# Normal Standard Pup Behavior?



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

We have an almost 15 week old Standard pup that we brought home at 9 weeks. When we first brought him home, I immediately noticed he was very food motivated - he inhales it and tried to bite my hands when I pulled it away. I have since broken him of this by putting my hand in his food and taking it away and he doesn't do this anymore. The real issues with jumping and biting remain. 

I have a two year old daughter and another Senior Standard who is 11.5 years old that I cannot leave in same room with the pup, even with a lead on because he pulls toward them so quickly and strongly now trying to lunge and jump. He knocked down my daughter the first week home, lunged and pushed her flat on her back and I swear his mouth was open, like he was trying to bite her neck/face but I couldn't tell for certain from my angle. The other day, she was standing at the baby gate while he and I were in the kitchen and he jumped toward her head with such force, he almost cleared the gate, however thankfully didn't as he bounced off and back onto the floor. My sweet senior guy has had IVDD issues for the past year and has difficulty moving quickly. He barked at him a few times when we first took the puppy home, in trying put him in his place but has since given up since the puppy jumped on him with his two front paws up before I could tug on his lead to stop it and he let out a cry like a baby. The pup tries to jump and lunge at him whenever we walk past my senior laying on his bed. 

When I let him out of the kitchen to play one on one while my husband is at work and daughter and senior are in another room, he literally jumps and lunges at all parts of my body, hands, arms, legs, butt, and stomach today, biting HARD! I tried yelping the second week he was home, but soon after doing this he peed on my bed so I definitely think he is trying to be the leader in this house. I have emailed the breeder to which she has replied the puppy was submissive to my dog during our initial visit which is simply not true because he wouldn't go near the puppy for us to even determine that. This concern wasn't brought up then anyway because the puppy was very calm during this visit being held mostly held by the breeder and myself. 

I got my senior guy as a 10 week old and he was the easiest, sweetest puppy ever. I also grew up with two Standards and they were not aggressive like this as puppies. I have talked to a couple of trainers now and they have said there is no such thing as a dominant dog, however I find that extremely hard to believe because this pup and my last are like night and day temperament-wise. My question is; is this normal Standard Poodle Puppy behavior and should I try to work with this guy or return him to the breeder (for only a partial refund now). At this point, I just think it may be too risky with my sweet old guy and young little gal in the house.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds pretty normal to me, but I wonder if you are really in the right place to deal with typically rambunctious puppy shenanigans at the moment. Managing a large breed puppy around an elderly dog with spinal issues and a toddler is going to be hard work and risky for at least the first 6-18 months, requiring constant supervision and care. It doesn't sound as if any of you are enjoying it much, not least the puppy. I don't think he is being "dominant", just a typically obnoxious puppy, but I think you should return him to his breeder while he is still young enough to find a good home that is a better fit. I would let your old guy live out his twilight years in peace, and think about a puppy - or young adult - when your daughter is a little older.


----------



## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

It sounds like you got an energetic puppy. When chose our spoo pup Matteo, we were conscious of choosing a pup that would match our Luca, a tpoo. We needed a calm, but confident pup. However, puppy behaviour is awful landshark attitude with alot of " me first, me too" thrown in as spice.
11.3 years ago, you most likely didn't have a toddler and a senior dog with health issues. So you had alot of time to devote to your pup. Now your attention is divided and maybe the pup just isn't getting enough attention and is therefore trying to bring you attention to that. It's the most formative months in the dog's life, just as it's the most formative years in your daughter's. What you put in, you get out.

The trainers you have spoken to are right. Former dominance theories are bollocks. The pup will do anything possible to please you and himself. He just needs consistent guidance. Just like a toddler.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

SunnySam said:


> I have talked to a couple of trainers now and they have said there is no such thing as a dominant dog, however I find that extremely hard to believe because this pup and my last are like night and day temperament-wise.


"Alpha/Dominance/Boss" theory was based on faulty research in the 1930's and 40's by a behaviorist who was studying captive wolves. Not only has that theory been debunked for wolves, it ignores the fact that dogs and wolves are diverged species. This happened anywhere from around 10,000 to (probably well over) 40,000 years ago. Humans and dogs have been co-evolving in that time. It's been observed that dogs will be more inclined to "follow the friendliest".

Temperament is likely to vary a great deal, however. I don't hear bad temperament in your description. I hear rambunctious poodle puppy. In Volhard temperament testing, he sounds like he's 2s and 3s. Your older boy, unless your memory might be glossing over his early days with your family (mine sure did), sounds like he was 3s and 4s.

You have more work than you anticipated if you plan to keep him, but it will almost always get better. If this isn't the right time for that, then it might be best to return him.

Do you keep him on a schedule for eating, sleeping, playing, napping, training, play, exercise?
What kind of training have you been doing with him?
Do you restrict his access by using an expen/crate/tether unless you're actively engaging with him?

Labeling "aggressive" is counter-productive and inaccurate. This colors your view of him which can affect how you engage with him and then a feedback loop is created, usually a downward spiral for all.

He's a puppy who is different than you expected. Using the management tools will give you all a break.

A recent short thread on this (more if you search the forum for "biting", "land shark", "overwrought toddler", keywords on those lines and you'll see you're not alone in this.
(14) SPoo Puppy aka The Shark! | Poodle Forum


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, @SunnySam. I would give this a read:



https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf



And if implementing these methods immediately doesn’t feel doable to you, I would do as fjm suggested and let him find a home that’s a better fit. Now’s the time for that, not 6 months down the road when he’s in the thick of adolescence.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. Please don’t put your hand into his bowl and take his food anymore. You’re teaching him that humans can’t be trusted. This is especially dangerous with a toddler in the home. 

Your pup needs to know that a hand approaching his food means even _more_ yummy things are coming, not that he’s about to have a precious resource taken from him. Just because he’s tolerating your actions now, doesn’t mean he’ll still be okay with them a month or a year from now.

Some common myths about resource guarding, excerpted from Resource Guarding – How to Teach Your Dog to Share | Grisha Stewart:

_Resource guarding is abnormal behavior._
_Resource guarding is a symptom of “dominance” or “pushiness.”_
_Resource guarding is the result of “spoiling” a dog._
_“So if the answer is not to ‘dominate’ your dog, then what is it? Simple. *Make your puppy or dog understand that the approach of a human to his food, toys, space, etc. is a Good Thing.*”_


----------



## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

Not only was the alpha dog theory debunked, my understanding is that the lead scientist who claimed it was a thing retracted the theory himself. 

You’ve got some excellent guidance from everyone above. A schedule for pup and enforced naps would be super valuable. And oh gosh yeah please research into the resource guarding PtP shared above. This is one area where I have to beg to disagree with Zac George, and his “prevention” methods sound an awful lot like what you are doing.

