# "All breeders with a website are a business"



## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

During my search for a breeder I ended up making a call to the referral contact listed on the Poodle Club of America website, and I was told that “all breeders who have a website are a business.” That essentially any breeder with a website is using it for advertisement purposes and breeding too many litters, not taking into account the health of their dogs, and is not a true hobby breeder, etc. This view struck me as pretty odd (and ironic, I did find the phone number on a website, after all). I am new to poodles, but not new to the world of purebred dogs. I know of multiple breeders with websites whom I consider to be very reputable. 

Now, obviously there are puppy mills and BYBs out there with websites – but to say ANY breeder with a website shouldn’t ever be considered? That left me a bit perplexed. 

Has anybody else encountered this mindset?


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Sometimes you'll find people whose breeder standards have become so stringent that practically everyone is a bad breeder. It's like if you didn't have to hike up a mountain in the coldest part of winter just to find the guru who could assign the quest you need to complete in order to get placed on a waiting list for the waiting list, your breeder isn't really doing this for the right reasons.

I'm not sure what it's about, exactly. A lot of the time it just seems to be an individual person's perceptions coloring the way they see others - like if you're the kind of person who never touches technology unless you have to, maybe you think worse of people who use it all the time? Or maybe it's just an elitism thing.

Anyway, I think breeder websites are very helpful, and there's nothing wrong with a breeder wanting to show off their dogs online.

I also understand being wary of people who are _only_ breeding for the money, but it's okay if they operate somewhat like a business. They do charge money, after all. I wouldn't say someone doesn't really love, say, quilting just because they happen to sell their extra quilts on Etsy when they finish them.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

I agree with the statement that all breeders who have a website are a "business", but as for the additional claim - that any breeder with a website is a not a good breeder - is that your own deduction based on the referral contact's previous statement (that website = business), or did the contact him/herself make that additional claim? If the contact was the one who made the additional claim, I agree that's pretty odd - and frankly, hypocritical, since PCA itself has a website! But, if the contact only made the first statement (that website = business) then I'm ok with that. Yes, there is a "business component" to a breeder - that is a factual statement unless the breeder literally gives away all his/her puppies for free, and never gets paid for his/her dogs. But, just because something is a business doesn't mean it's automatically bad - so it's the second statement that's troublesome, and that's why I'm wondering, did the contact really make that second statement?

Kevin


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Goodness! I had a web site for years and certainly was not a business (but was a computer professional). That was a terrible statement for someone at PCA to make!

An outstanding example is that Deb of Arreau standard poodles has a great web site and does, indeed, breed and sell poodles. That does not, however, make it a "business". Many breeders maintain web sites - and thank goodness for it! Those sites provide a great deal information to us all.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

kchen95 said:


> I agree with the statement that all breeders who have a website are a "business", but as for the additional claim - that any breeder with a website is a not a good breeder - is that your own deduction based on the referral contact's previous statement (that website = business), or did the contact him/herself make that additional claim? If the contact was the one who made the additional claim, I agree that's pretty odd - and frankly, hypocritical, since PCA itself has a website! But, if the contact only made the first statement (that website = business) then I'm ok with that. Yes, there is a "business component" to a breeder - that is a factual statement unless the breeder literally gives away all his/her puppies for free, and never gets paid for his/her dogs. But, just because something is a business doesn't mean it's automatically bad - so it's the second statement that's troublesome, and that's why I'm wondering, did the contact really make that second statement?
> 
> Kevin


Yes, the contact went on to say everything I listed. To be honest I didn't really get a chance to contribute much to the conversation. She was most definitely expressing the belief that any breeder with a website is not reputable (producing too many litters, breeding for profit only, not doing all recommended health testing, etc.), and that "true hobby breeders" operate through word of mouth and are _not_ a business because they do not breed for profit. 

I just do not understand how having a website = breeding for profit. I know of multiple breeders (not poodles, for what it's worth) who breed 1-2 litters a year, do all health testing recommended for the breed, and use their websites to showcase the accomplishments of their dogs.
Edit - I should add that in my search for a breeder I also came across many poodle breeders with websites who seem very reputable (including the breeder I am going with)! 

I was honestly just very taken aback by the comments from the PCA contact.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

as someone who has a kennel website and doesn't breed dogs (and won't for many years) i find that statement silly and completely untrue. 

many hobby breeders tend to be of the older and therefore less (statistically speaking) computer savvy generation. i suspect your PCA contact might be one of that group, and isn't aware that putting together a website is as easy as "point, click, and type"


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

I don't understand understand the perception that breeders are not-for-profit. Period. I don't care if it is only two litters a year. 

Let's say they have seven pups per litter for a total of 14. And let's say they charge 2000 dollars per pup. That's 28000. 

Not even a part of me believes they are reinvesting that amount money back into their dogs/business. In fact, it's even harder to believe for folks who are ONLY producing a couple litters a year (based on the assumption they have only a couple / handful of adult dogs). 

Do people actually believe someone is spending 28000 dollars on upkeep for their three adult dogs? That's insane. Seriously. 

Breeders make money. To think otherwise is just silly. 

This is a big peeve of mine. Along with testing and two year guarantees.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

forest said:


> I don't understand understand the perception that breeders are not-for-profit. Period. I don't care if it is only two litters a year.
> 
> Let's say they have seven pups per litter for a total of 14. And let's say they charge 2000 dollars per pup. That's 28000.
> 
> ...


From what I understand reputable breeders certainly do reinvest money into their dogs - traveling to shows, health clearances for new breeding prospects, vet bills for mother and pups, etc. 
Perhaps I should have said breeding _solely_ for profit. My point is that reputable breeders are not making a living off of the puppies they produce.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Oh, I'm sure there's some reinvestment. But not 100% of their earnings. Theres no way. They make profit. Even perceived "reputable" breeders.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

“all breeders who have a website are a business.” That essentially any breeder with a website is using it for advertisement purposes and breeding too many litters, not taking into account the health of their dogs, and is not a true hobby breeder"

If this is truly what the person said, verbatim, it is only ludicrous once you get to the second part of it. One doesn't necessarily beget the other, that is, Website = irresponsible breeding. Nor is the opposite necessarily true.

But do we all need to spend $2000 dollars for an even tempered, healthy pet? Are hobby breeders bad? or good. Does spending that much money guarantee that you have purchased from someone who also works at a job and therefore is not looking to make a living breeding dogs...or just the opposite.

I agree somewhat with forest.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

forest said:


> Oh, I'm sure there's some reinvestment. But not 100% of their earnings. Theres no way. They make profit. Even perceived "reputable" breeders.


I'm not a breeder but co-own a dog with a breeder. Before this dog, I might have agreed with your sentiment. Now I have seen first hand what it costs to raise and own a dog that is intended to breed. Costs to show are not minimal, and there's no guarantee that you'll win quickly to gain the title needed to "prove" the line. Overnight shows require hotel stays. The cost of health tests is not trivial--although I've taken my dog for testing, the breeder reimburses me. One blood test alone was over $200.

Responsible breeders produce maybe three litters from a female, then the expenses accrue again with a new dam.

Sorry that the PCA rep spoke harshly. I really appreciate a thorough breeder's web site where I don't need to wonder why health test results are not explicit. I especially like the sites that also provide educational information about a variety of canine/poodle issues, nutrition, exercise, grooming, etc.

P.S. I didn't pay $2000 for my spoo--is that an actual average?


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

forest said:


> I don't understand understand the perception that breeders are not-for-profit. Period. I don't care if it is only two litters a year.
> 
> Let's say they have seven pups per litter for a total of 14. And let's say they charge 2000 dollars per pup. That's 28000.
> 
> ...


28,000 x 3 litters = 84,000 over 30 months

x 4 litters = 112,000 

x 3 bitches etc. 

Someone else can deduct what expenses might possibly have been incurred.

I am somewhat unsympathetic because I know in the business setting I am retired from..."the more you spend, the more you make". If you can get this or that license, degree, workshop certification to your credit,

the better the advertising (website in this case) looks. And the more people will trust your expertise and want to buy from you.

And, (here's the big lesson...) "People go where people go."


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Three litters = 21 pups in this theory world. That's 42,000 dollars. I Would like to see itemized receipts detailing how that money was spent. 

I'm not anti-breeder. I just don't understand this made-up, arbitrary view of what makes a breeder "good" or "reputable" based on money - based on the idea that a good breeder is not making money. 

