# Poodle colors and their personalities?



## sophiebonita

Any truth in the 'every color poodle has its own personality' thing? And what are they supposed to be? I was told once I shouldn't have a red or apricot poodle because I have little kids. Baloney or no? Thanks for your responses!

BTW - I'm a new proud owner of a black 3-month old mini and have a 4 & 6 year old. 


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## zyrcona

There may be something in it, in that dogs from particular lineages that have been bred for a long time for a certain colour may tend towards a particular temperament that's been inadvertently selected for during the process. But this doesn't mean that temperament is somehow connected to the colour. Most of the colours are determined at a single locus or a combination of two or three. If a black line, unbeknownst to the breeder, has carried brown for generations and then this breeder chances to combine two dogs both carrying this gene, and a brown puppy is born, the puppy is unlikely to differ significantly from the other dogs except in its colour.


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## PaddleAddict

Some people believe strongly that the different colors have different temperaments, quirks, etc., but I am not one of them. I really think a poodle is a poodle and there is a variety of temperament throughout the breed. Although because some breeders stick to one or two colors you might see certain things in their line of black dogs or whatever, but I think that's more due to the consistency of that line than the color.

I love black minis!!!


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## LEUllman

Yep, those redheads have fiery tempers, and blondes have more fun. :wink:


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## tortoise

sophiebonita said:


> Any truth in the 'every color poodle has its own personality' thing?


Absolutely zero truth to that idea. It would defy the Law of Independent Assortment. 

Mendelian inheritance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## PlayfulPup

Years ago I kept running into sites that said apricots had the best temperament and that chocolates had bad tempers. I totally believed it until doing a search on here and everyone said no way. 


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## Anntig

Studies on cats rats and foxes have all found links between coat colour and temperament so I believe there is a strong connection, (unfortunately I lost the links to those studies when my pc died but a search on google should find them) the same chemical that produces the red colour in cats also has an effect on their hormonal balance. I worked for a rescue cattery for a number of years and the tortie theory was proved over and over again.
where people go wrong is thinking in absolutes ie bella has a black coat so must have a cuddly temperament whereas bella's temperament is also affected by the other genes she inherited, her mothers temperament and how she was raised. 
If you treat it as a general rule it does work a black dog is more likely to be cuddly than a brown but you could have a brown and a black and find that your brown is cuddlier.

Ah here's one of the links it makes interesting reading
http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColor.htm


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## PaddleAddict

Anntig said:


> Studies on cats rats and foxes have all found links between coat colour and temperament so I believe there is a strong connection, (unfortunately I lost the links to those studies when my pc died but a search on google should find them) the same chemical that produces the red colour in cats also has an effect on their hormonal balance. I worked for a rescue cattery for a number of years and the tortie theory was proved over and over again.
> where people go wrong is thinking in absolutes ie bella has a black coat so must have a cuddly temperament whereas bella's temperament is also affected by the other genes she inherited, her mothers temperament and how she was raised.
> If you treat it as a general rule it does work a black dog is more likely to be cuddly than a brown but you could have a brown and a black and find that your brown is cuddlier.
> 
> Ah here's one of the links it makes interesting reading
> Norway rat coat color, temperament, and domestication


Maybe you were thinking of the Russian fox experiment? The researchers wanted to see if by selecting for tameness in the silver fox, breeding only those foxes that were the least aggressive and unafraid of humans. 

Not only was the experiment a success in that they were able to select and breed for tameness, but the researchers were surprised that the foxes slowly changed physically over generations of breeding: they developed floppy ears, short tails or curly tails, and their color even changed to piebald, which apparently is a color seen in domesticated animals only. So by selecting for temperament--tameness--they inadvertently changed the foxes physically, too. Really fascinating stuff! 

Man’s new best friend? A forgotten Russian experiment in fox domestication | Guest Blog, Scientific American Blog Network

This is a very detailed explanation of the project with awesome photos: http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf


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## Bunny

Wow, that fox study is really fascinating!

There have also been studies done on human hair color. They found overwhelming evidence of redheads needing more anesthesia than would be normal for that individual's height/weight as well as higher doses of pain medicines than would be normally given. Additionally, even though the redheads needed more of both types of drugs, their pain tolerances/thresholds were greater as well.