Personally I can’t fathom training a puppy with a two year old human at home, just given that it would feel like having twins for me. And that is a lot. I don’t say that to be discouraging but rather to say a) to each their own and b) it’s important to be very pragmatic and know it’ll take some work!

It is really critical with our pups and human children that we resist labeling. At the end of the day, our behaviours occur in environmental and relational contexts. This means, as Rose said so eloquently, that how you perceive them will impact how you treat them, and in turn how they respond. Pups have all sorts of personalities and temperaments, as do human children.

Do you have a pic of your guy? And what’s his name? What’s your older standard’s name? Can we see and celebrate them?


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I recently had the opportunity to spend time with my 3 year old standard and a not quite 2 year old kid. 

I have no idea how people raise puppies and toddlers together. My girl was very gentle and good, but it took her a ton of self control to be polite with the baby, and she really needed her outdoor stress breaks to run around and burn off steam. 

As a puppy? She was a really easy puppy but keeping her and the baby safe and separated would have been a full time job. 

Anyway - all of this sounds like a fairly normal silly bouncy standard poodle puppy. Not the easiest, not the most difficult, but definitely a handful! 

I always ask this - but is he getting enough sleep? My sweet, perfect puppy was a biting, jumping hellbeast when she needed a nap. Rather like an overtired toddler, puppies need A LOT of sleep and quickly lose all self control when tired. X pens and crates are wonderful things.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

He sounds like a normal bored poodle puppy. Poodles puppies are very active, very mouthy, and very playful. They think the world exists for their entertainment, and they can become very obnoxious when the world isn't delivering the fun on their schedule.

I agree that dominance theory is not valid, and following it will get you into all kinds of trouble. A bunch of wolves that weren't related were confined together in what was effectively a penal colony for canines. Occasionally, just as in any such situation, tensions would build to the point where one wolf would shiv another wolf. A normal wolf pack is a family. The members normally follow the lead of a smart capable leader, much as a human family defers to a wise elder. Think about how the kitchen works when a family comes together for Thanksgiving dinner. Yes, I could punch out my elderly aunt and force everybody use my green bean casserole recipe. But why would I? A puppy isn't looking to take over your family any more than you are looking to kick your aunt out of her house over a recipe quarrel at Thanksgiving.

I also agree that I wouldn't pointlessly mess with the food bowl or take things away just to prove I can. It's likely to be counterproductive. Do you randomly grab your toddler's dinner just to prove you are the alpha mom? Resource guarding is partially genetic and partially trained. A dog which isn't prone to resource guarding won't learn anything from having you mess with the food bowl. All you are doing is pointlessly annoying the dog. A dog which IS prone to resource guarding will learn that you are a threat to his food bowl. He will become increasingly edgy as you move in on the bowl, and eventually you will have an unpleasant incident. @PeggyTheParti has a thread on dealing with her dog's resource guarding tendencies. It is worth reading. In so far as I mess with my dog's bowls at meal times, I mostly just put more food into the bowl. Thus my presence and handling of the bowl is always a good thing.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You already have a lot of good thoughts here. I will add some emphasis. Your pup is high energy but normal. However it sounds like you are feeling stress and picking up on that stress will amplify the pup's feelings and inappropriate behaviors. If you are truly calm your pup will be calmer in all likelihood. I never recommend to people to yelp when their puppy makes nip contact. I think it makes an already amped up pup even more excited. I recommend folding your arms to protect your hands and turning your back on the pup. If that doesn't work then give the pup a short time out in a crate (or ex pen). Only release the pup when he is quiet and do so quietly. I agree with fjm that you may just have too much on your plate at the moment to be able to juggle it all effectively.

Forget about dominance hierarchy. Your pup is trying out all of these behaviors because he has already had some success with them. Dogs need guidance and structure, not a free for all environment. I just got a request for training an adult dog who is not housebroken at over 2 years old. He also apparently bites and destroys all manner of household objects. Without knowing more I would bet dollars to donuts that this dog never learned to be calm in a crate and imagine that the training will be hard because of the lack of structure in the home. I doubt any of what is going on with that dog is any different than what is happening with your pup. The solution is orderliness, much easier to attain with a pup than an adult, so get on it now.

I do think you need to make it clear to your pup that you are in charge through food as one good tool. I would recommend starting each meal with you hand feeding the pup. Give at least half of each meal by hand. Train while you do so. Offer kibble in return for sits and downs. I also will say that it can be good to put hands in the food bowl, but just rest your hand there quietly once the appetite has been whetted by feeding the first portion of the meal. It is important that people be able to put their hands on and in their dogs mouths, but you have to be fair about the criteria.

As a final thought I will say I would not have gotten a puppy at this time. Elderly dogs deserve peace in their lives. Part of me would love a puppy now, but it would not be fair to Lily. I also would not have a puppy with very young children in my home. In fairness to all concerned if you decide to rehome this puppy do it now.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> "Alpha/Dominance/Boss" theory was based on faulty research in the 1930's and 40's by a behaviorist who was studying captive wolves. Not only has that theory been debunked for wolves, it ignores the fact that dogs and wolves are diverged species. This happened anywhere from around 10,000 to (probably well over) 40,000 years ago. Humans and dogs have been co-evolving in that time. It's been observed that dogs will be more inclined to "follow the friendliest".
> 
> Temperament is likely to vary a great deal, however. I don't hear bad temperament in your description. I hear rambunctious poodle puppy. In Volhard temperament testing, he sounds like he's 2s and 3s. Your older boy, unless your memory might be glossing over his early days with your family (mine sure did), sounds like he was 3s and 4s.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response and advice. So how is "Volhard temperament testing" different than determine likelihood for dominance then? Doesn't one of the tests determine which pup of the litter is likely to be more of a leader, head of the pack, or boss? Why would he pee on my bed after I yelped after not having done that for a week? It was like he won, and he was claiming my bed. After that, he behaved as if he had just gained a whirlwind of confidence when I had been ignoring the bitting and immediately ending play by pulling my hand, arm, leg, etc. out of his mouth. 

