# Byb



## taxtell

This person frequents another forum I visit, and swears up and down he's not a BYB.

He charges $1500 for these... :doh: :doh: :doh:

Unreal:
East Coast Black Magic GSD / Classic German Shepherd Dog Breeders

This makes me angry on so many different levels...no testing but they are 'out of tested parents'


Don't some of these dogs look like they have Akita or even corgi in them?

Sheesh.


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## JE-UK

It should be in the list of "ways to identify a BYB" - having a testimonial from Mylie Cyrus on the front page of your web site. I didn't need to see any more.


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## taxtell

JE-UK said:


> It should be in the list of "ways to identify a BYB" - having a testimonial from Mylie Cyrus on the front page of your web site. I didn't need to see any more.


LOL
I agree.


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## NarysDad




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## Marian

Miley Cyrus must have a menagerie by now.


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## NarysDad

Maybe if you were familiar with his lines you just might understand a bit about the breed, but then you are probably just a poodle fancier anyway


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## Keithsomething

yeah no kidding Marian...she must have an effin zoo o.o

and you don't have to be familiar with someones lines to see something off he says that if you PAY them to keep your dog an extra week or 2 that they'll bring the pup INTO the home and try and house break it...which sounds like he has a Kennel =\


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## partial2poodles

They are _different _. Not my type but I'm sure alot of people like large hairy horses that are prone to hip dysplasia. My best friend has 2 shepherds of excellent quality that do obedience and rally. They look very different than these one.


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## NarysDad

I may not have his lines of Bauernhoffen dogs. But just cause he chooses to do these lines should matter to you all

I have a kennel of Czech line GSD and go look tell me you all don't like this type, Big heads, strong structures, solid nerve. Soon these guy's will be along with the dinosaurs cause there are people out there breeding these lines to what ever they come across. But if you are picking his dogs apart than you all will have fun with mine, but I guarantee you wouldn't want to walk on my property without notice cause some of these guys comes from some of the old Czech lines


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## cbrand

NarysDad said:


> I may not have his lines of Bauernhoffen dogs. But just cause he chooses to do these lines should matter to you all
> 
> I have a kennel of Czech line GSD and go look tell me you all don't like this type, Big heads, strong structures, solid nerve. Soon these guy's will be along with the dinosaurs cause there are people out there breeding these lines to what ever they come across. But if you are picking his dogs apart than you all will have fun with mine, but I guarantee you wouldn't want to walk on my property without notice cause some of these guys comes from some of the old Czech lines
> 
> Shepherds by Design (815)393-3454


Looks like your site was repossessed by your web developer for non-payment. 

Anyway, I used to have a German bred GSD. I went to site listed by the OP. What I saw.... typical backyard quality dogs of poor and uneven breed type. Plus, if a breeder is going to say that he is breeding for "temperament" then he might want to go out and prove his breeding dogs by participating in companion dog events and activities such as Obedience, Agility, Tracking or Therapy work.

I think this breeder is playing on the fears of the dog buying public. Whatever. If a buyer wants to lay down $1500 for an untested, BYB GSD, then they get what they deserve.


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## taxtell

NarysDad said:


> Maybe if you were familiar with his lines you just might understand a bit about the breed, but then you are probably just a poodle fancier anyway


I am not just a poodle fancier, but you know what they say about assumptions.
I am a veterinary technician and see plenty of GSDs (well bred and not).

Anyway, I showed the website to a friend of mine who competes with her GSDs (who are gorgeous, btw, and come from good lines, I can ask her which) and she said she thought the guy was trying to rip people off.

Being defensive of other BYBs just makes you look like one as well, IMO.


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## NarysDad

Hmmm, You must have gone on a site that is over I had many years back and when I switched hosts The webmaster was PO'ed that I fired him for services that were not completed.

Getting to my dogs they are either titled or in the process, Although I am a person that feels titles don't tell you what the dog is going to produce. Lets just use an example here
You have a dog like my Ben that was a SCH-3,IPO-3,ZVV3 now does this make him breed worthy? Do you know anything about their genetics just cause they are titled? Yes they can work but this doesn't mean the genetics are there to produce themselves in their pups. Should I go further with this? Cause again just cause a dog is titled doesn't mean they are breed worthy

Most of the members here cutting down this breeders site don't even own shepherds to start with but you all are experts. I see some of you have those designer dogs that can't even be registered, but you are will to pay as much if not more than this breeder charges for his shepherds.

