# Arbitrary, or not?



## ArreauStandardPoodle

JoeyLondon said:


> I read somewhere that liver points on a red poodle are considered a 'fault.' However, from what I've seen of the genetics, liver vs. black seems to be arbitrary. In fact, liver points could make more sense because it's recessive, so if you have two liver-point parents, you know that all of the pups will have liver points as well.
> 
> Is it because you don't want to breed red poodles to brown poodles, and liver points demonstrate that the dog has brown in its background? And why not brown dogs? The eumelanin of the dog doesn't seem (so far from what I've read on the genetics sites) to have much to do with the phaeomelanin (the red) of the dog, since the phaeomelanin is only expressed in the coat.
> 
> I also read something about the genetic diversity, or lack thereof, of the _american (not the european) lines of the black poodles, due to a very popular stud dog back in the thirties. If one of the goals of red poodle breeding is to increase the genetic diversity (lower the COI) of the color, isn't it at cross-purposes to breed to another color that lacks diversity? Within a generation or two of this strategy, wouldn't you have the same amount (or more) of undesirable alleles in the population?
> 
> Okay, I'm sleepy. I might need to review this post, to perhaps find my own logical errors. Thanks for any feedback!_


_

Liver points, in the standard of the breed, are acceptable, but not desired in some colours. So breeding away from liver in the reds is what most breeders do. Thai is why we would not purposely breed to brown or to anything with brown to close back in its pedigree.

There is loads of diversity in the blacks, you just have to research. And you would not be breeding every generation to black or it would not take long until you lost your colour altogether. Every second or third generation bred to black should improve the quality of the reds, and unless a person had a ton of breeding bitches, there are lots of great quality blacks out there, with a lot of diversity to choose from._


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## Vibrant

I'm interested in knowing the name of the stud dog from the '30's.(was Annsown Gay Knight in the 30's?)
I know we got into a genetic bottleneck with the Wycliffe dogs in the '60's...beautiful dogs bred to their beautiful sisters, and daughters and mothers. Then again in the '80's we ran into Eaton Affirmed and other popular sires who passed on their good looks and their health issues as well.
It's difficult to find a poodle these days without Wycliffe in its background.
With the red gene pool being so small, it makes sense to breed out to black occasionally, not only to improve the conformation but to increase the genetic diversity. And you're right JoeyLondon, you'll arrive right back where you started if you breed out to blacks with low diversity...the key would be to find blacks with unique diverse pedigrees. Not easy to find, but there are some out there.


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## JoeyLondon

*Oops!*

Thank you, Arreau and Vibrant!

Sorry about my error regarding the decade. I WAS thinking of the Wycliffe dogs. That's what I get for posting at four in the morning- I couldn't remember the name of the dogs, AND I got the decade wrong. Although, now I know a few more names to help me interpret pedigrees!

Anyway, I seem to have developed a poodle-research obsession. Whenever my fiance asks me what I'm up to lately, I find myself answering 'poodles.'


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

JoeyLondon said:


> Thank you, Arreau and Vibrant!
> 
> Sorry about my error regarding the decade. I WAS thinking of the Wycliffe dogs. That's what I get for posting at four in the morning- I couldn't remember the name of the dogs, AND I got the decade wrong. Although, now I know a few more names to help me interpret pedigrees!
> 
> Anyway, I seem to have developed a poodle-research obsession. Whenever my fiance asks me what I'm up to lately, I find myself answering 'poodles.'


I hear you!! I seem to spend all my free time looking at vertical pedigrees of prospective males to breed my ladies to!!


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## JoeyLondon

"There is loads of diversity in the blacks, you just have to research. And you would not be breeding every generation to black or it would not take long until you lost your colour altogether. Every second or third generation bred to black should improve the quality of the reds, and unless a person had a ton of breeding bitches, there are lots of great quality blacks out there, with a lot of diversity to choose from." (Quoting Arreau)

----
That's good to know- I was curious about that, because in my mind, every black poodle had turned into a first cousin of every other black poodle!


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## Vibrant

Inbreeding

This is a good read. It tells me that there is not a lot of genetic diversity in standard poodles today. It takes great detective work to find unique pedigrees.