I do keep him on a schedule for eating, sleeping, playing, napping, training, play and exercise. He wakes up, goes to sleep at the same time, naps at the same, eats at the same time (3x per day) plays one on one with me at the same time, and goes for two walks per day at the same time. He won't sleep anywhere but his crate, which I thankfully purchased because I didn't plan to crate him at all. When I try to play with him, it ends quickly because if he's not chasing a ball, every time I go into the same room, he corners, jumps, bites pulls my clothes, and mounts me. He doesn't respond to verbal commands, I have to physically push him off of me which I never thought I would have to use physical force with a poodle puppy. I have to back out of the room with my hands in front of because he is relentless. This is just myself, not even with my daughter or other dog. It just doesn't seem right. I don't know how stop this except to end play because he doesn't really understand "no" or "leave it" yet.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Here is a link to Volhard's website on puppy aptitude (temperament) testing. Choosing Your Puppy (PAT) | Volhard Dog Nutrition Not all breeders do this testing which really has to be done by people the puppies don't know and right at 49 days of ages, so speculating about it now is not super important. But if the breeder had the testing done it could give you some insights. It doesn't sound like your pup's breeder had the testing done though. Otherwise they would have told you about it. One other prospective puppy owner did his own variation of the Volhard tests when they visited for pick day and he wanted Javelin as his first pick on that basis. I don't know what that person really wanted out of his pup, but I wanted a puppy to do performance sports with and Javelin did have many attributes that drew me to him as my first choice. I knew I would get my first choice pup since I had pick of the males.

This pup should not be loose to jump all over you for just walking into a room. You need to use your crate (I never suggest puppy raising without one) and perhaps an ex pen for longer term confinement rather than leaving him loose in a room. I also have to say again that I think it sounds like you are very overwhelmed. If you are stressing out over the pup the pup will respond with stress (which the craziness is about). If you are acting happy on the outside but stressing on the inside it can confuse a dog in such a way that they can't really know what to do. You cannot lie to a dog.


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'm going to be an outlier on this thread like on the early neutering issue. I do believe some dogs are much more dominant, and like you said, the Volhard tests for this! Sounds like the dog's energy is NOT the right fit for your household. Frosty was a puppy you could have had with your older dog and child--I raised him in my nursery school with a group of toddlers and he never once mouthed or jumped on a child (although it was stressful for me to keep kids/dogs separated at times in the day so they could rest). The right fit is out there, or you could decide to wait until older pup has passed/child is a bit older. I would return the pup.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Peeing on your bed is probably not a dominance gesture. Quite the opposite. A puppy often pees when confronted by an adult dog. Dogs can smell hormones in the urine, and an adult dog can smell that the puppy is sexually and socially immature. One of my dogs, otherwise decently housebroken by 4 months, did submissive/excitement piddling up until he was about a year old. The solution was simply to manage his encounters. I took him outside to play or to meet houseguests. Once he burned off the wiggles and peed if he needed to, we went back inside.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

lily cd re said:


> You already have a lot of good thoughts here. I will add some emphasis. Your pup is high energy but normal. However it sounds like you are feeling stress and picking up on that stress will amplify the pup's feelings and inappropriate behaviors. If you are truly calm your pup will be calmer in all likelihood. I never recommend to people to yelp when their puppy makes nip contact. I think it makes an already amped up pup even more excited. I recommend folding your arms to protect your hands and turning your back on the pup. If that doesn't work then give the pup a short time out in a crate (or ex pen). Only release the pup when he is quiet and do so quietly. I agree with fjm that you may just have too much on your plate at the moment to be able to juggle it all effectively.
> 
> Forget about dominance hierarchy. Your pup is trying out all of these behaviors because he has already had some success with them. Dogs need guidance and structure, not a free for all environment. I just got a request for training an adult dog who is not housebroken at over 2 years old. He also apparently bites and destroys all manner of household objects. Without knowing more I would bet dollars to donuts that this dog never learned to be calm in a crate and imagine that the training will be hard because of the lack of structure in the home. I doubt any of what is going on with that dog is any different than what is happening with your pup. The solution is orderliness, much easier to attain with a pup than an adult, so get on it now.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your response! If I need to make it clear to my pup that I am in charge, then he is trying to be "dominant" over me, no? I thought that the majority of puppies don't want to be in charge and those that do are difficult as is my feeling about this one. 

I will definitely try your recommendations regarding feeding. About sleep though, how much and how often should I be putting him down for a "nap" at 15 weeks? I have a feeling his "wake windows" are too long. He goes in his crate for the night at about 10:30 PM and wake around 7:30 AM. He then goes outside, eats in a slow feeder bowl (1/2 kibble and 1/2 raw), chews on a bone, then we try to play. He is awake for around 1.5-2 hrs. for all of this. I then put him to sleep in his crate for a 2-3 hour nap, then repeat this. He won't nap unless he is in his crate.

I agree with you about brining a puppy into a home with a senior dog and told myself I would never do that and here we are. I selfishly don't know how I'll get through his passing without another dog in the home. When my 17 y/o toy passed three years ago, thankfully I had him to help me through that.


----------



## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

SunnySam said:


> Thank you for your response and advice. So how is "Volhard temperament testing" different than determine likelihood for dominance then? Doesn't one of the tests determine which pup of the litter is likely to be more of a leader, head of the pack, or boss? Why would he pee on my bed after I yelped after not having done that for a week? It was like he won, and he was claiming my bed. After that, he behaved as if he had just gained a whirlwind of confidence when I had been ignoring the bitting and immediately ending play by pulling my hand, arm, leg, etc. out of his mouth.
> 
> I do keep him on a schedule for eating, sleeping, playing, napping, training, play and exercise. He wakes up, goes to sleep at the same time, naps at the same, eats at the same time (3x per day) plays one on one with me at the same time, and goes for two walks per day at the same time. He won't sleep anywhere but his crate, which I thankfully purchased because I didn't plan to crate him at all. When I try to play with him, it ends quickly because if he's not chasing a ball, every time I go into the same room, he corners, jumps, bites pulls my clothes, and mounts me. He doesn't respond to verbal commands, I have to physically push him off of me which I never thought I would have to use physical force with a poodle puppy. I have to back out of the room with my hands in front of because he is relentless. This is just myself, not even with my daughter or other dog. It just doesn't seem right. I don't know how stop this except to end play because he doesn't really understand "no" or "leave it" yet.


Wow, I just read your desperation in this. Before you consider my suggestion at the end of this post, have a good and honest talk with yourself. Have you got the time and energy right now for the work required for raising this pup. If not then return the pup to the breeder. That would be responsible, not only to the pup, but to yourself, your daughter and your senior dog. I think the peeing in your bed is an accident due to tension. The feelings of winning and claiming etc are human feelings, that you're reading in to the situation. I've seen both toddlers and pups pee because the are nervous. If you correct your pup physically, by pushing him etc, you are inadvertently creating a situation where you pup might become fearful of you. That worries me, and the peeing is the first warning of your relationship with your pup is strained.

If you do have the time and energy, I suggest you press the reset button. Start all over. Get your pup to love your presence, either but feeding kibble, treats, redirecting biting with toys, etc. Let your pup earn the right to be with your senior dog, and the moment he's out of order, calmly put him in his crate. Any exasperation from you will be detected and reacted upon. Time out is until he can calmly leave the crate and join in. Bolting out, requires going back in the crate. Reward generously any calm behaviour. Reward him for biting a sqeaky toy and not you. Poodles are uncanny on picking up on feelings. They are very sensitive and do not react well to harsh words.
Our poodles have trained my husband to be less loud when talking. He could boom before, but has a gentler approach today. The result is a much happier relationship.


