# Cesar Millan training methods <long>



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Okay, I'm really, really, really not trying to start a flame war here. Given some recent threads, I just want to say up front that I am not the Training Method Police, if someone wants to train a dog with CM methods, that's his/her business. 

But I would really like to understand WHY he's appealing.

Thanks to the powers of the Internet & Android (and a long commute), I get through a truckload of dog information, opinion, news, etc. that is delivered up everyday. Different views, different methods, new research, all input to my training philosophy (which is a self-congratulatory way to describe my "steal, steal, steal" approach to training :smile.

Recently, I saw an opinion piece that seemed to be suggesting that Cesar Millan is incorporating more modern, i.e. reward-based, methods into his training. 

Thinks me: "Great! I'll have to revisit. May be something I can learn from this guy."

So, moping at home with a bug, I sit down to watch his programme on television last night. Worth a try, right? 

This is the episode that was on last night.

An Aggressive Pit Bull and a Nail-Trimming Terror Dachshund | www.cesarsway.com

I was horrified.

I missed most of the segment with the first dog. In the second half of the programme, he is working with a very cute crossbred dachshund. The owners say up front that they are big CM fans and have raised/trained both their dogs according to his methods.

Side note: I saw no evidence of ANY training having been done with either of their two dogs. Granted, the show cherrypicks what it shows, but even so ... 

So the dog has a problem. Extremely fearful, and a biter. What looks to be an extremely low threshold. They never say how bad the actual bites are, but both owners have been bitten, the dog is fear-aggressive with other dogs, he's food-aggressive, he's barky and aggressive when people come to the door, and particularly snarly and bitey when the owners want to clip the dog's nails, which is why Cesar has ridden to the rescue.

Much footage shown of the dog in aggressive, snarly mode, and he looks like the most terrified, panic-stricken dog you've ever seen. It looks as if he's never had anyone attempt to help him, he resorts to the only thing he knows, and is incredibly stressed by his life. Repeated stress & fear signs, i.e. lip-licking, retracted lips, ears back, tail down, whale eyes, hunched posture. As far as I can tell, this poor guy has never had any help from his owners in learning to deal with the world.

In steps Cesar Millan, with some words about the power of the holy pack. He uses some body language to keep the dog away from the door, pokes him a couple of times. Okay, I'm not seeing anything positive or reward-based yet. And jeez, does this poor dog look like he needs it. 

Then he takes the dog out roller blading to destress him through exercise before they work with him. Okay, fine, television needs some visuals. 

Onto the 'training' portion of the segment. They do some "pack" work, bringing in Cesar's dogs. The dog attacks, then tries to hide under a table. Cesar closes off all avenues of escape, the dog appears to shut down. This is labeled as calm. Lots of fear body language in the dog again. Once again, no one is HELPING this dog. He's having a very bad time, he doesn't understand what's happening, he's terrified, and no one is helping him.

Next scene, the dog is muzzled, and Cesar and the owner are going to clip its nails. Both on the floor with the dog, Cesar is physically restraining the frantically struggling dog, who is trying with everything he can to bite, get away, escape. Eyes rolling wildly. This goes on (I sh*t you not, they post the time elapsed) for 45 minutes before they can get a nail clipped. The whole time, the dog is physically pinned the the floor. He never stops trying to escape, absolutely panic-stricken the whole time. At one point, he pauses in his struggles for a second, Cesar points to this as a sign of success, the dog is now entering a 'calm submissive state', at which point the dog renews his struggles. It was heartbreaking to watch. Utterly heartbreaking. It gave me high blood pressure.

The woman owner is helping through all this, totally bought into torturing her own dog. The man says later that he couldn't assist, as he was too upset by watching the dog's panicked struggles.

Why would someone let this be done to their dog? Why wouldn't the man step in and say "hey, enough, the dog is terrified"? Why would the woman assist in giving her dog what must have been one of the most traumatic experiences of his life?

I can't fathom it, I really really can't. I know I bash this man's methods, but honestly, is there ANY way to defend this treatment of a terrified dog? I would love to understand what people find appealing about his methods. It just looks like abuse to me. I wasn't cherrypicking episodes; that just happened to be the one that was on last night.

In the part at the end where they revisit the dog/owners, the woman thanks Cesar (shot of her rollerblading with the dog), says the dog is much improved, and they are still working on the nail clipping. Yeah, I'll just bet they are. 

