# Help is she a pure toy poodle!



## Feniangod (Mar 31, 2021)

Hi. I recently became owner of this 8 week puppy which was advertised a full bred toy poodle 
I
The reason I'm suspicious is that on of her ears sticks up! Can anyone help!


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Isn’t she adorable 😊 
I’d guess she might have a little bit of Pomeranian in her. Mostly poodle.


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## Evenstar (Mar 9, 2021)

Based on her erect ears, she is definitely not purebred poodle. She is adorable though. I'm sorry this person took advantage of your trust.


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## Brownie_mom (Dec 1, 2020)

OMG, what a cute face!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I work in a vet clinic and see sooooo many pets that are not as advertised...
One of the worst being a "schnauzer" that the new owner DNA tested and turned out to be a Mastiff/Shepherd/Husky/etc mix....
Unless you see see the pups with the mom, and get a picture or meet the dad, I'm always suspicious! And even then...
Your pup is cute but looks like there might be some Yorkie or something else in it... Hopefully you didn't require a purebred due to allergies... Otherwise, enjoy her as she is!


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

She is adorable and to my naked eye, she looks like a Yorker/poodle mix. did I mention she is adorable! just don’t waste your money on the DNA test!!!


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Does she have KC papers?


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## JJ❤cavaliers (Mar 24, 2021)

She's very cute! I don't believe she's a pure poodle though, although she looks mostly poodle. I think I see some pomeranian in her. Unfortunately, you've been ripped off. The best way to tell would be through a DNA test. Anyway, congrats on your new puppy!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I doubt she’s a pure poodle. I would bet on poodle/yorkie mix. Very cute !


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

She's adorable. Her partially upright ears suggest something other than a poodle is in the family line. I bet those ears are going to be so expressive and cute when she grows up.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a cute puppy.  I’ve used both Embark and Wisdom Panel for DNA tests. They can be a lot of fun for mixed breeds, and can also give you a heads up about potential health issues.


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## 5girls1guy&apoodle (Jun 12, 2016)

I don’t think it’s very nice that so many people say they are selling a particular breed and then give you something else. You probably paid a lot of money too. I’ve never seen a purebred poodle with ears that stand up. She is a very cute puppy though! I hope you can still enjoy her even if she isn’t 100% poodle.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I would guess yorkie/poodle mix, but doing the DNA test would give you your answers. You could then submit the evidence to the breeder and ask for an explanation.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Poodle Lover said:


> She is adorable and to my naked eye, she looks like a Yorker/poodle mix. did I mention she is adorable! just don’t waste your money on the DNA test!!!


Why not? Embark is super accurate and not a waste of money in the slightest.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Ava. said:


> Why not? Embark is super accurate and not a waste of money in the slightest.


I have seen so many people do the DNA test that come back with the results that just make you scratch your head. Unless the original poster is planning to go after the breeder, save the money and spend it on something that the puppy needs.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poodle Lover said:


> I have seen so many people do the DNA test that come back with the results that just make you scratch your head. Unless the original poster is planning to go after the breeder, save the money and spend it on something that the puppy needs.


The health results alone are worth it, in my opinion. And I’ve had good luck with the breed results, too. Plus, if you can spare the cash, it’s just plain fun.  I love seeing Peggy’s relatives on Embark.

@Feniangod, have you reached out to the person who sold you your puppy, to ask for some clarification of her breed(s)/background? Is the seller the breeder?

Tilly is really very, very cute. I hope she’s settling in nicely.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Here’s a little story for you. My friend bought Purebred Yorkshire Terriers from a lady with papers. I saw the dogs and instantly said they are Silky Terrier. I bought a puppy from a litter of my friends. My friend swore up and down her dogs are Yorkie. I DNA tested Lucy and she is actually a Silky Terrier with 20% poodle. So I do know that so called reputable breeders are not so reputable as they seem. Lucy is a beautiful Silky Terrier..💞


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Darling Darla said:


> Here’s a little story for you. My friend bought Purebred Yorkshire Terriers from a lady with papers. I saw the dogs and instantly said they are Silky Terrier. I bought a puppy from a litter of my friends. My friend swore up and down her dogs are Yorkie. I DNA tested Lucy and she is actually a Silky Terrier with 20% poodle. So I do know that so called reputable breeders are not so reputable as they seem. Lucy is a beautiful Silky Terrier..💞
> View attachment 475236


Did the dog have a pedigree? If so you should report that.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

curlflooffan said:


> Did the dog have a pedigree? If so you should report that.


Yes the dogs my friend bought were CKC dogs and had a nice pedigree. The dogs did not match the paperwork. CKC has been notified. That line was not registered for many years and somehow these Silkys ended up with Yorkie papers. Buyers need to do their homework.


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## Rupert's Poodle (Feb 27, 2021)

Hey I knew someone who bought "Boston terriers" through a newspaper ad. They were pits with docked tails.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Darling Darla said:


> Yes the dogs my friend bought were CKC dogs and had a nice pedigree. The dogs did not match the paperwork. CKC has been notified. That line was not registered for many years and somehow these Silkys ended up with Yorkie papers. Buyers need to do their homework.


I had a playdate with my breeder when Basil was ~6 months and the breeder mentioned how people tried to do that to one of her friends in her breeder social circle... Like fake paper work sort of thing. (_Sigh_) As though there wasn't enough to be worried about I this world.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> I had a playdate with my breeder when Basil was ~6 months and the breeder mentioned how people tried to do that to one of her friends in her breeder social circle... Like fake paper work sort of thing. (_Sigh_) As though there wasn't enough to be worried about I this world.


