# The "Crate-Training Chronicles" of Dude & Daisy



## Milo :) (Mar 10, 2013)

So excited for this new chapter in Dude's life. I have a great feeling about this.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

New Thread is a great ideal. I will check in often. GO DUDE!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

*husband came home early, the "alcatraz" crate is assembled and both of my young children fit in there very comfortably.... :flute:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> *husband came home early, the "alcatraz" crate is assembled and *both of my young children fit in there very comfortably..*.. :flute:


hone:I am calling the child welfare authorities right now!:laugh: Dude will probably be enticed by the scent of his beloved human siblings in his new crate. Nice "housewarming" gift of sorts!


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

I have been rather busy lately and missed most of the saga of Dude. He seems such a special guy. I hope, pray wish everything turns out well for him. I will be following from now on. You pf people are fantastic with your support.


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

Puppy prayers for everyone..Dude you are a very loved and lucky fellow!!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I have a good feeling about this.  My poodles are always crated when we leave. They are safe and calm in their crates. They kind of zone out in there..hibernate. We never leave them for hours and hours, but I have left them up to about 4 hours on occasion and they are always fine. I just say 'crate' and they run in. They also sleep in them at night and are in and out of them all day on their own (door left open). They love their crates. I am posting this to give you hope. I am thinking good thoughts for dude! Habits are hard to break in an older guy, but it can be done.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Sending you best wishes and positive thoughts. I had a "Dude" in my life. He was a Bichon who turned out to be the most amazing Bichon I have ever loved. At some point in my frustration with living with him I realized that he was meant to be my teacher. When I changed my outlook I saw him for the remarkable soul that he was. He was with us until he was 16. Of all my dogs I miss him the most.

Please give Dude a hug for me.

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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

kukukachoo said:


> *husband came home early, the "alcatraz" crate is assembled and both of my young children fit in there very comfortably.... :flute:


This made me laugh. Well, because I am sure we are all "those" kind of poodle people on this forum, I will admit this here. When we brought Lexi home and for the first two-three nights, when she really wasn't all that crazy about her crate, dh would lay half in her crate with her while she was in it and give her puppy massages and talk soft to her. What is even funnier about me writing this here is just last night when we were reminiscing, he asked me if I had ever told anyone about that. I assured him I had not. Hope he never asks again.  Here is to looking forward to good things with Dude's new crate!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I too have a good feeling! And the kids in the crate...my Grandson just got out of the crate having had a love fest with my male Whippet in there!


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## plr (Oct 20, 2012)

Sending good vibes and thanks for starting this thread. Looking forward to following Dude's and Daisy's progress.


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## Toy poodlelvr (Mar 24, 2013)

Gooooooo DUDE!!! You can do this!!!


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## lfalz (May 10, 2013)

I do not know you. I do not know you Doozys. But I gotta tell ya. I love who you are. I love how you love your dogs.






thank you!!!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

AND so I wait with bated breathe for the next series of the "Dude & Daisy" saga.............."Dude and Daisy Sentenced To A Better Way"
Scene 2 Act 1? :director:

From
A LOYAL FAN,
:love2:
to
Dude & Daisy
!!!!!!!

XOXOXO


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Yea congrats the crate is set up & ready to go!!! Has he ventured near it at all or been into on his own accord?? Sooo looking forward to reading the next chapter about Dude!!! 


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

DAY TWO:

I had this big, long, play-by-play narrative of today written TWICE and my iPad has wiped them out when I've toggled between tabs.  I'm sorry, but I'm gonna just let the pictures speak for themselves at this point! 




















This last photo (below) is taken from my foyer (yeah, we have windows IN our weird house). That gate is where they had started jumping over and down the basement steps! See how they just drop off into the oblivion on the other side?!?! Scary, right? Anyway, the crates are in the little sunroom off of our living room. Daisy's is on the left in that photo but it is covered with a yellow blanket. There just was no where to put them IN the den but this room is essentially part of it so its all good- still right in the action!

Its also our kids' playroom which we have been slowly transitioning to the basement. They are just now getting to the ages where they can go down and play by themselves. So, we spent today moving more things out of there to accommodate the new petting zoo! 

Long story short, the Doozys have been in and out of their crates all day as we cleaned in there. They have even spent time with the doors closed! They slept and showed no signs of being aggravated or agitated. It was AWESOME! I didn't intend to even try that today but Daisy went in hers all by herself so then I just told Dude to get in-and he did! He is used to me telling him "Up" & "In" both to jump in the back of our van and to get up in the tub at the doggy-wash so he just climbed right in when I asked him.  They received lots of treats and praise each time they went in, of course.

So, we'll probably stick with just giving them crate time while we are home for a while and then work on gradually extending the amounts of time we are out of their sight. I hope they continue to be so agreeable! YAY! I couldn't have asked for a better beginning!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

one more pic 

this shows how the room is situated off the den. its our hideous rainbow room, but hey- its functional!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Hooray! Great news! Dude actually looks pretty relaxed in there!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

I am thrilled to hear that this far things have been going smooth!!! Totally awesome to see Dude relaxed in the crate - door closed - and you obviously nearby (to take the pic) & him being OK!!!

Good feelings about this!!! When is the behaviorist/trainer coming?

Looking forward to the much anticipated updates!!!! 

**TeamDude&Daisy**


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

First, I extend my sympathies on the iPad consuming your posts. Mine does, too, especially if I'm using my bluetooth keybroad instead of the iPad's.

Congrats on getting the mondo-crate set up and in business. I think you're going about things well. I do recommend the Crate Games DVD, as others have said, as it sets the dog up with a great foundation of loving the crate. Another thing you're doing absolutely right is letting the dogs be in the crates during the day while you're there with them.

