# Unethical Breeder, Yes or No?



## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I recently got a new puppy. I did not see him until he arrived at the airport as he came from across the country. The breeder had two pup's that looked almost identical in pictures however, one was going to be extremely small. I was looking for a dog for walks, easy hikes, and possibly agility. I told her the small one was out of the question and that I would like the in size pup. Well he got here and we knew immediately that he was not the dog we put a deposit on. He was teeny and had some issues. He has an undescended testicle and what is looking like roach back. His tail also stays down, always. The vet tried stacking him and even then the backed still had the hump. She said sometimes as they grow it might even out but as it is she doesn't believe it will. He had to go in this past week sick and I didn't want to have x-rays done until he was well. We feel that she sent the smaller pup because of the problems and assumed once here we wouldn't send him back. We won't but I do feel very taken advantage of.
What would you do in this situation? Also, does anyone know how the roach back will affected him down the road?
Sorry so long, just wanted to get it all down.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

It just dawned on me that I wrote in health. I don't know how to move it to "talk".
Sorry about that.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i feel bad for you. but across country makes this very difficult to resolve. if you're absolutely certain this is not the dog you said you wanted and paid for, i would email the breeder and express your concerns and see what she has to say. i say email because then there's no isuse about your specific question and the breeder's answer. wait for the answer and see where you want to go from there. once you have an answer, i'm sure there are people here who can tell you what recourse you may have.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you patk. I've been dreading it, mostly because after doing something dishonest, imo, I doubt I'll get much response from her. I'm dragging my feet, lol.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Does anyone feel that in not telling me about the testicle issue was being dishonest? She just put new pictures up and I knew the dog we put our deposit on the minute I saw him.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

if this is not the dog you told her you wanted and expected to get based on emails with her, that's dishonest. do take a screen shot of the photo she just put up. screenshot should preserve the date it was taken. see if you can still find older photos with both dogs and take screenshots, too.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Oh thank you, what an excellent idea! This is exactly why I came here. Also to get thoughts from all of you before deciding what to say in my email. My family is saying "oh don't bother" but I don't feel that way.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

shipping a dog from all the way across country suggests a lot of effort went into this. you deserve at least a decent explanation of what happened. i don't want to get into recourse yet, because recourse may depend on what you get in the way of a response to your email.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

patk, That's how I feel. And I honestly don't think she will admit to any wrong doing. We had been waiting until the right pup came along for some time. He had a very particular look to his face, quite different than his brother and we knew he was the one. The two litters were so similar but the tiny dog was a much darker shade. The boy we thought we were going to get is much lighter. There's no doubt in our minds that she sent the smaller boy from the other litter.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Did you have a purchase agreement? Most are contingent on a wellness exam and it sounds like the vet has concerns. I would use that instead of wrong dog.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm getting ready to look like an idiot. I kept asking if she would send the agreement and it didn't happen. I asked another woman who has dogs from her about whether they had gotten theirs and that I was concerned that she wouldn't respond. She said that the agreement would be signed when I got the puppy, and that I just needed to trust her, have faith. The vet does have concerns. I will go from that rather than wrong doing. Thank you.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Oh boy, sorry that this is happening to you  I really hope that the breeder will do the right thing, even though she hasn't so far. I know how stressful this is and will hope and pray that it gets worked out for you and the pup.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you so much Zooeysmom, that's so kind of you. We are hoping for the best for the little guy. We know that often times other problems follow along with roached back. The bottom of the floating ribs have crooked ends. They stick out so far you run your hands over them and fear you'll hurt him. He was also sick this week and the vet couldn't find anything but felt that as lethargic as he was that he should go on antibiotics. Thankfully he was much better within a few day's. We're hoping as he get's bigger ( 2 1/2 lbs ) maybe he will be more healthy.


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## snow0160 (Sep 20, 2016)

Patk, Mfmst, zooeysmom all have really good advice. I'm glad you came on the forum about this because this has happened to my friend's family as well but a few years back. So many people are in this situation but don't speak up. I think how you feel is very fair. I would be upset too. I had put a deposit down on a dog and there was no contract until the deposit was given. Most breeders don't give you a contract until you pay in full, which is probably a good reason to look for someone you either really trust or is really reputable.

If you haven't said anything to the breeder, I would ask for the contract first. See if the result of the vet visit is okay and if you are still unhappy, you can always dispute it if you paid it with a credit card. I would contact the breeder prior to taking such a drastic route as a chargeback but I think it can be done even without a written contract as long as it was paid via credit card of some kind including paypal, visa, mastercard, amex etc.. I hope this helps. Please do keep us up do date on what happens.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you snow0160. I think that's good advise too. I will wait until the x-rays are done and then write and go from there. We also know he's going to have more extensive surgery because of the undescended testicle and I hate that they'll have to go digging in a tiny puppy. But it is suggested that it is done sooner than later. 

I did pay with paypal and I'm glad for that. He is a precious little fella and we just want to do what's best for him. And sad to see such a little guy have problems right off the bat. 

