# Called around to ask about vaccine protocols



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I had a similiar experience at one vet, yes they can refuse you service but I had to listen to how my pup could contract the flu/kennel cough by visiting the vet practice uh yeah my current vet would not allow me to set paw into their clinic when I thought my pup had it, I was told to stay outside until the appointment and could only carry my pup in. BTW the puppy didn't but I like that they were careful. 

I don't know if have one in your area but try finding a A.A.H.A. accredited vet clinic, they are top of the line.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

Very nice lead, twyla, thank you!

Is AAHA associated with AVMA? I read AVMA's core vaccination reccomendations are distemper + parvo +adno-2


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> I just called half a dozen DVM offices in my area and talked to each of the receptionists about their vaccination schedule.
> 
> Not one of them do Distemper + Parvo only.
> 
> ...


I also don't know any vet practices in my area that carry a Distemper + Parvo only vaccine. I purchase my own. Most vets carry DHPPV (Distemper + Hepatitis + Parainfluenza + Parvovirus) or DAPV (Distemper + Adenovirus + Parvovirus). All vets that I know do carry lepto free combo distemper and parvo vaccines. And just an FYI, a lot of vet techs will refer to their vaccine as a distemper vaccine or a distemper parvo vaccine when really it is a DHPPV or DAPV combo.

As far as the receptionist, it's time to find a new vet.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

They are supported by AMVA, and least at my local practice I have been able to only Vax for rabies, distemper and parvo though, I also vax against Lyme's Disease but that is a very personal choice for me, I kind of chuckle because I am told I don't have to every year I do.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I was told at my vet that while they can separate out the Lepto from the other vaccinations, the vaccine they buy in bulk does not separate out Parvo & Distemper from the other 2 vaccines. So basically they give a 4-in-1 vaccine.

It is possible to get a Parvo vaccine and a Distemper vaccine, but it is simply not cost effective for the vet to order these in large quantities when it is rare that a customer requests it. They told me I could buy it myself if I wanted and they would give the shot for me.

When a disease can be transmitted from an animal to a person, that disease is called zoonotic. Lepto is one of those diseases and that is why vets try to vaccinate for this disease so often.

My vets are willing to do titers after the first-year booster for Distemper and Parvo, so that is good. 

So the number of vets willing to order single doses of Parvo and Distemper only vaccines would be very very small.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

DPV (Distemper + Parvovirus) can be purchased in cases of 25 vaccines. Nobivac DPV. I buy these for my puppies. You can also buy single doses of distemper only and parvo only vaccines. Neovac D and Neopar.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I just want to say, the rude receptionist was not my DVM's office.
That lady started getting agitated when I asked her about titers, then got almost belligerent in tone at the end when she informed me about refusal of service. She rattled me.


That said, my DVM does vaccinate against EVERYTHING.
I hate to vet hop, though, and he has all the records on my cats.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> DPV (Distemper + Parvovirus) can be purchased in cases of 25 vaccines. Nobivac DPV. I buy these for my puppies. You can also buy single doses of distemper only and parvo only vaccines. Neovac D and Neopar.


Then my vets do not buy multiple doses of DPV (Distemper + Parvovirus) because, again, they do not get enough of a request from their customers and they personally see nothing wrong with the 5-in-1 and 4-in-1 vaccines. Since they are willing to vaccinate according to my request usually, we can work together in a very positive fashion.

I think what is really important is finding an open-minded vet who treats you and your pets well and has a friendly supportive staff. I had to shop around to 5 different vets before I found the one I am at now.

BTW, when I found this vet, I had a dog with many medical problems. I asked my previous vet to print out his medical records and I took that with me to my new vet. So it is not hard to transfer to a new vet and bring a copy of your pet's records with you.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> I just want to say, the rude receptionist was not my DVM's office.
> That lady started getting agitated when I asked her about titers, then got almost belligerent in tone at the end when she informed me about refusal of service. She rattled me.
> 
> 
> ...


Ahhh, I gotcha.

Well, I wouldn't ditch your vet just because he vaccinates for everything if he's willing to work with you and your desire to vaccinate more selectively.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

My vet recommends against Lepto in most cases, and considers Bordatella to be a lifestyle vaccine. They do not have Distemper/Parvo alone, though so I would have to order it any bring it myself. They only order DHPP. 

