# Vent: Kid reactivity, family tension, and the feeling of the end of the future.



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry things ended up being so overwhelming when you were just trying to have a normal evening in an abnormal time. I would work on using her crate to advantage. I strongly recommend a darkening cover for her crate so she can see much of the activities at least in the short term. I think this would also be a situation where a behaviorist who can come to your home and see this kind of scenario would be a good idea. For now though take a good deep cleansing breath or two. Peace for you all.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Hugs, even though I did everything right with taking my dogs to loads of different places and meeting loads of people, pandemic isolation undid my dogs confidence.
Do you know what, going back to baby steps in exposure gave them confidence again. 
Figure every pet owner is in your shoes too


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## ShamrockPoodle (Jan 22, 2017)

I had a dog trainer remind me that everyone—people or other dogs-entering your space are entering your pack! It’s like I already knew that—but when she said that it put things in perspective. Some dogs are friendly but shy and others are bold and in your face. I have one of each! The trainer did help me know how to read body language so I know when my dogs have had enough and need a break. It’s hard with kids visiting your space. One of my poodles loves hyper kids snd the other one is a bit scared!


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

Yeah, you're not alone. Friends & family my age are starting to have kids and Basil (SPOO, 1-3/4 years old) is a collision hazard because the kids aren't big or tall enough yet.. Basil is a 40 pound (18 kg) sack of rice on 4 legs. She loves toddlers.

I've tried tethering her to me the entire time (no fun for me). When we're at my parents and guests come over, I've found it's best is to keep her in a bedroom with the door closed. She barks, but eventually it stops. (I live in a studio a few miles away.)

Another option, if it's available, is to drop Oona off with a family/friend to have them watch her for the night. This might take some effort on your end. Bonus points if they have a dog so it's like a sleep-over playdate. Then give the human $ or a a "thank you" baked gift like something boujee from the local French bakery depending on your relationship.

You're a wonderful furmom.


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

I can relate to the spousal tension. My husband tolerates the dog, but that's about it. He can see how much joy she brings me, but doesn't like the mess or the woofing or the way she wants to play when we are watching TV or how we have to plan our lives around her bladder. I think this is why I put in so much energy training her and why we started doing agility. Hang in there.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh, I bet that was stressful and zero fun. I am so sorry. I hope you hire a trainer soon.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

So sorry, and I can relate to this situation! My first thought was that the friends should have hired a babysitter. In the olden days, when I grew up, kids stayed home while adults enjoyed socializing. Dogs didn't have to deal with the stress or the excitement of a baby/small kid.


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## Meisha (Sep 21, 2020)

When Meisha was 2 and my grandniece was 5, they were not a good mix. Meisha was excited to see adults and wary of this tiny person who would not stop moving. Meisha would sniff, tiny person would scream (like only a 5 year old girl can) and Meisha would jump on me for comfort and look even scarier to tiny person. 

Fast forward a year and now 6 year old niece is pulling Meisha around by the harness, throwing the ball for her, lecturing her on good manners and "fixing" her hair. They only saw each other once in between.

Training is important but things can also just calm down naturally, depending on dog and little human.

Good luck! And tell your husband he is a poopy head. (Well no, but think it if it helps).


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I can imagine it was very stressful trying to manage your stress with Oona and with your husband. How old is Oona now? 

I will give a comparison that isn't with kids, but makes me think of a similar issue that Misha grew out of.

When Misha was younger (<2 yrs) he always had to be tethered if he was at human social events where people brought their dogs. He was just _too_ interested in the dogs. In a friendly way, but it was too much. Sniffing, licking, playing, just all around bugging adult dogs. He acted like that _even though_ he got to play off leash with lots of dogs nearly every single day. Now that he is a mature adult he still _sometimes _acts that way when somebody brings a new dog. And if he does, I tether him. But usually when he meets the dog for the second time he's totally normal and doesn't bug them at all. And these days he doesn't even get to play with other dogs off leash so much. Kids, on the other hand, have never really been an issue for him because he's just inherently not as interested in them. But if he _was_ I would deal with it the same way.

So what's going through my mind is she's young, and this is her first encounter with a toddler and it's double exciting because it's in her home. It's just too much for her and she'll need to be managed/separated and desensitized until the excitement wears off. And it will!

I think tethering her or crating her is good, but it also means that you have to focus on management rather than enjoying yourself.

Encountering young kids at a distance and slowly working her up being around them will allow her to get used to them without being over threshold. It probably won't take that long, especially if you work with a good trainer.

Perhaps you can temporarily meet friends at a local park (or elsewhere) while Oona stays home so that you're not stressed by managing her. And you can separately work on desensitizing Oona to children so that you'll soon be able to have successful gatherings in your own home. Eventually you might bring Oona to meet this toddler at a park rather than at your home, and she likely won't be as excited as she was at home. New things in the home are always double exciting. Age will also help a great deal. You'll be amazed at the well behaved dog you have by the time she's three!


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Pre-COVID puppy Normie thought kids were the greatest. Now he's scared of them.

I do have a suggestion. Next time, let your husband do the hosting and keep your focus on Oona. 
That's your only job.

If she's calm enough, sit and talk while a leashed Oona sits with you. If not, take her away when she's too much. Stay with her and calm her down and then you both come back. Repeat...

