# New trainer doesn't like x pens



## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

He only has too much freedom if he is able to get into things he isn't supposed to. I always use an x-pen for my puppies, don't like crating for extended periods of time. It seems like treating the dog like a thing that you can put away in a box when you are done playing with it. I make sure the puppy is OK in a crate so that if/when we start training, showing and traveling later on he will be comfortable, but hate leaving him there for longer than a couple of hours.

You and your trainer don't have to agree on this subject, what you do in your home is up to you. An x-pen can be an enriching place for a pup, while a crate is just a dead space where the pup is forced to do nothing at all unless he starts crying/barking protesting.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I used/use a pen. I have no issue with pens. Most trainers generally don't. But I can think of two reasons this trainer would. Crates are better for potty training for most puppies. A puppy won't pee in a crate that is small enough. (My puppy was not one of these!) But that could be a reason she is recommending a crate. Another is that a smaller area may better encourage settling and relaxation in high drive puppies. If you aren't struggling with potty training or settling the pen is fine. Do what works for your dog.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

All of the responses above. With the added caveat to make sure your dog _can_ be in a crate for an extended period if needed without significant distress. Vet visits, groomer visits, and other situations may require it in the future. Otherwise I see no problem with your set up. Your trainer doesn't have to live your dog, you do.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks all for the additional context and reassurance. 
I'll try to get a more serious about crate training for travel/emergency purposes, but otherwise continue what I've been doing with the pens. I'm fairly well read (for a layperson) on different training methods and philosophies, so normally I can see where someone is coming from with their techniques. This one took me by surprise though. 

It's funny how absolute some trainers can be in their methods/opinions...
I understand that setting clear rules with your dogs is beneficial, but I've encountered a few trainers now who seem to forget that their human students might do better with more explanation of the 'why' behind their rules. I don't do well when asked to blindly follow the leader.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

It's taken me 30 years to learn to ask follow up questions, and I'm still terrible at it. But I have learned that many people proceed as if those they are talking to are clairvoyant and can read their minds. 

Ask questions, stupid questions, obvious questions, irritating questions. Unfortunately one of the many things people aren't taught to do is communicate effectively.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I would struggle to work with that trainer, as I don’t think that makes any sense at all. Indoor exercise pens provide very little freedom. But they do help teach our pups to settle in the “real world.”

If Elmer _isn’t_ relaxing in his pen, that’s a whole other conversation. But I don’t consider excessive confinement to be force-free training. You also mentioned there are other things she’s said that don’t sit right?


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

We have a bit more of an open philosophy.

My mom and dad (the parents who said, "your not really going to get a dog are you?) have a system, my mom (WFH, 65 I think) and Dad ("retired", 67 I think) - 

My dad basically goes on 2 walks with Basil during the day to get his exercise. Then, Basil will be locked in the bedroom with my mom for a nap who wfh at a desk in her room.

Then, during the day my Dad will play with Basil for 30-60 minutes to entertain himself.

Sometimes they both take naps.










Or my brother drops his dog off for the day and they have a playdate at g-mas. When they're with grandma in the room then that means nap time and no playing.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

PeggyTheParti said:


> You also mentioned there are other things she’s said that don’t sit right?


The other thing that I struggle with is her 'wait it out' strategy with his barking in class.

Elmer will mostly settle in the house. He's a teenage puppy, so we have some challenging moments, but provided we follow a predicable schedule and provide adequate outlets for him, he's fine in a pen. In public, however, he quickly gets overwhelmed. This is something that's gotten worse in the past couple of months.

Our class is semi-private, so there's just one other dog that Elmer was fixated on. We didn't initially allow them to meet, and Elmer started a high-pitch frustration bark. Since we were working on Settle, the trainer is of the mindset that any attention is rewarding and he'll settle if we don't give any feedback. Once he eventually settled, then I was allowed to give food rewards.

My instinct is to interrupt the barking, even if it means engaging in 'training,' and continue to reward quiet calm behavior. It seems like the allowing the barking is just letting him get more frustrated, and could be self-reinforcing.

Her guidance for what to do on walks was in line with my thoughts: keep distance as much as possible, reward for attention and good behavior, gradually build up tolerance over time. But in the classroom she wanted to teach a Settle, which apparently means ignoring your dog now matter what.

