# Rabies Vaccines: What? All shots, even the initial ones, are good for three years?



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I read this anxiety-provoking article, _65 Ways Rabies Vaccinations Can Harm Your Dog_. Up front, one of the things it says is:


The one year rabies vaccine is identical to the three year rabies vaccine, just labeled differently.

That's outrageous. If the shots are the same and each lasts for 3 years, wouldn't it be likely that your dog still has an acceptable titter after the first one at 4 months of age? 

I googled and found this interesting discussion here link where some dog owners opt for getting only the "three year" vaccine since they're the same, rather than at 4 months, 1 year and 4 year vaccines, etc. 

This means that your dog is getting three rabies shots by the time it's four years old. For a small dog, this strikes me as an unhealthy overkill.

From that same 2nd link, one commenter says: _"if you are given a 1-year vaccine in a 3 year state, *legally* that vaccine is only good for 1 year. That's how some vets, even in 3-year states, this is how some vets force pets into unnecessary vaccines!"_ On that same thread, someone else said the USDA allows the vaccine makers repackage 3yr shots as 1yr shots. If true, was this a decision based on need, or profit? Does anyone here know? 

I've read about so many immune types of problems, lumps and cancer in dogs after their rabies shots and I balk at getting her one, especially since she's an apartment toy poodle and I live in an urban area. She has a better chance of being struck by lightning on our once a week walks outside than to come in contact with wildlife. I still regret getting Misha-cat a rabies vaccine when he was 6 months old, he has a lump that never went away, and he's never ever stepped a paw out of my home.

I was wondering also if it's _biologically_ safer to wait until Bella is a year old and adult size, and could hopefully handle the large dose of the vaccine given to all dogs regardless of a 4-lb poodle or 80-lb German Shepard. 

(Sigh.) It's like I'd rather wait until she's mature and _pay the fine_ if found out than risk her developing a compromised immune system or losing her from multiple rabies vaccinations. Aside from it being the law, any thoughts, opinions, or answers?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My breeder started Leonard's vaccines at 16 weeks and told me I shouldn't get his Rabies shot until after he was 6 months old, to get all his shot along with a shot of Benedryl. Leonard is 4 pounds as well. 

It would be nice if they started low dose vaccines, rabies included for smaller dogs like they do for cats here in NY, you do have to vaccinate yearly but it is a much smaller dose, reducing injection site sarcomas. 

Rabies vaccines are required by law in NY at 4 months, 1 year later or a year and four months, then every three years as long as you do not exceed the three years.

In toy dogs you shouldn't ever stack vaccines (get more than one at a time) and do three to four weeks in between vaccines.

As far as the one year, three year vaccines its the exact same vaccine but must be recorded correctly and given in the correct time frame required by law. 

Of course fines aside, rabies is a real issue.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Here in California it is the law! 1st rabies shot at 12 to 16 weeks, 2nd shot at 1 year old, which is good for three years. No exceptions unless you can prove it is life threatening to your dog! My girl had a rabies mediated skin reaction which left her with bald spots at the injection site and I tried to get an exemption as with each shot it was worse and she also with the last rabies shot, had the polyoma virus show up with the appearance of a few warts, really tiny, but still a bad sign of a bad immune response! I'm coming up on another due date and am really concerned! Am contemplating ignoring the mailed notice I get when it is due! 
Oh I was told exemption in Calif are almost impossible to get here but I tried! I couldn't prove my girl would die from it!

I probably, after the 1st incidence,would not have given it to her again but my building is a HUD building and every year at recertification I have to show current licence and vac! Molly is an apt dog too but as she has contact with the outside world dogs so I do vac for distemper and parvo ( I do it myself every 3 years- two months before her rabies are due)


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Both sides of this issue are difficult, I know some one who lost their Shih tzu because it wasn't vaccinated and was exposed to a rabid bat, the dog was euthanized because there is no treatment for rabies for dogs.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Twyla, did he recommend the Benadryl with the rabies shot? He has an excellent reputation as far as I know and has been in the business forever, so that gives me some comfort. What dosage of Benadryl for your Leonard? Bella is the same weight as he is and just a month older.

Molly, I'm so sorry your baby girl has gone through that, that's horrible. I wish someone important with a voice could speak against this to get the law changed, b/c it does not seem like it's in the best interest of anyone to over-vaccinate.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

The vet gives the Benedryl as a shot prior to giving a vaccine , it works quicker that way.

Benedryl is with all vaccines


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Vita, I lost two cats to injection site sarcoma, this was ages ago before they
(DVMs) change vaccination site protocol, no longer would all injections go between the shoulder blades but spreading them across the different points on the cat's body. There is change afoot it just takes forever, as in low dose rabies vaccines for cats. There are a lot more complications with cats a vaccines because of their size. That change only took twenty years.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd been researching vaccinations since we'd got our boys. Our girls had had some, fortunately, short term "zombie" reactions some years before. Our (then) vet gave them reduced doses for the rest of their lives. I didn't want to put any more med/chemicals into our boys tiny little systems beyond necessity. 

I had determined to go with the AAHA core vaccine recommendations only but for their 3rd round at 12weeks the vet we went to presented what seemed good reasons to include some non core. The 1st set was redone earlier since the breeder had done them themselves which meant no "official" documentation. 

Against my gut, I went with the vet recommendation. Neo literally screamed when he was stuck, and cried like I'd never heard a dog cry. The tech was horrified and very shaken herself. When they went to pick up Remo, he started screaming. His vaccination went badly also. We got home and they both just hid under the sofa all night, shaking and crying. (And, I learned my lesson to not have them together when seeing the vet.) They had both gone thru the previous set and hardly noticed. I later learned that the vet practice was no longer private and was following corporate policy in pushing non core vaccines. I believe that it was the Lyme disease vac which caused this reaction. I swore to my boys then, never again. 

I asked about titering and that practice discouraged it. We decided to go back to our preferred vet practice (another story) and they were much more forthcoming and willing to treat me like a partner in decisions for my boys. She will give the 3 year rabies and I think my local law will allow it. For any other vaccines, we'll look for current information and discuss them with our vet before we act. I hope sense and caution meet.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> ... Against my gut, I went with the vet recommendation. Neo literally screamed when he was stuck, and cried like I'd never heard a dog cry. The tech was horrified and very shaken herself. When they went to pick up Remo, he started screaming. His vaccination went badly also. We got home and they both just hid under the sofa all night, shaking and crying...


Your story and others I've been reading are deeply disturbing. I tend to be too wordy but after thinking about these accounts here and elsewhere, words fail.


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## Scarlet (Apr 20, 2017)

I'll only vaccinate my dogs against rabies at 6 months, and any tiny ones (under 5 pounds) have always gotten reduced dose for rabies, and more frequently than not will do the Benadryl along with them (always with rabies). Rabies vaccine is always given weeks apart from all others. Then after that, titer. 

