# Pregnancy dilemma



## Engel

Bella has her rescan on the 12th but I'm not sure she'll make it to the scan date. She's bellied up really quickly and struggles to get comfy. I'm pretty sure I can see and feel something moving too. She's still eating A LOT but tires very easily compared to a couple of weeks ago. Still very happy in herself. Her nipples do protrude and rosy and there is a runny-ish semi- clear fluid coming from them. Though that being said, the mammary glands aren't overly swollen. I keep looking online and her nipples look small compared to them. 

Do you think it's worth me moving the rescan date forward so she's seen sooner or should I wait?

She's potentially somewhere between 6-7 weeks at the moment.


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## patk

what does your vet think? nothing wrong with getting opinions here from those with experience, but no harm in finding out what your vet thinks, either?


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## Engel

patk said:


> what does your vet think? nothing wrong with getting opinions here from those with experience, but no harm in finding out what your vet thinks, either?


It's kinda a surprise for them because initially vet 1 said that there is no way she could be pregnant because of the state she was in, and that she would not spay her until May and there was no changing her mind. About 3 weeks ago we saw vet 2 and she scanned her and couldn't say for certain that she was pregnant or not. Then 2 weeks ago Vet 3 saw her and he said he's 100% sure she wasn't pregnant. Her next scan date is the 12th, I'm not sure whether to wait or bring the appointment forward or not


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## patk

wow. now i'm wondering, do dogs have false pregnancies? so does vet 3 think she can be spayed now?


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## zooeysmom

Yes, dogs can have false pregnancies. One of our goldens did. She looked and acted exactly like a pregnant bitch. But thank heavens it was only a false alarm! She would have been a horrible breeding specimen and mother (she had a few screws loose).


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## fjm

False pregnancy is very common in dogs, but Bella's would seem a fairly extreme example. I would have a vet see her, and make a decision on whether to scan. Do you know anyone experienced with whelping dogs who can help you if she is pregnant? It is not always a straightforward process, and tends to happen at the worst possible moment for contacting the vet. Did she come from a rescue? Can they help?


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## Engel

patk said:


> wow. now i'm wondering, do dogs have false pregnancies? so does vet 3 think she can be spayed now?


Yes they can! My Lhasa apso had one in the end of last year, then had another heat (silent) and then when she got spayed beginning of January, we found she was 2-3 weeks pregnant. (We went through with the spay btw).  

Vet 3 didn't stay around long enough for us to find out :/ He kinda came in, palpated her a bit. Said, "There's no way she's pregnant" and then walked out the room.


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## Engel

fjm said:


> False pregnancy is very common in dogs, but Bella's would seem a fairly extreme example. I would have a vet see her, and make a decision on whether to scan. Do you know anyone experienced with whelping dogs who can help you if she is pregnant? It is not always a straightforward process, and tends to happen at the worst possible moment for contacting the vet. Did she come from a rescue? Can they help?


The vet saw her a few weeks ago and did a scan, but said we were too early to see anything. The practice I go to prefers to scan them around 42 days. The next appointment is on the 12th when that vet comes back from a break. I'm not experienced with whelping, however my mum used to help out with the birthing of sheep and pigs. 

She didn't come from a rescue. What happened is that the original owner died suddenly and the daughter had 10+ dogs and couldn't cope so we rehomed her from there. And no they can't


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## MollyMuiMa

Well if she was living with 10 other dogs in the house she most likely is pregnant and at 42-49 days gestation she probably has less than 2 weeks to go! She may even be farther along than you think! I think the scan will be telling! I would really be watching her closely as you do not know the size of the dog she bred with, and she may run into difficulty and need a C-section! Poor little girl needs lots of love and attention right now! Bless you for rescuing her!!!!


P.S. I would try to get her scanning date sooner if you think she is leaking colostrum! Milk comes in about a week(some times less than) before whelping


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## Engel

MollyMuiMa said:


> Well if she was living with 10 other dogs in the house she most likely is pregnant and at 42-49 days gestation she probably has less than 2 weeks to go! She may even be farther along than you think! I think the scan will be telling! I would really be watching her closely as you do not know the size of the dog she bred with, and she may run into difficulty and need a C-section! Poor little girl needs lots of love and attention right now! Bless you for rescuing her!!!!
> 
> 
> P.S. I would try to get her scanning date sooner if you think she is leaking colostrum!


All of the dogs there were toy breeds only 1 large being Rottweiler but that was a girl. I was thinking about getting her rescanned sooner but the vet i'd prefer to have is off until Thursday/Friday and the others...well I could call them many things. 

Also I don't really know what colostrum looks like. The liquid coming from her is an off white colour with a slight yellow tint.


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## MollyMuiMa

Pregnant dogs will start lactating up to 2 weeks before whelping so what you are seeing is milk...........but even dogs in false pregnancy can lactate so I found this.....maybe it will be helpful? The last part of this article might tell you......


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## Engel

MollyMuiMa said:


> Pregnant dogs will start lactating up to 2 weeks before whelping so what you are seeing is milk...........but even dogs in false pregnancy can lactate so I found this.....maybe it will be helpful? The last part of this article might tell you......


Thanks MollyMuiMa. I'm aware of false pregnancies and how they can mimic an actual pregnancy. My apso had one at the end of last year, but this with Bella seems different and I am aware that each dog can show things differently. For the past couple of days I have felt something moving within her abdomen and you can see things moving as well. So while we may hope it be a false one, there's something alive there. 

Also, I always thought that milk production started a week to a couple of days before whelping, so you've put my mind at rest slightly as we may have up to 2 weeks I was panicking if you couldn't tell


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## patk

sounds like time for you and vita to compare notes. two pf bellas. could be interesting times.


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## Vita

PatK, I saw Engel's first, other 4/02/19 thread here asking for advice and gave her a few links to start with.

Then on this 4/05 thread, she posted she'd seen three different vets, and none could confirm it, and the last one seen two weeks ago (now closer to three weeks ago) said he's "100% sure" she isn't pregnant. 

Engel, I look forward to hearing the conclusion from your upcoming 4/12 appointment and sonogram.


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## Engel

Vita said:


> PatK, I saw Engel's first, other 4/02/19 thread here asking for advice and gave her a few links to start with.
> 
> Then on this 4/05 thread, she posted she'd seen three different vets, and none could confirm it, and the last one seen two weeks ago (now closer to three weeks ago) said he's "100% sure" she isn't pregnant.
> 
> Engel, I look forward to hearing the conclusion from your upcoming 4/12 appointment and sonogram.


Slight update...

I went to the vets today over Pebbles, my apso and saw vet 3. Anyways, we got talking about Bella and he kept saying he didn't think she was pregnant. We explained that she's now bellied up and eating like a horse but in small meals throughout the day rather than 2 meals which we used to do. He now thinks she's pregnant and from what we described he said he thinks she's 6 weeks.


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## Engel

patk said:


> sounds like time for you and vita to compare notes. two pf bellas. could be interesting times.


Indeed :laugh:


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## Vita

Engel, this must be very anxiety-provoking for you and I haven't wanted to fuel your uncertainty from your vets. Googling is great, but learning about all the things that could go wrong in any kind of pregnancy, whether it's a dog or a woman, can add to those worries. Still, it helps.

For now I'll just say that when you return to have your Bella examined this Friday (?), if she's far enough along the vet should be able to palpitate/feel puppies and possibly hear heartbeats. There is this lab test to confirm pregnancy vs. pseudo-pregnancy.

He may also recommend a sonogram (good) or an xray (nuh-uh, w/o a darn good reason). 

I saw a second vet for the first time today who is also a surgeon, and only did this to cover my bases if my girl needs an emergency c-section in the next few days, i.e. if she does, they know her. 

Like my regular vet, this one does not do x-rays unless there's a really, really good reason due to the possibility of radiation negatively affecting the fetuses in ways that can't be seen for many years.


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## Engel

Vita said:


> Engel, this must be very anxiety-provoking for you and I haven't wanted to fuel your uncertainty from your vets. Googling is great, but learning about all the things that could go wrong in any kind of pregnancy, whether it's a dog or a woman, can add to those worries. Still, it helps.
> 
> For now I'll just say that when you return to have your Bella examined this Friday (?), if she's far enough along the vet should be able to palpitate/feel puppies and possibly hear heartbeats. There is this lab test to confirm pregnancy vs. pseudo-pregnancy.
> 
> He may also recommend a sonogram (good) or an xray (nuh-uh, w/o a darn good reason).
> 
> I saw a second vet for the first time today who is also a surgeon, and only did this to cover my bases if my girl needs an emergency c-section in the next few days, i.e. if she does, they know her.
> 
> Like my regular vet, this one does not do x-rays unless there's a really, really good reason due to the possibility of radiation negatively affecting the fetuses in ways that can't be seen for many years.


don't worry Vita you haven't fueled it! If anything you've helped me. It's just the wait. I just want to be able to get things ready for her to whelp if she is. They probably won't x-ray at my vets either unless necessary. The vet I normally see, and the one I'm seeing tomorrow, is a surgeon also.


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## Skylar

I don't know anything about pregnancy in dogs, but I do think that's a puppy moving causing the movement around the nipple in addition to the normal movement due to breathing.

You are a wonderful person to have taken in Bella and I hope everything goes okay with her. It's a good thing you are seeing the vet tomorrow. Is this vet set up to deal with emergencies or C-sections if needed? Or will they provide you with resources in your community for those services?


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## MollyMuiMa

Could be!!!!! LOL!!!


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## Engel

Potential puppy movement? (Re-upload) https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKoqeibxTm6TtFHBA


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## Mufar42

Well I don't know to me it looks like normal breathing but I haven't had a pregnant dog in a long time. Did she go for a scan today?


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## Engel

Mufar42 said:


> Well I don't know to me it looks like normal breathing but I haven't had a pregnant dog in a long time. Did she go for a scan today?


I thought that 2 days ago but specific movements have become more pronounced and there's no pattern to it like with breathing. She definitely didn't have movement like that 2 weeks ago! 

Also the scan is tomorrow afternoon and I will post an update on what was said/seen. I was just getting opinions from you guys as I'm interested. ?


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## Mufar42

Yes she very well could be and its hard to tell from the video. I mixed my days up I'm not usually back on computer in evening but was checking on Bella and Vita, somehow I thought it was already Friday. LOL senior moment... I think because you said she came from a household with so many dogs it is likely. Looking forward to hear results tomorrow.


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## Engel

Mufar42 said:


> Yes she very well could be and its hard to tell from the video. I mixed my days up I'm not usually back on computer in evening but was checking on Bella and Vita, somehow I thought it was already Friday. LOL senior moment... I think because you said she came from a household with so many dogs it is likely. Looking forward to hear results tomorrow.


Lol I've been willing Friday as I'm getting impatient now! Will keep you updated


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## Engel

This is Bella now. She's huge in comparison to 2 weeks ago!


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## chinchillafuzzy

I would most definitely consult your vet about getting an x ray a few days before the due date. It could be lifesaving if there is a large puppy in position to come out first, especially if that puppy is breech or has a very large head. And since you have no idea who the sire is, the puppies could be larger than expected. An x ray can also give an accurate count of puppies so that you can insure that all of the puppies are born and that one isn’t retained (which can lead to sepsis and death in the mother pretty quickly.) I know some people don’t agree with x rays for a pregnant bitch, and I used to question them as well. I am very wary of radiation as my son has had probably 50+ x rays in his short life of 6 years (due to congenital defects.) However, knowing what I know now, with a lot of breeder friends, I would take the minuscule radiation (my vet office has a very modern very low dose radiation machine), over the alternative. I know a breeder who had a sonogram done and there were many puppies, then (thankfully) got an x ray done and saw that most of the puppies had been reabsorbed and there was one very large Singleton puppy remaining. The vet could see by the size of the skull that it would not be able to fit through the birth canal and so they were able to do a c section and both mom and baby survived. I would consult with your vet and weigh the risks vs positives to having one done, especially in this uncertain situation.


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## Vita

Engel, despite just losing a litter of two puppies, I still have mixed feelings about fetal puppy exposure to radiation. Neither of the two vets I saw wanted to do these either. In my case, it was tragedy, but in most cases, not doing an xray prevents _future_ tragedies.

_* When there's a problem, an xray is absolutely your very best friend. In the overwhelming majority of dog births, however, there are none and you've set up the puppies to develop cancer later in life and the mother to have non-cancer breast tumors.*_




> Mortality in Beagles Irradiated during Prenatal and Postnatal Development. II. Contribution of Benign and Malignant Neoplasia
> from Radiation Research, Journal of Radiation Research Society
> 
> To evaluate the lifetime carcinogenic hazards of exposure to ionizing radiation during development, 1,680 beagles received whole-body exposures to60 Co γ rays or sham exposures. Eight groups of 120 dogs each received mean doses of 15.6-17.5 or 80.8-88.3 cGy in early, mid- or late gestation, at 8, 28 or 55 days postcoitus or at 2 days after birth. Another group of 120 dogs received a mean dose of 82.6 cGy as 70-day-old juveniles and one group of 240 dogs received a mean dose of 81.2 cGy as 365-day-old young adults. Sham irradiations were given to 360 controls. Sexes were equally represented.
> 
> In 1,343 dogs allowed to live out their life span, neoplasia was a major disease, contributing to mortality in 40% of the dogs. There was a significant increase in benign and malignant neoplasms occurring in young dogs (<4 years old), including fatal malignancies, after irradiation in the perinatal (late fetal and neonatal) periods.
> 
> The lifetime incidence of fatal neoplasms was also increased in dogs irradiated perinatally. Three malignancies-lymphomas, hemangiosarcomas and mammary carcinomas-accounted for 51% of all fatal tumors. There was an apparent lifetime increase and earlier onset of lymphomas in dogs exposed as fetuses. Fatal hemangiosarcomas were increased in dogs irradiated early and late in gestation.
> 
> Fatal mammary carcinomas were not increased by irradiation, although non-fatal carcinomas were increased after perinatal exposure. Myeloproliferative disorders and central nervous system astrocytomas appeared to be increased in perinatally irradiated dogs. These data suggest that irradiation in both the fetal and neonatal periods is associated with increased early onset and lifetime cancer risk.


But first you have to confirm whether or not your dog is pregnant. This can confirmed with simple lab test (Relaxin) from the link I gave you in this thread. I hope you've written down the name of it to give your vet tomorrow. 

You also don't know the size of male if she is pregnant and let the vet know this; if he was larger, your dog could be at increased risk for the problems Chinchillafuzzy described. This is something else your vet can factor in as he makes his decision. 

In my case, the stud was smaller, so the breeding was a safe bet the pups would be small. The first one was born breech and was large, causing problems, setting up problems for the second one that was born head first, came quickly and was a nice small size. It didn't help that this litter of two was arrived a few days early. Hopefully you will be luckier.


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## Engel

chinchillafuzzy said:


> I would most definitely consult your vet about getting an x ray a few days before the due date. It could be lifesaving if there is a large puppy in position to come out first, especially if that puppy is breech or has a very large head. And since you have no idea who the sire is, the puppies could be larger than expected. An x ray can also give an accurate count of puppies so that you can insure that all of the puppies are born and that one isn’t retained (which can lead to sepsis and death in the mother pretty quickly.) I know some people don’t agree with x rays for a pregnant bitch, and I used to question them as well. I am very wary of radiation as my son has had probably 50+ x rays in his short life of 6 years (due to congenital defects.) However, knowing what I know now, with a lot of breeder friends, I would take the minuscule radiation (my vet office has a very modern very low dose radiation machine), over the alternative. I know a breeder who had a sonogram done and there were many puppies, then (thankfully) got an x ray done and saw that most of the puppies had been reabsorbed and there was one very large Singleton puppy remaining. The vet could see by the size of the skull that it would not be able to fit through the birth canal and so they were able to do a c section and both mom and baby survived. I would consult with your vet and weigh the risks vs positives to having one done, especially in this uncertain situation.


