# Dogs & PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder)



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

McStargazer2 said:


> I am very aware that service dogs working in war zones have returned and retired do to stress related problems. Though I don't think it's an official diagnosis, I've read several journal articles relating the stress and symptoms they suffer to that of humans with similar experiences=PTSD.
> 
> PTSD in humans isn't always caused by "war" but more often a trauma, perceived or actual. (My understanding only. I am not a trained medical health professional.) Children I have taught in a Special Ed. setting have been dx with PTSD as a co-diagnoses due to mal-treatment, abuse, neglect in their childhood.
> 
> ...


That is very interesting what you wrote about PTSD in dogs. It certainly is very possible. As far as this growling in the sleep behavior, Maurice, one of my puppies does this. The waking you describe where he doesn't seem to be quite cognitive, I would check first with a vet, making sure there's no seizure activity in the brain...make sure there's nothing medical going on. And then go from there, investigating the behavior possibilities. You might do well to enlist a board certified behaviorist, not just a trainer to evaluate him. Take some videos of this if you can.

Don't worry about comforting or responding to him when he's this way. You can not reinforce fear. He's not likely thinking about his "behavior." He's simply _feeling_ a certain way. In a case like this, I would definitely talk softly, not "firmly" to soothe him and help him out of this dream state, if that's what it is or anxious feeling. Gentle him along. Another thing you can try is to hold a wooden spoon with a long handle that has some peanut butter on it down near his nose. When he's appearing to be agitated while sleeping or you think he's walking up, the first thing he'll know is the smell of peanut butter. It will be a rewarding and nice thing to wake up to and might help to reduce his fears that he's some how associated with something else. Again, a certified behaviorist might be an enormous help after seeing a vet. Remember, these behaviors are born out of a feeling of fear and you want to tread lightly.

Let us know how things go.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Usually with dogs if they have a sudden change in personality we have them medically cleared. Since you don't know if this is how he has been forever or is something that started later, I would have him checked my a vet. I would check his liver enzymes, kidney function and thyroid. After that, if all checks out, I would see a behaviorist...not a trainer...a certified behaviorist. Good luck, I am glad you found each other!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Another thing you can try is to hold a wooden spoon with a long handle that has some peanut butter on it down near his nose. When he's appearing to be agitated while sleeping or you think he's walking up, the first thing he'll know is the smell of peanut butter. ............., these behaviors are born out of a feeling of fear and you want to tread lightly.
> 
> Let us know how things go.


Oh my gosh. That's a great idea. He isn't treat oriented or I just haven't found the right thing yet. My family did the peanut butter as a treat so I tried that to get him to use a Kong & a Nylabone. I KNOW he loves Peanut Butter. Oddly, it happens at the same part of the day (according to my notes)... I've even thought about waking him before it happens...when he is beginning to growl. 

I captured it on video once and another thing he does.... When crated he takes the top of his head and rubs it on the pad. (He was not crated in the family that surrendered him nor in rescue.) I understand that when he growled, they let him alone and the growling behavior wasn't addressed. 

As for paper guarding...it happened once here when I dropped a napkin and didn't realize it. When I saw him chewing it...I said "No" and he growled, tried to hide it. "Drop it" didn't phase him but I wasn't going to grab it either...I redirected with a nylabone which he looked at me as if I were crazy. He retreated. He wouldn't take the Nylabone until I put a dab of PB on it. It seems to have worked so far! He has chew toys and will walk by a paper and not eat it/ guard it. (But I still watch him.)

THANKS AGAIN:adore:


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

He has been to a vet within the first 72 hours. Now I go back and tell him about the symptoms?...please don't tell me there are dog neurologist that I will have to find to have him looked at. How will they know if it's a "seizure"?

I have contacted a behaviorist who will meet me at the house to see him in his own setting. I guess It's back to the vet this Tuesday and then I'll check in with the dog behaviorist. 

Thank you.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

McStargazer2 said:


> Oh my gosh. That's a great idea. He isn't treat oriented or I just haven't found the right thing yet. My family did the peanut butter as a treat so I tried that to get him to use a Kong & a Nylabone. I KNOW he loves Peanut Butter. Oddly, it happens at the same part of the day (according to my notes)... I've even thought about waking him before it happens...when he is beginning to growl.
> 
> I captured it on video once and another thing he does.... When crated he takes the top of his head and rubs it on the pad. (He was not crated in the family that surrendered him nor in rescue.) I understand that when he growled, they let him alone and the growling behavior wasn't addressed.
> 
> ...


