# Achieving gray skin on white/cream dogs



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

So I know when you first shave a show dog into the CC, their skin is pink and they need sun to tan it up.

But what about the faces and necks? Same thing?

I adore this womans poodles, they are gorgeous, just LOOK at that skin! How do I get this skin color? >_>

Olivia Windswept | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Vienna is pinkish gray under her neck, its very pink right after shaving. I don't know if she's sensitive or what, but she doesn't scratch.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't have the answer to your question...but I did just spend an obscene amount of time obsessing over that lady's poodles! Wow!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I know right? Suuuuch beautiful dogs.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

To be honest, you won't get the grey skin if her skin doesn't have the pigment for it! Yes, tanning comes into it, but you know how really fair skinned people can hardly ever hold much tan at all, but others go golden quite easily; it's the same for dogs; some tan into the silvery grey skin more than others!

So, yes shaving it short, keeping it short, and letting her get plenty of out-doors time will enhance her pigment beyond a hairy face and no sun would, but it'll only be dark if she can be dark, which perhaps she can't.

Paris' pigment isn't too bad, but she's invariably fairly pinker on the sides of her shaved neck though, due to her ears shading it! lol


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## MericoX (Apr 19, 2009)

Tanning booth? Spray on tan? :loco:

Tsuki (silver) has that light white sometimes pink skin, more outside time seems to darker it at least a little bit.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Fluffy, FD is correct. 

If your girl does not have dark skin naturally, sunbathing will not change it much. 



> How do I get this skin color?


By very good and selective breeding that produces puppies with fantastic pigmentation.  Some white dogs can have VERY dark skin, almost black


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

V's skin is really dark, we're just not outside a ton because I dont like them tied up and tangling around each other. When the fence is up though..


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> So I know when you first shave a show dog into the CC, their skin is pink and they need sun to tan it up.
> 
> But what about the faces and necks? Same thing?
> 
> ...


I'll admit it - I don't get the whole pigment thing. By the way, check out the other pictures of Olivia. You'll see that her nose pigment is pretty much gone.

Anyway, I started out with a Thalia dog who had very dark sink and a black nose that held throughout his entire 15 years. See attached headshot of Raji. Sadly, he never passed on his dark skin and nose pigment. I'd say Raji's eye color was a dark brown, but not black.

Now I'm showing a dog whose pigment is very dark, almost a purplish/black hue - and that's everywhere, even on his belly where the sun doesn't shine.. His nose pigment is jet black, and there is no doubt in my mind that it will hold its color the rest of his life. His eye color is black. The picture shows the dog sopping wet. His skin is so dark that you can see it through his wet hair.

I just don't get it. I always thought that skin, nose, lip pigment and eye color were all tied to a "package" of genes. Experience now has taught me that I was wrong.

I also always thought that to improve nose and skin pigment, breed to a heterozygous black with a cream or white recessive. That has also proven not to be true.

Then I've heard that the only way to get better pigment is to breed to a cream or white dog who actually HAS excellent pigment. Hmm - never tried that.

This dog also has thick black stripes through every toenail. Do you think there's any connection to toenail color and pigment (nose, eye, skin)?

Any opinions out there?

Cynthia


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

*Same dog - better pictures of face pigment, nose pigment, eye color*



Cynthadia said:


> Now I'm showing a dog whose pigment is very dark, almost a purplish/black hue - and that's everywhere, even on his belly where the sun doesn't shine.. His nose pigment is jet black, and there is no doubt in my mind that it will hold its color the rest of his life. His eye color is black. The picture shows the dog sopping wet. His skin is so dark that you can see it through his wet hair.
> 
> 
> Here are two more pix of the same dog, but better shots of his nose pigment, skin pigment, and eye color.
> ...


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Could you show me a pic of Olivia where her pigment is gone? All the pictures I'm finding of her and her littermates have solid pigment still.

As far as nails go, I'm not so sure. My female has white nails, but solid black nose, lips, and pads.


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Could you show me a pic of Olivia where her pigment is gone? All the pictures I'm finding of her and her littermates have solid pigment still.
> 
> As far as nails go, I'm not so sure. My female has white nails, but solid black nose, lips, and pads.


