# Charlie Died



## fjm

I am so very sorry, Pinky. Poor little baby, after you tried so very, very hard. I am glad she was with people who cared at the end, so that you know everything possible was done. Goodnight, little Charlie. Sleep well till the morning comes for us all.


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## SnorPuddel

OMD - I am so verry sorry..


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Pinky....my heart goes out to you. I am so very sorry.

Please, lets not let this be the end of this saga. Take some time to regroup and lets do all we can to put the morons who sold you this sweet helpless soul out of business. 

Many thoughts and prayers. xoxoxo


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## 1Jurisdiva

Pinky - I'm so sorry to hear this, you really did everything you could to give that puppy a shot. I'll have you in my thoughts. Charlie is finally at peace. I agree with Arreau that once you've had time to process all of this sadness, I hope you can take it to the horrible people who made a puppy suffer so.


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## SnorPuddel

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Please, lets not let this be the end of this saga. Take some time to regroup and lets do all we can to put the morons who sold you this sweet helpless soul out of business.


She posted on the other thread that she will revisit that thread and use the advice to go after the people involved in this horrifying saga, such a strong young lady.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

SnorPuddel said:


> She posted on the other thread that she will revisit that thread and use the advice to go after the people involved in this horrifying saga, such a strong young lady.


Thanks...I just caught that. With a group as large as as passionate as this forum we should surely be able to make a difference.


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## KalaMama

So sorry Pinky. Thank you for caring for her while you could.


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## Poodle Lover

Pinky,

I am so deeply sorry for your loss. You've done everything that you could for Charlie and were a wonderful poodle mommy.



> Please, lets not let this be the end of this saga. Take some time to regroup and lets do all we can to put the morons who sold you this sweet helpless soul out of business.


I whole heartedly agree with this. We can't let them get away with this.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm sorry, Pinky. My heart goes out to you and your little brother. I'm sure that Charlie is now at the Rainbow Bridge playing happily with other pets that are well-loved. They will take care of little Charlie so don't worry about her. Take good care of yourself and whenever you are ready, go after those heartless people. Let us know if we can be of any help.


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## Marian

I'm so sorry, I can't even find words. Just know that you and your family are in my thoughts today. 

The ba$tards must be put out of business. It's just not right.


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## Trillium

I am truly sorry my thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## newspoomom

I too am SO very sorry. I cannot believe it. I am just sick over it. I wish I could just hug you right now. Please know we are all thinking of you today and praying for you and the sweet spirit of Charlie.


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## Skye

Pinky, my heart breaks for you, Charlie, and your family. Take your time to grieve, and know that everyone is here to help and support you.

And, I agree. This is not over. The people on this forum have amazed me! With all of the help you have given and research you have done.

Let's get this girl her money back, and help her find a healthy, happy puppy.

I am so sorry for what you have gone through, Pinky.

Peace.


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## FozziesMom

God pinky, I am so sorry. At least Charlie was with people who cared for her at the end. Poor thing. 

As others have said, she is over the rainbow bridge with all the other poodles, running and jumping and chasing each other and she will be there waiting for you some day. 

I am so angry I can hardly speak and tears have run down my cheeks. 

Do we know the names of these people so we can refer to them in threads so this forum will come up when people search on them?


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## fjm

I was thinking just the same thing FozziesMom - perhaps a new thread with a descriptive title?


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## calidani

I am so very sorry about your loss. I was praying so hard that she would make it.

I will keep you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.



Danielle


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## bigpoodleperson

So heartbreaking, and such a beautiful young little life lost. May your wonderful memories of her get you through this difficult time. RIP Charlie, and know you were loved if for even such a brief time in your too short life.


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## KalaMama

What about a petition against the online broker to try and get Pinky's money back? I don't know how it would be worded but it might could put some pressure on them.


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## BFF

Pinky, I am so very sorry for your loss. :crying:

In the beginning you were so unsure what this whole experience of being a poodle Mommy would be like. You kept asking questions, learning, and preparing for your little sweetheart. I remember how grossed out you were, and yet you pulled yourself together and gave this little girl the best days of her life.

For the first time, she was held with love, heard soft tender words spoken just for her, and you cared for her like no other. It shouldn't have been this hard, and yet you did whatever you could to make her comfortable.

I'm so very impressed with how much you extended yourself beyond your comfort zone to bring little Charlie the best of care. I don't think there was anything any of us could have done to save her. She was too sick from the environment she came from.

My prayers are with you and your family. Little Charlie is smiling down, free of pain, and very thankful for the love she was given if only for a few days.

You have found a very caring group of people who will be here to support you. Many people don't understand how the loss of a pet can be so devastating because they have never been so touched with the love of a beloved companion. Don't be surprised if someone tells you to "Just get over it." Kindly smile because they mean well, but they don't understand. You are welcome to stay here with us and share in our joy of our companions while you take time to regroup. It's great therapy. It's what I did when I lost my last little girl.

God bless you!


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## ziggylu

Oh, no!  I"m sorry to read this news, Pinky. I'm sorry for you and your family to go through this loss. As others mentioned I hope you can find some comfort in knowing that because of you Charlie knew love before she left.

Godspeed, Charlie


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## SECRETO

I had a horrible feeling this was what Id read this morning. Im soo sorry for your loss. Like everyone said, she's in a good place now and not suffering.

I really hope you get your money back and the people that have done this are brought to justice. No animal or person should have to experience anything like this.


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## Littleknitwit

So sorry to hear this... I cannot believe this whole thing. Although the puppy mill thing was bad from the beginning, I really thought it would turn out fine... MAN this sucks. I would do anything I could to help as well to get Jess's money back. I agree that she needs a healthy puppy (when the time is right)... having dogs is one of the most amazing things and this first experience was so unfair.

You were a good dog mama! Hang in there!


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## faerie

i am so dismayed for you. i am so very sorry for your loss. how tragic.

sending you many hugs. i hope you get justice for charly.


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## Karma'sACat

Pinky I am so so sorry. My heart is broken for you. Charlie was met at the Rainbow Bridge by many special pets who have already passed and she is happy and pain free now. 
RIP Charlie


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## partial2poodles

I never really knew you or little Chrlie but I am heartbroken and sick at my stomach. I feel like it was my puppy it was happening too....I think we all do. We all got so involved in this heart-wrenching story...so sorry to have it end this way. I would love to see you have a new puppy....if anyone knows anybody breeding, I for one would pitch in to buy Pinky a real poodle, possibly one locally in her area so no shipping is involved.


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## furmom

Pinky, I'm so sad for you and your family.


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## apoodleaday

So sorry that what should have been an exciting and joyous time turned out to be such a tragedy for you and for Charlie. 
Thank you for doing your very best by Charlie. Even though it was a short time, I'm glad she got to feel human love and care before she passed on.
My heart goes out to you and your family.
RIP little Charlie.


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## pudlemom

So sorry for your loss sending thoughts and prayers your way:hug: Charlie is now in a peace over the:rainbow:bridge

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge. 
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind. 
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster. 

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart. 

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....


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## Jessie's Mom

i'm in tears - i don't even know what to say. i feel your pain, pinky. i'm on my way to church and just decided to check the board again. i'm sick...i know we all are...we are here for you, whatever that means to you. i am totally on board for going after these b ------ds who did this....greed is a voluminous sin. for the love of money and not of life, this person, these people, devastated a young woman and her entire family AND a countless number of people, INTERNATIONALLY. 

pinky, i am so sorry. you are an amazing mom. maybe charlie was your angel to show you, you could do this. she completed her task and moved on. heal, sweetheat, take the time to heal. look @ it this way, if charlie didn't come to you, she may've had her last hours NEVER FEELING THE LOVE YOU GAVE HER. she would've died in some overcrowded cage somewhere, and maybe not even be discovered right away. yes, maybe she was your angel to teach you something about yourself, but you were her angel too.

i'm sorry...good thing i have to leave for church or i think i would just keep writing....

please, Forum, what can we do to let this all not be in vain??? i am totally on board.


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## Pinky

Thanks guys. She is being cremated but I guess I'll take a little bit to get her ashes 

The STUPID Pure Bred Breeders company called me today..I am so livid. When I called them after my credit card said to they told me they needed my vet to send them the check up stuff which was required anyway to keep the guarantee. The original vet (Banfield) called this morning to ask how Charlie is since I took her out yesterday. I told them she died and I needed the vet to fax that stupid to those a holes bc today is the last day they can receive it for them to keep my "guarantee" and so they did..my friend came over and I'm in the middle of talking to her, crying my eyes out and Pure Bred Breeders calls me saying they received the vet's stuff and an autopsy is needed bc according to Banfield's reports I declined bloodwork and IV fluids and they told me to take her to an emergency clinic...none of that is true! I was the one that had to ask THEM about bloodwork after reading someone suggesting that on my other thread bc all they were doing was taking parvo tests and when they told me the price I said I couldn't afford it at this point I had already spent over $600 within 24 hours. So I took her to another clinic and had them do bloodwork immediately..which by the way at this vet I didn't even have to suggest doing bloodwork, he took one look at her and noticed that the parvo tests had come back negative and said that's what needed to be done next. I think Banfield is mad at me for taking her out of their clinic but wtf, they weren't doing anything for her. And I NEVER declined an IV..I think they're referring to her being taken out so they had to take the IV out obviously bc I was taking her to another vet. Banfield was so rude to me when I picked her up, they just gave her to me along with a bag with her IV in it and didn't say anything to me about the IV. I had to ask the check in lady who told me that I paid for a full day of IV so that's why they were giving it to me and to have the other vet hook her up to it..but the vet I took her to didn't want her on that bc I think he said it was too strong for her or something like that. And Banfield put in their notes that I didn't take off her bandage (from day one - took her in the next morning) and her leg was swollen  I felt sooo horrible. The stupid vet didn't tell me I had to take the bandage off, I really didn't know! I told them numerous times that this was my first dog and I didn't know what I was doing. The nerve of them to put that in their notes. So Pure Bred Breeders is pretty much trying to put Charlie's death on me which I know is just for the money but screw the money, a tiny, defenseless, innocent puppy DIED and now they're trying to say it's MY fault. I'm crying the whole time I'm talking to her bc my PUPPY just died and I'm looking at her little playpen and my heart is breaking and she's telling me in not so many words that I'm to blame and they need an autopsy (that I need to pay for) for them to be able to replace my puppy..are you kidding me? Why in the world would I want another puppy from them? To which she replied "It would be from a different breeder" yeah ok, I want NOTHING to do with these monsters. She was very clear that I will not be getting my money back, said it's in the contract which is a legal document and yada yada and I'm responsible for the vet bills. I don't understand how these people have no effing souls. Money is just money..like who cares about the stupid money I had to watch my puppy slowly die and it is so heartbreaking and now they're trying to blame ME? Bc according to the vet the breeder took Charlie to she was fine..she said now they're going to talk to their (Pure Bred Breeders) vet to see what can be done..yeah, I know what's going to be done. I'm getting screwed. Between the cost of Charlie, vet bills, cremating her, her food, and just everything I bought for her I'm out 3 grand. They should be responsible for paying everything back but they're not - obviously they're used to doing this over and over again or they wouldn't still be in business. And even if they did have a heart and paid for it as now I have no idea how I'm going to pay my tuition or books since I spent all my money on trying to save Charlie that still wouldn't bring her back. They will NEVER be able to repay me for watching Charlie die, hearing her cry and puke and look so miserable. They can't pay me for my heartbreak. My friends think I should still try to fight them bc obviously all they care about is money so the only way to "hurt" them is to make them pay up but I think I'm pretty screwed. I still have to go over the links and advice you guys posted so I'll try to do that later. I have the vet's name, address, phone number as well as the breeder's...if it's even a good number and I'm not above posting it on here and having everyone I know send letters to that heartless bitch. Think I can do that without getting in legal trouble? Sounds kind of ridiculous that I could get in trouble considering all she's put me through but especially my poor Charlie. She deserved better and I feel so bad for my little baby.


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## Teffy

I am so sorry.


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## Olie

This is truly a tragic experience for this poor pup and your family. All people do not realize how instant the love is from the moment you meet these sweethearts. I cannot begin to imagine your pain, sadness and pure anger you must be feeling all at one time over this ordeal. 

I hope your able to re-coop some funds so you can continue the goal of fulfilling your heart with a poodle, they are wonderful dogs and friends. Nothing will ever replace Charlie but you will love again, maybe even more - time heals all wounds. There was nothing more you could have done, and you my friend did more than many would have - some people look as a sick dog as a loss and you didn't you continued your quest to help him. 

I am sorry your experience took you to this, but I know how much you have learned from it, and I cannot wait for the day your heart is filled with a special poodle. 

Continue to fight and share this experience, too many poor dogs and owners have endured this pain because of this sick puppy millers. I agree with you, they have been down this road enough to know how to dodge you on this. 

I am certain there are great breeders on here that would love to help you get a poodle. 

Thoughts and prayers for you all.


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## Marian

You still have recourse through the credit card company. I'm also thinking it wouldn't hurt to speak to someone at the Humane Society of the US about what you can do to get the additional money you spent trying to save her back from the scumbags too. They might have lawyers who would take your case pro bono just to be able to gather more evidence against the puppy brokers and mills.

I don't know for certain that they do, but a phone call wouldn't hurt.


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## pudel luv

Charlie must have been a guardian angel in disguise ...

reminding us all how important it is to LOVE and CHERISH every moment 
with those we hold so dear: Family, Friends and our Fur Babies.

Pinky, you gave more love to Charlie than many receive in a lifetime. 
Charlie surely felt all the love coming her way from you, your family and
the wider Poodle Family that you are now a part of. May the power of 
positive thoughts coming your way bring you healing and peace.


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## spoosrule

I'm so sorry you've head to go through this. This whole situation makes me sick. I will just never understand people who can do things like this to poor innocent animals and the people who love them.


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## Poodlelvr

God bless you, Pinky. Keep fighting through the credit card company. I think that is your best recourse.


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## Rosary94

So sorry to hear about your loss, Pinky. Charlie passed on with an awesome mom fighting for her every single step of the way. Props to your friend's uncle for trying to save Charlie. 

Don't let these a-holes of "breeders" and "vets" play the blame game on you. Like Marian wrote before, maybe you can contact an pet law lawyer to plead a case for you pro-bono.

That witch from Pure Bred Breeders is definitely getting a really hot seat in Hell.


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## partial2poodles

I just went on Purebred Breeders - America's Top Dog Breeders on PurebredBreeders.com and only went to their GUARANTEE page. [email protected] crap guarantee that gets them off the hook. If you did everything they require then the puppy would be in even worse shape.


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## Marian

Just looking at the "Testimonials" page on that site. I'm not a big fan of Rosie O'Donnell, but I find it hard to believe that she would buy a puppy from these people. I wish there was a way to contact her and Miley Cyrus and find out if Purebredbreeders had permission to use their images and (what I assume to be) fake "testimonial".

ETA: Interesting...just looked again and noticed that it only says “Rosie O'Donnell and her new puppy, Missy.” - not that she got it from them. Ditto for Miley Cyrus.


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## Olie

Sorry I didn't read every post - are they NOT going to help you out?


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## Littleknitwit

Marian said:


> Just looking at the "Testimonials" page on that site. I'm not a big fan of Rosie O'Donnell, but I find it hard to believe that she would buy a puppy from these people. I wish there was a way to contact her and Miley Cyrus and find out if Purebredbreeders had permission to use their images and (what I assume to be) fake "testimonial".
> 
> ETA: Interesting...just looked again and noticed that it only says “Rosie O'Donnell and her new puppy, Missy.” - not that she got it from them. Ditto for Miley Cyrus.



This is what I was talking about on the other thread... Rosie O'Donnell is such an activist in other ways and I also highly doubt she would buy a puppy from there...she should have them take that crap off!


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## schnauzerpoodle

I am so sorry, Pinky. And I am so angry. What these people are doing is just wrong. WRONG. Can you ask the 2nd vet to fax in his medical notes too?


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## spoospirit

_Pinky, I am so very sorry to hear about Charlie. She sure did give it her best fight and you gave her everything you could. God bless you for loving her so much and being selfless in caring for her. 

She is at peace now and will never know suffering again. When you are feeling better, think about all the love the two of you shared in the little time you had together. You will smile at the thought that she is over the Rainbow Bridge being the happy, healthy dog she was meant to be.

I lost a poodle puppy due to an accident last year and know how painful it is to say goodbye and my heart is 100% with you. It is a crime that you and she had to go through this due to neglect on the part of the breeder.

Please don't give up on getting your money back and doing whatever you can to expose them for the heartless monsters they are. 

You and your family will continue to be in my thoughts and, again, if I can do anything to help, please let me know. I don't see any reason why this breeder and vet who gave her a clean bill of health shouldn't be inundated with letters regarding this horrible saga.
_


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## LEUllman

Pinky, yours is truly one of the most heartbreaking stories imaginable. I am so sorry for your loss.

I doubt if it make you feel any better, but you should know that this is NOT an isolated incident. Google "purebred breeders LLC," with the quotes, and you'll see site after site filled with complaints. Here are a few examples:

complaintsboard.com

ripoffreport.com

iripoff.com Purebred_Breeders_LLC

And this is not limited to poodles - oh no. Google the phone number, 800-241-3838. You will see literally hundreds of different web sites offering just about every breed, in every state, and with all kinds of different names. This is an internet scam on a massive scale.

Pinky, I know you need to grieve now, and achieve what closure you can. But once you get past that stage, I hope you will get mad -- really mad -- and then get even by helping to close down these hideous puppy mill brokers so no one else ever needs to go through the hell you just did.

This is a case where the local media are your friend. I urge you to contact your local newspaper and TV station. Talk to a reporter; tell your story. Send them the link to your threads on this forum, the links I've included above, and the picture at the top of this thread. I'm a journalist, and I can assure you, this story will get their attention. There are laws against what these fiends are doing, in more than one state, and your story is very compelling. If you can get the media to shine some light on this nationwide scam, Charlie's story -- and your own -- will not be in vain.


