# My first picky eater



## ArmyWife

I actually have a problem with the wonder pup, and I'm hoping some of the more experienced members here can help me out. I've never had a dog that didn't eat before, and it is very frustrating! Bravo is 12 weeks old, and 6.5 lbs at our last vet check three days ago. He has a clean bill of health from a stool sample and blood CDC test, but he just isnt into his food. I feed wellness just for puppy small breed, and tO entice him to eat I mix a small amount of wellness just for puppy canned food. My problem is he doesn't even eat a quarter of what the breeder said he should be eating (a cup a day,) and to me, he seems skinny. I do supplement his diet with salmon oil for his dry summer skin, and he seems to like that, but even then he only eats about 1/4 of what I offer him. 

Anyone have any ideas? He just seems a bit thin to me, otherwise I wouldn't be concerned. During our training session I use tiny tiny freeze dried liver treats which he eats willingly, and I know I'm not feeding enough o those at 3pm to spoil his 10pm dinner. He's been with us for 3 weeks and he eats (or doesn't eat) twice a day, once at 11 and once at 1O. Thanks in advance for any ideas!


----------



## Siskojan

Sisko was a bad eater and we even kept 2 kinds of food to switch back and forth, it worked a bit for a while. Eventually a few days at daycare cured him! He failed to eat before I took him and he came back starving and has eaten like a real dog ever since. On our recent trip I had to scoop some food out of his bowl and get it in his mouth to get him started, as he was a bit confused and off his schedule. As a puppy I think he got hungry and low blood sugar-ish - he had some frothy white salivary pukes and because he felt nauseous wouldn't eat and that was what he needed most to do. Stimulating his appetite with something smelly and tasty could get him going. He was always a bit thin and I hated that he didn't enjoy his food. Even prime tidbits were taken gently and rolled around in his mouth and tasted carefully.


----------



## CharlieMyPoodle

I am not an experienced dog owner by any means, but we experienced something similar recently. 

When Charlie came from the adoption center, he was not eating very well. The adoption counselor informed us of this problem. 

During his first few days at home, he barely ate anything. So I would feed him, and take away any portion that was untouched, after he walked away from it. 

I'll tell you, after two days, when I placed the food bowl down, Charlie ate like me  - nothing left in the plate. 

He still does not finish his food some mornings, but in the evening he'll clear his bowl. I still remove it when he walks away, whether he is done with the food or not. 

I don't know if this is helpful or not. 

Best of luck to you.


----------



## outwest

I know Wellness is an excellent food, but maybe you should try something different. Some dogs love one food, but not another. Some love chicken, some love lamb. My puppy was not eating well with the first food we bought her, so I decided to try a different one. She chows down on the new food rarely leaving any. I also think Charlie's idea is good. You don't want to make a pickier eater than you have. Just pick it up when he doesn't finish it. He will be hungrier with the next meal.


----------



## fjm

At that age, your pup may well have a sore mouth from teething - have you tried softening the kibble with salt-free chicken or beef stock? Or simply shift to a soft food for a while. The pick-it-up-if-they-don't-eat method often works, but I would be a bit wary of it for a small, young puppy - you do not want to risk hypoglycaemia.

I found all pickiness vanished when I started feeding raw/home cooked!


----------



## Rowan

We must have poodle twins!  My vet refers to my sable mini as the "Lance Armstrong of poodles." He's also a picky eater and is very lean (he's one of those lucky ones with a fast metabolism!)

Like *fjm*, I had good luck with a homecooked diet. Maybe you could mix in some ground buffalo/beef, rare red meat or plain, roasted chicken or even chicken liver, etc.? I know some people are hesitant to feed raw (me included) so I'm thinking the rare to cooked route may help encourage him to eat. 

When I had a couple of finicky seniors (13+ yoa), I had the best luck with Merrick canned (they liked them all but the wingalings especially were a big hit). I didn't like feeding commercial foods but as seniors (often on meds), they had to eat and I was desperate. Even my Lance Armstrong poodle will eat Merrick! But if he's not hungry, he simply won't finish his meal and has done so since he was a puppy.


----------



## ArmyWife

Thanks for all of the suggestions, guys. Unfortunately I dont have time or money to add special ingredients to his diet, and my moms dog eats dry mixed with Merrick canned food and bravo doesn't like it. For now I have the best luck with 1/4th wellness just for puppy (I switched from the big bites t the small breed which sorta helps) a pump of salmon oil (finally up to a full pump,) a small forkfull of plain yogurt, and about 1 1/2 tablespoons of canned wellness just for puppy. He never finishes it though. I dot want to has to cut out the wet and go back to the chicken broth. I like that the wet counts as food also, and it helps get him some protein. Ugh. I'm at a total loss, and I've already sPent so much money on food.


----------



## JE-UK

There are lots of things that are easy and cheap to add palatability; you might try a spoonful of cottage cheese, grated cheese, olive oil, scrambled egg, etc. And most human meal leftovers are fine for dogs in small quantities, and add a lot of interest to a meal for a dog!


