# Epilepsy



## Tux

Raven must have been reading over my shoulder when I was writing about his having epileptic seizures. 

He had a very mild one this morning around 5 am, it only lasted a couple of minutes, he was completely "out" - lost control of his bowel and bladder. I pulled him away from furniture by his hind legs so he would not injure himself thrashing around. The vet cautioned me about getting too near his face, saying he could give me a bad bite and not be aware he was doing it.

It took him nearly an hour of pacing around, after it was over, before he settled down. He seems to blunder around, going around and around the same area, not really aware of what he is doing. Tux does not understand so he follows every step. I had to hold Tux back during Raven's seizure, he has no idea what it is all about and gets all excited. A new type of play as far as Tux is concerned. 

After Raven settled down he slept for a few hours, now seems to be back to normal. I have never been able to understand why they happen early in the morning when he should be relaxed and sleeping.


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## apriljean80

Sorry to hear about Raven's seizure. I had an Aussie several years ago that I lost to epilepsy. I NEVER want to go through that with another dog. You feel so helpless when they are seizing. Max did the same thing after his seizures. He would want to pace, several times I tried crating him after one, but he would try to pace in the crate so I usually let him out and watched him pace our yard and run into things. Max's seizures were nearly all the grand mal, thrashing in the floor, loosing control of bowels type. My vet also told me to be very careful about trying to move touch him while he was seizing. 

I wish you and Raven have many more years together, and that you can continue to manage his epilepsy.


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## Tux

*Thank you*

It is comforting to know someone knows what it is like to have an animal with Epilepsy. It would be wonderul if no one else ever had to live with this terrible disease.

I am so sorry you lost Max to eoilepsy. He seems to have acted exactly like Raven does during and after his seizures. When they happen upstairs I sit on the top step so he will not blunder over the edge and fall down the stairs while he is in the blundering around stage that always follows. 

Every one that starts I wonder if it will be the "big one" and end his life. Raven's are all Grand Mal as well, this was about the mildest one he has ever had. I am always so relieved when they are over and he comes around again to being normal. Right now he is sleeping under my desk with his head resting on my foot. 

He always comes to me when they are about to start, he looks so panic stricken, like he thinks I can stop it. How I wish I could. Poor baby.....


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## plumcrazy

Our daughter's standard, Chalumeau, had seizures as a puppy - very scary. Meau is now almost three years old and hasn't had any seizures that we're aware of since she was spayed.

How old was Raven when he started having seizures? Has he been on meds for a long time? Our vet said that Meau was too young to put on meds when we had her in for her seizures, and to just watch & monitor as long as possible. We were very lucky the seizures seemed to have stopped on their own.


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## Tux

*How old was Raven?*

Raven had turned a year old on May 11, 2006, his first seizure was June 15, 2006, so 13 months old. He had them fairly regularly until we got his meds regulated, now about 2 a year. Six months ago he had a really bad one, just after his medical needles. He will never get another needle, I will take my chances. He leads a pretty sheltered life, never runs free or with unknown dogs. The vet agrees with this. 
It was Ora Marcus who alerted me to the possibility of the needles causing the severity of the problem. She has taken a great interest in Raven, considering he is not even one of her dogs, but Tux is one of hers. I sure appreciate her guidance.


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## apriljean80

Thanks for your kind words. Before I lost Max he had a few very extreme seizures, with us running him to the vet in the middle of the night for valium to finally stop the seizures, and right before we lost him we had increased his meds to the highest dosage the vet felt safe giving him. My dog was also very young and had his first seizure right after his first birthday while I was gone on my honeymoon and my poor parents were dog sitting for me. We were never able to connect any triggers or anything to his seizures. 
I did contact his breeder feeling it was information she needed to know, didn't want anything other than her to know about it. She was rather dismissive, sadly. Raven sounds like his seizures are much more controlled than Max's were. I truly hope they find a way to prevent this disease!


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## rubymom

My Cali had a seizure right around 12-13 months old. Back in 1992, I did not know that vaccines could be the culprit of seizures (lots of other residuals too!) Damage does not have to be immediately after the needle, can take days/months/years ! Vaccinosis is a growing concern among many pet owners!
In our case, Cali's seizure occured the 3rd day after a rabies shot. Back then, I never connected a thing!


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## Apres Argent

Be very careful in a multiple dog home if one is having seizures, it can cause the other dogs to attack the dog having a seizure. They should never be left alone unsupervised together. 

Please report seizures to PHR, as a breed we are very lucky to have a health data base but it only works if we all use it! 


PHR Start Here!


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## Tux

*Phr*

I just learned of the Poodle Health Registry yesterday on this forum. I have printed off all the forms, filled them out, now to call my vet the first of the week for him to do his part. Then I will send it in. 

If all breeders would stop breeding lines they know have epilepsy, or any other genetic disease, it would help a great deal. So many breeders will not admit they have any genetic misthaps in their line, *that is unforgivable*. 

Once a breeder knows they have a line that has epilepsy, or any other cruel disease, they should spay/neuter those breeding dogs and find good retirement homes for them. They may not have the disease themselves but can still be carriers. It is what any reputable breeder would do.

No innocent pet owner should have to go through the heart ache I have gone through with Raven for the past 5 years, always worrying that every one will be the end. 

As far as never leaving my dogs unsupervised, that is very difficult when you are a family of one. It is easy to say, but not easy to do. My dogs normally go with me most everywhere I go, but like today I had a hair and manicure appointment, they could hardly go with me.

So far Raven's seizures have always been in the wee hours of the morning, I have been home.


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## Tux

*To Rubymom*

I am so sorry you had to live through this with Cali. It is so heart breaking.

I have to admit I did not connect the vacinations and the seizures either, it was Ora Marcus who made the connection for me. During the course of emails back and forth I mentioned I had Raven in for his vacinations. A few days later I told her about this awful seizure he had. She made the connection. When I looked back there certainly was a connection. Now I can't believe I didn't see it, but I did not.


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## Apres Argent

I am so sorry you both a dealing with this.....


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## Apres Argent

*Some Epilepsy info.*

Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!




mode of inheritance: unknown

Epilepsy (seizures)

Idiopathic epilepsy (also called "primary" epilepsy) can occur in all varieties of Poodles, as well as at least 25 other breeds of dogs. Research indicates that idiopathic epilepsy is inherited. Recent studies by the Poodle Epilepsy Project at Florida State University suggest that at least in some bloodlines of Standard Poodles, idiopathic epilepsy is inherited as a "recessive" disorder. That is, both parents must pass down a defective copy of the gene to an offspring in order for that offspring to have seizures. However, neither parent needs to have seizures in order to pass down a defective copy of the gene. Two "carriers," each of whom possesses one good copy and one defective copy of the gene, can produce offspring with seizures if they are mated with each other. Because there are many factors that can cause seizures besides idiopathic epilepsy (such as metabolic disorders, poisoning, infectious disorders that affect the brain, etc.), it is important for dogs with seizures to get a thorough diagnostic work-up to determine if any of these other factors are causing the dog’s seizures. For further information on seizures, their causes, consequences, and treatments, please contact Barbara G. Licht, Ph.D., Department of Psychology, 209 Copeland St., Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306-1270; Phone: (850) 644-6272; Fax: (850) 644-7739; Email: [email protected]


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## Keithsomething

Tux said:


> I just learned of the Poodle Health Registry yesterday on this forum. I have printed off all the forms, filled them out, now to call my vet the first of the week for him to do his part. Then I will send it in.
> 
> If all breeders would stop breeding lines they know have epilepsy, or any other genetic disease, it would help a great deal. So many breeders will not admit they have any genetic misthaps in their line, *that is unforgivable*.
> 
> Once a breeder knows they have a line that has epilepsy, or any other cruel disease, they should spay/neuter those breeding dogs and find good retirement homes for them. They may not have the disease themselves but can still be carriers. It is what any reputable breeder would do.
> 
> No innocent pet owner should have to go through the heart ache I have gone through with Raven for the past 5 years, always worrying that every one will be the end.
> 
> As far as never leaving my dogs unsupervised, that is very difficult when you are a family of one. It is easy to say, but not easy to do. My dogs normally go with me most everywhere I go, but like today I had a hair and manicure appointment, they could hardly go with me.
> 
> So far Raven's seizures have always been in the wee hours of the morning, I have been home.


Well from the POV of someone that owns a sick dog yes that makes sense...but for a breeder that just ISN'T practical these diseases lay behind EVERY SINGLE LINE (and if you know someone that says that it isn't...you know a liar :])
every line has a prominent disease behind it and if one of those prominent ones happen to be addisons, SA, epilepsy, or bloat...well there aren't DNA tests to determine if the dog will produce that or not its really a crap shoot...AND if someone DOESN'T report it (using PHR, though most pet people don't know about) then how would someone KNOW that their dog has produced it?

Now how much of it do you think is environmental? because I understand that traumatizing experiences can onset seizures (if its predisposed of course) and I don't know about for a dog but for me living in a kennel situation from 6wks on would be pretty traumatizing and make me quite skittish...such a sad story this boy has been through =\ I'm glad to hear he is in such an awesome home though where he is getting the care and treatment he deserves!!


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## Tux

*Live in a kennel?*

It was not me who said Raven lived in a kennel from 6 weeks until I got him at 4 1/2 months, *I have no idea how he lived. * I do know he was very timid when he came here. He did not seem like he had been abused, he was not afraid of brooms, fly swatters or anything like that. He was afraid of loud noises, street traffic, etc etc, very nervous of new situations. He was never once in a kennel after moving here, except probably when he was in to be neutered for about 4 hours. I didn't own a kennel at that time. I bought one when I got Tux, but never used it. Raven came in a very large, very nice shipping crate, which I immediately donated to an animal shelter. 
So far as I know Diane and Peter Welsh are very good to their dogs. I understood the puppies were whelped in their home, or foster homes, but I have never been there, so cannot say first hand. I would never say a word against them, they were always 100% with me. I have spoken with both Diane and Peter on the phone several times. They both came across as intelligent, kind and very concerned. They always took the time to answer any questions I had, very intelligently, I might add. I never once felt 'put off' by them or felt they didn't have time for me. 
They were genuinely surprised when I called telling them Raven was diagnosed as Epileptic. They asked what they could do, offered to replace him, there wasn't much else they could do. I told them I didn't want anything, just wanted them to know about it. They thanked me, asked what my vet had prescribed, etc etc. They asked that I keep them informed as to how the medication was working, which I did.
Most children do not live as well as my dogs, there is nothing stressful in their lives, they have a pet door leading to a fenced back yard, never tied or shut outside. They come and go as they please, sleep on leather furniture or my bed. They go in the car several times a week.


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## Keithsomething

just to clarify, I'm sure the welshes setup is very nice and I would never accuse them or anyone else of abusing their dogs...I don't want my post taken in that context. 
But from their website it does seem like a kennel situation

I am so glad Raven (and Tux) found a home like yours, I know there are children that do not lead as nice as lives as many dogs...I've taken care of some of those children =\


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## Princess Dollie

Keithsomething said:


> Now how much of it do you think is environmental? because I understand that traumatizing experiences can onset seizures (if its predisposed of course) and I don't know about for a dog but for me living in a kennel situation from 6wks on would be pretty traumatizing and make me quite skittish...such a sad story this boy has been through =\ I'm glad to hear he is in such an awesome home though where he is getting the care and treatment he deserves!!


Yeah a lot of it is environmental. I had my beloved sheltie's head crash into a dashboard and suffered two seizures because of that. You don't have a clue.


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## SnorPuddel

Tux said:


> Raven had turned a year old on May 11, 2006, his first seizure was June 15, 2006, so 13 months old. He had them fairly regularly until we got his meds regulated, now about 2 a year. Six months ago he had a really bad one, just after his medical needles. He will never get another needle, I will take my chances. He leads a pretty sheltered life, never runs free or with unknown dogs. The vet agrees with this.
> It was Ora Marcus who alerted me to the possibility of the needles causing the severity of the problem. She has taken a great interest in Raven, considering he is not even one of her dogs, but Tux is one of hers. I sure appreciate her guidance.


That is one of the great things about Ora, she cares about all the dogs, she has taken great interest in Foxxy, her breeder has never responded to any email or reached out to see how she is doing. Ora adores Foxxy 

I admire all the owners that care for dogs that have ailments especially ones such as epilepsy. It shows a lot of character and devotion to care for these poor dogs.
It is wonderful when they get to lead as full lives as they do.


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## Chagall's mom

*Tux:* I am so sorry about Raven's epilepsy. I can hardly imagine the dread and worry you live with, and the distress it causes him. When he rouses from a seizure and finds you there, it must be of great comfort to him. Your willingness to keep him and love him and endure the apprehension of not knowing what might come next is heartwarming. Though it's Raven's sad misfortune to have the disease, it's his great fortune to have you. I too have found Ora to be a wonderful, caring supporter of all poodles, no matter they are not from her line.


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## Ruth

I'm so sorry to hear you're going through this with Raven, Tux. And all of you who are too.

I have no advice or words, except that as Chagall's mom wisely said, they're lucky to have you.

Many hugs for you and Raven!


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## Tux

Thanks for your kindness. It is definitely a worry, but there are months between seizures that Raven is perfectly normal. He willingly takes his meds twice a day in those pill pockets. He thinks they are treats, comes looking for them. He is so sweet and gentle. 

I have learned so much in the past year from Ora about poodles. Yes, she is just as concerned about Raven as she is about Tux. 

Raven is definitely not the show stopper Tux is, but Ora never runs Raven down, always says he is a "pretty" boy, which he is. Anyone who knows conformation would see the difference in a minute, but most people don't really know the difference. They just see two handsome dogs one black, one white, groomed to the max. That is rare here, Sussex is a farm community, farmers don't have Standard Poodles. Every now and then a farmer who knows me will yell _"Hey, Gail, are they good cow dogs?" "The best!"_


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## Olie

I think its wonderful you are where you are today with Raven. He is a lucky boy that deserved to have a caring home such as yours. 

I am sorry that this could possibly be because of the health history of the Dam and Sire that continued to breed siblings. Yes, its not a guarantee of health but many breeders would discontinue the line if this had occurred, nothing is 100% however you took the best step this time by finding a breeder that does have very minimal issues in her line. Epilepsy scares me the most of many things a dog can have. Some dogs have them so severe and frequent and hopefully Raven will continue on the same path he is now if not better 

Thank you for speaking up with your experience with this. I appreciate those that come on to discuss tough subjects that truly help educate us.


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## Tux

Thanks, it was very difficult to admit my Raven has any "issues". How I wish I could make the epilipsy just go away. At first the vet called it "juvenile epilepsy", I thought Raven might just get over it. That is not going to happen at 6 years old. It is like living with a ticking time bomb, you have no idea when it is going to happen, or what damage it will do. 
I am pleased to know about the Poodle Health Registry, will register Raven. It might help someone in the future. I had no idea there was such a thing.


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## Keithsomething

Well as I said earlier, as a pet owner it sounds nice to discontinue a line...but from a breeding perspective how would this breed ever continue if we never bred from lines that had issues? It's responsible breeders that research pedigrees and get of the dogs they use that will have an educated guess about what they produce

It's sad that Raven has epilepsy, but...how many of his siblings have it? And how many of the pups from the dam have it? And how many of the sires pups have it? All of this must be taken into consideration before we cast stones...not to mention a multitude of other things that could play into it, over vaccination?


