# Silvers and Clearing



## Liz

I'm seeing a lot of silvers who have cleared to different shades, so that the head is a different shade than the feet, for example. Do we know which genes are responsible for clearing and why the expression of those genes isn't uniform? Is there a penalty when showing, if the dog is over 2 years old?


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## peppersb

I'm surprised that no one has answered this. My understanding is that it is common for the lower legs and snout of a silver to be a little lighter. The photos below are of Sting who is my Sam's father and you can see some variation.

The genes that cause black poodles to clear to silver or blue have not been identified. 

I don't think there is any penalty for showing a dog who is two years old, but there are plenty of people here who know more about showing than I do.


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## zooeysmom

I don't believe there is any penalty. It seems that most silvers clear at the same pace, although some are really platinum at a young age, like Dolly and Maizie's sister, Star.


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## Mfmst

For grins, I googled images of silver CH poodles. I saw one with four seemingly perfectly matched light bracelets and one that had cleared with two light bracelets in front, and darker ones on the hind legs. I thought both would be fun to watch in motion. Black and white poodles already have an edge, over every other color, yet the coat only gets 10 points. I guess it is allegedly about coat quality and the coat color is supposed to be to the breed standard. A silver coat can clear in variations and still be the standard. Just my armchair observations.


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## LittleAussiePoodle

I'm the one to ask about dog coat genetics, I live and breathe this stuff! 
Blue poodles (the ones with the blue nose and who don't grey as they age) are genetically black dogs with the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus, but I have always thought silver poodles to be caused by the progressive greying gene, on the 'G' locus. I know for sure it is not dilute, because these dogs have black noses.
I also think Cafe poodles (or whatever colour it is that is dark brown but fades to a creamy brown) are genetically liver dogs with the progressive greying gene. This would make Cafe and silver the same colour, but with the eumelanin particles spread further apart in the brown variant.
I think there is another kind of brown fading poodle, but from photos I have seen, these dogs are actually either isabella (Cafe) or blue (silver) with the greying gene and/or sun bronzing. I would need to see pictures of the dogs as pups and a good image of their bodies + nose to tell for sure.

Can someone tell me if silver poodles are born dark? As in, born black, or very close to black? If so, I would bet a million dollars that they are caused by the progressive greying gene. If not, it is possible that it's an unfound gene. This is unlikely, I have never heard of a greying gene which has no yet known genetic cause.

Actually, I am inclined, as a dog coat genetic expert, to think that my dog Hendrix is actually a recessive red (white through red) with the greying gene. His coat colour is caused by phaeomelanin, and the greying gene effects this to a lesser effect than eumelanin. He was an apricot at birth, but is white to very faint apricot/creamish now. 
This could interest some poodle breeders out there. I have read that often apricot or red dogs fade a lot as they age in dogs who maybe aren't bred as well. If that's true, this could be because they carry the greying gene. I don't know why I never thought of that before.

Oh, and yes, progressive greying fades unevenly. The progressive greying gene has not yet been located, but we have put it on the 'G' (greying) locus. We know it is completely *EDIT* DOMINANT OVER, not recessive to non-greying, we just don't know how it looks in the genetic code.


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## Muggles

Silver and blue poodles are born black. Silver will have obviously silver faces by about 6 weeks. 

Silver beige and cafe poodles are born dark brown. Silver beige, like silver, clear quickly. Cafe clear slowly, like blue.


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## LittleAussiePoodle

That's interesting.
I did some research, Cafe poodles are actually liver pigmented (they have brown noses and lighter eyes than a black dog, yes?). I am told that silver beige poodles may sometimes have a black/blue nose, which could be the colour I spoke of earlier. 
I would say that Cafe is the same as silver (but liver pigmented), though as I have no experience with dogs of this colour, I couldn't tell you for sure. Silver beige is a bit harder. It's probably a mixture of things, but that is very hard to pin down, given that they are liver pigmented. If they are born dark, they can't be dilutes. If they are 100% liver at birth, they can't be blues with sun bronzing, so this kind of stumps me.
If they are black or blue at birth and have black or blue noses, that's easy, but that doesn't seem to be what it is.
I have seen pictures, and they seem to fade very slowly, which would be odd for a progressive grey dog. It seems like progressive greying on a phaeomelnian coat, but that's impossible, given that the dogs are such a dark liver. No recessive red or clear sable would be that light.
Maybe it is caused by a modifier of the progressive greying gene on a normal Cafe? I will go ask some people and do some more thinking and get back to you if I think I have found the answer.