So I say again go look at my dogs and tell me what is wrong with them if you can


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## taxtell

NarysDad said:


> Hmmm, You must have gone on a site that is over I had many years back and when I switched hosts The webmaster was PO'ed that I fired him for services that were not completed.
> 
> Getting to my dogs they are either titled or in the process, Although I am a person that feels titles don't tell you what the dog is going to produce. Lets just use an example here
> You have a dog like my Ben that was a SCH-3,IPO-3,ZVV3 now does this make him breed worthy? Do you know anything about their genetics just cause they are titled? Yes they can work but this doesn't mean the genetics are there to produce themselves in their pups. Should I go further with this? Cause again just cause a dog is titled doesn't mean they are breed worthy
> 
> Most of the members here cutting down this breeders site don't even own shepherds to start with but you all are experts. I see some of you have those designer dogs that can't even be registered, but you are will to pay as much if not more than this breeder charges for his shepherds.
> 
> 
> P.S. Who has a designer dog, please?
> 
> So I say again go look at my dogs and tell me what is wrong with them if you can
> 
> Shepherds by Design - German Shepherd Breeder, IL


Defensive much?
This thread wasn't about you, but you seem determined to make it so.
I don't care to look at your dogs, I was simply pointing out someone I thought was underhanded.

Maybe you could give one of your dogs to Justin Bieber and maybe we'll care.


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## taxtell

Wait, who here has a designer dog they paid more than 1500 dollars for, please?

LOL


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## NarysDad

taxtell said:


> I am not just a poodle fancier, but you know what they say about assumptions.
> I am a veterinary technician and see plenty of GSDs (well bred and not).
> 
> Being defensive of other BYBs just makes you look like one as well, IMO.


Well than if you are a tech you see a lot of ill bred GSD's and then you assume ( And I'm sure you have heard what happens when you assume things) that he has unhealthy dogs and doesn't test his dogs 


Back yard breeders, on the other hand, very often raise very good dogs. Their dogs are loved, handled, socialized, imprinted (altho they often don't call it that) and well fed. They are not, contrary to what those on any other GSD forum would have you believe, any more prone to health issues than their dogs. Hip dysplasia can crop up anywhere, from parents who have both OFA'd excellent as well as from parents who haven't OFA'd at all. Since their dogs are usually less extreme in type, they may well be a better risk than those pups of the more aware whose dogs are extreme.

I guess what I'm saying is before you start cutting down a breeder find out what he/ she is producing, look into their lines and not go by what others tell you. I didn't see your friend coming here to say what she felt, but you instead. And just cause you are a tech at a vets office doesn't make you an expert in the GSD world, but only someone here with an opinion


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## taxtell

Honestly, your grammar makes it rather difficult to understand what you are trying to say.

My friend with the GSDs is not very internet savvy. I can ask her to come post on the poodle forums...but I doubt she'd be very interested. Are you a poodle owner or did you come here to discuss BYB GSDs? 

I am sure that some BYBs produce very fine dogs, I just don't think this guy is one of them. Opinions are just that, opinions.

Which reminds me, who here has a designer dog, like you said earlier??? LOL.


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## taxtell

P.S. Doc ratted you out on the DFC forums!

Tell the creep to stop stalking me.


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## NarysDad

taxtell said:


> P.S. Doc ratted you out on the DFC forums!
> 
> Tell the creep to stop stalking me.


I come her because you attack him for what he produces, only because you you have something personal against him. He is no different than myself that breeds GSD's. The only difference is that he breeds ole fashion lines and I breed the old Czech lines. Yes I came here Because he is a close friend of mine that is getting attacked from you in which you have no clue about the breed you are complaining about and going on what someone else told you.

I think if you want him to leave you alone than stop talking about him. No he didn't put me up to this at all just told me that he was getting bashed here by you and now after coming here and see that you know nothing about the breed that you are complaining about only tells me that this is something that you have personally against the man. Sounds like you need to worry about what you are doing and not posting a bunch of crap about someone.

So what I'm saying to you in plain english is*Get a Life*


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## taxtell

Thread started 8/17, you joined 8/18. 

You don't have a poodle.

You came to this forum specifically looking for trouble, and you're telling other people to get a life?


LOL!


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## NarysDad

taxtell said:


> Thread started 8/17, you joined 8/18.
> 
> You don't have a poodle.
> 
> You came to this forum specifically looking for trouble, and you're telling other people to get a life?
> 
> 
> LOL!


And what were you doing on this thread before I came here. No I don't own a poodle, but if this is a poodle forum like it says why are you here starting trouble about GSD's?

It just angers me when someone comes and bashes someone and don't know what they are talking about just cause they have an issue from another forum in which you and this guy are members of.


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## taxtell

You came here looking for trouble, you had no other reason to come here.

It is creepy and stalky. I have nothing more to say to you, run along.


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## plumcrazy

Moderator alert!!! Please stick to the topic and leave the personal stuff out of it - Take it to private messages if you have anything further to say, NarysDad and Taxtell.

Thank you!!


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## Fluffyspoos

Why is he charging more as the puppy ages? Just because it comes with training? They should come with training regardless, plus socalization. I got Vegas at 11 weeks, and he was the same price as his siblings, male or female, at 8 weeks.


