# What do you think about breeding bigger standards?



## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

I have a bigger Standard ...and I love all 70+ lbs of him. We wanted a bigger dog, so looked for a breeder that was breeding larger Standards. But... we are planning on adding another Spoo to our family in the future, and we are discussing a smaller-sized red, because this time we are looking for a medium sized dog. I love Poodles and it's just great that they come in any size a person could want!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Size discussions tend to get nasty.

What I have found is that poodle people on the whole tend to be extremely judgmental and very intolerant of anything they, themselves don't personally like. 

Then the attacks start... okay.. let's see.. there's no such thing as a royal, or a teacup (interesting that in the USA... moyen seems to be turning into an accepted term). Then the finger pointing begins "Oh horrors! Did you see the size of that poodle!!! There just must be something wrong with it! It's different, it's not normal". What I have found is a tremendous amount of health issues through poodles of all sizes... but while the health issues are "acceptable" in average sized poodles, in either very small or very large poodles the health issue is blamed on the size. Occasionally.. the size is the culprit, but rarely. More often genetics are.. and most really big.. and really small poodles have the same genetic background as the rest of the poodles. 

As far as breeder's breeding smaller for hip/joint health.. well not many "royals" have LCP. Hip dysplasia is considered to by polygenic with environmental influences. Basically.. it's all marketing and marketing strategies. All though more and more breeders are breeding smaller statured standards, there is still a big demand for them (take a look at the postings on this group from people looking for Klein and Moyen sized poodles). I know someone who used to have standards who decided there was no money in standards.. she switched to mini standard crosses and klein poodles... and has now been through the alphabet (meaning bred more than 26 litters) a few times over. She doesn't work outside the home, she "markets" based on the wonderful temperaments of that sized dog as well as the convinence of the size. Marketing sounds harsh. It is, what it is. She supports herself off of her dogs, doesn't work outside of the home. I see her name come up on this group frequently as a breeder who is "recommended". That's reality. She saw an opportunity to corner a "niche" in breeding.. and did just that. Supply and demand. That demand means money for breeders and most breeders use what whatever they can to promote whatever they are selling. If they can promote smaller dogs as having better temperaments joint and hip health.. well.. who is going to buy a bigger one? On the other hand, if a breeder of larger poodles promotes dogs having the best temperaments and better for hunting.. well??

There are very few actual studies or research available on health issues of different sizes. When someone slams a poodle of a different size, it's usually because it's other than what they have.. .and they may not like it.. but more than likely they really are clueless about the overall health of that poodle. It's almost like discrimination... or being a hater. Don't believe me.. take a look through the archives of this group.

Just as some pet owners prefer small, some prefer large. People, just like poodles weren't all made with the same mold, we are all different, we have different likes and dislikes. If people didn't like different sizes, there would be no demand for them.. and people would quit breeding them. No demand, no puppy sales...no more breeding.

I like a solid poodle, one tall enough that I don't have to bend over to pet them or touch them. I like poodles big enough to help me in my daily tasks. I prefer bone structure, in whatever size, to be heavy enough to support the dog well while the poodle is still light on his feet. That's my personal choice.

I had an eye opening experience a few winters ago. I had a little 21 inch poodle visiting me, deep snow on the ground.. and I ended up on my hands and knees while looking for something. I called out (the normal routine).. and the 21 incher came running to my rescue. Unbelievable. My other poodles were inside. They stand and brace for me, they pick things up for me.. I interact with them so often that having them help me is habit. So.. down on my hands in needs in deep snow.. with a 21 inch tall poodle. What on earth does anyone do with a 21 inch poodle anyone. So.. she licked my face and otherwise encouraged me as I crawled to my porch so that I could stand up. Now I'm sure there are people out there who enjoy their 21 inch poodles...by chance, I do own a 21 inch poodle as well (the 21 inch facelicker, however was returned to her previous home).. however...my larger poodles are the poodles who keep my on my feet. I can't imagine only having a 21 inch poodle. Kinda like having a cap gun in a shootout!

