# Who's Da Baby Daddy?!



## thestars (May 2, 2009)

That's good that you can at least find out her lines now.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Just wondering why it would matter, are you planning on breeding her?


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> Just wondering why it would matter, are you planning on breeding her?



Well for one, I was interested in her lines and also showing her 
next year may be in order or breeding her. She was an adoption
but previous owner and I are still in contact and she approved 
of me showing her and even breeding her if she approved the stud, 
will not be breeding for pet quality, but she and I talked about getting
a show prospect puppy. Stud I am considering now is a 8 hour drive
there and back and they want stud fee up front.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

BTW, when I went to get her, I didn't know if she had papers or was
already fixed or what-didn't matter we fell in love with her and kept her.
Upon arrival I found out she wasn't fixed and upon looking up pedigree, discovered there are some champions there. Owner that previously had
her was getting too old to take care of her but used to show toy reds
and because I told her I have always been interested in showing-she 
told me to go for it!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

This girl has a pedigree that is almost all BYB. If her sire is in fact the Double D dog, that would mean that her lines trace back to Kitsue, a notorious puppy mill that is famous for churning out litter after litter of low quality, untested dogs.

I don't see any testing listed on OFA for her dam or either stud dog. Even if you tested your girl, you would be flying blind because there is no testing behind her.

What is it about this bitch that makes her breeding quality?


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Sorry to step in, newbie here, but what is "BYB?"


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

Bella's Momma said:


> Sorry to step in, newbie here, but what is "BYB?"


Back yard breeder...one whose primary motivation is the 'almighty buck'.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Ahh, thanks. I am familiar with the term, but wasn't with the acronym.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

cbrand said:


> This girl has a pedigree that is almost all BYB. If her sire is in fact the Double D dog, that would mean that her lines trace back to Kitsue, a notorious puppy mill that is famous for churning out litter after litter of low quality, untested dogs.
> 
> I don't see any testing listed on OFA for her dam or either stud dog. Even if you tested your girl, you would be flying blind because there is no testing behind her.
> 
> What is it about this bitch that makes her breeding quality?



Strange, but there is champions there I'm sure you did see on mother's side. If I do consider showing/breeding testing will be done on HER before hand. Where I am located, it is hard to even find a dog of Mika's quality around here, believe me. There are no CH on either stud's side and it could also be very well the other stud and not Double D. 

She does have a wonderful conformation, right temperament, and I have memorized poodle faults by now and Sivaro and I have been discussing her lately,Sivaro who shows in Australia and owns several CH commented "Not a bad bitch at all!" and pointed out all of her good qualities as well. I think Mika is quality, yeah her hair cut isn't wonderful but she's got the build imo. Like I said I am considering her, lets not argue.

Trust me, I am not contributing to byb, I am an animal shelter volunteer and if I do breed her, everyhting will be carefully planned out, etc.

But like I said *considering* doesn't mean I am sure I will be breeding her, she is our baby and is a pet. And I know breeding "right" is no piece of cake I have learned. I am looking at studs that are at hours away drives! I am not in it for the money, but I really want a show prospect puppy I may can produce and if I don't find a really good reputable stud I will be hauling her to the vet to get fixed, k?


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> Strange, but there is champions there I'm sure you did see on mother's side. If I do consider showing/breeding testing will be done on HER before hand. Where I am located, it is hard to even find a dog of Mika's quality around here, believe me. There are no CH on either stud's side and it could also be very well the other stud and not Double D.
> 
> She does have a wonderful conformation, right temperament, and I have memorized poodle faults by now and Sivaro and I have been discussing her lately,Sivaro who shows in Australia and owns several CH commented "Not a bad bitch at all!" and pointed out all of her good qualities as well. I think Mika is quality, yeah her hair cut isn't wonderful but she's got the build imo. Like I said I am considering her, lets not argue.
> 
> ...



