# UC Davis Raw Food Study Something to Chew On...



## CharismaticMillie

Sometimes I wonder what kind of nutritional deficiencies would show up if my own personal diet were computer analyzed!


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## liljaker

I think that home cooking for your pet to achieve optimal nutrition may be difficult, but there also is good credible information to assist someone really serious about doing so. I have always believed that as long as you feed a high quality base food (kibble or raw) and prepare home cooked food occasionally, it evens out over time. I have always found the idea of homecooking for my dogs daunting and have opted for the tried and true premade (kibble and raw). Interesting article. There are so many differing opinions on nutrition, holistic treatments, training, etc., so I think it is good to keep an open mind and consider everything before you decide. Thanks for posting.


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## fjm

I think the clue lies in the fact that this was an analysis of individual recipes. I doubt there are many human recipes that would constitute a balanced diet if eaten to the exclusion of all else, and few writers of human recipe books are qualified nutritionists.


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## Chagall's mom

An interesting view on the UC Davis study.

Behind the Study
Clearly, the UC Davis study is not in favor of home prepared pet foods and encourages pet food consumers that choose homemade food to “consult with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist.” But let’s look at why…

Why is it ‘extremely difficult for pet owners and veterinarians’ to come up with balanced home prepared diets for pets?

Quick question…how many grams of protein should a thirty pound adult dog consume daily as recommended by AAFCO or NRC? How many milligrams of Choline is recommended for a thirty pound adult dog? Do you know? Do you know how to find this information?

The reason it is so difficult for pet owners and veterinarians to properly provide pets with home-prepared foods that provide all the needed nutrition is the nutrient requirements of pets is not readily available to pet owners. It’s very difficult to learn exactly what nutrients our pets need and in what proportions.

The Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) publishes a yearly update to pet food nutrient requirements (along with ingredient definitions and proposed pet food regulations)…but the book will cost you $90.00 (based on 2013 price) to read. And it is challenging for the average pet food consumer to interpret; example: mg/kg, ME/kg DM, energy density greater than 4000 kcal ME/kg DM, and so on.

With human foods, human diet – the U.S. government has offered (for decades) tons of free information to learn how to balance our diet. Remember the food pyramid? There are many government programs such as ChooseMyPlate.gov and FruitsandVeggiesMoreMatters.org that teach human food consumers to balance the diet through eating a variety of healthy food (not through supplements). Pet food consumers are not provided with similar information.

Human food labels provide detailed and actual nutrient information providing the human food consumer with a way to monitor all the nutrition they are consuming. Pet food labels provide very minimal nutrient information and it is not required to be actual (protein/fat listed as a minimum amount, fiber/moisture listed as a maximum amount), providing the pet food consumer with very little information to monitor any nutrients their pet is consuming.

How can a pet owner learn to properly feed their pet when there are so many obstacles in the way? (Feels almost like AAFCO and FDA doesn’t want us to know exactly what to feed our pets doesn’t it?)....

If the UC Davis study proves anything – it’s that changes need to occur. I hope the veterinarians at UC Davis see the bigger picture and I hope to see them at the next AAFCO meeting advocating for that change.


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## Ciscley

I wish they would list the recipe sources of the 4 to 9 that passed so we can find the publications and purchase the recipes.

While I believe RMB is probably the best diet for my future dog (can't say that for my very delicate rescue Spoo), as a vegan myself (health not moral reasons), I'm just not comfortable handling raw meat products to the extent my research shows I would need to. Giving my dog or myself salmonella, ecoli, etc, is just not something I'm comfortable risking at this point.

So we're trying to find recipes for cooked meals that are a stepping stone between kibble and RMB (I want to get to RMB, I'm just fighting my germaphobe tendencies) and like this study shows, it's a damn hard thing to find good guidance on. Way too easy to not meet nutritional needs, especially with a growing puppy. 

*sigh* time to think up a new RMB search string. Keep hoping I'll find a blog by an OCD vegan who is feeding her large breed puppy RMB.


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## fjm

I like DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend - well researched, non judgmental, and comprehensive. Although I'm not sure it has advice specifically for a raw feeding, germaphobic vegan ... I think the answer may be to get a carnivorous neighbour to feed the dog in their yard!


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## brownlikewoah

Bleh. Food is food, there is no such thing as dog food. The individual meals are not intended to be balanced, it is balanced over time, just like with our own meals. I hope this article doesn't discourage people from giving their pets real unprocessed food. 


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## Chagall's mom

brownlikewoah said:


> * I hope this article doesn't discourage people from giving their pets real unprocessed food.*


A valid concern, I think.


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## cavon

HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals

I make Finnegan's food follwoing the methodology in the link above. In Canada, you have to have your vet order the supplement, but for US residents, you can order it directly online.

I have been feeding Finnegan this way for two years, after he developed sensitivity to chicken and he has never had an issue since I made the switch. When we travel for shows, I feed him Orijen regional red kibble.

I have had wellness blood work done on him periodically and every single level comes back right down the middle of the acceptable range. 

I will always cook using this methodology for him and any other dogs that i have. I am considering cooking for my three cats as well.


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## Tiny Poodles

fjm said:


> I think the clue lies in the fact that this was an analysis of individual recipes. I doubt there are many human recipes that would constitute a balanced diet if eaten to the exclusion of all else, and few writers of human recipe books are qualified nutritionists.


Exactly - I am a firm believer that dogs should never be fed the same thing, twice a day, 365 days a year. Not only is it foolish to believe that any one food can meet all of the nutritional requirements of every dog on the planet, but keeping them on only one food also sets them up for allergies, and gastric issues.


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## ItzaClip

thats why i think diets should be supplemented with products like "omega alpha Nutrify" which is meant to up the nutrient level of any diet(been good for those dogs who "wont eat anything but kibbles bits" and it at least makes sure they are not malnurished.


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## CharismaticMillie

I agree with rotational feeding as well. Though I do think its important to point out that if a dog is programmed to become hypersensitive to foods, it will happen regardless if whether you feed one food or rotate. An allergy will develop to whatever the dog is eating at that time. While I do believe in feeding a variety of foods, it is important to keep some proteins that have never been fed on reserve should food hypersensitivity ever develop.


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## ItzaClip

Here is ingredients. Neat dosage cause the higher quality foods you typically feed less of and cheap food more of so it is fed by amount of food. 1 scoop per pound of food basically. Daily.


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## Ciscley

cavon said:


> HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals





fjm said:


> I like DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend - well researched, non judgmental, and comprehensive.


Thanks again for these links. The Hilary site reiterated everything I feel about why I want to feed cooked meat vs. raw. And the DogAware site gave me two super easy solutions to the calcium dilemma I kept coming up against: Canned Fish w/ Bones (like pink salmon, jack mackerel and even sardines) and pressure cooking other meat bones (like pork & chicken) which apparently makes them edible (since, duh, that's what happens with the fish canning.) 

Seriously, I swear I've been googling this stuff off and on for two months now and all I was finding were things like cooking barley vs oatmeal vs rice (which is so not the point in going to home made for me) and different recipe books to buy (which given the OP are confirmed as a waste of $$ since no more complete than I can make up on my own.)

Mucho, mucho gracias.


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## Quossum

I like this guy's recipes:

Raw Feeding Recipes

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie

Huh. Yeah, I personally disagree with the opinion on Hilary's Blend website. Can't take a lot of the arguments very seriously. But, regardless, IMO home cooking is as commendable as raw and definitely has its benefits!


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## PoodlePowerBC

This is what I use to supplement Russell's raw diet. Wouldn't this be close to Hilary's blend?
GreenMin for Dogs Dr. Dobias Healing Solutions


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## JudyD

I wonder who, besides the Center for Companion Animal Health, "supported" this study. Does "supported" mean financed? Was there some other source of financial support? I've wondered, too, how the nutritional requirements for dogs were determined. Does anyone know? I know there's a national organization that sets those out. I'm wondering about the actual process.


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## Chagall's mom

JudyD said:


> I wonder who, besides the Center for Companion Animal Health, "supported" this study. Does "supported" mean financed? Was there some other source of financial support? I've wondered, too, how the nutritional requirements for dogs were determined. Does anyone know? I know there's a national organization that sets those out. I'm wondering about the actual process.


*JudyD*: Good questions! I wonder if the media contacts provided for the study would be willing to answer them?

Jennifer Larsen, School of Veterinary Medicine, (530) 752-4738, [email protected] (Larsen also reachable at the UC Davis Vet. Med. Teaching Hospital at (530) 752-1393)
Andy Fell, UC Davis News Service, (530) 752-4533, [email protected]


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## Sweetp

After reading that article the first question I pondered was who funded this research? I do know that a number of big name pet food companies sponsor, and often teach courses on nutrition at veterinary schools. 
Pet nutrition is not a priority at these schools and we can see that by going into our vets office and noticing what's on their shelves!

My vet is against a raw fed diet and that is probably due to the influence and teaching of pet food manufacturers. All that to say although I trust my vets expertise in diagnosing and treating my animal's illnesses, I still prefer to take charge of their nutritional needs myself.


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## kontiki

Ciscley said:


> I wish they would list the recipe sources of the 4 to 9 that passed so we can find the publications and purchase the recipes.


Yes, why bother to have the study if they aren't going to give us links to the ones that tested so well. Does anyone know them?


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## faerie

I raw feed my dogs. I believe it to be superior diet to kibble ans even cooked. 

