# Stone Cold Kennels in Ontario - Opinions



## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

_I hope this doesn't go against the forum rules, but I read them and I don't think this would be considered "defamatory". It's just a warning to any future buyers who are looking within Ontario._

This breeder is breeding Standard Poodles, Bernese Mountain Dogs, German Shorthaired Pointers, Golden Retrievers AND Doodle mixes of them all it seems.

They do not health test their dogs.

They do not prove their dogs (titles, conformation, sports, hunting, etc.).

They seem to breed and raise them in a kennel on their property, not in the home.

They advertise on Kijiji.

I believe their dogs are registered with the Continental Kennel Club, if not they're just flat out lying about registration.

They charge different prices for different colours.

They only offer a one year health guarantee.

They charge an exorbitant amount of money for poorly bred puppies.

*Anyone who is interested in a Standard Poodle, please avoid this breeder. They are a high volume BYB or a Puppy Mill.*


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

They also have merle poodles, or crosses.

Whenever I see a breeder having more than 2, 3 breeds max, I avoid. Or too many dogs overall.

This place really has the whole collection of bad breeding practices. What a shame!

Did you go there yourself ?


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## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

Dechi, they definitely seem to have all the red flags to avoid. What a shame.

No not for me, I looked at the breeder for another person looking to get a Spoo. I thought I might as well share what I found.

My pup will be from Arreau


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Multiple breeds all at the same time sure is a huge red flag. Mixes are likely and it seems to make it very hard to do anything really good with any of the breeds if you are keeping large numbers of dogs and such. This reminds me of the flow chart about should you breed your dog that we have had posted here a number of times. I have included a link to a version of it. Note it is much easier to get to no than to yes.

Own Responsibly: Should You Breed Your Dog?-- A Flowchart


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## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

Thanks Lily for sharing that chart! Very clearly explained.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SpooChi said:


> Thanks Lily for sharing that chart! Very clearly explained.



I think it is Molly who has posted it previously, but it is a really good way to think things through. I look at it and I just think I have no business breeding even though all three of my dogs are healthy and well built. Both poodles have lots of Ch and GCh in their pedigrees, but that doesn't mean the future poodles of the world really need their genes. Seeing a greeder who really makes money from puppies makes me sad/mad.


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## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

Makes me upset too. When you see breeders like this, charging thousands, when they don't spend a dime on health testing or titling the dogs, it shows how much money they're just straight pocketing. That shows their real intentions and goals.

It's sad many people believe that if they spend more it must mean they're getting a better dog. It just isn't true. I wish more people would do research. With other things in life, I think most people do at least _some_ research. Like with computers, smart phones, cars, appliances, everyone wants their purchase to be reliable and long-lasting. But a commitment to a living being, who you will be taking care of for 15ish years, is an impulsive decision for many.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Stone Cold left me, just that, stone cold disgusted. These poodle cross milllers never start litters with quality dogs. They fail on the flow chart every step, except one not listed, which is what is the priciest cross going to be? Bernadoodles are having a moment...


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Mfmst said:


> Stone Cold left me, just that, stone cold disgusted. These poodle cross milllers never start litters with quality dogs. They fail on the flow chart every step, except one not listed, which is what is the priciest cross going to be? Bernadoodles are having a moment...


Kills me that unsuspecting families just wanting "a good dog" pay so much money thinking that will protect them from the heartache that is a sick family dog. They think they did right by buying from a "breeder" and you throw in the non-sense of "hybrid vigor" and you have the perfect storm. Loads of the advertisement is aimed directly at children who are in charge of choosing their dog. Total nightmare!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I know a dog who is a "designer" hybrid/"new breed" chosen by a child. She is an English Springer Spaniel crossed to a Flat Coated Retriever (rage x cancer, duh!). So far a fairly pleasant and healthy dog although pretty hyperactive. Moni that is a sad part of this when kids are getting suckered and then their parents don't know better or try to resist and then cave.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Anytime I see someone selling and raising more than one breed, my mind immediately goes to 'designer dog'. I am so tired of people coming up to me and asking if he is a real poodle... and then excitedly telling me they are getting a doodle of some sort,like that is better! 

One time I took my dog to a new groomer. It was before he had been neutered. I was horrified to go pick him up and having him all freaked out and very poorly groomed. The groomer had the nerve to even tell me she wanted to breed her dog. (And I suspect she used him!). I never went back. She had specifically told me I could not wait for him as I had wanted. 