Note: If I have the colours messed up, what I mean is that the colour which looks like a brown silver is probably a brown silver. The one that fades much later could be caused by something else.


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## twyla

Actually Silver beige is like a silver they start clearing early as young pups and Cafe like blue starts later around 18 months.


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## peppersb

LittleAussiePoodle said:


> I'm the one to ask about dog coat genetics, I live and breathe this stuff!
> Blue poodles (the ones with the blue nose and who don't grey as they age) are genetically black dogs with the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus, but I have always thought silver poodles to be caused by the progressive greying gene, on the 'G' locus. I know for sure it is not dilute, because these dogs have black noses.
> I also think Cafe poodles (or whatever colour it is that is dark brown but fades to a creamy brown) are genetically liver dogs with the progressive greying gene. This would make Cafe and silver the same colour, but with the eumelanin particles spread further apart in the brown variant.
> I think there is another kind of brown fading poodle, but from photos I have seen, these dogs are actually either isabella (Cafe) or blue (silver) with the greying gene and/or sun bronzing. I would need to see pictures of the dogs as pups and a good image of their bodies + nose to tell for sure.
> 
> Can someone tell me if silver poodles are born dark? As in, born black, or very close to black? If so, I would bet a million dollars that they are caused by the progressive greying gene. If not, it is possible that it's an unfound gene. This is unlikely, I have never heard of a greying gene which has no yet known genetic cause.
> 
> Actually, I am inclined, as a dog coat genetic expert, to think that my dog Hendrix is actually a recessive red (white through red) with the greying gene. His coat colour is caused by phaeomelanin, and the greying gene effects this to a lesser effect than eumelanin. He was an apricot at birth, but is white to very faint apricot/creamish now.
> This could interest some poodle breeders out there. I have read that often apricot or red dogs fade a lot as they age in dogs who maybe aren't bred as well. If that's true, this could be because they carry the greying gene. I don't know why I never thought of that before.
> 
> Oh, and yes, progressive greying fades unevenly. The progressive greying gene has not yet been located, but we have put it on the 'G' (greying) locus. We know it is completely *EDIT* DOMINANT OVER, not recessive to non-greying, we just don't know how it looks in the genetic code.



Well, I am certainly not an expert, but I did spend some time looking into this when I bred Cammie (cream) to Sting, the silver champion pictured above in post #2. (We ended up with 4 creams and one blue.)

My understanding is that while the recessive dilute gene on the 'D' locus causes blue in some breeds, it is very rare in poodles (but does occur).

The genetic cause of the blue that we normally see in poodles has not been identified, so there is no genetic test for it. It is thought to be a case of incomplete dominance where the dog is silver if it has 2 of the fading genes, blue if he has one and black if he has none. So unlike the genetics for cream (cream is recessive -- you need two cream genes to get a cream dog), fading is incomplete dominance. If you have one fading gene and one that is not fading, you fade a little bit -- e.g. blue. Puppies inherit one fading or non-fading gene from each parent. This theory corresponds with the observation of what happens. If you breed black to a black, any pups born black will remain black. Breed silver to silver and any pups born black will clear to silver. But breed blue to blue and you can get silver, blue or black. That’s because a pup could inherit either a fading gene or a non-fading gene from each parents and could end up with 2, 1 or no fading genes -- so they could be silver, blue or black. I’ve heard reference to this being on the ‘V’ locus, but I’m not sure what that means if the genes have not been indentified. 

The mechanism for browns clearing to cafe au lait or silver beige is the same, probably controlled by exactly the same gene/allele. But the mechanism for determining where a pup falls on the red-apricot-cream-white spectrum is very different.


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## Liz

Thanks, PeppersB. That was very a clear explanation.


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## LittleAussiePoodle

I did some research, and it appears you are right. The progressive greying gene on the 'G' locus is dominant, and it's thought that when homozygous, it may clear to a lighter colour than a heterozygous dog. So silvers, who breed true, would be homozygous, while blues, who do not breed true, would be heterozygous.
More research is probably needed on the topic, but you can see this sort of thing in Irish Wolfhounds. Some of them are a very dark grey, while some are light. As far as I am aware, the lighter version breeds true. So yes, it looks like incomplete dominance of the same allele. I would guess that Cafe and silver beige are just the liver version of the same thing.

Red, apricot, cream, and white poodles are all recessive reds, so I imagine breeding for a certain colour would require a lot of looking back at previous generations, seeing as the shade of recessive red is inherited.


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## Liz

Thanks PeppersB and LittleAussiePoodle for cracking that part of the genetic code for me.

