# Frenchies StNdard Poodles of Utah



## Purple Poodle

This kennel has come up before, the link to that thread is here -> http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=2784


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## Olie

I think their pricing seems OK with what they offer. I didn't see any solids.


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## Mercury's Mom

Thanks for the link to the other posts. Unfortunately I didn't know enough about hip testing so didn't understand the info on her site as well as I though I did. 

Is her pricing average? She quoted 2 pups (one sable and one parti male) for $1200 with limited registration. She said when she gets solids they are $900+. I guess I was just suprised that non show spoos from non show spoos would be quite that much. Yes they are beautiful and she seems like a very informed breeder. Judy wants a healthy spoo however what makes the Frenchies line worth $1200 when another breeder has spoos, who's parents have had their eyes and hips certified, and is only asking $500 a pup. Is it the parti gene? I am seriouly asking, not being a snot. When a line has not many chanps (because they are parti poos i assume) what makes them cost more than other pups with show parents who have had the same health test, or more, than the non show pups? Perhaps this is to complicated a question but I am at a loss and want to learn everyhing I can.


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## KalaMama

Mercury's Mom said:


> Thanks for the link to the other posts. Unfortunately I didn't know enough about hip testing so didn't understand the info on her site as well as I though I did.
> 
> Is her pricing average? She quoted 2 pups (one sable and one parti male) for $1200 with limited registration. She said when she gets solids they are $900+. I guess I was just suprised that non show spoos from non show spoos would be quite that much. Yes they are beautiful and she seems like a very informed breeder. Judy wants a healthy spoo however what makes the Frenchies line worth $1200 when another breeder has spoos, who's parents have had their eyes and hips certified, and is only asking $500 a pup. Is it the parti gene? I am seriouly asking, not being a snot. When a line has not many chanps (because they are parti poos i assume) what makes them cost more than other pups with show parents who have had the same health test, or more, than the non show pups? Perhaps this is to complicated a question but I am at a loss and want to learn everyhing I can.


I would think it is because it is trendy right now and eventhough it is not rare, it is fairly "new" to the public or "the in thing". I don't think the quality or even color is any better than another, but $500 would be on the low end of a health tested champion line poodle I would think. Don't take my word for it though-everything is more expensive in Hawaii. They sell chihuahua terrier mixes for 600 in the pet stores.:wacko:


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## bigredpoodle

There is a lot of really iffy stuff there on her site.. She does alot of prelims and never follows through. Way back she had *opinions* on her dogs. I think she is learning and doing better but still...I would question as the pedigrees and if she has produced Addisons or epilipsy and hppefully she will be honest with you . She does have lovely dogs though..


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## KCWood

I almost went with Leslie as my breeder. She is really nice and so willing to answer questions. I'd e-mail her a question and she'd get back to me that day or the next morning. Then I came to this site and learned a lot more about what to look for in a breeder. Then the thread that PP posted helped me decide to go with a different breeder. I figured that one of the main reasons I was going with a breeder was to make sure I could get as healthy of a dog as I could. I know there is no guarantee that I'd get a 100% healthy dog, but I feel that going with a breeder who does as much health testing as they can helps in that area a lot. When I figured out that she wasn't following up on her testing and breeding dogs way too young, I knew I needed to find someone else. I was sad because I really do like Leslie a lot.

About the solids, I was interested in a solid as well. She can't guarantee a solid since she breeds for partis but sometimes they pop up in her litters. She has tried to do a breeding that would produce more solid puppies but so far it has not been successful. 

I know each person has their different criteria when choosing a breeder. Mine was health testing being high up on the list. Other people have different opinions, but I thought I'd share mine. HTH.


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## desertreef

Judy wants a healthy spoo however what makes the Frenchies line worth $1200 when another breeder has spoos, who's parents have had their eyes and hips certified, and is only asking $500 a pup. Is it the parti gene?

Why would having a parti gene make a difference if they are on a limited registration, meaning I should hope, to not breed the pup being sold.

....Perhaps this is to complicated a question but I am at a loss and want to learn everyhing I can.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is a lot to learn so it's good you start now and not be in any hurry for a puppy.

You stated that they advertise in your area often. What do you mean? A newspaper ad?

I located a video clip (I knew I had seen their dogs somewhere) It has one of their parti's in the group. It didn't place... my girl, Grace, is the white standard who took best of group and then unto best of show.
(I'm not ashamed of bragging! <g> She comes from health tested parents, up the gazoo too!)


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=59683867


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## Mercury's Mom

They advertise in the local paper and in our free classifieds frequently.


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## Mercury's Mom

oh, and you SHOULD brag. What a beauty!!


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## 814

*Frenchies Poodles*

Well I'm surprised to see some of the nice things said about me THANKS, and then again shocked on some of the negative things that are in correct, I would like to say my peace then go about my business as I don't spend much time in chat rooms, I love being a breeder and believe in breeding the healthiest puppies I can. Yes my lines have kitsues in them but did not come from their( I had one and returned him for personal reasons) and Lola is the only one from Cherdons and she is AMAZING! At the time I started their wasn't much choice, I health test all my Poo's (CERF,VWD,OFA) If you read on the OFA site they explain the reasoning for prelims and the percentage they change compared to the 24 month old Poodles which is very low, as for Lola that had a Vet Hip Evaluation, both here parents are OFA and yes she needs done if I see fit, you are all missing the point you need to look at the whole dog all its good traits and bad traits. If I have a dog that excels in good traits with a fair rating it would be a in justus to remove that dog from a breeding program as fair is acceptable with OFA, I feel you should breed to improve the whole dog, not just hips alone, altho they are FIRST on my list!!! As of now I only have one dog with a fair rating, the rest are prelim good or penn-hip good, I have worked very hard to improve the breed with each breeding,I never breed a female until they have had 2 heat cycles which is close to 2yrs, and their was a comment about me trading or selling my older dogs, I do like to put diversity in my lines and a breeder has to make a tuff call sometimes, if you are a breeder you know what I mean! but I got to say I'm still learning everyday, I love each and everyone of my loving, loyal poodles they are my friends!, Thanks for reading Leslie


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## puppylove

Thanks for your response Leslie.