Also, while I haven't done much vet shopping (there is only one good clinic in my area), I have had to do some shopping for a human Dr. I found that it is hard to get info from receptionists sometimes. They don't always know what the doctor (or vet) will or will not be comfortable with, especially if it is something that is outside the norm. Sometimes you get a different answer if you talk to the actual doctor, but of course then you generally need an appointment which costs money.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

FireStorm said:


> Sometimes you get a different answer if you talk to the actual doctor, but of course then you generally need an appointment which costs money.


Also, I'm imagining how awkward it'd be to book an appointment with the vet and still not being able to agree on the issue of minimal vaccines.
eek!

Anyways, I found two AAHA accredited DVMs. They both had really nice websites with contact submissions. Being able to write out my vax concerns was nice. One of them replied to say they'd forward my message to their team of doctors. So that sounds promising.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

poofs said:


> Also, I'm imagining how awkward it'd be to book an appointment with the vet and still not being able to agree on the issue of minimal vaccines.
> eek!
> 
> Anyways, I found two AAHA accredited DVMs. They both had really nice websites with contact submissions. Being able to write out my vax concerns was nice. One of them replied to say they'd forward my message to their team of doctors. So that sounds promising.


Well, when I was dealing with human doctors, I just told the receptionist I wanted to book an appointment to meet with the doctor, have basically a consult, and figure out if the doctor was right for me. I still had to pay for a visit, but for me it was worth it. They knew up front that the appointment wasn't to have anything done. 

If I was looking for a vet before I got my puppy, I would have called the office I was considering, and explained that I was getting a puppy and was looking for a vet and would like to make an appointment to meet the vet, discuss vaccine recommendations, etc before I brought the puppy home. Of course, if they do have online contact forms that might be easier, but some vets don't have that option.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I am wondering where Petplan keeps all the conditions of their health insurance. I can't find it or if I need to send in paperwork of vaccines , etc.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> I am wondering where Petplan keeps all the conditions of their health insurance. I can't find it or if I need to send in paperwork of vaccines , etc.



Here are all the terms and conditions.
http://www.gopetplan.com/terms-and-conditions-explained
The important things to remember are, make sure that your dog is seen by the vet and a full check-up documented within two weeks of signing up and once a year after that. Make sure that the Vet documents that the hips and knees are without any issues so that there is no waiting period for the joints to be covered. And make sure that anything that the vet documents that they recommend is done or any repercussions won't be covered. For example if the Vet documents that the dog needs a dental cleaning and it isn't done, then Petplan won't cover an extraction 3 months later. Or if the vet recommends bordatella, and you refuse, then if your dog gets kennel cough, Petplan won't cover it. 
Or in a case that I saw somebody complain about on Facebook, some bodies dog was diagnosed with Lyme disease, and they could not provide evidence that the dog was on preventative because they didn't buy it from the vet. 

And my best advice is, always remember that what the Vet documents is taken as absolute fact - I always get a copy of the Vet's notes before I leave the office, and go over them for any errors, anything that doesn't read clearly, or is incongruent with what we discussed, and ask them to change it. You wouldn't believe the things that I have caught - from writing my multiple dogs info on the wrong chart, to leaving computer generated info that did not at all apply to my dog in the note! Once I brought Teaka In about one issue, and the Vet's entire note was about something that had resolved months earlier, with only 3 words about the reason that I had brought her in! I said oh no, you have to take the old thing out of your note, that's not why I brought her here, that's not what we discussed,and you are going to cost me an extra $200 deductible your note. Other times I have to ask them to add the over the counter things that they recommend to their notes - it seems like if something isn't prescription, they don't bother to document it, but Petplan is not going to pay for it unless they write it down!
The documentation is everything! Yes, if the Vet makes an error, Petplan will accept if the Vet writes a note explaining it, but you know it isn't always easy to get your Vet to co-operate with that, it is just so much easier to make sure that it is good in the first place!


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

Welp, this is the response from one of the DVMs. Everything except Adeno/Hep. I bet there's not many vets who follow Dr. Dodds' clinical studies in my area.

It looks like they carry Distemper + Parvo only vaccine.
No mention of titers.






> Our vaccine policy for puppies is as follows:
> 6 weeks:
> · Exam
> · 1st Deworming
> ...


Some parts left out that weren't important, and included names.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

These DVMs also have a reputation to uphold, responsible vets who follow established guidelines.

Is it realistic of me to ask them to break code just because I'm a high end pet owner?

It's a lot to think about...


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Have you asked your current vet if they'd be willing to follow the protocol you want even though it isn't what they normally recommend if you ordered the non combo vaccines yourself? It may be easier to get your vet to work with you than it is to find a vet that does Dr. Dodds' protocol for all their clients (since I'm betting most pet owners have never heard of Dr. Dodds and are perfectly fine with more traditional vaccination schedules).


