# Help me find breeders (working dog)



## fairhavenmagick

I have been reading here for a while and just introduced myself. I am a member of a search and rescue team. A standard poodle is top on my list for my next search and rescue candidate.

However, I think I'm going to be a bit of a toughie to find a match with. At least that's my impression from the bit I have gathered about the poodle world. First, because I would be a first time poodle owner, so I don't know pedigrees, good breeders, etc. And because of my requirments in a dog. 

Here's what I am ideally looking for- All typical health testing for spoos, Female, Silver (I live in TX, this is my color preference for practical reasons as well as cosmetic), fantastic drive and work ethic, prefer from parents who have some kind of 'work' title be it hunting, OB, agility. I don't mind having to travel (by plane or car), but it would be fantastic if it's within driving distance because I need the breeder to be willing to let me bring some search materials to test the pups on hopefully more than once (because I don't think I'll find a breeder with experience with HRD SAR dogs).

And here's the biggie- I need the breeder to be willing to give me breeding rights. It's very typical in the SAR/working dog world, actually you generally only see S/N dogs when they are rescues. People get their dogs and when they do their job's well they get their next dog from that one, and the next one, so on and so forth.

I have gone the rescue route with my previous two SAR dogs but I am really ready to get a breed I want and vastly increase my chances of producing SAR dogs. I have no issue whatsoever with doing any health testing, working with my breeder as a mentor, getting outside opinions, and definately getting help when it comes to choosing a stud dogs a few years down the road. I also will be doing OB and Rally at a minimum so odds are the dog would have other titles as well yearly national SAR certification testing. However, there is no way that I can keep a SAR dog in a show coat so the conformation ring is a no go. Lastly, I have no problem spaying if health screenings aren't passed, or if she doesn't work out as a working dog, etc.

I would prehaps consider a male if that pup showed the best aptitude for SAR work but would also want to leave him intact.

So, am I wishing for the impossible? Or is there a breeder(s) out there I can start contacting to discuss this stuff with? Point me in the right direction! It seems to me that kennel names are okay to post here but also feel free to PM me. With possible breeders or people that maybe seem good but that I should avoid.

Thanks!


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## JE-UK

How cool! I would love to see a working Poodle SAR dog. 

I'm in the wrong country and have the wrong size and don't breed, so no help at all, but I'm sure there are Standard people who will chime in.

If it were me, I'd start by finding lines I'm interested in from poodle registries and agility results and just start writing to those breeders. 

I seem to recall finding a website somewhere when I was looking for my poodle, a Miniature breeder that was specifically breeding for agility. I'll try to find it; I know you are looking for a Standard, but this breeder might know a Standard breeder with similar goals.

Good luck!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I would contact Susan Fraser at Bibelot Poodles. Her lines do fantastic in all performance events..herding, field, rally, agility and obedience and would likely do very well in SAR work. The only issue I see in what you are hoping for is the breeding rights. But, there is never any harm in asking, and there might be something you could work out together.


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## Dogsinstyle

Jillian at APAW American Poodles At Work: Our Poodles
had a litter with her SAR dog Harmony last fall. I don't know if she has any left or future breeding plans though.


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## cbrand

I think between color and full registration that your requirements are too narrow. As you dip your toe into the breeding world, something else to consider: SAR dogs are often very, very high drive. They need to be high drive in order to stick with the job until the end. If you breed for this temperament, where are you going to place the puppies who don't go into SAR homes? There is a good chance that they will be too much for their pet owners to handle. 

I don't know much about the SAR world but I am surprised to hear that it is typical to work intact dogs and bitches. I have done competitive Obedience and I can tell you that my bitch is way less focused when she is in season. Given that she cycled every 20 weeks, having her intact took a huge chunk out of my training/showing time. 

I think you would be better off just getting a new puppy from a breeder each time you needed a new dog to train.


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## blkpudel

Tudorose poodles
Tudorose Poodles - Home

Mostly black, but I think you'll have to compromise on colour.

