# Black puppy with blue eyes



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

I finally found a spoo and in all my excitement made the deposit before doing all my research. Now I see buried in the breeder Facebook page that the breeder has had Merle litters. My pup is abstract black and from the pics it appears he has blue eyes. He has one tI y spot of white on his chest. The mom looks solid, as well as the litter mates. I read that poodles shouldn’t have blue eyes and that it is an increased risk for cataracts and glaucoma. Thoughts/advice?


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

All puppies are born with blue eyes that clear up from anywhere from 9 to 12 weeks--but in this case, it is likely that the dog has merle in its bloodline, as it can 'hide' under the actual color of the coat and cause all sorts of problems. This also means that it is not purebred, since there is no such thing as a merle poodle. I personally would withdraw my deposit if possible and look elsewhere, as since I'm paying a high price for the dog, I had better be getting a pure, healthy poodle, doggone it!


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Based on the blue eyes, it certainly seems he has merle. The concern with blue eyes is related to deafness and malformed eyes in double merles. Inheriting a single copy of the merle gene (only one parent was merle) is not generally a health problem. Normally double merles are mostly white, so I think a black puppy is unlikely to be double merle.

There are some other issues related to merles. The merle gene is not historically found in poodles. Therefore, it probably came in via an illicit outcross to collies or Aussies. These breeds have a high incidence of a mutation called MDR1. The effect of the gene is to goof up the liver's ability to metabolize commonly prescribed medications such as ivermectin. The effects can be lethal if an affected dog ingests one of these medications. If you do go ahead with the purchase, I would advise you to talk to your vet about genetic testing.

Additionally, this dog is a mutt. Crossing a high energy mouthy retriever breed with a high energy assertive herding breed can produce some odd temperament and drive issues. You could probably go just as wrong with ill bred puppies from temperamentally unsound parents, but it's still worth considering. This dog might not act entirely like a poodle.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

cowpony said:


> This dog might not act entirely like a poodle.


Laughing at this. I saw a video where the owner had her Aussie 'herding' her young children to the car each morning for school. Otherwise you might tire of your dog herding _you_ take it out for a walk, feedings, etc, lol.



cowpony said:


> ... collies or Aussies. These breeds have a high incidence of a mutation called MDR1. The effect of the gene is to goof up the liver's ability to metabolize commonly prescribed medications such as ivermectin. The effects can be lethal if an affected dog invests one of these medications.


Pay close attention to that. It's no joke. If this pup has Merle ancestry and the owner never bothered to get them DNA tested for the MDR1 gene and the pup has it, using worming the dog with Ivermectin will quite possibly kill it.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Vita said:


> Laughing at this. I saw a video where the owner had her Aussie 'herding' her young children to the car each morning for school. Otherwise you might tire of your dog herding _you_ take it out for a walk, feedings, etc, lol.


Even worse, consider the fact that a well bred sheep dog is supposed to be very assertive - stalking, chasing, the hard stare - but never put teeth on the sheep. In contrast, a well poodle is supposed to show little aggression, but it will have a mouthy drive to go pick up wounded birds. Cross wire the two drives, and you have the potential for some very difficult moments. Anyone who has raised a spoo has stories of being gnawed on by a happily teething puppy. Thankfully this gnawing usually subsides as the puppy matures. Imagine, instead, if it transformed into an aggressive herding biting behavior like an ill-bred cattle dog.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

You're describing my worst poodle nightmare, @cowpony.

I'm sorry to hear you've found yourself in this situation, @Beachpup, but it sounds like it's not too late to cut your losses (if it comes to that) and resume your search. How old is the puppy? Have you asked the breeder about his eyes?


----------



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> You're describing my worst poodle nightmare, @cowpony.
> 
> I'm sorry to hear you've found yourself in this situation, @Beachpup, but it sounds like it's not too late to cut your losses (if it comes to that) and resume your search. How old is the puppy? Have you asked the breeder about his eyes?


The puppies are all solid and she says that Merle cannot be carried. To have a Merle one parent must be Merle. We have been pm’ing but it’s hard to get her on the phone. The puppy is seven weeks. I have seen pictures on facebook and we did one live video but I hadn’t learned about Merle yet, or the concern over blue eyes. It was only after going deeper into her Facebook that I got concerned.


----------



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

Can I ask for the AKC ref numbers and find out more about the parents?


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

It is true the pup is unlikely to be merle if neither parent was visibly merle. But if the pup's eyes are truly blue and not just the puppy blue, then my guess is that it has merles in the ancestry. With breeds that carry merle like aussies, shelties, border collies etc. they can have blue eyes without being merle. It is likely that the blue eyes in the pup would come from one of these ancestors. Poodles never have blue eyes.

Truthfully I would see if I could get my deposit back. I'd rather go to reputable breeder that was considered responsible and respected by the breed community.


