# Getting a poodle



## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Hi everyone, 

I have been doing my research about poodles for months and can’t wait to get my new baby. However, my only issue is that I am moving to an apartment and a new state. How do you guys think the poodle will adjust or if the apartment life will work for us ?
Thank you


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hello and welcome!

What size poodle are you looking at?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My minipoo would be wonderful in an apartment. I think toy and standard poodles are also great choices especially if they have some exercise and training.

What size are you planning to get?


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Basil (Spoo) and I live in a 275 sq ft (mico) apt in West Seattle. Granted she's only 20 weeks old and 26-28# currently, but growing fast. She's happy being spoiled and soaking up any extra attention from strangers. The local pet store is about 20 yards away 😭 and we're on a first-name bases there. We still make time to go to hop in the car and visit the park 2-3x/week too. We're a very exercise focused family.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Liz said:


> Hello and welcome!
> 
> What size poodle are you looking at?


Thank you for you reply...I wasthinking of getting the standard size. What do you think?


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Skylar said:


> My minipoo would be wonderful in an apartment. I think toy and standard poodles are also great choices especially if they have some exercise and training.
> 
> What size are you planning to get?


Awww I love the minipoos too, but I am looking into the standard size.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> Basil (Spoo) and I live in a 275 sq ft (mico) apt in West Seattle. Granted she's only 20 weeks old and 26-28# currently, but growing fast. She's happy being spoiled and soaking up any extra attention from strangers. The local pet store is about 20 yards away 😭 and we're on a first-name bases there. We still make time to go to hop in the car and visit the park 2-3x/week too. We're a very exercise focused family.


Omg she does sound spoiled I love it..... I am moving to Texas and the apartments look huge. I saw one that had an open space for the living room and dining room. I was thinking of just making it a tv room and leave the rest of the space open. I will also have a crate I will use for when am going to work, but will stop using it once he is potty trained. I have so many ideas, I am looking into a doggy camp or get getting someone to walk him when I am at work. I really want a poodle but I don’t want my neighbors to hate me because of him barking a lot. I think the barking is what I am extremely worried about, but I need a dog because I will be living by myself for the first time.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We have some members who've navigated apartment life with a spoo. It's doable. They have a nice off-switch indoors if trained properly to settle at a young age. But you do need a solid exercise plan in place—ideally somewhere where your poodle can run safely off leash, especially through adolescence. Peggy's evening zoomies were a sanity saver for her AND us. She knew exactly what to do to drain her battery.

As for barking, Peggy's is much more ferocious-sounding but less persistent than my mini's was. I manage it by acknowledging her concern, stepping between her and whatever's triggered her (e.g get up and look out the window), and thanking her. She immediately stops. But......

She might continue sporadically "alerting" if she's restless or anxious or just plain bored. That can be a nuisance so, especially in an apartment, you'll need to get to the bottom of why it's happening. We can always help you with that. 

And something as simple as leaving a mellow TV channel on quietly in the background can help muffle outside noise. (Peggy loves Turner Classic Movies.) Keeping the curtains shut is also helpful so your poodle doesn't obsessively sit and wait for the next bit of outside activity to bark at. Spoos can have a high prey drive, so movement is very exciting to them.


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## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Hi, and welcome! I live in an apartment complex with my Standard Poodle, and we make it work. As long as she/he gets plenty of exercise both mentally and physically, and gets to run, you guys will be fine.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> We have some members who've navigated apartment life with a spoo. It's doable. They have a nice off-switch indoors if trained properly to settle at a young age. But you do need a solid exercise plan in place—ideally somewhere where your poodle can run safely off leash, especially through adolescence. Peggy's evening zoomies were a sanity saver for her AND us. She knew exactly what to do to drain her battery.
> 
> As for barking, Peggy's is much more ferocious-sounding but less persistent than my mini's was. I manage it by acknowledging her concern, stepping between her and whatever's triggered her (e.g get up and look out the window), and thanking her. She immediately stops. But......
> 
> ...


thank you so muchit would be horrible if we have neighbors that hate us lol.... I am very active but I guess these are sacrifices I need to make sure my baby won’t be barking all over the place lol. do you have a website where I can reach out to you? I need help to make sure that he is going to be comfortable and be stressed out. I actually was thinking about getting a loft or A townhouse to just have enough space for him.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Fenris-wolf said:


> Hi, and welcome! I live in an apartment complex with my Standard Poodle, and we make it work. As long as she/he gets plenty of exercise both mentally and physically, and gets to run, you guys will be fine.


I am not that active lol but it is something I am working on because I know poodles need to run around and exercise. Just don’t want to an unfit dog parent lol


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My minipoo rarely barks. I thought there was something wrong with her voice because people could ring our door bell and she didn’t bark.
I was watching dog agility on tv and she saw those very determined and aggressive looking dogs coming through the weave poles and she started barking. She only barks at aggressive dogs.

My minipoos I had as a child also didn’t bark, but the tpoo we had when my kids were little barked too much. I’m not sure what the difference is but hopefully you won’t get a barker.

Dogs don’t need to run off leash to get exercise, nor do they need to be walked for many miles. A mix of a good walk to potty and training makes a well rounded dog with a turn off switch so they make great couch potatoes. Training them to be good pets uses a lot of brain power, a dog using their brain is a dog that is a happy couch potato.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I got my spoo while living in an apartment. Its definitely doable, but, you end up having to be a way better owner and more careful trainer than most people in a house have to be. Offleash or long line running and play was ESSENTIAL to having a well behaved dog though. 

No matter how much i walked and trained her, if she hadnt had a chance to tear around offleash in a week, she was miserable to live with. Dog parks arent always a great solution, the one in the town i lived in was full of aggressive dogs. So i tried to take her somewhere to run off leash or dragging a long line one , preferably 2 times a week, plus three 10-30 min walks/day. And i tried to train her NOT to play in the evening, which was harder. I would do it again though.


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## Mr.Ziggy (Jul 14, 2020)

My 10 month old Spoo and I are in an apartment and it has worked out very well. Ziggy tends to be very chill inside. A few pieces of advice to consider :

1) Going with a breeder that has a history of therapy dogs will help you find one with a quieter temperament than a hunting line.

2) Like others have said, lots of exersize is key.

3) I have made sure to always be calm in the apartment and to not rile him up indoors. He now seems to mirror my emotions and knows that indoors in where we are calm. 

4) Mental stimulation is as, if not more important than physical exersize. If my guy is acting too excited, I'll do a training session with him or have him do "puppy push-ups" and then he will usually want to lay down and rest after. Poodles are smart and need lots of mental stimulation. I go with the approach that every meal has a purpose. Our meals are usually a full training session, feeding out of a maze bowl in a certain spot to desensitize him to sounds or locations (like in a crate, bathtub, next to a loud blow dryer), or out of a feeder ball. Feeder balls are amazing to get him worn out. After a long morning exersize session and breakfast out of a feeder ball, my guy will be chill for the rest of the day.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I agree with the consensus: It's possible but not easy, especially if you live alone. Poodles really don't like to be home alone all day, and they need lots of physical and mental stimulation. You may find that your non-work time is consumed with taking care of your dog.

You said that you're not active, but you're hoping a dog will help change that. I think it's wise to look into doggy daycare and a dog walker (if you don't WFH). What's your experience with dogs? What kinds have you or your family had in the past?


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## Jenna2020 (Jul 28, 2020)

I am getting a standard poodle soon and I also live in a condo. I also am not the most active person, I don't go jogging or anything and sometimes can be downright lazy. My plan is to head to off leash areas, we have some beaches and walking areas where dogs can go off leash. I also plan to ( when the dog is old enough), to hire a dog walker to do two long hikes a week, which is something I have no desire to do. I am hoping two long work out sessions like this will help keep everyone happy.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> thank you so muchit would be horrible if we have neighbors that hate us lol.... I am very active but I guess these are sacrifices I need to make sure my baby won’t be barking all over the place lol. do you have a website where I can reach out to you? I need help to make sure that he is going to be comfortable and be stressed out. I actually was thinking about getting a loft or A townhouse to just have enough space for him.


I just meant we at Poodle Forum can help you out. Post questions any time! We'll be here for you.  I'm not sure how I'd have navigated Peggy's first year without our knowledgable (and kind!) members. 

As for getting more space, I didn't (and still don't) allow Peggy to run wild inside. And she doesn't take up a lot of room. She fits comfortably on the couch with my husband and me. So I'm not sure more indoor square footage is necessary, as long as you have a good spot for a crate and pen. 

We kept Peggy's pen up until she was 15 months old. It was invaluable. I'd have happily kept it longer, but I got sick of looking at it and navigating around it.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Skylar said:


> My minipoo rarely barks. I thought there was something wrong with her voice because people could ring our door bell and she didn’t bark.
> I was watching dog agility on tv and she saw those very determined and aggressive looking dogs coming through the weave poles and she started barking. She only barks at aggressive dogs.
> 
> My minipoos I had as a child also didn’t bark, but the tpoo we had when my kids were little barked too much. I’m not sure what the difference is but hopefully you won’t get a barker.
> ...


