# Would like honest input on breeding



## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

First let me say that before I got my dog I had no clue how much went into responsible breeding. I didn't know that is was so important to have health testing, or that you should look for a dog that has proven itself in some way. I figured that if both parents were AKC registered that was enough. The breeder I got my spoo from sold her with full AKC registration and a health guarantee(even though parents were not tested). 

So here is my question. Please do not berate me for asking this as I know breeding is a touchy subject here. My poodle did not come from health tested parents, however I got very lucky. She has a wonderful temperament, is a very fast learner, and extremely healthy. She is a medium-dark red and has not faded. I have had other poodle people tell me that she has great conformation, however how do I know if they are right(I do not an eye for conformation, and while I have poured over diagrams and pictures I just do not know for sure. What I do know is that I cannot find major faults such a roach back) So *IF* my girl passes all the recommended health testing for the breed, and proves herself in obedience(and possibly show...that is another question, if she has good conformation and if I am able to have that confirmed by a *reputable* breeder(not just a poodle person) would she need to be shown for conformation...the reason I ask is that I am much more interested in doing obedience than showing simply because of the show clips. If only she could be shown in a retriever clip.) would it be a problem to breed her. If she passes her health testing and proves herself, but the parents did not have any testing, would that be irresponsible breeding? I feel that my girl has a lot to offer, but refuse to put any puppies at risk. 

Let me also say I value any and all opinions. The reason I am asking this now is because I am at the point where I need to make a decision. If I decide to possibly breed her one day, I will do preliminary OFA screening and if she passes I will wait until 24 months to do another screening. If she doesn't pass, I will have her spayed.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Why exactly do you want to breed if I may ask? Just because she hasn't faded in color? (I'm just curious as to why you feel she needs to be bred?)

Dogs do fine if they are spayed later in life, so I guess what I'm curious about is why this decision has to be made so quickly? Why not health test her first, do confirmation and obedience and see how she does first before you decide on whether she'll be a good candidate for breeding or not.

I don't think color should be the only thing a dog has to offer when it comes to breeding practices.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

My reason for wanting to breed has absolutely nothing to do with color. Although I prefer red. The reason I mentioned the red part was because I know many red poodle puppies fade and mine has not. There are many reasons I would like to breed but mainly because I have a passion for spoos and I would like to help educate others and provide healthy puppies that take away business from puppy mills and backyard breeders. My dog has a strong working drive and I have been able to teach her many tasks that you would teach a service dog. I would like to provide puppies for pets as well as donate puppies for service. 

I plan on doing obedience regardless of whether or not I breed her. My question is whether or not it would be irresponsible to breed her because NO dog in her pedigree has been health tested regardless of how well she does in obedience and confirmation. If I do all of the work which I am more than will to do, I would hate to get to the point of breeding where she does well in everything only to find out it would be wrong to breed her because of her pedigree since that is a question I can have answered now rather than later.


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

Do you have any pictures of her? Is her pedigree online? Are there champions listed on it? Do you know her coi?


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

No she does not have any champions in her pedigree and she has not been health tested. That is why I am asking this question!  

Let me ask again. She has not been health tested. No one in her pedigree has been health tested or proven. Would it be irresponsible to breed her if she is able to prove herself and if she passes all health testing common for poodles since she does not have that in her pedigree. Please tell me if I am not making sense. 

If she cannot prove herself or pass all testing I would not breed her. 

I would like this to be clear. If she passes all health testing, has a low COI, and proves herself and it would STILL be considered irresponsible to breed her as her parents have not done these things, I will not be breeding her. 

I refuse to be an irresponsible breeder and that is why I am asking this question.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think one of the problems of breeding a dog when there is little history is that, while genetic testing can pick up on some of inherited problems, there are many others that can't be tested for. You can make a start by looking up her parents and siblings on the poodle databases, but I would suggest you look for a knowledgeable mentor - someone who can discuss her pedigree with you, and give an honest analysis of her physical strength and weaknesses, and who would also be prepared to guide you through breeding . There is no reason to rush to spay her, so you have time to find the right person.

