# Desjardins and Crabapple Downs



## Lovedogs

Anyone familiar with these breeders?

Thank you!


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## Chagall's mom

I am not familiar with this breeder, but like to suggest anyone searching for a poodle make use of the information offered by these websites. 

Welcome to PCA!
Welcome to PCA!

Versatility In Poodles
Versatility In Poodles

I took a quick look at the breeder's website. I was interested to read she does not dock tails or remove dew claws. I didn't readily spot the health testing she does on her dogs, or come across any info on her titling or competing with her dogs. These things are of consequence to me. Other members who can offer more will likely soon chime in soon.


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## Lovedogs

Thanks for the reply! Which breeder are you referring to?


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## Keithsomething

Personally, I'd be more comfortable with Desjardins (if you had proof of health testing, which isn't mentioned on their site anywhere I could find) only because they don't use any of those "touchy" words (low COI, temperament first, etc.).

Email both and ask them about testing, and see who you're more comfortable...we all have our preferences and whats important to us but...health testing should be paramount, then who does what with their dogs?, then the appearance can come into account


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## Lovedogs

What is "touchy" about COI and Temperament? Perhaps, I am naive but those are two important criteria for me. I am wondering if anyone has had dealings with either of these two breeders. 

Thanks!


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## outwest

COI and low Wycliffe are touchy because many of the top winning poodles in conformation have higher Wycliffe's and COIs. Not all of them, but most. Often they are so closely related as to share 50% of the genetics with each other. 

Desjardins is breeding traditional poodles that are good looking. They talk about health, but I would ask what testing they do and if it is posted on ofa. Their dogs look nice to me.

Crabapple Downs is breeding nontraditional poodle colors and dabbling in moyens (medium poodles). Some concentrate on that for health (mixing up the colors and types increases genetic diversity and often immune system health), some do it for experimentation and fun, some do it for the money. But, the poodles are not as nice conformationally. You can't get around that fact, but most people wouldn't know a good poodle from a bad. For a pet that shouldn't matter too much. 

Keep in mind that show breeders, like Desjardins, who has the better looking poodles of these two, will have many pet puppies with each litter. If they do health testing and are focussed on maintaining good temperaments in their breeding program, I might go for them over the other. Good show breeders, and there are many, try to breed healthy poodles who are good representations conformationally that have great temperaments. They won't sacrifice conformation in their goals, but they won't purposefully breed unhealthy dogs.

I would call Desjardins and ask about health testing and temperament. Ask about COI and see what they say. I personally like their dogs. The other breeder appears to be a pet breeder only. That's fine, but the dogs don't look quite as good from a looks only standpoint, but their personalities may rock. 

I have a poodle with a low Wycliffe who has an extremely diverse pedigree. She is the smartest, healthiest, most athletic dog I have ever had. Her personality is fabulous, but she is also high energy. She rocks.  But, she is not perfect conformationally- a little long, a little short and a small girl. I also have a traditional looking black show style standard poodle. He is a thing of beauty, super sweet and seems very healthy. People stop me in the street with him, but not so much with her. He has a very low COI, but a higher Wycliffe. I offer this because you need to decide what you are looking for. Desjardins poodles are more like him. You will have to meet the dogs to assess their personalities. 

Just my opinion, of course.


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## Keithsomething

What I meat when I said "touchy" is that terms like Low COI%, and temperament first, and non fading colours, etc. have all become marketing terms for BYB's who actually know very little about COI's or temperaments...personally I'd only deal with breeders that have an established line so that they can tell you how your dog will behave, how it will look, and what health disorders might effect it at some point (heaven forbid it should happen...but knowing the risks involved is slightly easier to deal with than being blind)

Personally I don't know either of these kennels, nothing speaks volumes about them but I'm only basing that off their websites. Many fantastic breeders that are active with their dogs allow their sites to lapse for whatever reason...so I don't hold them to accountable email them and ask for references, past buyers, other breeders they've worked with, etc. ask about health testing...and if COI's are important ask about their dogs I suppose...


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## outwest

Good points, Keith. My opinions on these two breeders is based ONLY on the websites. I know neither. I also agree that some of the best breeders hardly maintain a website. They go by word of mouth. I like going to a dog show, looking at the dogs and seeing which ones I like. Then go to the catalog and find out who their breeders are. Most breeders know many other breeders and if they don't have a puppy for you can recommend someone else. If you prefer agility dogs or something else, go to an agility show and talk to those owners where they got their dogs.


