# 100% Force-Free Grooming?



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Pammi, that is a truly brilliant idea! The only downside is that you are likely to get all the really difficult dogs that have already been thoroughly traumatised, but I am sure that with your patience and attention to detail you can help even those. I wish you were closer - Poppy lets me groom her without a fuss, but there is no one round here I would trust to recognise that it takes care and time to keep things that way!

I suspect that once word gets out your business will build by word of mouth, especially if you offer an introductory programme for puppies and leave cards with all the local vets, but I think a name using Kind or Kindly might convey what you are after. I like Pet Consent Program as a name for what you do - shove a copyright on it ASAP!


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## hkb (Oct 12, 2014)

Kindest Cuts and Caring Curries?


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## Ollybear (Oct 5, 2015)

Hi Pammi Poodle I occasionally toy with the idea of training as a groomer and opening a grooming salon and also thought more involvement from owners would be a great option that I would want to develop. You would probably know more about this than me but I think the pricing scale would have to be based on an hourly rate or by 15 min increments to cover the extra time for more difficult to handle doggies as I too think this approach would attract some more difficult clients. I'm trying to remember the name I thought of. I will let you know if I remember and it's worth sharing. I hope you go ahead with your plans.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

I think it's an amazing idea, hope others do and you can make it work. My view is, it is not unlike any other training or socialization class I would take my puppy/dog to, so maybe it should be offered as such and an addition to your regular service. Have you thought about doing some as a small group, 2 or 3 people with their pets.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

My concern is once you got them settled and the owners watched enough you may have owners doing their own grooming


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, everyone! I also like the word "Kind" being used. Other considerations are "Brains and Beauty", since it's training and grooming. Or "Love My Groom". What about "TLC - Train, Love, Clip"? Since even Labs and Pits typically get nail trims, so it's pretty universal.

*Fjm*, I wouldn't see that as a downside! The dogs who've been through the ringer are the ones with the most to gain. I would be very happy to make that sort of difference. I'm glad you like Pet Consent!

*Ollybear*, I was thinking these appointments would be 45-60 minutes, and we just do what we're able in that time. By then, the dog will be full or just running out of attention span! 

*Caddy*, yes, I've thought of making it a 4 or 6 week class! I think in the end, the dog will still need some grooming to be getting done, so making it a lesson/groom should keep anything from getting too neglected. I don't feel comfortable with groups at this point, because that's a lot of pressure! Plus, obedience does involve learning to work around distractions like other dogs and people. Grooming doesn't have to, so I think it would be an unnecessary obstacle for the dogs. However, teaching a class of humans how to groom or handle their dogs, now that would be smart!

*Glorybeecosta*, that would be okay by me! I would gladly teach owners to groom their own dogs if I knew the dogs would be happy and cooperative. The problem is when people are trying to hold a dog still who may flinch or jump at the wrong time, or clipping a wiggling dog, or trying to suppress an aggressive dog. This is how non-professionals and/or their dogs can get hurt. Also, when it comes to using force and keeping stress levels low, it's usually done best by pros. Owners may cause their pet more stress and fear than I would, so that's not something I want to happen! Remove the stress and reduce the danger, and I'm happy to see them switch to home grooming! : )


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I do agree the dogs are better for a groomer than an owner most of the time. I have been trying to hire a groomer to teach me and will pay by the hour, no takers, wish I lived in your area, would be one of your first customers.

I agree I like TLC


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## AngelAviary (Aug 12, 2014)

This is a good idea, I hope you get it all figured out! I myself have a great relationship with Stellas groomer and I have always stayed and watched her be groomed. How else was I going to learn to care for her coat properly at home with out watching the pro?? I also see what I have to work on more, training wise, at home if Stella gives Tara a hard time about something. She corrects her and then I can use the same correction at home so Stella understands what the correction is for. Its a win win. Tara was just shocked that an owner actually wanted to make her job easier!! LOL 
I don't feel like doing all my own grooming at home, Im not that experienced, even after watching Stella be groomed for almost 2yrs, so I don't think owners will leave your business to do it themselves. It will give them a level of comfort knowing they can watch their dog and put all their worries aside that someone is going to miss treat them when they are gone.
Good luck! You should do great!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Unless you only groom one dog at a time and only have one person grooming, I think the distraction of other dogs and people would be pretty normal. I would embrace such a course for Abbey and I, and would consider it to be very forward thinking. I actually think I may suggest this to the centre we do all our training.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*Glorybeecosta*, they might have the same reservations I do. You know the saying "A little learning is a dangerous thing." I hesitate to sum up grooming - and safe and effective handling - in even as much as 10 hours. If the "handling" is replaced with force-free training where the pet is a willing and happy participant, then a lot of the potential for bad is removed. : ) And I'm sure many groomers are not yet thinking of that as even a possibility. Force in grooming has been the standard for ages. And, more than force, many groomers still use coersion or punishment to control their groom dogs. I would never teach any of those methods to a pet-owner. I no longer use those techniques myself!

