# Curly Tail... Don't Breed?



## ladybird

Here's Nimbus again (7 months old), in a proper stack I hope, the hair on his body isn't longer than 1 inch (he's just been clipped) so it shows his topline quite nicely











he does have a curly tail, I call it his monkey tail. This is how he usually holds his tail. In a tight curl










Aside from that being a major fault... how is the rest of him? People say not to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but is it ethical to breed from a poodle like him with such a curly tail? A *lot* of them have curved tails that are carried over the back (that I've seen at least), including the one at Crufts that was on TV earlier today. Not bad, but the tip was curved over the back which is against the breed standard. It certainly wasn't straight and held away from the body, anyway. But if all of the poodles with such curly tails were not bred, it would shrink the gene pool an aweful lot. What do you think?


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## outwest

You live in a country that no longer docks. If you look at your boys tail, it is straight to the point where people used to dock. It is going to take years and years of careful breeding for straight tails to finally get them with regularity. My girl has a super long dock (only one or two joints removed) and her tail curls at about four inches up, also. If I breed her, I would make sure the male had a straight tail. For you, don't breed him to any girl without a straight tail. 

To me the only major things your boy lacks (I do not consider a tail a major thing) is an elegant head, perhaps his back isn't flat (can't tell from this picture) and his shoulders are too far forward (along with 80% of all poodles). He has too much skin under his head (it should be tight- this is fairly minor). He is holding his head up very nicely, is a pretty color (same as my girl ) and appears to have some muscle and substance, which I prefer as long as he is still prancy and poodly in movement. His feet are near perfect. He looks square. His neck appears long enough, too. In your country, the heads are bulkier than they are here, but if you breed try to find a girl with a longer foreface and more chiseling under the eyes. Your dog has a nice straight nose- good. 

I posted my girl for others thoughts. It is brave to do, but was helpful to me. I solidfied what I thought were her weaknesses and clarified the things to try and improve. You have to take your emotion out of it and look at your dog with a very critical eye. 

There is a lot more to breeding than looks, also. I assume you would do all the health testing?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ditto what Outwest said. If his tail were docked, the flaw would not be visible.


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## zyrcona

If you're putting him to stud, unless you have your own bitch you want to breed him with, then it will likely be others making the choice as to whether he is suitable to put with their bitch. 

The KC breed standard does not precisely say that a curly tail is a fault. It just says 'as straight as possible' for an undocked tail. It certainly doesn't say anything about it being a major fault, although it does say a few things about docked tails being carried wrong as faults. There's no uniformity in what their tails look like as the curly portion was historically removed and has not been selected for or fixed within the breed. Your curly-tailed dog is just as likely to produce a 'banana tail' (which seems to be the straightest you can get it on a poodle) as two banana tails are likely to produce a curly one.

(I think he is a nice boy, but his chest could be improved and he is too jowly. If you do breed him and decide to take a pick of the litter, I would go for the one with the tautest face as this seems to be something that is hard to breed out. The 'lump' in his back where his tail curls over may be an artifact of how he's been trimmed, or it may not.)


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## DivinityPoodles

Just an FYI...
one of the reasons you do not want a curly tail on a poodle is that the tail can get caught on weeds etc when they are swimming, and they could potentially drown. Especially scary if the dog is going to be used for hunting and will likely encounter weed infested waters.


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## zyrcona

Luvmyspoos said:


> Just an FYI...
> one of the reasons you do not want a curly tail on a poodle is that the tail can get caught on weeds etc when they are swimming, and they could potentially drown. Especially scary if the dog is going to be used for hunting and will likely encounter weed infested waters.


I've never heard of a dog getting caught in the water and drowning because of the shape of its tail, and I suspect this may be one of the many tail docking myths in circulation. A curled tail isn't fixed rigidly in that shape like a boat hook -- it's just the position the dog habitually carries its tail in. The dog is able to straighten its tail, and frequently does when it is running and jumping. Dogs usually swim with their tails straight and level behind them to act as a rudder, and even if the curl in a dog's tail did get caught in reeds, the dog should be able to straighten its tail in order to extricate itself.


