# What would the official colors be for my pups?



## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

I thought, 
one white with apricot/ red parti spots on her head 
Two creams
Two solid red/ apricots
And one red/ apricot with a white blaze up her forehead


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

Heat lamp was turned off to get an accurate color pic, and Momma just stepped out for breakfast.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Until someone with more knowledge than me drops in, these are my layman go-to sites,

COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES (tripod.com)
POODLE COAT COLORS: OVERVIEW OF ALL COLORS (tripod.com)

Poodle Colors: 35 Poodle Coat Colors And Genetics Explained (pupvine.com)

If you're asking for purposes of AKC documentation (not necessarily registration), I hope someone else will be able to help. If color is asked for my best guess is to go by the predominant solid color. Slight patterning such as you describe may not be relevant.

I think that color descriptions can be changed down the road, if needed.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Where/how is this litter being raised? No whelping box? Carpet remnant for bedding? Is this in a barn or garage?


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I think you'll need to photograph each individual to get a reasonable color judgment. That said, I don't think I can help. No experience in this area.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Eclipse said:


> Where/how is this litter being raised? No whelping box? Carpet remnant for bedding? Is this in a barn or garage?


 I had a similar response as you did. This is a rescue poodle who I believe came pregnant and was not raised inside a house. The new owner has her in the house but she she was close to deliver and wouldn’t settle inside. So they built a small area outside with a heat lamp and they are trying to do the best they can. Originally the swimming pool was bare because the mother pushed the soft items out. Looks like they added carpet to give the puppies a soft surface.

If any of my information is incorrect, I hope others wil post corrections.

Sorry I can’t help with colors.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Eclipse said:


> Where/how is this litter being raised? No whelping box? Carpet remnant for bedding? Is this in a barn or garage?





Skylar said:


> I had a similar response as you did. This is a rescue poodle who I believe came pregnant and was not raised inside a house. The new owner has her in the house but she she was close to deliver and wouldn’t settle inside. So they built a small area outside with a heat lamp and they are trying to do the best they can. Originally the swimming pool was bare because the mother pushed the soft items out. Looks like they added carpet to give the puppies a soft surface.
> 
> If any of my information is incorrect, I hope others wil post corrections.
> 
> Sorry I can’t help with colors.


The whelping area is inside their garage, according to another thread. As Skylar said, they've had her a little over a week, and she simply wasn't comfortable inside the house. She had previously lived in a kennel inside a barn, and as soon as they made this set-up for her, she immediately settled down.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

She and the other bitch apparently arrived already in whelp. I am not certain that has ever been confirmed. This bitch at least was said to have been highly uncomfortable inside the home, so provisions were made for an in-between environment in the garage.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Yeah closer pics would help. It's also hard to compare the pups in shadow vs light, so what I initially see is 3 white (by your description one would be an apricot parti), one cream, two apricot. The middle one of the three on the left I would still consider cream, although you will want to compare and reassess in a few weeks for sure.
The one with the small amount of white is an abstract (aka mismark but that sounds more negative).
Out of curiosity, do you know what the father of these pups looked like? I remember seeing a pic of Cinna, she has some darker patches- are they from poor grooming before you got her or is she actually a red merle?


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> Yeah closer pics would help. It's also hard to compare the pups in shadow vs light, so what I initially see is 3 white (by your description one would be an apricot parti), one cream, two apricot. The middle one of the three on the left I would still consider cream, although you will want to compare and reassess in a few weeks for sure.
> The one with the small amount of white is an abstract (aka mismark but that sounds more negative).
> Out of curiosity, do you know what the father of these pups looked like? I remember seeing a pic of Cinna, she has some darker patches- are they from poor grooming before you got her or is she actually a red merle?


So even after I took this pic, their colors are changing! Their noses and paw pads are turning black, and the White parti has way more brown on her head. Cinna is a red with cream/white abstract. The colors on her back are from an injury. Her skin is healthy underneath, but all the hair that grows there is her red puppy hair. It still has that soft, somewhat wavy texture to it.


