# Definitions?



## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

I would like someone to define what a Back Yard Breeder is. Is it someone who has a female and breeds her a couple of times? Is it someone who is more like a back yard puppymill?

What do you call the novice breeder who is just getting started? Everyone has to start somewhere, sometime, before they have the years of experience.

Now the couple I got Luce from, I would not call her a "breeder", she has a male and female who got pregnant, Luce was one of 4 pups. She let the female get pregnant a second time the very next heat. The young woman was also pregnant at the time and there was a definite lapse in the judgement to let the dogs be together during the heat - you can't trust them!! 

I lost touch with her, and pray this poor dog didn't have a 3rd litter. To me that would be a little puppy mill of 1. I've called and left messages, texted her but never got a response.

Anyway, I would like some clarification.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

For me the definition of a back yard breeder is someone with just one or two females who mates them - deliberately or through lack of care - without giving much thought to the compatibility of the dogs, and with an eye to profit rather than the welfare of the pups. A BYB doesn't health tsst, and is probably unaware that tests beyond a vet check exist, and has little if any knowledge of the lines being bred - the old way of avoiding health issues.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

I generally agree with FJM's definition of a BYB. I think there is a range of breeders from millers to irresponsible breeders to reputable breeders and it can be very difficult to fit individuals into categories or for folks to even agree on what makes a breeder more or less responsible. Some breeders I would consider BYBs / less responsible do some health testing, but don't title their dogs or appear to put thought into finding good matches (e.g., they breed the two dogs they happen to have). Some breeders who have dogs with titles out the wazoo aren't ones I would feel comfortable supporting.

For me, a responsible breeder is one who 
- does health testing in accordance with the national breed club
- works and proves their dogs in some venue (e.g., conformation, agility, obedience, hunt, SAR)
- researches pedigrees and gathers information necessary to find the best match in terms of health, conformation, and temperament
- provides their dogs necessary health care, physical, and mental stimulation as well as a generally enriching life (i.e., their dogs are their pets, not breeding stock*)
- is active in the "dog world" (e.g., local or national dog clubs, conformations and/or performance sports, mentoring other breeders, participation in research studies)
- is open to a continuing relationship with their puppy buyers
- is extremely knowledgeable about the breed
(I'm sure I could think of more traits, but it's early after a long weekend  )

The individual Luce came from, I would consider a BYB / irresponsible breeder. One litter is an accident; a second (and any subsequent litters) is clearly irresponsible.

Puppy mills and commercial breeders are those who do treat their animals like breeding machines - their only use for the dogs is to churn out puppies and turn a profit for their business. Mills are often unsanitary, disgusting places; whereas, commercial operations may be pristine. Neither are good for the dogs or puppies.

I like this breeder comparison chart for describing general characteristics of breeders. Ethically, I could only support hobby and reputable experienced breeders. Keep in mind, too, people and practices don't fit into neat categories; real life is messy. 

For novice breeders, it depends on how they go about breeding and making necessary decisions. There is the "gee, I've got an intact male and an intact female, lets have puppies" approach and there's the "I think I'd like to breed [insert breed name], so I'll start by learning as much as I can before having a first litter." CharismaticMillie on PF just had her first litter; she's someone I would consider very responsible and reputable. You can look through her posts to read about her journey. 

* I have no objection to the term breeding stock as that is how many breeders refer to their dogs; however, I do object to treating dogs (or any animals, really) like breeding machines. Hope that makes sense.

This is probably more than you wanted to know. Sorry.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

I used to have a friend who had a sister who had a female poodle mix of some sort. When the family wanted to pay for a vacation she would breed her dog to some other small dog and sell the pups for a couple hundred each. Obviously no testing for health issues and it didn't matter what she bred her female to, as long as it was cute. That kinda defines the BYB to me. Not large enough in scale to be a Mill but no ethics or thought as to what she was doing. She just needed vacation money or a car down payment or something.

Rick


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## blacky55667 (Dec 29, 2013)

Back yard breeder=small scale, breeds for money, no health tests, lots of whoops breedings, sometimes inbreeding, usually care about their breeding dogs, usually kept inside, often mixed no registration. basically what you see with a lot of hunting dog, farm dogs, teens who wanna see puppies, etc to round it up these people basically have unfixed dogs that they dont care to separate. 

puppy mill=BIG SCALE, breeds for money, don't care about any of their dogs, inbreeds, kept in nasty cages, no health tests, purebred but really bad quality, no registration, kept outside or in garage type building, breeds females to the DEATH. Usually these people are breeding for pet stores. to round it up these people are basically breeding constantly as soon as a female can get pregnant she WILL be pregnant.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I actually categorize anyone who is not a professional breeder, a BYB. Now, for clarification -- someone who decides to find a male to mate with their female, and then sell the puppies is a BYB. People who happen to love a breed but decide not to spay or neuter the animal but instead breed them, that's a BYB (to me). There are many people just like those that I described that are not puppy mills, but if you are breeding dogs just because you can to make money, then I'd say they fall into that category. 

