# Concerning tail length



## CharismaticMillie

Libby2011 said:


> Sometime ago I read somewhere that in judging Poodles that they should 'not be faulted' for having a too short tail docking, as it is 'man caused' and not a birth fault. Has anyone else ever read this?
> 
> I have 2 UCH Standards, one with a very short dock and one with a natural tail. Obviously, more than one judge was not swayed by my girl's tiny tail. A breeder on another site recently had her beautifully structured pup not place. Both judges said it was ONLY because his tail was docked too short.
> 
> Any judges cared to respond?


The breed standard by which poodles in the AKC ring are judged states, " (c) Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline."


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## Libby2011

Thank you, CharismaticMillie 

We both show Multicolors in UKC (she also shows dogs in AKC, I believe, but not sure). This was at an UKC show.

From the UKC Standard for both MC and Solid Standards:

*TAIL*

The tail is straight, set high, and customarily docked to a length proportionate to the size of the dog. Whether standing or moving, the tail is carried erect.

Serious Faults: Low tail set, tail curled or carried over the back.

My girl has an extremely short tail, but was never faulted for it. She achieved her CH in two outings.

I was wondering if anyone ever read what I had in my original post and where it could be found again. I've searched and searched but can't come up with it.


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## MiniPoo

I cannot answer whether the judges were wrong to fault a poodle because of an extremely short docked tail, but I never understood how the vet/breeder doing the docking could possibly think a short tail was appropriate for a poodle. Poodles are not dobermans. I place the blame on whoever did the short docking or the breeder who did not instruct the vet in the proper length. I would prefer an undocked tail, but if it must be docked, then the breeder should make sure it is done at a reasonable length.

Sorry if this is not the type of answer you were looking for.


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## Libby2011

MiniPoo, My thoughts exactly! I really had to think twice when I chose Dani, because all her other features were great and she had that firey personality that wins! Thank goodness the judges overlooked that stub!

By coincidence the same vet, who became a friend, did my puppies' tails, however I instructed and marked EXACTLY where I wanted them docked and had NO trouble in letting her know what a sorry job she had done on my girl! LOL


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## Libby2011

BTW, Dani was the ONLY one in the litter to suffer this tragedy!


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## alwayson

*Short Tails*



MiniPoo said:


> I cannot answer whether the judges were wrong to fault a poodle because of an extremely short docked tail, but I never understood how the vet/breeder doing the docking could possibly think a short tail was appropriate for a poodle. Poodles are not dobermans. I place the blame on whoever did the short docking or the breeder who did not instruct the vet in the proper length. I would prefer an undocked tail, but if it must be docked, then the breeder should make sure it is done at a reasonable length.
> 
> Sorry if this is not the type of answer you were looking for.


 Vet's are not trained in the standard of the breeds , a short tail screams PM or BY breeder make the poodle look unbalanced the same goes for a undocked tail I have heard a judges tell a handler " don't you every bring a undocked tail in my ring again . ACK shows are not as excepting of a short tail You see gay tails all the time , and they put them up you see more gay tails in toys then mimes or standards I think 

Sorry :angel:


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## CharismaticMillie

An undocked tail does NOT scream Puppy Mill or Backyard Breeder.


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## MiniPoo

alwayson said:


> Vet's are not trained in the standard of the breeds , a short tail screams PM or BY breeder make the poodle look unbalanced the same goes for a undocked tail I have heard a judges tell a handler " don't you every bring a undocked tail in my ring again . ACK shows are not as excepting of a short tail You see gay tails all the time , and they put them up you see more gay tails in toys then mimes or standards I think
> 
> Sorry :angel:


Alwayson, way to spread the Christmas spirit. I don't know if you ever post anything cheerful. I'm not even sure you read the all the posts. The vet that docked this dog's tail short was instructed properly by the OP but botched the tail of her dog accidentally. 

I can appreciate an undocked tail, of a poodle or other breeds. Undocked tails is more normal in Europe than it is in the US. A few breeders in the US believe tail docking and removing dew claws is cruel. So undocked tails in of itself is not a sign of a BYB or PM.


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## alwayson

MiniPoo said:


> Alwayson, way to spread the Christmas spirit. I don't know if you ever post anything cheerful. I'm not even sure you read the all the posts. The vet that docked this dog's tail short was instructed properly by the OP but botched the tail of her dog accidentally.
> 
> I can appreciate an undocked tail, of a poodle or other breeds. Undocked tails is more normal in Europe than it is in the US. A few breeders in the US believe tail docking and removing dew claws is cruel. So undocked tails in of itself is not a sign of a BYB or PM.[/Q
> You know I find this forum very unfriendly , they seem they think they are the only ones that are entitled to a opinion , and no I only seen what I could find , if you like undocked that is your choice but not every one does and no one that shows at ACK does , I find some on here very rude and only think what they have to say is right , and the way they think is the only right way , I have heard others breeders say why they don't like the people on this site now I can total understand what I said was just my opinion :argh: You have a Merry Christmas


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## poodlecrazy#1

alwayson said:


> You know I find this forum very unfriendly , they seem they think they are the only ones that are entitled to a opinion , and no I only seen what I could find , if you like undocked that is your choice but not every one does and no one that shows at ACK does , I find some on here very rude and only think what they have to say is right , and the way they think is the only right way , I have heard others breeders say why they don't like the people on this site now I can total understand what I said was just my opinion :argh: You have a Merry Christmas



Really? Unfriendly and rude?!!! You are the one that came on PF and started calling people names and accusing people of things. You get what you give Hun.


