# What makes a poodle "breeding quality"



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Ever since the discussion the other day about whether or not a dog needed to be a breed Ch. I've been wondering...what does everyone feel makes a dog breeding quality?

For me, I believe a dog/bitch must be the personification of the breed and should be the best representative of that breed you can possibly get your hands on. The animal has to have all 3 things working equally and not fighting one another...if you look at your dog and have to say _"well her temperament is what makes her worth breeding"_ or _"Well...her sire threw some SA BUT..."_ or _"She's beautiful...but she did just get diagnosed with fair hips..."_ then you shouldn't be breeding that animal. One shouldn't be sacrificed for the other 2, there are healthy conformationally sound and intelligent sweet dogs out there you just have to look for them!

Then I think titles come into play, I will only ever breed a dog that has a title...quote me and check back in 20yrs ;D I feel it shows so much faith behind a breeders dog when they take the time and effort and money to have a title obtained on their dog whether its a Conformation title or an agility/obedience title (my opinion of Rally titles at this point are pretty low...and don't get me started on breeders claiming CGC's are titles...haha)

As I said and believe you should obtain the BEST dog/bitch you possibly can the first time around...don't start with crap and expect gold

What do you expect of a breeder, or as a breeder what do you expect from the animals you breed?

(Not saying all fair hips shouldn't be bred...its just MY opinion that we're breeding to BETTER the breed so I'd never breed a bitch with fair hips or to a male with fair hips... just because its passing doesn't mean its worth using...no body brags about getting a D on a test ;D)


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I agree that for the good of the breed the best representatives should be chosen. I also think breed diversity must be considered and obscure blood lines should not be lost so I might losen up on an abstract perception of the ideal dog to contribute to genetic diversity. I like to see performance titles as well as conformation. I am not confident that the winner in an AKC ring is always the best dog. It is often the best groomed dog with the right handler and training. I would like to see conformation pared with performance. I consider that important as well as good socialization and immaculate care of the puppiesI do not expect the breeder to be personable or even communicate that well with me. I do expect them to be honest with me. The Aussie breeder told me she was disappointed with my dog. He was suppose to be show quality but his pasterns were a little too long and because of this she never bred him. In every other respect he was an outstanding dog. I definately would pass on a breeder who mated a bitch with fair hips to a male with fair hips. No dog is perfect but that pairing would be foolish.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I have no problem with fair hips being bred. Of course, we all want excellent bred to excellent, but fair hips are considered normal and a passing score by OFA. I don't like the idea of excluding an otherwise good dog out of the gene pool because of fair hips at all. Personally, though, I do not want to see fair bred to fair. I'd prefer fair bred to excellent. In fact, of all the health issues that can occur, hips concern me less than others because a) it is reasonably possible to breed away from it by breeding only those with passing hip scores, and b) while a dog with hip issues may (or may not) have quality of life reduced, this will not kill them. Things like bloat, addisons, JRD, are much scarier to me. It seems with pedigrees its not if health issues are present, but which.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I think it will always be a subjective discussion because personality or temperament is foremost to me, but the vessel that carries the personality is important too for longevity  So a good solid structure with a beautiful gait is what I look for; if I were ever to breed I would look for the best darn dog money could buy, in this country or another one. A long waiting list or a steep purchase price should not be a deterrant when looking for a key component of a breeding program, in my opinion. Because it's so true that the only reason to breed is to better the breed! Then when the time came, I would look to breed to dogs that were excellent where my dog was only fair. And I would only breed champion to champion...other titles are good too! But it has to start with conformation. In my opinion!!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

As different people have different requirements, I wouldn't say there was much as a general specification. Mostly, belonging to a breeder who takes responsibility for what they produce and is prepared to research the market beforehand and study enough to know what they will produce and how this will fit into it.

Re. hips, Addison's etc. A dog with Addison's can live a normal life with medication. If the dog is insured, the insurance company will pay for it. A dog with hip dysplasia will struggle increasingly as it gets older and its compromised joints become arthritic. Dysplastic dogs frequently are euthanised later in life because their life quality deteriorates as their mobility becomes hindered (and their owner's life quality does also as the dogs frequently become unable to get outside fast enough when they need to relieve themselves). My spouse's family had a dysplastic dog with arthritis, and she ended up living outside in a stable, because she would have diarrhoea and wet herself in the house.

That said, hip dysplasia may have a genetic component, but research suggests it depends on other factors as well. My pup came from parents who had been bred before, and some of their previous offspring had gone to breeding homes and been hip scored also, so I looked up the BVA scores of various relatives, and they were all over the place. There wasn't anyone I found with hips that were in the dysplastic range, but some dogs had mediocre scores that translate to 'fair' in the American system, and others had very good scores. In particular, my pup has two half-siblings from the same litter. One has a hip score that translates to 'excellent' in the American system. The other's score translates to 'fair'.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Since I am not a breeder, but owner, what standard or miniature lines seem to be the most popular considering health and temperament?
I understand coi, and that too much line breeding may not be good, but what do you all consider the great breeding lines? And what did or do they bring to the table?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

While HD can be cauused by enviromental factors, it is undoubtably an inherited disorder...and from the studies that I've read on the subject its usually a predisposition to HD that causes a dog to develop HD from an "injury"...but like any school of thought you can find just about any article to argue in your favour...especially when it comes to breeding a dog that has been diagnosed with mild dysplasia ;D

I only used fair hips as an example you can insert any poodle related illness into that sentence, for me fair hips are a deal breaker I personally wouldn't breed, or purchase a puppy from a dog with fair hips...thats ME and I don't expect everyone to subscribe to that. The point i was trying to make with that thought is that if your dog doesn't have all 3 things why do you feel it should be bred?

i see so many people breeding pet quality dogs, with coarse ugly heads, tails coming out of their as*es and absolutely NO chest (or poorly constructed fronts, that couldn't achieve even the basic levels of agility let alone the things poodles are SUPPOSED to do like swimming and retrieving!) yet these people who are so blind they can't see the issues in thier own dogs feel they have the ability to critique the dogs in the show ring...its laughable really. 

