# Health Guarantees



## Anomoley (Dec 25, 2012)

Wasn't sure where I should post this but figured the health section would make sense. 

How much value do you personally put into breeder's health guarantees? What, in your opinion, should they cover? 

Would you say NO to a puppy from a breeder that does not provide a guarantee at all? What if this was a breeder that is highly recommended by other respected breeders and has a proven track record of health testing, along with no known cases of health issues in his/her breeding? 

I would love any feedback and thoughts on this topic, from anyone who'd like to comment as a puppy owner, a potential puppy buyer, or a breeder.


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

There are a couple of threads that discuss this if you search the forum. Here's a recent one: Health guarantees


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I don't think I would buy from a breeder who didn't offer a decent guarantee. Problem is that most contracts require the dog be given back to the breeder and most of us know that once our heart is attached that isn't going to happen....


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> I don't think I would buy from a breeder who didn't offer a decent guarantee. Problem is that most contracts require the dog be given back to the breeder and most of us know that once our heart is attached that isn't going to happen....



A guarantee is nice, but I agree that in reality they are not worth much as most do require that the puppy be given back. And even if the don't and will give you your money back, the cost of most guaranteed problems would far exceed the purchase price of the puppy. I know a woman on Facebook that got all of her purchase money back after the puppy had a 3 thousand dollar emergency vet bill as soon as it came home. So she got $1,500 back - that was only half the bill, and now, in addition to a heart defect the puppy needs bilateral hip replacements because of perthes, and needs both knees fixed because of luxating patellas - a healthy puppy would have been much better than a guaranteed puppy with all of these problems.
All I look for is a breeder who does the appropriate health testing and responsibly removes any dog from her breeding program that turns up with an untestable but probably inherited health problem. After that my Petplan policy I'd the best health guarantee that I could ever hope for! My breeder does guarantee, but I can't see any circumstances under which I would invoke it.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I actually wouldn't necessarily absolutely require one for my own puppy purchase, because the circumstance presumes I'd have sufficiently researched the breeder, the lines, and the circumstances to a point that the breeder might likely consider it implicit in our agreement. Of course, things can go wrong, terribly wrong, and my research could be proven wholly insufficient. And one can also easily imagine a wonderful breeder not offering a guarantee up front, but jumping in to help with a puppy encountering unexpected health problems.

So I dunno. I see N2Mischief's point and at the same time see TinyPoodle's point. TP has a close relationship, wonderfully well-bred Tpoo, and very frequent communication with her breeder who has proven dogs, so I think I understand her approach and believe she is fully justified. N2Mischief has a wonderfully well-bred Tpoo from known breeders, so I hear her as well.

Long and short. Seems to kind of depend . An experienced Poodle buyer buying in the same variety may need less in terms of health guarantee, while a first time buyer in the breed and most especially a first time buyer altogether might do well to look for a guarantee since new to dogs. None of this paragraph should read as a reflection of any member I previously mentioned; it's intended to stand on its own.

My Tpoo came via a secondary 'market', not via the breeder, so I may well have made different choices had I waited as long as first intended (so happy I didn't ). But my last dog, not a Poodle, came from an exceptonal and wonderful breeder, and I don't think we ever even discussed any sort of guarantee. And yet, I know she'd have been there for us. But my girl was super healthy.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> I don't think I would buy from a breeder who didn't offer a decent guarantee. Problem is that most contracts require the dog be given back to the breeder and most of us know that once our heart is attached that isn't going to happen....



The lady I got Kaydee from was a Hobby Breeder. She did genetic health testing on her dogs, which I was very impressed by, but she would only give a 1 year health guarantee. She did state in the contract, that if there were any problems, she would pay half, and I would still be able to keep the dog. At the time ( that was in the year 2000), I thought that was pretty good. 

