# Doesn't get given Japanese style muzzle as i'd like... is this down to his puppy fur?



## KidWhisperer (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't know about Japanese grooming, but I've gotta say Robin is sooooooo adorable!


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

Thankyou KidWhisperer  He knows it too!
Your Sammi is lovely too.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I too know nothing about grooming, or the cut and how it could be done differently, but he is a doll for sure!

I think I might try something like that with little Echo when he gets well.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

These are not poodles, but some have similar coat in the Asian flair style with tight on the face(cheeks) and clean around eyes to make them expressive, and contrast in length and shapes. Round ball ears, oval muzzle. The use of product like isle of dogs really helps on those floppy beards. A stand dryer to get the curl out will help get that plush look. The lines on sides of topknot are wrong. Its too heavy on sides. You want to really layer the muzzle so that its not heavy. The red poodle mix is good example of stubborn coat(first time with me so her coat isn't trained to straighten, it was only crate dried before) plus she wiggled. There is a good video on youtube....


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

I see now that your Pic you gave her has the "helmet" look, versus what I was describing so instead of taking the face so tight/short, she can do that area longer and shorten the muzzle. Its way too long.


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

It looks like she has cut the hair right at the top of the nose. If you let that grow, it should get fluffier and you an get the roundness you want.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

It looks to me like the groomer isn't replicating the cut. Maybe she doesn't know how, the Japanese style is petty new to main-stream grooming, and English instructions are pretty hard to come by! Does she seem excited to get it right for you? If so, I'd stick with her and continue to show her pictures and try to figure out how to make Robin "match". If she doesn't seem to care, is dismissive, or genuinely can't see the difference then she may not be up to the task. I hate to say that without being personally involved, but the truth is some groomers love doing creative and new things, and some just want to do what they know. Or some groomers love terriers, or double-coated dogs, or Poodles, etc, yet aren't as passionate about the other breeds. Nothing wrong with that, we just need to make sure both owner and groomer (and dog!) are a happy team. : )

Now, to be more technical, it looks to me like the there is too much hair left in front of the muzzle. To achieve the desired look around the mouth and nose, I comb all the hair forward and trim anything that comes past the nose/lips. That way it's too short to hang down or get licked in the mouth, and remains much more plush. Also, it looks like the groomer is either cutting into or shaving the sides of the face to create a distinction between the muzzle and head/ears. That doesn't look like the picture you gave her, to me. The sides of the face will need to fill in to create a smooth, round jawline. I would also take about half of the length off the bottom jaw, and create the line from there. It's a bit long and low where it is now. Shorter is perkier. : ) The topknot will take a while to completely blend with the ears. Some of it will have to nearly reach the full length of the ears, so as long as the groomer isn't creating a line there, you may have to just wait for that part. And, yes, the ears could be shorter if you want and that will add to the puff-factor. Once the jawline is higher, the ears can be trimmed to match. 

This is just an explanation so that hopefully you can see the changes that can be made to get Robin looking the way you want. I *don't* suggest giving these instructions to your groomer! That much detail or technical direction from a client could either offend her, or just make her nervous as heck that you won't be happy!! When clients tell me what they want it makes my job easier, when clients tell me e-x-a-c-t-l-y what they want, it makes me a little freaked out that I won't get it right! In other words, no need to micro-manage how she achieves the look, but hopefully my description can help you see the difference between what you want and what you got, and you can better use your own words to describe the changes you want made. : ) I would suggest talking to the groomer now and bringing Robin right in for a tweak. It's very difficult for me to make specific detail changes on a groom when it's already been a month or so and now I'm doing the next groom. If the owner makes their critiques immediately after the groom and I correct it then, it's easier for me to keep that corrected mental picture of the final product for next time. : ) Best of luck!! I love the Japanese styles!!

