# What age to spay?



## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Why I am afraid*

About ten years ago we had our borzoi spayed. She died on the operating table when the vet gave her too much anesthesia.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

We waited until our toy had had her first season, which seems to be the generally recommended time, certainly our breeder and vet recommended this, but if you check out some of the other threads on this subject (using the search thingy) you will see loads of opinions! 

We wanted to make sure Pippin's hormones were fully engaged, as it were, before she was done, and also concerned about possible spay incontinence by doing her too young. Thinking also with a toy that her little bits would be very tiny so wanted her fully grown and developed as far as possible.

So sorry to hear of the loss of your other dog in such tragic circumstances, unfortunately there is a risk with all anaesthesia, and surgery. Very sad indeed and I can see why you are concerned.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Just make sure to have the pre-anesthesia blood work done, also I would insist on I.V. fluids during and right after surgery. I prefer no preanesthetic, especially ace, and I also prefer Isoflourene (sp?) or better.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

Thank you so much for your advice. My vet suggested doing it at four months but I wouldn't because she was only about four pounds. I would prefer to wait and give her more time to grow. She is just so precious to me.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

4 months? I'd find another vet.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

This link was on another thread about spay/neuter: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/09/30/neutering-health-risks.aspx


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

We have been advised by many people to let Tia our mini have a season,then be spayed. She is 7 months old now and came into season three days ago so you may find your toy comes into season before she is operated on. Can totally understand why you are worried,am absolutely dreading Tia being done as she is very small for a mini,toy size really,and I wish she didn't have to have it done,but I don't want to breed her so I guess it's for the best.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*thank you*

I appreciate all of the replies. I will have out of state company here during Thanksgiving and Christmas and they bring their male (neutered) dog. I am hoping Amy is either not in heat yet or has been spayed. The timing is awful. I don't want to do it at all but don't want to breed her.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

mamato3 said:


> I appreciate all of the replies. I will have out of state company here during Thanksgiving and Christmas and they bring their male (neutered) dog. I am hoping Amy is either not in heat yet or has been spayed. The timing is awful. I don't want to do it at all but don't want to breed her.


If their dog is neutered why are you worried about her being spayed yet? I wouldn't make a major health decision for my dog based on visitors coming. Do what you think is best for you and your dog. Don't worry about other people. They can come another time, board their dog, or have someone watch their dog if you're worried. 


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Really?*

I have heard that a male dog, even neutered, will react to a female in heat. I know she couldn't get pregnant but I don't want it to be crazy with her and two male dogs in the same house for days.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If you aren't letting your dog roam around the neighborhood, if you're supervising her in her yard, if you lock her up when it's her cycle when visitors come, put a belly band on her, you wouldn't have to spay her at all. Or wait till she's a few years old. I wouldn't spay or neuter anymore after what I've read, if there isn't a darn good reason to.

I'm so sorry about the loss of your Borzoi that way. What a devastating blow. No wonder you're scared. It's scary anyhow, but to have experienced that....just so sad.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Hmmmm*

She is always in the house but our out of state company would be staying in our home for a week. Chances are her cycle won't hit when they are here for the holidays. I may just take the chance and not spay her, at least not for a while.


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

Billy is neutered but he still does a lot of bum sniffing with Tia in heat. She is losing quite a lot of blood.more than I thought she would,it's handy to be able to see how much when I change the little pads in her panties. My vet told me not to leave them on their own as a neutered male can in theory still try to mate with a female on heat. There would be no puppies but it would be pretty traumatic for both of them,so I can see why you would be wary if having a male dog with your girl if she was in heat wether he was neutered or not.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Even if you keep an unspayed bitch well secured on your property she will be detected by males from long distances. They will be at your doorstep. My neighbor and dog sitter was recommended to wait until her brittany was a year old for her spay because of a heart murmur that the vet wanted to see if she would outgrow. When she was in season they had several loose male pit bulls at their front door the whole time.

I had Lily spayed when she almost 7 months old. She did fine. I also have to be an honest broker here and say that Peeves is intact. He has a high probability of being bred with one or the other of his breeders new girls in a year or so though. While I would be thrilled to see that happen (and get a puppy out of it too) since he is a great dog, having an intact male (or female) puts extra work on you. He has never tried to escape the yard because I thought he scented an in season bitch, but there are times where he can be a handful to walk because I have suspected he could smell one. 