I guess my real question is to breeders...what makes you feel that YOU have what it takes to breed.

I feel i'll make a decent breeder, because i have the ability to be impartial when it comes to my dogs...i have a bitch who fell apart at 6mo...and hasn't come back together at this point (almost 2) if she were in ANYONE elses home she'd have her first mating scheduled already. I don't believe that just because a dog has its genitailia in tact that it should be bred if it isn't the best represenitive of a breed when compared to the breed standard...(thats been in place since the 1930's and was modeled after the KC's standard which was done up in the late 1800's)

also knowledge...i'm fortunate enough to be starting out in the breed at a relatively young age, and i've been even more fortunate to have breeders (from the top kennels in the country) ready and willing to share their knowledge with me. I can recite the breed standard in my sleep, and I know what a correct dog feels like...still learning how to place the words i know with what my hands tell me haha but i have time ^_^

P.S. nothing against Fair hips, there are many things that go into deciding whether or not a dog should be bred and if there is a history of amazing hips behind a dog and you feel comfortable making that decision breed ahead...but like i said for me i wouldn't want to breed a dog with fair hips.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

It is wonderful that there are young people willing to learn and wonderful there is mentorship available to them. The torch will be passed on one day, so good that the torch bearers will be people who have been in good hands. I love to see breeders like Paragon who have children interested in breeding, kids who hopefully in the not too distant future will be carrying on their parent's legacy.

In my opinion it takes many things to make a dog worthy of breeding. Could be their health testing is out of this world. Put that with a great rear, pretty head, wonderful topline, good eye shape, nice feet, good bite...you get the point... The things a breeder might not be nuts about in their dog? Well hopefully they will find a mate who can help correct those things with each subsequent generation seeing more improvements made.

Pedigree is another factor. A breeder might like a dog because it has some dogs behind it who they'd love to add to their line. There might be ancestors behind a dog you'd like to breed to who you want to add to your line because of the lovely puppies you have seen produced by it, or you might know of a dog who has been bred relatively often who has to date produced few if any health issues.

Diversity is another thing. There are so many wickedly inbred dogs out there, particularly in dogs of colour, that is has gotten to the point of being terrifying. Paragon and I had a chat on the phone two days ago about just that. The people who spend an incredible amount of time researching the health of this breed, people like Mary Jane Weir and Darla Dehlin (yaddaluvpoodles here on the forum) know too well what a slippery slope this breed is on. There are people all over the world looking for the last of a line...dogs whose Wycliffe influence is low, whose ancestors don't show up time and time and time again in most of the pedigrees today. Dogs who might have a course head, a poor chest or a tail coming out of its rectum, but whose pedigree is so diverse, it gives us hope for the future of the breed.

And if it matters to an individual, low COI. We are personally trying to keep COI's as low as possible. Under 7% is our ideal. I hope to never breed a litter over 10%. 

It would be wonderful to see only champions bred to champions, but some of the winningest dogs of our time have some of the scariest pedigrees. And with them being so in demand, we are teetering on new bottlenecks and no diversity. I know, thanks to tools like PHR, why some of the Spoos of yesteryear, some that I grew up with, lived to be nine while others lived to be seventeen. And I hope never to repeat those mistakes. The first home bred champion my Mother had had one of the most diverse pedigrees I have seen. He came ahead of the Wycliffe bottleneck, and he lived to be nearly 17. There is a reason for that in my opinion.


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

If I were a dog breeder, and I am not and do not intend to become one, there are probably two main rules I would follow.

1) The female is the most important temperament-wise. She spends the time with the puppies and she is the first example of correct behaviour that they see. I would never breed a female with less than a 'bullet-proof' temperament.

2) Taking a lesson from livestock/horse breeders: The background of the dog to be bred is in general more important than the dog itself (barring a heritable health issue presenting itself). 

As an example, we once owned a very elegantly put-together stallion sired by a coarsely-featured, forward-headed stud that tended to throw forward-headed offspring. I would have never bred to our horse even though by looking at him and knowing him he was nearly perfect. Gorgeous, coal-black (unusual and desirable color in this breed), excellent temperament (I rode/drove/lunged him as a child), talented, and game, too. A bit on the small side, but stallions frequently are. We eventually sold him, and the lady we sold him to decided to breed him when he was finished with his show career. Every colt or filly that stud threw was as coarse and forward-headed if not worse than their grand-sire. Anyone breeding to our old stud should have guessed what he would throw. It was a miracle that he himself turned out as he did.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Ever since the discussion the other day about whether or not a dog needed to be a breed Ch. I've been wondering...what does everyone feel makes a dog breeding quality?
> 
> For me, I believe a dog/bitch must be the personification of the breed and should be the best representative of that breed you can possibly get your hands on.
> 
> ...