----------



## fjm

If the problem is that his mouth is sore, just adding some water along with the wet food to make a gravy and leaving it to soak for a while would help, and not cost a thing.


----------



## mom24doggies

My puppy was picky too, until I started feeding him raw, now he eats like a champ.  I don't have to coax him to eat or have him eat only a few bites at a time. Also, 1 cup seems like way to much for a puppy of that size. I think I fed Trev 1/2 a cup or so when he was 6 lbs.


----------



## ArmyWife

I am more than just interested in feeding a raw diet. I'd love nothing more. I just fear that I am going to do something wrong. I wish I had someone who could find someone to write me out a shopping list and meal plan. I mean, I love this little poo. I want to do right by him. I also want a food motivated dog. So, at the risk of someone here strangling me for making them answer this type of question, I beg you for help, from a girl who is at her wits end with her puppy and his lack of interest. I guess after losing my last dog at 3 years old from kidney failure Im scared of having my heart brOken again. If anyone can help me to do this and do it right, I'll seriously name my first child after you. No kidding. That's how confused/stressed I am. 

What should I buy to start this off? I know I'm supposed to begin with chicken and slowly add in protein. But how? There's also a lot of conflicting ideas on what parts of the animals to feed, which has me flustered, and how much to feed.

What is all this about ratios and organ meats? Where do I even go about finding organ meat to buy? How will I know how much is enough? (I'm terrible at math!)

Do I thaw all this out before feeding? Can I pre-portion once or twice a week and keep it in the fridge? 
Are veggies, carbs, supplements, and all of the add ins necessary? if so, what should I use? He gets daily salmon oil and occasional bland yogurt but I've seen some complicated writing on supplements. (leedburg kennels does an insane amount of writing on it.) 

This little guy is my family now; and my constant companion. I want him to love life as much as possible - starting with his food. I can't afford premixed raw so I'd like to figure this out befOre this bag of wellness runs out. 

Thank you a million times over in advance


----------



## itzfoxfire58

when I first got Fallen, he wouldn't eat either, I poured out 1 cup old food to 1 cup new food and he just sniffed it, I let it stay there for about 40 minutes then I took it away, the second day he ate about half of it, this went on for about 4 days, so I thought maybe he doesn't like the food. I went to the pet store and spoke to a lady there, she told me to sprinkle some of the food with water (not a lot) and put it in the microwave for about 20 seconds, after that mix it with the rest of the food and put your hands all in it when your mixing it. Well he's been eating but leaving some, but today I fed him 3 and he ate the whole thing like he was starving. LOL. Good Luck


----------



## ArmyWife

Thank you for your speedy reply, but I've already tried that. In fact I've already tried water, chicken broth, cottage cheese, three different wet foods, yogurt and baby food. I'm looking at purchasing primal's raw mix to start off with - anyone have any ideas which flavor is best? Duck, beef, chicken? I was thinking duck but that's just because his favorite toy is a duck. It's so sad that this is what I am basing my very important decisions on, but I'm really flying blind.


----------



## ArmyWife

Thank you for your speedy reply, but I've already tried that. In fact I've already tried water, chicken broth, cottage cheese, three different wet foods, yogurt and baby food. I'm looking at purchasing primal's raw mix to start off with - anyone have any ideas which flavor is best? Duck, beef, chicken? I was thinking duck but that's just because his favorite toy is a duck. It's so sad that this is what I am basing my very important decisions on, but I'm really flying blind. 

His last vet check put him in perfect health, so this isn't medical. I think that raw is my best bet - but I don't have the time to do it myself.  plus my Parents would murder me


----------



## papoodles

Hi Army wife.
I fel your pain..one of my poodles is a little PITA when it comes to eating, but as she's made it to 7 yrs old, I am not too worried anymore.It is just frustrating, isn't it- when they don't participate in one of life's great pleasures- eating!

Anyway, I have the best luck when I add raw meat to her kibble.( Wellness Core)I add about a TBLS of raw lean hamburger, chopped raw heart, or a bit of liver and mix it all in with a bit of boiling water.Yesterday I gave her some tripe- she loved it.
Ora suggested getting cans of green tripe- Tripette, I think it is called?But even then- somedays she'll not be hungry.
Ora suggested leaving the food down for 30 min.only, taking it away, and then serving it at the next meal..I think eventually she'll eat.


----------



## papoodles

can't spell, obviously..meant 'feel- not 'fel'.
But I fell for my puppies machinations- she has me wrapped around her little paw! :_)


----------



## ArmyWife

Here I find myself with two problems. The more I read about raw, the more it appeals to me. I myself hate processed foods. Why do I selfishly expect my dog to enjoy them? Is it worth the money and convenience to spend that much on a pre-packaged raw food? Dogfoodadvisor.com rates primal as a 5 star complete food. I know my local mom-n-pop store always has it in stock. 

Does anyone at all have any experience with it ? Something deep down in my gut tells me he'd thrive on raw food, and if i dont have the option of making my own until hubby and i move out, prePacked is my next best bet but I need to hear an opinion from someone here. I have no idea why. But I'm sick of forcw feeding him something that doesn't even look like food just to have to deal with his tear stains and dry skin 'for my convenience."