Oh, and to answer the question; No, I don't think anything about these changes has to do with puppy hair. It *may* have to do with puppy behavior if he's wiggly about having his face trimmed, and that will get better with time and a patient and skilled groomer. : )


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> It looks to me like the groomer isn't replicating the cut. Maybe she doesn't know how, the Japanese style is petty new to main-stream grooming, and English instructions are pretty hard to come by! Does she seem excited to get it right for you? If so, I'd stick with her and continue to show her pictures and try to figure out how to make Robin "match". If she doesn't seem to care, is dismissive, or genuinely can't see the difference then she may not be up to the task. I hate to say that without being personally involved, but the truth is some groomers love doing creative and new things, and some just want to do what they know. Or some groomers love terriers, or double-coated dogs, or Poodles, etc, yet aren't as passionate about the other breeds. Nothing wrong with that, we just need to make sure both owner and groomer (and dog!) are a happy team. : )
> 
> Now, to be more technical, it looks to me like the there is too much hair left in front of the muzzle. To achieve the desired look around the mouth and nose, I comb all the hair forward and trim anything that comes past the nose/lips. That way it's too short to hang down or get licked in the mouth, and remains much more plush. Also, it looks like the groomer is either cutting into or shaving the sides of the face to create a distinction between the muzzle and head/ears. That doesn't look like the picture you gave her, to me. The sides of the face will need to fill in to create a smooth, round jawline. I would also take about half of the length off the bottom jaw, and create the line from there. It's a bit long and low where it is now. Shorter is perkier. : ) The topknot will take a while to completely blend with the ears. Some of it will have to nearly reach the full length of the ears, so as long as the groomer isn't creating a line there, you may have to just wait for that part. And, yes, the ears could be shorter if you want and that will add to the puff-factor. Once the jawline is higher, the ears can be trimmed to match.
> 
> ...



Thankyou PammiPoodle for your help! The groomer is really lovely but it's quite a new place and I genuinely think she doesn't see the difference. I have seen another poodle she has groomed who's owners ask for the asian style and he too ends up with the long moustache (along with all the other dogs with muzzle hair!). 

Usually Robin ends up with a very long moustache (even though I take photos similar to the one above), this time I asked for the muzzle to be shorter and that is what he came back like. His head hair was also long enough to blend into his ears but the groomer cut it short and really defined the ears which is nothing like the photo. There is a more experienced groomer not far from us who actually has 5 poodles of her own which I am thinking of trying, I feel bad but after 4 grooms I would have thought that Robin would look a bit more like I'd asked by now. 

Thanks also for clearing up that it isn't his lack of adult fur causing the moustache!
I would love to be a groomer myself, it seems so challenging and creative!


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

ItzaClip said:


> These are not poodles, but some have similar coat in the Asian flair style with tight on the face(cheeks) and clean around eyes to make them expressive, and contrast in length and shapes. Round ball ears, oval muzzle. The use of product like isle of dogs really helps on those floppy beards. A stand dryer to get the curl out will help get that plush look. The lines on sides of topknot are wrong. Its too heavy on sides. You want to really layer the muzzle so that its not heavy. The red poodle mix is good example of stubborn coat(first time with me so her coat isn't trained to straighten, it was only crate dried before) plus she wiggled. There is a good video on youtube....


Thanks ItzaClip, and what sweet photos! What Isle Of Dogs products would you recommend?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I agree with PammiPoodle, to get that look you'll have to have it taken shorter since the hair is laying flat how it is instead of poofing up at it's full length, if that makes sense?


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I agree with PammiPoodle, to get that look you'll have to have it taken shorter since the hair is laying flat how it is instead of poofing up at it's full length, if that makes sense?


I just had a little go of trimming his muzzle myself, layering the top sections a bit shorter and shortening the bits that hang forward - it looks so much better already! I can see that once the cheeks grow back it'll look great. I have booked him in at the more experienced groomers too for next time.


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

I shortened his ears too, what do you think? 

(sorry for the bad photo, had to use my ipod!)


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Asian style is new to American Groomers. You did a much better job. The bottom jaw needsto be very short, can go as short as a #7, mine I take down with a #4 on the bottom jaw. There is an arch over the nose bridge. I take my cheeks in with a #2 comb. Ears are a personal choice. My poodle I shave the inside of the ears & edge out the shape. Keep practicing, I am trying to decide to blend my TK or to etch in ear lines.

Here are a couple of different Asian styles I am working on.


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

I'd run not walk to am actual poodle groomer they are well worth any added expense!


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

walkies! said:


> I shortened his ears too, what do you think?


I'm not a groomer so can't give you an educated opinion on your work, but I really like what you did with his face.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

walkies! said:


> I shortened his ears too, what do you think?
> 
> (sorry for the bad photo, had to use my ipod!)


