# You know it's breeders like THIS that make people use BYB!!



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I am in the process of looking into mini breeders for a pet to do pet grooming with and called Amity Kennels and talked to Anne. Well, I got her email and decided to follow up after our conversation.

This is my email.
I'd love to see him but before I waste your time, I can't do over $1000 for a puppy. I have to add shipping as I'm in Texas. I bet he's a beauty and you are the first person I've talked to (talked to lots and lots of people) that offers a lifetime health and TEMPERAMENT guarantee! That's outstanding!


This is her response.
You would never find a puppy with true temperament testing or any of the other testing that I do. I am loosing soooooo much money at $1,400.oo that is is insulting which I am sure you did not mean to do. If you can only afford a small amount than go to your local shelter. Anne


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Personally I don't think $1000 is a SMALL amount of money. I guess people that live like Donald Trump can say that to us pions.


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## Alicia (Oct 23, 2009)

I don't mean to sound judgemental, but I am amazed at the lack of interpersonal skills some people have. I don't know how she meant her words to be recieved, but "where's the love"? I hope a good breeder and a wonderful person in general comes your way with your right and perfect dog!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I don't need her to skirt around the issue. She can simply say no that doesn't work for me not insult me!


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Thats a shame, maybe she was having an off day and took your e-mail the wrong way. Were you asking for a discount on the puppy in question??? It didn't sound to me like you were so why the curt response? I would never respond to a potential buyer like that. I may refer them to another breeder but I think I would my thanks but no thanks a little differently. 
Also what struck me about the response is what she said is 100% UNTRUE. You can find a breeder who does health and temperment testing and whatever else you may be looking for that can and do sell puppies for less money than what she is wanting. Her puppies are worth that much TO HER, just like a litter I breed is worth X amount TO ME. 

What exactly does the lifetime garentee say anyhow on health/temperment? You cannot garentee a puppy's temperment for a lifetime because you cannot control what happens to that puppy once it leaves your care. I can appreciate what she is trying to accomplish and say good for her but realisticly speaking.... ?? 
By the way it really doesnt cost anything to do temperment testing.... What constitutes true testing VS untrue testing? The test results show the puppy's reaactions on the day of the test, they are not set in stone. 

I did reccently tell a family who owns a dog from me to go to a shelter or perhaps consider an adult from breed rescue for their next dog (I am taking their dog back after Thanksgiving). The suggestion was made gently though... Not in a mean spirited kind of way in spite of the tempation. You'll have to stay tuned for the full story once I get him home.  It's very sad. 

When I was talking to breeders looking for Saleen I had a price point that I wanted to stay under. I had to be realistic afterall. Several breeders I corresponded with had puppies that turned out to be out of my range, some waaayyyy out of my range. Not a single one of them responded to me like that and I kept a lot of their contact info for future poodle searches.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, she told me the amount she was asking and I wrote to follow up with what I can spend. We were off by $400. I complimented her in my email and that was that. Honestly I wasn't interested in a cafe dog but I'm trying to be nice and let the blame fall on my shoulders by saying this is all I want to spend on a puppy but her response was mean spirited. $1000 is not cheap for a pet quality puppy and her insinuation that it is and that I should just go to the shelter was wrong.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ugh..

Couldn't she just say,"Sorry, my price is firm." Oh well..... keep looking. I wish I had a puppy for you.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Are they in Pennsylvania?

Not sure if it's the same one and this was a while ago but check this out

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/484480/amity_kennel_is_sued_by_state/index.html

Ok maybe not the same but you never know.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Ugh..
> 
> Couldn't she just say,"Sorry, my price is firm." Oh well..... keep looking. I wish I had a puppy for you.


That's what I was thinking a simple, sorry we couldn't meet in the middle or whatever. Not that I'd want him anyway, I have no interest in cafe au lait colored poodles and like I said I was trying to be nice and not "I don't want your dog, rude." Oh well, crossing that one off the list!:fish:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Olie said:


> Are they in Pennsylvania?
> 
> Not sure if it's the same one and this was a while ago but check this out
> 
> ...


I don't know it sounds like they were selling bull terriers?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

So sorry Kpoo:smow: !!! 

It was completely uncalled for ! Just saying : "Sorry, I would like to stick with my price" would be more than sufficient from her side. 

You do not have to justify your 1000$ to anybody - you have how much you have and that is it ! I am sure that there is a nice breeder out there who would sell pet puppy for 1000 $ - in this economy I can not believe that 2000 $ puppies are "flying off the shelves" :rolffleyes:

Temperament testing costs most of breeders nothing !!!! It is usually done by a fellow breeder, handler or friend trainer , but with her attitude I would not be surprised that she does not have a friend who would do that for her LOL.

Health testing costs, but most of tests are done once in a lifetime and CERF and OFA is about 30$ and 150 $ respectively . Even if total is of the rest comes to 2000 $$$ , it is payed off by JUST A SINGLE PUPPY !!!

*What will turn me off to a BYB will be the fact that I discovered that "all" testing usually does NOT include "all testing " at all !!!! What is done is usually for Sire and the Dam "alternatively" - like Sire would have test for Addison, SA and than Dam for WWdb , OFA both and CERF usually once in a lifetime :fish: so diseases are excluded "by parentage" and so forth !!!! Not to mention that I encountered some that did not have a SINGLE CERF on a bitch and it was a TOP breeder* :wacko:

My 2 cents (grrrrrrrrrrr....)


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Well, she told me the amount she was asking and I wrote to follow up with what I can spend. We were off by $400. I complimented her in my email and that was that. Honestly I wasn't interested in a cafe dog but I'm trying to be nice and let the blame fall on my shoulders by saying this is all I want to spend on a puppy but her response was mean spirited. $1000 is not cheap for a pet quality puppy and her insinuation that it is and that I should just go to the shelter was wrong.


I do not mean to sound rude or mean But breeding is expensive and right now the public wants full health testing as is evidenced by this forum and the chat that goes on . This is not free , I figure it is around 2000.00 per dog The dog food we feed is 50.00 + a bag and I could go on and on Just one day at a show with two dogs is 50.00 and that is not including the hotel fuel to get there and shampoo and and and !!!!FYI 1400.00 is not out of line I send folks to the poodle rescue as well and most of them are grateful Wow I hope I never offend anyone like this . 
I am sorry that you feel this way truly ! But you need to understand the other side of the coin


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, and that's the thing. People say that they test and then there's nothing listed on OFA and they don't do all of the recommended testing but they don't offer lifetime health gurantees on their puppies after incomplete testing. I have a hard time trusting at this point because this is over and over and over.

And it's not that I don't HAVE that $1400 to spend it's that I don't want to spend it. If I found someone that I really trusted and just really adored what they were breeding I'd spend it but I have YET to come across anyone like that.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I do not mean to sound rude or mean But breeding is expensive and right now the public wants full health testing as is evidenced by this forum and the chat that goes on . This is not free , I figure it is around 2000.00 per dog The dog food we feed is 50.00 + a bag and I could go on and on Just one day at a show with two dogs is 50.00 and that is not including the hotel fuel to get there and shampoo and and and !!!!FYI 1400.00 is not out of line I send folks to the poodle rescue as well and most of them are grateful Wow I hope I never offend anyone like this .
> I am sorry that you feel this way truly ! But you need to understand the other side of the coin


Okay I posted same time as you and I DO completely understand it and I don't think it's out of line as long as you're showing and actually doing the health testing. If you aren't or are just saying you are or are "cleared by parentage" then I have other opinions on that. I still don't think you should be RUDE to someone because they don't want to pay your price. I certainly wasn't rude to her first so she had no reason to be rude back to me.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Well, and that's the thing. People say that they test and then there's nothing listed on OFA and they don't do all of the recommended testing but they don't offer lifetime health gurantees on their puppies after incomplete testing. I have a hard time trusting at this point because this is over and over and over.
> 
> And it's not that I don't HAVE that $1400 to spend it's that I don't want to spend it. If I found someone that I really trusted and just really adored what they were breeding I'd spend it but I have YET to come across anyone like that.



I agree , I have noticed some of these mini breeders are asking a lot for their PET puppies but when you go to OFA no patella or other tests are listed for their sires and dams........:wacko:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree , I have noticed some of these mini breeders are asking a lot for their PET puppies but when you go to OFA no patella or other tests are listed for their sires and dams........:wacko:


Yeah that's something that's worried me since I found that out.hwell:


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

That was a curt reply, I will agree. So much can get lost in the written word. To be the devil's advocate, however, It is hard not to get offended when you feel your business is being treated like a garage sale, however. Would you walk into your favorite restaurant, or grocerty store, or shopping mall and declare you can't pay more than 3/4 of the ticketed price? Maybe bidding on items on ebay alters a person's perception and you assume everything is negotiable. But sometimes established businesses do become offended (particularly if they *feel* their goods are already an unappreciated bargain). Of course sometimes haggling is acceptable, but sometimes people *do* get offended when they are treated like a flea market. You may have been the third person to try to haggle her down and she just couldn't take it. Perhaps in the future, a better way to approach it would be to say something along the lines of "Unfortunately, my financial situation can't make this work. Is there any chance for negotiation or are your prices firm?" This way you do not risk putting an *insulting* figure on the table which immediately causes the defensive posturing you experienced here. NO offense intended, just trying to show the other point of view. JMO.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

No - Bigred - I do not find it offensive , but I do not understand what feeding dogs and grooming them has anything to do with puppies :rolffleyes:

Nobody is forced to breed and have puppies ??? Breeders breed to produce next puppy for their showing and expansion of the "line". One puppy or 2 are chosen and/or exchanged and rest are sold as pets!