----------



## papoodles

*Dr Pitcairn's Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs & Cats*

Hi Army wife,
I have one more suggestion to make.
If you aren't ready/able to transition to an all raw diet, then i suggest that you grab the above book( Amazon); there are a couple of complete recipes, including nutritional analysis) for a home cooked diet.
For example, there is one recipe called"Dog Loaf", that is a complete meal, which can be feed either cooked or raw.
If you are interested, I can pm you the recipe when i have a moment.
Off to give my Standard poodle her S.A. treatment,
three hours minimum :-(


----------



## whitepoodles

ArmyWife:

I used to feed raw (Dr. Ian Billinghurts and Kymethy Schultz books).
SOME of my dogs did well on it, while others did not and were forever skinny.

I also stopped feeding raw because the demand was increasing and supply dwindeling in my area. I breed and so I need quantities to feed puppies as well not just 4 mature dogs and needless to say a pregnant and lactating bitch can it 4 times the amount she regularly its when she is not pregnant and/or lactating so a breeder needs a constant supply and a sure one of RMB and Ofal in order to make sure that they never go without food for their dogs.

This was impossible for me to depend on and so I had to switch to a good kibble.

I have one spoo who is allergic to grain so I feed that dog Fromm 4 star Surf and Turf or Acana Pacifica (the latter is made in Cda.) Both are fish based protein. I prefer not to feed animal based protein such as poultry or beef/lamb.. I resort to fish only, just feel safer this way.

The dogs who are not allergic to grain I feed Fromm 4 star Salmon A La Veggies. 

I also used canned TRIPETTE and put a dollop of the canned food mash it into their food and serve it. You really have to mash it well and cover all the kibble for them not to pick the canned off from the kibble.

I also cook for my dogs and freeze the cooked food in yogurt plastic containers and take it out of the fridge and put 3 tbsp full into each dog's bowl both in the am and pm feeding.

YES I do use a BIT of ground beef or chuck or pork meat,,, but it is NOT their main meal... that is why I say I prefer not to feed animal based protein, and resort only to fish based for their main diet. All the extras are in great moderation and only to be able to make the food pallatable for them.

I use Tripette canned (beef or lamb with duck and salmon), I also use the Hollistic Blend Lamb (pate).. 

Merick is too liquidy and may give your dog loose stools, also it is expensive but not necesarily a good choice as your dog seems to not like it.

Switch to the above mentioned cans and you will be surprised he may start to eat his food.

My Anessa is VERY picky with what she eats and is in fact skinny but very healthy ( I WISH I WAS SKINNY, LOL). Once she was introduced to the Tripette cans and Hollistic Blend Lamb she started eating well, not everything but by far better than she used to.

If you really need to put weight on your dog and fast, I would suggest that you make and give him what is called SATIN BALLS. If you want me to give you the recipe , I have it if not you can google it and they have it on the net. This is raw based and can put weight on a corpse. 

Handlers use it to fatten up dogs while living with them and on the show circuit so that they will be in optimum condition.

I make and freeze these balls adn give it as a treat to my dogs three times per week and they are all raw based.

and Oh yes.. NO DOG WILL EVER STARVE THEMSELVES it is not in their nature.. so put the food down, dont look at your dog as if you want to ask him.. Is your supper good honey ? Put the bowl down with all the goodies in it and walk away.. IF he does not touch it lift it within 30 min. put it in the fridge and IGNORE your dog's soulful eyes.

LOL my husband at times acts like an injured puppy if he does not like his food. I just put it on the table and if I see he sulks, I lift the plate, put it in the fridge and if he wishes he can make a nice meal on his own, I have done my duty, and that is all you can do for your dog.. Just put the food down, if he sulks, lift it after 30 min. and walk away.

Trust me, you do this every time he looks at his food with the look of What is that all you are gonna give me... and ignore his non verbal protests and he will be eating willingly within 2-3 days.

Good luck.


----------



## Countryboy

Well I have no experience with RAW . . and only a brief experience *so far* with Poodles. BUT! . . I have a degree in Social Psychology so I should be able to outwit a dog when it comes to his feeding. 

'Cept I can't . . yet.  lol

My 40lb guy will eat anything from one cup of straight kibble a day to 5 cups, depending on how 'new and delicious' I serve it up to him. Sometimes my inclination for 'n & d' wanes to the point that he gets straight kibble, hardly eats all day, and still lives. 

I've followed 'feeding' threads in this forum, talked to the breeder for tips, and even to the vet. All the hints are useful to some extent, but not applicable in all cases . . and not every day.

It's gotten to the point where I realize that there is not a 'one technique fits all' strategy here. Mostly 'coz we're dealing with very strong 'dog personalities' that may not transition from one home to another. 

At this point I still see it as a challenge which I will not give up on but won't become a slave to either. So everyday is a new experiment . . but an experiment that applies to me and my house and one particular, picky dog.  lol

I like yr idea of trying the pre-packaged RAW, and it seems that u do too. Why don't u try that then and see if it works. If it doesn't, try something else. 

