# fostering breeding dogs



## ArreauStandardPoodle

I think fostering is a terrific idea for both the owner and the foster parents as long as the partnership is a good one, is amicable, and that everything is clearly understood and stated in a contract.

Some of the pros are....there are as ton of people out there who would dearly love a Poodle. They may have grown up with one or have kids with allergies. But, some of these folks might not be able to afford one. If someoone fosters, they get the joy of living with the dog without all of the expense. They are responsible for general health care (shots, physicals, teeth cleaning as the dog ages, etc.) grooming costs and food but don't have the outlay to purchase ther dog.

For the owner-breeder the benefits are plenty. I have four dogs in my home, and my partner and I have decided that since we are not getting any younger, and since there are four hands between us, this is a reasonable number of dogs in our house. But because I breed dogs, I may produce a puppy that is outstanding and wish to keep, or may buy a puppy to further my program. At this time this puppy would not be living with me, so a foster family is the answer. I would be responsible for its registration costs, its first shots and vet physical, micro chip insertion and any costs incurred until it is placed. I am responsible for the costs to do health testing. If I wish it to be shown in any field, that is my responsibilty. The foster family must make the dog available to me for health testing, breeding, and if it is a female and they do not wish to whelp litters, I would pick her up about the seventh week of her pregnancy to come here and whelp her babies. She would go back to her foster family once the puppies are weaned. If the dog is a female that is going to be bred, or if the fostered dog is male and is going to be used at stud, the foster family should live within an hours drive of me so I can get to the quickly.

The benfits are huge, if it is done right. I dont feel anyone should have so many dogs that any of them get lost in the shuffle or become part of the woodwork. I feel every dog should feel like a valued, cherished part of a loving family. So, in order for my plans to come to fruition, I will constantly be needing more breeding dogs, but if I had them all here, I would be over run with canines which would not be fair to them. I am also anti-kennel dogs as I think that life tends to suck for the dogs. So, a foster family is the perfect solution.

My boy Flynn is fostered by my sister and her family. He is the joy of their hearts, and beloved by the entire family. He goes for four walks a day, goes to the dog park, snuggles into bed with them each night and lives THE life!! My other male who I co-own with my best breeder friend, lives with a friend of one of my puppy buyers. He has two human sisters and all four people in his new family adore him. If they lived in a breeding home with tons of dogs, they could not possibly get the affection or attention they get in these homes. If they were kennel dogs, their lives would be totally different.

Trusting someone to take your precious breeding dog is a whole other story. You need a rock solid contract which protects this dogs at all costs. Communication is key. Everyone needs to be on the same page with a full understanding of what is expected at both ends. You should be very comfortable and relaxed with one another. You need home visits to ensure what you hear is truth. The fostering family must have plenty of dog experience. They need to have a fully fenced yard. They should provide you with references of a veterinarian and groomer they have used in the past. There should be something in the contract which states if this dog dies from a careless act, that you will be compensated for your loss. I also have in my contract that in the event the dog dies, the body is to be taken to a vet to have its micro-chip scanned, and I want a letter from the vet stating the cause of death with the chip number notated to confirm how the dog died, and that is was indeed my dog that passed away. They must agree to provide me with tons of photos and videos so I can see the dogs condition, stay abreast of its development and growth, and so I can post photos on my web site. They must agree keep it well groomed and fed good quality food.

The biggest con is, sometimes you will find people who sign agreements and are very earnest, then do not do what has been laid out, like providing photos. So, it should be in the contract that you have the right to remove the dog if problems asrise.

I will think of one thousand things I should have added once I hit submit, but I feel fostering is a wonderful solution to the space problem for a breeder if you are careful and ensure what you have been presented with is what is actually going on, and that your dog is in a loving, caring family that cherish your dog, and that there is a very good contract in place which protects all involved.


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## cbrand

In theory, the idea is not a bad one. A breeder can get over-dogged very quickly and if you are going to go forward with a breeding program, then you need more than one Poodle. I co-own Gracy with KB and until recently, Gracy lived with her full time (though that is a bit different situation). 

I've said this before, but I will say it again... there are other things to do with a bitch besides fill their uterus. Breeders should be proving their breeding stock through some sort of conformation or performance showing. Is the breeder going to be showing or working the dogs who are fostered out? This is where fostering is probably easier in other breeds because it is the rare foster home who could care for Poodle show coat. Finding a performance foster home is probably easier, but how do you make sure that people follow up on their promise to put an Obedience or Agility title on a dog? It is not easy to work a dog who lives full time with someone else.

In the end, I think the practice of fostering is being abused by many low end breeders. It is currently very popular with Doodle breeders. Fostering allows a breeder access to many, many dogs while still maintaining the allusion of being a small hobby breeder. I've seen some breeders who have 10+ breeding bitches. When I see large scale fostering, I think it is because they essentially view dogs as a money maker. More bitches to breed.... more money to make.


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> In theory, the idea is not a bad one. A breeder can get over-dogged very quickly and if you are going to go forward with a breeding program, then you need more than one Poodle. I co-own Gracy with KB and until recently, Gracy lived with her full time (though that is a bit different situation).
> 
> I've said this before, but I will say it again... there are other things to do with a bitch besides fill their uterus. Breeders should be proving their breeding stock through some sort of conformation or performance showing. Is the breeder going to be showing or working the dogs who are fostered out? This is where fostering is probably easier in other breeds because it is the rare foster home who could care for Poodle show coat. Finding a performance foster home is probably easier, but how do you make sure that people follow up on their promise to put an Obedience or Agility title on a dog? It is not easy to work a dog who lives full time with someone else.
> 
> In the end, I think the practice of fostering is being abused by many low end breeders. It is currently very popular with Doodle breeders. Fostering allows a breeder access to many, many dogs while still maintaining the allusion of being a small hobby breeder. I've seen some breeders who have 10+ breeding bitches. When I see large scale fostering, I think it is because they essentially view dogs as a money maker. More bitches to breed.... more money to make.


