# Dental problem--bad breeding/care, a toy thing, or all the above?



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

NorthJerseyGirrl said:


> She says Libby should only ever eat dry food from now on. (She's been eating a mix of dry premium kibble--mainly Orijen--and kibble coated with wet, with occasional chicken breast, scrambled egg, bits of cheese, healthy treats, and a few raw chicken bones which she enjoyed.) She nixes raw bones and foods.


One of my veterinarians (a holistic vet from Montana) has said that dry dog food is a major contributor to bad teeth! :doh:

She said the starchy, carbohydrate-y, sticky-when-damp, quality of dry kibble causes it to stick to the teeth worse than (for example) a nice raw piece of slippery chicken or beef... She told us to eat a cracker before going to bed and not brush our teeth... And the next night, eat a piece of lunch meat and not brush our teeth... and compare how they feel! So the recommendation to only eat dry food to help teeth condition seems counterintuitive to me...

There are some vets who just don't "get" the raw movement and will continue to push dry food (and even most like the food they sell at their practices) I would think chewing on raw bones would help keep teeth clean - at least "average" teeth... your pup sounds like she has other challenges with her teeth being too large and/or crowded in her tiny mouth.

The vet who volunteered her time at the humane society I managed used to tell me that small dogs have historically "horrible" teeth and it's usually because they are so crowded for space; and cavaties, decay, gingivitis, etc. can progress so much more easily than dogs with large mouths with plenty of room for everything...

It sounds like you're doing all you can for prevention, but if it were me, I'd probably research the dry food vs. raw and or other whole foods more before taking your veterinarian's opinion as gospel... 

Good luck!!


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I personally don't think wiping the teeth with a gauze dipped in dental rinse is enough. It's a good tool - it's definitely part of the process of teaching a puppy (or any dog) to be comfortable with having a finger in his mouth, around his teeth/gum, etc. But that is not a complete dental care routine.

I have seen plenty of Toy Poodles with beautiful teeth. I know some toy breeds, such as Chinese Crested, are known to have bad teeth because of the overcrowding problem but I think extra effort can definitely help. I have never bought to the idea that kibbles (no matter how high quality they are) can help clean the teeth.

I fed my dog ground raw, dehydrated raw and kibbles before he turned 7 months. He was given plenty of bully stick, nylabones and beef tendon to chew on (to help clean the teeth). I started brushing his teeth every night since he was 11 weeks old. And yet my vet brought to my attention that there was minor tartar buildup when he went in to be neutered at 7 months old! 

To be honest, I am not surprised she has tartar and recessed gum line since she didn't receive regular and proper dental care in the past 7+ months. 

But it's never too late to start! Start brushing those teeth every day. Give her bones to chew on. Add dental water additive to her water and encourage water intake. I also add PlaqueOff to his food. It's an all natural food additive that helps softening tartar/plaque and it works. I started adding that to his food and giving him RMB twice or three times a week. Now he's 2 and has a mouth of clean teeth.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I agree with Plum.. My toy has good teeth and she eats wet food.. and my mini eats kibble and if you look at her teeth crooked they get plaque build up. I think it happens more to smaller dogs BUT it really is the individual as to whether they are higher dental maintanance than another. Yeah months of neglect will cause such deterioration with certain individuals while others wont lose any teeth lol. I know how hard it is to keep their teeth clean. Just gotta stay on top of it from now on . So in a sense it is partially genetics, but in the end its the dental care that will keep teeth in good shape.


----------



## vicky2200 (Feb 14, 2012)

I would never, personally, feed my dogs a diet based on wet food. We had a mini who ate wet food on a daily basis before we got her at 8 y/o. By that time, she was missing a lot of teeth and what was left, was not fixable. She had to stay on moist, not wet, food, because she couldn't eat anything else. By the time she died, when she was 16, she had half a tooth  I've had much better success with dry food. If you feed a homemade diet, brushing is definitely advisable. 

That being said, by 11 months old, even if you never looked at her teeth let alone brush them, there shouldn't be that much damage (caused by you.) So don't feel bad. Personally, I'd want a second opinion about the teeth, since you said they look fine to you (other than being big.)


----------



## Ruscha_Baby (May 22, 2011)

My 1 year old toy eats RMB's and crunches bones at least twice daily. Her teeth are fantastic and her breath is sweet. IMO, all dogs should stay well away from anything processed, including kibble and canned rubbish.


