# Labradoodle breeding



## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I would love to see Ruff in a typical Poodle trim like the Miami or the Scandinavian (or Euro T clip). I'm thinking he'd look even more poodley. 

I'd tell people that he's a poodle mix, with an emphasis on the poodle. Technically, that's what he is so you'd be stating the facts. Or just tell people that his Dad had an affair with a Poodle mix and Ruff was the result. 

How is everything in Christchurch these days? Still experiencing aftershocks or is it finally quieting down? I hope all is well with you and yours. Great picture! Your eldest looks like she's having a blast, as does Ruff.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I certainly wouldn't call him a poodle. That would be false and an insult to the breed.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

I understand that. 

But if one doesn't like the term 'labradoodle' then there are not many words left. I dislike standing there mumbling when people ask what he is! A messy mix is the real answer I suppose. But I love him, and I think he is wonderful, and I wouldn't swap him now for the purest bred poodle in the world. It is just the semantics that cause problems.


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I would love to see Ruff in a typical Poodle trim like the Miami or the Scandinavian (or Euro T clip). I'm thinking he'd look even more poodley.


I'm working on it!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

My vote is still for the "love child of a poodle and a poodle mix."  



> Posted by *Chocolate Millie*:
> I certainly wouldn't call him a poodle. That would be false and an insult to the breed.


First, let me say that I agree with your well-established stance on labradoodles and other poodle-designer breeds. I don't believe in messing up a perfectly good poodle, under _any _circumstances. I wouldn't buy a designer poodle mix, and I certainly don't condone any of these obnoxious "oodle" breeds. 

But IMHO, this was pretty harsh. Katie isn't trying to claim Ruff is a poodle and she gets the animosity towards her (Ruff's) breed. She's stated over and over that she loves and adores poodles but also labradors and other breeds. _She's certainly not out to insult our illustrious breed._ Ruff isn't a purebred but he's an adorable mutt and I think if anything, Katie is proud of his poodle parts.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

I think calling Ruff a poodle cross is perfectly fine. Or not purebred is very accurate. He's like an 8th lab? My poodles wouldn't be insulted in the least. That is such a fun pic. You should try agility when he's older !


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you for your support, Rowan, but please don't get in a row with your friends here on my behalf. I do know peoples stances on doodles, and I knew some people may be a little short. 

I asked the question because I do find it difficult to explain what he is without using the doodle word. Now i know that word to be much disliked, but there doesn't seem to be an alternative, as has just been clearly pointed out.

I would ask chocolatemille a question though. If circumstances brought a sad doodle to your door and you choose to rescue it.....what would you call it? The breed description i mean, not 'Fluffy' or whatever!


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

**

I'd call him 'Poodlelicious' xoxoxo


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Katie said:


> *Thank you for your support, Rowan, but please don't get in a row with your friends here on my behalf. I do know peoples stances on doodles, and I knew some people may be a little short. *
> 
> I asked the question because I do find it difficult to explain what he is without using the doodle word. Now i know that word to be much disliked, but there doesn't seem to be an alternative, as has just been clearly pointed out.
> 
> I would ask chocolatemille a question though. If circumstances brought a sad doodle to your door and you choose to rescue it.....what would you call it? The breed description i mean, not 'Fluffy' or whatever!


I have full confidence that Chocolate Millie won't take offense.  She is entitled to her opinion; I just thought it came across as a bit harsh. I DO realize that without the benefit of body language and voice inflection, we all come across "abrupt" or harsh/short on occasion, myself included. (And often without meaning to!)


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

He is a labradoodle. If you really don't like that word, you can call him a poodle mix. 

As long as you are happy with Ruff and that he is living happily with the family, I think you can simply introduce him as your PET


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Rowan said:


> First, let me say that I agree with your well-established stance on labradoodles and other poodle-designer breeds. I don't believe in messing up a perfectly good poodle, under _any _circumstances. I wouldn't buy a designer poodle mix, and I certainly don't condone any of these obnoxious "oodle" breeds.
> 
> But IMHO, this was pretty harsh. Katie isn't trying to claim Ruff is a poodle and she gets the animosity towards her (Ruff's) breed. She's stated over and over that she loves and adores poodles but also labradors and other breeds. _She's certainly not out to insult our illustrious breed._ Ruff isn't a purebred but he's an adorable mutt and I think if anything, Katie is proud of his poodle parts.


I think everyone read in between the lines a bit. I said that he is not a poodle and to call him one is an insult to the breed. I am being direct because I do not see the need to add fluff to my opinion.

I will explain why I think it is an insult to the breed. This is where everyone read in between the lines and assumed that I said that because I have "well-established stance on labradoodles". If someone tells me that they have a pug, or a lab, or a poodle, I assume that that dog is purebred. If someone says they have a pug mix, lab mix, poodle mix, etc., then I take that to mean that the dog is not purebred but probably has a good amount of that breed in it. However, it is insulting to the breed to refer to a mutt as a "poodle" because, quite honestly, the conformation of a labradoodle, no matter how much poodle that dog has in it, is simply not going to be correct. So outsiders will get an incorrect idea of what a poodle should look, act and move like. 

*Most* labradoodles are predominately poodles. This does not mean they should be called poodles. They are labradoodles.

This has nothing to do with my "stance" on labradoodles. Just as I would expect someone with a rott/lab mix to NOT call their dog a rott, but instead call it a rott/lab mix. For the same reason. A rott should look a certain way. So should a lab. A rott/lab mix, even if it is predominantly one of these breeds, will likely not be a very good representation of that breed.





Katie said:


> I understand that.
> 
> But if one doesn't like the term 'labradoodle' then there are not many words left. I dislike standing there mumbling when people ask what he is! A messy mix is the real answer I suppose. But I love him, and I think he is wonderful, and I wouldn't swap him now for the purest bred poodle in the world. It is just the semantics that cause problems.


I'm don't believe _term _ is what people dislike. It is the act of purposefully breeding a mutt that many people dislike. Call him whatever you want, but the truth is that he is in fact a labradoodle. It should not take a mess of words to say that.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Katie said:


> I would ask chocolatemille a question though. If circumstances brought a sad doodle to your door and you choose to rescue it.....what would you call it? The breed description i mean, not 'Fluffy' or whatever!


I would call the dog what it is. A labradoodle, goldendoodle, etc. If I didn't know what kind of "doodle" it was, I would call it a poodle mix.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think everyone read in between the lines a bit. I said that * he is not a poodle and to call him one is an insult to the breed. *I am being direct because I do not see the need to add fluff to my opinion.


Please know that under no circumstances would I expect anyone to add "fluff" to their opinions or responses. It just struck me as a bit harsh when I read your initial comment and took it at face value. I appreciate your taking the time to explain as I get where you're coming from. And, this slight revision makes your comment all the more palatable!  Much more so than Henry/Millie's dinner. :aetsch:


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I would say he was poodle with a dash of labrador. Wiith only one eighth lab, the poodle bit should come first. Labradoodle isn't a breed - not yet, anyway - and I think most people would assume a Labradoodle was around 50/50. But what really matters is that he is a good looking, intelligent, much loved dog.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Put him in a poodle clip (shaved feet/face/tail base) and no one will be able to tell the difference with the amount of poodle in there.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

I dislike the labradoodle moniker too! You harken back to the old days when you called your mixed breed a poodle cross. ...before the use of labradoodle came into existence.

