# Biting me, not the toy



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Have you tried soaking your arms and hands in bitter spray? Honestly, at that age if he is still hurting you on purpose, I think a behaviorist is needed.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

Starla said:


> Have you tried soaking your arms and hands in bitter spray? Honestly, at that age if he is still hurting you on purpose, I think a behaviorist is needed.


I haven't tried that, no, but heck I'm willing to give it a shot. 

I'm not quite ready to make the jump to a behaviorist since his biting everywhere else is turning a corner and reducing massively or has all out stopped - but it's not something I'm discounting entirely. I taught him this behavior by reinforcing it (the yelping, saying ow, etc), didn't realize it when I was doing it, but that's what happened. 

He thinks he's playing, and my hand/arm is way more rewarding to him than the toy. My current thought to try (popped up at work today so I haven't had the chance to try it) is increase the toy value - crinkle, real fur, squeaker, stuffed with food, etc - and somehow decrease the value of my arms which I didn't have an idea for. Bitter spray sounds like a good starting point.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

My kids accidentally taught Loki that biting them is fun. What has worked with him it yelling bully and going to the closest room and closing the door. Stay in there for a couple of minutes. If he bites again, repeat. He is trying to get them to throw toys for him to chase, but they are always cooperative. P
He also turns into a bitey monster when he needs to go to the bathroom and I am not where he thinks I need to be to hear the bells. Usually it is when I am trying to get my younger child to take a bath or got to bed. I am upstairs so he wants me to go downstairs so he can ring the bells.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Snowscale said:


> Going dead/not reacting - tried it and got sliced up when he was teething. It's hard to not react when you're bruised and bleeding.


This is what I would be doing and doing it consistently.

I also wonder if your boy has a lot of pent up frustration. Does being crated at 5am mean he goes straight from sleep to crate? What’s the routine there? And where does he sleep at night?

Peggy was very mouthy until probably around her first birthday, and even after that could still sometimes forget and use her mouth when excited. It was hard to keep being consistent, when it felt like it wasn’t working, but we stuck with it until eventually something clicked. Teeth making contact with a human has to = all energy drained from moment. That means fun energy, excited energy, angry energy, _all_ energy. And if the mouthing ramps up—assuming you’re not in physical danger—it becomes even more important to stay a boring statue, otherwise a smart poodle will learn that doubling down on mouthing eventually provokes a response, and will be quicker to escalate.

If you _are_ in physical danger, you need a behaviourist. And either way I think you need to stop playing tug/rehearsing this behaviour until your puppy matures a little.

There were things we just couldn’t do with adolescent Peggy. Repetitive games of fetch, for example, got her way too amped up and could affect her stress levels for days after. It was also extremely important she had daily off-leash time to zoom/drain her battery, especially in the evening.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Is he getting any free running, off leash time? Annie, also an apartment dog at that age, needed to run off leash at least twice a week to maintain both of our sanity. She just couldn't control herself without that outlet. 

I personally like leaving the room and closing the door in the dogs face. I usually said 'ow!' in my best former drama kid voice, and stomped off into the bathroom, with very dramatic cold shoulder/face averted body language. It allows both the human and the dog some time to destress and calm down. Bites hurt, it's easy to be angry and I'm not a good enough person to stand still without reaction while being bit! My rule was generally if I had to disappear into the bathroom 2x, it was time for the puppy to have a nap in her crate, she was overtired and out of control. Annie quickly learned the rules about human acceptable play when i started to do that. 

Annie, at about that age, also decided it was a good idea to hop and bite my arm when I was slow about throwing her favourite toy (a Jolly ball soccer ball). Ouch! I ended up doing a lot of impulse control with toys work with her. So I'd ask her to sit, then throw the ball. No sit, no throw. She had to back off and sit before I even picked up the toy. And if she bit me, game over, inside in a huff. 

I still play 'red light, green light' with her - periodically I ask for a sit, down, etc, when we are playing. If she can't manage that, it's time to end play, she has lost impulse control. It's pretty rare now that I have to stop with her as an adult, but was very common with her as an adolescent. The idea is to introduce obedience into fun activities so the dog learns how to quickly switch between happy and excited and being in control. 

It is, unfortunately, harder and more work to break an established habit/pattern.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

One thing that's been mentioned here before that I noticed in your post is the 2 miles per day including jogging seems a bit high for unfinished joints, and could be contributing to keeping him in an over -amped state. I would stop going 2 and more miles and dial exercise back so he can do more sniffy walking but also spend more time learning how to relax. Maybe bring an ex-pen into the picture, with a bed, water, and a nice chewie treat and teach him to settle.

