# Timi Sit Question



## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

OMG You got Timi! YAY! Now to go find the post so I can see all the pictures of your darling heart girl!

I'm soooo happy for you! Sorry I can't answer your question tho! I too also wonder about what to do when you ask for one thing but the dog gives a different response that you also want to put on command.


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Yes, we are having the same problem...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A clicker does mark the behavior well so that she knows what it is she's being rewarded for. But you can use a marker word also. (although it is thought that the clicker registers in a different part of the brain than our voices and the message travels more directly. But anyhow, you can use a special word or sound) 

If you want to teach both behaviors, start out by not attaching a verbal cue at all to either one. You can lure her into the positions (but don't do this for more than about 3 or 4 reps) or you can capture it when she offers. Luring for too long gets them stuck and seemingly dependent on the treat/lure to do the behavior because to the dog, the luring/treat becomes the cue itself. (This is when you hear people say, "My dog is stubborn...he'll only do it for treats.") Reinforce. When she's doing these things regularly, trying to get you to click and treat, you can start adding your verbal cue just a split of a second before she gets into those positions....as she's moving into them, not after, just as her bottom is a half inch from hitting the floor. The movement getting into the sit or the other thing is what you want to reinforce. So, you can start pairing the verbal cue with the behavior and don't try to elicit the behavior yet with the verbal cue because if she hasn't paired the cue and behavior, she could miss the association. So do this for a while before trying to elicit the behavior. Then...when you're pretty sure she's connected the word, "sit" with the act of sitting, you can try asking for it ahead. Remember not to lure for more than a few reps if possible. If she's not getting it, you can go back and lure another couple times. Just try to fade the lure asap. You can lure with an empty hand...but treat with the other. 

Once you're sure she's associated the verbal cue with the behavior, ONLY reinforce the correct cued responses. You don't have to tell her "no" if she does the wrong one. Just wait silently for a few seconds and see if she'll try the one you asked for. Try not to repeat cues but if you wait a few seconds and you get no response, you may have to go back to where she was successful...if it means luring again once or twice to help her. Sometimes we ask for too much too soon and they fail. So, it's a balancing act. 

Again, if you don't want her pawing at you or waving both paws uninvited, do not pay attention or in any way reinforce un-cued behaviors. It's just personal preference if you want her doing these things automatically, at any time or if you only want her to do it when asked.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Chells_Aura said:


> OMG You got Timi! YAY! Now to go find the post so I can see all the pictures of your darling heart girl!
> 
> I'm soooo happy for you! Sorry I can't answer your question tho! I too also wonder about what to do when you ask for one thing but the dog gives a different response that you also want to put on command.



I started a new 52 weeks of Timi thread - go check her out 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> A clicker does mark the behavior well so that she knows what it is she's being rewarded for. But you can use a marker word also. (although it is thought that the clicker registers in a different part of the brain than our voices and the message travels more directly. But anyhow, you can use a special word or sound)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you - I think that I will have to re-read your post a couple of times to make sure that I understand all of the lessons there!
At this point though, we already have the sit on verbal and hand signal command - it is just that about 25 percent of the time, before I can hand her the treat, she leans back into a sit pretty and waves her two paws. And I DO want to capture that too, but I am not sure if I should reinforce that and give her the treat, or if 
I should wait for her to drop down because I gave the verbal command which she understands, but she did it and moved onto the sit pretty. But at the same time, I don't want the sit pretty to extinguish either. Now I wish that she didn't know the verbal command for sit yet, but she does, so what do I do now?
I think maybe we should work on clicker training today?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tp, just curious about a couple of things. is "sit pretty" a command you use with your two older girls? 

do your two older girls "sit" without the use of treats?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I would not reinforce her if you're asking for a sit and then she sits pretty. Click her quickly before she gets out of the sit and into the_ sits pretty_. Then take her around in a little circle to make like you're starting a whole other thing, new exercise (which you are) after a few sits and work on sit pretty separately. Perhaps aim for making it one fluid movement from a sit straight up into the sit pretty. (?) Or just work on sit more and then work just on sit pretty all by itself later. I usually work on 2 or 3 things at a time because they get bored easily. Just remember, whatever you reinforce will be repeated. What you don't won't. Think about what you want to be reinforcing all the time. Think about the timing. Timing is everything. She must look awfully cute when she does this. Maurice was doing the same thing at first when I was teaching him to sit. These little ones are like those weighted children's toys that when pushed down, they pop back up. lol. They get into a sit and their front lets come up. I started out reinforcing anything that resembled a sit. But then I thought, OK...you can sit. I'm only going to reinforce that and not give you anything if you raise your front end up. Then I'd do another exercise where I encouraged him to "dance" once he had several good sits under his belt.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I would not reinforce her if you're asking for a sit and then she sits pretty. Click her quickly before she gets out of the sit and into the_ sits pretty_. Then take her around in a little circle to make like you're starting a whole other thing, new exercise (which you are) after a few sits and work on sit pretty separately. Perhaps aim for making it one fluid movement from a sit straight up into the sit pretty. (?) Or just work on sit more and then work just on sit pretty all by itself later. I usually work on 2 or 3 things at a time because they get bored easily. Just remember, whatever you reinforce will be repeated. What you don't won't. Think about what you want to be reinforcing all the time. Think about the timing. Timing is everything. She must look awfully cute when she does this. Maurice was doing the same thing at first when I was teaching him to sit. These little ones are like those weighted children's toys that when pushed down, they pop back up. lol. They get into a sit and their front lets come up. I started out reinforcing anything that resembled a sit. But then I thought, OK...you can sit. I'm only going to reinforce that and not give you anything if you raise your front end up. Then I'd do another exercise where I encouraged him to "dance" once he had several good sits under his belt.