Bibelot, yes, one bitch of her breeding got her Master Hunter title. (silver, white, blue/grey)

Louter Creek Hunting poodles (red)

Lakeland Hunting Poodles (he has a black bitch from Tudorose I think he's going to breed her this year)

If you're interested in the small standard/kleinpudel size Karin might be breeding a couple of litters of that size this year. Karbit Poodles. There are 2 Karbit poodles on this site, Vinnie and my Rudy. Karin's dogs are VERY drivey, they have natural tails and almost all are of German or Russian bloodlines.


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## fairhavenmagick

Thanks for the help! I realize that it's probably not going to be an easy search, which it why I am starting it way in advance of any real 'need' for my next dog. 

I guess silvers are a bit less common than I realized (I know of course the majority are black/white). My reasoning for this color (other than how pretty it is) is because of our heat here in TX, the darker dogs tire much more quickly while working in the summer, and I was trying to steer away from white/cream just to make my life easier when it comes to clean. I would consider an apricot although my current dog is very apricoty and she can be harder to visually track when she ranges far away from me.

I know that breeding rights are going to be my biggest hurdle. While I have experience handling dogs through pregnancy, raising a litter, and helping to rehome, (rescue animals) I have never intentionally bred. I am willing to work with a breeder to do whatever makes them comfortable, I have even looked at being a foster, then buying my next pup from the litter of my dog when it comes time. It isn't ideal since I wouldn't be there for the day to day raising but something I have thought about. I would love to have someone as a mentor and someone to help as the time came, but they would have to be okay with a dog that has performance titles and a important job instead of a conformation title.

SAR dogs can be high drive, but we don't want them to be as high drive as say a narc dog, police dog, border patrol. We look for pretty middle of the line with the puppy aptitude tests. What they do need (for my purposes) is an interest and love of the source (human remains). I actually prefer my dogs more food motivated than toy motivated personally. It's nice to have both though. My current dog is a pup I found on the highway when she was about 4 weeks old. I lucked out and she loves the source, but she could easily be just a pet- granted one that would benefit from OB training and exercise but what dog wouldn't? My previous dog was the same.

From what I have learned and read about spoos, pretty much any with work ethic (hunting, OB, agility) should work out well as long as they like the source. That personality/drive seems very typical in poodles so I don't foresee issues finding homes for pups that are typical of the breed standard. If the type of drive I wanted wasn't already common in poodles I would look elsewhere for a different breed. Those with a higher drive would go to more active/performance homes, and those that didn't would go to more laid back homes.

It is common to run intact dogs. Females can be harder to work when in heat, but we train them to work through it and it's also a really good distraction for the other dogs to have to work through. During a certification, seminar, or real search any bitches in heat would run last. Again, I am also open to a male but I this point I have preferred the female partenership.

There is a huge difference between trying to find a puppy each time you need a dog and raising your own litter. Being able to give those puppies toys with source scent on them from day 4, and seeing them grow and play and their personalities everyday is light years difference from assessing a litter once or twice and choosing a pup. Choosing a SAR dog is always a bit of a gamble, if I can in the future put the odds in my favor that's what I'd like to do.

Again, thanks for the pointers and the support!


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## cbrand

fairhavenmagick said:


> I guess silvers are a bit less common than I realized (I know of course the majority are black/white). My reasoning for this color (other than how pretty it is) is because of our heat here in TX, the darker dogs tire much more quickly while working in the summer, and I was trying to steer away from white/cream just to make my life easier when it comes to clean.


A White dog gets just as dirty as a Black dog. 

That said, I do understand the desire for a light colored dog because I live in Colorado and I know how intense the sun can be. Personally I also like White/Cream Poodles because they are easier to see at night. 

Silver is a tricky thing. The true Platinum Silver standards are few and far between. Many Silver Standards are more in the range of Pewter to light Grey and often they don't go Silver at all but stay Blue, which might be too dark for your purpose. 

I think White or Cream is your best bet. It gives you a wider range options. Still, the full registration thing is going to be tricky. It is a trust issue. A good breeder may be OK with you breeding, but who are you going to sell your puppies to? As a breeder, one of my biggest fears is that my dogs or bloodlines are going to end up in a BYB program.

I may have missed it in your intro, but have you put an Obedience or Agility title on a dog before?



> Those with a higher drive would go to more active/performance homes, and those that didn't would go to more laid back homes.