I totally agree with this. Fostering can be a great practice to keep up a breeding program and ensure all the dogs have a happy home life. But it can also be a way to "hide" the fact that you're a high volume breeder and your sole motivation for having/ breeding dogs is to produce a large number of puppies.


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## cbrand

On the topic of foster homes maintaining show coat.... I fully plan to foster all future show dogs with Vacheron!!!!!!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## KPoos

LOL yeah I'm sure she'd totally agree to this.


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## bigredpoodle

Cdnjennga said:


> I totally agree with this. Fostering can be a great practice to keep up a breeding program and ensure all the dogs have a happy home life. But it can also be a way to "hide" the fact that you're a high volume breeder and your sole motivation for having/ breeding dogs is to produce a large number of puppies.


I think I would have to agree with this as well.. I do not think it is necessary at all..I was always told growing up that the world will never miss another litter......But I do agree with the grooming thoughts cbrand i would love that ...
Fostering for show coats....OH YES!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Here we go again. Sorry I replied...


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## cbrand

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Here we go again. Sorry I replied...


Why did you think my reply was a slam at you? 

Personally, I would consider fostering, but as I stated, it would have to be a special situation. I already have an agreement to place a male at some future date with a woman I know who trains Hunt Competition dogs. It is a win, win situation. She gets a good quality poodle and I have a potential stud dog in a working home. 

The part I still haven't worked out in my mind is how we would finish this boy. You have to start a working retriever from the very beginning. Water and training collars = bad show coat.


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## Purple Poodle

Honestly I think its just a way for high volume breeders keep a large amount of dogs with out having to care for them yet breed from them.

I think if you wanted to keep a dog in your breeding program use a co-ownership contract or a stud from another kennel.


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## plumcrazy

The following is JMHO… Some might agree, some might disagree, but as stated it is just an opinion (and after I typed this out, I saw PP’s post about co-ownership instead of fostering… Are they different????):

I think if the breeder and the foster home are both “in it” for the right reasons it can be a great idea (for many of the reasons mentioned earlier) If the breeder has so many fostered dogs that they lose track of them, or cannot adequately monitor the foster homes’ activities with said dogs, then; yes, I agree this could quickly turn into a bad situation. 

I probably won’t be retiring for many years, but I’ve daydreamed about how fulfilling it would be for me to provide a safe, nurturing home in a situation like this once I’m not working my 40 hrs per week job… I truly have no desire to start a grass roots breeding program – I know how much commitment, labor, finances, dedication, blood, sweat and tears go into a reputable program… I’d like to play a part in that effort, but not be the “boss” of it (if that makes any sense…) I’ve always been more successful as one who “helps” as opposed to one who “leads”… which is probably why I’m very good at my “real job” of administrative assistant!

So, since I know that I will never begin a breeding program; but after retirement would have the free time to devote to properly socializing a litter of pups, I could be interested in forming a co-ownership relationship with a responsible breeder – I would not want to align myself with someone who only wants to find “more” foster homes, so they can breed “more” puppies, so they can make “more” money; rather I would like to become involved with someone who is researching pedigrees, following health testing recommendations, determining the best way to move forward to improve this magnificent breed and produce the healthiest, most conformationally correct, even tempered babies possible…

I can see this being a great opportunity for me to use my experiences and knowledge about dogs to help with an already established and respected program without actually trying to start my own business (which I don’t have the aptitude for anyway.) 

So there’s another opinion from the viewpoint of someone who may like to provide a service like this someday – I’m pretty sure I’d be good at it!


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> On the topic of foster homes maintaining show coat.... I fully plan to foster all future show dogs with Vacheron!!!!!!
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


HAHAHH I know Vacheron take Enzo and grow his coat for us as well


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## vacheron

cbrand said:


> On the topic of foster homes maintaining show coat.... I fully plan to foster all future show dogs with Vacheron!!!!!!
> 
> 
> :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Your funny CBrand! I don't think I can handle another standard poodle in show coat. The puppy has thicker, more dense hair than his brother. He hasn't even been through coat change yet! :scared:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

plumcrazy said:


> the following is jmho… some might agree, some might disagree, but as stated it is just an opinion (and after i typed this out, i saw pp’s post about co-ownership instead of fostering… are they different????):
> 
> I think if the breeder and the foster home are both “in it” for the right reasons it can be a great idea (for many of the reasons mentioned earlier) if the breeder has so many fostered dogs that they lose track of them, or cannot adequately monitor the foster homes’ activities with said dogs, then; yes, i agree this could quickly turn into a bad situation.
> 
> I probably won’t be retiring for many years, but i’ve daydreamed about how fulfilling it would be for me to provide a safe, nurturing home in a situation like this once i’m not working my 40 hrs per week job… i truly have no desire to start a grass roots breeding program – i know how much commitment, labor, finances, dedication, blood, sweat and tears go into a reputable program… i’d like to play a part in that effort, but not be the “boss” of it (if that makes any sense…) i’ve always been more successful as one who “helps” as opposed to one who “leads”… which is probably why i’m very good at my “real job” of administrative assistant!
> 
> So, since i know that i will never begin a breeding program; but after retirement would have the free time to devote to properly socializing a litter of pups, i could be interested in forming a co-ownership relationship with a responsible breeder – i would not want to align myself with someone who only wants to find “more” foster homes, so they can breed “more” puppies, so they can make “more” money; rather i would like to become involved with someone who is researching pedigrees, following health testing recommendations, determining the best way to move forward to improve this magnificent breed and produce the healthiest, most conformationally correct, even tempered babies possible…
> 
> i can see this being a great opportunity for me to use my experiences and knowledge about dogs to help with an already established and respected program without actually trying to start my own business (which i don’t have the aptitude for anyway.)
> 
> so there’s another opinion from the viewpoint of someone who may like to provide a service like this someday – i’m pretty sure i’d be good at it!



omg!!! Yes you would!!!


