# aggressive standard poodle



## Rowan

Hello! I'm sorry to hear you're having issues with your SPOOS.

I think some details might help us sort this out and to give you the best advice, so please tell us more about your poodles. 

For example: 
What is the age range and what genders? 
Are they intact or neutered/spayed? 
Did you get them all at once? 
Are they rescues or did you raise them as puppies?
What type of exercise do they get (daily)?
What type of training have they had?

You say the aggressive poodle is segregated from the others. Are you having full blown fights or just posturing and warnings? What causes these issues and does it happen with all 3 of your other SPOOS or just one in particular, ie, another female?


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## petitpie

*aggressive spoo*

Thank you for your kind reply. All are girl spoos (love the name) and spayed; ages: two spoos are 3 1\2, one spoo is 2 1/2, aspoo is two. Three came at different times as puppies, one 3 1/2 came at 2 years and nine months from another home. 

She played well until turning 1 year and now will attack the two submissives ( 3 1/2 and 2 1/2) She behaves well with the first 3 /1/2 dominant spoo. They are turned out in a large yard for exercise, three spoos together (1 dominant and 2 subs) and then same dominant and aspoo. They are out for several hours, morning and afternoon.

Three have had obedience classes and I continue to work with them. The aspoo is the best behaved because I've demanded it. Around the 2 subs her eyes glaze over, she lunges at one of them, and doesn't listen to me. 

The 3 1/2 sub will fight back and the 2 1/2 sub will not. Seems like such a mess that I'm not even sure that I'm being clear for you. I think the aspoo wants to be the dominant dog and is jealous of the others. Please let me know if I've left something out and you need more information.


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## JE-UK

Yikes. That doesn't sound pleasant. The worst damage I've personally ever seen in a dog fight was two bitches (who lived together!) trying to literally kill each other.

I'd get a behaviourist in asap to assess the situation. It may be that the problem dog can be convinced to live peacefully with the others, but the behaviourist should be able to tell whether it truly would be wiser to place her in an only-dog home. 

Where are you located? Might be someone here could offer a recommendation.


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## fjm

I agree with JE - when females fight it can get very nasty. I would find a qualified professional to spend some time with the dogs and advise you, but I think you are both sensible and loving to consider that the best thing might be a home on her own. It is not necessarily a dominance issue - some dogs just don't get on, and females in particular can decide to eliminate each other. Even if it is just constant bullying it is not much fun for the dogs, or for you.


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## Rowan

*petitpie*:
I've always had male dogs and I've been lucky in that I've never had any aggression or fighting issues. I think your best bet is consulting a behavioural specialist and letting him/her determine if this girl can change her habits or if she truly would be much happier in a single dog home, or perhaps living with a neutered male SPOO. (I'm sure your other three would be much happier with the latter option at this point in time.) 

You're doing the right thing by considering all your options, taking her to obedience yourself AND recognizing she might be better off in another home. Pat yourself on the back as you're doing great. 

My breeder used to say, "They call them _bitches _for a reason." She wasn't making light of it, but she once told me her spats all involved the bitches. 

I know there are a number of people on here who have more than one SPOO bitch, and hopefully they'll also weigh in. 

Please keep us posted on your progress and let us know what you decide to do. It's possible someone here lives near you and can help you with placement (if it comes to that).


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## petitpie

*aggressive spoo*

Thank you to those who have replied to the poodle problem, and suggestions are well-taken. We are in El Paso, TX. A trainer suggested I use Tabasco on a sponge on her nose to stop the behavior immediately and has had good luck with that technique. She is sweet and loving alone, very smart, full of energy, and might be a good agility dog with training. We are reluctant to give her up and will try to help her. More ideas please.....


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## fjm

I am a very uneasy with using such aversive methods to change behaviour - it may stop it, but the bad associations with the Tabasco are likely to reinforce her anxiety and dislike of the situation that causes the punishment - closeness to the other dogs. I really think you need a properly qualified behaviourise, and a referral from your vet, rather than a trainer, which can mean anything. The world of dog training is notoriously ill-regulated (or rather unregulated) - it is very important to check the qualifications and experience before paying for or taking advice!


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## liljaker

I agree with fjm -- it may accomplish your goal, short term, to get her to stop, but create lots more problems. Also, others may chime in here, but poodles are (IMO) much more sensitive than some other breeds, and some "trainers" think all dogs are dogs. I don't endorse what he suggests in the first place -- don't you want to get her to respond the right way, and let her feel good about that reaction instead of the association that might imprint by doing the Tabasco? I would speak with a behaviorist rather than a "trainer" and I'll bet you get other suggestions.


