# where is the red standard at these days? any cause for concerns?



## Keithsomething

I think there are a few breeders that are attempting to do the proper thing right now with their reds, but the reds as a group still need to go a bit further before they can be recognized by "poodle" people as a genuine poodle.

one thing that would bother me though, is the mating between a silver and a red...while I have heard marvelous things about breeding blues to reds and getting gorgeous apricots (look at NOLA's litter here on the forum), I'd be a bit concerned to breeding a silver to a red. Brown breeders introduce silver (from what I've read >.<) to get a better dilute in their browns causing the cafe and silver beige effect.

I will be bringing home a red boy...while I probably should be looking at adding a more desirable colour to my home as my first show dog, the aspect of beating people with a colour that is clearly detested by many gets me riled up XD


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## taem

Keithsomething said:


> I think there are a few breeders that are attempting to do the proper thing right now with their reds, but the reds as a group still need to go a bit further before they can be recognized by "poodle" people as a genuine poodle.


See, that's the sort of thing I keep hearing, which makes me hesitate. Obviously we're talking stuff at the extreme margins, that probably only poodle veterans would even notice. So if I had experience with stds it wouldn't be an issue. But I've never had a std, just toys.



> one thing that would bother me though, is the mating between a silver and a red...


It's interesting you should say that. The best online summation of color issues I've been able to find is this (a very good site imo): COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES

And that guy says


> DO NOT breed REDS or APRICOTS to the following colors:
> 
> SILVER or BLUE. Breeding red or apricot to silver causes the color to fade even more than they already do as the silver and blue colors carries the fading gene.


I don't care about coat color from an appearance standpoint so fading is fine. I was curious though why the breeder would choose this combination. I haven't asked the breeder yet, I want to explore the issue first so I'll better understand what the breeder has to say. Incidentally there is far less out there about poodle breeding and colors than I would have imagined.



> I will be bringing home a red boy...while I probably should be looking at adding a more desirable colour to my home as my first show dog, the aspect of beating people with a colour that is clearly detested by many gets me riled up XD


Are reds hated? When I was a kid purists seemed to dislike apricots.


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## NOLA Standards

Reds are not hated.

There is color preference, and a stereotype to overcome. This is much more in the ring with judges and with the fancy than with - well I will say "pet people" and that is in no way an insult. I believe we should all be pet people, whether involved in the fancy or not.

Since I am, I can say with authority that most reds, in conformation, do live up to the substandard stereotype. MOST owners of reds do not know it nor do they care.

(It is interesting to note that both of my girls have been very well received by non color breeders - they have mentored and supported us and allowed/offered use of their top studs. Other color breeders have been the more difficult to deal with!)

Reds tend to be a bit more coarse with heavier heads and lower tail sets. They lack the head carriage that lends to the definition of "poodliness".
They started behind because of the initial red breeding (standard to mini) and have stayed a behind due to color to color breeding as the focus seemed to have been coat color instead of conformation. (see my stroke in sniah's posted question about a mini x standard litter in the breeder section)

Red breeders also for the most part are "pet breeders". They are not involved in the fancy, and thought there are arguments for and against showing, I can vouch that being involved teaches structure and movement and directs your eye toward what should be improved.

Genetically, red is identified as ee. Same as white, apricot and creme. The dilute (some say fade) and the graying gene in poodles has not yet been identified. Breeders who boast no fading are not being truthful. Red fades. The degree varies - even within the same litter.

I just bred to blue for MANY reasons. (You are welcome to call and I would discuss them with you.) PRIMARILY, for conformation, and those are some unreal little tailsets I am seeing at 4 weeks, so check one item off the list. I also got beautiful color, though it remains to be seen (at 8 weeks) if the pick pups are color. 

Silver I would not have bred to. Blue is one thing, and risks "clearing" or fading (I didn't really consider that a huge factor - I believe I already mentioned reds fade) SILVER though, is a dilute and a grey of black, so a double whammy on the red.

Also, if you study pedigrees, it does appear that once silver is introduced, it affects the color for generations.

My next breeding - Antoinette's is planned. She needs one major to finish and then will breed to Can Am Finish German FCI International Ch Carrington's Holy Moses CGC. "Mosie" carries ee, so theoretically, her litter should produce black and apricot. 

Pups from those litters, once finished and tested will be bred back to red and should, again theoretically, produce the red coat with much improved neck, carriage, tail set and ATTITUDE. I bred to Kaylen's after all!

Regards,

Tabatha 

NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree with Tabatha. The heads are either quite coarse or too refined and lacking in underjaw. Reds traditionally lack chest as well. Red breeders need to focus on improving the conformation by bringing in other colours (black, apricots, creams) , then breeding back to red to get the colour back. Too many red breeders are hung up on colour to take the risk of producing a litter that is not loaded with deep red pups. So it continues.....

