# Clicker confusion!



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

I have not taken clicker lessons but I do have a clicker and would like to use it to train Lucy.

So - is it -- sit -- click -- good girl -- treat. In that order?

If not - what is the correct order for rewarding when she does something I want?

Secondly, is the final aim with clicker training that in the end the click will be the reward and there is no - good girl and treat??

Thanks.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

When you are clicker training, you want to use the clicker as a marker. Basically you're saying to the dog "yes, that right there is what I want you to do".

As you are starting to teach a brand new action (sit, down, etc.) you initially want to click as they start to do the behaviour. So as she starts to sit, click. As she starts to down, click. My instructor who is a big clicker proponent said most of us click too late, especially when the dog is just starting out. As she starts to understand what it is you want her to do, you can start to click later in the action. So as she sits you click. Then once you have a firm understanding you might want to wait until she has sat for a second or so then click and treat.

The order of actions is as you say - click, good girl, treat. The clicker marks the action and lets them know that a treat is coming so you don't have to be in a big rush to give them the treat. My instructor said that as you are first starting to use the clicker you always have to treat following it. So if you jump the gun and click before they've actually done anything, you have to treat to create that association.

It's my understanding that the clicker should always be associated with a treat. As the dog becomes familiar with the term you can leave out the clicker then just say good girl and treat. 

Then you want to move onto a lottery system. So say the dog sits, you say good girl, but no treat. Then the next time the dog sits, you say good girl, and she gets 2 treats. Next time 1 treat, then none, then 5 etc. So you want to keep the dog guessing. Am I going to get a treat or not? It's worth checking in to see. Eventually you will only have to give treats once in a while to reinforce the behaviour.

You should only stop using the clicker though once the behaviour is very solid, which might take a while.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

There's a couple Ways of using a clicker the basics of it stay the same. 

FIRST you teach teh dog that the CLICK means a treat. So you gotta 'load the clicker" so click treat click treat click treat. At some point you'll click she'll go OH TREAT. voila she's making the connection. 

The first few times you use the clicker you'll do this. Then she'll have it for life. 

the click IS the good girl. It marks the moment she's doing something you want her to. Now how you get her to do that- doesn't matter (Different methods different theories blah blah) So if your wanting to work on SIT- Have her sit- as she gets into the sit CLICK. then give a treat. No good girl required. in the past we "Good girled" then treated. BUT where this caused issues was this 
1- say your dog isn't being good about learning to sit- and stands right back up- by the time you finish saying "Good girl" the dog is now standing. So what did you just reward? the sit or the stand? the dog doesn't know either. T he click is Clear and consise and FAST so the click is at the point the dog SITS_ and bridges the THING the dog did right to the reward. So you have time to get that goodie out. 

Now how do you get that dog to sit? that's where different theoris come in- but the point that you click never changes- be it that you Lure the dog into a sit- or you push the bum down- or that you shape the sit... the click is always at the moment the dog sits- and the treat comes right after.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

forgot to add- the final aim is that once the dog is GOOD at the 'thing' your doing (Say 'sit") you don't click or treat every single time- you jus do it on occasion. IE my dog who 'shakes a paw" at age 13 doesn't see the clicker for it more then a few times a year- if that. he knows how to shake a paw- he knows how to sit- it's part of life he's expected to do it- but sometimes he gets rewarded for it- to let him know he's doing it right- or i'll use the clicker to make that thing BETTER if he starts getting sloppy

IN my opinion as long as your working on something i'd always prefer the click to a 'good girl' it's faster more concise and teaches the dogs quicker (The sound of it causes a different part of their brain to react then a vocal praise) 

So i don't go to the 'good girl' stage until the thing is very solid and your past the point of training that thing (be it sit, stand what ever)


----------



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

yup, NeVar is right, DON'T say 'good girl' or anything for now. You can worry about adding in words or something later. To train the clicker initially it's easier if you keep your mouth SHUT! lol! 

Don't even ask her to sit yet!

get your clicker, and a bazillion tiny treats (I'm talking fingernail size, or smaller, NOT big chunks!) Because you'll have treats Lucy is gonna be watching you like a hawk wanting some. Click the clicker, and give her a treat. Do it again. And again. Click & treat her. Click & treat. Click & treat. Rapid fire! Just click/treat/click/treat 10-20 times at least. She's gonna think it's chirstmas! lol. The only thing to make sure of is that you click THEN treat, not click AS you treat. You want it clear that the 'click' means "Woop! Now a treat is coming!" not just "weird noise that happens when I'm eating".