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## Rowan

petitpie said:


> Thank you to those who have replied to the poodle problem, and suggestions are well-taken. We are in El Paso, TX. *A trainer suggested I use Tabasco on a sponge on her nose to stop the behavior immediately and has had good luck with that technique. * She is sweet and loving alone, very smart, full of energy, and might be a good agility dog with training. We are reluctant to give her up and will try to help her. More ideas please.....


I'm with the previous posters on this one. To me, if you aggravate a dog that is already in a heightened state, you are just asking for trouble. This doesn't sound like sound advice at all. Sure, you create a negative association with sponges, but she isn't going to understand that her behaviour is wrong. I don't understand how this technique will impact her behaviour towards her SPOO friends at all, except to make her all the more agitated. 

Hopefully someone who has been in your situation will weigh in with some alternatives!


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## plumcrazy

Rowan said:


> I know there are a number of people on here who have more than one SPOO bitch, and hopefully they'll also weigh in.


I have 4 spayed bitches living in the same home. Two are spoos. I've had Juliet, the mini dachshund, for 10 years; Hannah, the 54 pound mix, for 9 years; Meau, a standard poodle, joined our family 3 years ago; and Lucy, our other standard has been with us for 2 years.

All of my dogs get along with each other all the time. I never have fights. I also do foster, rescue and dog-sitting from my home and just had a 4.5 month old female toy poodle mix stay with us for about a week - still no issues.

I have a happy, harmonious home - but that doesn't always translate to the big, bad, outside world! My Juliet attacked another mini dachsie at an event at a local park this summer. The other dachshund, who belongs to a friend of mine - AND who used to live at my house for cryin' out loud, ended up having to have an ear amputated.

My husband was the one at the other end of Juliet's leash and I've agonized over this a million times. I know that if *I* had been in control of Juliet at the time, she NEVER would have had the chance to lunge at Molly. Juliet is the definition of "bitch", and I know it! Whenever I foster or dog-sit, she is the one at whom my energy is focused - she knows that if she puts a paw out of place, I will not be pleased. I truly believe she appreciates knowing that she doesn't need to try to be the boss - she understands that I have it covered. The incident at the park makes me wonder if she didn't trust David to be on top of things - that she felt she needed to protect him, or herself, or whatever, from the other dog... 

Juliet is not separated from the others at home - she doesn't need to be... but I will no longer take her out where other dogs are present unless I know that I can keep my attention on her the entire time and not get distracted. She's 10 years old, if we can just make it through the rest of her life without anyone losing any more body parts I'll be satisfied! :doh:

These are my experiences only - and I concur with the other suggestions to find a _behaviorist _(NOT a _trainer _- these are different things entirely!) 

Wishing you the best of luck with your situation! I respect and appreciate that you're doing what you can to make things better for ALL your dogs!

Barb


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## outwest

You have a pack. In a pack there is often one that demands to be the leader and spends much time reminding everyone else of that fact. If you are the dominant 'dog' there often aren't as many issues unless you are not present. Then they will spend time reorganizing again. 

My mother had dachshunds. One was horribly dog agressive. She gave him away to a home with no other dogs. He was happy as a clam, not aggressive and my mothers home was again serene. I am not sure how attached you are to her, but I would look for a more appropriate home. Life is too short to deal with an aggressive dog. Granted, I have an extremely low tolerance for such mischief. Others would spend a lot of time working with her. To me, if it is part of her mental makeup, then she won't ever be 100% reliable around the other dogs. That doesn't mean she can't make another family a very stable, well adjusted, loving pet.


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## CT Girl

I keep thinking about the advice you were given about the Tabasco and the more I think about it the more upset I get. Not only do I think this will make the situation worse it feels abusive to me. A behaviorist is the way to go. I am so glad you posted so you could get feedback. This technique just does not make sense.


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## georgiapeach

outwest said:


> You have a pack. In a pack there is often one that demands to be the leader and spends much time reminding everyone else of that fact. If you are the dominant 'dog' there often aren't as many issues unless you are not present. Then they will spend time reorganizing again.
> 
> My mother had dachshunds. One was horribly dog agressive. She gave him away to a home with no other dogs. He was happy as a clam, not aggressive and my mothers home was again serene. I am not sure how attached you are to her, but I would look for a more appropriate home. Life is too short to deal with an aggressive dog. Granted, I have an extremely low tolerance for such mischief. Others would spend a lot of time working with her. To me, if it is part of her mental makeup, then she won't ever be 100% reliable around the other dogs. That doesn't mean she can't make another family a very stable, well adjusted, loving pet.


