# Cryptic Merle



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Djd


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

What makes you think she is Merle? 
While it is more desirable for reds to have black pigment, there are plenty with liver. Hard to tell for sure on a photo, but her eyes look hazel? It can take a while for the eyes to fully darken, ime the lighter they are the longer it can take. As a liver-pigmented red she would be expected to have eye color on the lighter side (ie not dark brown).
I am partial to black pigmented dogs but she is super cute! Love partis!


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Did she have a merle parent? In my opinion she has nothing to suggest merle in her, though it is hidden in red pigmented dogs.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Although if you were told you would get health testing and didn't, maybe you were lied to in that regard. Do you know where the testing was supposed to have been done? Can you look it up that way?
Does she have any Merle in her background? That's typically a sign there was some other breed involved at some point down the line....
Although there is a lot of controversy about that!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

She looks like such a sweetheart. What does her breeder say when you ask about those missing records?


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Starvt said:


> What makes you think she is Merle?
> While it is more desirable for reds to have black pigment, there are plenty with liver. Hard to tell for sure on a photo, but her eyes look hazel? It can take a while for the eyes to fully darken, ime the lighter they are the longer it can take. As a liver-pigmented red she would be expected to have eye color on the lighter side (ie not dark brown).
> I am partial to black pigmented dogs but she is super cute! Love partis!


I followed her lineage back on both sides thru the akc website and there are "blue and black" listed on there. I'm hoping the test comes back mm because I know merle can't be carried.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> She looks like such a sweetheart. What does her breeder say when you ask about those missing records?


Dodged them. She is offering to lay for merle testing though which is good. Rocking Y is back in her pedigree which concerns me tho


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Starvt said:


> Although if you were told you would get health testing and didn't, maybe you were lied to in that regard. Do you know where the testing was supposed to have been done? Can you look it up that way?
> Does she have any Merle in her background? That's typically a sign there was some other breed involved at some point down the line....
> Although there is a lot of controversy about that!


Both sides have apparent merle way back 7 gens. Rocking Y and KitSue


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Did she have a merle parent? In my opinion she has nothing to suggest merle in her, though it is hidden in red pigmented dogs.


Both are red parti so either could be hidden merle


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

There is merle back 7 gens..I don't know if it could pass that far down though


----------



## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Oh yikes... Rocking Y does seem to breed merle dogs very irresponsibly. Breeding merles is not good but breeding merles and reds... seems like a recipe for disaster.

That said, since you have the dog already and are not asking for advice on choosing a breeder... what are your concerns about her being cryptic merle? If cryptic it should not affect her health in any way.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I love parti poodles, and I love amber eyes. I think she's gorgeous.

You said in another thread that you were interested in breeding her. I think the next question is "What is the goal of the breeding program?" If you have your heart set on showing in conformation classes, then this is probably not the right dog to found your line. Even though I personally love her looks, they are not breed standard. The merle up the family tree would also give me pause, as merle cannot be registered in either AKC or UKC. Given the time and cost of showing, I would prefer to put the investment into a dog with fewer complications.

However, these issues wouldn't be a deal breaker if you are interested in dog sports. Any registered dog can compete in AKC sports, and unregistered dogs can compete through the Canine Partners program.


----------



## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Just looks like a brown based red/white parti. Nothing says merle to me, although, as everyone's said, red does hide it. 

I don't know Rocking Y, but Kit Sue is in about every parti pedigree out there, and I don't know of any merles that she produced. 

Being registered "black and blue" could be brindle (which kit sue did have) or even phantom. Half of the poodles on akc are probably registered with wrong colors because of color changes. I've run across a lot of them and just expect that. Nobody's fault.

I don't know any breeders who give dna health and color testing on each individual puppy. They test the parents. If the parents are clear, then puppies will be clear. If the breeder said you were receiving testing on your individual puppy then they should have followed through with that, but I wonder if there just wasn't a misunderstanding on that. 

As Raindrop said, if this is just a pet, then even if she is cryptic merle it won't affect her health in any way. If she is merle and akc registered then that is a problem because someone down the line lied to akc and your pedigree is wrong anyway. And, of course if you're going to breed her then cryptic merle is something you'd need to know. 

Other than that - Shes a gorgeous puppy. Red and white parti is so popular right now. I'm sure you can easily find someone to give her a great home if you decide not to keep her, or just send her to me. 

Happy New Year Everyone!


----------



## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Summer said:


> I don't know any breeders who give dna health and color testing on each individual puppy. They test the parents. If the parents are clear, then puppies will be clear. If the breeder said you were receiving testing on your individual puppy then they should have followed through with that, but I wonder if there just wasn't a misunderstanding on that


Most of the tests for genetic diseases cannot be done on puppies. Most people breeding poodles are not likely to pay for color testing. While it is more likely that a puppy will be clear of genetic diseases if its parents are clear, it is better to see at least 3 generations that have tested clear.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Johanna said:


> Most of the tests for genetic diseases cannot be done on puppies. Most people breeding poodles are not likely to pay for color testing. While it is more likely that a puppy will be clear of genetic diseases if its parents are clear, it is better to see at least 3 generations that have tested clear.


