# The BBC chooses to showcase dangerous training methods



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

The BBC iPlayer link doesn't work here in Canada. But THIS one does.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

International comments also welcome! The BBC has an international reputation to maintain, after all.

Last night's episode showed some happy dogs in his back yard, a firm denunciation by a representative of the Dog's Trust (a well respected dog welfare charity), a diplomatic rejection of his methods by the show's own resident vet (backed up by a bemused Liza Minnelli, guesting on the show), and the clear discomfort of the dog-loving presenter. And weasel words from the young man himself, with dogs draped artistically around him, still arrogantly convinced that he is in the right.

It has given a huge boost to demands for some kind of certification of those offering dog training and behaviour modification services, which is one good thing, but as we know, the mere fact of appearing on television is enough to bestow expert status in all too many people's eyes.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I saw this on Victoria Stillwell's Facebook and I assume she's referring to this:

Victoria Stilwell
I'm worried now that the family is in danger of getting bitten by their JR after the abusive techniques that were used by Jordan shelley on the BBC's One Show and if so the JR will get put down. If anyone knows who the family is, please tell them that I will come over to England free of charge and teach them how to stop their dog guarding in a humane and beautifully effective way. No point in just complaining, I want to save this dog and this family. Please send this to everyone you know.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Hmm... it looks like that guy is a Cesar Millan wanna-be?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Absolutely, ladybird - right down to the chainlink fence, the pool and the treadmill!

It has just been announced that, following the wave of complaints, this item has been pulled from the programme. The big question now is how it ever got on there in the first place!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Yeh... but he doesn't seem to have Cesar's experience or the method right... it just seemed like he was trying to copy him without knowing exactly what he was doing (that's what I saw anyway, watching him with the Jack Russel)

Maybe with the popularity of Cesar Millan in the UK, wanna-be's are trying to step into the spotlight with the same 'methods', that's how he got there? My advice would be to leave it to the man himself, especially where aggressive cases are involved (as this is where people can get hurt if they don't know _exactly_ what they are doing). That's why it says not to try the techniques on the show!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think he - or his producers - were definitely positioning him as the UK's answer to CM. However practically the whole UK dog training and behaviour establishment is committed to reward based training methods, and against coercion. This episode brought together practically every dog welfare organisation in the country, plus all the well known trainers, plus most of the major dog rescues. Given the usual bickering between them, it was extraordinary. It also got me onto Facebook, which is probably even more extraordinary!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Yep, that's what it looked like to me... and you're right about reward-based training... BUT sometimes, like in extreme cases, it doesn't work and another approach is needed. That's kind of the point of CM's method I think, to use dog psychology (what THEY would do to each other to correct the situation... discipline which is not the same as punishment... like the mother with her pups) as opposed to human psychology (rewards only for the good behaviour - but they don't reward each other with treats, this is what WE give them) in those kind of situations where the treats aren't working. I know there is a lot of debate among the two schools of thought though... but I believe both are important and useful in the right situations and with the right know-how to carry it out! Unlike this fella of course - didn't look like he knew exactly what he was doing to be honest!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I won't argue, but can I point you to this site: Welfare in Dog Training for a very good summary of the current research on dominance theory and coersive training.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

fjm said:


> It also got me onto Facebook, which is probably even more extraordinary!


Glad to hear it, fjm.  Whatever it takes, eh?  lol


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

fjm said:


> I won't argue, but can I point you to this site: Welfare in Dog Training for a very good summary of the current research on dominance theory and coersive training.


Yes, I don't agree with using fear or pain on any animal, and neither does CM for that matter! I watch the show, have read a book or two, he uses what he calls energy/body language, and 'touch' to redirect the dog's attention if it is doing something undesirable (kind of like a firm poke usually... certainly not painful like biting down on its ear or something, lol). And it seems to work anyway, the dogs are certainly not afraid of him if you watch the show... they actually gravitate towards him once he shows them the calm state he wants the animal to be in and they realise this is all he is asking them to do. And that's what it's all about, making the animal calm ('balanced') in any situation. If anyone thinks he's using pain or fear... you need to maybe watch the show more and study it for yourself. I think some people have got the wrong idea from seeing clips of him dealing with really aggressive cases which were attacking other dogs/himself or whatever and required very firm redirection in order to stop the attack (it would be dangerous not to address it!)... and then they judge everything based on that, as if that's all he does with all cases!

Also, the dominance thing is misunderstood. Aggression does not equal dominance - dominance is about projecting a calm and assertive body language. There is a difference, people

Anyway... point is, leave it to the experts if you don't know what you are doing, that goes for most things!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have found it best to stay out of CM debates - the Welfare in Dog Training site says it far better than I ever could!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Yeh I read that page but they equate dominance with aggression/fear/pain. It's not the same thing... dominance means you are giving direction in a calm and assertive fashion (which is the technique CM uses, always). For example, a teacher is dominant over his or her classroom. The students are submissive (which means taking directions)

Now... did the study look at calm and assertive direction/discipline given to the dogs? Not that I saw unfortunately... they should study that! Myself, I've found dogs will gladly follow that kind of leadership. If you have to poke them to get their attention off something they are fixating on or whatever, it doesn't make them afraid, it makes them sit down and look at you for further instruction if they are the submissive type. It's emulating what a mother would do with misbehaving pups essentially (is that coercion what she does?)

