking out a groomer, I would go with the sweet one who does 1:1 grooming. But if your dog is used to the busy shop, and does not seem stressed by it, then maybe continue you going there for the better groom. The nice groomer must be really inexperienced to have never done a Miami before, that is a pretty basic clip!
> Is there a third option around - like a 1:1 groomer who has more skills?!


I've been grooming for 6 years and I have probably only done two dozen miamis. Most people don't want the fuss of the poms. I had one poodle client for half a year that got a Miami, but she moved and I haven't done one since.

I know how to do one, but these days, most of the clients I have don't want their dogs to look like poodles at all. So sad.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PoodleDreaming said:


> I've been grooming for 6 years and I have probably only done two dozen miamis. Most people don't want the fuss of the poms. I had one poodle client for half a year that got a Miami, but she moved and I haven't done one since.
> 
> 
> 
> I know how to do one, but these days, most of the clients I have don't want their dogs to look like poodles at all. So sad.



Wow, that's surprising! Are they just getting shave downs, or teddy bear clips, or what?


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## PoodleDreaming (Jun 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Wow, that's surprising! Are they just getting shave downs, or teddy bear clips, or what?


I do a fair number of lambs, teddys, shave downs, and modified lambs with a blade on body and longer blade on the legs. I only have five poodles that get clean face and only two of those get clean feet.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If your dog is very stressed and upset, then I would go to the new-found groomer with the quieter shop. If you are perceiving the shop to be chaotic but your dog is really not upset or stressed, then I'd stay with that groomer and get the better clip. It just depends on how your dog really feels. 

I can't brush/comb, bathe, dry, shave, clip, scissor etc my toy Poodles in less than 2 - 2/12 hours, sometimes it takes even longer, depending. That does not include nails. Those are done separately. So, I can imagine a Standard taking longer. On the other hand, toy Poodle tootsies are awful tiny and the work is very detailed and you have to be very careful and methodical. So who knows? Anyhow, I do my own...always have except when Matisse was showing. Then I wouldn't dare do it myself. lol. But now that he's retired, I do them both myself and I'm not terribly particular about it...as long as they look reasonable and look like a Poodle. lol. 

Good luck with your decision. To me, it's more important that the dogs have a somewhat (at least) pleasant time and not be all stressed out or nervous on account of a more perfect groom.


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## AngelAviary (Aug 12, 2014)

I would go with the sweet groomer! Your sweet boy can help her learn and you will develop a life long relationship with a gal that with time is going to become the very experienced groomer that everyone wants. Im lucky that Stella has the best of both worlds, a dual certified Master groomer that has had Standards all her life and she owns the shop and sets the time aside to do Stella!

And to respond to the last couple posts Ive had my own groomer tell me (and she does a ton of Poodles) that I am her only Poodle client that does "anything" with her dogs coat. The only one to do any type of trim. They all just do shave downs and maybe long ears/shaved face/feet and that's it! Im glad Stella does not look like everyone else's Poodles in my area!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I am glad DH doesn't read this forum! He would be 100% behind the quicker groom. We go to a small shop with two partners who work 4 days a week. They are always booked solid and Buck has gone there since he was a puppy. My husband thinks he should be done in a couple of hours. I have huge respect for these groomers and a 14 year relationship with them, so tough luck Buck. He's not thrilled to go there, but he's not anxious to leave either. Buck insists on being lifted into the car by one of the partners and he is entirely capable of that small step. Spoiled much?

Obviously, your call on what's best for your dog. Being a well-groomed Poodle ain't easy and as someone on the forum wrote, they have to get used to it


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

AngelAviary said:


> I would go with the sweet groomer! Your sweet boy can help her learn and you will develop a life long relationship with a gal that with time is going to become the very experienced groomer that everyone wants. Im lucky that Stella has the best of both worlds, a dual certified Master groomer that has had Standards all her life and she owns the shop and sets the time aside to do Stella!
> 
> 
> 
> And to respond to the last couple posts Ive had my own groomer tell me (and she does a ton of Poodles) that I am her only Poodle client that does "anything" with her dogs coat. The only one to do any type of trim. They all just do shave downs and maybe long ears/shaved face/feet and that's it! Im glad Stella does not look like everyone else's Poodles in my area!



Those boring shave downs, kennel clips, a occasional teddy bear clips are the only ones that I see around here, but from the fact that so many ask me who Timi's groomer is, I surmised that the lack of style was coming from the groomers, that people want better but the groomers don't have the ability. Maybe I was wrong...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Those boring shave downs, kennel clips, a occasional teddy bear clips are the only ones that I see around here, but from the fact that so many ask me who Timi's groomer is, I surmised that the lack of style was coming from the groomers, that people want better but the groomers don't have the ability. Maybe I was wrong...


Or maybe they are bringing in their dogs hella matted and are disappointed when the Groomer doesn't pull out their magic wand and turn them into Timi - that is entirely possible....


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## PoodleDreaming (Jun 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Or maybe they are bringing in their dogs hella matted and are disappointed when the Groomer doesn't pull out their magic wand and turn them into Timi - that is entirely possible....


It takes a long relationship to train most clients to be half as well behaved as their dogs. :rofl:

A groomer has to start doing all of those matted gross dogs and then they get a few clients here and there that do better. They start prebooking those clients and eventually there isn't room for the clients that bring their dogs in every four months. 

