# Question about All-Breed & FSS Open Shows



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is a major cluster and the "all breed dog" shows are the "regular" types of points earning shows. Read the whole premium that you showed the cover of and you will see what the prizes are and the like. Also if you now go back to infodog you will be able to see the judging program which will tell you what breeds are being judged in what rings and the times. It will also show how many dogs/bitches/etc. are entered.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It's my understanding that an FSS show is for breeds that are not yet AKC recognized - is that right?


This particular cluster should have great poodle entries - there are so many nice poodles in that part of the country.


You folks in the East probably could not imagine how few and how far are the shows in the Rocky Mountain region. We have our local cluster in May - 5 days of shows. Then there are two shows in June (Santa Fe, but held in Albuquerque). Other than those, here are the distances to the nearest shows: Truth or Consequences - 173 miles, Durango, CO - 202 miles, Roswell, NM 221 miles, Las Cruces, NM 246 miles, Pueblo, CO - 323 miles. Most of those shows have really small entries. Most of them have no miniature poodles entered at all.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, Johanna I believe you are correct about FSS.


As to the distances and frequencies of shows, you are right the east is lousy with shows. This weekend in addition to the cluster Vita referenced there is also a huge cluster at the Big E in W. Springfield, Mass. There is rally and obedience in addition to conformation. Both the W. Friendship and W. Springfield clusters would be possibilities to me.


Here is yet another reason we need the Star Trek transporter. You and Zoe could come to W. Springfield and Lily, Javelin and I would come up to cheer you on.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Johanna said:


> It's my understanding that an FSS show is for breeds that are not yet AKC recognized - is that right?





lily cd re said:


> Yes, Johanna I believe you are correct about FSS.


I'm confused now! At AKC site, it says, 
" FSS Open Shows are informal AKC sanctioned events. They allow owners and their dogs of FSS & Miscellaneous Class breeds a chance to gain the ring experience of a conformation dog show in a relaxed and inviting environment. While no points may be earned towards a Championship, Certificate of Merit points may be earned. FSS Open Shows also allow clubs, judges, and stewards to gain the experience needed for licensed events. FSS Open Shows are run much like a match on the day of the event. Miscellaneous Class breeds will be considered equivalent to a Group as will the FSS breeds. The winner of the Miscellaneous Class & FSS Groups will go on to compete Best in FSS Open Show."

Does this sound like Misc Class breeds are separate from recognized breeds? And could I enter my poodle in in an FSS Open Show for fun? 

Separate questions: 

1) Do you have to attach or bring your dog's AKC papers and health record when you enter a show? 

2) If your dog is not participating in a show, are you allowed to bring your dog, or is this not advisable? 

3) Some dogs I'd never want to compete with, such as the Smash Poodles who have expert handlers. I love Smash, but they win a lot. How do you find out who you're competing against? 

And I'd like a Star Trek transporter too!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

FSS is foundation stock service. It is a service/opportunity that AKC provides for up and coming breeds that are not yet fully recognized to participate in the big game so to speak. Here is a link. https://www.akc.org/dog-breeds/groups/foundation-stock-service/


You would not be able to enter FSS with a poodle, but you could enter an all breed B match for fun.


As to your other questions:


1) Do you have to attach or bring your dog's AKC papers and health record when you enter a show?
*No you do not. You do have to have a registration number for the venue you are entering in order to enter. Health records are not required and that the dog is currently healthy is on your honor as is not being an attractive in season bitch.
*
2) If your dog is not participating in a show, are you allowed to bring your dog, or is this not advisable?
*Usually not! Most premiums and/or judging programs will say something to the effect of "no unentered dogs on show grounds." That doesn't mean people heed that though. I have never brought a dog with me that wasn't doing something (other than once or twice when Javelin was very young).*


3) Some dogs I'd never want to compete with, such as the Smash Poodles who have expert handlers. I love Smash, but they win a lot. How do you find out who you're competing against? 