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## NarysDad

Maybe instead of asking these questions here on this board maybe you ought to ask him as his phone number is listed on his website and I'm sure you will get the answers you are looking for:doh:

I charge more for my dogs when they are older just cause an owner doesn't have to do as much work with them, but my older ones usually are sold at a year old and have training done. My pups are sold for 1,500.00 also, does that make me a bad breeder that is ripping off my clients? I have one of the best contract on my dogs that you will find with breeders that usually hide behind loop holes that are designed for that very reason


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## Keithsomething

...nobody is talking about you

you haven't contributed to any post about poodles why on earth are you on a POODLE forum?

since you're a strong proponent for GSD's call this BYB seeing as his telephone number is listed :doh: 
and have a conversation with him about it

goshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh :hammer:


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## NarysDad

I guess the reason I come here to stand up for a friend and fellow breeder is that I also wonder why such things need to be posted on a poodle forum instead of talking about your breed. I don't go to a GSD forum and complain about Poodle breeders.

So at that I leave here scratching my head:frusty:


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## Fluffyspoos

NarysDad said:


> I charge more for my dogs when they are older just cause an owner doesn't have to do as much work with them,


That's bs imo, if someone is breeding then they obviously know they are taking on the responsibility of socializing the puppies and getting them ready for their homes. Doing this with the puppies comes with breeding. Obviously, the puppy is being sold at an older age because you don't have enough buyers.

Am I the only one that this doesn't make any sense to? If there's a price change, at all, then I've seen puppies go cheaper as they've aged and not sold.


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## Fluffyspoos

NarysDad said:


> I guess the reason I come here to stand up for a friend and fellow breeder is that I also wonder why such things need to be posted on a poodle forum instead of talking about your breed. I don't go to a GSD forum and complain about Poodle breeders.
> 
> So at that I leave here scratching my head:frusty:


This may be a poodle forum, but this is in the 'Other Animals' section.


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## NarysDad

Fluffyspoos said:


> That's bs imo, if someone is breeding then they obviously know they are taking on the responsibility of socializing the puppies and getting them ready for their homes. Doing this with the puppies comes with breeding. Obviously, the puppy is being sold at an older age because you don't have enough buyers.
> 
> Am I the only one that this doesn't make any sense to? If there's a price change, at all, then I've seen puppies go cheaper as they've aged and not sold.



So what you are saying Because I have one pup left from my litter that I should lower my price, How do you know that I didn't purposely hold back this pup to train and sell as a trained dog with titles on the said dog. Some clients would rather pay for a trained dog than purchase a pup and have to do all the training themselves. And i'm not talking about house breaking and socialization cause this comes with my pups at no charge. Now lets say if I was selling an older pup that didn't sell right away and he/she was house broke and well socialized for the same as I sold the other littermates don't you think that the client is getting a deal. I never had to once lower my price on a pup and never will

My question Do you breed German Shepherds or are you just going by what you think should be right? Do you even know what is involved with raising a litter? or better yet I bet you think that because I sell my pups for $ 1,500.00 dollar I am making $$$$ hand over fist. Lets see you support the kennel with the money made from selling puppies and see who is really making money


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## Fluffyspoos

No, I don't breed, no, I never will.

But EVERY reputable breeder I've ever seen, y'know, the ones that do health and temperment testings? I've never seen them change their prices based on age. If I bought a puppy from a breeder, I'd expect basic training, INCLUDING housetraining. No, that's not called a deal, that's called responsible breeding.

Anyone that doesn't do this shouldn't be breeding, much less charging MORE for it.


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## NarysDad

Lets hear your definition of a responsible breeder, This ought to be really good!!!


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## Marian

There are already too many people breeding dogs in their backyard, in their spare time; why would we want to do it too?

I think the larger point NarysDad is missing is that we care about ALL dogs,regardless of breed. It's sad to see dogs that end up in shelters because an uneducated buyer bought a puppy from a BYB who didn't bother testing for genetic problems before the pups were born and couldn't afford the vet bills to make the dog well. 

As for calling the GSD breeder to ask these questions, he's just one of thousands of unscrupulous people breeding to make money, and not for the betterment of the breed. It would be like bailing out a ship with a Dixie cup.


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## Fluffyspoos

Lol, it's not very hard.

Health testing
Temperment testing
Involved in breed clubs
Doesn't need to advertise, should already have buyers lined up
Dogs with titles (confirmation, agility, obediance, ect)
I like my breeders to raise puppies in the house
Extends breedings outside their own breeding stock
Has a very limited amount of litters a year (1-2)
Doesn't breed a bitch back to back
Breeds after 2 years, and after testing is all complete
Breeds dogs to the breed standard


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## 1Jurisdiva

I personally do not know whether you are a byb or not. Either way, I was at a dog show recently and was horrified by how extreme the GSDs are becoming - the slanted backs, short hind legs just looked like hip/mobility issues waiting to happen. GSDs are wonderful dogs, and I hope you can participate in bringing them back to a more functional, healthy type.