SOME of the style issue is the fact that we ask a client what they want and they really have no clue so they just say, "Take X amount off." For me, I am constantly looking for fun styles for my regulars. Recently I switched one of my clients from a normal pet yorkie clip to an asian fusion style with her permission and she is in love with the clip. It's hard for a groomer with 8-15 dogs on their schedule in a day to spend the time with a parent agonizing over a cut, ya know? If you don't know what you want, how on earth should we? So we just go simple and avoid complaints. It is what is until you develop a relationship with a groomer.

Sorry if I derailed your thread!


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Wow thank you all so much for all your input. Seems a little leaning to sticking with my sweet inexperienced groomer and I so like her personally so I m trying to put aside my ego that loves my boy to look like a million bucks all the time and convince myself to give her some more time. I just kinda freaked out when she said she had never done that and was going to follow a book lol I suppose it is hair and it will grow back....I really appreciate the opinions as it helps me make up my mind. You guys are great as usual!


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## PoodleDreaming (Jun 10, 2015)

Mvinotime said:


> Wow thank you all so much for all your input. Seems a little leaning to sticking with my sweet inexperienced groomer and I so like her personally so I m trying to put aside my ego that loves my boy to look like a million bucks all the time and convince myself to give her some more time. I just kinda freaked out when she said she had never done that and was going to follow a book lol I suppose it is hair and it will grow back....I really appreciate the opinions as it helps me make up my mind. You guys are great as usual!


If I could tell you how many times a pet owner has brought me a breed I've never groomed or asked for a cut that I am not familiar with.... man. But we learn how to read grooming diagrams for a reason, ya know? It might take some time and some tweaking but if you like this young sweet groomer than by all means stick with her. 

It's all about you AND your pet feeling comfortable. I just know that after many years in business, I don't expect I'll be rolling around in the floor with the dogs that I groom. I can hardly do it now, ya know? Grooming is horrifically hard on the body.

I will say that just because a shop is slow and one on one now... doesn't mean it always will be. Plus I often find that inexperienced groomers make mistakes that often cause a groom to take more time or even god forbid lead to injury. That's the main reason my vote is for the experience. A few hours in a kennel and a lovely trim isn't the end of the world for a dog 

But I could tell you a million stories that would support one or the other. I hope you have an easy time making your choice!


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Poodledreaming, you bring up an important point about safety - experienced vs inexperienced. What about safety of a dog with a stressed groomer vs. an unstressed groomer? Just throwing the thought out there.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> PoodleFoster said:
> 
> 
> > Abuse - uh oh - it takes me at least 3-4 hours for a full groom on my standards. Granted I'm not a professional, but I think I do a pretty reasonable job..
> ...


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Those boring shave downs, kennel clips, a occasional teddy bear clips are the only ones that I see around here, but from the fact that so many ask me who Timi's groomer is, I surmised that the lack of style was coming from the groomers, that people want better but the groomers don't have the ability. Maybe I was wrong...



Oh heavens I have had a really horrible time with groomers, just awful. I swear my grooming was better than what I pay for. Hair left on their toes, so when you polish hair is polished too. Now I just clean them up. They do not know what a topknot is, they usually get my girls to short and the ears, they are rally stupid looking. I had to retired show groomer and that ruined me. I do not know of any one that uses scissors other than just on pom poms I cannot get a definate line on the leg and the pom pom, and little Bella just stands there. I took photos, still did not work


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Mvinotime said:


> Ugh well I have a dilemma and would love to hear you guys weigh in. I have a fabulous groomer. She and her family have raised and shown poodles forever and poodles are her specialty. She always has my boy looking amazing and I get constant comments and compliments and people asking who my groomer is. That is the plus side. The downside is that the shop is older and large. I drop him off at 9am and usually pick him up between 2-3pm. It is very busy and very loud. There are multiple groomers and alot of dogs and commotion. I know it is a stressful environment for him as well as a very long day. She is also very businesslike which is fine she is friendly but all about getting the job done. She had hand surgery last month and so I ended up taking my boy to the groomer my friend uses in a neighboring town (she has my boys brother) and she is the sweetest thing, loves on the dogs, they love her even got down on ground when she met him and loved on him in all that hair lol but she is young and inexperienced. I asked her to just follow the lines already on my dog last month and the job wasnt terrible but was definitely not the caliber of groom we are used to. However, the shop is a wonderful little boutique so clean and nice and QUIET! One groomer, one dog at a time. Very relaxing and much less stressful. I dropped him off at 9 and picked him up before noon. No other barking dogs, no people coming and going, does not at any point have to be caged and he does spend time in a kennel at old place etc. Now it is time to do the new summer cut I talked to you guys about in a separate thread (the Miami) and i am debating, should I return to my old groomer who is now back at work or take him back to the other? Im so torn. I sent her the info on the new cut incl pictures and she told me she has seen it but never done it but she has a guide book she can follow and would love to try it out. This makes me so nervous lol I know he is probably happier there but Im happier (MUCH happier) with the work of the old groomer. Opinions? Thanks in advance!


Haven't read the other responses yet, but I have to say, IMO, go with the small shop with the inexperienced gal. This sounds like a wonderful environment , and I just think it's important to give her a chance. Everybody has to start somewhere, and to me, she sounds like the perfect groomer. Give her a chance anyway and see how it goes.