I'm not a parent, but I can't imagine "waiting it out" if my kid were throwing a tantrum. It seems like doing the equivalent with a puppy is just taking 'capturing good behavior' to an extreme. 

Basically both of my issues boil down to what I think is a problematic interpretation of the force-free training philosophy. 

Allowing dogs to practice bad behaviors until you can 'capture' something good
Managing the environment so that they don't have the opportunity to make mistakes, but resulting in incredibly restrictive living conditions.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Okay, the barking thing makes a little more sense to me. Yes, reinforce the behaviour you want to see.

That said, allowing a dog to fixate on another dog isn’t healthy for either of them. I would think she’d also have you practicing things like our favourite “Let’s go!” maneuver, in which you do an abrupt u-turn and reward for momentum in the new direction.

Personally, I want to learn from someone who I trust. If I’m constantly second-guessing them, it’s not a good learning situation for me. I found puppy and adolescent classes challenging enough.

Thinking about what would happen if Peggy obsessed over another dog, I can practically hear our trainer in my head: “_Get her working!_” 

In other words, ask for a behaviour that’s incompatible with barking and then reward for it.

Yes, I know the ultimate goal is a settle. But you have to be able to adapt on the fly. Maybe your trainer is a bit of a rigid thinker? I know people like that.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Barking in class can turn into a major issue. Normie took classes from two different trainers. One let me shush him if need be, and barking was never an issue. The other insisted that he be allowed to bark until he quit. Darn dog never quit. imo she gave him permission to bark. 

We ended up having to drop out because he came to associate the place with barking.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

PeggyTheParti said:


> But you have to be able to adapt on the fly. Maybe your trainer is a bit of a rigid thinker? I know people like that.


I agree with this. In the class yesterday, I was just trying to get through it. But the more I reflect on the hour, the more sure I am of my opinion on these two issues. 
I do think she's probably a bit rigid, but I'm also in the tough situation of taking what I can get locally. I just don't have many good options in my area. 
Now that I've clarified my thoughts on the matter, I might be a bit better equipped to discuss them with her and see if she'll agree to a change in approach. I used to just selectively ignore certain directions in my puppy class, but I'll have to deal with this one more directly... 



Dianaleez said:


> Darn dog never quit. imo she gave him permission to bark.


This is what I'm afraid of. Elmer did eventually settle down, but he can be incredibly persistent, so waiting him out takes quite a while. Also, listening to his shrill voice was stressful for me, I can only imagine what it was like for the other dog to have it directed at him... It really doesn't seem fair to anyone in the room to allow it to go on.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would recommend following an Ian Dunbar style with short and long term confinements in a crate with the door closed and an ex pen respectively. For a puppy who can figure out ways to get into trouble in an ex pen the crate should be used when the pup isn't able to be supervised in a way to be not in trouble.

From the perspective of a trainer who just got home from teaching with a headache from all of the barking I advocate for being quiet in class (just happened to have lots of green teams today, hence the noicse). We currently don't have enough room for crates with COVID distancing so dogs are either left in cars (usually in crates) or are working with handlers. We definitely don't have room for ex pens either. 

I advocate for the methods recommended by the instructor the OP is working with by and large.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Different methods fit different dogs. Dogs vary so much in motivation and drive and what they find reinforcing. The best trainers will take time to get to know your dog and find what works for them. I find that balanced trainers that follow LIMA (least invasive minimally aversive) work best with my needs in dog training. This trainer sounds close minded but that doesn't mean you can't get useful things from the class. Sometimes you learn what you can and then move on. My dog _does not_ respond to the ignoring technique for whining. He absolutely requires redirection or correction. _I know this from experience. _But it does work for some dogs. A good trainer will reevaluate when they see you struggling.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> A good trainer will reevaluate when they see you struggling.


