# What color is he? Need help.



## Jako (Mar 4, 2008)

He could be a blue.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

That's what I thought!


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Its hard to tell right now with the coat the way it is. What does his current owner say he is? 

I would say he is a smutty black.

Is he purebred?


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Its hard to tell right now with the coat the way it is. What does his current owner say he is?
> 
> I would say he is a smutty black.
> 
> Is he purebred?


She said the best way she could describe him was a black mixture.
I think his papers say he is black. 

Smutty black, huh? I will look into it.

Yes, he is purebred with papers...I think he has just had a very crappy
grooming job performed which throws his looks off. Notice
how they have cut the top knot off and ears are trimmed shortly. 

I'm getting him at a bargain price though and she is giving me a folder
with his reg. papers, shot records, health records, and frontline treatments.

I don't plan on breeding for over a year and after I get him looking better.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

I want to say he looks like a smutty blue or black. From what I have read when you get a smutty colored coat like that it's because its poorly bred. 

Is that the only photo you have seen of him? Have you seen him in person? Im not sure what kind of a deal this person is making you but he doesn't look like the best bred Poodle. (I know his cut isn't doing him any justice) 

Are you just breeding to breed or is there something specific you are looking to get out of it?


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

JENN SECRETO said:


> I want to say he looks like a smutty blue or black. From what I have read when you get a smutty colored coat like that it's because its poorly bred.
> 
> Is that the only photo you have seen of him? Have you seen him in person? Im not sure what kind of a deal this person is making you but he doesn't look like the best bred Poodle. (I know his cut isn't doing him any justice)
> 
> Are you just breeding to breed or is there something specific you are looking to get out of it?



Huh, never would of imagined that.

I can get some more pictures of him. No I haven't seen him in person 
but will next week before getting him. I agree he is not the best looking
bred poodle but he is full blooded. His cut is HORRIBLE.

I was actually going to breed him once to my female just to breed.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Well, have you seens any pics of his parents? That might help determine where he is getting the color from. Is the seller a breeder or just someone who is selling there dog?

I was just thinking if she is a breeder and she has him looking like that maybe it's a puppymill ??? But of course puppymills don't usually let on that they are breeders. Are you meeting the seller somewhere to get the dog?

I was just thinking that could explain the color being smuggy. Puppymills let there dogs breed to littermates, father to daughter and so forth. They just don't care about the dog...just the $$$


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## Angie (Aug 31, 2008)

Please be careful with breeding this dog if you know nothing about his background. He could have health issues in his background hence the "good deal". Rescues and pounds are full of purebred poodles that were created just to be created. I know everyone has different opinions towards breeding but please think everything through. Good luck with your decision. Keep us posted. BTW, he looks older to me. He looks like a black that has started graying.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Angie said:


> Please be careful with breeding this dog if you know nothing about his background. He could have health issues in his background hence the "good deal". Rescues and pounds are full of purebred poodles that were created just to be created. I know everyone has different opinions towards breeding but please think everything through. Good luck with your decision. Keep us posted. *BTW, he looks older to me. He looks like a black that has started graying*.


I thought that as well, but when she said he was two I figured he was just a bad black.

"just to breed" is never a good reason to breed any animal. Poodles are on of the illest breeds there are because of BYB's Puppymills and folks like you who breed "just to breed"

I have to go right now but I'll post some need to read links for you.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

*Angie-

I will check into his background, any suggestions on what questions
I should ask the breeder?

She is going to give me all of his health records upon buying him
including shots,vet visits, frontline treatments, etc. Also, I would
LOVE to adopt a purebred poodle, but in the town I live in there is
no shelter or pound that has any small dogs period just big mutts. 
Plus I'm not willing to travel to the nearest shelter over 100 miles away,
gas is already killing me here. Forget me paying hundreds of dollars for
a male miniature that has champion bloodlines or a fancy pedigree and 
fancy papers either...I'm too poor for that! LOL!