Now - why pet owners have to "pick up the tab " ??? I suppose breeders would test their dogs for their own sake !!!! NOT FOR US lol !

PS: So - is a dog showing a sport OR a business , hmmmmmm


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> No - Bigred - I do not find it offensive , but I do not understand what feeding dogs and grooming them has anything to do with puppies :rolffleyes:
> 
> Nobody is forced to breed and have puppies ??? Breeders breed to produce next puppy for their showing and expansion of the "line". One puppy or 2 are chosen and/or exchanged and rest are sold as pets!
> 
> ...


This is what I am thinking 100%! These tests are done for YOUR sake as a breeder so that YOU know what you are breeding for YOURSELF! But some where along the way the pet person has been obligated to pick up YOUR tab so that you can continue your lines!

Btw poodlepal, I wasn't treating her "business" like a garage sale. I simply stated that I was limited to this and that I didn't want to waste her time. Did you even READ my original post? I get the feeling that you just jump into things without even reading the original post.:fish:


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Wishpoo Pet owners do not have to pick up the tab. You do not have to buy the puppy.


Why wouldn't feeding, grooming etc factor into the costs? These are all costs associated with running your breeding program. Breeders need to make a profit in order to stay in business. They need to make money for each puppy sold to continue to support their dogs, their homes, their breeding programs. Most are *not* breeding simply for the goal of improving the breed with no need to financially profit or at least break even. They have to financially support the entire program. Pet puppies cost the breeder exactly as much to produce as the show prospects do.

Dog showing is a sport for some and business for many. Most people do not have the discretionary income to throw into showing dogs simply for the sport of it. There are no financial rewards in showing itself. HOw are you going to pay for your property taxes, mortgage, food, dog food, vet bills ets? Through your appropriately priced product. People will charge what the market will bear.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> No - Bigred - I do not find it offensive , but I do not understand what feeding dogs and grooming them has anything to do with puppies :rolffleyes:
> 
> Nobody is forced to breed and have puppies ??? Breeders breed to produce next puppy for their showing and expansion of the "line". One puppy or 2 are chosen and/or exchanged and rest are sold as pets!
> 
> ...


Wow - you just nailed this one!!! That is exactly how I see this side of it.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> This is what I am thinking 100%! These tests are done for YOUR sake as a breeder so that YOU know what you are breeding for YOURSELF! But some where along the way the pet person has been obligated to pick up YOUR tab so that you can continue your lines!
> 
> Btw poodlepal, I wasn't treating her "business" like a garage sale. I simply stated that I was limited to this and that I didn't want to waste her time. Did you even READ my original post? I get the feeling that you just jump into things without even reading the original post.:fish:


So if I am to understand what you are saying, that you feel like you should not have to pay for the testing or the Good food . so why not buy from the newspaper? These dogs are usually not tested and fed pedigree or whatever is on sale . So .. Seriously ..., there will always be folks that are willing to pay for fully tested pups at the breeders price . When that stops so do most of the breeders Unfortunately you pick up the tab for this persons hobby that is the way of dogs ...It always has been and it always will be ... You want dogs with titles and dogs that have been tested . So you will pay the price , sorry to say but this is true ... Unless you are willing to compromise.
As a breeder this is how I feel.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I am going to hazard a guess that none of you who have this belief about pricing have ever actually managed your own business and most likely haven't taken any business management 101 courses. Anyone who has would know why ALL costs associated with running a business trickle down and are reflected in the products final cost, otherwise known as the COGS (cost of goods sold). I truly fear for the future of our capitalistic society if this is they type of education our school systems are putting out. Think of it this way. Let's say you are a sole proprieter and your business income IS your personal income. You need to make X$ to afford to live your lifestyle. Every cost associated with running your business comes out of YOUR personal income. If your business costs go UP, either your personal income goes DOWN or you raise the price of your GOODS.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> So if I am to understand what you are saying, that you feel like you should not have to pay for the testing or the Good food . so why not buy from the newspaper? These dogs are usually not tested and fed pedigree or whatever is on sale . So .. Seriously ..., there will always be folks that are willing to pay for fully tested pups at the breeders price . When that stops so do most of the breeders Unfortunately you pick up the tab for this persons hobby that is the way of dogs ...It always has been and it always will be ... You want dogs with titles and dogs that have been tested . So you will pay the price , sorry to say but this is true ... Unless you are willing to compromise.
> As a breeder this is how I feel.


I don't care about dogs with titles. Do YOUR dogs have titles? If you did the health testing I would expect to pay more because you did the health testing yes. Should I be expected to pay the same as someone getting the TOP pick of the litter? Sorry, no as a pet owner I don't believe that's quite fair.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

No - actually I am completely at lost since for couple of years now I was brainwashed that dog showing is a sport and does not bring ANY income whatsoever LMAO !!!! 

Thanks for all who made it clear now that producing puppies equals a bred on the table for many !!! I can completely understand the logic than !

BUT, I would never buy from a breeder who has to make a living breeding dogs - sorry

I would rather give my 2000 $ to a lady who has very successful career and high education and breeds dogs just for the love of them


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> I am going to hazard a guess that none of you who have this belief about pricing have ever actually managed your own business and most likely haven't taken any business management 101 courses. Anyone who has would know why ALL costs associated with running a business trickle down and are reflected in the products final cost, otherwise known as the COGS (cost of goods sold). I truly fear for the future of our capitalistic society if this is they type of education our school systems are putting out. Think of it this way. Let's say you are a sole proprieter and your business income IS your personal income. You need to make X$ to afford to live your lifestyle. Every cost associated with running your business comes out of YOUR personal income. If your business costs go UP, either your personal income goes DOWN or you raise the price of your GOODS.


Yeah my husband works in retail so yeah I get it. Guess you've cleared up a lot of misconception about dog breeding being for the benefit of the breed verses the making of the money for "goods." Thanks for clearing that up for everyone.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

Granted, she could have been nicer in her response. I do also understand what you mean about it being easier to go with a byb. I had this experience when searching for a puppy. However, the only way for there to be good breeders out there is if they do hold to the standards in price as well as the standards for the type of home they want for their puppies. I am sure you are a good home, so I guess price was her only issue. But I can only imagine that having puppies is almost like having your own little children running around the house and the breeder thinks they are worth much more than money. So, if you have children you probably understand that if they don't get 1st place at the pageant or art contest or whatever-it may hurt your feelings a little bit. A breeder who truly cares about her puppies probably feels the same way. I would say that you could have approached her about a payment plan or putting a deposit on a future litter, but I understand that you don't want to pay more than the $1400. I got my puppy from writing my breeder and telling them that I knew their puppies were worth what they were asking and more, but that I simply didn't have that at that time. I told them I am sure they can find homes for their puppies but if in the end they had a pup they could not place, then I was more than willing to pay the ___ amount. In the end, they sold me the puppy because I was a good home. They could have sold her to someone else, but they didn't. I consider myself priviledged. I know I didn't have a right to get my puppy at the price I did.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> No - actually I am completely at lost since for couple of years now I was brainwashed that dog showing is a sport and does not bring ANY income whatsoever LMAO !!!!
> 
> Thanks for all who made it clear now that producing puppies equals a bred on the table for many !!! I can completely understand the logic than !
> 
> ...


Wouldn't we all! Unfortunately, if those type of people were the only ones selling dogs, puppies would cost WAY more than any of us could afford. Because there are very few people who feel like selling puppies at a financial loss. Those kind of people have maybe one or two litters a year. AND, if they are smart, educated and successful they ARE NOT about to lose money on their litters! They will absolutely charge a high amount for each puppy, be it a show stopper or run of the mill pet quality pup!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> No - actually I am completely at lost since for couple of years now I was brainwashed that dog showing is a sport and does not bring ANY income whatsoever LMAO !!!!
> 
> Thanks for all who made it clear now that producing puppies equals a bred on the table for many !!! I can completely understand the logic than !
> 
> ...


OMG I could never live off my dogs that is just crazy ! Dog breeding is losing proposition at its best.. We will never break even .. i will never make you understand either...Of course dog showing is a sport ! So is dog breeding . so are you saying that only rich people should breed Seriously ? From what I have read on this forum Everyone expect a breeder to test and have titles and sell their dogs for less than 1000.00 dollars right ? Good luck ! Beam me up scotty ! Think about what you are saying !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> OMG I could never live off my dogs that is just crazy ! Dog breeding is losing proposition at its best.. We will never break even .. i will never make you understand either...Of course dog showing is a sport ! So is dog breeding . so are you saying that only rich people should breed Seriously ? From what I have read on this forum Everyone expect a breeder to test and have titles and sell their dogs for less than 1000.00 dollars right ? Good luck ! Beam me up scotty ! Think about what you are saying !!!!!!!!!!!!!


