# Deciding about 8mo SPoo.. the latest update



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

She seems like a girl who could be a great fit for you. That does seem a highish price, but accounting for boarding and training maybe it isn't so bad and maybe you can negotiate to knock a bit off the ask. Young dogs are pretty adaptable. I think while you may have a bumpy start she should settle in well with your family and I wouldn't worry about separation issues. I think many people overestimate dogs' needs for companions for most of the day. Although I don't have a webcam in my house to watch I am pretty sure most of the time my three would be as they are now, Peeves on his bed in our bedroom, Lily on the sofa (or maybe in the tent crate in the LR) and Javelin sacked out somewhere on the floor in the LR (if not out with me). Since you've met her and like her I don't think concern #3 is an issue.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

My concern would be about potential health issues, since her background is unknown. It could be heart breaking if she does have a Testable medical condition. It could also be expensive to treat, far outweighing initial cost.


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## Justlooking (Jun 17, 2017)

I have an AKC number for both parents (begins with PR, then 8 numbers), plus an AKC DNA number for the sire, plus the names for both dogs. What can I do with this info? I’ve tried googling, but am not coming up with anything.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'd go elsewhere and get a puppy from a reputable breeder that you can train and raise yourself, the way you'd like to. And honestly training and selling purebred dogs seems like a little bit of an odd business, but maybe it's just me...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Justlooking said:


> I have an AKC number for both parents (begins with PR, then 8 numbers), plus an AKC DNA number for the sire, plus the names for both dogs. What can I do with this info? I’ve tried googling, but am not coming up with anything.


You can search the pedigree in Poodlehealthregistry and get an idea of health testing done in previous generations.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Justlooking said:


> The pup was advertised as ”Registered/registerable... She’s got the paperwork to mail away for AKC registration but is not registered.


This sounds like she still has the papers from the original owner. You want to clarify if the papers were made out in her name as the new owner, or left blank. 

If left blank, she can turn it over to you and you can register online. 

If the owner filled in the trainer's name, then I think she'll have to submit it first as herself as the owner, and she can do this online too. AKC will email her the registration and the poodle will have a unique ID number. 

They will also mail her the paper registration; on the back of this she'll have to fill out a transfer to you. 

Since she's had the dog for over 2 months and says she has not registered it, she may have hoped to train then sell it at some point.

Since you don't plan to breed or show her, papers may not matter to you. Proof of ownership comes from a receipt, and you'll want to get it microchipped. If it already been microchipped, it's important that you get that information since it would show another owner, either the trainer or original breeder, and that could be a problem if your dog gets lost and found.



Justlooking said:


> She’s basically a backyard breeder dog with no testing and no CH pedigree. She’s 8mo and a dog like this would sell in my state for about $500. Her price is $1800.


As the old timers used to say, sounds like someone is past due on their mortgage or other bills. I'm not saying don't try to negotiate or pay that price; if it's not going to hurt your budget and you really like this poodle, go for it. 



Justlooking said:


> She’s been to the vet and seems healthy, but ‘health certificate’ basically means whatever papers came in her file from the vet, no hips, eyes, genetic, etc. and vet exam means they take her and I get the paperwork, not a trip I get to go on/ask questions.


Oy vey! 



Justlooking said:


> They don’t offer refunds except in case of “life threatening/altering” medical issues that are missed by their vet, or a bite/aggression incident, certified by a behaviorist. They will always take the dog back, and will offer another dog if the temperament does not work out.


Get it in writing. What's the deadline on the temperament or health issues? And have her clarify how much _more_ they would charge you for a replacement. Maybe the next one would cost $2500, so you'd end up paying an additional $700.

I like this dog and I think her temperament is great for us. The more I think about it, the less I want to do the puppy mom routine again, so an 8mo is pretty appealing. And I like her, I like this specific pup. Just given the background of this dog (unknown) and the trainer’s policies (no refunds), it seems like a pretty big risk.



Justlooking said:


> What would you do?


Everyone has a deal breaker. For some it's the cost if they feel it's unreasonable, others it's the lack of genetic testing, for others it's worry about what other problems could spring from this?

I don't know if backyard spoos really cost $500 in your area, but if they do in general, I'd be tempted to run a simple check of court records by county in your state with the trainer's name and see what pops up. This isn't available in all states. The reason is you've shared so many misgivings that I have misgivings. 