I have a yorkie he barks at everything but I live in a house now, so I can take him barking. My little sister will be keeping him because they love each other, which is why am looking at getting another dog.I plan on hiring someone to walk him when I am work and I will go walking with when I get out before bed. Training is definitely important and I saw a company I really like in Texas I have been doing some research let me tell you lol. I listen to a lot of jazz, classics etc so I also will be playing that for him before I leave for work. This forum is amazing thank you so much for the feedback


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I got my spoo while living in an apartment. Its definitely doable, but, you end up having to be a way better owner and more careful trainer than most people in a house have to be. Offleash or long line running and play was ESSENTIAL to having a well behaved dog though.
> 
> No matter how much i walked and trained her, if she hadnt had a chance to tear around offleash in a week, she was miserable to live with. Dog parks arent always a great solution, the one in the town i lived in was full of aggressive dogs. So i tried to take her somewhere to run off leash or dragging a long line one , preferably 2 times a week, plus three 10-30 min walks/day. And i tried to train her NOT to play in the evening, which was harder. I would do it again though.


Thank you so much, I actually was looking at walking him for 30-45 mins twice a day and maybe the walker can walk him for an hour. The experience and loyalty we get from our babies is worth anything, I don’t regret anything and I am looking forward to this new journey of mine. Thank you and i appreciate you


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Mr.Ziggy said:


> My 10 month old Spoo and I are in an apartment and it has worked out very well. Ziggy tends to be very chill inside. A few pieces of advice to consider :
> 
> 1) Going with a breeder that has a history of therapy dogs will help you find one with a quieter temperament than a hunting line.
> 
> ...


I have been seeing a lot of breeders online, but I found one in Texas that is highly recommended. Most of the Poodles I am seeing are from puppy find, but I don’t know if they are legit. Yea I am very calm and I don’t like a lot of noise. Is the maze bowl good? I have been seeing them but was a little skeptical, I am definitely going to take him for morning walks he will need it since I will be at work. I love your ideas thanks you so much appreciate it


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Liz said:


> I agree with the consensus: It's possible but not easy, especially if you live alone. Poodles really don't like to be home alone all day, and they need lots of physical and mental stimulation. You may find that your non-work time is consumed with taking care of your dog.
> 
> You said that you're not active, but you're hoping a dog will help change that. I think it's wise to look into doggy daycare and a dog walker (if you don't WFH). What's your experience with dogs? What kinds have you or your family had in the past?


I am going to put him in a doggy daycare and get him a walker. I grew up with Pitbulls, Rottweilers, German Shepherd’s, Yorkie, Golden Retriever , I never had a poodle before which is way more calmer than some of the dogs I’ve had before. It is definitely going to be a challenge the first months, but I am up for the challenge. I am worried about me living alone and with a poodle, if it was a German Shepherds I wouldn’t be nearly this nervous lol


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Jenna2020 said:


> I am getting a standard poodle soon and I also live in a condo. I also am not the most active person, I don't go jogging or anything and sometimes can be downright lazy. My plan is to head to off leash areas, we have some beaches and walking areas where dogs can go off leash. I also plan to ( when the dog is old enough), to hire a dog walker to do two long hikes a week, which is something I have no desire to do. I am hoping two long work out sessions like this will help keep everyone happy.


Me too no jogging for me lol I’ll have a heart attack lol I haven’t jog in 5 years. Hiring a dog walker is something to definitely look into and maybe you can go home during your breaks to walk him. Good luck and I hope you your baby soon. I am getting a standard too ❤


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I just meant we at Poodle Forum can help you out. Post questions any time! We'll be here for you.  I'm not sure how I'd have navigated Peggy's first year without our knowledgable (and kind!) members.
> 
> As for getting more space, I didn't (and still don't) allow Peggy to run wild inside. And she doesn't take up a lot of room. She fits comfortably on the couch with my husband and me. So I'm not sure more indoor square footage is necessary, as long as you have a good spot for a crate and pen.
> 
> We kept Peggy's pen up until she was 15 months old. It was invaluable. I'd have happily kept it longer, but I got sick of looking at it and navigating around it.


I am so shocked at the feedback am getting from this forum you guys are so amazing, I am so lucky to join but I was nervous people won’t respond to my post. I am taking notes down and making sure I remember how to keep my soon to be Babu active and happy. I saw a crate on YouTube called potty training doggy apartment, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard from them butthe crates are so expensive almost 600$ for one Phew lol.


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## Mr.Ziggy (Jul 14, 2020)

Kunuz said:


> I have been seeing a lot of breeders online, but I found one in Texas that is highly recommended. Most of the Poodles I am seeing are from puppy find, but I don’t know if they are legit. Yea I am very calm and I don’t like a lot of noise. Is the maze bowl good? I have been seeing them but was a little skeptical, I am definitely going to take him for morning walks he will need it since I will be at work. I love your ideas thanks you so much appreciate it


The mazebowl helps him to slow down. With Standards you have to make sure they don't eat too fast to reduce the risk of bloat (if you aren't familiar with bloat, definitely do some research to prepare). I think it is better than a regular bowl if your future pup tends to gulp it's food instead of grazing at it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Exercise is very important, but "appropriate" is the key, especially to a pup's age. See these for details: 









APPROPRIATE EXERCISE


PUPPY FITNESS THAT FITS THE PUPPY Age Appropriate Exercise Guidelines By Jane Killion Director of the film “Puppy Culture - The Critical First 12 Weeks That Can Shape Your Puppy’s Future” THERE'S AN IDEA that’s caught on like wildfire that exercise is some kind panacea that will solve all...




shoppuppyculture.com





From another thread a few months ago:

*How Much Exercise a Poodle Needs

Puppies* - For toys and miniatures under 1 year old and *standards under 18 months old*, owners must carefully schedule exercise times. Offering quick bouts of outdoor walking is a great way to for the puppy to discharge their abundant energy.
That being said, greatly exceeding exercise limits for puppies can be detrimental to their growth.

Why? During the first year for toys and miniature Poodles (and *until about 18 months old for standard Poodles), the bones are still forming and growing. At the end of all major bones are growth plates; these are soft areas that contain rapidly dividing cells that are instrumental in allowing the bones to develop and grow longer as the Poodle pup matures from puppy to adult.

Once a Poodle is done with puberty and is officially an adult dog that is done growing (approx 18-24m), the plates harden and calcify. Until that time, over-exercise can cause injury to this soft bone tissue and interfere with normal bone growth. *

So, you'll want to find a balance of enough walks, for the proper duration, to allow the pup to release energy and start becoming socialized to the world, yet be careful to not exercise your Poodle puppy to such an extent that it could possibly harm those growth plates.

Do keep in mind that normal play in the house, etc. is expected and a puppy needn't be crated to keep him from moving around! Over-exercise relates to repetitive actions such as running, walking briskly, etc. for an extended amount of time… It is important that a puppy romp around to his heart's desire… when he gets tired, he will rest. You just never want to push a young puppy into activity that puts stress on the body and raises the heartbeat if he is not up to it.

*In looking at these guidelines, we must remember that the duration is the same, no matter the size of the dog. This is because it is the pace at which the dog moves that equates a state of exercise. Toys will trot and standard Poodles will trot, and it is the owner that will need to adjust the pace at which they walk to keep the dog going briskly. *

A good rule of thumb is: 5 minutes per day, for each month of age. Here is a quick reference of recommended exercise times:

3 months old = One 15 minute walk each day
4 months old = Total of 20 minutes; this can be two 10 minute walks
5 months old = Total of 25 minutes; split into two walks
6 months old = Total of 30 minutes; split into three 10 or two 15 minute walks
7 months old = Total of 35 minutes; divided into two sessions
8 months old = Total of 40 minutes; best if done in three sessions (15, 15 and 10 minutes)
9 months old = Total of 45 minutes; best if done in three sessions (15, 15, 15)
10 months old = Total of 50 minutes; best if done in three sessions (20, 15, 15)
11 months old = Total of 55 minutes; best if done in three sessions (20, 15, 20)
For standards only, 12 months through 23 months = Continuation of 55 minutes (20, 15, 20). Toys and minis will at this point, move ahead to adult exercise requirements.

You'll want to go at a moderate pace that is not overwhelming. Young puppies are only starting to learn about how to walk on leash and it can take some time for them to focus on proper heeling. Ahead, we'll dive into tips to making walking a more pleasant experience coming up."

here's the link to that page:


*  Poodle Exercise Requirements | Toy, Mini, Standard  *
How much exercise a Poodle needs to stay healthy. Puppies, adults and seniors of each variety. Tips for exercising during the summer and winter.







www.allpoodleinfo.com

Indoors, there are lots of ways to drain a pup's energy, for example controlled play, puzzle toys, and brain games (aka training ) 



Kunuz said:


> I never had a poodle before which is way more calmer than some of the dogs I’ve had before.


What's your definition of calmer ?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Kunuz said:


> Most of the Poodles I am seeing are from puppy find, but I don’t know if they are legit.