Be aware that breeding is not for the faint hearted. There is a definite risk to your dog; you need to be able to afford both time (24 hour care for several weeks) and possible financial loss (emergency caesarian and no surviving puppies), and to consider what you would do should you be unable to sell all the pups to really good homes (compromise? keep them?), and how you woud cope if, in a year or two's time, one or more are in rescue, complete with all the problems that come from insufficient socialising and training. It is important to consider the worst case scenario, as well as the best!


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I do not think that the fact that she has no champions in her background should disqualify her. If you have a dog with good structure, good health and a good temperament, I think it is reasonable to consider breeding her.

If I were you, I would be looking at the following:

COI: If your poodle is listed in poodlepedigree.com, you can check the COI very easily. If your poodle is not listed there, you can add her yourself an in a couple of weeks the site will calculate the COI.

Pedigree: Check to see if there are any breedings of close relatives in the pedigree (e.g., a daughter bred to her father or grandfather). (This relates to COI.) To the extent that you can, research the health of the dogs in the pedigree. Can you speak to the owner or breeder of the parents or grandparents? Any incidence of bloat, epilepsy, Addisons or subaceous adenitis? You should also look up dogs on phrdatabase.com. However, if your girl does not have champions in her line, it is likely that health reporting to PHR is not the greatest (actually, it is not the greatest even when you do have champion lines). There is one line of reds that I have heard have a lot of health problems. If I were you, I would have an experienced breeder of reds like Arreau take a look at the pedigree and see if she sees any red flags. Obviously, you would not want to breed a dog that came from lines with health problems that are are worse than other lines. (No lines are completely free of health problems.)

Placing the puppies: One of the worst things that you can do is have a litter and then not be able to find homes for all of them. So it helps to have a good feel for the market for puppies in your area and how you will find homes for them. A mentor who has done this before can be a huge help.

Genetic diversity: One problem with breeding only dogs from champion lines is that they are often related to each other. It is good for the poodle breed in the long run to keep a broad gene pool. If your dog comes from untested, unproven lines, it is possible that she has some genetic diversity. Assuming that the dog has good structure and a good temperament, it might be very good to keep those genes in the gene pool.

Health testing: I would do the DNA tests sooner rather than later (von Willebrand's and neonatal encephalitis), especially since the parents have not been tested. These tests can be done on a dog of any age.

Good luck to you! Let us know what you decide.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

FJM, thank you for bringing up some good points. I will be a stay at home mom by the time I would breed and have the time to be there 24/7. I also understand the risks which is why I would make sure that I could try and lesson the risk by knowing about her health. I wouldn't breed unless I had interested buyers. As far as the breeder I got her from I might not get a warm reception because I had a huge red flag when she informed me last week that the same mom had another litter ready to go(I was definitely lied to...I still have the emails that say she only breeds her dogs every other year so unless this was a mistake where her dogs were in the wrong place at the wrong time...which she didn't say). I will defiantly not be referring her to anyone. I have even thought about asking her to have her parents health tested and I would offer to pay, however I worry that will just help her sell her puppies and I do not agree with breeding a dog twice in one year. Her dogs are very well kept and live in the house and honestly have good lives and are spoiled so I am at least happy for that.

I do know this though...I would like a mentor. Also, if I end up spaying her I have lucked out with the best pet.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

peppersb... THANK YOU for your input. You have some great points. It is really nice to hear from other experienced poodle people about what to look for. I have researched breeding online and sometimes it is hard to find exactly what you should be doing and looking for because there is SO much information out there. 

I will add her to poodlepedigree and check out phrdatabase as well. Thank you for those sites. I will also check into the genetic testing. I am not making any yes or no decisions about breeding her yet because there is still SO much to do. I just wanted opinions on here and everyone on this site is usually very helpful when it comes to the best interest of poodles...which is what I want for my girl and any of her puppies if I decide to breed her.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> COI: If your poodle is listed in poodlepedigree.com, you can check the COI very easily. If your poodle is not listed there, you can add her yourself an in a couple of weeks the site will calculate the COI.