100%.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Barking in class not only reinforces the behavior for the dog, it makes everyone in the class hate you, or at the very least, feel very least angry at you. So thank you to all of those who shush their dogs! My dogs never barked in class, and they would get very stressed by other dogs barking and whining. Which is honestly a major reason I've burned out from competing them.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I can’t personally handle it either. I actually wore foam earplugs to our last class, and none of the barking was even what I’d consider excessive. Just so piercing.  I find it a little more tolerable outside.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Barking at other dogs is not a behavior that I want to reinforce. The trainer suggestion that worked for me was to block my dog's view of the other dog and focus his attention on me. Words, high-value treats, whatever. It works for us on walks. If need be, we stop walking and converse human to dog (with bribes).

And thanks to PF, Normie has learned what 'quiet!' means. He would never have learned on his own.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Raindrops as a CPDT-KA certified trainer I have agreed to use LIMA techniques and do so. This does not mean anything and everything goes though. LIMA stands for least intrusive/minimally aversive. This means you start at the most positive and gentle point you can, but if whatever that is doesn't work then you have to move on to something that the owner/handler can be consistent with and is comfortable doing that will make an impression on the dog and will support the dog's learning and the growth of the team as a team. 

As I said above I had a wild headache when I got home from teaching today because things were on the wild side. I had more people than I generally like to deal with with no assistant (she is off her feet having broken her leg in December. I miss her terribly and can't wait for her to be able to return). I had no break time. At 10-10:30 I had an elderly gentleman who can't keep up with a big class. He has had more than one UDX, bred GSD and was the chief canine training officer for the NYPD but his bad knees leave him in pain if he does the pace of a class so we work one on one before anyone else comes. At 10:30 a friend who has an OTCh, MACh and RACh with her mini poodle bitch came in with two of her younger dogs. We set up beginner novice and took turns being each other's dogs until another great trainer friend came in and took over as judge. I felt sort of rushed with Javelin and it showed (so I spent the rest of the day being annoyed about how poorly he paid attention). In the meantime a very new handler came in with her lab. The dog is really nice as is the owner, but she is very nervous about trying to do the right thing (she didn't actually know what the word heel meant or that the dog should stay on her left. They were both so nervous that the dog ended up puking. The rest of the day consisted of three back to back classes: novice, focus and attention then another novice class all really should have finished at 1:00, but didn't actually end until almost 1:30 because so many things were needing careful management as people and dogs came in and left. Three people had lengthy issues they wanted to talk about. There was a pause to clean up after the dog that threw up and also one dog ran out of the ring during the 2nd novice class during the recalls to get to her co-owner who was watching (after worked the dog in focus). 

When a trainer expects crates but not ex pens or flat buckle collars instead of harnesses or wants an appropriate leash (not too heavy not too long, not too short and no flexis) they have experience based reasons for their "rules." As much as I can I explain why I am using the techniques i use, but I can't talk away half of the time of the class either. The more experienced folks want their dogs to be doing something useful, If they get bored they just do stuff on their own and that is also too chaotic to be productive. I think it is good to be adaptable in what you have as your mental picture rather than trying to make things exactly as you thought they would be or wanted them to be. This does not mean you go to someone who expects every dog in the class to start out with an electronic collar set so high that dogs are screaming when handlers press the button. And if you think I am just venting, no I am not. I can't teach/train if the handlers won't take direction or if their dogs are confused to no end. At the trainer/teacher's side of things there is a lot of management and balancing that is happening to avoid dog fights.


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## EVpoodle (Sep 25, 2018)

MyMiles said:


> Our class is semi-private, so there's just one other dog that Elmer was fixated on. We didn't initially allow them to meet, and Elmer started a high-pitch frustration bark. Since we were working on Settle, the trainer is of the mindset that any attention is rewarding and he'll settle if we don't give any feedback. Once he eventually settled, then I was allowed to give food rewards.
> 
> My instinct is to interrupt the barking, even if it means engaging in 'training,' and continue to reward quiet calm behavior. It seems like the allowing the barking is just letting him get more frustrated, and could be self-reinforcing.


As someone who ended up having to fix barking that started from a situation like this, I completely disagree with the trainer in fixing the barking. While in theory letting a dog bark itself out would stop it that does not account for the fact that it can be self rewarding for example on a down stay if your dog is barking and your come back you just rewarded the dog for barking. Personally I would interrupt the barking or preferably switch to something else before he even has a chance to bark. 

