# Maizie has no interest in pleasing, won't do down anymore



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I would put a leash on her and gently coax her down. Don't finish with her not doing it, but I am sure you know that. You might have to wait until the leash is on to ask for the down, so as not to fail.

I didn't know Maizie was so strong willed ! She has to set a good example for her little brother now ! ;-)


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I call that look "you're not the boss of me"!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Oh, sorry, I should have been more clear--she was on leash. I tried to force her into the down position, which I'm sure is a no no, but I didn't want to let her get away with it. I failed at that :/


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Caddy said:


> I call that look "you're not the boss of me"!


That's exactly it!


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

That sounds so much like a schnauzer. My boy wouldn't do a down once in training class. For an hour on and off the trainers had myself were trying to coax him down, just wouldn't do it. They use positive training methods but even with mild physical interaction he was not going down.

At the same time we were having problems getting sits while waiting to cross the road. It was this time of year turned out the fuss pot didn't like the cold on his bum and tummy that had recently been shaved lol. I got the "Why should I do that look!"

We did stop doing the sits by road side though. White dog, British wet weather, mud in winter..........


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would suspect cold/wet ground, or an environment where Down felt unsafe - I try to avoid asking for behaviours that are likely to be thoroughly uncomfortable. After all, is there any real need for her to do a Down when out on a walk? Would a simple Wait not work as well? And then work on Down when there is a comfortable rug under her feet. Sophy has very decided ideas on what are sensible/silly requests - and I have to admit that she is usually right!


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

This happened while showing my terrier-X in rally obedience. I ended up retraining 'down' as 'drop,' acting really excited and making exaggerated motions. She is not particularly treat motivated, but I needed this behavior if we were to continue in rally, and being excited for a quick drop seemed to work,. Now when I play 'tricks for treats' with both dogs, my spoo responds immediately to 'down' (for now) but my older girl hesitates until I change the command to 'drop.'


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

They can be frustrating sometimes, yes? Since we are in California, and it is not cold yet I don't think the weather is a factor in her disinterest in performing a down. 

I think what I would try if it were Axel, is to scale back to working on the behavior in less distracting, home environment and firm it up, then try it again while out on a walk. Axel isn't very food motivated, so I wait until he is hungry and use yummy cheese and a clicker to train the behavior. Do that a few times a day in short sessions and then take it to the new location (on the walk). I am not sure if this would work with Maizie, but it's what I do with Ax.

All that being said, she is still young, and maybe just was having an off day!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you all for the ideas and tips! I am practicing for rally, which is why I need the down. Since I've had the puppy at home, her training has taken a back seat, as it's very hard to train her with him underfoot. But, I can see that we need to take a few steps back and train at home with clicker and treats.


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Oh Boy!! you are going to do Rally?? I cant wait to hear about your competition days . Rally is so fun since you can talk to them while going through the course. 

I have Axel signed up for beginner novice at the poodle specialty next week and it will be weird not to be able to talk and encourage him. I dont have high hopes! 

Looking forward to hearing about Maizie's Rally triumphs


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm sure you two will kill it! Is that the show in Pleasanton?


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

If she is refusing to do a down at home too even with treats, then I would maybe have her seen by a chiropractor. Just to make sure the position of down while looking up at you isn't uncomfortable for her.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> Maizie has always been a challenging girl because she is extremely strong-willed. I've always used positive reinforcement training. However, now I'm considering upping the ante if necessary.
> 
> Tonight I took her for a walk and practiced basic commands. She absolutely refused to do a down. She has never liked them, but can usually be coaxed without treats. She just stared at me, like "I don't have to." How would you handle this?
> 
> When we got home, she was wild in the backyard and is going crazy indoors as I type, skating on a paper plate. I thought mental work was tiring to them. Help! LOL


I wouldn't try and force her. How are you trying to get her to down? Are you luring her still? Have you moved on from the lure? I would try going back to basics and luring her down and clicking and treating as if you were teaching a new skill.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Have you tried giving her a command for something that she always does? For example Babykins always sits on command or comes to heel - if she is being wilful, I start with something like that before asking for something she isn't fond of doing - I find it helps get her concentrated on me and "training".


