# Applicable health screens versus genetically tested?



## JREM (Jan 30, 2021)

I cut and pasted the following from the AKC marketplace. I’ll read in the description that the parents of the puppies are genetically tested but then I’ll see a red X denoting that applicable health screens have not been performed. 
Can someone explain what are the “applicable health screens as recommended by the Parent Club?” It’s confusing. Still searching. Thank you. 

Description:Liter of dark red mini/moyen size poodles born on April 23rd. Parents. are clear for all genetic tests. The dad is OFA certified. Mom weighs 29 pounds and dad weighs 7 pounds. Limited and full AKC registration available.

The applicable health screens have NOT been performed on the sire and dam as recommended by the Parent Club for this breed.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

"Genetic testing" might just mean that they have been tested to be sure they are all poodle. That's not at all the same as testing for genetic diseases.

By the way, I was appalled to see the difference in the weights of the sire and dam. Steer clear of this mess!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

JREM said:


> Description:Liter of dark red mini/moyen size poodles born on April 23rd. Parents. are clear for all genetic tests. The dad is OFA certified. Mom weighs 29 pounds and dad weighs 7 pounds. Limited and full AKC registration available.





Johanna said:


> "Genetic testing" might just mean that they have been tested to be sure they are all poodle. That's not at all the same as testing for genetic diseases.
> 
> By the way, I was appalled to see the difference in the weights of the sire and dam. Steer clear of this mess!


OMG, I saw that too and wondered if it was a typo. Better to look for an oversized properly bred minipoo or a very small standard both of which can be found from quality breeders.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I suspect they are missing patellas and eyes - physical not just genetic tests- although I am not familiar with testings for minis (sounds like dad is a toy though???) 

7 lbs and 29 lbs... To put this delicately, umm... How does he even reach?


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Regarding testing vs screening. 

In some instances there is a very clear relationship between a disease and a genetic mutation. One example is Progressive Retinal Atrophy. PRA is caused by a recessive gene. A dog with a single copy of the bad gene will be completely healthy; you'd never know it was a carrier. A dog with two copies of the bad gene is almost certain to go blind. Therefore, responsible breeders will test both sire and dam to make sure they aren't accidentally crossing two dogs who will go on to produce puppies that will go blind. It is possible for a dog to be declared clear by parentage. If both parents have been tested, then there is no need to test the offspring. They couldn't have inherited the mutation, since both parents are clear.

In other cases there is very likely to be an inherited component to a health problem, but there is no available genetic test to rule out carriers. Sebaceous Adenitis is such a disease. Severely affected dogs are obvious, as they have crusty skin and hair loss. Mildly affected dogs may look fairly normal, but abnormal skin will be visible under a microscope. Therefore, responsible breeders will have both sire and dam screened via a skin biopsy before breeding them.

The AKC recommended health checks are:
Poodle – Miniature

Hip Evaluation
Ophthalmologist Evaluation
PRA Optigen DNA Test
Patella Evaluation
Poodle – Toy

Ophthalmologist Evaluation
PRA Optigen DNA Test
Patella Evaluation
Of these checks, the PRA test is the only one that is a genetic test. The rest are physical screenings which must be performed by a qualified veterinarian. As I wrote above, it may not even be necessary to perform the PRA test, if the parents of the dog in question were both tested and declared clear. So, given that none of the screenings were done, it's possible this breeder is coasting on the parents' PRA results, and these two dogs have had zero health evaluations themselves. I agree with Johnna. This breeding sounds like a big fat Yikes.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> 7 lbs and 29 lbs... To put this delicately, umm... How does he even reach?


Two possibilities that I can think of are that they had a platform or something for him to stand or or else they did AI.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Good info given here. Keep in mind the thought that being listed as a breeder on the AKC marketplace is not a guarantee of being a quality, conscientious breeder. The least it can mean is that they're breeding AKC registered dogs and doesn't have to mean much more. You are wise to be looking more closely at this.

I found the listing and neither the sire's AKC registration number or name comes up on the OFA site. As expected, neither does the dam's. 

I don't think the phrase "OFA certified" has meaning as a blanket statement, as having been cleared on a group of tests. Each test is individually certified and if a breeder does the minimum required test group for the breed and variety and has the dog microchipped or otherwise permanently identified,_ then_ they will qualify for CHIC certification. (FYI, the dogs don't actually have to have good/clear/normal results for this, just the tests.)

If the testing has been done, and paid for, why wouldn't she list the results on OFA? The phrasing "parents are clear for all genetic tests" is meaningless. The sire's AKC DNA testing is only to prove that he is the dog named, and is used as below:










The breeders name also comes up on Puppyfind.com which is a different kind of marketplace site from the AKC marketplace. The Humane Society of the United States finds that it's often used by brokers for breeder conglomerations to sell puppies by the boatload.

She's offering full registration without any indication that she's going to vet whoever purchases the puppies with the thought of breeding them.

Along with the $3000 price and the above opinions based on available info, this is not a breeder I'd consider for myself, so could not recommend them to anyone else.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> 7 lbs and 29 lbs... To put this delicately, umm... How does he even reach?


I know someone whose dachshund and Dalmatian hooked up. The dachshund is the male!


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## AluePoodles (Jun 25, 2013)

There are a lot of breeders who have caught onto the "lingo" reputable breeders use, and that seems to be the case here. 

I've seen breeders call anything from an Embark panel to nothing but a color panel genetic testing. 

Genetics is just one piece of the puzzle, and there are a few tests you can't get from a panel. If a breeder tests their dogs with the Embark panel, they will still need to purchase the PRA RCD4 test along with the day blindness test. If they do their testing through Paw Print Genetics, they will need to purchase the day blindness test. 

It can be very confusing, but genetic testing is not a substitute or an equal to OFA testing - it's a separate thing that also should be done. 

AKC Marketplace unfortunately does not require a baseline of testing or titles to be able to advertise there, which I don't think is widely known. 

It appears this is a breeder charging far more than what she's put back into her program and dogs. While there is a shortage of good breeders I'd the smaller varieties which means a longer wait time - there are breeders out there who put the time and energy into their dogs they deserve along with proper health testing.


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