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## jester's mom

I am so, so, very sorry, Pinky! My sister, Deb (Spoospirit) told me about your situation today when we went out. I am so very sorry to read that your dear little girl died. I am so sorry that your first experience with a puppy was like this. You expected to have a joyous and loving time with your new friend and instead went through the worst experience! This whole thing makes me sooo sad and very angry.

I agree, you need to grieve and get through that part of it, but after, with the help of other animal lovers, you can help put their sorry a$$es out of business!!!! I hope that poor, sweet Charlie's short life helps out some other poor dogs/pups in the knowledge that we all have because of what happened! I think she was with you for a reason, even though it was so short and so sad. And, DON'T let those scumbags make you feel, IN ANY WAY, that you failed Charlie or any of this was your fault!!! That is their game and they know how to play it. The only thing you did was give that sweet little girl some love that she would never have known otherwise. You were her angel and you were the one that truly cared for her!

I would like it if you could PM me the info on the vet that "supposedly" gave her her exam of "good health". Also, could you send me the info on the particular breeder she came from. I don't think there would be anything wrong with you posting the info as you DID have dealings with them and you have a right to say if you thought they were good or bad to deal with. But, in case you feel it best, you can PM me the info.

I hope that you are able to get back some or all of the money you put into Charlie, I know that is not the issue that is uppermost in your mind, but they need to make it right. I so wish it was easier to get these disgusting places CLOSED DOWN! It is not only Charlie that I am thinking of, but her parents and all the other poor, abused parent dogs (and the pups that don't make it to the "market") that have to live a disgusting, painful life as puppy making machines!!! 

My heart goes out to you, your family, poor Charlie, and all the people who get pulled into their lies and the poor dogs/pups that suffer. I hope your fullness of love for Charlie and your sharing her with us helps to overcome some of this.


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## Pinky

Thanks for all of the kind words. I am such an emotional wreck  These stupid Pure Bred Breeders are really messing with my head - they're making it sound like it's my fault. These are their stupid e-mails:

Hi Jessica,

I have attached the records from Banfield the pet Hospital to this email for you. On Page 5/17 exam on 7/31 Assessment: it says to rule out kennel cough & dehydration. Owner declines blood work due to finances.
on page 6/17. Owner declines to seek care elsewhere. They faxed your records to Santis pet clinic. On page 12/17 was the initial exam after the puppy had diarrhea and vomiting for 2 days. The puppy was 1.6 pounds and had not been eating or drinking since you received her. 
Page 14/17. The puppies Glucose was extremely low, this indicates that the Nutrical was not given or given often enough. 
Page 17/17: owner Declines Clavamox (antibiotic) treatment

I am trying to understand what happen to the puppy so I can put your guarantee in effect.

And then she sent this one:

HI Jessica,

I have attached the records from Santis veterinary clinic so that you can review them. In the records there is no diagnosis. According to the records this was not a emergency clinic and they did recommend a 24 clinic take care of the puppy. They disconnected the puppy from fluids and medication since there would not be anyone on staff. The puppy was found deceased when they arrived in the AM. When I called the clinic and spoke to Melissa she did say that they will hold the body for me so we can get a necropsy done maybe on Monday. I am going to send all of the information to the breeder and the breeders doctor for review. We also have a doctor on staff that will be reviewing this case. I will get back to you once all of the information has been processed. Thank you for your time & patience.

Both of which are bull. I NEVER declined blood work, after I suggested it to the vet and got the price for it I said I couldn't afford it. I found somewhere that I could afford it and took her there immediately and got it done, as those records show. I've read over the reports like ten times and I don't see where it says "owner declines to seek care elsewhere" as Banfield never even suggested I seek other care, I decided to take Charlie out bc I needed more to be done for her than what I could afford through Banfield as they were charging me an arm and a leg for EVERYTHING. And the not eating or drinking thing..yeah, obviously that's why I took her to the vet! It's not like I didn't feed her. I tried feeding her all day! She ate a little bit at night, but not much. They're making it sound like I starved her when I bought her 4 different types of food trying to get her to eat. I resorted to syringe feeding the second day after a vet tech told me to do so..but before that I didn't even know I could do such a thing. This was my first puppy EVER how was I supposed to just know this? They're trying to put Charlie's blood on my hands and that hurts the most right now bc I loved her so much. Why would I spend over a grand within 24 hours on her if I didn't care about her wellbeing? How can they try to make me look like a neglectful owner when I did the best I could and I'm mourning my pet right now? They're such jerks! Yes, her glucose was low bc she wasn't eating. At this point she had been taking her Nutri Cal. Day 2 she wouldn't even lick that off anymore, but when I first took her in she had been taking it but a supplement isn't going to make up for her not eating. A holes. They can't tell me I didn't give it to her when I did. I even woke up in the middle of the night to give it to her. And the Clamavox antibiotic I declined was bc when I called to check on Charlie the vet told me they had done extra stuff that brought my total way up..I just couldn't afford it. I asked what we could take out and she suggested the Clamavox bc she said it wasn't medically necessary but the other stuff they were doing was. Way to make me feel like I failed my puppy.

As for the second e-mail, it's lies. I read the report and that is NOT what it says. It says I was concerned about it not being 24 hours but they said someone would be there until after 11 pm and IF I wanted 24 hour I would have to go to an Emergency Clinic which I declined, it does NOT say they suggested I take her there. I declined bc she told me it would be super expensive, which I imagined it would be and the whole reason I went there was bc I was out of money and I didn't want to move Charlie again..I mean, she already looked on the brink of death I didn't want to have her IV taken out again. Plus, I trusted this clinic bc it's owned by my friend's uncle. I figured this was the best possible place for her and they assured me their pets are well taken care of. It even says in the report that they stayed past the time they usually do with her but it does say that they disconnected her IV since no one would be there and she was dead when they arrived this morning - this was news to me, my friend said that she died with the vet there. She must have misunderstood. I feel so bad for her that she died alone. Poor thing probably was scared and feeling unloved. I shouldn't have been so selfish, I should have just put her to sleep so I had been there with her when she died. It breaks my heart that this happened to her. She deserved better. And I feel so guilty right now. Am I being overly sensitive or don't her e-mails sound like they're blaming my lack of finances for her death? I put all of my money into taking care of her. I did the best I could but I'm not a freakin millionaire. I did the best I could for her and even when they told me I should consider putting her down I took the more expensive route of having her hospitalized just to give her a chance bc I HONESTLY thought she would pull through. I feel awful. I feel like if I had more money she would have survived. The only stuff I declined I was told by the vet that it wasn't necessary, it's not like I denied her being hospitalized and being given an IV. I loved Charlie and I would have taken the pain for her if I could have. I couldn't afford a 24 hour clinic for her and they're making me sound like I'm to blame for her death. I called the vet and told her this and she said none of these things really matter bc she ARRIVED sick. Something for a runny nose (I think that's what that antibiotic is for) wasn't going to keep her alive. Reading over this do you guys think I'm the one to blame? I know with them it's just about money but f*ck the money - who cares about that - a living creature is no longer living, I'm grieving and now they're making it sound like I'm to blame. It's sooo wrong. Do you guys think they're right? Is it my fault? I honestly did the best I could do for her. I did more for her than I would have for myself if I had been that sick. I feel horrible, not only for losing my baby but now bc they're making me feel guilty for her death. Reading over this and the real reasons behind everything do you think I still have a case against them?


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## Marian

Yes, you have a case. Stop beating yourself up. These people are so rehearsed with this stuff, they spout lies without even thinking about it.

You did nothing wrong. You don't get a healthy puppy who dies within 72 hours of receiving it. It just doesn't happen unless the dog was seriously ill before it arrived--which means it was NOT healthy and makes their "vet" report fraudulent. Think about it logically--your friend's uncle said that all of her organs were failing. That does not suddenly happen for no reason or because the dog didn't eat for a day. 

So please, please, please, stop blaming yourself. You're falling for their lies.


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## 1Jurisdiva

Pinky - you know from my PM that I am a straight talker - and I would not say something that wasn't true. Here is what I think: 

You made one mistake - that was choosing this broker. 

EVERYTHING you did after you took her into your care was absolutely right. You did not make her sick, nor did you deny her treatment, or in any way exacerbate her illness. I suspect the puppy was already in extremely serious condition when she was shipped. If you read the complaints in the consumer report links that were posted by another member you would see that Charlie is not the first puppy to be sent in such bad condition - there was another owner saying their puppy had to be put to sleep within 3 days of arrival. You did not cause her illness in anyway, and I'm sure she appreciated finally having the care she deserved in her last days.

They are going to say and do everything they can to make you feel like this was an error on your part solely to discourage you from challenging their practice. If you allow them to bully you into self doubt then you are allowing them to win.


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## Pinky

You guys have been brutally honest with me since the beginning which is why I figured I'd ask you guys as my friends aren't going to say "Yes, it's your fault" when I'm crying in front of them. It makes me feel better that at least you don't think it's my fault. I know it's them trying to bully me, but it hurts. It's so cruel to do to a grieving person. Grief THEY inflicted. I forwarded all the e-mails to an older and much wiser friend of mine that's going to call them on my behalf. She's good with dealing with this kind of crap and not allowing people to be taken advantage of so she's going to try to handle it for me as I'm just too emotional to talk to them. I was sobbing when I was talking Pure Bred Breeders and I didn't get as much as a sorry from them, just "we heard she didn't make it" - bastards!


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## Jessie's Mom

first, like i said, i worked for vet for 8 years. we NEVER disconnected iv fluids during the night just b/c no on was there. that is BS.

ok - move on, charlie is gone. we have to let her lie. but not in vain. call the credit card company. make the complaint. i don't see any reason for you to have to be @ the mercy of these satanic people and wait for them to "put your guarantee" into effect = ARE THEY KIDDING ME ????? your credit card company will delay payment to them or RETRACT, yes i said RETRACT payment until the case is decided. i know - i went this route - not with a puppy - but that doesn't matter - the credit card laws are the laws and if a consumer was frauded by a vendor they need to be protected. the trick with the credit card company is to have all your facts straight and all your backup. write the letters, send them the paperwork and BE PERSISTENT. ANYTHING THEY WANT, SEND IT. trust me, these bastards don't have time for this - they want to push puppies, not pens. if they inasmuch NOT ANSWER THE CREDIT CARD COMPANY QUERIES, YOU WIN!!

ok, that was issue one. issue two, shut these suckers down. shut down the greedy breeders (i hate even calling them that) that they deal with. call the tv stations, call the newspapers, here in ny we have "7 on your side", or help me howard, etc. all advocates of consumer rights. they would LOVE to get their hands in this story. 

jess, i know this is easy for us to say & harder for you to do. seems unfair the person feeling the most pain has to do the most work. you know what, jess??? let that pain be your motivation. HOW DARE THEY DO THIS TO YOU OR ANYONE EVER EVER EVER AGAIN. and the puppies - these puppy mills and these brokers should be put in a cage with some vicious dogs, or worse, in a cage with some of the people on this forum. yes, that would be a sight i would pay to see.........


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## Jessie's Mom

you are rightfully emotional right now - that is why they are able to get to you. they are satanic - don't you get it???? do you think they care about you or your puppy - no they care about money - & that's all. i'm glad you have someone going to bat for you, too. it may be a good idea to let her read all the posts from the amazing people on this forum who have come up with some incredible ideas. suggest this to your friend. it may be more fuel on her already burning fire.

YOU are going to be ok. and YOU have proved yourself to be an amazing poodle mom. you pm'd ME when i was upset about that clown and his daughter. YOU and all the people here helped ME feel better. now it is your turn to believe in what is being told to you. jesssss.....cut yourself some slack, give yourself a hug...you so deserve it - & know that hug is from all of us.


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## Pinky

I'm trying really hard not to feel so guilty, but it's hard. My poor baby 

For those of you not on facebook here's a link to the album I just posted of Charlie. There aren't many pics as she was sick from the get go and I didn't want to take pics of her looking sick. My poor baby 

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=17054&id=100000743952621&l=3be5333f5e


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## schnauzerpoodle

Jess, don't let them make you feel that you are the one at fault. Like 1Jurisdiva said, you did one thing wrong and that's buying a puppy from a broker. BUT you have tried your very best after you received Charlie. I can tell from our exchange of PM's that you were trying your best to learn and you were willing to listen to our advices. Let me say this again: Don't let them make you feel you are responsible for Charlie's sufferings. They have no right to do that to you.

Have you been eating these days? Promise us you would at least eat and try to get some sleep, okay? I'm sorry that your first puppy experience is a terrible one. It's not supposed to be like this. Please know that we are all very supportive here. Let us know how we can help. I'm sure none of us is willing to see another puppy and any other puppy owner go through something like this.

This whole thing is wrong. From my other posts, you know that my husband was not an animal person and now he's in love with Nickel. He never had any feelings for animals and yet he said, "Even I got very angry. How can they do this to those puppies? We have to do something."

So Jess, too bad that there are these heartless people around BUT there are people who truly care about dogs. Whenever you are ready, let us know and I'm sure we can help you find a healthy and even-tempered puppy.


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## penny_ann

Oh Pinky! I am so sorry you had to go through this as your first puppy experience. Thankfully, you have had the support of family and friends, including this forum. Be sure to take care of yourself and try not to blame yourself. Obviously, Charlie was very sick and you did the best you could.


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## Margotsmom

Pinky - Charlie had brothers and sisters, and parents, you have to tell their story to others on THEIR behalf. Also, you have mentioned the Kardashians a couple of times. You need to let THEM know. You relied on them and they have either been deceived and need to know, or they don't care and did this for money and need to know.


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## yigcenuren

Pinky I feel so sad for you, but my suggestion is use your grief! Turn it into anger to help motivate you to do what is needed to go after these guys!!
It sounds as though there are several people here who have first hand experience dealing with fraud. PM them and get their help.

Also, anyone else on this forum who belongs to any other dog forums of any kind. You should post a thread talking about what has happened to Pinky with links so that they can read it for themselves. A VERY sad but also VALUABLE lesson and warning about this mill/broker and website.

Now between thinking about poor Charlie and looking at some of the SPCA cruelty videos about factory farms (believe it or not MUCH worse than puppy mills) I keep crying and can't sleep. If we can shut even one of these places down it WILL make a difference.


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## Pinky

I don't understand HOW they're still in business. Obviously there's retards like me that inadvertently purchase from them, but how is this even LEGAL? It's just not right. I found the scam thing that our local news channel does and I e-mailed them but maybe you guys should e-mail them too so they are more inclined to air this? Here's the link:

Contact 3 On Your Side | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | 3 On Your Side

and if you PM me I'll give you my phone number as that needs to be included in the e-mail for them to contact me. 

I've already disputed the charge for Charlie through my credit card, but the vet bills I think I would need to do with Pure Bred Breeders which I'm sure are going to bs their way out of it. I just want this place to be shut down. These poor puppies can't continue to live like this. Yes, it's horrible for us to have to go through this heartbreak but the poor puppies are the ones that are sick and dying. It's effing disgusting. I hope those bastards burn in hell. They should be ashamed of themselves for partaking in something so evil.


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## fjm

From what I have read about the huge puppy mill industry in Oklahoma, pups are collected from the breeder and transported to the airport in the very early morning - this tiny one could have been in transit for 15 hours or more - and Jess says she had to pay a kenneling fee to cover this extra time. With no individual identification, a vet's report is down to the honesty of the breeder in presenting the right puppy and not substituting a healthy pup for the examination, and to whether the examining vet is prepared to put the needs of the puppy and her new owner ahead of those of the regular paying customer in his office - ethics, in other words.

To take just two examples from the so-called health testing - the form says the puppy's ears were clear - the first vet to examine her after arrival says they were infected. The form says the feces were OK - the vet says she had worms. Neither of these alone are life threatening, but they indicate that the rest of the report may be equally worthless. I find it hard to believe that she ever weighed 2 pounds, especially as this seems to be the minimum weight the more reputable shippers will handle.

The "guarantee" is just one long get out clause. so lets not go there. In the UK it would be designated an unfair contract, and would be unenforceable.

A pup - even a tiny pup - does not go from healthy to life support that fast, when she has had access to food and water. A healthy pup will eat what she needs to survive, even if it is not particularly palatable. A healthy pup would bounce back from mild dehydration or hypoglycaemia with treatment. This was a puppy with pre-existing health conditions, no doubt exacerbated by the stress of shipping and a new environment. She only ever had a very tiny chance of surviving, and you did everything you could for her. Of course they are trying to confuse you, and make you feel guilty - they know that we all, always, feel that there must have bbeen something more we could have done, or something we should have done differently. If they were genuinely concerned about the puppy, their so-called guarantee would agree to pay all vet bills for the first few weeks - or pups would be sold with free insurance for the first few months, as reputable breeders do. Any breeder who can will provide free insurance - the only reason I can see for not doing so is that no insurance company wants to take on a breeder whose pups are known to be unhealthy, and a poor risk. 

You did your best for her, Jess, and did far, far more for her than her breeder or the broker ever did.


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## JE-UK

Pinky, please let CAPS know of your experience; they track puppy mill operations:

CAPS Complaint Form - Pet Purchase Complaint Form - Internet & Store

As others have suggested, spend your energy on working with your credit card issuer to get a refund, and publicising the experience you have had with local media. 

As for the seller, I would continue to repeat, repeat, repeat "you sold me a sick puppy, I am out of pocket, I want a refund and reimbursement". Send them any information they ask for, but don't get into an argument about the details of the contract and whether or not you met their criteria for a refund. Let them know you are contacting local media to publicise your experience with them. If you get sucked into an argument with them about how the specifics of the vet treatment apply to their guarantee, you will just frustrate yourself. Your experience so far seems to indicate they are happy to misconstrue events in order to avoid honoring the guarantee.

Their website advertises "PurebredBreeders.com is able to provide home-raised, well-socialized, healthy puppies from highly respected and responsible dog breeders. From our homes to your home ... the puppy of your dreams is waiting for you! "

At a minimum, that is false advertising. Your puppy was not healthy, not from a responsible dog breeder, and certainly wasn't the puppy of your dreams.