I promise to think everything through and ask alot of questions to the breeder.

Thanks alot for your honest opinion and suggestions!*


*Purple Poodle-

I said just to breed, but that was a dumb answer...I have my reasons,
I have a baby that will be born soon and kids can be expensive and
my husband can't seem to keep a job...I thought a few puppies would
bring some money into my home, I mean you can't blame me for thinking 
of my child first...I don't care what anyone says. Like I told my husband
it will be over a year and 1/2 before we consider breeding this dog to my
poodle if we get him...by then the dog should look alot better with a 
proper grooming job and care. I hate people who breed just to breed also,
hence throwing two opposite sex mutts in the backyard without being
spayed and neutered and what do you know...puppies!!

The dog seems to be pretty healthy (hence all the health records and paperwork).
I am NOT looking to breed show quality poodles here. 
So what if he is a little shaggy looking? I think the poodles I breed will have
the potential to be a perfect pet only and I'm satisfied with that.

Thanks alot for your honest opinion and suggestions!
*

Do you think his coat color could have been sorta bleached from being 
out in the sun? I know the sun can have an effect on a black dogs 
coat sometimes. Looking at him, I really don't think he is a blue...too
dark looking to be one to me. Did I mention he looks almost identical
to my other shaggy stud, and my other stud is AKC registered. I think
the grooming job has alot to do with the looks.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> She said the best way she could describe him was a black mixture.
> I think his papers say he is black.
> 
> Smutty black, huh? I will look into it.
> ...


OMG, are you serious. You are buying him cause he is a bargain price  Sorry but he really isnt quality and I really hate ppl breeding just for the sake of breeding. Its not a case of I have a female and I have a male, so I can put them together. Do your research, find what would match your bitchs line. Sheeesh, sorry these type of things ppl do really get up my skirt.



mercymoon said:


> Huh, never would of imagined that.
> 
> I can get some more pictures of him. No I haven't seen him in person
> but will next week before getting him. I agree he is not the best looking
> ...


Wow, thats a bloody good reason to breed  Who cares if he is full blooded. Seems like you really need to research, learn about breeding, genes and genetics, what makes a good speciman of the breed before you even think about breeding. You do realise you breed to improve dont you ??


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Sivaro-

*please* read my previous post above your own.
I understand where everyone is coming from, but understand where I am
coming from also, I realize I gave a crappy answer to why I wanted to breed earlier
in the thread. I realize your post was to inform me though.

*I'm not here to fight with ANYONE or really to argue either.*

ALSO!!!!!! To make everyone happy...i asked the lady alot of questions!
This is what I asked:


1.) What color was his Dam and Sire?

2.) Is he absolutely purebred?

3.) Does he have a Pedigree or am I capable of getting a pedigree on him?

4.) Does he have any health issues or health issues in his background with his Dam, Sire, etc that you know of?

5.) What day, month, and year was he born exactly?

6.) Have you had the top knot (hair on top of the head) and his ears trimmed?

7.) What all will I receive that comes with him prior to purchasing him?

8.) Will he be bathed and groomed the day upon arrival of getting him?

9.) Any fleas?

10.) Any pictures of his Dam and Sire?

11.) Has he ever been bred to another poodle before? Any pictures of the offspring?

12.) All shots are up to date?

13.) When was his last vet visit and what was he there for?

14.) How long have you owned this dog for and where did you get him from?

Any other questions I should ask?


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## rmillstein (May 26, 2008)

Mercymoon,

Sorry, sometimes things get a little contentious around here. People have very strong opinions about poodles. 

I understand your situation and your motivation for wanting to buy this dog and breed him. One question that I have is how much money you'll actually make from selling the pups. After all, you'll be feeding this new dog, plus vet bills, plus caring for the pups until they are old enough to sell. I imagine you won't be able to get a super-high price for them, certainly not a show price. 