Sugarfoot's crate sits right there in the living room. He loves his crate and will often go in it by choice just to lie down and relax, and he goes in it automatically when we eat (because I established a habit of, while eating, getting up and bringing him a small tidbit. A dog not in his crate receives no tidbits). He goes to his crate when told "kennel up." Once he knocked a whole container of needles to the floor, and I said, "Go lie down, boy," and he darted into his crate and did so, allowing me to pick the needles out of the carpet with him safely out of the way. (This was very impressive, because usually when something from the table hits the floor, he's allowed to pick it up and give it back to me.) He even *prefers* to spend the night in his crate rather than in the much larger laundry room where we used to let him spend the night. (We established his preference because when we'd say, "Go to bed," and go to the laudrey room, Sugar would run to his crate and lie down decisively.)

I say all this not to brag on Sugarfoot (well, not *just* to brag on Sugarfoot...) but to assure you that you're on the right track, and that dogs with their denning instrict can, with the proper foundation and patience, accept and even love their crates. I think that Dude will settle to his crate even more when he realizes that it is inescapable AND a safe place for him. Just keep making it a good place for him, where good things happen.

Good luck!

--Q


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

the local behaviorist did call me back friday but i missed her call. i will try to reach her again tomorrow!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> the local behaviorist did call me back friday but i missed her call. i will try to reach her again tomorrow!


Sounds like you are determined to make this work & undoubtably off to an awesome start!!!!!!!!!!!! 

Gotta admit it did touch me to see Dude in his crate - looking at ease! Looking more & more like a brighter future is in store for ALL of you!!!!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

So happy to see Dude and Daisy surpassing crate expectations from the start! :thumb: It's absolutely fantastic and I hope a sign of the success to follow. I crate train my puppies and they grow up to use the crate by choice. Chagall's is in the kitchen with the door held open with a carabiner. He goes into it throughout the day as he wishes for a snooze, and to supervisor me while I cook. (It comes in very handy to keep him safe and out of the way whenever we have workmen in the house.) He has free run of our home and sleeps in our bed, but you can just about see the cartoon bubble above his head reading, "There's no place like crate!" I hope Dude and Daisy both grow to feel the same, things look promising! When you reach the point where you can leave them home alone in their crates, you might want to leave the TV or radio on for them for background noise. I have always found that helpful.

Your two really do look like candidates for Susan Garrett's crate games at some point. As I mentioned in your other thread, the games are great fun, great training and great for exercise when the weather outside is crummy. Here's a link for you to see the fun. 
Crate Games - YouTube

I can't wait to hear what the dog behaviorist has to say. But for now, I just want to say *"Yay!"* for you for all you're doing!! I was just thinking how much fun it would be to keep a webcam on Dude...


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## Toy poodlelvr (Mar 24, 2013)

No advice.... But... Goooo DUDE!!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Hmmmm, webcam. You know I have an iPad and I believe there's an app for that! I just may need to set something up. I'll look into that.

It is too early for the "Day Three" update, but I needed to go ahead and post to let you all know that my living room isn't as bright green as the flash made it appear in my pictures! Eeeek! LOL! 

Have a great day everyone!


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## Laceypoo (Aug 23, 2011)

Go Dude! We are all rooting for Team Doozey!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Great job Dude ,Daisy and Mom!!! The pictures say it all...Dude is really smart ! He is eager to learn . I play training games with my dogs. They are a lot of fun. The kids can learn to play them with the pups,too. 

I can't wait for the next entry!

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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

DAY THREE:

Hi there! Well, not a whole lot to report today as I was gone from 8:30-5:30 and my husband left at 1:00. Our nanny was here with the kids from 1:00 until I got home so not much crate play happening today.

I just gave the dogs treats and put them in their crates, though. They went in willingly to get them and I closed the door behind them. Daisy is scratching at the door, though.

Its only been a minute, I guess I have to wait until she stops before I let her out so she doesn't learn to do that, right?

Dude just laid down and is totally fine (thank you, pharmacy LOL!)


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

She stopped  She only did it like three times. I guess that's OK?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

congratulations! sounds like all is going well. does dude act completely zonked because of the meds, or is he okay but just not hyper? someone once told me years ago that more tranquilizers were sold in france than anywhere else and that was because the french regularly medicated their dogs so they could take them everywhere. i know i went on a boat ride once and there was a couple with their dog. and many many years ago my friends were able to take their oes into a restaurant in paris where everyone proceeded to admire him and take note of how big his paws were! (he was an american oes and not medicated.) hmm. my usual roundabout way of getting to the point: how long will the vet prescribe these meds?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Good they both got into their crates so willingly! And right you are; nobody gets out of their crate until they're quiet and calm. Sounds like Daisy settled down pretty quickly, and Dude was feeling very relaxed. I know you'll keep a close eye on him to make certain the medication doesn't have any unwanted side-effects. So far so good though, keep it at it!:clover:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

i actually haven't noticed any difference in his behavior aside from when i put them out to pee. he had started trying to chew the deck when i put them out and he hasn't done that since being on the meds. he's just always laid back- like "hey man, what's up duuuuude?" :hat: LOL. (well, that is, until we're gone then he turns into Destructo-Dog!" i'm just guessing that that he would not be so agreeable to the crate without them!

the vet and i both regard them as temporary and only to be used in conjunction with behavior modification. the script was only for two weeks to allow me time to evaluate their effectiveness.

i called back the local trainer today and had to leave a voicemail. i hope we will catch each other soon.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

Glad to hear the great updates! I have to say I am a bit jealous of the blue color on Dude's new crate!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> She stopped  She only did it like three times. I guess that's OK?


Absolutely ok - she didn't cry wine or throw a temper tantrum... It's new for you & new for her... 