*AngelAviary*, yes, it is wonderful when an owner cares about their dog's experience (or the groomers! Haha) and works on things at home. I'm always upfront with owners about their dog's behavior, and some people practically stick their fingers in their ears! : P It's so nice when they care like you do!

*Caddy*, I am the only groomer and I only take one dog at a time. : ) But, yea, if I had more going on in my salon, I would factor that into what the dog needs to learn. The groom dogs will have the distraction of my Poodles, though! I hope you recommend it to your training centre! I would love to hear what comes of it! I agree that it's forward thinking, and I dream of it one day being the norm. : ) Why is it okay to repeatedly force our dogs through something frightening that we know is going to come up again in a month? Why not teach them that it's okay?

I hope this service does catch on and I can actually stop offering the standard grooming altogether. It's very hard for me to make peace with using force, and I've been close to quitting grooming altogether because of it. I don't know how this will all work out, but just making the decision to go for it has put new wind in my sails! :angel:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

This is very cool! I am so coming back to this thread tomorrow when I can get on my computer instead of this phone. Or asap. Awesome idea! :alberteinstein:


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*Poodlebeguiled*, that would be great! I'd very much appreciate your input! : )


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

I wish you lived close to me. I would love to be involved in a "gentle grooming" class with Abbey and Maggie!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh I have no real input. You are the :alberteinstein: here. This is something I never heard of anyone capitalizing on. You could really start a whole new trend. I think it's a really, really great idea you came up with....to combine training with grooming...that is, if you have time to do both. 

But yeah, you could make separate training classes that are geared for grooming tolerance. Everyone could come to your shop for the class and work on homework during the week. People with dogs that are particularly troubled by grooming would surely benefit I think. And it would be easier for you when the day comes that you need to groom the dog. 

I don't know that you would want to charge as much as a more broad spectrum training class since it's not dealing with other things. But maybe you could do some kind of coupon thing._ Get your dog groomed and get a coupon for half off your grooming training class. _ I'd make it really reasonably priced to make it easy for people and to get things rolling. Make your classes small. But be careful you don't get over whelmed. I don't know how busy you are with the grooming end and you wouldn't want to slice yourself too thin. After all, you might become famous! lol. Seriously. You could have a hard time keeping up.

Now all you have to do is work up a marketing plan...to get started. I bet word of mouth will work like wild fire. Anyhow, if you can do the training and you can coordinate it all, I don't see why not.


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## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I love your idea. This is just a random idea, but how about something like Tender Touch Grooming or Gentle Hands Grooming. You could pair this with something like, "Let me help you train your pet to easily accept the grooming process without fear." You might also provide a link to some of your videos on training your own dogs to accept the grooming process, so they can see that you know what you are doing. If I were closer. I'd love to have you groom my dogs.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

I've been scouring the web for ages (long before I made this decision and started this thread), and I finally found and made contact with another force-free groomer! She's in Scotland and we've started emailing. I am so excited about this!

As I said, I don't really know how to groom force-free, but I planned to just advertise the service in my next ad, and figure it out as I go. The ad was scheduled to run in December, but for unrelated reasons, it's been postponed until January. And along with the groomer I connected with in Scotland, I'm attempting to connect with two others that are also in the UK.

This all is a very good turn of events! Not only might I actually have a mentor (the groomer in Scotland seems very keen on helping me!), but I have an additional month to get things in order. I may be able to go exclusively force-free, rather than just offering it as an option! Maybe I shouldn't get my hopes too high, but what fun is that? : D

For those of you who aren't near me, I'll certainly be posting videos and sharing all I learn about this once I know what I'm doing. I've been stuck in traditional methods for years longer than I should have, simply because I didn't think anyone had figured out a better way. And if no one else had, how could I expect to do it? I want to make sure the information is easily accessible for other groomers who are also wishing for a better way.

*Poodlebeguiled*, I also hadn't heard of anyone else doing this until just this week! I still haven't found any US groomers who do it. Doesn't mean they're not out there, but it's obviously not common! I hope more and more groomers get on the bandwagon! : ) 

I'm running an ad in January. I do think word of mouth will take off. It's a whole new approach to grooming. There have to be many people who've just been waiting for something better. Even I haven't been happy with the standard method for a couple years now, and I'm the one getting paid for it! : P


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## snmim (Sep 7, 2015)

PammiPoodle, this is an ingenious idea, I don't know why it was never mentioned before! I too would bring my dog in to see you, that way I would know she's in good hands. I always worry when she's at the groomer as I can never see what's going on or how they're handling her.. Especially if she's there for up to 3 hours. Sorry I don't have any input on a name for this, but you are an amazing person to actually want to take on such difficult dogs to "groom train". I'm sure many people in your area would appreciate this program.