Just my thoughts.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Barking is very self rewarding behavior in many ways.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Regarding the situation in class, I don't think she should be using the other student's dog as a training aid to deal with your dog's barking. If I were the other student subjected to your dog's barking, I would be kind of annoyed.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I'm another person who feels barking it out is not a consistent fix. It probably depends heavily on why the dog is barking. Evelyn has started barking at dogs since we moved here, and he will bark until the dog is out of sight if I let him. I don't reward him by letting him greet the dog, which is what he wants, I redirect instead.

I'm very concerned about whether we'll be able to do the next level of group classes. Our most recent attempt we ended up in a class all by ourselves, but I feel like we need to do group classes for him to actually progress.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> Raindrops as a CPDT-KA certified trainer I have agreed to use LIMA techniques and do so. This does not mean anything and everything goes though. LIMA stands for least intrusive/minimally aversive. This means you start at the most positive and gentle point you can, but if whatever that is doesn't work then you have to move on to something that the owner/handler can be consistent with and is comfortable doing that will make an impression on the dog and will support the dog's learning and the growth of the team as a team.
> 
> As I said above I had a wild headache when I got home from teaching today because things were on the wild side. I had more people than I generally like to deal with with no assistant (she is off her feet having broken her leg in December. I miss her terribly and can't wait for her to be able to return). I had no break time. At 10-10:30 I had an elderly gentleman who can't keep up with a big class. He has had more than one UDX, bred GSD and was the chief canine training officer for the NYPD but his bad knees leave him in pain if he does the pace of a class so we work one on one before anyone else comes. At 10:30 a friend who has an OTCh, MACh and RACh with her mini poodle bitch came in with two of her younger dogs. We set up beginner novice and took turns being each other's dogs until another great trainer friend came in and took over as judge. I felt sort of rushed with Javelin and it showed (so I spent the rest of the day being annoyed about how poorly he paid attention). In the meantime a very new handler came in with her lab. The dog is really nice as is the owner, but she is very nervous about trying to do the right thing (she didn't actually know what the word heel meant or that the dog should stay on her left. They were both so nervous that the dog ended up puking. The rest of the day consisted of three back to back classes: novice, focus and attention then another novice class all really should have finished at 1:00, but didn't actually end until almost 1:30 because so many things were needing careful management as people and dogs came in and left. Three people had lengthy issues they wanted to talk about. There was a pause to clean up after the dog that threw up and also one dog ran out of the ring during the 2nd novice class during the recalls to get to her co-owner who was watching (after worked the dog in focus).
> 
> When a trainer expects crates but not ex pens or flat buckle collars instead of harnesses or wants an appropriate leash (not too heavy not too long, not too short and no flexis) they have experience based reasons for their "rules." As much as I can I explain why I am using the techniques i use, but I can't talk away half of the time of the class either. The more experienced folks want their dogs to be doing something useful, If they get bored they just do stuff on their own and that is also too chaotic to be productive. I think it is good to be adaptable in what you have as your mental picture rather than trying to make things exactly as you thought they would be or wanted them to be. This does not mean you go to someone who expects every dog in the class to start out with an electronic collar set so high that dogs are screaming when handlers press the button. And if you think I am just venting, no I am not. I can't teach/train if the handlers won't take direction or if their dogs are confused to no end. At the trainer/teacher's side of things there is a lot of management and balancing that is happening to avoid dog fights.


Lily cd re you sound like an excellent trainer and definitely one that I would enjoy training with. I apply LIMA in the same way. My understanding of OP's situation is that they are talking of x pen/crate use _at home_ and not in class. I fully agree that I would use whatever confinement the trainer wanted _in class_ but I believe that choice of confinement at home should be based on what the dog does best in. I explained a couple reasons why the trainer might recommend not using an x pen at home. But I personally found an x pen very useful along with separate crate training.

I definitely never allow Misha to whine/bark in class as he finds it very self rewarding. We have used positive reinforcement, redirection, and verbal correction. Ignoring is never helpful with him even though it works great for some dogs. Being in class with a barking dog makes it very difficult to learn things.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> When a trainer expects crates but not ex pens or flat buckle collars instead of harnesses or wants an appropriate leash (not too heavy not too long, not too short and no flexis) they have experience based reasons for their "rules."