Just for the record, because Ive done it, health testing isnt cheap. Your looking at $1000.00 or more to complete the proper health testing. Even if a dog pass's all the test's, that doesnt mean the dog should be bred or is even quality for breeding. Being a novice show potential breeder isnt easy, and not something you can learn from looking at pictures online. You need to be able to see Poodles in person and put your hands on them. Be able to easily point out faults by looking at movement and etc. Attend dog shows and listen to what the breeders have to say. Take in as much info as you can before even attempting to find a stud or consider breeding for show. 

This is way more envolved then I think you realize and will cost a substantial amount of money to be successful.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> Just for the record, because Ive done it, health testing isnt cheap. Your looking at $1000.00 or more to complete the proper health testing. Even if a dog pass's all the test's, that doesnt mean the dog should be bred or is even quality for breeding. Being a novice show potential breeder isnt easy, and not something you can learn from looking at pictures online. You need to be able to see Poodles in person and put your hands on them. Be able to easily point out faults by looking at movement and etc. Attend dog shows and listen to what the breeders have to say. Take in as much info as you can before even attempting to find a stud or consider breeding for show.
> 
> This is way more envolved then I think you realize and will cost a substantial amount of money to be successful.


Trust me I do understand, breeding honestly is on the back burner for me because I DO want to find a reputable stud, then there is the drive distance with a dog, MONEY, testing (DNA, hips, eyes, etc.). Blah. When I said considering breeding her this doesn't mean next month or the next few months, oh no...this means I need to see if I can get everything in order first and she is still of proper breeding age. Like I said, she is a pet who we love and she comes first. I do plan attending some shows as well (need to see when AKC will be in Arkansas again) to watch the poodle class, be a ringside judge, and talk to handlers and breeders. I am taking this VERY seriously.

Someone pointed out it may be too late to show Mika being older and would take a year to grow a show coat. What do you think?


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> Trust me I do understand, breeding honestly is on the back burner for me because I DO want to find a reputable stud, then there is the drive distance with a dog, MONEY, testing (DNA, hips, eyes, etc.). Blah. When I said considering breeding her this doesn't mean next month or the next few months, oh no...this means I need to see if I can get everything in order first and she is still of proper breeding age. Like I said, she is a pet who we love and she comes first. I do plan attending some shows as well (need to see when AKC will be in Arkansas again) to watch the poodle class, be a ringside judge, and talk to handlers and breeders. I am taking this VERY seriously.
> 
> Someone pointed out it may be too late to show Mika being older and would take a year to grow a show coat. What do you think?


Yes, its going to take about a year to get her coat conditioned and the proper length to show her in good shape. I really hate to be the one to say this, but I wouldnt waste my time trying to make look like a show dog. She's a pet and there is nothing wrong with that. I have a pet, Eli, sitting right here too. 

Not to mention, there is the whole grooming factor you have to learn to prepare the coat. With that comes more money you have to spend. Your not working with easy Poodle puppy coat. Just in the short time I had Sting, I must of spent $1000.00 for all the supplies (brushes, blades, bands, wraps, coat conditioners, shampoo's, leads, large crate for the show, grooming assistance for show clip, proper dryer for a show coat) That didnt include the $25 dollars for entry fees. One weekend UKC = 4 shows for a $100.00. Add in food to eat, usually gas for travel and bait for your show dog. Akc fee's are the same but one show a day usually unless its a speciality for your breed. Not to mention, to finish a adult standard poodle AKC, your looking at that taking 6 months to a year for a nice Poodle. Talk about $$. lol 

Poodles are a expensive breed to show. Its all the supplies and coat maintenance they need to look good to win. Then add in all the time it takes....its alot. Im enjoying my nice break from showing right now and Im not sure I will ever have a Poodle for show again. Its just too much for me to manage with young kids. 

