# Show clips.



## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

Its is one of the 3 clips that are allowed in the AKC breed ring. Handlers in the US are more familiar with the continental and they feel it shows off the rear angulation and movement better....they are afraid to step outside their comfort zone and THEN more afraid of going in front of a judge who can't see THRU the HAIR. They think it might hurt their chances of winning.


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## SnorPuddel (Jul 8, 2010)

Personally I am not a fan of the English Saddle Clip, I like the Continental, love those bare legs. I do love the Modern as well, even though you can't see the skin.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

note that the link you posted shows the puppy lion/scandinanvian lion trim, which is different again to the english saddle trim!


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## Cornishbecky (Nov 21, 2009)

Altough I like that trim I dont love it, this is why i put Roxie in the German trim, if i decide to show her I will attempt to put her in the Continental trim.
But not many minis are shown in this trim, but i like to be different, I wish you could show them in any trim!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Slightly off the topic, but then it was my topic! But I really think that the Continental in particular does poodles a disservice. I know that it probably was the breed club or maybe AKC or CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) or some kind of authority that decided that poodles could only be shown in one of those "fancy" clips, but I really do think that it puts people off. 

When my son was looking for a dog, I suggested a black standard poodle but he rejected it right off. "I am NOT getting a poodle!!!" I think that if you could show a poodle in a regular normal "household" clip, pet people wouldn't have that "I am not get a dog that looks pooffy like that" attitude. They probably don't realize that poodles are retrievers and that they can look normal. They just see all that hair and those "silly" bobbles and they reject the breed out of hand. 

I had exactly that attitude. I wanted a Goldendoodle. I like the shaggy casual look. I had actually been looking for a Goldendoodle. What put me off was the fact that people want $2,500 for a pet and then a friend in the kennel club talked me out of it and suggested a Mini poodle. But it wasn't until I had searched the Internet and found photos of poodles without the fancy hairdo, that I decided I would get a Poodle. 

To this day, I still prefer the shaggy looks of a Goldendoodle's wavy coat to the curly hair of a Poodle. I am buying because of the temperament and because I found out that Poodles had not been bred to have no hair on their faces or feet!!!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree - I would love to see poodles shown in a retriever clip - apart from anything else, it is much more difficult to disguise faults in a short clip. It sometimes seems that a show poodle is as much a test of the owner's ability to grow and manage coat, and the groomer's skills in dressing it, as it is of the structure and soundness of the dog. Opening up showing to clips that are easier to maintain would also bring more dogs and owners into showing, and in turn increase the pool of dogs considered excellent enough for breeding, which increases the size of the gene pool. While judges find it hard to accept a dog with an undocked tail, I suspect it will be an impossible task to get them to look at a short coated dog, though!


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes. Well said. At my agility class the other day, the instructor said he thought it was ridiculous that Poodles were judged according to how good their coat looked. I know that is not how its supposed to be, but I suspect that this is often the case!!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Purley - way back when we got our first spoo (Tony) I felt the exact same way about the frou frou 'do putting people off. After 13 years of living with standard poodles and learning about the breed, the fancy 'dos have really grown on me!

I'm not saying I'm quite ready to have my spoos sporting full-blown CC's, but I have really begun to appreciate the look on show dogs! It is something so unique to poodles. I also really love the shaved butt look, ha ha!!!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I personally prefer the Continental ((Though I've never seen any other clip in person...and only saw the Conti just Sunday XD )) but all of that rear angulation is delicious!!! and you can't hide a bad backside with the conti :]

a poodle isn't for everyone, but if someone is so deterred by the hair on a show dog thats their own beef not the breeds 
lol it must be because I'm effeminate or something but when I saw a standard in full blown show coat I KNEW I had to have one instead of being all :wacko:


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Purley said:


> I think that if you could show a poodle in a regular normal "household" clip, pet people wouldn't have that "I am not get a dog that looks pooffy like that" attitude. They probably don't realize that poodles are retrievers and that they can look normal. They just see all that hair and those "silly" bobbles and they reject the breed out of hand.


It all comes down to preference IMO... We have a pet standard poodle. She will not be shown in conformation (she can't be as she is already spay) but she is clipped in the continental pattern. My husband and I both LOVE her in that clip. We LOVE the "silly" bobbles (which are called rosettes btw) and the cleanly shaven bum, face, feet and legs. She does look "normal" to us!