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## ladybird

outwest said:


> To me the only major things your boy lacks (I do not consider a tail a major thing) is an elegant head, perhaps his back isn't flat (can't tell from this picture) and his shoulders are too far forward (along with 80% of all poodles). He has too much skin under his head (it should be tight- this is fairly minor). He is holding his head up very nicely, is a pretty color (same as my girl ) and appears to have some muscle and substance, which I prefer as long as he is still prancy and poodly in movement. His feet are near perfect. He looks square. His neck appears long enough, too. In your country, the heads are bulkier than they are here, but if you breed try to find a girl with a longer foreface and more chiseling under the eyes. Your dog has a nice straight nose- good.





zyrcona said:


> (I think he is a nice boy, but his chest could be improved and he is too jowly. If you do breed him and decide to take a pick of the litter, I would go for the one with the tautest face as this seems to be something that is hard to breed out. The 'lump' in his back where his tail curls over may be an artifact of how he's been trimmed, or it may not.)


so his lacking points are coarse head, shoulders too far forward, jowls and of course that tightly curled tail. His good points are he's square, great feet, good neck, I'd say good ears too, they are long and poodley, leathers almost reaching the end of his nose when pulled forward. His movement is lovely to watch, from behind he looks like he is 'skipping' because he lifts his feet up when trotting

so, what is his chest supposed to be like? Anyone got pics?

This is his 'wet' photo before I blow-dried him, you can see his outline in case his back looked dodgy. to me it looks ok though?











Head shot











different angle, earlier pic so he is more fluffy











p.s. of course he will be health tested first! Health, temperament, THEN conformation is the criteria I think should be followed. His temperament is beautiful by the way. There's not a single bad bone in him!


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## Ms Stella

I think a curly tail is going to bee seen more and more as they get docked longer and longer. Madonnas mom has a tail that curls but doesn't lay on the back...she finished very quickly. If you go to judges standard poodles and to their champion pages you can see her, "judges one way or another". With long hair trimmed the rig way you can barely tell. Madonnas tail curls over and I actually love it. It will look better when hair grows but it's ALWAYS up..a curly tail seems to be that way. I'd say from seeing how many finished dogs and bitches have this "fault" it is not a major consideration. Your boy is a handsome guy.


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## tintlet

I have a video of a puppy with the same type tail. I don't want to post it publicly as it was sent by the buyer, but will share if you email me godgahl @ frontier.com ( take out the spaces). This is the first time he learned to swim..and you will notice his tail goes out straight behind him and acts as a rudder. Unless a curled tail is calcified in place, it will stretch out.


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## outwest

You know, his shoulders don't look too bad in that wet picture. If you draw a line up the front leg it shouldn't intersect with the neck and his look further back then I thought. People trim the hair on the back short near the tail to make that area look flatter. He seems to have a lot of skin on his back, too. Maybe he will grow into all that skin . 

He's a very good looking boy, but my understanding is that dogs almost always have a title of some kind. Many females do, but not as many. Mine has a UKC GrCh and isn't a particolored dog, so the UKC title doesn't mean nearly as much as an AKC CH. In a particolored dog, the UKC title is as much as you can get, so it means a little more for them. This means a dogs owner can refuse to breed to my bitch if they don't consider her good enough. If I breed my girl, I would like to find a dog with an AKC Ch. that would accept her. 

Conformation titles aren't the only thing people look for, though. Some are more interested in preformance titles or the holy grail - both. Since my dog only has a UKC title and showing AKC isn't in the cards, I have been thinking about getting some kind of preformance title on her. That may make her more desireable to a nicer male. Right now we are working on tricks, though, and tricks don't have a title. You might like search and rescue or agility. There are companion and obedience titles, too. 

If you are serious about it, you might want to look into working on one of these things for your dog since you aren't showing him for conformation.


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## zyrcona

outwest said:


> my understanding is that dogs almost always have a title of some kind.


Probably so in the USA, but it doesn't seem to be that way in the UK. I've no idea if showing works the same way in both countries, perhaps someone else here from the UK can comment? Standard poodles aren't that popular a breed here. Sometimes it seems to be quite difficult for breeders to find an unrelated stud to use.