I think poodle cross is the proper term. He is the outcome of two breeds that have been crossed. Poodle mix works just as well, as would Lab cross or Lab mix. And if you want to answer people's questions about what type of dog he is...tell them..large percent poodle, small percent lab.

That is a terrific pic of him with your daughter. He seems to be a member of your family, that you love and that is the most important thing.


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

Here's my opinions. Labradoodles are either a Poodle x or a Lab x what ever way you want to look at it. Before the 'fun' name of Doodles got used that's what they were called. SO for me- say i got a rescue "doodle' and i didn't want to promote doodles (because well i don't believe in cross breeding, nor do i believe in designer dogs) i would call my dog a Poodle x or a Lab x depending on what he had the most of- or waht he looked the most of. 

Just like i call my old boy an Aussie x. He's not a aussador. (which is apparently the new 'in name' for aussie x lab) but he's an aussie x . He looks more aussie then lab so i call him an aussie x . 

So i'd say call him a poodle x or a lab x depending on which suits your fancy. That way your totally honest on what your dog is and why he's great. but not promoting something your not wanting to (which is my take on your post)


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

Yes, poodle mix will do, but it has its snags.

Just to make things clear...I am not trying to pass him off as something he isn't, but he is much admired. He is very handsome (I may be a little biased here!) and he is also very good. I have worked very hard at training so far, and it is paying off, although it is obviously an ongoing process. I have been asked many times both what he is...and where can they get a dog like him!

Well, before I joined here I would cheerfully have said he was a labradoodle, and they were easy to get off the internet. But coming here has been an education. I have to say 'furthering the standard of the breed' was not a concept I had ever been aware of. Why should it have been? Let alone genetic testing, BYB,s puppy mills etc etc etc.....
I freely admit I am a very novice dog owner. Now I know what I now know, what should I do? Say he is a labradoodle (true, I know) but then Ruff is maybe rather too good an ambassador for the 'breed'...do we really want people to buy doodles?

Say he is a labradoodle but I wish i hadn't brought him? Not true. I would battle pterodactyls single-handed for my dog. I could never regret him, no matter what his breeding.

Say he is a poodle? Good for poodles, if they like Ruff, but also not true.

Say he is mostly poodle, or a poodle mix? After all I suspect it is the poodle part they are admiring! They always 'ask mixed with what'? I say 'Labrador' and they say "oh a labradoodle! I have always wanted one of those! Where did you get him? I want a dog just like him!"

I live on a beach, people walk their dogs here, we meet a lot of people, and as Ruff has good manners both with people and dogs, he gets admired (and he is handsome).

As poodle lovers and ambassadors for the breed, who abhor the breeding of doodles....what then would you have me say?


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Katie said:


> I understand that.
> 
> But if one doesn't like the term 'labradoodle' then there are not many words left. I dislike standing there mumbling when people ask what he is! A messy mix is the real answer I suppose. But I love him, and I think he is wonderful, and I wouldn't swap him now for the purest bred poodle in the world. It is just the semantics that cause problems.


I first had a lab - probably one one the smartest dogs I ever knew - now a 1 1/2 year old chocolate standard labradoodle and as of 3 days ago, a 1 year old chocolate standard poodle. I know behind the border collie, poodles are the smartest, but people who say labradoodles are less than, well - they haven't met my dog. My doodle is SO smart and beautiful. I can just talk to her and she does what I ask. Or when she comes in wet, she automatically sits in the mudroom and raises her paws to be wiped. All four of them. She is so smart. I say it is the poodle in her, but yet my lab was brilliant too. So, who knows?! Now I have my newest addition and she knows less than what my other dogs knew at this point. I blame it on her upbringing and know we will get there! She is amazing. All I am saying is - don't ever underestimate the labradoodle. Mine will prove you wrong!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Just curious - why do you care what other people think?! I am proud of my doodle and if people think less of me and/or her, there is something wrong with them. Now I have a purebred poodle - does that make her/me more likeable?! Just wondering why anyone would care? Does a purebred dog owner make a person better? I am thinking no. I have to ask because I LOVE and adore my 50/50 doodle and could care less what she is and what other people think of her.

I am not trying to come off snotty - but I belonged to a doodle forum before this and it is so funny to read comments that are anti-doodle here. I am just very open minded and it blows my mind that people can honestly think one breed of dog is superior over the rest. And I am saying this as a poodle lover before I ever had my own. After getting my doodle, I became obsessed with the poodle, because she is SO poodle-like. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be where I am today. KWIM?!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

As an owner of a "doodle" I'll give you my opinion of why were anti doodle here...this is a purebred forum (though I love Ruff) for people to share their experiences with this breed. We're Anti doodle because doodles are mutts sold solely for profit...these "breeders" take our much beloved breed and mash it with what ever they have available to them

I've said it before and I'll say it again I love my poodle mix  he is one of the most even tempered dogs I have ever met...but as a representation of that "breed"...well he sheds more hair than if I were to shave several grown bears and he drools constantly...i dunno if that were something I'd want to pay for (ours is a rescue)

Call ruff whatever you like, and evaluate the conversation...if you think you're talking to a semi intelligent person explain to them that hes a mix and that while you love ruff and he's a fantastic dog you don't condone the breeding of mixes...if they seem...not so with it...stick with poodle mix! Smile and walk away


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

I would simply say, "He's one of a kind."


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## Katie (Jul 7, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> I would simply say, "He's one of a kind."


Brilliant!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Agree - brilliant answer!

I think once you are in conversation - providing it is with someone of moderate intelligence - you can have the conversation about the pros and cons of mixed breeds, and how variable they can be. But let's face it, so can any breed of dog be variable, especially when it comes to temperament. Perhaps the really important conversation is about understanding the commitment needed before taking on a puppy, choosing a pup that will be happy in your household, and finding a breeder who is careful about the health, temperament and socialising of their litters, and who is happy for you to visit and meet the pups with their mother. Pedigree, mix or Heinz 57, that way there is a better chance of a happy future for both dog and owner.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> Just curious - why do you care what other people think?! I am proud of my doodle and if people think less of me and/or her, there is something wrong with them. Now I have a purebred poodle - does that make her/me more likeable?! Just wondering why anyone would care? Does a purebred dog owner make a person better? I am thinking no. I have to ask because I LOVE and adore my 50/50 doodle and could care less what she is and what other people think of her.
> 
> I am not trying to come off snotty - but I belonged to a doodle forum before this and it is so funny to read comments that are anti-doodle here. I am just very open minded *and it blows my mind that people can honestly think one breed of dog is superior over the rest. * And I am saying this as a poodle lover before I ever had my own. After getting my doodle, I became obsessed with the poodle, because she is SO poodle-like. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be where I am today. KWIM?!


I think it's a matter of Katie wanting people to accept it's the POODLE in Ruff, of which there is a _large _percent, that makes him special, and not the fact he's a "designer breed." He's not a typical labradoodle which is often 50/50 blend of both breeds, and certainly not a good representation of the Poodle as a breed when you consider the Poodle half isn't usually a good example of the breed. (Responsible Poodle breeders won't allow their dogs to be used in designer breeding programs. Period.) Many people have a negative bias towards poodles, believing them to be snappy, unruly, frou-frou dogs, and that's not the case. I continue to applaud Katie for her steps to correct this misconception.

