# Red parents, black puppy?



## elstrong

I'm relatively new to breeding and am loving it. Today my red girl, Roxy had a black puppy(my fourth litter). This is the first time I've bred red poodles(toy) and can't find alot of info about them. At least I can't find the answer to my question.

How did 2 red poodles breed and produce a black puppy? I have 5 generation research pedigrees on both of them and there are not black poodles within 5 generations. Is it because, further generations back there must have been at least one black poodle?

Thanks for any input.

Eleanor


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

This is going to sound like a really stupid question, but are you absolutely certain both dogs are red? Could one be brown? My matriarch's first breeding, prior to me owning her, she was bred to a brown. She is red. Because both of these colours are recessive, she produced a litter of ten black puppies. This is a puzzle.


----------



## peppersb

There is a very interesting chart here:
VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia

Note that when they say cream, they mean red, apricot, cream or white.

The chart suggests that a red (or cream) BBee bred to a brown bbEE would produce an all black litter. Blacks are also possible in other brown-red breedings. But interestingly, the chart indicates that if a cream (e.g., red) is bred to a cream, the result will always be cream. So I am also wondering if it is possible that one of your reds is genetically a brown? I don't know much about this, but find it interesting. A lot of forum members know a lot more than I do. Maybe they have comments?


----------



## zyrcona

elstrong said:


> I'm relatively new to breeding and am loving it. Today my red girl, Roxy had a black puppy(my fourth litter). This is the first time I've bred red poodles(toy) and can't find alot of info about them. At least I can't find the answer to my question.
> 
> How did 2 red poodles breed and produce a black puppy? I have 5 generation research pedigrees on both of them and there are not black poodles within 5 generations. Is it because, further generations back there must have been at least one black poodle?
> 
> Thanks for any input.
> 
> Eleanor


Hi Eleanor. Red is a recessive colour, so it's not possible for two red dogs to produce black puppies. The parents are both ee and a black dog would have to be Ee, so there's nowhere for the E allele to come from. ArreauStandardPoodle's suggestion that one of the dogs may be brown (cafés can sometimes have a very reddish appearance while they are clearing) may be true. The only other explanations I can think of are that there is a mutation of the e gene to E (extremely unlikely, although not impossible) or very unfortunately that an unknown black or brown dog may have got to your bitch while she was in heat without you knowing. You can get a genetic paternity test to confirm or disprove this if you are concerned.


----------



## elstrong

*some info I've collected*

Thanks ArreauStandardPoodle, peppersb and zyrcona for responding.
I talked to my vet, who talked to a long time breeder of reds. He told me that now and then breeders of reds would mate a black poodle with one of thier reds to keep the points a dark black and darken the red color. This may have happened in the generations beyond what the parents pedigrees show. According to him my black puppie is called a black-factor red. He suggested that she would be invaluable to my breeding program because she has the red genes.

Another possibility - I found that in the fifth generation of my sire's pedigree there was a brown poodle. Could that cause the black puppy? I don't know.

I do know that I was very careful to let the females out to potty separate from the males. The rest of the time my males were in a pen. The back yard is fenced in and I go out and watch them when their outside. My female could have gone out without me as we have a doggie door. But they usually go out as a group with me (it's a big event!) and again my back yard is fenced in and beyond it I have a couple of acres. I have not seen a stray dog in the 10 years I've lived here.

I think I like my vets explanation best.  what do you all think?

Eleanor


----------



## peppersb

Zyrcona's explanation is the one that makes the most sense to me and it is quite consistent with the chart that I found. Two red parents would both be ee. So neither of them could contribute the E that is necessary to make a black puppy. I don't think it matters how far you go back in the pedigree. Two ee's cannot produce an Ee.

My puppy is cream and both of her parents were black. So she got both e's from parents that were Ee. That makes her an ee. If she was bred to another cream or red (ee), she could not produce a black even though both of her parents are black. I'm pretty sure that's how it works. Zyrcona who has studied this much more than I have could correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## lavillerose

My parent's black Spoo Pepper had a Red sire and a Brown Dam, who the breeders said always threw black puppies. 

That confused me too, especailly since my parents swore up and down the female was red as well, but I guess she was simply a very red toned brown (or my parents just don't know the difference). And looking back in the pedigree, there's black not too far down the line on both sides (along with ever other color under the sun!) But black is always dominant in dogs, so if its there somewhere, it'll usually show back up.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

This is something interesting and quoted from VetGen that seems to explain the black puppies in these red breedings: 

*"For example, if your results show that your dogs genotype is a Type Bbee, your dog is cream, white, apricot or red and has a black nose, the dog is carrying the hidden genes for black and brown. If you were to mate this dog with a dog of the genotype bbEE, on the average, half of the Litter would would be black and the other half of the litter would be brown. "*

http://www.poodles-in-scandinavia.com/vetgen.htm

So, my question is, was one of the "red" parents of liver pigment? If so, likely this is a brown. I can attest to the fact that some browns appear very similar to liver pigmented reds.


----------



## elstrong

Lavillerose I thought what you said. If the black is in the genealogy it can pop up. So I've been researching. While it is true that ee and ee will not produce Ee or EE, if there is an EE in the DNA, from any ancestor, it can pair with the e and show up as Ee in the offspring. Any color that is in the background of a dog can show up. They are called hidden genes. I have a quote from VetGen that says just that. 

VetGen DNA CHROMAGENE Coat Color Testing

..... Due to the complex interactions of these genes, it is possible for dogs to carry hidden colors which may appear in their offspring. 

That is the reason that a child may have great-grandma's red hair even if neither of it's parents have red hair. One of the parents carries the gene, which he or she got from hid/her grandmother, for red hair. That gene can take it's place in the pairing at any time and if there are 2 of them, produce red hair in the person who inherits those 2 red hair genes. 