Basically, I guess it's different strokes, for different folks. I have to say that just because a poodle is big as a tank.. does not mean that it is not sturdy. Again.. just like in average sized poodles, some are more structurally correct than others, some are worse than others. I have seen plenty of smaller poodles who were not correct structurally, including some who were limited by their structure.


So.. I guess for a straight forward answer.. people breed poodles of all sizes (of each size?) because that's what other people want. Supply and demand... and pleasure.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Well, look at the other giant breeds; danes, newfies, bernies, mountain dogs, ect. These dogs have shorter life spans just by aging faster, not to menetion the increase rise on their joints and chests.

Vienna comes from a large litter, she's a bitch at about 25-26", her brothers are at about 30", the two that I've been around are already having problems. One has bloated and one has epilepsy. These dogs are also super thin, I can't imagine the strain if they were heavy. Just my opinion.

Standard poodles aren't meant any shouldn't be giant. They're suppose to be a regal and elegant breed; I think that starts being removed when they get TOO large.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Warning: I may not be very coherent, I'm pretty tired as I'm writing this and should probably be sleeping.

Not to insult anyone or poodles (they don't really get a say in everything) but I keep hearing from vets that the only proven thing to help prevent and slow down arthritis is keeping large dogs slim from youth. So even with good lines, aren't the larger poodles going to have a harder time on their joints no matter their pedigree? More gravity, more stress. 

And also, if a smaller, fine boned, even slender poodle has bad breeding, they too could have early or severe joint problems.

Neither seem all that conducive to great health. To my thinking, it would seem that the smaller, fine boned standards with good breeding would have the best chance for joint health. I can't talk about bloat and other things because I don't really know about that.

I love all standards. But I do think that the ones bred for the classic regal bearing and slim, delicate lines look like ideal standard poodles. When they get huge and big boned, they start to look like portuguese water dogs and doodles to me.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

If a dog just happens to be bigger or smaller than usual, there's nothing wrong with that. That's just natural variety. However, if a breeder is purposely breeding together large dogs and selecting the biggest puppies to breed with the intention of breeding larger and larger dogs and marketing said dogs under a gimmick name, I don't think this breeder has the best interests of the breed at heart. Poodles were originally bred to be retrievers, and most retrievers are medium-sized agile dogs. If you want a big strong dog or a very tall dog, there are other breeds around that will fit the bill. 

Within a species, being over an optimum size puts more strain on the heart and joints. It's nothing to do with genetic disease; it's just straightforward physical issues of mechanics and the blood pressure necessary to keep a larger body adequately oxygenated. That's why tall, fat, or muscular people tend not to live as long as smaller ones when other factors have been accounted for. It's presumably why Douglas Adams (an unusually tall person) died of a heart attack aged 49. The largest breeds of dogs around today have a life expectancy of around seven years, whereas smaller ones can expect more like sixteen years. I don't think a poodle the size of a Great Dane would be attractive or move nicely, or contribute anything positive to the breed.


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

Since I have a very small male standard, I always hesitated to enter him in conformation.....id see what was currently being show and they seemed huge, taking these HUGE strides around the ring and I felt like we didn't stand a chance. I bred him to a fairly big females, bigger boned and taller and I plan on showing Sugar who is a granddaughter. She seems to be the type that would not be overlooked like her small pap-pap. I like em all. Every size fulls a need for someone. My least favorite ones are the 3-5 pounders....just not into mesquito size dogs


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I have a small standard. She is different than a fullsized one, not as robust looking, a smaller bark, but super light and bouncy. I love the fullsized ones and may get one yet. The big boned giant ones, to me, lack elegance. They lose that because of their weight, but that doesn't mean they aren't great dogs. They just aren't particularly bouncy/poodly, but some people don't care about that. 

