# Holistically Raised Puppies



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

After being on this and other dog forums over a lot of years now, I, like most of you have read about so many illnesses in peoples' dogs, chronic illness that has to do with the immune system. We see many of those same type of things in humans too. I believe many of these diseases or chronic states of less than optimal health or really serious issues are connected to foreign substances like vaccines being put into the body in a most unnatural way...vaccines, unnatural diets, chemicals and more. I, like everyone wants their dogs to be in the best of health and we do what we think is best based on the information the experts (sometimes so called experts say) and I am _not_ convinced that vaccines protect like the mainstream public thinks. I always believed in puppy vaccinations but not in continuing vaccinations with the frequency that is traditional. I haven't believed in that for probably 15-20 years, even before there was so much interest and research into it. 

I am making changes gradually in how I raise my dogs to be more holistic because I truly believe what I put into my dogs bodies has a direct relation to their health and well being. I have not done everything I can.....yet. I still use fungicide on my roses and fertilizer on my grass, (but keep the dogs off until it's well washed down). Some of it is organic but some isn't. (some organic doesn't work) But maybe I'll do more in that area. I gave puppy vaccines but that is all. I have switched about 5 or 6 months ago to the best nutrition I know of, a diet that is as close to natural as I can and that is basically a prey model type diet. (close)

A lot of research is being done by places like Purdue University on vaccinations and the immune system. A lot of what they're finding is inline with what I am finding through other readings and what I've seen. Here are some articles that might be of interest to others besides me. I find them very thought provoking.



Parvo & Other Doggie Diseases | Holistically Raised Puppies



The Best Part About the New Dog Vaccination Guidelines


This is definitely food for thought. And the links _within_ are a definite _must read. (I think)_

http://www.thewholedog.org/Vaccinations.pdf


How many here take their dogs to a holistic vet or to both a traditional and holistic vet? I think there is a place for both, most certainly. I love learning and educating myself and this is one area I'd like to know more about. What kinds of things do you do if you have faith in something more close to "natural" rearing? If you can, read the articles and discuss what's in the articles...if you like. :alberteinstein:


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Having just endured a horror show with two sick puppies, I have some new thoughts about vaccines. Puppy shots gave me a false sense of security. I didn't take into account maternal antibodies. When young puppies get their shots, their mother's antibodies are still circulating. Especially with the first shot. My vet just told me the first shot at 8 weeks is basically useless.

Second shot at 10 weeks. Third shot at 12. My dog is vaccinated and safe from all evils. Not necessarily. Depending on how powerful those maternal antibodies were, all three vaccines could be useless. The critical shots are the boosters at one year. By then, maternal antibodies will be finished and the vaccine can do its job.

Had I known... Could I have prevented my dogs from getting sick? Probably not. I'm not going to look in the rear view mirror and wonder if I could have prevented this. Instead, I am sitting next to Noelle and feeling blessed she's alive and getting stronger. I'm sitting next to my sweet girl and wondering how to disguise her IV shaved leg. Miami trim? HCC? She's a puppy, so I don't know how an HCC would look. I'm so glad she is alive.

My vets do not believe there is science behind vaccinating dogs every year. They recommend every three years, even though the bottle says give shots every year. Too much of a good thing isn't a good thing. Neither is too little.

I like this balanced approach. It only exposes a dog to vaccines a few times in their lives.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Holistic medicine is _*not*_ alternate medicine. It means to consider and treat the entire (whole) organism. A belief that the administration of nano-doses of poisons and pathogens to the organism will cure or or prevent the diseases caused by those pathogens is absurd. Most alternate medicine has been a knee jerk reaction to the mainstream of the money grubbing medical profession. Some see it as an alternative with less invasive methods, others see money to be made where money is spent in abundance. There has been a lot of good research done recently into the placebo effect and the power of it. A recent study found placebos to be 50% more effective than conventional medicines. This is outside treatments that are life saving. One famous study had people treated with acupuncture. One set of patients had real needles and one dummy needles a third had none. The results for the dummy needles were the same as the real and this included anesthesia. Good bedside manner and placebo are faring better than the mainstream medicine. It is then, no real surprise that alternate practitioners are being so successful. There is a need for the kind of caring and consultation that the medical profession have left behind as science has revolutionized the profession.