When I was a child, my parents would get all of our dogs vaccinated against rabies when they were younger... and one of our pups went into shock and died within an hour after her rabies vaccine. Another had a reaction where she couldn't stop scratching herself and then she had a hard time breathing. The vet kept her for almost a week and she was eventually okay, but seeing her like that had left quite the impression on me.

My vets over the years have been wonderful and more than cooperative. The idea of rabies is incredibly scary, of course... but the reactions I've seen personally, along with ones I've read about, are just as scary. I can generally count on myself to protect my pup against any rabid animals for 6 months of its life, and that's the risk I choose to take.

PS: Know the law in your state.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

I fully expect that there will be changes to rabies regulations in the years to come. 

I read recently that there’s a movement of anti-vaxers within the dog community. While I find this entirely wrong-headed, I can’t help but understand the reaction, based on the horror stories (many hearsay) within the community. Stories of vets over vaccinating to serve revenue purposes, negative pet reaction to the shots, etc. Some entities have ramped up the level of fear mongering (which may have started benignly) to include topics of food, supplemental vitamins and vitamin sources, etc. leaving us to question whether there’s a profit motive behind all the talk. 

As a lay person, there’s no doubt that it’s so very difficult to navigate all the information that is out there and come to a reasonable conclusion based on a trusted modicum of fact. On top of that, the health of the individual dog has to be taken into consideration. 

The article below sets out the story of Eddie. As you can see, even the professionals are not prepared to make a link between Eddie’s rabies shot and his subsequent illness. It’s certainly not hard for Eddie’s owner to make that connection. Our previous dog had a similar (but not as severe) event when he was about 6 years old. He was disoriented, stumblng, bloody diarrhea, etc. He got his rabies shot and that night, we had to improvise a diaper from a towel. The next morning, the vet declared it to be a bacterial infection and prescribed antibiotics. I’m quite certain this was not a “reported event”. 

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local...ination-and-now-15000-later-hes-sick-as-a-dog


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Bevvie said:


> I fully expect that there will be changes to rabies regulations in the years to come. I read recently that there’s a movement of anti-vaxers within the dog community. While I find this entirely wrong-headed, I can’t help but understand the reaction... Some entities have ramped up the level of fear mongering to include topics of food, supplemental vitamins and vitamin sources, etc. leaving us to question whether there’s a profit motive behind all the talk...


I so agree with you. I am not an anti-vaxer in any way, shape or form either, with a caveat: profit and well-being for animals (and people) should intersect. 

When I read that typical 4 year old dog would have had three 3-year rabies vaccines and all dogs get the same dosage regardless of weight and size, that's not an intersection - that's profit way up high on the graph with well-being and regard for the consumers far below. It begs the question:

Are the few billion dollar companies who make these 3-year vaccines just too stupid to realize they can earn the same profit by packaging the doses based on the weight of the dog, and get better PR as a result? Or is it callousness, arrogance, or indifference?

And your other point, yes. I've met parents who have been so scared off of vaccines and meds that they swear herbal teas and vitamins are the answer for every problem their kids have, from medical to mental health to behavioral. 

Your linked article on the story of Eddie is excellent. That poor man and his dog. Egan: Eddy had his rabies vaccination, and now, $15,000 later, he’s sick as a dog | Ottawa Citizen[/QUOTE]



Scarlet said:


> ... and one of our pups went into shock and died within an hour after her rabies vaccine. Another had a reaction where she couldn't stop scratching herself and then she had a hard time breathing. The vet kept her for almost a week and she was eventually okay... I can generally count on myself to protect my pup against any rabid animals for 6 months of its life, and that's the risk I choose to take...


Protecting Bella by waiting is the direction I'm taking too. I can't emotionally afford to lose her; I've had too many losses in my life. After the hurricanes last year and seeing people's reactions to saving their dogs, it's clear to all how dogs are bonafide, beloved family members. Many left with the only the clothes on their backs, their kids, and holding their dog rather than grab something else to take. Remember these photos?









The expression on the face in the last photo is how I felt when I learned about the risks over-vaccinating with rabies shots that are given in too large a dose for small dogs. In the pic, she's being consoled by her husband that she, like many others, couldn't bring her dog into the convention center for shelter. Since they were a couple, I hope they could take turns waiting outside with their little dog. I couldn't find what happened to the hundreds or thousands of people who had to give up the pets once they got to a shelter.

As we see from photos #2 & 3, those people stayed outdoors rather than go dog-less into a shelter. And the love and caring on the face of the German Shepard owner, with that look in his dogs eyes strike my heart.

As I said, I hope the rabies manufacturers and lawmakers will take a clue.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

A note to everyone! Just make sure your Vet is using a Thimerosal free vaccine! Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative that is also a neurotoxin and can also cause some serious side effects in some dogs. Google it for more info!
RABVAC (Fort Dodge) and IMRAB (Merial) both make Thimerosal free rabies vaccines.


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## Scarlet (Apr 20, 2017)

Those photos are all horrible, and the last one really made my heart drop. Pure horror... so many have lost so much, including family members -- pets very much in this category.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

From what I understand about vaccines is that they are dissimilar to medications. Medications are dosed by weight so that the drug can reach an effective level in the blood and tissue to perform their function. So, the bigger the animal - the more area to cover (in layman terms). 

Vaccines on the other hand are used to stimulate the animal's immune system, which is not something measured by weight. At least not between a small dog and a large dog. This is probably the reason why a chihuahua and a great dane may be given the same amount of vaccine. 

I think the bigger question here is the regularity of receiving multiple vaccinations and the possibility of over stimulating the dog's immune system. What kind of damage/imbalance might we be causing by insisting on rabies vaccines every year or even every 3 years? What is the impact on the dog's health by injecting more antibodies when the dog already has them his system? 

But, lots of things have changed and are continuing to change. There has been a push back on the pet industry from many different perspectives. People are now questioning commercial foods and wanting to see assurances of the quality behind them. Same with vaccination protocols. More research is going into this and that's why I predict there will be a change on the rabies front in the near future. Whether this is thru titer testing or managing dosage/frequency levels, I can't say.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Bevvie your explanation of the differences between medications such as antimicrobials, pain management drugs or steroids is very good.

That said immunizations are the single most important public health protection against human and animal diseases such as polio, measles, small pox, rabies, distemper, feline immunodeficiency virus and so on. Many of these diseases are disabling or fatal. Rabies which of course infects many species is uniformly fatal. Since rabies does have zoonotic reservoirs that cannot be eliminated the only way to protect ourselves and our companion animals is through rabies immunization and states recognize this through public health laws regarding immunization of dogs against rabies.

