# Line-breeding vs in-breeding?



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

They both mean breeding together related dogs. There is no official, clear distinction between the two terms, although inbreeding is often considered to be the practice of breeding together very close relatives, such as brothers and sisters and parents and offspring, whereas linebreeding is more often considered to be breeding more distant relatives, such as aunt/nephew and cousins.

Try looking up the parents on Poodle Health Registry Database or Poodle Pedigree and see what the COI readings for them are on there. Poodlepedigree will even let you create a 'test breeding' and calculate a COI for you by Saturday morning.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As zyrcona says, scientists would consider both to be inbreeding, to different degrees. Line breeding (and in breeding) has been used to fix traits, but has led to a concentration of bad traits as well as good, and a reduction in immune system diversity - which could explain the growing incidence of autoimmune disorders. It was so prevalent until very recently that most pedigrees will show the same names cropping up several times over - it is only in the last few years that the UK Kennel Club has stopped registering the offspring of first degree - mother/son, father/daughter - matings, and I believe the US Kennel Club still allows them. COI, which calculates the degree of inbreeding over many generations, is the best generally available indicator, although someone who knows the different breeding lines inside out and the detailed history of each, and is prepared to be absolutely honest about them, is an even better source, if you can find them!


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## Alexasha (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks, all! So I'm working on registering to look on registry and can call back to get COI but any ideas how to find the later? Someone who knows and is honest?


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## Alexasha (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm sensing the line-breeding is frowned upon? Any immediate things about puppy that should raise red flags... The puppy is very small:5lbs at about 4 months... Is that concerning?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Alexasha said:


> I'm sensing the line-breeding is frowned upon? Any immediate things about puppy that should raise red flags... The puppy is very small:5lbs at about 4 months... Is that concerning?


As far as I understand, line breeding is not frowned upon... Line breeding and inbreeding are used to solidify type. All breeding methods require careful, thoughtful judicious choices.

COI, line breeding, inbreeding, matching dams and sires, everyone will have a slightly different opinion. Breeding is not black and white. 

This is a toy puppy, correct? 5 pounds at 4 months does not sound small to me for a toy.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Alexasha said:


> Thanks, all! So I'm working on registering to look on registry and can call back to get COI but any ideas how to find the later? Someone who knows and is honest?


With PHR, the 10-generation COI is displayed at the top of the dog's pedigree. On Poodlepedigree, the 12 and 10 generation COIs can be found under 'view genetic information on...' at the bottom of the pedigree page.

Whether it's a bad thing or not is up to the buyer and the breeder to decide for themselves. There is scientific evidence that a COI greater than around 6% starts to result in a phenomenon called 'inbreeding depression' whereby a trend of reduced lifespan and overall diminished vigour and robustness is exhibited by a population; link.


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## Oodlejpoodle's mom (Sep 11, 2009)

[QUOTE This is a toy puppy, correct? 5 pounds at 4 months does not sound small to me for a toy.[/QUOTE]

My nine year old toy weighs 5lbs 6oz, my 7 year old weighs 8lbs and I have a 4 year old that weighs between 9 and 10 lbs. Please restrict high jumps (off sofa, bed etc.) to avoid injuries to a pup so small.

Best wishes on your new pup! ENJOY, be careful though.....poodles are like potato chips, you can't just have one.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

5lbs at 4 months is not a small toy puppy. Many adult toy pups weigh that amount. My OT is 12" & 9.2lbs at 14months. At 4 months of age she was 6.4lbs. 

Best bet is as others have suggested is go to PHR or Poodle pedigree to actually see the pedigree. Some breeders breed tighter lines & others totally outcross while others may bo back to a line but could be 8 to 10 generations back.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

IF you really, really know the bloodline and have personally handled all the dogs, maybe consider linebred. 

But linebred brings out the worst too.

I don't think it's something for beginners to delve into. Get COPIES of health testing. PRA, CHIC, OFA.... what is the other?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Line and inbreeding can perpetuate disease, but they don't have to. Like tortoise said, if you know the lines sometimes people do it to avoid diseases in other lines (they don't trust other lines). I do think inbreeding and linebreeding can weaken immune systems, though. A COI up to 10% should be acceptable whether line bred or inbred. I prefer a dog with as little of it as possible, but then you are taking a risk with conformation. You don't know quite what you'll get as an adult dog. Line breeding and inbreeding can be seen as the lazy way out because it is easy to breed a dog in your own backyard, much more difficult and costly to use one not related.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> Line breeding and inbreeding can be seen as the lazy way out because it is easy to breed a dog in your own backyard, much more difficult and costly to use one not related.


