# Reputable Miniature Poodle Breeders, Calm Oversize



## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Hello,

I just posted a question in the new member area looking for sturdier standard poodles, being a big dog person. 

I've now realized two things that quickly changed my focus for a future dog (researching for down the road): 
-my home has a 25lb weight limit for pets (yikes for a big dog lover)
-sturdier poodles can sometimes be short-legged and long-bodied, which is definitely not good (like I said, I'm new to this)

After searching threads, I thought I'd pose this new question for the experts here: 
What are the most reputable *miniature* breeders you recommend with *calmer* dispositions and more likely to go *oversized* (25lbs)? I would like to go to the maximum weight of what I can, and more like a small standard in appearance. 

I live in Ontario but would be willing to drive into other provinces and states. I like Karbit Poodles' reputation and have seen a Saskatchewan breeder with minis that look like small standards, but would like to do a bit more research (I have the time since this is for later down the road).


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I can't quite help there, but generally would say that minis do not have "calm" dispositions as one of their top listed attributes. They tend to be pretty busy I think. I also have known mins that weighed almost as much as Lily (around 35 pounds), but they were fed generous chunks of liverwurst as training rewards.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I agree with Catherine. Minis are the most energetic of all sizes. 

By the way long bodied and short legged dogs would only happen if you went with a backyard breeder, or puppy mill. Reputable, knowledgeable breeders don’t have those puppies in their lines. The poodle is a very elegant, distinguished breed. Even from working lines, they remain elegant dogs.

From what you wrote in other posts too, it seems to me that you don’t really like the true poodle look, which makes me fear you will buy from less desirable breeders to get the off-standard look you like. And with that comes health, socialization and temperament problems.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Dechi said:


> I agree with Catherine. Minis are the most energetic of all sizes.
> 
> From what you wrote in other posts too, it seems to me that you don’t really like the true poodle look, which makes me fear you will buy from less desirable breeders to get the off-standard look you like. And with that comes health, socialization and temperament problems.


I could see how it could come across that way, but my tastes have been evolving pretty quickly as I've now begun looking at more reputable breeders with pictures of show poodles which I always shied away from. I'm coming from a background where I believed the hybrid vigor myth and my family mixed pup was picked up from a farm. 

A photo of a BYB poodle standing beside a well-bred poodle posted somewhere in this forum was an eye-opener to the difference between them, and the beauty of the well-bred poodle.

My previous questions/posts had a lot to do with the face shape, as I've noticed variation in facial shape among well-bred poodles, with some having thinner faces with closer-set eyes, and some with a wider muzzle and wider-set eyes. It was the latter look I was searching for, but now I've realized it's more important to get a healthy dog from a reputable breeder than anything. My original desire before joining the forum was to find a "medium-sized red teddy bear dog." Not so anymore! 

So I'm now removing the bookmarked pages of poodle and doodle breeders I was looking at originally (gasp!) and now looking for only the most recommended breeders whose passion are bettering the breed with full health testing, show titles, etc. A big leap for me, and still learning


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

lily cd re said:


> I can't quite help there, but generally would say that minis do not have "calm" dispositions as one of their top listed attributes. They tend to be pretty busy I think. I also have known mins that weighed almost as much as Lily (around 35 pounds), but they were fed generous chunks of liverwurst as training rewards.


Thanks for the input. I had heard that, but with several people in other threads piping in that their spoo was more hyper than their mpoos and to look for lines bred for calmer dispositions for say therapy work as opposed to agility.

Are there any miniature poodle breeders you would recommend off-the-bat as breeding the best, and I could go from there?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Depending on how far you want to travel, Eriand and Songbird come to mind. They are both in the Northeast. I also having now thought a bit more about you comments on temperament have to say you really just want a balanced pup, not a quiet or a bold one. Extremes of anything are not great, balance can be shaped in almost any direction you need it to go. My poodles are both confident but balanced. For Lily balanced came from training for it from a pretty hyper puppy, with Javelin the confidence has always just been there. He can be pushy, but being a boy he also knows when to knock it off.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thank you so much, I'll look into those two!