@PeggyTheParti explains this so very well. Also search here for the safe puppy exercise chart from Puppy Culture, I think it is.

And welcome 😊; I am sure you can get things lined out.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Why does he have to play tug for sports? Is is something he can learn once he is older and has some control?


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## beowoof (Dec 6, 2021)

poodles are notoriously mouthy puppies and Kirby was lovingly named a little land shark at that age, which he did eventually grow out of but he still loses his little puppy mind from time to time. if possible, i would consider trying to control the environment during play time. is there a baby gate or ex-pen that can be set up to create a barrier between you and the puppy? additionally i found longer toys were better for keeping my limbs away from the sharknado himself. something like a long braided piece of fleece worked well for us. 









it took several months for Kirby to learn that mouthing = play time over, a habit that has not fully extinguished because some of my family members insist on teasing them with their hands, much to my chagrin. what strikes me as noteworthy is that he's drawing blood, indicating that he's super aroused. puppies need a LOT of sleep, though i found (and still find) Kirby at his mouthiest fresh out of the crate when i get back from work. activities like chewing and licking a yummy chew or a lickimat in his pen helped get him through a phase i genuinely thought would never end. i'd focus on asking your trainer for settling behaviours/impulse control games like "it's yer choice" or karen pryor's "relaxation protocol" to put that smart poodle brain to work without engaging in mouthing or biting. it gets better, with time and effort, i promise.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Does being crated at 5am mean he goes straight from sleep to crate? What’s the routine there? And where does he sleep at night?


Yes, mostly he just gets up to potty, has a small snack and a drink, and back to sleep. I usually get home to a yawning, stretching puppy. He's definitely bored and ready to play when I get home but his crate is the safest spot for him during the day. In some fashion or another, if I'm not asleep or at work, I'm doing something with him. Frequently we're out and about until dark or after - granted out and about might be sitting at the park practicing settling next to the tennis court or just letting him run on a long line. I get about an hour or two if I want to be up late to myself + the 20-ish minutes he's crated while I eat dinner.

As far as me being in danger, no, I don't think so. The cuts I mentioned at less than a quarter inch long, not deep, and as much my fault as his because I pulled my hand away. I definitely got cut up worse when his adult canines were just beginning to erupt but he still had his baby teeth. Maximum landshark with a mouth full of needles. We've come a very long way since then but this specific behavior has proven to be the most persistent - largely because it's self reinforcing I think.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Is he getting any free running, off leash time?
> ...
> I ended up doing a lot of impulse control with toys work with her... The idea is to introduce obedience into fun activities so the dog learns how to quickly switch between happy and excited and being in control.


We don't have much access to off leash areas and while I was taking him to the park to run on a long line, we've been seeing a LOT of off leash dogs there lately and I'm reluctant to risk an encounter with a stray/loose dog many of whom are pit/bully types. So we haven't been going as much. 

Impulse control is something we've been making progress on in addition to training a default behavior - which while not the same I think helps/can work together well. I'm reading through When Pigs Fly and Control Unleashed: Reactive to Relaxed and both have been great resources. His threshold when it comes to my hands is SUPER low and I've been struggling to find a that line where we're nudging the threshold but not crossing it.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

Streetcar said:


> One thing that's been mentioned here before that I noticed in your post is the 2 miles per day including jogging seems a bit high for unfinished joints, and could be contributing to keeping him in an over -amped state. I would stop going 2 and more miles and dial exercise back so he can do more sniffy walking but also spend more time learning how to relax. Maybe bring an ex-pen into the picture, with a bed, water, and a nice chewie treat and teach him to settle.


I appreciate your concern but my vet is happy with the exercise he's getting. I'm more concerned with his jumping out of my bed or trying to race down the stairs, both things I've taken steps to prevent.

As far as him being amped up after walks, that's definitely an issue if we go places with lots of other dogs, so for now we try to avoid that, which unfortunately cuts out a very large, very nice park. Our obedience trainer gave us some great tips a couple weeks ago on settling and he's made great progress but definitely still needs work so it's a continued effort.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

reraven123 said:


> Why does he have to play tug for sports? Is is something he can learn once he is older and has some control?


One of the main sports we're aiming for is IGP. If we only ever played tug at practice, he'd do great, he doesn't bite at anyone else's hands so if I'm holding the leash while someone else holds the tug, he's great. I've inadvertently taught him my hands are very fun and now I need to find a way to teach him that's actually not true, but that the tug is a blast.


