# Kiwi and Cheerio



## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I was writing about our walks on the main forum, but realized the topic was veering off topic since my pooches are not poodles. I thought it would be better to take our walks and training to a thread over here. 

My husband holds Cheerio's leash on walks because he behaves for him. I knew I was going to start from scratch to make sure he stopped pulling for me. I have not used the clicker for years, but got it out and "loaded" it. We went for a 4 block walk just to train. The last 1.5 blocks he only tightened the leash twice. It was not even actual pulling. He is our barker so we will practice walking by dogs next, but he did great passing people (not unusual) and our neighbor dog (unusual). We did a short practice in the house today and he was perfect so I'm hopeful he was re-trained over night. lol

When I loaded the clicker for Cheerio last night, Kiwi was scared of the clicker. Its a cheap PetSmart one that is pretty loud. (I hear the karen pylor one is quieter?) This morning she did not seem to react to it. We went for a short walk this morning. She has always refused treats while out and about. Too nervous out of the house. (rescue dog with hardly any human contact her first 6 months) However today after we loaded the clicker in our culture-de-sac, a stretch of her comfort zone anyway, we walked to the track, around once and back home and she took treats the WHOLE TIME! We walked past a barking dog, who she normally just ignores, and she took several treats. I was shocked.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Progress is made! Top marks to Cheerio, Kiwi and you for your training walk. P.S. What cute names


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

Wrote this last night and forgot to submit it. oops.

Thanks! We have a food theme for dogs names. Our first was named Ruben. Kiwi was the nick name my husband gave her. Her name was suppose to be Keely but Kiwi took over from the start. And Cheerio is the color of a cheerio! I not sure if we are keeping the food theme going for the eventual spoo or not. It might change to literary names. I loooove Luna, but there are Luna's everywhere. I want something semi original. You know, like 1 in a million in the US, not 1 in a million in China. lol

Tonight was a couple short training walks. I took Cheerio first. We did 6 blocks and he did practically perfect on the walk back. Baby and her sibling was out. She is a old pudgy dog who can barely waddle. Her owners don't leash her when in their yard with them. Cheerio let out a woof when he saw her but went back watching me to see when he treat was coming. Because the dog distraction was out, I took Kiwi out again. We were almost to the house when Kiwi crossed in front of me and stopped to poop. I ran into her and was close to falling but we all recovered with no poop smearing. When we reached the dog, I had the poop bag in the clicker hand and it muffled the click, so I marked it with good dog. She refused to take the treat and looked slightly stressed, but perked right up once we passed and I clicked. She took that treat. Not sure if it was the stressor or no click that caused her not to take the treat. 

I'm not sure if she will be ready, but I really want to try taking her to a bike trail walk in a nearby city and then to the farmers market on Sat. I have never been there on a Sat, but it was pretty empty tonight. I think if she does well with passing dogs tomorrow, I take her sat. If she stresses and refuses to eat, I'll wait. 

I am seriously impressed with how well these last 2 days have gone. We had a few people over, and Cheerio has a 50% barking rate. He did so great on the first few distractions (me and dogs inside, people making noise and talking outside the door) that I stepped it up to seeing people through the door next. It was just a bit too soon I think. Plus I was not totally prepared, so I probably would have done it more slowly next time.


Today- 
Kiwi did a almost 4 mile walk today. Mostly at the track with my friend, but we walk the 3 blocks there and back too) Since she loose leashes well, we worked on slowing down. Quite silly seeing how she rather be slow normally, but I have been watching her body language and wanted to use it in training. We walked past Dakota, the great dane, and Kiwi normally does fine with her. Today I noticed her tail went from relaxed position to a slightly higher "i'm in charge" (considered dominate or threatening when straight up) position. It was not close to straight up, but it was elevated more than it had been while she was relaxed just the 3 blocks previous. She also was trying to speed walk past with a tight and a tiny bit pulling leash. So I got her to pay attention to me by working on "whoa." After a few times of me inching along and her matching pace, she could hear (ear twitching) and even look at Dakota and her tail stayed in relaxed position. 