I appreciate your helpful input as well, good info on your two beautiful dogs.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

You might want to be more definite on what constitutes calm and what constitutes energetic. Having owned an Irish Setter and a border collie, most other dogs seem calm to me. How much exercise do you want to give the dog? Time wise and effort on your part wise. This is what you want to talk to a breeder about. 

I rescue Boston terriers and they tend to be more terrier or more bulldog. The bulldog type is more easy going and requires less exercise. The terrier is more active and alert. However, the terrier types are calm compared to my working border collie.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

NaturalPoodle said:


> I could see how it could come across that way, but my tastes have been evolving pretty quickly as I've now begun looking at more reputable breeders with pictures of show poodles which I always shied away from. I'm coming from a background where I believed the hybrid vigor myth and my family mixed pup was picked up from a farm.
> 
> A photo of a BYB poodle standing beside a well-bred poodle posted somewhere in this forum was an eye-opener to the difference between them, and the beauty of the well-bred poodle.
> 
> ...


That is music to my years, I’m glad you’re researching this so carefully !


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Bucking the trend here . I'm on minis number six & seven. I'm always surprised and puzzled by the descriptions of minis being the most busy or energetic. It may be that I haven't seen any of mine that way since I've never had any poodles except minis, so I have nothing to compare. 

When you say calmer disposition, what is your mental picture of that? Is it more physical activity, like no off switch, or yappy, fussy, demanding your mental energy to keep them calm?

Were mine busy and energetic as puppies? Yes, and then they napped then woke up and went right back to puppyish behaviors. I currently have two brothers just over two years old, so, also yes, they will instigate each other, and then they nap . 

Do they bark at people and dogs walking on the sidewalk in front of the house? Yes, my fault for not being a good trainer, then they lay down and nap .

Do they race around the back yard chasing each other? Yes, and then they come in and nap .

I take them both for a walk daily, almost a mile. They come home energized and play for about half an hour, then they nap .

It may be that what I'm describing is not at all what you're thinking of when you say calm. It's also true that my last two sets of poodles were littermates we took together, or with the second and third, a puppy added when we already had an older dog. It's very true that they have expended much of their energy on each other, lol. I would describe them all as alert and interested, active but with an off switch. 

Finding a mini that will approach the higher end of size is likely to be your hardest task. Mine have run the gamut from eleven inches to fourteen at the shoulder. Sass was my heaviest at a bit over twenty lbs, in the most treat filled portion of her life. She dropped to about seventeen when the treats diminished. 

They've been solid, sturdy little dogs, not delicate to where you might be afraid of squashing them. One of our members has an oversize mini. I hope she can pop in to give you some input.

Good luck!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thank you so much for your input everyone, much appreciated. I'm doing my homework because person/dog fit is so important, and doesn't happen as often as it should out there.

When I say "calm" my background is larger dogs, having had two labrador mixes in the past. One was a Lab/Husky mix, the other perhaps German Shepherd and Labrador. I found both of them perfect in terms of energy levels. The lab/husky mix would bounce through the fields like a deer, have fun and come along on hikes, etc (with of course daily walks). But if he didn't get that level of exercise that day he would be happy to chill with us, or on his own. I liked that he was both social and independent. 

I have limited experience with smaller dogs but have found them sometimes to be a bit more *wired*, like they've had too much caffeine ;-) Someone on this forum used the "yappy and snappy" description, and I would want to avoid that at all costs. I think breeding and rearing has a much to do with this, as well, so I'd like to know more about mpoos.

My ideal dog would be intelligent, goofy, non-shedding (!), take 1 mile walks with me, do obedience training, and want to relax too without needing my attention every moment of the day, or otherwise bounce off the walls if he missed that perfect stimulation. Perhaps that is just a balanced dog?


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Unfortunately I'm a bit limited in my scope, as I would want a non-shedding dog and now have the 25lb weight limit, which I'd want to reach the maximum of ideally. I haven't seen any other non-shedding medium/small dogs out there that I like quite as much.