Thanks for the information. All of the dogs where she came from were toy breeds, her size or smaller so hopefully it should be ok but I'll definitely talk to the vet


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## Engel

Vita said:


> Engel, despite just losing a litter of two puppies, I still have mixed feelings about fetal puppy exposure to radiation. Neither of the two vets I saw wanted to do these either. In my case, it was tragedy, but in most cases, not doing an xray prevents _future_ tragedies.
> 
> _* When there's a problem, an xray is absolutely your very best friend. In the overwhelming majority of dog births, however, there are none and you've set up the puppies to develop cancer later in life and the mother to have non-cancer breast tumors.*_
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mortality in Beagles Irradiated during Prenatal and Postnatal Development. II. Contribution of Benign and Malignant Neoplasia
> from Radiation Research, Journal of Radiation Research Society
> 
> To evaluate the lifetime carcinogenic hazards of exposure to ionizing radiation during development, 1,680 beagles received whole-body exposures to60 Co γ rays or sham exposures. Eight groups of 120 dogs each received mean doses of 15.6-17.5 or 80.8-88.3 cGy in early, mid- or late gestation, at 8, 28 or 55 days postcoitus or at 2 days after birth. Another group of 120 dogs received a mean dose of 82.6 cGy as 70-day-old juveniles and one group of 240 dogs received a mean dose of 81.2 cGy as 365-day-old young adults. Sham irradiations were given to 360 controls. Sexes were equally represented.
> 
> In 1,343 dogs allowed to live out their life span, neoplasia was a major disease, contributing to mortality in 40% of the dogs. There was a significant increase in benign and malignant neoplasms occurring in young dogs (<4 years old), including fatal malignancies, after irradiation in the perinatal (late fetal and neonatal) periods.
> 
> The lifetime incidence of fatal neoplasms was also increased in dogs irradiated perinatally. Three malignancies-lymphomas, hemangiosarcomas and mammary carcinomas-accounted for 51% of all fatal tumors. There was an apparent lifetime increase and earlier onset of lymphomas in dogs exposed as fetuses. Fatal hemangiosarcomas were increased in dogs irradiated early and late in gestation.
> 
> Fatal mammary carcinomas were not increased by irradiation, although non-fatal carcinomas were increased after perinatal exposure. Myeloproliferative disorders and central nervous system astrocytomas appeared to be increased in perinatally irradiated dogs. These data suggest that irradiation in both the fetal and neonatal periods is associated with increased early onset and lifetime cancer risk.
> 
> 
> 
> But first you have to confirm whether or not your dog is pregnant. This can confirmed with simple lab test (Relaxin) from the link I gave you in this thread. I hope you've written down the name of it to give your vet tomorrow.
> 
> You also don't know the size of male if she is pregnant and let the vet know this; if he was larger, your dog could be at increased risk for the problems Chinchillafuzzy described. This is something else your vet can factor in as he makes his decision.
> 
> In my case, the stud was smaller, so the breeding was a safe bet the pups would be small. The first one was born breech and was large, causing problems, setting up problems for the second one that was born head first, came quickly and was a nice small size. It didn't help that this litter of two was arrived a few days early. Hopefully you will be luckier.
Click to expand...

I'm so sorry to hear this Vita. I hope you and your Bella are ok. ? And I've written it down don't worry. 

Also I now have to wait until Monday afternoon to find out if she's pregnant as the vets are out on emergencies and there's no one to do it ?

As I don't know the exact time she bred if she bred, I don't know how far along she is! I've had her 46 days but we're guessing that she was receptive 1-2 weeks BEFORE. So she could be anywhere between 49 days to about to pop. I've currently made a makeshift whelping area just in case as she's got A LOT of milk and is showing nesting behaviour as well as struggling to get comfy. She's a bit more clingy at the moment as well. She is very unhappy with being left in the crate overnight when normally she's fine and sleeps like a baby! She's not showing any signs of pain so to speak. Eating, drinking and toileting normally. Well she's still eating like a horse in small meals but she's using it for something as there's not much waste considering how much is going in.

Also in the picture you took of your Bella when you washed her (I think 2 days ago) how far along was she. My Bella looks the EXACT same.


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## Dechi

Vita said:


> Engel, despite just losing a litter of two puppies, I still have mixed feelings about fetal puppy exposure to radiation. Neither of the two vets I saw wanted to do these either. In my case, it was tragedy, but in most cases, not doing an xray prevents _future_ tragedies.
> 
> _* When there's a problem, an xray is absolutely your very best friend. In the overwhelming majority of dog births, however, there are none and you've set up the puppies to develop cancer later in life and the mother to have non-cancer breast tumors.*_
> 
> 
> But first you have to confirm whether or not your dog is pregnant. This can confirmed with simple lab test (Relaxin) from the link I gave you in this thread. I hope you've written down the name of it to give your vet tomorrow.
> 
> You also don't know the size of male if she is pregnant and let the vet know this; if he was larger, your dog could be at increased risk for the problems Chinchillafuzzy described. This is something else your vet can factor in as he makes his decision.
> 
> In my case, the stud was smaller, so the breeding was a safe bet the pups would be small. The first one was born breech and was large, causing problems, setting up problems for the second one that was born head first, came quickly and was a nice small size. It didn't help that this litter of two was arrived a few days early. Hopefully you will be luckier.


I’m sorry for your loss but you are in no position to give advice to anyone regarding whelping a litter or breeding a dog for that matter.

You should mourn your puppies, learn from your mistakes and the tragic consequences it had on defenseless animals and keep to yourself.

Sometimes in life it’s better to just retreat and stay quiet than try to defend the undefendable.


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Vita said:
> 
> 
> 
> Engel, despite just losing a litter of two puppies, I still have mixed feelings about fetal puppy exposure to radiation. Neither of the two vets I saw wanted to do these either. In my case, it was tragedy, but in most cases, not doing an xray prevents _future_ tragedies.
> 
> _* When there's a problem, an xray is absolutely your very best friend. In the overwhelming majority of dog births, however, there are none and you've set up the puppies to develop cancer later in life and the mother to have non-cancer breast tumors.*_
> 
> 
> But first you have to confirm whether or not your dog is pregnant. This can confirmed with simple lab test (Relaxin) from the link I gave you in this thread. I hope you've written down the name of it to give your vet tomorrow.
> 
> You also don't know the size of male if she is pregnant and let the vet know this; if he was larger, your dog could be at increased risk for the problems Chinchillafuzzy described. This is something else your vet can factor in as he makes his decision.
> 
> In my case, the stud was smaller, so the breeding was a safe bet the pups would be small. The first one was born breech and was large, causing problems, setting up problems for the second one that was born head first, came quickly and was a nice small size. It didn't help that this litter of two was arrived a few days early. Hopefully you will be luckier.
> 
> 
> 
> I’m sorry for your loss but you are in no position to give advice to anyone regarding whelping a litter or breeding a dog for that matter.
> 
> You should mourn your puppies, learn from your mistakes and the tragic consequences it had on defenseless animals and keep to yourself.
> 
> Sometimes in life it’s better to just retreat and stay quiet than try to defend the undefendable.
Click to expand...

Any advice given is appreciated. 

Sometimes things don't go well at no fault of mum or owner. It's not unusual to have 1-2 die in a litter hence why they have multiple to increase the chances of a pup surviving. 

Have you got any advice Dechi?


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## Dechi

Engel said:


> Any advice given is appreciated.
> 
> Sometimes things don't go well at no fault of mum or owner. It's not unusual to have 1-2 die in a litter hence why they have multiple to increase the chances of a pup surviving.
> 
> Have you got any advice Dechi?


Her story is a very particular one and I won’t get into it other to say that badluck had very little to do with it.

I’m sorry I don’t have any advice for you because I don’t have enough knowledge.

I do sincerely hope everything goes well for your little one though.


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Engel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any advice given is appreciated.
> 
> Sometimes things don't go well at no fault of mum or owner. It's not unusual to have 1-2 die in a litter hence why they have multiple to increase the chances of a pup surviving.
> 
> Have you got any advice Dechi?
> 
> 
> 
> Her story is a very particular one and I won’t get into it other to say that badluck had very little to do with it.
> 
> I’m sorry I don’t have any advice for you because I don’t have enough knowledge.
> 
> I do sincerely hope everything goes well for your little one though.
Click to expand...

Thats fair enough! ?


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## Vita

Dechi said:


> I’m sorry for your loss but you are in no position to give advice to anyone regarding whelping a litter or breeding a dog for that matter.
> 
> You should mourn your puppies, learn from your mistakes and the tragic consequences it had on defenseless animals and keep to yourself.
> 
> Sometimes in life it’s better to just retreat and stay quiet than try to defend the undefendable.


Dechi, if anyone but me had written my comment to Engel, you'd be thumbs upping it, so take your own advice about staying quiet. You clearly want to rehash your now-deleted sneaky missions statement thread to censor me from talking about my dreams of breeding Bella, or how you wrecked my first 52 Weeks thread of Sachii and Bella. 

And I'll bet you grinned from ear to ear when you learned I lost my puppies yesterday, and *it took you less than 24 hours to rub it in*. That's so evil, seriously, what is wrong with you? Try bringing joy and human life into the world yourself and maybe you'll stop obsessing over spaying perfectly good poodles not on your narrow list of approved breeders.

This "advice" you gave is also partly based on a lie: there's _nothing_ about my comment to Engel in trying to "defend the undefendable". 

No, you twisted my comment to use it as an opportunity to attack. What you said does not reflect words from someone who is sorry for my loss; it was designed only to bring about more pain and conflict than you've already caused. It only ticks me off and makes you look heartless.


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## Vita

Dechi said:


> Her story is a very particular one and I won’t get into it other to say that badluck had very little to do with it.
> 
> I’m sorry I don’t have any advice for you because I don’t have enough knowledge.
> 
> I do sincerely hope everything goes well for your little one though.


Engel, my story is that I have a beautiful black toy poodle that is champion sired and many champs in the pedigree. I had her health tested for all known genetic diseases and she's clear. The same goes for the red stud I chose for her. Initially I planned on showing her, but I couldn't get the hang of grooming and a show groomer was too far away to drive to; long distances cause anxiety for me, as well as my dog Bella. 

This annoyed a few here including Dechi who gave me advice about showing and grooming, and it's like they took it personal that I didn't use their advice. They are also BIG into titling poodles as additional proof that it's 'worthy' of being bred. They also have a narrow idea of who should breed a dog, and even informed hobby breeders don't make the cut for them.

So although I was unsuccessful in showing Bella, I tried to fulfill my other dream of having one to two litters with her before spaying her. This angered Dechi and a few of her friends who puts me in the inexperienced backyard breeder category despite that I bred my cocker spaniel in the '90s without a problem, or that I had done testing, selected a good stud, and have read and written researched-based articles and posts with links. 

In their minds, I just wasn't good enough for that small group, and the hostility and drama they created is memorable. And today, I see Dechi is trying to rekindle the drama by slyly saying that "bad luck had little to do" with my loosing the puppies.


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## Mysticrealm

chinchillafuzzy said:


> I would most definitely consult your vet about getting an x ray a few days before the due date. It could be lifesaving if there is a large puppy in position to come out first, especially if that puppy is breech or has a very large head. And since you have no idea who the sire is, the puppies could be larger than expected. An x ray can also give an accurate count of puppies so that you can insure that all of the puppies are born and that one isn’t retained (which can lead to sepsis and death in the mother pretty quickly.) I know some people don’t agree with x rays for a pregnant bitch, and I used to question them as well. I am very wary of radiation as my son has had probably 50+ x rays in his short life of 6 years (due to congenital defects.) However, knowing what I know now, with a lot of breeder friends, I would take the minuscule radiation (my vet office has a very modern very low dose radiation machine), over the alternative. I know a breeder who had a sonogram done and there were many puppies, then (thankfully) got an x ray done and saw that most of the puppies had been reabsorbed and there was one very large Singleton puppy remaining. The vet could see by the size of the skull that it would not be able to fit through the birth canal and so they were able to do a c section and both mom and baby survived. I would consult with your vet and weigh the risks vs positives to having one done, especially in this uncertain situation.


I strongly agree with Chinchilla fuzzy. X-rays are definitely something that should be done especially on the toy breeds (and some other breeds such as english bulldogs), to give the best chance at a positive whelping outcome.


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## tammyw

Hi Engel! I personally have no experience in this area but I asked my breeder and she said she always x-rays. Perhaps you could get one of the reputable breeders to talk you through this? Basically acting as a mentor. My breeder is super friendly so maybe she would be willing to talk you through it if you were interested, but I couldn’t say unless I first asked her.


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## Engel

Vita said:


> Engel, my story is that I have a beautiful black toy poodle that is champion sired and many champs in the pedigree. I had her health tested for all known genetic diseases and she's clear. The same goes for the red stud I chose for her. Initially I planned on showing her, but I couldn't get the hang of grooming and a show groomer was too far away to drive to; long distances cause anxiety for me, as well as my dog Bella.
> 
> This annoyed a few here including Dechi who gave me advice about showing and grooming, and it's like they took it personal that I didn't use their advice. They are also BIG into titling poodles as additional proof that it's 'worthy' of being bred. They also have a narrow idea of who should breed a dog, and even informed hobby breeders don't make the cut for them.
> 
> So although I was unsuccessful in showing Bella, I tried to fulfill my other dream of having one to two litters with her before spaying her. This angered Dechi and a few of her friends who puts me in the inexperienced backyard breeder category despite that I bred my cocker spaniel in the '90s without a problem, or that I had done testing, selected a good stud, and have read and written researched-based articles and posts with links.
> 
> In their minds, I just wasn't good enough for that small group, and the hostility and drama they created is memorable. And today, I see Dechi is trying to rekindle the drama by slyly saying that "bad luck had little to do" with my loosing the puppies.


I'll start off by saying this; I understand both parties and I'd like you to stop bickering on my thread due to the fact I DON'T CARE WHAT (S)HE SAID OR DID. I don't care what you guys choose to do in your life with your dogs. No one could tell you or me what to do; but people can advise. At the end of the day if you don't like someone's opinion, DON'T ASK. I came here for information and advice and accepting of all. Yes we may disagree on the right way and a healthy debate is great. You've both provided me with useful information and I thank you both for your time. Put your differences aside. I understand that you guys may not get along or appreciate each others comments and that's fine. Retaliation however, I will not entertain.

Moving on...

I'm sorry to hear about your pups Vita, hopefully you can learn from it in order to produce a healthy litter next time if you plan to do so.

Also,

*UPDATE*

During the past 24 hours (roughly) we've had a slight development.

Bella has become increasingly uncomfortable and restless; she's also breathing quite quickly. She's not herself and our other 2 dogs are acting strange too; like they know somethings different. They are very attentive of bella.

She's currently pacing and panting. When she lies down she lies on her side and then moments later she gets up and moves. She's very alert.

Any ideas on whats going on?

I've had her for 46 days though she was receptive 1-2 week before so in theory she could be anywhere between 46 to 60 days


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## Engel

tammyw said:


> Hi Engel! I personally have no experience in this area but I asked my breeder and she said she always x-rays. Perhaps you could get one of the reputable breeders to talk you through this? Basically acting as a mentor. My breeder is super friendly so maybe she would be willing to talk you through it if you were interested, but I couldn’t say unless I first asked her.


That'd be great! I'm more than happy for anyone whose experienced in whelping to message me! If they'd be happy with anyone who gave their time to help me.


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## tammyw

Engel said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Engel! I personally have no experience in this area but I asked my breeder and she said she always x-rays. Perhaps you could get one of the reputable breeders to talk you through this? Basically acting as a mentor. My breeder is super friendly so maybe she would be willing to talk you through it if you were interested, but I couldn’t say unless I first asked her.
> 
> 
> 
> That'd be great! I'm more than happy for anyone whose experienced in whelping to message me! If they'd be happy with anyone who gave their time to help me.
Click to expand...

I just sent you a PM with her info. She is expecting your call!


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## Engel

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sfKpYgysTnmS3WdYA. 

Where I point it where I've been feeling a lot of movement....very close now 

(Also ignore the background noise, I'm watching Bondi vet)


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## tammyw

I wonder if there are any breeders in the UK you can talk to? Since it’s so expensive for you to call my breeder in the US.

Anyone here have someone in the UK to recommend?


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## Rose n Poos

I don't remember if you said you'd been monitoring temp, but it drops below normal (I want to say to abt 98.1 but would have to confirm) 2-24 hours before labor commences.

and, is Skype a possibility for overseas communications?