Continue to keep yr ears open for new tips on feeding . . and experiment. U will surely find something that works for u and yr pup.


----------



## ArmyWife

Thanks for the responses. Whitepoodles, I did that for a week and it didnt work. That's how I always trained my own dogs and my client's dogs to be not-fussy. It worked on all my other dogs. Bravo is just particularly stubborn I suppose. Either that or he's trying to tell me something.


----------



## Geneva77

I don't know about raw feeding but my pup just ate a raw banana. Hope that is safe for her as I have heard that fruits and veggies are good for them. She didn't care too much for apple that I had given her a couple of weeks ago. she just chewed some and left it.


----------



## fjm

My two are adults, around 8 - 9 pounds, and get a combination of raw/home cooked (Sophy doesn't like raw organ meat). I am not a professional nor an expert, but have very happy, healthy small dogs!

For a simple start, I would recommend buying a pack of supermarket chicken wings, chopping them in half at the joint, and freezing them on a tray so that when you bag them they are easy to separate. One piece = one meal, two meals a day. I buy bags of frozen green tripe pieces, 2 ounces makes one meal. Ditto beef cheek, or any other meat chunks. Tripe will count as organ meat, but I like to add some liver/kidney/heart - chicken livers are easily found, and I can get lamb or pigs heart and liver easily. The aim is for around 10% - so half a meal every 5 or 6 meals would be about right. Other meal options to ring the changes would be a scrambled egg with half a slice of dry bread, or half a small can of sardines with dry bread. Sticking to one protein source for a few weeks enables you to check for any adverse reactions, but I have to say mine jumped in with a mix of whatever was easily available locally. I portion up fresh food and freeze it - frozen I try to buy in free flow bags and take out what I need each day.

Pups need 2 - 3% of their adult weight per day - reckoning your puppy will be 14 pounds as an adult, that is around 4 - 6 ounces per day.

So a possible starter set of recipes, based on feeding three times a day:
Meal 1: Half a chicken wing (approx 2 ounces)
Meal 2: Scant 2 oz tripe, or boneless chicken meat with skin
Meal 3: Scrambled egg with toast
Meal 4: half a chicken wing
Meal 5: 1 oz chicken meat, 1 oz chicken liver
Meal 6: 2 oz tripe, or boneless chicken meat with skin
Meal 7: half a chicken wing
Meal 8: half a tin of sardines with toast
Meal 9: 2 oz tripe, or boneless chicken meat with skin
Meal 10: half a chicken wing
Meal 11: 1 oz chicken meat, 1 oz chicken liver
Meal 12: 2 oz tripe, or boneless chicken meat with skin

These quantities may be a bit generous, especially if you are feeding treats as well. Cut them down to 1.5 oz if necessary.

The aim is for 1 meal with bone in, to approximately two meals without bone. Chicken wings are often not very high in bone content, so 2:3 may work for your pup - you can tell from the poops! I am sure other raw feeders will offer amendments and enhancements! 

I found the dogaware.com site very reassuring and easy to follow. You will often hear that a high protein diet can lead to kidney problems (very worrying when you lost your dog so tragically young) but the latest research indicates that this is a fallacy.


----------



## ArmyWife

Than you so much for the reply! I did have a lot of time tO do sOme research this morning, and after reading a ton of independent reviews, I went and bit the bullet and got him a bag of primal lamb nuggets. This morning I mixed two nuggets (thawed in warm water) with a tiny bit of kibble and his salmon oil. 

He ate it. He didn't just eat it. He licked the bowl clean. He's never done that even when switching to a new wet food or getting some new tasty mix in. I'm going to switch him over fast, he's got an iron belly in terms of food. So after more research, I packed his kong with some freeze dried liver and another primal nugget (his mid-day snack while I am at work) and stuck it in the fridge. 

I dont mind spending this much on food if it's not going directly into the garbage pail. I have really done research, and I think this is the best choice for us right now.


----------



## whitepoodles

ArmyWife said:


> Thanks for the responses. Whitepoodles, I did that for a week and it didnt work. That's how I always trained my own dogs and my client's dogs to be not-fussy. It worked on all my other dogs. Bravo is just particularly stubborn I suppose. *Either that or he's trying to tell me something.*





 he is not trying to tell you anything I believe he is playing on your emotions and tags at your heartstrings ... and you are falling for it 

Trust me it happened to me too, seeing those sad soulful eyes looking at me after I put the food down.. and my saying tough, eat your din din and walking away, coming back after 30 min. taking the dish and putting it in the fridge.

You have only done this for one week.. Dont believe it is enough.. Try for 2 weeks and see what happens I am sure he will start to eat and dont give in.. It is what worked for me but others here have wonderful suggestions. whatever will work for you is what I would do. 

But remember NO dog will starve themselves, he will eventually eat if he knows he does NOT have your number


----------



## ArmyWife

You think I should ignore my vet? He told me BravO needs to be eating more. I've been using the same vet for three years and I trust him. When I say he didnt eat at all for a week, I mean it. He's only 13 weeks old. There's no way that's healthy. I'm gking to give this a shot. If you read my other posts, it was something I was considering anyway.


