# Best approach to a shy poodle?



## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

Gryphon and I have been together (with my husband...he is sort of a third wheel right now...) for about a month, and he is absolutely amazing in almost every aspect. I know things will get more challenging with him as he gets older and goes through those lovely stages of puppy stubbornness and defiance, but right now I find myself slightly bewilder by a few quirks Gryphon has going on.

The first problem for me is that he seems to be absolutely terrified of small white dogs. He tries to run away on the leash, but obviously can't so he will just do a tail tuck and tug a bit and then cuddle up against me. My last dog had dominance issues, so his training was pretty much all about not ever giving into him (if he would start pulling in one direction, we would change direction, or stop the walk until he would sit and allow us to lead-no pups going through doors first etc). I have done some reading and it seems highly suggested to allow the puppy to create what he feels is a safe amount of space, and allow him to observe and find out that whatever it is that is scaring him isn't scary on his own terms-and then continue the walk. This strategy makes sense to me, but for one fact:

this behaviour is triggered by runners, bikes, motorcycles, busses/large transport vehicles, and worst of all children aged 5-8 years. This would pretty much make his walk last hours, or be practically non existent-it would be more sitting than walking!

He is extremely reserved when meeting new people, and we never force the situation. I never make him meet kids, etc, or do cruel things to worsen his fears.

I know it's my responsibility to socialize him as a puppy, and I have been taking him all over my city (into stores, pup play class, the park, we sit and watch children play, sports games, to the bus stop to meet people, and he meets everyone around my building complex. The place where I take him for his excercise walks is a beautiful walking/biking trail through the woods, where we probably encounter at least 3-5 bikes a day, and about an equal amount of runners/walkers). 

I make sure not to reward fearful behaviour (I don't attempt to speak to, or soothe him, or pet him etc), and once his fear seems to subside or if he appears to be acting brave then I give him lots of praise. 

In terms of training tools/commands I have at my disposal: I have a clicker, which I have started marking with treats, and he does know sit and stay although when extremely distracted or afraid it's very difficult to get his attention. With my terrier we dealt with over excitement with greeting people very easily with a "watch me" command to get his attention back. Gryphon doesn't seem to want to be bothered by petty bribery when he thinks he is in danger!

How do I boost this dogs confidence? He has been like this since day one, and I am afraid that if we allow his fears to get out of control he will react with aggression potentially one day.

Edit: Basic starts for him the week of the 17th, in my area there were hardly any start dates that both my husband and I could make it to. I have been training him basic from what I learned when I did it with my terrier, but we think it will help if it doesn't overwhelm him to be in a group. Is this a good idea for a fearful dog, or should I try getting his fear in check before I start group classes? Private training here is around 75-100$ plus tax (13%!!), which I am also willing to do if that's what he needs.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

How old is Gryphon? He may well be going through a puppy fear period.

Poppy was very shy as a puppy. I worked hard to convince her that I would always protect her - as you say, never forcing her close to things that frightened her, but also stepping between her and the scary stuff, and making as wide a circuit as possible around it. I think there is a difference between recognising fear and providing support, and reinforcing it - I was always very determined to ensure my dogs know they can look to me for protection no matter what. I always had a pocket of treats, and encouraged nice people - especially children - to drop them for her. It helped that we usually walked with Sophy, who is very confident about children and dogs, and certainly helped Poppy get over her fears - if you know anyone with a well-socialised, confident dog it would certainly be worth trying.

But mostly is was time and perseverance. I kept telling myself that by the time she was two she would be fine, while taking every opportunity to ensure she had happy, gentle, confidence building experiences. And one day I realised that she had just passed 24 months, and had been fine for some time!

If you have a reward-based class locally, with an understanding instructor, I would opt for talking him to classes, even if you just sit on the side lines for the first few sessions. Don't let anyone persuade you into pushing him beyond his comfort zone, and certainly don't use any forceful methods or equipment with him, but a relaxed, happy puppy class may be just the confidence boost that he needs.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

He is just turning 13 weeks old tomorrow.

