# The Tragic Tale of my New Toy Poodle :(



## Toronto_Toyseeker (Apr 16, 2012)

It is with mixed emotion that I introduce you to my new toy poodle (pic below).

She is currently nine and a half weeks old and she has a life-threatening medical condition that I was unaware of when I bought her over the net from a breeder in California. Some of you may be familiar with a heart defect (more common in toy poodles) called Patent ductus arteriosus (PDA). It is caused when a duct which is occurs in all puppies (and people) while in the womb fails to close after they are born.

I went to extreme lengths to screen my puppy before purchasing, I ensured her parents were Optigen tested for PRA, that there were no luxating patellas and that the breeder was reputable. I screened and contacted 50-60 breeders across North America (and beyond) before choosing this puppy and even insisted on calling her vet before agreeing to buy her. Unfortunately, the vet in California made a significant mistake (I am told the murmur generated by this issue is always quite loud and prominent) and just 1 week before the puppy was sent over the vet declared, in writing, that there was no cardiac murmur present and everything was 100% normal.

I have had the puppy for 48 hours now and she has been seen by three different vets (at two different practices) and one cardiologist (who performed an echocardiogram where we could see the problem in color and measure it etc) who all confirm she has a PDA.

I am completely distraught and have no idea what I will do next. I have already made a booking (for the first available date, which is June) at the best veterinary hospital in my Province (arguably in all of Canada because it is a renowned teaching hospital) for the $3500 surgical procedure to fix the problem (which I understand has an excellent success rate) but it is too soon to tell if I will be proceeding with that option.

The breeder provided the following health guarantee, I have no idea if she will be willing to honor it yet but she so far seems reasonable in responding to the situation.

*To activate your Health Guarantee, you must take your puppy to a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of the 
time the puppy is in your possession, for a "well-puppy check". You should take a stool sample from your new 
puppy to the well-puppy visit. Sundays and holidays will not be counted. 

*Should within one year your puppy be diagnosed with a life threatening problem such as heart, kidney or liver 
disorder, the puppy can be returned to seller with a 100% refund of the purchase price and the cost of shipping.

The puppy must be diagnosed by 2 different Veterinarians at different practices. Each Vet must write a statement 
that the illness was not due to the Owner to keep the puppy safe from hazards to its health.

...To return your puppy you must: 

*Return your new puppy to the Seller within 84 hours of the time of possession of the puppy by the buyer. Along 
with the puppy, buyer must provide a signed statement from 2 licensed Veterinarians at different practices, on the 
veterinarian's letterhead showing the date and time puppy was given the examination, and why he/she believed 
the puppy had a life threatening health problem before buyer received the puppy. Buyer understands at time of 
purchase that if they should return the puppy that seller that right to contact the veterinarians (before the puppy is 
returned) that issued the reports for further verbal verification before determining if a refund will be issued.​
Fortunately the puppy is not yet symptomatic whatsoever and it is not clear if/when this condition will affect her but it is, by definition very serious and life-threatening. Beyond my emotional connection to the pup, I am also concerned if I was to try to return her to the breeder she would probably be put to sleep (no one has told me this but I assume it is true).

Any thoughts or advice on this unfortunate situation would be most appreciated indeed.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so sorry you are having this devastating experience. I can only advise that you talk to your breeder immediately, if you have not already done so, and discuss with her the best way forward for all of you. The good news is that if the operation is done early, and before symptoms appear, the prognosis is very good.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

oh dear. that sounds like what happened with that other person who bought a mill puppy off the internet. pinky?

i'm sorry you have to deal with this.

i'm not sure why you think the breeder won't honor their guarantee.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What a tragedy. I am sorry you are going through this! I would expect if the puppy is returned that she will indeed be put to sleep. It is worth asking if the breeder would help you with the vet bills if you opt to not return her.

