# Question for our agility, obedience people



## Fond of Poodles

Callie started agility last night, and it was a mixed result class.

Some background on her personality: She is a soft dog, not particularly friendly with strangers, takes her time to warm up to them. She has never met a dog she didn't like and is quite confident and mischievous interacting with them. She is not food motivated, in fact other than effusive, energetic praise (which doesn't work for agility), I have yet to find a motivator. At 3, she still submissive urinates with new visitors to our house, and occasionally in excitement when greeting us. She was shown to her Can. Ch. but she didn't particularly like being shown, she's the kind of dog that "goes dead" in the ring, unless she's in the mood. She just sort of shuts down, both when she is asked to do something she doesn't want, or doesn't understand. 

The reason I put her in agility was that it is off leash, she is very energetic, and bored. My 2 other dogs are seniors and she's wearing them out, in fact Duke our greyhound doesn't really want much to do with her anymore. She is physically very fit, and structurally sound. She is shy with people so I thought that the one on one type of work we'd be doing in agility would work with her personality.

What I didn't consider is that we have to work with the trainer to teach her the exercises. For example, last night we tried walking over the ladder, with me walking beside Callie on lead, and the trainer bent over in front of her trying to lure her over the obstacle. Didn't happen! I thought it was because she was afraid of the trainer, and no amount of food will lure her to a person if she doesn't want to go. That being said I did get her trained to "stand" for exam in the ring with no leaning back, tail dropping, or looking over her shoulder.

So jumping ahead to today. We were doing clicker training, me clicking, then feed, trying to get her to respond. She couldn't be bothered. She was force fed while sick and I'm wondering if this has something to do with it. She just walks away, no matter the food. If I offer it freely without the clicker, she will take it, but if I try to get any "behaviour" out of her like looking at me or just turning her head towards me, she drops her tail and walks away. She is quite spoiled.

We did stair training today, and after she did it once, she walked away, when I called her back, she piddled on the floor. Honestly, I wasn't communicating any anger, stress etc. I was happy and upbeat, and trying to lure her with food.

Any words of wisdom, or similar experience?


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## Countryboy

When I was training Spud in the Agility field we used to do it mostly on leash. U can do all but the Tunnel that way. *And a Hoop, if u use one.*

But that's not really yr problem, eh? 

For exercise . . u say that Callie's good with other dogs. Could u get her out to run with some companions periodically? It tires them more than most recognized Dog Sports.

And with Sport training . . I have some of the same problems as u with Tonka . . . no food motivation. It makes him hard to train. And, with a 7 year old dog, he's doing nothing that he doesn't like doing.  lol

But it turns out that he likes to chase things . . Squirrels . . other animals . . or maybe even a cloth attached to a moving line. So I'm gonna try him this season on Lure Coursing.


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## fjm

Has she ever been punished - even just with a scolding or similar - for getting something wrong? I think some dogs decide the risk of getting it wrong can outweigh the reward for possibly getting it right. As you say, her behaviour is signalling anxiety with the turning away and submissive urinating. Having said that, I really do sympathise - Sophy hated jumping. She learned to love the A-frame and the dog walk, was OK with tunnels, but jumping - forget it! As for weaving, she sat down and looked at me as if I was totally barmy for even suggesting that going in and out of poles and having to tread on bits of hard metal to do so was better than simply running straight past them. And the more stressed I got about it, the less motivated she was! In the end we just went for a lovely walk at the seaside instead.

I think I would look at the agility class as a way of building up her confidence, and ask the trainer to help you concentrate on that. It may mean that at first she spends most of her time observing, or doing stuff she already knows and is at ease with (Sit, Down, Stand ...) while being around other dogs and people. It may be that watching the various methods people use to reward their dogs - food, toys, games - you hit on something that really works for her. Perhaps you will both learn to love agility - or lure coursing - or heelwork to music, or perhaps you too will end up going for lovely walks at the seaside. The important thing is that you both enjoy what you are doing, and enjoy doing it together.

If you are really keen to do agility, Susan Garrett has many excellent tips for getting dogs motivated to enjoy learning it.


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## liljaker

frm: As for weaving, she sat down and looked at me as if I was totally barmy for even suggesting that going in and out of poles and having to tread on bits of hard metal to do so was better than simply running straight past them. And the more stressed I got about it, the less motivated she was! In the end we just went for a lovely walk at the seaside instead.

I love the way you said that ---- too funny, but how true.


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## Jility

Dogs like this are difficult to train, but it is not impossible. Right now I have a 2 year old that is petrified of everything. She came that way. I bred the litter and took her because she had a screw loose and I didn't want to put her with anyone else because I knew she would be a very tough dog to motivate and train. She wouldn't play with toys and she acted as though I beat her daily. She has never been scolded or punished and we use ONLY positive methods in our training. Before she came into my life, had I seen her with anyone else, I would assume she had been abused.
My dog is ok with people but petrified of other dogs and many other things. She will bolt, projectile urinate and fear snap. Susan Garrett asked me to write a guest blog about her last year. If you are interested, you can read more about her on Susan's blog. Stressing in the Real World | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog 
The Road to Recovering from Stress | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog 
Finding the Joy | Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog 