*You would not know who is entered until you see the catalog at the show. The judging program tells how many dogs are entered so handlers can know if they will possibly get majors points, but the program doesn't show who the entries are.*

Vita, I thought you had decided against entering Bella in conformation. As I recall you have said she doesn't love grooming and her coat isn't spectacular. If it were one of mine I would not play in conformation just for the heck of it. I doubt I would find it to be fun at all. If I were you and really wanted to play in dog sports I would try rally, obedience or agility.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita said:


> Separate questions:
> 
> 1) Do you have to attach or bring your dog's AKC papers and health record when you enter a show?
> 
> ...


If conformation is like rally, you put your dog's AKC number on the entry form and that's it. You don't need any health records. 

If your dog is well behaved but not entered, you can usually bring them.

Remember Bella needs to be in a continental clip for AKC conformation if she's over 1 year, or a puppy clip if under 1 year. 

Have you guys done conformation classes? I can't imagine walking in blindly without at least a class. I did a beginner novice run-through yesterday and was humbled by how many details there are that you learn through practice. I made so many mistakes!

Good luck


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> Vita, I thought you had decided against entering Bella in conformation. As I recall you have said she doesn't love grooming and her coat isn't spectacular. If it were one of mine I would not play in conformation just for the heck of it. I doubt I would find it to be fun at all. If I were you and really wanted to play in dog sports I would try rally, obedience or agility.


Completely agree! Rally is a fabulous starting point and so much fun.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Oh, I dunno Catherine, look at her gorgeous coat at 4-1/2 and almost 3 months old:



​
Here she is at 6 months old:

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I was just a lousy groomer, and ended up giving her a full haircut in March due to the daily tangles and matts. I really should have paid a relative to drive us far away to get a profession show clip, but that's water under the bridge. Bella hated being blow dried, but I tried it again with a regular hair dryer, and she was surprisingly cool about it.

Her hair has been growing back nicely and I'm mainly hoping her tail will evolve into a pom; here's a top-down view of her coat (air dried, not blow dried) and tail taken 10 days ago. 

Question: Do you all think it'll be long enough for a Continental Clip by November, when there are another round of cluster dog shows in my area? Or maybe I'll have to wait until early next year?

This was taken three weeks ago. Just look at that cute little face and she has a nice body. Seems like it might be fun to at least try. 

​
I'll think and explore more about rally or obedience classes in my area, maybe I can find one just for toy & mini-group dogs since Bella is only 5 or 6 lbs.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

She is very cute and clearly the sweet light of your life, but I don't think she has great coat and I doubt you will have enough for a continental in November. Read some of Mysticrealm's posts about showing Asher and how hard and disappointing it has been for her. It doesn't sound like my kind of fun. I hope you are not still thinking about breeding her either. I would spay her and play at sports that don't care if she is intact or how good or what style her coat is.


I think Lily is beautiful, and Javelin is magnificent and the grandson of Mikimoto, but neither of them would ever have shown up in a breed ring.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

It's fascinating to me that you feel that way about your own gorgeous Spoos, either who appear to be good confirmation candidates. But I'm a newbie and you're not so you see things I don't yet have an eye for.

I think after getting Bella's coat on the right track, I need to find a local mentor or consultant who can examine up close and go point by point of her strengths and flaws. Maybe I'll meet someone at an upcoming show.

Breeding her isn't even on my radar, and at her age, it would be akin to child abuse. I thought she came in heat on 7/1, which was a disappointment since I hoped it wouldn't come until 14+ months, but I see no signs of it today. Nothing, nada, zip. Her lady parts are more poofy than a week before, but that's it. Could this have been a surge of hormones in preparation for a heat?

Otherwise I can't quite seem to let go of conformation showing. Those poodles look so elegant and beautiful in the ring; it's still on my bucket list before I get too old to try.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

double post


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Vita, I can tell you that keeping up a show coat is a royal pain, even on a toy! Furthermore, learning to pattern and scissor takes a long time and an excellent teacher. I did not show in conformation for many years, so I did not pattern and scissor Zoe in the current "fashion". You see, it is not enough to know the basic pattern - you have to know how it is currently being done by the top handlers. Betty told me to move Zoe's mane back nearly 1/2 inch, raise the bracelets about a half-inch and grow them bigger, and increase the size of the rosettes and move them back a bit. That was in May - it will take quite awhile for those changes to completely take effect!