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

I do want to clear up the conversation around how Cinnamon and Laci Lou came to us. I’m all for the truth. I originally saw them advertised in a paper, and since I had been wanting to start my own breeding program to raise and train working dogs, I looked into it. I do not have the resources to buy $3000 puppies. So since I started with Dasher ( he’s the sire of my litter), I thought I’d build on him. Once I got to Cinna and Laci’s place, and I saw where they’d been living, and it tore at me. I did something highly controversial and bought them. Dasher’s previous owner had him health tested in many different ways, and I knew that if Cinna did have less than stellar hips/eyes what-have-you, Dasher could possibly even them out. He has strong, consistent genetics. I fully intend to do further health tests on Cinna with the money I get for these pups. She is a marvelous whelper and mother. That is something even awesome hips can’t give you.
While I know most of what I said is not the “accepted” way of doing things, even the best dogs had to start somewhere. I am starting this out right to the best of my ability, and Dasher and the girls have had good vet care, an excellent diet, plenty of love and care. Cinna gets vitamins and fresh food mixed with puppy chow at every meal. My dogs get coconut oil and diatomaceous earth. This may not be how you’d go about it, but my dogs are well-cared for and loved to pieces. They even went camping with us ( in our cabin). So please, don’t pick me to pieces. I’m here for the vast amount of knowledge and camaraderie that comes with poodle folk.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Please keep taking pictures of Cinna as she grows out the injured hair. There's another thread discussing mostly red based poodles and doodles getting unusual dark markings on their backs. Cinna's history would be so helpful for nervous owners.


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Please keep taking pictures of Cinna as she grows out the injured hair. There's another thread discussing mostly red based poodles and doodles getting unusual dark markings on their backs. Cinna's history would be so helpful for nervous owners.


Will do.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thank you for clearing up Cinna and Laci's history with you.
My boys came from a less than stellar background too so I understand the desire to give them a better life, tho I had no intention of starting a breeding program.
This won't endear me to you but once someone identifies themself as an intentional breeder, they are held to a higher standard and that may involve critique.
You are correct to point out that one must start somewhere and that your intent is to leverage these puppies into better, properly health tested and structurally sound dogs with good temperaments.

This thread is about the puppies and isn't the place to go into details but I hope you won't mind one question.
What type of working dog are you planning for your program?


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Thank you for clearing up Cinna and Laci's history with you.
> My boys came from a less than stellar background too so I understand the desire to give them a better life, tho I had no intention of starting a breeding program.
> This won't endear me to you but once someone identifies themself as an intentional breeder, they are held to a higher standard and that may involve critique.
> You are correct to point out that one must start somewhere and that your intent is to leverage these puppies into better, properly health tested and structurally sound dogs with good temperaments.
> ...


So I have several plans, depending on the pups’ temperaments:
Service dogs for autism, panic attacks, seizures and diabetes alert dogs. I have many people close to me who cannot afford service dogs, and at least one out of every litter will be trained specifically for them.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Admirable goals . We have several members who have trained their own SD's. One pup had a talent for diabetes alert, another decided that he would be a PSD for his human. There are others that I can think of currently active.

You might find some interest in the Poodle Service Dog forum. 








Poodle Service Dogs


The place to ask about and discuss service dog topics.




www.poodleforum.com


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

standardsofjustus said:


> I do want to clear up the conversation around how Cinnamon and Laci Lou came to us. I’m all for the truth. I originally saw them advertised in a paper, and since I had been wanting to start my own breeding program to raise and train working dogs, I looked into it. I do not have the resources to buy $3000 puppies. So since I started with Dasher ( he’s the sire of my litter), I thought I’d build on him. Once I got to Cinna and Laci’s place, and I saw where they’d been living, and it tore at me. I did something highly controversial and bought them. Dasher’s previous owner had him health tested in many different ways, and I knew that if Cinna did have less than stellar hips/eyes what-have-you, Dasher could possibly even them out. He has strong, consistent genetics. I fully intend to do further health tests on Cinna with the money I get for these pups. She is a marvelous whelper and mother. That is something even awesome hips can’t give you.
> While I know most of what I said is not the “accepted” way of doing things, even the best dogs had to start somewhere. I am starting this out right to the best of my ability, and Dasher and the girls have had good vet care, an excellent diet, plenty of love and care. Cinna gets vitamins and fresh food mixed with puppy chow at every meal. My dogs get coconut oil and diatomaceous earth. This may not be how you’d go about it, but my dogs are well-cared for and loved to pieces. They even went camping with us ( in our cabin). So please, don’t pick me to pieces. I’m here for the vast amount of knowledge and camaraderie that comes with poodle folk.