As Bevvie noted there isn't a dose based on body weight difference for vaccines at this point in time, but it is not impossible to hope that through lobbying efforts such a change couldn't be made without compromising the effectiveness of the rabies vaccine for small dogs. It is not correct though Vita to assume that having the first and later rabies vaccine doses be the same to assume your dog is being overimmunized. The four month vaccine stimulates primary immunity and teaches your dog's immune system to recognize and be able to respond to the virus on a subsequent exposure. Primary immunity is not as long lasting or strong as secondary immunity which is provoked by the one year later booster. Once secondary immunity is in place it does not need to be reboosted so frequently hence the three year interval.

Most animals (and people) who have adverse reactions to immunizations are not having those reactions in response to the antigens that the vaccine is teaching the immune system to recognize, but rather they are reacting to stabilizers and adjuvants such as thimerosol as mentioned by Molly. Much has been and is continuing to be done to improve adjuvants and stabilizers and to develop alternative vaccine delivery modes such as intra-nasal and other less invasive means.

One of the challenges public health official deal with regarding anti-vaxxers is that many people who don't see the need for vigorous maintenance of immunization programs have never seen a person with post polio syndrome or other suffering that could have been prevented. Maintenance of adequate herd immunity requires the full participation of all to immunize children and pets except in clear situations where underlying medical issues makes immunization unsafe.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

Thanks Lily. I was hoping you'd contribute to this thread. 

It's so difficult to make sense of so much noise around us all the time. What's true, what's not. What makes sense, what doesn't. And like you said Vita, our love for animals goes straight to the heart of family. But I do believe it is that deep love for our animals that is driving a lot of change in the pet industry. No pet food manufacturer, pharma or vet wants to get hit with the accusation that they are harming our animals. 

Lily, totally appreciate your comments about the rabies vaccine. I had always attributed bad reaction to the rabies injection. I never thought, or understood, that much of this can be driven by the additives to the vaccine until you brought it up here. As Molly pointed out, mercury in vaccine. Yikes.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Thimerosol was used in many places for a long time. It was in an older human measles immunization and its presence contributes a lot to the anti-vaxxer mythology about immunization and autism WHICH HAS BEEN DISPROVEN. One of the major proponents of that relationship is a now license revoked and paper retracted by the Lancet British "doctor" who subjected autistic children to invasive and unneeded medical procedures such as spinal taps and CAT scans (think noisy machine not too reassuring to an autistic child). 

It also used to be in contact lens cleaning solutions. Realistically many people are probably exposed to more mercury through diet that includes lots of high level predator fish like swordfish and tuna than through medical solutions. If you eat lots of those fish you actually should probably get your mercury levels tested.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Well put Catherine, mercury levels in fish is why most shelter will not except canned fish cat food.

I did say earlier in this thread that there are Low dose rabies vaccines available for cats now, they have to be done yearly. Small dogs are not the only ones affected by vaccine reactions because of their size cats have for years suffered as well.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

MollyMuiMa said:


> A note to everyone! Just make sure your Vet is using a Thimerosal free vaccine! Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative that is also a neurotoxin and can also cause some serious side effects in some dogs. Google it for more info! RABVAC (Fort Dodge) and IMRAB (Merial) both make Thimerosal free rabies vaccines.


Molly! Thank you! I didn't know this existed and will ask my vet to order it if she doesn't normally carry it.



Scarlet said:


> Those photos are all horrible, and the last one really made my heart drop. Pure horror... so many have lost so much, including family members -- pets very much in this category.


So true, and I can relate to every one of those pics; when it comes to love, we are all of them.



Bevvie said:


> ... Medications are dosed by weight so that the drug can reach an effective level in the blood and tissue to perform their function... Vaccines on the other hand are used to stimulate the animal's immune system, which is not something measured by weight. At least not between a small dog and a large dog. This is probably the reason why a chihuahua and a great dane may be given the same amount of vaccine. ...
> 
> I think the bigger question here is the regularity of receiving multiple vaccinations and the possibility of over stimulating the dog's immune system. What kind of damage/imbalance might we be causing by insisting on rabies vaccines every year or even every 3 years? What is the impact on the dog's health by injecting more antibodies when the dog already has them his system? ...


This is extremely helpful in helping me and others understand, although I'm not wholly convinced that a toy and Great Dane need the same amount of stimulation. I wonder now if it's the _amount_ that cause some dogs, especially the toys, to get so sick or die, or the Thimerosal? Or both?



lily cd re said:


> ... It is not correct though Vita to assume that having the first and later rabies vaccine doses be the same to assume your dog is being overimmunized. The four month vaccine stimulates primary immunity and teaches your dog's immune system to recognize and be able to respond to the virus on a subsequent exposure. Primary immunity is not as long lasting or strong as secondary immunity which is provoked by the one year later booster. Once secondary immunity is in place it does not need to be reboosted so frequently hence the three year interval.
> 
> Most animals (and people) who have adverse reactions to immunizations are not having those reactions in response to the antigens that the vaccine is teaching the immune system to recognize, but rather they are reacting to stabilizers and adjuvants such as thimerosol as mentioned by Molly...


Catherine, thanks for joining. I want to be clear about two things. Is primary immunity from the first shot at 4 months, with secondary immunity from the 3-year vaccine given one year later? Correct?

And do you have any idea why a 3-year vaccine would be given to a 4 month old puppy? As a layperson, I wonder if it's immune system needs that much priming, i.e., why not give a puppy 1/3 to 1/2 the dose of the 3-year boosters? 

This leads me to thinking about what I call 'people management'. A lot of pet owners go to a vet for initial shots including rabies, and don't return until a few years later, if at all. So from a public health standpoint, that feasibly could have factored in the decision-making to give puppies 3-year initial shots, i.e., better to lose a dog than a human life.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Vita I suppose you can think of the initial immunization as being like a primer, but it is something more than that really. A primary immune response makes an immunoglobulin (protein in blood) called IgM and teaches the adaptive immune response to recognize and more importantly to remember. The circulating half life of IgM is relatively short and IgM cannot cross the placenta. When a person or animal is exposed to an antigen (here we mean the actual rabies virus material, not the adjuvants and stabilizers) as second time (or any subsequent time), a memory based secondary response ensues that is stronger and faster than the learning based primary response. Secondary responses produce primarily IgG which has a much longer half life int he blood than IgM and which also can cross the placenta. Secondary responses for certain antigens also provokes IgA (which is secreted in breast milk and is active in the digestive system).

What matters for a first immunization and any subsequent boosters is that there is enough antigen to be seen by and responded to by the immune cells that produce the responses we need. Again it is not the antigen that provokes adverse reactions to immunization, but rather the adjuvants (including the now disused thimerosol). So I don't think it matters whether the vaccine antigen is "one" or "three" year, but the amount of those other things the individual is exposed to. It strikes me that the important thing to do is to work for a second dosing class for smaller dogs as there is a lower dosing for cats. Additionally alternative adjuvant and/or delivery mechanisms could be useful. One of my Maine **** cats did have granulomatous reactions to almost anything injected. My vet and I were both happy when feline distemper became an intranasal vaccine. It gave her no problems.

