# mouthing issues - DESPERATE!



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

-Wants attention -- barks, jumps up, and grabs my wrist with his mouth continually - When he wants attention, and you do not have time to give it to him, put him in his crate, with a bone or a toy. Cover the crate, and walk away. Crate is calm, plus everything is easier without a puppy at your feet.

-We are in the car -- incessant nipping and biting at my arm for attention. I cannot drive unless he is buckled in the back. -This one is simple, your dog shouldn't be loose in the car, anyways. Just buckle him in every time you are in the car. 

-I try to make him do something he doesn't want to do (ex: put a harness on, take him by the collar to follow me when he doesn't want to) - You need to work on this, its a training issue, Right now putting the harness on, or the collar is negative. Put the harness on while also excessivly feeding your dog treats. Praise when he doesn't bite you. When you lead by the collar, use treats to guide him.

-Grooming -- I can't even dry him without snapping at my hands. Groomers say he is a problem. - Maybe he doesn't like the dryer. Is there a way you can stick him in the crate with the dryer in front? if not, turn the dryer on, don't point it at him, and feed treats. Slowly work up to using the dryer on him. 

-And sometimes he gets over excited and just starts jumping/mouthing/snapping. He has ripped several items of my clothing from jumping/biting while I try to make him stop. - Put him away. He'll learn that snapping at you gets him nowhere.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I hope @Raindrops will chime in here, because she really talked me down when I felt like I couldn’t take another minute of Peggy’s mouthiness. She was very similar to your puppy, except for the grooming part, and I managed it by being a boring statue (including no eye contact) to defuse the situation, and then teaching alternate, acceptable behaviours (such as _consistently_ sticking a toy in her mouth, even when we didn’t see immediate results). I also eased up on things I was doing that were inadvertently antagonizing her, such as asking for prolonged sits before throwing her ball. Now she’d sit forever if I asked that of her, but it didn’t happen overnight.

So building on that example, the best advice someone gave me here was to throw the ball the _moment_ she sat. The results of this were almost instantaneous. She stopped going over threshold every single time we played or trained. I also kept training sessions extremely short. Like 30 seconds. Now she’d be happy if we worked for an hour. But we had to work up to that.

The situation with grooming sounds to me like maybe your puppy wasn’t properly acclimated to the process. And it’s a long, sometimes uncomfortable process! I get it.

As you work on keeping him under threshold and teaching him appropriate coping behaviours (like biting a toy instead of a human!) this may translate to improved grooming sessions. Or maybe you need to take him right back to basics on this. Did your groomer move very slowly with him? And was he groomed as a young puppy, before you brought him home?

And are the current classes you’re taking based on positive reinforcement?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I should add: A puppy biting at a towel or brushes is perfectly normal. These things move quickly in sometimes unexpected ways. That is _thrilling_ to a dog and especially to a dog with a high prey drive (like so many standard poodles have). Maybe someone roughhoused with him when he was young and he equates the act of rubbing him down with playtime. If that’s the case, just move slowly and deliberately, consistently rewarding when he does the right thing. This is much more effective than shouting no or feigning hurt, which can easily escalate excitement.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Is there a time of day or pattern to when this happens? What's your schedule?

Have you taught calm? Engage disengage games/self control games (play play play, ask for a brief sit, play play play play, ending the game if the dog is too wound up to sit?) Relax on a mat? Down stays?

As for not wanting to do things - is this normal? I found it really worthwhile to spend the time to convince my dog that she WANTS to do things - I taught her to like having her harness put on, to want to come with me, etc. Removing conflict with your dog makes life a lot easier and improves your relationship a lot.

Also - I see you mention using training collars to try and solve this. I would put the training collars away especially since you also mention issues with the dog not liking you grabbing their collar.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We learned to make “collar grab!” a fun game in puppy class. Your puppy definitely needs to learn that it’s a good thing when humans reach for his collar.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

When I hear you talk about _a mood, _I think about _ooh, you need a nap._ How much sleep does he get? 

I ask because naps are the first tool I reach for when I'm trying to troubleshoot Basil's behavior.

Blinds down, "alexa play calm music", all toys and chewie things out of sight like on a counter-top, lights off, and try your best to be boring.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I truly feel for you. Bobby was incredibly mouthy for a long time. I would even cry sometimes because I didn’t know what to do. I should have joined this forum earlier.😉
He is a little over two years old and every once in awhile he still will forget himself when he gets excited but will immediately stop with a reminder. There are lots of good ideas and responses given so I will try not to repeat but I have a few thoughts I’d like to share to add to the great advice given. 

Hand feeding is a good training for younger pups but for an older pup who is so bitey I think it would be helpful. We would put kibble in our hand and Bobby would get to eat it only when he was gentle. He learned the word, “Gentle” and “No Bite,” with this exercise. The hand only opened when he looked at us and did not bite. This helped him learn to have a soft gentle mouth and self control. 

We actually trained Bobby to use his mouth for jobs. He loves to “help” carry things such as his grooming bag, cardboard boxes for recycling and anything else I can think of. I carry one end and he “carries” the other. It is a highlight for him. He carries my sock ball every morning for me. It is a great obedience exercise for him...carry, sit...drop it. 
He likes to hold my hand with his mouth when we walk to the house and he is very gentle about it. He can only do this when we invite him to and it’s not a regular thing but it’s very special. Poodles are retrievers so I think it’s especially important for a mouthy poodle to be able to appropriately use that mouth. I’m not a poodle expert but Bobby is a happy boy when he gets to use his mouth including fun games of “Fetch.” 

Having alternatives everywhere helps a lot. 
Have toys easily available that you can shove in pups mouth. You want to teach what is appropriate to bite. When Bobby gets excited he has learned to get a toy...he loves the soft rubber squeezy type. It’s super funny when we come home as he always, always goes and grabs his Kong and carries it outside. It’s quite the ritual. Keeps that poodle mouth happy. 

Not sure if you have the flying leap and bite thing going but that behavior we ignored. We would just turn around and become a statue. 
Being a statue does help a lot and maybe not the first time but it didn’t take long and Bobby learned that the biting and leaping gets no attention.

You asked for hope....There most absolutely is hope! I thought Bobby would be bitey forever! I never experienced such a mouthy dog but amazingly, as he matured, things got better and better. They do grow up and they do learn. It doesn’t happen over night and every dog is different with their timetables. I have read that some gun dogs/retriever dogs, which poodles are, sometimes take longer. I was very encouraged by this as I thought there was something wrong when we were going through the rough times. Celebrate progress. Don’t give up. We would have set backs but we just kept working on it. He still needs to use his mouth a lot so we make sure he gets to do that appropriately but he now has self control and knows what he can and can’t use his mouth for. 

Also, Bobby’s biting was definitely worse when he was tired or under exercised. Make sure puppy is getting daily, age appropriate exercise and plenty of rest. I’m sure there will be more ideas given and of course good training books are helpful too. Hang in there! Keep training. It does get better! 😊


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## Brownie_mom (Dec 1, 2020)

I feel your pain! Ruger is 4 moth old and has very similar issues with mouthing. I also screamed HELP!!! on this forum and got really good advises that I am trying my best to implement. And yes, there is a HOPE!

Collar - I tried the techniques of showing him a treat, asking him to seat, taking the color in my hand and then giving him the treat. Put the leash on while he is eating the treat (it does not have to be large, just something that he likes). Worked like a charm. Happy to say - no more issues with the leash on/off. He knows it is a god thing, so now I am not always bribe him with the treat, just in occasion. It took about a day to teach him.

Mouthing you harder then you like - I massage his tong. It is actually easier then it sounds. Just make sure your nails are cut really short. He gets a look on his face like 'what is going on, this is not what I like' and stops. 

He gets a bit crazy at the evening time and biting gets out of control, so he goes to his play pen. 

Fetch games really help. We are still working on release of the toy when he brings it back, but at list he releases a lot of energy.