Someone else who has more experience with this sort of thing can maybe shed a little more light on it. It is my impression that most breeders don't make much money -- that money is not their main motivation. You might be better off finding a job that you can do at home from your computer.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

rmillstein said:


> Mercymoon,
> 
> Sorry, sometimes things get a little contentious around here. People have very strong opinions about poodles.
> 
> ...


Aww thanks...seriously I needed it!

Lets see, my grandpa's girlfriend is a breeder and she was making $250 
on my bitches litter mates and they went FAST , but I just wanted to 
try breeding myself at least once, not JUST for the money but for the 
joy of bringing puppies into my home and finding loving homes for them. 

My husband is looking for a job and I am going to start looking as well
I think, by time I will be ready to breed...I think everything will be working
out fine. We do have 3 other dogs beside my bitch and they are fat
and healthy, so we do get by. We do have food stamps and I have
a medicaid card... so were poor and never see alot of money.

Thanks so much for not giving me a hard time, I haven't even got the
dog yet and I'm touching nerves on here, lol.


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## Kela (Aug 12, 2008)

Please please please do not breed this dog. Breeding is NOT a good way to make money. 

Breeding is NOT profitable and can be very very risky! If anything goes wrong, you could wind up with a dead female and very expensive vet bills. 

Here are some costs that you might not have thought about:
Pre breeding exams for both dogs ~$100
Xrays of pregnant dog ~$150+
Extra food and vitamins for the bitch ~$100
Whelping box, water bottles, and misc supplies ~$100
Office visit to examine puppies ~$75+
Removal of dewclaws for each pup ~$25+ x number of pups
Vaccinations for each pup ~$25+ x number of pups
Puppy food ~$100+
Worming each puppy ~25+ x number of pups
Time off work to raise puppies ~??$
Possible c-section ~$500
Advertising to sell the puppies

What if you only end up having 1 or 2 pups? Then you'll have invested likely over 800 dollars and be lucky if you can sell them for 400. You mentioned that you can't afford a purebred papered animal, well can you afford to shell out nearly a thousand dollars as a gamble?

You can also bet on at least one puppy not surviving. None of this is even taking into consideration the cost of health screening that SHOULD be done if you don't want to be labelled as a terrible back yard breeder. There is a pet overpopulation problem and you could be breeding animals with horrible genetic faults. We already know that the dog you're thinking about purchasing has faults as a poodle just from seeing one awful picture. A nice haircut isn't going to make that dog look like a star.

I don't think you realize the large cost of having the puppies. Even if you were easily able to find homes for them at 250 each, you aren't taking into consideration all that goes into it. Do you realize how much time you'll have to invest in all of this? A 2 month stint working at taco bell would probably pay more than trying to have a litter of puppies.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Kela said:


> You mentioned that you can't afford a purebred papered animal, well can you afford to shell out nearly a thousand dollars as a gamble?


Where did I mention I couldn't afford a purebred papered dog? The
dog is purebred and has papers, my bitch is purebred, papered and 
comes from a nice lineage. I stated I am not willing to pay hundreds
of dollars for a FANCY show quality papered purebred dog.

Also, no offense but I don't think hardly any breeders in this state get 
all of that or if any of that done you listed, I can see some of it 
being done worming, food, vet visits, shots, the necessary, etc.

I personally like the dog and getting him will be my choice and money
out of my own pocket, getting him may be a mistake but if that's the 
case it will be my own fault. I also don't think he looks awful at all.

Breeding is also* just a consideration* I may choose to buy the
dog and get him neutered and just keep him as a pet because
I just generally like poodles and want another one. Puppies
is something I'm considering for the future, she may not even
breed to this dog but another stud instead.

I swear I'm not trying to be rude or anything, I'm just naturally defensive. 

I'm also about ready to close this thread....all I wanted to know
was what color the dang dog was and it led to all of this.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Hum... I don't know, but if times are that tough my first thought isn't to buy another Poodle for a breeding in the future. Seems like you may feel defensive about what your plan is since it's not a responsible decision. 