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## Olie

Keith I personally do not disagree with you in most of your last post. There are many factors. Tux said positive things about her breeder - however it is of her opinion that breeders should discontinue their lines if incidents such as epilepsy come up. 

And also there ARE breeders that agree and have made the decision to discontinue breeding of lines that have had bloat, Epilepsy, SA,.....so its not exactly unheard of here. 


I don't feel Tux was casting stones. I feel she has said minimal in regards to her breeder in this thread and she is sharing her story.


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## Chagall's mom

It was rather late (for me, anyway!) when I came upon this thread last night. First, I want to say to all the others; *rubymom, **apriljean80,* *plumcrazy,* *Princess Dolly *and anyone who has or loves a dog (or person) with seizure disorders, or has witnessed such episodes, I feel for you! 

I am unclear (no smarter in the a.m. then the p.m.) about whether breeders have different opinions on epilepsy being inherited? I understand seizures can be triggered by a number of things, but I am clueless as to how many (or few?) dogs anywhere in a pedigree would prompt a concern about it being inherited. (I know I am a total shame to my mother, who was a high school biology teacher. Sadly, she's no longer here to explain things to me.)

This discussion just reiterates for me how very complicated breeding (done right) can be, and how much unforeseen heartache comes along with the devotion. A while ago someone on the forum used the words, "kennel blindness" in explaining something. I don't begin to know how much a factor that might be, I do know that it has to take a lot of guts and heart to be a breeder. And, to be the owner of an animal with a disorder as complex as epilepsy.


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## Olie

Apres Argent said:


> Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mode of inheritance: unknown
> 
> Epilepsy (seizures)
> 
> Idiopathic epilepsy (also called "primary" epilepsy) can occur in all varieties of Poodles, as well as at least 25 other breeds of dogs. Research indicates that idiopathic epilepsy is inherited. Recent studies by the Poodle Epilepsy Project at Florida State University suggest that at least in some bloodlines of Standard Poodles, idiopathic epilepsy is inherited as a "recessive" disorder. That is, both parents must pass down a defective copy of the gene to an offspring in order for that offspring to have seizures. However, neither parent needs to have seizures in order to pass down a defective copy of the gene. Two "carriers," each of whom possesses one good copy and one defective copy of the gene, can produce offspring with seizures if they are mated with each other. Because there are many factors that can cause seizures besides idiopathic epilepsy (such as metabolic disorders, poisoning, infectious disorders that affect the brain, etc.), it is important for dogs with seizures to get a thorough diagnostic work-up to determine if any of these other factors are causing the dog’s seizures. For further information on seizures, their causes, consequences, and treatments, please contact Barbara G. Licht, Ph.D., Department of Psychology, 209 Copeland St., Florida State University, Tallahassee, FL 32306-1270; Phone: (850) 644-6272; Fax: (850) 644-7739; Email: [email protected]


This is a great resource! I am shocked at how many affected dogs and not placed into PHR. I am so glad that Tux you have this information now. Hopefully most of will not have to use it. After reading this in depth. I would certainly agree as a "pet owner" that seizures certainly can be brought on by many factors however it is lead on genetics as well and environmental plays a great deal in the triggers.

_"Also a common check of the thyroid.....as it contributes greatly to epilepsy and or seizures. 

Low Thyroid Function - Hypothyroidism & Seizures
Seizures are one of the symptoms of hypothyroidism along with chronic skin disease, hair loss, weight gain, lethargy and slow metabolism, *behavioral changes* (aggression, hyperactivity, poor concentration, passivity, *phobias, anxiety*.) A recent study of 634 dogs showed that 77% of the dogs who were hypothyroid also had seizures. Dr William Thomas, a board certified neurologist, had this to say about thyroid testing:

"Thyroid testing should be considered in any dog with recurrent seizures. Such testing is relatively inexpensive and carries little risk to the patient. Any dog that is diagnosed with hypothyroidism by appropriate testing should be treated with thyroid replacement therapy. This applies to all dogs, whether or not they suffer seizures. If the seizures improve with thyroid therapy, then great! If not, the patient should still be treated because hypothyroidism can cause many other health problems. Appropriate use of thyroid medication is one of the safest and effective treatments available in veterinary medicine. " WB Thomas DVM, Dipl.ACVIM (Neurology) University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN

It is a good idea to have a full thyroid panel of 6 different tests to determine if your dog is hypothyroid. The tests you want to have done are T3, T4, free T3, free T4, T3 and T4 Autoantibodies. Two or three thyroid tests (e.g.T4, free T4 or TSH), are not conclusive for hypothyroidism. You need all 6 tests listed. Proper thyroid medication may reduce or eliminate seizures._


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## rubymom

One thing for certain, seizures are sign of a neuro malfunctioning whether a genetic flaw, genetic predispostion or enviromentally caused by insult and/or trauma. When Tux shares her opinion on not breeding dogs with documented seizure disorders, I respect and share the same opinion. Seizure disorders are a spectrum disorder and range greatly in frequency and severity! Many live normal lives, some on medications and/or lifestyle modifications, but there are others that suffer debilitating effects, unable to find relief! 
Do you really want to risk breeding a dog with a link to seizures on the premise that it is not a genetic link? Why would anyone take that risk?


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## Tux

*Good article*

Olie, that was very good information. 
My vet did a lot of tests on Raven, thyroid was one of them. His thought was to rule out as many probable causes as possible, to know the best possible treatment. All the testing proved negative as to cause. That led him to believe it was genetic. That is why he asked me to call the breeder and let them know about Raven. 
I am not a vet so cannot elaborate on all the testing, I left that in his capable hands. I just paid the bills and relied on his course of treatment.


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## SnorPuddel

Keithsomething said:


> It's sad that Raven has epilepsy, but...how many of his siblings have it? And how many of the pups from the dam have it? And how many of the sires pups have it? All of this must be taken into consideration before we cast stones...not to mention a multitude of other things that could play into it, over vaccination?


It is a very valid question, but sadly very few pet owners know about PHR and many breeders also do not post the information on PHR.

From PHR on the dam side:
Cantope Hollyberry By Kitsu, she shows 4 litters on PHR with 33 offspring, of those only 3 were tested:
Arreau Besame Mucho Dayspring (F) 13 Sep 2008 US264132 r, Callname=Besame, Hips=Good[OFA]
Arreau's Golden Slumber (F) 13 Sep 2008 US260026 r, Callname=Jenny, Tested_Clear=DM[OFA] , Hips=Excellent[OFA]
Arreau's I'll Follow The Sun (F) 13 Sep 2008 US260017 r, Callname=Betty-Jo, Tested_Clear=DM[OFA] , Hips=Excellent[OFA]
and one shows as Parent of:
Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette (F) 11 May 2005 RJ031998 b, Parent_of=Excellent[OFA](1)

From PHR on the sire side:
Cantope's Guinness (M) 11 Sep 2003 NS896746 br, he shows that he sired only one litter on PHR, :
Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette (F) 11 May 2005 RJ031998 b, Parent_of=Excellent[OFA](1)

There is very little info to go on as very little information is available.

I for one do not think for a moment that Gail was casting stones, she was stating facts.

Yes she is a pet owner, but she is entitled to her opinion and personally if I had a dam or sire that produced epilepsy I would spay or neuter. I would not want to continue with them and possibly produce the same in another litter, but that is me. 

There are breeders that go back and use dogs that are known to have health issues in their offspring. For some it is a calculated risk, but for me, I would rather not take that risk.

The lack of health info on the offspring of Raven's dam just proves that we need to be more vigilant in telling people about PHR (maybe I will start a thread) and encourage pet owners and breeders alike to post any health issue that one can register on PHR.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

SnorPuddel said:


> I don't think that Gail was pointing fingers or being malicious, at least I didn't take it that way. She was just presenting facts.
> 
> I am glad that all the health testing has been done, accurate information is imperative. I just wish that info was on the PHR site too


It takes PHR a long time to pick the info up from the OFA site. If there was a way for an owner to post it on PHR, we would have. Jenny's testing other than her hips and eyes took months to appear on PHR. Betty's seems to be trickling in now.


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## SnorPuddel

Owners are the only ones who can submit to PHR, the breeder can't, it has to be the registered owner.

Where does the health information come from?
Dogs registered with the Poodle Health Registry have their health information in the database. These dogs, as with other registries, are submitted by their owners with the necessary paperwork. We have also included the SA and / or Addisons dogs from several Poodle club registries, including the UK Standard Poodle Club SA and AD registries, marked with [SPC], the Swedish Poodle club [SPK], the Finnish Poodle Club [FPK], the Norwegian Poodle Club [NPK], and the Danish Poodle Club [DPK]. Also included are the dogs from the old Genetic Disease Control in Animals SA Registry, they are marked with a [GDC]. Additionally dogs from OFA's SA registry (affecteds and subclinicals only) have been added. The OFA VWD affecteds and carriers have been added, and we are in the process of adding the dogs tested clear of VWD via a DNA test. The OFA dogs are marked with [OFA]. Some hip status information from the Norwegian Kennel Club (NKK), the Swedish Kennel Club (SKK), the Finnish Kennel Club (KoiraNet), and the Danish Kennel Club (DKK) is also included The details about each dog (when diagnosed, etc) are available from the registry designated. The details on PHR registered dogs are available here.


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## A'n'A Mom

Hi All,

Just to clarify some things about the PHR Database so everyone understands its benefits and limitations.

First of all, the PHR is a registry of Poodles with health conditions that have a medically verified diagnosis and that are submitted to PHR by the owner.
Second, the PHR Database also lists Poodle health results from other registries that require a medical diagnosis....like OFA, GDC, and the various Poodle clubs that have mandatory reporting of affected dogs with diseases like SA and Addison's.

Results from registries like OFA are entered by hand once the results are posted on the OFA website. Dog by dog, result by result...they are typed into the PHR master database one at a time. There are only a couple of us doing this on a volunteer basis and we're populating the PHRDB as quickly as we can. BUT, please do not think that everything that's on OFA is also on the PHRDB. Also, because many tests, such as SA, CERF and thyroid, are only accurate for the day the test is run, the PHRDB does not list them. A Poodle with a clear SA test today, could be diagnosed with SA next month and that result never reported to OFA or PHR. And with recurring tests, like CERF, we just don't have the personnel or time to keep up with tests that expire. 

Last thing, NO single database or resource can ever cover everything. No single database or resource can replace careful and thorough research. Use the PHRDB and OFA and personal questioning of a breeder before making buying or breeding decisions. PHR is a way to keep track of things we might otherwise never know about and it's extraordinarily useful, a great tool....but it was never intended to be everything to everyone with every answer about Poodle health.

Tux, I'm terribly sorry about Raven's diagnosis. You might want to email Dr. Barbara Licht at the address on the PHR epilepsy writeup. She is extraordinarily generous with her knowledge and research findings about epilepsy in Poodles and often knows ways to tweak medications that are helpful to both Poodle and owner.

All, I don't know Raven's pedigree....but no breeder can change their breeding program until they know about a problem. If Raven was only recently diagnosed and the Walshes had not known about any other cases, there's no reason for them to have altered their breeding program. There are many things which can cause seizures and the older a dog is when it first has a seizure, the less likely it is that the cause is genetic. We need to be careful about always jumping on and blaming the breeder for everything that goes wrong with our beloved Poodles. Sometimes,'stuff' just happens.

Tux, please give Raven a cheek scratch and a hug for me! If you have any questions about the PHR paperwork or registration process, please let me know.

Nancy


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Tux said:


> Raven must have been reading over my shoulder when I was writing about his having epileptic seizures.
> 
> He had a very mild one this morning around 5 am, it only lasted a couple of minutes, he was completely "out" - lost control of his bowel and bladder. I pulled him away from furniture by his hind legs so he would not injure himself thrashing around. The vet cautioned me about getting too near his face, saying he could give me a bad bite and not be aware he was doing it.
> 
> It took him nearly an hour of pacing around, after it was over, before he settled down. He seems to blunder around, going around and around the same area, not really aware of what he is doing. Tux does not understand so he follows every step. I had to hold Tux back during Raven's seizure, he has no idea what it is all about and gets all excited. A new type of play as far as Tux is concerned.
> 
> After Raven settled down he slept for a few hours, now seems to be back to normal. I have never been able to understand why they happen early in the morning when he should be relaxed and sleeping.


If Raven's seizures are all happening early in the day and he is medicated, I would talk to the vet, sounds like a medication adjustment is in order.

Great advice from the vet on not getting too close to face.. or feet for that matter, even short clipped nails can cause injury if you happen to get caught by them.

For seizing dogs that lose control of bowel and bladder.. helps to have some "chux" (some of those incontinent pads used for humans), stashed in inconspicuous places, really handy to be able to slide the dogs rear right on to one and can save some big cleanup...

Regarding the pacing around/disorientation- that is not at all uncommon after a seizure and is referred to as the Post-ictal (or "after seizure") stage. My Vic has been so disoriented as to seem unable to hear me, or to follow my voice, getting up and trying to stagger in a direction that she shouldn't be going. Riley was always quick to seek me out, but seemed baffled by everything else in the world. With both Ri and Vic, it seems to me that the best, most reassuring thing for them is just to talk calmly and touch/pet them, until they finally got to sleep.

The seizures take a whole lot out of a dog and both my Vic and Ri, would sleep for extended periods of time (as do most humans) after having a seizure.

Having other dogs around during active seizures may not be the best idea, depending on the situation. First the seizing dog may inadvertantly bite a curious dog who is just "checking things out".. just as it may inadvertantly bite a human who is in the wrong place at the wrong time. Second, sometimes seizures can be "re-triggered" by environmental stimulation. During the worst seizure that Vic ever experienced. we were at the local dog park when she went down. Well meaning people gathered around as did their dogs. One woman was totally convinced that Vic had dropped because of heatstroke and needed water. I finally had to start pointing fingers at people and speciically request them to do things "Please make everyone move way back", "you, please make sure no dogs can get to us". Without fail, everytime the seizures would slow, up would come a dog or the water woman and things would start again. It was horrible, the worst seizure I've ever seen.. and I've seen some doozies in both humans and dogs. There were times where Vic would be unable to inhale for several minutes at a time.. and I caught myself counting minutes.. and thinking.. at the least.. brain damage. We'll never know, but I believe the seizure would have lasted half the time, or less.. without all of the commotion and re-triggers. Third reason for keeping other dogs away... sometimes erratic behavior in a dog (seizure), can be a trigger for others to attack. Sounds pretty horrible to our human minds, but someone once made a comment to me that you sure don't see seizures happening in coyotes, wolves, etc. and the reason for that is.. at the first seizure, they are killed by their pack mates, end of problem. I don't know if that is true, but I thought that it was a thought provoking comment, and if true, certainly an example of mother nature selecting for those fittest for survival, cruel though it sounds to me. Having said all of that, when Vic or Ri is/was post ictal, most of the time, I allow calm contact with another dog as well as myself. These are my personal experiences, please take them as that.. and hopefully there is something in them that you can benefit from.


----------



## A'n'A Mom

You all have been posting faster than I could write!!! 

I'm working on the OFA results as fast as I can. Since things were entered kind of sporadically, I decided the best thing was to work through all the OFA Poodle listings month by month, going from current results backwards. It's time consuming ;-)

If you have OFA results that I haven't gotten to you, please, please, please email me with the dog's registered name and I'll find them on OFA and get the results entered. 

nancy AT phrdatabase DOT org

Nancy


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Tux said:


> Every one that starts I wonder if it will be the "big one" and end his life. Raven's are all Grand Mal as well, this was about the mildest one he has ever had. I am always so relieved when they are over and he comes around again to being normal. Right now he is sleeping under my desk with his head resting on my foot.
> 
> He always comes to me when they are about to start, he looks so panic stricken, like he thinks I can stop it. How I wish I could. Poor baby.....