Baby steps, but each little achievement is so rewarding!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Ava. said:


> -Wants attention -- barks, jumps up, and grabs my wrist with his mouth continually - When he wants attention, and you do not have time to give it to him, put him in his crate, with a bone or a toy. Cover the crate, and walk away. Crate is calm, plus everything is easier without a puppy at your feet.
> 
> -We are in the car -- incessant nipping and biting at my arm for attention. I cannot drive unless he is buckled in the back. -This one is simple, your dog shouldn't be loose in the car, anyways. Just buckle him in every time you are in the car.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for this detailed answer! I will put this into practice. I do put him away immediately when he gets this way, and have been for nearly the entire time I've had him. Part of the issue is: when he realizes he is going to his "room" when I have to go run errands or whatever, he throws a fit because he doesn't want me to go. Once he's in there it's fine. But if he doesn't want to be left alone and I am guiding him to the room, that's when he starts.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I hope @Raindrops will chime in here, because she really talked me down when I felt like I couldn’t take another minute of Peggy’s mouthiness. She was very similar to your puppy, except for the grooming part, and I managed it by being a boring statue (including no eye contact) to defuse the situation, and then teaching alternate, acceptable behaviours (such as _consistently_ sticking a toy in her mouth, even when we didn’t see immediate results). I also eased up on things I was doing that were inadvertently antagonizing her, such as asking for prolonged sits before throwing her ball. Now she’d sit forever if I asked that of her, but it didn’t happen overnight.
> 
> So building on that example, the best advice someone gave me here was to throw the ball the _moment_ she sat. The results of this were almost instantaneous. She stopped going over threshold every single time we played or trained. I also kept training sessions extremely short. Like 30 seconds. Now she’d be happy if we worked for an hour. But we had to work up to that.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much for your reply! I do think short training sessions are great to start. If we are in "training mode" he is extremely obedient. Making that quick switch from snappy mode to training mode is going to take some work!

The grooming, I'm glad you mentioned this. His breeder (hours away) is an amazing groomer (did not pluck ears), and was started basically as soon as he entered this world. The first time I took him to a different groomer, I believe he was traumatized by ear plucking...and got double ear infections. After that, I request no ear plucking... but now he is very defensive. I hope that one experience can be unlearned... I feel so guilty for it!

The classes are based on positive reinforcement. I do agree that being loud or tugging his collar increases the excitement. I do the statue move mostly...but sometimes he continues to snap, so to protect myself I have to grab his collar sometimes.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Is there a time of day or pattern to when this happens? What's your schedule?
> 
> Have you taught calm? Engage disengage games/self control games (play play play, ask for a brief sit, play play play play, ending the game if the dog is too wound up to sit?) Relax on a mat? Down stays?
> 
> ...


It's not a time of day, but the pattern is: me turning away from him to do almost anything. Unless he is very tired and wants to take a nap, he wants my attention. A blessing and a curse. I wanted a snuggly velcro pup and most of the time, he is that. I work from home (and have no friends in my new city, lol) so I do spend A LOT of time with him, but am also sure to put him away for a couple hours at a time and leave the house. He's fine at home by himself. I have cameras to check in on him and he mostly just sleeps when I'm gone.

When I say not wanting to do things, I mean leading him to go to his room where he stays when I have to leave. Brushing/drying/grooming him. He doesn't mind me grabbing his collar to pull him toward me or along with me, unless he senses I am going to be leaving him shortly after. I try to use treats to guide him so he goes on his own, but he stays outside of the room and jumps back and barks for a long while. Eventually he will follow the treat, but it's a whole ordeal.

I will try to learn/teach "calm". I've looked up a few self control games we do. I guess I just have to continue them!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> When I hear you talk about _a mood, _I think about _ooh, you need a nap._ How much sleep does he get?
> 
> I ask because naps are the first tool I reach for when I'm trying to troubleshoot Basil's behavior.
> 
> Blinds down, "alexa play calm music", all toys and chewie things out of sight like on a counter-top, lights off, and try your best to be boring.


Yes, that's "a mood". He gets plenty of sleep, I think. I do my best to balance sleep and adequate activity. Even when it's zero degrees outside... 😅


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Spottytoes said:


> I truly feel for you. Bobby was incredibly mouthy for a long time. I would even cry sometimes because I didn’t know what to do. I should have joined this forum earlier.😉
> He is a little over two years old and every once in awhile he still will forget himself when he gets excited but will immediately stop with a reminder. There are lots of good ideas and responses given so I will try not to repeat but I have a few thoughts I’d like to share to add to the great advice given.
> 
> Hand feeding is a good training for younger pups but for an older pup who is so bitey I think it would be helpful. We would put kibble in our hand and Bobby would get to eat it only when he was gentle. He learned the word, “Gentle” and “No Bite,” with this exercise. The hand only opened when he looked at us and did not bite. This helped him learn to have a soft gentle mouth and self control.
> ...


Thank you so much! It sounds like Bobby was very similar to Midas. I do implement the "statue" but sometimes he won't stop and I have to grab him or my clothes will be shredded. He does not hold on to my body but will ensure he gets a mouthful of skin and let up. Definitely play-type bites, but no such thing is acceptable in my house! He does looove fetch and brings me all of his toys one by one every morning and night. I will definitely use some of your mouth game ideas!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Brownie_mom said:


> I feel your pain! Ruger is 4 moth old and has very similar issues with mouthing. I also screamed HELP!!! on this forum and got really good advises that I am trying my best to implement. And yes, there is a HOPE!
> 
> Collar - I tried the techniques of showing him a treat, asking him to seat, taking the color in my hand and then giving him the treat. Put the leash on while he is eating the treat (it does not have to be large, just something that he likes). Worked like a charm. Happy to say - no more issues with the leash on/off. He knows it is a god thing, so now I am not always bribe him with the treat, just in occasion. It took about a day to teach him.
> 
> ...


Thanks! 

I just started doing this collar exercise. I hope it works!

Haha - I will try that. I sometimes put the sides of his mouth between his teeth, which kind of works, but doesn't deter him for long.

We definitely play fetch. We are also working on "drop it". He gets so excited that sometimes he nips at my hand when I go to reach for the ball to throw it again.


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

I have a 6 month old mini who also goes after my clothes especially when I’m getting dressed. Now I put him in a “down stay“ when I’m dressing and we are both happy. He gets a treat and I can dress without him going after my clothes. I also found that commands like “off” and “leave it” work better if he knows I have treats!

Regarding grooming, I take my boy every 3 weeks and I told the groomer that I have very low expectations. If she can’t do something because he’s acting up, no worries - we’ll be back in 3 weeks. I just want to keep everything positive until he gets used to grooming. Once he gets used to behaving properly during grooming, we’ll start to go less often.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

For mout


riseandshine said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I just started doing this collar exercise. I hope it works!
> 
> ...


I really do second Basil's recommendation of a nap. My poodle took until 1 year plus before she was able to regulate rest on her own. She got bitey and lost self control when tired. 

Also, for when you leave - look into "crate games" to teach willing acceptance and self control. There are a bunch of YouTube videos showing how to do it. You can use the same games for willingness to go into any space - I did crate games with my dog going into our bathroom!

For nipping during fetch - I had a lot of issues with that at 6-8 months ish. Annie would ramp herself up and lose all control of her teeth and cHOMP. Ow! Not acceptable. With fetch it escalated to a bruise on my upper arm during fetch. After that, I cracked down, and was never bruised again. I didn't ever physically punish her (which is attention, anyways so probably wouldn't work). But I did work hard to watch her energy level and stop things when I saw that gleam in her eye. 

First - think about training mutually incompatible behaviours. If the dog is doing x, he can't do y. For biting - I tend to use sitting. Dog can't leap and nip me if dog is sitting. 

