# ACE IS HOME - happiness coupled with a little ranting



## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Saturday has finally arrived and my partner and I went to collect our new pup, Ace (5 mths old), he appears to have taken to my partner more so than to me but given that I am home all the time there is hope yet:nod:, as most dogs do form a deep attachment to me. He is gorgeous, he came with limited registration papers which describe him as a "white." I am miffed as he most certainly is NOT a white, he is very much a light cream. I am a little disappointed in that the breeder was not 100% honest with me. I had asked on a couple of occasions over the phone as to whether he was a true white and she said he was definitely a true white; I also asked her as to whether he had the typical black pigmentation that is expected of a white and she said he had "excellent pigmentation." I asked her as to whether he had black toe nails and she said he did. I was surprised to find that this is not the case. He is a cream and the skin on his ear flap is pink, the same applies to his tummy and his claws are cream or white, not black. His paw pads are black. His nose is black. I also asked the breeder as to whether his parents were health checked and she confirmed that they were checked for eye problems, were DNA tested, hip scored and eye tested. This was also stipulated in her ad. I made a point of asking if she had the necessary paperwork and she confirmed that she did and that she would make copies for me. Upon pick-up of the pup, she did not have the papers for the DNA testing, hip scores and eye tests! I mentioned that as agreed on the phone, I was hoping to have copies of such and she responded that nobody ever asks her for such papers and that she would photocopy the originals and post them to me, whether that ever eventuates is anybody's guess but nevertheless an agreement is an agreement and the understanding was that I was to be presented with such papers on the day! 

This is not the first time that my trust has been dashed, I would have still gone ahead with the purchase no matter whether Ace was cream or white but I did expect that I was going to be provided with the truth. A lesson learnt, sorry for the rant. 

Perhaps you can set me straight as to what the pigmentation on a cream should be like.....


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

Well, he most certainly IS cream. True/creams, good, nice creams have pink inside their ears, cream, neutral nails, jet black noses, pads and eye rims. Nothing weird or ugly about that. My puppy froma black mother and silver father had blackish gray pigment by day 3. I actually thought she might be like Shamus from Alegria Poodles, pale platinum. But by a few weeks of age, she had pale cream fuzz on her ears. By the time I sold her at 7 monthys, she was an ice white.


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## Skye (Feb 19, 2010)

Your breeder sounds shady, but your pup is gorgeous! Hope you have many happy years together!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't know why you're whining. You DO know almost all poodles fade as they grow older? My guess is he's going to lighten up so much as he grows that most people (and even you) won't be able to tell he's 'cream.' I'll say that 90% of the time.. his ear flaps and bells ARENT going to be black. The inside of my BLACK dog's ears aren't even black, they're white.

I CAN understand the paperwork on testings, but not the color.

Just enjoy your dog, I don't see why the color matters so much.

And a little imput, my Vienna was born apricot, tell me what you think her color is now... (ps, she's really, actually cream)


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## shellbeme (Oct 28, 2010)

He is a cutie pie  I understand why you're annoyed, you want the people you are purchasing from to know about what they are doing. You also want the papers that you asked for after being told you'd have them. After having purchased a parrot with pbfd, I completely understand wanting a breeder who is up front, knowledgeable and complete in the information they provide you.


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

Don't worry about the color. Like Fluffyspoos said, almost ALL poodles fade out a lot from the time they are little. My dog was a nice dark apricot when I got him, but he's a very light cream color now. Not quite white, but people think he is and he has lightened up an insane amount since 11 weeks. He does seem to have wonderful pigmentation; at least in my opinion. Mine's pigmentation is strange by my standards, but I think he looks cute. Dark brown nose, eye rims, lips, toe nails and paw pads. There is not a spot of black on my dog! lol it's a little weird, and incorrect by standards but it works. The inside of the ears are usually pink, though... I've never seen a dog without pink on the inside of the ears, especially not a white/cream poodle. 

Your new boy is beautiful! Good luck, I hope you guys have a wonderful life together. He is certainly not a true white, but he will likely lighten up to a very nice, white color in time. Don't fret about it.  He will be stunning, especially with that gorgeous face!  

Here, I've attached a photo of my boy at 12 weeks and a recent photo (at 16 months old). You can see how much he's really lightened up.