My first question to you is how tall is your dog and how much does she weigh? Most dogs that are not interested in treats are too heavy. Even a couple of extra pounds will make a huge difference in motivation for food. For instance, we have 6 standard Poodles and here are their heights and weights:
23" - 41 pounds
23.25" - 42 pounds
25.5" - 48 pounds
25.5" - 48.5 pounds
19.5" - 30 pounds
21.75" - 40 pounds
So you can see they are very lean. They are also very fit.
I would do all your training before the dog is fed. We feed raw and our dogs get a 1/2 pound premade patty twice a day. The two larger dogs get a little more with each meal. We train first thing in the morning when they are really hungry.
We use mostly toys to train, but my young dog had to be taught to like toys. She learned to love the ball, so that is what I use. I do use food for stationary behaviors. 
I would teach your dog to love the clicker. Do VERY simple behaviors at first. Do things she knows so she learns to associate the clicker with nice things. I shaped my puppy to back, go through a ladder, stand on things, etc.
If you show any disappointment at all, your dog will lose interest. You must not judge her or be unhappy in any way. Just smile and have fun!
I never thought my young dog would be able to do agility because of her terrible fears. Once she learned to love the ball, she was able to train and work in public. We have a long way to go, but she is getting there. Here is a link to het third time in the ring (getting her novice Jumper title) 



If I were you, I would take some private lessons with a clicker trainer. My young dog is insane for the Italian meatballs that Costco sells in the frozen food department. They don't have onion in them. I cut them up very small.
Good luck, don't give up and SMILE when you are training .


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## fjm

Jility - could you add links to the next blog post(s)? I find what you say so interesting, and I am sure it would be helpful for all owners of shy dogs, not just those wanting to do agility.


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## JE-UK

How necessary is it to your trainer that everyone progress at the same speed? Sometimes, the pressure can come from others. I'd explain to the trainer that you have no agenda, no timeline to work to, and just sit out exercises where she seems uninterested, for now. Is there a particular bit that she DOES like? Mine thinks weaves are boring and is still a bit wary of the seesaw, but LOVES to jump and LOVES the dog walk, so I try to ensure that when he does weave, it's followed by a couple of jumps as a reward. If she likes jumps and tunnels, stick with that for a while and build on that enjoyment.

Another idea ... I think you can build the value of food rewards sometimes by using them to train something the dog both understands and enjoys. In other words, get the clicker out and work on something easy, while rewarding heavily with food.

What food have you tried? I have seen people have success with some odd food rewards .... squeezy cheese in a tube or yoghurt poured into a squeeze bottle. My two never-fail ones are chicken skin fried crisp and broken into pieces, and leftover crispy duck from a Chinese meal. Doggie crack!


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## tortoise

A professional trainer would put her away for a few months. She's only learning new ways to not cooperate. An in-kennel trainer would have he live with no social interaction for a month, ration food. At the end of that time, she'll be motivated to work for food and people. No refusing.

I'm assuming you won't put her up, but you're teaching her bad things while struggling in this class. Take a break. Re-train at home. Eliminate lures. Feed her regular food for treats. When she shuts down take the food away. Try again tomorrow.

She has all her needs fufilled outside of class. Why should she bother to work for another piece of food?


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## fjm

tortoise said:


> She has all her needs fufilled outside of class. Why should she bother to work for another piece of food?


Because it's fun? And if it is not fun, why do it? If a dog has to know things to save its life, then it is important that they are taught, and learned well. If a dog is truly important to the owner's livelihood, then it is important that the dog can be trained to do the necessary tasks, and choosing a dog for its ability and trainability is crucial. But most of the activities we pet owners undertake with our dogs are for fun, or for the owner's benefit (conformation, obedience, agility, rally ... I bet the dog doesn't count the points and rosettes, or celebrate the titles!) - if the dog does not enjoy them, why push it? I cannot think of ANYTHING that would motivate me to go potholing in tiny, flooded channels deep underground, or climb vertical rock faces up a mountain. Fortunately I don't need to! Work on the relationship first, and from there find things that light up both your lives. No need for solitary confinement, or withholding food. Just build on the things you both enjoy.


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## tortoise

Exactly. *The dog isn't having fun.* Choices are 1. Quit, and 2. Quit and withihold everything the dog finds motivating for an extended time before trying again.

I'm not asking anyone to do #2. I know that doesn't fit within what pet trainers find to be reasonable. But is does work!

The situation is NOT WORKING and is likely to get worse. Maybe you'll find some wierd way to motivate your dog. But beware it will cause more problems later. "What? No Cheese Whiz? I'm not going to sit." "You want me to lie down for_ praise_? Are you crazy?" You could lose your relationship with your dog and all the things that used to motivate it.

You know why she's not really suited for it. Let he be herself. If you want to train agility, do it at home and much more slowly. Click/treat is powerful stuff. You can probably train it. But the class situation is a train wreck.


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## Fond of Poodles

Thank you for your replies and input. To clarify, Callie has had only 1 class, and 1 day at home training. I suspected before signing up for the class that we would have to find a way to work around her lack of food motivation and her "easily hurt feelings", . However, she does LOVE to jump, to go over obstacles, and to learn new things in our home environment. I'm just hoping to channel that energy and joy into a positive working relationship. We had a successful session last evening using no food, but lots of gentle, encouraging praise. I will get a video up, so you can see her body language, and mine.

*
@Countryboy, lol! *This girl has the stamina of a racehorse! Physically it is almost impossible to tire her out! She has play dates with other dogs, walks, visits to unfamiliar places, etc...She will sleep for a very short time, then she's raring to go. Work that causes her a small amount of stress, and to use her brain however does tire her out somewhat. That's why we've chosen something "new", something that requires her to use her brain. Good luck w/Tonka and lure coursing, would love to hear how it goes and see pictures!

*@fjm* – I wouldn't say that she has been "scolded" for getting something wrong per se. She has been forced (not forcefully) to do things she doesn't like or doesn't want to do, such as being groomed, bathed, brought to the vet, etc. I have never struck any of my dogs, ever. I am a gentle person particularly where my animals are concerned, and if anything I am guilty of spoiling her, and catering to her personality. I think that I may be part of the problem, lol. "looked at me as if I was totally barmy", lol, I know that expression quite well, she gives it to me all the time! Thank you for the reminder that I need to build her confidence. I think I may have had this idea that she would effortlessly be able and willing to do the exercises, this has given me some new insight into her personality, and I will take your advice to heart and remember to have fun with her regardless of how "well" we do, ! I will also Google Susan Garrett, thanks for sharing!