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## NarysDad

Fluffyspoos said:


> Lol, it's not very hard.
> 
> Health testing
> Temperment testing
> Involved in breed clubs
> Doesn't need to advertise, should already have buyers lined up
> Dogs with titles (confirmation, agility, obediance, ect)
> I like my breeders to raise puppies in the house
> Extends breedings outside their own breeding stock
> Has a very limited amount of litters a year (1-2)
> Doesn't breed a bitch back to back
> Breeds after 2 years, and after testing is all complete
> Breeds dogs to the breed standard


Then I guess I'm doing rather well since I fall in all of these above. I have had 2 litters this year so there again I don't feel that I'm flooding the market.

There are a lot more than genetic testing when considering a breeding as I just don't put one dog with another and just because you look back in further generations of a pedigree and see all hip scores good or better tells you that the pups will be born without issues. You also have to look at vertical pedigrees if you know what i'm talking about. You have to know these dogs in the back of the pedigree and what they are know to add to their offspring

Most of my pups are spoken for before the breeding even takes place. I screen my clients and have turned many away because I would rather sit on a puppy than get a call from a shelter telling me that one of my pups are there 
( only because all my pups are micro chipped before they leave for their own good and not the clients). Take some time and go thru my website and maybe pull up my puppy contract before you consider someone a BYB I think you need to do a little research rather than just agree with each other.


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## Fluffyspoos

That's a really cool story, but I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the breeder that was linked in the first post.


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## faerie

those poor gsds who are being bred to extremes! kind of like what has happened w/ siamese cats!

i had a lovely german shepherd dog. he was my love. i really miss him. the breeder i got him from lived for his dogs. he personally lived in a crappy mobile home and his dogs kennels were nicer than his on abode. he knew the breed, was very picky who he sold to (i felt honored he let me have dylan), and he was about improving the breed. 

he doesn't advertise and last winter i searched everywhere for his number so i could try to get another one of his dogs. it's been 15 years. he's still breeding them.

i was dog searching. i wanted one of his german shepherds or a standard poodle.

i couldn't find his number so now i have temperance. she's my new love.


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## Olie

NarysDad said:


> Lets hear your definition of a responsible breeder, This ought to be really good!!!


Wow you are "barking" up the wrong tree asking that question here? 

You have turned this thread into everything about YOU! And its NOT! 

This is about the greater good and BAD ^^ of breeding dogs in ANIMALS section and the OP had every right to post it and has every right to discuss opinions. 

You are testing the wrong bunch here. GOOD LUCK!! LOL


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## 1Jurisdiva

Faerie - tell me about it. There is actually a siamese cat enthusiast/children's author who has a very successful series of of books called Skippy Jon Jones - about a Siamese kitten who thinks he is a chihuahua because his ears are so big. Such a shame.


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## NarysDad

1Jurisdiva said:


> I personally do not know whether you are a byb or not. Either way, I was at a dog show recently and was horrified by how extreme the GSDs are becoming - the slanted backs, short hind legs just looked like hip/mobility issues waiting to happen. GSDs are wonderful dogs, and I hope you can participate in bringing them back to a more functional, healthy type.


Yes I agree with you on the extreme angulation on these dogs in the AKC shows. I personally breed working line dogs not show lines, although my wife does one litter a year from her show line pair. Which are not anything like what you see in the AKC shows. These dogs are able to walk without walking on their hocks. The problem with most German showlines have to do with health issues and thus is the reason I mostly do working line dogs ( Czech Bloodlines) that can do anything form being a service dog, SARS dog, police K-9 ( in which I have many doing just that) 

I never breed a male or female before 2 yrs old and sometimes not til 3 yrs old as it all depends whether I feel they are mature enough to breed due to the Czech working lines taking much longer to mature than the unhealthy W/German lines out there today. I have what you would see as old boarder patrol lines that use to have a job and were bred for just that reason


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## Keithsomething

I'm just going to reiterate that no one is talking about you Nary... we were talking about the man who charges to potty train his dogs 

Hmm I wonder if Miley and Billy Ray had to pay extra for a SEMI potty trained puppy?


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## NarysDad

I guess we all got off to a bad start, and I don't feel this breeder deserves to be called a BYB by the member here that posted this thread. Like I posted earlier this member that posted the thread has a problem with this breeder from another forum in which i have no clue as to what for but she brought it here which I feel if she had an issue it should have been brought out behind the scenes and not on a public forum in which it has.

I know this breeder in question and I know his dogs to be health tested and hips and elbow to have been xrayed, He takes a lot of time caring for his dogs and goes the extra mile for his clients as most breeders should.

We all share one thing in common and this is the love for our breed whether it is GSD's or Poodles. Hopefully this thread get put to rest as I feel it has run it coarse. I hope that the original poster of this thread thinks about what she posts on a public forum before she starts typing the words of shame


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## taxtell

On that note, why don't you ask your buddy Doc about the misogynistic things he's posted on 'the other forum'? As a matter of fact, his antics are WHY I don't post there anymore.

