# The Foxy Days



## MakeShift Heart

So because I keep having so many interesting times with these crazy critters I'm going to go ahead and make some what of a little blog here if you guys don't mind. 

Also this could be where any of you can ask me questions, and if I don't know the answers I'll take them to my friend and get back to you!

I know you guys already know them from my most recent thread but I'm going to start this out but telling you about each fox.

This is Axel he is a Red Fox with silver markings. The youngest of the two. Here's his baby picture.










He's a lot more social than Xion and is allowed to go on outings with us most of the time.










He has a very playful personality and is most likely the first to run to the door and check you out when entering the pen.










He likes to jump and try to grab at your sleeves, belt, shirt, whatever he can get a hold of. Anything to get your attention to say, "Play with me!"










He's pretty tolerant with other dogs, however if they start wrestling more than he's comfortable with he'll let them no with a nip on the nose.


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## MakeShift Heart

This is Xion, she is a red fox with platinum markings. The oldest of the two.

Here's her baby picture










When we first met Xion she was extremely excited to see Belle. However, her people socialization isn't going as well. She's still pretty scared of people, but in time I think she'll come around.










She's already starting to get better at socializing. She used to be scared of me but now is actually starting to get curious enough to come sniff at me and see who I am.










She isn't allowed to go on outings with us, because she gets so nervous she'll pee and poop in the car. She used to not do that as much but once she started spazzing more was when my friend decided, it's best to just leave her home.










When days are slow, my friend will take her to work with her to help with her socializing. She has her own little crate to hide in if things get to be too much for her.


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## cavon

Beautiful!


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## spoowhisperer

I watched a very interesting documentary about domesticating Foxes that I believe was made in Russia. I don't believe it is available any longer, but it was _very_ interesting.
Here is a article that you can find the written info of the documantary it you are interested. 
Dog domestication, The secret life of the dog
Scroll down and you will see a hightlighted domestication of the Fox. You will have to downlaod it, but its very interesting.


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## MyGirlAbby

Xion looks like a dainty border collie with a fluffy tail. Are they nocturnal?


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## Bella's Momma

They're just beautiful! I missed the story, how did you end up with baby foxes?


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## MakeShift Heart

Bella's Momma said:


> They're just beautiful! I missed the story, how did you end up with baby foxes?


I wish they were mine but actually they're my best friend's pet foxes . She rescued them from a fur farm after looking up the domestication of foxes.


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## MakeShift Heart

MyGirlAbby said:


> Xion looks like a dainty border collie with a fluffy tail. Are they nocturnal?


From what my friend tells me they can be a little reckless at night but they sometimes do sleep with her. So im not real sure on this. I think they just go like cats do in spurts, then nap, then go, then nap.


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## Bella's Momma

FUR FARM?! People still buy Fox Furs? *shudder* 

Even better, for you, to be the friend. All the fun, none of the work.  You're like a Fox Auntie.


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## MakeShift Heart

Bella's Momma said:


> FUR FARM?! People still buy Fox Furs? *shudder*
> 
> Even better, for you, to be the friend. All the fun, none of the work.  You're like a Fox Auntie.


Haha so true. I do intend to own one someday though


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## Locket

Would it not be better to rehabilitate them and find a conservation centre for them rather then domesticate them? Foxes are wild animals, and at such a young age, they would likely have little trouble adjusting to living in the "wild".


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## MakeShift Heart

Locket said:


> Would it not be better to rehabilitate them and find a conservation centre for them rather then domesticate them? Foxes are wild animals, and at such a young age, they would likely have little trouble adjusting to living in the "wild".


Her intentions in adopting them were to keep them as pets. There's actually tamed foxes now, they were started out in Russia. There was a whole documentary on this experiment that Russians did in domesticating foxes.


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## Locket

MakeShift Heart said:


> Her intentions in adopting them were to keep them as pets. There's actually tamed foxes now, they were started out in Russia. There was a whole documentary on this experiment that Russians did in domesticating foxes.