I also watched a Stanley Coren lecture last night, which caused me to notice the difference between a relaxed tail and a "dominate". I'm still not sure the difference between the straight up tail and a playful tail. I'm fairly certain Kiwi's tail is wagging higher set when she wrestles around with Cheerio, but it is always started with a play bow. I need to watch the video every night until I can repeat all the cues and their meanings without looking at notes. I know ear positions can also add to meaning of everything, but its hard to keep track of everything! lol This time her tail going up was corresponding to misbehavior, so it needed to be corrected. Wether she was worked up over being in charge or wanting to play, a walk was not the time. Then all this tail talk leads me to think about Cheerio. He is a min pin with a docked tail and it is always up. I don't know if the lack of tail effected how he holds his muscles, but if he is holding it up, it totally makes sense with his barking problem. He want to be in charge. I'm going to keep watching his tail and see if I observe anything. While watching ears... mouths... and the body in general too. haha. 

So on to Cheerio. We had a friend over helping put in our front rail. They have had issues with bits and such so he has been over most nights and Cheerio has been wonderful hearing him talk and working with the door closed, but not with the door open as mentioned above. So today I took Cheerio outside with him while they worked. In the end we were doing pretty good but it took a long time to get there because I kept accidentally reinforcing the barking. Gah! We finally got a rhythm going by the end and I figured it out. What finally worked with me walking backwards and him following me. When his back was to the guy it was his break from visual stimulus. I rewarded not reacting to sounds in the beginning and as time went on I did it interminably. He was not struggling with sounds at all, but I figure it was setting him up for succeeding, so it was good. When he was facing the guy and my back was towards the guy, Cheerio would mainly watch me with quick little peeks at the guy. There was lots of small short barks (ooo-fff - like when they bark under their breath.) We walked towards him, but stayed pretty far away. Then still keeping our distance, we walked past him. This started the ooo-fffs all over again. We worked our way to being only about 10 feet away. We ended up doing a rapid fire click and treat. He kept looking at him and back at me (and not the treat hand!) so I clicked each look at him and we did 20 some treats in about 30 some seconds. After that we could get as close as 5 feet and got 2 ooo-fffs during the last 5 minutes or so. 

I'm disappointed to say I think the railing will be up today and I'll have to come up with a new person to come make noise while we train. I don't know many dog people and my closer friends either have a thousand kids to keep up with are actually scared of dog, so limited options. I do know several farms we can go to to train, but I still need to teach him this skill at home. And I need to find time to escape to go to said farms without kids.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I took him out again after typing that out. We had a few barks when the guy laughed, but by the third one Cheerio was good again. Within 5-10 minutes the guy could walk a couple feet from us and then shortly after worked on something inches from Cheerio. He sniffed and then looked at me for his treat. lol. At least he does not at my treat hand, and actually looks up at my face. I also watched his tail more this go around and realized it was actually often a relaxed position.

We came in and the boys ate. Then I opened the front door. We got a few ooo-fffs and then he just ignored the door to watch me for a treat. Eventually I played with the door to make some noise. I even walked outside and talked to them and came in with no barking. 

We have tried positive reinforcement (clicking and voice marking) to get him to stop barking at people over the years, but the reason it never worked was because we never started small. We always jumped into the big stuff and set ourselves up not to succeed. I did start small earlier this week with praising him for not barking at the noise outside. Then rewarding the walk. Then rewarding in the front yard. And finally by rewarding from inside. He did so well that I am hopeful we can work on inviting people into the house later next week. I'll keep doing evening walks with distractions, and play with the door, doorbell and knocking, and see about a couple field trips if we don't find any distractions on our walks. 

OH! and since laughing triggered a response, I tried playing some male laughter on Youtube, but I think he knew it was fake. lol I clicked for ear twitching towards the sounds though. He totally thought the barking dogs were real though, and the doorbell one sent his head flying up to see what was going on. No barking or ooo-fffs. This was the video I watched that made me realize I was not starting small enough previously and that by accidentally starting out that way this time, we could keep making small steps towards our final goal and actually achieve it.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I decided not to bring Kiwi today. It turned out there were tons of dogs, so I am glad. We need to warm up to it.

I read most of On Talking Terms with Dogs: Calming Signals today. EVERYONE NEEDS TO READ IT! It is amazing. I have picked up some info on calming signals here and there with the other dogs books I have read, but it was nice to have it all laid out in one spot. 