Thanks for the awesome chart. I should have some printed to hand out at the dog park, and to anyone I know looking for a dog, or thinking about having pups with their own dog.


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## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

kontiki said:


> Anytime I see someone selling and raising more than one breed, my mind immediately goes to 'designer dog'. I am so tired of people coming up to me and asking if he is a real poodle... and then excitedly telling me they are getting a doodle of some sort,like that is better!
> 
> One time I took my dog to a new groomer. It was before he had been neutered. I was horrified to go pick him up and having him all freaked out and very poorly groomed. The groomer had the nerve to even tell me she wanted to breed her dog. (And I suspect she used him!). I never went back. She had specifically told me I could not wait for him as I had wanted.
> 
> Thanks for the awesome chart. I should have some printed to hand out at the dog park, and to anyone I know looking for a dog, or thinking about having pups with their own dog.


kontiki, I am not looking forward to doodle fans asking if our poodle is a doodle... I am going to make it my mission to make sure she looks like a poodle! But I'm sure there will still be people asking. Doodles are everywhere around here.

What a horrible experience for your poor dog, and you! I cannot imagine, and never would have thought that a groomer would do something like that. That's horrendous. I hope that she did not use him.


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## McAwesome (Jan 23, 2019)

This post was created after my intro. 

Couple of "mis information

His dogs have been health checked. He showed me the documentation

His dogs are CKC and AKC registered. His merle stud came from California. That breeder also sent along health documentation. 

The breeder he received his dog from as well as stone cold kennels never breed merle x merle due to health concerns.

He lives on 30 acres of land. Family business with many years under their belts. Massive heated kennels, nursery, and ample room to play safely in a secure area. 

Said breeder is also a ckc judge. I looked it up myself on the ckc website. He used to show dogs, now he judges them.

I understand poodle people turn their nose at merles due to health concerns. And I very much appreciate all the information I have been provided to ensure a good tempered and healthy dog. Breeding dogs is this man's (and family) business. That's what he does for a living. 

Any question, concern, documentation request have all been answered quickly and without reservation.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

McAwesome said:


> This post was created after my intro.
> 
> Couple of "mis information
> 
> ...


*Of course they have. It's his "business." 

Sorry for being defensive, but I abhor greeders who are just trying to make a profit and I LOVE the poodle breed and appreciate the dedicated show breeders who work dilligently to preserve our dear breed. *


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## McAwesome (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm not about to argue with you, or anyone for that matter.

Pages of documentation on dogs health... like a small novel. Excuse me for not using the proper terminology.

Stud came from California. Had his AKC. When he came to Canada, he was then registered under the Canadian Kennel Club. Paperwork that was filled out upon adopting the dog again was for the Canadian kennel club. 

He is a judge for the canadian kennel club. Would you like me to take a screen shot and send it your way for verification?!? 

At the end of the day, we are not breeding the dog. We are not showing the dog. We simply wanted a well tempered dog of a certain size that was non shedding. We wanted a dog that would make a good playmate for our 10 year old daughter. We wanted a dog that would be eager to play in the water, go hiking, play fetch and maybe even do agility. 

So fingers point towards my poodle being a mutt. Ok. Fine. I don't really care. I understand fully being passionate about a dog breed. But at the end of the day, every dog regardless of pedigree deserves a good and loving home.... which is what we intend on giving our Marley boy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

McAwesome said:


> I'm not about to argue with you, or anyone for that matter.
> 
> Pages of documentation on dogs health... like a small novel. Excuse me for not using the proper terminology.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you on the point of not blaming or shaming the dog, but make no mistake about it this dog who I hope will be well loved as a member of your family is a poodley type but definitely not a poodle. I do have a problem with doing business with someone who misrepresents a dog as a poodle or any other sort of a dog when there is clear evidence it cannot really be what it is represented to be. And I don't like big kennels as out buildings for very sensitive dogs such as poodles. They should be house raised start to finish.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Thank you ZM and Lily for setting the record straight here. I am having a very hard time believing that a CKC (Canadian) judge is running this mutt operation? Please do post a screen shot of that. 

Yes there are Merle poodles that have been (100% falsely) registered with AKC. Somewhere back, a parent was lied about on the registration papers (because one parent was an Aussie or other Merle breed, not a poodle.) and every Merle puppy’s color has to be lied about on the registration papers because Merle isn’t a color included on the paperwork, as Merle is not a color naturally occurring in poodles. I’m glad your dog has a loving home which he does deserve but it’s too bad that his breeder is lying on paperwork and if the CKC knew this, he wouldn’t be judging for them.