By all means seek out caring alternate practitioners, They _*will*_ make you feel better. But in case of severe illness see your vet or doctor.

Please do not advise the sick to do this.

Please do not rely on alternate therapies to ward off or cure sickness in your dog.

Be wary of herbal remedies. They are often the same drugs as are used in the profession but are not purified. They can contain other alkaloids that can cause problems.

*Natural *is not necessarily better. It just sounds like it should be.

Every year hundreds die from herbal treatments and many more are made sick or sicker.

Eric:angel2:


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I agree with Eric's approach! I eat organic food, and feed the dogs organic food; we are lucky enough to live in a town with fresh mountain air and water from the headwaters in the Rocky Mountains. I never use any chemicals inside my house (eg for cleaning) or outside in my garden or yard. I also have a progressive vet. BUT. If one of my dogs had a medical problem, I would RUSH to the vet for treatment. No waiting it out for me!


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

I am a firm believer in vaccinations but I do think we have tended to over vaccinate in the past. I think we need more research in this area. Personally, I like titers once a dog is an adult, but those are controversial still. I really believe puppies should have their full set of shots and I believe in following the law as far as rabies goes.

I would love to feed all of us grass fed and free range and 100% organic but I can't even afford to do that full time for the human members of our family.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

shell said:


> I am a firm believer in vaccinations but I do think we have tended to over vaccinate in the past. I think we need more research in this area. Personally, I like titers once a dog is an adult, but those are controversial still. I really believe puppies should have their full set of shots and I believe in following the law as far as rabies goes.
> 
> I would love to feed all of us grass fed and free range and 100% organic but I can't even afford to do that full time for the human members of our family.


Very small dogs are vulnerable to overdosing with meds, Period. The whole concept of vaccination is being invaded by alternate medicine junkies. Use your own intuitive sense, If it sounds too good it is most likely ineffective.
Eric


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Did anybody read those links by any chance? That's what I was hoping the discussion could be bounced off of. I rather take exception to the term, "alternative medicine _junkies_"...a derogatory description (unless I'm _perceiving_ the intentions incorrectly) of people who are very interested in finding different and better answers. I see nothing negative about looking at alternatives, especially when traditional medicine isn't all it's cracked up to be. Looking at alternatives is something like taking your head out of the sand and looking around instead of staying stagnant and not trying to find better or more effective ways. There's a lot of science that is showing that many people who are suspicious of vaccinations or who fear them may very well be on the right track. But burying one's head in the sand and not looking at new research, reading, learning isn't how progress is made. 

I agree with most of what you say Shell except that I'm not what might be termed a "firm" believer in vaccines. I believe in them up to a point and in certain situations. AND I believe in them until I'm shown that my belief is wrong. As I read and learn, I'm finding very gradually that my beliefs may be wrong or partially wrong. 

But when I look at this, VACCINE REACTION ESSAY: VETERINARY PHOTOS OF INJECTION SITE CANCERS written by a veterinarian, with a quote from Dr. Schultz, considered the leading expert in immunology, I see that repeated vaccinations are not worth destroying my dogs' immune systems. And I don't mean just yearly vaccinations. I mean repeated. Titers are great. But I also firmly believe that a healthy dog fed a healthy diet that meant for a dog is better equipped to fight illness. And that's why I'm feeding an "alternate" diet from commercial kibble. And my dogs have turned into natural, prey diet "junkies." 