Thanks for your response, when I took him for his 1h (yes my 13 week old poodle already likes a 1h *eep*) I decided to let him choose his buffer zone whenever we saw a bike coming, or a runner (we unfortunately did not encounter any kids today-it's a little rainy out), and by the time we turned around to come back he no longer needed to create an extra buffer between the runners and the bikes (just being on the opposite side of the trail was fine). He would still slow down a little, but I didn't push it and he would speed back up once they passed. He even completely ignored two cyclists. 

I never thought of using another dog, my cairn terrier is really well behaved (it took him until he was 2 years old to get there, too) and he loves children. 

Do you think it would be pushing it too much to invite a well behaved child over to play with my cairn in the yard so Gryphon can watch, and join in if he feels up to it? I don't feel Gryphon would pose a risk to a child, but I guess with a dog that's afraid you can't be quite sure.

Great idea on sitting in on the class, I just called them and they're actually quite fine with me doing that. 

Thanks again.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am not sure where you live (13% tax?!), but the Zoom Room has shy dog classes to teach techniques for him. It sounds like you are doing everything right. He does sound more fearful than most, but he is also right in the middle of a fear stage. Did you meet his parents? How were they?

You had a terrier before and now you have a standard poodle. Standard poodles can be more wary of new things than many dogs and socializing them young and well (like you are doing) is so important. Often this wariness is because they are really smart. Everything registers with them. My boxers would see something new and it didn't mean a thing. They'd go about their business 'doidy, doidy, doidy". My poodles see something new and they are going, "What's that? Can it hurt me? How does it move? Listen to the noise it makes. Let me watch it and see what it does. Okay, that's interesting. Hmmm." 

Poodles do not blindly do whatever their owner wants like, say, a labrador retreiver. I remember doing a puppy agility class with Bonnie and asking her to get on the table. She had to go around the entire table checking underneath it to make sure there were no goblins under it. Once she realized it was fine, she hopped on with no trouble. They think for themselves. It is very important for standards to become comfortable with things on their own terms and never be forced. If forced some become overly fearful as adults. 

Also, standard poodles (and minis and toys to a lesser degree) are people dogs, not dog dogs. That why people say they are a person in a fur coat. In puppy class my standard watches the boxers, labs and goldens running around growling, playing and jumping on each other. He was more interested in the toys and throwing them around and squeeking them. He is not fearful, just not interested. Almost like he is too sophisticated for all that slobbery nonsense. 

Also, standard poodles are a protective breed. I like that about them. They don't immediately love every single human being who walks in the door. Those people have to prove they are worthy. They aren't like a lab who greets every human with a robust wagging tail and love.

You are doing everything right. He does sound shyer than most, but I bet you $100 bucks he will learn things in obedience and other classes after one try when the other dogs are having trouble focussing on their humans. This morning in puppy kindergarten with my Jazz (he is 14 weeks old) we did an exercise called "watch" where the instructor wanted them to look in our eyes to focus. None of the other puppies could do it for more than a second or two. Jazz burned holes in my eyes for so long the instructor wanted to time him. We did it again and he stared into my eyes for almost a minute before he broke, which she said is twice as long as required for the advanced dog class. 

I guess my point is that you have a standard poodle.  He is not a terrier. There are different concerns with them. He may not be friendly with every living soul. He might be wary of new things until he is a well socialized adult. He will excel in obedience and training classes. And he will wind himself around your heart pretty quickly. Keep at it! You'll see.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

Thank you for your encouragement! 

Yes I actually find my terriers "oh hey I don't know you, come into my house, can I get you a drink, can I show you our stash of valuables?" attitude slightly annoying, but he really is just a goofball. 

Gryphon was really well thought out I think, about two years in planning of choosing breeds and experiencing them, but we humans think mostly in analogy and I guess since I am not used to poodles yet, his reserve has made me nervous that I am ruining him. And you are right, they are so smart. He learned sit and stay the day I brought him home, and he also learned elevators, to sit when I stop walking etc. I am really truly pleased with him. 