Hey Fluff:

As soon as I posted the lost pigment part, I went back to the website to see if I could find the picture again so that if anyone asked, I could direct them to the right picture. What I thought I remembered was that it was a close-up head shot. I spent a good 20 minutes looking before I had to leave to go out to dinner. 

As soon as I came back from dinner, I renewed my search. Jeez, but after looking at at least 200 pictures (guesstimate), I gave up. I assumed, incorrectly, that the pictures were of the same bitch.

Here are the pictures I found (before giving up the chase) of dogs that had lost their pigment. Now, I have no idea if these dogs are even related to Olivia. Here are the captions or partial captions under each dog:

Taffy is getting ...
Pensive Moby
Reserve BIS
Wolly Girl
Rio at 2
Barbie smiling at me
Proud Saba
Torem
I got the Brock
Water girl
Pensive
You may rub my tummy
Flock of Poodles
Did you say treat
I am sooooo...

*Not one picture of a dog that lost nose pigment was of Olivia.* 

I apologize for my error and thanks for the heads-up, Fluff. 

Cynthia


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Perhaps it was just another picture of a dog with lost pigment you saw?  No harm done.

I don't know their pedigree, though from my untrained eye Tyler's dogs are gorgeous. I wonder how she keeps coat with all four of them playing.



Comparing dogs that keep their pigment for 9+ years before losing it, compared to a dog who's pigment faults after say.. 2 years, would you say it's environment, genetics, or both?


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Fluffyspoos;129657
Comparing dogs that keep their pigment for 9+ years before losing it said:


> Beats me! I can only speak from my own annectodal experience.
> 
> Now I have to think back on the whopping 4 litters I bred over a decade ago. If anyone's interested, I have no problem retaining my phone number from when I was a little kid in Chicago (Bayport 1-5320) 40+ years ago, but going back 10-12 years is dicey.
> 
> ...


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Pigment was discussed here many times before : )))! 

I do not know how it is passed down to the next generation , but I know for sure those things :

Good pigment never fades in the nose

Winter nose is result of "not so perfect" pigmentation - excellent pigmentation of the nose never fades (sun or no sun)


NO supplement will make a bad pigment good


It is absolutely genetic thing - same as it is with all other animals and humans. It is probably poligenic - which means that many genes determine the coloration working together and thus so many variations are possible and so many combinations and shades. Genes do not only determine the type of the pigment present but also " saturation" (how MUCH pigment is present in each cell). 

I think that your dog is very rare combination of actually a "black " dog with light hair - and I am sorry I forgot the name of well known Ch in the USA with that "combo" *sigh : (


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I think it was Keeper, Graphic Ghost :confused3:


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> I think it was Keeper, Graphic Ghost :confused3:


Interesting link between Nose pigment, and Toe nail colour .. hmm lol

Someone needs to keep track of this lol

What about whites/creams/apricots/reds who are born with black pigment vs. cream that went black..

It seems to me that dogs who are born with it on day 1, will keep it over the years to come... IDK lol


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> I think it was Keeper, Graphic Ghost :confused3:


How could you forget ??? LOL










"Keeper"
Ch. Graphic Ghost

Ch Graphic Blue Moon x Ch Graphic Metallica

1998 to 2009


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> Pigment was discussed here many times before : )))!
> 
> I do not know how it is passed down to the next generation , but I know for sure those things :
> 
> ...


Funny you should say "actually a black dog with ight hair" because I've thought the same thing. By the way, this dog lives with a family that does not have a fenced yard, so it's not like he spends hours every day catching rays.

About 20 years ago, there was a Pinafore specials dog that had the same sort of pigment like the dog I just showed you. I'm sure I've seen other dogs with the same black/dark purple pigment; I just don't remember where/when.

I finally got up the courage to climb a ladder in my storage area and retrieve my dogeared copy of "The Book of the Poodle" by Anna Katherine Nicholas. This book was published in 1980. 

I highly recommend to anyone who wants an OUTSTANDING book about Poodles to purchase this book if you can find it. 

ISBN number: 0-87666-736-1

As far as I know, the book only comes in hardcover. I don't feel like trying to find the name of the dog and puppy (Black standards) pictured on the cover, but I think it was Dhubne Darth Vader and one of his puppies.

One of the things that makes this book so awesome is Hayes Blake Hoyt's discussion of poodle qualities. 