When I take my black boy to shows and get talking to other breeders and handlers who are busily drooling over him, and they hear I breed primarily for reds. I usually get the big stink eye and a quick..."EWW". I get that. Having grown up in a show home where black was the colour of choice, I can certainly see where the reds need help. But, without breeders willing to breed to other colours and willing to take risks with colour breeding, the quality of the reds is never going to improve.


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## Keithsomething

Like they have said, the red leaves things (normally) to be desired...

and I don't think that red is "hated", but whenever I mention that I'm interested in reds and apricots to a breeder of blacks, whites, and silvers (and one case a brown breeder v.v; ) their whole manner of replying to me changes. It may be because alot of reds are from BYB, but it feels like they just don't care for the colour at all to me...and would rather help me out if I were to get a black, white, or silver 

though the red isn't quite there yet, I know some people that are moving in the right direction and I will not hesitate to get my dog from them! Tabatha's B and Annie are just super inspiring, showing me that though red has a long way to go they can still win in conformation if put together well


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## NOLA Standards

Also, so very few red breeders receive any respect - for good reason.

Historically they don't test, nor do they prove, they breed and sell pups and maybe talk about showing.

Be sure your potential breeder has full testing. That's much more of a concern than the color combo or how your pup might be recieved.

Tabatha


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Agreed! And do not take their word for it. Ask to see documentation of testing that has been done.

With regard to showing, I have seen very few reds being shown in North America who should be in the ring. Until they are on the way up, it is embarrassing to see some of what people are taking into the conformation ring, which in my honest opinion, only makes a lot of red breeders look more inept. This is just my opinion. Because of the pre-conception that reds are inferior and because of colour bias, I think if someone is going to walk into the ring with a red, it better shine...unless its owner has gobs of money to waste. Anyone CAN show a dog, but should they? Not always. But this does not mean that same dog could not produce some amazing progeny when bred to the right mate, who my be good enough for the show ring and do REALLY well.

I have seen photos of one red girl here in Canada who has recently finished her championship. I have looked at her and looked at her, and she is glorious. Turns out she is my Holly's great grand daughter. THAT was a rush! And on one side of her pedigree she is a near clone to my girls. So, I am now getting even more anxious to see what these girls produce bred to various boys. Their testing has been remarkable, so time will tell.


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## Jessie's Mom

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I have seen photos of one red girl here in Canada who has recently finished her championship. I have looked at her and looked at her, and she is glorious. Turns out she is my Holly's great grand daughter. THAT was a rush! And on one side of her pedigree she is a near clone to my girls. So, I am now getting even more anxious to see what these girls produce bred to various boys. Their testing has been remarkable, so time will tell.


arreau, that is wonderful news and certainly extremely gratifying for you. like you and NOLA and KS have said, it is going to take time. however, when that time comes, and it will within the dedicated group of red breeders, the product will be amazing. not that blacks, whites, and silvers aren't beautiful, but IMO they flatline next to a red with great color AND conformation.


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## NOLA Standards

Most reds carry the same pedigree varying only in the outcross. They did after all come from 1 breeding in 1980.

As for reds in the ring in North Louisiana...there is Antoinette who needs a major to finish and B, who is the youngest puppy bitch to ever point in AKC (both mine I proudly boast!), Kerry and Candace's Enzo who is pointed, Susie Osborn's Raquel who needs majors to finish, and Sheryl with Sheroc who took her "Candy" out this past weekend.


And...that's it.


So few reds in the ring, but those listed above are not bad structurally at all. I've seen them all except Candy.


In Canada, Kathy at Kalonece and Natalie at Lumiere - though I do think Katie - Natalie's last Canadian Ch actually wound up apricot. (These breeders and competitors I only know through contact at PCA and the ARPC).

All reds are related on at least one side (the red side! ha). All differ in their outcrosses which is what causes their type and structure to differ from other red breedings.

Again, don't know who the breeder is you are considering your pup from - but health testing is number 1. Don't fall for the "CH lines" promo - unless it's from the non red side - it's not true or is generations back. And if they are saying they have show puppies, you might find out how long they have been showing, if they are showing AKC or UKC, who/what they are showing and their success.


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## taem

Fascinating read, thanks guys. There is actually a red in my neighborhood that has a very heavy jaw that throws me, because otherwise she's 100% poodle. Beautiful dog though, and sweet as can be. I don't care about fading; I sort of like watching a poodle's coat shift over time. It was so fascinating seeing some of my apricots go cream and others go apricot-er. Anyway I just glanced at my 2005 Mehus-Roe Dog Bible, and it doesn't even list red as an official poodle color.

But my main concern is health. Reading things like, 40% of std poodles die of cancer, makes me stress. I tried searching to see if reds suffered higher rates of hereditary diseases but couldn't find anything. I even asked the vet, he has no clue.