I guess I should have done the research instead of asking others to do it. I was just so shook up.

Eleanor


----------



## elstrong

Thanks Chocolate Millie,
I checked out the link you provided and could see how a black and red mating could produce what's called a black/red hybrid carrying both e and E and BB or Bb. If the hybrid is then mated with another red, now the 2 e's and b's needed to produce red offspring are present and the E. That ofspring, though red would still be carrying at least 1 E(a hidden color or gene) and every generation after her would carry the E. All you need is one E to produce a black offspring and that E could pop up in any pairing. Since there are so many b's and e's in the mix the more generations of reds are added to the gene pool, the more likely the matings would produce bbee or red. But you never know when that hidden E will pop up in the pairing of genes from each parent. And when it does you have a black puppy.

That's what I got from that link. Am I right? or just more confused


----------



## elstrong

oh Chocolate Millie,

Both of my reds have black points. However AKC will accept brown points on a red poodle though it is less desirable.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

elstrong said:


> oh Chocolate Millie,
> 
> Both of my reds have black points. However AKC will accept brown points on a red poodle though it is less desirable.


I know this. .


----------



## peppersb

lavillerose said:


> My parent's black Spoo Pepper had a Red sire and a Brown Dam, who the breeders said always threw black puppies.
> 
> That confused me too, especailly since my parents swore up and down the female was red as well, but I guess she was simply a very red toned brown (or my parents just don't know the difference). And looking back in the pedigree, there's black not too far down the line on both sides (along with ever other color under the sun!) But black is always dominant in dogs, so if its there somewhere, it'll usually show back up.


If you look at the vetgen chart that both Chocloate Millie and I posted, you will see that there are a couple of ways that a red sire and a brown dam can produce black. For example a brown dam that is bbEe and a red sire that is Bbee would be expected to produce a litter that is 1/4 black, 1/4 brown and 1/2 red, apricot, cream or white (when the chart says "cream" they mean red, apricot, cream or white). If the red sire was BBee, then 1/2 black and 1/2 red, apricot, cream or white would be expected.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Lavillerose, my brown girl looks red/apricot EVEN to some red breeders, so I'd say it's very reasonable and possible that your parents could have mistaken a reddish brown as a red/apricot with liver pigment! Though, if the pigment was black, it couldn't have been a brown.


----------



## Carley's Mom

On my hunt for an adult Standard, I was sent a photo of a bunch of puppies for sale. They all looked the same age, but there was every color in the lot... I replied to the sender that I was not interested in a puppy at this time, and was surprised at all the colors. I asked if they were from one litter. The sender did not reply. So tell me can on litter produce all the differant colors? I find this stuff so interesting, even though I will never become a breeder .


----------



## 3dogs

I don't know the color genetics but I did learn that weird things do pop up.

I had a new client that said she had a Maltese. This dog looked everything Maltese except it was solid "BLACK" yup how does a Maltese who are pure white for generations come up Black. I thought that the dog must have been mixed with something to get the Black. I posted on a "board" & what did I find out from Knowledgeable breeders- that "BLACK" can pop up in the Maltese line even after plenty of generations of solid white. It is just a throw back gene. Infrequent but it does happen. 

Now as far as poodles you might have a pedigree that "says" you have an all "RED" lineage for 5 generations now unless you have breed all 5 of these generations then "breeders" often have no idea what color is at hand. This is NOT to insult the fantastice breeders of Poodles out there but more of your BYB, millers, 1st timers etc.... I have a "breeder" down the street that I have groomed some of her Pups, I groomed one of her sires in a grooming competition. They are nice dogs BUT she has NO idead about color & will put down Whatever the new owner wants or her best guess on the papers. She currently has 2 Phantom Pups that I don't know what color they will be BUT I think they will be Siver & Cream Phantoms but she had down Black & Cream & they were already turning brown, black, silver in their coats so I know for a fact they weren't going to be Black & Cream. She also sells her Poodles based on Charted weight not on height. So she begins with charting at "Tiny Toy" size of 4-4.5lbs & sells accordingly. I wrote a note the last time 5 of her pus were in that 2 were already Mini size meaning they were over 11" & 1 was at the 10" mark & would go over the "Toy" height. But she still sells based on weight. She also will sell for more expense because of the "Champion" breed in her line. Which 1 sire has 1 Champion like 3-4 generations back. Go figure.

I suggest you find as many pictures as possible of the 5 generations & see who ended up being "red" & who ended up being other colors of the rainbow.


----------



## elstrong

3 Dogs,
I hope that never become one of those "breeders". I know I'm new at this, but I won't be new at it forever. It is my desire to build a good reputation based on good quality, well socialized and healthy puppies. I read and discuss issues with experienced breeders. I love what I'm doing and being retired, have time to throw myself into it. My poodles all live in the house with me and are not kennel dogs. I do keep a tight rein on them, using pens and pet taxis, when girls are in heat. I teach them tricks and give them treats and do all I can to keep them healthy and happy. I am so tickled to have puppies in the house again. I haven't made alot of money but that's not the bottom line anyway.

You said much better than I did, that there are throwback genes. I got my dogs from well known reputable breeders and paid well for them. Yes, they have champions in their lineages and yes at least the last 4 generations are all red in both their pedigrees. I'm really trying to do it right. 

I think I really peeved several of you dear people, and I'm sorry. I don't think that you're ignorant, Chocolate Millie. I probably went a little crazy because I was freaked out at the thought of another dog getting my Roxy and I was very tired. I'll try to be more pleasant from now on. I don't want poodle people to stop talking to me! I need you all.
Eleanor


----------



## 3dogs

elstrong- we all start from somewhere & you are doing right by researching the pedigrees, asking questions & getting answers. I still think you need to look at Photo's of as many in the 5 generations as you can. I wish I could with my Spoo but he is a rescue & I have only found a few pictures with my OT/mini (I groom the sire & dam). But through my own research on my Louisa's pedigree I have found descrepnecies. 