Initially I researched cooking for my dogs. That lasted about three weeks. I went raw then and haven't looked back. 

From the vegan poster here ... I get your aversion, but seriously move beyond it. Practicing good hygiene will keep you from getting salmonella. If it grosses you out, wear gloves (food grade) and wash everything up with hot soapy water followed by a light spritzing of bleach water. 

I have a friend who owns a high quality pet store who is very knowledgable another pet nutrition and only sells high quality feeds ... kibble, canned and raw. She's a huge raw food advocate. She feeds her guys raw. A few weeks ago she posted a picture of herself breaking down a 40 pound box of chicken necks. She was a bit grossed out, but did it for her dogs. She's been a vegetarian since age 7

I have a good friend. She's vegan. Very much so. She raw feeds her dogs. It's saved her dogs life. 

Read here. I wrote about it. 
Allergic dog? Not anymore since on Raw~ Meet Lucy! | Blog of the Fae

It's messy and a bit gross, I get it, but it's best for the dogs. I hope you can get there.


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## kontiki

faerie said:


> I raw feed my dogs. I believe it to be superior diet to kibble ans even cooked.
> 
> Initially I researched cooking for my dogs. That lasted about three weeks. I went raw then and haven't looked back.
> 
> I have a good friend. She's vegan. Very much so. She raw feeds her dogs. It's saved her dogs life.


Yes I agree - raw feeding saved my spoos life also


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## Chagall's mom

kontiki said:


> Yes, why bother to have the study if they aren't going to give us links to the ones that tested so well. Does anyone know them?


I will see if I can borrow my vet's copy of the AVMA Journal in which the study was published when I take Chagall for his annual wellness visit next month. BTW, the headline on the thread should have been "UC Davis *Homemade *Food Study Something to Chew On..." I inadvertently typed "Raw." In case anyone else has access to the AVMA Journal, this is the issue to grab. 

Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association

timely topics in nutrition
Evaluation of recipes of home-prepared maintenance diets for dogs

Despite the availability of complete and balanced commercial maintenance diets for dogs, many owners choose to prepare their pets' diets at home. Many recipes for home-prepared maintenance diets are available, but the nutritional adequacy of these diets has often not been evaluated.

See page 1500


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## Spoo klaus

I went raw for almost 3 months ago . I decided to to so because my silver spoo had severe allergi issues , constant ear infections ,brown paws, brown around the mouth and eyes , and I mean rusty brown . 2 months after raw feeding he is back to his beautiful silver color and the annoying ear infections are gone ! My Klaus is 10 years old and I have wasted many years of his life on useless kibble that made him feel unwell ! No wonder he hated to eat his meals before ......but now he is drooling while prepare his and my other dog's meal ,: take the meat out from fridge put it their cloth on the floor and let them chew ! 


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## Sweetp

Interesting to note that the guidelines for pet nutrition is established by AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials). 

Who they are: What Is AAFCO? | Dogs Naturally Magazine


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## kontiki

Sweetp said:


> Interesting to note that the guidelines for pet nutrition is established by AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials).
> 
> Who they are: What Is AAFCO? | Dogs Naturally Magazine


A quote from that link: 
"The nutrient profiles were originally based on minimum nu- trient requirements established by the National Research Council Committee on Animal Nutrition (NRC) in 1991. In
1995, AAFCO changed these standards to incorporate ‘new scientific information’ completed by the pet food manufacturers. One such change was to lower the minimum protein content from 22% to 18% which is noteworthy as protein is the most expensive ingredient on the dog food label.

The source of food nutrients is not regulated by AAFCO. Protein can be derived from meat or from shoes, from hu- man-grade chickens, or road kill. As long as it is protein, it meets AAFCO nutritional standards. Bioavailability and digestibility of nutrients are not a consideration for AAFCO."

Aarrghhh! Shoes?


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## fjm

I was struck many years ago when pet food manufacturers highlighted the importance of taurine in a cat's diet as an example of why we should only feed their expertly concocted foods. Lack of taurine only became an issue for most cats when they were fed on corn based kibbles developed, of course, by pet food manufacturers, who learned the hard way that low meat, highly processed foods needed it to be added as a supplement... Rates of urinary problems also shot up in cats fed on the original kibbles. 

I think it is undoubtedly true that many recipe books for dogs are full of recipes of very dubious nutritional value - most have been shown to be inadequate even in such basics as balancing phosphorus and calcium, and I have seen recipes that use onions, large quantities of garlic, sugar, salt, and other ingredients that are at best unnecessary and at worst downright harmful. But it is not difficult to follow the basic principles of highly available protein (meat, eggs, fish, not too much dairy), trace minerals and vitamins (mainly supplied by including offal and a mix of proteins, with some green stuff and some orange stuff), and ensuring sufficient calcium (bones, eggshell or a suitable supplement). I am always a bit wary of supplements myself - a diet based on a variety of fresh foods should supply everything that's needed, and overdosing can often be more dangerous than a slight under provision. I have now tested my dogs' diet for far longer than is required for a commercial diet, and so far it seems to be holding up pretty well!


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## JudyD

Well said, fjm! My two dogs don't constitute the eight required for a "trial," but if they're still alive in six months and haven't lost more than 15% of their body weight, I suppose I can stop holding my breath and rest assured that the raw diet I'm feeding them is nutritionally adequate. :biggrin1:


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## Poodle Lover

Ditto!!! Whenever a study comes out, I always wonder who financed it!!! I take every study with a grain of salt.


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## Poodle Lover

Double post


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## Ciscley

*What am I missing? Why is raw better than the same meat just cooked?*

Said vegan poster would welcome more feedback. Most responses I've seen elsewhere about RMB or BARF say it's cheaper and easier than feeding a quality kibble and all agree it's healthier. But why is it better than feeding the same ingredients just cooked at home?

Is raw meat superior to cooked meat nutritionally? Is it easier to digest? 

My personal concerns aren't, ewww, Raw Meat is GROSS and blood ruins my manicure, but raw meat has to be handled safely when packaging, maintained at proper temperature when stored, handled safely when thawing and feeding, and even then could still make my dog or myself sick. 



> Practicing good hygiene will keep you from getting salmonella. If it grosses you out, wear gloves (food grade) and wash everything up with hot soapy water followed by a light spritzing of bleach water.


Can someone share with me how they clean up after their dog's meals so I can visualize this process better? I assume I'm not bleach watering my dog's muzzle, but do you soapy water wash their mouth and paws after every raw meal? What about the contamination in your yard from the shed pathogens in the dog waste? Even if I wear gloves while I police my yard and take my shoes off at the door, won't the dog track the pathogens back in the house on their feet?



> It's messy and a bit gross, I get it, but it's best for the dogs. I hope you can get there.


I get that quality, fresh, minimally processed meat and vegetables are better for a dog than commercially processed animal byproducts and filler grains, but I don't see the clear indication that raw is better than cooked. 

My issue with cooking originally was how to maintain the balance needed without supplementation, especially in regards to a growing puppy and calcium, since I can't feed my dogs cooked bones. But pressure cooking a whole chicken or beef ribs, etc, will apparently make the bones soft enough to grind with the meat and requires a single appliance to be in contact with the raw meat vs my counters, knives, cutting boards, etc. :questionmark:


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## fjm

I am not too fussed by raw meat - I have survived to 60 with quite a lot of it around, and my dogs get into far worse stuff out on walks... I feed mine on a large lightweight throw that goes through the washing machine, and don't fuss too much about washing the dogs. A clean face doesn't get too messy, ears and paws can be covered if they are eating large bones and it worries you, and small pieces of meat barely touch the sides of the mouth before they are gone! Dog saliva is mildly antiseptic, and they generally keep themselves pretty clean.

There are millions and millions of pathogens out there - unless you are immuno-compromised, your immune system has developed to keep you safe from them. In fact, your immune system needs the challenge when you are young to grow strong and protect you! There is a reason why we don't eat food that has fallen on the ground without washing it - we know that floors are probably not very clean places. You actually have to ingest quite a hefty dose of salmonella or e-coli for it to overwhelm your body's natural defences.

The argument for feeding raw rather than cooked seems to revolve around enzymes, probiotics and vitamins that can be destroyed by cooking. But light cooking - pasteurising - will see off most of the nasties while preserving most of the goodies, and cooked real food is definitely better than highly processed kibble, so I would say that if you find the idea of feeding raw disturbing, work out a balanced cooked diet and feed that. Pressure cooking will work, although you will need to go through the results very carefully to ensure here are no hard bones remaining.

There are alternatives to bone - bone meal is recommended for puppies because of their need for high phosphorus as well (DogAware.com Articles: Homemade Cooked Diets for Dogs), but I added ground eggshell to bone-free minced meat from the butcher for my adult dogs and found it very easy.

To make things easier for yourself, I'd recommend getting a big silicone sheet, the oven liner kind, and putting that under the chopping board you use for raw meat. Use a coloured board, and a particular knife, for the meat, and rubber gloves if you are very squeamish. The Sheet is very useful to keep the counter clean when portioning out cooked food, too. Everything can be washed in very hot water with detergent.

Sorry - this has turned into a book-length post!


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## JudyD

Ciscley, here's my input. Perhaps you'll find it helpful. 

If I weren't getting all of the beef and pork free from a local slaughterhouse, it would cost considerably more to feed raw, because I have two big dogs that eat around 20 pounds of meat a week. It still isn't free, because I buy all my poultry, an occasional rabbit, extra eggs, veggies, fish, and fish oil. 