So please just leave, you're clearly here just to stick up for said buddy who can't do it on his own. You joined the day after I posted. It's very obvious.
Those are some pretty amazing stalking skills.

Opinions are opinions...I am sure Doc can fight his own battles, you doing it for him is just kind of sad...


At least you got a lot of publicity for your webpage that you posted 3 or 4 times.


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## taxtell

Keithsomething said:


> I'm just going to reiterate that no one is talking about you Nary... we were talking about the man who charges to potty train his dogs
> 
> Hmm I wonder if Miley and Billy Ray had to pay extra for a SEMI potty trained puppy?


They GAVE her that dog, in my understanding.
A white one...


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## jak

taxtell said:


> They GAVE her that dog, in my understanding.
> A white one...


Ewww.... I saw the video :wacko:


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## taxtell

I was actually looking at breeders for a reason, a good friend of mine is looking for a GSD puppy for her family.

Does anyone have any good recommendations?
She is not afraid to travel.


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## roxy25

taxtell said:


> I was actually looking at breeders for a reason, a good friend of mine is looking for a GSD puppy for her family.
> 
> Does anyone have any good recommendations?
> She is not afraid to travel.


What type of GSD is she looking for is the MAIN question.

I would not mess with the west german showlines ( They are just hideous and unblanced IMO)

I like DDR or east german dogs better ( but these dogs are not always for everyone IMO these are the real gsd's)

I do not like american show lines either but their are a few kennels I have seen mix DDR/east german type to the show lines and the dogs looked very good. ( my gsd was the same cross) She ws american and german and she was a very good dog.


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## taxtell

She is honestly just looking for a good, sound family pet.
Her son wants to do some tracking/agility with him/her down the line.


Her last GSD came from east german lines, she said, but her breeder retired.

She admits she hasn't been reading up since she didn't think they were going to get a puppy in the near future, but they are missing their old boy.


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## cbrand

I might contact these folks and see where it takes you.

VON HAUBEN SHEPHERDS

One thing to ask about along with pedigrees, titles, and testing is longevity.


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## taxtell

cbrand said:


> I might contact these folks and see where it takes you.
> 
> VON HAUBEN SHEPHERDS


Thank you!
I will pass the link along to her. 
Those are some nice looking dogs!


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## Fluffyspoos

cbrand said:


> I might contact these folks and see where it takes you.
> 
> VON HAUBEN SHEPHERDS
> 
> One thing to ask about along with pedigrees, titles, and testing is longevity.


Now that's what shepherds are suppose to look like


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## roxy25

Fluffyspoos said:


> Now that's what shepherds are suppose to look like


Some of their faces I am not fawn of but they look like good dogs especially since they are focused on work and not just showing 

I am more into these german shepherds ( old historic pictures of GSD's)









a lot of the dogs in the beginning where VERY square with long legs we have made them longer in body with shorter legs










Todays GSD's by working breeders


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## roxy25

I wish I had my GSD book on me I would scan some pics in its crazy how they used to look lol


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## cbrand

I'm not saying that they are the end-all-and-be-all. I just think they have done a lot with their dogs and they would be a good resource for finding like minded breeders.

I think GSDs are hard. Too many American bred GSDs have poor structure and temperaments. Too many German bred dogs are too high drive for the average owner.


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## roxy25

cbrand said:


> I'm not saying that they are the end-all-and-be-all. I just think they have done a lot with their dogs and they would be a good resource for finding like minded breeders.
> 
> I think GSDs are hard. Too many American bred GSDs have poor structure and temperaments. Too many German bred dogs are too high drive for the average owner.


I agree ! I know what you ment. I would rather buy from the breeder you posted than some of the show breeders I have seen.

I just do not like what I called "rat faces" with Gsd's it make them look goofy IMO. 

The american lines are just sad ! every dog show I go to I would look at their hind legs and all I see is weak cow hocked legs ! their bodies are not meant for working at all. , I really doubt they can clear a 7ft fence or even jump high. 

The temps in American lines are also poor ! I never seen soo many weird temps in GSD until I started to go to shows. GSD's used to be my breed but as I kept going to shows and seeing the west german dogs and American dogs, I just fell out of love with them. When I move out with my bf we plan to get a east german bred dog or maybe a rottweiler I am iffy with Rotties also because how some of these american breeders are breeding them. I think we will just stick with east german GSD I just love them so MUCH. 

They are higher drived but most breeders can find you a dog just for a pet some of the puppies do not come out with the same drive. 
Adler Stein Kennels-German Shepherds-German Shepherd Puppies-Working Line German Shepherds

is a very nice breeder she makes sure the dogs temp will fit you lifestyle I almost got a dog from her but she did not have a dog that would suit my life style right now.


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## taxtell

I really like Oskar!


