# Thinking of showing



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

First things first, are you planning on showing akc or ukc? Yes its hard to tell from these pix, how old is she? Its hard to tell but it looks like she has been trimmed way too high over her eyes. If you take stacking pix I would do it of a freshly bathed pup and coat dried straight. She's cute and having confidence is really important in the show ring. It is a lot of fun and I find the grooming relaxing.. when I have time lol. Hard to tell how high up you went on the tail.. To answer your question yes its possible have a show quality pup from a breeder that doesn't show. Yes its harder to win if you have anything other than black or white but brown is third in that ranking. I should mention that a very nice dog regardless of color will have its fair share of winning. You have a big advantage over the pros too. Your dog has your undivided attention and training.


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## optimus21 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you, I will give her a bath and blow dry her and take some more pics, I clipped her (before I knew what and where to clip on the first day she was home) I wanted to see her eyes. I let that grow out.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I love her tail! Also she's a gorgeous pup overall. The thing is, anything can happen as she grows conformationally speaking, but my philosophy is, why not show? If you do want to show, go to conformation classes, put her on a really good quality diet and grow that coat! Basically you don't want to cut it at all, and learn to wrap or band in time as it grows long enough to get in her eyes and food bowl, and just to protect those ear fringes. Also, I love that you're going to handle her yourself but still, avail yourself of the experts. If you can find a professional poodle handler, get their advice; get a poodle specialist to groom her before the show (unless you're going in UKC). If something happens like her bite doesn't grow in correctly or she faults in some other way, oh well! You still have a gorgeous, loving companion. But if you can show, give it a shot! It's really fun. And remember to have a thick skin


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

You mentioned that you purchased your puppy from a breeder that does not show, implying that your pup may not be show quality. There are some very fine breeders who do not show. That does not mean that they cannot produce show quality puppies. Some very fine breeders just don't have it in their makeup to show. 

Each puppy should be considered individually. You best bet is to find a handler or judge and ask them to evaluate your pup. Remember, with grooming, unless you have an awful pup, you can disguise a lot of problems. In fact I have personally seen ewe necks poodles finish their AKC titles simply because the hair on the neck was sprayed up and disguised the fault. 

The question is not do I have a show quality puppy .... there are plenty of them .... but do I have a winning quality puppy. When you start showing, go into the ring with the intent that you and your pup will have fun. If you point or win, it is just gravy in your relationship with your pup.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

http://www.poodleforum.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=22827


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Sorry about that, Dumped again!

Optimus 21,

Cadbury is done and gone, a treasure in Browns. They had refined sculptured heads to die for, as well as the diversity we all need for our breed. Send a PM as to pedigree. Work with pup. It will make for a better relationship!

Paragon


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## optimus21 (Dec 29, 2012)

This has all been very helpful. Here is a link to the puppies dads pedigree, the moms is not in their database

Five generation pedigree: Sir Edward's Tyran


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

It is my highly uneducated opinion that a poodle is one of the harder breeds to show casually in AKC due to the grooming requirements. With many of the wash a were breeds the decision to show in confirmation is less of a big deal, and you can tinker with it and do a couple of local shows to see if you like it without a huge commitment. Right out of high school I worked with a standard poodle breeder caring for her pets. She usually had one bitch that would breed every couple of years. When she got a really nice puppy that she wanted to show she would only have faces/feet done for grooming and then send the puppy away to a professional groomer/handler until they finished their championship, and then they would come back with a more reasonable trim. Luckily most of hers finished as puppies in a puppy clip, but it is still a lot of hair.

I bet it would be helpful to show some good adult shots of your puppies parents to some of the more experienced poodle folks and get opinions on their conformation. That will at lease give you an idea of the pup can be competitive with the right grooming and handling.

There is also a whole world of “showing” outside AKC confirmation (which is what I typically jump to if someone says they want to “show”).


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I'll tell it to you like this. My mentor started showing years ago and started out with her "show quality" apricot bitch. She wasn't horrible just wasn't as competitive as the others in the ring. She had no one to teach her and her grooming wasn't all that great. She worked hard and soaked everything like a sponge, and she trained her bitch for the ring. It took a while but she finally finished her. Her hard work and perseverance paid off in the form of being noticed by a big name breeder that told her that when she felt she was ready to come and see her when she was ready for a real show dog. She did just that, and that is how she got started in poodles. I admire her very much and now she does a really nice job of grooming and handling. Don't be discouraged if this is something you really want to do. Even if your pup isn't as competitive as others you can still learn on her for when you get your first "real" show dog and have fun doing it together.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

