# another high volume breeder site



## Purple Poodle

Its sad I know what breeder you are talking about.

Its mind boggling how many puppies they sell on a regular bases.


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## cash

oh my gosh, on one page alone I counted 15, at $1500 a piece and again, that was only on one page. It's so sad that people like that prey on the uninformed.


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## Olie

cash said:


> oh my gosh, on one page alone I counted 15, at $1500 a piece and again, that was only on one page. It's so sad that people like that prey on the uninformed.


To some point we have to believe that some ARE informed and chose to ignor it and encourage their "livelyhood". I hate to say that but it's true - we forget easily because the HVB's drive us nuts wacko: (I googled as I seen your post - a slow down the ofc)


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## Fluffyspoos

Lol I found the page, and half those dogs tails are photoshopped.. and poorly at that.


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## Cdnjennga

I don't know who you're talking about because searching from Canada brings up different breeders I think... But IMO, while the Internet is wonderful and has improved life in lots of ways, one thing I don't think it's helped with is connecting pup buyers with quality breeders. The best breeders don't necessarily show up on page one of your search (or sometimes on any pages of the search - some great breeders don't have websites!) I think it's a shame that often it's the high volume people who pay to show up high on the search results and give the impression that they're doing all the right things.

As Olie pointed out though, pup buyers should also be educating and informing themselves and not just leaping on the first poodle breeder they see. Once you know what you're looking for (and out for) it takes about 1 minute of visiting a website to determine if you're even interested in finding out more. Or at least, that's how long it takes me. 

Unfortunately some or even many people just don't care. They SHOULD care, because paying $1500 for a pup from poor quality parents without health testing is just ridiculous, but they don't. Plus they don't want to wait. I will have waited almost a year from when I first decided I wanted a poodle to when I actually bring one home. Many people want things to happen a lot faster than that. And HVB always have a pup ready to go right now. It's a shame.


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## Poodle Lover

Fluffyspoos said:


> Lol I found the page, and half those dogs tails are photoshopped.. and poorly at that.


Ha, ha, I see what you mean. :biggrin1:

Some of those poodle puppies don't look very poodle to me.


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## Cdnjennga

Ok, I think I found it. Blech.... I love how it gives a tour of their "facility", which basically shows that their dogs live in kennels most of the time when not living in their whelping area. Yep, I bet those dogs have a great life. I also love how every puppy just about has the same description under it. Because the temperaments of them are all pretty much identical, so you might as well just pick the cutest and call it a day!


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## cash

Cdnjennga said:


> Ok, I think I found it. Blech.... I love how it gives a tour of their "facility", which basically shows that their dogs live in kennels most of the time when not living in their whelping area. Yep, I bet those dogs have a great life. I also love how every puppy just about has the same description under it. Because the temperaments of them are all pretty much identical, so you might as well just pick the cutest and call it a day!


Yep, that's the one! My thoughts exactly! Besides who says "I'm only going to buy a puppy if it is doggie door trained!" :fish: 


An if you look closely there are other parts of the dogs that are photo shoped.


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## PonkiPoodles

One of the reasons I think it's important to mention the actual names of the breeding facilities on forums, cause even thou it's just a site with multiple opinions... these threads do actually come up if you search a specific kennel name. (as you'll know if you've been here for a while)

I've searched many, many breeders and found some interesting theads regarding their operations.. and if someone on the thread has personal experience regarding a specific breeder you can totally view that as a review of the said kennel or breeding operation.
Just MO.


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## Harley_chik

I'll never understand how some people can buy a puppy online like it's a sweater or something. The idea of getting a dog pops into their head and an hour later they're "ordered" a living animal. I agree, in that way, the internet isn't such a great thing. 

I will never forget an episode of the Dog Whisperer where this guy saw Paris Hilton w/ her chihuahua on tv, so he got online and "ordered" one. He spent more time dressing the dog than training her. While I give him credit for getting help and not dumping the dog b/c she didn't turn out to be a super tiny purse dog (the way his idol did to her precious Tinkerbelle), the way he got the dog just made my skin crawl.


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## frostfirestandards

I dont even like ordering clothes online because sometimes what you think is your size in one store, is completly different in another LOL I think its that way with puppies too. 

I will trust a responsible breeder's opinion on which of his/her pups would be a good fit for my family, but im not just going to click a paypal link and get a puppy shipped to me, thats crazy. I have heard of some mills and "breeders" doing a bait and switch as well where you think you are getting one pup, but they pawn off another instead. 
:doh:


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## cash

PonkiPoodles said:


> One of the reasons I think it's important to mention the actual names of the breeding facilities on forums, cause even thou it's just a site with multiple opinions... these threads do actually come up if you search a specific kennel name. (as you'll know if you've been here for a while)
> 
> I've searched many, many breeders and found some interesting theads regarding their operations.. and if someone on the thread has personal experience regarding a specific breeder you can totally view that as a review of the said kennel or breeding operation.
> Just MO.


I was hesitant to list it, but the the website is to Smith Poodles in Arkansas. My opinions are from viewing the website only, I don't have personal experience with them!


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## plumcrazy

cash said:


> I was hesitant to list it, but the the website is to Smith Poodles in Arkansas. My opinions are from viewing the website only, I don't have personal experience with them!


When I was searching for my poodle princess, my husband's boss suggested we check out the two breeders from whom she bought her two standard poodles (one was in Montana, the other was in Minnesota)

In conversations/correspondence with the Minnesota breeder, I found out that at least one of her breeding dogs came from Smith Poodles (and she was PROUD of that fact) :scared: Well, of course I went to investigate Smith Poodles (at least investigate their website - I never contacted them personally) and was totally turned off by what I found.

During my contact with the Minnesota breeder, she shared that her bitch (who was always bred to the same stud and once a year or less) would have 5 - 8 puppies in a litter, but only 3 or 4 of the puppies would survive, if that :wacko: WTH is up with that??? She was selling her solid puppies for something like $900 and the parti ones for around $1,500!!! She really seemed like a lovely "person" on the phone, but a horrible "breeder" in any context!! I'm not sure if there was something terribly wrong with the match of bitch to stud that caused such a high mortality rate for her or what - but it wasn't a good thing!

OK... that's the extent of my coat-tail knowledge of Smith Poodles...


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

We have a breeder here in Ontario who has come up in some threads in the past who have 41 puppies available right now, with two more litters being announced. One red girl who is available is from a Mom of a more current litter available. RIDICULOUS!!!

I am going to peruse Smith Poodles site, and will likely be back spouting off about it.


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## roxy25

Most of the pups listed in the solid colored for sale page are sick some are so off type they don't even look like standard poodles to me. 

I am also OMG and WTF at he photoshoping of the tails of most of the adults. SMH what is wrong with people ?


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## cash

plumcrazy said:


> When I was searching for my poodle princess, my husband's boss suggested we check out the two breeders from whom she bought her two standard poodles (one was in Montana, the other was in Minnesota)
> 
> In conversations/correspondence with the Minnesota breeder, I found out that at least one of her breeding dogs came from Smith Poodles (and she was PROUD of that fact) :scared: Well, of course I went to investigate Smith Poodles (at least investigate their website - I never contacted them personally) and was totally turned off by what I found.
> 
> During my contact with the Minnesota breeder, *she shared that her bitch (who was always bred to the same stud and once a year or less) would have 5 - 8 puppies in a litter, but only 3 or 4 of the puppies would survive, if that :*wacko: WTH is up with that??? She was selling her solid puppies for something like $900 and the parti ones for around $1,500!!! She really seemed like a lovely "person" on the phone, but a horrible "breeder" in any context!! I'm not sure if there was something terribly wrong with the match of bitch to stud that caused such a high mortality rate for her or what - but it wasn't a good thing!
> 
> OK... that's the extent of my coat-tail knowledge of Smith Poodles...


I believe that the high death rate of the puppies would indicate a high probability of Neonatal Encephalopathy. More experienced people, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Purple Poodle

Whats also sad is that the majority of the other high volume breeders are all connected to one another so the lines are crossed over and over and things start to get ugly inside and out.

I have been able to connect over 15 BYB and HVB kennels on accident, just looking through kennel ad sites (mixed in with the good ones) and searching the net.

Its like 15 degrees of separation in a bad way.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

It is quite sickening and it makes it difficult for some of the low volume breeders to place their pups. Their niche is that whenever someone wants a puppy, they have them. If someone calls me now for a pup, and I tell them we will be having a litter in August, ready to go in October, 80% do not want to wait. They want a puppy yesterday, so then they start looking around, and find people like we are talking about here.


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## plumcrazy

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> If someone calls me now for a pup, and I tell them we will be having a litter in August, ready to go in October, 80% do not want to wait. They want a puppy yesterday, so then they start looking around, and find people like we are talking about here.