When I was very little my grandmother had toy poodles and she mated her female with a poodle down the block and kept a few pups -- we actually got one of them from her and I recall it was heartbreaking since Martini (Marty) a toy, developed hip dysplasia at a very young age. I don't think back then anyone ever thought it was from lack of health testing though.....even though she was my grandmother, I would say that's BYB.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

seems to me what characterizes a byb is ignorance, relatively small scale, and no commitment to the betterment of the breed. whether for profit or out of sentiment (puppies are sooo cute! we want our kids to be able to watch puppies being born and to know what it's like to raise them) or both, there is general unawareness of health issues and testing and therefore no thought to the future of the breed. often bybs cross breed for "cuteness". so we get maltipoos, cockapoos, chihuahua/fox terrier mixes, etc.

puppy millers i think of as large commercial operations that are actually licensed as such. sometimes dogs are kept in very bad conditions, sometimes not, but because of the money involved, i think many puppy millers breed dogs that can be registered with the akc. i also believe most are fully aware of the health testing undertaken by good breeders, but they are breeding strictly for profit, so they are not going to "waste" money on testing. they are a factory operation and the bottom line is that their dogs are valuable to them as producers of profit, not as pets or individuals.

clearly there's crossover - as in when a byb operation becomes so large that under the law it should be commercially licensed - or when a puppy miller decides there's profit in crossbreeding. but at the extremes i think the distinctions between the two are discernible.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This is an interesting question and a very thoughtful discussion. Here I will throw another scenario into the mix. Someone I know is considering getting a puppy from someone who is breeding flat coated retrievers (FCR) to either cocker or springer spaniels. From their website I see that they are claiming to do this to bring genetic diversity into FCRs to try to fix some of the (as I understand it considerable) health problems in this breed. At the same time they also seem to claim that they have "created a new dog breed" by doing this. So which is it, improvement of FCR or yet another "designer dog" mess. Their dogs (that they claim to treasure as family all seem to live a large "dog barn" and include other breeds as well. Backyard breeder or puppy mill in the making?


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Talking about new dog breeds......have you heard of the Mi-Ki a so called 'new breed' trying to gain recognition ...They even have breed standards and shows and clubs!!! 
Cute dogs but in my mind still started by a BYBer!!!!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

MollyMuiMa said:


> Talking about new dog breeds......have you heard of the Mi-Ki a so called 'new breed' trying to gain recognition ...They even have breed standards and shows and clubs!!!
> Cute dogs but in my mind still started by a BYBer!!!!


i have seen them advertised. they look like a mishmash of every toy dog available. sad.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

I just did a search on the Mi-Ki - and yes it is a mish mash of different breeds. I was thinking Papillon, Yorkie, ****zu, those in the Mi-ki circle are sayining, Papillon, Maltese, ****zu, and Japanese Chin.

I'll stick with my poodle - thank you very much! Even though she was from a byb, my neighbor.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

well to be fair, some of the "professional" breeders have also done their share with regard to harming various breeds. google "wycliffe influence" in standard poodles for an example. and it can still happen, because no one has complete knowledge of flaws, defects, diseases, etc. some issues that are not clearly identified as genetic now may well be in the future. worse, science may determine that a desirable trait is tied to something undesirable. there are no guarantees, just best efforts, and there are also no guarantees that a dog with byb or puppy mill origins is a born loser.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

That is so true about the byb or mill puppies being born losers!! The are several instances recently here on PF about health issues with poodles from good breeders. Hope, pray and cross your fingers the dog you have will be healthy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

patk said:


> well to be fair, some of the "professional" breeders have also done their share with regard to harming various breeds. google "wycliffe influence" in standard poodles for an example. and it can still happen, because no one has complete knowledge of flaws, defects, diseases, etc. some issues that are not clearly identified as genetic now may well be in the future. worse, science may determine that a desirable trait is tied to something undesirable. there are no guarantees, just best efforts, and there are also no guarantees that a dog with byb or puppy mill origins is a born loser.