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## kayfabulous6 (Nov 19, 2013)

That's an amazing idea! I can imagine that so many dogs see grooming as something stressful.


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## RustySpoo (Sep 20, 2015)

Would your grooming prices stay the same or would you charge more since its taking longer?


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## RustySpoo (Sep 20, 2015)

I'm a professional groomer with my own grooming studio in Southern California. 
I groom force free, that's the only way I know how to groom. I do a lot of groom training with my clients dogs AND my clients. It doesn't take me longer to groom this way and my prices are the same as my big box competitors or even a bit less. I'm cage free, cage dryer free, sling free and grooming arm free. I have no "back room". 
I scheduled my appointment throughout the day..one in, one out. My clients love it.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*RustySpoo*, yes, I would have to charge more for the longer time. Which is one of the things that's been holding me back. I worry people won't want to pay for it. Do you have any videos I can watch of you grooming? I'm going to send you a private message! We have much to talk about! : )


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

From what I've been learning from other force free groomers (via stalking their websites, pages, youtube videos, etc.), they are working alone with the dog. Which is kind of a relief, as I prefer training dogs to training people! I just didn't think it would work if I was alone with the dog, as many of my groom dogs seem stressed and refuse food when their owners leave. But maybe that's more in anticipation of unwanted bathing and handling, and less because they miss Mom or Dad.

My own dogs get force free grooming *except* for the bath. They both dislike that and I use a grooming loop to keep them in the tub. Also, everything else is done in 10-20 minutes chunks, a couple times a week. They don't get a complete groom in one go. That's the tricky part! So, I figure they can be my first force free project dogs! I'll switch them to "one-go" grooming, and see if I can keep them motivated and cooperative. 

I recorded my first try with Lumi the other day. It took me a half hour to convince her it was worth hanging out in the tub. This feels very discouraging, as that's almost 20 minutes longer than the average bath for a 5 pound dog. If I add an extra 20 minutes to nail trims and face trims, we're looking at almost double the time! I don't think the cost for that will be marketable, and I also can't cut my rate low enough to make that work.

I'll try not to get too far ahead of myself, though, and just remember that this was our first try. If she learns after a few baths that it's no big deal and we shave off 10 or 15 minutes, then I'll feel more hopeful about this being a viable service that people will pay for. And I can take one for the team and still keep those initial training grooms at a lower price, even if it hurts my paycheck a bit. I'm not greedy, but I do need to be practical! 

Also, I may be overly cautious about avoiding force. Perhaps being confined to the tub, but not wetting a dog when she avoids the spay or shows she's not happy would still be working with her, but keeping us more on track. I'm really not sure. But I'm figuring it out. : )

For any dog nerds who want to see, here is the full video of Lumi's bath. No editing or commentary since I only have a phone. Haha I can basically just hit "record" and "upload". Yes, sometimes I'm just standing there like a lump because I don't know what to do when Lumi is clearly not interested in my bath games. Just imagine smoke coming out of my ears because the wheels are turning! Hahaha

https://youtu.be/RN37eMpsglU


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

I just watched a webinar about reducing stress and force in the grooming salon. I signed up for it months ago and the wait has been killing me!

Overall it was helpful and informative, but the best part was right at the end. Just before closing the webinar, after the q&a and everything, the speaker added one last thought. She told us that she has lost a lot of business because of her methods. Some people don't like it, one client even told her that her (the client's) dog just needed to "buck up and deal with it", referring to being forced through the groom. And then, of course, found another groomer. But the speaker went on to say that she has also gained a lot of business because of it, and many clients seek her out. Just what I needed to hear! : )


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> I recorded my first try with Lumi the other day. It took me a half hour to convince her it was worth hanging out in the tub. This feels very discouraging, as that's almost 20 minutes longer than the average bath for a 5 pound dog. If I add an extra 20 minutes to nail trims and face trims, we're looking at almost double the time! I don't think the cost for that will be marketable, and I also can't cut my rate low enough to make that work.
> 
> I'll try not to get too far ahead of myself, though, and just remember that this was our first try. If she learns after a few baths that it's no big deal and we shave off 10 or 15 minutes, then I'll feel more hopeful about this being a viable service that people will pay for. And I can take one for the team and still keep those initial training grooms at a lower price, even if it hurts my paycheck a bit. I'm not greedy, but I do need to be practical!
> 
> ...