What to expect
Your female will show some of these signs or all of them. If your experience is not normal from things you have read, you should call your vet. Delaying help from a vet could endanger your dam and pups. This is a time to remember to be safe rather than sorry.

First stage of labor:
(This stage often goes unnoticed, and takes place in the 24 hours following temperature drop.)
Temperature FINALLY drops to 98°F from its normal 99, 100, 101°F (you should have been taking it regularly for a few days).
If you are really committed, the temperature taking does work. You will find her temperature around 99 to 101, and as soon as it starts to drop below 99 and continues to drop (now you take it every hour or two) you have about 12-24 hours from the start of the drop. When it bottoms out to 98 or 97.9, then you have about 2-12 hours.
You may find your dam much more restless and not able to get comfortable. She will stretch out on her side.
You may find her eyes different; they will dilate, and she will stare at you.
She may not want you out of her sight. She may go to her whelping box.
She may vomit. She may try to have a bowel movement from the pressure. She may urinate frequently.
She will refuse to eat and seek a quiet spot, like a closet or under a bed.
She may have some mucus discharge, and her vulva area will become puffier.
The normal body temperature for animals is generally higher than for humans. The normal rectal temperature of a dog is 99.5° to 102.5°F. The normal temperature of a puppy at birth is 96-97°F. The temperature gradually increases with age until it is 100°F at four weeks of age.

Second stage of labor:
Your female may go to her whelping box, or couch, or wherever she has chosen to have her pups, and start digging.
She may start shivering and panting, examining her rear, and licking her vulva.
She may have mild contractions, vomiting, pooping and urinating more.
Warning Signs: twitching, green discharge (green discharge is only normal AFTER a pup is born).
At the first sign of a contraction, give her some calcium. Offer her vanilla ice cream, or you can use something such as Calsorb.

Third stage of Labor:
Water sacs present and break
Shivering and panting may continue and get stronger, as well as digging.
Contractions will become stronger and closer together.
Vomiting, grunting and pushing.
Warning Signs: pushing on a pup for over an hour causing exhaustion (more warning signs listed below).
Normal and preferred time to push on one puppy that is in the birth canal is two to ten minutes.
A puppy half out, stuck and breech must be pulled out or it will drown if pushing doesn't get this puppy out within a few minutes.

The time frames vary from site to site but the temp drop is what you're looking for.


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## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> I don't remember if you said you'd been monitoring temp, but it drops below normal (I want to say to abt 98.1 but would have to confirm) 2-24 hours before labor commences.
> 
> and, is Skype a possibility for overseas communications?
> 
> What to expect
> Your female will show some of these signs or all of them. If your experience is not normal from things you have read, you should call your vet. Delaying help from a vet could endanger your dam and pups. This is a time to remember to be safe rather than sorry.
> 
> First stage of labor:
> (This stage often goes unnoticed, and takes place in the 24 hours following temperature drop.)
> Temperature FINALLY drops to 98°F from its normal 99, 100, 101°F (you should have been taking it regularly for a few days).
> If you are really committed, the temperature taking does work. You will find her temperature around 99 to 101, and as soon as it starts to drop below 99 and continues to drop (now you take it every hour or two) you have about 12-24 hours from the start of the drop. When it bottoms out to 98 or 97.9, then you have about 2-12 hours.
> You may find your dam much more restless and not able to get comfortable. She will stretch out on her side.
> You may find her eyes different; they will dilate, and she will stare at you.
> She may not want you out of her sight. She may go to her whelping box.
> She may vomit. She may try to have a bowel movement from the pressure. She may urinate frequently.
> She will refuse to eat and seek a quiet spot, like a closet or under a bed.
> She may have some mucus discharge, and her vulva area will become puffier.
> The normal body temperature for animals is generally higher than for humans. The normal rectal temperature of a dog is 99.5° to 102.5°F. The normal temperature of a puppy at birth is 96-97°F. The temperature gradually increases with age until it is 100°F at four weeks of age.
> 
> Second stage of labor:
> Your female may go to her whelping box, or couch, or wherever she has chosen to have her pups, and start digging.
> She may start shivering and panting, examining her rear, and licking her vulva.
> She may have mild contractions, vomiting, pooping and urinating more.
> Warning Signs: twitching, green discharge (green discharge is only normal AFTER a pup is born).
> At the first sign of a contraction, give her some calcium. Offer her vanilla ice cream, or you can use something such as Calsorb.
> 
> Third stage of Labor:
> Water sacs present and break
> Shivering and panting may continue and get stronger, as well as digging.
> Contractions will become stronger and closer together.
> Vomiting, grunting and pushing.
> Warning Signs: pushing on a pup for over an hour causing exhaustion (more warning signs listed below).
> Normal and preferred time to push on one puppy that is in the birth canal is two to ten minutes.
> A puppy half out, stuck and breech must be pulled out or it will drown if pushing doesn't get this puppy out within a few minutes.
> 
> The time frames vary from site to site but the temp drop is what you're looking for.


This is a lot of info and it's greatly appreciated! I will read this as soon as ive sent this. We aren't prepared and don't have a thermometer!!!! 

We were waiting for confirmation before getting everything we needed-rookie mistake i know, don't shout at me; i can totally feel your judging eyes through the screen :/


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## twyla

No judging 

You are asking questions and getting ready the only experience I have is with kittens that didn't go well the stray was starved weighing in at 4 pounds, she miscarried half her litter we opted to abort the rest and spay her to save her life. Esme, as I later named her, recovered gained weight ending up 12 pounds she lived another 16 years.

I wish you well


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## Rose n Poos

Lol, I try not to judge, but I do observe. (insert smiley face)


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## Engel

What ive noticed so far:
-restless and unable to get comfy
-laying on her side
-She is staring a lot more she doesn't usually make eye contact
-SOOOOOO CLINGY- a lot more than usual
-She's urinating a lot
-Vulva is really puffy
-shes digging and trying to rip up the rug and sofa..
-Examining and cleaning her vulva 
- i haven't noticed any contractions but i have puppy milk 

Also, the vulva is opening now and isn't liking it when i check her hind end- normally she's ok with it 

keep you updated as things progress


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## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> Lol, I try not to judge, but I do observe. (insert smiley face)


LOL :laugh:


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## Dechi

tammyw said:


> I wonder if there are any breeders in the UK you can talk to? Since it’s so expensive for you to call my breeder in the US.
> 
> Anyone here have someone in the UK to recommend?


Facebook calls are free of charge. Or skype. Or Apple’s app (forget the name). No need to use the phone.


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## Dechi

Engel said:


> What ive noticed so far:
> -restless and unable to get comfy
> -laying on her side
> -She is staring a lot more she doesn't usually make eye contact
> -SOOOOOO CLINGY- a lot more than usual
> -She's urinating a lot
> -Vulva is really puffy
> -shes digging and trying to rip up the rug and sofa..
> -Examining and cleaning her vulva
> - i haven't noticed any contractions but i have puppy milk
> 
> Also, the vulva is opening now and isn't liking it when i check her hind end- normally she's ok with it
> 
> keep you updated as things progress


You are going to have a long night ! Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your baby.


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## patk

i'm confused. isn't this the day for her rescan? did she get one? of course you said she was a rescue and had been bred twice before, so ...


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## Engel

patk said:


> i'm confused. isn't this the day for her rescan? did she get one? of course you said she was a rescue and had been bred twice before, so ...


It would have been but it was cancelled like an hour before we were due up there. The vet had an emergency and there was no one there to do the scan. It has been rescheduled to Monday...if she makes it that long :/


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> You are going to have a long night ! Keeping my fingers crossed for you and your baby.


Thank you and i think i am in for a long night.


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## patk

if you think it's going to be an early delivery, i think i'd check and see if there's another vet around, even if she has delivered two litters previously. were you told if all of her pups survived?


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## Engel

patk said:


> if you think it's going to be an early delivery, i think i'd check and see if there's another vet around, even if she has delivered two litters previously. were you told if all of her pups survived?


Well I've had her 47 days now. She was bred 1-2 weeks before (educated guess) so in theory she could be 61 days.

All pups in the last 2 litter survived.


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## patk

well then may all go as one might wish!


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## Vita

Engel said:


> I'll start off by saying this; I understand both parties and I'd like you to stop bickering on my thread due to the fact I DON'T CARE WHAT (S)HE SAID OR DID. I don't care what you guys choose to do in your life with your dogs. No one could tell you or me what to do; but people can advise. At the end of the day if you don't like someone's opinion, DON'T ASK. I came here for information and advice and accepting of all...


As you suggested in that last sentence, I didn't ask for Dechi's opinion. You would have done better to berate her for being nasty toward another member on your thread. She used my helping you as an opportunity to say cruel things and bully me. You may not care, but this is the bully playbook by a tiny group of know-it-alls. 

They provoke and throw stones, expecting you'll be a punching bag and a doormat by saying nothing to keep the peace. They never PM you with their concerns b/c their entire point is degrade, spread rumors, and humiliate when you don't agree with their opinions, and are very vindictive as seen on Dechi's post. When a target fights back, suddenly the conflict is downgraded to bickering and a 'problem'. The problem is the bully, not the bickering.

I'd apologize for interrupting your thread, but I didn't, she did with her cruel and untrue remarks. Beyond that, that's all I have to say about that topic here.


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## MollyMuiMa

It sounds like you are probably on puppy watch :clock2:............wishing her a safe and healthy whelp! Will be waiting for the news!!!


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## Engel

UPDATE
Nothing became of last night, there were no contractions but I understand that they can show signs 24-48 hours before. I'm keeping a close eye on her


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## Skylar

Engel, my heart goes out to you. This is all new for you and you weren’t the one to decide breed the dog. You were the kind person who took a dog in need into your home and into your heart. 

I hope everything goes smoothly. (((Hugs)))


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## jojogal001

I bred my chihuahua several years ago. She had been spending the evening in the nursery I set up for her. When she went into labor, she came and got me. She was panting, would only lay in her side, and pitched a fit if I tried leaving the room. That started at 11 pm. I was on the bed in her nursery room, dozed off, and woke up to her nesting behind me. I put her in the nursery and closed her in. At 6:30 she had her first puppy. 

The second one came quickly, and the third took about 20 minutes. Then she stopped, the contractions stopped. 3 hours later, it all started again! She had 2 more within 10 minutes of each other.

I did have the X-rays done 3 days before she was due. The vet said it should be fine. He showed me 5 little spines in the X-ray! I thought she’d have 2! But what is important, to me, about having it dwas me, was I knew how many puppies to expect.

I did talk to my vet after the first 3 were born, and he said as long as she didn’t appear to be in pain, that it was fairly common for the birthings to be staggered. Do not take this as gospel, I’m not a vet.

It is too late for an X-ray, as it sounds like the pups are n their way. I don’t necessarily agree with the 24-48 hour ur timeline nice the panting begins, but again, I’m not a professional.

I hope all goes well, and everyone is healthy. One thing that happened to mom, about 10 days after birthing, was she had a uterine infection. She stayed with me and wouldn’t nurse the puppies. And I noticed a discharge from her vulva. I dint know how common this is, but just want to give you an idea that it can happen, and to know what to watch for. She was also vomiting.

Good luck! Will be awaiting the next update!

P.S. my vet did a pregnancy test, and it came back negative. The vet said it was 96% accurate, and that she definitely was not pregnant. I noticed all the signs and though it was a false pregnancy. So I took her back, and he said “I feel a few lumps, which I suspect are puppies.” But he never confirmed she was pregnant. Just goes to show you vets can’t be certain either.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Engel

Skylar said:


> Engel, my heart goes out to you. This is all new for you and you weren’t the one to decide breed the dog. You were the kind person who took a dog in need into your home and into your heart.
> 
> I hope everything goes smoothly. (((Hugs)))


Only 2 people were interested in rehoming Bella. Me or a person who openly said they were going to use her as a breeding bitch. As you've pointed out, I didnt want her to be bred from. I already said to the vet that I wanted her spayed-the earliest they said was May. Even if she was pregnant. What'll be, will be. I can't change anything now-im just there for the ride.


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> I bred my chihuahua several years ago. She had been spending the evening in the nursery I set up for her. When she went into labor, she came and got me. She was panting, would only lay in her side, and pitched a fit if I tried leaving the room. That started at 11 pm. I was on the bed in her nursery room, dozed off, and woke up to her nesting behind me. I put her in the nursery and closed her in. At 6:30 she had her first puppy.
> 
> The second one came quickly, and the third took about 20 minutes. Then she stopped, the contractions stopped. 3 hours later, it all started again! She had 2 more within 10 minutes of each other.
> 
> I did have the X-rays done 3 days before she was due. The vet said it should be fine. He showed me 5 little spines in the X-ray! I thought she’d have 2! But what is important, to me, about having it dwas me, was I knew how many puppies to expect.
> 
> I did talk to my vet after the first 3 were born, and he said as long as she didn’t appear to be in pain, that it was fairly common for the birthings to be staggered. Do not take this as gospel, I’m not a vet.
> 
> It is too late for an X-ray, as it sounds like the pups are n their way. I don’t necessarily agree with the 24-48 hour ur timeline nice the panting begins, but again, I’m not a professional.
> 
> I hope all goes well, and everyone is healthy. One thing that happened to mom, about 10 days after birthing, was she had a uterine infection. She stayed with me and wouldn’t nurse the puppies. And I noticed a discharge from her vulva. I dint know how common this is, but just want to give you an idea that it can happen, and to know what to watch for. She was also vomiting.
> 
> Good luck! Will be awaiting the next update!
> 
> P.S. my vet did a pregnancy test, and it came back negative. The vet said it was 96% accurate, and that she definitely was not pregnant. I noticed all the signs and though it was a false pregnancy. So I took her back, and he said “I feel a few lumps, which I suspect are puppies.” But he never confirmed she was pregnant. Just goes to show you vets can’t be certain either.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Awful. My apso had a 'false' pregnancy at the end of last year. After we thought it was finished we had her spayed in the January. They opened her up and found that she was actually pregnant- just about to finish 1st trimester. At this point she was under aesthetic and there was great uncertainty that they would survive all these drugs that they put into mum as well as anaesthetic, so I told them to take the lot out. 

I'm going off what I have read on different forums and websites. I'm unsure. I think last night was her preparing her surroundings in preparation for whelping but I could be well off. She seems ok in herself today. She still struggles to get comfy and she seems off her food. Normally she's eaten it before its hit the bowl. Today she's having a few mouthfuls, then leaving it and then going back to it. As she's on wet food I don't leave the food out long as I don't want it going off. Past week or 2 shes eaten 1 and a half tins. (A normal dog of her size they recommend 2/3 of a tin a day). Today she hasn't even managed 1 tin. i'm putting little bits out at a time. 

Also uterine infection? I assume you're talking about pyometra and I've been keeping an eye out for signs of it. No puss as of yet so its not an open one and she seems really well and perky so I doubt she has a closed one. No excessive drinking or fatigue either. Apparently though its not unusual for a pregnant bitch to have a pyometra while in pup or after as, lets be honest, it isn't the cleanest of activities...


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## Engel

Update...kinda 

I've messed up the dates. 

I haven't had her 47 days I've had her 8 weeks tomorrow. Vet is almost certain if she was bred it was a week or 2 before. Basically, if she is preggers, she's due any time now!

I've ordered more whelping things in hope that they'll arrive before she pops.

She is still struggling to get comfy, very restless. Breathing quicker, few Huff's and puffs. Lip licking, pacing, examining and licking vulva and she's been off her food today and has been drinking a lot more.


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## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Update...kinda
> 
> I've messed up the dates.
> 
> I haven't had her 47 days I've had her 8 weeks tomorrow. Vet is almost certain if she was bred it was a week or 2 before. Basically, if she is preggers, she's due any time now!
> 
> I've ordered more whelping things in hope that they'll arrive before she pops.
> 
> She is still struggling to get comfy, very restless. Breathing quicker, few Huff's and puffs. Lip licking, pacing, examining and licking vulva and she's been off her food today and has been drinking a lot more.




Sounds like you’re about there! Best wishes to you, mama and the puppies. Hoping for a smooth delivery. I’m watching for your updates!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Engel

*UPDATE​*
Clearing up the details from previous posts so all the up to date information will be here!