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## cbrand

Frenchie said:


> I never breed a female until they have had 2 heat cycles which is close to 2yrs,



www.poodlepedigree.com lists the following Frenchie poodles as having been bred at the ages noted:

Lola (bitch) 10 months
Chinook (bitch) 11 months
Zella (bitch) 15 months
Smokie (dog) 13 months


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## 814

cbrand said:


> www.poodlepedigree.com lists the following Frenchie poodles as having been bred at the ages noted:
> 
> Lola (bitch) 10 months
> Chinook (bitch) 11 months
> Zella (bitch) 15 months
> Smokie (dog) 13 months


Like I said I'm still learning everyday, and doing the best I can, I do find it offensive that you can not see the good I have done.


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## KPoos

cbrand said:


> www.poodlepedigree.com lists the following Frenchie poodles as having been bred at the ages noted:
> 
> Lola (bitch) 10 months
> Chinook (bitch) 11 months
> Zella (bitch) 15 months
> Smokie (dog) 13 months


:scared:

Those are puppies that were bred.


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## TinyPoodles

1073 said:


> Well I'm surprised to see some of the nice things said about me THANKS, and then again shocked on some of the negative things that are in correct, I would like to say my peace then go about my business as I don't spend much time in chat rooms, I love being a breeder and believe in breeding the healthiest puppies I can. Yes my lines have kitsues in them but did not come from their( I had one and returned him for personal reasons) and Lola is the only one from Cherdons and she is AMAZING! At the time I started their wasn't much choice, I health test all my Poo's (CERF,VWD,OFA) If you read on the OFA site they explain the reasoning for prelims and the percentage they change compared to the 24 month old Poodles which is very low, as for Lola that had a Vet Hip Evaluation, both here parents are OFA and yes she needs done if I see fit, you are all missing the point you need to look at the whole dog all its good traits and bad traits. If I have a dog that excels in good traits with a fair rating it would be a in justus to remove that dog from a breeding program as fair is acceptable with OFA, I feel you should breed to improve the whole dog, not just hips alone, altho they are FIRST on my list!!! As of now I only have one dog with a fair rating, the rest are prelim good or penn-hip good, I have worked very hard to improve the breed with each breeding,I never breed a female until they have had 2 heat cycles which is close to 2yrs, and their was a comment about me trading or selling my older dogs, I do like to put diversity in my lines and a breeder has to make a tuff call sometimes, if you are a breeder you know what I mean! but I got to say I'm still learning everyday, I love each and everyone of my loving, loyal poodles they are my friends!, Thanks for reading Leslie


Hi Leslie,

I won't judge you since...heck yes we have all done things that others consider not "correct". I think the saying is "those that live in glass houses" comes to mind,especially having read it a few times on this message board.

Great that you are on here to clairify or speak up about yourself.

Most breeders get totally trashed for doing anything "outside" the norm... but like you have discovered... Unless some breeders (with goals) do breed and do things outside the norm, greatness can be missed. 

Some people ...pet owners and new breeders have probably never heard of females coming into heat at 4 months of age. I have had females come into heat every 4 months. I have had "split heats"... with experience comes knowledge. 

I breed second heat if after 12 months of age. That is "MY" belief of the way I will do things. As a result my females are exceptionally healthy and great moms and no associated fertility problems or health issues that breeders have had that wait for 24 months of age (breeding by the book) and let their females get stressed by many heats. My choice. 

Fairs...OMG the fair question again... 
Fairs are a pass.... 
Let me repeat this because seems it is confusing...
*OFA FAIRS ARE A PASS.*

Yes ideally "EXCELLENT" hip ratings would be all we would breed. 
But some of the TOP show standard Poodles of all time have a wack of fairs behind them and those fairs have gone on to produce "goods" and excellents" so good thing they were not eliminated from the gene pool. 

Breeders have to be "aware" of the results and plan around that. Yes we should NEVER EVER "_through the baby out with the bathwater_" breeders should weigh your future and make "plans". aka breeding with a purpose. 

I have also read and believe what the experts at OFA say about prelim (REAL Prelim certificates issued by OFA) have determined in that the results of a 3-6 month evaluation maintain the rating as adults... 
http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html
Information located here: http://www.offa.org/prelimpolicy.html

I also have no issues with breeding before 24 months if prelims have been done or even if both parents have passed OFA (after all, that is why we screen with OFA to ensure progeny will pass) ... again, depending on the health of the female of course.

It is great to have a "book" laid out on what is the "normal" is for breeding guidelines when we start out breeding so at least we have a clue... but "thinking out of the box" (to obtain a goal or breed with a purpose) often provides MANY unique GREAT opportunities that would otherwise be missed should we as breeders "succome" to peer pressure or forum consenses. 

Leslie... take what is said here with a grain of salt. 
You may get some great suggestions (instead of judgments).
You may make some great people to network with. 

