# Marking in the house :(



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

There might be some connection, but it is not totally correlated - my friend has 2 male dogs - the older was neutered at 6 months, and the younger has not been neutered, and guess who the marker is - the one who was neutered at 6 months.
Ideally, I would think neuter him and immediately implement a back to basics housebreaking regime - possibly including tethering him to you. It will be a lot of work, but isn't it worth it for 15 years of a dog that you don't have to worry about peeing on your walls and furniture legs?


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## Lplummer52 (Oct 26, 2013)

Why in the world isn't he neutered already, especially after your prior experience? You should go ahead and have it done pronto. Whether he stops marking in the house is a whole other issue. He's already in the habit now, so get out those belly bands. I think four months is the magic age for neutering a dog. Neutering him now, though, may help his behavior around other dogs and humans. In any event you don't want his puppies, right? Get him neutered.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I agree, it is more behavioral. I would act like he is 8 weeks old again. Crate him when you can't watch him EVERY second. That means no running to answer the door/phone, no grabbing a soda out of the fridge, no running to the kitchen to throw something out, unless he is tied to you. Take him out often and make sure his command to go is reinforced. 

I once had a pair of foster pugs that were 7 years old and unneutered and had never been inside a house. They were marking fools! lol....I had them totally, reliably housebroken in just a few weeks by not giving them the opportunity to mark and very slowly allowing them freedom. It can be done but it is a lot of work.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Yup, a heck of a lot of work - but totally worth it!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Lplummer52 said:


> Why in the world isn't he neutered already, especially after your prior experience? You should go ahead and have it done pronto. Whether he stops marking in the house is a whole other issue. He's already in the habit now, so get out those belly bands. I think four months is the magic age for neutering a dog. Neutering him now, though, may help his behavior around other dogs and humans. In any event you don't want his puppies, right? Get him neutered.


I didn't want a super long legged dog from neutering too early. 
There is absolutely NO chance that this dog will EVER make puppies. My 3 other girls have been spayed for years now, there are no dogs around us (we are on a farm), he's never allowed to roam, he's kept on leash in public. Absolutely NO WAY is he going to make puppies happen just because he's still intact.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I don't have any problem with retraining him. I have all the dogs gated into just the kitchen now and they'll be on a schedule again.
Stinkers.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Lplummer52 said:


> Why in the world isn't he neutered already, especially after your prior experience? You should go ahead and have it done pronto. Whether he stops marking in the house is a whole other issue. He's already in the habit now, so get out those belly bands. I think four months is the magic age for neutering a dog. Neutering him now, though, may help his behavior around other dogs and humans. In any event you don't want his puppies, right? Get him neutered.


Most of the thinking nowadays is to wait until at least a year before neutering. The dog needs to develop, and it's better to wait. There is disagreement on this, but I believe you will find most people adhere to doing what is healthiest for the dog and I believe waiting is.


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## Lplummer52 (Oct 26, 2013)

I had a Scottie that was neutered at 4 mos He was the sweetest, smartest, most loyal dog and very calm and easy-going.....not typical of Scottish Terriers in general. He lived for 16 years and his legs were very, very short. I had a Norfolk Terrier stud dog that never marked in the house, but became very aggressive towards puppies and other male dogs as the years went by. We had him neutered at 6 years and it greatly improved his temperament. He died of cancer at 12 years. I grew up with my mother's Miiniature male poodle. In those days (1960s and early 70s) people didn't routinely neuter male dogs. There were also no leash laws and no fence could keep him in. Our yard was fenced. He was an unforgettable, incredibly smart, gorgeous family pet and sired many, many puppies throughout the neighborhood. People would call my mother on the phone and ask if she thought Louie would like to see his puppies. Evidently, they all looked like him no matter what breed the dam was. He was eventually run over in a snow storm at 15 yrs old. He was basically blind and deaf by then and didn't know the car was coming. My mother never really got over his death, but never even considered neutering him. It just wasn't done in those days. We all loved that dog, but his life and ours would have been a lot simpler and happier had we neutered him at a young age. PS....he NEVER, EVER lifted his leg in the house. This marking in the house might be something unrelated to whether or not he is neutered. Anyway, I'm sure all the training advice is correct. I've got my 4-mos old bitch puppy tethered to me right now. Just passing along my experience for what it is worth. Good luck and keep us posted.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Neutered both Charlie and Edison, one day before they turn 7 months old. I don't want to wait and don't have the luxury to retrain them if one or both start marking in the house. That is a nasty habit that could or couldn't be overturn, I just not one to gamble with my pups life and welfare.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Thanks, all. I just don't want to do "the wrong thing." I don't want to cause physical harm to him with neutering at the wrong time. I wanted him to be a good pet, not an obnoxious stud muffin LOL. 

