# Is this an OK breeding practice



## stook1 (Mar 21, 2014)

I've talked with a breeder recently about an upcoming litter and was informed that the Sire is not quite 2 years old yet and has not been fully tested (only eyes and prelim hips so far). Apparently, he is still being shown.

As best I can tell, this is a very responsible breeder that has been breeding for a long time and is very careful about tracking/managing health issues in their lines. This breeder's dogs have been shown, including the Dam, who is a GCH. When I asked about the lack of testing, the breeder agreed but explained that the Sire's line was really good (includes Ale Kai Mikimoto on Fifth, for example) and that the knowledge of the line was enough to be comfortable with the lack of testing in this case.

We're a little concerned about this, however, and not too sure what to think of the situation. Can anyone help? Is this an automatic huge red flag? Or is the dog's lineage a factor that should really be considered in the decision.

Any assistance would be most appreciated!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the theory has been put forth here that "upper tier" breeders do not get into the weeds with extensive testing. personally, with the financial and emotional investment you are bound to make, i would have to know a breeder like that extremely well before taking the chance. but that's just one person's opinion.


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## lisakimberly (Oct 30, 2010)

don't agree with this breeding practice. ask your breeder the questions suggested by versatility in poodles website, if they can;t answer to your satisfaction, red flag


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I can kinda sorta see the point that a really knowledgeable breeder who knew the health history of every dog in the pedigree might be ok with breeding the dog before the health testing was complete. I respect that she was honest with you - agreed that the full testing should be done, but gave you her reasoning why she was comfortable going ahead with the breeding and left it up to you to decide if you are comfortable. I most definitely would not call it a red flag situation - more like a, you have to decide for yourself how much you trust this breeders ability to make the call that she did. I know that I would trust my toy poodle breeder if she told me something similar because she has been an acclaimed breeder for over 50 years, I have known her for over 15 years, am about to get my third poodle from her and have referred numerous friends and acquaintances over the years (and my old vet used to refer his clients to her as well), and have yet to hear of a single one of her poodles having an inherited health issue. You should try to research the breeder more to decide what level of trust you want to put in her judgement!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I personally do not agree with this practice. For hips, for example,things can and do happen between the time a pre-lim is done and a final i done. Sometime it ends up the result is better at the final, but what if the dog was pre lim'd good and at two was mildly dysplastic? I took a chance years ago on a pre-lim and my heart was in my throat and was ever so thankful when the breeding did not take! I want fully tested parents on a dog I am buying a pup from.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I also am not a fan of the practice. In addition to the reasons already mentioned, you know much less about the health issues in the immediate ancestors and that particular parent by breeding him so young.


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## stook1 (Mar 21, 2014)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I also am not a fan of the practice. In addition to the reasons already mentioned, you know much less about the health issues in the immediate ancestors and that particular parent by breeding him so young.


That is a great point that I had not thought of. Thank you!

On this topic --- another breeder that I am considering mentioned that the dam's father has allergy issues, grandfather had bloat as a middle aged dog but survived and is older now. Her great grandmother has inflamatory bowel, which doesnt sound good!!! but kind of a distant relation. Otherwise healthy. Am I correct in thinking this is fairly normal and should not be alarming? Dam and Sire are both about 5 and half or 6 years oldish.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

stook1 said:


> That is a great point that I had not thought of. Thank you!
> 
> On this topic --- another breeder that I am considering mentioned that the dam's father has allergy issues, grandfather had bloat as a middle aged dog but survived and is older now. Her great grandmother has inflamatory bowel, which doesnt sound good!!! but kind of a distant relation. Otherwise healthy. Am I correct in thinking this is fairly normal and should not be alarming? Dam and Sire are both about 5 and half or 6 years oldish.


It's hard to say and it's one of those things where I would want to know more before deciding how concerned I was. The truth is that there is no line without health issues and it is excellent to find a breeder that disclosed to you the issues that exist. And it's possible that similar if not worse issues could lurk in a line of someone who says nothing of them. But at the same time, yes, IBD, bloat, and allergies are a concern and would at least give me pause. Have the sire and dam produced any health issues to date? Have the sire and dam's parents produced any of the mentioned issues?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It's hard to say and it's one of those things where I would want to know more before deciding how concerned I was. The truth is that there is no line without health issues and it is excellent to find a breeder that disclosed to you the issues that exist. And it's possible that similar if not worse issues could lurk in a line of someone who says nothing of them. But at the same time, yes, IBD, bloat, and allergies are a concern and would at least give me pause. Have the sire and dam produced any health issues to date? Have the sire and dam's parents produced any of the mentioned issues?



Having had a dog with allergies (who developed IBD when she was old - I wonder if there is a connection), personally I would RUN from a puppy that was sired by an allergic dog. Not life threatening, but difficult, not to mention expensive to live with - I would never pick a puppy that had a higher than ordinary chance of being afflicted by it.
On the other hand, I have respect for a breeder who knows the health history of all the dogs in the pedigree and discloses it.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i suppose one could ask about the coefficient of inbreeding, but to me the bottom line is, if the breeder knows about these issues, why does she keep breeding the dogs? surely there are better choices out there?


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## stook1 (Mar 21, 2014)

Ok, my apologies, I might have confused the situation a little in my original explanation. The health issues that I mentioned are all on the Dam's side. So when I said that the father had allergies, I was referring to the Dam's father, not the Sire for this new litter. The Dam is completely healthy with no allergies, no inflamatory bowel, etc.

I am not sure if that makes things any better given what everyone is saying but I wanted to clarify. Oy, looks like I might be back to square one in my search.... Will have to think things over a little. Thank you for the feedback.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just want to make clear that i understood you were talking about the dam's line. but this is what you are saying is in the line: ibd in dam's greatgrandmother, bloat in dam's grandfather, allergy in dam's sire. something in every generation, though not necessarily the same something, and that presumably with outbreeding? so what's the overwhelming positive that was so irreplaceable that the breeder decided to keep on breeding this particular line? 

if the sire and dam are now 5/6, there are probably other descendants out there. are all descendants completely healthy, or is it impossible to know for sure as they haven't all been kept track of?

good for the breeder for full disclosure, but i'm not sure that means one of the pups would be the best dog for you.


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## stook1 (Mar 21, 2014)

patk said:


> just want to make clear that i understood you were talking about the dam's line. but this is what you are saying is in the line: ibd in dam's greatgrandmother, bloat in dam's grandfather, allergy in dam's sire. something in every generation, though not necessarily the same something, and that presumably with outbreeding? so what's the overwhelming positive that was so irreplaceable that the breeder decided to keep on breeding this particular line?
> 
> if the sire and dam are now 5/6, there are probably other descendants out there. are all descendants completely healthy, or is it impossible to know for sure as they haven't all been kept track of?
> 
> good for the breeder for full disclosure, but i'm not sure that means one of the pups would be the best dog for you.


Well, when you put it that way, I suppose it sounds not so great! I think the breeder was very successful showing her line for conformation. Not that conformation is important to me in and of itself, but I figured that a breeder that was really invested in showing her dogs was likely to be a responsible breeder. 

The Dam for the litter I am considering, for example, seems to have been highly ranked nationally in recent years and I have also seen this breeder's dogs in the lineage of some the Standard Poodles at Westminster, for example. Does that matter to me for a family pet - no. But I guess it led me to the possible false assumption that the breeder was super careful about her line's genetics. I will need to inquire about the relatives that she does not own. I can't answer the question of whether (and at what frequency) her lines have produced health issues. She did say that she stays in touch with people and wants to hear about issues.


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