# has anyone tried breeding Standard poodle - miniature



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

opcorn:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

epsi:


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Search for moyen or klein here on the forum you'll find a ton of threads on it


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

opcorn: with a side of epsi:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Cookie:

Julie Borst Willard of Tiara poodles in CA has and is breeding standards and miniatures. They can still be registered since they fall within breeding a poodle to another poodle regardless of its variety.

However I do not believe in this type of breeding. I would rather stick to breeding standards to standards and minis to minis.

There is no reason whatsoever in my opinion to mix the two varieties, what would it prove or accomplish for the betterment of the breed in the long run anyway ? 

I feel the same way about breeding the mini to the toy variety. Would bring nothing to the table in my opinion and that of many reputable breeders I know, and have spoken to about this type of breeding.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Breeding Standards to Mini's will give you either size, or in between. Remember, genes last for generations, and so all those genetic problems in either size are now in your gene pool. Also, 5 generations down the road, you can see either size or genetic issues come back. This is a chronic problem with Toy's, many who are struggling to keep in size, as they were bred down originally from Mini's.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Tiara poodle bred one miniature to a standard several generations back. It is not true that she is continually breeding miniatures to standards. It is getting very tiresome to hear that. 

She is breeding Caniche Moyen with imported European and Russian true Caniche Moyens and her smaller line of poodles that she has developed from that one breeding.

She is also breeding standards. 
My lovely standard has all standard poodles, many from Europe and Canada, even Latvia and the US, in her breeding. Believe me, I have researched it well. Tiara, unlike many breeders, actually puts photos on line of many of the dogs in my puppies background so I can see for myself what I am getting. How many reputable breeders are doing that? 

My puppy, I measured her today, is 19.5 inches tall. She will be 6 months in 2 weeks. I am pretty sure she will be within the norm of a standard female and top out at 22 inches/23 inches, a smaller female. 

I am getting pretty darned tired of people saying Tiara is "breeding miniatures to standards". It is a complete bunch of BS. She is developing Caniche Moyen in the US and also breeding standards. 

I suppose, as has been said before, that I need to let my dog speak for what she is doing. Maybe some people need to take a good look at what she is producing 15 years after starting the venture to rework her line. If you still feel the way you do then that's fine, but no one should bad mouth another person without the facts. 

Hurumph.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Breeding standards to miniatures is a controversial topic. IMO, it should never be done. I don't care if it was a few generations back, that will have ramifications for a LONG time. There are other ways to lower a COI other than breeding to a mini. It doesn't make it _any_ better in my mind that it was done a few generations back.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Remember CM one of Outwests first posts/threads was about her controversial puppy?

And Outwest I'm one of the people that said Julie Borst was breeding mini's to standards...I understand she doesn't do it on a regular basis but if you go to the Tiara website one will find a page where she explains her choice to incorporate mini's into her line

While I have defended it adamantly here on the forum, I would never choose to breed a mini to a standard...but I could understand why one would feel they needed to do it
again I wouldn't do it because my chosen colour is red and apricot...and as Tabatha pointed out in one of those threads that would be DISASTROUS if one is aiming for conformationally sound animals (breeding backwards and what not)


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

As everyone is entitled to their own opinion, let me say that if I do get another poodle, it would probably be from Karin Benker and she breeds Moyens. I would be totally happy with that. I can't see any more risk in breeding the two different sizes - so long as health testing is done. Anyway, it wouldn't bother me.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Remember CM one of Outwests first posts/threads was about her controversial puppy?


OOOOOOH yeaaah!!!! I remember that thread...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley said:


> As everyone is entitled to their own opinion, let me say that if I do get another poodle, it would probably be from Karin Benker and she breeds Moyens. I would be totally happy with that. I can't see any more risk in breeding the two different sizes - so long as health testing is done. Anyway, it wouldn't bother me.


Does Karin breed mini to standard/has she bred mini to standard to get her kleins?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Hi Outwest:

I dont want you to understand my post about mini X standard breeding in the wrong way.

I have ALOT of respect for Julie Borst Willard of Tiara fame, and I mean FAME because she has produced some spectacular dogs in who won big time and has proven herself in the breed owner handler. She has done as an owner handler very well for herself and her line was well known and respected.

I very much respect Julie's knowledge of poodles, pedigrees, health/genetic and she is definitely far from being a BYB, puppy miller or an ill reputed breeder. 

What I did say is that I dont think I personally would choose this type of breeding as I dont believe it would give me the results I hope for.

Julie knows genetics like very few do, and if she feels comfortable with what she is doing than who are we to judge her ?!

I learnt alot from the vast information on Tiara's website and inspite of the fact that I personally do not believe in or would breed a standard to a mini does not mean that what Julie is doing is wrong.

Just because I personally have no intention to breed stand. to minis I would not label Julie a bad breeder or a breeder who should be labelled unethical. 

It is Julie's choice, I may not agree with it, but I would never label her unethical or lacking in breed knowledge, on the contrary, I do have overall erspect for her.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I guess you can try it if you want your dogs to look retarded. Long bodies, short legs. Yeah that looks good.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

outwest said:


> Tiara poodle bred one miniature to a standard several generations back. It is not true that s*he is continually breeding miniatures to standards*. It is getting very tiresome to hear that.
> 
> .


I didn't see anyone say that....


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

No need to get nasty just cause you and others including myself do not believe in breeding minis to standards and toys to minis... 

Julie B. Willard does have phenomenal knowledge of the breed regardless of what she chooses to breed and I DO have respect for her vast knowledge and do not concentrate solely on her breeding choices., as there are many other positive things about this woman.

I have learnt alot from information on her website. And.. still choose *NOT *to breed minis to standards, but I wont lynch her or call her dogs RETARDED. Not nice !


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I don't think this type of breeding is something people just try...Clearly its controversial. Or it has been on this. I never got the whole thing that by doing this it lowers COI's. 

I really don't see the point when there are 3 sizes. Why mess with it?


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

I don't know the first thing about poodle genetics or breeding, but my first poodle is 17.5" tall and 18 lbs. His dam was an average mini at 13" from Carenuff Poodle line, and his sire is roughly the same size as Alex at 17.5". 

But his grandsire is only 11" and 9.8 lbs and is from the Callimont Poodle line (Chez Doral Grand Slam something or other). His Grand dam (not sure if that's the right terminology here) has some of the Rochambeau poodle line. I think they're all miniatures with the exception of Callimont which breeds toys.

I don't know what any of it means or how Alex ended up a moyen/klein or whatever the heck you call an oversized mini, but it's kind of fun to research the pedigrees.  

What I do know is that he's a fantastic poodle and a loving companion.

...and it's getting heated in here so I think I'll run for the hills now! ;-)


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Olie said:


> Ora - *I think it was meant for Cookie since she asked the question *




You are right, I reread the post and deleated that part.. left the part I feel should stay.
Thanks Olie


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Ora,
That was a lovely post on Kiara poodles- and I am really glad that you accord her so much respect, as it reaffirms for me that I wouldn't have made a big mistake choosing one of her babies, which I almost did... it was before Lynn steered me towards you.
Of all the breeder sites that I found on my own, hers impressed me the most with it's holistic approach to breeding poodles. 

After Zack died, I contacted Julie inquiring about her babies, and she sent me a very nice personal email, which I thought was so kind of her.
But then I met you and all the rest is history I'm soo smitten with Ormar babies..
Dolores
PS:Outwest: I adore your Bonnie puppy! She is gorgeous..


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

And YES I wholeheatedly agree that I also would not breed minis to standards because that is not MY choice to go forward with.....

What I meant is that just because someone decides to breed the two together they should not be lynched for it. Disagreed with, yes... but not lynched.

Remember so many breeders were so adamantly against parti poodles and I at one point was also against them, until I got to talk to some breeders who knew what they were doing and did not breed for the allmighty dollar instead worked diligently and as a result produced trully magnificent partis who conform to the standard and who could of easily be shown and finished in conformation had the breed standard allowed it.

I am NOT saying that what Julie does in her breeding and her choices are mine, or even considered correct, but lets give credit where credit is due, this woman (Julie) has amassed enormous knowledge about the breed which she willingly shares with everyone who is interested.

This does not mean she is pushing or advocating everyone to breed the two varieties, it just means she is doing it HER way , and the only way it feels comfortable to HER .

Again, I do NOT agree with Julie's choices to mix the two, however I do respect her for her immense knowledge of the breed.

So express negative opinion about Julie's breeding choices, but alas also give her the respect she deserves for having so much knowledge of the breed and power packed with a ton of information, regardless of her breeding choices.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=papoodles;176948]Ora,
That was a lovely post on Kiara poodles- and I am really glad that you accord her so much respect, as it reaffirms for me that I wouldn't have made a big mistake choosing one of her babies, which I almost did... it was before Lynn steered me towards you.
Of all the breeder sites that I found on my own, hers impressed me the most with it's holistic approach to breeding poodles. 

After Zack died, I contacted Julie inquiring about her babies, and she sent me a very nice personal email, which I thought was so kind of her.
But then I met you and all the rest is history I'm soo smitten with Ormar babies..
Dolores
PS:Outwest: I adore your Bonnie puppy! She is gorgeous..[/QUOTE]*

Dolores:

Thanks so much for your kind comments. I DO and will always have respect for Julie.
I also agree that I will never breed the two varieties together but I also give credit where credit is due and this woman is a power house of information.

I went to her website and had taken a few days to read through it all.
NO, I would not go her route in breeding, however I have pulled an enormous amount of knowledge from her site for which I am grateful.

Have a great weekend.
Ora


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

True, WP. Though I disagree with more than the breeders decision to have bred two varieties together.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

[*QUOTE=ChocolateMillie;176957]True, WP. Though I disagree with more than the breeders decision to have bred two varieties together.[/QUOTE]*

CM:

You may be right I dont profess to know "everything" about what a breeder does, I only know what I was told and also from personal on line conversations with Julie many years ago on a poodle chat line. I had formed my opinion about her before she started to breed minis to standards.

But even if I disagreed and I DO with her choices of breeding or even with whatever you are referring to about her as a breeder, I still would respect the knowledge she has in the breed.

I also dont feel comfortable when someone bashes a breeder on an open for all to see forum because as you can see there are two members here who did purchase their pups from JBW and are happy with them, so why rain on their parade and make them feel badly not only about their pups but also their choice of breeder. Their purchase was already consumated and the Tiara pups are already with both owners and so what change can a negative comment about their breeder make in their lives? The pups are already living with them ....

And... who is to say ... maybe one day you too will find something shady about your breeder and then what would you do, go bash them on an open forum while you already have purchased your dog from them ?

So all I am saying is these two members already have their Tiara dogs, they are happy with both their pups and their breeder and I would just leave it at that.

If I was one of these two or both PF members, I would feel so badly about what was said about my breeder I would definitely not come back to this thread or forum.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Fair enough, although one person who owns a puppy from that breeder had a first post bringing awareness to the fact that they had chosen a puppy from a breeder that was "controversial" on this forum.

This is an open, public forum. Nobody is obliged to talk rainbows and butterflies and personal opinions can be expressed. If someone wants to bash one of my 3 breeders so be it. .

All I have said is that i disagree with the breeder and that's all I will say. How is this not okay?

