# Dewclaws



## Fluffyspoos

Just from a groomers standpoint.. although they're regularly removed, I'd say that in the US I groom far more dogs with them than without them. Owners with dogs with dewclaws are constantly asking me to get them as close as possible, because those are often the nails scratching them and their kids; or getting caught in the dogs own eye sockets, or overgrowing and turning back into the paws.

To me, the risk of arthritis is far lower than the every day risk that the dewclaws impose by being there.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> Just from a groomers standpoint.. although they're regularly removed, I'd say that in the US I groom far more dogs with them than without them. Owners with dogs with dewclaws are constantly asking me to get them as close as possible, because those are often the nails scratching them and their kids; or getting caught in the dogs own eye sockets, or overgrowing and turning back into the paws.
> 
> To me, the risk of arthritis is far lower than the every day risk that the dewclaws impose by being there.


I agree! They are a nuisance, they are a risk and I will always remove the dews on my pups.


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## Apres Argent

I may be in the minority but I am leaving dew claws. I hope someone else pops up and posts some interesting video of dew claws in use. It is amazing and changed my mind about dew claw removal. Helen are you here???????


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## JE-UK

I know opinions differ on dewclaws, but it's definitely something to think about with a pup intended for dog sports. 

I'd like to see video too! I've seen some stills, but good slo-mo would be VERY interesting.


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## fjm

Sophy has dew claws, Poppy hasn't. I am amazed at how much Sophy uses hers, for gripping, face cleaning, tight turns when running, etc.


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## Jility

Dew claws are extremely important and useful to our dogs (front dew claws that is). They are attached by tendons and when you remove them, those tendons atrophy and the leg can become unstable and more prone to injuries.
Dogs injure other toes as often as dew claws but we do not remove them prophylactically. It just doesn't make any sense to me to cut off body parts for the sake of convenience.
I do not believe in docking tails either. I have not for many years. Dogs use their tails! They use them for balance and for communication. There are some new studies showing a correlation between spinal cord (and its tributaries) insult and immune issues. With all the diseases and cancer in our dogs, the last thing I would want to do would be to compromise my dog's immune system by lopping off the tail for fashion or the show ring or convenience.
Here is a link to a paper written by Dr. Chris Zink on removing dew claws. She is a veterinarian who specializes in sports medicine for dogs.
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


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## Apres Argent

Thanks Helen for joining in! Do you have
video that shows them using the dew claws?


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## Jility

Here you go!
http://www.jility.com/files/Pastern_Bend.wmv


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## outwest

My dog has dewclaws. Her breeder believed they were important for movement somehow and holding bones. She always leaves them. I hate them. She used to scratch me with them all the time, but seems to have learned how not to now. I have seen her stabilize a bone with them (hers are usable and attached, not floppy). Even so, I wish they had been removed. She doesn't have any on the rear, just the front.


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## outwest

Jility, I don't understand the video. How does that show them using the dewclaws? Are you saying their pasterns are contracted and pulled more with them? Please explain.


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## Jility

Perhaps you could cut the nails shorter. Who is your breeder? That is one smart person!


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## Jility

The video is self-explanatory! The dog's pastern bends to the ground and the dew claw comes in contact with the surface and digs in as well stabilizing the leg. Did you read the paper I sent by Dr. Chris Zink? It explains it very well. http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf


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## outwest

Okay, I get it. That must be what her breeder was talking about then. My pup is a smaller standard and has some Canadian/Eastern European agility poodles on her Mom's side. She runs really fast for a little thing. I will examine her run the next time I get a chance and see if her dewclaws hit the ground. Actually, maybe I'll check out some pictures we recently took of her running.


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## Jility

Well, of course they hit the gorund LOL. THat is what they are for.
WHo is your breeder?


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## Quossum

It seems logical that the firmly attached, toe-like dewclaws could be functional to a dog. My first Corgi (a puppy mill dog) had such dewclaws. However, when I worked at a grooming salon, I saw my share of flimsy, almost vestigial dewclaws, barely clinging to the dog's leg by a shard of skin. No muscle to them whatsoever, and such claws would be very worrying to me for an active dog.

Can one tell in a newborn pup whether the dewclaw will be of the latter type or the former? Because I'd remove the floppy one in a second.