He's miffed about being tethered again, but tough! Neuter appointment is for next Monday and he's just over 9 months. My vet scolded me and said it should be done at exactly 3 months, no sooner, no later. Yikes!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Well, I don't agree with your vet! I am glad you waited as long as you did and find no fault in you neutering him now. It is a personal choice and like you, I had a tough time making a decision as to when was the right time. Misha was done 2 weeks ago tomorrow and got her stitches out yesterday (we did it at home) and I am just glad it is all behind me!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

My minpin was done at 9 months also, and he turned out muscular and masculine and very lovely to look at. So I'm thinking Jack will be fine also. 

Yes, I am looking forward to the stitches being out and this over with  THank goodness neuters are much easier on the dog than spays.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

From what you describe it sure sounds like he has gone though puberty already, and that really is the goal of waiting upon the neuter anyhow - I think that 12 months is simply said as a number that will capture almost all dogs, and is not a definitive number!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

That would be puberty then, right? And the end of growth. So then he's good to go and I'll stop feeling guilty about it. Actually the guilt will stop 10 days post op when I know the incision has healed and he can be a busy body again  

Thanks everyone  You know these guys are our kids, so it's hard putting them through these things.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'd wait and do some more research. Be careful like you are being to prevent marking inside...just like you would with regular potty training. Praise and give a treat when he marks outside on a fence or bush. There is a lot more research going on that indicates that castration does not necessarily improve some of these kinds of behaviors and in fact, may make a dog less secure when they are missing those hormones and some behaviors will not be made better. There are some health problems associated with neutering. At nine months your pup may not be full grown. I'd put off that appointment until you're absolutely sure and at least until he's fully and I mean fully grown. I'll look for some more info too.

http://themodernbark.blogspot.com/2013/05/should-i-neuter-my-dog-benefits-and.html

Neutering and Behavior | Angry Vet

Neuter. Or Not? And When?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

www.vizslacanada.ca/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf · PDF file

Here's something else. Contrary to one of those articles on my last post, I have read a lot of things where they think aggression is seen more in neutered dogs than intact. And this is due to that idea that the reduction of males hormones may make a dog less secure and a target for bullying by certain other dogs. I don't know what kind of science is behind this idea. But anyhow, here's another bunch of info that might be better. It's a pdf file.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Bless you for waiting. The longer we wait to neuter the better for the boy's development. We recommend 12 - 14 months for our puppies, but if he is marking, do what you have to do! I hope it solves your problem!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Thanks for the info. I am going to go ahead and do it, since I used a spay today program, it's paid and appointment set for Monday. 
<shrugs>


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> That would be puberty then, right? And the end of growth. So then he's good to go and I'll stop feeling guilty about it. Actually the guilt will stop 10 days post op when I know the incision has healed and he can be a busy body again
> 
> Thanks everyone  You know these guys are our kids, so it's hard putting them through these things.


Well for girls they say that they are finished growing after their first heat, so I would think it would be the same for boys - just not always as obvious when sexual maturity has occurred - but in this case, it sounds like it is obvious!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

That was my basic guide for my girls as well. They came in season around 11 months for my PWD and 12 for my bichon. He's also humping my bichon and chihuahua when he thinks I'm not looking. so the signs of maturity are there. 

It'll be fine (keep telling myself this!). I do worry about other dog things, like the "right" food and whatnot, it's in my nature LOL.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> That was my basic guide for my girls as well. They came in season around 11 months for my PWD and 12 for my bichon. He's also humping my bichon and chihuahua when he thinks I'm not looking. so the signs of maturity are there.
> 
> It'll be fine (keep telling myself this!). I do worry about other dog things, like the "right" food and whatnot, it's in my nature LOL.


In my experience the best dog Moms are also the biggest worry-warts - it is part of the package!
So though I would like to tell you to relax, it will be fine, I won't because I know that you are too good for that to happen lol!


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> That would be puberty then, right? And the end of growth. So then he's good to go and I'll stop feeling guilty about it. Actually the guilt will stop 10 days post op when I know the incision has healed and he can be a busy body again
> 
> Thanks everyone  You know these guys are our kids, so it's hard putting them through these things.