_It is with boundless pride and pleasure that we have the honor of bringing you, as a special feature of this book, some most knowledgeable and interesting discussions of breed written by that eminent authority Hayes Blake Hoyte. Mrs. Hoyt's name has been practically a household word in the Poodle world for the past half century. She and her late husband, Sherman Reese Hoyt, attained success and the admiration of the whole dog show world with the quality of Poodles they raised for many, many years at Blakeen. When the breed was in the formative stage, the Hoyts imported the best from Europe and from England to breed with the finest American stock. their original Standards are still to be found far back in the pedigrees of the majority of leading Standards today. 

...

there are those who say that the fabulous white Standards were Blakee's greatest Poodles, Duc, Jung Frau, Eiger, and later on Bali Hai. 

...

"The Discussions With Mrs. Hoyt" which follow were originally done for use in a book she had been planning to write but never got around to finishing. Most of them were written in the 1960's, but the knowledgel expert advice, and Poodle observations they contain area just as correct and just as applicable now as they were then. We are especially thrilled with the color chapters and those on type, conformation, and character of the breed. "

Since we were discussing pigment, I thought for those of you who don't have the book that I would just type those pages verbatim. 

I'll start a new thread for each discussion topic. The first one will be "Mrs. Hoyt Discusses Color of the Poodle Skin"

Warning - although I type over 100 WPM, I'm not planning on proofreading my work (and this is from someone who ghost writes and edits for a living). So don't be surprised if you see some typos along the way. 

Here goes...

Cynthia
_


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

One of the Frostfire puppies had very nice pigment (at least as a puppy), and black nails:

http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8524-introducing-jorden-i-did-again.html#post107278

Good pigment on whites is one of my hobby horses. I'll take a bad black over a liver-nosed white any day...


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> One of the Frostfire puppies had very nice pigment (at least as a puppy), and black nails:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8524-introducing-jorden-i-did-again.html#post107278
> 
> Good pigment on whites is one of my hobby horses. I'll take a bad black over a liver-nosed white any day...


Lovely dark nose and just look at those toenails! I'd love to see the dog's shaved face to see the skin color.

If you saw the puppy with a shaved face, what color was it?

Cynthia


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> One of the Frostfire puppies had very nice pigment (at least as a puppy), and black nails:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8524-introducing-jorden-i-did-again.html#post107278
> 
> Good pigment on whites is one of my hobby horses. I'll take a bad black over a liver-nosed white any day...


This has been bugging me for days now. Some 20+ years ago, there was a women in Golden, Colorado who bred under the name Frostfire. I can't remember her name, but I do remember the name of the last dog she showed: Frosfire's Anteros (cream standard dog). I think I might even have a video of the dog.

Any connection between the two Frosfires?

Cynthia


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

In my limited experience with two litters that had Cream/White puppies, I noticed that the puppies BORN with black pigment kept their black pigment. The one puppy who was born with a pink nose that eventually blackened up, lost her pigment starting at around a year.

I think the very best way to get great pigment on Whites/Creams/Apricots/Reds is to only breed with and to Poodles with very dark pigment. If you breed a snow nose Poodle, you are going to have that issue in your line plain and simple and it sure seems like a bear to get rid of.


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

cbrand said:


> In my limited experience with two litters that had Cream/White puppies, I noticed that the puppies BORN with black pigment kept their black pigment. The one puppy who was born with a pink nose that eventually blackened up, lost her pigment starting at around a year.
> 
> I think the very best way to get great pigment on Whites/Creams/Apricots/Reds is to only breed with and to Poodles with very dark pigment. If you breed a snow nose Poodle, you are going to have that issue in your line plain and simple and it sure seems like a bear to get rid of.


First generation: Cream Thalia dog with excellent pigment bred to a black Rojean bitch
Second generation: Kept a black bitch out of above breeding and bred her to a Tiara dog. There were creams in that litter, but I have no info how their pigment turned out.
Third generation: Kept a black bitch out of above breeding and bred her to an Ascot dog. There were two creams out of that litter, both didn't hold their pigment.

So, I never bred what you refer to as a "snow nose poodle," yet that's exactly what I wound up with. 

Sure, I agree that if you're breeding a cream/white bitch with bad nose pigment to another cream or white, then make sure that you choose a stud that has excellent pigment.