As for your other comments, you must understand this *IS *a Poodle forum. While we're very accepting of people without Poodles, the primary objective of this forum is to promote the POODLE breed. Poodle purists, myself included, don't support the designer "oodle/poo" breeds, which do _nothing _to further the Poodle breed. I guess I'll have to blow your mind: *I DO believe Poodles are 'superior' to other breeds*. In fact, it bothers me that anyone would ruin a _perfectly _good Poodle by breeding it to a Lab, Pug, Cocker Spaniel, et al. I'm sure there are Lab, Pug, CS breeders who feel the same way in reverse.  My friend has a Pug and she believes Pugs are superior to other breeds. I'm sure if I ask the GSD owner down the street, he'd say that GSDs are hands-down the best. 

I'm not trying to be harsh or snotty either, but just saying that if you join a Poodle forum, expect very enthusiast and loyal Poodle owners, breeders, handlers, and fans. 

(I wouldn't dream of joining a Beagle forum and touting the qualities of a Poodle over Beagles.)


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Personally, I love the designer breeds. I don't see it as a disgrace to poodles because it's not a poodle, it's a labradoodle, golden doodle, whatever. If that's what people want, why can't they have them? I think the names are cute. Sure, they're still just poodle mixes, or mutts, if you will. But I think the names set apart the fact that they aren't just recklessly/accidentally bred alley dogs- that they wanted a labrador poodle mix, and that is what they got. I understand the issue with BYBs and marginalized health/temperament, etc. But speaking of the "breed" itself though, I see nothing wrong. 

Additionally, I have always called my shepherd mutt a german shepherd when people asked. (Of course, I had no idea there was such a debate about the issue). I just always assumed people could take one look at her purple spotted tongue and terrible coloring and know she's obviously a mix. It's not like I'm claiming or even remotely implying she has some fancy pedigree or anything like that. I guess it really depends who you're talking to about the subject. I wouldn't go bragging to a breeder that I have a german shepherd, but I'm also not going to make a big deal about her being a mix to someone at the dog park. If it's obviously just a companion pet and you're just talking to a passerby, who cares?

EDIT: I also just want to say that I love the poodle breed as it is. I think it is important to maintain a high quality standard and distinction for the breed, but not every poodle bred is going to be strutting itself down the show ring. Majority of people want their dogs as companions, and if they want a puggle or labradoodle, there's nothing wrong with that. There are still plenty of purebreed poodle breeders and enthusiasts. The poodle is here to stay. I'm partial to the purebreds myself, but I don't think there's any reason to hate on people who want specific mixes.


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> We're Anti doodle because doodles are mutts sold solely for profit...these "breeders" take our much beloved breed and mash it with what ever they have available to them


I would have to agree whole heartily on this!! I keep reading more and more of puppy mills and unwanted doodles because puppy mills are pretty much mass producing these designer breeds. People will do anything for money and it disgusts me!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I'm not trying to be harsh or snotty either, but just saying that if you join a Poodle forum, expect very enthusiast and loyal Poodle owners, breeders, handlers, and fans.


TOUCHE! :bashful:


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## Pup's mom (Mar 15, 2011)

What a fantastic photo ! I love it .. I think that is all Poodle, the love of jumping and the height of the jump .. Pup seemed to have springs in his legs 
I like Poodle Mix .. I too dislike the silliness of Doodle ... Poodles are dignified dogs, doodle just doesn't work for me ...
He is lovely ..


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

His mother is 1/4 Labrador. His father is technically a poodle. So he is 7/8 poodle and 1/8 Labrador.

He is a mutt, mongrel, or crossbreed. Obviously he is your dog and you presumably rescued/bought him because he appealed to you for whatever personal reasons you had. I don't mean any offence to you, but I would simply say he is your pet dog. Even though there is only 1/7 that is not poodle, miniature and standard crosses rarely look correct, and I don't think he does look very much like a poodle. His coat texture and the set of his tail would not be correct. He looks to me like a shaggy mongrel with light rotty markings.

There is no such thing as a 'labradoodle'. It is a marketing gimmick. A 'doodle' is a scribbly drawing. Please don't perpetuate this by using these terms. I would just call him what he is and enjoy him for the dog and the companion that he is.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Katie, your daughter is lovely and what a great picture seeing her so delighted playing with Ruff. IMHO, that kind of interaction and love are more important than whatever breed Ruff technically is.

I have to tell you something I find amusing yet sad - in my area, it's considered something of a status symbol to own a 'designer-breed' dog (which are almost entirely poodle crosses), and that's what irks me to no end. The doodles - and so many people who own them don't even know this term - are tacitly considered superior to the purebred poodle by the 'average' pet owner, which is a big part of the reason I am anti-doodle. There are other important reasons as well, and many people here have more than adequately expressed them; you already know what they are.

I want people to understand that poodles are an AMAZING breed AS IS, and don't need to be 'improved upon' with dubious crosses! I applaud you for trying to educate people and promote the poodle in Ruff. However, and I say this gently, only a purebred poodle can be a true representative of the breed.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

muffin said:


> Personally, I love the designer breeds. I don't see it as a disgrace to poodles because it's not a poodle, it's a labradoodle, golden doodle, whatever. If that's what people want, why can't they have them? I think the names are cute. Sure, they're still just poodle mixes, or mutts, if you will. But I think the names set apart the fact that they aren't just recklessly/accidentally bred alley dogs- that they wanted a labrador poodle mix, and that is what they got. I understand the issue with BYBs and marginalized health/temperament, etc. But speaking of the "breed" itself though, I see nothing wrong.


You fail to see the point that it's the BYBs and puppymillers breeding these "designer breeder" that are the entire problem--not the dogs themselves. If you were to do a little more research into what is going on with these designer dog breeders maybe you would start to see there is a big problem here--a problem that is not justified by "cute" names.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> You fail to see the point that it's the BYBs and puppymillers breeding these "designer breeder" that are the entire problem--not the dogs themselves. If you were to do a little more research into what is going on with these designer dog breeders maybe you would start to see there is a big problem here--a problem that is not justified by "cute" names.


I couldn't agree with you more! I am 100% against BYBs and puppy mills, they absolutely disgust me. These are rotten people overproducing litters kept in very poor conditions, etc. Like you said, it's not the dogs that are the problem, it's the breeders. This issue holds true for doodles and purebred dogs alike. What I am trying to say is that I am all for people owning and liking whatever breed or mix breed they want. I don't think it's any type of dishonor to the poodle breed, no one is trying to "perfect" upon the poodle, they just want a labradoodle. Nothing wrong with that in my book. Clearly, there is a right way and a wrong way to get those dogs, and I agree that a large percent of the doodles are bred the wrong way. But as for the "breed" itself, I just can't justify hating them. 

We are all on this forum because we love poodles just the way they are, but I find it disrespectful to bash on the people who would prefer or who for whatever other reason welcomed them into their family and hearts.


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## ekbaby734 (Jul 1, 2011)

Rowan said:


> My vote is still for the "love child of a poodle and a poodle mix."


