# Understanding color genetics



## TaterTate (12 mo ago)

Hello looking for advice. I’m wanting a female for my fella. Tater is jet black Carries Ee, NN, Bb, DD, KB/KY,
AY/AY, SS, rr, mm, hh, FF, TT, CC, 
I’m wanting a variety in color not just black puppies. Can I get input on what genetic markers I should look for in a partner for him? Thank you. He is also close to 85 pounds so I’d love a bigger gal. I just have limited education on genetic markers. Thank you in advance


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Two good resources on the topic are the Dog Coat Colour Genetics web site and the Poodle Colour Genetics group on FB. Also keep in mind that the owner of a female dog is going to be very picky about who her girl dates. Expect a difficult "young man, what are your prospects" conversation.


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## TaterTate (12 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Two good resources on the topic are the Dog Coat Colour Genetics web site and the Poodle Colour Genetics group on FB. Also keep in mind that the owner of a female dog is going to be very picky about who her girl dates. Expect a difficult "young man, what are your prospects" conversation.


I haven’t really offered him as a stud. Many ppl are impressed with his size and structure. I was looking more for myself. I’d like to purchase a parti brindle female to breed to my boy. I thought that could give me a variety of color plus the pup Carrie’s the blue gene.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Some good information here:








Science Corner: Coat Color Genetics 101


Coat color genetics can be fun and interesting at the same time. This is because there seems to be an exception to every rule, and the veterinary genetics community still has a lot to discover about coat color. Learning about the inheritance of coat colors can be incredibly rewarding as it is an...




embarkvet.com




And more in depth here:


Dog Coat Colour Genetics



Because Tater is Ee, he carries for the apricot range (cream to red). If he was bred with a dog that is in that range (ee) or is Ee, you could get black and apricot puppies.
Tater also carries brown Bb. He could produce brown puppies if he was bred with a dog in the brown range (silver beige, cafe au lait, brown) or one who is also Bb.
Do be aware that if you combine those two, you could have apricot range pups with brown points (nose and eye rims) and the breed standard states they should have black.
Finally, Tater could produce sable pups if bred with a sable or phantom (Ky Ky, Ay or At). The sable can be modified by the brown/black genes as well.
When you boil it down, if you bred Tater to any color other than black, you should get at least two colors in the litter. 

While I love cor genetics and figuring out what the possibilities are, it really should not be the primary concern.
Depending on where you live, it's difficult enough to find a health-tested dog to breed to, one that has a good temperament and is an ideal match for Tater in size and in balancing out any faults in either dog. Color is a bonus, don't get hung up on it.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Poodles don't carry the blue gene. There is a fading gene but it's not a marker yet.
Tater also doesn't carry parti, so the most you could get is small white spots.


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## TaterTate (12 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> Some good information here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. He has an amazing temperament and is very smart. He is also always happy and loves everyone. He is a full package. I feel he would enhance the breed if bred. I’m considering purchasing a parti brindle female who has all the requirements like Tater. Your thoughts?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

TaterTate said:


> I haven’t really offered him as a stud. Many ppl are impressed with his size and structure. I was looking more for myself. I’d like to purchase a parti brindle female to breed to my boy. I thought that could give me a variety of color plus the pup Carrie’s the blue gene.


He doesn't carry the blue dilution gene, and that's actually a good thing. Blue dilution is associated with alopecia.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Why, oh why, do people try to breed for colors/markings, particularly if those colors or markings are not in the breed standard? The very worst thing to do is to breed for merle because it is associated with genes that produce serious health conditions. Furthermore, merle did not occur in poodles until quite recently, thus indicating that it was introduced by cross breeding.

Poodles come in a delightful range of colors, but they are supposed to be all one color, no markings. I strongly suspect that many people who are deliberately breeding for improper color/marking are doing so in order to advertise the puppies as being "rare".


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## TaterTate (12 mo ago)

Everyone has an opinion, and you certainly have a strong one. Let’s remember that a painted horse was also once not standard and frowned upon; however now has its own registration and is nationally recognized!! I proudly have 6 in my field! I’m partial to flash and elegance so I love the parti poodle. I’m NOT breeding for color only! However I do want more than just black puppies so I’m attempting to educate myself. I have found many nice poodle owners willing to discuss issues and be kind and help explain things, however just like any other topic there’s controversy. If my post offended anyone that was not my intention and that’s on the reader, there’s just to many things ppl get bent out of shape with so it is what it is. I fully plan to purchase a gorgeous parti poodle and I adore the fading gene of blues and silver!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

TaterTate said:


> Everyone has an opinion, and you certainly have a strong one. Let’s remember that a painted horse was also once not standard and frowned upon; however now has its own registration and is nationally recognized!! I proudly have 6 in my field! I’m partial to flash and elegance so I love the parti poodle. I’m NOT breeding for color only! However I do want more than just black puppies so I’m attempting to educate myself. I have found many nice poodle owners willing to discuss issues and be kind and help explain things, however just like any other topic there’s controversy. If my post offended anyone that was not my intention and that’s on the reader, there’s just to many things ppl get bent out of shape with so it is what it is. I fully plan to purchase a gorgeous parti poodle and I adore the fading gene of blues and silver!