I'm so glad I was able to wait for my Lucybug!! It's very true that "good things come to those who wait"!!! I wish more people would understand that and not jump into a bad situation and help perpetuate the breeding programs of these questionable "breeders"... :fish:


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## Fluffyspoos

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> It is quite sickening and it makes it difficult for some of the low volume breeders to place their pups. Their niche is that whenever someone wants a puppy, they have them. If someone calls me now for a pup, and I tell them we will be having a litter in August, ready to go in October, 80% do not want to wait. They want a puppy yesterday, so then they start looking around, and find people like we are talking about here.


I've been waiting four years for my pup, over a year to get a pup from the breeder I want. My litter is scheduled to be born in july. You're not just getting a dog, you're getting a best friend that should be with you for a dozen years, why rush?


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## wishpoo

I do not even know what to say :doh:

Who on earth would pay that amount of money for actually "high-end" puppy-mill "facility" :smow: 

And what the heck was sooooo wrong with allllll of those tails that had to be "drawn by hand" :fish: Were they missing ??? Too short ??? I guess we can let our imagination "fly" : (((

Unbelievable - really .... NINE whelping boxes ???? Give me a brake LMAO - soft music !!!!!! ???

And here is a one UK breeder :
*
Standard Poodle
Location: london (Wales)
Description:	They are in a very good health, some is a young dog that is a farily new born, They are absolutely adorable very cute puppy some has a nice coat personality
They are just charming his personality is what makes him cute loves kisses. he's absolutely adorable gorgeous hair coat.
Infact a try will actually convince you.
*

You should have seen THOSE "facilities" : (((((((((((((((((.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I thought I "saw it all by now" : (((


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## *tina*

It seems a lot of the pictures on that particular site are photoshopped. There is a picture of one dam I think, where the knee is facing one direction and the foot (of the human behind the dog) is facing the opposite. Another where the dog is photoshopped into a dog show.


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## Fluffyspoos

*tina* said:


> Another where the dog is photoshopped into a dog show.


Yeah lol I thought this one was hilarious. If it was real, you'd see the little sign, there wouldn't be a trophy, that trophy would have a highlight of the camera flash, the people would have camera flash shadows behind them not just on the guys shirt, and that ribbon is just like.. floating in midair. It's way funny.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

The high volume breeder I refer to in Ontario just has photos of their babies, one at a time, held up in a pink or blue blanket like little used cars. You do not get to see the babies interacting with humans or their littermates. You see the pups heads...thats all. The fact that you do NOT see the facilities AT ALL scares me more than this other breeder.


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## 3dogs

*photo shop Is that what is wrong....*

O.K. some of those tails I was wondering how the heck they got so far off the end of the dog as well as stick straight up in the air. What is up with the extremes of totally thick Buffalo looking dogs & then the ones that are sooooo slab sided it looks like someone took an iron to them & flattened them, too much startch in the coat I guess. I can't get over the dog named "Baron" on the SOLID dams/sire page almost the last one there. Is that dog for real? I just can't believe anyone would want to breed that dog. I am in no way an expert but I love balance & the majority of the dogs have NONE. I think the only one I liked was Nibs.
Very distrubing & what the heck is "proven bloodlines" mean anyway. I couldn't find a single picture of a dog "showing" as well as no health testing with a fluff health gaurantee.

Sorry- I was just looking up some Parti dogs & this site pops up almost immediately.


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## 3dogs

*PS*

Sorry forgot to ask what the hck is a "WHITE CHOCOLATE" which is what they call one of their solid females????? Is that a fancy name for a Cream???


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## cbrand

3dogs said:


> Sorry forgot to ask what the hck is a "WHITE CHOCOLATE" which is what they call one of their solid females????? Is that a fancy name for a Cream???


I'm not looking at the picture, but I would have to guess that this is a Cream w/ liver pigment. This of course is a disqualifying fault in Poodles, but obviously if you give it a "cute" enough name, the public will be happy to lay down money for it.


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## SpooWishes

lol, ive been to that site before too. They are horrendously photo-shopped. And yeah, they don'tjust photoshop the tails either. I've seem them photo-shopped into poses where it looks like they are at a show getting an award, and also I've seen extra fluffiness poorly photo-shopped on them. 

I personally guessed that the tails were altered because they are either A. docked really short because they live in a pen and will get poop all over it. or B. are scared to death because they are not socialized (From living in a pen) and their tail as between their legs)
To me the tails looked like broccoli. 
IMO if you are that naive and impulsive, then you get what you deserve.


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## CharismaticMillie

Oh Lordy! Those entire dogs look like photo shopped blurs! LMAO!

BTW, what is that "trainpets.com" award for ethical breeder that MANY BYB, puppy mill or high volume breeders have on their website?!:hmmmm:


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## plumcrazy

3dogs said:


> Very distrubing & what the heck is "proven bloodlines" mean anyway. I couldn't find a single picture of a dog "showing" as well as no health testing with a fluff health gaurantee.


Maybe that their dogs have "proven" that they can have litters (and that they have blood??) :doh:


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## poodlemom2be

I'm so thankful I found this site, and all of the info I'm seeing. We have not purchased our puppy yet, we are still going through the breeder decision stage. I'm really approaching this prayerfully and trying not to leave any stones unturned because I don't want to be deceived. I'm starting not to care about what color anymore, just the temperament and the health of my puppy. I just want her to be healthy. This really disturbs me why and how can people be so greedy and cruel?! I know in search for a breeder, I've received several emails about poodles but one from what I think may be a high volume breeder in Canada. These last couple of months, I've been like inspector :suspicious: gadget, looking and investigating every little detail LOL. Thanks y'all for this info.


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## 3dogs

I think many of the "breeders" of less quality don't bother to answer my emails that I ask informative questions about. Like I would ask about CERF testing, hip testing, showing etc.... & I just would never get an email back. I found 1 great breeder & she answered all my questions, no fluff. I though did decide to go the Rescue route fully confident in the Rescue I chose.


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## PaddleAddict

poodlemom2be said:


> I'm so thankful I found this site, and all of the info I'm seeing. We have not purchased our puppy yet, we are still going through the breeder decision stage. I'm really approaching this prayerfully and trying not to leave any stones unturned because I don't want to be deceived. I'm starting not to care about what color anymore, just the temperament and the health of my puppy. I just want her to be healthy. This really disturbs me why and how can people be so greedy and cruel?! I know in search for a breeder, I've received several emails about poodles but one from what I think may be a high volume breeder in Canada. These last couple of months, I've been like inspector :suspicious: gadget, looking and investigating every little detail LOL. Thanks y'all for this info.


When you find a breeder you are interested in, post them here and we will help you out. As you have probably already realized, it's not just the high-voume breeders you have to watch out for. Plenty of small scale backyard breeders say their dogs have been health tested when in fact they mean they just received a general vet check up-- not the same! Among myriad problems. Unfortunately, a lot of people who breed dogs simply do it to make money. Those are the ones you want to avoid. The breeders who breed because the breed and bettering the breed is their passion and their hobby. Not a money-making business.


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## poodlemom2be

PaddleAddict said:


> When you find a breeder you are interested in, post them here and we will help you out. As you have probably already realized, it's not just the high-volume breeders you have to watch out for. Plenty of small scale backyard breeders say their dogs have been health tested when in fact they mean they just received a general vet check up-- not the same! Among myriad problems. Unfortunately, a lot of people who breed dogs simply do it to make money. Those are the ones you want to avoid. The breeders who breed because the breed and bettering the breed is their passion and their hobby. Not a money-making business.


That's horrible, I hope, all of the dirt they do comes back and bites them in the butt( pun intended) It's amazing what people do for money these days. Thanks! I will post all the links I received emails from now, I going to post them in the breeder thread.


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## faerie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> It is quite sickening and it makes it difficult for some of the low volume breeders to place their pups. Their niche is that whenever someone wants a puppy, they have them. If someone calls me now for a pup, and I tell them we will be having a litter in August, ready to go in October, 80% do not want to wait. They want a puppy yesterday, so then they start looking around, and find people like we are talking about here.


lol. my next one won't be til fall 2012 or later!


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## NOLA Standards

Personal experience

I called and asked for the registration numbers of sire and damn. Had a health discussion with the person on the phone. Was told yes to testing (never produced) and oh we don't inbreed.

NOT what the pedigrees prove.

Called back with a lecture (this was before my reds and even before my pet male so a couple of years ago now) and am certain it fell on deaf ears.

Then I heard they were breeding reds. Those poor little things (went and looked). Such a shame.


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## Standard

I found this on their "information page".

"Genetic testing and OFA certifying?Even though genetic testing is proving to be beneficial, there are many confusing and misleading things being put out over the internet and other writings about it. Give us a call if you would like further explanation. Just remember that purchasing your puppy from a professional experienced breeder whose producing proven bloodlines is the safest way to obtain a pet free of undesirable traits and disease."

Yeah, suuuure.


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## CharismaticMillie

"professional experienced breeder", huh?

What exactly, my friends, is a "professional" breeder? Nothing irks me more than when high volume breeders claim to be "professional" breeders.


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## Olie

NOLA Standards said:


> Then I heard they were breeding reds. Those poor little things (went and looked). Such a shame.