As for Dude - who knows... I'm not sure the meds are working to their full potential just yet...although yes they are playing a role in it. Who knows maybe a home of his very own is the solace that he needed.... ?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Its killing me right now- I'm at gymnastics with my daughter and the dogs are home unattended & uncrated. I dont want to crate them and leave them yet so I just have to hope no harm or damage is done while they are free. (Plus, hubby will be getting home before me so if there is an issue he will be the on to find it.) :afraid:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

......and I jinxed myself. Husband just called me- Daisy peed in the living room. He is not very happy and says dogs go in crate when we leave from now on. No more slow intro...


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Just curious. How does he know it was Daisy who peed? We're the dogs separated?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

well, just because it was in the middle of the floor and not on the side of a couch or anything. dude still hikes his leg and pees on vertical surfaces.


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

*Training Speed & Motivation*

It's okay to "speed" things up so long as you do it with intent. I think most people mean, give up and just jump in sink or swim style when they talk about going fast, especially with critical life behaviors like a crate.

The best speed stays at the dogs pace and Dude seems ready to go faster. Since Daisy didn't sound like a Houdini from the previous thread, consider just using your previous safe room type confinement vs. her crate if she isn't really loving it. BUT, it sounds like they are taking to it to me. 

So the best way to speed up the training with intent is to actually speed up the training. super fast rate of reward and very short training sessions for as long as you have before the first husband mandated crating.

I'll try to google an article for you in a minute, but want to give you a hope message first...

I used to have a toy poodle who despised all crates. As soon as she was inside it with the door closed she would pee and poop herself NO MATTER how I controlled her food intake and bowel movements. It was like she saved it up just to get it all over herself, the crate, the bars of the crate, sooooo awful.

This was when I was doing only lure and catch style training, not behavior shaping. I did all the basics, feeding her only in her crate, keeping it with us at all times, putting scent items inside it. Immediate pee and poop every single time. Even if I put her into a fresh second crate after she soiled the first she would somehow find a way to make a mess again.

I gave up and re-homed this little, not my choice the neighbor died, rescue girl with my grandmother. They were a match in heaven and that dog never needed to see a crate again because she had someone 24/7 with her. Then my grandmother passed and I inherited Bella. 

I waited as long as I could to start crate training again because I truly hated to even attempt it and we were in a house with a safe yard for a Tpoo and a doggy door, so it wasn't as critical as it had been years earlier. But I still really believe that dogs need to like crates - for when they go to the groomer, the doctor, have unexpected air travel, etc.

Bella was my first clicker training experience. The way using shaping vs. luring engaged her brain was unF**ing believable. That little dog was throwing her little body into that crate and backing up further and further into it by the end of her first 10 minute session. By the end of the weekend she was sitting inside with the door closed for 30 mins at a time. 

Till the end of her life Bella adored that stinking crate and would joyfully take toys away from the big dogs to go enjoy them in her hidey hole. Seriously, it can be like night and day fast, you just have to work with the dog and believe in the process.

FWIW, luring is throwing treats into the crate or leading the dog to the crate with a treat and then treating in the crate while shaping is slowly rewarding the dog for each independent choice it makes towards the desired behavior.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Terrific advice and post from *Ciscley*! :thumb: You might consider using belly bands/wraps until you can get the house soiling issue resolved. It could give your dh instant peace of mind and a dry "welcome home." They're available at petstores and on-line. The Official BellyBands.net Website!! I know your household is under stress, and it must feel like the clock is ticking, but things can get better! Please keep turning to us for ideas and support.:clover:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Thank you, friends. Hubby wasn't as agitated when I got home as I was expecting, thank goodness. He knows I'm trying. I do think, however, I am going to need to fast track the crate usage to keep the peace.

We have gymnastics again tomorrow night so it will be the big test. They will have to be crated from 3:30-6:30.

Thank goodness the crates are here as an option.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Good Luck tomorrow night........let us know how they did!!!!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

They will be fine in the crates for 3 hours. During all of my years in rescue every dog whether crate trained or not spent every night in a crate from day one. They are so much better off there where they can't get into trouble. You have gotten some great advice from forum members. Tomorrow put something wonderful in the crate with them, calmly tell you will see them later,and walk out the door. Go enjoy watching your kids . 

I can't wait to hear how great you all did!

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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

One item to try versus a treat (which I am assuming is some sort of dog biscuit that you are using) it a stuffed kong. A biscuit treat lasts oooh maybe a minute if that. If you have a stuffed kong it takes a while to lick out the peanut butter & get to the goodies! Below is a picture of a stuffed kong









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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> i actually haven't noticed any difference in his behavior aside from when i put them out to pee. he had started trying to chew the deck when i put them out and he hasn't done that since being on the meds. he's just always laid back- like "hey man, what's up duuuuude?" :hat: LOL. (well, that is, until we're gone then he turns into Destructo-Dog!" i'm just guessing that that he would not be so agreeable to the crate without them!
> 
> the vet and i both regard them as temporary and only to be used in conjunction with behavior modification. the script was only for two weeks to allow me time to evaluate their effectiveness.
> 
> i called back the local trainer today and had to leave a voicemail. i hope we will catch each other soon.


Glad to hear though that Dude didnt try to chew the deck....that's a huge positive sign! Stuff like that DH needs to see as well / be aware of!!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

HI! Sorry for the late update. Soooooooo.....I chickened out last night. I didn't crate them when I took my daughter to gymnastics. Instead, I took them with us. LOL.

BUT- my husband is off today and had errands to run and they were to be crated from 9:30 until, oh, about right now. I'm at work so not sure yet how that's all going.

Love the idea for a treat that lasts longer than 5 seconds.

Any ideas for the "glue" besides peanut butter? My son is allergic.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> HI! Sorry for the late update. Soooooooo.....I chickened out last night. I didn't crate them when I tool my daughter to gymnastics. Instead, I took them with us. LOL.
> 
> BUT- my husband is off today and had errands to run and they were to be crated from 9:30 until, oh, about right now. I'm at work so not sure yet how that's all going.
> 
> ...