I apologize. I didn't mean to comment so much on this thread.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

People expect a web presence these days whether it's a church, a government department or a poodle breeder. The PCA official seems to be unfairly slamming most reputable breeders with that analog outlook.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I think that what people mean when they say that it is not a business is that if breeding is done right, it is a crappy way to make a living. I am all in favor of businesses and I think there a lots of good ways to make money and do something worthwhile at the same time. But with dog breeding, well..... it is more of a hobby. Definitely not a good way to make money, unless you cut a lot of corners.

If you are one of the good breeders (my idea of a good breeder anyway), then:
-- you only have 4 or 5 dogs and they live in your home for their whole lives as a member of your family getting treated with all of the love and respect that they deserve. (Or maybe you have a few more living with your sister or trusted friend.)
-- you show your dogs (very time-consuming and/or expensive)
-- you do the recommended health testing (not too expensive)
-- you know a lot about poodle genetics, poodle health, poodle structure, and how to produce beautiful, healthy dogs with solid temperaments.
-- you seek out good stud dogs that bring new genetic material to your breeding program, and you know how to evaluate what a stud dog will bring to your planned breeding 
-- when your bitch is pregnant, whelping, and then raising her puppies, you have the knowledge and time (a lot of time) to provide her with the support that she needs. A happy well-supported momma dog will raise happy confident puppies.
-- your bitch does a lot of the work of raising the pups when they are very young, but you must have the knowledge and time to properly socialize them, give them lots of good experiences and get them well on the way to being house trained.
-- you need to be able to handle things that go wrong -- stillbirths, problems with whelping, health issues, etc. That takes knowledge, experience, time and/or money.
-- you need to be prepared to not breed a dog that doesn't pass health testing or that has some health problem, even if you have invested a lot of time, money and emotional energy in that dog.
...and there are probably other things that I'm not thinking of right now.

If you treat breeding like a business, then there are just so many ways to cut corners and increase your profits. After all, the idea of a business is to make money, right?
-- you can have more dogs, keep them in kennels.
-- your momma dogs can be sad, unloved and overbred (the saddest 3 poodles I have ever seen were breeding dogs -- just heartbreaking)
-- you can breed each bitch more frequently
-- retire your bitches when they are no longer producing for you (sell them as adults)
-- you can feed your dogs cheap kibble.
-- show your dogs only if the market (puppy buyers) is willing to pay more for dogs with titles
-- let the mommas raise their puppies. No need for you to spend much time with them. The new owners can house train them.
-- if all of your dogs are barking too much, you can have them surgically debarked (yes, breeders do that).
-- breed whatever dog you have. No need to be too careful about choosing. All puppies look cute anyway and the buyers don't care about structure and won't find out about health or temperament issues until much later.

So that's the way your run a business. The idea is to make money -- limit your expense and sell the pups for as much as you can. There are lots of breeders that are in the business of puppy making. Not the kind of breeder I'd want to buy from.

PS If you are adding up the cost and profits that a good breeder has, I think it is important to take into account the huge amount of time that a good breeder puts into showing her dogs, taking care of momma and puppies, and communicating with the puppy buyers. If you do it right, it is VERY time-consuming. I raised one litter and after all the pups went to their new owners, my friends were all welcoming me back to the world of doing stuff with them. They said I completely disappeared for a couple of months.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

I agree that it is very silly to equate bad breeders with those who have websites. 

And mostly I just wanted to say that Peppersb is spot on, 100% accurate with her description of hobby breeding vs breeding for profit. Thank you Peppersb for chiming in here and giving such good info. I too would have believed otherwise long ago, but now that I have been working very closely with a breeder who has no thought for profit, I am just amazed at the difference. I think it's one of those things that most people cant really grasp the concept of unless they experience it firsthand.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

*Cost of raising puppies*

I can guarantee you that if you raise top quality puppies you are not going to make money.

First of all, if you plan to sell puppies in the $1500-$2000 range, you are going to have to show the dam. Dog showing makes money - but not for exhibitors! I just put in entries for two shows for my puppy - that was $56. The shows are 350 miles away, so there will be considerable expense for travel even if I pull our little travel trailer and stay on the grounds. Completing a championship owner-handled usually costs at least $3000 in entry fees and travel expense. If you use a professional handler the costs skyrocket.

Second - good breeders do a great deal of health testing and certification. I suspect that easily exceeds $1000 per dog - and not all dogs certify.

Third - good breeders spend money to provide a good environment for their dogs. They invest a great deal of time as well.

We used to joke that "there's money in purebred dogs - I know because I put it there!"


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

forest said:


> Breeders make money. To think otherwise is just silly.
> 
> This is a big peeve of mine. Along with testing and two year guarantees.


Why are you not pleased that responsible breeders are testing and providing guarantees?

Personally, I would not buy a puppy from a breeder who does not test breeding stock and who only breeds to males who have been tested for genetic issues.

I don't expect a two-year guarantee, but I certainly expect some kind of health guarantee.

One other thing - a breeder keeps the best puppies (or places them with a breeding agreement) hoping they will turn out to be good. That often does not turn out to be the case. 

Long ago I had a wonderful young male standard who was much admired by the poodle fancy. I turned down a huge offer for him because I loved him dearly - it was an offer so large I could have paid off my mortgage. He made the final cut at PCA but had to be taken out of the ring because he started vomiting. We rushed home to take him to the vet. The vet performed a tonsillectomy, but the dog died on the table. He was only 3 1/2 years old. 

I tell this story because it is a good example of how you can spend a huge amount of money as a breeder and/or stud owner and come away with nothing but debt.

So Forest, please do not think the good breeders are in it for money.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

It's not that I'm unhappy. Again, I'm not anti-breeder. In fact, I think breeding has a role and an important one. 

I'm unhappy with the precepts of breeding and how lines have been drawn that make no sense and/or just simply false. 

I have no problem with breeders making money - if the animals and well treated and loved. 

I have a problem with person x saying "oh, this breeder is reputable. S/he doesn't make money" when in fact, they are making thousands of dollars. The issue is with how some people will sing the praises of one and condemn another even though little, or nothing, separates them. 

Testing: most tests mean little to nothing. They either are telling you what can be confirmed through parentage or they are telling what is going on with a dog in that specific moment of time. 

Let's take hip testing - it only tells you what is going on AT THAT MOMENT (and this is setting aside that OFA only gets the X-rays sent to them and the highly subjective interpretation of those X-rays ). They themselves do not guarantee their work. They say this on their site. Yet people still swear by them even though they are saying don't. Haha. There are many contributing factors that go into hip dysplasia and the degree of dysplasia. If every dog that tested good were actually good, and bred, there would be no need for the test. 

The two year guarantee means nothing. Literally. Most big diseases happen after that age including hip dysplasia, which is why you are being offered a two year guarantee- that's not accidental. As I'm sure you know, you can't even test for hip dysplasia until the dog is two. 

If you want comfort from the breeder, look for a lifetime guarantee on hips and a good 8 or 10 years for things like Addisons. 

You want a breeder who is going to tell you these things. Someone's who's going to be open and transparent and truthful. 

There's way tooooo much false information and downright scams.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Another example: vWD. If the parents were tested, why are you testing their offspring?

There's no need. We already know they're negative. 

Etc. etc.


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

My point: breeders who stand by their dogs for life - who love their dogs and treat them as such are "reputable" breeders. 

Money, showing, etc isn't what a makes a good breeder. 

Just this past weekend at a show I witnessed a "reputable" breeder treat her dogs.....well, let's say she treated them in a way I didn't like. There's no way I would purchase a dog from her. In fact, there's no chance I'll have much to do with her at all. 

Yet, if you read online forums, she checks all the boxes of a "reputable" breeder. 

Not so, imo.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

While people who do not breed sit down and think about how much money we breeders must be making, it amazes me the things they do not think about. To do what I envisioned I needed to start a second line to breed to my first. I imported Quincy from Iceland and Journey and Jameson from the Czech Republic. All three were championed (Quincy and Journey are Canadian champions and Jameson is an American champion, Grand champion and Canadian champion). All three were shown and show groomed by pro handlers. Do you have a clue what THAT costs? All three were fully health tested with great results. (Another big expense). Jameson was bred to one of my original line, who the year before had fourteen puppies. She did not get pregnant. Off to the vet, a holistic vet, three fertility vets. He has fertility issues and may never sire a litter. We have taken a $16,000 hit and still counting because he has more visits with the fertility vet coming. 

I am Canadian and to date have traveled to the US for three breedings with boys I have admired for a long time- stud services from $1.500 US to $2,500 US. I am honoured and thrilled to have been able to use these gentlemen, but do you know what that translates to in Canadian dollars? As well as the hotel, gas, meals, health insurance for the trips? (Again in US converted to Canadian dollars? YOWZA!!) And prior to breeding we have progesterone testing to ensure we are going to travel on the right days. AND we have had a couple of emergency c-sections which cost about the same as a stud fee. And a pregnancy confirming ultrasound or x-ray.