Asking again, are you showing your red dogs and finishing them? If you are and you are testing them for everything you are supposed to then you can educate us on how much us wee pet owners need to invest in one of your puppies. If you aren't then I don't understand why you are insisting that your dogs should cost more than a pet owner that's breeding their pets. Like I said, I want to pay more for people doing ALL (not just some) of the appropriate testing and confirming to me that their dogs hold up to the PCA standard by showing their dogs and winning!


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

Some don't have a clue!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Asking again, are you showing your red dogs and finishing them? If you are and you are testing them for everything you are supposed to then you can educate us on how much us wee pet owners need to invest in one of your puppies. If you aren't then I don't understand why you are insisting that your dogs should cost more than a pet owner that's breeding their pets. Like I said, I want to pay more for people doing ALL (not just some) of the appropriate testing and confirming to me that their dogs hold up to the PCA standard by showing their dogs and winning!


And so I rest my case . If I am to understand this thread You want a dog for 1000.00 or less that is tested and comes from champion lines . Right ? Is this a valid question ? Think about what you are saying ...
....


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

desertreef said:


> Some don't have a clue!


And they never will... OMG !!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> And so I rest my case . If I am to understand this thread You want a dog for 1000.00 or less that is tested and comes from champion lines . Right ? Is this a valid question ? Think about what you are saying ...
> ....


I'd like to know why you keep avoiding the question of whether or not you have FINISHED any of your RED dogs? Please enlighten me with that information because you are certainly BREEDING them we've seen that often enough on here yet you are here to put me in my PET place! 

I'll pay what I feel comfortable paying with a breeder I trust. So far I haven't found that person. Did you need me to post my bank account information or just maybe send you a copy of my husband's paycheck?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> And they never will... OMG !!!


LOL OMG I don't think she was talking about me.LOLOLOL


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> LOL OMG I don't think she was talking about me.LOLOLOL


Nope not talking about you ! Obviously for some reason I have offended you . Not sure how not sure why i do not breed very much at all . In my lifetime I have had three litters.... Finished many dogs .. But why is that important ? What does this mean to you I am not selling you a dog.. So not sure where the bank account thing came in . Not sure Why I have to account for what I do to you either Can you please explain to me why you are so angry with me ? My red dogs have they offended you in some way ? Have I offended you in some way ....


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Let's do some quick, rudimentary math. Let's say I am a *hobby* breeder, and I am independantly wealthy and only have the interest in bettering the breed at heart (since we apparently are living in a fantasy world that is full of independantly wealthy people who have nothing better to do with their extra money than spend it on this charity). In other words, I am not trying to *make* money, but I at least want to come out even. So, I have one bitch and one dog. I am going to spend over 20K finishing and health testing those dogs ALONE. Do the math. Let's say, entry fees are about $35/show. I need fifteen points, two of which are majors. It is probably going to take me at least 50 shows for each of my dogs to get my fifteen points. And I will probably have to get a professional to do the majors, that will cost about $500 per weekend and if I get *lucky* maybe only 6 weekends out will get my majors. Plus I will have hotel, food and travel expenses for all those weekends I am trying to put the single points on. Maybe that is another $200 per weekend. These costs are at the low end! I might have to get a professional EVERY weekend because I am a smart, business person with a real job and I can't possibly be traveling the country showing dogs! Then there is health testing. If I am lucky, I am can complete all the testing on my dogs for $1000 each (one time...not to mention the tests that need to be repeated). So already I am out over 20K. How am I going to recoup that amount of money with my one litter per year? Maybe I have 10 puppies. I need to seel each for at least $2000. But then there are vet fees associated with the pregnancy. I probably am going to at least get an ultrasound, maybe an xray. Hopefully it will be an easy, uneventful pregnancy with no need for csections or puppy expenses. Then there are puppy exams, immunizations and care. I also have advertising costs, time spent away from my lucrative job to interview prospective buyers and make sure they aren't crazy fools, etc. Looks like I am losing money here, unless I have another litter next year and maybe then I will show some small profit. I will need to repeat some health testing. With my second litter maybe I will make some money off of my initial investment loss. Maybe I will have a third litter. However, I am not even considering all the day to day costs associated with keeping my dogs fed, sheltered and healthy. And you wonder why puppies cost so much?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

after a few long discussions with my mother ((And the rest of the family))
we've decided to start the process of looking for another standard poodle

whether its a puppy or adult...what price range should I be looking at then?
((my summer job and current job have racked up a nice savings account for me so I'm not going to be a cheapskate like I was with Elphie either xD ))
from this forum I've learned ALOT about reputable breeders and I'm NOT going to settle like I did for Elphie

This thread has just made me curious
whats a reasonable amount for a pet home?


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

$1200-2000 depending on your area.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

see thats good to know,
most of the breeders sites I've been to haven't listed prices
and I felt like I was floating in the water o.o
not knowing what to expect to pay
((of course I haven't contacted any breeders yet, we want to wait until around the same time of the year we got Elphie, May-July))


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Nope not talking about you ! Obviously for some reason I have offended you . Not sure how not sure why i do not breed very much at all . In my lifetime I have had three litters.... Finished many dogs .. But why is that important ? What does this mean to you I am not selling you a dog.. So not sure where the bank account thing came in . Not sure Why I have to account for what I do to you either Can you please explain to me why you are so angry with me ? My red dogs have they offended you in some way ? Have I offended you in some way ....


Okay let's do some math shall we? If you have a litter of standard poodle puppies. Let's say you had 6, although most have more let's keep it small, and you sold every puppy for $1000 each. You just made $6000. Okay let's start taking out your expenses in order for you to feel justified in asking more than that.

Please help me here because I'm NOT a breeder of dogs so I'll have the cost of these things off since I don't know expenses and I live in a part of the country where things run cheaper than others.

Now do you give your own shots? If not then you are probably spending $70 per puppy per visit and most just have 2 sets before they leave for their new homes based on the shot schedule. That's $140 per puppy = $840. Tail docking is what $100 per puppy if you don't do it yourself=$600. Food until a puppy goes home at 8 weeks, let's make that $300. Various toys, puppy pads, wormings, etc (let's go big) $600. Well, that totals $2440. Now if you have not shown your dogs in conformation or put them out with a handler you cannot take that out of your litter profits. I don't see any of them with Ch. in front of their names so I'm assuming they aren't finished so you are going to subtract the immediate expenditures to give you a left over profit in that litter of $3560. Now that's ONLY if you are asking $1000 per puppy and from your reaction to that amount you are NOT asking that amount per puppy. So you'd probably need to add another $3,000 to this total because more than likely you are asking what most breeders are asking which is $1,500. That's what I've seen from people that actually have finished champions and that was when I was looking into showing in conformation. So if we add that $3,000 back to our profit of $3,560 that gives us a grand total profit of $6,560!! Wow so let's for your benefit take off all those expensive tests for both of your breeding dogs, I'll take off $1,500 per dog so you are back to $3560 for raising pet puppies and selling them to pet homes. 

My problem with you is that you are getting involved in a side of an argument that you don't belong in because you aren't doing the things you are arguing for like finishing your red dogs. No one says that breeders don't deserve to make money off of the hard work of raising a litter of puppies but at least be honest about it and don't treat someone like crap because they don't want to spend what you are asking, just tell them to move on.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Keith: Nothing has happened to Elphie, right? You are looking for a playmate?

You *may* find some cheaper, but if you find the average to be $x and a breeder to sell for notably cheaper....I would dig to find out why! And you know now to do all those things you didn't do before! There is no comparison to a well bred poodle, all the way around they are superior.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

no no Elphie is perfect
I was talking to my mom about rescuing a standard puppy and it snowballed the conversation into getting another puppy, she all but made me sign a contract saying I'd do it the right way this time

I just wanted a ball park price to start the search ^_^
so thank you for that


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I will leave you with this last tidbit, Keith. Poodles are like potato chips. You can't have just one!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

lol its getting a little off topic xD
but the way I've been almost...pestering my mom into the other poodle idea
is the pokemon thing...
"Gotta Catch em all POODLES"
I say that like 20x's a day


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Maybe off topic - but sort of a similar question; why do some breeders charge different prices for different colors or genders? I found several breeders in my search for Lucy who were charging substantially more for females than they were for males - I spay and neuter ALL of my pets and I would have references from several area veterinarians that would affirm that - so it's not like I would be taking a female and breeding her (I also managed a humane society for 4 years and I hate indiscriminate breeding just for the sake of breeding - too many people just breed because they own something with a uterus - I'm not one of those)

So just curious why the price difference if all the puppies in a litter are of comparable value, why charge different prices for different genders (or color, for example)?

I have read (somewhere here, I think, since this is the only dog forum I belong to) that it is a red-flag if a breeder does this... is that true?

Thanks in advance for your input...


