# Vaccinations required by law?



## Arborgale (Dec 11, 2011)

I have been reading everyone's posts about vaccinations. I am confused. 

We always had our mpoo vaccinated with most everything the vet suggested. I even suggested the lepto because we are in the woods with a stream and have lots of mice around. Sometimes they get in the house in the winter, but we trap them. 

She never had the Kennel Cough one because we never boarded her and she was rarely around strange dogs. Just her cousin dogs every couple months, who also do not board.

In the end days for her she was house bound except for being carried out to potty. The vet said we did not need to vaccinate for anything even though she was due for rabies (3yr). I thought rabies was required by law. I was really surprised when the vet did not push the shots. I did not know that I had a choice. 

Now after reading here, I find I do have a choice. I am bringing home my new baby mpoo at the end of the year and I have to figure out what to do about vaccinations. 

So what I really want to know is what vaccines if any are required by law?

Should I really be doing the lepto?

What is titering? 

Thanks!

I forgot to add we live in Virginia.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

No way I would ever vaccinate for Lepto. The risks are too high for side effects and, remember, Lepto is a bacterial illness. Bacterial vaccines are not as effective as viral vaccines. They must be repeated to be effective and they only protect against a few of many strains. This is true for Lepto and it's true for Kennel Cough. But in all honesty, Lepto is a nasty vaccine.

Rabies is the only vaccine required by law, at least where I live. It must be done according to your state's requirements (if you live in the US). Many states allow a 3 year vaccine. Most vets will give a 1 year initial rabies vaccine (in my opinion, preferably done when the puppy is NO younger than 6 months). Then, one year after that, a 3 year vaccine will be done. Every 3 years from that point on is what is legally required in many states. Unfortunately, I believe a few states still require annual rabies, though research shows this is not necesssary.

As for other vaccines, I personally finish the puppy series of DHPP ( 3 sets), followed by a fourth set one year following the 3rd puppy series. After this, my dogs are vaccinated for life. 

I do not vaccinate for Lepto. I did, against my own ethics, vaccinate for Kennel Cough so that my dogs could have tags to a local private dog park. Kennel Cough is considered a low risk vaccine, though. I just think it's unnecessary. Kennel Cough is rarely life threatening and a dog can still get Kennel Cough if exposed to any of the several strains that are not part of the vaccine...

I highly suggest looking up Dr. Jean Dodd's Vaccine Protocol.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Shots required by law may vary by location. I'm in North Dakota and the only thing required here is rabies... A titer is where the vet measures the antibodies for what you're looking for (rabies, distemper, parvo, etc...) in the blood. This can tell them whether or not your dog has adequate antibodies and doesn't need to be re-vaccinated, or whether the antibodies are lacking and a vaccination is warranted.

Hope this helps!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

The only vaccination required by law in Virginia is the rabies shot. 

I'm with CM. I don't give mine anything they don't need. As you've read in other threads, many vets will balk at an owner choosing not to vaccinate. They will argue with you, tell you X number of pets have died from Distemper, etc. but I weighed the pros and cons. 

If you examine vaccinations and antibodies (the immune response), you'll start to question WHY dogs are vaccinated so much and humans...not so much. Do we get booster shots every three years? No. So why do dogs? It's worth the time and effort to do the research and of course, to have an open dialogue with your vet. Only you can decide what's best for your pooch, but remember. S/he is relying on you to make an informed decision. 

W Jean Dodds Vaccine Protocol VACCINATION PROTOCOLS

Catherine O’Driscoll | Purdue Vaccine Study


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## Arborgale (Dec 11, 2011)

Rowan said:


> The only vaccination required by law in Virginia is the rabies shot.
> 
> I'm with CM. I don't give mine anything they don't need. As you've read in other threads, many vets will balk at an owner choosing not to vaccinate. They will argue with you, tell you X number of pets have died from Distemper, etc. but I weighed the pros and cons.
> 
> ...


Thanks Rowan. We live in the same area. 

Have you or anyone here had any issues with vets withholding services unless you do as they say? 

I am looking for a new vet for our new puppy. While we liked our old vet (they were nice, clean, etc.), they were also very pushy. And even went so far as to withhold a Proin refill if we did not come in to get her updated on her shots. When we got in and it was decided that she did not need shots they said they would not give the refill unless we get another 6 month senior blood panel and wellness tests. ($500) . She has been fine on the Proin since her spay as a puppy. There was no need for another set of wellness tests except to bring in more money. We did not like the pressure and the fact that they were holding the refill as a means to get us to open our wallets.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Arborgale said:


> Thanks Rowan. We live in the same area.
> 
> Have you or anyone here had any issues with vets withholding services unless you do as they say?
> 
> I am looking for a new vet for our new puppy. While we liked our old vet (they were nice, clean, etc.), they were also very pushy. And even went so far as to withhold a Proin refill if we did not come in to get her updated on her shots. When we got in and it was decided that she did not need shots they said they would not give the refill unless we get another 6 month senior blood panel and wellness tests. ($500) . She has been fine on the Proin since her spay as a puppy. There was no need for another set of wellness tests except to bring in more money. We did not like the pressure and the fact that they were holding the refill as a means to get us to open our wallets.