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## Brownie_mom (Dec 1, 2020)

I had issues with Ruger biting me, and only me. He was really nice with strangers, dogs in the park etc. Everyone though that he was the sweetest boy. But yet, he would bite me for fun. Not sure what I did wrong, but something triggered it. I hired a personal trainer and she advised an electric color. Not to shock him, but instead to use the vibrate function. So for several days I had that color on him and used the vibrate when he would attempt to bite. That worked really nice. He hated the vibrate and as soon as he noted that I am going after the remote his behavior changed to the better. Now, if he does not behave, all I have to do is to show him that color, and he gets the message. I also used it to teach him to come to me without thinking too much of it. Before he would look at me when he heard the command and think if he should obey it or not. Now he runs from enywere in the yard, regardless of how fun is whatever he was doing there. It may be not for everyone, but worked well for my dog.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Snowscale said:


> Yes, mostly he just gets up to potty, has a small snack and a drink, and back to sleep. I usually get home to a yawning, stretching puppy. He's definitely bored and ready to play when I get home but his crate is the safest spot for him during the day. In some fashion or another, if I'm not asleep or at work, I'm doing something with him. Frequently we're out and about until dark or after - granted out and about might be sitting at the park practicing settling next to the tennis court or just letting him run on a long line. I get about an hour or two if I want to be up late to myself + the 20-ish minutes he's crated while I eat dinner.


So what I’m seeing is he’s essentially crated from 9pm until 2:30pm, and then at 2:30pm it’s go, go, go until bedtime?

At that age, Peggy needed a lot of rest with fairly short periods of activity. By the end of a walk, for example, her impulse control would noticeably decline. This is when she was much more likely to jump on a kind stranger who wanted to say hello, or even mouth them excitedly.

Now that she’s more mature, this pattern is mostly reversed. She mellows with exercise/activity. But it was hard through adolescence to get the balance and timing right. We had many good outings that we pushed _just a little too far_ and ended up ending on a bad note. Perhaps you’re seeing something similar?

I feel like your simplest solution is to just stop playing the games that invite biting. It’s not a permanent thing, but management is so helpful during adolescence. Not only will you save your sanity by picking your battles, things he can’t handle now are almost guaranteed to be much easier with maturity.

I remember getting so frustrated because Peggy kept destroying her toy baskets. I cycled through a bunch of different types before saying forget it, no more. Recently I found my favourite stuffed in a closet and decided to try it again. She hasn’t so much as licked it. Just digs around for the toy she wants and trots away to play. Did I train her not to chew her basket? Nope. I literally just put it away for a while.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

beowoof said:


> Is there a baby gate or ex-pen that can be set up to create a barrier between you and the puppy?
> ...
> i'd focus on asking your trainer for settling behaviours/impulse control games like "it's yer choice" or karen pryor's "relaxation protocol" to put that smart poodle brain to work without engaging in mouthing or biting.


This is gonna sound really dumb but that didn't even occur to me to use his ex-pen and just play over it 🤦 I'm definitely going to try that, thank you. It'd remove the chase from me disengaging which I think would be immensely helpful.

I'm going to ask our trainer tomorrow for help with this specific thing. They've been immensely helpful with his impulse control and biting otherwise and he's improved a lot. I'm planning on taking a tug with us to hopefully demonstrate what I mean, but I don't know that he'll replicate the behavior there.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Snowscale said:


> This is gonna sound really dumb but that didn't even occur to me to use his ex-pen and just play over it 🤦


I would not recommend doing this. You want him to be rewarded for staying back from that barrier, not engaging with it.

But you can definitely use the x-pen for quick removals of yourself and the fun. Count to 30 and return. If teeth touch skin again, game over.


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## beowoof (Dec 6, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I would not recommend doing this. You want him to be rewarded for staying back from that barrier, not engaging with it.
> 
> But you can definitely use the x-pen for quick removals of yourself and the fun. Count to 30 and return. If teeth touch skin again, game over.


i agree with Peggy, when Kirby was around this age i would only play tug in an x-pen or somewhere i could quickly slip behind a gate or barrier. i think what i was trying to say earlier is use the environment to your advantage, i picked a phrase "bitey boy" which i said after i felt teeth during play time, before hopping over the x-pen or baby gate and taking a time out. after 2-3 strikes, i'd say "ALL DONE" cheerfully and remove the game or toy completely. it took several months but Kirby did in fact get there and while he has his moments of mouthiness he hasn't broken skin since he was a tiny puppy. the barrier is meant as a way for you to take a minute, catch your breath and figure out the next step, not an encouragement to knock it over or play through it.