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## Skye (Feb 19, 2010)

Yes, it's true. Another poodle on here, Beau, looks white in his pictures. But, the owner says he looked just like mine when they got him! (Cream with apricot ears.) Mine is only about 8 months old, so I am curious to see all of the changes he goes through. Color and texture!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

My question is...... why would you pay and take possession of the dog when the breeder wouldn't show you evidence of testing. Why didn't you just leave?

BTW.... that dog has pretty dark toe nails.


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

He is very nice looking. I hope things work out with your breeder and she comes through with the paperwork. Good things to know. 

Phoenix is true white and has clear-ish nails but has a black nose, lips, pads and eye rims. He also has a wonderful dark silver skin when shaved. Whites and creams start with pink skin but with exposure to the sun they get a black/ grey skin. That's why he has pink ear flaps. No sun there. You will be able to tell his skin better when you shave his face etc and it gets sun. When I shaved Phoenix out of his conti he had pink circles on his hips and bracelets. Those places hadn't gotten sun and looked really goofy when he was wet.

Sookie as a cream has all the black points and darker skin where exposed but has black stripes down her nails. It is common practice for many breeders to register light creams as white as they will lighten into a white later in life. Even though genetically they are cream. Ace at 2 will most likely look really white. Congrats and keep the pics coming!!


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I don't know why you're whining. You DO know almost all poodles fade as they grow older? My guess is he's going to lighten up so much as he grows that most people (and even you) won't be able to tell he's 'cream.' I'll say that 90% of the time.. his ear flaps and bells ARENT going to be black. The inside of my BLACK dog's ears aren't even black, they're white.
> 
> I CAN understand the paperwork on testings, but not the color.
> 
> ...




Beautiful dog, by the way! Could easily pass as white on the photo you posted. As I said on my initial post, I honestly did not care whether he was a white or a cream but given the fact that I did ask the breeder such questions and was not told the truth is what I am annoyed about! I asked her if he was a white or a cream and I emphasised to her that it would not make any difference as I still wanted to go ahead with the purchase. She was adamant that he was a white which he obviously is not. I don't think I am asking alot in expecting someone to be honest??? 

Yes, I was aware that poodles have the fading gene, that doesn't change the fact that when put together the difference between a white and a cream poodle becomes blatantly obvious; I like both by the way....but if I ask a specific question.....I expect a true answer! I love him and I will enjoy every moment with him; I can only hope that the paperwork does show itself to me as I am rather doubtful atm. :act-up:


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

cbrand said:


> My question is...... why would you pay and take possession of the dog when the breeder wouldn't show you evidence of testing. Why didn't you just leave?
> 
> BTW.... that dog has pretty dark toe nails.


I knew that someone would pose this question sooner or later, lol. The fact is that as soon as the breeder opened the door to let us in, Ace was there to greet us and his temperament shone through.....what can I say, love at first sight? He is well bred, I do have his pedigree papers which show that there are quite a few championships esp from the sire's side of things. I just could not bring myself to leave without him....


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Birdie said:


> Don't worry about the color. Like Fluffyspoos said, almost ALL poodles fade out a lot from the time they are little. My dog was a nice dark apricot when I got him, but he's a very light cream color now. Not quite white, but people think he is and he has lightened up an insane amount since 11 weeks. He does seem to have wonderful pigmentation; at least in my opinion. Mine's pigmentation is strange by my standards, but I think he looks cute. Dark brown nose, eye rims, lips, toe nails and paw pads. There is not a spot of black on my dog! lol it's a little weird, and incorrect by standards but it works. The inside of the ears are usually pink, though... I've never seen a dog without pink on the inside of the ears, especially not a white/cream poodle.
> 
> Your new boy is beautiful! Good luck, I hope you guys have a wonderful life together. He is certainly not a true white, but he will likely lighten up to a very nice, white color in time. Don't fret about it.  He will be stunning, especially with that gorgeous face!
> 
> Here, I've attached a photo of my boy at 12 weeks and a recent photo (at 16 months old). You can see how much he's really lightened up.