LOL Rowan I always love your posts/ comments


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## ekbaby734 (Jul 1, 2011)

BTW Say whatever you feel comfterable with.. I call sooty a poodle all the time, but do I know 100% that hes full breed? No because he was a rescue.. Thats just how I feel..


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

muffin said:


> Personally, I love the designer breeds. I don't see it as a disgrace to poodles because it's not a poodle, it's a labradoodle, golden doodle, whatever. If that's what people want, why can't they have them? I think the names are cute. Sure, they're still just poodle mixes, or mutts, if you will. But I think the names set apart the fact that they aren't just recklessly/accidentally bred alley dogs- that they wanted a labrador poodle mix, and that is what they got. I understand the issue with BYBs and marginalized health/temperament, etc. But speaking of the "breed" itself though, I see nothing wrong.
> 
> Additionally, I have always called my shepherd mutt a german shepherd when people asked. (Of course, I had no idea there was such a debate about the issue). I just always assumed people could take one look at her purple spotted tongue and terrible coloring and know she's obviously a mix. It's not like I'm claiming or even remotely implying she has some fancy pedigree or anything like that. I guess it really depends who you're talking to about the subject. I wouldn't go bragging to a breeder that I have a german shepherd, but I'm also not going to make a big deal about her being a mix to someone at the dog park. If it's obviously just a companion pet and you're just talking to a passerby, who cares?
> 
> EDIT: I also just want to say that I love the poodle breed as it is. I think it is important to maintain a high quality standard and distinction for the breed, but not every poodle bred is going to be strutting itself down the show ring. Majority of people want their dogs as companions, and if they want a puggle or labradoodle, there's nothing wrong with that. There are still plenty of purebreed poodle breeders and enthusiasts. The poodle is here to stay. I'm partial to the purebreds myself, but I don't think there's any reason to hate on people who want specific mixes.


so do you think iuts cute that millions of dogs are dying in shelters because of these deisgner breeds? Do you think its cute when their dogs grow up with hip dispaysia/ any other common diseases in boith breeds? Is it cute when the family has to put down their dogs way to early because if the irresponsible breeding?
And before you go and try and say there are responsible breeders of these mutts think again, they are all byb or pupy mills no and ifs or buts.
Why do people need to buy these dogs when there are tons of purebreds to choose from?.

As for the op, its so nice to see someone actually learn from their mistakes! I would just call your dog a poodle x and if people are actually interested then say he's mixed with a lab but you don't like calling him that silly name and supporting the trend.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes, we are on this forum because we love poodles. And because we love poodles, we all have the responsibility to give back to the breed. I am not a breeder and have no intention of becoming one so to me, my way of giving back to the breed is to educate prospective puppy buyers, share training tips and experiences, etc. 

I am not a parent but I used to be a high school teacher. I love my students but does that mean I can let them do whatever they want because I should respect their wish of doing/liking/wanting whatever they like? And by advising them not to do certain things, does that make me a disrespectful person?

I am not trying to talk people into giving up their poodle mix. Any dogs can be good dogs. I am not here to bash or disrespect people and/or dogs here. I just want to say, as long as there's a demand for such "designer dogs", there will continue to be these "breeders". Only educated puppy buyers can put an end to their businesses.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

buttercup123 said:


> so do you think iuts cute that millions of dogs are dying in shelters because of these deisgner breeds? Do you think its cute when their dogs grow up with hip dispaysia/ any other common diseases in boith breeds? Is it cute when the family has to put down their dogs way to early because if the irresponsible breeding?
> And before you go and try and say there are responsible breeders of these mutts think again, they are all byb or pupy mills no and ifs or buts.
> Why do people need to buy these dogs when there are tons of purebreds to choose from?


Of course I don't think that's cute buttercup, don't be ridiculous! I do *not* support irresponsible breeding or pet ownership, which is what is causing the problems you are talking about. These mixed breeds _can_ be responsibly bred. Not everyone wants a purebred dog. People have been mixing breeds for personal reasons for hundreds of years. It's not about educating people about buying a purebred dog, it's about educating them to the ethical and humane treatment of all animals- and demanding quality bred dogs and mixes. You are twisting what I said about doodles and mixed breeds to puppy mills and BYBs. I don't think there is a single person on this forum that actually supports those.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

muffin said:


> Of course I don't think that's cute buttercup, don't be ridiculous! I do *not* support irresponsible breeding or pet ownership, which is what is causing the problems you are talking about. These mixed breeds _can_ be responsibly bred. Not everyone wants a purebred dog. People have been mixing breeds for personal reasons for hundreds of years. It's not about educating people about buying a purebred dog, *it's about educating them to the ethical and humane treatment of all animals- a**nd demanding quality bred dogs and mixes. *You are twisting what I said about doodles and mixed breeds to puppy mills and BYBs. I don't think there is a single person on this forum that actually supports those.


(Underlining and bolding is mine.)

Hi, *Muffin*. I'm going to try and elaborate on *Buttercup*'s post so please bear with me if I go astray. (It happens.  ) 

*I don't feel designer breeds can be responsibly bred because the mere act of creating a "designer" breed is irresponsible. Such breeders cater to the consumer's whim not to preserve or further the breeds in question, but for the money. *

You have to understand that _responsible _Poodle breeders will NOT allow their dogs to be used in these designer breed mixes. Therefore, you have _substandard _ poodles (note the lower case) being used to create -oodles (Labradoodles, Goldendoodles, etc.) and -poos (cockapoos, pugapoos--I may have made that one up). These dogs are poor representatives of the Poodle breed and the breeders, unethical (IMHO).

Responsible purebred dog breeders are all about maintaining the integrity of the breed they love and cherish, and not about catering to a crowd that wants a 'trendy' dog. Many people want a designer dog because they want something different/unique (and different isn't always better), or they're under the misconception that the purebred specimen is inferior in some way. Most don't have a clue as to the damage they're doing, but we've all seen it--the Labradoodle owner who sees your Poodles and frowns before saying, "I love Labs but I wanted a dog that didn't shed so I got a Labradoodle!" Or, "I wanted a Poodle because they don't shed but they're just too hyper/too prissy/too something, so I got this Goldendoodle." 

This is just my opinion and it's not directed at you, *Muffin*. To _rescue _a mix breed dog (aka: mutt) is admirable. To _buy _a designer dog is akin to putting money in a BYB or PM's pocket. You're supporting a practice that hurts both breeds, and leaves a worthy shelter dog to die because s/he doesn't carry a fancy label. 

And now I need to go and hug my POODLES!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

muffin said:


> These mixed breeds _can_ be responsibly bred. Not everyone wants a purebred dog.


No they cannot.

If someone wants a mixed breed they should save a life and adopt from a shelter or rescue. There are millions of mixed-breed dogs that desperately need homes. In a shelter you can find Maltese mixes, poodle mixes, terrier mixes, almost everything you can imagine. 

Why in the world would you pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a mixed-breed dog you could get from the shelter for a nominal fee? (Personal note: I think buyers of designer dogs believe they are getting something rare, unique and special, a dog far more important than a plain old purebred. I also think they buy into the hype that these breeders are spewing that their dogs are healthier than purebreds because they are crossbred, which is a complete crock).

