# rant about vet students



## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

I'm taking Sprout to basic obedience (he already passed puppy class) on Saturdays.

Anyway, we're learning how to heal - which is great. Sprout already knows sit and stay and he learned heal in the first 10 minutes. The class is 1.5 hours and there are three other dogs in the class.

One of the dogs is a beagle-bloodhound mix. She is very sweet. However, Sprout also thinks she is sweet and all he wants to do is hump her! He was great for the first 20 minutes or so, healing ect. Then he got bored of his treats (freeze dried liver) and could only focus on getting to the other dog. It was ridiculous and I was embarrassed. He would be in the other corner of the room looking at her and his hips would be girating in her direction... it was insane.

It was also weird because he was neutered 1 week and 2 days before the class. I found out that the dog's owners were vet students so I asked them if he was like this because the male hormones hadn't left his body yet from the surgery.

Well... they proceeded to tell me that i got him neutered WAY to late, that six months is the cut off (!), and that now there is nothing I can do. Seriously? Sprout was neutered at exactly 8 months, which I actually worry was too early.

They wouldn't stop chastizing me about it. Was he lifting his leg to pee? Yes. Well, they said, its too late to change that behaviour. Seriously? Why would I care if my dog lifts his leg to pee unless he is peeing on my furniture? 

I explained to them that I wanted to wait until 10 months to be sure that his growth plates had fused, and that I was told by my vet and breeder to wait until at least 7 months. They thought this was crazy and that six months is the absolute longest you should wait to neuter a dog. What are they teaching these vet students?

I wish I could convey how absolutely condescending they were in their tone. It was awful. All I could do was apologize. The trainer kept telling me not to apologize because its natural. The beagle didn't seem to care in the least. In any case, I can't imagine how these two will be if they ever have children.

On a side note, Sprout only seems interested in humping beagles.... weird?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

My sympathies, hon...

There are millions of opinionated idiots in the world. Some of them have dogs.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" - they will learn both better science and better manners eventually.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow, terribly sorry they were so rude!! Don't worry, chances are Sprout WILL grow out of humping, especially if you show him that you aren't happy with that behavior. Heck, I even taught my unneutered Lhasa not to hump...he was about 6 mo when he started doing it to the kids, and every time we would nicely correct him (usually just tell him "no" and pull him off) and get him interested in something else. In a couple of months, he had quit and he hasn't humped anyone since. He was almost 2 when he was neutered, and we definitely noticed changes in his behavior, although it did take a few months to get all the hormones out of his system. You can't even tell he was neutered later in life now.  I wish I had waited until Trev was a little older, as I've been reading some of the benefits to waiting. Live and learn.  At least I didn't have to deal with humping!!


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

How rude! But they were right and wrong.. if the dog is snipped before his hormones get going and male behavior hasnt surfaced, then they only humping he should be doing is for dominance. Well at least that is how it was explained to me.. You wont have to worry about all those male behaviors.. But I do believe you can decrease the behavior with training.. not that I know which training or trainer would be most effective. Good luck!


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry they were so rude to you and that I know how you feel about the humping. Last week we took Casper to my son's BB practice and another family was there with their pomeranian and Casper would not leave her alone. Every time he tried to mount her, she would give him a quick growl and let him know she didn't like it. By the end of practice, he started licking her face. I was so embarrased and kept apologizing and kept trying to make him stop. He goes in on Friday for his neuter and he will be 9 months old next week.


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## Ladywolfe (Jan 11, 2012)

We have a poodle-mix rescue that was neutered very young, before 3 months of age. He has a "foot fettish". Yep, he likes human feet. We are getting it under control now. But, from his behavior, you would never know he is neutered. I mean, obviously, you can see he is, but even though done very young, lifts his leg, loves to mark, loves to dominate other dogs...................and, yeah, the foot fettish thing.

Those vet students have a l-o-t to learn. If a vet treated clients that way, they wouldn't be making much $$$$.

I am sorry you experienced this. This class should be fun for everyone, humans and dogs alike. Shame on them, and I don't think you owed an apology, either. But, they might have.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, they are right in that you do have to neuter early - before any hormone related behaviors emerge - for neutering to stop the behavior. 

That said, I still think the benefits of waiting to alter a dog until they are mature far outweighs the fact that hormonal behaviors might become permanent habit. I have a 15 month old intact male who has no undesirable hormone related behaviors.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm going to throw a little different spin on the matter here. 

First of all, humping isn't necessarily a "male" behavior. I have seen plenty of females (including ones who were spayed early) that hump. I have seen plenty of males who were neutered early hump. I have seen plenty of un-neutered males that don't hump. 

Second, I agree with Millie in that the benefits of waiting far outweigh the risk of developing some hormone-related behavior that can be fixed. 

Third, behaviors are just that. They are behaviors, which means they can be changed and shaped. Talk to your instructor or find yourself a good private trainer who can help you work through this issue. 

Fourth, humping isn't about sex. It's sometimes about dominance and can even sometimes be used as a very effective energy burner (so it is seen more often if your dog is under exercised). That said, un-neutered males _do tend_ to be on the more socially dominant end of the scale than their neutered counterparts. And it can take 30 days or so for all of those hormones to leave the system after neutering happens. 

So, the point of all my rambling is that you are worrying yourself over this way too much. As far as vet students... you would be surprised at what they teach and what they don't teach in vet school. I have several very close acquaintances in vet school right now and you wouldn't believe some of the stuff they are taught. Take it with a grain of salt, and stop beating yourself up.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

One thing to consider is that in vet school, they are learning highly technical information. The ability to take that information and translate it into language most people understand is difficult for some people to develop. It is much easier to choose an arbitrary or industry standard and stick with it.