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

My dog is 7 and came to me needing her teeth cleaned. I fed her RMB's and gave her bully sticks and within 3 months her teeth no longer needed cleaning. They continue to look better every week. She now only has just a little bit of brown stain right at the gum line, not much at all. I think that will be gone soon.


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks to all for the replies. I've been slow to respond because I'm still overwhelmed. Brushing and new feeding regimen start tonight (I was waiting for her pain and trauma from the dental visit to subside). I plan to get the X-rays from this exam so I can get a second opinion. I've ordered some Plaqueoff. About the food, there is such a stark difference between the anti-raw and anti-bone attitude of all the vets i've asked and the view of owners/breeders here that I am torn. A bit of systematic experimentation may be in order. 

Clarifications: what is a moist as opposed to wet diet? And if I am doing this intense dental regimen, shouldn't it buy me some flexibility about what I feed her?

Thanks again, everyone.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have a toy, he will be two in October. The vet always comments on his lovely bite and says that his teeth are in perfect shape - no tartar. I feed raw. With my Aussie he was kibble fed and his teeth would get tartar build up. Once I started him on raw bones he went from the vet recommending that he go under to get a tooth cleaning to the vet saying his teeth looked great except for some left over staining. I don't agree with the kibble advice. I think it is probably a genentic issue. I have a friend who is very careful with brushing ect. but every time he goes to the dentist he will have 16 or 17 cavities - he just has soft teeth. I know it is hard to go against the advice of the vet but I would continue raw bones. I do think if your dogs teeth are that bad your regular vet should have noticed it - receeding gums and the like are relatively easy to identify. I think a 2nd opinion is a good idea.


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Thank you. Yes... I have had at least three vets including the dental specialist, as well as my breeder, tell me not to feed raw, so it is difficult. Two of them warned about safety issues, both salmonella and bone fragments causing choking. I've given my pup a few raw chicken bones without a problem but I'm still very nervous about it. 

So do you feed raw only? And do you take small-breed precautions since your dog is a toy?

I did decide to switch vets as the one I was using simply did not make dental care a priority... And as you say, she should at the very least have spotted the receding gums.


----------



## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

My vet is really vigilant about dental problems but he strongly recommended Science Diet Dental kibble and strongly advised against feeding raw; at first I thought we'd feed the dental kibble for a week a month; however, now I realize it takes a long time to adapt to a new food so we haven't done that. And Science Diet isn't really rated that well as a dog food so I don't want to feed that exclusively. So we just brush, feed bones and keep an eye on their teeth.


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks. I don't want to feed that stuff either. 

Can anyone clarify: if several adult teeth have to be extracted because of overcrowding, is that an indication that the dog had a bad mouth (so to speak) to begin with? Or is that just something even poodles with good teeth go through ordinarily? I know (I think) about baby teeth needing to be removed if they don't exit voluntarily. Not sure about permanent teeth.


----------



## KristaLynn (Mar 22, 2012)

Jewel's a rescued poodle mix and my vet did a dental at the same time as a spay. He removed a couple of her teeth due to over-crowding, he told me it would help prevent tartar build-up to not have so many teeth crowded together. I believe he only took 2...or two from the bottom and two from the top something small like that. She still looks like she has a full mouth of teeth.

But she's got crazy tartar build up again less than two years after the cleaning. Obviously she's not got the best breeding behind her but I don't know if that's it.


----------



## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

Thanks. That's somewhat reassuring. Some of my dog's front teeth may have to go, too. I'm glad to know it may not be noticeable.


----------



## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I brush my SPOO's teeth when I brush her coat seriously which is once a week. She gets a daily brush also but that one is concentrated on the areas behind the elbows where she can mat. I did this faithfully with my other dogs and that seemed to work well. There are do toothpastes that are meat flavored so she cooperates.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes, I exclusively feed raw except for training treats. For training treats I grill chicken or pork or occasionally I give dried buffalo bits or fjm's liver cake. I feed Aunt Jennie which is a high quality commercial raw and supplement with raw chicken and turkey necks and chicken gizzards and hearts in case I have fed too much bone and need to soften things up. I feel it is especially important to pack in the nutrients for such a small dog (Swizzle is almost 6 pounds.)


----------