The vast majority of people breeding designer mixes are not genetically health testing their breeding dogs and are not starting with dogs that are good representatives of their breed. I have to ask: What exactly are you paying for?

The only difference between the poodle mix at the shelter and the designer poodle mix is a trendy name and a big price tag. Oh, and when someone buys a Maltipoo from a pet store or BYB or online puppy mill, they are NOT adopting the exact same Maltese/poodle mix that is sitting in the shelter hoping to be adopted before it is euthanized.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

We are all preaching to the choir here- but people that want doodles aren't going to go to a shelter and adopt a dog- they want exactly the same dog that their friends, neighbors or family members have, and it's seeing these dogs and hearing their owners rave about them convinces them that it is the 'breed'' for them, and perfect as a family pet, esp good with children.
I live in a pretty upscale neighborhood with a lot of young families and the dog of choice around here is a 'doodle'! 
I can see why-they are soo cute as puppies and of course people fall in love with puppies, other families see them being walked, and so they want one too.
I am the only household with standard poodles, and have never seen another standard around town, and I don't live in a rural area; I think I see more standards in NYC than around here!
Actually, I do know someone who has two standards: our emergency veterinarian.
Clearly a very brilliant person


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

muffin said:


> I don't think it's any type of dishonor to the poodle breed, no one is trying to "perfect" upon the poodle, they just want a labradoodle. Nothing wrong with that in my book.


I respectfully disagree; they ARE trying to 'perfect' the poodle, at least according to what their distorted ideal of what a poodle should be. Ever read the inflated claims for their doodles on their web sites? According to some of these breeders, their dogs combine the "best" of both breeds, even though there is absolutely no way to guarantee that falsehood since crossing breeds can result in any willy nilly mish-mash of traits. 

But perhaps I'm giving these doodle breeders too much credit when I talk about their "breeding goals." LOL just contemplating that.... 

It's really all about money.

Please understand, "designer breed" dogs are a MARKETING GIMMICK. The dogs and these breeding operations are cleverly packaged to unsuspecting pet owners who know little to nothing about breed standards or that their new puppy comes from questionable genetic stock; or to would-be owners who think they have one-upped their neighbors with the cool new status symbol dog.

If no one was buying doodles, there would be few to no doodles being bred. That's why forums like this one are so important! in educating the average pet owner about doodles and their downside, because doodle breeders and pet stores certainly aren't going to do it!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

That was a terrific picture! The boy can jump. I bet he would be an awesome frisbee dog.

If you prefer to call him a doodle that is your choice. As a poodle person, I dislike the term because to me it feels like a poodle isn't good enough. A poodle mix is accurate (look at the poodle leap). You could just say he is a mix if you like, too. You get to choose. I have a nonstandard-sized standard, so who am I to act snobby?


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Researchers spent a lot of time and resources on developing genetic tests for various breeds. That's why we are now seeing fewer cases of PRA in poodles, for example. But mixing in another breed (or even a third breed back in one or two generations) makes the developed tests useless! Why would people want to take the risk of getting a dog that will have a certain type of disease that could have been prevented easily? Adding an additional variable to the equation is making things complicated.

I am not saying lab or golden retriever is not a good breed. I am not saying poodle is the ONLY breed. I have other breeds that I like too. You can tell from my handle I LOVE LOVE LOVE schnauzers but I have never, for once, thought about getting a schnoodle.

People think they are getting a "better" breed by getting a doodle. They think they are getting something unique because they are paying a premium. They think they are getting the best of the two breeds. In fact, there's a very good chance they are getting the worst of the two breeds.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> That was a terrific picture! The boy can jump. I bet he would be an awesome frisbee dog.
> 
> If you prefer to call him a doodle that is your choice. As a poodle person, I dislike the term because to me it feels like a poodle isn't good enough. A poodle mix is accurate (look at the poodle leap). You could just say he is a mix if you like, too. You get to choose. I have a nonstandard-sized standard, so who am I to act snobby?


You're nuts! :aetsch: Your girl is NOT an abnormal size! I know PLENTY of competitive AKC bitches who are only 21 inches tall...


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

muffin said:


> Personally, I love the designer breeds. I don't see it as a disgrace to poodles because it's not a poodle, it's a labradoodle, golden doodle, whatever. If that's what people want, why can't they have them? I think the names are cute. Sure, they're still just poodle mixes, or mutts, if you will. But I think the names set apart the fact that they aren't just recklessly/accidentally bred alley dogs- that they wanted a labrador poodle mix, and that is what they got. I understand the issue with BYBs and marginalized health/temperament, etc. But speaking of the "breed" itself though, I see nothing wrong.


I think that *education* is one of the best ways for this forum to "better" the breed. Of course I also think this forum is important for poodle people to share the joy or ask question about the poodle too!

Dear OP - when people ask you what your dog is one way to answer would be in an open-ended manner with "Why do you ask?" This way you can judge why they are asking.

You may be more comfortable answering poodle-cross, or labradoodle depending on their answer! VBG The fact that you are on a poodle forum asking this question makes me think you are trying to learn more about poodles and what makes them special. I think this is a good thing. 

Personally I would have fun with this question and find new ways to say mixed breed in different languages. VBG hybride with a french accent of course!

Dear Muffin; The poodle crosses are not a BREED. Not even close to being a breed - this is just a *marketing term* used by *unscrupulous people* to sell dogs *bred for profit*. Whether they are raised in a nice home or good neighbourhood they are all mill dogs because they are bred strictly for profit

One reason for the mixing of poodles is because poodles have a bad reputation as a fufu breed. Many people want the *qualities of a poodle* - non-shedding smart dogs that love people - *without the name POODLE*.

I feel sorry for the people who purchase poodle crosses thinking they have a better dog than a plain old poodle but agree a fool and their money are soon parted. I do not think poorly of the mixed breeds who are loved by their owners but hope that one day this *fad* will pass. 

No one who buys a mixed breed is a bad person just not educated yet!


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

muffin said:


> Of course I don't think that's cute buttercup, don't be ridiculous! I do *not* support irresponsible breeding or pet ownership, which is what is causing the problems you are talking about. These mixed breeds _can_ be responsibly bred. Not everyone wants a purebred dog. People have been mixing breeds for personal reasons for hundreds of years. It's not about educating people about buying a purebred dog, it's about educating them to the ethical and humane treatment of all animals- and demanding quality bred dogs and mixes. You are twisting what I said about doodles and mixed breeds to puppy mills and BYBs. I don't think there is a single person on this forum that actually supports those.


Please enlighten me on how someone responsibly breeds mutts that have no breed standard...if someone doesn't want a pure bred go to a shelter or find a rescue


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

Please enlighten me on how someone responsibly breeds mutts that have no breed standard...and what is your money going into when you pay thousands for that mutt? I know with my purebred from a good breeder that moneys being paid into all the health test, show cost, stud fees, handling fees etc.. if someone doesn't want a pure bred go to a shelter or find a rescue


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

Ugh stupid phone messing up my post!!


