# Bloat Question



## CharismaticMillie

I know to wait 1-2 hours after exercise before feeding, but does the intensity of the exercise matter?

Ie, If I take Millie for a 30 minute, moderately paced walk in the morning, does the 1 hour rule still apply? Or can I wait 30 minutes?

Since my boy, Henry, bloated I feel like I just can't be too careful.

I will be resuming grad. school and assistant teaching in a few weeks, and I am trying to figure out how to squeeze in a morning walk.


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## fjm

The advice I was given was to avoid "vigorous" exercise after feeding - which to me means leaping, jumping, wrestling, flat out running, agility, etc. within two hours of feeding. I can't see that a walk - or even a trot - would be harmful. I can imagine that if you have experienced it once, you will be paranoid about it ever after, though. My sister lost her much loved black standard poodle to torsion - it was many years ago now, but I don't think she will ever really get over it.


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## CharismaticMillie

fjm said:


> The advice I was given was to avoid "vigorous" exercise after feeding - which to me means leaping, jumping, wrestling, flat out running, agility, etc. within two hours of feeding. I can't see that a walk - or even a trot - would be harmful. I can imagine that if you have experienced it once, you will be paranoid about it ever after, though. My sister lost her much loved black standard poodle to torsion - it was many years ago now, but I don't think she will ever really get over it.


I can only imagine the pain your sister went through! We are very lucky to still have Henry with us - his stomach was twisted completely but we caught it early, thank goodness!


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## Fluffyspoos

Here's some more food for thought.

I fed Vegas late one night, about 12am, and we were up outside around 9am. He was running all over, crazy, happy, and had another bite of kibble in the morning. When he came inside, hot and panting, he drank A LOT of water while I was cleaning and not paying attention. We didn't get bloat but..

I did spent the next half hour cleaning up the biggest pile of dog puke I had ever seen IN MY LIFE.


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## kimstm

So glad you asked this question. My son is getting ready to start school and I wondered if we fed Bella at 6 am if he would be able to take her on a walk around 6:30ish.

One other bloat question, if you don't mind. Do y'all limit or not allow any water before and after eating and if so, for how long? 

Thanks!

Kim


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## fjm

I suppose one answer would be to walk the dog, and then feed using a treat ball or something similar so that the food was eaten slowly. That way you are not exercising on a full stomach, or feeding a large meal immediately after exercise, and the dog has something to keep her occupied when you go out.


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## CharismaticMillie

kimstm said:


> So glad you asked this question. My son is getting ready to start school and I wondered if we fed Bella at 6 am if he would be able to take her on a walk around 6:30ish.
> 
> One other bloat question, if you don't mind. Do y'all limit or not allow any water before and after eating and if so, for how long?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kim


I do not limit water before/after eating. That being said, my dogs naturally don't usually drink much water before or after eating.

If you noticed your dog gulping lots water before/after eating or exercising, then I would probably take away the water temporarily.

We still do not know exactly why or how Henry bloated, but we do know a few things. It was most likely familial. Also, we had been out of town and Henry was staying with a family member. Henry had eaten MAYBE 2 meals in the 5 days we were gone (because he missed us). He was dropped off at our house and given food about 2 hours before we arrived home :doh:. I would be willing to guess he was so happy to be home, he gobbled up his food and the mixture of stress, emotion and full belly was a large trigger. We walked in the door and we knew something was wrong.


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## neVar

having lost a dog to bloat... i looked into it quite a bit after (He was a pitti x GSD) 

And too i was told 'vigorous" activity. That short walks were totally AOK. So leashed walks- or out to go potty etc no problem. but no playing fetch, jogging etc. 

Course i also now feed raw which brings down my worry level A LOT


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## apoodleaday

Lacey bloated February of this year. Her stomach flipped but we caught it early. She had emergency surgery in the middle of the night.
I talk to my vet regularly about activity and feeding as we are training for obedience and agility. I am careful with her feeding schedule in regards to these activities. I don't feed her an hour before or an hour after.
We walk to work (on leash) every morning. I feed her at 7 am and we leave for work between 7:45 and 8:00. Its about a 20 minute walk. We walk briskly. We haven't had any problems or vomitting.
I allow Lacey a drink any time, but I don't allow her to gulp big quantities of water ever. If she's had a good drink, I can say enough and she will leave the water bowl for a bit.


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## CharismaticMillie

apoodleaday said:


> Lacey bloated February of this year. Her stomach flipped but we caught it early. She had emergency surgery in the middle of the night.
> I talk to my vet regularly about activity and feeding as we are training for obedience and agility. I am careful with her feeding schedule in regards to these activities. I don't feed her an hour before or an hour after.
> We walk to work (on leash) every morning. I feed her at 7 am and we leave for work between 7:45 and 8:00. Its about a 20 minute walk. We walk briskly. We haven't had any problems or vomitting.


Sorry to hear you and Lacey had to go through bloat as well! 

Everyone has been very helpful! I think I feel comfortable walking Millie for 15-20 minutes in the morning before breakfast.

Thanks!


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## apoodleaday

How long ago did Henry bloat? Did his surgery go pretty smoothly? How about his recovery? If you don't mind sharing, please.


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## CharismaticMillie

apoodleaday said:


> How long ago did Henry bloat? Did his surgery go pretty smoothly? How about his recovery? If you don't mind sharing, please.


Henry bloated in March. Two weeks before his 2nd birthday. His surgery went very well. Recovery went well - he did develop a hematoma, but it went away. 

For a month or two after surgery, we noticed he burped a LOT. We have also noticed that he seems to regurgitate occasionally since the surgery. Sometimes he will belch and liquid will come out! (ick..sorry!) . Today, he was running down the stairs and he..regurgitated a tiny bit the whole way down. I think we are going to call the vet this week. 

Other than that, you'd never know it happened. He is happy, healthy and full of energy. 

How did everything go with Lacey?


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## apoodleaday

Thanks for sharing  I like to hear how other bloat poodles are doing.
Lacey bloated sometime between 11:00 pm and 2:00 am on Feb. 6th. That's when she woke me up. She was in surgery by 3:00 am. Her stomach twisted all the way over. Her surgery went well because we caught it early. Her recovery went pretty smoothly as well. The bloat ended her show career. We had her spayed in April. We kept her on light activity until mid May. In May, we started our obedience and agiliity training and she has been doing very well ever since. Just so thankful she is still in my life. She is absolutely my heart dog!
So glad you still have Henry in yours. I wish you many years of health and happiness!!


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## CharismaticMillie

apoodleaday said:


> Thanks for sharing  I like to hear how other bloat poodles are doing.
> Lacey bloated sometime between 11:00 pm and 2:00 am on Feb. 6th. That's when she woke me up. She was in surgery by 3:00 am. Her stomach twisted all the way over. Her surgery went well because we caught it early. Her recovery went pretty smoothly as well. The bloat ended her show career. We had her spayed in April. We kept her on light activity until mid May. In May, we started our obedience and agiliity training and she has been doing very well ever since. Just so thankful she is still in my life. She is absolutely my heart dog!
> So glad you still have Henry in yours. I wish you many years of health and happiness!!


I just searched old threads and found your story about Lacey's bloat. It is eerily similar to Henry's story! We also had the vet tell us it wasn't bloat, and then did X-Rays to be sure. Sure enough it was bloat and torsion. 

Henry is absolutely my heart dog as well. We are truly lucky to have our special pups in our life still


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## poodleholic

Brought up on another SPoodle forum was avoiding chilled water and/or ice water, as this could bring on bloat.


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## Jessie's Mom

very interested to read all of your answers. jessie has never bloated, however, i had a great fear of this happening to her. her breeder was not the best so even though they told me they never had this happen to any of their dogs or pups, i didn't feel comfortable. jessie always seemed to have a digestive problem of some sort. nothing drastic. her symptons are belching, belching and releasing some clear water, vomiting up bile, and plain vomiting. these were not every day occurrences, but they were often enough to make me look into gastropexy. i was concerned about the pros & cons to the surgery, but plumcrazy shared that lucy had the surgery when she was spayed and she now knew she didn't have that worry anymore. i spoke to my vet who wasn't a big advocate but she did research and reached out to a specialist and they said there is no harm in doing it. you can't prevent the bloat, but you can prevent (supposedly) the torsion which is the part that would kill them.

even with the surgery, i am careful with jess. she is high energy (like all poodles) and very attached to us (like all our poodles are), but she's also a little insecure (getting much better) so when she is away from us she gets upset. i just thought all these ingredients could be not a good thing. 

she still belches, sometimes with water, sometimes with bile but very infrequently. and she very rarely throws up, unless she is sick. when i hear extra belching after she's been through a stressfull event, my vet said i can give her a 10mg pepcid. 

i was told walking on leash after eating was good b/c it helps to move the food through the digestion process. i don't allow water gulping, especially before or after exercise. i don't feed a lot of kibble as that could expand in their stomachs.


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## whitepoodles

one of my females bloated at 10 years old out of the blue.. there was no vigorous exercise nor any food or water intake.. she just went outside to pee and call it a night and came back in in a matter of 15 minutes with a huge abdomen. I took her to the vet and he tucked her right then and there. She did not even show signs of discomfort but was clearly in bloat. So bloat can happen out of the blue and without any cause. Still advisable not to let a dog eat 2 hrs. prior or after given food (kibble).
Walking on a leash is ok, unless you do this with a fast pace walking.. Some do fast walk with their dogs and it is not advisable. A normal walking pace (not at trott) is advisable.
also there was controversy about lifting the water/food dishes off the floor to the dog's head level.. Now they say that it is advisable to leave the dishes on the floor and not raise them. Bloat is not necessarily genetic but can and does run in some families of dogs. I never give water to my dogs after vigorous exercises. I take it away for 20 min. following coming home with them and let them cool down and stop panting. Then water is offered.
Food is 2 hours later as a norm. I see so many people in the doggy parks brining water and a stainless steel bowl to give their dogs during exercise and I am SO tempted to say DONT do this or he will bloat and I have stopped saying this to some because some look at me as MIND your own business. But am always concerned with the ones I see offering their dogs a ton of water during vigorous exercise.
I also wanted to mention that since I know that large breed dogs do have a tendency to bloat, my vet and I spoke about bloat at length. I send my vet many of my pet clients, and he gave me a wonderful solution.. When he does the total ovariohysterectomy (spay) and neutering of both males and females, he does the surgical procedure at 10 months old. At the same time he tucks the dog's stomach. He charges above the spay/neuter procedure $300.00 for males (since he has to open the abdomen) and $150.00 for females (which is cheaper since the abdomen is already open to perform the spay procedure).. This affords the client peace of mind that yes their dog MAY bloat but never torsion. The aftereffects are slight burping which subsides but the client will never have a sad tale of loss.
I NEVER will tuck my dogs' stomachs since they are used for breeding and in such case one of my bitches or males bloat I would like to know so that I do not perpetuate this condition... as such my breeding dogs are never tacked unless they are finished breeding and/or used at stud. It will not be fair for me to tack breeding stock since I want to find out if one of my dogs bloats so that he or she will be sterilized ASAP and no longer used in my breeding program. Fortunately for me I have experienced very little bloat in my line since I started in poodles. Maybe precaution or good luck.. either way I will take it, over having lots of bloat.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> I see so many people in the doggy parks brining water and a stainless steel bowl to give their dogs during exercise and I am SO tempted to say DONT do this or he will bloat and I have stopped saying this to some because some look at me as MIND your own business. But am always concerned with the ones I see offering their dogs a ton of water during vigorous exercise.


not sure if you read my post, but i was so concerned about bloat with jessie that i had the gastropexy done on her when she was spayed. my vet brought in a specialist who did that part of her surgery - the cost was exactly what you said $150 over the cost of the spay. i was so stressed about making this decision. so many poodle people expressed negative feelings about doing it, but plumcrazy really put my mind @ rest. feel now i have some peace of mind and am glad i did it. 

i do have one question about something you mention in your post. when i take jessie out exercising (long walks or out to run) and the weather is warm or hot, i always bring a water bottle with me. she can't "gulp" from the water bottle, but gets enough to wet her mouth and help her feel a bit cooler. she actually drinks from the bottle - i don't put it in a bowl. do you think this is also not a good idea? i just hate seeing her tongue with the white saliva which is telling me she is thirsty.