We are having issues with the groomer here in our town, but we found out there is a groomer 2.5 hours from us who does a good job with this clip. My husband has already stated that, if necessary, we will travel the 5 hours round trip to have Lucy's haircut done the way we want it... So you see, while there are people like you who want a shaggy, unkempt looking dog; there are also those who prefer the historical poodle clips that are required in the show ring - and there are even MEN who prefer that look! Nothing makes my husband more proud than to walk with Lucy in a freshly groomed continental and Meau in her modified continental (Meau doesn't have the rosettes - this is my daughter's choice as Meau is her dog.)

I agree that it would be nice to have more choice when showing for those who don't want the upkeep of the patterned clips - but that being said, if I were showing, my CHOICE would BE the continental clip!  JMHO!

Barb


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> It sometimes seems that a show poodle is as much a test of the owner's ability to grow and manage coat, and the groomer's skills in dressing it, as it is of the structure and soundness of the dog.


Yes, yes, yes!! I love a nicely-groomed dog - i.e, NOT a "shaggy, unkempt" look (thanks, Plumcrazy!) - and there is no reason why that should not include a short, athletic-looking retriever clip. These dogs were bred to be retrievers, after all. 

Did anyone see the recent Nat'l Geographic special "And Man Created Dog?" They showed a working poodle in a retriever clip with hair cut short and close to the body (not entirely shaved off), working and going after birds in a marsh. He (or she?) was beautiful!

I like the looks of the typical show coats just fine, but it's definitely true that the complicated grooming is not required to show a dog's soundness. A short athletic cut could show it just as well. Let it be a matter of owner preference and not a requirement.

Whether it's a plus or a minus that the fancy show coats put some people off the breed would be a good debate. Maybe people who are that easily put off aren't going to be happy owning poodles? I don't know. Prior to researching and then owning my first poodle, I thought it was considered desirable for all poodles to look like that, and was put off by the perceived expense of it. Then when I found out that most poodle owners kept their pets in a much simpler coat, and that I could probably learn how to do some of that basic grooming myself, I went ahead with buying my first. 

Now I would never own anything else, of course.


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

Yes, but all we were saying was that there are probably a lot of people who reject the breed because of the look. But if the "look" was not al over the place, then people probably would love the temperament. That is the don't go further and research the actual dog because they are put off by the look.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

That's what I meant by maybe it's debatable whether it's a plus or a minus that the show-cut look throws people off sometimes.

Poodles are popular enough right now that you can still find plenty of them in shelters and rescues. (That's where I found Pippin.) You can find them combined with everything under the sun. If more people thought their coat care was "easy," (which let's admit it, even in a pet or athletic clip it takes time and/or money to maintain), the situation might be even worse. I'm thinking maybe it's not too terrible that some people are put off by the frou-frou looks, because if they don't bother to research further, then they're not the sort of people who would be happy with poodles, even in simpler coats.

Make sense?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Trouble is, I think many of the people who are put off by the frou frou then buy into the whole designer dog, poodle cross thing. And while there are some delightful crosses out there, there are also an awful lot that are unsound, strangely shaped, and exhibiting many of the worst characteristics of both parent breeds. There is something very odd going on when a poodle-crossed-with-something-else puppy that may turn out anyhow is seen more as desirable (and sells for a higher price) than a well-bred, KC registered pup with a known history and known future size and look.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

Absolutely agree with you there.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Purley said:


> Yes, but all we were saying was that there are probably a lot of people who reject the breed because of the look. But if the "look" was not al over the place, then people probably would love the temperament. That is the don't go further and research the actual dog because they are put off by the look.


Yes, but all that *I* am saying is that for every person who may reject the breed because of the look, there is another one who gravitates to it for the very same reason!

Case in point - _you_ don't like "the look", but my husband and I _DO_... Tom, Richard and Harry may not like "the look", but Pete, Gary and Jim WILL... I believe it's ALL an individual thing... and goes for all breeds, not just poodles.

If an individual rejects an entire breed of dog solely on a couple of possible cosmetic, superficial haircut patterns, then IMO they are pretty closed minded and should research other breeds they like better. One of the best attributes of the poodle is its extreme ability to appeal to a wide variety of personal preferences regarding haircuts - they can be as intricate or as simple as the owner chooses, whereas a dachshund or a labrador or a chesapeake bay retriever (for example), what you see is what you get!

Barb


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

So you see, you are also agreeing that it's a matter of personal preference. And if it's just a matter of personal preference and has nothing to do with a dog's quality, why not allow more variety in the clips that are allowed on show dogs?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Beach girl said:


> So you see, you are also agreeing that it's a matter of personal preference. And if it's just a matter of personal preference and has nothing to do with a dog's quality, why not allow more variety in the clips that are allowed on show dogs?





plumcrazy said:


> I agree that it would be nice to have more choice when showing for those who don't want the upkeep of the patterned clips - but that being said, if I were showing, my CHOICE would BE the continental clip!  JMHO!