His parents were alert, the mom didn't care to meet me really, but the father actually came and sat on my lap (oomph! 70lbs!) when I sat on the floor to meet the puppies. 

Ontario has the lovely 13% sales tax... 

Thanks again!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds as if you are well on the way to helping him through this stage. I would be a little careful about long walks, though - formal walks can be tough on growing joints. The usual advice is 5 minutes per month of age, twice a day, which would be two 15 minute walks - plus lots of off leash play, of course.

If you know any nice, dog savvy children I would certainly invite them over in ones and twos. Make sure he has already had a walk and a play so that he is not quite so bouncy, and (of course!) supervise them all carefully - I'm sure they will all be best friends in no time.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I was just thinking about fearfulness in general, because my two standard poodles used to be scared spitless of the clippers, but I spent a few minutes every night when they were in their deep puppy sleepiness period to pass the clippers over their faces and bodies. First the clippers were turned off, and then turned on but not clipping them. It took a few months but with lots of treats and no sympathy (I agree, sympathizing makes them think there really IS something to worry about!) they totally got over it. Now they are so deeply relaxed when I'm grooming them, I have to rouse them to move over so I can do another area, ha,ha. My two were also very afraid of big dogs when they were little, but they got over that too. Not that I'm a trainer, but I'll bet with your balanced approach and perserverance, it will all work out for you


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

outwest said:


> ...
> 
> You had a terrier before and now you have a standard poodle. Standard poodles can be more wary of new things than many dogs and socializing them young and well (like you are doing) is so important. Often this wariness is because they are really smart. Everything registers with them. My boxers would see something new and it didn't mean a thing. They'd go about their business 'doidy, doidy, doidy". My poodles see something new and they are going, "What's that? Can it hurt me? How does it move? Listen to the noise it makes. Let me watch it and see what it does. Okay, that's interesting. Hmmm."
> .....
> ...


 I wanted to comment on just a few parts of ow's (very nice.  ) post. I totally agree that poodle's tendency to be wary is due to their intelligence. Trevvor is almost two, so he is over the stage of being fearful of things, but nothing escapes his notice. Even if he is still, his eyes are constantly moving, taking everything in, analyzing and thinking about it. Even if he is napping, he is on alert...any movement or noise he doesn't recognize is immediately checked out. Raven is still young and not quite as watchful, but I think part of that is the fact that his BFF is constantly watching out for him.  He is also very confident, he has little fear, especially now that he just came out of a fear stage. 

I must disagree that tpoos and mpoos aren't people dogs as much...my guys would much rather play with me, each other, and their toys then other dogs. Trev isn't too keen on playing with people other than his family either....he will politely allow people to pet him, but I can tell he isn't really "into" it. Raven is still a puppy so I can't say how he will be as an adult but as of now, he is definitely not as "into" people he doesn't know either. He will run up and greet them, but doesn't stay to really play or be petted a lot. He loves my family and coworkers (pretty sure he thinks they are family since he is around them almost every day!) though, he is less of a "one master" type dog than Trev. 

All that to say MaryLynn, your puppy sounds fairly normal with maybe a extra touch of shyness and I think you are doing the right things to help him. Keep up the good work! You will see a marked difference I'm sure once he gets a little older. One thing I wanted to add, if it's possible, go up to the frightening object yourself. Touch it, talk to it, play with it. That has helped Raven get over the (few) scary things he has encountered. Sometimes also just ignoring the thing and continuing on helps. It kinda depends on the situation. For example, Raven was frightened by some big Tonka trucks in the yard one day. I went up to them, talked to and played with them, and after a minute or so he realized they weren't scary. A week or so later, there was a case of some sort lying in the middle of the living room....that startled him as well since it was out of the ordinary. Since it was in our living room, I simply walked past and ignored it. After a few seconds of sniffing and "woofing", Raven also realized it wasn't scary. 