I solved the issues with fetch by requiring my dog to sit while the ball was in my hand. Not sitting? No throwing the ball. Not sitting? I won't pick up the ball. Won't sit? Ok, game over. Sometimes it seems silly when they are learning these new games. Bend over. Butt pops up. Stand back up, ask for sit. Bend over, touch ball. Butt pops up. Release ball, ask for sit. Try again... You want to throw really fast the moment the dog is sitting nicely while you have the ball in your hand for the first while to reward the nice sit, then, after that's reliable you can slowly work on duration. 

I also cut down the length of the sessions. You can watch the dog getting more and more amped up as you play - so stop before they lose self control. Three 2 min play sessions with no nipping are way better than one ten minute session that escalates to nipping. With me watching her energy level, it sometimes meant we stopped after throwing the ball 3 times, but, over time, those sessions could get longer. 

In the house, I also continued just walking away and closing the door, leaving her alone if she nipped. Nipping = I want attention, and I wanted to make sure that wasn't a successful strategy. I am personally incapable of being a statue while being mauled - I yelp, fling my hands up, get mad, etc. Going into the bathroom and having 30s to a couple minute of cooldown time helped a lot. Helped me be rational, and was a big punishment for my very human attention focused dog, and gave her a chance to cool down. Starts nipping again? Go back to the bathroom. 

For putting on the leash - ask for a sit stay. If he goes to nip, turn around, walk away, ask for a sit again. Still no? Leave the room, no walk, try again in a few minutes. I started this when my dog was a young puppy, because I hate chasing dogs around trying to get a leash on. If they want a walk, they work for it. 

Anyway - hope that helps. I do know how frustrating this is!


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## eeeeeek (Dec 13, 2020)

Everyone gave great advice, so I can only tell you my experience with this. My pup would get really bitey (and still does) when she is over-excited or cranky and sleepy. I either stand still and be a statue or I will walk away or put her in her crate. It's really annoying and frustrating - those teeth are razor sharp! Remember: this too shall pass!


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Spottytoes said:


> I truly feel for you. Bobby was incredibly mouthy for a long time. I would even cry sometimes because I didn’t know what to do. I should have joined this forum earlier.[emoji6]
> He is a little over two years old and every once in awhile he still will forget himself when he gets excited but will immediately stop with a reminder. There are lots of good ideas and responses given so I will try not to repeat but I have a few thoughts I’d like to share to add to the great advice given.
> 
> Hand feeding is a good training for younger pups but for an older pup who is so bitey I think it would be helpful. We would put kibble in our hand and Bobby would get to eat it only when he was gentle. He learned the word, “Gentle” and “No Bite,” with this exercise. The hand only opened when he looked at us and did not bite. This helped him learn to have a soft gentle mouth and self control.
> ...


You have some good suggestions here. Charlie (age 3) gets nippy when he is really excited and off leash, has torn a few jacket sleeves with those serrated teeth! The Statue with back turned seems to work better than yelling and slapping. 

Sent from my SM-G973W using Tapatalk


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

You've gotten lots of good advice already. I want to add in the suggestion that you consider working on "cooperative care" with your pup. A few minutes a day will not only help him be more comfortable when you handle him but will also make visits to the vet and groomer much more pleasant. You might also want to join Fear Free Happy Homes (it's free). They have lots of good tips and tricks for everything from nail trims to separation anxiety to enrichment.

I am a bit of a fanatic about securing pets in the car, so I have to chime in to say I agree 1,000% that he should always be in a crate or seat belt when in the car, preferably a crash-tested crate or seat belt.

Hang in there! It absolutely does get better. When we got our puppy, he was six months old and was a little shark. Despite my best efforts at redirection to appropriate objects to chew, plenty of nap time (for him ) and sometimes briefly leaving the room myself, there was no way for me to avoid those little teeth 100% of the time, and my arms showed it. Now that he's ten months old, it simply isn't an issue any more. He's much less bitey, and when he is, he's easy to redirect to one of his favorite chew toys.

Wishing you the best.


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## HannahMarieJ (Jun 23, 2020)

This is such a helpful thread for my almost 6 month spoo! I’m starting to see some of this behavior emerge, even just in the last week. Specifically, Juniper’s started to go over threshold playing fetch in the backyard, which often dissolves into jumping/nipping. @PeggyTheParti, I really appreciate your advice to throw the ball the instant their butt hits the ground. I had been trying to get her to sit for a few seconds and sometimes even lay down (_gasp_) and it’s just been too much for her. She’s been breaking sit, which she knows well, and jumping/nipping or running away. I’ll start working on throwing as soon as she sits and limiting these play sessions to just a few minutes. 

We also had a situation with her tonight where she just wanted to attack my husband with love, kisses, pounces, and teeth. Her tail was wagging like crazy and she’s obviously trying to show affection. But when 30+ lbs of excited, sharp puppy wants to be on top of you, it isn’t exactly pleasant. After a few minutes of HOW DO WE STOP THIS, we finally got our wits back and offered her a brand new bully stick. Suddenly we had a calm puppy for the rest of the evening, content to chew her little heart out. She’s firmly in the teething stage, so I’m sure the chew helped massage her sore gums.

Sometimes it’s just a matter of making sure you go through all the things they could possibly need - sleep, food, training, play, chew, potty. It’s amazing how easy it is to forget one of those things and then you feel like a dolt when you figure out which one is causing the bad behavior!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Pat Mc said:


> Now that he's ten months old, it simply isn't an issue any more. He's much less bitey, and when he is, he's easy to redirect to one of his favorite chew toys.


It’s pretty remarkable how it seems to just happen overnight. I know that’s not really the case, but there was definitely a moment when I said, “Huh. Peggy doesn’t tackle me anymore. When did that happen??”

Then, of course, she briefly regressed and I feared I’d jinxed it! Thankfully, it was just a blip.

At 20 months, she will still sometimes pogo a bit, but at least she keeps her teeth to herself and her toys.


HannahMarieJ said:


> This is such a helpful thread for my almost 6 month spoo! I’m starting to see some of this behavior emerge, even just in the last week. Specifically, Juniper’s started to go over threshold playing fetch in the backyard, which often dissolves into jumping/nipping. @PeggyTheParti, I really appreciate your advice to throw the ball the instant their butt hits the ground. I had been trying to get her to sit for a few seconds and sometimes even lay down (_gasp_) and it’s just been too much for her. She’s been breaking sit, which she knows well, and jumping/nipping or running away. I’ll start working on throwing as soon as she sits and limiting these play sessions to just a few minutes.
> 
> We also had a situation with her tonight where she just wanted to attack my husband with love, kisses, pounces, and teeth. Her tail was wagging like crazy and she’s obviously trying to show affection. But when 30+ lbs of excited, sharp puppy wants to be on top of you, it isn’t exactly pleasant. After a few minutes of HOW DO WE STOP THIS, we finally got our wits back and offered her a brand new bully stick. Suddenly we had a calm puppy for the rest of the evening, content to chew her little heart out. She’s firmly in the teething stage, so I’m sure the chew helped massage her sore gums.
> 
> Sometimes it’s just a matter of making sure you go through all the things they could possibly need - sleep, food, training, play, chew, potty. It’s amazing how easy it is to forget one of those things and then you feel like a dolt when you figure out which one is causing the bad behavior!


I try to compare it to a toddler. If a toddler successfully scoops all her peas into her mouth, I’m going to cheer her on and let her toddle off to play, not demand that she sit still for another seven courses. That’s just setting her up for failure rather than reinforcing her success. 

It’s funny, because obviously letting a toddler be a toddler doesn’t mean they’ll never be able to sit through a formal dinner. But we tend to expect so much of puppies. I think that’s actually where I got a little tripped up myself. Like, “If I don’t teach Peggy impulse control NOW, how will she ever learn??” But thanks to some excellent Poodle Forum advice, I realized that baby steps are an essential part of impulse training.

P.S. The wild “attack” you described made me giggle, as I vividly recall puppy Peggy launching herself at my head and catching a tooth on my _nostril_. I don’t know which one of us was more shocked! And oh boy did it ever hurt. Definitely something I can laugh about now, but at the time I felt massively overwhelmed by how quickly she would get over-excited.