----------



## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

Loki would start biting and jumping on everyone when he needed to go out to pee. He was trying to tell us that he needed out, but didn't know how. Once he learned to use the bells,. that behavior calmed down some, but he still wants to play. He bites at hands because he wants those hands to throw toys. He hasn't learned to bring the toy with him.
The one time he peed on my bed was when I had spent a long time attempting to get my younger child to go to bed. He was upset about something someone said at school so it too longer than normal. We had a gate on the bottom of the stairs so Loki couldn't get downstairs to get my husband to take him out. He peed a lot so he looked much happier and was much calmer when he was done. It wasn't dominance. It was relief his bladder was empty.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

Minie said:


> Wow, I just read your desperation in this. Before you consider my suggestion at the end of this post, have a good and honest talk with yourself. Have you got the time and energy right now for the work required for raising this pup. If not then return the pup to the breeder. That would be responsible, not only to the pup, but to yourself, your daughter and your senior dog. I think the peeing in your bed is an accident due to tension. The feelings of winning and claiming etc are human feelings, that you're reading in to the situation. I've seen both toddlers and pups pee because the are nervour. If you correct your pup physically, by pushing him etc, you are inadvertently creating a situation where you pup might become fearful of you. That worries me, and the peeing is the first warning of your relationship with your pup is strained.
> 
> If you do have the time and energy, I suggest you press the reset button. Start all over. Get your pup to love your presence, either but feeding kibble, treats, redirecting biting with toys, etc. Let your pup earn the right to be with your senior dog, and the moment he's out of order, calmly put him in his crate. Any exasperation from you will be detected and reacted upon. Time out is until he can calmly leave the crate and join in. Bolting out, requires going back in the crate. Reward generously any calm behaviour. Reward him for biting a sqeaky toy and not you. Poodles are uncanny on picking up on feelings. They are very sensitive and do not react well to harsh words.
> Our poodles have trained my husband to be less loud when talking. He could boom before, but has a gentler approach today. The result is a much happier relationship.


How would you suggest I get him to let go of my flesh then, without pushing him off because he doesn't respond to verbal commands. I don't think you're understanding how HARD he's biting - leaving marks and drawing blood.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

SunnySam said:


> How would you suggest I get him to let go of my flesh then, without pushing him off because he doesn't respond to verbal commands. I don't think you're understanding how HARD he's biting - leaving marks and drawing blood.


I am desperate. I would NEVER use force if I didn't have to. I am the most gently loving person ever and it breaks my heart that this is the reality of the situation.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No your puppy is not trying to dominate you. Giving a puppy guidance about the "rules" of the house is giving guidance, not being the boss. We don't allow our human offspring to make rules for themselves and we shouldn't allow puppies to make their own rules either. Acting out in response to an unpredictable environment is not dominance. I suspect that a big chunk of the wildness is related to not enough sleep. Puppies sleep more than they are awake by a good deal.

For the biting, you must resist the urge to pull your hand away. Usually the person pulling against the puppy teeth is what breaks skin. Redirect the biting to a soft toy or a chewable thing like a bully stick or an ear. How many puppies were in your baby dog's litter? Unless he was a singleton or from a very very small litter he should understand bite inhibition from his time with his litter mates. People are not generally effective at teaching dogs bite inhibition if the dog didn't learn it from his litter mates. If you are not pulling your hand away and your puppy is applying hard pressure and breaking skin with some level of intent then you need a behaviorist to evaluate the situation and make a determination about the prospects going forward. I would not recommend keeping a dog that lacks impeccable bite inhibition in a home with young children.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

lily cd re said:


> No your puppy is not trying to dominate you. Giving a puppy guidance about the "rules" of the house is giving guidance, not being the boss. We don't allow our human offspring to make rules for themselves and we shouldn't allow puppies to make their own rules either. Acting out in response to an unpredictable environment is not dominance. I suspect that a big chunk of the wildness is related to not enough sleep. Puppies sleep more than they are awake by a good deal.
> 
> For the biting, you must resist the urge to pull your hand away. Usually the person pulling against the puppy teeth is what breaks skin. Redirect the biting to a soft toy or a chewable thing like a bully stick or an ear. How many puppies were in your baby dog's litter? Unless he was a singleton or from a very very small litter he should understand bite inhibition from his time with his litter mates. People are not generally effective at teaching dogs bite inhibition if the dog didn't learn it from his litter mates. If you are not pulling your hand away and your puppy is applying hard pressure and breaking skin with some level of intent then you need a behaviorist to evaluate the situation and make a determination about the prospects going forward. I would not recommend keeping a dog that lacks impeccable bite inhibition in a home with young children.


So why do breeders I speak to recognize dominance in puppies and trainers do not? Profitability?


----------



## Pearl Grey (Nov 20, 2019)

SunnySam said:


> How would you suggest I get him to let go of my flesh then, without pushing him off because he doesn't respond to verbal commands. I don't think you're understanding how HARD he's biting - leaving marks and drawing blood.


I have a 17 month old spoo/velociraptor cross. OK I made up the last part, but I see coworkers looking at my bruises and scars and wondering what my home life is like. 
Here's what I do: 
1. I train inconsistent behaviors, like, at your baby's age, sit for a treat. Can't sit and maul mom at the same time. 
2. Don't give him the opportunity to maul mom in the first place. I don't know what your situation is like, but I know where I am most likely to fall victim to poodle assault and prevent the situation. Mine particularly likes to chase me down as I go out the front gate to feed horses, so I just put her in the house before I leave by the front gate.
3. Don't give any positive reinforcement for bad behavior. Which is what yelping in pain or swatting the offensive animal can actually be. Removing oneself from the situation and leaving the canine miscreant all alone to reflect on how he got that way can be an effective correction. Mine likes to mug me in the hallway, so when she does it I disappear into the closest bedroom and shut the door with her on the other side.
But I agree now may not be the time for a puppy. I have an elderly dog and I have to keep them completely separate because she will just beat the stuffing out of him trying to play with him. I had my Maisie with some itty-bitty children at the beach last year, when she was six months old, and oh yeah, I had to keep her on a leash the entire time. And she still managed to swat a little girl a good one on top of the head with her paw. 
Maybe you could return this pup and contact a rescue about fostering an older dog? See if that's a better fit?


----------



## Pearl Grey (Nov 20, 2019)

SunnySam said:


> So why do breeders I speak to recognize dominance in puppies and trainers do not? Profitability?


I would guess trainers are just better informed about behavior than breeders.