----------



## whitepoodles

If in fact he starved himself for 2 weeks this is really not the norm. If the nuggets work for you inspite of being expensive at this point in time Iwill give him whatever he wants or feels like eating. Maybe start him on raw or cooked food since he seems to like human food better than dog food. Anything now will help.
He is a growing pup and if he refuses to eat for 2 weeks something is wrong there and so I would give him practically anything now.. 

I was not aware he refused for for TWO full weeks wow, in this case ofcourse give him anything which will make him happy. Then see what you want to do

Dont ignore your vet. IF your vet says he is skinny then he is skinny.

When you can count each and every rib and when you do not feel that nice hafty sheath over the rib cage of your dog and his bones are sticking out at the touch of your fingers on them.. he is underweight.


----------



## ArmyWife

Yea, that description is bravo to a fault. He never gets human food, either, so I think he just knows the kibble isn't right for him. He gets freeze dried liver as a treat during our training sessions, but I use tiny tiny tiny pieces about the size of a pea, and his variability on treat rewards once a behavior is learned is awesome, so we alternate verbal praise and throwing his tiny kong tennis ball as a reward. When I tell you I almost cried this morning watching him eat I am not kidding at all. I thawed another nugget for him to work on in his crate, and at work I am going to return all that wet food I bought. 

I'm broke, and it's expensive, and my family is going to tell me I'm obsessed, but the bottom line is that I don't have kids, and if I have to cut back my own grocery list to make sure he's healthy than darn it that's what I am going tO do. I can recycle clothes and tell Hubby I don't want that new pocketbook for summer. We can skip a movie or two. I'm sure Hubby would rather me finally play video games with him, anyway. 

Bravo is everything I wanted in a dog. He's loving, funny, and even though he loves everyOne he meets, he still acts like I'm his mommy. I'm a trainer. I'm not the type of person to give in to a prissy pooch. But he's not prissy. The few times he did eat kibble he'd throw up the next day. I think it just doesnt agree with him. Maybe he knew if he ate it he'd feel sick. Maybe he's smarter than I am. I'm hoping this works. But he ate like he was starving and looked at me like he was proud I finally figured something out. Maybe the marrow bones he's been getting once a week gave him an idea of what real food is! 

Bottom line? HE ATE! I'm setting up a vet appointment for two weeks from now, to check his progress. When i filled my vet (becoming a close friend now, lol. He calls to check in ) in on the breakfast success he cheered into the phone. He told me to feed him only a tiny bit extra no matter how tempted I am, or risk upsetting his system or encouraging an inappropriate growth spurt and damaging his joints. 

If I can find a mini freezer cheap I migt try my own raw diet, but living with my parents, which is a must if we want to continue going to college, I simply don't have the freezer space to stock up on supplies. 

Whitepoodles, do you know if giving him a chicken wing / neck as a treat once in a while would be bad? Hes been getting raw meaty bones since I got him a month ago, since they seemed to really help with teething, and I'm sure he'd like the variety! Also, does anyone know if I'm supposed to alternate protein sources? Like, buy two bags and alternate lamb and duck? There's a ton of conflicting literature.


----------



## whitepoodles

May I ask you HAVE YOU CONTACTED the breeder to tell her of this problem and find out if this type of behavior is in his other litter mates.

Your breeder should be your primary source of information in regards to the eating habits of her dogs/puppies, UNLESS you purchased your pup from a BYB or a fly by night breeder, she/her should be able to answer your questions and also enlighten you regarding her lineage's tendency re: food and preference to what type of food.

It is crucial that you speak to the breeder of your dog IF you have any means of communication with her, if not, than it was the wrong breeder to purchase your pup from to begin with , but if your breeder sold you this puppy asking you to communicate good and bad to her/him than do it.. You may find some answers to your questions.

I cant tell you what to do, your puppy is not the norm to literally starve himself for a whole 2 weeks, this is absolutely not normal.

If at this stage of the game when he is a developing puppy he lacks nutrition it can cost him later on in life and his health may be affected.

ALSO check to see if the lower canines are not digging into his palate.. Sometimes when pups are teething and the lower canines protrude out of the gum the mouth as well as the glands are sensitive and can cause a temporary refusal to eat.. In this case you can wet his food with hot water wait for it to be musch and then can some into the mashed kibble and serve it to him.

I would also suggest that IF you find nothing wrong with canines digging into the palate and he seems to refuse to eat just because, take him to the vet and run a battery of liver, kidney function, and WBC just to make sure he is all right and all levels are within normal limits.

Have you checked him for WORMS.. Many times puppies will not eat and if they do they will eat but the worms will get the majority of the nutrients if he has a heavy infestation of worms.. 

Take his stool to the vet and do a total stool flotation analysis and also for Coccidia.

Is his stool firm or mushy and soft?