Thanks for your kind words  Nah, I am not fretting about his colouring, as I said before, I would have gone ahead with him even if the breeder had told me over the phone that he was a cream, just wanted some honesty, that is all. Ace is on the bed atm as I am typing away, he is a true gentleman, I am so in love with him, lol. Your girl is a stunner btw, I cannot believe how much she has changed in a few short weeks, unbelievable!:act-up:


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

vtomblin said:


> He is very nice looking. I hope things work out with your breeder and she comes through with the paperwork. Good things to know.
> 
> Phoenix is true white and has clear-ish nails but has a black nose, lips, pads and eye rims. He also has a wonderful dark silver skin when shaved. Whites and creams start with pink skin but with exposure to the sun they get a black/ grey skin. That's why he has pink ear flaps. No sun there. You will be able to tell his skin better when you shave his face etc and it gets sun. When I shaved Phoenix out of his conti he had pink circles on his hips and bracelets. Those places hadn't gotten sun and looked really goofy when he was wet.
> 
> Sookie as a cream has all the black points and darker skin where exposed but has black stripes down her nails. It is common practice for many breeders to register light creams as white as they will lighten into a white later in life. Even though genetically they are cream. Ace at 2 will most likely look really white. Congrats and keep the pics coming!!


Thanks for that info. I had read on the internet that white poodles were supposed to have black nails and black skin and that if they had pink skin it was a sign of poor breeding.....if I had not come across that piece of info I would not have commented. I thought Ace's nails were pink but on closer inspection this morning they look like they are a dark brown, I know they appear black in photos but that is not the case. I am not fussed about that though, he is beautiful and I am tickled pink in having him, lol.


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## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

He is beautiful regardless of what colour he is! He is lucky to have a wonderful person like you to share his life with. What a Christmas blessing!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_He is a lovely boy! I noticed that his nails were dark in the pics as soon as I opened them. 

Doesn't sound like an ethical breeder to me and I wouldn't hold my breath for those papers. 

My apricot's skin is pink but everywhere that she is shaved, it has darkened and looks really nice. 

Since you are not breeding and he is of good temperament, I would just move on at this point. _


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Skye mentioned our mini Beau earlier.

Beau has "whitened" up a lot in the year we've had him. The first picture below was taken on the day we got him (he was 6 mos), and the second a few months later. The camera didn't do a very good job of capturing the apricot tint on his ears, and you can't see the wide "skunk stripe" down the middle of his back. His legs also had a lot of highlights. The last picture was taken a few weeks ago. He might technically be a "cream," but I think anyone looking at him would say say he's pure white. He has all the same characteristics as your boy, including pink ear flaps. I had no idea they came any other way! And those clearish toenails have to be easier to trim than pure black ones.

Call him cream, white, or chartreuse, for that matter. We love him all the same.


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## penny_ann (May 29, 2010)

Ace is lovely! Congrats!


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

schpeckie said:


> He is beautiful regardless of what colour he is! He is lucky to have a wonderful person like you to share his life with. What a Christmas blessing!



Oh thank you schpeckie, that is sooo nice of you to say that. I guess I am equally blessed to have such a charmer by my side.:act-up:


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## fracturedcircle (Aug 19, 2010)

I can't wait to hear more about Ace and your life with him!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ace said:


> I knew that someone would pose this question sooner or later, lol. The fact is that as soon as the breeder opened the door to let us in, Ace was there to greet us and his temperament shone through.....what can I say, love at first sight? He is well bred, I do have his pedigree papers which show that there are quite a few championships esp from the sire's side of things. I just could not bring myself to leave without him....


And this is where bad breeders get buyers every time. People see those cute puppy faces and they can't say no. Bad breeders bank money on this. In the end, the buyers are the ones who have the power to change breeding practices. Until buyers demand better by voting with their dollars, bad breeders will continue to breed young, untested dogs and continue to give misleading and sometimes flat out wrong information (Cream vs. White).

BTW.... it is common practice among the breeders I know to send their puppy buyers home with a packet that includes pedigrees, pictures, testing results on parents, and puppy shot/worming record. Personally I also include information about common Poodle health issues such as Addisons, SA, and Bloat.

What did your breeder send you home with?


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## partial2poodles (Feb 11, 2010)

This is Maddison's dark skin at birth and when she was 7 mos old


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

cbrand said:


> And this is where bad breeders get buyers every time. People see those cute puppy faces and they can't say no. Bad breeders bank money on this. In the end, the buyers are the ones who have the power to change breeding practices. Until buyers demand better by voting with their dollars, bad breeders will continue to breed young, untested dogs and continue to give misleading and sometimes flat out wrong information (Cream vs. White).
> 
> BTW.... it is common practice among the breeders I know to send their puppy buyers home with a packet that includes pedigrees, pictures, testing results on parents, and puppy shot/worming record. Personally I also include information about common Poodle health issues such as Addisons, SA, and Bloat.
> 
> What did your breeder send you home with?