However, if you're breeding a cream/white bitch with bad nose pigment to a heterozygous black, then it seems logical to me that you want to make sure that what's behind or lateral to the stud has good pigment. I think that's where I made my mistake.

By the way, I saw my foundation dog's sire (Roundabout bred) at age 11. He was a cream and still had good nose pigment.

The Rojean bitch's sire (Eddie) was a cream who I think had nice pigment.

All of the above leads me to believe that where I lost pigment was in the 2nd generation, despite two generations of good pigment on the Thalia side and one generation back on the Rojean side.

Hmm...

Cynthia


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Cynthadia said:


> Third generation: Kept a black bitch out of above breeding and bred her to an Ascot dog. There were two creams out of that litter, both didn't hold their pigment.


Yep. Sabrina came from a line that was known to produce good pigment. In her first litter, black to blue I got good holding pigment on the white puppies. In her second litter, Black to Black, I got two creams: one with holding pigment and one with an eventual snow nose. (Note... stud dog from the second litter came down out of Ascot dogs..... not to point fingers).

My point is this. I don't think you can simply fix poor pigment by breeding to Black. The snow nose is obviously caused by some gene that can be passed along generation after generation. That is why I think it is so important to pay attention to pigment. If we were only to breed Creams and White with good pigment, we would get good pigment. Yikes! Look at Goldens. They have been painting noses so long it is hard to find a show Golden anymore without a snow nose. I'd hate to see Poodles go down that same road.


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

cbrand said:


> In my limited experience with two litters that had Cream/White puppies, I noticed that the puppies BORN with black pigment kept their black pigment. The one puppy who was born with a pink nose that eventually blackened up, lost her pigment starting at around a year.
> 
> I think the very best way to get great pigment on Whites/Creams/Apricots/Reds is to only breed with and to Poodles with very dark pigment. If you breed a snow nose Poodle, you are going to have that issue in your line plain and simple and it sure seems like a bear to get rid of.


If I remember right, you bred Sabrina twice - once to a Vetset dog and I don't remember the kennel name of the other dog). Wasn't there Ascot behind the Vetset dog?

Sabrina was out of a black sire (Cash), who in turn was out of Rollie (cream) and Libby (black bitch who carried a brown gene). I could sort of see why you might get bad nose pigment with brown so close up in the pedigree. But then again, you also report that you had two creams with very nice nose pigment.

I distinctly remember that the Ascot dog I bred to had a dog back in his pedigree that had produced brown. And if memory serves me, your Vetset dog shared the same close breeding behind as the Ascot dog i bred to.

So now I'm wondering if there's more to this equation. Does brown in the pedigree affect nose pigment? Anyone know?


Cynthia


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Cynthadia said:


> If I remember right, you bred Sabrina twice - once to a Vetset dog and I don't remember the kennel name of the other dog). Wasn't there Ascot behind the Vetset dog?


Yes, there is Ascot behind the Vetset dogs, though that is not to say that all Ascot dogs have poor pigment.



> Sabrina was out of a black sire (Cash), who in turn was out of Rollie (cream) and Libby (black bitch who carried a brown gene). I could sort of see why you might get bad nose pigment with brown so close up in the pedigree. But then again, you also report that you had two creams with very nice nose pigment.


Sabrina's line reportedly carries good holding pigment. You know that there is a ton of Mary's stuff in this area. Even though there is lurking Brown gene in the line, most of the dogs coming down out of Cash and Tiara have great pigment right down to the black toenails (God I love this!). Note....Cash did not carry a Brown gene, but Tiara did. 

I do not know if the Brown gene somehow causes fading pigment. I would guess not because we are not talking about liver pigment, we are talking about fading black pigment. I think it is a separate gene. That is why it is useful to breed to a Cream/White dog that you know has good holding pigment rather than a Black dog. With a Black dog, the naturally black pigment can mask the snow nose gene.


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Yep. Sabrina came from a line that was known to produce good pigment. In her first litter, black to blue I got good holding pigment on the white puppies. In her second litter, Black to Black, I got two creams: one with holding pigment and one with an eventual snow nose. (Note... stud dog from the second litter came down out of Ascot dogs..... not to point fingers).
> 
> My point is this. I don't think you can simply fix poor pigment by breeding to Black. The snow nose is obviously caused by some gene that can be passed along generation after generation. That is why I think it is so important to pay attention to pigment. If we were only to breed Creams and White with good pigment, we would get good pigment. Yikes! Look at Goldens. They have been painting noses so long it is hard to find a show Golden anymore without a snow nose. I'd hate to see Poodles go down that same road.