Just because people are taming foxes does not make it right. What qualities about foxes make them desirable pets, or make them distinct from a pet dog or cat or other domesticated animal??

The last thing the world needs are more pet "options", as we clearly cannot even properly care for the animals we have domesticated for hundreds of years.


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## Keithsomething

Locket said:


> Just because people are taming foxes does not make it right. What qualities about foxes make them desirable pets, or make them distinct from a pet dog or cat or other domesticated animal??
> 
> The last thing the world needs are more pet "options", as we clearly cannot even properly care for the animals we have domesticated for hundreds of years.


-like-


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## Fluffyspoos

Locket said:


> Just because people are taming foxes does not make it right. What qualities about foxes make them desirable pets, or make them distinct from a pet dog or cat or other domesticated animal??
> 
> The last thing the world needs are more pet "options", as we clearly cannot even properly care for the animals we have domesticated for hundreds of years.


Yeah I was going to say something too..

I personally think she should have taken them to a specialty center, like a wildlife park or a zoo. The quality of life can't be nearly as good as it could be.


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## PonkiPoodles

MakeShift Heart said:


> Her intentions in adopting them were to keep them as pets. There's actually tamed foxes now, they were started out in Russia. There was a whole documentary on this experiment that Russians did in domesticating foxes.


They domesticated them in Russia because they are breeding them for the fur industry. So initially they were bred to be slaughtered so people could have the nice furry coats.


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## Cdnjennga

Locket said:


> Just because people are taming foxes does not make it right. What qualities about foxes make them desirable pets, or make them distinct from a pet dog or cat or other domesticated animal??
> 
> The last thing the world needs are more pet "options", as we clearly cannot even properly care for the animals we have domesticated for hundreds of years.


Yep I agree. The foxes are adorable, but I personally don't like the way we as humans try to domesticate everything.


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## WonderPup

Just curious, but what about a fox does NOT make them a great pet? I really don't know much of anything about them though I am aware of a lot of people who keep them as pets. Foxes and Skunks.... Skunks apparently make really nice pets? *shrugs* one of my training students had one and brought it to class, he was Super adorable and sweet. She said he was litter box trained and everything. The same student was getting a pair of foxes but I went and got knocked up so I haven't seen her since then and don't know if she ever got them. I never really asked her about them. I don't really see the big issue with keeping them as pets if they are already domesticated, and from what little I know they seemed to be?? I think I read that they bred them long enough to actualy begin getting mutations in genes and such and so by that reasoning they are different from their wild counterparts. I can't see how the quality of life would be so poor as a pet so long as basic needs were met? But then, like I said, I don't know much of anything about what a Fox's basic needs are as far as space and diet and such.


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## Locket

Here is a website that explains why foxes do not make good pets.
Red Foxes and Other Species