Let me share my story. I got my first Poodle in 1977. Took him to a well established experienced groomer several times throughout that year. Environment was nice, but the shop was a busy place with people going back and forth, and a lot of noise. I didn't like that part, but the groomer did a fantastic job. However, she was all business. Smiled and was courteous when I would first come in, but then, all business. 
In the Summer of 1978, I went to a nursery to pick out flowers to plant in my garden. In the far back of the store, I came across this young lady who was grooming a dog. The space was very small. She said that she had just gotten her degree to be a groomer, and she was happy to show me her certificate, which was hanging on the wall. She said she was just starting out, and was renting a space from the store, in hopes to someday get her own place to start her grooming business. Everything about her was wonderful, so I decided to take my Poodle to her the next time he needed grooming. And you know what? She was my groomer for 35 years, up until the time that Trina passed away in 2013. She had started out in this very small space that she was renting from a garden nursery, to less than a year later, setting up her own shop at her home. The shop is a separate building. She is STILL grooming dogs. Started in 1978, and she is still doing it! Now, to me, that is one dedicated lady! We also developed a nice friendship as well. In fact, I just saw her today. I was taking something to her, and sure enough, when I went inside her shop, she was grooming a beautiful black Poodle. 

So, I say, give the young lady a chance. IMO, she deserves it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mvinotime said:


> Wow thank you all so much for all your input. Seems a little leaning to sticking with my sweet inexperienced groomer and I so like her personally so I m trying to put aside my ego that loves my boy to look like a million bucks all the time and convince myself to give her some more time. I just kinda freaked out when she said she had never done that and was going to follow a book lol I suppose it is hair and it will grow back....I really appreciate the opinions as it helps me make up my mind. You guys are great as usual!


I don't think I would let a groomer who has never done a Miami set the pattern. I don't think it's going to turn out worth doing even going by a book. Why not have the experienced groomer set the pattern and then have the inexperienced groomer follow the pattern? Results will be much better....Otherwise, I'd stick with a kennel clip if you're just going to use the inexperienced groomer.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

I'll be the voice of dissent. I'd stick with the more experienced groomer. But then I'm perfectly able to do a better then average job grooming my own dog (I do better face and feet then any groomer I've found so far ? ) so if I'm taking my dog to the groomer then I want a REALLY good groomer.

It's part of the problem I'm at right now. I grew up helping out in a grooming shop with a lady who groomed and showed poodles. I learned to groom my own dog and I learned to blow dry and some scissoring technics. At the time I had a toy poodle and my sister had a couple of standards and we also helped ready dogs for show. When I left I still groomed my own poodle for many years. So my grooming standards are very high. 

Now I can't find a groomer who can groom a freaking poodle! I have one shop in Houston (an hour from me) who doesn't do a bad job but she can't really do faces and feet but, since she's not a chain store she will take off the price of I do the face and feet myself. (Gee, thanks.)

This last time I took Hazel to PetSmart (against my better judgement but her long bits had gotten completely out of control and I absolutely hate to scissor!) I went in and VERY specifically asked for someone who was VERY experienced with scissoring and the people there assured me that they all are "great with scissors!" They aren't. Or, if they are all to the level of the hack job Hazel got then... I asked for a 30 on her face and feet and again they look like crap. She didn't even try to get around her toes or nails or pads. Her face had big dips out of it and one side wasn't as close as the other. She didn't shave the base of her tail even though she specifically asked me if she should. The scissoring on her poms is completely uneven and not any kind of shape. And there's no excuse there because the hair on her back legs was so long it layed an inch on the floor! Her topknot is very nearly a reverse Mohawk and she didn't even trim the bit in the band. I think she trimmed her ears but you can't tell because she didn't dry her correctly. Bits stick out all over her. So for $70 she didn't even do half as good of a job as I could have done myself. BUT! If I didn't know better and I was only asking for a "pet groom" they didn't really do a horribly awful job. It's just that *I* could have done better so it wasn't worth it for me. 

I groom her about every 3 weeks but she's only been to a groomer twice. If I lived closer to her breeder I'd take her back there. But she's the only groomer would grooms to the level I can live with. 

So, if it was me, I probably wouldn't use the less experienced groomer. But I am usually paying for their grooming experience and not for them to pet and cuddle my dog. 

(Just so you know, I have an equally hard time finding someone who can correctly cut my son's long hair. It's very hard to find someone who understands that boy long hair isn't cut the same as girl long hair!)


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Mvinotime said:
> 
> 
> > Wow thank you all so much for all your input. Seems a little leaning to sticking with my sweet inexperienced groomer and I so like her personally so I m trying to put aside my ego that loves my boy to look like a million bucks all the time and convince myself to give her some more time. I just kinda freaked out when she said she had never done that and was going to follow a book lol I suppose it is hair and it will grow back....I really appreciate the opinions as it helps me make up my mind. You guys are great as usual!
> ...


As far as grooms go, the Miami isn't all that hard to set. The worst of it is placing the poms on the front legs and really even the lesser experienced groomer should be able to handle that. 

Setting a lamb or conti is much harder in my opinion. 

I definitely wouldn't use a groomer of I wasn't confident they could set a Miami.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

itzmeigh said:


> I'll be the voice of dissent. I'd stick with the more experienced groomer. But then I'm perfectly able to do a better then average job grooming my own dog (I do better face and feet then any groomer I've found so far ? ) so if I'm taking my dog to the groomer then I want a REALLY good groomer.
> 
> It's part of the problem I'm at right now. I grew up helping out in a grooming shop with a lady who groomed and showed poodles. I learned to groom my own dog and I learned to blow dry and some scissoring technics. At the time I had a toy poodle and my sister had a couple of standards and we also helped ready dogs for show. When I left I still groomed my own poodle for many years. So my grooming standards are very high.
> 
> ...



