# Need your advice on using e-collars to train tpoos



## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

I wanted ya'lls advice on using e-collars to train tpoos. I consider my 17 month old girls to be 'bad as hell' and in serious need of training. [And I know it's all my fault.] I have called several trainers in my area and tomorrow we are going to have the first evaluation. This group uses e-collars of which I am not a fan. The trainers consist of military K9 unit handlers, state police K9 handlers, and members of the Presidential K9 Elite so I don't want them to be too harsh with my little girls, but they promise that the e-collar is the way to go. 
What are ya'lls thoughts?
{My girls need potty training, basic obedience-sit, stay, come, leave it, etc..., stop excessive barking, stop picking on the older lab, stop jumping, stop stealing food off our plates WHILE we are eating, stop getting on nightstand and chewing up watches, glasses, etc..., etc...}


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

You are probably going to get a lot of advice on this question. Not very many will recommend an electric collar, especially for a toy poodle.

My first advice is that you start confining your dogs to a pet safe area where they cannot steal food and destroy property. Use baby gates to separate your dogs while you are working on their issues.

And keep looking for trainers or a behaviorist that use positive methods. You do not want to make your dogs into fearful aggressive dogs who bites because of harsh training methods.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Just remember............usually it's the human that needs training first. Just because someone else trains your dog, it doesn't mean it is trained...it's is a 24/7 proposition! If consistency isn't adhered to, a dog will not remember a command! A e collar on a small dog is not the way to go unless you want a consistently shut down, scared, fearful, or biting animal JMO!!! 
If you don't want to join an obedience class, get an in-home positive reinforcement method (hopefully certified) dog trainer!


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

MollyMuiMa said:


> A e collar on a small dog is not the way to go unless you want a consistently shut down, scared, fearful, or biting animal JMO!!!
> If you don't want to join an obedience class, get an in-home positive reinforcement method (hopefully certified) dog trainer!


This is what I am afraid of. I like positive reinforcement training and the collar doesn't seem too positive to me. But, that's why I put the question out there.
I really admit that the failure of training is all on me. They only do what they have been allowed to get away with. It is time to change that.
I had another training facility contact a little while ago. They will take my pups for a week and do basic training and then we go to 6 private classes together. The fee starts at $800/a piece. I just want a well mannered pet. That seems expensive to me.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

That IS pricey but I bet if you look online you might be able to find an 'Obedience Club' within traveling distance that you can join, but again, you will have to go to classes and do 'homework' good for you for trying to change!!! In the meantime, there are plenty of utube videos to watch and books to read.............................Good Luck!!!!


P.S. Southern Maryland Dog Training Cub of Forestville is one....you can ask them if there is a club near you if this one isn't


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

No, no, no! You can get just as good or better results from positive reinforcement!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there are members here who have used e-collars, but i don't think i recall any of them using them on toys. it's my understanding that as with any training method, skill and timing of the trainer are paramount. kind of worried that the folks who are used to training big dogs will be clueless with regard to how to deal with toy dogs. it's my understanding that the newer e-collars have a buzz button option that makes a noise but doesn't deliver a shock. kind of a negative clicker. but the temptation to go to shock mode (there are supposed to be several levels) is there if the dog doesn't respond to the noise alone. i think i would check out various trainers - of whatever school - before forging ahead. serious trainers would probably let you see them at work before committing.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I would never use an e-collar on a small dog, and surely not on a sensitive and intelligent poodle. What you describe is just dogs having been raised by an unexperienced person who made every mistake in the book. It serves no purpose to have them trained somewhere else, because they will still do what they do in your house, just because they can. Don't throw your money out the window.

You need to learn, not them. Find someone who will teach you the basics of how to be and react in the presence of a dog. I guarantee you if you change your ways, your dogs will change just as fast.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I agree with Dechi, get someone to teach you to train your dog, and never every a e-collar, they are to fradigal for that type of training


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Kota&Tana'smom, let me ask you a question please. Two scenarios.