But mainly, I'd contact this breeder and see if that pretty female spoo is still available, or this well-known breeder and PF member who posted pics on her FB of new puppies, or this one, this one, or this one. Or if you see great Spoos by PF members here, just message them asking where did they get it?

That's what I would do, but I'm not you and haven't seen this great little Spoo like you have. She might be your soulmate with a few extra obstacles for the two of you to link up. Go with your gut, and good luck.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Justlooking said:


> I have an AKC number for both parents (begins with PR, then 8 numbers), plus an AKC DNA number for the sire, plus the names for both dogs. What can I do with this info? I’ve tried googling, but am not coming up with anything.


Go to this AKC link and click Free Dog Lookup and guest. 
https://www.apps.akc.org/apps/store/?view=category&cde_category=COMP&isloggedin=yes&odt=1

Go to poodledata.org at this link.
Poodle Pedigree Database
You'll need to register for a new account. Then go back, log in, and scroll down below and click on "Search for dogs based on part of the registered name..."
Then type in the registered name. You won't be able type in the entire name unless it's very short.
Not all AKC registered poodles are in this data base, so don't be dismayed if the sire and dam are not. If either are in it, it will trace back their family tree.

You should also go to ofa.org and do a search. If the parents are listed (or grandparents if you could get their names from poodledata.org), you'll see results of various testing they've had. I have found that a surprising number of well known breeders do not go through this, possibly b/c genetic testing is expensive using their labs when other labs are cheaper.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

You can look up the AKC numbers and/or the registered names on these 3 sites:

poodledata.org great way to look at pedigrees

offa.org The health tests that have been done on breeding dogs are on this site. A CHIC number indicates that the testing recommended for the breed has been done.

phrdatabase.com Health issues that have been reported (for any dogs, not just breeding dogs) will be here. Problem is that a lot is unreported. So if you see no reports of SA, Addison's, bloat etc, that does not necessarily mean that there have been no problems.

Interesting resources, but I doubt that you will learn a lot from further research.

But the bottom line (IMO) is this: If you like the dog, and if you'd like to avoid the puppy stuff, then this is the girl for you. I'd be very surprised if you were disappointed with her once she adjusts.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I am sorry but reading what you said, I don’t think I would go for this dog.

Too many red flags, way overpriced, and most of all no testing at all. If this dog ends up having to have her hips repaired, you’re talking thousands and thousands of dollars.

Unless they let you take her to a really good vet of your choice prior to adopting her, and have her hips checked, along with a really thorough examination, I would not go ahead. They need to let YOU have her checked, and give you the right to decide freely if you want her or not after that, with no conditions whatsoever.

Also the price is very high and needs to be brought down in my opinion. Unless you think teaching a puppy basic manners and housebreaking is worth 1000$. Also, boarding and training is never as solid as having trained the dog yourself.

No matter what your choicie is, it’s your decision and we will stand by you.


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## Justlooking (Jun 17, 2017)

Thank you, all. I think the price is too high and there are too many questions for us. I like her a lot, but I’m not sure she is our dog. 

I checked out the links Vita posted and I’ve been looking online at puppyfind.com - there are some beautiful dogs out there, at a much more reasonable price. I think we’ll keep looking. The right pup will find us at the right time.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

The level of training you mentioned is about what you'd get from a rescue that does in-home fostering (as opposed to shelters or kennels). Foster homes routinely teach housebreaking, crate training, and manners, and they don't charge that much of a premium for it. Frankly, I'd only consider training to be worth an extra $1000+ if it included specialized skills for something like competitive obedience or service work. Especially considering that you'll have to train housetraining again in a new home, anyway, and continue reinforcing from there. Dog training is unfortunately not a one-and-done affair.

Personally I consider the higher price tag of purebred puppies to be worth it for the genetic health testing and careful breeding practices involved, and if that's not there then I'd rather look elsewhere. If there are other things that are worth the price for you, though (such as not having to wait for an equivalent dog to show up), then that's completely fine. The good start on socialization is a huge thing.