I don't know if anyone who hasn't gone through that can ever truly understand that terror and feeling of helplessness that goes along with watching the seizures.

Sending big, big hugs your way! 
It sounds like you have great relationship with your vet. However, the vet may not realize how bad the seizures are. You may want to record or video a seizure if you have the opportunity (many cell phones now have video recorders), or if not, take notes recording the time every couple of minutes,and what's happening, what part of the body is moving, or not, rigid or without tone, that kind of thing. Sometimes that helps when making choices in medications.
After the dog park seizure, my vet gave me some valium pills for Vic.. to keep on hand in case I suspected another seizure was about to happen(had to be given while she is fully alert and able to swallow, obviously). He also told me that IF she was having a severe seizure, that I could give the valium rectally, like a suppository (the pills!) and that they would dissolve and be absorbed into her system and should help bring it to an end. Not dealing with the tooth end of the dog during the seizure.. and quite honestly, I would do just about anything to stop a seizure like that from happening. May be worth asking your vet:
1)How concerned do you need to be about these seizures?
2) Is there anything that you can do/give during the seizure?

Let your vet see the notes you have taken or the video for a more concrete idea of what's happening.

Once Raven is past the stoopid stage (nothing personal, that's how I refer to Vic, when she's post ictal and before she's thinking/processing), one of the things that I've found helpful with Vic is to tell her to "Sit!" and then praise her tremendously. She will still be not totally functioning right, but whatever is going on, she knows that she's a good girl! I have also done some "downs". I don't do anything other than that. Things she can comprehend, super easy, non stimulating that normally wouldn't be a big deal. All of a sudden are confidence builders and I see her tail wag in response.. good enough for me.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

Tux said:


> Raven had turned a year old on May 11, 2006, his first seizure was June 15, 2006, so 13 months old. He had them fairly regularly until we got his meds regulated, now about 2 a year. Six months ago he had a really bad one, just after his medical needles. He will never get another needle, I will take my chances. He leads a pretty sheltered life, never runs free or with unknown dogs. The vet agrees with this.
> It was Ora Marcus who alerted me to the possibility of the needles causing the severity of the problem. She has taken a great interest in Raven, considering he is not even one of her dogs, but Tux is one of hers. I sure appreciate her guidance.


You may want to ask your vet if he considers the vaccinations as having triggered or played a role in the seizures. If so, would he please do an adverse reaction report.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

A'n'A Mom said:


> You all have been posting faster than I could write!!!
> 
> I'm working on the OFA results as fast as I can. Since things were entered kind of sporadically, I decided the best thing was to work through all the OFA Poodle listings month by month, going from current results backwards. It's time consuming ;-)
> 
> If you have OFA results that I haven't gotten to you, please, please, please email me with the dog's registered name and I'll find them on OFA and get the results entered.
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Nancy


Thanks so much. If you could update Arreau's I'll Follow the Sun and Arreau's Golden Slumber, it would be greatly appreciated. They are both on OFA with CHIC numbers.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

******


Tux said:


> I just learned of the Poodle Health Registry yesterday on this forum. I have printed off all the forms, filled them out, now to call my vet the first of the week for him to do his part. Then I will send it in.
> 
> Excellent! That is terrific. PHR registrations are the biggest tool we have in stopping these horrible problems!
> 
> If all breeders would stop breeding lines they know have epilepsy, or any other genetic disease, it would help a great deal. So many breeders will not admit they have any genetic misthaps in their line, *that is unforgivable*.
> 
> Groan, kinda right/kinda not right and, boy do I ever understand the sentiments, passion and heartbreak behind those words. The problem is, our standard poodles are in one heck of a genetic pickle. There are no lines that are free of genetic disease, none, not one. If, effective today, no more breeding from lines having genetic diseases happened, we would be seeing our last litters of standard poodle puppies arrive during the next 65 days or so and then no more, ever. That's how bad it is. But there are some lines with less risk than others and it is possible IF the risk factors are known to plan breedings which are lower in health risk. Having said that, yes, there are many breeders out there who will not admit to have genetic mishaps in their lines. Their silence has been purchased by their priorities and the reason's they are involved in poodles and in most cases, it comes down to ego, or money or both.
> 
> Once a breeder knows they have a line that has epilepsy, or any other cruel disease, they should spay/neuter those breeding dogs and find good retirement homes for them. They may not have the disease themselves but can still be carriers. It is what any reputable breeder would do.
> 
> Again, kinda right, kinda not right.. and something that I strongly advocated for, for many years. The problem is with most of our inherited illnesses, we are clueless about the mode of inheritance of that illness, in some cases, bloat for example, there is even an ongoing debate about whether or not it is actually inherited (using that as an example, only, not up to the debate on that one again today). We are also in a bit of trouble because of a limited gene pool. Several years ago, a theory on the mode of inheritance of Addison's disease was proposed. The theory that was proposed is that Addison's had a simple recessive mode of inheritance in standard poodles. That doesn't sound too bad, if you know the mode of inheritance, it makes it easier to eliminate a disorder. Often poodles who had produced an Addisonian offspring were sp/eutered because at the very least, based on a simple recessive mode of inheritance theory, those poodles were carriers. As a result, we lost more poodle genetics, as there were some poodles who were the last of older blood lines who were sp/eutered. What many breeders accepted as fact, was only theory. We still don't have fact. But the new theory is that Addison's is probably polygenic.. basically much the same as hip dysplasia and possibly with environmental triggers. Those people, who had the breed's best interests at heart and removed dogs from unique lines inadvertently caused additional damage by further limiting the available gene pool. I'm certainly not advocating for breeding of affected dogs and I believe that breeding of any dogs with super high health risk, should be done with extreme caution and full disclosure to owners. I also believe that regardless of what anyone's breeding practices are, the very best thing we can all do, across the board is to register ALL health issues, whether we personally believe them to be inherited or not, with PHR.
> 
> No innocent pet owner should have to go through the heart ache I have gone through with Raven for the past 5 years, always worrying that every one will be the end.
> 
> I can't begin to tell you how much I agree with that, and how sorry I am for you and any one else who lives like that. But there is risk in owning any dog, breeders aren't God, we can't see the future, we can't predict which dogs will fall ill and which dog's won't. If we could, despite ego/money, there wouldn't be unhealthy, heartbreaking dogs.
> 
> As far as never leaving my dogs unsupervised, that is very difficult when you are a family of one. It is easy to say, but not easy to do. My dogs normally go with me most everywhere I go, but like today I had a hair and manicure appointment, they could hardly go with me.
> 
> Every individual situation has its own challenges. There have been times when Vic has been so unstable with her AD,(Vic has Addison's disease, as well as epilepsy) that I haven't dared leave her alone, yet not only can't afford to board her daily at the vet's office, but the stress of that would probably do her in. Fortunately, I have someone near me who adores her and has taken her when that has happened. As Vic adores that person, it's worked out so far.
> 
> So far Raven's seizures have always been in the wee hours of the morning, I have been home.
> 
> Start an ongoing seizure tracking chart. When we consistantly see seizures happening in humans at the same time of day, it usually means that a medication "tune up" is in order....


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## Countryboy

I should tell y'all that before I picked my guy, I was told that his previous owner had reported seizures. 

I took him anyway . . prepared to deal with the consequences. 

I couldn't do otherwise, eh? He needed a home.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Apres Argent said:


> [email protected][/email]





I have had many exchanges through the years with Dr Licht. Although she is not a canine veterinarian, she has spent much of her career dealing with epilepsy research and dogs! She is super kind hearted and very, very knowledgable. When there are seizure issues with Vic/Ri, Dr Licht is my first phone call once things are under control. That statement above, was written with Dr Licht's permission.. and she means it!


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## A'n'A Mom

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Thanks so much. If you could update Arreau's I'll Follow the Sun and Arreau's Golden Slumber, it would be greatly appreciated. They are both on OFA with CHIC numbers.


Arreau,

Thanks for sending their names. I checked and the OFA results that we can publish are already there....

PHR Pedigree Database

PHR Pedigree Database

As I said in my earlier post, PHR doesn't post the things that can change....like CERF, thyroid, SA and cardiac auscultation results. 
Wish we could, but it's just not possible. 

Nancy


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

******


Keithsomething said:


> Well from the POV of someone that owns a sick dog yes that makes sense...but for a breeder that just ISN'T practical these diseases lay behind EVERY SINGLE LINE (and if you know someone that says that it isn't...you know a liar :])
> every line has a prominent disease behind it and if one of those prominent ones happen to be addisons, SA, epilepsy, or bloat...well there aren't DNA tests to determine if the dog will produce that or not its really a crap shoot...AND if someone DOESN'T report it (using PHR, though most pet people don't know about) then how would someone KNOW that their dog has produced it?
> 
> Guess I should have read this thread instead of reading/replying as I read it! Oh how true this is.. I've wondered for years how to deal with this effectively. My most recent contract (for those who know me, I'm sure there are snickers going on.. as I update my contracts more often then I ever use them) requires that not only am I notified if any health issues occur, but also that those issues are registered with the PHR. Why? Because I care what happens to our poodles. I have been told that as a breeder, I'm cutting my own throat to do that. I disagree. I believe that every breeder who is concerned about the breed will eventually do the same thing. When you see a dog out of so and so's kennel on PHR with a health issue.. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE KENNEL IS ROTTEN! Far from it, it could mean that the breeders are very responsible, laying the groundwork for future research and for our poodle breeders of the future. It also doesn't mean that all dogs in that kennel have whatever genetics for whatever issue it is that's posted. Heck, it doesn't even mean that the issue is genetic (bloat????!?!?) what it means is.. that as a breeder, I am humble enough to control the things I can and the things that I can't, I'm going to let the world know about so that someday, just maybe we can deal with them. It also means that my puppy people can trust what's being on PHR as reflective of what comes out of my kennel. So that's how I personally am dealing with reporting/PHR. I hope as I tell my puppy people about the significance of PHR, that they will share this information with other poodle people and get the word out. The last point I have to make here is this: It takes responsible owners to make responsible breeders and vice versa. Breeders and owners are totally dependent on each other.
> 
> Now how much of it do you think is environmental? because I understand that traumatizing experiences can onset seizures (if its predisposed of course) and I don't know about for a dog but for me living in a kennel situation from 6wks on would be pretty traumatizing and make me quite skittish...such a sad story this boy has been through =\ I'm glad to hear he is in such an awesome home though where he is getting the care and treatment he deserves!!
> 
> Unfortunately, as there is no test for idiopathic epilepsy, it doesn't mean that it is genetic, or that it wasn't caused by a bump on the head or.. who knows. But here's the deal.. if EVERYONE does the PHR thing, then pretty soon, we'll start to see clusters in certain families. If we have a cluster in a pedigree, well, we can probably guess that there's a good chance that it's genetic. Whereas, if we are looking at a pedigree and there's one diagnosis of seizures in 10 generations, with no others anywhere (and if it were me, I would be contacting owners, via phone or email to confirm that), then there is a good chance that one seizure affected dog is not genetic. I need to clarify that I did say if everyone was doing the PHR thing. Right now, I'm estimating that less then 1/10th of the health issues in poodles are currently being registered with PHR.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

Keithsomething said:


> just to clarify, I'm sure the welshes setup is very nice and I would never accuse them or anyone else of abusing their dogs...I don't want my post taken in that context.
> But from their website it does seem like a kennel situation
> 
> I am so glad Raven (and Tux) found a home like yours, I know there are children that do not lead as nice as lives as many dogs...I've taken care of some of those children =\



For many years, standard poodles were bred in the "big kennels" or "old time kennels" and that meant, exactly that, BIG kennels, lots and lots of poodles, kennel maids.. etc. Now the word kennel tends to raise eyebrows and make people look down their noses, point their fingers and.. bad words come out of their mouths.. BUT...

There are actually pros and cons to just about any breeding situation, including big kennels. (ah crap, there goes my neck on the old chopping block again!). I'm not talking puppy mills, although as everyone has their own definition of puppy mill, anyone who has ever bred a dog could most likely fall under someone's defintion of puppy mill!

Would be great to do a separate thread sometime on pros/cons of different breeding strategies/setups....


----------



## 2719

Quote From YaddaluvpoodlesGuess I should have read this thread instead of reading/replying as I read it! Oh how true this is.. I've wondered for years how to deal with this effectively. My most recent contract (for those who know me, I'm sure there are snickers going on.. as I update my contracts more often then I ever use them) requires that not only am I notified if any health issues occur, but also that those issues are registered with the PHR. Why? Because I care what happens to our poodles. I have been told that as a breeder, I'm cutting my own throat to do that. I disagree. I believe that every breeder who is concerned about the breed will eventually do the same thing. When you see a dog out of so and so's kennel on PHR with a health issue.. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THE KENNEL IS ROTTEN! Far from it, it could mean that the breeders are very responsible, laying the groundwork for future research and for our poodle breeders of the future. It also doesn't mean that all dogs in that kennel have whatever genetics for whatever issue it is that's posted. Heck, it doesn't even mean that the issue is genetic (bloat????!?!?) what it means is.. that as a breeder, I am humble enough to control the things I can and the things that I can't, I'm going to let the world know about so that someday, just maybe we can deal with them. It also means that my puppy people can trust what's being on PHR as reflective of what comes out of my kennel. So that's how I personally am dealing with reporting/PHR. I hope as I tell my puppy people about the significance of PHR, that they will share this information with other poodle people and get the word out. The last point I have to make here is this: It takes responsible owners to make responsible breeders and vice versa. Breeders and owners are totally dependent on each other.Excellent Point. When Egos get involved the breed suffers. I agree that it takes a lot of guts to report a fault in your line...but sometimes it is the better of all evils.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

Tux said:


> You have taken my words out of context, or perhaps I did not word it well, my vet was speaking of breeders in general, not any particular breeder.
> 
> I did not know until I joined here 3 days ago that Raven's breeder was still breeding that line, I heard that on here. I still don't know if that is accurate.
> However, *if *they are, it is not a good thing, that only makes common sense.


re: breeding out of those lines... MAYBE it makes sense. It depends on the risk factors in those lines. When developing a line, it can take breeders many, many years. IF Raven's is the only known case of seizures in those lines, it is a tough call as to whether or not to continue breeding those lines. No breeder wants to produce an unhealthy dog, but keeping in mind that Idiopathic Epilepsy means that there is no known cause to the seizures. So.. let's say that there was some sort of contaminant in one of the vaccines that Raven received.. which somehow caused his seizures (then we could get into.. but was there a genetic predisposition.. but not right now <VBG>) Would it be right to expect the breeders to retire parents.. because of a contaminant in a vaccine? Or maybe did Raven run into something when he was a puppy, causing the seizures? Again.. should a breeder retire parents based on one diagnosis of idiopathic epilepsy? I hope that I never am faced with such a decision, it would truly be a nightmare! Ok, now lets' say that on reviewing a pedigree of a dog with idiopathic seizures, we find more seizure history in the dams' side of the pedigree. Would it be right to retire the sire from breeding as well? These decisions aren't easily made and have lots of implications. I know a whole lot of breeders out there who have poodles with one health issue or another which they are claiming to be environmental.. if we could just get people to report to PHR.. we would have a much better picture of what's going on!

