# (Another?) Rabies Vaccine Question



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This is an interesting dilemma. Here is an example that isn't an exact parallel, but may help you. I have a friend whose dog is from a breeder that is an advocate of raw diets and "requires" people who have her dogs to feed raw. I was at a trial with my friend and asked her how she managed to deal with the raw diet while traveling and she told me she doesn't feed raw. I said I thought this breeder required it and my friend said she just signed the contract and did what she wanted. She has had more than one dog from this breeder and never had a problem.

So my thinking is, tell the breeder what they want to hear, but do what PA law requires in the context of what your vet advises.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do they have those pet shop vaccine days around you? You could take the puppy there for the 14-16 week shots, and tell them you will go to your regular Vet for the rabies. Or you could take it to a different Vet for the 14-16 week shots, and tell them that you are just in town visiting family, and the law for rabies is different where you are from...
I am not a big fan of lying or breaking the law, but the 1st law in my world is "Protect the Poodles", so in my book it is perfectly fine to break any lower level rules in support of rule number one!


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

Thanks for the responses so far.

Tiny Poodles, I know the breeders must have reasons for wanting to delay the rabies vaccine so I would prefer to following their recommendations! But it is a confusing matter between wanting to follow their advice, the law, and my vet.

And thank you, lily cd re: I can understand that! But I would prefer to be honest when I sign a contract, although I know my vet won't make it easy for me.

I appreciate your ideas.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, my vet doesn't vaccinate my dog unless I tell him he can. He works for *me* and I make my own vaccination decisions. My vet vaccinated Lula for me (just distemper and parvo) at 16 weeks of age (using my own vaccine that I brought) and I told him that I would bring her back at a later time for rabies. That was that. I will bring her at 6 months for rabies. My state law I believe requires rabies by 4 months of age. But still, you tell your vet what he can or cannot do.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I don't think I would be comfortable flouting the law especially since there is rabies in the area. God forbid your dog even scratches someone as it could be beheaded, gruesome but true.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i would talk to the vet and find out where s/he is coming from. and where that is may depend on what responsibility the law in your area places on the vet. if s/he is required, for example, to report unvaccinated dogs, i'm not sure a vet would risk being fined or losing a license to practice. also, some vets are more open than others to concerns about the possible downsides of early or over vaccinating. i don't think it's wrong or unethical to look around for a vet who is both competent and understanding and willing to work with you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think you will have to operate within the constraints of your own comfort zone. I wasn't trying to tell you to violate a contract or break the law without weighing all the options/risks/benefits. I just think sometimes you need someone to offer a devil's advocate scenario to help you frame your thinking. I do hope you can figure out a reasonable solution that doesn't get you in trouble with any part of it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I think the most important thing is that regardless of what age you decide to have your puppy vaccinated for rabies, be sure to have the rabies vaccine given ideally at least a week (or more) apart from the Distemper+Parvo series. This will mean telling your vet NOT to vaccinate your puppy for rabies when you bring the pup in for the other vaccines and bringing your pup back later.

I encourage watching this video as it explains why requiring vaccinating at 3 months for rabies is a horrible idea on the lawmakers part, and why it is not in the best interest of your pet. It also explains the importance of separating rabies from other vaccines. http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/29/early-rabies-vaccination.aspx


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

lily cd re, i didn't take it that way at all. i really do thank you for your response.

i appreciate any and all input on this -- if i had already made up my mind about it, i wouldn't be asking


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Honestly, I think if someone makes a contract and that contract would cause someone to break the law, the contract would be considered void. The law comes first. 

Anyways, here Rabies is required by law at 4 months I believe. I just didn't let the SPCA know that MIsha existed. My vet does not report to them. He give the rabies certificate to the owner and it is up to the owner to notify the SPCA and send in the paper work. 

I just waited till Misha had her vaccine, I think it was around 7 months, I have horrible memory. Then I sent in the certificate and got her licensed. No one asked how long I had had her.


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

Starbuck said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I'm still looking for my pup-to-be, but I had a question about vaccines.
> 
> ...


I would rather be worried about my puppy catching rabies than the cops driving by catching me....especially if as you say, you got outbreaks. 