No matter how you try to spin it/defend yourself, the truth is you are* NOT* starting out right and you *ARE* breeding irresponsibly. Though you are not the original owner of your stud you state the former owner had him health tested in many different ways. What ways? Does he have a CHIC# which means he has had and passed at least the very minimum number of health tests prescribed for Standards by the Poodle Club of America (initial tests as well as yearly updates when appropriate). Most serious and conscientious breeders do ALL the testing recommended by PCA, not just the minimum required for a CHIC certification. Other than health testing, what makes your stud worth breeding? Is he a finished breed champion so his structure has been evaluated as correct per the breed standard by at least several impartial judges? Structure is very important for working dogs. Does he have mid to upper level performance titles which show his temperament/trainability/biddability - especially important if you say you want to breed potential service dogs and are using him as a stud. If he is fully tested and titled, I would be happy to hear it and be corrected in my comments.....Also keep in mind, even responsible/reputable breeders with their own finished champion studs go outside and use other breeder's studs because their stud is not a fit with every one of their breeding bitches. 

I would be willing to bet from your description of both bitches you bought that they are also inferior quality back yard bred dogs with poor pedigrees that have also not been proven by being shown in breed and/or performance and should not be bred, especially since full health testing was not done on them from what I can see from your posts. It's wonderful that you "saved" them, but if you want to breed responsibly, it is* imperative* you start with great foundation bitches. Spay these two and find them homes if you can't keep them with you as pets that are not a part of your breeding program.

Many dogs get good vet care, good food and supplements and plenty of love and attention. That does *NOT *make them worth breeding. I don't breed myself, I have spectacular breeders I work with to get my dogs from. But if I had wanted to breed any of my bitches, all of them would have been appropriate candidates. All of them passed all their required health testing. All of them come from generations of health tested dogs. All of them have 5 generation pedigrees with only 1 or 2 dogs in all those dogs not being breed champions with some of those champions having performance titles as well. I show them all in performance in multiple venues and all have many, many upper level titles. I currently have 3 girls with close to 150 performance titles between them.

If you are going to breed responsibly, you breed to better the breed. That means starting out with fully health tested dogs with good pedigrees and titles from fully health tested and titled lines. It's time consuming and *expensive* to do it right, but if you are not doing it right from the start, you are not doing the breed any favors and are nothing better than a back yard breeder yourself. People who want to become good breeders know it can take years to get their first litter on the ground. They work with a reputable breeder/mentor. They start with a puppy from good lines, they show to titles, they wait until after 2 to do all the proper health testing. Then they find the appropriate mate. It's an ongoing process. 

As to $$$, you mentioned you can't afford to spend $3,000 on purchasing a puppy? First of all, there are many pups out there, especially in Standards, from fully health tested lines with lovely pedigrees in the $2,000 - $2,500 range which is a bargain for all you are getting from those breeders. And if you say you can't even afford to spend the $$ to start with a good puppy, how are you going to afford the costs to show and title him/her before breeding (which will easily cost $$ thousands) as you should? How on earth are you going to deal with all the things that can happen with breeding? What are you going to do if a bitch requires an emergency C-section which can easily cost $2,000 - $4,000 or more? Even without that, it costs $$ thousands to raise litters right with extra food/supplements for the dam, sonograms for the dam prior to whelping to estimate/confirm number/position of pups, food/supplements for the pups, vet care for shots/worming, etc. Are you going to be doing ENS and bio sensor exercises with the pups? What kind of socialization/exposure to stimulus as they grow are you going to be doing? Are you doing appropriate temperament testing for placement (Volhard or AviDog) with the new owners? I could go on and on with questions for you but before I do, would be quite interested to see your responses to the ones I have asked here in this post...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Breeding service dogs is a special and heavy responsibility. There is the responsibility to both the dog, who deserves a home in which he will thrive, and the buyer, who needs an exceptional companion. It is concerning that your foundation bitch is skittish about being kept in normal whelping conditions. Whether she has genetically poor temperament or poor socialization, it sounds like you will be working uphill with this litter. Additionally, good breeders are choosy about who they work with. In order to gain access to good quality dogs, the ones who can improve your line, you need to have a good reputation yourself.