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## CharismaticMillie

Henry went to the vet yesterday for a routine check up and I discussed his regurgitation. It is most likely because the tacked stomach has less motility and may be held in a slightly open position, allowing acid and bile to come up into his esophogus. We are supposed to give him Pepcid for 30 day.

Also, I just wanted to mention that the stomach tack can come undone and the dog can still have torsion. It is not likely, but it is still important to take any bloat symptoms just as seriously even after having a gastropexy done.

also - I chose not to have preventative gastropexy done for Millie. Which is ironic because after Henry bloated, I purposefully decided to get a female puppy so that I could have gastropexy done when she got spayed. After lots of consideration and the side effects seen in Henry from the pexy, I decided not to. I felt more comfortable taking an environmental approach.

Sometime I wish I would have had the preventative gastropexy for Millie. Other times, I am confident I made the right decision. Millie will probably not be as tall or narrow as Henry. Also, there was bloat behind Henry's mother. Regardless, I will always be overly cautious with both dogs when it comes to environmental preventative measures.


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## whitepoodles

[i do have one question about something you mention in your post. when i take jessie out exercising (long walks or out to run) and the weather is warm or hot, i always bring a water bottle with me. she can't "gulp" from the water bottle, but gets enough to wet her mouth and help her feel a bit cooler. she actually drinks from the bottle - i don't put it in a bowl. do you think this is also not a good idea? i just hate seeing her tongue with the white saliva which is telling me she is thirsty.[/QUOTE]

Jessie'smom;
I am glad you tacked her stomach. As long as a breeder does not do this to their breeding stock, I am not at all against tacking a PET... and I would encourage any of my clients to have their pet dogs undergo this very non invasive surgery. It is NON invasive if it is done as a preventative procedure, however if it is done due to bloat & torson than the surgery has at times poor prognosis depending on how far gone the dog is. In the latter case some dogs make it and some dont and then the surgery IS considered invasive as the healing takes much longer than if it was merely done as a pereventative surgical procedure. 
Concerning water brought to the park when dogs exercise.. it is wrong to give any food or water to dogs that are exercising or 2 hours prior or past exercise in my opinion.
What I would do is bring Ice Cubes with me in a plastic bag and let the dog every once in a while cool off sucking on an ice cube. This is what I do when they run alot in hot weather, I let them suck on an icecube.. It cools them and sucking on the cube quenches some of their thirst until I am home, calmed them down and let them deflate (lol) and stop panting.. Then I give them water.. about 20-20 min. post vigorous exercise outdoors. Same in the winter. Hope this helps... I basically employ logic in all I do with my dogs and how I wish to prevent having sad tales of loss. Not everyone will agree with me, but we all do what we feel comfortable with and believe in.


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## whitepoodles

ChocolateMillie said:


> Henry went to the vet yesterday for a routine check up and I discussed his regurgitation. It is most likely because the tacked stomach has less motility and may be held in a slightly open position, allowing acid and bile to come up into his esophogus. We are supposed to give him Pepcid for 30 day.
> 
> I have an EXCELLENT vet and know that if he ever leaves town, I am done.
> He has the most amazing dexterity, vet nowledge and way of doing surgeries.
> He never fails. He never had a gastropexied stomach open up on him nor did he have dogs which exhibited acid reflux and regurgitation.
> The odd case is mild burping which subsides about 6 mos. following procedure.
> I have heard of cases where a stomach would go undone but it never happened to any of my clients whom I sent to my vet. He is literally a genious. I have clients from out of town, as far as 5 hours drive from his clinic who come to do the gastropexy procedure with him knowing he is one of the best. I am extremely fortunate to have him as my vet.. Besides ) he also owns one of my puppies which he also tacked. I swear by him and have done so for the past 11 years since I am his client.


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## CharismaticMillie

whitepoodles said:


> ChocolateMillie said:
> 
> 
> 
> Henry went to the vet yesterday for a routine check up and I discussed his regurgitation. It is most likely because the tacked stomach has less motility and may be held in a slightly open position, allowing acid and bile to come up into his esophogus. We are supposed to give him Pepcid for 30 day.
> 
> I have an EXCELLENT vet and know that if he ever leaves town, I am done.
> He has the most amazing dexterity, vet nowledge and way of doing surgeries.
> He never fails. He never had a gastropexied stomach open up on him nor did he have dogs which exhibited acid reflux and regurgitation.
> The odd case is mild burping which subsides about 6 mos. following procedure.
> I have heard of cases where a stomach would go undone but it never happened to any of my clients whom I sent to my vet. He is literally a genious. I have clients from out of town, as far as 5 hours drive from his clinic who come to do the gastropexy procedure with him knowing he is one of the best. I am extremely fortunate to have him as my vet.. Besides ) he also owns one of my puppies which he also tacked. I swear by him and have done so for the past 11 years since I am his client.
> 
> 
> 
> I wish your vet was in my area!
Click to expand...


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## whitepoodles

I wish your vet was in my area![/QUOTE]

LOL I am very lucky to have this quality vet around here. I cant tell you how many years it took to find him.. I went through pretty DUH DUH Ones and others who cared only about their pockets and how much money they can generate... This vet is not only a young genious but one that actually listens to the client and does not make them feel layman or inferior to him.. He works with the client rather than for the client... I have immense respect for him and he has asked me to sell him a dream dog and I gifted him last year with a puppy bitch he named Gaya to thank him for all the years of state of the art care for my dogs and my clients' dogs. He is F A N T A S T I C.


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## whitepoodles

Ok, after reading this I sound like I am overly paranoid! But in truth, I just love my boy so much, I would do anything to keep him safe.[/QUOTE]

Teddytales:
You are NOT at all paranoid on the contrary.. I am also very vigilant and always keep a watchful eye.
Bloat is NOT genetic, however it does run in SOME families. This is the reason why a poodle can bloat yet none of his relatives ever do.. It just happens.

A regular walk on a leash is NOT considered vigorous exercise at all.. I would definitely feed my dog and then walk them on a leash.. and also offer water after the walk.. However I would not offer food 2 hours prior or post exercise to a dog who vigorously exercises i.e. running after a ball, chasing other dogs, etc. any form or rigorous exercise but not a regular walk on a leash this will not be considered rigorous to me.
Dogs can bloat out of the blue even without ingesting water/food after figorous exercises.. they can just bloat and there is no reason for it.. 
On of my dogs bloated out of the blue at 11 years old. She went outside to do her business and came in with a distended stomach later on rushed her to my vet and did the gastropexy right then and there. Was there a reason for her bloat.. no ! she just bloated at 11 yrs. out of the blue.. no exercise no walks nothing.. it is just a condition that happens.
I tell my clients to go and tack the dog's stomachs when they neuter and spay them at 10 months old. I would not do this before the dog is 10 months old as the stomach and the dog itself is still growing. Once they reach 10 months you are pretty sure they can have the gastropexy done successfuly without any complications. I will never tack my breeding stock as this would not be fair and in case one bloats I would spay/neuter immediately as I do not wish to perpetuate this problem, but I do suggest my PET clients tack their dogs' stomachs once they are put punder to be sterilized.


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## CharismaticMillie

Objectively, I would say, do the prophylactic gastropexy. 

But, subjectively, I did not with Millie because of Henry's subsequent regurgitation problem. However, if one of her parents had bloated, I think I would have put more consideration into prophylactic gastropexy. It was a personal decision for me to not do it. Millie is probably not going to be as tall or narrow as Henry is. Henry has a very DEEP and narrow chest. Bloat was also in Henry's family. In hindsight, his risk for bloat was always there.


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## Jessie's Mom

TeddyTails said:


> Needless to say, any type of surgery worries me and I am VERY protective of Murphy since I lost a SPOO at 23 mos to cancer, so I think that allows me to be as overprotective as I want.


first, i am so sorry for your loss - 23 months ? i would die along side my dog. and yes, you are blessed to have 2 heart dogs in your life. i guess we could have many heart dogs because they are all the same, but different. i hope when it time comes time for my jessie to cross the rainbow bridge 100 years from now, i already have another heart dog, or one soon comes into my life.

that said, i will tell you, i AGONIZED over doing jessie's surgery. i asked and re-asked questions - probably to the point of being annoying to my vet and everyone on this forum. i couldn't help it - i had terrible anxiety over this. however, the anxiety would've been worse had i never done it. i am very happy i did her surgery and would do it again to any spoo i ever have that is not meant for breeding. she burps, i would say often, but the regurgatating is minimal compared to before the surgery, and the full vomiting hardly ever. i do keep 10 mg of pepcid on hand. if she's not eating so great and belching, i give it to her and it seems to settle her stomach and she's fine. i also don't feed a lot of kibble. she gets a high quality soft food, vitamins, & cooked chicken, liver, beef, or pork as her basic foods. 

jessie is very high energy also. a very happy pup that wants to play all the time. i know this type of personality lends itself to possible digestive problems. if you are that worried, then please look into it, speak to your vet also. the dr who did jessie's surgery was brought in by my vet because he's done so many. she spayed jess and he did the tacking.


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## kimstm

Whitepoodles--do you think the stomach issues such as throwing up and upset stomach are b/c they had the surgery to early or is that just a side effect? I was planning on having Bella's stomach tacked when I have her spayed, but was going to do that at 6 months which I see is prob. too early. At about what age do females go into heat?

Also, if she is eating Fromm's dry kibble. Should I remove water for any amount of time before and after eating? If so, for how long?

After playing outside...running, catching ball etc., poodles should wait 20 minutes before drinking water, correct?

No rigorous playing 2 hours before and after eating, correct?

If I see her gulping water at any time, should I make her stop?

I was just trying to sum it all up. 

Thanks!

Kim


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## CharismaticMillie

kimstm said:


> Whitepoodles--do you think the stomach issues such as throwing up and upset stomach are b/c they had the surgery to early or is that just a side effect? I was planning on having Bella's stomach tacked when I have her spayed, but was going to do that at 6 months which I see is prob. too early. At about what age do females go into heat?
> 
> Also, if she is eating Fromm's dry kibble. Should I remove water for any amount of time before and after eating? If so, for how long?
> 
> After playing outside...running, catching ball etc., poodles should wait 20 minutes before drinking water, correct?
> 
> No rigorous playing 2 hours before and after eating, correct?
> 
> If I see her gulping water at any time, should I make her stop?
> 
> I was just trying to sum it all up.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kim


Kim, in Henry's individual case, he regurgitates but does not vomit. Like, he will hack and cough and clear liquid comes out. My vet suspects this is caused by the fact that his stomach is now tacked and has less motility. Because his stomach is held in one spot, it might be letting acid leak out. It has been 6 months since his surgery. 

His life was saved by this surgery, though. Since your pup is a female and will probably be large, I would DEFINITELY seriously consider doing the gastropexy, if I were you.