The OP’s trainer wants her to use a crate at home, not in class. Class rules, I agree, should be respected.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oops! Posted at the same time @Raindrops did.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes! If she requested a crate for class use, I would absolutely comply, or not participate if that were a deal breaker.

I've disobeyed the instructions if trainers in my previous puppy class though. When they told me to firmly knee my puppy in the stomach to stop him jumping, for instance. Or decrease rates of rewards for quiet behavior in the ring when he was only barely holding it together. That was a 3 ring circus of a puppy class though...

In this instance, I think it's more appropriate to discuss with her before the next class how I'd like to proceed. I don't want him to practice barking during class, but I think it would be pretty disrespectful to blatantly ignore her instructions or waste the other students time by making a discussion of it during class time.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MyMiles said:


> I've disobeyed the instructions if trainers in my previous puppy class though. When they told me to firmly knee my puppy in the stomach to stop him jumping, for instance. Or decrease rates of rewards for quiet behavior in the ring when he was only barely holding it together.


That just broke my heart a bit.  A lot of people who use these classes don’t have the knowledge you obviously do. I feel so bad for their pups (and for them, too).


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

PeggyTheParti said:


> That just broke my heart a bit.  A lot of people who use these classes don’t have the knowledge you obviously do. I feel so bad for their pups (and for them, too).


Yeah. It was a disappointing class for a number of reasons, but hearing the instructors preaching positive reinforcement one minute, then revert to physical punishment the next was jarring, to say the least. 

It's sad for all the dogs and handlers in my city. Compulsion based trainers far outnumber those who use kinder methods, especially if you're looking for a group class. The puppy class I was in wasn't great, but we all could have done worse with other local options.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I definitely understood that the trainer was recommending using a crate at home to deal with counter surfing with barking (at class) being a separate issue. Counter surfing (like barking) is a highly self rewarding/reinforcing behavior. Your dog could also end up dying prematurely as a result of eating dangerous items. I have no qualms about a meaningful aversive to kill that behavior, but also in the LIMA way of thinking environmental management is often the first thing to do to modify a dog's misbehaviors so the crate is a useful tool and trainers often make recommendations about things to do at home. Today I spent a fair amount of time trying to figure out a management strategy for a dog who has destroyed a berber rug and is danger because he has ingested a lot of what he has pulled apart. Sadly the dog is never crated anymore and the room with the rug that has been destroyed is the dog's long term confinement spce for when the owner isn't home. Crate confinement is probably the most effective management strategy, but I doubt she will do it. Shen a trainer recommends a strategy for at home behavior problems it is based on their experience with methods that work and ones that don't.

I have an unapologetic counter surfer (Lily) and one who learned at an early age to not do this at all (Javelin). We dealt with this behavior in very different ways and with very different outcomes. Lily experienced corrections ranging from double sided tape on the edges of counters, mouse trap flappy booby traps, empty soda bottle booby traps, baking pans, getting sprayed in the face with water... You name it we tried it. She found the noisy stuff falling off the counter to be minor inconveniences and thought the water being sprayed at her funny and often opened her mouth to wet her whistle. She is 13 years old and I still tell her every time she has a go at it that if she dies prematurely it will be because of something she ate. The very first time I saw Javelin's nose peek over the edge of the counter on the other side of the kitchen island from me I set him up to fail and get a real correction that I still felt was the minimally aversive thing that would make a one off life saving learning opportunity and got my small soda bottle devoid of soda but loaded with a few pennies.in it. I waited and a few minutes later I saw not just a nose but a face. I didn't say a word but just flung the bottle so that it hit him on the top of the head and bounced off and clattered noisily to the floor. He has never been on the counter until a time or two recently (so it lasted 6 years as a behavior modifier). A few weeks ago BF left a brown paper bag near the edge of the counter and Javelin took it. He happily ate the bagel and is now peeking at the counter surfaces a little bit. I plan to set him up so I can throw the bottle with the pennies at him to remind him. It will take one time to fix.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I definitely understood that the trainer was recommending using a crate at home to deal with counter surfing with barking (at class) being a separate issue. Counter surfing (like barking) is a highly self rewarding/reinforcing behavior. Your dog could also end up dying prematurely as a result of eating dangerous items. I have no qualms about a meaningful aversive to kill that behavior, but also in the LIMA way of thinking environmental management is often the first thing to do to modify a dog's misbehaviors so the crate is a useful tool and trainers often make recommendations about things to do at home.


