# I hurt my sweet boys! Grief overload :(



## leoandremysmom (May 31, 2017)

I'm really distraught / grief-stricken over this now. How I wish I would have found and joined this forum before I adopted my sweet poodles!

So, I thought I was being a good citizen my neutering my poodles - I live in a city where it's required to neuter them. So I took them in at 18 weeks and got it done. The vet said nothing about there being a right time to neuter them.

Then someone told me that 4.5 months is too early to neuter a large breed. I read more and found that now they're more likely to get sarcomas, hip dysplasia, and irregular bone growth. I'm so upset because what's done is done. My ignorance hurt my boys. :Cry: I hate myself for this right now, because they're the sweetest, best dogs ever, and all I want to do is spoil and protect them. But continuing to hate myself about my mistake doesn't fix it. I need to just give them the best care possible and think of what I can do to help.

Does anyone have any experience with this, or happen to know anything that might be able to undo this damage? Some kind of low-dose testosterone-replacement therapy? I'm freaking out about this error.

I MUST do something to reverse the damage done to these dogs as soon as possible. I'll be on the phone with this vet asap. He seems very caring with animals, I just wish he'd spoken up BEFORE their surgery.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

I'm sorry I don't know anything about this problem but wanted to reach out and give you a (((hug))) Try not to beat yourself up over this - you sound like a loving poodle mom. Give the boys an extra treat for me (I would love to see a picture)


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## Jokerfest (Mar 23, 2017)

I would get insurance on them both asap so if they do get joint or hip issues and need that costly surgery you can afford to have it done.

I'm not sure if there is a way to reverse this.. hormonal supplements sound good but I dont know if vets offer it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

First, stop blaming yourself. Early neutering was recommended for many years, and many vets still advise it. Then look into how you can protect their joints while they are growing, particularly by managing stairs, jumping, agility training, etc, etc. Good muscle tone is important, so lots of walking, free play, swimming if the opportunity arises, and similar exercise. Be aware of the symptoms of sarcoma, but don't stress too much about it - remember an increase in risk of a rare disease is still a low risk. Even a 25% increase in a disease that affects 4 dogs in 500 only increases the average to 5 dogs in 500. I would second the advice to take out insurance, but for any puppy regardless of neutering, and more especially if you don't have a cushion of savings.

Your dogs are already well ahead of the pack in terms of health - they have an owner who loves them and is concerned for their welfare. They have been vaccinated against the common killers. You are thinking about their training and behavioural welfare, as well as their physical needs. Their chances of living a long, healthy and happy life are already up there in the top 10%, thanks to you. Don't panic, do your research and take sensible precautions, and carry on enjoying them!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Don't blame yourself. You were given bad advice. Vets and human doctors are not ALWAYS right. In fact they can on occasion give bad advice based on how it affects their income. You can not reverse this. Do the best you can to promote good bone strength with exercise and nutrition. Give them the training that will make them valued in your home and those of others. A well trained dog makes its handler happy. In turn the dog is happy because the handler is. Put this behind you. The effects are neither fatal nor in most cases uncomfortable. They will most likely grow a little tall. Most of the possible health problems can be countered by good nutrition and sensible exercise. Do, on no account, let them become obese.
Eric.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Stop beating yourself up over this. You trusted the advise of a professional and there is nothing to be done to reverse the situation. The risks of cancers will be very small and you have taken away risks of testicular and prostate cancers "in exchange" so to speak. the hip and joint issues are a real thing to pay attention to though, but there are also things that you can do to mitigate them. Feed a very high quality large breed puppy or large breed all stages food to get the correct amount of calories and minerals to support proper growth. Limit their bounding up and down stairs. Limit jumping. In all likelihood they will be just fine if you do these things. In the meantime you waiting for something to happen isn't good for any of you.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

You have lots of great advice here from everyone, and fjm said it all perfectly. Keep in mind you can't completely stop them from running, jumping and having fun, but try to avoid and eliminate the worst of the worst. For instance, I can't stop my girls from jumping on and off our very high bed, so I put a bench beside the bed for them.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

