# SOS! Idiopathic Vestibular Disease



## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My best friend, who is in very precarious health herself, has had her 10 year old TPOO diagnosed with idiopathic vestibular disease. Within the last month Clarisse has had 6 episodes. My friend was encouraged by two weeks of normal for her girl, and then today, another episode. She is reluctant to put her under anesthesia, for the MRI to rule out a brain tumor or an inner ear problem that might be surgically fixed. Everything I've read on PF suggests a do nothing, it resolves on its own approach. Any advice? Should she send the video to Dr. Dobbs or someone else? Should she do the MRI? Any advice or guidance would be greatly appreciated, the video she sent was beyond scary. I did send her the Bark article, fjm suggested in Cammie's Bob thread. SOS! Clarisse is the reason my friend puts one foot in front of the other and soldiers on. Thanks in advance.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I know that the same issue in humans, my Mom for example, can be resolved with gentle and very specific chiropractic manipulation. It fixed a horrible situation for Mom. She had been quite ill and bedridden with it. 

We have a couple of really excellent animal chiropractors in our city. If it were my dog I would visit with one of them before doing anything else. Our local Veterinary Teaching Hospital supports the use of chiropractic care as well as accupuncture for various ailments.

As a side note, after 50 years of monthly migraines which left me bedridden each month, a chiropractor fixed that too. No vigorous adjustments,just a very pleasant proceedure which takes about 15 minutes. No more migraines for the last 3 years. :angel: a true blessing and miracle.

I wish your friend all the best with finding treatment for her little friend.

VQ
Viking Queen


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks VQ. She's afraid the dog might die getting the MRI. I'm afraid she will die without the dog.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Anyone else have any thoughts, suggestions?


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## sarahebeth (Feb 16, 2016)

My dachshund had it about 6 months before she died (at 16), but only once and it resolved in a matter of days. 6 episodes in a month is a lot. I would probably do the MRI. The chiropractor idea sounds good, too. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I had no qualms about putting my Scottie under at that age for a teeth cleaning, but he was larger and his health was good. No experience with these tiny dogs. If there is an inner ear issue, the surgery as explained to me sounds scary.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Wow...that is scary that your friend is that dependent on her dog for life. I think she needs some kind of counselling. I'm so very sorry.

I did not have it diagnosed but I think Jose` had an episode of that some time ago, but never again. I think I even made thread about it. Anyhow, I strongly suspected that malady in Jose`.

The number of times your friend's dog had an episode is scary and it makes me wonder if it's not something else like a brain tumor or something. But anyhow, maybe this issue does present very differently in different patients. That is very cool how the chiropractor could bring about such positive results. Maybe she can try that. If the dog's blood work is good and the dog is healthy, the vet thinks it's safe enough, maybe the MRI would be a good thing. 

How about a brain scan? Oh, I guess the MRI would show brain activity. Could it be a misdiagnosis and it's actually epilepsy? Maybe a mild dose of phenobarbitol? Has she had a 2nd opinion or an appointment with a neurologist? I just don't know. I don't have any advice really. I do hope that something can be done. Your poor friend. I hope she can be consoled somehow if something bad happens to her dog.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I don't have much advice to offer on the diagnosis as I have never had this issue in one of my dogs. I can certainly relate to her anxiety about putting the dog under for an MRI, and if it were me, I don't think that I would do it to look for a brain tumor that you couldn't do anything about anyhow - but if could potentially be a fixable inner ear problem, then maybe - with a VERY trusted Vet, taking every precaution to insure safety.
And as a side note, no matter if this dog winds up doing perfectly great, it is still ten years old, and with the owner being as dependent upon it as you describe, I would do everything possible to encourage her to add a new puppy to her family well before anything should happen to this dog. This sounds like the type of person who should never be without a dog, yet she would probably have a hard time accept a "replacement" once it is gone. She would be much better off having that dog help her to to raise a puppy and have the youngster be an established part of the family before anything should happen to the older dog...


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Mfmst, I'm so sorry that your friend has this worry about her dear dog right now, especially when she is in poor health herself.
I don't know anything about this condition and have no advice to offer, but I am offering positive thoughts!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks Tiny, it's that fixable ear option which is the draw to the MRI. My friend has another Toy, which is very bonded to her husband. Clarisse is hers. She has survived the loss of her only son, and has basically been given two years to live with an inoperable heart valve situation. Those cheerful dogs AND counseling helped her crawl out of the abyss after her son, so there will be no more new dogs. Just these.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh your poor, dear friend. What an awful lot she has been dealt. I'm so terribly sorry.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> Thanks Tiny, it's that fixable ear option which is the draw to the MRI. My friend has another Toy, which is very bonded to her husband. Clarisse is hers. She has survived the loss of her only son, and has basically been given two years to live with an inoperable heart valve situation. Those cheerful dogs AND counseling helped her crawl out of the abyss after her son, so there will be no more new dogs. Just these.



