# Forum suggestion



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

A breeder friend of mine who lurks here on occassion has made a suggestion for the forum.I don't know what you all think, or if it is even logistically possible but here goes...

She has been reading the thread about redstandscolorado, and while it appears some of the members have had personal contact with this breeder, the truth is, if someone just had it in for a breeder because they do not like them, or they have a bone to pick for whatever reason, someone could easily come on here and start a thread and really create a lot of damage to a breeder's reputation rightfully or unjustifiably so. Is there any way we could have it set up here so if a thread is begun regarding a breeder, they are sent an email to let them know their operation is being discussed on the forum, with a link, so they have the choice of coming here or not to at least defend themselves? I don't know how much difficulty this could create for the administrators or the moderators because I have never run a forum. But I do know from some of the stuff that has gone on here, that there ARE other breeders who have a whole lot to say about some other breeders even though it is all inneundo and unfounded hogwash. This would just alert a breeder to the fact their kennel has come up and give them a chance to say their piece. Thsi in no way means we are cowtowing to bad breeders, because once they are here we can fire away with questions to confirm or lay to rest concerns that have come up. But it may spare some innocent breeders who are doing their best to do things right and be the best they can be of being badmouthed by a jealous competitor, angry potential buyer who has been denied a puppy, etc. 

What do you think? In all fairness, I think it is a humane idea.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Although I agree with the thought that it would be fair to an unsuspecting breeder, and several other things you have mentioned, I am worried about the can of worms this could open up. 

It was my experience that nearly all threads that went bad and had to be closed were in the breeding section. These wars get very ugly and mud slinging starts almost immediately. I don't know how that would be effectively moderated. I do know that it takes up a lot of the moderators time to keep an eye on these.

Certainly not all breeders being bashed and called bad are so. But, I wonder if this is the venue through which these problems should be addressed. __Through this forum we have the option to give our own opinion on a breeder that is in the dog house for whatever reason. This has always served as a good avenue for those who disagree to post their opinions and factual information to prove their opinion. __I think, as always, it is up to potential puppy buyers to do their research themselves and make their own decisions about a breeder based on the information they have gathered and how they feel about them after contacting them.

This is just my opinion. I would be very interested in hearing what the other moderators have to say about this. Perhaps there is another way to view this that I have not thought of.

Thank you, Arreau, for posting good food for thought.


_


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Although I am not a moderator, I see your points and agree it is a humane idea. But I think this would cause even more chaos TBH. 

I do not think moderators should be responsible for contacting breeders being mentioned in a negative light. 

IMO there is a reason a breeder is brought up good, bad and indifferent. And knowledge is power when trying to purchase from a good breeder. 

I think it would be much easier for a moderator or the people who run this lovely forum to determine some of the content being discussed. As spoospirit said the mud slinging and ugliness that comes out of some of these threads are just a waste of time and energy. 

It is obvious there are sh*t stirrers that come on here and zero in on their target for whatever reason, this is why some of us try to call them to the table to nip it in the bud......but the person being targeted has a hard time keeping quiet, I know I would. 

Maybe the content of speaking of specific breeders openly should be considered to go to a private conversation or chat if this ever happens.


----------



## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

Tough one, but important to bring up. If everyone was ethical in relating their experiences, it would of course be great. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.
It is a tricky area to be able to share ones poor experiences with a breeder, but man, it's a way to protect others from the same situation! This is has such huge value, as we know a breeders website can be a totally false representation. 
I feel for the breeders who dot their i'd and cross their t's, love their dogs and do everything right. It only takes a few people to hurt them,


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Olie said:


> Maybe the content of speaking of specific breeders openly should be considered to go to a private conversation or chat if this ever happens.


OK... here's another perspective... :lol: There's no shortage of perspectives here, is there?? 

Pretend that I am a prospective puppy buyer and am looking at ABC Standard Poodles for my next baby (I'm using this kennel name for an example, if there really IS an ABC kennel, I apologize - I don't mean YOU specifically!)

If I start a thread here and ask for information regarding this breeder and a forum member has solid, true information about their program that may help me make an informed decision whether to do business with this kennel (or not) and all conversations between the members who actually KNOW something negative about this breeder are conducted via private message, how will that be helping me know what I should be knowing?

If I go directly to the breeder and ask for references, they'll more than likely cherry pick the people THEY want me talking to and not people who haven't had the best experiences with them (right?) so even though I'm trying to conduct due diligence and get information, if the information I am given is "planted", I'm not learning what I'd need to know... 

Am I making any sense at all? :lol: usually not, I know... 

Anyway - as far as forum members or moderators being tasked with the duty of informing any breeder who has uncomplimentary posts about them here on the forum; I think that may be difficult... what if a thread gets missed? Will the breeder being discussed get miffed when they do find out? Also, who would be the one to judge whether the statements are of sufficient nature for the notice to be given? One person may not see anything wrong with a certain post, while another individual may be deeply offended... It's a matter of that pesky perspective again...

I would say that if there is a member of this forum who is getting uncomfortable with how a breeder related thread is progressing - that person has a choice... they can contact the breeder on their own (it is a free country after all) to let them know they're being discussed; or they can contact a moderator or the administrator who can then take a look at the thread and issue warnings if necessary or close the thread if it gets really out of hand...

I LOVE being a part of this forum. I know there are times when people are called on the carpet for certain things (most commonly breeding - and it's because all of the poodle passionate people on this forum want every poodle baby being produced to have the ultimate chance at a long, healthy life!!) but most of the time, even the disagreements can be had with respect to everyone involved - it only gets ugly if a breeder (or anyone, really) is unable to rationally discuss their viewpoint with maturity when the hard questions are asked...

IMHO... 

ps... did I talk too much again? :doh:


----------



## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

I tend to agree that it would be impossible to "fairly" moderate every thread related to a breeder by sending them an email and would probably stir the pot even more. However, I completely see the point Arreau is making because it does seem like sometimes folks just join in order to complain about a breeder. Perhaps, threads such as "Never go to ABC Kennel(taking your line plum they take your money and ..........." should not be allowed. Whereas, "has anyone had personal experience with ABC Kennel?" I guess it would really end up the same way, but at least that allows for viewpoints from any angle. 


Just a though(shrugs shoulders).


----------



## Spencer (Oct 7, 2009)

KalaMama said:


> I tend to agree that it would be impossible to "fairly" moderate every thread related to a breeder by sending them an email and would probably stir the pot even more. However, I completely see the point Arreau is making because it does seem like sometimes folks just join in order to complain about a breeder. Perhaps, threads such as "Never go to ABC Kennel(taking your line plum they take your money and ..........." should not be allowed. Whereas, "has anyone had personal experience with ABC Kennel?" I guess it would really end up the same way, but at least that allows for viewpoints from any angle.
> 
> 
> Just a though(shrugs shoulders).


+1

Well said!


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Just my two cents, but I think this is just the nature of the internet. If I see a first-time poster on a forum (any forum) bashing a breeder or company or whatnot, I will stop and question the validity of that post. Does the poster just have a bone to pick? Is it a competitor? Do they have some personal problem with that breeder? On the flip side, if a long-time poster is critical of a breeder or company or whatever, I take it more seriously because they person has already been established within the community.

On the other side of things, a good breeder (or company, or hotel, or whatever) will have enough of a good reputation to overcome someone with a personal agenda. For every one-post wonder, there will be others who will chime in and say they had good experiences. If you are a good breeder and have good dogs, I believe they will speak for themselves at the end of the day.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.

Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?

With the most recent incident surrounding Red Standards, what was said about the breeder that di not turn out to be pretty spot on?

I think the good, bad and the ugly that comes out about breeders just serves to educate people.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I vote for free speech !!!!

Any breeder googling his/her own name will automatically be directed to a thread on this forum and I guess any breeder like any "business" would check the net for "references" - I know I would .

I agree with Cbrand in all aspects !

I know "too much for my own good" but do not bring anything up until somebody asks about particular litter or a breeder. And, of course, I always have a proof - good OR bad...

I do not remember that we had any case where given breeder "accused" of "malpractice" actually proved to be "other way around" :rolffleyes:

I think that one of the strongest attributes of this forum is the fact that people do exchange the experience when dealing with certain breeders and help in that way not only future pet-buyers but breeders too !!!

Couple of times our breeder members (including yourself) wanted to know the name of potentially murky breeder so they would be careful about those and not recommend them.

I like the things as they are here ...at least to the most part LOL


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> If I start a thread here and ask for information regarding this breeder and a forum member has solid, true information about their program that may help me make an informed decision whether to do business with this kennel (or not) and all conversations between the members who actually KNOW something negative about this breeder are conducted via private message, how will that be helping me know what I should be knowing?


I should have added sarcasm to my last original sentence you quoted Plumcrazy. The likelyhood of taking it to PM is not usually going to happen, it was merely a suggestion. Sometime I wish when it does get heated as Mods including yourself have suggested, take it to PM We tend to lose the education when people are being obviously ugly. 

But I too, want to hear the good, bad and indifferent


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Sorry I am slow to respond, I am steam cleaning carpet in between posts! I am all for free speech too! And I do not think going the PM route is the answer. Lies can and are told on PM's just as they can be in threads. My biggest concern (and my friends) is that someone can come on here, one thread wonder or not, and post all kinds of nonsense and BS about someone just because, for whatever reason, they do not like them. I am sure a lot of you have received private messages from a particular member on here, spouting lies and crap about me not being who you think I am, and spouting off all kinds of things about me an my breeding practices. Well, the truth is, this person does not personally know me or anything about me. She is going on things she has been told by two former members and acts as their voice. They both have a beef with me because I have spoken out against them and their ethics and practices. She could do the same thing in a thread about me, and that is fine, and would actually be better because I could then address the matter in public and maybe finally hear the end of it. But if it hadn't been for other members who were either friends who this person did not realize I had a relationship with, or other members ticked at what she was saying, or people wanting my version of things, and sending me copy and pasted copies of their PMs I would never have known what she was saying about me. Maybe I picked up on my friend's comment about this because I am sensitive because of what I have been through. I am not trying to make this thread about me at all, but my point is, all of the things that have been said about me in PM's out to the members would have gone unnoticed by me if others had not brought this to my attention. And to me, letting breeders KNOW their name is being thrown around gives them a chance, just like I have been given a chance, to address the issues being brought up.

We all know from past experience that the bad guys never prevail on here. They just end up looking like even bigger idiots and verifying to everyone that their suspicions or knowledge were correct after all. So, I am not suggesting that these discussions go to private message...this forum is to educate...I think it should continue exactly as it has. I just think as long as there is a slim, even an iota of a possibilty that someone might be spoken of badly because of someone elses sour grapes, they should be given a chance to tell evveryone on here their version of things and either clear things up for everyone, or confirm that they are an idiot and lay our suspicions to rest. A quick email to let them know who we are, where we are, and be given a chance to speak their piece...that's all. BTW...I love it here too in spite of the few who have tried and failed to make my life miserable.


----------



## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

totally hear what your saying. 

and one has to be careful with libel/slander as well.... as a forumowner. you can find yoruself up to your elbows with lawyers before you know it.


----------



## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

cbrand said:


> It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.
> 
> Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?
> 
> ...


Ditto!!!!
I too am for free speech and having threads monitor to such extent gives me a sour taste in my mouth.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> Ditto!!!!
> I too am for free speech and having threads monitor to such extent gives me a sour taste in my mouth.


You are missing my point. I am not suggesting if we know things that we do not say them. And I am certainly not suggesting these threads be monitored. I am simply suggesting or asking if there is a way to let breeders know their business is being discussed, and giving them an opportunity to refute what is being said, or prove they are exactly what members thought they were in the first place.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> It seems to me that truth is always protection against libel. If someone were to come on and make claims about a breeder it seems that looking at the facts: breeding practices et al would support or refute the claims (or there may be room for discussion). It seems to me that most good breeders have very little to worry about.
> 
> Not too long ago, a buyer came on and complained that a breeder had kept her deposit but not provided a puppy. Looking at the breeder's web site, it was clear that the breeder was running a rather dodgey program. Should we have contacted the breeder to let her know that we were talking about her? To what end? To call her to task?
> 
> ...


Yes, what came out about the red breeder was spot on. And I agree, the good, bad and ugly needs to come out about breeders, so long as we are certain it is ALL truth. 

Just suppose for a second that you were not a member here. Someone who you denied puppy ownership comes on and lies about their experience with you because they are pissed with you. They talk bad about you, about the conditions at your place, say horrible things about your dogs...now, if you were not a member, how would you know? How could you tell everyone who this is and why they are saying these things? I so agree with you. Everyone needs to know everything and a good breeder really should not have to worry, but the truth is we should all be worried because there are nasty people out there who will say anything under a screen name or alias because they think they can damage an adversary or someone who they feel has dissed them, all the while feeling safe and free of worry of retribution because we REALLY might not know who they are. So, in my mind it is just fair to let the person being talked about knowledge of what is going on so they have a chance to explain their side of things.


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

Im really surprised at the amount of specific breeder referencing and negative things posted here. Most forums will not allow half of the stuff that goes on here and for good reasons, legal liability. Even if there isn't a final judgement, the threat of a lawsuit and expense of defense is more than most boards want to take on. 

And what happens when someone says something about one of the every growing advertised sponsors of this board? Is this free speech going to be allowed or is that going to be censored? I can't imagine many sponsors taking kindly to their products or customer service being negatively implicated on this forum. So what is the difference with that and a breeder? You are playing with fire if you ask me.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I hear you Jillian, but I know how I post. I will not say anything that cannot be proven by going onto the breeder's own web site and pulling out the info, or going to the Poodle Health Registry or Poodlepedigree.com and getting the info there. You cannot be convicted of libel or slander if you are speaking the truth. And, correct me if I'm wrong, if someone brings a case against you and you are found not guilty, are they not responsible for the court costs of the defendant and the plaintiff? I know that is how it works in small claims court here in Canada. If you stick to the truth and stick to facts there should not be a problem.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Jillian said:


> You are playing with fire if you ask me.