> Foxes as pets (Bad! Bad!)
> 
> Because of their size, their relation to dogs, and their somewhat exotic nature, foxes are sometimes sought out as pets. This is almost universally a bad idea. Foxes are wild animals, and are not accustomed, as are dogs, to living in a "family" of humans. That said, foxes do have personalities, and you may hear from time to time of someone who had or has a fox as a pet and has no problems. This is a rarity. Almost all the fox pets I know of either died or had to be gotten rid of.
> 
> Here are a few of the major problems with owning a fox as a pet:
> 
> They smell as strong as a skunk in close quarters, and although it is theoretically possible to have their scent glands removed, this is not very healthy and will not eliminate the smell of their urine, which is very powerful.
> Foxes need a huge amount of space in which to run.
> Foxes love to dig, and can easily dig out of a yard or through a sofa.
> Foxes are at high risk to carry rabies. In many areas, there is no approved rabies vaccine for foxes; even if you have papers proving your fox has been vaccinated, some states will still have it destroyed and tested if it bites someone.
> Because foxes are at high risk, you MUST get it vaccinated. This can prove very difficult. Veterinarians need a special license to treat wildlife, which many don't have, because it's a high-risk, low-reward proposition.
> Lastly, it is very likely that a fox you own as a pet will be very unhappy. Many wild animals become depressed when removed from their natural habitat, and foxes are subject to depression as much as any other animal.
> I have met one fox, named Tippy, who was raised as a pet. Her story is an excellent illustration of why foxes make poor pets. I have heard that there is a breeding program in Russia, where someone claims to have bred a domesticated fox, but these foxes are not available in the U.S. (yet?). If you insist that you can overcome these problems and are still going ahead and getting a fox as a pet, please make sure to do the following:
> 
> Before you do anything else, make certain you know a veterinarian in your area who is licensed to treat wildlife. Talk to the vet, tell him/her of your plans, and make sure they will treat your pet. Find out about the rabies laws in your state.
> Purchase the fox from an experienced exotic animal breeder, preferably, or from a game farm. These foxes are at least partly domesticated and more used to humans than a wild fox. Buy your fox as a cub, so it has the most time to acclimate to a bizarre life living with humans. Adult foxes purchased from farms may exhibit erratic behavior; after all, they are being bred for appearance, not docility.
> Give your fox plenty of room and, ideally, an escape-proof yard (with a fence sunk at least two feet into the ground).
> I have no idea how to go about training a fox. Make sure, though, that you train your friends and family in how to behave around the fox. Remember that it is a wild animal. It may bite you in play without breaking the skin, but if alarmed, it could seriously injure someone. Worst of all (from the fox's perspective), if it bites someone and breaks the skin, the bitten person can file a report and have your animal taken away and possibly destroyed. Even if the person is a friend of yours, if they go to the hospital for treatment of a fox bite, the hospital is legally obliged to report the incident to the state's Health Department (or whichever branch of it handles such cases).
> When your animal is old enough, have it neutered. You've already ruined any chance it might have at a fulfilling life from its point of view; neutering will make it calmer and happier, therefore making you happier.


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## MakeShift Heart

If this is going to just become a bash fest then feel free to lock and close this thread.

I was doing nothing but trying to share this exciting moment. The fox is my top favorite animal so I am extremely happy to be able to hold one in my lap right now.

My friend did months and months of research before adopting the two foxes. She knows the pros and cons of owning them and is ready to take them on.

Her foxes are VERY happy, and have everything they need to be happy.

We do have a vet here who is taking care of them, and they have their shots.

I am well aware that everyone has a right to state their opinion, but I don't see why it's necessary to make a very enlightening moment so dark just because of a few mistakes in the past that we did not even make.


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## Locket

If the fox were my favourite animal, I would be appalled at having a friend with two as pets. Just saying...


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## Karma'sACat

Your friend might be breaking laws by keeping a fox as a pet. They are classified as wild animals and to have one, even to rehab it, you need to have a special license.
I hope she is at least working with a wildlife rehabber who knows foxes. Trust me, research isn't enough with wild animals. You need a person who knows what they are doing and can help.
And honestly, I doubt these are domesticated. They are likely tame, not domesticated.


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## Keithsomething

I have to agree with Locket...they're adorable photos Makeshift, but a wild animal should stay just that; wild

one of my closet friends just got hired at one of our state parks, she graduated from OSU a year ago with a bachelors in Fisheries, and Wildlife and she currently has a raccoon named Lisa...Lisa lives a very relaxed easy life compared to what she'd be experiencing now in the wild but...she isn't treated like a pet is, shes treated with care and my friend never allows people to pet, or get to close to Lisa...because one day she will be rehabilitated and placed back into the wild where she belongs

to have any wild animal become associated and "use" to humans is just asking for trouble...those foxes will never be able to be placed in the wild v.v;

but I'm going to say something about "domesticating" animals...its taken what...11,000 years to have the animals we know and love now domesticated to the point that they are? so perhaps in a few thousand years foxes and other wild animals will become COMPLETELY dependent on humans like so many other species 

these are just opinions...no bashing intended


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## Locket

Keithsomething said:


> but I'm going to say something about "domesticating" animals...its taken what...11,000 years to have the animals we know and love now domesticated to the point that they are? *so perhaps in a few thousand years foxes and other wild animals will become COMPLETELY dependent on humans like so many other species *


Thank GOD I'll be dead by then...what an awful awful thought/potential reality.