I think many people have pointed out really good clues as to the "black" pup in the litter. It will be interesting to see what comes up. Have you searched "Poodle Pedigree" database for more clues.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

elstrong said:


> I think I really peeved several of you dear people, and I'm sorry. I don't think that you're ignorant, Chocolate Millie. I probably went a little crazy because I was freaked out at the thought of another dog getting my Roxy and I was very tired. I'll try to be more pleasant from now on. I don't want poodle people to stop talking to me! I need you all.
> Eleanor


Elstrong, I wasn't thinking at all that you weren't trying to do things right. I was thinking strictly in terms of genetics when I asked about having liver pigmented red. I don't know anything about your breeding practices and wouldn't try to judge you at all. I am sure you have done a wonderful job. Again, my brain was only thinking of genetics. That's all!


----------



## zyrcona

elstrong said:


> If the black is in the genealogy it can pop up. So I've been researching. While it is true that ee and ee will not produce Ee or EE, if there is an EE in the DNA, from any ancestor, it can pair with the e and show up as Ee in the offspring. Any color that is in the background of a dog can show up. They are called hidden genes.


While the Vetgen quote is correct, this isn't the way the gene for black works. When a dog is conceived, it gets one allele at each locus from each parent. So if your sire is black, EE, and your dam is red, ee, you get an e from your mother's egg and an E from your father's sperm, and you are Ee, i.e. black carrying an apricot spectrum colour and with the potential to produce apricot spectrum puppies if you are bred with an apricot spectrum mate or another Ee dog.

If you're red and ee, it doesn't matter if your mother, your father, or any other ancestor was Ee or even EE. You got e and e, and there's nowhere else for an E to go -- if you had inherited it, you would be black (or brown) because it's dominant.

What can happen is that an e can spontaneously mutate to E during meiosis (the type of cell division that makes eggs and sperm out of the parents' DNA), which is presumably what happened in the Maltese, although this is uncommon. This may also have happened in your dog.

It may also be that one of your dogs is brown, as others have mentioned. Some brown spectrum colours can look very red, but a brown dog will always have a brown nose. (A red dog may also have a brown nose.) Brown is caused by black (EE or Ee) with a recessive gene (bb) that causes the eumelanin on the dog to be in a brown rather than black form. Because b is recessive, a brown dog will always produce either black (Bb Ee&EE) or eeBb (apricot spectrum) dogs when bred _unless _the mate is or carries brown (bb or Bb).



elstrong said:


> ..... Due to the complex interactions of these genes, it is possible for dogs to carry hidden colors which may appear in their offspring.


The red hair is an example of a recessive gene. Recessives can hide under the dominant versions and can only be expressed when combined with another of the same gene from the other parent. b in Bb and e in Ee are examples.

If both the parents have black noses and red fur and there is no chance your bitch mated with another dog, then the cause of your black puppy is probably a mutation. You can always check the father of your dog is the real sire if in any doubt by a genetic paternity test.

Just to note: I don't think any problems you might be having understanding the genetics have any reflection at all on how good a breeder you are. I recently gave genetics advice to someone who I consider to be a really top notch breeder: very ethical, open, and honest, but who didn't really understand colour genetics. This is someone I would like to buy a puppy from one day, if and when one with the right genetics comes along.


----------



## peppersb

elstrong said:


> I think I really peeved several of you dear people, and I'm sorry.
> Eleanor


Hi Elstrong -- I'm not the slightest bit peeved. I love hearing about your enthusiasm and especially about your commitment to keeping your dogs happy and healthy. Best wishes to you in all of your breeding. Sounds like you are having a lot of fun with it!


----------



## stealthq

Carley's Mom said:


> On my hunt for an adult Standard, I was sent a photo of a bunch of puppies for sale. They all looked the same age, but there was every color in the lot... I replied to the sender that I was not interested in a puppy at this time, and was surprised at all the colors. I asked if they were from one litter. The sender did not reply. So tell me can on litter produce all the differant colors? I find this stuff so interesting, even though I will never become a breeder .


I have some knowledge of genetics, but am new to Poodle color genes, so if I have this wrong, someone correct me 

Yes, if I've got the right info on the genetics. Let's say that:

EE/ee is the apricot factor
BB/bb is black/brown factor
VV/vv is the non-dilute/dilute factor

Then if you mated two Ee/Bb/Vv dogs, it is possible to get any genetic combination:

EE/BB/VV
EE/BB/Vv
EE/BB/vv
EE/Bb/VV
EE/Bb/Vv
EE/Bb/vv
EE/bb/VV
EE/bb/Vv
EE/bb/vv
Ee/BB/VV
Ee/BB/Vv
Ee/BB/vv
Ee/Bb/VV
Ee/Bb/Vv
Ee/Bb/vv
Ee/bb/VV
Ee/bb/Vv
Ee/bb/vv
ee/BB/VV
ee/BB/Vv
ee/BB/vv
ee/Bb/VV
ee/Bb/Vv
ee/Bb/vv
ee/bb/VV
ee/bb/Vv
ee/bb/vv


----------



## zyrcona

stealthq said:


> Then if you mated two Ee/Bb/Vv dogs, it is possible to get any genetic combination:


Yep.  This is the classic 'two blues'. I believe this is where the statement about 'blues carrying for all colours' comes from. This statement is kind of a myth in that it isn't always correct, but blues can potentially produce any other colour that exists, depending on what genes each particular blue carries.


----------



## peppersb

Zyrcona -- Interesting that you say "two blues." Why not two blacks or two silvers? I guess I don't understand how the fading gene works. Is Vv always a blue?