Dont get me wrong, its tons of fun but it takes a lot too.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

Is this the dog that was owner surrender to the animal shelter you are working for????? You said yourself you have only seen 1 standard in person so this means you really have NO clue as to how to tell if she is breed standard or not. If the owner did surrender her then agreed to let you breed her and show her, sounds fishy to me. Has she had ANY testing done??? She is 4 you said, she should have already VWd, NE, DM, CERF, JRD, SA and a few others, these should have been done already if the previous owner was not a BYB and had intended on breeding quality vs quantity. IMO You should not even be considering breeding her since she is older, and NOT tested as well as the fact that you said yourself in previous posts that you are financially strapped right now and you really should consider the cost of all the testing and such BEFORE you talk about breeding, also consider WHERE she came from.....BYB that is where, I can NOT believe you would even CONSIDER breeding her.......She looks almost as bad as the pics that were posted by Secreto of the dogs she inquired about.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> Is this the dog that was owner surrender to the animal shelter you are working for????? You said yourself you have only seen 1 standard in person so this means you really have NO clue as to how to tell if she is breed standard or not. If the owner did surrender her then agreed to let you breed her and show her, sounds fishy to me. Has she had ANY testing done??? She is 4 you said, she should have already VWd, NE, DM, CERF, JRD, SA and a few others, these should have been done already if the previous owner was not a BYB and had intended on breeding quality vs quantity. IMO You should not even be considering breeding her since she is older, and NOT tested as well as the fact that you said yourself in previous posts that you are financially strapped right now and you really should consider the cost of all the testing and such BEFORE you talk about breeding, also consider WHERE she came from.....BYB that is where, I can NOT believe you would even CONSIDER breeding her.......She looks almost as bad as the pics that were posted by Secreto of the dogs she inquired about.


I completely agree. I was trying not to offend MM but sometimes you have to just come out and say it.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I did a search to see what Mika looked like because I have not been on here for a while. I don't want to sound mean either but IMO Mika is just a pet. I would not put money into showing her. Her Tail set is way too low and I do not see a dog that is of show quality. Like Jenn Stated your looking at months to years of showing to even try to finish her this = lots of money. A pro handler would have to handle her even this might not help her win in the ring. 

Are you trying to become a breeder? if not I am not understanding what would be the purpose to breed her ? if you want a show pup then buy one from a reputable breeder.


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I did a search to see what Mika looked like because I have not been on here for a while. I don't want to sound mean either but IMO Mika is just a pet. I would not put money into showing her. Her Tail set is way too low and I do not see a dog that is of show quality. Like Jenn Stated your looking at months to years of showing to even try to finish her this = lots of money. A pro handler would have to handle her even this might not help her win in the ring.
> 
> Are you trying to become a breeder? if not I am not understanding what would be the purpose to breed her ? if you want a show pup then buy one from a reputable breeder.


EXACTLY! You would do better with doing that then trying to get a show pup out of her, and it would probably be less $ in the long run as well as you would have a better chance at a HEALTHY pup as well. I don't like upsetting people either, but ya know, I have seen a few veterans out there in the dog game tell it how it is and that IS how it needs to be, Mika may be a sweet dog, but she is NOT IMO breed quality. Do yourself and others a favor, have her spayed and find a reputable breeder to purchase a quality pup from if you truely love the breed and want to show that is great, but don't set your foundation on a dog that has NOT been bred for quality but instead to line someones pockets.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

passion4poodles said:


> EXACTLY! You would do better with doing that then trying to get a show pup out of her, and it would probably be less $ in the long run as well as you would have a better chance at a HEALTHY pup as well. I don't like upsetting people either, but ya know, I have seen a few veterans out there in the dog game tell it how it is and that IS how it needs to be, Mika may be a sweet dog, but she is NOT IMO breed quality. Do yourself and others a favor, have her spayed and find a reputable breeder to purchase a quality pup from if you truely love the breed and want to show that is great, but don't set your foundation on a dog that has NOT been bred for quality but instead to line someones pockets.


I don't either its hard to tell people the truth because they either think your a know it all or just being mean.

Despite her pedigree if she did look to standard then I would say have a poodle breeder evaluate her and see what they think. We had this done on Enzo because we are new to poodles and Enzo's pedigree is not that great either but we had many say Enzo could CH. 

But Mika is just a lovely pet do not feel bad about it , I think it would be best to spay her and if you want a show dog get one from a reputable breeder P4P is right you will save money going this route instead of breeding Mika and trying to get a show quality puppy out of her.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Mercymoon, she is so sweet but I have to agree with the others. She really is a pet quality spoo. I saw some faults in the first pics you posted that are going to really work against her in the ring. 

