# Mini poodle for service work?



## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Hi there, welcome! Have you happened to have been to a dog show where you can see and meet many prospective breeds? Or a meet the breeds event? That may help you decide. Minis are hearty little dogs, I think it would be good if you were able to get your hands on one and feel how stocky they are . They do match the characteristics you list but of course temperament wise, that will be something you’ll want to work closely with a breeder and trainer to copper the right dog for you.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

A poodle's coat grows like a sheep because they don't shed and need to get groomed ~6 weeks.

What is your plan to do for cutting hair? Professional groomer or doing it at home? Or... ? What's your game plan about coat care?


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## Icarus redwings (7 mo ago)

Phaz23 said:


> Hi there, welcome! Have you happened to have been to a dog show where you can see and meet many prospective breeds? Or a meet the breeds event? That may help you decide. Minis are hearty little dogs, I think it would be good if you were able to get your hands on one and feel how stocky they are . They do match the characteristics you list but of course temperament wise, that will be something you’ll want to work closely with a breeder and trainer to copper the right dog for you.


Unfortunately there is not many dog shows near me unless they are 5 hours away. Currently I can not drive (im 8 months away from getting my licneces due to my physical condition since I ave medication for it now) but from what ive seen and researched they seem like a good fit. The only thing im worried is they might be too small. Im 6'2 so even at the highest hight of 15 inches its still a bit small.


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

Icarus redwings said:


> Unfortunately there is not many dog shows near me unless they are 5 hours away. Currently I can not drive (im 8 months away from getting my licneces due to my physical condition since I ave medication for it now) but from what ive seen and researched they seem like a good fit. The only thing im worried is they might be too small. Im 6'2 so even at the highest hight of 15 inches its still a bit small.


Have you considered the Moyen or Klein poodle. That seems to fit the size range you're looking for better. 15 to 20". Highly trainable non shedding hypoallergenic. Extremely intelligent highly trainable proven in service work. Very versatile breed should like water they are all water dogs. The Moyen or Klein size is pretty rare in the USA. Finding a good breeder can be difficult . Not sure where you're located but Karbit poodles in Texas I've heard good things. A note about showing Moyen is not a recognized size by the AKC. I'm sure a few others will chime in that are more familiar with Moyen breeders.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

Heartland2022 said:


> Have you considered the Moyen or Klein poodle. That seems to fit the size range you're looking for better. 15 to 20". Highly trainable non shedding hypoallergenic. Extremely intelligent highly trainable proven in service work. Very versatile breed should like water they are all water dogs. The Moyen or Klein size is pretty rare in the USA. Finding a good breeder can be difficult . Not sure where you're located but Karbit poodles in Texas I've heard good things. A note about showing Moyen is not a recognized size by the AKC. I'm sure a few others will chime in that are more familiar with Moyen breeders.
> View attachment 494236


Good idea! Also I’ve seen many standard breeders (especially performance -minded ones) lean towards this smaller size and will list it in their litter announcements.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Heartland2022 said:


> Have you considered the Moyen or Klein poodle. That seems to fit the size range you're looking for better. 15 to 20". Highly trainable non shedding hypoallergenic. Extremely intelligent highly trainable proven in service work. Very versatile breed should like water they are all water dogs. The Moyen or Klein size is pretty rare in the USA. Finding a good breeder can be difficult . Not sure where you're located but Karbit poodles in Texas I've heard good things. A note about showing Moyen is not a recognized size by the AKC. I'm sure a few others will chime in that are more familiar with Moyen breeders.


This would be a great choice but I'd be truly surprised if there are more than 10 breeders in the US that are importing the true FCI medium poodle rather than breeding a standard to a miniature and calling their poodles "moyen".

The medium size range isn't 15"-20", a completely understandable assumption, just not what they truly are.

The FCI is the only registry that has the medium variety and the range is 13.78"-17.7".

In the US, this means any miniature up to the 15" of the US registries is "technically" a medium poodle by size. Miniatures do go oversize, probably more often than you'll find a small standard under 20".

Heartland mentioned the reasons that a medium poodle is a hard ask. Quality breeders show their dogs to prove that they meet breed standards. There is no medium class for them to compete in.
Toys have an upper limit, miniatures have a lower and upper limit, and standards have only a lower limit. For each variety there seems to be a preferred range in competition but that desired 15"-20" is more of a no-mans-land.

One of our members, Pavie, has created these amazing breakdowns for us of the range of some PF poodles. None of our current members standards are less than 22" or much under 40lbs.
The miniatures range up to Hugo and Beau, both about 18" and about 25lbs. They and the other miniatures over 15" are referred to as "oversized".













































The additional difficulty in targeting a height for a specific purpose is that no matter how diligent a breeder is, genetics will have its little jokes on us.

My boys are intervariety, oversize toy bred to a small miniature (not recommended except by very knowledgeable breeders and done for a specific purpose). Both dam and sire were in the 11"-12" range. Both boys have grown taller than either by 2 or so inches.

Approx 14" Neo at kitchen counter, kitchen table, and with 5'9" poodad.


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## Heartland2022 (8 mo ago)

Oh my goodness look at that lil one go 🥰


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I was thinking on your original post in this thread and was reminded of something I posted in another. It's about discerning temperament for different types of tasks that dogs do for/with humans.

Brian Hare has studied and written of dogs' cognitive abilities and our mutual evolution. One of the types of cognition is when a dog looks to a human to help solve a problem .

This is just one example.

The backstory is working with Labs that were being bred, one set for the military to sniff out incendiary devices and one set for canine companion helpers.

Excerpt from the Washington Post

_Hare devised a test that could tell them apart in two or three minutes. It’s a test that’s intentionally impossible for the dog to solve — what Star Trek fans would recognize as the Kobayashi Maru. In Hare’s version, the dog was at first able to get a reward from inside a container whose lid was loosely secured and easy to dislodge; then, the reward was placed inside the same container with the lid locked and unable to be opened. Just as Starfleet was trying to figure out what a captain’s character would lead him to do in a no-win situation, Hare’s team was watching whether the dog kept trying to solve the test indefinitely or looked to a human for help.
“What we found is that the dogs that ask for help are fantastic at the assistance-dog training, and the dogs that persevere and try to solve the problem no matter what are ideal for the detector training,” Hare said. “It’s not testing to see which dog is smart or dumb. What we’ve been able to show is that some of these measures tell you what jobs these dogs would be good at.”_
How dogs think, learn, communicate and problem-solve - The Washington Post 

I posted this for you for when you start looking at prospects. The breeder is ideally doing temperament testing and at least helping in the selection process. 

I've looked at both the Volhard (which I now feel needs some language updating at a minimum...jmo) and the AKC testing. They are looking at important elements but not what's described in the excerpt from WaPo above. 

That testing is to discover types of cognitive ability. The findings suggest that dogs who look to humans to help them solve a problem are generally more suited to assistance training. 

If you take the time to read thru the short article linked you'll get a better feel for why.


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