Use Poodle Health Registry, though, because Poodlepedigree underestimates the COI. It's easy to quote an inaccurately low COI when basing it on poodlepedigree. (one of my big pet peeves that I see some breeders doing.)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Without getting into the trials of breeding and selling puppies, it is not irresponsible to want to breed if there is no health testing behind your girl IF you were to fully test her and IF you chose a male who was fully tested. Truth be told, a lot of people who breed reds were in the exact same boat you are in. Most reds come from untested or minimally tested backgrounds. We all have to start somewhere, and testing your female would be a big step in heading in the right direction. If you plan to breed her to red, you will encounter a lot with the same story- 1st generation of testing. So my advice would be to try to find a boy with some testing behind him. My matriarch has very minimal testing behind her, but when we test her Grand daughter, we will at that point have three generations of thorough health tesing on our dogs.

You will have to be careful who you breed to if a low COI is important to you, because there are two males who come up in nearly every red pedigree. The only thing you can do is try to find a boy with one or both as far back in the pedigree as possible, and do a test breeding on poodlepedigree to see what the COI would be on pups resulting form such a union.

There is a lot more to breeding than testing and COI, but these are not questions you inquired about.


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

What about the biting behavior problems you were having with her as a puppy? Are you sure this is something you want to pass on potentially? If you're really interested in getting into breeding, I would get a dog with those intentions, so that the parents have a history of health, and it's not just a gamble.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

As far as the biting goes. That is really nothing I am worried about. It was simply puppy play and I was an overconcerned owner and she has completely grown out of it. She just has a high prey drive which has actually turned into a really great thing as far as her training goes. This dog lets the kids I babysit love all over her with no problems. Anyway I may possibly get a poodle with the intention of breeding, but if this girl passes all of the requirements I have then I don't know why I would need to rule her out. I haven't made any decisions yet except that I am going to wait to spay her and see how she does. Thanks for your concern though


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Use Poodle Health Registry, though, because Poodlepedigree underestimates the COI. It's easy to quote an inaccurately low COI when basing it on poodlepedigree. (one of my big pet peeves that I see some breeders doing.)


CM: Interesting point. Can you explain the difference between the poodlepedigree calculations and the PHR calculations? I know that they come up with different numbers, but I've never understood why. Do you know what the mathematical formula is? Or do you know of any analysis that shows definitively that one PHR is "correct" while poodlepedigree is not?


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

UKC breed ring titles don't seem to be considered to be not as prestigious as an AKC or CKC title but showing in the UKC breed ring in the Sporting Clip would give you invaluable hands on experience in conformation. Not saying you have to but it is something to think about.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

peppersb said:


> CM: Interesting point. Can you explain the difference between the poodlepedigree calculations and the PHR calculations? I know that they come up with different numbers, but I've never understood why. Do you know what the mathematical formula is? Or do you know of any analysis that shows definitively that one PHR is "correct" while poodlepedigree is not?


Here is some information on how a COI is calculated.

http://www.genetic-genealogy.co.uk/Toc115570144.html

One of the reasons why PHR has a more accurate COI is because it has more complete and accurate information than poodlepedigree. On PHR, all pedigree information is double checked with the stud books of the country or directly with the AKC. With poodlepedigree, anybody can enter information: accurate or
not. Also, the Poodle Health Registry uses the Standard Poodle Database (available for purchase from PCA) to calculate COI. Poodlepedigree is a useful database, but for an accurate COI, PHR is a better tool. I always go by the PHR values for my dogs, even though it is higher.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Standard Poodle Database that can be purchased at PCA: Standard Poodle Database


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

I don't know much about breeding, except that I researched quite a bit to find a reputable breeder before I got my Callie, and have been so happy I did. Cameo Poodles breeds reds and apricots, and Pat's dogs are health tested. Since she shows some of her dogs, she knows what to look for. I would suggest you might want to talk to her and get her opinion as to whether yours is show quality. She's a very nice person with years of experience. Also, if you breed, you should get your dog health tested. If I were to look for another puppy, I would want to see both parents health papers.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

I don't know anything about breeding, either, except for what I've learned from my breeder of Storm and reading on this forum....