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## kimstm

ChocolateMillie said:


> Kim, in Henry's individual case, he regurgitates but does not vomit. Like, he will hack and cough and clear liquid comes out. My vet suspects this is caused by the fact that his stomach is now tacked and has less motility. Because his stomach is held in one spot, it might be letting acid leak out. It has been 6 months since his surgery.
> 
> His life was saved by this surgery, though. Since your pup is a female and will probably be large, I would DEFINITELY seriously consider doing the gastropexy, if I were you.


I am definitely going to do it. I am just wondering now what the side effects are and at what age is the best to have the surgery done. The emergency clinic from my house is prob. 30 minutes or so. I will need all the help I can get in order to get her to the emergency clinic in time should it happen at night. That is another reason I want to do the surgery.


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## CharismaticMillie

Whitepoodles' advice was to wait until 10 months. This means your pup MAY have her first heat before being spayed and tacked. From what I understand of what Whitepoodles was saying, is that this is best because your girl will have physically matured more and therefore the tack will be less likely to come undone.


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## whitepoodles

kimstm;112695 said:


> Whitepoodles--do you think the stomach issues such as throwing up and upset stomach are b/c they had the surgery to early or is that just a side effect? I was planning on having Bella's stomach tacked when I have her spayed, but was going to do that at 6 months which I see is prob. too early. At about what age do females go into heat?
> 
> Also, if she is eating Fromm's dry kibble. Should I remove water for any amount of time before and after eating? If so, for how long?
> 
> After playing outside...running, catching ball etc., poodles should wait 20 minutes before drinking water, correct?
> 
> No rigorous playing 2 hours before and after eating, correct?
> 
> If I see her gulping water at any time, should I make her stop?
> 
> I was just trying to sum it all up.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kim


From my clients experience I really had not found that the poodles I have sold to them who underwent the gastropexy surgical procedure have regurgitated or burp consistently. It is actually very rare for any of them to show these signs which some of you are relating here.
I do hear of the occasional light burp but to regurgitate and vomit.. never ...
It could be that some poodles are more susceptible to gas than others, but definitely, consider bloat risk versus the occasional burp/regurgitation I would still opt for the gastropexy. No dog has ever died of regurgitation and/or burping however I can not imagine the excruciating pain that dogs who have bloat and torsion die with. It is very painful from what I was told by my vet.
I WISH I could tack Cole and Lola but I cant , ethically I just cant do it as if I do I will never know if they will ever bloat or not.. as such I cant ethically tack them since they are both still being used for breeding. But I suggest to all my clients to tack their pup's stomachs at latest 10 months old.
Also someone mentioned on this thread (sorry cant recall) that it is better to tack them no later than 10 mos. old because females will go in heat at that age.. I have had only one female go in heat at 10 months. old.. Most of my girls have gone in heat at 14-18 mos. of age and not before. The only female I had in heat at 9 months was long time ago when I was also having another female in heat at my house and they brought each other into season. Usually when you have two females in tact and one comes in heat most likely the other will too two weeks later give or take.
Yes folks go tack your poos it is the best thing to give you peace of mind that your dog may bloat but never die of torsion.. Bloat is not what kills it is the torsion that does.


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## TeddyTails

WhitePoodles,

Thanks for the advice. I am planning on having Murphy's stomach tacked, I guess I was just worried about the symptoms after surgery (like I said, I am super protective of the big guy!). It is amazing how much love you have for them, they are really humans with fur!

I really am SOOO fortunate to have two back to back heart dogs in my life. I lost Teddy to a high grade fibrosarcoma on the soft palate of his throat. It literally killed me when every specialist told me there was no hope and radiation would "possibly" give him another month or two. I just couldn't put him through that, so I let him live his life and enjoy every single moment. Teddy LOVED to play "chuck-it". I played chuck-it whenever he wanted as many times a day as he wanted. There wasn't anything I wouldn't do for him. When it came to the time when I knew he was starting to fail, I did what was right for him, and stayed with him right til the end (and after).

I told Murphy that he has to live more than 100 years. No exceptions!


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## whitepoodles

[I really am SOOO fortunate to have two back to back heart dogs in my life. I lost Teddy to a high grade fibrosarcoma on the soft palate of his throat. It literally killed me when every specialist told me there was no hope and radiation would "possibly" give him another month or two. I just couldn't put him through that, so I let him live his life and enjoy every single moment. Teddy LOVED to play "chuck-it". I played chuck-it whenever he wanted as many times a day as he wanted. There wasn't anything I wouldn't do for him. When it came to the time when I knew he was starting to fail, I did what was right for him, and stayed with him right til the end (and after).

I told Murphy that he has to live more than 100 years. No exceptions![/QUOTE]

Teddytails:
I hear you.. I too have lost my girl at 16 years old.. I should of let her go a year before she died but I was not ready emotionally. winter and summer I carried her outdoors in my arms and let her gently down on snow in winter and grass in summer to do her business and then back home to lie on a high cushion she loved lying on near the front door. She was motionless all the time but still managed to eat and have all her teeth until she crossed the bridge at 16 years minus 10 days old. She was and will always be my pride, joy and the love of my life, She is now resting in a beautiful ornate urn on top of my fireplace mantle near the television where I can see and be with her all the time. When I privately cremated her I took part of her ashes and the other (major) part was put into this beautiful bronze urn and sealed. My friends and I went to the forest where Marney used to love walking and frolicking with other dogs and we gave her a burial we spread a bit of her ashes in that forest on the trails she used to love going on so much.
This brings tears to my eyes so I know exactely how you feel and how much you devoted of yourself to your dog. Isnt it so sad that their life on this earth is so very short


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## TamaraS

Just wanted to chime in, while Deuce isn't a poodle :rolffleyes:, he did bloat and torsion two years ago. Thank goodness we caught it in time and despite the fact that his stomach had torsed 360 degrees there was no internal damage. He now has the largest tack the vet has ever done. I too LOVE my vet.

Deuce has no problems whatsoever with vomitting or regurgitation, in fact this is very rare for him.

We do (and have always) follow the rule of no exercise before and after eating. One thing we have learned and started doing after the bloat incident is that while Deuce has water available at all times he is limited to 1 1/2 to 2 cups at a time. If he still wants more after 15-20 minutes then he can have more. This way he doesn't gorge himself on too much water at one time. Our vet told us that water only takes about that long to move out of their stomach.

Knock on wood and two years later he is doing great. I have told him he needs to stick around for a good long time too!


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## debjen

Riley is a lab but has bloated twice and of course my vet says my dogs never do things the way they are suppose to but a couple of things I would like to point out..

The first time he bloated with torsion he did so on an empty stomach..he didn't eat breakfast that morning.. it was summer and a little warm out and he would occasionally not eat his breakfast..we went to an agility fun run..he did his first run no problem had just a few treats..went to start his 2nd run after a rest and he didn't want to run..tried going into a corner to try and throw up..I started to pack up to take him home thinking he wasn't feeling good when I noticed his stomach starting to expand..he was in surgery within an hour..he was tacked during that surgery..I think the empty stomach and the jumping motion did something to twist his stomach..but I'll never know for sure..

The 2nd time he bloated about 6 weeks after the 1st time..he had had breakfast and lunch (by that time we were feeding 3 times a day)..had a CET chew in the afternoon but refused his dinner..shortly after that he started trying to throw up..it was a little harder to tell that his stomach was expanding this time because his ribs were still sprung from the 1st bloat..but about an hour later we once again were in surgery because the stomach had twisted again..it had twisted around the tack so they can still twist even if tacked..in fact the vet had to removed the tack in order to untwist the stomach ( I know for sure she did because I got to watch the surgery)..unfortunately the stomach was so fried it wouldn't hold the suture to retack him so we had to go to a Vet school about 4 weeks later where they could laprascopically (sp) tack him so they didn't have to open him up again .. 

so I guess my points are they can bloat w/ torsion on an empty stomach and after being tacked too..

the good news is that this happened when he was 7/8 years old and he is now 12 1/2 ..he also did go on to compete in agility for about another year after he healed up..


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## Ixion

I am just curious after reading this thread......I was told that a dog that burps on their own, is less prone to bloat then one that doesn't I'm not sure if there is any truth to it. I don't own standards, but my afghans are deep chested breeds and have heard of a couple occurances of bloat. But my brindle bitch has always noticeably burped after drinking water, etc. I do follow the preventative maintaince with the limited food/water after exercise, etc but was just curious if there was any truth to what I had been told....


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## whitepoodles

Ixion said:


> I am just curious after reading this thread......I was told that a dog that burps on their own, is less prone to bloat then one that doesn't I'm not sure if there is any truth to it. I don't own standards, but my afghans are deep chested breeds and have heard of a couple occurances of bloat. But my brindle bitch has always noticeably burped after drinking water, etc. I do follow the preventative maintaince with the limited food/water after exercise, etc but was just curious if there was any truth to what I had been told....



Ixion:
There is some truth to it. A dog that burps does bring up gas and relieves its stomach from it. So that is a good thing...LOL my puppy Onyx burps after drinking as well and I always say "excuse me" !!!
He gives me the look as to say, oh well... deal with it.. 
All large breeds including your Afghans are prone to bloat with the great danes being the most susceptible.
I have done much studies regarding this topic and have contacted a great dane breeder who suggested I supplement my dogs with the following 
purchased from a company called NZYMES Dog Health - Cat Health - Pet Health - Horse Health - Human Health | NZYMES.COM (PT)
I give them 
Oxi-Drops
Anti Oxidant Granules
Probiotics

If you google www.nzymes.com you will be able to find these products.
My dogs get them regularly.. I had not had bloat in my breeding for the past 5 years since I started using these products.. Myth? who knows but hey I will take anything that can help prevent bloat.

Also there is an excellent company in the U.S. called Nature's Farmacy, located in Jasper, Georgia. They have a product called BLOAT BUSTER.
It is a small bottle (or you can purchase the larger one) basically it is a wonderful (and it works) remedy as an EMERGENCY supplement designed to transform large pockets of gas into small gas particles. It alters the space lattice structure of the methane and amonia gas molecules through enzymatic activity.
I cant say enough about this product. I suggest my clients buy this from this company and keep it in their medicine cabinet just in case the dog bloats. Even tacked dogs (who underwent gastropexy surgical procedure) can bloat (but not torsion). Anytime I find theyhave or may experience a stressful situation or when I road work them while riding the mountain bike they trott at my side and I give them a bit of this liquid before and after they ex with me. Hope this helps.


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## Ixion

Thanks for the input! I'll look into the supplements that you mentioned.  

LOL on Onyx! My brindle, Calypso has done it since she was a puppy (now 6) but for some reason she would drink and then come over to you with the "LUV YOU" look, a wet face put it in your lap and THEN burp....lol.....no wonder she lost her puppy fuzz early on her face, LOL.


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## whitepoodles

Ixion

LOL you are lucky you only get a wet face in your lap.. At times Onyx who is still a young pup (8 mos. old) and without any manners, meaning table manners  will eat his meal then drink water and then comes to me to get petted and all of a sudden will lift his face give me a lick and burp straight in my face.. having no reservation about it while wagging his tail furiously.. 
Whata boy !!!


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> Ixion
> 
> LOL you are lucky you only get a wet face in your lap.. At times Onyx who is still a young pup (8 mos. old) and without any manners, meaning table manners  will eat his meal then drink water and then comes to me to get petted and all of a sudden will lift his face give me a lick and burp straight in my face.. having no reservation about it while wagging his tail furiously..
> Whata boy !!!


lolol - i'm laughing just picturing this. 

re: the bloat - jessie is tacked and i am happy i did it. she does still belch now & then - same thing, no shame, right in your face - lol. hard to believe it comes from her sometimes. anyway, i asked my vet about probiotics b/c i know she has recommended it for a friend's yorkie with bad digestive problems (puppy mills ???????), ANYWAY...my vet told me to keep pepcid on hand for jessie if she is experiencing stress. i do and when she's not into eating her food and is belching i will give it to her and it usually does the trick. HOWEVER, i would prefer to do something more holistic for her. so maybe i will try the probiotics on my own. 