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## cowpony

I looked into Crabapple Downs when I was still puppy hunting. One thing I wanted in a breeder was someone I would feel comfortable consulting with if I had puppy problems down the road. That takes a special personality. The person has to be caring enough to want to stay involved, but the person also has to be capable of accepting that not everyone will do things the breeder's way. 

You know when you are looking to adopt from a rescue? There are some which ask basic sensible questions to assess whether you have the means and lifestyle needed to meet the animal's needs. Then there are others which ask really intrusive questions, to the point where you wonder if they ever actually succeed in adopting out an animal. 

Crabapple didn't seem like it would be a good match for me. They had more litters that year than I like to see, and it wasn't clear to me what the goals of the breeding program were. They also seemed a little more uptight than I would be comfortable with. Lots of grilling about my lifestyle (wanted one person to be home all day with the dog, stuff like that.) I just didn't get the feeling I could establish the kind of relationship I wanted.

I ended up going with a different breeder, one I clicked with after I discussed my horses. She talked about the personality of poodles and asked if I planned to make the dog sleep in the barn at night. "Oh god no," I said, shocked. "That would be a miserable life for a dog as sociable as a poodle. I just want a dog that's athletic enough to enjoy farm life without having an over the top prey drive or herding instinct. Jack Russells and Border Collies are just too intense for me." My comment reassured her, and her assessment of her dogs' good and bad points reassured me.


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## Liz

Just in case anyone stumbles upon this old post while researching breeders, do not use Crabapple. She's notorious in the poodle world. Over-breeds and dumps what she can't sell on rescues. She's done this so much over the years that no rescue in the entire northeast region of the US will take her dogs. So very sad.


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## PoodleTail

Wow - thanks for that info - she just rejected me for a girl puppy today though, apparently as I could not pick her up in time to bond appropriately. I'll keep looking!


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## Liz

I'm glad to be useful, even though I'm embarrassed to have been so blunt. I have a lot of feelings about Arlene after seeing so many of her dogs in rescue.

I don't know your situation or how old this pup is/will be when you would pick it up, but anytime she rejects an owner it's for one reason: $$$. My guess is she has three more litters on the way, needs the space, and already has a rescue lined up to take away her older pups and bail her out. It's an awful business.


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## peppersb

Liz -- I have heard similar things about Crabapple. Thanks for having the courage to share.

Poodletail -- I know you want a natural tail, but I hope that you will make sure that you are fully vetting the breeders that you are buying from. You want a healthy dog with a good solid temperament attached to that full tail, right? If you haven't already done so, take a look at this: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html


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## Viking Queen

PoodleTail said:


> Wow - thanks for that info - she just rejected me for a girl puppy today though, apparently as I could not pick her up in time to bond appropriately. I'll keep looking!


It's probably just as well she decided not to let you have one of her pus. Don't let any breeder tell you you have to get a pup at a certain age just so they "bond better". I have had 8 & 9 week old pups who have bonded to me just the same way the one I have now has bonded and she was 13 weeks when I got her. She bonded beautifully. And look at one of the most reputable breeders on the forum, Arreau, Cherie Perks. Her pups come from Canada to the US and are 4-5 months old and never have trouble bonding with their forever families. The early socialization of the pups by the breeders is more critical than you getting thpup by a certain age.

Keep searching. The perfect pup is out there for you.

Viking Queen


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## PoodleTail

peppersb said:


> Liz -- I have heard similar things about Crabapple. Thanks for having the courage to share.
> 
> Poodletail -- I know you want a natural tail, but I hope that you will make sure that you are fully vetting the breeders that you are buying from. You want a healthy dog with a good solid temperament attached to that full tail, right? If you haven't already done so, take a look at this: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html


Thanks for the link - very useful! Yes, definitely doing my research on anyone who will leave the tail. Just does not look like we will find one for this summer; looks like I started my poodle search too late


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## PoodleTail

Viking Queen said:


> It's probably just as well she decided not to let you have one of her pus. Don't let any breeder tell you you have to get a pup at a certain age just so they "bond better". I have had 8 & 9 week old pups who have bonded to me just the same way the one I have now has bonded and she was 13 weeks when I got her. She bonded beautifully. And look at one of the most reputable breeders on the forum, Arreau, Cherie Perks. Her pups come from Canada to the US and are 4-5 months old and never have trouble bonding with their forever families. The early socialization of the pups by the breeders is more critical than you getting thpup by a certain age.
> 
> Keep searching. The perfect pup is out there for you.
> 
> Viking Queen


Thank you! I did reach out to Arreau; they dock tails. Beautiful dogs and clearly a great breeder, though.