That is great that you want to show your puppy in conformation. First realize the dog is not judged on his pedigree, so regardless if it is good or bad there is no bearing. The dog should be judged on what it is on any certain day. That being said, "the devil is in the details" and not many do the details as well as the professional handlers. Standard Poodles are really considered a "handler's breed", saying that not to scare you but to have you realize what you are up against. It is hard enough to learn all the ropes of showing a dog in the AKC ring, besides all the details of grooming and spray ups. I highly suggest you go to class, you learn ring procedure and then you attend UKC shows first. They use the same ring procedure for the most part and you learn how to present your dog, at the same time hopefully earning a championship title or more. Professional handlers are not allowed to show dogs unless they own them, and there are no hair products, such as hairspray allowed. There is also no disqualification for trims, or lack of, the judges help you if they know you are "new" and most of the exhibitors are very friendly. If you dog is registered with AKC or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) you can register him with UKC and get started. I show in both venues and enjoy both, but have to say AKC can really give you a beating and take some of the enjoyment out of what should be a good time with your dog. Here is the link for UKC, they don't always have shows in every area, but always worth checking out if you can find some within driving distance for you. United Kennel Club: Home Good luck and I hope we hear about your experience within time.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I show both UKC and AKC. If you wish to show AKC, you can comfortably handle yourself in the puppy classes 6-9 mo pup and 9-12 mo. Otherwise, you will not want to show open. Show Amateur owner handler when you can. It gives you only other amateurs against which to compete and often gets you into the breed ring.

I joined both the UKC poodle club (UPBA) and the local AKC poodle club in the Carolinas as well as my local AKC club. When going to AKC shows, I have plenty of friends who are there. Yes UKC is much easier. In fact one of Karat's competitors helped me prepare her for the ring. And, since UKC does not allow hairspray a floppy topknot is acceptable. in AKC, although hairspray is technically not allowed nor are wiggies, I doubt past puppy class that you will see any entries that have not been sprayed up. When Karat goes into the ring, if she goes with me, she still is prepared by a pro handler. 

Don't be discouraged about attending AKC shows. In my area, there are more AKC shows than UKC so just close your eyes and try it. If you are concerned, try some of the AKC club matches first to get a feel for showing. Most AKC clubs run matches several times during the year.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I would never discourage some from someone wanting to get up and show their dgs, but I have concerns about this...if the breeder doesn't show how can they tell you a puppy will be show quality? Was the litter evaluated by an outside source?

I've experienced first hand that you can't buy a show quality animals from someone who doesn't show (if you're a novice that doesn't understand structure or the breed standard yet like I was).

If you're serious about showing go to shows...leave your dog at home and meet people talk to them, explain the situation and see if they'd be willing to evaluate your dog...and understand if you ask for an honest opinion you will get it from poodle people hahaha!

UKC sounds like a good option though


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Keithsomething, you are absolutely wrong. There have been a number of AKC champions that did not come from breeders that show. Some breeders do not have the deep pockets to pay handlers to finish their dogs so elect not to show. That does not mean that the dogs are inferior. It only means that either the breeders don't wish to spend thousands to finish a dog or that they do not have the skills to do it themselves. Do you breed or show?


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

Marcoislandmom said:


> Keithsomething, you are absolutely wrong. There have been a number of AKC champions that did not come from breeders that show. Some breeders do not have the deep pockets to pay handlers to finish their dogs so elect not to show. That does not mean that the dogs are inferior. It only means that either the breeders don't wish to spend thousands to finish a dog or that they do not have the skills to do it themselves. Do you breed or show?


Although it is possible to get a puppy that someone thinks is show quality from a non showing breeder, it puts the owner at a SERIOUS disadvantage. You have to understand what you are doing, both in the ring and on the grooming table to be able to accomplish an AKC championship with a standard poodle. What most NOVICE people do not understand is that with Standard poodles you will be going against proffessional handlers. That can be compared to playing golf with Tiger Woods. The handlers are paid in the range of $85-100 everytime they show a dog, they go every weekend, they travel hundreds of miles to go to shows where they know the judging, this IS their livley hood, they are there to win. Do they ALWAYS win, NO, but more chances then not they do, and rarely are they beat by a Novice exhibitor for POINTS, yes you might win your class, but only WINNERS receives the championship points. Sorry but showing a Standard Poodle at AKC shows is not something you should close your eyes and walk into blindly unless you have extra income to throw away --I am talking from years of experience. I purchased a puppy from a breeder who did not show, the sire and dam were not champions, but everyone behind them were, and I KNEW what I was doing, the breeder did not. I had already bred and showed in the AKC ring with another breed, and had several champions that I had bred and understood structure. What I did not understand was grooming, or the technique of showing a poodle, which is different then other breeds. I did finish my dog completely owner handled, at the age of three years, but when I bred a dog I felt was "good" I sent him to a handler, because for me it was too much work. (Well it is OK if you win, but if you loose, it is too much work.) I felt in the long run it was less expensive to pay a handler then for me to run all over, and at my age I didn't feel I had to time to devote to a single dog. So when I am talking to a novice person, and to me novice is someone who has not had an AKC champion of any breed, I suggest they start with UKC, the money spent to travel to an UKC show is better spent then going to a hundred AKC shows and going home with not much more then a class ribbon. And I agree with Keith, go to AKC shows without your dog first and get the feel of it, then make your decision on which route you think would work for you.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