If you talk to vets outside of the context of their offices or if you know yours well enough to talk about things beyond the immediacy of what is happening in the exam room, you will find that a lot of what they do is about people management. They want to do the best they can for animals in the context of knowing that many owners are either clueless or will go cheap on their pet's healthcare. I have known a number of vets as friends over the years and this has been an issue for every single one of them.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

WOW Lily! Thanks for the disseminated info for us lay folks. It really helps and now I'm convinced that everyone needs a scientist in their family or friend circle! 

So often, we are asked to make decisions without all the information we need to make those decisions. But, that's another topic for another day.

What also struck me about your reply was the comment about vets. 

This I have seen with Copper's current vet. I queried him about titer testing during one of Copper's earlier appointments. I immediately saw a veil drop over his face as he explained that the test can be done but there is an expense to it. After some prodding and questioning as to what he would recommend, he very carefully set out his proposal, watching for reaction. 

After the appt, I started to think about his hesitancy in the answers and how I should interpret that. I felt the best way to do that was step into his shoes for a moment and that's when it hit me. There's been such an overload of information that customers are questioning/challenging the vet's opinion that it makes them leery because of the potential customer backlash. There's also the expense concern in that some customers are reactive to the perceived high costs of the vets. In some ways, I can't help but wonder if we've muzzled our vets and attached our pet-care wagon to social media and opinions that are sometimes not validated by quality research/science. 

It's tricky stuff. There was a documentary a short while back that alleged pet food manufacturers were compromising vet students by giving them complimentary bags of food?? Do we think so lowly of our vets that they could be bought by a bag of dog food?


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes, thank you Lily for boiling down the most important scientific facts to something we can easily understand and truly appreciate. It's great to have a voice of reason in the vaccine chaos out there.

I have also queried my vet about titer testing; while they weren't opposed and would do it for me if I really wanted it done, they weren't really excited about recommending it. The cost was also going to be about $300. My vets alternate every other year (after initial immunity is built) with rabies and DHPP; while not the three year cycle, it does mean they only get one core vaccine a year and not both every year. I choose to vacc, because I think the risks for my dogs to be unvaccinated far outweigh the risks of being.

I have had a vaccine reaction myself (but I would re-vaccinate myself), but I have personally never seen a vaccine reaction in a dog. My one friend has a dog with bad allergies and he does react to vaccine contents, so she has quit giving him vaccines and will only do the rabies if he needs to cross the border for some reason or she gets caught. She's willing to risk in it his best interests because he reacts every time and she doesn't want it to get worse. She titers and has that paperwork to prove it. In a dog where you know they react, it is a much different story than in a healthy dog that you don't vaccinate because you are anti-pharm. 

As science progresses and consumers push for options, let's hope that other non-injection type vaccines with adjuvants that dogs react less to come into play or size based doses or anything that may help reduce reactions.



Bevvie said:


> In some ways, I can't help but wonder if we've muzzled our vets and attached our pet-care wagon to social media and opinions that are sometimes not validated by quality research/science.


That's a very interesting point. I was talking to my boss's wife one day. Their granddaughter was going in for her first vaccines. My boss and his wife are very healthy, take care of themselves kind of people, the type you might expect to be anti-vacc despite being rational people. So I asked her, what would you do if you were her mom? She was on the fence. Like so many other people regarding vaccines. When you sit on the fence like that, it is quite easy to be converted to a camp with irrational/targeted/fear-mongering propaganda. And unfortunately, the anti-vacc side has more propaganda out there than the scientists right now. 

My closing comment on the matter was: We have to be very careful to diligently vet where we are getting our information. The information out there is typically so polarized, we have difficulty discerning truth. I look for information that is middle ground and rate it as more truthful over the polarized propaganda. We have practitioners out there to guide us in our decisions (vets, doctors, homeopaths, etc) and they have far more experience and training in these matters than the average person. Why should we believe "mommy-bloggers" over trained professionals?

Be informed, have open discussions with your vet, but don't put the care of the people and animals you love in the hands of a practitioner that you can't trust. And then trust that practitioner to guide you.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

My understanding is that one single rabies vaccine does not always mount long term immunity in all dogs. This is why a booster is required, one year after the initial vaccine, and is why you cannot start getting three year rabies registration until after the booster has been given. Schultz has some research on actually doing the two boosters quite close together. The reason is that since some dogs do require two shots to be protected, waiting a year for the second rabies vaccine leaves some dogs unprotected. The other reason is that there are some documented cases of the development of aggression issues in dogs who were vaccinated for rabies during adolescence. Schultz was a proponent of this method for a number of years, but he's retired now due to illness and it's not something commonly accepted by most vets. 

But, yes, both 1 year and 3 year rabies vaccines are the same amount of vaccine. The difference is the amount you pay and the length of time that vaccine is registered for.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

All other vaccines protocols can be argued. 

The rabies vaccine can't. 

It's the law.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CM that issue of not always being protected well from the first dose makes perfect sense and is a good case for doing the second dose sooner to provoke that really strong and enduring secondary response that a booster gives.

I think the issue of internet and social media "research" may be a big factor in how vets deal with the people they talk with. When I talk with our vet we have a 20+ year history of me bringing 3 cats and now 3 dogs to him. He knows me well as I do him and we know we can have a professional conversation (that he may not be able to have with other clients in the same way). I imagine that many of our human care providers have the same issues with their patients. While I do have a Ph.D. in immunology and took many medical school courses as part of my graduate education I am neither a physician or a veterinarian and I don't pretend to me when talking with them. I may ask different questions, but I do defer to their experience and expertise. Imagine being asked all day long by patients who have simply seen ads with "ask your doctor if ______ is right for you" how that feels to professional people who have done scholarly inquiry about drugs.

Totally on another track (but not really), a couple of summers ago I had a student ask what I thought was an off the wall question during a lecture on mammalian body temperature homeostasis. I had just finished talking about how we have thermostat mechanisms designed to keep our brains and hearts from not just overheating but also from getting too cold. The student asked why, if our bodies wouldn't normally allow us to cool down, was a "cold sauna good for you." My reply was something to the effect of who said a cold sauna was good for you. Her answer was she read it online. The discussion that followed was about how dotcom sites are people selling you something and .edu or .org or even .gov will be more likely to give you findings of research and certainly won't be selling you anything. Sadly many of my students (and people at large) are not good at discriminating the validity of what they see in social media or other environments. My dad had a great expression that was "believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see." In other words be skeptically discriminating. I am not sure how he would have adapted that expression to this world which was just emerging when he passed from this earth in the mid/late 1990s.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Countryboy said:


> All other vaccines protocols can be argued.
> 
> The rabies vaccine can't.
> 
> It's the law.