Here are some resources to help you with your current litter:





The First Eight Weeks: Socializing Puppy Litters in a Shelter or Foster Home – Center for Shelter Dogs







centerforshelterdogs.tufts.edu






https://avidog-courses-library.s3-us-east-2.amazonaws.com/avidogcourses/wp-content/courses/97-Ways-ebook.pdf



And here are some resources to help you get your breeding program back on track:





Breeder's Code of Ethics | United Kennel Club (UKC)







www.ukcdogs.com












Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


Code of Ethics written as Best Practices as requested by the American Kennel Club Download the Current Code Of Ethics As a member of the Poodle Club of America, I Acknowledge that I am a representative of PCA and my actions are a reflection of... Read more




poodleclubofamerica.org









AKC's Guide to Responsible Dog Breeding – American Kennel Club


Learn about the AKC's key points of responsible dog breeding, best dog breeding practices, tips for dog breeding and whelping, and more.




www.akc.org


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

Something doesn’t add up for me. You have had these dogs for months. At least 2 assuming that she got pregnant the first day you got her which is unlikely (since your original dog Dasher is the sire). You say she had been living inside for 1 week before her due date so basically they have been living outside since you got them. Why wouldn’t they be inside from the moment you got them, then surely they would be used to being inside by the time the pups arrived.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

standardsofjustus said:


> So even after I took this pic, their colors are changing! Their noses and paw pads are turning black, and the White parti has way more brown on her head. Cinna is a red with cream/white abstract. The colors on her back are from an injury. Her skin is healthy underneath, but all the hair that grows there is her red puppy hair. It still has that soft, somewhat wavy texture to it.


Ah, I thought it might have been from an injury or other skin issue that was healing. It will be interesting to see if it goes back to match the rest of her. I have one dog who grows white hairs in any places that she gets little nicks or scabs- a fairly frequent occurrence with the roughhousing between them all.
Dasher is white, correct? I'm assuming with black pigment of his points (ie nose and eye rims)?
It's pretty typical for points to darken over the first couple days- and they could lighten again as they get older too! And yes the spots grow or shrink- friends have what was an apricot abstract but her white spot has vanished!
I'm wondering if the parti is a brown parti (or brown variant). It's possible, because Cinna has liver (brown) points. That pup would have liver points if so, but they could still be quite dark.
I'm not going to get into the aspects of breeding right now, other than to say that one parent's good results often can't "even out" the other parents problems- many issues especially eyes, thyroid, adrenal are either you have it or you don't, anyone affected or carrier parent will pass that down to at least some 9f the offspring.

I do really want to recommend, especially since you are hoping for service prospects, that you use the Puppy Culture program. Yes it costs money, but it's a very small investment in the grand scheme of things and you only have to buy it once. The video is the main thing, but the workbook and fb group are extremely helpful especially for first time breeders and those who don't have a mentor.


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> Ah, I thought it might have been from an injury or other skin issue that was healing. It will be interesting to see if it goes back to match the rest of her. I have one dog who grows white hairs in any places that she gets little nicks or scabs- a fairly frequent occurrence with the roughhousing between them all.
> Dasher is white, correct? I'm assuming with black pigment of his points (ie nose and eye rims)?
> It's pretty typical for points to darken over the first couple days- and they could lighten again as they get older too! And yes the spots grow or shrink- friends have what was an apricot abstract but her white spot has vanished!
> I'm wondering if the parti is a brown parti (or brown variant). It's possible, because Cinna has liver (brown) points. That pup would have liver points if so, but they could still be quite dark.
> ...


Thank you for your suggestion! I have already been doin ENS and puppy culture. I have several mentors, one with dog breeding in general (she’s a highly reputable breeder of Bernese Mountain dogs for over 13 years), and a breeder of Standard Poodles, whom she used to show. Dasher was shown and has had several litters from before he came to me, and many of them are currently working as police dogs, service dogs and therapy dogs in hospitals, schools and even juvenile detention facilities.