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

bigpoodleperson said:


> If she is refusing to do a down at home too even with treats, then I would maybe have her seen by a chiropractor. Just to make sure the position of down while looking up at you isn't uncomfortable for her.


I thought maybe it could be a pain issue, so I'll keep that in the back of my mind. 



CharismaticMillie said:


> I wouldn't try and force her. How are you trying to get her to down? Are you luring her still? Have you moved on from the lure? I would try going back to basics and luring her down and clicking and treating as if you were teaching a new skill.


I do still have to lure her. When that didn't work (without a treat), I tried pulling her legs (gently!) so she would understand what I was asking for. But she just reared up!



Skylar said:


> Have you tried giving her a command for something that she always does? For example Babykins always sits on command or comes to heel - if she is being wilful, I start with something like that before asking for something she isn't fond of doing - I find it helps get her concentrated on me and "training".


Yes, I started with sit and watch me. 

Appreciate your help--thank you


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yeah....I'd skip the leg pulling. Not because there is anything wrong with doing it, but because, in general, if you are physically putting her into position she is going to learn the behavior slower than if she is putting herself into position. Sort of like how if someone does something for you, you don't learn as well as if you just try it out yourself, and then get some feedback.

So, if luring isn't working, I would try and capture her. It's my least favorite way to teach a down because it requires a LOT of patience, but, at the very least, you could use it to reinforce the position so that maybe she will start to offer it for you. 

So, go in a quiet room where there is nothing going on. When she lays down, click and treat. Then break it off and move around a little. When she lays down, click and treat, etc. 

If you're wanting to train a competition down, it's a little more important to lure her into position so that you can reward correct positioning rather than any old down. So that's you're choice. If you want to stick with luring, maybe try a higher value reward? Are you pushing the treat down in between her front legs? Be patient, down often seems to be the more difficult of the basic skills to teach. Maybe post a video of what you have going on so far?


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Rory also decided at some point he didn't like doing downs any more. I rewarded when he would lie down on his own, changed the cue from down to drop and asked him for them when playing fetch (his favourite activity) before throwing the ball. Is there something similar you could try for Maiz?

Now about 4 months on he is back to obeying the command, though with some reluctance. I have no idea why as he chooses to lie down at home regularly. They like testing us!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Maizie isn't really food motivated at all, but she sure loves her ball, so I could try that. I'd be a little embarrassed to put myself in a video, but if it helps Maiz, I may do that


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Attention attention and more attention work. A dog that will give you their absolute devoted 100% focused attention will do the other things you tell (not ask) it to do as long as they understand what it means. I would do focus work and then work on the specific things like position work, loose leash and other things you need for an event like rally novice.

You are in the rock and a hard place situation of having her nose a little out of joint by having to give up some of her time to Frosty. Although Lily was never mean to Javelin or outwardly acted like she was mad at him joining the house, she basically just ignored him as best she could for many weeks to tell me she was not thrilled with him being here. Also Maizie is still an adolescent (which is how I would characterize and spoo younger than 2+ years old) and as you have said along the way you find her to be willful. You need her to understand she is not allowed to choose when to listen to you or when to choose to do what you tell her. I know the chances of you wanting to do this are slim to none, but I would put a pinch collar on her. If used properly a pinch collar will allow her to understand that there are consequences to not following orders. You are free of course to use the tools you feel comfortable with and not to use ones you don't like. 

I don't mean to sound like we are sending her to a military boarding school, but I think a lot of us who have deep affection for our dogs are too soft in making it clear what we expect of them. We had a conversation along these lines about Lily failing signals because she lacks the understanding that there is no choice about doing them. The fault is mine for not being consistent about there being a consequence to not correcting her with information about what is required when she failed, but instead feeling badly for her when she failed.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Thank you, Catherine. I am actually totally open to putting her in a pinch collar. I tried less aversive techniques and it isn't working; so on to plan B if back to basics training doesn't work out. This adolescent needs discipline! On a very positive note, she doesn't run away from me when she's loose in the yard, and she has learned to trade or even drop objects she shouldn't have.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I talked somewhere (maybe Javelin's Road to Ring Ready) recently about how to get a dog used to a pinch collar before having it go live. If you do decide you are going to use one do the early preparation and she will do just fine with it and she will get her good manners back because she will tell herself when she doesn't like how it feels (more annoying in my mind than anything else from having wrapped one on my arm and applying pressure).