Since I was typing while you posted I didn't see your comment until after I hit the reply button. Yes rabies immunization is mandated by law, however that doesn't mean the vaccine can't be improved or modified or that the laws regarding schedules and dosing can't be amended based on new knowledge. I fully immunize our dogs, but understand those who want to minimize exposures and risks. However those decisions should not jeopardize public health and not immunizing against rabies on a broad scale most certainly would do so.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Ja... I saw you and me post at the same time. Great minds, eh? 

And of course, C... don't get me wrong. I've a bit of a hate-on for the rabies vaccine myself, and I'm enjoying the conversation. There's some valuable insight and information in the thread.

But just in case anybody gets lost in the trees...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Rabies immunization is complex. It is really important to give it, but it is also a vaccine that could benefit from some research and modification. Rabies used to be a terrible danger and rabid dogs ran rampant in many well developed cities such as Paris and London as well as pandemically throughout the world. There was very good reason to be afraid of wild dogs, nearly all of whom at least had the potential to be rabid. Once signs and symptoms appear rabies is 100% fatal, and miserably so. Maintenance of rabies immunization has eradicated it in human ecosystems in many parts of the world and island have the luxury of potentially never having to worry about it if they control the import of potential rabies carrier animals.

That said although the vaccine is generally quite safe, as with any vaccine there is the potential for adverse reactions. We do need to remember that those risks are very small and that the balance favors protection over being concerned about adverse reactions. In the case of Molly where there is a history of an adverse event then there should be allowances for exception. I also think though that learning from adverse reactions about their basis gives data to reexamine and reformulate in a way to reduce the risks while maintaining the clear public health benefits. This applies to human immunizations as well.

Frank this is an interesting discussion and even prickly POV should be part of it. Can I ask what your specific concerns are about rabies vaccines?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sitting in microbiology lab right now with students doing microscope work (in other words not too much for me to do for them) and I started noodling through my bookmarks for work materials and found this. https://rabiesalliance.org/world-rabies-day You all might find some interesting since we are talking about rabies. World rabies day in generally at the end of November, but there is a lot of really useful information on the Rabies Alliance site.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Thank you all, especially Catherine, for the very detailed information and explanations that are understandable. I would comment more right now but I've had a long day at work and another one expected for tomorrow, and am very tired.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Is it really necessary to revaccinate once immunity is established? The only revaccination I get is tetanus every ten years. My own practice is to get puppy shots and boosters a year later, but after that I only give the legally required three year rabies shot. Once my dog is elderly I don't even give that. I'm finding this thread very interesting, really appreciate the input from those "in the know".


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

reraven123 said:


> Once my dog is elderly I don't even give that.


That's just the kind of 'information' that I'm wary of. Young, old, elderly or not, a rabies vaccine is not optional... it's mandatory. You don't get a choice.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

reraven123 said:


> *Is it really necessary to revaccinate once immunity is established?* The only revaccination I get is tetanus every ten years. My own practice is to get puppy shots and boosters a year later, but after that I only give the legally required three year rabies shot. Once my dog is elderly I don't even give that. I'm finding this thread very interesting, really appreciate the input from those "in the know".



Yes it is unless you have titers to demonstrate otherwise. Immunity wanes, even IgG based secondary immunity, and boosters give the immune system a reminder and wake up call. But for rabies not giving the vaccine is a violation of law and flies in the face of the global effort to eradicate human rabies due to dog bites. As to human immunizations most of us are profoundly underimmunized as adults In addition to tetanus adults should also maintain boosted immunity to diphtheria and pertussis (Tdap or Dtap vaccine). Depending on your age and other personal considerations shingles and pneumococcal vaccines and most assuredly influenza. For this year the flu is particularly bad and for people seeking care in hospitals there are shortages of things like IV solutions in some places because these are made in Puerto Rico (which was a center of advanced manufacturing of medical devices and pharmaceuticals before hurricane Maria destroyed it). 

Other vaccines may be recommended for travel to certain locations in addition to those mentioned above. Here is a link to the CDC's adult immunization page. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/adults/index.html


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Illinois has an exemption from rabies vaccination for any animal that may have its health compromised by the vaccine. Same with Alabama, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Maine, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Virginia, and Wisconsin. Pennsylvania has a temporary exemption and requires the dog be examined yearly. https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/Rabies state law chart.pdf

My vet is not going to vaccinate Francis anymore because of her mast cell tumor. They didn't vaccinate our cat after his fibrocarcoma. Not that vaccines trigger cancer, of course, but because after a cancer diagnosis there is a greater risk to the animal from the vaccine. Herd immunity matters! You're not only protecting your own animal, but you're also protecting those who can't get the vaccine like Francis and Cyclone.

If you've been immunized against shingles, thank you! As a chemo patient, I can't get live virus vaccines, so I rely on everyone else to get theirs. If you don't get sick, I won't get sick either.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well said, Click about the importance of herd immunity. I am sure you and Francis are very glad that others will do their part to protect you. While the goal of vaccination is to try to eradicate the disease as was successfully done this effort does not require 100% immunization compliance to succeed, just as high as is possible compliance to give the virus (or other pathogen no place to go).


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Yes it is unless you have titers to demonstrate otherwise


I did titer for a few years in the 90's until my vet told me that the results weren't necessarily meaningful. She said they didn't have good information yet about what specific levels of antibodies in the blood constituted immunity. Presumably that has changed in the past 20 years. Anyway, I have a couple of years before Zephyr is due for any shots again, so have some time to decide what protocol I will follow with him. Thanks for all the info, I will definitely keep this discussion in mind.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would agree that titering is probably much more reliable now than 20 years ago in terms of understanding what levels are protective and when boosters are really needed.

One other thing we need to remember and which may play a role in what vets recommend is that if you titer you go to the vet and the dog has a blood draw. The blood is sent for the titer testing. Now the vet calls you to tell you results and maybe that include needing a booster for something. Now you have to go back again to get the booster. The vet may be concerned that you won't come back in a timely manner and therefore are likely to steer towards boosting without titering. Another issue then also is you saying well why did I bother with the titer if now I still have to pay to go back and get the immunization. Some people will feel like they are being nickle and dimed to death. My vet knows me well enough that if I decided to titer rather than reboosting on a regular basis that I would come back if needed, but not all vets can say that about all of their clients.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

reraven123 said:


> Is it really necessary to revaccinate once immunity is established? The only revaccination I get is tetanus every ten years. My own practice is to get puppy shots and boosters a year later, but after that I only give the legally required three year rabies shot. Once my dog is elderly I don't even give that. I'm finding this thread very interesting, really appreciate the input from those "in the know".