I also love that miniature poodles can look much larger than their weight because of their long-legged frames. I saw a photo of a perhaps 25lb poodle sitting beside small golden retriever of 60 pounds and there was not the height difference you would expect there!


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Dechi said:


> NaturalPoodle said:
> 
> 
> > I could see how it could come across that way, but my tastes have been evolving pretty quickly as I've now begun looking at more reputable breeders with pictures of show poodles which I always shied away from. I'm coming from a background where I believed the hybrid vigor myth and my family mixed pup was picked up from a farm.
> ...


Same! Very cool naturalpoodle, I hope you are able to find the perfect match for you!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

One thought, do you know how strict they are on that 25 lb rule? I've known a lot of complexes that have rules like this, but they don't weigh dogs and plenty of people get away with larger dogs. It's quite possible that you could find a small standard female around 30 lbs. When it comes to oversize minis, you'll be looking for parents that are in the upper limit for minis, or for a dog that was held back for show but grew too large.

In terms of temperament, I think it depends. My pup's parents were both different in that his mother is very laid back and his father is more on the busy side. The breeder paired pups with owners with consideration to what energy level they could handle. I got the busy pup which is what I wanted, but I still don't think he'll be what I would consider hyper. I was also looking for a larger mini, though my pup was one of the smaller ones in the litter. Temperament came before size of course. We'll see how big he grows. I have no doubt he'll be on the larger side for a mini at least, given the size of his parents.


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

NaturalPoodle said:


> Thank you so much for your input everyone, much appreciated. I'm doing my homework because person/dog fit is so important, and doesn't happen as often as it should out there.
> 
> When I say "calm" my background is larger dogs, having had two labrador mixes in the past. One was a Lab/Husky mix, the other perhaps German Shepherd and Labrador. I found both of them perfect in terms of energy levels. The lab/husky mix would bounce through the fields like a deer, have fun and come along on hikes, etc (with of course daily walks). But if he didn't get that level of exercise that day he would be happy to chill with us, or on his own. I liked that he was both social and independent.
> 
> ...


So my dad was a German Sheperd breeder and I am quite familiar with their temperament. I come from Gun dogs - Pointer, Vizsla and while my Mini does not have the chillness any of those larger breeds have - he is very far from a yappy, little lap dog. He is very small for a mini - actually skinny is more apt, since he is 14 inches tall but weighs only 12 pounds. He is work driven - give him a job and he is very happy. He is not barky - but will alert to people on our property. But will calm when I tell him shush. He is friendly towards all but not cuddly with strangers (he will "put up" with it as part of his training - I train all my dogs to endure hugs if necessary). He is definitely at least as intelligent as any GSD, Gun Dog or Border Collie. He loves playing herding and tries (with his tiny body!) to control 3 soccer balls at once. He is very personable - he is able to get each person to do his bidding - in a different way. He is definitely comical and has a sense of humor (not all dogs do). He has an off switch due to lots of chill out training, but he is keenly aware of what everyone in the house is up to. He does not need constant attention but likes to be included. 1 mile walk would be a minimum - he is pretty happy with walk plus games in the yard and that's enough for him. He is not as inexhaustible as gun dogs are. If I have a busy day and he does not get his walks - I throw the ball for a few minutes and he is more than happy. If we had to move to the city it would not be a big problem. Other than non-shedding I find his best two attributes to be that he is generally chill with all other dogs - he avoids those that are confrontational and he will say a quick hallo to others but he does not get worked up. The other thing is that he learns new commands and tricks exceedingly fast (usually a couple of repeats is all it takes) so it is fun to play games with him. I originally wanted a larger dog (having had larger dogs always) but find his size incredibly convenient. He has and could travel by plane - right at my feet - and that opens up so many possibilities.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> One thought, do you know how strict they are on that 25 lb rule? I've known a lot of complexes that have rules like this, but they don't weigh dogs and plenty of people get away with larger dogs. It's quite possible that you could find a small standard female around 30 lbs. When it comes to oversize minis, you'll be looking for parents that are in the upper limit for minis, or for a dog that was held back for show but grew too large.