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Okay let's do some math shall we? If you have a litter of standard poodle puppies. Let's say you had 6, although most have more let's keep it small, and you sold every puppy for $1000 each. You just made $6000. Okay let's start taking out your expenses in order for you to feel justified in asking more than that.
> 
> Please help me here because I'm NOT a breeder of dogs so I'll have the cost of these things off since I don't know expenses and I live in a part of the country where things run cheaper than others.
> 
> ...


Not trying to get in volved just staing my opinion Which if you did not want opinions why did you post to this forum , I do show my dogs . But that is not your concern..WE are not doing business, just adding my two cents to what offended you and hoping that I could make you understand and hopefully make you feel better as your feelings were obviously hurt and now mine are . I was not trying to offend you just trying to explain what this person probably meant to say But perhaps was having a bad day ? As you obviosly are.. I am sorry for that.. But agian not my problem... I guess I will graciously back out now Please be kind enough to excuse my intrusion into your private tirade. No offense intended to you or anyone else. Please do not continue to attack me as I do not deserve it..


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

PLUMCRAZY - just for you to know - NO reputable breeder would EVER charge different amount for gender, color or even quality !!!! Top breeders charge same for show and pet quality - so be smart and choose the best puppy "in the
nest" that you can ; )) ! AND - although I said I am angry at breeders who "invent" stories and do not do all testing necessary - there are very nice, educated breeders with a class out there !!! Look for them


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I'm sorry you received such a curt response to your statement Kpoos. I think you were very upfront about what you had to offer, and the breeder was pretty abrupt in her response to you.

Her price is higher than I have ever been quoted for a mini, 1200 is the norm from the many breeders I have contacted both in Canada and the US. And I know one member of this forum with a beautiful little mini who paid less than 1000 apparently from fully health tested pups. So don't give up, your perfect pup is out there!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> not trying to get in volved just staing my opinion which if you did not want opinions why did you post to this forum , i do show my dogs . But that is not your concern..we are not doing business, just adding my two cents to what offended you and hoping that i could make you understand and hopefully make you feel better as your feelings were obviously hurt and now mine are . I was not trying to offend you just trying to explain what this person probably meant to say but perhaps was having a bad day ? As you obviosly are.. I am sorry for that.. But agian not my problem... I guess i will graciously back out now please be kind enough to excuse my intrusion into your private tirade. no offense intended to you or anyone else. Please do not continue to attack me as i do not deserve it..


*this thread is becoming personal with attacks. Please return to the intention of the thread with respect toward posters' opinions. Opinions are just that, opinions.*


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

I think that we should be happy for breeders who can command a high price for their poodles. Obviously, they are doing something right. This is a free market society (for now, at least). If you don't like the price, don't buy it! That's why some people shop at kmart and others at Neiman Marcus for virtually the same products. It is what makes this country great. Don't begrudge those who can make more/spend more money.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> *What will turn me off to a BYB will be the fact that I discovered that "all" testing usually does NOT include "all testing " at all !!!! What is done is usually for Sire and the Dam "alternatively" - like Sire would have test for Addison, SA and than Dam for WWdb , OFA both and CERF usually once in a lifetime :fish: so diseases are excluded "by parentage" and so forth !!!! Not to mention that I encountered some that did not have a SINGLE CERF on a bitch and it was a TOP breeder* :wacko:
> 
> My 2 cents (grrrrrrrrrrr....)


I totally agree wishpoo! I was thinking that exact thing the other day. The number of breeders I have come across who sell their pups for top dollar yet don't do all or even any health testing is staggering. Some don't even have championships on their dogs. So if the dogs aren't champions and don't have health testing, how are they any different from backyard bred dogs? It really is hard to comprehend some of the things that go on in poodle breeding and how it's justified.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Dianne and I are going to go the route of titling our poodles through the AKC as well as getting CGC'S on them. We have quickly become aware of how expensive this is going to be. We will also get our dogs tested when they come of age. Dianne administers the shots that she is able to give. There are still plenty of vet visits in between. We feed a combination of a good quality dog food and raw diet with supplements to keep them and their coats in top shape and health. 

Most people are looking for puppies from dogs that have all of the above. It costs a lot of money as mentioned earlier in the thread to achieve this. We have five dogs and plan to breed each female three times before retiring her. This means that we will eventually have to pick new pups to continue the line. More expenses. Retired dogs still need to be given the same quality care until they take that journey over the rainbow bridge. 

I have been involved in business both with the non-profit town accounts, church accounts, and my self-employment to know that in order to keep going, money has to be made to reinvest. Although the first and foremost purpose for us to breed is to offer the best example of the breed as possible. What is not possible is to differentiate between show quality and pet quality with each breeding if you are breeding to get the best. The goal is to produce the best. There is no such thing as breeding for all show quality pups or for all pet quality pups. You are going to get both.

Our puppies will sell for the same price whether they be red or green, female or male. It costs the same to produce a show quality as it does to produce pet quality pups. Show quality pups do not always get placed into show homes. Some pet buyers will get a bonus and end up with one now and then. They will be priced to reflect our expenses in producing these babies and continuing our program. I can tell you that it is a passion of love for the breed that motivates our breeding program but I must also say that there is no way of getting away from the fact that there is a business aspect to it that cannot be ignored.

It is our hope that we will produce show quality pups in the future and will place them into show homes. It is our mission to place all of our pups into good, screened, loving homes that are appropriate for them and for their new families.

Any breeder who speaks to you the way that you were spoken to doesn't deserve your business anyway. Customer service! There is no such thing as a bad day when dealing with the public. I guess it must have escaped her. Continue with your research. You will eventually find what you are looking for at the price that you can afford and develop a good relationship with your breeder; which, in my opinion is a must. You are looking for a puppy with tested parents and pedigree. $1,000 is on the lower side but certainly not impossible. You may find one that has not been picked and the breeder wants to move. In that case, you have gotten a good deal. I wish you the best in finding the right breeder and puppy for you.


_


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Im just going to erase my posting here. Im not sure I want to get involved in all this after all. lol

Keeping my opinion to myself after all.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Well said, Spoo. It is VERY expensive to go through the titling and testing alone, not to mention the ongoing care expense. Most of us don't do multiple back to back breedings and three litters is about our max if not less. Producing high quality puppies is not a lucrative business at all. This is, unfortunately, why we find a lot of high volume breeders out there. They are trying to make as much profit as possible. The rest of us are lucky to break even. However, the public perception remains...we are making money hand over fist because we charge $1500 a puppy.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Poodlepal said:


> Well said, Spoo. It is VERY expensive to go through the titling and testing alone, not to mention the ongoing care expense. Most of us don't do multiple back to back breedings and three litters is about our max if not less. Producing high quality puppies is not a lucrative business at all. This is, unfortunately, why we find a lot of high volume breeders out there. They are trying to make as much profit as possible. The rest of us are lucky to break even. However, the public perception remains...we are making money hand over fist because we charge $1500 a puppy.


_
LOL....if that were the case, my husband and I would be able to retire and just raise our spoos!! LOL I'll be happy to break even if i can._


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> PLUMCRAZY - just for you to know - NO reputable breeder would EVER charge different amount for gender, color or even quality !!!! Top breeders charge same for show and pet quality - so be smart and choose the best puppy "in the
> nest" that you can ; )


Thank you wishpoo - that is what I thought I had heard (read) at one point. It's amazing how many websites I visited that had a variety of prices within the same litter! Since I was specifically looking for a female (whole 'nother thread!  ) I was disappointed to find some breeders charging quite a bit more for the girls - especially since after altering, they're sort of the same as the boys anyway... 

I asked one breeder via email why they charged more for girls (since all of their pet puppies were sold on limited registration anyway) and she responded that the girls are more of a "risk" if placed in less than scrupulous homes where someone might be tempted to breed before spaying (or perhaps not getting spayed at all - hopefully the pre-purchase screening could weed those people out, though...)

While I do understand that - it would be nice for breeders who DO charge extra for their girls upfront to refund the difference once they receive proof of spay from the veterinarian. I was feeling a little discriminated against just because I prefer spayed females in my pack at this point in my life...

I've also seen sites where a "dark red" puppy goes for more than a "light red" puppy - but anyone who has done a speck of research in the reds understands that the color can (and most likely will) change with age (and not just the reds!) so to charge more for an 8 week old "dark red" puppy who may fade to the same color as his/her "light red" siblings in a few years is silly, IMO!

And just in case anyone is confused - the boys and girls in Lucy's litter were all the same price (YAY!), and the price I was asked to pay was well within the "ballpark" of the prices of other quality breeders I had researched.

Ok, sorry for the tangent - carry on!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Ok, sorry for the tangent - carry on!


_
Thank you, mam! (salutes) LOL!!_


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Wow, so if you're only willing to pay a measley $1000 you should go get a lowly shelter dog!?! Her response would be laughable if it weren't so witchy. I figure my puppy will cost anywhere from $1000-2000 and I'm happy to pay that for a *quality* puppy. However anyone who thinks $1000 is peanuts, needs to join us in the real world. That would be the real world with the biggest deficit since WWII, a record setting unemployment rate and a weak economy. (I find the comment about Kmart vs Neimans offensive and an argument could be made that the Kmart shoppers are smart shoppers. Just b/c you don't feel the need to waste money on designer labels, doesn't mean you aren't an excellent dog owner.) 