Exactly!


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## Karma'sACat (Jun 1, 2010)

I always find the fact that people think it is normal and ok to reject a breed of dog solely on looks but it is considered horrendous to dismiss people because of their look.
I have to wonder if people have become so lazy that even in this world where the information is at their finger tips, they don't do *ANY* research to learn about the breed beyond that. Maybe it is a good thing that people who can't be bothered to do a simple search are dissuaded from the breed since they do require work, time and dedication...
I just don't understand being dissuaded by a HAIRCUT! Again, it comes back to doing research. Even the wikipedia pages ha pictures of poodles in kennel clips.

FTR, this isn't directed at anyone here. It is from my own experience that when I say I'm getting a poodle service dog, people talk about how they look. When asked what they know about poodles besides the superficial, they have nothing to say.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

I agree that dissing a dog because of a haircut is silly, but I admit to rejecting plenty of breeds of dogs because of their looks. I wouldn't want a Mexican hairless, for example, or any of the huge mastiff dogs, or bow-legged dogs like bulldogs. 

I like poodles definitely in part because of their elegant look - in whatever haircut they happen to be. I love their intelligent eyes, elegantly beautiful faces, bouncy, proud gait - yeah, fair to say I picked this breed at least in part for their looks. And their temperament. And their intelligence. And their non-shedding nature. And the wide choice of sizes. 

Well, there's just plenty to love about poodles. ;-)


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

i think that in this world where we have hundreds of breeds- sure go with something who's look you like. 

but that means the build of the dog. The type of coat. Not always the fancy hair cut it CAN have. 

personally i LOVE the continentals now. But it took me a while- but i much prefer a HCC then a show wigged up version. . .


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## jcwinks (Jun 26, 2010)

we have had people - friends and relatives actually - ask, "why'd you get a 
_poodle_?" and comment on the "silliness" of their haircuts. They also tend to think poodles are "wimpy" dogs. Grrrrrr!
I've always thought the breed was elegant - I didn't know though that they were great watchdogs. Our spoo is a rocking watch dog - she scares people a bit because she's big, black, and looks people right in the eyes. She's a great dog - and beautiful to boot!


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

My own husband at first thought poodles were ridiculous. But when I brought home that first puppy way back when, he went from "Ridiculous! Looks like a little black rat!" to "aw, so sweet!" in about 15 minutes. 

We had Bounder for 12 years, and after he died, the DH said "nothing but a poodle for the next one." And then it became the next ones, plural. 

I haven't convinced him to let me try putting Casey in a show clip, though. I would actually like to try it, but the DH says no.

However, he proudly wears a T-shirt with a poodle in a continental clip that says "The Dogfather." That might be as close as I can get to a show clip in our house. ;-)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Beach girl said:


> My own husband at first thought poodles were ridiculous. But when I brought home that first puppy way back when, he went from "Ridiculous! Looks like a little black rat!" to "aw, so sweet!" in about 15 minutes.


Likewise .... we brought Vasco home in a puppy clip, and my S.O. said he looked like a "monkey with a mullet". Only a couple of days to "MY monkey" though!

Someone else said it above ... I would be interested in breed if it weren't for the coat maintenance, but that put me off. Which is fine, as we'll do obedience and agility, and he'll excel, because he's a _soooper_-smart poodle!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I quite like the fact that people get turned off about the "look" of poodles.
I just think, if they don't take the time to look into the breed.. they mustn't be intelligent... therefore they shouldn't own a poodle! lol

What, I am trying to say, is that, in a way, the look of a poodle, almost protects the breed being owned by idiots... I am not saying this is the case in every example, but just in general... People who don't take the time to find out, probably aren't the best poodle owners anyway.. poodles need special care, and are more human than dog IMO ... and this trait needs to be recognized when owning a poodle.


And again, I would like to point out, that there is only so much you can hide in a continental, and that not all judges actually know what they should be looking for..

But this is the case in many many breeds, and we're not going to slag the whole show system... There are plenty of judges that put up the wrong choice in short coated breeds...

IMO.. it really does come down to the judge.

And besides, a crap dog is not going to do well in the ring, regardless of the clip...

If it can do well in the ring, it is going to be worth something.

You can't hide a bad head, bad movement, bad rear angulation, bad tail set etc.

and again, it comes down to the judge, to actually feel into the coat for a chest, the body of the dog etc.

and just one more point.

Poodles are a HIGH maintenance dog... I like the fact that poodles do require a lot of grooming for show... they are not the only breed BTW... there are *plenty* of other breeds too, OES, Afghan, lots of toy breeds have coat... etc.
A grooming in a standard does require dedication, and I would like to see that in a person showing and breeding standard poodles.