Best of luck.


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## Jessie's Mom

Pinky said:


> I found the scam thing that our local news channel does and I e-mailed them but maybe you guys should e-mail them too so they are more inclined to air this? Here's the link:
> 
> jess, did you already contact them? how can we help build your case? did they give you a verification # of anything?
> 
> ann marie


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## Chagall's mom

Dear Pinky, I just read about Charlie and my heart is broken for you, and her. I think you're AMAZING to be such a devoted and strong champion for your dear little poodle pup. Though you had her so briefly, the strength of your love for her is clearly evident. You did EVERYTHING humanly possible and she was lucky to land in your loving hands. Her life was tragically short, but her story is incredibly powerful and will change the world. I just know you will spearhead a campaign to see justice is done in her name. You are not alone in your devastating sorrow, or your crusade on Charlie's behalf. We're all with you, all the way. Hugs to you dear girl. I am so, so sorry for how things turned out!


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## spoospirit

Jessie's Mom said:


> Pinky said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found the scam thing that our local news channel does and I e-mailed them but maybe you guys should e-mail them too so they are more inclined to air this? Here's the link:
> 
> jess, did you already contact them? how can we help build your case? did they give you a verification # of anything?
> 
> ann marie
> 
> 
> 
> _Opps...I think you forgot the link?_
Click to expand...


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## spoospirit

_Pinky, I know you are young and inexperienced but that DOES NOT mean that you are wrong or did anything wrong. It just doesn't happen that a healthy puppy is shipped one day and three days later is critical and passes on. STOP DOUBTING YOURSELF. If you bring doubt to your fight, you will loose credibility. It must be very difficult for you with such little life experience but you will grow immensely from this experience and you will make a difference to countless lives both animals and humans.

Get someone to help you work through the grief and then help you put together all of your FACTS. As was mentioned, do not get into an argument with any of those involved in the case. Just the facts mam! and what this has done to you and Charlie. 

I have found by experience, if you give them any more than that, they WILL twist what you say around and use it against you. The most innocent sounding thing you say can become a smoking gun for them. You will need to be very savvy and you need to have someone (maybe the person you mentioned earlier) who is strong, experienced, level-headed and that you trust to help you through this.

It would be good for someone to sit down and chronicle what happened with all of the documentation you have from the time you bought Charlie. Make notes to self if you need to. This will help you put the whole picture into perspective so that you can present it without emotional confusion or jumping from one point to the other. You don't want to loose the agencies who can help in an emotional confusion of what happened when, and how it happened. Do it while it is still fresh in your mind so that the facts don't become clouded. Just like you see in a crime investigation; and this is a crime. The investigators get to the witnesses ASAP for their interrogation while the events are still fresh in their minds.

Don't give those [email protected]@@stards any crack to get into. I wish I could be there to talk with you and help you through this. 

Make sure this story gets out and let us help wherever we can.

Love and hugs to you!
_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

spoospirit said:


> _Pinky, I know you are young and inexperienced but that DOES NOT mean that you are wrong or did anything wrong. It just doesn't happen that a healthy puppy is shipped one day and three days later is critical and passes on. STOP DOUBTING YOURSELF. If you bring doubt to your fight, you will loose credibility. It must be very difficult for you with such little life experience but you will grow immensely from this experience and you will make a difference to countless lives both animals and humans.
> 
> Get someone to help you work through the grief and then help you put together all of your FACTS. As was mentioned, do not get into an argument with any of those involved in the case. Just the facts mam! and what this has done to you and Charlie.
> 
> I have found by experience, if you give them any more than that, they WILL twist what you say around and use it against you. The most innocent sounding thing you say can become a smoking gun for them. You will need to be very savvy and you need to have someone (maybe the person you mentioned earlier) who is strong, experienced, level-headed and that you trust to help you through this.
> 
> It would be good for someone to sit down and chronicle what happened with all of the documentation you have from the time you bought Charlie. Make notes to self if you need to. This will help you put the whole picture into perspective so that you can present it without emotional confusion or jumping from one point to the other. You don't want to loose the agencies who can help in an emotional confusion of what happened when, and how it happened. Do it while it is still fresh in your mind so that the facts don't become clouded. Just like you see in a crime investigation; and this is a crime. The investigators get to the witnesses ASAP for their interrogation while the events are still fresh in their minds.
> 
> Don't give those [email protected]@@stards any crack to get into. I wish I could be there to talk with you and help you through this.
> 
> Make sure this story gets out and let us help wherever we can.
> 
> Love and hugs to you!
> _


This is incredible, sound advice. What you will be doing Pinky is presenting your story as if you were in court. Court does not like embellishment or innuendo, just the absolute facts, as they happened.

I do not know what it is like there, but here in Canada, we are entitled to a free half hour with a lawyer or paralegal to speak with them and find out how the case looks to them, get advice on how to approach it and what to say, and also on the order things should happen in. Maybe see if it is the same in your State. Take that half hour if it is available to you and get all the help you can. And when you can chronicle every single detail in a book, and slip the related documents into that page. Keep it all neat and orderly, so if you are questioned about anything, you just flip to a page, pull out the documents you need, and can express the details in a concise, easy to understand fashion.

You have a ready, willing and able team of people here who will do anything we can to help you sink the people responsible for what happened to you and Charlie. PLEASE...take us up on the offers of assistance and let us help you and let us be a part of their demise!


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## SnorPuddel

Pinky ...

Here is a suggestion from Prisoners of Greed for a sample editorial.

Who can say no to puppy kisses? It’s the rare person who does not melt when 
confronted with a darling puppy full of funny energy. But it is also the rare person who 
stops to think about the origin of that puppy. It would surprise most people to learn that there is a huge commercial kennel industry in the United States that mass produces puppies and ships them to pet stores. 
The numbers are truly staggering - there are hundreds of thousands of “breeder dogs” 
caged in kennels being bred over and over. Many kennels have hundreds even thousands of breeder dogs caged at their facilities. One company alone had over 26 million dollars in sales in 2002. 
The conditions at these kennels are often horrific - with seriously ill dogs living in filth 
trapped in small wire cages being bred time after time until their little bodies wear out 
and they either die or they are killed because they fail to produce. Anyone who has ever visited one of these kennels will most certainly be haunted by the images, and by the little squeaking sounds coming from dogs who have been debarked - sometimes by 
having a metal rod rammed down their throats to rupture their vocal cords. 
Stories abound from people who have purchased dogs from pet store only to discover 
that their new puppy is seriously ill. Studies by the Center of Disease Control and the 
State of California have shown that 50% of the puppies in pet stores are incubating 
disease. This does not include the numbers of dogs who have genetic conditions that 
were not yet obvious. One Australian Shepherd sold to a Missouri pet store by a large 
puppy broker had hip dysplasia so severe that she hopped like a clumsy bunny. She 
watched mournfully as the other puppies played and struggled to keep up with them but could not. The surgery to repair her hips cost over five thousand dollars and required weeks of recovery. 
Kennels, brokers and pet stores are fond of saying that the kennels are licensed and 
inspected by the United States Department of Agriculture implying that this offers some 
level of assurance of quality. The USDA is tasked with enforcing the Animal Welfare Act which is intended to promote a very minimum standard of care for the dogs in kennels. 
The USDA through it’s Rural Development Loan program gave at least 3.5 million dollars in loans to one of the largest puppy brokers in the country - the same one with 26 million dollars in sales in 2002. This is clearly a conflict of interest. 

USDA representatives have stated on several occasions that the Agency chooses to rely 
on encouragement and education with the kennels to gain compliance with the 
regulations rather than enforcement and citations. This view is also stated in the USDA 
policy manual. If you knew that the police would never give you a ticket for speeding 
what would your incentive be to follow the speed limit? Stated differently, would you 
want to eat at a restaurant where the health inspector only gave warnings and never 
fines for unclean conditions. Encouragement works well for puppy training and toddlers 
but not for regulatory compliance. The USDA’S failure to enforce the provisions of the 
AWA not only harm the people who buy sick puppies but more significantly leave 
thousands of breeder dogs in misery.

The only way to be sure that the puppy you buy did not come from a commercial kennel with horrific conditions is by seeing the parents. Don’t believe the pet store owner who says the puppies were raised in a “loving home in the Midwest”. You need to see the parents and the conditions where they live. 
Even better than buying a new puppy is rescuing a dog from a shelter or a rescue 
organization. Millions of dogs are killed in this country every year. The mass production of puppies is morally and ethically reprehensible puppies when there is a mass slaughter of perfectly wonderful dogs. Pet stores contribute to the mass slaughter because they cater to the impulse purchase. One Petland in Bradenton Florida even brags that it gives it’s employees a special bonus every time they sell a puppy. Adding a dog to a family is a fifteen year commitment and should not be treated like it’s nothing more than buying a pair of shoes. Many of these impulse purchases end up in already over burdened shelters. 
Those little puppies in the pet stores are darling and irresistible. To help you resist them put the picture in your head of their parents in a cage, out in the freezing cold, covered with filth, and profoundly dejected. Dogs are our companions and very best friends. 
Please be their best friends. Don’t contribute to the mass production of puppies. Just say no to that puppy in the window.


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## spoospirit

_Great article, Snorpuddle. The first part made my skin crawl and made me sick in my stomach. 

There must be some way to at least get these kennels cut down to lessen the suffering and pain for both the dogs, pups and the people who purchase them. 

If only people were educated enough to know to do their homework in the first place._


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## Jennifer J

Pinky, I'm so sorry to hear that you lost your precious little Charlie. You have been given tons of advice, I don't really have much more to add in that regard. You did everything that you could for your little baby girl, please don't beat yourself up about this - it simply wasn't your fault.


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## Margotsmom

I can not go so far as to say she was without fault. She was a participant here, she relied on celeb endorsements, and when given a lot of good information, she and her mother still decided to go through with acquiring this pup. It was a hard way to learn a lesson. But she also must take some responsibility for what happened when she saw a picture of a puppy on a website and, in her words said I want that and presto entered her credit card info.


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## Harley_chik

Margotsmom, I think your post is excellent. Some make think it's harsh but IMO, if myself and others had been more harsh and said what we were really feeling before this puppy arrived it might have saved Pinky a lot of heartache and money. Instead we shook our heads, yet stayed silent, at the "oh well it's just one puppymill puppy" and "my friend's uncle's cousin's sister has a puppymill dog w/ no problems." I for one feel guilty for not pressing the issue that even if Charlie had been healthy, her parents are suffering or that bringing home a toy breed puppy at such young age (and shipping her at that) is dangerous. Cutting off the supply of money to these types of breeders is the only way to stop them.


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## Pinky

I'm pretty sure Jennifer meant it's not my fault Charlie died, not that I didn't inflict this upon myself by buying her. That part is done. Not once have I said "Oh, poor me" this is about Charlie and getting justice for HER. Margotsmom and Harley Chik, I suppose you enjoy kicking people when they're down and I have ignored your petty comments bc quite honestly you just seem like super negative people to me which are the kind of people I avoid so I couldn't careless what you think but saying that to me makes you just as bad as the stupid breeder person that called me and more or less said that I'm to blame for Charlie's death. I'm grieving the death of my pet. Yes, I didn't have her long but I still loved her so way to try to make me feel like crap. I hope you're proud of yourselves, a holes. Unless you have something constructive to say please keep your arrogant, holier than thou comments to yourself as I have no interest in reading your poison. 

Ann Marie, I did contact my newstation. I e-mailed them and they are to contact me if they are interested. I asked if you guys could submit it too so maybe then it will get their attention. I did include the link and I can see it in my previous post but here is it again in case it's not showing for you guys:

Contact 3 On Your Side | Phoenix News | Arizona News | azfamily.com | 3 On Your Side

They are doing an autopsy tomorrow but Purebred Breeders is doing it  I don't trust them! I'm financially drained so I can't pay for it. All I can do is hope they are honest but obviously they have no morals. Someone suggested I call the company that makes the medicine Charlie was on and tell them she died while taking it so perhaps they'll offer to pay for the autopsy but I don't feel right doing that. I know she didn't die from the medicine and that's just so deceitful.


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## yigcenuren

Harley Chick, I'm pretty sure that Pinky had already paid for Charlie before she even joined this forum and I KNOW that according to past posts she tried to put a stop payment through before she had gotten Charlie and was unable to. This was on the advice of several other members. Unfortunately she wasn't able to do that as the mill had already charged the card. Scam artists NEVER willingly give money back especially when someone says 'I changed my mind'.
Pinky did try to stop this before it happened.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I'm sure Pinky has learned her lesson. From the exchange of private messages, I can tell she had been trying very hard to learn and she actually tried to provide the best she could for little Charlie. Yes, she made an uneducated decision by buying a puppy mill dog. Yes, she chose not to listen to her brain nor us. But during those few days, she showed she could be a good dog mom. She exhausted her resources. She didn't abandon Charlie at the first vet, a route that many people would pick. 

For more than once, she admitted publicly on the forum (and privately to me and probably a few other forum members) that she was stupid and impulsive in this whole thing. Many of us have gone through the intense grief over the loss of a pet, right? I don't know about everyone else but I think I can cut her some slack and be supportive here. 

We all talk about how cute and how wonderful our dogs are. This girl didn't really have a chance to enjoy a drop of those. We all know how we should make coming to us a happy experience for our dogs. How about making this forum a happy place for this first time dog owner so that she will be willing to come back here for advice when she's ready for a healthy, happy dog? I sincerely hope that Pinky would one day be able to experience the companionship of a healthy, intelligent, even-tempered poodle - a magical experience that many of us are enjoying.

Pinky, focus on getting justice for little Charlie and let me know how I can be of help.


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## JE-UK

Pinky said:


> I'm pretty sure Jennifer meant it's not my fault Charlie died, not that I didn't inflict this upon myself by buying her. That part is done. Not once have I said "Oh, poor me" this is about Charlie and getting justice for HER. Margotsmom and Harley Chik, I suppose you enjoy kicking people when they're down and I have ignored your petty comments bc quite honestly you just seem like super negative people to me which are the kind of people I avoid so I couldn't careless what you think but saying that to me makes you just as bad as the stupid breeder person that called me and more or less said that I'm to blame for Charlie's death. I'm grieving the death of my pet. Yes, I didn't have her long but I still loved her so way to try to make me feel like crap. I hope you're proud of yourselves, a holes. Unless you have something constructive to say please keep your arrogant, holier than thou comments to yourself as I have no interest in reading your poison.


I think people on this board have been extremely supportive, Pinky. Probably many (including me) saw your situation as a train wreck waiting to happen, and still tried to offer helpful advice. 

I understand this is your first dog, and everyone has to learn somewhere. We all make mistakes, but some of us learn from them.

Mistakes you made? Buying a dog on impulse. Buying from a puppy mill broker. Basing your decision on a celebrity endorsement. Picking a breed based on how cute a photo on the Internet was. Imagining that owning a dog would be all sweetness and light and that the puppy would poop butterflies.

Ways to learn? Research breeds. Read, read, read. Get your next one from a reputable breeder that doesn't torture and abuse breeding dogs, one that doesn't send sick puppies out to buyers. Plan how you are going to live with the dog for the next 15-16 years, once it isn't a cute puppy. Learn to train a dog. Publicise the experience you had with company that sold you a dying puppy.

People on this board will fall over themselves to help you learn. It is a fantastic source of information and opinion, and people here love dogs and think EVERYONE should love poodles.

You will also find people on this board (me included) who have seen people make the same mistakes over and over, causing suffering to dogs. The one who suffered the most in your situation was the puppy. You owe it to her to give your next dog an educated owner.


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## fjm

I was one of those who tried to persuade Pinky not to go ahead with this pup. Like others, I could see the potential for misery all round, like others I did not think she had really thought through what owning a puppy would mean in terms of responsibility and money. But I doubt if there is anyone on here that can honestly say they have never made a bad decision, based on what they wanted to believe was true. 

From the moment little Charlie arrived, Pinky did her best for her, facing up to the realities of a horrible situation with courage and determination. She knows she made a bad decision, she has continued to ask for help and advice when it would have been easy to hide away from everyone and never acknowledge what had happened, and I for one believe she will most certainly not only never make the same mistakes again, but will help others to avoid them too. I also believe she will be an excellent mother to her next puppy.


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## faerie

pinky, i hope like hell you can get the remains of pinky back for a counter autopsy if they say charlie died from something you did. because they'll be lying out their ying yang.

i am so ticked off at this situation for you. i've posted on my facebook about them. i'm going to post same to twitter ... do'nt let the bastards keep you from one day getting the dog of your dreams. i love my dogs and wouldn't trade them for all the tea in china. 

now you know where to look. you got the folks here to help.

first, though, let's see if we can get justice for you and that tiny little pup who didn't have a chance even before she was born.


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## Purley

From what I saw of Pinky's posts, she was really upset when she discovered that she had bought the puppy from a broker for puppy mills. HOWEVER, she had paid her money by that time and couldn't cancel the contract. I can understand why she didn't want to throw away $1,400. So, although she made the mistake of buying a puppy mill dog, she certainly didn't realize that it was a puppy mill dog at the time she paid the money.

I have had lots of dogs and I belong to the local kennel club, but when I was looking for a new breed, I looked at Havanese and I actually went to a website of a breeder in Saskatchewan. I decided against a Havanese but I could easily have bought a dog from that woman and now a friend of mine who knows a lot more about breeders than I do, says this woman is a puppy mill and that some of her purebred dogs are not actually totally the breed she says they are.

So, I am more experienced than Pinky and I could still have made a mistake. I agree with the person (might have been Pinky) who said that this is in the past and now we should go forward and try to educate other people.

There are plenty of people a good deal older and with more experience than Pinky who could have or will in the future buy a dog from a puppy mill becuase they don't realize its a puppy mill.


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## Margotsmom

If she thinks my comments were petty and spiteful that says it all about her. This is a public forum and we have a responsibility to others who will read the INFORMATION here about how to be a responsible person when trying to acquire a dog.