I think if your dog has outstanding qualities and passes all health tests - you find a suitable male with same qualities and tests - you might want to think about it...

Your bitch is still a puppy, isn't she? How old is she?

You mentioned that her coat hasn't faded - at what age does that normally happen?

I have a male puppy from health tested, champion parents and grand parents etc, (he's also on full papers) who has the best temperament and conformation.... He'll be neutered in the next couple of months...

I do regard Storm as 'outstanding', but so are the rest of my breeders poodles... and she's better equipped to pick the ones that should be bred... since she's been breeding poodles for over 30 years.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

What do you consider "passing" all the requirements? It sounds like you will have her hips checked, but what other testing are you considering, and what do you consider passing?

I don't think having champions in a pedigree or necessary, or even confirmation showing. I would like to see some impartial reason as to why she should would be considered a sound breeding bitch and a benefit to the breed - but I don't see that there is any reason those can't be thing you enjoy doing like hunting, obedience, agility, etc.

Has she gone through her first heat? Because I can say as someone that has never had an intact female before, our girls first heat was enough to turn me off to any potential breeding, ever. It was messy, smell, and severely impacted our social life (ie no walks, parks, lunches on public patios, etc), and did I mention she reeked!


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

brownlikewoah said:


> What about the biting behavior problems you were having with her as a puppy? Are you sure this is something you want to pass on potentially? If you're really interested in getting into breeding, I would get a dog with those intentions, so that the parents have a history of health, and it's not just a gamble.


This happened just 3 months ago...


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

Lene...I'm not sure what my puppies biting behavior being three months ago has anything to do with breeding. She is almost eight months and I am making the decision of whether or not to spay her. The biting turned out to be very normal puppy behavior that has gone away completely. Most puppies have a behavior problem...If a dog jumped up constantly you wouldn't necessarily rule them out as a good dog to breed...as no puppy is born with perfect behavior and we have to train them. 

The question with the color is a good point. From reading this forum alone I have read that it can take anywhere from 1-2 years and that most coats fade somewhat. Her adult coat is coming in right now and it is still just as dark as the day we got her. She could still fade, i'm not ruling it out, but color doesn't necessarily mean she would be bad to breed because that is definitely just one of many factors

I would do OFA elbows, hips(maybe penn hips as well..I have read a lot of debate on which is better and I am undecided on that), eyes, COI, as well as all of the testing you do to make sure that breeding them is safe(testing both on her and the male)...my dog would have to perform extremely well before I would breed her. I am honestly starting out and came here to see if I would decide whether or not to spay her now or wait. 

In all honestly I realize that she could perform poorly in these tests and I would be out of some money. However anyone I have met that is a good breeder usually just breaks even on a litter, especially at first. If she tests poorly and I would have to spay her at least I would know (for example, if she had bad hips) and could take precautionary measures to slow anything that might make her uncomfortable in the future.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

It's been interesting over the years I've been on PF to watch people deliberate whether or not to get into breeding. For some it's a dream long in coming, something they've thought about and researched and worked toward for years. Others seem to (understandably!) be so smitten with their own poodle the notion of breeding seems to "organically" spring to mind. Like anything else, when it comes to breeding poodles, there's a "first time" for anyone who gets involved. As with any significant undertaking, IMHO, the more forethought, preparation and willingness to listen and learn from others, the better! I am ever grateful there are thoughtful, competent, dedicated people willing to carefully breed poodles for us to enjoy. I always hope those beginning the journey are as ready, committed and supported as possible. I have come to admire those who are truly dedicated to advancing this noble breed. I think it's really wonderful how everyone is contributing their opinions and thoughts to this thread, as asked. That kind of willing support is priceless, and something I adore about poodle people.:adore:

I don't know if you're in the states or not, milliesmom, but if you are, you might want to get in touch with the good folks at Apricot Red Poodle Club Apricot Red Poodle Club - Red Apricot Poodle Club as a possible resource. I have nothing beyond that to offer, other than good wishes to anyone and everyone who carefully breeds and nurtures poodles for us to cherish. Hats off to them! (Oh, there is one thing....I often wonder what plans breeders are able to put in place to provide for their poodles/breeding program should they be unable to? This is fresh on my mind, having recently convinced a friend who is updating her Will to provide for her dogs. Something she simply hadn't considered! Sorry to go off topic a bit.) :focus:


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Your poodle sounds lovely. Are you considering training her as a service dog for yourself? I have a Spoo that I have trained to be a SD (service dog) for me. Just let me tell you what I looked for when I was looking for a puppy that would be suitable. Probably only about 50% of dogs that are trained to be a Lots of training goes into training a service dog, so I wanted a dog that would live as long as possible and be as healthy as possible. I looked for lineage with health testing back 3 generations on the part of both father and mother; for lineage with other SD's or at least therapy dogs; I wanted to meet the grandparents, and the parents, at least the mother; I wanted no agressive behavior in the lineage; I wanted to know the diet of at least two generations of dogs; visited the breeder to see how the dogs there were treated and how they had been trained. I had the Volhard temperament test done by someone other that the breeder. I learned to do Volhard temperament testing on puppies myself and used it on every puppy I considered. I have forgotten some of the other things!

Of course there are many that don't do all this so you may be able to sell your puppies to those less educated. I would say that if you train your own dog as an SD she is successful as one that would be the time to consider breeding her. I think it is at 2 that she could have her hips done, and the other health tests. It might have swayed me to overlook some of the other things. I hope this helps in your decision.

Susan


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

I know nothing about breeding, so I can't give you any advice, but I do have some questions.

First, she is only 8 months and as a groomer, I see most fading dogs of all breeds begin fading anywhere between 1 and 2 years old. Infact, I have seen many late faders. 

But, knowing that really isn't important to you, I want to focus a bit more on your dilemma.

I have never been interested in showing or breeding, but my breeder influenced me to show our standard. The reason, really was because when he chose his show prospect puppy my girl came in close second when Pat Hastings evaluated them and he had to decide which puppy to choose. He encouraged me to think about it and I decided why not because she is gorgeous and Im up for the challenge. I've learned so much from this experience and I have great mentors helping me every step of the way. One of the subjects he and I discussed was if she finishes her championship, would I then consider breeding her. If I did, again, I would have my great and very experienced mentors guiding me through the process the entire way, but for now breeding is not something we are worrying about. We will cross that bridge when we get to it. I most likely will only agree to breeding her if I decide to continue showing poodles. 
I think you should decide first if you will show her and get into that and see if its something you and her enjoy before even consider breeding her. 

It's ok to spay her later, infact, even though its a controversial subject, but generally what I've been told is that they should go through their first heat cycle before spaying anyways. 

I've never had an unspayed dog before and so I'm really dreading my girls first heat.. Lol she is a white standard and we have white carpet. Ugh. 

I think you have good intentions and I can see that you want to do it right, but I think you should definitely find a really reputable breeder and befriend them and learn everything you can from someone who knows what they are doing.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Millie's mom, it seems to me that you are asking questions and want to do the right thing. Goodness knows there are tons of other people who don't give a whit and do it all the time. If your girl is smart and good in athletic events and obedience, that is terrific and to me it is worthwhile. She could add a lot of genetic diversity depending on what is behind her. 

