# Reposting: False Pedigree



## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I don't know much about it but from a quick google search it affects all breeds so not sure why it would need to be an outcross to another breed? How do you know it was rufus and not the bitch that passed on the gene?


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Mysticrealm said:


> I don't know much about it but from a quick google search it affects all breeds so not sure why it would need to be an outcross to another breed? How do you know it was rufus and not the bitch that passed on the gene?


I was told that poodles WILL be F/F, but maybe they were incorrect(they are not an expert)? I have emailed AKC, but since it's the weekend I don't expect to hear from them until Monday at the earliest. I don't know for a fact that the bitch isn't the carrier, but since Spot tested F/IC it seems to be the simplest explanation that it passed through the sire. I wonder how recent testing for furnishings is? Maybe poodles have carried it for a long time, but only rarely would a poodle with an incorrect coat type be born, and then culled???


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I'm honestly not sure but the two things I've looked at haven't said that poodles are always FF but like I said I'm really not familiar with it.
https://www.centerforanimalgenetics...e-testing-for-dogs/improper-coat-furnishings/

https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/tests/details/174/?breed=20


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Mysticrealm said:


> I'm honestly not sure but the two things I've looked at haven't said that poodles are always FF but like I said I'm really not familiar with it.
> https://www.centerforanimalgenetics...e-testing-for-dogs/improper-coat-furnishings/
> 
> https://www.pawprintgenetics.com/products/tests/details/174/?breed=20


Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I wouldn't think it would be very easy to fix a dominant trait without testing every dog, and since the test hasn't been around that long, and certainly not everyone uses it so.....Plus I have been in touch with Spot's breeder and they have been confirming your thoughts. So hopefully AKC will get back to me first thing on Monday and I can stop freaking out!


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

the only info I can get on the internet about poodles always being FF comes from doodle breeders so I don't know the accuracy of that information seeing as where it's coming from.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I don't know anything about the IC gene. But there is a very good Poodle Genetics and Tests Demystified Facebook page. The administrator is a geneticist and I bet she could give you a good answer.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Hi Guest. I like dabbling in dog genetics, and you sounded very worried, so I looked into this. Hope this helps. 



Guest said:


> ... Ok, so my pup "Avery" comes from F/F parents, "Brandy" and "Jax"...


With both parents, Brandy & Jax, being F/F, according to the link to PawPrint Genetics provided by MR:

_This dog does not carry the Mutation for improper coat and will therefore have furnishings (proper coat). However, the overall coat type of this dog is dependent on the combination of this dog's genotypes at the L, Cu, and IC loci. This dog will pass F (furnishings, proper coat) on to 100% of its offspring._ 

Thus, your puppy should have the proper coat, and if bred with another dog that doesn't have the mutation, those pups will also have proper coats.



Guest said:


> ...Brandy [your dog's mother] was sired by "Spot" [your dog's maternal grandfather], as was "Rufus". Rufus passed a IC gene onto one of his pups which was discovered after it had a DNA panel done.


This is confusing. You didn't say where Rufus fits in the family tree, e.g., Brandy could not have been sired by both Spot and Rufus. Is Rufus the father of Spot? If so, this would make him the maternal great grandfather to your puppy. Would it look like this? 

Rufus (great grandfather ?) > Spot (grandfather, carrier) > Jax (father, non-carrier) > Your puppy

In the case of extra eyebrow and longer mustache this chart pic came from DDC testing on proper/improper coat:

​


Guest said:


> ...Sooooo now I'm worried that MY pup is affected by this because the common ancestor, Spot, also carries it...


You already said your pup's parents Brandy and Jax are *not* carriers. Have you seen the genetic report on them to verify this or taking their word for it? 

If not, and you don't want to ask, you can do a cheek swab test for $58 thru Vet DNA Center/DCC (link), or $80 thru Paw Print Genetics (link).




Guest said:


> My understanding is that IC could have only come in through an outcross to another breed of dog, whether intentional or not.


Poodles have evolved in appearance thru human interventions to what we see today. See pictures here and do a Google Images search for Art History of Poodles. 




Guest said:


> ...Which would mean all descendants will have their AKC registration revoked, right? We're talking possibly hundreds of dogs because from talking to Spot's breeders they think it may have been his sire. Which was a UKC CH and a VERY popular stud...


I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt they'd revoke the registrations of hundreds of AKC registered poodles going back generations over one or more of them having an improper coat gene. If they did, this would include _your_ puppy.

