# Using a collar with a leash for training a mini



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

They are both right and both wrong. If a harness hits at the wrong part of the dog's body they can be injured. Some harnesses are designed to restrict motion and can harm joints. Many dog's will still pull in a harness and since it can be slower to deliver information to the dog you don't really end up being able to teach them to keep the leash loose. Some dogs will feel less anxious on a harness and automatically reduce the pulling as a result. I've also seen some people who jerk their small dogs around on a harness just as brutally as on a collar. I like martingale collars for young dogs since they can't get too tight, can't be put on backwards and also don't allow puppies to back out of them. A well fitted collar with a not too heavy leash is overall what I prefer to teach loose leash walking.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> They are both right and both wrong. If a harness hits at the wrong part of the dog's body they can be injured. Some harnesses are designed to restrict motion and can harm joints. Many dog's will still pull in a harness and since it can be slower to deliver information to the dog you don't really end up being able to teach them to keep the leash loose. Some dogs will feel less anxious on a harness and automatically reduce the pulling as a result. I've also seen some people who jerk their small dogs around on a harness just as brutally as on a collar. I like martingale collars for young dogs since they can't get too tight, can't be put on backwards and also don't allow puppies to back out of them. A well fitted collar with a not too heavy leash is overall what I prefer to teach loose leash walking.


I’ve never used a martingale collar. Do you think it’s right for a miniature poodle puppy? I use a very minimal harness for Remy, but sometimes on walks he will cough, so I wonder is his harnesses are also hitting him in the wrong spot.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I've had the best success using a harness to introduce the puppy to the idea of walking on a leash and then graduating to a wide combination nylon chain martingale at young adulthood.

Puppies tend to run in circles around my legs, get distracted and lunge at blowing leaves, and do other silly things that could result in an abrupt stop. I'd rather the force of that stop hit the chest and not the windpipe. Therefore, I use a harness the first time I put the puppy on the leash and for the first few months.

Once the puppy understands how to stay in his lane and mostly remembers how long the leash actually is, it's easier for me to use a martingale. Spread the loop, drop it over the dog's head, off we go. Much easier than fussing with a bunch of harness buckles.

One argument against using a harness is that it teaches the dog to pull. In my opinion, letting the dog pull teaches the dog to pull. That goes for harnesses or collars. I once had a cocker spaniel wearing a flat buckle collar tow me across a skippery pea gravel driveway in pursuit of a fleeing toad. I hung on like a water skier, but there was no way I was stopping that dog until we hit grass. We humans outweighed this dog by so much that we'd never bothered to teach him to walk properly on a leash. Using my superior weight to control the dog worked only until I encountered a surface he could dig his feet into and I couldn't. It would have been much better if I had installed a "leave it" and a "heel" command.

So, for the first few months on harness I spend a lot of effort not letting the puppy get into the habit of towing me. I call out "easy" when the leash goes taut and stop dead if the puppy continues to surge forward. We continue forward only if the puppy relaxes and looks back at me. If the puppy throws a tantrum or barks, then I spin on my heel and walk away from whatever caught his attention. I don't want to get dragged after toads, or chipmunks, or anything else.

After a few months of consistent reinforcement the puppy will understand the rules of walking on a leash. That's when I make the switch to the martingale. He is less likely to hurt himself, because he ALREADY KNOWS he's not allowed to pull. He might choose to disobey, and then the collar will pull him uncomfortably, but he knows he caused the problem when that happens.

The reason I like a combination nylon band chain martingale is that they stay loose until the dog pulls. Poodles have relatively narrow heads. A buckle collar needs to be worn tight in order to be secure enough on a poodle. I get the widest band available so as to distribute the pressure across the neck.. pressure I like having a chain because it makes a clicking noise as it tightens, giving the dog one more hint he needs to stop pulling. The chain also loosens easily when the pressure is released.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

cowpony said:


> I've had the best success using a harness to introduce the puppy to the idea of walking on a leash and then graduating to a wide combination nylon chain martingale at young adulthood.
> 
> Puppies tend to run in circles around my legs, get distracted and lunge at blowing leaves, and do other silly things that could result in an abrupt stop. I'd rather the force of that stop hit the chest and not the windpipe. Therefore, I use a harness the first time I put the puppy on the leash and for the first few months.
> 
> ...