Anyone? I know he has lots of fans; how do you watch this sort of treatment? This was not a dog that was going to be euthanised; the owners said at the beginning that that were committed to "fixing" the dog.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree entirely - I read the review by a leading animal behaviourist that the TV company commissioned before the show was first aired. He said CM's methods were overly aggressive, unfounded in scientific theory and current dog training practice, and risked setting the field of dog training back 20 years. And still they broadcast it, with exactly the results predicted. There is a briliant Sophia Yin video showing her with a fearful terrier that hated having its nails clipped - and how 10 minutes calm work with treats had the dog ignoring the clipping while seeking the next treat. 'Nuff said?

ETA Actually, it was 4 minutes! http://drsophiayin.com/resources/video_full/training_a_dog_to_enjoy_toenail_trims


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

You're wading into dangerous territory here, I know from past experience there's some very enthusiastic Cesar Milan fans on this forum!

I feel the same as you, watching his show makes me feel sick and nervous. I actively avoid anything to do with him or his brand.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

I agree - this is probably dangerous territory, but I am with you. I can't stand to see what he does to dogs to "train" them - it's intimidation and fear. I have watched a few episodes (thinking... give him a second chance - maybe the last episode was just not good), but avoid watching him at all costs.


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## Jessie's Mom (Mar 23, 2010)

ok, hoping we can keep this on a strictly cerebral level, i would like to comment. first, i'm not necessarily a die hard fan of CM or Victoria. i'm a fan for whatever works for my dog. i do watch his show and i watch victoria, also. i do pick and choose what makes sense to me. some of the psychology has helped me deal with certain issues that jessie has. some of the reasoning behind what he does is interesting to listen to. the cases they air are very extreme. i dvr them then pick and choose which may have some merit in watching. 

i also cannot watch some of the episodes because of what he does to "calm" the dog. HOWEVER, what irks me more this: the owner has problems with the dog's behavior but takes no blame for what the dog's problem(s) are. what about retraining the owner?? he claims he addresses those issues, and in many instances he does. i learn more from that part of his show than i learn from his actual work with the dogs. i worked for a vet many years ago who always said "the virtues of a dog are his own, the vices are those of his master". pitbulls come to mind immediately. 

so i am not defending him, but i am saying that i do watch with an open mind and always try to find some tips that i could use. after all, it is television.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'm not sure whos method it is...but we treat a boatload at my house XD...

But on a side note >.> the episode of south park where Cartmans mom brings in CM is HANDS DOWN one of my favourite XD


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

People will obey those they perceive as a leader or authority (google Milgram experiment if you're not already familiar with it) and unfortunately it is Milan who has been bestowed with the Mantle of Authority granted by the venerable National Geographic channel. Who can even think about those wonderful old yellow spines without practically saluting in respect to that organization's professionalism and the implied veracity of what they say? It's very unfortunate that the National Geographic Channel chose to disregard the dog expert they had review the show. 

Then there's the fact that people don't know any better. Then there's the fact that Milan's methods are more "exciting" and "dramatic," more immediate, than more positive methods. I do think Stilwell's show with its positive methods makes for fine TV, but it's usually not as "dramatic" as a 45 minute wrestling match with a small, frightened dog, right?

Then there's the fact that, since people can't tell a temporary suppression of behavior from a cure, Milan's methods sometimes seem to "work." At least in the context of an hour long show. How about an update show? This is the reason that punishment itself is so appealing: Dog's pulling, jerk his neck, dog stops pulling. Voila! It works! Only now I have a victim I intimidated through physical prowess, not a companion who walks *with* me. 

I'm sure it doesn't help that Milan isn't 100% wrong about everything--he makes some good points about exercise, for instance, which is something I think most dog owners neglect--or that he's a personable and charismatic person. 

And so it goes. I wish people were able to see through him, but I have my doubts about it happening. 

--Q


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

I think I will jump into the fray on this one.
I admit I used to be an avid watcher of Cesar Milan....until I tried to use some of his techniques and they were less than useless.

For example. One of my girls is a squirrel crazy nut, she sees a squirrel she is up on two legs, singing and dancing a song of pure joy. I followed CM's advice of re-directing her attention. Basically he said to change their mind set from what is currently getting their attention to something else.