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## roxy25

I never heard of fostering really with dogs ? maybe it's a poodle thing.

But I do know with TICA and I think CFA you can lease out your cats to other breeders. You have to fill out a form and send it in. Then the person who wants to use your cats gets to keep the cat for how long the lease was for. I found that just weird. I know some breeders either just co own or lease out so they will have more cats they can use in their breeding program


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## Purple Poodle

Yes they are different. On a co-ownership the person who has the puppy/dog shows said dog to obtain a title/s and according to the contract made when the dog is bred to a decided upon dog/bitch the breeder has the responsibility of placing the puppies etc...in the majority of the "foster/guardian" situations the dogs are just pets whom the breeder uses to have a litter to make a profit with no showing or titling involved.

I do not like the way the term "foster" is being used I think most people call it "Guardian" homes.

Roxy I see it a lot in Poodles and "Doodles".

plumcrazy I believe some breeders offer a co-ownership on retired show dogs who they still want to use. I can see this as a good thing.


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## wishpoo

Oh Roxy - there are alll kinds of arrangements with dogs too - including that "leasing" part !!!!


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## KPoos

Yup I've heard of leasing a bitch to someone so they can use her for a litter. I'm weird so I always think of the possible negative things that could happen when my dog was away from me in that situation. Say I lease my bitch to someone and something happens to my dog in their care? I'd be so upset that I put my dog through that. Plus that just sounds so weird to lease a dog to USE her uterus for a litter of puppies but I know it's done a lot.


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## plumcrazy

In the situation I was describing above, I really wouldn't want to lease a uterus... the litter wouldn't be mine, it would belong to the breeder - who would be responsible for screening buyers and placing the pups in the homes he or she felt were the right homes... I wouldn't be looking for any monetary compensation at all - just the satisfaction of helping raise a well-socialized litter of baby spoos would be reward enough for me... Maybe I'm weird that way (but I've been called worse!!)


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## bigredpoodle

plumcrazy said:


> In the situation I was describing above, I really wouldn't want to lease a uterus... the litter wouldn't be mine, it would belong to the breeder - who would be responsible for screening buyers and placing the pups in the homes he or she felt were the right homes... I wouldn't be looking for any monetary compensation at all - just the satisfaction of helping raise a well-socialized litter of baby spoos would be reward enough for me... Maybe I'm weird that way (but I've been called worse!!)


I do not think that is weird at all I think it is wonderful...
Raising a litter is so rewarding but watching them leave is soooo hard


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## plumcrazy

bigredpoodle said:


> Raising a litter is so rewarding but watching them leave is soooo hard


I agree and I also know the pain of seeing them leave!!! My years at the humane society taught me SOOO much and one of the lessons that I will never lose is that I "can't keep them all!"  I've actually raised two litters in my house already. The first was from an 18 lb mix breed dog (Jinjer Bear) who came into the humane society I managed back in 2004. She was pregnant when she came to us and I talked my hubby into letting her deliver at our house and raise the puppies until they were 8 weeks and could get their first shots and then we'd bring them to the shelter for placement. About a week and 1/2 before her delivery date, the president of the board of directors called me and told me that I had to have Jinjer spayed the next time the vet was out to the shelter thereby aborting the litter... :scared:

I couldn't do it, so they told me not to come back to work... I kept Jinjer and she had 6 beautiful babies on the day before Halloween in 2004... Since I was unemployed :doh: I had lots of time to be with the babies! One of the babies was adopted by a high school classmate of mine and I get regular updates and Jinjer was adopted by one of my co-workers who lives 1 block from me so I get to see her often, too! 

The other litter I raised was a litter of 5 purebred dachshund puppies from a bitch who the owners were giving away, knowing she was already bred to their long hair male dachsund... I called Jillian's Haven (a local rescue I foster for) and the founder actually placed the puppies and mom, Stevie, when it was time... I miss them all, but I still have my pack to fill my heart.

These experiences have shown me that I have what it takes to raise a great litter of babies and still be able to let them go to great homes (although it does hurt when they leave and I miss them) 

Geez - I'm taking a lot today... Must've had my Wheaties this morning!


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## bigredpoodle

I sold a puppy to a lady who fosters for the Ark in Phoenix . She loves her Leah so much ! She cried like a baby and so did I when she left my house with her.. She knew how hard it was for me to part with her... But what a great home !!!! That does make is so much easier ...


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## wishpoo

Yes dear Plum : ))- but that kind of arrangement that you are talking about is very rare - those deals are made as business arrangements and nothing else. It is completely different of what you are offering :flowers:


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## frostfirestandards

I think..maybe it would be called whelping assistants or something lol 

people who take your female, and take care of her and her babies- making sure the pups are well socialized would be a godsend to alot of people. Its hard to take a litter on the road with you if you are actively showing/titling dogs, if you have 5 adults, that is WAY different from having 5 puppies. 

I think it is a good idea if you are busy doing lots of things with your dogs, to allow someone to socialize them, raise them ect. and its a nice way for someone to "get" a nice dog in return, but I do think that there needs to be a firm, airtight agreement in place


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## Poodle Lover

Hummm, let me see if I get this right. (scratching my head).

I get this great dog for "free", that is no payment for the dog and I get a great dog, but I have to pay for all his shots, food, medical bills, grooming and then the breeder gets my foster dog back to breed it and sell off oh I don't know 5 to 10 puppies for profit..... How many times would the dog be bred, once, twice, three times. What about showing, show coat grooming, etc. Wow, doesn't sound like such a great deal to me.