Certainly the phenotypic tests (heart, hips, eyes, etc) can't be done on puppies, but the dna tests can be done at any age (at least the ones from Embark).
It does seem unlikely that breeders would do the testing on all their pups though, I agree. Although I understand there are 'breeder packages' for bulk tests.


----------



## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Our girl's eyes are about the same! They are only starting to change now, she is 16 weeks old. She is a silver beige also with liver points. I wouldn't worry about the eyes.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

ThePoodlesMoody said:


> Our girl's eyes are about the same! They are only starting to change now, she is 16 weeks old. She is a silver beige also with liver points. I wouldn't worry about the eyes.


Thank you - I'm afraid we have discovered merle in the lineage on both sides


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Summer said:


> Just looks like a brown based red/white parti. Nothing says merle to me, although, as everyone's said, red does hide it.
> 
> I don't know Rocking Y, but Kit Sue is in about every parti pedigree out there, and I don't know of any merles that she produced.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the gracious reply. The name "merle" was even in the name on the sires side so we know there is merle. She also did not send the dams health testing with the flight nanny - we have discovered the dam was 6 months when bred 😔. Many many lies and we are putting the pieces together.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

cowpony said:


> I love parti poodles, and I love amber eyes. I think she's gorgeous.
> 
> You said in another thread that you were interested in breeding her. I think the next question is "What is the goal of the breeding program?" If you have your heart set on showing in conformation classes, then this is probably not the right dog to found your line. Even though I personally love her looks, they are not breed standard. The merle up the family tree would also give me pause, as merle cannot be registered in either AKC or UKC. Given the time and cost of showing, I would prefer to put the investment into a dog with fewer complications.
> 
> However, these issues wouldn't be a deal breaker if you are interested in dog sports. Any registered dog can compete in AKC sports, and unregistered dogs can compete through the Canine Partners program.


We wanted a healthy red parti female to breed - as of right now we will not show. There is merle in her lineage and the breeder did not send the dams health papers - come to find out the dam was just born in February 😔


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Oh yikes... Rocking Y does seem to breed merle dogs very irresponsibly. Breeding merles is not good but breeding merles and reds... seems like a recipe for disaster.
> 
> That said, since you have the dog already and are not asking for advice on choosing a breeder... what are your concerns about her being cryptic merle? If cryptic it should not affect her health in any way.


We did plan to breed her, but we cannot in good consci


Raindrops said:


> Did she have a merle parent? In my opinion she has nothing to suggest merle in her, though it is hidden in red pigmented dogs.


There seems to be merle on both sides, unfortunately. Dam on her website is listed as "tri" but is red/white parti. The dam on her pedigree we received is a different dam and the birthdays listed is 2.20.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Starvt said:


> What makes you think she is Merle?
> While it is more desirable for reds to have black pigment, there are plenty with liver. Hard to tell for sure on a photo, but her eyes look hazel? It can take a while for the eyes to fully darken, ime the lighter they are the longer it can take. As a liver-pigmented red she would be expected to have eye color on the lighter side (ie not dark brown).
> I am partial to black pigmented dogs but she is super cute! Love partis!


Thank you, we love her so much. 

She has a blue ring around her eyes which is unseen in the photos. We also found merle in her pedigree on both sides.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Starvt said:


> Although if you were told you would get health testing and didn't, maybe you were lied to in that regard. Do you know where the testing was supposed to have been done? Can you look it up that way?
> Does she have any Merle in her background? That's typically a sign there was some other breed involved at some point down the line....
> Although there is a lot of controversy about that!


There seems to be merle on both sides. For sure 1 side..they even named their dogs "merle. We also discovered the dam was born 2.20, which is different than what she had on the website


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

She's absolutely adorable - and I hope she lives a happy long and healthy life given all the lies and deception you were subjected too. 

Perhaps you can find a mentor who you can work with to help you achieve your goals as a quality poodle breeder.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

Skylar said:


> She's absolutely adorable - and I hope she lives a happy long and healthy life given all the lies and deception you were subjected too.
> 
> Perhaps you can find a mentor who you can work with to help you achieve your goals as a quality poodle breeder.


Thank you 🤍🤍🤍 im working with my mom - one of the best breeders I know. Unfortunately, this breeder was one of the most reputable breeders out there but she recently took a turn for the worst (thinking in 2018).


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh no. I'm sorry to hear the situation took such an unfortunate turn. She really is a pretty girl. I would be thrilled to have a pet as lovely as she.


----------



## Lfmarkus (Dec 17, 2020)

cowpony said:


> Oh no. I'm sorry to hear the situation took such an unfortunate turn. She really is a pretty girl. I would be thrilled to have a pet as lovely as she.