Kiwi started a new behavior. She whines and cries when we are outside and she is not with us. Specifically, as we work on the front landscape. She is not a fan of being left in the house, in the backyard or kenneled. (right or wrong) I blame it on the fact that she goes for a long walk everyday and sometimes 2 ro 3 short training walks as well and thinks she needs to be out whenever I leave the house. 

I was not ready to deal with stopping that yet, so I put her on a leach and connected it to the front railing. Every once in a while I would got back and give her a treat. Towards the end of our time outside she saw me coming, gave a tiny bow, turned her head away and lowered her tail. I can't look back and figure out what was going on that would make her nervous. The kids were especially loud, running round behind us, but nothing out of the norm. Either way, I changed my straight on path to a curved C path and looked away from her. She was happy and ready to accept a treat when I got there. I started this path to understanding dogs in Feb and slowly have been learning and changing, but this book seems to really open up the gates of knowledge. The more I am able to keep them at ease, the more likely they are to listen to me and they actually do the things I ask of them.

We are working on reinforcing calm behavior around the house. I have been trying to catch them laying down and give them a treat, but it is hard when they pop up every time I move. 





I'm doing crate games with them and working on having Cheerio sit in the back of the kennel. He likes to paw the kennel waiting for us to open it. (I mistakenly taught him shake as one of his first tricks as a pup and now he waves his paw around for everything. We have a few areas to work on it in) It's not terrible like my late Rueben who had anxieties up the wazoo (which the more I read, the more I see how I exacerbated them:sad: ) but it's not polite manors. I don't want to have to tell him to sit for him to stop. I want to teach the connect of me coming to open the kennel with him sitting. 

I'm working on dropping the uh-uh for a positive interrupter (clicking noises). At 9pm they saw something in the back yard and they each got a bark out and were in full sprint to the patio door when I started clicking. The stopped on a dime and came to me. I gave them tons of treats and sat in awe of how well that worked. 





The last thing I have not started yet, but really need to is to work on his marking. If we keep the baby gate closed so he does not go into bedrooms, the laundry/mud/pantry door closed, never set bags and new items on the floor or hang coats on the back of chairs or door knobs, we don't have an issue. To be honest, most of the rules are pretty handy to have in place with a toddler running around too, so it does not seem to make life harder. He very rarely marks; however, it once again is not good manners and I want to fix it. 

In the past I have not let him out of my sight, keeping him connected to me on a leash or in the kennel so I can whisk him outside to pee if he marks. Problem is he, of course, never marked. After a few long weeks I would let him be free IF I was able to keep a good eye on him. The I could catch him in the act (it was totally entrapment because I put things down he would want to mark so I could finally correct the behavior) and whisked him outside. So why did he not get it? Because i'm an idiot! lol I never went outside with him and treated him for potting outside. He knew the "go potty" commend so I would say it like normal, send him out and then treated him when he came back to the door to get in. I did a really great job at teaching him to come in is a good thing. :argh: Incidentally, he has pretty amazing recall and even if the gate is left open, he prefers to sit on our patio furniture waiting to get in rather than to go explore, so I guess it was not all bad. :aetsch: I just need to tape a sign on the patio door to remind myself to go out with him every time to click and treat because I never remember.

I feel embarrassed by my history of training dogs (or rather, lack of having a trained dog) when I love and devote so much time to them. I can think back and do a ton of "if only" but that would do me no good. I can't change it however, you can teach an old dog new tricks as evident in not only my actually training my old dogs (almost 10 and 11) but by getting myself to learn new ways! 

So much more I could add, but for now, I'm sleep and should go to bed.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I was going to bed but I suddenly hear a plastic bag crinkling. Cheerio had found the chocolate graham crackers I hid underneath the end table when a kid got up from nap time too soon and I did not want to share. I had forgotten about them. I was going to say uh-uh, then remembered I was not going to do that. I'm trying to remember what to do and keeping myself from lunging at him (he can't pull them out easily so in no immediate danger from the chocolate, but the urge to get them is strong) when I remembered to make the clicking noises. His head shot up from behind the end table, "what's up, Mom?" he seemed to be saying. I should have praised him for eye contact, but forgot. I did keep making the noise and he can around the table to me and I gave him lots of treats and praise. Irony is the treat bag was open and right above the gram crackers so if he wanted to sneak some food, it would have been easier and less nosey to sneak them! lol