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Lol Katie you do like being controversial don’t you? 
My answer is he is a poodle x 

As to the eternal doodle debate
Here’s my two cents worth. While I’m not a fan of poodle crosses (my issue is that dreadful groomers nightmare of a coat that shows up in so many of them) I can understand the reasoning behind the creation of labradoodles and do not think badly of those truly trying to create a new breed. 
The first breed I fell in love with growing up was after all a true ‘designer dog’ created recently (in historical terms) to fulfil a purpose when there wasn’t another breed that suited, it’s now a well-established and much loved breed and I think the world would be poorer without it.
I am not so arrogant as to believe we have reached the pinnacle of existence, our society is ever evolving as is the use that we find for the dogs in our life and sometimes we find a use that no current breed entirely fits, the labradoodle was initially designed for just this reason to create an intelligent highly trainable familyfriendly dog that was suitable for allergy sufferers yet not as hyper or nervous as the poodle (something that must be blamed on the majority of the local poodle breeders of the time, breeding entirely for the show ring and making no effort to breed for good temperament or socialise pups) they may have done better going back to the barbet which the labradoodle often ends up looking like anyway.

My point here is that every breed is created at some point even our beloved poodles, and should not be discriminated against for that. The focus should always be on those who breed for the wrong reasons (money) who make no effort to improve the breed, fail to health test or socialise pups. And those breeders exist within the poodle fraternity as much as the labradoodle. 
So maybe instead of criticizing people for buying a doodle, maybe educate them on the advantages of buying from a reputable breeder. 
I truly believe the doodle craze wouldn’t have been nearly as bad if poodle breeders had done their job better, breeding for temperament as well as conformation, and showing people that everything they were looking for was there in the wonderful versatile poodle.
Including the ability to look like a scruffy scraggly ‘mans’ dog if that was required.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

I see both sides of the story here. You all have some very good points, and I completely understand what you are saying about _how_ the doodles are bred and marketed. But I also see the side of the person who wants a lab that doesn't shed. I know next to nothing about breeding so I am definitely overstepping my boundaries here, but who's to say you can't breed a sound lab with a sound poodle and sell the resulting labradoodles to families as companions, if that is what they want. I don't think the labradoodles should be bred or even be considered a breed unto themselves. I guess I'm trying to say something like a donkey (or is it a mule?) where a horse is bred with some other hooved creature, but the donkeys themselves can't and shouldn't be bred with each other. I say this because what you guys have mentioned about the lack of reliable genetic testing and whatnot. I also think back to the origins of the doberman pinscher (18th century?), how a tax collector wanted a specific new breed of dog to help and protect him with his tax collection business. Was he doing such a disservice to the greyhounds and rottweilers by wanting something different? I agree that all the hype over the doodles and designer breeds are completely misguided. I wholeheartedly believe that you simply cannot fix stupid. People will always make misconceptions about all breeds, just as people do about other races of humans. We should totally still do our best to educate people to the truth, but it is impossible to fix other people's intolerances. Some people are going to buy into the hype and want a doodle no matter what you tell them about purebred poodles. Just my opinion, but if they're going to be in such demand, I think it should be more important to expose the inhumane treatment of animals bred in puppy mills than discrediting the designer breeds altogether. I'm hoping it's just a phase that will quickly die off, but if someone is willing to pay the money for one, why not let them indulge so long as no animals are being abused or neglected.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

buttercup123 said:


> Please enlighten me on how someone responsibly breeds mutts that have no breed standard...if someone doesn't want a pure bred go to a shelter or find a rescue


As I briefly mentioned in my last post about the doberman pinscher, when they first came about, there was no breed standard for them either. It takes time and responsible breeding to develop a properly mixed breed dog. (Yes, I still believe mixes can be properly bred, with effort). Rome wasn't built in a day. 

When I first decided I wanted a poodle (or doodle, as I just as well liked everything about them too) the first place I went was the Humane Society and the county's animal shelter. All pit bulls. I contacted my local poodle rescue, but none of the dogs were a good fit for my family (not good with kids, other dogs, etc). I will *not* sacrifice the safety and well being of my family to rescue a dog that isn't a good fit for my family in the first place. I would rather see a dog be put to sleep than live a life being scolded/punished/neglected/what have you because the family thought they were doing the "noble" thing rescuing a dog they clearly weren't suitable for. I have to disagree with your purebred or rescue, with nothing in between. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you're getting at about people paying thousands of dollars for a mixed breed dog, and you won't get any argument from me there. Truth is, they _are_ getting a dog that we know next to nothing about with marginalized health and temperament, at best. I do, however, think they can and should be thoughtfully bred and sold for what they are worth, not for profit by puppy mills and BYBs, but carefully selected for quality to those who wish for one. Unfortunately, money talks. For centuries, royalty and people of high status have always been demanding new and special breeds to flaunt and accessorize with, and that's what they got. Now, people with the money to spend want a doodle. You can't expect the money hungry mills to just ignore this, that is why I say they should be responsibly bred and available to help spread the word against puppy mills.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Designer Dogs |



> The reality isn’t that simple. The truth is a mix of science, hype, mythology, genetics — and the luck of the draw.
> ...
> But are they breeds? Designer mixes are often called breeds but that’s not accurate — at least yet.
> ...
> “A breed is a group of dogs that have been selectively bred to predictably possess and produce certain characteristics, such as speed, size, temperament, performance ability or appearance,” said Strand. “It takes generations of selective breeding to produce healthy dogs that breed true to type.”


*************
Designer Breeds
(Excerpts)


> Your little Shih Pom would undoubtedly be tiny, cute and a loving companion – but *what about all the various health risks *that will become exaggerated with a cross such as this?
> 
> The *experimentation *doesn't seem to have any limits either.
> 
> ...


Design-A-Puppy
Crossbreeds, Designer Dogs, Hybrid, Mixed Breeds Puppies For Sale
Designer Dogs Kennel Club - Home
DesignerDoggies.com - Puggle, Cockapoo, Peagle, Pugsund, Boston Puppies Available in California!

News:
'Designer dogs' or mutt, the costs are adding up - Business - US business - Bloomberg Businessweek - msnbc.com


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

From the Bloomberg Businessweek article (bolding mine):

"A custom-bred goldendoodle puppy, a cross between a golden retriever and a poodle, costs up to $1,500 — twice the price of either of its parents. In spite of such success, however, the industry lacks what it covets most: *respect from the Dog Establishment*, and the financial opportunities that come with that respect."


As poodle owners, we are members of the Poodle Dog Establishment, and IMHO it is part of our responsibility to NEVER give the doodle industry respect.


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

muffin said:


> As I briefly mentioned in my last post about the doberman pinscher, when they first came about, there was no breed standard for them either. It takes time and responsible breeding to develop a properly mixed breed dog. (Yes, I still believe mixes can be properly bred, with effort). Rome wasn't built in a day.
> 
> When I first decided I wanted a poodle (or doodle, as I just as well liked everything about them too) the first place I went was the Humane Society and the county's animal shelter. All pit bulls. I contacted my local poodle rescue, but none of the dogs were a good fit for my family (not good with kids, other dogs, etc). I will *not* sacrifice the safety and well being of my family to rescue a dog that isn't a good fit for my family in the first place. I would rather see a dog be put to sleep than live a life being scolded/punished/neglected/what have you because the family thought they were doing the "noble" thing rescuing a dog they clearly weren't suitable for. I have to disagree with your purebred or rescue, with nothing in between. Don't get me wrong, I completely understand what you're getting at about people paying thousands of dollars for a mixed breed dog, and you won't get any argument from me there. Truth is, they _are_ getting a dog that we know next to nothing about with marginalized health and temperament, at best. I do, however, think they can and should be thoughtfully bred and sold for what they are worth, not for profit by puppy mills and BYBs, but carefully selected for quality to those who wish for one. Unfortunately, money talks. For centuries, royalty and people of high status have always been demanding new and special breeds to flaunt and accessorize with, and that's what they got. Now, people with the money to spend want a doodle. You can't expect the money hungry mills to just ignore this, that is why I say they should be responsibly bred and available to help spread the word against puppy mills.