A puppy play biting is a very common issue with all puppies. You train them not to do it. They don't know that a human is not another puppy and humans have very tender skin. Now, if she was snarling, snapping, and truly biting that is entirely different. But, puppy play biting is not something I would consider bad temperament! 

Put her on poodle pedigree and poodle health database both. Have her hips xrayed to start with. No reason to consider breeding if her hips aren't good. You can show her in UKC in a sporting clip. It isn't AKC, but it can help you get a better idea of her conformation. 

You can post pictures and people here can look at her, but beware- some people are not kind. They may nitpick.  It would be better to show her to a poodle breeder who shows AKC and get an honest opinion. No poodles are perfect and yours will have something that is not perfect, especially being a red. Reds can have lower tail sets, for example. Some red lines have also had health issues, so it would be important to look on poodle health registry at her ancestors. Most dogs do not start fading until over a year old and almost all reds do fade, so you should expect her to. If she doesn't, that would really be special in a red!

Good luck with your decision.

PS If you just want to add your girl to the poodle health registry website go here (you might have to register-free- and then click this link):
http://www.phrdatabase.org/pp_AddDog.htm

To enter health information is a different link. I know I got confused when I tried to do it. I just added my puppy.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> You can post pictures and people here can look at her, but beware- some people are not kind. They may nitpick.


I really think it's less that people aren't kind and more that - when posting photos and asking for a conformation assessment - it's assumed that the individual can handle an objective assessment of the pros and cons. 

That said, it's not always easy to hear the faults of your dog. Especially when you are new and if you are not used to those types of judgements/conversations. Sometimes you think you can handle it at first... (But, I am always all: hit me with the truth! tell me the bad! i promise not to be offended! with my dogs.) I do believe a tough skin and an ability to hear it really is important in breeding. Otherwise kennel blindness is the result. But I do recognize that it can be harder to hear for some and that is understandable. This is true for those new to breeding and even some whom have been at it for a long time.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

You've gotten excellent advice here, milliesmom. First off, I'm not sure why puppy play biting would be a reason not to breed a dog, so please don't worry about that. . Next, if you are going to consider breeding your bitch, you need to determine what she will contribute to the breed. It's okay to hold off on spaying her for a while while you determine if she is of that quality. The alternative is that you can acquire another poodle with the purpose of showing/breeding. This is how I started out - with a pet, whom as much as I love, isn't show/breeding quality, so I added another quality standard with the purpose of showing and breeding.

Good luck!  Breeding and showing isn't for the faint of heart. Only recently have I become involved in it. Don't rush into things, learn as much as you can about your bitch's pedigree, her line, her health, structure, conformation, etc.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think it great that you are researching now. It is hard when the testing is all done to then look for a stud. Studs need as much evaluation to compliment your bitch. A good mentor can pick out the flaws & the good points so when looking for a stud that stud will hopefully strengthen the weak points & vice versa. 

That being said I also personally want a smart, willing dog then just a "pretty" dog. So, I am more of the working attitude & value that much higher than the conformation title. I am hoping that all 3 of my Poodles will be in Rally O this year. Right now I have 1 in the UKC conformation ring. We are working on our Grand CH. title. My other 2 are my Grooming Competition dogs. So hopefully by fall I will really work on the RO titles. I would buy a poodle from working titles(agility,hunting, obedience, rally, therapy. etc..). Conformation titles would be 2nd. 
So go for the obedience & agility titles. Look for a stud, work on your health tests (which your genetic tests can be done now)& see how she matures.

My own T. Poodle is 8 months & I am already looking for potential studs. She already is PRA/PRcd clear by parentage & when 1 year patellas will be done. Ironically I found a stud I really liked & when researching his pedigree found out he is the full brother to my bitches sire. Oh, well but at least I know what I like.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, 3 dogs. I think health, intelligence, athleticism and working ability should be right up there with conformation. But, I do think a good looking dog is a good looking dog. It is easy to be blinded by beauty for many.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

3dogs said:


> I think it great that you are researching now. It is hard when the testing is all done to then look for a stud. Studs need as much evaluation to compliment your bitch. A good mentor can pick out the flaws & the good points so when looking for a stud that stud will hopefully strengthen the weak points & vice versa.
> 
> My own T. Poodle is 8 months & I am already looking for potential studs. She already is PRA/PRcd clear by parentage & when 1 year patellas will be done. Ironically I found a stud I really liked & when researching his pedigree found out he is the full brother to my bitches sire. Oh, well but at least I know what I like.