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## Keithsomething

Locket said:


> Thank GOD I'll be dead by then...what an awful awful thought/potential reality.


you and me both v.v

but according to NASA, we'll be living on the moons of Mars so...maybe it won't happen =]


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## MakeShift Heart

I guess we can all agree to disagree then.


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## Locket

MakeShift Heart said:


> I guess we can all agree to disagree then.


I am not meaning to attack you or bash you in any way. This is an HONESTLY curious question.

In this particular instance, the fox pups were at an age where they could have and would have adjusted well to a wild life reserve, yet you support your friend in her attempt to raise these guys as pets.
As a fox lover, why do you view their potential domestication as a positive thing? 

If you don't want to answer, that's fine. I'm just curious.


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## MakeShift Heart

Because I see nothing wrong with it.

They are well taken care of, and are extremely happy with her. She meets all of their needs so I don't see any harm with what she is doing. 

They were born in captivity, raised in captivity, so they really don't know any other lifestyle.


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## Keithsomething

if being born in captivity means that an animal can be a pet, what are your views on the people that keep large cats a pets? are they similar to your views on the foxes as well...I mean they were born in captivity so obviously they couldn't be placed back into the wild...

with the proper care ANY animal can be rehabilitated and placed back where it belongs; the wild

call your local Wildlife services and ask them what they think about keeping a pet fox ((or any other wild animal)) and I'm sure they'll be saying pretty much what I have


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## MakeShift Heart

I'm sorry that I will never agree that there is something wrong with owning a fox as a pet. 

The Fennec Fox has been pets for a LONG time and never once have I heard anyone having problems with it.

I've seen several videos and photos of red foxes that were actually ADOPTED FROM the wild as an orphan coming in as pets and never once have I seen problems with it.

Yes I do know there is the chance of issues, but there's the chance of issues from owning dogs as well.

These two don't act different from a dog at all.

And as far as big cats go, my opinion is I'd never own something that can overpower me period.

And I'm really tired of beating a dead horse here, our opinions will not change.


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## Keithsomething

MakeShift Heart said:


> And I'm really tired of beating a dead horse here, our opinions will not change.


which is sad...because when you're talking about an animal that belongs in the wild, and is being STRIPPED of all its natural instincts because people like you and your friend want cute pets...its just an overtly depressing thing to me


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## Fluffyspoos

Keithsomething said:


> which is sad...because when you're talking about an animal that belongs in the wild, and is being STRIPPED of all its natural instincts because people like you and your friend want cute pets...its just an overtly depressing thing to me


Agreed.

People only get wild animals for pets (even 'domesticated') because they either think they are pretty and want to own a pretty animal, or rationalize that they are 'saving' the animal because they think it's 'cute'. Whatever way you put it, it isn't right. Even people that rehabilitate wild animals and raise them in their home, have the end goal of releasing them back into the wild and try to teach skills towards that goal.


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## Locket

Keithsomething said:


> which is sad...because when you're talking about an animal that belongs in the wild, and is being STRIPPED of all its natural instincts because people like you and your friend want cute pets...its just an overtly depressing thing to me





Fluffyspoos said:


> Agreed.
> 
> People only get wild animals for pets (even 'domesticated') because they either think they are pretty and want to own a pretty animal, or rationalize that they are 'saving' the animal because they think it's 'cute'. Whatever way you put it, it isn't right. Even people that rehabilitate wild animals and raise them in their home, have the end goal of releasing them back into the wild and try to teach skills towards that goal.