Absolutely. It is hard to see them going thru this but it is necessity and sounds like puberty came early for your pup. I felt guilty too every time but I tried to tough it out because the pup can smell your fear for him and he end up getting the negative vibe also which is not helping. Fake bravery and in time you won't even recall it ever happened. I would prayed and prayed that the procedure goes well and the incision will be unnoticed in a few weeks. Don't forget the cone.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I'm quite good at fake bravery LOL. This just needs to get past and all will be well.

Taking him out to potty today, he hikes his leg just as HIGH as he can get it, over marks my chi and bichon (girls) pee spots, licks their pee and then chomps his jaw, etc. So those are very 'doggy' behaviors. 
Never intended him for breeding or anything, just want to be doing the right thing. Which, overall I think I am.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Well folks, I cancelled the appointment. I've been reading and reading and the more I read the more I think I should wait. The only people telling me to neuter now are vets and the spay today program. (Ive never been a sheeple and I distrust doctors highly!) 

I've been keeping Jack right near me, crating when I can't keep eyes on him and no more marking so far. It's not a big deal as the house is fitted with baby Gates to keep dogs off carpeted areas anyway. 

I got a lecture from spay today that it will only take him one time getting loose to breed puppies who will all then end up in the shelter getting euthanized! 
I fostered for a rescue, I was a groomer for a shelter and groomed shelter dogs for free and I saw innocent, healthy dogs be euthanized because there are no homes. I GET that! Just because he has testicles doesn't mean he'll make dogs pregnant. I had intact dogs and bitches in the same house when I showed bichons and never had an unintended pregnancy so... 
My 3 acres are completely fenced securely to keep my four pound chi in (and on up to my PWD), but I also supervise all potty trips and have a gravel potty area off the side for quick night time potty trips. He's always on leash in public. I don't think it will happen! 

She continued to guilt me with a story about a"friend" who had euthanized so many innocent dogs one day that she took home a bottle of the solution, wrote a note to her family and then euthanized herself! She just wanted me to be aware what people like me do to innocent pets and the people who have to deal with them at shelters! What!? 

Anyway, not happy with that reaction, but Jacks getting some more time to mature...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Rescue is so important, but sadly attracts so many wackos.
You just do what YOU feel is best for YOUR dog, and let everybody else worry about their own. You know why- YOU are the only one who has to live with the outcome of the choices! 


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

We have an 11.5 year old, unneutered Lab who has never, ever marked in the house. (But if he had, he'd have met the vet the next day.)


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## MaddieB (Aug 14, 2013)

Sounds like my Bennett :[ I'm having the same problem! Except Bennett is a year and 2 months old. We have a 6 month old standard now and I think that made the marking worse. He HAS to pee on Ivan's pee...or on Ivan while he's peeing lol. He also got his face literally shat on from trying to smell Ivan while he was doing his deed...that was interesting when Bennett walked into the room, his face covered in pooh. I will never forget the absolute terror of that day lol. I didn't even know where to begin on washing him haha. Dang dogs...Anyway, I honestly don't think the whole fixing thing has much weight to it. None of my parents dogs back home are fixed and they don't mark the house up at all. I think it's the behavior of the dog. I don't think we'll have a problem with Ivan since he's such a calm puppy. Almost too calm. But Bennett...oooh Bennett was a hyper little thing, and still is half the time. He's an eccentric little bugger that tell you what he wants, when he wants it. So it might just be the personality of the dog that causes them to mark. I'm working with the saaame problem as you and it's definitely frustrating. Especially when Bennett is definitely potty trained, but still marks our house up! It's only certain spots though. I'm going to start watching him waaaay more and praise him more for going outside. Hopefully I start seeing improvement and stop finding random marks on my walls!!!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

MaddieB, you could get a belly band and at least save the indoor furniture from the wiz kid 

Jack has worn his band today (and I praise him up and tell him how special he is for he's the only one with the fancy cummerbund in the whole house! and he wags and wiggles all over LOL) and no pee in the band at all. I've also been confining all the dogs by baby gate in the room I'm in (that is SUCH a pain), and taking them out every 2 hours, and praising them like mad when they pee outside. 

He particularly likes Darby (bichon girl, 12, spayed for years now) and will do the exact same as your Bennet sniffing while they go pee or poo. Or peeing on her while she goes. I have a kennel run where they do most of the potting, but I've started letting Darby out in her own section so she can pee in peace. I think that's half the reason she's been having accidents because ALL the other dogs line up to pee over her spot. 

Dogs are a pain in the butt. I think the smaller they get the harder it is, too. 
One day at a time, or one potty trip at a time, anyway!


