# So week #2 of puppy class and I was scolded!



## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

I brought Gracie home Christmas week. She is 3 mos old. One of the reasons I picked her was that she was on the shy side. She has really come out of her shell since becoming a part of my family. She loves me, my youngest son, age 19, who lives at home while attending college, and Dudley, her 8 year old Shih Tzu brother.
I spend alot of time with her in the mornings, before work. I come home at lunch time and give her more attention. I really wanted to create a strong bond with her! She is still shy with strangers.

I enrolled her in a 4 week puppy class. When we go in, Gracie is wallking on the leash, is on the ground by my side but as the other dogs come in, she puts her front paws on my lap for me to pick her up. I pick her up and place her on my lap! Evidently, according to the instructor, I'm not suppose to do that.

Then came the walking on a leash. The aid to the instructor took the leash from me and proceeded to demonstrate, with Gracie, the proper way to walk your dog on a leash. Gracie went crazy trying to get to me! Again, I was scolded because she shouldn't be that attached to me that she fights going with someone else on a leash!

Am I being a bad poodle mom for wanting to reassure her when she's scared?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It is a difficult one. A sensible instructor will make allowances for a young, rather nervous puppy, but at the same time you need to encourage and reward her to be confident around other dogs and people. I know one Yorkshire terrier whose owner picked her up every time another dog came along to keep her safe - the dog is now terrified of other dogs, and snaps and snarls at them. I did let Poppy sit on my knee at classes, but I didn't wrap my arms around her. At the same time, if she was nervous of other dogs while on the floor, I took care to position myself between them and her. Poppy - at 18 months - will not walk or stay with anyone if she can see me, or is trying to get to me. It is something I know I need to work on.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Tuffcookie said:


> Am I being a bad poodle mom for wanting to reassure her when she's scared?


In a word, yes. Owners can positively ruin Poodles by molly-coddling them. We want our Poodles to be confident and self assured and stand up on their own 4 feet. If you keep "rescuing" your bitch in every stressful situation, you will turn her into a nervous Nellie. Unfortunately this can lead to behaviors like fear biting or separation anxiety. When things get a bit dicey, you need to adopt an attitude of confidence that will travel down the leash. If you are not worried, she will not be worried.

As far as strangers go, it is time to get out and introduce her to the world. I like to get a pocket full of treats and take my Poodles out to a public place. I ask strangers if they would like to feed my dog. At first, you may just have to have strangers turn their heads away and hand Gracie a treat. Work up to the point where they can look at her and give a treat and then pet her and give a treat.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Also, remember, this dog is going to get big, she's not going to be lap dog size anymore. You could be unintentionally teaching her that putting paws on people is okay, and that could lead to jumping whenever she needs reassurance.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

We took both our poodles to rally and obedience classes last March/April-ish... I think Lucy was around 6 months old. We had socialized with her at local stores that allow leashed dogs, and wherever else we could think of. The only thing we hadn't thought of when we were out socializing was to allow other people (friendly strangers) to take Lucy's leash and walk with her a bit. When we were in classes, the instructor took Lucy's leash and she went a little nuts (not terribly bad) but also submissively urinated a little.

That was it!! We began a training/socialization regimine that included handing her off to people at random. Instead of us walking away from the person, or they walking away from us, we'd walk together for a short distance and then we'd sort of veer away from each other - we NEVER reassured Lucy when she was in an agitated state - that just reinforces tha the way she's feeling is correct. We ignored bad behavior and rewarded good behavior. 

Since our awakening to proper (complete) socialization, both Lucy and our daughter's spoo Chalumeau, have achieved their Canine Good Citizen title from AKC - part of the test requires you to leave your dog with a friendly stranger while you leave their sight for a period of time. The dog needs to be able to be confident enough to handle your absence and behave well for the handler. Lucy actually did a bit better on this part of the test than Meau did! 

A happy, confident dog is a wonderful thing!