It's possible that a very small percentage are legit but puppy find and sites like it are considered, at best, primarily brokers for wholesale puppy breeders. I'd RUN!

JIC you're not familiar with a lot of conscientious poodle breeders, this is my personal checklist for choosing a breeder.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these criteria are important in choosing a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

Breeding Program 
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breed
by breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing
or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available
AKC Registry Lookup


Dog Search


! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"


! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation.
This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Kunuz said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have been doing my research about poodles for months and can’t wait to get my new baby. However, my only issue is that I am moving to an apartment and a new state. How do you guys think the poodle will adjust or if the apartment life will work for us ?
> Thank you


I'm assuming you are working with a responsible breeder who temperament tests their dogs. You can work with the breeder to obtain a more laid back puppy if that will suit your lifestyle more appropriately (apartment life v. backyard to run and play, your activity level, etc.). I do a lot of training and showing in performance and work with my breeder to get the best performance pup in the litter, dogs with high drive/high energy, because that's what I want in a dog. But there are a variety of temperaments in every litter and a middle to lower end of the road temperament might set you up better for success...


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Exercise is very important, but "appropriate" is the key, especially to a pup's age. See these for details:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When I say calmer I mean a dog that’s not just going to bark at everything, my Yorkie barks at everything literally. I saved you’re notes and will be implementing it in my daily routine.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Eclipse said:


> I'm assuming you are working with a responsible breeder who temperament tests their dogs. You can work with the breeder to obtain a more laid back puppy if that will suit your lifestyle more appropriately (apartment life v. backyard to run and play, your activity level, etc.). I do a lot of training and showing in performance and work with my breeder to get the best performance pup in the litter, dogs with high drive/high energy, because that's what I want in a dog. But there are a variety of temperaments in every litter and a middle to lower end of the road temperament might set you up better for success...


Right now I was working with Wolfe Island Poodles and I’ve looked at other places but they never reply. Who is your breeder if you don’t mind sharing ? I want to work with someone that’s trusted and love what they do. I don’t want a puppy from a mill that’s a no no for me


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> It's possible that a very small percentage are legit but puppy find and sites like it are considered, at best, primarily brokers for wholesale puppy breeders. I'd RUN!
> 
> JIC you're not familiar with a lot of conscientious poodle breeders, this is my personal checklist for choosing a breeder.
> 
> ...


I was looking into 
Apricot & Cream Standard Poodles and Poodle Puppies For Sale | Family Affair Standards but I don’t know about them anymore, the reviews I am seeing is horrible some are even calling them a puppy mill. However, on their social media pages they seem to take good care of their poodles and doesn’t look like a mill. I am also looking into Wolfe Island Poodles. I want an excellent breeder and I refuse to settle for less lmaoooo


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> I was looking into
> Apricot & Cream Standard Poodles and Poodle Puppies For Sale | Family Affair Standards but I don’t know about them anymore, the reviews I am seeing is horrible some are even calling them a puppy mill. However, on their social media pages they seem to take good care of their poodles and doesn’t look like a mill. I am also looking into Wolfe Island Poodles. I want an excellent breeder and I refuse to settle for less lmaoooo


There have been previous threads on Family Affair with quite a bit of info. Here is the first one I saw in search. I am sure there are others.









Family Affair


So, I've been looking at a LOT of breeders' web sites. I saw the thread about Ash's Mystical in NV, and it brought to mind this breeder: Standard Poodles For Sale Puppies Breeder White Cream Red Standard Poodles What do you think? I, according to what I've learned from the forum, see several...




www.poodleforum.com


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Which geographic region do you live in? You've mentioned a breeder in Texas and another in the Carolinas. It sounds you are setting yourself up for quite the road trip.. I'm sure we can find you a recommendation for someone closer and better.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Which geographic region do you live in? You've mentioned a breeder in Texas and another in the Carolinas. It sounds you are setting yourself up for quite the road trip.. I'm sure we can find you a recommendation for someone closer and better.


I live in Rhode Island but I am moving to Texas in July next year, I was going to pass the Carolinas and pick up the puppy. However, I thought about getting a puppy in Texas since that would be easier. If I find a breeder in my area right now I wouldn’t mind, because it will give me a chance to meet the breeder and picking up the puppy would be easier. You guys are so amazing, this forum definitely makes my search a lot easier.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> There have been previous threads on Family Affair with quite a bit of info. Here are the first two I saw in search. I am sure there are others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much I went through to the threads and there are too many red flags. Is also so confusing because you have some of their die hard fans saying something completely different.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

In addition to checking out the recommendations here, I would also check out the AKC marketplace. This will give you a list of a hundred or so breeders expecting litters. You can then start winnowing out the no-goes based on geography, health testing, high volume, etc.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> Thank you so much I went through to the threads and there are too many red flags. Is also so confusing because you have some of their die hard fans saying something completely different.


Plenty of people have gotten dogs they've loved from bad situations. Pet stores, puppy mills... there are plenty of great dogs that come from shelters. Any breeder will have some buyers who end up very happy with their dog. It's the buyers that don't end up happy that I am more concerned with. And the parent dogs that may not be treated well. I not only want to optimize my chance of getting a healthy, temperamentally sound dog, but I also am very particular about which breeders I support.

Another thing... breeders that breed for profit tend to be extremely good at marketing their dogs. _Of course_ they're good at talking to prospective buyers and telling them all the right things. They want to make money. This is why I distrust them. I'd rather have an aloof breeder that puts all of their heart and soul into their dogs and breeding program than one that acts like a car salesman.

I personally put a lot of stock in what a breeder does with their dogs to prove they are worthy of breeding. I like to see conformation and performance titles because they prove that the dog has a solid temperament and is very trainable. Not every dog in a breeding program needs titles, but to me it shows that the breeder is breeding for a purpose and proving their dogs' worth in terms of adding to the gene pool.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Kunuz said:


> I was looking into
> Apricot & Cream Standard Poodles and Poodle Puppies For Sale | Family Affair Standards but I don’t know about them anymore, the reviews I am seeing is horrible some are even calling them a puppy mill. However, on their social media pages they seem to take good care of their poodles and doesn’t look like a mill. I am also looking into Wolfe Island Poodles. I want an excellent breeder and I refuse to settle for less lmaoooo


I got Happy there. There were zero red flags. Communication was, and is, great. I was able to visit my puppy at four weeks and met her parents. I could have gone more, but it's a three hour drive. It is a business, but the staff super freindly, professional, and seem to really be into what they do. They provided pictures of my growing puppy upon request, usually within a couple hours of my text or email. My puppy was groomed, immunized, healthy and ready to go on pick up day. Everything checked out greeat with my vet the next week. From what I witnessed, the puppies are well socialized, especially with children. Happy adusted quickly and has bonded strongly with everyone in my family. She loves kids and is very social. We've has no medical issues and she's passed all her puppy vet visits with flying colors. Happy is just over five months old. Bottom line - would I get another dog from them? Yes. I know they might not pass every area of the breeder purity test, but they checked the neccessary blocks for me. Good luck finding your puppy - Brian


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Plenty of people have gotten dogs they've loved from bad situations. Pet stores, puppy mills... there are plenty of great dogs that come from shelters. Any breeder will have some buyers who end up very happy with their dog. It's the buyers that don't end up happy that I am more concerned with. And the parent dogs that may not be treated well. I not only want to optimize my chance of getting a healthy, temperamentally sound dog, but I also am very particular about which breeders I support.
> 
> Another thing... breeders that breed for profit tend to be extremely good at marketing their dogs. _Of course_ they're good at talking to prospective buyers and telling them all the right things. They want to make money. This is why I distrust them. I'd rather have an aloof breeder that puts all of their heart and soul into their dogs and breeding program than one that acts like a car salesman.
> 
> I personally put a lot of stock in what a breeder does with their dogs to prove they are worthy of breeding. I like to see conformation and performance titles because they prove that the dog has a solid temperament and is very trainable. Not every dog in a breeding program needs titles, but to me it shows that the breeder is breeding for a purpose and proving their dogs' worth in terms of adding to the gene pool.





cowpony said:


> In addition to checking out the recommendations here, I would also check out the AKC marketplace. This will give you a list of a hundred or so breeders expecting litters. You can then start winnowing out the no-goes based on geography, health testing, high volume, etc.