The heavier/bigger they are the more joint problems. I think it is possible to have a big one without joint problems, but they would have to be light weight for their height. Larger dogs live shorter lives. Some breeders are trying to control the size by breeding more average sized standards.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> If a dog just happens to be bigger or smaller than usual, there's nothing wrong with that. That's just natural variety. However, if a breeder is purposely breeding together large dogs and selecting the biggest puppies to breed with the intention of breeding larger and larger dogs and marketing said dogs under a gimmick name, I don't think this breeder has the best interests of the breed at heart. Poodles were originally bred to be retrievers, and most retrievers are medium-sized agile dogs. If you want a big strong dog or a very tall dog, there are other breeds around that will fit the bill.
> 
> Within a species, being over an optimum size puts more strain on the heart and joints. It's nothing to do with genetic disease; it's just straightforward physical issues of mechanics and the blood pressure necessary to keep a larger body adequately oxygenated. That's why tall, fat, or muscular people tend not to live as long as smaller ones when other factors have been accounted for. It's presumably why Douglas Adams (an unusually tall person) died of a heart attack aged 49. The largest breeds of dogs around today have a life expectancy of around seven years, whereas smaller ones can expect more like sixteen years. I don't think a poodle the size of a Great Dane would be attractive or move nicely, or contribute anything positive to the breed.


I agree with everything you said. I don't understand breeding spoos to be tanks, why not use a breed that is normally this way if that's what you need?

People who like their tank spoos won't agree that there's anything unhealthy about them. 

I also love spoos no matter what but they start to move and look unpoodley and so what's the point?


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Well ... my guy is on the bigger side, and there is NO doubt he is a poodle. And he bounces and prances like a poodle. Not sure what size you guys are talking about, but .... I did see a poodle on a website that was 125 lbs. Honestly ... I thought it was a Doodle, but they claim it's a Spoo. And Russell doesn't look huge next to a lot of the Spoos in our neck of the woods! There are lots that are smaller ... and lots the same height and heavier. Gotta say, even at the last Dog Show I went to, he woulda fit right in. He is taller than the "average" Labrador Retriever, but weight a heck of a lot less. Maybe I'm just missing the point


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

It's not so much the ones that are a bit taller or a bit thicker than your "average" spoo, it's like when they're so tall or so thick that they don't even really resemble poodles anymore.

But you could also argue that people don't seem to be breeding them to standards anymore and if they're not doing that, then they may be creating what could become shortly new breeds or you could ask, why breed them if you don't like the breed standard and want to change them?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I like a solid poodle, one tall enough that I don't have to bend over to pet them or touch them. I prefer bone structure, in whatever size, to be heavy enough to support the dog well while the poodle is still light on his feet. That's my personal choice.


It's good to see Yadda back.  

Specially abt the 'bending over' part!  lol


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> But you could also argue that people don't seem to be breeding them to standards anymore and if they're not doing that, then they may be creating what could become shortly new breeds or you could ask, why breed them if you don't like the breed standard and want to change them?


But taken right from the AKC website
"The Standard Poodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle."


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I think as with everything with trends in breeding, you have to look at the reason. Can bigger standards (or smaller toys for that matter) fulfill a purpose that the current sizes can't? If so, I'm all for it, as long as dogs are bred for health and longevity and temperament and function. 

However, exaggerating a trait (any trait, not just size) in order to fulfill (or create) demand is the road many breeders have taken to the detriment of dogs.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Well, look at the other giant breeds; danes, newfies, bernies, mountain dogs, ect. These dogs have shorter life spans just by aging faster, not to menetion the increase rise on their joints and chests.
> 
> Really? They do age faster, they do have shorter average life expectancies and they are giants... however, it's only in recent years that the life expectancies have been so short. Most of these breeds have experienced genetic bottlenecks and massive inbreeding resulting in inbreeding depression, MHC homozygosity as well as selection for traits which may have helped to promote deletorious recessive genes. We all know the sayings.. if we hear hoofbeats.. we look for horses, not zebras; but sometimes leaping to the obvious conclusions can be damaging to all involved. These larger breeds do have shorter life expectancies... however, there is MUCH, MUCH more going on than meets the eye. To just equate progressively large size with progressively shorter life expectancy is missing out a huge part of the picture.
> 
> ...