*I gotta add that the Kong diagram cracked me up. At first glance i thought it was some anatomical diagram and that I was going to have to somehow understand dog-bowel anatomy for crate-training!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

When you hear from DH - please post!!!

In lieu of peanut butter I would try cream cheese... Also if you go to PetSmart or whatever big box pet store - KONG sells their own products to stuff the KONG toy itself with... Hopefully the link I paste below to show you some stuff will work:

Petsmart.com

Trust me when I first heard of stuffing a KONG - I never thought it was soo intense to do or looked anything remotely like that...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Kong recipes galore here!
Recipes - KONG

I use non-fat Greek yogurt, mashed bananas, frozen whipped sweet potatoes and canned pumpkin as "the glue." I add in bits of chicken or veggies or blueberries. But there are many more inventive "Kong cooks" out there!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Aww, you guys, they did totally fine! I'm so relieved I could cry! :bawling:

Or dance! :dance2:

Finally, we may have peace in the home eace:

You guys are the best :adore:

CHEERS! :beerclank:


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Thrilled to hear your good news!!*


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Thank you, Cabryn! Your super-sized post made me smile.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

pandj said:


> They will be fine in the crates for 3 hours. During all of my years in rescue every dog whether crate trained or not spent every night in a crate from day one. They are so much better off there where they can't get into trouble. You have gotten some great advice from forum members. Tomorrow put something wonderful in the crate with them, calmly tell you will see them later,and walk out the door. Go enjoy watching your kids .
> 
> I can't wait to hear how great you all did!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think I may start crating them at night as well. It will give them a regular, relaxing time to be in there when we are home. I will probably miss them settling into our room with us every night as is our current routine, but I think it will make them understand its their den much faster. Ya' think?


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Can you see me doing the HAPPY DANCE ??? I KNEW YOU COULD DO IT!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

kukukachoo said:


> I think I* may start crating them at night* as well. It will give them a regular, relaxing time to be in there when we are home. I will probably miss them settling into our room with us every night as is our current routine, but I think it will make them understand its their den much faster. Ya' think?


That's what I'd try!  It just might be that Dude in particular feels more at ease when he has a "den," kinda playing into his canine instincts and allowing him to feel calm and settle. And less prone to frantic destructive/escapist behaviors. Wouldn't it be great if that were the case and he could "den" happily ever after as necessary!


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## plr (Oct 20, 2012)

:dancing: :cheers2: YAY!!!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

:cheers2::dancing::angel: *AWESOME NEWS!!!!!!* :cheers2::dancing::angel:

Soo glad to hear that this is working out better than expected!!! Keep in mind though while that *YES THIS IS A VICTORY!* Dude will only be on medication for a short while longer... definitely need to work on behavior modification.... Athough I am not sure why the vet is only doing a short time run with the medication... Numerous dogs take puppy prozac (or the like) on a daily basis - long term...furthermore - the vet should know that you cannot rehabilitate a dog in two weeks. I assum Dude goes back to the vet in 2 weeks? If so I would discuss a longer course of treatment...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

*yahoooooooo!!!!

Awesome progress!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Yahoo !!! I knew that team Dude and Daisy could do it !!!
I would not crate them at night if they are behaving . Crating too much can cause problems too. Dogs are pack animals and it is very natural for them to sleep with their pack. Being crated at night and while you are working is too much crate time . 

You are doing Great!!! Hopefully by the time the Dude goes back to the vet the crate may a habit and he may not need to be on meds.

Can't wait for tomorrow's report...

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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*pandj* does make a good point. Too much crate time can indeed be problematic. But I don't necessarily see crating at night as being an issue. I have had success following a night-time crating routine for my dogs until they're trusthworthy with both house habits and only chewing things that are theirs. A fair number of people I know continue to crate their adult doors throughout their lives. I choose not to do that. Like all aspects of living with dogs, different strokes for different folks. 

Crate Training: The Benefits for You and Your Dog
How much time in the crate is okay?
No dog, young or old, should be living in a crate full-time. Dogs are social animals, so for a dog to have a good quality of life, social isolation should be kept to a minimum. All dogs need daily exercise and some interaction with others. Even four hours in a crate without a break during the day is a long time for many adult dogs, so we don’t recommend that you crate your dog if you’re gone all day. Except for nighttime, crating a dog for long periods of time is not acceptable.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

:dancing2::dancing2::dancing2::dancing2::dancing2:

I'm SSSSSOOOOO Happy for YA!


Can I uncross at least my toes?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

thanks for sharing my enthusiasm, guys! so, i won't start night crating then. i'll think on it some more. i was considering it thinking it would help them love their den; they are no problem to have uncrated at night. mine and my husband's schedules vary and we also have a part-time nanny so that means there are never, ever 8 hour work days where the dogs would be crated. on a typical week, 3-4 hours is likely the very longest they would be crated in a day and that wouldn't be every day.

i'll just hold off on that for now.

i think the vet prescribed only two weeks so we could evaluate effectiveness. he said he could increase dosage, if needed. 

so, i am going to try the local behaviorist again tomorrow and if no luck catching her- start considering other options. she's returned my call once but didn't return my second message yet. :/


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

kukukachoo said:


> I think I may start crating them at night as well. It will give them a regular, relaxing time to be in there when we are home. I will probably miss them settling into our room with us every night as is our current routine, but I think it will make them understand its their den much faster. Ya' think?


I think I'd let them continue sleeping in your room so long as Dude is not destructive at night. If it ain't broke.... But I'm no expert on this--that's just my gut reaction. Did you ever manage to connect with the behaviorist? Maybe she (or he?) would have some advice about that.