Because I do get the meat from a slaughterhouse, it isn't easier, either. I cut, weigh, package, and freeze the meat, then thaw it, weigh it again to parcel it out between the two dogs, and combine it with organ meat, eggs, fish, steamed or ground veggies, etc., that are also weighed. All the weighing/measuring is because I worry about getting an adequate balance of nutrients, so I track and record what and how much each dog eats. (Clearly I'm not in the camp that just throws a meaty bone into the back yard and stands back, but what can I say? I consider OCD one of my core values.) 

Sanitation is an issue, so I wear gloves when I'm packaging the bulk meat, but not when I put it out to feed. I wash my hands frequently. I clean my counters and sink bowl with either soap and water or a disinfectant kitchen spray, wash the cutting board (that one is never used for our food), knives, and containers and then run them through the dishwasher on the sanitize cycle. It's the same routine I 've always used when I'm cooking meat for our use. Incidentally, the dog bowls never go into the dishwasher, but I wash them several times a week with hot, soapy water.

I feed meaty bones outside, because I can't see any way to do it inside without making a real mess. If I remember, I wipe the poodle's face with a wet paper towel. The Lab doesn't seem to get much on his face, and they rarely use paws to hold the food, so I don't worry about that. They seldom relieve themselves in our yard--we walk them in a nearby meadow, where they usually get over into the weeds to poop. Nobody in the family has a compromised immune system, so I don't fret about any of us tracking pathogens back into the house. I just run the sweeper and mop the floors as I've always done.

I know there are others who make a much easier job of this than I do, but for me, it's well worth the extra work. The dogs look forward to their meals, they look wonderful, they clearly feel energetic, and their health is better than it was on kibble.


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## Spoo klaus

Thanks JudyD ,you have said every little word that I wanted to say ! 


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## faerie

Cicely I'm on an iPad some couldn't remember your name. Sorry. It was on another page! 

I don't clean my dogs after they eat. I was meaning the food prep area and the bowls. 
I'm not as concerned about pathogens too much as we're not immune compromised here. 

As to salmonella and other pathogens: they're also found in fruits and veggies too (spinach? Strawberries etc ...) 

The less a food is processed the healthier it is. I do my best to provide clean grass fed locally raised foods to my dogs and cat ( and human family too!). 

There are beneficial enzymes in raw meat that are beneficial to our pets that are removed when we over process it. We then have to add it back. So best to try to keep as true to the source as possible. 

For veggies and fruits to feed dogs it needs to be more processed as our dogs can't digest it as efficiently as raw meat. So some we lightly cook and purée and others we feed raw, but it needs to be puréed.


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## hunny518

I've been a vegetarian for almost 18 years. I feel your pain about handling raw meat and feeling like you are contaminating your whole house.

I have tried the raw food diet and the more I handled it the harder it was for me so eventually I went back to straight kibble.

Please! Before anyone jumps down my throat and tells me to get over it for the health of my dogs, let me explain that I am trying to get over it.

I give my dogs raw bones on a weekly basis, but they have to eat them outside, thankfully we had been having beautiful weather.

I understand the benefits of raw feeding and I am doing my best to get over my squeamishness of handling raw meat.

This thread has helped me come up with easier ideas to keep it clean.

Another thing is, I have white carpets and Aria likes to run into the living room and drop her raw food on the carpet and eat it! She doesn't do that with kibble but I think with the meat she is takin it to a more private area away from the rest of us, because you know, I might try and steal it out of her bowl and eat it. Lol

I got a little offended by an earlier poster telling the vegan to just get over it, mostly because not to long ago I was lectured and told I needed to get over it and it was automatically assumed that i was saying I was feeding my dogs a vegetarian diet and was told that dogs aren't meant to be vegetarians and I need to just suck it up and deal with it if I really care about my dogs.

I never said I feed my dogs a vegetarian diet nor have I ever believed they should be. I don't force my husband and my son to be vegetarians so why would I force my pets.

But, to those of us who are not used to raw meat juicing all over our counters please have a little sympathy because we are still at least trying to get over our germaphobic fears. 


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## faerie

I'm sorry your sensitivities got offended. That was me who said "move beyond it" not "get over it" ... I never said nor inferred anyone was advocating feeding their dogs a vegan diet. 

I have many vegetarian and vegan friends who have had to figure out a way to feed their dogs a species appropriate diet. 

I get skeeved out. I've had to overcome aversions too. I wear gloves! 

I recommend setting up a space outside the kitchen OR separate utensils totally for food prep if you prepare in the home. Feed in a crate. Or a room with no carpet that you can place a mat down or mop. Confine them during meal times. After they eat, I remove bowls and wash and then mop the space if they ate outside the bowl. (Like raw meaty bone got dropped on the floor). 

I have a separate freezer for storing pet meat. (With six dogs I go thru a lot). When I bring meat to the house, I keep those portions in a separate section for the dogs food. Additionally, when I bring out to thaw, I have a crisper drawer only for pet food. I have bowls and utensils only for pet food prep.


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## CharismaticMillie

Ciscley said:


> Said vegan poster would welcome more feedback. Most responses I've seen elsewhere about RMB or BARF say it's cheaper and easier than feeding a quality kibble and all agree it's healthier. But why is it better than feeding the same ingredients just cooked at home?
> 
> Is raw meat superior to cooked meat nutritionally? Is it easier to digest?
> 
> My personal concerns aren't, ewww, Raw Meat is GROSS and blood ruins my manicure, but raw meat has to be handled safely when packaging, maintained at proper temperature when stored, handled safely when thawing and feeding, and even then could still make my dog or myself sick.
> 
> Can someone share with me how they clean up after their dog's meals so I can visualize this process better? I assume I'm not bleach watering my dog's muzzle, but do you soapy water wash their mouth and paws after every raw meal? What about the contamination in your yard from the shed pathogens in the dog waste? Even if I wear gloves while I police my yard and take my shoes off at the door, won't the dog track the pathogens back in the house on their feet?
> 
> 
> 
> I get that quality, fresh, minimally processed meat and vegetables are better for a dog than commercially processed animal byproducts and filler grains, but I don't see the clear indication that raw is better than cooked.
> 
> My issue with cooking originally was how to maintain the balance needed without supplementation, especially in regards to a growing puppy and calcium, since I can't feed my dogs cooked bones. But pressure cooking a whole chicken or beef ribs, etc, will apparently make the bones soft enough to grind with the meat and requires a single appliance to be in contact with the raw meat vs my counters, knives, cutting boards, etc. :questionmark:


I have found raw feeding to be considerably more expensive than even the most expensive of kibbles. I do not have access to slaughterhouses or access to butchers willing to cut me a deal. When I was feeding an entirely homemade raw diet, I purchased all of my meat from a company called My Pet Carnivore that has various different proteins from small midwestern farms. I would pay anywhere from $2.00-$8.00/lb for meat. I was feeding one dog that eats nearly 2 pounds daily, and another that eats one pound. You can do the math there. 

Raw feeding all 3 of my dogs is too expensive at the moment so I now feed a combination of raw and kibble. I think that for many people, raw feeding is exponentially more expensive than kibble. 

Nutritionally, meat that is cooked or processed in a way that involves heat is nutritionally altered in a way that raw meat is not. This is one of the superior qualities of raw feeding compared to cooked. Dogs that eat raw tend to have very healthy digestive systems and can tolerate just about anything.

As far as handling meat safely, yes, his has to be done whether you cook it or not. I think that safe handling of meat is a pretty common sense practice and should be followed whether you are feeding raw, cooking for your dog or cooking for your family. And, I mean, don't most people clean their sink and countertops anyway? And wash their hands after handling meat? 

Most likely, raw isn't going to make your dog sick from bacteria. It's really not very common at all in a healthy dog. Remember that human digestive systems are very different from dogs'. While dogs are capable of developing salmonella and other bacterial infections just like humans, the ways that their digestive system differs offers them a LOT of protection against infection. Remember that their digestive system is very small and food travels through extremely quickly. Also, they have a more acidic environment in their stomach. 

Now, if you rush into raw feeding without giving your dog time to adjust you might get a dog with diarrhea or vomiting from the richness of the proteins. This is why it is important to go extremely slow with the transition and to choose the easiest to digest meat/bone first.

As far as contamination in your yard. Do you think that the stool of _any_ dog is clean? I mean come on now - it's _poop_ we're talking about! Again, common sense says that regardless of your dog's diet (or yours!!!), poop should always be considered contaminated, full of bacteria, and disposed of in a timely and correct manner. 

I think you are over thinking and making things too complicated. Good common sense when it comes to hygiene and a functioning immune system keep most of us raw feeders safe and sound.  

Anyway, a exposure little bacteria really isn't the end of the world and in my opinion is beneficial. I'm not a believer in living in a sterile environment. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.  Studies are showing that children growing up in environments with more bacteria may be less likely to develop allergies - basically an overactive immune system - later in life.

As far as how I clean up after raw meals, let me explain what type of meals I feed. Sometimes I feed ground raw meat/bone/organ and veggie/fruit dehydrated mix in a bowl - which requires zero cleanup aside from rinsing the bowl with hot soapy water. Or, if I am feeding a check leg or turkey neck, I lay down a towel in the laundry room, put a snood over the dog's head, and let them enjoy. My dogs stay in one spot and eat over the towel. Afterward, I put the towel in the wash and go over the floor with a Swiffer mop (antibacterial solution) if needed. 