Thank you, that sounds like a plan!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> tp, just curious about a couple of things. is "sit pretty" a command you use with your two older girls?
> 
> do your two older girls "sit" without the use of treats?



No, my other girls do not sit pretty - they never seemed to have the balance for it, so I did not try to force it.
And yes, they sit without treats - much better for the hand signals than verbal cue though. Hum, I wonder if there is a hand signal for sit pretty? All of my dogs have always responded much better to hand signals than verbal cues. I guess that I could make one up, but I will look to see if I can find an official signal, so that it does not get confusing when we get to tricks class.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Dogs generally do respond and learn better via visual vs. verbal. Usually what I use to show them or lure them becomes subtler and subtler and finally a hand or other visual movement becomes the cue, along with a verbal. It's good to practice both in cases where you want them to do both. When I lived in Idaho and I had my Doberman, Lab and two Chi's, I taught them to come to a silent whistle, and in the case of my Doberman, a hand signal only, a verbal only...just practiced both individually and together. I did more with my Dobe than I have with some of my other dogs.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Dogs generally do respond and learn better via visual vs. verbal. Usually what I use to show them or lure them becomes subtler and subtler and finally a hand or other visual movement becomes the cue, along with a verbal. It's good to practice both in cases where you want them to do both. When I lived in Idaho and I had my Doberman, Lab and two Chi's, I taught them to come to a silent whistle, and in the case of my Doberman, a hand signal only, a verbal only...just practiced both individually and together. I did more with my Dobe than I have with some of my other dogs.



I always do the verbal and the hand signal together, I just find that they respond to the hand signals much more reliably.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh yes...dogs are so astute at reading the tiniest nuances of movement. They notice things as minute as a raised eye brow. It's got to do with survival. They are much more visual learners than verbal. While they can learn verbal cues, visual cues are easier for them. Sometimes we don't realize it but we're giving them cues we don't mean to just by some small visual thing we do. And they get confused and that's when people say things like, "my dog is stubborn." LOL. And example might be: We stand always facing them straight on when asking for a sit. We do it that way for a long time. Then we stand just a little obliquely or we hold our arm a little differently and they don't get it. "my dog is blowing me off. He needs to be scolded or shoved into a sit" That's why it's important to vary our stance and location, vary a lot of things so they can learn to generalize a behavior with our variations thrown in. Dogs are not very good at generalizing until they've learned HOW to learn for a while.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh yes...dogs are so astute at reading the tiniest nuances of movement. They notice things as minute as a raised eye brow. It's got to do with survival. They are much more visual learners than verbal. While they can learn verbal cues, visual cues are easier for them. Sometimes we don't realize it but we're giving them cues we don't mean to just by some small visual thing we do. And they get confused and that's when people say things like, "my dog is stubborn." LOL. And example might be: We stand always facing them straight on when asking for a sit. We do it that way for a long time. Then we stand just a little obliquely or we hold our arm a little differently and they don't get it. "my dog is blowing me off. He needs to be scolded or shoved into a sit" That's why it's important to vary our stance and location, vary a lot of things so they can learn to generalize a behavior with our variations thrown in. Dogs are not very good at generalizing until they've learned HOW to learn for a while.



Very much agree with you! I wish truly shocked when I once took a dog training class with a different school than my usual, and they were totally the opposite - verbal cues only, intermittent, poorly timed reinforcement, and punishment! 
My girls are so well trained from our usual school that even though I might go a year without giving a command, it is still there whenever I need it, but maybe 50 percent with a verbal cue, but 100 percent with a hand signal!


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

I do a hand signal too! People were always surprised when I could get Annabelle to sit without saying anything. A trainer told me that if we were separated by a street, that getting her to sit or down without being able to hear me was my best bet. Yeah!!!