Dear Keithsomething;

Another great thread!

My opinion is very close to yours. I want a poodle that is *as close as possible to the breed standard*. Now here is where it gets a bit tricky tho because *who decides* what the *best representative* of the *breed is*? One way to decide this is ask a judge for his or her opinion/judgement or belief. Now this way sounds good but what judge to believe? The ones in Canada, US, England, Germany............This is a *subjective* value. 

Subjective information is one person's *opinion*. It can be based on fact, but it is *one person's interpretation of that fact*. 

There are two types of *observations*, subjective and objective. Well there are more but these are the ones I am talking about.

'You are tall' is *subjective*
You are 6'5" is *objective*'

From the Canadian Breed Standard:
_General Appearance, Carriage and Condition_
_That of a very active, gay, intelligent, smart and elegant-looking dog, squarely built, well proportioned carrying himself proudly_. 
Which words are *subjective *- active, gay, intelligent, smart, elegant-looking, well proportioned, proud.
Which word is *objective* - just square.

Those breed standard words leave *alot to the imagination*. My idea of active may be your idea of off the wall busy. What does smart even mean?

When you say you will only breed a dog that has a title what would you do if your bitch was sitting at 9 points after her first two days of conformation showing and she was attacked by another dog and will never be 100% sound again. Not breed her because she is not titled? Or what if she breaks a tooth?

When it comes to breeding a poodle with fair hips what you need to remember in *over 40 years of hip x-ray testing* we have *not removed the risk* of producing hip dysplasia. You may want to think an excellent to excellent will always produce good hipped offspring but I have *talked to the breeders* that have produced *hip dysplasia* from two excellent dogs. 

As a breeder I want to know as much as I can about *the background of the poodle*. What hip rating does the sibling have, parents, aunts and uncles. In Canada when the Ontario Veterinarian College rated hip x-rays there was only pass and fail. I liked this way better. I have never bred a dog that did not pass hip x-rays but who knows what the future holds. A *DNA test* may come available *that could clear dogs* who were diagnosed *with mild hip dysplasia* and then I could bred that poodle!

From Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
Do not *ignore* the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still *within normal limits*. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a *strong hip background* and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect.

Now after all my rambling I'll tell ya the FIRST thing I want is *proper poodle temperament*. SECOND I want a poodle that has *good health testing results* out of parents who have not bloated, didn't produce epilepsy or have poor hearts etc.. My THIRD priority is conformation - I want a poodle that can still do all the tasks I set before it-maybe a groundhog dog or a tracker or maybe just a good companion.

I have seen some butt ugly dogs finished as poodle champions. I will not breed a poodle I ever think is ugly but I prefer a poodle with what I call correct angulation. I am not fond of back feet 6 inches behind the pin bones or shoulder that are so far forward the dogs nose is equal with its front toes. If I have my *first three priorities* I could not give a da*n about tailset or coat colour - they are just bonuses!

Back to watching my babies now!


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Arreau,

You are correct, we are in a new bottlekneck. The past is coming back to haunt us in SPADES. Diverse Poodles from old kennels are dropping off the map like flies, in record time! Media is spreading popular sire sindrome to new heights, and who knows if our beloved breed will come out OK and healthy. 

We need to give a bit for diverse pedigrees. Their owners are often older with a closed population with a higher COI than we would like. They do sometimes have the big bonus of a lowe Wyclifffe though. Just think, in many of our guys, an ANCESTER from 6 generations back has more influence than the PARENTS on a pup! 

These guys are sometimes not as pretty looking like what we see in the ring... So what! Conformation is not the only job of our Poodles.. I want a nose, retrieving ability, swimming, attention span... They need to fit into the breed standard, moderate, and not be extreme.

We can breed back pretty, or breed to pretty. We can't get back what they have once it is lost. The breed will be weaker without them!

I do hope the kids will carry on! The hardest core Terrier girl admitted, she really is a Poodle person after all!

Paragon


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Paragon said:


> Arreau,
> 
> You are correct, we are in a new bottlekneck. The past is coming back to haunt us in SPADES. Diverse Poodles from old kennels are dropping off the map like flies, in record time! Media is spreading popular sire sindrome to new heights, and who knows if our beloved breed will come out OK and healthy.
> 
> ...


 This is exactly how I feel!! If we only breed the best to the best, eventually everyone will be related. It's already happening. I want to be able to have a healthy poodle when I'm 40 or 50.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Rayah, I LOVED your post and agree for the most part. I don't entirely understand making priorities when it comes to breeding...why not want and GET everything? I don't know Link or her temperament but she seems to be a lovely example of the breed so you have that going and from what you're saying her temperament and health must also be nice. I think we're saying the same thing basically...I just hate seeing people say they'd give conformation/structure/type up for temperament or any other aspect when it should ALL factor in

Diversity, I am all about diversity. A member of this forum has one of the most beautiful whites I have seen, and he happens to have one of the most diverse white pedigree alive today! He will be an amazing asset to the white poodle...but he isn't ugly and coarse and of the "old style" hes a fancy dog balanced and beautiful coming from a line of healthy dogs. THIS is what I call true diversity obtaining a dog with beauty, brains, and health!