*
@Jility *– thank you for the encouragement and hope! I will read those links! She is physically very fit, all muscle and at prime weight. She had surgery in December, and had lost a considerable amount of weight, she is 25", and 46 lbs. She has always been a picky eater, and never food motivated. I've tried changing her diet, changing the times she is fed, she literally will not eat if you put her food down twice a day for limited time, she eats when SHE wants and that's that (my little brat, lol). I've learned to live with it, and she is now a free feeder. I do withhold food on class days, and do training before I put her food down in the AM. I'm trying with the clicker, and trying to maintain a positive happy demeanor at all times during training. I'm more frustrated that I'm doing something wrong, rather than her. She's a smart cookie, and I definitely think you have it right in that aspect, she picks up very easily on what I'm feeling! Loved the video and the fact that you didn't give up on your dog!


*@JE-UK *– No, the trainers are great, the pressure was coming from myself! They did exactly as you advised, had her cross the obstacle, take a look at it, try and walk over it (ladder on the ground), when she balked for the 2nd time, they suggested she watch. As it was only the first class, we haven't progressed past the ladder and the steps, lol. She loves praise, preferably exuberant, high pitched praise, but I think I would distract the other dogs in the class were I to use that method, lol. She loves the jumps and has played on them before, and I look forward to training on them. As to training heavily with food, the problem is that no matter what kind of food (and i've tried an extensive list, lol), she very, very quickly becomes bored with it. Note to self: Find Callie's "doggie crack", lol!


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## Fond of Poodles

@tortoise – My main purpose in training her in agility is to have fun, second to build her confidence, and for us to have an outing that we enjoy together. She is not an un cooperative dog, merely a soft one who has not had much asked of her in the way of structured training. I don't quite understand what you are suggesting "no social interaction for a month, ration food"? That seems downright cruel to me, forgive me if I'm misunderstand what you are suggesting? This was our first class, there is no damage done, we are both learning something, and benefiting from it. I do do as you suggest in terms of "when she shuts down take the food (treat/lure) away, and try again another time". I believe however that all her needs are not being fulfilled out of class, my opinion of my dog is that she would benefit from some brain work, it's just up to me to come up with a way of communicating with her that she understands and responds to. I never said she wasn't having fun? She did enjoy the class, lol. I never chastised her, her tail was up and she was bounding around in her normal silly way. I don't believe you had enough information from my short post to make the apparent judgements you've made. The class in most definitely not a train wreck, where would you have gotten this idea? The lure/food/reward is merely used as a tool to teach, it will, of course be weaned and very quickly. People don't run around the course with food/lure flying everywhere. I'm willing to listen if you have something constructive to offer, but I think at this point, your solution was excessively harsh. Though I may have misunderstood, as the internet isn't always the most effective way to communicate.

Colina


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## Rowan

tortoise said:


> A professional trainer would put her away for a few months. She's only learning new ways to not cooperate. An in-kennel trainer would have he live with no social interaction for a month, ration food. At the end of that time, she'll be motivated to work for food and people. No refusing.
> 
> I'm assuming you won't put her up, but you're teaching her bad things while struggling in this class. Take a break. Re-train at home. Eliminate lures. Feed her regular food for treats. When she shuts down take the food away. Try again tomorrow.
> 
> She has all her needs fufilled outside of class. Why should she bother to work for another piece of food?





> Posted by *Tortoise*:
> Exactly. The dog isn't having fun. Choices are 1. Quit, and 2. Quit and withihold everything the dog finds motivating for an extended time before trying again.
> 
> I'm not asking anyone to do #2. I know that doesn't fit within what pet trainers find to be reasonable. But is does work!
> 
> The situation is NOT WORKING and is likely to get worse. Maybe you'll find some wierd way to motivate your dog. But beware it will cause more problems later. "What? No Cheese Whiz? I'm not going to sit." "You want me to lie down for praise? Are you crazy?" You could lose your relationship with your dog and all the things that used to motivate it.
> 
> You know why she's not really suited for it. Let he be herself. If you want to train agility, do it at home and much more slowly. Click/treat is powerful stuff. You can probably train it. But the class situation is a train wreck.


I'm sorry, *Tortoise*, but I have to be brutally honest here. But before I post, let me add that I've read other posts of yours in which you offered training "advice" so I'm not basing my response solely on this one post. And, let me assure you that I can read and comprehend English and I've carefully considered your posts. (I'm still shaking my head.) You seem to jump to the defensive when people don't agree with you and accuse them of lacking such skills so I wanted to establish that fact up front. 

First things first. _Worst case scenario much? _You seem to jump to the absolute extreme without considering the circumstances. The OP didn't say her dog was miserable or a defiant. She said she was having some motivational and focus issues. Your tactics are akin to shooting a mosquito with a .45. 

You previously advocated using a shock collar on a four-month-old puppy and starving dogs to ensure compliance. Here it seems you're suggesting that a professional trainer "_would have he live with no social interaction for a month, ration food. At the end of that time, she'll be motivated to work for food and people. No refusing._" and that you have no qualms with this method. I know you said in a later post that you don't think the OP or a pet trainer will find these methods _reasonable_, so then why offer it as a viable suggestion? 

The OP is training a beloved pet to enjoy agility and isn't training a bomb detection dog for Army EOD. Yes, I do realize that drug detection dogs, etc., undergo rigorous training--I know this because I've worked with them while on the job. 

I agree with *Fond of Poodles*. I find your suggestions to be somewhat cruel not to mention extreme, considering the circumstances. Hell, I consider it extreme under any circumstances. If you must torture your dog--starve or lock them away in solitary confinement--to get them interested in agility, what is the point? Where is the enjoyment for dog or owner? Training is supposed to be a partnership. Your suggestions sound more like a concentration camp and it reminds me of my days in Marine Corp boot camp. You seem to employ a "comply or else" mentality and I _really _don't get that. 