Unless you want to keep your dog at home and not take it out where other dogs go, I would vaccinate it as soon as possible and not delay it..... especially with a thing like rabies.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

You really don't want to take chances with rabies. It's 100% fatal, it's a horrible death, and it's transmissible to humans.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

We got Katie at about 5 1/2 months, so she had already received her puppy vaccine series and our vet didn't question the rabies. Her breeder suggested we not have her vaccinated for rabies until about 9 months, but we were eager to get her into classes. After a discussion with the breeder, we decided that 6 - 6 1/2 months would be a good compromise.* 

If I had known there were rabies in the area at the time (we're not far from Wayne), I would have gotten the vaccine sooner. Does the breeder know there is a real risk of puppy coming in contact with a rabid animal in your area?

* Katie ended up with a URI and ear infection just before she was scheduled to be vaccinated (her "shot" appointment became a "sick dog" appointment), so she ended up getting the vaccine at just over 7 months.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

That is a dilemma, but, as Cowpony says, rabies is a horrible disease. You may think you can keep a cat or dog inside, safely away from rabid animals, but...ever had a bat get into your house? Me, too. Our local health department advises that everyone in the house should get the rabies vaccine if you find a bat in your house and don't know how long it's been there. (We did find a dead bat downstairs last fall. I took it directly to the health department for testing. One of the first things they asked me was whether we had cats or dogs in the house, and whether they had been vaccinated. Fortunately, it wasn't rabid.)

That doesn't answer your question, and three months does seem awfully young. I don't know what I'd do...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JudyD, while any form of rabies is hypothetically transmissible to any other species, bat rabies is pretty unique to bats and has low transmission to other species. That being said, it is, as we all know, a horrible and uniformly fatal disease and one should not take any risks with respect to it. I make this mention about the low transmission of bat rabies to dogs, cats and people as a way of letting all my PF friends that bats in your yard should be welcomed as the mosquito eaters they are and not just looked on as a source of disease.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I absolutely agree about the value of bats, lily. I've even considered putting a bat house in one of the trees around here. I do like to watch them catching insects...outside. But my point was that assuming your animals don't need to be vaccinated because they never go outside could be a fatal mistake. Not likely at all, because most bats, including those that get into the house, aren't rabid, but...


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

You don't even have to come into close contact with an infected animal, it is enough if you move in places they have been: 

Rabies transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


> *The route of infection is usually, but not necessarily, by a bite*. In many cases the infected animal is exceptionally aggressive, may attack without provocation, and exhibits otherwise uncharacteristic behaviour. *Transmission may also occur via an aerosol through mucous membranes;* transmission in this form may have happened in people exploring caves populated by rabid bats.[8]


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I know some poodle owners who have gotten rabies vaccine waivers because of specific medical issues/concerns their dogs have. It appears Pennsylvania provides for this opportunity.

https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/Rabies state law chart.pdf 
An exemption may be granted for up to one year if a licensed veterinarian examines the dog or cat and determines that it would be medically contraindicated to vaccinate. After one year, the dog or cat must be reexamined.

I don't know how feasible (or advisable) it might be to pursue this, just thought I'd put it out there. I wonder if the breeder would be willing to speak directly to your veterinarian, maybe that would in some way be helpful? I am extremely wary of rabies. I had my mpoo vaccinated at 6 months. We live in a rural area of New Jersey. We routinely have a problem with rabid racoons out here in the spring and have had multiple visits in our house from bats and flying squirrels. A few years ago we had to shoot a fox on our property, because of his behavior he was suspected of having rabies. A local police officer police shot him, not me!:scared:


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Wild Kitten said:


> You don't even have to come into close contact with an infected animal, it is enough if you move in places they have been:
> 
> Rabies transmission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


My understanding is that the virus can live in a dead animal for up to 24 hours but dies very quickly when outside the body. I wasn't aware of the aerosol route.

Okay, are we all scared senseless yet?


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

JudyD said:


> My understanding is that the virus can live in a dead animal for up to 24 hours but dies very quickly when outside the body. I wasn't aware of the aerosol route.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, are we all scared senseless yet?



Yes! My friend was actually attacked by a rabid raccoon last year. She walked out her front door and the thing jumped on her, biting and scratching. The animal was euthanized. She had the full series of shots and thankfully has recovered!


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

Chagall's mom said:


> I know some poodle owners who have gotten rabies vaccine waivers because of specific medical issues/concerns their dogs have. It appears Pennsylvania provides for this opportunity.
> 
> https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/Rabies state law chart.pdf
> An exemption may be granted for up to one year if a licensed veterinarian examines the dog or cat and determines that it would be medically contraindicated to vaccinate. After one year, the dog or cat must be reexamined.
> ...