I have an awesome male, with all the right history, health, etc, from excellent lineage. I would have been willing to use him as a stud, but no female that I found had similar qualifications, so I chose to have him spayed. I did not want to contribute to an inferior line. So you do want to consider that aspect also. Will you settle for a stud with inferior lineage, or none? And if you do who will purchase your puppies? Just more things to think about. 

I think it is commendable that you are putting so much thought into this. Thank you for doing so.


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## Agidog (Jun 4, 2012)

without going back over all the pages of input just want to ask a hyperthetical ?

If you have a silver bitch out of a strong silver Sire lines going way back, and Dam was white with some silver/blue and white lines, and you want to preserve the silver lines what would be the best dog to look for to sire a litter?
a blue with strong silver/blue/white background?
a white with silver/blue/black & silver background?
Of course I would also be looking at all the other important aspects like conformation, clear genetic testing temperament etc. 
silver is such a minefield when it comes to breeding as anything can and will show up like in my girls litter there were white, 2 blues, and 2 silver pups.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Adidog,

If you have a Silver, breed to a Silver with good conformation, temperment and testing. They exist! Since you are in Australia, I know there are some fine Silver breeders there. Test your girl and get her out there. Breeders will look at a nice girl who has owners that are working hard to improve the breed. What are you trying to accomplish?

Do you have to choose between the two dogs as they are the 2 possibilities you narrowed down to? You need to look at health testing, longeivity, and how the Stud would compliment your girl. If he has fathered pups, you need to analize what he brought to the breeding. What does your girl bring, what are her strengths and weaknesses. What is her line known to throw? Is her type dominant in a breeding? How about the boy? In the backround, see if the parents and ancestors were good clear Silvers, and not mottled with patterns, it happens.

My first priority would be healthy well adjusted pups, with good conformation, able to function with ease of motion. Most of our babies go to pet homes. People like all colours. If you plan on moving on with one of the pups, pick the best conformation in the colour of your preference. Pup should be confident, and well mannered.

Paragon


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Agidog said:


> without going back over all the pages of input just want to ask a hyperthetical ?
> 
> If you have a silver bitch out of a strong silver Sire lines going way back, and Dam was white with some silver/blue and white lines, and you want to preserve the silver lines what would be the best dog to look for to sire a litter?
> a blue with strong silver/blue/white background?
> ...


Interesting question. The best person to answer is Zyrcona, but I don't see her posting much any more so I'll take a stab at it.

I'll divide your question into two questions: (1) Will all the puppies in the litter be born black (i.e., no white, cream, etc.)? (2) Will the ones that are born black fade to silver?

I am assuming that all of the dogs that you mention are BB, meaning that they don't carry the brown gene. But if you want to be sure of that, you could have them tested. See the following page for a desciption of BBEE, BBEe, etc. VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia

(1) Will all the puppies in the litter be born black (i.e., no white, cream, etc.)? 

You silver bitch has a white dam. White/cream/apricot is recessive, so the dam is BBee (the 2 small e's are necessary to produce anything on the white, cream, apricot, red spectrum). Since the dam only had e's to pass on (no E's), and since your bitch is in the black, blue, silver spectrum (has to have at least one E), you can be sure that your bitch is BBEe. That means that she could pass on an E or an e to her offspring. 

So what will the stud dog contribute? E or e?

A white stud dog will surely contribute an e. With this stud, you should expect that half of the puppies will be BBee (in the white, cream range--probably white since you have whites in the pedigree), and half will be BBEe (born black, carrying the cream gene).