I have been checking AKC marketplace and most breeders don’t have litters that would be ready by the time I am ready to move. I also completely agree with you, I don’t want to get a puppy from somebody that just wanted the money and is not going to be honest with me. It’s been such a journey and Ive spoken to breeders that I knew where full of it from the moment I look at their website. I wish people where more honest and would just do things the right way. It would make it so much easier for everybody. I guess I’ll have to keep looking and I will remember all you’re advice when I find a breeder.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Happy'sDad said:


> I got Happy there. There were zero red flags. Communication was, and is, great. I was able to visit my puppy at four weeks and met her parents. I could have gone more, but it's a three hour drive. It is a business, but the staff super freindly, professional, and seem to really be into what they do. They provided pictures of my growing puppy upon request, usually within a couple hours of my text or email. My puppy was groomed, immunized, healthy and ready to go on pick up day. Everything checked out greeat with my vet the next week. From what I witnessed, the puppies are well socialized, especially with children. Happy adusted quickly and has bonded strongly with everyone in my family. She loves kids and is very social. We've has no medical issues and she's passed all her puppy vet visits with flying colors. Happy is just over five months old. Bottom line - would I get another dog from them? Yes. I know they might not pass every area of the breeder purity test, but they checked the neccessary blocks for me. Good luck finding your puppy - Brian


Omg you got a puppy from them? I am so happy right now I spoke to Beth and she was so good with answering my questions. She also said I could contact her if I needed more info, that gave me a sense of relieve but I started doing my research and just saw people saying things I was not comfortable with. However, when I go to their page they look so legit and honest, I just found it weird that they dock their tails or am I over thinking things. I love that she also stated that I could pay for the full puppy instead of putting a deposit down, so she won’t get the tail docked. Am I going crazy or it doesn’t matter if the tail is dock or not. Another breeder I spoke to was so rude and told me if I needed any information it was on their website i just blocked her lol. I think am going to talk to Beth again and just voice my concerns, I do like them but the red flags are just making it hard for me to decide to go with them. Also am I overreacting lmao? I think am going crazy lol


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> I love that she also stated that I could pay for the full puppy instead of putting a deposit down, so she won’t get the tail docked.


Does this mean your puppy would be chosen within the first few days, when tails are typically docked? That right there would be a problem for me, as there is no way to assess the puppy's temperament at such a young age.

Even if you're not concerned about an official temperament test, before committing to a specific puppy you want to know if he or she is the shy wallflower, happy-go-lucky, extremely confident with a high drive, etc. (And a good breeder is also going to want to ensure you are appropriately matched.)


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Kunuz said:


> Omg you got a puppy from them? I am so happy right now I spoke to Beth and she was so good with answering my questions. She also said I could contact her if I needed more info, that gave me a sense of relieve but I started doing my research and just saw people saying things I was not comfortable with. However, when I go to their page they look so legit and honest, I just found it weird that they dock their tails or am I over thinking things. I love that she also stated that I could pay for the full puppy instead of putting a deposit down, so she won’t get the tail docked. Am I going crazy or it doesn’t matter if the tail is dock or not. Another breeder I spoke to was so rude and told me if I needed any information it was on their website i just blocked her lol. I think am going to talk to Beth again and just voice my concerns, I do like them but the red flags are just making it hard for me to decide to go with them. Also am I overreacting lmao? I think am going crazy lol


The tail docking wasn't an issue for me. I'm not advocating my breeder over any other, just relating my experience. Temperament and health were most important to me, as was customer service. Family Affairs did right by me.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Does this mean your puppy would be chosen within the first few days, when tails are typically docked? That right there would be a problem for me, as there is no way to assess the puppy's temperament at such a young age.
> 
> Even if you're not concerned about an official temperament test, before committing to a specific puppy you want to know if he or she is the shy wallflower, happy-go-lucky, extremely confident with a high drive, etc. (And a good breeder is also going to want to ensure you are appropriately matched.)


Yes I want to pick the puppy the first few days because I don’t want his tail to be docked. Is that a good idea or ? I definitely want to have the temperament test, I want to matched with the right dog for me. What I don’t want is for them to be a puppy mill or not provide the proof I need to make sure the puppy is healthy.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Happy'sDad said:


> The tail docking wasn't an issue for me. I'm not advocating my breeder over any other, just relating my experience. Temperament and health were most important to me, as was customer service. Family Affairs did right by me.


Beth is from family affairs as well, yes customer service is a plus for me and I am trying to make sure I get a health puppy. I will most definitely continue talking to them and make sure I also educate myself with what breeder to go with. I am used to the German shepherds and Rottweilers I know how they are, never got a poodle before so I want to make sure I am going about this the right way. 

You’re awesome appreciate your feedback


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> Yes I want to pick the puppy the first few days because I don’t want his tail to be docked. Is that a good idea or ? I definitely want to have the temperament test, I want to matched with the right dog for me. What I don’t want is for them to be a puppy mill or not provide the proof I need to make sure the puppy is healthy.


If you pick a puppy within the first few days there is no way to do a temperament test. It is a blind newborn. There is no temperament yet. It is highly discouraged to do this because there is no way to distinguish temperaments at this age. If you want an undocked tail I would look for a whole litter that will have undocked tails. Good breeders will typically refuse to not dock one pup's tail for these reasons. The whole litter gets docked or not. That way puppies are paired with families at the appropriate time.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> Yes I want to pick the puppy the first few days because I don’t want his tail to be docked. Is that a good idea or ? I definitely want to have the temperament test, I want to matched with the right dog for me. What I don’t want is for them to be a puppy mill or not provide the proof I need to make sure the puppy is healthy.


I don't think you could possibly know much about a puppy's temperament at a few days old, aside from what you know of the dam and sire. But even within a litter there can be a wide range.

Maybe someone can correct me, but I can't really think of a way to get an undocked tail unless the whole litter is left undocked.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said it better than me


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Raindrops said it better than me


Great minds think alike...


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is a more current thread with Family Affair mentioned:








Is this a purebred poodle puppy?


I am on the search for a poodle puppy and came across this little one on a website for $1600. My question is, Do you guys think she is a purebred poodle? She is cute but I want to get a second opinion before contacting the breeder any further.




www.poodleforum.com





For those who have poodles from them, and are happy with their poodles and comfortable with the breeder, I mean no disrespect to your choice and hope for nothing but happiness for you all. 

I have too many reservations based on information posted on their website, the videos and the other online information for me to want to support them .


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a more current thread with Family Affair mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I knew there was a recent thread. Thanks for finding it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Something that we don't often go thru in detail in these conversations is the "health" warranty or guarantee. 

My general feeling is that the more limits and restrictions a breeder puts on a contract/health guarantee the more likely it is that they've had an issue with that and are trying to minimize their risk, not the buyers. 
Again, generally speaking, a breeder confident in their practices, and health and other testing doesn't feel the need to cover every base in a contract. They believe their dogs will stand the test of time.

This is a link to a post with examples of contracts, good (favors the poodles and their new families) or not so much (favors the breeder).


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> If you pick a puppy within the first few days there is no way to do a temperament test. It is a blind newborn. There is no temperament yet. It is highly discouraged to do this because there is no way to distinguish temperaments at this age. If you want an undocked tail I would look for a whole litter that will have undocked tails. Good breeders will typically refuse to not dock one pup's tail for these reasons. The whole litter gets docked or not. That way puppies are paired with families at the appropriate time.


Thank you I appreciate you’re feedback now I know what to look for in a breeder, I just don’t want to get a puppy the wrong way or not have the right information I need. I will continue my search finding a good breeder is so hard lol I have been researching for months and always hit a dead end. I appreciate this forum. 

❤


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Why the tight timeline around your move? I personally would have gone nuts dealing wirh moving and a young puppy at the same time. Moving furniture, unboxing, and the associated chaos and tiredness isnt really a puppy friendly endeavour. For me at least, it means a week or two of stuff EVERYWHERE and a lot of ignoring my dog Adding to moving the chaos of finding safe puppy walking routes, socialization opportunities (prior to age 12-14 weeks is the most important window for socialization), niddle of the night potty breaks, etc would be a recipe for a mental breakdown for me, i think.

I remember very little of Annies first kinda chaotic month. I was exhausted from late night, middle of the night, and early morning potty trips, coming home at lunchtime for puppy potty breaks. Life was very puppy focused, tons of vet trips for shots, going all over the place to buy puppy stuff and socialize her to any store that would allow a dog, arranging play dates with other safe dogs and cats, and a lot of cleaning up dog pee (she was an excitement pee-er, so peed anytime she met a new dog, i came home, etc). Oh, and collapsing for exhausted naps on my bed, cuddling a puppy. I couldnt personally do both at once. 

I would also honestly struggle with getting a dog right now - socialization opportunities are so limited, and in my area 2/3 of puppy classes are cancelled due to facility closures.

Also, if tail docking is a big concern, look for UKC breeders, as they seem to dock less. If you are determined to get an undocked dog, if you find an undocked litter you might be ablento get a UKC puppy chosen for temperment rather than a puppy chosen before its eyes even open. Personally, rather than registry, proof the breeder 'does something'with their dogs, and has dogs who can perform confidently in public (either a dog sport, or conformation shows) is one of my biggest criteria.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Raindrops said it better than me


Either way I still appreciate you guys lol I want to make sure I am doing the right thing by my fur baby


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a more current thread with Family Affair mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Believe me I don’t mind the honesty and don’t take it as disrespect. You’re helping me in my journey and I appreciate you all so much, I will take all the feedback you give me and I prefer honesty more than anything.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

No breeder and no situation is 100% perfect. What is important is to know which compromises you are willing to accept and what the consequences might be. Some criteria in no particular order:

Geography
Color
Show quality conformation
Temperament
Tail docking
Socialization
Health testing
Litter timing
Home environment for dam and sire
Size
The list goes on... 
Right now it's a bit harder to find a puppy due to covid. You may need to compromise on something you don't want to. Personally, I think that health testing, temperament, and socialization are criteria no one should ever compromise on. The puppy, hopefully, will be in your life for the next 10 to 15 years. Those years will be a lot more pleasant for everyone if the dog is healthy and temperamentally suited to the household.