I'm grateful for all of you here, such a wonderful forum. Thank you so much for the kind words.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

The longer you keep the "precious little fellow" the harder returning him is going to be. You have ample recourse under most states' lemon laws to return him. I'm really sorry this happened and would not delay in contacting the breeder.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Mfmst, I wasn't even aware there was such a thing as a lemon law. Thank you.


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

Please don't let the vet operate on him as a pup. The testicle can drop anything up to nine months old and it's normally fine to leave them until a year old unless some other underlying issue. The longer you leave it the better since even though it may not be visable outside the body it will be moving from around where the kidneys are closer to its eventual place making it an easier less invasive operation the older they are.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Summerhouse, It sounds like you know about this issue. I have read that the longer you wait to have the surgery the better the chance they may develop testicular cancer and to do as soon as possible. Do you know anything about that? My vet also said that it may drop but that if it hadn't by the time he is six months that it need's to be done. It's so difficult to know for sure what to do.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

As far as it being less invasive, I definitely agree. At five months he only weighs 2 1/2 lbs. It scares me that he is so little to have the more invasive surgery. My vet asked if I had been hoping for a tiny poodle and was saying from the looks of him he may not even reach 4 lbs.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Do any of you have a roach backed dog, or know how this will affect him long term?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> Do any of you have a roach backed dog, or know how this will affect him long term?


Ironically, all of my dogs have a roach back, in varying degrees. The vets have not said anything about it being a concern. I've always just thought of it as a conformational fault, like a sway back. Do you have a photo of the puppy?


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Both of my standard poodle puppies, Iris and Poppy have gone through stages of growth where their backs were roached for a while, then they weren't roached.

We also had stages where front legs were longer than back legs and when back legs were longer than front ones. Both dogs turned out to have great confirmation. Puppies have weird growth stages.

As far as the testicle issue, I have always understood that it was better to wait a while on the surgery, like closer to 1 year of age.

You might want to get a second opinion from another vet on this issue.


Best of luck with this pup. I am sorry you were not treated well by this breeder.

VQ


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## dogfriend (Oct 9, 2016)

Very sorry for you. This is rough. 

I come from a family of lawyers and here is my best advice. Get the health certificate contract and sign it ASAP. Then contest ownership and secure a refund based on breach of that contract. 

That is the easiest route. Much more difficult to prove that you received a different poodle. Not impossible, and there are legal recourses, but first try this path of least resistance. 

Keep in mind that toy poodles live up to 20 years! You do not want to be stuck with a sick dog who will be a drain on your finances (and heart) when you did your research and paid dearly for a healthy dog. My best advice is that you cut your losses now--pursue the refund. Start things off with a healthy puppy.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am sorry this has happened. I personally would never have accepted a puppy without a written agreement ahead of time, but at this point I think you need to get something in writing from this person, even if just by email and print the messages or get screen shots (and of the pictures of the two puppies) if not actually email. 

I would personally be aiming at being able to return this puppy and would then try to find a breeder that is in a distance you can visit or who is near someone you know and trust to visit on your behalf. I would not trust this person to replace the puppy with the one you placed a deposit for. Whether you had the right puppy or not I would find it dishonest to have received a cryptorchid dog without knowing about it up front.

I do think a toy puppy should not have surgery this soon and especially think that if you want to return the puppy you should not alter the pup through surgery.

As to the roach back, puppies do go through some awkward stages where they look out of proportion, but generally everything gets itself evened out. That your vet doesn't think it will though is a real red flag about how the pup is built and whether his structure would be okay for agility. Also the tail carriage almost makes me wonder if there is some sort of neurological injury, perhaps when the tail dock was done.


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## Summerhouse (Jun 12, 2015)

Dogs generally don't get testicular cancer until the age of 3-4 years. True an undescended testicle can increase the chance but I haven't read anywhere that states it makes it happen earlier. 

As Viking Queen says a year old would be better than 6 mths. They do need the hormones to develop properly into adulthood especially for bone development.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you all so much. Zooeysmom, I'm glad to hear your spoo's don't have any problems as a result of the roached backs. I will have my son try to get a picture of him if we can get him to stay still long enough.

Viking King, My vet has always been wonderful but I have to agree that it would be best to get a second opinion. I'm glad to hear your dogs turned out well, that gives me hope. Maybe he will shift and grow and it will all work out. 

dogfriend thank you for the advice that does sound like a great way to start with the roached back. 

lily cd re, The breeder sent an agreement with the nanny which I didn't read until I got home. I knew then why she wouldn't send an agreement ahead of time. It stated right off the bat that "Male pets can have two, one or no descended testicles that should be removed". I was so angry when we found out that he had the issue that I never signed and returned the agreement. I realized then I really didn't have a leg to stand on over that since I was the one who bought a pup without seeing an agreement first.There were red flags. I had seen so many of the breeders dogs in pictures and videos their families had posted that I tried to rationalize my concerns away thinking our pup would be fine too. This was my first time buying from a breeder and I have learned my lesson the hard way. Thank you for mentioning that the tail might be a neurological issue. I was so frustrated with other issues that I didn't even think to tell the vet it was always down.