----------



## zyrcona

V is thought to be the locus that controls clearing. The actual genes responsible for the diluted colours in poodles have not yet been identified by geneticists (they are not the same as the gene that causes Weimeraner colour and blue in most other breeds), so it's currently theory. VV is thought to be silver or silver beige, Vv is thought to be blue or café, and vv is thought to be black or brown. So blue bred to blue can produce vv, Vv, and VV, but black to black can only produce vv and silver can only produce VV. Black bred to black could still produce ee or brindle or agouti pattern puppies and parti though, if these genes are present in both parents.


----------



## peppersb

Zyrcona -- Very interesting. Does the same thinking apply to the red, apricot, cream poodles? So a red VV would fade? and a red vv would not?

My 7 month old puppy is a cream with some nice apricot coloring which is darker on the ears. Her breeder said that she'd likely fade to a cream or even a white, but the breeder also said that she did not have much experience with this color so she wasn't sure. Her parents are both black. So 2 black parents might suggest that she'd be vv? And maybe she won't fade? Or am I taking this theory too far?


----------



## zyrcona

peppersb said:


> Zyrcona -- Very interesting. Does the same thinking apply to the red, apricot, cream poodles? So a red VV would fade? and a red vv would not?
> 
> My 7 month old puppy is a cream with some nice apricot coloring which is darker on the ears. Her breeder said that she'd likely fade to a cream or even a white, but the breeder also said that she did not have much experience with this color so she wasn't sure. Her parents are both black. So 2 black parents might suggest that she'd be vv? And maybe she won't fade? Or am I taking this theory too far?


Yes, ee dogs can either stay the colour they begin as or clear to a lighter colour. The mechanism and genes responsible are believed to be the same as the ones responsible for silver and blue. An apricot dog from two black parents (vv) is likely to remain apricot. Ideally, breeders aiming to produce apricot spectrum dogs should strive for vv. The genes that control the intensity of the red pigment of dogs on the apricot spectrum are complex and haven't yet been identified. Lighter apricot dogs (which is what yours sounds like) are often born an even colour and then lighten slightly on the legs and undercarriage in the first few weeks of life regardless of whether they carry any clearing genes. They have darker ears and a line of darker fur down the back. Dogs who fade often hold their colour best on the ears.

My apricot is 17 months old and is currently still apricot. Her mother is a white from a black background and her father is from a blue background and is what I believe to be a Vv apricot who faded to cream. If my dog gets to 2 years old without clearing, it's probably safe to assume she is vv and shouldn't fade significantly after this.


----------



## elstrong

I have learned so much about genetics here. Thank you, all for your help. I will use the Poodle Pedigree Database. Thanks for the hint 3Dogs. And you're right that I have been given many clues. I appreciate all the input.


----------



## peppersb

*New information!*

I just came across some very interesting information that might explain how 2 red dogs could produce a black. This is hardly an area in which I have any expertise, so I may be misunderstanding what I just read, but I don't think so. Hope you are reading this Zyrcona, and can add your very helpful persepctive.

Sheila M. Schmutz, Ph.D., Department of Animal and Poultry Science, University of Saskatchewan has written a description of poodle coat colors that have been studied using DNA testing. For the full description: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html

The information that is relevant to this thread is that Dr. Schmutz claims that: "There are two genetic mechansims by which dogs can be reddish in coat color." The first one is the ee that we have discussed here. (Some of us have said that two ee's cannot produce a black puppy.)

Dr. Schmutz describes the second mechanism as follows:

"The other form of red is "fawn red", called "sable" in a few breeds of dogs, such as Shetland Sheep Dogs. This fawn red is caused the the dominant allele "ay" at the agouti or A locus. This form of red also occurs in the Poodle. Some dogs have black whiskers or some black hairs intermingled in their coat, but not all with this genotype have black hairs. Shay is an example of a red Poodle that is caused by "ay" that does not have any black hairs but did have hints of black tips on her hairs as a pup. This type of red seems to be more common in small Poodles and necessitates a ky/ky genotype as well as an ay allele." [Note that wherever you see ay or ky, the y should be superscripted, but for some reason, the superscripting is not retained when I copied and pasted.]

So if I am understanding this properly, a poodle who has the ky/ky genotype as well as an ay allele would be red even if it was not ee. Such a dog might be Ee (or even EE) and could therefore produce a black puppy if bred to an ee red. Perhaps this is what happened in elstrong's breeding?


----------



## zyrcona

peppersb said:


> "The other form of red is "fawn red", called "sable" in a few breeds of dogs,


Yes, sable in poodles (kyky ayay or ayat) manifests as a born dark dog whose hair becomes the underlying ee colour as it grows. Sables tend to hold some of the dark colour in their ears and have a slightly 'dirty' cast to their coat though, and in this case one of the parents would have been born black. 

Example:

http://www.multicoloredpoodleclubofamerica.org/markings/pattern18.jpg


----------



## elstrong

Zyrcona the picture you've shown us is definitely a possibility according to the article peppersb shared with us. Look at the example that article give at the link peppersb provided. Here it is again

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/poodle.html

Notice that the article said

"Some dogs have black whiskers or some black hairs intermingled in their coat, but not all with this genotype have black hairs. Shay is an example of a red Poodle that is caused by "ay" that does not have any black hairs but did have hints of black tips on her hairs as a pup. This type of red seems to be more common in small Poodles and necessitates a ky/ky genotype as well as an ay allele."

I found that interesting. It make not mean anything in relation to my dogs but I wonder if my dogs had black tips as pups.


----------



## peppersb

Here's another interesting source:

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

This one is written by a 20 year old with no particular credentials in the field of genetics, but it certainly seems to be well researched and very nicely presented. 

If you click through to the Agouti section, you will see that it says describes 3 patterns for the sable or AY dog. Note that this page is about dogs in general, not poodles, so it may be that not all of these patterns occur in poodles. Anyway this is what the author says about the first of the 3 patterns (my emphasis):

"Clear sables are completely red dogs with just a few black hairs. *They can be almost impossible to distinguish from recessive red dogs *(see the E series page) unless they have a black mask (Em), which never appears on recessive reds (because they're unable to produce any black hairs). If there is any black in the coat at all, the dog must be a sable rather than a recessive red." 