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## puppylove

I pretty much agree with Poodle Lover. Looks like the breeder risks very little money and effort but stands to gain the most. Besides the companionship of a beautiful dog (which could be had for a lot less than show coat grooming), do the fosters get anything for the time and money to care for your dog?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If we are talking conformation show dog, I am sure the breeder would either look after the grooming or pay for it. UKC shown dogs are not to have continental clips. The standard says no more than 1`of coat. Or it could be an obedience or agility dog. I would never dream of asking a foster family to maintain show coat for a CKC shown dog!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

If I were to buy a bitch with breeding rights and own her outright, I COULD be looking at $4000-$5,000, so I think it is still an awesome deal for a foster family if they want a Poodle but cannot afford one.


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## Olie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If I were to buy a bitch with breeding rights and own her outright, I COULD be looking at $4000-$5,000, so I think it is still an awesome deal for a foster family if they want a Poodle but cannot afford one.


I agree with this. I am not going into all the details I don't want to get caught up in where this could go. 

There are different ways of looking at this. People can abuse this and "hide behind" their foster home on what they are doing - whcih would be bad, but if the program is ran well and the breeder and family fostering are working together - it can have good results. Some dogs will not even be bred because a good breeder will determine this well down the road.


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## cbrand

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If I were to buy a bitch with breeding rights and own her outright, I COULD be looking at $4000-$5,000, so I think it is still an awesome deal for a foster family if they want a Poodle but cannot afford one.


$4000-$5000? Who is charging this much? Who is paying it? (I think they got jacked!)

Even on either coasts the going rate is $2000-$3000 for a well bred Poodle with full registration. I imagine that a couple of the really big name kennels, like Ale Kai, charge more but then Ale Kai has had a number of Westminster (multiple Group 1 and BOV) and PCA (BOB) winners. In the middle of the country, you can pick up a show bred, full registration Poodle for around $1500.

Frankly the idea of paying for "breeding rights" gives me the shivers. I hate the fact that a buyer can pay an extra fee and then suddenly their puppy is somehow magically breeding quality. I prefer the system where a Poodle is co-owned until she is finished and then sole ownership is transferred.

Oh... and in UKC you absolutely can show in a Continental. Here is the UKC standard:
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/StandardPoodleRevisedJuly12009


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## KPoos

Yeah I thought that I'd seen dogs in continental in UKC.


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> Oh... and in UKC you absolutely can show in a Continental. Here is the UKC standard:
> http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/StandardPoodleRevisedJuly12009


Yeah I just read that I was about to say they do allow CC because I am bringing Enzo in CC for this weekends UKC show lol

90% of UKC poodles wil be in sporting clip. But that does not mean you can't have your dog in CC


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Okay....you CAN and you HAVE TO are two entiely different things. I have as friend in NY who just got a Grand Champion on her parti boy last weekend, and he is in a sporting clip. She read the rules to me, and what she read me said "No more than 1" of coat" so yes osme are shown with long coats but the should be asked to remove all but an inch of coat, if she read it correctly. Aren't they in the gun dog class? So wouldn't it make sense they be short? Anyway, sorry if I got the info wrong, but that is what I was told.

And there are lots of breeders in Canada charging that for a breeding bitch. Pendragon Poodles charges $2,600 for a puppy who has been spayed or neutered at six weeks of age. If you go to their web site, you will see their price structure, so you can imagine what some with their mindset charge for a breeding dog? (Although they dont sell any) When Holly became, the people I got her from put a value on her of $4,000 in 2005.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Kpoos, your new avatar is adorable!!


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## roxy25

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Okay....you CAN and you HAVE TO are two entiely different things. I have as friend in NY who just got a Grand Champion on her parti boy last weekend, and he is in a sporting clip. She read the rules to me, and what she read me said "No more than 1" of coat" so yes osme are shown with long coats but the should be asked to remove all but an inch of coat, if she read it correctly. Aren't they in the gun dog class? So wouldn't it make sense they be short? Anyway, sorry if I got the info wrong, but that is what I was told.
> 
> And there are lots of breeders in Canada charging that for a breeding bitch. Pendragon Poodles charges $2,600 for a puppy who has been spayed or neutered at six weeks of age. If you go to their web site, you will see their price structure, so you can imagine what some with their mindset charge for a breeding dog? (Although they dont sell any) When Holly became, the people I got her from put a value on her of $4,000 in 2005.



It only says that one inch rule for the sporting clip only


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> $4000-$5000? Who is charging this much? Who is paying it? (I think they got jacked!)
> 
> Even on either coasts the going rate is $2000-$3000 for a well bred Poodle with full registration. I imagine that a couple of the really big name kennels, like Ale Kai, charge more but then Ale Kai has had a number of Westminster (multiple Group 1 and BOV) and PCA (BOB) winners. In the middle of the country, you can pick up a show bred, full registration Poodle for around $1500.
> 
> Frankly the idea of paying for "breeding rights" gives me the shivers. I hate the fact that a buyer can pay an extra fee and then suddenly their puppy is somehow magically breeding quality. I prefer the system where a Poodle is co-owned until she is finished and then sole ownership is transferred.
> 
> Oh... and in UKC you absolutely can show in a Continental. Here is the UKC standard:
> http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/StandardPoodleRevisedJuly12009


So who is showing UKC? I am coming in the behind on this thread...I thought this was a fostering thread? Breeder thread. I plan to show mine in continental UKC ( If I make it ) as we are planning for the specialty in Phoenix in February.I agree Cbrand the breeding rights thing gives me the creeps as well I


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## KPoos

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Kpoos, your new avatar is adorable!!


Thanks I found it and loved it!