There are some "VERY" judgemental people on here (not meaning any one person in particular at all... before anyone takes offence) 

That have NEVER bred a litter of _anything_ "themselves" with the full responsibility. OR that have never bred a litter of standard Poodles themselves with the full responsibility. 

There are "breeders" on here that will judge "you" 
Who don't have any health testing done on the dogs they are breeding (despite the testiment that prelims are done) or that will say it is OK for "THEM" to do only because "THEIR" breeding just had too many great qualities to let health testing stand in their way or that "they" knew what they were doing... aka excuses instead of just admitting it is their way of doing things.... 

There are breeders on here that will judge you that have also bred their dogs before they were 24 months of age and yes before any health testing was done either... so yeah... consider the source.

For any person looking for a good breeder ... there is a process that you may wish to look into. 
AKC and many clubs offer guidelines to look for in a breeder.
This forum can give you many without ...WITHOUT... saying this person or that person is a good breeder... or a bad breeder.

but when people come on here naming a breeders name and asking for references or what not... 
1. from past experience we have to wonder if it the breeder themselves brokering pups
2. If it is that breeders competition coming on here to trash talk.
3. If none of the above...then also keep in mind that Breeders are on here that are... or will be in the future.... or have friends that are selling pups.

It is like asking FORD for a reference on GM. 

Instead I would like to focas on generic (rather than name calling which is so negative) facts in what to look for in a breeder and there are many great sources of information for a Puppy Buyer to source out and refer to.

Here are some that were brough up on this site before and of course we can also agree and disagree on these too... without offending anyone or engaging in any trash talking about 'anyone'. 

http://www.akc.org/press_center/facts_stats.cfm?page=responsible_breeder


*But basic things to consider like:*

Is all health testing completed?
How and where are the pups raised ?
Are their dogs bred to improve the breed and as such have titles ?
What was the goal in breeding the parents (ie what qualities are they breeding for or what purpose)? 
Do they have experience with the breed and breeding (ie over 5 years)
ARe both parents registered (AKC, CKC, UKC) make sure to view this 
Can you meet the parents
Do the breeders have web pages (established)
Does the breeder have the Pedigree and or know the COI of the breeding ?
Does the breeder only sell pets with "limited" registration
What is the guarantee and are YOU ok with that ?
Does the breeder have photos of pups as adults to show you that tehy are evaluating their program and monitoring their program ?
Does the breeder have References for you to read 
Does the breeder have full time employment outside the home to afford their hobby ?
Does the breeder get back to you and answer questions within a timely manner ? as should there be problems you want to know that they are there for you.


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## Fluffyspoos

TinyPoodles said:


> There are some "VERY" judgemental people on here (not meaning any one person in particular at all... before anyone takes offence)


Oooooh yeah there are. lol.


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## Purple Poodle

I don't think anyone was meaning to be rude but rather offering up factual information.

This forum is made of of dog owners who share a passion for Poodles. Yes there are a few breeders here and that's wonderful but not everyone is hiding some agenda and are out to "get" people.

As I have stated before I think Leslie is on the right track and has bred some beautiful puppies but in my own opinion I would not by from her. Its nothing against her, I just do not care for the lines she breeds from. Its a personal preference and I admit I like to make a weekly visit to her sight to look at her adorable puppies as they are adorable!

Just another opinion here but just because the dog has a passing hip score does not mean it should be bred. Hips are one among many things that need screening and clearing.


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## KPoos

You know "Tinypoodles" I'm not a breeder but breeding a dog at 10 months, sorry that's just crappy. There is absolutely NO reason that would justify breeding a dog that young ESPECIALLY in a large breed dog. Is there a necessity that is so extremely important that you breed a dog before it's even finished GROWING??? I don't see the point unless you've got money waiting on the table for you and you need some puppies to fill orders. Then there are other judgments awaiting you and I don't care what kind of freaking house you live in, you deserve anything that people throw at you. I'm entitled to my opinion and I personally would never condone such a thing and wouldn't want to associate myself with anyone that would even TRY to justify it.


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## cbrand

It is not "best practices" to breed a Standard Poodle before age 2. Besides waiting for an official OFA hip certification or a Pennhip score that is less likely to change, it is important to wait and see the overall health of a line. This means taking a look at the health of the breeding parents, siblings, grandparents and even great grandparents.

As I have said before, there are so many Standard Poodle disorders that we can NOT test for including:

Addisons
Epilepsy
JRD
SA
CAH
Bloat
Auto-immune disorders such as IMT or IMHA.

Poodle fanciers across the country have been appealing to Standard Poodle breeders to take a WAIT AND SEE approach. If Poodle breeders would cool their heels a bit and wait to breed until a Standard Poodle was at least over age 3 yrs then we would have a better chance of eliminating health disorders that we can not test for outright.

Of course it would also mean that Poodle breeders would need to personally know the dogs in their pedigree and be able to contact the owners/breeders. It also means that breeders need to "man up" and cull dogs from their breeding program when problems appear in a line.


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## bigredpoodle

_Poodle fanciers across the country have been appealing to Standard Poodle breeders to take a WAIT AND SEE approach. If Poodle breeders would cool their heels a bit and wait to breed until a Standard Poodle was at least over age 3 yrs then we would have a better chance of eliminating health disorders that we can not test for outright.

Of course it would also mean that Poodle breeders would need to personally know the dogs in their pedigree and be able to contact the owners/breeders. It also means that breeders need to "man up" and cull dogs from their breeding program when problems appear in a line.[/QUOTE_


What do you cull for? And how do you cull? Interesting that you would use that term.........