I used pinch collars to get Lily to collect her head for heeling and Javelin's heeling also is benefiting from using one. They are way better than unlimited slip collars. My current beginner class has a couple who came in with a very unruly 6 month old lab on a choke chain. Within the first two minutes I was talking to the husband he yanked the dog so hard so many times with no other outcome than the poor thing gagging that I ended up interrupting myself to lecture him about what he was doing and I forbade them to ever come to class with that dog on that collar. They are now using a pinch collar and the pup is making progress.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Hmmmm....I don't have a problem with pinch collars, but I wouldn't use one for teaching down. If your dog was emotionally/mentally comfortable with doing what you're asking, she'd be doing a down. In my personal opinion, a pinch collar really doesn't have a place in teaching down. It's best used, in my opinion, for heeling and attention.

I would revisit your luring technique. If you're using a valuable reward and she truly understand what you want, she's going to do it for you. A little bit of patience goes a long way.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Dogs do things that work. There also has to be motivation to do something. Maizie has lost her motivation. (unless there's something hurting her) Think...what can I do to increase that motivation. What have I been doing that isn't motivating enough? Is it the same ole' treat? The same kind of cue or thing that precedes trying to do a down? Maybe it's time to change things up a little, turn the down into something that's a far cry different from any other skill she is learning or doing. 

When a dog I'm working with, be it my own or back when I was training, sometimes this would come up...it even came up with my horses sometimes. They can flat out get stale. With the horses, we called it "sour." They're bored. You'll need to change things up. Try a new location, but without too many distractions. Try making it a game...a _really_ fun, super jazzed up, lively game. 

Get her moving, use a squeaky toy and suddenly, stop and ask for a sit, then ruffle her neck and zoom again, stopping, turning and make some more turns, then a sit, then stand, then run again, use a squeaky toy and lure her suddenly and swiftly into a down. Treat. Let her play with a rope toy in between. Then a sit, stand, sit, down, zoom again, do another trick she likes...shake hands, touch a target. (get a wooden spoon with a dab of peanut butter on it and teach her to touch)...do a little heeling practice for 15 feet or so, then something else. 

When luring, do not lure more than about 3 times. That can also become part of the cue. You want to fade that lure into a motion that is more and more subtle and replace with the cue you want to use forever, like your verbal cue and/or a small, subtle hand signal.

In other words, this is a game. She is going to do all kinds of things she likes to do that _are _rewarding and you're going to sneak in a down in there a couple of tries. Instead of dwelling, forcing, pushing, getting into a struggle, try pairing that down with those other fun things. And use some fantastic, out of this world treat,_ just_ for the down. Have one pocket with mediocre treats for the things she is quite easily motivated to do. Save the bbq'd chicken or rib eye steak for the down.

Anyhow, just a thought. Don't do too many. If she manages to get down even once, stop. Reward big time and do something else. 

I agree that there could be something uncomfortable for her. So make sure there's nothing skeletal going on. Then practice in a few places...somewhere with a soft surface. (at first) Later you can try some other places. 

If that doesn't work, we'll have to think of something else. Never use anything that causes discomfort or force. It just makes the thing you're trying to teach become _more_ unpleasant for the dog. When manipulating a dog into a position, a couple of things can happen. 1) your pushing actually becomes part of the cue and you have to forevermore push. They need to learn to do it themselves. And 2) dogs have a strong opposition reflex. So, if you push one way, reflexively, they push back. And it can hurt their hips and it's just pretty futile.

Another thing you can do is called _capturing_. When she goes and lies down in the house on her own accord, attach the cue ("down.") and have a fantastic treat ready to pop in her mouth. So be on the alert and watch for her when she's about to settle herself into a down.

