# vaccines and preventative flea care



## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

Hi. So my 6 month old spoo has not had any additional shots since her puppy shots at 8 weeks. 

Before people jump all over me, please realize that this is partially stemming from my personal research on vaccines in humans, and I have a vaccine injured son who developed autism.

so that being said...I need to take her to group training lessons, but she must have rabies and DHP-P to attend. The vet on the phone also said she needs kennel cough (and God knows what else they will try to give her)

I want the minimums (rabies and DHPP) but I have seen a puppy die of KC before. Is that something that those who are hesitant vaxer's also recommend?

I am really looking for people who share my pov of vaccines to chime in. Anyone else who wants to give me a hard time, please don't post on this thread. Feel free to open your own thread to bash non-vaxxers if you are so inclined. 

thank you


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I follow a limited vaccine protocol (Dr. Dodd's). I finish the puppy series, one set at 1 year following the last puppy shot, and then I am finished for life except for rabies.

Now, as far as Bordetella vaccines, I don't do them at all unless required. For example, I do NOT do the Bordetella vaccine for my show dog as it is not required. I HAVE done it for my pet girl because it was required for the dog park, and I weighed out the exercise and enjoyment she'd get from the park to be greater than the harm of the vaccine. What I have heard is that while the Bordetella vaccine really isn't necessary (Bordetella is rarely fatal and the vaccine itself does not protect against all strains of the illness). I have also heard that the Bordetella vaccine is one of the less harmful ones.

If I were to put myself in your shoes, I'd go ahead and get the Rabies, Distemper and Parvo shots up to date. I'd only do Bordetella if absolutely required. But if required I would in fact go ahead and do Bordetella without being overly concerned about it causing issues.


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## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

CM-I love your new avatar! And thanks for the input. I really value your many years of experience.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Vaccination Schedule Recommendations For Dogs

This is Dr Jean Dodds' vaccination schedule.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

sweet viola said:


> CM-I love your new avatar! And thanks for the input. I really value your many years of experience.


Oh, I _really_ don't have that many years, have just picked a lot up in the past few, and largely thanks to this forum! Three years ago I'd have been all, Dr. _who?_ if someone mentioned Dr. Dodds. And I made mistakes and let my vet (IMO) overvaccinate Millie as a puppy because I didn't know better. Yet.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Hello Sweet Viola,

I can't blame you about the vaccines! I know of a boy(Human) that was of above normal intelligence, until his vaccination! Now he is mildly slow!

Try to see if they will accept titres. There is a thread about a low cost titre test available in the states. I live in Canada, but will be using their services this year! Apparently the cost is something to the effect of $45 for dhpp, and under $100 for the Rabies. Well worth the cost! You will have to pay your vet a draw fee, but that is a small cost compared to a compromised immune system. 

I will look it up later. Vacs post 8 weeks are best! If there is no immunity, you will probally have to go at it again. I have seen parvo, you do not want to go there! After that you should be good.

PS: for your son, try a total detox, it may help to rid of some of the heavy metals.

Paragon


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Rabies is required by law. I don't know the specific laws in your state, but you might want to check them out.

You could also ask if the school will take titers in place of vaccines.

One thing I want to point out: if your puppy only received one set of vaccines at 8 weeks of age, it's possible she is not protected against disease. You might want to read up on maternally derived antibodies (MDA) and puppy immunity/vaccinations. If her MAD had not waned enough by 8 weeks of age, those vaccines might have been completely ineffective. If she had been vaccinated at 16 weeks old, it's likely that one set of shots would have provided protection. You could titer her if you are curious, although that won't be a black and white answer. If the titer is high, you can feel confident she is protected at the time, but if it's low, it might mean she's not protected or it might mean she is protected but just wasn't challenged with the disease at the time you drew the blood. It's definitely complicated. Have you found a vet who is on the same page as you?

I follow a minimal vaccine protocol, but I do want my dog protected from parvo particularly. Distemper is also quite bad for puppies.

Bordetella is just like a flu shot. I think it's unnecessary, but I give it (in the intranasal form) so my dog can go to day care. He has come down with kennel cough TWICE while on the vaccine, so not sure what the point of it is! Kennel cough is in most cases no more serious than the common cold. Kennel cough is in most cases no more serious than the common cold.


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## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

thanks for everyones help  It's a delicate subject in parents forums, seems like you guys take a more balanced approach!

My son is 7 now, his reaction was at 18 months old. We are currently on a special diet, Gluten/wheat free, and it has helped a lot. Turns out, a few months ago I was dxed with Celiac, which is an inability to process wheat in the gut. 

Interesting, no?