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## JoeyLondon

Vibrant said:


> Inbreeding
> 
> This is a good read. It tells me that there is not a lot of genetic diversity in standard poodles today. It takes great detective work to find unique pedigrees.


Actually, I did read that!  Thanks for the link. I wanted to read about that again, I just couldn't recall how to find it. Now I'm going to bookmark it...


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## JoeyLondon

*A couple of other links on colour genetics..*

Dog Coat Colour Genetics

Dog Coat Color Genetics

And then, of course, there's the mysterious G locus...

The G Locus, Progressive Greying


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## JoeyLondon

"I hear you!! I seem to spend all my free time looking at vertical pedigrees of prospective males to breed my ladies to!!"


See, that's why I joined the forum! I need some people to talk to!


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## JoeyLondon

*DNA tests for small gene pools?*



Vibrant said:


> Inbreeding
> 
> This is a good read. It tells me that there is not a lot of genetic diversity in standard poodles today. It takes great detective work to find unique pedigrees.


Y'know, they do genetic analysis with crime scene evidence. I know the standard practice is to look at pedigrees to calculate COI's. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for a company to develop a test, much like the genetic testing they do to determine the father of a human child, that could calculate the amount of genetic difference between a potential dam and sire.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

The boy I recently imported from Iceland has no common ancestors to my girls in the (first five generations). The COI of their offspring should be less than 1%. So, it can be done.


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## Vibrant

(ArreauStandardPoodle;98577]The boy I recently imported from Iceland has no common ancestors to my girls. The COI of their offspring should be less than 1%. So, it can be done.)

How many generations did you go back?
With the little time I spent looking, I found Wycliffe Ian and Wycliffe Thomas in both their pedigrees. So they do, in fact, have some common ancestors, which is very common in standard poodles these days.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Sorry, i should have clarified what I meant. I do not see any common ancestors in the first five generations. I don't mind if there are common ancestors WAY back. The COI is important to me and I want my pups to be below 7%. With Quincy and the girls, it will be less than 1%, so any common ancestors are a long way back because they are making little to no impact on the COI at all.


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## Vibrant

JoeyLondon said:


> Y'know, they do genetic analysis with crime scene evidence. I know the standard practice is to look at pedigrees to calculate COI's. I don't see why it wouldn't be possible for a company to develop a test, much like the genetic testing they do to determine the father of a human child, that could calculate the amount of genetic difference between a potential dam and sire.


As a matter of fact, you may find this interesting. It's a big file, but starts on page 18.
http://www.poodleclubcanada.com/MARCH_2010.pdf


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## JoeyLondon

*One woman's stinky man is another woman's aphrodisiac...*



Vibrant said:


> As a matter of fact, you may find this interesting. It's a big file, but starts on page 18.
> http://www.poodleclubcanada.com/MARCH_2010.pdf


You might be reading my mind. I was, in fact, thinking specifically about the Major Histocompatibility Complex, and how it would apply to dogs, and dogs' health- SPECIFICALLY with regards to autoimmune disorders. 

(For human females, the best way to tell if you've found a good 'mate' for the health of your potential offspring is through scent. A man that smells good to you around ovulation is a man that has an MHC that is very different from your own, and thus, someone you could have healthy children with. Men that smell good to you when you're pregnant (or on birth control), tend to have MHCs that are similar to yours.) 

So yes, I found that VERY, VERY interesting. The health survey they're building sounds like an important tool, as well, for the long-term health/diversity of the Standard Poodle. 

It sounds like, if I was a breeder, I would use Dr. Lohi's test in conjunction with COI analysis. With that kind of analysis, you could guarantee the health of your puppies with quite a lot less sweat.


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## jonny cash

Vibrant said:


> (ArreauStandardPoodle;98577]The boy I recently imported from Iceland has no common ancestors to my girls. The COI of their offspring should be less than 1%. So, it can be done.)
> 
> How many generations did you go back?
> With the little time I spent looking, I found Wycliffe Ian and Wycliffe Thomas in both their pedigrees. So they do, in fact, have some common ancestors, which is very common in standard poodles these days.


even with dogs with a low coi, it is very hard to find a dog that does not have one of the wycliffe dogs as one of the top contributors to its' coi. dassin debauchery, eaton affirmed, and haus brau executive of acadia are also very common. the effects of these dogs will be around for a long time.