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## whitepoodles

Pinky:
I am SO sorry for your great loss and I can only imagine what you must feel in your heart. Not to sound harsh as this is not the moment to make harsh and I told you so comments, but I trully hope that this sad tale of loss for which you are now grieving will serve as a CLIENT BEWARE to everyone who ever contemplates surfing on the net in search of puppies produced by mass breeders as this one was from whom Pinky got Charley. These people have a fantastic sales pitch that can draw to their "fancy" websites naiive uninformed and honest folks looking to aquire a pet. Sadly these type of breeders prey on people like Pinky.
Pinky you will one day have your wonderful pet, and hopefully purchased from a reputable honest breeder who will back up her breeding for life and be there for you in good and bad times for support.
Go after these "bastards" as you call them (sorry for the language) and make them pay, put their name in red print everywhere. We are all here in support of your efforts in exposing these BYB, puppy millers and bringing them to justice ,if you can.

Personally, I think your former vet is oh well.. I dont even want to label him, I have so little respect for him.. He took your money and did nothing to save your puppy, by the time you took him to the 2nd vet, unfortunatley it was too late.

Charley is now running in beautiful fields filled with wild flowers with her ears flapping in the wind and knowing no more pain or suffering. Be happy for her where she is now.. She is in a better place. My heart is breaking for you and cried when I read about her death. Be strong Pinky.


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## Poodle Lover

Pinky said:


> They are doing an autopsy tomorrow but Purebred Breeders is doing it  I don't trust them!


Oh no!!! Do they have Charlie's remains yet???? If not, don't let them do the autopsy. You really don't think these people will give you the honest results. You have to have your vet, or a third party vet do it, otherwise you can bet that Purebred Breeders will find that it was all your fault.


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## CelticKitti

I was out of town at a flyball tornement this weekend, and didn't have access to the internet. I was thinking about Charlie all weekend, wondering how she was doing. Jess, I'm so sorry for your loss. This makes me so angry! Poodles are such wonderful dogs, I hope you one day will get to experience the full Joy they can offer.


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## 1Jurisdiva

Pinky - I know you made an honest mistake when purchasing Charlie. I don't think what Margotsmom said was really all that different from reiterating how such a mistake can be made. I think it was important to say again because people who come on this forum are not going to read all 7 pages of comments, might miss this, and go on to make the same mistake. 

I think you need to take any criticism you receive on this board as practice on how to respond in the future when you are making Charlie's story public. If you get upset and namecall, you are going to lose the message you are trying to convey. I can tell you that when I am wielding my evil attorney powers (mostly for good, I promise), an emotional witness is much more easy to sway my way than one who keeps a level head. People WILL criticize you as you go and try to raise awareness - some extreme people will criticize you from purchasing from a relatively obvious mass puppy broker, and the company will lie and try to make this your fault. I know it will be difficult, but the more calm you can remain in the face of such criticism, the more effective you will be.

One other part of the problem is that these companies have a $500 non refundable deposit. It is hard to convince puppy buyers that walking away from the $500 will be much cheaper, and less heartbreaking than taking possession of the puppy. I know we tried that here. It is very hard to walk away from such a sum, and in the end the puppy mills not only get their $500 deposit, but a full $1500 for their disservice. The puppy buyers are then not only out of $1500, but then have an immense amount that will be paid in additional vet bills.


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## Jessie's Mom

hey, guys....i think most of the members here are wonderful people. and i think that most of the people here have been tremendous help to pinky. i wasn't part of the original thread that was posted by pinky b/f she got charlie. actually "met" pinky through a pm she sent me in support when jessie & i had that terrible experience with that crazy man last week. 

that being said, i just want to say that this is a very sensitive situation. regardless of the error made in buying a puppy from a puppy mill, it is what it is. so many of you have a priceless amount of info to offer to anyone who is there for the asking. unfortunately, not everyone learns from another's experience. sometimes people have to find out for themselves. sometimes the price they pay is not so high, sometimes it is devastating. in this case, it was devastating. 

this subject happens to be one of the most volatile subjects we could discuss. the reason is, it 100% assaults our emotions to see or even just acknowledge the abuse that animals are subject to. let's not forget the focus which is to turn this around and put these people out of business. this forum has many dedicated people who are generous with their time and expertise who can lead us less experienced pet lover down the road of helping to destroy this satanic operation. let's not hurt each other in the process.

i know i may be opening up myself to criticsm for writing this, but please just know it's coming from my heart. united we could be very powerful here, divided we will not be successful.


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## roxy25

Pinky :

My offer still stands, I know a breeder in AZ that can help you find a toy poodle. I also know Several breeders in CA which is not far from AZ.......


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## LEUllman

Pinky:
Having spent the last five years building and running several ecommerce businesses and dealing with large volumes of credit-card transactions, let me share a couple of things about online stores from an insider perspective.

First, online merchants live or die based on their ability to accept credit card payments. As it is, banks are mistrustful of internet businesses - they are charged considerably higher transaction fees than a "brick and mortar" store, and that's before any complaints come in. When a consumer calls a credit card company to dispute a transaction, the bank issues a "charge back" to the merchant. Believe me, charge backs are a serious matter! Every processor is different, but most will increase the merchant's fees automatically after even a few charge backs, and if there are enough of them, the bank closes the merchant account, which can put the online store out of business.

Second, by law the bank takes the side of the _consumer_, not the merchant! The _merchant_ must prove that the consumer is in the wrong, or the charge-back sticks. The bottom line here is that you you received -- sorry -- "defective merchandise." The puppy was obviously sick when you received it; you have ample proof of that. This has nothing to do with any bogus "Guarantee" from the merchant - I would ignore that entirely. Your card issuer has its own rules and guarantees in place. Some cards are more consumer friendly than others - which card did you use? Many include additional consumer protections and guarantees. Call them and ask. Also ask them what you are required by the bank's rules to do in terms of communicating with the merchant. These people are "unscrupulous internet scam artists" (I'd use those words or something similar), and they did you grievous harm. You want to keep your communications with them to an absolute minimum; can you deal with this strictly via the bank, and let them communicate with the merchant?

Third: Do not -- I repeat, do _NOT_ -- communicate with the merchant on the phone!! Handle everything in writing, and everything you send out goes Certified Mail with return receipt. If you must email or fax, back it up with a hard copy, also mailed Certified. Keep copies of everything sent, with notes about when and how transmitted.

Forth: I'm not sure if they have been, but under no circumstances should the merchant ever be in direct contact with your vet(s)! Call the vets and tell them that you do not authorize them to communicate about this matter to anyone other than you without your express written permission. Absolutely deliver this notice to them via hard copy, and send it Certified Mail, Return Receipt. If the merchant or the bank requires the vets' records, YOU send them out, providing only the specifics requested, nothing more. You want to keep them from going on a fishing expedition.

Finally, always assume that everything you say can and will be used against you, because it will! Answer specific questions with truthful, but equally specific answers. If "yes" or "no" will do, that's what you say. Never volunteer details beyond what is being asked for. The puppy was sick when you received it; you took him to two different licensed veterinarians and spent a huge amount of money in a desperate attempt to save his life. In spite of your best efforts, the puppy was in such bad condition when you received him, he was unable to pull through. The "Certificate of health" provided by the merchant is obviously fraudulent, as others here have pointed out. That's all they need to know!

I would do only thing above and beyond what's required to recover the initial amount you paid for Charlie - I would write to the President of the bank that provides Pure Bred Breeder's Merchant Account, and make sure they know this outfit is a front for a nationwide ring of puppy mills. If not actually illegal, this is an utterly shameful practice, and you doubt that the bank wants to be connected with it. Back it up with links to the BBB, articles and videos on the subject, and the many online complaint-board posts I provided links to earlier. Inform them that you are taking this to the media. That will get their attention!

Good luck, and keep fighting the good fight!


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## Pinky

Thanks for all of the support guys. I would be way more lost if it wasn't for all of you.

I just talked to the vet clinic where Charlie died. I was trying to find out who was doing the autopsy, whether Purebred was paying them or getting their own doctors to do it. She (manager) said the body has been frozen for too long so they can't do an autopsy and they're going to cremate her now and I am to pick up the ashes in a few weeks. The interesting thing is that she says she told Purebred Breeders this on Saturday, but that's the same day they e-mailed me saying that the clinic told them they would hold the body until Monday for them. They are so effing shady. There isn't a cause of death listed in her medical records so I don't know where to go from here.

This is what I have done so far:
1) Disputed the transaction with my credit card. 
2) E-mailed my news station about getting this on the news
3) E-mailed Ellen DeGeneres about Charlie's story as I know she's a huge animal lover and I'm hoping she can use her money and resources to get these monster shut down.

I've been told by a couple of people to file a small courts claim against the breeder. In AZ the amount can't exceed $2,500 for this, which mine does. Perhaps I should file the vet bills only? I was also told to report the the vet to the OK vet people..I think someone posted a link and advice about that on another thread so I'm going to read through everything and sort through that to get a better idea of what to do next.

It's hard not to be emotional about this. I had a friend tell me yesterday that I shouldn't have gotten so attached to her once I knew she was sick, but I don't see how that is even possible. As for the AZ breeder offer, I don't think I will be able to get another puppy for a long time. First, I need to heal from Charlie. I'm sure it will always hurt, but I couldn't possibly get another puppy right now. I feel I am much more prepared to have a puppy now so I don't feel my next puppy would have an uneducated owner as someone stated. I learned a lot from Charlie about myself and I KNOW I am capable of giving a puppy a good home, just not now. And I need to recover financially. I will not get a puppy until I can afford the very best vet care and find a vet that I know will take good care of my puppy. All of this will surely take time and right now all of my energy needs to go into getting justice for Charlie and getting these people shut down. Obviously they're getting away with it for a reason, but I will tarnish their name to everyone I can reach if that's the only thing I can do.


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## Fluffyspoos

Wow Pinky, you have earned a lot of respect from me. You are truly a very strong person and I admire all the steps you are taking to do the right thing to honor the death of Charlie.

I am very sorry for your loss, hopefully your actions will help someone else in this situation in the future.


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## Jessie's Mom

Fluffyspoos said:


> Wow Pinky, you have earned a lot of respect from me. You are truly a very strong person and I admire all the steps you are taking to do the right thing to honor the death of Charlie.
> 
> I am very sorry for your loss, hopefully your actions will help someone else in this situation in the future.


ditto on this....you are proving yourself to be focused and strong inspite of everything. even making the decision to bring this to a close first is a very mature and clear thinking thing to do. 

even though you won't have a pup for awhile (& i sincerely hope you do, sometime in the not too distant future cause i would like to think that a puppy would have the opportunity to have the wonderful life that your experience with this situation will allow you to give that puppy), i hope you don't disappear from this forum. stay around, please. keep us updated AND continue to learn, absord, ask questions.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jessie's Mom said:


> ditto on this....you are proving yourself to be focused and strong inspite of everything. even making the decision to bring this to a close first is a very mature and clear thinking thing to do.
> 
> even though you won't have a pup for awhile (& i sincerely hope you do, sometime in the not too distant future cause i would like to think that a puppy would have the opportunity to have the wonderful life that your experience with this situation will allow you to give that puppy), i hope you don't disappear from this forum. stay around, please. keep us updated AND continue to learn, absord, ask questions.


Agee 100%. We have all shared a deeply painful and terrible experience with you, and you are in our hearts now. There is a perfect, healthy puppy in your future and it would be lovely to be a part of that process with you, helping you choose a good breeder and a healthy puppy.

Tell us if you need us to do anything in Charlie's memory to help put these idiots out of business.


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## Pinky

I probably will so I am more informed if I get a new puppy.

Didn't someone say that the "health certificate" should have a stamp from the vet? I don't think I even have that. I have two things with the vet's signature..one is titled "Veterinary Check Certificate" and the other is "Breeder's Veterinary Report Form" which is what I posted a pic of earlier.

The vet you found is the right one, Josie. That's the address that's on the paperwork from him. I'm on Oklahoma Department of Agriculture, Food and Forestry trying to figure out how to report the vet. One of my old co-workers is a breeder (totally forgot about that) and he's going to try to help me with this. He thinks the vet will be fined but without us being able to determine a cause of death now I'm not sure how this will all play out.


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## Pinky

Oh, and someone commented on consulting with a lawyer. AZ doesn't have any free legal consult, at least not that I'm aware of - please correct me if I'm wrong, so that's not really an option for me. Is there such a thing as animal lawyers? I should perhaps try to find one that will do it pro bono.


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## LEUllman

You go, girl!


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## 1Jurisdiva

I would go to your local SPCA and see if they have any contacts - they deal with abuse rescues all the time and might know who to talk to.


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## Pinky

Filed a complaint with the The Humane Society of The United States. I did it online but they also have this form: http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/pets/puppy_mills/pet_seller_complaint_form.pdf

think I should send that in when I report the vet?


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## schnauzerpoodle

Pinky, I'm so proud of you. See, I said I could see your potential in becoming a responsible and loving dog mom and from what you just said you have proved that you can be one. Take your time and whenever you are ready, we will be here to help you pick out a healthy and even-tempered puppy that best suits your lifestyle. 

For now, we will help you and support you in this fight.

I think you can file a complaint with the Oklahoma Veterinary Medical Association at Oklahoma Veterinary Medical Association

I have sent an email to your local newstation and hopefully they will report your story.

Pinky, don't forget to get some rest.


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## Pinky

Thanks, Josie. I appreciate that. I think I might even agree with you 

If anyone has twitter can you PLEASE tweet Kim Kardashian? This is her page:

Kim Kardashian (KimKardashian) on Twitter

I tweeted her saying I bought a dog off purebredbreeders.com bc they said she got her dog Rocky from them but my puppy died within 3 days and they're a puppy mill. Twitter only allows you to write messages containing 140 characters and I know it's a long shot since she must get billions of tweets but I'm hoping she will read it and do something about it. I know she isn't to blame, but people like me really do look up to celebrities and all I needed to hear was that Kim got her dog there and I was sold - I know there's lots more people out there that would do the same so maybe this will be one small step towards stoping these tragedies.


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## roxy25

Pinky said:


> Filed a complaint with the The Humane Society of The United States. I did it online but they also have this form: http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/pets/puppy_mills/pet_seller_complaint_form.pdf
> 
> think I should send that in when I report the vet?


Honestly I would not use the HSUS , They make profits getting donations and never use the money to actually help animals. ( I will scan the article from my text book) I would contact a local humane society you will have better luck with that than HSUS.


I think you are doing the right thing by getting legal advice and trying to stop this puppy mill. 

I also think twitting Kim wont do much of anything either. Most of these celebs are not bright at all... Many sponsor PETA but have no idea what PETA is about .... How can one support PETA and then later eat a steak for dinner or wear some leather boots ? ( this is totally OT) but like I said the HSUS is almost like PETA they do nothing for the animals.


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## roxy25

O I wanted to add this also. The kennel I posted Start yorkie kennels ( in your other thread) is just like the place you got charlie from. I used to work there until If ound out what was really going on !

I would get calls from people saying their puppy died or were sick. Most of these puppy mills actually sell dogs younger than 8 weeks so they will be "teacups". The only difference between this kennel and the one you got charlie from is location. You will have better success getting your money back since the kennel is in USA. Star yorkie are getting their puppy mill dogs from Korea ! 

I live in Korea town in Los Angeles and most of these pet shops that have puppies owned by Koreans are getting their pups from puppy mills in Korea. ( this was on Oprah a while back). When you go to these pet shops and ask where did you get the pups all of these stores reply my parents breed them in Korea :wacko: I asked this to all the pet shops I went in to and this was the same reply star yorkie gave me when they interviewed me. 

I know that some memebers have made it seem like getting a puppy from a mill is ok IMO its not ok. I am sorry that this has happened to Charlie but this is quite common from places like where charlie came from.


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## Pinky

Well that's disheartening.

I also reported them to the Better Business Bureau but they won't do anything about the puppies themselves. But maybe this will hurt their pockets. 

Purebred Breeders called me with an "offer" the breeder has for me. I told them I wanted them to speak to my friend and had him call them and I'm waiting to hear back on what this supposed offer is. He's up to date with everything and he's a breeder so I think he can better handle them than I can.


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## faerie

pinky i am absolutely impressed with how you are handling this.

stay strong.

check this out!
http://www.ripoffreport.com/Search/Company/Purebred-Breeders.aspx


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## Pinky

So their offer is to give me half off a new puppy. Are you kidding me? They're still trying to blame me. They told my friend that I neglected to take care of Charlie. Yeah, ok, that's why I have over a grand in vet bills. They're still with my denying some medication to which my friend asked her what the side effects of the medication is and she (purebred breeders) said none..supposedly this lady is a vet nurse and has been for 15 years is what she told my friend. My friend told her that even aspirin has side effects and how can she think that medication on a sick, one pound puppy wouldn't have a side effect and had she considered that maybe I didn't want to put Charlie's body through more than it was already going through. They're twisting everything around so I don't know what to do..I have disputed it but if they tell this to the credit card company then they will just dismiss my dispute. They're such freakin liars!


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## Pinky

I'm considering calling the vet and breeder...yes or no? What should I say? I'm thinking of telling the vet that I'm reporting him and tell the breeder that I am taking her to small claims court..should I not even bother doing this? I feel like I need to give them a piece of my mind but I don't know if that will do more hurt than good.


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## faerie

keep fighting it. get everything you can in writing. send it all to your cc company. 

vet reports, emails and etc. document document document.


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## puppylove

Remember, being emotional won't help. Don't call the vet or breeder until you are absolutely positive you can be completely calm, rational and in control. Otherwise it can do more harm than good. 

And remember, you have the backing of a serious bunch of puppy lovers here.


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## Feralpudel

Pinky said:


> I'm considering calling the vet and breeder...yes or no? What should I say? I'm thinking of telling the vet that I'm reporting him and tell the breeder that I am taking her to small claims court..should I not even bother doing this? I feel like I need to give them a piece of my mind but I don't know if that will do more hurt than good.