I'd have to look into that, but I received that response "maximum 25lbs" from the condo corporation. I was kind of crushed because I've heard of spoos at 30lbs and just above - how those 5 pounds make a difference! 

This tends to be a very tight-ruled condo and I'd want to avoid the risk of a pup outgrowing the size, but I could ask around a bit. An adult small spoo would be less variable of course.

Thanks for the temperament input too!


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Moni said:


> So my dad was a German Sheperd breeder and I am quite familiar with their temperament...


I love hearing the daily ins and outs - thank you!

So far I don't mind at all what I hear about what it is like to own a miniature. If anything I'm kinda loving them more  There is definitely a difference between hyper and yappy, and a dog that is energetic but balanced, as was pointed out earlier.

I certainly wouldn't want a couch potato dog.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i might have missed it, but did you say where you are located? we used to have an active member from the west coast, leullman, who owned an oversize mini from noriko in california. might be worth looking through his posts if you are on the west coast or thereabouts. his boy was a pretty nice dog.


oops. sorry. i just realized you are in ontario. minnesota seems to be a gathering place for breeders of minis. check out horizon, absolute, and amity kennels. i believe they all collaborate to some degree, too.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd generally describe the poodle personality as "accommodating" with a hint of "what's in it for me?" lol. There are temperament differences and extremes, as with all living things, but generally, poodle does as their people do.

Many here use the Volhard testing, or the breeder may, to assess a puppy's temperament. I wasn't aware of that tool when I got any of my pups. I relied on my experiences with previous dogs, decided on traits I wanted, then met with the pups, their family, and the breeders for several hours to observe and interact. 

The breeder you select should be able to help you in selecting for the traits you want.

I think Karbit was mentioned in another thread. It may be worth contacting them to get some input, if not a pup. They're breeding klein poodles but I'm not sure if that size will generally keep to under 25lbs.

http://karbitpoodles.com/home.html


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

I came from a larger dog ownership too. But I am pleasantly surprised at how chill my mini is. I always think of small dogs as yappy. My mini is very attune to my family. Long walks/runs in nice weather and happy to chill on the couch on those stupid -50C winters.

I think finding an oversized mini might be a tall order. You should look at karbit or even a small standard. The mini is the most active of the bunch, though I find they suit our lifestyle very well. We brought him along on our last summer vacation, I love that he is small enough to fit under the cabin seat. He’s raked quite a fair bit of air miles having flown with us at least a dozen times already. I have an in size 13.5” at the withers and at a sturdy 14lbs. Not a chunker but just from exercise.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks for the breeder recommendations, kchen95 also just mentioned Horizon Poodles in MN in my original thread. Will definitely check them out!

I have also exchanged a couple emails with Karbit recently due to her name popping up frequently and find her very good. I may ask some of you Karbit puppy owners about your experiences, but all I hear is good. She even mentioned that the temperament and size I'd be looking for would not be a problem judging from the parents and puppy testing. So far so good!

But I always like to do my research, and because I have the time, I'm speaking with a few people and continuing that track until the timing is right.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

NaturalPoodle said:


> Hello,
> 
> I just posted a question in the new member area looking for sturdier standard poodles, being a big dog person.
> 
> ...


Hoo boy, stay away from the following so-called breeder. She was a broker for my poor Ricky. I can't find her in PCA, so hopefully she is out of business.


Doris Grant, in Kemptville, Ontario


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> My ideal dog would be intelligent, goofy, non-shedding (!), take 1 mile walks with me, do obedience training, and want to relax too without needing my attention every moment of the day, or otherwise bounce off the walls if he missed that perfect stimulation. Perhaps that is just a balanced dog?


That's my Matisse. (toy poodle) LOL. With emphasis on "goofy." Playful, mischievous and oh so affectionate. But _not_ hyper. (not since he was a pup) Non demanding. Great off switch. As a puppy though...omg! He was very busy. Couldn't sit on my lap for more than about a half a minute and then it was off to check something out, to get a toy, to entice Maurice or me to play. Very busy as a pup. But very mellowed out within a couple years. 