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

No, I haven't talked to the actual doctor about it yet.

At this point I'm thinking I wont change vets. I'll talk to him about it, and then just go with what he recommends.

I really like him, he's super nice. He breeds and shows Persian cats, and is a judge for CFA (cat version of AKC). He's got all kinds of CFA awards displayed in the lobby, some dated over 20 years ago. He doesn't give my cats rabies shots, they're indoor, show no interest in escaping outside.

I like to think that since he is involved with CFA, and breeds, that he keeps up with current thought. But, I don't know for sure.

He probably is my best bet.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

The only vaccine they have "control" over is the rabies as it is required by law. The rest are up to you as far as what and how often. They can't make you give anything that you don't want.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I agree there are probably not too many vets that follow Dr. Dodds. So you need to decide what vaccinations you want done, and go to a vet that will help you.

If you simply accept what a vet recommends, you might have to watch your dog have a violent reaction to a vaccine like mine did to Lepto many years ago. That is when I decided not to just take the advice of my vet if I felt the vaccine was too risky.

Dakota has never gotten or will get the Lepto vaccine but he will get his one year 4-in-1 booster as my vet recommend because I have Petplan and feel the risk is minimal. We will do Parvo/Distemper titers in the future. My vet is working to my request, not demanding I do exactly what she tells me.

As someone else mentioned, only Rabies is required by law. Other than that, no vet can demand you give a certain vaccine.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I think that one should trust their vet. And have a relationship where you can discuss things .


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

seminolewind said:


> I think that one should trust their vet. And have a relationship where you can discuss things .


I agree you should have a vet you can discuss things with and you have a good amount of trust in, but I do not blindly follow my vet, especially when it comes to vaccinations. If I did excactly what they recommended then I would not be titering now.

I educate myself and then discuss things over with the vet until we have a plan of action.

My vet also educates me. So it is a two way street as long as you have an open minded vet.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Wow. My vet will vaccinate as I ask. I was very adamant that my girls do not get lepto. There is a vaccine with just distemper/parvo. I get them titered. Last year Callie's distemper immunity was low, so this year she had to get a booster.
They always ask if I want bordatella and one other (no idea what it is) and I refuse. I don't board them, and I don't send them to a groomer. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I have read, dogs can still catch kennel cough, etc even if they have had the shot. And, if they do get sick, they can be treated as it is not a serious illness unless neglected.)
I got them the Lyme disease shot (even though I hate to do it, and I know it doesn't always prevent it) simply because the risk is so high in NY with the warm winter we had. Molly got a tick in the snow! She had to go through a course of 3 weeks of antibiotics which affected her appetite and energy level.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> It looks like they carry Distemper + Parvo only vaccine.
> No mention of titers.


I highly doubt they carry the distemper + parvo only vaccine. I think I mentioned this earlier, but most vet offices refer to DHPP or DAPP as a distemper + parvo vaccine (even though it also contains adenovirus/hepatitis and parainfluenza).

That vaccine protocol that your vet office follows would be a definite "no go" for me and I would be telling them the protocol that we would be following. Actually, that policy would likely have me going to a different vet, as I generally prefer to stick with vets who have at least a somewhat reasonable vaccine protocol. And a combo vaccine at 6 weeks plus bordetella is actually quite frightening. As is the lepto series. As is the THREE BORDETELLA VACCINES!?!?! That is appalling.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> These DVMs also have a reputation to uphold, responsible vets who follow established guidelines.
> 
> Is it realistic of me to ask them to break code just because I'm a high end pet owner?
> 
> It's a lot to think about...


You are a _well educated _pet owner and..yes..it is realistic for you to advocate for your pet by telling your vet what vaccine protocol is acceptable and what is not. And...it's actually, really not at all unusual for well educated pet owners to do just that.

Vaccination is important. It protects our dogs from otherwise preventable disease. But overvaccinating has the potential to be harmful and it is up to us to make sure our dogs are protected yet not overvaccinated (which almost all dogs would be if followed most vet practice protocols). I used a holistic/integrative vet for may years because I was sick of being pressured (mostly by the receptionists but sometimes from the vets) at the traditional vet offices in my area. Finally I found a large and well known vet group who also has reproductive specialists who happily follows my protocol and who recommends one not too far off (8, 12, 16 for puppy shots, revaccinate every 3 years or happy to titer if requested), rabies every 3 years, bordetella only if requested, no lepto, and writes waivers so my dogs can attend obedience classes without the canine influenza vaccine).