You must cover all angels and check everything that may be related to his lack of apetite or acceptance of kibble before anything else, but I agree you do not want to let him starve himself (which is so bizare) so yes, I would give him at this point ANYthing he wants to eat and chicken wins (raw) are the best part of the chicken when you feed him RMB.

Dont want what else to tell you but you should do a total blood chemistry and the aforementioned lab tests on him to rule out any condition if at all.

Good luck.


----------



## fjm

I actually save money feeding mine raw etc - and I would even at UK supermarket prices, which are considerably higher than the US. If you can clear even half a freezer drawer so that you can but a couple of largish bags at a time it becomes worth shopping around a bit to find the best buys. And that look on their faces when they go from picking at kibble to really looking forward to every meal is frankly well worth the trouble. I'm sure I would eat cardboard if I were hungry enough - I'd prefer not to be pushed to that point, though!


----------



## ArmyWife

Whitepoodles, thank you for putting so much thought into this. Unfortunately his breeder said her poodles are picky as well and only eat natural balance. I've already told her I don't want her to exchange him. As if that was an option. I did tell her he had a cough but that went away two weeks ago and I'm guessing it was a tiny bit of kennel cough, although it was faint and scarce. My breeder is a friend's mom, who's AKC inspected and rarely has litters. I was blessed that she had a reserve cancellation on a Pup and took pity on my situation with Kovu (I can't afford a 1,500 puppy and she gave me a huge break.)

My cousin is a vet so he's already had a full blood CDC workup, and complete exam by her. She's just too far away to go to regularly ( but that workup was favor because I was so scarred from Kovu.) I know he's parasite/worm free and his poops have been closely inspected. They're firm and normal with no tape rice segments or anything. Although theyre tiny from the lack of food. The only physical abnormalities we noted were dry skin and his occasional morning vomit, but the vet said that's most likely from him not eating. His kidney levels are fine and his lungs/heart/kidneys were fine.


----------



## whitepoodles

Armywife:

I never heard of a poodle especially a puppy starving themselves for 2 weeks. If this is the case and all blood count and other tests are normal, then you trully have no other option but to cater to your dog as he is one of the most finniky dogs I have ever heard of.

Just either cook for him or keep him on the nuggest as you did before successfully but balance his meals, bone meal, vitamines, offal veggies (3 times per week... green leaf for folic acid, must juice as they cant break cellulose and need the green leaf ground or juiced). 
A good book for u to purchase if u want to start raw feeding is by Dr. Ian Billinhurst, or Dr. Pitcairne, or K. Schutz... and good luck.


Choc.millie (CM) knows alot about raw feeding so you may want to ask her.


----------



## outwest

Geneva77 said:


> I don't know about raw feeding but my pup just ate a raw banana. .


:act-up: ROFL

Okay, I am going to have to try that. I have given my pup just about everything, but I confess, I have never given her a banana. What I want to know is if your puppy squished it all over the place. 

I am glad your puppy finally ate something. I agree with whitepoodles that this is not a normal behavior. Something is odd, but if you think you have figured out what the problem is, great! I, on the other hand, have a chow hound. I will need to watch her or she will pig out and get chubby. I was actually concerned about her voracious appetite and had her checked for worms twice (negative). After reading about your tremendous ordeal to get your puppy to eat, I guess I should feel blessed instead. 

Good luck!


----------



## fjm

The most expensive food is the one you throw away uneaten! If you have found a balanced food he likes, go for it.


----------



## JE-UK

Success! I say, if it works, stick with it. I honestly don't and can't believe that dogs starve themselves in order to manipulate us, or manage us, or annoy us, or whatever.

If the dog isn't eating, then either the dog is ill or the dog finds the food unappealing. Full stop. 

There are parallels in people. I'm of the "eat anything that isn't moving (too fast)" persuasion, but my brother is of the "there are only five acceptable foods on the planet" group. It just is what it is. We were reared the same. My mother tried the "you will sit at the table until you finish that", and it failed miserably to convince my brother that the item (whatever it was) was edible.


----------



## fjm

I agree, JE - especially when the dog in question is a young pup. I remember being forced to sit at a table at school, trying to force down tepid milk (which gave me an upset stomach), and chunks of fatty gristle that were called stew and made me feel sick ... Ugh!

I suspect there are dogs that have discovered that refusing a meal leads to the offer of something more interesting - but perhaps it is in part our fault for subscribing to the theory that one dry kibble is all a dog needs to eat, ever. I've found that if the first offering is sufficiently interesting, it gets eaten in short order!


----------



## ArmyWife

Wow guys, you're all awesome. I appreciate the encouraging replies. Last night he inhaled his dinner so fast he fell asleep and looked like my dad after thanksgiving dinner. I am thrilled. This morning I got smart and packed his serving into two puppy kongs so he wouldn't eat so fast. I've always wanted a dog I could feed from a kong while I shower and get ready for the morning, and god was it awesome. Took him about 15 minutes to empty one, then another 30 to empty the other, because I blocked it with a piece of freeze dried liver. Ms

Thus far his poop was runny when I stupidly mixed raw into the kibble. Then I read about mixing the two. So I put a teaspoon of plain pumpkin in a kong and hes been fine since the cold turkey switch. He's working on a marrow bone right now. He's not a real chewer so I don't really worry about his teeth on the tough bone. Now, would you guys hate me if I asked another question? 