I won't ever sacrifice one thing for the other and it saddens me that breeders that have been involved with the breed far longer than I feel they must

...bringing up COI's and wycliffe -insert eye rolling emoticon- I can point out 4 WHOLE kennels of dogs where their dogs have been linebred extensively and they still live to be 12-15yrs old...personally I don't put any weight behind low COI's and the wycliffe bottleneck. Funny how her dogs were so popular and cherished by breeders but as soon as she passed away EVERY issue known to poodles were thrown at her door step


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

mom24doggies said:


> This is exactly how I feel!! If we only breed the best to the best, eventually everyone will be related. It's already happening. I want to be able to have a healthy poodle when I'm 40 or 50.


Find a good breeder and you will ;D I can name dozens of "show" breeders that produce long living healthy pups without having their dogs look like labs with curly coats ;D


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Kiethomething, 

You aren't listening... You don't have to have one or the other. I want it all too! We do show... My avitar is of my diverse poodle winning a Group3, Owner handled, groomed, conditioned. Heck, it was one of my hubby's first shows handling. 

I want beautiful diverse Poodles that are healthy. Why do you think we took so long to breed our boy? If you study breedings long enough, you will understand the risks in every breeding,. You have to be willing to be responsible for health issues that are in each line, and try to breed away from this.

Diverse poodles must still meet the Breed Standard, not one person's interpretation of it. Part of it is temperment. Without it they would be dogs! I want poodles to be here to share with my great-granbabies!

Paragon


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> Find a good breeder and you will ;D I can name dozens of "show" breeders that produce long living healthy pups without having their dogs look like labs with curly coats ;D


 I realize that, but that's here and now....if the amount of linebreeding that happens continues I won't be able to find a healthy poodle in 20 or 30 yrs. Honestly though I think great efforts are being put into finding and keeping the genetic diversity now that these issues are being realized and it will save our beloved poodle.  

IMO, sometimes minor sacrifices have to be made in order to keep the health of the breed intact. Does a low tail set, slightly coarser head, or high ears affect a dog's temperament, health, or ability to work? Not to my knowledge! Even some bigger faults don't necessarily affect the dog's health and soundness. If I had a dog with minor faults like what I listed who had a great temperament, was sound and healthy, and had a good pedigree, I most certainly would use it despite the fact that a few things were off conformationally and perhaps made it not as attractive to my eye. To me health and temperament are more important than conformation. After all, what good does a pretty dog do if no one can handle it or it passes after only a few years?! 

I get what you are saying though Keithsomething....why settle for less when we can have it all?! The problem with that attitude is that it continuously cuts down on the size of the gene pool, causing big issues later on. Sometimes we need our "pretty but not quite there" dogs, KWIM?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If a dog had fair hips, I would want him or her to be over the age of 5 and showing no signs of any hip issues and I would also like them bred to an excellent, not a good. They would also need to have something else to offer. To me, fair is fair and shouldn't preclude their breeding, but it should be taken into account and a suitable match made. 

Although everyone is using OFA hip because it is far cheaper than a Penn hip, it is very subjective and depends on who is reading the film. Penn hip is a better test, but I understand wanting to save several hundred dollars unless it is a male expected to sire several litters. I would want a Penn hip on him. 

Titling is nice, but if you can look beyond a title and evaluate the dog standing right in front of you, you may get better results. There is so much going on in poodle showing besides picking the correct conformation. You can't tell a whole lot about temperament in those few minutes other than basic 'is the dog shy'. You can't test intelligence in that time. Heck they can't even tell if a dog is dyed. The dam is just as important as the sire, too. Often the dam will not be titled because it is easier to finish a male than a female. 

If Keith wants to only breed show winner to show winner, then that is what he should do. We need those people, too. I just wish he would not think that is the ONLY right thing to do. At some point, maybe 20 years from now, he might actually go looking for something different and remember this conversation- or maybe not. The trouble with breeding same to same all the time is you lose diversity. On the flip side, if everybody breeds for the most diversity they can get, we will lose the look of the type of dog Keith prefers and we don't want to do that, either. 

Show people think others are messing up the breed and not worthy. Others think show people are messing up the breed causing all sorts of issues. We need both schools of thought and we need them to get off each others backs.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Although everyone is using OFA hip because it is far cheaper than a Penn hip, it is very subjective and depends on who is reading the film. Penn hip is a better test, but I understand wanting to save several hundred dollars unless it is a male expected to sire several litters. I would want a Penn hip on him.


1. I disagree. Everyone does not use OFA over Pennhip because it is cheaper. There are valid reasons for choosing OFA over Pennhip. Similarly, there are valid reasons for choosing Pennhip over OFA. 

2. Pennhip is not a better test. That is a subjective comment. What they measure is different and it is difficult to compare the two measures. It is apples and oranges.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Outwest,

I prefer the OFA. I have reasons and experience behind it. When they do Pen-Hip the dog must go under anethstesia, a risk in of itself. I have had a bad experience in this in one of the beautiful girls we had in the past. Back then they put dogs under for OFA hips. Something went horribly wrong! She survived for 18 years, but became epiletic. No trace of it in the lines. The family was shut down... I know that the things used have changed some, but it is still a risk.

OFA can be done while the dog is awake with a patient vet tech. I prefer to mess as little as possible with my dog's immune system. It all adds up in a heath, longievity study. Number of immunizations, types, how close, X-Rays, chemical exposure(<<<Hair Spray>>), times anethstetized. I prefer to limit detrimental exposure. It is one piece of the puzzle.