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## HannahMarieJ (Jun 23, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> at the time I felt massively overwhelmed by how quickly she would get over-excited.


Yes! That’s what happened tonight. Juniper went from playing nicely by herself one minute to trying to fit my husband’s whole head in her mouth the next. Equal parts hilarious and frustrating. 😂


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## mashaphan (Sep 4, 2014)

Once again, my refrain "Poodle Puppyhood is not for the faint of heart"  All great advice, and be patient,calm and consistent. Be sure your groomer is poodle savvy-i had to change because the "relative of a good friend" groomer wanted me to sedate Otter,but the only problem the longtime poodle owner/master groomer had was that Otter had never been exposed to a forced air dryer.At 4 yrs, Otter is still a little mouthy, but it does not bother me, as that is common in retriever breeds-he likes to"'hold my hand"


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

Remy is almost 6 months and I've had him for 3 months. I actually have a scar from the mouthiness. As I did with my last poodle, when he is nippy, I say firmly "No bite" and I put a toy in his mouth. I also use the statue/stare at the ceiling method. Just yesterday, he started to nip and when I said "no bite" he ran and got a toy to keep his mouth occupied. We are still in early days, but it does get better. Just be consistent and patient. It really does get better.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Bigbark said:


> Just yesterday, he started to nip and when I said "no bite" he ran and got a toy to keep his mouth occupied. We are still in early days, but it does get better. Just be consistent and patient. It really does get better.


This x a million. This is what you want to see. So many people focus on the “NO!” and don’t bother teaching a yes/alternative behaviour. Poodles looooove yeses.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Hi everyone, I updated the post with how we are doing. Thank you all for your suggestions as we continue to work toward becoming a well-behaved dog! I also hired a new trainer to come to my home and work individually with Midas, we start this week.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> *Wants attention*: still jumps/nips/bites but does KNOW how to stop. He chooses not to most of the time.
> 
> _He’s doing what’s most reinforcing to him. That’s the choice he’s making. He’s not choosing to be bad or to do the wrong thing. So figure out what he’s getting out of it and make the alternative, preferred behaviour, more desirable. Easier said than done, I know. But it’s the simple truth. Teach him how to get your attention in a desirable way, and then—for now and for the immediate future, not necessarily forever—make that attention instantaneous. He will learn that’s the most efficient way to get what he wants. _
> 
> ...


I’ve added my notes above. Nothing you’ve mentioned sounds abnormal for a smart, boisterous 10-month-old who’s still learning how to communicate with humans. Of course, none of us can see him in action, so I could be missing something of concern. But that’s where your trainer comes in.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’ve added my notes above. Nothing you’ve mentioned sounds abnormal for a smart, boisterous 10-month-old who’s still learning how to communicate with humans. Of course, none of us can see him in action, so I could be missing something of concern. But that’s where your trainer comes in.


I just want to thank you so much for taking the time and care to reply with such care and great advice. I don't know how to add notes so I'll just reply here.

CAR: I have started to do as you say and not give "big" rewards in the car. Yesterday the drive thru barista offered a milkbone and I grabbed it saying he has to wait until he is more calm. I find that if I take it and put it where he can see it but out of reach, he stares intently at it until we get home. Then reward for good behavior. I give small bit treats consistently for sitting quietly and noticing people without barking. We went to a drive thru oil change after doing it once with pretty good behavior. BIG mistake. He completely lost it and lunged at me trying to bite hard the entire time. Never again (until consistent manners).

HARNESS: Good to know. I do not like using collars because I don't want to have an accidental neck injury from pulling over time. Maybe once he is a consistent calm walker. Harness really isn't an option for him.

GROOMING: I had been taking him to a professional grooming salon, which has been around for 30+ years. Unfortunately, this last time, they nicked him, didn't tell me, and it became a full blown infection. Currently on antibiotics. I'm switching - I also wasn't super impressed with their poodle skills, even to just get a flat clip.

LUNGING BITE: I will continue to do this. I have a video that I didn't even mean to capture that I took a couple months ago. This is a very MILD version of the jump/bite. The rip on my sweatshirt is from him. I film advertisements and this product was a waste bag - it's actually just leaves in that bag to mimic the look of waste - but anyway, that's why the camera was rolling. I do stay more still now, give an "off" immediately, and if that does not work, I exit. But I will implement as you say. Interested to know your thoughts on this video. I sent it to a popular fear-free trainer part of a virtual consult and she could not figure it out. And will also take an updated video if I can... now that this has become the official "HELP MY DOG BITES AND JUMPS" thread🙃

VIDEO HERE: imgur.com/a/IqdPO8B


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Look how quickly he sat when asked! I’m impressed. 

But I can see why this would be exhausting for you. It looks to me—keeping in mind I am NOT a trainer—that he’s playing a game that only he knows the rules to. Maybe it’s something he learned as a puppy. The human goes this way, the human goes that way, the treat stays tantalizingly out of reach... What fun! It’s like a puzzle he has to solve.

You definitely don’t want to keep saying off while he’s behaving like that. At this point, he may actually think it’s a cue to continue the game.

I’m interested to hear what others think, especially our esteemed trainers @lily cd re and @Click-N-Treat.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Does he ever try to hump you? The way he’s gripping with his front legs does resemble humping posture, in which case he may be trying to cope with his over-excitement.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Does he ever try to hump you? The way he’s gripping with his front legs does resemble humping posture, in which case he may be trying to cope with his over-excitement.


He does not try to hump me. He has tried to hump a soft bed, but when he outgrew it I opted for the cot type, which he likes much more and does not hump.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The video doesn't load for me. I am on a laptop not a phone and I guess imjur needs an app I don't have...


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I’m curious why you don’t just go to “sit” if you know he will listen to that and stop the behavior? I would stop with “off” completely because it’s obviously not effective and could actually be cueing him to continue like PTP said. And it does look like humping posturing - I thought that at also.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> The video doesn't load for me. I am on a laptop not a phone and I guess imjur needs an app I don't have...


No app needed. Should bring you straight to video. Thanks for taking the time to check it out. You can try to copy and paste this link:


http://imgur.com/a/IqdPO8B


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Starla said:


> I’m curious why you don’t just go to “sit” if you know he will listen to that and stop the behavior? I would stop with “off” completely because it’s obviously not effective and could actually be cueing him to continue like PTP said. And it does look like humping posturing - I thought that at also.


I’ll try it and let you know how it goes. Later today most likely 🤪


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Watched the video. Your dog needs impulse control games. The first impulse control game I play is It's Yer Choice . Normally I have treats in my hands, but if I was training your dog, I'd want to protect my hands. Treat on the floor. When the dog goes for it, cover the treat with your foot. The dog can do all kinds of crazy stuff, but the only way to get the treat is to back off. The moment the dog backs off, remove your foot and let the dog have the treat.

Repeat it again. Treat on the floor, dive for it, cover it up. Keep repeating until you can put a treat on the floor and the dog ignores it. Then move this same game to your hands. Treats in your hands, close fists. Dog gets treats when the dog backs off. When the dog backs up, mark that good decision with the word, "YES!" and toss a treat for the dog to chase. Repeat.

The more you say, "OFF!" the more the dog assumes you are playing a game. The more you twist and turn, the more the dog thinks you're playing a game. If your dog jumps on you once, pick up the leash and quietly bring the dog to a place to calm down. I would have removed the dog at about 3 seconds into the video. 

In the video, the dog is going bananas. You reach in your pocket. The dog goes even more bananas. Then the dog sits.You give a treat. You're accidentally training your dog to go bananas first, then sit, then get a treat. Instead, don't reach for a treat until after the dog is sitting calmly. Hands out of your pockets until the dog is sitting. 