There are people who prefer larger standards. I suspect that as time goes on, we will see the larger standards showing better and better structures. It's a gradual process.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> Not to insult anyone or poodles (they don't really get a say in everything) but I keep hearing from vets that the only proven thing to help prevent and slow down arthritis is keeping large dogs slim from youth. So even with good lines, aren't the larger poodles going to have a harder time on their joints no matter their pedigree?I suspect that it depends on what vet you talk with. Arthritis.. as well as hip dysplasia, can have numerous causes (including tick diseases/arthritis!) . There is a study out which indicates that dogs who are fed a 25% diet restriction delayed the onset and reduced the severity of hip joint osteoarthritis. Of note, I haven't seen any information on the circumstances under which the dogs lived. Diet is only one factor in osteoarthritis The study was done with labs. The other thing that came out of this study is the fact that.. at least in this study, the development of hip joint osteoarthritis occurred as a "continuum throughout life". Most folks tend to have the idea that it's there, or it's not and don't have an awareness of the things we can do to help ward it off or limit it in our personal dogs. More gravity, more stress. That should make sense... however, the more pressure, the more dense the bone. Pressure and weight is required in order to increase bone density.
> 
> And also, if a smaller, fine boned, even slender poodle has bad breeding, they too could have early or severe joint problems.
> 
> ...


.....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

zyrcona said:


> if a breeder is purposely breeding together large dogs and selecting the biggest puppies to breed with the intention of breeding larger and larger dogs and marketing said dogs under a gimmick name, I don't think this breeder has the best interests of the breed at heart.
> 
> Every breeder has a priority breeding focus and some have several. Some breeders breed for health, some for color, some for reduced health issues, some breed for functionality (the best hunting dogs, or service dogs). As for "gimmick" names... just about anyone selling poodle puppies has a "gimmick", "show lines", "champion parents", "fully health tested", "nonfading reds", "small standards", "holding blacks"..... IMO while "gimmicks" these are also DESCRIPTIVE terms. While observing people who have puppies for sale, I find a lot of finger pointing.. why the heck not, they are all competing for a limited amount of homes. Other people selling puppies tend to be the biggest offenders at identifying "gimmick" terms, while simultaneously using their own gimmick terms. The better marketers they are, the easier it is to convince puppy people to "watch out for evil gimmicks!!!" while still perpetuating their own. I'd like to encourage people to ... not be haters and don't fall into the trap of perpetuating this stuff. Our lives are limited, every second of every minute of every hour of every day is a limited quantity.. do we really want to spend that time debating over whether or not someone should be tarred and feathered for promoting their poodles as "royal" or "teacup" size.. when in fact, there are other people oyt there who REALLY want "royal" or "teacup" size?
> 
> ...


.....


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I think there are some families out there where the wife decides on a standard poodle as the breed to bring home, but "oh hubby doesn't like the idea of a poodle" and so they look at huge standards to make up for the poodle's feminine reputation. Kind of like guys who drive big trucks with ridiculous wheels. The husbands can say "yeah my dog is a poodle, but he weighs 100lbs!" Its over-compensation. And maybe this is how some breeders flourish, because they market to these type of people.

I understand that there are health issues with any size poodle, but when the breeders focus on one thing, wether it's size or color, without promoting good lines, then that isn't helpful to the breed.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> But you could also argue that people don't seem to be breeding them to standards anymore and if they're not doing that, then they may be creating what could become shortly new breeds or you could ask, why breed them if you don't like the breed standard and want to change them?