QUESTION: are there different types and what should i know about them before i buy them?


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## whitepoodles

Jessies mom:
I give my dogs probiotics on a regular basis. There is a thread I posted on (cant remember too much on my plate now with puppies ready to be born this weekend ....Cole X Lola)
I would put your dog on NZYMES

1. Oxi drops
2. Antioxidant Granules.
you can purchase the above from Dog Health - Cat Health - Pet Health - Horse Health - Human Health | NZYMES.COM (PT) 
and instructions are on the products.

I purchase Digestive Enzymes (to help with digestion and stomach probls.)
from Nature's Farmacy.
google it.
Buy the container labelled DOGZYMES Digestive Enhancer.. It is a white and BROWN colored container. Make sure if you get it from them to specify the color. Get the white/ BROWN only.. There is a wht. green colored one but dont get this one, only the Brown.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles - thank you for reiterating all that info. i will order things today. and congrats on your expected litter!! going on your website to view mom & dad.

looking fwd to pics !!! best of luck with the delivery....


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## whitepoodles

looking fwd to pics !!! best of luck with the delivery....[/QUOTE]


Thanks Jessiemom... I am always a bit nervous and worried before each whelping. Inspite of doing this every year I worry with each one....
I have a friend who is coming to watch/help and I wont go it alone.
Will post photos of birth and after birth.


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## Jessie's Mom

[/QUOTE] Thanks Jessiemom... I am always a bit nervous and worried before each whelping. Inspite of doing this every year I worry with each one....


> of course you're worried. your the mom. mom's always worry. and as much as you will love the pups, you love your dogs first. makes a lot of sense to me. however, i'm sure all will go well - but i am also sure you are very prepared should an emergency arise.
> 
> :nurse:


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## whitepoodles

of course you're worried. your the mom. mom's always worry. and as much as you will love the pups, you love your dogs first. makes a lot of sense to me. however, i'm sure all will go well - but i am also sure you are very prepared should an emergency arise. 

:nurse:[/QUOTE]

LOL oh yes I am ready and then some. I make sure all is put on the table, scale, needles, everything so that I dont have to run like a chick without a head scrambling for surgical supplies etc...
I dont let my girls chew the umbilical cord.. to worried they will do it too close so I take this on. they whimper and cry but I give them their babies as soon as they are dry , umbilicus cut and ready to nurse.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE whelping puppies and raising them.. especially that nutty smell of puppy breath.. Heaven.. LOL


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## whitepoodles

this is my whelping room and Lola last year waiting to whelp her litter.


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> LOL oh yes I am ready and then some. I make sure all is put on the table, scale, needles, everything so that I dont have to run like a chick without a head scrambling for surgical supplies etc...
> I dont let my girls chew the umbilical cord.. to worried they will do it too close so I take this on. they whimper and cry but I give them their babies as soon as they are dry , umbilicus cut and ready to nurse.
> I LOVE LOVE LOVE whelping puppies and raising them.. especially that nutty smell of puppy breath.. Heaven.. LOL


i'm jealous - would love to be doing that with my life hwell: but my life would not allow that kind of time, right now. also, jessie is a wonderful pup - i couldn't love her more, but i learned so much from this forum and the wonderful people on it that i know better now how to choose my next spoo. jess is not akc which was/is fine with me cause i never wanted to show - but now wish she was cause i would love to have been able to get other titles for her. her breeder did no health testing, so i had her hips done to my own peace of mind. just so happens there are 7 dogs from this same breeder (she's in south carolina) right in my area. none of us knew each other before except for 2 people. the dogs are all beautiful, but......

so someday when my life is not so hectic and i am ready for #2 (soon), i will be more picky so that i may have the experience of having a litter, the right way.

in the meantime, i enjoy watching others go through it !!


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## Jessie's Mom

whitepoodles said:


> this is my whelping room and Lola last year waiting to whelp her litter.


i am so impressed.....thank you for sharing so much with me. God bless you and Lola


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## whitepoodles

Jessie's Mom;113373 said:


> i'm jealous - would love to be doing that with my life hwell: but my life would not allow that kind of time, right now. also, jessie is a wonderful pup - i couldn't love her more, but i learned so much from this forum and the wonderful people on it that i know better now how to choose my next spoo. jess is not akc which was/is fine with me cause i never wanted to show - but now wish she was cause i would love to have been able to get other titles for her. her breeder did no health testing, so i had her hips done to my own peace of mind. just so happens there are 7 dogs from this same breeder (she's in south carolina) right in my area. none of us knew each other before except for 2 people. the dogs are all beautiful, but......
> 
> so someday when my life is not so hectic and i am ready for #2 (soon), i will be more picky so that i may have the experience of having a litter, the right way.
> 
> in the meantime, i enjoy watching others go through it !!



Jessiemom:

I really like what you had to say and appreciate you not wanting to breed just for the sake of breeding. 

I waited 3 years for my foundation and 3 more years before I bred her and studied the breed before embarking on any breeding program. 

In the U.S. AKC does not force breeders to register their puppies. But if your breeder registered the litter then you can register your puppy with the AKC and proceed to performance competitions with her if you wish.

In Canada the breeder has to pay for 1. Registering the litter, 2. Register each individual puppy, 3. Transferring each individual puppy to their new owners.

For a litter of ten puppies this can cost up to $500.00 which the breeder has to absorbe. As well, if an owner complains that they have not received their CKC regist. papers from the breeder 6 mos. post sale date, then the breeder is liable to get a reprimand from the CKC and/or be expelled for a certain period of time with costs levied.

The AKC is not as strict as the CKC. The AKC does not force breeders to register each individual puppy. AKC breeders have the responsibility to register the litter itslef for a mere (circa) U.S. $20.00 but this is where their responsibility ends.

In Canada we have to spend alot of money with the litter registration, registration of each pup individually and transfer of ownership (on paper) of each individual puppy costing us the aforementioned amount

Look into your files and/or contact the breeder and ask her IF she registered the litter. If she says no, then you cant register your poodle with the AKC but if she did register the litter then you can ask her for the litter regist. and proceed to contact the AKC and register your dog which will then be elligible to compete in performance.

I like the fact you recognize through years of learning from others what makes the difference between an ethical breeder and one that is not. 

If more consumers will be like yourself, there will not be as many BYB or puppymillers around..


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## kimstm

whitepoodles---your whelping room is very impressive! Thanks also for the probiotic information. I am going to check those out now.

Good luck this weekend! I can't wait to see the pictures!!

Kim


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## CelticKitti

Jessie's Mom. If the litter was not registered you can still register her with PAL or AKC Canine Partners through AKC and she can still compete in Agility/Obedience/Ralley ect. just not conformation.


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## whitepoodles

Kim:

Thanks, I will post photos of the pups . Last year Lola shot 9 pups out like jet bullets within 2 hrs. and 45 min. I didnt have enough hands to catch them all... LOL
Not soon enough I dried one and tried to put him on a nipple the second one shot out and shrieking to be fed


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## whitepoodles

CelticKitti said:


> Jessie's Mom. If the litter was not registered you can still register her with PAL or AKC Canine Partners through AKC and she can still compete in Agility/Obedience/Ralley ect. just not conformation.


Celtikiti:

Thank you I didnt know that this can be done.. It is good to find out and I stand corrected. I never heard of PAL or AKC canine partners through AKC.

I deal only with CKC being canadian but it is good to know that dogs born to unregistered AKC litters can still be registered and allowed to participate in AKC performance sanctioned events.

Thanks for this info.


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## neVar

whitepoodles- CKC has the same thing. 

AKC- any dog can get a performance number (mix or what ever)
CKC - any 'looks to be purebred' but not registered dog can get a PEN (Performance event number?). it's aform a fee- and a vet note stating that the dog is altered, and appears to be x breed.


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## whitepoodles

neVar said:


> whitepoodles- CKC has the same thing.
> 
> AKC- any dog can get a performance number (mix or what ever)
> CKC - any 'looks to be purebred' but not registered dog can get a PEN (Performance event number?). it's aform a fee- and a vet note stating that the dog is altered, and appears to be x breed.



NeVar:

Thank you.. Just goes to show we learn new things every day.
Appreciate the information. 

I am mostly involved in conformation hence my lack of knowledge in performance terminology.


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## Bella's Momma

This thread scares me to pieces! We severely limited Bella's activity pre- and post-meal when we first got her, but then we felt it was much too limiting. 

This is a good reminder not to feed her outside. On occasion I've given her her lunch then left. I know she will immediately go off to play and chase squirrels. I think it was that someone said it mostly happens past the age of 4 that gave me this false comfort. 

I opted not to have her stomach tacked on the advice of our vet. She said she had concerns about causing a problem when there wasn't one to begin with. 

Bella does burp after eating (not always, but not rarely either). I had heard that could be a bad sign - no? 

She doesn't gulp water, actually rarely drinks but does get some water in with her kibble. This particular kibble doesn't swell at all in water. We used to soak her kibble, on advice to help prevent bloat, but this kind doesn't seem to ever swell up.

Does anyone have a good link to more information about bloat? There's so much out there, and it seems no one agrees.


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## Liz

Another site pointed me to the Purdue Bloat Study. It found no correlation between exercise, either before or after eating, and bloat. Has anyone read the study or a critique?


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## CharismaticMillie

Liz said:


> Another site pointed me to the Purdue Bloat Study. It found no correlation between exercise, either before or after eating, and bloat. Has anyone read the study or a critique?


Yes - the Purdue Bloat Study is very well known. I don't have a lot of faith in it though. They didn't control their variables well and made conclusions/assumptions based on skewed data. For example, they determined that raised food dishes contribute to bloat. However, the sample they studied included mostly large breed dogs who were already prone to bloat and whose owners already raised dishes for that reason. 

Additionally, they concluded that citric acid in food contributes to bloat. But they only studied food that was pre soaked with citric acid.


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## CharismaticMillie

Bella's Momma said:


> This thread scares me to pieces! We severely limited Bella's activity pre- and post-meal when we first got her, but then we felt it was much too limiting.
> 
> This is a good reminder not to feed her outside. On occasion I've given her her lunch then left. I know she will immediately go off to play and chase squirrels. I think it was that someone said it mostly happens past the age of 4 that gave me this false comfort.
> 
> I opted not to have her stomach tacked on the advice of our vet. She said she had concerns about causing a problem when there wasn't one to begin with.
> 
> Bella does burp after eating (not always, but not rarely either). I had heard that could be a bad sign - no?
> 
> She doesn't gulp water, actually rarely drinks but does get some water in with her kibble. This particular kibble doesn't swell at all in water. We used to soak her kibble, on advice to help prevent bloat, but this kind doesn't seem to ever swell up.
> 
> Does anyone have a good link to more information about bloat? There's so much out there, and it seems no one agrees.


I agree - it's hard to find reliable data that everyone agrees on. My own opinion is that each particular dog is probably predisposed to bloat to a certain degree and then it's a matter of environmental factors combined with physical factors. 

For example, I honestly believe that Henry was at a high risk to bloat. This is hindsight, of course, but he is _extremely_ narrow and deep chested. I think his was due to a full meal on an empty stomach and lots of stress. 

