# Some reasons people won't register with PHR



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

The term I've heard one breeder use in particular about PHR was that its a witch hunt...I personally do not agree with the database being coined that, I think some may use it to do that, but others understand that it ISN'T comprehensive...its just a tool (one of many poodle breeders are fortunate enough to have) to use to research reported illnesses behind the dog...

in all honesty I do not know why one would not want to report their illnesses on PHR, I think we're SOOOOOO fortunate as poodle owners to have a database like this. If I ever breed I would encourage my clients to report and post any health issue on PHR, but I'd reiterate to them that its just a SMALL window into a pedigree not a complete picture


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

My breeder told me it was a "witch hunt". I posted Rileys addisons and entropion results on there. I didnt really get alot of support in doing that. I think it is a Wonderfu tool, and if my posting can help to stop the diseases then I am Happy to help! I just wish more people would post. 

Does anyone know WHY a breeder cant post the results? What affect would it have on the owners? I think it should be open to both. What harm would it have if a breeder chose to post their own name/dogs on there? I am encouraged to see a breeder post/encourage an owner to post on there! It makes me respect the breeder all the more.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I'm applying logic here that could be applied elsewhere so please bear with me (and my lame examples). 

You know how people are hesitant to do something or take action because, A) Joan Smith and John Doe _aren_'t going to do it so why should I?, or B) I don't need to because Joan Smith or John Doe will and that'll be sufficient. 

It's like the time I was driving to work and came upon a hit & run (rottie mix) on the side of the road, injured and obviously in a lot of pain. Most people just sped by her, more concerned with getting to work and probably thinking, "Oh, someone else will stop." (Thankfully someone--me--did and she's all better and in a great home now.)

Or people are asked to sign a petition to support a controversial community by-law and they're thinking: "I'm not putting my neck out there because Joan won't and then I'll be blamed when it passes or will look stupid!" 

Does that make any sense? I hope so because I'm confusing myself and I wrote it. LOL


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

I am an advocate for PHR and I listed Gorky on the registry for Addison's and hip dysplasia. We hesitated initially because we had disagreements with our vets on how they handled several procedures with our Gorky eg giving two vaccines together, sedating him for x-rays and the emergency service connected with the practice. We had to bite our tongue until we had the report from the vet and her signature for the PHR form. We did let the vet know our concerns as well.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

I think all of the reasons stated above are true.

I also think that most pet owners have no clue about PHR.
I believe Darla said that she puts PHR info in her puppy packet. My hats off to her, that is something more breeders should do.

I think that there are breeders that are worried that the information showing a health issue will be used against them. Honestly, it could happen, but look at some of the Top Producers, some of the very popular Sires that are in almost so many pedigrees that are affected or have affected offspring (altho, it could be from the dam's side when offspring are affected). Didn't stop them from being used.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't see how this site could be abused if the health issue is true, if your dog is healthy, then it shouldn't show up, but if your dog has an issue it'll just aid other breeders on where to be weary at while researching pedigrees.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

You know, I think it also may come to the fact that many people don't think that their one dog is gonna matter in the BIG scheme of things.
Just like some people don't vote, cause they don't think their vote will count or matter.

And I think some people are well meaning and intend to do it, but just never follow through with the paperwork, OMD they have to get their vet to sign off on it. That could be just to much effort for the average pet owner, who doesn't really understand the wealth of information their own dog can add.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Gorky said:


> I am an advocate for PHR and I listed Gorky on the registry for Addison's and hip dysplasia. We hesitated initially because we had disagreements with our vets on how they handled several procedures with our Gorky eg giving two vaccines together, sedating him for x-rays and the emergency service connected with the practice. We had to bite our tongue until we had the report from the vet and her signature for the PHR form. We did let the vet know our concerns as well.


It was your thoughtful bravery in reporting dear Gorky's conditions that made me aware of PHR in the first place. Doing that, in the midst of your great sorrow, was a real tribute to Gorky _and _the breed. And as your reward: _Lichen!_ In addition, of course, to knowing you may have had a hand in preventing other poodles and their owners from needless suffering.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Does anyone know WHY a breeder cant post the results? What affect would it have on the owners? I think it should be open to both. What harm would it have if a breeder chose to post their own name/dogs on there? I am encouraged to see a breeder post/encourage an owner to post on there! It makes me respect the breeder all the more.


In most cases, veterinary reports are confidential with owner only access. To preserve the accuracy and integrity of PHR, veterinary confirmation of the health issue is required if it is an owner submission. There are health issues such as HD, SA picked up from OFA as that is an open database.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*having problems posting.. sorry if this is sent twice!*

Great input!