----------



## FloofyPoodle (May 12, 2020)

Merle can 100% be carried, so either she's lying or doesn't understand the genetics. Once it's there, it's there. Now, it's possible that she's talking about double merles, which can only happen when breeding a merle to a merle. At seven weeks, and the puppies' eyes are strikingly blue and not fading, I would be concerned that these dogs are in fact cryptic merles or something of the sort. Dog Coat Colour Genetics


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

FloofyPoodle said:


> Merle can 100% be carried, so either she's lying or doesn't understand the genetics. Once it's there, it's there. Now, it's possible that she's talking about double merles, which can only happen when breeding a merle to a merle. At seven weeks, and the puppies' eyes are strikingly blue and not fading, I would be concerned that these dogs are in fact cryptic merles or something of the sort. Dog Coat Colour Genetics


The merle gene is dominant, so one of the parents must be merle for it to be carried. They could be cryptic merle but they must still be merle. As has been said in other threads, some colors can mask a merle gene so it is possible to not know they are merle.


----------



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

If you wanted specific information about the parents lineage, what would you ask for? It appears the mom is hers but she is vague about the dad. Sent me a random photo and only the first name of the breeder. She says she has been in the business for 30 years and on our video chat she was very personable. I did not do my homework or ask the right questions.


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Beachpup said:


> If you wanted specific information about the parents lineage, what would you ask for? It appears the mom is hers but she is vague about the dad. Sent me a random photo and only the first name of the breeder. She says she has been in the business for 30 years and on our video chat she was very personable. I did not do my homework or ask the right questions.


You should be able to ask for the pedigrees of the parents. It's a learning process. Everybody goes through it. Don't feel too bad.


----------



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

Thanks. It get so emotional when you see that precious puppy. I’m going to ask for the pedigree.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Hun, 
all puppies are cute
I learned the hard way that doing your home work is important so you get the healthiest pup with the best temperament.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Question: are the puppy's eyes bright blue, like a husky? Or is it more of a hazy blue? Puppy eyes do start out lighter than their final color. My boy Pogo's eyes were still a hazy blue brown at 9 weeks; Galen had only a hint of blue haze at 7.

Also, I totally skipped over the part where you mentioned he was abstract. Blue eyes can be caused by an S-locus piebald gene, although I've never seen it in a poodle.


----------



## Beachpup (Sep 12, 2020)

It’s hard to tell from the pics. I’m not comfortable so I’m backing out. I appreciate your input. It’s been helpful in making a decision. Great, but expensive, learning experience.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

It's better to lose a deposit than be heart broken when you dog isn't bred well and has health and or temperament issues.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

> Quoted from Vita's post: _"cowpony said:
> ... collies or Aussies. These breeds have a high incidence of a mutation called MDR1. The effect of the gene is to goof up the liver's ability to metabolize commonly prescribed medications such as ivermectin. The effects can be lethal if an affected dog invests one of these medications._


_Pay close attention to that. It's no joke. If this pup has Merle ancestry and the owner never bothered to get them DNA tested for the MDR1 gene and the pup has it, using worming the dog with Ivermectin will quite possibly kill it_. "


THIS IS very important. I love Collies. My current one is a Blue Merle that was properly bred (only 1 merle parent) however MDRI is an issue that if your pup has Collie in the background anywhere, MDR1 can be a heartbreak as it's deadly. That's why you do not cross breed dogs & pass them off as purebred. MDR1 has to do with the blood brain barrier. So your pup gets dihrea & like most pet parents you check to make certain no xylitol is present in the imodium or pepto to treat the pup but your pup may not be able to take these items due to the touch of Collie, Aussie, etc... in the genetics. If the MDR1 affects the pup there is several things.

Here's a list:


Ivermectin
Selamectin
Milbemycin
Moxidectin
Loperamide
Acepromazine
Butorphanol
Vincristine
Vinblastine
Doxorubicin
Paclitaxel
Apomorphine
The following list is dr

Here's the link to the article that gives a LOT more information
MDR1 – Multi-Drug Sensitivity - Coxwell Animal Clinic

Bottom line for me if they are passing merles as purebreds, I'm out. If they upfront said, "we have merles, x-number of generations we crossed to a (fill in the blank) to get the merles then did the work to take them back to poodle, well I'd give them points for honesty. There are breeders working on the Collie breed currently & they are outcrossing however they are not selling their dogs in a con-man game. They refer to their pups as farm collies & will tell you they are outcrosses & why, what their goals are. They do have goals & a purpose due to not being able to find it in the current spectrum of the purebred dogs. I don't have heartburn with this so long as the breeder is HONEST & upfront. Then I as a puppy purchaser can determine if I'm okay with this or not.

The problem with the merle in Poodles is there are a lot of people who have been sold on a conman game & they believe it. When I was seeking a pup, I came here. I figured I could not go wrong asking people on the Poodle forum. I am glad I did. I was skeptical about brindle, sable, & merle as I couldn't find enough information to make me feel comfortable. So when in doubt don't. That has been my mother's advice all my life & it served me well.