*It sounds like you're talking about Matisse! I should fire his groomer. (me)* :afraid:



Okay, here's my final answer: If your dog's emotional health is suffering terribly, his psyche being damaged by going to the better groomer, then take him to the inexperienced groomer but only as long as she learns fast how to make your dog look pretty decent and you're happy with his coiffe. If it's just a temporary, less than fun day...one day out of a month or two, then tell him to buck up. lol.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

itzmeigh said:


> As far as grooms go, the Miami isn't all that hard to set. The worst of it is placing the poms on the front legs and really even the lesser experienced groomer should be able to handle that.
> 
> Setting a lamb or conti is much harder in my opinion.
> 
> I definitely wouldn't use a groomer of I wasn't confident they could set a Miami.


Hmmm...To be honest, most of the miamis I see set by pet groomers who aren't specifically experienced grooming poodles aren't done quite right...There's just aspects of the pattern that a groomer who has never done it before and who is going by the book but doesn't have knowledge of bracelet placement (and the poodle specific structural reasons for bracelet placement) simply isn't going to know. And why would they know it? In fact, the best way for them to learn it would be for a groomer experienced with show poodles to set the bracelets and then the less experienced pet groomer learn from that.

And yes, a continental is going to be a lot harder to set! That's a given!


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> itzmeigh said:
> 
> 
> > *It sounds like you're talking about Matisse! I should fire his groomer. (me)*
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

itzmeigh said:


> Poodlebeguiled said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is, I don't care if *I* do a less then perfect job. The price I pay to groom Hazel myself is worth the quality of my groom. I make mistakes and learn from them.
> ...


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> itzmeigh said:
> 
> 
> > As far as grooms go, the Miami isn't all that hard to set. The worst of it is placing the poms on the front legs and really even the lesser experienced groomer should be able to handle that.
> ...


I guess I can see that. Maybe my ideas of what's expected knowledge is skewed (I've said this before to my sister) because what I learned as basic grooming information centered on show poodles. 

But I can see what you're saying as well. If "your" basic grooming background was "how to shave a matted dog" then some of the "reasons" for lines wouldn't matter. 

I was taught over years of observation and while I was never formally taught to groom (heck, I was only about 14-20 at the time) we did learn a whole lot about lines and following the lines of the dog and why you do certain things. I can rough in many patterns on a poodle just going by lines. I can also neaten up my other sister's Pomeranian. And I can do a pretty nice schnauzer/terrier groom. 

So maybe I just see it all different.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

itzmeigh said:


> Poodlebeguiled said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is, I don't care if *I* do a less then perfect job. The price I pay to groom Hazel myself is worth the quality of my groom. I make mistakes and learn from them.
> ...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

itzmeigh said:


> I guess I can see that. Maybe my ideas of what's expected knowledge is skewed (I've said this before to my sister) because what I learned as basic grooming information centered on show poodles.
> 
> But I can see what you're saying as well. If "your" basic grooming background was "how to shave a matted dog" then some of the "reasons" for lines wouldn't matter.
> 
> ...



I think that the number one most important question to ask a groomer is "what kind of dogs do you own?"
If the answer is poodle, Bichon, or maybe Schnauzer, I think you can rest assured that you are going to get a good groom - virtually definitely if they own one or more poodles because it indicates a person with a true interest and love of styling the breed.
I have a number of Facebook friends who are groomers who own multiple poodles and their work is breathtaking!


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

oh my gosh now im changing my mind again lol all good and valid points ugh. My original amazing groomer is in same town minutes away too and the other is a 30 min drive out of town. Oddly enough the new young groomer who for the record did not do a terrible job just not the same caliber....the blow out wasnt as nice and she missed a teeny spot right in corner of eye i kept thinking was an eye booger for days lol and i had asked she follow existing lines from original groomer and she didnt. The sanitary wasnt large enough so he peed on himself some etc and mostly it just seemed choppy a little if that makes sense? Especially on legs and the area between eyes didnt seem even and other lady has a perfect line etc. I was surprised she didnt do a better job following the lines arleady there honestly. Nothing horrific just not as nice IMO let me try to attach pics here of each. Ok but back on track oddly enough she was higher priced than my original groomer which shocked me but maybe because its a larger town I have to travel too ? Not sure. These arent great pics but this is right after the new inexperienced groom and then a couple days and in the next post i will post some from original groomer ...keep in mind I am a total poodle newbie and maybe I dont know what is good or not lol


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Original groomer pics attached


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

itzmeigh said:


> Poodlebeguiled said:
> 
> 
> > The thing is, I don't care if *I* do a less then perfect job. The price I pay to groom Hazel myself is worth the quality of my groom. I make mistakes and learn from them.
> ...


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

I could live with either of those grooms. You are right that the original groom looks better blown out. 

The first set of pictures (new groomer) looks like maybe she didn't go as short. It also looks like she didn't do much scissoring on the body. But it looks even enough and easy to make adjustments.

But like others have pointed out, 9-12 can mean you aren't getting as good of a blow dry as if they are there from 9-2. It can also be a differnece in the type of dryer being used. 

I think, after seeing the 2 set of pictures I might would give the new groomer a chance to make the changes you want. It does look like she knows what she is doing but needs more practice. 

I'd let her give the Miami a try and be ready to have to go back to the other groomer to get it fixed. 

If she misses the placement on the bracelets it doesn't take very long for the hair to grow out so the lines can be corrected.