I think you have realized now that most of the people here on this forum want the best for the breed. Not what's best for there income.

For the dog having shot records and vet receipts ..... big deal. Most dogs do when you buy them. Of course, you will make your own decision and do as you please but when I hear about someone breeding just breed you bet your going to hear my opinion. I was trying to be as pleasant as possible prior but the more you say the less I like.

FYI .... You should normally wait until a bitch is 2 yrs before even consider breeding. They are not fully matured at a 1 1/2 yrs and are still practically a puppy.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Any time you mention breeding a dog on a dog fourm you will get concerned people posting. 

First of all what you call "fancy" show dogs are not just a piece of fluff running around a ring those dogs are bred to be the best and compete against the standard to see just how great of a dog they are.

Second all of the testing Kela suggested *is* necessary. There are so many health issues in Poodles its not even funny. Just because you are not breeding for the ring does not mean you should not breed for quality. If you do breed this dog with out getting the proper heath tests done is no better then breeding a mutt. 

Those are good questions to ask the breeder I would also ask the breeder what Kennel Club he is registered with.

FYI just because the dog has "papers" does not mean it is worth breeding.

Here are a couple of links I think you should look over before breeding your bitch.

Required health testing via the VIP
http://www.vipoodle.org/docs/gnts_mt.htm

All about breeding any dog
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeding.html


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## Kela (Aug 12, 2008)

> Forget me paying hundreds of dollars for
> a male miniature that has champion bloodlines or a fancy pedigree and
> fancy papers either...I'm too poor for that! LOL!


This is the phrase I was commenting on, I did not phrase it well. Yes your dog has papers of some kind and might be pure bred. LOTS of dogs have papers. Dogs from pet stores have papers and you definitely would not want to breed one of those. 

You said you were too poor to afford a dog with champion bloodlines. These dogs are champions because they were genetically screened, health tested, and conform to the breed standard. A champion bloodline animal will cost between 500 and 2500 dollars. Similarly, this is the amount of money you will put into breeding the dog.

Even if you do it BADLY (which you have mentioned you may do as you don't feel some things are necessary) you will STILL put in at least 500 dollars. AT LEAST! The average litter size is 4 for a second breed. The FIRST breed is usually less! And the chance that at least one puppy will die is about 25%. So you're looking at a liklihood of 2 sellable puppies.

2 puppies at 250 each is 500 dollars.

Guess how much money you spent getting those 2 puppies? 500 dollars. How much is the male costing you? Add that to the figure. How much did not working for 2 months cost you?

If you are on food stamps, breeding animals for profit is absolutely not the way to approach the subject. You are only setting yourself up for heartbreak.

*Please read the links that Purple Poodle posted!*


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## Kela (Aug 12, 2008)

I just read on the other forum that you're also about to have a baby which means even less time and money for puppies. I'm glad you have not purchased this dog yet, I hope we have given you lots of things to think about.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Thanks everyone who was kind with their replies,
I haven't heard back from the owner with a reply
to the questions I asked her, doesn't sound to
good on her behalf.

Also, the only reason that I am (or want to) 
investing in a dog now is because I've ran into
some big money from selling an expensive horse.

I thank everyone for the valuable info. they 
have given me on the matter.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> Where did I mention I couldn't afford a purebred papered dog? The
> dog is purebred and has papers, my bitch is purebred, papered and
> comes from a nice lineage. I stated I am not willing to pay hundreds
> of dollars for a FANCY show quality papered purebred dog.
> ...


Sorry but now you are really getting my back up. How dare you degrade our breed like this. Thats exactly how it is, very degrading to put an average looking dog to a bitch just for the sake of I want to breed Fancy show dogs ehh!!! These fancy show dogs have a lifetime of hard work put into them, trying to breed for the betterment of the breed. We make sure not only are the genetic requirements done to ensure the dogs health, but conformation also. They arent just a pretty looking show dog as you see it, they are a lifetime of hard work and devotion.