I don't see any problem with him being offered for stud as a health-tested dog with a nice temperament, although if you did take up a dog sport it would add to his CV. I've certainly seen far worse advertised.  I think it would help the gene pool particularly if he is from a bloodline with no other closely related studs available.


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## outwest

A health tested dog with a nice temperament wouldn't cut it here except for some unscrupulous breeders (of which we have quite a few). I am trying to do everything right with my girl except I did not show AKC. Not showing AKC is an issue when you are talking about breeding, although my girl is from a good breeder who stopped showing AKC (another story). I wouldn't call standard poodles popular here, but maybe they are unusual there. Mine is one of only a handful I see around. We have an enormous number of poodle mixes, though. Those are everywhere you turn.


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## ladybird

outwest said:


> He's a very good looking boy, but my understanding is that dogs almost always have a title of some kind.


It's not like that here, and I agree that show titles aren't everything (they also encourage overbreeding of the same dogs). I know someone who studded their standard poodle to someone else's bitch, neither of them had any titles, and one of their puppies won 5th place at Crufts!



zyrcona said:


> I think it would help the gene pool particularly if he is from a bloodline with no other closely related studs available.


He isn't from a rare bloodline I wouldn't say. He has Afterglow Jamaica Me Crazy (totally overbred international champion) as both parents' grandfather, plenty of Dorvalle apricots (same as most apricots in the UK) and some Myall dogs on his mum's dad's side. The gene pool is small for apricots, unfortunately. He's estimated about 34% Wycliffe according to phrdatabase.org



outwest said:


> A health tested dog with a nice temperament wouldn't cut it here except for some unscrupulous breeders (of which we have quite a few).


Same as above... non-shown dogs, puppy won 5th place at Crufts. You don't need a judge telling you that your dog has good conformation! Very few dogs are shown compared to the population available. Most people don't have the time to look after the show coat and campaign their dogs so it's up to breeders and common sense to judge how good a particular dog is. And of course getting other people's opinions, like here!

p.s. limiting yourself to dogs who have been shown reduces the gene pool tragically. I bet a LOT of perfectly good dogs don't get shown for reasons above


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## outwest

ladybird said:


> p.s. limiting yourself to dogs who have been shown reduces the gene pool tragically. I bet a LOT of perfectly good dogs don't get shown for reasons above


Agree, agree, agree.


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## petitpie

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm trying to understand these breeding discussions. There is a consensus that breeding dogs should at least be tested for health. What I'm unclear about if whether or not there is consensus for breeding dogs that have (5-10?) good qualities, (1-4?) bad qualities, even if they have no titles, or no AKC titles? Diversity can then be assured in families and in the overall breed?


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## DivinityPoodles

In regards to the curly tail, I had a dog who could not uncurl her tail & it caught on everything. I am not talking about holding the tail a certain way but an actual curl in the tail that can & does get caught. 

I agree 100% that if AKC and CKC allowed adult dogs to be shown in a more 'moderate' haircut that there would probably be a great deal more dogs being shown. And I think the idea someone mentioned of a dog having to pass health testing prior to finishing is a brilliant idea. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## petitpie

If bybs charge as much (or more) for their AKC puppies as do responsible breeders, AKC should require that they health test them also for prospective buyers. Registration fees would be put to better use, with better monitoring and fewer litters, more homes and fewer rescues.


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## CharismaticMillie

It would be absurd to require health testing to be completed before finishing a dog because many are finished well before the age at which some tests can even be done.

My boy had CERF and hip prelims prior to showing. When he finished his championship, I did VWD, NE and DM. At PCA (he will be 17 mos. old) I'll do Cardiac and CERF (again). At 2 years of age, I'll do Thyroid, SA and OFA hips. 

A great proportion of people who show also health test. IMO the BYBs tend to do much less health testing.


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## outwest

The point was a dog shouldn't be able to finish without completing health testing. I think it is a valid point. They could show when young, but be required to win at least once after the age of two with completed health testing, but we're dreaming. It will never happen. Some countries require dogs to be adults before finishing. Too bad that will never happen here. 