If you haven't already, find a training class. Your teacher can help you with this issue. It's not unusual. Just not a lot of fun.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Click nailed it. It's going to take a little time to train "It's your choice", but once you do you will be amazed at the change. You will be training your dog that when it calms down it will get a treat. Acting bananas gets nothing.

I'm glad she suggested starting with your foot and not your hands - puppies are trained using the hand. When you put that treat and cover it with your foot, your dog is going to go crazy going for that treat. Be sure you are well balanced so your dog can't push you over. Wear shoes, your dog might try pawing at your foot.

I've seen some people start to train this with hands and their dogs are biting (not to break skin, but to get at the food) and pawing persistently It's fun to watch because the dogs soon learn that working hard to try to get the treat gets them nothing..... as soon as they give up and move away from the treat is when their owner opens their hand and give them the treat. That's the start of the dog learning impulse control. I'm assuming your dog will try similar behavior with your foot in the beginning steps until he understands how the game works. 

My puppy knows "its your choice" - when he is very jumpy and he sit's but bounces back up into a stand, I hide my hands behind my back. He sits back down and I wait until he is settled before giving him a treat.... this is a more advanced version that you'll work towards. It's all part of asking for calm behavior before rewarding with play, praise or treats.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Watched the video. Your dog needs impulse control games. The first impulse control game I play is It's Yer Choice . Normally I have treats in my hands, but if I was training your dog, I'd want to protect my hands. Treat on the floor. When the dog goes for it, cover the treat with your foot. The dog can do all kinds of crazy stuff, but the only way to get the treat is to back off. The moment the dog backs off, remove your foot and let the dog have the treat.
> 
> Repeat it again. Treat on the floor, dive for it, cover it up. Keep repeating until you can put a treat on the floor and the dog ignores it. Then move this same game to your hands. Treats in your hands, close fists. Dog gets treats when the dog backs off. When the dog backs up, mark that good decision with the word, "YES!" and toss a treat for the dog to chase. Repeat.
> 
> ...


Excellent!! Thank you so much for analyzing the video and seeing the errors. I will implement the recommendations immediately.
He does know this game, and does it well when calm. He can also "leave it" very well. But he is definitely going BANANAS in the video, and that's a light version! Thank you, thank you, thank you for the critique. 

.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Skylar said:


> It's fun to watch because the dogs soon learn that working hard to try to get the treat gets them nothing..... as soon as they give up and move away from the treat is when their owner opens their hand and give them the treat. That's the start of the dog learning impulse control.


Yes, this! Also, when over-arousal is involved, I much prefer letting the dog figure it out to giving a cue.

Over-arousal was such a constant theme in my early days with Peggy, I quickly learned that even something as simple as saying “No!” injected extra energy into a situation that really demanded the exact opposite. You want to pull the plug on the moment and watch the energy just drain away...

It was with puppy Peggy that I discovered the power of avoiding eye contact, not by whipping my head or body around but by just completely disengaging, like a robot powering down. This was something I’d never had to do with previous dogs.

Honestly, it seemed overwhelming at the time, but, in retrospect, it was such a short period of time that required this. Then again, if I hadn’t figured it out, things would have undoubtedly escalated.

I was thinking today that training my clever, sensitive girl is very much like driving a sports car. She requires finesse and the _lightest_ touch. Turn the wheel too sharply and we’re both in the ditch. Tap the gas a little too hard and it’s 0-60 before I even know what’s happened.

But ohhhhh the joy of cruising smoothly together....


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Skylar said:


> Click nailed it. It's going to take a little time to train "It's your choice", but once you do you will be amazed at the change. You will be training your dog that when it calms down it will get a treat. Acting bananas gets nothing.
> 
> I'm glad she suggested starting with your foot and not your hands - puppies are trained using the hand. When you put that treat and cover it with your foot, your dog is going to go crazy going for that treat. Be sure you are well balanced so your dog can't push you over. Wear shoes, your dog might try pawing at your foot.
> 
> ...


Thank you, wonderful!
A lot of times my dog will not do a behavior until he sees a treat. Example, I say "down" - he stares at me - I bring out the treat - he "downs". I guess I just need to reverse that on my part.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yes, this! Also, when over-arousal is involved, I much prefer letting the dog figure it out to giving a cue.
> 
> Over-arousal was such a constant theme in my early days with Peggy, I quickly learned that even something as simple as saying “No!” injected extra energy into a situation that really demanded the exact opposite. You want to pull the plug on the moment and watch the energy just drain away...
> 
> ...


Yes, I cannot give ANY energy. I learned that VERY quickly. My previous dog, if I responded firmly, the behavior was done. If I tried that with Midas he would start doing back flips and standing on his front legs balancing on my head.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> Thank you, wonderful!
> A lot of times my dog will not do a behavior until he sees a treat. Example, I say "down" - he stares at me - I bring out the treat - he "downs". I guess I just need to reverse that on my part.


Yeah, that’s a bad habit, for sure, but such an easy one to fall into. Beyond the first few reps of a new behaviour, you don’t want treats to be lures aka bribes. You want them to be rewards and ideally slightly _unpredictable_ rewards. There should always be the slightest chance of a filet mignon jackpot.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click said everything I would pretty much have said. Your dog needs major impulse control training. You should stop allowing him to rehearse this wild behavior. The more he mugs you like that the more he will think he is allowed to do so. He needs to be made to understand that he can't continue to assault you. Don't wait him out!!!! Make him stop and do something static like a sit or a down and make him develop endurance for those stays.

At this point you need to be super persistent, patient and consistent with the training to modify the behaviors happening in the video. When you start teaching a new b ehavior from scratch it is going to take thousands of correct executions with different distractions in different locations and building duration. In this case you have to teach that the current behavior is unacceptable AND you have to teach new decent behaviors. It will take longer than you are likely to want to imagine, but you are going to be doing two things unlearning one thing and replacing it with something new. Think of it as trying to drive to a new town and you follow a map that doesn't tell you you can't get to that down on the road you are on. Once you realize your mistake you will be cursing all of the miles you have to backtrack over to reach your destination. You will get to where you want to be but it will take way longer than it needed to.

I realize that training wasn't your primary reason for capturing that video but when you go back to working on these things get anything you don't need for trqining off your body and out of your hands. I either have someone record for me or put a tablet on a tripod. I would also get the treats out of your pocket. Put the treats in your mouth.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> Yes, I cannot give ANY energy. I learned that VERY quickly. My previous dog, if I responded firmly, the behavior was done. If I tried that with Midas he would start doing back flips and standing on his front legs balancing on my head.


Yes!! For us it was demand barking and air snapping. Oh Lord. It was like having a 16-year-old daughter talking back to me (and then stealing and crashing the car).

No engagement is so effective for a dog that thrives on your attention.

I was thinking, too, about you leaving a treat in plain view in the car to hold Midas’s attention. On one hand, this could be good for building impulse control. But I don’t think his current behaviour indicates those techniques are working. I think he’s a very easily frustrated boy and you should consider going back to basics and working very slowly up from insta-rewards to building duration. With a good foundation, that duration can grow super fast, but you need that foundation.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> Click said everything I would pretty much have said. Your dog needs major impulse control training. You should stop allowing him to rehearse this wild behavior. The more he mugs you like that the more he will think he is allowed to do so. He needs to be made to understand that he can't continue to assault you. Don't wait him out!!!! Make him stop and do something static like a sit or a down and make him develop endurance for those stays.
> 
> At this point you need to be super persistent, patient and consistent with the training to modify the behaviors happening in the video. When you start teaching a new b ehavior from scratch it is going to take thousands of correct executions with different distractions in different locations and building duration. In this case you have to teach that the current behavior is unacceptable AND you have to teach new decent behaviors. It will take longer than you are likely to want to imagine, but you are going to be doing two things unlearning one thing and replacing it with something new. Think of it as trying to drive to a new town and you follow a map that doesn't tell you you can't get to that down on the road you are on. Once you realize your mistake you will be cursing all of the miles you have to backtrack over to reach your destination. You will get to where you want to be but it will take way longer than it needed to.
> 
> I realize that training wasn't your primary reason for capturing that video but when you go back to working on these things get anything you don't need for trqining off your body and out of your hands. I either have someone record for me or put a tablet on a tripod. I would also get the treats out of your pocket. Put the treats in your mouth.