There were never any problems.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think a lot of health guarantees are a marketing ploy, used by dealers and puppy mills to give buyers a false sense of security. Any guarantee that requires the puppy to be returned (usually at the buyer's expense) is unlikely to be called in; others have innumerable exclusions in the small print, or conditions so draconian that they are more loop hole than fabric. I am sure there are worthwhile guarantees, but I would never rely on them to replace thorough research and knowing I could trust the breeder. In the UK practically all well-bred puppies come with free insurance for the first few weeks, and sensible owners continue the insurance for at least the next year or two.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Streetcar said:


> I actually wouldn't necessarily absolutely require one for my own puppy purchase, because the circumstance presumes I'd have sufficiently researched the breeder, the lines, and the circumstances to a point that the breeder might likely consider it implicit in our agreement. Of course, things can go wrong, terribly wrong, and my research could be proven wholly insufficient. And one can also easily imagine a wonderful breeder not offering a guarantee up front, but jumping in to help with a puppy encountering unexpected health problems.
> 
> So I dunno. I see N2Mischief's point and at the same time see TinyPoodle's point. TP has a close relationship, wonderfully well-bred Tpoo, and very frequent communication with her breeder who has proven dogs, so I think I understand her approach and believe she is fully justified. N2Mischief has a wonderfully well-bred Tpoo from known breeders, so I hear her as well.
> 
> ...



I guess that a good guarantee, a breeder who is willing to "put their money where their mouth is" inspires confidence, and that is a good thing for the first time that you are dealing with a breeder. You are correct, I do have a lot of confidence in my breeder, but I would like to think that even if I was looking for a new breeder (new to me), that at this point I am savvy enough on the subject to discern the even more confidence inspiring traits...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

fjm said:


> I think a lot of health guarantees are a marketing ploy, used by dealers and puppy mills to give buyers a false sense of security. Any guarantee that requires the puppy to be returned (usually at the buyer's expense) is unlikely to be called in; others have innumerable exclusions in the small print, or conditions so draconian that they are more loop hole than fabric. I am sure there are worthwhile guarantees, but I would never rely on them to replace thorough research and knowing I could trust the breeder. In the UK practically all well-bred puppies come with free insurance for the first few weeks, and sensible owners continue the insurance for at least the next year or two.



That is a great concept having all new well bred puppies go home with insurance! In the US it seems like the only ones that insurance companies have partnered with in this way are rescues, not purebred breeders - I wonder why they don't do as in the UK!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Anomoley said:


> Wasn't sure where I should post this but figured the health section would make sense.
> 
> How much value do you personally put into breeder's health guarantees? What, in your opinion, should they cover?
> 
> ...


I would say no to a puppy from a breeder that does not provide a guarantee at all. A guarantee shows that a breeder takes responsibility for what they produce. And unless the breeder has only bred a couple of litters, I'd be walking the other direction at "no known cases of health issues." Either their head is in the sand or they haven't bred enough litters to see anything.


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## service_spoo (Mar 14, 2015)

One of the things that attracted me to my breeder is that she offers a 4 year health guarantee. But what really sealed the deal is that her puppy buyers have never had to use it in all the years she's been breeding- not because there were hoops to jump through, but because her puppies have been so healthy. I would definitely ask prospective breeders if they've ever fulfilled their health guarantee and what health issue(s) it was for.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

service_spoo said:


> One of the things that attracted me to my breeder is that she offers a 4 year health guarantee. But what really sealed the deal is that her puppy buyers have never had to use it in all the years she's been breeding- not because there were hoops to jump through, but because her puppies have been so healthy. I would definitely ask prospective breeders if they've ever fulfilled their health guarantee and what health issue(s) it was for.


Good breeder, lucky breeder? maybe both. I would go to her on your recommendation anyway!
Eric


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

I really don't care about a health guarantee. Think about it "health guaratee", what is that? I certainly am not giving up my puppy because something is wrong with it, any more than I would get rid of one of my kids. I have had shelter dogs and dogs from excellent breeders. I make a commitment when I bring a pet into my home.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

I prefer a health guarantee from a breeder, but more importantly I prefer a breeder that will stand behind their dogs no matter what age. 
Draco has a health guarantee, but more importantly she has told me that if anything does ever come up to talk to her about it and we will decide together what the response should be (giving the dog back is never an option in either of our minds).


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I wanted it all. A health guarantee and every PCA health test. Not for the guarantee as much as for a hedge that the puppy will live a normal span without this or that medical issue. I was fresh off of the heartbreak of losing a beloved dog and it seemed important that the breeder was willing to stand behind her puppy's health. 

Doesn't anyone think the breeder would prefer to let you keep the dog with this or that and the expenses thereof and still make good on the promise of another puppy?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> I wanted it all. A health guarantee and every PCA health test. Not for the guarantee as much as for a hedge that the puppy will live a normal span without this or that medical issue. I was fresh off of the heartbreak of losing a beloved dog and it seemed important that the breeder was willing to stand behind her puppy's health.
> 
> Doesn't anyone think the breeder would prefer to let you keep the dog with this or that and the expenses thereof and still make good on the promise of another puppy?