While I agree with you both, I do not think it is safe for animals that have been raised by humans to be released back into the wild. A wildlife reserve would be ideal, but it is NOT safe for an animal that is comfortable around humans to be released into the REAL wild.


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## Fluffyspoos

I don't mean complete raising, I mean like.. where they get them to where they can start eating on their own, then move them to an outdoor enclosure in the wild, then release them when they're adults from there. Most keep human contact to a minimum to avoid having a run in with people.


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## Spencer

Keithsomething said:


> you and me both v.v
> 
> but according to NASA, we'll be living on the moons of Mars so...maybe it won't happen =]


And most likely by then humans will have killed off most wild species of animals/insects/e'rything anyway. So we should all just stop trying to domesticate new animals now and save ourselves the time!

Woo hoo Marsssss!

I hope the future is somewhat like Ender's Game and I could a) live that long and b) go to battle school oh and minus the giant bugs wanting to kill the human race. What whaaaaat!

--------------

On a serious note, however... I think if these foxes were born in captivity and raised in captivity before your friend got them and they really are unable to fend for themselves in the wild due to that fact, then possibly the best place for them to live would be a zoo - where there are humans who do take care of and mildly interact with them, but also where they are trained to do so. Or like someone said, possibly a wildlife preserve. 

In the 7th grade, my school did a thing where you went and had a "career" for a week. I got sent to the vet's office. There were three raccoon babies just old enough to squeak and squeal and scoot around - but we weren't allowed to love on them or play with them for the simple fact that they were raccoon babies. They needed to be in the wild for their own good, and were going to be handled with that in mind. I've heard of people having raccoons and opossums for pets before, too, but that doesn't mean that it is necessarily the correct thing. 

If you want a unique dog-like pet, get a rare breed of dog, ya know? Perk is, it's already domesticated! I'm an animal lover, myself, and would rescue anything that needed rescuing (my dad lifted me on his shoulders up to our CLOGGED GUTTER like two years ago ,while I was wearing his working gloves and I was cradling a bird that had fallen out of it's nest, so that I could put it back up in the gutter where it's parents were so they could keep clogging our gutter!), but I don't think that gives anyone right to keep a wild animal somewhat hostage in an environment they were never meant to be in - no matter how much they seem to like it. Wild is wild, and there isn't much you can change about that.


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## spoowhisperer

Like *Spencer* has said, these Foxes were born in captivity, and had been for multiple generations. I am not advocating adopting wildlife in any shape way or form, but lets not attack like these people have snatched Fox pups from its mother's den in the wild. 
Have you ever visited a Fox farm? Long runs of small cage after small cage, Foxes waiting for the optimum size before they are dispatched. That is not what I would call a good life either. I can see how people would get caught up in thinking they could provide a better home for one or two of the more domesticated pups. My heart would be tugged too! But it is never a normal life for a Fox in person's life, and it never will be a _normal_ pet in a persons life.
I posted a link to the Russian study that was a documentary, I hope some of you read it, and I sure wish you would have had a chance to watch it, is no longer available to view. In the info, you really do see after the 50 year study that by choosing the Foxes that show the least amount of fear to humans, or even show some affection towards humans, to breed throughout he years, they really do breed out the aggression and _wild_ tendencies. This was a study mind you, not to make pets. Not only did these Foxes lose their fear of humans, but through the years of breeding them they also physically started to change. Color patterns started to show up, like the one in this thread, tails started to be held up like a husky, ears started do drop and on and on.
Regarding this thread, and these adopted Foxes, do they have a better life than what they had? I don't know. The big area they seem to be living in sure looks more comfortable than a tiny wire cage they await death in. I'm sure its still stressful, any animal that isn't living the life they are meant to, and is living in captivity must be a zombie life, not really living but not dead.
I can see why these girl think they can provide a rescue and a better life. But for anyone who brings a wild animal into their life, had better be highly educated and should have a license to ensure proper care, and to be aware these will never be pets.