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## MaddieB (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm waiting as long as I have to to neuter our boys. It just seems right to me to wait for them to fill out completely. And I don't buy into the whole "aggressive" if they're not neutered thing. My husband and I went home on leave with our two boys and we had 5 MALE dogs all not neutered running around and never had any signs of aggression or any little fights at all. Same with dog parks. I've never had a problem with aggression. I was always told "you have to neuter them or they'll fight"...that makes total sense. Not. I've never seen it. And for the vet to guilt trip you is ridiculous! I always feel that too when I take my boys to the vet and they ask if he's neutered and I always find myself explaining why I don't have them neutered like I have to justify it. There's nothing wrong with not doing it.

We live on a Marine Corps base and they are very strict with you having dogs, always trying to get you to neuter your pets, which yes, there is an importance to getting them neutered for population control. Buuut you should be responsible enough as a pet owner to NOT let your dog have the chance to escape and knock another dog up. If your dog does get another dog pregnant on base, you get a huge fine AND possibly get kicked out of housing. So I think just those threats are enough to make sure the dogs stay confined regardless of being neutered or not.


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## MaddieB (Aug 14, 2013)

What on earth is a belly band and what's it do? Sounds like I need one for the wiz kid (cracked up when I read that lol) and I agree, I think the smaller they are the more terrorizing they are lol. This is my first toy breed EVER. My parents have two minis back home that aren't bad at all, and Ivan our polar bear of a baby standard is calm and such an easier listener...and then there's Bennett...with his stubbornness and craziness. He listens, but does what he wants at the same time haha. I swear I think the smaller they are the smarter they are. The worst part is I KNOW he knows what he's doing! The look on his face when he sees that I found a marking is priceless. I don't even have to say anything, just look at him in that "I wanna throw you across the room" way and he gets submissive and gets very small with his little nub between his cheeks haha. It's so hard to "punish" him when he's so adorable.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

A belly band is a band you put on male dogs. It does not prevent them from peeing, but most of the time they don't and if they do , it is on the band . I used one on my shih tuz whenever we went to a new house for vacation ect. 

I am so glad I have female dogs...LOL


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MaddieB said:


> What on earth is a belly band and what's it do? Sounds like I need one for the wiz kid (cracked up when I read that lol) and I agree, I think the smaller they are the more terrorizing they are lol. This is my first toy breed EVER. My parents have two minis back home that aren't bad at all, and Ivan our polar bear of a baby standard is calm and such an easier listener...and then there's Bennett...with his stubbornness and craziness. He listens, but does what he wants at the same time haha. I swear I think the smaller they are the smarter they are. *The worst part is I KNOW he knows what he's doing! The look on his face when he sees that I found a marking is priceless.* I don't even have to say anything, just look at him in that "I wanna throw you across the room" way and he gets submissive and gets very small with his little nub between his cheeks haha. It's so hard to "punish" him when he's so adorable.


I'm sorry but that is just not how dogs operate. He does not _"know"_ that he's doing something "wrong" in a moral sense. Dogs are amoral and don't have our same values about pee locations or expensive carpets. lol. His look is not that of guilt but because he has experienced your anger or dismay perhaps...in the past, he is submissive, fearful or worried about what will happen, but not all knowing or guilty as far as his marking. They're smart, but they're not_ that_ smart. That is a normal behavior for dogs, in fact most all mammals. You have to do just like you do when you potty train a puppy....constant supervision...no opportunity to pee in the house or use belly bands. No punishment because there is a lot of potential fall-out from punishment when associated with peeing in the house. And loads of praise _AND_ high value treats when he goes outside.

A really, really helpful book to give you the edge on understanding how dogs think and learn is Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. I highly recommend it.

Additionally, before you breed, I recommend that you research more about that too because there's a right way and a wrong way to go about breeding. There's a lot of science that goes into it. Before you bring more puppies into the world, I hope you will do lots of research and find a mentor to help guide you so you have the whole arsenal of info behind you. First, no dog should be bred before 2 years of age. Genetic health testing is needed, temperament, titles in conformation to make sure the structure is fantastic. And there's more than that to know. There are a few very, very knowledgeable, experienced and reputable breeders right here. They'd be a great resource for you.

Good luck!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Jack doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body, I'd be shocked if he ever had an "aggressive" reaction to something, intact or neutered! Now my minpin… he was aggressive prior to neutering and did not change one BIT post neutering. He HATED other intact dogs, would fight them to keep them away from "his" bitches (spayed or not!) and was a turd who peed inside daily. He wore a belly band until he figured out how to slide it off his slick rear by rubbing along the couch. 
Then I made "pee-shirts" which were a vest/belly band combo. They were super cute and he couldn't rub them off in any way! That was such a good idea  People who saw him in his peeshirt thought I just liked to dress him up. 