Jacknic;276449 I did finish my dog completely owner handled said:


> I was wondering about the cost aspect. If the goal is to own an AKC champion, then it sounds like it is less expensive to have a professional handler.
> 
> The woman I worked for had most of her dogs finish in 6-9 months (one was 3 months I think!) under a professional handler. That got them the championship she needed to justify breeding a litter every couple of years, but the pup back home on her couch as soon as possiable.
> 
> It sounds like a lot of people are saying if your goal is to have some fun showing UKC may be the way to go, being a bit more forgiving of handler errors, etc - because if the goal is to enjoy showing your dog it helps to win occassionally


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Pluto, you mentioned that the woman you worked for finished her dogs at 6-9 months and one a 3 months. I would like her name and kennel name. That must have been a phenomenal standard. BTW, you cannot finish a 3 month old. They are in unlicensed classes. If you are interested in a handler, the cost of finishing can varying widely depending upon how good your dog is. A great dog, in the hands of a good handler could finish in 3-4 months and cost, with boarding, etc. roughly $3000. I know of one lady who has a mini that has been in the hands of a top handler going on 9 months and has not finished yet. Her investment has been 7500 so far. The mini just isn't that good. Yes, she may ultimately finish her ... in Alaska or Puerto Rico. 3-4 months is a reasonable time to allow a handler to attempt to finish your dog. If they cannot achieve the task in that time period, and there is only 1 major attained, I would tell you that the dog might not have what is needed to champion. Remember, with enough money, you might still finish that dog.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

Marcoislandmom she had a handler finish her dog _in_ three months  He was 11 months old. I see now that the sentence was not as clear as I though.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Marcoislandmom said:


> If you are interested in a handler, the cost of finishing can varying widely depending upon how good your dog is. A great dog, in the hands of a good handler could finish in 3-4 months and cost, with boarding, etc. roughly $3000.


My dog finished his championship quickly, within 3 months, missing being a puppy champion by a couple of days. And it cost a heck of a lot more than $3,000!!!!!!!!!

Finishing at $3,000 would be pretty unusual!


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## optimus21 (Dec 29, 2012)

I looked at the UKC event list and there are none near me or even close for the whole year. I am going to try some local shows or close by, if she doesn't work out that's fine, I prob test the waters with local shows. We will start conformation classes in feb. I am not opposed to professional handlers if she has what it takes. But mainly just wanted to test the waters. From what I have heard it is pretty much impossible to just go and buy a show puppy If your a newbie) you have to have shown or be big name kennel. I may go and realize it is not for me. But I feel the need to try. I rather try and fail than not try at all. All this information is helpful the good and the bad. I have realistic expectations.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

That sounds great optimus21, my first advice is --get that collar off your baby,neck hair is precious!
Good Luck!


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Marcoislandmom said:


> I know of one lady who has a mini that has been in the hands of a top handler going on 9 months and has not finished yet. Her investment has been 7500 so far. The mini just isn't that good. Yes, she may ultimately finish her ... in Alaska or Puerto Rico.


Well I don't know about Puerto Rico, but Alaska has a pretty competitive mini ring right now lol. I'm pretty sure their Spoo ring has some nice dogs too lol. There is a Sunraze mini up there that I thought would have had more points by now.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

optimus21 said:


> From what I have heard it is pretty much impossible to just go and buy a show puppy If your a newbie) you have to have shown or be big name kennel. I may go and realize it is not for me. But I feel the need to try. I rather try and fail than not try at all. All this information is helpful the good and the bad. I have realistic expectations.


all the more reason to start with this pup. You'll learn to groom and show this dog. Your right you'll have to prove yourself to get a chance at a nicer dog later on.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

and Puerto Rico usually has Kay P. 