No, I never wipe their faces. Don't we all assume that dog faces are laden with bacteria regardless of what type of diet they eat??

I don't wipe their paws after they go outside because a) I just assume that dirt outside always contains a degree of bacteria and, b) I scoop the yard daily for poop so it's unlikely they have stepped in anything. 

Hope this helps!


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## hunny518

faerie said:


> I'm sorry your sensitivities got offended. That was me who said "move beyond it" not "get over it" ... I never said nor inferred anyone was advocating feeding their dogs a vegan diet.
> 
> I have many vegetarian and vegan friends who have had to figure out a way to feed their dogs a species appropriate diet.
> 
> I get skeeved out. I've had to overcome aversions too. I wear gloves!
> 
> I recommend setting up a space outside the kitchen OR separate utensils totally for food prep if you prepare in the home. Feed in a crate. Or a room with no carpet that you can place a mat down or mop. Confine them during meal times. After they eat, I remove bowls and wash and then mop the space if they ate outside the bowl. (Like raw meaty bone got dropped on the floor).
> 
> I have a separate freezer for storing pet meat. (With six dogs I go thru a lot). When I bring meat to the house, I keep those portions in a separate section for the dogs food. Additionally, when I bring out to thaw, I have a crisper drawer only for pet food. I have bowls and utensils only for pet food prep.


Didn't say you did accuse me of feeding my dogs a vegetarian diet, I was saying recently I had a person in-person assume I was.
Unfortunately the only place I have to feed my dogs is either outside or in my kitchen so my spaces are limited and their kennel is in my bedroom so I don't want to confine them in there with raw meat. However, I am continuing to try and "move past it". 
I'm not much of a germaphobe but I have a really hard time handling raw meat because of its texture and then the fact that the juices run all over the counter and I'm always so worried I missed something. I've been looking into different companies that package raw meat and deliver it to you such as Darwins and Columbia rivers natural pet. 
They seem to make it easier for me by having things already cut or portioned out. I have no problem paying a little more for it to lower the gross factor.

I don't mind storing the raw meat in my freezer with the other food, I don't have room for a separate freezer in my house, and I also don't worry about wiping my dogs feet or faces after they eat it, except sometimes I will if aria gets blood on her legs because she is white and I don't want it to stain.


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## CT Girl

I get Aunt Jenni for Swizzle. I get the three pound containers. I use a spoon, a scale and Saran Wrap. While the Aunt Jenni is still frozen but scoop able I wrap individual portions in Saran Wrap. I do the same with chicken necks. I defrost his meatballs in the fridge and they are still a little frozen when I give one to him. The chicken neck I serve frozen. This cuts down on the juices. The meatball goes I to his bowl and I just put that in the dishwasher. When he gets a chicken neck he eats on a towel. I wash his towels separately. He ever gets anything on the floor and has never stained his fur (he is silver). I must keep his food I my freezer. He is a toy so it does not take up too much space. Contamination issues exist with kibble too.


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## JudyD

I wipe Jazz's face less for sanitation reasons than because otherwise she smells like raw chicken for some time after she eats. The Lab doesn't. Go figure. :smile:


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## Spoo klaus

Whew ! What is the issue of handling raw meat ? I have made hamburgers ,cooked and fried chicken , sauted pork and beef and all other kinds of meals from raw meat to my children .Isn't all meat raw first ? Or is it that so many people buy ready made products to consume ? Not so healthy hence the weight problems ! 


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## hunny518

CT Girl said:


> I get Aunt Jenni for Swizzle. I get the three pound containers. I use a spoon, a scale and Saran Wrap. While the Aunt Jenni is still frozen but scoop able I wrap individual portions in Saran Wrap. I do the same with chicken necks. I defrost his meatballs in the fridge and they are still a little frozen when I give one to him. The chicken neck I serve frozen. This cuts down on the juices. The meatball goes I to his bowl and I just put that in the dishwasher. When he gets a chicken neck he eats on a towel. I wash his towels separately. He ever gets anything on the floor and has never stained his fur (he is silver). I must keep his food I my freezer. He is a toy so it does not take up too much space. Contamination issues exist with kibble too.


I will look into them too thanks 


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## hunny518

Spoo klaus said:


> Whew ! What is the issue of handling raw meat ? I have made hamburgers ,cooked and fried chicken , sauted pork and beef and all other kinds of meals from raw meat to my children .Isn't all meat raw first ? Or is it that so many people buy ready made products to consume ? Not so healthy hence the weight problems !
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My issue is the fact that I've been a vegetarian since I was 11 years old and haven't ever had to handle raw meat of any kind up until about 4 years ago I started to brave it a little because I love to cook and I have tried a couple real meat dishes for my husband and son. Even then I would beg my husband to rinse the raw meat when I could so I wouldn't have to touch it.. Lol

He takes pity on me because I tend to gag and make lots of noise while I'm handling it. Lol once it's cooked it doesn't bother me at all and I handle it fine.

I know kibble can contaminate also, but it doesn't run raw juice all over the counter or my sink, nor does it have that cold slimy squishy membrane texture to it. Lol
My challenges are caused simply because I just never have had to handle it before and I'm just not used to it. I feel like I never get my counters clean enough or my sink and I'm always paranoid that I missed something and didn't disinfect well enough.

I don't want people to think that I think the raw diet is unsanitary or anything like that, my issue is simply personal and I am trying to get over the obstacle because I so badly want to put my dogs on the raw food diet


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## patk

hunny518: look into using hydrogen peroxide in water for clean up. many years ago when i lived in india (the land of many vegetarians), we used hydrogen peroxide in water for soaking fruits and vegetables before eating them. i still use hydrogen peroxide in water at times to clean up after my dog if he has an accident/gets sick.


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## CharismaticMillie

I can't say I like meat juices running all over my counters either, and it is not usually an issue, but what I sometimes do is clean the smaller half of our sink with some bleach to make sure it is clean and then handle the meat in there. I clean the sink with bleach again when in done. I know I saw my mom doing this when she cooked for me growing up.


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## faerie

I do the same. One of my sinks is where I thaw meat. I confine it to there, cut the meat in it and turn put in bowls. Also with partially frozen you don't have as much gooey stuff. 

Then after prep, I wash out sink, fill with a bit of hot soapy water, then I wash pet bowls. I use a separate dishcloth for washing up, then I put in laundry. 

I am now more comfortable with my process and even have a meat grinder I grind so I can offer mix for my dogs as my son is not as savvy about proportions soa grind of appropriate mix will ensure my guys get fed properly when I travel.


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## CharismaticMillie

Yep. Well what I actually use is Soft Scrub with Bleach. We have a white porcelain sink and it helps remove the "metal scratches" so I use it frequently anyway. . If I had stainless I'd probably just use hot soapy water.


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## hunny518

patk said:


> hunny518: look into using hydrogen peroxide in water for clean up. many years ago when i lived in india (the land of many vegetarians), we used hydrogen peroxide in water for soaking fruits and vegetables before eating them. i still use hydrogen peroxide in water at times to clean up after my dog if he has an accident/gets sick.


GREAT IDEA!! thank you!!


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## hunny518

I have used one side of my sink to thaw out the meat too, and will continue as I try to get over my challenges.. Lol 

What if I touch something without washing my hands and forget and contaminate my whole kitchen unknowingly!!?!? Haha seriously, that's the type of irrational thoughts that go through my head.

I honestly do remind myself that there are many households who cook meat and handle raw meat on a daily basis and they aren't all dropping like flies from E. coli lol




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## fjm

Would you find it easier to handle the meat while it is still frozen, and defrost it in the dog bowl? That's how I deal with green tripe! Partially frozen meat is actually easier to cut, and is much less messy. The other thing I find useful when preparing batches of raw (like portioning chicken wings) is to have a bowl of hot, soapy water in the sink before I start. That way I can wash my hands without needing to touch anything when I realise the tray I need is still in the drawer...


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## CharismaticMillie

If you're worried you could always just use some antibacterial wipes on the 
surfaces you may have touched. I like Seventh Generation nontoxic antibacterial wipes.


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## Ciscley

I have 6 dogs in the house at the moment, including two puppies going through the counter surfing stage, so my brain is totally not functioning well enough at the moment to digest all the great info. (bad pun, sorry)

BUT, I just wanted to quick reply and thank everyone for responding. It's so much easier for me to process these kinds of decisions when I can understand how real people deal with the situation. Looking forward to reading through everything later tonight after doggie bed time.


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## JudyD

One more idea--use paper towels instead of kitchen towels and wash cloths to dry your hands, wipe up spills as you go, etc., then use a regular sponge or washcloth for the final cleaning. (Paper towels are the one essential I couldn't keep house without.)


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## hunny518

Ciscley said:


> I have 6 dogs in the house at the moment, including two puppies going through the counter surfing stage, so my brain is totally not functioning well enough at the moment to digest all the great info. (bad pun, sorry)
> 
> BUT, I just wanted to quick reply and thank everyone for responding. It's so much easier for me to process these kinds of decisions when I can understand how real people deal with the situation. Looking forward to reading through everything later tonight after doggie bed time.


I agree. The advice everyone is giving is great and will be useful in the future for me ;-)


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## kontiki

I used to get grossed out about handling raw meat and worry about salmonella too. However with all the dry kibble recalls for salmonella we can get it from kibble too! So, you are not safe either way and need to use good hygiene for both. 