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks, everyone, for your input. I guess it is something I will have to work on.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

Hoolie was not a real confident dog when he came to me.. We went through sort of the same as you when we went to classes. personally I don't think taking the dog from you in that manner and making her even more stressed was a good way to handle things. I have been taking Hoolie out to the park and socializing him with other people. he was rewarded for just not hiding behind me LOL! he has graduated to actually approaching people and now to letting them reach out to touch him . actually he is really getting obnoxious  There is no reason for you to do things in a class setting that makes you uncomfortable. You have to be an advocate for you puppy. My trainer wanted me to release Hoolie on a recall.. I knew he would run off as he had been in "keep away"mode for a while and would not listen at all and he wasn't even really paying attention to me.. Too excited by the other dogs. we were in an unfenced area about a block from the highway. Talk with your trainer and explain how you feel and ask for some suggestions as to how to work with her to solve the problem. it might be that these classes aren't a good fit for you and your puppy. as was mentioned, remember not to reward Her undesired behavior with loves, or treats.. I'm sure things will work out. working with a more shy dog is always harder.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

If you picked a shy pup, then you'll need to work extra hard to socialize her with strange people and dogs. Reinforce bravery--any effort to investigate something scary on her part--but don't reinforce fear. I suggest you check out the dogstar daily for Ian Dunbar's tips on socializing a pup. 

Being comfortable with other people is an essential life skill for a dog, and this is your chance to help her with that. 

In class, you can and should make sure that other pups don't bully her (and a good instructor will make sure that doesn't happen), but other than that, this is your chance to introduce her to dogs and people.


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## murieics (May 10, 2009)

Tuffcookie said:


> Am I being a bad poodle mom for wanting to reassure her when she's scared?


Yes and no. I got Jake when he was three months old as well. Having flown across the country to get to me, he was exceedingly shy for the first several weeks. He bonded with me instantly, and slowly warmed up to the other people around us. Everyone else- not so much. We are taking our puppy classes at Petsmart. I was very concerned the few weeks before we started class- if I brought him in Petsmart and encouraged him to walk around, he would very quickly become anxious and want to be picked up. I would pick him up for a bit, then set him down. He has slowly gotten better. He rarely meets a stranger anymore (as long as I am around), and I think he would go with a stranger on a leash (as long as he could still see me). I know he still needs more work- and I work on exposing him to strangers on a regular basis. 

It is definitely a long process. I feel like you sort of walk a thin line with a puppy, especially at this age. You have to be careful not to coddle them, and to try to encourage them to find their independence, but at the same time, when they are seriously anxious about something, you have to make sure that you reassure them that it is ok. I feel like it's too easy to go one way or the other- to coddle so much you end up with a shy, timid, anxious dog or to have the "get over it" attitude to the extent that the dog learns that you won't protect them- and then you have a shy, anxious, timid dog that doesn't really trust you either.

I would say just keep working on it. Bring your puppy to places like Petco and Petsmart. Carry treats with you. When people ask to pet her, hand them a few treats and ask them to give her treats before they pet her. Soon, she will learn that strangers = treats, and she will become less and less timid. 

Good luck!


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## blkpudel (Jan 14, 2011)

*Be a tough cookie!*

Tough Cookie you have to be a tough cookie! 

You must protect your pup from bad experiences that may set her back even further, but you must allow her to experience that which she is afraid of. Don't pick her up because she'll be too big for that pretty soon. Have people ignore her and let her investigate them. Then maybe have them give her a treat or drop one on the floor. Get lots of friends, her kibble, a long line and play puppy recalls, pass the puppy, etc. Walk her around malls, on busy streets, ignore the bad behaviour and reward curiosity and braveness. Get her interested in toys and playing tug. 

By picking a shy pup you have your work cut out for you, but it can be done. My first standard was shy and rather soft but not that bad. As a first dog he was probably really good for me and he was a sweetheart. However, I can see now the difference between him and Rudy.

Rudy was shipped to me at 11 weeks and flew overnight from Portland, OR through to Atlanta, GA then to Buffalo, NY and I had to cross the border to get him. He came out of his crate bouncing with joy, tail up. His attitude, personality and temperament are the same now and rock solid.

Not to be mean, but why did you pick the shy pup? Is she genetically shy or just undersocialized?