I'm in northern Virginia. Where are you?  
Withhold something from me? Oh, heck no. I have the word "Bitch" stamped on my file; the receptionists and techs run for cover when I show up. 

I refuse to fill prescriptions at my vet's office because they charge a pharmacy minimum. They once expected me to pay a 300% markup on Zubrin. No way! It's not that I don't love my dogs or that I won't go the extra mile for them (I took a senior in for cataract surgery at the tune of $5K.) I just refuse to be taken for a fool. I demand a written or called in scrip unless it's something I need ASAP and can't fill locally within a few hours. 

I had to get frequent blood tests for the Zubrin because it can cause liver problems. That was okay as I had the research as proof. What's the issue with Proin? Can it cause any organ damage? If so, I understand the need for blood work but she doesn't need an exam every time you come in to get a refill. But it sounds like your vet was playing the switharoo on you. She didn't need one thing (shots) so they tried Plan B (exam and blood work). 

I take my pups in twice a year for blood work, an exam and Lyme's/HW test, etc. The only shot we've had recently is the Rabies (3 year). I allow them to titer once a year, but flat out told them I won't revaccinate regardless of the results. I've shared the Dodd protocol and they just nod and smile. Sometimes it pays to be a royal Bitch. Srsly.


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## Arborgale (Dec 11, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I'm in northern Virginia. Where are you?
> Withhold something from me? Oh, heck no. I have the word "Bitch" stamped on my file; the receptionists and techs run for cover when I show up.
> 
> I refuse to fill prescriptions at my vet's office because they charge a pharmacy minimum. They once expected me to pay a 300% markup on Zubrin. No way! It's not that I don't love my dogs or that I won't go the extra mile for them (I took a senior in for cataract surgery at the tune of $5K.) I just refuse to be taken for a fool. I demand a written or called in scrip unless it's something I need ASAP and can't fill locally within a few hours.
> ...


Let me tell you I felt like a bitch. When I kept saying no. I knew this was the 1st time they holding a prescription for a bogus reason. That made me mad. Maybe they were mad also because we do not fill them there either. We would get phone calls and letters saying how dangerous it was to have them filled elsewhere (1-800-Pet-meds). We disregarded them. 

She did get Lyme's when she was a puppy and we almost lost her, or at least it felt like it. But that was 14 years ago. 

So vets are familiar with titering? How much does that usually run?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

A little OT (not about vaccinations, but about urinary incontinence in female dogs...) My oldster, Hannah - 14 years old, was prescribed DES by our veterinarian. I'm not familiar with the difference between Proin vs. DES, but when our trusted acupressure clinician, along with a holistic vet from Montana, informed us of a natural alternative; we decided to try it.

Hannah is now on a maintenance course of acupressure (once every 5 weeks) and Chinese herbs to aid with her incontinence. The acupressure also targets her other age related issues, arthritis for example. Hannah hasn't leaked since she started on this method of control... I feel better not having to give her the DES (which messes with her estrogen) and as long as she's happy and comfortable with the method we've chosen, we'll just keep on it! The herbs are easily obtainable at the acupressure clinician's shop - no prescription required, but she'll only sell them to people if they're following the acupressure schedule - to me, that makes sense because the herbs and acupressure work in harmony.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Arborgale said:


> Let me tell you I felt like a bitch. When I kept saying no. I knew this was the 1st time they holding a prescription for a bogus reason. That made me mad. Maybe they were mad also because we do not fill them there either. We would get phone calls and letters saying how dangerous it was to have them filled elsewhere (1-800-Pet-meds). We disregarded them.
> 
> She did get Lyme's when she was a puppy and we almost lost her, or at least it felt like it. But that was 14 years ago.
> 
> *So vets are familiar with titering? How much does that usually run?*


I used to fill my Zubrin at KV Vet. I spoke with the sales manager and she put me in touch with someone within the pharmacy who advised they get their meds from the same supplier as the vets. I told my vet that and they stopped arguing with me. My vet almost made Zubrin (NSAID) cost-prohibitive! The mark-up was horrendous and totally unfair. 

My vet charges approx $58 per titer test, but since they moved to a brand new building all the fees seem to be creeping up.


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## Arborgale (Dec 11, 2011)

I posed the same question to our breeder. She is echoing what you all are saying. She also titers hers and does not give more than 1 vaccination at a time and spaced at least 2 - 4 weeks apart. 

So this is definately new territory for me. I was always the "dumb sheep" thinking the vet surely knew what was best. I will need to find a vet now who is supportive of all this and one that we are all comfortable with. 

I hope this is not as hard as finding a good breeder.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I'm in northern Virginia. Where are you?
> Withhold something from me? Oh, heck no. *I have the word "Bitch" stamped on my file*; the receptionists and techs run for cover when I show up.


Not sure my chart is stamped "bitch" but I suspect there is some sort of note in our chart; "irrational" perhaps.  