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## Locket

Yes, they were born in captivity, but it's not like they were socialized or anything of the sort, with humans. Look at how YOUNG the pup is in the first picture. All I'm saying is that the pups could've easily adjusted to living in a wildlife preserve, and they do not belong in a home environment, and CERTAINLY do not belong out in public.

Sure, I guess being a pet is better than being a coat, but not by much.


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## spoowhisperer

Locket said:


> Yes, they were born in captivity, but it's not like they were socialized or anything of the sort, with humans. Look at how YOUNG the pup is in the first picture. All I'm saying is that the pups could've easily adjusted to living in a wildlife preserve, and they do not belong in a home environment, and CERTAINLY do not belong out in public.
> 
> Sure, I guess being a pet is better than being a coat, but not by much.


Being they have been breed for multiple generations in captivity, it may take years to put the wild back into them, I'm not sure its as easy to just release them back into the wild and have success. That also takes time and money and a organization willing to take on a project like that. Sickening isn't it? Nothing is ever easy, nor free.
I do absolutely agree these foxes should not be taken out in public, probably not safe, and certainly stressful for the fox.


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## MyGirlAbby

The strong opinions on this post have been expressed repeatedly but I believe your opinions would be better received if supported by data and statistics. I honestly went in search to find some to prove your very convincing argument I looked up the life of a re-introduced to the wild animal and a study revealed only 33% are successful. Some studies felt that number was much lower The rest die either by disease, starvation or predators. I personally dont feel it was an injustice to have domesticated other animals. Which domesticated animal do you feel so strongly for, the horse, the cat or perhaps..the dog?


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## MakeShift Heart

Axel has been brought out into public numerous times and isn't stressed. He walks on the leash just fine.

Neither of these foxes would be able to survive in the wild. Axel is too happy to see anything and everyone and would probably walk right up to a predator to say "Hi" and become lunch.

Xion doesn't blend in because her coat has no camouflage.

My friend does have a license to give the proper care to the animals, if she hadn't she would not have been able to adopt them period.


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## Locket

I (and I believe the others) are not proposing the animals be released into the WILD, but to be given to a wildlife preservation/rehabilitation center. The animals are still cared for and monitored by humans, but have very little direct contact with them. They are not at risk of being eaten by predators or dying of starvation, and it would be unlikely to contract a disease in these controlled environments. They live a simulated "wild" life. 

With all the abuse we inflict on the animals we have domesticated, yes I do feel it was an injustice to domesticate them. However, that was long long ago, and there's no turning them to the wild now, so I would rather help them and be the best owner I can be to give them the best life possible. Domesticating a wild species, with all the evidence of our neglect to the currect domesticated species, is selfish and completely unnecessary.


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## spoowhisperer

MyGirlAbby said:


> The strong opinions on this post have been expressed repeatedly but I believe your opinions would be better received if supported by data and statistics. I honestly went in search to find some to prove your very convincing argument I looked up the life of a re-introduced to the wild animal and a study revealed only 33% are successful. Some studies felt that number was much lower The rest die either by disease, starvation or predators. I personally dont feel it was an injustice to have domesticated other animals. Which domesticated animal do you feel so strongly for, the horse, the cat or perhaps..the dog?


This is kind of my point too. Releasing an animal that has never had to fend for itself, back into the wild, is not doing it any favors. Its much more complicated than that. Wish there was an easy answer, that put all wrongs to right. No more Fox farms would be the first right.


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## MakeShift Heart

If these foxes were given to a preserve I'm almost certain they would die of a broken heart. They love my friend to death that if she doesn't give them attention for a whole day they become sad and won't eat, and even cry for her.

