# Back to Back breeding - Opinions?



## Cdnjennga

I know this has come up on various threads, but I thought it would be good to have one thread where it's discussd. For anyone who doesn't know, back to back breeding is when you breed a bitch one season after another, without a break in between.

So... What does everyone think? What are the points against and in favour for back to back breeding?


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## PonkiPoodles

I'm against back to back breeding. If you have to breed then I think at the very least you want to allow at least one unbred season between breedings. To have puppies takes a lot out of a dog, even if it doesn't seem that way. 
I think a dog that whelps often (every season) will produce weaker puppies.


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## cbrand

I think there might be good reasons to do it.

What if a bitch is not bred until quite late in life. Our Gracy was not bred until she was 6 yrs old. We only bred her once (because it was too hard on her) but if we had bred her again, we would have had to do it back to back because of her age.

Some bitches only cycle every 10-12 months. How much time is not enough between breedings?

Some bitches cycle really often. My Sabrina cycles every 20 weeks like clock work. If you look at her breeding history, you will see that she whelped a litter January 2006 and December 2006. What you don't see is that she cycled in between. 

Some bitches are just machines. My Sabrina was a fat pig by the time her puppies left at 8 weeks. We had to put her on a diet. People could not believe that she had whelped a litter. Why would a breeder not breed a bitch like this back to back?

My issue is more this. A Poodle is a pet. It is not a uterus on legs to make a breeder money. There are other things to do with a bitch than breed her. I want to see that a breeder is doing some kind of training, showing, therapy on top of breeding.


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## KPoos

I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I've had a litter myself (I have 5 kids) and it takes a lot out of your body to give birth and recover. You lose vitamins through pregnancy and nursing your child so I would think it would just be nice to give the bitch a break to recover before putting her through it again. The older you get as a human the harder on your body it becomes. Also the more kids you have the harder it becomes. While it might not hurt the dog to breed her back to back, I don't see the point in it.


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## Fluffyspoos

KPoos said:


> I don't know anything about breeding dogs but I've had a litter myself (I have 5 kids) and it takes a lot out of your body to give birth and recover. You lose vitamins through pregnancy and nursing your child so I would think it would just be nice to give the bitch a break to recover before putting her through it again. The older you get as a human the harder on your body it becomes. Also the more kids you have the harder it becomes. While it might not hurt the dog to breed her back to back, I don't see the point in it.


Tell that to this family.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_Kids_and_Counting


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## Poodlepal

Also, litter size has an impact. Bitches who whelp and raise 12 puppies have a bit more stress than those with small litters. I have known many a bitch who had a small/medium size litter who were back in full form by their next season. When you have a superb bitch who you might start breeding later in life, you only have a few chances.


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## KPoos

Fluffyspoos said:


> Tell that to this family.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_Kids_and_Counting


AHAHAHA! You tell them that.


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## Purple Poodle

My issues with back to back breeding is what do you NEED another litter from that bitch so soon?

If you breed your dog you should have a goal in mind for that litter and as a breeder you should use that breeding to gain a puppy that will continue that line. If you get sub par puppies from that breeding I would not breed the dog again. If you get an excellent litter I would keep more then one puppy, not breed another entire litter.

The only way I would be for a back to back breeding would be if the litter was small (1-3 pups).


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## cbrand

Purple Poodle said:


> My issues with back to back breeding is what do you NEED another litter from that bitch so soon?
> 
> If you breed your dog you should have a goal in mind for that litter and as a breeder you should use that breeding to gain a puppy that will continue that line. If you get sub par puppies from that breeding I would not breed the dog again. If you get an excellent litter I would keep more then one puppy, not breed another entire litter.
> 
> The only way I would be for a back to back breeding would be if the litter was small (1-3 pups).


Sometimes a combination doesn't work the way you had hoped and you go to another stud dog. 

I kept a boy from my 1st litter and grew him out to age 8 months or so. He wasn't what I was hoping for so I placed him and bred again to a different stud dog.