Good comment made under the first linked page by the way... what that Jordan fella was doing was NOT what CM would have done... here's the comment quoted:

-------------------------------
Kate MacNaughton-Hughes said...

I have been training dogs with behavioural issues (specialising in aggression) for more than 20 years and can only describe the segment as barbaric.
Your trainer - and I use the term loosely!! - claims to follow Cesar Millan's methods. I have watched Cesar Millan working - in person and believe he would be equally disgusted by the claims made. The methods used had absolutely no resemblance to anything Mr Millan would place his name near.
I have never in all the extreme cases I have worked with ever resorted to the outright bullying, fear mongering tactics displayed in that segment.
I am the proud owner of 7 large dogs, passed to me with issues of one sort or another and I would never allow anyone to behave in that fashion towards animals in my care, I pity the gullible family who will now have to live with the damage done to their beloved pet!!
I work extensively with local rescues helping to rehabilitate (some rather large) dogs with issues more extreme than you showed and I find encouraging and supporting the dogs and handlers to find a balanced approach to that rehabilitation is far more valuable and longlasting a technique than anything your show promoted.
When a company claiming a reputation of fairness promotes this sort of animal cruelty you cannot be surprised at the outcome, where was the care for the animal or the explanation of how the dog sees the situation.
One of the principals I (and because it seems relevant to you - Cesar Millan) promote beyond all others is that your dog must TRUST you. How can you trust a bully?? Beating a dog into submission albeit mostly a verbal beating would see a member of the general public subject to prosecution by the RSPCA and I await with baited breath their response to Jordan Shelley's actions!
I sincerely hope to never hear this man’s name mentioned on your channel except to hear his resignation from the world of training.
I will also, along with many others, be awaiting your broadcast apology to dogs and their owners throughout the UK, which should come sooner rather than later.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

ladybird said:


> Yes, I don't agree with using fear or pain on any animal, and neither does CM for that matter!


Hmmm, not so much.

He uses a lot of pain/fear methods in his "rehabilitation" efforts. Choke collars, prong collars, shock collars, kicks, pokes, leash jerks ... all these are pain methods. High levels of fear are routinely engendered by forcing dogs into fearful situations. 

He's a showman, with great teeth and tremendous personality, and he gives great tv. 

I read something somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where) that suggested watching any CM programme and imagining a child in place of the dog. It's an interesting exercise.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

"Dominance" has a very specific meaning in animal behaviourism, and is quite distinct from calm, consistent leadership. It has been used as an excuse to dominate and bully dogs, "show them who is boss", and for using training methods that range from the mildly coercive to the downright brutal. CM does say some sensible things - exercise, good nutrition, etc, etc - but his methods are essentially based on old-style "dominance" and flooding, dressed up in talk of mysterious energy fields. I believe there is evidence that he used shock collars to establish his Tsss as an aversive, for example. Aggression breeds aggression - I am glad you have been able to find things in his shows that you can use successfuly in your own - obviously kinder - training, but to me they are just that - shows - set up to show the drama of man overcoming beast. And that is only what we see on camera! To give him his due, he is prepared to learn from other methods, and I admire him for that - young Jordan was very obviously only paying lip service to the concept, believing that his innate "gift" absolved him from all formal study!

Ooops - I said I wasn't going to argue! Frankly, it seems to me that when it comes to CM it is a bit like politics and religion - not to be addressed by rational argument. You either believe or you don't believe.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Hmmm, not so much.
> 
> He uses a lot of pain/fear methods in his "rehabilitation" efforts. Choke collars, prong collars, shock collars, kicks, pokes, leash jerks ... all these are pain methods. High levels of fear are routinely engendered by forcing dogs into fearful situations.
> 
> ...


He uses whatever the owner has on the dog, or he uses a tiny cheap '25 cent' leash which I don't see causing much pain (it would snap with any kind of force applied!)... a jerk or poke that lasts for a second is supposed to just get their attention, it isn't supposed to hurt them. What about the mother nipping the pups then? I'm sure it hurts for a second. And saying you should treat a dog the same as a child is a bit funny, they don't have the same psychology at all!




fjm said:


> "Dominance" has a very specific meaning in animal behaviourism, and is quite distinct from calm, consistent leadership. It has been used as an excuse to dominate and bully dogs, "show them who is boss", and for using training methods that range from the mildly coercive to the downright brutal. CM does say some sensible things - exercise, good nutrition, etc, etc - but his methods are essentially based on old-style "dominance" and flooding, dressed up in talk of mysterious energy fields. I believe there is evidence that he used shock collars to establish his Tsss as an aversive, for example. Aggression breeds aggression - I am glad you have been able to find things in his shows that you can use successfuly in your own - obviously kinder - training, but to me they are just that - shows - set up to show the drama of man overcoming beast. And that is only what we see on camera! To give him his due, he is prepared to learn from other methods, and I admire him for that - young Jordan was very obviously only paying lip service to the concept, believing that his innate "gift" absolved him from all formal study


Yes he is open and willing to learn, it's an admirable trait to have and shows he is in fact wanting the best for the dogs. I don't believe he is the kind of person who would deliberately hurt anything or anyone... he believes in calm consistent leadership, trust and respect, etc. The dogs at his centre are obviously quite happy and healthy and he has rehabilitated cases that would otherwise have been put to sleep... And you have to look at people who have worked with him in person too, they know the inside, what happens off camera and such, like the comment I quoted a few posts back.