*The Beginning*

I got Bella 8 weeks ago, I noticed that she had a broken tail, damaged teeth and was really thin- 3kg to be exact. She came from a house hold with 10+ dogs all the intact males were toy breeds. In the past she has had 2 litters, each containing 4 pups, all of which survived.

2-3 days after I got her, I shaved her down as she was completely covered in matts and showered her, before showering her I noticed dried blood in the matts that I had removed from around her vulva. 

A few days later I took her to the vets (vet 1) for a health check. She was perfectly fine other than her bad teeth and weight. I asked the vet to check her hind end to confirm that she indeed was either coming into heat or going out of it- she agreed. I then asked about her being spayed and was told she couldn't be spayed until May as she had to wait 3 months after being in heat. I thought she was coming into heat and didn't think anything of it. Just that I had to keep a close eye on her to ensure there was no mating so I could then get her spayed in the May. That was fine.

A week or so later I went back to check her weight and to get flea and wormer for the other dogs I have as well as get her used to going to the vets as she was nervous, I thought it would help her get used to the vets and nurses there. I was speaking to the vet (vet 1) again how there was no bleeding so it definitely happened before she came to me. I also mentioned she could be pregnant and I explained where she came from and asked again about spaying. The answer was the same as last time; no it'd have to wait until May. 

I saw another vet (Vet 2) for a scan as I suspected she was in pup. The scan was inconclusive as there was amniotic fluid within the uterus but couldn't say for certain if there was any life there. She was due back for a re-scan on the 12th April however it was cancelled as there was an emergency. Any vet(s) there were only dealing with emergency cases and a scan for pregnancy wasn't one of them. It was rescheduled for Monday 15th April. 

A few weeks pass and I see another vet (Vet 3) to check Bella over. He took one brief look at her. I asked about a spay and he said they'd do it in May and said she wasn't pregnant and left the consultation room. 

I took Bella back in to check weight and get her flea and worm and got chatting to yet another vet (Vet 4). He suspected that she was pregnant and that we would be hearing the pitter patter of little feet soon. 

Went back and saw vet (3) he said that it sounds like she's pregnant and everything that's happening is consistent with a dog during their last trimester. He wished us luck and said if we had any issues to call.

For the next couple of days to a week I spent my time observing her with my dogs and trying to work out when her heat cycle could have been. This is how I did it:
I originally got Bella and her son (not intact) and I was told he was from her first litter. He was born 6th April. I counted back 9 weeks and got to the beginning of February. So she must have conceived during those first 2 weeks. The previous owner very confidently told me that her last heat was August 2018 (she then changed it 2/3 times). Now the time between February and August is 6 months, so that'd be about right. I found out that the second litter was born within the last 2 weeks of October. Count back 9 weeks and that gives us August. So I'm using that as a guide. So she would have been on heat this February, except when I got her she wasn't on heat however she had been. 

For arguments sake we'll say the heat cycle lasts 3 weeks. Split into 3 stages.
First week-Proestrus-Time of bleeding. 
Second week-Estrus-Time of being receptive. Mating takes place here.
Third week-Diestrus- cool down period. May be mated at this time also, but its unlikely. Marks the ending of the heat. Bitch is no longer receptive.

As Bella wasn't bleeding or receptive when I got her so she was leaving heat. Meaning that she would have been coming out of or already out of heat. She would have been receptive between the 4th and 11th of February. Count to today and we're at 60+ days.

*Now*

Bella's behaviour is different. She is clingy, more so than usual but seems unsure. She wants to be with us but doesn't at the same time. She's very unsure on what to do.
She's been getting increasingly restless over the past 24 hours and can't get comfy. She will be laying on her side, then her back and then she'll get up, switch sides etc. She's nesting a lot and taken 2 of her toys/ teddies into the box mixing them in with the blankets. She's very alert and won't settle. She won't let me out of her sight. 

She's pacing a lot as well. Breathing quicker than usual. There's movement within her abdomen which would be consistent with the size of a potential puppy in my opinion. They are much lower than what they were. She's also staring A LOT. She never makes eye-contact so this isn't normal for her. She also keeps examining and licking her vulva which is now puffy in comparison to what it was.

Over the last 12 hours she's started urinating a lot more and is off her food. She normally eats like a horse; eating a can and a 1/2 a day and still wanting more to now being unable to finish a can.


----------



## tammyw

I keep coming back to check on you and Bella!! It’s so exciting hearing new updates!


----------



## Engel

tammyw said:


> I keep coming back to check on you and Bella!! It’s so exciting hearing new updates!


There's nothing yet. Very uncomfortable and I think the pups are lower than they were...all we can do is wait. 

I'll keep you posted and if anything come of it, i'll add photos too


----------



## tammyw

Engel said:


> tammyw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I keep coming back to check on you and Bella!! It’s so exciting hearing new updates!
> 
> 
> 
> There's nothing yet. Very uncomfortable and I think the pups are lower than they were...all we can do is wait.
> 
> I'll keep you posted and if anything come of it, i'll add photos too
Click to expand...

Thank you! So many of us on baby watch!!


----------



## Engel

*UPDATE AND QUESTION​*Abdomen activity is almost non existent. It's all gone quite. Is this normal?​


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> *UPDATE AND QUESTION​*
> Abdomen activity is almost non existent. It's all gone quite. Is this normal?​




Again, I am no vet,
But from my experience with Penny, I believe I stopped seeing the pups in her abdomen moving shortly before delivery. Not completely though. They got very low in her abdomen as they were moving towards the birth canal. I hope someone with more experience can give you a better answer. 

Is she in her whelping box? Is she nesting? If she is in the whelping box, is she laying down and getting up shifting positions a lot? These were things Penny did within a few hours of delivery. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Again, I am no vet,
> But from my experience with Penny, I believe I stopped seeing the pups in her abdomen moving shortly before delivery. Not completely though. They got very low in her abdomen as they were moving towards the birth canal. I hope someone with more experience can give you a better answer.
> 
> Is she in her whelping box? Is she nesting? If she is in the whelping box, is she laying down and getting up shifting positions a lot? These were things Penny did within a few hours of delivery.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I can still feel some movement but they were very active an hour or two ago. She is in her whelping box and yes she is nesting. She is laying down and shifting positions a lot. She's now completely refusing food and is drinking little water. 

I just put her out to toilet and she came back in hunching her back and relaxing again and then sat very quickly, followed by rapidly spinning round to examine her hind end. She's now in her nest.


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> I can still feel some movement but they were very active an hour or two ago. She is in her whelping box and yes she is nesting. She is laying down and shifting positions a lot. She's now completely refusing food and is drinking little water.
> 
> 
> 
> I just put her out to toilet and she came back in hunching her back and relaxing again and then sat very quickly, followed by rapidly spinning round to examine her hind end. She's now in her nest.




Sounds like she is very close. If you see her abdomen ripple, from about the rib cage to her hind end, her body is trying to push a puppy out. It should take about 10 minutes, give or take a few. 

She may still have some time to go before that happens, it should be tonight. 

Sending prayers and good thoughts to you and Bella both. Hang in there!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Sounds like she is very close. If you see her abdomen ripple, from about the rib cage to her hind end, her body is trying to push a puppy out. It should take about 10 minutes, give or take a few.
> 
> She may still have some time to go before that happens, it should be tonight.
> 
> Sending prayers and good thoughts to you and Bella both. Hang in there!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you


----------



## Dechi

Hoping for a quick and easy birth so you both can rest.


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Hoping for a quick and easy birth so you both can rest.


Thank you Dechi. It's just the anticipation and uncertainty that's affecting me at the moment. I'll keep you posted!!


----------



## Dechi

No news, good news ? I hope you have your little pups with you this morning.


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## jojogal001

Dechi said:


> No news, good news ? I hope you have your little pups with you this morning.




You just beat me to the punch Dechi. I woke up a couple of minutes ago and Elgin and Bella were in my mind. 

Elgin, I think we’re all waiting!


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> No news, good news ? I hope you have your little pups with you this morning.





jojogal001 said:


> Dechi said:
> 
> 
> 
> No news, good news ? I hope you have your little pups with you this morning.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You just beat me to the punch Dechi. I woke up a couple of minutes ago and Elgin and Bella were in my mind.
> 
> Elgin, I think we’re all waiting!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

There's nothing yet guys. Got a scan tomorrow afternoon. 

She's ate a small amount today, not a great deal and had some milk to help keep her hydrated and fueled. 

She keeps asking to go outside but when she does she goes to the same spot and starts digging. There's a little bit of tacky liquid coming from her vulva. 

I spoke to someone who bred their boxer years ago and they said that everything that is happening now happened to her a week before the whelp. They were doing everything I'm doing now a week before.

Whatever's growing will probably be here at the end of the week. I'll keep you guys posted.


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## Poodlebeguiled

This would make me a nervous wreck. You are really good to have taken her in and cared for her. I wonder if you'd try pm'ing this gal on the forum. She's very experienced with this breeding stuff. She might be someone to ask questions to put your mind at ease a little bit. https://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/268599-desiree-angus-babes-five-weeks-old.html

Lots of good wishes coming your way that everything will go smoothly.


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## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> This would make me a nervous wreck. You are really good to have taken her in and cared for her. I wonder if you'd try pm'ing this gal on the forum. She's very experienced with this breeding stuff. She might be someone to ask questions to put your mind at ease a little bit. https://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/268599-desiree-angus-babes-five-weeks-old.html
> 
> Lots of good wishes coming your way that everything will go smoothly.


Thank you. Im a bit nervous as I haven't even had a confirmation scan yet. It's meant to be tomorrow ?


----------



## glorybeecosta

Oh my heavens I just read this post and am on pins and needles, know nothing about births, never had children or seen a dog give birth, but I would be a nervous wreck. When I had a cat declawed, I let the vet keep it for 2 weeks, I was afraid to bring it home. knowing me, I would rush her to the vets and leave her there until it was all over. Best of luck and bless you for taking her and giving her a good home. I will be checking this post on a regular basis


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## chinchillafuzzy

What will the vet do at the confirmation scan? Take an x Ray? Do a sonogram? Just take a look at her and say yep she’s pregnant?


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## jojogal001

I just re-read your earlier post where you broke down everything in order. I think you might be expecting pups sooner than you think if the 60+ days is accurate. The gestation period for dogs is 63 days. Could it have been later than you thought?

Continuing to keep you two in my prayers and thoughts. 




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## Engel

glorybeecosta said:


> Oh my heavens I just read this post and am on pins and needles, know nothing about births, never had children or seen a dog give birth, but I would be a nervous wreck. When I had a cat declawed, I let the vet keep it for 2 weeks, I was afraid to bring it home. knowing me, I would rush her to the vets and leave her there until it was all over. Best of luck and bless you for taking her and giving her a good home. I will be checking this post on a regular basis


Thank you. I know little about births, haven't had children or seen a dog dig birth either! However, a few family members have though so they will be present. Also, there are plenty of people here who have been really helpful! 
I've been posting updates when something happens so if you hear nothing its probably because theres nothing to report as of yet.


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> I just re-read your earlier post where you broke down everything in order. I think you might be expecting pups sooner than you think if the 60+ days is accurate. The gestation period for dogs is 63 days. Could it have been later than you thought?
> 
> Continuing to keep you two in my prayers and thoughts.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. I broke it down in order so people can may be able to follow this thread better as I understand it's confusing and I was getting many questions as the information I provided originally wasn't clear. 

Yes it looks like we will be expecting pups sooner than first anticipated.


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## Engel

chinchillafuzzy said:


> What will the vet do at the confirmation scan? Take an x Ray? Do a sonogram? Just take a look at her and say yep she’s pregnant?


Well...being told she was pregnant BEFORE she was in her last week or days prior to whelping would have been nice. I'm not prepared and haven't got anything for whelping! Everything's been makeshift and not ideal but will have to do. X-ray would have been nice as well so we knew how many to expect. 

In the event that she was found to be pregnant, I had everything sorted in my head; what I needed to get and where from, how much time I had etc


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## Engel

Today's D-day...or scan day. Going to the vet in about a hour. I'll post an update when I get back. ?


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## glorybeecosta

Engel said:


> Today's D-day...or scan day. Going to the vet in about a hour. I'll post an update when I get back. ?


Good luck


----------



## EVpoodle

Good luck!


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## jojogal001

Best of luck!


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## Engel

UPDATE

Bella has been rescanned and the vet said she may of seen something that could have been a pup but wasn't sure. She said it could be a phantom. The vet couldn't feel anything and while in the vets I couldn't either-now I can. Vet said she's not 100% sure and to keep doing what we're doing. If there's anything it will arrive in the next 2 weeks.


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## Engel

I saw something like this on the scan but the vet moved quickly over it and couldn't find it again. She said, "I think it was poo."


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## Poodlebeguiled

Engel said:


> I saw something like this on the scan but the vet moved quickly over it and couldn't find it again. She said, "I think it was poo."


Hard to make out anything with those. Can't the vet do a relaxin blood test?

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/pregnancy-testing-in-the-dog


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## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Hard to make out anything with those. Can't the vet do a relaxin blood test?
> 
> https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/pregnancy-testing-in-the-dog


To be honest I didn't ask and they didn't offer. Also, Bella was getting extremely stressed and at one point I had to stop her from biting the nurse! 

I swear I saw a puppy on the scan and the vet thought the same too but she went so quickly that she went to go back and couldn't find it again! Then said it was probably poo... but it was in the shape of a puppy. 

I swear I saw it and that I have seen and felt movement! Other people have too! Just the vet who couldn't see or feel anything! I'm in no better position than what I was 24 hours ago.

Vet said to watch and phone her if she goes into labour. She's not 100% sure.


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## jojogal001

Oh my! Another inclusive result. I am so sorry she didn’t offer to do a pregnancy test. You would have known in minutes with no question. (Well at least 96% certainty). 

Hang in there Elgin. I know there’s no consoling you or Bella, but all we can do now is pray, and wait and see. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Oh my! Another inclusive result. I am so sorry she didn’t offer to do a pregnancy test. You would have known in minutes with no question. (Well at least 96% certainty).
> 
> Hang in there Elgin. I know there’s no consoling you or Bella, but all we can do now is pray, and wait and see.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know, it's really annoying! But the vet isn't 100% sure and said to carry on as we are just in case. She said she can't feel or see any unless they're hiding. I saw a pup like thing on the scan-vet thought it was too but couldn't find again it afterwards.


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## Skylar

Oh boy you're having quite the adventure with Bella - is she pregnant or is she not. Wish you were given a more definitive answer.


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## Dechi

Why can’t they just listen to the heartbeat like they do with women ? Too small, not hard to hear ?

I’m sorry you didn’t get more from this appointment. Waiting must be so hard, since you don’t even know if she’s pregnant or not.

I think an experienced breeder would know. Too bad there’s nobody near you.


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## Engel

Skylar said:


> Oh boy you're having quite the adventure with Bella - is she pregnant or is she not. Wish you were given a more definitive answer.


Tell me about it!! I wish it was more definitive too


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## Rose n Poos

I'm very surprised that between 4 different vets, they still can't confirm pregnancy at this late stage. What if it isn't pregnancy at all? I'd be camped out at the vets til someone confirms something! I don't understand why they don't seem to be as concerned as you are.


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Why can’t they just listen to the heartbeat like they do with women ? Too small, not hard to hear ?
> 
> I’m sorry you didn’t get more from this appointment. Waiting must be so hard, since you don’t even know if she’s pregnant or not.
> 
> I think an experienced breeder would know. Too bad there’s nobody near you.


I live in a very small town in the middle of no where. I have to travel for over an hour just to get to the nearest hospital! If vets want an xray it has to be done over an hour away at the animal hospital. 


On the plus side, we know she's clear of a pyometra! So at least we know that!


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## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> I'm very surprised that between 4 different vets, they still can't confirm pregnancy at this late stage. What if it isn't pregnancy at all? I'd be camped out at the vets til someone confirms something! I don't understand why they don't seem to be as concerned as you are.


By her behaviour they've all individually said that she sounds to be pregnant but when scanned nothing could be seen though I saw a shape which looked a lot like a pup. She's been checked for a pyometra and she's clear! Apparently she doesn't even look like a pregnant dog but during her other pregnancies she didn't look pregnant either and went on to have 4. 