I also like to "feel" the backend for soundness. A fair can still be sound into their teens. I have seen Excellents lame by 8 (Another breed I won't go there). It is nice to use a boy who has aged out a bit. Test results can be fudged, the dog in front of you is what you are working with...

Paragon


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> 1. I disagree. Everyone does not use OFA over Pennhip because it is cheaper. There are valid reasons for choosing OFA over Pennhip. Similarly, there are valid reasons for choosing Pennhip over OFA.
> 
> 2. Pennhip is not a better test. That is a subjective comment. What they measure is different and it is difficult to compare the two measures. It is apples and oranges.


A penn hip is a strict measurement. OFA depends on the eyes looking at the film. I disagree.I also agree with not doing anesthesia unnecessarily. I will say my vet ripped me a new one when he asked for the tests results of my new puppies sire and dam because the sire only had an OFA (dam has both). He said the OFA is not as good a test and that they proved that by submitting the same film to two different readers and then waited 6 months and resubmitted them to those same readers. The readings varied. I may be coming from that perspective when I talk about OFA hip, but I, too, don't want to sedate any more than necessary, if at all. I drove an hour away to find someone to do an OFA hip without sedation on Bonnie. I still think a sire who will be used frequently should have a Penn hip done. 

I will search for the study he is talking about. If I find it, I will post it.

edit: found lots of studies saying one was better than the other, but not the study he is referring to. I will ask him and post it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with others here. OFA and Pennhip are just different. When films are sent to OFA three vets look at them to certify. To my knowledge, majority rules. If two of three say fair, they're fair. If two of three say good, they're good.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> When it comes to breeding a poodle with fair hips what you need to remember in *over 40 years of hip x-ray testing* we have *not removed the risk* of producing hip dysplasia. You may want to think an excellent to excellent will always produce good hipped offspring but I have *talked to the breeders* that have produced *hip dysplasia* from two excellent dogs.


Rayah, you might be interested in reading this study I found when searching for another one. It does say hips are improving. 

Update of a Retrospective Cohort Study of Changes in Hip Joint Phenotype of Dogs Evaluated by the OFA in the United States, 1989–2003 - KANEENE - 2009 - Veterinary Surgery - Wiley Online Library


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

What my time has shown me, breeding other species of animals, is that before you start breeding it's all judgements and statements: "Why do THEY?" "I will NEVER..." Once you begin breeding, it turns into all shades of gray. "I have a dog with fair hips, but man, he's got awesome type, so much instinct it's sick, and all his siblings are good..." or "I said I would never breed an unfinished dog, but I can't find majors, she ripped her coat out, and that really bad experience made her hate showing, settling for 5 points might be enough" and on and on. 

I may ask a dog breeder why they felt this was the best match, but I will not judge their decisions. Because there is nothing more heartbreaking, hard, challenging, time consuming, and difficult than running a breeding program trying to improve a breed. 

Keith I read your posts, and I realize you want it all, what you need to realize is all reputable breeders want it all. They aren't settling, though they might be kennel blind. What happens is while breeding can be analytical, it's also artistic, and you have no idea what going to happen until you actually start breeding. 

My personal opinion on what I look for in a breeder is:

Clear vision, of what they're doing.

Dogs with a great temperament.

Dog with outstanding instinct.

Health testing, and KNOWLEDGE of the pedigree.

Showing their dogs to prove their worth in a venue.

The reason that is last: I would rather buy a puppy from a dog who is untitled because the owner lacks the time, money, or proximity to showing, yet who exhibits the correct structure, and instinct for a poodle, that one who is mediocre at best, yet the owner has put a bunch of time and handler on the dog to finish. Happens all the time.

I guess my answer to the post, what makes an animal breeding quality, is that the owner and person putting the time and money into the breeding thinks it is going to help their line.


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

could someone bring me up to date with the 'Wycliffe bottleneck' - is there a website that will show it succinctly?

I've been putting a huge amount of thought recently into what I'm looking for in my next poodle.. I've come to the conclusion I will try to import from eastern europe - looking at some of the Czech and German lines there seems to be alot of breeding for dogs that title in obedience and agility among other things.
BUT.. having seen you mentioning the bottleneck.. is this a worldwide phenomenom? would it be spread as far as eastern europe?


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Leooonie said:


> I've been putting a huge amount of thought recently into what I'm looking for in my next poodle.. I've come to the conclusion I will try to import from eastern europe - looking at some of the Czech and German lines there seems to be alot of breeding for dogs that title in obedience and agility among other things.


Me too. I'm trying to figure out where to look for these European dogs to bring one in country.

I'm curious why, when it comes to breeding, we don't see more discussion about the work, and related things that this breed can do and perpetuating those aspects? Shouldn't that be a factor? Obviously, the health and structure of the dog are critical to this, but a dog can be healthy and sound, and be worthless when it comes to a job or activity.

This has been a real point of frustration for me. I really want a high quality standard from proven working lines, but have been continually stone walled here in the US. Maybe I'm just looking in the wrong places, but the vast majority of breeders I've been in touch with bristle at the thought of one of their dogs doing work. They treat it as a complete waste of a show dog.

The goal for my next poodle is to develop it as a disaster dog to search for people trapped in debris after things like earthquakes, etc. This will require a special dog that is strong, confident, drivey and highly capable. In theory, the breed is perfect for this sort of work. It's extreme intelligence makes it capable of working independently from the handler. Also, their love of people works out to be a reward for the dog in and of itself. 