Here are a few more that I've noticed:

When people are grieving over a lost or ill animal, sometimes it's almost more than they can bear to put pen to paper and do it in black and white.

Good intentioned.. and they lose the paperwork!

Don't care.

Don't want "bad stuff" associated with their breeding program.

Some owners are threatened (not kidding!) by their breeders.


The "witch hunt" mentality concerns me. I've found several people,both breeders and owners who feel "threatened" by the information on PHR. Those people tend to be the folks who promote "witch hunt". When I see breeder's who are actually threatened enough by PHR to try to discredit it, it makes me ask WHY? Quite honestly, if I was in the market for a puppy, I'd run as fast as I could from any breeder who actively tries to discredit PHR. The sad thing is.. whatever it is that they are hiding.. well,maybe by utilizing PHR.. they could make better breeding choices and eliminate it from their bloodlines. PHR was designed with the best interests of poodles at heart. It is not,nor was it ever intended to be a witch hunt tool. Breeder's who truly have the long term well being of the breed as a priority do utilize it.

I have struggled with trying to get my own puppy people to register heatlh issues with PHR. It wasn't until recently that I added it to my contract. My Vic litter has seizure, bloat, SLO and AIHA affected offspring. In a couple of cases have even completed paperwork,minus the owner and vet's signatures,including pedigrees and envelopes with prepaid postage and still haven't had the owners submit them.


So now.. I have a BIG, huge question for consideration. How important is that one single health issue that doesn't get reported? The answer to that is.. it can make all the difference in the world. Not only that, what happens if... the owners of other affected dogs decided that since theirs was the only case that it wasn't worth listing?

Here's an actual example of non-reported health issues. To avoid uproar, I've tried to anonymize it a bit.. but it scares the tar out of me! Again, this is a TRUE pedigree.. with true health issues, I'm not making it up. 

Boyo (remember not the real name) is a well known, poodle with quite a few awards to his name. His dam, Momma is Addison's affected. His sire, Daddy-o died of bloat at a very young age. Daddy-o's death by bloat shouldn't have come as too much of a surprise, however because Daddy-o's sire, GrandPappy bloated at a very young age, was tacked, went on to get his CH. and has been bred a whole heck of a lot. Oops, Did I forget to mention that GrandMammy (on the sire's side) also died of bloat? Momma is also an aunt to a litter of pups having day blindness.

Now I don't know how the rest of the poodle world feels, but if I naively obtained a pup related to these lines thinking that these were healthy lines because these aren't on PHR, I would be a bit upset. 

The great news...(and simultaneously, tragic) is... Boyo is now neutered AND his sad owner has reported Boyo's bloat (anyone surprised that he bloated?) to PHR. So for people who are interested in that particular pedigree, there is now.. one lone, isolated reported bloat case, which doesn't begin to show the whole picture.

So now I ask..how important is that ONE individual case? Which non-reported case do we consider to be the "one"? Would that be Daddy-O, Momma, Grandpappy or Grandmammy? EACH and every health incident/issue is of critical significance to PHR.

One of the reasons the Vic pup owners give for not registering their health issues is: Dead end. All of those pups were sp/eutered as was Vic. But researchers utilize PHR in trying to determine modes of inheritance for health issues. Even though it's a "dead end"as far as ongoing breeding, there is a wealth of information there. If we could just "flesh out" the health information on pedigrees..our poodles would benefit so much from it!

So..my next question is.. what can we do to positively promote and encourage the use of PHR? How do we educate people about it? How do we change the mindset of those terrified "witch hunt" folks?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

bigpoodleperson said:


> My breeder told me it was a "witch hunt". I posted Rileys addisons and entropion results on there. I didnt really get alot of support in doing that. I think it is a Wonderfu tool, and if my posting can help to stop the diseases then I am Happy to help! I just wish more people would post.
> 
> Does anyone know WHY a breeder cant post the results? What affect would it have on the owners? I think it should be open to both. What harm would it have if a breeder chose to post their own name/dogs on there? I am encouraged to see a breeder post/encourage an owner to post on there! It makes me respect the breeder all the more.


From What I understand you have to have something verifiable from a vet to post. Correct me if I am wrong This ends the possibility of it becoming a "Witch"Hunt.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Well, I don't understand the "witch hunt" mentality. But I do know a lot of people feel that way.

A long time ago, on a different forum, a breeder posted something along the lines of: If one was serious about showing and owning a show dog, one would never, ever post to PHR as one would never again have access, whether by puppy or by breeding (stud services) to said show dogs. 