I know the OP here had a bad experience in the past, but those events are the exception, not the norm. There are too many unwanted puppies and kittens in the world. We need to do everything we can to reduce the number of animals in shelters. Neutering dogs and cats that are not to be bred is one of the most important things we can do to help make this goal a reality. Helping people to properly train their puppies so they are impeccably mannered family members is the other. Sorry for going off topic a bit, but I hope we all think these issues are important enough to put out there any time we can.


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

I've not had any dogs outside here since Tia has been on heat. We don't really have any stray dogs round here and when I walk her she is obviously on a lead,and all the other dogs we see are on leads and not a single one has taken any notice of her. Perhaps I have been lucky. I was always going to neuter Billy when I got him. He got quite fruity at 11 months so that made it easy to have him done,plus we wanted him done before Tia went into heat.
I did briefly consider letting Tia have a litter,but to be honest I would want to do it properly,have all the tests done e.t.c,and in the end decided against it. I will have her done in February at 11 months. My vet says she can be done 3 months after the day she comes off heat.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That sounds like a great plan for Tia. You are lucky to not have stray males around. Maybe England is generally doing better with some of the things I talked about than we do in the US (at least in my corner of it).


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Pippin was nearly 14 months old before she had her first heat - unless she had one and we missed it (joking) - and she hardly lost any blood, we didn't get bothered by other dogs although she was always on lead and kept close, and apart from her "dying hormonal diva" act it wasn't really much bother.

She was 16.5 months when she was spayed. We decided to get her done after researching, weighing up the pros and cons, and also because she usually gets at least one off-lead run per day and the 3 weeks she was on-lead were aggravating for all of us!

We absolutely would not have wanted her to get pregnant, and accidents can happen, so finally made the decision to have her done. Apart from a few weeks of slight incontinence post op she had no bother whatsoever and recovered amazingly well.


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

That's good to know manxcat as Tia looks very similar in size to Pippin. My daughter is getting married in April next year in Mexico so Billy and Tia have got to go in kennels then,and if I leave it till we get back there is a risk she could go into season while we are away so I have to have her done in February so she will be fully recovered by April. Am worried about her being done but hope she will be ok.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Even if you keep an unspayed bitch well secured on your property she will be detected by males from long distances. They will be at your doorstep. My neighbor and dog sitter was recommended to wait until her brittany was a year old for her spay because of a heart murmur that the vet wanted to see if she would outgrow. When she was in season they had several loose male pit bulls at their front door the whole time.
> 
> I had Lily spayed when she almost 7 months old. She did fine. I also have to be an honest broker here and say that Peeves is intact. He has a high probability of being bred with one or the other of his breeders new girls in a year or so though. While I would be thrilled to see that happen (and get a puppy out of it too) since he is a great dog, having an intact male (or female) puts extra work on you. He has never tried to escape the yard because I thought he scented an in season bitch, but there are times where he can be a handful to walk because I have suspected he could smell one.
> 
> I know the OP here had a bad experience in the past, but those events are the exception, not the norm. There are too many unwanted puppies and kittens in the world. We need to do everything we can to reduce the number of animals in shelters. Neutering dogs and cats that are not to be bred is one of the most important things we can do to help make this goal a reality. Helping people to properly train their puppies so they are impeccably mannered family members is the other. Sorry for going off topic a bit, but I hope we all think these issues are important enough to put out there any time we can.


My first poodle Jole died on the table being spayed - believe me, once you have been hit by lightening, you can't be told not to be afraid of walking in the rain.
But, my second poodle, who was not spayed wound up having to have a huge uterine mass removed at age 10 (it was benign and went well), my next 4 were spayed at a year (none had a heat first), and my next one will have at least one heat, maybe more before being spayed, because we now know that is the healthiest thing to do - and I care enough about my dogs to do my darndest to make sure that nothing bad happens to them - not orthopedic problems, not urinary incontinence, not a shortened lifespan, not cancer, and not an unwanted breeding! A responsible owner can do it all - our toy poodle can keep their ovaries and uterus long enough to grow and develop properly with no impact upon the world's pet populations problems!


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

"Even if you keep an unspayed bitch well secured on your property she will be detected by males from long distances. They will be at your doorstep. My neighbor and dog sitter was recommended to wait until her brittany was a year old for her spay because of a heart murmur that the vet wanted to see if she would outgrow. When she was in season they had several loose male pit bulls at their front door the whole time."

If I had several loose male pit bulls at my front door I would be on the phone to animal control faster than you could blink. 