Anyway the point here is that the Jordan fella obviously doesn't know what he is doing, you could tell the way he was acting that he was unsure and so on... and what he said wasn't insightful or in depth! And he's only 21 apparently, what experience could he possibly have with that?? He shouldn't be on the show any more for sure

p.s. I wonder if CM is going to look at what this guy was doing and comment since his name is going to be associated with it??

p.p.s. I read somewhere that the Fix My Dog segment has been axed now. Hope that's true


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

CM has been asked for his comments, and Fix my Dog has been axed (if you considered Mr Shelley unsure and lacking depth in the first episode, wait till you see the second - should be on youtube soon!). Many.many well respected trainers in the UK have offered to help Jordan Shelley in his career if he is prepared to learn. We hope he will take up the offers, but at present he seems bemused as to why anyone should think he did anything wrong.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

fjm said:


> CM has been asked for his comments, and Fix my Dog has been axed (if you considered Mr Shelley unsure and lacking depth in the first episode, wait till you see the second - should be on youtube soon!). Many.many well respected trainers in the UK have offered to help Jordan Shelley in his career if he is prepared to learn. We hope he will take up the offers, but at present he seems bemused as to why anyone should think he did anything wrong.



Wait, there's another episode? Any links for it yet?


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

ladybird said:


> He uses whatever the owner has on the dog, or he uses a tiny cheap '25 cent' leash which I don't see causing much pain (it would snap with any kind of force applied!)... a jerk or poke that lasts for a second is supposed to just get their attention, it isn't supposed to hurt them. What about the mother nipping the pups then? I'm sure it hurts for a second. And saying you should treat a dog the same as a child is a bit funny, they don't have the same psychology at all!


Behaviourists and scientists who study learning have shown that dogs learn in a very similar way to toddlers, and the same training methods are equally effective. But anyway, that wasn't my point ... I was just trying to point out that we don't use pain/fear methods on children, who we love and who we WANT to see succeed. Why would we use pain/fear methods on our dogs, who we also love and want to see succeed?

I don't go out of my way to watch his show, but are we seeing the same things?

In the shows I have seen, he has been quite comfortable to add a choke collar or a shock collar, when the owner had the dog in a flat buckle collar. And that thin cord loop he uses, very high up on the neck, can actually cause MORE pain than a chain collar. 

As far as his jerk or poke, yes, pain would get my attention too, but not in a good way. Do you really want your dog to focus on you in a sort of "hey, that hurt! I'd better watch carefully because you might hurt me again" reaction? I'd prefer a "oh, yeah, focusing on you gets me all kinds of good things!" response.



ladybird said:


> ... he has rehabilitated cases that would otherwise have been put to sleep...


I keep hearing this argument as justification for the use of abusive methods, and frankly, it's a cop out. Is the argument that if the choice is between death and abuse, abuse is okay? Kind, reward-based methods could have been used to help these dogs INSTEAD of abusive, pain-based ones. 

I would really like to see one of the animal programmes do a training contest, where CM is pitted against Victoria Stillwell to address the same problem in two dogs, where the show revisits the dogs at 1 month and 6 months after training. 

In any case, the Fix My Dog bit on the programme has been cancelled ... hurray!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

The whole point in CM's basic method is that it's dog psychology applied to a dog... he studied his whole life how they interact among each other and applies that principle (dogs correct each other with a bite, which he emulates with his hand in a claw shape... this is explained)... it's different anyway, I'm not sure anyone else uses that particular method (that I know of). the principle of the various 'touches' is to create the redirection. He often demonstrates it on the owner so they know what it feels like (being touched firmly). And they agree, it isn't 'painful', and anyway the intention isn't to cause pain because if you did, the dog probably wouldn't trust you. And if the dog doesn't trust you, you can't lead it effectively! Check out the fear cases he rehabilitates, it's very interesting how he builds the dog's self esteem and get over its fears or phobias through trust and leading it through the experience

Yeh I thought about CM versus VS but I don't think it's going to happen, not that CM wouldn't want to, but unfortunately VS thinks it's her way or no way and thinks CM is oh-so-horrible... so not likely to participate in anything with him 
(but here's hoping anyway!)

Anyhoo, good thing that Fix My Dog is cancelled now, that Jordan guy really really doesn't know what he is doing and it is indeed dangerous! Let's hope next time they pick a better trainer with some experience and who doesn't push the dog around with his foot and shout at it! (still shaking my head at that)


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

All the relevant videos now up on Youtube here: Rondoggy67's Channel - YouTube


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

I found an example episode of CM's show dealing with food aggression, he did NOTHING the Jordan fella did... not even close!! It's season 4 episode 15 dealing with Marley the slightly feral Shiba Inu. Not sure where you can watch it online though so I have no links 

Basically to summarise: it was a trust issue with Marley. We see a clip of the owner approaching him while eating and the dog attacks his feet as an example of the behaviour... enter CM. CM says never ever feed a dog while it is excited, nervous, aggressive, fearful... anything but calm. So he waits until the dog is calm, puts food in the bowl and invites him to come eat. Marley does so and CM just stays there beside him in order to show the dog that he can trust a human beside him with food (to see that he isn't going to take it away). Marley finishes the food and walks off. So eventually with repetition the dog learns that a human beside his food is nothing to worry about. And he is only fed when calm first.