It may not be necessary to revaccinate once immunity is established, and probably isn't necessary as often as it's done currently, and the Rabies Challenge Fund has sought to establish longer "minimums" to hopefully change laws moving forward. The issue is that Rabies is a real public health risk and the laws are developed around managing the public health risk rather than based solely in the actual immunology of the vaccine. Hopefully in time things will change, but probably not going to be a fast change. For example, titers showing immunity to rabies are not acceptable legally as an alternative to vaccinating in any state in the US.


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## Bevvie (Jun 17, 2017)

Just out of interest, I searched previous PF forums with respect to rabies inoculation. Truth be told, I didn’t go that far back but what I did see was that none of the threads had the breadth of information that this one did. A topic that branched into titer testing, fundamentals of immunization, vet care, etc. So ....

First, thanks Vita for posting the thread topic. It’s an important one and I think anyone who read the posts would come away with better knowledge on this topic than they had before. 

Second, Lily. Thanks so much for your input! You were so important to the information on this thread. It’s not often that we can get that vital science piece incorporated into our understanding of these topical topics. 

Before this starts sounding like the PF Golden Globe Awards, I just wanted to add a personal story of immunization. Late last fall, my throat seized up. And when I say “seized”, I’m not kidding. Couldn’t swallow, couldn’t drink, couldn’t eat. Off to the ER where I was diagnosed with a condition called epiglottitis. The ENT specialist declared that I arrived at hospital at exactly the right time and started me immediately on a series of IV drips and then straight in to the ICU, when a bed became available that evening. Thing was, I didn’t feel particularly sick but this throat thing was extremely irritating. Four days later, I was discharged .. feeling incredibly awkward for being in ICU, reading my kindle, playing games on my tablet, following some PF posts, chatting to the nurses. I almost felt like I was cheating the health care system for being there as other patients lie almost comatose in their beds. It took until the fifth day of the illness before I could handle tiny little bits of vanilla pudding and could actually let a bit of water trickle down my throat from sucking on melted ice chips. 

Turns out, the condition is caused by an Hib infection. Historically, young children were infected by it with very serious consequences, including death. By the early 1970’s, Hib protection was included in the rounds of childhood inoculation protocol. I believe its referred to as Tdap. If you were inoculated before the 1970’s (which I was) and never received a booster shot (which I didn’t) you were at risk for Hib related diseases. Well, that chicken sure came home to roost!! 

There is a caveat to this story. First off, epiglottitis is a very rare condition and secondly, it seems to strike at persons 65 and older who never had the booster shot. But for any of you who fit my criteria of no booster shots after the early 1970’s, best go check with your doc about the Tdap booster. 

Seems to me that there’s nothing static about immunization and its application. What works well today may work even better tomorrow. When it comes to our pets, our “trusted” vets will be the carriers and deliverers of the newer and better applications. 

(BTW Galofpink – what your vet told you about titer testing for Shae was exactly what Copper’s vet told me. He wasn’t particularly excited about it, explained the costs and suggested that if we wanted to go ahead, it was probably better done when Copper was around the age of 5.)


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Illinois has an exemption from rabies vaccination for any animal that may have its health compromised by the vaccine. Same with Alabama, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Florida, Maine, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Virginia, and Wisconsin. Pennsylvania has a temporary exemption and requires the dog be examined yearly. https://www.avma.org/Advocacy/StateAndLocal/Documents/Rabies state law chart.pdf
> quote]
> 
> There are some states that allow exemptions, but the dog is still legally treated as an unvaccinated one. So, for example, if the dog bites someone or is present when another dog bites someone, the dog will be treated as an unvaccinated dog rather than a vaccinated one.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Yes, this has been a very enlightening, non-combative and respectful discussion on an issue that can easily get out of hand. 



Bevvie said:


> I believe its referred to as Tdap. If you were inoculated before the 1970’s (which I was) and never received a booster shot (which I didn’t) you were at risk for Hib related diseases.
> 
> (BTW Galofpink – what your vet told you about titer testing for Shae was exactly what Copper’s vet told me. He wasn’t particularly excited about it, explained the costs and suggested that if we wanted to go ahead, it was probably better done when Copper was around the age of 5.)


Tdap is a different vaccine than hib, but usually a hib inoculation is given in a combo booster including Tdap. For Ontario, DTaP-IPV-Hib vaccine is recommended 4x for infants/toddlers, then Tdap-IPV at 4-6yo and then just Tdap at 14-16yo and every 10yrs afterward. If you haven't been protected before, and are concerned about it, it makes sense to get the Hib portion with your next Tdap.

(BTW Bevvie - Yes, I was looking for Rocky, who was 8 at the time and it makes more sense for. For Shae, they expressed the same sentiment - more practical when she is older after a couple more rounds of vaccines.)


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Your dog MUST be vaccinated against rabies. That's why we as a society have made it a law. Exceptions to that rule will be made by your vet. Your opinions don't count. 

And like CM says, if there's a problem like a bite, then serious Law takes over. Your opinions really don't count then. It will be completely out of your hands. 

With a dog with a history, I've been thru all this. I finally got happy with it when I flicked the switch in my brain that turned on the 'One of Those Things I Can do Nothing About' sign... and I let it go.

Now, every three years, we get the shot... it's the law.

Oooooommmm....


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Well yes, I'm convinced. It was a hard decision to make after reading the horror stories. 

I also considered my late tpoo and my kids' tpoo (both quite oversized and 12 lbs, unlike Bella who is barely 4-lbs and will probably max out at 5, maybe 6), each had at least two rabies shots. Don't hate, I was raising my kids back then, working full time, and 15 and 25+ years ago it never occurred to me since they were house dogs. Now the kids are on their own and I have more time to think about stuff. Anyway, neither dog suffered ill health from their shots and lived long, but remembering how busy and distracted by life I was then, I probably didn't get their rabies shots until they were half a year old. In two weeks Bella will be six months old; I'll take her in then for my own peace of mind. 

It will be hard, but then I've thought, what if on a walk she encounters a dead bat by a tree and grabs it before I see it? Only this month this child died tragically from a bat scratch:






*By the way*, does anyone know if your dog has up to date rabies vaccines and has contact with a living or dead rabid animal, would animal control kill your dog anyway or just give it another booster and quarantine it? 

Anyway...

I have discovered the *Rabies Challenge Fund* website (link). Dr. Jean Dodds, Dr. Ron Schultz, and Kris Christine are the team behind this and involved in the study. _"The purpose was to determine if the duration of immunity from commercially available rabies vaccines was longer than 3 years, with the goal of extending state-mandated rabies boosters for dogs to 5, and then 7 years."_

I was quite surprised, however, that under the section of Contributors - and there a bunch of them - Poodle Club of America was absent. Only five poodle clubs were listed, but not the PCA, which is baffling to me.