It is sounding to me like this may well be what happened to Eleanor's litter. If you want, you could pay for genetic testing on the parents to confirm this theory. However, I'd certainly understand if you prefer to keep the money in your own pocket. I think everyone would agree that good breeders need to do genetic health testing, but they certainly don't need to do genetic color testing. Black and red are both great colors, and I hope you are enjoying your little black pup!


----------



## zyrcona

Yes, that's a nice site, regardless of author's age. There are plenty of intelligent young people as well as plenty of old fools. xD

Sables can grow out a lot of their dark coat, because it's only the tips that have eumelanin pigment and poodles' coats keep growing, and the tips get cut off. I believe it varies in different breeds, but as I understand it the sable colour in poodles is always born dark. 



peppersb said:


> Here's another interesting source:
> 
> Dog Coat Colour Genetics
> 
> This one is written by a 20 year old with no particular credentials in the field of genetics, but it certainly seems to be well researched and very nicely presented.
> 
> If you click through to the Agouti section, you will see that it says describes 3 patterns for the sable or AY dog. Note that this page is about dogs in general, not poodles, so it may be that not all of these patterns occur in poodles. Anyway this is what the author says about the first of the 3 patterns (my emphasis):
> 
> "Clear sables are completely red dogs with just a few black hairs. *They can be almost impossible to distinguish from recessive red dogs *(see the E series page) unless they have a black mask (Em), which never appears on recessive reds (because they're unable to produce any black hairs). If there is any black in the coat at all, the dog must be a sable rather than a recessive red."
> 
> It is sounding to me like this may well be what happened to Eleanor's litter. If you want, you could pay for genetic testing on the parents to confirm this theory. However, I'd certainly understand if you prefer to keep the money in your own pocket. I think everyone would agree that good breeders need to do genetic health testing, but they certainly don't need to do genetic color testing. Black and red are both great colors, and I hope you are enjoying your little black pup!


----------



## poodlesplease

This thread has been so incredibly delightful and enlightening to read! Don't ya think a poodle color genetics work book could be fun? I would love it, but then again I am a bit of a nerd!


----------



## zyrcona

poodlesplease said:


> This thread has been so incredibly delightful and enlightening to read! Don't ya think a poodle color genetics work book could be fun? I would love it, but then again I am a bit of a nerd!


I'm considering writing a book about it, with lots of diagrams and tables to help breeders predict the likely outcome of colours in a litter, but I think I need some more information first. What seems to throw most people when trying to explain how the different colours are inherited is understanding the ideas behind genetics when it's conveyed in writing. Pictures seem to make it that much more understandable.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Ohhh...I wish you would! I have seen some males I'd love to breed to, but not being 100% certain of the outcome scares me a little.


----------



## zyrcona

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ohhh...I wish you would! I have seen some males I'd love to breed to, but not being 100% certain of the outcome scares me a little.


If you PM me links to the pedigrees of the dogs you want to breed on Poodlepedigree and any colour information not shown on there (such as the colours of the parents of these dogs) I will see what I can come up with.


----------



## peppersb

A book! How wonderful! I have learned so much from what you have posted on this thread, and I'd love to buy a copy of your book. 

I was talking to someone at the dog park yesterday and mentioned that my cream puppy's parents were both black. She was very curious about that. I explained the Ee and ee stuff and she was very interested. I agree that diagrams and pictures really help people understand.

Would you be writing about dogs in general, or just poodles?


----------



## zyrcona

peppersb said:


> Would you be writing about dogs in general, or just poodles?


Poodles specifically.  I will ask on here for some photographs of each colour to include and some beta readers nearer the time.


----------



## peppersb

Great! I'd be happy to help with photos or beta reading. There is certainly no shortage of photos around here!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I'd be happy to furnish you with photos of reds and apricots. Such a book would be invaluable to breeders, as was your offer too look into pedigrees. Thank you so much!


----------



## NOLA Standards

The problem I have discovered, in researching color in pedigrees, is that so many animals are not registered to their correct color.

Blue is incredibly misunderstood, creme and apricot still seem to be up for debate, silvers are even registered as blacks...

(the above said as an illustration of what is misleading in pedigrees - blues as blacks or bad blacks as silvers - cremes as apricots - cremes as whites, etc)

You really need to see (in living color) several generations to honestly know the colors you are dealing with.

Too make a difficult project even more impossible...


----------



## zyrcona

NOLA Standards said:


> The problem I have discovered, in researching color in pedigrees, is that so many animals are not registered to their correct color.


I find this as well. So frustrating. It's possible to get around it mostly by looking at breeders' websites and asking them and what they put together and got out in a litter, but it's hard to get reliable data on the clearing colours (café, blue, silver, silver beige). I've had people claim they got clearing colours out of two nonclearing parents, which if it is true means the currently accepted theory about the gene that controls this trait is wrong, but I can't find any solid evidence this has happened. You'd think breeders would have a better understanding, but I find in my country that everything born brown tends to get registered and advertised as brown, and the same thing frequently happens with blacks. The other day I saw an advert for brown puppies from a brown dam. In the photograph, the mother was a beautiful silver beige, so the puppies should either be café or silver beige rather than holding brown.

Red I find is not so bad, because it seems to be a popular colour at the moment. However, breeders who don't know what they're doing often end up with clearing genes in their reds, so they end up being apricot or cream. ;-)

Also it's kind of difficult when someone is wrong not to come across as rude. If a breeder tells you her stud dog is silver, it's hard to tell her I think he is actually blue in a tactful way.