Don't forget...if you have a clicker or 2nd best...a marker word, that can help too. So, "yesssss!!!!" or a click a split of a second before she is all the way down. So, you're marking the motion of getting into the down. Mark it, then reinforce. She can discern better what behavior you're talking about...because sometimes dogs don't know what it is they're doing that they're being reinforced for. It has to be a behavior that happens often without other same things going on...independent of other things. For another example: Say a dog is suppose to be walking nicely on a loose leash. He is also looking to the left, licking his lips, the same things are happening around you. The dog takes a few steps nicely and you reward. How is he going to know if you're rewarding that nice walking...or his looking left or licking his lips? Or that treats come when the same old neighbor is out trimming his hedge? This target behavior has to happen several times in all kinds of scenarios where he's not licking his lips or looking left, where the same external cues aren't happening. Just this walking nicely has to be consistently the thing that is happening before he can make a connection.

So, dogs get yanked, scolded, shocked because they're not walking nicely on a loose leash. But they're probably not trained yet. They haven't had enough history of reinforcement of this independent behavior yet. 

Anyhow, enough of this rambling. You will get there with Maizie. She'll get so she loves learning all kinds of stuff and won't be "stubborn" as she finds out how very fun, motivating and rewarding it is and as soon as she is positive about what it is you're asking for. (yes, asking, not telling) lol. You are partners and do things for each other. She can give you a down. You have the Porterhouse steak. haha.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Hmmmm....I don't have a problem with pinch collars, but I wouldn't use one for teaching down. If your dog was emotionally/mentally comfortable with doing what you're asking, she'd be doing a down. In my personal opinion, a pinch collar really doesn't have a place in teaching down. It's best used, in my opinion, for heeling and attention.
> 
> I would revisit your luring technique. If you're using a valuable reward and she truly understand what you want, she's going to do it for you. A little bit of patience goes a long way.



Millie I wouldn't use a pinch collar to teach a down either, but to help Maizie re-find her attentiveness by using it along with a lot of focused attention activities and just let the pinch do the work of making her think about where her attention should be if she loses focus. Once her focus improves her down will come back.

And those people who think that the way to use a pinch collar is by jerking the dog around on it they don't know how to (and shouldn't) use one.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lily cd re said:


> Millie I wouldn't use a pinch collar to teach a down either, but to help Maizie re-find her attentiveness by using it along with a lot of focused attention activities and just let the pinch do the work of making her think about where her attention should be if she loses focus. Once her focus improves her down will come back.
> 
> And those people who think that the way to use a pinch collar is by jerking the dog around on it they don't know how to (and shouldn't) use one.


Maybe.....but I think it depends on why she is having an issue with the down. It's such a basic skill, that if a dog is not going down when being lured, I am concerned that there is a more basic issue that should be addressed and I doubt a prong is going to be helpful. I'm just not sure this is an attention/focus issue...Although, who knows, I haven't seen what's going on here! But, if the dog can't be lured down, and isn't responding to the down cue, I feel pretty comfortable saying the dog doesn't truly understand the behavior.

I'm also speaking from experience, having found down to be one of the more challenging things for a lot of dogs, especially softer temperament ones. I think that having some patience, and revisiting how to motivate the dog and how to clarify to the dog what a down is where I would personally start.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would agree with the last part of what you said about understanding or not if the dog can't be lured to a position or behavior it presumably knows. One thing I would keep in mind for Maizie is that there is a new puppy in the home, so a lot has changed in her world recently. She has passed both the CGC and the CGCA tests so we know she can follow orders and knows the behaviors related to the CGC/CGCA. My next thing I would be thinking about is whether her non-responsiveness coincides with Frosty arriving. If that is the case then focus/attention work whether using a clicker, treats or a pinch collar are what I would focus on.

Last summer when I brought Javelin home, Lily spent at least 6-8 weeks telling me she didn't like the idea of him being part of the family by ignoring me and him as much as possible.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A new puppy in the home I would think should be treated no differently from moving a behavior from in the house, to the backyard, to a public place. When you ask for the behavior in a more distracting environment, they usually go backwards a little and you have to sort of take a few steps back. If she's a little unhappy or emotionally distracted about a new dog in the house, I'm not sure a pinch collar is the approach I'd take. I'd want to just back up and see how fun and positive I could make training for her, so that she wants to engage.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I think perhaps I've underestimated how Frosty has impacted Maizie's world. She is a very sensitive dog, even though she's stubborn and strong-willed. She definitely knows what I'm asking for--she's just choosing not to do it. I am really having trouble right now managing each individual dog's training. And right now in the puppy phase with Frosty, it's all about survival (house training, getting enough sleep, feeding, grooming, watching like a hawk for potential dangers inside and out, etc.).