Noted. I do regret the amount of time doing the wrong thing, but it wasn't for lack of trying. I've been searching out the correct answer for months. Consulted trainers, obedience classes, researching, testing what worked best I could. It may take a while, but he's stuck with me for life, so... at least it's progress in the right direction from here on out. I spend A LOT of time with my dog, so we will be working on it consistently and constantly!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yes!! For us it was demand barking and air snapping. Oh Lord. It was like having a 16-year-old daughter talking back to me (and then stealing and crashing the car).
> 
> No engagement is so effective for a dog that thrives on your attention.
> 
> I was thinking, too, about you leaving a treat in plain view in the car to hold Midas’s attention. On one hand, this could be good for building impulse control. But I don’t think his current behaviour indicates those techniques are working. I think he’s a very easily frustrated boy and you should consider going back to basics and working very slowly up from insta-rewards to building duration. With a good foundation, that duration can grow super fast, but you need that foundation.


Yeah, uh, barking is a whole 'nother thing I'm addressing. The lunging bite is first on the list. I'll make another thread for barking 😅 

And you nailed it - I always say "don't get frustrated..." when I see that look in his eye. Back to basics it is!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> Yeah, uh, barking is a whole 'nother thing I'm addressing. The lunging bite is first on the list. I'll make another thread for barking 😅
> 
> And you nailed it - I always say "don't get frustrated..." when I see that look in his eye. Back to basics it is!


I honestly think you’re gonna be amazed.  I’m pretty sure I shared Peggy’s impulse control story with you a while back, about how I learned to toss her toy the _moment_ her butt hit the ground instead of drawing out the moment. I thought I was doing the right thing for my easily frustrated girl, so this was a revelation for me. I realized I was basically doing the doggy equivalent of expecting a toddler to sit through a five-course meal, hands in her lap, perfect manners, and feeling exasperated when she wasn’t getting it. 

We were unstoppable after that breakthrough. Baby steps can go super fast!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

If you have to show your dog you have a cookie, then you get the behavior you want, that's a bribe not a reward. To get rid of bribes, and make the switch...

Start the ping pong game in your kitchen. Throw a treat left for the dog to chase, throw a treat right. Just ping pong the dog across the kitchen for a few reps. Then stop and wait for your dog to look at you as if to say, "What happened?" Mark the second your dog's eyes meet yours with a yes, and drop a treat directly in front of you. Go back to playing ping pong. Stop, wait for eye contact, treat in front of you, back to ping pong.

Next training session. Ping pong twice, eye contact, ping pong once, eye contact, ping pong three times, eye contact, ping pong once... 

Add down in the middle of ping pong. Ping pong, down, ping pong, down.

Add sit in the middle of ping pong. 

Add more eye contact...


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Watched the video. Your dog needs impulse control games. The first impulse control game I play is It's Yer Choice . Normally I have treats in my hands, but if I was training your dog, I'd want to protect my hands. Treat on the floor. When the dog goes for it, cover the treat with your foot. The dog can do all kinds of crazy stuff, but the only way to get the treat is to back off. The moment the dog backs off, remove your foot and let the dog have the treat.
> 
> Repeat it again. Treat on the floor, dive for it, cover it up. Keep repeating until you can put a treat on the floor and the dog ignores it. Then move this same game to your hands. Treats in your hands, close fists. Dog gets treats when the dog backs off. When the dog backs up, mark that good decision with the word, "YES!" and toss a treat for the dog to chase. Repeat.
> 
> ...


First attempt at this game. He knows to leave things when I drop them for the most part, but as you can see, he did jump and grab my hand and this tactic worked to get him off. Thank you!



http://imgur.com/a/2Z4EEid


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Click-N-Treat said:


> If you have to show your dog you have a cookie, then you get the behavior you want, that's a bribe not a reward. To get rid of bribes, and make the switch...
> 
> Start the ping pong game in your kitchen. Throw a treat left for the dog to chase, throw a treat right. Just ping pong the dog across the kitchen for a few reps. Then stop and wait for your dog to look at you as if to say, "What happened?" Mark the second your dog's eyes meet yours with a yes, and drop a treat directly in front of you. Go back to playing ping pong. Stop, wait for eye contact, treat in front of you, back to ping pong.
> 
> ...


Amazing! Sounds simple, yet complicated, lol. Will definitely implement. Thank you so much.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> First attempt at this game. He knows to leave things when I drop them for the most part, but as you can see, he did jump and grab my hand and this tactic worked to get him off. Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/a/2Z4EEid


I believe this is the key: “The moment the dog backs off, remove your foot and let the dog have the treat.”

And I don’t see that happening in your video. In fact, watching your video, I wasn’t really sure what the “rules” were, so I’m not surprised Midas was a little confused, too, and fell back into his old routine as a stress-buster.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. He is such a big floofy doll. I love him.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I believe this is the key: “The moment the dog backs off, remove your foot and let the dog have the treat.”
> 
> And I don’t see that happening in your video. In fact, watching your video, I wasn’t really sure what the “rules” were, so I’m not surprised Midas was a little confused, too, and fell back into his old routine as a stress-buster.


Argh, again we try. He leaves treats for the most part if I drop them because I had previously taught to do so, so there was no holding him back needed. But dropping a treat when he jumps up does work. But I don't want to train him that jumping up gets a treat.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Try that game with you sitting in a chair - less movement that way. I hold a treat in each hand, hands closed, but a treat under each foot would work too. Just mark with 'yes' -or whatever your marker is, and then move your foot away. I mention that because making sure to be careful to mark BEFORE rewarding not WHILE rewarding is something I always have to watch myself for, but is also a start at moving from a bribe to a reward. I suspect chasing the treat across the room is too much stimulation for his poor adolescent poodle brain to handle


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Dog jumps up, bites arm, you drop a treat. You successfully trained your dog to bite your arm. 

New rule. Dog bites arm, dog goes in crate.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> Argh, again we try. He leaves treats for the most part if I drop them because I had previously taught to do so, so there was no holding him back needed. But dropping a treat when he jumps up does work. But I don't want to train him that jumping up gets a treat.


No, you’re absolutely right. You want to teach him that _backing off _produces a treat (or a toy, or attention, or whatever is most reinforcing to him in that moment).

But what I saw in the video was Midas jumping up and a treat magically appearing. Oops! This is why I love our trainer so much. She saw me doing so many things like that when I would’ve sworn up and down that I was doing everything right. It’s very humbling and it’s amazing how fast progress picks up when you correct those little mistakes.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Try that game with you sitting in a chair - less movement that way. I hold a treat in each hand, hands closed, but a treat under each foot would work too. Just mark with 'yes' -or whatever your marker is, and then move your foot away. I mention that because making sure to be careful to mark BEFORE rewarding not WHILE rewarding is something I always have to watch myself for, but is also a start at moving from a bribe to a reward. I suspect chasing the treat across the room is too much stimulation for his poor adolescent poodle brain to handle


Great idea. Yes, anything involving running amplifies the excitement to where I just have to leave the room.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Dog jumps up, bites arm, you drop a treat. You successfully trained your dog to bite your arm.
> 
> New rule. Dog bites arm, dog goes in crate.


Exactly. Because of the level and frequency of bite right now, I honestly think that's the best option. So I can work on my proper cues and he has a clear consequence. Was concerned to do that because I see a lot of "don't crate for punishment."


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m also of the “no crate for punishment” camp, but I’d always defer to Click’s expertise. 

Your brain is probably scrambled eggs at the moment, so let me just say that 1) I am super impressed you’re receptive to all this advice and 2) I _just_ read this and it made me think of you asking Midas for a sit between backing off and getting his reward:

*Doing Too Much Can Harm Your Dog Training*
_We often tend to try and influence our dog’s behavior not by controlling the consequences of his actions.