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

sweet viola: I respect your view on vaccines. I wish my local vets did not push vaccines so much, and I also wish clubs, parks and a lot of groomers here didn't. Rarely can I find anyone who even understands the idea of titres. Here, there is no open-mindedness.

What was your question about flea preventatives?


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I follow a limited vaccine protocol (Dr. Dodd's). I finish the puppy series, one set at 1 year following the last puppy shot, and then I am finished for life except for rabies.


Ditto. Lepto is something you should *research to your own satisfaction* but if your dog is a city dog it's unlikely to pick it up.



CharismaticMillie said:


> What I have heard is that while the Bordetella vaccine really isn't necessary (Bordetella is rarely fatal and the vaccine itself does not protect against all strains of the illness).


B is a little worse than own own cough & cold. That said if you're *not* the type of pet owner to let a cough develop into bronchitis then pneumonia then I wouldn't worry about getting the vaccine :act-up:

I would recommend getting the 1 yr booster set then waiting 3 weeks for the rabies.


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## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

My friend SWEARS by Trifexis, but again, it seems like a "strong" medicine to use? But this is the 4th time the poor girl has gotten tape worms, and I KNOW that isn't good for her either.

Any input?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

IF Frontline works in your area, I like it best because it does not enter the bloodstream, only the skin. Oral medicine for ticks/fleas enters the bloodstream.


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## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

does frontline kill the worms too? BTW I live in florida and we spend a lot of time outside in the yard. We are semi country. Not worried about ticks though.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

sweet viola said:


> does frontline kill the worms too? BTW I live in florida and we spend a lot of time outside in the yard. We are semi country. Not worried about ticks though.


Oops! Totally misread. No, Frontline does not kill worms. I've not had any issues with worms so I don't know what to use for them. I might be asking the group for advice on that soon, though, as Millie killed and ate :scared: a bunny the other week. I'm just waiting to see tapeworms in her stool...


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## sweet viola (Dec 9, 2011)

:ahhhhh: Oh Millie! LOL

Yeah, since this is our 4th time around, seems like she is getting them every month after the oral pill runs out. I don't know how to stop it, and from what I understand, heartworms are particularly bad here in Florida.

I have heard you can use crushed oyster shells for worming-the shells shred the worms, but please get a second opinion on that, as I will to if I use it.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I used to skip lyme and lepto completely in an urban environment. Now in a rural environment and letting my dogs be dogs (and watching a dog die from lepto), I do the lyme/lepto combo. We've had bad years for ticks, so I'm happy to have a little more protection past frontline. Your vaccine choice will change according to your environment and your dog's risk of exposure.

I did bordatella when boarding my puppy. But for a healthy adult dog I'll pass. That being said, I don't pay for vet bills (my fiance is a vet). So while the meds for bordatella can be expensive, that doesn't factor into my decision. I feel it is comparable to getting myself vaccinated for 4 strains of the common cold. Perhaps that is over-dramatic and over-simplified.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I do not vaccinate for Lepto. It is a high risk vaccine and the vaccine does not get all the strains. My vet no longer gives it as she feels the risk/benefit ratio is not good. 
When I have Swizzle get a shot he gets only one and I let at least a few weeks go by before he gets the next one. He got a Parvo/Distempter as a puppy and at a year and will just get titers as that will probably be good for years. You have to get rabies. I do have him get Lyme because we are in a Lyme hot spot (I had a doctor remove a tick from my head yesterday - yuk) and I have picked as many as 4 ticks off Swizzle and that was getting walked on the driveway! I will probably pass on KC unless required by the groomer or for agility classes.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

I have not personally used it but I know several that have used food grade diatomaceous earth for ticks, fleas, and tapeworms. Some only treat their house and yard (has to be reapplied if it gets wet), and others treat the yard and give it to the pet to ingest for worm treatments. They all swear by it.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

GlennBaxterFamily said:


> I have not personally used it but I know several that have used food grade diatomaceous earth for ticks, fleas, and tapeworms. Some only treat their house and yard (has to be reapplied if it gets wet), and others treat the yard and give it to the pet to ingest for worm treatments. They all swear by it.


I've used it sprinkled in dirt/mulch dog kennel areas. It seemed to deter flies from landing. Edited to add: made a HUGE improvement. I don't think I would have passed USDA inspections without it. I think it has value but have concerns about internal use.

Remember that the abrasive quality that kills parasites also affects the dog's insides. Plus, it's labeled that it only works when dry. The inside of a dog is certainly not dry.

I worked at a dog kennel, raw feeding no-vaccine sort of place, and they tried using DE in the food instead of ivermectin every 3 months (no fecals or HW testing, just routine). They switched back to ivermectin.

