# Vegetarian puppy food! any suggestions?



## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Dr Karen Becker explains the dangers of feeding carnivorous pets vegetarian or vegan diets perfectly. I highly urge you not to feed your new pup vegetarian and to watch her wonderfully done videos. She herself is vegetarian yet understands the importance of not forcing her lifestyle on that of her carnivorous pets and feeds them a well balanced raw meat diet. 

http://youtu.be/xlN7LDMTjn0

http://youtu.be/I33eSG731g4


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

There are vegetarian dog foods, although I don't know any that have been highly rated. It would be extremely difficult to provide for all of a dog's nutritional needs with a home cooked vegetarian diet - dogs are less efficient at digesting grain and plant carbohydrates and proteins than we humans, and need protein from animal sources. They also need the right balance of calcium and phosphorus, and have very different nutritional requirements than humans. I think that you would do much better to choose a high quality commercial food and stick to that.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Dogs and cats were never and are not Vegetarian. It is theoretically possible to formulate a vegetarian food for dogs. That I know of it has never been successfully done. If you can not bear to feed raw red meats. Then you must at least feed a balanced total needs dog food in Kibble form. Eggs are good for dogs. Feed with the shell. Wash well first. Dairy foods are OK in moderation. Too much saturated fats will cause pancreatitis. Poodles like spicy foods. But too much of many spices will cause scouring. Do talk to your vet. I have personally known 3 dogs of vegetarians who were most unhealthy and subsequently died. It is hard enough to maintain a vegetarian diet and remain healthy for a human. It is many times more difficult for a Dog.
Eric


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

I am a vegetarian myself, but have chosen not to impose my dietary choices onto my dog because they would be inappropriate and unhealthy for her, especially as a fast-growing and developing puppy! Instead, I try to support small businesses and companies that are sustainably and humanely harvesting the animal protein ingredients that Ari needs to grow healthy and strong.

Ari eats Acana kibble because I have zero interest in feeding raw; it's much harder for me to find ingredients for a homemade diet in my region than to buy a preformulated one. Acana is not vegetarian, but the meats in the food come from small farms and local fisheries near the factory, which is located in Alberta, Canada. This page talks about their ingredients. The ingredients are considered human-grade.

There are probably other kibbles that ethically source their ingredients, so you could do some research. Acana works well for Ari so I've luckily not had to keep looking. We rotate through each of the "Regionals" bags, so she eats 5 lb of Pacifica, 5 lb of Grasslands etc.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh no...a vegetarian a dog is not. Just think...wild dogs, domestic dogs for thousands of years NEVER ate a vegetarian diet...no one ever saw them, no lithographs were ever made by earlier man that showed dog or dog-like animals grazing or browsing like a herbivore. No, they are predators and chase down, kill and eat animals. They will eat some vegetables but that's more behavioral. They are primarily meat eaters and they need lots of it. Humans are omnivores. Dogs are carnivores with omnivore behavior at times. I hope you read and learn more about dogs and understand they're not like humans, not only physiologically, but the way they think and learn is not identical to humans either, save for some basic behavior concepts that are universal. We must never impose our human way of eating or our value and moral system onto dogs and remember that dogs are animals, not human...which I think humans forget sometimes or put in the background because of the phenomenal relationship we have with domestic dogs. 

This is a place where you can learn a lot and also browse around the Internet to see what's best for a dog in the way of food, training and housing and all kinds of things. So happy you're here with us and very excited for you that you're getting prepared for a new puppy.


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## Achala (Oct 6, 2015)

*Won't impose vegetarianism!*

Poodle folks,

Thanks for responding. I won't impose _vegetarianism_ on my pup! I won't jeopardize her health and well being at any cost. While researching puppy food, I came across many vegetarian and vegan products and I wanted to see what others thought about it. I understand that it may not be the best choice for dogs who are carnivorous by nature.I'll browse through this forum, talk to the vet and go with the recommendations accordingly.Raw meat is out of the question, though :ahhhhh:

Thanks,
Achala


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I'm a vegetarian, and I just make sure to feed my dog foods that come from ethically raised meat sources. Orijen and Acana are two very high-quality kibble brands (both from Champion Pet Foods) that use local, pasture-raised meats. If you can't afford or find a brand that you're sure uses ethical meat sources, you're better off with at least feeding lamb formulas - lamb pretty much has to be pasture-raised or the meat doesn't turn out right, so you're more likely to get meat that hasn't been exposed to feed lots or other inhumane conditions. New Zealand Lamb is particularly good in this regard.