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## bigredpoodle

I think that this breeder has said that she realizes that she made mistakes and has learned from them. She did not ask to be judged. So if all of this is in the past what is the point? 
I agree that we should wait to breed until a dog is older but then we must all realize that accidents can and do happen..Cbrand Are you sure that these breedings that you found were on purpose? And if so what was the result?
I just having had a bitch with a pyometra , can definately see the other side of the story as Tinypoodles points outs. If you know your lines and parents are clear. Then the risk in minimal. But if you wait a pyometra could be in your future and you have lost the opportunity..
I have a bitch that is just going out of season and she is under a year . So yes this is true Tinypoodles. But I do not plan to breed her before age two. 
and it is interesting that the thought about placing older dogs came up. I get calls all the time from Pet folks looking for a deal on an older retired show dog or retired breeding dog.. 
WE do not personally do this , but why is this an issue?.... . Just curious......
I think that it should be against the rules of this forum to single out breeders. Because if anyone knows anything at all they are morally obligated to speak up. There are breeders on here that *do not *test, this particular breeder in question *IS* testing. So the learning curve is over right? There are websites that will only take advertisements from breeders that can prove testing. Yes they cost money but you know if they are on there that they do test...Poodles online is one..Poodle breeders.com is another I know there are more...But on these sites you have to be able to link to offa or have a chic number or some quantifiable testing.......

I like the idea of the link on this forum on how to find an ethical breeder...This could be used over and over..
This is just my opinion , as I see this happen over and over I think it does look suspicious almost like a set up....

Make someone look bad to make another look better..IMHO


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## bigredpoodle

desertreef said:


> Judy wants a healthy spoo however what makes the Frenchies line worth $1200 when another breeder has spoos, who's parents have had their eyes and hips certified, and is only asking $500 a pup. Is it the parti gene?
> 
> Why would having a parti gene make a difference if they are on a limited registration, meaning I should hope, to not breed the pup being sold.
> 
> ....Perhaps this is to complicated a question but I am at a loss and want to learn everyhing I can.


Yes, there is a lot to learn so it's good you start now and not be in any hurry for a puppy.

You stated that they advertise in your area often. What do you mean? A newspaper ad?

I located a video clip (I knew I had seen their dogs somewhere) It has one of their parti's in the group. It didn't place... my girl, Grace, is the white standard who took best of group and then unto best of show.
(I'm not ashamed of bragging! <g> She comes from health tested parents, up the gazoo too!)


http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=59683867[/QUOTE]

Grace is lovely Karen ! Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cbrand

bigredpoodle said:


> Cbrand Are you sure that these breedings that you found were on purpose? And if so what was the result? I just having had a bitch with a pyometra , can definately see the other side of the story as Tinypoodles points outs. If you know your lines and parents are clear. Then the risk in minimal. But if you wait a pyometra could be in your future and you have lost the opportunity..


Pyometra can be devastating to an individual breeder, but waiting to breed benefits the overall population. Waiting gives a breeder an opportunity to try and stop a problem before it is spread further into the population. Culling by the way means to remove from breeding. I'm not advocating taking old Fluffy out and shooting him behind the barn.

Only time can tell a breeder if their lines are clear. I would NEVER have thought that I would have a problem with Bloat until around age 8 when all of a sudden a bunch of Bloat cases in my line started popping up. I culled this particular problem by spaying both Sabrina and her daughter Izze. Now I will have to go forward with Delilah who is from an unrelated line.

Accidental breedings..... OK. It happens. But when bitches and dogs are consistently bred at a VERY young age, it starts to look like an established breeding pattern. 

Frenchies said that they are learning and trying to do better (note... Zella was bred at 15 months at the end of last year, so this epiphany must have been a recent one). I think every breeder should continue to learn about the breed and its issues. However, best practices would once again be to learn as much as you could FIRST and then go forward with breeding, not visa versa. 

As far as a set up? Frenchies stated that they don't breed their dogs before around age 2. That was clearly a false statement.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

TinyPoodles said:


> Hi Leslie,
> 
> I won't judge you since...heck yes we have all done things that others consider not "correct". I think the saying is "those that live in glass houses" comes to mind,especially having read it a few times on this message board.
> 
> Great that you are on here to clairify or speak up about yourself.
> 
> Most breeders get totally trashed for doing anything "outside" the norm... but like you have discovered... Unless some breeders (with goals) do breed and do things outside the norm, greatness can be missed.
> 
> Some people ...pet owners and new breeders have probably never heard of females coming into heat at 4 months of age. I have had females come into heat every 4 months. I have had "split heats"... with experience comes knowledge.
> 
> I breed second heat if after 12 months of age. That is "MY" belief of the way I will do things. As a result my females are exceptionally healthy and great moms and no associated fertility problems or health issues that breeders have had that wait for 24 months of age (breeding by the book) and let their females get stressed by many heats. My choice.
> 
> Fairs...OMG the fair question again...
> Fairs are a pass....
> Let me repeat this because seems it is confusing...
> *OFA FAIRS ARE A PASS.*
> 
> Yes ideally "EXCELLENT" hip ratings would be all we would breed.
> But some of the TOP show standard Poodles of all time have a wack of fairs behind them and those fairs have gone on to produce "goods" and excellents" so good thing they were not eliminated from the gene pool.
> 
> Breeders have to be "aware" of the results and plan around that. Yes we should NEVER EVER "_through the baby out with the bathwater_" breeders should weigh your future and make "plans". aka breeding with a purpose.
> 
> I have also read and believe what the experts at OFA say about prelim (REAL Prelim certificates issued by OFA) have determined in that the results of a 3-6 month evaluation maintain the rating as adults...
> http://www.offa.org/hipprelim.html
> Information located here: http://www.offa.org/prelimpolicy.html
> 
> I also have no issues with breeding before 24 months if prelims have been done or even if both parents have passed OFA (after all, that is why we screen with OFA to ensure progeny will pass) ... again, depending on the health of the female of course.
> 
> It is great to have a "book" laid out on what is the "normal" is for breeding guidelines when we start out breeding so at least we have a clue... but "thinking out of the box" (to obtain a goal or breed with a purpose) often provides MANY unique GREAT opportunities that would otherwise be missed should we as breeders "succome" to peer pressure or forum consenses.
> 
> Leslie... take what is said here with a grain of salt.
> You may get some great suggestions (instead of judgments).
> You may make some great people to network with.
> 
> There are some "VERY" judgemental people on here (not meaning any one person in particular at all... before anyone takes offence)
> 
> That have NEVER bred a litter of _anything_ "themselves" with the full responsibility. OR that have never bred a litter of standard Poodles themselves with the full responsibility.
> 
> There are "breeders" on here that will judge "you"
> Who don't have any health testing done on the dogs they are breeding (despite the testiment that prelims are done) or that will say it is OK for "THEM" to do only because "THEIR" breeding just had too many great qualities to let health testing stand in their way or that "they" knew what they were doing... aka excuses instead of just admitting it is their way of doing things....
> 
> There are breeders on here that will judge you that have also bred their dogs before they were 24 months of age and yes before any health testing was done either... so yeah... consider the source.
> 
> For any person looking for a good breeder ... there is a process that you may wish to look into.
> AKC and many clubs offer guidelines to look for in a breeder.
> This forum can give you many without ...WITHOUT... saying this person or that person is a good breeder... or a bad breeder.
> 
> but when people come on here naming a breeders name and asking for references or what not...
> 1. from past experience we have to wonder if it the breeder themselves brokering pups
> 2. If it is that breeders competition coming on here to trash talk.
> 3. If none of the above...then also keep in mind that Breeders are on here that are... or will be in the future.... or have friends that are selling pups.
> 
> It is like asking FORD for a reference on GM.
> 
> Instead I would like to focas on generic (rather than name calling which is so negative) facts in what to look for in a breeder and there are many great sources of information for a Puppy Buyer to source out and refer to.
> 
> Here are some that were brough up on this site before and of course we can also agree and disagree on these too... without offending anyone or engaging in any trash talking about 'anyone'.
> 
> http://www.akc.org/press_center/facts_stats.cfm?page=responsible_breeder
> 
> 
> *But basic things to consider like:*
> 
> Is all health testing completed?
> How and where are the pups raised ?
> Are their dogs bred to improve the breed and as such have titles ?
> What was the goal in breeding the parents (ie what qualities are they breeding for or what purpose)?
> Do they have experience with the breed and breeding (ie over 5 years)
> ARe both parents registered (AKC, CKC, UKC) make sure to view this
> Can you meet the parents
> Do the breeders have web pages (established)
> Does the breeder have the Pedigree and or know the COI of the breeding ?
> Does the breeder only sell pets with "limited" registration
> What is the guarantee and are YOU ok with that ?
> Does the breeder have photos of pups as adults to show you that tehy are evaluating their program and monitoring their program ?
> Does the breeder have References for you to read
> Does the breeder have full time employment outside the home to afford their hobby ?
> Does the breeder get back to you and answer questions within a timely manner ? as should there be problems you want to know that they are there for you.


Okay...colour me stupid, or curious, or whatever. I do not know a solitary thing about Frenchies Poodles, so am not going to give an opinion. But has anyone noticed that tinypoodles posts are remarkably like Bijoupoodles posts. Same writing style, same practices, same diatribes, I will seriously eat my desk if this is not Bijoupoodles, under yet another name posting from a work or library computer so the IP address is different. Hmmmm. I may be wrong, but I dont think so.


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> Pyometra can be devastating to an individual breeder, but waiting to breed benefits the overall population. Waiting gives Accidental breedings..... OK. It happens. But when bitches and dogs are consistently bred at a VERY young age, it starts to look like an established breeding pattern.
> 
> Frenchies said that they are learning and trying to do better (note... Zella was bred at 15 months at the end of last year, so this epiphany must have been a recent one). I think every breeder should continue to learn about the breed and its issues. However, best practices would once again be to learn as much as you could FIRST and then go forward with breeding, not visa versa.
> 
> As far as a set up? Frenchies stated that they don't breed their dogs before around age 2. That was clearly a false statement.


Okay now I understand where you are coming from ...
I agree that puppies as a rule , should not be bred either . I assumed from reading the emails that this was all WAAAAY in the past.....:doh:
My foundation bitch was 4 before we even considered breeding her .. 
Here is the definition of culling :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling
Which is why I was shocked to see the term used...
My grandfather god rest his soul used this practice in his hunting dog program in Ireland Many years ago and I think it is icky but do understand the need for it ...
LOL I did not think that you took Fluffy out and shot him behind the barn HA HA..
.


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## Cdnjennga

bigredpoodle said:


> I think that it should be against the rules of this forum to single out breeders. Because if anyone knows anything at all they are morally obligated to speak up.