He demonstrated walking the dog on the right side of himself and using his left leg and foot to kick behind and get the dogs haunches....basically this method is to get the dog thinking?....hey what just knocked into me? and forget whatever had their attention.

I wanted to use it for squirrel hyperactivity, but on the show he demonstrated it when passing another dog and the subject dog got a bit wound up.

Long story short......IT DOES NOT WORK. She would look behind at her haunches and then launch full out into her squirrel song and dance again. She eventually figured out that a squirrel song and dance meant a kick so she moved out of reach of the kicker.

Another thing about CM that BUGS me is that in Canada he has launched a whole line of dog products...grooming, beds, toys etc. Get real...most of his dogs live in a huge concrete, fenced compound...how did he get the expertise to launch such a line?


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> I'm not sure whos method it is...but we treat a boatload at my house XD...
> 
> But on a side note >.> the episode of south park where Cartmans mom brings in CM is HANDS DOWN one of my favourite XD


Oh lord, that episode of South Park (which I almost never watch -- really!) was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. I literally had tears streaming down my face.

Here's a clip from YouTube. Quality is poor, but it gives you an idea. Hope this works:


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## CurlyDog (Aug 20, 2008)

I think it's hard for the average pet owner to listen to their "that doesn't feel right" meter when listening to "an authority". So many of us grew up with the "rub their nose in it" school of dog training. Is still have nightmares of my parents disciplining the dog. He is right about the exercise thing though. I'll agree that a tired dog is a better behaved dog. 

Maybe someone can convince him to use the motto: exercise, cooperation, affection! (not necessarily in that order!)


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

truelovepoodles said:


> (Snip...)
> 
> Another thing about CM that BUGS me is that in Canada *he has launched a whole line of dog products...grooming, beds, toys etc. *Get real...most of his dogs live in a huge concrete, fenced compound...how did he get the expertise to launch such a line?


We have those here too--carried by PetCo! Way overpriced.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Rowan said:


> We have those here too--carried by PetCo! Way overpriced.



I saw those the other day and just about gagged.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

At the risk of losing all credibility, i have to thank cesar for making me a better groomer. 

I was raised in a cats-only household and taught that dogs were dirty, humping creatures whose main goal in life was to pee on carpet or smell your personal areas. Really! I never had a dog til a year after being hired at PetSmart, and i took the bather job because i was told i could earn $65,000 a year someday as a groomer.

Needless to say, i was a joke. Terrified of dogs, petrified of 'angering' them with the blow dryer, and genuinely worthless. I thank God every day for my manager's patience, i would have NEVER put up with me!

I struggled with most dogs. I'd sweat bullets through nail trims, stand arms-length from anything that looked at me funny, and took forever to complete my dogs. I didnt understand why my dogs were so bad for me... then read Cesar's first book, watched a few shows, and discovered that my high-pitched squealing, baby-voiced admonishments, and general push-over personality were causing the misbehavior. I lowered my voice by several octaves, began speaking with authority instead of emotion (excitement, frustration, impatience), and employed a no-touch, no-talk, no-eye contact method of greeting nervous dogs... sitting outside their kennel patiently til they came to me.

I gained confidence by forcing myself to project confidence i didn't yet feel. I also learned that dogs aren't people. And i learned that slow-going introductions are invaluable keys to success. 

some of his most contravercial training methods are used on the most out of control dogs. Personally, I dont feel comfortable employing his methods when i get an evil little tooth demon on the table. If using a calm, gentle, yet firm approach doesn't work, i require weekly bath and brushes at a greatly discounted rate until the dog is able to be safely groomed. I call the program Rehab and have brought many unsocialized pups and dogs around within weeks. If an owner refuses Rehab, i refuse the dog. I wont traumatize an unsocialized dog who stresses out during the yearly shavedown and i refuse to be bit needlessly.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Jessie's Mom said:


> ok, hoping we can keep this on a strictly cerebral level, i would like to comment. first, i'm not necessarily a die hard fan of CM or Victoria. i'm a fan for whatever works for my dog. i do watch his show and i watch victoria, also. i do pick and choose what makes sense to me. some of the psychology has helped me deal with certain issues that jessie has. some of the reasoning behind what he does is interesting to listen to. the cases they air are very extreme. i dvr them then pick and choose which may have some merit in watching.
> 
> i also cannot watch some of the episodes because of what he does to "calm" the dog. HOWEVER, what irks me more this: the owner has problems with the dog's behavior but takes no blame for what the dog's problem(s) are. what about retraining the owner?? he claims he addresses those issues, and in many instances he does. i learn more from that part of his show than i learn from his actual work with the dogs. i worked for a vet many years ago who always said "the virtues of a dog are his own, the vices are those of his master". pitbulls come to mind immediately.
> 
> so i am not defending him, but i am saying that i do watch with an open mind and always try to find some tips that i could use. after all, it is television.