Kpoos, you are absolutely right, this is why people go to BYBs. They don't want to deal w/ snobby, rude breeders like this one. I realize you know not all breeders are like that, but if she were the first show person someone came into contact w/ they would go running to a friendly BYB. This is where the perception comes from. Nothing wrong w/ sticking to the price you think is fair for your puppies, but to tell someone the should just go to shelter b/c the can only pay $1000, is horrid. 

I also agree that people should be breeding for the love of it not the money. Breeding cost money, but you shouldn't be using your dog's uterus to pay the mortgage.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

LOL Oh poodlepal you are such a fun game player. Neiman Marcus verses K-Mart huh, well that's a good one. So you are saying that if I choose the breeder that has all testing done and has a 5-gen pedigree with 100% champions but she's willing to let one of her dogs go to me as a pet for less than $1000 then I'm definitely shopping K-Mart? Boy what a bubble you live in because it's possible that people just don't care if they lose money because they weren't doing the breeding to make the money back! They were doing the breeding to get another addition to their breeding program.

See if this is YOUR hobby YOU are responsible for paying for it. Not me, the pet owner that's taking in your puppies that YOU are producing and giving them a nice loving home. What if all of us pet owners just vanished? Then what would the breeders do?You, poodlepal, make it seem like you are doing US, the pet owner, a favor by showing and producing puppies so that we have quality puppies to own so we need to pay the big bucks for that. To me that sounds really screwy because I don't think anyone forced your hand to begin the hobby in the first place. I guess it's just me being naive again in thinking that because you chose this you'd have to pay for it, maybe I'm wrong and the world does owe you something.

I'm almost embarrassed that I'd spend $1000 on a puppy when some people don't even have jobs to feed their kids and there are people on here complaining that I won't spend MORE! That's just beyond me.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

There is a great deal of snobbish attitude in some poodle breeding circles - I think that some try to live vicarious lives through their dogs since they never had a chance to live a glamorous life but are now trying to experience "importance" by being "somebody" in a "dog world". Same as it goes for crazy mothers who try to live through their poor children in pageantry events :smow:.

I suppose that raising high quality S. Husky or a Labrador would cost the same amount of the money. Same amount of food, same immunization, same cost for showing entrance, I suppose they also bring their bitches for exams during pregnancy and that they definitely need to do health testing on their breeding animals. 

Now - how they can "survive" by selling top quality puppies for 900 $ to 1,300 $$ - I really don't know LOL Maybe all those homeless people that we see on the streets are actually ex Husky breeders (GASP !!!!???)


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

According to this currency converter:
http://www.xe.com/ucc/

The average breeder in my country charges

$500-$900 in US dollars, for a puppy from a breeder, and that is everyone from a BYB to a reputable breeder that health test. But a NZKC breeder charges more if you are getting a puppy to show and breed.

Over where you guys are, you are paying heaps for puppies in comparison to us!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> Thank you wishpoo - that is what I thought I had heard (read) at one point. It's amazing how many websites I visited that had a variety of prices within the same litter! Since I was specifically looking for a female (whole 'nother thread!  ) I was disappointed to find some breeders charging quite a bit more for the girls - especially since after altering, they're sort of the same as the boys anyway...
> 
> I asked one breeder via email why they charged more for girls (since all of their pet puppies were sold on limited registration anyway) and she responded that the girls are more of a "risk" if placed in less than scrupulous homes where someone might be tempted to breed before spaying (or perhaps not getting spayed at all - hopefully the pre-purchase screening could weed those people out, though...)
> 
> ...


 Perhaps these people were just beginning did this ever occur to you ? It does not make them unscrupulous just naive and green. Perhaps asking and giving advise may be more beneficial . Females are a risk to sell and if the person calling makes you nervous in anyway I could see this happening...
But then the difference in different breeders prices can be huge.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> There is a great deal of snobbish attitude in some poodle breeding circles - I think that some try to live vicarious lives through their dogs since they never had a chance to live a glamorous life but are now trying to experience "importance" by being "somebody" in a "dog world". Same as it goes for crazy mothers who try to live through their poor children in pageantry events :smow:.
> 
> I suppose that raising high quality S. Husky or a Labrador would cost the same amount of the money. Same amount of food, same immunization, same cost for showing entrance, I suppose they also bring their bitches for exams during pregnancy and that they definitely need to do health testing on their breeding animals.
> 
> Now - how they can "survive" by selling top quality puppies for 900 $ to 1,300 $$ - I really don't know LOL Maybe all those homeless people that we see on the streets are actually ex Husky breeders (GASP !!!!???)


OH gosh labs are full of health problems and at one time they were THE popular breed and their puppies pulled in the $1500-2000 price tag. Now the breed is so full of health problems and hip dysplasia that you can't give one away because people are struggling with the ones they have and there are so many out there that the pet market is pretty much saturated. There is something in retail they call saturation and when that happens your business is pretty much screwed because you have no one left to sell to. The reason poodles are so popular right now is because of the stupid doodle market. These "designer" mutts are causing problems for those of us that just want nice poodle pets. It's increasing the demand for high quality poodles therefore allowing breeders to charge enough that profits are quite frequently obtained. Now, I am not naive enough to think that you are going to show a dog and finish it (most require handlers) and make a profit on your litter but this is your hobby so you need to fit the bill somewhat for your own hobby or keep all of your dogs and take care of them yourself. That's another topic entirely for a new day.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

what qualifies someone as a high volume breeder?
I've seen it mentioned and I saw Spoospirit said she will only breed a female 3 times

is someone a high volume breeder if they're popping more then 2-3 litters a year? or is 2-3 still too much?


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> what qualifies someone as a high volume breeder?
> I've seen it mentioned and I saw Spoospirit said she will only breed a female 3 times
> 
> is someone a high volume breeder if they're popping more then 2-3 litters a year? or is 2-3 still too much?


I think that a high volume breeder has puppies available at all times.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I charge $1500 for my puppies. With the next litter I think I will charge $1800. Why? Because I can. People want my puppies and they are willing to pay that much for them. With the last litter I had a waitlist for my waitlist.

I have three teens. All of them will be in college at the same time starting in 2 years. My dog hobby has to pay for itself or I would not be able to do it. 

With my last litter, my breeding related expenses were around $5200. I had 6 puppies, but only 5 to sell because I was keeping one. I co-own Gracy with KB and split the profits with her. So for months of work, I earned something like $1000. This is a huge drag because I planned to put the profits back into showing the puppy I kept. 

I think everyone knows that a pro handler is really expensive; we like to calculate that for the typical Poodle it takes a $1000 a point to finish. However, showing in performance isn't cheap either. I spent around $300 to go to the Pueblo show (entries, food, lodging) and I came home with no Utility legs. 

So yes... my dogs are expensive. I'd like to think that I'm doing a good job and that my dogs are good quality. I guess we will see if the buying public continues to think so.


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> LOL Oh poodlepal you are such a fun game player. Neiman Marcus verses K-Mart huh, well that's a good one. So you are saying that if I choose the breeder that has all testing done and has a 5-gen pedigree with 100% champions but she's willing to let one of her dogs go to me as a pet for less than $1000 then I'm definitely shopping K-Mart? Boy what a bubble you live in because it's possible that people just don't care if they lose money because they weren't doing the breeding to make the money back! They were doing the breeding to get another addition to their breeding program.
> 
> See if this is YOUR hobby YOU are responsible for paying for it. Not me, the pet owner that's taking in your puppies that YOU are producing and giving them a nice loving home. What if all of us pet owners just vanished? Then what would the breeders do?You, poodlepal, make it seem like you are doing US, the pet owner, a favor by showing and producing puppies so that we have quality puppies to own so we need to pay the big bucks for that. To me that sounds really screwy because I don't think anyone forced your hand to begin the hobby in the first place. I guess it's just me being naive again in thinking that because you chose this you'd have to pay for it, maybe I'm wrong and the world does owe you something.
> 
> I'm almost embarrassed that I'd spend $1000 on a puppy when some people don't even have jobs to feed their kids and there are people on here complaining that I won't spend MORE! That's just beyond me.


Since obviously it is YOU who are so avidly seeking out a puppy (as indicated from you multiple multiple posts searching for the perfect puppy) from all of these *cheaters* and *unscrupulous, greedy breeders*, the breeders ARE doing you a favor by producing these puppies and yes you SHOULD pay the big bucks for them if that is what you want! I don't see a lot of breeders beating down people's doors to coerce them to buy their high-priced puppies. On the other hand, I see a lot of people waiting for years to get the puppy they desire. Seems like you are having quite a difficulty finding one yourself, I wonder why that is? So, if you don't want to do a breeder a *favor*, DON'T buy one of their puppies (and do the puppy a favor as well).


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Perhaps these people were just beginning did this ever occur to you ? It does not make them unscrupulous just naive and green. Perhaps asking and giving advise may be more beneficial . Females are a risk to sell and if the person calling makes you nervous in anyway I could see this happening...
> But then the difference in different breeders prices can be huge.