What a sad situation. I hope that Clarisse will be able to stay well for her, it is clear how devastating her lose would be.
How long has this been going on, and how far apart are the episodes? Are they becoming more frequent? If I were her, I think I would hold out a month or two to see if they go away on their own. If not, I would probably go for the MRI. Ten years is around the age when they might be developing a heart murmur, which would make anesthesia more worrisome. 
That being said both Tangee and Teaka had anesthesia at 10plus years for dentals, Tangee's lasting 3 1/2 hours, and both did just fine. Of course you would want to make sure that they got isloflurene, IV fluids and monitoring during the procedure.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Running and jumping can sometimes fix it, if it is not serious and does no harm. 
Eric


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## Deblakeside (Oct 2, 2015)

My ten year old chihuahua had vestibular syndrome. My vet explained that it can be caused by an infection (such as ears or teeth) in which case it can be treated with antibiotics. It can also be caused by a tumor, in which case - prendnisone would help the situation. The third cause is "idiopathic" which means- they have no idea what the cause is. In this case it usually resolves itself somewhere between 3 days and 3 weeks. Others told me it lasted 3 months.

My vet treated with antibiotics and prednisone. Nutmeg did not had "episodes." She just had no ability, to balance. I had to hold her when she ate so she did not fall into her food. She started getting better, but when we weaned her slowly off the prednisone, she had a relapse. My vet put her back on another course of prednisone, and it helped a great deal. My vet's take was that if Nutmeg responded to the antibiotic, then it was an infection. If she responded to prednisone, it was a tumor. If she responded to neither, it was "idiopathic". For my poor Nutmeg, it was a tumor, and although she recovered from vestibular syndrome after about nine months, and had a last year and a half of being reasonably healthy and pain free, the tumor did her in in the end.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thanks everyone! Clarisse is scheduled for an MRI next Thursday. She was fine today. What a roller coaster! A total of 7 episodes, with a two week break before the last one in a one month time period. Her two primary care vets agree it's an unusual case.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I will keep Clarice and her Mommy in my prayers.

VQ


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Keeping your friend and her sweet dog in my heart.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

My dear friend and her long line of Poodles over the years, were what convinced me to get Buck in the first place. She had a Mini's when her son was young, and then handsome, Harry, the Standard and finally the Toys, Buddy and Clarice. When you've lost a child, every grief on this earth is small. I know if the prognosis is dire, she will do whatever is necessary and Clarice will not suffer. If the ear procedure is warranted, it will get done. If you are reading this, please offer a prayer that this resolves on it's own, so my friend can enjoy her tiny girl and hope that her own doctors are wrong. Add some gratitude if your health and your family are whole. Thanks so much.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

I don't know anything about this disease, but I do want to offer my support. I'm so sorry for Clarisse and her mommy, and I will be praying for them. {{hugs}}


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Wow...that is scary that your friend is that dependent on her dog for life. I think she needs some kind of counselling. I'm so very sorry.


I think the dog gives her something to look forward to and therefore she gets up and stays well to take care of her pup. If she did not have her baby then her need to get up and to interact with the world would be gone. Her health would decline and that is a slippery slope. I doubt if counseling could help. I pray that her little dog gets healthy and stays that way for her sake.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Well, Clarice had her MRI and a spinal tap. The results of the spinal tap to determine if there is fluid on the brain are not yet available, but she has no tumor, no ear issue requiring surgery and has not had a stroke. I think that's very good news except for the ongoing worry that she may have another seizure at any time. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers.

Mary


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I so hope there are no more episodes and Clarisse has an uneventful full life! I know how it is to have a dog be so important to your life. My mother is 80 years old and her miniature schnauzer keeps her going. She gets up every morning to walk the dog and walks her an additional 4-5 times per day. She LOVES that dog and the dog gives her a reason to get up and get moving. Definitely NOT a mental problem that she needs counseling for, how silly! Simply gives my mom happiness and companionship and love.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Wow...that is scary that your friend is that dependent on her dog for life. I think she needs some kind of counselling. I'm so very sorry.