We have since championed Journey's daughter Pearl and are on our way with a younger daughter Naomi. Do you know what a pro handler/groomer costs? And travel to shows? And entry fees? And meals on the road?

When you have a litter your heating/cooling costs for your home double, trying to keep your puppies at the best temperature. Food costs are insane because on top of food there is goats milk and yoghurt on every meal. You have the litter's first vet exam, shot and micro-chip purchase/insertion. In Canada it is mandated that by law each puppy has to be registered. Do you know what that costs? And gas back and forth to the airport to send puppies off to their new homes when you live in a rural area and are two hours from an airport? 

I have been blessed this past three months to be taking part in the co-ownership of two more imported males- one from Croatia and one from Poland. Do you have a clue what is costs to purchase and ship from Europe? Or to register a foreign born dog in North America? Or title it? Or health test it?

Oh yeah...then there is the annual cost of one's web site and advertising on a few choice sites where advertisers are limited to those who can prove they are properly health testing their breeding dogs. 

I think it would be a good idea for people to educate themselves before they jump to conclusions. Dog breeding, if done properly, is not like winning Powerball! It is a LOT of hard work and it is VERY expensive!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

The point of having a litter of puppies is to hopefully find the one, the future BIS show winner at Westminster or PCA. It's not to sell puppies at $2k a pop to companion owners, although, I'm personally glad that's a consequence. We have some gorgeous poodles on PF from many of the top breeders. 

A few years ago, I gifted myself with a subscription to Poodle Variety. It has really given me an appreciation of what beautiful poodles are being produced in all three sizes. Our breed has bench strength in every size and color. How cool is it to see a GCH Toy with an OTCH on the cover? Or a du Nola or Farley's in the PCA issue?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

forest said:


> Oh, I'm sure there's some reinvestment. But not 100% of their earnings. Theres no way. They make profit. Even perceived "reputable" breeders.


If they were making so much money, why would a lot of them have to work 40 hours a week outside the house ?

Have you ever been to the house of a breeder who tests the parents, attends dog shows, does all necessary vet care, c-sections when needed and so forth ? Have you really ? I have. To many of them, maybe more than a dozen. And none of them had an expensive house. None of them had brand new cars, a big pool and such luxury items. They all had regular, working people houses. 

When those breeders tell me they barely break even with the money they make, when they tell me they are doing it for their passion of the breed, I do believe them. And you should too.

Those who are making money are the ones who don't care about the breed or their puppies and dogs. They are very easily recognizable.

Not everyone only wants money in life, you know !


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Well, I'm a vet medicine student. So, yes, I'm around breeders everyday. I did three clinicals with breeders (dog and equine). 

And yet, I'm having a hard time finding a breeder to get a dog from. 

Hmmm.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

forest said:


> My point: breeders who stand by their dogs for life - who love their dogs and treat them as such are "reputable" breeders.
> 
> Money, showing, etc isn't what a makes a good breeder.
> 
> ...


I do not know all of the intricacies of breeding and showing...but, I don't think anyone is saying that a reputable breeder is one who is not making any money, as if that is the only qualifier for "reputable." I mean, two people could breed their dogs together "for fun" and give the puppies away for free and no one is going to be labeling them as "reputable breeders." 

Rather, the primary reason a reputable breeder is breeding is _not_ for making money. It is for the love of their breed/improvement of the breed, to keep a show/conformation and/or working(sporting, herding, etc) breeding prospect for themselves, and as a byproduct to provide healthy puppies with sound conformation to performance and companion homes. Maybe they make a small profit on one litter, break even on another, lose money on another, etc. but they are not going in with the mindset of "I am going to breed dogs to make money."


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

forest said:


> It's not that I'm unhappy. Again, I'm not anti-breeder. In fact, I think breeding has a role and an important one.
> 
> I'm unhappy with the precepts of breeding and how lines have been drawn that make no sense and/or just simply false.
> 
> ...


Testing is a very interesting topic, and I'm glad there's someone here who may be able to shed some light on this, as I'm certainly one of those amateurs who simply assumed "testing = good = responsible" - but I know my own cousin, who's a practicing vet, also has issues with this but I simply haven't engaged him in a more in-depth discussion on why he has issues with it.

So Forest, I would love for you (or anyone else with expertise in this area) to chime in. Are you saying that testing is essentially irrelevant because looking at the ancestry of a pup is a much better indicator of whether the pup will be healthy? For example take hip dysplasia - if the pup's parents, grandparents and great grandparents all had sound hips throughout their lifetimes, that's a better predictor of whether the pup will have sound hips, than whatever an OFA testing result says? Or even on an overall holistic level, if the pup's parents, grandparents and great grandparents all lived (or are still living) long, healthy lives largely free of genetic diseases, that's a better predictor of whether the pup will live a similarly long, healthy life, and no additional testing will further increase (or decrease) the likelihood? And if this is true, is there any positive role that can be played by testing?

Forest you mentioned the possibility of offering lifetime or 10-year health guarantees. If I were a conscientious breeder and my objective is solely to make certain that I can fulfill these guarantees, what specifically would I need to do in my breeding program to ensure that my dogs really have a much better chance of being healthy than, say, puppy mill dogs? Is it simply picking healthy ancestry, as I mentioned above? Or, healthy ancestry supplemented by additional testing?

Would love to hear your thoughts. Tks!

Kevin


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


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## Poodle-y (Jan 5, 2017)

Novice alert: what is wrong with breeders being a "business" or "making money"?? I'm more than happy to pay for a dog that comes with a lifetime of someone's skill and care to produce quality pups... Even knowing that dogs never come with a perfect health or temperament guarantee. Good grief, breeders should be compensated for their efforts and knowledge in producing a lifelong companion. I had a sweet girl that did not work out, but do not fault our breeder....


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia


"Do not ignore the dog with a fair hip evaluation. The dog is still within normal limits. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a strong hip background and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect."

It seems like even OFA is acknowledging that ancestry is a better predictor of strong hips for a puppy than any test result. That's the way I read the above quote from OFA. Is that right?

Kevin


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

This thread has many discussions going on, but back to the 
Websites: in the very thoughtful description peppsb gave of her view of what a good breeder is, compared to the less reputable, in-it-for-the-money breeder - which one would have the website? Answer: Both! So, the PCA contact certainly was off base with her remarks if that is what she actually said.

But I have wanted to ask for a while, what is so wrong with the owner of a healthy, even tempered dog, who knows the parents of this dog and their health and longevity,
mating the dog with a known female who is also healthy, smart, calm, and a lover of all she meets.

The goal is not a champion at Westminster, nor 1500$ puppies. The goal is a healthy replacement for the beloved aging sire…one more puppy from that line to grow old with the owner.

This is not a Back Yard Breeder as I understand such….this is a Personal Litter. The additional puppies would be sold with a spay/neuter agreement and, in fact, with reimbursement toward a portion of those costs. The price of each puppy? very modest, and with a lifetime guarantee. Would the “breeder” even break even? Far from it. But that would not have been the goal.

By the way, this is not a hypothetical.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Beautiful Blue said:


> This thread has many discussions going on, but back to the
> Websites: in the very thoughtful description peppsb gave of her view of what a good breeder is, compared to the less reputable, in-it-for-the-money breeder - which one would have the website? Answer: Both! So, the PCA contact certainly was off base with her remarks if that is what she actually said.
> 
> But I have wanted to ask for a while, what is so wrong with the owner of a healthy, even tempered dog, who knows the parents of this dog and their health and longevity,
> ...


I would say when it comes to ethical concerns regarding dog breeding, you have a couple of major things you need to address:

1) Epidemic levels of pets abandoned and in shelters (overpopulation, bad pet placement, irresponsible owners, etc.)
2) Genetic health and longevity
3) Proper temperament and physical conformation

The first one, in my opinion, is the most pressing and is the reason the bar can get so high for a breeder. With puppies born in high-kill shelters and ditches/streets all around the world, why is this breeder contributing more? What justifies these puppies being born at this time? 

And once they are born, what is this breeder doing to make sure that they go to happy homes and never get abandoned, abused, or left at a shelter? 

The second is primarily a concern in the purebred world, where closed studbooks can lead to terrible genetic bottlenecks. What is the breeder doing to make sure that they're not passing on genetic diseases?