Thank you all, I really appreciate your advice.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think perhaps you could still ask about the wrong dog issue, esp. if you have correspondence with the breeder prior to purchase. if you decide to keep your current puppy, it's important to consider insurance. remember anything noted now by the vet as a negative will not be covered under insurance, so it's actually better to get the insurance before things go too far.

i hope at some point you'll decide to share your breeder's name so if others do a search at pf, they can find some feedback from someone who has actually dealt with her.

wishing you and the little one the best.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

About the roached back, the easiest way to know is to look at the parents. If they have good conformation, chances are the puppy will too. Not a 100% proof, but your best shot. If the parents have roached backs and the puppy does too, he will most probably stay that way.

Zooeysmom's dog are from good conformation poodles and careful breeding. It doesn't turn this way with bad breeding practices.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Did your breeder send any vaccination records from her vet? Or did she send any records from a "well baby" checkup at her vet? If you have that vet's name on any of your paperwork you might see if they would send you written info from the checkup on the pup. 

My breeder sent vaccination records that had the vet info on it. She took my pup to the Vet the day befor she shipped her as the airlines require a health certificate from a vet. The airline attached an envelope to the crate with that health certificate in it. 

You might call the vet's office and see if they have a record of the pup with an undecended testicle. With this info, if the vet noted it in the records, the breeder can not claim she did not know about this issue.

We all know that this should have been specifically disclosed to you.

Just a thought........

Best of luck, I am sad you have to deal with this.

Viking Queen

Added......in addition to waiting until the dog' s bones have fully developed, and muscle structure is fully developed, before spaying or neutering there is also some current science which indicates that dogs who are altered later are also much less prone to developing certain types of bone cancer and are less likely to have ACL problems.....all reasons to delay as long as possible. Many of us, myself included, who have recently acquired puppies have done our share of reading on this issue. My last puppy was 14 years ago, so when I got Poppy this spring there was a lot of different information available than there was long ago.

Best of luck. Cathy


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I wish Arreau or one of our breeder members would weigh in on the undescended testicle issue. I consider that a genetic defect and one the breeder darn well knew about and did not disclose. Never mind the contact that came on delivery. Roached back is a confirmation flaw. Many of us, myself included, have learned the hard way about unethical breeders. My vet strongly encouraged me to get my money back and return my last Scottie because of his allergies. I didn't listen and spent what amounted to a show prospect cost, on allergy testing and treatment. Live and learn. I still return to the vet "well puppy" 
exam, that disclosed your dog is not free from pre-existing conditions, lemon law, unsigned agreement, possible dog switch. You have legal recourse and justification for returning the puppy.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Cryptorchidism occurs in well bred dogs all the time--it is not that uncommon and it just causes a slightly more complicated neuter. Perhaps the breeder wasn't experienced enough to know that the testicle is undescended? The vets could tell right away Frosty has both of his descended, but I wouldn't have known how to tell at this age. 

Not trying to defend the breeder at all because surely she was dishonest about the other issues.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Experienced enough to have prominently mentioned it in the contract? I know it is not in mine. From what I read about Cryptorchidism, it is genetic. Dogs with it should not be bred. Fine, all fixed with a neuter and an extra $$$. I don't believe the OP mentioned showing or breeding so a roached back puppy is also okay? It's not a hallmark of a well-bed poodle. No dog in this fight, just empathy for the OP with some difficult decisions.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

So much information, truly wonderful people here! The breeder knew perfectly well about the testicle. She has bred and shown dogs for many years. I too wondered about not receiving any vet documentation. He had to see a vet for the certificate to fly. I doubt records would be of much help as he was cleared and put on a airplane with an ear infection. With the testicle I guess I'm lucky that I hadn't planned to breed, my vet too mentioned that he should never be bred as it is genetic. You all do know your stuff! It's wonderful to be able to come here and learn from all of you who have been through it and have done the extensive research. I too would love to hear what some of the breeders here think in regards to the undescended testicle.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

viking queen's comment about the vet certificate being attached to the crate brings back memories. perhaps you can find it and get a better idea of your boy's condition at the time he was shipped and use that to help you with discussing the issue with the breeder. often a breeder will take the dog back if the buyer is really unhappy. i really think corresponding with her could be the best solution. 

btw, here's an article on cryptorchidism. see para 2 which mentions the condition probably being permanent if the testicles have not descended by about 6 months of age. Retained Testicle (Cryptorchidism) in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals. of course if you have a spay/neuter clause in your contract, it may not be that much of an issue. 