I don't know if anybody has the time to read anything but just in case, here's a study from Purdue University that interests me. Their final thought is that vaccine's benefits outweigh the risks. I'm not quite sure I agree. I might agree but I need more time to read, learn and reflect. I think chronic disease can't be much fun. And this is what many animals get from vaccines. And it looks like there's a genetic component as to their susceptibility. Then I ask myself, would I rather live with some wretched, debilitating auto immune disease where my immune system is little by little attacking my body all my life long or just get acutely sick and get it over with? What would I want for my dog? 

Purdue Vaccination Study

In the links in my original post, there were some links I thought were very interesting and informative but when I tried to click on the links, (the links within the links,) they wouldn't work. But anyhow, those original links work.

Anyhow, I know we're probably all busy. I know I am, doing lots of gardening. I wish I could hire a gardener. I have a kazillion annuals to plant...got my tomatoes and peppers in yesterday. So I'm outside a great deal of the day. This nice weather probably has you all out doing yard work or just having fun. So, sorry if I ignore this thread for a bit. I started it and then I go gallivanting around, huh. :act-up::argh:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> Very small dogs are vulnerable to overdosing with meds, Period. The whole concept of vaccination is being invaded by alternate medicine junkies. Use your own intuitive sense, *If it sounds too good it is most likely ineffective.*
> Eric


I think that is exactly what happened with vaccinations. They've been touted to be the miracle of miracles, worshiped like they came from the gods. But make no mistake. They come with their fair share of evils. There are so many dogs that have been vaccinated against certain diseases, like Parvo and then they get parvo anyhow. And the studies that I've read show that those that were vaccinated and then get it, do not recover as well as those that get parvo but weren't vaccinated. Maybe because their immune systems haven't been nearly destroyed. 

I understand that vaccines may have their place. But the way they're often given is disturbing to me. They say,_ to be given to healthy dogs only. (or something to that effect.)_ Well, are our dogs _really_ healthy enough to withstand the assault from them? What kind of immune systems do they have? What kind of genetics? What kind of food are they eating? How strong are they really? Natural immunity happens through the mucus membranes, not injected directly into the blood stream. This whole thing bothers me. I bet one day, they'll come up with something better.


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

I didn't read the articles, but here's my thoughts on the whole matter...

I take ibuprofen when I have a headache, and I wouldn't hesitate to give Riley medicine if he was sick. However, as long as he is healthy, I have decided to take steps to improve his health, which to me means limiting medicines and vaccines (he got all his one-year shots prior to us adopting him), feeding quality food, and fresh air and exercise. I'd rather titer than give him a vaccine every year. 

We feed Riley commercial raw food, with the hope to transition him to homemade raw in about a month or so. Because our current vet believes very strongly against raw (and believes very strongly for Science Diet and Royal Canine), I've found a new vet 40 minutes away that advocates for a raw diet. This vet does both holistic and traditional medicines and is more in-line with how I want to raise Riley. 

It is all about balance. Traditional medicine has a place in our lives, and like Eric said, many medicines (like chemo drugs) are derived from plants. But when a dog is healthy, I don't see the need to over-medicate.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled I totally get you and I totally believe you should do, what you think, in your heart, is best for your pups. 

When I say I am a firm believer in vaccinations, I'm thinking of things like.. how rabies is rare in the U.S. and yet, in other countries, that don't have the same vaccination laws-it is still rampant. Diseases that used to devastate the k-9 population have been so few and far between due to the use of vaccines... Some of them, are like a flu shot... (I know, that's a whole other subject  ) but what I'm saying is, even if it's not 100% and your dog does happen to get sick (which is a very low chance) -they still stand a better chance of surviving due to the vaccination they received. That's where my view is coming from... 

I do really believe that we over vaccinate-and I have read articles on the belief that it is causing some of the autoimmune diseases out there. We give the same dose to a great dane that we do to a maltese. I'm not even convinced that we need them every 3 years-that is why I believe w really need more research in this area.

I totally think raw diets are great as long as they are balanced and your dog does well with them. I think home cooking is great and did it for a long time myself. Nothing in the natural and holistic type market has worked for my dogs though and we are now using Science Diet...