Be warned. There are not exactly a plethora of performance homes out there. Even worse, there are buyers who say that they want to do performance but who never actually get around to it.


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## fairhavenmagick

cbrand- Thank you for taking the time read through my super long posts and give me advice. My best case scenario would be to find someone now that I can get to know and that can get to know me. That way we can work something out that both I and the breeder are comfortable with. My current pup is only 11 months, so while I'm used to having two dogs to work I am not in any rush to get another. Also, if I have pups I fully intend to place them with spay/neuter contracts. I understand where breeders are coming from and generally take the same stance. I guess I am just hoping that someone will give me a chance to prove myself prior to getting a dog and then prove ourselves as a team. Like I said, I have no problem altering the dog if it isn't a good candidate for whatever reason.

I have not put anything but SAR stuff and CGCs on my dogs yet. My older SAR dog was poised to enter the OB ring and was in agility training when she was injured putting her out of commission as anything but a beloved pet. Current dog has been in OB training since she was a pup, has her CGC and is now registered with AKC Parteners. So hopefully she'll make her ring debut in a few months. SAR has always come first for us so while she's done everything from riding escaltors, to agility in a collapsed parking garage, to riding in a plane, I plan on making the time this year to polish up a couple things and get her into some competitions.
White/cream may be the way I end up having to go. I hate the idea of the staining that will likely occur (I have white horses too, TX dirt is not fun) but since I will be keeping a shorter coat anyway hopefully it won't be awful to keep on top of.


Everyone Else- Thanks so much for the breeder suggestions. I haven't really looked into Kleins before (learn something new everyday). But having a slighter smaller dog is not without its benefits. Especially since I have a 60lb dog. Covers more situations that way


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## Angie

I just wanted to add a couple more names that I have come across while researching kennels. 

Julie Tune has Alemir Poodles. She started in poodles through service dogs. I know they look for the same middle of the road temperament in a service dog that you seem to be looking for. She may have some appropriate temperament dogs but I don't remember where she is located.
Also Black Tie Standards in Florida has silvers. Some of her dogs do obedience. Can't remember her name at the moment. 
Good luck in your search.


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## PoodleChick

*SAR Poodles*

Hi. If I knew your first name I would say "Hi ___", but i don't so I'll have to just leave it at "hello".
Okay, so, I have a 13-year old silver Standard from Bibelot/G'Day lines. He is retired from SAR but we spent many years on an HRD-only team, after trying our skills at disaster dog training (with a FEMA Task Force) and, initially, some live find work with CARDA. Short story shorter; HRD was his strong suit. Sterling (G'Day Walkabout In Silver) was the first certified cadaver dog of his breed in the US, though not the first certified SAR poodle. I think that accolade goes to Darla Dehlin and Lady Victoria Of Marsan. 
If you are determined to get silver you probably could ask Susan Fraser, as others have suggested. My dog's sire, Bibelot's Silver Power Play, was a hunting dog, though he hunted fowl, not "foul". Hardy har har. 
However, I would have to say that some of the most driven dogs I have ever met have been Tudorose dogs. They are nice working dogs.
I would be happy to discuss with you more of what you want or need and what you should expect in working a poodle. I love to talk about poodles and SAR!
I wanted to mention that I have never heard anyone in SAR say that they prefer intact dogs for future SAR litters. I have known of many SAR handlers who preferred intact dogs due to their own background in law enforcement (where intact males are the norm) or due to their belief that intact males work harder than neutered males (not true, but again, myths die a hard death) or because they are concerned about the effect of early spay/neuter on their dog's health. The last is the only reasoning I can find any validity in, IME, anyway. The team I was on the longest encouraged handlers to wait a year to spay/neuter. I don't mean to sound challenging to you, I just wonder where you are getting that information about breeding your own future SAR dogs and if it is credible. I can guess that is perhaps the preference of the people you train with, but it is not the norm by any means. Having intact dogs searching can be fine or it can be a royal P.I.T.A. 
If you are hoping to imprint a dog on HRD, you can always send teeth, bone, hair to the breeder and ask that the puppy be imprinted on those things by being fed close to them, having play sessions with those items in containers with holes punched in them, etc.. However, the last time I looked at the literature there was nothing to suggest that a dog that was exposed to the source odor at birth had any advantage over an equally committed dog who had not been imprinted with it. 
Maybe something has come out that I am not aware of, wouldn't be a first time for that, but if so I would love to see it.
I'm trying to think of breeders closer to you who might be willing to work with you on your requirements for a SAR candidate. Many, MANY breeders are eager for their puppies to go to a SAR home, and many of them will be happy to sell you a puppy knowing that this dog will be serving honorably. But almost no breeders understand what goes into making and maintaining a SAR dog, so picking that right puppy "for SAR" is going to go somewhat over their heads. There was a very unfortunate time shortly after 9/11 when every breeder in the world claimed to have dogs who could do SAR. I think breeders are more aware of what SAR dogs are and are not now, but there will be alot of educating going on, particularly since this marvelous breed is almost unknown in SAR. Now if you were looking for a good Border Collie, Golden or GSD....
I believe that the attributes of a good fieldwork prospect are pretty much the same as a good SAR prospect, with perhaps a bit less prey drive. 
And hats off to you for wanting to do alot of good things with your poodle-to-be! Sterling went on to get his UD, his RAE and his TD, he was a Delta-certified pet therapy dog, and he only retired from tracking and pet therapy when he contracted cancer of the gum and had to have radiation therapy. He is four years clean of squamous cell cancer and that is his biggest triumph.
Lynne & Sterling