----------



## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

SunnySam said:


> How would you suggest I get him to let go of my flesh then, without pushing him off because he doesn't respond to verbal commands. I don't think you're understanding how HARD he's biting - leaving marks and drawing blood.


Unfortunately I think I do understand. From prior experience, I always have a toy, a rope etc to offer as a better alternative. I use puzzle games with kibble in and the odd treat. A plastic bottle with a screw top, that I have drilled holes him keeps him occupied when I put kibble in etc.
Please don't read my former post as a criticism. It really isn't. I truly feel your frustration and pain in your posts.


----------



## SunnySam (7 mo ago)

Pearl Grey said:


> I would guess trainers are just better informed about behavior than breeders.


Even those with over 40 years of experience in breeding and showing this specific breed (Standard Poodle)? I'm not convinced.


----------



## Pearl Grey (Nov 20, 2019)

SunnySam said:


> Even those with over 40 years of experience in breeding and showing this specific breed (Standard Poodle)? I'm not convinced.


Sure. Confirmation bias is hard thing to overcome.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SunnySam said:


> So why do breeders I speak to recognize dominance in puppies and trainers do not? Profitability?



As a certified professional dog trainer-knowledge assessed (CPDT-KA, ccpdt.org) I have a very different take on puppy development that is based in current science based data. Breeders are not necessarily good trainers at all. It isn't their primary goal. It is also hard to let go of "knowledge" one has held for a long time even if there is data that contradicts the old belief. For example I don't put a huge amount of stock in programmed fear periods since the original research was based on a very small number of pups in a lab environment. Ian Dunbar explained it in a very scientific fashion at a seminar of his I attended. I look at fear periods as a chicken/egg issue. Does the fear period occur because it is part of a pup's developmental programming or do we create it by seeing a small fear response that we give an exaggerated response to? Maybe it is either, neither or both.

BTW I am not speaking from a lack of understanding of your situation. Lily was at least as wild as a pup as yours. What straightened things out was when I stopped lying to her and making sure I was truly calm inside and outside when that was my mindset and putting her in her crate when I was stressed so we could both resettle our thinking.

Oh and Pearl Gray I think you mean redirect to an incompatible behavior rather than inconsistent behavior.


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I think the reason breeders (esp older ones that have been doing it forever) call it dominance is because that is what it has been called. There are different personalities, obviously. But the “dominant” puppy isn’t coming into your home trying to be in charge anymore than the stronger-willed toddler is. If your toddler slapped you in the face and then peed in your bed, you wouldn’t think they’re trying to be in charge of your house, would you? Your puppy is a toddler.

I have had dogs in the past that would have been perfect with little humans as puppies. I’ve also had puppies that would have been terrible to raise alongside children. Honestly, poodle puppies are hard. They are very mouthy and jumpy, and smart, which does not equal easy. Phoebe was hard with my (tiny) 5 year old human who was a fresh 4 when she came home. She lived a separate life from my elderly dog, which wasn’t too hard because they both spent a lot of the time sleeping, her in the ex pen. In the year she has spent here, my elderly dog has passed, and she is just now, as in the past month, having positive interactions with my littlest boy. She was taught to ignore him because he did not want much to do with her. My older boys both adore her and training her and playing with her. My youngest has always turned away and ignored her until very recently. She LOVES when he deigns to pet her and turns into a puddle at his feet, which is really too cute. But if I had gotten her to be “for the kids” I would have been disappointed! There have been many days when the kids were very frustrated with the wild dog. If she were all 3s and 4s like Elroy on here, we would have been saved much of the frustration! If she were like my San Diego was as a puppy, or my Emily, she would have slid into our household like she had always been here. But she is Phoebe, and she was not Volhard tested, but I can guarantee she would have not been 3s and 4s!

To answer your original question, it does sound like you should return the puppy, based on the information you have shared.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SunnySam said:


> At this point, I just think it may be too risky with my sweet old guy and young little gal in the house.


I think you are correct. Peggy would not have been a safe puppy to have in a home with a toddler.

If you are feeling angry or resentful about getting only, as you said, a partial refund, that’s not a reason to keep the puppy. Use those feelings to fuel your next puppy purchase, to ensure he’s a good fit for your home and that you and the next breeder you choose are on the same page.

On the subject of dominance, I’ll add this...

Puppies have different coping mechanisms, different experiences with the world at a young, formative age, and yes, they do have different temperaments. Some are highly driven. Some are dopey little potatoes in puppy-suits. One puppy may have learned early on to fight tooth and nail for resources. Another may be the type to just accept their lot in life. Some think the world’s out to get them. Others overflow with optimism from day 1 and nothing can shake that.

I could (and did) pry a chicken bone from my last dog’s mouth. With Peggy, however, I had to teach her (with the help of a behaviourist) why it was in her best interest to give treasures to me rather than gulping them down or warning me off with a growl.

Yep. Different dogs. Different personalities. Different strengths. Different weaknesses. My last dog felt all was right in the world as long as I was by her side. Peggy isn’t so easily convinced. We accept her as she is and made a conscious decision to move forward as her people. But at one point we were quite literally on our way to return her to her breeder. We were on the road and we turned back.

You’re not alone in feeling overwhelmed by your puppy and questioning if he’s the right fit for your home. And I think your toddler and senior pup are the deciding factors here.


----------



## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

SunnySam said:


> We have an almost 15 week old Standard pup that we brought home at 9 weeks. When we first brought him home, I immediately noticed he was very food motivated - he inhales it and tried to bite my hands when I pulled it away. I have since broken him of this by putting my hand in his food and taking it away and he doesn't do this anymore. The real issues with jumping and biting remain.
> 
> I have a two year old daughter and another Senior Standard who is 11.5 years old that I cannot leave in same room with the pup, even with a lead on because he pulls toward them so quickly and strongly now trying to lunge and jump. He knocked down my daughter the first week home, lunged and pushed her flat on her back and I swear his mouth was open, like he was trying to bite her neck/face but I couldn't tell for certain from my angle. The other day, she was standing at the baby gate while he and I were in the kitchen and he jumped toward her head with such force, he almost cleared the gate, however thankfully didn't as he bounced off and back onto the floor. My sweet senior guy has had IVDD issues for the past year and has difficulty moving quickly. He barked at him a few times when we first took the puppy home, in trying put him in his place but has since given up since the puppy jumped on him with his two front paws up before I could tug on his lead to stop it and he let out a cry like a baby. The pup tries to jump and lunge at him whenever we walk past my senior laying on his bed.
> 
> ...


Yup, this all sounds very normal and not dominance (this language has been debunked for decades). Poodles are little velociraptors as puppies and it sounds like you have a high drive one that would just like to have a job. If you feel uncomfortable it probably is best to have the dog go back to the breeder (they’ll find a better matched home for them) and maybe adopt an older or smaller dog. A standard poodle puppy is a bit of a force of nature ☺


----------



## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

SunnySam said:


> So why do breeders I speak to recognize dominance in puppies and trainers do not? Profitability?