Breeders who line breed are not necessarily using a dog they own, they are using a related dog (cousin, aunt, uncle, etc.), which could very well be owned by someone else. 

I don't think it's lazy breeding at all, in fact, to do it right you have to be ultra judicious.... (key words being "do it right").


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> Breeders who line breed are not necessarily using a dog they own, they are using a related dog (cousin, aunt, uncle, etc.), which could very well be owned by someone else.
> 
> I don't think it's lazy breeding at all, in fact, to do it right you have to be ultra judicious.... (key words being "do it right").


Yes, it can be done judiciously and carefully, but a lot of people do it because the dog is available and free. We are talking two different types of breeders. I would be very careful buying a line/inbred dog, but I do think there can be a place for them. I would want the COI under 10%, which means there can't be more than one, maybe two crossovers. That's just me.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

*Toy Poodle Size*



PaddleAddict said:


> As far as I understand, line breeding is not frowned upon... Line breeding and inbreeding are used to solidify type. All breeding methods require careful, thoughtful judicious choices.
> 
> COI, line breeding, inbreeding, matching dams and sires, everyone will have a slightly different opinion. Breeding is not black and white.
> 
> This is a toy puppy, correct? 5 pounds at 4 months does not sound small to me for a toy.


Sounds big; Jake was 5.2 lbs at 12 weeks and he was a very large mini -- 30 pounds and almost 18" ---- his other littermates (3) were all in the 3 pound range, at 12 weeks, so yes, for a toy that seems large.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

i was just going to ask about this and found a thread on it. I'm glad to see that someone is saying that 10% is ok. I have been trying to get info on the sire and dam on a pup i want to purchase and was wondering what kind of coi i should look for. she has yet to give me their names though so i'm suspecting it to be high. she told me it was good to inbreed/line breed to hold onto color....do you agree with that? I got my jax to show but he is a odd color to breed to and didn't think about it much until now. i would like to follow his coloring which is either red and whites or apricot and whites. (which he carries a lot of) I would like to keep the colors from fading. this breeder has some red and white but like i said have yet to see the pedigrees. I'm thinking she inbred this litter to hold onto the color as they have darken a lot since birth. any thoughts great


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I would go no further with this until she gives you their names. Plop them into poodle pedigree and you should see a COI under genetic info. 

To hold onto color inbreeding'/line breeding works well. To hold onto health? Not so much. There is _always_ a payoff. That's why I said try to stick with a COI 10% or under. The average COI is around 15% or so (peoples opinion varies on that). It depends on what you are looking for and what you want. 

If color is really important to you, then maybe a higher COI would not matter to you. To me, color is about the least important thing, but it is a big bonus to look at a pretty color every day. You can get very pretty color with low COI dogs !!!!! It doesn't seem to me to be necessary.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

outwest said:


> I would go no further with this until she gives you their names. Plop them into poodle pedigree and you should see a COI under genetic info.
> 
> To hold onto color inbreeding'/line breeding works well. To hold onto health? Not so much. There is _always_ a payoff. That's why I said try to stick with a COI 10% or under. The average COI is around 15% or so (peoples opinion varies on that). It depends on what you are looking for and what you want.
> 
> If color is really important to you, then maybe a higher COI would not matter to you. To me, color is about the least important thing, but it is a big bonus to look at a pretty color every day. You can get very pretty color with low COI dogs !!!!! It doesn't seem to me to be necessary.


I'm just trying to avoid colors that fade. I wouldn't want people expecting their dog to stay in the color they bought and then have it fade. my mother bought a toy poodle that faded. she was upset but of course by then she loved the dog so it didn't matter. this is not the only issue but i would like to get that if i could. i could go the long route but i'm not going to do a lot of breeding so i only really have one shot.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am not at all sure that it is really possible to ensure pups do not change colour as they mature through the choice of just one parent for one breeding - poodles, especially brown, apricot and red poodles, tend to clear to a lighter colour, and the mechanisms are complex and not fully understood. Line breeding concentrates a particular set of genes in that particular line - as soon as you introduce your own poodle into the equation, the mix is changed, and new combinations created. Unless you are looking to breed him to one of his own close relatives?