I'm confused about this statement... WHO, exactly, is playing with fire and WHY?? I don't understand what this means...

As far as forum members saying either complimentary or uncomplimentary things about breeders or other advertisers on this forum, as long as they aren't making things up or lying about the breeder or advertiser, I can't see where that would be any problem at all... it is a person's opinion of the product (good or bad) and in this country, I'm pretty sure it's still OK to have an opinion...


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Just suppose for a second that you were not a member here. Someone who you denied puppy ownership comes on and lies about their experience with you because they are pissed with you. They talk bad about you, about the conditions at your place, say horrible things about your dogs...now, if you were not a member, how would you know?


Well, I Google my kennel name to see what comes up. That way I can address it if need be. 

But how is this public forum different from private listservs or even private conversation at say a dog show. You think we dish it out... sit ringside once in a while! People have opinions. If your opinions differ, tell us why.

As for the negative comments some breeders receive.... God bless this forum. I think this forum has done a great job of educating buyers and owners and of exposing bad breeders.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Posting somebody's opinion is NOT illegal in any shape or form. That is how "consumer reports" are made and are all over the net and are even printed in magazines LMAO and many web-consumer related sites !!! If I do not like Eucanuba dog food and think it causes my dog to have diarrhea - hell I am going to post it LMAO 

Second - libel is present ONLY if somebody is accusing the person with false documents and proofs and ONLY that person is than liable for such thing, not the forum owner !!!!!It also has to be proven that it was intentional and false and actually DID make a dent in somebody's standing and reputation and business.

There is a service called " Servicemagic" that rates all local contractors in my area. Every member has a right to rate his contractor !!!!! If "Joe-the-plumber" installed a rusty old pipe in my bathroom -the hell I will post it !!!! Is that a libel ???? NO !!!! If somebody personally hates Joe and writes a false report - is that a libel - YES ! If I come to read reports about Joe - and have no idea who Joe is and see 20 posts about how Joe is great guy and one or two that say - this guy sucks - to whom do you think I will believe ??? To other 20 people who said he is great, of course !!!!

I rate my doctors, my kids rate their teachers , costumers rate my husband's product - where is the problem ????????? 


Third - some members here obviously personally know this breeder and are in NO competition with the same :rolffleyes: IMO BTW , I was really shocked seeing those topsy-turvy posts written by the mentioned person.I think that in her/his case coming here made a situation much worse since we all have forgotten about that initial post loooooooooong ago - I never even heard about "red-whatever" ..."",,,,,"""


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with you Cbrand about the value of having this place to expose bad breeders. I just feel everyone should have the opportunity to defend themselves. It is nothing like ringside. What you say ringside goes from your mouth to someone else's ears. What we say on here can be seen by hundreds, maybe thousands, and if a kennel name comes up enough in a thread it ends up in a Google search, Then it has the potential to reach millions.

I am not going to be a hypocrite. If a thread started even tonight, about a breeder I knew negative info about, or I went to their web site and saw they were clearly lying about health testing or whatever, I will continue to share what I have discovered. But I still feel there ought to be a way to give even the breeders we find out are bad an opportunity to "have their day in court". (Not literally..lol!)


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> it is a person's opinion of the product (good or bad) and in this country, I'm pretty sure it's still OK to have an opinion...


Agree! 



wishpoo said:


> Posting somebody's opinion is NOT illegal in any shape or form. That is how "consumer reports" are made and are all over the net and are even printed in magazines LMAO and many web-consumer related sites !!! If I do not like Eucanuba dog food and think it causes my dog to have diarrhea - hell I am going to post it LMAO
> 
> *Second - libel is present ONLY if somebody is accusing the person with false documents and proofs and ONLY that person is than liable for such thing, not the forum owner !!!!!It also has to be proven that it was intentional and false and actually DID make a dent in somebody's standing and reputation and business.*


I wonder if this could be posted somewhere in BOLD letters! :doh: Agree 100%


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Jillian said:


> Im really surprised at the amount of specific breeder referencing and negative things posted here. Most forums will not allow half of the stuff that goes on here and for good reasons, legal liability. Even if there isn't a final judgement, the threat of a lawsuit and expense of defense is more than most boards want to take on.
> 
> And what happens when someone says something about one of the every growing advertised sponsors of this board? Is this free speech going to be allowed or is that going to be censored? I can't imagine many sponsors taking kindly to their products or customer service being negatively implicated on this forum. So what is the difference with that and a breeder? You are playing with fire if you ask me.


_I find myself having to agree with you Jillian. That is what has concerned me in the past with some of the posts I read and had to moderate. And, yes, most forums would never allow posts to get as far as they do here. 

We had a horrible problem on our Town's website recently. The offenders were the ones screaming freedom of speech. This is what I posted: 
_
Taken from Wikapedia
*Freedom of speech* is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. The synonymous term *freedom of expression* is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. *In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country and the right is commonly subject to limitations, such as on* "hate speech".
The right to freedom of speech is recognized as a human right under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and recognized in international human rights law in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). The ICCPR recognizes the right to freedom of speech as "the right to hold opinions without interference. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression".[1][2] Furthermore freedom of speech is recognized in European, inter-American and African regional human rights law.


_You'll notice that I have made red and bolded the part that I am focusing on. Freedom of speech DOES NOT mean a free-for-all. The really sad part is that these threads usually start off well but quickly deteriorate to a level that, indeed, could put us in a position of libel, defamation of character, etc. 
_
_
_
_This does not mean to say that the information against a particular member/breeder or what-have-you is not true. But, when it gets so low that it is nothing more than a he-said/she-said, and name calling, we have definitely stepped over the line and are at risk._


_In a perfect world, everyone would be able to express their opinions without resorting to hate speech; however, we do not live in that perfect world. We can't monitor all peoples constantly. It would be a real job for someone to have to be responsible for deciding when posts have become a threat to a breeder; then have to notify them when they are being spoken about negatively and I do not believe that is the purpose for moderators on any forum._


_I certainly understand your concern, Arreau. I am one who would instinctively want an opportunity to defend myself against bad press if it were to be going on and I wasn't aware of it. But, I also feel that if your breeding program is being attacked, someone you know or who is looking into your program is going to let you know about it. Then you have to decide if this is something you want to pursue on a public forum taking the chance it might go ugly fast or leave it and let your reputation stand for itself. Coming on cold to a forum just to defend your kennel is going to raise red flags immediately so that you are already behind the eight ball. At least that is what I have seen here.
_


_
_


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _Although I agree with the thought that it would be fair to an unsuspecting breeder, and several other things you have mentioned, I am worried about the can of worms this could open up.
> 
> It was my experience that nearly all threads that went bad and had to be closed were in the breeding section. These wars get very ugly and mud slinging starts almost immediately. I don't know how that would be effectively moderated. I do know that it takes up a lot of the moderators time to keep an eye on these.
> 
> ...


I agree with Spoospirit's general overall thinking & it would be very hard to moderate.

This forum has a very tight group of friends that are on this forum daily, that I think are pretty like mindedness. That is usually why friends get together and hang out. They stand up for each other. Here is my point. I cannot see a breeder or member getting a fare shack once this main group disagrees with them.

Image getting an e-mail stating that someone is saying negative things about you. You come onto the forum and you have to what?... prove these things are true or false. I think that would be very hard and intimidating, even with the best of intentions.


----------



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Some people want information to fall at their feet in front of them, from someone they know or feel they can trust. An individual has to reach out to find and discern their own truth.

People can and do see things differently, even absolute truths. It doesn't change truth; it is their perspective of what that that truth is to them. When an individual can only see their own view, their own idea of right and wrong it consists of that which they desire for themselves.

For example, two people are looking at a building (truth) from two different corners of the building. When they describe the building they will describe a different facade of that building and both descriptions will be different from each of those people. That’s not to say either one are telling a falsehood about what the true description of the building is, but that they are telling their perspective what that building looks like, their version of the truth. This perspective is based on the knowledge of what they have been taught, the experiences in their personal life and what society may be influencing as a whole. While the truth doesn't change, how you perceive it and how I perceive it will have a tendency to be different.

So what people say as to their experiences with a kennel or a breeder is the truth from their perspective. Not to say it is false, but that each individual should find their own truth. How you discover your perspective of that truth is by evaluating that kennel and breeder for yourself.

“Although there is a universal reality and a universal truth, individual reality and individual truth are merely manipulations you create for yourself out of the data that you choose. True, the data that flows towards any individual is incomplete and each individual builds their reality and truth frameworks from that incomplete data. -Mr. Prophet”

As to your original thought…I am a computer expert, of over 28 years and the majority of my time as an email architect, it is possible to key in on words based on a given list. However, someone would have to populate a database of all values and write a program to search the forum and then trigger an email to be sent based on values that have been met.

Based on a moderator doing it, it would be inconsistent and would be unfair to both the moderator and the kennel or the name of a person they missed in a thread.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

_Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.[1][2] In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic.[3] In some countries, a victim of hate speech may seek redress under civil law, criminal law, or both._

"Hate speech" was never a part of any threads here no matter how uncivilized they were :rolffleyes: , so I have a problem with explanation : ( 

Still - if we are not going to discuss bad breeding practices - this forum might as well be called "Poodle Facebook" and than we can say goodbye to public education and "bettering this breed"

JMO


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Taxi said:


> This forum has a very tight group of friends that are on this forum daily, that I think are pretty like mindedness. That is usually why friends get together and hang out. They stand up for each other. Here is my point. I cannot see a breeder or member getting a fare shack once this main group disagrees with them.
> 
> Image getting an e-mail stating that someone is saying negative things about you. You come onto the forum and you have to what?... prove these things are true or false. I think that would be very hard and intimidating, even with the best of intentions.


_This would end up being the last nail in their coffin as far as I am concerned. New people coming on the forum who do not even breed have had some bad reception simply over the suspicion that they do. This is not always a friendly place. Attack fist; ask questions later! Someone coming on just to defend their program would be slaughtered and it would just make a bigger public issue of what is already being said and serve no good purpose for them.

If you were actually doing your best in your breeding program and stepped into the fray to try to defend yourself, my guess is you wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in he**.
_


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I am concerned on the Hate Speech reference.

I would hope that there would not be any type of discriminatory comments made, in that case YES people should be very careful because this would get you in a BAD position. BUT this would have to apply to the civil rights acts NOT expressing your opinion.


----------



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Maybe spoospirit was thinking of "fighting words" instead of "hate speech"
Fighting words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _This would end up being the last nail in their coffin as far as I am concerned. New people coming on the forum who do not even breed have had some bad reception simply over the suspicion that they do. This is not always a friendly place. Attack fist; ask questions later! Someone coming on just to defend their program would be slaughtered and it would just make a bigger public issue of what is already being said and serve no good purpose for them.
> 
> If you were actually doing your best in your breeding program and stepped into the fray to try to defend yourself, my guess is you wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in he**.
> _


I tend to agree here at times.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Maybe spoospirit was thinking of "fighting words" instead of "hate speech"
Fighting words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Well, THAT was happening , and yes - that should be banned - no question about that !!!!! It actually is forbidden in many forums even as a PMs . !!!!!!


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> _Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication which disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.[1][2] In law, hate speech is any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group. The law may identify a protected individual or a protected group by race, gender, ethnicity, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, or other characteristic.[3] In some countries, a victim of hate speech may seek redress under civil law, criminal law, or both._
> 
> "Hate speech" was never a part of any threads here no matter how uncivilized they were :rolffleyes: , so I have a problem with explanation : (
> 
> ...


_I was advised to close threads that had hateful speech in it so I know they existed.

There is NOTHING wrong with discussing bad breeding or bad breeders. It is what happens after it starts to stray from the discussion to personal attacks on each other. That is where the problem is and is not acceptable. The public is not educated by one member calling another member names and making direct attacks on the person. And, then, that person slinging back personal attacks in defense of themselves and not their breeding practices._

_I have to give it to Arreau. She handled these type of attacks with diplomacy and stuck to facts. She did not let her detractors bring her down to a level that was not acceptable. She did it well. Not everyone does._


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

thestars said:


> Maybe spoospirit was thinking of "fighting words" instead of "hate speech"
> Fighting words - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


_
Thank you. That says it all._


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Agreed !!!!

But that is completely another topic :rolffleyes: - this thread started about "notifying" breeders that they are "discussed" about :rolffleyes:

Making an observation or giving the information is NOT the hate speech nor "fighting" speech :rolffleyes:


----------



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Unfortunately in many instances it goes badly. If a Breeder wishes to find this forum and join that is their choice. However, the representatives of the PF telling them they are being discussed shouldn't be what they do, it could have serious reprecussions. They, the moderators, should not be placed in this situation.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Agreed !!!!
> 
> But that is completely another topic :rolffleyes: - this thread started about "notifying" breeders that they are "discussed" about :rolffleyes:
> 
> Making an observation or giving the information is NOT the hate speech nor "fighting" speech :rolffleyes:


_You are correct. That does not constitute either of the above. 

In discussing whether or not this is something that the moderators should do, all aspects of the 'what if's' need to be looked at. The bad turns past discussions about breeders has taken (which is why this questions was asked) needs to be looked at to so as to have the whole picture before us._


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

thestars said:


> Unfortunately in many instances it goes badly. If a Breeder wishes to find this forum and join that is their choice. However, the representatives of the PF telling them they are being discussed shouldn't be what they do, it could have serious reprecussions. They, the moderators, should not be placed in this situation.