Rowan said:


> I refuse to fill prescriptions at my vet's office because they charge a pharmacy minimum. They once expected me to pay a 300% markup on Zubrin. No way! It's not that I don't love my dogs or that I won't go the extra mile for them (I took a senior in for cataract surgery at the tune of $5K.) I just refuse to be taken for a fool. I demand a written or called in scrip unless it's something I need ASAP and can't fill locally within a few hours.


When our vet prescribed Neosporin for Katie's nose, she told us that it was likely cheaper at the Walgreen's next to the office. That was a huge plus in my mind.

As for the original question, I've read in several places that rabies is the only vaccine required by law in most US locations.

I know rabies is zoonotic, but are the others in the typical puppy DHPP vaccination? That could be the difference - the law isn't so much concerned with the health of the dogs as it is with preventing the spread of disease to humans.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I started with a wonderful holistic vet with Jake, and she was great. That's where I started raw feeding. However, she moved and when Jake needed CCL surgery, I interviewed surgeons who were certified in the TTA procedure, which is the one I chose. I ended up choosing a vet near my home, and kept him for Jake for regular issues. He is not holistic and well, pushes Science Diet, does not advocate raw feeding, etc., and yes, said he would not refill the Metrodinozole (sp?) for Sunny's tummy issues unless I brought him in for a check up (I ordered it generically from revivalanimal.com and saved tons of $$$ by doing so). They want their office visit fees, etc., and it gets a bit much.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

If you've done your best to understand, and you're still confused, and you still feel like you're getting the run-around, then follow the $$$. :alien2:


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

And by the way, when I got Sunny 9/1/11 at 3 years old, she included her contract and she provided the puppy shots, innoculation record, etc., as well as the rabies shot he had to get to come to the U.S. Then, in all caps, she said, SUNNY WILL NOT NEED ANY VACCINATIONS FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE -- other than rabies, which is required by law.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

I read in another breeder forum, that you can buy metronidazole (ha just guessed at the spelling) from lambert vet supply in the form of "fish-zole". It is a broad spectrum antibiotic used to treat fish tanks. It is the exact suspension and tablet size as vets prescribe for giardia, only extremely cheap..something like 7 bucks for 60 tabs? I'm sure it can be purchased elsewhere cheaply too.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Actually I posted that on this forum, too, and yes, fish zole is the generic, which is what I got (maybe you saw my post). Yep, very very cheap.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks, liljacker ; ). Do you happen to know anything else Metronidazole is prescribed for besides giardia? That is the only time I've ever had to use it.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

*Metronidazole*



roulette said:


> Thanks, liljacker ; ). Do you happen to know anything else Metronidazole is prescribed for besides giardia? That is the only time I've ever had to use it.


Actually, my regular vet prescribes it for diarrhea........and when the breeder who I got Sunny from told me about the generic name, she said she keeps it around since it is good for bacteria in water if the pups are running around, etc., and she said she dissolves a tab in the dog's water. My vet, however, prescribed it for Sunny's diarrhea, and I gave it to him by mouth. Nice to know I can throw in his water for a couple of days, too. She says she always keeps it on hand just in case. When Sunny's diarrhea came back after the prescription ran out, he would not refill unless I brought him in; that's when I purchased a 30 tablet bottle for less than the 10 pills cost at my vet!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Arborgale said:


> She also titers hers and does not give more than 1 vaccination at a time and spaced at least 2 - 4 weeks apart.


This is what I did with my mini. My vet told me it was unecessary to do so and it was perfectly safe to give all the vaccines together, but he honored my wishes to separate them and didn't charge me any more for doing them separate. We did not do lepto or lyme, but we do vaccinate for bordetella so Jäger can go to doggie day care. I would prefer not to, but the risk is generally considered low for this vaccine (the intranasal version).

My vet also let me wait until my puppy was 5 or 6 months old (I can't remember exactly) to give the rabies, which is technically against the law. So I appreciated that. We will be titering from now on except for rabies, which is required by law. I am hoping something will come of this study soon so we can stop vaccinating for rabies as well: http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

On a side note, I do thinks vaccines are necessary and important, but I believe overvaccinating is something to be concerned about. My cat (who now lives with my parents b/c my hubby is allergic) has not had a vaccine in about eight years (he is 13 years old), including no rabies in all this time, but it is not required by law for indoor cats. 

My parents last cat used to get vaccinated every year per their vet. After getting her vaccines one year, she suddenly developed a strange autoimmune disorder that they never identified. She died several weeks after getting the vaccines and I do think the vaccines triggered the disorder.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Actually, Sunny did not have giardia -- the test came back negative, and then he prescribed it. It does help immediately, too. I understand it also helps when stress is the culprit for the diarrhea which it was for Sunny with all the changes, etc.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Vaccines*

This is a very good article!

Lifelong Immunity – Why Vets Are Pushing Back | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

roulette said:


> Thanks, liljacker ; ). Do you happen to know anything else Metronidazole is prescribed for besides giardia? That is the only time I've ever had to use it.


It's a human antibiotic. It's used for any number of things, but I know of people who were prescribed Metronazidole for diverticulitis. 

As for dogs, they prescribe it for colitis and IBD/IBS and of course, diarrhea issues.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My other vet suggested I get Imodium pills for my spoos' diarrhea and it worked very well. :alien2:


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