Thanks, Jessie's Mom, that's what I was after.

I like the virtue/vice quote ... puts responsibility squarely where it belongs. That is one of the things I like about Victoria Stilwell; she is quick to rip a new one for irresponsible owners.

I can see that some of the things that CM recommends are good advice for any dog owner, i.e. plenty of exercise, set boundaries, work on behaviours you don't like (not that he invented these, but good on him for recommending). I suspect, however, that the common sense advice is drowned out by the dramatic physical interactions with the dogs. It feels dangerous to me, that for an undiscriminating owner who doesn't look for training information from other sources, the pin downs and the stringing up would look like justifiable ways to treat one's own dog.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

fjm said:


> I agree entirely - I read the review by a leading animal behaviourist that the TV company commissioned before the show was first aired. He said CM's methods were overly aggressive, unfounded in scientific theory and current dog training practice, and risked setting the field of dog training back 20 years. And still they broadcast it, with exactly the results predicted. There is a briliant Sophia Yin video showing her with a fearful terrier that hated having its nails clipped - and how 10 minutes calm work with treats had the dog ignoring the clipping while seeking the next treat. 'Nuff said?
> 
> ETA Actually, it was 4 minutes! Dog Nail Trim | Videos | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


FANTASTIC! I'd forgotten about that; saw it ages ago. Absolutely spot on. I love the point where the dog is saying "yeah, yeah, nails, whatever, where's my chicken????"


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Quossum said:


> Then there's the fact that, since people can't tell a temporary suppression of behavior from a cure, Milan's methods sometimes seem to "work." At least in the context of an hour long show. How about an update show? This is the reason that punishment itself is so appealing: Dog's pulling, jerk his neck, dog stops pulling. Voila! It works! Only now I have a victim I intimidated through physical prowess, not a companion who walks *with* me.
> 
> I'm sure it doesn't help that Milan isn't 100% wrong about everything--he makes some good points about exercise, for instance, which is something I think most dog owners neglect--or that he's a personable and charismatic person.
> 
> ...


Yes, I think so too. I can't help thinking as well that there must be something gratifying on some level about being able to control another creature through force. Perhaps it serves as an outlet for frustration in other areas of life to be able to come home and teach the dog who's boss. And seeing an immediate result through short-term suppression would further reward the use of rough training methods. 

I do think that if my dog ever looked at me the way I saw the poor dog on that programme looked at his owners, the mute appeal to make it stop, I'd jump off a building.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

truelovepoodles said:


> I think I will jump into the fray on this one.
> I admit I used to be an avid watcher of Cesar Milan....until I tried to use some of his techniques and they were less than useless.
> 
> For example. One of my girls is a squirrel crazy nut, she sees a squirrel she is up on two legs, singing and dancing a song of pure joy. I followed CM's advice of re-directing her attention. Basically he said to change their mind set from what is currently getting their attention to something else.
> ...


Thanks, truelovepoodles. 

I don't watch CM very ofter (like Cdnjennga, it makes me feel a bit ill), but it is obvious that he himself has very good dog skills and superb timing. I would imagine that it would be difficult to separate what might be effective about his methods from the effect that is due to his ability to read the dog and time his corrections accurately. In other words, the fact that it is HIM doing the training could be a bigger proportion of his success than his methods, if that makes sense.

I know from my own training (all reward-based) that my timing is often rubbish! I do like that my rubbish timing just means that the only consequence for my dog is maybe an unearned treat.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

FunkyPuppy said:


> I gained confidence by forcing myself to project confidence i didn't yet feel. I also learned that dogs aren't people. And i learned that slow-going introductions are invaluable keys to success.


Yes, those would be super valuable when handling a variety of strange dogs.

I love your Rehab programme! Amazing how making something a routine takes the stress out of it for dogs.


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