I found this old thread which is helpful and directed me to VetGen's site.

Just to see if I understand, the B allele codes for Black (B) or Brown (b) and the G allele - which was also called the V allele? - codes for greying/fading/clearing, where G doesn't fade and g fades. So:

BBGG = Black
BBGg = Blue
BBgg = Silver

BbGG = Black carrying brown
BbGg = Blue carrying brown
Bbgg = Silver carrying Brown

bbGG = Brown
bbGg = Cafe au Lait
bbgg = silver beige

Finally, there is the E allele for reds, and the S allele for parti-coloring and what VetGen calls "extreme white."


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## Verve

To the best of my knowledge, we DO NOT KNOW and cannot test for the genes in *poodles* that cause fading, i.e., light browns, blues, and silvers. Puppies that are born black or dark brown and then clear dramatically as they mature are much different from poodles known as "bluebells" or "born blue" that suffer from color dilution alopecia:

https://en.wikivet.net/Colour_Dilution_Alopecia

As for showing, I *think* there are two or maybe three things going on. The first is that different parts of the body clear at different rates. The second is that patterns like phantom and brindle DO pop up in silver lines, and it can be difficult sometimes to distinguish (in puppy show coat) whether a solid dog is just clearing, or if they are in fact not solid. A friend showed her silver girl, and had one judge spend a LONG time carefully inspecting her. A few years ago a prominent handler was showing a very pretty silver puppy that was in all likelihood a phantom. 

So bottom line about color/pattern testing in poodles: we CAN test for sable/phantom/brindle; we CANNOT test to predict whether a dog can produce silver/blue/cafe.


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## peppersb

Liz -- I think that what you have said is generally correct. But two comments:

1. The G (sometimes called V) has not been mapped so while you can test for Bb, you cannot test for Gg and it remains theoretical. 

2. If any of the genetic combinations that you mention are also ee, then the dog would be white, cream, apricot or red. (You can test for Ee).

Here's an article that sums it all up very nicely (scroll down to the article by MJ Rawlings).

http://www.poodleclubcanada.club/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/MARCH_PCC_2015.pdf


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## Liz

Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate the links. Adding in the E locus:

Eumelanin is E and phaeomelanin (spelled pheomelanin in the US), a red pigment, is e. EE and Ee are silent, producing whatever the B and V (theoretical) loci say: black or brown with the potential for clearing.

If the dog is ee, we may get red, apricot, cream, or white poodles. However the points on these dogs will still be whatever is at the B locus, which is why we can get a white poodle with brown points (it's a bbee).

But, of the dog is ee, how do we know which color (red, apricot, cream, white) we will get?


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## peppersb

Liz said:


> Thanks, everyone! I really appreciate the links. Adding in the E locus:
> 
> Eumelanin is E and phaeomelanin (spelled pheomelanin in the US), a red pigment, is e. EE and Ee are silent, producing whatever the B and V (theoretical) loci say: black or brown with the potential for clearing.
> 
> If the dog is ee, we may get red, apricot, cream, or white poodles. However the points on these dogs will still be whatever is at the B locus, which is why we can get a white poodle with brown points (it's a bbee).
> 
> But, of the dog is ee, how do we know which color (red, apricot, cream, white) we will get?


There is no genetic test to differentiate between red, apricot, cream and white. But if you look back in the pedigree, you can see what colors are behind the dog. So for example, my Cammie (cream -- BBee) had a lot of white and cream in her pedigree. She was bred to Sting, a silver who is BBEe. The ee dogs in his pedigree are all white and cream. So you can bet that any ee puppies that they produced would be white or cream. To check a dog's color pedigree, go to look the dog up at poodledata.org (you may need to set up a free account). Then go to the dog's 5 generation pedigree, and from there choose the color pedigree. Here is a direct link to Sam's color pedigree. (Sam is one of Cammie and Sting's puppies.)

Five generation pedigree: CH New Destiny's Sam

Interestingly, an ee dog can still carry the genetic code for clearing. Even though you do not see it in a cream dog like Sam, he can pass it on to his offspring.


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## Liz

OK, so we don't know the genetics behind the reds, other than that the dog needs to be homozygous e.

*Partis*

The S locus controls parti-color, and I'm guessing we don't really know the genes behind how much color/how much white is in the coat, and how much ticking pops up over time (partis tend to get more ticking as they age, but breeders can influence the amount, so it has a genetic component).

The illustration on the bottom of pg 17 (?) is misleading. It looks like they're calling a classic parti-colour E-B-ss and heavy colour parti E-bbss, but really that's just the difference between a black parti and a brown parti.