I completely agree! I rehomed a neutered male very small minipoo earlier this year because he constantly started nasty fights with my other dogs. I've had dogs forever, and he was one of the nastiest tempered alpha dogs I've seen, especially for a poodle. He was perfectly fine when by himself! A friend, a rescuer, found him a perfect home as an only dog (yes, the family was told he HAD to be an only dog forever), and he is now happily spoiled rotten by this family.


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## petitpie

*pet behaviorist for aggressive poodle*

Does anyone know a good pet behaviorist near El Paso or who would talk with us on the phone? Thank you...I'll hold off on the Tabasco....point well made.


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## petitpie

*pet behaviorist for aggressive spoo*

We also have ties to South Louisiana, if anyone knows someone in that area. Thanks to you all......


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## JE-UK

What about these folks? I have absolutely nothing to go on other than their website and their association with Karen Pryor, but they say all the right things on their website, i.e. dominance theory is outdated, punishment methods are not useful.

_Using scientifically proven methods and techniques, it is possible to efficiently change troublesome behaviors of animals without using punishment. Using humane training methods and techniques, it is possible to save animals lives and enhance the relationship with their owners._


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## petitpie

*aspoo*

So far, so good......


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## petitpie

*aspoo*

So far, so good......the aspoo is responding well to my ability to give her more time and attention. Right now, she is lying on her bed on the floor next to me for the first time, watching the Auburn/Alabama game and other poodles are in the room. She is sweet, loving, and well-behaved. I don't think for a minute that we are out of the woods. We'll continue to watch her, be careful with her and other dogs, and to learn about poodle behavior, a wonderfully fascinating subject! Thanks to all who continue to comment......


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## petitpie

*aspoo*

So far, so good......


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## poodlewrangler

Yes, poodle behaviour is certainly interesting.


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## petitpie

*Arrghh! Computers!*

Computers! Computers!


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## petitpie

*What in the world?*

What in the world?

I put my spoos out in two yards as usual this morning and found the aspoo with the other three when I went to bring them into feed??? All tails wagging, toungues out, all together friends, and I'm standing at the door dumb-founded!!! There was no noice, no evidence of fights, and I figured the aspoo jumped over her fence. 

That's all I have to go on until I talk with the great dog trainer/behaviorist who I've found........


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## outwest

It sounds like whatever you are doing is working for her. Great!


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## petitpie

Thanks.....I'm not really sure that I had much to do with it. She took it into her own paws, so to speak. I'm leary of letting her with them even now, since I don't really trust her or them to behave with me around. I'm still separating them. Any ideas?


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## petitpie

Here's how some of the conversation went with the trainer/dog behaviorist:


Less is more--less talking, more commands

Block the way--use your body as a barrier and "door"--less leash control

No treats for obedience behavior--reward for special occasions

Change routines--poo thinks more about what you want, lessens anticipation

"Sit" at doors in and out and in crate--think of poo being a "horse"....even Oreo


More later......:amen:


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## petitpie

Aspoo jumped the fence again yesterday. After a brief low-key skirmish and posturing, the pack settled down to explore.

Today, I took a leap of faith and let them all out together. After some initial sniffing, all is quiet on the home front and in the backyard.


:angel2::angel2::angel2::angel2:


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## petitpie

Uh-oh, late skirmishes....:2in1: It's back to the salt mines in separate fences. :afraid::alberteinstein::ahhhhh: :alien2:


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## outwest

I am sorry she's had a set back. I commend you for trying to fix this issue. It is hard, though, because she may never be totally trustworthy.


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## BorderKelpie

Honestly, with my experiences with bitches, if they've ever fought once, they will never stop. They can be managed, but never trusted together. Considering the expense I went through (not to mention the heartache and guilt) when Wishes and Trinket fought at one point. Trinket ended up in surgery to repair her face and a fractured foreleg. 

Please, please be careful. I don't want to read a post about one of your spoos getting seriously injured. I also don't want to read about you getting hurt breaking up a fight. 

I spent the rest of their lives doing a crate and rotate thing. They were only ever together supervised. It doesn't take much to trigger a serious fight.
Please be careful. 


OTOH, I do admire your effort in trying to work things out, though. You should be proud of yourself.