I feel pretty comfortable with this breeder. Her testing is more extensive that most breeders I know, including the new juvenile renal which many breeders don't seem to do. I mean life is life and there are no guarantee but you definitely want to feel you did all you could and so far this breeder makes me feel I am doing that. She was on a short list of trustworthy breeders given to me by a breeder in SoCal and 've also been in contact with several people who got their dogs from this breeder and the breeder gets rave reviews. It's really hard searching for good breeders btw, I've been spending a metric ton of time on this. Just in general the net seems very underdeveloped for dog issues, which surprises me. I'm lucky in that poodles have a much much bigger presence than just about any other breed.

Anyway -- the sense I get is that while purists may have their quibbles, we're a long long ways from the 80s when this started and Palmares and Shangri La were getting square-chested short legged dogs. I mean you guys are talking ring stuff, and any poodle that makes it into a ring, no non-enthusaist is goiug to be able to see any flaws, imho. Seems like for someone like me, who's in it for the companionship, who loves poodles but isn't technically an enthusiast, red should not be a problem so long as I go with a good breeder to minimize health concerns. Is that fair?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

taem said:


> Fascinating read, thanks guys. There is actually a red in my neighborhood that has a very heavy jaw that throws me, because otherwise she's 100% poodle. Beautiful dog though, and sweet as can be. I don't care about fading; I sort of like watching a poodle's coat shift over time. It was so fascinating seeing some of my apricots go cream and others go apricot-er. Anyway I just glanced at my 2005 Mehus-Roe Dog Bible, and it doesn't even list red as an official poodle color.
> 
> But my main concern is health. Reading things like, 40% of std poodles die of cancer, makes me stress. I tried searching to see if reds suffered higher rates of hereditary diseases but couldn't find anything. I even asked the vet, he has no clue.
> 
> I feel pretty comfortable with this breeder. Her testing is more extensive that most breeders I know, including the new juvenile renal which many breeders don't seem to do. I mean life is life and there are no guarantee but you definitely want to feel you did all you could and so far this breeder makes me feel I am doing that. She was on a short list of trustworthy breeders given to me by a breeder in SoCal and 've also been in contact with several people who got their dogs from this breeder and the breeder gets rave reviews. It's really hard searching for good breeders btw, I've been spending a metric ton of time on this. Just in general the net seems very underdeveloped for dog issues, which surprises me. I'm lucky in that poodles have a much much bigger presence than just about any other breed.
> 
> Anyway -- the sense I get is that while purists may have their quibbles, we're a long long ways from the 80s when this started and Palmares and Shangri La were getting square-chested short legged dogs. I mean you guys are talking ring stuff, and any poodle that makes it into a ring, no non-enthusaist is goiug to be able to see any flaws, imho. Seems like for someone like me, who's in it for the companionship, who loves poodles but isn't technically an enthusiast, red should not be a problem so long as I go with a good breeder to minimize health concerns. Is that fair?


I would say you hit the nail on the head. Yes, that is absolutely fair. BTW...the JRD test is still in its infancy, and until/unless OFA endorses it (which I heard they might be doing now) I don't think very many breeders are going to buy into it. Glad to hear you have found a breeder so diligent about testing. Would this be Harmony Mountain? They have always been known for the amazing amount of testing they do on their breeding dogs. We have decided to follow in their footsteps and test as they do, sans the JRD, at this point.


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## Ruth

Interesting reading indeed! 
JRD... just the mere mention of it makes me go into a nervous breakdown... I experienced it and lost a beloved puppy from it, and I swear I wouldn't wish such an experience upon my worst enemy.

I really hope... that more breeders if not all, used that test.


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## NOLA Standards

I think you are on the right path!

Much luck to you.

Regards!

Tabatha

Ruth a lady in my neighborhood just lost her poodle at 3. A brownie from a BYB - it broke her heart. He had JRD - and cataracts and a heart issue...


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## taem

For me with the JRD test right now it's not so much the test itself, but that it speaks to the trustworthiness of the breeder. This alone can't establish trustworthiness of course, but it does speak to it I think. I'll also be looking at litters that won't have that test done, from breeders who established trustworthiness in my mind by other means.

Btw, how significant is coat color when it comes to other characteristics? Is it in any way accurate to say that if you pick a silver pup from a red-silver litter, you are getting more of the silver parent's characteristics?


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## NOLA Standards

Not sure who has the expertise to answer that question for you. 

With the litter I have - and it's my first - Carter is known to reproduce himself. Since their personalities are just now starting to show, I can't say yet if the blue or the black is more Carter than Ruby.

Really, though, I wouldn't think so ...

But that is ONLY an opinion and based on air!


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## Keithsomething

I agree with Tabatha, though I haven't bred a litter (and have no intentions of doing so XD) I doubt very much that personality is dictated by colour.