_I thank you for that, Thestars. I do intend to be reinstated when my internship is over and this is not something I would want to be required to do!_ _I__ would feel like I was running behind others back like a tattletale telling people they are being talked about. Then, I can hear the comments of those who disagree with this practice coming down on me for running to the breeder and telling on them. It just doesn't set well no matter how I look at it._
_
I understand Arreau's putting this question forward and I feel for her as I know what happened but I don't think this will solve any problems; but, actually create more._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I was advised to close threads that had hateful speech in it so I know they existed.
> 
> There is NOTHING wrong with discussing bad breeding or bad breeders. It is what happens after it starts to stray from the discussion to personal attacks on each other. That is where the problem is and is not acceptable. The public is not educated by one member calling another member names and making direct attacks on the person. And, then, that person slinging back personal attacks in defense of themselves and not their breeding practices._
> 
> _I have to give it to Arreau. She handled these type of attacks with diplomacy and stuck to facts. She did not let her detractors bring her down to a level that was not acceptable. She did it well. Not everyone does._


Thank you Spoospirit. That was kind of you. Maybe being on this forum will teach me how to fight or argue more effectively with my kids???

When I started this thread, I did say that I didn't know about the logistics of such an idea because I have never run a forum. I see now it would be next to imnpossible. I also see the point being made about how a newbie coming on to defend themselves would be received (or even someone who is already on here). It has not gone well in the past because the people I am thinking of got so defensive and pompous, they just made everyone angry at them, when it started off people just angry at their practices and lying. So, I guess there is no easy answer.

I must say this, and I know it is going to hurt or offend certain individuals so I apologize right off the bat. In reading that original thread about redstandscolorado, it makes my stomach flip because there were a lot of unkind, personal slams against her. We can judge someone's breeding practices, ethics, quality of dogs and testing, but I do not think it is necessary to comment on a person's level of intelligence. I struggle with my weight as does every female in my blood family. If you don't like my dogs or practices, that is one thing, but commenting on someone's intelligence must hurt as much or deeper to the person if they read it as it would hurt me if someone came on here and said "I think her dogs are ugly, and she is a fat pig". 

So, because there is no easy answer, I guess it is business as usual. But lets stick to facts, and for heaven's sake, unless their appearance or intelligence has a direct impact on the looks, well being or health of their dogs, could we try to not make these things personal in any way? That is just plain mean.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I wanna say that in my time here I can think of 2 perfect examples of what Cherie is talking about
the one breeder that we DETEST mentioning because of her constant throwing around of Cyber libel ((if you call wolf to many times how many crack pot lawyers come running? ))
and ((don't hate me Kpoos >.< )) Kpoos and her breeder ((Though for the life of me I can not remember her name >.< ))

the first case the breeder came here...stood in front of the "firing squad" and lost...because she had no proof to dissuade opinions, or peoples experience with her

the second breeder came on when she thought she was being attacked ((although some...including myself don't think it was a personal attack )) she defended herself amicably without being overly cruel and without coming out looking worse for wear

so in my opinion if the breeder isn't a bag of stupid they'd be able to prove or disprove whatever was being said about them
no matter how "close" we "regulars" are
((and on that note...I think there was a pretty close community when I started posting in October, but everyone was more than friendly to me and seemed super excited to see photos of my odd ball little girl...so maybe it isn't the community that isn't excepting ^_^))

BUT on another hand XD
what if the Whispering Pines lady came here? 
I know I for one...wouldn't have given her the benefit of the doubt I saw photos and thats all I needed in that area to make my judgment and hold onto it still


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Taxi said:


> I agree with Spoospirit's general overall thinking & it would be very hard to moderate.
> 
> This forum has a *very tight group of friends* that are on this forum daily, that I think are pretty like mindedness. That is usually why friends get together and hang out. They stand up for each other. Here is my point. I cannot see a breeder or member getting a fare shack once this main group disagrees with them.
> 
> Image getting an e-mail stating that someone is saying negative things about you. You come onto the forum and you have to what?... prove these things are true or false. I think that would be very hard and intimidating, even with the best of intentions.


I hear this term thrown around quite a bit...
would you care to clarify this some more?
All I see is people who care about the *ethical* breeding of poodles and who call people out when they think there is a problem...
Yes I agree it is taken too far sometimes.... but still


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> but commenting on someone's intelligence must hurt as much or deeper to the person if they read it as it would hurt me if someone came on here and said "I think her dogs are ugly, and she is a fat pig".


I agree
I think rude comments about the person such as weight, race, intelligence those shouldn't be made
...and I hope no one actually believes that I literally mean people are bags of stupid o.o
its a phrase I've used since I was a tiny tot about people who don't think things out XD

...oh and if anyone called you a fat pig on here Cherie they'd have to deal with the fat bull of the forum >:O:marchmellow: ((That goes for all you lovely ladies <3 ))


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jak said:


> I hear this term thrown around quite a bit...
> would you care to clarify this some more?
> All I see is people who care about the *ethical* breeding of poodles and who call people out when they think there is a problem...
> Yes I agree it is taken too far sometimes.... but still


In re-reading Taxi's post, I am taking a bit of offence to it. I too would appreciate more clarification on what you mean. Sorry Taxi. I personally have met two members of this forum (and will be meeting in person number three woo-hoo- at the end of the month). I have lots of acquaintances on here, but only a couple of "friends". Maybe the reason we come across as being "close friends" and "like minded" is because we all share similar goals for this breed, and when someone comes here professing one thing but practicing another we all react in a similar fashion.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I agree
> I think rude comments about the person such as weight, race, intelligence those shouldn't be made
> ...and I hope no one actually believes that I literally mean people are bags of stupid o.o
> its a phrase I've used since I was a tiny tot about people who don't think things out XD
> ...


Thank you Sweetie! We gals are very lucky to have you young fellows to watch out for us!!


----------



## brittwink21 (Jan 3, 2010)

I can't help, but think if I am on here to find out about using a breeder and I get positive or negative feedback, I am still going to research it myself. So while some might be swayed one way or the other, I would think that it is totally detramental to the breeder. Especially if they are what they are saying.

But I would think that if one of us is reading something that we feel has gone beyond certain limits and we want to contact a breeder to let them know, why not? this is an open board and they could come if they want.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

brittwink21 said:


> I can't help, but think if I am on here to find out about using a breeder and I get positive or negative feedback, I am still going to research it myself. So while some might be swayed one way or the other, I would think that it is totally detramental to the breeder. Especially if they are what they are saying.
> 
> But I would think that if one of us is reading something that we feel has gone beyond certain limits and we want to contact a breeder to let them know, why not? this is an open board and they could come if they want.



_I, personally, see no reason why a member of PF shouldn't contact a breeder if they are concerned about what is being said about them. If it were a breeder I __knew __and __trusted personally, I would probably do that myself. After that, it is up to the breeder to decide how to proceed. 

I just don't think that this should be in the moderators' job description to do this._


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I, personally, see no reason why a member of PF shouldn't contact a breeder if they are concerned about what is being said about them. If it were a breeder I __knew __and __trusted personally, I would probably do that myself. After that, it is up to the breeder to decide how to proceed.
> 
> I just don't think that this should be in the moderators' job description to do this._


Yup!!


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

So just for an example, it is OK to say negative things about a breeder if we personallyknow it as personal experience. I see that Beneful is a sponsor here. Is it OK for me to post about the negative things most of us know about that food as compared to some of the more holistic and natural brands? If we started listing all of the company associations and questionable ingredients, how far would that get since they are a sponsor? Let's see, it is owned by Purina and I could start a whole other stream of thought about what is in it and how awful it is for dogs. Would that be tolerated here, since it is fact and I have read about it? Or could a "questionable" breeder become a sponsor here and thereby prevent discussions about them at all? There is a point where a forum that takes on sponsorships takes on increased risks. This place isnt' a yahoo group with just some folks chatting anymore.


----------



## brittwink21 (Jan 3, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _I, personally, see no reason why a member of PF shouldn't contact a breeder if they are concerned about what is being said about them. If it were a breeder I __knew __and __trusted personally, I would probably do that myself. After that, it is up to the breeder to decide how to proceed.
> 
> I just don't think that this should be in the moderators' job description to do this._


I meant to say it would NOT be detramental to the breeder, (however you spell that). I agree that it shouldn't be in the moderators job description, but it would be appropriate for someone to let a breeder know.


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

jak said:


> I hear this term thrown around quite a bit...
> would you care to clarify this some more?
> All I see is people who care about the *ethical* breeding of poodles and who call people out when they think there is a problem...
> Yes I agree it is taken too far sometimes.... but still





ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> In re-reading Taxi's post, I am taking a bit of offence to it. I too would appreciate more clarification on what you mean. Sorry Taxi. I personally have met in person two members of this forum (and will be meeting in person nujmber three woo-hoo- at the end of the month). I have lots of acquaintances on here, but only a couple of "friends". Maybe the reason we come across as being "close friends" and "like minded" is because we all share similar goals for this breed, and when someone comes here professing one thing but practicing another we all react in a similar fashion.


Hi Jak & Arreau, let me answer you both by quoting Spoospirit who also quoted my post. http://www.poodleforum.com/90427-post28.html It also shows what "thestars" was talking about, how two people can be looking at the building of truth and see different things. http://www.poodleforum.com/90424-post26.html When I came on this forum in the very beginning I was told that this forum was like a family. Maybe I was incorrect to use the word friends and should have used the word "family". 



spoospirit said:


> _This would end up being the last nail in their coffin as far as I am concerned. New people coming on the forum who do not even breed have had some bad reception simply over the suspicion that they do. This is not always a friendly place. Attack fist; ask questions later! Someone coming on just to defend their program would be slaughtered and it would just make a bigger public issue of what is already being said and serve no good purpose for them.
> 
> If you were actually doing your best in your breeding program and stepped into the fray to try to defend yourself, my guess is you wouldn't stand a snow balls chance in he**.
> _


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Jillian said:


> So just for an example, it is OK to say negative things about a breeder if we personallyknow it as personal experience. I see that Beneful is a sponsor here. Is it OK for me to post about the negative things most of us know about that food as compared to some of the more holistic and natural brands? If we started listing all of the company associations and questionable ingredients, how far would that get since they are a sponsor? Let's see, it is owned by Purina and I could start a whole other stream of thought about what is in it and how awful it is for dogs. Would that be tolerated here, since it is fact and I have read about it? Or could a "questionable" breeder become a sponsor here and thereby prevent discussions about them at all? There is a point where a forum that takes on sponsorships takes on increased risks. This place isnt' a yahoo group with just some folks chatting anymore.


_Well, now, that is a complicated question but very valid. I guess I would like to hear what our administrator has to say about it. I don't even know where to begin with this one._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Hi Jak & Arreau, let me answer you both by quoting Spoospirit who also quoted my post. http://www.poodleforum.com/90427-post28.html It also shows what "thestars" was talking about, how two people can be looking at the building of truth and see different things. http://www.poodleforum.com/90424-post26.html When I came on this forum in the very beginning I was told that this forum was like a family. Maybe I was incorrect to use the word friends and should have use the word "family".


Thank you for clarifying. I guess we are like family, because at its core, family usually has similar standards and values. Most of us here are very similar in one thing- our standards and values for this breed, which bonds us together. When we see someone who is either completely unethical in their breeding practices or trying to mislead us into believing they are something other than what they truly are, then we are quite a bit like the squabbling family at Christmas time.


----------



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I think as has already been said, it would be near impossible to inform every breeder if they were mentioned on this forum, as often they are not only mentioned in the original thread but also in subsequent threads. It also seems to me that many if not most breeders who are mentioned on this forum eventually show up, so they must be hearing about it somehow or another! Let's remember there's a few lurkers out there for every active participant.

Just one other point - I too resent the implication that this forum consists of people with only one opinion who constantly agree with each other. I have seen enough debates about contentious issues (breeding, training, feeding) to know that's not true! The reality is we do have poodles in common, but we are all also individuals with our own opinions on the issues that are raised here. Does a longer standing member often get cut a break more than a newbie? Yes, they do. But that's not unusual. In real life I know I am more forgiving and accepting of people I know and think I understand than people I have just met. We were all newbies once. But if people stick around and show they are not just here to fan the flames or cause trouble, then I think they are usually given a fair chance.


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Taxi said:


> Hi Jak & Arreau, let me answer you both by quoting Spoospirit who also quoted my post. http://www.poodleforum.com/90427-post28.html It also shows what "thestars" was talking about, how two people can be looking at the building of truth and see different things. http://www.poodleforum.com/90424-post26.html When I came on this forum in the very beginning I was told that this forum was like a family. Maybe I was incorrect to use the word friends and should have use the word "family".


Well I guess what thestars is saying is true... some people look at this building and see different things...
As for some people getting inhospitable welcomes... well, what can you do... there are plenty of people that are getting lovely welcomes, that seems to be missed.. and I do believe, where there's smoke, there's fire.

Lol, I see people joining this 'family' all of the time... I just find it amusing how we're all meant to be in it for the love of the breed... I do not believe that you (figuratively speaking)just have this amazing right to just breed... I think it is completely reasonable for people to probe and ask questions about breeders, and if they are a good reputable breeder, then of course no issues there... but it is usually when trouble flares up... it's pretty obvious that this is a less than desirable breeder, and it is again, amusing, that people seem to want to defend them... hmmm...


----------



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

Since the subject of this thread was Forum Suggestion, I'd like to make a suggestion.

Our current Forum rules as stated when we register;
_Forum Rules
Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below. If you agree to the terms, please check the 'I agree' checkbox and press the 'Register' button below. If you would like to cancel the registration, click here to return to the forums index.