Is your bitch even registered? Have you done the genetic health tests such as PRCD-PRA (blindness), hip dysplasia, leg perthes, slipping patellas. I can tell you, some of these test mount to the thousands. 

For anyone to just buy a dog randomly like you are without taking in all the considerations, you are nothing more that a BYB. Now you can hang around and learn to do things properly, or you can sulk and run. But dont buy a dog that is suitable for a pet home only which should have been desexed just cause you want to breed.

I hate nothing more than dogs going into the wrong hands and ending up like my boy Leo. He was sold to a breeder, who then sold him onto a farmer, and was nearly dead when I found out what happened to him. With what you are doing, your pups will end up like my Leo, treating like ****.


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## Kela (Aug 12, 2008)

Oh my god, I started crying. Sivaro you are wonderful for rescuing that poor animal!!


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Okay sorry, I'm not even getting the damn dog now anyways due
to my own choice to look for something better. I didn't mean
to "degrade," the breed, I was only wanting to do a one time
only breeding. Yes, My bitch is registered and those test will be
performed.

Not taking consideration? I asked the lady a million questions, some
of which I even post.

I'm truly sorry about Leo, and no I don't want my dogs winding up like
that either.

I'm sorry, really. 

Everyone please read before posting:

I AM NO LONGER GETTING THIS DOG!!!! IT'S OVER!!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

Sometimes you need to see a shock horror story like Leo to open your eyes. Im glad you arent getting the dog now, hang around and learn alot before buying and breeding. Research and study, for a long time, not spur of the moment.

Leo was my dog, I sold him to a breeder who I thought I could trust. She later sold him to a puppy farm. Now all my dogs leave here desexed as Im so scared of this happening to one of my dogs again. It happened a while ago now and still I cant get over what happened to my boy. No farmer will ever want my dogs again cause they cant breed from them. These poor dogs like is cages like battery hens, never get clipped, have eye sores, get beaten when no longer wanted, starved and dehydrated. Leo was hung, but somehow got out of it, his trachea is stuffed and finds it hard to swallow. He was kicked to the ****, bruises were still there one month later when they were finally able to xray him. His testie were opened right up when they finally used the clippers on him, less open and the testies were coming out. His backbones the skin was open and the bones were showing on the outside. Because of being starved you could literally see inside him cause his skin was so thin. He had an hour to live before he got to the vets and only just made it. Lucky this boy had a will to live. And the emotional part which is worse than what he went through, is he still trusted and loved human.
I wouldnt have.


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## rmillstein (May 26, 2008)

At the risk of throwing fuel on a fire that is dying down -- now I am pissed off. A new person comes to the forum, and what happens?? She gets attacked. No wonder she got defensive -- anyone who got attacked like that would have. It is one thing to offer suggestions and advice -- that is what this forum is for. But to come down on her as hard as people have here is out of line, in my opinion. And you don't educate anyone by insulting them. All you do is piss them off. And what does Leo have to do with anything? He is a *mistreated* dog. It's awful, but it has nothing to do with breeding. Just because she breeds her dogs a certain way doesn't mean they will be mistreated. I agree 100% that knowing the dog's lineage and the genetic tests are important for breeding, but being of "show quality"? I am sorry, but I could not care less whether the dog was of the exact proportions required to be a show dog, or whether the fur or color was just right, or whatever. As far as I am concerned, those standards are arbitrary, and as long as the dog is healthy and well treated, that is all that matters. The breeders on this forum need to realize that not everyone here is a breeder and not everyone cares about the things that you care about. And that doesn't make us bad people or mean that we care less about poodles than you do. We value and love them as companions and as members of our families. 

So, let's try to be a little more tolerant here. Let's try to share information without being so judgmental. Let's realize that we all love poodles, even if we love them in different ways and value them for different reasons.