...I have heard of particular lines being bit more timid, or a bit more aggressive though...thats not necessarily colour related


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## taem

Keithsomething said:


> ...I have heard of particular lines being bit more timid, or a bit more aggressive though...thats not necessarily colour related


I've heard those things too. And then there was that experiment in Russia a long time ago where they domesticated fox and the tamed foxes changed color in subsequent generations to black and white. I mean I would assume that in most cases color is just the color gene but I was wondering.


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## Jessie's Mom

NOLA Standards said:


> I think you are on the right path!
> 
> Much luck to you.
> 
> Regards!
> 
> Tabatha
> 
> Ruth a lady in my neighborhood just lost her poodle at 3. A brownie from a BYB - it broke her heart. He had JRD - and cataracts and a heart issue...


all that @ 3? that's scary.
i don't want to highjack the thread, but just wondering when a std is out of the woods with JRD. to hear a 3 year got it made me wonder about this.


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## Bella's Momma

Keithsomething said:


> I agree with Tabatha, though I haven't bred a litter (and have no intentions of doing so XD) I doubt very much that personality is dictated by colour.
> 
> ...I have heard of particular lines being bit more timid, or a bit more aggressive though...thats not necessarily colour related


The woman that I got Bella from was going over her pedigree with me and explaining to me about a dog's temperament and how it related to whether it's ancestors were more working poodles or show poodles. Then she brought me two of her dogs as an example. Both dogs 'champions,' I believe, but one DEFINITELY had more energy to get out and "work" whilest the other one, she said, would fetch a ball if asked but really see no point in doing so and would rather be prancing around looking pretty (my words). LOL.


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## cliffdweller

taem said:


> I've heard those things too. And then there was that experiment in Russia a long time ago where they domesticated fox and the tamed foxes changed color in subsequent generations to black and white. I mean I would assume that in most cases color is just the color gene but I was wondering.


I don't know about behaviors, but there are certainly 'traits" of other sorts that are linked to color genes. Google on the canine "merle" genes, e.g., and I believe deafness and/or blindness in dalmations has been associated with their color genes (could be wrong on the latter; it's been a long time since I've researched this topic).

*__________________*


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## Bella's Momma

nu2poodles said:


> I don't know about behaviors, but there are certainly 'traits" of other sorts that are linked to color genes. Google on the canine "merle" genes, e.g., and I believe deafness and/or blindness in dalmations has been associated with their color genes (could be wrong on the latter; it's been a long time since I've researched this topic).
> 
> *__________________*


I have read about deafness in white cats with blue eyes, perhaps in 'Catchwatching.' It was a long time ago. Something about people had thought, for a while, that the blue-eyed white cats didn't make as good of mothers then they were realizing they were more often deaf than other colors.


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## cliffdweller

Bella's Momma said:


> I have read about deafness in white cats with blue eyes, perhaps in 'Catchwatching.' It was a long time ago. Something about people had thought, for a while, that the blue-eyed white cats didn't make as good of mothers then they were realizing they were more often deaf than other colors.


 
This looks like it could be a good place to do some reading if you are interested in this topic : Coat Color Inheritance in Dogs

*___________________*


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## taem

nu2poodles said:


> This looks like it could be a good place to do some reading if you are interested in this topic : Coat Color Inheritance in Dogs


Thanks for that link! Great read, the only site like it I had been able to find up til now was arpeggio.net.


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## Jeremy

Why are red breeders reluctant to outcross to other colors?

Surely the best path to breeding top quality reds would be to buy a top-notch black bitch, finish her, breed her variously to the best red/dark apricot males available, then line-breed amongst her children and grandchildren to produce red and apricot-colored offspring with the quality of their black ancestors. 

The main differential being that the line-breeding and doubling-up is done on the A-list black lineage, and not on the red side...so you'd ideally end up with red dogs with only 1/4 or even less of the "usual" red Standard pedigrees.

Alternatively, big red 17" Moyens from European champ lines could be used to open up the gene pool, no?


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## NOLA Standards

Disagree on the "big red moyens". That would be part of the problem reds face now.

And, for outcrossing...

How about you take the 7th Red AKC CH and breed her to an AM Canadian and International Champion - black, with lots of leg and neck and carriage.

Take that bitches dam, breed her to a GR CH male with a beautiful rear and great side movement - again neck and carriage.

Those pups breed back to the red line for color (and those pups may be color themselves) or to each other... though I'm not certain I wouldn't want another generation or 2 away from some of the issues of reds before I line breed. Would be based on the quality of the pups.

Not in love with the quality of the males available out there - red/apricot. Much better black studs, proven to reproduce. 

I have a pretty little topnotch _*red*_ bitch.