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

zooeysmom said:


> I think perhaps I've underestimated how Frosty has impacted Maizie's world. She is a very sensitive dog, even though she's stubborn and strong-willed. She definitely knows what I'm asking for--she's just choosing not to do it. I am really having trouble right now managing each individual dog's training. And right now in the puppy phase with Frosty, it's all about survival (house training, getting enough sleep, feeding, grooming, watching like a hawk for potential dangers inside and out, etc.).


I agree that a lot of this has to do with adding Frosty to the family. There is a light at the end of the tunnel though. As I think I said earlier here Lily really worked very hard to tell me many ways and many times she was none too happy about Javelin being a new family member for a couple of months. Her strategy was to ignore him (being anthropomorphic here, but something like if I do not acknowledge him, he doesn't really exist). 

This morning I was relaxing in the recliner part of our sofa. Lily was lying on the sofa belly up with her head on my lap. From my other side Javelin had his front end across my lap and they were play wrestling and biting, all very quiet and very proper poodle play! The only scary part was waiting to get whacked in the face. Once they got a little too animated I chased them both away to preserve my glasses and my dental work.

ZM I would make sure you make sure you have Maizie only training times and do things that you know she loves as frequent breaks (ball, tug) and I am sure you will get back in sync with her. Use your toolbox creatively!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> This morning I was relaxing in the recliner part of our sofa. Lily was lying on the sofa belly up with her head on my lap. From my other side Javelin had his front end across my lap and they were play wrestling and biting, all very quiet and very proper poodle play! The only scary part was waiting to get whacked in the face. Once they got a little too animated I chased them both away to preserve my glasses and my dental work.


That is so cute! I know exactly what you mean about that poodle play escalating--watch out! 

Thank you for the support


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> I think perhaps I've underestimated how Frosty has impacted Maizie's world. She is a very sensitive dog, even though she's stubborn and strong-willed. She definitely knows what I'm asking for--she's just choosing not to do it. I am really having trouble right now managing each individual dog's training. And right now in the puppy phase with Frosty, it's all about survival (house training, getting enough sleep, feeding, grooming, watching like a hawk for potential dangers inside and out, etc.).


Some food for thought on "stubborn" as it applies to dogs.  https://nancytanner.com/2016/07/07/is-there-really-such-a-thing-as-a-stubborn-dog/


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Good article. I agree. That is why I usually put "stubborn" in quotes. 

We talk about tools; various types of collars and harnesses, clickers, treats. There are exercises that are tools, like teaching eye contact and that's a good booster so to speak. But I think the most important tool, the most fundamental is the relationship we have with our dogs. We must set the stage so the dog wants nothing more in the world than to engage with us and focus and be willing to try new things. This is what makes me so dead set against the use of things that cause pain or discomfort such as prong collars, force, demanding etc. I think it erodes the relationship, if not by much, then often by a tiny bit and even that, imo, isn't conducive to that extreme engagement and interest we're looking for. We need to set the dog _and_ environment up so that_ he _chooses what we want him to choose, so that he loves training and complying (but he has to know what it is we want) I try to avoid using the "do this or else." _Do this or you'll get poked or pinched._ This is what I like about Kikopup's methods. She is a good trainer and handles all kinds of training tasks with great finesse. I really like her videos and way of doing things. 

Remember, you don't have to get the whole behavior in order to reinforce. Break things down into smaller steps. You can reinforce approximations...get a partial behavior going, reinforce, then withhold the reward and ask for a little bit more, then reward that. (free shaping) 

Here are a couple of links that might help. The first one says teaching stay. But it will help you with down as well. 












Mind you...this is not to say that I find using a prong collar right is animal abuse. I use to use one with my Doberman at first when he was such a puller and dog reactive. He was 90 lbs of pure muscle. But I found he was getting ouchied when in the presence of another dog and it was making his reactivity worse. So I didn't use it anymore. I just think there are better ways to get compliance.

Have you read Culture Clash? That's a useful book I think you'd like. 