--Q


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## PoodlePowerBC

I saw a pitty at the dog park today that still had dew claws ... really long ones with at least 3/4 inch nails. It looked very dangerous to me ... I can imagine the damage she would have done to Russell if she would have "mounted" him with those things during play. I have honestly never seen anything like it! Front and back ...


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## Jility

Usually it is the rear dew claws that are not attached well. I have never seen front DC that were flimsy.


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## Jility

That is not about the dew claw but about the fact that the owners were idiots and didn't cut them.


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## PoodlePowerBC

Jility said:


> That is not about the dew claw but about the fact that the owners were idiots and didn't cut them.


Idiots or ignorant ... anyone can own a dog. And this was definitely not a dog that was going to be participating in agility.


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## Jility

Sadly yes, that is true. THat us how the bully type dogs got banned from certain cities. It is not the dogs' fault, it is the moronic owners. Anyone can have kids too but that doesn't make them good parents .


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## outwest

I checked my dogs pictures of her running. Most of them she is flying in air in a full stretch or curled up in a ball, but I did find a couple of her hitting the ground. She is agile and you are right, she appears to be using the dew claws to dig in. When I took her to the vets when I got her, I asked about the dew claws because I didn't like them. He said since they were attached and functional (she can move them), it was better to leave them. The groomer trims them the same as all her other claws. 

Maybe I shouldn't grumble about them too much anymore if there is truly a use for them. Thanks for the education, Jility.


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## Jility

My pleasure!


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## 3dogs

I have dogs with Dewclaws, without dewclaws, with all 4 dewclaws. I see NO reason to chop them off if they have nice tight ones, esp. the front. The ONLY time I have seen Floppy front ones is when the were REMOVED as a Puppy & they nail itself regrew BUT with no pad, or stability, just a floppy little sharp nail. If the nails are long they SCRATCH so why don't we just cut & file the nails. My dogs nails I do at least 2x monthly that is ALL the nails. I have no issues with long scratchy nails. I have NONE that rip out or cause problems. My dogs have never had an injury to their dewclaws. If owners bring in a dog with nails that wrap around then of course all the nails are cut, owner is given a lecture about getting nails done every 6 months (morons). 
I have seen more problems with Anal Glands than with Dewclaws. I see way more problems with disgusting, filthy, oozing ears, with such a stench it could knock one out. I see more problems with crap built up underneath the eye's of dogs, crud covering the eyes, & hair rubbing the eyeballs of our poor furry friends & the owners wonder why their dogs eyes weep. Duh!!! I have seen more problems with filthy, stenchy, rotting teeth just about falling out of dogs mouths. I have seen more LP in the small dogs that cause issue than with Dewclaws. 
Let's just say in my career as a groomer the DEWCLAWS are the LEAST affected body part & if are born with them nice & tight leave the suckers alone. We need to stop chopping off body parts for our convience or looks.


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## sneakers012

My dog was not properly vetted by their breeder (he's a rescue), so I'm pretty sure he has one front dewclaw fully and firmly attached and none on the other side. Knowing issues with horses when they drop one shoe, and my difficulties in running with unequally weighted sneakers, would anyone like to venture a guess as to how big of a problem this could turn into? 

AKA- bc he's got one side but not the other, is there a substantial risk of hurting the non-dewclawed side by acting the same with it as the dewclawed side? He's not in a formal agility program but he does run around like a maniac with our tenant's smaller, whippier pit bull X. 

.. Further, is it possible to get it removed when he's under for neutering (6 months old) if there is substantial risk?


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## Fluffyspoos

Neither of my dogs have their dewclaws, they grip bones, and seem to run, jump, turn quickly, and do everything dogs with dewclaws can do just fine. Except I don't have to clip them, I don't have to worry about them getting caught on anything and getting ripped, ect.

Just sayin.


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## Olie

sneakers012 said:


> .. Further, is it possible to get it removed when he's under for neutering (6 months old) if there is substantial risk?


Yes you can - its done often. I am having my pups removed when he goes under for his surgery. we have already had a mild mishap with his.....I have two other standards and they love to romp.

I dislike dew claws a lot.


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## outwest

Dewclaws will be an endless cause for discussion in poodles.