Great to hear all your good news! :smile:

PS Looks like I missed about a page of comments when I wrote this, including all the recommendations to not crate at night and your comment about trying to reach the behaviorist. Not sure how I did that. :stupid: I shouldn't be writing things in the middle of the night. LOL


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

What excellent news! I've been following along but don't crate train myself so have not had much to offer. It does sound as if the combination of medication and introducing the crate as a Good Thing is really working. Research shows that behavioural change in humans takes a minimum of three weeks to really begin to stick (by which time we've usually given up!) so in your place I would make a plan to work on making the crate the best place ever over the next couple of months. That way there is a solid base of good experiences for Dude to fall back on when the time comes to consider tailing off the drugs.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Another option with the behaviorist is to "drop in" their class schedule is listed online with the location. Try to "accidentally" stop by about 30 minutes beforehand. That way if the trainers are there - no classmates will be there yet.

On the flipside are there other options nearby for trainers / behaviorists in the area?


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

NYNIC715 said:


> Another option with the behaviorist is to "drop in" their class schedule is listed online with the location. Try to "accidentally" stop by about 30 minutes beforehand. That way if the trainers are there - no classmates will be there yet.
> 
> On the flipside are there other options nearby for trainers / behaviorists in the area?
> 
> ...


She did call back today- missed her again as we were swimming. She suggested emailing her so I will this evening. The Doozys spent a few hours in their crates again today with no problem!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Excellent!!! Success leads to more success. Keep up the great work !

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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

:wavey: *kukukachoo*! Just want to wish you a 'crate' week end! The Doozys sound like they are natural born craters, they did _so well _week #1! Hoping for an encore week #2, and that you can connect with the behaviorist.:clover:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Good Morning, PF friends! It's a lazy Saturday morning at my house so I finally have some time to give a fuller update as well as ask a few questions.

So, the Doozys have been crated now at least 5 times in our absence. They have been totally fine! I cannot even begin to explain how refreshing it is to be able to walk out of my house without going through a 10 minute routine of "battening down the hatches." We had come to the point where we were having to make sure nothing was on the floors or counters that had any plastic or resemblance of a food container, shut all bedroom and bathrooms doors (so Dude wouldn't get himself accidentally shut in and chew THROUGH any more doors), carry our heavy stainless, kitchen trash can to our BEDROOM, pick up toys that looked tempting to chew, put the kids plastic chairs from their table on our couch and love seat to keep Dude from getting on it (its leather and he's too heavy and will damage it- other wise I wouldn't mind him on the couch), put a big beanbag on the leather chair, blah blah blah. Sounds stressful doesn't it? Well, it was! Add to that routine, two young kids who we also are simultaneously telling to, "Get your shoes", "Brush your teeth", "Put that toy back- I just put it away!" and it's added up to pure chaos. In fact, it was so much chaos that often a step would get missed and I would get to the end of the driveway, or end of the road (or furthur) and go, "Crap! I forgot the trashcan!" and then have to turn around to complete damage-control! :doh:

So, yeah, crating the dogs and walking out the door is like a dream come true! Hubby and I have gone from :fencing:to :five: LOL! 

Anyhoo- I put a bed in Dude's crate because the floor of his crate is...what's the term?...._grated_, I guess you call it? I want him to be comfy, but I was afraid he would destruct the bed. However, he has not messed with it a bit! I'm going to add a blanket to Daisy's now since she has proven to be doing well also. 

They get sooooo excited when I let them out of their crates upon arrival home. I've read that with separation anxiety, departures and arrivals should not be fussed over. With that in mind, I haven't been making much to-do over them when I let them out and instead just saying, "Good Boy" and "Good Girl" with a quick rub and then I move on. Inside my mind, though, I am really wanting to go on and on about how good they've been in their crate and reciprocate their excitement to see me! I should not, right? That's my first question.

My second question is about treats in the crate. I have some bully sticks in my cart at bestbullysticks.com. Is it OK to leave them crated alone with those? I am less worried about them choking than I am about them accidentally pushing it outside their crates and then freaking out trying to reach it. Especially Dude since the bars on his crate are much further apart and leave plenty of room for a treat to escape.

Finally, I have a potty question. Both dogs are on a pretty regular poop routine so I don't need to worry about that, but do I need to consider how long before crating they have access to water? Or is it of no concern as long as they are not crated more than 3-4 hours?

Thanks and have a great weekend!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> :wavey: *kukukachoo*! Just want to wish you a 'crate' week end! The Doozys sound like they are natural born craters, they did _so well _week #1! Hoping for an encore week #2, and that you can connect with the behaviorist.:clover:



LOL! A crate weekend...that's PAWSOME!


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> She did call back today- missed her again as we were swimming. She suggested emailing her so I will this evening. The Doozys spent a few hours in their crates again today with no problem!




Awesome - talk a out the doozys make progress in leaps & bounds with the crate!!!! Soooooooo happy to hear these updates! This is probably better than any book I have read lately!!! 


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

In response to question 1 - you are absolutely right - DO NOT make a fuss when you let them out. Furthermore of they are howling to be let out do not let them out! They need to be calm/quiet or else the associate the whining barking with "I'm getting out" not what you want. 

As for bully sticks - I am not sure - I never leave a dog unattended with a chew due to a choking hazard risk.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

What _FABULOUS_ news! Love hearing about the chaos of your previous departure routine compared to being able to calmly walk out the door! And nothing put a smile on my face as much as this:



kukukachoo said:


> Hubby and I have gone from :fencing:to :five: LOL!


Congratulations!!!!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

peppersb said:


> What _FABULOUS_ news! Love hearing about the chaos of your previous departure routine compared to being able to calmly walk out the door! And nothing put a smile on my face as much as this:
> 
> 
> 
> Congratulations!!!!


it seriously is a major improvement considering we usually had to go through this routine mulitple times a day. 

another wonderful update for today: dude got in his crate just to chill out today all by himself. he stayed in there for about 20 minutes just hanging out. he's just amazing me.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I needed to read this after the last few days I have had. It made me so happy. Thanks for trying the crate. You are the best.