I'm also concerned that novices or lurkers are going to walk away with some potentially dangerous advice. I only hope that people read all the posts within certain threads and do their research because I sincerely hope nobody would "lock their dog away for a month with no social interaction" just because they failed to perform a sit/stay or agility maneuver. I also hope that nobody would starve their puppies to ensure food motivation during training. That's truly sad.

I won't even get into shock collars because we've been there, done that. 

What I'm trying to say--what I'm asking--is that you consider the situation(s) carefully before you post because I feel the advice you're offering is borderline irresponsible. I'm sorry, but you actually scare me with your ideas and that's saying a lot.


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## tortoise

Fond of Poodles said:


> She just walks away, no matter the food. If I offer it freely without the clicker, she will take it, but if I try to get any "behaviour" out of her like looking at me or just turning her head towards me, she drops her tail and walks away. She is quite spoiled.
> 
> We did stair training today, and after she did it once, she walked away, when I called her back, she piddled on the floor. Honestly, I wasn't communicating any anger, stress etc. I was happy and upbeat, and trying to lure her with food.
> 
> Any words of wisdom, or similar experience?


THAT is a train wreck. She learned (relearned) to ignore you and refuse reward. You think she won't remember that? Nope. She's going to manipulate you.

I have zero tolerance for reward refusal. If a dog isn't hungry enough to accept a reward then it's not hungry enough to get the next meal. I had a dog like yours, brilliant, but she lost my job because of her refusal. 

You can fight with this or fix it. You've made your choice already.


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## tortoise

Rowan said:


> Your tactics are akin to shooting a mosquito with a .45.


Many here fail to see a big picture. If the difference between a dog peeing on the floor and having fun participaing is one missed meal, what is worse?

Dragging a dog through 7 more weeks of peeing on the floor at training class? Or remotivating the dog have letting it have fun for the next 7 weeks?

I like my dog to have fun and I do not accept treat refusal. My puppy tried it once... never again. It will probably never come up again in his lifetime. A couple hours of hungry set him up for a lifetime of fun training.

Gosh, I am cruel. <---sarcasm


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## liljaker

tortoise said:


> Many here fail to see a big picture. If the difference between a dog peeing on the floor and having fun participaing is one missed meal, what is worse?
> 
> Dragging a dog through 7 more weeks of peeing on the floor at training class? Or remotivating the dog have letting it have fun for the next 7 weeks?
> 
> I like my dog to have fun and I do not accept treat refusal. My puppy tried it once... never again. It will probably never come up again in his lifetime. A couple hours of hungry set him up for a lifetime of fun training.
> 
> Gosh, I am cruel. <---sarcasm


Honestly, your comments are a little scarey, and I guess it's easy to say what you want on a forum like this, but I'd be concerned for the safety of a dog in your care.


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## liljaker

And, tortoise, before you react to my comment, I am only basing that assumption on postings you have made yourself, nothing more and nothing less.


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## Countryboy

I see Tortise's methods as another tool in the box of dog training tricks. I too see walking away and peeing on the floor as absolutely unacceptable behaviour from a dog. In an indoor class with other dogs this certainly can initiate a train wreck. I would take the dog home and we would not be back 'til it learned some manners. 

I'm also amazed at the attack from Fond of Poodles. I thot it was a over-reaction to a simple suggestion.

If I'm concerned abt newcomers learning anything I hope they see this deliberate twisting of words. Withholding things to get the dog back on a regular schedule is called 'cruelty', 'torture' and 'starvation'. 

Holy Mackerel, ladies! Lighten up!! Members are not here to be lectured to like we were in boot camp. U should really save that for yr jarheads!


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## tortoise

liljaker said:


> Honestly, your comments are a little scarey, and I guess it's easy to say what you want on a forum like this, but I'd be concerned for the safety of a dog in your care.


Yup, you come stay with me for a week. Sunny won't want to go home.


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## Fond of Poodles

@Rowan – LOL - "akin to shooting a mosquito with a .45", wonderfully funny analogy! Though it holds more than a grain of truth, .


@tortoise – Either I'm not making myself clear or you are not reading my posts in their entirety. She is not ignoring me, she is not food motivated. My dog is quite bonded with me, and I make allowances for her temperament. She is very obedient, affectionate and respectful, it just so happens that she gets overwhelmed when she doesn't understand what is expected of her. Piddling in dog language indicates submissiveness, she was confused, ergo, the piddling. It didn't happen in class, it happened at home. I wasn't communicating effectively with her, she got confused. I understood that. My question was more aimed at getting advice and encouragement from others who had trained dogs with similar temperaments, as Jility did.

There is some truth to the fact that she manipulates me, I don't mind, lol. I love her dearly and if her behaviour causes her to "win" something from me, I don't see the harm in it. 

I haven't read many of your previous posts and I'm not sure exactly what "purpose" your dog serves other than it sounds like he/she is a working dog? Do you mind me asking what kind of work? Perhaps it might be safe in the future to preface your training advice with the nature of your relationship with your dog, which sounds to be working, and not "pet".



> "Many here fail to see a big picture. If the difference between a dog peeing on the floor and having fun participaing is one missed meal, what is worse? "


You didn't suggest missing one meal, you suggested "rationing" her food for a month. I find that unnecessarily cruel, and not appropriate in her case. You are correct in assuming I wouldn't consider it. 



> "Dragging a dog through 7 more weeks of peeing on the floor at training class? Or remotivating the dog have letting it have fun for the next 7 weeks? "


She thoroughly enjoyed the class, it was the training at home that we were having trouble with. Without a trainer present, I was no doubt confusing her, and in doggie language, her piddling on the floor was her way of say "I want to please you, but I don't know what you want", this is not an incorrigible trait. I will have to work on communicating with her more effectively, she is not being difficult, nor do I see our situation as a "train wreck".