We had to do this with Normie when our daughter started visiting again. It took time, but now after 15-30 minutes on the leash, he can be turned loose. 

You are not alone. It's a tough slog.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Thanks all, very much. You're the best. 


Basil_the_Spoo said:


> Another option, if it's available, is to drop Oona off with a family/friend to have them watch her for the night. This might take some effort on your end. Bonus points if they have a dog so it's like a sleep-over playdate. Then give the human $ or a a "thank you" baked gift like something boujee from the local French bakery depending on your relationship.


@Basil_the_Spoo , we don't have anyone presently who I could ask to do this, but maybe we will one day. I am making more dog/dog friendly friends in the area. And come to think of it, with proper planning we might be able to drop her off to play with with the dog walker and her dog for a few hours.



Sroodle8 said:


> I can relate to the spousal tension. My husband tolerates the dog, but that's about it. He can see how much joy she brings me, but doesn't like the mess or the woofing or the way she wants to play when we are watching TV or how we have to plan our lives around her bladder. I think this is why I put in so much energy training her and why we started doing agility. Hang in there.


Thank you @Sroodle8. That was the worst: the not feeling like a team. I know dog stuff is my "thing", though he likes her more than tolerates her - they've even been bonding lately more and playing - but when there's a problem, it's my problem, and feels like my fault/failure.



Click-N-Treat said:


> Oh, I bet that was stressful and zero fun. I am so sorry. I hope you hire a trainer soon.


@Click-N-Treat yes. I described it as punishing - it's going to take a lot of work for me to want to try that again. We have several private sessions left with a trainer we worked with in the summer to address arousal around kids issue, so will resume those. I've already contacted her.



MaizieFrosty said:


> My first thought was that the friends should have hired a babysitter.


@MaizieFrosty in the future I think we will do just that (but their child might be 4-5 by the time I'm brave enough to have them over again 😂). We invited them over last minute yesterday morning and told them it should be ok with Oona and that we'd crate her if she couldn't handle it (which is what we did). I didn't anticipate how stressed she would be, even in the crate, with the toddler in the house. I am going to do more active crate acclimation and work on getting her used to a cover, plus practice having her chill her in my office or bedroom.



Raindrops said:


> I can imagine it was very stressful trying to manage your stress with Oona and with your husband. How old is Oona now?


Oona is almost 19 months, so possibly in a similar spot as Misha was. I'm glad to hear Misha calmed down around dogs. Oona has always been aroused and chase-y around kids. I hope that with work + time, she chills out. Luckily there is a lot we can work on even when we don't have controlled access to small kids to desensitize her to, which is hard to do until it warms up a bit


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

That sounds terribly stressful. It’s so much more stressful when your partner is adding to the stress instead of helping to diffuse. I’m sorry. Next time it’ll have to be better, right?

I think it’s a good life skill for a dog to be able to be shut in another room, and not necessarily in a crate. When we had 4 dogs and parties for the kids or even just people over, I would put the dogs in a bedroom, at least for the beginning of the party/visit, and sometimes for the whole time. It’s so handy when we have a repairman come into the house to be able to usher a dog into a room and not worry about them. Of course the last couple years we have been mostly isolating, but I started training Phoebe to be alone in a room a couple months ago, and she can go about 15 minutes now without worrying. I use both my room, which has her open crate in it, and my office room for this training. The next time we visit my parents or in-laws, I will pop her into one of their rooms so she can have the same training in a different space. Of course she makes herself comfortable on the bed instead of in her crate. (Oona isn’t allowed on beds right? At a former house, I used the laundry room because it was huge.) I use a fan and radio or tv turned on fairly loud to muffle outside noises. This skill has come in very handy over the years, with my best example is we had an emergency several years ago at 2am, and EMTs in and out (front door wide open) for over an hour - the dogs were quickly ushered into a bedroom and we didn’t hear them the whole time. I could focus on the emergency and have one less thing at the front of my mind.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

We have a similar situation with Buck and family visitors. I married into a family of never had dogs and my son did too. Their visits have been tense, because I don’t want any tears from my little grandsons or any injuries. I remember a holiday meal when Buck was around 1 1/2 with the in-laws. I specifically told my SIL to opt for slacks, just in case Buck jumped and accidentally scratched her. My MIL was frail, in her 80’s, and couldn’t risk being toppled. I managed him in the crate with a good chew. SIL showed up in a leather mini and got goosed under the table when DH, released him from his “prison” crate while we were seated for dessert. I manage “my” dog from then forward. Crate is great, but so is alternating dog sitting away from the excitement. Not optimal, but works for us. Buck is with us everyday, and their visits aren’t frequent. I can relate...


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Oh and the crate cover is essential here lately - probably 3 weeks now? Something about adolescents and being left out… if I want to maintain my sanity while cooking dinner, the pen is covered. The demand barking goes straight through me and sets me on edge in an instant. Covered so she can’t see the freedom that the cat has (the audacity!), she relaxes like always! 
My super fancy cover:


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Sympathies, @Oonapup !! I was wall to wall Ukraine this weekend myself. If you're a Twitter user (or even not, he's worth a peek), RadioFreeTom (Tom Nichols), is a great follow. He's in the process of retiring from his professorship at the Naval War College, and knows a lot about Russia and the Cold War.