I just don't know anymore. They've had £100 out of me so far and they've found nothing. I'm not going to get another scan im just going to wait and if she goes into labour I'll deal with it and phone them if there's any issues and if there isn't I will be turning up the next day with mum and pups asking them to explain it


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## chinchillafuzzy

Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. I would be very doubtful of the veterinary care that you have access to. You have seen what, 4 vets and no one even knows if she is pregnant? I am so confused as to how they are unsure at this point. Can you post some good pictures showing her belly, and nipple area?

A couple of days ago you thought she was 60 days along, correct? If that was the case and she is 62 days now, the puppies should be coming any time. Ridiculous of the vet to say within two weeks, as if she is 62 days now, then your girl would probably be dead in two weeks if she hadn’t delivered (if she is pregnant.) The gestation of dogs is 63 days and I have almost always seen puppies come at 63 days or a bit before. I would double check your counting. If it’s possible that she is over 63 days, I believe at 65-66 days the puppies would not be viable if they are still in there.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Well....the only thing left for you to do is...belly up to the bar and wait for the phone call....


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## Poodlebeguiled

Joking aside, I'd be worried too, as Chinchilla says. There must be a vet who can tell you if she's pregnant or not. Wth? They sound incompetent. What if she doesn't have any contractions and the puppies remain and are dead? That could set her up for a dangerous/deadly case of peritonitis. You may need to get more proactive and ask about some blood tests for that hormone and press on. This is scary.


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## Poodlebeguiled

If you're feeling movement, it could be babies or mild, ineffective contractions. It's likely that you mis-calculated the days and it is hopeful that she's fine, but needs a little more time. But still...I'd be as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. You could call various vets, even not in your area and see if anyone can give you some possible scenarios or advice as to what to check or ask about to your local vets.


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## glorybeecosta

Oh Lord those do not sound like very good vets, I would be scared to death. Most like jump down their throats and ask how they became a vet. I know nothing about babies or puppies or being pregnant, but for God sakes, those guys should not be in this kind of business. You should not have to tell them what to do they should know what to do to see if she is pregnant, feel so sorry for you and your fur baby. I feel like I am having a baby at 73 waiting on this, most exciting post. LOL


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## jojogal001

Ok. I think people will disagree with this, but I’m suggesting an X-ray. I had Penny xray’d a week before she was due. I was inexperienced, and I wanted to know how many there were. The X-ray will show the spines if there are puppies. I know that all 4 pups are still alive and doing well at 13 yrs old. They haven’t really had medical problems to speak of. I’ve kept in touch with all the parents of her puppies. I know there are risks with X-rays but I think now is the time to worry about Bella more. Can you go to the closest city to have that done? It really did sound like she was in labor 2-3 nights ago. 

I don’t want anything happen to Bella. You’ve been through so much with her that would be a horrible thing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Engel

chinchillafuzzy said:


> Seriously, this is getting ridiculous. I would be very doubtful of the veterinary care that you have access to. You have seen what, 4 vets and no one even knows if she is pregnant? I am so confused as to how they are unsure at this point. Can you post some good pictures showing her belly, and nipple area?
> 
> A couple of days ago you thought she was 60 days along, correct? If that was the case and she is 62 days now, the puppies should be coming any time. Ridiculous of the vet to say within two weeks, as if she is 62 days now, then your girl would probably be dead in two weeks if she hadn’t delivered (if she is pregnant.) The gestation of dogs is 63 days and I have almost always seen puppies come at 63 days or a bit before. I would double check your counting. If it’s possible that she is over 63 days, I believe at 65-66 days the puppies would not be viable if they are still in there.


The vet seems to reckon now that she would have been receptive a week before we had her so now she could be 57 days either way she's due.

I can try and get some photos but is very fidgety and getting more and more stressed when anyone gets near her hind end or tummy 
I'll do my best


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## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Well....the only thing left for you to do is...belly up to the bar and wait for the phone call....


Indeed!


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Joking aside, I'd be worried too, as Chinchilla says. There must be a vet who can tell you if she's pregnant or not. Wth? They sound incompetent. What if she doesn't have any contractions and the puppies remain and are dead? That could set her up for a dangerous/deadly case of peritonitis. You may need to get more proactive and ask about some blood tests for that hormone and press on. This is scary.


I will keep an eye on her and if she shows any signs of anything being wrong I'm straight down to the vets! I've already said that if it comes to saving Bella or puppies, It'll be Bella every time!!!

The 4 vets are actually from different practices.

By the end of the week if nothing's here i'll be taking Bella back to the vets for a check over. If things progress they have offered to do another rescan but I'm unsure whether I'd go and have another one, especially how she reacted today.


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## Engel

https://photos.app.goo.gl/pqA5rYpVZESBud4x8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9FU9tbMFRdXeRFQC8

https://photos.app.goo.gl/91BZcZDL7VYM5i8EA

She's not letting me near her tummy at the moment I'll try again in a bit- she's getting stressed out


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## Poodlebeguiled

Well...it may be that she is nearing her time and that she'll be fine and is right on schedule. It's so hard when you don't know for sure when she was bred. Her behavior suggests to me that she is close...that something is happening. Did you get a thermometer? Or are you afraid she might bite you? I just don't know enough about this as far as dogs go to be of any help. I know that when I was close to having my babies, I was nasty to the doctor for no real reason...very agitated. And I do recall, although it's been a long time, that the movement slowed way down and even ceased when the baby was in the birth canal. It's just too bad that the vet didn't suggest that blood test so at least you'd know if she's pregnant or not. But maybe it's one of those things that is astronomically expensive or maybe some other reason. It's probably not good for us to jump to conclusions about the vets' abilities. But it wouldn't hurt to ask and dig for some kind of reassuring answers. Lots of luck to you and Bella and the babies if there are some. And yes, Bella's welfare must come first. :angel:


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Well...it may be that she is nearing her time and that she'll be fine and is right on schedule. It's so hard when you don't know for sure when she was bred. Her behavior suggests to me that she is close...that something is happening. Did you get a thermometer? Or are you afraid she might bite you? I just don't know enough about this as far as dogs go to be of any help. I know that when I was close to having my babies, I was nasty to the doctor for no real reason...very agitated. And I do recall, although it's been a long time, that the movement slowed way down and even ceased when the baby was in the birth canal. It's just too bad that the vet didn't suggest that blood test so at least you'd know if she's pregnant or not. But maybe it's one of those things that is astronomically expensive or maybe some other reason. It's probably not good for us to jump to conclusions about the vets' abilities. But it wouldn't hurt to ask and dig for some kind of reassuring answers. Lots of luck to you and Bella and the babies if there are some. And yes, Bella's welfare must come first. :angel:


You think so? The vet has me questioning everything! 

As I've mention above, I live in the middle of no where and can't find a thermometer suitable so I've ordered one off the internet and still waiting!!! It's infuriating!!!


----------



## Engel

My Bella looks A LOT like Vita's Bella before she popped if that's any help!


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## Dechi

Engel said:


> https://photos.app.goo.gl/pqA5rYpVZESBud4x8
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/9FU9tbMFRdXeRFQC8
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/91BZcZDL7VYM5i8EA
> 
> She's not letting me near her tummy at the moment I'll try again in a bit- she's getting stressed out


She doesn’t look pregnant to me but I’m used to seeing shaved bellies. Did you plan on shaving the belly to make it easier on the pups and more hygienic ?

I had to install google photos to see your pictures. Is there anyway you can use a hosting website ? We could see the photos without even having to click and install software.


----------



## Engel

Dechi said:


> She doesn’t look pregnant to me but I’m used to seeing shaved bellies. Did you plan on shaving the belly to make it easier on the pups and more hygienic ?
> 
> I had to install google photos to see your pictures. Is there anyway you can use a hosting website ? We could see the photos without even having to click and install software.


Her belly is shaved I made a point of that specifically for that reason :/
When she's calmed down I'll take some more photos and I'll upload them in a way that's easiest for you guys. 
(Didn't realise, sorry)


----------



## Engel

This any better?


----------



## MaizieFrosty

Belly doesn't look big enough to be preggers, but with those nipples, my guess is false pregnancy.


----------



## Engel

MaizieFrosty said:


> Belly doesn't look big enough to be preggers, but with those nipples, my guess is false pregnancy.


Potentially. What keeps playing on my mind was that there was a puppy like shape on the scan although the vet couldn't find it again afterwards. Also, I can see and feel movement within the abdomen. I've compared what I have seen with a video of puppies kicking off youtube and it's the exact same! In addition to this, in her last 2 pregnancies, she didn't show and went on to have 4 pups per litter.


I honestly don't know. If you have a look at Vita's images of her dog while pregnant, my Bella is exactly the same.


----------



## jojogal001

It’s really hard to tell how big her belly is in that pic. Have you noticed her sides are further out? If she only has 1 pup in there the belly doesn’t have to be that big. Penny was, but she had 5. That’s a lot of pups for an 8 lb dog. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dechi

Engel said:


> View attachment 447741
> 
> 
> This any better?


Yes, thanks ! I agree it doesn’t look very big. Do you know if she was bred back to back the first times ?


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> It’s really hard to tell how big her belly is in that pic. Have you noticed her sides are further out? If she only has 1 pup in there the belly doesn’t have to be that big. Penny was, but she had 5. That’s a lot of pups for an 8 lb dog.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes her sides are a lot further out.
Look on Vita's thread where they talk about their Bella's pregnancy. You'll find a photo in there with the dog in the sink. My Bella's exactly the same as that.


----------



## Rose n Poos

If it is pregnancy, and it is just one or two pups, they can grow too large to birth normally. This is not so unusual for toys, and can put them at all a higher risk.


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Yes, thanks ! I agree it doesn’t look very big. Do you know if she was bred back to back the first times ?


I don't know 100% but I'm pretty sure she had 1 litter, had a heat and then the second litter. Not sure whether its been 1 or 2 heats since last litter. TBH I think she was got rid of because of the potential pregnancy but can't say for certain :/

Also, compared to how she was last week, she's HUGE. She also started showing small signs of pregnancy 2 weeks after we got her. I think phantoms start 6 weeks after heat so I don't know what's going on...


----------



## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> If it is pregnancy, and it is just one or two pups, they can grow too large to birth normally. This is not so unusual for toys, and can put them at all a higher risk.


Could be...I know I saw at least 1 maybe 2 puppy like things on the scan but not sure as the vet gave up when she couldn't find it again -.- 

If there's any signs of problems I'm on the phone to the vets ASAP!


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## Poodlebeguiled

I was browsing around and ran into this. It may be of some help to you. ((hugs)) I know you must be pretty stressed by this time. It is worrisome when your Bella doesn't seem to feel good but maybe that's normal. I do not know. I haven't read through this whole thing either. But it looks good.

Poodle Pregnancy | Poodle Information Center


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## jojogal001

Engel, I am so sorry you’re going through all of this, especially with more posts about what could go wrong. You must be a nervous wreck, and I really feel for you. I wish there were more we all could do to set your mind at ease, rather than adding fear into the mix.

Hang tough and just know it will all work out soon. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Poodlebeguiled

jojogal001 said:


> Engel, I am so sorry you’re going through all of this, especially with more posts about what could go wrong. You must be a nervous wreck, and I really feel for you. I wish there were more we all could do to set your mind at ease, rather than adding fear into the mix.
> 
> Hang tough and just know it will all work out soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You're so right Jojogal. It could be that the babies need more baking time and that everything is perfectly normal. I just wish the vets were more helpful. But maybe that link above will shed some light. It looks pretty good at first glance.


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Yes her sides are a lot further out.
> 
> Look on Vita's thread where they talk about their Bella's pregnancy. You'll find a photo in there with the dog in the sink. My Bella's exactly the same as that.




I did look in that thread and saw a few pics, including the one if her in the sink. So while her dog wasn’t THAT big, her dog was pregnant and your Bella looks like it too. I always hold out hope for the happy ending.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> I did look in that thread and saw a few pics, including the one if her in the sink. So while her dog wasn’t THAT big, her dog was pregnant and your Bella looks like it too. I always hold out hope for the happy ending.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I know that's why im not convinced that the scan is 100% right. I can still feel movement. Well I'll just have to watch and wait.


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> You're so right Jojogal. It could be that the babies need more baking time and that everything is perfectly normal. I just wish the vets were more helpful. But maybe that link above will shed some light. It looks pretty good at first glance.


Maybe. I know for a fact she's more than 52 days as that's the length of time I've had her. I've still got whelping stuff coming just incase and if I don't need to use it, parts of it can go into the first aid box.


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## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I was browsing around and ran into this. It may be of some help to you. ((hugs)) I know you must be pretty stressed by this time. It is worrisome when your Bella doesn't seem to feel good but maybe that's normal. I do not know. I haven't read through this whole thing either. But it looks good.
> 
> Poodle Pregnancy | Poodle Information Center


Thank you and it has a lot of useful information. Some may argue that some of the 'symptoms' could also describe phantom pregnancies especially without a scan or x-ray to back it up. I suppose I'll wait and see. 

Yes I am quite stressed as I had it all planned in my head; what I needed to get how much it'd cost, where to get things from and now after 2 inconclusive scans it's too late because by the time it gets here she would have had the pups-if theres any there.

The vet checked her over. No sign of illness or infection so she's otherwise a healthy dog. Vet wasn't sure if there was something on the scan as Bella was very stressed and wouldn't keep still and tried to bite the nurse so after 15 minutes of struggling the vet gave up. However, she did say that with her symptoms she does sound like a pregnant dog but with no image to confirm that, she's not sure. Said that I "might be feeding a phantom which makes it last longer'. except this 'phantom started the week after we got her (she would have been roughly 2-3 weeks if she's pregnant) up until now (I've had her 52 days) so work that out. Also, I upped her feed only last week but figured it was because she was hungry and only put a whelping box together 4 days ago as she was showing signs of potentially getting ready to whelp (as you guys know). I don't even know anymore.


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## Mufar42

Well at least you know she is healthy, you have a whelping box, she knows where it is so if there are puppies you should know by day 63-64. Either way we will know soon.


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## Engel

Mufar42 said:


> Well at least you know she is healthy, you have a whelping box, she knows where it is so if there are puppies you should know by day 63-64. Either way we will know soon.


That's the only beneficial thing that came out of yesterday, knowing that she's in good health and hopefully we will. 

I'll update you folks if/when things progress.


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## fjm

The other reassuring thing is that you know that she has whelped before without problems, and she will know what she is doing if she does turn out to be pregnant. We are all watching and waiting with you - I don't know whether you will be more relieved or disappointed now if it turns out to be a phantom. A huge relief in one way, that possible problems and complications are avoided, but a disappointment too when you have got ready for puppies in the home.


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## Engel

fjm said:


> The other reassuring thing is that you know that she has whelped before without problems, and she will know what she is doing if she does turn out to be pregnant. We are all watching and waiting with you - I don't know whether you will be more relieved or disappointed now if it turns out to be a phantom. A huge relief in one way, that possible problems and complications are avoided, but a disappointment too when you have got ready for puppies in the home.


What'll be will be. I can't change it now and it is a relief knowing that if she is she'll know what she's doing. If she's not then oh well, one less thing to worry about. I've already told the vets that I want her spayed ASAP-they said May...again...


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Engel, I am so sorry you’re going through all of this, especially with more posts about what could go wrong. You must be a nervous wreck, and I really feel for you. I wish there were more we all could do to set your mind at ease, rather than adding fear into the mix.
> 
> Hang tough and just know it will all work out soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


It is a bit worrisome but to be honest I'd rather know things that could go wrong. I think it would be naïve of me to think that just because she went through her last 2 pregnancies fine doesn't necessarily mean this one will too. I'd rather be armed with knowledge than walk into it blindly. So while the thought of something going really wrong scares me to death, it's something that I need to be aware of as much as I hate it.


One the lines of things going wrong, if she is pregnant, what signs does the dam show when something is going wrong?
I know that if she's pushing for 1hr+ then I need to get help; but other than that what do I look out for???


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Does that article not talk about what could go wrong and what to look for? Call your vet. I'd also consider getting an -ray so you can see definitively and see how the babies, if there are some...are positioned. OR....ask about that blood test for the hormone, relaxin. That test doesn't lie. It will not be present if she's not pregnant. A phantom pregnancy will not fool this test. I don't understand why that or an ex-ray has not been done. Oh well...Hopefully, all will go smoothly.