How do you think your dog would feel if you dumped it into a facility with strangers you've never met and was suddenly given very little human contact that it's so used to?

That's exactly how these guys would feel.


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## Locket

MakeShift Heart said:


> If these foxes were given to a preserve I'm almost certain they would die of a broken heart. They love my friend to death that if she doesn't give them attention for a whole day they become sad and won't eat, and even cry for her.


This is a BAD thing. They are seriously dependent on her. That is dangerous.



> How do you think your dog would feel if you dumped it into a facility with strangers you've never met and was suddenly given very little human contact that it's so used to?
> 
> That's exactly how these guys would feel.


Well ya, it's too late now. But had they been given to a preservation as the tiny pups when your friend got them, they would have been able to adjust quite well.


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## MakeShift Heart

I'll be sure not to share anymore exciting adventures from them since I can see it bothers people.

Sorry I caused an argument.


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## spoowhisperer

MakeShift Heart said:


> If these foxes were given to a preserve I'm almost certain they would die of a broken heart. They love my friend to death that if she doesn't give them attention for a whole day they become sad and won't eat, and even cry for her.
> 
> How do you think your dog would feel if you dumped it into a facility with strangers you've never met and was suddenly given very little human contact that it's so used to?
> 
> That's exactly how these guys would feel.


You and your friend are in a very unusual relationship with something that most of us will never experience. I know your friend feels she is doing her best for them, and I do believe you her Foxes look to her for some sort of contact, food, relief of boredom.
Where so many of us get into trouble with animals, myself included, is we put our human emotions onto a animal. That gets us and the animals into trouble. We can't _think_ what a Fox may feel. Animals are released in preserves all the time, within the right parameters of that particular animal being ready. It requires a lot of time from people who know what they are doing, but it can be done.
Your friend has these Foxes now, I'm hoping she knows everything she possibly can about them, and continues to learn. But I would hope you also learn you can't put human emotions on an animal. I'm not trying to be cruel in saying that, really I'm not, it is just a fact.


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## spoowhisperer

MakeShift Heart said:


> I'll be sure not to share anymore exciting adventures from them since I can see it bothers people.
> 
> Sorry I caused an argument.


Hey, you were trying to share something that you thought people would be interested in, and you got back fired on. I'm sorry about that. People are very passionate about what they feel, and often strong words convey that.
Please read through the strong words, and see how these people who are also animal lovers, and would not take on a Fox as a pet, and why they wouldn't. If this is something you are truly passionate about, I hope your really dig in and do your homework and maybe you will be the one to someday in your area really change things for Foxes who come from the death farms!
You can do it! : )


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## MyGirlAbby

spoowhisperer said:


> You and your friend are in a very unusual relationship with something that most of us will never experience. I know your friend feels she is doing her best for them, and I do believe you her Foxes look to her for some sort of contact, food, relief of boredom.
> Where so many of us get into trouble with animals, myself included, is we put our human emotions onto a animal. That gets us and the animals into trouble. We can't _think_ what a Fox may feel. Animals are released in preserves all the time, within the right parameters of that particular animal being ready. It requires a lot of time from people who know what they are doing, but it can be done.
> Your friend has these Foxes now, I'm hoping she knows everything she possibly can about them, and continues to learn. But I would hope you also learn you can't put human emotions on an animal. I'm not trying to be cruel in saying that, really I'm not, it is just a fact.


Yes! I do that too! I know I put Human emotions on my dogs. I was listening to a radio show once that stated dogs really only have relationships with humans because they count on us for food. My husband and I debated on this point as he agreed with David Lee Roth ( yes ..he said it!)