So should it be against the rules for possible pup buyers to ask about breeders? Because that's what happened here. Someone asked about a breeder (twice now on this board) and others looked up information and shared it. It's now up to the pup buyer to decide what, if anything, they want to do with that information.


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## Keithsomething

Cdnjennga said:


> So should it be against the rules for possible pup buyers to ask about breeders? Because that's what happened here. Someone asked about a breeder (twice now on this board) and others looked up information and shared it. It's now up to the pup buyer to decide what, if anything, they want to do with that information.


I completely agree!!

I don't think anyone was passing judgment on this breeder though...they were just pointing out some things they thought were odd
when I find a breeder I like I will bring a topic of them up because I value the opinions of the people who show/breed/groom/ and own poodles on this forum


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> Poodle fanciers across the country have been appealing to Standard Poodle breeders to take a WAIT AND SEE approach. If Poodle breeders would cool their heels a bit and wait to breed until a Standard Poodle was at least over age 3 yrs then we would have a better chance of eliminating health disorders that we can not test for outright.


Very well said Cbrand, I totally agree with everything you stated in this post.

I looked it up last night and on average Addison's doesn't show up until the dog is 3 or 4 years old. People breeding around 12 months (and then back to back) could possibly have 2 to 3 litters on the ground from an Addisonian dog. That would be a real shame, as it's a horrible disease. And that's just one example of why it's better to wait to breed. There's too many issues with Standard Poodles to not be cautious.


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## bigredpoodle

Cdnjennga said:


> Very well said Cbrand, I totally agree with everything you stated in this post.
> 
> I looked it up last night and on average Addison's doesn't show up until the dog is 3 or 4 years old. People breeding around 12 months (and then back to back) could possibly have 2 to 3 litters on the ground from an Addisonian dog. That would be a real shame, as it's a horrible disease. And that's just one example of why it's better to wait to breed. There's too many issues with Standard Poodles to not be cautious.


What is even worse that breeding young, is all the breeders that are "Trading" And selling puppies outright "Full registration " that have no idea what they have ...
Why not take the "lets see what I have first approach" before selling to other breeders.. Think about that one ! Ther could be way more than three litters of affected puppies in a year ....Look at the example of the bloat issue !


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## roxy25

bigredpoodle said:


> What is even worse that breeding young, is all the breeders that are "Trading" And selling puppies outright "Full registration " that have no idea what they have ...
> Why not take the "lets see what I have first approach" before selling to other breeders.. Think about that one ! Ther could be way more than three litters of affected puppies in a year ....Look at the example of the bloat issue !


I do not understand what you mean ? Aren't you exporting Neelix to a breeder in sweden ? hwell:


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## Mercury's Mom

Wow, I had no idea that this would start such a tense conversation. I was attracted to Frenchies because her dogs are stunning and has a good reputation here in town. I am serious about what I want in a future show pup and wanted other people's takes on her program etc. I certainly never meant any offense to her or anyone else. I do appreciate everyone's imput as I am just learning and will take everything I learn into consideration. I have to take everything in and make the best decision I can to find the best quality pup I can afford from an ethical breeder. It's going to be a year or so before we get another spoo and want to use this time to learn everything I can.


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## bigredpoodle

roxy25 said:


> I do not understand what you mean ? Aren't you exporting Neelix to a breeder in sweden ? hwell:


Are you easily confused ? What is the mystery here? 
:doh:
Parents are adult and fully tested


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## KPoos

bigredpoodle said:


> Are you easily confused ? What is the mystery here?
> :doh:
> Parents are adult and fully tested


That was rude.hwell:


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## spoospirit

bigredpoodle said:


> Are you easily confused ? What is the mystery here?
> :doh:
> Parents are adult and fully tested


*PLEASE ASK YOUR QUESTIONS AND MAKE YOUR STATEMENTS IN A MORE POLITE WAY THAN THIS. Questions like this only serve to become contentious and start personal attacks on threads that only result in having to close them. In that, no one benefits.

This started very well with good debates from both points of view without conflict until now. I actually enjoyed this thread until this.*


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## Mercury's Mom

Can we all please just agree to dissagree? Im certain everyone is using their best judgement and are doing the best that they can. No two breeder can or will have the same thoughs or beliefs on anything so argueing etc will get no one anywhere. The only result will be hurt feelings and anger. *this is not directed at anyone but toward everyone, including myself*


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## bigredpoodle

_Originally Posted by roxy25 
I do not understand what you mean ? Aren't you exporting Neelix to a breeder in sweden _? 

I am confused why this was taken as rude ....Why does she even ask this question about my dogs personally, naming them ? I was generalizing and somehow it became all about me .... I was attacking no one nor was I arguing.....Sorry if it was taken that way...


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## spoospirit

*Thank you for your wisdom.*



Mercury's Mom said:


> Can we all please just agree to dissagree? Im certain everyone is using their best judgement and are doing the best that they can. No two breeder can or will have the same thoughs or beliefs on anything so argueing etc will get no one anywhere. The only result will be hurt feelings and anger. *this is not directed at anyone but toward everyone, including myself*


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## KPoos

bigredpoodle said:


> _Originally Posted by roxy25
> I do not understand what you mean ? Aren't you exporting Neelix to a breeder in sweden _?
> 
> I am confused why this was taken as rude ....Why does she even ask this question about my dogs personally, naming them ? I was generalizing and somehow it became all about me .... I was attacking no one nor was I arguing.....Sorry if it was taken that way...


What roxy posted wasn't rude, what you posted was rude. You were talking down to her and I find that rude as do others I'm sure.