let us know what you decide.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you for the link patk, great information. My vet also said it was unlikely to drop after six months of age. She also said that if I waited there was the possibility of the torsion and that if it happened the pain would come on quickly, be severe and need emergency surgery to repair. That was one of the thoughts about doing it sooner than later. The article mentioned only 1.2% of dogs have the undescended testicle. Our last toy had it also! He had the surgery at six months. I don't know anyone who's dog has had this. Hard choices to make. I will contact the breeder and share what I find out.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

seems to be more common in the smaller breeds. i actually found a short discussion here at pf in which someone mentioned the dog's testicles having descended but then appearing to have disappeared in connection with a show! let us know how things work out. 

if things go well, or you decide to keep your pup, please post photos. we love photos.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> Thank you for the link patk, great information. My vet also said it was unlikely to drop after six months of age. She also said that if I waited there was the possibility of the torsion and that if it happened the pain would come on quickly, be severe and need emergency surgery to repair. That was one of the thoughts about doing it sooner than later. *The article mentioned only 1.2% of dogs have the undescended testicle.* Our last toy had it also! He had the surgery at six months. I don't know anyone who's dog has had this. Hard choices to make. I will contact the breeder and share what I find out.


I highly doubt this is correct. We've had 3 dogs in the family with undescended testicles out of about 20. It caused no issues whatsoever health-wise. I would not hesitate to buy or adopt a cryptorchid puppy. I would just want the issue disclosed up-front. 

Again, not defending the breeder! Just trying to help you make an informed decision.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

I'm sorry you are having this challenging and painful experience. Please share the name of the breeder. Blessings. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

try to get issue resolved first. there have been other cases where revealing the breeder's name before trying to resolve the issue have made it much harder as other owners of dogs from the same breeder have contacted the breeder to say s/he was being trashed publicly. in at least one case i recall, the breeder was a pf member who had sufficient info to destroy the rep of the buyer in the eyes of other pf members. buyer never returned to pf. oops. i should add that it appears the breeder's name was not even mentioned by the buyer but somehow the breeder was alerted and posted her side of the story on pf. best to be upfront with the breeder first with regard to legitimate concerns.


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

I am so sorry you are going through this. People have given you good advice here already. 

The only thing that I just wanted to add is that having used Paypal to purchase him you could go through the Paypal resolution center if all else fails. If after contacting the breeder she doesn't cooperate with you then that may be something to look into. They will stop payment ( or do a payback) until it is resolved. Just a thought.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Hi and thank you for all the advice and kind wishes. I'm not able to be on here as much as a lot of other pf members so wanted to apologize that I'm not able to respond as often.

I have taken your advice and emailed the breeder. I have not heard back yet. As difficult as this has been I do not want to "throw the breeder under the bus".
I would truly hate to see someone else go through this but right now from a legal stand point I feel like it's not the thing to do. As patk mentioned there are other cases that did not end up turning out well. Also, there are pf members who will know who the breeder is without mention of name. I realize I have received stellar advice from you all and I am very grateful for it. This is why I came here with my problem. One way or the other I will get some pic's on here as soon as I can. All problems aside he is an adorable pup!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

btw...don't remember if I mentioned. Several of you mentioned insurance and fortunately I did get it the week he came home. Sigh of relief!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi and thank you for all the advice and kind wishes. I'm not able to be on here as much as a lot of other pf members so wanted to apologize that I'm not able to respond as often.
> 
> I have taken your advice and emailed the breeder. I have not heard back yet. As difficult as this has been I do not want to "throw the breeder under the bus".
> I would truly hate to see someone else go through this but right now from a legal stand point I feel like it's not the thing to do. As patk mentioned there are other cases that did not end up turning out well. Also, *there are pf members who will know who the breeder is without mention of name*. I realize I have received stellar advice from you all and I am very grateful for it. This is why I came here with my problem. One way or the other I will get some pic's on here as soon as I can. All problems aside he is an adorable pup!


Oh dear if it's who I think it is.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

zooeysmom... How do I send you a pm, if you don't mind?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> zooeysmom... How do I send you a pm, if you don't mind?


Click on my name and you'll see the option to send a private message.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

Just reading this thread, so sorry you (and puppy) have to deal with this now, you should be having an exciting time and only dealing with potty training. Pretty sure I know who the breeder is too (hot topic).


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you Caddy. We were expecting the exciting time, it's unfortunate. It has not been the exciting time but he is an absolute doll, lying in my lap as I type. Just as sweet and loving as anyone could possibly hope for.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I feel sorry that you are going thru all the troubles but I bet you are loving that pup anyway!.....after all, who in their right mind couldn't love a sweet fluffy puppy? I hope for a solution for you, but in the meantime I just wanna see some pics of this precious little guy!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I too am sorry that you are going through this - I hope that you can bring things to a satisfactory conclusion with the breeder.

On roach backs - Poppy went through a phase when her back looked arched. She was a nervous pup, and tucked her tail a lot, especially around strangers, which emphasised the curve. As she grew up and in confidence her back levelled and her tail lifted - your puppy may yet improve.