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## Doc

taxtell said:


> This person frequents another forum I visit, and swears up and down he's not a BYB.
> 
> He charges $1500 for these... :doh: :doh: :doh:
> 
> Unreal:
> East Coast Black Magic GSD / Classic German Shepherd Dog Breeders
> 
> This makes me angry on so many different levels...no testing but they are 'out of tested parents'
> 
> 
> Don't some of these dogs look like they have Akita or even corgi in them?
> 
> Sheesh.


It's nice of you to post my web-site. I'm not sure where you got it from unless you were stalking me. 

All my dogs have been x-rayed for hips; are checked every 6 months by a vet; and have been trained in ob with one receiving her CGC. So your comment about non tested dogs is bogus - much like everything else you have preached in here.

You absolutely know nothing about German shepherds and that is proven by your comment pertaining to Akitas and Corgi's.

If you really need to know, my 100% AKC registered German shepherd bloodlines have stayed intact for over 30 years. We do not have EPI, SIBO, allergies and a host of other disorders that are common in the today's bloodlines. I dare say a true BYB can make that claim. I've been involved with German shepherds probably longer than you have been alive and have forgotten more about this breed in a day than you will learn in a lifetime.

I have also posted the pedigrees of all my dogs. And if you know so much about German shepherds, you will see that my lines are built on very good stock. Of course from someone who has an ax to grind, it means nothing.

If you are upset with me, then leave the dogs out of your personal problems. And to be honest your title as "Vet Tech" means absolutely nothing when it comes to passing judgement on a breed you know nothing about. I will respond to all post in this thread in order to present the truth.

A word of advice, sometimes it best to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.


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## Doc

JE-UK said:


> It should be in the list of "ways to identify a BYB" - having a testimonial from Mylie Cyrus on the front page of your web site. I didn't need to see any more.


Very cute. Why would a billionaire buy a dog from a BYB? Doesn't make any sense to me but I am sure you have an answer.


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## Doc

Marian said:


> Miley Cyrus must have a menagerie by now.


Let's see, Miley has a dog, her dad has a German shepherd, her mom has a dog, her grand mother has a dog, and her little sister would love to have a German shepherd. I assume they also have animals on their 500 acre farm.


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## Doc

Keithsomething said:


> yeah no kidding Marian...she must have an effin zoo o.o
> 
> and you don't have to be familiar with someones lines to see something off he says that if you PAY them to keep your dog an extra week or 2 that they'll bring the pup INTO the home and try and house break it...which sounds like he has a Kennel =\


OK know it all, It is not unusal for dogs to cost more if the breeder keeps them over 10 weeks. Have you ever raised a litter of German shepherds? Do you understand their development during the weeks 8 - 12 and the effect a lack of socialization and training has a dog as they grow older? How about their bonding? When is the ultimate week to establish the closet bonding with a pup? When are they developed enough to comprehend right from wrong? How many hours should you spend with a pup during week 10 to 12? When do you expose them to things in the outside world? What about vaccines and nutrition?

Maybe if you understood what all the developmental stages after week 8 you wouldn't question why an older pup is more expensive.


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## Doc

partial2poodles said:


> They are _different _. Not my type but I'm sure alot of people like large hairy horses that are prone to hip dysplasia. My best friend has 2 shepherds of excellent quality that do obedience and rally. They look very different than these one.


Different in what way? A plush coat? At the upper end of the German shepherd standard? You are associating "large hairy horses to hip dysplasia - again an unproven statement. Big dogs does not always equal hip dysplasia. 

By the way, the german shepherd shepherd is a combination of at least 3 types of dogs - all having very different characteristics. I like the bloodline from the Wuerttemberg region of Germany i.e. larger bones, plush coat, larger frame. But that is some historical information that probably hasn't ever crossed many people's mind.


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## taxtell

Aww look who stepped up to defend himself after his 'friend' got banned.

Late to the party.


Ta ta.


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## Doc

cbrand said:


> Looks like your site was repossessed by your web developer for non-payment.
> 
> Anyway, I used to have a German bred GSD. I went to site listed by the OP. What I saw.... typical backyard quality dogs of poor and uneven breed type. Plus, if a breeder is going to say that he is breeding for "temperament" then he might want to go out and prove his breeding dogs by participating in companion dog events and activities such as Obedience, Agility, Tracking or Therapy work.
> 
> I think this breeder is playing on the fears of the dog buying public. Whatever. If a buyer wants to lay down $1500 for an untested, BYB GSD, then they get what they deserve.


"of poor and uneven breed type" - what in the he- - are you talking about? CGC certification = temperament testing.

I'm not smart enough to figure out the rest of your BS.:bird: I'm sure I could learn a great deal from you! $1500 for a quality GSD from an established bloodline of 30 years with no major health issues going back 30 years isn't out of line. I sell every dog I produce and have usually have waiting lists for upcoming litters. And I have never had a pup returned to me, which I will happily do if the pup does not work out for the buyer.