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## jojogal001

Well, I didn’t have trouble except for the first one. The X-ray showed he was already heading into the birth canal, but she got him out ok. Just didn’t touch him. But you will see
The contraction n pushing the pup out. It will be like waves coming from the rib cage down her sides to get the puppies out. I don’t think I’d wait an hour if the pup doesn’t come. Maybe closer to 30 minutes. If she won’t touch the puppy and doesn’t break the sack call your vet immediately. Sometimes they can describe what to do to get the pup out and get its lungs clear of fluid so it can begin to breathe. 

If she doesn’t put the pup on the teat after 10 minutes of cleaning it, do it yourself if she’ll let you. But I’m pretty sure that won’t happen as she has had litters before.

If she has a hard time delivering and her breathing is really heavy, you can look at her tongue to make sure it is still pink. If not, then she is not getting enough oxygen. 

And keep in mind that there can be up to a 24 hr stretch between puppies.Penny had an a 3 hrs between the first 3 pups and then the other 2. I wish you knew how many pups there are so you’d know when it was over. 

That’s about all I know. I’m hoping an experienced breeder will chime in on this and give you better signs of distress. 

Still praying for you (everyday). And Bella of course! I guess I should for the bet too for wisdom and a willingness to help. 


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## Poodlebeguiled

I remember when my kids were little we wound up with a cat that was pregnant. When she was getting ready to deliver, we somehow just knew. I don't remember consulting a vet or anything...maybe my mother. It's been so long. Anyhow, I think we took a towel and helped the mom. rubbed that towel over the kitten's face to break that sac fast and used a bulb syringe very gently to get the fluid out if we felt it needed that. But mostly the mother licked them. We just sort of helped to hurry and get them breathing if a couple were coming out without too much time between and we thought she needed a little assistance. 

I agree with not waiting too long if she doesn't have the pup because it would take you time to get to the vet's. They could go breach. Or get the vet on the phone...or a vet tech to help you. Do you have any neighbors, even if they're some distance away that may have had animals that had babies that would help you?


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## jojogal001

Elgen, I did miss one thing. In your pic I saw blankets in the whelping box? You might want to rethink that as puppies can get caught in a fold and smother. It can be soft, but should be pretty flat. If you want to use the blankets and then change out to something safer after delivery, just keep an eagle eye on them during delivery. And you will want to change the bedding after as it will be a mess. You might want to have 2 changes ready in case she has another when you think she might be done. 


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## fjm

The contractions can be very obvious, or hardly more than a tremble and very difficult to spot, so if in doubt I would call your vet.


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## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Does that article not talk about what could go wrong and what to look for? Call your vet. I'd also consider getting an -ray so you can see definitively and see how the babies, if there are some...are positioned. OR....ask about that blood test for the hormone, relaxin. That test doesn't lie. It will not be present if she's not pregnant. A phantom pregnancy will not fool this test. I don't understand why that or an ex-ray has not been done. Oh well...Hopefully, all will go smoothly.


It did touch upon some issues which could arise 

Problems During Pregnancy
Signs of complications in which the veterinarian should be contacted asap include:
Your Poodle has been pregnant for more than 65 days
Labour is unproductive after 24 hours
The dam is experiencing strong contractions for more than 30 minutes without producing a puppy
More than 60 minutes has passed and the next puppy has not been pushed out.
There is a foul smelling fluid discharge
Excessive bleeding
Excessive vomiting
Extreme lethargy (most dam spring back amazingly well after giving birth)
Straining when having bowel movements or diarrhoea

To me these were somewhat obvious signs but I was just wondering what other signs to look for as these are probably the most common.

We don't have x-ray for people here let alone dogs 
Also, any lab tests need to be sent off. Knowing my luck if she is pregnant she'll whelp before the results come back :/


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Well, I didn’t have trouble except for the first one. The X-ray showed he was already heading into the birth canal, but she got him out ok. Just didn’t touch him. But you will see
> The contraction n pushing the pup out. It will be like waves coming from the rib cage down her sides to get the puppies out. I don’t think I’d wait an hour if the pup doesn’t come. Maybe closer to 30 minutes. If she won’t touch the puppy and doesn’t break the sack call your vet immediately. Sometimes they can describe what to do to get the pup out and get its lungs clear of fluid so it can begin to breathe.
> 
> If she doesn’t put the pup on the teat after 10 minutes of cleaning it, do it yourself if she’ll let you. But I’m pretty sure that won’t happen as she has had litters before.
> 
> If she has a hard time delivering and her breathing is really heavy, you can look at her tongue to make sure it is still pink. If not, then she is not getting enough oxygen.
> 
> And keep in mind that there can be up to a 24 hr stretch between puppies.Penny had an a 3 hrs between the first 3 pups and then the other 2. I wish you knew how many pups there are so you’d know when it was over.
> 
> That’s about all I know. I’m hoping an experienced breeder will chime in on this and give you better signs of distress.
> 
> Still praying for you (everyday). And Bella of course! I guess I should for the bet too for wisdom and a willingness to help.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thank you. My only worry is that she's only got 1-2 pups; I don't how big they are. I'm almost 100% sure I saw at least 1 on the scan but we all know how that went...My second worry is that I'm under-prepared.


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I remember when my kids were little we wound up with a cat that was pregnant. When she was getting ready to deliver, we somehow just knew. I don't remember consulting a vet or anything...maybe my mother. It's been so long. Anyhow, I think we took a towel and helped the mom. rubbed that towel over the kitten's face to break that sac fast and used a bulb syringe very gently to get the fluid out if we felt it needed that. But mostly the mother licked them. We just sort of helped to hurry and get them breathing if a couple were coming out without too much time between and we thought she needed a little assistance.
> 
> I agree with not waiting too long if she doesn't have the pup because it would take you time to get to the vet's. They could go breach. Or get the vet on the phone...or a vet tech to help you. Do you have any neighbors, even if they're some distance away that may have had animals that had babies that would help you?


I don't know a single person who has! I know of people who have many years ago


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## Engel

fjm said:


> The contractions can be very obvious, or hardly more than a tremble and very difficult to spot, so if in doubt I would call your vet.


Oh don't worry I will! They probably wont be much help though :sad:


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## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Thank you. My only worry is that she's only got 1-2 pups; I don't how big they are. I'm almost 100% sure I saw at least 1 on the scan but we all know how that went...My second worry is that I'm under-prepared.




Hopefully, as she has already had 2 putters, it should happen Uneventfully. Just watch her closely and do what you’ve been doing. It’s good that all the males are her size or smaller, and can be a little reassuring that the babies should be of appropriate size. 

If you and she already have a good bond, she may come and get you when it’s time. Definitely the best scenario. Once Penny came for me, she still had about 6 hours before whelping. And if I dared to doze off, she woke me with an urgency. 

Keep us updated. I think a lot of us are right there with you, and nervous nellies too!


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Elgen, I did miss one thing. In your pic I saw blankets in the whelping box? You might want to rethink that as puppies can get caught in a fold and smother. It can be soft, but should be pretty flat. If you want to use the blankets and then change out to something safer after delivery, just keep an eagle eye on them during delivery. And you will want to change the bedding after as it will be a mess. You might want to have 2 changes ready in case she has another when you think she might be done.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know which image you are referring to. All the ones I've seen while going back through this thread were ones when she was on the rug or sofa or my lap.

I will keep that in mind though. Currently in the whelping box I have a layer or two of puppy pads which I can change and dispose of. The blanket things in there are only for pre-whelp and the actual birth. They are old and rugged and ideally need to be thrown out anyway hence why I thought about using them for the potential birth. :smile:


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## jojogal001

Engel said:


> I don't know which image you are referring to. All the ones I've seen while going back through this thread were ones when she was on the rug or sofa or my lap.
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep that in mind though. Currently in the whelping box I have a layer or two of puppy pads which I can change and dispose of. The blanket things in there are only for pre-whelp and the actual birth. They are old and rugged and ideally need to be thrown out anyway hence why I thought about using them for the potential birth. :smile:




I’m sorry, I may be thinking of another thread!


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## Rose n Poos

Engel said:


> It did touch upon some issues which could arise
> 
> Problems During Pregnancy
> Signs of complications in which the veterinarian should be contacted asap include:
> Your Poodle has been pregnant for more than 65 days
> Labour is unproductive after 24 hours
> The dam is experiencing strong contractions for more than 30 minutes without producing a puppy
> More than 60 minutes has passed and the next puppy has not been pushed out.
> There is a foul smelling fluid discharge
> Excessive bleeding
> Excessive vomiting
> Extreme lethargy (most dam spring back amazingly well after giving birth)
> Straining when having bowel movements or diarrhoea
> 
> To me these were somewhat obvious signs but I was just wondering what other signs to look for as these are probably the most common.
> 
> We don't have x-ray for people here let alone dogs
> Also, any lab tests need to be sent off. Knowing my luck if she is pregnant she'll whelp before the results come back :/


This is a link to the rest of the info and articles that I'd copied some posts back . There are specifics mentioned in this particular link. The other articles linked below, some are truly sad and scary, some are more what to do if and when (call the vet coming up most often). 

I don't mean to scare you, but to help you prepare. 

https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelping.htm


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## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a link to the rest of the info and articles that I'd copied some posts back . There are specifics mentioned in this particular link. The other articles linked below, some are truly sad and scary, some are more what to do if and when (call the vet coming up most often).
> 
> I don't mean to scare you, but to help you prepare.
> 
> https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelping.htm


Thank you it's muchly appreciated!!


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## jojogal001

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a link to the rest of the info and articles that I'd copied some posts back . There are specifics mentioned in this particular link. The other articles linked below, some are truly sad and scary, some are more what to do if and when (call the vet coming up most often).
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean to scare you, but to help you prepare.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelping.htm




Very good article! As there are a few things with explicit instructions, I would cut and paste them on a document for easy access in the heat of the moment. As many times you read it, if a problem arises, and you are kind of panicked, you’ll never remember what the article said. 

There are so many great points in there. I love the fact it walks you through step by step in a difficult situation. 


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Very good article! As there are a few things with explicit instructions, I would cut and paste them on a document for easy access in the heat of the moment. As many times you read it, if a problem arises, and you are kind of panicked, you’ll never remember what the article said.
> 
> There are so many great points in there. I love the fact it walks you through step by step in a difficult situation.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is a very good article! I've saved it both on my phone and laptop just in case :smile:


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## Engel

Took this footage tonight from my not pregnant dog which could be pregnant or having a phantom...thoughts??

https://youtu.be/PKYuQ0oEQcM 

(Hope the link works).

(EDIT: look around bottom right nipple and you'll see what I mean)


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## MaizieFrosty

I'm still guessing phantom.


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## MerrysSarah

I see more then just the normal breathing movement in the new video. I've never been around a pregnant dog, but I have had 3 human babies that liked to do acrobatics! I'll be very interested to see if she has puppies! Hopefully you'll know soon one way or another

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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## Engel

MerrysSarah said:


> I see more then just the normal breathing movement in the new video. I've never been around a pregnant dog, but I have had 3 human babies that liked to do acrobatics! I'll be very interested to see if she has puppies! Hopefully you'll know soon one way or another
> 
> Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


Thank you I've felt like I'm going crazy as I can see and feel all of this and the vet can't?!


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## Engel

MaizieFrosty said:


> I'm still guessing phantom.


Fair enough...but what's moving??


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## MaizieFrosty

Okay, now that I watch it on the computer vs. phone I can see some movement that looks like more than typical belly movement...oh, the suspense! Haha


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## Engel

MaizieFrosty said:


> Okay, now that I watch it on the computer vs. phone I can see some movement that looks like more than typical belly movement...oh, the suspense! Haha



LOL I should have put look around the bottom right nipple as well; never mind. At least I'm not the only one that can see it though..


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## Dechi

Engel said:


> Took this footage tonight from my not pregnant dog which could be pregnant or having a phantom...thoughts??
> 
> https://youtu.be/PKYuQ0oEQcM
> 
> (Hope the link works).
> 
> (EDIT: look around bottom right nipple and you'll see what I mean)


It’s definitely moving but it’s in a weird way I find. Usually babies will kick, so you see a sudden movement, then it stops. Then another, stops again. And so forth. 

On your dog, it seems like it’s a constant movement, as if something was rocking inside her belly. Weird...

Did you touch it ? What does it feel like ?


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## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Took this footage tonight from my not pregnant dog which could be pregnant or having a phantom...thoughts??
> 
> https://youtu.be/PKYuQ0oEQcM
> 
> (Hope the link works).
> 
> (EDIT: look around bottom right nipple and you'll see what I mean)




I, too, see movement. I don’t thinks it’s uncommon for puppies to move and not so muck kick in mom’s belly. Penny’s abdomen moved a lot and it would go on for a while. It’s just not the same as a human baby. 

So no, you’re not the only one who sees it, as others say they see it too. 

Keeping fingers crossed!


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Engel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Took this footage tonight from my not pregnant dog which could be pregnant or having a phantom...thoughts??
> 
> https://youtu.be/PKYuQ0oEQcM
> 
> (Hope the link works).
> 
> (EDIT: look around bottom right nipple and you'll see what I mean)
> 
> 
> 
> It’s definitely moving but it’s in a weird way I find. Usually babies will kick, so you see a sudden movement, then it stops. Then another, stops again. And so forth.
> 
> On your dog, it seems like it’s a constant movement, as if something was rocking inside her belly. Weird...
> 
> Did you touch it ? What does it feel like ?
Click to expand...

It goes through bouts of activity. I did touch it and it moves under my hand. It does 'kick' so to speak. You can see a blob thing moving in the abdomen infact I have seen 2-3 blobs moving independently in different parts of the abdomen.


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## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Engel said:
> 
> 
> 
> Took this footage tonight from my not pregnant dog which could be pregnant or having a phantom...thoughts??
> 
> https://youtu.be/PKYuQ0oEQcM
> 
> (Hope the link works).
> 
> (EDIT: look around bottom right nipple and you'll see what I mean)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I, too, see movement. I don’t thinks it’s uncommon for puppies to move and not so muck kick in mom’s belly. Penny’s abdomen moved a lot and it would go on for a while. It’s just not the same as a human baby.
> 
> So no, you’re not the only one who sees it, as others say they see it too.
> 
> Keeping fingers crossed!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Thank you.


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## Dechi

Then she’s definitely expecting !

Congrats !


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## Dogs4Life

I definitely see movement! Oh, the suspense...I can't wait to see pictures of the pups!


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## Ghost

I keep coming back to this and reading all of it, and the updates. It’s driving me crazy the not knowing - I keep expecting “the update” lol
As to the newest video... I see the movement you’re talking about but I’m also wondering if it could just be twitches triggered by a false pregnancy? Sort of like mini contractions? I kept having weird contractions after I gave birth to my daughter and even now I get weird twitches sometimes - and she’s 7! 
Since I can’t see any actual bulging (is that just me?) I’m wondering if it could just be twitches? 

Can you get a picture of her standing and show any belly bulge? 

I’m glad you have had this extra time to get ready as a just in case


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

That definitely looks like a puppy moving. At this stage, when you see that movement, if you put your fingers there, you should be able to makes out the head and the bum. If you are feeling hard blobs where there is movement, that is heads.

There are very small windows of opportunity to palpate and to ultrasound. On the wrong days, they are worthless. An xray would be definitive at this point, but if it were me, I would not bother. She is not going to have a huge litter if she is pregnant, so I'd be ready without going over the top- tums and vanilla ice cream for her, pee pads, blankets, scissors, hemostats, a bulb syringe, a food scale, and milk replacer and a bottle with a proper puppy nipple. I keep liver on hand to make liver water to feed the pups if they fail at all, and corn syrup to put a bit on the tongue if they are lazy nursers and need a boost. 

Truth is, for the first couple of weeks, if she is a decent Mom, she does pretty much everything. So you just need an emergency supply of things for the birth, then have time to gather more of what you will need along the way.

My guess is she is pregnant. It was the video that did it.

Best of luck!!


