# "start praying"



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I finally got around to doing the Volhard Canine Personality Profile with Piper is a struggle, and now that I’ve finally done this test with her, I think I know why training (in ALL areas, housebreaking, tricks, good behaviors, etc)her has been such a struggle.

Her results were:
Prey: 67
Pack: 46
Fight: 30
Flight: 17

As I suspected, she’s not pack motivated at all, and the description for such low pack is: _“*Start praying*. Felix probably does not care whether he is with you or not. He likes to do his own thing and is not easily motivated. Your only hope is to rely on Prey drive in training.” _was at first disheartening, but then the description also includes _“this dog will give the appearance of having an extremely short attention span, but is perfectly capable of concentrating on what he finds interesting. Training will require the channeling of his energy to get him to do what you want. You will need lots of patience because the dog will have to be taught mainly through prey drive.”
_

I’ve not been using hand signals much with her, but the personality profile says that the _“Prey drive is elicited by the use of motion -- hand signals (down or come) -- a high-pitched tone of voice, or an object of attraction (defined as anything the dog will actively work for, such as a stick, toy or food), chasing or being chased, and leaning backward with your body.”_

So I’ll start working with hand signals and an extra-high voice at the very least. I have found that if I’m holding something she wants (a bully stick or an especially large piece of food) that she’s much more responsive to commands. 

Does anyone have experience working with a dog with Piper’s particular combination of traits? Any tips? Any prayers and good thoughts would clearly be appreciated by our family :afraid:


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm no expert, but Jane Killion's When Pigs Fly popped into my head. She's done amazing work with her Bull Terriers.

When Pigs Fly!: Training Success with Impossible Dogs: Jane Killion: 9781929242443: Amazon.com: Books



Website for Jane Killion, author of When Pigs Fly!: Training Success With Impossible Dogs. Dog training for difficult, stubborn, and non-biddable breeds of dog. Dog training, particularly for terriers and hounds. Basic training, training for behavior


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Just to add, I found her book at my local library and didn't go through the entire book's plan with Oliver so I'm not the best judge. However, I did work on some earlier steps she gave and believe it really helped start to turn things around with our relationship.

However...I got him as an adult and he lost a home he loved, so the dynamic was quite different for us from you with your Piper pup. Still, I loved how she started out with ways to work on getting a less than interested dog more operant, if I dare use a word I don't fully understand. We had positive forward movement that I've built on and the book is sitting in my amazon cart .


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I suspect that Dakota is not too pack oriented and has a high prey drive. He does respond more to signals than verbal commands. I found that I could use a toy to get him to go potty. It worked better than food. As he matures, words work better with him, but my first choice of comands is always hand signals with puppies.

The good news is that once you get a handle on her training and she matures, you probably have a good agility dog if that interests you. Perhaps spaying may help settle her as well.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Thank you for that recommendation Streetcar. Looking at the website, that does seem to be a program that might work well for Piper. I will definitely look into getting that book.

Thanks Minipoo, I tried using a hand signal (and a hungry belly) last night to teach her "high five", and while it might be pure coincidence, she did catch on much faster than she has in the past. I would like to do agility with her, even if just for fun. That's on the "dog related 2016 resolutions" list, along with both pups earning their CGC.

She is seemingly fearless and is incredibly agile and athletic. While not the fastest dog at the park, she is never caught in a game of chase because she's so good at sharp turns, and sometimes jumps(though it looks like flying with how high and how far she goes!) over other dogs that are in her way. All in all a great agility prospect if I can get her to listen


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## Wren (Jul 2, 2013)

Coldbrew, don't worry, it will come, you will have to work for it a bit though.

I posted Jonah's results on the other thread, they were fairly similar to your pup's, but I'll repost the whole thing here, too. If your pup doesn't make much eye contact, I'd start by working on that. You can google how to train eye contact in a dog and check out you tube, too.

Here is my post from the other thread.

The directions for this test say, “Answers should indicate those behaviors your dog would exhibit if he had not already been trained to do otherwise.”

So considering that, Jonah’s puppy scores were:
Prey: 44 (but I think his prey drive was higher)
Pack: 56
Fight: 22
Flight: 16

I think this fits his temperament pretty well. 

Jonah was bombproof as a puppy, afraid of nothing, and very, very independent. He was not very interested in doing what he was asked to do, had a very short attention span, liked to be around people or other dogs, and wasn’t a cuddler. He did not make eye contact very much.

Jonah is a very curious dog, not in a fearful or protective manner, and wants to know everything that is going on in the house or that comes into the house because he is sure there is something in it for him! He loves novelty, loses interest quickly with most toys in a matter of days and he likes to learn new things, but once he has learned a new command or “trick” (which happens very quickly)…meh…we aren’t so quick on the draw unless there’s something in it for him. Jonah will fetch an item 5-6 times and then he’s done. He will work for treats. 