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## Fluffyspoos

Doc said:


> Very cute. Why would a billionaire buy a dog from a BYB? Doesn't make any sense to me but I am sure you have an answer.


They do it all the time, and buy from puppymills too.. like that store that got closed down 'Pets of Bel Air.' I'd never trust the opinion of a pop celebrity.


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## Doc

taxtell said:


> I am not just a poodle fancier, but you know what they say about assumptions.
> I am a veterinary technician and see plenty of GSDs (well bred and not).
> 
> Anyway, I showed the website to a friend of mine who competes with her GSDs (who are gorgeous, btw, and come from good lines, I can ask her which) and she said she thought the guy was trying to rip people off.
> 
> Being defensive of other BYBs just makes you look like one as well, IMO.


Lets see, your massive amount of knowledge and experience as a "Vet Tech" has exposed to the many lines of German shepherds that are being bred in this country and the world. So you ask your friend what she thinks about particular dogs. And this friend is involved in "showing" German shepherds. Well as a general rule, Show line German shepherds are some of the worst temperament and structured dogs in the German shepherd world. It's no wonder she wouldn't like a different type of dog.

I'm not sure how she can say I am ripping people off when show line breeders charge different amounts for pups in the same litter!


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## Doc

taxtell said:


> P.S. Doc ratted you out on the DFC forums!
> 
> Tell the creep to stop stalking me.


You stalked around and found my web-site and decided to post it in this Poodle forum. I did not stalk you.

I found out when I looked at the hits on my web-site and saw I was getting a ton of hits from poodleforum.com. So I came and saw.

You started this mess so grow up and deal with it.


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## taxtell

Doc said:


> It's nice of you to post my web-site. I'm not sure where you got it from unless you were stalking me.
> 
> All my dogs have been x-rayed for hips; are checked every 6 months by a vet; and have been trained in ob with one receiving her CGC. So your comment about non tested dogs is bogus - much like everything else you have preached in here.
> 
> You absolutely know nothing about German shepherds and that is proven by your comment pertaining to Akitas and Corgi's.
> 
> If you really need to know, my 100% AKC registered German shepherd bloodlines have stayed intact for over 30 years. We do not have EPI, SIBO, allergies and a host of other disorders that are common in the today's bloodlines. I dare say a true BYB can make that claim. I've been involved with German shepherds probably longer than you have been alive and have forgotten more about this breed in a day than you will learn in a lifetime.
> 
> I have also posted the pedigrees of all my dogs. And if you know so much about German shepherds, you will see that my lines are built on very good stock. Of course from someone who has an ax to grind, it means nothing.
> 
> If you are upset with me, then leave the dogs out of your personal problems. And to be honest your title as "Vet Tech" means absolutely nothing when it comes to passing judgement on a breed you know nothing about. I will respond to all post in this thread in order to present the truth.
> 
> A word of advice, sometimes it best to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.


Actually someone else on DFC pointed your website out to me, while ridiculing your dogs. However it is clearly linked for some free advertising in your information, so it really wouldn't take much effort to find it. After all, it's free advertising! In addition, I think you're a troll and your posts are pointless. 
I couldn't care less what you think of me or my title, you act ignorant and rude, and your "friend" was totally out of control and volatile, which made you look even worse.

Perhaps you should try heeding your own advice.

I don't have to grow up and deal with anything, I had an opinion, you cared enough to get all bent out of shape and cry about it here.
Oh well.

Take it to PMs if you like, I'm done arguing with you here.


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## Doc

Marian said:


> There are already too many people breeding dogs in their backyard, in their spare time; why would we want to do it too?
> 
> I think the larger point NarysDad is missing is that we care about ALL dogs,regardless of breed. It's sad to see dogs that end up in shelters because an uneducated buyer bought a puppy from a BYB who didn't bother testing for genetic problems before the pups were born and couldn't afford the vet bills to make the dog well.
> 
> As for calling the GSD breeder to ask these questions, he's just one of thousands of unscrupulous people breeding to make money, and not for the betterment of the breed. It would be like bailing out a ship with a Dixie cup.


Listen, you do not know me, never met me or ever talked to me. To label me as unscrupulous and breeding to make money is a crock of sh- -. I've held on to a bloodline that produces healthy, structurally correct dogs for 30 years. Each litter is planned years in advanced and I hold back a pup from a cross to keep the bloodline in tack. I do not know many BYBs that can make this claim. 

You really should be careful before you put a bunch of labels on someone. It only illuminates what kind of person you are.


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## Doc

Keithsomething said:


> I'm just going to reiterate that no one is talking about you Nary... we were talking about the man who charges to potty train his dogs
> 
> Hmm I wonder if Miley and Billy Ray had to pay extra for a SEMI potty trained puppy?


I do not know many pups that are 100% house trained at 8 weeks. 

And no, they didn't have to pay extra for anything. They got the dog at 8 weeks.