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## bigredpoodle

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Okay....you CAN and you HAVE TO are two entiely different things. I have as friend in NY who just got a Grand Champion on her parti boy last weekend, and he is in a sporting clip. She read the rules to me, and what she read me said "No more than 1" of coat" so yes osme are shown with long coats but the should be asked to remove all but an inch of coat, if she read it correctly. Aren't they in the gun dog class? So wouldn't it make sense they be short? Anyway, sorry if I got the info wrong, but that is what I was told.
> 
> And there are lots of breeders in Canada charging that for a breeding bitch. Pendragon Poodles charges $2,600 for a puppy who has been spayed or neutered at six weeks of age. If you go to their web site, you will see their price structure, so you can imagine what some with their mindset charge for a breeding dog? (Although they dont sell any) When Holly became, the people I got her from put a value on her of $4,000 in 2005.


So are you currently exhibiting UKC or do you show CKC, you sound like you know what youre talking about This makes me nervous as my bitch is in full show coat waiting for the AKC poodle specialty..Are you saying that they made you cut your dogs down ? You have seen this happen ? Or just you friend told you this? How do I find out ?


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## cbrand

> Okay....you CAN and you HAVE TO are two entiely different things. I have as friend in NY who just got a Grand Champion on her parti boy last weekend, and he is in a sporting clip. She read the rules to me, and what she read me said "No more than 1" of coat" so yes osme are shown with long coats but the should be asked to remove all but an inch of coat, if she read it correctly. Aren't they in the gun dog class? So wouldn't it make sense they be short? Anyway, sorry if I got the info wrong, but that is what I was told.[?Quote]
> 
> The 1" requirement is only for Poodles shown in a Sporting Trim. It does not apply to the trims such as Puppy, English Saddle or Continental.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Holly became, the people I got her from put a value on her of $4,000 in 2005.
> 
> 
> 
> For a bitch bred by Mrs. O'Poodle?
Click to expand...


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## bigredpoodle

cbrand said:


> ArreauStandardPoodle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay....you CAN and you HAVE TO are two entiely different things. I have as friend in NY who just got a Grand Champion on her parti boy last weekend, and he is in a sporting clip. She read the rules to me, and what she read me said "No more than 1" of coat" so yes osme are shown with long coats but the should be asked to remove all but an inch of coat, if she read it correctly. Aren't they in the gun dog class? So wouldn't it make sense they be short? Anyway, sorry if I got the info wrong, but that is what I was told.[\Quote]
> 
> The 1" requirement is only for Poodles shown in a Sporting Trim. It does not apply to the trims such as Puppy, English Saddle or Continental.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For a bitch bred by Mrs. O'Poodle?
> 
> 
> 
> I thought they shut her down as a puppy mill is she still selling dogs OMG !!
Click to expand...


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## Dogsinstyle

It's 1 inch for sporting clip. Kitty became a UKC Ch. in one weekend in a continental clip.
Carole


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## bigredpoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> It's 1 inch for sporting clip. Kitty became a UKC Ch. in one weekend in a continental clip.
> Carole


Thank god she really had me going she sounded like an authority on the subject. I do not want to have to take all that coat that I have worked on so hard down for UKC. You know what I mean ...


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## thestars

bigredpoodle said:


> Thank god she really had me going she sounded like an authority on the subject. I do not want to have to take all that coat that I have worked on so hard down for UKC. You know what I mean ...


As one whom attends UKC shows, yes, you can have a continental clip. I've seen several and they do win. HOWEVER, do not use product like hairspray on your dog! Just wash and wear. Also, since it is the Gun dog group, the judges have a tendency to check the feet for webbing. They like poodles because they don't fight when their feet are checked.


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## bigredpoodle

thestars said:


> As one whom attends UKC shows, yes, you can have a continental clip. I've seen several and they do win. HOWEVER, do not use product like hairspray on your dog! Just wash and wear. Also, since it is the Gun dog group, the judges have a tendency to check the feet for webbing. They like poodles because they don't fight when their feet are checked.
> So will my thick and thicker fly ? Guess I better work on the feet then ?


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## thestars

As long as it doesn't feel like they are going to break them. The judges seem to run their hands along the dogs topline and checking chest depth rather then just touch here and there as I've experienced in AKC. IMO they do more of a thorough touch inspection then AKC.


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## desertreef

cbrand said:


> $4000-$5000? Who is charging this much? Who is paying it? (I think they got jacked!)
> 
> Even on either coasts the going rate is $2000-$3000 for a well bred Poodle with full registration. I imagine that a couple of the really big name kennels, like Ale Kai, charge more but then Ale Kai has had a number of Westminster (multiple Group 1 and BOV) and PCA (BOB) winners. In the middle of the country, you can pick up a show bred, full registration Poodle for around $1500.
> -----
> Cbrand... was this your quote?
> If so, Can you do my shopping for me? Sounds like you can find great deals!  *Thankfully I am not in the 'market' for one*
> In So Cal... you can find 'show bred' poodles, limited registration for $2500 (and up). Frankly, I could not sell a bitch puppy with full registration for any price. If 'co-owned' and someone I knew well, I would consider it, but not without a contract of how many litters, etc.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

bigredpoodle said:


> Thank god she really had me going she sounded like an authority on the subject. I do not want to have to take all that coat that I have worked on so hard down for UKC. You know what I mean ...


"She`` has a name. `
``She`` did not claim to be an authority.
I said was told by a friend. My friend was correct. IF you`show your dog in a sporting clip it is nogt to be more than 1`` long.


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## bigredpoodle

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> "She`` has a name. `
> ``She`` did not claim to be an authority.
> I said was told by a friend. My friend was correct. IF you`show your dog in a sporting clip it is nogt to be more than 1`` long.


Well thank goodness I was concerned Thanks for the info....


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## bigredpoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> It's 1 inch for sporting clip. Kitty became a UKC Ch. in one weekend in a continental clip.
> Carole


Thanks Carole Very pretty girl I have a girl named Kitty too


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> It's 1 inch for sporting clip. Kitty became a UKC Ch. in one weekend in a continental clip.
> Carole


She is lovely Carol!!!