Pinky, LEUllman and Jurisdiva gave you some awesome, very detailed advice a few pages back. IMO, the best way to hurt these people is to sully their name with the credit card processor, as LEUllman described. It also seems to be the best approach to at least getting your puppy payment back. It would also be great if the local TV news took up your cause.


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## onlypoodles4me

When dealing with any of these people, you will need to have your facts and time line written down so you dont get sidetracked. Times and dates, and facts. Also make plenty of copies of all your documentation to show anyone that will listen.
It's hard when talking to the cc company, breeder, vet or small claims court, to not get emotional when speaking about the situation, but you want to be strong and mature about it. It's very difficult, as they prey on your emotions.
Unfortunately it's how it works. 
I think contacting a local tv station would be a good idea, often they can bring light to a story that otherwise gets swept under the rug. Keep talking until someone listens to you!
Good luck with your battle!


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## schnauzerpoodle

I also don't think you should call the 'breeder' and that vet now. You are emotional. You are pissed by their stupid 'offer'. Stay calm. I think you should deal with people that are more likely to be on your side, say the credit card company. Take to your vets. Tell them what is going on and what the broker said they heard from these vets. Get everything on papers. 

You are handling everything well. You can do it.


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## jester's mom

Pinky, I just read up on the last few pages since I haven't been on for a couple days. You are doing a wonderful job with this situation and I, also, am impressed with how you are dealing with all this. First, I want to reply to your question on ABOUT CALLING either the vet or breeder. This is only MY opinion. I don't think it is a good thing to do. Too much chance of too much emotion. Also, I would HIGHLY suggest you write to them, send it registered mail so you know they got it, and keep a copy of what you wrote. This way, you can PROVE that you sent it and what you wrote to them. AND, if they reply, you can have proof. If they refuse to pick up their registered mail, you have proof. If they call you back and suggest anything, tell them you want it in writing. If you want to avoid "he said, she said" remarks that can tangle the issue, do things in writing. Even email would be good, just make sure that you print all emails WITH all the "send" info of time/person sending/etc. on it. But, I still would use the registered mail.

I think it is very wise to use your hurt/anger as an impetus to go after these horrible people! Just remember what many have said, before you contact/talk to anyone, make sure you have your facts IN FRONT of you so you cannot be made flustered and not remember them, and make sure you use facts and not emotion. I realize how very difficult it is to leave the emotions behind in such a situation but in order to "get back" at these people, you need to. 

I think it is a wise idea that you let your breeder friend do some of the talking to people as this person will not have the emotion and also, I assume, has some years of life/animal experience.

Keep going, you are doing a great job. The people on here have given you some great advice/info. That is one of the GREATEST things about being a part of a group like this. You have lots of people with lots of different life experiences here so lots of knowledge available to that you wouldn't have if it were just one or two friends helping you. 

I have been looking things up but don't have any good info to add, just encouragement... sorry. I am putting this situation on my facebook WITH names of breeder/vet and the company. The more that read this type of stuff, the more chances of helping out some dogs and helping some people make the right choice when buying their new pup. 

Yes, you made a mistake. Yes, it is one that was costly in both emotion and money. But, we ALL have made mistakes in our lives, mistakes that we wish we hadn't made. It is an awful way to learn, but, IF we use our mistakes to learn, to help others learn and to change things, then that mistake is not in vain. The lessons that impart the MOST to help us learn and grow, are the ones that hurt, the ones that make us stand back and say "I won't do that again." You are using this lesson to the best, using it to help stop others from making it and using it to put the word out about these people. In the end, you will be a stronger person. 

I am so sorry you had to learn this lesson in such a devastating way, but am so glad to see you use the results positively. I hope that some day you are able to find a puppy to love and spend many happy years with!


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## PaddleAddict

Forget the broker and breeder, just fight with your credit card company. You are the customer and the merchent sent you deffective merchandise. I know it sounds harsh to say this about a living creature, but it's the bottom line here. They need to reverse the charges ASAP. 

The credit card company needs to be on your side. Take up your fight with them. Don't worry about what the credit card company may or may not do. Don't let them tell you to call the merchant. Refuse. YOU are the customer, and they have fraud departments to take care of this. Stick to your guns with the credit card company only.

Once that's done, you can consider sueing the broker in small claims for the medical bills.

Also, I am very sorry for all that you've had to go through.


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## PaddleAddict

Also, the reason they are extending you an "offer" is because they know you have the power to reverse the charges. They are trying to trick you into NOT taking action with your credit card company.

Watch, the next "offer" will be a replacement puppy, free of charge (which you obviously wouldn't accept). They want you to get tired of the fight and give up....


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## FozziesMom

Forgive me for stating the obvious but...

where was Pinky's mother in all of this? I would like to see HER working on her daughter's behalf to fight these Ba$tards.


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## spoospirit

FozziesMom said:


> Forgive me for stating the obvious but...
> 
> where was Pinky's mother in all of this? I would like to see HER working on her daughter's behalf to fight these Ba$tards.


_I have been wondering the same thing since the thread about her being ill. I didn't want to offend anyone by asking but since you mentioned it, WHERE IS MOM? I would be the first one to run to my childrens' side to help them in any way I could if they had a bad experience.
_


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## whitepoodles

Didn't someone say that the "health certificate" should have a stamp from the vet? I don't think I even have that. I have two things with the vet's signature..one is titled "Veterinary Check Certificate" and the other is "Breeder's Veterinary Report Form" which is what I posted a pic of earlier.

Pinky:
If my memory serves me right I am the one who told you that any veterinarian health certificate has to bear the examining veterinarian signature, license number and the clinic's stamp
At least this is how it is done here in Canada when I have U.S. client pick up their puppy, I Must give them a health certificate dated no later than 10 days prior to puppy's sale/posession by new owner, and this certicate is presented at the border/customs . In your case since they sold you a puppy, they had to clear themselves and state taht the pup they sold you is devoid of any parasites, infections, etc. etc... NOW it remains to be confirmed WHO is the vet that did the evaluation of this puppy prior to sale... If there is a VET name on the health certificate it should bear his original signature as well as his license and vet / clinic stamp.. 
DO YOU HAVE THESE ON THE CERTIFICTE ISSUED TO YOU when the puppy was shipped to you ?? If not, then it is a FALSE piece of paper and a fictitious examination. When I viewed the certificated you posted on this thread I did not see any vet's name nor a signature or a stamp.
What gives ?


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## Jessie's Mom

jess...from my experience with the credit card company when you dispute something, is they hold up payment to the vendor. if they already paid the vendor, they will withdraw the payment. right then & there you have the attention of everyone you are trying to expose. they are in it for the money & you just made a hole in their pocket. 

the next step is you have to provide them with details as to why you are disputing along with all the backup you have to validate your claim. once they receive this from you, they will send it to the vendor giving them a chance to dispute your allegations. you will get a copy of their report which you will have a chance to react to. 

this is the process i experienced and through it all, the vendor i brought charges up against did not get paid. in my case, i won, eventually, by default b/c the vendor got tired of trying to prove their case (they had no case to prove), so they gave up. but everything i sent the credit card company was clearly document evidence. so heed the recommendations of everyone here - keep your records straight. you said you have a friend who is trying to help you keep things in order. good idea, sometimes just being 1 degree removed from the situation helps to have a clearer head.

be persistent and patient. this is not to be cleared up overnight. it will take time, buy time is something you have plenty of. let them sqiuirm which they will do when they realize you aren't going away so easily or succumbing to their scare tactics so easily.

chin up girlfriend. you are doing great and we've got your back

ann marie


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I don't know why I did not think of this before. www.sqeakywheel.com

You pay $5 and post your story. Then you send a copy to everyone whose email address you have and ask them to do the same. Every time someone reads it, the company receives and email telling them someone else has read it. A lot of people jujst go there to read the stories. A friend of mine has a friend who bought two toy poodles from a breeder in the US. They both arrived quite sick.. She posted the story on Squeakywheel and last I saw over 1,100 people had read her stroy. I am sure everyone here who has supported you would give you their email addy so you can pass the letter on to them so they in turn can send it out to everyone they know.


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## Jessie's Mom

what a great idea!! never heard of 'squeaky wheel' , but the name says it all.

i'm on - pinky i will pm you my eMail address if you decide to do this

ann marie


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## penny_ann

That is a great idea, as are most of them so far. I agree, Pinky, dispute the claim with your credit card company and do not talk to the breeders unless you absolutely have to. I know there is no way I personally would be able to talk to them without being emotional and it's obvious they will use that against you. I'll PM you with my email too if you decide to do the squeakywheel.


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## Sapphire-Light

This is horrible. I'm sorry to hear this, I really hate millers, I don't know how they can play with people like this. :arrogant (2): someday sooner or later they are going to pay for their actions.

I hope someday you can get a pup, and enjoy the company. :hug:


A few years ago I almost fall into getting a dog with a similar "breeder", but thankfully I posted it before in a dog forum and they opened my eyes.

Now with a lot of reading and patience I finally got my pup.


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## lisasgirl

Pinky - DO NOT CALL THE BREEDER, BROKER, OR THEIR VET. At all. If they call you, say that you have nothing to say to them over the phone and they can issue you any correspondence IN WRITING. Tell them to expect the same from you. Then *hang up*. I'm serious. 

Honestly, I don't even think it's a good idea to have your breeder friend talk with them over the phone. It's too easy to turn it into a he said/she said situation. Request everything in writing instead, and get your breeder friend to help you decide what to ask.

Read the advice that LEUllman posted a couple of pages back. Follow it to the letter.

The only people you should call now will would be your vet (to tell them that you do not want them giving out ANY information on your behalf without your express permission - follow this up with a written request to the same effect, sent certified as LEUllman said) and your credit card company. The credit card company will advocate for you. If you choose to consult with a lawyer, then that person can speak on your behalf as well. Do NOT speak with these breeders/brokers directly. At all. Ever. It's really safest if you don't. 

Now, as others said, you need to get your documentation together. Request that both vets you worked with write up an official summary of the situation, on office letterhead, with their signature and credentials clearly seen. Make sure that they mention their assessment of the dog's health, including the fact that Charlie must have been sick prior to her arrival with you. Ask that they keep one copy of this information on file at the vet office, and keep the other copy for your records. Make sure you have all receipts and medical records. Ask for a copy of all of Charlie's official medical info, including her chart. 

Make at least one extra copy of every single piece of documentation you have (including emails). File the originals someplace safe. NEVER SEND THE ORIGINALS TO ANYONE, not even the credit card company; only send copies. ALWAYS keep the originals yourself.

Don't listen to your emotions, feelings, or impulses in this situation. Listen to the cold, hard, practical advice of people more experienced than yourself.

You've become very strong through this experience, and you have further yet to go. I know you can do it!


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## LEUllman

Pinky:

Your last question was whether or not you should contact the vet or breeder. I urge you NOT to do this. I know it might make you feel better to vent, but you can only weaken your case by doing so. There's just nothing to gain, and much to lose. So grit your teeth and hang tight. The fact that they have made you an "offer" means they are concerned, and I guarantee you, what they are concerned about is the status of their Merchant Account with the credit-card processor. Deal with the bank by providing exactly what they ask for, as quickly as possible. Keep it to the facts, with an exact timeline of who did what when. They don't need details about what treatments the vet(s) did or did not do. The puppy was woefully sick upon receipt; you went way above and beyond the call of duty to save the puppy's life. You have the vet bills to prove it. The bottom line is simple and clear - everything that occurred happened because _they sent you a weak, obviously sick animal_. Right there, they violated their end of the bargain. Period, end of story. As others have pointed out, their "vet's report" is obviously fraudulent, as it is totally contradicted by plain facts of the case. Here's a link to the Arizona Puppy Lemon Law.

The way I read it, you have clear rights here, and a simple case to prove. Was the puppy sick with a pre-existing illness upon receipt? Obviously so. Do you have a statement from a properly licensed vet saying so? I believe you do. Under the law, that's what you are required to provide. Be sure to bring this up with the credit card processor, and even send them a link to the relevant legal documentation! They owe you. Make 'em pay.

Understand that they are going to try to put the blame on you, because that is what they need to do to weasel out of this. You defense is that you took the puppy to two different vets, doing what you could, within reason, to deal with a terrible predicament, one you should NEVER HAD TO DEAL WITH HAD THEY LIVED UP TO THEIR END OF BARGAIN!

Sorry to shout, but I guess we are all emotional about this. I look at my sweet Beau, and think of Charlie, and you. Makes me sad, and very, very angry.


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## Marian

I strongly second what lisagirl and LEUllman have advised.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I wanted to let you know that I put the wrong address in when posting this site. It is actually: TheSqueakyWheel.com - we get refunds! Post your consumer complaints here.


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## roxy25

spoospirit said:


> _I have been wondering the same thing since the thread about her being ill. I didn't want to offend anyone by asking but since you mentioned it, WHERE IS MOM? I would be the first one to run to my childrens' side to help them in any way I could if they had a bad experience.
> _


I think Maybe Pinky is older than we think ? This is why Mom is not involved ? I dunno


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## Cdnjennga

I have just been reading through these threads now and just wanted to say how sorry I am for the experience you had with Charlie. You have had some great advice here on how to handle things, I hope you find it helpful. I'm sorry you have to go through all this hassle at the same time as grieving your loss. I have my fingers and toes crossed that things will work out as they should for you!


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## Pinky

Ann Marie, the certificate does have a signature..I just didn't take a picture of the whole thing bc I wanted you guys to be able to read his bs checklist. It doesn't, however, have his license number nor a stamp. Josie did find his clinic online so I guess it's legit, but obviously this is a shady, heartless vet that only cares about the money instead of the animals. 

Lisasgirl, I think I have to do some communication via phone. When they called me yesterday and I didn't answer bc I wanted them to talk to my friend they e-mailed me asking I call them back. But perhaps I should just request they e-mail me instead. Since this was an online purchase a lot of our communication has been done via e-mail. I'm reading over the e-mails we exchanged when I was buying her and I asked why I had to take her to the vet within 48 hours of getting her and they responded:

You need to take her to the vet to see if she arrived to you healthy. We don't want to hear she got worms or got a cold 3 weeks later and it was not the breeders fault. We just want to make sure your happy. It's just a check up.

Doesn't that imply that Charlie should NOT have arrived with worms? Since to them 3 weeks later would be suspicious, how about not even having her for 36 hours and she already had worms? Damn I wish I had read that earlier so I could have faxed it to my credit card with my dispute stuff. I have to go back to the library later to make copies of my receipts so I think I'll fax it to them then. 

And I should have known something was up bc this is the last e-mail I sent him and he never responded:

Alex, I am reading about toy poodles to prepare myself for the puppy's arrival and I have a few questions I would like to ask the breeder about my puppy. Could you give me her e-mail or how do I go about getting my questions answered from the breeder directly?

Ugh! They're so despicable. I know everyone needs a job and it's not like he's the breeder, but he's calling people and lying to them about how "healthy" and "perfect" these puppies are. He MUST know the truth. Like I said, I know everyone needs a job but I could NEVER work for a company like that. I would just feel like such a douchebag. Which he is. Reading over the e-mails he also promised me a free DVD about training puppies bc I expressed some concern about this being my first pet...it's been 2 weeks now and I never got it. Obviously I no longer need it nor do I give a damn, but it's the principle of the matter - they're LIARS. 

My mom is about as useful as a football bat. I've pretty much raised myself and apparently I didn't do such a great job ha. Plus, I am technically an adult so I should handle it but even if I wasn't I'd still be doing it. 

I will be posting on the squeaky wheel so everyone PLEASE PM me your e-mail addresses so I can send it to you guys. I hope people read it  I know I usually ignore e-mails like that, but it's worth a shot. If nothing else to drag their name through the dirt. I know the chances of me getting them closed down is like 0% as they've obviously been getting away with this for a long time, but I feel like I HAVE to do something. I can't just let them get away with what they did to my poor Charlie. Disgusting people. 

Any suggestions on what I should name my post on squeaky wheel? I need something that will get people's attention and have the company's name in it so it comes up in searches.


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## Pinky

Arreau, did they give your friend a refund after she posted it? I already called my credit card and told them how they're trying to twist facts around and to make sure they read the vet reports themselves. The Banfield one makes me look bad bc it says I declined a bunch of stuff but it was just bc I couldn't afford it there, I got it done at the second clinic I took her to. I know they're placing the guilt on me bc they want to keep the money and I know I shouldn't let it get to me, but it does. It makes me feel guilty and like Charlie would be alive had I been able to do more for her. But I never denied her anything that she needed. They told my friend yesterday that I declined an IV which is untrue. My poor baby was on an IV all 3 times she was with a vet and she was hospitalized each time. Ugh I hate feeling guilty on top of everything else.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Pinky said:


> Arreau, did they give your friend a refund after she posted it? I already called my credit card and told them how they're trying to twist facts around and to make sure they read the vet reports themselves. The Banfield one makes me look bad bc it says I declined a bunch of stuff but it was just bc I couldn't afford it there, I got it done at the second clinic I took her to. I know they're placing the guilt on me bc they want to keep the money and I know I shouldn't let it get to me, but it does. It makes me feel guilty and like Charlie would be alive had I been able to do more for her. But I never denied her anything that she needed. They told my friend yesterday that I declined an IV which is untrue. My poor baby was on an IV all 3 times she was with a vet and she was hospitalized each time. Ugh I hate feeling guilty on top of everything else.


I think they tried to make good but they wanted to send her a new pup which she wanted no part of. BUT, she got an immense amount of satisfaction knoowing the people she got her sick pups from had to deal with at least 1,100 emails from thesqueakywheel. They ended up closing down under the original kennel name and re-opening under another, but I think they are done now. Does not matter if you change your kennel name if the human's names are still linked to the new set up. Tainted is tainted regardless of what you call your operation.

My email address is [email protected] Please take your time, and make your letter concise and chronological and easy to follow. You want people to be impacted, read the entire complakint and send it on to their mail list.

I would title it something like: Purebredbreeders.com send sick puppy to complainant and dies within three days. Make sure you have their name in the title.