I found this website you can look at as well, though I'm not personally familiar with any of the brands listed: Ethical Cat and Dog Food


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

Here's a site that is very informative. I think it's top drawer.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Dogs are carnivores and NEED meat. A vegetarian diet would be dangerous and unhealthy.


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## Achala (Oct 6, 2015)

*@ericwd9*



ericwd9 said:


> It is hard enough to maintain a vegetarian diet and remain healthy for a human.
> Eric


Eric,
I definitely can't handle raw meat and kibble form sounds good. Thanks for other suggestions too. I am learning a lot! I agree with you that dogs may not get their nutritional needs with vegetarian food. I won't do it  
I beg to disagree with your statement about human vegetarian diet though! Vegetarians are at a lower risk of developing Heart diseases, Colo-rectal, ovarian,breast cancers, diabetes,hypertension and obesity compared to our carnivorous counterparts :aetsch:

Thanks,
Achala


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Well, it takes a lot of effort for a human to be a vegetarian, especially if you're a woman (you probably need iron supplements). Humans did evolve from meat-eating ancestors.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Achala said:


> Eric,
> I definitely can't handle raw meat and kibble form sounds good. Thanks for other suggestions too. I am learning a lot! I agree with you that dogs may not get their nutritional needs with vegetarian food. I won't do it
> I beg to disagree with your statement about human vegetarian diet though! *Vegetarians are at a lower risk of developing Heart diseases, Colo-rectal, ovarian,breast cancers, diabetes,hypertension and obesity compared to our carnivorous counterparts :aetsch:*
> 
> ...


I don't know for a fact one way or the other. But I do believe in what this guy says and I think an awful lot of "science" is flawed...not all, but a lot. So one has to be careful.

Don't miss this video. http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/177905-science-smart-people.html


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

zooeysmom said:


> Well, it takes a lot of effort for a human to be a vegetarian, especially if you're a woman (you probably need iron supplements). Humans did evolve from meat-eating ancestors.


Lots of people, especially women, need iron supplements even if they are not vegetarian. I have never needed iron or vitamin D supplements. I think it is more an individual thing than a diet-based one. If you don't absorb nutrients from your food well, then you might need supplements.

Vegetarianism/veganism are often an excuse for eating a poor diet, but if you are careful you can get as much or more out of your food as a vegetarian. Partly because it forces you to think about what you are eating more than most people.

There is no inherent dietary reason that people should or should not eat meat. There is strong, well-controlled scientific evidence that eating less red meat does lower your risk of certain health problems, as Achala said. As in any diet, you've got to be paying attention and moderation is key.

Personally, I choose to be a vegetarian because of the unacceptable impact a diet heavy on industrialized meats has on our climate. I don't categorically refuse all meat so much as try to only consume meat that has been produced ethically.

I think that the time is drawing nearer that all of us will have to step back and think about the choices we make in our daily lives, and the ways that those choices will impact future generations. No, I do not think that we all have to become vegetarians. Do you know how much water goes into making one hamburger, and how much plant protein that same amount of water could have produced? *Answer:* 660 gal water for a 0.3 lb burger vs. 216 gal for a pound of soybeans which comes out to about 0.6 lb of plant protein. In this case, you are getting about 6x the "bang per gallon" in protein with a soybean crop vs. meat. (Source) Something to think about in terms of efficiency.

_Neither_ humans nor dogs are obligate carnivores, we are both somewhere between omnivores and "preferential carnivores" meaning that we can be nourished by plant-based food but prefer meat. Trying to eat like our "ancestors" makes no logical sense, especially because we only have the foggiest idea of what our ancestors actually ate! The little we do know indicates that early humans ate an opportunistic mix of foods of plant and animal origins (Source). Don't even get me started on the "paleo" diet! Again not that it does not work (and I believe that eliminating highly processed foods like Cheetos etc from our diet is a good idea) but the Paleo diet is no more a representation of what early humans ate than any other modern diet.