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## Jility

It is a shame you are going to remove an older puppy's dew claws for your convenience. Those things are there for a reason and I am sorry you can't see that. It is very shortsighted on your part. Sometimes we really need to do what is best for the dog. Perhaps you should remove all of your puppy's toes because they may get injured too!
We have eight dogs. There are 6 standard Poodles, a Borcer Collie and an Aussie mix (actually, she was a feral dog). No dogs play harder, work harder or run harder than my dogs! We have never had a dew claw problem!
I used to breed and show Great Danes and Bassett Hounds in the 1970s. I have had a LOT of dogs over the years! I never once had an issue with dew claws! NOT ONE! Of course stuff happens but just cutting off body parts because something might happen is absurd!


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## Fluffyspoos

And I've never had a problem with my dogs without dewclaws.

Just like we're not going to change your mind with them, you probably be able to change ours either.


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## Jility

I am sorry for your dogs having to have body parts removed for your convenience!


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## Fluffyspoos

I haven't heard them complain. 

And dewclaws aren't just removed for human convenience, the reason for removing them is preventing damage that they can cause. Have yours caused a problem? No? Good for you, but other people's dogs have - are you going to call them liars?


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## Olie

Jility said:


> It is a shame you are going to remove an older puppy's dew claws for your convenience. Those things are there for a reason and I am sorry you can't see that. It is very shortsighted on your part. Sometimes we really need to do what is best for the dog. Perhaps you should remove all of your puppy's toes because they may get injured too!
> We have eight dogs. There are 6 standard Poodles, a Borcer Collie and an Aussie mix (actually, she was a feral dog). No dogs play harder, work harder or run harder than my dogs! We have never had a dew claw problem!
> I used to breed and show Great Danes and Bassett Hounds in the 1970s. I have had a LOT of dogs over the years! I never once had an issue with dew claws! NOT ONE! Of course stuff happens but just cutting off body parts because something might happen is absurd!


Yes I am and I have no issue what so ever. 

I will sleep just fine with my decision and your opinion of me


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## CharismaticMillie

Finally some drama! It's been a little tame around here lately!


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## Countryboy

ChocolateMillie said:


> Finally some drama! It's been a little tame around here lately!


Yup  . . . but don't hog all that popcorn would'ja, CM!


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## Jility

Sadly, I am sure you will.


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## outwest

CM and Countryboy, you are hilarious. I have been consciously staying away from drama as much as possible lately. I, too, noticed how tame it's been around here. 

I will say that since jility pointed out that dew claws have a use, I have been checking out my dog to see if they actually did hit the ground when running, jumping, twisting and turning. It does look like they are being used in those cases. I never noticed how flattened her front feet get when at full throttle before. I won't have them taken off when she is spayed like I was thinking of doing. Instead, I asked the groomer to grind them smooth and rounded on the nail end (not necessarily short) last week. I don't seem to be scratched by them in the last few days.


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## plumcrazy

I realize that this subject is a hot topic. I request that everyone respect other's beliefs and opinions. Some comments are drawing very close to being disrespectful and dismissive.

It's acceptable to present your opinions and the reasons for those, but it's NOT ok to imply that someone is abusing their pet if their opinions and reasons don't align with yours.

I have dogs both with dewclaws and dogs whose dewclaws have been removed. I do not see any (none, zero, zip) difference between the dogs who have the dewclaws and the ones who do not. None of my dogs participate in agility, but we do other performance events with them (rally obedience, obedience, etc.) and the two who have had their dewclaws removed (Standard Poodles) are the only ones who do the "zoomies" in the yard - the other two dogs are geriatric and have no interest in running fast enough that their dewclaws would hit the earth anyway. The Poodles are certainly not portraying any sense of loss from the absence of their dewclaws. Pitted against similar dogs WITH dewclaws? Maybe there would be a difference in performance, maybe not - but on their own they manage to speed around just dandy!

I've also heard similar arguments from both sides of the cat declaw controversey. Some people believe it's mutilation (it is) and should not be considered. Other people believe that it may be the only way the cat can stay inside the home without damaging anything (it is) and they want to give the cat a forever inside home... Both sides have their truths and their fallacies.