There's been far worse said, surely, about this breeder and others on this forum.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> ... as Tabatha pointed out in one of those threads that would be DISASTROUS if one is aiming for conformationally sound animals (breeding backwards and what not)


Could you post a reference to the thread or explain why "that would be DISASTROUS if one is aiming for conformationally sound animals" in more specific terms ?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Because the apricot and red standards were bred UP from minis to standards so reintroducing ANY mini blood would result in some whack a doodle combinations, I'd imagine more so than just breeding a black standard to a black mini, 

If you look at some breedings resulting from mixing the varieties you can see that its not usually a uniform litter, longer bodies, shorter legs, heads a bit mis-proportionate, etc.

Gimmick Thread

I still think that these people have reasons for breeding that way...like Ora said I wouldn't chose it for my own (nonexistent) line...but I can see why someone would feel they must make that choice (genetic bottle neck...though I think blacks and whites may have a broader spectrum than other colours to work with)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My,my. I personally love the way my pup looks and am very happy with everything about her. Nothing will change that. The breeder had some issues with eye openings being too large, leg length and the like, but those are all worked out now as far as I can tell. 

Why would I want to participate in a forum that bashes my pup? There are a lot worse poodles around then mine, surely. I feel like saying, "I'm outta here," because this is supposed to be fun sharing thoughts about poodles with like minded people, but I think I should just keep posting my pics of Bonnie growing up. See what becomes of this 'mutt'. Maybe I will come up against some of you in AKC some day. 

I do not condone or even believe that breeding that mini to the standard was entirely necessary, but I do think the results she is getting now are good. It was more than that one mini, by the way. It was bringing in foreign dogs to the line, too, with agility conformations in there (stocky looking poodles). 

There were some bumps along the way, surely. The first generations had some issues, I have no doubt. There were bumps for the partis and the reds, too. There are bumps with anything anyone does that is out of the norm, but to focus on the mini is shortsighted. Was it wrong to breed to agility dogs of different conformation? Was it wrong to develop a line of true Caniche Moyen in the states because we don't need another size? Is maintaining the status quo always the right thing to do? Someone has to be the pioneer. Someone had to start trying to breed partis. Someone had to envision a red standard. Look where those dogs are now.

I do not know the other member that has a Tiara poodle. I sure would like to know who it is and see what he or she thinks about theirs. Mine looks great and has a great personality. Her breeder was entirely upfront and honest about everything. She even mentioned the dog she had with a hip issue from a different breeding. All I know is that I looked at and investigated a number of breeders before choosing my pup and I have not reqreted it.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

*


ChocolateMillie said:



Fair enough, although one person who owns a puppy from that breeder had a first post bringing awareness to the fact that they had chosen a puppy from a breeder that was "controversial" on this forum.

This is an open, public forum. Nobody is obliged to talk rainbows and butterflies and personal opinions can be expressed. If someone wants to bash one of my 3 breeders so be it. .

All I have said is that i disagree with the breeder and that's all I will say. How is this not okay?

There's been far worse said, surely, about this breeder and others on this forum.

Click to expand...

*
CM:

NO ONE implied that you or anyone on this forum talk rainbows and butterflies about a breeder.

The point you are missing here is that the sale of the 2 Tiara dogs to the 2 PF members is a DONE DEAL. They already own the dogs as such it is a moot point in trying to make them feel badly about their puppies, and/or pointing out the bad things about their breeder.

My point is IF and it is a *big IF* the two PF members were to ask about Tiara and OUR opinion of this breeder BEFORE they purchased their puppies, then I agree, it is an open forum and you and I as well as many here have the right and obligation to make others aware of a certain breeder with whom we do not feel comfortable for various reasons...PROVIDING ofcourse that we are in posession of FACTS about such a breeder and not mere hearsay.

BUT.... these 2 members who posted on this forum stating they own Tiara poodles ad are happy with their pups and breeder did not request anyone's opinion about Tiara, but merely said that they purchased their pup from Tiara, which I do not believe necessitate telling them what is wrong with Tiara because it would NOT make any difference in their lives as they ALREADY have Tiara dogs, and more importantly did not purchase these Tiara puppies to breed and/or show.

And.. this was the point I was trying to convey to you.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

outwest said:


> My,my. I personally love the way my pup looks and am very happy with everything about her. Nothing will change that. The breeder had some issues with eye openings being too large, leg length and the like, but those are all worked out now as far as I can tell.
> 
> Why would I want to participate in a forum that bashes my pup? There are a lot worse poodles around then mine, surely. I feel like saying, "I'm outta here," because this is supposed to be fun sharing thoughts about poodles with like minded people, but I think I should just keep posting my pics of Bonnie growing up. See what becomes of this 'mutt'. Maybe I will come up against some of you in AKC some day.
> 
> ...


*]


Outwest:

I sincerely hope you enjoy your puppy for many years to come and I would certainly like to see you in the ring with her. 

she is lovely, and I DO have a GOOD eye for a dog !*


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

outwest said:


> Why would I want to participate in a forum that bashes my pup? There are a lot worse poodles around then mine, surely. I feel like saying, "I'm outta here," because this is supposed to be fun sharing thoughts about poodles with like minded people, but I think I should just keep posting my pics of Bonnie growing up. See what becomes of this 'mutt'. Maybe I will come up against some of you in AKC some day.


I think this thread has slid out of context slightly?? - I did not see one person bash your pup, if anything you have received very nice comments since being on this forum. Your pup is lovely! 

Understand people are going to have different opinions. If you are happy with your breeder stand by her. But there will be people that agree or disagree about your breeder - it seems to be pretty normal. What is not always right is breeder bashing. I must admit unless I missed something, I have not seen that on this thread.  It's late I suppose I could have :afraid:


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

I would like to bring to the attention of some who brought the mini X standard breeding that JBW practices in her line that she has TWO distinct breedings... One breeding which she indeed breedsminis to standards and, 
the second is her breeding Standards to standards.

OutWest purchase a STANDARD puppy from Julie which emmanated from the breeding of a standard sire to a standard bitch... as such Outwest puppy IS in fact a standard and not a mini X standard pup.

Just thought that if some of you didnt know that, now you do.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Olie said:


> I think this thread has slid out of context slightly?? - I did not see one person bash your pup, if anything you have received very nice comments since being on this forum. Your pup is lovely!
> 
> Understand people are going to have different opinions. If you are happy with your breeder stand by her. But there will be people that agree or disagree about your breeder - it seems to be pretty normal. *What is not always right is breeder bashing. I must admit unless I missed something, I have not seen that on this thread.  It's late I suppose I could have :afraid:*





Ollie:

Yes there was a comment made this evening by a member on this thread which definitely alluded to Tiara being a questionable breeder, but the poster deleted the comment and edited the post at 11:26 p.m. 

You must have missed it and only read the edited version, but I did in fact see the comment before post was edited. And.. this is what I am referring to.. NO bashing of a breeders. Yes disagree with their chosen ways of breeding but dont bash them on an open forum especially to their clients who already purchased their dogs from her.

And.. that was my whole point. *No I do not *agree with breeding standards to minis but I also strongly disagree with overtly bashing breeders in an open forum for everyone including their clients to see. Sorry...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I hardly think what I said was bashing and I'd repost it in a hot second if I didn't feel bad for making a member feel bad. I asked a few questions that I genuinely have been dying to know the answer to. I have been biting my tongue and not asking those questions from the minute one member created a thread for seemingly no purpose other than to bring attention to the fact that she had purchased a "controversial puppy" (if such a being even exists).

I deleted that post that you are referring to Ora and a few others cause ya made me feel like i was perhaps making the owner of a pup from that breeder feel bad and so I felt bad.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I hardly think what I said was bashing and I'd repost it in a hot second if I didn't feel bad for making a member feel bad. I asked a few questions that I genuinely have been dying to know the answer to. I have been biting my tongue and not asking those questions from the minute one member created a thread for seemingly no purpose other than to bring attention to the fact that she had purchased a "controversial puppy" (if such a being even exists).
> 
> *I deleted that post that you are referring to Ora and a few others cause ya made me feel like i was perhaps making the owner of a pup from that breeder feel bad and so I felt bad. *





CM:

It would not come as a surprise to you that I do respect you for your knowledge in poodles and the fact that you research your stuff before you speak and also for your intelligence.

Having said this, the direction some posts between you and another poster on this thread was taking, I knew that something will eventually explode in the face of the Tiara puppy owner. I expected better from you.

We always have to put ourselves in someone else's position to see if our comments made to them would hurt us if we were in their shoes.

When you state that you would not care if someone bashes the breeders you purchased your pups from , I beg to differ, human nature is as such we are dedicated to our breeders and would defend them unless they screwed us and sold us puppies in an underhanded manner, but when someone is happy with their breeder and thrilled with the pup they purchased from that breeder it is and would of been for you too I am SURE very hard to swallow had someone bashed your breeder, maybe NOT in direct words but ALLUDING to a breeder being less than ethical is really like bashing them.

YOu did NOT bash Tiara per se, but your alluding to her and the way you referred to her vis a vis Karin was enough for anyone with half a brain to understand where this thread was going and this is why I had to put a stop to it.. because I KNEW that Outwest would get hurt and she did !


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

CM, 
Your deleted comment did make me feel bad, but I am a big girl and stick by my decision to buy this puppy. If you have any questions for me, I am happy to answer them the best I can if you pm me. The breeder does not hide anything and neither will I, but perhaps a pm would be more appropriate. You obviously feel strongly about something or another. 

The initial thread I posted long ago was because I felt I got a lovely dog after much research into what I wanted. I had several choices of breeders here in SoCal. I was curious to know what the big whoop dee do was about it. I certainly found out.  I am an RN. I know genetics and understand heredity. It didn't freak me out the one mini/standard thing. It doesn't change how happy I am with my standard pup. I did not buy a Caniche Moyen, although those were quite lovely, too. I like the larger size of poodle. 

Anyway, I am sorry this has turned the way it did. I want to stay here and participate because I just love poodles. I am a little weird that way. I will just keep posting my pics because it is fun to share my baby with others, just like it is fun for others to share their baby with me. If someone wants to see, fine. If not, fine.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

whitepoodles said:


> [/B][/COLOR]
> 
> 
> CM:
> ...


... :O

And I agree...with CM no one was bashing Tiara, or Outwest's Bonnie...I think shes a lovely girl and I can't wait to hear how she does in UKC! (maybe AKC?)

CM was just voicing her opinion, as I have, and as you have Ora about a breeder 
We all have our own way of wording what we say, and I honestly don't believe CM was being malicious with her questions and inquiries (because if she wanted to be malicious...she very well could)

BACK to breeding a mini to a standard...IMO you can "diversify" your gene pool by pulling in the other varieties but as it has been said in other threads is that diversity worth the risk of losing the look of the individual varieties?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

outwest said:


> CM,
> Your deleted comment did make me feel bad, but I am a big girl and stick by my decision to buy this puppy. If you have any questions for me, I am happy to answer them the best I can if you pm me. The breeder does not hide anything and neither will I, but perhaps a pm would be more appropriate. You obviously feel strongly about something or another.
> 
> The initial thread I posted long ago was because I felt I got a lovely dog after much research into what I wanted. I had several choices of breeders here in SoCal. I was curious to know what the big whoop dee do was about it. I certainly found out.  I am an RN. I know genetics and understand heredity. It didn't freak me out the one mini/standard thing. It doesn't change how happy I am with my standard pup. I did not buy a Caniche Moyen, although those were quite lovely, too. I like the larger size of poodle.
> ...