Don't count on picking up those points!


Keithsomething is right, and Jacknic was very polite while being realistic.

Give it a try! If you want to show - go to shows, have your pup evaluated and give it a whirl! 

R.E.: Pups from breeders who do not have AKC titles on their OWN dogs, not "Ch in the line", duh! All lines have a CH in there somewhere! :alberteinstein: 

It certainly seems "show quality" is the thing to promote (along with COI being promoted as the latest sales gimmick). Yet, if they have not finished an AKC CH, how do they know what show quality is? Perhaps they would be better served promoting: first conformation pick, second conformation pick, and stop! Litters usually don't have multiple show puppies in them, unless the litter is linebred on Ch's. And then sometimes not all of the pups are pups that are finished. Reality Check! :2in1:

It's very possible I'm venting a bit of frustration on your thread. Earlier I was involved in a conversation and learned of a breeder who, with them only a week old, has taken deposits on her "show" puppies from a "CH" breeding. Note that neither of her adults are CH - not UKC or AKC or any other alphabet combo :scared: 

As a breeder - owner handler in AKC, I struggle to understand the mentality of these breeders. (Especially when they are color breeders - and I KNOW, as I have titled some of the last color to CH, there are so few titled color and generally, quality in color is all but non existent). Are they that interested in selling/placing their pups? Do they really not know? Are they that unethical? Or are they that deluded??

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Nola,

In part I agree... Colour is hard to finish, compared to Black or Cream. Browns are a close 3rd and overall have better structure than some Colour. We have to have better hair, spray-ups, trained pups, and as good or better conformation than the competition on that day. It does not mean it cannot be done, and you cannot do it....

My boy's father was not a CH, but he produced plenty of them, never mind performance and service dogs.... We need to look at a bigger picture. 

Some breeders do not do the Conformation ring for various reasons.... One of them is that at times they see inbred dogs with poor structure, and health issues behind them winning with handlers. Not always, but enough to make it not worthwhile. Some can't grow and maintain coat. They do not have the money to pay handlers to do it for them.. Instead they get their proof in the Performance ring. If you look at a performance dog, the structure can be very different from what is in the ring, but still very much following the breed standard, perhaps at times, more so.....

Knowing structure, movement is important. You also need to learn to hide your dogs faults... They all have them. 

Optimus

You now have a pup that you would like to show. Get enrolled in Handling casses. Most Clubs run them. It is good socialization for pup, and builds a reltionship.

Go to a show and watch. Do not talk to the handlers when they are doing spray up or getting ready to go in the ring. There is always some that are quite nice, as you might be their next client. Tell them that you have a pup that you might like to show. Ask if you could watch them. I would suggest you volunteer to help the handler and make like a sponge. They will ikely be skeptical at first, and you will likely get X-Pen duty.

Pup has some time to grow up before first show. You can build a relationship with a handler in the meantime. Some will help you out in exchange for "Sweat Laubour" during the shows..... If you are observant you will also learn alot about grooming, hiding faults, presentation etc. You will also get some respect at the shows..... 

If you have a relationship with the handler you will also get a more honest opinion of the pup's chance in the ring.... You would be more than a face with a pocketbook...

The whole point of this is to make everything pleasureable for you and pup. If pup is not a prospect for the Conformtion ring, perhaps you can try Obedience, Field work, and other venues.... No matter what love and treasure your baby....

Paragon


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Annie - AKC CH Antoinette Bordeaux du NOLA's Caniche Rouge - was out of untitled parents -and I should clarify...untitled for generations! (Though had her breeder been so gimmicky, she could have certainly promoted "CH Lines", as soooo many seem to have no problem doing).

No issue at all showing a pup from non titled parents.

I think Optimus should grab the brass ring (or the Blue Ribbon!). :first:

My post was more to the selection of "show pup." And not directly to Optimus' breeder. It WAS to breeders, whom, for whatever their reason(s), do not show, have never shown and are never going to show, yet who are, litter after litter selling "show prospects" to people who genuinely plan to title their dogs, yet who are being misled.

Maybe it's just Caveat Emptor. Though it's my opinion that we, as breeders, should have much higher (or is it many more) scruples.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## optimus21 (Dec 29, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies, I have contacted and will be joining our local kennel club and will do conformation classes in late feb. You have to attend 3 meetings and then they vote if you can join. So I am sure that should help. There are a few shows within driving distance that I am going to try and go to just to get a idea. Even if she turns out not to be show quality I think it would be good just to experience it.


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