The blue with strong silver/blue/white background could be BBEE (contributing an E to the pups) or BBEe (could contribute either E or e). You could have the dog tested if you want to know. If he is BBEE, all of the pups that he produces with your bitch will be born black. If he is BBEe, the statistical probability is that 75% will be born black (that's 25% dominant black plus 50% black carrying white/cream gene, with the remaining 25% white/cream).

(2) Will the ones that are born black fade to silver?

The fading gene that affects puppies that are born black has not been identified. There is no DNA test for it. The way people think that it works is that pups get a fading gene or a non-fading gene from each parent. If they get two fading genes (e.g., when both parents are silver) they will be silver. If they get one fading gene and one non-fading gene (e.g., from a black parent and a silver parent), they will be blue. A blue dog can give a fading gene or a non-fading gene, so a blue to silver breeding will produce some silvers (a fading gene from both parents) and some blues (a fading gene from the silver parent and a non-fading gene from the blue parent). Dogs that are white have this fading-gene genetics going on in the background, but it is masked by the fact that they are ee. The fading gene that affects dogs that are born black had nothing to do with the fading that you may see in a dog that is born apricot and fades to cream. So it is hard to tell what genetics your white stud is going to pass on with regard to the fading of pups that are born black. If he has had other pups, this might give some clues. The fact that there is a lot of silver in his background would suggest that he carries some fading genes. So I think it is likely that some if not all of the black pups from this mating would fade to silver.

Your blue stud could contribute a fading gene or a non-fading gene. Since your bitch will be contributing a fading gene, you could expect that puppies that are born black from this mating would end up being a mixture of silver and blue.

Hope this helps.


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## fairhavenmagick (Jan 19, 2011)

This has been such a good thread. And this silver information just listed is super helpful for me personally (thanks!)

I also recommend get your girl out in the UKC conformation ring. It's a super friendly enviroment, you can show in a retriever clip, and you will learn so much! I had never done conformation before and I showed my girl in UKC. Much for the same reasons- I couldn't do the AKC show hair while accomplishing our larger goals. But it was still really important to me to have some outside evaluation of her conformation. I highly recommend it.


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## milliesmom (Dec 15, 2012)

Hey everyone. I know it has been awhile but some of you wanted updates. I found a gentlemen in my area who showed standards for a long time and used to breed them years ago and I got into contact with him for some honest input on my spoo. There are enough faults in my spoo's conformation that I am not comfortable breeding her. Thankfully non of them will likely have any impact on her health. They were all "minor" but the amount of minor faults added up in my opinion as well as his. He did give me some great advice on getting started in breeding. He said I can use Millie and take her to rally and obedience trials in both UKC and AKC and get some titles on her. Then in a couple years I can go to a reputable breeder and show them that I am capable of putting titles on a dog. He said that if HE were still breeding he would be much more likely to sell a puppy with unlimited registration if the owner was able to put titles on a previous dogs. I am going to my first Rally O training class this week with my Millie. Unfortunately she is in heat now and I have to wait until she is finished. The trainer said her being in heat is fine(its an outdoor class) and that dogs at shows are in heat all time and that it is just an added distraction that the dogs can work past. It really hasn't been bad, she wears a diaper and maybe it is just me but she seems so much calmer...less puppylike.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think you are to be commended! You did what you should do and got her assessed, and I totally agree with the person who did the assessing! Get out into the UKC ring. Get familiar and comfortable and have fun. Then look at approaching a breeder who tests their dogs and does something with them (obedience, conformation, Rally) and probably the easiest way to approach them would be to ask if they'd consider co-ownership with you. Let them help choose the right stud dogs to compliment her. You are on the right track!!


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## Sweetp (Mar 23, 2013)

I want to say how impressed I am with how forthcoming and helpful the breeders have been on this thread. 

I could never do what you do. Dealing with females in season, loving and parting with those precious puppies and finding the right homes for them. You are amazing!


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