1. Be kind to yourself

2. Heed the advice given here by the "wise ones"

3. Enjoy your babies and enjoy many years of loving companionship.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh goodness! Don't worry so much. I think it's better to wait till they're older but for heaven's sake! They use to always neuter them early on. I had male dogs neutered not much later than yours and they were just fine, some for a very long life span. Back in the day, that's what they did...neutered early. Shelter dogs are usually neutered very early. I think the most I ever noticed was a little extra lankiness in the legs because the growth plates don't close as early on when they're neutered so the long bones get longer. Other than that I never had a dog that was neutered early get cancer other than my Doberman and that was stomach cancer...nothing wrong with his legs, nothing to do with neutering as far as I know. And he bounded and jumped when he shouldn't because there was no stopping that lunatic puppy. When I'd open the door, he'd leap over 4 porch steps right onto the concrete below to go rip roar around the yard. In the woods, he jumped over logs and creeks. His bones and joints never gave him a lick of trouble. And dogs before him that were neutered early...no health issues.

It's too bad the vets these days don't recommend holding off for a while. But they need to send their kids to college I suppose. It's better to wait, but it's not likely _dramatically_ better. 

Don't beat yourself up anymore. Your puppies will be fine. Don't jog with them on pavement until they're full grown. Let them be puppies and don't over protect them. Playing, running around the yard isn't going to hurt them. They stop, go, turn, sit, sniff a bush, climb up on a step or a log...all this is good...this irregular activity. It's the repetitious, same pace, same gait, concrete surface, over exertion, etc...that's no good. 

Now, stop stressing. THAT is not healthy for you or the dogs. Get on with it and enjoy your sweet puppies and let them be puppies! :hug:


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Great advice given here. I know how hard it is not to beat yourself up. My son was born with a horrible birth defect, and they have no idea what causes it. So for a long time I regretted everything that I did during my pregnancy. Was it a bad diet? Was it being exposed to paint fumes while painting his crib? Was it wearing deoderant? No idea, but I have finally come to terms with it and stopped feeling guilt there. But now he has autism and I can REALLY feel guilty since I allowed the Drs to vaccinate him and give him antibiotics. I caused it, and now have to suffer the consequences. At least I know now in case I ever decide to have more kids.

But in your case, I feel like it is very much less known that early neutering can cause problems. And thankfully your boys don't show any signs of problems. Tons and tons of dogs are neutered early and while the chances may be increased for some problems I am sure that they will be fine if you follow the advice from others here!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Great advice given here. I know how hard it is not to beat yourself up. My son was born with a horrible birth defect, and they have no idea what causes it. So for a long time I regretted everything that I did during my pregnancy. Was it a bad diet? Was it being exposed to paint fumes while painting his crib? Was it wearing deoderant? No idea, but I have finally come to terms with it and stopped feeling guilt there. But now he has autism and I can REALLY feel guilty since I allowed the Drs to vaccinate him and give him antibiotics. I caused it, and now have to suffer the consequences. At least I know now in case I ever decide to have more kids.
> 
> But in your case, I feel like it is very much less known that early neutering can cause problems. And thankfully your boys don't show any signs of problems. Tons and tons of dogs are neutered early and while the chances may be increased for some problems I am sure that they will be fine if you follow the advice from others here!


My kids and loads of kids have vaccinations and antibiotics and don't have autism. There is no positive proof about what causes that, only suspicions. So I don't think you ought to blame yourself at all. My daughter was put on phenobarbital for a long time after a very long febrile seizure. Now they say that can cause all kinds of problems. I did the best I could with the information they had then and followed the doctor's advice. You did the best with the info you had. And I think kids and dogs need vaccinations and sometimes antibiotics. People use to die from a an infected wound until anitbiotics came along. Maybe they don't need a kazillion repeat vaccinations too frequently but it may well be they need some. That debate is for another time. 

I know it's easy to blame one's self. I sure have about some other things that have happened through life. But it's really nothing but a pity party and feeling sorry for ourselves. So, it's best to brace up, get a stiff upper lip, as they say... and move on. It does nobody any good at all to wallow in guilt, licking our wounds about things we can do nothing about. In fact, it probably does more harm. We all do the best we can with what we know at the time and that's all one can do.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Great advice given here. I know how hard it is not to beat yourself up. My son was born with a horrible birth defect, and they have no idea what causes it. So for a long time I regretted everything that I did during my pregnancy. Was it a bad diet? Was it being exposed to paint fumes while painting his crib? Was it wearing deoderant? No idea, but I have finally come to terms with it and stopped feeling guilt there. *But now he has autism and I can REALLY feel guilty since I allowed the Drs to vaccinate him and give him antibiotics. I caused it, and now have to suffer the consequences. At least I know now in case I ever decide to have more kid*s.
> 
> But in your case, I feel like it is very much less known that early neutering can cause problems. And thankfully your boys don't show any signs of problems. Tons and tons of dogs are neutered early and while the chances may be increased for some problems I am sure that they will be fine if you follow the advice from others here!