Outwest:

Very well said and I am looking forward to more pictures of your beautiful girl Bonnie .

If she looks in a few months from now as good as she does now.. she is gonna rock !


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

edit: I deleted a post of Bonnie in a really crappy stack without a proper show puppy cut.  We all have our pride, don't we?


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> ... :O
> 
> And I agree...with CM no one was bashing Tiara, or Outwest's Bonnie...I think shes a lovely girl and I can't wait to hear how she does in UKC! (maybe AKC?)
> *
> ...



K:

I never implied that CM was malicious in her comment or reference rather to JBW of Tiara.. what I think is that it was a strong comment which should of not been posted, like Outwest said, maybe a better way was to PM her rather than to put the comment for public viewing that CM would rather buy a dog from Karin than purchase it from Tiara.. that is all I meant.

Also.... K.... I NEVER publicly said to anyone on this forum that I would NOT buy a puppy from such and such breeder and if I have please bring that post forward so that you can refresh my memory if need be.

I have said that I would prefer to go to another breeder but NEVER outright said that I would not buy from a certain breeder, unless I know they are a puppy miller and breed with a BYB mentality.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Outwest:

You have a wonderful photo of bonnie in the older post... 
The photo to the left I would like to see her scissored differently.. Maybe if you are close to a prof. handler who knows how to scissor poodles you should consider having your girl put into pattern to set the pattern and maybe you can take it from there and practice on her but have a professional set the pattern for you first.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Okay, I will look into it. I think the breeder will know where I should go. I will ask. Like I said, I have a few months to get it together. In the mean time, the groomer is just shaving face, feet, tail and tummy and basically letting it grow while I figure out what the heck to do with it all. LOL She (the groomer) hasn't ruined anything yet. Bonnie stacks herself far better than I can ditzing around with her feet and such. I almost think I should just let her stand the way she naturally stands instead of trying to mess with it. 

No more pictures of stacking until I get it figured out. I took that last one out. (see, I deleted a post, too!).


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Outwest:

Just make sure that when you put Bonnie in pattern a professional handler does it for you. 

Pet grooming is not the same a show grooming and if you have intentions to go for conforamation, than it would be a good thing to put Bonnie in SHOW pattern from now, it will also be easier for you to blow her coat dry and also give more strength to her coat once the puppy fuzz is scissored out of certain areas. 

You will also note that with scissoring and styling her coat will grow much nicer and stronger but I definitely only use a poodle handler to scissor your girl.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

"So you think you want to show?" LOL- oy. I will start the hunt for a show groomer next week.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

outwest said:


> "So you think you want to show?" LOL- oy. *I will start the hunt for a show groomer next week.*





Outwest:

Looking at a show prospect at Bonnie's age (5 mos.) is the worst time to do it. They go through growth spurts and the 5 mos. age is not a good time to have anyone grade her as things can change for better or worse.

Take her to a show groomer (preferrably a poodle handler) and have her put into pattern (puppy show pattern) and sit on her until she is 9-10 mos. old than look at her again. You will either see she matured nicely or went off. 
Then you will decide with the opinion of your breeder or another breeder or handler if she is worthy to be shown. From the old photos posted earlier on last month on the PF pages especially the one where she looks out the window in natural stack is beautiful.. 

I dont care so much for the recent one you posted of her yesterday also because she is not scissored into show pattern and it is very difficult to judge conformation if she is not sporting the puppy cut but coat everywhere that you can not see where the angles meet etc...

There are so many poodle handler in California... you have plenty of choices. Call the Poodle Club of California (there are a few) and ask for referrals.

Good luck.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

TO the OP - as you can see, discussions about breeding minis to standards _always_ take a turn for the worst on this forum. I'm sorry we did this to your thread and I am surely partially to blame! I think your questions were answered, though. It has been done and it is controversial. 

TO Outwest - I am sorry that I made you feel badly about your puppy, that truly was not my intention. I was a bit too blunt and I lacked eloquence yesterday. I personally would not choose to have a puppy from Tiara poodles. Does that mean others shouldn't? Absolutely not. And your puppy is very pretty and I hope that she ends up being your best friend for life and I wish you both success in your (hopefully! ) show career.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Ora the last little bit of your post is what I was referring to _"maybe NOT in direct words but ALLUDING to a breeder being less than ethical is really like bashing them"_ you did that yesterday (LIKE LITERALLY *YESTERDAY*!!)...but I guess these rules of conduct just appear and disappear with the mood of the thread?

...sigh


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

This seems fitting LOL 

Poker Face Fail EPIC FAIL .COM : #1 Source for Epic Fail and Fail Pictures, Fail Videos, and Fail Stories


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Dear CM 

You are a LADY and an A CLASS ACT !! 

On another note, I trully enjoy ALL your posts. They are informative, educational, indepth researched with much aforethought.

It is people such as yourself who merit to have a beautiful quality standard poodle from a reputable, successful, and well known breeder. Your choice was correct.

Unfortunately some are not lucky as you were to get this quality to start with and it speaks volumes about not only the quality of person you are but the quality of future exhibitor you will be. Your breeder no doubt knows her breeding is in good hands with you.

Good luck with your beautiful boy.. you have a great show prospect there which no doubt will turn heads as he enters the ring !


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

Well said, Ora.
C.M is a class act..if I were her mother I would be proud to have raised such a gracious young woman.


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

To say that someone is breeding Caniche Moynen's is like saying breeding "Royal" standards, or "Teacup" toys. 

It doesn't matter if it was 3 generations or 10 generations. The gene is now present in those lines, and when breeding, people should be made aware that this gene is present, and from what I have heard, Julie does tell people this. 

Just last year was a huge article regarding Julie's breeding of Minatures and Standards in Poodle Review, explaining why she was doing this. Regardless of weather she is still breeding this way or not, that is why many people think she is still doing it.

Personally, two wrongs do not make things right, so I don't get it, unless it is to be breeding designer dogs for people in Agility, who do not want to compete against the border collies in the 24" class. 

This does not mean that people who own one of these Poodles, cannot love and cherish them. They are after all, still poodles.

Again, personally, I would not do this, nor would I buy from a line with a Mini in it, as Standards have enough troubles, and it is hard enough keeping the health we have and researching pedigree's to find where to breed to, without throwing another wrench into the mix.


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## whitepoodles (Jul 5, 2010)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> To say that someone is breeding Caniche Moynen's is like saying breeding "Royal" standards, or "Teacup" toys.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it was 3 generations or 10 generations. The gene is now present in those lines, and when breeding, people should be made aware that this gene is present, and from what I have heard, Julie does tell people this.
> 
> ...



Thanks Lavonne  and this was precisely my point which some misunderstood in regards to Julie Borst.

This woman is HONEST with anyone who asks her what and how she breeds. she does not push stuff under the carpet like some we know do.

She is honest about her breeding and she took a huge chance in doing what she is doing and yes, it is against my and many other's principle of breeding but I do have to give her the credit because she is HONEST about her work and the poodles she uses in her breeding program.

I do NOT agree with her breedings but I do respect her for her HONESTY and KNOWLEDGE about the breed regardless of the fact that she chose to mix the two varieties, she is still upfront with her clients and others in the fancy and that is a tall tale.

I know many who are purists and who breed standard to standard but also underhandidly conduct themselves by not only lying to their clients but also the fancy of what lurkes behind their lines... Julie does not.. She tells it as it is and that is commendable regardless of her breeding choices.. at least people know where they stand with both her and her dogs. 

We all know that honesty about one's line is the route to take if we are to preserve this wonderful breed and not carry it to its extinction by lying about incidents in our line or pretending that our line is clear.

How many times have I heard breeders say to prospective clients.. OH NO NOT IN MY LINE.. Really ?? LOL

So bottom line inspite of NOT agreeing with Julie's breeding modus operandi I have to give her the credit and respect for her honesty and knowledge of the breed and being upfront with the fancy and her clients about what is in her line and what she hopes to accomplish. It is HER choice to breed what she wishes to breed, but she lets her clients have a CHOICE too if they wish to purchase her puppies by being deathly honest about issues in her and OTHER lines.

And.. that is a tall tale when a breeder feels confident enough to not lie by ommission and be truthful with themselves and others and this is what is needed to preserve our breed and hopefully erradicate genetic mishaps, HONESTY about one's line !


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I as an owner of a Small Spoo which I was looking for I got out of Rescue. The more that I look at the great breeders on this website & at shows etc... there really aren't many that breed a Small Standard on purpose. Yes, I know they don't "WIN" in the show ring & find that too bad. I as a prospective owner would be a buyer but wouldn't be able to find what I was looking at from a "show" breeder. I would then have to look at a great breeder that might be controversial for breeding small Spoo's & not winning in the show rings. So, there is a place out there for us that don't show in the "breed" ring but do want a fully health tested dog & like athletic Spoo's. My male is small at 22" & 38lbs BUT it is the PERFECT size. I would love to have more that size or smaller BUT again the Controversy. I like the Moyen size & again it is really snubbed in America of sub par dogs being breed, & it is only a "fad". I find this really too bad & as a buyer in the future where does one go. I will still research this issue for the future of our family but know without fail it will be "Controversy" surrounding where one buys a small Spoo.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

3dogs said:


> I as an owner of a Small Spoo which I was looking for I got out of Rescue. The more that I look at the great breeders on this website & at shows etc... there really aren't many that breed a Small Standard on purpose. Yes, I know they don't "WIN" in the show ring & find that too bad. I as a prospective owner would be a buyer but wouldn't be able to find what I was looking at from a "show" breeder. I would then have to look at a great breeder that might be controversial for breeding small Spoo's & not winning in the show rings. _So, there is a place out there for us that don't show in the "breed" ring but do want a fully health tested dog & like athletic Spoo's._ My male is small at 22" & 38lbs BUT it is the PERFECT size. I would love to have more that size or smaller BUT again the Controversy. I like the Moyen size & again it is really snubbed in America of sub par dogs being breed, & it is only a "fad". I find this really too bad & as a buyer in the future where does one go. I will still research this issue for the future of our family but know without fail it will be "Controversy" surrounding where one buys a small Spoo.[my emphases]


I agree with you. 

As I have said elsewhere, show breeding in medium/large dogs tends toward the top of the Standard where size is concerned, because the larger dogs "show" better. In field breeds, such as the Pointer and the Weimaraner, this has resulted in dogs that are not agile enough (among other things) to give pleasing performance in the field. Both of these breeds have height limits; the Poodle Standard does not have a height limit for Standards.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

When i first started looking for a Spoo, i was looking for a rescue klein. My research led me to PF, where i learned that the klein/moyen size in USA was often on par with 'teacup' and 'royal' poodles. As a groomer, i wanted a gorgeous dog with excellent temperament, but on the smaller side (the only dog i've raised is a rescued silky/yorkie). 

I ended up meeting the most incredible breeder and ended up 'matched' with the LARGEST pup of the litter! And she's amazing! While i adore the smallish black standards that i see occasionally here, i prefer my Bonzai's beastly size and excellent, sweet temperament to any of the 'breeders' i once considered 'quality'... with the exception of one particular parti breeder who really does do it right!