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## Keithsomething

I think most red breeders (or at least the ones I speak to) are more than willing to incorporate different colours into their lines to bring in structure or something they feel their reds are missing

Tabatha is a prime example of that, she bred her red bitch to a stunning blue and has some IMPRESSIVE pups out of that combo!
and she will no doubt get awesome pups out of her Annie litter as well

The premier red/apricot breeder in the country believes adamantly in breeding a red to a white and getting apricot puppies, and then breeding those puppies back to a red/apricot to bring the colour in (and I can tell you from first hand experience, his apricots are nothing to scoff at in person)

Then there is the breeder I co-own my new show girl with, she imported a black with a strong black/apricot background who will no doubt finish his Canadian Ch in a matter of weeks...and then there is my new girl who is a cream

So I think red breeders, or at least the ones trying, are doing exactly what you're suggesting...minus the moyen/klein imports

They see what needs adjusted in the reds, and they know what they like in standard poodles and they are striving for their ideal poodle


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## taem

What I don't get is why fading is considered so terrible. I happen to think a coat that fades over time is a lovely concept. But even if you don't, I simply don't get placing so much emphasis on color you would deliberately lower your structural and temperament stds and risk increased health issues. Does this happen with every breed? Like Dobies, do breeders stress having exactly the right markings and such? In that link above from nupudel, I like how chihuahuas can be any coat, long short solid parti and pattern.


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## NOLA Standards

Well I can only speak for myself.

I have a bit of an issue with the promotion of "deep red puppies". Deep red pups at birth can easily be apricots by adult, and apricots can darken. The bottom line is red breeders do not actually know what causes the color in a litter range across the spectrum from light red to deep red or what causes color to lighten or darken on a pup or and how/when/where/on who it will occur.

Am I breeding a red line? Yes. Though my first 2 breedings will be to black so a light red/deep apricot is the best I will hope for. Those puppies to red will produce a red litter, however I don't expect to be guilty of hawking "deep Irish Setter red". 

I think it's gimmicky. 

And as far as the "no fading" - we don't know. Any other answer is ...well for the sake of being politically correct ...simply not true. We do have some adults that are still a gorgeous color but we don't know what the pups are going to be.

Breeders, I think, want a red that doesn't fade, because (again my opinion) they hope that would mean the offspring of that animal wouldn't fade. However, based on the blues in my litter (to get blue a dilute gene has to be passed from each parent - and I have 2 blues, which means even though there is not a blue or silver in over 5 generations, Ruby still had a dilute to "give" to a pup - though that explanation is VERY elementary), and the fading of 9 out of 10 reds, I think that is a slim hope. It will be interesting, one day, when the details of the color (intensity, dilute, gray, et al) is known.

Until then, I think you'll continue to see the promotion of "deep red puppies" and puppies or parents that "don't fade" as a sales pitch.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Like has been discussed before, if a breeder claims their pups will not fade...hmmm....I would think they are either extremely optimistic or lying. We don't have a clue.


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## taem

Btw what would you guys guess will be the next poodle color to be developed?


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## NOLA Standards

In the ring you are starting to see some Cafe au Laits - like Cbrand's Delilah.

They won't have the conformation issues of reds though, as the color comes from breeding brown into silvers - so it's possible to stay within a variety.

Silver and Browns are both considered "color", and both have breeders who have worked hard to bring them to where they are today with respect for conformation and temperment.

There was just a silver issue of Poodle Variety and a Brown is upcoming. Both would be interesting reading!

And, in the out of the box spectrum, there are some "mad scientists" wanting to breed a red parti. Not sure how that is going to turn out, considering both parti's (other than Tintlet's, who have some strong conformation pedigrees) and reds are both lacking in conformation.

Probably long, low and doggie...


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## Jeremy

NOLA Standards said:


> Disagree on the "big red moyens". That would be part of the problem reds face now.
> 
> And, for outcrossing...
> 
> How about you take the 7th Red AKC CH and breed her to an AM Canadian and International Champion - black, with lots of leg and neck and carriage.
> 
> Take that bitches dam, breed her to a GR CH male with a beautiful rear and great side movement - again neck and carriage.
> 
> Those pups breed back to the red line for color (and those pups may be color themselves) or to each other... though I'm not certain I wouldn't want another generation or 2 away from some of the issues of reds before I line breed. Would be based on the quality of the pups.
> 
> Not in love with the quality of the males available out there - red/apricot. Much better black studs, proven to reproduce.
> 
> I have a pretty little topnotch _*red*_ bitch.


Sounds great  Wish you best of luck and well done, its good to see people breeding reds seriously !

The bit I've underlined is what I was wondering about - in general it seems people outcross and then return to the red line in order to get back the colour, but also doubling up on the red line's problems. In that breeding plan the main genetic contribution would come from your girl and her dam, who would appear multiple times, whilst the blacks would only appear once.

What I suggested was using different red or apricot dogs (the best and most distantly related possible) on a top-notch black bitch with no relation to the Palmares/Shangri-La/Farleys D reds, so when her children and grandchildred are bred, you double up on HER black lineage (hopefully devoid of the main problems which beset reds) whilst also doubling up on the red gene carried recessively by her children. 