I think it's important to take the necessary precautions: no strenuous activity for at least 1 hour before/after exercise, avoid pre-soaking food with citric acid, etc. The jury is still out on raised food dishes. The BEST thing you can do, besides prophylactic gastropexy, is KNOW the symptoms. They don't always appear bloated. Restlessness, obvious discomfort, wanting to roll (kind of like a horse collicking (sp?) ), pacing, excess saliva, biting at side/stomach. If your dog shows these symptoms, there is no time to wait. Rush to the vet, emergency vet if necessary, and say you suspect bloat. Every minute counts!


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## bigpoodleperson

I have been watching Riley like a ticking time bomb for bloat after i found out his brother bloated this year. Bloat itself doesnt "scare" me as long as im home to catch it. What scares me most is it happening when he is home alone. I dont want my dog to die a horrible and extremely painful death while i am not with him (well, either way!)!! That scares the crap out of me and makes me so sad.


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## Jessie's Mom

i chose to have the gastropexy done on jessie when she was spayed. i checked several vets to get their professional opinion on it. i also asked some people on this forum. the majority is for the surgery. in fact, one group of drs from a veterinary hospital in nyc were ALL for it. none of them had any hesitation to recommend it for any deep chested dog. the most common side effect, they said, is some belching afterwards which seems to dissipate, and not all dogs even develop this problem.

however, in spite of the surgery, i still take EVERY precaution: i restrict the exercise after eating to leash walking which does help digestion; jessie doesn't eat kibble (she just doesn't like it), i give her probiotics with every meal, she eats twice a day (which i could make it three times but i work during the day), i give pepcid if i see she has some acidity going on in her stomach which is evident by her vomiting bile or burping up clear liquid (neither of these happen on a regular basis), i feed her high quality foods which are mostly protein, i am selective with her carbs, i always have pumpkin on hand. 

jessie never had a good stomach so i am constantly leary, although, as per her breeder, there has never been any bloat in any of her lines. :questionmark::questionmark: however, i've met 4 other people who live in my neighborhood who have spoos from this breeder. one has 2 of her spoos. all except 1 (5 in all) have stomach problems. go figure.

besides doing all the reading i could, i pay attention to everyone on this forum when this discussion comes up. some have experienced it and got through it, some didn't. many have never had to deal with it. i am always open to learn more. always.


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## CharismaticMillie

I had the opposite experience. Most vets I spoke with were moving away from the idea of preventive surgery. Even though Henry bloated, I chose not to tack Millie's stomach when she was spayed.


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## Bella's Momma

ChocolateMillie said:


> I agree - it's hard to find reliable data that everyone agrees on. My own opinion is that each particular dog is probably predisposed to bloat to a certain degree and then it's a matter of environmental factors combined with physical factors.
> 
> For example, I honestly believe that Henry was at a high risk to bloat. This is hindsight, of course, but he is _extremely_ narrow and deep chested. I think his was due to a full meal on an empty stomach and lots of stress.
> 
> I think it's important to take the necessary precautions: no strenuous activity for at least 1 hour before/after exercise, avoid pre-soaking food with citric acid, etc. The jury is still out on raised food dishes. The BEST thing you can do, besides prophylactic gastropexy, is KNOW the symptoms. They don't always appear bloated. Restlessness, obvious discomfort, wanting to roll (kind of like a horse collicking (sp?) ), pacing, excess saliva, biting at side/stomach. If your dog shows these symptoms, there is no time to wait. Rush to the vet, emergency vet if necessary, and say you suspect bloat. Every minute counts!


Ack. do NOT soak the food, you say? Geez. I will check the ingredients on her kibble. 

She does seem very deep and narrow to me but I don't have any other Spoosto compare her to. Our vet was clear on the "Do not raise the dish" issue so we stuck with that. Not that it has been mentioned she was the one who told me not to worry about the exercise so that is why we didn't stress about it anymore.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

*Poodle Health Registry*

"there has never been any bloat in any of her lines. however, i've met 4 other people who live in my neighborhood who have spoos from this breeder. one has 2 of her spoos. all except 1 (5 in all) have stomach problems. go figure."

Is everyone registering their bloat episode with Poodle Health Registry? How on earth can the breeders know without any doubt what's in their lines if no one bothers to register adverse health issues?

Sorry, I had to jump in here. This is a huge sore point for me. Registering our poodles health issues is one of the things that we can all do to help ensure a healthy breed in the future. I spend a lot of time lurking on groups, I see lots and lots of people who are heartbroken and devastated (including myself), but rarely does anyone follow through with registering that issue with the Poodle Health Registry. I'm a bit baffled why people don't do this.

I am not affiliated with Poodle Health Registry, but I do utilize it for a variety of things. Before I obtained my last poodle I checked Poodle Health Registry to see if there were any health registrations in her pedigree. 

When I search through different groups and forums I can come up with literally hundreds of mentions of poodle bloating, yet there are only a handful of people who have taken the time to register. 

If anyone needs help doing a registration, I will be glad to help and the people at PHR are extremely user friendly.


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## CharismaticMillie

Bella's Momma said:


> Ack. do NOT soak the food, you say? Geez. I will check the ingredients on her kibble.
> 
> She does seem very deep and narrow to me but I don't have any other Spoosto compare her to. Our vet was clear on the "Do not raise the dish" issue so we stuck with that. Not that it has been mentioned she was the one who told me not to worry about the exercise so that is why we didn't stress about it anymore.



See! This is what I mean! _Nobody_ agrees! My holistic vet had never heard of the citric acid thing, so she told me to soak food anyway. While I don't have a lot of faith in the Purdue study, I still don't soak food if it contains citric acid as a preservative. I do sometimes raise their food dishes, and I always wait an hour before/after exercise. Since I chose not to tack Millie's stomach, I figure I might as well take these extra precautions even if they may or may not be necessary.


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## Jessie's Mom

Yaddaluvpoodles;128750Sorry said:


> please don't apologizie for "jumping in". i am so with you on this. this is one very important arguement that you should take your time in getting to know your breeder before buying a pup. i know there are alot of people on this forum who don't yet have a poodle. i think they are smart to: first, learn a lot about the breed, pros & cons; and second, "meet" a breeder - there are several very fine ones on this forum. with my next spoo, you can bet i will be doing exactly this.
> 
> i have no regrets that i have my jessie. in fact, i am happy for her that she has me as her human mom because i am so in tune to her. i know i can't prevent everything, but i will make sure i do 100% of what is necessary to keep her healthy and happy for many years to come.
> 
> thanks to all of you who have helped me with this bloat issue even if we don't really know all the correct answers. at least i know you are there, God forbid anything.....


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## Feralpudel

ChocolateMillie said:


> While I don't have a lot of faith in the Purdue study, I still don't soak food if it contains citric acid as a preservative.


I agree that the Purdue study was imperfect in many ways. But I would argue that it was/is better than anything else out there. 

CM, what reasons do vets give for not wanting to do the prophylactic gastropexy? I am not challenging--just interested. I realize it is still major surgery, and elective at that. But I have also heard vets say that it is far safer and less risky to tack prophylactically than after the dog has bloated/torsioned, when the dog may be in shock and is extremely stressed.


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## Feralpudel

ChocolateMillie said:


> The BEST thing you can do, besides prophylactic gastropexy, is KNOW the symptoms. They don't always appear bloated. Restlessness, obvious discomfort, wanting to roll (kind of like a horse collicking (sp?) ), pacing, excess saliva, biting at side/stomach. If your dog shows these symptoms, there is no time to wait. Rush to the vet, emergency vet if necessary, and say you suspect bloat. Every minute counts!


If this section could have a sticky that every spoo owner has to read upon joining, this would be it. My Mojo bloated and he did *not* appear distended. Fortunately I lived a block away from an e-vet, so I finally got up and walked him there. The vet tech sort of looked at me funny when I told her that we were there because Mojo wouldn't let me sleep, but that was pretty much it--he was restless, and kept nudging me to wake me up. The vet also seemed skeptical, but the x-ray showed torsion. Thank goodness I got him there in time.


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## debjen

I think it's very important to know what works for your dog..as you will find there are a lot of contradictions out there when you start reading about bloat..and definitely know the signs ..it is what saved my dog twice when I started to see signs of bloat and he was in surgery within an hour..

Also be aware they can bloat and twist even with a stomach that has been tacked..the 2nd time Riley (lab) bloated they had to untack him so they could untwist his stomach.


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## Jessie's Mom

debjen said:


> I think it's very important to know what works for your dog..as you will find there are a lot of contradictions out there when you start reading about bloat..and definitely know the signs ..it is what saved my dog twice when I started to see signs of bloat and he was in surgery within an hour..
> 
> Also be aware they can bloat and twist even with a stomach that has been tacked..the 2nd time Riley (lab) bloated they had to untack him so they could untwist his stomach.


i take this very seriously - very. i almost have ocd when it comes to this. with all the diseases they could check for, i wish this were one. that being said, please help me to understand all the signs and possible causes. 

this is what i know about trying to prevent:
1. no strenuous exercise 2 hours before or after eating - leash walking is ok
2. careful with carb intake - carbs can cause gas
3. care with water water consumption after strenous exercise
4. raised dishes are not helpful
5. prophylatic tacking helps reduce rish of torsion in most cases

regarding the signs:
1.unproductive vomiting
2. signifcantly increased salivation
3. stomach distended (not in all cases)

what else do you look for? jessie gets car sick and she can heave several times and sometimes all that comes out is bile or just water. can this lead to bloat ??? she belches sometimes and passes gas sometimes - can this lead to bloating? my vet said a pepcid when i see her uncomfortable is a good idea (in fact surgeon who did her tacking suggested it too), do any of you do this ??

i know cbrand has had this experience with bloat, unfortunately. i know several others have, also. i appreciate all the help there is out there.


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## Feralpudel

Jessie's Mom said:


> she belches sometimes and passes gas sometimes - can this lead to bloating? my vet said a pepcid when i see her uncomfortable is a good idea (in fact surgeon who did her tacking suggested it too), do any of you do this ??
> 
> i know cbrand has had this experience with bloat, unfortunately. i know several others have, also. i appreciate all the help there is out there.


Jessie's Mom, I would say you've taken a big step to keeping her safe just by tacking. Bloat is uncomfortable to the dog, but it is the torsion (twisting/flipping) of the stomach that can be fatal, and tacking greatly reduces the risk of torsion. 

Run of the mill nausea can make a dog drooly, but they that will probably be followed by productive vomiting. 

In addition to Pepcid, which is for excess acid in the stomach, a lot of people keep Gas-X or another gas product in their medicine cabinet or supplies when traveling. If you are concerned that your dog is gassy or uncomfortable, you can safely give the Gas-X. 

As for burping, there seems to be a range of opinion. Some people feel that it shows a susceptibility to bloat, while others seem to think that burping is a safety valve that lowers the risk. 

I think that one of the most important things you can do is to have your dogs with you in the bedroom at night. Bloat seems to often happen in the middle of the night, and your dog can alert you to his discomfort if he is right there with you.


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## CharismaticMillie

Feralpudel said:


> I agree that the Purdue study was imperfect in many ways. But I would argue that it was/is better than anything else out there.
> 
> CM, what reasons do vets give for not wanting to do the prophylactic gastropexy? I am not challenging--just interested. I realize it is still major surgery, and elective at that. But I have also heard vets say that it is far safer and less risky to tack prophylactically than after the dog has bloated/torsioned, when the dog may be in shock and is extremely stressed.


Well..when I originally got Millie, I intentionally chose a female so that I could have gastropexy done when she was spayed. It was only a month after Henry had bloated. However, the vet talked me out of it. She said it can come undone, sometimes the dog can twist anyway (which I know is actually pretty rare) and they don't like the idea of fixing something that isn't broken. She recommended that I try to prevent bloat through environmental factors instead of surgery. 