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Kleinpudel/moyen is the same as medium just in German  The FCI sizes in English are Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standard. 
It would be great if we could just use English and call them the right name Medium Poodles. 
If we want to get fancy with languages we can just as well call Poodles Caniche.

You dont have to mix Standard to Miniature to get Mediums you can import lots of good mediums from Europe that have no standards in there lines.

In Europe you never mix Standards to the other sizes, but they do mix toy's to miniatures and miniatures to mediums. 

IMO people who mix spoos to miniatures and call them Moyen are just following some hype in hope to sell more pups to people who want smaller spoos. If they where doing it well they would not add spoos into the picture. 

And for people who are not sure how the FCI standard works here are the height limits:

Toy under 28 cm
Miniature 28-35 cm
Medium 35-45 cm
Standard 45-62 cm

You can then convert it into inches 

Hope this clear things up.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Back to the original post of breeding Mini's to Standards.

Everyone who owns a red standard poodle has a mini back several generations.


Ilsa Konig of Shangri-La poodles bred a small apricot standard to a Palmares mini. 

The Mini was Palmares E Pluribus Unum. According to Ilsa her fist generation was smaller standards, she said that future generations she would start to have standard heads on mini bodies, or short legs on regular bodies and the such for several generations. According to Ilsa it took 5 generations to start getting some consistency.

A few years ago a breeder from the Albany area of NY, considered repeating a red mini breeding to an apricot standard bitch. She discussed this in detail with Ilsa. Ilsa strongly persuaded Grace NOT to repeat this experiment since; first of all it was already done and second, Grace should have done it a long time ago, when she was much younger since it took Ilsa so long to be satisfied with the cross she did.

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I wrote a frickin' book about this and that and then had second thoughts. I don't think talking about specific people is really the right thing to do on a public forum. It only lends fuel to the fire. 

All I will say is that ten more years will reveal all.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

farleysd said:


> Back to the original post of breeding Mini's to Standards.
> 
> Everyone who owns a red standard poodle has a mini back several generations.
> 
> ...


This is the case for the majority of standards regardless of color. Sometimes you have to go back a lot of generations, but the mini's are usually in there.. for all those standard people who are about to scream "not my standard!" take a look way back in your pedigree before telling me that it just isn't so.....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> To say that someone is breeding Caniche Moynen's is like saying breeding "Royal" standards, or "Teacup" toys.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it was 3 generations or 10 generations. The gene is now present in those lines, and when breeding, people should be made aware that this gene is present, and from what I have heard, Julie does tell people this.
> 
> ...


*

Hope that all made sense*


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If people breed minis to standard all a mish mash with no plan or reason they are just messing stuff up, the least of which is funny looking poodles. I totally agree with that. 

If standard poodles were one of the breeds that were perfect in every way then there honestly wouldn't be a reason to mess with perfection. Poodles have been bred for hundreds of years. For hundreds of years the breed didn't have the health problems it had in the 70's and 80's. By the 1990's we had some major problems. Sure the poodles were pretty, but something had to give. How was it going to be fixed? I, for one, had a beautiful standard in looks that had numerous on going health issues. I am sensitive to this issue. 

I am excited for the breed as a whole since the poodle health registry, DNA, health testing and the reporting of issues is done by ethical breeders who are not just trying, but are strengthening the breed and producing pretty poodles, too. Reporting problems is the ethical thing to do. I agree with the previous poster that not enough breeders are reporting problems because they don't want to make public their failings. Unless everyone reports, how will people know how to help poodles? 

There is always more than one path. A breeder can choose to reach the common goal however they believe is best. No one should tell another that their way is wrong, wrong, wrong. Just do what you feel is the best and right way. Leave others alone to try their way. It can only help all poodles in the future to have many hands trying many things. Some of it is going to work...and some of it will not.

Maybe some of you think my pup is an experiment that went haywire and that's fine, but I am not a gullable, ignorant fool who was sold a bill of goods. I know dogs. I know a little genetics and I am willing to take a chance. To me, cutting a gene pool in half reduces the chances of each varieties problems in future generations, not compounds them. Heck, I bought an odd colored puppy with sparkle who is turning into a gorgeous apricoty creamy color. I took a chance. 

Follow what happens with this particular line if you are truly interested in poodles. You don't have to agree with it to follow it. At least it is totally public unlike others. Take a look at my little video under the 'wet poodle' thread. You can see my puppy when she was 5 months old. Check her size at that age, get a feel for her personality, a bit of her looks (color is washed out in the video and she is sopping wet), her vigor and her athletism. She is active, but not hyper. She doesn't look like a gargoyle to me. 

Let's just wait and see, shall we?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

whitepoodles said:


> Thanks Lavonne  and this was precisely my point which some misunderstood in regards to Julie Borst.
> 
> This woman is HONEST with anyone who asks her what and how she breeds. she does not push stuff under the carpet like some we know do.
> 
> ...


This is exquisitely well stated!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

A Mini in his ancestry?!!! OMG! Not *my* Standard!


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> This is the case for the majority of standards regardless of color. Sometimes you have to go back a lot of generations, but the mini's are usually in there.. for all those standard people who are about to scream "not my standard!" take a look way back in your pedigree before telling me that it just isn't so.....


You are absolutely right, I ran a COI using the Poodle Data Base a few days ago for a friends litter (white puppies) and back a number of generations were some mini's. 

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

For the record to follow up on Winnow's post of sizes, I converted them for all us US people. 

toy: 9.4-11 inches
miniature: 11-14 inches
medium (Klein): 14-18 inches
standard: 18-24 inches

You will notice that standard actually starts at 18 inches with a max of 24 inches. The US has no max, which I think they should have. My baby is already above the minimum in Europe for a Standard at 19.5 inches and 6 months. She will likely end up about 22 inches unless she stops growing now. I do hope she reaches 22, but maybe she won't? That is right in the middle of the range there. Many American standards are above the maximum in other countries. 

Having done a lot of traveling, I have come to realize other countries sometimes have things right that we have wrong. We certainly aren't the be-all and end-all in poodle sizes, that's for sure. There are some stunning medium poodles over there. We have a tendency to super size everything. Since my spoo has a lot of European ancestors, she would not be a huge dog anyway, even without the miniature. She's still a poodle.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Agreed- a 30 inch standard poodle is far too large. That said, it would be a Shame to cap standards in the USA at 24 inches. I happen to prefer the larger 24-27 inch range for dogs and 21-25 for bitches. What I would enjoy is a real kleinpdel size being added to the standard. And these dogs, like in Europe would not be achieved by breeding standards to miniatures.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I wish there was a cap on the height for Standards here. Our boy, being bred in Iceland, was bred to European standards, and while tiny compared to the males here, is the perfect size for over there. When he is in the ring with North American bred boys, he is dwarfed. Most of them are HUGE! And I agree with CM...I'd love to see the Klein size accepted here. Some of the red Kleins in Europe are the prettiest, nicest put together reds I have seen of any size, anywhere.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

To be fair if you look at pedigrees closely enough over there...most of them come back to American dogs (I was infatuated with a boy in Sweden and when looking at his pedigree I could have easily drove ten miles to see any number of his relatives!) at least the dogs that perk my interests that is

Elphie is only 21in at the withers at 2, where as Heaven is 7mo old and 21in at the withers...she'll be a substantial girl but if she moves gracefully and still exudes the poodley type I like... her size doesn't matter to me

That would be my only draw back on a size cap, of course there are more dogs that I like that are smaller (Thank you for pointing that out to me Terry XD) but there are still dogs that I LOVE in that 25-27in zone that I think still move and look wonderful

About introducing a klein poodle size...how would that be implemented? We'd have to import a TON of this size dog from Europe to achieve it and then it brings in the question of how to keep that gene pool from developing a bottle neck...Would breeding smaller standards to one another be enough to get that drastic of a drop in inches? (I think it is a drastic drop...look at mini breeders that breed over that limit and can't seem to stay in the range they prefer)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Tiara poodles is breeding the Klein size with imported dogs (no minis) and also breeding a line of standards. They just had a litter of each line. My pup is one of the full standards, but they are still smaller than the average US standard. 

Arreau, Quincy is gorgeous. You can see he is smaller than the North American standards from your pictures, but you can also see he is loaded with personality and beauty and seems a perfect conformation in a slightly smaller package. He certainly doesn't look like a Klein. My breeder told me Bonnie has great conformation, but would not be able to hang in AKC because she will be smaller since she has a lot of European influence, too. Do you mind telling us how tall he is at the shoulders? Isn't it difficult to show him as a slightly smaller dog here with an undocked tail to boot? Kudos to you for throwing him in the judges faces here. 

Is Quincy athletic? My spoo seems to have particularly good body control compared to my last American standard. My previous dog was large and pretty, but wasn't as put together athletically (couldn't catch a frisbee, for example). 

Anyway, I think there is room in the US for them all. We already have loads of Klein poodles, but they are sold as pets and seen as boo boo's in the breedings.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I would like to add that unless Klein becomes an accepted size in the standard, I equate breeding standard poodles and labeling them "Klein" to breeding teacup toys and royal standards. Simply a marketing gimmick because those sizes simply don't exist in this country.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

If you are sticking to AKC winning standards that is absolutely true, to a point. The way I read the poodle breed standard in the AKC is that a standard poodle is anything over 15 inches. Can you see a 16 incher winning in the standard poodle groups in this country? What a pile of hog wash the AKC standards are, created just to garner registrations fees from all poodles. There is no upper size limit, so "Royal Standards" are within the standard, of course. A tea cup toy is also within the toy standard as there is no lower limit. 

If the AKC were honest, they would put size limits. They could create a medium poodle category if they were worried about revenue. Then they wouldn't have to lie OR lose their dollars. 

I consider it a full out lie to call a standard poodle anything over 15 inches here. At least in Europe they tell it like it is. If the AKC doesn't want smaller standards than they need to put a minimum on the variety of 22 inches, but they refuse to. Why? I think it is because they would lose all that money from poodles between the sizes of 10 and 22 inches. That's a lot of $. As far as Royal Poodles, a size limit would take care of that, too.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> If you are sticking to AKC standards that is absolutely true.


Actually, I am sticking to the Poodle Club of America standards, which sets the _recognized_ breed standard in this country. 

AKC simply chooses to follow the parent club (Poodle Club of America)'s set standard. AKC does not define a breed standard.

There is no such thing as a kleinpudel, teacup poodle or royal standard in the USA.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Simply a marketing gimmick because those sizes simply don't exist in this country.


From the AKC site:
Standard: over 15 inches tall at the shoulder; Miniature: over 10 but under 15inches; Toy: 10 inches or under. 

Seems to me those sizes exist, even is they are called toy, miniature and standard instead.

Since you are saying the AKC just follows the PCA standards, to me that is even WORSE. What is the purpose of the PCA lying? Can anyone ask them?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> If you are sticking to AKC winning standards that is absolutely true, to a point. The way I read the poodle breed standard in the AKC is that a standard poodle is anything over 15 inches. Can you see a 16 incher winning in the standard poodle groups in this country? What a pile of hog wash the AKC standards are, created just to garner registrations fees from all poodles. There is no upper size limit, so "Royal Standards" are within the standard, of course. A tea cup toy is also within the toy standard as there is no lower limit.
> 
> If the AKC were honest, they would put size limits. They could create a medium poodle category if they were worried about revenue. Then they wouldn't have to lie OR lose their dollars.
> 
> I consider it a full out lie to call a standard poodle anything over 15 inches here. At least in Europe they tell it like it is. If the AKC doesn't want smaller standards than they need to put a minimum on the variety of 22 inches, but they refuse to. Why? I think it is because they would lose all that money from poodles between the sizes of 10 and 22 inches. That's a lot of $. As far as Royal Poodles, a size limit would take care of that, too.