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Thank you for your input. Is there a specific starting point for the bracelets? In pics it seemed to me to start at the joint right there? Would that be correct? and down to ankle? Just for my own understanding and maybe to tell her as far as some direction. I know I do not want them to look like round pom poms but more that even sleeve look of the bracelet I see in pics and that is mostly what I am afraid she will do so I am really going to emphasize not to make them pom poms. I am thinking his ears and topknot can almost stay the same as they are now just some trim and blending of topknot into the long ears. If i use a #7 or a #5 (havent decided yet) I dont think there will be much to blow out correct? Aside from head, ears and tail? Almost seems easier then the longer clip he has now but again what do I know lol


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mvinotime said:


> Thank you for your input. Is there a specific starting point for the bracelets? In pics it seemed to me to start at the joint right there? Would that be correct? and down to ankle? Just for my own understanding and maybe to tell her as far as some direction. I know I do not want them to look like round pom poms but more that even sleeve look of the bracelet I see in pics and that is mostly what I am afraid she will do so I am really going to emphasize not to make them pom poms. I am thinking his ears and topknot can almost stay the same as they are now just some trim and blending of topknot into the long ears. If i use a #7 or a #5 (havent decided yet) I dont think there will be much to blow out correct? Aside from head, ears and tail? Almost seems easier then the longer clip he has now but again what do I know lol


They don't start at the joint on the front arms - that would be wayyyyy too low. It's actually about the width of 3-4 fingers above the front ankle joint, but you have to eyeball it. It's best to set the bracelets slightly high and then move them down in small increments if needed. For the back bracelets, the highest part of the bracelet will be a finger or two wide above the hock joint. That should be approximately equal with the height of the front bracelets, but it may end up being a touch lower, just depending on what best emphasizes the dog's structure. The front of the back bracelets will start lower than the back of the back bracelets and will be considerably lower than the start/top of the front bracelets. 

I like a 4 blade with a Miami but some people do a 5 or even a 7. The problem with a 7 is that it's more difficult to blend in a neck crest and my poodles always have neck crests.  I also really don't like the contrast between a 7 bladed body being the length of the bracelets. 

Not sure what the sleeve look is..

Even with the body clipped at 4, 5 or 7, it needs to be force dried. This will help the fresh clipping look smooth. The bracelets, topknot and, if you have one, neck crest require quite a bit of scissoring, so they do need to be force dryed, then stretch dried for scissoring.

The tricky part will just be her setting the bracelets properly and giving them the right shape.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh gosh. I think they're both nice jobs. Maybe I don't notice such detail or something. But yeah...if it were me and the one groomer's place is more pleasant to you and your dog, it's closer, easier...I'd go with the new groomer. But maybe you notice differences better than I do, plus maybe things aren't quite as clear in a photo. Anyhow, lovely dog...nice groom jobs, both.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> itzmeigh said:
> 
> 
> > Yes! I have a problem with paying $70-$80+ and then going home to fix the trim.
> ...


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

itzmeigh said:


> I could live with either of those grooms. You are right that the original groom looks better blown out.
> 
> The first set of pictures (new groomer) looks like maybe she didn't go as short. It also looks like she didn't do much scissoring on the body. But it looks even enough and easy to make adjustments.
> 
> ...




I totally agree. You know, the way I look at it is, everyone has to start out somewhere. An experienced groomer isn't automatically experienced when they first start out. Every groomer learns as they go. They all deserve a chance to make sure their customer is satisfied with their work. 

As for the distance to drive, I understand that you have to drive farther to get to the less experienced groomer, but personally, the peace of mind, knowing that my dog is in a nice and quiet environment, would be well worth the extra distance. When we moved to the country, I had to drive 25 minutes to get to my groomer, while there were other groomers within 10 to 12 minutes, that I COULD HAVE taken the dogs to. But there was no way that I was going to do that. By that time, I had been taking the dogs to Kathe for over 20 years, and I wouldn't have cared if she was an hour away, I still would have been happy to do it.

BTW, I think the young inexperienced groomer did a fantastic job!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

TrixieTreasure said:


> CharismaticMillie said:
> 
> 
> > Are we talking that much for a Standard, or any size? $70 + is sure a lot of money to pay for grooming. Of course, I do realize that it depends on where a person lives. The most I've ever paid for my Toy Poodles were $45 each and then I would give a $10 tip. Heck, I remember back in the 80's, the price for grooming was $25 to $30.
> ...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> TrixieTreasure said:
> 
> 
> > Standard. I pay between $70-$100 per dog when I have them groomed by someone other than me. $45 sounds about right for a toy poodle.
> ...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I took Matisse to three groomers before shows. Two of them asked $50.00 and one, the really super one charged $85. Plus a tip I'd give her. She was amazing though. And the farthest drive. 

Trixie...it's been a while since you had Poodles so maybe the prices have gone up since then. (?) Plus, it varies by location. The two least expensive ones I used were north of Seattle...one, just on the outskirts though and the other, about 30 miles north. And the most expensive one was in Bellevue, just east of Seattle, which has become a very pricey place to live, very "uptown." So who knows?

I groom my own because not only do I save money, but because I enjoy it...for the most part. And I think the dogs like the time we spend together on a project (they love projects, lol) other than it gets kind of hard if it takes too long. :ahhhhh:


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

TrixieTreasure said:


> CharismaticMillie said:
> 
> 
> > Are we talking that much for a Standard, or any size? $70 + is sure a lot of money to pay for grooming. Of course, I do realize that it depends on where a person lives. The most I've ever paid for my Toy Poodles were $45 each and then I would give a $10 tip. Heck, I remember back in the 80's, the price for grooming was $25 to $30.
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> TrixieTreasure said:
> 
> 
> > Maizie is $150 plus tip.
> ...