Point 3 really falls under the other two, I suppose, as it's all about making sure you have stable pets who will fit in well in their chosen homes (whether for work, performance, or as pets) and will have the physical structure to ensure they live healthy and happy lives.

So, does this pet breeding meet all these conditions? Assuming sound, healthy, genetically diverse dogs, I think the overpopulation question is your toughest hurdle. What are they trying to accomplish with this breeding that they (and their buyers) couldn't get from a shelter dog, an accidental breeding, or a washout from some kind of purpose-bred litter? Not knowing the dogs, I can't answer that, but it's something to consider. If "oops" litters and discarded rescue/shelter dogs weren't so widely available, I'd be fine with backyard breeding as long as they thought about health outcomes. But given the problems we already have with abandoned and mistreated dogs, it's a little harder to justify IMO.


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## Anza (Jul 15, 2017)

I like it that breeders have websites. It gives you an idea of what they are about and what they are working with. I would also think that it would better the breed of dog that they are breeding as the Internet is worldwide and breeders can colaborate with each other on a larger scale instead of being limited to their emediate surroundings.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Beautiful Blue said:


> This thread has many discussions going on, but back to the
> Websites: in the very thoughtful description peppsb gave of her view of what a good breeder is, compared to the less reputable, in-it-for-the-money breeder - which one would have the website? Answer: Both! So, the PCA contact certainly was off base with her remarks if that is what she actually said.
> 
> But I have wanted to ask for a while, what is so wrong with the owner of a healthy, even tempered dog, who knows the parents of this dog and their health and longevity,
> ...


Very interesting post. Thank you. 

I have a lot of thoughts about the question you raise, mostly mixed.

1. I think anyone who breeds a "personal litter" must know for sure that they will be able to find good homes for all of the puppies. You do not want to be in a position of having 12 pups and only wanting one. Poodle rescue organizations may not be willing to help. They are hesitant to support breeders who breed and then can't place their puppies.

2. If you look at my descriptions of "good" and "bad" breeders above, I think there are lots and lots of breeders that fall sort of in between. A lot of breeders are at least sort of motivated by the money they can make. They check off all of the requirements to be considered "reputable" -- health testing, showing their dogs (and getting championships), puppies raised in their homes (but maybe the adults are kept in kennels), health guarantee (I'm not a big believer in health guarantees, but that is another story). But some of these breeders have too many dogs, too many litters, and the dogs are not loved and supported the way I think they should be. That means that the puppies do not get raised by a happy well-supported momma dog, and they do not get the best start in life. Animal welfare is extremely important to me, especially the welfare of breeding poodles. As I said before, some of the saddest poodles I have ever seen were breeding dogs. That is not OK. Personally, I would rather get a puppy from your friend who is breeding to a friend's dog than from one of these "reputable" breeders that does not love and support their breeding dogs.

3. Not sure why the price would have to be modest, and not sure why you would need to give a lifetime guarantee. Raising a litter is a lot of work. Also, I am a little nervous about selling poodle puppies for a modest fee. Poodles are expensive to own. Are you sure that you are getting good homes and that the buyer will take good care of their cheap puppy?

4. Health testing. I do think that people think that health testing provides more assurance than it actually does. There is no test for the most important illnesses that affect standard poodles. But you certainly don't want to be breeding a litter that has neonatal encephalitis (all of the puppies would die) or Von Willebrands when a simple DNA test is available to make sure that puppies will not have these conditions. For a very good summary of what health testing does and does not provide, see: Poodles de Grenier

5. Expertise. So how much does expertise matter? Can you just put two dogs together, wait for puppies to be born and let nature take its course? Answer: maybe, maybe not. Sometimes I think our society is too safety conscious and putting too much in the hands of self-proclaimed expertise. So I am sympathetic to just going forward on your own. But there are significant risks. Just from my own experience:
a. When I was in college, my parents bred their GSD. My mom had no idea under the sun what she was doing, and the mother of the litter seemed a bit confused too. Three of the puppies were fully formed but stillborn. My mom thought maybe she could have saved them if she'd known what to do. Not ideal. But 6 out of 10 puppies survived (one puppy died in a preventable accident).
b. I bred Cammie and raised my own litter. I had no experience, but I was working very closely with an experienced poodle breeder. Let me tell you, I needed her help. Really needed it. Michelle (the breeder) was there with us every step of the way, including being with Cammie and me for 23 hours straight on the day/night that the puppies were born. To make a long story short, Cammie needed a c-section. I totally relied on Michelle (the breeder) as we went through the process of trying to figure out what to do when contractions slowed down after the water broke. All of the puppies were saved, and Cammie survived and was a great momma. Michelle checked on us frequently and we were in even more frequent contact by telephone. I actually needed her help. What do you do when your momma-dog's breasts are so big and filled with milk that they were painful and she didn't want to nurse? Michelle had all of the answers. I really needed her.
c. I know a breeder that had a puppy that was stillborn (not my litter). The pup died well before birth and was very difficult to deliver. Because the breeder was experienced, she knew what to do, and was able to deliver the stillborn puppy. The mother and the puppies that came after the dead one were all OK. 

I think that expertise really matters when/if things go wrong. And sometimes things do go wrong. So I'd strongly recommend having some expertise readily available. 

But I think people don't pay enough attention to the fact that momma dogs need to be in a loving, secure and happy environment. So that is the big plus on the side of the plan for a "personal litter." That, and the fact that you can really know about the temperament of the parent dogs.


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

Remember, this is a forum for all poodle owners, so I feel free to tell my experience.

I said it was not hypothetical because it is exactly what transpired about 10 ½ years ago…and one of the highlights of my long life.

I just visited the dear friend - best friend from childhood - in April. It was her 9 year old male who sired the litter – cross country – sperm delivered via Fedex. 

Her beautiful pick of the litter “pup” is now 10 years old. I’ve seen that dog and “loved her up” 3 or 4 times in those intervening years and she always remembers me and my husband and is over the moon to see us. (memory) The lovely sire has been gone about 5 years, lived to be 14 ½.

We could surmise from parentage the health of the male and female, but I had the OFA testing done anyway, just to be sure. As it was explained to me she fell in to the highest rating. We had 5 additional owners lined up before the litter was born but there were only 4 pups….vet said lucky with “one shot” attempt that it happened at all, LOL.

I am still in touch with all owners. All dogs well and happy with the exception of one who was bitten by a snake in AZ and developed a fatal anemia of some sort at age 6.
My dear friend is ill with complications of lupus, which was diagnosed many years ago and one of the reasons I wanted to help her with her wish. Her husband still thanks me.

And the “Puppy Trip” !!! I think I have chatted about that elsewhere on this forum. Sister, good friend, myself, 2 crates, 4 puppies, Mini-van, laughter, talk, pictures, beautiful scenery. And once we were “puppyless” we enjoyed an even more awesome trip on the way back home.

Certainly not trying to start another argument.
Nor condone or promote personal litters. 

Just my experience, and it was awesome.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Beautiful Blue said:


> Remember, this is a forum for all poodle owners, so I feel free to tell my experience.
> 
> I said it was not hypothetical because it is exactly what transpired about 10 ½ years ago…and one of the highlights of my long life.
> 
> ...


What a beautiful story! Thanks for sharing. Having homes for the puppies lined up makes all the difference in my mind. I love hearing that this was one of the highlights of your life! Sounds just perfect.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Just going back to the "do breeders make money" question, I'd like to see financials on a reputable breeding business, but I haven't found anyone willing to share. I suspect that most reputable breeders don't make much off of a litter, but that alone sets them far ahead of competition owners, who often spend $15k/year on their dogs and get nothing but ribbons and titles in return.


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I know many many standard poodle breeders (albeit mostly of a certain type, i.e., active in showing/performance) and I can name only a couple, out of dozens, who have two litters a year. Of the breeders I know, I'd say the modal litter frequency is a litter every other year. That just changed your math by a LOT!

You also seem to be assuming some sort of immaculate conception that involves zero breeding costs. I've had two litters and paid stud fees both times, traveled interstate to do the breeding once (got lucky the second time and bred her at the national specialty), and did progesterone testing both times. I could go on. Long story short, I did the math for the first litter, and my conservative estimate for my expenses worked out to about $1000 per puppy. 

Also, most hobby breeders breed for themselves to have their next show prospect. It's a good thing to buy from a breeder who eats her own cooking, but another factor that reduces the "profits." 