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## McAwesome (Jan 23, 2019)

Well believe it sista. Screen shots attached. I blacked out his personal info, but look at the matching cell number.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Interesting that this person is only licensed to do beagle field trials. 

It makes me so mad when people breed dogs with disqualifying faults and then sell them as "rare". Darned right they are rare - as they should be! This is no different than breeding crosses (doodles, for example) and selling them for exorbitant prices as "designer" breeds.

Ethical breeders spend many years trying to breed dogs to the standard. I suspect some of these greeders have never read the standard, much less learned about their dogs' ancestors.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

McAwesome said:


> Well believe it sista. Screen shots attached. I blacked out his personal info, but look at the matching cell number.


Excellent sleuthing, McAwesome.


I looks like he is only a judge for beagle field trials which has nothing to do with conformation.

I didn't know what a beagle field trial is so I googled CKC and found "
Home > Events > Overview of Events > Beagle Field Trials
At Beagle trials, hounds run in braces (pairs) or packs, pursuing rabbits or hares. They must use their keen noses to locate the game, then trail it enthusiastically, giving ‘tongue’ so their handlers know where they are and are able to follow. Similar events are also offered for Basset Hounds." I presume for Basset Hounds they have their own judges.

"The Beagle is primarily a hunting dog whose main function is to find game and to chase it in an energetic and decisive manner. The purpose of Beagle Field Trials is to demonstrate these natural abilities and recognize those dogs that demonstrate the highest qualities of a Beagle."

I wonder why he isn't breeding beagles? Poodles and poodle mixes don't participate in beagle field trials. 

I know you are thrilled with the dog you got from them and at the end of the day if your puppy makes you happy then that's a good thing.


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## JenandSage (Mar 9, 2018)

Skylar said:


> Excellent sleuthing, McAwesome.
> 
> 
> I didn't know what a beagle field trial is so I googled CKC and found "
> ...


I didn’t know either. I don’t know a lot really, at least, I didn’t, until I started reading poodle forum! My dad and stepmom have always had beagles.
And thanks Zooeysmom: I had no idea there was a Continental Kennel Club. I just assumed CKC was Canadian...


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## SpooChi (Dec 3, 2018)

Hi McAwesome, I created this post as a warning to other puppy buyers in our region as I saw many red flags. I hope you know I didn't do it to insult or hurt you and your family, as I know how excited you were, I just felt the need to make that kennel name searchable on this forum for others to find and come to their own conclusions. 

When you shared the photo of the puppy, I knew I had seen the ad on Kijiji, so I was able to look up the breeders info. Though you feel there are many good or acceptable things this breeder is doing, they do not erase the red flags that are clearly seen. 

To let everyone know, McAwesome and I PM'd a few times discussing this. It was a great convo and I was very impressed with how open and reasonable McAwesome was about their decision to get or not to get this puppy. I made fully aware my worries about the puppies this breeder is producing and how, and the other options available to them. And I honestly thought I would eventually hear back about them getting a pup of a different breed or from a different breeder. 

McAwesome, I understand you may feel offended by this post, and I don't mean it to come across that way. We talked about how your highest priority with your new addition was HEALTH, longevity and good temperament, and I urged you to think hard about whether this breeder would provide this and gave you a few resources and articles to prove they wouldn't. Though certain things he does may seem impressive at a glance or that he cares deeply for his dogs, and that his dogs look healthy and happy, those things alone can not give you peace of mind when it comes to the long term health and temperament of the puppy.

I know how much this breeder charges for their puppies, and I will be paying the same amount for my pup from Arreau. I just can't see any reason to have gone forward with this breeder when you're getting no health or temperament guarantee, no predictability, no peace of mind... for the same cost that I am paying for an abundance of the opposite. 

It is a bit disheartening to see you've gone through with getting this puppy. The absolute minimum is done for these puppies, but it is portrayed as if they've gone to the moon and back. I shared with you the red flags, yet unfortunately your family was already past the point of no return, and it's too difficult to say no to children when they've gotten so attached. It's understandable. But the research should be done before children become involved.

The reason for this post and posts like it is not to offend or hurt anyone's feelings (including the breeders). It is to make aware the differences in breeders to help buyers find a puppy that will be everything they want it to be. Going with a BYB is as predictable as going to the shelter, you don't know if this puppy will end up with behavioural problems that will costs thousands, become aggressive towards your children so you'd need to rehome, end up with hip dysplasia at age 2, heart disease, severe allergies or skin issues... There are no guarantees, and the deck has been stacked against you. 