I'm a redhead and have noticed these tendencies in myself (although I rarely take any painkillers - I guess because my tolerance/threshold is high?). My husband is a surgeon and has noticed the same things, anecdotally, in his patients. Between that and being married to me for 30 years, the study he found on this caught his attention.

Of course, these are generalizations and there are always individuals who don't fit this at all, so YMMV!


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## Trillium

I totally don't buy into the theory that colour determines their temperaments. 

I have 3 red spoos and 3 kids and they all get along beautifully together. My kids use them as pillows, blankets and mattresses. My daughter dresses them up in weird and wonderful outfit and thye totally don't care as long as she is happy so are they. In fact 2 of them are currently sleeping with my kids in their beds. My son complains that Jenny is a bed hog. I know Betty Jo is because she sleeps with me. Cayenne has been also working on talking over my son's bed. That is of course when she isn't sneaking into my other son's room to kiss him good night 

I've also had 2 apricot boys and they were wonderful with kids!! My first boy Rusty assumed that all kids belonged to him and loved them all to death! He was 4 years old when we had our first child and he was truly wonderful with him. Which is extra special when you consider that he had been around very few kids before we had our own. Rusty just assumed from the moment we brought our son home that he was his boy. 

My second boy Sport was the most calm laid back boy that you would have ever met (except when he saw a squirrel) To the point when we first started to let my oldest son go for walks around the neighbourhood on his own it was with our apricot boy. We let our son take Sport for walks because we were sure that Sport would take care of him. My neightbours called him a living gund because every time they were over he spent most of the time sleeping on the couch. After he said hi of course.


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## tortoise

Bunny said:


> I'm a redhead and have noticed these tendencies in myself (although I rarely take any painkillers - I guess because my tolerance/threshold is high?). My husband is a surgeon and has noticed the same things, anecdotally, in his patients. Between that and being married to me for 30 years, the study he found on this caught his attention.
> 
> Of course, these are generalizations and there are always individuals who don't fit this at all, so YMMV!


Human colors are very strongly related to ethnic lines. How many dark-skinned people with naturally red or blonde hair do you see? We know that health concerns follow ethnicity in people.

If a color was associated with a specific trait, wouldn't that be observed in dogs of the same color throughout all breeds?


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## Anntig

PaddleAddict said:


> Maybe you were thinking of the Russian fox experiment? The researchers wanted to see if by selecting for tameness in the silver fox, breeding only those foxes that were the least aggressive and unafraid of humans.
> 
> Not only was the experiment a success in that they were able to select and breed for tameness, but the researchers were surprised that the foxes slowly changed physically over generations of breeding: they developed floppy ears, short tails or curly tails, and their color even changed to piebald, which apparently is a color seen in domesticated animals only. So by selecting for temperament--tameness--they inadvertently changed the foxes physically, too. Really fascinating stuff!
> 
> Man’s new best friend? A forgotten Russian experiment in fox domestication | Guest Blog, Scientific American Blog Network
> 
> This is a very detailed explanation of the project with awesome photos: http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf


Yes that's the one thanks P.A :act-up:
There's a study here done on cocker spaniels that also show a link
Discovery Channel :: News - Animals :: Fur Color Linked to Dog Personality

and a quote from that article
"While genes control coat color and appear to predispose behavior in certain dogs, Pérez-Guisado said that how dogs are raised plays the biggest role in behavior. He determined that environmental factors account for 80 percent of dominant, aggressive personalities while genes only influence 20 percent of dogs' demeanors."


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## fjm

I do remember reading the research into cat colour and temperament - Ginger cats were found to be more laid back, and there was evidence that "Norty Torties" (Calico, I think in the US) were not just anecdotal. The genes that code for some colours are closely linked to other physical developments, so there is always the possibility that there is a correlation in some cases. But there are so many variables in temperament and behaviour that it is impossible to say "all poodles are...", let alone "all red poodles are..."!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

In over 50 years of living with this breed, we have had mostly blacks in my youth, with the occasional brown and white in the mix. As an adult, it has been silvers and now reds. I have observed no difference in temperament or intelligence based on colour at all. If they are treated the same, with the same expectations and boundaries, their temperaments are the same from one colour to the next.