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## JoeyLondon

*Hmmm...now all I need is a laboratory...*



jonny cash said:


> even with dogs with a low coi, it is very hard to find a dog that does not have one of the wycliffe dogs as one of the top contributors to its' coi. dassin debauchery, eaton affirmed, and haus brau executive of acadia are also very common. the effects of these dogs will be around for a long time.


Very true. Humans suffered a serious genetic bottleneck about 50-100,000 years ago, and its effects are seen to this day. The species most closely related to us, chimpanzees, are about six times as genetically diverse as we are. In fact, I'm willing to bet that the genetic basis of a number of human autoimmune diseases we still have today could be traced back to this bottleneck.

Mount Toba : Late Pleistocene human population bottlenecks, volcanic winter, and differentiation of modern humans

I read in the article you sent me that the miniatures and the toys each have 10 different MHC's in their DNA, and that part of the solution to the Standard Poodle's low MHC haplotype number might be 'judicious' crossbreeding with the other two varieties. 

The article also said that the Saluki has 24 haplotypes. I propose this (expensive) solution. We could create transgenic Standard Poodles. Using specially-designed restriction enzymes, we chop out a too-common MHC haplotype in poodle DNA, and insert a novel (like one of the Saluki's) MHC strand. This part has been done in mice for years. The second part, testing for successful integration of the novel haplotype, could be more complicated and potentially more morally ambiguous (if you choose to cull rather than sterilize). If you can test for successful transgenesis at, say, the 16-cell stage, you can easily sort out those zygotes/blastocysts that have incorporated the desired DNA. Implant those embryos into a surrogate, and, voila! MHC diversity! If it's not possible to test at this stage, test after the puppies have been born. Those that integrated the novel DNA should be introduced into careful breeding programs, while those that didn't should be spayed/neutered and offered to adoptive families. 

We could also do extensive genetic testing of the Standard poodle population at large, to locate novel mutations in the MHC. Those dogs could then be tapped to contribute in breeding programs as well.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

jonny cash said:


> even with dogs with a low coi, it is very hard to find a dog that does not have one of the wycliffe dogs as one of the top contributors to its' coi. dassin debauchery, eaton affirmed, and haus brau executive of acadia are also very common. the effects of these dogs will be around for a long time.


But hopefully people will breed wisely and eventually get away from these dogs in time. It sure isn't going to happen overnight.

I have been paying close attention to Eaton Affirmed. When you go onto PHR and do a vertical pedigree he does have things show up in his decendants, that is for sure. But it all does seem relative. He sired over 67 litters of puppies to many different females, and when you see the number of offspring he had and how few of them developed illness, it makes me wonder how much the dams of these litters played a role in the illness in the first place. If he was a hotbed of trouble, you would think more of his children, with more females would have fallen ill. 

I cannot get over how many of these trouble spots were in the backgrounds of the dogs I grew up with. Now with PHR at our fingertips, I look into some of those dogs and do not wonder why so many of them died around ten years old. Most of them had high COI's, so for me, this is a huge mystery solved. The longest lived Spoo we had lived to be sixteen and a half, and he was bred by By-Jo Poodles, a very small hobby breeder who didn't care if the dogs in the background of her pups impressed other breeders. And that must have resulted in something special because unless fallen by some weird calamity, her pups all lived good long lives. Our old guys only issue ever were ear problems.

BTW...Quincy's COI is less than 1%, but the top contributors are all the dogs you mentioned.