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## spindledreams

IF a natural tail is that important to you check out the breeders that post in Pure Undocked Poodles, AKC, UKC & CKC Just as the name says the puppies posted there are undocked and often have their dewclaws left on also. At the very least it is a good starting point but still do your own research.


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## PoodleTail

spindledreams said:


> IF a natural tail is that important to you check out the breeders that post in Pure Undocked Poodles, AKC, UKC & CKC Just as the name says the puppies posted there are undocked and often have their dewclaws left on also. At the very least it is a good starting point but still do your own research.


hey, thanks! I just requested to join. Looks like a great resource.


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## ColetteDRE

Hi, we have a Crabapple Downs Moyen poodle pup, 5 months old. She is healthy, happy, smart, energetic pup. Learns fast, very curious.
We named her Schnitzel Mayhem Houdini. She lives up to her names.
Arlene Mills has a close group that have and enjoy her pups. She is not a breeder for everyone. 
Happy to,answer any questions if you like. We are not sorry we purchased from her, Schnitzel is a marvelous pup.
I can't figure out how to get a picture of both our older Annie and Schnitzel,pup on this or I would share a photo!


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## Tiny Poodles

ColetteDRE said:


> Hi, we have a Crabapple Downs Moyen poodle pup, 5 months old. She is healthy, happy, smart, energetic pup. Learns fast, very curious.
> We named her Schnitzel Mayhem Houdini. She lives up to her names.
> Arlene Mills has a close group that have and enjoy her pups. She is not a breeder for everyone.
> Happy to,answer any questions if you like. We are not sorry we purchased from her, Schnitzel is a marvelous pup.
> I can't figure out how to get a picture of both our older Annie and Schnitzel,pup on this or I would share a photo!



Just goes to show you that there are many viewpoints on every breeder, and one should not take one person's opinion posted on the Internet as gospel!


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## oshagcj914

Tiny Poodles said:


> Just goes to show you that there are many viewpoints on every breeder, and one should not take one person's opinion posted on the Internet as gospel!


This is true, it's definitely always best to do our own research. Even the crappiest of breeders can produce good reviews from people who are happy with their dogs. There's a backyard breeder of blue Danes that lives near me. She has several letters from happy puppy owners on her site...and also many of her dogs have dropped dead at age 5 from heart problems, she has no old dogs in her home at all (wonder why that is, huh?), and she doesn't bother to show or health test. She's breeding "Euro" Danes just because she can sell them to ignorant buyers for thousands. Even if you get a recommendation from someone you know for a breeder, always educate yourself and do your own homework!


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## Liz

I know backyard breeders who, although they don't show and aren't performance households, nonetheless breed responsibly. Someone who dumps 17 dogs on a rescue and lies about the reason why ("I had two 16-puppy litters back-to-back and couldn't sell them all") is not running a responsible breeding program. And when you find out she does this regularly - so often that NOT A SINGLE RESCUE IN THE ENTIRE NORTHEAST UNITED STATES will take her dogs - then she's a puppy mill.

It's not that I won't support her dogs, it's that I don't support her.

Don't believe me? Ask around. She has a nasty reputation.


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## Tiny Poodles

Liz said:


> I know backyard breeders who, although they don't show and aren't performance households, nonetheless breed responsibly. Someone who dumps 17 dogs on a rescue and lies about the reason why ("I had two 16-puppy litters back-to-back and couldn't sell them all") is not running a responsible breeding program. And when you find out she does this regularly - so often that NOT A SINGLE RESCUE IN THE ENTIRE NORTHEAST UNITED STATES will take her dogs - then she's a puppy mill.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not that I won't support her dogs, it's that I don't support her.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't believe me? Ask around. She has a nasty reputation.