You'll get there. Maizie is still young and probably easily distracted. From a multiple dog owner's standpoint, be sure you give her plenty of one on one time, not just training but a walk with just you two or an outing in the car. One thing about having two young dogs at the same time is that it takes a lot of time...one thing for one pup, one for the other pup, one thing for the older dog. They have to take turns and then there are some instances they can do together too. (We both have 3 and that's what I've really noticed...it's lots of work when getting some training and relationship building in place) Best wishes to you Zooeysmom. She'll get the down going...take your time.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Yeah, I've read all of those books, watched those videos, yada yada. I know one is not supposed to "anthropomorphize" but I have my own opinion that dogs CAN be stubborn. I guess none of you have ever had one like Maizie. If you'd like to come work with her, I'll pay for your ticket


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

talk is talk, not data and certainly not proof. some talk, like the article cited by charismatic millie, can be interesting if it opens people up to a different idea. in the end, though, dogs do have different personalities, as do people. you have to find your way to living with each other in reasonable harmony and mutual satisfaction. the responsibility of the human to be both humane and kind exists because the human chose to bring the dog into his/her home. that being said, not everyone gets to where they want to be by the same road - it may not even be possible for that to happen, given the fact of individuality. and different roads do not mean one is not being humane and kind. to insist otherwise is close-minded and bullying.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> I guess none of you have ever had one like Maizie. If you'd like to come work with her, I'll pay for your ticket


Ooooooh. You should meet my girl.  I think most people would call her quite stubborn, although I personally agree with the article I linked above as far as stubbornness and dogs.. She's a sensitive girl, and can be very insistent when she doesn't want to do something. And I speak from experience on the downs.  I probably have many a video I could share with you of my trying to teach her down. By the way, she now has a darling little foldback down. But downs can be a challenge for dogs who lack confidence, or for dogs if they are going through a period of lacking confidence.

And....I'd totally love to work with Maizie! <3 Let me know if are ever in St. Louis!!!!!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Zooey'smom...I think the word, "stubborn" is the clincher here. What is stubborn? Not doing something that we want someone else to do, right? So in that sense, yeah, they can be stubborn. But the reason or motivation that drives it may be a little varied. The motivation isn't there _to_ do it and it_ is_ there to not do it. So the trick is to discover what motivation we can supply the dog so that he _does_ want to do it. That can be a puzzle sometimes. So, you know your dog best. You can figure out what it is she loves best and use it to your advantage. And I bet if you make a few adjustments to the environment, that could help too. 

I agree...down can be a hard one for lots of dogs. They're being put into a vulnerable position often, to their way of thinking. So, use lots of capturing when you can. And maybe get her tired out on a long walk and romp and then maybe she'll look forward to lying down. haha.

I didn't realize you had already read the books and seen the videos. Have you tried any games/tricks where she has to crawl? I taught my Doberman to make a really nice bow just by capturing. I wasn't in a hurry, so it happened over time. He'd stretch...you know how they stick their bums up in the air and go down with their chests? Well, every time he did that I'd make a flourishing, sweeping movement with my arm and sort of bow myself, and inserted the word, "bow" and praised him. (I didn't always have a treat ready of course because I wasn't actively setting up a situation) Anyhow, over time, the cue word was able to elicit the bow. It was a cute little trick.

Soooooo....you might come up with some little trick that gets her close to a down position and free shape that. Sometimes they'll sort of scoot or crawl which can be a trick in itself. Then at the end, they'll lower their haunches into a down because it's sort of tiring. Then you can mark it. Make it a game so she doesn't know you're asking for a down if you feel she's resistant to that specifically. Even something close to a down you can reward and make fun. This way there's no power struggle or obvious attempt at making her lie down. 

Maybe, in the end, if you still have no success with this one, you can just work more on sit. lol. She could be a master sitter and lie down when she wants to lie down. 