Thank you for the link. One thing I just learned from reading it is that for PA it says "For dogs and cats, within 4 weeks of the animal reaching 3 months of age"

I have to do some research on that to make sure it's correct, but if that's true, he could get vaccinated at 4 months and I wouldn't be breaking the law. I'm MUCH more comfortable with 4 months than 3 months.

As several people have mentioned, I also need to stress to the breeders I've been speaking to that rabies is possible in the area in which where I live.

At night, it's not unusual to see racoons and foxes, and we have many bats in this area (I do love bats). Pretty uniformly, the breeders have suggested supervision at all times (which I would do anyway with a pup), and having interaction with friends' dogs, and dogs that I know. This would mean less socialization until the shot, but hopefully I could find creative ways to keep my pup engaged, safely, with things outside my house until age 4 months.

But it is a balance between keeping my pup safe from rabies, trusting that the breeders have experience with this, and keeping my pup safe from rabies. And possible convincing -- either a breeder or my vet, I'm still trying to decide.

I appreciate everyone's input. It's helping me look at the problem from all angles and to make the best decision.

But, seriously, the 4-week window is the best news I've heard about this!

~ lauren and future pup


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

hopetocurl said:


> Yes! My friend was actually attacked by a rabid raccoon last year. She walked out her front door and the thing jumped on her, biting and scratching. The animal was euthanized. She had the full series of shots and thankfully has recovered!


This is really disturbing. Now I'm going to want to look both ways when going out my door. :afraid:

I'm glad your friend recovered


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## SilverSpoo (Jan 15, 2014)

As someone else said I would be most worried about something like a kid rushing up to your pup and your pup even play nips the child.... if your dog isn't vaccinated for rabies that could put both of you through heck. We try to control the environment our dogs are in, but sometimes things happen you just never know.

If you live in an area with rabies prevalent, I would personally opt to have it done at 4 months of age.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I strongly agree with CM that the rabies vaccine should be given alone. I do this will all Swizzle's vaccines and have Benadryl administered too. I would wait till the legal maximum date for the rabies and do it then.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

That 4 weeks news really is great news. 

In my contract, I suggest vaccinating for rabies according to Dr. Dodds protocol which is 20 weeks or older if allowable by law. I don't know about everyone else, but I would feel liable if I advised someone to break the law in my contract.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Starbuck said:


> Thank you for the link. One thing I just learned from reading it is that for PA it says "For dogs and cats, within 4 weeks of the animal reaching 3 months of age"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well yeah, if rabies is a real risk where you live, that throws a whole new light on it. Here in Manhattan, rabies is the last thing that I have to worry about my puppy coming into contact with!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The aerosol contact has to be direct contact, like you get slobber flung at you, not from dried saliva left behind by an animal that passed through an area before you got there. I would say though that if you directly followed a rabid animal through an area with your dog and the dog sniffed and inhaled deposited material that was still wet, the dog would have risk. Viruses generally are very vulnerable to being dried out, UV radiation exposure and disinfectants.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

One more scary story. A neighbor told me his teenage cousin, who lived in Texas, was in his bedroom with the window open when a bat flew in. He and a friend chased the bat back out, but the bat drooled on him in the process. Some time later, the boy began exhibiting strange symptoms, at first was thought to be developing a psychosis, but later was diagnosed with rabies and died. 

Our vet said there are a number of documented cases of organ recipients getting rabies from donor organs. Apparently routine screening isn't done for rabies. Okay, that's two scary stories. Enough already!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh yuck, yes--enough scary stories!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Tiny Poodles, I hate to burst your bubble but you are definitely at risk of rabies in Manhattan. http://www.healthfirstny.org/sites/default/files/files/pdfs/DOH 2012 Rabies.pdf


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

The only place you are not at risk of rabies is UK..... though I don't see that lasting much longer seeing as the pet travel scheme got so lax lately and all that import of cheap puppy mill pups often with false vaccination certificates. 

Sooner or later it will be brought in.... sad really...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

As if we needed another reason to love _beautiful_ Hawaii....

Animal Industry Division | Rabies Quarantine Frequently Asked Questions
Hawaii is the only state that is rabies-free.

Traveling with Pets to Hawaii - Can I Bring Pets to Hawaii?
Why is Hawaii different from any other state?
Hawaii is unique in that it has always been free of rabies, and is the only state in the United States to be rabies-free.
It wants to remain that way.

:island::island::island::island::island::island::island::island:


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

CT Girl said:


> Tiny Poodles, I hate to burst your bubble but you are definitely at risk of rabies in Manhattan. http://www.healthfirstny.org/sites/default/files/files/pdfs/DOH 2012 Rabies.pdf


Actually, this article would put my mind at ease were I in Manhatten. NO rabid dogs since 1954 is a pretty long time.