The difference with the Dobe is that was thousands of years ago when there wasnt many breeds to choose from. There is a breed to fit everyone in this day and age. 
Not to mention they were breeding towards something and he wanted that dog for a purpose not just "a good family pet". He wasnt just constantly breeding 2 different breeds together and selling them. It's totally different, to compare the 2 is ridiculous.

As for you going to a rescue, it's called patience.
The dog you want might not be there right away, there are also more then just one rescue. Sounds more like you wanted a puppy and you wanted it right then.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Breeders need people to buy puppies to help support their breeding programmes. We need to keep breeds healthy by keeping their gene pools broad and deep. When people buy mongrel puppies, they are contributing nothing to the improvement and sustenance of a breed. They are lining the pockets of someone who considers themselves an entrepreneur rather than a breeder. When you buy a purebred puppy from a good breeder, you are not only getting an animal with a health guarantee from quality parents, but you are supporting that breeder in his/her work to preserve the breed.

The problem is that people are not educating themselves properly. They hear about something called ‘hybrid vigour’ but they don’t research into what it means thoroughly enough. They buy into an idea with no justification behind it because many people are reiterating it and because ‘reverse snobbery’ is the flavour of the month. If these people had been better informed, they might have bought from a real breeder. The market is being flooded with mutt puppies and memes posing as science and this is actually hurting good breeders by making it harder for them to sell their puppies.

On new breeds ― if people are interested in new breeds, there are several real ones around to choose from that have respectable-sounding names and are being developed by dedicated people with a goal in mind. There are also many endangered breeds, and people can help breeders and help to popularise these breeds by buying their puppies. The portmanteau mutt names are ugly and idiotic. Something with toy poodle and shih-tsu in its ancestry is marketed as a ‘****poo’ ― how is this respecting an animal or breeding it for a purpose when its name is a faecal pun that inspires derision or amusement? The Doberman analogy someone else presented doesn’t work, because Herr Dobermann created his breed for a purpose, and certainly not so he could line his pockets and breed 'Rhipweilets'. 

It is annoying, for people who appreciate a certain breed, to see that breed standard and the image of that particular dog polluted by people with brick-headed dogs with horrible postures and coats, who say their animals are ‘designer’ dogs who have the best attributes of both the breeds used to create them. And it is annoying to see ignorant Internet adverts that say things like ‘The Most Uniqeu Puppy’s in the World. These are rottinglabiadoodles they’re mummy is a cross between a labrador and a toy poodle and their daddy is rottenviler with hip dysplaser and a endorsment on his paper’s. They do not moult and are good for people with allergy’s. We think their are 2 boy’s and a girl but were not sure, there were 5 at first but mum ate the other 2, she is only 10 months old and we think the birth was scary for her.’


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

buttercup123 said:


> The difference with the Dobe is that was thousands of years ago


With respect, it was 121 years ago, although I agree with the sentiment of your post.


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## buttercup123 (Oct 7, 2010)

zyrcona said:


> With respect, it was 121 years ago, although I agree with the sentiment of your post.


Haha woops, I thought it was 1800's


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

muffin said:


> But I also see the side of the person who wants a lab that doesn't shed. I know next to nothing about breeding so I am definitely overstepping my boundaries here, but who's to say you can't breed a sound lab with a sound poodle and sell the resulting labradoodles to families as companions, if that is what they want.


Well, first, because you are cross breeding, you really never know what you're going to get with the puppies. You admit that you don't know much about breeding. Well, genetics are not like mixing oil and vinegar and getting salad dressing. The puppies will get certain genes from each parent, and those genes will combine in unique ways in each puppy. It's possible for every single puppy in a litter to look entirely different. Some will shed a lot, some will shed a little and some might not shed. Some will have single coats, some will have double coats, some might look like poodles, some might look like Labs, some might look like mixes of the two, and some might look nothing like a Lab or poodle, or even what people think a doodle looks like. And the kicker is, you rarely know in puppyhood if a puppy will end up with a shedding coat or non-shedding or somewhere in between because the puppy coat is quite different from the adult coat. If someone really wants a non-shedding Lab they had better get an adult that already has it's adult coat and is obviously non-shedding, otherwise it's a crap shoot.

This is one of the biggest issues I have with doodle breeders and other crossbreeders. They sell these puppies telling the owners they will only inherit the best genes from each parent: they will be healthier than their parents, they will act like Labs (but be calm and easily trained), be hypoallergenic and have non-shedding coats that don't require the grooming that a poodle requires. The truth is you NEVER know how these puppies will turn out, and trust me, if they have a non-shedding coat they will need to be groomed. If they shed, what does the person do who needed an allergy friendly dog? If they are hyper and out of control, what does the person do who was told their dog would be calm and mellow? If they matt like crazy, what does the person do who was told they would not need much grooming? 

So many doodles (and other crossbreeds, like puggles) are in rescue because they are NOT what they were advertised to be and people give them up.




muffin said:


> I don't think the labradoodles should be bred or even be considered a breed unto themselves. I guess I'm trying to say something like a donkey (or is it a mule?) where a horse is bred with some other hooved creature, but the donkeys themselves can't and shouldn't be bred with each other. I say this because what you guys have mentioned about the lack of reliable genetic testing and whatnot


.

If the labradoodle is ever going to have a shot at breeding true and becoming legitimate than this is what HAS to happen. However, I've looked at the various clubs for the labradoodle and honestly I don't know that this is going to happen anytime soon if at all. The only labradoodle club that even lists a breed standard has a ridiculous list of all the ways a dog can be a purebred "Australian Labradoodle" including this odd "grading scheme": http://www.ilainc.com/PDF/Grading SchemeCorrected2011.pdf

Also, this group (the Australian Labradoodle Association of America) also requires member breeders to test breeding dogs for hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia (good, right?), but only requires members not to breed their dogs before 12 months of age. We all know that dogs cannot be graded with PennHIP or OFA until they are 2 years of age, so if breeders are following the code of ethics by breeding a dog at 1 year of age, the dog can't be truly tested for hip dysplasia, so I fail to see how this association's guidelines are doing any good.

ALAA Labradoodle Breeder Code of Ethics


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

minipoodlelover said:


> As poodle owners, we are members of the Poodle Dog Establishment, and IMHO it is part of our responsibility to NEVER give the doodle industry respect.


I totally hear what you are saying, but as a mixed poodle owner prior to owning a standard, what is one to do?!