Looniesense said:


> Something doesn’t add up for me. You have had these dogs for months. At least 2 assuming that she got pregnant the first day you got her which is unlikely (since your original dog Dasher is the sire). You say she had been living inside for 1 week before her due date so basically they have been living outside since you got them. Why wouldn’t they be inside from the moment you got them, then surely they would be used to being inside by the time the pups arrived.


I had them inside from day one. I had them under direct supervision, out only to pee or be tethered to me, just like a puppy who is potty training. They did okay, slowly getting used to me and my family. I was slowly introducing them to the rest of the house, when we had a hiccup, and they peed, pooped and threw up all over my living room. I cleaned up, and they proceeded to eliminate in my house constantly ( mind you, I had been taking them out on a schedule, just like a potty-training puppy). Since they grew up in a kennel, they have no innate sense not to step in their excrement and trot it everywhere. I did a great deal of study on how to care for rescued dogs who come from a rough background. The fact of the matter is that they love being outside, and cannot get calm and easy in my house. I have retried several times. I will not stop trying, but first I must find a different way, since the ones I’ve used aren’t connecting for them. I am with my dogs a great deal of the day. If you have any suggestions as to ways to adapt them to the house without making it unsanitary for my baby, I would welcome your insight.


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Breeding service dogs is a special and heavy responsibility. There is the responsibility to both the dog, who deserves a home in which he will thrive, and the buyer, who needs an exceptional companion. It is concerning that your foundation bitch is skittish about being kept in normal whelping conditions. Whether she has genetically poor temperament or poor socialization, it sounds like you will be working uphill with this litter. Additionally, good breeders are choosy about who they work with. In order to gain access to good quality dogs, the ones who can improve your line, you need to have a good reputation yourself.
> 
> Here are some resources to help you with your current litter:
> 
> ...


Thank you! I would gladly accept any and all advice.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

standardsofjustus said:


> I had them inside from day one.


I believe the confusion is coming from this comment here, from your other thread:



standardsofjustus said:


> I had her in the house for almost a week before pups were due.


Since you are working with mentors and have expressed genuine love for the poodle breed and your new additions, I’m also a little confused as to why you bred a dog who was still so stressed in her new environment. How long was Cinna with you before you made this decision?

Going by the 3-3-3 rule of rescue, I would expect you’d have needed at least three months to even begin to assess her temperament.

Are you planning to breed her mother, too?


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

Eclipse said:


> No matter how you try to spin it/defend yourself, the truth is you are* NOT* starting out right and you *ARE* breeding irresponsibly. Though you are not the original owner of your stud you state the former owner had him health tested in many different ways. What ways? Does he have a CHIC# which means he has had and passed at least the very minimum number of health tests prescribed for Standards by the Poodle Club of America (initial tests as well as yearly updates when appropriate). Most serious and conscientious breeders do ALL the testing recommended by PCA, not just the minimum required for a CHIC certification. Other than health testing, what makes your stud worth breeding? Is he a finished breed champion so his structure has been evaluated as correct per the breed standard by at least several impartial judges? Structure is very important for working dogs. Does he have mid to upper level performance titles which show his temperament/trainability/biddability - especially important if you say you want to breed potential service dogs and are using him as a stud. If he is fully tested and titled, I would be happy to hear it and be corrected in my comments.....Also keep in mind, even responsible/reputable breeders with their own finished champion studs go outside and use other breeder's studs because their stud is not a fit with every one of their breeding bitches.
> 
> I would be willing to bet from your description of both bitches you bought that they are also inferior quality back yard bred dogs with poor pedigrees that have also not been proven by being shown in breed and/or performance and should not be bred, especially since full health testing was not done on them from what I can see from your posts. It's wonderful that you "saved" them, but if you want to breed responsibly, it is* imperative* you start with great foundation bitches. Spay these two and find them homes if you can't keep them with you as pets that are not a part of your breeding program.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your concerns, and the heart in which you voiced them. Although much time and much money, as you have clearly stated, goes into showing dogs and gaining the dog and their owner well-deserved recognition, I do not believe that is the only measure of a dog. There are far and wide dogs the world over who are excellent at their work without having stepped paw in the show ring. Do I value the opinion of experts in their field? Of course! And I shall be getting their evaluations. I will hold myself and my dogs to a very high standard, though not by the same route you would take. I welcome constructive criticism, and am glad to learn from those who have much experience. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.