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## alwayson

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Really? Unfriendly and rude?!!! You are the one that came on PF and started calling people names and accusing people of things. You get what you give Hun.


 You know that is really not important any more is , that was a different subject matter and I ask not to say any more , and I haven't there are some people that live in their own little world and do nothing to stop things that are not right. I can see you don't care for me just because of who are your friends with and you agree with what is going on . If you don't want to believe what was in print That is your choice . I was trying to inform people what was going . Bless You Loving Heat 
I don't think we have anything to say to each other . Enjoy Your life :amen:


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## cmarrie

My boy's tail is not docked and I think it's beautiful. I couldn't imagine him any other way. The way he holds it horizontal to the left when he's processing information, and how it arcs up like a backward C over his bottom when he's happy. 

I love this conversation between Jay Mohr and Christopher Walken. I saw Mohr do it as part of his stand up act once. Hilarious and True. IMHO.

http://bamber.blogspot.com/2004/05/i-am-reminded-of-exchange-between-jay.html?m=1


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## patk

isn't it interesting knowing that dogs can be "classified" as left-brained and right-brained too? there are also "whole-brained" humans. i imagine a whole-brained dog could be quite formidable. i wonder sometimes if my now gone over rainbow bridge girl was whole-brained. she developed some amazing behaviors that definitely did not come about as a result of human "training." and, oh, yes, she was a lowchen - no docked tails, so easier to "read" the dog.


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## MiniPoo

When I got my first poodle many years ago, I did not realize their tails were docked. My PWDs have undocked tails which I think are lovely but they are always getting in the way when grooming the rear feet and butt area. Then I think I could appreciate a shorter tail just for the convenience factor when grooming. I certainly want a dog that has some type of tail more than a stump because they do communicate with it.


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## Streetcar

*To CharismaticMillie's point *

Recognize him? (Sorry for the poor quality cell pic.)

Not the progency of a BYB or miller .

I don't think his tail has been shortened. However, :airplane: has been involved...


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## Tiny Poodles

patk said:


> isn't it interesting knowing that dogs can be "classified" as left-brained and right-brained too? there are also "whole-brained" humans. i imagine a whole-brained dog could be quite formidable. i wonder sometimes if my now gone over rainbow bridge girl was whole-brained. she developed some amazing behaviors that definitely did not come about as a result of human "training." and, oh, yes, she was a lowchen - no docked tails, so easier to "read" the dog.



Timi has a gorgeous long dock, and she has the most expressive tail that 
I have ever seen in a dog! Makes it difficult to figure out the best way to trim it, but I do think that it is a sign of doggie genius that she has about 15 different things that she can "say" with her tail! Dumb me is still trying to decode all of them, but I am sure that 
I will catch on eventually lol.


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## Streetcar

TinyPoodles, she also has the most expressive face and eyes. I just love your signature photo of her looking at you, head tilted and obviously listening intently, all wrapped up in her darling pink suit.


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## Tiny Poodles

Streetcar said:


> TinyPoodles, she also has the most expressive face and eyes. I just love your signature photo of her looking at you, head tilted and obviously listening intently, all wrapped up in her darling pink suit.



Thank you, what a sweet thing to say!


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## Shamrockmommy

Jack's tail is docked quite long. He uses it for all sorts of things. Showing his mood/emotions (happy tail, sad tail, bossy tail). He uses it when sprinting about the yard- speed tail (straight off the topline), brake tail (up and over the back) turn tail (either right or left to balance while turning), cold nose tail (curled up in a ball with his nose underneath. 

I had a minpin with a very short tail dock. Often wondered how he'd had been with a full tail. :O) 
I rather like natural tails, too, although for pompon purposes, the hair can be somewhat thin at the end.


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## Ladyscarletthawk

To me it makes sense that a dog with a short docked tail(to an extent )may have a harder time winning in AKC. Seeing that a tail that is too short may not be as balance or proportionate as a longer tail. That said one group winning dog had a slightly shorter dock than preferred , but was still way longer than a lot of pet tail docks

That said I took in my first litter into my vet for a tail dock. I was very clear that I had to be in the room to make sure the tails were docked at the right length. The first pup she picked up and asked if this was right.. she would have docked 3/4 the tail off *shudder*! I showed her exactly were and she got it right. Apparently "breeders" want them shorter than that sometimes! I told her that was completely incorrect and entirely too short! So she grabs the docked tail and puts it nest to the next puppies tail to measure with. I said no each dog is an individual and you can't measure that way.. The tail would have been docked too short if she did it that way. Another method used to dock tails unfortunately. She was amazed at how little was taken off. I dock a 1/3 of the tail off, and when in doubt leave longer than go shorter!


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## Agidog

Here in Australia we are forbidden to dock tails of any breed since rules concerning same were implemented some years back, as a result we see poodles with long tails/short tails. curled piglet style tails and very very gay tails none of which seem to incur any mark down for fault and yet standard for poodle is "Docked: Set on rather high, carried at slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over back, thick at root.
Undocked: Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible.


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