How was he taught to "drop it?" That's important.

If you use methods which involve force, compulsion, punishment, you risk this guarding to escalate. Old school was show 'em whose boss. Be the alpha of your pack. All this has proven to cause a lot of aggression issues. It is perfectly natural and evolutionarily advantageous to keep others away from your stuff.

That said, later, when I have some more time, I'll dig up some neat links for you with some alternative and better ways to teach your pup that your taking things is really a terrific thing... great things happen. He'll be saying, "come take my bone, bring your check book." lol. We need to get it out of our heads that because we're another species, dogs "should" do it out of love or because we're "superior." That's been the way for a lot of decades and trust me, there are much better ways.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

I don't know how Beau learned "drop it". 
He also knows "leave it". from my observation... While out walking, a used by kleenex on a sidewalk will be a minor distraction. When he started to go sniff it I just said "leave it" and he kept going. (It was once of those moments that I wanted to jump up and down but didn't.) 
He also goes potty when we go out & he's told to "go potty" Somewhere somebody worked with him and then it just stopped. The elderly couple that he owned one developed Alzheimers & the other major heart probs...I believe.

Heck I didn't know he sat until I decided I'd try canned dog food to see if that would be high reward (YES!) I said "sit" using the hand signal we always used when I was growing up with dogs & it was automatic. The foster mom told me I would be teaching him everything new. 

I would love to have more reading material to help me understand how best to help me help him.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

When you say he is doing that with his head, in reinforces my thoughts on checking his liver levels. Symptoms of hepatic encephalopathy include head pressing, disorientation, aggression and seizures as well as others, each dog is different. It is probably NOT this but just shows you want to rule it out. When Misha was having problems the only sign she showed was intermittent vomiting and lack of appetite.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I agree Mischief. When my Lab had liver disease, she started having seizures (but obvious, grand mal or petit mal. There are all kinds of seizures, some very subtle) and they will exhibit weird behavior when they are finished with an episode...(post ictal stage) So, if you tell the vet everything you're seeing, describing it as best you can, he'll know what tests to run. I hope it's nothing serious. It might not be. Like I said, my little puppy seems to have weird dreams or something that makes him grrrrrr and make weird noises in his sleep....not super angry growl, but a little as though he's dreaming Matisse is taking his bone. lol. It's the same sound he makes when he's awake and has something he loves and another dog is anywhere close. Keep us posted. And lots of positive vibes coming your way.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Blog

There's a good article about resource guarding.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Video what you are seeing and take it to the Vet with you...dogs do get PTSD but this does not sound like what you are seeing. Rescued dogs almost always take a year or more to relax and become the wonderful soul that they really are.

It is a great idea to celebrate with Beau when he does something that you like! So don't hold back your praise and joy when you are excited . 

You are doing all the right things for him. Please keep us posted.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

pandj said:


> It is a great idea to celebrate with Beau when he does something that you like! So don't hold back your praise and joy when you are excited .
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thankfully I was raised with parents who always used positive reinforcements with dogs. I moved Vet appointment to first thing tomorrow and labs from other Vets were supposed to have been faxed.

He is learning about dog toys. At first the rope & tennis ball would scare him and he would drop to the ground like everything else in the world. I refuse to yank on a harness/leash since I wouldn't want anyone to yank my neck and force me to do things while I'm shaking in fear. I sit down with him and wait on the ground/floor with him. 

When he has done the growl thing in the first couple of days, I would stand up & walk into my bedroom and close the door. He would sit by the door waiting for my return. Just walked back into room as if nothing happened and waited for him to initiate if he wanted. 

He used to cower and run to his "bed" when I would take off my shoes. That tells me something. 

I will give him longer than a year to be comfortable with me. Luckily, since the day before I got him, I have been on a "stay-cation". 