His posts are fascinating, and he talks about many things, including his tastes in music, and ummm, a while back managed to go worldwide over his then-dislike of Indian food. Preet Bahara, God love him, has since helped the professor with a fresh introduction to Indian food, which they tweeted live and turned into a massive fundraiser. Highly entertaining, albeit not an account that often gets involved with people at a less than professorial level, but he has a sense of humor. A great one to sit back and read, to laugh with, and to learn. He'd probably reassure you a bit if you read the last few days' posts. He admits when he's wrong, like he didn't think Russia would invade Ukraine, but he's still an expert and multi-published author. Not a locked account, so no need to join Twitter to read him.

If interested in a hard reality view by another expert there, who _did_ see this coming years ago, contact me privately. It's a locked account people pay to follow, and intended as something along the lines of a graduate seminar.

At any rate, fwiw, @MaizieFrosty 's post harkens back to my childhood as well 😊. In fact, guess how I met my first Poodle? A babysitter who stayed with us when our parents went out of town. That little apricot Poodle was just about Oliver's size, too. And decades later, sometimes I wonder if my sweet guy mightn't be here on his second time around 💞.

Anyway, just trying to share a bit and help you feel better. I've grown fond of you and your Oona girl through PF. Hugs; I feel this will work out when you find a great positive trainer or behaviorist. The latter would be my choice - years ago a great one helped me with a big problem and changed my outlook on the issue, too.

Long post, hope I haven't offended you or anyone, as I seemed to in another long response the other day.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Starla said:


> That sounds terribly stressful. It’s so much more stressful when your partner is adding to the stress instead of helping to diffuse. I’m sorry. Next time it’ll have to be better, right?
> 
> I think it’s a good life skill for a dog to be able to be shut in another room, and not necessarily in a crate. When we had 4 dogs and parties for the kids or even just people over, I would put the dogs in a bedroom, at least for the beginning of the party/visit, and sometimes for the whole time. It’s so handy when we have a repairman come into the house to be able to usher a dog into a room and not worry about them. .... Of course she makes herself comfortable on the bed instead of in her crate. (Oona isn’t allowed on beds right? )


It better be better next time! Oona doesn't sleep in the bed with us, but she is allowed on the bed if the door is open when I'm working in the office next door. And I nap with her on the bed sometimes. So our room is an option and she would for sure make herself comfortable (if she can relax). In my office she lays on the futon or on the floor. She actually did great when we had a contractor doing some renovations for most of a week in December and then when our furnace broke she was ok with that too. We'd have her in the crate when they first came in, then I'd bring her out on a leash, and if he was ok with it she would go for a sniff and greet. Then I would bring her to my office where I'd be working anyway.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't know if this is even a good idea, let alone practical, but if you all live close enough, is there any chance that you with Oona and mum (?) with toddler could meet at a neutral location for a couple of short visits, or at each other's homes, walks around neighborhoods. that sort of thing? 

Often advised is short duration exposure to take the pressure off all involved. Young children's movements and vocalizations are very unpredictable and startling until they become familiar. 

The weather here is just starting to consider spring and we'll be heading to our local park with playground to refamiliarize our boys.


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## Footprints&pawmarks (Mar 8, 2021)

Oonapup, I'm so sorry that you had to experience this cascade of discomfort, when all you wanted was a pleasant evening with friends. The evening must have seemed to stretch on forever, with no relief or rescue in sight.

I'm not going to share my "been there" experiences, but believe me, I and most poodle parents, have at one time or another.

So, hugs. This, too, shall pass -- with growth and learning (for all of you) and good professional help.

I do have to say, your description of Oona's meltdown was perfect! "she barked, yelped, whined, panted, growlmoanyodeled and lunged both on leash and in her crate." High fives for inventing the perfect term, "growlmoanyodeled" for that cacophony of noise that somehow comes out of a stressed poodle.

Again, hugs, and a smile.

Be gentle with yourself.


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## X skully X (Nov 21, 2021)

.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

I can 


Sroodle8 said:


> I can relate to the spousal tension. My husband tolerates the dog, but that's about it. He can see how much joy she brings me, but doesn't like the mess or the woofing or the way she wants to play when we are watching TV or how we have to plan our lives around her bladder. I think this is why I put in so much energy training her and why we started doing agility.


I can relate to all of this.


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## WinnieThePoodle (Sep 1, 2020)

This is all so familiar - sigh!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Well I didn't really read the advise posts you already have gotten but I can say it gets manageable. My 4 year old standard was highly excitable as a pup and as he didn't have contact with children it did send him over the edge. I keep in contained to one part of the house when we have guests over. He at first is interested but after they go by several times he now could care less and just goes nd lies down. Recently we had company with small children 3 of them all running about. I kept him contained. The littlest one at 4 said to me I like yr dog behind the fence. I said oh did you see him. He immediately said oh I didn't open the gate but he sat and licked my hand. And I have my rescue adolescent standard and my terrier who were barks and wild. I had him leashed to me but he just couldn't settle, so I just let him be. He has a easy personality so I knew he wasn't a biter dog, anyway he went up to everyone sniffed and then he walked around a bit and went and laid down. I didn't even know he was loose in the house. I was amazed, all it took was telling people to just ignore him and say go lay down. The terrier calmed down too after people were here about 20 minutes. So there is light and you could just put Oona up in one area . If she calms down you can try letting her be free. Seems once they realize all these people aren't a threat to the house and aren't really interested in their antics they give up and go lay down. I'm sure it will work out. Right now we just put my husband on palliative care so I have people coming and going up the wazoo, we are still in the process of learning its ok for all these people coming and going in our normally very quiet household. It will get better.