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

As long as your dog is not stressed out I would continue with the experienced groomer. Shorter drying time worries me, is the young groomer cage drying? I think the dog is less apt to be nervous in the hands of an experienced talented groomer and less likely to be cut. My first groomer did competition poodles. For health reasons she has retired. My new groomer is very nice and does a good job but slightly off. Swizzle's bracelets are slightly high and his topknot looks more appropriate to a standard (you know how they are more rounded than a toy). I have requested changes but they just don't see it. Sometime when I have more time I will try to do a full groom. I don't do a quick trim in between groomings now. If you have a great groomer and your dog is not overly stressed I would stay with her.


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

just to clarify, I made sure up front NO cage drying would ever be done and she absolutely does not cage dry. It is only by hand. I just like her personally so much better. Last time she was running 15 min behind due to client showing up late (1 dog at a time) and called me well in advance to give me a heads up so that Otis wouldnt have to wait etc she is very good at communication prior, during and after. My other gal is not. I had no clue she was going out on carpal tunnel surgery no heads up no contact anything I only found out when I tried to make appt and once prior I had appt and showed up and and she was not there no phone call or anything I understand things come up but the communication is not good. And she has always told me he is a "handful" hes a very wiggly pup and my file there says "Christine only" so not sure if that is cause hes too much of a pain and no one else wants to bother or because I tip very heavily lol because I know it is not an easy job, I had forewarned the new groomer about him being a pain per the old groomer but she said he was really really good and nothing out of normal for a pup etc so her attitude with him was different than my old groomer as far as when I picked him up and the feedback. But I can just tell she is more patient and less "businesslike" about it all. She was super informative about anything she noticed and gives a little report and not sure if this is common practice but she brushed his teeth??? lol she gave me the little finger brush thing to take with me. I had not experienced that before but my gut right now says to put my ego aside about the little nuances of the cut (I hope they are little with this new summer style lol) and try to stick it out with her and give her a chance with the new cut. My appt is Sunday so Im going to go ahead and jump in and see what we get. Overall I like many things about her and the facility MUCH better except for the finished product....but maybe with time. It does concern me to hear about them getting hurt from an inexperienced groomer though...does that happen often? I wish I had not been born a worrier sometimes


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

From your description, it sounds like this new groomer might just make you happier all around as long as she doesn't nick him too many times. lol. I wouldn't worry too much. Give her a try or two and see how it all works out. I like that she is patient and takes his wiggly behavior in stride rather than complaining about him. The more practice he gets, the better he'll behave. It sounds like you've made your decision so be happy, confident in your choice and remember....nothing's in stone. You can always go back if it turns out to be not so good. Oh and I don't know that every inexperienced groomer is going to nick too much. I never nicked my Poodles when I was first learning. I think I've nicked them a few times now that I'm an old hand at it. lol. Actually, I think my blade was getting dull. As long as it's few and far between, I wouldn't worry too much about it. She's probably experienced enough by now that it won't happen too much.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I took Matisse to three groomers before shows. Two of them asked $50.00 and one, the really super one charged $85. Plus a tip I'd give her. She was amazing though. And the farthest drive.
> 
> Trixie...it's been a while since you had Poodles so maybe the prices have gone up since then. (?) Plus, it varies by location. The two least expensive ones I used were north of Seattle...one, just on the outskirts though and the other, about 30 miles north. And the most expensive one was in Bellevue, just east of Seattle, which has become a very pricey place to live, very "uptown." So who knows?
> 
> I groom my own because not only do I save money, but because I enjoy it...for the most part. And I think the dogs like the time we spend together on a project (they love projects, lol) other than it gets kind of hard if it takes too long. :ahhhhh:



I went by and visited with my dog groomer yesterday ( we're friends and I swing by her shop to say hi every couple of months when I'm in that area). The next time I talk to her, I'll ask her how much she charges these days. The one thing that I do know is, she has ALWAYS been more reasonable than the regular grooming shops. She has mostly gotten clients through word- of-mouth. She is the owner of the business, and she has never had anyone worked for her. She sets appointments to her own schedule . She lives out of town a little ways, and her shop is right there on her property. She and her husband owns horses and her daughter competes in horse shows ,etc. She's a real down to earth kind of lady, who does a lot of outdoor stuff. She's still grooming, but after 38 years, she HAS kind of semi retired( my goodness, she deserves it, lol). She's a beautiful lady, in, and out, and I've truly been blessed to have her in my life, and in my dog's lives, for all of those years.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am glad you found out about cage drying before selecting a groomer. Go with your gut on which groomer to use. Groomers are trained to say that your dog is fine - that is the default answer. Try to assess yourself how good your dog is by fooling with her feet ect. I like to know this because then I can work on it. Your puppy is more likely to get cut if she is squirmy.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

I'd go with the experienced groomer, provided that your dog is not acting stressed there. Sometimes what we might view as stressful is not actually so to the dogs. (I know a lot of people think dog shows are chaotic, but Brooks fell asleep in the middle of the floor with barking and strangers everywhere) I used to have a groomer who was experienced with Poodle cuts, and I have not been able to find someone of her caliber since she moved away. So sad! Two hours difference doesn't seem like much of a trade-off when it comes to grooming.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I would go with the more experienced groomer too. Poodles get used to be groomed, and they used to a busy grooming shop. With a more experienced person, you don't need to worry about nicks, razor burn and other possible issues that inexperienced groomers might cause. Besides, experienced groomers are on the lookout for skin issues or little lumps on your dog, because they look at every inch of him while blow drying etc. Experience is my vote.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Or maybe they are bringing in their dogs hella matted and are disappointed when the Groomer doesn't pull out their magic wand and turn them into Timi - that is entirely possible....