A typical example is a dog who tends to rush out the door when going for a walk. We open the door and the dog starts pulling on leash to get out. Many owners respond to this by trying to hold the dog back and asking him to sit and stay. For the dog it is very hard to comprehend what is happening. In his mind his action of trying to run outside and the consequence of the open door are clear. The human telling him to sit and stay is just a background noise.

He does not want to defy you – he just does not see how the consequence you provide (giving a sit and stay command) is in any way tied to him wanting to rush out and the door being open._









Loose Leash Walking


Loose leash walking can be a challenge for many dogs. Our extensive guide explains step-by-step how to get your dog to walk politely and without pulling!




spiritdogtraining.com





I think once you adjust your rhythm a little, so it’s desired behaviour-reward rather than desired behaviour-desired behavior-maybe some random thing-reward, you’re going to see Midas really catching on. Think of it as he’s learning basic vocabulary before you can start teaching him to speak in sentences.

P.S. That site I linked is actually a fantastic resource. If you’ve never checked it out, I highly recommend!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m also of the “no crate for punishment” camp, but I’d always defer to Click’s expertise.
> 
> Your brain is probably scrambled eggs at the moment, so let me just say that 1) I am super impressed you’re receptive to all this advice and 2) I _just_ read this and it made me think of you asking Midas for a sit between backing off and getting his reward:
> 
> ...


Thank you. It is a lot of information but I'm very determined to get it right. I literally stay up until 2AM googling "how to train dog to not jump and bite". It's a situation I haven't dealt with in any of my former dogs so I am (was!) at a loss. I am extremely grateful for all the advice, time, and energy everyone has given me -- some random person on the internet. 

And yes, I am a little familiar with this site. Thank you for thinking of me and I will check it out! If you ever think of me again, please send it over😂 I am all ears! I cannot let this amazing dog down!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Something I saw in the video is that you pulled back when he snapped at your hand to get the treat. Totally expected; it's instinctive that you'd want to protect your hand. However, it increases the pain of his bite when he latches on (because you are pulling against his teeth) and it increases the chance you will drop the treat. If you can trust him not to break skin, I would hold the treat firmly in your hand and deliberately place it on his tongue. If you can't trust him because he's too revved up, toss the treat at his feet.

I taught my boy Galen to catch treats when he was in in his land shark phase. The game began when I would tell him to sit and then praise him. I would then step back. If he got up I told him no and put him back in his place. Once he was sitting again I praised him and tossed the treat at his mouth. He missed the first few times. I simply let him find the treat and then put him back in his sit. Eventually he got to where he can now catch the treat almost every time. The thing I like about this game is that it motivates him to move out of my space and show restraint. He knows the rule is that he needs to give me space and sit down before the treat comes flying.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Something I saw in the video is that you pulled back when he snapped at your hand to get the treat. Totally expected; it's instinctive that you'd want to protect your hand. However, it increases the pain of his bite when he latches on (because you are pulling against his teeth) and it increases the chance you will drop the treat. If you can trust him not to break skin, I would hold the treat firmly in your hand and deliberately place it on his tongue. If you can't trust him because he's too revved up, toss the treat at his feet.
> 
> I taught my boy Galen to catch treats when he was in in his land shark phase. The game began when I would tell him to sit and then praise him. I would then step back. If he got up I told him no and put him back in his place. Once he was sitting again I praised him and tossed the treat at his mouth. He missed the first few times. I simply let him find the treat and then put him back in his sit. Eventually he got to where he can now catch the treat almost every time. The thing I like about this game is that it motivates him to move out of my space and show restraint. He knows the rule is that he needs to give me space and sit down before the treat comes flying.


You saw correctly. I try to not pull back, because I know if I do, the harder bite begins...but it happens. He will not break the skin. Are you saying after he lets up to place on the tongue? Or during?

And I will be practicing more of the toss and catch. He's not the greatest at catching yet.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

riseandshine said:


> You saw correctly. I try to not pull back, because I know if I do, the harder bite begins...but it happens. He will not break the skin. Are you saying after he lets up to place on the tongue? Or during?
> 
> And I will be practicing more of the toss and catch. He's not the greatest at catching yet.


The timing can be tricky. My fingers are in his mouth, but he's not putting tooth pressure on them. I'm ok with him sucking on the fingers if I'm giving him a treat; just no toothiness.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Here's a quick video with Trixie, my mom's dog, to show how I play this game with a new dog. It was Trixie's 2nd time playing - she had terrible impulse control so this is a game I should work on more often.

I am sure the better trainers here would have some comments on things I could improve, but giving you an imperfect demo because you were brave enough to share videos. Apologies for the poor perspective, I had my phone between my knees.






Things you can't see because I am a poor camerawoman.

We did a round that I didn't manage to video before this one where she did much more licking/mouthing/sniffing my hands. I had my hands in fists at dog level for most of this, until I bring my hand up in view open partway through the video, from then on my hand is open to make it harder. If she comes for the treat, I snap my hand closed.

The first round was with a low value treat to make it easy for her, second round that I videoed was with her highest value treat to try and get her to show jumpy persistent behaviour for the video (she didn't).

I am trying to keep my hands as still as possible - working on calm. Looking away from my moving hands is way harder.
She is grumbling and growling at me at the beginning, impatient to start. If I took too long, she would start barking at me. 
I am giving rewards nearly instantaneously because Trixie has no patience. You can also see that I sometimes screw up and give the reward and the marker at the same time. If I had asked for more and longer eye contact, at this point, she would have started growling and barking at me in frustration, which is not what I want.

The 'good girl' near the end which was a comment and a treat for Annie, sprawled on the couch with me.

We stopped at the end because I ran out of treats but also because Trixie was getting more excited and I needed to end it before she learned that barking and growling while staring at me is how she gets treats. Short sessions are best. If I wanted to work on a bit more duration, I'd go back to a low value treat to help her have more patience.

Hope something in that ramble helps.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Here's a quick video with Trixie, my mom's dog, to show how I play this game with a new dog. It was Trixie's 2nd time playing - she had terrible impulse control so this is a game I should work on more often.
> 
> I am sure the better trainers here would have some comments on things I could improve, but giving you an imperfect demo because you were brave enough to share videos. Apologies for the poor perspective, I had my phone between my knees.
> 
> ...


Awesome! (I need to learn how to embed a video as you did.) I think the value of rewards will make a huge difference in playing this game with Midas. If he smells an egg, he completely loses it. With regular treats, he shows some interest but gets bored of the game. Time to level up to the egg. I also need to focus on eye contact, not just backing up. Thank you!!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Yup - goal is calm and eye contact. I don't really care where she is - just that she is still and giving me eye contact. It's a different game than the games for 'leave it'.

Do you have a medium value treat? Something below egg but above normal treats? Maybe chicken? I would try the medium value or low value to learn the game before ramping it up to the tough version. Trixie does have an advantage because when I feed her I ask for a sit and eye contact so it was a behaviour she knows to try offering. 

I used a Vimeo link. Just copied and pasted it in and the magic of Poodle forum software embedded it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

riseandshine said:


> I see a lot of "don't crate for punishment."


I don't think crating at that moment is intended as punishment in the strict sense. It's to give you both some time to restore calm, more a time out for you both.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

What is needed when the dog bites is a time out. With correct reading of the dog and timing being good it is not a punishment. You can use a crate, an expen, leaving him confined in a small safe room. They will remain separated for a super short amount of time. As soon as he bites and lunges again you confine him again. He will quickly learn that there won't be any cookies or further training games for that behavior he will work at not doing it anymore. You have to make sure your response (non-reward) happens 100% of the time since he will bring that behavior back into his active repertoire super fast.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I once saw a video on holding treats in your closed hand on your lap. The dog will likely paw and mouth to get them but do not allow it to happen, he will eventually back off and when he does open your hand reach into it and hand him a treat, if he grabs close your hand again not allowing it. He will again back off and will learn to take it gently from you.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Mufar42 said:


> I once saw a video on holding treats in your closed hand on your lap. The dog will likely paw and mouth to get them but do not allow it to happen, he will eventually back off and when he does open your hand reach into it and hand him a treat, if he grabs close your hand again not allowing it. He will again back off and will learn to take it gently from you.