Is the martingale safe for a mini? Remy doesn’t pull much, but his girlfriend is a puller and the one that’s having trouble pulling.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

I would rethink the training procedure. The first thing I do with a puppy or dog is long line work. Using a long leash, 10, 15, or 20 feet, I let the dog go where he wants, but as soon as he hits the end of the leash I change directions. No warning, I just change directions and the dog follows my lead (with a big dog I make sure I am pulling to the side, not the rear). It doesn't take long for the dog to stay within the perimeter of the leash and to pay more attention to where you are. I then move to slapping my leg to get his attention and come to me. I would not move to hell until he has mastered this.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I have my minipoo puppy Theo, in puppy classes with a regular collar and a leash. I don’t see a problem if the teacher is helping your friend with training and not standing back watching the dog pull.

Theo is my first puppy that I’ve trained. I got Babykins my silver minipoo when she was almost a year old and we compete in Competition Obedience and Rally. I’m using all the tricks I learned teaching her and applying them to my puppy. While I’m training him to heel to the level of competition obedience which is not the same as loose leash or normal heeling, the things I’m doing would also help your friend and her dog.

I’m working hard to keep my dog focused on me when we walk so he doesn’t pull. I often have food in my hand and treat him, sometimes I have a toy that I dangle or squeak. I’ve taught him to target my hand...good treats come from that hand. I do “look it” games and practice having him sit next to me in heel position while I pop treats in his mouth For looking at my face. Treats are always fed with his mouth touching my pant leg or he has to jump up on my leg to keep him close. I’ve gotten him to stick to my leg like glue and start to heel when I move my left foot. I’m talking to my dog (not too much, just to tell him he’s a good boy) and looking at him when walking. I want him 100% focused on me and I’m on him so he ignores the other dogs in the class. My leash is loose the whole time.

I‘ve noticed the other handlers in my puppy class are pulling or popping their dogs leashes or hold the leash very short to keep their dogs walking.... IMO their dogs aren’t learning much except to be yanked around. The teachers did show people how to use food to lure their dog and talked about stopping and turning another direction etc all good advice. But I didn‘to see anyone practice that. I was the only dog owner in the class who competed, in dog sports.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It's so much easier if you leash train a puppy when s/he is at the "follow mama everywhere" stage. I have always used the "leash popping" technique to remind dogs to walk right beside me without pulling or lagging. By "leash popping", I mean a quick, firm tug on the leash to remind the dog s/he is attached.


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## Yellow (Sep 24, 2018)

I got my harness, collar, & soft slip collar ( for training ) at White Pine collars. Am happy with all three. But my mini is a puller and got a micro prong collar to use on walks.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think all tools, including Martingales are safe for any age/size dog as long as they are used properly. I use pinch collars with my dogs but not to teach them not to pull on leash.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I have my minipoo puppy Theo, in puppy classes with a regular collar and a leash. I don’t see a problem if the teacher is helping your friend with training and not standing back watching the dog pull.
> 
> Theo is my first puppy that I’ve trained. I got Babykins my silver minipoo when she was almost a year old and we compete in Competition Obedience and Rally. I’m using all the tricks I learned teaching her and applying them to my puppy. While I’m training him to heel to the level of competition obedience which is not the same as loose leash or normal heeling, the things I’m doing would also help your friend and her dog.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your thoughtful advice! Could you explain “treats are always fed with his mouth touching my pant leg.” I never heard of this and it sounds interesting.

I’m planning to train Remy to compete in Rally. We’re getting a slow start due to COVID which kept us in lockdown and drove my previous trainer out of business. I asked my original question because I’m still not sure of my new trainer, particularly in light of the advice she gave my friend to attach the leash to her cavapoo’s collar to discourage pulling.