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## MollyMuiMa

Just checking in and saw the latest video and all I gotta say is get ready for some cute puppies in your house! LOL! Any day now! I did notice that when my own dogs in the past were pregnant, that much like humans, the babies 'dropped' lower into the pelvis a day or so before delivery................Good Luck and have a healthy whelp!


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## jojogal001

Any news yet? It’s funny how I wake up and one of the first things I do is check here to see if there are puppies yet [emoji23]. 


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## Poodlebeguiled

Thank you so much Cherie for your expertise! I'm sure that made a world of difference to Engel and to those puppies and mama. :adore:

Engel. I just hope you don't call those darling puppies blobs anymore! :hmpf: 
:lol:


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## Engel

Dogs4Life said:


> I definitely see movement! Oh, the suspense...I can't wait to see pictures of the pups!


The first sign of anything and I will be on here updating you guys!!


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## Engel

Dechi said:


> Then she’s definitely expecting !
> 
> Congrats !


It seems that way, thank you


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## Ghost

Okay same here as to watching on the computer vs phone. I definitely see those little bulgey movements much clearer now! I wish it had shown up on the scan for you!! It would be so good to know how many she’s expecting, so you know what to be ready for. I’m on pins and needles waiting!


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## Engel

Ghost said:


> I keep coming back to this and reading all of it, and the updates. It’s driving me crazy the not knowing - I keep expecting “the update” lol
> As to the newest video... I see the movement you’re talking about but I’m also wondering if it could just be twitches triggered by a false pregnancy? Sort of like mini contractions? I kept having weird contractions after I gave birth to my daughter and even now I get weird twitches sometimes - and she’s 7!
> Since I can’t see any actual bulging (is that just me?) I’m wondering if it could just be twitches?
> 
> Can you get a picture of her standing and show any belly bulge?
> 
> I’m glad you have had this extra time to get ready as a just in case


Lol, I'll post when things start happening! It's driving me crazy too! I didn't know there could be contraction like things with a false pregnancy. 
When I put my hand over said area it moves but not like a contraction. It would surely happen on both sides of the abdomen at the same time? There's no squeeze or push it's just moving. Also, that area is normally flat-ish so the moving thing is bulging out slightly. To look at her stood- she doesn't look big but she is an active dog so maybe she's carrying them high up. From what I've read it's not unusual for active dogs to be pregnant and not look big as they are more likely to carry them high up. Don't know how true that is though. I'm glad too, I would have been a wreck if she started whelping and I had nothing!!!


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## jojogal001

Wow Engel. I think I am dyslexic. I’ve been calling you Elgen right? Lol. So it’s either that or just multiple senior moments!


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## Engel

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> That definitely looks like a puppy moving. At this stage, when you see that movement, if you put your fingers there, you should be able to makes out the head and the bum. If you are feeling hard blobs where there is movement, that is heads.
> 
> There are very small windows of opportunity to palpate and to ultrasound. On the wrong days, they are worthless. An xray would be definitive at this point, but if it were me, I would not bother. She is not going to have a huge litter if she is pregnant, so I'd be ready without going over the top- tums and vanilla ice cream for her, pee pads, blankets, scissors, hemostats, a bulb syringe, a food scale, and milk replacer and a bottle with a proper puppy nipple. I keep liver on hand to make liver water to feed the pups if they fail at all, and corn syrup to put a bit on the tongue if they are lazy nursers and need a boost.
> 
> Truth is, for the first couple of weeks, if she is a decent Mom, she does pretty much everything. So you just need an emergency supply of things for the birth, then have time to gather more of what you will need along the way.
> 
> My guess is she is pregnant. It was the video that did it.
> 
> Best of luck!!


Well sometimes I can sort of make out a head and a bum and sometimes its just a head (hard blob) but I guess it depends on position.

Why didn't someone tell me this before I went on my adventure of 4 vets Lol. I've had more than 1 vet palpate and they said they couldn't feel nothing and I've had 2 scans and they were both inconclusive-said they saw fluid and NO pyometra and she's healthy otherwise. 

I don't know if the equipment I have is of any use?
- Gloves - Vaseline - thermometer (finally!) - digital scales -Antibacterial wipes suitable for surfaces and equipment - disinfecting spray formulated for animals - Iodine - scissors - haemostat - unwaxed dental floss - loads of pee pads and blankets/ towels - aspiration bulb sterilised with EO gas - stethoscope - ribbons - 

I've also made a puppy weight chart to record their weights. A temp record chart to record mums temp. Also a birth record (stating things like birth weight, time born, features, position, placenta etc)


----------



## glorybeecosta

I am here checking again as well most exciting thread, and I know nothing about giving birth. After reading what goes on with a dog, god help a woman, LOL


----------



## Engel

Ghost said:


> Okay same here as to watching on the computer vs phone. I definitely see those little bulgey movements much clearer now! I wish it had shown up on the scan for you!! It would be so good to know how many she’s expecting, so you know what to be ready for. I’m on pins and needles waiting!


Well I guess if I touch her tummy and feel no hard 'blobs' that may work...also I will have them into the vets the same day if possible to check everyone over. In her previous litters she's had 4 in each. She's not huge though so maybe 2? possibly 3 max? But I've prepared for more just in case we do have a surprise...


----------



## Engel

glorybeecosta said:


> I am here checking again as well most exciting thread, and I know nothing about giving birth. After reading what goes on with a dog, god help a woman, LOL


Really? Most exciting thread? Considering I'm normally called a boring person it's strange to hear LOL :laugh: I will posting updates as and when things happen...exciting times :smile:


----------



## Engel

MollyMuiMa said:


> Just checking in and saw the latest video and all I gotta say is get ready for some cute puppies in your house! LOL! Any day now! I did notice that when my own dogs in the past were pregnant, that much like humans, the babies 'dropped' lower into the pelvis a day or so before delivery................Good Luck and have a healthy whelp!


We are ready! Still a tad nervous but I think it's because it's something new to me. Thank you! I'll keep you guys updated!!! :smile:


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Any news yet? It’s funny how I wake up and one of the first things I do is check here to see if there are puppies yet .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha good morning/afternoon! No nothing yet but have just got a thermometer to check her temp. Only got 1 reading so far. 37.2C (98.96F) if anyone's curious


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Thank you so much Cherie for your expertise! I'm sure that made a world of difference to Engel and to those puppies and mama. :adore:
> 
> Engel. I just hope you don't call those darling puppies blobs anymore! :hmpf:
> :lol:


I'm extremely grateful for their expertise...blobs hmmmm even when they're born I'll probably call them blob 1 and blob 2. Either that or Invisible puppy 1 and invisible puppy 2 :lol: :laugh:


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Wow Engel. I think I am dyslexic. I’ve been calling you Elgen right? Lol. So it’s either that or just multiple senior moments!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha don't worry about it. All the letters were there just in a different order. :lol:


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Haha good morning/afternoon! No nothing yet but have just got a thermometer to check her temp. Only got 1 reading so far. 37.2C (98.96F) if anyone's curious




When her temp starts dropping please keep it update. We’re all watching and waiting with you!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MaizieFrosty

That is a slight drop for a dog, no?


----------



## MaizieFrosty

Engel said:


> Really? Most exciting thread? Considering I'm normally called a boring person it's strange to hear LOL :laugh: I will posting updates as and when things happen...exciting times :smile:


Haha, that's funny. You have a very captivated audience here! This thread is staying right at the top.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> When her temp starts dropping please keep it update. We’re all watching and waiting with you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm keeping her temp all logged so as soon as it drops I'll update you guys!!


----------



## Engel

MaizieFrosty said:


> That is a slight drop for a dog, no?


Well I'm not sure. I'll be taking her temp again within the next 1-2 hours. Problem is I don't know what her "normal" is yet. 

Quick question though, once it drops to say labour may start with the next 24 hours, does it continue to drop, stay the same or rise soon after?


----------



## asuk

Rose n Poos said:


> This is a link to the rest of the info and articles that I'd copied some posts back . There are specifics mentioned in this particular link. The other articles linked below, some are truly sad and scary, some are more what to do if and when (call the vet coming up most often).
> 
> I don't mean to scare you, but to help you prepare.
> 
> https://www.dogbreedinfo.com/whelping.htm


Engel, I am not sure if you read that website posted cover to cover...but holy crap! Tons of info. Apart from temp drops, it shows when the vulva is swollen aka ready to deliver soon, mucus plug shedding,etc. I don’t plan to breed dogs ever...but it was an informative and fascinating read on that website.

It does look like a pup is moving in her belly. I wish you and Bella best of luck and I too check this thread for puppies update..lol


----------



## Engel

MaizieFrosty said:


> Haha, that's funny. You have a very captivated audience here! This thread is staying right at the top.


Yes I did notice it was staying near the top and I'm mind-blown! :wow:


----------



## Engel

asuk said:


> Engel, I am not sure if you read that website posted cover to cover...but holy crap! Tons of info. Apart from temp drops, it shows when the vulva is swollen aka ready to deliver soon, mucus plug shedding,etc. I don’t plan to breed dogs ever...but it was an informative and fascinating read on that website.
> 
> It does look like a pup is moving in her belly. I wish you and Bella best of luck and I too check this thread for puppies update..lol


It does and I redid her temp it's now 37.9C (100.22F) so its gone up. I'm going to re-read that web-page now. Thanks for bringing it back up :smile:


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Well I'm not sure. I'll be taking her temp again within the next 1-2 hours. Problem is I don't know what her "normal" is yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question though, once it drops to say labour may start with the next 24 hours, does it continue to drop, stay the same or rise soon after?




It seems like a drop to me. Most of my dogs have always been around the 100 a 101.5 range. So Engel, (I got it right I think! ) keep up with the good work!

I could be wrong, but I don’t think it continues to drop. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jojogal001

jojogal001 said:


> It seems like a drop to me. Most of my dogs have always been around the 100 a 101.5 range. So Engel, (I got it right I think! ) keep up with the good work!
> 
> I could be wrong, but I don’t think it continues to drop.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Well if the vet was right about it being closer at 57 days, then you could have 2-4 days left. Get rest while you can. Once she goes into labor she won’t want you to leave her side, and you’ll want to be awake the whole time too! 

Remember to take care of yourself too  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Well if the vet was right about it being closer at 57 days, then you could have 2-4 days left. Get rest while you can. Once she goes into labor she won’t want you to leave her side, and you’ll want to be awake the whole time too!
> 
> Remember to take care of yourself too


That's the problem... I don't truly know when she was on heat, if I knew that I could judge it better :/ 

I know she's going to want be to be with her. It's surprising how much she trusts me after such a small amount of time...I was expecting it to take a lot longer to build her trust but it's like we've know each other forever! (And I definitely will want to be awake the whole time :lol

As the due date is getting closer I'm sleeping downstairs with all the whelping stuff in the same room as me and Bella.

She's managed a can of food today albeit in many small meals. She still seems happy in herself a little more sleepy but when she's awake she active. She managed to play fetch with my other dogs for 5-10 minutes before having to take a break...normally she's still going after 1hr. 

I'm still taking care of myself don't worry. My other dogs are really taking care of her. It's almost like they know....


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> That's the problem... I don't truly know when she was on heat, if I knew that I could judge it better :/
> 
> 
> 
> I know she's going to want be to be with her. It's surprising how much she trusts me after such a small amount of time...I was expecting it to take a lot longer to build her trust but it's like we've know each other forever! (And I definitely will want to be awake the whole time :lol
> 
> 
> 
> As the due date is getting closer I'm sleeping downstairs with all the whelping stuff in the same room as me and Bella.
> 
> 
> 
> She's managed a can of food today albeit in many small meals. She still seems happy in herself a little more sleepy but when she's awake she active. She managed to play fetch with my other dogs for 5-10 minutes before having to take a break...normally she's still going after 1hr.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still taking care of myself don't worry. My other dogs are really taking care of her. It's almost like they know....




That’s so sweet that you two bonded so quickly! It’s so nice when it happens that way. 

What are you going to do with your other dogs when she goes into labor? I’m suspecting she won’t want them around, especially after the pups are born. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> That’s so sweet that you two bonded so quickly! It’s so nice when it happens that way.
> 
> What are you going to do with your other dogs when she goes into labor? I’m suspecting she won’t want them around, especially after the pups are born.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know but still a surprise! 

Beau and Pebbles are crate trained and in a different room. They sleep in there at night anyway. They do have the run of the house and when its warmer we leave the door open so they can go back and forth to the garden-I'll just section off a room which is 'out of bounds' for them until they're able to be introduced.

Also Bella's temp has dropped down again.. this time to 37.1C (98.78F) I'll check it again in a hour or so to see if that's maintained or whether it goes back up again.


----------



## jojogal001

Wow. She might be on her way soon... how exciting!!! You’re being such a good daddy! 

That’s good about the other dogs. Sounds like you’re all prepared. 

Do you know Bella will eat the placenta? You might want to do a quick research on this. Some breeders take it away. But it gives them protein and energy to nurse the pups after a long labor and delivery. Plus it’s also their natural desire to keep things as clean as possible once the babies come. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Wow. She might be on her way soon... how exciting!!! You’re being such a good daddy!
> 
> That’s good about the other dogs. Sounds like you’re all prepared.
> 
> Do you know Bella will eat the placenta? You might want to do a quick research on this. Some breeders take it away. But it gives them protein and energy to nurse the pups after a long labor and delivery. Plus it’s also their natural desire to keep things as clean as possible once the babies come.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe. Also you assumed I'm male and that made me laugh :lol: Don't worry about it though. 

Fun fact. Engel is simply Angel but in German. (My actual name isn't angel btw)

I'm as prepared as I can be considering the circumstances. I am aware that she may eat the placenta but that's natural. If it's within her nature to eat it I'm not going to stop her- it doesn't bother me. As long as I know it is completely out BEFORE she eats it. I have read that eating too many placentas can upset the dogs stomach but I'm aware that varies from individual to individual.


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Maybe. Also you assumed I'm male and that made me laugh :lol: Don't worry about it though.
> 
> 
> 
> Fun fact. Engel is simply Angel but in German. (My actual name isn't angel btw)
> 
> 
> 
> I'm as prepared as I can be considering the circumstances. I am aware that she may eat the placenta but that's natural. If it's within her nature to eat it I'm not going to stop her- it doesn't bother me. As long as I know it is completely out BEFORE she eats it. I have read that eating too many placentas can upset the dogs stomach but I'm aware that varies from individual to individual.




Omg. I am so sorry! I kept wondering about a man with a toy girl and being so dedicated ! I don’t why why I assumed you are male, except for the fact I’ve been calling you “Elgen” (lol) which sounds male. My name is Jody and I get junk mail all the time addressed to Mr Jody ..... 

Thank you for correcting me. Honestly I’ve never known a man who is so sensitive about his dog. It kind of makes me feel better to know. 

Anyway, I know you are very prepared and I’m quite impressed with all you’ve done in this situation in the last few days. I think you’re amazing!

I continue to click in here as soon as you post. How about I fly over the pond and sit on baby watch with you? Lol. 

I was just wondering, also, if you’d taken her temp again. Inquiring minds want to know!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Omg. I am so sorry! I kept wondering about a man with a toy girl and being so dedicated ! I don’t why why I assumed you are male, except for the fact I’ve been calling you “Elgen” (lol) which sounds male. My name is Jody and I get junk mail all the time addressed to Mr Jody .....
> 
> Thank you for correcting me. Honestly I’ve never known a man who is so sensitive about his dog. It kind of makes me feel better to know.
> 
> Anyway, I know you are very prepared and I’m quite impressed with all you’ve done in this situation in the last few days. I think you’re amazing!
> 
> I continue to click in here as soon as you post. How about I fly over the pond and sit on baby watch with you? Lol.
> 
> I was just wondering, also, if you’d taken her temp again. Inquiring minds want to know!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL. Saying that both my brothers are INCREDIBLY sensitive when it comes to the dogs it's amazing to see. 0ne has communication issues and the other is very disabled; it's amazing how these dogs have managed to bring people out of their shell and help them grow. 

Thank you, I am trying my best considering. It makes me a tad emotional when people show recognition I honestly could cry (in a good way).

I have taken her temp again (almost a hour ago) and it's dropped to 37C (98.6). Will take it again in a bit and see what it's doing.