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I highly doubt they carry the distemper + parvo only vaccine. I think I mentioned this earlier, but most vet offices refer to DHPP or DAPP as a distemper + parvo vaccine (even though it also contains adenovirus/hepatitis and parainfluenza).


Your comments were definitely running through my head when I was looking over that protocol!



CharismaticMillie said:


> That vaccine protocol that your vet office follows would be a definite "no go" for me and I would be telling them the protocol that we would be following. Actually, that policy would likely have me going to a different vet, as I generally prefer to stick with vets who have at least a somewhat reasonable vaccine protocol. And a combo vaccine at 6 weeks plus bordetella is actually quite frightening. As is the lepto series. As is the THREE BORDETELLA VACCINES!?!?! That is appalling.


Riiight!?! When I got that reply from the DVM office I was blown away!

Oh, and when they say lepto is prevalent in our area. I don't know if they know what they are talking about.

Look at this chart of reported cases of Lepto in humans I found at DHH.org
(Parish is Louisiana's version of County. Region 6-8 are my surrounding Parishes, the rest of the Parishes look about the same, the most cases were in the New Orleans area down south)
I couldn't find anything more current.









[/IMG]


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The problem with the lepto vaccine is that it only covers some of many serovars. It is a bacterin vaccine and doesn't produce long term immunity, so the vaccine has to be repeated at least annually, and it has a particularly high rate of adverse reaction. For me, the benefits don't outweigh the risks and I choose to not have my dogs vaccinated for lepto and just be aware of what lepto symptoms are so that prompt action could be taken.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Millie. Sounds like my vet (large practice, 6-8 vets) They communicate with Cornell Vet school when needed. They are very willing to do whatever I request, never push anything but send an e-mail reminder of parvo/distemper or titers, heartworm and Lyme titers, stool and of course rabies. They happily do titers instead of the shots if I request. The receptionist might suggest or ask about bordetella but don't insist, especially if one doesn't board or take dogs to a grooming salon. My girls each have their own vet from puppyhood, and we have a good relationship. I'm so lucky.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

And then the "What ifs" creep in...
What if my niece, nephews, grandmother happen to contract lepto, possibly die, and it could have been prevented if I had only vaccinated my dog.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> And then the "What ifs" creep in...
> What if my niece, nephews, grandmother happen to contract lepto, possibly die, and it could have been prevented if I had only vaccinated my dog.


http://mercola.fileburst.com/PDF/HealthyPets/JordanArticle.pdf


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> *Despite*the*vast*amount*of*money*spent*of*vaccine*research,*there*is*still*no*proof*that*vaccines*create
> immunity. *Vaccines*are*however,*proven*to*create*generations*of*immune*reaction*diseases*that*now*
> plague*highly*vaccinated*populations.**As*my*colleague*Dr.*Stephen*Blake*has*said*over*and*over,”*never*
> before*in*the*history*of*man*has*there*ever*been*a*greater*medical*assumption*more*responsible*for*
> the*death*and*disease*than*the*use*of*vaccines*as*we*know*them*today”.





> In*summary,*know*the*risks*for*natural*Leptospirosis*infection*and*seek*immediate*treatment*if*your*dog*
> becomes*ill.***Familiarize*yourself*with*the*symptoms*of*Leptospirosis*and*save*your*dog*from*the*risk*of*
> vaccine*induced*renal*failure*or*years*of*dermatitis*and*puritis.27 Antibiotic*treatment*is*quickly*effective*
> for*Leptospirosis,*29*or*the**use*of**homeopathy**in*prevention.**





> You*must*realize*however*that*the*germ*is*not*the*problem:**the*individual’s*immune*system*is*the*
> determinant.***Optimal*nutrition*is*the*key*to*immune*health*and*prior*genetic*damage*from*vaccines*is*
> also*of*consequence.** *In*regard*to*the*Leptospira*vaccine,*the*new*genetically*engineered*products*will*
> not*be*proven*any*safer*than*earlier*products.**They*will*unleash*this*vaccine*without*really*knowing*if*
> the*vaccine*is*safe*or effective,*just*as*they*have*for*all*the*vaccines*that*have*come*before.*


I agree with what's in that link. These parts I quoted are of particular interest. I wouldn't let a vet touch my dog with a lepto vaccine for all the tea in China. And these *repeated and over- abundant* vaccines are likely what's destroying many dogs' immune system.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

poofs said:


> And then the "What ifs" creep in...
> What if my niece, nephews, grandmother happen to contract lepto, possibly die, and it could have been prevented if I had only vaccinated my dog.