I was absolutely horrified! First, that she would post it.. as maybe.. just maybe.. it would make someone think twice about sending in a submission to PHR (that's been a while ago, I don't hesitate now to share that experience). I felt that rather then identifying a problem, she was perpetuating it. She then went on to say that she, herself would not submit to PHR. We call that.. the wall of silence. It makes me think twice about where I do my poodle shopping.. and again.. about priorities and motivators. Is it all about that next prize, that next ribbon.. or is it about our poodle's futures? Guess that answer depends on who's answering.

But as I really don't "get" the witch hunt thing regarding PHR.. open to any suggestions for dealing with it!

Just thought of another "excuse" I've heard/seen for not posting to PHR. Have come across this several times by several different people:

"I post all of my health issues on my website" or "I make my health issues publicly known". That may be, but how many people go to each and every website of every breeder in a dogs pedigree when they are planning a breeding or thinking of purchasing a pup? As for sharing publicly.. well.. sure hope that 1) the person that needs to know.. does and 2) that all the people who know continue to share and it doesn't become old news and 3) sigh.. too bad that information isn't there for researchers! If something is posted on PHR.. it's going to be there for a long time to come. Forget to pay your bill for your website and Poof! It's gone. When I hear this justification, I take it for what it is.. an excuse.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Just because I like to stir it a bit XD

On the flip side, do some breeders put too much emphasize on PHR? I've always been told its but ONE aspect of breeding poodles (and we're VERY VERY lucky to have it) but that the information there is usually never comprehensive, and should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Just because I like to stir it a bit XD
> 
> On the flip side, do some breeders put too much emphasize on PHR? I've always been told its but ONE aspect of breeding poodles (and we're VERY VERY lucky to have it) but that the information there is usually never comprehensive, and should be taken with a grain of salt.


*Quite true, it is only a tool, and it should only be one of many tools a breeder uses*.

If more people, pet owners and breeders alike, submitted the health testing to OFA and/or PHR, the database would be much more comprehensive.


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## Gorky (Jul 14, 2009)

If more and more individuals register for the PHR then it will be more comprehensive and surely even now it should not be taken with a grain of salt. Individuals who register are doing it with their heart and souls because of some condition their poodle is suffering from. There is a vet involved in it as well which gives it validity. If one is going to breed dogs it would be irresponsible to take anything as a grain of salt. There is no argument here it is an intelligent point of view. I find this comment an insult for all those people concerned who have registered with PHR.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Just because I like to stir it a bit XD
> 
> On the flip side, do some breeders put too much emphasize on PHR? I've always been told its but ONE aspect of breeding poodles (and we're VERY VERY lucky to have it) but that the information there is usually never comprehensive, and should be taken with a grain of salt.



Chuckling as I read this because... I'm sure everyone knows that I will rise to the bait. Ok, Bait taken.. here goes:

The information often isn't comprehensive, as I said... I'm estimating that less than 10% of all health issues are currently being reported to PHR. That's one of the reasons that I try to actively promote it. EVERY single health registration is significant in someway. I've mentioned bloat several times and my personal opinion is that there is a genetic predisposition. Others have other opinions.. including that it is random, non genetic. The PHR database is one of the biggest, best populated (even with the current level of reporting of health issues) pedigree dog database for any breed. That makes it a very inviting resource for researchers to utilize in their studies. I'm going to be super unrealistic here, but let's say we had 100% reporting on all bloat cases for 5 years.. how long do you think it would take to come up with facts, instead of just ideas, theories and opinions regarding bloat? As it is, with the health registrations trickling in slowly, it's going to take many years and have a bit more margin for error with that research. If ever anyone is passionate about not wanting to have our poodles with health issues,the very best thing one can do, the very best way to fight back (and sometimes, depending on the health issue) the only way to fight back.. is to get those registrations in.

I used a pretty dramatic "anonymized" bloat pedigree as an example of how important each and every case that is reported can be. Let's take that a bit further. Some of the offspring of the Grandmammy and Grandpappy were sold for some very nice prices. There are many of them in breeding homes.

If I'm looking at a pedigree and there is only one health issue reported... am I going to take that with a grain of salt? No way. That one health issue MAY be a fluke. It may truly be the one and only time that it occurs in a gazillion generations. But it is also a red flag and should be an alert to someone. Also, if there is only one case reported, let's say of Squamous Cell Carcinoma of the toe back a couple of generations and I'm breeding black poodles and am trying to breed away from squamous cell carcinoma.. that ONE case of SCC is going to be significant enough that I am going to look elsewhere for a stud. On the other hand, let's say that I have no SCC in my lines that I am aware of, but I do have some epilepsy back aways, I MAY consider the lines with the SCC back two generations if there is no epilepsy. BUT.. that's when the work begins. Phone calls, emails, all sorts of contacts made to try to find out what else may be lurking in those lines that haven't been reported. PHR is a starting place, an excellent starting place for breeders and it can save countless hours of research. Not to be taken with a grain of salt, but to be appreciated and considered fully, as a base or foundation for other health information to be added on.