Cats _are_ obligate carnivores because taurine is an essential amino acid for them, and taurine is only found in animal proteins.

More on topic, there isn't a real reason that a dog _could not_ eat a vegetarian diet, scientifically speaking, as long as 'vegetarian' is defined as not containing ingredients directly derived from living animal sources. But there are not any good, balanced kibbles available _today_ that don't use animal ingredients.

It is possible to synthesize a lot of nutrients and even amino acids. Even cats could someday eat animal-free diets. Synthesized diets raise both meat-eating and vegetarian humans' hackles, because of our aversion to anything artificial, so that day may be a while off. But the cynic in me says, hey, might as well test these things (i.e. synthetic nutrients) on our pets before we consume them ourselves! :aetsch:

To sum up, I don't think that it's as simple as saying that "a lot of science is flawed" or that vegetarians need iron supplements. The more we learn, the more questions we have. Any time that we can see that a scientific study is flawed is a victory and not a failure because that is the way science works-- we move forward by recognizing the mistakes of the past. I say "Live and let live as much as possible," but I have plenty of friends that I respect immensely and who go out and kill animals for sport and/or nourishment. In the scheme of things, everyone is a little bit right and a little bit wrong in their opinions on food and diet, because the decisions we make are intensely personal.

eace:


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Achala, I'm glad you have decided to go with a good quality kibble for your new puppy. You will probably need to continue with the kibble your breeder has started her(?) on, and then gradually introduce whatever kibble you propose to use. A rapid transition will cause intestinal issues - no fun for puppy or the family trying to housebreak her. My SPOO, Buck, enjoys cucumbers, melons, apples and green peppers as treats. Especially, if we're eating them


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Glad that you decided against feeding a vegetarian diet to your dog.
Just wanted to add that if you have any doubts just take a look in their mouth - it is plain to see that those teeth were made for tearing meat and grinding bone, no doubt about it!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Good post Sophie Ann, even if I don't agree with each item. As far as science being flawed, did you look at this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RXvBveht0&list=UUo79qbil7BXihBa6jfDykxQ&index=2&feature=plcp 

The proof that red meat causes all kinds of ailments is very possibly not proof at all, possibly all correlative. I know plenty of healthy people who eat red meat. My ancestors ate red meat and lived well into their 90's. A lot of science is very flawed. If you watch that video, you'll see why I think that and so many studies I've read myself are poorly done. So, things should be taken with a grain of salt, I guess is what I'm saying.

As far as that environmental stuff, I think it's great to be responsible. But to not feed our dogs meat, I think is going too far. I just had the best rib eye steak the other night when we went out for dinner. There's no way I'm going to save the environment if I can not have a rib eye steak like that one once in a while. 

Just because dogs aren't _obligate_ carnivores, they are still carnivores in how their digestive systems, teeth, jaws, predatory behavior/motor patterns work. They will eat vegetables, they like some of them...and fruits and grains and can digest _some_ of them fairly well but some they really can't. Cell walls in vegetables make it difficult for dogs to digest or utilize well. That is not their main diet and they get along fine without those things. Meat and bones they crush and rip at are the main diet of a canid. Wild dogs hunt for their food, take down prey. So would domestic dogs. They don't graze in fields of wheat. This is my understanding anyhow. Humans need vegetables to be healthy. Omnivores.

I do not recommend feeding a dog a diet absent of meat.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I didn't say early humans were carnivores. I never said which diet was healthier or better for the environment. I was merely stating that we evolved from meat-eating humans, as I was taught as an evolutionary psychology student at UCLA. Early Meat-Eating Human Ancestors Thrived While Vegetarian Hominin Died Out - Observations - Scientific American Blog Network


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## Khaleesiandthepoms (Feb 25, 2014)

This is a great post! I too am a vegetarian but have not forced my lifestyle on my dogs (not saying anyone else has either) and would like to say being a vegetarian since I was 7 years old has been challenging in getting enough of certain proteins and vitamins for years. I think while I'm healthier than meataholics I'm no more of less healthier than folks who have a moderate diet of red meat so there's that. Its also been proven scientifically vegetarians tend to have higher diets in fructose and processed sugars due to craving proteins and vitamins the body finds in meats but confuses with sugar. 