My excitement over him coming to me brought Kiwi as well, so we did some sit, down, stand drills. They still don't know stand very well, but they did really well at following my cues. They do know twirl and rollover and both of those normally joined the trick line up. Whenever I have tried to teach sit, down, stand, we always get twirls in place of stands and a few rollovers after laying down. We had ZERO this time! wooooo! There are 2 differences between this time and the previous attempts. I was sitting on the sofa and not standing (and bending over them to give treats?) and I used a clicker instead of the marker word "good." They seem to respond so much better when a clicker is used.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

This morning Kiwi was all set to go after a cat. No barking but there was some big time pulling. We have been training nonstop. We are making progress, little bits at a time but I'm so mentally tired. lol This is why when we get a poodle we are looking for an adult! I bet all the work I am putting into these two are pretty close to keeping up with one pup. Plus my 1yo human covers the over night waking. However, if I can make it through with these two, I'll at least know that if we have to, I can handle the dedication to raising a pup.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

Yesterday - PetSmart adventure
We went on a road trip to the big city and so we got to work on going into petsmart. She has shook and refused treats in the past. The thing reading these behavior books have taught me is that I never start small enough or go slow enough for Kiwi's fearful behavior. We must go the rate the dog wants.

We parked the van in the back of the parking lot. I had her do some tricks in the van with me standing outside. Click and treat, click and treat. Then we walked the outside of the parking lot, making our way towards the potty yard and then onto the door. She took treats up until after the potting in the potty yard. We walked back to the van and redid the click and treat in her comfortable spot. Then we walked the route again and she took treats right until she sniffed a popular marking spot near the door. Then the door opened and she got scared. We walked past the door and rounded back to the van.*

The third time we made our out and went*way past the door again, she did not startle. We stopped a distance away and I got her to sit. She then saw two boys my boys' ages and got excited. So we followed them inside. We walked up and down isles and she took treats! I'm not sure she would have been ready to go inside if it were not for those boys. Eventually we met up with a scottie with no manners. He came charging up to her. She looked away and then lowered her self to the ground (both calming signals). When the dog did not look away and walked right up to her, I gave the signal to follow me and we walked down another isle. I yawned (calming signal) and she took a treat. We then made our way outside and back to the van.*


Kiwi has only once been to my IL's new house. It was very brief visit. So today I took her for a 8 block walk. By watching her tail, I could tell she was not as relaxed as she normally is around our neighborhood, but we passed several dogs and she never barked. In fact, she looked ready to go play. Her tail got high and her ears perked up (as much as floppy beagle ears can). One place had a booming low bark echoing out from the garage as we passed. Guess who jumped? It was me, not her! I got a good chuckle out of that.*After 4 or 5 blocks she seemed back to her relaxed self.*We walked past men working in the yard with tools and odd sounds and she simply looked at them and kept walking.*

We are doing so much training that I struggle to fit everything in, but I think I am going to try and walk her in nearby towns around us so she can work on new neighborhoods and unpredictable encounters. After my one day of feeling so mentally tried I wanted to give up on training, I have felt back to normal and we are getting lots of training in. I have focused mostly on Kiwi, and now need to up my training with Cheerio. If I could just get him to stop pulling, I would walk both together and cut down on training time. 

Today, Cheerio walked a half mile. We stopped every couple feet on the first half of the walk and then when we turned around and walked back on the other side of the block, he only pulled once or twice. A short while later I took him out again around the cut-de-sac and once again, first half he pull and we stopped frequently, and the second half he was amazing.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes, training can be mentally draining especially when there are so many other mentally draining responsibilities to attend to. Stick with it and keep up the good work - it will pay you back!


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

Training has been going well. Kiwi is taking massive strides with her fearfulness. We have gone to the state park and she got to check out the river for the first time. We are now working on pulling because I guess her timidness was the real reason she walked by my side. She wants to play with every dog we see. Thankfully that is not when she pulls though. She pulls when she wants me to catch up with my husband and stroller or just to hurry up and get to the next sniffing spot. The other day we walked 3 miles in the morning and then 2 miles in the evening, but the end of the walk we ran 2 different times to catch up (as long as she did not pull) and she ran faster than me. She was quite literally frolicking. I can't believe a few months ago she dragged her feet the last half of a mile. 