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## Kela (Aug 12, 2008)

You're right Millstein...attacking people isn't the right approach. Most people don't use the right approach when attempting to convince someone of X or Y. It is possible that we did more harm than good in this situation.

For your comment about a show dog, it isn't just about how the dog looks though. I truly believe without a doubt that you are much more likely to find a healthy dog that is show quality, than going to a breeder who does not shed. This is just as a matter of probability here, if we're going to lump breeders into these two categories. I would feel much safer choosing a dog from someone who has to test all of her dogs for a myriad of things, than choosing one from someone who may or may not simply be in it for the money.

While I agree with your point, I think you were overly rash (and acted similarly to those you condemned)towards those that you directed your point to.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

rmillstein said:


> At the risk of throwing fuel on a fire that is dying down -- now I am pissed off. A new person comes to the forum, and what happens?? She gets attacked. No wonder she got defensive -- anyone who got attacked like that would have. It is one thing to offer suggestions and advice -- that is what this forum is for. But to come down on her as hard as people have here is out of line, in my opinion. And you don't educate anyone by insulting them. All you do is piss them off. *And what does Leo have to do with anything? He is a *mistreated* dog. It's awful, but it has nothing to do with breeding. Just because she breeds her dogs a certain way doesn't mean they will be mistreated.* I agree 100% that knowing the dog's lineage and the genetic tests are important for breeding, but being of "show quality"? I am sorry, but I could not care less whether the dog was of the exact proportions required to be a show dog, or whether the fur or color was just right, or whatever. As far as I am concerned, those standards are arbitrary, and as long as the dog is healthy and well treated, that is all that matters. *The breeders on this forum need to realize that not everyone here is a breeder and not everyone cares about the things that you care about. And that doesn't make us bad people or mean that we care less about poodles than you do. We value and love them as companions and as members of our families. *
> 
> So, let's try to be a little more tolerant here. Let's try to share information without being so judgmental. Let's realize that we all love poodles, even if we love them in different ways and value them for different reasons.


Actually yes it has everything to do with breeding. I think the point Sivaro is trying to make is that you NEVER know exactly where those puppies you breed will end up. Like she said in the beginning he went to what she though was a wonderful home but look how he ended up.

The pet owners here need to realize that the breed they love so much has a very bad reputation because of unscrupulous breeding. No it may not make you bad or mean but it does make you ignorant and you should care about the health of the breed you claim to love so much. Also show dogs are just as much pets and companions as a rescued animal. I love my "fancy" show dog no more or no less then I love my rescued animals.

Anyway I agree Sivaro was a bit harsh but sometimes thats what gets the point across. 

mercymoon I'm glad you are taking the time and consideration to finding the right dog. If you meet him, like him and agree with what the breeder has to say then buy all means take him. We all just want you to know and be certain about what you might get into.

I'm sorry y'all got upset but Poodle people are passionate people and it tends to happen.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> mercymoon I'm glad you are taking the time and consideration to finding the right dog. If you meet him, like him and agree with what the breeder has to say then buy all means take him. We all just want you to know and be certain about what you might get into.
> 
> I'm sorry y'all got upset but Poodle people are passionate people and it tends to happen.


Thank you, purple...I am in no hurry to get one, I will just save my money 
until I find the dog I am looking for comes along with certain qualities.

I'm no longer upset, In my opinion I believe I've done mended my bridges
between everyone who posted I hope.

I thank everyone for their wise advice that was given on breeding, etc.


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## rmillstein (May 26, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Actually yes it has everything to do with breeding. I think the point Sivaro is trying to make is that you NEVER know exactly where those puppies you breed will end up. Like she said in the beginning he went to what she though was a wonderful home but look how he ended up.


But what does this have to do with mercymoon's situation? Sorry, I must be missing something.



Purple Poodle said:


> The pet owners here need to realize that the breed they love so much has a very bad reputation because of unscrupulous breeding. No it may not make you bad or mean but it does make you ignorant and you should care about the health of the breed you claim to love so much.