My fiance is a vet, owns a vet clinic. I write the articles on the website. We started into the age to spay/neuter discussion and after a while, he was like "just write the article recommending spay/neuter at 6 months." Because it is really so complicated. Sometimes he'll actually explain something - like we were talking about puppy vaccine schedules over supper tonight. I get why vets don't try to explain it. I went to college for pre-vet and I've read a good portion of his veterinary immunology textbook, and I was still confused for a while.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> One thing to consider is that in vet school, they are learning highly technical information. The ability to take that information and translate it into language most people understand is difficult for some people to develop. It is much easier to choose an arbitrary or industry standard and stick with it.
> 
> My fiance is a vet, owns a vet clinic. I write the articles on the website. We started into the age to spay/neuter discussion and after a while, he was like "just write the article recommending spay/neuter at 6 months." Because it is really so complicated. Sometimes he'll actually explain something - like we were talking about puppy vaccine schedules over supper tonight. I get why vets don't try to explain it. I went to college for pre-vet and I've read a good portion of his veterinary immunology textbook, and I was still confused for a while.


This is *exactly* what is so concerning to me about many vets. This is why I left my vet and went to a holistic vet who was happy to explain fully rather that simply recommend the "industry standard.". This is exactly why we have to be advocates for our pets and protect them from vets who adapt such "industry standard" protocols rather than provide the care that is in the best interest of our pets.


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## DivinityPoodles (Jan 23, 2012)

:rofl:

Cale is a year old... when we were in puppy class he was hitting the 6 month range and the instructor told all of us (several males at that age) that there are more hormones running around in their systems than we could imagine. I have to say that Cale is not neutered and will only attempt to hump 1 of his beds... I really don't know what is with that particular bed but am glad that the issue is relatively confined to it. He tried a couple of dominance humps and got tossed off with a very big frown and "NO" and we haven't had a problem since. 

These two were very rude to you for no good reason. Some people have no manners and I'm sorry you are so upset about it, you didn't do anything wrong and your boy will improve with training.

Good luck!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> This is *exactly* what is so concerning to me about many vets. This is why I left my vet and went to a holistic vet who was happy to explain fully rather that simply recommend the "industry standard.". This is exactly why we have to be advocates for our pets and protect them from vets who adapt such "industry standard" protocols rather than provide the care that is in the best interest of our pets.


And that is why I am a PITA and keep asking questions until I get a real answer.


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Sookster said:


> I'm going to throw a little different spin on the matter here.
> 
> First of all, humping isn't necessarily a "male" behavior. I have seen plenty of females (including ones who were spayed early) that hump. I have seen plenty of males who were neutered early hump. I have seen plenty of un-neutered males that don't hump.
> 
> ...


Have to agree with all of this. 

Additionally, when I got Kohl at 9wks., he humped _everything_ in sight _all_ the time. Me, his bed, the wall, his toys, heck, he'd just be standing there with nothing and start humping the air. I even caught him doing it while lying on his side and falling asleep. It seemed to be an excitement and self-reassurance thing for him. Obviously it had nothing to do with hormones at that age. Still, I wasn't going to let him get in the habit so I'd just give him a firm poke and a 'nope' to distract him. Took him a couple of days, but he stopped and hasn't done it since. Now I'm waiting for the hormones to start things up again


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

stealthq said:


> Have to agree with all of this.
> 
> Additionally, when I got Kohl at 9wks., he humped _everything_ in sight _all_ the time. Me, his bed, the wall, his toys, heck, he'd just be standing there with nothing and start humping the air. I even caught him doing it while lying on his side and falling asleep. It seemed to be an excitement and self-reassurance thing for him. Obviously it had nothing to do with hormones at that age. Still, I wasn't going to let him get in the habit so I'd just give him a firm poke and a 'nope' to distract him. Took him a couple of days, but he stopped and hasn't done it since. Now I'm waiting for the hormones to start things up again


YES! News flash: Puppies hump. They do it for a million reasons, and it's very rarely about dominance or sex. Boy puppies do it, girl puppies do it. 
With my male (who was neutered at 8/9 months), he did it out of excitement. If he was playing (with me, a toy, another dog, whatever) and he started getting really excited, he would just hump. Neutered or not (and regardless of the age they were neutered), young puppies hump other puppies and adult dogs. Eventually, they grow out of it. They are corrected by enough adult dogs, they learn that you don't want them to do it to you, and they just grow up.

I don't know why people get so worked up about such a normal, silly puppy behavior. Those vet students must not have been around many puppies in their lifetime if this is what they believe! They will learn eventually. (Maybe they haven't covered this subject yet in school!)


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Sookster said:


> I'm going to throw a little different spin on the matter here.
> 
> First of all, humping isn't necessarily a "male" behavior. I have seen plenty of females (including ones who were spayed early) that hump.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

I meant to write a reply to everyone earlier to say thanks for taking the time to write about your (often hilarious) experiences and to reassure me that I made the right decision about neutering.

We had another training session on Saturday and Sprout was very well behaved. No humping this time! 
Sookster, you might be right in that he could have been humping to burn off extra energy. We couldn't exercise him all week due to the surgery..

On a side note: he was the only one to learn the new behaviour this week (sit-stay as I walk around him). Its so great having a poodle .

Thanks again!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

My spayed female who is now 13years of age humps the other small dogs in our house. She is blind, has heart issues, kidney issues yet if my 11 yo neutered male is humping her she in turns humps him. My Spoo that I adopted is an older male anywhere from 3-6 when he was neutered & not 1 undesirable male behavior. I groom plenty of teenage intact males with NO undesirable behaviors. So, there is a geed deal of mis information out there.


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