In your situation, since you will be renting and your life will probably be a little chaotic with the move, I think calm temperament should be heavily weighted in your choice. You don't want to live the next decade with a dog that barks at the neighbors and anxiously chews the window sills every time you go out.

I've gone through two puppy hunts this year, first when my boy Snarky suddenly died and then when I lost his brother Pogo to cancer. I know of a breeder whose dogs are everything I want in terms of color, size, tail docking, availability, and geography. I could have driven over the day after I lost Snarky and come home with a new buddy for Pogo. However, this breeder does not meet my standards for health testing or socialization. Swipe left.

In replacing Pogo I've chosen to compromise on timing and geography. I've asked to be added to a wait list for a litter being bred in Canada next spring. Assuming everything goes as expected, I will get my preferred color, temperament, health tests, etc. I just have to wait for it and drive to Canada.

I think an experienced breeder can steer you in the right direction even without formal temperament testing. Before settling on the Canadian litter I contacted a breeder with a lovely litter of health tested undocked puppies. I described what I wanted. She got back to me with, no. She breeds for hunting and performance. Both parents have high prey drive and come from lines which have high energy and high prey drive. She felt it extremely unlikely that any puppy from this litter would meet my needs. She was be happy to recommend another breeder if I was interested. I'm totally fine with this answer. Disappointed, because I and Galen both want a puppy, but fine. We can wait for the Canadian litter.

In replacing Snarky I made different compromises than what I'm making for the Canadian litter. Timing was really important. I needed a dog ASAP to comfort the grieving Pogo. Galen's breeder had two litters. One set of parents was higher energy, so I was directed to the other litter. Galen's litter wasn't the color I wanted. The parents were smaller than I wanted. However, temperament is more important. Unlocked tails are something I insist on. Galen's breeders normally dock. His breeders also normally hold back at least one puppy for showing. The compromise the breeder reached was to leave all the mismarks from Galen's litter undocked, as mismarks can't be shown in conformation. The buyers who wanted unlocked tails got them without impacting the show buyers. I was given my choice from the undocked group. The breeders felt Galen's litter was pretty uniform in terms of temperament, so I wasn't too concerned about making a disastrous choice. After watching the puppies interact with strangers and other puppies, I selected the one which recovered easily from being bowled over by the stampeding puppy pack and showed some boldness without getting in everyone's face. Indeed, Galen is turning out to be a very well suited dog.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Why the tight timeline around your move? I personally would have gone nuts dealing wirh moving and a young puppy at the same time. Moving furniture, unboxing, and the associated chaos and tiredness isnt really a puppy friendly endeavour. For me at least, it means a week or two of stuff EVERYWHERE and a lot of ignoring my dog Adding to moving the chaos of finding safe puppy walking routes, socialization opportunities (prior to age 12-14 weeks is the most important window for socialization), niddle of the night potty breaks, etc would be a recipe for a mental breakdown for me, i think.
> 
> I remember very little of Annies first kinda chaotic month. I was exhausted from late night, middle of the night, and early morning potty trips, coming home at lunchtime for puppy potty breaks. Life was very puppy focused, tons of vet trips for shots, going all over the place to buy puppy stuff and socialize her to any store that would allow a dog, arranging play dates with other safe dogs and cats, and a lot of cleaning up dog pee (she was an excitement pee-er, so peed anytime she met a new dog, i came home, etc). Oh, and collapsing for exhausted naps on my bed, cuddling a puppy. I couldnt personally do both at once.
> 
> ...


The only reason I am so tight around my move is because I will be moving alone and I want the puppy to get familiar with the house . I was thinking that it would be the perfect time for me since I won’t be working for two months. However, my mom and sister are also coming with me to help with unpacking and getting my place together. I was worried about the socialization aspect of it at a time like this, but I found puppy classes in Texas that are open and limiting how many pups they will be working with. This is something I am still looking into, I am also thinking of possibly picking up the puppy two weeks after my move. I don’t even think my timeline would work out, I can’t find a good breeder to save my life Lmaooo. The only reason I am concerned about the tail being docked, is because I found information stating that the tail docking hurts the puppy and is not good for them that’s the only reason why am so stuck on not getting the tail docked.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

cowpony said:


> No breeder and no situation is 100% perfect. What is important is to know which compromises you are willing to accept and what the consequences might be. Some criteria in no particular order:
> 
> Geography
> Color
> ...


I am so sorry about your fur babies I know how it feels, I lost two of my German shepherds and since then my life hasn’t been the same. I also think that the temp test would be important since I would be renting for now, I don’t want my neighbors to hate us lol. I also saw a Breeder I was obsessed with she was so on point with everything, but her waitlist til next year November and I’ll have to drive all the way to Kansas lol oh no I won’t especially when I will be going by myself lol. I am only worried about the tail docking because I read somewhere it was not good for them, I am still looking into this but if the tail docking is good for them then I don’t mind. Is just hard finding the right breeder and somebody who would be honest with you, I am not ready to spend my hard earn money on a scammer or somebody who doesn’t know anything about their dogs. Thank you so much for your feedback you’re amazing ❤


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Docking is a personal, and controversial issue. I am ok with either, personally, so long as the person docking is experienced and its done at 3-5 days. Other people have strong preferences for docked, or non-docked for various reasons. There are many threads discussing it - usually members who have participated in docking say it seems to be pretty trauma free. Heres one. Docked tail?


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Docking is a personal, and controversial issue. I am ok with either, personally, so long as the person docking is experienced and its done at 3-5 days. Other people have strong preferences for docked, or non-docked for various reasons. There are many threads discussing it - usually members who have participated in docking say it seems to be pretty trauma free. Heres one. Docked tail?


I will try to be more open to the tail being docked, I don’t want to do anything that would cause health concerns for the puppy in the future. Thank god is trauma free that was also a concern and one of the main reasons why I didn’t want the tail to be docked. Thank you for the link ❤❤


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Where I previously lived, on one of my neighbors had a German Shepherd in a 500 sq ft apartment. If that can be managed, I think you could handle any sized poodle in an apartment. You just need to make sure your pup gets enough exercise. Living on the first floor is easiest in my opinion. Also, make sure to check apartment policies for wherever you are moving, because some of them only allow puppies over a certain age.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There's a lot of posts and some info is in another thread, so I'm going to try to recap here so I can be sure I understand your needs.

* You're moving from somewhere to Texas
When is that going to happen?
* You're looking at breeders in your current area and where you're going to be. How large is your search range? Or are you focusing on Texas and that region?
Are you comfortable with your breeder being hundreds of miles away from where you settle if you find one out of your preferred range?

You feel the timing works best to bring the poodle home at the time of the move
You'll be in an apartment/townhouse/condo living situation (immediate neighbors and not likely a private fenced yard)
You're most interested in a standard poodle (closer to low range 20"? or larger?)
You want a calmer, non barky dog, for everyone's sake 
You're aware of and can meet the exercise needs of the poodle, appropriate to age
You're looking for a poodle with undocked tail but may be flexible on that depending on what you learn
You haven't mentioned dewclaws that I remember. How do you feel about those?
You feel health testing is important
You haven't mentioned whether you have savings to cover emergency medical care, or if you plan to get pet health insurance? (this can seriously run into thousands of dollars so be sure you have a plan in place)
What have I missed?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Kunuz said:


> I am so sorry about your fur babies I know how it feels, I lost two of my German shepherds and since then my life hasn’t been the same. I also think that the temp test would be important since I would be renting for now, I don’t want my neighbors to hate us lol. I also saw a Breeder I was obsessed with she was so on point with everything, but her waitlist til next year November and I’ll have to drive all the way to Kansas lol oh no I won’t especially when I will be going by myself lol. I am only worried about the tail docking because I read somewhere it was not good for them, I am still looking into this but if the tail docking is good for them then I don’t mind. Is just hard finding the right breeder and somebody who would be honest with you, I am not ready to spend my hard earn money on a scammer or somebody who doesn’t know anything about their dogs. Thank you so much for your feedback you’re amazing ❤


Even though I'm 100% opposed to tail docking, I do not feel there is strong evidence that it leads to serious permanent health consequences when performed correctly on a puppy under 3 days old. I merely feel it is a painful and unneeded cosmetic procedure. Your pup will have recovered by the time you take it home. 

I won't buy a pup with a docked tail, because I want to support breeders who resist the practice. It will probably take at least a generation for the poodle club here to consider changing its breed standard; the old timers who grew up thinking docked tails are proper need to age out and die off. However, the more we support younger breeders who don't dock, the more it destroys any economic argument for continuing the practice.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Even though I'm 100% opposed to tail docking, I do not feel there is strong evidence that it leads to serious permanent health consequences when performed correctly on a puppy under 3 days old. I merely feel it is a painful and unneeded cosmetic procedure. Your pup will have recovered by the time you take it home.
> 
> I won't buy a pup with a docked tail, because I want to support breeders who resist the practice. It will probably take at least a generation for the poodle club here to consider changing its breed standard; the old timers who grew up thinking docked tails are proper need to age out and die off. However, the more we support younger breeders who don't dock, the more it destroys any economic argument for continuing the practice.