Lepto can be shed by BOTH Lepto vaccinated and Lepto unvaccinated dogs so this rationale does not make sense. More and more vets have come to the realization that the Lepto vaccine if not worth the risk. I will not vaccinate for Lepto it is simply not worth the risk.

This is a very informative article

SMOKE AND MIRRORS - Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

CT Girl said:


> Lepto can be shed by BOTH Lepto vaccinated and Lepto unvaccinated dogs so this rationale does not make sense. More and more vets have come to the realization that the Lepto vaccine if not worth the risk. I will not vaccinate for Lepto it is simply not worth the risk.
> 
> This is a very informative article
> 
> SMOKE AND MIRRORS - Dogs Naturally Magazine


I posted the same link just a few posts up.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I posted the same link just a few posts up.


Don't know how I missed your post. I guess she will know twice over now. :embarrassed:


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

When CM posted that link I knew I had read that before. I've read a few articles publish @ dogs naturally. They seem a bit more fringy than Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz.

For example, there was an article there talking about heartworm titers every 4 months in lieu of monthly pills. It wasn't written by a doctor.
Dr. Dodds recommends strict adherence to every 45 days.


(_EDIT: Found the link to that heartworm article_: http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dont-give-dogs-heartworm-meds-shouldnt-either/ )


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I do want to follow Dr. Dodds protocol, and I'm determined to do so. The only loose end I need to figure out, the exact vaccine policies of my AKC sanctioned obedience school.

I can board my dog with my Mom or MIL. I have confidence that I can learn to groom my own dog. But if I can't enroll in obedience school, that's gonna be a no go for me. That's the whole point of getting a dog, I want to get involved with these people, volunteer for their functions, I want this to be a hobby of mine. I've got two indoor cats, I want an outdoor dog to do doggie things with.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am sure it will be fine with your obedience school. I have never heard of one that requires a Lepto vaccine especially since they don't even last a year.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

poofs said:


> When CM posted that link I knew I had read that before. I've read a few articles publish @ dogs naturally. They seem a bit more fringy than Dr. Dodds and Dr. Schultz.
> 
> For example, there was an article there talking about heartworm titers every 4 months in lieu of monthly pills. It wasn't written by a doctor.
> Dr. Dodds recommends strict adherence to every 45 days.
> ...


Dogsnaturally definitely does post some fringy stuff that I don't always agree with. That's why I linked directly to that article that I posted that a veterinarian (who, from reading the article seems to be a very knowledgeable vet) wrote and that is backed by legitimate resources. 

There is a vaccine seminar by Dr. Schultz at PCA next week. I wish I was arriving a day earlier so I could attend!

http://www.abrl.org/files/vaccinesWDJ0808.pdf
http://www.puliclub.org/chf/akc2007conf/what everyone needs to know about canine vaccines.htm

Lepto is discussed in each of the above links - summaries of Schultz seminars. The ineffectiveness of the lepto vaccine is discussed as is the fact that lepto is shed into the environment from the urine of dogs who have been vaccinated. That second link is a really good read.


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## poofs (Jan 6, 2016)

I finally talked to my vet in person. He has no problem with DPV only and titers, but he did say that he highly recommends giving the adenovirus. I'm inclined to follow his advise, he is such a nice and kind person, I love this man!

I talked to a trainer at the AKC obedience school, too, and they wont accept my pup without parainfluenza and bordatella.

So, should I pass on the pup from the breeder who's health contract is void if I vaccinate for more than DPV? It seems a little untoward.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

You have to make the choice about this breeder. We do not know how much you want this puppy and what you are willing to do to get it. 

I was on the waiting list for a breeder who insisted all her puppy owners ONLY feed raw to her puppies. She was a very good breeder and I was considering it, but ultimately I did not want to be restricted to raw feeding even though I am sure it is healthy for the dog.

I do not think much of health contracts myself. If you want the pup, do not worry about voiding the contract. 

I think I might look around for another breeder to see what is out there. It took me 3 breeders to find one that I was comfortable buying a puppy.

I think your obedience school is also requiring too much.

Weigh all the factors and see how you feel.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Talk to the breeder. Tell her your situation and see if she will work with you on it. If not then you have to decide on the breeder or the obedience facility which is a hard decision either way.


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