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## Pinky

I'm working on it now. I will post it on here before I post it to get other people to look at it. I tend to babble so I'll need you guys to reel me back in


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## LEUllman

Pinky:

You do not need to talk with them on the phone, no matter what they say. You communicate only via the USPS from now on. If they don't like it, tough. Remember, time is on your side here. The credit card company takes _your_ side in this dispute - it is up to the merchant to prove their case against you. You are required only to respond to anything the CC company asks; you are certainly not required to make things easier for the merchant!

Arizona has a puppy lemon law, which covers you. (Doesn't matter that the merchant is located in another state.) I found this PDF about Puppy Lemon Laws online. Here is something that caught my eye:



> The Attorney General (AG) of each state enforces that state’s consumer protection laws including puppy lemon laws. This is significant: the AG provides aggrieved buyers a huge shortcut around the arduous, expensive, and lengthy process of private litigation. An AG accepts claims directly from members of the public, charges no filing fee (unlike a court filing), and prosecutes the claim, obviating the need for buyers to hire a private attorney.


Finally, here's the complete text of the AZ Puppy Lemon Law. I'm no lawyer, but you don't have to be to read this and recognize that the seller in this case has clearly violated many provisions of the law. I think the Attorney General of AZ might find this interesting enough to take on the case; who knows, you might make it impossible for this evil outfit to do business in the state of AZ!


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## LEUllman

Oops, double post. Don't know how to delete.


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## Jessie's Mom

LEUllman said:


> Pinky:
> 
> I think the Attorney General of AZ might find this interesting enough to take on the case; who knows, you might make it impossible for this evil outfit to do business in the state of AZ!


your mouth to God's ears......let's start a riot!!! :ban:


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## Pinky

Definitely! This is what I found for them 

Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard

Would it be a consumer complaint? Bc it says "Consumer Fraud Complaint" I don't know if it would count as fraud since I did get a puppy, but certainly not in the health they said it would arrive.


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## jester's mom

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I don't know why I did not think of this before. www.sqeakywheel.com
> 
> You pay $5 and post your story. Then you send a copy to everyone whose email address you have and ask them to do the same. Every time someone reads it, the company receives and email telling them someone else has read it. A lot of people jujst go there to read the stories. A friend of mine has a friend who bought two toy poodles from a breeder in the US. They both arrived quite sick.. She posted the story on Squeakywheel and last I saw over 1,100 people had read her stroy. I am sure everyone here who has supported you would give you their email addy so you can pass the letter on to them so they in turn can send it out to everyone they know.


Great info!!!! Never heard of this before, but very interesting and great to know! And, yes, I saw your corrected link. 

Pinky, keep up the good work. You are working hard on this and that is great! I see many have also said, 'do not talk to them on the phone, send by mail". I cannot express how important this is, do not let them bully you into thinking you have to speak to them on the phone. You DO NOT! Send them a letter, certified is the best way to go. Any correspondence you need to have with any of them, make sure it is in writing. If they call you and you answer, do as another person has said, tell them you will not discuss this on the phone, please send you a letter. If they try to keep you on the phone, repeat to "write you a letter and you will respond" then HANG UP! You are in the right and they know you are going after them. Deal with your CC company and make sure that they retract payment and otherwise, all dealings with the broker/breeder/anyone to do with pup, should be certified mail on your side.

Best of luck with all. And I will send you my email address so you can add me to that Squeaky Wheel.


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## Pinky

I think under this they won't be able to do anything:

B. A contract or agreement under which a purchaser agrees to waive any rights under this article is null and void and is unenforceable.

That's the puppy lemon law.


Ugh! I'm still submitting it, though.


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## Pinky

It doesn't state in the contract that the puppy is to be healthy, BUT it says that the breeder is to deworm the puppy up to departure. I'm hoping the fact that she had roundworms is sufficient to fight this ridiculous contract.


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## Pinky

I e-mailed them asking their mailing address (mostly I wanted to see if the customer service e-mail did work for when I post on squeeky wheel) and she asked what I needed it for and I told her I'm reporting them to the Attorney General. I hope that makes them take this more seriously. Abusing my poor little Charlie...these bastards WILL pay.


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## Pinky

Great news you guys! The local news just e-mailed me back and they want to interview me about this! I'm sure it will be a short interview so I need to make sure to make it good.


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## CharismaticMillie

Pinky said:


> Great news you guys! The local news just e-mailed me back and they want to interview me about this! I'm sure it will be a short interview so I need to make sure to make it good.


That's awesome, Pinky!!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Pinky said:


> Great news you guys! The local news just e-mailed me back and they want to interview me about this! I'm sure it will be a short interview so I need to make sure to make it good.


YAY!!!!!!! The first piece of really good news since this entire mess began! Hopefully things are going to begin going your way now Pinky!


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## spoospirit

Pinky said:


> Great news you guys! The local news just e-mailed me back and they want to interview me about this! I'm sure it will be a short interview so I need to make sure to make it good.


_WAY TO GO PINKY.....YOU GO GIRL. Make sure you have everything chronicled!_


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## PaddleAddict

Pinky said:


> It doesn't state in the contract that the puppy is to be healthy, BUT it says that the breeder is to deworm the puppy up to departure. I'm hoping the fact that she had roundworms is sufficient to fight this ridiculous contract.


If even it's not stated in the contract that the puppy is to be healthy it's a reasonable expectation for the purchase of a live animal. The contract also didn't state that the puppy will have four legs, but that is a reasonable expectation.


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## Pinky

Do you think I should tell them (purebred breeders) that they will be on the news? I want the satisfaction of making them worry. Phoenix is not a small city so it will be seen by a lot of people. They never e-mailed me back after I asked for the address to report them to the attorney general (I already reported them, though. I used the address that populated when I reported them to the better business bureau) I'm looking at the videos they have online for this segment and they seem to be about 3 minutes. I want to make sure to talk about stopping puppy mills...what's the best advice I can give to quickly educate people? I know sharing my story can somewhat help but I feel like this is my chance to use the media to stop these kind of businesses and it's somehow legal - we as a public need to shut them down by not buying from them but I think a lot of people (like me) do so inadvertently. They screwed with the wrong person this time. I love my Charlie way too much to allow them to get away with this any longer.


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## KalaMama

Pinky said:


> Do you think I should tell them (purebred breeders) that they will be on the news? I want the satisfaction of making them worry. Phoenix is not a small city so it will be seen by a lot of people. They never e-mailed me back after I asked for the address to report them to the attorney general (I already reported them, though. I used the address that populated when I reported them to the better business bureau) I'm looking at the videos they have online for this segment and they seem to be about 3 minutes. I want to make sure to talk about stopping puppy mills...what's the best advice I can give to quickly educate people? I know sharing my story can somewhat help but I feel like this is my chance to use the media to stop these kind of businesses and it's somehow legal - we as a public need to shut them down by not buying from them but I think a lot of people (like me) do so inadvertently. They screwed with the wrong person this time. I love my Charlie way too much to allow them to get away with this any longer.


Have you told them that the only thing you would settle for would be your money back? Are you asking for vet expenses too or just purchase price and shipping? If it were me, I would probably contact them and be very civil and try to be emotionless and just let them know that I would be expecting my full funds for the purchase price of the pup returned or I would be seeking legal counsel. If they refuse, then just say "suit yourself" and end the conversation. I'm not sure what has already been said though-I will have to go back and read every post.


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## Pinky

In my claim to the attorney general I asked for all of my expenses to be refunded (puppy, vet bills, extra airport fee) my friends even said I should ask to be refunded for the food and toys and all of the stuff I had to buy her and can no longer use, but I'm pretty sure they won't refund me for that and I don't have the receipts for most of it. 

Their offer was to give me half off a new puppy from a different breeder, but this was done over the phone and to my friend who told him they will need to speak to me about that but they never called me. I think I'm going to e-mail the chick handling my case right now and tell her everything I want along with all of the agencies I have reported them to.


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## Marian

When I told a friend of mine (who is an attorney in NY) what happened, the first thing he suggested was going to the attorney general. So I'm glad to see that you've done that.

Now, please, stop communicating with those people. You will only aggravate your situation. *hugs*


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## Pinky

The Humane Society also e-mailed me back. They asked for pictures of Charlie and said they like to get stories like this out to educate the public. I e-mailed them pictures of Charlie and hopefully they will stop another tragedy like this happening to another family.


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## schpeckie

So sorry for your loss - my poodle passed away this past April, and reading your post - it still brings tears to my eyes. May you find the peace in your heart that someday you will be with Charlie at the Rainbow Bridge.


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## HiSocietyPoodle

*My condolences*

*Pinky *-- I'm so sorry about your loss. My condolences to you about your sweet little Charlie.

I have read many but not all of the postings. This is so sad and is one of the hardest thing you'll have to do in life. I'm sorry again for you loss. 

Charlie was an angel put into your life to help all the other helpless puppies. Stay strong and you can help save hundreds of other animals from the same fate by exposing these puppy mills and telling your story to the world. 

Do you know what illnesses she had? 
Do you have the autopsy report back with their findings?


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## Pinky

I did contact them one last time telling them that I wanted a refund for not only Charlie but her vet bills and the airport boarding fee they had me pay and will not accept anything other than that. I told them they were reported to The Humane Society, Better Business Bureau, Attorney General and my local news will be airing a segment about them. She is blowing up my phone now, but I e-mailed her saying I want all contact to be done via e-mail for record keeping purposes. Either she hasn't read my e-mail or she's ignoring it bc she's called me 3 times alone while I've been writing this post.


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## schnauzerpoodle

Good job, Pinky. Yes, don't talk on the phone w/ these people. It's either email or certified mail or talk to your lawyer.


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## Pinky

Thank you, HiSociety. It has been one of the most painful experiences of my life but I have learned a LOT from it and I am going to make sure EVERYONE I know can learn from my experience. They weren't able to do an autopsy bc her body was frozen too long. She had roundworms and the bloodwork showed her red and white cell blood count was low and most of her organs were failing.


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## CelticKitti

Pinky, I think we're about the same age. And let me tell you, I'm not sure I would have been able to do what you are doing if I was in your shoes! You have come a long way from when you first joined on here. I am so very proud of you!! Stick to your guns!! These people want you to back down. Thats what they count on. 

I think she's read the email! I think she is ignoring the written communication part.


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## Pinky

Ugh! I'm so mad! They called me from an area code that's local so I answered thinking it was someone I know, obviously. She said they'll refund me for the puppy but not the vet bills bc I killed her by neglecting her. Yeah, she actually had the nerve to straight up tell me that I killed Charlie bc I declined her treatment. I told her I didn't want to talk to her and they've been reported and she said their attorneys will handle it but now I won't get anything.


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## Pinky

She told me she died in her cage probably from a seizure bc I didn't take her to a 24 hour clinic. I know she's trying to mess with my emotions, but she succeeded. I'm proud of myself for not crying on the phone with her, but that REALLY hurt. What a low blow and what a thing to say to someone whose puppy just died bc they're selling sick puppies. Ugh I hate this chick.


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## CelticKitti

Make sure you write down, the number they called from, the time, what she said. DOCUMENT!! Just the facts. This way you have a record if you need it. 

Personally I think they are just trying to get out of this situation by paying you the least amount of money possible. Again they are trying to intimidate you. 

I'm very sorry, but you did NOT kill her. You spent a ton of effort/money to save her. No healthy puppy should be in the emergency vet within 48 hours of leaving the breeder!


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## Pinky

Thanks, Celtic. And thanks for your previous post as well. I can't help but wonder if I had been able to afford to take her to a 24 hour clinic if she would have lived. But the fact remains that I shouldn't have been put in that situation to begin with if they sent a healthy puppy. She said they have proof that when Charlie left she didn't have any worms and this is normal for puppies to have. Yeah, but is it normal for puppies to die within 3 days of receiving them? I wish I hadn't answered. They're so conniving changing their number to a local number even after I told them I didn't want to talk to them on the phone.


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## puppylove

Hang in there girl. Don't talk to them! They will say anything to make you mad enough to say just the wrong thing. Just hang up that phone. And document the time and what they said. Now it's turning into harassment too.


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## Pinky

She said their lawyers will handle the case from here on out so she won't be contacting me anymore. Yeah, I'm sure their expensive lawyers will find a way to get out of this. It's just so unfair! What kind of world do we live in that this happens and people are ENABLING this? It's disgusting. So disgusting.


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## Marian

I hate her too, Pinky. The only reason anyone should be taking a newly acquired puppy to the vet is for an initial exam--not to a 24 hour emergency vet. 

I think the general public and law enforcement are on your side. I would think that the credibility of these people is already badly damaged from cases before yours (because you aren't the first and you won't be the last, unfortunately).

There is no love for these greedy people who do nothing but cause heartache and misery while they pad their own fat pockets. There will be a special place in Hell for them.


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## puppylove

And especially don't talk to her lawyers. They know all the tricks. Tell them to do all their communication by mail. And then just hang up.


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## spoospirit

pinky said:


> she said they have proof that when charlie left she didn't have any worms and this is normal for puppies to have.


_it is impossible for a puppy to have no worms when it leaves and have them when it gets to you!!!!

Do not talk to their lawyers at all!!
_


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## CharismaticMillie

CelticKitti said:


> Make sure you write down, the number they called from, the time, what she said. DOCUMENT!! Just the facts. This way you have a record if you need it.
> 
> Personally I think they are just trying to get out of this situation by paying you the least amount of money possible. Again they are trying to intimidate you.
> 
> I'm very sorry, but you did NOT kill her. You spent a ton of effort/money to save her. No healthy puppy should be in the emergency vet within 48 hours of leaving the breeder!


YES - they are offering to REFUND the cost of the puppy because they KNOW now that they are in a situation where they might lose MUCH more than that....

Keep them worrying, Pinky! I hope something positive comes out of this tragedy!


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## Pinky

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I caught her in a lie bc she mentioned something about refunding vet bills. I told her she just said it's in the contract that they don't refund vet bills but she said if Charlie was alive they would but since she died they won't. She tried making me seem like a bad owner. She said the breeder doesn't WANT to send me another puppy so that's why they're willing to refund me. This contradicts her previous story that the puppy would come from a different breeder. Making it sound like I'm such a horrible owner that they don't even want one of their puppies to be with me. Ugh! My feelings are so hurt. I need to shake it off.


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## Chagall's mom

Pinky said:


> Great news you guys! The local news just e-mailed me back and they want to interview me about this! I'm sure it will be a short interview so I need to make sure to make it good.


Dear Pinky,
This just proves to me that Charlie was put in your capable, loving hands so the two of you could fight "the good fight" on behalf of all the puppies and dogs who suffer at the hands of unscrupulous people. You are wise and strong beyond your chronological age. Your commitment to seeing justice done makes me so very, very proud of you! Again I join all the others in saying how terribly saddened I am to know the pain you've been handed, but boy oh boy, those jerks messed with the wrong poodle mama! Whatever we PF members can do to help, we're in it with you for the long haul. Thank you for being so brave, so loving, so smart. One day you are going to be THE MOST AMAZING poodle mom to a lively, healthy, long-lived poo--I just know it!!


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## spoospirit

Pinky said:


> Oh, and I forgot to mention that I caught her in a lie bc she mentioned something about refunding vet bills. I told her she just said it's in the contract that they don't refund vet bills but she said if Charlie was alive they would but since she died they won't. She tried making me seem like a bad owner. She said the breeder doesn't WANT to send me another puppy so that's why they're willing to refund me. This contradicts her previous story that the puppy would come from a different breeder. Making it sound like I'm such a horrible owner that they don't even want one of their puppies to be with me. Ugh! My feelings are so hurt. I need to shake it off.


_STOP TALKING TO THESE PEOPLE! You're going to get into a mess if you continue to._


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## Pinky

Spoo, I didn't talk to them again. I was referring to the same conversation when they tricked me by calling me from a local number. My mom also just told me that they've been calling the house phone. We don't ever answer our landline so they've just been leaving messages on there but she and my brother know not to talk to them. I called my credit card and told them that they are harrassing me and to confirm they received my dispute form since it isn't technically in disputes until they receive my fax and they have. I told them they offered to refund me for the puppy minus the taxes and airfare and I won't accept that so my account has been notated with that refusal which I have the right to refuse. I also told her I will no longer be accepting any calls from them and they said they can handle it from here since they've received my fax.

Chagall'sMom, thank you very much for your sweet post. It made me feel a little better, so truly thank you. She made me doubt myself, but I will not give up this fight!


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## penny_ann

Happy to hear your local news is getting involved.


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## spoospirit

Pinky said:


> Spoo, I didn't talk to them again. I was referring to the same conversation when they tricked me by calling me from a local number. My mom also just told me that they've been calling the house phone. We don't ever answer our landline so they've just been leaving messages on there but she and my brother know not to talk to them. I called my credit card and told them that they are harrassing me and to confirm they received my dispute form since it isn't technically in disputes until they receive my fax and they have. I told them they offered to refund me for the puppy minus the taxes and airfare and I won't accept that so my account has been notated with that refusal which I have the right to refuse. I also told her I will no longer be accepting any calls from them and they said they can handle it from here since they've received my fax.
> 
> Chagall'sMom, thank you very much for your sweet post. It made me feel a little better, so truly thank you. She made me doubt myself, but I will not give up this fight!


_My sincere apologies, Pinky. I must have misread your post. My bad! 

I am so happy to hear that you are no longer accepting calls from them and no one else is either. Now they can't play on your emotions anymore. You have suffered enough already. Don't let any of them make you doubt yourself. Actually, no one can make you do anything if you don't let them. The power is in your hands to control that._

_That is fabulous news. Now they can fight the fight for you.

You are truly an amazing person, Pinky, and I am willing with all my heart that you are going to win this battle.
_


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## 1Jurisdiva

You are doing great - I just wanted to add that you should not let the credit company know what offers the brokers are giving you - it really isn't their business, so why give them additional information? I would keep the credit dispute for recovery of the puppy price separate from any civil suit you have to recover the vet bills.


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## schnauzerpoodle

Pinky, if they called again and you somehow pick up the phone, just state calmly that you have nothing to talk to them and tell them to snail mail everything to you instead.