Since I started raw I've kinda seen the dogs are omnivores thing differently as well. I still agree dogs can be scavengers by necessity but I don't believe in calling them omnivores anymore. Someone made a great point to me the day I switched to raw. Open your dog's mouth and really look. I can look at every single tooth in my dogs' mouths and not a single one of them have any flat grinding teeth for plant material like us, chimps, apes etc. who are true omnivores, all of the teeth are sharp, for tearing and ripping flesh.

BUT like us with cake and cookies, licorice those foods too aren't natural for us so I don't see anything wrong w veggies and fruits occasionally for a dog ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ and in the past I've used it to help with tummy upsets but now we just change the meat source or bone or organ meat content.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I guess that this is one if those threads that has maybe wandered a little off
topic? Lol. May as well join in though....sometimes hard to resist! 

I agree with everyone else that vegetarianism should not be imposed on your dog...but I have noticed that the OP has already decided that she won't go that route so all is good.
There is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian, totally a personal choice. However I don't believe it is a healthier way of eating. Eating healthy means taking a sensible whole food approach to what you eat, whether you choose to eat meat or not. The less ingredients the better and the less processed the better. I make almost everything from scratch and avoid premade and prepackaged food as much as I can...if I can't pronounce the ingredients then I don't consume it. Yes it's more work but your health is SO worth it!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> I didn't say early humans were carnivores.  I never said which diet was healthier or better for the environment. I was merely stating that we evolved from meat-eating humans, as I was taught as an evolutionary psychology student at UCLA. Early Meat-Eating Human Ancestors Thrived While Vegetarian Hominin Died Out - Observations - Scientific American Blog Network


I don't know who you're talking to but I wasn't referring to your post. lol. I guess we should always use the quote feature, but sometimes I don't. I was referring to Sophieanne's...about dogs not being carnivores (which is, actually a bit of a controversy anyhow) and the part about meat being bad on the environment. So anyhow, back to your regular programming.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I don't know who you're talking to but I wasn't referring to your post. lol. I guess we should always use the quote feature, but sometimes I don't. I was referring to Sophieanne's...about dogs not being carnivores (which is, actually a bit of a controversy anyhow) and the part about meat being bad on the environment. So anyhow, back to your regular programming.



I was referring to sophie anne's post LOL


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Well if we're talking generally about human nutrition now (lol), then the general consensus I've seen is that people who exclude any large category of food (meat, carbs, processed foods, sugar, etc.) from their diets tend to eat healthier, most likely because it forces you to think about what you're eating. If you can put thought into your diet without doing that, you'll probably be just as healthy. Personally I've never found it all that difficult to be a vegetarian, but I also live in a place where vegan/vegetarianism is common and veggie food options are plentiful.

To make this a little more relevant to a dog forum, my decision to stop eating meat (or to only eat ethically-sourced meat) actually arose from learning about puppy mills. I was so horrified by the puppy mill trade and then I realized that those dogs are being kept according to USDA standards - which means lots of animals who are roughly as smart and social are kept in the same conditions. That's why, similar to how I try to find a breeder who raises dogs well, I try to seek out meat from places that raise their meat animals well. It's a personal choice, of course - I'm just explaining my own reasoning for anyone who happens to be curious.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> I was referring to sophie anne's post LOL




Good grief. I_ AM _confused I guess. :ahhhhh: LOL!


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## Achala (Oct 6, 2015)

*To sum up!*

I started this thread to understand 'what's out there' for my pup that goes in par with my food habits. That's all! I don't know why it was offensive to some people?! 
Isn't it natural for parents to instill the values they believe in their children? My son is the only vegetarian in his class. All his best buddies are non vegetarians. He respects _his choice as well as theirs_. 
Similarly,I was trying to see if its possible to raise a vegetarian dog. What's wrong with that? Many of you have given compelling reasons not to do that and I agree with you! Why bash vegetarianism? We may or may not have evolved from meat eating humans, but I have evolved from vegetarian parents 

Thanks,
Achala


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Yes let's face there are many things that go on in this world that are totally unethical but which we really have no control over, unfortunately. 
If I thought I could make a difference in the way animals are raised and treated for consumption by becoming a vegetetarian then I would do it in a heartbeat.
The sad truth is that it is a greedy world that we live in and it is not going to change. I try not to dwell on it because I would spend a lot of my time being depressed. I have very strong beliefs in animal welfare but I can't let it consume me because it would just be too stressful. 
I make sure my own animals are happy and well looked after (including my pet piggy who is NOT for consumption) and that my own family is eating healthy?