So click and then treat, click and treat. Yes? Ok. Now, take a moment and try clicking and then tossing the treat on the ground at her feet. Now most dogs when food is tossed on the ground will then sniff about briefly to check there's not any more there. The moment she looks back up at you; click and toss another treat. And again, as soon as she looks back up from having her nose on the ground, click and toss a treat. Oooo; you've just taught her another level that the clicker works; if she DOES something (looks at you), it CAUSES the click, which in turn means food is coming! Wooooot! 

I would work on that over a couple of sessions (10 mins max, a few times a day if possible) You can get picky with your 'look' once she is 'getting it' too; wait till she looks at your face rather than your hand (most will look at your hand cos that's where the food will be tossed from!) just wait a few seconds, she'll probably sit there looking at you, watch her eyes closely and the _instant_ they flick up to your face, click and toss some food! You can wriggle your nose and pull faces or even make a noise to get her attention off your hands and to look at your face if you have to, but don't use her name or any 'command' yet, just squeek or something. If you are fast enough to catch her glance with the clicker then you've just taught her yet *another* level of how clicker training works, and you've just started fine tuning her!!!

The reason I'm using a simple 'look' as the behaviour is that you can teach it soooooooo easily by tossing the food away (so they HAVE to look away to get the food) and they will ALWAYS look back at you for more [eventually!] and with the fine tuning you teach them the mechanics of how the clicker works very quickly. That, and it doesn't matter if you get all confused and muck it up cos it's not a behaviour that really matters! lol.


One other note I will make though is that initially, the click is a contract written in blood. You MUST pay the dog with a treat every time you click. I do NOT care if you click accidentally or if you clicked the wrong bit (too slow or something). If you click, you WILL pay your dog with a treat. Later on when you are both far more advanced in your training you can afford the odd mis-click or whatever, but for now you MUST give her a treat for EVERY SINGLE CLICK. It won't be effective if sometimes you don't give her a treat and other times you do!

A click will ALWAYS mean a reward is coming (a reward can be playing tug or something as well as a food treat or whatever) you will _never_ use the click as a reward in itself. It is a training tool when paired with rewards, and is used for training behaviours and building them up, but once it's a learned thing it is generally faded out. For day to day things you won't be carrying your clicker all the time anyway, and a simple 'good girl!' and a pat or whatever will suffice to let her know she's good for waiting when she was asked, now run along and play. lol.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Great - thanks a lot all of you. Have to print this and stick it on the wall!

Maybe it will work with a man - although I kind of doubt it. When we had our Golden, my husband NEVER learned to pick his clothes up at night. He put his clothes on the chair beside the bed - Tansy took his t-shirt a chewed a hole in it. So it put my clothes in the drawer. My husband put his on the chair beside the bed. Consequently, every single t-shirt he owned had a hole chewed in it. 

Because Lucy takes things. I put my clothes out of reach and my shoes in the closet. As you can imagine, my husband leaves his clothes on the chair and his shoes on the floor!! So every day before he gets up - Lucy drags his clothes around the house. I just leave them where she drops them - but I bet you dollars to donuts he never figures out that he should put them out of reach - even if she starts chewing things up!!


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Clicker training is great, but it's a booger to get the timing right sometimes.

I love the clicker, because I chatter away at my dog, and it's hard sometimes for him to tell from my voice when he's done what I've asked.

Essentially, the clicker serves two purposes: to mark (exactly) the behaviour you are after, and to serve as a promise of a reward. 

You can use food to 'lure' the dog into the position you want, then click to reinforce.

I trained sit to my poodle when he was a 12 week puppy like this:

- hold food in fist so puppy can smell but not take
- hold fist at nose level, very slightly over the dog's head
- puppy naturally sits because he's interested in the treat - click and open your fist
- repeat until he sits right away at the fist at his nose

- Then do the above with an empty fist, where you click then reach for a treat from the counter behind you and treat the dog
- repeat

- Now add the word 'sit' when you do the above
- repeat

- Now try it with just the word
- repeat

It doesn't take long, but make sure the dog is solid at each step before you move on.

Same thing for down, but use a treat in your fist held at the floor. The puppy will bounce around and paw your fist and do all sorts of things, but will eventually lie down in frustration if nothing else. Quickly click and treat, and proceed as above.

It's important not to add the word until the dog understands the action, if that makes sense.


----------



## Purley (May 21, 2010)

thanks for the info - I am definitely going to print all this and stick it on the wall where I can easily find it.


----------