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## The Popster (Feb 23, 2021)

Sorry to hear this.
Nil Desperandum!!
Oona is 19 months ? About the same as our Poppy.
So this 'problem' can be sorted.
And to be fair I would say it's NOT A PROBLEM !!!
This issue is perfectly natural, part of her development.
Of cousre there is the lack of socialisation factor due to the pandemic, but even so it's not entirely out of the ordinary.

I have a slight issue at the moment, Poppy's 'minder' Banzai the Malinois, well his owners are great friends Poppy is fine with them and has spent a couple of hours across the road with them on her own.
We could have used that option recently, but they have family staying whilst a house is having major building work.
This includes a toddler grandchild.
So I'm rather nervous to put Poppyt 'unattended' with the toddler, who happily barges past Banzai and has not concerns about a big dog.

I think it's the toddler thing that is tricky, for dogs who have no real experience of human puppies.
Even a dog 'born' into a family can struggle with the toddler stage.
Meeting older kids who can perhaps give treats for doing 'tricks' is a more gentle introduction?

I do believe too that you are magnifying this issue through the lens of what's going on with world issues.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

I can empathize with your situation. Decades ago I had a cockapoo who was very reactive to small children – and not in a good way. It was all very stressful and limited who we could have to the house comfortably. It looks like your problem stems from excitement, not aggression. That’s good. I don’t want to oversimplify things, but the answer lays with managed exposure. Small kids give off high level and unpredictable energy. They also make extremely appealing playmates to a young SPOO. As I’ve said before, Happy has been exposed to young children since day one, so she is both familiar and comfortable with them. I know you said this is not currently an option for you, but as the weather improves, try to find some well-behaved kids for Oona to be around. Visiting parents also need to be aware your dog lives there as part of your family and they need to monitor and control their kids. Poodles and kids can, and do, mix well. Good luck...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think both the pandemic and also modern life has put unreasonable expectations on parents. For context, when I was a preschooler my parents never took me to any social event with non-family. I stayed home with a babysitter. Every other parent of their generation did the same thing. Therefore, in the 1950's-1970's your situation wouldn't have occurred, because the toddler would have been home in bed instead of crawling around under foot at a dinner party. Yes, I did go to family gatherings along with cousins. Again, the rules were different. We knew some family dogs were not safe. My grandfather's show dogs were absolutely off limits to the kids, as was my aunt's hunting dog. The dogs got locked away, or the kid got put behind a baby gate. Collective family wrath descended on anyone who let the kids mix it up with the dogs. It was part of respecting the host.

I think you are doing the right thing to work on getting Oona better socialized. I also think you are right, that this gathering had a whole lot of emotional weight unrelated to Oona herself. 

Your husband wants your guests to have a perfect experience. However, you aren't running a restaurant or a B&B. You are a wife, not an employee. You are homeowner and hostess, not cook and bar staff. Your dog gives you emotional comfort, and you are entitled to that comfort. As I said, I think in previous generations there was a bit more understanding that kids don't necessarily belong at a dinner party. A host wasn't expected to kid-proof the house. This was part of respecting the host.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

A couple of clarification points, one about the dog and one about the evening's expectations/my spouse.

Oona is generally a little nervous about strangers and takes time to warm up, though it's possible she is less intimidated by kids because of their size. On the other hand, she is definitely not familiar with them and a little stressed by them, and how they move, act, and sound. In the time we've spent with this baby, other older kid friends, and at the park before we knew better, she has barked, lunged and done distance increasing behaviors like nipping as they walk away, but she has also taken treats, gotten paid for laid on her mat, and done behaviors/tricks for them. She better when kids are not moving too much. It's true that her behavior the other night was mainly excitement, BUT there is a tinge of discomfort/anxiety about unfamiliarity as well as chase/ predatory-ness that makes me nervous. Especially with a young, not very balanced baby who is less than 2 feet tall! If she had not been leashed and held back, she totally would have knocked him over, and then when he cried she likely would have started barking and play lunging (I can't think of whether there is another name for this, it's not just a lunge, but the teasing approach and retreat sometimes with bowing or nipping or barking), or she might have grabbed clothes and tugged. 