Which brings to mind a question? Did you pick the pup? Did the breeder pick the pup for you? What did she say about the pup's temperament?


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## blkpudel (Jan 14, 2011)

*Winter pups*

I also want to add that winter pups are a pain in the a$$. You have to make triple the effort to socialize because people aren't outside like they are in the milder months. Also, it's dark early too.

When I got Rudy it was the end of January 2008 and one of the snowiest winters in years. He was an itty bitty thing and I dragged him everywhere that winter.

His crate was in the car whenever I did errands with blankets and duvets draped around it. There were more blankies in the crate too. Every time I finished my errands I took him out of his crate and walked him around. I gave people treats, had kids pet him and generally would hang around the doors of shops and malls so he could watch people go by, hear grocery buggies rattle, etc.

I did a lot of driving that winter!


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Blkpudel,

I picked her out. There were 2 pups left from her litter. The other one (also a female) was bouncing off the walls. I wanted a more mellow dog. We had a Lab that had to be put down in June due to cancer. He was just like the Marley in the movie!

I think I will start with trips to the pet stores and see how she does in there. 

Thanks for all your constructive criticism!


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## blkpudel (Jan 14, 2011)

*You can do it!*

See and I was the opposite! Started with a mellow dog, and now I've got a pocket rocket (although he's a saint in the house)!

You CAN do it! 

She will probably always be shy but you can really do a lot to help her become more confident. Just hanging out at busy places for 10 minutes or so will expose her to a lot. I would even walk to a car wash and stand outside. 

Generally garden centres, even in the winter will let you come in with a dog. Maybe places like Home Depot or other stores will let you in as well.

The 1st year is so very important.....


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## blkpudel (Jan 14, 2011)

*Marker or Clicker Training*

I also want to add that marker training could really help with this pup. 

When I have some time I will try and give you the names of a couple of books or DVDs.

In the meantime you should investigate clicker savvy and postive training facilities in your area.

Joining [email protected] is also a good idea. Not because you may do agility, but because a lot of the members are positive only and good at marker training. Some of them could help a lot with ideas and maybe even give you the names of some trainers in your area.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Mmm. I'm on the fence on this one. There is quite a problem with dog theft in the UK, especially with attractive breeds, and I don't particularly want Vasco to be comfortable going off with a stranger.

We do work on his walking with people he knows (my trainer, friends in the park), and he's fine, but I'm perfectly okay with him making a fuss going off with a complete stranger.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Just another note to add ....

I did spend quite a lot of time when he was young teaching him to eagerly approach people in uniform or a tabard. We left many police officers with greasy hands :smile:. Just as a safety thing ... if he's ever lost, I want him running happily up to anyone in a uniform.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I never thought of that, JE - although where we live it is so rural that a policeman on foot is a very rare bird indeed! I rather agree with you about "stranger danger" - I never leave them alone outside shops, or anything like that, but there is still a certain reassurance in knowing Poppy would scream the house down if anyone tried to steal her. I do need her to wait patiently with someone I have asked to hold her, though - any ideas on training that gratefully received. I think I shall have to prime practice dog holders with really good treats, and only go away for a few seconds at a time to begin with ... have you tried that with Gracie, Tuffcookie?


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

blkpudel said:


> I also want to add that marker training could really help with this pup.
> 
> When I have some time I will try and give you the names of a couple of books or DVDs.
> 
> ...



Hey Melissa!!! Welcome to the forum!! (Melissa's Rudy came from the same breeder that Vinnie came from).


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

AgilityIG said:


> Hey Melissa!!! Welcome to the forum!! (Melissa's Rudy came from the same breeder that Vinnie came from).


OFF TOPIC....I LOVE your new signature, AgilityIG!

Back on topic....A lot of good advice has been offered here, I just have this little tidbit to add. When my pup was very young, I had him stay overnight at a friend's house now and then just to accustom him to being away from us and with someone else. It nearly killed me; emotionally _I_ had a hard time being away from _him_, and the first few nights of his "sleepovers" he screeched for a_ long_ time in his crate so my friend was ready to kill _me_!) I worked very hard to social Chagall as a pup, I was also fortunate that he has a very outgoing, friendly, confident temperament thanks to his breeder. I just know you'll succeed with Gracie, Tuffie and I wish you well. Good for you for being open to suggestions (though sometimes it's tough!), it's obvious you want to do right by your poodle and I know you will.