Let's say that a breeder retires dogs because of a health issue, if they want to continue breeding.. who do they "replace" those dogs with? Do they go to a totally different line, do they have access to some related dogs who maybe don't have as high of risk of health issues? If they choose to go with unrelated dogs.. what are the chances that they are starting over with dogs who have health issues that they are unaware of? Would it be better to stick to their own lines and breed "away" from the problem once they are aware it is there.. or.. is that further spreading the risk throughout the gene pool? Just some points to consider.


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## kitman01

Sorry to hear about Raven. I use to have a cat who starting having seizures I also had a book the person who wrote it had special diets for different types of seizures. 
So I took some advice from the book like how often my cat had a seizure what time of the day what happen before and after. I keep a log book It turns out my cat had a seizure every 9 weeks in the evening when he was sleeping these were like grand mall seizures. . It took about 9 weeks for the toxin to build up then he had a seizure. I experimented with his diet after a period of trial and error I finally figured out he was allergic to corn or wheat. Once I changed his diet the seizures stopped. I know it’s not always that simple If your interested in the book I’ll see if I can find it for you and I also have a few good web sites if you haven’t already found them. Just let me know.
Sorry to rush off back to work…..


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## Countryboy

Speaking of epilepsy . . and with a double major in Psychology and Sociology . . . I let Raven's breeder know my 'opinion'. That this unfortunate dog's epilepsy is entirely situational.


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## spoospirit

Countryboy said:


> Speaking of epilepsy . . and with a double major in Psychology and Sociology . . . I let Raven's breeder know my 'opinion'. That this unfortunate dog's epilepsy is entirely situational.


_Could you tell us what you based your opinion on? I am very interested in knowing how epilepsy affects poodles and through what channels it can appear.

No malice intended whatsoever in this question. I am assuming your degrees are in human Psychology and Sociology. Do they cross over to apply to animals as well or have you done further study regarding the effects on animals that brought you to this conclusion? I notice that you did write "opinion" and am just wondering what you based your opinion on.

I realize that epilepsy can be present in a dog through more than one means. If heredity has not been ruled out, then should we not leave the door open on the possibility that it can be passed through the parents when determining our future breeding programs?

I personally would make note of one puppy from a breeding of ours, but not refrain from breeding the dog or bitch again. However, if it were to affect more than one puppy, I would certainly be looking into whether the puppies were from a particular bitch or stud and then I would definitely not be wanting to bred that particular dog again._


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## Countryboy

spoospirit said:


> _Could you tell us what you based your opinion on?_


My opinion was based on the owners posts. 



spoospirit said:


> _I personally would make note of one puppy from a breeding of ours, but not refrain from breeding the dog or bitch again. However, if it were to affect more than one puppy, I would certainly be looking into whether the puppies were from a particular bitch or stud and then I would definitely not be wanting to bred that particular dog again._


I would do exactly the same.


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## plumcrazy

This thread is being reopened for comment. Please keep the discussion on topic and be aware that if posts are being reported for cause, the thread will be closed and moved again. 

Thank you for your cooperation.

Barb


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## bigredpoodle

A'n'A Mom said:


> Arreau,
> 
> Thanks for sending their names. I checked and the OFA results that we can publish are already there....
> 
> PHR Pedigree Database
> 
> PHR Pedigree Database
> 
> As I said in my earlier post, PHR doesn't post the things that can change....like CERF, thyroid, SA and cardiac auscultation results.
> Wish we could, but it's just not possible.
> 
> Nancy


Thank you Nancy for sticking to the quantifiable facts only . That makes PHR a huge tool for breeders. Knowing that only things verified either by a Vet or Ofa can be posted. No opinions in other words.. Thank you !!!!!!


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## spoospirit

_As a breeder, I believe that all health issues should be reported to PHR. If any of our puppies were to be diagnosed with a health issue, Dianne and I would encourage the owner to register it.

If all health issues were reported, it would be a far more effective tool fo us as breeders to use to determine which way to go in our programs. If we had a bitch or dog that starte producing prodigy with a particular health issue, we would want to be the first to know so that we could make informed decisions on how to proceed.

PHR is a tool. And, as with any too, one needs to know how to use it. It can really help when used in the right way.
_


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## bigredpoodle

spoospirit said:


> _As a breeder, I believe that all health issues should be reported to PHR. If any of our puppies were to be diagnosed with a health issue, Dianne and I would encourage the owner to register it.
> 
> If all health issues were reported, it would be a far more effective tool fo us as breeders to use to determine which way to go in our programs. If we had a bitch or dog that starte producing prodigy with a particular health issue, we would want to be the first to know so that we could make informed decisions on how to proceed.
> 
> PHR is a tool. And, as with any too, one needs to know how to use it. It can really help when used in the right way.
> _


I agree 100% Deb ! 100% .... If we dont know how can we as breeders possible avoid it . Imagine after building an entire foundation only to find out it is on quicksand .. OMG !!!!!! How horrible that would feel....
I remember all the leatherstockings put downs .. Man if I had listened to that crap I would not have Candy who I adore. Her brother that is now tow . And Rhett...
I know you had bad luck But they did a TON of breeding and sh** happens....I hope you put yours on the registry ?


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## spoospirit

_I have the paper work all printed out. When I went to fill it out I realize I did an opps!! I sent Taffy's file folder down to Virginia with her with the document showing her results. 

I am working on getting it or a copy of it back so that I can complete the paperwork and get it filed with PHR. Since that line has so much hip displasia in it, I really need to get this finished.

Normally, I have all of the spoos documents scanned into my computer in a folder for each one. Things happened quickly and we were dealing with Lyme Disease in all but Grace and it just slipped through the crack. I never scanned it.

My bad! But, I will fix it._


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## Olie

Tux did place the information on PHR. She really moved quickly once she learned the importance of it.


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## spoospirit

_Yes, she did. And, I am very grateful for people like her who have the integrity to do what is good for all._


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## Keithsomething

I'm happy she reported it as well, I don't think any health issue in this breed should go unreported...

Epilepsy is a terrible disorder, but its one of the pitfalls that comes along with this breed...hopefully one day it can have a DNA test like VwD and DM so we can help eradicate it from the breed we all love so much

I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database...that was a majority making an assumption...as they always do ;P

ETA 


> Idiopathic epilepsy (also called "primary" epilepsy) can occur in all varieties of Poodles, as well as at least 25 other breeds of dogs. Research indicates that idiopathic epilepsy is inherited. Recent studies by the Poodle Epilepsy Project at Florida State University suggest that at least in some bloodlines of Standard Poodles, idiopathic epilepsy is inherited as a "recessive" disorder. That is, both parents must pass down a defective copy of the gene to an offspring in order for that offspring to have seizures. However, neither parent needs to have seizures in order to pass down a defective copy of the gene. Two "carriers," each of whom possesses one good copy and one defective copy of the gene, can produce offspring with seizures if they are mated with each other. Because there are many factors that can cause seizures besides idiopathic epilepsy (such as metabolic disorders, poisoning, infectious disorders that affect the brain, etc.), it is important for dogs with seizures to get a thorough diagnostic work-up to determine if any of these other factors are causing the dog’s seizures.


PHR : Epilepsy


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## Countryboy

I had a Grand Mal seizure years ago . . . three of them actually. All preceded by migraine headaches. The only three migraines I've ever had in my life. To this day, the doctors have no idea why.

And I once knew a dog, raised by a loving family, who developed seizures during a stressful period in that family's life. Once things became more relaxed around his house, the seizures never repeated. 

Epilepsy!! The docs don't know . . I sure don't know. All I know is that it would be nice to find a cure for it!!


----------



## Rowan

My breeder told me that my oversized miniature poodle's father had a seizure _once_. It happened during grooming, following an "attack" by other pack members when she put him back on the floor. (He was neutered and retired and there were two stud dogs in the room waiting their turn on the grooming table.) 

The seizure was apparently fear-induced as the vet couldn't find anything wrong with him and it was his first and last seizure. 

This is way off topic but hopefully interesting nonetheless. We have a former military guy in my office who has seizures due to a traumatic brain injury sustained in Iraq. He has a seizure-detecting service dog who can actually tell when he's going to have a seizure. The dog is trained to break his fall and keep him "safe" if he falls. It's amazing. 

Does anyone know if a person with epilepsy (or a dog for that matter) can tell if a seizure is coming on? I've heard people say their dogs become agitated.


----------



## Keithsomething

I'm not sure if a dog would be able to tell if they have a seizure coming on...I wonder if they would start acting odd prior to it?

I've heard with people that some have headaches (like Countryboy said) and others get an almost tunnel vision, then I've heard of cases where people can't remember almost 30min before the seizure occurred...its weird the differences that can happen


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## bigredpoodle

Keithsomething said:


> I'm happy she reported it as well, I don't think any health issue in this breed should go unreported...
> 
> Epilepsy is a terrible disorder, but its one of the pitfalls that comes along with this breed...hopefully one day it can have a DNA test like VwD and DM so we can help eradicate it from the breed we all love so much
> 
> I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database...that was a majority making an assumption...as they always do ;P
> 
> ETA
> 
> PHR : Epilepsy


Thanks for the infomation ! However as opposed to other breeds it is rarer in Poodles than some other breeds. So if now we are mindful to remove affected dogs from the breeding pool we can put our foot in the door so speak ...Stop it now .. If we see one or more in a line (Thank you PHR) Do not use the dog.. For any reason .....
Just because they are a Ch does not mean they are a breed-able healthy animal ...IMHO


----------



## spoospirit

_Since there is no DNA test for this, the door does have to be left open for various ways in which an animal can be affected. It is not a heredity based only problem. 

Since this is an imperfect world and there is no exact science to determine how epilepsy is showing up in any individual dog I like having a registry where we can at least track those who are affected.

If a puppy of mine is reported to me or to PHR for epilepsy, I will certainly take notice and be contacting other puppy owners from that breeding to see how their dogs are doing. If I find that there is more than one puppy affected from that mating, I will be taking a very serious look at the bitch and the dog, their other offspring and siblings to try to find where it originated from. I would definitely want to pull the bitch or dog carrying it or both if necessary from my program. 

I would rather err on the side of removing a dog than take the chance of putting more get on the ground to suffer along with their owners._


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## Countryboy

Rowan said:


> Does anyone know if a person with epilepsy (or a dog for that matter) can tell if a seizure is coming on? I've heard people say their dogs become agitated.


A person?? Absolutely.... There's a few common precursors to seizures. Odd odours, or flashing lites . . called scintillations . . are two of them. I would think that dogs might have them too.


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## spoospirit

_I have read from communication with other owners of poodles that they do exhibit signs before a seizure; which is very helpful to the owners as they can prepare for it. _


----------



## bigredpoodle

spoospirit said:


> _Since there is no DNA test for this, the door does have to be left open for various ways in which an animal can be affected. It is not a heredity based only problem.
> 
> Since this is an imperfect world and there is no exact science to determine how epilepsy is showing up in any individual dog I like having a registry where we can at least track those who are affected.
> 
> If a puppy of mine is reported to me or to PHR for epilepsy, I will certainly take notice and be contacting other puppy owners from that breeding to see how their dogs are doing. If I find that there is more than one puppy affected from that mating, I will be taking a very serious look at the bitch and the dog, their other offspring and siblings to try to find where it originated from. I would definitely want to pull the bitch or dog carrying it or both if necessary from my program.
> 
> I would rather err on the side of removing a dog than take the chance of putting more get on the ground to suffer along with their owners._


Exactly, and that is why it is so important to register with PHR . With just one well explain it away but two or three. HMMM Neuter and spay . No two words about it .
So had you checked with PHR prior to buying your girl, you would not have purchased her. Same is with breeding. If we can avoid . By all means then we should.. PERIOD.........I like the way you think Deb !


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

spoospirit said:


> _I have read from communication with other owners of poodles that they do exhibit signs before a seizure; which is very helpful to the owners as they can prepare for it. _


Vic can always tell before she has a seizure. The very first seizure she ever had, I was out in my backyard with her and she was up on the side of a big hill. She turned and looked at me, started to walk towards me. Her gaze was directly into my eyes and so strong.. I guess the best way I can describe it is that I felt I couldn't look away. I was talking with a friend on the phone and still remember my exact words. "Oh Sh**! There's something wrong with Vic!" As I said this, I started moving towards her fast, I don't think either of us ever blinked! The next words out of my mouth were "She's screaming "HELP ME!"" In retrospect this sounds kind of silly, because she never made a sound, but ever bit of her focus, her attention, was crying for help. Vic and I are very, very close, more than just poodle/owner. In many aspects I put her on an even level as myself and on more than one occasion have had to put trust in her that most people wouldn't consider. When Vic "says" something, I listen. As Vic and I moved closer together, she started dragging a hind leg, so my next thought was that she had injured it, still not to her, the leg gave out and she went down in the hind end.. and still had my gaze, trying to pull herself along with her front legs, As I got to her side, she collapsed all the way and the seizure began. She has grand mal seizures which can be pretty dramatic, obviously a full loss of consciousness as well as loss of bowel and bladder. Most of her seizures have a very similar pattern. She knows when she is going to have one and she actively seeks me out. The exceptions to that are three seizures she had under stressful situations, two were triggered by dog attacks and the third was triggered by a car accident. Most of the time, I can't identify triggers.. except for.. sigh...Dairy Queen Hot Fudge. Let her get a taste of it and she'll seize every time. It's not the chocolate as she isn't overly sensitive to chocolate and she doesn't get enough hot fudge that it should be a problem, but needless to say, Dairy Queen is out when Vic is with me.
From the time Vic "tells" me she is going to seize, til the time she actually does it is usually less than three minutes. That's enough to make sure she's in an area where she's safe.


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## Keithsomething

Yadda the bond between Vic and yourself sounds so strong and deep! I honestly wouldn't be able to even fathom how you felt in that moment when she first started to seize...but I'm so happy to hear Vic has such a great friend in you and obviously trusts you to actively search you out before the siezure!

Do you think mosts dogs know something is amiss before they have a siezure or is it only in special cases that they exhibit these signs?


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## Spencer

As for warning signs:

Our first grey had what we thought were seizures (which actually turned out to be strokes), she was always a bit grumpy a few hours before, and RIGHT before she would always come and find someone (usually me, because I was a teenager and at home). I will never forget turning to see her come across the bridge to the loft and rushing to her because I knew something was wrong. She stumbled into the curio cabinet a breath before I made it to her, but was lucid enough for me to carry her all the way downstairs and into my tiny beetle to rush to the vet. That was an easy time, they got much, MUCH worse.

Sweet girl, she is so missed! <3

Before T gets to the point where he has any seizures (his are not epileptic though) he walks with his head VERY LOW, like he just can't hold it up, slow moving, is very lethargic/cuddly, as well as he seems mildly disoriented and will walk right in to my legs or can't figure out how to get around a barrier to get to me. We avoided catastophy a few weeks ago because I was able to recognize this time what he did last time, but just thought he was acting a little funny - and would go back to "normal".

While I think a most dogs have small warning signs and many can tell something is off themselves, it definitely helps to know them as an owner. There is nothing worse than not being able to take away that hurt from our beloved pets, but it helps to be able to prevent it as much as possible and step to action as soon as something goes awry.