I will be contributing to them b/c I think their study and work is valuable and could change the laws so both people and our dogs can be safe.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Vita I would check your state law to find out what happens if an immunized dog bites someone. I believe at worst there is a quarantine likely (aside from any issues of dangerous dog laws).


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Catherine, no, my question wasn't if a immunized dog bites someone; it's what happens to someone's dog (after she's immunized) it comes into contact with a living or dead rabid animal? At least in most states? Do they kill the dog anyway?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sorry I misunderstood. No I don't think you would run into something like that. The whole point is that the dog is protected from that exposure and therefore people are protected.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

https://www.petmd.com/blogs/thedailyvet/dr-coates/2016/march/new-rabies-guidelines-published-33699

Rabies guidelines


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Vita said:


> *By the way*, does anyone know if your dog has up to date rabies vaccines and has contact with a living or dead rabid animal, would animal control kill your dog anyway or just give it another booster and quarantine it?


You'd need to look up local laws, but I believe in the case of rabies exposure most places a dog who has a record of at least one rabies shot would be quarantined and one who has never had a rabies shot would be euthanized.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Twyla,* the petmd.com site has a link to rabiesaware.org, which has a map of the US. 

You click on your state and it gives the actual number of rabies cases broken down by cats, dogs, racoons, foxes, and other wildlife. I found this very informative and should help other PF members who live in the states too. 

So I'm not so much of a scaredy-cat anymore. I've learned a great deal from this thread, and will bite the bullet and get Bella vaccinated as I said earlier with a vet who carries or will order the 



Bevvie said:


> Just out of interest, I searched previous PF forums with respect to rabies inoculation. Truth be told, I didn’t go that far back but what I did see was that none of the threads had the breadth of information that this one did. A topic that branched into titer testing, fundamentals of immunization, vet care, etc. So ....
> 
> First, thanks Vita for posting the thread topic. It’s an important one and I think anyone who read the posts would come away with better knowledge on this topic than they had before.
> 
> ...


Bevvie, I agree this is a valuable thread and I hadn't found this dearth of information either on PF or elsewhere. And what would we do without *Catherine (Lily cd re)*? Bevvie, thank you for this other info about Hib. I'm 62 now and can't recall getting any shots in high school or beyond other than tetanus shots, and last year the pneumococcal and shingles vaccines.



MollyMuiMa said:


> A note to everyone! Just make sure your Vet is using a Thimerosal free vaccine! Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative that is also a neurotoxin and can also cause some serious side effects in some dogs. Google it for more info! RABVAC (Fort Dodge) and IMRAB (Merial) both make *Thimerosal free rabies vaccines*.


And Molly, I added your input again just in case anyone missed it. Thank you again for introducing it into this discussion. I do hope and pray your wonderful poodle has no more problems with future rabies shots and lives a very, very long and healthy life. 

*Quick story*: A nurse in my daughter's high school may have saved her life. In my daughter's senior year, only months before graduation, the nurse was going through all the records of students and my kid hadn't had an updated Meningitis vaccine. She sent me a letter which I ignored b/c she was so close to leaving. Then she called me and said my kid couldn't return to school if I didn't get the shot in a week. I was sooo annoyed (and stupid). So I took off from work and got her the shot, grumbling the whole time. 

In her 2nd year of college, I think in 2014, one of her best friends at the university suddenly became ill and died from meningitis. It was _horrible_ and a very painful way to go. They had been hanging out a day or two before the girl got sick. It was mind-blowing, not only the death of her young and vivacious friend, but that if the nurse not been so persistent, my kid could have caught it also and died. I tried to find that school nurse to thank her but she had left the job by then. 

This discussion has brought back a lot of memories. I can't thank her, but I can thank all of you here. -Vita


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I can share a story of what can happen if rabies vaccinations are not up to date.

One of my friends was taking care of the cat of another friend. The owner of the cat had to be out of town for an extended period to take care of her sister who was dying of cancer. She was gone for two years. The cat had been previously vaccinated against rabies 3 times, but during the course of the two years that the cat was staying with my friend, the rabies vaccination expired. The friend who was taking care of the cat had no idea about rabies or the need to vaccinate, and the friend whose sister was dying had other things on her mind. So the rabies vaccination was out of date by maybe a year or more.

The cat was a mostly indoor but sometimes outside cat. She never went very far. One evening when the cat was outside, my friend heard the sounds of an animal fight. She ran outside to find that the cat had been bitten, but she did not see the other animal that had been in the fight. Without thinking that this was a big deal, my friend took the cat to the vet to have the wound checked. Well let me tell you -- when a pet is bitten by "an unknown animal," and that pet is not up to date on its rabies vaccination, it is a HUGE deal. The vet had a responsibility to report the event to local authorities. Initially the township officials said that the cat would have to be either quarantined at the vet's office for 6 months, or euthanized -- two very bad options. Fortunately the vet spoke to the township authorities and and explained that the cat had been vaccinated 3 times, and he pointed to scientific evidence that vaccinations actually are good for more than 3 years. After a lot of discussion, the township officials agreed to allow the the cat to be quarantined in my friend's house for six months with no trips outside or away from the house. The vet and the officials both did a final inspection of the cat after six months. It all worked out in the end, but the result could have been very different if the vet didn't go to bat for my friends (and for the cat), or if the officials were not reasonable and lenient. 

As CB said, it is pretty much out of your hands.


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## The Spork (Jan 24, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> That said immunizations are the single most important public health protection against human and animal diseases such as polio, measles, small pox, rabies, distemper, feline immunodeficiency virus and so on. Many of these diseases are disabling or fatal. Rabies which of course infects many species is uniformly fatal. Since rabies does have zoonotic reservoirs that cannot be eliminated the only way to protect ourselves and our companion animals is through rabies immunization and states recognize this through public health laws regarding immunization of dogs against rabies.


Thanks Lily for your informed comments on this discussion (are you a MPH?), I have been looking into immunization schedules as I have not had a puppy this young before, as with other animals in the past I have given many of my immunization shots myself; and am still trying to figure out if that is my best option so I don't give too many shots at one time.

I cannot imagine skipping rabies here in SE Texas with the prevalence of rabid bats, which still leave me wondering how long I should wait to give that immunization, AKC schedule shows it as early as 12 weeks. Does anyone else give their SPoo their own vaccinations, and does this cause any problems with their health records when visiting urban veteranarins/clinics?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No not an MPH, but a Ph.D. in immunology, microbiology and pathology with a strong interest in public health. I emphasize the public health of immunization in my teaching since many of my students are in the right age range to be anti-vaxxer inclined.

In most states the only persons who can give rabies vaccines are veterinarians (not even their techs). 