Ah yes, this is one of the "young man, what are your prospects" conversations I mentioned. I own both a Paint and a QH, so I'm familiar with the cropout white controversies in the horse world. I'm also familiar with some of the issues caused by poor breeding practices in the stock horse breeds: HERDA, HYPP, structurally unsound feet, Lethal White, etc. Think how your question would be taken if you popped up on a horse board saying: "I have a pretty pinto stallion and I want to breed him to a Paint mare." Probably you would immediately get a bunch of comments: "amateurs have no business owning stallions" mixed with: "OMG watch out for Frame Overo."

I love parti dogs; my first two poodles were partis, and my current puppy is color bred rather than show bred. However, I will say that my current show bred boy Galen is in a completely different league as far as movement, smarts, and trainability than any of my color bred dogs. Johanna is very very experienced with dog showing & breeding. She also knows horses.  You can learn a lot from her.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

There are many poodles with a nice temperament and good structure out there. 

Here's what you should be looking for in a female poodle, and the female poodle's owner will likely look for from you. In addition to the genetic tests for inherited diseases that you probably did when you tested for colour: 









Recommended Tests | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Read the OFA recommended tests for all breeds of dogs, from Affenpinscher to the Yorkshire Terrier. Great resource for learning about your dog's health.




www.ofa.org





Particularly hips, on an 85 lb poodle. 

I've also seen more breeders testing elbows. 

Personally, I'd also want more objective proof that your dog has 'a nice temperament' through some sort of title - even if not a conformation title, 

And here's a link to poodle colour genetics, though sadly not as straightforward or clearly written as it could be.






COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES


ARPEGGIO Poodles information on color breeding in poodles



arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com





Oh, and feel like adding his height and weight to this thread? I would love to see more of the very large standards on the graph.









What's the height and weight of your poodle?


After reading some posts on this forum, it seems poodles can vary quite a lot in their height and weight. The official standards for poodle types are determined by height. Toy Poodles are up to 10 inches tall, Miniature Poodle are above 10 inches but below 15 inches tall, and Standard Poodle...




www.poodleforum.com


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The poodle that convinced my husband poodles aren't foo-foo dogs was a parti owned by one of my friends. Aside from being a parti, that dog was one of the most beautifully moving dogs I've ever seen. He had a extended trot like a dressage horse. Watching him move was like watching song turned into motion. I was so disappointed when my own poodles didn't have that same sweet floating action, although Galen comes close. I recently saw the same beauty in a video Galen's breeder posted of an acquaintance's dog winning an AKC conformation title. Every foot step was perfect and precise. If I were ever to get into breeding parti-dogs I would start hanging out at both AKC and UKC shows looking for breeders with dogs of that quality.


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## TaterTate (12 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> The poodle that convinced my husband poodles aren't foo-foo dogs was a parti owned by one of my friends. Aside from being a parti, that dog was one of the most beautifully moving dogs I've ever seen. He had a extended trot like a dressage horse. Watching him move was like watching song turned into motion. I was so disappointed when my own poodles didn't have that same sweet floating action, although Galen comes close. I recently saw the same beauty in a video Galen's breeder posted of an acquaintance's dog winning an AKC conformation title. Every foot step was perfect and precise. If I were ever to get into breeding parti-dogs I would start hanging out at both AKC and UKC shows looking for breeders with dogs of that quality.


Thank you for all the help everyone! My boy is pretty fancy in his movements much like a dressage horse as well. Probably not near the show dog you described but everyone always comments on him. He is big boned as well. I just love him so much.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I like the comparison to a dressage horse. A poodle should not have a long, low extended trot like a German shepherd. Instead, a poodle should have a light, springy trot. Think of a dressage horse doing a piaffe. Sadly, I don't see much of that in the show ring any more. When I was judging poodles, I sounded like a broken record saying "slow down" over and over again. 

Poodles have slightly sloping pasterns that are very elastic in order to produce that spring. Think of them in the field leaping up from time to time to see where the bird has gone. Do not imagine them driving livestock with long, low strides (although I have had some poodles who were great at herding my horses!).


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Johanna said:


> I like the comparison to a dressage horse. A poodle should not have a long, low extended trot like a German shepherd. Instead, a poodle should have a light, springy trot. Think of a dressage horse doing a piaffe. Sadly, I don't see much of that in the show ring any more. When I was judging poodles, I sounded like a broken record saying "slow down" over and over again.
> 
> Poodles have slightly sloping pasterns that are very elastic in order to produce that spring. Think of them in the field leaping up from time to time to see where the bird has gone. Do not imagine them driving livestock with long, low strides (although I have had some poodles who were great at herding my horses!).


That low trot is what I found so disappointing in Pogo and Snarky's movement. In horse terms they had daisy cutter action, like what you see in the Quarter Horse hunter under saddle classes. Ritter has a bit more elegance to his movement than they did, but he still has a tendency to galumph. He's just so big. I guess I'd compare him to a light draft horse: a bit of flashy knee action but too solidly built to ever be truly elegant. Galen moves like a dancer.


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