# What's your opinion?



## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

I'm curious what you all think - if you take your standard poodle (or any poodle) in for a groom to a groomer you've used before and been happy with; and you tell the groomer you want him cut short because with all the rain, he keeps getting a mess. (But you've always kept his ears and head long - so that wasn't the part of "short" you were talking about - I even showed a picture). When you come to pick him up, he is COMPLETELY shaved down - head, ears, tail, body. The groomer decided ears and head were matted (although I can imagine there were some, I feel the head and ears could've been saved if the groomer had spent a little time on it - I don't mean excessive, but I think to just shave it all was a quick decision). Anyway - my question is: do you think the groomer should've tried to call me before she made the decision to shave the ears and head? Rather than have me walk in and find the decision made? I paid full price - what I have paid for a nice hair cut in the past - for a #5 all over his body and then his face and feet and a #30.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

PS - Wrigley's pic in my siggie picture is what he looked like after his last nice groom from her. The difference this time, was that we had talked about taking his legs short and going even a bit shorter on the body. Now he looks so odd with his little pin head. I'm afraid how long his ears will take to grow out, based on what you all have said on here.


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

Maybe he moved when she was clipping the head and she had to go shorter-maybe she wasn't listening fully to what you wanted-or else=she really screwed up! Because she certainly should have called you to ask before she did something so extreme as to shave the head and that will take awhile to grow out.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yes I think she should have called to tell you before she just shaved him down.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

yeah, I lost a client by not calling her to let her know her baby was matted a fair bit at the skin and needed shaved, she was shocked, unhappy, and have never seen her again. I feel bad, because I really should have called her to let her know I couldn't de-mat it and it needed to be shaved (previously she'd been fine and I hadn't checked when she came in) if I had have called then she'd have been able to say NO! and if she'd said no, I'd ahve told her to come pick up her dog cos I couldn't groom it. She might have been able to work on the knots at home, or otherwise realised how bad they were and come back agreeing to shave down. Or she might have got pissed and never come back. I lost her as a client anyway for not giving her the chance, and I learned my lesson!!! Always call!!


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

That's the thing, I think had she called me, I probably would've said to go ahead and cut him down, but it would've been my choice. And not to sound cheap, but I was a little confused as to why I paid a price that in the past gave me a nice poodle cut for a shave that doesn't seem like it could've taken nearly the amount of time. Groomers - am I wrong about that part?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yes, she should've called you. But I charge a fee for dogs that are over 50% matted, see it as a speeding ticket in the dog care world. Take care of your dog, and you'll get your dog back how you wanted it. I'm not saying this is the case in your groom, this is just how it is for other dogs that aren't really taken care of at all.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Yes, she should've called, but I think you should give her a chance to make it up to you. I've always groomed my Malt, and will probably groom my Poodle. From what I've heard though, it's not easy to find a groomer you like. Did you tell her you were unhappy?


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

Fluffyspoos - I do understand what you mean as a well combed dog is an incentive to the owner. Wriggs body was a mess as I've had morning sickness for about 8 weeks (all day) and he is LOVING the fall mud. So I did know that about his body (which is why I said that about clipping him short) I just didn't realize his head was - I pet his head and never felt them. He does have really course tight curl, so I wonder if what I thought was his scalp was maybe a knot? I don't know. I WILL make sure that as it grows - I've got it combed from now on though.
Harleychik - no I didn't tell her. I honestly wasn't sure if I was in the right or in the wrong - so I thought I'd run it by you guys and then know from now on to be VERY specific. I think if you can groom yours the way you like - I would totally encourage that. Our groomer situation here is a nightmare. One groomer I called never even returned my call (I found out from someone else that she if full and not taking new customers...fine, but I wish she would either call me and tell me or leave that on her answering machine). The other two groomers I had used before BOTH have broken arms. (And again - machines that don't tell you. The machines are just so full that you can't leave a message...I found that out through my current groomer). I will go back to this girl - I do like her work. I'll just make sure to be clear. But everytime I look at Wrigley, I can't help but wince. Todd's Moose wears this haircut MUCH better.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Tell you were unhappy and why. Give her a chance to make it right and explain herself. It's possible she may give you a discount and if not, at least you got it off your chest.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Is it possible that she just misunderstood what you wanted, you said you showed her a picture but if you continued to say 'short, short, short' she may have for whatever reason read between the lines and determined that you wanted topknot and ears short too. Another question for you is are you sure your groomer offers dematting services? I for one do not, if he's matt tuff he's shaved. Sometimes I'll dematt heads/ears/tails once or twice but if they keep comming back matted they come off. Now here by dematting I mean I dematt slightly matted coat, not matted to the skin coat, that is never an option with me. From the way you worded your post I assume his topknot and ears fell into the slightly to moderatly matted range? 
Another point to make is that she may have attempted to save those areas but wirggly won't tolerate it. It might have been a judgement call on the groomer's part, somthing along the lines of 'hey this is obviously hurting I'm going to stop and just clip it". 