Breed standards are subjective and with the AKC, there is no upper height limit on standards. It's also important to keep in mind that a breed standard is a human definition of "the ideal poodle". Also, breed standards and "ideal" tend to change with time. What was ideal 60 years ago, is no longer ideal. Breeds and standards "evolve".

We have a lot of breeders/owners of red standards on this group. It has not been until the last decade that reds have been able to be registered in many of the Europe countries, instead, they were registered as apricots, reds weren't recognized, yet people liked them and continued to breed them. 

The lot of the partipoodle has been ugly through the years. Because they were considered not acceptable and not desireable, for years in the US, many breeders destroyed any pups with abstract markings and were very hush-hush about ever having one in their bloodlines. Now there are all sorts of people out there.. who are want/own gorgeous poodles with spots, stripes and masks. The downside of it is.. there has been a tremendous amount of irresponsible breeding going on. From a health standpoint, I would take a huge poodle over a parti any day. I look at standard parti's and I see a whole lot of heartbreakers.. and.. short lived poodles not related to size. I simply am not hearing of too many second and third generation standard parties who are living longer than seven years.. and am aware of a whole lot who are dead at age five. Do I think that no one should own them, that they shouldn't be bred? I wouldn't go that far, however, I wish that everyone involved with them would proceed with extreme caution and only after lots and lots of research. I also really wish.. just as with poodles of all sizes, that there was better reporting of health issues.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> The husbands can say "yeah my dog is a poodle, but he weighs 100lbs!" Its over-compensation. And maybe this is how some breeders flourish, because they market to these type of people.
> 
> I understand that there are health issues with any size poodle, but when the breeders focus on one thing, wether it's size or color, without promoting good lines, then that isn't helpful to the breed.


Well said.

Again, refering to red poodles because many people here are aware of the efforts of Ilse Koenig at Shangri-la who crossed back into miniature lines. She ended up with a lot of short legged dogs with big heads. Pretty ugly.. but when you look at some of our reds now, there are some really nice red lines (there are still a lot who are lacking), I think it's important to keep in mind that for some breeders the development of certain traits is an ongoing process. 

Regarding "good lines" that is also something that is up to individual definition and everyone seems to have their own definition. All pedigrees have health issues in them, working away from health issues is tough. There are many who are willing to sacrifice health for appearance.. and all say they have "good lines".


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I agree we have bred almost an "artificial" dog where it wouldn't be able to survive on its own without the help of humans to keep up with coat care. And it is very interesting to see the changes in the breed standard regarding color and size. I've always wondered why there was no cap in the max size of a standard, and why it's just "15" and over" - the problem I have with some "oversized standard" enthusiasts is that they think "bigger is better" and they discount the other sizes. Just because someone prefers them big, they shouldn't regard the other sizes as inferior


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Countryboy said:


> It's good to see Yadda back.
> 
> Specially abt the 'bending over' part!  lol



Thanks.. uhh.. red faced.. that was a big graphic.. sorry!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

tokipoke said:


> the problem I have with some "oversized standard" enthusiasts is that they think "bigger is better"Oh my (this is said with a huge wink and a giggle).. and you are from Texas and they discount the other sizes.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because someone prefers them big, they shouldn't regard the other sizes as inferior


*YES!!!

Now why couldn't I have just said that? That's pretty much my whole point.. it works for all sizes. *


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Regarding "good lines" that is also something that is up to individual definition and everyone seems to have their own definition. All pedigrees have health issues in them, working away from health issues is tough. There are many who are willing to sacrifice health for appearance.. and all say they have "good lines".


My definition of "good lines" is good health, but I understand appearance matters too, sometimes more, especially when trying to sell puppies and show dogs. The first thing many people look at is the color of the dog. This reminds me of bodybuilders who compete for titles. They look like the epitome of fitness and health yet on competition day, they are the weakest they have ever been, starving, and highly dehydrated. All for the sake of appearance.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Thanks.. uhh.. red faced.. that was a big graphic.. sorry!