For Bennett, being 14 months old, I think I'd be ok with neutering him by that point. I think, well obviously I must think 9 months is too early yet! 
His chest is really starting to broaden, and has really nice musculature, hopefully he will grow into his looong legs yet (or is that the latest 'thing' with poodles, way up on leg?).

So for now, belly band/baby gates/tether.

I totally know about military bases! Moved out of one a year ago and man, was I ever frantic about even painting the tiniest mark on the wall, had the carpet and tile steam cleaned, everything was cleaned top to bottom! Phew!


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## MaddieB (Aug 14, 2013)

Oh trust me Poodlebeguiled, I know how dogs "think". Don't take my frustration (and losing my mind over marking) out of context! I've read quite a bit on them and loved reading Cesar Millan's book. Definitely helped in understanding their ways a lot more. I know they don't think exactly like us. However, I do know that they have somewhat of an understanding between "right" and "wrong" from what they've been trained. Like how if I catch him tearing up paper he immediately stops, spits out the chunk in his mouth and runs for a toy instead since he does know that tearing up paper is "wrong" because we have taught him it's a no no...even though he occasionally still does it if he finds an open opportunity which of course is MY fault for having a paper in his reach. Or how if I hear him getting up onto our counter (little acrobat can climb through the kitchen window from our tv room from the back of our couch) and I call his name and go to check and he's trying to quietly and verrrry slowly, like snail pace, sneak back through the window trying not to make his tags jingle lol, he's very smart in that sense. And the punishment he gets for something is a "no" and then baby gated in the dining room, or redirected with a toy or going potty. Never do we do anything aggressive or put him in his kennel since kenneling him as a punishment would take away the whole point of a kennel being HIS happy and safe place. And I can't "punish" him for the markings since I always find them waaay later than when he did them. He'd have no clue what he did wrong if I did. 

I think his marking is a result of us having not kenneled him as a puppy until he was already 9 months old when we got our other dog Ivan. Which is why I believe he had pretty bad separation issues- he starts squeaking and carrying on even if I just leave to take the trash out...that's right on our porch. He's gotten much better and much more calm since kenneling though. It's only been since August that he started getting kenneled, and he loves his kennel, so hopefully with a bit more time and a little more supervision he'll quit his marking days. 

And I realize there is a lot that goes into breeding. My parents bred amazing collies for years so I know there's quite a bit that goes into it. In Bennett's case, if we do end up breeding him it won't be anything for money or show for that matter. Just for family since my siblings are interested in having their own lil Bennetts. Just fun loving, cuddling family pets. And aside from Bennett's marking issue, he is a great, smart, gorgeous little thing. I'm not getting him neutered because I want to be able to have the option of having his off spring for later on. Not a puppy mill. Or a means to make money, but to carry on his sweet disposition and brains since he has a lot of them lol. Maybe too much brains haha. If he is to be bred, all the necessary steps will be taken. 

And if/when that time comes, I'll definitely look into breeders on here! I'm actually interested in finding a dog for my parents since they just lost our beloved Bessie girl that we had rescued years before as a stray. So if you know some names of breeders, send them my way! I'd love to find a perfect match for them to fill the spot that's missing now! :[


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> "Cesar Millan's methods are based on flooding and punishment. The results, though immediate, will be only transitory. His methods are misguided, outmoded, in some cases dangerous, and often inhumane. You would not want to be a dog under his sphere of influence. The sad thing is that the public does not recognize the error of his ways. My college thinks it is a travesty. We've written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years."


Alexandra Semyonova - BEYOND CESAR MILLAN
Dr. Nicholas Dodman - Professor and Head, Section of Animal Behavior, Director of Behavior Clinic, Tufts University - Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine

I urge you to check out this website. On the left is a menu with many experts in the behavior field...people with advanced degrees in animal behavior, whole organizations. If you click on them, you can read what they have to say, what studies have shown...some good science behind their reasoning.

If you want to learn about behavior, how dogs operate, think and learn, I don't recommend looking at Cesar Milan.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Here's another good piece. 