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

Chagall's mom said:


> As if we needed another reason to love _beautiful_ Hawaii....
> 
> Animal Industry Division | Rabies Quarantine Frequently Asked Questions
> Hawaii is the only state that is rabies-free.
> ...



CM:

But it sounds rough to move to with the quarantine rules...a good reason to be born there!  

...then again, I imagine it makes breeding more difficult.

~ SB


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

I didn't like the old quarantine laws in the UK, that was too expensive and unnecessary to keep dogs locked up for 6 months (it was too stressful for both dogs and owners, many dogs have died in quarantine too)........but the first pet travel scheme was good imo....... 6 weeks after rabies vaccination you had to have a blood test and then wait for 6 months until you could enter.... that made it possible for people to travel with pets or even import (after all this has been done) but made it unattractive for mass import, the puppies imported would be "too old" to sell. 

Now you can bring a pet in 21 days after the rabies vaccination, no blood test required, nothing...... since you can vaccinate pups as young as 12 weeks they can be brought in at age of 15 weeks....... and some unscrupulous people would vaccinate them even younger and lie about the age.... in which case the vaccine is totally useless and gives no protection..... or they don't even vaccinate and bring them in young and again..... lie about both, their age and the vaccines, so now there is a real danger of the disease being "imported" with one of these poor pups. 
There is not enough poeple at the ports to check properly. 

Recently I traveled in from europe, I paid a guy to transport me and Lucia, she was happy, was sleeping on my lap the whole 19 hours journey (we had many stops), but we had 6 dogs in the car..... another guy traveled with his boxer, and the driver was also bringing 6 4-month old pug puppies, they traveled without the owner. 
At first stop, we had to take the dogs into one building where they were scanned and their passports/vaccination certificates were checked - that was the french side, then we went past the border control, the UK guy only seen my dog since she was on my lap so he again checked her passport, but they never opened the trunk and have not seen the rest of the dogs. 
So in reality, the checks were very superficial, we could have brought in more dogs without them even knowing! 

I was actually disappointed by how superficial the control was.


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## Starbuck (Jan 5, 2014)

Ugh.

I'm having trouble backing up the information in:
https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/Rabies state law chart.pdf

which says "For dogs and cats, within 4 weeks of the animal reaching 3 months of age" (so by 4 months)

It references the PA code,
Pennsylvania Code

which says:
"A person living in this Commonwealth owning or keeping a dog or cat over 3 months of age shall have the dog or cat vaccinated against rabies under the act and this chapter."

The other reference is to The Legal and Historical Center (data checked 01/2014) found here:
Pennsylvania. Chapter 7A. Rabies Prevention and Control in Domestic Animals and Wildlife Act.

which says:
"A person owning or keeping a dog or a cat in this Commonwealth shall have the dog or cat vaccinated against rabies within four weeks after the date the dog or cat attains 12 weeks of age"

I would think the PA code is the one that's correct and every search I do comes up with 3 months, NO leeway mentioned.

Sad I'm so close to Delaware and they're 6 months.

I'm going to try to find out more information. I've already discussed vaccinations with my vet and she sounded very inflexible on rabies (more flexible on other and, of course, OK with spacing them out as much as possible.)

It's very frustrating trying to figure out what's best for the pup because it would seem that breeders and vets should not be in such disagreement. And now I feel like I have to be a lawyer to check what the law is :banghead:

~ SB


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## Wild Kitten (Mar 13, 2014)

To be honest, if I had to chose between what a breeder says and what the vet says.... I'd go with the vet 99% of the time............. if I don't like what one vet says I will go and ask a few others, and see what they think. 

A breeder is not a vet, they don't have to see all the sick animals where in many cases their conditions could be prevented with a vaccine.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I was a first time dog momma when I got Lou so she was vaccinated however they told me too 
I read a lot since the beginning but had not come accross vaccination info right away, just assumed it would protect them  

but we will titer from now on, Lou & Apollo's vet say they won't report us or anything if we choose to not vaccinate, so.... This is all very confusing at first ... Well it's still confusing...  


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't personally know anyone whose dog has developed rabies. I do know multiple people whose dogs have had severe reactions to rabies vaccines, more than one to the point of death. So, that is what drives breeders and even some veterinarians when they say to wait as long as possible. That particular vaccine is very hard on the immune system. Nothing in this world would make me vaccinate my dogs at 12 weeks for rabies.


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