I guess I don't understand what you're saying (or maybe you didn't understand what *I* was saying... 

What people are just beginning?? The breeder or the buyer? Who's naive and green? The breeder or the buyer?

Asking and giving advice is what we're doing here, isn't it?

One of the suggestions I had was that if a breeder felt it was too much of a risk to sell a female puppy to someone at the same price as a male (because they didn't trust the spay would get done) maybe once they received the proof of spay from the vet, the breeder could refund the extra amount they charged for the females over the males in the litter to begin with... That way, someone wouldn't suffer gender discrimination for prefering spayed females over neutered males - neither of which can sabatoge the breeders lines... just thinking out loud...

Sorry - I just didn't understand your response to my post...

Oh, and happy Thanksgiving!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I guess I don't understand what you're saying (or maybe you didn't understand what *I* was saying...
> 
> What people are just beginning?? The breeder or the buyer? Who's naive and green? The breeder or the buyer?
> 
> ...


 I am so glad that you found your perfect puppy and are happy ! Just because a breeder has opinions does not make then unethical . Sometimes breeders do things because at the time it seems like the "Right" Thing to do..
You too Barb the best to you and your family  Happy thanksgiving


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## artsycourtneysue (Jul 21, 2009)

Agreed 100% Kpoos!! I think that no matter what (and especially if they are so set on price that they are really viewing this as a business) there is no excuse for answering with such rudeness. Your email was very complimentary and her response was awful.



KPoos said:


> Okay I posted same time as you and I DO completely understand it and I don't think it's out of line as long as you're showing and actually doing the health testing. If you aren't or are just saying you are or are "cleared by parentage" then I have other opinions on that. I still don't think you should be RUDE to someone because they don't want to pay your price. I certainly wasn't rude to her first so she had no reason to be rude back to me.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

artsycourtneysue said:


> Agreed 100% Kpoos!! I think that no matter what (and especially if they are so set on price that they are really viewing this as a business) there is no excuse for answering with such rudeness. Your email was very complimentary and her response was awful.


Yes I think this was the original point. :doh:

Kpoos: I would personally save my money and WAIT until you meet the best breeder possible, or get on a waiting list for the breeder who is doing thing's the right way. My max in my mind was never over 1500.00 and I dislike throwing that out there BUT I would give that again for a Spoo that the breeder met my requirements and Hope that I met theirs - thats a good feeling when you can walk away from speaking with someone that makes you feel good about your intentions and agree with what YOU want. I am fortunate to have found the person I have and the situation and I can tell this is not a MONEY thing AT ALL. 

I hope you find the right one soon.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Thanks, I'm sure I will one day.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> I am so glad that you found your perfect puppy and are happy ! Just because a breeder has opinions does not make then unethical . Sometimes breeders do things because at the time it seems like the "Right" Thing to do..
> You too Barb the best to you and your family  Happy thanksgiving


Thanks for your viewpoint, bigredpoodle! I'm not sure if somehow my original question inferred that I felt a breeder who charged differently for gender or color was unethical - but I did not mean for it to sound that way - I was genuinely curious as to why some do this and some don't and if it was an accepted practice industry wide. 

I totally agree with your observation that "Just because a breeder has opinions does not make then unethical . Sometimes breeders do things because at the time it seems like the "Right" Thing to do.." Since every breeder is an individual and has their own life experiences to draw upon, not each one will do the same thing in the same way and it in NO WAY makes them unethical!

The only breeders that I would have a personal beef with are people who are not keeping the interests of each individual breeding dog and puppy at the forefront and most important spot in their program. People whose own agenda and interests come before their dogs - those are the ones I'd have a problem with...

My eyes are crossing, I'm so sleepy (that darn Tryptophan in the turkey!) and I have to work tomorrow (unlike 3/4ths of the entire STATE!!) Hope you had a great day!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I did we had friends over and family ans we laughed and talked for hours we had the best time . We are so thankful for each other  Thanks for asking my friend


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Kpoos,

I am so sorry you had such an unfortunate experience with this breeder, she has no class! My mom always said that it's not what you say, but how you say it. She could have found a better way to convey that she is sticking to her price without having to put you down. 

Both of my spoos were rescue/private adoption so I don't even know what hubby donated to bring Brandy (my red standard) home and my male cost me only $100 to save him from stupid people, but that's a whole other thread. My next spoo, whenever that happens and that's not for a long, long time, will come from a great breeder and I am prepared to pay the top dollar for the right poodle. I understand how mcuh work it is to show, health test and then breed a good litter. What I won't do is buy from those other breeders that ride on the coat tails of great breeders and charge the same or almost the same for dogs without titles and health testing.  

If the founds wouldn't be readily available, I will do what I've always done in order to get exactly what I want, SAVE. My motto is: "Never trade what you want at the moment, for what you really want".

When I was sixteen, I went to a cat show with a friend and fell in love with the Persians cat. I talked to breeders, got their cards and set out to convince my parents to get a cat. They agreed, as long as I would contribute to the price. If I got half they would match half. While the Persians were not as expensive as puppies, I could only work part time after school and on weekends and the pay wasn't great. It took me six months of saving all my money and their matching contribution to get money for the kitten, then another 3 months for the kitty to be read to come home. But boy was I happy to have the exact kitten I wanted.


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## Honeytown (Oct 23, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Well, and that's the thing. People say that they test and then there's nothing listed on OFA and they don't do all of the recommended testing but they don't offer lifetime health gurantees on their puppies after incomplete testing. I have a hard time trusting at this point because this is over and over and over.
> 
> And it's not that I don't HAVE that $1400 to spend it's that I don't want to spend it. If I found someone that I really trusted and just really adored what they were breeding I'd spend it but I have YET to come across anyone like that.


I understand your feelings completely. The response of this breeder would have sent me elesewhere very quickly--not because of the price but because of the way they expressed themselves. Health testing, good puppy rearing practices AND someone you feel good about buying from all are worth the wait. Hope the perfect breeder comes along for you soon! 

Susan


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> I charge $1500 for my puppies. With the next litter I think I will charge $1800. Why? Because I can. People want my puppies and they are willing to pay that much for them. With the last litter I had a waitlist for my waitlist.
> 
> I have three teens. All of them will be in college at the same time starting in 2 years. My dog hobby has to pay for itself or I would not be able to do it.
> 
> ...


But your dogs have titles and are health test completely


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

:dito:


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> :dito:


IA, the breeder that sent such a rude response seems to be basing her prices on temperment tests, not health tests or titles. Of course that's her right, but she could've been decent in her reply.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> IA, the breeder that sent such a rude response seems to be basing her prices on temperment tests, not health tests or titles. Of course that's her right, but she could've been decent in her reply.


I'm not 100% certain but it also sounded to me as if cafe au lait was some rare commodity in poodles and I should just snap one up if the opportunity arose. Not to mention the 3 or 4 times she mentioned that his sire was a "top producer." I guess by all means you must have earned the right to be down right rude to a person.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

"top producer" could also mean that he was bred a lot. Not that I'm saying thats what it definitly means, I'm just stating the obvious as I see it. He may very well be a super stud of some sort..
The more puppies you have though the better your chances are of getting something great. We have a breeder in my breed who just cranks out the puppies, she almost always has a litter or two on the ground or one or two on the way, or she just bred so in so to this stud... you get the idea. Easy to see why she's got some winners every year at nationals. When you breed 40 or 50 pups a year and you have halfway decent breeding stock it's a no brainer, you've got a better than average chance there. Where as the breeder who has maybe one litter a year and only got three puppies may only have one dog entered in the show. Statisticly their chances of winning go waaay down. It also no surprise that she and her little circle of friends also have a couple of stud dogs that have been named "top producers". More puppies born = more puppies avialble to be shown = more titles achieved, especialy when you have a ton of sub standard show puppies to stack the deck with so to speak and build majors. Easy thing to do in tibbies I'm afraid.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

WonderPup said:


> "top producer" could also mean that he was bred a lot. Not that I'm saying thats what it definitly means, I'm just stating the obvious as I see it. He may very well be a super stud of some sort..
> The more puppies you have though the better your chances are of getting something great. We have a breeder in my breed who just cranks out the puppies, she almost always has a litter or two on the ground or one or two on the way, or she just bred so in so to this stud... you get the idea. Easy to see why she's got some winners every year at nationals. When you breed 40 or 50 pups a year and you have halfway decent breeding stock it's a no brainer, you've got a better than average chance there. Where as the breeder who has maybe one litter a year and only got three puppies may only have one dog entered in the show. Statisticly their chances of winning go waaay down. It also no surprise that she and her little circle of friends also have a couple of stud dogs that have been named "top producers". More puppies born = more puppies avialble to be shown = more titles achieved, especialy when you have a ton of sub standard show puppies to stack the deck with so to speak and build majors. Easy thing to do in tibbies I'm afraid.