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## jonny cash

too few breeders consider longevity when looking at breedings. i feel this and temperment should be a top consideration. if a breeder is not in too big a hurry this can be done. even then it can still be aroll of the dice. every breeder takes a chance with every litter. you just try to do all your homework', and hope for the best. i don't think any breeder wants to put health problems out there, but i think some put other considerations ahead of health. i wondered the same about eaton affirmed, and had kind of came to the same conclusion, although there is a heavy wycliffe influence in his background. haus brau executive is the top contributor to his coi. affirmed's sire, desperado, is the prototype for todays standard poodle IMO. he had the look that is stamped on all the dogs that i like the look of today. i think that is where the problem lies.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

jonny cash said:


> too few breeders consider longevity when looking at breedings. i feel this and temperment should be a top consideration. if a breeder is not in too big a hurry this can be done. even then it can still be aroll of the dice. every breeder takes a chance with every litter. you just try to do all your homework', and hope for the best. i don't think any breeder wants to put health problems out there, but i think some put other considerations ahead of health. i wondered the same about eaton affirmed, and had kind of came to the same conclusion, although there is a heavy wycliffe influence in his background. haus brau executive is the top contributor to his coi. affirmed's sire, desperado, is the prototype for todays standard poodle IMO. he had the look that is stamped on all the dogs that i like the look of today. i think that is where the problem lies.


Well, we know this problem is going to go on for many generations to come because one of Eaton Affirmed's daughters, the product of frozen semen, was shown at Westminster a year or two ago. Her COI must be atrocious. And they will be breeding her, keeping this cycle going for a long time. I hope breeding Quincy to our red bitches helps dilute the influence of the Wycliffe dogs. We need this diversity in the reds and I need it in my lines because the gene pool in the reds is miniscule. I am afraid if some of the other red breeders do not start taking this bull by the horns, the reds will disappear as quickly as they appeared with little to no improvement being made in their conformation. What a shame that would be after all the hard work of the three kennels in North America who developed them here. Because of how they were developed, using red minis with Standards, I wonder if they suffer the same issues in their DNA as the Standards mentioned in the PCC article. Hopefully the mini influence has made somewhat of a difference in the reds. If that is the case, we could have a gem in the reds, and other colours could use them to outcross with to improve the situation in general.


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## JoeyLondon

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, we know this problem is going to go on for many generations to come because one of Eaton Affirmed's daughters, the product of frozen semen, was shown at Westminster a year or two ago. Her COI must be atrocious. And they will be breeding her, keeping this cycle going for a long time. I hope breeding Quincy to our red bitches helps dilute the influence of the Wycliffe dogs. We need this diversity in the reds and I need it in my lines because the gene pool in the reds is miniscule. I am afraid if some of the other red breeders do not start taking this bull by the horns, the reds will disappear as quickly as they appeared with little to no improvement being made in their conformation. What a shame that would be after all the hard work of the three kennels in North America who developed them here. Because of how they were developed, using red minis with Standards, I wonder if they suffer the same issues in their DNA as the Standards mentioned in the PCC article. Hopefully the mini influence has made somewhat of a difference in the reds. If that is the case, we could have a gem in the reds, and other colours could use them to outcross with to improve the situation in general.


Would it not be beneficial to do MORE outcrosses to the largest of the miniature poodles? Surely the COI's would be encouraging, and you'd get the MHC diversity as well. Yes, the dogs would be smaller standards for a few generations, but if the black poodle breeders did the same thing, could you improve the diversity of both colors, and sort out for size along the way?

I have to say, with what I've learned about the possible positive impact of the involvement of miniatures in the red poodle lines, I'm kind of leaning towards red right now.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

JoeyLondon said:


> Would it not be beneficial to do MORE outcrosses to the largest of the miniature poodles? Surely the COI's would be encouraging, and you'd get the MHC diversity as well. Yes, the dogs would be smaller standards for a few generations, but if the black poodle breeders did the same thing, could you improve the diversity of both colors, and sort out for size along the way?


There are some shockingly gorgeous Kleins or Moyens which in Europe is called a dwarf. They are apparently the result of breeding minis to small Standards until they became their own entity there. Maybe THEY would bring some new blood and diversity into the equation. Right now, I am willing to sacrifice colour for a generation to improve conformation. I would be willing to look at this if I get the results I want, but only after setting the colour again. Gosh, I wonder if I will live this long. Well, my co-owner is a lot younger than I am....