Not that I don't believe you, I just don't know you personally. And I don't know the rescues either. Rescues in my experience tend to be really hateful towards breeders, as do breed clubs towards breeders who are not in their inner circle.
Were I looking for a new breeder (which I hope never to have to do), I would try to find as many puppy buyers as possible to hear their personal experiences from, weighting their opinions by how poodle knowledgeable they appear to be. I would not judge them by what one or two angry people write on the Internet. In my experience angry people are much more prone to post their feelings on the Internet than happy and content people.
Again, I am not speaking of you, just in general terms....
And I don't have a horse in this race, just giving my opinion...


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## PoodleTail

peppersb said:


> Liz -- I have heard similar things about Crabapple. Thanks for having the courage to share.
> 
> Poodletail -- I know you want a natural tail, but I hope that you will make sure that you are fully vetting the breeders that you are buying from. You want a healthy dog with a good solid temperament attached to that full tail, right? If you haven't already done so, take a look at this: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html


Follow up 
I did find the perfect pup and he does have a show docked tail. Ultimately, health and breeder and availability topped a tail. 
He is from Winter's Wind Poodles and I am getting him in late July.


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## Liz

That's great news PoodleTail! I love the undocked tails, too, and I hope that it becomes breed standard in the US. In the meantime, I think you made the smart move.


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## Liz

Tiny Poodles - if your point is "trust but verify," I wholeheartedly agree.


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## peppersb

PoodleTail said:


> Follow up
> I did find the perfect pup and he does have a show docked tail. Ultimately, health and breeder and availability topped a tail.
> He is from Winter's Wind Poodles and I am getting him in late July.


Wonderful news PoodleTail! I do think you were wise to focus on health and breeder over tail. But I would love to see more natural tails. When I bred Cammie, I wanted to leave the puppy tails and dewclaws untouched, but I got out-voted by my puppy buyers and my mentor/co-breeder. (I had buyers lined up before the pups were born, and my mentor/co-breeder was hoping to show one of the pups.) It seems that tails are gradually getting cropped at longer lengths, so maybe someday we'll see show dogs with natural tails. I hope so.


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## WinnieJane

I made the same choice, PoodleTail. I found a great breeder who doesn't dock (Shyre) but we would have had to wait until the end of the year for a dog. We had a disappointment with a dog my kids thought we were getting in May, and I just didn't want to make them wait that long for their puppy. I also didn't want to house train in a Chicago winter! I am happy with our decision- but if we ever get a second poodle, I will plan well in advance and go with Shyre or a like-minded breeder.


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## skimeister

I would STRONGLY urge anyone who is thinking of getting a poodle or any other dog from Arlene Mills and Crabapple Downs in Colebrook NH to look elsewhere. I'm glad to see that there are some on here sharing what is whispered. In my opinion, Arlene Mills is operating a puppy mill, and my experience with her was not a good one. Here is a link to the review I posted elsewhere:









Crabapple Downs - Colebrook, NH


Pet Adoption in Colebrook, NH




www.yelp.com





It's always a good idea to talk to your vet's office and ask for reputable breeders. They know. That's how we found the breeder of our current standard poodle, and he's been fantastic (and healthy - not a single genetic disease unlike Arlene's dog, who came with all the major ones). And we plan to get another dog from the same breeder. 

It saddens me that operations like Crapabble Downs exist that seem to pump out large numbers of dogs, many of which appear to have a great risk of being unhealthy (which only becomes apparent later in life). There are many good choices for standard poodle breeders in New England who are first and foremost about producing excellent dogs. I do not believe Crabapple Downs is one of them.


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## Liz

Thank you for sharing, Skimeister. Best wishes for a long and happy life with your new spoo!


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## JBM

We had a heart-breaking experience buying a puppy from Crabapple Downs. He required surgery on both eyes and and developed gastrointestinal lymphoma and died right after turning 5. The veterinarians who treated his conditions indicated they were genetic. We found out some pretty sketchy info about them later, but not in time to prevent what we went through with vet expenses and the loss of a very young dog.


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## Liz

I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your dog, JBM. I hope you find solace in knowing that your post will help others.


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## JBM

Liz said:


> I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your dog, JBM. I hope you find solace in knowing that your post will help others.


Thank you, that is all I hope to do by sharing our story. The hard lesson we learned is that you can’t judge the health of a dog or the integrity of a breeder by a web site or our former groomer, we needed to investigate more, and hope this spares others of the heart-break.


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