That's true. Misha's breeder would not dock if she could show AKC that way. She has tried to show an undocked dog in akc but said it was too difficult.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a more current thread with Family Affair mentioned:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was hesitant to reveal Happy came from Family Affair because I’m aware of the general attitude of some senior Poodle Forum members towards them. I now fear I’ve attached “puppy mill dog” label to my dog, which she isn’t. I have no doubt there are other happy PF members who got their dogs at FA but are hesitant to speak up for the same reason. I posted because I thought Kunuz deserved hearing a countering opinion by someone who’s had first experience with FA.

Again, I’m not here to defend or advocate any particular breeder, but feel compelled to speak up because the bad press is in direct conflict with what I experienced and witnessed. FA may not be a lot of things, but they are extremely transparent. I did a fare amount of research and contacted many breeders before I found Happy. I’m informed enough to avoid “puppies-r-us”, facebook scams, breeders who’ll only meet at the park, and the like. Happy was home before I stumbled onto PF. While I wish I had found this resource before I started my search, I doubt anything posted here would have cause me to pass on my puppy. I wonder how many of the horror stories I read here come from owners who got their dogs from what passed as a reputable breeder. I noticed a poster who offered up their very positive experience with FA in one of the older linked threads. Their post passed by without recognition. I also notice that poster had a very low number of posts – I wonder why.

To anyone seeking a SPOO, or any POO, puppy, I say do your own research; talk with people with skin in the game; get on the phone with breeder and visit if you can; seek and get the testimonies of people who got their dogs from that breeder; balance the bad vs good reviews; and go with your gut.

I apologize for rant. It touched a nerve after I posted my personal experience only to see the same tired old threads rolled out. Maybe I’m mistaken, or FA cleaned up their act in the past year. Again - apologies. I’ll shut up now as my extremely adorable SPOO is seeking my attention. - Brian


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Happy'sDad said:


> I was hesitant to reveal Happy came from Family Affair because I’m aware of the general attitude of some senior Poodle Forum members towards them. I now fear I’ve attached “puppy mill dog” label to my dog, which she isn’t. I have no doubt there are other happy PF members who got their dogs at FA but are hesitant to speak up for the same reason. I posted because I thought Kunuz deserved hearing a countering opinion by someone who’s had first experience with FA.
> 
> Again, I’m not here to defend or advocate any particular breeder, but feel compelled to speak up because the bad press is in direct conflict with what I experienced and witnessed. FA may not be a lot of things, but they are extremely transparent. I did a fare amount of research and contacted many breeders before I found Happy. I’m informed enough to avoid “puppies-r-us”, facebook scams, breeders who’ll only meet at the park, and the like. Happy was home before I stumbled onto PF. While I wish I had found this resource before I started my search, I doubt anything posted here would have cause me to pass on my puppy. I wonder how many of the horror stories I read here come from owners who got their dogs from what passed as a reputable breeder. I noticed a poster who offered up their very positive experience with FA in one of the older linked threads. Their post passed by without recognition. I also notice that poster had a very low number of posts – I wonder why.
> 
> ...


Brian, if you stand by Happy's breeder, that's okay. And if you don't, that's okay, too. It's also okay if you stand somewhere in the middle.

I'd not yet joined, but Poodle Forum didn't pull any punches when a well-meaning member posted a link to Peggy's breeder. And those members weren't wrong in their critique.

But I still keep in touch with Peggy's breeder, and am so grateful for her ongoing support. She did do a lot of things right with Peggy's litter—I have a very smart, snuggly, social poodle! The other owners I'm in touch with are very happy, too.

And while I feel frustrated when I see her continuing to make some of the same mistakes, I'm encouraged to see her improving in some ways, too.

All this to say, there's room for shades of grey in these conversations.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Brian, if you stand by Happy's breeder, that's okay. And if you don't, that's okay, too. It's also okay if you stand somewhere in the middle.
> 
> I'd not yet joined, but Poodle Forum didn't pull any punches when a well-meaning member posted a link to Peggy's breeder. And those members weren't wrong in their critique.
> 
> ...


Peggy is an awsome and beautiful dog, and I enjoy following her. I've learned a lot fdon your post. - B


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm going to open with this partial post I made a long time ago:

_My early poodles, 1963, 1970, and 1983, all came from "back yard breeders", 
AKC registered parents, but family pets who were bred. It wasn't until 2002 and 
my girls, Holly and Noel, that I purchased from a quality breeder, an AKC 
Breeder of Merit. Until that time, the only breeders that I had even heard of 
were strictly show breeders and not offering pups to the general public. 
I have purposely kept my boys origins to myself on this forum. While not strictly 
a BYB operation, they came from folks who think of themselves as good 
breeders, tho they were seriously undereducated on what makes a good 
breeder. There was so much they just didn't know. It was not my choice to get 
puppies from the folks that we did, but I seriously underestimated DH's desire 
to have a dog, no, a poodle again. We contacted rescue organizations and didn't 
even get the courtesy of a response. 
We had better luck getting positive responses from quality breeders but no one 
had a young adult female needing a home, and not likely to in the near future. 
The near future was our only window of opportunity. We felt that if we waited 
any longer, we would spend the rest of our lives however short or long without a 
poodle companion since we didn't want to leave behind an elder poodle 
suddenly needing a home. That was unthinkable. When a friend of his told DH 
about these boys, he was adamant that we go look and then adamant that we 
take them, exactly what we weren't looking for, puppies, two, and boys. 
It's not me specifically I was concerned about, it's how my boys would be viewed and how any 
information or advice I offered would be suspect. I did know better, well before 
joining the forum, and proceeded anyway. I went against what would have been 
all the best advice, though no one here knew of that til I have only now given all 
the facts. 
Strong feelings, our love of and desire to protect the poodles drive us all, but 
I'm not in favor of censure because we disagree, especially when we don't have 
all the facts. _

I'm adding this for now and I hope to add more later. No one should have to feel anything but welcome here, regardless of opinions of where their pup came from.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Breeder choice and criteria is a really really personal decision. I am sure, if i posted about my dogs breeder, several members wouldnt like her as she doesn't show in anything other than conformation, doesnt temperment test, and doesnt use Puppy culture. I wouldnt prefer to buy from a few highly recommended breeders here, for various reasons (not enough socialization, puppies go home at 8 weeks instead of 10-12, too high COI, etc). Thats ok, we all have different criteria. The more flexible your schedule for puppy acquisition, the more picky you can get! 

Similarly - FA wouldnt be my choice. I checked their site - honestly, the religiousity of it would turn me off immediately. Second, i dont like for profit breeding, 3rd, a huge site with lots of talk about how to pay and next to no talk about what health testing and socialization is done (they seem to imply diseases are rare (3%) so they shouldnt health test to the OFA recommendations?). You may have different criteria. Maybe price, maybe availability, colour, breeder responsiveness whatever. Thats ok! 

Can you still get a nice poodle from them? Of course. But its also fair for some people to point out why they dont like them. I


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Happy'sDad said:


> I was hesitant to reveal Happy came from Family Affair because I’m aware of the general attitude of some senior Poodle Forum members towards them. I now fear I’ve attached “puppy mill dog” label to my dog, which she isn’t. I have no doubt there are other happy PF members who got their dogs at FA but are hesitant to speak up for the same reason. I posted because I thought Kunuz deserved hearing a countering opinion by someone who’s had first experience with FA.
> 
> Again, I’m not here to defend or advocate any particular breeder, but feel compelled to speak up because the bad press is in direct conflict with what I experienced and witnessed. FA may not be a lot of things, but they are extremely transparent. I did a fare amount of research and contacted many breeders before I found Happy. I’m informed enough to avoid “puppies-r-us”, facebook scams, breeders who’ll only meet at the park, and the like. Happy was home before I stumbled onto PF. While I wish I had found this resource before I started my search, I doubt anything posted here would have cause me to pass on my puppy. I wonder how many of the horror stories I read here come from owners who got their dogs from what passed as a reputable breeder. I noticed a poster who offered up their very positive experience with FA in one of the older linked threads. Their post passed by without recognition. I also notice that poster had a very low number of posts – I wonder why.
> 
> ...


This is a good reminder to us all. When you are criticising a breeder, you are also criticising their dogs. And some of us on this board own these dogs. Someone at a workshop I attended this week started her presentation with a quote, "Before you speak ask yourself if what you are going to say is true, is kind, is necessary, is helpful. If the answer is no, maybe what you are about to say should be left unsaid.”


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Happy'sDad said:


> Peggy is an awsome and beautiful dog, and I enjoy following her. I've learned a lot fdon your post. - B


That's very kind of you to say. 