Yes. That’s why in my opinion a person should buy the dog they want from people that they are completely comfortable with. I know way too much about Breeders of many different breeds. I am a great listener and know what questions to ask. When I was searching for Charlie Brown I talked with a few terrible people and didn’t purchase anything from them. Sent me pictures of the parents and I could see the dogs were kennel dogs and not pets. Multiple breeds also that they disclosed after we chatted more. Lots of dogs needing homes. I love them all. ❤🐶


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Darling Darla said:


> Yes the dogs my friend bought were CKC dogs and had a nice pedigree. The dogs did not match the paperwork. CKC has been notified. That line was not registered for many years and somehow these Silkys ended up with Yorkie papers. Buyers need to do their homework.


Well thats concerning. Here I thought the dutch were being paranoid by sending inspectors to breeders and taking DNA tests. Perhaps they are on to something. 

Yes but you are right its important that puppy buyers understand what a pedigree means and what it doesnt mean. But honestly I feel like your example goes beyond buyers beware. That was just outright intentional fraud.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

curlflooffan said:


> Well thats concerning. Here I thought the dutch were being paranoid by sending inspectors to breeders and taking DNA tests. Perhaps they are on to something.
> 
> Yes but you are right its important that puppy buyers understand what a pedigree means and what it doesnt mean. But honestly I feel like your example goes beyond buyers beware. That was just outright intentional fraud.


In reality there’s as many honest breeders as there are dishonest in my opinion.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Much depends on the testing entity's sample database for breed identification:

"While some problems can result in merely underestimating the percentage of mutt’s ancestry that derives from a specific breed, other problems can prevent the correct breed from being identified at all. The most substantial of these problems is the absence of true ancestral breed from the reference dataset (Figure 9).

Because breed ancestry is inferred by comparing chunks of mutt DNA to purebred dogs of known breeds, if a breed is absent from the reference dataset, that breed simply cannot be detected, even if it contributed a very large fraction of a mutt’s DNA.

This issue will ultimately be solved only through inclusion of reference genomes from recognized breeds; in the meantime, if you are interested in knowing whether your dog has ancestry from a specific rare breed, it is important to make sure your breed ancestry company of choice is able to check for that breed.

For those who decide to proceed with ancestry inference even though the breed of interest is known to be absent from the reference set, it is important to keep in mind that the absence of that breed from the list of inferred ancestors provides no information as to whether the mutt truly lacks that particular ancestry.

The mutations selected for genotyping also determine which breed ancestries can be accurately identified in a mixed-breed dog. Genotyping arrays tend to include more mutations present in common breeds. This means that chunks of chromosomes from poodles and German shepherds may be especially easy to identify because many of the mutations common in these breeds are assayed on genotyping arrays.

While many mutations could help identify chunks of DNA from rare breeds such as New Guinea singing dogs or Skye terriers, some of these mutations may not be represented on widely-used genotyping arrays, which could make these breeds harder to identify.

This problem will eventually be solved by creating breed reference datasets with sequence data, which would allow for the interpretation of many more mutations and would not be biased toward detection of ancestry from specific breeds.

A mutt’s relationship to its purebred ancestors also affects the reliability of breed determination. In particular, it is easier to identify the breed ancestry of DNA from a purebred ancestor who is a close relative (such as a parent) because mutations from recent ancestors will reside in longer chunks of DNA with more informative mutations.

For example, while the first mutation observed on a mutt’s chromosome may be common in both Labradors and Golden Retrievers, perhaps the first, second, and third mutations observed are only seen together in Golden Retrievers. DNA contributed by ancestors from many generations back will exist as only short chromosome chunks, with fewer mutations to help identify their contribution to the mutt’s ancestry, making inference more difficult.

This issue can be mitigated by using data from sequencing instead of genotyping, allowing for all mutations to be analyzed. However, DNA inherited from many generations back can be in chromosome chunks so short that it will not contain chromosome chunks characteristic of a specific breed, such that the breed’s contributions to a mutt’s ancestry cannot be detected even with whole-genome data (Li et al., 2014)."

quoted from:

How Accurate Are Dog DNA Tests? Insights & Challenges | The IAABC Journal

A level of identification is possible, and will become more accurate as more breeds are entered in the database and by using a different method.

I did the AncestryDNA test in late 2018. They noted that my DNA results may change as more information is available for comparison. I have already had two updates which changed my general Ireland and Scotland genetics to a more specific North East Scotland & the Northern Isles. As the database grows the information will evolve. The DNA information on dogs is growing as it is for humans.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Darling Darla said:


> Yes the dogs my friend bought were CKC dogs and had a nice pedigree. The dogs did not match the paperwork. CKC has been notified. That line was not registered for many years and somehow these Silkys ended up with Yorkie papers. Buyers need to do their homework.


Sadly, KC, CKC, and AKC "papers" can be purchased. The puppy mills in the USA are notorious for providing AKC registrations that are not for the puppy being sold. FYI - a pedigree is NOT a kennel club registration.


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## Darling Darla (Sep 20, 2020)

Johanna said:


> Sadly, KC, CKC, and AKC "papers" can be purchased. The puppy mills in the USA are notorious for providing AKC registrations that are not for the puppy being sold. FYI - a pedigree is NOT a kennel club registration.


I know a pedigree is not registration..The reality is it’s buyer beware.


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