Their FAQ sheet says 
_"Can DNA testing determine the breed of a dog? 
No. AKC DNA testing does not determine the breed of a dog."_



Guest said:


> Thank you so much for taking the time to reply. I wouldn't think it would be very easy to fix a dominant trait without testing every dog, and since the test hasn't been around that long, and certainly not everyone uses it so.....Plus I have been in touch with Spot's breeder and they have been confirming your thoughts. So hopefully AKC will get back to me first thing on Monday and I can stop freaking out!


Your pup's parent's don't carry the gene, so no need to panic. And, if grandfather Spot is a healthy fine poodle and champion, and I was his owner and learned he's a carrier of an improper coat, I would still breed him with a contract that states: 

1) The dam first must be tested and clear of the improper coat gene, and have all puppies tested for this fault before papers would be given, 
2) Puppies that test as positive or carriers would have to be sold as pets only with limited registration and had to be spayed or neutered, with the new owners informed their pup will have an extra shaggy face. 

Extra shaggy eyebrows and facial hair for me is not a deal breaker since a regular grooming will not reveal it, and most puppy buyers just want a nice, _healthy_, cute poodle. Depending on the overall coat texture, "improper coat" might even make for a cute teddy bear cut. 

​


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

peppersb said:


> I don't know anything about the IC gene. But there is a very good Poodle Genetics and Tests Demystified Facebook page. The administrator is a geneticist and I bet she could give you a good answer.


Thanks for the tip. I will be following up on that.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Vita
I HAVE seen the testing results myself, so that's certainly a relief. But at this point I'm really just confused as to why the person who told me that purebred poodles CAN'T carry 'ic' was thinking that. Rufus comes into things because he is also a carrier of 'ic' and the half brother of Brandy. So I'm just wanting to know if my pup's maternal line has been compromised with a non-poodle cross. Which is what 'ic' in the lines would indicate IF 'ic' is never found in purebred poodles. If 'ic' is something that poodles can carry for then I've freaked out for no reason; which would make me quite happy actually, lol.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

So it's like this: CH stud > Spot > Brandy > My pup. Rufus is: CH stud > Spot (bred with a different bitch) > Rufus . Spot and Rufus are known 'ic' carriers. Brandy and my pup are known to be F/F.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

Ask about it in the facebook group. The admin will get back to you quickly but from what I remember in my genetics groups many poodles actually test as IC carriers..


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I found this info,but its all foreign to me.
https://www.pwdca.org/assets/docs/library/impropercoatcourierarticle.pdf


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks for that article. Since Portuguese Water Dogs are one of the founding breeds of the Poodle (if I'm not mistaken), I don't know how it would have been bred out of Poodles entirely without testing for it, and apparently the test has only been developed in this decade. So you would think some poodles could still carry for it :dontknow: . I did contact the admin of that group and she was very helpful, but even she said there is not a definitive answer as to whether poodles occasionally carry for IC. She said it would be rare, but it's impossible to say that purebred poodles CAN'T carry for it. She also said that AKC isn't going to do anything to investigate unless it's a question of false paternity. Soooo, I guess that's the end of the road on that inquiry....


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

Vita said:


> 2) Puppies that test as positive or carriers would have to be sold as pets only with limited registration and had to be spayed or neutered, with the new owners informed their pup will have an extra shaggy face.
> 
> Extra shaggy eyebrows and facial hair for me is not a deal breaker since a regular grooming will not reveal it, and most puppy buyers just want a nice, _healthy_, cute poodle. Depending on the overall coat texture, "improper coat" might even make for a cute teddy bear cut.


If what I read is correct, improper coat means the opposite of a shaggy face, in other words, poodles normally come with furnishings, meaning they have a shaggy face and eyebrows. So a poodle with improper coat would not have a shaggy face, even if you let it grow out.