If you go back and read what I said, you'll see that I very specifically said that health is important. But I am sorry, I don't see other criteria as important. I'll give one example -- an apricot poodle with a brown nose. Horrors, to people who show dogs. To the rest of us? Irrelevant, as long as the dog is healthy. But that is just _my opinion_. I understand that some of you do care about those sorts of things. All I am asking is that you tolerate those beliefs -- you don't have to agree with them or like them, and we can even disagree about them. We just need to disagree about them politely, without, e.g., calling each other ignorant.

As far as I know, unscrupulous breeding is a problem with all breeds. No one is defending that here, especially not me.



Purple Poodle said:


> Also show dogs are just as much pets and companions as a rescued animal. I love my "fancy" show dog no more or no less then I love my rescued animals.


Of course you do. I never said otherwise. What I was trying to get you and others to realize is that that is ALL that some of us care about. And that we are on the forum, too, and we should all try to get along.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

rmillstein said:


> And what does Leo have to do with anything? He is a *mistreated* dog. It's awful, but it has nothing to do with breeding. Just because she breeds her dogs a certain way doesn't mean they will be mistreated. I agree 100% that knowing the dog's lineage and the genetic tests are important for breeding, but being of "show quality"? I am sorry, but I could not care less whether the dog was of the exact proportions required to be a show dog, or whether the fur or color was just right, or whatever. As far as I am concerned, those standards are arbitrary, and as long as the dog is healthy and well treated, that is all that matters. The breeders on this forum need to realize that not everyone here is a breeder and not everyone cares about the things that you care about. And that doesn't make us bad people or mean that we care less about poodles than you do.


What has Leo got to do with it hmm? Its a case of what Leo was used for, its a case of you let anyone get a dog on the main reg (breeding rights) then a new person breeds from them, sells the litter at a good price so they can recoup their losses and some end up in puppy farms cause the purchaser who has bought a dog that can be bred from had the wrong intensions in the first place.

And no, its not everyone right to breed. If your soul purpose is to just sell the litters for profit, cause I think breeding a litter is cute  My children need to experience life, is all the wrong reasons. 

What you dont realise rmillstein, is breeding to the standard is the right thing to do, if you dont pet ppl experience many a problem with their dog. Hey it may be genetically healthy for PRA, but with straight patellas, loose shoulders, goose neck, roach back and many other faults can cause serious problems to the dog. So if you dont care about how your dog is bred, be my guest, take on just anything. Just because we breed show dogs for ourself does not mean thats our intensions of breeding for others. Many make fantastic agility, obedience, flyball, endurance dogs cause they are well put together. Get pissed off all you like, I will state my views as I see them with or without your approval. Oh and if you think I was tough, you havnt seen nothing yet. I was infact quite mild. Sometime ppl need to see what I showed and be told how I said it to wake up to themselves. Some ppl just never learn at all once they have their minds set, some say what you want to hear. I didnt come down in the last rain shower.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

*sigh* Lets just end it with everyone has their own personal opinions
on the matter....no more fighting.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

rmillstein said:


> But what does this have to do with mercymoon's situation? Sorry, I must be missing something.


It has everything to do with it. People that set out to buy a poodle of bad quality and saying they need money are doing the wrong thing, not only by their breed but their poor dog they bought. I dont see that dogs should be profit, and some poor unsuspecting buyer like the OP buying cause they felt that the dog they bought was registered so therefore must be a good dog from a reputable breeder. 

My back was up about the answers she gave, and yes I responded to them. Maybe not to your liking but the way I know how. It either works or doesnt. She has stated that she will do the right thing now, and I responded nicely to that.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> *sigh* Lets just end it with everyone has their own personal opinions
> on the matter....no more fighting.


Its a discussion forum and this is what happens  Im over it, but she come in to say I was wrong with my post. Its all cool with me now, I was just responding to her post for better clarifycation.