How can anybody possibly compare that to what Jordan Shelly did with that Jack Russel terrier?? :afraid:


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

But isn't this CM episode with a resource-guarding dog very similar to what Jordan was doing with the Jack Russell? It is almost as if he is taunting the dog in the same way, though with a broom rather than his shoes (wisely ... wouldn't want to taunt that dog with my feet).


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

I wouldn't say so, he wasn't pushing the dog with the broom, just placing it near and holding it there. (I think it used to get hit with a broom by the previous owner so he was desensitising it to brooms?)

I've never seen CM try to push the dog away from its food with his feet or anything else which is what JS was doing unfortunately... What I've seen CM usually doing (if getting the bowl off the dog is the goal) is stand close, think in his mind "the food is mine" and wait for the dog, on its own, to move away. No physical contact or sound is involved! It's not comparable to Jordan's tactics by far I'd say!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_We have a golden retriever who had serious food aggression issues and other resource guarding issues. We used CM's method of claiming ownership of the resources very successfully. We never touched our dog during this process. We simply stood between her and her food or toy and moved around when she did to block her from it. We can now take a bone out of her mouth safely and our grandson can take a ball from her safely. She tried to bite him the first time he tried to take a ball from her. She finally simply gave in to the fact that she did not own these things and needed to be calm and accepting in order to have them. 

I have also used his method for desensitising a dog to things that they fear. Again, we never touched the dog. I have trained horses and they are desensitized in the same way by exposing them to that which they fear and allowing them to realize that it is not something that is going to harm them. This builds trust between the human and the animal. A fearful animal is a very dangerous animal!!

Although scientists compare dogs to a six-year-old child, a dog is not a child. It has instincts that a child does not poses. I think there needs to be some moderation here when dealing with an animal as apposed to a human child. Depending on the situation, training can be dangerous and a human can be harmed or killed. That is not going to happen with a six-year-old child. 

Not everything can be trained with praise and treats. My sister had a doberman that had bouts of aggression that were very dangerous. I can assure you that praise and treats had no affect on the training of that dog. She had to, in one instance, do the same as I saw CM do in an episode. Without warning, the dog lashed out at her while on a lead. His intention was to do serious harm or worse. The only option she had was to hold the dog as far from her body as she could, holding him up in the air by his leash. He was spitting and foaming and was so intent on hurting her that she could not release him until he started to pass out. He was in a state of mind that was seriously dangerous. 

I think we all need to think about the fact that not all dogs are created equal. What works well for one may not work at all for another. For dogs with serious aggression issues, sweet talking them into compliance is not going to happen. Working to get the dog to respect a person so they will not do harm to them or anyone else may be the only option outside of euthanizing them. It is better, in my opinion to train a dog to be respectful and safe, than it is to take their life from them.

I will always advocate for the kindest training possible, but I will not discount using more controversial methods such as prong collars, choke collars, etc. until the dog has been brought to a point where easier methods can be used to make that animal safe to be around. I NEVER will accept hitting, beating, and so on as a method of training. This, indeed, will cause the dog, or any animal, to fear humans even more and become even more aggressive to protect themselves. I have worked with abused horses. It is a long and sometimes difficult process to earn their trust again. I do see a difference in the bite method that CM uses to aggressive methods such as striking a dog.

I have had to put my GRD down a few times using the CM bite method until she relaxed and could be released. She has already killed one of my cats. She was trying to kill another one, and she is way too heavy for me to grab and lift off the cat, so I did the pretend bite to her neck and laid her over. I have only had to do this three times, and now she leaves the cats alone. As I was putting her down, I used a very loud and strong "NO!", "Leave it!" I used only enough pressure to keep her down, which didn't require much. I waited until she relaxed her whole body. Then I released her and removed her from the situation. This is in no way painful to the animal if done correctly. It showed that I was the leader and that I did not approve of her behavior. The unacceptable behavior stopped with no adverse affect on the dog. The cats and the dog live peacefully with each other now. I don't have to be constantly worried about Brandy trying to kill another of my pets, but I know enough to continue to be vigilant though. I have to say that not everyone should use his methods if they do not know how to apply them correctly, but I do not believe that this invalidates everything he does.

I like CM and I like his approach most of the time. No one and nothing is perfect. 

I respect everyone's opinions and point of view. I am just stating how I see from my point of view and experiences._


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Looks like the BBC story at least may be heading for a happy ending - the young "trainer" at the centre of the row has contacted Beverley Cuddy who helped coordinate the campaign to remove him from the show, asking how he can take up the many offers from experienced trainers to show him other, safer training methods. This cannot have been easy for him, and shows a great commitment to wanting to work with dogs - we all wish him every success.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_It also shows good character on his part. I am happy to here this news._


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

It's been mentioned to imagine a child in the place of the dog in CM's shows.... just makes me think how some children could benefit from firm, consistent leadership! I've seen some horrible misbehaving children in stores... very annoying...


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

tokipoke said:


> It's been mentioned to imagine a child in the place of the dog in CM's shows.... just makes me think how some children could benefit from firm, consistent leadership! I've seen some horrible misbehaving children in stores... very annoying...