Keeping more than one show puppy in coat is almost impossible. First it takes a lot of grooming time. Second, the puppies play and tear at each other's hair.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I do not agree with back to back breedings unless there is a good reason for it, as mentioned here- not being particularly happy with a puppy from the previous breeding.And then, only if the dog is young (2 or 3 years old). But back to back to back??? YIKES!! That is horrible. I also do not agree with breeding a female before the age of two. From everything I have ever read, a dogs skeleton is not finished growing until then, so because a female CAN produce puppies does not mean she SHOULD. She needs to put her energy into her own growth and development, not nurturing the lives of her unborn offspring.


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## bigpoodleperson

Another problem i have with it is if this is her first litter, then how do you reallyl know how well the puppies turned out if they are only about 6 months old? I dont think it allows enough time to really evaluate how the first litter did.


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## WonderPup

I don't have a problem with back to back breedings so long as they aren't done over and over again and done with a reason. For example if the stud dog is for some reason going to be unavailable and you reeeeaaallllyyyy wanted to use that one dog with this one bitch then I think it's ok. I don't allow a bitch to be bred more than twice in her life anyway and my dogs typicaly are only in heat every 9-12mo so maybe that has something to do with my opinion. I would probably take a dim view on a breeding program that bred a poor dog every heat for several years. I have only done one set of back to back and it was a case of the stud dog was leaving to go back to scotland and we had been planning the breeding for quite some time. He was supposed to be here in the states for two years but was invited to crufts so his scottish owners wanted him back for that show. Thus the back to back breeding, plus we only got a single puppy out of the first litter (different stud).


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## Cdnjennga

WonderPup said:


> I don't have a problem with back to back breedings so long as they aren't done over and over again and done with a reason.


Agreed. I think occasional back to back breeding (with solid reasoning) is fair. But if I see a pattern of breeding back to back (or worse, back to back to back) with every bitch the breeder has then I think it's a big red flag. Having had two PWD litters (both very small for PWDs, one only 3 and one only 4) I can see how much it can take out of the bitch. Constantly breeding at every cycle seems unneccessary, unless your sole goal is to churn out puppies and make money.


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## Cdnjennga

I decided to do some research on back to back breeding based on the claim that repro vets say it's healthier for the bitch, and came across an article in a few places. Below is an excerpt. What does everyone think of this (bolding from me)?

"What is "overbreeding?' In the wild, most canids can only reproduce once a year. Most domestic dogs can have two litters a year. When we first became dog breeders, it was 
almost a religious belief that no female dog should be bred more than once a year. We were told that it was important to "rest" the uterus between litters. Today, however, thanks to advances in veterinary medicine, we know that an empty uterus is actually damaged by the elevated progesterone levels that occur in each heat cycle, whether the dog is pregnant or not. *Veterinary reproduction specialists recommend that dogs be bred on their second or third heat cycle, that we do more back-to-back breedings, and that we spay the dogs at around age 6.*

The "overbreeding" argument also treats reproduction as something that female dogs wouldn't do if they had a choice. Dogs aren't people—female dogs actually want to be bred when they're in heat, and, with few exceptions, enjoy raising their puppies. It's not an unwelcome event for 
dogs."

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Articles/LegislativeUpdate06012009


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## cbrand

Cdnjennga said:


> *Veterinary reproduction specialists recommend that dogs be bred on their second or third heat cycle, that we do more back-to-back breedings, and that we spay the dogs at around age 6.*
> [/url]


The problem with this philosophy is that it does not take into consideration breed specific issues.

Cavalier King Charles Spaniels have a severe problem with MVD. It is recommended that breeders wait until after age 5 to breed dogs with clear hearts

With Poodles, we can not test for Addisons, Epilepsy, Bloat and really even SA. Only time will tell us if a breeding dog or its siblings are affected. Many, many people in the Poodle community advocate for waiting to breed.

In my 1st litter, I bred to a 3 yr old stud dog. That dog died a year later at age 4 of Bloat. My own Sabrina bloated at age 8. While heart broken, I was glad that I had waited until age 4+ to breed (she was 5.5 when she had her last litter) and that I had not bred her daughter who was almost age 3. It meant that I could nip a problem in the bud with relatively few generations affected. If I had bred my bitches starting on the 2nd or 3rd heat, I could have had 4 generations of dogs on the ground. 

There are very good reasons to some times breed early or back to back. However, it seems like the breeders most willing to jump on this bandwagon are those who are already breeding sub standard dogs.