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## petitpie

Yes, thank you all.....I do need to be very careful......more later...


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## petitpie

BorderKelpie, would you do the rotation again?


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## BorderKelpie

Doing it now, probably always will. Just for my own peace of mind. I only let the dogs together supervised and only in compatible pairs (ie: neutered male w/intact female or vice versa)


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## Carley's Mom

I don't know if I did the right thing or not, but when I recued a male boxer and he and my older female boxer first got together , they fought. I knew how much my female wanted to please me and that she was the underdog, I strongly fussed at HER when this happened. I demanded that she give in to him. She never challanged him again and they got along fine after that.


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## petitpie

Better news for Christmas! :angel: 

With repetition and patience, spoos are calm and well-behaved. They are being kept separate and on rotation. We are giving them time and opportunity to be with us, for outside exercise, and for confined/crate time. Everyone seems to be happy and healthy.

Happy Holidays, Best Wishes, and Thank You to All on Poodle Forum for many helpful suggestions and encouragement!

:angel2: :angel2: :angel2: :angel2:


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## petitpie

*Update and Good News!*

My husband was out in the backyard working with the spoos today and will post about it later tonight. And all went well! :angel2::angel2:


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## petitpie

Update on agressive poodle;

"I think I made some progress with Clementine (aspoo) and Gabriella (scared spoo) today. I took Gabriella out in the yard off leash, then brought Clementine out on leash. Gabriella was scared and retreated to the back door. Clementine was communicating aggressive behavior through her posture and staring at Gabriella. Each time she would do that, I would use calming behavior by petting her and making her sit and telling her she was a good poodle when she would stop showing aggressive communication. I would bring her closer to Gabriella, and when she would be calm, I would give her a liver treat. Finally, I had her sitting next to Gabriella without showing aggression and would give both a treat and tell them they were good dogs. Then, with both on leash, I walked them around the yard, one on each side of me, pausing periodically to have them sit and down, giving them treats and telling them they were good poodles. Then, I had them both heel on leash on the same side, repeating the treats and praise. I then let them sit calmly next to each other for a little while. I put Clementine on her short leash which she likes to carry in her mouth and prance around inviting other poodles to chase her. She did so, inviting Gabriella to chase her by running towards Gabriella, then away. At first Gabriella was afraid to engage, but eventually, her love of playing got the better of her and she began chasing and playing with Clementine. Clementine showed no more aggressive behavior toward Gabriella and they played together until their tongues were hanging out. I don't think all of the problems are over, but I think it was a good beginning."


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## Chagall's mom

petitpie said:


> Update on agressive poodle;
> 
> "I think I made some progress with Clementine (aspoo) and Gabriella (scared spoo) today. I took Gabriella out in the yard off leash, then brought Clementine out on leash. Gabriella was scared and retreated to the back door. Clementine was communicating aggressive behavior through her posture and staring at Gabriella. Each time she would do that, I would use calming behavior by petting her and making her sit and telling her she was a good poodle when she would stop showing aggressive communication. I would bring her closer to Gabriella, and when she would be calm, I would give her a liver treat. Finally, I had her sitting next to Gabriella without showing aggression and would give both a treat and tell them they were good dogs. Then, with both on leash, I walked them around the yard, one on each side of me, pausing periodically to have them sit and down, giving them treats and telling them they were good poodles. Then, I had them both heel on leash on the same side, repeating the treats and praise. I then let them sit calmly next to each other for a little while. I put Clementine on her short leash which she likes to carry in her mouth and prance around inviting other poodles to chase her. She did so, inviting Gabriella to chase her by running towards Gabriella, then away. At first Gabriella was afraid to engage, but eventually, her love of playing got the better of her and she began chasing and playing with Clementine. Clementine showed no more aggressive behavior toward Gabriella and they played together until their tongues were hanging out. I don't think all of the problems are over, but I think it was a good beginning."


*Petipie*: What good news to end the year with! I hope things continue to go smoothly for your pack in the New Year. Stay safe!:smile:


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## poodlewrangler

Attempting to post video of Clementine and Gabriella playing:


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## poodlewrangler

Well, that didn't work.:argh:


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## Rowan

poodlewrangler said:


> Attempting to post video of Clementine and Gabriella playing:


Okay, now I must admit that I'm confused. Do you live near the OP? I see you're both from LA and both own 5 dogs, but your intro thread was vague.


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## petitpie

Rowan said:


> Okay, now I must admit that I'm confused. Do you live near the OP? I see you're both from LA and both own 5 dogs, but your intro thread was vague.