I suspect this happens all too frequently. People don't mean to fail with their Poodles' coats, but they can be hard to keep up with for busy owners. With all our recent rains (desperately needed and welcomed, just tricky with a Poodle with some length of coat), I discovered Oliver's legs were wanting to mat something awful. Had to jump on that right away, and imagine a professional groomer could have felt best to cut very short. I'm lucky to have product, tools, and time to not only trim, but also to have been able to work out the tangles without causing him pain. Groom shops have to charge a ton for that extra time, and righteously so, because time is money for them.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Mvinotime said:


> Wow thank you all so much for all your input.  Seems a little leaning to sticking with my sweet inexperienced groomer and I so like her personally so I m trying to put aside my ego that loves my boy to look like a million bucks all the time and convince myself to give her some more time. I just kinda freaked out when she said she had never done that and was going to follow a book lol I suppose it is hair and it will grow back....I really appreciate the opinions as it helps me make up my mind. You guys are great as usual!


I can definitely see a pro needing to consult his/her book for a cut s/he doesn't usually have requested.

And as you've rightly perceived, a professional consulting a book already has all the basics and well beyond, and just needs the details of the particular breed and/or cut. Not at all the same as a rank amateur such as me trying to strip a Border Terrier or get a perfect Bichon head or card a Springer Spaniel with no formal training under my belt .

ETA: I'm not pushing for the less experienced groomer, btw, and in fact it sounds like the more experienced groomer may offer a better experience because she will not be feeling uncertain about her work, which your Poodle could potentially pick up and begin acting up. Just wanted to say I know experienced groomers can translate what's in a book more quickly than someone with no training.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Streetcar said:


> I suspect this happens all too frequently. People don't mean to fail with their Poodles' coats, but they can be hard to keep up with for busy owners. With all our recent rains (desperately needed and welcomed, just tricky with a Poodle with some length of coat), I discovered Oliver's legs were wanting to mat something awful. Had to jump on that right away, and imagine a professional groomer could have felt best to cut very short. I'm lucky to have product, tools, and time to not only trim, but also to have been able to work out the tangles without causing him pain. Groom shops have to charge a ton for that extra time, and righteously so, because time is money for them.



I do admit that I have a huge advantage not having to send my girls out in rain or snow - I think I would have to keep them lots shorter if they were going to get wet every time that they had to pee!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I do admit that I have a huge advantage not having to send my girls out in rain or snow - I think I would have to keep them lots shorter if they were going to get wet every time that they had to pee!


Gotta say when we do the quicky out to pee/poo while it's raining, I slip the snood on Oliver, and it makes a huge diff for his topknot and ears ! He's a smeller and now his ears don't fall into the water rushing down the street.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Streetcar said:


> Gotta say when we do the quicky out to pee/poo while it's raining, I slip the snood on Oliver, and it makes a huge diff for his topknot and ears ! He's a smeller and now his ears don't fall into the water rushing down the street.



Still though -even just getting it slightly damp is going to make it curl up, and if you can't brush it right away...
I have even noticed that when it is humid in the Summer and I have Timi out, she will be all "nappy" by the time we get home - the moisture in the air makes her hair want to felt!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Indiana said:


> I would go with the more experienced groomer too. Poodles get used to be groomed, and they used to a busy grooming shop. With a more experienced person, you don't need to worry about nicks, razor burn and other possible issues that inexperienced groomers might cause. Besides, experienced groomers are on the lookout for skin issues or little lumps on your dog, because they look at every inch of him while blow drying etc. Experience is my vote.


Those are good reasons for staying with the more experienced groomer!


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

Another thing to take into consideration...Each groomer will have their own routine that they follow with most dogs. The dogs get used to that routine. If they know the routine, they are happier. 

For instance, I always start brushing with the dog's left front leg, move to the left back, then right back, then right front. Then I do the body, front to back, the head, and the tail last. Nails, the same order. That way, they know what to expect, and some would even give me the proper foot. Then I do a rough clipper, bathe, dry, and a finish cut. they would know when they were all done, because it was the same each time.

I always had to train a new dog to do it "my way", and they were always a little confused and more nervous the first few times they came to me.


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Well we went with the new groomer and she did a great job  I'm very happy other than the bracelets being too long which was partly my fault in trying to explain what I wanted I think she did really well for never doing it before. I just really like her so much and the facility and she is so informative of every little thing she notices during grooming regarding skin etc and the other groomer never mentioned anything to me. I think he looks really cute this way! His body is like suede and even changes color some as you move hair like suede does darker or lighter lol soo soft too! So here are some pics and you can tell me what you think since your much more poodle savvy than I. ? He thinks he looks fabulous as he's been prancing all over this afternoon lol Happy Pup and Happy Mom!


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

More pics


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Sorry can't do more than one at time on iPad


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

One last one


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, bracelets are a little high, but he looks gorgeous! He is such a handsome poodle. I love his tail--it's unique


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

I like his topknot...that''s just the style I like to do. I don't like it when the topknot bulges out too much over the ears.