As for my husband, it was not so much him expecting me to be the perfect hostess/wife, as frustration that the dog (MY dog) was interfering with our first attempt to be normal with friends we used to see a lot before the pandemic. He does 90% of the cooking in our household (including this meal). We have always enjoyed socializing with our friends' kids and babies (we have a 10 year old ourselves who has always been welcomed by these friends and others). We invited our friends over knowing they would be bringing their toddler - it was a last minute invite and we thought based on recent experience that Oona could tolerate it. The fact is that we have a dog now, one more thing that complicates a re-entry to "normalcy". We will just have to adjust based on Oona now, too.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ya know, reading cowpony's most recent post tickled a lot of memories for me. I my parents wanted to go do something social at another home or to go to a movie, we stayed with a baby sitter and if my parents were the hosts we were expected to maintain routines for ourselves once old enough (or were already in bed by the time things got going. If we were old enough to have a nice family dinner at a restaurant we were expected to sit at our table politely and to engage the occasion. I can't tell you how many family celebrations with my nieces and younger cousins were less than fun because of the children. My older niece was super easy and you could expect to have a cocktail, appetizer and coffee plus dessert courses at leisure, but her younger sister and one cousin just never could stay in their seats. Their mothers had to bring baggage with books, crayons... to keep them quiet. One cousin must have gotten up at least ten times to follow our server around (thankfully it was the end of lunch and she had no other tables to attend to). There are a lot of things to balance and maybe the old days weren't too bad in terms of adults having a part of the world that was free of small people and excited dogs.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I think we expect a _lot_ from dogs. I remember getting bitten on the foot (by a poodle!!) when I was a toddler in the 80s, and I don’t think anyone batted an eye. 

A (very) short positive visit would probably have been better for Oona, especially given her behaviour with kids thus far. But I understand it can be hard to get less dog savvy folks onboard with incremental socialization and training. And without everyone in agreement and equally committed, pretty normal doggy issues can become much harder to manage. I’m sorry. I’ve been there, for sure.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I was the kid at family events who preferred sneak away to cuddle with my relatives’ shelties who were hidden away from the bustle of activity in a room at the back of the house (this was fine with the relatives; the dogs were great with kids but probably just didn’t need the stress of the party). I have great memories of that quiet time together.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I might have a different opinion than most, but I think visiting children should be able to play and walk freely in the house without risking to fall down from a dog jumping on them or licking them.

I would have had no patience with this and put the dog in a covered crate, in a separate room. As far as possible so she is not heard. That would have been my solution for this specific evening.

Then of course you do whatever it takes to bring her up to par with kids. But that’s a long term project.


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## Lilli_123 (Aug 31, 2021)

I agree with Dechi that it should be possible for you to have children over if you want to.

I don't know about the definition of reactivity, but it sounds like she was neither afraid nor aggressive. Instead it sounds like your dog is being very excited and pushy and you not being able to set boundaries (e.g. leaving kids and visitors alone). I find this very difficult myself. I have had a trainer come to my house a few days ago and I thought some of the things he told me might be interesting to you as well. Here are some things he told me:

stop looking at the dog; he literally repeated this about 20 times during his visit, inside and outside the house. I hadn't noticed before but I tend to constantly watch what he is doing / check on him. In the dog's mind this looks like I am looking to him for what to do instead of the other way around. While he is doing nothing wrong your attention does not need to be on him at all but you can focus on what you are doing. Not looking relaxed, panting, barking etc. is not doing something wrong (= does not need you interference) and therefore your attention can be on dinner.
relax; he said the dog notices your attitude/energy/stress level. If you are tense or nervous the dog will not be relaxed. You weren't able to relax during dinner so your dog couldn't either. She is looking to you to make sense of the situation, if you project calmness she will be able to calm down as well.
set boundaries; clearly tell the dog when he does something wrong. Noone had really showed me how to do this before. I think this is diffcult to explain and you probably need someone to show you if you don't know already. No without consequence is meaningless to the dog. Correction should be done without any emotion, very quick and going back to neutral immediately afterwards (he said like an impulse, I don't know if this makes sense in English).

I assume the last point might be controvesial, but the first two might be applicable no matter where you stand on corrections.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Count me among the many owners who didn't understand how slightly novel situations to me could be extremely stressful for my dog. You've gotten good advice on how to protect your dog's peace of mind through training, socialization, and physical barriers. I also agree with others that the false dichotomy of "between the dog or guests, I choose guests" belies deeper feelings that should be addressed head on.


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## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

As a young mama with no parents around to help, I can appreciate that babysitters, for some families, are a privilege. Further, gathering together communally can be so healing and enjoyable. In a culture (at least here in the West) where it's so individualistic, families getting together is pretty special. I can't say I wax too nostalgic about the past because it's apples and oranges and quite frankly, I can unearth some ugly trauma just as easily as the rose coloured memories of the things done "right" 

I just wanted to say that you've my empathy. I'm sure that with some time and space, the intensity of your feelings and perceptions have cooled as well.

I am in a similar boat with you re: partner.
I can also imagine that Bennie will need to work up to being around kids that age as well... when I ever invite people in again 😂 We have to stand waaaaaaaaaay back at the bus stop, so I know I'm in for a ride there.

We'll have our friendships and our dinners and our dogs, too. Will just take some ingenuity and perspective checking and patience.

And in nicer weather, I do like to imagine making a little drive to go for a walk with you and your girl? I'll bet Oona and Bennie get on like fast friends.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

BennieJets said:


> As a young mama with no parents around to help, I can appreciate that babysitters, for some families, are a privilege. Further, gathering together communally can be so healing and enjoyable. In a culture (at least here in the West) where it's so individualistic, families getting together is pretty special. I can't say I wax too nostalgic about the past because it's apples and oranges and quite frankly, I can unearth some ugly trauma just as easily as the rose coloured memories of the things done "right"
> 
> I just wanted to say that you've my empathy. I'm sure that with some time and space, the intensity of your feelings and perceptions have cooled as well.
> 
> ...