We went to a town outdoor event. She did great as we walked up and she was met with people, and loud tractors. Then the loud speakers started playing music. She started shaking. We went to a safe zone and tried to come back to the event from a new angle, but she always started shaking again. She would take treats about 75% of the time. She would take treats 100% of the time from kids. She loved all the kids who came to pet her. We hung out at the bounce house and barrel ride, so she got lots of attention. 

And the best part of the night? I met a local standard poodle! He was not all thrilled about the music either and he (I missed his name) and Kiwi sat 5 feet from each other and ignored each other while the humans talked. They raved about how smart and willing to learn he was. I have seen the daughter (my age - 30ish) walking the poodle twice, but in a town of 600 people, I assumed it was a dog from a visiting family. I'm excited to get to run into them again. I have to admit to being kinda star struck and did not ask any important questions.... you know like if they would be up for a playdate! lol

Last night I started Susan Garrett's It's Yer Choice workshop. Amazingly Cheerio has picked it right up and is offering great behaviors. Kiwi is pretty dense. She just sits and stares at the treats. I refuse to give a treat unless she looks at me. Slowly but surely we will get there. Just 3 small sessions has decreased Cheerio's jumping to get inside by 10 fold. Not too long ago I actually waited 30 minutes for him to offer a sit and say there before letting him in. I also found out that I was giving small rewards along the way, so the poor guy was getting lots of mixed messages. I'm about to go and work on this again, so one last update.

We started Cheerio on prey model raw. We tried Kiwi too but she just played with it. I'm going to try some tricks to get her to eat it, but I might as well let her finish off the kibble first. Cheerio took right to it. He needs to gain weight and work on chewing for dental benefits, so I'm glad he enjoys it. We started with just thigh meat, then added a chicken foot and a tiny heart and today he gets a thigh with a bone. His training treats are dehydrated liver so he does get a small amount. A local farmer's wife is dropping off some beef and pork liver so I'll try it raw in a few days. I'm still working out were to get the best deals, and need to source some green tripe and fish. If I run out of luck with local butchers, I'll hop online.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I thought I should finally get around to adding some photos. Here is Kiwi and her first encounter with water. She stayed back and very low to the ground. 








Her second time was later that week and she walked right up with me and put her front feet in without issue. She even had to deal with waves this time as well. They did not phase her.


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

This past week we have been doing IYC. Kiwi is slowly picking it up, but when she gets it, it sticks. Cheerio is quick to pick up something the first time, and then gets frustrated later. I need to video our training sessions to see what I'm doing that changes things. Maybe progressing too fast or not fast enough and he gets board?

For Kiwi, I have to do it every hour, on top of practicing it when going in and out the door, out the kennel, and when giving meals. Waiting for food is new to her, but she never was the jumping around and on me type, so its no biggie. Everyday kennel and door interaction is not hard for her, but if we take Cheerio outside and not her, she whines something fierce. We have been struggling find times to practice this when no one is sleeping and my 18m is preoccupied so he does not charge the door. I just need to make a time in the day and do it no matter what.

She has let me put treats on her paw and we are working on me tossing treats between her paws (under her head) and her not taking them. We also use the full treat container of yummy dehydrated liver to tempt her. Next will be a pile of it on the floor. If we do this training hourly, she no longer counter surfs. I have also been leaving food on plates or my coffee/tea glass down while still in view and they do pretty well at leaving it.

Cheerio does better about leaving plates alone, but struggles with food on his paw (he moves so it falls off). We keep trying and I always make sure to end it on a positive note. Currently the open container of treats has been sitting a foot from his head but he just keeps napping, observing, and napping again. 

I've enjoyed IYC so much that I am signing up for Recallers this week. I just need to finish getting the last of the money together!


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

oh, and more photos

This one shows how skinny Cheerio was 2 weeks ago. PMR is already doing him some good. I'll be excited to post a photo in a couple weeks for his one month progress pic.








From the right angle he does not look too bad!








Our short term goal is to get 2 pounds off Kiwi. Possibly 2 more after that. I can feel her ribs along the bottom, but it takes a bit of pushing to feel them on top. She is widely built and not slim like a normal beagle build so her weight won't fit on the typical weight range. 15" female should be 20-22 but I don't think she will go below 24. Thankfully this extra weight does not slow her down. I've impressed many vets with the fact that she can jump onto bar stools!


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