_I see it everywhere. Frightening!! Parents are either afraid to be stern for fear of being turned in to Child Services or they really don't care. So very sad!_


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I can certainly think of several children on whom I would enjoy seeing a shock collar :smile:.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I can think of several adults, too, but like you I know it does not make it right, and would not do it! I do find the split on training interesting, though - there seems to be a near evangelical fervour on both sides. I can even pinpoint my own Damascene moment - I was in a rather old fashioned training class - my dog and I had moved further and further from the shouting and tugging and "firmness" going on at one end trying to find a stress-free area to work in. She looked into my eyes, and we silently agreed to go and look for a better way!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Haha, like the South Park episode where CM comes to fix Cartman of his bad behaviour? That was funny!

I think the person who excels as far as child discipline would be Jo Frost (Supernanny). I mean, she puts the situation into the child's perspective, is firm but fair with them (and obviously uses no physical punishments like smacking!!), she's so insightful as far as looking at it the way the child sees it, and so on... and in the end produces happy, well-disciplined children who do listen to their parents. I call her the Child Whisperer lol!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> I can think of several adults, too, but like you I know it does not make it right, and would not do it! I do find the split on training interesting, though - there seems to be a near evangelical fervour on both sides. I can even pinpoint my own Damascene moment - I was in a rather old fashioned training class - my dog and I had moved further and further from the shouting and tugging and "firmness" going on at one end trying to find a stress-free area to work in. She looked into my eyes, and we silently agreed to go and look for a better way!


You are stronger than I am ... years ago, I stuck it out in a competitive obedience class WAY beyond the point where my dog was happy, and I still regret it. For years, I had a massive disconnect between a strong desire to work with my dog and a real distaste for many professional methods, and no way to resolve the conflict. "Real" trainers at that time spit on people who trained with food. I remember when I first read Ian Dunbar; I thought he was the Second Coming :smile:, making positive methods okay.


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

Wow it's pretty bad to hear trainers with that attitute to using food, it definately works for teaching a dog tricks and commands and such, no doubt about that. What exactly was their problem with it??


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It was in that class that one of the exercises was to get the dog through weave poles. Several people had already tried, with various degrees of pushing and pulling. I dropped the leash, held a treat in front of my dog's nose, and she trottted through with the greatest of ease. The stress levels of all the rest of the class still to go rapidly fell, as they quickly started sharing treats! It was one of those classes at the cusp of cross over, run by very well meanng people who had loved dogs all their lives, but who still had one foot stuck in the past. Finding a class where the first thing discussed was that no choke or slip collars were allowed, and the second thing discussed was the best kind of treats to use, made life infinitely better for us!


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

I also won't enter into a CM debate, partially because my emotions run so high on the subject. But I also have been training long enough, that I vividly remember the old classes where it was all about jerking, pulling, positioning and pain. When I discovered clicker training, and started looking at training issues as MY mistakes in cues, vs the dog wanting to misbehave, my entire life changed. 

Positive training has taught me how to be a positive person, to work with people and dogs in a way where I look for a small good behavior in a sea of bad (generally meaning people, dogs are easier) and reward it. It lead me to a career training people, and teaching others to be positive in their workplace. It has changed lives.

I've worked and owned everything from true alpha dogs (an unusual find, maybe one in 50,000 dogs will be a real, natural alpha), to dogs who were so abused they hid behind the couch for 4 months and couldn't be touched. Positive reinforcement worked with all of them, and helped them to realize how amazing training was. 

I would never go back to the old J&P hurting methods, and it pains me to see people latch onto trainers who use those with such vigor. Yes it works, but NO it doesn't build a relationship, no, it's NOT safe, and it's ethically wrong with what we know of how learning works, and how much they want to please. It's simple, reward a behavior it'll stay, ignore it, it will go away. If it's a self rewarding behavior, never let it establish in the first place. If it has, train an alternate even more rewarding behavior to replace it. When I see trainers like CM, and the british one featured here, it makes me sad for them - they're so far behind the times in learning, and so sure their way is right. I hope that the trainer in this series really does open his eyes, and that it changed his life as much as it did mine.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

ladybird said:


> Wow it's pretty bad to hear trainers with that attitute to using food, it definately works for teaching a dog tricks and commands and such, no doubt about that. What exactly was their problem with it??


Twenty years ago, training with food was "cheating", and was disdained as "bribing" the dog.

This was back in the day when your pup had to be 6 months old to start training classes, in order to be physically robust enough to deal with the leash jerks on choke collars. Definitely the bad old days!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

oceanrose said:


> I also won't enter into a CM debate, partially because my emotions run so high on the subject. But I also have been training long enough, that I vividly remember the old classes where it was all about jerking, pulling, positioning and pain. When I discovered clicker training, and started looking at training issues as MY mistakes in cues, vs the dog wanting to misbehave, my entire life changed.
> 
> Positive training has taught me how to be a positive person, to work with people and dogs in a way where I look for a small good behavior in a sea of bad (generally meaning people, dogs are easier) and reward it. It lead me to a career training people, and teaching others to be positive in their workplace. It has changed lives.
> 
> ...


Beautifully said, oceanrose.

Your point about the relationship is the one that is most significant for me.

I have a training confession: My dog jumps up. 