I don't see what's wrong with naming Neelix. Anyone that's been around for at least 2 months knows who Neelix is.


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## Cdnjennga

Mercury's Mom said:


> I do appreciate everyone's imput as I am just learning and will take everything I learn into consideration. I have to take everything in and make the best decision I can to find the best quality pup I can afford from an ethical breeder. It's going to be a year or so before we get another spoo and want to use this time to learn everything I can.


You're making a great start! As a fellow puppy hunter, I have found there's so much to learn about poodles and poodle breeding. Good for you starting so early. And please don't be afraid to ask questions. It sometimes gets heated in here on the topic of breeding, but it's still worthwhile asking questions - or at least I have found it to be!

I find the Versatility in Poodles website to be very helpful in what to look for and out for in a breeder. Of course you can take what you want from it, but it's a good place to help formulate your opinions. 

http://www.vipoodle.org/docs/VIP_education.html


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## bigredpoodle

Cdngenna That was a nice way to put it .. 

Mercurys Mom Never be afraid to ask questions some of us are just pricklier than others or Passionate is another way to put it.....Sorry about that, I do get my Irish Up....


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## Mercury's Mom

I will certainly keep trying to learn and I do understand that sometimes personalities clash. Such is life. I really do appreciate the education I am getting here. I have a lot still to learn.


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## bigredpoodle

Mercury's Mom said:


> I will certainly keep trying to learn and I do understand that sometimes personalities clash. Such is life. I really do appreciate the education I am getting here. I have a lot still to learn.


Yes it is  There is so much to learn ....Especially in dogs ......


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## Poodle Lover

bigredpoodle said:


> and it is interesting that the thought about placing older dogs came up. I get calls all the time from Pet folks looking for a deal on an older retired show dog or retired breeding dog..
> WE do not personally do this , but why is this an issue?.... . Just curious......


I am curious too. I know a Havanese breeder that occasionally places her older, retired show dogs in pet homes. Some are still young, under the age of 2 or 3, others 4 to 6 years of age. This is a very reputable breeder that does all the health testing, all her show/breeding dogs are championed and she fully screens potential buyers. Of course, the dogs are spayed/neutered before they are placed. My friend just recently (about 6 months ago) bought a retired maltese female from a very well know breeder in Nor.Cal. This breeder's #1 criteria in placing her retired dogs is finding the right fit for her dog. Once she finds the right home, she only charges the price of spay or neuter and teeth cleaning. My friends female that she adopted was 3 years old and she paid either $350 or $450 can't remember, for her. My friend got an older, but not too old great dog for an awesome price (female maltese puppy from a reputable breeder is $2500 to $3000) and she didn't have to deal with puppyhood and potty training. By the way the dogs was a champion and only had one litter.
How is that a bad thing????


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## Cdnjennga

I think it's on a case by case basis. Obviously most people can only properly maintain so many dogs, so they may occasionally need to place dogs that don't fit into a breeding program. But if you see a breeder who has no older dogs and regularly places their adults after having a number of litters from then then IMO it's a red flag. Those dogs aren't pets first, breeders second, they're just breeders.

I think having some older dogs just indicates that you have dogs for another reason than just to breed from them. At least, that's my opinion.


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## KPoos

Cdnjennga said:


> I think it's on a case by case basis. Obviously most people can only properly maintain so many dogs, so they may occasionally need to place dogs that don't fit into a breeding program. But if you see a breeder who has no older dogs and regularly places their adults after having a number of litters from then then IMO it's a red flag. Those dogs aren't pets first, breeders second, they're just breeders.
> 
> *I think having some older dogs just indicates that you have dogs for another reason than just to breed from them. At least, that's my opinion.*


I think this is a good point. Many show breeders recycle dogs left and right and then if a pet person has a valid reason to rehome a dog they get a lot of flack for it.


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## Poodle Lover

Cdnjennga said:


> I think it's on a case by case basis. Obviously most people can only properly maintain so many dogs, so they may occasionally need to place dogs that don't fit into a breeding program. But if you see a breeder who has no older dogs and regularly places their adults after having a number of litters from then then IMO it's a red flag. Those dogs aren't pets first, breeders second, they're just breeders.
> 
> I think having some older dogs just indicates that you have dogs for another reason than just to breed from them. At least, that's my opinion.


I guess we can agree to disagree. I know that a lot of show breeders do breed for their next show dog and see nothing wrong with it. I would rather buy from a breeder whose main objective is to get that perfect dog for her to show, who health tests and puts titels on her dogs than from any other. And if they need to rehome some of their older dogs or dogs that didn't quite make it as a show dog, than it's a win-win situation. I would rather see that than a breeder that keeps too many dogs and doesn't have enough time for them or keeps them in a kennel. And the retired dog gets to be a well loved and spoiled pet and a center of someone's life, also a win situation for the dog.


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## Cdnjennga

Poodle Lover said:


> I guess we can agree to disagree.


Yes, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer here, it's all personal preference. I usually prefer small scale breeders who generally see their dogs as pets first and breeders second. Top producing breeders who regularly rehome their dogs most likely see their dogs as show competitors and producers first. And that's fine too, it's just not for me.


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## bigredpoodle

WE believe that a dog is a friend and companion first a show dog second, they are our bedmates and lap warmers.
We do not dream of leaving it up to the puppy buyers to rehome their dogs,,,, this is our option , not the puppy persons option to rehome ,,,,as the breeder we do reserve this right ..I think that you will find most high quality breeders will do this. And you will have to *sign a contract *agreeing to give the breeder this right....