First one.
I am a stranger to you. I walk up and slap you in the face after very little contact between the two of us. What have you learned?

Second one.
You come to my cubicle at work, and I welcome you and usher you in, roll up a chair, and make space for your laptop. You are here to get some coaching on pivot tables, which your manager has suddenly decided are de rigueur for your job. You have no idea how or where to start, so you contacted me to ask me to share some info I know (and in return, surely there is much I can learn from you).

We launch Excel, and using an example you understand, I walk through creating a pivot table and how it can be used. And what it does and doesn't do. We try another example, and another. And then you give it a try on your laptop, again with some coaching (not forcing, deriding, snarking at you). You almost get it, and then with some suggestions, your first pivot table is looking back at you with a smile. Well, maybe not, but you have a lovely data summary in front of you and you're well on your way to providing your boss what she needs .

We try a few more, using examples from your job and you practice and practice, and during this time, it dawns on you exactly what's going on. Inside you, you have come to understand pivot tables. You begin to feel confident, and then do one with a new example completely on your own.

You own this knowledge. It is becoming deep inside you and you understand the how and why of it. Lashing with a whip or slapping a face cannot teach you (or me) how to create useful pivot tables. Taking the time and working through the process makes it yours.

You have loving, thinking, perceiving, apt, and precious Toy Poodles. Your decision to change things may have been made in an instant. Understanding and knowledge in humans and dogs are not attained in an instant. Rome has to be built, yet when it's built and the builders understand it from the ground up, it's solid. Don't be a facade builder by harsh, quick, punishment methods. Be a real builder of solid accomplishment and partnership for you, and for your pets.

Call tonight and cancel the meeting for tomorrow. If you pm me your specific location or post it here, I will find you some places to train.


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

Streetcar, thank you for your reply. I understand where you are coming from and I did cancel the appointment for tomorrow. I was not comfortable with the ecollar in the first place and I didn't get any replies that convinced me it was the right thing to do. I did call a couple other places in my area about group obedience classes. We RV alot and I would like to have our pups socialized also so I thought this would be a good thing to do with other people instead of having personal training. Thank you for taking the time to respond. We live in Waldorf, Charles County, MD in case you can find something I couldn't.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Kota&Tana'smom said:


> Streetcar, thank you for your reply. I understand where you are coming from and I did cancel the appointment for tomorrow. I was not comfortable with the ecollar in the first place and I didn't get any replies that convinced me it was the right thing to do. I did call a couple other places in my area about group obedience classes. We RV alot and I would like to have our pups socialized also so I thought this would be a good thing to do with other people instead of having personal training. Thank you for taking the time to respond. We live in Waldorf, Charles County, MD in case you can find something I couldn't.


You are so smart, dear lady, and my oh my, right there is what I can learn from you. My dream post winning the lottery, is to buy a class C RV and head out with my Tpoo and cat. I dream of following the show circuit and getting my own Tpoo to show . And of course, my precious kitteh deserves to travel in the best of style, including having the ability to use his litter box at his own convenience, no matter where we may be...

So maybe one of these days I will be asking you to coach me along...


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

Streetcar said:


> So maybe one of these days I will be asking you to coach me along...


Anytime...I'll be here. RVing is the best. We take our whole group with us and I don't have to worry about a thing except where we go to next.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Some of you know me and my attitude toward e-collars... I have no problem with them... on large dogs. I would be a shade wary of using them with a Toy.

Also, the problem with them is that they are used in training only because these are the only tools that these trainers know how to use. All their expertise in socializing dogs is thru e-collars. 

Got a dog u need to train? We've got the method. 'Cept it may be the only method that they know.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think you have made a very sensible decision in cancelling the e-collar appointment - a renowned behaviourist and dog trainer once said that to use an e-collar correctly and successfully you needed vast experience, outstanding observational skills and perfect timing - and that if you had those three things you did not need the collar!