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Achala said:


> I started this thread to understand 'what's out there' for my pup that goes in par with my food habits. That's all! I don't know why it was offensive to some people?!
> Isn't it natural for parents to instill the values they believe in their children? My son is the only vegetarian in his class. All his best buddies are non vegetarians. He respects _his choice as well as theirs_.
> Similarly,I was trying to see if its possible to raise a vegetarian dog. What's wrong with that? Many of you have given compelling reasons not to do that and I agree with you! Why bash vegetarianism?
> 
> ...


Yes I think a "nutrition thread" should have been started! 

And there is nothing wrong with being a vegetarian.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Achala said:


> I started this thread to understand 'what's out there' for my pup that goes in par with my food habits. That's all! I don't know why it was offensive to some people?!
> Isn't it natural for parents to instill the values they believe in their children? My son is the only vegetarian in his class. All his best buddies are non vegetarians. He respects _his choice as well as theirs_.
> Similarly,I was trying to see if its possible to raise a vegetarian dog. What's wrong with that? Many of you have given compelling reasons not to do that and I agree with you! Why bash vegetarianism?
> 
> ...


Oh dear...I don't think anyone is bashing vegetarianism if they don't agree with it...or is offended at all. I certainly wasn't...just that it's not appropriate for dogs...which you've already conceded to. 

I think vegetarianism is fine as long as alternate protein sources are adequate and I think they are available for humans. Dogs and humans have different digestive systems (a little bit) and different needs though. 

My daughter's bf's parents are both vegans. When they come for Thanksgiving, they'll eat some things I prepare and bring some things they prepare. They'll eat my squash if it doesn't have any butter on it but no animal products of any kind.

Well, the lovely mother of my daughter's bf was feeling weak and tired and the doctor found she was low on iron and she took a supplement. After some time, she still felt lousy and it was finally discovered she has liver and stomach cancer throughout. She is terminal and we're all very sad about this. His dad walks 10 miles a day!!! I can't even imagine and he down hill skis almost daily in the winter. He's 73 or something years old!!! They were both very active and into all things healthy. And this happened. Of course that's not meant to be any kind of _see what happened?_...that would be ridiculous taking one sample here and one there. But my point is that I think that saying, "all things in moderation" is a valuable concept. 

And yes, we strayed yet again from that line that makes a border around the main topic. It just seems to happen a lot. I think it's got something to do with human nature...or the nature of how conversations evolve. lol. Sorry.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Achala said:


> I started this thread to understand 'what's out there' for my pup that goes in par with my food habits. That's all! I don't know why it was offensive to some people?!
> Isn't it natural for parents to instill the values they believe in their children? My son is the only vegetarian in his class. All his best buddies are non vegetarians. He respects _his choice as well as theirs_.
> Similarly,I was trying to see if its possible to raise a vegetarian dog. What's wrong with that? Many of you have given compelling reasons not to do that and I agree with you! Why bash vegetarianism? We may or may not have evolved from meat eating humans, but I have evolved from vegetarian parents
> 
> ...


I think you're doing great! It's important to remember that you can't hear tone of voice when you're reading things on the internet, so where possible try to imagine that you're hearing it from someone who likes you and has a smile on their face. I didn't read anyone as being offended or bashing (and I'm vegetarian myself, as I mentioned). Food is an emotionally fraught subject, though, so it's tricky to discuss with strangers.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Achala said:


> Why bash vegetarianism? We may or may not have evolved from meat eating humans, but I have evolved from vegetarian parents
> 
> Thanks,
> Achala


I never bashed vegetarianism; I stated that I think it's difficult to be a vegetarian and get the proper nutrients, especially if you are a woman. I actually think it's very admirable to be a vegetarian or vegan!