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## cbrand

desertreef said:


> -----
> Cbrand... was this your quote?
> If so, Can you do my shopping for me? Sounds like you can find great deals!  *Thankfully I am not in the 'market' for one*
> In So Cal... you can find 'show bred' poodles, limited registration for $2500 (and up).


I think someone on this board was quoted $3000 by a big name California breeder who typically is the highest priced breeder around. That was for full Registration... no puppies back. 

For the breeders I know, show and pet price are the same, though sometimes a puppy back is required. Show breeders know darn well how expensive and hard it is to finish a poodle. I think anyone who pays more for a "show puppy" is getting taken to the cleaners. I would laugh at someone who quoted me $4000.

In my last litter, I sold a puppy to a show home (Penny) for $1500. I did ask for a puppy back because I gave Pam what I thought was pick bitch puppy. Penny has her flaws, but she has had some nice wins against professionally handled, competitive bitches from top California kennels.

Buyer be ware.


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## desertreef

$4000 and still pay to finish? Oh yes... WAY crazy. 
I thought just selling out right... for breeding purposes. There are some that will breed the heck out of a poor dog. That is just too scary for me.


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## wishpoo

Yes - that was misunderstanding !

Show puppy with show contract is the same price as "pet" puppy in CA (usually 2,000 to 2,500) BUT show contract asks for "finishing" a dog which can cost up to 10,000 $ in CA with professional handler , since dogs are campaigned usually for long time due to fierce competition and handlers charge leg and arm LOL

Show puppy in CA is usually sold with co-ownership and no dog can be bred before getting a Ch title in those contracts (unless original breeder needs particular dog in her breeding program anyway)- which is a great way of controlling breeding stock and not allowing breeding among animals of iffy conformational quality.That is what is "usually" done , but I am sure that there are other agreements made also...

Regarding "fostering programs" there are most often allowing a breeder to have more dogs than he/she would be able to have otherwise in a breeding program. They are followed by extensive contracts and absolutely - breeder has an upper hand and the most of the benefit.

There are also some dogs that are on lease or foster in different states and THAT can go out of hand O-o !!!! No matter - contract or not !


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## *skye*

Ok--I'm fairly new to this whole forum, and you don't have to listen, and can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but can I say that I have never in my life see a forum where so many threads get so contentious, and angry. It's as if only a few of you like each other, and the ones that aren't "in that club" are picked on, put down and treated like they don't know squat about breeding dogs! Everyone is allowed to have differing opinions, it's part of life, but the way some people go about arguing their point is just mean spirited!! I'm an admin on a forum, and we argue things like capital punishment, abortion, use of torture to get information, and it doesn't get this personal or this mean. There were a few other threads that I wanted to post something similar to this, and held back, but frankly, I wasn't biting my tongue anymore. I'm not looking to make friends here, I'm looking to learn more about standard poodles, and I sure am getting an education!!! Coming from a newbie, the whole thing is scary, and apt to scare off new members, or have them afraid to post (which is basically what I was...)

On topic; I think fostering is a great idea. As long as the breeder isn't doing it to be shady, and the owner has good intentions. Why wouldn't someone who longs to own a Spoo, but can't afford one, and a breeder who wants to keep that beautiful puppy but has no room in their house do it? Not every breeder is a money hungry jerk. Some just want to make their program better...More bitches equals fewer pregnancies per bitch. And someone gets very lucky getting a very expensive, health tested, socialized pup for nothing! Sounds pretty much win win to me!!!


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## bigredpoodle

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> "She`` has a name. `
> ``She`` did not claim to be an authority.
> I said was told by a friend. My friend was correct. IF you`show your dog in a sporting clip it is nogt to be more than 1`` long.


I am sorry i thought you did not give her name.. I just was concerned no offense was intended....hwell:


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## Olie

*skye* said:


> Ok--I'm fairly new to this whole forum, and you don't have to listen, and can take my opinion with a grain of salt, but can I say that I have never in my life see a forum where so many threads get so contentious, and angry. It's as if only a few of you like each other, and the ones that aren't "in that club" are picked on, put down and treated like they don't know squat about breeding dogs! Everyone is allowed to have differing opinions, it's part of life, but the way some people go about arguing their point is just mean spirited!! I'm an admin on a forum, and we argue things like capital punishment, abortion, use of torture to get information, and it doesn't get this personal or this mean. There were a few other threads that I wanted to post something similar to this, and held back, but frankly, I wasn't biting my tongue anymore. I'm not looking to make friends here, I'm looking to learn more about standard poodles, and I sure am getting an education!!! Coming from a newbie, the whole thing is scary, and apt to scare off new members, or have them afraid to post (which is basically what I was...)
> 
> On topic; I think fostering is a great idea. As long as the breeder isn't doing it to be shady, and the owner has good intentions. Why wouldn't someone who longs to own a Spoo, but can't afford one, and a breeder who wants to keep that beautiful puppy but has no room in their house do it? Not every breeder is a money hungry jerk. Some just want to make their program better...More bitches equals fewer pregnancies per bitch. And someone gets very lucky getting a very expensive, health tested, socialized pup for nothing! Sounds pretty much win win to me!!!


Your hearts in the right place, I have felt the same as you at times but somehow it goes this direction...:rolffleyes: Best thing is to ignor it. 

The interesting thing is if your a mod on another forum - do the mods pop in and request that people get back to the original thread warning people it is off topic? I wish our mods would do that!! It is so hard to go back and research helpful info and you have to peel through icky layers - Sad thing is it's almost always the same topic and same people JMO!


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## *skye*

Olie said:


> Your hearts in the right place, I have felt the same as you at times but somehow it goes this direction...:rolffleyes: Best thing is to ignor it.
> 
> The interesting thing is if your a mod on another forum - do the mods pop in and request that people get back to the original thread warning people it is off topic? I wish our mods would do that!! It is so hard to go back and research helpful info and you have to peel through icky layers - Sad thing is it's almost always the same topic and same people JMO!