One of my favorite poems is the Desiderata (if you haven't heard of it, Google it and read it... I try to live my life by its message) and one of the lines in this poem is, "Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story."

We can agree to disagree and keep it respectful (please) or formal warnings will be forthcoming. Thank you!

Barb


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## CharismaticMillie

Thanks for sharing that quote!


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## outwest

Plumcrazy, I have the Desiderata framed in one of our bedrooms. My mother made me read it when I was growing up.  Sometimes I forget it's teachings, so it is good to refer to now and again:

Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
and remember what peace there may be in silence.

As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter;
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs;
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals;
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself.
Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years,
gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be,
and whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.


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## Jility

GREAT CHOICE Outwest! Good for you!


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## plumcrazy

outwest said:


> Plumcrazy, I have the Desiderata framed in one of our bedrooms. My mother made me read it when I was growing up.  Sometimes I forget it's teachings, so it is good to refer to now and again:
> 
> Go placidly amid the noise and haste,
> and remember what peace there may be in silence.
> 
> As far as possible without surrender
> be on good terms with all persons.
> Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
> and listen to others,
> even the dull and the ignorant;
> they too have their story.
> Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
> they are vexations to the spirit.
> 
> If you compare yourself with others,
> you may become vain or bitter;
> for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
> 
> Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
> Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
> it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
> Exercise caution in your business affairs;
> for the world is full of trickery.
> But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
> many persons strive for high ideals;
> and everywhere life is full of heroism.
> 
> Be yourself.
> Especially, do not feign affection.
> Neither be cynical about love;
> for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
> it is as perennial as the grass.
> 
> Take kindly the counsel of the years,
> gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
> Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
> But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.
> Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
> 
> Beyond a wholesome discipline,
> be gentle with yourself.
> You are a child of the universe,
> no less than the trees and the stars;
> you have a right to be here.
> And whether or not it is clear to you,
> no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
> 
> Therefore be at peace with God,
> whatever you conceive Him to be,
> and whatever your labors and aspirations,
> in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
> 
> With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
> it is still a beautiful world.
> Be cheerful.
> Strive to be happy.


Thanks for sharing the whole thing, outwest... When I was in high school my mother had this hanging in our bathroom, right where I'd be drying my nearly waist long hair every morning. I would get bored just standing there with the dryer so I'd read the Desiderata, over and over and over... I ended up memorizing it and can still quote most of it without prompting. As I said in my previous post - I try to live my life according to the lessons in this poem. It's nothing short of brilliant!

My mother gave me the one she had hanging in the bathroom (she knew how much it meant to me) and I passed it along to my daughter who took it to work with her so she can be reminded of its wisdom during her day.

Thanks again for sharing!

Barb


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## HiSocietyPoodle

*Guido's Dew Claws*

A couple of days ago Guido began licking his left paw obsessively. It prompted me to see why. 

It looks like his dew claw finger is broken. He cries and whimpers when I touch it. Yesterday I called the vet and made an appointment to address this, we can't get in to see him until Thursday. I have him wearing a cone on his head now because I can't stop him from licking it. I tried bandaging it up, he chewed it off in 5 minutes.

It looks like both his little dew claws are growing upside down and appear to be just hanging there. But the left one is injured. They have caused him problems since I got him. I'm thinking of having them removed because they don't grow in the right direction.


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## Poodlenatic

Sorry for such a late post. 

Was just wondering what the conclusion was relating to the dewclaws intact or removed? I have a toy poodle and his dewclaws was removed by the breeder. I am really considering competing in agility. Will this have an impact on performance?


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## fjm

I think the evidence can be summarised as:
Dewclaws probably serve a useful purpose, especially for dogs that need to run and corner fast.
Dewclaws can be prone to damage, and can get overgrown if neglected.
Many - if not most, given how widespread removal still is - agility dogs perform well without dewclaws.

I probably would not remove them if I were ever to have a litter, but I don't think you need to worry about it affecting your pups performance.


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## sulamk

In South Africa ir has become illegal to dock a dog or remove dew claws unless medically necessary! I have never had any of my pups dew claws removed!


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## Fluffyspoos

I'd rather not have to deal with torn dewclaws, or wait until an injury to remove them.

But that's just my opinion.


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