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## Countryboy

OK ... It might be helpful for all of u to know abt the onset of a Grand Mal seizure in humans, so may have some understanding of what a dog may be going thru.

The initial sign *with me* was stars . . . multi-colored and flickering *scintillating*. These will start around the periphery of yr vision and gradually morph into solid shapes that can both grow in size and 'move'. Like from one area of your vision they may slowly 'climb' up yr field of vision, or across, or both . . usually increasing in size.

But whatever these precursors are, they can be a lengthy process. Maybe up to 1/2 an hour in duration. The 'tunnel vision' part is not a 'sign' of an impending seizure . . . that's yr body shutting down, and starting by shutting down yr vision. Once yr sight starts to 'gray out' u've only got seconds before unconsciousness.

And then last nite I thot of another aspect of these seizures. On my three incidents, that took a while to build, with a never before experienced migraine, and these visual hallucinations, I panicked . . and went into a seizure. 

Sometime after I was home from the hospital, I experienced these scintillations again. But now I knew what they were, and did my best to remain calm. The result was a full range of the hallucinations, but no seizure. That trick worked twice and I've never experienced it again. 

So . . . dogs staring, or blinking??? Yup . . could easily be a sign that their vision is starting to go wonky. If yr dog has a history, and if u catch the signs in time, it can't be harmful to do whatever u can to try to keep them calm. It might work.

But also, many people have experienced seizures and not been rushed to medical attention. With proper supervision, they will go thru the seizure and come out of it unharmed. Choking is the main thing that u want to prevent so get them on their side so their tongue is hanging out of their mouth and not collapsing back into it.

I would think twice abt grabbing a large dog in seizure and rushing him anywhere. IMO it would be more productive to sit beside them, while they're on their side on the floor, speak softly, pet them . . . and wait 'til the seizure passes.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles

OTE=Countryboy;183621]OK ... It might be helpful for all of u to know abt the onset of a Grand Mal seizure in humans, so may have some understanding of what a dog may be going thru.

The initial sign *with me* was stars . . . multi-colored and flickering *scintillating*. These will start around the periphery of yr vision and gradually morph into solid shapes that can both grow in size and 'move'. Like from one area of your vision they may slowly 'climb' up yr field of vision, or across, or both . . usually increasing in size.
In humans, many people call them "auras" and they vary from person to person, with some people smelling unusual odors, visual disturbances are very common, some people will feel things that aren't real. Of course our dogs can't tell us what they are experiencing, but in my experience, something different enough goes on with them that they are able to let us know. In humans, it has been theorized that the body electricity changes, or that there are glucose changes.. but it is the aura that seizure alert dogs tend to pick up on and often they are aware that their human partner is going to seize before the human is and that is how they "warn" the partner.

But whatever these precursors are, they can be a lengthy process. Maybe up to 1/2 an hour in duration. The 'tunnel vision' part is not a 'sign' of an impending seizure . . . that's yr body shutting down, and starting by shutting down yr vision. Once yr sight starts to 'gray out' u've only got seconds before unconsciousness.

And then last nite I thot of another aspect of these seizures. On my three incidents, that took a while to build, with a never before experienced migraine, and these visual hallucinations, I panicked . . and went into a seizure. That had to be terrifying! There was a post here where I had talked about Vic's dog park seizure and "re-triggering". The extra stimulation caused the seizures to start again.. in your case, I wonder if the panic was a possible trigger? 

Sometime after I was home from the hospital, I experienced these scintillations again. But now I knew what they were, and did my best to remain calm. The result was a full range of the hallucinations, but no seizure. That trick worked twice and I've never experienced it again. Good for you! Fingers crossed you'll never, ever experience it again. Do be aware, if you ever have to have any medical procedures that certain medications can lower seizure threshold. Make sure all involved with your care are aware of that

So . . . dogs staring, or blinking??? Yup . . could easily be a sign that their vision is starting to go wonky. If yr dog has a history, and if u catch the signs in time, it can't be harmful to do whatever u can to try to keep them calm. It might work.

But also, many people have experienced seizures and not been rushed to medical attention. With proper supervision, they will go thru the seizure and come out of it unharmed. Choking is the main thing that u want to prevent so get them on their side so their tongue is hanging out of their mouth and not collapsing back into it.Seizures are dramatic, and frightening, but seizures that are actually harmful are the exception more than the rule. If a person can be positioned on their side, ideally, their left side.. well that's good as it does help protect the airway. Wouldn't really want their tongue hanging out, because they could bite it, but if it is hanging out... LEAVE IT ALONE, or reposition them.. they could bite YOU unknowingly. Tongues are fairly easy to repair, fingers and infections from bites are not. Same goes for dogs. Remember not to do anything that is stressful for whomever/whatever is seizing.. that means that you aren't going to "fight" to keep someone/dog on their side. If you can easily reposition them with NO RISK of anyone getting hurt, then okay. If not, leave well enough alone and pick up the pieces when all is done. If you are uninjured, you can pick up the pieces, but if all of a sudden, you (or whoever is trying to help) gets injured, now there are two victims.

I would think twice abt grabbing a large dog in seizure and rushing him anywhere. IMO it would be more productive to sit beside them, while they're on their side on the floor, speak softly, pet them . . . and wait 'til the seizure passes.[/QUOTE]Exactly right. When I made the comment about getting Vic somewhere safe.. safe can be the floor, vs the bed. Safe can mean an area where she isn't going to get tangled in table or chair legs. The lower amount of stress to the dog, the better. Trying to move a seizing dog.. is dangerous. It can retrigger the seizures, make them worse. The dog can be injured, the person/people trying to move the dog can be injured. If you have a bunch of good samaritans and one of them puts their hand to close to a seizing dogs mouth.. and those teeth happen to connect with that hand.. guess what? You are now the proud owner of a dog who bites. Seizures aren't taken into consideration when reporting dog bites. 

If a dog (or a human for that matter) is seizing, stay calm, make sure that they are "safe", meaning that they aren't going to fall off of something, whack something and get bruised. For dogs, if you have a video camera, video it. Keep that video for the vet. When the dog is in the post-ictal period (after the seizure), they are often a combination of extremely dazed, confused, sometimes anxious because they know something has happened, but not what and exquisitely tired. I have found that it helps if I don't move the dog,if it's still down, but I sit by them and gently stroke or use some T-Touch techniques while calmly talking to them. Often they can hear and feel before their other senses come back to them. They may try ti get up and walk.. and often will walk aimlessly, because they don't know where they are. They maybe uncoordinated and stumble or run into things. If the dog can be convinced to lay down and it is obedience trained, put them in a down and praise that behavior.. even if they've been doing it forever. It helps with the anxiety.. that they know that whatever else is happening.. they are a "Good Dog!". Don't give your dog anything to eat until they are fully functioning as you don't want them to choke. Keep a log of all seizures, time frequency, details, these are critical for vet analysis, so they can properly diagnose the type of the seizure and decide on appropriate treatment. As the dog comes around more and more, they may be ravenous (seizures can burn tremendous amounts of calories) and they may be exhausted and sleep for hours on end. So when to call the vet? (just got interrupted.... will try to finish later)


----------



## Spencer

Countryboy said:


> I would think twice abt grabbing a large dog in seizure and rushing him anywhere. IMO it would be more productive to sit beside them, while they're on their side on the floor, speak softly, pet them . . . and wait 'til the seizure passes.


These were strokes *she* had, not seizures. She was lucid through them, never losing consciousness or any other typical seizure activity like laying on her side, paddling, chewing, etc. I agree not to grab a dog while it is seizing, that's common sense.

Thooouuughhh I did totally do that when T was seizing and pulled his rag-doll body out of his crate and held him through the next one. I don't recommend it, but I definitely did it. He had been going downhill for a few days and was so weak. So glad I didn't leave that day like I had planned... I would have come back to a horrible, horrible ending.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

*Enough is enough. Part 1*



plumcrazy said:


> This thread is being reopened for comment. Please keep the discussion on topic and be aware that if posts are being reported for cause, the thread will be closed and moved again.
> 
> Thank you for your cooperation.
> 
> Barb


Barb, thank you for reopening this.

Please note that you have my respect for your position on staff, and my cooperation. 

However, if people choose to "report" this post, that is their prerogative. Whether or not it is "for cause" will clearly be your interpretation. And I will humbly suggest that personal interpretation of a situation, by ANY individual, *will* be affected by their peer groups and personal friendships. It's a fact of life that most people *should* realize.

However, I can not sit idly by and watch this situation continue without making comment on it. This thread has the ability to be very useful but only if those posting are not getting into fights with others, bashing others and especially other breeders, AND, if accurate information is allowed to be posted so people can actually get something useful out of it. This includes NOT deleting posts with don't agree with or stifling/banning members we don't agree with. (Unless the lines of legal responsibility are crossed and the posts contain libel.)

Otherwise - in the case of this thread for example - we might as well just ignore the Poodle Health Registry, as things posted in this thread relate directly to it. 

I will state as well that one thing I not only know, but can prove, is that this thread has been significantly "sanitized" before it was reopened and put back in place. You will see one example below. 
---------------------------------------------
Quotes and comments:



Keithsomething said:


> I'm happy she reported it as well, I don't think any health issue in this breed should go unreported...
> 
> Epilepsy is a terrible disorder, but its one of the pitfalls that comes along with this breed...hopefully one day it can have a DNA test like VwD and DM so we can help
> 
> eradicate it from the breed we all love so much
> 
> *I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database...that was a majority making an assumption...as they always do* ;P


Keith: Maybe you've simply missed something in this thread. But I definitely disagree with your statement here. True, no one came right out and told Tux that she should not post her results to the PHR. 

However, there are/were *numerous *posts in this thread that would leave *any* "thinking person" wondering whether or not they should post results to the PHR database. Specifically, a lot of suggestions - and even some direct comments - that it could be environmental or simply not genetic.

Examples:



Keithsomething said:


> Well from the POV...
> 
> ... *Now how much of it do you think is environmental?* because I understand that traumatizing experiences can onset _**seizures**_ (if its predisposed of course) and I don't know about for a dog but for me *living in a kennel situation from 6wks on would be pretty traumatizing *and make me quite skittish...such a sad story this boy has been through =\ I'm glad to hear he is in such an awesome home though where he is getting the care and treatment he deserves!!



You come right out and question Tux on how much of Raven's problem is "environmental". (ie: Beyond the control of the breeder.) And of course if it is environmental, one would not register it on the PHR. (Logical conclusion to what you said.)
I highlighted *seizures* because you initially posted "*epilepsy*" here, and changed it later.
Keith, would you explain to me exactly how you *know *that Raven lived in a "kennel situation from 6 weeks on" ?? Because Tux never said anything about it.
Any inquiring mind would question how a young man living in Ohio would know more about a young puppy's life in Ontario Canada, than the Owner of the dog who lives in New Brunswick Canada knows. So?



Tux said:


> *It was not me who said Raven lived in a kennel from 6 weeks until I got him at 4 1/2 months, I have no idea how he lived.* I do know he was very timid when he came here. He did not seem like he had been abused, he was not afraid of brooms, fly swatters or anything like that. He was afraid of loud noises, street traffic, etc etc, very nervous of new situations. *He was never once in a kennel after moving here,* except probably when he was in to be neutered for about 4 hours. *I didn't own a kennel at that time. *
> 
> I bought one when I got Tux, but never used it. Raven came in a very large, very nice shipping crate, which I immediately donated to an animal shelter. So far as I know Diane and Peter Welsh are very good to their dogs. I understood the puppies were whelped in their home, or foster homes, but I have never been there, so cannot say first hand. *I would never say a word against them, they were always 100% with me. I have spoken with both Diane and Peter on the phone several times. They both came across as intelligent, kind and very concerned.* They always took the time to answer any questions I had, very intelligently, I might add. I never once felt 'put off' by them or felt they didn't have time for me.
> 
> They were genuinely surprised when I called telling them Raven was diagnosed as Epileptic. *They asked what they could do, offered to replace him, there wasn't much else they could do.* I told them I didn't want anything, just wanted them to know about it. They thanked me, asked what my vet had prescribed, etc etc. They asked that I keep them informed as to how the medication was working, which I did.
> 
> Most children do not live as well as my dogs, *there is nothing stressful in their lives*, they have a pet door leading to a fenced back yard, never tied or shut outside. They come and go as they please, sleep on leather furniture or my bed. They go in the car several times a week.


I feel sorry for Tux trying to show the lack of environmental cause here. 

Truth of the matter is, depression, anxiety and stress can precipitate epileptic seizures in a person (we can probably assume dog as well) that HAS epilepsy. But they are not the cause of the epilepsy.



Princess Dollie said:


> Yeah a lot of it is environmental. *I had my beloved sheltie's head crash into a dashboard and suffered two seizures because of that.* You don't have a clue.


Another comment that suggests "environmental". Now, I'm sure that no reasonable person would EVER post epilepsy to the PHR if it surfaced some time after their dogs head smashed into the windshield of their car during an accident. It would be like posting "broken bones" to the registry after the dog slips, falls and breaks it's leg. 

Unfortunately, the wording of Princess Dollie's last sentence leaves me wondering if "You don't have a clue" means "you just never know" or, if it's in response to the previous comments in relation to Tux and saying "You don't know what the heck you're talking about". I suspect it's the former rather than the latter which suggests "you should think twice before posting things like this to the registry". Again, encouragement NOT to post it to the registry. 

***********************
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tux:
I would never say a word against them, they were always 100% with me.
*


Countryboy said:



Obviously, u've already forgotten the parts where u and yr vet have considered yrself completely free to judge them.

Click to expand...

************************
For everyone reading this thread, don't bother clicking the link beside Frank's name to see where he said this. His post has been deleted from the thread. This is just one example of how this thread has been "sanitized".

It WAS between the following two posts:
http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/14460-epilepsy-3.html#post180195
and
http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/14460-epilepsy-3.html#post180218
and, it's not the only post that's been deleted here.

I want everyone to know that I like Frank and consider him an internet friend (so I'm not taking a shot at you Frank!) but at the time he posted this, he clearly didn't agree with posting this issue to the PHR and he told Gail this. 

(COMMENT: I don't believe Countryboy is a staff member here so I can guarantee you HE did not remove his post I quoted above, just as I cannot delete any of my posts.)



Keithsomething said:


> Well as I said earlier, as a pet owner it sounds nice to discontinue a line...but from a breeding perspective how would this breed ever continue if we never bred from lines that had issues? It's responsible breeders that research pedigrees and get of the dogs they use that will have an educated guess about what they produce
> 
> It's sad that Raven has epilepsy, *but...how many of his siblings have it? And how many of the pups from the dam have it? And how many of the sires pups have it?*
> 
> *All of this must be taken into consideration before we cast stones.*..*not to mention a multitude of other things that could play into it, over vaccination?*



Continued in part 2


----------



## Tessa's Dad

*Enough is enough. Part 2*

Part 2:

Keith, with all due respect, if I was to post something like this, I'd make sure it's not rhetorical questions, nor that it's asking something the answers to are obvious. All you - or anyone else for that matter - had to do would be to go to the PHR, look up Cantope's Raven of Poe. 