Furthermore, to keep up a show coat involves wrapping or braiding the topknot and ears. That means they have to be brushed out at least every other day. Bathing is once a week and air drying is not acceptable - they must be blow dried. Nails need to be done at least once a week (I'm really bad about that part).


So what I am saying is that playing the conformation game takes lots of time and studying. Just as soon as Zoe finishes that coat is going to come off!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Of course one can play in UKC conformation and have a lot of fun without the need for all the big hair and its special care required to be competitive in AKC. UKC can also be a bit less intimidating for newbies but we do have our our share of win at any cost and total snobs. As mentioned before any venue will have those but many are just out to have a fun weekend with their dog.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

I love those shows at the Howard County Fairground. I wanted to enter bUT missed the deadline. I have also heard that the poodle entry is not all that large this year.

This show site is normally very crowded and might be difficult walking around with an unentered dog.

If you go to watch, enjoy yourself, it is a nice show, and many nice exhibitors.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Hey Farley, yes, I've been to the Howard County Fairgrounds long ago and is nice! I used to show two of my Himalayans in the late 1980s or early 1990s, and I think that's one of the places I went to; one made it to Champion in only two shows. I also took my son there in the '90s when he was very young to watch a dog show.

And yes everyone, I really do know better to not take my girl when/if she's in heat to a dog show or anywhere for that matter!


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm going to try to say this once then leave these threads alone because it's been very frustrating. When you first started asking questions about showing I took time to give you detailed responses and explanations thinking that you actually wanted and was willing to take advice. And as time went on you've shown that you are not willing to listen to anyone.
1. You are not willing to do the coat maintenance. You have been given all the advice that anyone can give you over the internet. Enough advice that you should be able to reasonably care for your dogs coat, and you have simply refused to do it. And don't tell me that you will start cause you won't. You've had this info for months and you haven't done it so you're not going to.
2. You are not going to be capable of doing an akc show trim, yet you aren't willing to pursue a professional to help. Even if you decide that you are going to do an HCC you still aren't going to be capable of doing that trim. That trim has all the same elements as a full continental just without the spray up and needs to be even better done than a full conti because you don't have the wow factor of the spray up.
3. No one has looked at the dog that has the capabilities to say if it's show quality or not. And even if you did have someone look at the dog I'm not sure that you would listen. You have been told by many people on here that your dog does not have a good coat and yet multiple times still you brag about it's coat. And you use terms like 'silky' to describe the coat which is incredibly wrong for a show coat to be silky, which makes me feel like either you didn't bother to read the standard or you just don't care what a good poodle should entail.
And you are not going to find and keep any mentors if you do the same thing with them as you do to us. Asking advice then giving that advice the middle finger. You'll lose any respect real quick that way.

Sorry if I'm sounding rude, and I won't come back to your threads on showing again, but I felt I needed to say my peace.
Go show UKC if you want to show for fun but not put the work in.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Here is yet another reason we need the Star Trek transporter. You and Zoe could come to W. Springfield and Lily, Javelin and I would come up to cheer you on.


 Yep - a transporter would sure come in handy! I do come to Long Island from time to time because my daughter lives in Port Washington. Since I fly there, I don't bring Zoe along.


I would love to meet you (and Lily, Javelin, and Peeves) the next time I come.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Mysticrealm, I began this thread with a question about the difference between All-Breed & FSS Open Shows. At no time did I ask, inquire, nor solicit advice about grooming. Catherine brought up it up with her comment about Bella's coat 'not being spectacular', followed by telling me I should spay her.