I work on this a bit, but to be honest, it doesn't bother me that much, and it's difficult because people encourage this behaviour, which makes it hard to extinguish. Even my obedience trainer encourages him to jump up! It's no excuse, really, but there are other things that are more important to me, so I neglect this.

There is a woman I often see in the park by my house. She has an older rescue and a young Border Terrier about the age of my dog (now 2). She doesn't do formal training, but is definitely of the aversive, my-way-dammit-or-bad-things-happen school of dog handling. I've seen her bouncy, wiggly, happy BT puppy grow into a subdued, excessively submissive adult. 

When mine was a puppy, and the Border Terrier was a puppy, they were well-matched for rousing wrestling/chasing/more wrestling matches, so very often I'd see the BT and her owner across the park and go over so the dogs could play together. Vasco got to know the BT's owner, and eventually included her in the group of "people who think I'm cute and will rub my ears". Until the day he jumped up on her. This did not fit her view of proper dog behaviour, so she hissed at him and pinched his toes, hard enough to make him yelp. I'm not totally precious about this dog; I occasionally play too rough with him and he yelps, or tread on him in the dark, ditto. It's not the end of the world. I didn't even say anything to the woman, although it's pretty rude IMO to feel you can physically discipline someone else's dog. 

But, guess what? Vasco doesn't jump on her anymore. 

She made her point, that he shouldn't jump on her. He got the message, loud and clear. From that standpoint, a small amount of momentary pain got the lesson across very effectively. As a training technique, it was wildly successful. One repetition! How can you get more effective than that? And no lasting damage to the dog, right?

*But, wait. * Not only does he not jump on her, he avoids her altogether. Even if she calls him over. He doesn't make a big deal about it, it's not as if he has a big fear reaction going, he just chooses not to associate with her. *Ever*. If he's on lead and we pass her and she reaches for him, he'll casually move out of reach. He just isn't interested.

So just what DID he learn? He certainly doesn't jump up on HER any more. But he still jumps up on other people. The lesson he learned is "that woman hurts". He didn't learn not to jump on people, he didn't learn that the behaviour was undesirable, he learned that SHE might hurt him unexpectedly, for no reason that he could see.

For me, this was a lightning-bolt to the brain example of how pain-based training both damages the relationship and teaches something different than was intended. In this case, it doesn't matter; his relationship with her isn't important. But risk a lesson like that in MY relationship with him? 

Nope, not in a million years.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

The BBC's response via email to the complaint I registered:

-------------

Thanks for contacting us regarding ‘The One Show’ on BBC One.

We forwarded your concerns to the programme’s Executive Editor who has responded as follows:

“Thanks for your complaint about Jordan Shelley.

“Jordan was asked to visit a dog which had failed to respond to sessions with dog trainers using reward-based techniques. The owner said that one trainer had suggested the dog be put down and this was a real possibility. The owner of the dog was and remains extremely pleased with Jordan’s actions that day and on subsequent follow-up visits.

“Jordan runs a small refuge for dogs, some of which have proved too much for their owners, where he uses a range of techniques depending on the problem and the breed of dog. It was not his or the programme’s intention to suggest this was a recommended technique for viewers to try.

“Last week following the complaints the programme issued a specific warning about not attempting this at home and the following day in a follow-up film Jordan stressed nobody should attempt any such technique without consulting a professional. We also interviewed at some length The Dog’s Trust whose spokeswoman spelled out the dangers of the technique and why it should not be used. Following that film we acknowledged that we shouldn’t have described Jordan as the programme’s dog expert but merely as someone who we were following as he worked with difficult and abandoned dogs. In the studio a vet spelled out the differences between dominance techniques used by Jordan in the original film and softer, more reward-based techniques and the reasons why the latter are favoured by the dog training establishment.

“We believe we have listened and responded to complaints responsibly and have stated that there are currently no plans to work with him again.

“Yours sincerely
Sandy Smith
Executive Editor
The One Show”

-----------------

Weasel words, IMO. I'm not impressed with the BBC on this issue, which is a shame, as I think they are a Force For Good In The World.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yep - that's the email we all got, whether it addressed the specific questions asked or not.

I was very interested in your jumping up story, JE. It got me to thinking how a dog would feel if those apparently random painful experiences were inflicted by the person he relied upon for food, care, company and love. You can see why dogs end up throwing submissive behaviours at every encounter (and still sometimes being punished for them - I have seen that too many times). They end up shut down, not daring to do anything in case it is wrong, and their owners congratulate themselves on having a well trained, calm dog. Ugh.

I too have a confession to make - I sometimes get cross with my dogs and snap at them. Not often, and not very seriously, but enough for my dogs to recognise the signs, and back off. Fortunately we have a very strong, trusting relationship - and when I take a deep breath, relax my shoulders and say sorry, they are happy to forgive me for what must seem to them totally inexplicable, aberrant behaviour. Just as I forgive them for their occasional naughtiness. (And mine jump up too - for all the same reasons, although they do now know to get down when asked.)


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Twenty years ago, training with food was "cheating", and was disdained as "bribing" the dog.


I always thought using treats as a reward was the best way of teaching a dog 'if you do this, it's good' like tricks (or sit, stay, come, etc). I mean, that's how animals are taught to act in a movie and such, right? Positive association? I certainly wouldn't train a new trick with punishing the dog if it didn't do it (the dog wouldn't understand that!!)