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> I do remember reading the research into cat colour and temperament - Ginger cats were found to be more laid back, and there was evidence that "Norty Torties" (Calico, I think in the US) were not just anecdotal. The genes that code for some colours are closely linked to other physical developments, so there is always the possibility that there is a correlation in some cases. But there are so many variables in temperament and behaviour that it is impossible to say "all poodles are...", let alone "all red poodles are..."!


A tortie here is a mottled 2-color cat with no white (sable & red burmese, for example). A calico is a 3-color cat with white and nearly always female. Is that the same as you were thinking?

As far as linking temperament and color genetically, while it is possible, I think it is much more likely that when we breed for color, there's more breeding in certain lines which would make those temperaments more likely. A good example of this is the red and cream burmese - red point siamese were cross-bred into burmese to get these colors. They're recessive, so any red or cream burmese has some dose of siamese in them. I don't think it's surprising that red/cream burmese are known for being more talkative and pushy than the other colors.

As far as the fox study, the problem there is that they're not taking into account natural selection. If curly tails or soft ears or spotted coat colors mean the fox is less likely to reproduce (which we don't know), then of course the only time those traits come up regularly is when humans forceably choose the breeding pairs.


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## dogs123

I have bred quarter horses for years....my old horse vet has said that over his 45 years of working on horses, the ones that gave him the most trouble were palominos, and greys....he said that he felt they were more temperamental than the sorrels, or bays, or chesnuts.

I haven't personally noticed much difference, except I did own a grey gelding and he was pistol....never owned a paly...

All of my mares are either sorrel, chestnut, or buckskin. And they are pretty easy to be around.

I have heard people say though, that they prefer either sorrels or bays....
Taste in color or temperament.....? Dunno.


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## PaddleAddict

stealthq said:


> As far as the fox study, the problem there is that they're not taking into account natural selection. If curly tails or soft ears or spotted coat colors mean the fox is less likely to reproduce (which we don't know), then of course the only time those traits come up regularly is when humans forceably choose the breeding pairs.


Exactly! And you have domesticated animals. It's fascinating that by ONLY selecting for tameness and nothing else, these physical characteristics changed in the foxes. So how are those physcial characteristics connected to tameness?


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## Marcie

Bunny said:


> Wow, that fox study is really fascinating!
> 
> There have also been studies done on human hair color. They found overwhelming evidence of redheads needing more anesthesia than would be normal for that individual's height/weight as well as higher doses of pain medicines than would be normally given. Additionally, even though the redheads needed more of both types of drugs, their pain tolerances/thresholds were greater as well.
> 
> I'm a redhead and have noticed these tendencies in myself (although I rarely take any painkillers - I guess because my tolerance/threshold is high?). My husband is a surgeon and has noticed the same things, anecdotally, in his patients. Between that and being married to me for 30 years, the study he found on this caught his attention.
> 
> Of course, these are generalizations and there are always individuals who don't fit this at all, so YMMV!


Apparently this is true. I have heard this from several people in the nursing industry. I am a redhead and did not know this until I went in for colon cancer surgery. I have a friend that is a nurse and she was there the whole time with me. She said although I was knocked out after the surgery, I was still showing signs of extreme pain and they could not give me any more painkiller without puting me to sleep permenantly. She asked them to give me a different painkiller and they gave me a muscle relaxer instead, but apparently the muscle relaxer worked with the painkiller and she said I finally was able to rest.

With her staying with me and not letting them wake me up at night I was able to heal quicker and to get out of the hospital on the 3rd day instead of a week. I did go home and rest in bed but I was back to work the second week after the surgery. It is amazing how getting enough sleep will help heal you.

Even when I have had dental surgery they have to give me more medication than normal.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't believe there is any direct connection between color itself and temperament. However, certain lines of poodles may be heavy in certain types of temperaments. Additionally, most lines focus on one color or one set of complementary colors. You can connect the dots.


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## Trillium

Even as far as human goes the hair colour thing as flaws my sister is a redhead and has a high pain tolerance. She keeps going with things that would flatten many people. My dad has dark hair (or at least whatever that is still not grey) but has a (when he grows one) a red beard. His pain tolerance is amazing. If he asks for a bandage we know he probably needs stitches.