I could not agree more!!! One of the breeders who has been brought up several times on many threads has AT LEAST a litter a month. They likely average between 80 and 100 pups a year. Now they have a page on their web site called "Titled dogs". It doesn't impress me, for the same reasons you mention. If you produce ninety pups a year, the odds are certainly in yur favour to produce something decent, unless your breeding dogs are just bloody awful. Not many of these listed dogs have conformation titles, but a few do. Well, onme should thrink so when you have that many to pick from AND you pay a handler to show them!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I've been told by at least 3 people that they have the number 1 minis in the country. I'm not messing around three different people have said that. I always just nod and say "wow that's great." People sure like to toot their own horns a lot when it comes to dogs and what they've done.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I've been told by at least 3 people that they have the number 1 minis in the country. I'm not messing around three different people have said that. I always just nod and say "wow that's great." People sure like to toot their own horns a lot when it comes to dogs and what they've done.


I'll say it again... Ann was a putz! I'm sorry she treated you so badly.

The current top Mini in the country is a Silver bitch being shown by Jennifer Dege. This may or may not be a Nipigon poodle, I don't know. She recently took 1st place over from the Silver Beige dog CH Alegria Shamus shown by Laurel Berg. I think it is funny that the top two Minis are both Silver! What a change from years past.

Top producer means that a certain number of your offspring have finished. For bitches I think it is three and for dogs five? (Don't quote me on that.) I always like to see this because it means that the Poodles are producing well. Some dogs never finish but still go on to become top producers. Some dogs are champion flyers in the ring, but they never reproduce themselves.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I'll say it again... Ann was a putz! I'm sorry she treated you so badly.
> 
> The current top Mini in the country is a Silver bitch being shown by Jennifer Dege. This may or may not be a Nipigon poodle, I don't know. She recently took 1st place over from the Silver Beige dog CH Alegria Shamus shown by Laurel Berg. I think it is funny that the top two Minis are both Silver! What a change from years past.
> 
> Top producer means that a certain number of your offspring have finished. For bitches I think it is three and for dogs five? (Don't quote me on that.) I always like to see this because it means that the Poodles are producing well. Some dogs never finish but still go on to become top producers. Some dogs are champion flyers in the ring, but they never reproduce themselves.


I don't know if that's a selling point for a person wanting a pet but whatever a person feels proud of I guess?hwell:


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

KPoos and Cbrand, it was uncalled for and very mean spirited to say that Ann was a putz. There are two sides to every story. Ann has provided you every detail and has spent hours with you as well as I have. Ann has never treated you badly. I and Ann have offered advice for you to seek out the nearest poodle clubs and get their breeder referrals in the local area you are in, that way you could meet the parents of the dogs and see the facilities and see siblings and pick out your puppy. So Your fears and reservations about the puppies and everything else are resolved.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

thestars said:


> KPoos and Cbrand, it was uncalled for and very mean spirited to say that Ann was a putz. There are two sides to every story. Ann has provided you every detail and has spent hours with you as well as I have. Ann has never treated you badly. I and Ann have offered advice for you to seek out the nearest poodle clubs and get their breeder referrals in the local area you are in, that way you could meet the parents of the dogs and see the facilities and see siblings and pick out your puppy. So Your fears and reservations about the puppies and everything else are resolved.


First of all NO ONE was even talking about the person you are referring to and I cannot be blamed for something that someone else says.:fish:


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Everything we say is a responsibility we own, even in what we consider are private messages.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

thestars said:


> Everything we say is a responsibility we own, even in what we consider are private messages.


What are you even talking about? I'm almost positive that cbrand isn't even referring to the person in question. So you are getting all hyped up and hyping up someone else over NOTHING.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

I am not hyped up, I just do not want to see people flaming others on the forum.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

thestars said:


> I am not hyped up, I just do not want to see people flaming others on the forum.


I don't think you saw me flaming that person at all because I DIDN'T. You seem like you like to get involved in things you know nothing about because you see part of the story and start assuming well it must be this way because I see this and then trouble starts because you are making a big deal where there isn't one. If you are truly just looking out for someone you would make sure that your information was correct before passing it along to someone else. Shame on you for trying to get me in trouble with this person when there was nothing like that going on behind the scenes!


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

I am not assuming anything, and you are being ugly. I will not respond to this.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

thestars said:


> I am not assuming anything, and you are being ugly. I will not respond to this.


Of course you won't because that is what you are doing. I saw it before on here with another breeder. :doh:


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

thestars said:


> KPoos and Cbrand, it was uncalled for and very mean spirited to say that Ann was a putz.


I apologize for using slang and calling her a putz. I will stand by my assertion, however, that she was rude and condescending. All she needed to say was, "I'm so sorry, my price is firm."


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Well - original definition for Putz is :

_
Origin: 
1900–05; < Yiddish puts lit., ornament, finery, prob. n. deriv. of putsn to clean, shine; cf. early mod. G butzen to decorate (G putzen to clean, brighten)
_

So, maybe you meant that LMAO

Now - I do not know even where to start , or should I start - it looks that lately only certain clique has a "permission" to express their opinion and that only their point of view is "correct" and everybody else are just living in the "world of fantasy" and have NO idea what they are talking about :twitch:

I do not know who the "Anne -breeder" is NOR I ever want to know - she might as well be named "Asnshjfkjrhbnjcxnvhegj" - SHE WAS RUDE - period !!!

Now, why one can not be called up to be accountable for their actions is beyond me ??? !!!

*What - now we have to put up with non-tested, non- championed dogs and their iffy offspring and be insulted on the way and keep quiet about that and pay premium price for that crap LAMO !!!! *Last time I checked this was a free country with a freedom of speech - if I missed the change of the constitution please let me know ASAP - since I left one Commy country and do not want to end in another one :wacko: 

NOW THAT IS PREPOSTEROUS !!!!!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

wishpoo said:


> now, why one can not be called up to be accountable for their actions is beyond me ??? !!!
> 
> *what - now we have to put up with non-tested, non- championed dogs and their iffy offspring and be insulted on the way and keep quiet about that and pay premium price for that crap lamo !!!! *last time i checked this was a free country with a freedom of speech - if i missed the change of the constitution please let me know asap - since i left one commy country and do not want to end in another one :wacko:
> 
> Now that is preposterous !!!!!


*ditto!!!*


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I apologize for using slang and calling her a putz. I will stand by my assertion, however, that she was rude and condescending. All she needed to say was, "I'm so sorry, my price is firm."



Alright, part of this is my bad. 

I knew privately that Kpoos was speaking to a breeder named Ann, who Stars knows. When I saw Kpoo's original post in this thread I jumped to the conclusion that the email had come from Ann. To clear things up, though most of you don't know even know who Ann is, the email did not come from her. 

I'm glad to know because I thought and still think that the email about just going to the shelter was offensive.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Alright, part of this is my bad.
> 
> I knew privately that Kpoos was speaking to a breeder named Ann, who Stars knows. When I saw Kpoo's original post in this thread I jumped to the conclusion that the email had come from Ann. To clear things up, though most of you don't know even know who Ann is, the email did not come from her.
> 
> I'm glad to know because I thought and still think that the email about just going to the shelter was offensive.


Thanks for posting this clarification here. I mean it's possible that people just make mistakes and really aren't out to get someone.hwell:


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Obviously there's just too many people named Ann or Anne here... 

The big lesson I take from this thread is an age old one. Be nice to your customers, because while a happy customer might only mention it to 1 or 2 people, an unhappy customer will probably mention it to 10 or more!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

I dont think its a good reason at all to go to a BYB, ppl go there cause they want to. If the first person lets you down, go to the next person. Yes she is rude the way she replied, but there are other breeders, understanding breeders, and some even let you pay them off.

$1,000.00 is alot of money, but as I explain to my customers I pay a fortune to get the type of dogs I have today, the tests we do to ensure that you wont have the genetic health problems is quite costly, and just like cars and houses, everything goes up in price. Most understand this. Yes it still can be hard to afford a dog, but this is meant to be for a lifetime, so in the end you consider the dog you bought cheap.

I give guarantees on my dogs on anything genetic that crops up unexpectedly they get a replacement pup or their money back.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

You do the right things and I'm sure if someone starts asking a lot of questions about those things you don't hesitate to answer them in full and provide proof of health testing. I'm NOT going to a byb but sometimes you just get mad at the generalization.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

Yes everyone that gets a pup off me gets a photocopy of the testings done here. The best way as I said is ring around, and you will find someone that you are happy with. Some breeders arent worth it, and even if their dogs are nice, they should treat ppl a little better and explain why their costs are higher.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Just thought I'd add my views on this topic.

First off, I agree 100%, that breeder's email remark was off base. Rudeness is not necessary in business, even if the person wanting to purchase was rude (which WAS NOT the case here!), the breeder/seller should have just dropped a simple "thank you but I believe I don't have what you are looking for, good luck" and leave it at that. No need for rude remarks! In my opinion that breeder has an attitude not necessary in dealing with potential clients. Maybe she was having a ‘bad day’ but that is still not right.

On the topics here of cost, what is charged, why it is charged, testing vs. non-testing, profit vs. no profit, etc., here are my thoughts. And they are just that.. MY personal thoughts.