Ah crumb.. this is getting worse by the moment... I'm so red faced now it's almost purple.

I meant BIT graphic, not BIG... sigh....


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> the problem I have with some "oversized standard" enthusiasts is that they think "bigger is better" and they discount the other sizes. Just because someone prefers them big, they shouldn't regard the other sizes as inferior


I'm afraid I beg to differ here! Both My poodles were bigger Standards, and I have to say I have had more "Poodle People" turn their noses up at them as "oversized" than I can count  I, on the other hand, love the Standard poodle. Small, big, they are all just right for me. The only reason my new Poodle is big is because during researching the Brown, I found a breeding pair I loved, the colors were good, the health history was fantastic, I liked the breeder's attitude and breeding practices, and the time was right! 
We are talking a red next, and both breeders we are considering have smaller sized standards.
Rant over


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

tokipoke said:


> The husbands can say "yeah my dog is a poodle, but he weighs 100lbs!" Its over-compensation.


Bein' a guy, I can see this point of view. But, depending on where u live, and who yr buddies are, it's pretty much necessary. Tonka's 27", and I keep his ears short to make him look even more like a dog . . . rather than a Poodle. All my friends love him . . . but they didn't at first! 

There's only one 'small' Standard that I see on a regular basis. And she loves her ear rubs. Rather than me bending over, I encourage her to stand up and put her paws on my chest.


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## kirobins (Dec 16, 2010)

*Big and small I love them all*

I have two adopted Standards. Luna I adopted first she is all of about 45lbs at 2.5 yrs old. Then I adopted Kaia, she is 60 lbs. If it was not for the obvious size difference they could be twins. They even have the same dorky personality. Kaia's coat is thicker and a little morecoarse than Luna's.. What is the difference between the two standards?


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## LSK (Nov 27, 2012)

*My sweet Charley was a big guy too*

I just lost my 13 1/2 yr old Charley boy who was a Blue Spoo just this Monday. He was a tall guy with diagnosed HD before he turned 9 months, in fact the doctor mentioned his worry when I brought him in at 2 1/2 months. He missed the window to get the operation as a pup because the vet had the tests HD Xrays on him when it was too late....We then went into overdrive to keep him healthy. Bought a home with a huge lawn just so he could have soft grass to play on, I kept him lean at 80 lbs and he received Adequan series of shots all through his life. He got pure water only and special food. Eventually at 12 1/2 yrs old he starter to stiffen up and his spine showed some problems. We then started the pred, tramadol and then Gabapentin. He stayed strong and pain free until just before he passed. The breeder was apologetic when I informed her of his HD when he was diagnosed as a pup. She made a mistake and did not checkout his mom for HD. She was genuinely sorry and refunded Charley's fee to go towards his care. I thought that was kind and ethical. We spent at least 20K toward his health care...Xrays, follow ups to see if he could get the hip operation as a pup, acupuncture, and other holistic approaches to keeping him healthy for as long as possible. And it all worked. He lived a happy and full life with us until just recently. And he was walking, with us lifting him up, until 24hrs before he completely broke down and everything went haywire. 
I would get another big guy again but I would make sure about the testing of the parents. Still no assurance but it is at least something. We were fortunate that we were able to do everything possible to keep him healthy and pain free as possible. He was such a great pal that we would do it all over again but this time I would have done a hip replacement and not listened to the vet who sort of poo-pooed the idea because he was not "that bad yet" Maybe he might have lived longer if I had done it......I will never know. Terrible hole in our lives without him...


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Aw, LSK, what a horrible loss of such a beautiful boy! Thank you for taking such excellent care of him throughout his wonderful life. I know he enjoyed being loved the way he was.