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## grab (Jun 1, 2010)

I can't speak on the legal aspect, but I do know about cryptorchid dogs, lol. Yes, undescended testicles have a higher risk of cancer due to being in a warm environment. But, you can generally still safely wait until 18-24 months if you wish.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

zooeysmom said:


> Cryptorchidism occurs in well bred dogs all the time--it is not that uncommon and it just causes a slightly more complicated neuter. Perhaps the breeder wasn't experienced enough to know that the testicle is undescended? The vets could tell right away Frosty has both of his descended, but I wouldn't have known how to tell at this age.
> 
> Not trying to defend the breeder at all because surely she was dishonest about the other issues.


Also NOT trying to defend the breeder (no clue who it is), but it is possible for a testicle that was descended at the time they left the breeder's to have an undescended testicle when they arrive at their new home. Sometimes young male puppies with normal descended testicles will sort of "suck" their testicles back up when being examined. I've heard on more than one occasion of a young male show dog being examined in the ring and the judge excusing the puppy for an undescended testicle, when it was there that morning. 

Anyway, for this reason, some breeders will, at the time of puppy pick up, physically point out the presence of two descended testicles and have the puppy buyer initial that they are descended so that later, if they go back up, the breeder has proof the puppy was not sold with an undisclosed issue. Most health guarantees don't cover undescended testicles, but it's important to disclose it to the puppy buyer so that they can choose to take the puppy or not.

How old is the puppy? Some puppies are late droppers, so you may just need to give the pup some time.  Also, which testicle is undescended? The right or left? Can it be felt in the scrotum? How far down? It makes a difference in considering whether the other might still drop.

As others have pointed out, roach back is a conformation flaw that can occur to varying degrees. If it's relatively minor, it's not a big deal for a pet puppy. Also, if the puppy is scared (adjusting to a new environment!), it will often roach it's back and tuck it's tail.

For the future, it's always good to make sure you have things in writing, and to see a copy of the contract before agreeing to a puppy. I know, hindsight is everything sometimes.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm late to this thread. You've gotten some stellar advice from the others. I just want to say how sorry I am that you've been dealing with this stress. I hope the breeder will do the right thing so you don't have to hassle with legal recourse. Best wishes to you that things will turn out okay...and do keep us posted.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

MollyMuiMa said:


> I feel sorry that you are going thru all the troubles but I bet you are loving that pup anyway!.....after all, who in their right mind couldn't love a sweet fluffy puppy? I hope for a solution for you, but in the meantime I just wanna see some pics of this precious little guy!


Thank you MollyMuiMa, We are loving him so much. Now if we could just get him potty trained!

I love seeing pictures too. I will try to get pictures to post. I tried last night and all I got were blurs. Lol, typical puppy!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I'm late to this thread. You've gotten some stellar advice from the others. I just want to say how sorry I am that you've been dealing with this stress. I hope the breeder will do the right thing so you don't have to hassle with legal recourse. Best wishes to you that things will turn out okay...and do keep us posted.


Thank you. The advice here has been very helpful and reassuring.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

grab said:


> I can't speak on the legal aspect, but I do know about cryptorchid dogs, lol. Yes, undescended testicles have a higher risk of cancer due to being in a warm environment. But, you can generally still safely wait until 18-24 months if you wish.


grab, I had no idea that it was due to the warmer environment. Thank you. I am beginning to feel much better as far as waiting longer to have the neuter done. It was scheduled for then end of the month.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

fjm said:


> I too am sorry that you are going through this - I hope that you can bring things to a satisfactory conclusion with the breeder.
> 
> On roach backs - Poppy went through a phase when her back looked arched. She was a nervous pup, and tucked her tail a lot, especially around strangers, which emphasised the curve. As she grew up and in confidence her back levelled and her tail lifted - your puppy may yet improve.


That's wonderful to hear. I'm glad your little Poppy came through it with no problem. I am hopeful our pup will do the same and very happy to know that it could happen and that if not others have said that their dogs who still have it have fared well with no problem.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Also NOT trying to defend the breeder (no clue who it is), but it is possible for a testicle that was descended at the time they left the breeder's to have an undescended testicle when they arrive at their new home. Sometimes young male puppies with normal descended testicles will sort of "suck" their testicles back up when being examined. I've heard on more than one occasion of a young male show dog being examined in the ring and the judge excusing the puppy for an undescended testicle, when it was there that morning.
> 
> Anyway, for this reason, some breeders will, at the time of puppy pick up, physically point out the presence of two descended testicles and have the puppy buyer initial that they are descended so that later, if they go back up, the breeder has proof the puppy was not sold with an undisclosed issue. Most health guarantees don't cover undescended testicles, but it's important to disclose it to the puppy buyer so that they can choose to take the puppy or not.
> 
> ...


CharismaticMillie, How sad for the show dog. Our pup just turned five months and it is his right testicle. I didn't know that most guarantees did not cover the undescended testicles. Thank you. I too feel that it should have been disclosed all the same. I can feel the left testicle but can not feel the right at all. This is my first time feeling this so I can't really tell you any more than that, lol. I do believe after all the good advice I will wait to have him neutered.

I am happy to know that the roach back may level out or at least not cause the little guy trouble. So many articles online that have scared me.