Let's go back to that anonymized bloat pedigree that I posted earlier in this thread... if you were looking at that pedigree.. would you take that one reported case of bloat with a grain of salt, or as a red flag to look a bit harder?

The reported health issues that are on PHR should not be taken lightly. However, what should be taken with a grain of salt is those that AREN'T reported. 

Hope this post made sense!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Wouldn't it be awesome if... 

The registration of poodle health issues became the expected norm for poodle people? Kinda like health testing or whatever. No questions, no drama. Health issue happens and... the submission goes to PHR. How easy is that?

Each of us can help make that happen.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Chuckling as I read this because... I'm sure everyone knows that I will rise to the bait. Ok, Bait taken.. here goes:
> 
> The information often isn't comprehensive, as I said... I'm estimating that less than 10% of all health issues are currently being reported to PHR. That's one of the reasons that I try to actively promote it. EVERY single health registration is significant in someway. I've mentioned bloat several times and my personal opinion is that there is a genetic predisposition. Others have other opinions.. including that it is random, non genetic. The PHR database is one of the biggest, best populated (even with the current level of reporting of health issues) pedigree dog database for any breed. That makes it a very inviting resource for researchers to utilize in their studies. I'm going to be super unrealistic here, but let's say we had 100% reporting on all bloat cases for 5 years.. how long do you think it would take to come up with facts, instead of just ideas, theories and opinions regarding bloat? As it is, with the health registrations trickling in slowly, it's going to take many years and have a bit more margin for error with that research. If ever anyone is passionate about not wanting to have our poodles with health issues,the very best thing one can do, the very best way to fight back (and sometimes, depending on the health issue) the only way to fight back.. is to get those registrations in.
> 
> ...


:clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

SnorPuddel said:


> *Quite true, it is only a tool, and it should only be one of many tools a breeder uses*.
> 
> If more people, pet owners and breeders alike, submitted the health testing to OFA and/or PHR, the database would be much more comprehensive.


Snorpuddel
I have to admit that when I gt involved with poodles, I was astounded by how much is available to breeders, and owners. Testing , Registries and just plain folks. I have made so many *really great* friends that have mentored and helped me , and thus I have in turn returned that favor and done that for others. It does no good to "Hide" issues health problems and the like. We all as breeders, owners and just plain lovers of this breed, need to understand and realize that it only benefits the breed that we love to register health issues..Being a breeder of color is tough enough , but to not know about issues that lurk is horrible.. Bring it on, Register on PHR! Please ...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Wouldn't it be awesome if...
> 
> The registration of poodle health issues became the expected norm for poodle people? Kinda like health testing or whatever. No questions, no drama. Health issue happens and... the submission goes to PHR. How easy is that?
> 
> Each of us can help make that happen.


Wouldn't it be awesome if...

The reporting was up the the vets who make the diagnoses? Then we wouldn't be relying on breeders who might not post because of fear of retribution, or owners who are up to their eyes in grief. THAT would change the big picture!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Wouldn't it be awesome if...
> 
> The reporting was up the the vets who make the diagnoses? Then we wouldn't be relying on breeders who might not post because of fear of retribution, or owners who are up to their eyes in grief. THAT would change the big picture!


So you would like it to be the same as Europe ? 
I think it should be up to the breeder to be honest open and up front..After all if you are breeding for the right reason , why would a good breeder hesitate, if in fact that are doing it for the betterment....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Nope. I disagree. Crap. I'm getting a reputation for that (being disagreeable)<VBG>

My personal belief is this: if breeders are putting them out there, then breeders need to be responsible for their actions. There is so much that we have no control over at all, or very limited control (such as autoimmune disorders and all those nasties that we don't know the modes of inheritance on).

But I'm big on education, not regulation. I don't believe that we should have to be policed... and yes.. it would turn into regulation and policing. Eventually, people would question why a breeder has chosen to do this or that breeding.. was it with the vet's blessing? or not? and guess what. BAD, super bad breeder.

Let's back up a few years to when the theory of Addison's being a simple recessive with environmental triggers as to age of onset and severity was the commonly accepted theory. How many vets would have blessed a breeding with AD in the pedigree... and how many pedigrees don't have AD in them? IF that theory would have held true, we were at a tipping point years ago to where we would have lost the breed without some sort of extreme measures. 