And besides, if you have an amazing dog, you can still show it in a HCC... It may take longer to do well, but again it comes down to the judges....

If your dog is good enough... you would be able to do well!!!

Sometimes, I think saying that there are lots of politics, and unfair judges, and grooming hiding things is just a cop out... sure it's there, I am not denying it

I am just saying that there are *two* sides.... and people are always focusing on the negative one, and they use it as an excuse.

Just my two cents


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I take your points, Jak, but wish there was the choice. In the UK the range of show clips is very limited. I cannot imagine keeping Poppy in a show clip AND letting her romp through muddy fields, splash in the river, roll in the sand, and do all the other things she enjoys. I am sure there are people out there who are sufficiently dedicated to manage it, even with a standard, but I am not! So I won't be showing, as it is less important to me than the other things. That means that I won't be breeding either - another nice dog lost to the gene pool. I believe trim should be owner's choice - and all trims should be accepted in the show ring. Same for other breeds, too!


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

jak said:


> I quite like the fact that people get turned off about the "look" of poodles.
> I just think, if they don't take the time to look into the breed.. they mustn't be intelligent... therefore they shouldn't own a poodle! lol
> 
> What, I am trying to say, is that, in a way, the look of a poodle, almost protects the breed being owned by idiots... I am not saying this is the case in every example, but just in general... People who don't take the time to find out, probably aren't the best poodle owners anyway.. poodles need special care, and are more human than dog IMO ... and this trait needs to be recognized when owning a poodle.
> ...


Thats exactly how I feel about it Jak
I mean look at the Maltese or the Bichon or even a Shih Tzu...how many of those walking down the street are in show clips? you can't judge a breed solely on its outward appearance ((that isn't even a natural outward appearance its scissored and sprayed to look like that...))

I say good riddance to the people who are put off by the show coat...unless said person runs out and buys a doodle -facepalm- :doh:

Though I will add that because of our doodle I was able to get my poodle, and am getting another next summer


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I agree with the poster who said for every person who is turned off by highly coiffed poodles, there is another person who is captivated. I for one find the continental stunning. Poodles are just so elegant in this clip. I hope to put my mini in a conti at some point. 

As for people who think poodles are silly--their loss! Poodles are special and should be owned by people who appreciate them.


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## Beach girl (Aug 5, 2010)

> I quite like the fact that people get turned off about the "look" of poodles.
> I just think, if they don't take the time to look into the breed.. they mustn't be intelligent... therefore they shouldn't own a poodle! lol


I agree with that part, and that was part of my point way back in this thread.



> I cannot imagine keeping Poppy in a show clip AND letting her romp through muddy fields, splash in the river, roll in the sand, and do all the other things she enjoys


. 

And THIS is the very important part. The point is, poodles were originally bred to be water retrievers. The fancy show coats are an exaggeration of the clips used to help the poodle retrieve birds from the marsh. 

So why not allow a sport/retriever type clip, a close-to-the-body athletic clip, for show dogs? Show the poodle as the athlete he was bred to be?

It's not about hiding anything from the judges by any means: it's showcasing what the poodle was originally bred for.

Does anyone here participate in field or retrieving trials? Are poodles allowed in whatever clip the owner wants for those things?


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

I know in NZ, any clip is technically "allowed", but the wording is "It is strongly recommended that the traditional lion clip be done"; it says NOTHING about the puppy clip etc etc like it used to, and it leaves it open to anyone not wanting to do a big continental trim. But anyone not doing the continental won't have a chance beside one that does.


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

Beach girl said:


> And THIS is the very important part. The point is, poodles were originally bred to be water retrievers. The fancy show coats are an exaggeration of the clips used to help the poodle retrieve birds from the marsh.
> 
> So why not allow a sport/retriever type clip, a close-to-the-body athletic clip, for show dogs? Show the poodle as the athlete he was bred to be?
> 
> ...


I have 2 spoos that are used as hunting retrievers. I clip them same length all over and no one cares what clip they have at trials. Given the burrs biting flies brambles, thorns I would never shave my dogs to the skin on any part of their bodies. After using my dogs in the field, I find it very unlikely that people without the benefit of antibiotics (100 yrs or so) would shave their dogs as close to the skin as in the HCC clip. The dogs would be prone to getting infections and dying from all the nicks and scrapes, that can happen daily especially in a cattail marsh with scummy water. The only benefit I see in that cut is that the dogs will bring a lot less water into the boat when they shake after a swim. Anything over an inch of hair is like taking a shower all over again! LOL! Just my 2 cents.


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