# malocussion



## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

My dog Phoenix had this problem and we had doggie braces put on her when she was around 5 months that pushed the tooth outwards. But this had to be done before the tooth was done growing. So it might be too late for this treatment.

I advise you get a dental consultation at the U of I vet school to see what your options are. I would do it soon if it were me.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

MiniPoo said:


> I advise you get a dental consultation at the U of I vet school to see what your options are. I would do it soon if it were me.


I'm chatting with PetPlan right now to find out what the coverage is for specialists - i think it is 80%. I will call the vet school tomorrow morning to see if they can get him in regardless though. His teeth aren't quite done growing so fingers crossed he might still be young enough

How did Phoenix react to the braces?


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

The procedure worked but it was a PITA for all. She was anesthetized to apply the brace to both sides of her mouth even though only one canine was crooked. Then she could not have toys for about a month and a half and we had to keep dogs from playing tug of war. She had to eat soft food while having the braces. When canine tooth grew up high enough that upper canine locked it into position, then Phoenix was anesthetized a second time to remove braces.

It was the right thing to do in our case but it really curtailed puppy playfulness and was sad to watch.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

We considered braces for Timi, but they said it would be 3-4 anesthesias, so I couldn't see it over one misaligned tooth.
So we went ahead and pulled one of the two that were hitting (Toys tend to loose teeth around middle age anyhow, so it I am kind of used to them having missing teeth). Petplan paid for it (and much to my delight even though we had the spay at the same time, they paid 100 percent for the items such as blood work and anesthesia which covered both procedures, so it made the spay much cheaper for me). So I am sure that Petplan would cover the braces, as they do NOT force you to get the cheaper procedure, however yes, specialists are only covered at 80 percent even if you have 90 or 100 percent coverage.
Tip - when I take them to the Cardiologist, I have the regular vet do bloodwork, fill the prescriptions etc, and that is covered at 100 percent even if it is related to the specialists work, so it really only winds up costing me an extra hundred dollars, no big deal.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

First, why does it appear that his adult canines will not end up clearing the gum? Usually they do. Have they already grown all the way in? Have you been doing ball therapy since the teeth began to erupt? In dogs with base narrow, the adult canines will often start out narrow when they erupt and flare out by the time they reach the gum, especially if you are intervening by applying pressure with your thumbs on the teeth a few times a day in addition to doing ball therapy. If the teeth have already come in and are narrow, however, I think the easiest thing to do is pull them.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

*thank you all*



CharismaticMillie said:


> First, why does it appear that his adult canines will not end up clearing the gum? Usually they do. Have they already grown all the way in? Have you been doing ball therapy since the teeth began to erupt? In dogs with base narrow, the adult canines will often start out narrow when they erupt and flare out by the time they reach the gum, especially if you are intervening by applying pressure with your thumbs on the teeth a few times a day in addition to doing ball therapy. If the teeth have already come in and are narrow, however, I think the easiest thing to do is pull them.


It's not that they they don't look as if they'll clear the gum, it's that they already don't. They've already started to create indents in his upper palate. We've been doing ball therapy, I think at your earlier suggestion, CharismaticMillie , as well as applying pressure multiple times a day as the teeth came in. It definitely appears to have worked better on one side than the other, but the vet said at our last appointment that while the pressure and ball therapy were partially effective, the canines didn't flare out enough to clear the gum entirely. 

Do you have experience with a dog with pulled canines? Does it seem to have affected them in any unexpected ways?

Minipoo, that sounds sad for little puppy Phoenix. Jasper might be too old for braces, but I'll keep your experience in mind if it ends up being an option for him. 

Tinypoodles - thanks for the tip! i will keep that in mind, though it'll be interesting seeing as how the bloodwork is sent to the University by the vet anyway. I don't at all want to be unethical, but if I can get Jasper better without going too broke, I'mm up for anything


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, darn. First, I can't believe the adult canines are already in looking at the age of your puppy! I dont have any experience removing adult canines. Hopefully someone can weigh in! I'd imagine it's obviously ideal for them to keep their canines but I think they would adapt fine to having them removed.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

That's a difficult one. If it were my dog I would probably just go with having them pulled, but like Tiny Poodles I have toys so am much more used to missing teeth. I'm not sure if it would be different with a standard. As for a dog functioning without canines of course they can. I see many dogs without at least one and they function just fine. Heck I see a lot of the tiny dogs come in needing full mouth extractions and they function just fine without any teeth as long as they are put on a soft food diet. Nowadays with processed kibble the canines aren't as necessary as they used to be. It's the big carnassial teeth in the back that do the chewing and grinding. The canines are mostly there for show and ripping into flesh. Is it just one canine that needs attention or the two? I still think if it were me I would go with extraction vs braces. Minipoo's experience sounds so miserable for both owner and dog and that is just not something I would want to put my dog through. 
Another thing I might add, I had a cat when I was younger that needed a full mouth extraction due to a genetic disease his mother gave him. After a week or two he was back to eating perfectly normal hard kibble. He would eat the same food he had his whole life plus he would still hunt and bring me dead mice and birds. Animals find a way to adapt to what they have, so I'm sure if you decide to have the canines extracted Jasper will figure out how to function just fine without them.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I have been twice to the U. of Illinois vet school for dental consultations. Once when Phoenix was a puppy and recently when Dakota had a small tooth. They are very good there. You should have a good idea of what to do after consulting with them.