It sounds to me from your first post that you are concentrating on the things you want your dogs to _stop_ doing. Have you thought through what you would like them to be doing instead? It is much easier to teach a dog an alternative, very rewarding behaviour than to keep yelling No! and expecting them just to stop. First, though, you need to learn how to teach, and that is where a good class comes in, or sessions with a qualified trainer who does not use forceful methods. Your dogs now have a history of finding the actions you don't like very rewarding - you will need to build an even better history of rewarding the actions you do like, and ensuring nothing good happens as a result of "naughtiness". I would also be looking at how much physical and mental exercise they are getting through the day - mine are much, much easier to live with when a couple of long off leash walks and some really interesting activities in between leave them happily snoozing and dreaming of squirrels and shops full of dog treats!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Kota&Tana'smom said:


> Streetcar, thank you for your reply. I understand where you are coming from and I did cancel the appointment for tomorrow. I was not comfortable with the ecollar in the first place and I didn't get any replies that convinced me it was the right thing to do. I did call a couple other places in my area about group obedience classes. We RV alot and I would like to have our pups socialized also so I thought this would be a good thing to do with other people instead of having personal training. Thank you for taking the time to respond. We live in Waldorf, Charles County, MD in case you can find something I couldn't.


I did some looking around . Here are some offerings in your general area. All these will train you with your dog, the best way to do it .

Starts tomorrow! Training and Support - Humane Society of Charles County

S & D K9 Rehab - Home

Dog Pride Holistic Animal Education for Dogs, Cats and Birds

C&C PALS - Home

Dog Training for Washington DC, Northern Virginia and Maryland. - Cooperative Paws Dog Training

The Coventry School ? for Dogs & their People

And for some good reading, head over to 4pawsu.com and click over to their library, which has tremendous articles, some from them, some linked from other sites. 4pawsu's trainer I know by guess you'd say second degree, through a wonderful dog person and trainer in the Sacramento area, and she is highly thought of. If you don't have it, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson would be a fantastic book for you. She addresses training and understanding from the dog's point of view, and her section on housetraining is one of the best writeups on the planet, imho.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> I think you have made a very sensible decision in cancelling the e-collar appointment - a renowned behaviourist and dog trainer once said that to use an e-collar correctly and successfully you needed vast experience, outstanding observational skills and perfect timing - and that if you had those three things you did not need the collar!
> 
> It sounds to me from your first post that you are concentrating on the things you want your dogs to _stop_ doing. Have you thought through what you would like them to be doing instead? It is much easier to teach a dog an alternative, very rewarding behaviour than to keep yelling No! and expecting them just to stop. First, though, you need to learn how to teach, and that is where a good class comes in, or sessions with a qualified trainer who does not use forceful methods. Your dogs now have a history of finding the actions you don't like very rewarding - you will need to build an even better history of rewarding the actions you do like, and ensuring nothing good happens as a result of "naughtiness". I would also be looking at how much physical and mental exercise they are getting through the day - mine are much, much easier to live with when a couple of long off leash walks and some really interesting activities in between leave them happily snoozing and dreaming of squirrels and shops full of dog treats!


 :adore:


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> Kota&Tana'smom, let me ask you a question please. Two scenarios.
> 
> First one.
> I am a stranger to you. I walk up and slap you in the face after very little contact between the two of us. What have you learned?
> ...





> And for some good reading, head over to 4pawsu.com and click over to their library, which has tremendous articles, some from them, some linked from other sites. 4pawsu's trainer I know by guess you'd say second degree, through a wonderful dog person and trainer in the Sacramento area, and she is highly thought of. If you don't have it, Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson would be a fantastic book for you. She addresses training and understanding from the dog's point of view, and her section on housetraining is one of the best writeups on the planet, imho.



:adore:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First off good for you for cancelling this disaster in the making rip off. Ridiculous price IMO.