----------



## NOLA Standards

_Red I find is not so bad, because it seems to be a popular colour at the moment. However, breeders who don't know what they're doing often end up with clearing genes in their reds, so they end up being apricot or cream. ;-)_

Every red fades even those that darken until they are one. (On the other hand apricots often do not). 

Do you then propose that E Pluribus Unim and Peach Beryl carried clearing genes? Red breeders who have bred nothing more than red to red for generations still have reds that range across the spectrum and that vary in color as they age.



( R.E. telling a breeder she is wrong without being rude... Had a lady tell me her stud only carried the red gene. I said, "WOW! Could I call the scientist that told you that? Because (<insert color research as known here>" I tried to ask enthuisiastically, and like I believed there was a scientist behind that statement for me to talk to ...if that earns me any points!)


----------



## zyrcona

NOLA Standards said:


> Every red fades even those that darken until they are one. (On the other hand apricots often do not).


The genes that control redness and apricotness haven't been identified yet, so there is no genetics test that a scientist will be able to do for you. From what can be understood, there seem to be at least three genes that control apricot, white, and cream shades and probably a gene at a separate locus for red. Two copies of this red gene may produce a darker colour than one (partial dominance) so it's possible to get a range of colour depending on the number of red genes and the intensity of the apricot colour underneath.

Reds and apricots do often lighten slightly, but they shouldn't lighten so much as to end up looking apricot and cream respectively if they don't have the clearing gene. That was the kind of lightening I meant by breeders not knowing what they're doing -- people breeding reds with blues and silvers and suchlike.


----------



## tintlet

Try to find Sable poodles...AKC doesn't list that as a poodle color. My daughter had to register her sable as a cream with black markings.


----------



## Rowan

tintlet said:


> Try to find Sable poodles...AKC doesn't list that as a poodle color. *My daughter had to register her sable as a cream with black markings*.


Same here!


----------



## NOLA Standards

Zyrcona,

I am a breeder who bred a red with a blue, after much research and after guidance from several esteemed, well respected, successful both in the ring with conformation and in obedience venues and knowledgable (both were interviewed regarding the color in the Red/Apricot Issue of PV and are members of PCA) breeders of beautiful red toy and mini AKC CH. 

The search was for, beyond conformation and health and a pedigree that complimented (the primary reason I decided to roll the dice - keeping in mind that I have seen firsthand for several years now how far behind reds are in conformation), a blue that was blue as a pup. Not a blue that faded and cleared througout life, or a bad black, or a grey, etc.

I've put up with a lot of eye rolling and comments such as yours (about pups clearing). My response is that only someone not informed doesn't realize "it" (the oh so feared fading/clearing) already occurs. In EVERY red dog. And it has occured for all the years that red has been bred to red and it continues to occur as the same red dogs are bred to the same red dogs. Some pups more than others, but fading/clearing always occurs.

Pups from the litter ( Carter (blue) x Ruby (red) ) were black - 3 - you can see the blacks on the NOLA Standards FB page - they are inky black, and blue (4 pups were blue), 6 pups were apricot. Of the 6 apricot, 2 have been a light red since 6 months old - though they were born apricot - and Lombardi is...well Lombardi is. :act-up: His picture is attached for you.

This next May/June/Jly Lombardi will be bred to B - Baroness Pontalba and I'll see what they produce. And I'll post plenty of photos for the curious to evaluate. To date - and the pups (Carter X Ruby) are 10 months old tomorrow - the color has darkened in all of the color (born apricot) pups and held beautifully in all of the black pups. The blue pups were blue when their faces were shaved at 3 weeks old. They were clearing by 9 weeks. None of this 3 year old..."what color dog do I have?" for those babies!

I'll continue to monitor the pups - and post their un-enhanced pictures. Lombardi will continue to be shown in all his glory - even after his AKC CH is achieved, as a special.

Time will prove, or even better a scientist will prove! but I am willing to bet all poodles of all colors carry dilute (also referred to as fading) genes and it's the varying combinations parents give to their offspring, ALONG with the greying gene as passed from each parent in combination that affects the individual color of the pup. (Schmutz has some great reading - fixing in your mind that black is color and white is abscence of)

Otherwise, there's no real explanation for that red bred to red x 10 being apricot/light red by the time it's 2 years old.

Breeders would be smart, I think, to keep a bit of an open mind until color genetics in the poodle are a bit better mapped. Without an open mind, and a willingness to listen to breeders who have been successful, they'll continue to operate in a box drawn... well, quite frankly a box drawn without any scientific guidelines, only a load of theoretical assumptions.

And, I could tell you what my Daddy always told me about assuming! :afraid:

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Thanks for that post, Tabatha. I was waiting for it!!


----------



## zyrcona

Hi Tabatha,



NOLA Standards said:


> I am a breeder who bred a red with a blue, after much research


Then you aren't a breeder who doesn't know what she's doing.  You did your research and if the blue was born blue, it's not genetically the same as a normal blue. This is the d gene believed to be the same gene that occurs in breeds such as Weimaraners and blue Dobies and is thought to be uncommon in poodles. It seems to be linked to a medical condition called colour dilution alopecia, but presumably the dog you used was clear.

I was referring to some breeders I've seen throwing any two dogs together with no real consideration of what colours they are likely to produce and advertising the puppies as the colours they're born. An apricot with a normal clearing blue parent is a lottery as to whether it will hold its colour, as so far as I know there's no way of telling when it's born if it will clear or not. An accidental apricot puppy thrown from a silver and blue line is unlikely to remain the same colour. I guess I phrased it in a stupid way and I apologise if any offence was caused.


----------



## peppersb

Zyrcona -- The amount of information about genetics that you have shared here is just amazing. Thank you so much! I can't wait to see your book.


----------



## zyrcona

peppersb said:


> Zyrcona -- The amount of information about genetics that you have shared here is just amazing. Thank you so much! I can't wait to see your book.