Rowan; So sorry you are confused......

Poodlewrangler works with our dogs and joined Poodle Forum at our request.
A very safe and Happy New Year to you and your guys!


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## Rowan

petitpie said:


> Rowan; So sorry you are confused......
> 
> Poodlewrangler works with our dogs and joined Poodle Forum at our request.
> A very safe and Happy New Year to you and your guys!


Ah, good to know. (Thanks.) 

We've had problems in the past with members signing up under two different user names, among other things. 

Happy New Year!


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## Chagall's mom

poodlewrangler said:


> Attempting to post video of Clementine and Gabriella playing:


Hi, *poodlewrangler*! In addition to posting photos of *petipie*'s Clementine and Gabriella, it would be a great New Year's gift to our poodle community if you might share some of your techniques for dealing with dog aggression issues. I believe I understood* petipie* to say you work her poodles? Some of us are concerned about possible harm coming to one of her dogs, or even to her, as she attempts to get her aggressive spoo under better control. Is dog aggression your particular behavior training specialty? If there are other areas of dog behavior you're credentialed to share information on, that would be terrific too! I do hope you'll consider becoming active in our Poodle Training and Obedience section.:smile:


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## poodlewrangler

Chagall's mom said:


> Hi, *poodlewrangler*! In addition to posting photos of *petipie*'s Clementine and Gabriella, it would be a great New Year's gift to our poodle community if you might share some of your techniques for dealing with dog aggression issues. I believe I understood* petipie* to say you work her poodles? Some of us are concerned about possible harm coming to one of her dogs, or even to her, as she attempts to get her aggressive spoo under better control. Is dog aggression your particular behavior training specialty? If there are other areas of dog behavior you're credentialed to share information on, that would be terrific too! I do hope you'll consider becoming active in our Poodle Training and Obedience section.:smile:


Chagall's mom, 

Thank you for your response to my posts regarding Clementine and my work with her. We have all been friends for a long time, and while I am not "credentialed" in dog behavior, I have had many years of experience in working with my own dogs, and was happy to try to help with Clementine's aggression problem. I have also studied extensively in the area of dog behavior, a very complex, and often controversial, subject which cannot be reduced to simplistic "one size fits all" techniques and solutions. Please be assured that every precaution is being taken to prevent any harm coming to my friends or any of their dogs. While I may occasionally post what I have done and what results have been obtained, I would not recommend that anyone else try to use any of these methods on their dogs because there are too many variables involved and every situation is unique. Further, I am a rather busy professional in another field, and while I will try to maintain a presence here in the poodle forum, I do not think that I will be very "active" in the sense that you suggest.

Wishing you, and all on the forum, the best for a Happy New Year!


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## poodlewrangler

Clementine and Gabriella on day 3


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## Chagall's mom

What a good way to start the New Year! I hope things remain calm and happy between Clementine and Gabriella. Keep us posted!


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## poodlewrangler

Clementine and Gabriella day 5. Clementine showed no aggression and Gabriella was only mildly concerned at first. They played well together and when they were both tired out, Gabriella walked over and lay down next to Clementine for a rest.


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## petitpie

*Update and Good News*

The four standard poodles now have been going out together for about a week and getting along very well. Poodlewrangler will post later and include details of their behavior and activity. Thanks for everyone's concern and well-wishes.


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## poodlewrangler

After reintroducing Clementine to Gabriella and Charlie separately with reinforcing calming behavior and being confident that she was showing no signs of aggression with them separately, we began allowing all four out together. Clementine showed no signs of aggression and enjoyed playing with everyone. After about a week of their being all out together without any problems, I believe Clementine's aggressive behavior has been successfully replaced with her more enjoyable play behavior. She often displays submissive positions to the others to get them to engage in play with her. I am confident that continuing with this will allow this non-aggressive behavior to become generalized and that they can all get along happily together.


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## comoracat

*No tabasco*

You should have a situation set up where the dogs are separated but can see each other. Have a high value reward, chicken, steak, cheese... What ever is the most favorite chewy soft reward. Sardines can work very well. 

Every time the dogs look at each other, throw handfuls of reward on the ground. Keep this up for a few minutes and then separate them again. You can build up intervals training time, but don't take them past their threshold. You want every experience to be positive without working them up. Do everything you can to set them up for a positive experience. This may take a few weeks, but it is possible to get them to start associating each other in a positive manner.

Good Luck!


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