@Countryboy – I have no idea what you are saying. Try reading my posts again, get your facts straight. I gave tortoise the benefit of the doubt, and stated that I might be misunderstanding her post: "withhold social interaction, ration food, for a month". I gave her the chance to explain her advice. I was polite and courteous, unlike you were in your response.


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## JE-UK

Rowan said:


> I'm sorry, *Tortoise*, but I have to be brutally honest here. But before I post, let me add that I've read other posts of yours in which you offered training "advice" so I'm not basing my response solely on this one post. And, let me assure you that I can read and comprehend English and I've carefully considered your posts. (I'm still shaking my head.) You seem to jump to the defensive when people don't agree with you and accuse them of lacking such skills so I wanted to establish that fact up front.
> 
> First things first. _Worst case scenario much? _You seem to jump to the absolute extreme without considering the circumstances. The OP didn't say her dog was miserable or a defiant. She said she was having some motivational and focus issues. Your tactics are akin to shooting a mosquito with a .45.
> 
> You previously advocated using a shock collar on a four-month-old puppy and starving dogs to ensure compliance. Here it seems you're suggesting that a professional trainer "_would have he live with no social interaction for a month, ration food. At the end of that time, she'll be motivated to work for food and people. No refusing._" and that you have no qualms with this method. I know you said in a later post that you don't think the OP or a pet trainer will find these methods _reasonable_, so then why offer it as a viable suggestion?
> 
> The OP is training a beloved pet to enjoy agility and isn't training a bomb detection dog for Army EOD. Yes, I do realize that drug detection dogs, etc., undergo rigorous training--I know this because I've worked with them while on the job.
> 
> I agree with *Fond of Poodles*. I find your suggestions to be somewhat cruel not to mention extreme, considering the circumstances. Hell, I consider it extreme under any circumstances. If you must torture your dog--starve or lock them away in solitary confinement--to get them interested in agility, what is the point? Where is the enjoyment for dog or owner? Training is supposed to be a partnership. Your suggestions sound more like a concentration camp and it reminds me of my days in Marine Corp boot camp. You seem to employ a "comply or else" mentality and I _really _don't get that.
> 
> I'm also concerned that novices or lurkers are going to walk away with some potentially dangerous advice. I only hope that people read all the posts within certain threads and do their research because I sincerely hope nobody would "lock their dog away for a month with no social interaction" just because they failed to perform a sit/stay or agility maneuver. I also hope that nobody would starve their puppies to ensure food motivation during training. That's truly sad.
> 
> I won't even get into shock collars because we've been there, done that.
> 
> What I'm trying to say--what I'm asking--is that you consider the situation(s) carefully before you post because I feel the advice you're offering is borderline irresponsible. I'm sorry, but you actually scare me with your ideas and that's saying a lot.


Yes.

What she said :smile:.


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## JE-UK

FondOfPoodles, just another aside, no specific advice ... 

I've found that BECAUSE my poodle learns very quickly, he quickly gets bored with repetition. We do two agility training classes, one that is very correct, very structured, and another that is poodles-only and moves MUCH faster and is much more challenging. We stay with the first to keep us honest on correct training, but the dog gets bored in that class. He really likes the faster-moving class! 

I find if I ask him to repeat something more than two or three times, he starts throwing variations in, either to entertain himself or because he thinks I must want something else. It means in all my training, I try to be quick and mix things up a lot.


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## Rowan

tortoise said:


> Many here fail to see a big picture. If the difference between a dog peeing on the floor and having fun participaing is one missed meal, what is worse? I don't happen to think that a dog weeing on the floor once or twice warrants starvation tactics. I also don't see how this translates into "weeks" of weeing on the floor. We don't know why she wee'd and I think it's acceptable to step back and figure that out before going off the deep end and raising the alarm to DefCon 3.
> 
> Dragging a dog through 7 more weeks of peeing on the floor at training class? Or remotivating the dog have letting it have fun for the next 7 weeks? 7 weeks? Callie wee'd one time and we don't even know why. Again, you're suggesting that your way is the only way, ie., the "Extreme Way." Why don't YOU try and see the big picture and consider all options before resorting to the drastic methods?
> 
> I like my dog to have fun and I do not accept treat refusal. My puppy tried it once... never again. It will probably never come up again in his lifetime. A couple hours of hungry set him up for a lifetime of fun training. ETA: I have to ask because I'm curious. What do you do if your child refuses to eat or do his homework? Do you employ the same tactics?
> 
> *Gosh, I am cruel. <---sarcasm*


*Tortoise*:
_We _see the big picture. We don't agree with your methods. IMHO, you're an extremist. Period. 

Someone says, _"Gee, my poodle wasn't himself today. He wouldn't do a sit stay and I tried treats and praise. Any advice?" _

Your typical reply, _"Try not feeding him for a day or two and then try again. You might also want to try a shock collar and zap him with it." _

In my opinion, that's extreme. Dogs have bad (off) days (they're not robots), and that doesn't mean our only option is to resort to starvation and shock collars, ie., extreme methods. Instead you might suggest that one take the day off and try again the next day or even a few hours later. One might also suggest taking the dog for an invigorating walk and then try again. There are many alternatives. That's the point. You're obviously missing it. (Not a surprise.)

And cut the sarcasm because it's getting old. 

I will again implore all novice dog owners or lurkers to consider all options when reading these posts. If you do a search on training and stumble upon the forum, please read the thread in its entirety. You'll be thankful you did.