So, let's take responsibility where we should and do what's right. Without regulation, without passing the buck for responsibility to someone else. Call me a renegade....


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

The problem we face with a "mandatory" or forced reporting is twofold. The obvious first one is that there is always someone who will find a way around it, so the data will never be 100% complete or reliable. And if breeders can report to PHR without the owner's permission, it's likely to keep certain owners from disclosing any health information, not even to the breeder. That scares me a lot because then not even the breeder who whelped the affected dog would be able to make an informed decision about further breedings.

The second is more insidious....regulations seem to breed in the middle of the night, in the back rooms of lawmakers with political agendas, and through the well-intentioned actions of those who care. As in Yadda's example, about bloat....first there's a law about mandatory reporting, then there's another reg about not breeding dogs with immediate relatives who bloat and then we have laws about not breeding any Poodle who has bloat anywhere back... say 5, or should we make it 10?, generations. 

What? There aren't any more Poodles? Just remember, there are highly organized, well-financed, and fanatically dedicated animal rights groups out there right now who advocate for that very thing. No more purebred dogs. Period. And they want to make laws about it.

We tread a very fine line and Yadda is right. Education will get us the best results. And kindness. The old cliche about catching more flies with honey than vinegar really applies here. And let's add determination. When you see someone on a group who mentions a sick Poodle, mention the PHR to them--privately if need be. Offer information about the website. Tell them where to find information. I can't monitor every group, but I'll bet among those here most of the Poodle groups on the web are covered. Consider yourselves PHR deputies :act-up: It's one way every one of us can participate.

One last thing....
I will be eternally grateful to every single person who has registered a Poodle health problem with the PHR. The data in the PHR does make a difference. Lynn has been analyzing the PHR pedigree and health data and working with the Poodle Club of Canada Health Officer in support of the valuable MHC/DLA research that's going at the University of Manchester. The PHR data has been supplied to the Addison's and SA researchers. Every bit of data is important.

Yes, I am grateful to those who have registered. And I grieve with them and I weep for the dogs. I weep for Gorky. And I still weep for my Charlie...

Nancy


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I am curious why there aren't many minis or toys on PHR. Anyone know?


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> I am curious why there aren't many minis or toys on PHR. Anyone know?


Not very many Toy or Mini health problems have been submitted. There are several on the main PHR website. But there hasn't been the enthusiasm from the Toy and Mini owners or breeders that there has been with Standards.

On the PHRDatabase.org website, you can select either the Standard or the Toy-Mini pedigree databases. As far as inputting OFA results in the T-MDB, there are about 19300 Poodle hip results on OFA. I've got slightly over 9500 Standard hip result in there. When I'm finished with Standards, I'll start on Toys & Minis. Anyone want a job? ;-)

N


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

Boyo (remember not the real name) is a well known, poodle with quite a few awards to his name. His dam, Momma is Addison's affected. His sire, Daddy-o died of bloat at a very young age. Daddy-o's death by bloat shouldn't have come as too much of a surprise, however because Daddy-o's sire, GrandPappy bloated at a very young age, was tacked, went on to get his CH. and has been bred a whole heck of a lot. Oops, Did I forget to mention that GrandMammy (on the sire's side) also died of bloat? Momma is also an aunt to a litter of pups having day blindness.

All stoney! - a set on Flickr

UKC Grand Champion Stoney

PHR Pedigree Database

Above are links to a web page written by Stoney's co-owner before he bloated.
He is my right hand and companion an ambassador for all poodles and in my opinion drop dead gorgeous! All of the health information is true but Stoney is the only reported bloat. A recent comment by a friend really struck home, "he was doomed before his first suckle".
As a newbie breeder or a person looking for a pet if I looked at the available health information, one bloat, some issues farther back but I would think he was a pretty safe bet! It is very easy to be fooled by titles and posted health testing, they are good things but do not tell the whole story. 
I know a breeder who really works hard and does all her testing and also reports everything to PHR, her comment " if you look at my reports to PHR it looks like I have ALL sick dogs" my answer was no you are honest about the issues you have faced and I would buy a pup in a heart beat from a breeder I saw was posting health issues. All lines have one problem or another, it is not personal and no breeder wants to produce sick puppies is what I would like to believe. For me reporting health issues means you are working for the betterment of the breed plain and simple. Pet owners also have a responsibility to report issues. I have often heard "its only a pet". Pets are just as important after all every Poodle isn't every Poodle a pet?


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