Well there it is going to depend upon the ethics of the breeder - some will use that "you must return the dog" clause to wiggle out of upholding their end of it, and some really care about the best thing for the dog, and "making up for the problem" to the client as best they can. This is where speaking to as many previous clients as you can comes in handy - doing so, you may be able to get an idea of what the breeders true character and ethics are.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Mfmst said:


> I wanted it all. A health guarantee and every PCA health test. Not for the guarantee as much as for a hedge that the puppy will live a normal span without this or that medical issue. I was fresh off of the heartbreak of losing a beloved dog and it seemed important that the breeder was willing to stand behind her puppy's health.
> 
> Doesn't anyone think the breeder would prefer to let you keep the dog with this or that and the expenses thereof and still make good on the promise of another puppy?


Right!!!!!!!!!!!! Most breeders that I know do not require a puppy to be returned!


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> That is a great concept having all new well bred puppies go home with insurance! In the US it seems like the only ones that insurance companies have partnered with in this way are rescues, not purebred breeders - I wonder why they don't do as in the UK!


When we got our puppy and his AKC registration, the AKC gives you a free month of health insurance.. but of course to start that right away you need to send the paperwork in (and wait the 2 week period for coverage to start)



Tiny Poodles said:


> A guarantee is nice, but I agree that in reality they are not worth much as most do require that the puppy be given back. And even if the don't and will give you your money back, the cost of most guaranteed problems would far exceed the purchase price of the puppy. *I know a woman on Facebook that got all of her purchase money back after the puppy had a 3 thousand dollar emergency vet bill as soon as it came home. So she got $1,500 back - that was only half the bill, and now, in addition to a heart defect the puppy needs bilateral hip replacements because of perthes, and needs both knees fixed because of luxating patellas* - a healthy puppy would have been much better than a guaranteed puppy with all of these problems.
> All I look for is a breeder who does the appropriate health testing and responsibly removes any dog from her breeding program that turns up with an untestable but probably inherited health problem. After that my Petplan policy I'd the best health guarantee that I could ever hope for! My breeder does guarantee, but I can't see any circumstances under which I would invoke it.


THIS. 5 days after bringing Oliver home, it was clear he was very sick. We did our research on breeders and thought we had a good one (spoiler alert: we didn't). We called her to tell her what was going on and the tests they were recommending (vet thought liver shunt and wanted to do tests to confirm) and she said "He's your dog now, not my problem", even though her 1-year health guarantee should have covered major issues such as this. It would seem that we would have had to spend the $$ (over $1,500) for the tests, show her the confirmation, before she would honor her health guarantee or even work with us. But.. even exchanging Oliver for a new healthy puppy, we would still have been out the vet bills.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

TeamPoodle said:


> When we got our puppy and his AKC registration, the AKC gives you a free month of health insurance.. but of course to start that right away you need to send the paperwork in (and wait the 2 week period for coverage to start)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Too bad AKC insurance is not the best, but yup they all do have that two week wait inning period, none of them would be of help with a puppy that would arrive ill- that would always be on the breeder. And sadly, as you found out, you really cannot be sure of a breeder's true ethics until you have the unfortunate opportunity to test them...


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

West U said:


> I really don't care about a health guarantee. Think about it "health guaratee", what is that? I certainly am not giving up my puppy because something is wrong with it, any more than I would get rid of one of my kids. I have had shelter dogs and dogs from excellent breeders. I make a commitment when I bring a pet into my home.


Personally, I think the best health guarantee would be a 5 year guarantee, with the clause that the owner would also keep the dog. Because after all, no owner is going to give up their dog. My breeder gave me a 1 year guarantee, and also would pay for half of the vet bills. Nothing ever happened so that was good, but I still would have liked a longer guarantee.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I think I would go more for a breeder that is really invested in his/her dogs. Who cares what they legally promise to...those contracts are extremely hard to prove or enforce. I want a breeder who genuinely cares and is supportive over and above what they have committed to on paper. My dogs have never been sick a day in their lives but I would want a breeder who would be there for me, for the little things. Training, grooming, showing, agility....all those things. Someone who really loves their dogs will do that for their puppy owners.


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