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> however, it seems like the breeders most willing to jump on this bandwagon are those who are already breeding *sub standard dogs*.


ia 100%


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## bigredpoodle

I think it depends on the bitch the size of her litters and the situation . Such as age. 
Some Vets reccomend breeding them back to back. Say it is healthier for the bitch.. I dunno. personally I think that it per case by case


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I think if a bitch cycles only once per year then it might be more acceptable, but if she follows the norm, has her first heat at about nine months of age, then every six months after that, she needs a rest in between to allow her body to heal and have time to be herself. Call me old fashioned, but it makes me wonder if the people who practice this method had a thirteen year old daughter, would they feel it was okay for her to be pregnant every nine months. Just because she CAN get pregnant doesn't mean she SHOULD! A lot of gynaecologists will tell you that the younger a human female is when she bears children, the safer and easier the pregnancies are (20 years old as oppsed to 45).


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## Cdnjennga

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Just because she CAN get pregnant doesn't mean she SHOULD! A lot of gynaecologists will tell you that the younger a human female is when she bears children, the safer and easier the pregnancies are (20 years old as oppsed to 45).


Agreed. I think it's one thing to look at it from a gynaecological perspective, but you also have to look at it from other perspectives. Sure it may be healthier from a purely physical standpoint, but it doesn't take into account specific breed health issues, general dog overpopulation and the capacity of the breeder to properly socialize all the litters they produce. Comparing our domesticated dogs to wild dogs is besides the point. We domesticated them, therefore we control their reproduction!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I have a real issue when breeders keep female pups out of every litter born in their program, but they keep on breeding their Mothers back to back to back. When do they let this poor thing retire and bring her daughters into the breeding program??

I agree completely Cdnjenga. We domesticated them and are responsible for their well being, so, like I said, would we approve if it was our daughters bodies???


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## KPoos

Do breeders ever run out of pet homes to put the puppies that they aren't keeping or is there an endless supply of those out there?


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## Cdnjennga

KPoos said:


> Do breeders ever run out of pet homes to put the puppies that they aren't keeping or is there an endless supply of those out there?


I think just about every puppy eventually finds a home. Animal rescuers would argue that every home taken up by a breeder puppy is one less home for a shelter/ rescue dog. I see their point.


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## KPoos

It's a valid point but not every home would want a shelter dog. There are a lot of things to consider when adopting a dog from the shelter. I think that everyone that does it is wonderful though.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

BUMP!

We have a ton of new members, and some old ones who may have changed their opinion entirely or somewhat.

We are doing a back to back breeding with Betty-Jo. The girls cycle every seven to seven and a half months. She has been to the vet, who is also a breeder, and she feels it would be silly not to breed her again now. She is only three years old, only had five pups last litter, and is uber healthy. Now, that being said, she will NOT be bred the heat after this one. So by the look of their cycles, she will have about fourteen months to rest after her second litter before she is bred again, regardless of the number of pups she has this time. My opinion has changed somewhat, as I used too believe back to back breedings should only be done in very select circumstances, but now, with the vet we have, my opinion has swayed somewhat.


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## peppersb

Arreau -- Thanks for bringing this up again. I had not seen the thread before. 

I was recently distressed to hear about a breeder who is breeding her bitch for the 6th time and the last three of those breedings are back to back. The bitch will be 7 years old when the next litter is born. Apparently the breeder's vet says that back to back breeding is just fine. Sounds to me like this is not just fine, but I have to admit to not knowing a whole lot about it. So I am interested in what some of you think. Would this kind of breeding cause medical problems for the bitch? Would it be difficult for her? If it is bad for her, how and why is it bad? And what about the pups? Would the pups from litter number 6 be less healthy than the pups from litter number 4 (there was more than a year between litter number 3 and 4)? Not much that I can do about this, but I am just curious.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Well, that is a lot of litters and a ripe old age to be doing back to back to back breedings! It depends on the numbers of pups in her litters how much wear and tear this means to her. And in fairness, there are differing schools of thought on this subject. The "other" school of thought is breed back to back to back to back if your intent is to have four litters, then spay. Their argument is an empty uterus is a uterus at risk of pyometra. I personally do buy this and feel a bitch should be given a chance to bounce back and heal, just like a woman. This would be the equivalent of a 45 year old woman having a baby, when she had one nine months before, and nine months before that one. But, this is just my opinion. If we did not have the vet we have now, doing the testing and continual care on the girls, and if she was not a breeder who adores her dogs, I would have been hard pressed to agree to doing it once with each girl.