No, its because the breeders are probably older and not trained in the latest developments in behavior. There’s no conspiracy, just different specialties and short hand.

They also deal with literal packs of dogs so get to see dog dynamics more than regular folks. Dominance may not be the correct word but it’s the short hand used for a seemingly bossy, confident, or even just an insecure, unmanaged dog.


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

It must be very disappointing to be told "return your puppy" and "it's normal puppy behavior". I'm sorry that this situation doesn't appear to be working out. You don't often see people saying "return your puppy" here - so you do need to think seriously whether this is the right time.

Your puppy does sound completely normal behavior wise. I had a 3 and 7 year old when I brought home a tpoo puppy.

The difference was my 7 yo was very mature for her age, adored all animals and wanted to be a vet. She had both the patience and ability to understand my instructions on how to interact successfully with the puppy. In fact she trained this tpoo to perform circus type tricks like walking on top of balls as well as the basic commands to come, sit. She was just a natural with training animals, and still is as an adult. She rides horses competitively and trained her current dog for agility competition. My 3.5 year old didn't interact as much with the puppy until she and the puppy were older. I never pushed her, and when the puppy was in velociraptor phase I kept a distance between them. I didn't want either my younger daughter or the puppy to have a bad interaction. The difference between you and me - is my 7 yo willfully would direct the puppy to herself for interactions so my younger had minimal contact. I spent a lot of time watching both and interceding when needed. It also helped my puppy was smaller.

I remember worrying and working hard to keep all the little toys and things my kids were playing with away from the puppy - my older child was into Barbie dolls which had tiny shoes with sharp needle like spikes on the heel. My toddler had lots of toys like puzzles, stuffed animals etc. that to the puppy looked like "her" toys. It was exhausting giving both the children and puppy their safe spaces.

When I brought that tpoo puppy home I had wonderful memories of my childhood minipoo as the perfect dog. Within a few hours of bringing the puppy home - I told myself that I was young and didn't remember my minipoo as a puppy - my memories were of her as an older, well trained settled dog. I had to drop those expectations of a perfect dog. I went through this same mental exercise when I brought my current two minipoos home of reminding myself this is a new little puppy and it's not fair to compare it to a well behaved older dog for whom I had forgotten all the tiny annoying little things puppies do in those first years. It's the same with children - I've heard people remark if women remembered the pain of childbirth they would only have one child. The memories of diaper changes and feeding fade with the years and become forgotten. Same with raising a puppy. Also teething and growing pains are spread out in children over years - that is compressed in a puppy - so there's a lot of teething pain going on which is causing a puppy's need to chew.

This puppy has the makings to be as great a dog as your older and previous dogs - but the real question is do you have the time, energy to be raising a baby along side this puppy. 

In addition, the methods for raising a puppy have changed - for the better - definitely for the better - for you the owner you will need time to do some research in how to successfully raise a puppy with the added bonus of raising a baby..... and raising them together. That's a lot of work and perhaps too much for you at this time. It would be easier if your child was older.


----------



## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

Yes, there are lots of people, many with years of experience, who still believe in dominance theory. That doesn't make it valid.

Let me slam the door on the concept of dogs dominating humans once and for all.

Where it exists -- and there are a number of species where dominance hierarchy is important (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dominance_hierarchy_species), it exists _ONLY_ _WITHIN THE MEMBERS OF ONE SPECIES (_emphasis deliberately added). Dominance does not cross species lines!

Because dominance deals with mate selection, among other things, it is a concept that adds no value to the understanding of the dog-human relationship, and can cause a ton of harm. Puppies can be trying, bratty, obnoxious, mouthy, and just plain impossible sometimes, but that is not and cannot be motivated by a desire to dominate a human.

Period.

The End.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

SunnySam said:


> So how is "Volhard temperament testing" different than determine likelihood for dominance then? Doesn't one of the tests determine which pup of the litter is likely to be more of a leader, head of the pack, or boss?


To some extent we are talking about the power of words _for humans. _Some words are more negatively charged, such as dominance, others are more positively charged, such as leader. The thing is that dogs don't think that way.
Their "pack" structure is a family structure with mother, father, offspring/siblings. If in the wild and without a family group, they tend to follow the friendliest dog.

The temperament testing goal is to identify the pup's overall temperament, not specifically for dominance. Dogs fill many roles for humans. A high energy, independent temperament will be better suited to certain tasks than others, as an example. By identifying this, it helps in placing dogs. They're usually a good predictor but not cast in stone.

"A temperament test or certification measures a dog’s reaction or behavior to various elements presented to them such as a stranger, usually of varying degrees ranging from neutral and friendly, to threatening and aggressive. A measure is also conducted on a dog’s reaction to auditory stimulus (gunshots *) and reaction to visual stimulus (umbrella pop). There other environmental exposures such as unusual footing. An example would be to have a dog walk on a very unfamiliar surface."

* Seriously? Gunshots?



SunnySam said:


> It was like he won, and he was claiming my bed.


This is also framing things from a human POV rather than a dogs. Dogs share many of the same basic emotions with humans but they probably aren't able to feel the more complicated.










If you look at this from that family structure POV, and consider that this pup is baby still, do you think a baby would act from that perspective? (if they could get on the bed on their own lol)

Another thing to remember is that generally, dogs don't have full neuromuscular control until that system reaches a certain physical maturity level, around 6m old. Additionally, soft surfaces tend to trigger the pee response.

Normally I post links to any information I've sourced from studies or other reliable, currently knowledgeable online sites but I suspect that you don't have a lot of time for all that .

I will post this one link to a pretty comprehensive paper on dogs and their behavior but, fair warning, it's long and has a lot of links to the sources it's citing.
A Review of Domestic Dogs' (Canis Familiaris) Human-Like Behaviors: Or Why Behavior Analysts Should Stop Worrying and Love Their Dogs - PMC (nih.gov)

Another link that you may not have time to look at but it could help you visualize some temperament testing. The breeder has uploaded a series of puppies being tested. The link to the videos is in the thread. 








Temperament Testing - Video Examples


We talk a lot here about why it’s important to let your breeder guide your puppy selection, whether that means picking the puppy for you, narrowing down your options, or simply making a recommendation. Part of this process is temperament assessment, either through daily observation by the...




www.poodleforum.com


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It occurs to me that it's time for some "happy ending" tales, although they're really tales of beginnings .

I'll edit this post later this evening to add my tale of "Raising Two Miniature Poodle Puppies but No Toddler".

🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩

We'd had two miniature sisters that joined our family when they were almost 2y and loved them for just short of 14y.