I can see you putting lots of money in to her and then having nothing come of it. I don't think it is wise to breed her with those faults. You may or may not get a show quality dog; it has happened before. But, what about all the other puppies? If they carry her faults, then it is a disservice to the breed and you won't get good poodle people to buy them.

I think your best investment is to get a show quality puppy and then have someone mentor you in all that has to be done with it. I have shown Billy and it is tons of work and gets very expensive. I was told by a judge and a 30 year veteran of handling that he could finish but he just didn't like the ring. I pulled him from showing and we are both happy. Sometimes, it just isn't meant to be.

I hope you don't feel bad about this. We all love our poodles but we have to be practical when it comes to showing and breeding. 

I got a puppy of good quality that is 6 months old now and will start her show career hopefully by September. Even with that quality, I am not sure how she will fair in the ring. Poodles in show is a tough place to be.
_


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

I am not trying to be rude, or dissuade you from trying to show dogs. But you need to have someone else evaluate her before you breed or show or even register her. Just because you know the standard frontward and back does not mean you can accurately evaluate a dog if a breed that you have only seen in person one other time.

I have a standard, his name is Gotti. At the time I thought that if a dog was AKC registered, it meant that it was show quality. 
Gotti had perfect conformation as far as I knew. I had read the standard, I knew it by heart. I took Gotti to show handling classes for months, and then entered him in 5 days of shows. I didnt get the haircut right, but I was still learning, Right? He pranced around the ring, and I thought he was great. But you know what? he is cow hocked, has a progressively worsening case of HD his back is roached, and his tailset is low. 

Over time his structural problems are getting worse. 


He does have champions behind him as well, and his dad has been OFA'd Excellent

I neutered him and he is now a pet. 
I don't wish anything like this on anyone OR their dog, but I have learned alot in the time I have been showing. One thing is that if you enter this dog, no one will tell you their honest opinion on her, because they don't want to break a major, or lose out on points. they will snicker behind your back, but they will not be up front. 

In regards to testing (OFA CERF ect) yes you can test her, but you don't know what her parents and grandparents ect had as far as hip dysplasia and so on, genetic disorders can pop up generations later. 

as far as DNA testing, it may be only $40 for her, but then you will most likely have to have the 2 male dogs tested as well, since the owner never did. 



There is a shelf life for breeding. 
IMO 4 years old is too old to be having her first litter. Thats if you breed her now. if you wait until she is finished, and then for all her testing to come back, she will be at least 5 (allowing 1 year for hair growth) thats is WAY TOO OLD for her first litter. 

You work for animal control, you have seen what happens to dogs who are not wanted. Standard poodles are not as rare as you think, and they also do not sell for as much, or as quickly as you would think. 

Gotti's litter took 10 months to sell, what are you going to do with 10 puppies that are 16 weeks- 10 months old that no one wants to spend money on? Will you just cut your losses and give them away? Will you keep them all? 


breeding or showing are two very serious things, you don't go into it without preparing yourself thoroughly. 


My suggestion to you is to go to a dog show, when everybody is done showing for the day, talk to some poodle people and ask them if they could evaluate your dog for showing or breeding. 

since you are not their competion, they are less apt to blow smoke up your ass, and will give some good opinions. 




your other option is to spay your bitch who has already had a rough enough life im sure, and get a show quality puppy from a reputible breeder. one will tested parents, and who knows "who's da baby daddy"


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Thanks to those of you trying to be helpful, I didn't find you rude at all.
One comment I did find catty though, not going to say which, Sivaro 
just told me to drop it. So I'm dropping it.

Would like to state his dog had nothing to do with my shelter at all,
I went in got her in another town some miles away, the people did give her to me, yes. I am still in close contact with them.

Thanks for the advice, I realize I don't know much about showing,
but I would like to do so one day, for now I suppose I will try to 
attend shows and such.