JE-UK said:


> I have a training confession: My dog jumps up.


If it's just the dog being excited, maybe try simply bending down and holding on to the collar and staying there calmly until the dog calms down (I mean completely calm - just wait for it to happen). Just something you can try!



JE-UK said:


> he jumped up on her. This did not fit her view of proper dog behaviour, so she hissed at him and pinched his toes, hard enough to make him yelp.
> 
> But, guess what? Vasco doesn't jump on her anymore.
> 
> ...


Looks like he learned to respect her (not jump up) BUT there is also no trust (avoiding her. My mother-in-law's 5 month old border collie avoids strangers in the same way - he avoids their touch when they reach down, not because they ever did anything to him but simply there is no trust)

If she were to work on earning his trust (like give treats and such) he would stop avoiding her because she would become a positive association (she gives treats!). But I agree that pinching the toes isn't the right way to get the message across. She could have just given a firm touch with her fingers (not to hurt though) to ask for space as well. That way it's not painful but is firm enough that the dog gets the message "hey, you're bothering me"



JE-UK said:


> “Thanks for your complaint about Jordan Shelley."


lol! They're thanking you for complaining? What crass!!



fjm said:


> I too have a confession to make - I sometimes get cross with my dogs and snap at them.


Obviously there's no need to get angry, but asking them firmly (but calmly!) works too!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Yes, reward training is best! Not just for tricks, but for everything. I've used food/reward training to teach my dog to like (love!) having his nails Dremel'ed, to come running to get his goopy eyes cleaned, to walk on a loose leash, to lie down quietly while we are eating .... everything! 

But back in the ice age of dog training, where all training methodology was based in some form on the work of W. R. Koehler, the ONLY way people knew how to train was with aversives, i.e. leash pops, physical correction, hitting.

Things are SO much better today. All that left is to get CM to drink the Koolade and come over to the Way of Righteous Dog Training :smile:.

Re the jumping up, if I were to take it seriously as an issue, I would just withhold (and get everyone else to do the same) all attention when he jumps up. Simple. No need to restrain him by his collar.

He jumps up because it puts his ears in prime scritching territory, and I oblige by scritching his ears. Very simple. In his head, jumping up reliably predicts more petting. 

It isn't a matter of respect or not, dogs don't work that way. Dogs (normal, stable dogs) don't have a sense of personal space, as people do. There is no implied or overt lack of 'respect' when a dog enters what you consider your personal space. 

When a group of friendly dogs is socialising, they are completely in each other's "personal space" all the time. It is only we humans that would feel uncomfortable with that, from anyone but our closest friends and family.

It's interesting to compare ... watch a group of dogs (and make note of how much personal space they allow each other), then watch a group of friends in a cafe or something. It's quite revealing.

We can certainly TEACH them that we would prefer they maintain a particular distance. We can teach them to do this by hurting them when they come into our space (as the woman in the park did) or we can teach them that it is more fun, more rewarding, and easier to maintain the distance limits we impose.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> I was very interested in your jumping up story, JE. It got me to thinking how a dog would feel if those apparently random painful experiences were inflicted by the person he relied upon for food, care, company and love. You can see why dogs end up throwing submissive behaviours at every encounter (and still sometimes being punished for them - I have seen that too many times). They end up shut down, not daring to do anything in case it is wrong, and their owners congratulate themselves on having a well trained, calm dog. Ugh.


Ugh, indeed. It does make you realise just how wonderfully, fantastically, unbelievably forgiving dogs are. Every time I see an abused dog blossom into a happy stable dog, I'm amazed. And not a little humbled.



fjm said:


> I too have a confession to make - I sometimes get cross with my dogs and snap at them. Not often, and not very seriously, but enough for my dogs to recognise the signs, and back off. Fortunately we have a very strong, trusting relationship - and when I take a deep breath, relax my shoulders and say sorry, they are happy to forgive me for what must seem to them totally inexplicable, aberrant behaviour. Just as I forgive them for their occasional naughtiness. (And mine jump up too - for all the same reasons, although they do now know to get down when asked.)


Ah, don't we all. Mine too will immediately forgive the (hopefully very) occasional lapse. 

In my head, I keep coming back to a point you made some posts ago, about positive training engendering positive feelings in US, which builds a lovely virtuous circle of reinforcement for people AND dogs. Since you mentioned that, I've been focusing on what I feel like when I come in from walking/training, and it's invariably good, energised and happy. Wonderful!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Yes, reward training is best! Not just for tricks, but for everything. I've used food/reward training to teach my dog to like (love!) having his nails Dremel'ed, to come running to get his goopy eyes cleaned, to walk on a loose leash, to lie down quietly while we are eating .... everything!


Can I ask how you got him to walk on a loose leash with that method? 




JE-UK said:


> Things are SO much better today. All that left is to get CM to drink the Koolade and come over to the Way of Righteous Dog Training :smile:.


I've noticed he does use treat rewards quite frequently, usually when motivating a dog which is unsure about something, or to create a positive experience with a new tool like a nail clipper or whatever. And it works in most cases!


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

Everyone loses their patience right away, the goal is to limit it by taking a step back and asking yourself how you can fix the situation. Jumping up quickly cured by turning your back on the dog till they sit and rewarding it. I also don't mind if my dogs jump up, though I train them not to do it to others. Just like I don't mind them mouthing my hands, but they know others are 100% off limits. I do admire your restraint, my reaction to her wouldn't have been civil at all.