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## Tymaca (Oct 13, 2011)

papoodles said:


> I live in a pretty upscale neighborhood with a lot of young families and the dog of choice around here is a 'doodle'!
> I can see why-they are soo cute as puppies and of course people fall in love with puppies, other families see them being walked, and so they want one too.
> I am the only household with standard poodles, and have never seen another standard around town, and I don't live in a rural area; I think I see more standards in NYC than around here!
> Actually, I do know someone who has two standards: our emergency veterinarian.
> Clearly a very brilliant person


I am seriously learning so much on here! I honestly felt pretty awful after getting my poodle/lab mix puppy after realizing all the BYB/Puppy Mills that are mass producing them. I also live in a nice neighborhood where "doodles" are the "standard". It is a dog to be admired and looked up to as a family. I was ignorant to what the breeding was really all about. It was after that realization that I decided my next dog would be a SPOO. I love everything about the breed and not only did I want one, I wanted to adopt one from someone who could no longer take care of theirs or from a rescue. I figured there are way too many dogs in need of a home to ever be selfish again for my next dog. It was the best decision I could have ever made. I will ALWAYS love and adore my mixed dog, but know better now not to endorse purposeful mixed breeding. Thank you for that!


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> Also, this group (the Australian Labradoodle Association of America) also requires member breeders to test breeding dogs for hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia (good, right?), but only requires members not to breed their dogs before 12 months of age. We all know that dogs cannot be graded with PennHIP or OFA until they are 2 years of age, so if breeders are following the code of ethics by breeding a dog at 1 year of age, the dog can't be truly tested for hip dysplasia, so I fail to see how this association's guidelines are doing any good.
> 
> ALAA Labradoodle Breeder Code of Ethics


not quite right from the pennhip website:

How Old Must My Dog be to Have a PennHIP Radiograph?


PennHIP has studied the efficacy of this method from the eight weeks up to three years of age. The PennHIP method can be reliably performed on a dog as young as 16 weeks old. Passive hip laxity at 16 weeks correlates highly with later hip laxity. In other words, a dog's hip laxity at 16 weeks will be much the same at one year, two years or even three years. The accuracy of laxity measurements for German Shepherd Dogs less than 16 weeks of age is not high enough to be of clinical use. Other breeds require study to determine the earliest reliable age of evaluation.

The looser the joint, as determined by the PennHIP method, the greater is the chance that the hip will develop DJD. (The standard hip-extended method can actually mask true hip joint laxity). There are obvious advantages to screening dogs for hip joint laxity at 4 months of age (or six months, 1 year, etc.) as opposed to waiting until 2 years of age. The reliability of the PennHIP method slightly improves with age, with one year 1 year being marginally superior to 6 months, which in turn is marginally better than 4 months. For all dogs, we recommend when possible, to use the mean (average) of repeated evaluations to get a more reliable estimate of a dog's hip laxity status (phenotype).


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

Tymaca said:


> I am seriously learning so much on here! I honestly felt pretty awful after getting my poodle/lab mix puppy after realizing all the BYB/Puppy Mills that are mass producing them. I also live in a nice neighborhood where "doodles" are the "standard". It is a dog to be admired and looked up to as a family. I was ignorant to what the breeding was really all about. It was after that realization that I decided my next dog would be a SPOO. I love everything about the breed and not only did I want one, I wanted to adopt one from someone who could no longer take care of theirs or from a rescue. I figured there are way too many dogs in need of a home to ever be selfish again for my next dog. It was the best decision I could have ever made. I will ALWAYS love and adore my mixed dog, but know better now not to endorse purposeful mixed breeding. Thank you for that!


see this is what annoys me, people shouldn't be made to feel bad for buying a mix, for a start hopefully they didn't know about about the majority of mix breeders being unethical/puppyfarmer types, second those who criticize don't know that the breeder involved was one of those types and not someone who did all relevant tests and was working towards creating a new breed.

I'm in a different situation from most of you, here in NZ the majority of spoo breeders are no better than the doodle breeders you despise which has given me a totally different perspective of the issue. we also have a few ethical doodle breeders who health test, socialize/temperament test and are working toward creating a breed standard.

once again the focus should always be on the ethics of of the breeder involved not their choice of breed or x


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Anntig, you are correct, thank you. OFA is two years, PennHIP is younger.

Although I still think 12 months is awfully young to breed a dog.


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## Anntig (Jun 9, 2010)

agree I'd prefer to see them wait till the dog's at least two before breeding poss three for some poodles. but that's because I think the bitch needs to be full grown and mature enough to handle it.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Originally Posted by minipoodlelover 
"As poodle owners, we are members of the Poodle Dog Establishment, and IMHO it is part of our responsibility to NEVER give the doodle industry respect."

Tymaca- I think the disdain is fully reserved for the doodle'breeders' and not the people who buy /fall in love with a puppy and bring it home. 
Why should you feel bad or apologize for loving your doodle? I sure wouldn't.
My best, most beloved standard came from a BYB and I don't apologize for that either. He was a fantastic dog, the best dog ever.Now, knowing what I do about genetic health issues in standards, I wouldn't go that route again. So you live and you learn. And you already did so because you adopted your very own Spoo.
It is nobody's business but yours what dog you chose to love- and your dogs certainly don't care about their genetic background, right? They are just happy to have each other to play with.
It's just that this is a Poodle forum so people care to debate this issue rather strongly- but I hope always keeping in the back of their mind that we are here because we love 'animals'
Though now we can debate if a poodle is ONLY an animal


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Anntig said:


> are working toward creating a breed standard.


But a breed standard is impossible considering these animals are by definition a cross between a x and a y and did not come about for a specific purpose.

Here are some examples of real new breeds: this very year, the American Kennel Club granted recognition to three new breeds: the Finnish Lapphund, the American English Coonhound, and the Cesky Terrier. Want a breed that's still in development? Look into the Shiloh Shepherd, Dorset Old Tyme Bulldog, or Tamaskan Dog. All of these genuine new breeds have at their origin a person with an idea who oversees the development of dogs to a specific standard. Want to help an endangered native breed? Try here. An Introduction to the Vulnerable Native Breeds - The Kennel Club

No, there is nothing wrong with owning crossbreeds/mutts/mongrels etc., but they are nothing new and they are not worth £1,000 apiece. This oodle and poo rubbish is just a marketing gimmick applied to something that by its nature is inexpensive and easy to obtain. When someone breeds a mutt, there is none of the pedigree research, conformational evaluation, and genetics understanding that there would be in breeding dogs of an established or developing breed. It's in principle the same as selling bean bags as luxury orthopaedic sofas for a greatly inflated price. No, there's nothing wrong with bean bags, but they sure as hell aren't luxury orthopaedic sofas.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Tymaca said:


> I totally hear what you are saying, but as a mixed poodle owner prior to owning a standard, what is one to do?!


Thanks for accurately clarifying papoodles.

It is the commercial industry churning out these puppies that I will never respect, and I don't feel what they are doing should be legitmized, ever. We can't stop the unscrupulous breeders, but we can criticize them, educate other people, and disallow them to participate in registries, showing, etc., which seems to matter to them.

One of my very best friends has a poodle cross. I love her dog (though I can't help but notice his faults from both breeds). She knew next to nothing about any of the issues we've raised here when she purchased her puppy. I wish she had, but I'm certainly not going to hold it against HER or her dog.

As far as what you should do - love your dog and enjoy him every day. At least you took the time to educate yourself now, which is more than many people do.


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