That isn't a guarantee that your puppy won't turn out wonderful. It may grow up as a perfect companion for your family and never have a spec of health problems until old age. That would be awesome, and I do truly hope that is the case for you guys. 

But those who have knowledge and experience when it comes to BYB/Mills/Reputable Breeders, will always try to inform others, not because they "turn their nose up" to mutts/non-show dogs, but because it's a matter of ethics, and they're trying to help others avoid the devastation that BYBs/Mills bring about. One less person buying from a BYB/Mill, one less dog in a shelter being PTS. 

Best wishes with your new little one. I hope the puppy is all you hoped for and you have lots of fun over the years.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SpooChi I think you could have been more careful here about revealing private messages. I understand (and share) your concerns, but unless McAwesome has specifically said they didn't mind your discussing your private correspondence that is a violation of forum rules. Also we should welcome them and their active membership rather than telling them over and over what we think they did wrong. It isn't as if they said "make this specific puppy for me." The puppy existed and they found and chose it. Let's wish them success with this pup and help them when or if they need it.


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## Denbigh (Feb 15, 2020)

SpooChi said:


> Hi McAwesome, I created this post as a warning to other puppy buyers in our region as I saw many red flags. I hope you know I didn't do it to insult or hurt you and your family, as I know how excited you were, I just felt the need to make that kennel name searchable on this forum for others to find and come to their own conclusions.
> 
> When you shared the photo of the puppy, I knew I had seen the ad on Kijiji, so I was able to look up the breeders info. Though you feel there are many good or acceptable things this breeder is doing, they do not erase the red flags that are clearly seen.
> 
> ...


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## Denbigh (Feb 15, 2020)

I am very shocked at people bad mouthing Stone Cold Kennels ,I have nothing but praise for them .I bought a very beautiful black standard poodle from them and had her vet checked and she is in excellent health ,She is a very happy good natured dog .She is just perfect in every way .They were also excellent people to deal with .I have and will always recommend them to whoever I meet.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Denbigh said:


> I am very shocked at people bad mouthing Stone Cold Kennels ,I have nothing but praise for them .I bought a very beautiful black standard poodle from them and had her vet checked and she is in excellent health ,She is a very happy good natured dog .She is just perfect in every way .They were also excellent people to deal with .I have and will always recommend them to whoever I meet.


I'm very glad you are happy with your poodle! They are wonderful dogs.

I looked at Stone Cold when I was looking for a dog, and wasn't particularly impressed, but they certainly don't look like the worst breeder you can find. I was unimpressed by the number of litters they seem to have (seem to be trying to find homes for at least two litters right now), and that they seem to breed doodles, which should be an automatic disqualification from CKC!

Most of the people on this forum strongly prefer breeders who title their dogs, and breed as a hobby towards the betterment of the breed. Basically, for about the same price as a dog from a breeder like Stone Cold, you can get a puppy from parents who are championship titled (which tests "does the dog look like a poodle and walk like a poodle" as well as tolerance to things like grooming, inspection, other dogs, calmness, etc), and who have been health tested (not just health checked), and often, parents with performance titles (which prove their trainability/agility/ability to work). Standard poodles, like many breeds, are prone to a bunch of health issues, may of which can (and should!) be tested for before two dogs are bred. Things like hip dysplasia, poor eyes, elbow dysplasia, and many genetic diseases (and more) can be tested for to prevent their occurrence in puppies.

Many people dislike when people sell dogs without health testing/championships, etc (which are very expensive!), for the same price as a puppy whose parents have those attributes, who are breeding for the money.

There are many threads here on what people think a "good breeder" does, (although you'll probably never find a breeder who does ALL things). For me, a good breeder doesn't have more than 3 or 4 dogs, keeps their dogs inside the house, shows or competes in some dog sport, only breeds 1-2 litters per year, waits until dogs are 2-3 before breeding, and only breeds females once per year, raises puppies in the house, health tests, has a "goal" with each breeding, does extensive socialization, and has a health guarantee, breeder support, and will accept all dogs of their breeding back if necessary. I also like breeders who post pictures of their puppies in their "natural" environment (so in a pen in the living room, snuggling with mama, etc) instead of "posed" pictures.