I am a little surprised an ethical and respected breeder would send a puppy to a new home completely unclipped and unscissored. I do not think your puppy has ever been clipped.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I am so sorry that you have to go through this. Impressed that you have seen so many doctors and gotten your information together so quickly. 

You might want to have a brief consultation with a lawyer to talk about where you stand and what to expect. But I would try to do the negotiating directly with the breeder. Once lawyers get involved, the costs escalate. I'm not a lawyer, but my thoughts for what they are worth:

A contract that offers a full cash refund is more generous to you than most contracts that I have seen. This makes me think that you may have a breeder who is fair and reasonable. Hopefully, she will work with you.

The contract is inconsistent. You get a 100% refund if the puppy is diagnosed within one year, but you have to return the puppy within 84 hours. I think you'd have a strong case that the one year applies. 

From what you have said, it sounds like both the breeder and her vet are liable. 

A solution that seems fair to me would be for the breeder and the vet to pay $3,500 for the surgery. You would then have to assume all responsibility going forward--they would have no further obligations to you no matter what happened. If this works for you, you might want to suggest it to the breeder and let her work out with her vet who pays what. I would think that the breeder would be willing to give a full refund and the vet would be willing to make up the difference (that's assuming that the vet does not try to maintain that there was no problem when he examined the pup), but I think it is best for them to work out who pays what. You should make it clear (nicely of course) that this offer is on the table only if it is accepted promptly and before you need to have any lawyers involved (otherwise, you don't know what approach your lawyer might want to take...). Also, I would not start the conversation with this offer. I would start with telling her what happened and listening to what she has to say. Assuming that you think that she has acted in good faith (she did not knowingly send you a sick pup), you should try to set a tone that is kind and reasonable but keep a firm focus on the facts.

You should contact the breeder asap and take detailed notes about everything that is said in every conversation. 

I hope that you can work something out with her. Let us know how it goes.


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## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

As heart wrenching as it sounds, I would try to detach emotionally and send the puppy back. If you are well off however, you could get her to pay for the surgery and then assume any further care. I would be concerned that she might cost a lot in the future. If this was so blatantly missed, what else might be lurking?


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Oh how horrible. Please do not send her back though. Even if it means you having to eat the cost of the surgery. I shudder to think of what will happen to her if you send her back. She will most probably be put down. Oh how sad as she is a gorgeous little girl.
Talk to the breeder asap and let her know what is going on and what is required to fix it but don't offer to send her back. I agree that the best solution is for the breeder and the vet who misdiagnosed to split the cost of the surgery.
Good luck.


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## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Since you have documentation of the condition and the breeder says you get cash back for such a condition, at the very least she should return your money and if you keep the little girl, you can use the money towards the surgery, if you can afford the extra costs. She might compromise and pay for 1/2 the surgery.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear your puppy is not feeling well. I hope you, the vet and your breeder would figure out something. Save all the payment records and take notes on every conversation takes place with all the vets and the breeder.

A red Toy puppy from California …. I think I can guess where it is from.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

How horrible. You did your homework and the breeder could be great - birth defects happen. You breeder seems to have a very good warranty. Although it seems unrelated I also am concerned that your puppy appears to have never been clipped as that is part of good puppy care. You will need to think long and hard on what you do next. If you decide to go ahead with the surgery will the issue be resolved or is it symptomatic of a weak, sickly puppy and if so can you meet the financial and care demands that would be placed on you? Hopefully the breeder will give you money toward the operation and that will take care of the issue.


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## lrkellly (Jan 6, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear about your puppy . These health guarantees make so little sense to me, except that they likely never have to be honoured because very few people would return a puppy...

Fairness would dictate that the breeder should cover the cost of the surgery, and you definitely should not have to return the puppy to be compensated. Not only does that neglect the emotional trauma that you have experienced, but it will also be a very stressful experience for the puppy.