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## Doc

taxtell said:


> Actually someone else on DFC pointed your website out to me, while ridiculing your dogs. However it is clearly linked for some free advertising in your information, so it really wouldn't take much effort to find it. After all, it's free advertising! In addition, I think you're a troll and your posts are pointless.
> I couldn't care less what you think of me or my title, you act ignorant and rude, and your "friend" was totally out of control and volatile, which made you look even worse.
> 
> Perhaps you should try heeding your own advice.
> 
> I don't have to grow up and deal with anything, I had an opinion, you cared enough to get all bent out of shape and cry about it here.
> Oh well.
> 
> Take it to PMs if you like, I'm done arguing with you here.


No argument from me, you just look like fool and exposed how little you know about me and German shepherds. You decided to call me a BYB - why, I have no idea. You continued to slam my practices, my dogs and everything else you know little about. What do you expect? For someone to bow down to you and not respond? You posted all this crap on a public forum. YOU should of taken it to a PM but you wanted to spread a bunch a lies about me. I'm no troll - that's your way of painting me as some perverted person.
But since you know everything and are a VET Tech, then there is nothing you could learn from someone who has been involved with German shepherds for a long time.

Next time you have an issue with me, send it via a PM.


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## Fluffyspoos

So I asked a friend to check out your website, unbiased, just asked her to review it for me and tell me what she thinks. She trains imported shepherds in SAR, narcotics, agility. Let me tell you a little of what she said

Oversized, bred for 'rare' color and coat types, no titles, theres some ofas, but what about eyes, hearts tyriod, anything else?, and in the blood lines have some of the dogs used to create the shiloh shepherds which are FULL of health issues (like EPI)

She's still going on about the problems with the dogs back in the bloodlines as I post this.

I laughed when she said Mylie Cyrus is an idiot to get a dog here.


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## Doc

taxtell said:


> They GAVE her that dog, in my understanding.
> A white one...


So I gave the dog away? Now that is very interesting. I suppose someone told you that too. Did you ever think your understanding could be wrong?

And why would you say something like that in this forum? It has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Besides, BYBs only breed for the money ...:bird:


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## Doc

Fluffyspoos said:


> So I asked a friend to check out your website, unbiased, just asked her to review it for me and tell me what she thinks. She trains imported shepherds in SAR, narcotics, agility. Let me tell you a little of what she said
> 
> Oversized, bred for 'rare' color and coat types, no titles, theres some ofas, but what about eyes, hearts tyriod, anything else?, and in the blood lines have some of the dogs used to create the shiloh shepherds which are FULL of health issues (like EPI)
> 
> She's still going on about the problems with the dogs back in the bloodlines as I post this.
> 
> I laughed when she said Mylie Cyrus is an idiot to get a dog here.


I would be happy to talk with your friend. I do not breed for rare colors. I have never produced a rare color. I have had no eye, heart,SIBO, EPI or thyroid issues in 30 years - thats why I have kept this bloodline around.Make sure you understand - german shepherds were used to create the Shiloe shepherd. AKC registered German shepherds were the foundation stock. What happened after that is anybody's guess. So do not make the leap that the GSDs contributed the health issues. I would be most interested on her comments on the dogs back in the bloodlines.

As far as Miley Cyrus being an idiot - I only screen to see if the pup will be in a good home. I leave any psychological exams to the professionals.


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## Fluffyspoos




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## Doc

Breeding rule number 1. One can not breed on pedigrees alone.

Your friend imports and trains dogs - which is a different process than breeding. It may interesting to ask her why she has to import the dogs she trains - is it because she can't find German shepherds in this country? Of course, she wouldn't buy from a BYB but I think there are still a few breeders that produce outstanding service dogs around. 

Oh I forgot, I am a BYB so I wouldn't have the mental capacity to research dogs in a pedigree and interact with them or their offspring and know their strengths and weaknesses or how to compensate when selecting a sire and dam. You're right and your friend is right because BYBs idiots that are the scum of the earth.

Next thing you will tell me is that Lloyd Brackett didn't know how to breed German shepherds.


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## taxtell

Doc said:


> Breeding rule number 1. One can not breed on pedigrees alone.
> 
> Your friend imports and trains dogs - which is a different process than breeding. It may interesting to ask her why she has to import the dogs she trains - is it because she can't find German shepherds in this country? Of course, she wouldn't buy from a BYB but I think there are still a few breeders that produce outstanding service dogs around.
> 
> Oh I forgot, I am a BYB so I wouldn't have the mental capacity to research dogs in a pedigree and interact with them or their offspring and know their strengths and weaknesses or how to compensate when selecting a sire and dam. You're right and your friend is right because BYBs idiots that are the scum of the earth.
> 
> Next thing you will tell me is that Lloyd Brackett didn't know how to breed German shepherds.


Now you're just being petulant.


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## plumcrazy

This thread has been closed by request.


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