> Bark Blog: More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
> More on Millan: Guest Blog by Jolanta Benal
> 
> The thing about being a dog trainer and behavior consultant who works hard, and continues to work hard, learning as much about the science of dogs as I can—about how they grow, develop, and learn; about their communication and interaction with humans and nonhumans—the thing about studying the science and then having a discussion with a Cesar Millan fan, is that you feel as I imagine a paleontologist feels having a discussion with a creationist. The sense that the other party is living in an alternative reality is a little disorienting. How the heck does someone get to be an expert on a species when he has made no scientific study of it whatever? How does it happen that other people accept his claim to expertise? I don’t mean the fellow has to have a degree, I just mean it would be nice if he gave the impression of having read and understood, say, James Serpell, Karen Overall, Steven Lindsay, or Patricia McConnell. Given his truly weird ideas about dog social behavior, he could use a look at Raymond and Lorna Coppinger, and Roger Abrantes, too.
> ...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It was really brought home to me that my dogs reacted to my behaviour, not guilt about their own, when I spilt a bottle of shampoo all over the bathroom floor and was down on my hands and knees with bucket and cloths, muttering darkly. Both dogs peered in, took one look, and went to wait quietly out of sight in the bedroom. And all I've ever done faced with puddles etc is mutter darkly... or swear more loudly when, as always seems to happen when a dog has an upset tum, I tread in it on the way to the loo in the dark!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Well, Jack's wearing the belly band and there is pee in it at least once a day :2in1: I have him in the same room with me and he is sneaking off to mark things. Obviously the band catches the pee, but now it's becoming a habit. 

SO


I called to set up a neuter appointment. I can't deal with this and he'll just have to grow the way he grows! Hopefully it isn't too late.

The original appointment was for today. I wish I had kept it and not been so afraid. My problem is I don't want to do the "wrong" thing, and I also want to please "everyone" which means I feel like my obedience instructors are going to be upset with me for neutering too soon but I only want a pet, not intact doggy behaviors.

Hopefully it will help!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Like I said before just do what you feel is best for your dog in your life- nobody else walks in your shoes, so nobody can make that choice but you!


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Well, Jack's wearing the belly band and there is pee in it at least once a day :2in1: I have him in the same room with me and he is sneaking off to mark things. Obviously the band catches the pee, but now it's becoming a habit.
> 
> SO
> 
> ...


I completely understand but this is your dog, so do what you feel is best for you and your dog.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

I have been tethering him to me today on a 6' leash. He has NO opportunity to mark anything or pee at all. I crate him when I'm not 100% able to watch him.
It seems a bit "mean" to me to have him tied up, BUT he's near me, I give him toys and things to do, and he's not behind an expen or in a crate. 
I also took the belly band off because I wanted to see if he would attempt to mark in my presence. So far so good.

This is my first time using a tether. Personally, I thought it was going to be a giant pain in the butt, that I'd be tripping over him constantly, but he's very good about watching where I am. Even the human kids have navigated around him pretty well today. 

So how long does a person keep this up? If I give him gradual freedom, perhaps using the belly band to see if he has stopped marking, and just go from there? I used to say I don't trust puppies until they're at least 18 months. And he's half that yet. 

I will say I wish to heck I had known about and used this method with my minpin years ago! Would've solved a lot of issues. 

Thanks for your experiences tethering!


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## Lplummer52 (Oct 26, 2013)

Yeah, works for me. I learned it from this Forum. I forget who suggested it. I use it when I know she is full of energy and I'm not ready to take her for a walk. Stops her from chasing the cat and getting into all kinds of other trouble. If she's chilling out after a walk and just chewing on a Bully Stick, then I leave it off. She has a strong prey drive, so I have a feeling I'll be doing this tethering thing for a long time. You're still going to get him neutered, right?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> I have been tethering him to me today on a 6' leash. He has NO opportunity to mark anything or pee at all. I crate him when I'm not 100% able to watch him.
> It seems a bit "mean" to me to have him tied up, BUT he's near me, I give him toys and things to do, and he's not behind an expen or in a crate.
> I also took the belly band off because I wanted to see if he would attempt to mark in my presence. So far so good.
> 
> ...


I only have female dogs for this reason, but my gut reaction is at least a couple of weeks for a dog to just forget about a bad habit - then of course freedom comes in very slow gradual steps.
Don't feel that it is mean - he is going to earn a lifetime of freedom by going through this!


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

He'll be getting neutered soon. 

I also have a feeling the tether is long-term, but hopefully it's worth it.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Jazz marked in the house one time and I caught him doing it. He was scolded and did not do it again. I don't think you are going to have a long term issue. Jazz is not neutered. They go through that when they first start marking. They think of it differently than peeing and have to be told it is wrong to mark in the house. I really think you can let him loose. If you can catch him starting to lift his leg, that is the best way to train him not to do it in the house.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

outwest said:


> Jazz marked in the house one time and I caught him doing it. He was scolded and did not do it again. I don't think you are going to have a long term issue. Jazz is not neutered. They go through that when they first start marking. They think of it differently than peeing and have to be told it is wrong to mark in the house. I really think you can let him loose. If you can catch him starting to lift his leg, that is the best way to train him not to do it in the house.