On MY forum, there are people that would have been banned, and for other people we would have sent them a PM telling them that they have one chance to smarten up.


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## Olie

I think fostering is win win as well and if people are lucky enough for the right situation I would say do it. 

German Shepards that are being trained for guide dogs are in very similar programs for their training, I have a wonderful friend that does this. And sometime the GS does not make the program. It's not an uncomman thing


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## desertreef

I understand, Skye. I hope you'll see threads that are more helpful in the future.
I wanted to say thank you for having an open mind regarding fostering as you are right, it's a win-win, and the few times I've done it, there has been nothing but joy all around. 
For me, I do not charge for the puppy... and under contract there is just one litter. They do get the pick out of the litter, from tested parents and being I will run tests on that puppy, they are getting more info on it than had they just purchased one for a pet. But that said, not just anyone is 'priviledged' to do this with me.


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## bigredpoodle

desertreef said:


> I understand, Skye. I hope you'll see threads that are more helpful in the future.
> I wanted to say thank you for having an open mind regarding fostering as you are right, it's a win-win, and the few times I've done it, there has been nothing but joy all around.
> For me, I do not charge for the puppy... and under contract there is just one litter. They do get the pick out of the litter, from tested parents and being I will run tests on that puppy, they are getting more info on it than had they just purchased one for a pet. But that said, not just anyone is 'priviledged' to do this with me.


I totally agree with this dreef You would have to carefully screen these folks.. It would not be something that I would do lightly either.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

*skye* said:


> On MY forum, there are people that would have been banned, and for other people we would have sent them a PM telling them that they have one chance to smarten up.


May I join your forum?? This is my very first one, and it has put me off getting involved in another one ever!! I had no idea how someones opinion could be misconstrued and made to make a breeder with a different opinion feel like a complete idiot for sharing it! The hatefulness on this forum sometimes is terrifying. But, I am here now so will stay in hope peoples attitudes change and that they become more accepting of differing ideas and attitudes and that some learn to post with kindness and education in their minds, not just to belittle and berate because someone has different ideas, or is from a country where practices are not identical to their own, prices not the same, other methods of medical testing is available, etc., etc.

I am with you on the fostering thing. I have three females and two males at this point, one of the females being retired next year. I would not call this high volume especially since I am extremely against back to back breedings. The younger two girls are co-owned and are in the most wonderful home anyone could ask for. And the boys are both in foster homes-one with my sisters family, the other with an acquaintance. They are top dog where they live, not vying for the attention of someone with as many dogs as they feel they can cope with and give the ones they have all of the affection and attention they rightly deserve. They are cherished and adored yet still an integral part of my future plans. The people they live with do not begrudge the medical care costs or the grooming costs because they both wanted a Spoo and would have been paying these costs anyway if they had spent $1,500 on a pet puppy and raised it as their own.(And yes, Canadian breeders are selling their pet puppies for AT LEAST that much!!) If you asked them if this is a good deal for them, both families would give a resounding YES!!!

I personally would not be really comfortable fostering out a female who I intended to breed. I know accidents can happen and dont need or want my precious girl being bred by the neighbours dog when he jumped the fence. Of course the litter would be aborted at an early stage (like the next day!!) but from my experience growing up in a breeding home where this happened, the drug they use can throw the bitches cycles off for the rest of her life, so I do not ever desire to go there. But I would foster a female out in the right circumstance. Plumcrazy and I are friends since she began the process of buying a puppy from me from the last litter. She is an amazing, educated woman who knows what she is talking about, has managed a shelter, lives with several dogs, is learning to groom, is keen on getting Lucy into obedience....I would have her foster a bitch for me in a heartbeat!!! Would she feel like she was being taken advantage of...absolutely not. Because I do not hand someone a puppy and throw the contract at them as they are walking out the door. As with Trillium and our co-ownership agreements, the contract is brought out several weeks prior to the actual transfer of the pup from one home to the other, and it is discussed and fine tuned until we are both completely happy. If we could not come to an agreement where we are all happy, then the arrangement would not happen. On top of being a breeder, I have developed relationships that will last a lifetime, and intend to keep working this way. Some of the joy of raising my puppies is meeting people who have similar interests who I can remain friends with forever.

I understand how some people could get the impression that fostering could be a bad thing, because there are definately a lot of unscrupulous breeders who could use this to just add dogs to their program so they can just breed more. And I know from personal experience that there are loads of breeders who seem to relish pulling one over on someone else, and take advantage of everyone they come into contact with. I am not one of those people. I have had two horrible experiences with other breeders since I began this venture, and would NEVER put anyone else through some of the things I experienced. I adore dogs, and enjoy interacting with people who are on the same page as I am and have similar ethics, goals and aspirations. I will be having two litters per year beginning 2011, and cannot ever see myself doing more than that except for the rare occaisson when I have added a girl to my plans and she may have her first litter the same year someone else is having their last. New bitches brought into the program are well planned and well spaced so they generally will not begin their breeding life until the past females are ready for retirement. Like I said, there will be the odd time things will overlap ONCE in a cycle, but this is not my desire, it will just happen.

If you ar ever interested in fostering, PM me, and we can discuss this, and I can give you the phone numbers of the two families who are now doing it with me, and they can tell you thdeir experiences. It will be a long time until I need a foster parent, but if you are not in any rush, and we jive and end up on the same page, with the same deisres, I would be happy to talk to you at length. If you ever thought you might want to foster for someone else, I could assist you and tell you the things to avoid, what should be in the contract to spare you any headaches or heartache and what to look out for.

Thanks for your input and rationality! Nice to have you on board on the forum!