Also, again if what I read is correct, poodles don’t carry the IC gene, so its presence is pretty much proof of a non-poodle in the pedigree, probably quite recent, since after several generations this recessive trait would be bred out. This seems to be confirmed by the fact that on the Net it’s all “doodle” breeders who are concerned about IC in their dogs, and you never hear about IC among poodle breeders.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Ethan, the reason this is such a tricky thing to puzzle out is because recessive traits can hide for generation after generation without being detected. It's dominant traits that are easily detected. Which is why Merle as an original color in poodles is essentially impossible. To even try to remove a recessive trait such as IC without the genetic tests we now have you would have to not only remove the affected individual, but their parents, siblings, grandparents and their other offspring, etc..... I mean it would be almost impossible, which is why the PWD breeders could not do it.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

If I understand this correctly, recessive traits can be bred out by not breeding two dogs from lines known to carry the recessive trait. So when you breed two dogs that carry a recessive trait, there is a 50% chance of a particular pup carrying the recessive trait; while breeding a dog with the recessive trait to a dog without it, there is only a 25% chance of the trait being passed on. So after multiple generations breeding only dogs from lines not known to carry the recessive, with each generation being 75% likely to not pass on the gene, chances are pretty good that eventually neither dog is carrying it. Breeds like the PWD have the recessive trait spread all over, so it’s quite difficult to sort it out. Poodles, however, don’t have the problem, so the chances of it being found on both sides are practically infinitesimal!


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Ethan said:


> If I understand this correctly, recessive traits can be bred out by not breeding two dogs from lines known to carry the recessive trait. So when you breed two dogs that carry a recessive trait, there is a 50% chance of a particular pup carrying the recessive trait; while breeding a dog with the recessive trait to a dog without it, there is only a 25% chance of the trait being passed on. So after multiple generations breeding only dogs from lines not known to carry the recessive, with each generation being 75% likely to not pass on the gene, chances are pretty good that eventually neither dog is carrying it. Breeds like the PWD have the recessive trait spread all over, so it’s quite difficult to sort it out. Poodles, however, don’t have the problem, so the chances of it being found on both sides are practically infinitesimal!


Unfortunately you are mistaken. If you breed two carriers of a recessive gene you would end up with approx. 1/4 affected, 1/2 as carriers, and only 1/4 would not inherit the gene at all. If you bred a carrier to a non-carrier approx. 1/2 would be free of the gene and 1/2 would be carriers, though none would be affected.


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## Ethan (May 23, 2017)

I find it difficult at times to wrap my brain around some of these concepts, and I’m still learning! After writing out some diagrams, I came up with the same thing you said. I wasn’t considering the other cases, only the case of IC/F (unaffected carrier) with F/F (non-carrier). I was looking at it wrong and thought only a quarter of the offspring would be carriers, but it appears that half of them will be carriers, meaning each generation will be essentially the same as the last, unless you can test to find out which ones are carriers and avoid breeding them. If you can’t test for carriers then you have to avoid any dog with affected dogs in its background.

But tell me if I have this right: 
IC/IC (affected) + F/F (non-carrier) = 100% IC/F (unaffected carrier);
IC/F + IC/F = 50% IC/F, 25% IC/IC and 25% F/F;
IC/IC + IC/F = 50% IC/F and 50% IC/IC;
IC/F + F/F = 50% IC/F and 50% F/F.


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2019)

Yes, those combinations are correct. It can be very hard to avoid recessive genes just by avoiding certain lines. It just depends on the other qualities of a dog that affect how often they were bred. This has happened in other breeds with recessive genes for diseases with devastating effect. If a prime stud (like a CH) is a carrier it can spread very far and compromise lots of lines quickly. In this specific case of IC in poodles it either was never introduced into the breed, or only introduced in lines that were not as successful as others since we haven't seen it causing problems like in the PWD.


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## Cecy (Oct 2, 2021)

Mysticrealm said:


> I don't know much about it but from a quick google search it affects all breeds so not sure why it would need to be an outcross to another breed? How do you know it was rufus and not the bitch that passed on the gene?


Is so confusing because if the parents are FF, where the IC came from... And also Rufus appeared out of nowhere...


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## Cecy (Oct 2, 2021)

Guest said:


> I was told that poodles WILL be F/F, but maybe they were incorrect(they are not an expert)? I have emailed AKC, but since it's the weekend I don't expect to hear from them until Monday at the earliest. I don't know for a fact that the bitch isn't the carrier, but since Spot tested F/IC it seems to be the simplest explanation that it passed through the sire. I wonder how recent testing for furnishings is? Maybe poodles have carried it for a long time, but only rarely would a poodle with an incorrect coat type be born, and then culled???


They are born with what appears to be furnishings, but genetically are FI , so you can't "cull " because you won't know unless you test for furnishings


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Please realize that AKC does not deal with any genetic conditions other than whether or not the dog is purebred. It is simply a registry. It depends upon breeders to submit correct information about the sire and dam of a litter.


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