She is my first dog and I was overwhelmed by so many things. The vet was pushing very strongly for me to have her spayed at 4-5 months, didn't seem knowledgeable about prophylactic gastropexy and meanwhile Henry was having terrible regurgitation due to his gastropexy. All of these decisions led me to NOT get the surgery done. If I was to do it again, I would probably wait until Millie was about 1 year, and then have her spayed/gastropexy with a specialty veterinarian. 

Millie is a bit of a chunky girl - her chest is not narrow and deep like Henry's, so I like to believe that hopefully she won't bloat. I watch her like a hawk though


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

*The significance of PHR registrations*

What can we/I do to motivate people to register their health issues with PHR?

Seriously... do a search of this forum and look and see how many poodles on this forum alone have bloated, then do a search of a couple of others (Flickr, Poodle Support Group).

Now take a guess how many "responsible" owners have registered their bloat issues with PHR???? Do people not understand how critical it is to do this?

I'm going to give a hypothetical situation, with made up dog names/people names... except for mine. This whole scenario is entirely fictitious, but is used to demonstrate the importance of PHR.

Ok, here goes... in 2004 I came across an absolutely lovely bitch (Amelia) at a dog show. I was told by her owner that Amelia was going to be bred to a magnificent boy, (Brewster Rooster) and that there were no known health issues in the lines. I asked questions, I looked on PHR. I found that the breeding was a repeat breeding and came across one of the pups from the previous litter, although most weren't registered. I obtained a pup (Dreamy) from this litter. I loved and nurtured my Dreamy. She grew and matured. I contacted her breeder again, no health issues. I started her health testing and by the time I was done I had spent close to $1500 on health testing. She sailed through everything, had OFA excellent hips, negative for genetic issues... etc. Then I went looking for a stud dog for her. In 2006 I bred Dreamy to Jake. They had gorgeous pups, 12 of them. I placed 1 of those in a home where it would potentially be bred, and I kept one. Then in 2008, I got the first phone call..... one of Dreamy's pups, Celeste had bloated. Even though it was a grand offspring, I feel that breeder's need to be kept aware of such issues, so I contacted Jake's owner, as well as Dreamy's breeder. Dreamy's breeder was a bit indigniant. She informed me that bloat was absolutely not inherited and even though the Purdue study had indicated the dogs at greatest risk for bloat were those having a first degree relative who had bloated, the study was inaccurate. She went on to tell me that any poodle could bloat, for that matter, She was well aware that Brewster Rooster had bloated as a two year old after he ate a whole bag of dog food and that Amelia had bloated as well when she had been left briefly in a boarding kennel and had been "mishandled". Both dogs were tacked and obviously it was situational because neither of them had bloated again. The initial bloats were both sometime ago, before they had been bred and heaven knows, if a bitch was prone to bloat it would happen during the stress of pregnancy. She went on to tell me that I should find out exactly what the owner had done that made Celeste bloat. A few months later I received another phone call about a different Dreamy pup, Charlie. Charlie had bloated too, then Chance (another Dreamy pup). By accident I found that in the original litter of Amelia/Brooster pups, two of them had bloated.... before I ever bred Dreamy. The next thing that happened is that I was at a dog show and heard my name mentioned..... I was referred to as the breeder who's dogs all bloated and someone made the comment that they would never get a pup from me! In the meantime I had asked my puppy owners to register their bloat with Poodle Health Registry, they assured me they would, but they never did. As only the owner can register, I couldn't do it for them. I offered to help, I printed out the paperwork, but it never got sent in. Then out of the blue one day I received a phone call, someone who owned a poodle named Daphne, full sister to my Dreamy was calling to inquire about what I knew about helath issues in the line. Unfortunately, Daphne had a litter of 8 week old pups on the ground...... sired by Jake.

That's the end of my little fictitious scenario. I have seen/heard this type of thing play out again and again in the poodle world.

Here are some things to think about:
1) IF each of these owners would have submitted their bloat cases to PHR, we would have seen an incredible concentration of bloat and possibly enough that it may have shed some light on possible inheritance.
2) By not disclosing the bloat, extremely high risk breedings continued to be done.
3) Innocent owners purchased pups anticipating that they were purchasing pups with minimal health issues, when in fact they were high risk.
4) What on earth is going to happen to that litter of pups out of Daphne and Jake???? As a breeder, what would you do, could you look your puppy people in the eyes and tell them that they are low risk for health issues?
5)Why had "I" (in my story) been such a rotten person that I ended up being tagged with the stigma of having a "bloat" kennel"?
6) What about the owners of each of the pups, the cost both in heartbreak and financially?
7)What about these poor, poor poodles, who were at risk for suffering from gruesome/agonizing deaths?

If just ONE owner had registered a bloat case to Poodle Health Registry the info would have been there for all to see. 

In this fictitious example, as a breeder, I was working totally in the dark, with blindfolded by ignorance perpetuated by poodle owners who no doubt, considered themselves to be responsible.

****IF you could prevent just one poodle from bloating or one high health risk breeding from taking place, are you responsible enough to do it? Do you REALLY care enough about the breed to do it? Or do you just give lip service???*****

I ask each and everyone of you to think about what I have just written and then show your true colors. I'm so tired of people fussing about health issues, getting all sorts of attention, sympathy but not caring enough about our wonderful dogs to do anything about it that makes a difference. Please make a difference, Please register your health issues with Poodle Health Registry.

Darla
Vic (Addison's,Epilepsy,Cancer, Senile cataracts)
Riley(Cancer, deceased)
Maggie (sebaceous addenitis)
Bridgette (spleen torsion with atypical bloat)


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## Jessie's Mom

darla - first i have to say, the story may be fictitious, but look @ the list of your fur babies under your name and all their issues. i assume that is not fictitious. i am so sorry.

now, i am not a breeder but i KNOW that if i were one, i would absolutely take full responsibility for the health issues in any of my dogs. how do i know that? cause i know me. IMO, the breeders who don't do that are not breeding for the right reasons. they are breeding for money. they may not fit the criteria of a byb or puppy mill perse' but that is what they are. why do i say that, cause if they weren't they would immediately stop breeding any dog that has a health issue (or potential in the case of bloat) and neuter that dog. IF you REALLY care about this amazing breed, you would do ANYTHING to better them, protect them. you would NOT take the chance of anything happening to your line due to your own selfishness. 

if a breeder hides something so disasterous as bloat, they will be found out, eventually. no doubt about it. evil can't stay hidden - it eventually shows its face. unfortunately, many beautiful poodle faces will be subject to looks of pain and many human moms & dads will be left with broken hearts.

i have such an abnormal fear of this that sometimes i think i'm crazy. i seriously want to take jessie to a canine gastro dr to see if i am correctly doing all i can to prevent it from happening to her. it would kill me. even with the tacking i am so weary of what she eats, how much she eats, when she eats, about her water intake, about her treats, about the things that make her nervous, i pay attention to her burping (is it more or less?), to her passing gas (is it more or less?), to her spitting up (is it more or less, is it water or bile or food ?)....maybe i am crazy


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## CharismaticMillie

Okay - Yaddaluvpoodles, hopefully you can help me 

As I explained earlier, my mom's dog recently bloated - right before he turned 2. Anyway, does this mean it is OUR responsiblity to register him with PHR? HOW do we do it?


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> darla - first i have to say, the story may be fictitious, but look @ the list of your fur babies under your name and all their issues. i assume that is not fictitious. i am so sorry.
> 
> now, i am not a breeder but i KNOW that if i were one, i would absolutely take full responsibility for the health issues in any of my dogs. how do i know that? cause i know me. IMO, the breeders who don't do that are not breeding for the right reasons. they are breeding for money. they may not fit the criteria of a byb or puppy mill perse' but that is what they are. why do i say that, cause if they weren't they would immediately stop breeding any dog that has a health issue (or potential in the case of bloat) and neuter that dog. IF you REALLY care about this amazing breed, you would do ANYTHING to better them, protect them. you would NOT take the chance of anything happening to your line due to your own selfishness.
> 
> if a breeder hides something so disasterous as bloat, they will be found out, eventually. no doubt about it. evil can't stay hidden - it eventually shows its face. unfortunately, many beautiful poodle faces will be subject to looks of pain and many human moms & dads will be left with broken hearts.
> 
> i have such an abnormal fear of this that sometimes i think i'm crazy. i seriously want to take jessie to a canine gastro dr to see if i am correctly doing all i can to prevent it from happening to her. it would kill me. even with the tacking i am so weary of what she eats, how much she eats, when she eats, about her water intake, about her treats, about the things that make her nervous, i pay attention to her burping (is it more or less?), to her passing gas (is it more or less?), to her spitting up (is it more or less, is it water or bile or food ?)....maybe i am crazy


Jessie's mom, I think you have done everything and more to prevent Jessie from bloating. It's all fate now.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Jessie's mom, I think you have done everything and more to prevent Jessie from bloating. It's all fate now.


CM, thank you for saying that. you bring tears to my eyes. i am very happy to have found this forum as a place to learn and to vent and to find comfort. i am very happy to have met so many of you, some of which have become friends outside this forum and i am so blessed to have them in my life. 
i am sorry about your mom's dog, but so happy that you want to do the best thing for everyone and that is to make the experience public. jessie is not even AKC, long story, but that didn't matter to me when i found her cause i never had thoughts of ever showing her. however, i didn't realize what else it meant - what it means is her breeder could hide anything and everything. i don't even know jessie's line - i'm embarrassed to say that cause everyone here is so knowledgeable. i didn't realize how important that was. but now i know. i have no regrets b/c she is the love of my life. her face makes me melt. i just feel bad cause i don't have enough about her past which would maybe help me to help her. right now she is 22 months old and full of energy and happiness. i pray that is how it stays for her, for us, for all of us...each of you.


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## Jessie's Mom

ok - this may seem redundant, but i don't mean it that way, so here goes: what are the signs to look for when your dog begins to bloat? i already know about the increase salivation, the unproductive vomiting, but as was already stated, those signs do not always mean bloat is happening.

so...what's the difference? what makes you stand up and take notice? from those who have experience it, what was different?


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> If I was to do it again, I would probably wait until Millie was about 1 year, and then have her spayed/gastropexy with a specialty veterinarian.
> 
> Millie is a bit of a chunky girl - her chest is not narrow and deep like Henry's, so I like to believe that hopefully she won't bloat. I watch her like a hawk though


that is what i did with jessie. i waited until after her 2nd heat, spayed her and did the gastropexy. my vet, at first, wasn't for it, however, she called specialists who work @ a splecialty hospital, and those drs highly recommended it. she did the spay and then a specialist came in to finish up with the gastropexy. jessie doesn't burp or throw up nearly as much as she use to. however, her chest is deep and narrow.......


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> ok - this may seem redundant, but i don't mean it that way, so here goes: what are the signs to look for when your dog begins to bloat? i already know about the increase salivation, the unproductive vomiting, but as was already stated, those signs do not always mean bloat is happening.
> 
> so...what's the difference? what makes you stand up and take notice? from those who have experience it, what was different?


I think I said it earlier in this thread, but it's a long thread and I don't know where. Sorry for repeating myself! 

Henry coudn't sit down because he was in so much pain. He would cry and bite at his stomach, rolled on the ground like a horse with colic, went outside and laid down in the grass and wouldn't get up. He was pacing. Spinning in circles biting at his stomach. BUT he was still wagging his tail and trying to be normal. His gums were still pink and he wasn't obviously bloated.