If the black bitch and her family are generally superior in quality to most reds, you would hopefully end up with dogs in the mold of the black matriarch yet cast in beautiful red  Make sense?


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## Jeremy

Keithsomething said:


> I think most red breeders (or at least the ones I speak to) are more than willing to incorporate different colours into their lines to bring in structure or something they feel their reds are missing
> 
> Tabatha is a prime example of that, she bred her red bitch to a stunning blue and has some IMPRESSIVE pups out of that combo!
> and she will no doubt get awesome pups out of her Annie litter as well
> 
> The premier red/apricot breeder in the country believes adamantly in breeding a red to a white and getting apricot puppies, and then breeding those puppies back to a red/apricot to bring the colour in (and I can tell you from first hand experience, his apricots are nothing to scoff at in person)
> 
> Then there is the breeder I co-own my new show girl with, she imported a black with a strong black/apricot background who will no doubt finish his Canadian Ch in a matter of weeks...and then there is my new girl who is a cream
> 
> So I think red breeders, or at least the ones trying, are doing exactly what you're suggesting...minus the moyen/klein imports
> 
> They see what needs adjusted in the reds, and they know what they like in standard poodles and they are striving for their ideal poodle


Yes, Farleys D have used black and white crossings very well in breeding their reds. They are not the only ones, not only from what you are saying but also others who I have seen seriously breeding reds. 

However, two points (please correct me if I'm wrong):

1. Like I said in my above post, it generally seems like the outcross is made and then they seek to return to the red line ASAP...in such a way as to breed out the outcross and double up on the red lines (and its established problems) all over again.

2. The people cited are more a minority ("the ones trying") than majority, most _""breeders"" _are more interested in breeding the darkest, deepest reds possible with no care for the actual conformation (and sometimes health etc) of the actual dogs. Which obviously needs to change in a big and widespread way, otherwise reds will always be kinda dismissed as a "pet" color.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Jeremy said:


> Yes, Farleys D have used black and white crossings very well in breeding their reds. They are not the only ones, not only from what you are saying but also others who I have seen seriously breeding reds.
> 
> However, two points (please correct me if I'm wrong):
> 
> 1. Like I said in my above post, it generally seems like the outcross is made and then they seek to return to the red line ASAP...in such a way as to breed out the outcross and double up on the red lines (and its established problems) all over again.
> 
> 2. The people cited are more a minority ("the ones trying") than majority, most _""breeders"" _are more interested in breeding the darkest, deepest reds possible with no care for the actual conformation (and sometimes health etc) of the actual dogs. Which obviously needs to change in a big and widespread way, otherwise reds will always be kinda dismissed as a "pet" color.


I totally agree with your second point. Far too many people breeding reds are doing it because the colour is trendy and sells well. They are not willing to risk a litter that is not all going to be red by breeding out to other colours. We have purchased a black male whose Dad is now an international champion from Iceland, to bring some diversity of pedigree into our line. We have also just purchased a cream female with the same goal in mind, whose Father's pedigree is loaded with some impressive black champions. These dogs are both superior in quality (conformationally) to our reds. We see the issues and the problems and are looking toward seeing some major improvements in our own line over the next six to eight years. 

There are reds who have bred a lot whose puppies have a mother who is their grandmother who is their aunt who is their great aunt....COI's through the roof....no chance these breeders would ever consider litter who is not all red to make improvements over the long term.


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## NOLA Standards

IF I didn't have Annie, and Ruby, I would have gone with a short backed, fancy black bitch.

Fortunately, for me, both Annie (especially) and Ruby have strong black line breeding (Peckerwood) in the pedigree. Annie's conformation very nice. Exceptional for a red bitch, as is Ruby's. I am starting from a different place. AND I still need to be careful, as there are some elements in the line I don't want to double up on.

I would have the same issue with a black line, though certainly not to the degree. 

As it is, I will have to wait and see what/how the pups from each breeding develope before I made the decision to cross them back. It's possible I will need two generations before I do it...

With any program, there will be non desired traits that re-produce. Blacks/whites carry the same conformation issues, though in a given litter I don't think you would see the conformation problems as many times as you would see it in reds, just because of the lack of outcrossing.

As far as breeding back into the red - I will go back into the color (red) for a couple of reasons - and I'll be upfront here. 

First because I want to keep a red in the ring, and believe that I have the conformation "in the house" to produce another CH - even if only one out of a large litter. 

And, second, because, let's face it, red puppies sell. 

It's why red breeders talk lots about improving and keep breeding red to what they have or another substandard male standing at stud. I have an AMAZING litter on the ground, and if I don't answer the question, "Are they red?" at least 5x a week, I'll give you a dollar! That they are better apricot puppies than any red you've ever seen doesn't sizzle the brain of a potential puppy buyer like a red coat does.

Sad but true.


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## cliffdweller

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ... We see the issues and the problems and are looking toward seeing some major improvements in our own line over the next six to eight years....