Although the administrators and moderators of Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! will attempt to keep all objectionable messages off this forum, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too!, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The owners of Poodle Forum - Standard Poodle, Toy Poodle, Miniature Poodle Forum ALL Poodle owners too! reserve the right to remove, edit, move or close any thread for any reason._

Another group I am a member of is the RAPL Yahoo Group, and the rules are;
_LIST RULES
By subscribing to the RAPL Official List you agree that the List owners and moderators will not be held personally or financially responsible for any list mail or it's content and you agree to abide by the RAPL Official List rules. Members: This list was created to serve as a constructive and friendly forum for ALL persons who have interest in red and apricot poodles. One does not need to own a poodle or own a particular color poodle to belong to the list. List Topics: Topics must remain poodle related. - Suggestions for special breed topics or critiques are encouraged. - No posts that serve as kennel advertisements will be allowed. Participation Rules: - FLAMING WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT BE TOLERATED! Please conduct yourself in a productive educational manner. - You may disagree, but you will do so without accusatory language and the discussion will remain civil. - Opinions, text and attachments, on this list, are strictly those of the original poster and do not necessarily represent the opinions of other list members, the list owners, moderators, or their representatives. **CROSSPOSTING OF MESSAGES FROM THIS LIST WILL RESULT IN YOUR IMMEDIATE REMOVAL** - No personal vendetta's or slander of kennel lines or dogs. No alluding to or pointing fingers at other members in a slanderous manner. Posts in the nature of "slamming" list members will NOT be tolerated and will result in removal from the list. No heckling, trolling or stirring of emotions for the sake of argument will be allowed on the list._

Should we review our PF Rules and Etiquette and come up with something of our own with more specifics such as the RAPL rules?


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thank you for clarifying. I guess we are like family, because at its core, family usually has similar standards and values. Most of us here are very similar in one thing- our standards and values for this breed, which bonds us together. When we see someone who is either completely unethical in their breeding practices or trying to mislead us into believing they are something other than what they truly are, then we are quite a bit like the squabbling family at Christmas time.


LOL, yes, yes, that was pretty much what I was told in the beginning... maybe that was you who told me.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Well, now, that is a complicated question but very valid. I guess I would like to hear what our administrator has to say about it. I don't even know where to begin with this one._


Well let's try. 

I breed and show my dogs. I care about their nutrition. I have looked at Purina products and based on the ingredients, I would not feed it to my dogs nor do I recommend that my puppy buyers feed it to their dogs. I think that products like Beneful (advertised on this site) use too many low quality carbohydrates such as corn and too many low grade proteins. Here is a list of the Beneful Puppy Food initial ingredients:

Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin e), chicken, rice flour, milk, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, animal digest (what the heck is that???)

I think there are better foods on the market that use higher quality proteins.


----------



## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

thestars said:


> Since the subject of this thread was Forum Suggestion, I'd like to make a suggestion.
> 
> Our current Forum rules as stated when we register;
> _Forum Rules
> ...


Well.. I don't want to see us not being allowed to discuss a breeder who we do not agree with... 

and as you said, everyone sees different sides of the building of truth...


ETA: Also what about all of these SUBTLE comments going on...?


----------



## brittwink21 (Jan 3, 2010)

I wouldn't want to lose that right. =( This is where we all come to get valued input and OPINIONS. I agree with CDNJennga that everyone here has different opinions and there are constantly debates on here. Everyone can fairly speak their minds.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Well let's try.
> 
> I breed and show my dogs. I care about their nutrition. I have looked at Purina products and based on the ingredients, I would not feed it to my dogs nor do I recommend that my puppy buyers feed it to their dogs. I think that products like Beneful (advertised on this site) use too many low quality carbohydrates such as corn and too many low grade proteins. Here is a list of the Beneful Puppy Food initial ingredients:
> 
> ...


lmao!!
XD
-watches Cbrand get permabanned- :smow:
lol jk <333
XDD

seriously though...I don't think anything should be a _"no no"_ to talk about here when it comes to our dogs


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Well let's try.
> 
> I breed and show my dogs. I care about their nutrition. I have looked at Purina products and based on the ingredients, I would not feed it to my dogs nor do I recommend that my puppy buyers feed it to their dogs. I think that products like Beneful (advertised on this site) use too many low quality carbohydrates such as corn and too many low grade proteins. Here is a list of the Beneful Puppy Food initial ingredients:
> 
> ...



_LOL....good for you!! 

Since I do not know of any rules regulating this and I am just taking a small break from being a moderator, I did not want to give an answer that was not in line with the administrator of PF. I really would like to know what our stand is on speaking negatively about our sponsors. 

I, personally, don't think we should be restricted from saying what Cbrand has said. It is a valid argument against using their food and shouldn't be censored. And, it was very well said._


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> lmao!!
> XD
> -watches Cbrand get permabanned- :smow:
> lol jk <333
> ...


Bring it on Baby! I'm not afraid of the Man.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well I tend to agree with whoever said if we cannot critique breeders practices, particularly if they are questionable, we may as well be called Poodle Facebook. This is a place to educate. If someone asks about a breeder, and members have had personal experience or have knowledge of things that should be brought to light for the person asking, we should share what we know. But only fact, and never personal. I do not think there is room on here for words like stupid, ignorant, idiotic, etc. We need to stick to the issues this forum is about. 

If we cannot share our knowledge and maybe spare people from dealing with an unscrupulous breeder, then really, what is the point of having a breeder section at all. My concern in starting this thread was for the poor unsuspecting breeder honestly endeavouring to do good by the breed, not having a clue they are being bashed. Since there is no easy answer for that, I am in support of individual members contacting these breeder themselves letting them know what is going on if the member feels this person is being unjustly judged or talked about. Then the breeder can do as they wish with this info...come on and refute or ignore it.

I do not think this forum would be as successful as it is if it is all fluff and no substance. Just my opinion.


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

OK... I know it is off topic but I had to go look up Animal Digest. Here is what I found:

According to AAFCO (The term AAFCO stands for the Association of American Feed Control Officials; they provide regulatory guidelines for the manufacturing of pet foods) standards, Animal Digest is
“Animal Digest – material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.”

and more...

Animal Digest: This is the dry by-product of rendered meat. During rendering, all usable animal parts (including fetal tissues and glandular wastes) are heated in vats and the liquid is separated from the dry meal. This meal is covered with charcoal and labeled "unfit for human consumption" before processing it into pet food. Digest can also include intestines, as well as the contents of those intestines, such as stool, bile, parasites and chemicals.

Wow... this is in Purina Puppy Food.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I agree with all who are saying that we should be able to discuss breeders good or bad on the forum. I have never thought otherwise. This forum is for educating and discussing breeders is necessary. I have learned a great deal by reading the threads about breaders and then going to their sites to see what people are talking about. Discussing breeders is not and should not be a reason for banning. I don't see this type of discussion ever being disallowed.

We only have a problem with it when it breaks down into a personal war that isn't educational to anyone. Then we get bombarded with requests to stop it as it isn't serving anyone anymore.
_


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

ew...
thats really icky cbrand

and I agree with Cherie, and spoospirits last posts
as long as the conversation about the breeder stays with the facts good or bad and doesn't lead into _"Well they were just mean to me"_ without a regard for the facts its good in my opinion

and I think for the most part, the majority of the posters here are respectful enough not to actually call someone stupid ((other than me of course... o.o ))


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> lmao!!
> XD
> 
> -watches Cbrand get permabanned- :smow:
> lol jk <333


:rofl: _Keith, you really are something! LOL Cbrand, NOT! Love that snow emoticon._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keith...big bag of stupid is actually quite funny!!!


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

thestars said:


> Should we review our PF Rules and Etiquette and come up with something of our own with more specifics such as the RAPL rules?


I'm not sure who you mean by "we", but the moderators and the administrator of this forum have been busy "behind the scenes" working on a set of rules for this forum.

To my knowlege they are very close to being posted by the administrator... so, it's been done - they just need to be posted... There won't be a lot of changes - just some clarification... We'll still be able to have mature, reasonable, truthful discussions - Same as always, no flaming, name calling, etc...

I'll send a message to Yung and see where we are with the unveiling of the rules.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I'm not sure who you mean by "we", but the moderators and the administrator of this forum have been busy "behind the scenes" working on a set of rules for this forum.
> 
> To my knowlege they are very close to being posted by the administrator... so, it's been done - they just need to be posted... There won't be a lot of changes - just some clarification... We'll still be able to have mature, reasonable, truthful discussions - Same as always, no flaming, name calling, etc...
> 
> I'll send a message to Yung and see where we are with the unveiling of the rules.


_This is great news!! _


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Well let's try.
> 
> I breed and show my dogs. I care about their nutrition. I have looked at Purina products and based on the ingredients, I would not feed it to my dogs nor do I recommend that my puppy buyers feed it to their dogs. I think that products like Beneful (advertised on this site) use too many low quality carbohydrates such as corn and too many low grade proteins. Here is a list of the Beneful Puppy Food initial ingredients:
> 
> ...


We babysat my brother-in-law's poodle mix for two weeks while they were on vacation in February... they feed Nevada Beneful (ingredient list showed sugar AND sodium added to the food they feed this girl!) and I refused to feed it to her while she stayed with me... I know it's always best to do a food change slowly, but as icky as these ingredients were, I felt it was better for her to just start eating the good food... Luckily, she didn't have any problem adjusting and I didn't have the moral dilemma of feeding her the grocery store dog food. Of course I explained to my in-laws about decent nutrition, but Beneful is inexpensive and, "look at all the pretty colors" :fish: so Nevada is still eating it at her own home.

I agree that since our dogs aren't able to read ingredient labels and choose what they'd like to eat, it's up to us to provide a good quality diet for them... I also choose not to feed Purina products... This is my right.


----------



## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

LoL, I can imagine getting an e-mail that said "hey so and so is talking about you!" 
I would probably go and read the thread and be on the defensive right away, even if nothing bad was being said. So even some valid point about say the lack of health testing info on my website may seem offensive to me who remember is already a little miffed that I have gotten this strange e-mail stating that I was being discussed.

I think it would be a huge waste of energy to try and notify these breeders. If you're going to get your panties in a wad over what a bunch of people, many of whom may not even be experienced or knowledgeable dog owners, say on an internet forum then wellllll maybe you don't have thick enough skin to be involved in the dog world. You been to a show lately, dog people can be vicious and that's just your friends LoL. I doubt a thread here would really seriously damage any breeder who was not already damaging themselves. 

As was already stated it is up to a puppy buyer to educate themselves and interview a potential breeder that they are perhaps willing to drop big bucks with for a puppy and know what they are getting. This forum is a useful educational tool on if nothing else HOW to select your breeder. I personally don't think it is 100% appropriate for a poster to come here and say hey what do you guys think of X breeder. The VERY first post in response that a message like that should be along the lines of "Well, What do YOU think, What do YOU see, What have YOU learned about them." Then discussion should arise on what the answers to those questions are. This certainly avoids any goobers like *breeder unnamed but you can guess if you like* from coming up and saying "Hey you're gonna be in trouble if you keep talking mean about me" because the findings of the buyer would be the topic and hopefully one of those discoveries would be made via direct contact with the breeder that are asking about. I feel like if you're interested in a breeder b/c you've run across their website or heard about them and have looked them over you should contact them before asking about them here. Ask any questions you have and THEN come and ask here if anyone knows them, or anyone has heard of them or their dogs, or what is thought about this, that or the other that they do or said. 

It would be nice if the posts that talk about specific breeders and/or their breeding programs could contain only fact and little to no emotion. Question and direct answer that you can back up kind of thing.
The moderators shouldn't have to baby sit these threads, I assume most, if not all, of us are adults or old enough to act like it 

Once a breeder DOES find a post about themselves and joins to defend themselves they should be allowed to do so BUT the posting should probably stop there unless there are valid questions that don't have to do with ethics. Everyone's idea of ethical is somewhat different. For example a lot of breeders believe that if a puppy is rejected then there is something wrong with it and they should let it go. I personally find that totally unacceptable and disgusting. Just an example. The point there is NO point in arguing with a breeder or anyone else for that matter over these breeding threads. You're extremely unlikely to change any minds so why bother other than ego and strong personal beliefs. Ehh, the heartburn isn't worth it. LoL. 

Just my very opinionated opinion. :rolffleyes:


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Breeders know how to google themselves, as Cbrand suggested. If those, who feel breeders should be alerted, want to take on that responsiblility, they are welcome to it. Nothing’s stopping you, but I don’t see why it needs to be a moderator or forum policy.

When has a forum ever been sued? Seriously? People like to use that to scare forum members and owners. I would love to hear of one example where a forum owner had to hire an attorney b/c someone filed a slander/libel lawsuit. One good thing about the forum being bought out by a large company is that they surely have a legal team good enough make anyone think twice about filing a frivolous lawsuit.

I don’t see the correlation between sponsors and breeders. The breeders aren’t paying money to the forum owners. However, I’ve started threads complaining about the banner ads. I see nothing wrong w/ it, if I disagree w/ the product being advertised. (In this case it was a forum promoting “designer dogs.”) Please feel free to slam Beneful all you want, all though you would be preaching to the choir. You’d be hard pressed to find a dog forum that didn’t have negative discussion of that and similar dog foods. 

I’ve said this before but limiting breeder discussion will only lead to an outright ban on it. I think we self police quite sufficiently. If someone comes here and slams a breeder in their 1st post, we know what will happen. People will check out the breeder if they don’t know anything about them, they will make judgment calls on the website. No one is going to start bashing when they know nothing about the mentioned breeder. Every time a breeder has come here to “defend” themselves they’ve only made themselves look worse. Like the breeder that joined to defend breeding her stud dog twice before having his hips evaluated. She “knew it wasn’t the proper thing to do.” This same breeder has prelims listed for every single one of her dogs on her site. No actual OFA scores, all prelims. They are welcome to come here but sometimes there is no defense.