I honestly think that looks a lot better...


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

3dogs said:


> Asian style is new to American Groomers. You did a much better job. The bottom jaw needsto be very short, can go as short as a #7, mine I take down with a #4 on the bottom jaw. There is an arch over the nose bridge. I take my cheeks in with a #2 comb. Ears are a personal choice. My poodle I shave the inside of the ears & edge out the shape. Keep practicing, I am trying to decide to blend my TK or to etch in ear lines.
> 
> Here are a couple of different Asian styles I am working on.


It seems it's even newer to UK groomers (well near me atleast!). How do you encourage the hair over the nose bridge? I have been told it's hard to achieve because the hair here wants to separate. Gorgeous styles you're working on there, they look so sweet. 




Minnie said:


> I'd run not walk to am actual poodle groomer they are well worth any added expense!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Haha! I'm glad someone said what I was thinking Minnie, I just feel bad for deserting the current groomers - but I shouldn't if they aren't experienced enough to do what i'd like. Who knows, in a couple of years they will be able to achieve it! Also, the experienced groomer I've found is actually a little CHEAPER than the current place (because the current is marketed as a doggy spa I guess)




caroline429 said:


> I'm not a groomer so can't give you an educated opinion on your work, but I really like what you did with his face.


Thanks Caroline! I'm completely inexperienced but It's surprising what a little scissoring can do - atleast he won't look _so_ bad until his next groom now


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

Lene said:


> I honestly think that looks a lot better...


Thankyou! I know a little bit about hairdressing thanks to my mum so just applied what I know to this - trimmed the ear length, layered them slightly so the ear line isn't so defined (and they look poofier!) and then tried to layer the muzzle too. 
Robin is so wriggly! :bounce:


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

The 2 toy poodles that are red/apricot are under 1 year of age. My Black Abstract is over 2. There is no reason not to get the arch over the nose. The top part has to be fluffed up & then scussored in an arch. Too many groomers comb the hair down & then scissored flat along the lower jaw line.

I will try & get photos this weekend while I am at my grooming competition.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

walkies! said:


> I know a little bit about hairdressing thanks to my mum so just applied what I know to this - trimmed the ear length, layered them slightly so the ear line isn't so defined (and they look poofier!) and then tried to layer the muzzle too.


Wow! I'd say you're more than half way to grooming him yourself. You did such a nice job on his head that I'm sure you'd be able to do a whole clip without much problem. 

I started grooming Cali myself a while ago and I had no experience at all. I'm really pleased with how she looks and I actually get compliments on her clip from strangers!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Just finished Louisa in the Potpourri Class. Our first time in Intermediate we got first place. Went on & treceived a Group 3. Here is her face before & after. Was told the arch was too tight so good yo know next time.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

3dogs said:


> Our first time in Intermediate we got first place. Went on & treceived a Group 3.


Congratulations! :smile:


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

walkies! said:


> Haha! I'm glad someone said what I was thinking Minnie, I just feel bad for deserting the current groomers - but I shouldn't if they aren't experienced enough to do what i'd like. Who knows, in a couple of years they will be able to achieve it! Also, the experienced groomer I've found is actually a little CHEAPER than the current place (because the current is marketed as a doggy spa I


This won't be popular... But in some cases there is a bit too much blame the customer on the boards especially considering that a picture was given and not just give him a puppy cut... Not every groomer is knowledgable or even interested in doing anything more than a basic pet trim. You did a fab job correcting the groom!


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

3dogs said:


> Just finished Louisa in the Potpourri Class. Our first time in Intermediate we got first place. Went on & treceived a Group 3. Here is her face before & after. Was told the arch was too tight so good yo know next time.


Well done, that's fantastic!


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## walkies! (Mar 25, 2013)

caroline429 said:


> Wow! I'd say you're more than half way to grooming him yourself. You did such a nice job on his head that I'm sure you'd be able to do a whole clip without much problem.
> 
> I started grooming Cali myself a while ago and I had no experience at all. I'm really pleased with how she looks and I actually get compliments on her clip from strangers!


Thanks Caroline! All I did was tidy up his bad cut but I might actually pluck up the courage to start grooming him fully, cutting hair is so fun! We'll see how this next cut at the new groomers goes first  
If it doesn't go so well I'll be on here first thing asking for tips!


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