Yes it is sad......seems their business has grown:afraid:


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## PoodleMomAnew

And they must be from a country far far away or another universe because the names some of their dogs have are Tah-Tah and Cosco??!!??


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## CharismaticMillie

LMAO! 

I still cannot get over the obviously fake tails. They look like a second grader was experimenting on photoshop.


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## Feralpudel

ChocolateMillie said:


> LMAO!
> 
> I still cannot get over the obviously fake tails. They look like a second grader was experimenting on photoshop.


Oh, I think you're being unfair to second graders! A second grader would have done a much better job. :aetsch:


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## 3dogs

Or at least more creative.

I have to go back & find where the knees of the dog are in a different direction than the human shoes. That is funny. I just still can't get over that red St. Baron, such a slab, shallow dog, that just keeps going & going & going....


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## Menelly

You know, I'm new to poodles, but I was under the impression that Parti was technically not an allowed color for shows.

So what's with having only the Parti poodles photo shopped into various shows?


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## Olie

Parti's can show just not in AKC.

There are a few nice looking pups on there and I bet they were lifted off a good breeders website. They don't seem to fit with the majority. The tail situation is really creepy looking.


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## Feathersprings

I had to go look LOL Wow the tails ARE amazing  If I was going to Photoshop I would have to do better than that!!! And if those tails are better than the "real" tails that is sad.. I love that it says their "Standard Poodles are in a class of their own" ! That they are... one of the very truthful things on their site!


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## babysdaddy

Many of those puppies from bad breeders and/or puppy mills do get sold and given up within a short period of time (2-3 years). They may not be the ideal dog due to behavioral/physical/health issues and/or a bit of each, but they can be very good dogs as well as long term companions. 

For just focused training and commitment to the dog as well as a small donation to the rescue where many of these dogs go, I'll take in one of those dogs. They even clean up really well with a good grooming!


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## cbrand

babysdaddy said:


> Many of those puppies from bad breeders and/or puppy mills do get sold and given up within a short period of time (2-3 years). They may not be the ideal dog due to behavioral/physical/health issues and/or a bit of each, but they can be very good dogs as well as long term companions.
> 
> For just focused training and commitment to the dog as well as a small donation to the rescue where many of these dogs go, I'll take in one of those dogs. They even clean up really well with a good grooming!


I would not hesitate to get one of these dogs from rescue (though I'd worry about shy temperaments). However, Hell would pretty much freeze over before I personally handed money over to this breeder.

Remember. Buyers can influence breeding practices by essentially voting with their dollars. As long as buyers are willing to look at a web site like this and STILL plunk down their money, breeders like this will continue to churn out puppies.


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## Greeneyedgirl

*Smith Poodles*

Hi, i just joined this forum today. As I was reading all the threads i came across this one that mentioned "Smith Poodles". I was saddened as I read all the negative comments on this breeder. Make to mistake, Mr. Mick Smith does make a living off of breeding Standards, but he is very good at it. He loves his sires and they are well taken care of. My beautiful Parti Standard is from Smith's Poodles. No, I did not just click on an icon and get a dog. I actually worked at it for over 6 months. I was not impressed with the breeders in my area and I was not able to find a Standard to adopt, although I tried for over a year. I talked to Mick Smith for hours on end before and after I bought my puppy. He refused to sell me one puppy that I liked because he said we would not be a good fit and after finding out exactly what I wanted he suggested Boone. Mick gave me great trips in the training of Boone and Boone was crate-trained almost from the start, had only one accident in the house, which was my fault, and has never chewed on anything but his own toys. He has gotten along with my older dog very well. My dog Boone is extremely beautiful and both his vet and my groomer who specializes in Standards are very, very impressed with him. Other owners in of Standards in my neighborhood are impressed by Boone's temperament and beauty as well and have told me they plan to get their next Standard from Mr. Smith. By the way, Boone's tail is "normal" and he looks just like his original photo. I did not get him for show. He did have health records and he was well trained and socialized when he came to our home. I respect your opinions, but I feel they did get a bit harsh. I hope I am still welcome on this forum because I love my standard and I am not ashamed I also love "Smith Poodles".


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## Rowan

Hello, *Greeneyedgirl*! 
I don't know anything about the breeder and haven't read the entire thread, but I just wanted to say "Welcome." 

I'm also new to the forum  .


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## NOLA Standards

GreenEyedGirl,

Truly I understand your love for your boy. My parti pet - neutered male - has been my heart healer. Many of the animals in his line are the same animals Smith is breeding/inbreeding/linebreeding.

It turns out though, that *BLOAT* has occured more than once in these lines. And, bloat is a killer.

Being a good breeder is not just about being a good salesperson - giving new pet owners the "warm fuzzies" and being there to answer their calls. (If that's how they make their living that would only mean they are "at work!"). It's about providing the healthiest possible pets, among many other things (see the thread about Giving Back to the Breed).

We ALL love our dogs - they ARE special - regardless of where they came from!

But, a good breeder has to be willing to invest in testing and studying genetics and pedigrees. They must make the sometimes costly decision to spay or neuter and place as a pet some animals instead of breeding them.

A breeder knowingly breeding multiple animals with known cases of bloat in the immediate lineage is only breeding heartache.

As I said, my boy has known bloat in his line (and very likely so does yours - many here will direct you to how to research) and I'm really concerned for him. Not only does he have bloat on both sides throughout his line, he is the size of a female great dane -and long in body. The causes of bloat are still not known, but the structure of the "larger" poodles could put them at even greater risk. As a precaution I have GasX stashed everywhere. 

I'd so love the peace of not having bloat threading through his geneology.

A good breeder will test and will not breed animals known to have health issues or known to produce health issues.

We (sometimes) come across very opinionated and on occassion, harsh, but it's because we love the breed and want to protect it and our hearts while we are at it!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Rowan

I just read the entire thread and visited the Smith Poodles website. I'm _dumbounded _at not only the sheer number of "available puppies" but the number of varieties this breeder offers. My heart not only goes out to the unsuspecting owners of said puppies but also the poodles themselves. 

All I could think of when I looked at the website was one word: FACTORY. It's like a Toyota assembly plant or one of the agribusiness chicken farms where the birds are crammed into cages and forced to shoot out egg after egg, and that's heartbreaking to me. Dogs deserve so much better than that!

*Greeneyedgirl*: We all love our poodles and are united in our passion for poodles, so please don't take anyone's comments as being rude or belittling. Everyone here shares your love for our 4-legged friends. I hope you stick around as you can learn a lot from other poodle owners' experiences, joys and heartbreaks. 

I'm no expert, but people like Smith appear to have one goal in mind and that's to make $$$. As NOLA said, by all accounts he's a great salesperson, but based on what I've seen and admittedly on pure speculation, I'm not sure I'd call him a good human being. :-(

Again, welcome to the forum and the world of Poodle Obsession!


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## JE-UK

Love, love, love NOLA's post ... absolutely spot on.

Some breeders aim only for cute puppies, and some aim for great dogs.


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## Winnow

Thankfully we only have one miller here.

But to people who know nothing about her she is the sweetest person who is willing to do everything for you until you have bought the dog. 
This is called a excellent sales person and most millers are, you have to be in order to sell 40 pups each month. 

After the puppy gets home some find out that it is sick with Parvo or full of worms and so on, that's when you see the true personality of the puppy miller. 

The miller begin a nice person does not make it any better to buy puppies from them. 

I once went for a visit to the miller we have here and I so wanted to bring all the pups home with me to save them, but I knew that not buying the pup was helping more. 

One of our members bought a puppy mill dog and the puppy died only a few days after arriving to its new owner
Here you can follow it:

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8461-charlie-arrives-tomorrow-last-minute-questions-5.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8357-help-please.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8491-charlies-here.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8501-charlies-hospital-13.html

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8542-charlie-died.html


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## SnorPuddel

Winnow said:


> Thankfully we only have one miller here.
> 
> But to people who know nothing about her she is the sweetest person who is willing to do everything for you until you have bought the dog.
> This is called a excellent sales person and most millers are, you have to be in order to sell 40 pups each month.
> 
> After the puppy gets home some find out that it is sick with Parvo or full of worms and so on, that's when you see the true personality of the puppy miller.
> 
> The miller begin a nice person does not make it any better to buy puppies from them.
> 
> I once went for a visit to the miller we have here and I so wanted to bring all the pups home with me to save them, but I knew that not buying the pup was helping more.
> 
> One of our members bought a puppy mill dog and the puppy died only a few days after arriving to its new owner
> Here you can follow it:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8461-charlie-arrives-tomorrow-last-minute-questions-5.html
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8357-help-please.html
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8491-charlies-here.html
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8501-charlies-hospital-13.html
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/8542-charlie-died.html


As much as I would like to group Smith Poodles with puppy millers, they really don't qualify as a miller. There is a difference between a miller and a commercial breeder. The conditions that the dogs are raised in and how they are cared for. Most commercial breeders sell to brokers and pet stores, Smith says they don't, I can't verify that but I do know that they have people who recommend them to others and they are then rewarded with free puppies.
A Smith puppy most likely will not be shipped to an owner full of worms and on it's deathbed.