I know your area since we used to travel there quite frequently. There are Petco and PetSmarts near you. Go to one of them if you want. Make sure you have two people to handle the dogs separately. I also have been to an Ian Dunbar seminar at Coventry School in Jessup. It is a fabulous facility. Even better if you can get yourself there, but I know what traffic is like in your area and can understand if that is impractical

And to second something that was said earlier, you made this situation for yourself. You have to be responsible to your dogs to fix it. You need to be patient, persistent and consistent in how you work with your dogs. Just because they are small doesn't absolve them from having good manners. I am sorry to sound harsh, but you asked for these kinds of responses by saying you knew this was your fault. I've seen too many good dogs who were wild because their owners said, "but they are just little dogs, what harm can they do?"


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Owner alleges animal abuse by local dog training facility | abc7chicago.com

Be very careful!


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

N2Mischief said:


> Owner alleges animal abuse by local dog training facility | abc7chicago.com
> 
> Be very careful!


O-M-G!!! This is the type of facility that wouldn't have to worry about a law suite or police investigation if they hurt my baby. :angry:
Thanks for the information. I'm all upset and angry now. I have been watching YouTube videos all morning on training and have talked to several people in my area. I think I am going to take them to the facility that has groomed them since I got them. They have been going to the owner of this store since they just started with the face, feet, and fanny clip. My girls love the ladies there. They give all different types of classes and I talked to them last night and a obedience class starts on 9-12. The actual trainer, Julie is going to call me tonight so we can talk. Hopefully, this will work out. At least I know these ladies and we can all work together.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

_Some people_ are soooo harsh.:2in1:

Say...in all your videos, did you come across Kikopup videos on You Tube? She's awesome! And I second getting the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. Fabulous! I commend you for coming here and asking for advice and_ taking _it. You've got the best chance of turning things around.


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> _Some people_ are soooo harsh.:2in1:
> 
> Say...in all your videos, did you come across Kikopup videos on You Tube? She's awesome! And I second getting the book, Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. Fabulous!


Thanks for the advice on Kikopup. I have watched several of her videos since you told me about her and she is great. I am taking everything in that y'all are advicing me on. The Culture Clash book looks very interesting and I plan on picking it up or ordering it very soon. I joined this group for ya'lls advice so I am going to do everything possible to change my ways and do what is best for my girls. I can't thank everyone enough for their advice.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:


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## Kota&Tana'smom (Aug 27, 2015)

Kota&Tana'smom said:


> I think I am going to take them to the facility that has groomed them since I got them. They have been going to the owner of this store since they just started with the face, feet, and fanny clip. My girls love the ladies there. They give all different types of classes and I talked to them last night and a obedience class starts on 9-12. The actual trainer, Julie is going to call me tonight so we can talk. Hopefully, this will work out. At least I know these ladies and we can all work together.


Julie, the trainer, just called. We talked about the training ME & my girls need and it seems like they teach it all in the basic obedience class for $125 per dog. I don't think that's bad. It's a 6 week course for 1 hour each week. If I want her to potty train them, she comes to the house for 4 sessions to teach them to ring a bell and that's an extra $300. I think I'm going to work on the potty training myself. I have one more place to talk to about obedience training before I make a decision on where I'm taking them. Julie does all her classes inside in a classroom and this other place is all done outside. I just want to see what the differences are in the two before I make up my mind. Heres Julie's
Profile: *Offering positive dog training and behavioral modification in the Tri-County area through private in-home lessons and basic, puppy, and C.G.C. classes held at the Humane Society of Charles County.*
I specialize in problem solving and aggression rehabilitation. I am a professional member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers, an American Kennel Club Canine Good Citizen evaluator, and an American Red Cross Pet First Aid and C.P.R. instructor, and a volunteer trainer for several rescue groups.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That sounds much better than where you were thinking about going! I think you might want to do the classroom training since your girls sound very distracted at this point.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Yeah, sounds good to me too !


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