Keep up the good work!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Leroy is a standard poodle and he hasn't met anyone he doesn't like. He's goofy because he will hear something outside, have a low bark like he would try something, but then if people come in, he's so excited and ready and willing to show them around the house. He is super friendly and loves people, and will practically follow people into their homes. He thinks he's a lapdog and will lean into your lap. He's made guests spill drinks because he keeps smothering people. He is an odd poodle because he loves attention from anyone. I had exchange students stay with me for two weeks, and every time he saw them, he acted as if it was the first time seeing them.

However, my small dog Louis has the opposite personality. He is a Havanese and they are supposed to be happy-go-lucky friendly dogs who loves people and children but it is not the case with him. He is wary and will bark/growl if he is unsure. It takes him a while to warm up to new things and people. I've also had success in ignoring things and continue walking as if the scary thing isn't there, or walking up to it and touching it and letting them sniff. Maybe it will help if you have a bicycle where you can click and treat when Gryphon goes near the bicycle, sniffs it, walks around, ignores it... basically any behavior with the bike that is positive. Then move the bike a little, first turning the handles so the front wheels turns left and right, click and treat any positive behavior towards that, then wheeling the bike around (maybe have your husband help with this). Have him walk next to the bike as you wheel it forward, have someone ride it around Gryphon, then maybe have someone ride the bike (not fast, just a very short distance) while walking Gryphon next to the bike at the same time. Just to show that the bike is nothing to be scared of. You would be surprised how boring things like watermelons and pumpkins freak out animals. When I bring in stuff like this and put it on the floor, both of my cats have wide eyes, they slink around the melon... sniff from a distance, then they keep bobbing their head forward little by little sniffing until they can sniff with their nose close to it. Leroy was confused the first time he saw a pumpkin too. He saw a wheelbarrow and got scared; I walked up to it and touched it. He didn't like the wheelbarrow but he didn't bark or growl at it after that. He also got scared by a flag in someone's lawn. I went there and hit the flag to show it was nothing. Oh, and the cats also noticed when he put something in the toaster oven. It was bread still in the wrapper that I placed in there to keep our friend's dog from eating it. They noticed bread out of the package vs. bread in the package.... bread in the package in the toaster oven was something "wrong" to them lol. They did the whole sniffing from a distance thing, while staring intently and slowly creeping up to the toaster oven.

SO, my point is, animals notice little things more than you think. Just be calm and show strong guidance. It has also help Louis to overcome some of his shyness by having very friendly dogs around. I ask people to ignore Louis, and only pay attention to the friendly, pushy dogs. Louis starts competing for attention too. He jumps up for attention, but sometimes he backs away when people are too forward with petting. He likes to play hard to get! I am confident that you will help him overcome fears over objects and moving things. It's harder to help shy dogs love people, because often people are the ones who need training on how to approach a shy dog. Good luck!


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

Just thought I would update incase anyone else follows this thread looking for their own help.

What I outlined I was doing and the suggestions I took worked. He is doing MUCH better, and children are no longer a problem nor are bikes!

Thanks again.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

See.  I am so happy for you and he is a lucky guy to have you. You handled his shyness well. He may have one more overly shy period, but you're on the home stretch.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Outwest, I agree with most of what you have said, except the (minis and toys to a lesser degree) part. I think a well-bred poodle -- whether toy, mini or standard, are poodles in the end and I honestly see no difference in a miniature and a standard in temperment, only in size. I do think that you see many less well bred toys and minis, generally, at least in the midwest, which may lead to your opinion -- but I just wanted to clarify since your posts always seem to somehow diminish the miniature and toy poodles when compared to a standard. I get it -- but I disagree. Just felt strongly about that since someone who may not know the difference may start to distinguish the sizes by temperment, and although sometimes it is true, is is more the dog, not the size. Oh, and I have had miniature poodles for 30 years.


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

I agree wil liljaker completely. I grew up with a miniature poodle and have had Finnegan for 3 wonderful years now. Both of these dogs were/are well trained and had the most wonderful temperment. I have not seen a difference in temperment between the sizes of poodles when they have been well bred and equally trained and socialized. That, I believe is the key.

MaryLynn - your Gryphon is a real cutie and it dounds like you are doing everything right with him! Where in Ontario are you located?


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