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Update:

I took Gracie with me to Petco today. I took a bag of treats with me and paper towels & poopie bags!

She was wonderful! She loved the store and had no problem approaching people. I would give the people treats to give her but she would have gone up to them without the treats! I told the one clerk what I was told at puppy class and she thought Gracie was just fine!

She did not have one accident in the store! Even the automatic door did not seem to scare her. She was the perfect little lady!

I ended up buying a ton of stuff while there. I got a hard crate to keep in my car so I'm not having to carry the one in the kitchen back & forth, and a bunch of new toys and nylon bones. 

FYI, all their Christmas stuff is 75% off!

My church is having a ladies retreat at the end of next month. I am going to it with my daughter in law. I have located a kennel practically across the street from the retreat (Inn To Pets in Westlake, Oh). I am planning on kenneling her there for 1 night.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

First, it is generally not a good idea to pick a shy puppy, but that is water under the bridge. Second, comforting your dog when she is scared is perhaps the worst thing you can do in that situation. Finally, I agree with everyone's advice that you need to dtrt socializing your pup!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Sounds like you had a good experience at the pet store. Keep that up, take her to a variety of places where she can meet other dogs and lots of people. We take our mini to the park, the beach, the hardware store, outdoor restaurants and of course pet stores, too.

Something I noticed with Jager (who was not shy, but did go through a sort of shy period). When something startled him (a big truck going by, someone taking in the trash cans, etc.), I would just stand tall and stand still, keeping my body language very relaxed. I would not speak to him at all and would just let him check out whatever he was worried about. I kept thinking in my head (hoping it would translate to my body language) "ho hum, nothing to worry about here." 

He would invariably look at me to see my reaction. Then he'd look at the truck or whatever, then look at me, then back at the truck. Once he saw that I was not worried he would visibly relax. And chances were, the next time he saw that thing, he wouldn't be very worried about it.

Our dogs really look to us when deciding if something is scary or not. If we pick them up or crouch down or say "it's okay, it's okay" it just communicates to them "Yep, mom's worried, too, so this must be something to be afraid of."


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## blkpudel (Jan 14, 2011)

I am SO happy with your report! Keep up the good work!

Remember, that she has also been uprooted from all of her familiar things and the settling in process could be different for different puppies.

Just keep taking her to all kinds of places. Bravo for getting an extra crate. I had to do that too!

Once we get over the winter hump it will be a lot easier to take her out and about. Kids soccer games, baseball games, things happening in local parks etc. all are perfect opportunities for social experiences.

Good luck!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Sounds like excellent progress, Tuffcookie! May just have been some anxiety about a new place, new dogs, etc. at your class. The more strangers with treats the dog sees, the more it will be a happy thing.



fjm said:


> although where we live it is so rural that a policeman on foot is a very rare bird indeed!


I imposed on anyone in a tabard ... traffic wardens, postmen, lollipop ladies. I just want him to be comfortable going to someone in a uniform if he's ever lost. I can't imagine him getting lost, he's never out of sight, but because I have a dog walker I tried to think of extra ways to try to keep him safe.


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Well, tonight I am having my 2 grandkids for a sleep-over. Paul is 7 & Tabitha is 6. They don't have school tomorrow and I don't have work due to Martin Luther King Day. They have not seen her since Christmas Eve. At that time, when they and my oldest son and daughter-n-law came in the door and into the kitchen where she was, she ran into her crate! I chaulked that up to her being in a strange, new home. It will be good to see how she reacts this time.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Glad to hear your pet store outing went so well! I hope to hear the same about your grandchildren's visit. When Chagall was a puppy my VERY active then 5 year old granddaughter used to startle him at times with all her twirling around and dancing and tumbling (she's quite the little gymnast!). Then he realized how "low to the ground" she was and that she often had food in her hands; she fast became one of his favorite people.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Also, there's a lot more places you can take dogs into other than just Petso/Petsmart  I made some calls when I had Vegas as a puppy for uber socialization, here are someplaces I found allow dogs:

Home Depot
Lowes
Sportsmans Wearhouse
ACE supplies
Petco
Petsmart
Outdoor plant nurseries

Generally, if they're not selling food, I'd give a call ahead and ask if you can bring your dog in. Took Vegas and Vienna into Sportsmans the other day.. you'd think people just saw a giant green glowing bear walking through the store with the stares we got, rofl.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Those are all good ideas. Be a little careful with the outdoor plant nurseries, as some plants are toxic or have sharp thorns and such.

I took Casey to Home Depot a few times. He was scared witless the first time, was much better the 2nd time, and 3rd time it was like "ho hum, here we are again!"


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Chagall's mom, That is so cute about your granddaughter! Animals are not dumb! lol

Fluffyspoos, Thanks for the info! I had no idea Lowe's & Home Depot would accept dogs. I will call ahead before taking there.

I had the grandkids sit on the floor with puppy biscuits and call her to them. She knows a good thing! Although she was shy at first, it didn't take long for her to warm to them!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tuffcookie, it sounds like the pup is making great progress! Just keep it up.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds like she is learning fast!


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

Here is picture of Gracie with my 6 yr old granddaughter, Tabitha:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Cute picture. I would not let the kids and dogs be on the furniture together. I think it can confuse status between dogs and kids and it can lead to conflict. My advice... dogs on floor and kids furniture or kids visiting dogs on floor.


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

At my house, dogs are allowed on the furniture.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Tuffcookie said:


> At my house, dogs are allowed on the furniture.


I understand. However, when dogs get on the furniture with kids, there can sometimes be conflicts, especially when the kids don't live in the house full time. Dogs often resource guard their "place" on the furniture and will snap or even bite at children. I would hate to see one of your grandchildren get bitten.

Perhaps the rule could be..... dogs on furniture when it is just you at home but not on the furniture when the grandchildren visit.


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## Tuffcookie (Dec 22, 2010)

My previous experience with dogs (prior to a poodle) has been with Labs & a Shih Tzu.

I think it should be a cardinal rule never to leave small children & dogs together unsupervised. Even a Lab, as friendly as mine have been, can knock the wind out of a small child when just playing.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Tuffcookie, I want to tell you I just love that picture. Both Gracie and your granddaughter look perfectly content. Although someone is going to end up with a drool-covered sleeve in the near future! ;-)


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## clairythefairy88 (Dec 6, 2010)

not sure how your socialising her now, but when im out i always carry high value rewards along with standerd ones. (peices of hot dog or chicken)

if somebody wanted to pet noodles theyd have to give him a peice of chicken first, I praise him verbally when he takes it then its his choice whether he comes closer to them for a fuss. 

it worked really well he started off a little nervous and just taking his chicken but now he loves meeting new people


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

> Am I being a bad poodle mom for wanting to reassure her when she's scared


Absolutely not. That's old school thinking; there's nothing wrong with reassuring her. Rather than putting her on your lap, have her sit, talk to her calmly, maybe scratch her chin, etc. Your behavior will help convey to her that everything is ok. It's also perfectly normal for her to want to be with you rather than the class facillitator at this age. She's entering the "flight instinct" period. Like a teenager going through puberty, your puppy is changing physiologically. She will eventually gain confidence and not have a problem beiing handed over to someone else.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

Tuffcookie said:


> At my house, dogs are allowed on the furniture.


Mine, too, and they get off when told "OFF." It's how they learned to immediately move over when told (favorite spot or not), or they'd be made to get OFF. All 3 of mine love to snuggle with my grandkids, or anyone on the couch with them. Lucia, sweet thing, loves my spot on the sofa when I've got my pillows to prop me up when reading. The second I leave to get a drink or whatever, she moves into my spot! lol However, when I return, I don't even have to say anything - she gets up and waits for me to settle in, then snuggles up to me!

BTW, adorable pics - darling grandchild and poodle!


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