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## standardsofjustus (4 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I believe the confusion is coming from this comment here, from your other thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My reasoning was that she had been taken to breed at other studs homes, and that this time she would just stay. I am getting Laci spayed as soon as possible. She is an excellent, smart dog, as is Cinna.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think this forum has shown absolutely amazing restraint and kindness as the details of this breeding unfold. (Thank you so much guys; this makes the job of the moderators much easier!) A couple years back this thread would have gotten VERY heated.

A reason many people on this board take great issue with backyard and puppy mill breeders is because of the suffering they cause. In my time as moderator I've become aware of at least 4 members who had dogs die young due to health and temperament issues stemming from poor breeding practices. Some of those dogs were purchased as service dog prospects. Some of those dogs lived in homes with young children. In some cases families which didn't have a lot of extra free cash spent extraordinary amounts trying to save their dog. Our forum's beloved Peggy-Sue, owned by @PeggyTheParti, could easily have been one of these dogs. She had the good luck to fall into the hands of a family that was willing to put an extraordinary amount of effort into dealing with her reactivity and guarding issues. I think most families would have struggled, and there might ultimately have been a bite issue resulting in euthanization. *A breeder has an ethical obligation to do everything in their power to prevent such suffering in both the dogs and the families that purchase their dogs.* That includes doing appropriate health screenings and only breeding dogs with good health and temperament.
Kennel blindness is something all breeders must own up to. One reason for shows and similar competitive activities is to get evaluations from neutral and qualified people. These kinds of evaluations help prevent the sort of heartbreak I'm talking about in my first point.
Cinnamon clearly has temperament issues. No normal poodle wants to live outside away from her humans. It's impossible to say whether these temperament issues are due to her genetics or the way she was raised. I think it would have been better to hold off on breeding her and perhaps not bred her at all. However, it's too late to turn back the clock on her breeding; what's done is done. Now, given the known issues, these puppies need to be given exemplary care to help the overcome their mother's socialization issues. Additionally, it is even more important to prove any of her offspring are worth breeding. Skittishness is not a desirable trait in any dog, definitely not in a pet, and absolutely not in a service dog prospect. 
It's good to hear that Laci is scheduled for a spay. I hope Cinnamon can go in after this litter is weaned as well. They have earned their retirement and the chance to learn how to be pets instead of puppy factories.


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

standardsofjustus said:


> Thank you for your suggestion! I have already been doin ENS and puppy culture. I have several mentors, one with dog breeding in general (she’s a highly reputable breeder of Bernese Mountain dogs for over 13 years), and a breeder of Standard Poodles, whom she used to show. Dasher was shown and has had several litters from before he came to me, and many of them are currently working as police dogs, service dogs and therapy dogs in hospitals, schools and even juvenile detention facilities.
> 
> I had them inside from day one. I had them under direct supervision, out only to pee or be tethered to me, just like a puppy who is potty training. They did okay, slowly getting used to me and my family. I was slowly introducing them to the rest of the house, when we had a hiccup, and they peed, pooped and threw up all over my living room. I cleaned up, and they proceeded to eliminate in my house constantly ( mind you, I had been taking them out on a schedule, just like a potty-training puppy). Since they grew up in a kennel, they have no innate sense not to step in their excrement and trot it everywhere. I did a great deal of study on how to care for rescued dogs who come from a rough background. The fact of the matter is that they love being outside, and cannot get calm and easy in my house. I have retried several times. I will not stop trying, but first I must find a different way, since the ones I’ve used aren’t connecting for them. I am with my dogs a great deal of the day. If you have any suggestions as to ways to adapt them to the house without making it unsanitary for my baby, I would welcome your insight.


