# when should a toy leave their mom & litter?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it is another of those situations where it depends upon circumstances. If the breeder is taking care to start positive socialising experiences young, and getting vaccination under way, then 12 weeks may be ideal. If the breeder just leaves the litter in a pen all day, 8 - 9 weeks may be better. Pups continue to learn so much from their mothers and littermates, but it may not be easy to take them into a new home just as they hit a fear period. Somewhere between 10 and 12 weeks does seem to be emerging as the norm for average sized small breed pups.


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## Orla (Nov 27, 2012)

fjm said:


> I think it is another of those situations where it depends upon circumstances. If the breeder is taking care to start positive socialising experiences young, and getting vaccination under way, then 12 weeks may be ideal. If the breeder just leaves the litter in a pen all day, 8 - 9 weeks may be better. Pups continue to learn so much from their mothers and littermates, but it may not be easy to take them into a new home just as they hit a fear period. Somewhere between 10 and 12 weeks does seem to be emerging as the norm for average sized small breed pups.


The first fear period ends at 11 weeks old, right?


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## Scully (Sep 30, 2014)

depends if they are being properly socialized. if its a small litter and they are being socialized by the breeder i wouldn't see and issue with waiting. however if its a large litter [meaning they wont have time to properly give attention to each pup] of the breeder is not properly socializing them, ie introducing them to new sights/sounds/textures ect then it is better to get them at 8 weeks. otherwise you are missing out on that critical socialization period from 9-11 weeks where they need to be introduced to as much as possible. 

btw i have had two small breeds as pups one at 7 weeks and one at 8 weeks and not has a issue with either. so it can be done if you take them at 8 weeks if you are prepared to put the work in.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My breeder says that her dams typically nurse the puppies until they are around 11 weeks old, so 12 weeks is the absolute earliest that she will let them go. My Timi was a late starter in the solid food eating and nursed until her mom's milk dried up when she was 13 weeks, and she came home at almost 14 weeks - the most perfectly tempered, "bomb proof" poodle that I could ever wish for! 
In fact all of my Toy Poodles have come home between 13-16 weeks, and without any major issues at all - I would be very anxious/hesitant if a breeder offered me a puppy younger than 12 weeks. 

I know that some people are of the mindset that they want to have a part in shaping their puppy's temperament by getting it young, but I feel quite the opposite - nobody knows how much of the personality is nature, and how much is nurture, so I don't want to take any chances - I want to know that my puppy has the ideal temperament that will be a perfect match for my lifestyle BEFORE I bring them home because I do not trust that the nurturing side of it is the total determination of temperament.

In fact, when I was waiting for Timi, I noted that my breeder (who has over 50 years experience raising toy poodles), just would not even begin to say things about any puppy's temperament until they were at least 10 weeks old, and not until they were 12 weeks old would she really have definitive things to say about their temperaments! But when they did finally get to the point where she would asses their temperaments, wow was she highly accurate - over the years I have gotten three puppies from her sight unseen, but it was like I had known them all of their lives - they were precisely what she said they were, no surprises!

So given my experiences, I would be very hesitant to make a lifetime commitment to a puppy younger than 12 weeks!


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

8 weeks is so young. It's like having a newborn. But, I want a puppy from a breeder at that age _unless_ I know the breeder puts puppy socialization at the top of her list. The lack of socialization I've seen by some breeders is amazing. I know of dogs that have never left the breeder's premises at 10 and 11 MONTHS old.:afraid: Some dogs can overcome this lack of socialization. For others, people just brush their behavior issues off as quirks because they are tiny dogs and it's easy to deal with. Lot's of people laugh at the bad behavior of tiny dogs. I believe a lot of those behavior issues have to do with lack of proper socialization.

pr


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## Raysoflite (Dec 17, 2014)

I've adopted a male toy poodle and he will be just over 10 weeks when he comes home. I originally wanted the breeder to keep him till he was 12 weeks, which is how long my standard was with her breeder, but I recently changed my mind. My current breeder said the rest of my pups litter would be leaving around 10 weeks. She recommended I take him at that time so he can become adjusted to a life with 2 kids and a dog while still very young.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> 8 weeks is so young. It's like having a newborn. But, I want a puppy from a breeder at that age _unless_ I know the breeder puts puppy socialization at the top of her list. The lack of socialization I've seen by some breeders is amazing. I know of dogs that have never left the breeder's premises at 10 and 11 MONTHS old.:afraid: Some dogs can overcome this lack of socialization. For others, people just brush their behavior issues off as quirks because they are tiny dogs and it's easy to deal with. Lot's of people laugh at the bad behavior of tiny dogs. I believe a lot of those behavior issues have to do with lack of proper socialization.
> 
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> pr



But is that nature or nurture, you really can't know if those puppies would have had the same issues if they had left the breeder at 10 weeks instead of 10 months!
I have known three people who got their puppies at 7-9 months old from my breeder, and they couldn't have been happier with the dogs - no socialization issues at all!


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> But is that nature or nurture, you really can't know if those puppies would have had the same issues if they had left the breeder at 10 weeks instead of 10 months!
> I have known three people who got their puppies at 7-9 months old from my breeder, and they couldn't have been happier with the dogs - no socialization issues at all!


That was from your breeder, TP. She either had dogs that had rock solid temperaments or she socialized her puppies (or both). 

pr


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlerunner said:


> That was from your breeder, TP. She either had dogs that had rock solid temperaments or she socialized her puppies (or both).
> 
> 
> 
> pr



I know, whatever she is doing, she is doing it right!
I just meant that the dogs that you know who were at their breeder until an older age and did have socialization issues - you really can't know if that was because of the time that they spent at their breeder or because of the temperaments that they were born with.
I think that we are really saying the same thing, no?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Raysoflite said:


> I've adopted a male toy poodle and he will be just over 10 weeks when he comes home. I originally wanted the breeder to keep him till he was 12 weeks, which is how long my standard was with her breeder, but I recently changed my mind. My current breeder said the rest of my pups litter would be leaving around 10 weeks. She recommended I take him at that time so he can become adjusted to a life with 2 kids and a dog while still very young.



Well my advice would be just don't expect too much from the puppy in terms of training, just look at it as an infant who will do what it will do when it is ready. I think that having your good tempered older dog will help a lot too!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well here's a definitive answer: it depends! we have pf owners who got their toy pups at 6 weeks and owners who got their toy pups at 13 weeks - and evidence of no problems adjusting on both ends of the scale. imo, to some extent the socialization with the litter argument tends to fall apart when the pup is a singleton, which tends to happen more often with toys. ian dunbar thinks that in general pups should go to owners at six weeks. on the other hand, going as a 6-week-old pup to someone without the time to fill in the socialization gap is a no-win as well. 

i would say the real issue is finding a pup that comes from a healthy line with very stable, self-confident temperaments. it seems to me the ability to take life as it comes and still come up a winner is very much tied to those qualities.


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## Naira (Jan 9, 2015)

In the future, over 10 weeks would be the absolute youngest I would want. Over 12-16 weeks is ideal. I've really seen the difference between the puppy I got at 8 weeks (she was very helpless, what's a pup to do at 8 weeks  ) and the puppy I got at 13 weeks (though he was very fearful...probably never left the breeder's house and was frightened meeting people outside for the duration of his life despite extensive socialization --- a lot of that probably had to do w/ his temperament too) vs. Naira..who I got at 11.5 weeks...that had been socialized (though her temperament probably helps too). 

Personality/temperament is #1 to me!!! No matter how cute the dog is you really need to know if you are the right fit for each other


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