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## Justlooking (Jun 17, 2017)

lisasgirl said:


> The level of training you mentioned is about what you'd get from a rescue that does in-home fostering (as opposed to shelters or kennels). Foster homes routinely teach housebreaking, crate training, and manners, and they don't charge that much of a premium for it. Frankly, I'd only consider training to be worth an extra $1000+ if it included specialized skills for something like competitive obedience or service work. Especially considering that you'll have to train housetraining again in a new home, anyway, and continue reinforcing from there. Dog training is unfortunately not a one-and-done affair.
> 
> Personally I consider the higher price tag of purebred puppies to be worth it for the genetic health testing and careful breeding practices involved, and if that's not there then I'd rather look elsewhere. If there are other things that are worth the price for you, though (such as not having to wait for an equivalent dog to show up), then that's completely fine. The good start on socialization is a huge thing.


Thank you. We were expecting to pay around that price point, but for a properly bred puppy. This dog has some real pluses (and is very sweet), but a lot of minuses too. I don’t think I can do it.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Dechi said:


> ...No matter what your choice is, it’s your decision and we will stand by you.


Dechi, I love that. This is the best of PF.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I’m relieved. It didn’t feel right to me. Btw, I would never insult a reputable breeder by bargaining. This situation seemed sketchy enough that I thought it would work if you really wanted the dog.


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## Justlooking (Jun 17, 2017)

Mfmst said:


> I’m relieved. It didn’t feel right to me. Btw, I would never insult a reputable breeder by bargaining. This situation seemed sketchy enough that I thought it would work if you really wanted the dog.


Thanks. And me too, both to the relief and the not bargaining.

With a real breeder, I can absolutely see the value and the work and I really believe it’s worth paying for quality, both to encourage the breed and because careful breeding is an expensive proposition. We’d been expecting to pay for it. But with a questionable arrangement like the one we were considering, we’ll it didn’t seem the same. Mostly it just didn’t seem right. 

But you know what? I’ve been looking at breeder listings off and on all afternoon, and I found a listing for a 16mo girl, AKC CH lines, full testing, with a breeder who I feel really good about. She was held back for breeding but isn’t a good candidate so they’re looking for a pet home. She’s even the exact temperament, size, and color I was hoping for. Fingers crossed that this works out, she would truly be perfect for us and I think we’d be a great home for her! :act-up::act-up::act-up:

This is all going to sound really weird, and I’m sure it’s just my subconscious trying to tell me something strange, but I’ve had several dreams where I’m jogging (for fun), with a SPoo running beside me. The dog I just found is this exact same dog. Maybe this one is meant to be?!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh now I really do hope this one works out. The other one probably would have be a lovely dog too, but not at that price.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

OHHH Well! But the new 'find' sounds good too, so GOOD LUCK and hope she's 'the one'!!!!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

As we say in french “ jamais deux sans trois “... So this one will be the one !


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

I hope the new one is the one for you as well! Just so many red flags with the other situation. Keep us posted, I can't wait to see your new pup. It will be well worth the wait!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I've been following your posts. I have found in my years is to go with your gut feeling, when in doubt listen...there is no shortage of dogs out there. Hopefully this new one will work o ut and many breeders do hold back dogs for show & breeding then find a minor fault and do not use them and place them in pet homes. All these dogs though trained will need a bit of re training in their new homes.


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## Justlooking (Jun 17, 2017)

Well. That’s that. First dog was a bad experience with a breeder who wasn’t ethical. Second breeder never responded to emails. Third possibility was questionable trainer/overpriced dog, and 4th attempt has already been placed.

I’m not having much luck here. And I’m finding that, apart from this place, 3 out of 4 of my experiences with poodle people have been not great (the breeder of the 4th pup was fine, just an old listing they should have taken down). 

I think I’ll retreat for a while and rethink this. We’re a great home for a pup, responsible and experienced. It’s just not working out for us right now.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Don't give up after a few false starts I found my pup, thanks to a recommendation from someone here on the forum, from a reputable breeder only 65 miles from my house.

I was looking for an older pup/adult with a laid back middle of the road temperament whose parents were health tested. I had wanted a female, but ended up with a very sweet white male.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Justlooking said:


> I think I’ll retreat for a while and rethink this. We’re a great home for a pup, responsible and experienced. It’s just not working out for us right now.