My other toy poodle Maurice more quiet (not vocally though) than Matisse. He's very "subtle." (as his breeder described him) Not very busy. Very affectionate and a champion lap sitter. Loves everyone and everyone's lap. haha.

They both can go hiking with me...sometimes up to 4 miles. They could do more but I can't...not all at once. (my achin' feet) But if they miss a walk altogether, they're fine with that too. No need to go for a walk to make their behavior good. They match my mood or my energy level for the most part. 

Go to a good breeder. Let him/her know what you're looking for. Remember they change sometimes as they age, as evidenced by Matisse. Maurice was not unlike he is now as a puppy...very laid back. And remember, don't strictly go by rumor or stereotypes. Although there are breed tendencies, they _ARE_ individuals with their own personalities. 

I would give up the notion of having a big dog or an out of standard dog. Go with a reputable breeder and be happy with a mini or whatever size dog you decide on. Perhaps you can get a more robust mini but I'd lean toward an in-sized dog or at least a fine breeder who doesn't try to breed differently than the standard but perhaps had one pop out that was a little bigger. Or move out of the place where they tell you how big your dog can be and get what you want. LOL!

Kudos for doing your research. Very important. Good luck.


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks for the input, Poodlebeguiled. I think you're right - it's much more important to go to a good breeder and talk about what I want in personality and such than find the oversized. Bonus if it turned out a bit on the bigger side! But more important that it's a healthy happy dog who fits my lifestyle (and vice versa).


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

NaturalPoodle said:


> Thanks for the input, Poodlebeguiled. I think you're right - it's much more important to go to a good breeder and talk about what I want in personality and such than find the oversized. Bonus if it turned out a bit on the bigger side! But more important that it's a healthy happy dog who fits my lifestyle (and vice versa).


Not to tempt you but - Shilo's New Zealand breeder, Pam Saville of Chamarre Poodles, just had a litter of five born 3 days ago, from Shilo's niece and dad (unrelated, different sides of his family). Pam will be looking for homes for two silver male pups from the litter - they're likely to grow up Shilo size (16-17 inches) 

Kevin


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

kchen95 said:


> Not to tempt you but - Shilo's New Zealand breeder, Pam Saville of Chamarre Poodles, just had a litter of five born 3 days ago, from Shilo's niece and dad (unrelated, different sides of his family). Pam will be looking for homes for two silver male pups from the litter - they're likely to grow up Shilo size (16-17 inches)
> 
> Kevin


Not to tempt me! That’s totally temptation right there ha ha... :airplane: :angel2:

It’s bad timing for me and my spouse to get a dog right now, but I’m hoping in a few years (hopefully not longer than that) ray:

But that won’t stop me from looking at their website again for fun lol...

Thanks for mentioning it though, very kind! Because you never know when you hear news like that and it IS the right timing :act-up:


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## NaturalPoodle (Jun 13, 2019)

kchen95 said:


> Shilo's New Zealand breeder, Pam Saville of Chamarre Poodles


Ah, I had forgotten that one of my favourite poodle photos was from her site, under About Us. A cool photo of one red and one black on the back of an industrial truck. You don’t see a lot of shots like that of poodles. I dare say that photo would win more non-poodle people over to poodles than the show dog photos (which I have recently begun to appreciate and understand the significance of, so don’t shoot! ?). 

Shots like that made me realize that all those Doodle people out there (like, ahem, myself until recently) can have a way superior and prettier dog without having to “Doodle”. Meeting one on the street, even better.

I think for me Doodles were the gateway to fluffy poodles, which were a gateway to all things poodle ? Not that I’m going to go and call Doodles a gateway drug, but hey! Lol


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## Meganf1027 (Oct 22, 2018)

I have a mini from Allure Poodles in Minnesota. She’s about 14inches, 16lb... she definitely is energetic and loves to play, but is also very calm and well mannered. She naps while I work or am watching tv and is self sufficient to play with her toys if she is bored. I’ve had toy poodles, but much prefer her personality over the littler ones


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