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## robin

I have nothing to contribute to this conversation, except to say that Poodlechick, your post was truly incredibly helpful. Thank you.


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## Feralpudel

PoodleChick said:


> Okay, so, I have a 13-year old silver Standard from Bibelot/G'Day lines.
> Lynne & Sterling


Hey Lynne, it's great to see you here, and I'm so glad you chimed in...I thought of you immediately when I read the OP. We met at the PCA tracking test--did you ever get a puppy?


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## PoodleChick

Hi Adele!
Nope, not yet. Well, I did and I didn't. Do you get Poodle Variety? My story will be in the Stud Issue. Isn't that a teaser? 
Lynne


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## fairhavenmagick

Lynne, 

I'm so glad you stopped by! You have already been mentioned to me by two people- I am happy I have lucked into someone who has done what I'd like to do.

I agree with you that an HRD imprinted dog isn't necessarily better than one that was not (though I believe it might help with dogs that would otherwise have an adverse reaction to source scent, but those would more that likely not make it to certification anyway). Hopefully I can find a breeder who isn't too grossed out to let the pups play with some special HRD laced toys. I think the benefit (when raising your own litter) is being able to assess the pups from day 1. Living with them every day. I think it vastly increases of choosing a successful candidate. Of the pups I have known bred by their handlers & selected as candidates all have been successful as SAR dogs (when placed with novice handlers as well as experienced). Of course there is never a guarantee but I will say that our 4th generation HRD dogs are very different than the other dogs on the team. They seem to know their jobs from their first day out.

In my area at least it is common to breed for your own dogs or get a pup from another handler who has bred their dog. It seems to be that scenario or rescues. Those two are the majority. I'm sure it's different in every area and even within every team based on their needs.

I am excited about the prospect of finally getting a spoo (although still a ways off at this point) I probably would have been further along by now if I hadn't found a 4wk old pup on the side of the highway almost a year ago  But things work out as they should since I had to suddenly retire my main dog a few months later.

I'm happy to hear the Sterling is doing well and is living cancer free. I have read a bit about him from links others have given me. He's a looker and seems like he was very good at his job. I also am going to PM you my email address as well.

Thanks!


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## Sutton Bend

Would you mind explaining a little about the desired traits and qualifications for people wanting to become involved in SAR? For instance I am afraid of heights, is that a deal breaker? Is that too far off topic? Thanks in advance.


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## Feralpudel

PoodleChick said:


> Hi Adele!
> Nope, not yet. Well, I did and I didn't. Do you get Poodle Variety? My story will be in the Stud Issue. Isn't that a teaser?
> Lynne


Awwww, man, you are a sadist! I was already waiting impatiently for the stud issue, and you made it worse!