You would see, *even before Tux had Raven's epilepsy added to the PHR,* that on Hollyberry's side of the line, two generations back from Hollyberry, *Gus Gus O'Shannon*, shows a "Sibling with Epilepsy". *So it clearly was already there in the PHR.* 

Now, if you still don't think anyone "implied" Tux shouldn't post this to the PHR, please explain *how else does someone take a statement like: "All of this must be taken into consideration before we cast stones"?? *

The way I read it, *"Casting stones" would be posting it to the registry. *And the things to take into consideration you'd already mentioned, suggesting there might be no "past" supporting adding it to the PHR, *and that environmental (multitude of other things) "could play into it". *



Olie said:


> Keith I personally do not disagree with you in most of your last post. There are many factors. Tux said positive things about her breeder - however it is of her opinion that breeders should discontinue their lines if incidents such as epilepsy come up.
> 
> *And also there ARE breeders that agree and have made the decision to discontinue breeding of lines that have had bloat, Epilepsy, SA,.....so its not exactly unheard of here.*
> 
> *I don't feel Tux was casting stones. I feel she has said minimal in regards to her breeder in this thread and she is sharing her story.*


Good post regarding Tux having "Said minimal in regards to her breeder". So, with everyone dumping on her, exactly how did anyone expect her to react??



Tux said:


> Olie, that was very good information.
> *My vet did a lot of tests on Raven, thyroid was one of them. His thought was to rule out as many probable causes as possible, to know the best possible treatment. All the testing proved negative as to cause. That led him to believe it was genetic. That is why he asked me to call the breeder and let them know about Raven.*
> I am not a vet so cannot elaborate on all the testing, I left that in his capable hands. I just paid the bills and relied on his course of treatment.


Looks like proper diagnostics were done on Raven which lead the vet to the genetic conclusion, as the cause. And yet this is then considered "judgemental". 



Countryboy said:


> Speaking of epilepsy . . *and with a double major in Psychology and Sociology . . .* I let Raven's breeder know my 'opinion'. That this unfortunate dog's epilepsy is entirely *situational.*


Again, nothing could be more "suggestive" that Tux should not report Raven's epilepsy to the PHR. (Actually, this goes well beyond "suggestive"). Frank, you have one hell of a good educational background, but neither you or I are brain surgeons. And the research points to "situational" being something that aggravates an already existing condition where epilepsy is concerned. Not the cause itself. 
----------------------------

Keith, with all this background, you state that "I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database"? 

This is simply not the case. It's pretty darned clear above. 

Further, from what I've seen in a large number of posts on this forum, there is clearly a tendency to "bash" a lot of breeders. Specific breeders. 

At the same time, there is a very strong tendency to protect certain others. (Breeders and members who side with them.) If I have to elaborate or explain this or "quote threads" to prove it, *then either people here are not reading, or they are wearing blinders and choosing to ignore it. *

With the posts in this thread - even considering there are a lot missing - the conversation seems well directed *to avoid bringing up a lot of issues and questions about the possibiliy of continuing breeding a potenially epileptic dogs.* 

To start with, Hollyberry was bred and produced the litter where she had Raven of Poe. Holly was still at Cantope kennel at that time. (NOTE: One of those breeders "bashed" on a regular basis here either directly or by inuendo.)

So, let me make one thing clear on this, Cantope didn't "produce" Hollyberry. Her name is Cantop Hollyberry by Kitsu. Thus, Kitsu produced Hollyberry from two of their own dogs. 

It clearly shows that reporting Raven's epilepsy to the PHR *would NOT reflect badly on Cantope as they didn't produce her. *(If anything it would reflect on Kitsu.) 

It WOULD however, reflect on any other dogs produced using Hollyberry. Admittedly, there were 9 other pups in the breeding of Hollyberry to Guinness, at Cantope, that could be affected. 

But after that:


Holly's second breeding - to Kalchan's Monet Of Chandy - appears to have been at Kalchan Kennel, and Arreau Kennel took possession of 7 of the 8 pups from the litter.
Holly's third breeding - to Dugan - produced 9 pups. Two of them - Arreau's Golden Slumber and I'll follow the sun, are in the current Aurreau breeding program.
Holly's forth breeding - to Dugan - produced 6 pups. One of them - Arreau's Rock With You - is owned by Barbara Plum. A staff member here.
Holly's fifth breeding - to Dugan - produced 8 pups. Two of them - Arreau's Drops of Jupiter, and Aurreau's Another Saturday Night, in the current breeding program.
And, Holly is, according to the Arreau Kennel website, the Matriarch of the Kennel. So, she may still produce pups yet?

*Now, if ANYONE here can sit back and tell me they can NOT see where the true concern about Gail (Tux) registering Raven's epilepsy on the PHR was, then you are simply not looking.* Or, you don't want to look.

As I said, the registration of Raven on the PHR would have almost NO impact on Cantope. And a LOT of impact on someone else. 


Worse still, I'm afraid the PHR doesn't show the full story going back through Hollyberry's line.
Gus Gus O'Shannon is listed as a "Sibling_with=epilepsy" in the PHR.
The sibling that had epilepsy, is Corsa Bella. The PHR shows she has Epilepsy. That is ALL it states for illness.
The Poodle Pedigree database however, indicates Corsa Bella has Symmetrical Lupoid Onychodystrophy (SLO), Immune Mediated Scleritis and Glaucoma.
SLO *might *be from autoimmune diseases that are pathogenetically related.
Immune Mediated Scleritis is an autoimune disease that also may be pathogenetically related.
Glaucoma *IS *genetic if primary. (Secondary would be caused by injury and would not be on the health points of the pedigree.)

Corsa Bella, appears to belong to a private owner and has not been not been bred
Pedigree: Corsa Bella Epilepsy, SLO, Immune Mediated Scleritis, glaucoma

Gus Gus,* is owned by a breeder in Shannonville, Oregon who continues to breed him and sell puppies.* ( O'Shannon AKC Standard Poodles - Home - Grants Pass, OR )
Pedigree: Gus Gus O'shannon

As I said, this thread has the ability to provide educational insight into canine epilepsy. A learning experience for the members. But not if personal biases for or against other members are going to prevail and cover up the facts. 

As for anyone reporting this post, the staff are being contacted by PM from me, regarding this post. 

All the best to everyone here if this is my last post.


----------



## Chagall's mom

*Tessa's Dad:* I appreciate the time and rigorous research you've apparently done in what I take to be an honest-to-goodness effort to educate others. For what it's worth, I sense your devotion to the breed, and your commitment to fair play.


----------



## Rowan

Chagall's Mom beat me to the punch. I also wanted to thank you for a well-researched post (two actually). It's evident you took the time to ensure what you posted is factual. And you have a way with words! It's a breath of fresh air.


----------



## Countryboy

Well I'm reportin' ya, Rich. lol 

For postin' sumthin' that I'm gonna need a couple of coffees tomorrow mornin' to even digest.


----------



## 2719

Countryboy said:


> Well I'm reportin' ya, Rich. lol
> 
> For postin' sumthin' that I'm gonna need a couple of coffees tomorrow mornin' to even digest.


Ha...I agree...wonderfully investigated...but will take a couple of readovers to get the full gist of it.


----------



## A'n'A Mom

If I may make a quick comment about the PHR... 

It is the Poodle HEALTH Registry. It's not the Poodle Genetic Disease Registry. The scientific community has not found and/or is not in agreement on the causal factors of a number of diseases and health conditions. Many of the disease write-ups on the PHR show "Mode of Inheritance: UNKNOWN". A known genetic cause is not the only reason to post to PHR. But posts of health issues can identify patterns. 

It is also useful to remember that due to the genetic bottleneck in Standard Poodles today, leading geneticists are recommending that breeders move laterally in a pedigree to carry on with their lines for diseases known or suspected of being polygenic. The breed cannot afford to discard every individual. There is an excellent paper online, a presentation made by Dr. Jerold Bell at the World Small Animal Veterinary Congress (WSAVA) in 2010. You can read it here.

Another thing that is suspected by geneticists is that within the genome are not only genes that cause a health condition to be expressed, but also genes that suppress expression of that disease. It is thought that there is a strong possibility that some individuals produce affected offspring not because there is a causal gene, but because they lack the suppressor genes. A bitch may produce an affected offspring with one stud, but not with others (and vice versa)....there are several examples of this in the PHR registered Addison's Disease affected dogs. 

One of the reasons to post health issues, good and bad, to the PHR is that with more and more information, patterns of health emerge. Every bit of information is useful.

I thank all of you who have registered health issues in your Poodles and for your support. 

Nancy


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Countryboy said:


> Well I'm reportin' ya, Rich. lol
> 
> For postin' sumthin' that I'm gonna need a couple of coffees tomorrow mornin' to even digest.


I find a double espresso when I get up does wonders for me. :eek2:



Chagall's mom said:


> *Tessa's Dad:* I appreciate the time and rigorous research you've apparently done in what I take to be an honest-to-goodness effort to educate others. For what it's worth, I sense your devotion to the breed, and your commitment to fair play.





Rowan said:


> Chagall's Mom beat me to the punch. I also wanted to thank you for a well-researched post (two actually). It's evident you took the time to ensure what you posted is factual. And you have a way with words! It's a breath of fresh air.


Thanks to both (all three) of you!


----------



## Princess Dollie

Tessa's Dad said:


> Unfortunately, the wording of Princess Dollie's last sentence leaves me wondering if "You don't have a clue" means "you just never know" or, if it's in response to the previous comments in relation to Tux and saying "You don't know what the heck you're talking about". *I suspect it's the former rather than the latter* which suggests "you should think twice before posting things like this to the registry". Again, encouragement NOT to post it to the registry.


Nope, it was the latter. Sorry for the brevity of that post which made it hard to understand. That’s what happens when I post from an iPad. It’s even worse with my iPhone…responses are usually something like “yep” and “nope”. 

If you went through this thread before it was hacked on, I believe my response was right after Keith’s musings about the unaccounted 6 weeks of Raven’s life and seizures being environmentally caused. So, *to be clear*, what I meant was that KEITH didn’t have a clue. 

I want to make sure that everyone knows that I don’t know a thing about epilepsy. That’s why I was reading the thread! But to see a good thread about an important topic being subjected to the constant inter-weaving of comments intended to throw doubt on the cause, the dog, and the owner made me sick to my stomach. 

I SAW my Sheltie bang his head on the dashboard. I SAW him have a seizure a couple of days later. I SAW him have another one. I was WITH him at the vets. And I was WITH him the rest of his life seizure free. To have someone who does not know Raven, does not know Tux, and does not know anything about epilepsy or seizures, to suddenly feel the need to offer flippant, unasked-for advice is what bothered me enough to post my comment. 

I am very saddened that extremely good, quality breeders and owners who ask thought-provoking questions have either been banned or chased away from this forum. Apparently, this forum is meant for only posting pictures of your cute puppy and then have everyone respond back with a variation on “Ooh, cute puppy”. 

Tessa’s Dad, actually this is probably a good thing – you making me log in again to comment. I have self-weaned myself away from this forum these last few weeks and have been meaning to log in again to do some housekeeping. Thank-you for your post.


----------



## Fond of Poodles

@ Tessa's Dad, I wanted to express appreciation as well for your well researched, fact based post. These posts are the ones that don't risk the poster being banned. They are educational without name calling, snide side remarks, digs at breeders or other site members...a good read, with a positive purpose - to educate. You are the kind of member this forum so desperately needs. So thank you for taking the time.

@ A'n'A Mom, I'd like to thank you as well for your posts. I have learned much from you in regards to the PHR, and you have helped me to put words to my feelings about breeding, registering health issues, and our breed as a whole.

I have a boy Raven with seizures as well, he is not registered and his breeder will not release the registered name of his dam to me. His sire was not registered but apparently his parents were. Regardless of the cause of Raven's seizures, I wouldn't hesitate to post his results to PHR.


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## spoospirit

_Tessa's Dad....thank you for taking the mess from this thread and putting it into a nice, to-the-point synopsis of sensibility. I am so grateful that you took the time and made the effort to put it all together in a very factual manner.

I enjoyed reading through your part I and part II and understood it all in one sitting; no coffee needed! :wink:_


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## liljaker

I must add that I could not read all the posts, as it had me in tears; Jake's last day on May 16th (at age 13 - 1/2) started wtih a seizure at 1:00 a.m. (I had no idea what was happening and held him in my arms throughout, and was in tears the entire time). I slept next to him and called 911 in the morning; he had another seizure at 10:00 a.m., and on the way to 911, had clusters, noon, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 and they couldn't stop them at Animal 911. My heart broke each time, and writing this is very hard. I had to make a decision, the hardest I have ever had to make, and lost my companion. The vet did not think he would have made it very long even if we could control them; no way to know what caused it -- my regular vet was in shock but doubted it was epilepsy, but something definitely was very wrong. The Great Lake Poodle Rescue had me first on their list, but the spoo was a 2 year old with epilepsy, and there was no way I could knowingly go through that. Thanks for all the good information everyone.


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## jester's mom

A'n'A Mom said:


> If I may make a quick comment about the PHR...
> 
> It is the Poodle HEALTH Registry. It's not the Poodle Genetic Disease Registry. The scientific community has not found and/or is not in agreement on the causal factors of a number of diseases and health conditions. Many of the disease write-ups on the PHR show "Mode of Inheritance: UNKNOWN". A known genetic cause is not the only reason to post to PHR. But posts of health issues can identify patterns.
> 
> It is also useful to remember that due to the genetic bottleneck in Standard Poodles today, leading geneticists are recommending that breeders move laterally in a pedigree to carry on with their lines for diseases known or suspected of being polygenic. The breed cannot afford to discard every individual. There is an excellent paper online, a presentation made by Dr. Jerold Bell at the World Small Animal Veterinary Congress (WSAVA) in 2010. You can read it here.
> 
> *Another thing that is suspected by geneticists is that within the genome are not only genes that cause a health condition to be expressed, but also genes that suppress expression of that disease. It is thought that there is a strong possibility that some individuals produce affected offspring not because there is a causal gene, but because they lack the suppressor genes. A bitch may produce an affected offspring with one stud, but not with others (and vice versa)....there are several examples of this in the PHR registered Addison's Disease affected dogs. *
> 
> One of the reasons to post health issues, good and bad, to the PHR is that with more and more information, patterns of health emerge. Every bit of information is useful.
> 
> I thank all of you who have registered health issues in your Poodles and for your support.
> 
> Nancy


Nancy, WONDERFUL information, I especially found the part I bolded red very interesting. That is a new theory to me but sounds very logical. I hope they can progress along these lines of thought and finally start to piece together what is going on. How interesting! And, the best thing is, knowledge gained through this type of research for our specific breeds/species of animals, can at times be transferred to people issues.

I believe it is very important for people to report issues they have with their dogs with whatever registry their breed has. If we are serious about wanting to reduce the chances of our puppies having serious life problems, this is a TOOL to use to help us all. Most times there is no way to definitively know if a health issue is environmentally induced or hereditarilly handed down, so it is best to put the issues "on the books" so we can all use the info to help us decide on our future breedings. And, as you say, the health issue can show up from a breeding of bitch A to dog A but not bitch A to dog B, etc., so, we should be careful of our breeding program but also should not throw the baby out with the bath water. Knowledge moves us forward; fear of letting the info be known due to possible "talk about the line" holds us back and does not help the breed at all.


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## jester's mom

Tessa's dad, I want to add my thanks to you for a wonderfully written, well researched, unbiased posting. Facts are facts and that is what we should be concerned with. Thank you!