If I can't find a good source, I'll be relegated to working a boarder collie, which is okay, but my heart really lies with poodles.

Greg


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Leooonie said:


> could someone bring me up to date with the 'Wycliffe bottleneck' - is there a website that will show it succinctly?


Start here this is Dr. John Armstrongs Canine Diversity - The Wycliffe Kennel Era The Wycliffe Kennel

You will need to click all the blue links to read the whole story.

I would also like to take this opportunity to remind the breeders on this site you must go back more than 10 generations to see the Wycliffe influence.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Leooonie said:


> could someone bring me up to date with the 'Wycliffe bottleneck' - is there a website that will show it succinctly?
> 
> I've been putting a huge amount of thought recently into what I'm looking for in my next poodle.. I've come to the conclusion I will try to import from eastern europe - looking at some of the Czech and German lines there seems to be alot of breeding for dogs that title in obedience and agility among other things.
> BUT.. having seen you mentioning the bottleneck.. is this a worldwide phenomenom? would it be spread as far as eastern europe?


To add to Rayah's advice, you can also see the Wycliffe influence of any given poodle by searching for it on Poodle Health Registry Database. The Wycliffe influence is shown as a percentage in the top left corner of the pedigree.

And good for you for wanting to help keep diverse lines alive. 

Low Wycliffe dogs -- there are a few sources of them. Most of the dogs with unusual pedigrees I have found in Russia and Germany have missing ancestors, so it's not possible to say with certainty at the current time that they definitely are low Wycliffe without more information. I am looking for stuff in Russia and holding out hope that there might be an untapped reservoir of diversity there based on the premise that Russia and the USA were involved in a cold war around the time of the Wycliffe bottleneck and probably wouldn't have imported dogs from there for that reason. The ones I currently know of that are bona fide low Wycliffe are as follows:

Old English apricot lines -- these tend to bottleneck on Vulcan Golden Light and his son Alpenden Golden Sand instead, and from what I notice seem to experience similar issues.

Red lines -- based on old English apricots and the Palmares/Shangri-La outcross, and tend to bottleneck on both.

Canen lines -- a now dead kennel that was founded mostly on three old English lines. Very few dogs of the pure core line left in the world. No bottleneck, but insufficient unrelated individuals to continue the line.

Kleinpudels -- smaller standard poodles in FCI countries. At 14-18 inches, they overlap with minis, and their genetic pool tends to derive more from these origins.

Often when I'm searching for diverse poodles, I feel down about what's already been lost and will never be recovered. Sometimes I think perhaps I ought to give up and let the show people have at it. I consider getting a Border Collie instead (similar personality to a poodle, would fit my lifestyle) or minis. Then I remember minis are too small, and Border Collies have smelly coats, and I chose standard poodles because these are the dogs for me. It's nice to see grand dogs at a show, and show breeders should absolutely be able to breed the dogs they want, but I don't think showing is entitled to a monopoly on what the breed should be.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

sarpoodle said:


> Me too. I'm trying to figure out where to look for these European dogs to bring one in country.
> 
> I'm curious why, when it comes to breeding, we don't see more discussion about the work, and related things that this breed can do and perpetuating those aspects? Shouldn't that be a factor? Obviously, the health and structure of the dog are critical to this, but a dog can be healthy and sound, and be worthless when it comes to a job or activity.
> 
> ...


My breeder has a litter right now with the same general breeding as my Bonnie, but will be larger in sire. They are 12.5% mini, but dam is 21.5 inches tall, sire is 25 inches. I have seen and interacted with them and they are not small. Sire is Belgium background from the old Belcanto kennel. Lot of problems with that breeder and she had her dogs removed, but the dogs themselves were incredibly smart, healthy working types. They are all females, though. Not sure is any still available. I looked at this litter when choosing my new puppy, but decided I already had a working type, super smart standard (she is 22 inches) and went with the typical show style litter instead (just for some fun and variety). 

Breeder does not do working titles with the dogs, but people buy them and do all the time. One is currently accepted and thriving in the sea world show in San Diego- such an intelligent line! Bonnie is smartest most athletic dog I've ever had, but is also a bit more work than most and I must keep her busy and working or she isn't happy. 

They are out there.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Sarpoodle,

PM me, and we can talk working Poodles!... It can be done! Poodles can do it all! I don't want a "Pretty poodle" with no brain.... You don't have to look anywhere else than Poodles!....We might be a bit of a stretch for you, but there are people out there who can get you what you need. This is where Diverse Poodles come in!

Paragon


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Paragon said:


> Sarpoodle,
> 
> PM me, and we can talk working Poodles!... It can be done! Poodles can do it all! I don't want a "Pretty poodle" with no brain.... You don't have to look anywhere else than Poodles!....We might be a bit of a stretch for you, but there are people out there who can get you what you need. This is where Diverse Poodles come in!
> 
> Paragon


Yes, they are out there. There is a big difference between the working types and the show types, no matter what anybody tries to tell me. Some say, "Oh, you can do that with any poodle." But, you can't. A working poodle looks to work just like the Border Collies do. My Bonnie's eyes twitch at me looking for direction. She is snappy and instantly obedient, keeps up with my whippet amazingly well yet, she is a poodle through and through. My new puppy is 10 weeks old. I can tell you there is a huge difference between his elegant sweet self and my working type poodle and it is clearly evident even at this very young age. If I didn't have one of each type, I would believe it myself. 