All that said, and assuming she understood 100% what you wanted you are right to have expected a phone call. If she didn't understand... well then thats a whole differnt situation. 

As for price, I feel you should have paid full price personaly. I do understand though what you are thinking in figuring this haircut should have been cheaper because as a shave down you figure it would have taken less time. What you are not taking into account is that the haircut you described as being nice, a #5 all over with a #30 FFT IS A SHAVE DOWN. So it would take the same amount of time regaurdless of length of coat, it's still a blade on the body, does that make sense? The topknot doesn't take a decent groomer all that long to trim so really the groomer didn't save much time. Also take into account time your groomer *might* (you'll have to ask her if this was the case to be sure) have spent trying to save the topknot. The only time I charge a client more or less in relation to length of coat is if we are scissoring all over and are going from that scissored all over clip to a blade or gaurd comb. In those cases it certainly DOES take less time and effort. 
Also like a lot of other groomers I know I personaly always charge extra if your dog is matted, I like the speeding ticket example, good one  

Every groomer is differnt so it may just have been a case of miscommunication. We all have our off days as well so maybe she just had a brain fart. Had it been me and I found myself with a dog I didn't realize I couldn't save the topknot on I would most definitly have called, so I agree with you in being upset about that, I would be upset were I in your position.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

Wonder - the #5 body cut/#30 face cut isn't his normal cut - it was the shave down we agreed on this time around. When I brought him in and showed him the picture and said I wanted his body short - she said "I'll do a #5 blade on him" so I said okay. Normally his body wasn't that short and his legs were a bit longer than his body. Like I said - his siggie pic is the work she has done for me before. Once, she said he had a few matts by his feet and so she charged me five extra dollars to get them out. I gladly paid it (and again - when I say matts - I think they would've been mild because I never noticed them - so definitely nothing obvious). And yes Wonder - I would say he had to have been mildly matted like maybe one here or there on his ears because I didn't see anything (not saying there weren't any).
As far as the trim, I think she understood me originally because her comments afterwards were, "I needed to cut his ears - they were matted and I ended up taking his top knot short". So that is were I wondered if she should've called me before making that decision.
I'm glad for all of you who groom because I knew I wanted to hear your slant on it. (And anyone else who responded - I appreciate your opinion).
Once I had a morkie that got shaved without my permission and I definitely called and complained but in this case - I think that I'll not say anything this time simply because we have had good experiences before and I can see how maybe we both just viewed this differently. However, I will ALWAYS be clear from now on about calling me before making any decision to shave.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

Here he is - I had to take these in the house because it has been dark and rainy since I got him cut. I think his head looks funny...(funny as in not cut evenly) And his ears...:doh:


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Just remember the past times she's groomed him, he looked good, yes? She didn't lose her grooming touch, and personally, I think he looks ADORABLE! (But I love poodles always ^^)

Any y'know, it could be worse. I try to do exactly what the owner says, regardless or not the dog comes out retarded. Here's some examples..

The standard poodle below was matted bad, her ears were HORRIBLE! And as fluffy as they look, the hair is actually very thin and even started bleeding from all the brushing. She was a trooper and sat through all of it, and I was rooting for a tip.. that didn't come.








This standard was as matted as the one before, but the owner was very specific about wanting to keep her ears which.. weren't matted at all. I took this picture as an example of what NOT to do when you get your dog groomed. She liked the groom though.. I was embarrassed to have groomed her.








Both these are of one of my toy clients. The first one she was horribly matted, I basically had to take everything off. However, I am a fan of shaved ears and though she looked darling - like a little lamb. The second picture is her later after her ears grew back, but, like always, her body was matted.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Ahh, ok, I misread that then - Sorry. I was just compairing your avatar pic to Jazz who got touched up with a 5 blade today and thought they looked very different length wise, so that exlains a lot. 

Thats a shame then, since it seems pretty obvious that she did understand based on her comments at pickup. The one thing I can say about ears is that even with small matted areas your ability to demat them depends greatly on exactly where the matt is on the ear. Im sure this won't be very well explained but the best I can do is to say that when matts around around the edge of the ear leather you run a higher than normal risk of cutting the ear while you're trying to demat. I've done this twice... to the same dog 
It was a long time ago when I first started grooming, first time I ever cut a dog. If the matting is up in the top layer of hair on the ear or higher up like in the middle of the ear you can usualy brush mild matting out. I HATE finding matts in the lower part of the ear because a lot of the time the ear hair IS being brushed by the owner and the hair is being brushed right over the matts so you don't see them and sometimes owners don't notice them. I make this mistake a few months back with Saleen, hence her short ears. I realized one day that there was a line of matted hair around the bottom edge of both her ears  Darn. 