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## Keithsomething

having a permit to own an exotic animal doesn't mean you SHOULD own that animal...does your friend have an education that backs this permit?...I'm going to say no as an assumption because you said she takes them out on leashes and any one who has taken ONE wildlife class would know thats just dangerous and FOOLISH

what if this fox were to bite someone, a child maybe?
what if it got loose and was lost? clearly from your perception of it the thing wouldn't be able to survive without a human presence
irresponsible is the word for this situation,

I'm not saying just chuck the things out the door and see how they do, your friend should do the proper thing and donate them to a wildlife center/zoo (if they're so far removed from the wild) that can treat them like foxes that could possibly educate young children that wild animals are wild for a reason they aren't meant to be kept as pets...such as these foxes are

I called my friend last night, the one who has Lisa the Raccoon, well it turns out Lisa has a bone disease that would kill her in the wild because she wouldn't have access to the proper medication she needs...so Lisa will be living the remainder of her life in a nice PRESERVE where she will live like a normal raccoon but she'll have a modified diet that will keep her safe and healthy...

can I ask where the baby photos of the foxes came from? if she rescued them how did she acquire days old photos of the foxes?


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## MakeShift Heart

This whole thing has gotten way out of hand and quite honestly I'm sick of discussing it.

I understand you don't want her having the foxes but that's not going to change anything so to continue to discuss this would be meaningless and pointless.

I'm done talking here I've asked for this thread to be locked three days ago and I'm not sure why it hasn't been done yet.


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## Keithsomething

MakeShift Heart said:


> This whole thing has gotten way out of hand and quite honestly I'm sick of discussing it.
> 
> I understand you don't want her having the foxes but that's not going to change anything so to continue to discuss this would be meaningless and pointless.
> 
> I'm done talking here I've asked for this thread to be locked three days ago and I'm not sure why it hasn't been done yet.


well maybe it hasn't been locked because no ones been attacked...or you haven't contacted the admin and mod?

and again such a sad moot point that you're ok with your friend making pets of these animals v.v;


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## Locket

We are continuing to discuss it because you do not seem to be understanding any of our VERY VALID points as to why it is DANGEROUS and INHUMANE to keep WILD animals as PETS. The thread has not been closed because this is not an argument, but a discussion...I'm sorry you do not see it that way.

All you are focusing on is that fact that nothing can be done about the current situation. Okay, we get that!
I'm sorry if all you wanted was "Oh how cute!! I want a fox as a pet too!" comments, but you specifically said in your first post that we could ask questions. We asked questions!

If all you got out of this was that we don't want your friend to have foxes, then that is sad.


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## Spencer

MakeShift Heart said:


> I'll be sure not to share anymore exciting adventures from them since I can see it bothers people.
> 
> Sorry I caused an argument.





MakeShift Heart said:


> This whole thing has gotten way out of hand and quite honestly I'm sick of discussing it.
> 
> I understand you don't want her having the foxes but that's not going to change anything so to continue to discuss this would be meaningless and pointless.
> 
> I'm done talking here I've asked for this thread to be locked three days ago and I'm not sure why it hasn't been done yet.


A) Don't be dramatic. This is not an argument or even a heated debate. It is a discussion. No one has gotten angry or pissy with anyone.

B) If you're sick of discussing it, stop replying. If we care to, we will continue to talk about the point amongst ourselves without your input. No one is twisting your arm to reply.

C) As much as it kills me to say so, I have to agree with Keith this ONE TIME... there is no reason for the thread to be closed that I can see. No one is attacking you, you're not attacking others. I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt that we weren't as gung ho about your friend owning the foxes as you are. They are beautiful animals, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion as to what is right and wrong, and obviously yourself and other members of this public forum stand on different sides of that line.

I don't agree with keeping them as pets, BUT I do hope for their well being, health, and happiness in the future, and am glad your friend got them out of a bad situation and sincerely hope that she has not put them in one of a different sort.

et fin


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## Keithsomething

Spencer said:


> C) As much as it kills me to say so, I have to agree with Keith this ONE TIME...


MUAHAHAHAHA
-opens door to the dark side- :spy:
Welcome Spencer...welcome <333
:welcome:


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