Thanks for all the advice.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

I have no medical advice for you, but did want to say what an awesome job I think you are doing with this dog. He is so lucky to have such a loving caring owner - bless you


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Manxcat, I wholeheartedly agree!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Full of positivity....Had to laugh surfing the site that one trainer was on the floor giving the dog treats when it reached a calm state...Maybe I did listen to that Psych 101 & classical conditioning in college. (My parents will be happy to hear it!)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

it seems there are degrees of ptsd, and i'm not convinced it isn't ptsd if he was in a home where shoes probably got thrown at him and there were a lot of confusing signals coming from two ill owners. whether it is or not, though, you seem to be doing a great job with him. keep up the good work! 

let us know how the vet visits go. i hope your vets are not stodgy curmudgeons who are going to tell you your dog growling means he is trying to dominate you, etc., etc. i have been pretty surprised by what some pf members have reported their vets saying about all kinds of things, not just behavior. i usually trust a medical diagnosis based on test results, but knowing what to look for is a skill in itself. so a skeptical mind is a good thing to have.


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

patk said:


> let us know how the vet visits go. i hope your vets are not stodgy curmudgeons who are going to tell you your dog growling means he is trying to dominate you, etc., etc.
> 
> i usually trust a medical diagnosis based on test results, but knowing what to look for is a skill in itself. so a skeptical mind is a good thing to have.


Thank you. This forum certainly practices what it preaches in that everyone who has commented ...pretty positive about what I'm doing with Beauregard!!

I took him to a vet for for a "check up" and he never growled or nipped at the Vet who pretty much called the assistant back in after what I reported to him. LOL I had them check his ears and his privates. They put a soft muzzle on him to express his anal glands. Good grief....stinky! I wanted to make sure the poodle wasn't growling when approached or touched if he had an ear infection or infected anal glands. 

After getting the privates expressed SUDDENLY I was looking pretty good in his eyes and he leaped into my arms. The first time I got to "hold" him with his permission!!! 

He only does the growling during his sleep. and now that he has learned about fetching the rope he goes at but it's the I'm enjoying this growl lets do it some more. (I limit his play with it since he tends to be puppy mouthy after a few minutes)

Tomorrow I will know more. The vet I will be seeing tomorrow is one I interviewed ...plus he works with lab rescues in the area! 

His behavior and trust has only gotten better!!!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

...working with lab rescue and his giving back to his own profession impressed me!!


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Just another voice here wanting to give you a big cyber hug for giving of yourself and your compassion for a Spoo who needs you! I know, no matter what the Vet's DX is, you are going to give him a wonderful life!!!!! Keep us posted on your progress because everything you share, good or bad, is a learning experience for someone!!!


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

Thinking of what this poor puppy must have gone through with his original owners makes me want to cry. He is so fortunate to have such a wonderful human mom now. Please keep us posted on how he is doing.


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## AleKaiRowdie (Mar 25, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Resource Guarding | Ahimsa Dog Blog
> 
> There's a good article about resource guarding.


I love Ahimsa! I have an Ahimsa Bear! So sad she passed away. My tiny dog has food issues-he hoards it. Hides it everywhere. And he will sound like he's gonna kill you if you come between him and his "puppy chow".


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## laura1960 (Feb 23, 2014)

I'll add my voice to the chorus of folks commenting on what a lucky dog Beau is to have you as his "mom." Adopting a rescue dog (I have one too) is a frustrating, but oh-so-rewarding experience. In many cases, it's a three steps ahead, two steps back kind of process. Keep the faith and patience and keep plugging away!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

RESULTS are in:

After listening to my concerns & showing the video of the head rubbing: I was questioned about everything I was doing, triggers I noticed, etc. 

A complete blood count was given checking thyroid, liver, kidneys & pancreas. Urine & poop samples taken too. 

*GOOD NEWS!!!!* Everything returned negative. He also asked about diet / change in his diet...known allergies... When I went back to the results and asked point blank "so it's not seizures or liver disease?" he chuckled and asked "who I was talking to." -- "Concerned friends that I will neither confirm nor deny!!" 

In the video, he said that Beauregard could be "marking" the crate or dealing with his stress and anxiety of a new living situation with structure. 

Since Beau rubs the top of his head only on the crate's pad and only during the day time crate training I have to do the following: wash & dry crate pad & set aside. Observe if behavior is done on crate's pan/tray. (Beau sleeps in the crate through the night after 30 seconds of whining he lies down & goes to sleep.) Start crate training over. Observe / document and call him every two days.