The breeder sent me home with his pedigree papers (registration papers), vaccination certificate and a few pages on how to rear him, basically advising me what she has been feeding him, how often to worm him, lol, etc etc. I won't be feeding him a commercial pet food diet, he will be fed a RAW diet as that has worked best for other dogs that I have owned. I will be ringing her this evening to remind her to send me photocopies of the hip scores, eye tests, etc etc. I could not believe what she said after I asked her for those copies, assuming that she had them with her! Telling me that nobody but nobody ever asks for such papers....


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## Locket (Jun 21, 2009)

Ace is very handsome. Congrats on the new addition.


That said, I am very much in agreement with this


cbrand said:


> And this is where bad breeders get buyers every time. People see those cute puppy faces and they can't say no. Bad breeders bank money on this. In the end, the buyers are the ones who have the power to change breeding practices. Until buyers demand better by voting with their dollars, bad breeders will continue to breed young, untested dogs and continue to give misleading and sometimes flat out wrong information (Cream vs. White).


I can't say I would be able to resist such a sweet face, but if it bothered me so much that the breeder was flat out lying to me (and it is obvious that this very much bothered you), I would not have gone through with it. Pedigree means nothing without health certificates.

I wish you the very best for you and Ace, but do realize it is very risky to buy a dog with no background health information.


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> Skye mentioned our mini Beau earlier.
> 
> Beau has "whitened" up a lot in the year we've had him. The first picture below was taken on the day we got him (he was 6 mos), and the second a few months later. The camera didn't do a very good job of capturing the apricot tint on his ears, and you can't see the wide "skunk stripe" down the middle of his back. His legs also had a lot of highlights. The last picture was taken a few weeks ago. He might technically be a "cream," but I think anyone looking at him would say say he's pure white. He has all the same characteristics as your boy, including pink ear flaps. I had no idea they came any other way! And those clearish toenails have to be easier to trim than pure black ones.
> 
> Call him cream, white, or chartreuse, for that matter. We love him all the same.



Beau takes my breath away....he is so beautiful. You are right, whatever my boy may be, cream...white or brindle, I adore him! Having said that, next time around though I will be more of a doubting thomas and believe only what I see with my very own eyes, lol.


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Thanks everyone for making me feel so welcome and for your comments. I am loving this forum already. 

Lillie


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

partial2poodles said:


> This is Maddison's dark skin at birth and when she was 7 mos old



Maddison's dark skin does show on the photo but it's hard to see what colour his skin is from the second photo ??? Love to see another shot of him. I bet he is adorable.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Sorry, I didn't mean for my post to come out so.. brash at first. Ha, I'm really not a jerk lol. But I really think he's going to be VERY light when he's older.


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

No problem Fluffyspoos, lol. I didn't think you were a jerk for one second, lol.


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

cbrand said:


> And this is where bad breeders get buyers every time. People see those cute puppy faces and they can't say no.


Thats why I pressure people to come visit before the pups are born. 
I hate to see my pups go to homes just because the people could not say no too the cute puppy.

Ace looks beautiful. Who are his parents ?


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Winnow said:


> Thats why I pressure people to come visit before the pups are born.
> I hate to see my pups go to homes just because the people could not say no too the cute puppy.
> 
> Ace looks beautiful. Who are his parents ?


Winnow, how can people make a decision without seeing what the actual pup looks like? I can understand that when people are out to purchase a purebred pup they have a good indication of what the pup will look like but even amongst littermates there is a difference between one pup and the other. Have you ever found that people place a deposit on an unborn pup only to be a little disappointed as to the way it looks as it matures and upon pick-up?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Ace said:


> Winnow, how can people make a decision without seeing what the actual pup looks like? I can understand that when people are out to purchase a purebred pup they have a good indication of what the pup will look like but even amongst littermates there is a difference between one pup and the other. Have you ever found that people place a deposit on an unborn pup only to be a little disappointed as to the way it looks as it matures and upon pick-up?


I know this question was directed at Winnow, but I thought my experience was similar, too.

I didn't choose a puppy, I chose a breeder. The particular puppy I got from her didn't matter as much as the fact that the puppy was from this particular breeder, it was her expertise and her lines of dogs that I was interested in. She has 30 years experience in the breed. She breeds show dogs, but of course not all puppies in a litter will be show dogs, some will be pets. She had two puppies at the time I found her, both black, both male. She asked me about what I intended to do with the dog and asked me questions about they type of temperament I preferred in a dog. I live about an 8-hour drive away, so popping over to meet the puppies wasn't realistic. But she knew the pups well and had enough experience to evaluate them. She asked me great questions and she had such wonderful references that I trusted her to pick my puppy for me. She was able to select my puppy for me and the first time I saw him was when I picked him up at the airport (the breeder flew down with him under the seat in front of her). 