Since the OP already uses x-pens for environmental management, is there a reason you can see for telling her to switch to a crate instead?

All I can think of is that x-pens aren’t safe if you aren’t nearby, because they can be escaped if they’re uncovered, or even moved across the floor.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

With the disclaimer that I am not telling the OP to do anything since I don't know enough about her dog and what is happening regarding counter surfing or other problems I can think of many reasons to use a crate along with an ex pen for environmental management. PtP you are correct that ex pens are not the safest option unless set up completely correctly using the little feet on the bottom corners and probably with a top on it too, both to hold the shape. Otherwise an even moderately motivated dog can make it fall down on them trying to get out. I know since Lily did so a number of times when she was young. Thankfully she never got hurt, but clearly it did not serve its intended purpose to confine her while I did things with Peeves at a for fun agility class that I took them to together. Ex pens are large and for many people they take up too much space in the kitchen so unsafe for dog and owner if the owner trips and knocks it over. To truly manage problem behavior a crate is a good time out space where the dog has hopefully learned to self soothe and relax. The crate is less likely to allow escapes and will totally prevent the problem behavior. As I have described elsewhere Javelin was a crate failure as a puppy largely because BF gave in to him screaming in the crate while Lily and I were away at a trial when he was a baby. I was pretty ticked off about that since I knew he would travel to trials and matches with me and Lils. It took a lot of work to get him to be able to settle in a crate but it still needs to be a wire crate. I would have much preferred having him well crate trained at home when he was young as opposed to an elaborate network of baby gates and having him able to settle in a soft crate years ago.

I think all puppies should be happily acclimated to crates for at least these reasons (and probably others): house breaking training, environmental management of relationships between dogs that cannot safely be around each other (one old, ill, injured, etc), puppy safety when not directly and continuously supervised (prevent chewing electrical cords and such), protecting furniture from puppy shark teeth, confining a dog that is ill, injured or recovering from surgery, giving a dog a safe space when guests or contractors are in the home and don't want to or can't interact with the dog, giving a dog a place to choose a time out (I once had clients where the wife thought she could train her dog to love snuggling with her rather than trying to bite her on the face. Their relationship improved only once she understood the dog was trying to tell her he needed a quiet time out. I had her get him a crate and told her never to drag him out if he had chosen to go in.) There are only wins with a crate that the owner has invested time in training for use of and many problems from never crate training at all.

As to finding good trainers we need to be educated consumers. There is little regulation of dog training (really none). It may not guarantee a great trainer but starting by looking for a CPDT-KA or Karen Pryor certified trainer is a good idea.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I wonder if one reason to use a crate vs an x-pen is to avoid associating the crate with absences. It's not really safe to use an x-pen when nobody is around to supervise the dog. An athletic dog can get out; a less athletic or lucky dog might get stuck partway over the panel (a scenario that is just horrible to contemplate.) Therefore, a dog should go into the safety of his crate when nobody is around to supervise. However, if the only time the owner uses the crate is when she leaves the house, then the dog will start associating going into the crate with being left alone. I can see that association causing some problems.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> With the disclaimer that I am not telling the OP to do anything since I don't know enough about her dog and what is happening regarding counter surfing or other problems I can think of many reasons to use a crate along with an ex pen for environmental management.



Lily, I appreciate your perspective and context around what might be going on here. The trainer I'm seeing knows little more than you do about his habits at this point - the other student in class and I both raised concerns about counter surfing, so she gave us some exercises to practice and prescribed crating whenever we couldn't control the dog. When I said something about Elmer's pen, she asked if he had a crate, and I described my setup and his state of training around it. Her only response was "I don't like pens." When I asked why, she said they give dogs too much freedom, and that crates don't become serve the same purpose of a consistent, safe, place when traveling/moving. Then we moved on with the class. 