You are handling this very well. They know they are at fault and that's why they keep offering you a 'better' deal. They know they are at fault and that's why they are putting the blame on you. You didn't kill Charlie. You didn't kill your little puppy.


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## LEUllman

Pinky:

First, you asked about what to say to the news station. Here's what I recommend - emphasize that puppy mills, being squeezed by Puppy Lemon Laws and bad press all over the US, have come up with a new scheme that uses the internet as a front. That's the new wrinkle here, and new things are what the "news" likes to report. (They've probably already done a story about puppy mills.) Explain that Pure Bred Breeders is a brokerage or front for literally hundreds of websites selling just about every breed, nationwide. The sites might look a little different, but they all have the same 800 number and are all run by the same LLC. Give them the 800 number I gave you in an earlier post, and let them Google it for themselves. It instantly makes the point - if not from puppy mills, where are all these dogs coming from?

Next, you aren't going to be hearing from their "lawyers." Think about it. What exactly are they going to do to you?

Finally, the AZ Puppy Lemon law is quite explicit:



> 44-1799.05. Purchaser remedies for sale of unfit cats or dogs; requirements; exceptions
> 
> A. A cat or dog that is purchased from a pet dealer is considered to be unfit for sale if either of the following applies:
> 
> 1. Within fifteen days after the purchaser takes possession of the animal, a veterinarian who is licensed pursuant to title 32, chapter 21, states in writing that in the veterinarian's opinion the cat or dog has become ill or otherwise symptomatic due to any illness, injury or other defect that existed in the animal before the purchaser took possession of the animal.
> 2. Within sixty days after the purchaser takes possession of the animal, a veterinarian who is licensed pursuant to title 32, chapter 21 states in writing that the animal has a congenital or hereditary condition that adversely affects the health of the animal or that requires or is likely to require hospitalization or nonelective surgical procedures.


Item #1 above certainly applies here, and that's all that's required for the Law to take effect.



> 44-1799.07. Presumption of illness
> 
> A. It is a rebuttable presumption that an illness or a congenital or hereditary defect existed at the time of sale if the cat or dog dies within fifteen days after the purchaser takes possession of the cat or dog.


According to Wikipedia, a "rebuttable presumption" means an "assumption made by a court, one that is taken to be true unless someone comes forward to contest it and prove otherwise." That means they are going to attempt to show that you were negligent in your care. But you know that already. You need to have signed, official copies of all the records from the vets you took Charlie to in your hands, along with receipts. That you "refused" treatment at one facility and transferred Charlie to another only shows that you were doing everything within your means to deal with the untenable situation that _they_ thrust you into. 

Once this hits the media, how do you think they are going to look, coming after you? Who will have more credibility - the heartbroken recipient of a dying puppy, or the shady front for a nationwide network of puppy mills, one that has had dozens of complaints filed against them in multiple states, not to mention a "C-" grade from the BBB. (For the BBB, a grade of C- might as well be an F.)

In the end, you might or might not get your money back. That sucks, for sure. But whatever happens, if you can get the word out about the perils of buying a puppy from an internet brokerage, you will have won, big time.


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## Margotsmom

I wanted to bring this information to your attention that some puppied died on their way by air from OKLAHOMA to Chicago. There may (I don't know but...) be a connection and if there is I am sure the media would love to break that news story. And since it happened on an American Airlines plane perhaps AA would also help find out who was responsible. This is all tragic, don't get me wrong, it troubles me deeply that Pinkie's dog died and that these dogs have died, but my focus is on making it stop so I have no time for emotion. 
Dead Puppies Arrive On American Airlines Flight - cbs2chicago.com


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## Pinky

LEUllman said:


> In the end, you might or might not get your money back. That sucks, for sure. But whatever happens, if you can get the word out about the perils of buying a puppy from an internet brokerage, you will have won, big time.


Absolutely. That is exactly what I intend on doing. Screw the money, that's on me for making an uneducated purchase but I'm sure as hell going to tarnish their name. I am definitely going to stress not to ever buy a puppy online and that all they are is a brokerage. 

I didn't read this:

A. It is a rebuttable presumption that an illness or a congenital or hereditary defect existed at the time of sale if the cat or dog dies within fifteen days after the purchaser takes possession of the cat or dog. 

so thanks for bringing that to my attention. They're screwed. They know it, I know it and I will do all I can to make sure this story gets told. From what I was reading about puppy mills I guess they are illegal, but they have a loophole with selling online bc the law was written before the internet was around so they couldn't predict this kind of activity. Am I understanding this correctly? Something needs to be done about this. I feel like nothing I do will be enough until all puppy mills are shut down but I know that won't happen. The people that do this crap are so horrible.


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## Margotsmom

Pinky - I hope you saw my above post. I also hope you will get in touch with Best Friends Animal Sanctuary. These people are 1) honest no hidden agenda people and 2) have already been involved in the Puppy mill issues for literally years. Why reinvent a wheel when you can get help and knowledge from an existing group? They can help you. They are a very well known large entity. They started the Puppies Aren't Products campaign. Get them your info so they can use it as likely additional factual info against the responsible parties. If Pinky is no longer reading anything I am writing I am hoping someone else here will get this across. Did you see how many puppies were on that American Airlines plane? Where do that many puppies come from other than brokers and mills?????????


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## Jessie's Mom

Pinky said:


> I did contact them one last time telling them that I wanted a refund for not only Charlie but her vet bills and the airport boarding fee they had me pay and will not accept anything other than that. I told them they were reported to The Humane Society, Better Business Bureau, Attorney General and my local news will be airing a segment about them. She is blowing up my phone now, but I e-mailed her saying I want all contact to be done via e-mail for record keeping purposes. Either she hasn't read my e-mail or she's ignoring it bc she's called me 3 times alone while I've been writing this post.


yea !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:clap2: i love it how you are moving forward like a steam engine in full throttle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! keep it up, jess.....this will be your healing!!!!!!!!! i can't even keep up with all the posts!!!! this site is full of amazing people !!!!!!


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## faerie

look at you go!

now document every time she calls.


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## Jessie's Mom

Pinky said:


> Oh, and I forgot to mention that I caught her in a lie bc she mentioned something about refunding vet bills. I told her she just said it's in the contract that they don't refund vet bills but she said if Charlie was alive they would but since she died they won't. She tried making me seem like a bad owner. She said the breeder doesn't WANT to send me another puppy so that's why they're willing to refund me. This contradicts her previous story that the puppy would come from a different breeder. Making it sound like I'm such a horrible owner that they don't even want one of their puppies to be with me. Ugh! My feelings are so hurt. I need to shake it off.


i hope you realize you have these people tripping all over themselve - they've been through this before, obviously !!! most people would've caved by now!! NOT OUR PINKY !!


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## FozziesMom

Hell hath no fury like a woman whose dog has been messed with!

Go Pinky Go!


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## whitepoodles

FozziesMom said:


> Hell hath no fury like a woman whose dog has been messed with!
> 
> Go Pinky Go!


HAAAA !!! So true !


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## whitepoodles

I admire fiesty people who know when they are right, and respect the ones who fight for a good cause against some odds.

I will put on my boxing gloves and go to war, legally as well with anyone who conducts themselves in the manner that Pinky's breeder conducted herself and still does inspite of her lack of ethics staring her in her face. 
She has no leg to stand on so I say, GO get'em pinky !


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## kodabear

I am so sorry !!!!


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## Pinky

Heck yes! I'm totally in fight mode! One of my friends said they're probably used to people caving in and taking the replacement puppy bc it's mostly parents buying from them and they don't want to disappoint their kids but they're not used to people refusing a replacement puppy and dragging their name through the dirt. I also updated my BBB complaint saying their customer service team harassed me yesterday. 

I did read your link, perhaps I misunderstood it but I took it as it was the airlines fault? I didn't know Tulsa was a big place for puppy mills..interesting bc Charlie came from Oklahoma. Makes me sick. I e-mailed best friends and hopefully they get back to me. I read their Puppies Aren't Products page but it didn't say anything about contacting them so I just e-mailed their info e-mail so they can direct me as to who I need to speak to and what to do to aid in getting these monsters shut down.


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## schnauzerpoodle

I can totally feel your feisty vibe all the way here!!! That's a good thing, Pinky. It just makes me sick (1) how these people can treat innocent animals the way they do and (2) how these people try to put the blame on a vulnerable pet owner.

I am volunteering at a public library (maintaining their website). I talked to some people there and we are thinking that we can create a webpage educating potential pet owners. The Children Librarians there also think they can spread out the idea of puppy mills to children during storytelling sessions.

We know that we can't shut them all down right at once but at least we are doing something, aren't we?


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## HiSocietyPoodle

*We all care how you are doing!*

Pinky I hope you are feeling/coping with your loss with each passing day a little better. I feel your pain. And, I sort of know what it feels like to have your heart cut out and handed to you by unscrupulous people.

Years ago I had a dog that was raped by another neighborhood dog while she was in heat. The male dog scaled a 6ft fence when my bitch was in heat and had sex with her. I tried everything but couldn't break them apart while in the act.

I was told by someone that if my dog has a mutt litter that AKC would never recognize her pedigree as purebred. (I later found out that wasn't true) And a Vet talked me into having the puppies aborted., but instead the Vet spade my dog while she was in heat and killed her. 

I went nuts when they called me and said my dog died from an allergic reaction to the anesthesia. I didn't buy that. I cried all night and called every 24 hour vet hospital between miami and west palm beach and spoke to everyone that would listen to me in the middle of the night. They said a dog doesn't die from anesthesia reaction 8 hours later.

At 6 a.m. I found a Vet in Fort Lauderdale that answered the phone and told me to go pick up my dogs body and bring it to her and she would do an autopsy to find the true cause. I did what she said, the Vet that killed my dog bullies me wanting me to pay them for the spade. I refused. The Vet gave me my 50lb dog frozen hard in a large black garbage bag. As he put her body in the trunk of my car I let him know I was going to do everything I could to see to it his career was ruined and no one else would feel the pain I was in cause of him. 

The good Vet had to thaw out my dogs frozen body for an entire day so that she could perform the autopsy. The Vet prepared me for what I was next about to do before hand and she was right. One of the hardest things I had to do was identify my dead dogs frozen body when she cut open the black garbage bag. The look on my sweet loving dogs face was pure pain and suffering. It was because the other/bad Vet never tied off her main uterine stump and my dog bled to death.

I later sued the butcher Vet and collected the full price I paid for the dog and my legal fees. I found a lawyer that fought for animal rights (although there were no real laws to protect animals he was a crusader on their behalf and an animal lover when he wasn't a lawyer). And as fate would have it the Vet had many other complaints and had killed about 4 or 5 other dogs cause he was inept and went out of business by the time I settled the legal case. The ashes of my dog are now in a earn. And, I will never forget the experience... but I believe all the complaining and reporting I did about this Vet helped save other animals lives.

So Pinky stay strong. Keep up the good fight. And know how much all of us here support and care about you.

There is an old quote I want to share with you, it goes like this...

*"Time is a physician that heals every grief." ~DIPHILUS*


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## whitepoodles

. They said a dog doesn't die from anesthesia reaction 8 hours later.

I know quite a fair amount about veterinary medicine as my vet and I are very friendly and discuss medicine quite a bit . I also read alot about medicien in general.
Vets today use Isuflorane anaesthetic and it is mild .. there is no reason why a dog who is properly anaesthesized die due to anaesthetic.
BUT>.... having said this, a dog or human can die on the surgical table if the amount of anaesthesia administered to them does not follow in amount to the patient's dog or human's weight. Quantity and amount of anaesthetic depends on the weight of the dog or human prior to surgical intervention. In human medicine, there is such a specialty as anaesthesiologist.. this is the doctor who monitors the amount of anaesthesia given to each patient in the OR on the surgical table. Same with a vet, if he is not well versed in anaesthesia amounts he can cause death related to overdose of anaesthetic.
It could be that given the vet that treated your dog was so inept and incompetent he may have caused your dog's demise due strictly to his lack of knowledge of the amount of anaesthesia to administer to your dog based on his weight and has made a mistake which cost your dog his life unfortunately. I wonder what did the autopsy say? Sorry for your loss very sad story indeed.


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## HiSocietyPoodle

*whitepoodles* -- You might have missed that part. Oops... my post was kind of long. I don't want to get off topic I will be quick. This tread is about Charlie and Pinky...

But, I had a full autopsy performed by a qualified Vet that detailed in a very comprehensive autopsy report and determined the cause of death.


HiSocietyPoodle said:


> It was because the other/bad Vet never tied off her main uterine stump and my dog bled to death.


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## Jessie's Mom

HiSocietyPoodle said:


> *whitepoodles*
> 
> But, I had a full autopsy performed by a qualified Vet that detailed in a very comprehensive autopsy report and determined the cause of death.


i don't want to go off the topic either which is about pinky & charlie, however, i have to say your story is so very sad. i worked for a vet for 8 years. the hospital i use is owned by a vet that i worked with and all his drs are great - I QUESTION EVERYTHING. we have a joke that i have become the annoying client we use to talk about back in the days when i worked as a vet tech. you have to ask & re-ask. that being said, i think this story is another motivating story to help pinky keep up the good work and not tire until she feels she's done charlie and so many thousands of other dogs justice.


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## fjm

Pinky, can I just say how very, very proud I am of you. I can't believe how much you have achieved already in these last few days, especially with the grief of Charlie's death, and the flak from the broker to cope with. Keep up the pressure - we are with you all the way.


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## whitepoodles

HiSocietyPoodle;109093 said:


> *whitepoodles* -- You might have missed that part. Oops... my post was kind of long. I don't want to get off topic I will be quick. This tread is about Charlie and Pinky...
> 
> 
> OOOOPS sorry for this guys.. I MUST stop posting so late at night.. my brain is not in full gear in those hours..


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## Pinky

HiSociety, what a heartbreaking story! I am so sorry. Ugh I don't get how vets can be so incompetent. They're supposed to save lives, not do this to them!

I just got through with my interview. I'm kind of disappointed in myself bc I was really nervous and you can tell and I forgot to say a lot of stuff. I did stress the importance of never buying a puppy online and that the only way to stop puppy mills is to stop buying puppies from them so hopefully they air that part. They filmed me on the website and filmed the testimonials that Kim Kardashian, Miley Cyrus and Rosie O'Donnel have on there. I doubt they'll be phased by a Phoenix station putting that on a 3 minute segment but hopefully it will teach people not to trust celebrity endorsements bc I know I didn't learn that lesson until Charlie. 

The manager from Purebred Breeders is calling me now. I e-mailed her saying I do not wish to speak to them, reiterated the amount I want to be refunded and will not accept anything less. I did have to give them permission to speak to the reporter though but I warned her how they're trying to make it my fault when it's not.


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## Skye

Pinky, you go girl!!! You need to be proud of yourself for the way you are handling this situation. Please post the link to your interview once it's aired!


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## schnauzerpoodle

Don't worry about the interview, Pinky. Everyone will be surprised if you could go in and tell every single bit of details in a very organized way. It would sound so rehearsed!! You made your point, i.e. how heartbreaking it can be to get a puppy from these heartless people because they do NOT care about any living creature at all.

You are handling this really well. Show them you are a different person now - you are not the girl who trusted them and bought a puppy from them. You are now a strong young woman who knows what to do when fighting for justice.


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## Pinky

This is the e-mail the manager just sent me:

I am sorry for the loss of the puppy - we as a company do not want any unhappy customers or sick puppies to go out. Unfortunately, small breed puppies require a significant amount of care (like a preemie baby) over large breed dogs because they are prone to hypoglycemia if not properly maintained. Per our contract we do not cover hypoglycemia due to this reason and that is why we send out emails and verbally go over with the customers, proper feeding guidelines before receiving their puppy so they understand the importance of maintaining the frequent feeding schedule. Our veterinarian has reviewed the medical records and does not mind talking to the reporter on her findings. It is unfortunate for you to have to go through this and that is why we are willing to refund you the price of the puppy even though it is clearly stated in our contract that we do not cover veterinary bills - especially related to hypoglycemia since it is the responsibility of the owner to make sure their puppy maintains adequate glucose levels.

Please respond to this email if you wish to accept the refund of the puppy price so that we can begin processing it.

Umm ok, her organs were failing..how is that related to hypoglycemia? And she was hospitalized the 2 days before she died, frequently fed and on an IV so that had nothing to do with her dying. Should I respond saying this or just let it be?


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## Marian

This says that hypoglycemia can be caused by stress--hmmm, could flying in a cargo hold all by yourself be a cause of stress? And look at the second paragraph--the fact that she would not eat was most likely due to the stress of the flight. 

I wish I could help you with whether or not to respond to that email. I wish you had an attorney.



> Causes
> Transient juvenile hypoglycemia is most often caused by a puppy going too long between meals. Stress, cold, malnutrition, excessive exercise and intestinal parasites are also common causes of transient juvenile hypoglycemia. Symptoms depend upon how quickly and how low the blood sugar concentration drops in a puppy.
> 
> 
> Read more: Signs of Hypoglycemia in Puppies | eHow.com Signs of Hypoglycemia in Puppies | eHow.com





> Symptoms
> 
> *Additional symptoms can include a loss of appetite*, lack of coordination, trembling, muscle twitching, unusual behavior and dilated pupils. If your suspect your puppy is suffering from hypoglycemia but he is not exhibiting noticeable symptoms, look at his gums. A puppy's gums are normally a red to bright pink color--the same as yours. However, if a puppy is suffering from hypoglycemia, his gums are pale pink to white.


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## Pinky

This is what their contract says about it:

Seller does not guarantee against low-blood sugar (Hypoglycemia), or any other non-life threatening illnesses common to puppies

so isn't that saying that hypoglycemia wouldn't cause her to die? Although the stuff I'm reading says if gone untreated it can lead to death, but she was treated for it.


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## Marian

Without the necropsy results, it's impossible to say what actually killed her. It may not have been one single event, but a cumulative result beginning with her not being in the best health in the first place.

For them to try and place the blame on you is just a defensive tactic. That contract would probably not hold up in court if evidence was produced that the puppy was not as healthy as their "vet certificate" stated.