Like Outwest, I think it is a potentially dangerous route to take. Far better to educate potential puppy buyers in the probability that certain poodle coat colours will change over time. Or breed black or white poodles, of course!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Melodyp77 said:


> I'm just trying to avoid colors that fade. I wouldn't want people expecting their dog to stay in the color they bought and then have it fade. my mother bought a toy poodle that faded. she was upset but of course by then she loved the dog so it didn't matter. this is not the only issue but i would like to get that if i could. i could go the long route but i'm not going to do a lot of breeding so i only really have one shot.


I don't care what your breeding practices are, all poodles, especially those of color have the potential to fade and there is no guarantee that a dark color will hold. 

Breeding with COLOR being the number one priority is a huge problem in some of the poodle lines. Color should come AFTER health, temperament, conformation, working ability, etc. 

If you want to avoid the issue of colors that fade, stick to whites/creams and black (although no guarantee that black will stay jet black).


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Aaah...what color do you want? I don't know any reds that do not fade and only a handful of browns that don't fade. The toy reds do keep their colors a little better than the larger ones.

Your best shot at a nonfading color is to choose from two parents that did not fade. If the parents of these pups are both rich, dark colors than the chances of your pup retaining its color is much higher. Avoid lines with silver and other naturally fading colors to improve the chances, too. Look at the shaved muzzles of the puppies. Some puppies look pitch black, but when you shave their muzzles they show they will fade to blue or silver. 

It is never a guarantee that a puppy won't fade. There is a fading gene prevelent in American poodles because of all the mixing of colors. Not all poodles carry this gene. My girl actually got darker rather than lighter as she grew, so I think she may not carry the fading gene, but she was also from two nonfading black poodles. If you want black you can likely find some where they have only bred black to black and those would probably be less fading. The puppies from nonfading black parents can have nonfading poodles of color, too. 

PS I meant to say There is always a tradeoff, not payoff. 

Since you only have one shot at this, I am happy you are doing your homework. You may have to buy a pup from a distance to get what you are looking for. Unfortunately, byb and puppy mills are rampant in Arizona.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

I'm just striving to get deeper color reds in the standard. My boy is an apricot and white parti. has lots of red and whites in his back ground so I just thought I work off his color gene pool. His 2 full brothers have the red and white. it's gorgeous. Of course I would tell new owners that it may fade. I just thought this is the direction I would like to go in since I already have it in my dog. I don't have to stick with it. when it comes to color breeding i know sometimes you get what you least expect.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Then choose a red girl with black points.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Hi Melody. Have you seen pictures of the parents, and does the breeder have a website with information about her breeding dogs, even with just their pet names? Sometimes it's possible to dig these things up with a bit of detective work. To get an idea of your pup's likely final colour, you would need to see both parents at the age of 2 or older.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

zyrcona said:


> Hi Melody. Have you seen pictures of the parents, and does the breeder have a website with information about her breeding dogs, even with just their pet names? Sometimes it's possible to dig these things up with a bit of detective work. To get an idea of your pup's likely final colour, you would need to see both parents at the age of 2 or older.


Yes, She has a website and I can see the parents at what age, would be anybody's guess. I would assume 1 and half to 2. As I know that this is her first litter and I think his second although they are overlapping. If these pics are recent I'm not sure. The pups themselves are getting darker. In fact really dark. I'm going to search elsewhere unless she gets a hold of me. I may just ask about her reputation on another thread. I think she gets a lot of mixed opinions. From what I have seen on this site before. It's so hard to choice a great breeder.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

There is a terrific article in the April/May 2010 Poodle Variety magazine about line-breeding and in-breeding. You can order back issues from their web site, or can check to see if the article might be available online.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Melody: It might not hurt to post who the breeder is, the likelihood that someone on the PF knows of them is great. Might save you some heartache.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Melody077: It might not hurt to post who the breeder is, the likelihood that someone on the PF knows of them is great. Might save you some heartache.


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## Melodyp77 (Mar 4, 2012)

zyrcona said:


> Hi Melody. Have you seen pictures of the parents, and does the breeder have a website with information about her breeding dogs, even with just their pet names? Sometimes it's possible to dig these things up with a bit of detective work. To get an idea of your pup's likely final colour, you would need to see both parents at the age of 2 or older.


Yes, She has a website and I can see the parents at what age, would be anybody's guess. I would assume 1 and half to 2. As I know that this is her first litter and I think his second although they are overlapping. If these pics are recent I'm not sure. The pups themselves are getting darker. In fact really dark. I'm going to search elsewhere unless she gets a hold of me. I may just ask about her reputation on another thread. I think she gets a lot of mixed opinions. From what I have seen on this site before. It's so hard to choice a great breeder.


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