The worst thing I read about the breeder who didn’t return the deposit was that “she wasn’t someone you want a dog from anyway.” I’ll leave the notorious red breed alone, I’m sick of hearing about her to be honest. As for the red breeder in CO, I don’t remember anyone saying she was unintelligent but rather she was unknowledgable about poodles and breeding in general. I didn’t find anything amicable about the way the breeder who sold the cream pup to Kpoos behaved. She too made up extra accounts and was banned for it. She also insulted Kpoos as a dog owner and mother. (And that’s just what happened publicly.)


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I didn’t find anything amicable about the way the breeder who sold the cream pup to Kpoos behaved. She too made up extra accounts and was banned for it. She also insulted Kpoos as a dog owner and mother. (And that’s just what happened publicly.)


o.o
I didn't know she was banned or that she had made other accounts...or that she was bashing kpoos as a mother...lol evidently I have no idea what I'm talking about
I apologize kpoos for saying what I said then =\


----------



## Taxi (Jan 18, 2010)

Google, "forum sued for libel"...

Even if you are not found guilty its expensive to defend. That is why anyone associated with the forum would be wise to stay out of contacting breeders. i.e. forum owner, moderators etc An individual could be sued but at least the forum would be less likely to be sued.


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> There won't be a lot of changes - just some clarification... We'll still be able to have mature, reasonable, truthful discussions - Same as always, no flaming, name calling, etc...
> 
> I'll send a message to Yung and see where we are with the unveiling of the rules.


Hope there is no "censorship" - or I am out of here :wacko: I lived 24 years under the Communist regime and have no intention to be under another one in any shape or form . If "anybody" or "anything" becomes "above the law" or beyond commenting - than this forum is loosing it's educational aspect and will be like any other "dog forum" out there :smow: - yiiipiiiii - puppies galore (*irony here )

PS: BTW, I do not think that anybody's extra weight or the lack of weight or any physical attribute would effect the quality of a given breeding and validity of decisions made LOL but the level of knowledge (or the lack of it) definitely would


----------



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm with wishpoo; if this place becomes yet another censored little 'feel good' place then I'm out of here too. A nice friendly place is great, and we do have that here, but the forums that censor everything hugely are tiring and _boring_ to be on, and there's more than enough stupid Politically Correct cowpats everywhere else in life that I LOVE this forum because it's still somewhere where we are allowed to talk openly about our thoughts and opinions!

YES I think that the mudslinging and personal bashing is good to monitor and keep to a minimum, but invariably it'll come up to some degree still, it just needs to be stopped when it gets down to mindless 'he said/she said'. I don't want the mudslinging to be stomped on so much that we can't come on here and talk about bad experiences or crappy people we come across... If we can't openly discuss our differing opinions about breeding/raising ethics and ideals then I can see this place dissolving back into the woodwork as 'just another cutesy dog forum' and not one of the best poodle networks around.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Hope there is no "censorship" - or I am out of here :wacko: I lived 24 years under the Communist regime and have no intention to be under another one in any shape or form . If "anybody" or "anything" becomes "above the law" or beyond commenting - than this forum is loosing it's educational aspect and will be like any other "dog forum" out there :smow: - yiiipiiiii - puppies galore (*irony here )
> 
> PS: BTW, I do not think that anybody's extra weight or the lack of weight or any physical attribute would effect the quality of a given breeding and validity of decisions made LOL but the level of knowledge (or the lack of it) definitely would


There is an enormous difference between lack of knowledge about the correct way to breed and being "stupid". I have no problem with the sentence "this breeder doesn't seem to have much knowledge on how to breed a healthy litter" as opposed to "this breeder does no testing therefore she is stupid". First sentence isn't personal, second one is.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Hope there is no "censorship" - or I am out of here :wacko: I lived 24 years under the Communist regime and have no intention to be under another one in any shape or form . If "anybody" or "anything" becomes "above the law" or beyond commenting - than this forum is loosing it's educational aspect and will be like any other "dog forum" out there :smow: - yiiipiiiii - puppies galore (*irony here )
> 
> PS: BTW, I do not think that anybody's extra weight or the lack of weight or any physical attribute would effect the quality of a given breeding and validity of decisions made LOL but the level of knowledge (or the lack of it) definitely would


I'm pretty sure the rules don't say anything about censorship (except maybe self-censorship in that we don't want people coming on here and trying to get a huge fight going so they can sit back and watch the destruction!) As I said in my first post about the forum rules being posted - nothing really CHANGES, as much as gets CLARIFIED about what isn't acceptable... I don't like censorship either, but I also would pray that every member of this forum would comport themselves with maturity and dignity and not stoop to anything actually needing censorship in the first place...

Before I became a moderator, there were a few threads that the administrator and mods at the time felt needed to be removed from general view - IMO that is a form of censorship, but the authorities felt it was prudent because of how far off topic (and personal) the thread had strayed... Since I've been reading threads with new "moderator" eyes, I haven't seen anything so objectionable that couldn't be pulled back onto track with a simple reminder...

We are all human... we are all individual... we all have our own life experiences that shapes who we are today... and we are all different... but that we love poodles...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I'm pretty sure the rules don't say anything about censorship (except maybe self-censorship in that we don't want people coming on here and trying to get a huge fight going so they can sit back and watch the destruction!) As I said in my first post about the forum rules being posted - nothing really CHANGES, as much as gets CLARIFIED about what isn't acceptable... I don't like censorship either, but I also would pray that every member of this forum would comport themselves with maturity and dignity and not stoop to anything actually needing censorship in the first place...
> 
> Before I became a moderator, there were a few threads that the administrator and mods at the time felt needed to be removed from general view - IMO that is a form of censorship, but the authorities felt it was prudent because of how far off topic (and personal) the thread had strayed... Since I've been reading threads with new "moderator" eyes, I haven't seen anything so objectionable that couldn't be pulled back onto track with a simple reminder...
> 
> We are all human... we are all individual... we all have our own life experiences that shapes who we are today... and we are all different... but that we love poodles...


Agree entirely!! Censorship is not good. I wish those threads had not been pulled, because all that means is we have to rehash and go over the same thing if/when the topic comes up again. And God bless the Poos, for giving everyone on here something in common!!!


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There is an enormous difference between lack of knowledge about the correct way to breed and being "stupid". I have no problem with the sentence "this breeder doesn't seem to have much knowledge on how to breed a healthy litter" as opposed to "this breeder does no testing therefore she is stupid". First sentence isn't personal, second one is.


I am still to see word "stupid" in any of the responses in that thread :rolffleyes:

With definition of "stupid" stands also " foolish; senseless" - I did not say it before but will now loud and clear - Is breeding of untested and incorrect dogs foolish and senseless thing - IMO, it absolutely is


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I did not SAY the word STUPID was in THAT thread. There were several references to this woman's stupidity without saying the word. WHAT I said was there is no room for words like that on this form. The breeding practices you refer to NOT being done would be irresponsible, not very rational, maybe even unethical, but I do not think they indicate the person has less than average intelligence. Maybe they are ignorant of how important it is, maybe they have issues which makes them unable to rationize how important it is, but it does not render them STUPID no matter how we word it. That is the same as calling a teenage girl who sleeps around a slut in my opinion. Is she REALLY a slut or are there issues in her life that makes her sleep around? And it doesn't matter if you call her a slut, a sleeze bag or a ho..it all amounts to the same thing, doesn't it??

People can be irresponsible in breeding for all sorts of reasons...ignorance, greed, sheer disregard for the health and safety of the pups they produce, but let's call it what it is and stop name calling and acting self righteous until we know what motivates them.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I did not SAY the word STUPID was in THAT thread. There were several references to this woman's stupidity without saying the word. WHAT I said was there is no room for words like that on this form. The breeding practices you refer to NOT being done would be irresponsible, not very rational, maybe even unethical, but I do not think they indicate the person has less than average intelligence. Maybe they are ignorant of how important it is, maybe they have issues which makes them unable to rationize how important it is, but it does not render them STUPID no matter how we word it. That is the same as calling a teenage girl who sleeps around a slut in my opinion. Is she REALLY a slut or are there issues in her life that makes her sleep around? And it doesn't matter if you call her a slut, a sleeze bag or a ho..it all amounts to the same thing, doesn't it??
> 
> People can be irresponsible in breeding for all sorts of reasons...ignorance, greed, sheer disregard for the health and safety of the pups they produce, but let's call it what it is and stop name calling and acting self righteous until we know what motivates them.



:congrats:


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

_That is the same as calling a teenage girl who sleeps around a slut_ - I do call them that particular name , maybe a "floozy", and I think they are stupid for not at least taking a monetary compensation for a service LMAO 

I am sorry , but again, if somebody IS intelligent , somebody would make rational, responsible, and educated decisions :rolffleyes:

Again - I think that for me there are no "gray areas" in life in general . I have very clear cut values and views. I am critical of myself the same way - oh boy how I wish I have more "gentle hand" about myself LOL

I have high standards for myself and people I associate with and that is all... 

Calling names is not nice !!!!!!!! I agree with that... but than again - why it was OK to call "one not to be mentioned" names ???? 

I seems like a double standard applied :rolffleyes:


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> _That is the same as calling a teenage girl who sleeps around a slut_ - I do call them that particular name , maybe a "floozy", and I think they are stupid for not at least taking a monetary compensation for a service LMAO
> 
> I am sorry , but again, if somebody IS intelligent , somebody would make rational, responsible, and educated decisions :rolffleyes:
> 
> ...



I am pretty certain I did not call anyone names, because I am fairly sure I would've gotten called out by ones of the mods if I had. I do not recall anybody actually resorting to name calling on any of the extremely heated threads, do you?? There was plenty of accusations being tossed around about misleading, lying, bad practices, etc., but I am pretty sure there was no name calling. If I am wrong, then I will apologize. But for now, maybe we should just decide not to name call, and be kiinder with our words about the person. Not their ethics, not their practices but rather they themselves!

Which unmentionable are we talking about? I would like to read those threads and see if it did indeed resort to name calling or if, as bad as things got, focus was on the actions of the person being talked about. You can PM me just the name if you wouldn't mind.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, just read through one heated thread, and there was no name calling by anyone. Definately anger and accusations but not one name thrown out there at anyone.


----------



## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I can't help but wonder if you have some sort of connection to this breeder in CO. You've never had any objection to discussing other breeders. In fact you eagerly joined in. Yet, suddenly you think breeders should be alerted when they are discussed here?


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> I can't help but wonder if you have some sort of connection to this breeder in CO. You've never had any objection to discussing other breeders. In fact you eagerly joined in. Yet, suddenly you think breeders should be alerted when they are discussed here?


Harley chik - most everyone on this forum know that Arreau and I have become good friends in the last year we've been in contact (but have never met each other - until later this month...) and she and I speak on the phone several times a week...

I can tell you honestly that she had not heard of this CO breeder (except in the "strange contract" thread which most everyone had forgotten about until the breeder resurrected it) until that individual contacted Arreau soon after the PCA show because she had heard about Arreau's dogs while there... Arreau doesn't know this breeder, has never done business with this breeder, is not connected to her in any way except for the one phone call initiated by Shawn and whatever correspondence that has happened here on this forum...

I think the entire purpose of this thread was to see if it would be possible or prudent to notify ANY breeder of discussion about their program (this thread doesn't have anything to do, specifically, with the CO breeder at all - it's just what preciptated the question...) I don't believe Arreau is in any way defending this person - she is as baffled by her program as the majority of this forum...

Hope that clears up your question HC - and Arreau, if I misspoke or wasn't clear, please correct me... From our conversations, I can truthfully say that there is no (nor will there be) a connection between Arreau and Shawn. Thanks!


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> There were several references to this woman's stupidity without saying the word.


So nobody even ever called her stupid :wacko: _ I am completely flabbergasted now hwell: 

I than have no idea of what this whole "hoopla" is all about :wacko: - nobody called anybody any bad name ever (as stated above ) . If "insinuations " count than *many* were made all the time in all threads LMAO regarding all possible matters - from grooming to showing to potty-training !

How can you tell somebody that he/she is wrong without actually telling it , no mater in what kind of pretty "package" it was served and decorated with a cherry on the top ?!!

If I tell somebody that he/she is completely uniformed - is it better to say to that person : " Oh sorry but I think that you might take some time and reconsider if you are really capable of breeding dogs without omitting some major mistakes, since, you see, you just do not know better and maybe you need some guidance and help and further education. " 

I am saying the same thing but in condescending and hypocritical way - and I am not either (*sigh...) AND - that person would not even understand what I am trying to say BTW LOL

Even Plum was taken aback by that poster - it is something "off" with that person and I do not care if she has reds, browns or purples - I do not agree with her breeding practices. I even got a PM from her/him - should I be "nasty" and post it here ???? NO !!!!!!!!! 

I NEVER intentionally did hurt anybody on this forum or called them any names - but if I see something wrong - I WILL NOT look the other way "just because that person does not know better" - they can TAKE A BOOK AND LEARN BETTER ! It is not like we live in god forsaken villages in the early 18th centuries and we just have no opportunity to get information about anything. Just plain silly. I will be honest and say that excuse like " they just do not know better" "oh, they are just ignorant (how is that not "name " BTW ???) can be used only for the children - not ANY person above 18 unless that person is handicapped in some way .

Oh p-l-e-a-s-e ...


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Wishpoo, I don't know what got a bee in your bonnet and I am sorry to see you so upset.

On ignorance, your description is incorrect. It does not apply to those only under the age of 18 and there are SOME people who are truly uninformed about what they are doing or saying. I will fully admit to having made statements in my adult life that were truly ignorant as I did not posses all of the information I should have had before speaking. I also changed my opinion when I was better educated about the subject. NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING....it is impossible to know everything. That is why most of us are here to learn and share information. 