My daughter is 10, and between moving here and having few connections, and then the pandemic, we have hired a babysitter literally 1 (1) time, in Feb 2020. Parents have babysat for us when they've been visiting, but other than that, it's just not something we've managed to sort out. 
I'd love to go walk together in the spring (or spring-like weather)!


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Dechi said:


> I might have a different opinion than most, but I think visiting children should be able to play and walk freely in the house without risking to fall down from a dog jumping on them or licking them.
> 
> I would have had no patience with this and put the dog in a covered crate, in a separate room. As far as possible so she is not heard. That would have been my solution for this specific evening.
> 
> Then of course you do whatever it takes to bring her up to par with kids. But that’s a long term project.


I tend to agree on visiting children and I wish I had just excused us and brought her upstairs. Like I said, my daughter has always been welcome at these friends' homes. It's tougher to coordinate now that they have a baby with an early bedtime; we will probably just leave Oona and go to their place next time.

We have one crate, and it lives in the only space it fits in, which is our living/dining room where all the action tends to be. It's been fine for the last few years when we have had almost no visitors. Covering it where it is an option, but that would probably still be too exciting in the short term. I've also started working on leaving Oona in our bedroom.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Liz said:


> Count me among the many owners who didn't understand how slightly novel situations to me could be extremely stressful for my dog.


Right? I thought that she would be ok; we had hung out on their back deck with the baby playing off to the side in the fall, and Oona was interested but mostly able to stay in a down stay with her bully stick while we chatted. 2 changes, location and the baby himself - it was in our house, and he was more mobile, and noisier.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

I just wanted to say it will be okay. Don't ask me for specifics because I don't have any but it will be okay.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

I can relate to all that you described and have found myself daunted and overwhelmed at times. It was actually really wonderful for me to read your post and know that I am not alone in not having the perfectly behaved poodle. Hugo (now 13 months old) also has developed stranger/friend barking syndrome as a result of having so little contact with other humans at our home because of the pandemic. We have a LOT of training to do around this and some other issues. Hugs from me to you---I'm cheering you on and feeling motivated to try some of the suggestions here.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Oonapup said:


> 2 changes, location and the baby himself - it was in our house, and he was more mobile, and noisier.


I think this is an excellent insight, as both are _huge_ differences to a dog. There's already a lot of good advice in this thread, and you've identified the two conditions you need to train Oona on. I hope your husband can come around to supporting your training, especially because there are wonderful built in opportunities to host more often (even if shorter duration).


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

a2girl said:


> I can relate to all that you described and have found myself daunted and overwhelmed at times. It was actually really wonderful for me to read your post and know that I am not alone in not having the perfectly behaved poodle. Hugo (now 13 months old) also has developed stranger/friend barking syndrome as a result of having so little contact with other humans at our home because of the pandemic. We have a LOT of training to do around this and some other issues. Hugs from me to you---I'm cheering you on and feeling motivated to try some of the suggestions here.


Hugs and solidarity!


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## beowoof (Dec 6, 2021)

awh, it sounds like you've had a really stressful scenario and are taking the steps to make sure everyone in your family unit (Oona included) can feel comfortable at home. i can empathize with the sinking feeling of responsibility and dread that you are somehow responsible for the emotional and physical responses to each and every scenario your poodle is in. the standards for raising a nice dog, even from 10 years ago have changed dramatically and with that comes an inordinate amount of stress. given the change in "normal" over the last two years, it's impossible to be prepared for EVERY scenario even without pandemic conditions. Oona is loved, she is a member of your family, and the fact that you're looking for commiseration tells me you're a proactive person who is doing their best. asking Oona to accept spontaneous change that is new, loud, exciting and novel is a big ask, but she too will mature with enough time and exposure, and you will as well. 

as a child, my parents had a basic rule with kidlets and our childhood shih-tzu: if the room was too rambunctious and/or there was too much commotion our dog was gated in the laundry room with a baby gate. the end. he'd occasionally bark or whine, but generally there was an understanding that he was there because our guests didn't really know how to interact with a dog appropriately. they'd shrug and roll their eyes if someone complained, reminding them gently that he too is an animal with thoughts and feelings of his own. with Kirby, i've experimented with various ex-pens, his crate and tethering him to me when it's all been "a bit too much" for the guy. it's not a perfect solution but from reading through the thread i suspect there is a touch of perfectionism and worry that Oona will not fit into post-pandemic life. she will continue to grow to fit your life, as you have grown to include her. you've got this.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Liz said:


> I think this is an excellent insight, as both are _huge_ differences to a dog. There's already a lot of good advice in this thread, and you've identified the two conditions you need to train Oona on. I hope your husband can come around to supporting your training, especially because there are wonderful built in opportunities to host more often (even if shorter duration).


So you want to know something even more interesting I realized? When we go and visit my in-laws, their 7 year old Golden is uninterested in playing with Oona and is intimidated by her brashness. At this stage, we cannot have them off leash outside together, because his free movement is too exciting for Oona and he just stands there while she harasses and jumps on him, with him looking to us for help. Indoors, she basically leaves him alone or is at least able to inhibit when we ask her to chill out. So we let him out (he can go out alone while she can't) and take her for off leash walks on the property without him.