The issues I have with Smith is the shear amount of puppies they produce for one. 
The conformation on the adults is not what I would want in my poodle, they are not to the breed standard. 
Health testing, do they ?? It does not appear that they do. 
What does their claim of proven bloodlines mean ?? 
I don't like that they start puppy shots at 6 weeks, that is too early for me as the vaccine can interfere with any antibodies the puppies have from their mom. 1st shots should be done at 8 weeks, IMHO.

Those are just a few of my issues with Smith. I do know of a lady who has Smith poodles and has been the recipient of free poodles from Smith for referring people to Smith. Let's just say I am very happy that my poodles did not come from Smith.


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## TabbyMom

The picture with the funky leg, for those of you wanting to see it, is the Allie picture on the sires and dams page. One thing I did notice, on the few pictures that do not have a photo shopped tail in...the dog's tails are all down or between their legs. Doesn't look like happy dogs. My heart really goes out to those dogs......


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## zyrcona

Really strange pictures on that site, and not just the tails. 'Mo Bandy' has a very peculiar muzzle; looks like he's been in an RTA or something, unless they photoshopped that (and I can't think why). 'Lexus/Bubs' the white and apricot parti appears to have a huge thick neck like a bull.

A lot of the dogs have long bodies like 'draught excluders' with no depth to the chest and no waist. I wouldn't like to say any dog was ugly, but there are some very un-pretty faces there too. And one of their poor dogs (the one with the fake dog show background and the flying rosette) doesn't even seem to have been given a name. :-(


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## Turbomelvis

I am brand new to this post but wanted to throw my 2 cents in on my experience. Long long story short, I recently put down my miniature rescue-China due to pancreaitis and a herniated disk. My dream has always been to have a red standard and swore that once my China was gone, that would be my next. Not 72 hours after putting him down, I went on pet finder and behold.. a 10 month old red standard pup. Long story short, I drove all the way out to Tulsa to pick him up from a poodle rescue- Oklahoma Orphaned Poodle services (aka- OOPS). 

In his adoption paper work was the original shot records from Smith Poodles--I recognized this name only from years and years of looking at Standard poodle breeders. Never really researched into who was good/not good to buy from. I figured if they're asking $1500 must be some dang good poodles.. (common rookie mistake) since I have never really bought any poodle I have owned, I've always rescued I didn't know any better for thinking that. 

After getting Jackson home, and falling head over heals for my dream dog--who btw was already crate trained, leash trained, house broken, rings bells when he needs to go out, army crawls, bows, high 5's, sits, down, stay, speak, (and probably more that I have yet to "discover" he already knows. I contacted the foster mom who owns and shows several standards and was able to have a well informed conversation and brought up the fact he was from Smith Poodles.. she definitely didn't have much goodness to speak of..but it was SOLELY based on the confirmation she can see in the pictures and what she's seen come from his kennels. It was nothing personal.. I think the proof is in the pudding.... 

I then had fear struck in my heart of the thoughts of possible inbred, hip issues, eye issues ect, and if he's just as bad as what she's seen. BUt then her one comment flushed all that away... "Jackson is one in a million from that kennel--He's the most correct poodle I've seen come from that place and they were fools to sell HIM let alone have him neutered". 

Since then I have been in contact with Mick and I am attempting to see what health information (if any- and please dont laugh at this point) he is willing to share with me. 

I am very surprised that with most breeders, I see that they state clauses that if for any reason you cant keep the poodle, that they retain first rights at obtaining ownership/and or help assiting in finding them a new permanent home. As well as I have seen the same breeders automatically microchip their pups before they leave their property. Smith offers neither of these... Nor as many of you have seen offer any sort of proof of testing. 

Jackson had no such microchip (not even from his previous owner) who apparently gave him up due to moving and not being able to have more than one dog at the new place. Their LOSS MY GAIN. 

I will be more than happy to provide updates as to my communications with Smith Poodles and maybe it can help someone make a more informed choice. I am not here to judge them as seeing that I did not buy directly from them, but indirectly ended up with one of their pups. It will be very interesting to see how Jackson develops and for my own piece of mind (and for possible agility training later on) I do plan on having him tested for some of the things. 

Thanks for listening. 
Mel


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## 3dogs

Love your Rescue no matter the outcome. It is fantastic that you do adopt Rescues. I too have a Rescue. You though have an advantage at your hands in that you know the breeders name, you can find out the sire & dam's name & you can also do so research on Poodle Pedigree. So, you have lots of info at your hands. I on the other hand have no info. My Rescue is off the streets of Charolette, NC & taken to animal control. His coat was neglected, he was intact & wandering the streets. After the alotted time at Animal Control & local rescue pulled him & then sent him to CPR. I know nothing but he is truely an amazing dog & I hope his health holds up, since I know there are loads of health issues in the Spoo. But I will enjoy all the time I have with this guy. 

On Smiths website there is a Parti Poodle with trophy etc... with it I do believe that this Poodle is in GROOMING Competitions & I believe that is his Groomer. I have seen other pictures of this Poodle at other Competitions. I met a groomer in Atlanta with her Parti from Smiths, so yes, there are trophies, money, ribbons etc... with this type of competition. Not nec. a "fake" set up photo as others have implied.


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## Turbomelvis

You are absolutely right! NO matter the outcome with the breeder, Jackson is MINE.. FOREVER. And by God's grace, he will be as healthy as possible. 

Well apparently (no surprise really) Mick shut down all communication after his failed attempt of an excuse of "confirming with the previous owner she no longer has the dog". When I rebutted that with proof of owner surrender and my adoption paperwork, that no contact to her is necessary, he called me aggressive and that my rescue came from "good proven bloodlines. Be happy with that". LOL LOL LOL 

Its no longer just about the breeding of my poodle.. its now about awareness for others.

BTW... on the parti section of the dams and sires... 
TUX is a cousin of Mo Bandy... and they bred Tux to a daughter of Mo bandy- Isabelle... is that not admitting to line breeding? --the brindle parti is a daughter of this breeding... admittingly on their site... Any help with understanding line breeding would be great... 

In regards to the Brindle Parti poodle--I recognize the background and handler in a very very similar Grooming competition from Intergroom 2009. The groomer's name is Jonathan David, won the poodle division with this dog. 
INTERGROOM,Inc. SOMERSET, NEW JERSEY


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## Turbomelvis

And here is the same poodle/groomer as Best all around groomer in 2009 (the SAME picture on Smith poodles web site) INTERGROOM,Inc. NEW JERSEY


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## NOLA Standards

Some of the top lines utilize line breeding and occasional in breeding. (There are distinctions between the 2). These particular lines - I won't name the kennels - often produce top dogs that at a glance can be identified as X line/kennel.

My OPINION is that line breeding is often successfully done to create and fix type. A good article is in the July issue of Dog News - it explains pretty clearly formula breeding theories.

That said...it's also my OPINION that line breeding and in breeding is often used by high volume breeders and BYB's to produce puppies utilizing the animals they have in the "yard". There is no real reason for doing that - other than to cut costs while making a buck. And, I'll manage to stop myself now from commenting further... almost! (I know of a red pet high volume breeder who bred a daughter to her father to "deepen the color" - which is utter bologna!!!! (wouldn't work anyway) She did it because no one else would let her breed her dog to theirs and she wanted a litter of pups to sell!) I already have a pretty lengthy post in this thread about evaluating breeding animals and having the ethics to spay/neuter those which should not be bred.

If you have trouble finding the Dog News "Practical Breeding Using a Formula Approach" article by Carmen L Battaglia try googling the Bracket Method or the Grandfather Effect - "formula" breeding might also produce some information.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## spoospirit

_Well....that was interesting. Very bright like it's shouting in your face; hate that. A lot of those adults, as someone else mentioned, don't even look like poodles! Some of those puppies were down right homely. There is so many things not right with this whole program. Too bad that so many people throng here to purchase puppies of questionable conformation and health. But, we can't make these people go away. We can only do our best to breed good, healthy pups and place them in good, loving homes. Those who really care are the ones we want our puppies to go home with._


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## minipoodlelover

If you're new or returning after a long absence to the poodle puppy market, and start your search on the internet without first checking a forum like this one, odds are the average person is going to run into these high volume breeders and not realize there are ethical, reputable alternatives.

I encountered breeders of red minis, who I initially thought were trustworthy, churning out puppies with their female's every heat cycle. The average puppy buyer may not understand conformity and breeding to improve the breed. They see a cute puppy and something vague about "vet checked," and they think they've found a good breeder.

The irony is, prices are not necessarily lower with these subpar breeders. Cost was not my primary concern, but as it happens, I paid less for my mini than a friend did for her pet-store (shudder) poodle pup.

Turbomelvis, Jackson sounds wonderful. Best wishes for many years of health and happiness ahead.