Phoenix's baby canine was really pointing inward and had made a hole in her palate. When the adult tooth was starting in the same direction, we made the decision to get the braces. Although the tooth was pushed outwards, it still pressed against the side of her upper palate, making an indentation that still exists to this day, but it has not given her any problem and is much better than the hole that would have existed.

I tell you this about Phoenix in case the canine is not pointing too far inward, they might just let it be as long as it is not making a hole.

Vets pull teeth all the time. So I imagine that would be ok too if that is what you decide to do.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Coldbrew said:


> It's not that they they don't look as if they'll clear the gum, it's that they already don't. They've already started to create indents in his upper palate. We've been doing ball therapy, I think at your earlier suggestion, CharismaticMillie , as well as applying pressure multiple times a day as the teeth came in. It definitely appears to have worked better on one side than the other, but the vet said at our last appointment that while the pressure and ball therapy were partially effective, the canines didn't flare out enough to clear the gum entirely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think it is unethical - I am not lying to Petplan, they get all of the medical records so they know exactly what I am doing, and they pay - I have never argued the point with them, they just pay, so why not? I imagine that the rule is in their policy because generally specialty hospitals charge higher rates, so they want to encourage you to use the private vet when possible. I would bet that their paying for bloodwork and meds from the regular vet at 100 percent is probably equal to them paying 80% if you did it at the specialty vet, so no skin off their nose. Probably the only time that they lost money on the deal was when Tangee got one med from a compounding pharmacy - the price was the same no matter who ordered it, but I got 100 percent reimbursement when the private vet ordered it for me instead of the specialist.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sorry about Jasper's teeth. If it were my dog, I would definitely pull the teeth before doing braces.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

We've got an appointment at 8 tomorrow to see a specialist. 

It's looking like just pulling the teeth is both the easiest in terms of both speed of procedure and recovery time, and if it's too late for braces I feel I am leaning toward that route. 

But I will obviously wait and see what the professionals recommended, and will let you all know the verdict tomorrow. 

Thank you all!


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Just to clarify your pup is just four months old? 

I wonder if you could post a pic of the canines piercing the palate?
Usually the teeth are not fully erupted and even if they appear to be inside the gum line they are not tall enough to pierce the palate. 

I realise that pups at this age can have painful mouths just from teething in general and he may balk at you holding him to get a pic. One of my pup's canines was inside her gum line when she was your pups age. I did suggest ball therapy and pressure on the tooth regularly. She had perfect canine placement with her deciduous teeth and I was surprised when I learned of her one lower canine erupting in such a manner. But it did come in normally and at six months her bite is perfect. Bones are soft at this age and if the teeth are just erupting you have a window of time to guide the canines to the proper placements.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

TLP, he's a few weeks short of six months. 

They aren't yet fully erupted but are definitely long enough to tell they aren't going to clear the gum. His left one might, with enough pushing in the next few weeks, clear the gum line, but his right one has already created a small indent in his upper palate.

I did try to get a photo for clarification of what I'm describing, but he's a wiggly little guy and I don't have anyone to hold him still while I wield the camera. I did poke around in Piper's mouth as well, knowing that she has "wonderful teeth" (according to the vet), and the difference in lower canine placement is quit obvious between them even though her teeth are still much smaller. 

Best case scenario, the dental specialist will tell me that a few more weeks of pushing his teeth will make them perfect, but since our regular vet seemed doubtful and I can clearly see the indent in his soft palate, I'd rather be safe than sorry


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> TLP, he's a few weeks short of six months.
> 
> They aren't yet fully erupted but are definitely long enough to tell they aren't going to clear the gum. His left one might, with enough pushing in the next few weeks, clear the gum line, but his right one has already created a small indent in his upper palate.
> 
> ...


So......is his birthday wrong in your signature below, then? If he was born 8/8/15, that makes him not yet 4 months old...


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> So......is his birthday wrong in your signature below, then? If he was born 8/8/15, that makes him not yet 4 months old...


See, I knew I couldn't make a pretty signature without messing something up. :argh:
He was born June 8th, not August 8th (and Piper was also born in June). Duh. 