It's interesting that Ss is thought to create mismarks; years ago some very good breeders pushed back against the idea that breeding mismarks together could create parti-colours. 

*Agouti* (Brindle, Sable, Phantom)

First, if the dog is ee, it won't also show a pattern, so the dog must be EE or Ee (or Em-).

Second, the K locus determines if there is a pattern. If the dog is KK or Kk it will be solid. If the dog is kk, it will have a pattern: if it has a copy of the k(br) variant, it will be brindle or "dirty phantom" and if it has two k it will be phantom or sable. I don't think I've seen all of these variations in poodles, so it's hard for me to visualize.

Finally, the exact pattern is then determined by the A locus: a(t), a, and (a).

Phew. Thanks everyone. I got a little sidetracked by the genetics, but I appreciate the tutorial.


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## Liz

Verve said:


> As for showing, I *think* there are two or maybe three things going on. The first is that different parts of the body clear at different rates. The second is that patterns like phantom and brindle DO pop up in silver lines, and it can be difficult sometimes to distinguish (in puppy show coat) whether a solid dog is just clearing, or if they are in fact not solid. A friend showed her silver girl, and had one judge spend a LONG time carefully inspecting her. A few years ago a prominent handler was showing a very pretty silver puppy that was in all likelihood a phantom.


Take a look at the silver bitch on the top of page 14 on the link peppersb provided. To my eye, she's clearing in a pattern that looks similar to how phantoms are colored. If you look at a later photo on the breeder's website (scroll down to the bottom to find CH Sandhill Colors Of The Rainbow) the pattern is still there. What do you think?


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## dogfriend

*Black Brown combo?*

Hi, I'm curious to know more about what the Bb combo means for "blues."

Mabel is a classic blue, but her favorite poodle friend is a distinctly black-brown dog. I'm wondering whether this is a subset of blues or even greys. Is the black-brown (Bb) entirely invisible phenotypically, just carried genetically?

Thanks!


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## LittleAussiePoodle

It's just carried genetically. Think of it as a black dog carrying brown. There is a colouration called seal brown, but we as of yet do not know the alleles for it, and it is not caused by this. Black is a complete dominant.

To answer the question above, white, cream, apricot, and red are all the same gene. They are just recessive reds with different intensities of phaeomelanin. We as of yet do not know the alleles for the intensity, but it is inherited. A silver or blue dog with recessive red may clear as it ages, and this is what I believe my Hendrix to be. The clearing affects phaeomelanin to a lesser effect, however.


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## Liz

Can you show me an example of a black-brown dog? I'm wondering if this is an agouti pattern.

As said above, a BbVv would clear to blue but be a carrier of brown, and it would be phenotypically undistinguishable from a BBVv.


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## LittleAussiePoodle

Well black carrying brown is just normal black phenotypically, but the pattern called seal brown is seen in greyhounds, maybe other breeds, too. I know Akitas show a similar pattern, but that looks more like an agouti or very dark shaded sable colouration. 
Here is one of the first websites that showed up for seal. You can see examples if you scroll down: Dog Coat Colour Genetics

The only difference between a blue/silver carrying liver and blue/silver not carrying liver would be that the former would be able to produce liver carrying puppies.


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## peppersb

dogfriend said:


> Hi, I'm curious to know more about what the Bb combo means for "blues."
> 
> Mabel is a classic blue, but her favorite poodle friend is a distinctly black-brown dog. I'm wondering whether this is a subset of blues or even greys. Is the black-brown (Bb) entirely invisible phenotypically, just carried genetically?
> 
> Thanks!


How old is the black-brown poodle? When a blue poodle is clearing it may have a musty look that might be the black-brown that you are seeing. So if the poodle is young (less than 2 years old), that might be what you are seeing. Just a guess.

As others have said, a BB dog looks exactly like a Bb dog.


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## Liz

Peppersb - that's what I was thinking, too. I've also seen a brindle poodle who cleared blue, and he had a coat that could be described as "black-brown."


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## LittleAussiePoodle

Could also be bronzing.


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## dogfriend

the black blue dog in question is still quite young--probably eight or nine months old.

I think that chances are he is a blue clearing in a patchy sort of way. Though I know his owners, and know he was purchased as a mini poodle, I also think there's a distinct possibility that he has some other breed mixed in, as he does not come from a good breeding situation (read amish puppy mill). 

The other possibility that has occurred to me is that he is actually a parti. 

Will be interesting to see how his color changes with age. Mabel really loves him and they go to the same puppy daycare on occasion, so he's in our lives!


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