# Handler Advice?



## MGKelly (Oct 25, 2010)

My Male Toy poodle is about 5 months away from being old enough to be shown and hopefully structure develops as it should. Also hoping he stays at or under 10" but I need to be looking for a possible future handler just in case a plan comes together 

I live in IL between St Louis and Evansville, IN. Anyone have any suggestions on a handler I might contact or talk to in the coming months?

I am planning on attending the Belleville, IL shows 1st weekend of Dec just to look around.

Any help will be appreciated!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Go to as many shows as you can and observe. Go well before ring time so you can watch the handlers put the dogs together.
(Don't try to have a conversation during this time. You probably know this, but so many people somehow don't!)

After a few shows you should have an idea whose work you like and how they are with the animals.

Once they are breaking down the topknots go over and see if they have time to talk. A lot of handlers will have a special and you might even have to wait until after groups...

Depending on the handler, keep in mind you'll likely need to plan quite a bit ahead so you'll have a spot when your pup is ready.

Good Luck.


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## bigdancehawk (Nov 26, 2010)

*The OP leads me to ask what if?*

What if your toy poodle is 11 inches tall? Could you show him/her as as miniature? The reason I'm asking is that we have a 9 month old toy poodle who's an inch too tall!


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## MGKelly (Oct 25, 2010)

I'm really new to poodles but I would assume an 11 to 12 inch toy poodle would look so out of place in the Miniature class that a judge would not really consider using them. 

I might be wrong though


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

MGKelly, is Jennifer Dege in your area? Google Refinne or Degana and you will find her. I believe she handles toys as well as standards and minis. A friend has used her and I believe she has been very pleased. As Tabatha said, go a show and use your eyes. Stand back and observe how they work with the dogs on the table and in the ring.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

bigdancehawk said:


> What if your toy poodle is 11 inches tall? Could you show him/her as as miniature? The reason I'm asking is that we have a 9 month old toy poodle who's an inch too tall!


You *can* show them as a mini, but you probably won't get anywhere. Although the standard is the same, the look is different. Also, most of the minis in the ring will be pushing 15", so that will make it even more obvious.


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## MGKelly (Oct 25, 2010)

Feralpudel said:


> MGKelly, is Jennifer Dege in your area? Google Refinne or Degana and you will find her. I believe she handles toys as well as standards and minis. A friend has used her and I believe she has been very pleased. As Tabatha said, go a show and use your eyes. Stand back and observe how they work with the dogs on the table and in the ring.


Thanks! I'll try to find out just where she is. I'll be going to a show next weekend so hopefully I'll be meeting a prospective handler.


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## bigdancehawk (Nov 26, 2010)

MGKelly said:


> I'm really new to poodles but I would assume an 11 to 12 inch toy poodle would look so out of place in the Miniature class that a judge would not really consider using them.
> 
> I might be wrong though


Then again, you might be right. 

My question is not whether she'd win the class or anything like that. It's whether it would be against the rules.


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

bigdancehawk said:


> Then again, you might be right.
> 
> My question is not whether she'd win the class or anything like that. It's whether it would be against the rules.



You can get a copy of the illustrated breed standard for poodles at the Poodle Club of Americas website, I just was looking over it actually!

In terms of size, if its a toy poodle and its just too tall, then it would be disqualified. With showing, you should evaluate your dog to see if it is of show quality, and if they just aren't within the standards guidelines, then altering the dog and taking part in other events would probably be the best option.

However, that all being said, if you wanted to just learn how to groom, handle, etc with your dog, you might be able to still participate...especially in amateur handler classes and whatnot. That would be something to look into if you want to get into conformation!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

bigdancehawk said:


> Then again, you might be right.
> 
> My question is not whether she'd win the class or anything like that. It's whether it would be against the rules.


No, it would not be against the rules to show an 11" Poodle in the Miniature class.


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

cbrand said:


> No, it would not be against the rules to show an 11" Poodle in the Miniature class.


I agree, it would not be against the rules, it simply states between 10 and 15 inches to be shown as a miniature...but in actuality, can you take an 11" toy poodle and just rename it as a miniature and try to show it as such?

The standard says "As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal" - the breed standard from the PCoA. 

I have never thought of this, this is all a very good question!


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I think that the OP with the oversize toy realizes it would not be competitive in the mini classes--she just wanted to show for the experience and wanted to make sure it wasn't against the rules to show a toy as a mini. It is not, because technically it is a mini if it is mini size even though a breeder can look at the pedigree and see that it is toy breeding. 

The issue with the wording of the standard is interesting. The standard says that diminuitiveness should carry the day, all else equal. But that doesn't seem to be what actually happens, because you see a lot of toys and minis right up against their height limits.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

MyDogElwyn said:


> I agree, it would not be against the rules, it simply states between 10 and 15 inches to be shown as a miniature...but in actuality, can you take an 11" toy poodle and just rename it as a miniature and try to show it as such?


Yes and no. You would not be excused for showing in the Miniature class, but you would not win. Toys have a different look than Minis and a Toy in a Mini class would look out of place. I have seen bitches in the 13" range do well but not Poodles smaller than that.



> The standard says "As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal" - the breed standard from the PCoA.


I think this in is the standard to keep people from breeding over sized. However most show Toy and Mini Poodles really push up against the top end of their standards. This is because the larger Minis and Toys have more presence and they seem to generally move better.


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## MGKelly (Oct 25, 2010)

Also is not 11" the height accepted for a Toy in parts of the world?

It seems to me that I have seen many toys finish that are obviously 10 1/2" to 11". Am I wrong? Just how many judges will actually measure? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems consistency would be nice.

I know in some activities, hounds for instance, a dog had to be either officially measured or measured at every event. Either premeasured or measured for winners pack should they make it that far. I spent several years judging AKC Field Trials.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

MGKelly said:


> Also is not 11" the height accepted for a Toy in parts of the world?


Yes, but not in the US.



> It seems to me that I have seen many toys finish that are obviously 10 1/2" to 11". Am I wrong? Just how many judges will actually measure? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but it seems consistency would be nice.


Oh for sure. I think a lot of Toys exceed the standard limit of 10". If I had a Toy who was 11", I'd give it a shot and show it as a Toy (with a dog though.... I think that with a bitch you would be out of luck). But people should know that there are plenty of judges who do measure. I think if your Poodle is measured over sized three times then it can not be shown again.


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## bigdancehawk (Nov 26, 2010)

cbrand said:


> No, it would not be against the rules to show an 11" Poodle in the Miniature class.


Thank you and the others who answered. I was mainly trying to satisfy my curiosity about whether there's a sharp line between Toys and Miniatures when it comes to showing.


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## MyDogElwyn (Nov 27, 2010)

Thanks all for the replies! This is really interesting, thanks for letting me throw that question in there.


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