Also, with Carley being sick and me having to keep the beast (Stella) away from her, I was so happy to have my first and only crate. I put a blanket over it, something I learned from this thread and make my girls take turns in it. Neither seems to mind, since I moved it from my office to the bedroom. My sister tried to convince me for years that every dog should be crate trained... I hate to say it, but once again, she was right. lol


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

It is amazing how natural it seems to be for the dogs. I'm smacking my head for not trying it sooner! I hope today comes with much improvement for sweet Carley. :hug:


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## Rhett'smom (Sep 23, 2012)

With 2 poodles of very different sizes crates are the best! Even if the little guy dies not agree.. I am so glad that things are going well for you and the Doozys. Everyone at my house is doing happy dances for you and all of yours!!! 


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> My sister tried to convince me for years that every dog should be crate trained... I hate to say it, but once again, she was right. lol


I very much agree with your sister! Having a crate-trained dog can come in _extremely_ handy, for a whole lot more than housetraining. When a dog has to be on enforced rest due to injury or a medical issue; or kept separate from another dog or out of the way of some household activity; when you have to secure a dog amid chaos (friends of ours who were evacuated during Super Storm Sandy in the pitch dark were able to safely crate and transport their two Corgis); for dogs who go to a groomer's, and for travel safety--the _first thing _I do in any hotel room is set up Chagall's crate. (Then I read the room-service menu.)

It's fantastic that you, in consultation with your sister, were such a driving force behind getting Dude a crate and to begin training him to use it. I thank you both for it!! And isn't *kukucahoo* just the poster woman for crate training now?! Things are looking so good! Hopefully the crate will keep Dude safe in the home where he belongs, and others will see how useful it can be to crate.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

WOW! Everybody makes a crate sound so great a place to relax and chill, maybe I'll buy one for myself........Molly's is a 'no share' zone..........I wonder what would be a human equivalent? Hahaha!!!

What great Sunday morning news!!!!! I started my day with this post and it made me soooo happy to hear what great progress Dude & Daisy have made!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I hate to admit it, but even though ALL of my dogs have been crate trained and ALL of my fosters as well, I never crate trained Misha. She has an expen in the kitchen with a bed and piddle pads and water bowl, but is VERY rarely put in it. Usually only when she has been sick and I wanted to avoid vomit all over the house. So a few weeks ago, my daughter informed me that Misha was vomiting almost every night (Misha slept with my 27 year old daughter, after all, Misha is supposed to be HER dog)  So I got the crate out of the back of the garage and set it up in my room and put Misha in there. She made one peep, I told her "NO, go to sleep" and that was it. She has never complained again and will sleep in there all night.

Since we figured out the vomiting has to do with her liver, and we have switched to a low protein food, she has not vomited


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am so glad that you and the gang had such a great week !!! As for leaving bully sticks with them I don't think that I would. Freeze a couple of stuffed Kings or give them some frozen veggies . Once you are gone a few minutes they go to sleep. 

Keep goings and comings very matter of fact. Never reward in any way behavior that you do not want. As soon as you let them out of the crates take them outside. Dogs love routine and as soon as you establish a routine they will be way ahead of you.

I am looking forward to hearing your successes next week!

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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

MollyMuiMa said:


> WOW! Everybody makes a crate sound so great a place to relax and chill, maybe I'll buy one for myself........Molly's is a 'no share' zone..........I wonder what would be a human equivalent? Hahaha!!!




As you can see, the husband is very comfortable in his crate. He usually falls right asleep.

:angel:

--Q


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Quossum said:


> As you can see, the husband is very comfortable in his crate. He usually falls right asleep.
> 
> :angel:
> 
> --Q


Awww, he looks great in green.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

That is hilarious!!! 

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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

He looks very comfortable but is missing a snuggly to keep him company.


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

*All praise the crate!!*

*Quossom* that is hilarious. :rofl: 

*MollyMiuMa* I don't know about everyone, but my human equivalent is a nice deep bath tub with hot water, a good book and a glass of wine. Happy solitude personified.

*Carley's Mom *and *Kukukachoo* So glad you're benefiting from the fabulousness that is the dog den instinct. If I accidentally forget and leave the door closed on the largest crate we have (36 x 48inches), my Danno will squeeze himself into the smaller standard size crate that we use with puppies (22 x 30, I think). He just finds the confinement so comforting.

As a spin off from talking about how hot it's been getting in places outside, for anyone worrying about their dogs getting overheated in a crate, especially if you like to drape a blanket over like we do during storms or with younger dogs, putting an appropriate sized Cool Bed (one of those water filled beds) on top of the plastic solid bottom is a great combo.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Well, it's funny. I started this thread thinking it would be weeks of training before I felt comfortable leaving the dogs at home in their crates and that I would have all these ups and downs and challenges to discuss here. I hate say it, but Daisy peeing in the house and forcing us to speed up the process has ended up being a good thing because they adapted so well and saved us any further bad days!

Anyway, I just saw the attached photo on Facebook and had to come here to share. Thank goodness for those crates or else this could have been me! My husband doesn't know how lucky he is. LOL.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

My two are crated at night - and anytime we leave the house. They cannot be trusted. They are the destructive duo. Lol. 


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

kukukachoo said:


> Well, it's funny. I started this thread thinking it would be weeks of training before I felt comfortable leaving the dogs at home in their crates and that I would have all these ups and downs and challenges to discuss here. I hate say it, but Daisy peeing in the house and forcing us to speed up the process has ended up being a good thing because they adapted so well and saved us any further bad days!
> 
> Anyway, I just saw the attached photo on Facebook and had to come here to share. Thank goodness for those crates or else this could have been me! My husband doesn't know how lucky he is. LOL.