If any other aggression occurs like what was reported or happened the first 2-3 days call IMMEDIATELY. 

Continue with long walks, playing with toys, chew toys are good to redirect playfulness/ mouthing after walks etc. DON"T OVERSTIMULATE DOG since everything is still new and considering he was surrendered, rescued and adopted. Don't worry about treats if he likes belly rubs that is a treat. 

Ignore negative behavior, reward behavior I want with positive reinforcement.

Recommended Plucking ears at next grooming, continue deep massages because dog likes it and it helps with his being held by others i.e. groomer, vet etc. 

PTSD isn't something he typically diagnoses but since the labs rule out medical, startle, fear etc to loud noises and the unknown (or shoes) will take time and consistency. Formal Obedience school could wait until the Fall perhaps when Beau is better adjusted to outside noises and everyday "city life." 

THANK YOU to each of you who responded & for the cyber hugs too!!!! Belly rubs and hugs are a good thing. LOL

This poodle mother is one relieved happy camper!!! It was well worth the concern, time, and frankly the vet visit as once again I am the "good guy". He does not like having doctors exam the rear end. (who does?)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sounds like good news all around, really. and your vet sounds like a good guy. so congrats on that, too.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

McStargazer2 said:


> This poodle mother is one relieved happy camper!!! It was well worth the concern, time, and frankly the vet visit as once again I am the "good guy". He does not like having doctors exam the rear end. (who does?)


You are a wise and wonderful poodle mom! Glad the vet appointment went so well. :thumb: This blog might be of some help to you along the way. :clover: Fearfuldogs' Blog | Positive help for fearful dogs


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Good News! Your Vet sounds well informed on positive reinforcement too! That is REALLY good! Let us know how you are doing along the way too!!! Good Luck!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

That is wonderful news ! I am so glad to hear that he is healthy. I am very impressed with your Vet. Sounds like you and Beau are well on your way . 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Wonderful news!!!!!!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

Chagall's mom said:


> This blog might be of some help to you along the way. Fearfuldogs' Blog | Positive help for fearful dogs


Very good article..:whoo:. This is how I feel my students with special needs are saying with their behavior...as well as my Beauregard! 

_When a dog performs a fearful or aggressive behavior it’s as though they are saying, “I don’t have the skills to behave in any other way in this situation.” _

I have to teach him new skills to replace those old ones that "aren't working for him" so he can enjoy the fun in the pool that is life!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

You sound like someone I would want to work with my autistic grand daughter! So hard to find someone who can understand how her mind works!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

N2Mischief said:


> You sound like someone I would want to work with my autistic grand daughter!:angel: So hard to find someone who can understand how her mind works!



Working with children having PDD or on the "autism scale" is my specialty and first love! Did I tell you all that .... how did you know?;o LOL


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

IF I ever get to CA I will come visit. I hear it is much like my native home of Miami, FL in many parts!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

That would be awesome! She is going to be 3 next month and we have her first IEP on the 30th, I am so nervous! She has NO language...she says, "mama" and sometimes seems to know what it means, and the other day said, "owie" when her arm hurt but not since. Other than that, nothing. No receptive either. I am so scared of her going to school, she wouldn't be able to tell me if something happened.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I have a poodle mix- her name is Lily. She had a lot of the same issues your dog has. I adopted her 3 years ago and she was a stray from an inner city shelter...so no history other than that the shelter was going to put her to sleep because of food aggression. I understand it was quite a show she put up at the shelter....which doesn't surprise me,as Lily does nothing halfway! A rescue pulled her and started working on her issues and I continued the training. I hand fed her for a few weeks and worked on the resource guarding by offering a really good treat in exchange for giving up what she was guarding. She came along very nicely with that. I can take a raw bone out of her mouth now and she gives it willingly.

She also had what I called PTSD. If woken up suddenly she would jump up ready to do battle...growling and sputtering, but it would only last a few seconds and you could almost see her assessing her surroundings and then settling down. That lasted about a month. I can only imagine how she had to fight to survive as a small stray. 