I'm going to start feeding my own raw diet with primal as a staple to keep him balanced while I figure things out. I got a pack of chicken wings and I cant wait to see if he takes to it. Now. Would a chicken wing and one primal nugget (instead of 3) be a good dinner? What else would make it complete? Tuesday I'm going to talk to some butchers but they were closed today.


----------



## JE-UK

Hurrah! I love giving my dog food he enjoys ... the "happy dance" at dinner time is always entertaining. Sounds like you have turned a corner, foodwise.

If he's too thin at the moment, I wouldn't worry about overfeeding yet, just about spreading the meals out through the day.


----------



## JE-UK

fjm said:


> ... but perhaps it is in part our fault for subscribing to the theory that one dry kibble is all a dog needs to eat, ever. I've found that if the first offering is sufficiently interesting, it gets eaten in short order!


Agreed. I have never thought plain kibble was very interesting. If Vasco turns up his nose at dinner, he's seriously ill :smile:.


----------



## fjm

ArmyWife said:


> I'm going to start feeding my own raw diet with primal as a staple to keep him balanced while I figure things out. I got a pack of chicken wings and I cant wait to see if he takes to it. Now. Would a chicken wing and one primal nugget (instead of 3) be a good dinner? What else would make it complete? Tuesday I'm going to talk to some butchers but they were closed today.


If you weigh the nuggets, and weigh the chicken wing, it will give you a good idea of the equivalence. I too would be feeding him up a bit for a week or so!


----------



## ArmyWife

Oh my goodness. Little monster is stressing me out! He loves his primal but dOesnt quite get the chicken wing. I even cut it up and held it for him, and he just licked it. Then I followed some bloggers advice and put some primal inside it and he just licked that out. I'm not going to fast him for a day so I guess that I'm going to have to introduce those later and stick with lamb. My boy has some expensive taste! I just picked up some ground lamb. Since I can't afford to feed more primal, I'm going to just add this instead. My vet told me to pick up "the missing link" and add half a teaspoon to his morning meal every day, then when he's a good weight only use a teaspoon every 3 days. Luckily for me I work at petco so i get a discount or I'd have to become an adult entertainer or something of that nature just to feed this dog. 

Ingredients: flaxseed, rice bran, primary dried yeast, cane molasses, sunflower seed, freeze dried beef liver, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried carrot, ground beef bone, dried fish solicits, ground barley grass, dried kelp, freeze dried oyster, etc.

Those all seem valid and useful, and upon searching around the Internet I found out a lot of raw feeders actually do use this as a "safe supplement," even those who warn about the dangers of supplementing. Hopefully it works. 

On the bright side: bravo went swimming for the first time today and loved it! My husband always wanted a water dog, so this was a huge thing for us - I know he's having trouble bOnding with the new puppy after losing Kovu so abruptly, and this is the first time he's actually bragged about Bravo. I'm very happy! He now dives in from the side of the pool, and paddles over to my husband for a rest, then paddles over to the stairs to get out.


----------



## ArmyWife

Oh my goodness. Little monster is stressing me out! He loves his primal but dOesnt quite get the chicken wing. I even cut it up and held it for him, and he just licked it. Then I followed some bloggers advice and put some primal inside it and he just licked that out. I'm not going to fast him for a day so I guess that I'm going to have to introduce those later and stick with lamb. My boy has some expensive taste! I just picked up some ground lamb. Since I can't afford to feed more primal, I'm going to just add this instead. My vet told me to pick up "the missing link" and add half a teaspoon to his morning meal every day, then when he's a good weight only use a teaspoon every 3 days. Luckily for me I work at petco so i get a discount or I'd have to become an adult entertainer or something of that nature just to feed this dog. 


Edit- he ate the chicken wing! I tried one last time and he had a blast with it! He had about 3/4ths of it before he got tired, including the huge bone knuckle part! So, then I gave him a nugget and a half of primal with an equal amount Of ground lamb, some salmon oil and a half a teaspoon of the supplement. What a happy puppy! I pre mixed food for the next three days and packed a small kong for him for tonight. If he wants to eat, I'll let him eat! Tomorrow im going to do some math- I'm probably going to end up raw feeding with primal as a base staple.  maybe some day I won't use it at all!
Ingredients: flaxseed, rice bran, primary dried yeast, cane molasses, sunflower seed, freeze dried beef liver, dehydrated alfalfa meal, dried carrot, ground beef bone, dried fish solicits, ground barley grass, dried kelp, freeze dried oyster, etc.

Those all seem valid and useful, and upon searching around the Internet I found out a lot of raw feeders actually do use this as a "safe supplement," even those who warn about the dangers of supplementing. Hopefully it works. 

On the bright side: bravo went swimming for the first time today and loved it! My husband always wanted a water dog, so this was a huge thing for us - I know he's having trouble bOnding with the new puppy after losing Kovu so abruptly, and this is the first time he's actually bragged about Bravo. I'm very happy! He now dives in from the side of the pool, and paddles over to my husband for a rest, then paddles over to the stairs to get out.