I do agree that if they allowed poodles to be shown in more moderate cuts you would see a lot more of them out there. Coat quality would be evident at one or two inches. On the other hand, one important aspect of poodles is if they are capable of growing massive amounts of hair. You can't see that if they don't do it. Currently many weave in fake hair, though. What does it matter if they have huge amounts of hair if it isn't even theirs? It's a dilemma.


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## CharismaticMillie

I think it's a faulty argument. I see finishing a championship as being separate from health testing. I would consider it to be overregulation to require health testing to finish a championship. An ethical breeder will be involved with the breed, WILL do health testing and *most importantly* will use health testing results to influence their breeding. This will happen whether or not regulations are enforced. Similarly, BYBs will continue to not show their dog's and not health test their dogs.

Perhaps a separate certificate from AKC for completion of tests?


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## DivinityPoodles

And let's face it ... it would be more likely to have a dog finish after 2 years old & health testing if you did not have to try to maintain a coat or regrow it...:alberteinstein:

ETA: I don't know about overregulation... the problem is that an ethical breeder and a BYB are at opposite ends of the spectrum... it's the ones in the middle that use their finished champions prior to health testing being completed and find out after a few or several litters that there are health issues, maybe not enough to stop breeding all together but certainly to be very selective with the mate.


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## ladybird

petitpie said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm trying to understand these breeding discussions. There is a consensus that breeding dogs should at least be tested for health. What I'm unclear about if whether or not there is consensus for breeding dogs that have (5-10?) good qualities, (1-4?) bad qualities, even if they have no titles, or no AKC titles? Diversity can then be assured in families and in the overall breed?


I think it's more a question of figuring out the dog's good and bad points and choosing a mate who would complement those faults. No dog is perfect so they all have their bad points as well as good!



Luvmyspoos said:


> In regards to the curly tail, I had a dog who could not uncurl her tail & it caught on everything. I am not talking about holding the tail a certain way but an actual curl in the tail that can & does get caught.


Nimbus usually holds the very tip in a curl, like a hook at the end, but it doesn't get caught on things (it's flexible, he just doesn't straighten it)


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## petitpie

I hope that I'm not advocating over-regulation, but is it unrealistic to require that every dog be health tested and shown to complete AKC registration; to bring in more unrelated breeding stock, and so limit or stop bybs and breedings before completed health testing? Should breeding privileges and completed registration privileges be tied to such requirements? I've already learned here that responsible poodle breeding is about the love of the breed, and not about the money.


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## zyrcona

petitpie said:


> Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm trying to understand these breeding discussions. There is a consensus that breeding dogs should at least be tested for health. What I'm unclear about if whether or not there is consensus for breeding dogs that have (5-10?) good qualities, (1-4?) bad qualities, even if they have no titles, or no AKC titles? Diversity can then be assured in families and in the overall breed?


Opinions differ, but most people at least agree that breeding dogs should be health tested and the tests have adequate or better results. People who are more interested in genetics often are indifferent about showing or the results thereof, and people who are interested in showing more often hold the opinion that only show dogs should be bred.

I would consider any stud owner who health tests their dog (only allowing him to be used on bitches with compatible health test results), provides a loving home for him, whether it's as a pet, a show dog, or a working companion, and educates themselves on how to handle him properly to be responsible. This is because more individuals used in breeding programmes = better preservation of genetic diversity. The dog should be sound of body and of temperament.

With a breeding bitch, genetic diversity is to a certain degree enforced because breeders may only register four litters per bitch. There is more responsibility involved with rearing puppies, so on top of what I described in the stud owner part above, I would say that a brood bitch owner must have time to spend socialising and caring for the litter, a reliable source of income, a good emergency vet, and sufficient resources (money) to support any puppies the breeder cannot sell or are returned.


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## DivinityPoodles

zyrcona said:


> With a breeding bitch, genetic diversity is to a certain degree enforced because breeders may only register four litters per bitch. There is more responsibility involved with rearing puppies, so on top of what I described in the stud owner part above, I would say that a brood bitch owner must have time to spend socialising and caring for the litter, a reliable source of income, a good emergency vet, and sufficient resources (money) to support any puppies the breeder cannot sell or are returned.


I may be mistaken, but I don't think the litter limit is in effect in North America.
Can anybody clarify?


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