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## PlayfulPup

Marcie said:


> Apparently this is true. I have heard this from several people in the nursing industry. I am a redhead and did not know this until I went in for colon cancer surgery. I have a friend that is a nurse and she was there the whole time with me. She said although I was knocked out after the surgery, I was still showing signs of extreme pain and they could not give me any more painkiller without puting me to sleep permenantly. She asked them to give me a different painkiller and they gave me a muscle relaxer instead, but apparently the muscle relaxer worked with the painkiller and she said I finally was able to rest.
> 
> With her staying with me and not letting them wake me up at night I was able to heal quicker and to get out of the hospital on the 3rd day instead of a week. I did go home and rest in bed but I was back to work the second week after the surgery. It is amazing how getting enough sleep will help heal you.
> 
> Even when I have had dental surgery they have to give me more medication than normal.


I am a reddish brown and for my c-section they had to give me more of the spinal stuff than normal. I healed well too, and surprised nurses both times in how fast I was able to get up and get moving... One nurse got after me about needing to get up and walk a lap down the hall (walking speeds healing) and walking in the room, which I had been doing, does not count (I assume she has encountered liars in the past?) So I got up and did 3 laps and only stopped since I had been previously warned by my doctor not to over do it. No one talked to me about walking again.  Could this be attributed to high pain tolerance, skilled OB, or both? My sister is full red head and has zero pain tolerance, lol. There always has to be exceptions to the rule!


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## zyrcona

PaddleAddict said:


> Exactly! And you have domesticated animals. It's fascinating that by ONLY selecting for tameness and nothing else, these physical characteristics changed in the foxes. So how are those physcial characteristics connected to tameness?


My personal interpretation of this is that the recessive genes were in the population and cropping up all along, but in a wild situation, they are selected _against_. For example, a piebald fox would be easier to see by predators and probably be removed from the gene pool for those reasons. In the domestic situation, there are no predators, so pied foxes survive and breed. Hence the phenotype distribution in captivity is more truly reflective of the _potential genotype distribution_ in the species, and the researchers didn't select for traits that are linked to tameness, but merely deselected for traits that promote survival in the wild environment. This is genetic drift and chaotic stuff going on, and if they repeated the experiments with a new batch of foxes, they'd probably find different hidden traits emerging.

You can apply the same to breeding programmes, particularly as if you trace a great many lines back, they go to the same ancestors. Most apricot dogs go back to Vulcan Golden Light hundreds of times, so it's quite possible the influence of this dog has resulted in genetic drift towards a particular personality trait. Perhaps apricots are cuddly, but potentially chance apricots thrown from other unrelated lines aren't.


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## Bunny

This is from a study by the National Institutes of Health:



> Red hair is the phenotype for mutations of the melanocortin 1 receptor. Our results indicate that redheads are more sensitive to thermal pain and are resistant to the analgesic effects of subcutaneous lidocaine. Mutations of the melanocortin 1 receptor, or a consequence thereof, thus modulate pain sensitivity.


 Increased Sensitivity to Thermal Pain and Reduced Subcutaneous Lidocaine Efficacy in Redheads Interestingly (to me, at least) is that the trait was also mentioned was sensitivity to pain. In my OP, I mentioned a high pain threshold, which I certainly do have. I had a complete bowel obstruction, which manifested with only an "upset stomach." One bowel resection surgery and two weeks in the hospital, I was fine. LOL

While I certainly don't think that dog colors and behaviors are necessarily connected, it is interesting that human hair color is associated with mutations of the receptor regarding pain. Pigment/hair color in dogs could be associated _maybe_ with behavior, but I'd suspect behavior in dogs has much more to do with breeding lines (heritable traits - breeders select for "tameness" - within the desired color outcome - as in the fox study) and next and maybe more importantly, environment. I believe how a dog is treated probably has the most to do with its temperament. 

While dogs definitely each have their own personalities, sensitive owners know how to interact with their own pets. It may also be that certain personalities (people) prefer certain colors of dogs (I personally prefer lighter colors) and so they find a dog within that color, or treat the dog they get a certain way which elicits certain behaviors.

I have no idea. LOL


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## Countryboy

PaddleAddict said:


> So how are those physical characteristics connected to tameness?


Nobody knows yet. The Belyaev experiments are pretty much at a cutting edge of genetic technology and learning. Fortunately!... they continue.


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