Remy and Babykins are probably related - two silver minis from Aery. Remy is such a good little dog. I got him at 10 weeks and I swear he already knew how to heal perfectly on command off leash. Now we just need to get him to do it on leash in the training studio - a room full of people and several 60 pound puppies.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Bigbark said:


> Remy and Babykins are probably related - two silver minis from Aery. Remy is such a good little dog. I got him at 10 weeks and I swear he already knew how to heal perfectly on command off leash. Now we just need to get him to do it on leash in the training studio - a room full of people and several 60 pound puppies.


Zoe is probably related to Remy as well - her sire is Ch. Aery's King of the Castle.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I also use where I deliver treats to help keep my dogs at proper heel position as Skylar mentioned. Where that spot is can vary with the size of the puppy/dog though. I hold treats in my left hand closer up by my waist so there is no mugging the treats and I also keep my hand a bit out from my pants leg to discourage wrapping necks on my leg. Lily and Javelin are adult standards though. I think you can do a lot to start with preparing for rally now. Look at the info on the AKC rally pages. Make sure you learn how to do the signs yourself then add in your pup/partner. You can have a Martingale or a flat collar, even a slip collar, but not harnesses in a rally trial ring. I would also recommend a 6' leash for the levels (novice and intermediate) that are on leash since certain signs are done on a leash and require distance to do correctly. Have fun!


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

lily cd re said:


> I also use where I deliver treats to help keep my dogs at proper heel position as Skylar mentioned. Where that spot is can vary with the size of the puppy/dog though. I hold treats in my left hand closer up by my waist so there is no mugging the treats and I also keep my hand a bit out from my pants leg to discourage wrapping necks on my leg. Lily and Javelin are adult standards though. I think you can do a lot to start with preparing for rally now. Look at the info on the AKC rally pages. Make sure you learn how to do the signs yourself then add in your pup/partner. You can have a Martingale or a flat collar, even a slip collar, but not harnesses in a rally trial ring. I would also recommend a 6' leash for the levels (novice and intermediate) that are on leash since certain signs are done on a leash and require distance to do correctly. Have fun!


Yes - thank you. I trained my last standard boy for rally and even though we never competed, it made our daily walkies a ton of fun and probably even saved his life once when I was walking him in the city. I’m a true believer in rally training. It’s a lot harder with a mini! I’m not supposed to bend forward due to a slipped disk in my back so getting the treat in the correct spot is killing me. I tried peanut butter on a long handled spoon but Remy wasn’t interested. He’s not super food motivated.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Johanna said:


> Zoe is probably related to Remy as well - her sire is Ch. Aery's King of the Castle.


 it’s possible, Babykins is related to Johanna’s Zoe. 

I personally don’t like the spoon technique. Some people also use containers they can hang down to drip food or push up lick sticks.

I’m treating my dog on my leg to teach him to stay in heel position as close as possible. It helps for rally too if you want to compete and useful walking a pet dog in a crowd or around other dogs. As Catherine above points out you have to know your dog. Some dogs will wrap around your leg which interferes with proper heeling while other dogs lag behind you. This is beyond loose leash heeling for pets. If I didn’t compete in obedience I wouldn’t be so picky

I have a spot on my leg that puts my dog in proper heel and that’s where I treat. But it does mean I have to bend so you won’t want to do this.

The jump up to treat will work for you. It serves to keep your dog close to you and focused on you. Pick a place on your upper leg where your hand hangs normally that keeps your dog close to a heel which means somewhere near the seam of your pants. Train your dog to jump up to get the treat as their reward. My command is “get it”. Here’s how it works. We start healing and I like what my dog is doing so I mark it with a cue or clicker then I say get it and let them jump up for a treat.

There is no treat for random jumping. Only treat when you are rewarding and after invitation to jump up.

To teach jump up start by teaching target to your hand. Once your dog understands touching hand is a good trick they can learn to jump up to a hand to target then move hand next to your leg.


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