It's so hard to know what is right and what isn't too, because I've noticed this holistic side (thinking dogs naturally magazine in particular) tends to use a lot of fear mongering in pushing that agenda and the other end of the spectrum pushes studies that are way outdated and research that is unfortunately biased. We just have to read the info for ourselves and try to pick out the bits of truth I guess.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, or move to extremes. Just because there may be dangers to _over_ vaccinating doesn't mean that _never_ vaccinating is the solution. Just because some people dive off the deep end into alternative medicine theories doesn't mean that all alternative medicine is bad.

There's a thing I've heard described as Second-option bias. It's basically a phenomenon wherein someone has a strongly held belief, and then when they find out that that belief may be flawed in some way, they immediately assume that the opposite belief must be true. It's a tendency to reject or embrace the entirety of a thing (science vs homeopathy, for example), rather than drilling down and look at each piece.

Be careful about cherrypicking studies, especially if they happen to support your pre-existing suspicions. Studies generally only mean anything in aggregate, which means that consensus is more likely to be accurate than the exceptions are. You also always want to look at things like sample size, whether anyone has tried to repeat it, etc. 

The human brain has evolved to be really good at recognizing patterns, which is usually a good thing but also leaves us prone to mistaking coincidence for cause and effect. Tumors at vaccine injection sites are very likely an example of that. Given how widespread vaccination is, you'd think the tumor phenomenon would be proportionately widespread if there was a straight cause and effect relationship between the two. But they really aren't that common.

I do get that this is difficult stuff - it's hard enough to figure out the best way to keep humans healthy, and we have waaaaay better research available on that. You kind of have to look at what's out there, then make the best decisions you can and see how it goes.

It's important to factor in personal limitations as well. I know I can't do a raw diet and all-organic foods and make the lifestyle choices that would prevent my dogs from being exposed to preventable diseases. I can research good, balanced commercial kibbles, and that's what I do. The dogs are on fairly hardcore chemical flea meds because my cat is so allergic that the risk to him of getting a flea is higher than the risk of my dogs getting a side effect from a widely used medication - especially since I know I can't do the things that would prevent a flea from getting into the house otherwise. So you weigh the risks and factor in your own capabilities and you do what you can.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

lisasgirl said:


> I think it's important not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, or move to extremes. Just because there may be dangers to _over_ vaccinating doesn't mean that _never_ vaccinating is the solution. Just because some people dive off the deep end into alternative medicine theories doesn't mean that all alternative medicine is bad.
> 
> There's a thing I've heard described as Second-option bias. It's basically a phenomenon wherein someone has a strongly held belief, and then when they find out that that belief may be flawed in some way, they immediately assume that the opposite belief must be true. It's a tendency to reject or embrace the entirety of a thing (science vs homeopathy, for example), rather than drilling down and look at each piece.
> 
> ...


I totally get you on this. I'm really into science, understand methodology and research all kinds of things. I spent years studying evolution for a book I was writing. I am just fascinated with a lot of different things. I read books from authorities on a subject as well as what I can find on the Internet. I absolutely don't go to just one source but look at many. Purdue University is a pretty reliable source I'd say and I read the studies, not just articles about the studies because I want to see just how they came up with things. I absolutely don't go with just one article or just one place like Dogs naturally. I don't agree with everything they write about raw diets either. But I read them along with many other things. There are reports from veterinarians and techs that show they're very concerned. I think there is more than simple coincidence involved. Like I said originally, I do think there is a place for vaccinations. But I think the way they give them needs to be modified, how they're preserved and administered etc. And they need to be reserved for the most serious diseases imo and not bunched up with a whole lot of things that aren't necessary. And they sure do. It's way over-kill imo. 

As far as why some dogs don't get tumors or don't get other autoimmune diseases may be linked to genetics, as explained in the study done by Purdue. They are looking at the dangers of vaccines very thoroughly and seriously. There's enough concern that they and many others are definitely doing the research. And that's what is needed. 

*lunch break over...back to chores* lol.


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