Brownie_mom said:


> I had issues with Ruger biting me, and only me. He was really nice with strangers, dogs in the park etc. Everyone though that he was the sweetest boy. But yet, he would bite me for fun. Not sure what I did wrong, but something triggered it. I hired a personal trainer and she advised an electric color. Not to shock him, but instead to use the vibrate function. So for several days I had that color on him and used the vibrate when he would attempt to bite. That worked really nice.


i've heard (anecdotally) from my circle of friends and family people who have gone this route and had it go considerably worse and cause MORE issues over time. i think given that adolescence is a topsy-turvy time (neurologically, physically, emotionally), i'd go the approach @PeggyTheParti suggested: take a break from tugs and play that is too exciting/stimulating for a short while rather than provide a physical punishment via vibrating collar. i would personally prefer to take a break from playing over-arousing games rather than create new problems via a shock collar which is risky and potentially can cause permanent harm.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Snowscale said:


> We don't have much access to off leash areas and while I was taking him to the park to run on a long line, we've been seeing a LOT of off leash dogs there lately and I'm reluctant to risk an encounter with a stray/loose dog many of whom are pit/bully types. So we haven't been going as much.
> 
> Impulse control is something we've been making progress on in addition to training a default behavior - which while not the same I think helps/can work together well. I'm reading through When Pigs Fly and Control Unleashed: Reactive to Relaxed and both have been great resources. His threshold when it comes to my hands is SUPER low and I've been struggling to find a that line where we're nudging the threshold but not crossing it.


Do you have a car? I used to drive quite a distance sometimes to find a safe space.

It might also help to try "off" times - for example, I used to go to the dog park when there was strong wind and blowing snow, or absolutely soaking rain, even though it definitely wasn't a safe space at peak times. The dogs who were out in terrible weather tended to have devoted owners, and be pretty well behaved.

Not sure where you are, but I know some users rent out Sniffspots to get a safe yard to play in occasionally. I had no sniffspots nearby, but found looking at google maps on satellite view helped me find a few abandoned commercial lots/fields that were not occupied. I also used a long line in big parking lots for closed commercial businesses after dark, and played ball.

At about that age I was walking Annie 3-4 times per day, 10-45 min at a time, and she practically sizzled until I let her run. When we came home, she had so much better impulse control and was so much easier to live with.

I totally understand the issues with offleash unpredictable other dogs  There are way too many where I live.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I totally understand the issues with offleash unpredictable other dogs  There are way too many where I live.


Same here. Definitely creates challenges. We’re lucky to have a fenced yard and also a trainer who let us use her huge property for weekly play sessions. Otherwise we’d have gone the Sniff Spot route.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> So what I’m seeing is he’s essentially crated from 9pm until 2:30pm, and then at 2:30pm it’s go, go, go until bedtime?
> ...
> We had many good outings that we pushed _just a little too far_ and ended up ending on a bad note. Perhaps you’re seeing something similar?
> 
> I feel like your simplest solution is to just stop playing the games that invite biting. It’s not a permanent thing, but management is so helpful during adolescence. Not only will you save your sanity by picking your battles, things he can’t handle now are almost guaranteed to be much easier with maturity.


The shift is unfortunately is non negotiable and I can't reasonably get up earlier than I already do. I'm fighting a delayed circadian rhythm as is. I don't love it. 

For a more detailed look days where he behaves the best look more like I get home at 2:30, short walk around the complex to stretch his legs and then usually shaping something fun for his lunch and then settling and occasional bits of play (like I can toss his soft ball inside a couple times and he stays pretty chill). He gets chews here, and part of this is where we work on counter conditioning his crate. He lays down with it open and gets something super tasty for laying down and relaxing - this maybe takes two minutes and is done max three times. He gets settle time or play by himself while I cook dinner. A bit of time on the grooming table, trimming nails or brushing a leg with lots of rewards because he's touchy about his front legs. And then after my dinner is his big walk which is on and off super focused on me heeling, doing sits and downs and little recalls, and sniffing at the end of his leash. We get back from that and he generally settles after he gets a drink and either chews on a nylabone or other toy or he snuggles up to me on the couch.