She said she'd send me some handouts about crate training, but I haven't seen them yet to know if they offer a more detailed description of her viewpoints. At this point, I know I need to put more effort into getting him to like his crate. I know it's a good life skill that I should have focused on more in his early months. But I can't see the reason to remove my ex-pens from the management equation, as she was suggesting. 

I'm planning to email her to see if we discuss alternatives to managing his barking in class. I don't want to give up on her yet, she still has some good material and I need the help. Up to this point, I'd been trying to find trainers that were offering group classes, since I wanted to practice with Elmer around other dogs, in a controlled environment. This class was supposed to start two months ago with more people, but due to a number of complications was rescheduled as a smaller class. In that time, Elmer has gotten worse. 

The handful of CPDT-KA and/or Karen Pryor certified trainers in my area only offer private classes, so it's _significantly _more expensive. But after seeing how he behaved in class this week, I'm thinking it may be our only option...


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

A private training session or two can be extremely rewarding, especially if you have lots of questions and/or something specific you want to work on. Might actually be better value for your money. 

One-on-one, a certified trainer can closely observe your handling skills, uninterrupted, and provide invaluable feedback. They can also set you up with plenty of homework that’s been tailored specifically to you and Elmer.

Our loose-leash walking “breakthrough” happened in an impromptu semi-private session, when the rest of the class didn’t show up.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would not get rid of the ex pen per say but add the crate to your life skills that you train for, but understand that they do give too much freedom to a dog for dealing with many of the things that need to be really well trained on. I also would not give up on this trainer and the small claas you are doing. The class will be the best way to get the barking extinguished since the instructor will be able to analyze why your dog is doing it and how to get it to stop. What I would do is find a certified trainer to do a couple of private lessons with. Have the person come to your home and work on strategies for training to have a happy in crate routine and maybe to help you know how to best balance the crate and the ex pen, and to work on the counter surfing.

BTW to respond to the idea of a trainer not knowing a particular dog or assuming different dogs need different methods we need to remember that we understand a lot about the neurological development and learning methods found in dogs. Almost all dogs will emit predictable responses to given cues and methods in training. Tis is just as in learning for little (and adult) humans. If we could not generalize and be successful most of the time then how could we design effective school curricula? Are there times to be adaptable if we encounter a dog or person who has a need that is not generally common, sure, but they are exceptions not norms or rules. One starts with something generally regarded as commonly effective, not with accounting for exceptions. Most dogs love food treats but some dogs aren't so you start with food then move on to something like playing with a toy or other life rewards like nice belly rubs until you figure out the particular dog. The non-food rewards are still rewards though and you wouldn'ttry punshment based strategies for a dog that isn't foo motivated.


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## Herodias (12 mo ago)

MyMiles said:


> So I finally started a new round of training with Elmer. I've been excited to find this trainer since she's one of very few people in my area to offer group classes with positive reinforcement methods.
> 
> While I think this is mostly going to be good, she said some things that I'm having a hard time reconciling. The biggest challenge we talked about was counter surfing. She gave us some exercises to practice to help teach an alternative behavior, and said that the dog should be crated any time you can't actively manage their access. I said that I put him in his pen while I'm preparing food, and she told me that she doesn't like pens. She said they give the dog too much freedom...
> 
> ...


I’ve been a teacher (little humans) and have also kept dogs since before then. Pure positive reinforcement is a big trend now, but I’m in the 90/10 camp. I would try a stern “Wrong.” for counter surfing attempts. Poodles are smart and get the message. I also used a baby gate to keep the kitchen off limits when I was raising a toddler and a puppy. My thinking is a little bit of negative makes the positive much nicer by contrast. Good luck.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I had to chuckle at the comparison to a kid having a temper tantrum. As a parent, ingnorkng tantrums is generally the best response. In fact, walking away if possible is what I did. But, in all h9nestly, it's not truly comparable. Kids don't bother to have tantrums when nobody can hear them (crying is different). Dogs obviously bark to themselves frequently. 
I have to say I kind of agree with the trainer, with a big BUT. Depending on the circumstance of when the barking started, I might ignore but also try to reduce the cause (for example, dog is sitting beside me, I'll move to block his view of the other dog. We are already walking, we'll keep walking but away from it). I guess it's more ignore the barking but do use management techniques to stop the barking. And then of course do a better job of setting the dog up for success with more distance etc. 