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## Rowan

Countryboy said:


> ...
> I'm also amazed at the attack from Fond of Poodles. I thot it was a over-reaction to a simple suggestion.
> 
> If I'm concerned abt newcomers learning anything I hope they see this deliberate twisting of words. Withholding things to get the dog back on a regular schedule is called 'cruelty', 'torture' and 'starvation'.
> 
> Holy Mackerel, ladies! Lighten up!! Members are not here to be lectured to like we were in boot camp. U should really save that for yr jarheads!


What _attack_? Why is it that when anyone disagrees with you or your 'party line' you deem it an attack or a twisting of words? It's called an opposing opinion, as in someone _not agreeing_ with 'your' suggestions or 'your' opinions. That's life. 

Some of us disagree with Tortoise's methods and the information she's relaying in her posts. By some of us, I mean more than one member. (Hhhmm, it would seem like the majority of posters in this thread took issue with her suggestions. Imagine that!) Like you/Tortoise, we're entitled to our opinion and that isn't twisting words. Nobody is being lectured but rather, one's opinions are being debated/discussed/challenged. 

I'm off to once again update my ignore feature.


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## Fond of Poodles

I found a wonderful link that put into words my feelings on deprivation training better than I ever could. The first link is the author's bio, the second link is her articles. 

Suzanne Cloutier - bio

Link to her articles, you will have to accept the agreement at bottom of page

The article is the 5th one down, titled "Of Hostages and Relationships".

Colina


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## petitpie

*Thanks,CB:*

Some posts and opinions sound very harsh for sensitive souls, IMHO.


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## liljaker

Fond of Poodles: I have read "Bones Would Rain From the Sky" and it is a great book!


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## fjm

I love "Bones would rain from the sky", and Suzanne Clothier's writings in general. Highly recommended!


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## Countryboy

Rowan said:


> *Tortoise*:
> _We _see the big picture. We don't agree with your methods. IMHO, you're an extremist. Period.
> 
> Someone says, _"Gee, my poodle wasn't himself today. He wouldn't do a sit stay and I tried treats and praise. Any advice?" _
> 
> Your typical reply, _"Try not feeding him for a day or two and then try again. You might also want to try a shock collar and zap him with it." _


Tortise didn't use those words in her 'typical reply'. Rowan made them up all by her own self. I don't think we've been talking abt shock collars before in this thread. Who's the extremist? 



Rowan said:


> In my opinion, that's extreme. Dogs have bad (off) days (they're not robots), and that doesn't mean our only option is to resort to starvation and shock collars, ie., extreme methods. Instead you might suggest that one take the day off and try again the next day or even a few hours later. One might also suggest taking the dog for an invigorating walk and then try again. There are many alternatives. That's the point. You're obviously missing it. (Not a surprise.)
> 
> And cut the sarcasm because it's getting old.


The sarcasm in brown above is entirely Rowan's too. 



Rowan said:


> I will again implore all novice dog owners or lurkers to consider all options when reading these posts. If you do a search on training and stumble upon the forum, please read the thread in its entirety. You'll be thankful you did.


Please do, people. And read both sides.


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## Rowan

Countryboy said:


> Tortise didn't use those words in her 'typical reply'. Rowan made them up all by her own self*. I don't think we've been talking abt shock collars before in this thread. Who's the extremist?
> If you re-read my first post in this thread, I stated that my opinion was based on Tortoise's posts as a whole, as in the majority of her posts on this forum and not just those within this thread.
> 
> The sarcasm in brown above is entirely Rowan's too.
> Yep, it is depending on interpretation. I'm stating that I'm no longer surprised she's missing the point.
> 
> Please do, people. And read both sides.  Oh, I'm sure they will (and have done so many times over). I hear from many of them.


*I didn't say that Tortoise uttered those exact words. I provided those as an example of her "_typical_" responses, ie., to illustrate that she often jumps to the extreme before considering the situation at hand.

Typical - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


> Definition of TYPICAL
> 
> 1: constituting or having the nature of a type : symbolic
> 2 a : combining or exhibiting the essential characteristics of a group <typical suburban houses>
> b : conforming to a type <a specimen typical of the species>
> — typ·i·cal·i·ty noun
> — typ·i·cal·ness noun
> 
> Examples of TYPICAL
> 
> *It was his typical response.*
> It was a typical Saturday night for us.
> We wanted him to have the typical college experience of living on campus.


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## Countryboy

Regardless, Rowan.... 

U have escalated the rhetoric. It went from a simple question and discussion . . . to posts where u throw in 'starvation', 'cruelty', 'extremist', 'shock collars' and the like. All loaded words . . . guaranteed to inflame. 

Let's discuss an issue without the flaming please.


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## tortoise

Rowan, most my responses are advocating positive training. Backing up, trying again. I'm not going to tell someone to do something that doesn't make sense because of someone else's utopia. I'm not even going to tell somone to do something they're not comfortable with. I'm showing other points of view, different things that work. How can a person make an educated choice when they don't know the alternatives?!

It's going to take me a while to catch up (I am recoverying from surgery), but I wanted to touch on the child reference. If my son would play with his food, not eat his supper, he would get 3 warnings. After the 3rd, we would take away his plate. He would get not dessert or snacks until the next meal. Regarding a messy room, if he is getting distracted cleaning his room, he gets 1 warning. Then next time I set an alarm for 30 minutes. When the alarm rings, I take away every toy that is not in the right place.

Needless to say, he eats his meals until he feels full, and he doesn't mess up his room often. When he does mess it up, he cleans it quickly.

I love my son too much to nag him. And I can say the same for a dog.

I've never stated that a dog can't have an off day. Don't train on off days! Ever! IF you do, your dog starts to learn all sorts of ways to refuse. Then you have a big problem. If your dog is having an off day at a class, crate you dog and take notes to catch up at home. If you're at home, crate your dog for 10 - 30 minutes, let her loose and pretend the training attempt never happened.