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

*Tia is definitely a hormonal diva!*



Manxcat said:


> Pippin was nearly 14 months old before she had her first heat - unless she had one and we missed it (joking) - and she hardly lost any blood, we didn't get bothered by other dogs although she was always on lead and kept close, and apart from her "dying hormonal diva" act it wasn't really much bother.
> 
> She was 16.5 months when she was spayed. We decided to get her done after researching, weighing up the pros and cons, and also because she usually gets at least one off-lead run per day and the 3 weeks she was on-lead were aggravating for all of us!
> 
> We absolutely would not have wanted her to get pregnant, and accidents can happen, so finally made the decision to have her done. Apart from a few weeks of slight incontinence post op she had no bother whatsoever and recovered amazingly well.








Last night when poor Bill had the nerve to sit and look at her as she sat with hubby! ( so unlike her,she is usually so docile and loving with Billy)


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carrie-e said:


> Last night when poor Bill had the nerve to sit and look at her as she sat with hubby! ( so unlike her,she is usually so docile and loving with Billy)


That is too funny!


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## Carrie-e (Oct 23, 2012)

In America I take it you have a big problem with stray dogs then? I'm sure we must have strays in cities but I've never seen any where I live. That's really sad isn't it,and must be a huge problem when you have a bitch in heat. I have also noticed how a lot of people on here from the States talk about having problems with pit bulls. They are practically unheard of here,think they are legally classified here as a dangerous dog and can be taken away. We have a lot of Staffordshire bull terriers in Britain. They can be lovely dogs,my friend breeds them and hers are lovely,but a lot of young lads own them here and train them to be attack dogs. They are never spayed or neutered so we have so many if them in this country. Every other week there is a story in the paper about someone being attacked by one.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carrie-e said:


> In America I take it you have a big problem with stray dogs then? I'm sure we must have strays in cities but I've never seen any where I live. That's really sad isn't it,and must be a huge problem when you have a bitch in heat. I have also noticed how a lot of people on here from the States talk about having problems with pit bulls. They are practically unheard of here,think they are legally classified here as a dangerous dog and can be taken away. We have a lot of Staffordshire bull terriers in Britain. They can be lovely dogs,my friend breeds them and hers are lovely,but a lot of young lads own them here and train them to be attack dogs. They are never spayed or neutered so we have so many if them in this country. Every other week there is a story in the paper about someone being attacked by one.


There may be strays in rural areas but it is rare in the more urban areas.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

Carrie-e said:


> In America I take it you have a big problem with stray dogs then? I'm sure we must have strays in cities but I've never seen any where I live. That's really sad isn't it,and must be a huge problem when you have a bitch in heat. I have also noticed how a lot of people on here from the States talk about having problems with pit bulls. They are practically unheard of here,think they are legally classified here as a dangerous dog and can be taken away. We have a lot of Staffordshire bull terriers in Britain. They can be lovely dogs,my friend breeds them and hers are lovely,but a lot of young lads own them here and train them to be attack dogs. They are never spayed or neutered so we have so many if them in this country. Every other week there is a story in the paper about someone being attacked by one.


I've never lived anywhere where there are stray dogs roaming around and as I said earlier if there were loose pit bulls on my porch I would be on the phone to animal control immediately. Yes, there is a huge problem with irresponsible breeding and ownership of pit bulls over here. When I was looking to adopt a dog from the shelter 80% of the dogs were pit bull/staffordshire bull breeds. There's actually not a lot of difference between the pit bull and the Staffordshire bull. 


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## poodlecrazy51 (Dec 31, 2012)

Back to OP. I hope I am not being redundant. Please be careful to not spay
your girl too close to when the visiting dog will be there. They could get to playing 
too hard, and complicate her recovery. Keeping them separated if he gets "nosey ",
and waiting til company is gone, thus letting your girl have her first heat would be my approach.Also
, I hope I don't offend, but I would not take my vet 's advice to spay that young, 4 months, 
I believe. IMHO. Good adcive about pre -testing, and knowing what drugs will be administered and how!!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> My first poodle Jole died on the table being spayed - believe me, once you have been hit by lightening, you can't be told not to be afraid of walking in the rain.
> But, my second poodle, who was not spayed wound up having to have a huge uterine mass removed at age 10 (it was benign and went well), my next 4 were spayed at a year (none had a heat first), and my next one will have at least one heat, maybe more before being spayed, because we now know that is the healthiest thing to do - and I care enough about my dogs to do my darndest to make sure that nothing bad happens to them - not orthopedic problems, not urinary incontinence, not a shortened lifespan, not cancer, and not an unwanted breeding! A responsible owner can do it all - our toy poodle can keep their ovaries and uterus long enough to grow and develop properly with no impact upon the world's pet populations problems!