Did you see anybody bullying you? Wtf? :crazy:


I had a little trouble with Matisse with the down at first. He'd plop lighting quick into a down when I motioned to him. His little paws, his whole legs would slap the floor enthusiastically and he was so very pleased with himself. But the trouble was, he would only stay there for like one half a second. Then he'd get up again. It was so fast, I couldn't get a "yesss!" in there and treat him. lol. So That was tricky. I used a little capturing. (when he'd lie down anyhow) And I just had to get really quick and get that marker in there, then..........over time, was able to _very_ gradually increase the duration. So at first, one might say he was stubborn because he wouldn't stay put. But the trouble was, he wasn't getting any reinforcement for staying put. There was nothing in it for him. (from HIS viewpoint) Once there was, and once he knew what I was after, he had no reason not to do it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Does anyone else have a hoverdog? Poppy goes into a Down, but is so desperate for me to notice how beautifully she has done it, and to reward it appropriately, that she practically levitates her whole body an inch or two off the ground. We use Down a lot as part of Ready, Steady games, so it often means something esciting is about to happen!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You can also teach a back up down (essentially crawl backwards) to put a fun concept onto a down. I sometimes do drop (down from stand) and release to a spin which is a good stress releaser alternating with each other to keep my drop fresh and fun. So spin drop spin drop spin drop...

You still do have to figure out why Maizie doesn't understand that down means lie down right now the first time I tell you to do it (and the same is true for any behavior for any dog. 

While I want to know that the dog understands the order (i.e. really knows what it is being told to do) I will apply a correction to tell the dog there is no choice. For example if Lily is on the drop in the utility signals and then misses the sit because her attention wandered I tell her to look at me as I walk in. When I get there I break her off the drop and reset her for the drop, give her the drop signal and staying close I give the sit signal. This time if she doesn't sit I walk in and bump the tow of one shoe against the front of her toes, not stepping on her but giving a corrective signal that she needs to do the sit. To correct no drop I would probably tap her on the head lightly while I show her that she should be bringing her body to the drop. Those are instructive corrections that are gentle enough to be very humane, but meaningful to the dog. There is no jerking, yanking, yelling or anger. It is done calmly but purposefully.

While I want those orders to be meaningful and followed 100% reliably for performance sports, there is a bigger picture that is very important which is real life emergencies. While I want a really reliable recall, I also expect really reliable stationary responses to orders given at a distance. I would much rather tell a dog to down than to recall it across a busy street.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

So, the difference here between Lily and me is that I actually want my dog to know that she has a choice, because she does, and I want her to make the right choice on her own. I do use leash corrections, but never have for a down, and I don't use leash corrections to make my dogs feel like they don't have a choice, but instead to provide them with information to help them know what I want. There isn't anything wrong with Lily's approach, but I am clarifying so that you can understand why we are offering different advice.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

My dogs need to understand that they need to make the right choice because that is what they have been taught. 99.9% of the obedience performance people want their dog to know there is only one correct decision and to make that decision 100% of the time. I think you have misinterpreted me CM, that, or I am a horrible communicator.

Who wants to have a trained utility dog that NQs because it thinks there is an option to do the behavior that they are being told to do, but more importantly who wants to watch their dog killed crossing traffic because they were trying to return to the owner rather than doing the down at distance they were told to do? No brainer on the last part for me.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

good point about your dog's life possibly being at issue. i know when i first got a dog, that was the biggest thing in my mind - socialization and training have to do with being able to live successfully in human society. my biggest fear was that my dog would jump and terrify or knock over a child. then i ran into an adult mortally afraid - and i do mean mortally - of dogs and had to lead my mini-size lowchen away. fortunately my dog, besides being leashed, was not the kind interested in running towards people or that woman might have had a heart attack. i have never really seen that degree of fear of dogs before.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I have gotten _the_ most reliable stays and recalls from dogs by teaching them there is only one choice. _They_ choose it because it's the only one that works, the only one that pays off. The information they get is that this works, the other one doesn't work. (because the unwanted choice is prevented in the first place in most cases...or where possible from being able to be practiced) Sometimes the mistake is made of asking for too much too soon and not working up with baby steps, making it easy for the dog to comply. (not saying this to you Zooeysmom...just in general. I know you've tried so many things) 

I think some of the most reliable behaviors are those that are slowly developed over some time, from the "inside out" so to speak, trying to set up the training situation in such a way the dog can't refuse. Make it easy as possible for them to get even part of the behavior right...lots of awesome reinforcement. Free shaping with a clicker is usually so helpful. Any time I've tried to get a behavior going quickly...they usually mess up and gosh darn it...did it wrong. Now they just learned that doing it wrong is one of the possible choices. If I broke the behavior into baby steps and just one little step is all they have to do, they tend to do it right. And viola`! It worked. They get rewarded and we can up the ante one more baby step. And they like that. 