Thank you so much - lesson learned, I guess. We would keep her if we had the space or the means but we do not. We are very upset as we are bonded to her


----------



## Luna the Spoo (Dec 29, 2020)

Lfmarkus said:


> Thank you so much - lesson learned, I guess. We would keep her if we had the space or the means but we do not. We are very upset as we are bonded to her


I'm so sorry to hear that the breeder wasn't straight with you about the parentage of your pup. Very disheartening, especially if she knew you were looking to breed rather then a pet. I know that with my chosen breed (CKCS), it takes a very long time to establish relationships with the top breeders, and a lot wont even give you the dignity of a reply when inquiring about pups if they don't know you. And sadly the dogs that are easily attained are not ones that should be bred. Not sure about poodle world, but in CKCS world, no show breeder will sell a show prospect to an unknown without proof you are a show home or looking at your breeding program unless you happen to know well someone they respect that will vouch for you, and even then they may require co-ownership and or retain breeding rights. But if you are serious then get to know these people, and insist on seeing current health testing results for both sire and dam and if possible at least 2 but preferably 3 gens back, and also examine the pedigrees of both before agreeing to put a deposit. Then be prepared to Wait! Any breeder worth their salt shouldn't even flinch at being asked for this information, and some even have the information readily available on their websites. Good luck in your search!


----------



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

With her Merle background, possibly the most important DNA test for her would be the MDR1 (Multidrug sensitivity 1) test. It will reveal if she inherited the gene from another breed in her family tree common in poodley Merles. If so, she will have adverse reactions including death from certain medications, especially Ivermectin which is commonly used to treat parasites. These are the breeds affected by the MDR1 mutation. This is something you or her next owner needs to know.




Lfmarkus said:


> We wanted a healthy red parti female to breed - as of right now we will not show. There is merle in her lineage and the breeder did not send the dams health papers - come to find out the dam was just born in February 😔





Lfmarkus said:


> We would keep her if we had the space or the means but we do not. We are very upset as we are bonded to her


I have nothing against getting a great pup to show or breed a few times - as long as they are #1 as a beloved pet. This turned out to not be a good fit for you. You learned some hard lessons. At this point avoid additional mistakes that will cause her great suffering.

Puppy millers scout the free ads in particular on Craigslist. They'll lie while smiling in your face that their kennel or farm is wonderful, but their intent is profiting and a the cruelest form of greed. A few go so far they'll have a person pretending to be looking for a poodle but she or he will be fake and a representative for the mill. They would see her extreme beauty as an asset and literally breed her to death, twice a year, while she languishes in lonelines in a nasty cramped cage, never getting prettied up and groomed, played with, and in other horrible conditions. Think about chicken factories and you have an idea. And they'd murder (euthanize) her the minute she couldn't reproduce any longer and dispose of her body like trash.

_No way, no how, not over your dead body_ is your motto that will be the bridge from you to her next owner to get her to safety.

As you seek another owner, keep ever most in your mind that she needs to be protected lest she ends up being some despicable human's cash cow. You will have to be extremely careful in finding her another home. There are a lot of people who would pay through the teeth to have a gorgeous poodle like her and wouldn't mind giving you their vet referral and other referrals, and having you visit their home and meeting their family.

*Options:*

1) Avoid Craiglist. Run a paid ad in a major city newspaper, saying she comes with a strict spay agreement contract whether you mean it or not. As soon as they hear the word "spay contract" you'll never hear from any of them again except the most devious. Those will disappear when you say the words "home visit". Get them on Zoom; it's harder to lie or pretend to be sane when face to face, and you can ask to see the home background. Do this more than once with strangers. People with nothing to hide won't mind a bit. This is to protect your pup from a puppy mill environment, b/c those people won't care two cents about her Merle background since they could sell her pups regardless.

2) Also be careful from PM's from members here who volunteer to adopt her who have never posted. I ban scammers every day but some are sneaky and get through, but what they have in common is they never or very rarely post anything. Check them out very carefully (off line, not here on the threads). If you have any questions or concerns, PM me.

3) Visit the Member page of the *United Poodle Association*. This is a fairly new organization for non-solid colored poodles for show and breeding. I counted four members in your state and a few in nearby states. I recommend emailing them about your dilemma and if any of them would help you find a home for yours, since not all of them will have an available litter of pups anytime soon. I imagine at least one would send one of their referrals your way.

I hope you are diligent in landing her with a family were she will be pampered for the rest of her life. Her fate hangs in the balance with what you do next. Good luck.


----------



## Elizabeth (Aug 27, 2012)

I am sorry the breeder was not honest with you and that this pup can't be part of your breeding program. I hope you are able to rehome her safely using Vita's recommendations. She is so gorgeous that I would think many people who would provide excellent homes for her would be willing to jump through all the hoops to prove their honorable intentions.


----------