Doesn't look like she did any scissoring to shape the bracelets, and yeah, they are too high. The rear ones should angle, higher in back to cover the hock, then lower in front to the bend of the hock. Everything else looks pretty good, though!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well...she certainly didn't start them down too low! 

The rear bracelets especially need to be moved lower and need to be angled as described in a previous post a few days ago. The front ones are actually set at almost the right height and after scissoring they wouldn't be too bad...

Honestly, the biggest issue with the bracelets is that really need to be scissored and beveled. It doesn't look like she scissored them at all... They look like she just shaved the arms/legs and left them wild. LOL. It's actually a pretty decent rough in - now its time for scissoring. Oh how I am dying to scissor those bracelets!

Topknot, tail and ears look just fine.


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Well...she certainly didn't start them down too low!
> 
> The rear bracelets especially need to be moved lower and need to be angled as described in a previous post a few days ago. The front ones are actually set at almost the right height and after scissoring they wouldn't be too bad...
> 
> ...


Haha! Me too! Or not scissor them because I hate to scissor! But at least shave them shorter. They are too box like for me. 

Tail looks nice and the ears are nice but the topknot is a bit short for the ears. He needs a bit more topknot to balance the poofy ears or she needs to thin his ears down. But that's a bit more of a personal style thing. She could still separate the ears from the topknot while leaving the topknot a bit longer (more tall and round. I'll see if I can find a picture.)

Otherwise, good job.


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

Thank you all great info! I so wish you were closer so we could run over for scissoring lol Ok good tips on the bracelets and gosh she must not of known to scissor them? When she text me to tell me she would be 15 min longer she said she was finishing scissoring but maybe that wasn't the legs? I agree they aren't as shaped as the pics I have seen and they were obviously too high....next time we will address that for sure he goes back in four weeks. I also would of liked a tad more top knot left but I asked her to make it proportionate to the cut ( used a five blade) and she did want to clean up ears but that was my fault as they have never been cut and I asked her not too. So I am jotting down all the tips in my grooming notes for next time. I really appreciate the help! He has an odd thinning spot between his shoulder blades she brought to my attention not sure what that is from she thought flea control meds but I haven't used them since last summer so gotta keep an eye on that and see if it progresses or goes away etc. nice to get rid of all that hair and see what is underneath ?


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## itzmeigh (Apr 28, 2014)

You might be better off not trying to explain what you want and showing her some pictures instead.

You might inadvertently tell her to do something "wrong" because you aren't a groomer. But if you give her a picture (not just show, but give so she can reference it while she grooms) she might get closer to what you want. 

"I want the ears to look like this picture but the bracelts to look more like that picture." Can be more helpful then "leave the ears fluffy" and "make the bracelts start and stop here".

She might not have scissored the legs because you didn't specifically say to scissor them. Because you aren't a groomer and you didn't know you needed to be that specific and because last time someone gave instructions and she thought they just left "scissor the legs" out of their instructions the customer complained she didn't follow their instructions. Does that make sense?

I always try to go to a groomer with pictures and/or written details that they can keep while they groom. 

I also include my phone number on my instructions and tell them to not hesitate one single second to call me if they get "stuck" or have even the smallest question. 

If you liked the length on his body and face you might ask her what blades she used and next time include that with your instructions. Some groomers keep notes about each groom and some don't. 

Here are some topknot and ear pictures that show more of the balance I'm talking about. A couple of them aren't a Maimi clip but that doesn't matter. The topknot would be the same either way. 

#1 nice topknot.

#2 nice topknot but I don't like his bracelts. The front ones are too small and too round for my tastes. They look out of balance to his long legs. 

#3 nice over all. Everything is in good balance. I'd want more fluff on the bracelts but I like long fluffy bracelts. But I like the placement on these. 

#4 my girl Hazel. I think this is before her groom but it shows her bracelts a bit better. Her bracelts are my own liking. They are super long and shaped more similar to a Clydesdale's legs which I feel makes her look like she's wearing Ugg boots (her fronts aren't as long as her backs because she chews them some when holding chew toys I think.). This is an older picture (from December). I feel like being long and floppy balances them with her crazy topknot and gives her a bit of a "rock star" look. I was just looking at them today and thinking they've creeped up a bit and I need to move them back down a bit. But just to give you some other ideas of the fun you can have!


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

Mvinotime, I also think that maybe some of the ear hair should be topknot hair. It makes the ears look like they are too high set. The topknot should start right at the top of the ear leather. This also makes the ears look fluffy and out-of-proportion compared to the topknot. My personal preference is for a conservative topknot that's pretty straight on the sides, but that's not everyone's taste. I, too crave scissoring those bracelets!

Can't wait to have a spoo to groom again! You can get creative and artistic...the Scotties are same old, same old.


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## Mvinotime (May 25, 2015)

OH my goodness Hazel is a rockstar for sure! I love her look! I also prefer a flashy full fluffy look lol that's why I was bummed my top knot was so trim but your exactly right the issues were my doing in trying to tell vs show when I do not have the knowledge behind it. I did show her one pic but I will give her one for reference next time. She has taken notes in front of me prior to my leaving both times and I chose a five blade for body which I do like a lot so will probably stick with that. I appreciate the visual aids of some other options for him. He is a farm poodle lol not a show dog so it's nice to know its ok to get a little off the beaten path with the styles and just kinda learn as I go. Poodles sure are fun. I'm hooked for life I know that!


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