# Short muzzles poodle....



## Keithsomething

I've seen a particular standard breeder that aims for this type of head...and it just isn't something I find appealing...but I wouldn't say they were trying to market a teddy bear face, what I've been told about breeding its all perception. We have a breed standard to follow...but that standard is easily contorted so one can breed what they feel is closer to the standard whether it is or not...I'm not sure I explained that right XD

Now thats standard poodles, and I'm talking about show breeders...so these backyard toy and mini breeders may easily be aiming for that teddy bear face as a sales gimmick


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## Spencer

Hmm, I didn't know that people specifically bred for the weenie looking poodles or the short faced ones. It doesn't surprise me, though. I have seen many a' local toy poodle that looks like it is mixed with dachshund because it is so short and squat, but I just credited that to bad breeding.

The second little dog you posted doesn't seem to have THAT short of a muzzle (though it does look shorter than T's), especially if it is a toy, but I understand the annoyance. I mean, people LOVE the big, sweet eyes on dogs, but now we have shih tzu's whose eyes are in danger of falling out of their sockets if squeezed! Too far is too far, but some people never learn.


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## 3dogs

Actually those 2 are sisters & the cream does have a short face, I will try to attach a frontal to see how round the upper head is. These are both Mini Poodles.

The website that I saw that was purposely breeding the "teddy faces" to compete with the "doodle" market is Teddy Bear Miniature Poodle Puppies & so shorten the muzzle on purpose so their poodles compete with the "oodle" market. This is just what is stated on their website. The short cobby dogs I would have to look up but you can search & easily come up with "breeders" who do this on purpose.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

Not to hi-jack your thread, but since as an owner (past and hopefully future) I don't care for those short muzzles, it makes me wonder: Do other breeders breed for the long, narrower muzzle (which I prefer), and is there anything wrong with that?


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## NOLA Standards

Breeders - responsible breeders - have a breed standard to follow. That standard is very clear. Specifically regarding the head - face, expression, skull and muzzle is addressed in the Illustrated Breed Standard.

These breeders are not breeding to the standard. My opinion (worth lots to me and probably not so much to others) is that they are breeding for the Almighty Dollar - knowing (and caring) nothing about the breed as a whole rather concerned only with what will sell today.

Keith mentioned breeders contorting the breed standard...and maybe some do. But my observations leave me feeling that so many breeders don't understand the breed standard and therefor do not have an eye for what is correct and/or lacking. I'd be willing to bet many breeders are not even aware there is a breed standard. 

And sadly, puppy buyers support these breeders - never realizing instead of buying their puppies and thus encouraging their actions they could boycot them and adopt from the shelter a pup of equal quality for $100 or so that covers the spay/neuter.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

Breeders - good ones anyway - can breed for "type". Type fits the breed standard - is more about the overall picture of the animal. ***I'll try to explain here - but it's easier to learn and understand if you can get a knowledgable person to go over an animal for you and let you put your hands on it as they do.***

Annie (AKC CH Antoinette Bordeaux du NOLA's Caniche Rouge) is one type. She is pretty and well balanced - her hindquarters balance her forquarters - both of which are somewhat straight. Irma (Irma Lee est NOLA's Reine du Blues) is another type - Irma is fine boned and very fancy. She has quite a lot of angulation in the rear as well as her forequarters. 

Now - Irma has a better head. Its "cleaner". That means her head her head appears longer and narrower - and it is narrower but not longer. If you were to measure her head from the base of the skull to the occiput and the occiput to the stop and the stop to the muzzle they would be equal. Annie's skull measures correctly as well - they just look different. Both meet the standard.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

How can you tell what you're getting in a puppy when you're buying long distance and they're all fluffied up in their puppy cuts? Also, don't their faces change? They all look round faced and stubby when they're babies...

Thank you for referring me to the ISB! It answered another of my questions right away.... whether the big light round "bug eyes" that some poodles, esp brown ones, have is OK. They specifically ID it as a flaw. I've seen dogs with those eyes proudly displayed on breeder websites!


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## NOLA Standards

NJG

It has taken me a little while to be able to correctly ID the pup with the best head. 

The smartest thing people can do is purchase pups from breeders who participate in breed clubs and breed activities - whether UKC or AKC. Dogs who title have been judged against their peers and have been found worthy.
(Yes the show world is not a perfect place...we don't have to have that discussion again. However, a pup out of titled parents - which is VERY different from "CH lines" or even "with many Ch in the line" which is such a sales gimmick - will 9 times out of 10 produce better quality pups.)

Here are a couple of general rules you can use to help determine whether or not you are looking at a "good" head:

When you are able to see refinement in a pups face - at 6 and 8 and 10 weeks - that pup will likely have a snipey face. 

Look at the pups head. If it looks pie shaped that pup is going to have a heavy backskull.

On my puppies page - at :36 - :40 seconds into the video you'll see an apricot with a beautiful head. At around 1:25 you see another apricot whose head is not as nice. (and I'm not advertising pups - those babies are LONG gone! but IMO they were fabulous :beauty: ) I started shaving face feet and tails at 3 weeks. 

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## NorthJerseyGirrl

It seems like finding dogs with titled parents is even more challenging than finding dogs from breeders that test fully. Please correct me if I'm wrong but most breeders don't seem to put the title info on their websites. I guess you have to dig around in event results and rely on club referrals more than just websites?


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## NOLA Standards

Sadly, the problem is that so many of the breeding animals are not titled. Especially in red and apricot.

When we (the Royal WE which includes handler/owner and doggie!) title the title becomes part of the name, so it will most always be posted.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## 3dogs

I actually have a 3rd in my shop now with the "short" faced look. I don't know if it is from the same breeder as the 2 that I posted or not but she I think she might be from that "breeder" who has moved out of area.


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## minipoodlelover

In my search for a new puppy I saw many a mini poo with short muzzles and round eyes. I assumed people who didn't know better thought these pups were "cute," and didn't care, much less know about, the breed standard.


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