The other thing I wanted to say was that many people have heart defects and they are completely cured with surgery. I actually had a heart murmur until a few years ago when it was closed with surgery. There is a very high success rate for humans, and I'm assuming it would be the same for animals. I don't think that this condition is a sign that there are other underlying health problems.

So if you decide to keep the puppy and you can afford the surgery, it is likely that your pup will live a long happy life.

Good luck.
LK


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Toronto_Toyseeker said:


> It is with mixed emotion that I introduce you to my new toy poodle (pic below).
> 
> She is currently nine and a half weeks old and she has a life-threatening medical condition that I was unaware of when I bought her over the net from a breeder in California. Some of you may be familiar with a heart defect (more common in toy poodles) called Patent ductus arteriosus (PDA). It is caused when a duct which is occurs in all puppies (and people) while in the womb fails to close after they are born...................
> 
> ...


Dear Toronto Toyseeker;
Although it has not been mentioned here yet you need to think about the dog. You will not be able to explain to the puppy why it is having surgery so you should make sure that the vet you use for surgery has experience with this surgery.
Ask specifically how many of these specific surgeries have they done. Ask how many dogs died during surgery. How many of dogs died within 2 weeks, and 1 month of the surgery of other complications. Will the dog have a normal life after the surgery or will the dog be more apt to suffer from illnesses like pneumonia. What care is required after surgery? Can you cope with the care?
You need to be aware that teaching schools often do surgeries for others to learn.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do. Knowledge is power.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

faerie said:


> oh dear. that sounds like what happened with that other person who bought a mill puppy off the internet. pinky?
> 
> i'm sorry you have to deal with this.
> 
> i'm not sure why you think the breeder won't honor their guarantee.


I recognize the backdrop of the picture. It's one of the (in!)famous red puppy mill here in California. Sigh~ I hope the OP can find the best solution to this whole thing.

I thought the OP was on the waiting list of one of the best red toy breeders in Canada.


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I am sorry for the issue you have with your new toy poodle. 

I am also a bit concerned that you have time to complain on this website when 1) you have not yet fully discussed this issue with your breeder who may come to a satisfactory resolution, and 2) determined what action you will be taking. Your breeder may be fully prepared to make restitution, may share in the cost of surgery, or may try to help in other ways. However, the only way you would know that is to resolve this with the breeder.

However, I also agree that if the pup has problems and meets the return criteria, that before you get even further attached, that you return the pup as the breeder's contract provides.

Given this pup's difficulties, I would after you have had a chance to recover, and hopefully find another toy, report the problem to the Poodle Health Registry so that it can be tracked. Poodle Health Registry 

I am not a breeder and don't know who that breeder is, however any breeder would like a chance to resolve problems before being denounced in public. Give him/her a chance.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i have a hard question. did you not want to wait thus opting to buy from one of those puppy mill breeder sites? 
if so, it is a lot what pinky went through.


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## Clicker (Apr 28, 2012)

So sorry to read about your situation. What is supposed to be an extremely exciting & happy time has turned into this. What a beautiful little puppy she is! I'm guessing it was Love at first sight which will make this even more difficult for you to decide. I hope everything works out for the best for you & your little girl. Sending my thoughts and prayers!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

More hard questions: Is it definite that she will develop the life-threatening part and how soon? Can you give her what life she has pain-free then tell her good-by when the time comes?


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## Leooonie (May 30, 2009)

I learnt briefly about this in one of my Uni modules. it is more common in miniature poodles than most other breeds and other poodles and is the most common congenital heart defect.. and is the same condition that many human babies are born with.

I have to say however... there is 60% mortality in untreated dogs. but complications are common.. and as she is so young.. the chances are greater.

I urge you to think about the puppies quality of life. if she does happen to start having symptoms, I would think about letting her 'go'.
Getting a puppy is a wonderful experience, but part of that experience is knowing what is best for the dog... and even if the time spent together is short, to keep every moment enjoyable for all parties.