STARVATION IS NORMAL. Think about it. The normal state for people and animals is not eating. We spend most of our time not eating. Hunger as a consequence is not fatal. I am not eating now. I am hungry now. I am not dying now. When I am hungry enough that I am motivated to prepare food, then I will eat. When a dog is hungry enough to try in training, then it will eat. There are very limited ways to motivate a dog for training. Hunger, play/prey, water. I know of some positive trainers that restrict water intake and use water as a reward in training. I don't think it's safe for the average person trying to train their dog at home. If the dog refuses treats and food, the only motivation left if play. And when your dog won't play you are left with..... fear and pain. I'm not telling to you fear and pain. I'm showing you how you can help your dog work for treats and play so that training can be fun again. Withholding food is very safe in dogs. Starvation studies have been done in dogs out to 17 days. I'm not saying starve your dog. Withhold a meal. If your dog is overweight, feed to it's ideal weight rather than current weight. Thin dogs live longer than chubby ones anyway!

You can throw whatever extremist language you want at it, but withholding rewards to make them more valuable is a middle-of-the-road solution.


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## plumcrazy

Countryboy said:


> Let's discuss an issue without the flaming please.


I have not seen any flaming... YET... let's quit the back and forth picking on each other and calling members out by name, and there won't be any - OK??

As far as the topic, it seems to have run the gamut already on very differing viewpoints and opinions and it appears that neither side is willing to concede that the other side's opinion has merit. This has happened before on this forum and there's no doubt it will happen again. 

Here's what I propose... if someone has something novel to suggest to the OP to help answer her question, we want to hear it. If someone wants to rehash the same old differing opinions that are ALREADY hashed and rehashed on this thread, let's NOT and say we DID!! Sound fair??

Any posts AFTER this one that appear to me to bringing up what has already been said (and said again), I will reserve the right to delete said post.

There are different approaches to doing pretty much everything under the sun. I follow a natural horsemanship trainer with my horses. I have followed his program and methods for seven years and there is nothing in his program that I find truly offensive - I've spent two weeks at his facility in Florida at a training seminar and I've watched him with his horses. He LOVES horses and only wants to do what is best for them - that being said, he advocates that during training, owners not supply full time water for their horses, but instead, lead their horses to water periodically throughout the day. He's very familiar with the horse digestive tract and the importance of sufficient water to facilitate the digestive process, so he's not telling people not to provide water but to be the ones who decide WHEN the water is provided.

He has learned that by the human being the sole water provider (not the bucket or trough that is always full and can be accessed at will) the horse will have a whole new bond with the owner. People have criticized this trainer for being cruel - but in my eyes that isn't the case at all. He's not advocating _witholding _water, he's advocating _controlling _the water - BIG difference! I can see that in the wrong hands it CAN be considered witholding (if an owner isn't consistently providing that water to their horse as directed) but then that's the OWNER'S fail, not the trainer's.

Also, on the subject of witholding or controlling food. On occasion I use a holistic veterinarian out of Montana. I've attended a nutrition seminar she presented and have had several of my dogs seen by her for a variety of reasons... During the nutrition seminar, she highly ENCOURAGED people to fast their dogs periodically. The following is an excerpt from the Holistic Medicine In Practice handout that she provided as part of her seminar. If anyone is interested in seeing the entire handout, send me a private message with your email address and I can send it to you...

Dr. Shura Bugreeff says, "If you consider wolves in the wild you know that they do not eat every day. A dog’s system is designed to gorge food then rest for long periods of time until the next meal is hunted, killed and eaten. In countless laboratory experiments, animals and humans were fasted weekly and monthly and were shown to live longer and healthier lives than those who ate every day. For this reason I advocate feeding most dogs only once a day – in the evening; and fasting them monthly. I never advocate letting a dog snack or nibble at kibble as they please. It is the absolute worst thing for their digestion."

Fortunately, I have very treat motivated dogs - so training is pretty easy with a pocketful of venison bits. I've never withheld food for any training related issues -but it is not unusual in my house for the dogs to miss a meal or two during any given month. I used to feed my dogs exactly as Dr. Shura recommends - one meal in the evening; but since my dogs have aged (I have a 14 year old and a 10 year old) and their metabolism/digestive system has slowed, I like to split their food into a noon meal and one just before bed. I haven't ever fasted them for an entire day (essentially missing two meals in a row) but I HAVE withheld one or the other daily meal at least once a month - not for training, but for HEALTH!

I understand my dogs are not wolves, but in all my research and education regarding my OWN health (and my 70 pound weight loss since last January) I've learned that it's even beneficial for humans to rest their digestive tract on a reasonably occasional basis. My dogs truly don't appear to mind missing a meal here or there - they're not sitting in front of my staring daggers while copious amounts of drool puddle at their feet while they're waiting for me to feed them a meal that isn't coming... They really don't even seem to notice that a meal didn't appear when I do a 1/2 day fast...

I hope everyone is able to keep things civil as this thread continues. There are some fascinating pieces of information and suggestions here (if one can wade through the snide comments and disagreements that have occured in between!) 

I've never trained for agility so I have no further suggestions for Colina at this time, but will be interested in reading any new ideas people have to help her with her question! Maybe I'll get inspired to try agility! 

Barb


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## Chagall's mom

Fond of Poodles said:


> I found a wonderful link that put into words my feelings on deprivation training better than I ever could. The first link is the author's bio, the second link is her articles.
> 
> Suzanne Cloutier - bio
> 
> Link to her articles, you will have to accept the agreement at bottom of page
> 
> The article is the 5th one down, titled "Of Hostages and Relationships".
> 
> Colina



Great article, Coina, _thanks!_ I am a _major _Suzanne Clothier fan myself. Yesterday I sent the article to a friend, who in turn just emailed me to say he's COMPLETELY changed his thinking about isolating and withholding food from his dog! Just want you to know you've been EXTREMELY helpful to my friend, and many others as well, I'm sure. Thanks again!:smile:


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## Fond of Poodles

*@Chagall's Mom,* Yes, I thought the articles were great too, you have to love the internet. There was a lot of helpful information in them, and in the ones Jility shared, particularly the "Recovering from Stress" one.