I can think of somebody who is going to disagree with you Outwest, but want to say that I agree with you very much - catching them doing the wrong thing is worth it's weight in gold!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> catching them doing the wrong thing is worth it's weight in gold!


So what's it worth to catch them doing the_ right_ thing, diamonds and rubies? :becky:


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> So what's it worth to catch them doing the_ right_ thing, diamonds and rubies? :becky:


Yup - the canine equivalent of diamonds and rubies is what they earn lol!!


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

All of my male dog's start trying to mark inside at 9 months of age. IMO it's just sexual maturity. My male Bouvier tried it was a female Dobie came to visit. He smelled her tushie and when to mark my dining table. I bellowed no mid stream and hauled him outside then praised him for finishing outside. My male SPoo tried it an 10 months right in front of me and a quick tap on his up lifted leg with a loud deep NO! then hauling him outside and praise for peeing made things clear.
Both dogs never peed in the house again. My SPoo was bred once and lived with intact females and he still never peed in the house and could wait 10 -12 hours if needed.

Point is it's normal he's still considered a teenager at 9 months. Your spayed females may be giving off an interesting scent that might confuse a virgin male. A stud dog that has been bred learns to discriminate a usually won't get excited until the scent is right. 

So what do?

Please understand that neutering the dog may not help if this is mainly a training issue. Many de-sexed dogs are not housebroken, just check the shelters.

IMO no dog under 1 yr. old is should be considered completely housebroken. Until they reach 1 yr old and they have proven the they will hold it for several hours they are not allowed full run of the house without supervision. Nor do I allow male to mark outside or on walks a gazillion times as they please. Twice is enough then we walk on play, no excessive marking. Take the dog outside (you go out with him) and teach the go potty command. Crate the dog when you cannot watch him. And at this age I hope on can place all the dogs on a down stay on their beds with a chewy and leave the room; if not start training these dogs. Get them separate beds (not yours) so they all feel that they have their own special place. Out of sight obedience may help the dog understand that self control is expected whether you are in the room or not. Watch out for salty; dog food brands, chewy rawhide, basted cow parts, pig ears etc. as they cause the dog to drinks tons of water. You may want to check for a urinary tract infection as it can cause excessive urination. Make sure the dog is getting enough exercise both mental and physical so that he will be ready to lie down relax with you are in the evening. Remember dogs can smell 1 drop of urine in a gallon of water, so clean up any mistakes very with urine removal products.

The bottom line is your dog is not housebroken yet. This is a critical part of 1 yr puppy training that cannot be skipped; so more hard work is needed whatever you decide to do. Good Luck!


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Thank you, Deseree for the great information.

I have had Jack on a leash/tether indoors now for several days. I give him a little bit of freedom here and there but he's drag gin the leash. I'm watching like a hawk because I *want* to catch him in the act. So far no "go" LOL Which I guess is a good thing! He's getting used to the tether and I've got a couple spots in the house that are great for hanging the leash end on. 

He still likes to check out my bichon (but not the PWD or chihuahua). Indoors I have scolded him for sniffing and mouth chomping, and then immediately distracted him with a toy. My rule is we do not check fannies in the house! Basically the offensive boy behaviors I'm not allowing him to do indoors- part of our 'manners' here. No humping no rear licking/mouth chomping or peeing allowed. 

I don't know how 'scientific' or behaviorally correct this is but I'm going with it!
I've read about neutering and how it affects the overall behavior of the dogs. Now my spayed girls were all allowed 2-3 heat cycles and they all still have lovely temperaments. My PWD especially didn't lose her love for work, although she became a little more 'bitchy' than when she was intact. Her fuse is shorter, that's for sure. 

My previous male (minpin) was neutered BUT he was an absolute train wreck before neutering and became much worse after despite lots and lots of classes and training and behavior modification.

Currently, Jack i every sweet and I"d like it to stay that way! Not sure on the 'when' for neutering now…
Thanks to everyone for listening


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Caught him in the act today! I bellered NO at him and then swiftly took him outside to pee some more. He acted a little shell shocked "what the heck just happened!?" but eventually peed and I praised him up!

I have natures miracle soaking on the spot he marked. Of course he chose the ONE rug we have on the entire main level. I had him tethered to me right next to the computer desk which is near the dining table. He hiked his leg up on a chair leg. When he does stuff like this it makes me want to take him in to be neutered immediately! 