You also should not feel guilty and please don't fall into the trap of believing that the proper standard of medical care gave your son autism. The mythology of believing that immunizations are causally linked to development of autism has no scientific evidence to support it. In fact, one of the proponents of this POV has had his research retracted by the Lancet and had his medical license revoked. He had ethical conflicts of interest because of a financial interest in his hypotheses and IMO abused autistic children with invasive medical procedures in an effort to try to prove his case.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/autism.html

https://www.autismspeaks.org/scienc...ms-no-association-between-vaccines-and-autism

:: Vaccinate Your Baby : Measles-Mumps-Rubella (MMR) Vaccine and Autism Studies ::

The dangers of a global population of children without immunity to measles, mumps, rubella, polio and diphtheria are real and serious. Measles, polio and diphtheria kill their victims. Rubella causes blindness and other neurological defects. Mumps can cause sterility in men who are exposed without prior immunity.

chinchillafuzzy I know your family is dealing with complex issues, however, as for the OP you suffering guilt about your son's medical status will not change it and needless suffering is always best avoided. I hope you can find a good and positive path forward for your son and yourself and the rest of his family.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

PB and Lily CD, thank you both for the love and support. The one thing that helps me through is knowing that it was sheer ignorance on my part, though I had been told many times of the link between vaccines and autism I always thought it was one of those "it can't happen to me" things. I wish I had spent more time researching before he was born, but at the time I was too busy researching his birth defect (which only carries a 50% survival rate.) But now I have done research and can see what happened. I am not anti vaccine. I feel very strongly that autism is genetically linked, and certain stimuli cause it to express. If the gut has been wiped clean of good bacteria, then vaccines are given, too soon that is what causes it to express. It was just a horrible cocktail of events that lead to my son having it. But we are working through, and the poodle puppy we are getting in a few months will eventually be trained to be his service dog. So there is a silver lining 

So sorry to hijack this thread OP. I only shared in hopes that I could express my empathy for how you feel about your boys!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

chinchillafuzzy said:


> PB and Lily CD, thank you both for the love and support. The one thing that helps me through is knowing that it was sheer ignorance on my part, though I had been told many times of the link between vaccines and autism I always thought it was one of those "it can't happen to me" things. I wish I had spent more time researching before he was born, but at the time I was too busy researching his birth defect (which only carries a 50% survival rate.) But now I have done research and can see what happened. I am not anti vaccine. I feel very strongly that autism is genetically linked, and certain stimuli cause it to express. If the gut has been wiped clean of good bacteria, then vaccines are given, too soon that is what causes it to express. It was just a horrible cocktail of events that lead to my son having it. But we are working through, and the poodle puppy we are getting in a few months will eventually be trained to be his service dog. So there is a silver lining
> 
> So sorry to hijack this thread OP. I only shared in hopes that I could express my empathy for how you feel about your boys!


You may well be correct. A lot of times science hasn't caught up with things but I guess most mainstream feels like it must go along because science...evidence...scientific procedure is the best we've got. But I can totally understand how this can make people in your shoes wonder and worry. And you could be correct and science can often be wrong. But the bottom line is that you and the OP did what you thought was best with the information you had. You can do no more. And riding yourself with guilt and remorse will not do you or your son any good. I wish you all the best with your son and the great nurturing you're giving him. He needs you whole and not tormented by useless guilt that erodes your wholeness. No doubt you're a terrific, caring mom. That's what counts.