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## pmdavis (May 6, 2009)

MM,

I'm not sure what resources you have in your geographical location, but is there a local poodle club that you can get involved in? That may be the best way to start exposing yourself to showing. I have started to attend our local meetings here, and am going to be a ring steward in a poodle speciality show in a few weeks. It might be a good way to get aquainted and learn more about the industry. It's a thought....


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> Thanks to those of you trying to be helpful, I didn't find you rude at all.
> One comment I did find catty though, not going to say which, Sivaro
> just told me to drop it. So I'm dropping it.
> 
> ...



So you got her as a foster or you went and got her for yourself? You called it a owner surrender before so that would makes one think, she had to do with the shelter or fostering. Somethings just seem weird here. Probably just the amount of info being shared ??

Anyhow, the point is that several people have spoken out and gave there honest opinion/advise and have been pretty nice. Im not convinced Sivaro is supporting the thought of what you have in mind for your new dog. I do have a feeling you will do exactly what you originally wanted (breed her) and keep it quite since so many have raised concern now. 

Im sorry MM, but your really young and have alot to learn still. I would take the advise that many took time to give you.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

MM, I think it is great that you want to own and show your own poodle. I have to say that I agree with much that was said here, though. My first thoughts when I saw the pics you posted was that she was a "pet" quality girl. Her tail set is so extremely low that I'm afraid it would be a waist of your money with her. I did not say anything at the time as I figured you adopted her as a pet.

If you are really interested in getting involved with showing, it would be less costly for you to find a pup/dog that comes as close to the standard as possible and have a great time with her/him.

Here is an excellent link to seeing the breakdown of what the poodle standard is, great info in this. Of course, there is no such thing as a "perfect" dog, every dog has some minor faults, but obvious, stand out faults would not allow you to win in the ring.
http://cincinnatipoodleclub.org/pdf_files/Illustrated Study Poodle Breed.pdf


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

SECRETO said:


> So you got her as a foster or you went and got her for yourself? You called it a owner surrender before so that would makes one think, she had to do with the shelter or fostering. Somethings just seem weird here. Probably just the amount of info being shared ??
> 
> Anyhow, the point is that several people have spoken out and gave there honest opinion/advise and have been pretty nice. Im not convinced Sivaro is supporting the thought of what you have in mind for your new dog. I do have a feeling you will do exactly what you originally wanted (breed her) and keep it quite since so many have raised concern now.
> 
> Im sorry MM, but your really young and have alot to learn still. I would take the advise that many took time to give you.



I got her because I wanted her, she wasn't in a foster home, but they was trying to re-home her, brought her home to see if it worked out and it did, so I kept her. I wasn't lying the owner got too old to take care of her, but this had nothing to do with my animal shelter. I also have been talking back and forth to Sivaro and have even shown her this thread, I trust Sivaro's judgment. If I do breed her...that's me, but guess what I probably won't that's what I've been saying this whole time "It's on the back burner for me" when I said I was "considering breeding her" that was like a "maybe" maybe doesn't mean "yes" or "no" and people get crazy with responses, some of them advice and some catty mean remarks about how *bad* my dog looks, whatever. When you are a ringside judge you are supposed to look for the good qualities a dog posesses first rather than looking FOR FAULTS RIGHT AWAY (I have a book that states this,lol) But yes I will probably get a show puppy from another breeder in the future and Mika will be a pet, because if I was going to breed her I would be willing to do it right with tests, etc and I think I would be better off buying a puppy.

But thanks for the advice, I'm not ashamed, upset, or pissed off!

*I'm not even going to say anything more, just let the thread die. So ya'll can talk amongst yourself if you want but I suggest letting it go. *


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I think you've been given a lot of good advice on the breeding issue, but I do understand you desire to have your girls pedigree. It's interesting if you're into that sort of thing. I also understand you desire to show her, even if she shouldn't be bred. I think we've all heard how it can be difficult for a newbie to jump into showing. Wouldn't it be nice if there were mock shows for out of standard dogs? Kind of like match shows but for adult dogs, so new handlers can get some practice. That way you wouldn't be letting down your future show quality pup or it's breeder.


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