I was recently contacted by a Standard Poodle breeder I'd contacted during my search. She had a litter perfect for me. I looked at what she sent me & politely declined. She questioned why. Well I told her as kindly & honestly as possible. This did not go over well. How dare I say her dogs are crossbreds, she'll sue me if I slander her dogs, blah, blah, blah. We ended up having a pretty fair discussion as her drama doesn't get her far with me. I sent her a few places & told her if she could prove to me that her dogs were purebred, not crossed, I would buy a puppy. (okay that's literally putting my money where my mouth is because I don't really need another pup right now unless s/he is someone I can pursue some competition stuff I'd like to try. She set out to prove it. I didn't hear from her for awhile. She contacted me ahead of the female's heat cycle hoping to secure me to a pup. As per our agreement I got pick of the litter if she could prove the pup purebred. By the time I called her the pups had been born, if the breeding took. Genetic testing created a mess for her. Her purebred, show quality Standard Poodles had a rather high amount of Australian Cattle Dog which accounted for several things I saw in her dogs. She was a mess & was currently in talks with the breeder her merle came from.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Beachpup said:


> It’s hard to tell from the pics. I’m not comfortable so I’m backing out. I appreciate your input. It’s been helpful in making a decision. Great, but expensive, learning experience.


That can't have been an easy decision. I'm sorry.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

dogsavvy said:


> I was recently contacted by a Standard Poodle breeder I'd contacted during my search. She had a litter perfect for me. I looked at what she sent me & politely declined. She questioned why. Well I told her as kindly & honestly as possible. This did not go over well. How dare I say her dogs are crossbreds, she'll sue me if I slander her dogs, blah, blah, blah. We ended up having a pretty fair discussion as her drama doesn't get her far with me. I sent her a few places & told her if she could prove to me that her dogs were purebred, not crossed, I would buy a puppy. (okay that's literally putting my money where my mouth is because I don't really need another pup right now unless s/he is someone I can pursue some competition stuff I'd like to try. She set out to prove it. I didn't hear from her for awhile. She contacted me ahead of the female's heat cycle hoping to secure me to a pup. As per our agreement I got pick of the litter if she could prove the pup purebred. By the time I called her the pups had been born, if the breeding took. Genetic testing created a mess for her. Her purebred, show quality Standard Poodles had a rather high amount of Australian Cattle Dog which accounted for several things I saw in her dogs. She was a mess & was currently in talks with the breeder her merle came from.


WOW! THAT IS A HECK OF A STORY!

Thank you for sharing that!


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Beachpup,

I'm so sorry you had to go through that & know you must be disappointed by I think you made a wise choice. When you're uncomfortable, you listened to that. Good on you.

Vita,

I gotta tell you, I really kinda blew it off thinking I wouldn't hear from her again but I got curious. I wasn't calling to be a snot but really hoped she would share her findings IF she tested the dog. I am also glad I didn't get stuck buying a doodle. I gave my word & I won't break it. So I'd have gritted my teeth & paid for the pup. I feel bad for her as she believed what she was told. She is on her third generation of that mistake, which is why this is such an issue.



For anyone in the future reading this thread... this is why the hot-button merle issue isn't just a color thing. There is so much more to it than just color


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> Beachpup,
> 
> I'm so sorry you had to go through that & know you must be disappointed by I think you made a wise choice. When you're uncomfortable, you listened to that. Good on you.
> 
> ...


That is a crazy story! But what's weird to me is that cattle dogs don't carry merle which is a common misconception. Their coat comes in speckled or mottled varieties. It's possible the poodles weren't even merle but actually had one of these colors.


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

dogsavvy said:


> Vita, I gotta tell you, I really kinda blew it off thinking I wouldn't hear from her again but I got curious. I wasn't calling to be a snot but really hoped she would share her findings IF she tested the dog. I am also glad I didn't get stuck buying a doodle. I gave my word & I won't break it. So I'd have gritted my teeth & paid for the pup. I feel bad for her as she believed what she was told. She is on her third generation of that mistake, which is why this is such an issue.


That poor breeder must have been livid. She went through all the effort and cost to make her poodle(s) champions only to discover they're not.

Aside from that, I love the Merle coloring so much that if toy Aussies existed and were as laid back as Pugs, I could see myself getting one in the distant future. It took me a long time to see "what's the big deal?" if it looks exactly like a poodle and you only want it for a pet and get it from a breeder who had enough common sense to not breed two Merles together, which can cause deafness and other problems. 

I give a lot of credit @cowpony for explaining to me about the MDR1 gene, then I learned more about cryptic (hidden) Merles where you think the parents or grandparents were full blood poodles but that MDR1 gene slipped in, and worse, an unethical lying breeder down the line lied and falsified their AKC registration. If they lied about all that, what other health problems might they be hiding? The beauty in too many cases comes at a very, very high cost.



dogsavvy said:


> For anyone in the future reading this thread... this is why the hot-button merle issue isn't just a color thing. There is so much more to it than just color


Ditto.


----------



## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Beachpup,

Im sorry you’ve had this bump in the road. I hope you get your full deposit back. If deposit was made for a purebred poodle, then you can withdraw from the deal due to blue eyes not being allowed in the AKC standard. You can read the standard for yourself on the PCA website.

Also, it is worth saying that the breeder will have no difficulty selling a black dog with blue eyes, especially during this pandemic puppy shortage. It is an uncommon color combo and many people would find it beautiful. I say this because I believe the breeder has every reason to return your deposit. I hope you get your money back and find the poodle of your dreams.


----------