How is Dude doing outside though? Is he still trying to chew anything when outside? 


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

No, thank goodness. He only did that for those few days and then he hasn't done it again since starting the meds. He was chewing through the gate at the top of the deck steps and I did end up shifting all of my potted plants in front of that gate. Maybe it is time to move them and test him out with no barriers there and see what he does?


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## Pennysmama (Apr 23, 2013)

So happy to hear all about you success with the crate.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I wouldn't rock the boat just yet...is it a problem to leave things as they are for another week? Everyone is on the same page now and I hate to see a setback . 

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## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

oops wrong post sorry!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Hi! 

gosh, i've really failed to update in a while...i apologize! i did have a little set back with dude, i'm sorry to report. its my fault, though. i was feeling so confident after almost 2 weeks of him completely accepting his crate and beginning to go in willingly without even having to bait with a treat, that i quite medicating.

not only did i quit medicating, but i did so on a day that a thunderstorm rolled through in our absence. i came home to find that he had peed in his crate (and he has NEVER peed in the house) and there was evidence of him biting the crate. 

it didn't appear that he had tried biting for long as the number of scratches was few. i was also fortunate that this awesome crate has a "catch pan" under neath for messes. somehow, he pushed his bed to one side, peed on the other side and managed to only get a small amount on the tile floor and none on himself or his bed.

i felt horrible when i came home to find this. daisy was absolutely fine. in fact, she has been getting up in the middle of the night and going out to sleep the majority of the night in her crate all on her own accord!

anyway, back to dude. the good news is that the very next time i asked him to get in his crate, he hopped right in- tail wagging. his bad experience during the storm does not seemed to have changed his opinion of the crate which is a huge relief!

i must apologize to everyone invested in dude right now for taking so long to finally email the local trainer once my phone calls proved to be unsuccessful in making contact. my husband and i took a week off work for a summer "staycation" (meaning it wasn't in the budget this year to go anywhere so we stuck around town and did some things around the house and some day outings with the kids and dogs.) so, that's my excuse for not making any progress on that front during this past week....i was on staycation! 

i'm emailing her again as soon as i finish this post as we obviously still need to work on the storm anxiety. there are some other behaviors that i plan to address while i have her "in my hands" so i really do look forward to getting her involved.

hope you guys are all having a great summer. more updates to follow as they come! oh, and hey- how 'bout those grooms in my new avatar? not the best photo of my pair, dude is a looking a little "green", don't you think? :aetsch:


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

did someone else have this as their avatar? now, i'm beginning to think i've seen this here before?


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

Kuku I have been meaning to write but was on vacation & this week at work has been hell...so much for vacation! Lol - will write later today! Off to the
Dr now!!!

PS you should never just stop that type of medication usually a dog needs to be tritated (sp?) off of it... 

Any news on the trainer? 


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Thank you for the update! How about some pictures of everybody.......????


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

NYNIC715 said:


> You should never just stop that type of medication usually a dog needs to be tritated (sp?) off of it...


Just to reiterate NYNIC715's point, some anti-anxiety meds can actually cause significantly worse anxiety symptoms when a dosage is skipped. Think suicidal impulses in humans who had none before taking anti-anxiety meds. Not saying that's what happened in Dude's case; hopefully the vet would have told you if this med had side effects from missed doses.

But consider that the meds alter his mental state in a positive way and give a buffer to stress. Then you take away the buffer but add the stress back - the stress will *seem* even more stressful than normal because your definition of norm has changed. Kinda like sticking your hand in lukewarm water after having it in cold water. Lukewarm starts to feel really hot.

Ditto the request for photos and thanks for the update. This is one of those happy threads that made me start actively participating on PF.


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

KuKu, Chanter and I are hoping all is going well for you and Dude!!


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

kuku, I did a thread on it.


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## NYNIC715 (Oct 15, 2012)

How is Dude doing??? I am hoping since there have not been updates that means that he is doing fantastic?!!!?! 


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

GREETINGS FROM MY 3 CURLY-LOCKS!!! 









I must apologize for taking sooooo long to update everyone. It's been an incredibly busy time. While things overall have come a loooooooong way from where we began, we are still working through one final issue with Dude.

So, both dogs are quite happy with their crates. They go in willingly as soon as we say, "crate" and reach for the treats. So, thank goodness, there seems to be no negative associations for them. We have slowly extended the amounts of time that we leave them in there and backed off medicating Dude. It has been a huge relief to be able to leave the house knowing everyone (and every thing!) is safe.

We are now only medicating if there's a storm prediction. This is where we are still having some issues. Even with medication, there have been 4 times we have come home and Dude has urinated in the crate. He has never peed in the house prior to this crate-training. It is definitely an anxious reaction to the combo of crate and storm. 

We're working with the vet still for guidance and we've upped the strength of his medication to see if that will help next time. Now, we just wait for the next storm!

Oh, and one other thing that has happened is a broken toe nail. Dude began crying one day when he would stand or walk and I looked him over and could not figure out what was wrong...I even checked his nails, so I assumed he must have hurt a muscle or something. After like two days of this, he started licking his foot a lot. It was then that I saw he had almost completely detached his toenail. The vet numbed him, cut it off, bandaged it and then we treated it with pain meds and antibiotics for a week.

I'm not sure how he injured it, but I wonder if he did it in the crate. There are no signs of him scratching it, but it is pretty indestructible so it may not have left marks.

So, anyway, that's where we are! Thanks for everyone's continued support. I've received two private messages checking in on us and I really appreciate knowing I still have you all out there!