I hope you can work something out with the breeder and that they are half-way decent <3


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

1st- I am so sorry you are going through this.
2nd- without fail contact the breeder immediately. I hate those "return the pup" what a load. You have a great deal of documentations in just a short time that this pup has a heart defect. Also, this is the breeders Vet's fault for not being able to diagnose this issue since 3 others have been able too in just the few days you have had your pup.
3rd- not sure what the issue is with posters about your pup not being groomed. I groom lots of poodles that the owners don't want the dog clipped like a Poodle. I even have some upset that the pup came to them with the fft all done. My own poodle I got at 4 months of age that had never been groomed except for nails. I groom the parents but none of the pups until she came in with her Dam & got groomed for the 1st time. Louisa was so awesome for her 1st groom I asked to keep her & now I compete with her in grooming competitions.

I hope all get's resolved & that without fail you post on Poodle Health Registry so that the public can be informed & decisions about future breedings can be used in a positive way.


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## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

I recognize the backdrop too, as I came across this "breeder" in my own puppy search. I didn't realize they were a puppy mill; the web site is very deceptive. 

I'm so sorry Toronto Toyseeker. You and your puppy are in my thoughts.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

According to California lemon laws for dogs (pets), if the dog is proven to be ill or to have hereditary defects, the buyer is entitled to a replacement plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog including sales tax.

The buyer may also choose a refund plus reimbursement for veterinary expenses related to certifying the dog's illness, up to the price of the dog.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Toronto_Toyseeker said:


> It is with mixed emotion that I introduce you to my new toy poodle (pic below).
> 
> She is currently nine and a half weeks old and she has a life-threatening medical condition that I was unaware of when I bought her over the net from a breeder in California. Some of you may be familiar with a heart defect (more common in toy poodles) called Patent ductus arteriosus (PDA). It is caused when a duct which is occurs in all puppies (and people) while in the womb fails to close after they are born.
> 
> ...


I am the breeder of this toy poodle. Unfortunately there is always a chance of human error. The Vet did misdiagnose this puppy. Upon talking with the owner only days afterward it was determined that she did have PDA. The owner was given the opportunity to return the puppy and receive full reimbursement for the cost of puppy and shipping. He chose to keep the puppy, and has discussed having an appt to fix the birthdefect. He did received full reimbursement for the cost of the puppy and for the cost of shipping. On the Dams next litter 1 more puppy did have PDA. I neutered all of the dogs related to the Dam, and placed them in loving homes. The puppy I owned that had the PDA was taken to UC Davis in San Diego and had her heart repaired, she recovered completely. I gave her to a loving family at no cost. She lives happily to this day. I do hope that the owner of the little girl mentioned in Poodle Forum did get her surgery, as he said he would. I trust he did. Scarlet~


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

This puppy was fully checked and verified by a Vet. Unfortunately, human error does occur. The owner did receive a full refund + shipping. He elected to keep the puppy. He told me that he would get the surgery done for her. I trust he did. Scarlet~


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

This post was 2 years ago. Glad that you resolved the issue. Too bad the OP has not updated about his pup. I hope you use another Vet that is more competent.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

how odd to pop up two years after the op first posted to reply.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Patk, I had written a response about the website and decided against it. I do that a lot! lol


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Yes, Very odd. I don't understand either. I didn't look at the date and thought it was recent post.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the other oddity i noticed is that the respondent registered this month but there is no introductory post. how on earth was she able to post without one?


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

I also thought it was recent. I thought they were talking about Scarlet fancy poodles the entire time. That is the only breeder I spoke to before purchasing Zoe and learning everything on PF.
I wasn't sure about anything when speaking with her?


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## oley (Sep 27, 2012)

3dogs said:


> This post was 2 years ago. Glad that you resolved the issue. Too bad the OP has not updated about his pup. I hope you use another Vet that is more competent.


