# Lean Machine or Too Thin ?



## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Rain has lost a couple lbs. over the last few months; she went from ~45 lbs. to 42.7 lbs., when I weighed her at the Vet just the other day. She is raw fed* and seems to eat an enormous amount of food (--- and poos like a Chihuahua ... aka "rain drops"). She's fairly active & athletic & has a _very_ healthy appetite. 

Here's how she looks :










Here's an example of what she eats :

Morning : 2-3 Primal nuggets (Lamb) _or_ 1 Stella & Chewey's patty (Lamb or Rabbit) _or_ 1 scoop of Ziwi Peak (Venison & Fish). I feed light in the morning, because we are frequently active early.​
Evening : 
2 small pork chops (1/3 -1/2 lb.) _or_ 1 lg. chicken leg or thigh w/another meaty bone, eg, beef rib or turkey neck

1 heaping tbs. apples (chopped, raw)

1 egg (raw)

2 tbs. potato (red or sweet)

2 tbs. green tripe (Trippett)

repeat or variation of morning meal (S&C or Primal or Ziwi Peak)

1 or 2 tbs. of cooked vegetables (whatever we're having : broccoli, peas, carrots, rice etc.)​
Treats : I make meat jerky -- she'll get about the equivalent of a small chicken breast or pork chop (~1/4 lb. wet)/day.

I am already planning to increase this a bit (add another egg or two, perhaps; or increase the morning meal) and do more research.

Think she needs more ?? Other suggestions ??


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Oy, the Jewish mother in me says she's too thin. Though I am far from any kind of expert on whether that is the case, or how best to fatten her up. Rain is all lovely, lean muscle and she's so active I would imagine she could stand to get some more calories. Others will know better how to go about getting her them. Me, I just want to hand her a sandwich! _(only half kidding!)_:eating:


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

She does look a little lean, but muscular! I would say if she continues to lose weight even after upping her caloric intake, a trip to the vet would be in order to rule out any metabolic problems or other conditions such as Addisons, Diabetes, and hyperthyroid etc.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

To me she looks great, I don't see hips poking up or a spine or ribs. She looks lean and muscular, just like a poodle should be. 

One of my dogs Sam is actually thinner than Rain at times, I can sometimes see her last two or three ribs and all of them if she moves right. I've had people basically accuse me of not feeding my dog lol. However, it's just how she is naturally. Sometimes she has enough on her, sometimes she doesn't. It all depends on the temperature and what she has been doing. 

If she loses more though I would up her intake a little. Maybe add a little more fat? Some fish oil perhaps? I didn't see fish oil listed in her meal plan.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

mom24doggies said:


> ...
> If she loses more though I would up her intake a little. Maybe add a little more fat? Some fish oil perhaps? I didn't see fish oil listed in her meal plan.


Thanks !

Both Ziwi Peak (the dried food I feed most often; air dried) and the Primal (freeze dried) contain fish oils. I will investigate feeding more.

(edit) &, I give her a can of Tuna Fish every other week or so; usually just a third of a can at a time, over 3 days.

Forgot to mention, she gets a small helping of fruit every afternoon (usually blueberries); and a small helping of cooked chicken when Gi'me (the Great White Egret) comes around for a handout.


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

She looks just like my Jasper. Regardless of what I feed him, he's a scrawny one. Have you tried satin balls?


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

jasperspoo said:


> ... Have you tried satin balls?


No, but I've looked at the recipes. I think this could be a solution if the weight loss persists despite a significant increase in her regular diet and confirmation that there is no health-related cause (my Vet was not concerned about her weight at her check-up last Tuesday). 

Since the weight loss is recent & relatively slight, at this point, I'm more or less just re-examining her current diet. She may not be getting enough, or, perhaps, a different combination of foods would make a difference. I'm new to raw feeding; one year on .... she seems to need _a lot_ of food ...


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

Oh I know what you mean about the volume of food consumed. Jasper eats twice what the pet store people say he should. Anything less and he starts looking like he's been seriously ill.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I think Rain looks great! (I personally like a like more meat on my dogs LOL!) As active as Rain is, I think it's not a matter of how much you are feeding at all! If you want more weight, add calories! I would only be concerned if She continues losing weight.......She's gorgeous!


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

well from what ive seen poodles tend to run on the thin side. Esther sure does had to work hard to get her to gain weight since she doesn't like to eat! if she keeps losing id deferentially increase it a bit.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

I have read somewhere that animals need to be fed 10-15% of their body weight each day...

I have never had an over weight animal, but I think your one is a bit on the thin side...


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## sulamk (Nov 5, 2011)

She does look lean but healthy, i personally would exchange the tuna for sardines also increase the potato.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Cammie looks a lot like Rain--thin but I think healthy.

