# Article on health testing and breeding



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Interesting article, Streetcar. Thanks for posting.

Natalie Tessier is a poodle breeder who has done a lot of research on poodle genetics and the need for maintaining a broad genetic pool. Her thoughts on health testing are full of interesting insights. Here's what she says (all 5 pages are worth reading):

Testing - it's not obvious - Poodles de Grenier
What do the tests really mean? - Poodles de Grenier
DNA tests & what they tell us - Poodles de Grenier
Phenotypical tests and what they say - Poodles de Grenier
Conclusions about testing - Poodles de Grenier


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Peppersb, thanks for posting this. I have her site bookmarked but had forgotten and want to do more reading there. Thank you you for sharing the links - perfect timing for me .


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I think that this was a line we talked about a few years ago in a diversity thread. Someone wiser than me at the time deemed them fairly distinct... isolated, but I haven't checked their COI or Wycliffe myself. Or if they were touched by Wycliffe at all.

Real French Poodles: Standard Poodles from the Languedoc, South of France

One objection to these at that time was down to conformation... no show quality. Only one of my Fancy friends would know... I sure wouldn't. 

But for Purebred Standard Poodles, with all that we know is already in the breed, some wouldn't care conformationally. They want a Poodle for a pet, or Rally, Obedience, Agility... the list goes on. Has anybody??... would anybody??... consider a sire from an isolated line like this? Never planning to put them in the ring??

How crazy is that idea I wonder...


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

According to the site they have not had a litter in over 5 years....


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

spindledreams said:


> According to the site they have not had a litter in over 5 years....


That may be... but on principle, if you could get a hold of one of their intact dogs... what then? What if you could find genetic diversity in a purebred line from a sire that looked for instance like Tonka? Too tall and too long for the ring. Not at all what you would breed for... but diverse, healthy genes.

Would that be accepted in NA to invigorate certain lines?? I wonder.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

CB, i would say probably. Testing is important, and diversity is important. Low COI is important, and functionality is important. That's why breeders' hearts in the game is important, I am guessing. It's a game of balance, trials, and passion. One has to be open to risks while weighing all the options. Not for the faint of heart!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Countryboy said:


> That may be... but on principle, if you could get a hold of one of their intact dogs... what then? What if you could find genetic diversity in a purebred line from a sire that looked for instance like Tonka? Too tall and too long for the ring. Not at all what you would breed for... but diverse, healthy genes.
> 
> Would that be accepted in NA to invigorate certain lines?? I wonder.


CB -- There is a group of breeders that is very focused on looking for lines of poodles that were not part of the mid century bottleneck -- looking for low Wycliffe and low MCB. They are doing exactly what you suggest, and they know all about the more unusual lines that are out there. Natalie Tessier, who I mentioned above, is one of the leaders in this effort. See the following page for more information.

Poodle Diversity Project - Blog - Poodles de Grenier


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Thanks peppersb. That goes to my 'has anybody, would anybody' comment. 

I used to discuss breeding at one time. 
Then y'all introduced 'haplotypes' and I stopped discussing it.  lol

Back in the days when Yadda was here we used to discuss it a lot but I haven't been caught up in a while. You've brought it up a few times with your Poodle Diversity Project. But I must admit that my ignorance has kept me from following that too closely. I simply wouldn't know what y'all are talking about.

Good to know that diversity is in good hands.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> I think that this was a line we talked about a few years ago in a diversity thread. Someone wiser than me at the time deemed them fairly distinct... isolated, but I haven't checked their COI or Wycliffe myself. Or if they were touched by Wycliffe at all.
> 
> Real French Poodles: Standard Poodles from the Languedoc, South of France
> 
> ...


Most standard poodles are nearly the same genetically - that was proven with the VGL diversity testing. BYB, puppy mill, show dogs. All fall within the same genetic cluster. Without VGL testing to prove otherwise, that breeder of "real french poodles" just has more of the same.

As far as _actual _outliers, as shown by a VGL diversity test, yes, a lot of breeders dedicated to improving diversity in the breed are doing just that. However, it's going to take awhile before show breeders can breed to outliers without losing more type than they are willing to sacrifice. Most will take baby steps.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

As far as [I said:


> actual [/I]outliers, as shown by a VGL diversity test, yes, a lot of breeders dedicated to improving diversity in the breed are doing just that. However, it's going to take awhile before show breeders can breed to outliers without losing more type than they are willing to sacrifice. Most will take baby steps.


'Outliers' - a handy word, thenks. 

And really, that scenario is as I guessed. Some working on melding the outlier lines with NA, or European, Fancies. And the process taking some time...

I'd love to be a part of your breeder quest but that would involve dealing with PUPPIES!! :afraid:


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