The house was just too quiet, filled with their absence.

We went looking for a single young adult girl and came home with two almost 9 week old miniature boy poodles. I thought that I was prepared. I was not.

The amount of work goes exponential when you have two or more babies at the same time, and it had been well over 30 years since I'd last had a puppy.

It's not a joke when you're mouthed to the point of pain and your clothes are torn, not to either of you. The mouthing is a puppy way of communicating, in this case carried to an inappropriate level.

That's trainable.

My arms were a constant landing place for teeth. I kept treats and toys in my pockets and at hand to trade out for my skin and clothes. The tearing of the clothes isn't deliberate destruction, it happened when they were attracted to the movement and the mouthing catches the clothing.

I like to wear capris that have ties at the calves. Guess what got mouthed and bit at my house? If you guessed my capris and my legs, you got it! Mini's are shorter so they couldn't reach any higher unless I was sitting down. I did give up wearing loose woven toppers due to teeth and nails just catching the bottoms of them.

I can wear them all safely now .

I walked in to the vet's office to pick something up and a vet I hadn't seen yet took one look at my arms and asked "poodle puppy?". When I answered "two", she laughed and reminded me that it would get better.

It did.

Land Sharkery, house-training, other training, play, exercise, cleaning, near complete exhaustion for the first 2-3 months, more than a few breakdowns into tears and wondering if this was a horrible mistake and I'd need to find them another home, doing all this without much in-house support, oh, and severely sprained wrist after stepping on and falling over puppy Neo making me one-handed for those early months, that puppy time I wasn't prepared for.

We all made it.

Around 6m they were becoming civilized and these oh so hard, painful days were becoming less and less. It's been almost 5y since the day we brought them home and if I hadn't kept a journal, I'm sure I'd remember far less of the hard times because now it seems only a blink.

🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩🐩

A Miniature Poodle Puppy and a Senior

My mother had recently died and our miniature poodle girl, Missy, was 13y old, no known health problems but she was slowing down. I didn't think I could make it thru another loss anytime soon so without consulting Missy, puppy Sass, another miniature poodle came to live with us.

Missy ignored Sass but Sass would not be ignored. In self defense Missy started moving more and then faster until she was able to actually able to jump up on the furniture again. There she was safe, at least for a while.

It took a while, weeks, maybe even a couple of months, but one day instead of Missy running from Sass, Sass was running with Missy chasing and it was Game on! They were good friends for the rest of Missy's life.

I'd accidentally given Missy a gift.


----------



## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

I wanted to take a moment and just offer to you that you’ve got a community of people here who really want the best for both you, your family, and the pup. I sense some defensiveness in your words (admittedly it’s impossible to hear tone, but nonetheless it’s a gut instinct I am getting). 

No one here thinks you’re not a caring person. If you didn’t care you wouldn’t bother looking for advice, right? 

I’m sorry it’s felt so hard. You’ve been dividing your time between two tiny beings who need your attention, and goodness knows what else. I hope there’s some time in there for just you! A chance to breathe and do something that fills you back up.

Part of the issue sounds like you’ve made up your mind about the pup’s behaviour. And part of it sounds like he’s energetic, learning his way in the world, and you’ve got a lot on your plate!

If you’ve any desire to keep him, is there anyway you can hire a behaviourist to have an eye on your interactions and give feedback? Maybe even on video? We can share our points of view, but you may feel even better and benefit from having a professional get their eyes on the situation. This is perhaps particularly important with such a young child in the house.

(For what it’s worth, I had a cat that occasionally peed. Including on ME while I was napping on the couch, pregnant with my second child. He was very anxious and it was his way of communicating that).


----------



## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Starla said:


> There are different personalities, obviously. But the “dominant” puppy isn’t coming into your home trying to be in charge anymore than the stronger-willed toddler is. If your toddler slapped you in the face and then peed in your bed, you wouldn’t think they’re trying to be in charge of your house, would you? Your puppy is a toddler.


SPOT ON!


----------



## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

The ATTS (temperament test) is a different thing from the Volhard 😉.
Edited to clarify the exact test of which I was thinking. Dogs must be at least 18 months of age to participate in the ATTS. That's the test with gunshots.


----------



## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

Writing once more. I really cannot stop thinking about this thread. I suppose in so many ways it reminds me of my early days of parenting and how overwhelmed I was. And even how in present-day, oh my gosh I have a ton going on... I'll save everyone the story, but in some ways I've perhaps bitten off more than I can chew. (Not dog related). But I'm chewing! Because in this situation I have no choice, and I do see a light at the end of the tunnel!

What's your intention, in your heart of hearts? With posting here, I mean? 

Are you looking for new approaches to try and problem solve, and continue on with this pup?

Or, are you looking for someone to say, "Hey this sounds like it's out of your wheel house right now-- full permission to abort mission and return the pup. Doesn't make you a failure. Doesn't mean you did anything "wrong." It's just maybe not a good fit and time for you"? 

I ask because you don't seem to be in agreement with so much of what's been offered. And so I wonder if maybe you just don't want to keep going. That's okay! You wouldn't be the first to decide a particular pup just isn't working out. 

If you're anything like me, maybe you just needed to hear that. I find I can be very hard on myself. I can also know what is right for me, but then get trapped in cycles of guilt and "I'm not good enough" stories. 

Whatever you choose, I wish you so much goodness. I hope you stick around on PF either way. We'd love to see pictures of your crew.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

The x-pen is a tool to teach your dog what he's supposed to (allowed to) chew on. Sounds like he needs more work on this and less freedom for now. I'd recommend you take the time to read "Before and After Getting Your Puppy" by Ian Dunbar. Your puppy needs help learning what he's supposed to chew on (as opposed to biting you). Hand feeding meals is part of the training. It's going to be a good long while before you can leave him with your daughter unsupervised. He'll be 60 lbs or so in a year, so nows the time to train him. Another thing that can help is to teach your daughter how to be very calm around the puppy. No running away, no high pitch squealing, no hugging, etc. You may have already done this, but throwing it out there just in case. As for peeing on your bed, Elroy did that too. It was an accident just like any other accident he had in the house. No yelling, no punishment. Just bring him outside asap and then clean up the accident. I hope things take a turn for the better.


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I hope you're still with us. This sounds like something that can be resolved but the resolution will be up to you.

Some of this is already in previous posts and some suggestions I don't remember who to credit for.

Jumping, Lunging, Biting, Separation (Safe Space)



SunnySam said:


> two year old daughter and another Senior Standard who is 11.5 years old that I cannot leave in same room with the pup, even with a lead on because he pulls toward them so quickly and strongly now trying to lunge and jump. He knocked down my daughter the first week home, lunged and pushed her flat on her back


Is the leash tethered to you or dragging? How long is the leash?

