# Silver Poodles



## PaulinaMiamiBeach (Mar 29, 2019)

Is there a difference between a silver poodle and a grey one or are they both considered the same color? I was also wondering if there is a way to tell what shade of silver you would get (the tint, like beige, platinum, etc) when you look into the sire and dam and their backgrounds. 

Colors seem a little complicated , not to mention the shades of silver as well!


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Yes, color is complicated. What's even more confusing is that different breeds and different countries use words differently. The best web site I know of on the genetics is Dog Coat Colour Genetics

In poodles there are two main ways a dog can end up grey-ish. In both cases the effect is to lighten the coats of black and brown dogs. One is very rare in the breed, but it does exist. That is the dilution gene, which would be the D Locus. There is a commercially available test for this. The other is progressive greying, which doggenetics.co.uk calls the G series. The understanding on progressive greying has been that inheriting it from both parents result in the dog going very light at a young age: silver (in the case of black dogs) or silver beige (in the case of brown dogs.) Inheriting it from only one parent will result in the dog changing later and ending darker: blue (in black dogs) or cafe au lait (in brown dogs.) In 2020 a paper came out explaining a mechanism by which this can work. Pigment Intensity in Dogs is Associated with a Copy Number Variant Upstream of KITLG. There isn't a 100% reliable test for progressive greying, but there is a linkage test which some people use.


----------



## PaulinaMiamiBeach (Mar 29, 2019)

cowpony said:


> Yes, color is complicated. What's even more confusing is that different breeds and different countries use words differently. The best web site I know of on the genetics is Dog Coat Colour Genetics
> 
> In poodles there are two main ways a dog can end up grey-ish. In both cases the effect is to lighten the coats of black and brown dogs. One is very rare in the breed, but it does exist. That is the dilution gene, which would be the D Locus. There is a commercially available test for this. The other is progressive greying, which doggenetics.co.uk calls the G series. The understanding on progressive greying has been that inheriting it from both parents result in the dog going very light at a young age: silver (in the case of black dogs) or silver beige (in the case of brown dogs.) Inheriting it from only one parent will result in the dog changing later and ending darker: blue (in black dogs) or cafe au lait (in brown dogs.) In 2020 a paper came out explaining a mechanism by which this can work. Pigment Intensity in Dogs is Associated with a Copy Number Variant Upstream of KITLG. There isn't a 100% reliable test for progressive greying, but there is a linkage test which some people use.


great information, thank you so much.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

This is a tangent to your question, but it might help you wade through the confusion of non-poodle color sites. In the dog world there are three basic colors: black, brown, and red. Every other color and pattern is a dilution or modification of one of those three basic colors. Blue and silver are lighter versions of black. Cafe au lait and silver beige are lighter versions of brown. Apricot, cream, and white are lighter versions of red. The color patterns- spots, phantom, brindle, and so forth - are modifications of one of these three basic colors.

Poodles have all three basic colors and, officially or not, a host of different pattern modifiers. Some breeds are missing one or more of the three basic colors. Golden Retrievers and Irish Setters only come in shades of red. Irish Water Spaniels only come in brown. Australian Shepherds only come in variants of black or brown...Wut?...Stop right there, Cowpony! The AKC page says Aussies can be black, blue merle, red, or red merle. So clearly Aussies can be red! Well, actually, red Aussies are genetically brown. The Aussie breed club just calls them red. Same deal with red Dobermans. A truly red dog cannot express the merle pattern found in Aussies or the tan point pattern found in Dobermans. So, beware of doing your color research on sites specializing in the genetics of one particular breed. The color terms they are using may not be the color terms poodle folks use, and the genes they are talking about may not be the genes you are talking about.


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Really? _*White*_ is a lighter version of red? Never would have thought.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Really? _*White*_ is a lighter version of red? Never would have thought.


Yep. There is an intensity modifier gene and possibly some other stuff going on, but the dog is genetically on the red spectrum. 
Note, solid white is not the same as highly expressed white spotting. A white poodle or Bichon puppy with pale apricot ears is probably genetically solid colored, and the ears will probably lighten to cream or white to match the rest of the coat as the dog matures. A white beagle puppy with lemon ears is probably genetically spotted, and it is unlikely to turn fully white.


----------



## PowersPup (Aug 28, 2020)

As I recall reading somewhere on PF, poodles on the black spectrum (black, blue and silver) have black points (nose, etc.) while dogs on the red or white spectrum have brown points.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

PowersPup said:


> As I recall reading somewhere on PF, poodles on the black spectrum (black, blue and silver) have black points (nose, etc.) while dogs on the red or white spectrum have brown points.


It's a little more complicated. Dogs on the black spectrum have black noses, while dogs on the brown spectrum have brown noses. A dog on the red spectrum can have either.


----------



## Miki (Dec 25, 2021)

cowpony said:


> It's a little more complicated. Dogs on the black spectrum have black noses, while dogs on the brown spectrum have brown noses. A dog on the red spectrum can have either.


Gotta say this - you are one heck of a great explainer. Thank you! It's a gift/super power that I really admire. 

p.s. So my goofy guy Tyler is genetically red with black points. Now I know!


----------