My one thought about the crates is that the trainer does not like the pens as an alternative to crates. It sounds like you have a crate but are not actually crating your dog, right? So in effect that is what you are doing. I can imagine in a class situation it's more simple and clear for the trainer to say "use a crate instead of a pen", rather than "use a crate, but as long as you are using a crate appropriately you can also use a pen in certain circumstances etc etc". 
It's alspnpossible that she has seen people use pens instead of appropriate amounts of interaction/attention, whereas most people who put in the effort to take a class are not going to over use the crate.

As a side note, while I don't usually work from home, I do often take my pup to work with me. She gets to walk around and say hi, and then is crated under my desk where she sleeps for 4 hours, sometimes 5. Then we go out for a walk at lunch, and she is essentially penned (stays in my office with her water, chews, and occasional attention) for another 4-5 hours (bathroom trip in the middle sometimes). You could consider a similar schedule for your dog as a balance between the two.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

On a related note:

Our neighbor’s dog has been barking ALL day and ALL evening. She’ll pause for maybe a minute (presumably to catch her breath or maybe have a gulp of water), and then it’s right back to full volume.

Clearly barking is its own reward, making it more challenging to address than some other behaviours. I agree with @Starvt that management techniques have to be used if you’re going to attempt the “ignore” approach. Because this dog is being _completely_ ignored and she is keeping herself totally entertained.


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## MyMiles (Apr 21, 2012)

Well, we had our second class today and I wanted to give you helpful folks an update on the barking.

I spoke to the trainer about my concerns about letting Elmer practice frustration barking without interruption. She stood her ground on wanting me to wait it out. Reasoning that he would needed learn to settle without my intervention and that any attention from m was also a reward, of sorts.

When I insisted that I wasn't comfortable with the amount of barking we were setting him up for, she offered the compromise of setting up a barrier between the two dogs. That ended up being a big help for this session. He still had a few bouts of frustration barking, but was able to settle, and get rewarded for settling, much faster. Class was much quieter and felt more productive this time around.

Reading everyone's experiences here gave me the push I needed to broach this discussion and stand up for my opinions on the matter. So, thank you!


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Great news!
So good that you and the trainer were able to come to a solution that helps Elmer succeed.
Good for you, for advocating for him.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Way to go! We found a barrier very helpful in Peggy’s classes.


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## Pat Mc (Sep 27, 2020)

An ex-pen worked great for my pup, whom we started fostering at 6 months (and later adopted). Like you, we had two pens set up so he could be safely confined when needed without being isolated from the family. He's almost two, and we still have one pen set up. Sometimes he goes in to hang out in the pen on his own, and he taught himself to go in there when a delivery person comes to the door! I think crate training is a good life skill, but I still haven't gotten around to working on it yet! 

Like some others who have already commented, I, too, disagree with the "bark it out" approach. Suzanne Clothier talks about how dogs need to be in the "think and learn" zone, and your dog isn't there if he's barking for an extended period of time. He's barking for a reason. Whatever emotion he's feeling is strong and is inhibiting his ability to learn. Ignoring the barking teaches him that you're not listening to him. When he stops barking, he's not "settling"; he's giving up. Based on your description, it sounds like his barking says that the class is too high distraction an environment for him to be able to settle. You're better off practicing that at home. It's always better to start working on a new behavior in a low distraction environment. Many trainers use visual barriers to prevent barking in group classes. It's a common problem. Does your trainer use visual barriers? Barriers make a big difference with frustration barking, fear barking, anxiety barking - any barking prompted by the sight of another dog or dogs in class. Creating distance works too, but it can be tricky to create adequate distance in a group class. 

Please don't hesitate to advocate for your dog. Please know that your trainer's recommendations are not indicative of what force-free training is about. I agree with you that your trainer's interpretations of force-free training are problematic mis-interpretations of the FF approach. 

I understand that your options for local trainers are limited, but if it feels to you that your current trainer isn't the best fit, I encourage you to consider online training. There are a lot of excellent trainers who properly apply FF/+R methods. Online training can be every bit as effective, if not more effective, than in-person classes. 

Wishing you and Elmer all the best!!


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