I’m sorry the puppy search has not been enjoyable for you. It’s usually an exciting part of finding a new companion, but you’ve had so many barriers placed in your way that I can totally understand your decision to take a step back. 

Finding a dog isn’t nearly as easy as finding a puppy. Puppies are everywhere, but good puppies go to homes that often are on long waiting lists, are fully prepared for many situations with substantial resources, and so the odds of them being surrendered are lower. If they’re given up, they go back to their breeder.

I think your best bet when you’re ready to start looking again is to start contacting breeders that produce dogs you like - wether or not they have puppies ready. let them know that you’re looking for an older dog, and that you’d be interested in any that were returned. 

Good luck when you start to look again; i’m sorry this particular dog adventure hasn’t been what you wanted!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

There is also a facebook group called "Litters From Health Tested Poodles"


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Justlooking said:


> Well. That’s that. First dog was a bad experience with a breeder who wasn’t ethical. Second breeder never responded to emails. Third possibility was questionable trainer/overpriced dog, and 4th attempt has already been placed.
> 
> I’m not having much luck here. And I’m finding that, apart from this place, 3 out of 4 of my experiences with poodle people have been not great (the breeder of the 4th pup was fine, just an old listing they should have taken down).
> 
> I think I’ll retreat for a while and rethink this. We’re a great home for a pup, responsible and experienced. It’s just not working out for us right now.


I’m so sorry about that. 

Take a break for a week, get your energy back and try again. You haven’t been lucky but don’t get discouraged. That’s just how life is, sometimes it takes longer but it always works out in one way or another.

Dogs are such a great joy, it would be a shame if your family didn’t get the chance to enjoy having one to love.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

JustLooking, I truly feel your frustration. I had been looking from early June to early October last year, and just when it looked like I'd never get a poodle, Bella dropped into my lap. Seriously, it was one of those _darkest before the dawn_ situations. 

Why don't you list on this and a separate thread what state you live in and how far you'd be willing to travel to get Spoo, color, gender preference and price range?

People on PF know you and you know us, and we know you want one, so if any of us sees one available in your area, we can message you? And there are some fine breeders and groomers on PF who may remember this and contact you if one suddenly becomes available. You can always click on anyone's avatar and click find past posts and see if they've been around PF for awhile, which should also put your mind at rest. 

Also since we're in a interconnected world these days, *I just googled "facebook standard poodles"* and you'll see _a lot_ of interesting pages and photos, some breeders others just showing great photos and sharing ideas. Plenty of Spoos out there! Some have or know of a litter, just ask!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Find your dream breeder first, get the pick of the next litter, and by all means tell them you are also interested in an older puppy too. They have connections, even co-breeding arrangements. I wanted a puppy and was all about a puppy. I recommended my breeder to a PF member from Texas, who walked away with a 6 month show fail, housebroken, happily ever after. I didn’t know to ask! 

Take a breath, your experience has been disappointing and unusual. It’s laudable that you are taking the time to do the due diligence and research on a long term member of your household.


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## DCspoo (Apr 19, 2015)

It may be helpful to take a step back. Tell yourself that if you are going to search for your dog, then you have to do exactly that, search. I know it can be a highly frustrating process though. 

I agree with what was previously said that finding puppies is much, much easier than finding a dog. We went through two trials with adult spoos who didn't work out, and I took a step back after telling myself "fine! This is just not meant to be!" 

While stepping back, the right dog found us. Not perfect, but quirky and everything that we needed to have in a dog (great with our toddler, an adult, good with other dogs, health tested, and a retired champion -- we did the housetraining and obedience training). It took us a good 6 months to find him. 

I think facebook groups are a great resource. Also finding small breeders and emailing them and asking if they know of anyone around the east coast who has an older puppy/adult is worth doing. We found making connections and chatting with breeders to be vital to the process. 

You are doing great though! The right one is out there, you just have to find each other!


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## Jewelmick (Oct 3, 2017)

We were so lucky with our puppy Dante. I'm not sure where you are located, but if you want a recommendation you can pm me. 
Funny story how things sometimes work out...last week we met with an insurance broker, almost canceled the appt when I found out he name of the office was Reagan insurance...not a fan...but, when we got there found out it's named after their Spoo. She hangs out in the office with them all day and is adorable. They got her from a local poodle rescue group that is run by a good friend of theirs.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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