Stone Cold didn't meet my requirements, but I'm glad they met yours, and you love your dog.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

For Want of Poodle said:


> ......... they seem to breed doodles, which should be an automatic disqualification from CKC!
> 
> Most of the people on this forum strongly prefer breeders who title their dogs, and breed as a hobby towards the betterment of the breed. Basically, for about the same price as a dog from a breeder like Stone Cold, you can get a puppy from parents who are championship titled (which tests "does the dog look like a poodle and walk like a poodle" as well as tolerance to things like grooming, inspection, other dogs, calmness, etc), and who have been health tested (not just health checked), and often, parents with performance titles (which prove their trainability/agility/ability to work). Standard poodles, like many breeds, are prone to a bunch of health issues, may of which can (and should!) be tested for before two dogs are bred. Things like hip dysplasia, poor eyes, elbow dysplasia, and many genetic diseases (and more) can be tested for to prevent their occurrence in puppies.
> 
> ...


Thanks for even more info to confirm I would not use this breeder. You have excellent points. I highly value the information shared about breeders on this site. It is extremely helpful when we have specific things we look for, both in a breeder, and in a dog. 

If a breeder even allowed one of their poodles to be part of making a doodle I would not purchase one of their poodles. No one who has top notch, well bred poodles would allow their dog, male or female, to be used that way.

Denbigh, I am so glad you are happy with your poodle and the breeder. It sounds like you have fallen in love for sure!


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Hello, the is Vita, speaking as your new Super Moderator.*

The thread was created in Feb 2019 but this week was resurrected.

*History.* Last year the OP on Post #1 made several untrue assumptions, which is violation of the Terms of Use (TOU) agreement to not post defamatory information.

An owner of a Stone Cold Kennels dog on Posts 13, 15, & 18 corrected the misinformation. 
This week, a second owner of a Stone Cold Kennels poodle (on Post #24) also had direct dealings with SCK, and was also positive about the kennel and their dog.

*Current Concerns.* I replaced the title of this thread from SCK - Avoid, to SCK - Opinions. To title a thread *telling* others to "avoid" a breeder is begging for a lawsuit. It is fine to say *you* would avoid a breeder and why (based on concrete information, observations, your red flags and deal breakers, etc, see spoiler below), but it's a slippery slope when you to tell others to do this. 

*Please note*: I did a great deal of reading to be a good moderator. There was a breeder here who years ago successfully sued and won against three people for spreading false and negative information on another social media platform and it made the newspapers, but to protect her privacy I will not link to the article. By intervening in this thread, it is my hope to educate and protect all parties.

*This thread also has been moved* from the Poodle Breeder Directory, which is the one area on PF where poodle breeders may create one self-promotional thread. SCK did not create this thread, nor can they since Poodle Forum does not allow self promotion by breeders of mixed-breed poodles. Thus this thread has been moved to the Poodle Breeders subforum and has been locked.



Spoiler



*Members Rules In The Poodle Breeder Directory Threads*

Members may create a thread asking about a specific breeder, preferably in the *Poodle Breeder Directory* subforum which is located under the Poodle Talk forum. Please use the search bar first to see if information has already been posted. As a member, you may recommend, refer, and discuss breeders.

5.7 Members may not ask a breeder how much his/her puppies or dogs cost or attempt to make direct transactions, either publicly or in PM's on Poodle Forum.

5.8 You may not solicit stud services on Poodle Forum.

5.9 In discussing a breeder, *your opinions and inferences should be based on a degree of available factual knowledge*. What is factual knowledge? It covers a lot of ground:

a) You have experience with the breeder. This is where you have spoken directly and in-depth or worked with the breeder, OR

b) You have directly observed the environment where the puppies and dogs are; OR,

c) Other concrete observations - You have read or observed in photos or videos on their sites or other electronic site(s), which may include pedigrees, health testing, contracts, public court documents or animal welfare complaints, OR

d) You have read information on OFA or a DNA testing site and seen which conditions were tested - and observed which tests have been omitted; OR

e) You have read court documentation or registered complaints on government websites, and review websites such as Yelp or Google, and can provide the links.

f) There is no agreed upon term defining a “backyard breeder”. For example, one person’s hobby breeder who doesn’t place their poodle in Conformation shows but has other assets, still might be another person’s byb. Instead, stating non-judgmental, specific factual observations in their breeding program and environment is far more productive, and shows respect to all readers who can make up their own minds without anyone telling them what and how to think.

Members may make *reasonable inferences* from the above which leaves a lot of room to do so. HOWEVER, members are not to make wild assumptions and "fill in the blanks". Breeding, when done with excellence, is expensive, so this is to avoid spreading untruths, but also for you not being sued for libel or defamation.


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