I wasn't trying to say that people shouldn't be concerned or that I don't empathize with being afraid because of the past experience. The best way to make a good decision though is to weigh all of the available information.

In my area, which is suburban, we don't have roving stray dogs so much, but we do have dogs that are good escape artists! Unfortunately I have had many pits in my neighborhood and there have been problems related to them. Lily and I were charged at by one once and another one attacked Peeves and another neighborhood dog each more than once. Thankfully Lily and I weren't reached by the dog that charged us and Peeves wasn't hurt by the one that attacked him.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I wasn't trying to say that people shouldn't be concerned or that I don't empathize with being afraid because of the past experience. The best way to make a good decision though is to weigh all of the available information.
> 
> In my area, which is suburban, we don't have roving stray dogs so much, but we do have dogs that are good escape artists! Unfortunately I have had many pits in my neighborhood and there have been problems related to them. Lily and I were charged at by one once and another one attacked Peeves and another neighborhood dog each more than once. Thankfully Lily and I weren't reached by the dog that charged us and Peeves wasn't hurt by the one that attacked him.


I hope you're calling animal control on all these incidents. There needs to be a paper trail to take action on problem dogs and god forbid they seriously injure someone. As for your immediate safety on walks, I would bring pepper spray.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Fuzzymom, ironically the dog that charged at me and Lily charged at one of my other neighbors and he thought she was going to attack his wife (who was very sick, dying with breast cancer). He killed her with a baseball bat. We did report the guy who owned that dog and another pit bitch for neglect. SPCA came but not much changed. Thankfully those pits are all gone from my neighborhood. I do carry spray shield and a big stick.

To get back to the OP's issues, I do realize that many people have all sorts of reasons they may not want or be able to spay/neuter. Unless their dog (or cat for that matter) is an excellent representative of that standard for its breed they should make an informed decision on doing the spay/neuter or being extra careful and responsible to prevent accidental breedings. I just think it is pitiful to have so many puppies and kittens born in this country continuously that we can't ensure that they all end up in good homes.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I am not going to be breeding Maurice. He's too small and wouldn't contribute to the betterment of the breed. But I am not going to neuter him if I don't have to. There are too many detrimental health ramifications with neutering. I've done my research. It's not natural to take away body parts and mess with hormones. The only time I believe in "fixing" (what a terrible word to use for this spaying and neutering) a dog is when the owner is irresponsible and lets his dogs roam or otherwise breed unplanned and when the dog isn't suitable for breeding. _Responsible_ owners and breeders are *not* the cause of the problem with over crowded shelters and unwanted puppies.

I may well decide to breed Matisse with his breeder's involvement and only after he achieves his championship and maybe some other titles, along with taking health issues into consideration. His temperament is excellent, even if he is a monster boy. lol. It's quite likely, according to his breeder who is also a handler and judge, that he is a _really,_ _really_ nice puppy and may well help to improve the breed when and if the time is right.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I am not going to be breeding Maurice. He's too small and wouldn't contribute to the betterment of the breed. But I am not going to neuter him if I don't have to. There are too many detrimental health ramifications with neutering. I've done my research. It's not natural to take away body parts and mess with hormones. The only time I believe in "fixing" (what a terrible word to use for this spaying and neutering) a dog is when the owner is irresponsible and lets his dogs roam or otherwise breed unplanned and when the dog isn't suitable for breeding. _Responsible_ owners and breeders are *not* the cause of the problem with over crowded shelters and unwanted puppies.
> 
> I may well decide to breed Matisse with his breeder's involvement and only after he achieves his championship and maybe some other titles, along with taking health issues into consideration. His temperament is excellent, even if he is a monster boy. lol. It's quite likely, according to his breeder who is also a handler and judge, that he is a _really,_ _really_ nice puppy and may well help to improve the breed when and if the time is right.


Agree with you on the boys, but with the girls at a certain age the risk of pyometria and tumors becomes too great and they should be spayed. Tasia's tumor was benign but it was huge and pressing on every organ and compressing her colon. Thankfully she came through ok ( after a weeks hospitalization) but in retrospect it would have been better to spay her when she was three or four...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yeah, it is a little different with the girls. I'd want to do more research into the girls because I mostly was interested in the boys since that's what I have now except Chulita and she's spayed. 

Also, when I said that it's unnatural to remove body parts, the body parts I'm concerned with are those that have something to do with running the body systems. I am not opposed to cropping ears or docking tails on certain breeds.


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