We spent a lot of time and money in Peggy's first months, addressing her social shortcomings. And there was a lot of fear early on that her behaviour issues were genetically "baked in." Some of that fear still lingers.

We were _extremely_ lucky to find a way-better-than-average trainer who has made herself readily available to us. We were also lucky to have the time and financial resources to provide Peggy with way-better-than-average care so that she could blossom.

What I want to communicate to prospective poodle buyers is that we didn't expect _any_ of this for the amount of money we paid for Peggy. If we'd wanted to rehabilitate a dog or manage behavioural issues, we'd have adopted from a local shelter or rescue group.

My last girl was a pet store dog. Eek. Everything about her first four months of life was wrong wrong wrong, and yet she still turned out delightfully right. People get lucky with poorly bred and under-socialized puppies all the time. But that doesn't mean I feel good about the conditions her dam and littermates likely endured, nor can I in good conscience encourage others to gamble on a puppy of questionable origins—not when I now know there are such wonderful breeders out there.

So if I or anyone else on Poodle Forum comes across as pushy or close-minded about breeders—or even downright rude—consider that it's probably coming from a good place. We don't ever want to see poodles or their humans suffer.

Likewise, I'll try to remember that there are people lurking on these threads who may have a sinking feeling in their stomach when they see their beloved poodle's breeder being raked over the coals. That's not cool either. We should always temper our critiques with kindness.

I hate to think that anyone would be scared away from contributing here because they're worried about unfair stigma. So on that note, let me remind you just how much I _adore_ Happy.  I'm so glad you've shared her with us and I hope you'll continue to let us watch her grow.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Happy'sDad said:


> I was hesitant to reveal Happy came from Family Affair because I’m aware of the general attitude of some senior Poodle Forum members towards them. I now fear I’ve attached “puppy mill dog” label to my dog, which she isn’t. I have no doubt there are other happy PF members who got their dogs at FA but are hesitant to speak up for the same reason. I posted because I thought Kunuz deserved hearing a countering opinion by someone who’s had first experience with FA.
> 
> Again, I’m not here to defend or advocate any particular breeder, but feel compelled to speak up because the bad press is in direct conflict with what I experienced and witnessed. FA may not be a lot of things, but they are extremely transparent. I did a fare amount of research and contacted many breeders before I found Happy. I’m informed enough to avoid “puppies-r-us”, facebook scams, breeders who’ll only meet at the park, and the like. Happy was home before I stumbled onto PF. While I wish I had found this resource before I started my search, I doubt anything posted here would have cause me to pass on my puppy. I wonder how many of the horror stories I read here come from owners who got their dogs from what passed as a reputable breeder. I noticed a poster who offered up their very positive experience with FA in one of the older linked threads. Their post passed by without recognition. I also notice that poster had a very low number of posts – I wonder why.
> 
> ...



now I feel bad this is not what I wanted, I don’t think you did anything wrong you where just helping me out. I am sorry please please know that I appreciate all your feedback and you help me with my journey in finding the right pup for me. I actually like FA but because of the negative comments I saw, it made me back off a little.But with you having a positive experience with them, it made me feel at ease a little. I am sorry again. Post you’re baby so we can see her,ugh she must be so beautiful. I just love me some poodles


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Kunuz said:


> now I feel bad this is not what I wanted, I don’t think you did anything wrong you where just helping me out.


We're all trying to help and I don't believe anyone did anything wrong or wants anyone to feel bad, especially when they're happy with their choices already made.

I don't ever want anyone to do or think anything because of my opinion. I hope they'll do what I've done, and that is to research for myself whatever the topic is so I can understand more fully and come to my own conclusions.

Information is the absolute key thing. If someone is new or unfamiliar with something, they _can't_ know what they don't know until they see or hear more on the subject. I kept my boys origins to myself for similar reasons to yours, Happy's Dad, but I also knew exactly what I was getting into when I agreed to get my blessed little boys from the breeder they came from and was prepared to deal with whatever came up. Not everyone joining PF has that experience or knowledge. 

I speak from my experiences and from the research I've done. I've been lucky with all my poodles, regardless of their origin. Not everyone is, and it's those sad tales I hope to help people miss. And not just them and their poodles, it's the future of the poodle breed that also concerns me. That's a large part of why I expect so much from a breeder.

Kunuz and Happy's Dad, I'm sorry that anyone felt bad when help was the goal.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

It's all good. I vented and am over it. It's obvious everyone here loves their dog(s), the breed, and want to set potential owners up for the best. - B


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Happy'sDad said:


> It's all good. I vented and am over it. It's obvious everyone here loves their dog(s), the breed, and want to set potential owners up for the best. - B


Appreciate you


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> We're all trying to help and I don't believe anyone did anything wrong or wants anyone to feel bad, especially when they're happy with their choices already made.
> 
> I don't ever want anyone to do or think anything because of my opinion. I hope they'll do what I've done, and that is to research for myself whatever the topic is so I can understand more fully and come to my own conclusions.
> 
> ...


Thank you I don’t like to see people’s feelings get hurt, especially when he was helping. Appreciate you thank you so much


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I just scanned through al of the discussion here and I only want to say something that I think is a positively intended comment that #1 criteria is temperament and criteria #1A is health records of pedigree (parents, grand parents and all going back). #1A can be evaluated before a puppy is born. #1 can only be evaluated when a puppy is about 7 weeks old. I have three friends who are excellent breeder of breeds other than poodles (shelties, English Cockers and CKCS). For them temperaments and encouragement of good social development are the number one issue of the time they spend with their litters. The English Cocker breeder docks tails. She just had her most recent litter temperament tested at 49 days old. I doubt very much that she would have opted to not dock a pup on speculation with a buyer that they would like the dog or follow through on the purchase if they didn't. My sheltie breeding friend has a litter has a litter that is just over 3 weeks old now. They are all fat little boys who are obviously thriving with their excellent mama but I can't tell anything about their personalities from watching her videos of them. I know many people don't like docking, but I don't much care either ways and would never commit to a particular pup that I couldn't assess the personality of. With Javelin the breeder knew I wanted a male and that I wanted to do obedience performance with him but that he would need a good boy personality that wouldn't try to be Lily's boss (she would try to kill another girl if I got one). She watched the five boys and in early weeks thought I would like orange collar since he showed signs of having a very good nose for all sorts of scent work until he got into a couple of dust ups with his sisters. He got crossed of the list of pups possibly for me in a hurry that day. Temperament Temperament Temperament!!!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Of you are driving from Rhode Island to Texas, you could easily swing through New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, or Kentucky. 

Ohio has a group of breeders I've been eyeing for a while: Shyre, Ghibli, Perigueux. They seem to be serious about health testing, and I'm pretty sure neither Shyre not Pergueux dock. I have no personal experience with any of them, however.

I would also look into Karbit in Texas.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

lily cd re said:


> I just scanned through al of the discussion here and I only want to say something that I think is a positively intended comment that #1 criteria is temperament and criteria #1A is health records of pedigree (parents, grand parents and all going back). #1A can be evaluated before a puppy is born. #1 can only be evaluated when a puppy is about 7 weeks old. I have three friends who are excellent breeder of breeds other than poodles (shelties, English Cockers and CKCS). For them temperaments and encouragement of good social development are the number one issue of the time they spend with their litters. The English Cocker breeder docks tails. She just had her most recent litter temperament tested at 49 days old. I doubt very much that she would have opted to not dock a pup on speculation with a buyer that they would like the dog or follow through on the purchase if they didn't. My sheltie breeding friend has a litter has a litter that is just over 3 weeks old now. They are all fat little boys who are obviously thriving with their excellent mama but I can't tell anything about their personalities from watching her videos of them. I know many people don't like docking, but I don't much care either ways and would never commit to a particular pup that I couldn't assess the personality of. With Javelin the breeder knew I wanted a male and that I wanted to do obedience performance with him but that he would need a good boy personality that wouldn't try to be Lily's boss (she would try to kill another girl if I got one). She watched the five boys and in early weeks thought I would like orange collar since he showed signs of having a very good nose for all sorts of scent work until he got into a couple of dust ups with his sisters. He got crossed of the list of pups possibly for me in a hurry that day. Temperament Temperament Temperament!!!


Health and temperament are my main concern and finding a breeder that is not a puppy mill. I have been talking to so many and some don’t even care about health or temperament testing.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Of you are driving from Rhode Island to Texas, you could easily swing through New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Tennessee, or Kentucky.
> 
> Ohio has a group of breeders I've been eyeing for a while: Shyre, Ghibli, Perigueux. They seem to be serious about health testing, and I'm pretty sure neither Shyre not Pergueux dock. I have no personal experience with any of them, however.
> 
> I would also look into Karbit in Texas.



Wow I never thought about that, it will be so easy for me. I found a breeder in NYC and Ohio, but I am worried about the long drive. I was thinking maybe it will be easier to pick up the puppy in Texas instead of the other states because of the long ride and if the puppy will be comfortable with me making so many rest stops. Have you ever heard about Donnchada in Texas as well? I will look into Karbit as well. 