My dogs have helped me 100 times more than any counseling I've received. They are my reason to live, and I say that without any shame. 

Keeping this sweet dog and her mom in my prayers. I think the results of the MRI are encouraging.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Mfmst, your dear friend and her precious Clarisse have been on my mind ever since you first posted this. The MRI results are encouraging. If it's thought to be a seizure, I seem to recall posts here where rosemary in a dog's kibble was thought to potentially affect seizure rates. Whose dog was that? Anyway, you might inquire whether your friend changed foods recently, or whether the food itself changed (same brand, new formulation--and these changes are not required to be instantly updated on the packaging). Maybe be sure to feed foods that avoid rosemary as a preservative (healthy as rosemary is for so many other things, but maybe some are sensitive to it).

Just my wild, weird thought...


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I just saw this thread today for the first time -- can't believe that I missed it. I am so sorry to hear about the problems with your friend's dog. 

It sounds like my experience with Bob was different. He had one massive episode that gradually got better over about 3 weeks. There's been no recurrence, and he is now completely back to his old self. 

My only advice for your friend is to be there for the dog and comfort her as much as possible. I heard a radio interview with someone who had vertigo, and I think vertigo is basically the same thing for people as vestibular disease is for dogs. The person with vertigo said that the experience was absolutely terrifying -- you feel as if the whole room is moving around you, floor tilting and walls moving. So I'm guessing that our dogs have similar experiences. In Bob's case, he really did seem to be emotionally upset in addition to his physical limitations. He wanted to know where I was every second, and I think it helped that I was able to stay home and be with him through the worst of it.

Also, my vet gave some medicine for nausea. Maybe she could ask her vet about that. 

Great news that the MRI did not show any problems. Wonderful! Hoping and praying that little Clarisse is cured once and for all.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Excellent news! Hope it continues to go well for Clarice and her Mommy.

VQ


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Thank you peppersb, I will give her that analogy. I wrote her about Bob and your Herculian efforts on his behalf. I did mention the anti-nausea medicine too. She had a male SPOO, so was immediately grateful that IVD hit her more conveniently sized Poodle. I will report what, if any medications the specialists recommend. I wonder if this hits small Poodles more intensely?


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't know if there is any correlation between IVD and the size of the dog. But I do know that it is more common in older dogs. In fact, it is sometimes called "old dog vestibular disease."


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Last night I was sitting in my chair, watching American Idol, and suddenly got dizzy. Still seated. If I moved my head it seemed the world would follow seconds later. Wasn't going away. So I decided to go to bed. When I lied down, wow did it get worse. If I shut my eyes, it was horrible! Pretty soon got extremely nauseated and ended up losing my dinner (sorry if TMI) Finally fell asleep and 3 hours later woke up just as dizzy. Again fell asleep woke up 2 hours later still dizzy. Fell asleep again and woke up absolutely fine. 

I now feel even more sorry for the dogs going through this. It is awful! My cousin said I probably have had an episode of BPPV. I googled it and it does in fact sound like what I had. A vestibular problem. Probably caused because I have been using tons of eye drops for allergies and constantly tipping my head back.

Anyways, if your dogs have these episodes just know they feel horrible! Give them extra kisses!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

N2Mischief, sorry you experienced that bad vertigo  I have suffered for years from migraine-associated vertigo and I get "spells" like you described (minus the vomiting, for which I am very thankful) whenever I'm under extreme stress. It's just awful. You may want to keep Bonine on hand now just in case you have another episode.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> Last night I was sitting in my chair, watching American Idol, and suddenly got dizzy. Still seated. If I moved my head it seemed the world would follow seconds later. Wasn't going away. So I decided to go to bed. When I lied down, wow did it get worse. If I shut my eyes, it was horrible! Pretty soon got extremely nauseated and ended up losing my dinner (sorry if TMI) Finally fell asleep and 3 hours later woke up just as dizzy. Again fell asleep woke up 2 hours later still dizzy. Fell asleep again and woke up absolutely fine.
> 
> I now feel even more sorry for the dogs going through this. It is awful! My cousin said I probably have had an episode of BPPV. I googled it and it does in fact sound like what I had. A vestibular problem. Probably caused because I have been using tons of eye drops for allergies and constantly tipping my head back.
> 
> Anyways, if your dogs have these episodes just know they feel horrible! Give them extra kisses!