----------



## Trillium

This is how I’ve been dealing with a possible health issue in our lines recently. When I first heard about Raven and his epilepsy through the poodle forum (we were unaware of it prior to that) I did some research into epilepsy I found out that it has a number of possible causes and is not a clear cut thing. Seizures can be caused by any of the following:

- congenital defects
- blood glucose levels that are too high or too low
- low oxygen levels in the blood that could be caused by anaemia, heart problems or difficulties with breathing
- kidney disorders
- liver disorders
- infections such as canine distemper
- brain tumours
- toxins, like antifreeze, lead or chocolate
- fevers and hyperthermia
- brain damage resulting from trauma or poor blood flow to the brain
- certain medications
- low calcium in females that are nursing young
- primary or idiopathic epilepsy

It should also be noted that lead poisoning is the most common for seizures. I have also read about a possible link to over vaccinations. I’m sure that there are other causes as well. Its also important to keep in mind that the diagnosis of idiopathic epilepsy is given when the vet doesn’t know the cause of the epilepsy and not because they do know that it is indeed a genetic issue. 

All of the above being the case I felt less worried about the situation but decided that further research was clearly indicated. I felt that really needed to research Holly’s pedigree. I did that for 10 generations and found that a sister of Holly’s grandfather had epilepsy. I didn’t find any other reported case in her pedigree. So I then looked up her grandfather’s pedigree for 10 generations. I didn’t find any other reported case of epilepsy in all those dogs other then his sister. Please note that a 10 generation vertical pedigree on phr directly includes 1023 dogs. As well as info on each dogs health it will mention any reported health issues in any of their offspring or their siblings.

So then I decided that if there was a problem with epilepsy in the lines it would probably show up in some of Holly’s other descendants. I found the following on the phr (and let us all be thankful that PHR exists and that people report on it. It is my favourite tool when looking at pedigrees and researching health issues)

Holly was bred 5 times. The first litter was born on May 11 2005 to Cantope’s Guiness this resulted in 10 pups (one of which was Raven) 2 of the pups were kept by Cantope for breeding. They were Cantope Ebony Diva Hone and Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette. Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette was bred and had a litter on Nov 9, 2006 of 9 pups. They kept a male Cantope Zoric Maximus. Meanwhile Cantope Ebony Diva Hone had a litter on Dec 27 2006 of 9 pups. She was bred again and had 7 pups on July 15, 2007. They kept a female this litter named Cantope Fine Time Lucille. She was line bred (their mothers were litter sisters) to Cantope Zoric Maximus and had 2 different litters with him on Jan 19 2009 and on Aug 12, 2009 with a total of 15 pups between the two litters. Cantope Zoric Maximus fathered 5 other litters that were born on the following dates Feb 6 2009 - 11 pups, Mar 17 2009 - 11 pups, May 10, 2009 - 10 pups, June 25 2009 - 9 pups and finally on Oct 27 2009 - 8 pups. I see from their website that they kept a pup from that litter Cantope’s Black Diamond Lawrence. They have plans to breed her as well according to their website. There may be others that they have kept for breeding but at this point I am unaware of them. If you’re not keeping track that is a total of 10 pups, 24 grand pups and 64 great grand pups totalling 98 dogs from Holly’s lines bred by Cantope. 

Holly’s second litter was on Oct 20 2006. It was fathered by Kalcan’s Monet of Chandy. She had 8 pups one of which Kalcan’s Cario of Molly was kept by Kalcan for breeding. On Oct 11, 2009 he fathered a litter of 5. He has been offered at stud there may be other litters but I’m unaware of them.

Her next three breeding were to Palmares Elegant Lion of Judah the Sept 13, 2008 litter resulted in 9 pups. Two females were kept for breeding (they are co-owned by myself and Arreau and are the furry part of my family) named Betty Jo and Jenny. Betty Jo had a litter of 5 on July 18, 2011. Arreau’s Besame Mucho Dayspring has been now bred by Dayspring 2 times I believe resulting in about 15 pups and she was also from this litter. Her other 2 litters by Palmares Elegant Lion of Judah were on Aug 31, 2009 and Sept 9 2010. They resulted in a total of 11 pups. Two puppies were retained on a co-ownership bases pending evaluation and testing for breeding from the last litter a female named Marlow and a male named Keegan.

All this means that Holly had 38 pups in total, 49 grand pups and 79 Great grand pups for a total of 166 descendants. I’ve checked and the only reported case of epilepsy was Raven.

I went further and decided to check out Gus Gus O’Shannon Holly’s grandfather. (In the process I gave myself a headache and got told I had exceeded my allowed checks on the prh for 2 days straight. To sum him up he was born on Jan 23, 1998 He fathered 14 litters the first was on May 1, 2000. The last was on June 4, 2007. In total he fathered 65 pups, 244 grand pups, 233 Great grand pups, 291 Great great grand pups, 119 Great great great grand pups, 186 Great great great great grand pups and finally 12 Great great great great great grand pups. That is a total of 1031 descendants. In all those dogs I didn’t find a single reported case of epilepsy other then Raven. 

I have concluded that epilepsy certainly doesn’t appear to be a huge problem in the line and I tend to question if there was a genetic link in the two dogs. Certainly if there was a problem with it I would have expected to find other reported cases and I simply didn’t (keep in mind that between all the offspring and the two 10 generation searches I have over the last few days looked at over 2800 dogs). Particularly as there was some line breeding from the same coupling that produced Raven. I would have expected to see something crop up there but again I didn’t. 

Holly herself has had her last litter is enjoying her retirement and has been spayed. 

Do I wish that there were no health problems in any of the dogs in Betty Jo or Jenny’s ancestry? You bet. I also wish that they were all health tested, had perfect temperaments, perfect conformations etc. However I don’t think there is a dog out there with all that so we all work with the issues we have in our particular lines and do our best to improve them. 

I’ve gotten a bit carried away and wrote a book. Thanks for following it through with me.


----------



## Olie

.....when you say that you guys were not aware or Ravens epilepsy then why didn't the breeders reach out positively to Tux and try to get some information? Instead she was questioned rudely, accused of libel and slander - BTW two different things. AND she never spoke badly of either breeders. 

I really hate that this thread was picked through and then spit back out....

Oh, and regardless its still a tough situation that Tux and Raven have had to deal with. 

I hope people learn a couple things from the leftovers of this thread. The reactions of people is very telling............


----------



## Chagall's mom

*Trillium*: I appreciate you taking the time to do the research and share your findings. It is so heartening to see this thread, which was started by a (sadly IMO) _former_ PF member, bring such important information to light in such a well-reasoned way. I am only sorry the person who started the ball rolling, out of her despair and concern for her spoo's epilepsy, is no longer a party to the discussion. It remains that we owe Tux our gratitude for sharing what she did, and Raven our concern for his continued well being.


----------



## Rowan

I agree with Chagall's Mom and would also like to thank Trillium for a well-researched and informative post. 

It just goes to prove that it's often not what you say, but how you say it. And Trillium said it well here!


----------



## Olie

Trillium said:


> Holly herself has had her last litter is enjoying her retirement and has been spayed.


This is wonderful news


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## tintlet

The biggest issue with PHR is that "most" issues are not reported. With Hips at least there is OFA, but it's also inaccurate because the 'fails" are not posted ..or even sent to OFA>

Just because it isn't posted doesn't mean its not "there"


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## Tessa's Dad

Olie said:


> .....when you say that you guys were not aware or Ravens epilepsy then why didn't the breeders reach out positively to Tux and try to get some information? Instead she was questioned rudely, accused of libel and slander - BTW two different things. AND she never spoke badly of either breeders.
> 
> I really hate that this thread was picked through and then spit back out....
> 
> Oh, and regardless its still a tough situation that Tux and Raven have had to deal with.
> 
> I hope people learn a couple things from the leftovers of this thread. The reactions of people is very telling............


The missing info doesn't help, Olie.

Actually, Tux said that Cantope were very helpful and offered to replace Raven. But there was no way she could give him back. Cantope was the only breeder she dealt with. (In her introduction thread.)

So, now worries there. 

I didn't see anything about lawsuits. Maybe that was someone else and it's been deleted. 


TD


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Trillium said:


> This is how I’ve been dealing with a possible health issue in our lines recently. When I first heard about Raven and his epilepsy through the poodle forum (we were unaware of it prior to that) I did some research into epilepsy I found out that it has a number of possible causes and is not a clear cut thing. Seizures can be caused by any of the following:
> 
> - congenital defects
> - blood glucose levels that are too high or too low
> - low oxygen levels in the blood that could be caused by anaemia, heart problems or difficulties with breathing
> - kidney disorders
> - liver disorders
> - infections such as canine distemper
> - brain tumours
> - toxins, like antifreeze, lead or chocolate
> - fevers and hyperthermia
> - brain damage resulting from trauma or poor blood flow to the brain
> - certain medications
> - low calcium in females that are nursing young
> - primary or idiopathic epilepsy
> 
> It should also be noted that lead poisoning is the most common for seizures. I have also read about a possible link to over vaccinations. I’m sure that there are other causes as well. Its also important to keep in mind that the diagnosis of idiopathic epilepsy is given when the vet doesn’t know the cause of the epilepsy and not because they do know that it is indeed a genetic issue.
> 
> All of the above being the case I felt less worried about the situation but decided that further research was clearly indicated. I felt that really needed to research Holly’s pedigree. I did that for 10 generations and found that a sister of Holly’s grandfather had epilepsy. I didn’t find any other reported case in her pedigree. So I then looked up her grandfather’s pedigree for 10 generations. I didn’t find any other reported case of epilepsy in all those dogs other then his sister. Please note that a 10 generation vertical pedigree on phr directly includes 1023 dogs. As well as info on each dogs health it will mention any reported health issues in any of their offspring or their siblings.
> 
> So then I decided that if there was a problem with epilepsy in the lines it would probably show up in some of Holly’s other descendants. I found the following on the phr (and let us all be thankful that PHR exists and that people report on it. It is my favourite tool when looking at pedigrees and researching health issues)
> 
> Holly was bred 5 times. The first litter was born on May 11 2005 to Cantope’s Guiness this resulted in 10 pups (one of which was Raven) 2 of the pups were kept by Cantope for breeding. They were Cantope Ebony Diva Hone and Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette. Cantope Ebony Zoe Paquette was bred and had a litter on Nov 9, 2006 of 9 pups. They kept a male Cantope Zoric Maximus. Meanwhile Cantope Ebony Diva Hone had a litter on Dec 27 2006 of 9 pups. She was bred again and had 7 pups on July 15, 2007. They kept a female this litter named Cantope Fine Time Lucille. She was line bred (their mothers were litter sisters) to Cantope Zoric Maximus and had 2 different litters with him on Jan 19 2009 and on Aug 12, 2009 with a total of 15 pups between the two litters. Cantope Zoric Maximus fathered 5 other litters that were born on the following dates Feb 6 2009 - 11 pups, Mar 17 2009 - 11 pups, May 10, 2009 - 10 pups, June 25 2009 - 9 pups and finally on Oct 27 2009 - 8 pups. I see from their website that they kept a pup from that litter Cantope’s Black Diamond Lawrence. They have plans to breed her as well according to their website. There may be others that they have kept for breeding but at this point I am unaware of them. If you’re not keeping track that is a total of 10 pups, 24 grand pups and 64 great grand pups totalling 98 dogs from Holly’s lines bred by Cantope.
> 
> Holly’s second litter was on Oct 20 2006. It was fathered by Kalcan’s Monet of Chandy. She had 8 pups one of which Kalcan’s Cario of Molly was kept by Kalcan for breeding. On Oct 11, 2009 he fathered a litter of 5. He has been offered at stud there may be other litters but I’m unaware of them.
> 
> Her next three breeding were to Palmares Elegant Lion of Judah the Sept 13, 2008 litter resulted in 9 pups. Two females were kept for breeding (they are co-owned by myself and Arreau and are the furry part of my family) named Betty Jo and Jenny. Betty Jo had a litter of 5 on July 18, 2011. Arreau’s Besame Mucho Dayspring has been now bred by Dayspring 2 times I believe resulting in about 15 pups and she was also from this litter. Her other 2 litters by Palmares Elegant Lion of Judah were on Aug 31, 2009 and Sept 9 2010. They resulted in a total of 11 pups. Two puppies were retained on a co-ownership bases pending evaluation and testing for breeding from the last litter a female named Marlow and a male named Keegan.
> 
> All this means that Holly had 38 pups in total, 49 grand pups and 79 Great grand pups for a total of 166 descendants. I’ve checked and the only reported case of epilepsy was Raven.
> 
> I went further and decided to check out Gus Gus O’Shannon Holly’s grandfather. (In the process I gave myself a headache and got told I had exceeded my allowed checks on the prh for 2 days straight. To sum him up he was born on Jan 23, 1998 He fathered 14 litters the first was on May 1, 2000. The last was on June 4, 2007. In total he fathered 65 pups, 244 grand pups, 233 Great grand pups, 291 Great great grand pups, 119 Great great great grand pups, 186 Great great great great grand pups and finally 12 Great great great great great grand pups. That is a total of 1031 descendants. In all those dogs I didn’t find a single reported case of epilepsy other then Raven.
> 
> I have concluded that epilepsy certainly doesn’t appear to be a huge problem in the line and I tend to question if there was a genetic link in the two dogs. Certainly if there was a problem with it I would have expected to find other reported cases and I simply didn’t (keep in mind that between all the offspring and the two 10 generation searches I have over the last few days looked at over 2800 dogs). Particularly as there was some line breeding from the same coupling that produced Raven. I would have expected to see something crop up there but again I didn’t.
> 
> Holly herself has had her last litter is enjoying her retirement and has been spayed.
> 
> Do I wish that there were no health problems in any of the dogs in Betty Jo or Jenny’s ancestry? You bet. I also wish that they were all health tested, had perfect temperaments, perfect conformations etc. However I don’t think there is a dog out there with all that so we all work with the issues we have in our particular lines and do our best to improve them.
> 
> I’ve gotten a bit carried away and wrote a book. Thanks for following it through with me.


Ah, very good grasshopper! You have snatched the pebble from my hand!










Excellent work!


----------



## Fond of Poodles

Thanks for taking the time Trillium to write such an extensive report on Holly. It really does show how sometimes we get hung up on health issues/genetic problems that are pinpointed in a line without taking into consideration the hundreds of dogs that may have been healthy. With bloat and epilepsy, it is particularly hard to determine cause.

In my search for a stud dog, it seems I've definitely had it made clear to me that there are no lines clear of health concerns. And yes, it does come down to calculated risk when trying to determine the safest course of action when breeding to any dog that's come down from a Top Producer (for example).


----------



## FozziesMom

Just a quick note to say we had a toy poodle in our family with epilepsy. he was diagnosed as a puppy, was on phenobarbitol his whole life and lived to be 19! He was blind, but otherwise in fantastic health til the end. they CAN live a normal life.


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## Fond of Poodles

TD, Ollie 

What purpose does it serve to put all the "nasty" posts back up? They did not provide educational information regarding the health of our breed. They created a rift in this forum that caused several members to be banned and several others to leave of their own free will. Why do we want to re-hash the he said, she said portion of the thread?

Epilepsy and to some extent PHR are the subjects of the thread, I believe that the admin has kept that information intact.


----------



## Olie

Fond of Poodles said:


> TD, Ollie
> 
> What purpose does it serve to put all the "nasty" posts back up? They did not provide educational information regarding the health of our breed. They created a rift in this forum that caused several members to be banned and several others to leave of their own free will. Why do we want to re-hash the he said, she said portion of the thread?
> 
> Epilepsy and to some extent PHR are the subjects of the thread, I believe that the admin has kept that information intact.