You changed your post, but are still saying that AKC decides the breed standard. AKC has nothing to do with the breed standard. Again, they choose to follow the breed standard that has been set forth by the Poodle Club of America. 

About Poodles

Don't blame it on AKC.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> From the AKC site:
> Standard: over 15 inches tall at the shoulder; Miniature: over 10 but under 15inches; Toy: 10 inches or under.
> 
> Seems to me those sizes exist.
> ...


I'm not sure what you are having trouble understanding?

Standard, miniature and toy are the only sizes that exist in the United States. There is no royal standard, there is no Kleinpudel and there is no teacup.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Since you are saying the AKC just follows the PCA standards, to me that is even WORSE. What is the purpose of the PCA lying? Can anyone ask them?


I'm sure you can if you'd like.

The PCA standard is THE only standard for poodles in the USA. Kennel clubs like UKC and AKC decide what they will allow in their show ring, but do not determine the breed standard.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification, CM, on the breed standards and where they come from. I will ask the poodle club of America and see what, if any, their response is.

edit: I just emailed the breed standard chairperson. I'll let you know what their answer is.


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

There are breeders working on better health and diversity in standards who are crossing into health tested mini's. Standard Poodles have many health issues most due to inbreeding depression adding mini's who have different DLA types in theory will help standards achieve better immune system health. Interesting link below about the current health of Standards and DLA testing. Check out the graphs! 

MHC in dogs is called DLA

Standard Poodle Project


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I'm not sure what you are having trouble understanding?
> 
> Standard, miniature and toy are the only sizes that exist in the United States. There is no royal standard, there is no Kleinpudel and there is no teacup.


 I think she is saying that you have all the same sizes as us in Europe so there is no need to find another names for it, they all fall in too either toy, mini or standard.

So a klein pudle would either be a mini or a standard in America


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I understand that, Winnow, but the 'standard' has a range from 15 inches to the skies the limit. It hardly seems like a person would know what they were getting in most cases. If they clarified the sizes then it would be clear. A standard poodle should have a certain size and type just like in all other breeds. The least they could do is enclose a 'preferred' statement on standard size like they do about liver noses on some colors.

A Klein poodle couldn't be a mini in America because the mini is the only one that does have a size listed.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I honestly don't see what all the fuss is about. We are in the United States... we have a breed standard that we follow here, set by the Poodle Club of America. If people want to do things like they do in Europe, they can either move and show dogs in Europe, or create a movement to petition the U.S. breed club to consider a change. 

Things are done differently in many breeds in Europe. White miniature schnauzers are allowed in Germany, but the U.S. breed club's standard does not permit white schnauzers in this country. Yet BYBs are churning out white and parti-colored schnazuers and commanding high prices for these "rare" colors. Do you think this is because they want to do things like they do in Europe or because they want to make money? 
Sadly, there are poodle breeders just randomly breeding minis to standards and commanding high prices for the "perfect-sized moyens" or "kliens" when these are in fact not true medium poodles (not to mention dogs of these breeding often look very odd, with short legs and large heads). Are these breeders doing this because they want to be more like Europe? Or are they cashing in on this marketing gimmick?

And this is an entirely different issue from someone who is breeding minis into standard lines for health reasons. I don't agree with that personally (namely, minis are healthier than standards in general and I don’t like the idea of mixing up the two variety’s health issues), but it's being done for a different reason. And I realize that some U.S. breeders would like to breed true medium poodles, but if they are not showing in Europe and there is no category for showing medium poodles in the U.S., I really have to ask what is the point of doing this? Why not expend energy into petitioning the PCA to consider allowing a medium size instead of just going ahead and breeding this size?

I don't see any reason to criticize the AKC or PCA for "lying" about poodle sizes, that is just ridiculous. We have three sizes here. There is really nothing that is confusing or misleading about that, at least to me.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

outwest said:


> Tiara poodles is breeding the Klein size with imported dogs (no minis) and also breeding a line of standards. They just had a litter of each line. My pup is one of the full standards, but they are still smaller than the average US standard.
> 
> Arreau, Quincy is gorgeous. You can see he is smaller than the North American standards from your pictures, but you can also see he is loaded with personality and beauty and seems a perfect conformation in a slightly smaller package. He certainly doesn't look like a Klein. My breeder told me Bonnie has great conformation, but would not be able to hang in AKC because she will be smaller since she has a lot of European influence, too. Do you mind telling us how tall he is at the shoulders? Isn't it difficult to show him as a slightly smaller dog here with an undocked tail to boot? Kudos to you for throwing him in the judges faces here.
> 
> ...


Quincy is about 22 1/2" at the shoulder and 40 pounds. I would bet the average size of his competition is 26" and close to 60 pounds. As a puppy his size and tail were a non issue (much to my surprise) but as a teenager it has been a bit of a challenge. BUT, he is also not being shown very often as it has to fit our schedule and he is ring sided. So, each new series of shows he goes to, the first day he is getting used to it all over again. When he had puppy coat, his tail looked like it had a long dock. Now with his bum shaved, it is obvious his tail is undocked, and while I love it, apparently some judges do not. Thanks for your kind words. We love him, love his size and personality and look forward to his influence in some of our future puppies.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Quincy is about 22 1/2" at the shoulder and 40 pounds. I would bet the average size of his competition is 26" and close to 60 pounds. As a puppy his size and tail were a non issue (much to my surprise) but as a teenager it has been a bit of a challenge. BUT, he is also not being shown very often as it has to fit our schedule and he is ring sided. So, each new series of shows he goes to, the first day he is getting used to it all over again. When he had puppy coat, his tail looked like it had a long dock. Now with his bum shaved, it is obvious his tail is undocked, and while I love it, apparently some judges do not. Thanks for your kind words. We love him, love his size and personality and look forward to his influence in some of our future puppies.



I think he may not be winning because now that he is cut out, judges can see he is straight in the stifle, which is not covered by hair anymore in the CC. Especially since Canadian judges like seeing a nice turn of stifle with lovely typey movement, I haven’t heard of size being too much of a factor from what I have been told by some top show breeders.

Also, having his legs shaved, it is easier to see his slightly hackney movement. I may suggest that you put him in the Scandinavian trim, as this can hide this to a degree and it may help him finish faster, especially since he's showing with Chrystal Murray, one of Canada’s top handlers.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

It is a bit tougher for smaller sized standard poodles in the ring.

Annie is small - 21 inches. In a big ring she could quickly get lost. Arreau is likely having the same issues with Quincy. (Note that larger standards also don't go up - sometimes though that is because they tend to be a bit coarse). 

A top handler can stand out - but then there isn't as much leniency with training - and with a top handler a well trained poodle is expected. If Quincy is being ringsided - it IS new everytime and he might not be doing as well for his handler as he could be...

Arreau - I trusted Annie with a handler for her majors. She traveled in the van and spent nights in the hotel. I checked up on her often, as it was REALLY hard to have her gone, but she was being well loved and well cared for. And, she showed for Kadie (and for Kay) like she NEVER showed for me. (Insulting really!) I believe I could have finished her owner handled, but it would have taken much longer - majors are tough and I'm new to the sport and still have so much to learn. If you can get your mind (and heart) wrapped around sending him out with your handler, it will more than likely end up saving you in the long run, and give him an opportunity to be well presented everytime he goes out.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Posted a picture of how Annie was with her handler... _(I had to bmp then jpg it again to get it to post)_


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

PaddleAddict said:


> I don't see any reason to criticize the AKC or PCA for "lying" about poodle sizes, that is just ridiculous. We have three sizes here. There is really nothing that is confusing or misleading about that, at least to me.


Three sizes is fine, I don't have a problem with that. They just need to put size limits on them, particularly the standard poodles. Why does the standard poodle have a size between 15 inches (that's TINY) and 28 or so? I mean, that is over a foot difference! LOL


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Most of my standards tend to be on the smaller size, I would prefer a slight bit more height but it has not hurt in the ring. 

My girl Ivy,(Apricot girl) is not even 21 inches, she finished fairly easily. Great front, reach and drive. The hard part for Ivy was that she rubbed off her top knot for close to two years and she had to sit out.

Tru (apricot boy) is 23 inches, he is very powerful with fantastic front, tons of reach and drive.

Quincy (silver boy; Whisperwind breeding) 23 inch boy also finished easy, another very nice front, again good reach and drive.

Xavier (apricot boy) also 23 inches. Decent front, great reach and drive.

As a preference I would like my bitches to be 23 inches and my boys 25 inches. But over the years I have really become a REAL FRONT FREAK!

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I think he may not be winning because now that he is cut out, judges can see he is straight in the stifle, which is not covered by hair anymore in the CC. Especially since Canadian judges like seeing a nice turn of stifle with lovely typey movement, I haven’t heard of size being too much of a factor from what I have been told by some top show breeders.
> 
> Also, having his legs shaved, it is easier to see his slightly hackney movement. I may suggest that you put him in the Scandinavian trim, as this can hide this to a degree and it may help him finish faster, especially since he's showing with Chrystal Murray, one of Canada’s top handlers.


Chrystal is the expert and is quite happy with the way he looks in his CC. Thanks for your advice. The scandinavian is not allowed in the show ring here to my knowledge.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

When taking on a handler to show a dog, you need to follow their advice, after all you are paying for their expertise!

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Chrystal is the expert and is quite happy with the way he looks in his CC. Thanks for your advice. The scandinavian is not allowed in the show ring here to my knowledge.


Really? =/ Bummer. It's a good show clip, wish we could see it here (CA/AM) on the show ring.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

and to completely hijack the thread...

Not really, I do think it fits here. I'm just in from helping a friend who called concerned about her standard. From the symptoms (please note I am not a vet, nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express or played a vet on TV) she described I was pretty concerned he was showing signs of bloating.

I grabbed the Gas X and went over to her house. A couple of hours later I'm back home and he is calm and resting.

He is a parti and is very large. He, like many parti's, is structurally too long and 27 - 28 inches measured at the withers. 

It's my opinion,that breeding such large animals can increase their risk for problems like bloat and possible hip and back issues, but only time will tell if those are also valid concerns.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

NOLA Standards said:


> and to completely hijack the thread...
> 
> Not really, I do think it fits here. I'm just in from helping a friend who called concerned about her standard. From the symptoms (please note I am not a vet, nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express or played a vet on TV) she described I was pretty concerned he was showing signs of bloating.
> 
> ...


I think that that is a reasonable assumption, especially when you consider the prevalence of bloat and other health issues in Great Danes.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I have to agree with Terry, if you're paying (a pretty hefty penny in most cases) for a handler to exhibit your dog they would want to give the best advice possible for their clients because handling really is a game of reputation I think...

I prefer a bigger male (London...Mmmm that boy, and his offspring holy god!!) but I would never take a larger coarse dog over a dog like Tru (who is probably one of my FAVOURITE apricot males ever!) just because of a few inches of height. 
I think Quincy will finish, because he's a nice dog and because he has Chrystal as his handler who stands behind the dogs she shows.