I will continue to do this type of activity, for sure!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Update for those interested! We had our first in-home training session yesterday. The trainer was very knowledgable and was able to handle Midas, even though he did display the jump/bite behavior on her several times. She was extremely impressed with his obedience when not over-excited. He's a complete angel then. Again, it's not an aggressive behavior, but excited. She taught me to teach him how to "settle" in three different forms. Our homework for the week is to practice a reliable sit/down/settle/stay inside the home and on the back patio where people and dogs will walk by the yard throughout the day (to help with "calm" instead of unwanted barking).

I did want to ask everyone helping Midas and me work through the jump/bite behavior - what is your take on the 'hold the snout closed while saying "no bite"'? I see many mixed reviews on if that is ok. This trainer did it, and Midas did seem to take kindly to it, easily closing his mouth and calming down a bit. Other than that physical placement of human touching dog, the rest was positive reinforcement with treats, dog making all decisions. First session and first time trying this modification tactic, so results remain to be seen, but I am very hopeful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Given that he has been allowed (and in some ways encouraged through poor timing on treats) to be very rude and pushy I think it is really important to give him a clear sign that the jumping, humping, lunging and biting are totally not acceptable any longer is just fine. I hope you will make good progress with this trainer. Understand that some of this may take months to fix even though you may think it is progressing quickly Midas having understanding and having learned and fixed new behaviors will be slow since he has to unlearn the rude pushy stuff. and replace it with collected thoughtful behavior.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

Post updated with Midas' progress! A complete 180!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hooray!!!! Would love to hear a little about your process and what you think helped.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Hooray!!!! Would love to hear a little about your process and what you think helped.


Sure, a few things.
1. Creating positive enforcement history — example: Midas doesn’t enjoy going into “his room” because it’s usually when I’m going to leave him there when I go out. So I started calling him to the room throughout the day with a treat reward when I don’t plan on leaving. When we walk in the room anytime he gets a treat. Applying this consistently to anything he doesn’t enjoy doing.
2. If he mouths, grabbing his snout in my hands with a firm “no bite” has helped some.
3. The most effective behavior training tool of all though, (and many people will disagree with this one) — water squirt. I stealthy squirted him with water ONE time when he was acting completely insane in the car. I gave him a “quiet” cue, which he knows, but chose not to obey. In his tantrum, I squirted him without him seeing the bottle or where it came from and quickly hid it again. He has never repeated the unwanted public behavior again.

After seeing how Midas behaved in public once (we couldn’t even get out of the car because his barking and thrashing was so insane), the trainer I’m using showed me how to use the squirt as a tool. He responded to it with that one time. He’s not emotionally damaged and still loves water. He is not fearful in any way, and has actually built much more confidence, because now he goes up to people asking for pets, where as before he barked and jumped back in fear. The squirt bottle changed our lives, and he only needed one squirt to understand that he needed to modify that behavior. It literally happened overnight.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> The squirt bottle changed our lives, and he only needed one squirt to understand that he needed to modify that behavior.


That’s the key with applying positive punishment, I think. If they don’t figure it out right away, it’s too easy for it to create new unwanted issues, such as aggression.

If you only used the squirt bottle that one time, how did it translate to alleviating his fears around new people? I’m not clear on the connection. After that one squirt in the car, he suddenly stopped barking and jumping back in fear?

Peggy’s had some fear issues since day 1, so I’m always interested in hearing what’s worked for others.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

riseandshine said:


> 3. The most effective behavior training tool of all though, (and many people will disagree with this one) — water squirt. I stealthy squirted him with water ONE time when he was acting completely insane in the car. I gave him a “quiet” cue, which he knows, but chose not to obey. In his tantrum, I squirted him without him seeing the bottle or where it came from and quickly hid it again. He has never repeated the unwanted public behavior again.


If a dog really knows an order and has been adequately proofed there is no "choosing not to obey" ever. There may be a slow and unenthusiastic response, but not a failure to obey. As to squirting a poodle with water Lily always found it to be pretty funny and would try to catch water rather than being deterred from a naughty behavior, distracted sure, but no deterred. I tried to stop counter surfing from her. Nothing ever work for that and 11 years later I can say she took a bag with bread off the counter two days ago. The very first time I ever saw Javelin reach his snoot over the kitchen counter I winged an empty 20 soda bottle with pennies in it at him and bounced it off the top of his head. He has never been on the counter again (going on 5 years now). If one makes a plan to use a pusitive punishment (which the bottle with the pennies was) your timing has to be impeccable and the consequence has to really mean something to the dog about what they were just caught doing. Most people are crappy at the timing and either too soft with the correct. The consequence for most people who don't know how to give an effective positive punishment is they make their dog confused and/or aggressive while not doing anything to alter the dog's behavior in an effective way. P+ is one of the four quadrants in learning theory, but since most people are bad at it most people should rarely if ever use it.


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> That’s the key with applying positive punishment, I think. If they don’t figure it out right away, it’s too easy for it to create new unwanted issues, such as aggression.
> 
> If you only used the squirt bottle that one time, how did it translate to alleviating his fears around new people? I’m not clear on the connection. After that one squirt in the car, he suddenly stopped barking and jumping back in fear?
> 
> Peggy’s had some fear issues since day 1, so I’m always interested in hearing what’s worked for others.


I truly don’t understand how that one squirt made such a difference either. Something just clicked for him. I’m just as perplexed as you are. But very pleased. I’m constantly sending photos and videos to my trainer of him out and about like, “can you believe this?!” I’m actually sitting outside in my back yard right now and the next door neighbor has a yard guy doing yard work with a lawnmower. This used to send Midas into a barking, chasing frenzy. He’s currently sitting next to me on the deck observing.









I carried the bottle around in my bag out in public and in the car for a while after, assuming he would at some point need to be corrected again, but I never had the need to use it so now it’s left at home in a cabinet somewhere.
It’s only been about a month, so I may see the need to use it again at some point. We will see!


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## riseandshine (Dec 24, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> If a dog really knows an order and has been adequately proofed there is no "choosing not to obecy" ever. There may be a slow and unenthusiastice response, but now a failure to obey.


Ok, that makes sense. I'm not a training expert by any means. When he was barking at the door or a sound at home, and I said "quiet" he understood that. But when he was over threshold, nothing I said mattered.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

riseandshine said:


> I truly don’t understand how that one squirt made such a difference either. Something just clicked for him. I’m just as perplexed as you are. But very pleased. I’m constantly sending photos and videos to my trainer of him out and about like, “can you believe this?!” I’m actually sitting outside in my back yard right now and the next door neighbor has a yard guy doing yard work with a lawnmower. This used to send Midas into a barking, chasing frenzy. He’s currently sitting next to me on the deck observing.
> View attachment 478855
> 
> 
> ...


What a delightful photo! I’m so happy for you both.

I wonder if your increased confidence might have played a role. Our poodles are sensitive to signals we have _no_ idea we’re broadcasting. Maybe Midas feels better now knowing the humans have it all under control and he can relax.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

riseandshine said:


> Ok, that makes sense. I'm not a training expert by any means. When he was barking at the door or a sound at home, and I said "quiet" he understood that. But when he was over threshold, nothing I said mattered.


I wonder if you had the great fortune to catch him before he went over threshold, and the water distracted him into a "Hey, what, this is weird, where did this come from" thought loop long enough for the distraction to end.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

My usual correction for mouthing is to tap (not hit) the bridge of the nose and command "no bites!". I've never had to do it more than 3-4 times before the pup got the message.


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