We shouldn't paint every person with the same brush. I think it behooves all of us to let a breeder talk, for us to ask questions and research, and then, if we see that the breeder is truly a bad one, then tell them so. Often times, in just letting the breeder talk, they either prove themselves or hang themselves. 

_*Ignorance* is where someone or something is uninformed. This should not be confused with being unintelligent, as one's level of intelligence and level of education or general awareness are not the same. The word "Ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware. The term may be used specifically (e.g. "One can be an expert in math, and totally ignorant of history.") or generally (e.g. "an ignorant person.") -- although the second use is used less as a descriptive and more as an imprecise personal insult.

_I get the feeling that you are afraid that your rights will be taken away from you here and that is what is upsetting you so much. All rights come with rules and responsibility. I am sure it is not the intention of the administrator to take away the right to express disapproval of breeders in question; or anyone in question for that matter.

I think we should wait for the rules to be posted and then comment on how we feel about the changes then. They may not be anywhere near as bad as you are imagining._


----------



## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think perhaps that this all may be in reference to my comment when I said that she was clueless and a reference to sieve and water. 

Although unkind, in my defense, she was very much in person as she was here in print.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

WOW!!! My best breeder friend (the lady who bred the litter Nevar is buying her phantom puppy from) called me the other day, quite upset by what she read on the thread Redstands pulled up that had been dead since the beginning of February talking about a funky contract she had. She said, and it is true, that the kind of talk that was going on about the funky contract could happen to anyone. She asked me if I could bring it up and see if maybe we could begin contacting breeders who are being talked about. I reread the thread and I was offended too. I tried to put myself in Shawn's shoes, coming on here all excited because she had just gotten back from PCA and wanted to show a red Spoo because of the excitement the Nola dog caused at the show. Then she happens upon an old thread where she and her contract and practices are being discussed. I participated in that thread because I didn't like what I was hearing about how she operates, taking pups who miss a groom back from a family. Her contract is undeniably funky if what we saw on that thread was accurate. I do not take issue whatsoever that it was brought up and hashed over. I made it clear on that thread how I felt about her way of doing things.

The term "She is like trying to get a sieve to hold water" is unkind and not necessary. Kook, Nut, and maybe Crazy were thrown as well. She was not called STUPID, but what does this stuff mean if not stupid??

Shawn phoned me to talk about a show puppy when she returned, all excited, from the PCA show. We spoke briefly, but it was eleven pm here, so I asked her to call me the next night and she called the next day to say she was still at work and would call the next night and didn't. That is the extent of our contact. I did not start this thread with an agenda. I started this thread because it made me sick to my stomach to think she came on here excited about the show, probably walking on air, then pulls up a thread about HER, where people questioned her intelligence and were calling her names. I participated in the frigging contract thread. Obviously I didn't know her. But I also spoke of her contract and practices and did not call HER names or question her intelligence or state of mind.

I am so offended at the accusations just made against me on here I don't even know if I can write all of this and have it make sense. What exactly is going on here? A person gets raked over the coals for having a little humanity and just asking to give the breeders being discussed an opportunity to KNOW they are being discussed and all of a sudden I have an agenda or something going on with this person? Give me a break!! This turn has made me wonder if I even want to be here anymore. I think it is disgusting that someone cannot make a humane suggestion toward other breeders without being accused of something.

The times I have participated in raking other breeders over the coals, I have tried to refrain from being mean. I knew things about one of the breeders who got banned, for a year, never uttering a word on here because I figured THAT would be perceived as having an agenda. It was not until that thread made it clear they were going to be banned and had gotten completely out of control that I finally blurted out what I knew about their practices. After months of being picked on, ganged up on, every word I wrote ridiculed and picked apart, believe me, if I ever had an agenda, it would have been then. But I kept my knowledge to myself because I am not mean, and not once in any retort, even though I was being nit picked at did I ever question in the threads on here the person's intelligence or state of mental health.

BTW...I am not going to sell Shawn a dog. She was excited about the Nola girl, so my suggestion would be to wait until she has puppies to buy a show puppy. Best to go straight to the source of her excitement. So, do I have an agenda with this?? NO! How can what I am suggesting here possibly help Redstands now, or any relationship we might or might not have had? She has seen how I felt on the original thread about her. So nothing we would/could/do or don't to alert breeders to the fact they are being discussed is going to make a damned bit of difference to how she must have felt when she read that thread. The sole purpose of my suggestion was to possibly spare somebody else the same fate.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> I think perhaps that this all may be in reference to my comment when I said that she was clueless and a reference to sieve and water.
> 
> Although unkind, in my defense, she was very much in person as she was here in print.


No Cbrand you were not the reason I posted this. There were many references made in that thread about her intelligence and state of mental health, so it was a whole lot of stuff that I found mean, and that made my friend and I think there might be a way to alert people so they can al least come here and defend themself.


----------



## macker905 (Mar 21, 2010)

HOLY C--P Arreau
92 replies?? well you hit a nerve

Thank you for what was your "original intention", I am saddend that some have questioned you, that is disheartening.
I understood right from the beginning in reading your thread that your intentions came from the heart and no where else.
Although I am new here to this forum, please don't let the abrasivness of others get you down, (i know this is not an easy thing to do).
Your idea was admirable and no doubt made with the best of intentions

Thank you 
Macker905


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

macker905 said:


> HOLY C--P Arreau
> 92 replies?? well you hit a nerve
> 
> Thank you for what was your "original intention", I am saddend that some have questioned you, that is disheartening.
> ...


_I, too, know that Arreau had the best intentions when she posted the thread but I also cringed when I saw it. Unfortunately, anything regarding breeders has had a history for going in this direction in the past. I believe that any breeder thread questioning a breeder's practices is going to be contentious. 

That being said, I am glad that she posted it and I think there was a lot of good debate regarding the subject. I do feel that this has somewhat cleared the air as to where each individual stands regarding discussion on bad breeders. 

I also believe that breeder threads will always have a tendency to walk the line and occasionally step over it as it is a very sensitive subject in which each person has very strong opinions about it. 

Arreau is very strong and has withstood many difficult questions that she has very diplomatically handled over the months. Although I, too, am sorry that she got yet another kick in the pants from some, I do believe in allowing people to express their opinions as I am sure Arreau does too as long as it is not done in a way that would be construed as a 'personal' attack on her.

I think she and I would like to see these threads handled in a more adult fashion than sometimes happens but every individual is different and we cannot change that.

God bless you, Arreau, for hanging in there!_


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I, too, know that Arreau had the best intentions when she posted the thread but I also cringed when I saw it. Unfortunately, anything regarding breeders has had a history for going in this direction in the past. I believe that any breeder thread questioning a breeder's practices is going to be contentious.
> 
> That being said, I am glad that she posted it and I think there was a lot of good debate regarding the subject. I do feel that this has somewhat cleared the air as to where each individual stands regarding discussion on bad breeders.
> 
> ...



Thanks you guys for your understanding and support. I sure didn't mean for htings to get this hot. I am only thinking about trying to continue as always just take the personal, name calling aspect out of it. It hurt my heart to think of this very excited, happy woman coming on here thrilled about the PCA show, then reading about what people said about her on a personal level. Nothing other than thinking about HER feelings and maybe sparing someone else reading about themselves like she did.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I know you didn't 'mean' for things to get hot but that is the normal course for these threads. I have to agree with whoever mentioned earlier that if you are going to breed/show, you had better develop a strong back. It's the nature of the game. No two people here, or anywhere else, in my experience, have the exact same opinion when it comes to breeding and showing. There are always going to be those who don't like your practices and are going question them and have their say. It is hurtful but if you are going to remain in the breeding/showing arena, you have to learn to either take another look at your practices to be sure they are ethical, be willing to explain/defend them, or let it roll off like water on a ducks back. And, of course, there is always the option to ignore the forum and let you practices speak for themselves out in the world.

I'm sorry for your friends experience. It must have hurt her deeply. I know I would have felt terribly hurt by mean comments. In my world, there is a difference between negative comments and mean ones directed at me personally. But, then, if I felt that I was doing the right thing by my breeding/showing practices, I would not have let it stop me from coming here and posting about my successes._ _ Of course, not everyone is willing to step into a hornets nest. Some are downright allergic to it and I totally understand that!_


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I know you didn't 'mean' for things to get hot but that is the normal course for these threads. I have to agree with whoever mentioned earlier that if you are going to breed/show, you had better develop a strong back. It's the nature of the game. No two people here, or anywhere else, in my experience, have the exact same opinion when it comes to breeding and showing. There are always going to be those who don't like your practices and are going question them and have their say. It is hurtful but if you are going to remain in the breeding/showing arena, you have to learn to either take another look at your practices to be sure they are ethical, be willing to explain/defend them, or let it roll off like water on a ducks back. And, of course, there is always the option to ignore the forum and let you practices speak for themselves out in the world.
> 
> I'm sorry for your friends experience. It must have hurt her deeply. I know I would have felt terribly hurt by mean comments. In my world, there is a difference between negative comments and mean ones directed at me personally. But, then, if I felt that I was doing the right thing by my breeding/showing practices, I would not have let it stop me from coming here and posting about my successes._ _ Of course, not everyone is willing to step into a hornets nest. Some are downright allergic to it and I totally understand that!_


Sorry, I must have worded my last post wrong. Not my friend, but redstands who had to read the nastiness here. Again, if it had all been about her xcontract or practices I say go for it if its true. But personal slams at HER, makes me kinda sick. And that goes for everyone, not just her. The damage is done for her...no turning back.Just hoping someone else can be spared.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

thestars said:


> Unfortunately in many instances it goes badly. If a Breeder wishes to find this forum and join that is their choice. However, the representatives of the PF telling them they are being discussed shouldn't be what they do, it could have serious reprecussions. They, the moderators, should not be placed in this situation.


I agree with Jean ! 

Cherie there would be no way for us to sit on the computer all day emailing breeders letting them know "some one is talking about " I certainly wont do it. As plum said and spoospirit knows we spend a lot of time just reading through threads to make sure everything is ok... Such as spammers and nasty behavior by members. 




plumcrazy said:


> I'm not sure who you mean by "we", but the moderators and the administrator of this forum have been busy "behind the scenes" working on a set of rules for this forum.
> 
> To my knowlege they are very close to being posted by the administrator... so, it's been done - they just need to be posted... There won't be a lot of changes - just some clarification... We'll still be able to have mature, reasonable, truthful discussions - Same as always, no flaming, name calling, etc...
> 
> I'll send a message to Yung and see where we are with the unveiling of the rules.


Yes we have rules and me yung , and plum approved them last week so they should be up soon 




Harley_chik said:


> I don’t see the correlation between sponsors and breeders. The breeders aren’t paying money to the forum owners. However, I’ve started threads complaining about the banner ads. I see nothing wrong w/ it, if I disagree w/ the product being advertised. (In this case it was a forum promoting “designer dogs.”) Please feel free to slam Beneful all you want, all though you would be preaching to the choir. You’d be hard pressed to find a dog forum that didn’t have negative discussion of that and similar dog foods.


I am not sure if anyone else on here has been on other forums ? well I was on reefcentral for years. We had PAYNG sponsors on there and guess what ? there is a section for each paying sponsor and you can say whatever experiences you had with them..... There was no special treatment for paying sponsors if the did something wrong the would help the customer ... IMO this made all the business on their legit because they would help solve the problem. Now could we get breeders to do this hhahahah i wish.....


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Roxy...I realize now that it would be an impossible task for the moderators. So, if anyone is inclined to contact a breeder on their own to let them know there is a dicussion going on with regard to their breeding operation, I guess that will be up to them. It was just an idea I hoped might be feasible, BUT I did say in my first post that I don't know how to run a forum, so didn't know if it was possible. Apparently not.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Roxy...I realize now that it would be an impossible task for the moderators. So, if anyone is inclined to contact a breeder on their own to let them know there is a dicussion going on with regard to their breeding operation, I guess that will be up to them. It was just an idea I hoped might be feasible, BUT I did say in my first post that I don't know how to run a forum, so didn't know if it was possible. Apparently not.


Basically in order for us to do what you suggest they need to be registered in some kind of breeder directory data base. IMO that wont happen either since the breeders are not paying us ( the forum) for this service. So anyone can and has been able to already alert breeders if they liked them and feel they need to defend themselves ....


----------



## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

A very interesting thread. I enjoyed reading all perspectives. 

I would like to chime in because I feel I have just recently been subjected to the kind of negativity and bashing that was been mentioned on this thread. See 'Tooth Problem' .

First, I actually found out about this forum from a couple of different puppy buyers who had seen a thread on here, I believe the 'Ontario breeders' thread and had told me that they had read good things about myself and my Poodles. Out of curiosity, I came to this forum to read that thread and decided to join the group and get to know everyone. So I actually came here not because I was warned about some negative posts regarding me but rather the opposite! 

Now, after a few days of browsing this forum I happened to stumble upon the 'Tooth problem' thread that was started by one of my own recent puppy buyers. To say that I was disappointed and upset when I read some of the posts on that thread is an understatement. 

Now let me say that I am totally for freedom of speech. I think these types of forums can and do educate people in a positive way. Unfortunately they also can be a great play ground for nasty , spiteful and jealous people who just love to stir up trouble for their own personal enjoyment. I've often wondered what is going on in their lives that they find enjoyment out of the misery and hurt of others but thats a whole other topic that is best left alone. 

It has been said in this thread that as long as the comments and accusations can be proven, that it's ok to post them for everyone to read. I guess that's ok although I really don't feel that a public forum is the place for anyone to air their problems with others. I have always felt it best to talk things through and try to come to a mutually acceptable conclusion between the two parties that are having difficulties. However , that's just my own personal feelings and I would not expect everyone else to feel the same way. 