I have definitely noticed if I try to make an entire afternoon of going out, he's a downright pill by the end of it, so that's been cut back a lot. But it's something we have done and it contributes to his behavior so it was worth mentioning. I didn't make it clear at all that I'm trying to do the go go go less though and allow him unwind time between stimulating stuff. 

And about the ex-pen, that makes total sense to use it the way you said, not play over the top.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Sounds like you’re on the right track.  Just steer clear of the quick-fix mentality so you don’t inadvertently create new problems.

Redirection, calm disengagement, and consistent reinforcement of desired behaviour is how we got through adolescence with our super energetically sensitive girl. And by “energetically sensitive” I mean we could be having the best class ever, so good that Peggy’s being used as the demo dog, and then one exclamation or arms flung into the air to make a point and our poodle would would shoot up into the air, tuck tail, and start running in silly circles.  Always good for a laugh, but boy was it exhausting. The upside is my husband and I learned to be way more chill. And a dog who can be wound up fast like that actually can be so fun for training. Just needs a little maturity.

For impulse control, we made huge progress with quick rewards. Sitting for a toy, for example, meant the toy went soaring through the air _instantly,_ the moment her bum touched the floor. Same with four paws on the floor for greeting: A treat would shoot out from the hip, straight into her mouth. We built duration verrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly, so as to not antagonize her or inadvertently flip the crazy poodle switch. That’s something I learned from an old Poodle Forum member and oh boy did it ever help us.


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## Snowscale (2 mo ago)

Given that we've already had a bad experience with a trainer who slapped a prong on every dog in the class, I'm leery of quick fixes even though they seem tempting in moments of frustration. I'm all for balanced training but not for where he is right now.

Quick rewards have gotten us a lot so far, and oddly enough /not/ using the clicker for settling behaviors as it winds him up, and I'm getting better about having rewards always on me. He's my first dog that I'm 100% responsible for, and already the best behaved, just with an issue I haven't dealt with before.

I did buy a couple rabbit hides today on the way home for a project and decided to let him play with one and it turned into a very nice game of tug. He accidently grazed my fingers once but that was it. I think leaving tug with me until he's older and calmer is a good idea, but I thought it was interesting he was so into the hide vs one of his fabric toys. I will, however, need another hide as that one is in pieces 😂


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

My suggestions are these:

1. Do not play games with him that encourage biting. No chase, hide and seek, tug, or fetch.
2. If he bites you, completely end the play session. Remove yourself if needed.
3. His unstructured play time does not necessarily have to involve you other than you holding his leash if you're outside. My puppy's unstructured play is exploring, gamboling about, and _sometimes_ he will engage me in play. 
4. Try offering him some more breaks or break up that big play session at the end of the day into multiple shorter sessions. My Jasper will be 7 months old next week and he still needs frequent naps. If he gets too worked up or fights through a nap time, he becomes wild. It is important to enforce those rest times. A biscuit in his crate usually led to a sleeping puppy. 
5. A 2 mile leashed walk/jog may be too much for a growing puppy. After having a dog with poor hips and severe mobility issues, I did a lot of research on helping Jasper grow and develop to hopefully avoid these issues. Repetitive motions and exercise on hard surfaces can affect joints later on. If possible, find a safe place to give your pup some off leash or longline exercise. If not, make sure you go at your puppy's pace, which doesn't always feel like exercise to a person.

Good luck!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I know you said your goal is IGP. Two things come to mind. Sometimes a dog isn't mature enough to handle certain activities in a sport. Responsible agility trainers won't start young dogs jumping until the dog is physically mature. Perhaps your dog needs a similar pause on tug play for IGP until he is mentally mature enough to understand not to bite you.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Just stop playing when he gets bitey. He wants to engage with you, and too rough is no fun. No fun means no engagement.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I sympathize with wanting your dog to be able to engage a certain way with a toy for training purposes. My dog will play tug at home and in certain contexts, but toys aren't high value enough in a training class context to use as a reward yet, unless they are very exciting/novel - and even then, they are only interesting enough to keep her attention for a little while. I'd love to be able to use a tug as a reward in agility but it will only work if I am able to build her drive for and the value of toys in different contexts.
It sounds like overarousal and that your dog is getting too wound up by tug. It is also possible that the tug toy has become a cue for the bitey game. If that's the case, changing the kind of toys or how you physically initiate the game could be something to try. You could teach him to 'touch' the toy, shape holding it in his mouth and dropping it, and finally tugging it gently, before building back up to vigorous tugging. That might mean that you make play/tug way less exciting for a time, while your dog learns to build self control.


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