First of all - The last thing I want to do is rehash some of that nonsense. I took part in it and agree some of it was NOT and would NOT be worth bringing back, however some important items on posts were lost.....in many peoples opinions and if you disagree, fine that's fair. But do not imply something I am not attempting to do! - I can speak for myself just fine.

FP if you want the mod job - APPLY FOR IT


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## Fond of Poodles

Good idea!


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## Keithsomething

Fond of Poodles...YES PLEASE!!! I second the vote


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## Olie

I agree!! After the PM I got from her she will fit perfectly as a MOD


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## Tessa's Dad

Fond of Poodles said:


> TD, Ollie
> 
> What purpose does it serve to put all the "nasty" posts back up? They did not provide educational information regarding the health of our breed. They created a rift in this forum that caused several members to be banned and several others to leave of their own free will. Why do we want to re-hash the he said, she said portion of the thread?
> 
> Epilepsy and to some extent PHR are the subjects of the thread, I believe that the admin has kept that information intact.


Well, I guess the point of my post was missed on some folks. 

First of all, I didn't put any posts "back up" as they were already still here in the thread. (With the exception of one post of Franks that was deleted.)

And, I didn't put the post up to re-hash the stuff. I titled my post "Enough is Enough". Not "Let's open up a can of Whoop A#%"

If you look back on page 5 of the thread, Barb re-opened this thread at 4:24 PM on August 2. The next few posts were fine and informative. 

Then at 8:35 PM, Keith added: _I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database...that was a majority making an assumption...as they always do ;P

_The first part wasn't an issue to me. The last part about majority making assumptions and the text equivalent of :aetsch: at the end of the line just didn't sit well with me. 

I never saw this thread before the first posts were removed and it was bad enough then. The threats of lawsuits and everything that went on here were clearly over the line. Keith's comment does NOT ring true if you look at the posts I quoted. As I said, no one came right out in the public forum and told her not to register Raven on the PHR but the implication is clearly there. 

I'm sorry you see my post the way you do but I just wanted to stop things in their tracks before it took off again. Interesting phrase by the way. "That was a majority making an assumption". 

So what do I understand from this? The "majority" was wrong? And then to add: "AS USUAL"?? Very nice. Maybe in 2012 the candidate with the *fewer *votes should become President? 

FOP: I find it interesting that you decided to address me for my post in trying to shut anything down before it started in this thread, but no one said anything to Keith for his comments.

(I'm not picking on you Keith but comments like that are not received well by me. I'm sure they are not by others either. )

But hey, If I'm missing something here, by all means, enlighten me.


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## Rowan

Fond of Poodles said:


> TD, Ollie
> 
> What purpose does it serve to put all the "nasty" posts back up? They did not provide educational information regarding the health of our breed. They created a rift in this forum that caused several members to be banned and several others to leave of their own free will. Why do we want to re-hash the he said, she said portion of the thread?
> 
> Epilepsy and to some extent PHR are the subjects of the thread, I believe that the admin has kept that information intact.


I have to agree to some extent. When I first joined this forum, I felt like the transfer student walking out onto the elementary school playground. I'd never seen such rude behavior on a forum before, or so many cliques or tag-team posting. It turned my stomach. I have to say it has improved of late. The posts are much more civil and for the most part, productive and informative. 

I do have to speak up for Tessa's Dad though. I didn't mind his posts at all because they were, a) well researched, b) well written, c) informative/educational, and d) he presented his ideas and opinions in a polite and productive manner. On that note, while I don't expect every post to be perfectly written, it helps when members don't resort to calling the opposition's opinions/views as "idiotic" and "ridiculous" as I've seen numerous times on here and related forums. 

[There's a lot to be said for a well written, grammatically correct post. IMHO, it ensures the message isn't lost in translation. This isn't to say you have to painstakingly edit your posts--it means think before you post.] 

TD gets high praise in my book for being able to engage in polite debate. He's proof that the art of communication is alive and well!


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## Fond of Poodles

PM sent.


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## spoospirit

Tessa's Dad said:


> Well, I guess the point of my post was missed on some folks.
> 
> First of all, I didn't put any posts "back up" as they were already still here in the thread. (With the exception of one post of Franks that was deleted.)
> 
> And, I didn't put the post up to re-hash the stuff. I titled my post "Enough is Enough". Not "Let's open up a can of Whoop A#%"
> 
> If you look back on page 5 of the thread, Barb re-opened this thread at 4:24 PM on August 2. The next few posts were fine and informative.
> 
> Then at 8:35 PM, Keith added: _I'd also like to point out that NO ONE was implying that she shouldn't post her results to PHR or any other database...that was a majority making an assumption...as they always do ;P
> 
> _The first part wasn't an issue to me. The last part about majority making assumptions and the text equivalent of :aetsch: at the end of the line just didn't sit well with me.
> 
> I never saw this thread before the first posts were removed and it was bad enough then. The threats of lawsuits and everything that went on here were clearly over the line. Keith's comment does NOT ring true if you look at the posts I quoted. As I said, no one came right out in the public forum and told her not to register Raven on the PHR but the implication is clearly there.
> 
> I'm sorry you see my post the way you do but I just wanted to stop things in their tracks before it took off again. Interesting phrase by the way. "That was a majority making an assumption".
> 
> So what do I understand from this? The "majority" was wrong? And then to add: "AS USUAL"?? Very nice. Maybe in 2012 the candidate with the *fewer *votes should become President?
> 
> FOP: I find it interesting that you decided to address me for my post in trying to shut anything down before it started in this thread, but no one said anything to Keith for his comments.
> 
> (I'm not picking on you Keith but comments like that are not received well by me. I'm sure they are not by others either. )
> 
> But hey, If I'm missing something here, by all means, enlighten me.


_Keith's post did, indeed, show up right after the clean-up. I was upset to see that it was not moderated as it was, without a doubt, inflammatory and likely to stir the pot yet again. I couldn't help but wonder why this went untouched as I feel that I am a member of "that majority" and was insulted by it. By all rights, it should have been cleaned up as well with a warning sent to him.

Now, If I had posted that, I would have received my third and final warning. So what is going on here? The only reason I did not respond is because I am a whisker away from being banned from PF forever. I'm glad that you addressed it, Tessa's Dad. It was totally inappropriate, had nothing to do with PHR and was definitely meant to create, yet again, drama; which is against PF rules.

BTW...a winking emoticon does not make the comment okay!_


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## Fond of Poodles

Unfortunately the internet leaves much to be desired when expressing emotions, and intentions. It's difficult to accurately interpret every posting. 

There was no response or complaint to Keith's posting on the 8th of Aug. until TD posted an objection on the 21st of Aug. My guess is that they didn't receive any reports of a problem, nor did any members of the forum appear to have any objection and as such it didn't appear to them or to others to be an inflammatory comment.


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## Chagall's mom

Fond of Poodles said:


> Unfortunately the internet leaves much to be desired when expressing emotions, and intentions. It's difficult to accurately interpret every posting.
> 
> There was no response or complaint to Keith's posting on the 8th of Aug. until TD posted an objection on the 21st of Aug. My guess is that they didn't receive any reports of a problem, nor did any members of the forum appear to have any objection and as such it didn't appear to them or to others to be an inflammatory comment.


I agree with your first paragraph, 100%! 

In regard to your second, just for the record, I'd like to say_ I did indeed see Keith's comment as being inflammatory when it appeared._ After two years of watching the players, I expected nothing less. I also did not expect him to get his wrist slapped, or any other disciplinary measure, so it didn't seem worth it to me to pursue a complaint. Since the door has now been opened, however, I am using the opportunity to speak my mind. I'm guessing I am not the lone wolf in this; apparently I'm at least "wolf three"!

I hope posts the caliber of TD's and Trillium's shared research ones get more air time than the juvenile nonsense going further. Also, I recently noticed a prior thread begun by Randi6567, "New puppy having seizures," where much good information was exchanged in a civil manner, albeit with some differences of opinion, and no one took up after the OP. I'm just sayin'....

Ahh, that felt good! Thanks FOP for letting me get that off my chest!!


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## Rowan

And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

EPILEPSY, the disease.


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## Tessa's Dad

Fond of Poodles said:


> Unfortunately the internet leaves much to be desired when expressing emotions, and intentions. It's difficult to accurately interpret every posting.
> 
> There was no response or complaint to Keith's posting on the 8th of Aug. until TD posted an objection on the 21st of Aug. My guess is that they didn't receive any reports of a problem, nor did any members of the forum appear to have any objection and as such it didn't appear to them or to others to be an inflammatory comment.


Or, that long-winded guy with the lengthy post on the 21st, had been asleep and didn't see the post from the 8th all that time. 

OR, he was oblivious to the fact that the thread had been re-opened... You just never know. :ahhhhh:


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## bigredpoodle

This is a terrible threat to our wonderful breed and I hope that those that have it in their lines will be mindful, to either breed away or eliminate (Spay/Neuter) the producers..


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## Keithsomething

bigredpoodle said:


> This is a terrible threat to our wonderful breed and I hope that those that have it in their lines will be mindful, to either breed away or eliminate (Spay/Neuter) the producers..


Yes well as I've said before a real breeder would never take one case of anything and kill off a whole line because of it...one of my mentors (you know that guy who has pioneered the reds?) has given me more sage advice on this topic and it astounds me the amount of people who feel it would be a good idea to spay and neuter a whole line because of ONE bad combination...I feel bad for the dog that is sick and his owner...

Bigred, I'm curious if we're talking about having a line with problems fixed could you enlighten us on Rojo? I was told 3 separate ways as to what contributed to his death :/


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## bigredpoodle

Keithsomething said:


> Yes well as I've said before a real breeder would never take one case of anything and kill off a whole line because of it...one of my mentors (you know that guy who has pioneered the reds?) has given me more sage advice on this topic and it astounds me the amount of people who feel it would be a good idea to spay and neuter a whole line because of ONE bad combination...I feel bad for the dog that is sick and his owner...
> 
> Bigred, I'm curious if we're talking about having a line with problems fixed could you enlighten us on Rojo? I was told 3 separate ways as to what contributed to his death :/


Thanks for your thoughts/input.. As I said *BREED AWAY* or Spay/Nueter, never throw the baby out with the bathwater. Education into the pedigree is tantamount. Rojo died from ingesting poison . This is still a very painful memory for me. He is missed everyday here. I have his granddaughter sitting on my lap right now. ( What a blessing she is ) I still get tears just thinking about how cruel life can be..


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## Keithsomething

I get the feeling your post wasn't meant that way though...because this bitch hasn't been bred back to that BROWN dog since...so she's being bred away from the illness...and her puppies are being bred in another different direction. How far away can one breed away from illnesses in standard poodles? This breed is plagued by them and if a breeding has only resulted in ONE case of an illness HALLELUJAH!>.>

I'm sorry for your loss Sheryl, it's never easy to lose a dear family member...you have a granddaughter from a dog who would have been 4?


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## bigredpoodle

Keithsomething said:


> I get the feeling your post wasn't meant that way though...because this bitch hasn't been bred back to that BROWN dog since...so she's being bred away from the illness...and her puppies are being bred in another different direction. How far away can one breed away from illnesses in standard poodles? This breed is plagued by them and if a breeding has only resulted in ONE case of an illness HALLELUJAH!>.>
> 
> I'm sorry for your lose Sheryl, it's never easy to loose a dear family member...you have a granddaughter from a dog who would have been 4?


*Brown ? I do not breed brown Just Red....*Not sure what this is meant to mean ???? Please explain .....
This is an Epilepsy thread correct? And i know you meant loss , right? To lose mean perhaps you will find it....Loss is forever....Thanks for your kind words.....
And yes that is correct..... It was very tragic.. .. Thank god for my little Rosie.....


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## Keithsomething

Well if you had taken the time to read the thread you would have known what that was meant to mean Sheryl...(...my apologies for a typo, appreciate you fixing my grammar ;D ) I wasn't implying you bred browns, that was an assumption on your part
the puppy this thread was about was from a RED to BROWN breeding (done by Cantope) which produced a whole litter of BLACKS, one of the blacks owned by Tux suffers from Epilepsy...all of that information is at the beginning of the thread

How old is Rosie?


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## bigredpoodle

Well, Keith I did read the thread . Last night when I could not sleep. Soooo Back to the original post BREED AWAY OR Spay/Neuter. .... Since I have nothing out of these dogs this does not apply to me..... Thus I would not have brought it up, seems like a dead issue as the information is on the Health registry ......Perhaps your mentor can explain what this means....
Rosie is 12 weeks. She is everything I dreamed she would be. Except she is a brat like her grandmother Sadie.. Who was 7 in August of this year.....


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## Indiana

Interesting thread! My SO has epilepsy, and in humans it presents in several ways. Sometimes just staring or repeating a movement is actually a seizure (an absence or complex partial seizure), and doctors always want to know which direction he turned in, or which way he looked (relates to a specific part of the brain). Recently the "grand mal" seizure has been changed in name to tonic clonic. Sometimes people can tell they are about to have a seizure, but often not. Interestingly, some people with epilepsy have service dogs who can sense when a seizure is pending so the person can get to a safe spot, so maybe dogs can always tell? Interesting thought. Anyway in people, seizures experienced at night occur from a specific part of the brain, and are not considered to be as serious as those that occur during the day...by my SO's neurologists anyway. Also, when he seizes, he doesn't have to go to the hospital or doctor. We just put him in the recovery position so he's safe, keep him warm, and let him rest afterward. His doctor likes to be notified, but that's it..unless the seizure occurs over 20 minutes (then it becomes a serious medical situation). If my SO is getting an aura or feels like a seizure might be pending, he takes an Ativan, which was originally developed as an anti-convulsant and prevents a seizure from taking place. Not sure if Ativan is safe for dogs. Anyway I know how awful seizures look! From the human perspective


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## bigredpoodle

It is truly horrible to watch a dog have a seizure. I had one Irish Setter that had seizures.
It was upsetting to my small children as well. As mentioned before in this thread if you are a multiple dog home it also is hard as the others will attack the dog having the seizure...
I am sorry that you have to go through his as well..


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## CT Girl

This thread illustrates what is the good and the bad about the poodle forum. At its best there are posts that are well researched and thought out filled with information. At worst it denigrated to name calling and not so veiled insults. We have lost valuable members of the forum and they are missed. I don’t think we need to limit our conversations on the forum to “Cute puppy!” but hopefully we can maintain a certain civility in our posts and stop personal attacks. Epilepsy is a controversial topic that not enough is known about. Hopefully we can engage in the kind of thoughtful discussion that will further our knowledge and not let it slip into a playground fight.


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## Rowan

Of interest, Carolina Poodle Rescue (CPR) has an article on seizures in this month's newsletter: Carolina Poodle Rescue Newsletter

*She lists a couple of links:*


> There are people and resources who will help. An excellent resource for or owners of seizure dog Canine epilepsy and diseases that cause seizures in dogs. *This is hard to watch--but seeing it takes the mystery out of it.*


 




The video is VERY hard to watch--and it made me cry. I really don't know how owners of epileptic dogs stay strong during something like this. It's heartbreaking. (Tux, I feel for you!)


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## CT Girl

That video is heartbreaking Rowan - I cried too. It really brings home what the dogs and the owners go through. Even though it is hard to watch it does take the mystery out of it. Thank you for the great link - it is a great source of information. I really liked the write up on vaccines.


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