I have discovered that if I put all of his meat into individual meal size portions in a zipper baggie and freeze them that when I go to feed him there is almost no contact with the meat.So when I get meat I do this for a lot of meals at a time so there is one thorough clean up. You can pretty much eliminate the blood and slimy feel too if the meat is partially frozen when you cut it into meal size portions, and it is easier to cut then too.

I label each baggie with his first initial, type of meat, and date so I can rotate meats easily and use up the oldest first.

When I go to feed him I just squeeze the individual portion, mostly thawed, out of the baggie onto a towel or mat that gets washed every few days. The towel/mat is on a hard surface floor that I can easily wash after eating.

I have trained him to have me wipe his face with either a damp paper towel, or washcloth after eating. I don't like the idea of him having meat germs around his mouth and on his face. He will actually now not even drink his water until I have done this, so he is less likely even to contaminate his water bowl. Quite amusing.

For those who think it is safer to cook it, it destroys the enzymes they need that makes raw so much more nutritious. If my spoo doesn't get raw bones he ends up with guishy poos. When they eat bone too, with raw they end up with very small firm poos because they have digested so much of it. They disintegrate quickly and have very little smell. I can always tell the quality of a dogs food just by looking at their poo  Those on kibble have so much undigested stuff that their poos are large.


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## kontiki

Cailin77 said:


> ....if you're going to give yogurt, I would give plain. The extra sugar in vanilla yogurt isn't something the dog needs.


I agree on the plain yogurt. If you read the ingredients on yogurt containers it's not just vanilla that's added, but sugars and chemicals. I was really surprised. Even for myself I get plain and add my own fruit or vanilla, etc. My dog loves the plain.


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## Sara&Audi

I gave up on homemade. It's too much effort and cooking meat along with cutting it revolts me. I have Audi on Small Batch raw patties and it is easier than kibble.(and cheaper) I haven't seen a big difference in energy, tear stains nor paw licking so who knows.. :/ 
The food isn't AAFCO certified either and doesn't have any vitamins, just 75% chicken and 25% organic vegetables. I don't even eat organic vegetables!! Hahaha


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> I have trained him to have me wipe his face with either a damp paper towel, or washcloth after eating. I don't like the idea of him having meat germs around his mouth and on his face. He will actually now not even drink his water until I have done this, so he is less likely even to contaminate his water bowl. Quite amusing.


I do the same with the face wiping.  I feel I can somewhat get kisses from Audi still, lol.


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## NYNIC715

Ciscley said:


> I wish they would list the recipe sources of the 4 to 9 that passed so we can find the publications and purchase the recipes.
> 
> While I believe RMB is probably the best diet for my future dog (can't say that for my very delicate rescue Spoo), as a vegan myself (health not moral reasons), *I'm just not comfortable handling raw meat products to the extent my research shows I would need to. Giving my dog or myself salmonella, ecoli, etc, is just not something I'm comfortable risking at this point.*So we're trying to find recipes for cooked meals that are a stepping stone between kibble and RMB (I want to get to RMB, I'm just fighting my germaphobe tendencies) and like this study shows, it's a damn hard thing to find good guidance on. Way too easy to not meet nutritional needs, especially with a growing puppy.
> 
> *sigh* time to think up a new RMB search string. Keep hoping I'll find a blog by an OCD vegan who is feeding her large breed puppy RMB.


That was my main concern when looking at raw diets. If my pooch eats some raw meat or chicken - and there are traces of it on his fur and I touch it unknowingly - will I contaminate myself? Definitely two points of view when it comes to raw feeding. But who am I to judge? Polo is doing well on Fromm & I have no intentions of changing it... Others swear by raw & that's great too. Whatever floats your boat I guess...


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## CharismaticMillie

NYNIC715 said:


> That was my main concern when looking at raw diets. If my pooch eats some raw meat or chicken - and there are traces of it on his fur and I touch it unknowingly - will I contaminate myself? Definitely two points of view when it comes to raw feeding. But who am I to judge? Polo is doing well on Fromm & I have no intentions of changing it... Others swear by raw & that's great too. Whatever floats your boat I guess...


I think it's a valid concern, but I just don't think it's very likely. I do think that you could theoretically get sick from not properly handling raw meat, just like when you cook, which is why good common sense when handling meat is important - always. I don't worry too much about their fur being contaminated from a raw diet specifically because..I mean..have you seen what dogs eat and lick and such? Surely all dogs are exposed to some nasty bacteria from eating droppings and the like outside, licking themselves to stay clean, licking each others' butts....and other parts....:alien2:


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## NYNIC715

CharismaticMillie said:


> I think it's a valid concern, but I just don't think it's very likely. I do think that you could theoretically get sick from not properly handling raw meat, just like when you cook, which is why good common sense when handling meat is important - always. I don't worry too much about their fur being contaminated from a raw diet specifically because..I mean..have you seen what dogs eat and lick and such? Surely all dogs are exposed to some nasty bacteria from eating droppings and the like outside, licking themselves to stay clean, licking each others' butts....and other parts....:alien2:


VERY valid points... I get grossed out when Polo starts to lick his nads... blech! uke:


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## Quossum

I'm with CM in that, really, the contamination aspect should be low on one's list of concerns. I've fed raw since '97 and have never had such an incident, and I freely confess that I'm not a neatnik and don't spray everything down with bleach or wipe down the dogs at all. Granted I'm of hardy stock and there are no immune-compromised beings in our household.

However, if one doesn't feel comfortable feeding raw / handling raw meat, for whatever reqson, one shouldn't do it. There are tons of "best practices" in life which I--ahem--don't do for various and sundry reasons (from the lazy to the practical to the "peculiar to my own quirks and personality" reasons), and hey, that's the way it is. Throughout this thread raw feeders have offered lots of solutions to people's various concerns (which can also be found on most raw-feeding sites), but if raw feeding is a best practice that doesn't fit your lifestyle...don't do it. And don't feel bad about it. As a previous poster said, whatever floats your boat! :act-up: There are plenty of decent-enough foods out there for everyone. We all know the tales of the neighbor / relative / friend whose dog ate Ol' Roy all his life and lived to 17. And I'm sure we're ALL doing better than Ol' Roy! :laugh:

--Q


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## Chagall's mom

Of possible interest, from *Dog Food Advisor*.

Raw Dog Foods
Suggested Raw Dog Foods

A raw dog food diet is designed to mimic a dog’s natural ancestral menu. The whole concept of raw feeding is based upon a dog’s instinctive carnivorous bias — a built-in desire to capture (or find) and eat another animal.

As unsavory as it may seem, it is completely natural for a wolf to consume the entire animal. 

Meat, bones, organs and all.

As direct descendants of wolves, dogs are simply not genetically optimized to consume the 50% carbohydrate content of today’s commercial kibbles.

So, how do these diets compare?

The Ancestral Diet
Compared to Dry Kibble

No one can argue the dry baked pellets we call dog food aren’t convenient. Yet the nutrient profile of a dry kibble is nowhere near the nutrient content of a dog’s ancestral diet.








Notice the higher carbohydrate content of the kibble compared to the dog’s natural ancestral diet. Or how about the dramatically lower protein and fat levels?

The Benefits of a Raw Diet

Feeding a raw dog food diet has many notable benefits…

Firmer stools
* Improved digestion
* Healthier skin and coat
* Reduced allergy symptoms
* Better weight management

There have been many reports of improved health when chronically ill pets were switched from a commercial product to a raw dog food.

The Downside
of a Raw Dog Food Diet

A raw dog food diet can’t touch the convenience of a kibble. Just measure and pour. It just doesn’t get any easier.

Yet besides the lack of convenience, there’s another critical issue. Bacterial contamination.

Salmonella and E. coli germs can always be a potential problem with raw meats. Yet the risk of food-borne disease is actually quite low.

That is, low risk for dogs. But not for humans.

That’s because a dog’s digestive system is shorter and more acidic.

Which makes canine infections like these fairly rare.

The real risk of food-borne disease is actually greater for a dog’s human caretakers — not the dog. 

Yet with proper care and handling, this risk can be dramatically reduced.

*(click **Raw Dog Foods for the site's list of pre-packaged brand ratings, and to see the nutrient comparison chart with more clarity.):eating:*


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> I gave up on homemade. It's too much effort and cooking meat along with cutting it revolts me. I have Audi on Small Batch raw patties and it is easier than kibble.(and cheaper) I haven't seen a big difference in energy, tear stains nor paw licking so who knows.. :/
> The food isn't AAFCO certified either and doesn't have any vitamins, just 75% chicken and 25% organic vegetables. I don't even eat organic vegetables!! Hahaha


Hey - I would give up on homemade and the mess and time and energy involved too. And cooking the meat destroys most of the enzymes. That's why I do raw only. I do keep a small amount of kibble that he didn't react to, and he get's that when I have run out of meat, maybe once a month.

Probably the best thing I did was just get in the habit of washing my hands the very second after I have touched meat, or kibble for that matter, since they keep having kibble recalls due to salmonella and we can get it from just handling the infected kibble. Also immediately wash any surface touched too (ie counter, cutting board, etc). For that I use a paper towel with soap and water.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Hey - I would give up on homemade and the mess and time and energy involved too. And cooking the meat destroys most of the enzymes. That's why I do raw only. I do keep a small amount of kibble that he didn't react to, and he get's that when I have run out of meat, maybe once a month.
> 
> Probably the best thing I did was just get in the habit of washing my hands the very second after I have touched meat, or kibble for that matter, since they keep having kibble recalls due to salmonella and we can get it from just handling the infected kibble. Also immediately wash any surface touched too (ie counter, cutting board, etc). For that I use a paper towel with soap and water.