Thanks. Here’s what I’m currently using for a working theory. As usual, it’s subject to change should some more information come to light. I don’t think I have enough data on some of these genes to write a book on it yet.

I’ve found most of my observations agree best with Dr John Armstrong’s theories Color Genes in the Poodle and most of my own thoughts on the unidentified genes are based on his. Apologies for the superscripts and subscripts not coming through.

*Currently known* (these are all mapped genes that have been scientifically demonstrated to exist and ascribed to these particular colour traits):

*E locus:*
E eumelanin (black or brown coat)
e phaeomelanin (red, apricot, cream, or white coat)

*B locus*
B black eumelanin
b brown eumelanin

*K locus* (K locus patterns are invisible on ee dogs)
K solid eumelanin colour
kbr reveals A configuration with brindled overlay. Results in brindle (sable with brindle overlay) and ‘dirty phantom’ (phantom with brindle overlay).
ky reveals A configuration

*A locus* (pattern is invisible on ee or KK dogs)
ay sable
at phantom
a recessive black (recessive to phantom and sable, but causes no pattern in aa dogs; thought to be rare in poodles)

*D locus*
d light eumelanin, resulting in born blue (and presumably born café) dogs; thought to be uncommon in poodles
D dark eumelanin

*S locus*
S non parti
sp parti (white splodges on coat)

*Currently unknown* (these genes are theoretical and have not yet been mapped)

*C locus*
ca apricot
cc cream
cw white

*R locus*
R darkens phaeomelanin in coat
r normal phaeomelanin in coat

_These two loci are thought to account for the complicated spectrum of red and apricot dogs that can occur. From reddest to whitest and assuming no clearing or other dilution factors, these are:
RRcaca deep red
Rr caca red
Rr cacc light red
Rrcacw red that probably goes apricot on the legs and underside
rrcaca even dark apricot
Rrcccc probably apricot
Rrcccw apricot that lightens slightly on the legs and underside
rrcacc apricot that lightens slightly on the legs and underside
rrcacw apricot that goes pale cream on the legs and underside
rrcccc cream
rrcccw cream that turns white on legs and underside
rrcwcw white_

*V locus* (clearing -- blues and cafés are thought to be Vv, silver and silver beige VV, and holding black and brown vv)
V clearing
v holding

*Weirdoes *(anomalies that don’t seem to fit current theory)

Some brown dogs from black parents are reported to fade similar to cafés even though there is nowhere for a V to come from. Some people have claimed they bred together two browns and got all black puppies, which would be impossible if both dogs were bb. It may be that there is a different locus, also recessive, that can produce brown eumelanin, and that this form of brown fades through some other mechanism.

Sable and phantom do not exhibit the dominance pattern most commonly quoted in the literature. I know of a breeder with two phantoms who regularly throw sable puppies, which would not be possible if ay was always dominant to at. There also exist dogs that appear to have both sable and phantom patterns. ayat seems to be variable, often producing a ‘shaded sable’ that holds its colour better in the dark phantom areas, but sometimes looking more sable or more phantom.


----------



## CT Girl

This is a fascinating thread. It is clear that color is far more complicated than a simple Punnet square. A book investigating this complex topic is clearly needed.


----------



## outwest

Zyrcona, what do you make of my dark cream girl who seems to still be getting darker? How is it possible for poodle hair to get darker when most poodles get lighter? I still don't get it. Once before you thought she might have a certain genetic makeup, but at 11 months, she is solid light orange now, darker than she was a month ago. It seems like every time she is groomed and trimmed she comes back a little darker. She had a light stripe down her back for a few months, but that is now gone with her sides becoming the color of the stripe. I went on a walk this afternoon with her cousin who was also a cream puppy and he is turning white at 6 months old. My SIL and I had an endless discussion about this. He has a completely unrelated sire to my dog, but his mother was my dogs Grandmother (last breeding for her at 7 years old). 

more info:
Her toenails have lost the black stripe they had up until she was about 9 months old and now almost match her hair color. Her black nose is changing, too. It looks like it is going to brown out, although it is still dark. It looks dark chocolate candy when the sun hits it. Looking at her straight on it appears black. 

Because of the nose changing color along with her hair, is it possible she is some variant of a brown or really is an apricot? She was born with pitch black points. She carries brown, cream, apricot and mostly black with no whites at all. She has no parti factor. Parents were nonfading blacks (at least, at several years old they are still very black). There is only one cream close in her pedigree (no other creams), browns on both sides (just a few) and a whole line of apricot standards several generations back, but only on one side. I found one silver and one blue way back. Her littermates were a rainbow of colors- very light milky cream to mine which was a greyish/tan cream (odd color), dark brown and black. Her brown littermates are still dark brown last I heard. 

What would you say her color genetics are?


----------



## zyrcona

outwest said:


> Zyrcona, what do you make of my dark cream girl who seems to still be getting darker?


Your dog sounds like a similar colour to mine. She was born light apricot, lightened slightly as a puppy (retaining the colour on her ears and the tip of her tail) and then developed a sort of warm darker tone over her back and the upper side of her neck.

I think what you are seeing with the darkening coat that looks darker after it's been cut is the dog's coat becoming denser as it matures and giving a deeper tone. Because apricot is such a light strawberry blond colour, the old hair quite possibly gets paler from UV exposure at the tips (as this sort of hair colour can do on humans) and the faster-growing guard hairs are mostly light. So when the dog's coat is long and gets clipped, it appears to be much darker underneath, until the guard hairs overtake the rest of the coat and the tips of the hairs get exposed to the sun. 

The nose colour is probably what's called a 'snow nose'. If your dog was born with correct black points, they won't change to brown, but they can sometimes lose their colour a bit.

I think what I said before was that your dog would be vv if both her parents were non-fading blacks. This means that she won't clear (her colour probably won't change significantly after she's one year old).