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

*Larger Spoos-Could it be early spay-neuter?*

When I was looking for a Spoo a found breeders who claimed they where breeding larger Standards e.i. over 25 inches and 60 pounds. Both of these breaders also spayed-neutered at 8-9 weeks! I did not know about early spay-neuter so I did some research and found that dogs spayed-neutered well before puberty can frequently be taller and heavier but look lighter and have narrow skulls and chests. They also have more bone related problemes. This link states some studies that were done Canine Sports Productions: Early Spay-Neuter Considerations for the Canine Athlete

I decided to play safe and look for a breeder that would let me neuter my dog after puberty. Sushi is almost a year old now and I am really happy I kept him intact since he is already 26 inches and 60 pounds! He is not growing as fast anymore but his skull and chest have narrowed and he is gorgeous!

His brother who was neutered at 5-6 months is now 28 inches tall and 70 pounds and not as wide as Sushi. I know this is not a signifiant number but I wanted to keep track.

Questions to owners of large Spoos in this forum : At what age did you spay-neuter your boy or girl?

Merci


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Dude is mucho mongo and we just had him fixed at age five.


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## LSK (Nov 27, 2012)

Thank you BorderKelpie, He was such an amazing pal who was a soulmate of mine for sure. He stayed with me while I was in my studio painting, he followed me where ever I went in the house. He and I were basically tied together at the hip. He loved everyone too. I just don't know this brave new world without him. It is a duller landscape and a very sad one. I so love my big guy..my husband and son have the same special connection to him too. The hardest thing in my life was holding him at his last moments. But I could not betray my soulmate by walking away when we were always together simply for my selfish reasons. I hope I get those last tragic moments, even though peaceful in nature, out of my head.....


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## LSK (Nov 27, 2012)

JulietCr1---So if you have what will be a large spoo, say tall (never measured him but he could put his pointy nose in my 6'3 husbands crotch and make him jump!) and 80 lbs at maturity, when would have been the ideal time to have him neutured? Would have my Charley been less tall and heavy in weight? He was extremely lean at 80lbs. I kept him that way since he was diagnosed as a pup. I just want to learn.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Lou is 6 months old.. at 5.5 months old she was a bit above 50lbs ands 24'' to the shoulder.

I'm worried now.... I wanted a big dog, BUT I DID NOT SEARCH SPECIFICALLY FOR ONE.. THIS WAS THE 1ST BREEDER WE WENT TO. LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT!! She is just perfect!!

(She wiggles her but when she walks, but definitely seems to have the poodle prancin' walk ... ) 
I just hope she is healthy and will live forever....
- mmm ok... live a long life 

http://s1281.beta.photobucket.com/user/Loustandardpoodle/media/louwalk-1.mp4.html

Here is a few pictures of her => My husband is 6'3'' as well.. 
I will keep her lean then, if that's what you guys recommend.. I've been reading obsessively about standard poodles, but there is soooo much more to learn, thanks for all the info!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Getting a pup from careful breeding is far more important than size!


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

LSK---I am sorry for your lost and would not want you to feel guilty if your big boy was neutered early. The studies I read says that dogs who are spayed-neutered early are FREQUENTLY taller and heavier so not all of them are.

I can`t answer your question about the ideal age to neuter or if your boy would have been lest tall and heavier because I don`t know. I can tell you what my breeder told me "if Sushi is not humping everything and not showing any other bad sexual behaviors wait as long as you can". My contract states that I need to do it before he is 18 months so I will try to wait until then. If he shows bad sexual behaviors before I will have him neutered.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Getting a pup from careful breeding is far more important than size!


I cannot agree with this more! I have one huge girl, 28 inches tall. She is a very, very lean 63lbs because I worry about hip displasia (she originally came from a pretty deadbeat breeder and has HD in her background; I adopted her from rescue at 2 years old and she was 20lbs overweight, so it's a huge concern for me). I definitely agree that for any poodle (or dog for that matter), but especially for the larger ones, keeping them fit and lean is the way to go to help avoid joint problems. 