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## bigpoodleperson

> Anyway, does this mean it is OUR responsiblity to register him with PHR? HOW do we do it? Will his breeder be angry? Are we stepping on toes? Do we tell her we are registering him?



Im not Yadda, but i do know that You (the owner, name he is registured with) are the ONLY person that can send in his information to PHR. If you go to the PHR website, they have a page that explains how to registure. I have recently done this with Riley, it is pretty easy. You dont HAVE to tell your breeder if you dont want to. 
I told my breeder, and we had a HUGE argument. She said it was worthless to registure, i was just going to smear her good name, no good would come from it as Riley isnt a sire, etc. I will still do it though, and think it is the right thing to do.


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## debjen

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think I said it earlier in this thread, but it's a long thread and I don't know where. Sorry for repeating myself!
> 
> Henry coudn't sit down because he was in so much pain. He would cry and bite at his stomach, rolled on the ground like a horse with colic, went outside and laid down in the grass and wouldn't get up. He was pacing. Spinning in circles biting at his stomach. BUT he was still wagging his tail and trying to be normal. His gums were still pink and he wasn't obviously bloated.


With Riley we were at agility practice..he did one run fine..at the next run he didn't even want to start..went in to a corner to try and throw up..I packed up to go home and before we even left I could see his sides expanding and I had never seen a dog in such pain (and he was a very stoic lab)..he was in surgery within an hour..

The second time he ate his breakfast and lunch..refused his dinner then started to try and throw up ...that time it was harder to tell that his sides were expanding because his ribs were still sprung from the 1st bloat 6 weeks earlier..but again he was in surgery within an hour of symtpoms.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

I get pretty wound up about this stuff and did a big post and it seems to have disappeared into cyberspace. So... a shorter response (LOL)

Yes, the affected poodle's owner is the only one who can submit a registration of a health issue to PHR.

It can be done by 
1) Clicking on this link: Poodle Health Registry
2) Clicking on the button that says "Start Here to Register Your Poodle"
3) Print out a copy of each of the three pages (and don't panic, there are only a few lines to fill out on each!) One needs to go to a vet for confirmation of the diagnosis. Then they can be faxed in, sent in by snail mail, or scanned and emailed in.

Wahoo! You're done, that easily.

As to whether or not a breeder is angry--Breeders NEED to be informed when one of the pups they produced has a health issue. How else can the breeding program be adjusted to avoid a repeat? Some breeder's are angry at first. Most of us feel like a total failures when a health issue occurs in one of our pups, but we need to realize that all we can do is the best we can. We aren't omniscient. GOOD breeders will encourage PHR registrations because they are sincerely concerned with the wellbeing of the breed. Good breeders may even offer to print out the registration pages and help fill it out. There is NO SHAME in having produced a health issue. The shame comes in what you do once you know about that issue. 
Pet owners can have a positive influence on the overall well being of our standard poodle breed, not only by registering their health issues, but also by supporting breeder's who support the use of Poodle Health Registry and sharing of health issues.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> I think I said it earlier in this thread, but it's a long thread and I don't know where. Sorry for repeating myself!


no, i should be sorry for asking you to repeat it. i guess i missed it someone along the way or i just don't remember. however, i sincerely appreciate your saying it again. i get it, i understand now, there is pain involved. why didn't that just occur to me? i really don't know why - anyway, cm thank you again.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

BigPoodlePerson--I'm really sorry that your breeder was a snot about registering Riley with the Poodle Health Registry. A PHR registration doesn't smear anyone's name. It is exactly what it looks like. Merely a statement that this particular dog was affected by this particular issue. It doesn't mean the breeder was bad in anyway. Quite a few breeder's think like that--hopefully if they are going to continue breeding their attitudes will change.

Pet owners can help that a bit by finding out whether or not a breeder encourages registration of health issues with PHR prior to purchasing puppies...... Personally, I'd rather patronize a breeder who cares about the breed, then one who tries to cover up and hide health issues.


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## Jessie's Mom

debjen said:


> With Riley we were at agility practice..he did one run fine..at the next run he didn't even want to start..went in to a corner to try and throw up..I packed up to go home and before we even left I could see his sides expanding and I had never seen a dog in such pain (and he was a very stoic lab)..he was in surgery within an hour..
> 
> The second time he ate his breakfast and lunch..refused his dinner then started to try and throw up ...that time it was harder to tell that his sides were expanding because his ribs were still sprung from the 1st bloat 6 weeks earlier..but again he was in surgery within an hour of symtpoms.


i guess there is some consolation that they can live through it. i know there is the other side, but i would rather focus on this side. thank you for sharing this.


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## Jessie's Mom

CelticKitti said:


> Jessie's Mom. If the litter was not registered you can still register her with PAL or AKC Canine Partners through AKC and she can still compete in Agility/Obedience/Ralley ect. just not conformation.


ck, i was just going through this thread about bloat when i came across your answer to my posting. i never saw this before! thank you for the info even if it took me this long to respond. i will definitely look into this !!


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Jessie's Mom said:


> darla - first i have to say, the story may be fictitious, but look @ the list of your fur babies under your name and all their issues. i assume that is not fictitious. i am so sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have such an abnormal fear of this that sometimes i think i'm crazy. i seriously want to take jessie to a canine gastro dr to see if i am correctly doing all i can to prevent it from happening to her. it would kill me. even with the tacking i am so weary of what she eats, how much she eats, when she eats, about her water intake, about her treats, about the things that make her nervous, i pay attention to her burping (is it more or less?), to her passing gas (is it more or less?), to her spitting up (is it more or less, is it water or bile or food ?)....maybe i am crazy


Thank you Jessie's Mom. The health issues are real... I forgot to post Riley's seizure disorder <VBG> Unfortunately, my heart has been broken so many times by these wonderful dogs that sometimes I wonder if it will ever be whole again. 

It truly sounds like you have done everything you can possibly do to limit the bloat risks for Jessie.

Let's do a couple of things... let's imagine that Jessie never bloats, lives to a ripe age of 15 and slips away to the rainbow bridge while dreaming of chasing bunnies in her sleep. How do you feel? Are you happy with her and the things the two of you have done together? Is there anything that you would like to change in that picture?

Now let's imagine the worst.... You've already taken all of the steps you possibly can to limit bloat risk, but Jessie ends up bloating, and you are unable to save her. The question is the same... How do you feel? Are you happy with her and the things the two of you have done together, is there anything that you would like to change in that picture?

We each only have this moment, that we are in right now. Our futures are never guaranteed. You can worry about bloat for the next however many years or... you can do the things you've done, know that you've done everything you can and... enjoy life and Jessie worry free. 

I have read literally hundreds of descriptions of dogs bloating (all breeds, not just poodles) and the circumstances which surrounded the bloat. It seems like everytime there is a pattern, something happens opposing it. When someone says feed this, someone else says no, feed that. Don't exercise, do exercise, don't water, do water. It's enough to drive one batty!

Trust your instincts, do what you think you need to do, take a deep breath, smile, hug Jessie and enjoy life!


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## Jessie's Mom

bigpoodleperson said:


> I have been watching Riley like a ticking time bomb for bloat after i found out his brother bloated this year. Bloat itself doesnt "scare" me as long as im home to catch it. What scares me most is it happening when he is home alone. I dont want my dog to die a horrible and extremely painful death while i am not with him (well, either way!)!! That scares the crap out of me and makes me so sad.


i know, me too!! i feel the same way....geeeezzzz...i wish there were solid answers


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## Jessie's Mom

debjen said:


> Riley is a lab but has bloated twice and of course my vet says my dogs never do things the way they are suppose to but a couple of things I would like to point out..
> 
> The first time he bloated with torsion he did so on an empty stomach..he didn't eat breakfast that morning.. it was summer and a little warm out and he would occasionally not eat his breakfast..we went to an agility fun run..he did his first run no problem had just a few treats..went to start his 2nd run after a rest and he didn't want to run..tried going into a corner to try and throw up..I started to pack up to take him home thinking he wasn't feeling good when I noticed his stomach starting to expand..he was in surgery within an hour..he was tacked during that surgery..I think the empty stomach and the jumping motion did something to twist his stomach..but I'll never know for sure..
> 
> The 2nd time he bloated about 6 weeks after the 1st time..he had had breakfast and lunch (by that time we were feeding 3 times a day)..had a CET chew in the afternoon but refused his dinner..shortly after that he started trying to throw up..it was a little harder to tell that his stomach was expanding this time because his ribs were still sprung from the 1st bloat..but about an hour later we once again were in surgery because the stomach had twisted again..it had twisted around the tack so they can still twist even if tacked..in fact the vet had to removed the tack in order to untwist the stomach ( I know for sure she did because I got to watch the surgery)..unfortunately the stomach was so fried it wouldn't hold the suture to retack him so we had to go to a Vet school about 4 weeks later where they could laprascopically (sp) tack him so they didn't have to open him up again ..
> 
> so I guess my points are they can bloat w/ torsion on an empty stomach and after being tacked too..
> 
> the good news is that this happened when he was 7/8 years old and he is now 12 1/2 ..he also did go on to compete in agility for about another year after he healed up..


yea!!!!!!!! happy ending to a scary story !!! so glad to hear this side of things....


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## Jessie's Mom

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> We each only have this moment, that we are in right now. Our futures are never guaranteed. You can worry about bloat for the next however many years or... you can do the things you've done, know that you've done everything you can and... enjoy life and Jessie worry free.
> 
> I have read literally hundreds of descriptions of dogs bloating (all breeds, not just poodles) and the circumstances which surrounded the bloat. It seems like everytime there is a pattern, something happens opposing it. When someone says feed this, someone else says no, feed that. Don't exercise, do exercise, don't water, do water. It's enough to drive one batty!
> 
> Trust your instincts, do what you think you need to do, take a deep breath, smile, hug Jessie and enjoy life!


u are wonderful, thank you. very special in many ways...


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## Lilith

For those of you that had bloat problems, how did you first realize what was going on?


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## CharismaticMillie

Lilith said:


> For those of you that had bloat problems, how did you first realize what was going on?


see above


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## Lilith

ChocolateMillie said:


> see above


ah - found the relevant post! Thanks! (that will teach me to skim through these long threads while at work!)


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## Jessie's Mom

hey, everyone...

i follow the Animal Medical Center on fb. just asked them for any further info on any current research being done on bloat and they wrote me back to tell me that one of their drs is currently preparing a blog on this subject and will advise me when it is on their website. i will keep you guys posted. if there is anything new, i will be sure to send the link.


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## CharismaticMillie

Bumping this up because it has some valuable information about bloat 

Also, I need opinions. I did not have Millie get prophylactic gastropexy whens he was spayed. I very much wish I would have waited to have her spayed until maturity and had her stomach tacked then. What are peoples' opinions of still doing the gastropexy, as its own procedure? Do you think it is necessary or worth the anesthesia?


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## Lilith

I'm not a vet, but it seems from what I've been reading online to be a matter of playing the odds, as in risk of surgery:risk of bloat. The consensus I seem to be finding is that risk of surgery>risk of bloat so surgery is not recommended. _Unless_ the dog has a personal or family history of bloat, in which case risk of bloat may trump risk of surgery.

Tough decision. And of course the gastoplexy doesn't even solve the bloat problem, just the torsion problem, from what I understand...


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## CharismaticMillie

Yes, they can still bloat with gastropexy. Though bloat does not kill, torsion does. It is a tough decision...would have been easier if I had done it with the spay!


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## Liz

CM - I'm going ahead with the pexy when Mia is spayed. I know my situation is different from yours, but there were several old threads on the topic on this forum that I found helpful in making my decision. My vet is thinking about recommending pexy to all spoos who come in to be spayed/neutered.