Although my vets are more prone to want to give boosters than to do titers they do understand and readily respect our desire to not load too many on at once. We always have rabies done at least two weeks away from any other boosters. Since my poodles travel a lot to matches and trials and we track I do more vaccines than some people might be inclined towards including leptospirosis and lyme disease and sometimes _Bordatella_. We do distemper/lepto in one visit and Lyme separately and Rabies separately and _Bordatella_ also separately although I might do that along with Lyme. I think it makes sense to talk to your vet before they have the syringes out and plan a schedule that provokes effective immune responses, and satisfies the public health issues and the desire to avoid adverse events.


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## The Spork (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks for insight Dr. (Lily), I would get the rabies shot from the vet for sure, in Texas a tech can administer under direct supervision of a vet or a vet can prescribe to a client that has a long standing relationship (may only apply to livestock). I will be moving to Michigan in a couple months and would rather not make multiple vet visits with someone who I am not developing a relationship with and was thinking of administering my third shot myself, DHLPP, and only visiting a vet for the rabies and bordatella if I decide to get it as well (I have heard reactions are more common with this shot as well). 

I would be curious hearing the opinions of others on home administration of some of the basic immunizations.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

More on the rabies vaccine from Georgia. A new law???

I don't know whether to laud the vet with the no-vaccines-to-sick-dogs attitude or condemn her for having a Doodle.

Atlanta News Videos | WSB-TV


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The Spork said:


> I would be curious hearing the opinions of others on home administration of some of the basic immunizations.


No reason why not if you purchase from a reliable source and store properly. But the issue you might run into is that some vets and outside places (training facilities, etc.) may not accept owner given vaccines.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> No reason why not if you purchase from a reliable source and store properly. But the issue you might run into is that some vets and outside places (training facilities, etc.) may not accept owner given vaccines.


I am glad you commented since I do think that breeders are more likely to give vaccines to puppies than the rest of us. The point you raise about record keeping is important to consider though.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> I am glad you commented since I do think that breeders are more likely to give vaccines to puppies than the rest of us. The point you raise about record keeping is important to consider though.


I'm super cautious so I recently started to have my vet purchase and store vaccines for me. And I actually have her go ahead and give the vaccines (for a small fee) during the 8 week check up. But I know a lot of breeders who give vaccines themselves and I think that's fine. What I used to do was purchase them myself and bring them to my vet, who gave them free of charge during the checkup. However because he didn't purchase the vaccines, it didn't go on their record. At least in that case I figured most puppies go on to have their final vaccines given by a vet, so they have that on record for training facilities, etc. But, I do like the reassurance of the vet buying and storing them. That way if a pup gets sick with parvo or distemper, the vaccine company should assist with some costs.


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## Scarlet (Apr 20, 2017)

This story touched me deeply when it happened, and I thought it was worth mentioning here since it's on topic. Important to be aware of everything that can go wrong in any scenario (and the reason I still prefer titers to the risk of over-vaccination): 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/sets/72157623375536209/


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Scarlet, I get it that bad things happen sometimes, but the sometimes are really almost vanishingly rare. If adverse reactions cost more than the protection the immunizations offer in prevented illnesses then it is not effective to give them. And really the risk:benefit analysis heavily favors immunizing. I do hope you comply with rabies laws of your area, but understand your desire to titer other things.


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## Miz34 (Jan 20, 2018)

peppersb said:


> I can share a story of what can happen if rabies vaccinations are not up to date.
> 
> One of my friends was taking care of the cat of another friend. The owner of the cat had to be out of town for an extended period to take care of her sister who was dying of cancer. She was gone for two years. The cat had been previously vaccinated against rabies 3 times, but during the course of the two years that the cat was staying with my friend, the rabies vaccination expired. The friend who was taking care of the cat had no idea about rabies or the need to vaccinate, and the friend whose sister was dying had other things on her mind. So the rabies vaccination was out of date by maybe a year or more.
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing this story. Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I’m on a rabies research kick  My havanese is due for his 3 year booster next month. I’ve been looking at all the statistics on reactions and have seen that small breed, neutered, young adult males are at the highest risk for reaction. He’s 4 years old and 8 lbs. he’s had his one year and then three year rabies shots already. He will be vaccinated for rabies as it is the law. He gets titered for distemper and passes with flying colors. Anyway, I’ve been doing a TON of research and peppers story confirms what I’ve been reading. 

It’s the law, at least where I live, if an Unvaccinated animal comes in contact with a potentially rabid animal, that unvaccinated animal would be euthanized and it’s head would be chopped off and sent to the lab for testing. That’s it. It’s harsh and sad but that’s how it is. 

Taking the cat from the story above, it is not considered an unvaccinated animal. It had been vaccinated in the past, so even though it may not be up to date, it was not regarded as unvaccinated. The worst that can happen is confiscation and confinement for observation, and maybe a fine. 

In my state, if my dog was past due on his rabies and we went in for any reason to the vet, they can legally vaccinate that dog without my permission. That seems a little crazy, but that’s how it is. They do allow exemptions but we have no reason to apply. I could titer for rabies, and I think I will to send to the rabies challenge fund. 

I’m going to vaccinate my dog for rabies and pray that in another three years rabies titers will be accepted or they will move the law to 5 years instead of 3. 


I wanted to edit this as it was a little disorganized. Here is where I'm at: my dog is a small toy breed. He's had Lyme disease (asymptomatic now) and has luxating patellas. Do I try to find a vet that will give me an exemption because of these issues? If I did that, and he came in contact with a rabid animal and wasn't protected (though theoretically, I would be able to know if he was protected because I would have him titered) or he was out in the backyard and ate something rabid that I didn't know about, and bit a child or someone else, how would I feel? TERRIBLE. I love my dog more than words, but he is not a person. These laws are in place to protect the people. 

ON THE OTHER HAND... if I skip happily to my vet and tell them to vaccinate and he has an adverse reaction, how would I feel? There are HUGE risks to both sides. 

The story above and my research indicates that disobeying this law doesn't have much consequence unless the dog comes in contact with rabies, and even then, you can stick them in confinement for a few months and will maybe get a fine. According to some new studies, after 2 shots of the vaccine at the appropriate times, the animal should be protected for life. Vets in vet school are required to have rabies shots. They are then titered every few years. THAT'S RIGHT. Our own vets who could come into contact with rabies during their jobs are not vaccinated for rabies on a regular schedule, but vaccinated once and titered thereafter. 

I appreciate the rabies fund challenge efforts, as well as a doctor in CT that is challenging dosing. He has cited several research papers and gotten veterinary opinions that prove that vaccines SHOULD be dose-dependent for our pets. They tried to pass a bill in CT last year that would allow vets to make decisions based on dosing for Rabies vaccines and it went nowhere. I feel like some change is on the horizon, I just hope it happens fast enough to benefit my current pups because these two are my heart dogs (can I have two heart dogs? Is that allowed? ahha).


Also I just saw that it's the law to vaccinate ferrets against rabies in my state. Never heard that one before.


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