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## fairhavenmagick

Sutton- I guess being afraid of heights depends on where you live! In TX, not much of an issue but if you live in the mountains with lots of cliffs in the area and your doing wilderness SAR than you might an a problem 

Honestly, when I am doing disater training heights are part of the game. But in my much more frequent day to day stuff I don't encounter a lot of heights. I do wilderness, building, and vehicles searches. I do have to go by steep banks of streams that can be high but that's one of the only things I can think of off the top of my head. But since I'm not afraid of heights I may not be looking at it from the right angles (haha). Really though, I don't see why it would have to be a deal breaker, especially if your fear isn't disabling.

Qualities needed- Dedication is number one. SAR takes a lot of time, my only other hobby is my horses and that has taken a serious backseat now that I am more involved with the dog stuff. I am also trying to get my dog into the ring this year for rally and OB, it's going to take some calendar crunching and serious planning to make it all work. Also, because you will be working in all kinds of weather and probably as many varies as terrain as you have near you. If you doing live find the hours can be long and any time of the day or night. For HRD your often a little more flexible about planning searches at optimum times of the day and letting the dogs have more breaks.
You also have to be good with working in a team, following orders/directions and being methodical and organized.

There will be some studying (and a ton of learning!) involved. Likely, you will have to get certifications in first aid, navigation, search work (google NASAR SARTECH III), crime scence awareness, NIMS (Natl Incident Management System) compliance, and a few other things. All of this comes before certifying with your dog (if you are talking about being a K9 handler). Some teams have you join as a flanker or support staff in searches for a certain period of time before becoming a canine handler.


The best thing you can do, along when general googling, is contact the team closest to you, see what their requirements are. 

There is more I'm not thinking about right now, and it is very rewarding work. If you have other questions feel free to ask or PM me!


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## amerique2

What does HRD stand for?


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## PoodleChick

HRD = Human Remains Detection (cadaver dog)
Lynne


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## ThunderRun

*SAR dogs*

I'm sure no one has read this thread in a while, but in case they do the biggest issue with what the advice has been is letting someone else choose your SAR dog. I have a SAR dog, and she is quite mellow in the house, but ready to work in the field. People tend to think that if you want a SAR dog you should take the "crazy" one from the litter. This simply isn't the case. The crazy ones are hard to direct, won't train easily, and won't want to work with you but do their own thing. You want a dog that has stamina, like the hunting line poodles or even ones that dog agility or hike, but also settle down in the house and in the kennel to and from searches. On my team I've seen the mellowest BC ever, and he's amazing in the field. Leave to someone else and you are going to get a dog you can't live with. 

I am in talks to have a breeding SAR poodle myself, and I am training a SAR Malinois also. She is a joke amongst other SAR Mals because she isn't crazy, I can leave in the house without her chewing up the couch. I don't want a hi drive Mal that has to have its teeth removed because it broke them trying to rip open their kennel. So why would you want that in a poodle also? The truth is that you don't. You want hunt drive, not prey drive, they are very different. 

I do agree that you will have to take care in where you place your puppies, but you are likely to get the full spectrum of lazy to crazy in each litter...just like every other litter. There are a lot of companion dog breeders, but dogs that can keep us fit, do some work, and still be healthy are needed. A male will be easier to breed and still work. A female will have to stop working while she gestates and has the puppies. After that she'll come into heat more often, but she should still work even in heat. And other dogs searching should also keep working. If they can't search with a bitch around then they aren't very good. 

I look forward to supporting Akira Poodles and APAW, especially when choosing my foundation dog. My only suggestion is to think of your SAR dog as a dog, and not get hung up on the fact that is a poodle. Either its a good SAR dog or its not. Being a poodle is just an awesome extra. Oh, and wait for the right dog to come, you'll be working with it a while.


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## fairhavenmagick

Thanks so much for your reply!

I got my girl, and this October she certified through NAPWDA as a Cavadar Dog. She had also has her UKC Ch and her CGC. She will be 15 months old in few days. Lovin' my first poodle!


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## ThunderRun

*Great news!*

Where did you end up getting your poodle from? I'd be interested in where you go with this line of poodles.


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## 3dogs

Me too- I found this thread very interesting. Would love to know how you found the right breeder & chose the right dog for your needs.