So- she got a lot better in the first few weeks, but it took about a year for her to fully relax, and that's a pretty consistent story with many rescues from what I understand. Then her personality truly emerged- and what a personality! She just sparkles- so smart, lively....and we just laugh at her antics. She has a very typical poodle personality. She now goes to doggy day care, agility classes, and has become very comfortable and even outgoing with strangers. Once you establish the trust, the rest comes right along:clap:

I also echo the other folks sentiments- you are doing a wonderful thing, and it is so worthwhile. I'm offering Lily's story as encouragement to hang in there! I've been reading this forum for quite a while now, but hadn't felt the need to create an account until tonight when I read your post. I wish you much luck with Beauregard- and also empathy for the uncertainty you probably feel about what to do at times. Just keep loving him, the rest falls into place


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

*There is hope!!! Thank you!*



Carolinek said:


> She also had what I called PTSD. If woken up suddenly she would jump up ready to do battle...growling and sputtering, but it would only last a few seconds and you could almost see her assessing her surroundings and then settling down. That lasted about a month. I can only imagine how she had to fight to survive as a small stray.
> 
> THIS is exactly what he does. In the middle of the night he will spring to his feet growling as if he's ready to go down fighting. At night he is crated and recovers faster when it happens during the day. When he is out of the crate, the growling will begin, then he springs to the stand position and it's as if an invisible dog is in front of him. He will bark, run (escape?) and that's when I call his name Beauregard....instead of Beau. (He was called Beau previously.) In the beginning it was awful to see. Now, it seems as if when he hears his name that I've given him, he shakes his head as if to say...whoa!! That was a Bad Dream. Now he will come over for a pet & flip for a belly rub.
> 
> ...


 I'm counting on this!! Thanks again.


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## Manxcat (May 6, 2013)

Bit late coming back to this thread, but just wanted to say "GREAT NEWS" that there is nothing physically wrong, and you so obviously have the tools to be an immense help to this dog with his mental difficulties.

Such a wonderfully uplifting story - please keep us updated on Beauregard's progress!!

I'm sure it won't be long before you have a happy, well-adjusted, mischievous poodle


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I was so struck by how similar Beau's story was to Lily's. I had never heard anyone else describe the PTSD before like you did and it was exactly what Lily did! Maybe the two of them have some of the same genetic makeup-who knows?

Although these behaviors are tough, I think it's actually easier to rehab a dog that is acting out vs the dog that just cowers and shivers in the corner. Whereas Lily's behavior (and Beau too it sounds like!) gives you something to work with. I foster dogs for a local rescue group and it seems like the dogs that completely withdraw take so much longer to reach. They are quieter and more socially palatable than my little 13lb ball of fury though! But Lily never bit anyone, it was all just a lot of noise and drama !:drama: 


The resource guarding-I still have to manage it at times. I brought Lily to my son's house the other day and she promptly found his dog's chew toy and started her Cujo Act. So, I took it away and life went on. I think the key is to get them to a point where they will give whatever up willingly, and then it's very manageable. 


You are doing such a wonderful thing for Beau and it sounds like this very lucky guy wound up in a place where he will be understood, and finally nurtured so he can become the dog he was meant to be. Many kudos to you and I look forward to reading about Beau's progress :cheers2:


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

You are not late! Thanks ManxCat!

Trust me when I say all I want is a mischievious little poodle. 

My first year of teaching I taught Kindergarten.... After they were "trained" in the first month, we started the tradition of coloring lots of flamingos and taping them all over the 8th grades classroom. Plus pink tissue paper. The eight graders learned it was coming after the 2nd year it happened by the 3rd year kindergarten parents wanted in on it. WHAT fun! It was a Private Catholic School (yes I was in the convent when I did this!) where children in Kinder are the "Diploma Bears / Bearers for the 8th graders. The 8th graders welcome their Kinder Pal at the beginning of the year, have lunch together 2x/month. Special Activity (movie) 1x/month etc. Etc. IM ALWAYS UP TO MISCHIEF!


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## McStargazer2 (Mar 12, 2014)

*Thanks! There is hope...*



Carolinek said:


> I was so struck by how similar Beau's story was to Lily's. I had never heard anyone else describe the PTSD before like you did and it was exactly what Lily did! Maybe the two of them have some of the same genetic makeup-who knows?
> I think so too!
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your words of encouragement.:angel2: I need and needed it. I am going to start a new post to say why.


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