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## bigredpoodle

Well I have had Pyometra here several times with show dogs and pets So I am apt to agree with that Argument .I have learned if you have no intention of using a dog Spay them ... Back to back is something I am not a huge fan of It has happened here due to accidental breedings .... But I am never happy about it ... In my eyes to do it on purpose is not my idea of the right thing to do . How would you like to have a baby every 9 months . As far a breeding older bitches it would depend on the bitch ....How healthy is she ? Is her life been full of free exercise? Being able to run and play ? Has she had a good diet ? Has she been kenneled tied or whatever. I like to look at the whole dog.... I hope this helps .. In your case Cherie if the litter ws small and she bounced back She is young enough tested and healthy I say go ahead But there better be a good reason for it .....


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## Olie

I dont see the issue. Realisitic is a good word. All dogs and breeder situations are different. I never really had a big opinion on this other than trying to fit this in the wish list for an overall "good breeder" for my future dogs. 

If one has a healthy bitch, small first litter that did well, an experienced breeder, vet says go. I would do it. I think after that a bitch needs a rest. 

6-7 litters....too much. In all around circumstances to me. This would be with any breed. 2-4 seems the debatable average to get what a breeder needs to improve and move forward with their line. It's hard to always get that with small litter this is why 3 seems plenty to me. :angel2:


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## bigredpoodle

If you were a breeder you would understand .....That every time you do a litter you get a different litter. So if you have a bitch that is producing for you and doing something to forward your breeding program , the whole scenario changes... If you are keeping what you breed that is ,,,,,there is a difference in breeding for money and breeding for yourself. All breeders breed for a different reason . So it up to you to decide what you want in a breeder... There are plenty of them for sure ...


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## Keithsomething

I think breeding is so subjective that there is no straight forward "right" way of doing anything involved with it...(there definitely is a wrong way though as puppy mills and mongrel breeders have shown us...)

I agree with back to back breeding, as long as the breeder knows what they are doing and is 100% informed on the risks that may be involved with their bitch and I trust the breeder.

Now I'm not sure I'd ever choose to do a back to back breeding...having a litter of puppies is HARD work and I'd probably have a panic attack if I had 2 litters consecutively XDD But I'd never begrudge someone of doing it


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## Olie

bigredpoodle said:


> If you were a breeder you would understand .....That every time you do a litter you get a different litter. So if you have a bitch that is producing for you and doing something to forward your breeding program , the whole scenario changes... If you are keeping what you breed that is ,,,,,there is a difference in breeding for money and breeding for yourself. All breeders breed for a different reason . So it up to you to decide what you want in a breeder... There are plenty of them for sure ...


 I chose to not breed because of the knowledge I do have. I honestly don't think breeders (because they have) are in a big "secret" group to understand versus someone that has not. 

There are so many variables without delving too far off topic..having a litter of 5 minimizes keeping a good pup versus a litter of 8-10... the sex does not always meet the need for the line, we could go on and on. It's the health of the bitch. You mentioned you had accidental litters right? Did you stop breeding your bitch because of it or see things that you were concerned about that would cause you to not breed her again? These are the things when people are looking for answers that can be very helpful. 

You mentioned there better be a good reason for breeding a dog back to back. Can you share what these might be?


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## NOLA Standards

Some breed clubs dictate for members. Other breeders I suppose do what they beleive is right, for whatever their reasons are.

I'll go on record saying I'm not totally against breeding back to back. Some interesting reading is available theorizing that it is more natural and healthier for the bitch (as long as she remains intact) and her readiness is marked by her season.

Regarding rescue. Every want-to-be puppy owner that contacts me is directed to consider rescue. If we take on the responsibility of breeding, it's my opinion that we also take on the protection and betterment of our breed, and one of those responsibilities is working with the breed. Rescue is a great choice. 

Breeders are contacted constantly by people searching for pups - newborn and older. If, as breeders, our knee jerk reaction is not to sell/place a pup we bred but rather to educate puppy buyers as much as possible and to also rehab and help rehome poodles needing homes then we serve our breed by making a positive difference. 

