# Question about structure



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

What kind of curve? Is he roach backed? Or sway backed?


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## lmperez (Sep 7, 2011)

roached. He was the pick of the litter but his tesicle did not come down. So I am wondering if this is another issue.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Roach backed is a conformation flaw so I am surprised that he would have been pick of the litter. Is this something that recently developed? Is he in formal puppy trim? Could it be a grooming illusion?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am not an expert by any means, just an observer who has read. I do not own a perfect poodle specimen. I don't think anyone does, well, maybe one or two in the history of poodles. 

It's hard to get a perfect back on a poodle. Mine has a beautiful strong, flat back, but then her legs are short. Some have beautiful long legs, but then they can be too long for their spines and pelvis to handle. Either their shoulders are too high up or their rear is. They get a roach if the rear is tall and the legs don't sit quite right in the pelvis, a hunch or sway if the front is too tall or they have weak back muscles or they are long backed. Sometimes both front and rear are so long plus they have weak muscles around the spine, so they get an obvious sway, especially as they age. 

No poodle is perfect. Yours may have beautiful long legs. And, yes, placing the legs behind the rump effectively lowers the back so a roach doesn't show much...if they are standing still. When they are moving there is no hiding it. 

It is entirely possible to have a strong, flat, short back and long legs. It is just difficult to achieve. There are some show poodles in this group that have achieved that (Chocolate Millie has one), but I would hazard to guess 80% of poodles are not perfectly flat, short backed with long legs. Those that are may not hold their heads and tails straight up. Those that do all those things may have ears that are too high. Other than aesthetically, the main problem with an improper rear is the possibility of hip issues later on. That's why breeders try to achieve that flat back and proper pelvis. 

A lot of flaws in poodles are hidden by expertly crafted hair.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

Could it be he is in a growth spurt and his hind end is growing faster than his front? Standard Poodles can go through some pretty wonky growth spurts!


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## lmperez (Sep 7, 2011)

Apres Argent said:


> Could it be he is in a growth spurt and his hind end is growing faster than his front? Standard Poodles can go through some pretty wonky growth spurts!


 Do minis go through this as well? That could be possible because I did not notice this before. But I am not sure if I was just so excited and missed this? I did take him to the vet and she did not say anything about it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lmperez said:


> Do minis go through this as well? That could be possible because I did not notice this before. But I am not sure if I was just so excited and missed this? I did take him to the vet and she did not say anything about it.


A vet likely doesn't know poodle specific conformation and probably wouldn't have mentioned a roach back as it is not a deformity and is desired in some breeds, just not poodles. I agree with Après Argent - likely it is an odd growth stage. Poodles really can't be too seriously looked at conformation wise between 8 weeks and 6 months or so. They go through some wonky phases. Since minis are the same breed as standards just smaller I would say, yes, they too can have their rear legs turn into mile long frog legs during growth phases.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Outwest- on the short backed note - it is desired as it gives a leggy dramatic look, but the downside to a short back, especially when *too* short, is that movement is not as good. A long backed dog can move better than a dog who is so short back his legs intersect.. You win some you lose some.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I didn't mean too short backed, then you have issues, too. I haven't seen that many poodles with a perfect back and leg balance. A three month old puppy changes a lot and many do grow uneven. 

I have a pick of the litter whippet who also had a testicle not decend. The breeder kept him for four months hoping it would drop. I felt very lucky to have such a gorgeous dog for my pet. He ended up almost an inch over the standard for whippets and his tail curled too much in the end. He is still gorgeous, but he probably would have washed out because of his size at 9 months or so. Even a pick of the litter is not guaranteed to be a winner.

The pick of a litter is chosen about 7 weeks old by many breeders. Then they are looked at again at 6 months. I saw a really good series of photos of a show puppy as he grew. At 4 months he looked anything but a show dog, but then he blossomed. Yours may do the same.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

Puppies sometimes roach their backs. (any breed) If you stack them and let them relax it will usually flatten out nicely. Kind of a phase. Think of the kid in school who got really tall quickly and kinda hunched over. When they were grown up and confident they stood straight and tall. Similar thing. Growing at different rates in different places makes goofy posture. If your pup still roaches at a year old it may just be a conformation fault but shouldn't effect them in the least. Sookie did that on the grooming table when she was little. I would stack and get her to relax and she would straighten out. Now she grew out of it.


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