If dragging, that's not working because you can't grab it in time to keep him from completing his forward move.

Tethering may not be practical for you as it wasn't for me, so my suggestion is to have an expen or crate that he's kept in unless you and he are actively engaged. They will take up living space but neither needs to be a permanent fixture.

This will keep both him out of trouble because he'll have no chance to rehearse unwanted behaviors but also allows your daughter and your older guy to have some peace.

This isn't cruel and isn't ignoring him. It helps him learn to stay under threshold but still be with the family.



SunnySam said:


> the puppy jumped on him with his two front paws up before I could tug on his lead to stop it and he let out a cry like a baby. The pup tries to jump and lunge at him whenever we walk past my senior laying on his bed.


I'm assuming that you don't have another place to move your senior's bed, or would prefer not to so you'll need to find some way to add a partial barrier around your senior's bed (would you mind telling us your pup's names? I'm getting lost in the pronouns ) or have Puppy on the opposite side of Senior and on a very short leash as you take him past Senior. If he doesn't have the reach or access, Puppy can't rehearse that behavior.



SunnySam said:


> he literally jumps and lunges at all parts of my body, hands, arms, legs, butt, and stomach today, biting HARD!





SunnySam said:


> How would you suggest I get him to let go of my flesh then, without pushing him off because he doesn't respond to verbal commands. I don't think you're understanding how HARD he's biting - leaving marks and drawing blood.


No one likes it but it is normal behavior, just not the normal you remember.

The moderately good news is that much of this dissipates after he finishes teething. Until then, keep something, high value treats or preferred chew toy, in a pocket or stationed within reach in all the rooms he's allowed in.

Get his attention and trade your parts for the treat or toy. The second he goes for those he gets R + reinforcement along with a "Good Boy!".

When he gets excited, my Neo still runs to grab a toy to stuff his mouth with so he won't mouth us, even now at 5y old.

I also found that loose clothing triggered that response so until it started dissipating, I wore closer fitting clothes.

As you know, the yelping isn't always the right choice. If you have time to see him preparing to launch, turn your back on him or leave the room. Get behind a closed door if you can. This is only for seconds.

This essentially removes you from his fun. At some point, he'll make the connection that when he does X, Y happens and he feels left out. This is P - at work. Positive reinforcement training is essentially operant conditioning with R + as the primary tool followed by P -.

Another tool to add is teaching him to "jump up" on command which then gives you the additional tool of teaching him "off". The second he takes off say "jump up" then lure him down with a treat/toy as you say "off". I think it was PeggyThe Part who trained to reward the jump up when her pup wasn't making actual contact, which would be ideal. She's described this in another recent thread.
I can't remember who's written of teaching the opposite commands so I'm unable to credit them.



SunnySam said:


> is this normal Standard Poodle Puppy behavior and should I try to work with this guy or return him to the breeder


It really does sound like it's within the normal range of behavior but only you can decide which way to go.


----------



## Sole0102 (Nov 23, 2020)

Hi,

I'm sorry that you are dealing with so much and I understand how overwhelming it must be. It's hard when you get a puppy and things don't turn out exactly how you thought they would or are different to what you expected.

My previous dog Cooper, was the mouthiest puppy and I posted on here feeling frustrated, overwhelmed and helpless. Crying, ignoring him, distracting him never seemed to help and in fact, seemed to spur him on. It was relentless. When he was hyper, he was really hyper. 

The advice I was given was to first of all make sure he was getting enough sleep. I found myself enforcing nap times, just like I did with my kids when they were younger. The other piece of advice I was given was to consistently replace me, my trousers, shoes etc with a toy or chew. I thought that sounded like hard work, how could I make sure I was consistent with this. It sounded impossible and surely my dog should just learn the word No. It turned out that it wasn't that difficult. I made sure that I always had a toy or chew on me at all times. As soon as he got mouthy, I stuffed one into his mouth. He would get mouthy if people visited because he was overexcited. I would stuff a chew into his mouth right before anyone entered my house. It took a couple of months of being consistent but I can't explain to you how I felt the first time someone walked into my house unexpectedly and Cooper ran over, grabbed a chew and kept it in his mouth until he knew he was calm enough to give kisses. It finally paid off!

Something I will say is you only get out of it what you put into it. That's not me saying that you haven't tried your best, just that when one thing doesn't work, sometimes you have to try something else. 

I wish you all the best no matter what you decide to do. You will make the right decision for you, your family and your dog x


----------



## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

BennieJets said:


> Or, are you looking for someone to say, "Hey this sounds like it's out of your wheel house right now-- full permission to abort mission and return the pup. Doesn't make you a failure. Doesn't mean you did anything "wrong." It's just maybe not a good fit and time for you"?


I gave that permission and my post got ignored. I thought I was reading through the lines pretty well (I get paid to do that for a living after all). Oh well, like everyone else here, I wish the OP the best.


----------



## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I gave that permission and my post got ignored. I thought I was reading through the lines pretty well (I get paid to do that for a living after all). Oh well, like everyone else here, I wish the OP the best.


I know, I saw it 🙂😉 And a few others mentioned it as well. But I figured it was worth just explicitly stating it again for good measure. I study psychology and counselling and appreciate good heaping measures of mirroring.


----------



## Pearl Grey (Nov 20, 2019)

I guess the OP has departed. But I'm glad she posted. 
Lilycd's post about emotional congruence really got me thinking. I've known for years it's important when working with horses. It's the whole reason I started meditating. But horses are prey animals. 
I've only recently realized how important this is when working with small predators who live in packs. Like us. And poodles.  
I actually did mean to say inconsistent behavior, but only in the sense that "sitting" for example, is inconsistent with "ripping flesh off your mother." But incompatible works just as well and is probably clearer.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Pearl Grey said:


> Lilycd's post about emotional congruence really got me thinking. I've known for years it's important when working with horses. It's the whole reason I started meditating. But horses are prey animals.
> I've only recently realized how important this is when working with small predators who live in packs. Like us. And poodles.


I will be forever grateful for the lessons I got from a good horse trainer. So many things she taught me are equally applicable to dog training. Not letting my own mood interfere with the animal. Not starting a physical conflict with an animal that could mess me up big time. Respecting that an animal has fears and concerns that don't always align with mine. Breaking lessons down into small, easily understood steps and rewarding each tentative attempt to do the right thing. It just goes on.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Pearl Grey I guess the terms inconsistent and incompatible are synonymous, but most trainers use the term inconsistent in conversation with each other and also with students. Yes it is too bad that the OP seems to have departed. There is lots of good information here, but hopefully other people will benefit.

Some of the best dog trainers I know have had at least some equestrian experience. One of my favs, Brenda Aloff, does dressage.


----------

