# Is this significant event on CERF



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

*D3a-Iris, persistent pupillary membranes- iris to iris
*
Does this mean anything serious for a poodle breed ? I found that it has BIG significance for Welsh Corgis , Mastiffs and Chows and that dogs with that will not get certification at all ! But for some breeds it does not present such problem. 

They never mentioned Standard Poodle , so I wonder if anybody knows how significant that finding is in a spoo and can a Spoo get a certificate if one has that condition noticed during an exam ?

Thanks in advance


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

OK - I guess nobody knows :rolffleyes: - maybe than it is not important for Spoos :rolffleyes: , otherwise breeders here would definitely know


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I have no idea. I think talking to an ophthalmologist would be the best thing to do.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Cbrand  

It is something I saw on the OFA site on the CERF part of one poodle and than wondered what is that condition . I did some googling, of course, and found above mentioned info, but than no site mentioned significance for a spoo :rolffleyes: 

Have you ever saw it on spoo CERF doing any of health checks on OFA ???


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ok.. I had to go look more about it. I found this which I thought was intersting:

_PPMs are found in many breeds of dog. In most of these breeds, iris to iris PPMs are classified by CERF as a "breeder option" problem. This means that most of the PPMs which have been reported in these breeds have been small and are probably sporadically occurring and not hereditary defects. Dogs with these small iris to iris PPMs who have been bred have not been reported to have puppies with vision problems. This does not mean that problems will never occur in these breeds. Owners with dogs diagnosed with PPMs should be aware of the situation and should probably either not breed affected dogs or should breed the affected dogs only to unaffected dogs.

In some breeds, PPMs are known to be hereditary and puppies who have any type of PPM will not receive a certification number. The Basenji is the most well known but CERF will also not certify Chow Chows, Mastiffs, Pembroke Welsh Corgis, or Yorkshire Terriers with PPMs. Members of these breeds have been shown to produce offspring with blindness directly associated with their PPMs. In these breeds, the mechanism of inheritance is not known but breeding any of these dogs with PPMs is highly discouraged._

On second consideration, I had heard of PPMs before. I have seen the subject come up on a Doodle breeder site. They are unhappy with CERF because CERF will not give a "CERF Normal" to a Poodle mix that has PPMs but it is "breeder discretion" for Poodles. So, it is something seen in Poodles. 

They eye issue that I see more often in Poodles is: punctuate cataracts. These are tiny pinprick cataracts that don't necessarily get bigger and don't necessarily affect vision. CERF labels this as "breeder discretion". Still, if a dog comes back with this diagnosis, I'd want to see that it is re-CERFed every year to see if changes have occurred.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Thanks Cbrand for finding time to look into this and explaining to me what "breeder discretion" means actually. 

Yes, punctate c. I saw more often - but this was completely new condition I encountered !:rolffleyes:

I know you are not a "mushy" person - but sending you :flowers: anyway : )) !


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

I have had dogs int he past with PPM.. CERF vet said to not worry unless the we started seeing more concentration in offspring, etc.

As far as the puntcuate cataracts, just keep an eye on it. One of our older dogs for 2 years had 3 little PC's, then they started to connect like a Y suture. but then stopped. CERF vet would not give her a passing CERF when they started to change, but said if she remains the same in June 2010, then will give a passing CERF. We have had dogs show a PC one year, then was gone the next.

Breeders options are things that are not significant in the breed "right now".


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

tintlet said:


> I have had dogs int he past with PPM.. CERF vet said to not worry unless the we started seeing more concentration in offspring, etc.
> 
> As far as the puntcuate cataracts, just keep an eye on it. One of our older dogs for 2 years had 3 little PC's, then they started to connect like a Y suture. but then stopped. CERF vet would not give her a passing CERF when they started to change, but said if she remains the same in June 2010, then will give a passing CERF. We have had dogs show a PC one year, then was gone the next.
> 
> Breeders options are things that are not significant in the breed "right now".


Right, but when these things show up on an exam, I think breeders need to follow up every year with an exam to track progress. It makes me want to go :fish: when I see this on a breeding dog's record on OFA but there isn't consistent follow up testing. Here is an example:

POS-3006 CERFOct 28 2006 TESTED: 01,03,04,06:
CERF Breeder's Option Code(s):
E1-Lens, punctate cataract *significance unknown

This stud dog hasn't been retested since 2006 but he continues to be bred. He just had a litter late last year.


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