My point is this. I don't think you can simply fix poor pigment by breeding to Black. The snow nose is obviously caused by some gene that can be passed along generation after generation. That is why I think it is so important to pay attention to pigment. If we were only to breed Creams and White with good pigment, we would get good pigment. Yikes! Look at Goldens. They have been painting noses so long it is hard to find a show Golden anymore without a snow nose. I'd hate to see Poodles go down that same road.[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't have bred to the Ascot dog had I not loved the family as well as the dog, so as far as I'm concerned, this isn't about assessing blame in hindsight. For me, it's only about trying to figure out where the bad nose pigment came from and trying to sidestep that issue should I ever breed another litter.

When you say that "Sabrina was from a line known to have produced good pigment," can you tell me how you came to that conclusion? 

I'm feeling old as dirt today because I was around to see I think 5 generations back on the Cash side of the pedigree (as a matter fact, I remember falling in love with Margaret's black bitch who was Taylor's dam). Of course, Rosemary was specialing Rollie at the same time Pazio was in the ring. For a short time, I was showing at the same time that Margaret was showing Libby. I can even go further back on this side of the pedigree insofar as dogs I've observed in the show ring. 

I only saw one puppy (a Knolland dog) out of Skyhawk and he did have excellent pigment.

Just so you know, I'm not disputing your statement about line that produced good pigment. I just don't remember, so I'm hoping you can help me fill in the blanks.

I just remembered. I think it was Graphic Good Fortune in the Ascot pedigree who produced brown.

Cynthia


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Cynthadia said:


> When you say that "Sabrina was from a line known to have produced good pigment," can you tell me how you came to that conclusion?


I'm basing this on the large number of dogs in this area that are descended from either Cash (Sabrina's sire) or Tiara (Cash's sister). They consistently seem to have good holding pigment.


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

Feralpudel said:


> One of the Frostfire puppies had very nice pigment (at least as a puppy), and black nails:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/8524-introducing-jorden-i-did-again.html#post107278
> 
> Good pigment on whites is one of my hobby horses. I'll take a bad black over a liver-nosed white any day...


Here she is: Jordan 6 months


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> Here she is: Jordan 6 months


Me, too. I don't like a liver nose on a cream or white. 

Those black toenails are dazzling. 

Cynthia


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Oodlejpoodle's mom said:


> Here she is: Jordan 6 months


DANG! Look at those toe nails!


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

Here is a picture of Jordan's skin color that is a little easier to see (tail):


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## PoodlesdeGrenier (Oct 4, 2010)

Hi there, 

I have some ideas on the dark pigment. First, I think that while the overall package the dog comes with is clearly polygenic, the dark pigment separate and my sense is that its a simple recessive. There's an old theory that it's a "chinchilla" gene, which works like a palomino/buckskin horse, but research shows it's not the same. Could be a gene at a different locus. It sure looks similar.

Research is here:

Dilution of Dog Coat Colors

The black skinned dogs in my lines have pigment that is a bit independent of the color of the coat. If you look at Jordan (what's her pedigree by the way?) who is just gorgeous, I would call that an "ice white." Most of the ice whites, which seem to have been German in origin, as opposed to French, are gone now, since there were once extensive lines of them, but when they were bred to the Wycliffe based blacks, that ice white disappeared and we got varying degrees of creams. There are still some of those ice white lines left in (ironically) France and one in Belgium, which is related, but they are practically gone. If you look at the wet puppy, who I bred, you can see that there is plenty of yellow in his coat still. That will fade, and he was the lightest in his litter, which included two dark cream/light apricots and the rest were blues of varying lightness, but his nose and points were black at birth. The darkest cream had a pink nose, the medium cream's nose turned black shortly thereafter, and skin and nails are also black, but his coat did not fade to white. The wet puppy's coat passes for white when dry and will probably fade to a solid white as an adult, but he is NOT an ice white. Now I know of a lot of mostly white bred dogs who get snow nose, and like anything else, it can happen at 6 mos or 2 yrs or 5. I don't know that it is connected to the depth of pigment but it might be. It might also be a separate gene altogether. It acts like a dominant with incomplete penetrance, because it's so common which is to say a dog only needs one copy of it, and each dog who gets it can get it in varying degrees. I think this chinchilla effect, however, is rare, and I think both parents have to carry it. Old white lines and old silver lines have it, from what I have seen. I don't think the Wycliffe dogs had it, but they don't go back to the same dogs as the German white dogs did.