I did try raw but she would eat it in the whole form, so I'd have to cut raw chicken for 10 minutes and she still wouldn't eat it.  she's scared of bones, have you ever heard of a dog being scared of bones because I sure haven't?!
You're lucky your dog enjoy raw, he must be very healthy! 

I always wash my hands even after touching her water bowl since you never know. I really need to get in the habit of washing surfaces though. I never prepare meat unless it's for Audi. 

So far, she's doing decently on Small Batch. I am suspicious about it being as good as real raw since there is no bone chewing involved.


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> I did try raw but she would eat it in the whole form, so I'd have to cut raw chicken for 10 minutes and she still wouldn't eat it.  she's scared of bones, have you ever heard of a dog being scared of bones because I sure haven't?!
> You're lucky your dog enjoy raw, he must be very healthy!


I am confused here. You said she would eat it in the whole form, but then the rest of the info ddn't go with that. Did you mean wouldn't?

Have you tried just holding the end of a drumstick or thigh, very patiently to let her chew on the other end? You could also have it just partially frozen so it isn't slippery. I would suggest not trying to push them to do it or be overly encouraging. I found better even to pull slightly back to make him go for it sometimes. 

I wonder, maybe it looks like something she was hit with before, or maybe she ate a cooked chicken bone and choked and got ill from it. Do not ever feed cooked bones (not even partially defrosted in the micro with bone it.)


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> I am confused here. You said she would eat it in the whole form, but then the rest of the info ddn't go with that. Did you mean wouldn't?
> 
> Have you tried just holding the end of a drumstick or thigh, very patiently to let her chew on the other end? You could also have it just partially frozen so it isn't slippery. I would suggest not trying to push them to do it or be overly encouraging. I found better even to pull slightly back to make him go for it sometimes.
> 
> I wonder, maybe it looks like something she was hit with before, or maybe she ate a cooked chicken bone and choked and got ill from it. Do not ever feed cooked bones (not even partially defrosted in the micro with bone it.)


Whoops, yes I meant wouldn't, sorry. 

Yes, I have. She backs away fearfully from it. I will try your tips again tonight, she's warmed a bit more up to raw. 

Wow, I never thought of that! She was definitely abused, I always thought it was from sticks or pieces of wood. Maybe that is the reason she does the scared backing away.. I do think another reason is being afraid to chew anything other than soft chews(greenies). My mom fed her a cooked bone once, that was a bad experience  

Thank you for the advice!

Update: I fed her the way you told me to, and she gobbled the bone up and looked for more. My mom did put the completely frozen drumstick in the microwave for 2 minutes to thaw it out and it cooked a little :/


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> Whoops, yes I meant wouldn't, sorry.
> 
> Yes, I have. She backs away fearfully from it. I will try your tips again tonight, she's warmed a bit more up to raw.
> 
> Wow, I never thought of that! She was definitely abused, I always thought it was from sticks or pieces of wood. Maybe that is the reason she does the scared backing away.. I do think another reason is being afraid to chew anything other than soft chews(greenies). My mom fed her a cooked bone once, that was a bad experience
> 
> Thank you for the advice!
> 
> Update: I fed her the way you told me to, and she gobbled the bone up and looked for more. My mom did put the completely frozen drumstick in the microwave for 2 minutes to thaw it out and it cooked a little :/


Whew, I am so glad to hear the update! I just had an inckling that might be so. One bone for today is enough though! I am so glad this worked. If she is not used to bone you might want to start slow and watch her poos. They will change, and may turn a hard light color with too much bone. Maybe tomorrow a bone in chicken breast. Then the next time a thigh. After doing well for a week or two on one meat you will want to add other meats, one at a time so you know if there is one that causes problems. Congratulations! Check a good rawfeeding site about adding organs also. I had a hard time getting him to eat liver at first. If that happens ask again. So happy for her.


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## CharismaticMillie

I wouldn't recommend thawing raw edible bones in the microwave. If the bone starts to cook, it will change in structure and no longer be safe. Also, it may damage any enzymes present in the meat - which is one of the reasons for feeding raw. Running it under some cool water is a better idea.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Whew, I am so glad to hear the update! I just had an inckling that might be so. One bone for today is enough though! I am so glad this worked. If she is not used to bone you might want to start slow and watch her poos. They will change, and may turn a hard light color with too much bone. Maybe tomorrow a bone in chicken breast. Then the next time a thigh. After doing well for a week or two on one meat you will want to add other meats, one at a time so you know if there is one that causes problems. Congratulations! Check a good rawfeeding site about adding organs also. I had a hard time getting him to eat liver at first. If that happens ask again. So happy for her.


I fed her about a 1/3 of the bone but she wanted more. I noticed through my gloved hands that is was extremely sharp. Thank you so much for the advice, I am forever grateful! I am hoping now she will eat a raw drumstick. She even pulled the meat off the bone, and she usually needs to be spoon fed! I used to follow her around with the food and encourage. She enjoys liver, cooked of course. Thank you for your kindness  I have a drumstick thawing now for tomorrow morning.


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## Sara&Audi

CharismaticMillie said:


> I wouldn't recommend thawing raw edible bones in the microwave. If the bone starts to cook, it will change in structure and no longer be safe. Also, it may damage any enzymes present in the meat - which is one of the reasons for feeding raw. Running it under some cool water is a better idea.


Thank you for the advice.
I felt queasy microwaving it but my mother would not allow me to put it at a lower setting. Tomorrow morning's breakfast will be a thawed drumstick, and I'll see how she reacts from there.


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> Thank you for the advice.
> I felt queasy microwaving it but my mother would not allow me to put it at a lower setting. Tomorrow morning's breakfast will be a thawed drumstick, and I'll see how she reacts from there.


Even if your drumstick is not totally thawed just give it to her that way. Never feed microwaved meat with bone, even on low. Even just the defrost in microwave changes the bone to dangerous, and degrades the nutrients in the meat. If you think it is way too frozen, stick it in a zipped baggie in a bowl or pan of lukewarm water and wait for it to thaw a bit more.

Looking forward to hearing how she does with her drumstick


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> ..... She even pulled the meat off the bone, and she usually needs to be spoon fed! I used to follow her around with the food and encourage.
> 
> She enjoys liver, cooked of course.


Cook liver is fairly ok, but has lost the majority of the enzymes and other nutrients our dogs so need. Try cooking it less and less (not in the microwave) until she will eat it raw. I still cut mine into smaller pieces while it is at least partly frozen to make it easier to cut. But feeding it fully thawed or partially thawed is fine. 

It is very rich so don't give her very much at a time until you see how she digests it. My spoo started out on a full meal of it and got the runs, so I cut back and gave him a few bites per meal for a couple of weeks. He's adapted now and been eating a full meal or so a week of it now for over 2 years and does fine, just a darker poo.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Even if your drumstick is not totally thawed just give it to her that way. Never feed microwaved meat with bone, even on low. Even just the defrost in microwave changes the bone to dangerous, and degrades the nutrients in the meat. If you think it is way too frozen, stick it in a zipped baggie in a bowl or pan of lukewarm water and wait for it to thaw a bit more.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing how she does with her drumstick


Thank you again for the advice! I am mostly(parents choice) vegetarian so I really don't know much about meat. I'm still thinking of how I'll feed raw when I become vegan, lol.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Cook liver is fairly ok, but has lost the majority of the enzymes and other nutrients our dogs so need. Try cooking it less and less (not in the microwave) until she will eat it raw. I still cut mine into smaller pieces while it is at least partly frozen to make it easier to cut. But feeding it fully thawed or partially thawed is fine.
> 
> It is very rich so don't give her very much at a time until you see how she digests it. My spoo started out on a full meal of it and got the runs, so I cut back and gave him a few bites per meal for a couple of weeks. He's adapted now and been eating a full meal or so a week of it now for over 2 years and does fine, just a darker poo.


Is once a week a right amount? I remember we bought a package of giblets and fed it to her over 2-3 days and she seemed fine. I'm glad to hear your spoo is adjusted now! I appreciate your input!


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> I am mostly(parents choice) vegetarian so I really don't know much about meat. I'm still thinking of how I'll feed raw when I become vegan, lol.


Chuckle! You do not need to eat your dogs kibble if that is what she is eating. Neither do you need to eat her raw meat! Almost all kibble has meat in it too


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## CharismaticMillie

When I fed homemade raw, the only way I could get one of my dogs to eat liver was to sear it with butter, ha! Everybody else got it raw.


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## kontiki

About liver in your dog's raw diet - continued......



Sara&Audi said:


> Is once a week a right amount? I remember we bought a package of giblets and fed it to her over 2-3 days and she seemed fine. I'm glad to hear your spoo is adjusted now! I appreciate your input!


:airplane: Here is what most recommend as a basic thumbnail guide to rawfeeding. Feed overall 2 - 3 % of their ideal adult weight per day. About 80% of that is meat (flesh, fat, skin, sinew, etc), 10% edible bone, and 10% organ, half of which is liver (so about 5% liver). Tongue and heart and gizzards are fed as meat, not organ. Organs include liver, kidney, etc.