Out in the world, she has a hard time when stranger kids run/skate/scoot/bike near by, but if they are relatively still or far away she is able to ignore them at least part of the time - even this baby when we were in their yard. In the house, she was not able to inhibit or ignore at all.

And I think this difference is because - outside, she is not expected to interact with kids other than her own (though her behavior with her kid off leash and even on leash still leaves something to be desired). But she does get to play with dogs, so she sees outside as a "dog play zone", and that could be why she has so much trouble inhibiting her drive to play with the golden outdoors. Indoors, she is allowed to play with humans, a lot. Including her kid. She has earned freer rein to be where she wants to be and do what she likes, including hassling us with toys and following us around. She sees our house as "Oona free/human play zone". We do of course do training inside as well, but it's still interesting to compare how she generally relates to these different spaces and the species that she encounters in them.


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## Rian (Sep 17, 2021)

I’m so sorry about the difficult night. We certainly are living in some stressful times. Just wanted to say you’re not alone and send virtual hugs! ❤


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## ivy1 (12 mo ago)

So sorry things did not go as planned. My daughter in law can not stand to be licked. So dogs see this as a challenge. Sometimes we put a dog in a room with a baby gate. We have put our toy in a large dog stroller too; and kept him with all if us.


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Covid certainly has changed alot. Our tpoo Luca was planned long before covid. He was picked up just as the first lockdown started. We had done all we could, in regards to socialising but in reality, lockdowns, three deaths in my family in a short span just took our attention. Three months ago, we realised that Luca wished all the hell away. When things opened up and we had visitors over, he liked some and hated others. Those he liked, were accepted in the flat, if they sat down and stayed put. Those he hated, he barked incessantly till they left. That's not doable. So now we have a personal trainer. The last two months we have trained daily. Friends, neighbours, the postman, a painter and anyone else we meet daily have helped. I've stopped being embarrassed, when I hear someone on the stairway I pop out and ask if they would be so kind as to help a moment. Only one has said no. So I have involved every stranger possible. Ringing on the doorbell, coming in, chatting etc and most importantly ignoring him, while one of us from the family gives Luca his favourite ball. It has been hard work but a game changer. He even volunteers and greets people during walks.
What I really am trying to say, is that when all hope seems lost, then it is possible to turn things around if everyone is on board and you work consistently. We found out that treats are not a treat for Luca. His ball is. You need to find the highest value and use that as the reward.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Progress Update: 

We've been practicing observing kids at a distance at the park and she's done really well with her down stay, with only one bark/lunge after a stimulating interaction with a friend of my daughter's. 
Today, one half of our friend couple and their toddler came over again, and we took it slow with way lower expectations for Oona. I sat on the stairs with Oona on one side of a baby gate so she was corralled at the bottom landing of the stairs, and I dropped kibble while Wally (the toddler) chattered and yodeled as he came into the house. He was really interested in her and she did give one or two barks when he was very close and loud, but was otherwise able to eat and stay relaxed-ish, panting and watching but not overly tense. After the barks we tried to have her stay in our bedroom with a bully stick, but she was unhappy to be alone while she could hear action going on, so I let her out after a quiet period. And then she chose to eat her bully stick on the upper landing, where she could hear but not see us - this is pretty big as she has been very drawn to watching the toddler's every move. She then came down to her mat by the gate and I dropped kibble when Wally came over, this time she was able to stay in a down the whole time and no barking. We ended on a good note and I brought her upstairs to my room where she has finally relaxed with me on the bed in spite of being able to hear the toddler sounds downstairs.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Well done to both of you,


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Sounds like progress! Keep up the good work!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Fantastic progress. So happy for you all


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

What a pleasing update. Well done all.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Very nice update. Mats are magical, aren't they? I absolutely loved hearing about the baby gate separating the dog from the toddler. Yes! When it comes to kids and dogs, there's not much a toddler is going to add to your dog's life that will improve it. Keeping tiny kids on you can look, but not interact status, is incredibly helpful. You're on the right track and headed in the right direction. Fantastic!


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Nice progress update II: My husband invited our same friends over for a belated birthday brunch (for me) today, and because of the season and weather we had the luxury of being able to be outside this time, which also gave us the ability to keep Oona in the house as needed. I had made a plan to take Oona for an off leash ramble with a poodle friend earlier in the morning which had the effect of draining some of her energy before guests came over. It turned out that the toddler needed a nap shortly after they got here, so they were able to put him down in his pack and play in our basement den, and Oona was pleased to be allowed out of her living room isolation to come hang out with us on and off tether in the yard, even laying down to sleep at one point, which she has never done outside. When the toddler woke up, I leashed Oona and rewarded her for staying with me and for staying calm. She was able to approach him without lunging and to give a few licks. I dropped kibble and cheese near him on the ground and she was able to happily get them; she even graduated to gently taking some kibble from him and laying nearby without any dramatic arousal behavior. We then walked/strollered together to our local park where Oona showed off her "lay down by Mom while kids play over there" skills. She was like a different dog. We didn't try to interact inside, and the toddler didn't move around too much near Oona during these interactions, but it was the perfect next step and I am feeling hopeful that we will be in the clear for less stressful but reasonably managed indoor social activity before the small child is in pre-K.