Do some breeders make money on a litter? Of course. Is it a profitable enterprise for many? Not really. 



forest said:


> I don't understand understand the perception that breeders are not-for-profit. Period. I don't care if it is only two litters a year.
> 
> Let's say they have seven pups per litter for a total of 14. And let's say they charge 2000 dollars per pup. That's 28000.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Websites are needed today, or you miss a lot of opportunity. If a hobby breeder or a professional breeder for dogs or anything else, your product needs to be on the web. However, you can put anything on the website, I still feel the only way to see what the breeder is really like is a personal visit, or send someone you trust to scope out the breeders, dogs and facility. 

As far as making money I would use the term profit on a littler, and hobby or professional, I want to see them make a profit. Breeding and owning poodles is expensive, I know what I spend on 3 adult dogs, and it is a lot with grooming, regular vet bills, etc. Owning a dog is a lot of work, so I cannot imagine the amount of work when breeding. 

Any business you are in you have to spend money to make money, so that is just what is necessary for a good breeder to do, same as any other business. I assume serious breeder make a good profit, depending on the number of pups each litter has. I would think a toy breeder would have to have a good number of adults since the litter is small 2to to 4 pumps. A standard breeder I understand can have from 6 to 12 pups a big difference in the product you have to sell. Personally, I could never breed a dog, as my nervous would never take them going through the pain, so I will stay with selling houses no breeder in my blood line.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Well, I am coming a little late to this discussion, but I personally have no problem at all with a good breeder making a profit. How else, barring an unearned income, are they to be able to spend the requisite time, energy and resources researching, testing, breeding and raising puppies? Take the example of two litters, 14 puppies, $28,000. There is the original cost of the dams; their care, feeding and veterinary bills; proving them in either the show ring or in sports; genetic and other testing; stud fees and either travel or AI fees; scans and other pregnancy related fees; possible emergency cesarean; whelping box and equipment - all that before any puppy is even born. Then there is the time element - birthing and raising puppies is an intensive time if done right, and if puppies need hand rearing it becomes even more so, with two hourly feeds day and night. Once pups are up and about the fun really starts! Meanwhile the breeder has to live and to eat... Once expenses are deducted, the "profit" is probably a few thousand dollars a litter, for hundreds of hours of work. 

Why should a breeder not expect a fair return for the risks, the expense and the time invested in producing a puppy that will be a part of my family for the next 15 years, with luck? Just because puppy mills breed solely for profit does not mean that anyone expecting to make a reasonable profit is a mill.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

fjm said:


> Well, I am coming a little late to this discussion, but I personally have no problem at all with a good breeder making a profit. How else, barring an unearned income, are they to be able to spend the requisite time, energy and resources researching, testing, breeding and raising puppies? Take the example of two litters, 14 puppies, $28,000. There is the original cost of the dams; their care, feeding and veterinary bills; proving them in either the show ring or in sports; genetic and other testing; stud fees and either travel or AI fees; scans and other pregnancy related fees; possible emergency cesarean; whelping box and equipment - all that before any puppy is even born. Then there is the time element - birthing and raising puppies is an intensive time if done right, and if puppies need hand rearing it becomes even more so, with two hourly feeds day and night. Once pups are up and about the fun really starts! Meanwhile the breeder has to live and to eat... Once expenses are deducted, the "profit" is probably a few thousand dollars a litter, for hundreds of hours of work.
> 
> Why should a breeder not expect a fair return for the risks, the expense and the time invested in producing a puppy that will be a part of my family for the next 15 years, with luck? Just because puppy mills breed solely for profit does not mean that anyone expecting to make a reasonable profit is a mill.


Personally, I am not meaning to give the impression that I do not think breeders should make money. Of course they should be compensated for all of their hard work! When a breeder is truly passionate about their dogs, by nature a portion of the profit they make is going to be reinvested into their hobby, "business", or whatever you (general) want to label it. And if they do make a slight profit on top of what is reinvested? Wonderful! 

I think the important thing here is intent. There is a huge difference between the above scenario and somebody who makes the decision to breed dogs for the _sole purpose_ of earning money.


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## Rocpoodle (Jul 15, 2017)

Rocpoodle said:


> Personally, I am not meaning to give the impression that I do not think breeders should make money. Of course they should be compensated for all of their hard work! When a breeder is truly passionate about their dogs, by nature a portion of the profit they make is going to be reinvested into their hobby, "business", or whatever you (general) want to label it. And if they do make a slight profit on top of what is reinvested? Wonderful!
> 
> I think the important thing here is intent. There is a huge difference between the above scenario and somebody who makes the decision to breed dogs for the _sole purpose_ of earning money.


And I think this is the point the PCA contact was trying to make regarding breeding & profit - however, the notion that having a website is automatically indicative of breeding solely for profit does not seem reasonable, and that was the inspiration for this thread. I was just surprised that a PCA contact from the PCA website was telling me to disregard all breeders with a website. 

Anyway -- apologies for starting a fairly controversial thread topic as a new member of the forum! :redface:


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

No apologies necessary. I think most members agree that it would be highly unusual for a breeder not to have a social media presence these days. Does PCA expect us to find great poodles in the local newspaper? A winning breeder has a brand and a whole lotta work, and expense goes into building it, proving it and then trust to share the line with another breeder or lovingly reared puppies with companion households. If any breeder is making a profit, I expect that to be immediately earmarked for a celebrity handler for their "it" puppy. Those guys are making the money and I have very mixed feelings about that.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

pca is an insider's club. you need to be invited to join - meaning nominated by two members. a pf member contacted a local pca a few years ago and asked about a specific akc breeder of merit near the west coast. the answer was, well, she has a kennel, as though that said everything about the breeder, including why pca was not recommending her. this answer illuminates the issues with both pca and akc. being a member of akc does not guarantee much: there are large scale breeders that do not health test dogs who belong to akc and akc welcomes them. yet pca members, who by and large reject large scale breeders, belong to akc and need the imprimatur of the organization to be seen as credible breeders. 

it's good to ask questions and to keep in mind the perspectives involved when you hear answers, then make your own, well-informed decision.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

patk said:


> pca is an insider's club. you need to be invited to join - meaning nominated by two members. a pf member contacted a local pca a few years ago and asked about a specific akc breeder of merit near the west coast. the answer was, well, she has a kennel, as though that said everything about the breeder, including why pca was not recommending her. this answer illuminates the issues with both pca and akc. being a member of akc does not guarantee much: there are large scale breeders that do not health test dogs who belong to akc and akc welcomes them. yet pca members, who by and large reject large scale breeders, belong to akc and need the imprimatur of the organization to be seen as credible breeders.
> 
> it's good to ask questions and to keep in mind the perspectives involved when you hear answers, then make your own, well-informed decision.


Completely agree. Personally, I have never, ever encountered an organized club of any sort in any field, in any country - pets, human babies, remote-controlled airplanes, college admissions consulting, you name it - that doesn't have a huge component of contradiction and hypocrisy once you look deep enough into that club. This is why it is critical for each of us to question everything around us and make informed decisions, since it is virtually impossible to get any kind of truly "objective" advice. 

Kevin


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

As for the topic of breeder "business model", I'm curious why the following model run by my mini poodle Vontae's breeder in Taiwan isn't more widespread. Vontae's breeder, Micky, also runs a dog grooming school and salon, so she makes money on tuition fees from students training with her to become licensed groomers, and she also makes money from customers who bring dogs to her school for bathing and grooming services. These are the main sources of her income, not selling dogs and puppies. 

I bought Vontae from her for around US$2,000, but the price includes free lifetime bathing/grooming - more specifically, one bath per week and one haircut per month. Even if you take the most conservative estimate, for a mini poodle, monthly bathing/grooming cost would run at least $100, which would be $1200 per year, which means $2000 wouldn't even cover two years of grooming/bathing service. So essentially, rather than saying that I bought Vontae for $2000, it's probably more accurate to say that Micky allowed me to adopt Vontae for free but in return, I agreed to pay two years worth of grooming fee for lifetime grooming services. And in return, Micky has someone (me) who promises to take care of Vontae, and Vontae becomes a "model dog" on whom Micky's students can practice and train on a weekly and monthly basis.

I've had Vontae for a year and a half now and I must say, this really has been a win-win scenario. By charging a high price for Vontae but offering free lifetime grooming service, Micky can increase the odds that her buyers have every intention of making a long-term commitment to take care of her dogs, since the buyers can only "make back" the money if they keep sending the dogs back to Micky for grooming. The buyers, in turn, have the assurance that their dogs' breeder is making a firm commitment to be in weekly contact with the buyers, so that she can't and won't just disappear after the purchase. Of course, there is the danger that Micky could go out of business and stop providing grooming services after closing shop, but, considering that she's been breeding poodles for 15+ years and she's currently the top breeder in Taiwan (in terms of conformation), that seems like a pretty small possibility - and, as I mentioned, it would only take two years of grooming for the buyer to make back the $2000 purchase, meaning Micky would only need to stay in business for two years after the dog is purchased for the deal to be worthwhile financially to the buyer.