*@tortoise *- I'm sorry, but stating that I "know what is wrong but don't want to fix it" is just not true, otherwise I would not have asked for advice. I respect your right to offer your opinions, however they do occasionally verge on being judgements, lacking in sufficient supporting evidence. Yes, I suspected that she may be spoiled, which she is, to an extent. However, that was not the problem. Her response was fear and uncertainty based, not having been ruined or trained or allowed to repeatedly behave in an unacceptable manner. I have previously stated, she is well trained, obedient and respectful, but a bit on the soft side. To add to the confusion, she is not, nor ever will be food motivated. This dog almost starved herself to death when ill, she was isolated and limited in her activity. As she recovered, while her appetite increased, it at no point became voracious, nor did food elicit any animation from her, ever! I'm not going to go over this again, as my impression is that my posts are not being read, or if they are, you are only picking bits and pieces to respond to, so as to justify your advice to me.
*
On a positive note:*

Callie is now doing the ladder easily and willingly! I used effusive, over the top praise initially, plenty of coaxing, very, very slow steps to lure her towards me. If she succeeded in making even a few steps, I rewarded with praise and ended the lesson on a positive note. All I asked of her was to have all 4 feet within the frame. After 3 days of twice daily training sessions, she will walk the complete length of a 12 ft ladder, and her reward is praise, but I downgraded the effusiveness. She is still working happily, and I am offering food as well. 

Clicker training: I've shortened the length of time we do the "load the clicker" exercise. I offer her 10 treats, along with a click for eye contact. And we're done. She is responding consistently, if not enthusiastically, lol.

We're still working on the stairs. It may be that the stairs are narrow, are a bit slippery, she's not used to going up them (they lead to my son's loft bedroom). In any case, I will bring it up with the trainer next class and see what she suggests. We have at least progressed to her touching every step with her two front paws, however she will not stop at the bottom step and hold. Because I'm uncertain what I'm doing wrong and don't want to reinforce an undesired behaviour, I now randomly "release" her at varied steps. This will have to do until we get back to class on Monday.

We had to use the clicker to train a "trick/behaviour" prior to our next class. I built on the existing trait she has of burying her nose in my crotch, lol. Now I tell her to "Go through" and she goes all the way through my legs and I'm working on the last step, which will be to have her come around and sit in front of me.

We are having fun, and it's exciting to watch her already gaining confidence. I will keep you updated on her progress! Thank you for your support and advice.

Colina and Callie,


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## plumcrazy

If anyone notices posts missing it's because of THIS!!



plumcrazy said:


> Any posts AFTER this one that appear to me to bringing up what has already been said (and said again), I will reserve the right to delete said post.


Thanks for your cooperation!

Barb


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## Rowan

Fond of Poodles said:


> *@Chagall's Mom,* Yes, I thought the articles were great too, you have to love the internet. There was a lot of helpful information in them, and in the ones Jility shared, particularly the "Recovering from Stress" one.
> 
> On a positive note:[/U][/B]
> 
> Callie is now doing the ladder easily and willingly! I used effusive, over the top praise initially, plenty of coaxing, very, very slow steps to lure her towards me. If she succeeded in making even a few steps, I rewarded with praise and ended the lesson on a positive note. All I asked of her was to have all 4 feet within the frame. After 3 days of twice daily training sessions, she will walk the complete length of a 12 ft ladder, and her reward is praise, but I downgraded the effusiveness. She is still working happily, and I am offering food as well.
> 
> Clicker training: I've shortened the length of time we do the "load the clicker" exercise. I offer her 10 treats, along with a click for eye contact. And we're done. She is responding consistently, if not enthusiastically, lol.
> 
> We're still working on the stairs. It may be that the stairs are narrow, are a bit slippery, she's not used to going up them (they lead to my son's loft bedroom). In any case, I will bring it up with the trainer next class and see what she suggests. We have at least progressed to her touching every step with her two front paws, however she will not stop at the bottom step and hold. Because I'm uncertain what I'm doing wrong and don't want to reinforce an undesired behaviour, I now randomly "release" her at varied steps. This will have to do until we get back to class on Monday.
> 
> We had to use the clicker to train a "trick/behaviour" prior to our next class. I built on the existing trait she has of burying her nose in my crotch, lol. Now I tell her to "Go through" and she goes all the way through my legs and I'm working on the last step, which will be to have her come around and sit in front of me.
> 
> We are having fun, and it's exciting to watch her already gaining confidence. I will keep you updated on her progress! Thank you for your support and advice.
> 
> Colina and Callie,


Colina--
I'm so glad that Callie is making progress! Two of my three are very food/praise oriented but the other only eats when he's hungry. He does enjoy praise but he's one of those "uncertain" dogs who is so eager to please he steps all over himself. It's helpful to hear what works for you as Pippin shares some of Callie's traits. 

I'm also a fan of Suzanne Clothier and wanted to thank you for posting those links. You've inspired me to re-read "Bones Would Rain From the Sky." 

Send some more pics of Callie when you have time. Is she still in the Miami? I refer to her pic every time someone asks for a good example of that trim! She rocks it. I just love her bone structure.


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## tortoise

Clicker training is very fast. If you're getting consistent results, she's probably bored. Nobody who is bored will be enthusisastic! Try taking it to the next level.

For a training challenge: stop the praising and luring. Free shape (using praise as the post-click reward) your dog touch the ladder. Change the picture, change the outcome. It may not be easy, but the value is huge.


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