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## ThunderRun

fairhavenmagick said:


> she certified through NAPWDA as a Cavadar Dog.


Are you on a working SAR team? The NAPWDA training looks great, but their bylaws say that the cadaver cert is only good for one year and only if you work on a police force? So did you find a place to work her on a regular basis or were only able to get a certification?

A one years certification sounds pretty short. It takes a lot of work to pass those tests.


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## PoodleChick

I'm not sure which member you are asking so I'll answer in case it is me.
A one-year cert for cadaver is not unusual. On the team I was on, one year we recerted with a modified test that required finding two items inside or outside, could have areas with no item, but in general was done inside rooms and there were two or more items to be found.
The odd year and the initial cert was a one acre test that had a minimum of two items, one hanging and one buried, and you had an hour to find both items. If the dog false alerted and the handler recognized it as such, and if the dog continued on to find the real items, it was still a pass. However if the handler called a false alert a real alert, the dog failed. 
After I left the team the State changed it's requirements but I don't know offhand what they are.
I believe NAWPDA has a civilian section that also listst the tests they will administer to non-LEO handlers. They include cadaver. I'm saying that from memory so I ought to go look, eh?


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## fairhavenmagick

NAPWDA does allow civilians to become non-voting members, you need a LEO member to sign off for you to join. Your certification is valid when responding at the request of law enforcement.
Most certifying organizations only offer one or sometimes two year certs. I'm just fine with that as it means you and your dog must keep up your training. Recent and recurring certs from outside organizations are becoming more important, especially if you end up having to go to court.

My team is a national non-profit organization (501c3). We respond at the request of law enforcement. Mostly in our area and state, sometimes out of state, and once in a blue moon out of country. We typically train at least 20 hours a month, more often it's closer to 50 hours. 

I ended up getting my girl from Mithril Standard Poodles. She is not breeding for the time being as she is working overseas. When I was looking I found about 5 breeders that would fit my requirements and that would accept me and my needs. Of those 5, 3 of them got some of their foundation stock from Mithril. And she ended up being only a couple hours away.
My pup is mostly from Australian and Swedish stock that were incorporated into Mithril's lines.


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## ThunderRun

*Certs*

Oh, I know that dog certs are one year, it was just unclear to me that you were on a team. For a moment I couldn't figure out why you would do all the certs and training and not get to put it to use, but you cleared that right up. Which is awesome! It does make sense to have a second certifying agency to validate your finds if you go to court. Plus, the cert is recognized by NIMS and FEMA. That's a huge kudos on you for the training. Poodles can do anything.


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## ThunderRun

*SAR poodle breeders*



3dogs said:


> Would love to know how you found the right breeder & chose the right dog for your needs.


I can only speak from my experience, but I started looking for breeders that kept intact tails. For stability I want a full tail, which removes many show breeders from the possibilities. Not that they don't have drivey dogs, one of my pet poodles is the best hunting dog ever, and would have made a fabulous SAR dog. However, I got involved in SAR when she was too old to start training, over 5 yo. So I trained with my youngest dog, 1.5 yo. 

I was told to look for two things in a puppy. 1) Does it run up to you as a stranger and enthusiastically engage you? 2) will it play with a toy and bring it back repeatedly. A cadaver dog should ignore live people but not be scared of them, and a live recovery dog needs to run right up to them. 

I personally recommend breeders I know have performance in their lines but also have healthy dogs, such as Tudorose or Akira. I am not sure what Helen King's kennel is called, but she is a great resource. These breeders would also know who else to go to. 

Many of the breeders with great websites have to use fancy pictures to promote a dog that has a health issue they are hiding. Just don't let someone pick a dog for you. You have to do the research and pick the pup yourself so that you can be responsible for helping its shortcomings. Every dog will have something to work on, if you don't know what it is then you are behind the curve. 

Its true though, that a few breeders have told me that they don't want their dogs working, they are pets only. Probably because they did not breed the right temperament or structure for working and it would be bad on their lines if you worked a dog into hip displaysia. Getting a dog sight unseen from overseas can be risky, so you might have to travel there to meet the breeder and be sure the parents have traits you like. Unless of course you are ok with owning several dogs before you get the right one.


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