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## Jessie's Mom

cm, what is millie's digestion like? i ask b/c i had jessie tacked when spayed b/c she was always burping, passing gas, and just not a good eater. she would not chew kibble, basically swallow it. she had motion sickness in the car - even if i didn't feed her she would heave until she threw up bile. if she didn't eat, she could throw up bile. she could eat, rest, then play, drink water and burp up the water. she has the personality that i thought could lead to problems. 

even now with the tacking, i watch her. she doesn't get fed kibble mixed with her wet food - sometimes i will leave it for her dry instead of some treats. but her main food is EVO 95% chicken/turkey mixed with some Stella & Chewys dehydrated chicken, and some grill chicken. i can also tell when her stomach is not good so i give her a 10mg pepcid. i am seriously thinking of taking her to a canine gastro specialist just to be sure i am doing what is best for her.

so i guess my point is, what is millie's personality ? i know all spoos are super energetic, but besides that, does she have the personality that could cause acid build up in her stomach from excitement? or is she relatively calm, no separation anxiety, etc, all the things that could cause gastric problems?


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## jeffsf

ChocolateMillie said:


> What are peoples' opinions of still doing the gastropexy, as its own procedure? Do you think it is necessary or worth the anesthesia?


If you can get the gastropexy done laproscopically the surgery is not anywhere near as invasive as with basically a full-chest incision. In my opinion, if that option is available, it is a "no-brainer" to have it done at spay/neuter time, or soon after a dog leaves the ring.

There really isn't any good information on what causes bloat or how to prevent it. The oft-cited Purdue studies redact come of their earlier findings and others are perhaps not as well supported as they might be (for example, raised feeder bowls -- is it that raised feeder bowls are more likely to cause bloat in large dogs, or is it that large dogs are more likely to have raised feeder bowls and, independently, large dogs are more likely to bloat). I'm not dismissing it, just saying that it isn't a "cure" for bloat.

What caused Rodi's bloat here? As far as we can tell, just jumping up on the bed, like any other night, torsed his speen.


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## CharismaticMillie

Everyone, the issue is that I already had her spayed without doing the pexy. 

Story: I bought Millie right after Henry bloated. I bought a female _because_ I could do a preventative pexy when she got spayed. Then, when Millie turned 4 months her vet started pushing for spay already :doh: and was against doing the pexy. I was overwhelmed and I was talked into believing an early spay (5 months) and no prentative pexy were the best choices. I wish I had waited to spay (I've had to give her estrogen for incontinence episodes) and I wish I had had the pexy done. 

That being said, Jessie's Mom, she does not have any digestion issues now that she is on raw. She is not particularly gassy, I have never heard her burmp and she can't eat as fast as she has to rip apart meat instead of inhale pellets. However; IMO Henry seemingly bloated from stress and possibly from eating on an empty stomach. 

Jeffstf - I agree that there isn't any good information on what causes bloat and I am with you 100% on the perdue study being unreliable. I feed raw so raised dishes wouldn't be a possibility anyway :lol: I am mostly concerned about the fact that Henry seemingly bloated due to a predisposition, not necessarily because of anything we could have controlled. (Though my sister _could_ have refrained from feeding him on an empty stomach.)

Anyway, I just don't know what to do. I wish I had done the right thing in the first place.


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## Ruth

I'll leave these links here about bloat info, in case they help someone:

Bloat in Dogs

Accupressure point for bloat:

Accupressure Point for Bloat

Even a video:

Three Mile Run Dog Acupressure Point: Acupressure for Arthritic Dogs | eHow.com

More info on accupressure:

Dog Acupressure (not Acupuncture) Resources - Lucky Dog Health

Bloat is a scary thing, owning GSDs I watch them like a hawk for any weird sign, and I always keep Gas-X handy. That and I have used the accupressure more than once! Luckily nothing bad happened, but if they were a bit gassy it definitely helped them. 

Nobody seems to agree, like others have said, on the causes for bloat. Sometimes you can do every single thing to prevent it and your dog will bloat. Others you do many things wrong and your dog never bloats!
I'm almost certain it has more to do with genetics than anything.

Sorry for the long post! Hope it helps someone!


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## CharismaticMillie

Thank you Ruth! It's funny because I have never actualy dealt with bloat itself, just twisting. Although the vet said that Henry did start to balloon up as he was on the operating table.


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## Ruth

That must have been so scary for you and Henry! Particularly since he was very young! But I'm glad that he's ok now. 

Hugs for him, Millie and of course for you too.


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## wishpoo

Ruth - how and when would you use Gas-x ??? :act-up:

Thanks for all of the links : )))


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## CharismaticMillie

I'm not Ruth  but I believe you could use Gas-x if your dog is bloated. You still need to get them to the vet for decompression, though. Gas-x will not do anything for torsion.


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## jeffsf

We still keep the Gas-X Thin Strips around as a "time buyer" if any of the kids exhibit signs of bloat. The strip goes on their tongue, dissolves, and the hope is that the simethecone helps break up the foam of bubbles. 

I can't stress highly enough that bloat is a _*right now *_kind of emergency. Minutes really do count. Keep your emergency vet's phone number in your cell phone and let them know you are coming.

(There are probably other brands, but we like the ease of administration of the strips, and they don't contain xylitol)


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## wishpoo

Thanks Millie and Ruth : )))) !!!


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## CharismaticMillie

Great Dane Links: BLOAT These are some excellent links about GDV. They discuss the issues with the reliability of the Perdue bloat study, prophylactic gastropexy, signs of bloat, etc. Definitely something for every standard poodle owner to read!

http://www.globalspan.net/bloat.htm Another helpful website to learn about GDV.


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## jeffsf

Thanks for the great links!

As a reference point, I just talked with UC Davis (CA) and a "conventional" spay/pexy is about $300, with a laparoscopic spay/pexy around $1000.


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## Ruth

Wishpoo, as Millie and jeffsf said, I would give Gas-X (one of their tiny softgels) at the very first sign of bloating or even presence of gas.

To be honest I keep the Gas-X just in case, but so far I haven't had to use it (thank God and knock on wood). 
I have used the accupressure point a few times though, but only because I'm paranoid and in all cases it ended up being nothing or just a little bit of gas, lol.
But better safe than sorry!!

Either or both of them would help eliminating gas before it becomes a problem, or if it's already a problem and you see your dog acting strangely, it will buy you and your dog some time til you get to your vet, which you should do *ASAP!*



jeffsf said:


> I can't stress highly enough that bloat is a _*right now *_kind of emergency. Minutes really do count. Keep your emergency vet's phone number in your cell phone and let them know you are coming


Seriously, this.


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## CharismaticMillie

Eh...shoulda 'pexied her when I got her spayed! I called the specialty veterinarian and they quoted around $800-900 for laparoscopic prophylactic gastropexy (that's a mouthful!). $80 for initial consultation. So, that is pretty close to $1,000. Henry's emergency surgery was only $500 more than that! Though if luck hadn't been on our side we could have paid all of that and still lost him.


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## Mark Keating

*Bloat...*

We have lost 3 dogs (presas) to bloat and 1 GSD we were able to save.
What we learned was it was what the dog did after they ate as opposed to before. In fact, when we work our Malinois, they work very, very hard. We actually push them strategically to teach them to work mentally through physical adversity. Point being, we always feed them within 1 half hour of their workout. We give them K-9 super fuel with their raw meat and we want the dog absorb the nutrient when it needs it most. After work. Its like a protein shake. Which brings me to my second point.
Raw. We have never had a dog, or heard of a dog bloating on a raw diet.
As far as kibble, we feed grain free kibble to all of our dogs and if you try to soak it in water, it doesn't really swell at all.
So, thats my thought.
If you feed either raw, or grain free kibble, I think your chances of bloat are severely diminished.
Mark


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## CharismaticMillie

Thanks, Mark. I do feed raw!


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## Ruth

Mark, I'm so sorry for the dogs you lost. 
Luckily your GSD made it!

Yes, as you said raw food and grainless kibble DO lower the chances of bloat, but unfortunately I know of dogs (GSDs) that have bloated on raw. As I said in a previous post, maybe they had genetic disposition, but they did bloat.

Here's one of those cases: Gretchen BLOATED!!!! - 20% of Stomach Removed!!!!! - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Also here a very lengthy thread about bloat with lots of info sharing and cases (in GSD forum, but of course other breeds are mentioned too): Help needed with bloat: a must read for GSD owners - German Shepherd Dog Forums


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## Mark Keating

Wow! Thats the first I've heard of that.
Definitely noted. Thanks for the link.
Thats why I don't have beliefs. They are too hard to change.
Ideas are allot easier.
Thanks again.
Mark


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## Ruth

No problem!

And yeah, apparently we can only keep being vigilant of our dogs and try to do what it's said to help avoid bloat.


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## CharismaticMillie

I think it would be a good idea to create a sticky about bloat. It is something that not all new standard poodle owners know about. I ran into someone at the dog park last week that had just adopted a beautiful rescue spoo. His spoo was very well put together but TALL. A few inches taller than Henry - Henry is 27 inches tall... Anyway, I told him about bloat and I hope I made a difference.

What do you think are the most important things about bloat we/I should put in a sticky if we create one! 

Thanks!


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## Ruth

A sticky would be awesome, Millie! That's a great idea.

I'd say definitely a description of what it is, and a lot of links like the ones I posted here:



Ruth said:


> I'll leave these links here about bloat info, in case they help someone:
> 
> Bloat in Dogs
> 
> Accupressure point for bloat:
> 
> Accupressure Point for Bloat
> 
> Even a video:
> 
> Three Mile Run Dog Acupressure Point: Acupressure for Arthritic Dogs | eHow.com
> 
> More info on accupressure:
> 
> Dog Acupressure (not Acupuncture) Resources - Lucky Dog Health



and the ones you posted:



ChocolateMillie said:


> Great Dane Links: BLOAT These are some excellent links about GDV. They discuss the issues with the reliability of the Perdue bloat study, prophylactic gastropexy, signs of bloat, etc. Definitely something for every standard poodle owner to read!


If necessary the GSD forums ones as well. The more info the better I think.


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## tintlet

I had heard of Bloat Buster
Nature's Farmacy - Store - Product Details
so ordered a Bloat kit and extra bottle. sent the extra bottle to a friend who's dog has bloated several times (is tacked). she said it has worked wonderful!!! 
I have always carried a gastro tube in my tack box..just in case:-(


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## debjen

jeffsf said:


> Thanks for the great links!
> 
> As a reference point, I just talked with UC Davis (CA) and a "conventional" spay/pexy is about $300, with a laparoscopic spay/pexy around $1000.


Riley's laparoscopic pexy which we had to do after his 2nd bloat w/ torsion surgery because the stomach wouldn't hold the suture for the tack was done at Washington State University Vet School and was about 1200 and this was about 6 years ago.


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## CharismaticMillie

debjen, so sorry you had to go through that with Riley. I can't imagine having to go through that twice! I am sure it was beyond difficult emotionally and financially!


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## debjen

ChocolateMillie said:


> debjen, so sorry you had to go through that with Riley. I can't imagine having to go through that twice! I am sure it was beyond difficult emotionally and financially!


Thanks we went through 3 surgeries in 3 months..the second time it happened I had to sit for a minute and just really thought this can't be happening again..it was about 6 weeks after the first time..but unfortunately it was..so yes emotionally it was just awful..Financially I have to say I have the greatest parents..the first time without even telling me they sent a check to cover the cost of the surgery..the second time the same thing...the third time even though I told them several times I was okay and could cover the surgery they sent Riley a check in his birthday card which was the same month as his 3rd surgery..*G*


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