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Well I think there is some excellent information here, both on and slightly off topic, but to me that's the beauty of conversation and the places it takes you. I also think everyone has been very respectful in their comments, and some extremely interesting points of view. For me, I could very easily be a vegetarian some days but I do so love a good steak. Abbey eats meat, mostly fish and chicken (some beef) that I cook myself and plenty of vegetables, fruits and some dairy. She has kibble for breakfast with Greek yogurt on top, egg shells, coconut oil and golden paste on a regular basis. I hope I'm giving her what she needs, although my vet has voiced his displeasure with home cooked diets for dogs. It's tough sometimes to know what best for ourself sand our dogs.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

many years ago i was at a seminar where someone said dietary habits are the hardest to change. then of course there are the recent stories about whole milk, eggs and butter maybe having been wrongly vilified all these years after all. never have been a milk drinker (lactose intolerant), but refused to give up eggs and butter - just am more careful about the amount i use. we really don't know as much as we think we know when it comes to so many things. i wonder how we dare to think we are going to take ourselves with our limited knowledge and vast prejudices to the stars and do anything more than harm!


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## sophie anne (Feb 17, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Good post Sophie Ann, even if I don't agree with each item. As far as science being flawed, did you look at this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1RXvBveht0&list=UUo79qbil7BXihBa6jfDykxQ&index=2&feature=plcp
> 
> The proof that red meat causes all kinds of ailments is very possibly not proof at all, possibly all correlative. I know plenty of healthy people who eat red meat. My ancestors ate red meat and lived well into their 90's. A lot of science is very flawed. If you watch that video, you'll see why I think that and so many studies I've read myself are poorly done. So, things should be taken with a grain of salt, I guess is what I'm saying.
> 
> ...


Like I said at the beginning of the thread, I don't think that feeding a puppy a vegetarian diet is a good idea right now. Theoretically possible some day, but not right now.

A lot of the video (just finished it) seems to refer to poor media portrayal in popular media of results from studies published in scientific journals. One of the most annoying things in research is when big media picks up your research because they so often misstate your results and create confusion in the public regarding the trustworthiness of scientists and their research.

Calling scientists as a category "freakin' liars" like he does at the end because of confusing jargon in some papers or because of misinterpretation of their statements by media hardly seems fair. Most scientists are terrible at conveying results to the public, but I would argue that conveying results of research to the public may _not be the scientists job_ because researchers themselves are mostly funded to do studies, get results, and report them. Policy and health recommendations come later.

Scientific publications in journals represent more of a conversation than a static series of facts (by this I mean that no scientist publishes something expecting it to be taken as the definitive solution to a question, but more as an additional piece to an infinite puzzle) so looking at one study or even ten studies misses a lot of the story and can make it seem like there is no consensus. But there is not, in general, willful deception.

Great book tangentially related to the trustworthiness or lack thereof of scientists: Merchants of Doubt.

Anyway, yeah, I don't want to keep spinning this thread off topic so I don't want to launch into a whole discussion on that here. Start a new thread if you want to chat further and I'll join in. :alien2:


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## kayla_baxter (Jul 17, 2015)

If your vegetarianism ethical, there is a fairly new kibble on the market that may interest you. Open Farm is a Canadian company but is produced in the U.S. They are the first kibble that is Certified Humane and the majority of the fruit and veggies used are local to the manufacturing plant. They're a really awesome company with some really good practices. It's pricey, but it's a good food and supports a good cause. Certified Humane is not an easy title to get. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I do think that there are balanced vegan kibble options available. Two that I'd recommend are: (1) V-dog available at V-dog ? V-dog and (2) Natural Balance vegetarian formula, available at most pet stores. One of my friends switched to v-dog and felt that her poodle's health improved, especially her coat. Lots of dogs are allergic to various kinds of meat and with all of the dog food recalls, I think vegan kibble is a safer option. I also have very strong objections about the cruelty of the factory farming methods used in this country. 