As for the agreement I will definitely do things differently in the future. I feel like a fool for doing things the way I did. As you said "hindsight really is everything sometimes."


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Puppy Love said:


> grab, I had no idea that it was due to the warmer environment. Thank you. I am beginning to feel much better as far as waiting longer to have the neuter done. It was scheduled for then end of the month.


Warm environment meaning internal body temperatures, of course! Not living in a warm climate. haha

And as to feeling the testes on a tpoo I can't imagine how small they would be. Even on Javelin they just felt like peanuts to me when he was a baby dog. Then all of a sudden when adolescence was approaching and I was grooming and they were much much more obvious.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

According to Dr. Hutchison, repro expert, the left testicle descends first. If the right testicle has descended but the left has not, it's unlikely that the left will. However, if the left has dropped and the right has not, it is still possible. But..if it doesn't descend by 6 months, it's probably not going to happen.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Any news? I'm still thinking about you and your situation. Hope something positive is happening.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled, What I got was more or less hostility. A generic statement that she didn't want anyone keeping one of her babies that did not love and cherish them, and that was the case to send him back. She did offer a refund if she got him back. That was nice to know.

I did not get in response to my questions and concerns and she quite clearly is not going to send the information I requested.

Thank's so much for asking. I hope all is well with you! I may have mentioned this before but too tired to go back and check right now, lol, but if I ever figure it out, when I can I'm going to start my 52 week thread.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am happy to see that you seem to feel comfortable enough with the advice you have gotten here to have moved past your original concerns and are having fun taking pictures of your pup and feel like starting a 52 weeks thread. I wish you much success with him.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

lily cd re thank you for the kind wishes. You're right, after all the information and great advice I'm am feeling much better. It's a complete relief too because we were already very attached to him.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, so you're going to keep him. I imagined it wouldn't take but a couple of days to become attached. _*If*_ this is the breeder I think it is, she is incredibly unethical and in fact, is a puppy mill and is a criminal. So it's no surprise that she's not doing the right thing. Didn't want anyone who didn't love and cherish? Puleeeze. Anyhow, I'm sort of relieved that you're through with any connection with that person. And moving on with your little wee one. I bet he's adorable. What's his name?

I wouldn't worry about the roached back because at this age, they tend to look like that and straighten out later. I have a picture of Matisse (the dog in my siggy) being stacked when he was an 8 week old puppy but Photobucket is down for maintenance right now. He totally looked all humped up on his back. It wasn't long before he straightened right out. Hopefully, your dog will too. 

As far as doing hikes and other athletic ventures, have no fear. My 8 & 3/8th", four pounder, Maurice is like the energizer bunny. He can go and go and go and never tires. He's perfectly able to run and jump and in fact, is hard to keep up with. His little legs just zoom along. He scampers up a trail, negotiates fallen logs and brush in the woods, is loads of fun. So, hope that's some consolation for you. As long as your pup will be healthy, I don't see any reason you can't do what you wanted with the bigger pup. Of course the little ones can't jump as high or run as fast. My Matisse, is bigger. He's 10 inches and 7 lbs. He too can run and jump, hike, though because of his bigger size, can run faster than Maurice. But pound for pound, that little wee one makes one heck of a hiking buddy. (I use to hike in rugged, north Idaho with my little wee Chihuahuas too...total mountain dogs. lol) 

Feed the best food you can. I do a raw diet. That takes some research though. Cost wise...it doesn't wind up being more than a fairly good kibble if you shop carefully. Keep in touch with your vet and be careful with vaccinations (study up) and flea treatment. I use puppy and kitten size flea stuff (Revolution) on Maurice. 

Anyhow, I am sure it will all work out and I am glad you're starting a 52 week thread. I'll look forward to seeing some peektures. I bet he's just precious. Wishing you happy days ahead. :happy:


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

hey there puppy love, don't feel bad about being told your breeder may be someone suspected of being a criminal running a puppy mill. there are lots of folk here with rescue dogs of unknown provenance and a couple with dogs of the best of backgrounds with difficult issues. the proof of quality will be in the dog himself. a number of people have provided you with some good info about your initial concerns and pointed out things may go much better than you feared. sounds like your pup has a great temperament, which is definitely not the hallmark of a puppy mill dog. hope you decide to go ahead with your 52-week thread and share some photos rather than worry about your dog being constantly denigrated as having been purchased from a criminal puppy miller.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Oh Yes! Gotta see pictures of your cute little nugget! My Molly was an oops! puppy, but I as far as I'm concerned, she perfect to me!!! Hope you have the best puppyhood ever!!!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