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## Feralpudel

I know a little bit about hypoglycemia because I had a diabetic cat, and had to watch for and quickly treat it when I saw the signs. It has to be treated ASAP because the one organ that HAS to have glucose is the brain. From my experience, recovery is pretty dramatic once I could get some sugar into her (I would rub honey or syrup on her mouth and gums). I would then give her some regular food and she would be fine. 

When hypoglycemia is severe, they can have seizures--that only happpened to me once. But I don't think it causes organ failure in other organs. Come to think of it, didn't Sunny Von Bulow live for years in a coma after being injected with an overdose of insulin (thus inducing severe hypoglycemia that put her in a coma)?


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## Pinky

Her blood sugar was low when I took her in on Thursday, but she was on an IV all day that day along with the following day so I would think hypoglycemia is out of the question, but reading over her medical reports I don't see where they tested her for it again. Even so, though, I took her to the vet like what else am I expected to do? I gave her the Nutri Cal and I syringe fed her since she wouldn't eat on her own..like what else could I have possibly done to keep her alive? 

I've called about 6 different firms and none of them do pro bono work. Ugh I just want to cry.


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## Feralpudel

Pinky said:


> Please respond to this email if you wish to accept the refund of the puppy price so that we can begin processing it.
> 
> Umm ok, her organs were failing..how is that related to hypoglycemia? And she was hospitalized the 2 days before she died, frequently fed and on an IV so that had nothing to do with her dying. Should I respond saying this or just let it be?


I would not respond until you decide what you want to do from here. You may have to fight a lot more to get any more money out of them, but it is hard to know. Others on this list might be able to give you better legal/tactical advice. But this is also about you deciding when it is time to put this behind you. 

I see two separate issues here: one is getting some financial recompense from those horrible people. You have to decide for yourself what you are prepared to settle for, and at what point it becomes too costly to you, in energy and money, to keep fighting. The second is trying to make sure that Charlie did not die in vain by educating others about how not to buy a puppy. It sounds like you are well on your way there with the TV story. 

Do the TV people actually negotiate on your behalf regarding a consumer complaint? Did they ask you what sort of financial compensation would make you financially whole (e.g., purchase price plus vet costs)? If so, this may be why the broker is trying to settle before the reporter comes along and turns up the heat.


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## Pinky

That's what the TV people are supposed to do. They did ask what compensation I'm looking for and I told them I want the whole amount I paid for Charlie back along with her vet bills. It's not like I'm not losing any money - I have clothes, toys, food and all of the necessities that I can no longer use. That stuff adds up and it's well over $100 on that alone.


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## Feralpudel

OK, then sit tight and DON'T talk/email further with the broker!!! I think this is why they are trying to settle quickly with you...they want to be able to tell the reporter that you settled with them. The TV station might be able to get more out of them AND it will be a much more interesting story for them (and less comfortable for the broker) if you haven't settled with the broker. 

Go back and read some of the excellent legal advice you have gotten from others on this list. I am feeling out of my depth here, but that is my sense of why they are suddenly offering you a full refund on the purchase price.


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## Pinky

True. Plus, if they so believe it's my fault she died then why refund me? A holes. Ugh I want to put them out of business so badly!


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## HiSocietyPoodle

*Legal Help*

Pinky -- Look for a lawyer that is an animal rights activist. 

That is how I found the lawyer that help me when the Vet butcher mt dog. The lawyer was referred to me from another lawyer that knew this guy was an animal lover and was an activist.

It wasn't easy finding a lawyer. I went name by name though the phone book calling everyone crying. But I kept asking the lawyers that I did speak with, if they couldn't help me did they know someone that could. That another key. They will give you a name of a lawyer-friend buddy of a lawyer-friend, and as you pour your heart out for help and you will eventually find someone that will help. If you are young and a teenager tell them that your a kid. And, let them know you are in the middle of a TV news story and need representation. Lawyers love to get their faces on TV news its great publicity and PR to get notoriety. 

Another key is call around some of the animal groups and see if they have a lawyer they know. Call animal shelters and ask if they know or have a lawyer that they can refer that does animal cases? Call animal control. Call PETA. Call the ASPCA. Try everyone in the phone book. BUT, don't call pet stores. 

Its not going to be easy cause its a weekend and most lawyers are gone until Monday.

As far as my case I was not able to collect anymore than the cost of the dog and some legal fees. The suit took a year or so. I wasn't able to get pain and suffering, and the vet bill I refused to pay him.


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## Chagall's mom

*Pinky*, you are doing a masterful job of fighting to prevent other pet owners and precious dogs from suffering the pain you know all too well. I just know Charlie is up in the clouds running around and smiling down on you, wagging her sweet little tail. I want to *THANK YOU *for holding it together during a time of such heartache and doing so much for our canine friends.

You truly wow me with what you've accomplished in getting the media coverage and that dishonest broker's attention. You're also continuing to get really great advice here. Listen to what people are suggesting. Don't talk to the broker. Do seek out an animal activist lawyer. Share you story, perhaps at school or clubs or community groups. Write an article about your experience and submit it to your school paper and other places. Know that you are a true crusader for animal rights now and others will get strength from you and will join the fight. 

You are one heck of remarkable young person to care so deeply and do so much. You're my hero! Take care of yourself and know you're in a big "pack" now, poodle lovers all over the world are rooting for you.


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## Pinky

Thank you HiSociety and Chagall for your sweet messages. 

I found a lawyer! I went on the AZ Bar website and I emailed like 40 of the animal lawyers on there. One e-mailed me back and said he was saddened by my story and asked for more information so he can advise me as what to do next. It's weird bc I didn't say she was a poodle in my e-mail, just that I bought a puppy from a puppy mill and he said he bought a mini poodle from a puppy mill a long time ago that is now deceased but he had her for almost 20 years. I just took that he's a poodle owner himself as a good sign  Hopefully he can find a way to get these bastards back.


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## schnauzerpoodle

That's great, Pinky! I hope this lawyer could do something for you and little Charlie. Don't forget to keep us updated.


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## Jessie's Mom

pinky - so proud of you. i hope you are very proud of yourself. the doors just keep opening for you !!! you are an amazing person, look at what you've been through these last 2 weeks. i know, feels like a lifetime, but it is only 2 weeks. you've grown from a person afraid of a puppy to a crusader for justice.

i don't have the experience or knowledge to help you like many of the others on this forum have, but i here in the background checking this thread everyday and reading all the posts. 

God bless you and your efforts, pinky. i pray you see all the fruits of your labor.

ann marie


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## CelticKitti

Go Pinky!!! He will be the one to tell you if that "contract" is legal. I'm guessing it's not. I'm so glad you found someone to help you, and a poodle lover at that! Yes please keep us updated!


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## Chagall's mom

*Way to go PINKY!! You are such a dynamo!! I just knew you'd go the distance in seeking out justice and you are really making tremendous strides. So delighted to see your valiant effort getting encouragement and support. I think I'm going to make up some "Pinky is Charlie's Angel" tee-shirts!! Keep at it, sugar, you will prevail!*


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## Margotsmom

Please don't call/contact PETA, those people are so screwed up whgo knows what they would do in the name of "Helping".


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## Pinky

Lol at the Charlie's Angel shirt. So cute!

So the news reporter called me yeseterday to tell me that Purebred is giving me a full refund - total price of the puppy, vet bills and the airport boarding fee. She advised I follow up with them and I certainly don't trust them since they lie to me all the time so I e-mailed the manager and told her I wanted in writing the amount of the refund and method and today someone else e-mailed me asking I call or e-mail them to discuss how else they could have helped me with educating me about hypoglycemia so they can prevent this from happening. Are you kidding me? They are STILL trying to put this on me. Ugh! This is the stupid release I have to sign if I want my money back..I'm going to e-mail it to the lawyer helping me but thought I'd let you guys read it too to determine if I should sign it:

FULL AND FINAL RELEASE OF ALL CLAIMS: Know All Men By These Presents, that theUndersigned do(es) hereby acknowledge a payment for $2,447.24 which payment is accepted in fullcompromise settlement and satisfaction of, and as sole consideration for the final release and discharge of,all actions, claims and demands whatsoever, that now exist, or may hereafter accrue, against PurebredBreeders, LLC and any other person, corporation, association or partnership charged with responsibility forinjuries to the person and property of the Undersigned, and the consequences flowing therefore, as theresult of the purchase of a Toy Poodle, Puppy ID 183761on 7/19/2010.I acknowledge that I received a Toy Poodle in the evening of 7/27/10 which appeared healthy upon receipt.Prior to receiving the puppy, I was advised both in written form and verbally about hypoglycemia, theclinical signs (loss of appetite, lethargy and weakness), and how to help prevent it. I was further advised togive Nutri-Cal or Nutri-Stat every 3-5 hours, including overnight, for at least 2 days and be sure that thepuppy was eating and drinking regularly to avoid hypoglycemic conditions. The day after arrival (7/28/10),the puppy appeared to not be interested in food or water and began having diarrhea. I took the puppy on thesecond day after arrival (7/29/10) to Banfield Hospital where the puppy was diagnosed with hypoglycemiaand placed on fluids and intravenous dextrose (sugar). The puppy was sent home that night withinstructions on giving Nutrical and force feeding the puppy if necessary.The next morning (7/30/10), I returned to Banfield for a recheck as the puppy seemed to be getting worse. Ideclined bloodwork at the time and the puppy was treated with fluids for a few hours. At 3:30pm the puppywas discharged and I decided to bring the puppy elsewhere for medical care. I brought the puppy to SantisPet Clinic that night where the fluids were restarted to treat the hypoglycemic conditions. Despite the factthat Santis Pet Clinic advised that they did not have overnight care; I decided to leave the puppy thererather than transfer the puppy to an overnight emergency clinic where the puppy could be monitored. Thepuppy stayed the night at the clinic unattended and unfortunately passed away when the hospital opened thenext day (7/31/10)The parties are desirous of fully and finally resolving all of their disputes, including any claims which wereraised or could have been raised in a Lawsuit, on the terms set forth in this agreement.NOW THEREFORE, in consideration of the aforesaid Recitals (which are hereby incorporated into andshall be deemed a part of this Agreement), the covenants and agreements hereinafter set forth, and othergood and valuable consideration, the receipt and sufficiency of which are hereby acknowledged by allparties, it is agreed by and among the parties hereto as follows:IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the parties hereto have executed this Agreement as of the ____ day ofAugust, 2010.

Ugh! First of all, she did not appear healthy when she arrived. But obviously I didn't know her yet so how was I to know that the fact that she wasn't vivacious meant something was wrong - as I posted on that inital thread when I got her I thought she just wasn't a hyper puppy. And she didn't die bc of the hypoglycemia. And what puppy needs to be hospitalized at all, never mind overnight, after just getting home?! Like do they seriously not see anything wrong with that picture? And I reported the vet so I don't know if this is saying that I can't pursue that. The paperwork has already been turned in so I don't know what they expect me to do. He still needs to be investigated. Ugh I hate these people so much!


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## Littleknitwit

What a bunch of a-holes... Well, at least you are getting your money back... Now I am sure you can get a healthy poodle, when you are ready...if this whole experience didn't taint you against pet ownership!

Congrats! I'm proud of you! OH and is this going to air on TV? I'd love to see it if so since I am in Phx.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Pinky...this is just me talking. If I were you, I would take the money and run. Court situations are always a risk, even if it seems as if your case is ironclad. If this agreement included a non disclosure to be signed, I would not do it. But because I did not see a mention of one, I would take this money and let us help you get yourself a healthy puppy! Lots of us here know breeders who are ethical, who do testing, who sell healthy puppies. Get yourself a new baby and let your heart begin to heal. Then continue to spread the word about these people, carefully, because this in worded in such a way that they really make you almost admit this was your error, but who cares? If you can get your money back and heal your wounds and still get as much attention as is LEGALLY possible to what this place is doing, that is awesome. And you can thank that little bundle of fur for helping you grow up with grace and strength you never knew you had!


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## Olie

Other than a couple ways its "worded" it seems close to accurate. I would sign and move on and work on getting past all this. You've learned a lot along the way that you can apply later when working with a great breeder. There are some great standard breeders here Not sure about the smaller poos. 

I hate this experience went this way but so glad they are going to be responsible at least by giving you your refund - regardless of all the circumstances. (Horrible business they have)


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## puppylove

Be sure your lawyer looks at it closely and advises you on what you can say hereafter. I'm glad you're getting your money back. I'm sorry these wicked people are still going to be in business. When is it going to air?


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## Jessie's Mom

personally, it angers me that you have to even sign this. i am happy about the refund, however, i am not happy with how their low life lawyers worded this agreement you are having to sign. i particularly don't like the part where they say you have to now end any legal matters you were persuing with them or their low life breeders. maybe....you could get your money....and then still, somehow continue to make all that has to be known be known and maybe....they will eventually be made to eat their own S - - t. oh, how i would love to know that happened.

glad you are having the lawyer read it. i guess i agree with arreau - take the high road. just kills me that you have to agree that any part of this was your fault and they continue to maintain their satanic cocky attitude.

sorry - this is just how i feel about them and their whole operation.


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## Chagall's mom

I would DEFINITELY let a lawyer read it, Pinky. In all likelihood, the lawyer will cross out some of the language and offer other guidance. That being said, getting your money back is what's important at this juncture. You've told your story to enough people to at least get the word out, and I'm sure it won't end there.

Bravo for you! I can only imagine how many other heartbroken people didn't have the stomach, heart or nerve to go up against these wicked, wicked people. And then there's young, heartbroken you--and look what you've accomplished!

You deserve a great poodle, either now or at some point in the future. Put the money you recover toward that fund, pat yourself on the back for "walking through the fire" and coming out stronger for it, and know you've got lots of friends on this forum waiting and wanting to help you connect with the right breeder whenever you're ready. 

I am terribly sorry I got to know of your incredible character through such a tragedy, but my dear, you move my heart, you have my admiration and I just know you're going to enjoy the love of a great poodle one day. And oh what a lucky poodle that will be!!


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## Pinky

I hate that they're still in business too. Best Friends called me today and they suggested I contact PACC 911. I don't know if this is an organization that every state has but she said it was a Phoenix one that I could speak to regarding legislation about puppy mills. As awful as this experience has been it certainly has opened my eyes about puppy mills and set a fire in my soul to do all I can to stop them. It's so discouraging knowing that obviously tons of people have been trying to do just that for years and yet it is still happening. Ann Marie, that is exactly how I feel about it. I get that they're just trying to cover their own ass but it's bothersome that they know they're in the wrong and yet they're still trying to make it seem as if I did something wrong. My one and only mistake was purchasing a puppy from those a holes. I don't know how anyone that works for that company can live with themselves. They're selling their soul to the devil every single day. It's pathetic. They may think they're getting away with it but I can assure you this is an experience I will forever carry with me and speak to anyone that will listen to me about it.

For those of you in Phoenix the segment is airing on the 9 o'clock news on Thursday. Channel 3.

P.S.
Chagall, your posts always make me smile


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## schnauzerpoodle

Pinky, I agree with what others said. I would let the lawyer read it and if he thinks it looks alright, I would take the money and start a Charlie's Fund. This money would go to your next pet whenever you are ready for one. I am sure you have learned a lot and the lesson learned will not be forgotten.

Don't forget to keep us updated and whenever you are ready, give us a wave and I am sure we have plenty of knowledgable forum-buddies that will help you pick the right pup for you. 

And Pinky, you know what, I know it may be painful for you but here's an idea: Why not start a blog and write about the whole thing (you don't have to name them if the agreement doesn't allow u to do so)? You know, just write how you decided that you wanted a puppy and how your search process was and how prepared (or unprepared) you were and how shocked you were when you found out puppies would vomit …. and how it was like to see your puppy for the first time and so on. I think people will learn a lot from your story and this may be a way to educate them. Just a thought.


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## penny_ann

I think the blog idea is great too. She can get the word out and still avoid naming names if that's a condition to taking the money and running. But I would definitely show it to the lawyer before signing it.


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## schnauzerpoodle

Or write a Facebook note and it can easily circulate too.


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## Pinky

Yeah, I'm still waiting to hear back about the release from the lawyer. I never did do the squeeky wheel thing either so I also asked him if I can still post that.


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## SnorPuddel

You are getting some very good advice, and you are thinking your way through the process. You are learning a lot, and I know that you will take what you learn and you will in turn educate others, and that is priceless. That will honor Charley's memory.

Best Friends is an amazing organization, I wish I lived closer to them, I would volunteer.


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## Pamela

I am so sorry for your loss - I havent been on much lately so I don't know your story but I really feel for you.


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## cavon

I'm so very sorry for your loss. Charlie will be waiting for you on the rainbow bridge.


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## Sapphire-Light

Arrg!! :yell: I can't believe it, this "breeder" still had the guts to promote in a another dog forum I'm in Purebred Breeders


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## JE-UK

Scum.

I was completely sidetracked by an ad on that site for this dog bed, however: myndme ? ViscoPad Products: Designer Dog Beds and Designer Dog Cushions

I must have it!


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## fjm

Looks like PBB were seen through immediately - do you suppose they are beginning to believe their own lies, or are they just blanket mailing every possible forum and blog? It could be a good thing if they do - more and more good information about them coming up on internet searches.

Love that bed - but wonder what it would look like covered in cat and papillon hair, and with the corners chewed ...


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## Marian

Sapphire-Light said:


> Arrg!! :yell: I can't believe it, this "breeder" still had the guts to promote in a another dog forum I'm in Purebred Breeders


That's a spambot post. I used to moderate a forum and those would pop up regularly. The moderators of chazhound should delete them and ban the IP that posted it. It won't stop it from happening again, but at least the members won't have to see it.


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## Marian

JE-UK said:


> Scum.
> 
> I was completely sidetracked by an ad on that site for this dog bed, however: myndme ? ViscoPad Products: Designer Dog Beds and Designer Dog Cushions
> 
> I must have it!


For that price, it better be big enough for me to sleep in too!


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