----------



## fjm

Ah well - looks like barbecued chicken wings for _your_ supper! Perhaps introduce him to the idea gradually, with chunks of boneless meat, then the bone in. Ground eggshell is an easy calcium source if you continue to feed boneless meat - one eggshell per pound of meat (although I note there is a little ground bone in the supplement you are using).

Glad you are all bonding, and having fun!


----------



## ArmyWife

I love the eggshell idea! It's going to be much easier to bring egg with me when we travel than a whole bag of chicken wings! He does get raw egg once or twice a week already, but never in the shell. I appreciate the response!


----------



## ArmyWife

So I've been finding a lot of anti raw articles that are scaring me a little. Do you think that feeding him the 1/2 primal 1/2 lamb mixture is ok? This morning I added a raw egg, tonight he had some salmOn oil and yogurt, both times with the supplement - he also had some of a chicken wing but he's nOt so crazy about it. I'm just scared I'm going to do something wrong, I guess. When/how should I go about adding liver? Is there anything else I should do/change? Thanks guys!


----------



## CharismaticMillie

ArmyWife said:


> So I've been finding a lot of anti raw articles that are scaring me a little. Do you think that feeding him the 1/2 primal 1/2 lamb mixture is ok? This morning I added a raw egg, tonight he had some salmOn oil and yogurt, both times with the supplement - he also had some of a chicken wing but he's nOt so crazy about it. I'm just scared I'm going to do something wrong, I guess. When/how should I go about adding liver? Is there anything else I should do/change? Thanks guys!


Don't let anti-raw articles scare you. The only problems with a raw diet lie in user error. Anyway, 1/2 primal 1/2 lamb mixture should be fine. The thing that would personally confuse me is making sure it's balanced. See, I feed a homemade diet and I balance it myself - the meat, the bone and the organ. Sometimes I do feed some primal if I have it around, but I always get confused about how that "pre-balanced" food ties in with my balanced homemade diet. Does this make any sense? I have always heard that a balanced diet can be supplemented by 30%. So, I always take that to mean that I need to feed 70% balanced (whether it be homemade/balanced by the diet plan I am following OR balance premade) and then 30% extras. 

I just confused myself. LOL.


What if you did like 70% primal, 30% lamb? Still attempting those RMBs sometimes? Maybe a _little_ piece of liver way down the road ONLY if given with a RMB (for stool control). Maybe adding in some heart too?

What about going all homemade or all primal? Or just follow the advice above, ha.  Lucky pup you have, either way, to be eating such an appropriate diet. 

ETA:

Just went back and read the rest of the thread. So you are considering going homemade fully after you get more comfortable with the diet? If that is the case, I even think that 50/50 or 70/30 or whatever will be just fine because it would take a little while for any imbalances to occur.


----------



## fjm

I also read a lot of anti-raw stories when I researched it - they seemed to fall into three camps: (A) people who fed meat without any calcium source or organ meat for very long periods, and then found their dog did not thrive, (B) people who fed nothing but bones, and had to rush their dog to the vet with an impaction, and (C) vets/experts who discouraged it because of (A) and (B). 

The basic rules are very simple: 
Meat must be balanced with calcium, which comes either from bone (approximately one meaty bone meal to two meat only meals), or from another source such as eggshell (one eggshell - a teaspoonful when ground - to a pound of meat). A lot of bone leads to very dry, crumbly stools. Much too much bone can cause an impaction of the gut. 

A small quantity of organ meat (heart, liver, kidney) is also needed every week or so - but can lead to loose stools, so needs to be introduced gradually. (I've found liver cake treats a good way of feeding liver without problems.)

Green tripe (the stuff sold for animals, not the bleached stuff) is pretty well balanced in itself - most dogs love it, most humans hate it.

Introducing one protein source (chicken, then lamb, then beef, for example) is often recommended to identify any issues, but is not essential. You should aim for variety over time.

Vegetables and fruit are an optional extra - some people swear they are needed, others that they are not. Avoid grapes and raisins, onion and large quantities of garlic. And if your dog is like Sophy, avoid cherries too - it's taken three days to get her tummy right again!

Now you see why poop is one of the main topics of coversation amongst raw feeders!


----------



## CT Girl

Have you tried turkey neck? If he does not like chicken wings that may be another option till he gets use to bones.


----------



## ArmyWife

What would I do without you guys? Ugh. Ok so I am planning on going and speaking to a butcher today about picking up some supplies; a girl I work with feeds raw as well and she said that they are dog friendly. After a butcher laughed in my face a few days ago and told me to go out and party and feed purina like a "Normal 21 year old" I am being quite reserved with who i give my money too. I also did some math and did some shopping' and now I have a scale and tupperware to divide his meals out into for the week. Yeah, he seems to not enjoy bone at all. I'lll try the neck idea - but what do I do? Walk into the butcher and ask him for turkey necks? Lol. This is all so new and confusing!


----------