In the long run what matters is that you love your pup and that you have a long and happy life together. There are all sorts of dogs with all sorts of backgrounds here ranging from oops breedings to those from backyard breeders to those from pet stores and to on to the highest ranks of show poodledom. While in the long run we all want to see improvements in the welfare of all dogs (and I personally have very strong feelings about the business aspects of rescue organizations as not necessarily serving that need) once the paws are on the ground you should just do the best for your pup and build a great relationship. Lily is from a small hobby breeder and Javelin is directly related to Mikimoto. They are loved just the same as one another and Peeves.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Absolutely...definitely. I have and have had dogs from a back yard breeder who actually evolved into a full fledged puppy mill with two locations! My two Chihuahuas I got from this person years ago and she looked okay then...just one big, beautiful house not far from my house... and a large handful of dogs...not a huge number and they were kept nicely... but then it exploded some time after that. My little girl Chi lived to be 14. (rip) She was healthy all that time until near the end. My little Jose` is 14 now...soon to be 15. Never any problems to speak of other than a luxating patella. In fact, they've lived longer than most of the purebreds I've had. When this woman got busted, I was floored. It was all in the news and a big deal. 

Your little puppy (because I think I know where he comes from) is most likely going to be a nice looking little poodle. Although he comes from a out of control situation where this breeder (if it's who I think it is) exploded like my Chihuahuas' breeder into a big time puppy mill operation and got busted for it, she does have some good lines in her dogs as she use to show and had champions. She can't anymore since she got ousted from AKC but she still has nice dogs with good lines I think. 

My hope is that these people who do this get a grip and stop doing it...breeding so irresponsibly. You got the run around, no good answers, no contract that you asked for, got the puppy you didn't originally ask for. It was dishonest and very unethical as you indicated in your title. And I am sorry you went through that. When I contacted my byb about Jose` growing too big, not looking like a Chihuahua really, her answer was that he was a "throwback." Oh puleeze. Talk about irresponsible. Anyhow, I moved on like you're doing and it's been a fantastic near 15 years with these darling little dogs. 

So, at the end of the day you decided to pull up your boot straps, move on, stop dealing with this person, love this little puppy who quickly wormed his way into your heart and like I said before, I think you'll find that this tiny one will be able to do the athletics you like to do. _That_ is such a misconception that a lot of people have...that teensy dogs can't hike. They most certainly can barring any health problems that prevent it. I think you'll have a great little dog. Even my byb/puppy mill dogs, including funny looking Jose` happened to have terrifically outstanding temperaments. I couldn't have had sweeter, more loving, stable, calm, well behaved little Chihuahuas if I had gotten better bred ones. They have been completely 180 degrees from the stereotypical high strung, ornery, suspicious, ankle biting... yada yada. That's another bit of nonsense and misconception...that poorly bred dogs usually have lousy temperaments. That is so not true. I've had plenty of mutts and poorly bred, unplanned dogs that had lovely temperaments. Genetic diversity can do amazing things even though it _can _go either way.

Anyhow, enjoy your pup. Hope to see some photos soon! Hope to see you come back to us.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

puppy love, so sorry we have members unable to restrain themselves from pushing the story that you have bought a puppy mill dog and somehow have gotten caught up in a criminal enterprise. hope you have not opted to leave pf. don't let others' personal agendas and failures deter you from starting a 52-week thread. if needed, i am sure the mods and admin will keep you from being harassed. looking forward to your rejoining us. :smile:


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

This is why I asked who the breeder is. Because folks are making an assumption of who it is and there are ALOT of sideways breeding going on. Further, if one isn't in the "know", then how can one make a knowledgeable choice of breeders? In order to stop this speculation, the breeder should be identified by Puppylove, if she is willing; for no other reason but to warn other perspective buyers of purchasing from this breeder. "One can't know what one can't know. But once one knows, different choices can be made".


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I'm sure your Poodle puppy has a wonderful life to look forward to with you and your family. I kept the badly allergic Scottie, cured him expensively but was rewarded by many years with a sweet, sweet fellow. I still don't care for your breeder - trying to guilt trip you with "love" when she flew a puppy with an ear infection that did not pass his well puppy exam.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Kassie said:


> This is why I asked who the breeder is. Because folks are making an assumption of who it is and there are ALOT of sideways breeding going on. Further, if one isn't in the "know", then how can one make a knowledgeable choice of breeders? In order to stop this speculation, the breeder should be identified by Puppylove, if she is willing; for no other reason but to warn other perspective buyers of purchasing from this breeder. "One can't know what one can't know. But once one knows, different choices can be made".
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


indeed. i did ask earlier that once things were resolved, puppy love share her breeder's name with us. she did say she believes it's a breeder known here at pf. but nothing since. she could have gotten her money back but chose to keep the pup instead, which may be why she prefers to remain silent. it's her choice and how does someone hinting over and over she believes the dog is from a criminal puppy miller help? if puppy love starts a 52-week thread, are the same "hints" going to be repeated over and over again in that thread? what a prospect to look forward to.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I agree that the breeder should be named, but I have gotten some poodles not from good breeders or part time breeder, or whatever, and I will tell anyone who they are if I can remember. But if what you got you love and accept and is still your pride and joy as a fur baby, enjoy the baby.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree with CharismaticMillie. We have checked all puppies before heading to a vet visit, declared all boys to have two descended testicles, only to have the vet say someone has one not descended, only to have it reappear within a week.