This summer I was 'given' an Aussie/Poodle cross that belongs to a closer family member for what turned into 2 weeks. This dog, had been kept on a chain during the day, and at night in a crate because he was 'wild', a 'monster' and untrainable. 

We were on vacation with this family member, and to prevent the dog from getting left on the chain for 2 weeks I told her I would take full responsibility for him. What I got, was a dog who was smart, willing to please, high energy and completely untrained. He wore a pinch collar 24/7, and was hand shy, and just clueless. Within 4 days, he was walking on a loose lead (with the help of a gentle leader harness), coming reliably off lead, and playing on the beach with my 2 dogs, no longer getting food off the tables, or out of the garbage, and within a week he was accompanying me to a major city center where he was sitting and letting people pet him and behaving like a champ. 

When I observed them later with them, their answer to everything was to correct him, and hit him. To make matters worse, the family member also hit my dog for coming up and licking her hand. Lance came from an abusive situation and I don't tolerate anyone doing that, and I told her so. But I think the most horrifying thing, was watching her 9 year old daughter slap the dogs in anger when they ran up to her and she didn't want them to. Over the 2 weeks I saw all 3 of their kids hit their dog, and each other.

To see that behavior get passed onto the next generation, and to watch kids mimic their parents, learning anger instead of patience when dealing with a dog was heartbreaking. almost as heartbreaking as giving the dog back turned out to be. I had no legal recourse, he was theirs, but it caused a serious breakdown in my relationship with them, and I was devastated to send him back to a terrible situation. I don't think I'll ever forgive myself, though I'm not sure what I could have done in the end.


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

fjm said:


> ladybird said:
> 
> 
> > Can I ask how you got him to walk on a loose leash with that method?
> ...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

oceanrose said:


> fjm said:
> 
> 
> > I teach loose lead walking by stopping when the dog pulls, and clicking/treating when the dog returns to my side, then continuing on with my walk.
> ...


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## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

If your dog isn't paying attention to you, and refusing to get bored with not moving, take a step back. Teach them first watching you is super exciting and rewarding. Reward for eye contact, and for checking up on you. This is the first thing I teach a puppy actually, to watch me and make eye contact with me as much as possible. After that I teach whatever I want their fallback behavior to be - whether that's to sit in the case of a pet/performance dog, or stack in the case of a conformation dog.

Basically make them think that you're more interesting than the birds and the bees. If they get distracted make a game of calling their name, quickly turning and rewarding them with a treat for responding and following you. It should always be more fun to see what mom is doing, afterall, she's the key to getting to go outside and walk all these fun places in the first place!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

oceanrose said:


> Teach them first watching you is super exciting and rewarding. Reward for eye contact, and for checking up on you.


Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes!!!

That's my underlying training philosophy for everything ... it's my job to make being with me the most fun, most rewarding, most exciting thing EVER.

I taught loose leash walking by combining rewards with "be a tree". If there is an interesting smell and he pulled, I'd stop dead until he put slack in the leash and then with a "good boy!", let him investigate the interesting smell. All pulling ever got him was a delay in getting to whatever he was interested in. I also used to randomly drop treats at my feet as we were walking. I still reward frequently for loose leash walking, either with a treat, a "good boy", or even just with my attention. That's the key really ... you can't expect a dog to watch you carefully and walk on a loose leash if you are blindly walking along talking on a mobile phone (drives me nuts when I see people doing this).


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

ladybird said:


> I've noticed he does use treat rewards quite frequently, usually when motivating a dog which is unsure about something, or to create a positive experience with a new tool like a nail clipper or whatever. And it works in most cases!


It's interesting that you mention CM using treats for nail clipping; that is not what I have seen. See this thread for my experience of seeing the CM method for teaching a dog to tolerate nail clipping.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I've waited my dogs out when they just stood, too - and had walks where it took 20 minutes to go a hundred yards, w did so many changes of direction! It was worth it to have them walk politely with me on and off the leash. I think off leash control is the real test. Interestingly in the ring craft classes I went to the aim was to have the toy dogs trotting on a loose leash just a little ahead of the handler, rather than in the heel position, so that they appeared to be practically showing themselves. I taught Sophy "trit trot" for this - she was a lot better at it than I was!

I do think there is an interesting conflation in many people's minds of reward-based = food treats = therefore doesn't always work. A highy stressed dog - a leash reactive dog, for example - will not be interested in food - but then an experienced trainer won't be offering it! They will first remove the cause of stress - or remove the dog from it - and then work on desensitising and building positive associations. All too many people see this as rewarding bad behaviour, and being "soft on the dog" - but it is a scientifically proven method, also used to help humans get over their fears and phobias. The method widely used by CM (in the past at least) and other "dominance" trainers is flooding - forcing the dog to accept the scarey or painful thing until it finally gives up struggling. Not the best way to encourage your dog to trust you, and to trust your judgement! I can imagine just how I would feel about someone who forced me into a cupboard full of gigantic spiders ... in fact the next time they touched me I would probably bite them!


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## ladybird (Jul 9, 2011)

does anybody know if CM has made a comment yet regarding Jordan Shelly?


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