Breeders, even those that typically breed "smaller" spoos, will occassionally have a larger litter, or one or two much larger puppies in a litter. Size becomes a problem when that's the only thing the breeder cares anything about (as with ANYTHING: conformation/structure, color, personality, health; if you only pay attention to one, all of the others end up lacking severely). Find a well-versed breeder who is focusing on all aspects of the poodle, who also tends to have poodles in the size you like, and you will be fine. 

I will say, I think my big girl would be much, MUCH prettier if she were about 25 inches tall. She is proportionate (28 inches long too), has decent structure, tailset, hind end angulation, a bit of a steep shoulder but not the worst I've seen. She'd be a nice female except that she's so large, she just ends up looking like a big clutz. She also isn't graceful at all; she's very clumsy and tends to have no idea where her feet or body are. I personally prefer the size of my 22 inch female so much that any spoos I get from here on out will be that size, approximately of course.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Sookster said:


> I cannot agree with this more! I have one huge girl, 28 inches tall. She is a very, very lean 63lbs because I worry about hip displasia (


Do you have pictures? I just love all spoos. And Id like to see a big female spoo since I think mine is going to be pretty big... 

*This is Lou at almost 7 months old on a king size bed . Im worried about her health being so big*.







[/url] Lou huge 7month puppy trashes blankets then crashes (king size bed) by Lou Standard Poodle, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Lou said:


> Do you have pictures? I just love all spoos. And Id like to see a big female spoo since I think mine is going to be pretty big...
> 
> *This is Lou at almost 7 months old on a king size bed . Im worried about her health being so big*.


I have lots of photos, but none really show her size that well. I will attach a few here. Some of these aren't great photos, but may help to see how big she is. I'm 5'3, and the man in one of the photos is about 5'7. 

I would just keep Lou lean and fit, and hope for the best. That's really all you can do. Bloat is another huge concern of mine (Nova has a lot of excess gas, like, way more than normal for a dog). She's raw fed and kept quiet after meals. You do what you can, and you can't let it worry you too much.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Sookster said:


> I have lots of photos, but none really show her size that well. I will attach a few here. Some of these aren't great photos, but may help to see how big she is. I'm 5'3, and the man in one of the photos is about 5'7. I would just keep Lou lean and fit, and hope for the best. That's really all you can do. Bloat is another huge concern of mine (Nova has a lot of excess gas, like, way more than normal for a dog). She's raw fed and kept quiet after meals. You do what you can, and you can't let it worry you too much.


Thanks for the info and pictures! the pictures are great in my opninion :act-up:


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Lou is getting so big, I hope she it wont impact her health. She is 7 months old on this picture...









[/url] Lou huge poodle puppy at 7 months by Lou Standard Poodle, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

She is a beautiful girl! (So are you, lol) Are you in contact with her breeder much? You could find out if any of her poodle relatives have problems. Not all big dogs have problems, so her lineage is probably more important to her health than her size. Anyway she is turning out so nice! I can hardly wait to see what she looks like when she's grown up.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

So far, Nova hasn't had any health problems, other than extreme gassiness which I have not been able to fix with diet. Not sure what's causing it. I hope she stays healthy, she has good hips (had them x-rayed a few months back) and I keep her at a healthy weight. Hopefully, Lou will remain a picture of health for the rest of her life  Indiana makes a good point, you can find out a lot by looking at the pedigree and contacting the breeder. Nova was a rescue, but she is AKC registered and I've tracked her pedigree. Lots of hip, eye, and heart problems in her background, so we play the waiting game and I do what I can to contribute to good health (good diet, lots of exercise, good weight, minimal vaccines, etc etc).


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

Thanks so much for your responses! I still havent sent in her papers yet, i have to get a money order or cashiers check and I just forget because of being busy with work, her /folder/ with all her stuff is a drawer.. Im ashamed LOL I really am curious about her background.... Thanks for the compliments as well  I will also contact the breeder, she is really nice, she'll wanna see more pictures of Lou too :-D


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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