I feed my dog vegan kibble and I supplement it with meat, fish or eggs, all of which I purchase from farmers who raise their animals humanely. If you want to find farmers who produce humanely raised meat, see Eat Wild. Eggs and cheese are also good sources of protein, though I have the same concerns about how the animals that produce them are raised that I do for meat. Another option is fish. Canned wild salmon is an economical and healthy option. My dogs eat a lot of tilapia.

I know that there are a lot of strong feelings on this forum about how dogs "need" meat, but I'm not convinced that these opinions are science-based. I think if I had a lab or a golden (breeds that will happily gulp down whatever you feed them), I'd try a vegan diet. But I give my poodles meat just because they are fussy eaters and they really really love meat.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Achala said:


> Eric,
> I definitely can't handle raw meat and kibble form sounds good. Thanks for other suggestions too. I am learning a lot! I agree with you that dogs may not get their nutritional needs with vegetarian food. I won't do it
> I beg to disagree with your statement about human vegetarian diet though! Vegetarians are at a lower risk of developing Heart diseases, Colo-rectal, ovarian,breast cancers, diabetes,hypertension and obesity compared to our carnivorous counterparts :aetsch:
> 
> ...


I agree with all you say, but my statement had nothing to do with health of vegetarian humans. I said it is difficult to maintain a healthy vegetarian diet compared with a balanced diet with meat. One has to work harder and be more switched on to nutritional needs. It is precisely because sensible vegetarians are careful with their diet that they are more healthy than the median population. Many others (meat apart) have little interest in maintaining healthy diet, period. A lot of vegans have become so anti protein that they have serious health problems including mental health problems. Vegetarians chose to eat a healthy diet. Some vegans reject protein meats on reactionary animal protection grounds. If they are smart enough to eat well, all very good. If not they will suffer. One of my cousins was a vegan and she died early and sick for her troubles. Her partner was vegetarian and still lives at 90 odd years. He chose a healthy diet! I am not beating up vegans or vegetarians. You are what you eat. But dogs (and cats) will not be healthy without a lot of protein foods. As I said, "it is theoretically possible to formulate a healthy vegetarian food for dogs but as far as I know it has not yet been done." For humans it is otherwise proven. You have NO need to defend your choice of diet to me.
Eric. :angel2:


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Achala said:


> I started this thread to understand 'what's out there' for my pup that goes in par with my food habits. That's all! I don't know why it was offensive to some people?!
> Isn't it natural for parents to instill the values they believe in their children? My son is the only vegetarian in his class. All his best buddies are non vegetarians. He respects _his choice as well as theirs_.
> Similarly,I was trying to see if its possible to raise a vegetarian dog. What's wrong with that? Many of you have given compelling reasons not to do that and I agree with you! Why bash vegetarianism? We may or may not have evolved from meat eating humans, but I have evolved from vegetarian parents
> 
> ...


No one post I have seen said the poster was offended. No one has flamed you. Your choice is yours and you will be healthier for it. Do try not to be too defensive. We are here to help not to criticize. No one will critique you but yourself.


"Why bash vegetarianism? We may or may not have evolved from meat eating humans, but I have evolved from vegetarian parents"

I have read through the posts. No One has bashed vegetarianism or you?? but you have been defensive of your dietary choice. People have responded to your call for vegetarian dietary help, for your new dog. Your diet and your son's diet is irrelevant and has not been critiqued. I am sure since you posted here for help in formulating your future dogs diet that your son's diet is exemplary. Caring people are caring people, period. You are not being "bashed" 




Eric.:angel2:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

sophie anne said:


> Like I said at the beginning of the thread, I don't think that feeding a puppy a vegetarian diet is a good idea right now. Theoretically possible some day, but not right now.
> 
> A lot of the video (just finished it) seems to refer to poor media portrayal in popular media of results from studies published in scientific journals. One of the most annoying things in research is when big media picks up your research because they so often misstate your results and create confusion in the public regarding the trustworthiness of scientists and their research.
> 
> ...


I don't want to take this too far off topic...wouldn't want to get "brow beaten" again. But I thought I shouldn't ignore your well written post. I just want to say quickly (edited...but it didn't turn out quickly) that you make some very good points I think. But also that the science video guy does too.