patk, you are right that professional and knowledgable hobby breeders can also make mistakes and do damage to a breed, but we can all hope that they do their research and as new information and testing becomes available that they will work off that information. I doubt one would expect or get that from a back yard breeder.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i agree. and i would not buy from a byb. but you may have noticed in another thread the refusal of breeders at pf to consider giving lifetime guarantees on their dogs. (as i said, roaming the internet, i have found only one breeder who seems to be quite reputable and offers such a guarantee, and of course i assume it applies to diseases for which testing is available.) there also appear to be any number of members at pf with dogs that came from bybs, though many are reticent about saying so because it's not really pc. it doesn't appear to me to be the case that there are many more noticeable problems with those dogs as compared to the ones from the best breeders. i know this is a kind of heresy, but look at the discussions on insurance and you will find dogs from acclaimed breeders with expensive health problems and dogs from obscure or maybe backyard breeders with the same. for the sake of the breed, one hopes the reputable breeders gain ground, but even then, there is the great unknown to contend with.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well now we are circling back towards the OP question about definitions. The line between backyard breeder and novice hobby breeder is probably pretty blurry. I think of Lily's breeder as a novice hobby breeder since they had mentoring and the husband came from a family that had bred minis or toys (I forget which) when he was young. They have two bitches, but one of them had faults that made them decide to spay her (a true byb probably would have gone ahead and bred her). When Lily's mom was finished, they decided not to continue (they have two youngish children). I am sure there are some others who would consider them byb since they haven't gone on with their program.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sometimes it is indeed good not to be too doctrinaire.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

It is often said that a guarantee is only as good as the paper it is written on, I would think that a BYB would not even consider giving a guarantee or give one so outlandish that they would never be able to uphold it. Someone can give a "life time" guarantee but who is to say that a breeder will be around or even alive to be able to uphold that. The average time a person continues to breed dogs is five years. Breeding dogs, and especially a breed a difficult as poodles (standards) takes a huge amount of fortitude and dedication, and sometimes I think one or two loose screws :aetsch: 
Many on this forum may have bought from a BYB before they were educated, some have become educated because of their terrible experience. Most of the time, you get what you pay for, sadly sometimes you are only paying for a name. Do your research, know which health test are appropriate for the variety you choose, don't just know the name of the test but what it is for, how it is done and what the results mean. Check out the OFA and PCA website. Research a breeders reputation, not just their wins, but how they are seen in the breeder community. Don't ignore the red flags or your gut reactions, you will never regret doing so. And remember the Chinese proverb "Buy the best you will only cry once" that few extra hundred you spend will pay you back over and over, but also remember high price does not always mean high quality, can't say it enough, research, research, research.


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

When I met the couple who bred their dogs for Luces litter, I wasn't even looking for a dog! My bird had just died a few weeks earlier and was going to get another in a few months. After talking with Glenn about it, and deciding to get a puppy/dog, I started to have second thoughts about getting Luce because she was a puppy and not sure if I had the time to devote to her, I had my doubts I would get the help from him since he is disabled and has a chronic pain condition.

So I went on Petfinder, and looked on Craigslist and called local shelters. I was fairly specific in what I wanted - a poodle, tpoo or mpoo - that's it. The rescues wanted a crazy long application and their nose up my personal business and in my home. Craigslist people never responded to my inquiries and the shelters didn't have anything at the time. I had a limited amount of funds for the actual puppy/dog since I would also have to buy lots of other things including vet. 

When I saw the prices of puppy poodle MIXES on Craigslist I was shocked!!! And the price of AKC registered!!! There is no way I could spend that kind of money on a pet!!! My neighbor gave me a price of $100.00!! I met the male and female, loved them! Very friendly and well behaved even when excited, and it seemed like they understood the sentences that were spoken to them!!

I understand that "professional breeders" spend a lot of money on health testing and dog shows. So of course they need to recoup that money when they sell the puppies. The sad thing about that is it makes it impossible for someone like me to get a "quality dog from a reputable breeder". The money just isn't there for to spend on something like that. I am not a clothes horse, shoe addict or purse hound, and I drive a car that is a 96. Haven't been on a vacation since Reagan or first Bush was in office :0. I am just a woman trying to scratch out a living, hoping to be able to not work at what I have been for the rest of my life,very labor intensive. 

After saying all of that, I want a pet! A bird or a dog. So I went with the neighbor the BYB because the price was right!! Is it a struggle sometimes with money?? Yes it is. But, I made this commitment to Luce to raise her, keep her safe, and healthy. I too 3 training classes with her, bring her everywhere they will let her in, buy good quality food plus extras. She has toys, bones and vet care. 