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## Greeneyedgirl

I have 2 healthy, beautiful standard poodles from Smith Poodles. They are the best dogs I have ever owned and the experience of buying each of them from Smith Poodles was delightful. I wonder about folks who write "ugly" things about a breeder they have never met, never talked to and never taken the time to visit in person. Anne and Mick Smith have been breeding Standard poodles for many years and they know what they are doing. They breed very intelligant, very beautiful, very calm and loving dogs. Yes, he breeds many dogs. It is his profession and he is very good at what he does. And yes he sends dogs all over the country. This does not make him a "puppy Mill" not does this make his dogs inferior. His facilities are clean, his dogs very well cared for and he and his wife love all their dogs and are wonderful people. Many horse breeders make a profession over breeding many horses per year. One needs to check out the facilities and owners and the quality of their program before passing judgement. Please, before you assume things based on their website, take a minute or two to either talk to them in person, talk to the many folks who are blessed to have one of their dogs or visit them before writing untrue things that are not based on reality and stay on the web forever.


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## spoospirit

_Greeneyedgirl... I am very happy for you that your experience was a good one and that you have two wonderful puppies to love.

I disagree with you on a web site not being a reliable representation of a breeder. A breeder's web site SHOULD be a representation of their dogs and their program. Most people do go to a web site first to check out a breeder; even I do, and I am a breeder. What I find glaringly missing is test results on all of the breeding stock. Although it is mentioned that the puppies are guaranteed to be genetically free from the poodle diseases for two years; no where does it mention how they can offer this guarantee. There are no AKC registered names of these breeding dogs for anyone to go look up genetic testing to be sure it has all been done. I feel most comfortable with a breeder who is transparent and puts their testing on their site or link you to the genetic test results.

I just spent some time on their site again. I have to say that several of the dogs/bitches featured are not to the poodle standard conformationally. Many have such obvious faults that they are quite noticeable in the photos. I did see two that were close. I also don't see anything anywhere that mentions any type of titles on their dogs. Did they prove their stock by attaining champions in conformation? Did they prove them in other ways such as getting CGC's on them or obedience or agility titles? 

Good breeders do more than just love their dogs and keep them clean and healthy. They genetically test their breeding dogs and they get titles on them to prove that they are worthy of being in the gene pool to take the breed well into the future. 

If they are doing testing and titling their stock, then that should be very apparent and easily found on their web site. The truth of the matter is that most people looking for a puppy are not going to be able to visit their facility. They are going to go to their web site, which should be a complete representation of their program, to look for important information on the dogs and hopefully see photos of dogs representing their breeding stock. All puppies are cute for the most part, but the proof is in the pudding and I don't see the proof anywhere on their site.

Breeders spend time looking at other breeders dogs and programs. This is one of the ways we decide on who to contact for breeding. So you will see those who are really concerned with the future of the standard poodle assessing other breeders. I know that we are assessed all the time as breeders. It's actually a good thing to keep us aware of what we need to be breeding for in conformation, temperament and health to do justice to our breed. 

Perhaps they might want to consider including their test results for their breeding stock and the titles each breeding dog has earned on their site.

If they are not or have not tested all of their stock or put titles on them or are breeding stock that does not conform to the poodle standard (which some of them are not), then no matter how lovely their place is, how much they love their dogs or how well they keep them, they still fall into the BYB category._


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## spoospirit

_Greeneyedgirl... I am very happy for you that your experience was a good one and that you have two wonderful poodles to love.

I disagree with you on a web site not being a reliable representation of a breeder. A breeder's web site SHOULD be a representation of their dogs and their program. Most people do go to a web site first to check out a breeder; even I do, and I am a breeder. What I find glaringly missing is test results on all of the breeding stock. Although it is mentioned that the puppies are guaranteed to be genetically free from the poodle diseases for two years; no where does it mention how they can offer this guarantee. There are no AKC registered names of these breeding dogs for anyone to go look up genetic testing to be sure it has all been done. I feel most comfortable with a breeder who is transparent and puts their testing on their site or link you to the genetic test results.

I just spent some time on their site again. I have to say that several of the dogs/bitches featured are not to the poodle standard conformationally. Many have such obvious faults that they are quite noticeable in the photos. I did see two that were close. I also don't see anything anywhere that mentions any type of titles on their dogs. Did they prove their stock by attaining champions in conformation? Did they prove them in other ways such as getting CGC's on them or obedience or agility titles? 

Good breeders do more than just love their dogs and keep them clean and healthy. They genetically test their breeding dogs and they get titles on them to prove that they are worthy of being in the gene pool to take the breed well into the future. 

If they are doing testing and titling their stock, then that should be very apparent and easily found on their web site. The truth of the matter is that most people looking for a puppy are not going to be able to visit their facility. They are going to go to their web site, which should be a complete representation of their program, to look for important information on the dogs and hopefully see photos of dogs representing their breeding stock. All puppies are cute for the most part, but the proof is in the pudding and I don't see the proof anywhere on their site.

Breeders spend time looking at other breeders dogs and programs. This is one of the ways we decide on who to contact for breeding. So you will see those who are really concerned with the future of the standard poodle assessing other breeders. I know that we are assessed all the time as breeders. It's actually a good thing to keep us aware of what we need to be breeding for in conformation, temperament and health to do justice to our breed. 

Perhaps they might want to consider including their test results for their breeding stock and the titles each breeding dog has earned on their site.

If they are not or have not tested all of their stock or put titles on them or are breeding stock that does not conform to the poodle standard (which some of them are not), then no matter how lovely their place is, how much they love their dogs or how well they keep them, they still fall into the BYB category._


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## 3dogs

I think there are 2 seperate issues. There can be very caring, loving people who breed their dogs. But there is a little bit more to breeding than that. Down the street is a Toy Poodle Breeder & though she is a very nice person & I have groomed all 3 of her sires & I have groomed some of the offspring over the past year & all have had great temperaments I would not buy a dog from her. Just like Smith Poodles- they may be loving, great people, that have lovely temperment poodles but what both my friend down the street & Smiths is that they lack Health Testing, any type of titles or even working the dogs in conformation, agility, rally, hunt tests, therapy ANYTHING that means they do more than just churn out puppies. It does not mean they are "bad" people just not the best breeders. Anybody can throw 2 dogs together & get puppies. But it takes a little bit more than that.

I have a rescue Spoo & who knows where he came from- did he come from some horrid Puppymill, did somebody buy him at a petstore, did somebody by him from a loving breeding facility, was he bought from a 1 time mating etc... I don't know but I do know that I have a fantastic Poodle & love him dearly & am glad that somebody tossed him out in the streets because I got a lovely Poodle.


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## spoospirit

_Sorry about the double post!? Please feel free to delete the second one. It sure does take up a lot of space._


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## JE-UK

Well-stated, spoospirit.

We all want healthy, hearty poodles, poodles who can run beside us for years and years, poodles that can participate in dog sports or assistance activities, poodles that are stable and sound. To get that, we must look for breeders who look beyond producing cute puppies. We need breeders who look to produce healthy, long-lived, capable DOGS. 

To that end, I always want to see breeders competing (in breed or in dog sports), breeders health-testing their dogs, breeders looking after their dogs and not over-breeding, breeders supporting other good breeders and working to effect change within the breed organisations to help and support them in continuing to produce the best dogs they can.

Greeneyedgirl, I'm glad you are happy with your poodles. But that breeder doesn't look to be doing any of the above.


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## ifrsmith

*responce to; another high volumn breeder*

I think it should be considered that it's not how many puppies a breeder produces but how and to what level of expertise they produce them. You can be a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder and be a puppy mill. A puppy mill is someone who is just breeding dogs to dogs without any knowledge or expertise of genetic breeding. This kind of breeding doesn't enhance or improve the breed at all. There is no predictability in it and not knowing the genetics is you might say shooting in the dark. It amazes me how some people passes judgment on others when they don't know them, have never met or even spoke to them and never had been to their place to see their operation. To say the least that is unfair judgment that is unjust in every way. There are some breeders who have developed from a small breeder to a large producer over a period of many years and have grown to develop excellent pedigrees and proven bloodlines by excellent breeding practices. Smith Standard Poodles are such a breeder. Get some facts before smearing their name to the public. They are a very knowledgeable experienced breeder and produce top of the line Standard Poodles...


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## ericwd9

ifrsmith said:


> I think it should be considered that it's not how many puppies a breeder produces but how and to what level of expertise they produce them. You can be a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder and be a puppy mill. A puppy mill is someone who is just breeding dogs to dogs without any knowledge or expertise of genetic breeding. This kind of breeding doesn't enhance or improve the breed at all. There is no predictability in it and not knowing the genetics is you might say shooting in the dark. It amazes me how some people passes judgment on others when they don't know them, have never met or even spoke to them and never had been to their place to see their operation. To say the least that is unfair judgment that is unjust in every way. There are some breeders who have developed from a small breeder to a large producer over a period of many years and have grown to develop excellent pedigrees and proven bloodlines by excellent breeding practices. Smith Standard Poodles are such a breeder. Get some facts before smearing their name to the public. They are a very knowledgeable experienced breeder and produce top of the line Standard Poodles...