Your dog's parents are both Ee (dark coat). Your dog flipped tails both times and got ee (light coat). It's not possible to tell what underlying apricot spectrum colours the parents are as they are hidden by the black and there's no test for them. I would guess from your description she is one of the mid-range colours with at least one apricot gene in the theory above, possibly cacw.

Therefore, her genotype would be ee cacw vv.

My dog is cacw. She is the offspring of a cacc Vv dog, from a blue grandmother, who was born apricot and cleared to cream in his second year and a cwcw vv white bitch from black descent. All the puppies were either apricot cacw or cream cccw. Half of them will have inherited the V clearing gene from their dad. My dog is 18 months old and has not cleared yet, so (touch wood) she is hopefully vv.


----------



## Keithsomething

I find colour so interesting! Heaven and Bonnie were legit the same colour when they were puppies (Bonnie maybe a shade darker) but now they look nothing alike colourwise!

Heaven's dam is a red/apricot that faded to cream and her sire is a beautiful blue. Heaven is essentially a white now...BUT from everything I've seen I'm more inclined to blame the clearing on her dam (who is a cream now from her red apricot colour) than I am her sire. Red breeders have been dabbling in blues for as long as there have been red poodles and with some great success like Tabatha has said.

I'll attach some photos and explain them

The first is Heavens Dam at about 9mo
The second is Heavens dam a few months ago

and the third is Heavens sire


----------



## mozarticus

she may develop the red colour with age, my baby was supposed to be champagne and was when we got him but has changed into apricot with age.


----------



## outwest

Thanks, Zyrcona! I am saving your posts to go over them until I fully get it.  It is entirely possible that her coat lightens over time with the sun (it is sunny here a lot) and it is an illusion that it keeps looking darker when I trim her, but I don't know- it is pretty darned light orange now. It could also be that her adult hair is coming in, so it is denser than it used to be and so the color looks deeper. 

Bonnie has never been as dark as Heaven was as a puppy. Heavens dam as an adult is a different shade of apricot/cream/red than Bonnie. Pretty dogs, Keith! 

I hunted around for a picture that showed her color as close to the way it actually is (it photographs differently depending on the light). This one was outside in natural light and the most accurate one I could find (she was 10 months old). Her ears are slightly darker than her body. You can also compare her nose to my whippet's very black nose and see what I mean about her nose color. On her own, the nose is black. Next to the whippet with the true black nose, it now has a dark chocolate hue that I have noticed over the last month.










Poodle colors are so cool because, other than black poodles, they all seem to change somehow. I don't know of any other breed of dog that does that. You never know what color dog you have with a poodle and sometimes the color continues to evolve throughout their lives. Fascinating.


----------



## peppersb

Oh my goodness, Outwest. Bonnie is absolutely gorgeous. Takes my breath away! The color is stunning! And she looks like such a happy girl!

I am always interested in your posts about Bonnie because my Cammie has similar genetics. She is cream (or light apricot?) and her parents are both black. She has a fair amount of white in her pedigree on both sides. 

She has not faded much, but (sadly) I am starting to notice white/cream roots under her beautiful golden retriever colored ears, especially at the bottom. After her most recent grooming, I noticed that the hair on her back seemed just as dark as previously, but less of a red or orange hue--more khaki colored. I will try to post some photos later.


----------



## minipoodlelover

Bonnie looks darker even from the last photos I saw of her! Her color is really beautiful.


----------



## outwest

I know- she is getting orange in the sunlight and bright lights and inside in the house she isn't as orange! All I can think of is her hair reflects light back orange. It is so weird/coolio. I hope she keeps it. At 11 months old, she could still change some more. It must be an apricot/dark cream trait. I haven't seen many true apricot standards in person, but someone mentioned they do that. 

Peppersb, I noticed your puppy looks similar to Bonnie, too. She is so cute! Do you have any other pictures to share?


----------



## peppersb

Here are some Cammie photos, hopefully showing how her color has changed over time. In the most recent one (with leaves on the ground), it looks like her head is very white, but I think that's the way the sun was hitting it. The top of her head is now light, but it does have some color. As you can see on her back, she has not faded to cream/white. But her back is now more tan/khaki than the stunning red/orange that Bonnie has retained. 

The first photo is 7 weeks, with black siblings. The last one is very recent, at 8 months. She is a very little girl--now just over 20 inches and about 32 pounds. I'm guessing she'll grow another inch and end up at 35 to 40 pounds. I just love her size! 

I love her golden retriever ears (the color of a golden retriever). Unfortunately, there is quite a bit of white/cream at the roots, especially towards the bottom of the ears. But there is still some color at the roots at the top of the ears. Will be interesting to see how she ends up. Initially the breeder told me she'd likely fade. But Zycona said that the fact that she had 2 black parents gives hope that she'll retain her color. Hoping that she does, and so far it is looking pretty good!


----------



## outwest

Wow. Her coloring does look similar to Bonnies, but almost exactly like Bonnie's cousin Chili (my sister in laws puppy). Bonnie is a small standard, too. I am enjoying her size very much. Here is a picture of Chili and Bonnie (he is a Moyen poodle). He is getting whiter, though. I will have to get more pics of Chili.


----------



## peppersb

Chili and Bonnie look adorable together. I was looking hard to try to find a moyen, but couldn't find any that appeared be be both well bred and not too far away from me. I feel very fortunate to have found such a small standard--they are not easy to find.


----------



## outwest

Bonnies breeder has a Moyen line of poodles and a standard line. I think they are high quality poodles. The standards are often more moderately sized, but she does have some full sized ones (up to about 24 inches max). Bonnie is about 22 inches tall and 38 pounds at 11 months old. They are beautiful dogs, but because her standards tend to be smaller, she only shows in UKC. UKC also accepts the Moyen size poodles while AKC doesn't. It's too bad because the Moyens are a lovely size.


----------