I need more than anecdotes to take a risk on my dog's health. If there was research on it... it would help. I remember reading a little bit of research about DE in grain fed to sheep. I dismissed it as "irrelevant" at the time and now regret not reading it carefully.

I have no answer, but lots of questions about using DE internally.


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## GlennBaxterFamily (Apr 28, 2011)

tortoise said:


> I've used it sprinkled in dirt/mulch dog kennel areas. It seemed to deter flies from landing. Edited to add: made a HUGE improvement. I don't think I would have passed USDA inspections without it. I think it has value but have concerns about internal use.
> 
> Remember that the abrasive quality that kills parasites also affects the dog's insides. Plus, it's labeled that it only works when dry. The inside of a dog is certainly not dry.
> 
> ...


I agree that DE used in pools is not ok for ingesting but I have heard nothing but positive things about food grade DE. I haven't been able to find studies about ingesting it, which is why I have not personally tried it. If you find any studies about food grade DE, will you shoot that information my way?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I wish there was commercial interest in researching the things I am interested in.  I will post if I come across anything.

Good catch on pool-grade versus food-grade! I forgot about that.


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## Kloliver (Jan 17, 2012)

*Food Grade DE*

My GF did substantial research on food grade _freshwater amorphous_ DE before they started ingesting it daily. By substantial, I mean _months_ of research. She is thinking of organising the data & writing a paper.

She has turned so many onto DE & everyone- 2 legged & 4 thrive on it. PM to get supplier name if
interested


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

She should! I'd love to read it.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Ticks and Fleas: Prevention and Removal - Dr. Weil

Fighting Off Fleas?

Two more flea and tick ideas, plus DE, too!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree , take the shots one at a time and space them out. 

So sorry to hear about your son. I have a 2 year old grandson and we passed on the 18month shots , as they seem to be the ones that cause the problems. Luck was with us as our baby doctor agreed. My daughter had me go with her to fight the doctor, but he was happy we did not want it... he said there is no way that the two are not connected IHO.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Because you live in Florida you do need a heartworm preventive. Don't skip this. Heartworm is a potentially fatal disease.

The drugs that prevent heartworm are different from the drugs that prevent other parasites. I was using Interceptor for heartworm/internal parasites (not for fleas) but its currently unavailable (Sentinel, which is heartworm, parasites and fleas) is also currently unavailable. Your only choices at this time are Trifectus, Heartguard (ivermectin), Heartguard Plus (includes other parasites) and Iverheart (ivermectin).

My vet told me the active ingredients in Trifectis are naturally derived (from mushrooms, I think?) and that ivermectin is synthetic and can be hard on certain dogs, but I need to do some more research myself. I really hope Interceptor comes back on the market soon because I was happy with that one.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yeah, I just had to switch to Trifexis, too. I'm on the Texas Gulf Coast and you do not mess around with heartworm preventative down here! I heard it's going to be a really bad year for fleas, too, and I've already seem some of the little vermin (after years without spotting a one on any of my dogs!), so I'm willing to chance the flea prevention meds in this product.

I let my vet give my pup the distemper and parvo vacs (those diseases scare me!), but chose not to go with lepto or kennel cough. Our dogs are raw-fed and pretty tough all-round, and everyone is minimally vaccinated--just rabies once the puppy shots are done. 

--Q


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

To the OP, if your dog has/keeps getting tapeworms then that means she has fleas. A dog ingesting a flea is how tapeworms are transmitted. None of the preventatives cover tapeworms, so you need a specific dewormer for that. Since you are in FL I really do hope you are giving your girl monthly heartworm medication! That is really not something to mess around with. As for the DE, I am personally not sold on it as an internal dewormer. I have personally checked several dogs stools that were being given this, and they all had parasites.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I use Advocate for heartworm/lungworm/fleas, and it works well. I would never skip heartworm treatment. Years ago, my aunt had a big Newf that died of heartworm, back before there was an effective preventative. Not pretty.

Similarly, I vaccinate for everything. I consult with my vet on boosters, and match the frequency of boosters with the best info I can find on duration of protection, but again, I would never not vaccinate. I've seen dogs die of parvo, and it's horrid.

Be aware as well, that if your dog is not vaccinated for rabies and either bites someone or is picked up loose, it can be euthanised immediately in some places. It would be worth investigating local laws and practice.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I agree, I would never skip a heartworm treatment and that is a great point Florida is not the place to do it as your odds are not good. For parvo Swizzle had his puppy shot and hi one year and next time it is due I will titer and if he needs it he will get it. Rabies it is the law and not your choice.


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