Hey, I love giving pointers, but am not the expert. There is a plenty out there to read to give you a better understanding. Jane's link Jane Anderson's Raw Learning Site is a good start.
You can also check out the sticky in our Poodle Forum, in the Poodle Food thread. It has some great links. I also joined a raw Yahoo Group to be able to ask lots of questions at first - there is a link to it in Jane's link. It is also referenced in the sticky. Many folks that feed raw here too have really good advice. 

Just remember - it is really simple! Some folks have made it horribly complicated and it can be overwhelming to read all that stuff and think you need to do it all. Some of it must have been developed by overly pedantic perfectionists. Go back to the basic thumbnail guide to maintain sanity. Ha!


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Chuckle! You do not need to eat your dogs kibble if that is what she is eating. Neither do you need to eat her raw meat! Almost all kibble has meat in it too


Yep, it's more of a question of ethics to me. I'm on the fence about making her a vegetarian like me, sometimes I'm all for raw, sometimes I just want to give her veggies. Maybe I'll resort to kibble like Orijen or more likely a premade raw. I can just imagine my shopping card full of vegan goodies like vegan cheese and then a pack of chicken drumsticks. 

As a side note, while Audi was having a chicken drumstick, I was enjoying a wonderful vegan chicken sandwich. Pretty funny if you ask me


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> About liver in your dog's raw diet - continued......
> 
> 
> 
> :airplane: Here is what most recommend as a basic thumbnail guide to rawfeeding. Feed overall 2 - 3 % of their ideal adult weight per day. About 80% of that is meat (flesh, fat, skin, sinew, etc), 10% edible bone, and 10% organ, half of which is liver (so about 5% liver). Tongue and heart and gizzards are fed as meat, not organ. Organs include liver, kidney, etc.
> 
> Hey, I love giving pointers, but am not the expert. There is a plenty out there to read to give you a better understanding. Jane's link Jane Anderson's Raw Learning Site is a good start.
> You can also check out the sticky in our Poodle Forum, in the Poodle Food thread. It has some great links. I also joined a raw Yahoo Group to be able to ask lots of questions at first - there is a link to it in Jane's link. It is also referenced in the sticky. Many folks that feed raw here too have really good advice.
> 
> Just remember - it is really simple! Some folks have made it horribly complicated and it can be overwhelming to read all that stuff and think you need to do it all. Some of it must have been developed by overly pedantic perfectionists. Go back to the basic thumbnail guide to maintain sanity. Ha!


Oh my, that sounds complicated. No puréed veggies either? I am thinking of making patties and freezing those. I currently feed her a premade raw that is very local and has pretty much everything figured out. Here is the link:
SmallBatch Raw Frozen Dog Food | Review and Rating
What do you think?

Thank you again for the advice! Unfortunately, my happiness was short lived  Audi had a bad day yesterday, she pooped in her room(first time ever) and refused to eat the thawed raw drumstick. I came home at 4 and she still refused. So we fed her normal raw food, and for dinner the drumstick was cooked a bit without bone. She is an odd dog for sure. I'm hoping my next poodle will eat bones and raw meat. I'm thanking the heavens that she loves this raw food.


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## CharismaticMillie

Dogs are not designed to eat an entirely vegetarian diet...


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> Oh my, that sounds complicated. No puréed veggies either? I am thinking of making patties and freezing those. I currently feed her a premade raw that is very local and has pretty much everything figured out. Here is the link:
> SmallBatch Raw Frozen Dog Food | Review and Rating
> What do you think?
> 
> Thank you again for the advice! Unfortunately, my happiness was short lived  Audi had a bad day yesterday, she pooped in her room(first time ever) and refused to eat the thawed raw drumstick. I came home at 4 and she still refused. So we fed her normal raw food, and for dinner the drumstick was cooked a bit without bone. She is an odd dog for sure. I'm hoping my next poodle will eat bones and raw meat. I'm thanking the heavens that she loves this raw food.


Hmm - odd about the poop. Lot's of times when changing to a whole new way of eating it takes awhile for the digestive system to get used to it. Don't push something on her she doesn't want. Argh I hated it when my mom did that to me! But hey, you learned something! The reviews are good on your raw premade and it sounds healthy. Most raw feeders don't think they really need the veggies, but I would feed it  You found out about maybe more on the abuse issue too. Keep up the good work.


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## JudyD

kontiki said:


> Most raw feeders don't think they really need the veggies, but I would feed it


Since I don't do the whole prey model type of raw feeding, my dogs get a few ounces of veggies every day, as much for fiber, as a replacement for the skin, hair/fur, etc., that they don't get from their food, as for nutrition.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> Hmm - odd about the poop. Lot's of times when changing to a whole new way of eating it takes awhile for the digestive system to get used to it. Don't push something on her she doesn't want. Argh I hated it when my mom did that to me! But hey, you learned something! The reviews are good on your raw premade and it sounds healthy. Most raw feeders don't think they really need the veggies, but I would feed it  You found out about maybe more on the abuse issue too. Keep up the good work.


Thank you for the input! She seems ok on this food, but not thriving.. Makes me wonder.. I think veggies are necessary since dogs are omnivores. A bit unsure about the garlic.
Thank you again for all the assistance you've given me, I trulymappreciate it!


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## Sara&Audi

CharismaticMillie said:


> Dogs are not designed to eat an entirely vegetarian diet...


I may just feed the premade raw. I have head of the vegetarian dog that lived to 27.. Wonder if a homemade omnivorous diet can produce the same results.


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## CharismaticMillie

Sara&Audi said:


> I may just feed the premade raw. I have head of the vegetarian dog that lived to 27.. Wonder if a homemade omnivorous diet can produce the same results.


Longevity has much less to do with diet than it does genetics.


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> I may just feed the premade raw. I have head of the vegetarian dog that lived to 27.. Wonder if a homemade omnivorous diet can produce the same results.


I agree with CharismaticMillie. No wild dog eats a vegetarian diet. I don't think my dog would even be here anymore if I fed him vegetarian. I have given him chopped vegetables mixed with meat. He threw up or pooped out the vegetables and digested the meat. Hmmm.


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## Sara&Audi

CharismaticMillie said:


> Longevity has much less to do with diet than it does genetics.


Audi is very healthy, but I must admit I do not have her pedigree. It doesn't matter to me, she is perfect in my eyes. Maybe she has good genetics, maybe not. I'll find out later on, but in the meantime I'll feed her premade raw. Her vet and groomer rave about her health. Her groomer really noticed a change in her fur thickness since switching.


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## Sara&Audi

kontiki said:


> I agree with CharismaticMillie. No wild dog eats a vegetarian diet. I don't think my dog would even be here anymore if I fed him vegetarian. I have given him chopped vegetables mixed with meat. He threw up or pooped out the vegetables and digested the meat. Hmmm.


I think it suits some dogs, some not. I don't think it would suit Audi either since she doesn't eat much of anything. Her fur was shaved off today and wow, she is teeny. She looks so much better. Her fur is GREAT!! I really see an amazing difference in raw vs canned. I am paying less($24 a month), she's eating organic, free range, and raw. Just need a dental done for her and she has a clean bill of health!


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## CharismaticMillie

I very much believe in feeding a diet that will allow my dogs to thrive at their very best. For practical reasons, I feed a combination of raw and high quality kibble.. I wish I could continue to feed everyone _100%_ raw as I consider this ideal. Genetics will determine how long my dog will live much more than diet will. That said, I believe that diet has a big impact on their health during their hopefully very long life. With raw feeding, teeth are cleaner, poops are smaller and firmer, they are mentally stimulated from enjoying raw edible bones, digestive systems are accustomed to eating a wide variety of raw, fresh foods, we never get any ear infections or itchy skin, very few issues with fleas, etc etc. Genetics have the most to do with longevity, but diet is one of many environmental factors that can allow a dog to reach their full genetic potential in both health and longevity.


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## Sara&Audi

CharismaticMillie said:


> I very much believe in feeding a diet that will allow my dogs to thrive at their very best. For practical reasons, I feed a combination of raw and high quality kibble.. I wish I could continue to feed everyone _100%_ raw as I consider this ideal. Genetics will determine how long my dog will live much more than diet will. That said, I believe that diet has a big impact on their health during their hopefully very long life. With raw feeding, teeth are cleaner, poops are smaller and firmer, they are mentally stimulated from enjoying raw edible bones, digestive systems are accustomed to eating a wide variety of raw, fresh foods, we never get any ear infections or itchy skin, very few issues with fleas, etc etc. Genetics have the most to do with longevity, but diet is one of many environmental factors that can allow a dog to reach their full genetic potential in both health and longevity.


What brand kibble to you feed? Is this for vitamins? Does garlic help with fleas? Sorry for the questions, you are very educated in raw feeding like kontiki.  
Unfortunately, Audi does not receive all the benefits from raw as she will not touch real bones nor most kibble so her teeth are not very nice. I brush them however that isn't enough..

And on the topic of genetics, I do believe that a puppy mill dog will not have a very long lifespan than their reputable breeder counterparts. I do not believe Audi is from a puppy mill. Maybe an oops litter or designer dog breeder. Maybe one day I will see what she will consists of with a breed test. In the meantime, as far as I know, she's mostly poodle with a touch of bichon. Her tail and dew claws are docked so it is a strange and puzzling case indeed.


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## CharismaticMillie

I feed kibble now in addition to raw for cost. Acana or Fromm usually. 

I think that longevity is a deeper and more complex issue than just puppy mill vs reputable breeder. A healthy, well bred dog can still succumb to cancer and die at age seven.