My Doberman had the most spot on, immediate drop on recall, or just a down from a loooooong distance (150-200 feet away) and stay put. Every time, on stimulus control. This was for practical usage, not for a judge in a class. I lived in the wilderness and my dogs had to be obedient. I had lots of land and sometimes a bear or another dog might wander in and my dogs had to obey me. My Dobe was chasing a dog that was on our property once and that's when that drop to a down was so useful. I was standing on my porch a couple hundred feet away from the pasture where he was. We hiked all the time and you can't have a dog running after the wild life. 

My Poodles are a work in progress. We're not there yet with them. They're a little stubborn compared to my Dobe. :lol: Actually, they have a stupendous recall and stay behind the threshold when the door is opened and I go out of sight. Really getting there with that but not in all scenarios, not on stimulus control yet. 

I do sometimes, not often, have a situation where I need to insert a no reward marker. "Woops, nope...that isn't it." And they know they just lost their chance to earn a reward and they are replaced and we try again. Pretty soon they figure out which thing doesn't work and which thing does. And these Poodles are quick! Holy moly!

Anyhow, I don't partake in formal obedience anymore but it is imperative that my dogs learn to be reliably obedient in the life saving skills and where it makes them more pleasant companions to live with. That's what I care about...not whether they're watching me the whole time they're heeling, not whether they sit with a tuck, but that they are engaged and happy to work with me. And if Maizie has a particular difficulty with lying down on cue, you might get there with a lot of capturing or she may get onto it when she's a little older and more mature and more use to learning. I think learning_ how_ _to_ learn is a big deal. Or you might decide to have her do something else that works all right for your purposes instead of a down. It's all about training to fit your lifestyle, your desires imo.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

If there is only one choice there is no choice and no decision making on the part of the dog however you get to that point. I think several of us have really been saying the same core things but from a different approach angle. At this point, I for one, think it is time to let ZM sort out what has been suggested to her and go use the ideas she likes to get the really reliable down back!

ZM ask again if you need additional ideas. Happy training, go let Maizie know you are "the decider" and that a new wonderful part of her life has begun with the arrival of her baby brother (even if she doesn't believe you just yet).


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Lily, I agree with you that 99% of performance obedience people want their dog to know that there is only one correct decision. What I want is for my dog to choose, reliably, to make the desired decision because she wants to, not because she has to. The end result is the same, the reliability is the same, but we get there a different way. And one way isn't better than the other, and which path you choose has a lot to do with various factors including the specific dog. 

There are some situations that I might communicate to them that they have no other choice, but as a general rule, in as many circumstances as I can, I want my dogs to choose the desired behavior because they actually want to, and not because they have to. 

Understanding that should help you understand where I come from in my comments.  I have always believed in the importance of choice, and its empowerment in learning, from my time as an elementary teacher to my interactions with my various dogs. 

I personally believe that with some dogs, letting them make the right choice because I have shaped them to want to make that choice is as strong if not stronger than communicating to them that they need to make that choice because I said they have to.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Lily, I agree with you that 99% of performance obedience people want their dog to know that there is only one correct decision. What I want is for my dog to choose, reliably, to make the desired decision because she wants to, not because she has to. The end result is the same, the reliability is the same, but we get there a different way. And one way isn't better than the other, and which path you choose has a lot to do with various factors including the specific dog.
> 
> There are some situations that I might communicate to them that they have no other choice, but as a general rule, in as many circumstances as I can, I want my dogs to choose the desired behavior because they actually want to, and not because they have to.
> 
> ...





> There are some situations that I might communicate to them that they have no other choice, but as a general rule, in as many circumstances as I can, I want my dogs to choose the desired behavior because they actually want to, and not because they have to.


I absolutely agree with this. I think it might make for more reliable, longer lasting behavior with fewer regressions. There are indeed two (or more) choices. Choose to walk through the opened door (the one that works) or choose to walk _into_ the closed door. lol. Once they get use to choosing to go through the opened door, they walk through opened doors more often. They learn how to learn better. They learn what makes us "click." And I think they watch us more closely for cues. I think it makes them smarter actually...to have to figure it out.


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