It was really love at first sight. My husband and I are over-the-moon thrilled with him. He is 1 year old now and my heart dog, my dream poodle. I would go back to my breeder for another puppy in a heartbeat and tell others about her all the time. When you find the right breeder, the right pup follows.

That said, your little Ace is just gorgeous and I know you are going to love him to pieces.


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> I know this question was directed at Winnow, but I thought my experience was similar, too.
> 
> I didn't choose a puppy, I chose a breeder. The particular puppy I got from her didn't matter as much as the fact that the puppy was from this particular breeder, it was her expertise and her lines of dogs that I was interested in.


As happens fairly often, PA expressed my thoughts better than I could. I found a breeder I trusted, we had lots of conversations about what I was looking for in a puppy, and she selected the puppy for me. When I got up there to pick him up, she told me I could have one of the other puppies if I wanted, but I didn't even look at him--I trusted her judgment. She also made it absolutely clear that if I had any reservations, I was free to walk away (there was no deposit).


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## Winnow (Jan 2, 2010)

Ace said:


> Winnow, how can people make a decision without seeing what the actual pup looks like? I can understand that when people are out to purchase a purebred pup they have a good indication of what the pup will look like but even amongst littermates there is a difference between one pup and the other. Have you ever found that people place a deposit on an unborn pup only to be a little disappointed as to the way it looks as it matures and upon pick-up?


I think that if people don't like the parents then they will not like the puppy. 
I don't take deposits unless the dog is leaving the country. 

Of course the people will meet the pups many times before they go to there new homes but they had met the parents before and I told them all the ups and downs of them. 
My puppy buyers don't get to pick there pup I pick them for them after I done the mental test. 

So the time to back out would be right after meeting the parents, no puppies then to distract you.


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

Winnow said:


> I think that if people don't like the parents then they will not like the puppy.
> I don't take deposits unless the dog is leaving the country.
> 
> Of course the people will meet the pups many times before they go to there new homes but they had met the parents before and I told them all the ups and downs of them.
> ...


You sound like an incredibly conscientious breeder; I must say that I haven't met too many breeders that take note of each pup's temperament in order to ensure that they go to the right home! I was a registered breeder of cavaliers a few years ago hence I was mixing with other supposedly "ethical" breeders and I must say that I had only met ONE other breeder, aside from myself, that made a point of getting to know each pup's individual temperament, most breeders were only too happy to tell the purchaser what they wanted to hear, take the money.....and never to be heard of again. I recall a discussion once, to a fellow breeder, about the fact that I always, as a rule, posed a multitude of questions to people who wanted to purchase a pup as I wanted to be sure that they could and would provide a responsible and loving home, her response was "well, that will wear off, you will eventually think of the dollars and there will come a time when you will be counting the seconds to rid yourself of a litter of puppies." 

The fact remains that although I am not breeding atm, I could never be the type of breeder that regards puppies as a hindrance and solely as a means to make money. I would like to point out that Ace will NOT be used as a stud, he is 5 mths atm and will be desexed when he reaches the age of 12 mths. He is to be my heart dog along with my cavalier and they are part of the furniture and always will be.


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## Ace (Dec 15, 2010)

I would like to add that upon my researching and trying to find a breeder of standard poodles, I spoke to a fair few; only ONE breeder made a point of asking me if I had adequate fencing, if I had other dogs, did I own livestock including horses, I do happen to own horses and told her so, she then asked if the dog was able to get to the horses as she was concerned that there was a real risk of the dog being kicked by a horse; she asked me what diet I had in mind for a puppy, where it would be sleeping at night, what I did for a living and how much time I had for a dog, would it be allowed inside on a cold winter's night, etc etc. This is the ONLY breeder that was genuinely concerned in ensuring that the puppies end up in a good home. She was music to my ears but did not have any available puppies; all the puppies had deposits on them; she did have a bitch that was due to whelp in another 4 weeks.

Having said all this, I must emphasise that I am very happy with Ace, he is quite the clown, he prances around like a prima donna, lol....he is so unique and I am sure we will have lots of happy years together.


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