I do believe that much of what is done in the world of science, medicine and big pharma is driven in large part by politics and money. That's where the liar thing comes into play. And that what he talks about as far as how conclusions are reached without proper parsimony is absolutely true. It has been shown to be true in _many_ cases how they didn't go through the correct steps to reach a conclusion. (it even happened in studying wolves and coming up with the pack theory connection to domestic dogs which is irrelevant and those scientists even admitted to their woefully faulty studies) 

How he opens with the newspaper headlines changing back and forth...eggs are good, eggs are bad etc, may well be in part, on account of media irresponsibility. So some of the video is about improper media reporting. But I believe strongly in the other points he makes. For instance...how they came up with the idea that fat clogs arteries and plays a significant role in cholesterol when it does not. This was never proven. But has been touted for decades. And doctors still go with it. I had one doctor tell me that although she believed in what I was saying about that, that they still have to go with what the AMA has for guidelines until that changes officially. So her recommendations must line up with faulty research.

So, some of this is mildly relevant really, to what is being discussed here...not so much about dogs. But the conversation was already branching out to include human diet a little bit. My goodness, aren't we all great conversationalists how we have so much to talk about? I think it's great! :act-up:


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## Reiko (Mar 9, 2013)

*+1 for Acana, Orijen. I'm Vegan, Dogs Are Not*

I am in agreement with sophie anne and lisasgirl.



sophie anne said:


> Instead, I try to support small businesses and companies that are sustainably and humanely harvesting the animal protein ingredients that Ari needs to grow healthy and strong.
> 
> Ari eats Acana kibble.. Acana is not vegetarian, but the meats in the food come from small farms and local fisheries near the factory.. The ingredients are considered human-grade.
> 
> There are probably other kibbles that ethically source their ingredients, so you could do some research. Acana works well for Ari..





lisasgirl said:


> I'm a vegetarian, and I just make sure to feed my dog foods that come from ethically raised meat sources. Orijen and Acana are two very high-quality kibble brands (both from Champion Pet Foods) that use local, pasture-raised meats. If you can't afford or find a brand that you're sure uses ethical meat sources, you're better off with at least feeding lamb formulas - lamb pretty much has to be pasture-raised or the meat doesn't turn out right, so you're more likely to get meat that hasn't been exposed to feed lots or other inhumane conditions.


I'm a vegan -- no animal products for me of any kind. (My husband describes himself as "plant-based".) However, after researching dog vegetarianism and for reasons others have pointed out in this thread, we decided our dogs shouldn't be vegetarian just because of us.

As a vegan, I am very concerned about humane and sustainable sources of dog food. I too decided that Champion's foods were one of the best options for us after reading about them and reviews. We initially started on Orijen Regional Red for both the MPoo Zukes and Bichon Moche. However, this is one of the most expensive premium dog foods. We tried Acana (a few dollars cheaper), but the boys were very reluctant to eat it, even after trying various flavors. After that, we decided to go back to Orijen's Regional Red. They were enthusiastically eating again. They love that stuff.

If for some reason we decided we need to start paying less for dog food, we would possibly go back to Taste of the Wild Sierra Mountain Canine Formula (Roasted Lamb), half the price and for the reason lisasgirl mentioned about being pasture-raised. Or other quality, lamb-flavored kibble brands.

It's great that you too are concerned and thoughtful about whether your dogs should/could be vegetarian.


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## Reiko (Mar 9, 2013)

*"Certified Humane" is Deceiving*



kayla_baxter said:


> If your vegetarianism ethical, there is a fairly new kibble on the market that may interest you. Open Farm is a Canadian company but is produced in the U.S. They are the first kibble that is Certified Humane


Months ago, when I learned about Open Farm, I did some research and decided it was not good enough to meet my standards as a vegan searching for an omnivorous kibble for our dogs.

Have you read the "Certified Humane" standards?

I downloaded then read several of these standards. "Certified Humane" may debeak hens; castrate pigs, cows; tail-dock pigs; dehorn cows; not give outside access to pigs, chickens or pasture access to cows. Knowing this, and not personally knowing what Open Farm exactly do or don't do to their animals, I was not satisfied to select this brand just because it's labeled "Certified Humane".


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