I have seen young, inexperienced show dogs look roachy from time to time, but it was nerves and the way they'd tighten up because they were uneasy. Once more comfortable in the ring, their topline leveled out and everything looked terrific.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I, for one, will take the word of two well respected breeders that an undescended testicle is not so unusual is not a big problem and the views expressed here by any number of people that puppies can look wonky and disproportioned only to grow into themselves later.

I don't know if the OP is still reading here or anywhere on the forum. If not that is sad since she came asking for help and has been made guilty of some sort of criminal facilitation by getting a puppy from a breeder who people think they know even though a name has never been mentioned.

The only thing I have left to say for anyone reading who is considering getting a puppy is to read this thread http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/33522-buying-puppy-safely-basics.html before they decide where they want to get their puppy and really try to find a breeder whose facilities can be visited before making a commitment. Many people who have posted here about problems with puppies they bought long distance could have avoided those problems by going to see where those puppies spent their formative early months. All of my dogs came to us from breeders we had met in person at least once, and Peeves is the second GSD from the same breeder.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Sorry, patk, not falling for your invitation for drama. The OP and I have PMed and are on friendly terms. I don't even know who the breeder is, I can only guess, but I have never and would never try to make her feel guilty for her decision. I for one would be a total hypocrite, because, as I've already shared on the forum, I bought a Maltese from a "reputable" show breeder and he was not what she said he was when I agreed to purchase him.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

sorry zm, but you're not even in the picture. why do you assume you're the only one in contact with the op? you're not the only person at pf, let alone anywhere else in the world.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I do not think it is necessary to visit a breeder's facility, if distance is an issue. But you should try to find someone transparent, and read testimonials from many satisfied buyers, and ask the breeder if you can contact some of them to get a green light straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak. We have had plenty of people who have bought one of our pups from afar, and have yet to have any of those dissatisfied with the puppy who ended up a part of their family. I bought Journey and Jameson from the Czech Republic and Quincy from Iceland, and have been nothing but thrilled from the moment I set eyes on them.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I agree, Arreau. I was honestly foolish to go with the Maltese, because the breeder had a mixed bag of reviews--some glowing, a couple not so good about shyness in the dogs. This lady is still one of the top breeders winning in the ring and has beautiful dogs, so I went for it when she said the puppy for me was outgoing and happy and had a great temperament. Live and learn; if there are ANY red flags, go with your gut and go on to the next breeder. 

With Maizie, her breeder only had great reviews from people who had visited in person, so I felt comfortable trying again with a sight unseen purchase.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

you can also visit a breeder and work closely with him to get your dog's championship and then find out the dog should not be bred. there are also a couple of members who own spoos from a breeder who has been savaged here and the dogs nonetheless have earned multiple titles. and there are members who searched, found all that info and went ahead anyway with purchases. the best part about pf is that most people are not into dumping on someone's dog. sympathy for someone who is unhappy and/or made a mistake is never out of place, even if the buyer stretches the truth a bit, which has happened in a couple of cases, as we know. but insisting on reminding an owner of an error of judgment, if that's what it comes down to, seems to be a case of carrying out a vendetta of some kind. not cool.


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## Wyatt Riley (Sep 21, 2016)

I, too was thinking about the wellness clause. I know that it would be hard to do, but I'd send the dog back. She was dishonest and you can report her to the state board and the AKC. It doesn't sound like with the back and tail problems that you are describing he/she is going to be able to go hiking, agility, etc. If you decide to get pet insurance send in the papers from the vet only. And then after they've received them submit the vet papers, because I think if you do decide to keep him/her insurance is going to be a necessity, imho.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Wyatt Riley said:


> I, too was thinking about the wellness clause. I know that it would be hard to do, but I'd send the dog back. She was dishonest and you can report her to the state board and the AKC. It doesn't sound like with the back and tail problems that you are describing he/she is going to be able to go hiking, agility, etc. If you decide to get pet insurance send in the papers from the vet only. And then after they've received them submit the vet papers, because I think if you do decide to keep him/her insurance is going to be a necessity, imho.


If you look on page 7, you will see the OP has decided to keep the puppy. She did buy insurance the first week she got him home and she is already bonded to him.

Since the OP doesn't seem to have been back anything said here now is for a person with questions sometime in the future. I again refer to the thread I linked to above. Arreau I appreciate you adding your experience about long distance sales and purchases, but I do still think it is preferable to find a local breeder. Failing that I would only make a long distance purchase if a trusted friend or family member could visit in person once or twice. The problem with references is that if I was the seller of something of high value and uniqueness I could stack the deck with the references by not giving names or contact information for the people who thought I had sold them a lemon. Again I hope that more people than not are honest brokers, but there are exceptions to every rule.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm finally back on to see all your posts. Thank's so much for all your kind thoughts and advice. I started my 52 weeks of Wally last night, well my son did. I have to learn how to put photos on and whatnot.


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