Maybe you can see the snappiness in the eyes and how she is completely in tune to me. Pay no attention to that gay tail. LOL. You can see she is slightly smaller, slighter shorter legged and muscular. She is even more muscular now at 19 moonths old. Here she is just 12 months old:





I like this picture of her because it shows how happy she always is and the control she has of her body









She has siblings doing very well in agility and other sports. 
Don't give up Sarpoodle!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Yes, they are out there. There is a big difference between the working types and the show types, no matter what anybody tries to tell me. Some say, "Oh, you can do that with any poodle." But, you can't. A working poodle looks to work just like the Border Collies do.


I honestly do not understand why you continually say this. If your opinion were factual, why would there be Champion poodles with good working temperaments and with multiple titles on both ends?

Perfect example - I adore this dog's structure and I hear he's got a great working temperament. He's clearly capable of swimming and retrieving, too! And look, he was even a puppy champion!!! Oh, and he's got quite a few titles including a tracking championship, herding instinct certified, Rally Advanced, and Companion Dog Obedience title http://gardenpathschpannoviaschasinghearts.blogspot.com/

There are many other breeders who are producing poodles capable of earning both conformation titles in AKC/CKC and are capable of earning titles in tracking, obedience, agility, hunting, rally, etc. 

There are other show breeders who do not breed for this. And that is not necessarily a problem. Many pet owners do not necessarily want a poodle with high working drive. This is why it is important to do research and choose a dog from a line that is known for producing dogs with the type of temperament that you (general you) are interested in.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I honestly do not understand why you continually say this. If your opinion were factual, why would there be Champion poodles with good working temperaments and with multiple titles on both ends?


I don't think you'll ever understand and that's okay, too. If you know of such dogs, please share with Sarpoodle.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> I don't think you'll ever understand and that's okay, too. If you know of such dogs, please share with Sarpoodle.


Don't you have a better response than that, Outwest? I truly honestly am curious what your thoughts are on the fact that standard poodles are bred and earn AKC/CKC conformation championships as well as performance championships (this takes a lot more work than "just" a performance title) on one end of their name and multiple performance titles on the other end of their name. 

In what way does this suggest that show poodle and working poodle cannot be one and the same?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I already did, Outwest, and I was hoping to get some feedback from you on that dog. Maybe you skimmed my post too quickly and responded with what read to me as slight hostility instead of taking the time to look at the information that i provided?

In that post, I provided a link to the page of a dog with excellent working temperament and multiple performance titles, including a tracking championship, which certainly is of great interest to Sarpoodle.

ADDING: I am not so sure that I agree with Outwest that a working poodle and a border collie will look for work in the same way. This seems to imply to me that Outwest thinks they would have similar personalities or working drives. While there may be similarities, a border collie was initially bred for a different type of work from a poodle.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thank you for helping Sarpoodle with an idea for a good working dog for him. I know there has got to be some out there that meet everything. 

The border collie will always be the quintessential working dog. Their personalities are different. Border Collies think for themselves more than the biddable, wanting to please, poodles. The intensity should be near the same for a good working poodle and border collie, though. 

I think show poodle and working poodle can be the same, they just usually aren't. A working body doesn't look or react the same as a show body. It's like comparing the Olympic runners to ballet dancers. Both are athletic, but in different ways. Working bodies are fast, muscular and agile like a runner jumping over hurdles. Show bodies are beautiful and very elegant like a ballet dancer.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Hello Outwest,

Try Susan Fraser's Bibelot dogs, or something out of Cherie's mom's old Cherod line.... These are dogs that really can do it all! They have been proven for well over 50 years!

BTW I had a friend who's parents bred working Borders forever, not sure if they are still at it, but they still have the sheep.... They are totally DIFFERENT! Intelligent yes, Poodle like intelligence... NO WAY!

Princie is a dream revisited... The pups are getting ready to give a go at the world! I have Conformation prospects, Service dogs, Therapy dog prospects, Hunting prospects. Give us a job, and we can do it beautifully in SILVER! 


There are other capable lines out there too... It doesn't have to be one or the other....


Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

But don't you find in this day and age that sadly it usually is one way or the other. I have been told several times that Journey would kick some serious butt in UKC because she is super sturdy and substantial and Spoos are shown in the Gun Dog class there. How she will do in CKC sanctioned shows is yet to be seen. If some of the judges are old timers, they will love her. Younger judges are used to the snipier heads we see today, and unless they dig a remarkable chest and rear, will likely not give her a second glance. She to me looks like a working dog.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It doesn't have to be one or the other and it should not be one or the other. You should have a variety of talents in each litter. But, I agree with Arreau, it is sadly often one or the other. The breeders of each type tend to breed for the one thing. 

Thank goodness there are some breeders who will try for both and if you are doing that in silver Paragon YAY! You will give something up here or there. It is a total balancing act. I think my Bonnie needs more elegance. Jazz is starting to come together physically with his legs and exercise, but is he going to be as agile? Not sure about that. 

And, Bonnie did kick butt in UKC to the chagrin of Jazzy style poodles. She is substantial for a girl and could charge in the water and carry a duck. She has the shoulder and thigh muscles. Journey in her pictures looks a lot more muscular with more bone than many poodles. I can't wait to hear how she is received- a red, substantial girl with a full tail. Talk about an underdog! But, she has the legs and they have got to see her beauty. That's evident in all her photos. 

Maybe the reason London has done so well is that he also has a lot of muscle and strength, yet also has the elegance.