Hey that was a lllooooonnnggg bath! I almost went to sleep. And that was only the bath, not the full groom. There is probably a learning curve so that next time because she is now so comfortable it would take less time.

I myself would be willing to pay more for a 'force free grooming' or 'gentle grooming' or whatever you want to call it.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

PammiPoodle said:


> *RustySpoo*


I am curious - is this pink photo what you use to advertise for grooming? I really like what you are saying, and the actual pics of your poodle, but if I saw this pink thing on a business card or a sign, I would never ever take my poodle there. I want to see one handsome dude on the pic!


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, decision is made! I'm going entirely force-free! My January ad will debut my new company name; Trim and Treat! I think the marketing term I'll use will be "cooperative grooming" (since, technically, leashes, grooming loops, and the barriers of the tub/table are still a form of force). Sessions will be grooming and training in one, but will not include clients as helpers. Of course, on an as needed basis, some clients may be asked to stay for a portion of the appointment if the pet is very stressed without them.

I'm so excited about finally taking my career in a new direction! I've been stagnating for so long and totally lost the fire I had the first ten years of grooming. Looking forward to diving back in now that my values and my work are all in line!! :angel:

*Kontiki*, I know! Lumi's bath was actually discouraging for that reason! I think that true force-free would require no restraints at all, and the ability for the dog to take themselves off the table if they wanted. Otherwise, leashes and even the barrier of the table is still force! I think it's less about teaching a dog to love the groom (which would take daily counter-conditioning, in most cases), and more about teaching a dog to be tolerant and patient. They may not "like" what's happening, but they're not afraid, in pain, or feeling intimidated/coerced/shut down. They are cooperating because they know their is a reward coming shortly, and it's worthwhile! : )

And, yes, I use hot pink Lumi in some of my advertising. She looks awesome - imo! If a potential client is so turned off by a creative or unique groom that they don't want to visit my website or contact me to find out more, then I can't help that. :noidea: It's not my go-to, though. My favorite to use is a kind-of-boring-but-still-cute Lumi in a medium length pet clip. I feel like it's the most relatable, and realistically what most of my clients want for their own dogs.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have never seen Lumi or Amala in anything but an immaculate groom. The pink is fun and showcases your playful side. I wish you were close enough to groom Swizzle. Best of luck with your new direction. Hopefully you will inspire more groomers to use gentle persuasion instead of brute force. Not that I think that groomers are rough but because of time constraints they may sometimes resort to more expedient measures. One thing I liked about my first groomer (now retired) is that when I first brought Swizzle she told me it would take a while and Swizzle might not get a full groom as it might be too stressful for him. I loved that she put Swizzle first.


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

*CT Girl*, it is so helpful for me to hear about other groomers who put the dog first, and owners who are happy with that! Thank you! I'm so afraid of putting owners off and not having enough business to survive. I also worry a lot about being percieved as unprofessional or incompetent if I don't do a perfect groom! I've recently found a large group of groomers (almost all of them are in Europe) who are force free. It's given me a lot of inspiration! : )


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Loved the video! LOVE YOU! You are really good! I'm so impressed. Best of luck with your new direction. I think you're going to be a real hit. Great marketing ideas. Sure, it will take some time at first but in the long run, it will make things go smoother and happier for all. Be sure to update us from time to time. 

I wish you weren't 3000 miles away from me. I'd absolutely bring my little munchkins to you.


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## sunshine (Jan 31, 2015)

Playing devils advocate here... but some times things that are a bit restraining are in place for safety as well as helping keep control. I've always seen the grooming loops as being similar to seat belts. 
How are you going to keep toy breeds from jumping off the table or out of the tub and injuring themselves? I use grooming loops more for that reason than anything else. I'm very soft handed with my clients and always on the look out for ways to reduce stress so this thread is interesting, yet at the same time I'm paranoid that I'd have a Yorkie making a flying leap off table and breaking something if I tried this... 

Even just working towards having the dogs more relaxed and less stressed is moving in an awesome direction though  
I found that nice music helps both the dogs and I take it easy. They seem to apreciate nature sound tracts with birds, me humming or whistling. Though I hope my neighbors aren't listening to me singing... also if I do get a dog in who has a some separation anxiety I leave them alone for the first 15-30 min until they settle in better. That way I'm not combining grooming stress on top of the separation anxiety. I also talk sweetly to them... and there's a lot of it that really is just having a good feel for the dogs and knowing when to back off and try things in a different way. 
Seriously though the nature sound tracks were amazing. I use to work in the busiest salon in town before I left to start my own and on days when things were getting stressful in there one of the girls would pull out nature/music sound tracks and play them. You could feel the whole place take a breath and start to relax... I like being on my own now it's better  
Good luck and best wishes aiming for low stress grooming in your salon


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