Thank you


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Kunuz said:


> Have you ever heard about Donnchada in Texas as well? I will look into Karbit as well.


Donnchada was recommended by a member in your other thread here Wolfe Island Poodles
They and Karbit are both well known and well thought of not only by PF members but by their peers. Both breeders are also on the Breeder List (organized by location) as they do health testing and have been recommended by PF members thru the years








🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com





It can be confusing when there's more than one thread going on basically the same topic . 
That's why I tried to gather up the important points in one series of questions earlier in this thread:
* You're moving from somewhere to Texas
When is that going to happen?
* You're looking at breeders in your current area and where you're going to be. How large is your search range? Or are you focusing on Texas and that region?
Are you comfortable with your breeder being hundreds of miles away from where you settle if you find one out of your preferred range?


You feel the timing works best to bring the poodle home at the time of the move
You'll be in an apartment/townhouse/condo living situation (immediate neighbors and not likely a private fenced yard)
You're most interested in a standard poodle (closer to low range 20"? or larger?)
You want a calmer, non barky dog, for everyone's sake 
You're aware of and can meet the exercise needs of the poodle, appropriate to age
You're looking for a poodle with undocked tail but may be flexible on that depending on what you learn
You haven't mentioned dewclaws that I remember. How do you feel about those?
You feel health testing is important
You haven't mentioned whether you have savings to cover emergency medical care, or if you plan to get pet health insurance? (this can seriously run into thousands of dollars so be sure you have a plan in place)
What have I missed?


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Am moving from Rhode Island to Texas and declawing is something I am also concerned about. I am looking for breeders in Texas, Ohio, NYC and New Hampshire etc anywhere that’s close to me and won’t be stressful for the puppy when we head to Texas. I was thinking maybe to wait til I get to Texas and just get the puppy from there. I don’t want to stress myself and the puppy. I am looking into health insurance already, I found Pet Insurance and Animal Insurance Plans | Petplan and Pet Insurance for Dogs & Cats - Rated Best Plan 2020 | Healthy Paws I am also opening a savings for just the poodles medical expenses, I plan on putting hundred dollars a week into the account and only use it if he needs emergency healthcare.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Regarding dewclaws, most breeders remove them, just like docking tails. They'd likely be done at the same time as the tail dock. As with tail docking there is discussion over the value of the process and the potential for pain. If done correctly and timely, pain is considered minimal.

If you decide to go with a natural poodle, the only way to get a temperament evaluated pup is to find a breeder who does not dock or remove across the board as temperament can't be properly assessed until the pup is nearing time to go to their new home. The breeder (or their staff) will be assessing all the pups as they grow and some do actual testing, such as the Volhard test:




__





Choosing Your Puppy (PAT) | Volhard Dog Nutrition


Not sure who's the right dog for you? Use the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test in selecting your dog, whether a puppy or an older dog.




www.volharddognutrition.com





Poodles tend to have only the front dewclaws, and some have grown back after removal. The discussion over removal vs keeping has a very practical position on both sides. For keeping them, dewclaws are used by many dogs to hold and grab things. I can attest to that as my two boys have them and I can feel their grip when they wrap paws around my legs. For removing them, doing a search of PF and elsewhere will bring up personal experiences of dewclaws caught on an object and ripped off, causing more pain than the removal.

As for when to get a puppy, if I were choosing for myself on your timeline, my first choices would be to either get the pup at least a few weeks before I move, or to wait til I get to my new location and get somewhat settled in. My last choice would be to pick up a pup on the road and then try to manage the moving in process and a new pup at the same time. I'd want time for the pup and I to start building a relationship before I throw more change and confusion into an uprooted pup's life. I'd also be extra concerned about the pup becoming ill on the road, or even worse things which might happen, (I tend to plan for the worst and hope for the best ).

For recommendations on the brand of insurance, I'm sure some folks have it and will comment. Your plan to build up an emergency fund is excellent. The insurance is least expensive for the first year or so. If you build up two years worth, at the rate you plan on, it might be safe to drop the insurance once you're there but don't stop adding to the savings. I'm extremely lucky to have a low 5 figure amount dedicated for my two boys medical emergencies so I've not carried the insurance.

We have an active member who has spent literally thousands on caring for one of her beloved poodles and several members who have had to give their dog up to a shelter, look at going into thousands of dollars in credit debt, or as reported on my local Nextdoor newsletter today, a neighbor just had their dog euthanized because they couldn't afford the diagnostic procedures, let alone the treatment after being hit by a car. That choice is tragedy upon tragedy.

I'd rather close this post on a happy note but I'll have to settle for realistic.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Regarding dewclaws, most breeders remove them, just like docking tails. They'd likely be done at the same time as the tail dock. As with tail docking there is discussion over the value of the process and the potential for pain. If done correctly and timely, pain is considered minimal.
> 
> If you decide to go with a natural poodle, the only way to get a temperament evaluated pup is to find a breeder who does not dock or remove across the board as temperament can't be properly assessed until the pup is nearing time to go to their new home. The breeder (or their staff) will be assessing all the pups as they grow and some do actual testing, such as the Volhard test:
> 
> ...


Thank you for the feedback, I decided to wait til I get to Texas I don’t want the puppy to be distressed. I am not going with my furniture or clothes, I am selling everything and ordering online 4 days before I get to Texas. The Heath insurance is so important but like you stated saving on the side will be even better, you never know when an emergency can happen. I am trying to see if I can do 150 a week to be on the safe side, I had German shepherds and Rott wielder they were super expensive. One thing I don’t want to do is give up my dog because of medical expenses. I am also torn between a breeder called independence poodles, we Kay and Donnchada. Independence finally emailed me back and was very informative. What stood out to me was in her email she stated every service she offers, declawing, temperament testing, health testing etc. It seems like she fits everything I am looking for in a breeder and she is based in Texas also which is amazing. However, I still don’t know if it’s the right move for me and she will be sending me the contract tomorrow hopefully that works out. 

Thank you for your honesty that is something I need in this journey of mine ❤


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I've only done the briefest of skims on Independence and WeKay, although I'm not familiar with either. They both do something that I appreciate very much and don't understand why every breeder doesn't do the same. When you select the names of their featured adult dogs you are either linked to the testing site for results, which is much preferred so you can verify at the source, or, at least shown a copy so you can ask for access to verify.

I'm not reviewing every dog or looking to see if the full complement of tests are being done. You're definitely able to do that. (ok, Independence made it even easier. If the dogs featured on their site are their full roster of breeding dogs, every one has completed the CHIC testing requirements https://www.ofa.org/about/chic-program and all testing is visible on the OFA site.)

I didn't look for contracts either so when you get closer to making this happen be sure to review the contracts carefully. How much and easily a breeder will stand behind their pups and the new families can be so important.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I've only done the briefest of skims on Independence and WeKay, although I'm not familiar with either. They both do something that I appreciate very much and don't understand why every breeder doesn't do the same. When you select the names of their featured adult dogs you are either linked to the testing site for results, which is much preferred so you can verify at the source, or, at least shown a copy so you can ask for access to verify.
> 
> I'm not reviewing every dog or looking to see if the full complement of tests are being done. You're definitely able to do that. (ok, Independence made it even easier. If the dogs featured on their site are their full roster of breeding dogs, every one has completed the CHIC testing requirements https://www.ofa.org/about/chic-program and all testing is visible on the OFA site.)
> 
> I didn't look for contracts either so when you get closer to making this happen be sure to review the contracts carefully. How much and easily a breeder will stand behind their pups and the new families can be so important.


yes I absolutely agree I like how they showed the results of the testing that is being done and they are very communicative which is a plus for me. I got the contract and it seems good, so I might have to go with Independence. I didn’t get a contract from one of them which raised a flag for me, there is no way they should accept payments from future clients without giving them a contract first.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Kunuz said:


> yes I absolutely agree I like how they showed the results of the testing that is being done and they are very communicative which is a plus for me. I got the contract and it seems good, so I might have to go with Independence. I didn’t get a contract from one of them which raised a flag for me, there is no way they should accept payments from future clients without giving them a contract first.


I didn't get a physical contract from my breeder before I put down a deposit. She just verbally went over what was on it. But mine was super general without any weird clauses. So I think it depends.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> I didn't get a physical contract from my breeder before I put down a deposit. She just verbally went over what was on it. But mine was super general without any weird clauses. So I think it depends.


Okay that’s a relieve, I am so torn between independence and wekay!!!!!!! I have to put down a deposit today and I am so nervous. The more I talk to the breeder from wekay the more I like her, she’s so down to earth and seems so genuine.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

They look like a good breeder. I would probably lean toward Wekay because their dogs seem to do well in conformation and performance which I like. Though Independence seems to be reputable as well. I went with my gut for breeder decision.


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## Kunuz (Sep 15, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> They look like a good breeder. I would probably lean toward Wekay because their dogs seem to do well in conformation and performance which I like. Though Independence seems to be reputable as well. I went with my gut for breeder decision.


I think am just going to go with my gut feeling, wekay unfortunately doesn’t know if they will have a pup around July so that sucks 😭😭😭😭😭


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