Oh the bright side, and sorry it isn't brighter, at least the groomer left some of the topknot. It looks like it is longer than the body, even if it's just a little longer, not just straight up shaved. I had a spoo client that got matted enough to be 10 stripped all over, including topknot. She looked like a brown wiem. when we were finished since we only used a 10 on the face, didn't bother to do clean feet at all that day. I wish I had a photo. Nothing poodle like at all I'm afraid. Thankfuly you're groomer didn't do _that_.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

LOL - Those are some great before and afters! I LOVE the head on your first girl - you can't tell her ears are thin. That is the look I figured we would be getting with Wriggs - short body but still "poodle" head and ears.
The second one...WOW - I agree, her ears should've been cut to pull off the "no top knot" but I'm impressed that you did just what the people said.
The last little one...aww - little Gizmo from gremlins ears! 
I'm glad you like him- he just looks so naked in the head...but honestly, we've got nothing but rain here lately so I CAN see the positive that this cut will be much easier to maintain with this weather (and me still feeling yucky). But OOOOOhhhh, I'm so gonna keep his ears and head combed after this! (And his tail - I didn't say much about that but I really miss his full tail)
But you are right - I have liked what she has done before and so I know she can do it again.


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

Wonder - thanks for explaining about the ear fringe. I bet that is what happened since feeling Wriggs ears and looking at him, I had no idea they were matted. What should I do to prevent that. Get a straight comb and pull the upper layer of hair up to make sure I get the brush in there.
You're right, she didn't shave the top knot completely down - so you think that is a good thing? Okay, that makes me feel better. You guys are definitely making me feel better about this all the way around!


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Fluffyspoo, I LOVE that middle picture... I have a mini one of those! I have to go find it. I call that the homey the clown look! 

Ah here it is;
This poor baby gets the spa treatment twice a year, nice  The guy who owned her insisted that I keep the ears. I hope he didnt tell anyone where he had the clip done.. or if he did I hope he mentioned that this is the haircut he insisted on.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

gwtwmum2 said:


> Wonder - thanks for explaining about the ear fringe. I bet that is what happened since feeling Wriggs ears and looking at him, I had no idea they were matted. What should I do to prevent that. Get a straight comb and pull the upper layer of hair up to make sure I get the brush in there.
> You're right, she didn't shave the top knot completely down - so you think that is a good thing? Okay, that makes me feel better. You guys are definitely making me feel better about this all the way around!


YES! It's definitly a GOOD THING that she didn't just buzz the topknot off completely. See the homey pictures above and imagine them without the ear hair. Not to mention it helps a great deal that she is able to do his face and feet with a #30 blade so there is a defined look there. As you can see in the pic I posted just now that sweetie didn't get to look quite like a poodle because her face wasn't shorter than her body, it's a 10 blade. I didn't dare do a shorter blade on a dog like her. So he's got all that in his favor, he still looks like a poodle. I wonder why she ended up going short on his topknot?

As for the ears, what I do.. or in this case wasn't doing, was to take a fine greyhound style comb to the edge of the ear leather. In Jazz's ears I have to use the medium side of the comb since she's got a thicker texture. I also flip the ear over and comb around the edges from the inside... did I make that make sense. Another thing I do is to shave the inside of the ear, in fact I do this on all of my client's poodles as well and it really helps to keep the ears easy to comb. It also thins them out just a bit depending on who you are that may not be what you want? You can't tell the inside is shaved by looking at the dog though, unless you actualy looked inside the ear. Maybe ask your groomer to do that in the future? Same combing can apply to the tail, I always brush and comb out the hair one way (with the growth the first time) and then take the comb and comb the hair either straight up from the skin or against the growth just to make sure that I got all the way down to the skin and got all the matting. I haven't been paying close enough attention to Jazz's tail and had a bit of dematting to do this afternoon when I groomed her.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

WonderPup said:


> Fluffyspoo, I LOVE that middle picture... I have a mini one of those! I have to go find it. I call that the homey the clown look!
> 
> Ah here it is;
> This poor baby gets the spa treatment twice a year, nice  The guy who owned her insisted that I keep the ears. I hope he didnt tell anyone where he had the clip done.. or if he did I hope he mentioned that this is the haircut he insisted on.



Gotta love that ear muff look eh? Hehe!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

WonderPup said:


> I also flip the ear over and comb around the edges from the inside... did I make that make sense.