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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Well we have sit, down, and stay on hand signal really well. We are close to getting potty on command - she will go the second that I put her in the puppy apartment, and I decided to use a "so-so" hand gesture to signal potty, but I don't think that she is really looking at me once she gets in there. Maybe I should give the signal before she goes in? Just not sure if that it too far away from the actual event for her to make the connection?
Also I don't like her sit - she backs up like two feet away from me when she sits, and I would rather have her closer, so that I can pick her up if I want to. But if after she sits, I lure her over to me withe the treat and ask her to sit again, she does the same back-up and sit every time:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> ...I don't like her sit - she backs up like two feet away from me when she sits, and I would rather have her closer, so that I can pick her up if I want to. But if after she sits, I lure her over to me withe the treat and ask her to sit again, she does the same back-up and sit every time:


does she back up if you sit on the floor or crouch? just wondering if she backs up because she knows you are going to bend over to hand her the treat and she doesn't want to be loomed over. i would imagine her ability to see your face also changes if you are bending right over.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> does she back up if you sit on the floor or crouch? just wondering if she backs up because she knows you are going to bend over to hand her the treat and she doesn't want to be loomed over. i would imagine her ability to see your face also changes if you are bending right over.



I have only worked with her sitting on the floor or sitting on a chair so far - I figure standing we will do when we start class.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

what about fading the treat so that she doesn't expect you to lean toward/over her?


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## Chells_Aura (Dec 7, 2012)

Is she sliding back once she sits or before she sits?
We have hardwood floors everywhere so Chell always slips and slides when she sits.

Maybe try asking her to sit with her back into a corner so she can;t back up anywhere?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> what about fading the treat so that she doesn't expect you to lean toward/over her?



What does fading the treat mean? I still have the treat in my hand with the hand signal.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Chells_Aura said:


> Is she sliding back once she sits or before she sits?
> We have hardwood floors everywhere so Chell always slips and slides when she sits.
> 
> Maybe try asking her to sit with her back into a corner so she can;t back up anywhere?



Nope she takes a few backwards steps, and then sits.
It is kind of hard to back such a tiny thing into a corner, but not a bad idea - I will see if I can swing it!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> What does fading the treat mean? I still have the treat in my hand with the hand signal.



don't offer the treat every time and eventually don't offer it at all. ultimately you want the dog to work for praise or just because it's fun. i guess one could say you're teaching the dog that "obedience" is self-rewarding.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> don't offer the treat every time and eventually don't offer it at all. ultimately you want the dog to work for praise or just because it's fun. i guess one could say you're teaching the dog that "obedience" is self-rewarding.



Oh, I think it will be quite sometime before she is able to think outside herself like that. Right now we are making progress, but still working on her realizing that all treats do not belong to her. Yesterday she was jumping on my hand as I tried to hand treats to her sisters. Today we have a down stay while I hand a treat to the dog next to her, and Then she gets her treat!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well we have sit, down, and stay on hand signal really well. We are close to getting potty on command - she will go the second that I put her in the puppy apartment, and I decided to use a "so-so" hand gesture to signal potty, but I don't think that she is really looking at me once she gets in there. Maybe I should give the signal before she goes in? Just not sure if that it too far away from the actual event for her to make the connection?
> Also I don't like her sit - she backs up like two feet away from me when she sits, and I would rather have her closer, so that I can pick her up if I want to. But if after she sits, I lure her over to me withe the treat and ask her to sit again, she does the same back-up and sit every time:
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Sorry I didn't get back to this thread sooner. I'd sit on the floor for a session or two and lure her with the treat in your hand to come up close and into a sit. If she backs up, _don't_ give her the treat. Lure her only a few times with the treat in your hand. Then lure her with an empty hand. Your hand can smell like the treat but give her the treat from behind your back with your other hand. This is part of fading the lure. Reinforce for close to what you want and then withhold the reinforcer once she's onto that and then raise the criteria...(a little closer) Treat for every correct response until she's getting it every time. This might take a few sessions. Keep those sessions short...1 or 2 minutes, then do something else and come back to it later. Remember, if she backs up, wait patiently and try again, but don't reinforce that. I'd use a clicker to mark exactly what she does that is what you want or at least baby steps toward what you want. But don't stay stuck with that for more than a couple reps. Up the ante...she needs to come closer and sit than the last time to be clicked/treated. Keep it moving. If she gets reinforced for one thing for too long, it's hard to break out of it and move forward. So, if she gets it pretty well a couple two or three times, move ahead. Ask for a little more. 

Once she's doing it every time, put her on a fixed ratio of reinforcement...that is for instance, every 3rd correct response. Do that for a few sessions. It seems to help "set" the behavior. Then onto a variable reinforcement schedule...every 2nd correct response, every 4th, every 6th, every 3rd. This is not completely random but you're taking an average number of correct responses for a pay off. (like slot machines work) Dogs do what works. Your reinforcer must be something that she LOVES, goes nuts over... and something that changes behavior or it's not a reinforcer. And for the best odds of the dog to repeat a behavior in the future, they need to be reinforced. Once she does the sit reliably after you've faded the use of a lure, turned your luring hand into a hand signal, you can spread the reinforcer out more. If you stop using a reinforcer altogether, the behavior can regress. So, still offer her a treat for the best examples of the behavior. This way you can shape it how you like or change it up at some future time.

Practice in different rooms, different contexts, with you in different positions relative to hers. Mix it up so that one aspect (how you stand or sit, where you do this) doesn't become part of the cue. Practice when it's just before meal time or when it's been a while since she ate so the treats become even more valuable.


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