He loves to sniff and track; these are his favorite activities. If I didn’t know better, I’d think there was a little hound in him. At 14 weeks old, Jonah tracked a poodle friend for about 3/4 mile to his house, a place Jonah had never been to before. I need to work more with him in this area. Scent work might be his thing.

He is a very smart, sweet, funny, obedient guy in the house. I did train him with gestures before using words and he does respond to gestures faster than words. Jonah has a sound, stable, resilient temperament. Poodles have been bred for centuries to get along with people; it is in their DNA so I don’t expect high defense scores. 

Jonah is not a “flighter” by any means and not much scares him. He alerts to intruder people, strange cats and neighbors on our property or passing by on the street, but it is just an alert to tell me someone is there…if they come in the house he will jump on them to greet them in an overly exuberant, friendly way…still working on this behavior. Other than the jumping behavior, I am thankful not to have to train a dog with fear issues. My hat is off to those who must work with those babies who are so fearful.

If people are upset with him, Jonah doesn’t really care, it’s like water rolling off a duck’s back. Yelling, shaming, collar pops have no effect on him…not that we use those methods often. (Disclaimer, I don’t yell or try to shame him, other family members and some acquaintances who shall remain nameless and have less experience with dog training might have tried it a time or two before realizing it means nothing at all to Jonah.) I am still working on having him work for praise and pets and eliminating treats and it is paying off. He is also much better at eliciting affection and making eye contact.

I have never once seen or heard any fight behavior from Jonah towards another animal or person. The only reason his score is what it is, is because he is not afraid of other dogs, even when he should be. He doesn’t stand his ground so much as he just doesn’t “listen” when another dog throws signals for Jonah to back off and leave them alone. He also doesn’t run or try to avoid when confronted with an aggressive animal. Jonah is more like, “Hey, dude! Woah…are you in a bad mood?! Let’s go play! Come on, come on, come on!” Other than that, I am again very grateful I don’t have to deal with a reactive dog.

Then, I redid Jonah’s scores as he is now (1 yr. 9 mo. old) and they were:
Prey: 34 (still a little too low I think, he will chase cats outside if they run, but not if they hold still and I’m sure he would chase small children if they were running and screaming, but I have never allowed him to practice that behavior)
Pack: 61
Fight: 21
Flight: 12

I am curious to see where this goes after he is neutered; or if it changes at all.

I also think the test isn’t really meant to be used in this manner… as a comparison…but rather as a way to understand the core temperament of the dog and what approaches might best work in training. However when comparing, it does help me feel like the work/training we have done is giving me more of the pack dog that I want and that I found my way to what will work best for training Jonah without damaging the relationship…training with treats, mostly positive training with a few “ah, ahs” thrown in when he isn’t right, saving the big “Oh, hell no’s!” for major issues (like when he began to lift his leg in a motel room) and consistency in method and expectations. For Jonah, consistency and level of expectation are important and makes training a little more challenging when others who work with him aren’t on board with method and/or level of expectation, so the end result is that he doesn’t listen to them as well and I have to reinforce training more than I wanted to, but such is life.

I also realize there are folks who don’t believe in the Volhard’s work, especially the puppy testing on day 49. There are people looking for sport/work dogs who feel it is highly inaccurate, subject to misinterpretation, doesn’t take a lot of other elements of temperament such as threshold and nerves into consideration and there are others who swear by it. Breeders who are aware of the limitations of the test may find the test helpful in confirming their impressions of the various temperaments in a litter so they can place pups appropriately. I think this info could be helpful to knowledgeable people who want a good family pet and help them avoid training methods that might not work for the pup. 

I haven’t delved into Volhards’s training theory as much, but I don’t see any difference between their theory of using prey and pack drives (use of play, tug, treats, praise, etc.) as current PO only trainers use, it is the use of the defense drive where some thought needs to occur based on the needs of the dog. The pdf (last revised in 2010 still recommends collar pops for some dogs whereas PO trainers work through this with other methods.) 

There are huge language and perception issues involved in dog training. For example, you can talk “good temperament” with many different people and each person is actually talking about different things based on what their perceptions are. I have a neighbor with a dog aggressive dog who thinks his dog is protecting him, when actually the dog is fearful. There are also so many old misconceptions about how dogs learn and dog behavior that seem almost impossible to weed out of the general population’s knowledge base. I have another friend here who has spent tons of money and time with training programs and individual professional trainers working with her Aussie because she wants a dog that will stay by her side when off leash…and yet, every morning I see her walking by my house jerking and collar popping a pinch collar every instant the dog is not attending directly to her and I have to ask myself, why would a dog want to be near the owner with all that popping and pinching?

There is so much more to learn about how to understand, work with and train our friends isn’t there?


Hope this helps.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Coldbrew, Lily scored very high prey/hunter profile when she was a puppy and look were we are. She isn't perfect, but she is a very different dog these days. Be patient and consistent and Piper will come along just fine with little praying needed.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

Wren and Catherine: seeing how Lily and Jonah have changed as they've grown up is very encouraging! I will remind myself of them whenever Piper and I are struggling


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