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Yeah, I have been on several where quarrels have broken out between
the members, lol it just happens!

I don't think either of you are wrong for stating your pinions and standing 
up for what you believe, I am highly opinionated myself and never meant 
to insult you or any breeders here. I do still want to breed, but it will
be be for the right reasons...to improve the quality of the breed and
so forth.

When the right stud comes along I will get him!


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

rmillstein, mercymoon was buying a dog with the eventual intent to breed. It's in relevance to her situation because its has to do with breeding, its a hazard that most people don't think about. 

Color is in the eye of the beholder or in the case of puppies the buyer. I disagree with breeding for liver pigmented Apricots because it dilutes the color and can cause problems for future breeding. But like you said thats just my opinion. You can have an opinion and I respect that but by you saying you don't care about what show breeders bred for means you are ignorant. ALL good breeders should breed for the same thing. Its just some get fancy hair cuts and show names and others get dog parks and nicknames. I don't mind that people want to breed their dogs but as long as they do it right, e.g. health testing and consideration for structure and color.

I agree we need to get along and respect one another but the ball has to roll both ways.


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## rmillstein (May 26, 2008)

I still don't see what you are saying, sivaro, and I think your attitude is way out of line. But when I try to suggest that someone be a little more polite in expressing their opinion, and they defend their bad behavior -- well, that is when I am done talking with them. And I am done talking with you.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Thank you Mercymoon for being so understanding that we are all just concerned. We may come off strong at times but yes we all do have the breeds concerns at hand. I think everyone could argree. 

I do apologize if there were any hard feeling's. I do think you have made a good decision to wait and take your time finding the right stud. 

Oh and to everyone else .... all that health testing is normal ??? I thought most breeders test heart, hips, eyes and for AD. Those are the basic test's I know of for the US. (for Poodles)


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

JENN SECRETO said:


> Thank you Mercymoon for being so understanding that we are all just concerned. We may come off strong at times but yes we all do have the breeds concerns at hand. I think everyone could argree.
> 
> I do apologize if there were any hard feeling's. I do think you have made a good decision to wait and take your time finding the right stud.
> 
> Oh and to everyone else .... all that health testing is normal ??? I thought most breeders test heart, hips, eyes and for AD. Those are the basic test's I know of for the US. (for Poodles)



Your Welcome! I have some ideas on what I should ask and look for in
my future dog now.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

rmillstein said:


> I still don't see what you are saying, sivaro, and I think your attitude is way out of line. But when I try to suggest that someone be a little more polite in expressing their opinion, and they defend their bad behavior -- well, that is when I am done talking with them. And I am done talking with you.


*Sigh* Im not the only one that thinks you have the wrong attitude towards what us breeders breed for. But we wont go their


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

JENN SECRETO said:


> Oh and to everyone else .... all that health testing is normal ??? I thought most breeders test heart, hips, eyes and for AD. Those are the basic test's I know of for the US. (for Poodles)


Here is a list of what Miniature and Toy poodles should be tested for and here what Standards should be tested for.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

Thats not that much testing. Add on some blood work and thats what we tested our Amstaff's for. Isn't heart testing necessary for Poodles ?? I thought it was but I may be wrong. Thats an easy test anyhow. 

Thanks for the link .


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

why can't I see the pix? lol


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Pamela said:


> why can't I see the pix? lol


I deleted it, I got really mad when the breeder gave me some horrible
answers to the questions I asked her. I'm glad I didn't go through
with getting it.


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> I deleted it, I got really mad when the breeder gave me some horrible
> answers to the questions I asked her. I'm glad I didn't go through
> with getting it.










You go girl


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> You go girl



w00t, w00t!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> w00t, w00t!


I was going to say that, but wasnt sure if you guys speak that tongue


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

Sivaro said:


> I was going to say that, but wasnt sure if you guys speak that tongue


LOL, of course I do!


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## Sivaro (Sep 19, 2008)

mercymoon said:


> LOL, of course I do!


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