They actually did. Here's the thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/30274-good-news-1-year-update-re-puppy-heart-prob.html


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Thank you Oley for being able to find the thread for PF. I am a new user and did not see this thread. I am very happy to know that Lexi is doing well. And yes, I did not use that Vet after that experience.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Scarlet's said:


> I am the breeder of this toy poodle. Unfortunately there is always a chance of human error. The Vet did misdiagnose this puppy. Upon talking with the owner only days afterward it was determined that she did have PDA. The owner was given the opportunity to return the puppy and receive full reimbursement for the cost of puppy and shipping. He chose to keep the puppy, and has discussed having an appt to fix the birthdefect. He did received full reimbursement for the cost of the puppy and for the cost of shipping. On the Dams next litter 1 more puppy did have PDA. I neutered all of the dogs related to the Dam, and placed them in loving homes. The puppy I owned that had the PDA was taken to UC Davis in San Diego and had her heart repaired, she recovered completely. I gave her to a loving family at no cost. She lives happily to this day. I do hope that the owner of the little girl mentioned in Poodle Forum did get her surgery, as he said he would. I trust he did. Scarlet~



Thank you Oley for finding this thread - They actually did. Here's the thread: Good News - 1 Year Update re: Puppy with heart prob
__________________


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

*Thank you Oley for finding this thread*



Scarlet's said:


> I am the breeder of this toy poodle. Unfortunately there is always a chance of human error. The Vet did misdiagnose this puppy. Upon talking with the owner only days afterward it was determined that she did have PDA. The owner was given the opportunity to return the puppy and receive full reimbursement for the cost of puppy and shipping. He chose to keep the puppy, and has discussed having an appt to fix the birthdefect. He did received full reimbursement for the cost of the puppy and for the cost of shipping. On the Dams next litter 1 more puppy did have PDA. I neutered all of the dogs related to the Dam, and placed them in loving homes. The puppy I owned that had the PDA was taken to UC Davis in San Diego and had her heart repaired, she recovered completely. I gave her to a loving family at no cost. She lives happily to this day. I do hope that the owner of the little girl mentioned in Poodle Forum did get her surgery, as he said he would. I trust he did. Scarlet~





oley said:


> They actually did. Here's the thread: http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/30274-good-news-1-year-update-re-puppy-heart-prob.html


Thank you Oley for finding this thread


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

patk said:


> how odd to pop up two years after the op first posted to reply.


Hi Patk, I am new to Poodle Forum, joined this Oct 2014.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

patk said:


> how odd to pop up two years after the op first posted to reply.


Hi Patk, I am a new user 10/2014.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

patk said:


> how odd to pop up two years after the op first posted to reply.


Hi Patk, I am happy to be brand new member Poodle Forum as of 10/14.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Scarlet's said:


> This puppy was fully checked and verified by a Vet. Unfortunately, human error does occur. The owner did receive a full refund + shipping. He elected to keep the puppy. He told me that he would get the surgery done for her. I trust he did. Scarlet~



See Oley's comments below, the owner writes about his pup 1 year later. Thank you Oley for finding this thread. Glad Lexi is doing well


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Scarlet's said:


> See Oley's comments below, the owner writes about his pup 1 year later. Thank you Oley for finding this thread. Glad Lexi is doing well


See Oley's comments below, that gives the status of Lexi 1 year later. Thank you Oley for finding this thread.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Hi Patk, a person who purchased a beautiful puppy for her mother in law told me about the posts on PF, I did not know about it. Guess it was about time to join. Very happy with the comments of those experienced people who know that birth defects happen in all living beings. Fortunately, we humans can stop the line that produced the defect.


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

As you can tell I am very new at this!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it isgreat that you joined the forum, and have got an update on the pup. And forums take a bit of getting used to - especially if there is a delay when posting!


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## Scarlet's (Oct 4, 2014)

Hello Ladies, I work. Don't have time to keep up with the Gossip column. I do what is right and that what is important to me. Thank you Oley.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

Yikes! I looked at the month, not the year of this post. Glad all turned out well.


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