I signed up for insurance because I have a feeling there maybe a problem with her hips. I just don't have a few thousand dollars at my disposal if she needs surgery, but I do have the $30 a month for insurance. Before I bought the insurance (she does not have a diagnosis at this time), I was telling Glenn if we don't get the insurance and she does need surgery we will probably have to give her up to a poodle rescue! He looked shocked and sad and said "Give her up???!!!" I said yes, if we don't have the money for the surgery I can't put her down for that, so we would have to sign her over to a rescue hoping that someone would adopt her and get the care she needs.

I couldn't do that to her, him or me!! I made a commitment and I LOVE this little dog, I am not giving her up to anyone! I have spent to much time, money and emotional attachment to let her go over $30 and month for insurance.

I think this makes sense, it's pretty late and I'm getting tired.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

luce, i hope you don't think anyone looks down on you or your dog. there's the ideal world and there's what people have to deal with on an individual basis. people articulate the ideal but really very few dismiss reality. enjoy your dog, love her, care for her. before we talk about getting a "good" dog, we need to remember that it's important to be decent human beings - to our dogs and to each other. most at pf try to do that, and i think you have come to the right place.


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## Jacknic (Sep 14, 2010)

Luce, I am in no way trying to put you down for your decision, I understand completely. I have told several people that have called, "money is always a problem and never a problem," meaning I too always feel broke and anything to do with money can be worked out. So I am saying this for others, since you have already made your choice, but with this warning; what if it is something that can not be fixed with surgery, such as DM -- Degenerative Myelopathy? This is a disease that effects poodles, the cost for the test is $65 and it is a DNA test, so either a dog has it, is effected or is clear. What if you wake up tomorrow and you puppy appears odd, you later find out your sweet pup has cataracts to later become blind -- the price to have a dogs eyes CERF is $30-45. The price for cataract surgery could hit $3000 and over. My point is that a responsible breeder would take the money they receive from their pups and put it back into their dogs, health testing the next generation, spend their own money to show their dogs and have them health tested before breeding, so yes some would like to recoup that money, but also they are offering a high quality product, so to speak. But doing a little more research and making contacts you can often find retired dogs (show/breeding) for a much reduced price or find a breeder you can work with and maybe foster a dog or be a guardian home. I place my females once they are done breeding for $500 which includes the dog being spayed, I have standards so you can see what a great offer that would be, the girls are not old, are completely health tested, plus spayed.... Again Luce I am not saying this for you, but for others that are reading this, IMO it is better to wait a little while and save up your money then to pay the price with heartache and tears. Again I have to say research, research, research....


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## Luce (Mar 4, 2013)

Jacknic, I know there are responsible breeders out there, and the responsible breeder of today is a bit different then the responsible breeder in the past. Unfortunately, in the last year or so as I have looked in to the poodle breed and history, IMHO, a lot of the health issues with dogs has been caused by club politics, greed, and a number of any other human desires. 

For instance, most of us on the pf acknowledge that parti colored poodles date back hundreds of years from the paintings they were depicted in were painted hundreds of years ago. The AKC sees the parti poodle as a fault! Why? I speculate the reason is when the club started or first recognized poodles as a pure breed, there were not many solids - so they were more desireable and expensive so only the more elite could afford one. To keep the status of the purebred poodle, someone made the decision that only solids were recognized and accepted. Do people think that all of a sudden no party colored poodles were born?? Of course not!! The parti pups were "culled" from the litter because they had an obvious fault - multi colored. Were these breeders considered horrible people? No, they were breeding for the betterment of the poodle breed so the practice was accepted.

Today, the same breeder would be brought up on charges of animal cruelty, and whatever else the authorities could slap them with. I don't know when parti poodles started showing up again in numbers, when I was a kid we had 3 poodles from about 1968-1990 or so, 1 cream/champagne, silver and black. Now, there are breeders for parti poodles! Genetics is not black and white - far from it! a trait could be tied to a color, shape, or whatever, sometimes mutations just happen.

Luce is not below anyone's standards whom I care about! She is social, confident, playful and truly is a bright light in my life! Will she ever compete in AKC conformation? NO!!!! She has a natural tail and I am crazy about it! The way it curls over her back and when she wags it - pure joy to watch her. I take her out with me to Lowes, the bank, Home Depot, the garden center and the pet stores. Everyone loves her, she loves everyone, she is a joy to be around. I am so lucky to have a pup that is perfect for me.