While we have been incredibly busy, we have managed to sneak in some peaceful family time- dogs and all. So, here's a few pics for you to see we are still one, big <mostly> happy family. LOL!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I thought about you the other day and read through some of this thread again because our male Whippet has regressed horribly. He has broken four teeth now. We tried him on Xanax for when we know a storm is coming and it made him more excitable. Now he is on Prozac, but it takes 10-45 days to be where it needs to be in his body to work the way it should. What meds are you using on Dude? Do you think a dog could break teeth on the type of crate you are using with the bars being so large?

I am glad things are going so well and that your life is happier now that the dogs are.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I thought about you the other day and read through some of this thread again because our male Whippet has regressed horribly. He has broken four teeth now. We tried him on Xanax for when we know a storm is coming and it made him more excitable. Now he is on Prozac, but it takes 10-45 days to be where it needs to be in his body to work the way it should. What meds are you using on Dude? Do you think a dog could break teeth on the type of crate you are using with the bars being so large?
> 
> I am glad things are going so well and that your life is happier now that the dogs are.


When we were medicating on a daily basis it was clomipramine and now that we are doing it on an "as needed" basis, the vet switched it to something else but I cannot remember what it is called (because I switched it to a different bottle). I'll see if I can fine my receipt in one of my many "to file" piles!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I am delighted to hear that things are going so well! Congratulations!

A few days ago, I visited some friends during a thunderstorm. They have a golden retriever who is very afraid of thunder and lightening and their golden was wearing a thunder jacket. They said that the jacket made a big difference, and their golden seemed to be doing just fine during the storm (but I arrived after the worst of it was over). Might be worth looking into? 

Love hearing your updates. Thanks.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Oh, and in regard to breaking teeth... I guess it would still be possible? I really don't know. The spacing between the bars is pretty wide so it probably could allow a slim snout to get a hold of them? Sorry- not really sure!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

peppersb said:


> I am delighted to hear that things are going so well! Congratulations!
> 
> A few days ago, I visited some friends during a thunderstorm. They have a golden retriever who is very afraid of thunder and lightening and their golden was wearing a thunder jacket. They said that the jacket made a big difference, and their golden seemed to be doing just fine during the storm (but I arrived after the worst of it was over). Might be worth looking into?
> 
> Love hearing your updates. Thanks.


I do need to try that. It seems like maybe I thought they didn't have one to fit him, but I'll go check out their website and look at size chart!

ETA: Well, they do indeed make a huge one for freaks of nature like Dude! I think they don't carry the really big ones in stores, but they do have them on their site! THANKS!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We bought one for Wiz, but it does nothing for him. The good thing about them is, they have a full 45 day money back guarantee. Apparently lots of people have great success with them, so definitely worth a try.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Good to hear from you, kuku! And to know things are for the most part going poodley well along. _Ouch_ for Dude's ripped toenail--hurt me just to read about it! Hope it mends well and he isn't too uncomfortable.:clover:

My brother's dog had severe thunderstorm phobia throughout her 14 year life. It got progressively worse and harder to deal with, and the medications she was on were changed and upped several times over. Just checked to see what the Merck Veterinary Manual has to offer about meds for phobias these days. Here's an excerpt.

Behavioral Problems of Dogs: Normal Social Behavior and Behavioral Problems of Domestic Animals: Merck Veterinary Manual
Phobic responses in dogs are generally associated with loud noises (eg, gunshots, fireworks) or a combination of stimuli such as rain, thunder, lightning, and perhaps even static or pressure changes associated with a thunderstorm. Some fears (eg, veterinary clinics, going outdoors, entering certain rooms, or going across certain types of flooring) may become so intense that they meet the definition of a phobia.

The most commonly used medications for fear, generalized anxiety disorders, phobias, and compulsive disorders, are the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (eg, fluoxetine) and tricyclic antidepressants (eg, clomipramine). Fluoxetine can be considered for some cases of aggression where impulsivity or intense anxiety is a factor. Carbamazepine has also been used anecdotally as adjunctive therapy in these cases. While the full effect might not be achieved for 3–4 wk, some effect might be noted in the first week. For selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and clomipramine, doses at the high end of the range may be required for intense fears and phobias and compulsive disorders. For some compulsive disorders, especially those in which there is a self-traumatic component, gabapentin or carbamazepine might be used concurrently.

When an anxiety-evoking event can be predicted (eg, thunderstorms, fireworks, owner departure, visit to the veterinarian, car ride, exposure to dogs or strangers on a walk, visitors coming to the home), a benzodiazepine can be given with the antidepressant ~1 hr before the event. Because benzodiazepines have a varying effects and relatively short half-lives, their efficacy, dose, and duration should be determined in advance of their therapeutic use.

Buspirone, a mild anxiolytic, is another option for ongoing use. Trazodone, in conjunction with other antidepressants, can be considered; it might help to calm if used prior to the anxiety-evoking event or on an ongoing basis. Caution should be exercised when using anxiolytics as some may disinhibit fearful dogs, which could lead to increased confidence and aggression.

Selegiline (licensed in North America for the treatment of cognitive dysfunction syndrome in dogs) is also used for treatment of emotional disorders or chronic anxiety in Europe. Propranolol has been used in conjunction with behavioral drugs to reduce the physical signs of anxiety. Natural options for ongoing use that might reduce anxiety are dog appeasing pheromone, Harmonease® (containing Magnolia officinalis and Phellodendron amurense), l-theanine, α-casozepine, and perhaps melatonin or aromatherapy. The use of L-tryptophan in combination with a low-protein diet may reduce some forms of anxiety and aggression. While drugs may reduce anxiety and impulsivity and work to normalize brain pathology, concurrent environmental management and behavior modification is required to achieve effective and lasting improvement.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Thunder Jacket has worked for my mom's Boston. She puts it on and all is well when it's storming outside. Maybe try one for Dude. 

So glad to see this update, I was wondering too how it was going. Thanks!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

So very glad to hear all is going relatively well for Dude and Daisy! Thank you for the update....we're like a bunch of old worried hens! LOL!


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