Tabatha, I'm so sorry to hear about your friends dog! Please keep us updated on how he's doing...Bloat is probably one of the most terrifying things about owning standards :/ (among the myriad of other health issues)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

farleysd said:


> Most of my standards tend to be on the smaller size, I would prefer a slight bit more height but it has not hurt in the ring.
> 
> My girl Ivy,(Apricot girl) is not even 21 inches, she finished fairly easily. Great front, reach and drive. But over the years I have really become a REAL FRONT FREAK!
> 
> ...


Wow, impressive, Terry. If my girl gets to 22 inches, maybe I will give it a go, but competition is pretty darned stiff around here.  

I do think these slightly smaller sizes tend to bloat less often. They also have less hip displasia. That isn't to say that a 24/25 inch dog can't be just as healthy, but it takes structurally sound dogs with good chests and rears. 

Now we're really off topic, but if you have a moment, what particularly to you like in a good front?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Really? =/ Bummer. It's a good show clip, wish we could see it here (CA/AM) on the show ring.


I just want to say something and I am sorry to everyone else if it seems I am highjacking the thread or sounding like a whiner. I LOVE my dogs, and as an empty nester they are my surrogate children. I particularly love Quincy partly because he came into my life at a time when bringing him into my family made me feel a connection with my Mother, who died in a tragic car accident. One and a half years after her death, I used some of the money I received from her estate to help take me back to my roots in Poodles with her, knowing how happy it would make her by having a black in my home. He is a part of my breeding program, and thus, a well put together dog with an extremely low COI, from good parents who have had more health testing done than most dogs in Europe, with a disposition that is entirely out of this world- all which was very important to me. He was brought here and will eventually be added to my breeding program to help improve the pigment of my dogs in particular, and help improve what are generally less than perfect coats, chests and tailsets in the reds as a whole. He has seven points toward his championship, so every time someone takes potshots at him, they insult his breeder, every dog he has ever beaten, every judge who has placed him, every handler or other owner who I have ASKED to critique him who liked him. I am aware of his minor faults. I am not blind. No dog, no matter what we may want to think, is perfect.

I did not respond to Outwest's question to me about his size to make my dog vulnerable to being picked apart by someone who is not a show person, by someone who is not a judge, by someone who is not a professional handler, by someone who has never had their hands on him, by someone who was not asked- on a thread that is about the assets/liabilities of mixing two varieties. I did not ask for him to be critiqued, nor have I ever, because he came here to help me do the things for my breeding program that I just mentioned, and I am sure he will. Other's personal opinions of him do not REALLY matter, unless they are being paid to tell me their opinion of him, have been asked for it or have had their hands on him. But, it hurts nevertheless, that in some member's efforts to discredit me, pick at me, insult me- right out of the blue, in a thread that has zero to do with my boy's breeding, background or conformation, someone decides they need to insult him, critique him or put him down in an effort to lessen some people's opinions of me. If you have a problem with me, or if my breeding practices, ethics or perceived lack thereof have harmed you in any way, or have personally caused you grief, please, start a thread and air your grievances. But please...do not tear apart the joy of my heart when your opinion was unsolicited in any way, shape or form just because that gives you the warm fuzzies and because you know it will hurt me.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Tabatha...how is your friend's dog? After experiencing bloat with Thinker and the immense heartache we suffered in the end because of it, my heart goes out to her, and I hope and pray the dog rallied and is fine this morning.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

*ArreauStandardPoodle*:

I feel the same way about my dogs too! When I acquired my first poodle--an oversized black miniature named "Alexander the Great"--I didn't know the first thing about poodles (my experience was with Shepherd, Shelties and mutts). I was searching for a black miniature and found Alex along with a couple other candidates. Anyway, I was thrilled he was going to be bigger than a true miniature and I fell in love with his Sire (also oversized). He's brought me nothing but joy and has been a fabulous companion. I got my second miniature poodle a year later because of him. I wanted him to have a companion. And then my sister got one...then two..and my parents got one. Poodles work their way into your heart. 

I had no idea Standard poodles had so many health issues (as I've been immersed in the world of miniatures), and I'd like to thank everyone for educating me on that point. I've learned a lot from this thread! 

My breeder was forced into retirement this year and I adopted one of her stud dogs (he's retired now), but when the day comes for me to get another poodle, I'll be looking for another oversized miniature.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Wow, impressive, Terry. If my girl gets to 22 inches, maybe I will give it a go, but competition is pretty darned stiff around here.
> 
> I do think these slightly smaller sizes tend to bloat less often. They also have less hip displasia. That isn't to say that a 24/25 inch dog can't be just as healthy, but it takes structurally sound dogs with good chests and rears.
> 
> Now we're really off topic, but if you have a moment, what particularly to you like in a good front?


I don't think that the 24/25 inch poodles are considered huge. IMO, it's the 27 and over standards that run the greater risk of health issues. I see this in those HUGE BYB poodles, they are 28, 29 even 30 inches tall and plagued with various health issues including HD.

24/25 inches really is a moderately sized standard poodle. Not huge by any means.

A good front will have good shoulder layback which will allow for a nice prosternum. Too many standards have flat fronts. I, too, am a sucker for good fronts. I love a good front and a good rear. The balance leads to breathtaking movement.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

digs at dogs who are obviously lovely and from a good background makes me scared to share pics of my less than perfect temperance, who i adore beyond all measure, but came from a woman who had 2 standard akc registered poodles that she bred once.

as to size of standard poodles ... in my ignorance my early contact w/ standards have been towards the bigger sizes. i thought they all were huge like that. it's like for americans bigger is better. i don't want a spoo the size of a great dane~ bigger dogs don't live as long.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Arreau,

Just spoke with her and she is taking him in to the vet this morning to have him checked out. We both think it didn't get too far, but it is a huge concern. I put GASX in my travel kit, tack box, glove box and at a couple of places in the house.

The spectre of bloat terrifies me.
Thanks for checking up on them.

At the risk of this turning into a 49 page thread...

I tried to mentally turn off the criticism in the post and turn it, in my head, to be as positive as possible. No animal is perfect. The animals we have chosen to work with in our breeding programs have flaws that we will be breeding to improve while hopefully keeping the best they have to offer.

And that's that. And the type we choose is our preference. And how they showed (or didn't show) and moved (or chose not to that day) is often just a snapshot in time.

If Annie got herself in a snit at the first of the day I could forget it. One show she got pissy with Michele and Michele had to DRAG her around the ring. Honest to God pull her like a mule because she balked the entire way.

What you think someone would/could - ha! probably DID say about Annie's movement that day!

WHAT EVA 

She could move - and did move beautifully - just some days were better than others! 

One of the toughest things is getting past the cattiness.

Good luck with Quincy. 

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

To piggy-back on Tabatha:

The end result is that no matter what,,,,,,,, These are the dogs that we love, it hurts to hear negitive comments about these "family members" no matter,,,,,,,

Terry
Farleys D Standard
"One must first build a house before painting it!"


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Glad to hear things are looking good for your friend's dog! Bloat is terrifying. I had never seen it until Thinker's two episodes, and as much as that boy meant to me, I could not watch him go through it again.

Thanks. You are right. The cattiness is sickening and we all have our reasons for choosing dogs we like or do not like and who we add or do not add to our breeding program. Thanks for the good wishes. Poor baby...if I had been more faithful, he'd be in a miami now enjoying the summer instead of sweltering in our heat and humidity!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

farleysd said:


> To piggy-back on Tabatha:
> 
> The end result is that no matter what,,,,,,,, These are the dogs that we love, it hurts to hear negitive comments about these "family members" no matter,,,,,,,
> 
> ...


If this was a thread on critiquing and I'd asked for one, well I guess he'd be fair game, but it isn't, and I didn't, so do not know where the heck THAT came from.

Thanks Terry!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> Three sizes is fine, I don't have a problem with that. They just need to put size limits on them, particularly the standard poodles. Why does the standard poodle have a size between 15 inches (that's TINY) and 28 or so? I mean, that is over a foot difference! LOL


If this is how you feel, you should join the PCA and start speaking with people who share your views and work within the club to try to seek change. Obviously, many people don't think this is as problem, but I am sure you could gather the forces, start a committee and work toward possible future change.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

It seems are though the 15"-20" bracket is no mans land. Too large to show in AKC for a mini, too small for a standard.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

outwest said:


> Three sizes is fine, I don't have a problem with that. They just need to put size limits on them, particularly the standard poodles. Why does the standard poodle have a size between 15 inches (that's TINY) and 28 or so? I mean, that is over a foot difference! LOL


Ok, I'm curious... you have a wonderful dog from a kennel that you have posted is somewhat controversial at times, yet there are many people who don't agree with some of the breeding strategies of that same kennel and a few of those people feel strongly enough about it that if it were left up to them.. the rules would change and registration for mini/standard crosses would not be allowed.
I'm guessing that your poodle is not going to get to be 28 inches.. or so. But there are people out there who like bigger poodles.. just as there are people out there who like smaller poodles and people who support mini/standard crosses. 

Why is it that because some people like and live with smaller poodles, there should be a rule against bigger standards.. obviously, some people like bigger standards too. Shouldn't the people who like bigger standards be at liberty to avail themselves to bigger standards.. just as you and other people are able to avail themselves of smaller standards or from breeders who at times are considered controversial (Julie has my full support, by the way).


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> It seems are though the 15"-20" bracket is no mans land. Too large to show in AKC for a mini, too small for a standard.


That is true and is sad.. there are a lot of awesome poodles out there who fall into that size range.. maybe that's something that could be changed. Instead of working for eliminating or banning different sizes... opening things up for more poodle lovers and their poodles! Make way.....


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> That is true and is sad.. there are a lot of awesome poodles out there who fall into that size range.. maybe that's something that could be changed. Instead of working for eliminating or banning different sizes... opening things up for more poodle lovers and their poodles! Make way.....


15 1/2 to 20 inches isn't "technically" too small to show... it is allowed by the standard, judging practices/preferences would have to change. Maybe those who would like to see this size be shown successfully should become judges and put dogs of this size up in the ring.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> IMO, it's the 27 and over standards that run the greater risk of health issues. I see this in those HUGE BYB poodles, they are 28, 29 even 30 inches tall and plagued with various health issues including HD.


Chocolate Millie, your post got me thinking and my reply is general, it is not directed at you, I merely included it as a starting reference point for my thoughts.. which are mine and mine alone.... but I'm hoping that others will think abit about what I'm saying and as such I chose to include this part of your post. My apologies in advance.. am not trying to be mean to you.. the post just helped to give my thoughts direction.


Unfortunately, standard poodles on the whole are plagued by health issues. There isn't a line without them. IF someone tells you there is they are either lying, showing their ignorance or.. telling the truth??? if you encounter the later please share their contact info with me ASAP. I've yet to see such a line. As for the larger standards being more at risk for certain health issues, it makes sense that it's so, but quite honestly in years spent tracking health issues what I tend to find is certain lines with more issues, rather then certain sizes. That is what I have FOUND. Logically, it does make sense that larger standards would be more at risk for certain health issues, joint disorders of all types being one of them. 