And Catherine, you've read enough of my posts to know I've dreamed of doing confirmation shows for fun and possibly having a litter to carry on Bella's great and healthy genes. You have no idea of her pedigree; it's marvelous, and Bella is too. She's not fault-free, but she has some real strengths.



Mysticrealm said:


> ...You have been told by many people on here that your dog does not have a good coat and yet multiple times still you brag about it's coat.


It's 'her' coat, not 'it's' coat. And the only two people who have told me she doesn't have a good coat were you and Catherine, on this thread three weeks ago, _How do you fluff up the tail for pom-pom?_, and again today. You think I forgot so soon? 

As for my not taking advice, you couldn't be more wrong. I bought a multitude of hair products for Bella since I got her. I purchased an expensive HV dryer which I think you suggested; unfortunately it terrified her. Her thick hair was so long that at one time that it matted the same day of grooming. Then I took Catherine's advice and trimmed it all off to start anew. That was back in March. The only advice I didn't do was drive way out in the boonies to a show groomer b/c of my fear of beltway driving. 

A few weeks ago, I blow dried Bella for the first time since March and she handled it extremely, surprisingly well. This re-ignited my dream of showing and maybe I could talk a relative into driving me to a show groomer. 

What's so horribly wrong with my fulfilling my bucket list of wanting to do some, or at least one, conformation show? Do you honestly think I care if I lose? And Catherine, you said conformation wasn't your idea of fun. I accept that you feel that way, but that's what I want to try. _Try_. That's all. At least, if Bella continues to mature and goes along with it. 

And Mysticrealm, what's wrong with my thinking and as you say, "bragging" that my dog has a beautiful coat? If PF isn't the place to brag about your poodle, I don't know where that is. 

Okay, so her tail fur was stringy but the hair was long and as one member said, it may still be her soft puppy coat. Another factor is that I am heavy handed on the Cowboy Magic b/c I _like_ that soft, silky look; the wooly haired look, not so much. And yes, I realize that the sheep's wool appearance on a poodle instead of it's natural curls is the thing, and I'll do it for show, but at home that's the look I _like_. 

Three weeks ago, I immediately ordered the _Nature's Specialty Hair Raiser_ that Viking Queen suggested on my tail pom thread, trimmed it down as was suggested by another member, and this is a top down view of how it looked afterwards, two weeks ago:

​
I'm off from work tomorrow and will bathe and blow dry again, and see if it's improved, and update my PF friends who don't seem to mind my questions from what I can tell.

So no, your assessment of my ignoring advice is simply untrue, and if you were here, I'd show you the receipts to prove it. 

Now you talked about respect. 



Mysticrealm said:


> And you use terms like 'silky' to describe the coat which is incredibly wrong for a show coat to be silky, which makes me feel like either you didn't bother to read the standard or you just don't care what a good poodle should entail.
> And you are not going to find and keep any mentors if you do the same thing with them as you do to us. Asking advice then giving that advice the middle finger. You'll lose any respect real quick that way.
> 
> Sorry if I'm sounding rude, and I won't come back to your threads on showing again, but I felt I needed to say my peace.
> Go show UKC if you want to show for fun but not put the work in.


That was just over the top, and co-signers should be ashamed of themselves. Saying others "will lose respect" for me is a subliminal message to others that I shouldn't be respected, and that all the assumptions you made are true when they are not. Is that what you want? And are you really sorry for not only sounding rude, but being rude _and_ bossy? 

I don't know how or why this simple thread turned into a field of land mines.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well grooming is a HUGE part of showing poodles! So I do think it's relevant in the discussion here. I think Mysticrealm and Lily are just being honest about Bella's coat when others simply don't know as much as they do. Be open to criticism because you will get a LOT of it in conformation showing. I don't really know _anyone_ who considers showing in conformation "fun;" Catherine definitely isn't the only one who feels that way.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Vita I very highly encourage you to attend an AKC show as an observer. If I were you, I would attend a show or two without Bella and simply watch. Watch the poodles being judged (all 3 sizes!) but also REALLY watch the handlers, and the poodle grooming areas, etc. Do not approach any person or handler who is getting a poodle ready for the ring, especially when they are standing outside the ring holding their poodle, waiting for their turn to go in the ring. That is when nerves are the highest and the dog and handler need to be completely focused. 