And I am quite sure that the puppy of the OP's will be just fine...as fine as any puppy. Like I said, I've had dogs all my pretty long life and most all were neutered quite early on except for these two tpoos. Oh and a GSD was not neutered till he was about a year. And not a one had any issue related to neutering or not neutering. No skeletal problems, no cancer. They were just fine. My childhood dog...the male (we had a few) use to go riding with my horse and me. He traveled a LOT on trail rides!!!! Long distances. He was healthy as the horse until he was 15 and got hepatitis. Back then I don't think there was a vaccine for that. My Lab did too when I was an adult. She was spayed young. She lived to be 14. My little Jose`...also neutered as a puppy...just lost him at 15 years of age. I can go on and on with several of my dogs. The only one I lost young was my Dobe like I said and not to do with neutering. 

Be thankful, happy and content. You're going to make a wonderful doggie mom OP. Just look how caring you are. :angel:


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

As a father with an autistic son, the tenuous link between autism and vaccines makes me so mad. The author of the article that sparked this entire craziness was Andrew Wakefield. His "study" was not a blind or double blind study, he had no control subjects and his findings were on the back of only 8 subjects!!! ONLY 8! His study was never peer reviewed for crying out loud! 
He was even struck off the medical register and his article is considered entirely fraudulent by every medical professional who has looked at it.

Yet on the back of his fundamentally flawed work have sprung entire segments of the globe who subscribe to his hypothesis, and because of that one singular study children are dieing across the globe daily. Humanity seems to have forgotten iron lungs from polio. Dead kids from measles. Babies born with birth defects from mothers who contracted rubella whilst pregnant. There are children for who vaccines are fatal due to allergies, for them alone we need herd immunity. But parents who think they know better, after trawling the echo chambers of the internet filled with antivax nonsense, than fully qualified medical professionals who have peer reviewed studies on the subject are ruining it for those critical kids who cant be safely vaccinated.



Sorry OP for the tangent, back on topic....

You got your dogs neutered. For every study you bring me on the risks of early neutering, I can show you a dozen on the dangers of late neutering. A early neutered dog may well get cancer, but we have no way of knowing if he was always going to get that type of cancer irrespective of his neutering age. As fjm said a 100% increase in cancer type A is a meaningless statistic in and of itself. Lets assume cancer type A only affects 1 in 10,000 dogs. a 100% increase would only take the cases to 2 in 10,000. So when you read that early neutering increases the risks by XYZ% try to remember that XYZ% counts for nothing against actual numbers than you can get good data from. 

Things we do know however are that dogs neutered early are more likely to be taller with longer legs than if they was neutered after maturity. If they was not cocking the leg to urinate they likely never will now either. They are virtually never going to develop a sexual wanderlust. Those things can be major positives for us and them. As they wont be ruled by hormones to mate they is far more likely to recall than they would following base sexual urges. The cocking of the leg for scent marking can be a distraction from the human who is trying to train a dog.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My neutered dogs lift their legs to mark every bit as much as intact dogs. My son's female dog marks more than any male dog I've ever had. LOL. That's one thing I think won't make too much difference. The thing that happened for me though, when I got my poodles neutered at around 2.5 years old, they finally and suddenly stopped marking in the house! Yeah! :whoo:

Our GSD was dog aggressive at under a year old. This was gosh...about 35 years ago. He ran after another male GSD running down the quiet gravel road in front of our house. (yes, we weren't as responsible then. It never occurred to us to prevent things like that back in the olden days...but we finally got a fence and that was the first step in becoming modern day responsible dog owners) Anyhow, he ran after this dog, sunk his teeth into his flesh and the dog kept running, pulling Ajax's tooth out perpendicularly. It was bleeding like crazy...got him to the vet's who informed me his jaw was broken. While he was in surgery for that, I called as it all sunk in... and said, "tell the vet to neuter him while he's at it." After that, that dog never had a problem with dog aggression. None. 

Now of course, not all dogs are going to be this or that or the other thing or behave in the same way. I'm just telling my stories again. :blah:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

rikkia thank you for your articulate expression of the balances that need to be sought regarding immunizations. When people are suffering the challenges of having an autistic children I am sure that it can be very tempting to follow information that assigns blame for your child's problems to something external and something that could have been avoided "had we only known better." Wakefield's research was deeply deeply flawed and really not qualifiable as well designed research. I used to be amazed that it has lived on as it has, but the internet never lets anything die.

Your thoughtful analysis of alterations of risk also importantly puts balance on the OP's situation with early neuter of her pups. It is essential to have proper context for information to understand it and analyze its actual or potential impact.


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