So how do we handle our health issues? Do we condemn all breeding of standards over a certain height, or DQ them from showing, decline registration? Do we do that based on a prevalence of health issues? If so, do we then go on to place restrictions on other standards who have high health risk pedigrees? Do we then refuse to register lines that are at high risk for Addison's, epilepsy or bloat? Guess it would prevent a whole lot of people from having broken hearts and a whole lot of dogs from suffering from health issues, so maybe enforcing strict size limits and as well as whatever other criteria we choose that may help identify lines at high risk for health issues is a good place to start....

But I have an even better suggestion. Instead of striking an attitude of intolerance to anything but the poodle we personally own.. how about we all REALLY continue to promote the use of PHR. Whenever anyone has a poodle with a health issue, whenever one encounters someone else having a poodle with a health issue.. when one goes to the veterinarian.. where ever there may be contact with poodles with health issues, please educate people! As more and more health issues are posted on PHR it opens the door to people being able to make wise choices in their poodles. The more information on health issues, the easier it is for the researchers to do studies.. which over the long term may include genetic testing for some of these issues.

Instead of regulating, try educating. Makes for a nicer world for everyone.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

But how often do you hear.. underheight/oversized (depending on whether or not we are talking big mini, small standard). What's interesting to me is.. that according to the standard standard.. with all other factors being equal, diminuitiveness is the deciding factor....


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*'Royal' standards..*

We just lost our wonderful oversize standard boy in March..he was HUGE, weighing in at 95 lbs, and stood at around 30"- he died this March, just shy of his 12th birthday; and maybe we were just lucky but apart from one incidence of toe cancer, he never was ill a day in his life, and had no congenital health problems that we were aware of.
He was a fabulous dog, and a great ambassador for the breed, as he converted many people who thought that poodles were 'frou frou.. men esp, were so impressed by Zack's intelligence and stature; of course I didn't explain to people that he didn't conform to the breed standard in the slightest- they did't need to know that at all. In fact- he'd be laughed out of the showring!
I bought him( because i didn't know better then) from a BYB just down the road from us, but surprisingly, they aquired both his dam and bitch from Ilse König of Shangri-la Kennels, who was a 'star' poodle breeder in her day.
Anyway- I just wanted to mention that not every super size standard is condemned to suffer life long health effects.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> So how do we handle our health issues? Do we condemn all breeding of standards over a certain height, or DQ them from showing, decline registration? Do we do that based on a prevalence of health issues? If so, do we then go on to place restrictions on other standards who have high health risk pedigrees? Do we then refuse to register lines that are at high risk for Addison's, epilepsy or bloat? Guess it would prevent a whole lot of people from having broken hearts and a whole lot of dogs from suffering from health issues, so maybe enforcing strict size limits and as well as whatever other criteria we choose that may help identify lines at high risk for health issues is a good place to start....


Just to clarify this part of my post: It was said tongue in cheek. There are so many health issues in all sizes that my point was that if we started a campaign to eliminate health issues by eliminating poodles with certain traits and every time we were successful, we chose another elimination criteria that soon.. we wouldn't have any poodles left! I forget that sarcasm just doesn't come across effectively in black and white.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The only reason I said the larger standards (arbitrarily 27 inches and over) could have greater health issues is because a) the larger the breed the greater the shorter the life span, in general, from what I have seen in my own experience.

Other than that, I personally do not think that the current standard needs to be changed. I agree, educate rather than regulate. If we educate breeders and owners, then perhaps a size cap isn't needed. Not to mention, a size cap won't prevent the BYBs from churning out those massive spoos anyway.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I emailed the representative of the PCA that deals with the standard for the poodles politely asking the question regarding size limits on what is considered a showable standard, the reasonings for leaving them so open and why 15-20 inch standards were not shown in AKC since they are correct to the standard. Here is the response. Unfortunately, the questions were sidestepped and not answered, rather just reiterating what was already in my email about countries. The reply did not come from the person I asked, but from their publicity department, which makes me think this is a common concern. At least they answered. It seems sticking to the status quo is the more comfortable for them? 


Dear _______,
Many countries, including England, Canada and Australia, unlike FCI countries that break down Poodles into four sizes, share our guidelines requiring three sizes. England and Australia limit toys at 11". Canada's breed standard, like ours, limits toys to a maximum of 10". 

I understand and share your concern that the standard, as presently written, is difficult to enforce, but the majority of PCA's Board of Directors is reluctant to make any changes to the present standard, which was last revised in 1984.
They do not understand that many people share your concerns about this subject,
Regards,
_____________
PCA Publicity Chairman.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Maybe the answer would be to get a bunch of people with little "standard poodles" to all enter AKC shows en mass. LOL. Politics is so annoying.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

_"Maybe the answer would be to get a bunch of people with little "standard poodles" to all enter AKC shows en mass. LOL. Politics is so annoying."_

Which brings the thread full circle.

Breeding miniatures to standards results in less than stellar conformation. 
The problem is not so much the size but the conformation flaws. We've provided illustrations of our smaller sized standards that win/have achieved their AKC Championships.

A quality smaller standard/"moyen" sized line could be developed, but it does/would/will require an investment of years and in quality foundation animals.

And, the breeders willing to sacrifice to do it right are going (breeding color is in my head here so I'm drawing a correlation here) to be few and far between.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Hautepoo (Apr 14, 2011)

I don't believe it is being said they continually do it, just that they did it once. And it can be done well enough to compete with breedings in other lands?


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

******


NOLA Standards said:


> _"Maybe the answer would be to get a bunch of people with little "standard poodles" to all enter AKC shows en mass. LOL. Politics is so annoying."_
> 
> If no one enters them, they can't possible place or win. If one wants to see them in the ring.. well it might be a good idea to do something to get them there.
> 
> ...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

yaddaluv, I have not commented on some of the other posters because it seems so futile to get others to see what is so clear to me. I did want to thank you for noting that some breeders are taking health into consideration to a greater degree and in the end, my gut feeling is that it is working. 

You are absolutely correct that it takes several generations of careful breeding to get to a point where you have hopefully melded health, temperment, intelligence, color and conformation. That is a very tall order. The first couple of generations are funny looking, no one is going to deny that. It takes about 15 years and a commited person to see it through all those test breedings, but it is my belief that the end product is worth it. Some breeders of standards are getting pretty darned close now, bringing up the size into what is a vigorous, athletic, smart and healthy dog that doesn't have half bad conformation, either. 

Of COURSE, no dog is perfect and there WILL be bumps along the road. They WILL get an occasional throw back and an occasional funny looking dog for on up to 20 years afterwards. That is why breeding the sizes willy nilly over and over is such a bad, bad idea. To do it a few times to get the genes in there, to do it with a purpose, knowledge of genetics and commitment to the breed can not be looked down upon. YOU don't have to do it, but let others try. It can only help your lines down the road, honestly. 

Look at the red standards and how far they have come and how good many of them look. Those dogs were not bred over and over mini to standard. They did it a couple of times. They are almost there- just lighten up the faces a little and deepen the chests on some of them and they'll have it. 

PS:
No bobble head here.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

But why not attain genetic diversity without blending the two varieties? It is not difficult. Well, a little more difficult, as it involves diligent work from the breeder, breeding to a dog bred outside the United States OR dutifully researching pedigrees within the United States to find an outcross. I see breeding to a mini for diversity as pure laziness.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I can understand your feelings on it, I really can. It messes with conformation and even personality to an huge degree and it takes years to get it back. Why hassle with all of that? I get that. 

You can obtain genetic diversity without breeding the varieties together, but the genetic diversity you get is not the completely divergent genetics that you get by going way, way back to when the varieties first split up- a couple hundred years?? All varieties desended from the same dogs way back when. 

Almost all lines of standards have hip issues or skin issues or knee issues or eye issues thrown in there no matter where they come from. Rather than compounding each varieties problems, you cut the likelyhood in half at that point. Breeding to foreign dogs and other dogs you have researched thoroughly is good enough for most people and is far more than many breeders do, but some people want it all. 

Some breeders are breeding to foreign dogs with slightly different conformation and a mini or two and American dogs and agility dogs to boot. You should never do it if a person is not completely knowledgeable about the way genetics work because it can be a total disaster. 

It would not be a good proposition for anyone who is not so immersed in it that they are not willing to basically spend their life time doing it. It is absolutely understandable that most people would never want to hassle it! But please give those that are trying it some credit for the effort. After the dust has settled, many of you may change your tune and thank those who did do it. 

How is it lazy to realize you are commiting yourself to minimum of 15 years of breeding to get back your conformation? That seems far from lazy to me. I certainly would not want to do it if I was breeding standard poodles, that's for sure. I am quite happy to take advantage of the effort of others, though, and get one of the near end products from someone who did do it. I predict in 5 more years you will see some winning AKC dogs from these lines. The size is almost there.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

YaddaLuv - thanks for the clarification on some points. I thought I'd be redundant pointing out again that smaller standard poodles have been in the conformation ring and achieved their Ch (Annie is quite small and Terry's girls and Xavier and I think a couple other were commented on) but I see it might have gotten lost in the thread.

And, also, that there ARE (you mentioned German Kleins) quality foundation animals. This is what I ment when I said "investment required"...

As for improving the health...again that would be the goal - but then the integrity of breeders (people!) comes into play. And I don't mean to start another thread by bringing up breeders hush hushing issues and that research is only as good as the material available.

IDEALLY, I agree. 

I love the red standard poodle and without a mini x standard cross we wouldn't have it today.

IDEALLY, breeders would have continued to breed for health and structural and temperment improvement.

But they didn't. (There are very few exceptions)

They bred for coat color. 

IDEALLY, a smaller standard line would be developed. And eventually, by a few very dedicated pple, it might exist. 

But how many?? breeders are going to jump into the market and take shortcuts at every investment point (back to the investment and time required and the tough decisions required when encountering health issues).

Perhaps I should have more faith in breeders - certainly expecting the general puppy buying public to understand what needs to happen and be critical of their selections is asking too much - but I find that my expectations are just not that high.


Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

But why not attain genetic diversity without blending the two varieties?


There are not many if any no or low Wycliffe Standard Poodles left in the world, many have scoured the world many times over to no avail. 

DLA studies are ongoing, I for one would like a different answer than breed in Mini but short of opening the stud books there may not be another choice if we want to have Standards. We are very lucky that we have the option of using the Mini variety. I would choose Mini over opening the stud books. Most Standards already have Mini in the pedigree's as well as toys.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Apres Argent said:


> But why not attain genetic diversity without blending the two varieties?
> 
> 
> There are not many if any no or low Wycliffe Standard Poodles left in the world, many have scoured the world many times over to no avail.
> ...


Dumb question...what is opening the stud books?


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

Allowing a different breed. 
The Dalmatian back cross has been accepted back into AKC.
They were bred to pointers to eliminate a serious kidney problem that had affected the whole breed.

About The Dalmatian Heritage Project - Dalmatian Puppy Breeding & Adoption - Hayward, California


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

Pretty sure my Harley counts as a Moyen, as he is 18" high, which is around the average size of the Moyen type.. whereas most standards are about 21" I believe??


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, Harley is a Moyen. There are Moyen (medium) poodles here, too, but they are called 'small standards'- silly, isn't it? Standards are defined as anything over 15 inches, but you won't see anything that small in the AKC shows, although lots of people own that size. They just aren't shown. Full size standards in the US are usually 22-27inches on average, although 22 is still considered a little bit small.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Just to clarify a point about COI. COI figures go back at most 12 generations and usually just 10 generations. If you took almost any standard and went back, say, 20/30/40 generations your COI would go up. The people who chose to throw the mini in there, foreign dogs and other diverse dogs different backgrounds have lower COI when you go back further. 