Anyhow, I digress. Back to the 'Tooth problem' thread. First, I have to remind everyone that the only people that truly know all the facts are myself and the puppy buyer. There seem to be a lot of others posting on that thread that are neither myself OR the puppy buyers and they all seem to think they know what happened and what kind of person/breeder that I am based on no knowledge of me what so ever. 

On that thread I find myself being accused of all sorts of things that are totally unfounded and lack any proof from the people making the accusations. Is this the type of posts that this forum allows and welcomes? What happened to the 'rule' that as long as there was proof, it was ok to basically bad mouth a breeder? 

I have been accused of the following:

Not mentioning the tooth to the puppy buyer at all
Not telling her how to care for the tooth
lying about the tooth
Being 'dishonest' and 'shady' 
That I am in 'desperate times' 
That I don't 'hesitate to put my interests for' 
That I 'don't love the dogs and puppies that I produce'
That I have 'no concern' about the future of the puppy
That I am 'unprofessional' and 'unfair' 
That I lack 'good character' 
That I see pet buyers as a 'dumping ground for surplus puppies'
That I 'withheld' information about this puppies tooth
That I have a 'shody business ownership' 
That my puppies all have bad bites and that this runs in my 'line' 
That this particular puppy has a bad bit
That I 'let money rule over better judgement' 
That my breeding program needs to be put 'back on track' 
That 'all my puppies are consistent in having tooth problems' 

Where is the proof that any of this is true? Not one ounce of proof, just ridiculous and cruel accusations from people who don't even know me and who are not in the least involved in this situation. So much for this forum being a great place to educate others on the BAD BREEDERS out there. Too bad there will be some that will listen to this incorrect information and take it as truth. This is where these types of threads about breeders can be very hurtful and slanderous. 

I only hope that most people who read these forums have a mind of their own and will do their own homework and not just reply on information that they read here. 

Funny how many of the people who accused me on the tooth thread and had the time to post negative comments, didn't have the time to welcome me on the new member thread or comment on my photos from PCA. Is it that they are only interested in making negative comments and stirring up trouble? 

I have been a co-founder/moderator on a couple of other boards over the years and on those boards we would have never aloud these types of slanderous posts . When people post these types of comments, others are only getting one side of the story and often that side is very warped and not at all similar to the truth. This type of one sided bashing with a lack of proof to substantiate claims is not educational in the least and can do a lot of harm to innocent people. 

JMHO and now I will get off my soap box and do something more worthwhile with my time like hugging and playing with the dogs and puppies that I apparantly care so little for!


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ...I have spoken out against them and their ethics and practices. She could do the same thing in a thread about me, and that is fine, and would actually be better because I could then address the matter in public and maybe finally hear the end of it...
> 
> to me, letting breeders KNOW their name is being thrown around gives them a chance, just like I have been given a chance, to address the issues being brought up.
> 
> ...


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Tango I apologize for some of the comments in the tooth thread. I read through them and IMO most where expressing their opinion. No one said tango poodles is this or that. Some where saying things in general about breeders ( not just tango poodles ). This was my take from all the comments. 

OP came on forum asking for help and opinions and that is what they gave the OP good or bad.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

BlueSpoo said:


> ArreauStandardPoodle said:
> 
> 
> > to me, letting breeders KNOW their name is being thrown around gives them a chance, just like I have been given a chance, to address the issues being brought up.
> ...


----------



## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

It's very clear in many of those posts that they were talking directly to me or about me and most were making accusations rather than stating opinions. Those that stated their opinion based their opinions on inaccurate information. Plain and simple.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't see why its called bashing to call someone out on a fault in their lines... 
no one said _"MAN she has some fugly ass dogs" "HOT DAMN look at that over bite"_ I personally have never seen any thing like that said on this forum and I'd be shocked to actually see it 
((if it happened when I wasn't checking the forum regularly please point me in the direction so I can read the posts))
people are aloud to voice their opinions whether they be good or bad for someones business or reputation


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

TangoPoodles said:


> It's very clear in many of those posts that they were talking directly to me or about me and most were making accusations rather than stating opinions. Those that stated their opinion based their opinions on inaccurate information. Plain and simple.


Again I don't know what info is or is not correct when OP is posting ....... I can't control everyone on the forum .... 

I am pretty sure the people who posted their opinions re read your reply and think differently about the situation.


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Keithsomething said:


> I don't see why its called bashing to call someone out on a fault in their lines...
> no one said _"MAN she has some fugly ass dogs" "HOT DAMN look at that over bite"_ I personally have never seen any thing like that said on this forum and I'd be shocked to actually see it
> ((if it happened when I wasn't checking the forum regularly please point me in the direction so I can read the posts))
> people are aloud to voice their opinions whether they be good or bad for someones business or reputation


whatever you want to call it lol 

Yes people are allowed to voice their opinions. I just think its funny when someone voices their opinion on a breeder when they themselves is doing the same thing:wacko: I don't like double standards :fish:

I thought we got passed this type of drama when a few members where banned :rolffleyes:


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

*I don't know about this place*

Perhaps not enough people have been banned or perhaps the wrong people have been banned....the moderation here on this forum is very suspect. I especially feel that on the "wiggies needed" that the post *by a moderator*of the picture with popcorn and drinking soda was very innapropriate. The moderator is sitting back waiting for the show?! It really indicates that the moderators (or at least one of them) here, while not actively participating in the bashing, are condoning it and perhaps even egging it on?! And while we are at it let me mention another thing...I think it is on the hairspray thread. Someone is making fun of the handler in the pictures bangs. Have we sunk so low that we have to take shots like that at people? I hope that handler is not on here. You don't know who might me lurking, what they may really be like and how much you may hurt them personally and professionally. This isn't just high school locker gossip, the things posted on here can affect the lives and careers of professional people who have more experience than most people on here can even dream of having in ways that are very significant.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

LMAO
If someones career in breeding/handling/grooming is affected THAT much by what is said on this forum where the majority of posters are PET OWNERS they evidently weren't that good at what they chose to do with their lives ^_^

and I don't think you shouldn't ***** foot around who the moderator is you're trying to call out on her job just say it because I think we'd ALL stand up for our mods here...

I personally am super offended but your insinuation that our mods and admin aren't doing there jobs correctly 

this thread RIGHT HERE has absolutely NOTHING to do with the wiggies thread at all no one was calling her a bad breeder in that thread

:ban:


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I am not picking on nobody, I have no ties and I speak my mind or just stay out of things most times. I don't defend people I 'like" when they are wrong or maybe out of line. I just say what I think.

But Jillian is not the only person that spoke off topic in this thread or "forum" so disagree with what is correct, just being FAIR here....... I have been on this forum for while now and I like it. BUT stuff gets out of hand and then people defend the LIKE crowd or most vocal "click" Come on we are ALL adults here. 

I think this thread is well out of control, off topic and just useless anymore. Maybe just close it. If others chose to create a new thread on some underlining issues - have at it. It's your right to do so. But this one is a waste.


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

Keith. I am not sure how I offended you, but I apologize. However I have to ask, are you essentially saying that opinions are welcome and "just opinions" as long as they agree with the ruling majority here? I really don't see anything I posted as being ban worthy, It was just my "opinion" and free speech.... but if it is, I think it only proves the point and explains why (as you pointed out) there are mostly pet owners on here. Maybe we run off everyone else but a small few because we so aggressively attack them instead of learning from them? I admit I questioned the wiggies lady about the neccesity of dying, but I was asking from an educational standpoint (which could be misinterpreted). But my inquiry was very low key compared to what ensued after, which begs the question I asked earlier, why have forum sections on showing and breeding at all if this is how they are going to be treated? The thing with Tango was just shameful, as was the treatment of the Wiggies poster and countless otherhs I probably have no idea about. I have never been on a forum before where moderators were active participants on the forum for the specific reason that if it is perceived that they take "a side"...any "side" that is contrary to that position gets squashed (or banned). So if I get banned for posting my "opinion", it should be obvious to everyone what the unwritten rules are.


----------



## TangoPoodles (May 9, 2010)

I think this thread has been very enlightening in it's own way. It's content and comments along with the nasty and totally unfounded comments directed at me on the tooth problem thread along with some other breeder bashing on other threads has shown me that this is not a forum that I want to be associated with. So I will ask now that my membership be cancelled (looked around to see if I could do it myself but can't seem to locate a 'cancel membership' button in my control panel). The bashing , accusations, name calling and arguing, all done under the pretense of 'educating' people is totally unacceptable to me and won't be a part of it.


----------



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

you won't be banned for posting your opinion 
its just my sort of humor, 
I don't think you should be banned XDD
I was poking a bit of fun at you for saying some are banned others aren't sorry about that =\
((that sounds a bit redundant but I really am sorry =\ ))

I was offended because our mods do a great job at keeping the peace...

and tango...I don't see where anyone was calling names that was my point I was trying to make in the months that I've been a member ((and the months I was lurking prior to becoming a member)) I've never seen anything super duper volatile ((except for a few isolated incidents))


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

TangoPoodles said:


> I think this thread has been very enlightening in it's own way. It's content and comments along with the nasty and totally unfounded comments directed at me on the tooth problem thread along with some other breeder bashing on other threads has shown me that this is not a forum that I want to be associated with. So I will ask now that my membership be cancelled (looked around to see if I could do it myself but can't seem to locate a 'cancel membership' button in my control panel). The bashing , accusations, name calling and arguing, all done under the pretense of 'educating' people is totally unacceptable to me and won't be a part of it.


What a shame.......I am sorry, I did not partake in this thread until much later and have only heard good things about you and your breeding. I never felt the OP ever meant any harm. Opinions are like as*holes everyone has one, and not everyone will always agree, but it is refreshing to have difference of opinions when it comes to breeders, groomers, trainers. 

I dont think you can cancel per say.....they just change your name if you wish and you will get a number like others have that requested to leave. Maybe you will change your mind.

EDIT - things are getting confusing.....I did partake in this thread nothing negative but the tooth one I did not - things are overlapping here....... ^^ all of the above I still agree too


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

Tango, I am sorry.  It was a very informative thread, if all the people who said things in the heat of an out of control thread edited out anything they have changed their opinions about (or said things they wouldn't say to someone's face), maybe the content useful to spoo owners could remain without the hurtful accusations? 

(I'm not a big fan of editing after the fact, but the fact that this site comes up so high on Google searches &... well, this thread is not the first thing *I'd* want up coming up about my kennel. Even if Tango conducted herself with decorum & has nothing to be embarassed about.)


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Jillian said:


> Perhaps not enough people have been banned or perhaps the wrong people have been banned....the moderation here on this forum is very suspect. I especially feel that on the "wiggies needed" that the post *by a moderator*of the picture with popcorn and drinking soda was very innapropriate. The moderator is sitting back waiting for the show?! It really indicates that the moderators (or at least one of them) here, while not actively participating in the bashing, are condoning it and perhaps even egging it on?! And while we are at it let me mention another thing...I think it is on the hairspray thread. Someone is making fun of the handler in the pictures bangs. Have we sunk so low that we have to take shots like that at people? I hope that handler is not on here. You don't know who might me lurking, what they may really be like and how much you may hurt them personally and professionally. This isn't just high school locker gossip, the things posted on here can affect the lives and careers of professional people who have more experience than most people on here can even dream of having in ways that are very significant.



_We all know that *I* am the person to whom you refer. To clear the facts, I am not a moderator and have not been for a while now as I have too much on my plate at this time to be reading every thread and every post every day.

I've made another post in that thread telling the op that my intention was to try to lighten the atmosphere as I knew it would become a bit testy. I was trying to be amusing and obviously failed at that. I did apologize for any offense that was taken and there is no reason for me to apologize yet again. Perhaps you missed that!

I in no way condone bashing. I have worked very hard to prevent that while being a moderator. More hours than you would ever guess. You should try moderating sometime if you think that you are qualified for the job and have hours to sit at your computer reading every thread and post for things that need attention._


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

BlueSpoo said:


> Tango, I am sorry.  It was a very informative thread, if all the people who said things in the heat of an out of control thread edited out anything they have changed their opinions about (or said things they wouldn't say to someone's face), maybe the content useful to spoo owners could remain without the hurtful accusations?
> 
> (I'm not a big fan of editing after the fact, but the fact that this site comes up so high on Google searches &... well, this thread is not the first thing *I'd* want up coming up about my kennel. Even if Tango conducted herself with decorum & has nothing to be embarassed about.)


_I agree with you Blue. There was a lot of educational information shared here.

The fact is that moderators are *NOT* allowed to delete any threads or posts. Only the administrator can do that and only under extreme circumstances.

I also agree that this is not the first place I would want my business to come up on. Things do get pretty nasty here on occasion and make the owner look really bad. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are not. I belong to two other poodle forums and never see the type of bashing on them that I see here._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> BlueSpoo said:
> 
> 
> > Not to pick on you Cherie but I am still shocked from you creating this thread when you do join in bashing other breeders. I could see if you never joined in these type of threads but you have so I find this suggestion thread odd ?
> ...


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_And another thread bites the dust! I am seriously begining to question whether civility is actually possible on this forum.
_


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

I know mods can't edit, but we can edit our own posts. I was just thinking how it might help mend things for Tango, who has inadvertantly been done a disservice here (it certainly wasn't the OP's intention!) if by a bit of self-editing, we could remove anything remotely defamatory off that thread before it's cached & archived. 

I just worry about people skimming & not reading to the satisfactory conclusion- it _does _ matter, a person's reputation, & if the thread consistantly comes up #2 on Google for Tango Poodles (for years!), it *could* hurt her. 