My dogs get free access to kibble and they seem to self-regulate their intake. (They also get a limited quantity of meat with their supper.) Maybe you should try giving unlimited access to dry food, at least for limited periods? That way if Rain is still hungry, she can eat. I doubt that she will overeat. Poodles seem to be in tune with what their body needs.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

sulamk said:


> She does look lean but healthy, i personally would exchange the tuna for sardines also increase the potato.


This is a great suggestion ! Thank you !



peppersb said:


> Cammie looks a lot like Rain--thin but I think healthy.
> 
> My dogs get free access to kibble and they seem to self-regulate their intake. (They also get a limited quantity of meat with their supper.) Maybe you should try giving unlimited access to dry food, at least for limited periods? That way if Rain is still hungry, she can eat. I doubt that she will overeat. Poodles seem to be in tune with what their body needs.


Rain was free fed on kibble when she came to live with me, and, for the first year, I kept her on that feeding program (though on a better food). It worked very well for her and for me (I loved it, especially since it eliminated the craziness around meal time that had, 'til Rain, been a part of my life with dogs). Though I think some of today's kibbles are very good foods, since 2007, I have been haunted by the manufacturing process and fear of recalls. When TOTW was recalled about a year ago, I'd had enough and put Rain on the raw diet.

Here and there I've read that mixing kibble and raw is not a happy combination, but I think further research into this could prove fruitful. I've toyed with the idea of letting her have free access to Ziwi Peak, but noticed that an increase in this food (very rich) seems to produce soft stools. Like the other dried, raw foods, it's also quite expensive. 

Still, this is a great suggestion and I will research it. Thank you !


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Others have had great comments, but I would like to say something as well... She is thin, but more of a lean muscle. From what I can see she, is a very active dog... I think she is using her calories to build muscle, and so she isn't tubby...  My vet continues to tell me, as long as no bones are showing the pups are fine... I am on the fluffy side, so I always worry about the weight issue with the pups...


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I think 10 to 15% of their body weight would be way too much. Usually, rule of thumb is 3 or 4% of body weight to maintain. I would double check.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

My over-size mpoo, somewhere between 17 3/4" to 18" tall (depends who measures), fluctuates between 22.1lbs. to 23.2lbs. I tried to take a side profile picture. (Notice how he _refuses_ to hold his tail up or his stomach in for a photo?!) Chagall has more hair on his body than Rain and doesn't look quite as sleek, but his ribs are like a xylophone. Some times friends tell me he's too thin. (I silently think, "Wish they'd keep their big mouths shut.":hmpf Given your vet's satisfaction with Rain's weight and her superb energy level, I think the net is she is probably just fine and dandy. Not to mention she is enviably svelte Glad you've gotten some helpful advice here :smile:


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

nu2poodles said:


> Though I think some of today's kibbles are very good foods, since 2007, I have been haunted by the manufacturing process and fear of recalls. When TOTW was recalled about a year ago, I'd had enough and put Rain on the raw diet.


I do not trust the meat that they put in dog food. My dogs eat vegan kibble (V-dog.com), supplemented by meat that I buy directly from farmers. I have also used fish-based kibble. Wellness and Flint River Ranch (frrco.com) both have good fish and potato formulas.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> My over-size mpoo, somewhere between 17 3/4" to 18" tall (depends who measures), fluctuates between 22.1lbs. to 23.2lbs.


This won't matter to a soul but me, however, it seems I "inflated" Chagall's weight. Just had him at the vet's where he weighed in at *20.1lbs.* The good news; our bathroom scale is a few pounds off. The not-so-good-news, maybe my friends are right and he _is _a bit thin?? Nah, I think he's fine just the way he is.


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## frankgrimes (Nov 28, 2011)

I struggle to put weight on Ralph. He's a mere 46 pounds but the vet tells me he's fine. I believe he looks slimmer than your Rain, for what it's worth. I would kill to have their metabolism!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think she looks well muscled and healthy. Swizzle also eats raw and consumes at least 4% of his body weight daily plus bones and treats. He is active and he just needs it. You may try modifying her diet so she gains a little if you like but she looks great to me and so does Chagall. I think this is the way poodles are meant to look, lean but well muscled.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think she looks fine. Lily is built like Rain I think. Lily is 22 3/4" at the withers and weighs about 35-36 lbs, depending on time of year (lighter in summer). Like Rain she is very active. She eats but just burns it up. She free feeds dry food and gets nice treats (bits of our steak, yogurt (homemade), fruits and veggies). She eats quite a bit and is food motivated in training. 