There's no excuse for a breeder not being involved in their breed.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS My apologies for keeping the focus on poodles and not other breeds. No apologies offered for being a poodle snob :angel:


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## Rowan

First, I'm not a breeder. Just thought I'd point that out to avoid any confusion.  

I'm not sure how I feel about back-to-back breeding, but I've heard compelling arguments for both sides. It seems like a sound practice if one intends to breed a bitch twice and then retire her for whatever reason, etc. (Especially if a vet is on board and clears the breeding.)

At the risk of sounding like a total snob, I'd be more concerned with a breeder routinely having "accidental breedings." Aside from the perception of recklessness or irresponsibility that arise, from what I know 'breeding' is a carefully orchestrated, well-thought out endeavor. You purposely breed Bitch A to Dog D. So, if Bitch A is knocked up by Dog F instead, that doesn't strike me as a good thing. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear of such things, I can't help but question what else is going on. 

I've been fortunate in that I've found some wonderful poodles via rescue. I predict any and all future poodles will come from rescue. 

ETA: Am I way off base? Are "accidental breedings" a common occurrence?


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## NOLA Standards

Rowan,

A bit of a side note - but on FaceBook search for Creole Poodle Rescue of Louisiana. Sharla has just created the group and will be posting photos of available rescues.

We are working to get the word out and have plenty of FB FRIENDS who support poodle rescue and will help us keep rescue top of mind with the public. I'm so thrilled with my pups out of a bred by litter, but I'm just as happy helping place a rescued poodle in a great home.

Thanks!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Rowan

NOLA Standards said:


> Rowan,
> 
> A bit of a side note - but on FaceBook search for Creole Poodle Rescue of Louisiana. Sharla has just created the group and will be posting photos of available rescues.
> 
> We are working to get the word out and have plenty of FB FRIENDS who support poodle rescue and will help us keep rescue top of mind with the public. I'm so thrilled with my pups out of a bred by litter, but I'm just as happy helping place a rescued poodle in a great home.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


Thanks! I just found and "liked" her page.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

peppersb said:


> Arreau -- Thanks for bringing this up again. I had not seen the thread before.
> 
> I was recently distressed to hear about a breeder who is breeding her bitch for the 6th time and the last three of those breedings are back to back. The bitch will be 7 years old when the next litter is born.
> 
> Apparently the breeder's vet says that back to back breeding is just fine.
> 
> Would this kind of breeding cause medical problems for the bitch? Would it be difficult for her? If it is bad for her, how and why is it bad?
> 
> And what about the pups? Would the pups from litter number 6 be less healthy than the pups from litter number 4 (there was more than a year between litter number 3 and 4)?


Wow peppersb great questions! Thanks arreau for this topic.

1. When breeding a bitch I like an older fully up-to-date health tested bitch to breed. If the bitches first litter is when she is four or five you have more knowledge about her health and her siblings/parents and their health/testing results. I have no problem with the seven years old having a litter but do have a problem with 6 litters by age 7. This sounds like the motive for breeding was purely for profit or show, (not normal showing but the breeder who breeds for more and more puppies to increase his/her prestige by winning).

You also have to think of the difference between toys, minis and standards. Most of the talking seems to be about standards. If I was a toy breeder and only had one or two puppies a litter I would be apt to breed more litters than as a standard breeder.

2. Veterinarians are like lawyers - if you don't like what they say just go to a different one. There are some great vets who put dogs first but then there are the ones who say if you pay I'll play. No matter how good a vet is they must be aware of the bottom line - it is a service industry and ya know - the customer is always right.

3. I do not think a healthy poodle of adequate weight would be in immediate jeopardy at six litters. Breeders should be aware a bitch will give to her puppies from her own body, including muscle mass for protein or calcium from bones if needed. Mother nature protects reproduction of the species by allowing breeding repeatedly but in the wild puppies die and most puppies in a poodle breeding survive. 
Look at the breeders history. Does the breeder routinely breed back to back, and/or have six litter out of a six year old bitch?

4. IMO puppy health is not usually affected if the bitch is fed properly and is healthy.

I think number of litters is a better indicator than age of the bitch. My belief is no more than 4 litters out of a standard. That should be the absolute maximum!


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