I am so sorry to hear this, I have been through it as has my Mom. It makes a person so very ill. I had a very wise Dr. Who sent me to a chiropractor for this. He didn't do anything like strenuous adjustments, just a gentle manipulating movement of my head and neck which settled down all the stuff going on in my inner ear. It worked like a charm! I was so ill I didn't have any faith that this would work, but it did.

What ever you choose to do I hope it works quickly. It is miserable for human or beastie!

Viking Queen


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> Last night I was sitting in my chair, watching American Idol, and suddenly got dizzy. Still seated. If I moved my head it seemed the world would follow seconds later. Wasn't going away. So I decided to go to bed. When I lied down, wow did it get worse. If I shut my eyes, it was horrible! Pretty soon got extremely nauseated and ended up losing my dinner (sorry if TMI) Finally fell asleep and 3 hours later woke up just as dizzy. Again fell asleep woke up 2 hours later still dizzy. Fell asleep again and woke up absolutely fine.
> 
> I now feel even more sorry for the dogs going through this. It is awful! My cousin said I probably have had an episode of BPPV. I googled it and it does in fact sound like what I had. A vestibular problem. Probably caused because I have been using tons of eye drops for allergies and constantly tipping my head back.
> 
> Anyways, if your dogs have these episodes just know they feel horrible! Give them extra kisses!


Oh gosh,man, I'm so sorry you had to experience this!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

A happy update on Clarice. She had one final episode and it seems to have resolved, hopefully for good. I guess the motto with Idiopathic Vestibular Disease is to hang in there, it probably will get better and no one will know why.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

That is wonderful news! Thanks for the update. It will be very comforting to anyone else who has to deal with this issue.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Yes! I am glad this worked out. My heart broke reading this. I wish you could see my smile. It's huge.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Mfmst said:


> A happy update on Clarice. She had one final episode and it seems to have resolved, hopefully for good. I guess the motto with Idiopathic Vestibular Disease is to hang in there, it probably will get better and no one will know why.


Great news! I think you are exactly right with the "hang in there" advice. When Bob got vestibular disease, he was in such bad shape that I really thought that this was the end -- in fact, I was thinking I'd have to have him euthanized the night I took him to the vet hospital. But the vet said that the prognosis was good, and my Bob is just fine now. And Clarice is fine. What a strange disease.

Thanks for the update.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

So happy to hear. I have now had 5 episodes of BPPV. Each time is horrible and it comes on so quickly! I at least know what it is, I feel so sorry for the dogs that don't understand what is happening. There is a maneuver they do on humans that moves the crystals in the inner ear and can end an episode (though it hasn't worked in my case) I wonder if it would work on dogs...I guess it might be difficult to make them hold the positions for 30 seconds to a minute.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

N2, I am so sorry you've had more episodes. That must be frightening, especially not knowing when the next one might occur.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

N2M that sounds awful. I think you are right though that it must be worse for a dog to whom it is not possible to give an explanation and I also imagine the treatment you describe would be hard to do on a dog.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I had something like that quite a few years ago before I moved here from Idaho. I was hanging up my clothes on the clothes line, looking up and got incredibly dizzy. I thought it was something worse. Then when I walked straight toward the house, it was okay. But every time I moved a certain way or looked up, profound dizziness. So I went to the doctor and he said, "You have rocks in your ears." lol. He gave me an rx for an antihistamine which I hate because they make me so tired. And told me to, several times a day sit on the couch and go all the way over to the left, putting my head down on the couch, then back up and over to the right, doing the same thing...over and over 10 times...just slowly would be fine. And after doing that for about 3-4 days, it was all better. I didn't wind up taking but maybe one or two of the pills. But yeah...it would be hard to make a dog do that exercise wouldn't it. And I don't even know...is vestibular that? I don't really know much about it...just that Jose` had what I _thought_ was that.

I'm glad Clarice is better. That must indeed be very unnerving for them when they don't know what's going on.


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## Nicofreako (Aug 19, 2013)

This is for the humans - this video gives an explanation of some types of vertigo and a simple exercise to correct what's happening in the inner ear. I had a bout of vertigo (a first for me) a few months ago and I tried this and it fixed it.
I thought I would share it in case it helps someone else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQR6b7CAiqk

I remember afterward wondering if this is what is happening to dogs - since it is usually senior dogs and people over 50 who experience this type of vertigo. It would seem that vets might explore similar ways to use manipulating the head to clear the bits that are in the ear (if it is the reason for the animal's vertigo).
It also gives understanding to why it eventually will go away - but it would be nice to be able to speed up the process.


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