Some people think she is too thin. One person who teaches at my club puts hands on her quite frequently for the utility moving stand. He always tells her to get me to give her some pasta when he finishes. The most important evaluator is my vet who thinks she's fine! He is a poodle person to boot (also has a spoo now, toy before). I would only really be concerned if she lost any more weight. Also be sure she really has lost the weight you think she has. Was she weighed on a different scale recently?


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> I think she looks fine. Lily is built like Rain I think. Lily is 22 3/4" at the withers and weighs about 35-36 lbs, depending on time of year (lighter in summer). Like Rain she is very active. She eats but just burns it up. She free feeds dry food and gets nice treats (bits of our steak, yogurt (homemade), fruits and veggies). She eats quite a bit and is food motivated in training.
> 
> Some people think she is too thin. One person who teaches at my club puts hands on her quite frequently for the utility moving stand. He always tells her to get me to give her some pasta when he finishes. The most important evaluator is my vet who thinks she's fine! He is a poodle person to boot (also has a spoo now, toy before). I would only really be concerned if she lost any more weight. Also be sure she really has lost the weight you think she has. Was she weighed on a different scale recently?


I think Rain is 23-24", but I don't have access to a wicket. I would not be concerned, except that she eats what seems to be an enormous amount of food for her size & seems to be hungry still. This was not the case when I was free feeding her kibble, & I'm a little concerned that she needs something that she's not getting (I liked free feeding very much, but worried about the kibble recalls, etc, as previously mentioned).

My Vet, like yours, is not concerned. Rain was clipped very short when the photo was taken. I think the last 2 weights _were _from different scales, but before those, she was a pretty constant ~45 lbs., on the same scale as the last measure. I've increased her food a bit, and think I may try a good kibble for the AM meal (-- she's getting dried raw plus egg now).

Also, her exercise level is a little less now (Lucky has gone back to her home up North, so no daily play sessions).

Thank you; I'll keep a watch on it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Lene said:


> I have read somewhere that animals need to be fed 10-15% of their body weight each day...
> 
> I have never had an over weight animal, but I think your one is a bit on the thin side...


You probably got that number because with raw feeding, young puppies may be fed 10-15% of their body weight until that 10-15% surpasses the equivalent of 2-3% of their ideal adult body weight. Otherwise, you can just feed 2-3% of their ideal adult body weight from the get go.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I understand your concerns about kibble recalls. I feel pretty tied to dry diet and free feeding because of Peeves. Lily seems to have a cast iron stomach and took to the food transitions I've done with little problem. Poor Peeves (like many GSDs) has a very sensitive digestive tract. He came to us from his breeder on Royal Canin but since Lily was already eating Eukanuba we switched him then (went pretty well/fast). Then we switched from puppy to adult. Also pretty ok, but when I switched to Blue it was very hard on him. I had to go super slow. I would bury the new stuff under the old, but they would dig it out and eat that instead of the old. He had such bad diarrhea after the first day (and I had put less than 10% new in the bowl) that I stayed home from work for two days.

I hope that giving Rain a portion of good kibble and a little change in activity level will re-stabilize her weight where you want her to be with no concerns. She has such a great life in the great outdoors. Nothing should get in the way of it.


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

I think she looks perfect. I think the general public is so used to seeing overweight dogs, that dogs that are truly at a healthy weight are seen as skinny/starving. I like my dogs to have a defined waist and very little fat. 

Does Rain's spine poke out?


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Locket said:


> I think she looks perfect. I think the general public is so used to seeing overweight dogs, that dogs that are truly at a healthy weight are seen as skinny/starving. I like my dogs to have a defined waist and very little fat.
> 
> Does Rain's spine poke out?


No. Her back is smooth and well muscled; her hips are slightly visible. I'm used to the field dogs looking like Rain does now, but, since I am relatively new to raw feeding, was a little concerned about the weight loss --- especially because she eats what seems to be a large quantity of food.

Next shave-down should be an indication of whether a little more food has put a lb. or 2 back on her (she has too much hair now to tell). You can just see the hips in this photo, taken the same day as above :


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Seelie is very slender. Or skinny IMO. I keep a bit of hair on him to hide it. He eats about 2 pounds a day of raw (4% of his ideal weight ) and sometimes skips meals. That makes me :argh: he needs an additional 5 pounds. 

He's almost 2, so some of his skinny is being a young unaltered male. 

But he's super active and I've just learned to not stress. 
Raw is best in my opinion and lean and fit is better


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

I would offer her more food, but not force it or be concerned if she didn't eat it. She looks great now, but I think she would look even better with a bit more bulk (muscle that is), but if she won't eat more I wouldn't worry about it.


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