It's just something I wanted to throw out there- it wouldn't be perfect, but it might help.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

BlueSpoo said:


> I know mods can't edit, but we can edit our own posts. I was just thinking how it might help mend things for Tango, who has inadvertantly been done a disservice here (it certainly wasn't the OP's intention!) if by a bit of self-editing, we could remove anything remotely defamatory off that thread before it's cached & archived.
> 
> I just worry about people skimming & not reading to the satisfactory conclusion- it _does _ matter, a person's reputation, & if the thread consistantly comes up #2 on Google for Tango Poodles (for years!), it *could* hurt her.
> 
> It's just something I wanted to throw out there- it wouldn't be perfect, but it might help.


_It is a nice suggestion but I don't see everyone doing this. Some would but others won't. It is moot in any case as Tango is leaving the insanity here. I don't blame her. I have been having similar thoughts myself. It is nearly impossible to get educational and sensible debate on any subjects but the fluffy ones without it degrading down to crap.
_


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

BlueSpoo said:


> I know mods can't edit, but we can edit our own posts. I was just thinking how it might help mend things for Tango, who has inadvertantly been done a disservice here (it certainly wasn't the OP's intention!) if by a bit of self-editing, we could remove anything remotely defamatory off that thread before it's cached & archived.
> 
> I just worry about people skimming & not reading to the satisfactory conclusion- it _does _ matter, a person's reputation, & if the thread consistantly comes up #2 on Google for Tango Poodles (for years!), it *could* hurt her.
> 
> It's just something I wanted to throw out there- it wouldn't be perfect, but it might help.


_

Actually, I don't see how Tango was done a disservice here 'inadvertently' since she was named outright nearly right off in the tooth thread. Some of the comments made against her were deliberate; not by accident. There were some very direct insults made toward her and her business and they were not based on fact but on the individual's supposition.

__I understand that you are trying to offer a sign of peace and commend you for it. I just don't see that this type of stuff is ever going to stop here.
_


----------



## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

I agree! 

On the issue of the intended topic of this thread, although I do not think it feasible in any possible way for moderators to contact a breeder if they are being discussed here, and I don't think it should even be their job, if someone who is reading a thread and feels the breeder should be notified, I think it is a good idea. At least the breeder would have a chance to put in their side of the facts/issue. We are able to weed out if someone is mad at or misinformed about a particular breeder or if the breeder is indeed not a good breeder. 

My issue with the thread on the "tooth problem" is that there were people jumping on with their accusations without even knowing the breeder, saying things that were not even known. How hard is it to ask questions and see about looking at both sides first before the bashing hits? I always say, look at both sides before you judge and try to put yourself in the other person's shoes.

I am sad that Tango had this happen to her so she decided to leave. From what she has responded to and from what I have seen about her, she did not deserve a flame thrower.

Folks, there is NO perfect out there, but lots of people trying their best to do their best. I am not saying there are not poor breeders, that there are not puppy mills (gag), but perfect you will never find. And, if you want that and think that anything short of it needs to be bashed, then it will only result in loss. And please, try to look at both sides before speaking if you have no idea about the issue(s) that transpired!! Obviously, situations like the Whispering Pines one, now that was out there, pictures, story and all, no mistaking what happened there...but if you don't know the situation, try to give advice/help/ask questions, before throwing the stones!

SIGH!


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> Actually, I don't see how Tango was done a disscervice here 'inadvertently' since she was named outright nearly right off in the tooth thread. Some of the comments made against her were deliberate; not by accident. There were some very direct insults made toward her and her business and they were not based on fact but on the individual's supposition.


I know, sigh, besides being politic, I was really addressing the OP (who didn't mean to open that can of Ol' Roy, I'm positive!)

I love it here, and I hope the drama can chill. Personally, I sometimes take extended keyboard breaks when I find myself getting worked up; I have not suffered from missing any new internet memes or glurge-y spam emails from my stepmom in the interims.

There's a pony in here somewhere! (Dig, dig, dig...)


----------



## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

the other problem with editing the posts in that thread bluespoo, is that you can only edit for 100 minutes after you make the post I think. I dunno what the time limit is, but there IS a time limit on editing your own posts, that would make being able to edit them redundant now anyway.


Sheesh has this thread collapsed or what! The only reason i'm still on this forum is because of the interesting opinions and voices on here. We can all become nice and fluffy and happy, and I'll drop off like many others. Grow up and live in the real world guys, be respectful and love our poodles.


----------



## BlueSpoo (Mar 29, 2010)

Aha! A time limit on edits in this forum, I was unaware. 'Tis moot.

Well, anyone with any sense wanting a poodle can read the thread, listen to her posts, go to her website, & reason out that she is reputable, & her puppy buyer happy. 

Anybody too dumb to figure it out doesn't need a dog smarter than they are , and are hence not good candidates as poodle puppy buyers, anyway.


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

flyingduster said:


> the other problem with editing the posts in that thread bluespoo, is that you can only edit for 100 minutes after you make the post I think. I dunno what the time limit is, but there IS a time limit on editing your own posts, that would make being able to edit them redundant now anyway.
> 
> 
> Sheesh has this thread collapsed or what! The only reason i'm still on this forum is because of the interesting opinions and voices on here. We can all become nice and fluffy and happy, and I'll drop off like many others. Grow up and live in the real world guys, be respectful and love our poodles.


_Sorry flyinduster. I felt a need to vent. I wasn't suggesting that the forum become all fluff and and happiness. It would loose its appeal quickly if it did. I just feel that your last sentence really puts it into perspective...be *RESPECTFUL* and love our poodles._


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

BlueSpoo said:


> Aha! A time limit on edits in this forum, I was unaware. 'Tis moot.
> 
> Well, anyone with any sense wanting a poodle can read the thread, listen to her posts, go to her website, & reason out that she is reputable, & her puppy buyer happy.
> 
> Anybody too dumb to figure it out doesn't need a dog smarter than they are , and are hence not good candidates as poodle puppy buyers, anyway.



_Now there's a bit of levity for you! :smile:

And, you are right. The ownness is on the puppy buyer to go beyond the forum comments and check out breeders themselves. I just hate reading through threads that break down to the point that they do not serve anyone anymore._


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Sorry flyinduster. I felt a need to vent. I wasn't suggesting that the forum become all fluff and and happiness. It would loose its appeal quickly if it did. I just feel that your last sentence really puts it into perspective...be *RESPECTFUL* and love our poodles._


Is there such as thing here, REALLY?? I made a suggestion when I originally posted this thread, so what has just happened here would not happen. Lisa Goodwin of Tango is likely one of the most respected breeders of Standard Poodles in Canada, if not North America. She has finished countless dogs in the conformation ring. Isn't that what is all iimportant to most everyone here?? Show your dogs, prove your dogs, finish your dogs. So, one of her puppies has a tooth problem and suddenly she is money hungry, a lousy breeder, should've told the buyer about the tooth...when? Her dogs should speak for themselves. She has done EVERYTHING you people harp about. She tests, she does not breed a ridiculous number of litters a year, she shows her dogs, she finishes her dogs. I really do not know what anyone can do to be accepted and respected by a lot of the members of this forum. Then someone tries to come up with an idea or solution so breeders can be notified when they are being discussed so they have an opportunity to say their piece and defend themselves and it turns into twelve pages of ugliness and accusations and insinuations? This is absolute CRAP!! And this is why I posted it. So people like Lisa Goodwin would not come on here by chance and read crap about themselves that is not true. I am so with Spoospirit and am this frigging close to leaving this forum.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Wow! This thread really HAS derailed hasn't it (and I think there are a couple more I have to go check out, too!)

Sorry, Jillian - that you think the moderation on this forum is "suspect"... There are only two of us and we are real, live people with real live families and commitments. We do the best we can and hope that the adults on this forum can play nice when we're not around to referee (which is what happened for me today as I was with my family rather than on the computer all day)

This is what I know... This thread was started with a query on whether or not it would be possible to notify breeders if their names/kennels came up in a thread.

It was decided that it is not feasible for the forum administrators or moderators to be responsible for that, but if individual forum members wished to do it; that is their right.

Pretty much anything else that was brought up or discussed was off topic and degraded this thread to the point members have asked for it to be closed.

If there is anyone who has a comment to make on the original intent of this thread, that has not already been made; feel free. In the meantime, I will notify the administrator of this thread and see if he feels it should be closed.

p.s. Thanks, FD for your voice of reason!! I want to add this to my signature/avatar/profile!  "Grow up and live in the real world guys, be respectful and love our poodles."

Thanks and have a good night.

Barb


----------



## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

My goodness ... this thread is still going on :wacko:

I just briefly went through it - just want to say that I stay firmly behind all statements made in this thread or any other  and I do not "flip-flop" with my opinions depending of "who is on the forum" *ehem 

What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong - at least in my book it is :deal: I refuse to "pretend" and I certainly have a right to have any opinion I wish to have. 

*IMO - mods are doing fantastic job - always did !!! * (did I say it is just my opinion - just in case ...if anybody missed that LOL)


----------



## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

spoospirit said:


> _
> I in no way condone bashing. I have worked very hard to prevent that while being a moderator. More hours than you would ever guess. You should try moderating sometime if you think that you are qualified for the job and have hours to sit at your computer reading every thread and post for things that need attention._


IA

Jillian:
Yes there are only 2 mods on here me and plum ..... Do you want to try being a mod since you think there is some suspicious activity?

I am just sick of someone talking about a breeder then that breeder magically registers then Hell breaks loose ! 

I ask everyone to please stop being nasty if you do NOT know the WHOLE story ! 

I probably wont be a mod soon either , I just can't take trying to be nice and friendly all the time when some things needs to be aired out ! i feel like i have to keep my mouth shut since I am a mod hwell:


----------



## Jillian (Jan 26, 2010)

I want to apologize for offending the moderators and spoospirit. For one, I assumed a moderator was participating in the madness and it turns out such person is no longer a moderator and thus, while maybe not entirely appropriate, was not setting a poor example as a leader. Sorry about that. For two, it now becomes clear to me that the moderators are also in a no win situation here. It is not their fault that the board is set up this way. I assumed the moderators were here to keep things clean and fair. But withoug editing or deleting abilities, you are given the responsibility but without the enforcement power. All you can do is say "now now children, play nice" if you happen to come across a flaming post...and that is IF you do. And by the time you COULD do something, all Hell has broken loose. The forums I have seen where things to not turn into free for alls are those that have enough moderation and power to STOP posts like poor Tangos debaucle BEFORE they even go on line. Meaning review prior to posting, then edit ability afterword. Yes, it is like no free speech. But see where free speech has gotten this forum? I have been told there is no "anti breeder" sentiment on here. But that is not what comes through on the posts. It is alive and well and Arreeau couldn't have said it any better.

The people posting on this thread are the preacher speaking to the choir. I haven't seen any of those who ganged up on Tango saying anything about their part, and they won't. They will just wait until the next poor fool posts something that they don't believe in and can jump all over, and once again this board will be spiraling into the gutter. The administration and moderation needs to change. You think that there can't be liable lawsuits because this is all "opinion"? Well, I think you better change your mind. Most likely Tango could go after a few people and this board if she chose to. No one would enjoy that and the rules would change real fast around here.


----------



## Administrator (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi everyone,

Sorry I'm late to the party. Lots of things to read in this thread but let me address one particular issue that was brought up. 

The Moderators of this community have volunteered their time to help keep things in order and while they have a number of things to look out for, one thing that is not a part of their "job description" is to sit around and move, edit, delete or close every regretful thread/post that members make. Don't get me wrong -- all of us have the ability to do this from a technical standpoint but to put it in layman's term, it is NOT our responsibility to clean up after your mess. 

I think we've talked about this before but if I didn't, let me say it again. The internet is NO different than other forms of communication in terms of expressing your thoughts and opinions. Ask yourself this: If you and I had a face to face conversation about my cooking and you told me how horrible it was (whether you said it intentionally or not), can you just "take back" what you said? Obviously not. In that regards, each of us should hold ourselves to the same standards on the internet as we do in face to face communications. That is, think before you speak or write. If you happen to post it and you have remorse about it 2 hours later, we're not here to help you remove your comments. Take ownership of it and make amends if you have to. It has worked wonders for me.


----------



## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

poodleadm said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Sorry I'm late to the party. Lots of things to read in this thread but let me address one particular issue that was brought up.
> 
> ...


:good: :good: :good: :congrats:
WELL SAID!


----------



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_First, I want to say thank you to Jillian for the apology. You obviously had no idea what our restrictions were.

To the poodleadmin, That is the best thing I have heard on this forum in a while. THANK YOU FOR MAKING IT CLEAR AS TO WHY WE OPERATE THE WAY WE DO! :hug: :thumb:_


----------



## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm a Jill-come-lately, and this is an ancient thread, but I have to say this, as a prospective poodle buyer and rather green poodle enthusiast: if it weren't for all the nit picking of every single sub-par breeder's website, I would have made some truly awful mistakes. I researched the heck out of every breeder who seemed to have what I was looking for, and 99% of my searches for reviews on this breeder or that brought me right here, in some cases confirming suspicions, in other cases, surprising me with knowledge that seemed so obvious once someone else pointed it out.

I hope this forum NEVER stops reviewing breeder/kennel websites, because in this age of internet shopping, THIS is definitely what conscientious newbies need: a safe haven to come to for opinions before making an enormous (and costly) commitment. Of course some posters have their own agendas, and yes, I occasionally see a bit of paranoia... but it all stems from a genuine passion. This entire forum is an excellent education on the breed and if I had it my way, anyone considering bringing a poodle into their lives would have to read through these threads before taking a poodle home. You never realize how much you don't know, even as a professional in the pet industry, until you've surrounded yourself by the truly experienced.


----------