Focusing on conformation, what are the issues ?

*_______________________*


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## Keithsomething

Jeremy, you're right they do bring the red/apricot back into the mix because otherwise they would loose the colour all together...I may not be a HUGE fan of line breeding, but when it is done properly it makes a statement! And in Terrys case his statement is the fact that when you see an apricot/red in the ring in my area it has Farley's D behind it...and you can tell just by looking at his dogs what he likes (and from experience and spending time with he and his dogs, I like what he has lol)

They breed reds, thats why they bring it back into the fold...otherwise they might as well be only breeding whites or blacks...at least that is how I view it.


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## NOLA Standards

Reds are long bodied, low and coarse. They lack natural head carriage and movement. They are often "slab sided".

The heads are heavy and pie shaped, often referred to as "old style", and they lack jaw.

Rears tend to show sloping croups and low tail sets that are not "carried high". If there is any rear angulation it is so slight as to not be noticable.

Some lines have pigment issues (as do some white lines).

Feet can also be large and flat (though this goes back to the heavy,coarse animal I think).

Google red standards - look at them - then go to my site and look at Antoinettte. I'm VERY fortunate to have her. She is everything most reds are not. (Pretty, refined, shortbacked, shortloined, beautiful expression, high croup, good tail set, though she is not fancy. I will breed for more leg and rear angulation).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

nu2poodles said:


> Focusing on conformation, what are the issues ?
> 
> *_______________________*


Traditionally, the reds lack chest, which has fast become an issue in all of the colours, so that is not going to be a quick or easy fix. They also lack underjaw, and even most with decent tail sets are usually not as good as a mediocre tail set in a black or white.


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## Keithsomething

NOLA Standards said:


> Fortunately, for me, both Annie (especially) and Ruby have strong black line breeding (Peckerwood) in the pedigree. Annie's conformation very nice. Exceptional for a red bitch, as is Ruby's. I am starting from a different place. AND I still need to be careful, as there are some elements in the line I don't want to double up on.


Hey Tab, How far back is the Peckerwood? My new girl has Whisperwind 5 generations back, would this work the same way? just with white instead of black?


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## NOLA Standards

Five generations is much further back, as far as the name goes (Whisperwind), but you can look for a repeat or the line breeding from the "good stuff", like Bonnie, Donna, Bobo and Tristen in Ruby's pedigree.

In most of our cases, you can all but bet those lines were never intended to creep into "pet breedings" but fortunately for us, it does sometimes happen.


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## cliffdweller

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ... the reds lack chest, which has fast become an issue in all of the colours ....


It would be interesting to know how this occured when most breeders are ostensibly breeding to "better" the conformation ? Or, perhaps it is just that there were more pressing conformation issues and the chest was more or less ignored or regarded as less important ?

*___________________*


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## NOLA Standards

"Chest" is more than just a prominent post-sternum. Front assembly includes shoulder layback, the set of the neck into the shoulders, depth of chest, breadth of chest as well as a post sternum.

Reds do lack front assemblies. But are usually more slab sided and lack depth than post sternum. 

Other colors have been bred, recently, for a straighter front. (This means the shoulder is straighter, the post sternum not as prominent and the legs are not set well back under the shoulder blades. For an illustration of a straighter, fancier front I posted Carter's picture for you. For a good reference of more shoulder layback and a more prominent post sternum that would show you the older style front you could look at all the photos of the European pup Roxie brought into the States. See how far back under the chest the legs are set.)

Straighter front, more angulated rear = fancier dog. Though IMO some have gone too far.

The trend for the past few years, has been to go to straighter fronts and more extreme, fancier animals, but there are those with great fronts still out there and I would expect to see the trend modify some.


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## nlrussell

*I wish I understood this better!*

So the picture you posted of Carter is the way you DO want the poodle to look? You want a straight chest. I didn't understand the rest of that, but I am clueless about conformation.

I love the reds! Some day...!


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## NOLA Standards

hahaha! the short answer would be YES! Any pup that looked like Carter would THRILL me!

On Carter, look at his neck, head, jaw, back and rear (croup, angulation/bend of stiffle, tail set). I love his package. His front is straighter than I prefer, he is what we call "fancy", but Ruby has a very old style chest - lots of post sternum and legs well under.

Carter's movement is beautiful to watch. Lots of reach (from the shoulder shoulder and longer arm) and drive from the angulated rear, and absolutely beautiful carriage (how he holds his neck when he stands and moves).

Breeding and conformation is always a give and take. What I most wanted from the breeding was an improvement in the rear assembly, neck and heads.

Got it.

I am not worried about front assemblies. Carter's is nice, just not as prominent a post sternum as Ruby's, so regardless of who the pups would have gotten chests from, I was ok there.

:alberteinstein: That might have been too much of an answer, again. But hopefully not! 