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## jonny cash

JoeyLondon said:


> Would it not be beneficial to do MORE outcrosses to the largest of the miniature poodles? Surely the COI's would be encouraging, and you'd get the MHC diversity as well. Yes, the dogs would be smaller standards for a few generations, but if the black poodle breeders did the same thing, could you improve the diversity of both colors, and sort out for size along the way?


there is one breeder that i know of that is doing this now. there was an article in poodle review in the jan/feb issue. her name is julia borst reed. i have seen one of the dogs she produced. although it is not the look that i personally prefer, i admire the courage and patience that it took. i am very interested to see what she produces as she takes these dogs back to standards. in the end i do think it will bring some much needed diversity to the gene pool, and breeders down the road will appreciate this.


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## Vibrant

(The article also said that the Saluki has 24 haplotypes. I propose this (expensive) solution. We could create transgenic Standard Poodles. Using specially-designed restriction enzymes, we chop out a too-common MHC haplotype in poodle DNA, and insert a novel (like one of the Saluki's) MHC strand. This part has been done in mice for years. The second part, testing for successful integration of the novel haplotype, could be more complicated and potentially more morally ambiguous (if you choose to cull rather than sterilize). If you can test for successful transgenesis at, say, the 16-cell stage, you can easily sort out those zygotes/blastocysts that have incorporated the desired DNA. Implant those embryos into a surrogate, and, voila! MHC diversity! If it's not possible to test at this stage, test after the puppies have been born. Those that integrated the novel DNA should be introduced into careful breeding programs, while those that didn't should be spayed/neutered and offered to adoptive families.)

WOW...this would make for expensive (albeit healthy) puppies!!! 

(We could also do extensive genetic testing of the Standard poodle population at large, to locate novel mutations in the MHC. Those dogs could then be tapped to contribute in breeding programs as well.)

Wouldn't that be great! However, there would always be the threat of the novel mutation carriers being overused, creating another bottleneck and bringing other health issues into the mix...:scared:


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## JoeyLondon

*One of us is Watson, and the other Holmes...*

(We could also do extensive genetic testing of the Standard poodle population at large, to locate novel mutations in the MHC. Those dogs could then be tapped to contribute in breeding programs as well.)

Wouldn't that be great! However, there would always be the threat of the novel mutation carriers being overused, creating another bottleneck and bringing other health issues into the mix...:scared:[/QUOTE]

-----
Yes, that would be a definite pitfall of my second suggestion! It would take careful, restrained breeding on the part of the poodle community, along with longitudinal pedigree studies to see if the mutation is beneficial before it was tapped to contribute to the population at large.

However, eventually, if everyone bred for low COI's, and diverse MHC's, the overall effect would be a net positive. 

I also wish for world peace, and believe that the children are our future...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Vibrant said:


> (The article also said that the Saluki has 24 haplotypes. I propose this (expensive) solution. We could create transgenic Standard Poodles. Using specially-designed restriction enzymes, we chop out a too-common MHC haplotype in poodle DNA, and insert a novel (like one of the Saluki's) MHC strand. This part has been done in mice for years. The second part, testing for successful integration of the novel haplotype, could be more complicated and potentially more morally ambiguous (if you choose to cull rather than sterilize). If you can test for successful transgenesis at, say, the 16-cell stage, you can easily sort out those zygotes/blastocysts that have incorporated the desired DNA. Implant those embryos into a surrogate, and, voila! MHC diversity! If it's not possible to test at this stage, test after the puppies have been born. Those that integrated the novel DNA should be introduced into careful breeding programs, while those that didn't should be spayed/neutered and offered to adoptive families.)
> 
> WOW...this would make for expensive (albeit healthy) puppies!!!
> 
> (We could also do extensive genetic testing of the Standard poodle population at large, to locate novel mutations in the MHC. Those dogs could then be tapped to contribute in breeding programs as well.)
> 
> Wouldn't that be great! However, there would always be the threat of the novel mutation carriers being overused, creating another bottleneck and bringing other health issues into the mix...:scared:




And that is likely exactly what would happen. Everyone and their Uncle would want to use this dog, or get a puppy out of this dog to add to their own breeding rpograms and then what a mess this would create. Hmmmm...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

JoeyLondon said:


> (We could also do extensive genetic testing of the Standard poodle population at large, to locate novel mutations in the MHC. Those dogs could then be tapped to contribute in breeding programs as well.)
> 
> Wouldn't that be great! However, there would always be the threat of the novel mutation carriers being overused, creating another bottleneck and bringing other health issues into the mix...:scared:


-----
Yes, that would be a definite pitfall of my second suggestion! It would take careful, restrained breeding on the part of the poodle community, along with longitudinal pedigree studies to see if the mutation is beneficial before it was tapped to contribute to the population at large.