Not sure what advice I can give you. I have had rescue dogs before, one of which was a sled dog. He was about 2 years old and had been at the rescue for a while, per the rescue he and another female dog had been shoved off a truck near an overpass. The female had been injured and since adopted. When we got him home it was apparent he had never lived inside as he didn’t know how to go up and down stairs. He was also not housebroken. The first morning I got up, went to the bathroom and he peed all over the kitchen floor while I was not watching. I took him and my standard poodle out right away and when he went outside again he got lots of praise and a bunch of treats. The next day I did not go to the bathroom but straight outside with him. After a few days he understood the routine and that he would be taken out to do his business at regular intervals. I’d say it took a week at the most for him to be considered reliable, and he had only had that one pee incident on the first morning. That has been my typical experience with all adult dog rescues.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

standardsofjustus said:


> I appreciate your concerns, and the heart in which you voiced them. Although much time and much money, as you have clearly stated, goes into showing dogs and gaining the dog and their owner well-deserved recognition, I do not believe that is the only measure of a dog. There are far and wide dogs the world over who are excellent at their work without having stepped paw in the show ring. Do I value the opinion of experts in their field? Of course! And I shall be getting their evaluations. I will hold myself and my dogs to a very high standard, though not by the same route you would take. I welcome constructive criticism, and am glad to learn from those who have much experience. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors.


By your avoidance in answering my simple question about your stud's health testing or titles and those of the bitch (yes or no, were they tested to CHIC requirements, is the stud titled in anything since you say he was shown) I'm guessing you have bred dogs without full health testing which no matter how you try to spin it again, is indefensible. Even if there are no titles on the sire or dam (the evaluations you say you are going to get should be done before breeding) *responsible* breeders just don't breed dogs without them having passed full health testing first. And though you say you are working with someone who breeds and has shown Poodles, they themselves are a poor mentor if they are advising you to go ahead and breed a stud with incomplete/improper health testing to a bitch with the same who also has questionable temperament. 

You say you came here to learn how to do things right, yet you seem bent on defending yourself when all the things you are doing incorrectly/should do better are pointed out. Starting off wrong with the wrong things in your lines can take years to undue, and depending on the issue, may never be able to be corrected. If you *want* to do things right, find a reputable breeder and start with a good bitch (as I pointed out, spay the current ones and if you can't afford to keep them as pets, rehome them) with a nice pedigree from champions and from fully health tested lines. You can work with that breeder as a mentor (though they will likely rightly require you to title your dog and co-own with them until that happens). Then they will also likely want a say in the stud you breed your girl too which is also good mentoring for you to get a breeding program off on the right foot.


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## Silverbelle (Mar 24, 2020)

Well said, Eclipse.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

standardsofjustus said:


> My reasoning was that she had been taken to breed at other studs homes, and that this time she would just stay.


Studs? Plural? How many times has she been bred?

This is a welcoming forum for poodle lovers, and part of that poodle love is pushing back against unethical breeding practises. Like cowpony, I hope this cycle ends with this litter.


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## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

I'm not calling into question that the original poster cares about these dogs. But, I have to say that his is shocking and painful to read. Whoever these "mentors" are should have stopped this the minute the idea was spoken, and it calls into question their credentials/motives. (Particularly concerning is a Bernie breeder mentoring this - Bernie's are one of the single most unhealthy breeds out there - a good Bernie breeder would tackle the original poster and plead with them to not pursue this path). I hope that the original poster pushes pause on all breeding (neuters stud and spays the bitches) and focuses his/her time on rehabilitating these traumatized bitches so that they can be family pets. During that time the poster can begin to take this breeding program idea seriously and invests time and effort into deep research to see what it takes to build out a solid breeding program. And learn enough about the science of genetics to not think breeding ok to bad will "even things out." Whether the dogs are intended for service, performance, or show - it's a labor of love that takes oodles more than 3k here or there and years of foundation laying. And it takes an educated, proven group of mentors to speak into your life and willingness to listen and not just strike out on a heart-pull or gut feeling. 

If I were to build my own home, I would not traipse out to the woods and start felling random trees because I needed lumber. I would go to builders and architects and hire a GC with proven track records to walk me through the process and work with me every step of the way. Why we value our dogs--living, breathing, sentient beings--so little baffles me.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

standardsofjustus said:


> Thank you for your suggestion! I have already been doin ENS and puppy culture.


That's good! I look forward to seeing "PC Poodle" posts and pictures! Done properly it should mitigate some of the effects of in-utero stress and learned behavior from the mom.
Let me know if you have questions about implementing PC, it can be confusing the first few times. There are several Spoo breeders on the FB group that are regulars, they would be an invaluable resource especially when it comes to breed-specific differences.


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