Did someone name you?


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## patk

ericwd9 said:


> Did someone name you?



this thread is about five years old. to add to eric's question, are you smith of smith poodles? just curious.


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## peccan

3dogs said:


> Sorry forgot to ask what the hck is a "WHITE CHOCOLATE" which is what they call one of their solid females????? Is that a fancy name for a Cream???


White or cream (easy part) with brown (i.e. liver i.e. chocolate) pigment. Solid romanticising name for a faulty colouration.

----

Anyways, thanks for the person who mentioned the kennel name! I would have never found the site otherwise, since my first few pages were more or less reputable general info sites, kennel club sites, breed organization sites, and PuppyFinder, then local breeders etc.

I'll just be a bore and list some things that rub me the wrong way, only based on their site.

1) web search title line is _Standard Poodles For Sale_
2) page for breeding bitches has a contrast-coloured line that says _Not all of our females have puppies every year!_
3) photoshopped tails
4) breeding stock of varying quality
5) no pedigree info on any breeding dog, no D.o.B
6) "All are AKC Standard Poodles"
7) listing puppies on separate pages depending on colouration
8) non-conformational photos in short-to-shaven coats are all that's available for most of the breeding stock
9) incorrect FFT
10) many puppies with shaved faces have unshaved feet
11) not a word on grooming in the "owning a Spoo" section

Corresponding purely personal opinions:
1) I think this makes it clear what their primary goal is with bree-- eh, multiplying Poodles
2) I think this should not need to be said. And even then, it's worded with a nice big loophole.
3) first off, if 'shop, why not 'shop good? Or is a clumsy paint job an insurance against claims, in the vein of "no consumer could be stupid enough to believe it when we call Vitamin Water a health drink"? In any case, whatever impaired Photoshop-illiterate they hired, they should have gotten a second-grader with a faint whiff of how Poodle tails are supposed to look... or any dog tails, for that matter. And if beautify tails, then why not a large Pointery head, a long back, a barrel flank, a mid-sneeze face, a weak back, a J-Lo rump, straight legs, over-angled legs? Or, for all the effort putting up a photo on the site is worth, get decent portraits in the first place?
5) call me a fuss and a prissy twit, but when I look for a puppy, I want a breeder who has nothing to hide in their bloodlines--including overused sires, overbred dams, dams bred too young or too old, inbreeding, lines known for passing on inherited disorders--all can be garnered from browsing some pedigrees
6) this means nothing, AKC would register a shaved cat if a you sent in papers and the fee
7) again, I think this makes it clear what their primary goal is with bree-- eh, multiplying Poodles -- even if the page says "It’s simply just color", listing puppies separately based on colour sends the exact opposite message.
8) call me a fuss and a prissy twit, but when I look for a puppy, I want to see what the parents look conformation-wise, because any dog is lovable when she sits on the patio, mouth wide in an excited panting grin--I actually have no qualm against seeing the parents "naked" (so much easier to see all the conformation), but seeing that a Poodle is first and foremost a "coated" breed, why the heck not prove that the breeding stock can keep a properly textured coat by showing them in a decent length? Some of these dogs could be part-bald for all the photos show.
9) call me a fuss and a prissy twit, but it makes me feel funny to see a professional Poodle breeder with high claims to their stock, but most of the dogs have over-shaven feet and/or tail, some have incorrect latch
10) seeing how Poodle needs grooming its entire life, and feet are a sensitive place, I'd like my puppy with shaved feet as it proved it has been handled to accept that treatment
11) IMO this is unethical towards both the customer and the dog--at the very least one should sternly remind their customer that a Poodle needs grooming every few weeks for 13-17 years, and needs to be brushed regularly unless kept shaven close. One should not want to risk a coat-shocked customer or more importantly, a dog abandoned for being the breed he is.


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## ifrsmith

patk said:


> this thread is about five years old. to add to eric's question, are you smith of smith poodles? just curious.


Your question seems ridiculous but yes I was named by my mother and father. If your referring to my user name, ifr stands for Instrument Flight Rules with the FAA. I’m a pilot and having such a common name it’s hard to find a suitable user name. Anyway, this one worked. How about you did someone name you?
I responded to this forum because I was so amazed that none of the comments I read had any facts or proof to back them up. It made me wonder if these people have anything else to do rather than join together is a bashing session against someone they don’t even know or have any factual knowledge about. More than that it made me wonder if they are aware that Defamation though not a crime, but it is a "tort" (a civil wrong, rather than a criminal wrong). A person who has been defamed can sue the person who did the defaming. The term "defamation" is an all-encompassing term that covers any statement that hurts someone's reputation. It’s more serious when the statement is made in writing and published.


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## peccan

ifrsmith said:


> ...amazed that none of the comments I read had any facts or proof to back them up. (...)
> 
> More than that it made me wonder if they are aware that Defamation though not a crime, but it is a "tort" (a civil wrong, rather than a criminal wrong). A person who has been defamed can sue the person who did the defaming. The term "defamation" is an all-encompassing term that covers any statement that hurts someone's reputation. It’s more serious when the statement is made in writing and published.


Without even looking back the thread I can tell one of the most commented concerns has been how the photos on this breeder's site are

* obviously and clumsily photoshopped*

to majorly alter the tail region. How is this not a fact or proof to you, and more importantly, how is this not a concern to you? And the same goes for:

- decent photos of breeding dogs that show their conformation
- pedigrees of breeding dogs
- health test results and offspring health reports of breeding dogs
- dates of birth for breeding dogs
- conformation and sport show results of breeding stock and offspring
- conformation, sport, behaviour test results of breeding dogs and offspring
- list of litters produced with parents and date of birth info

All these are standard fare for public info on a kennel's site and none of this is found on this one.



> Your question seems ridiculous...


It may be a common surname, but it sure is a big coincidence that a random good citizen browsing the web would happen on a five-year-old thread on a breeder that happens to have that same surname, and moreover, feel so strongly about the whole affair as to ignore that some facts/proof HAS been presented, ignore points made, offer no refutal, only contradiction, and go into all but explicit legal threats in just a couple of posts.

You know, all that effort and emotion for a breeder for whom they imply do not have connection.


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## Countryboy

ifrsmith said:


> I responded to this forum because I was so amazed that none of the comments I read had any facts or proof to back them up. It made me wonder if these people have anything else to do rather than join together is a bashing session against someone they don’t even know or have any factual knowledge about.


LOL - Welcome to forums.


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## Viking Queen

Fascinating..... 5 yr old thread.............op:


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## music0018

NOLA Standards said:


> GreenEyedGirl,
> 
> Truly I understand your love for your boy. My parti pet - neutered male - has been my heart healer. Many of the animals in his line are the same animals Smith is breeding/inbreeding/linebreeding.
> 
> It turns out though, that *BLOAT* has occured more than once in these lines. And, bloat is a killer.
> 
> Being a good breeder is not just about being a good salesperson - giving new pet owners the "warm fuzzies" and being there to answer their calls. (If that's how they make their living that would only mean they are "at work!"). It's about providing the healthiest possible pets, among many other things (see the thread about Giving Back to the Breed).
> 
> We ALL love our dogs - they ARE special - regardless of where they came from!
> 
> But, a good breeder has to be willing to invest in testing and studying genetics and pedigrees. They must make the sometimes costly decision to spay or neuter and place as a pet some animals instead of breeding them.
> 
> A breeder knowingly breeding multiple animals with known cases of bloat in the immediate lineage is only breeding heartache.
> 
> As I said, my boy has known bloat in his line (and very likely so does yours - many here will direct you to how to research) and I'm really concerned for him. Not only does he have bloat on both sides throughout his line, he is the size of a female great dane -and long in body. The causes of bloat are still not known, but the structure of the "larger" poodles could put them at even greater risk. As a precaution I have GasX stashed everywhere.
> 
> I'd so love the peace of not having bloat threading through his geneology.
> 
> A good breeder will test and will not breed animals known to have health issues or known to produce health issues.
> 
> We (sometimes) come across very opinionated and on occassion, harsh, but it's because we love the breed and want to protect it and our hearts while we are at it!
> 
> Tabatha
> NOLA Standards


Tabatha, how can you be certain that there is bloat in your dogs genetics? Wouldn't Smith Poodles' owners be the only ones to know if a dog in their line of breeding has had bloat?


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## lily cd re

ifrsmith said:


> I think it should be considered that it's not how many puppies a breeder produces but how and to what level of expertise they produce them. You can be a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder and be a puppy mill. A puppy mill is someone who is just breeding dogs to dogs without any knowledge or expertise of genetic breeding. This kind of breeding doesn't enhance or improve the breed at all. There is no predictability in it and not knowing the genetics is you might say shooting in the dark. It amazes me how some people passes judgment on others when they don't know them, have never met or even spoke to them and never had been to their place to see their operation. To say the least that is unfair judgment that is unjust in every way. There are some breeders who have developed from a small breeder to a large producer over a period of many years and have grown to develop excellent pedigrees and proven bloodlines by excellent breeding practices. Smith Standard Poodles are such a breeder. Get some facts before smearing their name to the public. They are a very knowledgeable experienced breeder and produce top of the line Standard Poodles...