ETA to specify it was my birthday brunch; so extra special to have Oona be so well-behaved 😍


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I am thrilled for you and Oona.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Wonderful!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Happy belated Birthday!


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Great news!


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## BennieJets (Oct 10, 2021)

I absolutely understand how thrilling this all is. Happy for all of you! And happy birthday!!!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Happy belated birthday and what a great gift for you and Oona


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Wonderful progress, and a lovely birthday present to you from Oona.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

This made me smile. Well done!


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Successful in house visit when my daughter (11) had a play date with a friend (10). Oona was excited but pretty polite. This is a kid she has met many times but never indoors, and in the past she has barked and lunged at him and his younger brother in our yards during pandemic socializing when they were running and yelling (that’s the trigger for her). I thought after her recent experiences with a younger toddler as well as with new adults indoors, she would probably be fine. And she was. She was friendly and curious but not too much. She felt left out when they went downstairs to play board games without her and let me know about it with a lot of staring and harrumphing. And we even took a fairly successful walk. Her leash manners were challenged, and partway through I put on her halter for more control, but it reminded me of when she used to get overaroused walking with my daughter in puppyhood and early adolescence (and let’s be honest, I expect the jumpy naughty shenanigans to re-emerge when the irresistible mittens enter the picture again in a few months). She did not succeed in jumping on our friend and by the end they were walking next to one another relaxed and Oona just leashed to her collar. I suspect his younger sibling (who is more of a tornado of movement and sound) will be more difficult for her to handle. But it looks like my daughter will be able to have friends over, which is a huge relief and major progress. And I expect that in time both Oona and the other kids in our lives will mature a bit more, and we will be able to socialize safely without too much drama. I’m really proud of my girl and our hard work.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Wonderful news! Hooray!


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

Love it when patience and training pays off. Well done you.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Way to go Oona!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I love it when a plan comes together! Great job team Oona!


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## Minie (Oct 4, 2021)

Well done Oona! Lucky your human had an excellent plan.


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## PowersPup (Aug 28, 2020)

That's wonderful! Great work!!


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Another Oona and kids update, this time with an interesting twist involving social facilitation by two border-collie/poodle cross puppies. Oona came with us to a family members' yesterday. They have two 5 month old puppies and two rambunctious kids. Oona has often shown nervous behavior, fixation and chasey-barky stuff around strange kids, even ones who are confident and dog savvy, though she does much better with confident kids than nervous ones who run, freeze or stare. 
We'd just left my in-laws' place where my young nephew was visiting who was scared of Oona, and because of this and her nervous energy and obsessive curiousity we kept them separated or her leashed. This time at the cousins', though, she first played (super nicely for being twice their size) in the yard with the pups and then we headed inside; she was more relaxed than I've ever seen her around these kids, basically treated them like her own kid or like background noise. She explored their house for toys and chews, did tricks for the kids, let them pet her, and let me cuddle the puppies without complaint. I've seen this before at parks and stuff - if there are dogs there to vouch for their humans she's a lot more comfortable with strangers. But this was the most dramatic difference in her behavior around strange kids I've ever seen from one context to another. Very interesting. Talk about interspecies facilitation!

She far exceeded my expectations in that situation. I didn't think we were at a point where I could let her just wander around unleashed and be a dog inside a house with kids she's only met once more than a year ago. I didn't even have to closely supervise or vigilantly monitor her attention to the kids' movements. I really think the combination of confident kids and social young conspecifics to vouch for them made all the difference. At my in-laws,' their golden retriever avoids interacting with Oona, so I don't think she gets much feedback from him about how to interact with the other beings in the space. In spite of the nephew liking the golden and the golden liking every human, Oona still fixated on the nephew and watched his every move, and generally had too intense energy to let her be free because she would go and get in his space and lick him or bark, feeding off of his discomfort. Of course, she was also being treated weirdly in that situation by having to be separated in the basement or leashed when on the same floor, so some tension certainly got conferred to her. But I have literally never seen such a dramatic difference in two otherwise similar contexts. I do hope that the positive, relaxed interaction will help her eventually generalize. Maybe we need more friends with children and dog-social dogs.


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

So happy that your hard work is paying off. Nice job Oona!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a good, encouraging experience! She sounds like such a sensitive girl. Very similar to Peggy. It’s so hard to see the world through their eyes (and ears and nose).


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> What a good, encouraging experience! She sounds like such a sensitive girl. Very similar to Peggy. It’s so hard to see the world through their eyes (and ears and nose).


She is. It helps to remember that while I can't control the tension she encounters from other people, I can do my best to relax myself as much as I can. On tonight's walk (first long evening walk since coming home), every time we encountered something or she alerted to something or someone, I tried to consciously make the leash loose and exhale and give her a beat before asking her for anything.


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## Happy'sDad (Jul 4, 2020)

Wonderful news. Seems like the barriers keeping Oona from accompanying you everywhere are quickly vanishing. You mention the tension of others. I don't think the value of your energy can be overstated. You remaining calm and positive definitely helps Oona through those situations.


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