This is what she means, I did a quick doodle.


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

I'd be upset b/c they didn't call and you had a previous relationship with them so you trusted them. Our groomer states they will only de-mat for so long and then they consider unkind to the dog and will shave it. I hope they'd call first out of courtesy. And I think it would benefit them that you are not shocked when you show up!


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## gwtwmum2 (Sep 14, 2008)

Thanks for the doodle and the tips. 
If you're still reading - I have another question - today I noticed tiny blood marks on my kitchen floor - so after looking Wrigley over, I see it is coming from one of his paw nails. He never bled when I brought him home from the groomer but now two days later that nail is bleeding a little (not huge amounts but enough that he has left faint blood prints on the floor). What would you do? I've heard I can hold flower up to it to try and stop it. 
I wonder if he just got excited and came down to hard on it?


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

AGREE that the groomer should have called you before commencing with the full shave. 

Snoops and I have had some pretty traumatizing experiences with groomers.. as Wonder Pup refers to it "wardrobe malfunction" :lol: love that still! :lol:

Things could have been different if the groomer had consulted with you/advised you before proceeding... nothing worse than walking in expecting apples and then you get oranges! SURPRISE!

As for the nail.. is there anything stuck in there? ie/a burr? twig? something to irritate it, or cause bleeding? can you see if the nail has been cut too close to the quick? yikes blood! :faint:


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## mandi (May 13, 2009)

They all looked 100% better than when they went in. Can't believe the owners let them get that matted.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

My mom's not a groomer by trade, but she does our PWD's and some of her friends as well. She got sick of spending the whole day dematting their dogs so the rule now (which they all know) is if the dog shows with too many mattes then she shaves them down. It's not quite the same thing though, as she does the dogs for free or a minimal cost. As you were paying for your trim and had specified what you wanted I think the groomer should have called you to let you know it wasn't possible and to see what you would like to do.

On another note, I think your guy looks quite cute. But it doesn't matter what I think it's how happy you were with the groom.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

When we kwik a nail at the salon, we put septic powder in it, but corn starch at home should help stop the bleeding.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I think you mean styptic powder. One would hope that it would not get septic.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah, that, lol, I always called quick stop, I don't ever call it by it's real term so I'm a little uneducated there!


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

I've heard of alot of ways to stop nails bleeding, everything from ice to bar soap, I've always used the styptic powder. I do think cornstarch would work well too.

If I had to guess your groomer probably didn't cut into the vein when she cliped the nails. Probably she clipped it close enough though that wrigley was able to irritate the almost exposed vein and cause the bleeding. I've seen that a couple of times. I clip a nail and I am certain it's going to bleed then it doesn't until a few hours later when the dog starts walking around on it. Make sure there isn't a break or a split in it though. My mother's dog used to break his nails all the time and they would bleed. It was annoying to say the least, I'm sure the dog wasnt thrilled about it either lol.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I guess I'm in the minority here, but I think the groomer did a terrible job. Ears get matted, but I think they are actually the easiest part of a poodle to de-matt. A little elbow grease and some silicon spray and I bet she could have worked them out. 

Perhaps she misinterpreted your conversation about "short". Perhaps she simply wasn't listening and only heard "short". I think she should have called. I think she should have worked on the matts and charged you more.

It is going to take a very long time to grow those ears back out.


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## Pine Hollow Poms (Jul 30, 2009)

I would have to agree, its awful that cut. When we get a matted poodle in the shop and the owner wants them taken short my first response is always "You dont want to lose the ears, topknow and tail do you? Because I can usually save those and they are the easiest parts to keep brushed out at home."

And 99% of the time they DO NOT want those parts shaved. If anything gets taken its usually the topknot and the ears and tail are left..which I still think is just as cute. But to cut off his ear and tail hair..if that happened to me it would be unforgivable. It has taken me ages to grow out an ear or a tail. Topknots come back quick, but not a good full ear.

As for the bleeding nail, my poos, even shop ones, get dremmelled very close and I tell everyone about it, and to watch them on pavement or rough surfaces for a week, and if they see any blood to use baby powder, which is high in cornstarch, to stop the bleeding.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I'm not saying it's not hard to demat a dog, it just takes a long time. And if the dog comes in matted over and over, the owner obviously doesn't care to full take care of the dog and it's specific breed needs. You don't get rewarded with a fluffy dog if the only time the dog really gets brushed is when it gets groomed every 6-8 weeks.

It's not always a two way street.

I also add "I can demat him.. but it's going to take a long time and probably be uncomfortable and painful for your dog." That normally gets the owner to lean towards getting the dog shaved. Hair grows back, but I believe the experience will stay with the dog.

Grooming is NOT just about how pretty your dog looks..


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