Why did you choose to bring this back up? The thread is five years old and the last time someone posted until now was in 2012.


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## poodlecrazy#1

I'm curious as to why at least two other old threads about this breeder have been brought up. I'm tempted to report as trolling but am giving the benefit of doubt first.


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## lily cd re

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> I'm curious as to why at least two other old threads about this breeder have been brought up. I'm tempted to report as trolling but am giving the benefit of doubt first.


I'm on the same line of thought as you poodlecrazy#1.


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## patk

ifrsmith: i'm not the one named smith who claims ten dogs in my profile. makes the question about your relationship to the breeder(s) a natural one. breeders about whom negative comments have been made do post on pf to "defend" themselves. if they're running a large-scale commercial operation, they should be prepared - especially if photoshopped dogs are shown on the site.

as for "defamation" - if it's a fact, there's no defamation involved. in addition, if you're a "public figure" - and an argument can be made that a large-scale commercial dog breeding operation falls under that heading - the possibility of being "defamed" is pretty slim to just about none. maybe you should worry more about the substance of what was pointed out about the smith site and dogs; some of those who spoke up actually, as it turns out, do know quite a bit about breeding poodles. and folks here have seen that same old defamation threat waved around to the point that they find it laughable.


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## peccan

ifrsmith said:


> (...) knowledge or expertise of genetic breeding. (...) proven bloodlines (...) very knowledgeable experienced breeder and produce top of the line Standard Poodles...


You might not be one of the Smith Kennel, but comparing your post(s) to their website I'd wager a sum that you at least wrote pages for their site.

That having been said, a very knowledgeable and experienced "genetic breeder" should know that a genetic test is not used to determine whether a dog is healthy or not (that's what a health test does); and that genetic testing gives true predictability, no ifs ands or buts; and that a "genetic pool" refers to all available genetic material in a population, not a breeding couple; and most definitely such a breeder would not have this passage on their site:



> So don’t be deceived into believing that because two dogs being mated have had genetic testing that they can’t produce diseased offspring. You would have to know the genetics of every dog in their genetic pool to determine that.


If a genetically tested breeding couple proven free of, say, genes causing prcd-PRA, produces offspring that suffers from prcd-PRA, then the breeder is lying about the tests or the parentage of the puppies.

No breeder can 100% guarantee totally healthy puppies, but genetic testing and breeding accordingly can and does guarantee puppies free of the diseases and disorders that were tested for.

This passage is worded vaguely and sounds manipulative. I hope, if people from or for the Smith kennel are reading this, that they rework their entire Standard Poodle Health Issues page to be clearer and more concise, especially the quoted passage, which sounds like it was intended to purposefully mislead puppy buyer prospects. Also, a puppy buyer prospect would like to know what they test for, and what results each breeding dog has gotten. And, you know, pedigrees.


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## MollyMuiMa

She/He asked in one post how would you know a lineage would be noted for a health defect, in this case 'bloat'............even I who is new to the breed know you can go to Poodle Health Registry , where all CONSCIENTIOUS owners go and register anything 'wrong' healthwise and include registration #s so a lineage can be traced..................


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## music0018

MollyMuiMa said:


> She/He asked in one post how would you know a lineage would be noted for a health defect, in this case 'bloat'............even I who is new to the breed know you can go to Poodle Health Registry , where all CONSCIENTIOUS owners go and register anything 'wrong' healthwise and include registration #s so a lineage can be traced..................


I guess not everybody is that smart...I guess I am one of them...I have never heard of such a thing. But thanks for, in not so many words, telling me that I am a crappy dog owner since I didn't know such a thing existed. You all deserve such high praises for your knowledge... &#55357;&#56836;


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## MollyMuiMa

Didn't take much to do the research on the breed.....................and learn!!!
No, I am not calling anybody a crappy owner, I'm saying do your research , which by the way, includes much learned here, and then researched more! I'm a senior citizen that believes you are NEVER too old to learn, and you can NEVER know everything!


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## Poodlebeguiled

*Yes, and*..."Those who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do." :aetsch:


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## Poodlebeguiled

ifrsmith said:


> I think it should be considered that it's not how many puppies a breeder produces but how and to what level of expertise they produce them. You can be a backyard breeder or a hobby breeder and be a puppy mill. A puppy mill is someone who is just breeding dogs to dogs without any knowledge or expertise of genetic breeding. This kind of breeding doesn't enhance or improve the breed at all. There is no predictability in it and not knowing the genetics is you might say shooting in the dark. *It amazes me how some people passes judgment on others when they don't know them, have never met or even spoke to them and never had been to their place to see their operation. To say the least that is unfair judgment that is unjust in every way. *There are some breeders who have developed from a small breeder to a large producer over a period of many years and have grown to develop excellent pedigrees and *proven bloodlines by excellent breeding practices. *Smith Standard Poodles are such a breeder. Get some facts before smearing their name to the public. They are a very knowledgeable experienced breeder and produce top of the line Standard Poodles...


To refer to the first part of your post that I put in block, I don't need to meet the person or see the facilities. All I have to do is see that website and those dogs to know that this is not a breeder I would ever consider. I _do_ pass judgment on what is shown to me. The dogs have very poor conformation, there are no titles from either showing or sports, therapy work...nothing, at least not that I saw. To take the 2nd part that is bolded...proven? Where are the titles? Where are the genetic health tests?Where is the proof? What shows that this breeder is knowledgeable? I have only seen statements that demonstrate exactly the opposite. Any top breeder who does have proof of their quality dogs would not find these statements made by this breeder to be knowledgeable. 




> To say the least that is unfair judgment that is unjust in every way.


This isn't a court of law where it is necessary that the accuser has the burden of proof. This is a seller and buyer situation. I, as a buyer would NEVER buy a dog from this breeder. And it's too bad there are breeders like this who ruin a breed by such obvious substandard breeding practices. 

Smearing the name around? I hope it gets smeared more so more dogs don't suffer and the whole breed doesn't suffer from this irresponsible and poor breeder. I think having a huge number of dogs for breeding under any circumstances is or should be criminal. It is a mill, whether it's clean or filthy. Dogs should be pets first and foremost, not breeding *machines*. That is my opinion. No facts needed. Opinion is not libel btw.


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## Tiny Poodles

Why are people here so intent upon telling everyone which breeder they should or should not consider? If you have PERSONAL knowledge after dealing with a breeder, and somebody who is considering them asks you to share that, that is one thing. But all of this judging via looking at websites and BS that you read on the internet is so pointless - anybody who is looking for a puppy can read the same stuff, look at the same pictures, and make up their own dang mind, so why the need to foist your interpretation of what you read on the internet upon them?
If you know a breeder, bought a puppy from them, that is valuable information to share. But once a person has been schooled about the basics to look for in a Breeder, why try to foist YOUR interpretation of what is there for anyone to see on the internet upon them? It seems like you are fulfilling some kind of emotional need of your own, rather than relaying any enlightening information, whilst maligning a breeder that you have no actual firsthand knowledge of in the process.


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## Poodlebeguiled

We're all entitled to our opinions. If I see dogs advertised on a website and I don't like the looks of them, I might opt to say so. Some puppy buyers are new to the whole thing or may not know a well put together dog when they see one. Or may not know what to look for as far as titles, genetic health tests etc. So, I don't see anything wrong with informing the public who may not all be as well versed in what to watch for. This website of this breeder, who is show casing her dogs is all I need to see to form my opinion. I don't have to meet her or see her facilities. If she had better dogs, all the things I want to see in a breeder, then why would she not show that on her website?


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## Carley's Mom

I just call it, " Educating the public." But some prefer keeping buyers in the dark... it's way more profitable.


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## Tiny Poodles

I think it is fine and great to school people on what to look for in a breeder, however I do not think that it is nice or helpful to use those tools to evaluate and disparage a breeder based upon what you read on the internet, the same things that they can read. If somebody looks at a breeder's website and likes what THEY see, then it behooves them to speak to the breeder directly, ask the pertinent questions, and for the verifications that they want, as well to seek references from people who have actually worked with said breeder and actually own their puppies. Unless you have done that actual leg work yourself, I think that it is wrong for you to formulate opinions about said breeder and try to publicly foist your shaky opinions upon them.


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## Poodlebeguiled

In the past I have been a piano teacher, a riding instructor, a swimming instructor and a dog trainer. I have also been in various types of schools, college, programs etc. Part of what is included in teaching, training, mentoring, AND learning is the use of examples. Here, for example, _is_ an example of what kind of breeder to avoid. Some people don't want to spend time researching what makes a good breeder or reading about what is meant by an arpeggio or how to get a horse to collect himself or learn leads. It helps them find out _right_ away what is meant... by the use of examples. It is purely an educational style you might say. I will continue, no matter what...to call out breeders that I think suck to try and prevent more damage to dogs, their owners and the breed itself. And will continue to point out breeders that I think look good. The rest is up to the buyer.