Sorry, that confusion was totally caused by me! :embarrassed2:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Coldbrew said:


> See, I knew I couldn't make a pretty signature without messing something up. :argh:
> He was born June 8th, not August 8th (and Piper was also born in June). Duh.
> 
> Sorry, that confusion was totally caused by me! :embarrassed2:


Okay. That makes sense and makes a world of difference in both his and Piper's weights and his teeth! Canines are in by 6 months and a TON of growth happens between 4 and 6 months.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Oh wow. I can't even imagine the problems I'd have if he and Piper were actually the size they are at four months :ahhhhh: They'd probably need their hips and elbows replaced by their first birthdays with that giganticism o.0

I'm just going to take down my signature until i can fix it to avoid more confusion


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

*post-consult update*

We saw two wonderful vets and a great vet student this morning.

We've been given a two week "prescription" of more intense ball and pressure therapy than we've already been doing, and in two weeks will go back for a re-check and a procedure if needed.

They suggested tooth pulling, temporary crown extensions, gingivoplasty or an attaching an incline plane to the roof of his mouth to force the teeth into their proper locations. They feel that one tooth is good enough that enough ball and pressure therapy might push it where it belongs, but there is already some damage to his palate from his other tooth so that's the one they're most worried about. 

They took several pictures to document his progress and have emailed them to me so that i can see daily if there's been any change.


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## mamalion (Aug 8, 2014)

I didn't think my first mini's canines would clear right up to the moment they cleared at 6 months. She wound up with a beautiful bite, much to my surprise.

Keep working at them!


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

That inclined plane that you mentioned was what I was calling "braces" and that is what Phoenix had. They put them on both sides even thou only one canine needed it.

I think "crooked canines" are a common occurence but it is one I try to avoid when looking for puppies -- not because it is not fixable, but it sometimes requires time and money and anesthetising your dog to fix it.

I hope the ball and pressure method work for you.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you for the update! I hope in the next two weeks you can get some results!
Keeping my fingers and toes crossed for a good outcome!!!


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

We're six days into what I'm calling "Poor Baby Jasper Teeth Pushing" treatment, and his left bottom canine is now visibly outside his gum. It's not exactly where it's supposed to be but I can tell just by watching him open and close his mouth that he's getting adjusted to it being on the opposite side of his gumline. I'm very hopeful that within a few more days it will be in the correct place.

I'm less certain of progress with the right canine, but since it was much further into his mouth it's possible I've just not pushed it out far enough to see a noticeable difference yet.

If I feel that both teeth are in the right place or at least very close to being there I plan on pushing back our follow-up appointment another week to continue our "PBJTP" as long as the vet(s) is/are in agreement. I'd rather not schedule him for surgery if there's a possibility that continuation of the current treatment will suffice.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

All of my girls and one boy except Cayenne have had their teeth pulled not the ones in the front but others, it has never fazed then eating, I just give them soft food and chewy treats. My 19.5 year old Tina had only 4 teeth left the long ones in the front.

If that was me I would not eat for a week, a day or two later they are all well, vet gives me medication so not to get infected.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Today was two weeks, so we went in for a re-check.

Both vets we saw were impressed by the progress he's made, and recommended another 3 weeks with a slightly larger ball, and then another recheck.

Here is the right side of his mouth. the top photo was taken 12-3, and the bottom was taken today, 12-17








As you can see, his lower canine was not fully erupted at the time of the first picture, but still prevented his mouth from fully closing. In the bottom picture his mouth is fully closed, and while the distance between top and bottom gum is the same, his canine is obviously much longer, which the vets said was an excellent sign.











This is the left side of his mouth, and both canines were almost fully erupted at the time of the first picture, and is fully erupted at the second. His canine is clearly outside his gum now, but is still pressing against the gum a bit. But much better!











And this is just Jasper looking extra handsome as we wait in line for a Latte for me and Puppacino for him as a reward for being so well-behaved.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

He is making excellent progress with his teeth....yaaaaaay! And he is really really cute sitting up straight in the shotgun seat, waiting for his treat. Boy is he cute!

Viking Queen


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Looks to me like they are going to clear the gum!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Awesome! I wish I had known about doing this when Timi's teeth were coming in - might have saved her from having that tooth pulled ?


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

*Final Update*

Jasper is all clear! His occlusion is now within normal range, and while we have a few more weeks of ball therapy to ensure that the teeth don't shift back, otherwise we are done with the dog dentist! 

Today we went back for our third check in. For the past three weeks we've been using a slightly larger ball (for reference started with a rubber chuck-it ball in the small size, and have moved up to a medium chuck-it ball), with 20 minutes total of ball play each day. As I told the vet, there were probably a few days during the holiday that he only got 5 minutes, and some days did not get any at all.

I'm immensely glad that I can conclude this particular health saga thread with good news, especially good news that didn't involve an invasive procedure to fix


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