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Perfect example - I adore this dog's structure and I hear he's got a great working temperament. He's clearly capable of swimming and retrieving, too! And look, he was even a puppy champion!!! Oh, and he's got quite a few titles including a tracking championship, herding instinct certified, Rally Advanced, and Companion Dog Obedience title GARDENPATH STANDARD POODLES





outwest said:


> Thank you for helping Sarpoodle with an idea for a good working dog for him. I know there has got to be some out there that meet everything.


That's for the link to Renee's site. I was actually in touch with her already back in May. She does understand working dogs having grown up around them; her Dad bred working GSD's. Renee says she is planning a litter next year, and gives priority to working homes. This has been a solid lead, and her Chase and Nina sound like an excellent pair from which to produce true, working poodles. Fingers crossed on this one, but still keeping my eyes open for other sources. So far, I haven't encountered anything like this in the US as of yet.

Greg


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

CharistmaticMillie,

I went to the site, and had a peek. Fun Stuff... There was part of their clip with my daughter handling my boy a few years back.... Thank goodness my grooming is moving into this century.....

Gardenpath breeds Versitile Poodles. They win too.. Keep out of the politics at shows. Life is better that way. At the end of the day, win, or loose, you still have the best Poodle, when they cuddle with you on the couch! 

Paragon


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

*Did someone mention our Daddy?*

TCH CH PANNOVIA'S CHASING HEARTS CGN RA CD HIC(s) VCX ~ "CHASE"
is the sire of my Mimi and Cosi. 9 months old. Beautiful, excellent temperaments, great retrievers, real water dogs. Oh...and spoiled rotten too!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Renee is a lovely woman! Her girl was in the ring the same time Quincy was, and was handled by Chrystal too, so I got to see a lot of her. She is lovely!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

I don't agree that poodles from unusual lines are necessarily better suited to working tasks and lifestyles than are the popular show lines. Although I often hear that argument as justification from people breeding diverse lines, I have never seen any evidence for it, and these people often seem to be trying to produce an abstract appearance based on historical paintings with no actual testing to demonstrate that it is any better. The argument that poodles with unusual pedigrees never get diseases, are never inbred, and always live longer than dogs from the show lines also has little evidence to support it as far as I can see.

IMHO, diversity needs to be preserved simply because it is diverse, and loss of it will result in the long-term overall deterioration of the breed as a whole, and for no other reason.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Zrycona I have never agreed with on of your posts more than this one! My issue with these diverse lines isn't that they're diverse but that no one in the states shows any willingness to show/finish these dogs. It's those arguments that you mentioned that really bothers me...if they are just as well constructed then why aren't they being incorporated by breeders? I know lots of breeders looking for diversity but they shouldn't have to sacrifice type to obtain diversity


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I want to add this description of a poodle I found going through some old threads (man was I pill a few months ago ;D) 

This is from a woman whom I respect so highly in this breed now, she has a CLEAR concise vision of what she wants a poodle to be and doesn't let anyone tell her how she should view things!



> Breed Type:
> 
> I like a Poodle to look like a Poodle. I don't want something that looks like any old curly-coated upland retriever. To that end I want a stylish dog that has an air of distinction. I want my poodle to look fabulous on the end of a leash. This means pretty head, proud head carriage, good length of neck, proud tail carriage, great coat and then the things that go along with any great looking dog: nice angles, good muscle, good bone to size and good clean movement. I know I'm vain, but I LOVE having a great looking dog.
> 
> ...


THAT is the poodle I want, thank you cBrand (Carol Brand of Beauvoir Poodles )


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> Zrycona I have never agreed with on of your posts more than this one! My issue with these diverse lines isn't that they're diverse but that no one in the states shows any willingness to show/finish these dogs. It's those arguments that you mentioned that really bothers me...if they are just as well constructed then why aren't they being incorporated by breeders? I know lots of breeders looking for diversity but they shouldn't have to sacrifice type to obtain diversity


I am glad we agree on this.

If I did ever start breeding, I would do it to preserve dogs from dying lines. I would do as much health testing as I can and do my best to be open and honest with customers, and I would endeavour to select the pups with the best conformation and temperament to keep in my programme so I can gradually improve the line. But I won't pretend that my dogs will be suitable for buyers to take to the show ring if they're serious about doing well there, when I'm starting with stock that obviously isn't what show judges are looking for, and I won't claim they're working dogs if I don't do work with them, or that they won't get diseases when I know that even with the most careful and diligent efforts, dogs are living things and living things can and do go wrong and there's no guarantee of anything of the sort.

If I come to breed my first litter and find I can't sell half the puppies because they are not marketable enough, I will have to spay and neuter everyone and give up, because the welfare of the individual dogs is more important to me than the overall health and survival of the breed.

The breed has enough people breeding show-type dogs and doesn't need me doing that as well. And various medical conditions I suffer with mean I would probably let my dog down if I tried to show it, no matter how great it looked. I don't think the judge would be impressed if I staggered around the ring with a stick beside my elegant dog, and couldn't bend over and stay like that to hold the dog's head and tail in position while it was being examined. Besides, I don't think it's really that much of an achievement if someone takes work already done by someone else and breeds together two dogs who are already nice-looking and produce a nice-looking offspring. For someone to work for several generations with genetic material that is not so obliging and to get something that is worthy to compete against the best of them, that is an achievement worthy of real admiration.


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