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## Sara&Audi

CharismaticMillie said:


> I feed kibble now in addition to raw for cost. Acana or Fromm usually.
> 
> I think that longevity is a deeper and more complex issue than just puppy mill vs reputable breeder. A healthy, well bred dog can still succumb to cancer and die at age seven.


Nice brands, I was assuming they'd be those.
Yes, that is true. There are a variety of factors, genetics is a part. I'm also assuming the general treatment of the dog can help too.


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## faerie

I'd rather see a dog eat a cheaper kibble than a homemade vegetarian diet. 

I'm struggling to continue feeding my 6 dogs and cat all raw basically because of cost. I feed 175-200# a month. I feed a lot of poultry as its cheaper, but I aim for variety. So they eat chicken, turkey, rabbit, beef, venison and some pork. 

I pay from $1-$1.70 a pound depending on the protein. I'm considering trying some grain free kibble. I just don't want to. Everyone does so well on raw.


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## CharismaticMillie

Oh I forgot to add that I recently tried out TOTW with the girls because they were having some softer stools after Acana's formulas changed. It had never been on my top list because of issues I'd heard with Diamond but honestly...the girls did AWESOME on it.


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## Sara&Audi

faerie said:


> I'd rather see a dog eat a cheaper kibble than a homemade vegetarian diet.
> 
> I'm struggling to continue feeding my 6 dogs and cat all raw basically because of cost. I feed 175-200# a month. I feed a lot of poultry as its cheaper, but I aim for variety. So they eat chicken, turkey, rabbit, beef, venison and some pork.
> 
> I pay from $1-$1.70 a pound depending on the protein. I'm considering trying some grain free kibble. I just don't want to. Everyone does so well on raw.


Have you tried going to multiple meat shops and asking for leftovers? Many times they'll be free. They are mostly bones with a bit of meat left. Sometimes buying large quantities straight from a raw pet food manufacturer saves a bit too.


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## faerie

I stalk farmers and drive to butchers. It's still expensive. I can purchase 40# of chicken hearts and backs for .75 a pound, but I've got to drive 130 round trip. I usually get 80# and that brings it down. Add in gas and its adding up. So my cheapest is about .90-$1 a # including gas. 

I need more muscle meat as I can get raw meaty bones cheap. My highest muscle meat is $1.70 a pound. I try to feed as much red meat as I can.


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## kontiki

Sara&Audi said:


> Have you tried going to multiple meat shops and asking for leftovers? Many times they'll be free. They are mostly bones with a bit of meat left. Sometimes buying large quantities straight from a raw pet food manufacturer saves a bit too.





faerie said:


> I'm struggling to continue feeding my 6 dogs and cat all raw basically because of cost. I feed 175-200# a month. I feed a lot of poultry as its cheaper, but I aim for variety. So they eat chicken, turkey, rabbit, beef, venison and some pork.
> 
> I pay from $1-$1.70 a pound depending on the protein. I'm considering trying some grain free kibble. I just don't want to. Everyone does so well on raw.


Wow - 6 dogs at 175 to 200 lbs of meat a month! Heavens. Great that you have been able to get meat so cheaply. I have not found anything like that in the area I live and I have asked all over. 

I have had luck though with advertizing in my local freecyle for people cleaning meat out of their freezers. That has worked really well and I have gotten everything from chicken, to venison, to beef and pork. Some people just need room, or don't even want a tiny bit of freezer burn or something. We also have a local yardsale column that I have lucked out with.


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## liljaker

CharismaticMillie said:


> I feed kibble now in addition to raw for cost. Acana or Fromm usually.
> 
> I think that longevity is a deeper and more complex issue than just puppy mill vs reputable breeder. A healthy, well bred dog can still succumb to cancer and die at age seven.


I would not consider either of my previous poodles "well bred" -- one from a toy poodle from a pet shop many years ago, and a mini from a breeder in Indiana but definitely not "reputable." However, my toy lived to almost 17 and was pretty healthy until he was maybe 15 or so and developed Cushing's Disease, and my mini, Jake, made it to 16 was healthy his entire life (some allergies early on corrected with raw feeding) but had 2 CCL surgeries when he was 11 and 12. I know of poodles from reputable breeders who either got cancer or some other disease and had their life shortened. So, I don't think, generally, that has much to do with how long a pup lives either.


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## Sara&Audi

faerie said:


> I stalk farmers and drive to butchers. It's still expensive. I can purchase 40# of chicken hearts and backs for .75 a pound, but I've got to drive 130 round trip. I usually get 80# and that brings it down. Add in gas and its adding up. So my cheapest is about .90-$1 a # including gas.
> 
> I need more muscle meat as I can get raw meaty bones cheap. My highest muscle meat is $1.70 a pound. I try to feed as much red meat as I can.


Wow, ok, if I were in your place, I wouldn't be able to feed raw either.. That is so expensive.. Maybe try a very good quality kibble(Orijen, Acana) or possibly feed half raw half kibble. Another thing to do is maybe feed some of your dogs raw and some not if they do not have a grain allergy or special dietary concerns.


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## sulamk

Some wild dogs like Jakkals do eat fruit etc! As to genetics our longest living dog was a rough collie xgreyhound x labrador. He lived to 16 years old was always fed kibble with the occassional RMB. Our bc and gsd lived to 14 years also kibble fed. These all were big dogs.


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## faerie

Sara&Audi said:


> Wow, ok, if I were in your place, I wouldn't be able to feed raw either.. That is so expensive.. Maybe try a very good quality kibble(Orijen, Acana) or possibly feed half raw half kibble. Another thing to do is maybe feed some of your dogs raw and some not if they do not have a grain allergy or special dietary concerns.


I m considering doing something along those lines. Offering like 1/3 kibble to some.

If I could get prices down to average of 1.25, I'd not have a problem. I just prefer feeding more red meat and that drives budget up. I don't do a lot of pork for the dogs and cat.


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## Chagall's mom

Just read this and thought it a timely tidbit to share here.:eating:

Feeling At Home With Feeding Your Dog A Home Diet | Dogs Naturally Magazine..
Some excerpts...
If there’s one thing most pet food manufacturers are good at, it’s marketing. They’ve done a remarkable job of making pet owners believe they hold the secret to what our dogs should be eating and in what amounts. They lead us to believe that their food contains 100% complete and balanced nutrition; a misleading notion because there’s no way to determine what a complete and balanced diet is.

If you walk into a conventional veterinary office today and state you want to feed your dog a raw diet, you can pretty much guarantee you’ll hear all about the dangers of raw foods, unlike the veterinary formula food that will be sitting on the shelves in that clinic – veterinary food that, incidentally, has been recalled because of harmful ingredients either from melamine poisoning or, ironically, salmonella poisoning.

Now some people would smugly say that commercial pet foods have a lot of science and research behind them and raw foods don’t – and they would be right. But raw feeders don’t pay much attention to the science and the hoopla because they see with their own eyes how much healthier and disease resistant their dogs are. Sometimes seeing is believing.

For those of you who want the science behind raw feeding, ask yourself this: would you rather jump out of an airplane with a parachute or without? I’m sure you would choose the parachute option yet there isn’t one single scientific study proving that parachutes work. But we can clearly see that they do indeed work.

Raw feeders apply the same logic, especially those who also use holistic practices on their dogs. They see their friends’ conventionally raised dogs suffer diabetes, bloat, gastrointestinal problems, parasites and rotten teeth and they don’t see the same problems in their own dogs. Common sense would tell them that their food is working and not that dangerous compared to the alternative.

In the last six years, at least 4,500 cats and dogs have reportedly been killed by tainted commercial pet food. Now let’s compare that to the number of cats and dogs killed by raw foods. Anybody care to guess the number? Because it seems nobody knows.

It would appear that raw fed animals are enjoying the benefits of a scientifically unproven diet while in just the last few years, 4,500 animals fed scientifically researched, nutritionally complete commercial diets have crashed to the ground. Clearly, it’s time for pet owners to call on plain old common sense and simple observation when it comes to choosing a diet for our dogs.

If you still want science showing the benefits of raw food, there really isn’t much. But there is plentiful and growing evidence that even untainted cooked and processed foods contain dangerous substances including aflatoxins and synthetic vitamins and minerals that might lead to liver damage and dietary insufficiencies. If you’re still unsure of what to feed your dog, do your research and promise yourself you’ll dig into the health risks, not just the benefits, of processed foods. If you’re ready to move away from processed foods now, then read on.


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## Sweetp

Thanks for that posting, Chagall's mom. 
I do have a bowl of kibble set out for my dogs (Acana Grasslands) and they don't eat much of it since I only fill their small bowl once a week, but, still, I am very wary of feeding them food that I don't prepare myself.


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## faerie

i've stalked farmers the past few days. i've located a bunch of poultry backs and necks for 50 cents a pound. that and some other muscle meats and organs for $1 along with the grind i am getting for max of 1,40 a pound should help a lot.
yay!


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## fjm

I'm staying with friends, who were horrified at the thought of raw feeding - but yesterday we called in at their excellent local butcher who sells meat scraps for dogs very cheaply. I got enough for a couple of meals, and when we got home spread an old dog blanket outside the back door and tossed the dogs pieces of meat in turn - most of the chunks didn't even hit the ground, and the meal was gone in under a minute. My friends' reaction changed from "YUCK!" to "Well, that was easy..." I'll need to find somewhere to feed them RMBs soon, but I doubt waiting for a calcium boost till we get home on Friday will do them any harm...


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