However, eventually, if everyone bred for low COI's, and diverse MHC's, the overall effect would be a net positive. 

I also wish for world peace, and believe that the children are our future... [/QUOTE]

ROFL!!!!!


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## Vibrant

I considered breeding Cheers (a 20" standard) to a mini. In fact, she has mini in her pedigree, which was part of the breeding to bring red into the standard lines. I had a spectacular boy picked out, had spoken to his owner and she was quite excited about it as well, but then she told me he had produced a blind puppy with retinal hypoplasia. I was very disappointed, but didn't want to introduce this health issue into the standard lines.
I've heard good things about mini/standard crosses, but they are not 'immune' to health problems (Tiara Mini Me)


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## JoeyLondon

*Okay, maybe Watson, Crick, and Franklin!*



Vibrant said:


> I considered breeding Cheers (a 20" standard) to a mini. In fact, she has mini in her pedigree, which was part of the breeding to bring red into the standard lines. I had a spectacular boy picked out, had spoken to his owner and she was quite excited about it as well, but then she told me he had produced a blind puppy with retinal hypoplasia. I was very disappointed, but didn't want to introduce this health issue into the standard lines.
> I've heard good things about mini/standard crosses, but they are not 'immune' to health problems (Tiara Mini Me)


Definitely not a mini to use in any type of breeding, I would hope!

Oh yeah- the basic health testing would still apply in my sunny, shiny, perfect world.


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## cbrand

jonny cash said:


> there is one breeder that i know of that is doing this now. there was an article in poodle review in the jan/feb issue. her name is julia borst reed. i have seen one of the dogs she produced. although it is not the look that i personally prefer, i admire the courage and patience that it took. i am very interested to see what she produces as she takes these dogs back to standards. in the end i do think it will bring some much needed diversity to the gene pool, and breeders down the road will appreciate this.


This is the Tiara kennel. It should be noted that her Mini/Standard breeding produced a Poodle that although "Standard" sized, had health issues typically seen in Minis"
http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_pedigree.pl?id=130354

COI is not everything.


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## cbrand

jonny cash said:


> too few breeders consider longevity when looking at breedings. i feel this and temperment should be a top consideration.


Define longevity. My Sabrina's sire is almost 14 year old. Yet, he is sire to at least 7 dogs who have Bloated and Grandsire to two littermates who just Bloated at age 2.


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## NOLA Standards

*fly in the butter*

The first Standard I was around belonged to (now) ex-husband.

Black bitch Wycliff (in)breeding- lived to almost 17 - no health issues at all until old age just got to be too much... 

Not voting...just sayin...


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## jonny cash

cbrand said:


> Define longevity. My Sabrina's sire is almost 14 year old. Yet, he is sire to at least 7 dogs who have Bloated and Grandsire to two littermates who just Bloated at age 2.


that is why breeding is always a roll of the dice. looking at longevity is always subjective. healthy dogs can get run over, and an unhealthy dog can be treated and live a long time. you do not always know the reason why a dog had a short life. you just do your research and do the best that you can.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

jonny cash said:


> that is why breeding is always a roll of the dice. looking at longevity is always subjective. healthy dogs can get run over, and an unhealthy dog can be treated and live a long time. you do not always know the reason why a dog had a short life. you just do your research and do the best that you can.


I could not agree more. The more tools we have to do the research the better the chance of producing a healthy litter of pups.


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> This is the Tiara kennel. It should be noted that her Mini/Standard breeding produced a Poodle that although "Standard" sized, had health issues typically seen in Minis"
> http://www.phrdatabase.com/cgi_bin/pp_pedigree.pl?id=130354
> 
> COI is not everything.


I agree coi is not everything , saying you have a low COI does not guarantee anything.


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