After judging is finished, and they go back to their grooming areas to take down the hairspray, etc, then you may be able to chat a bit with them then. But really you will probably learn more by simply watching, and watching, and watching. Watch the handlers more than the dogs. You will soon see what it takes to go to a show. After you attend one or two shows just watching, and maybe become a familiar face to some of the handlers (maybe suggest at one of the shows that you have a toy and would like a handler to take a look if you bring her with you to a future show) Handlers usually don't mind taking a quick look at a dog because they may want to handle for you, plus they like to keep tabs on their competition. 

Also, I'm not sure if you like reading, but if you do, definitely check out the Melanie Travis Mystery series by the author Laurien Berenson. Those books will teach you so so much about showing poodles and are quite accurate in most of their show information. The inner workings of dog shows are something that it is very hard to learn unless you are actually in the middle of it. But the books do a great job of educating the general public. I learned so much about showing from those books, and they are also downright entertaining.

Lastly I would suggest that you can show Bella in UKC and not have to worry about having the hair! I recently took Luna to her first UKC show and we had a great time. Feel free to read more about it in this thread that I just posted: https://www.poodleforum.com/27-showing/264279-lunas-first-ukc-conformation-show.html

Good luck, and if you really have dreams of getting into the show ring, do it! Just don't go in with unrealistic expectations. By taking the candid advice of others here, observing at AKC shows, and possibly taking Bella to compete in UKC shows, you can learn a lot and have fun doing it!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Chinchillafuzzy*, thanks for taking the time to respond in a gentle voice, and the tips about talking to handlers and the Melanie Travis Mystery series. 

And I spent the past hour reading your new UKC thread and watching and learning from your videos, and it's dynamite. 

Time to move on from this and I wish everyone a great day.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

As a general rule, unentered dogs are not allowed at AKC shows. It usually states that in the catalog. The purpose of that was to reduce the risk of dogs who have transmissible diseases on the site.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Johanna said:


> As a general rule, unentered dogs are not allowed at AKC shows. It usually states that in the catalog. The purpose of that was to reduce the risk of dogs who have transmissible diseases on the site.


In my show premiums, it says dogs that aren't eligible to be shown aren't allowed; mine ARE eligible  I plan on taking Frosty to the Carmel show next weekend to see his breeder and his niece's mom show. He is used to the show scene, so it won't be a problem.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In the Northeast I think most shows are "no unentered dogs" scenes. I have seen every now and again people who brought badly behaved dogs to outdoor shows. I don't know what kinds of headaches they caused near the conformation rings, but they were nightmares for those of us in the obedience and rally rings. Maybe it is a matter of how much open space there is. And ZM I am sure Frosty will be a gentleman and most welcome.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> In the Northeast I think most shows are "no unentered dogs" scenes. I have seen every now and again people who brought badly behaved dogs to outdoor shows. I don't know what kinds of headaches they caused near the conformation rings, but they were nightmares for those of us in the obedience and rally rings. Maybe it is a matter of how much open space there is. And ZM I am sure Frosty will be a gentleman and most welcome.


Frosty is perfectly behaved at shows and trials, otherwise I guarantee you I'd leave him home. I hate seeing when a dog outside distracts a dog competing :angry: Oh, and if the venue is small and crowded, I wouldn't bring him either.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

zooeysmom said:


> Frosty is perfectly behaved at shows and trials, otherwise I guarantee you I'd leave him home. I hate seeing when a dog outside distracts a dog competing :angry: Oh, and if the venue is small and crowded, I wouldn't bring him either.


If only everyone were as sensible and considerate as you. I've had agility runs ruined by little kids hanging on the ring gates with lollipops and ice cream cones. Admittedly my training should have been able to call Lily off those distractions, but some things are just too hard for any dog to resist.


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