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## Mercury's Mom

I think having the two different options of breeder types is a good thing because not every buyer is the same or looks for the same thing either. Personally, I would love to adopt an older show dog (if it wasn't kennel raised) but if I was looking for a puppy I would look for one of the breeders who dont rehome older dogs often when they are no longer useful to them, simply because I do want a breeder who is focused on temperment as a priority as well as health, standard, etc. Im sure many kennel breeders breed for temperment as well but I think it's harder to tell the true temperment of a dog when it doesn't live in the home. Just my humble oppinion. Diversity is a good thing however.


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## Fluffyspoos

Just updating as I see..

Frenchies Standard Poodles Available Puppies

Planned litter with a male that's not even a year old yet..

Frenchies Standard Poodles Red Gang

If you looked at the first thread, you can see that I really used to like this breeder lol however, I have educated myself.


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## Fluffyspoos

The page has been removed  so we'll see if that litter happens or now


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## CT Girl

Very informative thread Fluffyspoos. Thank you for the update. I can see why you were interested before doing more research. They are very pretty poodles.


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## Fluffyspoos

It really is a shame, her dogs are gorgeous. I wish she would do things right, she showed before, why stop? Why breed young dogs?


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## CT Girl

It really is a shame. Perhaps it is a money thing and perhaps she does not want to devote the time it would take.


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## zyrcona

Fluffyspoos said:


> Planned litter with a male that's not even a year old yet..


It's not _good_, but it's not unheard of. It's not possible to do some health assessments, such as hip scoring, on a dog this young, so this means the dog isn't fully tested. Breeding a bitch this age would be considered by most reasonable people to be very irresponsible, but the dog doesn't have to give birth to and nourish the puppies, so this is seen as far less heinous. I've seen successful breeders who don't need to advertise breed immature males with no or incomplete health testing, but people tend not to notice, because, well, they don't advertise.

But I agree. She has some beautiful dogs, and customers will still want them if she waited until the dogs were mature. Why treat them like this?

(Edit: I watched the video at the bottom of the page about the reds and my own dog leapt up at the bark near the start. They look like happy dogs in a nice environment. I hope the kennel owner will reconsider waiting until they are old enough to have all the proper tests before breeding them.)


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## Wranglingpoos

I think you have made a mistake or mis understood, I stated It was just a thought about breeding this pair, the male in question is a year old this month (and has had his testing done Pennhip, CERF, VWD and blood work)and I have no intentions of breeding him until the bitch comes in season..and if he is not old enough then I won't, like I said if you would have read the page it was just a anticipated breeding NOT planned...I think I have learned about breeding to young after the last go around my name was brought up (although no one ask why, accidents do happen), I assure that we have all made mistakes and that is how at least how I have learned to be a better breeder....I'm on this forum to learn and even help others I would never pass judgement on any one I have not met in person or at least now from emails and phone conversations, we all have different ethics on breeding, and I hope we can all agree to disagree, I love my poodles and I'm in it for life, I enjoy being breeder I have done it most my adult life, even showing a few standards, I have never breed for the money! I assure you I and my husband have plenty of finances to properly care for our poodle program and do not depend on the monies from puppies, I'm staying on the forum in hopes to find friends who can talk and possible give advice to me and not judge me with out knowing me, you are all welcome to visit my home if your ever in the area or even a message or a phone call to talk,


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## zyrcona

Wranglingpoos said:


> I think you have made a mistake or mis understood, I stated It was just a thought about breeding this pair, the male in question is a year old this month (and has had his testing done Pennhip, CERF, VWD and blood work)and I have no intentions of breeding him until the bitch comes in season..and if he is not old enough then I won't, like I said if you would have read the page it was just a anticipated breeding NOT planned...I think I have learned about breeding to young after the last go around my name was brought up (although no one ask why, accidents do happen), I assure that we have all made mistakes and that is how at least how I have learned to be a better breeder....I'm on this forum to learn and even help others I would never pass judgement on any one I have not met in person or at least now from emails and phone conversations, we all have different ethics on breeding, and I hope we can all agree to disagree, I love my poodles and I'm in it for life, I enjoy being breeder I have done it most my adult life, even showing a few standards, I have never breed for the money! I assure you I and my husband have plenty of finances to properly care for our poodle program and do not depend on the monies from puppies, I'm staying on the forum in hopes to find friends who can talk and possible give advice to me and not judge me with out knowing me, you are all welcome to visit my home if your ever in the area or even a message or a phone call to talk,


I am glad it was a misunderstanding then.  They look like nice dogs.


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## Wranglingpoos

Thanks a bunch for your understanding Zyrcona!


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## Fluffyspoos

Wranglingpoos said:


> Thanks a bunch for your understanding Zyrcona!


Why did you stop showing? Why breed unproven dogs? You're just breeding for color, not comformation.


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## Wranglingpoos

I haven't stopped showing just taking a break, I breed for more then just color, color to me is just a bonus, I breed with the whole dog in mind, health, beauty, confirmation, AKC standard size poodles with personality and a good disposition, I do lots of research on pedigrees to produce low COI, I plan on maybe showing some reds in the future, altho I have good quality dogs I do like mine to go to pet/companion homes with limited registration.


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## Fluffyspoos

I really do hope you decide to show and prove your dogs. Like I said, I really do love your dogs, but I can't justify buying from someone that doesn't really prove that their dogs are good quality.

Would be fun to see you showing at the Farmington Fair grounds for the UKC shows at the end of June.


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## Wranglingpoos

have a good time at the show, maybe next time...


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