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## Tiny Poodles

Sounds like you are very accustomed to the role of being a teacher, so you should be aware that it is unwise to attempt to teach others about a matter in which you do not have all the facts, as you may inadvertently be harming people and dogs with your unsubstantiated teachings...


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## Poodlebeguiled

I have plenty of facts and no...I'm not going to get into it again about Dalin....if that's what you're upset about. I am not going to carry this one further either. LOL! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVSRm80WzZk


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## Tiny Poodles

Not at all, I don't like when you do it to anyone based solely upon what you read on the internet. I don't think that the internet makes you as well informed as you think that you are.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Tiny Poodles said:


> Not at all, I don't like when you do it to anyone based solely upon what you read on the internet. I don't think that the internet makes you as well informed as you think that you are.


Parti, Phantom, & Solid Colored AKC Standard Poodle Breeders

Is this the breeder or the Poodles we're talking about here? Who's website is this if it's not Smith Poodles? Who's dogs_ are _these pictured and described? Maybe we're talking about something different. This is on the Internet yes. But who put it on the Internet?


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## Tiny Poodles

I am not talking about Smith, Dalin, or Valcopy. I am talking about passing judgements on breeders that you don't have ANY personal knowledge of. For all you know some lousy internet marketing company did the website and convinced her that this is what people want to see, and she so upset with it that she was not willing to spend another 5 grand to have somebody else try to fix it. I don't know, but my point is that neither do you - the only breeder that you have a right to judge is Valcopy because you have had personal dealings with him.


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## lily cd re

Has anyone else noticed that the poster who brought this back to life has disappeared? I think we got trolled. Don't feed the troll. the ensuing discussion has many interesting points, but maybe it should be in a new thread.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Tiny Poodles said:


> I am not talking about Smith, Dalin, or Valcopy. I am talking about passing judgements on breeders that you don't have ANY personal knowledge of. For all you know some lousy internet marketing company did the website and convinced her that this is what people want to see, and she so upset with it that she was not willing to spend another 5 grand to have somebody else try to fix it. I don't know, but my point is that neither do you -* the only breeder that you have a right to judge is Valcopy because you have had personal dealings with him*.


I most certainly do have a right to judge any breeder whether I know them personally or not... and form any opinion of anything I want and that includes this website and whoever's dogs those are. :aetsch:

I will stop feeding trolls.


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## Spoos+Ponies

I agree that the re-igniter did seem to have some 'trolly' characteristics, but as Catherine says, it is still an interesting topic, one that I have given a lot of thought to. 

I haven't had any dealings with Smith poodles, but my first spoo was from a breeder who got her sire and dam from smith. I have only had poodles for 7 years now, but even in such a short period of time the availability of partis has increased dramatically. When first searching the anti-parti bigotry was palpable, and still is occasionally. You may as well have been bringing up 'doodles' : ) So, there weren't too many breeders to choose from. When I got my girl's papers, I was just staring at them - couldn't compute - same grandparents each side....hmm. I was very upset, this was not the pedigree that was advertised and it turned out there was a spot DNA check, and there was apparently a mix up at the breeders - one of the drawbacks of having many puppies I guess. I contacted the breeder immediately, very upset, and while she claimed it was a mix-up she did plan to repeat the breeding. She claimed I was passing moral judgement because inbreeding is unacceptable in humans. I said it was unacceptable in humans because the Royals could see their offspring were being born with 2 digit iq's and 3 eyeballs.
To be fair a lot of 'respectable' breeders have a lot of repeats in their 5 gen pedigree that I also find unacceptable.
My girl Chloe did die early (5) but the vets were unable to determine from what, and I can't blame it on the parentage. She arrived beautifully groomed, and beautifully socialized, and I loved her to bits. 

I'm rambling here, but while I would no longer accept puppies whose parents have not been health tested, I am less certain how important show titles are to me. The other problem is that dog shows do have a 'what's fashionable' component to them, and they do tend to redirect traits in dogs. I had a beautiful, but rather square gsd 15 years ago - I do not find the exaggerated angulation of the gsd an intelligent alteration to a very athletic breed and would not want a show gsd. The bias and restrictions against parti poodles I can only see as another example of fashion fetish - if they are identical genetically, what other reason could it be. Show them, and if they don't match up conformationally, they won't be championed and will be further improved with selective breeding.

Have I gone way off topic? : )


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## lily cd re

Spoos + Ponies I agree that judges can end up fixing some undesirable traits in a breed by what they put up as the best representation of the breed standard. As you note that practice has done horrible things to GSDs, which is why Peeves is from imported German lines, nice and square in the back end.

Oops here I go continuing this thread's active life...


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## Spoos+Ponies

[Oops here I go continuing this thread's active life...[/QUOTE]

Perhaps continuing it intelligently is the best revenge : )


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## Poodlebeguiled

Spoos+Ponies said:


> I agree that the re-igniter did seem to have some 'trolly' characteristics, but as Catherine says, it is still an interesting topic, one that I have given a lot of thought to.
> 
> I haven't had any dealings with Smith poodles, but my first spoo was from a breeder who got her sire and dam from smith. I have only had poodles for 7 years now, but even in such a short period of time the availability of partis has increased dramatically. When first searching the anti-parti bigotry was palpable, and still is occasionally. You may as well have been bringing up 'doodles' : ) So, there weren't too many breeders to choose from. When I got my girl's papers, I was just staring at them - couldn't compute - same grandparents each side....hmm. I was very upset, this was not the pedigree that was advertised and it turned out there was a spot DNA check, and there was apparently a mix up at the breeders - one of the drawbacks of having many puppies I guess. I contacted the breeder immediately, very upset, and while she claimed it was a mix-up she did plan to repeat the breeding. She claimed I was passing moral judgement because inbreeding is unacceptable in humans. I said it was unacceptable in humans because the Royals could see their offspring were being born with 2 digit iq's and 3 eyeballs.
> To be fair a lot of 'respectable' breeders have a lot of repeats in their 5 gen pedigree that I also find unacceptable.
> My girl Chloe did die early (5) but the vets were unable to determine from what, and I can't blame it on the parentage. She arrived beautifully groomed, and beautifully socialized, and I loved her to bits.
> 
> I'm rambling here, but while I would no longer accept puppies whose parents have not been health tested, I am less certain how important show titles are to me. The other problem is that dog shows do have a 'what's fashionable' component to them, and they do tend to redirect traits in dogs. I had a beautiful, but rather square gsd 15 years ago - I do not find the exaggerated angulation of the gsd an intelligent alteration to a very athletic breed and would not want a show gsd. The bias and restrictions against parti poodles I can only see as another example of fashion fetish - if they are identical genetically, what other reason could it be. Show them, and if they don't match up conformationally, they won't be championed and will be further improved with selective breeding.
> 
> Have I gone way off topic? : )


I agree that show titles is not all she wrote. But someone has to keep our breeds...breeds. It is so true that the AKC has contributed to many breeds demise in that they reward extremes until things seem to start moving away from the standard. I hate what they've done to GSDs. I had a couple years ago and they was the old fashion kind...like Rin Tin Tin. But they've done some good things too with other breeds. 

I want to see that the breeder has some proof that their dogs are recognized by some kind of authority that keeps records and keeps breeds as being correct in conformation. OR....titles in sport venues or real working dogs. If I saw some dogs on a farm and they could do what they were bred to do, that would be enough for me...as long as the breeder had had these dogs for a long time and there was good longevity and they could work. That would tell me that they do have the physical (structural and health) and mental ability to do what they were bred to do...if they're a working type dog. But this person on this website has nothing to show...not good looking dogs, no mention of health testing or ability....whoever owns those dogs. I won't mention the name even though it's mentioned on the website. lol.

I don't mind discussing something when it's a rational discussion. We're talking now about what we think makes for a good breeder... I think. (?) And why this particular website's representation is not in line with most of our opinions of what some of the things are we look for. I don't know that that is feeding a troll. Irrational, ridiculous discussions that go nowhere are feeding the irrational and ridiculous, trolls or not. Right?


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## Poodlebeguiled

OMG! I can't believe all the grammatical errors. I know better. ROFLOL! They _was _the old fashion kind. I think there, I was going to talk about just one of the two dogs but changed it to "they" not "he" but forgot to change was to were. LOL. And show titles _is _not? Heck no. Show titles _are_ not. There are probably more but I'm not going there any further. LOL. :ahhhhh:


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## music0018

lily cd re said:


> Has anyone else noticed that the poster who brought this back to life has disappeared? I think we got trolled. Don't feed the troll. the ensuing discussion has many interesting points, but maybe it should be in a new thread.


Nope, I haven't disappeared…just decided to stop conversing with people who were being extremely rude to me just because I didn't share their opinion!


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