He's just turning into such a lovely dog that I would hate for neutering to change him in any way (except to stop marking). 
I will say I'm getting tired of 'managing' dogs all day. The only "good" dog I have LOL is the chihuahua who is good as gold (she's too small to get into anything). My bichon, 12, never really has been reliably housebroke, my PWD will steal and eat anything with a flavor. And that means a simple leap onto the counters for her. <sigh>
I love these guys so much but some days, I swear, stuffed dogs would make the better pet! 

ETA: All but the chihuahua will do sit/stays and down/stays. And we do them about twice a week. Probably should increase that.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Shamrockmommy said:


> Caught him in the act today! I bellered NO at him and then swiftly took him outside to pee some more. He acted a little shell shocked "what the heck just happened!?" but eventually peed and I praised him up!
> 
> I have natures miracle soaking on the spot he marked. Of course he chose the ONE rug we have on the entire main level. I had him tethered to me right next to the computer desk which is near the dining table. He hiked his leg up on a chair leg. When he does stuff like this it makes me want to take him in to be neutered immediately!
> 
> ...


I had to smile when I read this post. My Chihuahuas are my "good" dogs too. They just don't do anything wrong and even as puppies were so easy and relaxed. I have days like you too, where I think...OMG, I'm getting to old to keep up with these puppies. LOL. But then they do something adorable and I don't think that anymore. hahaha. 

Counter surfing! Oh I remember those days. My Doberman was 29 inches at the withers and I had to be so careful not to leave anything out. He was so full of it...busy, busy. Well, hang in there.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

Yes, there are days when the dogs are so easy and no big deal at all, and then there are days like today where I'm thinking WHAT did I get myself into with a multiple dog household and a super clingy peeing in the house poodle!? I feel like all I do all day long is manage dogs!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I know...me too. LOL. But in a while, things will smooth out. I just know it will, as I've almost always had multiple dogs. It's those puppies. Arrgggghhh...it's a good thing they're so cute. lol.


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## jdguinn1 (Feb 4, 2011)

*Dogs and marking*

Here's the thing. They are dogs, this is what they do this is how they live this is now they receive and pass information to other members of their species. Spaying or neutering, from my experience has no effect on whether they mark or not. I have 3 poodles, all females, 2 spayed and one intact. The 2 who are spayed actually do more marking than my intact girl. 

As dog owners we have to realize they are not human, they do not understand our language nor our so called morals.

This is just a natural occurrence and if it is so annoying to you maybe you should get a feamle or a bird.


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## Shamrockmommy (Aug 16, 2013)

jdguinn1 said:


> Here's the thing. They are dogs, this is what they do this is how they live this is now they receive and pass information to other members of their species. Spaying or neutering, from my experience has no effect on whether they mark or not. I have 3 poodles, all females, 2 spayed and one intact. The 2 who are spayed actually do more marking than my intact girl.
> 
> As dog owners we have to realize they are not human, they do not understand our language nor our so called morals.
> 
> This is just a natural occurrence and if it is so annoying to you maybe you should get a feamle or a bird.


You have an excellent point and I'm fully aware it's just a boy thing, but I'm coming from 14 YEARS of a minpin marking things daily. Of changing a belly band multiple times a day. Of him ruining furniture and carpets and costing us a lot of money in cleaning carpets. He was a turd and beside the peeing was a complete nightmare of a dog. Despite all that, he got his CD, had tons of agility classes together and was a very fun dog. He lived 14 years.

As far as a bird, NO WAY. I grew up with my mom's love of parrots, and not only are they screaming, noisy buggers, they also poop anywhere and everywhere, are dusty, fling seeds about and are NOISY. Did I say they are NOISY? I stand to inherit them in a few years and have fully instructed DH to build them their own heated/cooled building as I do not want the things in the house. 

*****

As an UPDATE now, Jack is doing AWESOME! I used the tether method, which worked wonders. The 2 times I was tethered to him that he marked indoors I hollered loudly which is about all the negative consequence this pup needs. I gradually allowed him one room, two rooms, back to the tether for a week, and then again, room by room. He now has full run of the main level of the house (up and downstairs are blocked off) and as long as I get him outside regularly, he is good as gold! 

He is not yet neutered and now I'm more convinced than ever that boys marking is behavioral and a matter of training. They require a little more diligent house training than girls. My 3 girls are all very well potty trained.

Anyway, thought you might like to see the update. He'll be a year old in 9 days! I can't believe it!


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