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## Trillium

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Because I do not hand someone a puppy and throw the contract at them as they are walking out the door. As with Trillium and our co-ownership agreements, the contract is brought out several weeks prior to the actual transfer of the pup from one home to the other, and it is discussed and fine tuned until we are both completely happy. If we could not come to an agreement where we are all happy, then the arrangement would not happen. On top of being a breeder, I have developed relationships that will last a lifetime, and intend to keep working this way. Some of the joy of raising my puppies is meeting people who have similar interests who I can remain friends with forever.


I hate to disagree with you Arreau but really our conversations on our co-ownership agreement started in general terms months before Holly was even bred. We got down to particulars a couple weeks prior to the actual transfer. I've got to say it was certainly a give and take process where we both brought up points that were of concern to us and we worked together to get the wording of our agreement to work for both of us. It was a fun and easy process. I really appreciated the fact that my concerns were heard and we were able to sort out any issue without a single problem. This kind of relationship is imo what you need to be able to make a co-ownership etc work. Thanks for being such fun and so easy to work with Arreau


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

My friend...it has been my pleasure. I have so enjoyed getting to know you, becoming friends with you, sharing my dreams for the future with you....planning, hoping, researching... I would feel like part of me had been cut away if we were not able to talk now. I think breeders in general must have a very bad rap for others to be so sure something cannot work, or that someone must be in it simply for their own gain. It has been a fun ride so far, hasnt it??? And wait until everyone sees what we have up our sleeves for the future. I can barely wait!! Thanks for the encouragement and support and for being just as excited as I am!!!


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## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I can barely wait!! Thanks for the encouragement and support and for being just as excited as I am!!!


Me too, me too, me too!!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I know,right???? You are hilarious Plumcrazy!!!


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## Arancibia

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think fostering is a terrific idea for both the owner and the foster parents as long as the partnership is a good one, is amicable, and that everything is clearly understood and stated in a contract.
> 
> Some of the pros are....there are as ton of people out there who would dearly love a Poodle. They may have grown up with one or have kids with allergies. But, some of these folks might not be able to afford one. If someoone fosters, they get the joy of living with the dog without all of the expense. They are responsible for general health care (shots, physicals, teeth cleaning as the dog ages, etc.) grooming costs and food but don't have the outlay to purchase ther dog.
> 
> For the owner-breeder the benefits are plenty. I have four dogs in my home, and my partner and I have decided that since we are not getting any younger, and since there are four hands between us, this is a reasonable number of dogs in our house. But because I breed dogs, I may produce a puppy that is outstanding and wish to keep, or may buy a puppy to further my program. At this time this puppy would not be living with me, so a foster family is the answer. I would be responsible for its registration costs, its first shots and vet physical, micro chip insertion and any costs incurred until it is placed. I am responsible for the costs to do health testing. If I wish it to be shown in any field, that is my responsibilty. The foster family must make the dog available to me for health testing, breeding, and if it is a female and they do not wish to whelp litters, I would pick her up about the seventh week of her pregnancy to come here and whelp her babies. She would go back to her foster family once the puppies are weaned. If the dog is a female that is going to be bred, or if the fostered dog is male and is going to be used at stud, the foster family should live within an hours drive of me so I can get to the quickly.
> 
> The benfits are huge, if it is done right. I dont feel anyone should have so many dogs that any of them get lost in the shuffle or become part of the woodwork. I feel every dog should feel like a valued, cherished part of a loving family. So, in order for my plans to come to fruition, I will constantly be needing more breeding dogs, but if I had them all here, I would be over run with canines which would not be fair to them. I am also anti-kennel dogs as I think that life tends to suck for the dogs. So, a foster family is the perfect solution.
> 
> My boy Flynn is fostered by my sister and her family. He is the joy of their hearts, and beloved by the entire family. He goes for four walks a day, goes to the dog park, snuggles into bed with them each night and lives THE life!! My other male who I co-own with my best breeder friend, lives with a friend of one of my puppy buyers. He has two human sisters and all four people in his new family adore him. If they lived in a breeding home with tons of dogs, they could not possibly get the affection or attention they get in these homes. If they were kennel dogs, their lives would be totally different.
> 
> Trusting someone to take your precious breeding dog is a whole other story. You need a rock solid contract which protects this dogs at all costs. Communication is key. Everyone needs to be on the same page with a full understanding of what is expected at both ends. You should be very comfortable and relaxed with one another. You need home visits to ensure what you hear is truth. The fostering family must have plenty of dog experience. They need to have a fully fenced yard. They should provide you with references of a veterinarian and groomer they have used in the past. There should be something in the contract which states if this dog dies from a careless act, that you will be compensated for your loss. I also have in my contract that in the event the dog dies, the body is to be taken to a vet to have its micro-chip scanned, and I want a letter from the vet stating the cause of death with the chip number notated to confirm how the dog died, and that is was indeed my dog that passed away. They must agree to provide me with tons of photos and videos so I can see the dogs condition, stay abreast of its development and growth, and so I can post photos on my web site. They must agree keep it well groomed and fed good quality food.
> 
> The biggest con is, sometimes you will find people who sign agreements and are very earnest, then do not do what has been laid out, like providing photos. So, it should be in the contract that you have the right to remove the dog if problems asrise.
> 
> I will think of one thousand things I should have added once I hit submit, but I feel fostering is a wonderful solution to the space problem for a breeder if you are careful and ensure what you have been presented with is what is actually going on, and that your dog is in a loving, caring family that cherish your dog, and that there is a very good contract in place which protects all involved.


Would you be willing to send me a copy of your contract, i know how important the contract must be. This is my email if you are willing to help me out, i want my pups to be protected. Thanks in advance email: 
[Address deleted by moderator]


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## fjm

Not a good idea to post your email address on an open forum, Arancibia. I suggest editing it out (the three little dots at the top right will give you the option), and sending Arreau a private message.


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