Not all people who breed a specific breed (in this case.. poodles) and show them and sell pups are independently wealthy. In fact, that is very seldom the case. Yes, the person that is doing this because they love the breed, love to show (in whatever field... breed, obedience, agility, hunt), and want to produce and continue their line is not specifically a "rich" person. If it were just left up to only the rich to breed, raise and show all purebred dogs, you can bet we would have much, much fewer pups available out there, and thus, the prices would be VERY HIGH as that is dictated by supply and demand. So, in realizing that not everyone can do this at a loss, then the aim has to be to hopefully to break even. I will say that I would love to be able to break even, I don't hold my breath on it, but it would be good. 

The old adage "you get what you pay for" applies in all things. I have seen prices of standard poodles ranging from $300 up to $2500. Obviously this is due to many issues. I have seen poor quality pups that were for sale for $1200 from people who did no testing and were obvious BYB's, yet they think that they can rake it in because the average price is up in the $1000 range, but mainly you see the $300 - $500 range from people who have no idea about what they are breeding, don't do tests and are just wanting a litter of pups to sell. I am not referring to puppy mills here, that is a whole other issue, I am talking about the average BYB. 

Any pups that I have seen for sale from breeders who do the testing, who work/show their dogs in SOME aspic to prove that their dogs are mentally and physically proper have never been priced below $1000 and more likely $1200 and above. It costs to do these things and if the person who is buying wants these things done on the parents of the pup they buy, then they should be willing to pay the money asked. No breeder who is doing all this with their dogs is out pushing their pups on anyone. Most of these breeders have waiting lists to buy their pups. I really believe that if a person invests money into the dogs they are breeding, not to mention the time, then they have the right to ask a price that reflects that attention to the breed. The buyer has just as much right to shop around and find the dog that fits the price range they are looking for and the qualities they want. The buyer does not have to buy the higher priced pup and the seller has the right to ask what they feel their pups are worth and what their purchasers are willing to pay for their line.

I do not think it is fair or right for the breeder who is doing proper by the breed to be bashed for what they want to charge, it is their dogs, their breedings and their right. To think that any breeder of any breed should be willing to sell their pups at a loss because it was their choice to do the breeding, to me, is not right. Yes, this is called a hobby, but it is not a hobby like stamp collecting, or art collecting…. And I can guarantee you that those stamp collector and art collectors are also thinking of what the stamps will be worth that they are buying and thinking if they could make a profit if they have to sell their collection at some point. A hobby is something you do that is NOT a main money collector for your life, it does not mean that it is not something you wouldn’t want to break even on or make some small profit on. If the market could/would not hold their price, then they would be stuck with all their pups and thus their prices would go down. If the market bears their price and they are able to find loving homes for their litter, then they have the right to make their own prices. To criticize someone for the price they are asking, for the fact that they want to charge more for a female than a male, for the fact that they want more for a certain color, is non productive in my opinion. They have that right, and if people like their lines and want to pay it, then it is their right to do so. I, personally, would want more for a puppy that was of exceptional quality.. or at least want to try hard to place said puppy into a show home… then to sell that puppy for less to a pet home. I am not saying I would sell a puppy to a show home over a “good” home, for it would have to be both, as a loving home is most important to me, but a lot of time, heartache and effort goes into these breedings and if you get a very promising pup, you sure want it to go out to a home where it will be shown as improving or at least keeping up the quality of the breed is the foremost thing a breeder should be thinking of. Temperament is the top of my list in this venue. All the great body form is a waist if the temperament is bred out. But body form is an absolute must for the health and well being of a well tempered dog.

About comparing the price of poodles to another breed that is shown, has testing done, etc., to me is really not fairly comparable. Not all breeds take the same amount of money to feed, to groom, to show to a CH., to vet care. Some breeds are small and eat much less, some huge and eat a ton; some have short, easy to care for coats, others take hours of grooming and more money spent in grooming supplies; some have lots of genetic problems that need to be addressed in tests, others have much less; some are small and easy to take many to a show, others take a larger vehicle; some are easier to finish as a owner/breeder/handler, others really need some professional handling to get those majors; some are popular breeds with lots around to choose from, others are rare breeds with very few breeders out there. It is not apples to apples. When comparing, it is best to compare Golden to Golden, Lab to Lab, Shepherd to Shepherd, Poodle to Poodle. 

The bottom line of thought for me is… go out and shop around, find the breeder that best fits what you are looking for, in the price range you are looking for and make sure they are ethical. If you are happy with the puppies, if you are happy with the breeder, if in the end you love your special friend you chose, then you are going to be happy. If the breeder you are looking into has what you want but is out of your price range, then move on, no reason to bash said breeder, unless they are doing something unethical or abusive. Look at it this way.. all cars take you from point A to point B.. all need some sort of “fuel” source, all need a battery and seats and windshield wipers and tires. All are NOT priced the same, even if they look similar. Some have extra this or that’s, some have BRAND NAME behind them, some have a reputation of quality and longevity. We all go out and find what suites us and in our price range and we purchase it. Same with the dogs…. If you want the extras, you need to realize that you have to pay for that option. If you want the reputation behind a line for its quality and/or longevity, then you have to pay for that option. Breeders are not there to ‘dump’ their “leftovers” from breeding a litter to possibly keep one for themselves off onto the waiting public. If done with the love of the dog and its breed in mind, it is a labor of love and time, and should be compensated at such. And the breeder should be just as wanting their pups to find loving homes, but have every right to ask what they feel they are worth to them. If they want more for a particular color but you do not feel it fair, then move on to another breeder. That is your right as well as it is their right to ask it. If you don’t want to pay more for a female that has to be neutered (and I 100% agree with you on this!) then move on to the next breeder, they still have the right to ask what they feel for the reasons they feel it. 

continued on next post


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Everyone has a right to their opinions, just as I am stating mine here. But I don’t think that anyone’s rights go to the point of personally bashing other people’s opinions. Verbal bashing is non productive. Stating facts, reasons or possible reasons for things; stating your thoughts on how you feel about the issues, fine, but tearing into someone for having a different view of things or different idea of how things should/can be done, just makes people angry. 

To me, what is not right and should be bashed is the person who does NOT take care of their breeding dogs (OR their pets!), does not care about them at all except for the pups they put on the ground to be sold. The person who leaves their animals in filth and underfed, does nothing with their dogs, and uses them for practically 100% profit like they were non living things!!!!! But a person who is doing right by their dogs, is taking proper care and is offering good pets to the public, has every right to their own ideas on how to go about it. There is no “one way” for anything and everyone’s personal circumstances dictate a lot to how they perceive what is the “right” way and what is the “right” price. If you don’t like the price, if you don’t like the breeder, if you don’t like stipulations put onto the sale, then walk away and keep looking. Neither buyer NOR seller should be rude or inconsiderate to differences of opinions/thoughts if no one is being hurt by the whole thing.

I agree that this particular breeder does not have any costumer relations ability. But she also has the right to ask her prices for whatever reason she feels. I am sorry she was so rude to you, I think you need to move on and find a breeder that you can work with and has better costumer relations sense. Good luck!

Sorry about being long winded. Just thought I’d say my 2 cents worth on this.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

jester's mom said:


> Sorry about being long winded. Just thought I’d say my 2 cents worth on this.


Wow!! That was more like 2 DOLLARS!!  And very, very eloquently said!! Thanks jester's mom!!!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I hope you all understand that I don't think ALL breeders are like her and that I really could care less today what she said to me the other day. I posted this because I really think it benefits many to see how others are treated. Bad day or not, someone treating someone like that in a retail setting would be written up or fired. You don't treat people like that no matter what or if you aren't in the mood you just don't respond to the email period. You can just DUMP the email and never reply.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> I hope you all understand that I don't think ALL breeders are like her and that I really could care less today what she said to me the other day. I posted this because I really think it benefits many to see how others are treated. Bad day or not, someone treating someone like that in a retail setting would be written up or fired. You don't treat people like that no matter what or if you aren't in the mood you just don't respond to the email period. You can just DUMP the email and never reply.


Really,,, you totally offended me,,, and attacked me and I do not even know you. And never will....But I am fair game because "I breed " Right?
Sorry I DO NOT understand never will !


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree Kpoos
you asked a simple question any good breeder/business woman would have been like...well we're pretty firm and then GENTLY tried pushing you towards a better option 

its terrible that this woman doesn't realize thats how she came off, quite rude


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> Really,,, you totally offended me,,, and attacked me and I do not even know you. And never will....But I am fair game because "I breed " Right?
> Sorry I DO NOT understand never will !


OH please you started it first and I'm not getting into it with you. You started with your high and mighty morals about breeding when you aren't following the standards that are there to improve the breed yet you are trying to educate me on why you charge what you do for your puppies. Breeding a 14 month old male isn't a person I want to take advice from sorry.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

KPoos said:


> OH please you started it first and I'm not getting into it with you. You started with your high and mighty morals about breeding when you aren't following the standards that are there to improve the breed yet you are trying to educate me on why you charge what you do for your puppies. Breeding a 14 month old male isn't a person I want to take advice from sorry.


Okay you got it  If you knew anything you would know that accidents do happen....Thank god he was fully genetically tested when it happened ....Good luck to you and your quest,


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

:tape2:

:yield:


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