There are general holding genes that the Wycliffe dogs have that the ice whites seem to have none of. The Germans are till required to breed color to color, and probably for this reason. Fading and holding genes have now gotten all mixed up, which is better for diversity, but there used to be a lot more options for diversity out there in every color until inbreeding became all the rage, and before everyone was breeding only to produce a particular show type. Now, if you want to produce a holding color, black, brown, red, apricot, or a fading color, blue, silver-beige, cream, white, you have to select carefully for pigment. If it's an autosomal recessive, breeding a homozygous dog to a carrier will give each puppy a 50/50 shot of having the great pigment. If both parents carry, it's a 1 in 4 chance. In the case of the wet puppy, though he's not tightly inbred, both parents are blues, and have similar but quite diverse pedigrees. 

I don't think brown figures in much, though there is a range of brown that seems distinct, but I don't know that you see it if the dog is not brown. On the other hand, it could be that the difference you see in a yellow cream dog as opposed to a white dog as opposed to a pinky cream dog would show in different shades of browns, or blues, but not in blacks. I do think that whatever gene creates the black holding pigment also fades the coat, but conversely I don't think the coat color genes change the pigment. Based on nothing but instinct...could be all wrong.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

...ammm... will write again when I have more time ... sorry for interrupting lol


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

PoodlesdeGrenier said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have some ideas on the dark pigment. First, I think that while the overall package the dog comes with is clearly polygenic, the dark pigment separate and my sense is that its a simple recessive. There's an old theory that it's a "chinchilla" gene, which works like a palomino/buckskin horse, but research shows it's not the same. Could be a gene at a different locus. It sure looks similar.
> 
> ...


If (and that's an hypothesis right now), a cream with holding pigment & black skin is a double (complete?) recessive, that would be way cool. It's weird, but when I think black, I have a hard time wrapping my mind around calling the trait recessive - mostly because it works opposite to poodle hair where black is dominant. Sorry for restating what you just said above.

A double recessive is an easy trait to acquire. 

I think I'm comfortable (for now) with a working theory that only cream/white puppies who are born with black skin and black points are identified as HP/DS. And when I say "born with black skin and black points," I mean that absolutely all pigment is in from the moment the puppy emerges from the sac. Other than developing a genetic test, I guess the only way to test this out is to breed several generations of HP/DS dogs to HP/DS bitches and see what happens.

The downside is that it's not as though there are tons of HP/DS dogs and bitches out there from which to test this theory. And what with nose dying (I've done it) and powdering (I've done that, too) going on, I don't even know if anyone is interested in purusing this theory. 

I can tell you from my own experience of having dogs with fading noses and lighter skin pigment, I'd be interested in seeing where this goes. 

Cynthia

p.s. And can you even breed for this trait while concurrently keeping genetic diversity in the mix?


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

Cynthadia said:


> This has been bugging me for days now. Some 20+ years ago, there was a women in Golden, Colorado who bred under the name Frostfire. I can't remember her name, but I do remember the name of the last dog she showed: Frosfire's Anteros (cream standard dog). I think I might even have a video of the dog.
> 
> Any connection between the two Frosfires?
> 
> Cynthia


I doubt there is a connection. the person in Golden,CO was Doris Fellows. She had a serious stroke in late 80's.early 90's.
Anteros was her service dog after that. Nice lady


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

tintlet said:


> I doubt there is a connection. the person in Golden,CO was Doris Fellows. She had a serious stroke in late 80's.early 90's.
> Anteros was her service dog after that. Nice lady


Thanks for filling that in, Gloria. I remembered the name of the dog and that he was a cream. I think she had someone else (a woman) show the dog, and I can almost picture the dog at the Adams County Fairgrounds at one of the Columbine Poodle Club's specialties. I have a VCR tape from around that time. I'll dig it out, now that I have a name to attach to the dog. And yes, she was a nice lady.

Cynthia


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