I would think all of you breeders would eventually want to take advantage of some of these lines that are nearing standard poodle quality once again. These dogs are very healthy. 

And as someone else said, be very thankful that the poodle has the mini to fall back on to help things out. Other breeds are no so lucky.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Ah crumb! I did a huge reply to this yesterday and it got sucked into cyberspace somewhere. Hate it when that happens.



outwest said:


> I can understand your feelings on it, I really can. It messes with conformation and even personality to an huge degree and it takes years to get it back. Why hassle with all of that? I get that.
> 
> You can obtain genetic diversity without breeding the varieties together, but the genetic diversity you get is not the completely divergent genetics that you get by going way, way back to when the varieties first split up- a couple hundred years?? All varieties desended from the same dogs way back when.
> 
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

outwest said:


> Yes, Harley is a Moyen. There are Moyen (medium) poodles here, too, but they are called 'small standards'- silly, isn't it? Standards are defined as anything over 15 inches, but you won't see anything that small in the AKC shows, although lots of people own that size. They just aren't shown. Full size standards in the US are usually 22-27inches on average, although 22 is still considered a little bit small.



The American Kennel Club as three sizes in the USA:

Toy
Miniature
Standard

The AKC does not have any categories or titles for "small standards" or "full size standards", nor does it have "caniche moyens" or "kleins".. etc. It has clearly identified heights for the three sizes, with no upper limit on the standard size, but with the stipulation that in shows that if all other factors are equal, diminuitiveness is the deciding factor. I've seen threads on this forum of Horrors! (wide eyed, shock).. someone is selling Royals, or teacups, those are merely descriptive terms, not official sizes. Sometimes these terms are used as a foundation for marketing and puppy sales, but they aren't the official terms. Caniche moyen, small standard, giant, klein.... guess what.. same thing. They are just merely descriptive terms and they can be a bit confusing as there are so many. I have a 21 inch girl. I also have a 27 inch girl.. they are standards, plain and simple.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

@Outwest-- I love your passion and your dedication to the cause of mini-standard crosses. I love your enthusiasm and willingness to support something that you believe in and that is exactly as it should be. But.. passion and enthusiasm attract attention and followers and that can be a good thing.. or a bad thing. I recently encountered a couple of breeders, yes, they were breeding and that makes them breeders, who didn't know how to read a pedigree. They had some beautiful poodles and they wanted to make more beautiful poodles... and they were doing just that (and still are). Is it necessary to read a pedigree in order to breed poodles? Nope. But when we are looking at the long term well being of the breed.. well there might be some good reasons to learn how to read/understand a pedigree and the many implications and risks there in. Both of those breeders were getting information from chat groups... just like this. And that.. is the reason that I have been a bit harsher and more defensive then I probably should have been in my responses to you. You have this terrific passion and naiveity that I not only admire, I wish, sincerely with, I still had. But with that, you are passing on great information, with these little snippits of misinformation. Doesn't mean that you're doing anything wrong.. just that you haven't been doing it for a long time and that you are still learning.


outwest said:


> Just to clarify a point about COI. COI figures go back at most 12 generationsUh.. where on earth did that come from? COI's are very complicated mathmatical calculations which are done on computers because they are so lengthy. A COI can be calculated on as many generations as one has the computer power and memory and time to put out. I look at 15 generations with my dogs/ potential planned breedings. I'm certainly not the least bit unique in that. and usually just 10 generationsQuite often, two or three generations. It just depends on what random number of generations the calculator is programmed to give results for. There isn't a "standardized" number of generations. So a key thing to keep in mind is that when someone is promoting a COI.. to find out how many generations that COI was calculated on.. If you took almost any standard and went back, say, 20/30/40 generations your COI would go up.Absolutely, 100% true and a concept that many people don't understand. The people who chose to throw the mini in there, foreign dogs and other diverse dogs different backgrounds have lower COI when you go back further. Not quite so right, if you breed a miniature to a standard and they have no common linage for 10 generations and you run a 10 generation COI on them, you are going to get a COI of 0%-- no inbreeding. Now logically, we know that really isn't so. Why? Because our poodles came from the same ancestors many years ago. Ok, so if we go back 20, 30, 40 generations (even 20 generations is dealing with such high numbers of ancestors that it is totally extremely mind boggling to me) then guess what.. proves your point that the more generations the higher the COI. Sooner or later, you will encounter relatives in common.. and there goes that COI.. starts edging up. But if one wants to continue their breeding program with the mini/stan lines, guess what, the very next generation if bred back to a standard (unless someone has done a super job of finding minimally related dogs), that COI is going to start to increase progressively again. Depending on the breeding strategies used, that COI can easily be into the double digits within three generations, six years. Yet again the reminder, low COI's do not ensure a healthy poodle.
> 
> I would think all of you breeders would eventually want to take advantage of some of these lines that are nearing standard poodle quality once again. There are breeders doing that, but I think it's mighty presumptious for someone who has absolutely nothing at risk, who is not a breeder, who is not going to be the one to deal with the consequences, to think that "all" breeders would want to jump on the same bandwagon. Again, all breeders doing the same thing.. is detrimental to the breed.These dogs are very healthy. Bull****. There are mini'-standard crosses out there with heart issues, with eye issues, with hip and joint and bite issues and autoimmune issues. Promoting them as entirely healthy is not fair to other people who may come along and read this. Again, passion, enthusiasm attracts interests and unfortunately, too few people actually, really and truly do their research. So how healthy are mini/standard crosses? Heck if I know. but I do know of or have personally met individual poodles, mini/standard crosses who are affected with all of the issues I listed above. I also know that there are breeders doing everything they can to hide those issues because they have just discovered this wonderful gravy train. People LIKE mini/stan crosses. They make great apartment dogs, they fit easily in cars for travel, they are easy to pick up and carry and they don't break your legs when they sit on your lap. Then they are being promoted as having improved health over standards or miniatures because of the genetic diversity. Does THAT happen to ring a bell at all? Uhm.. that's just happens to be one of the points that doodle breeders promote as a good point of doodles (genetic diversity = healthier dogs). F1 (please let's not debate the F1 designation, I'm using it here only for ease of identifying the number of generations) doodle offspring are more genetically diverse then mini x mini poodle breedings, mini x standard poodle breedings and standard x standard breedings. If I were to go out and get an F1 doodle, would I have a dog who would be guaranteed healthy? Nope. So why then, would a mini x standard cross, which has less genetic diversity then an FI doodle ensure health based on the presumption of genetic diversity? Seriously, think about it. If I bred a poodle to a labrador, there will be genetics in common because they are domestic dogs. If I breed a miniature poodle to a standard poodle, there will be MORE genetics in common because they are not only domestic dogs, but because they come from related ancestors.
> 
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Thank you outwest!*

I must give a huge thanks to Outwest for several things.

For that passion and enthusiasm that I admire and so wish I had!

For the gumption to speak up and share ideas and opinions with the wellbeing of our poodles at heart!

For standing up for what you feel is right.

If all poodle people did this, regardless of what beliefs, what breeding practices and how tall their poodles are (LOL!) can we all imagine what a better place we could make for our poodles?

Thank you Outwest!


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*Thank YOU!*

And a big thank you to you, Yadda, for taking the time to post this truly enlightening thread. You are a fantastic resource, and as passionate in your love for the breed as is Outwest.I know one thing- for my next standard, health will trump looks, and every prospective puppy will get a thorough examination of its genes by a pedigree guru.
I am very hopeful that we might be on the proper trail already. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

PaPoodles, I do think the standard is getting healthier again! 

Yadda poodle, thanks for correcting any misinformation I gave. The COIs I have seen have all been 10 generations, at most 12 generations. I have never seen a breeder give 15 generations COIs. All COIs are listed with the number of generations and done by computers. Low COIs do not guarantee healthy dogs, true, but I do believe it increases the chances of good health. The best chance of good health is health testing of all breeding dogs and not breeding a dog that isn't up to snuff, no matter what they look like. 

I do understand the danger of proporting that a standard/mini cross is okay. What I was saying was that throwing one in there is not a terrible evil if done for the right reasons and with a long term plan and goal. If there is NO plan, I too believe it is wrong. 

You should not breed a mini to a standard to reduce the size, that's just dumb. The first couple generations after a standard/mini are very weird looking, disproportionate dogs. It takes years to get the proportions back. I don't think anyone wants that, do they? If I insinuated that was a good idea, I am sorry about that. yick. If people are wanting a medium sized poodle there are good ways to breed a medium sized poodle without doing a standard/mini cross- just breed two medium poodles together. I do have a dog that did have a mini in it a number of generations ago, but she is proportional. I wouldn't want a dog that had short legs and a large head. 

It is easy to become jaded when you are talking about trying to protect the poodle breed in general when everywhere you turn somebody is breeding mutts for more money. I just can't worry about that. It would drive me nuts. 

I am sorry you are jaded. That happens from years and years around all the politics that surround poodle breeders and the shows. I got out of AKC shows with my boxers because I couldn't deal with it all. It's no wonder so many good people run and hide. Not all of us are as tough as some others. 

I, for one, just want a poodle to hang out with plus I enjoy looking at a handsome beast. Alas, I am jaded, too, from having a show line standard with health issues her whole life. I probably went overboard with looking for health first, but we'll see. 

Here: 
Breeding a standard to a mini should never be done without realizing that you have set yourself up for 15 years of conformation corrections. Who is going to take all those puppies and spay them inbetween? People who do it must have a particular thing in mind, like red standards or health concerns or it is just a complete sham.

I hope I cleared up my feelings on it a bit.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

yaddapoodles said:
"I guess what I'm interpreting out of this post is that only breeders who are brave enough, committed enough to do mini-standard crosses are the only ones who really want it all and are willing to commit their life times to it and that they should be given credit for that. I can say that I too, hope that when the dust has settled, there is a reason to thank those who have, just as with other breeding strategies, it could go all go wrong. But in the meantime, there are a whole lot of breeders out there, who deserve respect and credit for sticking to their guns.."

me:
Heavens, that's not what I meant at all. In this one public forum, many people call people who have done this horrible, unethical breeders. I was just trying to make the point that some may not be so horrible and may have done it for a good reason. I do believe there is room for everyone and everyone should do what they feel comfortable with. I, personally, would not want to do it if I was breeding poodles. Too much to mess with. 

As far as health- most diseases that effect standards are recessive genes, which means you must have both sire AND dam with the gene in order to express it. That is why the likelihood of having the disease is reduced. DNA samples should also be submitted. That takes dedication.

I think I am done talking about this now. What goofy thing did your poodle do lately?


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## A'n'A Mom (Dec 4, 2010)

outwest
As far as health- most diseases that effect standards are recessive genes said:


> Outwest, I'm sorry but I must object to statements like this....which are just plain incorrect. In my opinion, there is almost nothing that can be said with absolute certainty about the health and breeding of Standard Poodles.
> 
> The most recent research projects are showing many of the most pesky health problems are, in fact, polygenic, not recessive. There is also the very real possibility that there is an 'environmental trigger' to many of them. We just don't know. It's so very much more complicated than simple recessives.
> 
> ...


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