You ask about diseases?? You're right, she may come down with DM -- Degenerative Myelopathy, when she is about 7 or older. She may get cataracts, our first family poodle was blind by the time he was 6 or so and also went deaf. He was with us till he was about 14 or so. Anyone of us could become afflicted with any of hundreds of diseases out of the blue. It's what we do after it happens that also counts. If Luce becomes sick with something I will cross that bridge when it comes - I signed her up for insurance 2 weeks ago. I plan on taking her in to the vet this week to have her patellas and cruciates(sp?) certified since the vet said about 6 weeks ago they were fine.

As I have mentioned in other posts, it was a quick decision when we got her. My cockatiel died, 3 weeks later I met Luce at 5 weeks old and that was it! I thought about doing a rescue, or a real re-home from craigslis - and adult. The craigslist posters never responded and the rescues were a bit over the top for what personal information they wanted. They seemed like they really didn't want the dogs to be adopted because they wanted to know everything you were going to do with the dog! It almost seems easier to adopt or foster a human child then it is to adopt or foster a dog!!! 

The young couple I got Luce from were easy to deal with, they let me puppy sit her for the day twice - try before you buy! I thought that was a great idea, and she agreed to keep them for 8 weeks till they were naturally weaned, I even saw her put the puppies up to the mom for feeding because she felt the mom wasn't feeding enough. If I wasn't outside at the moment she was driving by looking for her male, I would never have known they were next door from me with a litter of mpoos! 

Normally I would have researched it more to find out other ways of acquiring a poodle, quite frankly, it never occurred to me. I think it is great that breeders adopt out those who are no longer able to breed, maybe my next poodle will be from someone like you! So much better then going to Petland and paying $1200-$2500 for a mutt! 

Luce looks like a purebred to me, her parents also. If someone says she is not then that is fine also, I love this dog as if I birthed her myself! LOL


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

This is a very interesting discussion. I've learned about a new designer dog, the Wycliffe effect, and had a good hard think about the Scottie's in my past and their provenance. Suffice it to say that I got VERY lucky with those dear souls. Honestly, all I thought about was were they AKC and could they be returned if they didn't pass muster with my vet? I easily spent the price of a show quality Scottie on allergy treatments with my last dog. 13 years ago, the Internet was in it's infancy and it was harder to find out everything. Easier to respond to an ad in the paper than to make (long distance!) calls to the breed clubs or find Dog Fancier at the local library and hope for a breeder in your state. And I certainly fell for the newspaper dog price and of course that puppy charm... Fast forward to now, embarking on a brand new breed, Internet at my fingertips, no way was I going to take a chance as in the past. It is a service to all prospective poodle owners when PF members advise them to save a bit more, do the research, take a hard hearted friend along to view puppies... Once you've got your poodle, wherever you got it, I'm still going to admire it and wish you the best. It could be the California Chrome poodle, after all.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I made a rather snap decision purchasing Raven. I was trying to adopt through English Springer rescue. I had wanted a poodle or a springer but could not find anything even remotely on my price range. I thought $350 for the rescue was a lot when I could go to a shelter and adopt for $50 but I know all the vet care is expensive. However, the rescue people were so bossy and nosy it was insane. They kept trying to place a 7-8 year old dog even though I was VERY specific about wanting a younger one. They kept saying but springers are very active at 7, but I had just gone through several years of constant care of elderly collies and I was not ready to get back to that soon. It had nothing to do with activity but with longevity! Btw I haver heard from them even though I never told them I had another dog.

I saw Raven on Puppyfinder and she was only an hour away so I called and went to see her. She was the last puppy of the litter and a lot more than I planned to pay but about half what I had seen them for in other places. It turns out the breeder seems pretty reputable as I have met other folks with her dogs since getting Raven but I didn't know it at the time. I am thankful I found her and that she seems healthy now, but I just would have to have a shelter mutt before I could pay $1200-1400 for a dog. That is not likely ever to be in the budget.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I was rereading some of these threads and wanted to also mention that once you have had a dog from a reputable professional breeder AND from either a BYB or other source, it's very obvious to me the difference. I am not saying there is a difference in how attached you become or how they become a part of the family, and can even be your heart dog (my Jake was that), but Sunny is my first poodle (have had them for 30 years) from a reputable breeder who breeds to the breed standard, health tests, breeds for temperament, etc., and I do see the difference every day. Knowing what I know now, I would find it hard to purchase from anyone other than a reputable breeder. 

I am not knocking rescues, etc., but that was not the topic of the thread. I do believe "the proof is in the pudding". I also believe that every dog I have had I have loved equally -- just adding to the "difference".


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