Since all poodles need professional grooming services, I wonder why more breeders don't run this type of "one-stop-shop" that offers not only the dog, but lifetime services for the dog, and at the same time generate additional revenue streams from grooming services?

Kevin


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## Verve (Oct 31, 2016)

I would focus on the content of the website. Some websites feature the accomplishments of adult dogs, pedigrees, and health test results. Other feature tons of pictures of cutesy puppies, but little information about the adults. Guess which one I prefer?


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

That's a wonderful way for the breeder to keep in touch with the buyers and their pups, Kevin. Also, I miss stinky tofu -- something I never thought I'd say.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Liz said:


> That's a wonderful way for the breeder to keep in touch with the buyers and their pups, Kevin. Also, I miss stinky tofu -- something I never thought I'd say.


Come visit and I promise to take you to the best stinky tofu in town!

Kevin


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## Beautiful Blue (Apr 24, 2017)

Recipe please...I love to cook that type of thing.

Oh....forget it. I see it's quite complicated - what with fermenting the tofu and making a sort of cheese of it just to begin.

Guess we'll all have to save up for a vacation in Taiwan!


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Rocpoodle said:


> And I think this is the point the PCA contact was trying to make regarding breeding & profit - however, the notion that having a website is automatically indicative of breeding solely for profit does not seem reasonable, and that was the inspiration for this thread. I was just surprised that a PCA contact from the PCA website was telling me to disregard all breeders with a website.
> 
> Anyway -- apologies for starting a fairly controversial thread topic as a new member of the forum! :redface:


One other thing to note is that - the PCA contact might simply have poor communication and/or social skills, or be having a bad day in a foul mood. My sister-in-law had a similar experience when she and her husband considered getting a rescue Border Collie and contacted the Border Collie rescue organization in their region. First, she got no response from the organization after writing a long, earnest email to inquire about the breed in general and dog availability specifically. When she finally called them, she said the person who answered the phone was extremely rude and dismissive. In hindsight, the person probably was just trying to manage expectations and urge any potential adoptee to be cautious, given Border's high energy level and extreme intelligence that requires constant training and vigilance. But, the way it came out, the contact person essentially was scolding my sister-in-law (from the perspective of my sister-in-law) and basically assuming the worst of intentions from anyone who came through the door looking for a rescue Border. I don't think that person ever stopped to think: while it's important to make sure that potential adoptees know about the pros and cons of a Border, if I act like everyone who approaches me is "guilty until proven innocent", I'm gonna annoy a lot of potential good Border parents and drive them away.

Social grace and communication skills really are incredibly important.

Kevin


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

This caught my attention this morning and I thought it went well, with this thread !


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## forest (Jul 10, 2017)

Kevin, the entire world of dog breeding is based on the idea of gatekeepers. On one side, you have the gatekeepers, the people who believe it their job to monitor and select those allowed in (people who are believed to be worthy of the dog), and on the other side you have everyone else. 

Someone has done a great job of not only framing the conversation this way, but of maintaining it. 

The interesting part, as with all gatekeeper systems, it only works if the "everyone else" group buys in and allows it. 

And they do. 

And will defend it.

I'm sorry your sister was treated with anything other than dignity and respect. That's unfortunate.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

kchen95 said:


> One other thing to note is that - the PCA contact might simply have poor communication and/or social skills, or be having a bad day in a foul mood. My sister-in-law had a similar experience when she and her husband considered getting a rescue Border Collie and contacted the Border Collie rescue organization in their region. First, she got no response from the organization after writing a long, earnest email to inquire about the breed in general and dog availability specifically. When she finally called them, she said the person who answered the phone was extremely rude and dismissive. In hindsight, the person probably was just trying to manage expectations and urge any potential adoptee to be cautious, given Border's high energy level and extreme intelligence that requires constant training and vigilance. But, the way it came out, the contact person essentially was scolding my sister-in-law (from the perspective of my sister-in-law) and basically assuming the worst of intentions from anyone who came through the door looking for a rescue Border. I don't think that person ever stopped to think: while it's important to make sure that potential adoptees know about the pros and cons of a Border, if I act like everyone who approaches me is "guilty until proven innocent", I'm gonna annoy a lot of potential good Border parents and drive them away.
> 
> _*Social grace and communication skills really are incredibly important*_.
> 
> Kevin


And also in short supply, with many younger people today. I know the elder generation have been saying this for years but, we have raised a generation of young people who believe they are privileged. It can take 20 years or longer for them to work out that they are not so.

Eric


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

forest said:


> Kevin, the entire world of dog breeding is based on the idea of gatekeepers. On one side, you have the gatekeepers, the people who believe it their job to monitor and select those allowed in (people who are believed to be worthy of the dog), and on the other side you have everyone else.
> 
> Someone has done a great job of not only framing the conversation this way, but of maintaining it.
> 
> ...



Yup the gatekeeper system is pretty much in place in every single organization with which I've ever been associated, in any field/any country. That's why I say it's critical to NOT assume that any single organization, no matter how seemingly righteous, or ethical, has objective truths and facts as its bottom line. 

Take any facet of any pet-related debate - let's say traditional kibbles vs. raw/fresh food. For the most popular and "respected" raw/fresh food proponents that we all know, if pieces of evidence ever come out that indicate raw/fresh food is no better than kibbles, do we think these proponents would actually give serious credence to the new evidence that goes against their belief, or would they try to completely dismiss it, irregardless of its objective validity? And same thing on the other side - would the traditional kibble makers and the vets who defend them be willing to change their mind if new credible evidence comes out that scientifically demonstrates the health benefits of raw/fresh food? Highly unlikely - unless the market moves so drastically in favor of raw/fresh food that they have no choice but to start making/selling them.

The point is, organizations and activists are much more interested in defending their turfs than evaluating/updating objective facts and evidence.

Kevin


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Wow that comment is rather insulting! I have a website. I've only bred one litter so far (July 2016) and I'm not planning another litter until 2019. That is, as long as my girls pass all their health testing. I've been showing in AKC for 4 years. My website gives people a bio about me and my breeding program and what I've done to get this far. It also allows me to share our achievements and helps get my name more familiar. I also have links to my pedigrees and health testings, which makes it easier for people to find that information about my dogs. 
I'm a full time college student and can't have a bunch of litters, I literally had to plan my first litter around my summer break and will plan my next one the same way. Raising a litter the right way is expensive and exhausting!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I don't know, Hunny, I think the comment is too stupid to be insulting. There are times when someone's critique is so far off the mark, it's not even worth a response.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Liz said:


> I don't know, Hunny, I think the comment is too stupid to be insulting. There are times when someone's critique is so far off the mark, it's not even worth a response.


and the remark came from a pca member. ?


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Just because you got this person's phone number from the Poodle Club of America does not mean much by itself. I'm sure there are lots of crackpots in every dog club.  

pr


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

Dechi said:


> This caught my attention this morning and I thought it went well, with this thread !


A person can make a lot of money breeding dogs andy why shouldn't they?

pr


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Poodlerunner said:


> A person can make a lot of money breeding dogs andy why shouldn't they?
> 
> pr


There is nothing wrong with making money at doing something you love and something that brings joy to others. In fact, that's the ideal. BUT, the problem with earning money in the breeding "business" is that I don't think that it is possible without cutting a lot of corners. To earn money, you need to have a lot of dogs, breed each one many times, get rid of them when they stop producing, limit the price of dog and puppy food, and you can't spend too much of your time supporting the momma dog and socializing the puppies. That's the way a lot of breeders do it. But that is not the kind of breeder that I would want to support.

Having raised a litter myself (working with an experienced breeder), I see how much time it takes if your momma dog lives with you as a much-loved family member. It takes a huge amount of time. But the time spent really pays off in terms of the quality of the puppy that you produce and the happiness of the momma. It is just that it does not pay off in terms of the bottom line of the "business."


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## PlayfulPup (Aug 8, 2012)

I think we can all agree that breeders make money. As in, for example, they sell 10 puppies for $2000 each and bring in $20,000. X amount of money goes into feeding, grooming, health checks, vet bills, showing, competing in other sports, and improving the quality of their lives (puppy enrichment and the like). Many will have money left over after that, but like in any other business, they need to pay themselves. The hours spent caring for dogs and puppies is nothing compared whatever is left over. I have heard a few breeders who put a ton of their time and energy into their dogs are just hoping that this business of breeding at least pays for its self. 