Tabatha

P.S. I just had the Volhard test done on all the pups. This weekend I take them to Michele for conformation evaluation. Some of that I will video, as I think it will be interesting to many.

On another note...did you get a new family member?


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## nlrussell

NOLA Standards said:


> hahaha! the short answer would be YES! Any pup that looked like Carter would THRILL me!
> 
> On Carter, look at his neck, head, jaw, back and rear (croup, angulation/bend of stiffle, tail set). I love his package. His front is straighter than I prefer, he is what we call "fancy", but Ruby has a very old style chest - lots of post sternum and legs well under.
> 
> Carter's movement is beautiful to watch. Lots of reach (from the shoulder shoulder and longer arm) and drive from the angulated rear, and absolutely beautiful carriage (how he holds his neck when he stands and moves).
> 
> Breeding and conformation is always a give and take. What I most wanted from the breeding was an improvement in the rear assembly, neck and heads.
> 
> Got it.
> 
> I am not worried about front assemblies. Carter's is nice, just not as prominent a post sternum as Ruby's, so regardless of who the pups would have gotten chests from, I was ok there.
> 
> :alberteinstein: That might have been too much of an answer, again. But hopefully not!
> 
> Tabatha
> 
> P.S. I just had the Volhard test done on all the pups. This weekend I take them to Michele for conformation evaluation. Some of that I will video, as I think it will be interesting to many.
> 
> On another note...did you get a new family member?


Thanks! I understood most of that! :ahhhhh: Ha ha ha! I will learn in time! I am amazed people can look at the pups and decide which ones are "show material". Wow.

I found a 4-year-old black miniature female. She is a retired show Champion, but was only successful in having one litter of puppies. She is five states away, and I haven't met her yet, but she sounds perfect for us. I have already paid for her, but now I'm waiting on the shipping details. I will let you know more when she gets here (maybe this Sunday). I am so nervous/anxious!!!


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## Jeremy

Keithsomething said:


> Jeremy, you're right they do bring the red/apricot back into the mix because otherwise they would loose the colour all together...I may not be a HUGE fan of line breeding, but when it is done properly it makes a statement! And in Terrys case his statement is the fact that when you see an apricot/red in the ring in my area it has Farley's D behind it...and you can tell just by looking at his dogs what he likes (and from experience and spending time with he and his dogs, I like what he has lol)
> 
> They breed reds, thats why they bring it back into the fold...otherwise they might as well be only breeding whites or blacks...at least that is how I view it.


In response to you, Nola and Arreau (posts too big for me to quote :biggrin

I don't recriminate anyone at all for breeding for a specific color at all, and given the huge expenses of breeding correctly and the very real possibility of being stuck with 10, 12 boisterous rapidly growing pups you need to bear the puppy-buying public in mind.

Basically my suggestion is to get back to the red color but without line-breeding to the red line, so you'd get dogs looking like the top-winning black lines but in a red shell.


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## Jeremy

nlrussell said:


> I found a 4-year-old black miniature female. She is a retired show Champion, but was only successful in having one litter of puppies. She is five states away, and I haven't met her yet, but she sounds perfect for us. I have already paid for her, but now I'm waiting on the shipping details. I will let you know more when she gets here (maybe this Sunday). I am so nervous/anxious!!!


Is she from Aery by any chance?


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## nlrussell

Jeremy said:


> Is she from Aery by any chance?


How did you know? Do you know her? 

Actually, she is owned by one of Richard's co-owners (if that is the correct term)


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## Jeremy

nlrussell said:


> How did you know? Do you know her?
> 
> Actually, she is owned by one of Richard's co-owners (if that is the correct term)


I don't know her, I just saw her advertised.  Is she your first Min?

I didn't understand the bit about her being successful with only one litter..? Did she have an unsuccessful litter or something?


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## nlrussell

Jeremy said:


> I don't know her, I just saw her advertised.  Is she your first Min?
> 
> I didn't understand the bit about her being successful with only one litter..? Did she have an unsuccessful litter or something?


I guess I phrased that awkwardly. She was only able to have one litter. Other breeding attempts were not successful. Of course, that doesn't matter to me. 

She is our second miniature poodle. We can't wait to get her!


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## Jeremy

Awesome! Mins are the best.


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## BigRedDog

*Red Poodles*

Yes they are gorgeous, and I love the color. 
Find a breeder who tests their dogs and has finished dogs (health and conformation). The background of the color in Standards is the main reason for the issues. This is explained on Apricot Red Poodle Club - Red Apricot Poodle Club. Some breeders breed the Red's back to Black to improve the structure, resulting in fewer Red puppies.


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## schnauzerpoodle

nlrussell said:


> How did you know? Do you know her?
> 
> Actually, she is owned by one of Richard's co-owners (if that is the correct term)


Oh, you are getting an Aery dog?

My silver mini is an Aery dog too. Maybe they are related


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