I'm currently working on impressing upon my husband that a spoo pup is worth $1800, just incase we have to go that route. I keep sharing with him what my favorite breeders are doing with their puppies and how much time it takes to make sure you are following puppy culture, taking them for weekly outings for socializing them, doing neuro stimulation biosensor techniques, doing the 7s, and playing with and guiding them in an incredibly amazing puppy room with all sorts of sensory experiences. He seems in the "yeah, whatever" state until I talk about what I want to do if we brought a puppy home (major long and full list to keep socializing and experiencing new things for the next couple months before tapering off to a more manageable and normal lifestyle of socializing) and he is the one who has to put some of that hard work in, or when I point out how it will be easier to practice not barking at a doorbell when the breeder has already made efforts to expose pup to all sorts of loud noises in the comfort of being surrounded by litter mates and mom. The idea that the breeder spends so much time with her dogs, that she can match up the perfect pup with what we need as a family may have impressed him a bit too. He keeps his feelings about another dog in check a little too well, but I know he has to be impressed. 

I've been listening to dog behavior books in the car with my husband and enjoy pointing out "hey, 'my breeders' do that" when they discuss ways to raise great puppies. That said, please, oh please, let us find an adult dog so I don't have to do the puppy phase! lol


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Spunky
That is my take on it as well, had both, but give me a young adult anytime, much easier to train, or that has been my experience, although, I train them in the same fashion as if they were a puppy


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Rocpoodle said:


> During my search for a breeder I ended up making a call to the referral contact listed on the Poodle Club of America website, and I was told that “all breeders who have a website are a business.” That essentially any breeder with a website is using it for advertisement purposes and breeding too many litters, not taking into account the health of their dogs, and is not a true hobby breeder, etc.


This person that you talked to needs to be reported to both Poodle Breeders of America, and to AKC.

What they are claiming is untrue.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

No actually I don't agree. If a breeder breeds correctly, they will face loss at times. They may have a litter here or there where they come out with a little profit, but that will even out for the litters that come out in the negative. My first litter (and so far my only) cost me 4500 before I even had a confirmed pregnancy. That included the stud fee, the last minute plane ticket to Texas once my bitch was ready to breed, and the several progesterone tests to track when my bitch ovulated and was ready to go. If I had had a miss, that would have been 4500 lost. Then, because I planned on keep two puppies for showing, I needed to have at least 5 puppies in the litter in order to cover the breeding and pregnancy. (If I sold 3) but I would have been in the negative in the end because of all the dog food for a nursing bitch and then all the food once the puppies went on solids, not to mention all the cleaning supplies, litter, bleach and toys that was purchased plus vet exam and first shots, deworming protocol and the extra vet visits for a couple of the puppies during the 9 weeks after puppies were born. I ended up with 8 puppies. With it being my first litter, I went a little overboard and spoiled them super rotten and sent home really nice puppy packages, but I didn't breed to make a profit, I bred because I wanted to produce an improved litter and get a couple puppies from it, so in the end I didn't make any money but I got 2 great show prospects out of it. Also. No one even thinks about the thousands of dollars I spent through the 4 years for showing my bitch in AKC, which includes entries, gas and hotel rooms and the hundreds I put into her health testing. I know a breeder who spent 18000 before he had a successful litter which he only got 4 puppies. His bitch had an infection that the reproductive vet had overlooked which was preventing her to get pregnant. It took 3 breedings before it was discovered. And when she did go into labor, one of the puppies got stuck and he had to rush his bitch in for an emergency Caesarian. There goes another 2500. So when a breeder is ethical and does everything right, it really doesn't work out to all this profit like people think. Yeah of course there are times a breeder hits the jackpot and has a litter of 9-10 all healthy no issues and makes a bit extra. They then use that money and put it straight back into their breeding program, but they are also going to have the litters where there is loss or unexpected expenses so it all evens out in the end.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

hunny518 said:


> No actually I don't agree. If a breeder breeds correctly, they will face loss at times. They may have a litter here or there where they come out with a little profit, but that will even out for the litters that come out in the negative. My first litter (and so far my only) cost me 4500 before I even had a confirmed pregnancy. That included the stud fee, the last minute plane ticket to Texas once my bitch was ready to breed, and the several progesterone tests to track when my bitch ovulated and was ready to go. If I had had a miss, that would have been 4500 lost. Then, because I planned on keep two puppies for showing, I needed to have at least 5 puppies in the litter in order to cover the breeding and pregnancy. (If I sold 3) but I would have been in the negative in the end because of all the dog food for a nursing bitch and then all the food once the puppies went on solids, not to mention all the cleaning supplies, litter, bleach and toys that was purchased plus vet exam and first shots, deworming protocol and the extra vet visits for a couple of the puppies during the 9 weeks after puppies were born. I ended up with 8 puppies. With it being my first litter, I went a little overboard and spoiled them super rotten and sent home really nice puppy packages, but I didn't breed to make a profit, I bred because I wanted to produce an improved litter and get a couple puppies from it, so in the end I didn't make any money but I got 2 great show prospects out of it. Also. No one even thinks about the thousands of dollars I spent through the 4 years for showing my bitch in AKC, which includes entries, gas and hotel rooms and the hundreds I put into her health testing. I know a breeder who spent 18000 before he had a successful litter which he only got 4 puppies. His bitch had an infection that the reproductive vet had overlooked which was preventing her to get pregnant. It took 3 breedings before it was discovered. And when she did go into labor, one of the puppies got stuck and he had to rush his bitch in for an emergency Caesarian. There goes another 2500. So when a breeder is ethical and does everything right, it really doesn't work out to all this profit like people think. Yeah of course there are times a breeder hits the jackpot and has a litter of 9-10 all healthy no issues and makes a bit extra. They then use that money and put it straight back into their breeding program, but they are also going to have the litters where there is loss or unexpected expenses so it all evens out in the end.


AMEN!!! My point exactly. On the outside looking in, it is all roses and sunshine. But it just doesn't work like that.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

If in fact it's true that the best breeders aren't able to make money consistently, and in fact may lose money, I actually think that's a HUGE problem - it's NOT a desired or ideal outcome to be applauded at all. 

If top breeders need to spend all that money and effort to LOSE money, I don't see how this industry/hobby is sustainable, and in fact, such a dire prospect would incentivize breeders to "cheat". In a well-functioning industry, if I can make minimal X effort and make money, then if I'm willing to make X+X+X effort (three times the effort), then I should be able to make even more money, money I rightfully earn because of my greater effort. But, if the reality in dog breeding is that a bigger effort not only doesn't pay more, but actually pays less, and actually doesn't even pay at all, then I'm not sure how the industry will be able to consistently attract people who have the talent, will and commitment to do the very best they can to produce the best possible new generation of dogs. It's one thing ask the top people in any field not to be greedy buttholes who milk others for billions; it's another to say you can only be a top person in a given field if you're willing to lose money and have no reasonable prospect of making any money. The former makes sense; the latter doesn't.

So, I actually don't see the whole idea of "if you're a top breeder, you don't make any money" as a desirable result, if our collective goal is to improve the breed and produce puppies of better health/temperament (the whole mission behind breeding).

Kevin


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

I love how this whole thread has turned into whether or not breeders make a profit. I've been breeding for a long time I count breaking even on a litter a win so if I'm doing something wrong please tell me. Perfect example just happened recently my champion bred female who I spent a ton of money to buy then spent thousands of dollars health testing she came in heat I bred her to my champion imported male this would be both of their first litters and I was excited to see what they would produce. She went through all the pregnancy symptoms morning sickness, picky eater, gained weight, started making milk,etc., I was sure she was pregnant close to her due date took her to get a x-ray which I do for all pregnant females turns out she's not pregnant. A waste of time and money the whole time she went through this false pregnancy I was feeding her high quality dog food and raw food she was getting extra meals through out the day to accommodate possible puppies. Since it was both dogs first litter I didn't know whether it was a fluke or if one of them had fertility problems so when my other female came into heat I bred her to the same male she had 9 puppies great so that means there's nothing wrong with my male now I'm waiting for the first female to come back into heat and I have a different Champion stud I'm going to be breeding her to this time he is older and has sired a number a litters and has produced amazing champions his stud fee is $2000 not including the traveling cost to get my female to him and I plan on keeping at least 2 females from the litter there's never a guarantee on number of puppies how many of those pups will be show/breeding quality. I'm picky categorizing puppies a puppy can look perfect but if the drive isn't there or temperament just isn't quite what I want I label it pet quality and sell it at a discounted price. What's not taken into consideration by a lot of people is there are kennel licenses that have to be paid. Most breeders live in the middle of nowhere not by choice but because in the city regulations are lot more strict on number of pets some even have HOAs that ban dog breeding. Buying a house out in the middle of nowhere is costly most of the time you have to buy land and get utilities installed get the house built then move in and start building up kennels which easily be 20,000-30,000 if you want the really nice indoor/outdoor kennels with A/C and power in the indoor part. Trust everything earned from litters is either repaying us what we've already spent or going back into the dogs whether it's food, vet bills, health testing, showing, toys, blankets and supplies, housing, advertising. I know me personally I don't leave my house from the time the dogs hit 55 days in their pregnancy to when puppies are 6 weeks old the time between that I'm in my home sitting right there with mom and puppies if I must leave I bring mom and/or puppies depending on how long I'm gonna be gone.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

kchen95 said:


> If in fact it's true that the best breeders aren't able to make money consistently, and in fact may lose money, I actually think that's a HUGE problem - it's NOT a desired or ideal outcome to be applauded at all.
> 
> If top breeders need to spend all that money and effort to LOSE money, I don't see how this industry/hobby is sustainable, and in fact, such a dire prospect would incentivize breeders to "cheat".
> Kevin


This is not an "industry" - it's a very expensive hobby! As a general rule, the only people who make money breeding animals are those bred to be eaten! 

I have been involved in breeding/showing/training dogs for nearly 50 years and have known many breeders. Their driving motivation was to breed better dogs, not to make money. Those who want to make money are the puppy mills - they have no concern for the well-being of their dogs or breeding better quality.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have read this thread twice and came to the conclusion, there has to be some reputable breeders who do make money breeding dogs, or there would not be so many that could be staying in it as long as they have. 

A conversations her about the cost of kennels, needed to be a breeder, then I hear if they are not in your house you are not a good breeder. So which is correct?

I agree people have hobbies and do not make any money, but after so long they will get at least a break even. Full Time reputable breeders will have a large financial outlay in the beginning, any business has that and you need the money behind you to carry you. 

Depending on the size dog your breeding, toys, or standards, there is a big difference in the number of pups you will get, how often you breed and the number of adults you do breed. I feel certain that some breeders are making a very good living with all their expenses, while smaller ones are not unless they have more adults to breed rather than breeding one female to often. 

What is the number of adults a reputable breeder should and how often do they breed each dog both in small dogs and in standards?

In the real estate business it take 5 years to make a good living, only 5% that take the test stay in the business over 2 years. The only 20% make a good living (that is why we have so many part-time agents. Retired people go in it to pick up a little extra cash. If you don't make it in 5 years, it is best to get out, unless it is supplementary income for the family, which maybe the case with accepted breeders. Hubby works and your sell 2 or 3 house a year, and make 8 to 20 thousand a year. You need to be able to cover living and business expenses for 5 years if you are serious, as each agent pays all their expenses, normally today company owners do not. It would seem it would be the same for a breeding that has to support themselves without another income, or retirement check coming in.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I think six poodles is probably the max - they need so much contact with people. I have certainly had more, but only temporarily as a result of having a larger than expected litter.

I would not breed a litter until I had a reasonable number of possible puppies reserved. I would limit the number of litters for any bitch to 3 (and only 1 if that first litter resulted in puppies with problems). A bitch should be fully mature before being bred - and that is at about 2 years for a standard, 18 months for a mini or toy. This might be even later if checks for hereditary diseases have not all been completed. How often? There should be at the very least one season between breedings. If the bitch lost a lot of condition the last time she raised puppies, I'd want her to have 2 seasons between breedings.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think the number of dogs depends on the breeder and their situation. There are two humans in my home, which helps us decide what we are comfortable with. If we had kids, we'd likely have more dogs, particularly if the kids expressed an interest in helping with grooming etc.

The number of litters each girl has depends entirely on how much she enjoys being a mother and how she bounces back. We once had a GSP who was the worst Mother I have ever seen. She despised her puppies. Would lay in the room they were in with rivers of milk streaming across the floor, but would not get in with them willingly. She had one litter. My matriarch had five carefully timed litters and was spayed. She tried to mother every litter that came after that was not hers. She'd run to the computer to see if there were puppies barking to see if she could mother them. There are girls made to be mothers and girls who are not. So it is up to them...do they love it? Do they cope well? Do they bounce back great?

How you breed is an individual choice. When I first began, I would never dream of breeding back to back heats. Having seen pyometra in one of my Mom's girls as a kid, then seeing it again in my Whippet, and doing a lot of reading, I now have no issue with back to back breeding. Dogs are not humans. We shed the lining of our uterus during periods. Dogs do not. Their estrus is preparing their uterus for pregnancy and their body thinks they are pregnant after each heat. This can create problems a few weeks after their heat ends if they are not bred.

I am a firm believer in the no litters for a girl until at least two and all health testing is complete school of thought. Otherwise, in my opinion, it is like a young girl giving birth. Allow her to give to herself, to mature, for her growth plates to close before she begins giving to unborn offspring.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

glorybeecosta said:


> I have read this thread twice and came to the conclusion, there has to be some reputable breeders who do make money breeding dogs, or there would not be so many that could be staying in it as long as they have.
> 
> A conversations her about the cost of kennels, needed to be a breeder, then I hear if they are not in your house you are not a good breeder. So which is correct?
> 
> ...


 I don't see a problem raising dogs in a kennel as long as all are taken care of and socialized there's no harm. My dogs love being outside they perfer it they can run make all the noise they want. Right now all my small dogs are strictly indoors because I'm currently expanding my land and flattening some of the hills and I don't want to risk them getting hurt and they are all driving me crazy they're constantly bickering with each other they are howling at all hours of the night I'm going to be so happy once I can let them back outside. My puppies are however raised indoors and around 6 weeks old they start to go outside and explore I then slowly transition them to being in kennels during the day and at night they come inside by 8 weeks they are usually 100% outside. I used to breed a female then skip a heat or two but after reading some interesting articles about the dangers of doing that I now breed back to back and retire early but this all depends on the female if she's back in pre-breeding condition, how she did raising the last litter, how were the puppies, how many survived in the litter, how many puppies did she have. I have a girl I recently retired she was a great breeder she did amazing whelping, she was nurturing, but once puppies teeth came in she no longer wanted to nurse that posed a problem since her puppies would start to get teeth at 1 1/2 weeks old nowhere near ready to be weaned but I could get her to nurse with some gentle encouragement I only retired her because I noticed every litter she had it would be 1 less puppy then the litter before and that's usually a sign that the female is ready to retire. How many breeding dogs I have depends I have had up to 6 breeding females at 1 time I never bred them all at the same time of course but according to my breeding license I can have over 25 dogs I have no limit technically and my kennels are inspected every year so everything is up to regulations and all my dogs are well taken care of and happy which is all that should matter to buyers. I have no problem walking buyers through my kennels or my home everything is open to view.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Your dogs have cabin fever!! Hope you can let them out soon.

Eric.


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## shae (Aug 30, 2017)

Rocpoodle said:


> During my search for a breeder I ended up making a call to the referral contact listed on the Poodle Club of America website, and I was told that “all breeders who have a website are a business.” That essentially any breeder with a website is using it for advertisement purposes and breeding too many litters, not taking into account the health of their dogs, and is not a true hobby breeder, etc. This view struck me as pretty odd (and ironic, I did find the phone number on a website, after all). I am new to poodles, but not new to the world of purebred dogs. I know of multiple breeders with websites whom I consider to be very reputable.
> 
> Now, obviously there are puppy mills and BYBs out there with websites – but to say ANY breeder with a website shouldn’t ever be considered? That left me a bit perplexed.
> 
> Has anybody else encountered this mindset?


I haven't encountered that particular idea, but I do know that there can be significant disagreements among dog folks about using sites like puppyfind to announce litters.

Given that both PCA breeder referral contacts are breeders with web sites, I find it odd that you were told such a thing.


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## PrettyPartis (Sep 5, 2017)

Without getting into the discussion of "if" having a website makes you a business or not, let me say this.

ANYONE who makes any money whatsoever from breeding dogs or any other "money making" venture is required by the IRS to report said income and pay any appropriate taxes. Bottom line if your not then you're breaking the law.

Even if you call yourself a hobby breeder (which is fine in my eyes) you still better be running it like a hobby. Yes you can claim "hobby" income to the IRS, BUT if you claim it as a hobby I don't think you can claim deductions, or if you can it is limited as to what you can claim. 

If you want to claim deductions then you have to claim the income as business income and business related expenses.


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