----------



## Engel

Engel said:


> LOL. Saying that both my brothers are INCREDIBLY sensitive when it comes to the dogs it's amazing to see. 0ne has communication issues and the other is very disabled; it's amazing how these dogs have managed to bring people out of their shell and help them grow.
> 
> Thank you, I am trying my best considering. It makes me a tad emotional when people show recognition I honestly could cry (in a good way).
> 
> I have taken her temp again (almost a hour ago) and it's dropped to 37C (98.6). Will take it again in a bit and see what it's doing.


It's crept up to 37.2C (98.96F) now


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> LOL. Saying that both my brothers are INCREDIBLY sensitive when it comes to the dogs it's amazing to see. 0ne has communication issues and the other is very disabled; it's amazing how these dogs have managed to bring people out of their shell and help them grow.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I am trying my best considering. It makes me a tad emotional when people show recognition I honestly could cry (in a good way).
> 
> 
> 
> I have taken her temp again (almost a hour ago) and it's dropped to 37C (98.6). Will take it again in a bit and see what it's doing.




Cool...maybe it OS getting close! I feel like I should the night off tomorrow, (I work the overnight shift) just in case the puppies are coming lol. But I am on the computer a lot so I can keep up. 

Keep us posted!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> It's crept up to 37.2C (98.96F) now




Well just keep checking. She’s still below the norm. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Well just keep checking. She’s still below the norm.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll leave her a couple of hours and see what it does then. 

She isn't showing any signs of going into labour though. She's been running about playing she's curled up sleeping now; she has been nesting a little bit but nothing major.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Cool...maybe it OS getting close! I feel like I should the night off tomorrow, (I work the overnight shift) just in case the puppies are coming lol. But I am on the computer a lot so I can keep up.
> 
> Keep us posted!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well even if you're not on the computer if they've arrived you'll have a lovely surprise when you log back on


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Well even if you're not on the computer if they've arrived you'll have a lovely surprise when you log back on




I am so looking forward to pics of the pups. I am burning up with puppy fever! But I have to wait over a year before I get my toy poodle puppy. So pics will have to do it for now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> I'll leave her a couple of hours and see what it does then.
> 
> 
> 
> She isn't showing any signs of going into labour though. She's been running about playing she's curled up sleeping now; she has been nesting a little bit but nothing major.




You know, when I think about it, Penny went into the nursery and stayed by herself about 6 hours before she went into labor. It’s cheesy, but worth watching for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> You know, when I think about it, Penny went into the nursery and stayed by herself about 6 hours before she went into labor. It’s cheesy, but worth watching for.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll keep an eye on her


----------



## Viking Queen

Remember the old song lyrics...."I am woman, hear me roar"?.....you've got this!!???

I'll be checking in again this evening...that will be the 4th time today for me....


----------



## Engel

Viking Queen said:


> Remember the old song lyrics...."I am woman, hear me roar"?.....you've got this!!???
> 
> I'll be checking in again this evening...that will be the 4th time today for me....


Oh wow didn't realise this would interest people this much :laugh:! In all seriousness now, everyone whose commented has helped me a lot; whether that be giving advice or just generally being understanding and supportive, I'm truly grateful. Will keep you updated.


----------



## Engel

*TEMP UPDATE

I've just taken Bella's temp again; it has dropped to 36.8C (98.2F)

It's now dropped a whole degree from this evening
*​


----------



## Dechi

Engel said:


> *TEMP UPDATE
> 
> I've just taken Bella's temp again; it has dropped to 36.8C (98.2F)
> *​


Ohhhhhhhh, they’re coming !


----------



## Rose n Poos

Sounds like this may be the home stretch. For those of us playing along at home 

"You will find her normal temperature around 99 to 101, and as soon as it starts to drop below 99 and continues to drop (now you take it every hour or two) you have about 12-24 hours from the start of the drop. When it bottoms out to 98 or 97.9, then you have about 2-12 hours."


----------



## Viking Queen

Yaaaaaay! :clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Engel

Dechi said:


> Ohhhhhhhh, they’re coming !


It seems that way. Bella's just sleeping at the moment while she can.

It's funny how I got the last of the whelping supplies today and tonight looks like she may whelp!


----------



## Dogs4Life

Hoping for a safe delivery!


----------



## jojogal001

Oh Engel I’m so shappy for you and Bella! I am praying for a fast, smooth and uneventful delivery!hopefully she’ll wake up panting... then it won’t be long!

Updates as you are able  please. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> Sounds like this may be the home stretch. For those of us playing along at home
> 
> "You will find her normal temperature around 99 to 101, and as soon as it starts to drop below 99 and continues to drop (now you take it every hour or two) you have about 12-24 hours from the start of the drop. When it bottoms out to 98 or 97.9, then you have about 2-12 hours."


Well she's at 98.2F at the moment. Bella could potentially have contractions within 2 hours? Didn't think it'd be that soon.


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Well she's at 98.2F at the moment. Bella could potentially have contractions within 2 hours? Didn't think it'd be that soon.




She’ll pant first and do more (major) nesting. But at this point when she starts panting it’ll be labor. So once she starts panting it can be at anytime - within an hour -to 6-8 or more. 

Hang tough girls! The horse is rounding the last bend!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

Dogs4Life said:


> Hoping for a safe delivery!


Thank you and I hope so too.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Oh Engel I’m so shappy for you and Bella! I am praying for a fast, smooth and uneventful delivery!hopefully she’ll wake up panting... then it won’t be long!
> 
> Updates as you are able  please.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hopefully it will and I'll keep posting updates as and when I can.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> She’ll pant first and do more (major) nesting. But at this point when she starts panting it’ll be labor. So once she starts panting it can be at anytime - within an hour -to 6-8 or more.
> 
> Hang tough girls! The horse is rounding the last bend!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


wow ok. I guess as she's whelped before she could whelp faster again- muscle memory? Same as some people I guess...


----------



## jojogal001

Haven’t heard anything for a little while. All going ok? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fjm

Sounds as though the sensible dog intends to aim for vet opening hours, rather than waiting till everything is closed for the weekend. Hope all is going well.


----------



## jojogal001

I hope no news is good news. I’m off to bed and will check in when I’m up. I’m hoping all is well and everything/everybody is ok other than a lot tired. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Charmed

op: Following along, too.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Haven’t heard anything for a little while. All going ok?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





jojogal001 said:


> I hope no news is good news. I’m off to bed and will check in when I’m up. I’m hoping all is well and everything/everybody is ok other than a lot tired.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Nothing yet. Taken Bella's temp and its crept up to 37.5C again. Will take it again in a couple of hours to see how it goes.


----------



## Engel

fjm said:


> Sounds as though the sensible dog intends to aim for vet opening hours, rather than waiting till everything is closed for the weekend. Hope all is going well.


Well hopefully she will whelp during the day. There's nothing as of yet


----------



## Engel

Charmed said:


> Following along, too.


Hey! enjoying the show? :Lol:


----------



## Skylar

Engel said:


> Hey! enjoying the show? :Lol:


haha, it is quite a show.

I'm sure lots of us PF are watching and hoping that everything goes smoothly and easily.... if she is pregnant.


----------



## jojogal001

Wow. What a crazy ride! I just got up and was hoping to see puppy pics and her temp crept up a little. 

But, I’m assuming you guys got some sleep? I’ll be watching with you again today, and all night if it takes that long as I’ll be at work. I can imagine putting a doctor on hold so I can check the latest post !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Wow. What a crazy ride! I just got up and was hoping to see puppy pics and her temp crept up a little.
> 
> But, I’m assuming you guys got some sleep? I’ll be watching with you again today, and all night if it takes that long as I’ll be at work. I can imagine putting a doctor on hold so I can check the latest post !
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We did get some sleep. Her temp is remaining at 37.5C


----------



## Engel

TEMP UPDATE
April 18th

Woke up today and Bella's slower than usual but seems ok in herself. 

11:30 temp - 37.5C (99.5F)

14:00 temp - 38.5C (101.3F)

16:30 temp - 37.4C (99.2F)

Her temp dropped to 36.8 (98.2F) roughly 20hr ago. 

I'm not sure but it's dropped quite a between the last 2 readings. I've read the temp may rise to 101+ 12-24 hours before it drops (to indicate labour may start soon).


----------



## jojogal001

Yes I remember reading that it can go up 12-24 before labor. I’m sorry it’s turned into such a waiting game for you. It’s really hard not knowing when to expect them. 

But hopefully she’ll progress soon and then it’ll be smooth sailing . 

Hang in there. You’re an amazing mom and you’re doing more than ok  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> Yes I remember reading that it can go up 12-24 before labor. I’m sorry it’s turned into such a waiting game for you. It’s really hard not knowing when to expect them.
> 
> But hopefully she’ll progress soon and then it’ll be smooth sailing .
> 
> Hang in there. You’re an amazing mom and you’re doing more than ok
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I know, anticipation is killing me lol Really want to see them now


----------



## Ghost

I think you’ve got us all on pins and needles! But probably none so much as you ? hope you are hanging in there. Try to get some sleep while you can.


----------



## MollyMuiMa

Just checkin' in LOL!!....................:dancing2:


----------



## BorderKelpie

This is better than any silly reality TV show!


----------



## jojogal001

MollyMuiMa said:


> Just checkin' in LOL!!....................:dancing2:


Me Too!


----------



## fjm

Schrodinger's puppies - are they in there or aren't they?!


----------



## Vita

fjm said:


> Schrodinger's puppies - are they in there or aren't they?!


Ha ha ha ha ha! That's a good one!

I vote to name the first born Quantum.


----------



## fjm

Plus Charm, Boson and Higgs?

Hope all is going well - we may joke, but we know it is an anxious time when you are the one doing the real watching and waiting.


----------



## Engel

Ghost said:


> I think you’ve got us all on pins and needles! But probably none so much as you ? hope you are hanging in there. Try to get some sleep while you can.


We're all good here. Both Bella and I are sleeping while we can ?


----------



## Engel

MollyMuiMa said:


> Just checkin' in LOL!!....................





jojogal001 said:


> MollyMuiMa said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just checkin' in LOL!!....................
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me Too!
Click to expand...

Nothing yet guys- just chilling, sleeping while we can


----------



## Engel

BorderKelpie said:


> This is better than any silly reality TV show!


Haha indeed!


----------



## Engel

fjm said:


> Schrodinger's puppies - are they in there or aren't they?!





Vita said:


> fjm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Schrodinger's puppies - are they in there or aren't they?!
> 
> 
> 
> Ha ha ha ha ha! That's a good one!
> 
> I vote to name the first born Quantum.
Click to expand...




fjm said:


> Plus Charm, Boson and Higgs?
> 
> Hope all is going well - we may joke, but we know it is an anxious time when you are the one doing the real watching and waiting.


Haha :laugh:


----------



## Engel

*UPDATE

Bella has been acting quite strangely over these past 2 hours. 
She's spent 1 hour panting non-stop followed by another hour of fast breathing (but not panting). She is very restless and can't stay in the same spot for 2 minutes.

She keeps going to and from her whelping box and is doing a lot of lip licking and her abdomen has gone extremely hard.*


----------



## fjm

Sounds like you are both in for a busy night. And I should not have made that remark about whelping during office hours - it's a weekend AND Bank Holiday!


----------



## Engel

fjm said:


> Sounds like you are both in for a busy night. And I should not have made that remark about whelping during office hours - it's a weekend AND Bank Holiday!


oh well lol. The kids won't have an Easter egg hunt, it'll be a puppy hunt :laugh:


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> *UPDATE
> 
> 
> 
> Bella has been acting quite strangely over these past 2 hours.
> 
> She's spent 1 hour panting non-stop followed by another hour of fast breathing (but not panting). She is very restless and can't stay in the same spot for 2 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> She keeps going to and from her whelping box and is doing a lot of lip licking and her abdomen has gone extremely hard.*




How very exciting?!?!! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> How very exciting?!?!!


I KNOW!!!! :smile:


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> oh well lol. The kids won't have an Easter egg hunt, it'll be a puppy hunt :laugh:




I wanna do a puppy hunt!!!  

Well I’m up now for The next 30 hours (approx). Is am not going to say anything about what might happen... I’m afraid of jinxing things. 

I refuse to say things like “sounds promising” or “should be soon.” Or things like “We’re on baby watch!” Or “Finally! It’s about **** time!”

So I will just keep my fingers crossed and my silent prayers to myself for now. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> I wanna do a puppy hunt!!!
> 
> Well I’m up now for The next 30 hours (approx). Is am not going to say anything about what might happen... I’m afraid of jinxing things.
> 
> I refuse to say things like “sounds promising” or “should be soon.” Or things like “We’re on baby watch!” Or “Finally! It’s about **** time!”
> 
> So I will just keep my fingers crossed and my silent prayers to myself for now.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha. A puppy hunt sounds good doesn't it :laugh:
Will keep you updated!


----------



## Viking Queen

Oh, boy!! ???


----------



## jojogal001

Are you still watching her temp? Just wondering what that might be. But you know what it sounds like to me. 

Again, not saying it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dechi

I have a feeling the birth is happening... Can’t wait to see them !


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Thinking of you both! Best of luck! May your girl have a quick and uneventful whelp!


----------



## jojogal001

The suspense is killing me! At work now, with you pulled up on my computer


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Wishing you and Bella the best...that all will go smoothly. Lots of good luck vibes headed your way.


----------



## jojogal001

Anything new yet? My phone is so quiet with the lack of notifications lol


----------



## fjm

Thinking of you, and hoping it was either a false alarm or she is safely through it.


----------



## Engel

fjm said:


> Thinking of you, and hoping it was either a false alarm or she is safely through it.


It seems to be a false alarm but not sure. She ate a little bit. Maybe she's just preparing for the whelp at the moment.


----------



## Rose n Poos

So if I'm counting right, on the 13th you said you've had Bella 8 wks/56 days. Today makes 9 wks/63 days. If actual conception took place even the day before you brought her home, she's heading into overtime. 

Oh the suspense


----------



## Engel

Rose n Poos said:


> So if I'm counting right, on the 13th you said you've had Bella 8 wks/56 days. Today makes 9 wks/63 days. If actual conception took place even the day before you brought her home, she's heading into overtime.
> 
> Oh the suspense


I was meant to put 7 weeks...just realized the mistake...oops 

I've had Bella 8 weeks today (April 21st).

Sorry...


----------



## patk

so there are no symptoms now? good time to get some


----------



## Engel

patk said:


> so there are no symptoms now? good time to get some


No there's nothing. I'm deffo enjoying the sleep while I can get it


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Engel said:


> *UPDATE
> 
> Bella has been acting quite strangely over these past 2 hours.
> She's spent 1 hour panting non-stop followed by another hour of fast breathing (but not panting). She is very restless and can't stay in the same spot for 2 minutes.
> 
> She keeps going to and from her whelping box and is doing a lot of lip licking and her abdomen has gone extremely hard.*


This was on the 17th. This concerns me. Is she still acting this way? I don't know much about puppy whelping but does this go on for days and days? I'd be so worried that something is wrong with Bella. Should she be looked at by a vet? Or has this behavior stopped or what? Yikes!:afraid:


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> I was meant to put 7 weeks...just realized the mistake...oops
> 
> I've had Bella 8 weeks today (April 21st).
> 
> Sorry...




So according to this she could still have a few days left. I’m wondering if, when she was nesting so much, that it made her pant a lot. Also there is a slight discharge from the vulva in the last 1-2 weeks before whelping, which would account for her licking. I didn’t experience this with Penny except for the nesting and laying in her whelping box and being restless. 

She would also come out on the cool tile and lay on her side or back... but she wasn’t able to curl up any longer. 

So I think, and I am half guessing here, that everything that was described could be normal for the timing. I would also think that if she was past due that she would be very sick by now since the puppies would probably no longer be viable.

Engel, please correct me if I am remembering things wrong, or if you disagree since you are there with her.





Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> This was on the 17th. This concerns me. Is she still acting this way? I don't know much about puppy whelping but does this go on for days and days? I'd be so worried that something is wrong with Bella. Should she be looked at by a vet? Or has this behavior stopped or what? Yikes!:afraid:


This behaviour has stopped now. It's quite warm here in the UK so maybe I just jumped to conclusions a bit too quickly. As far as I'm aware they can become quite restless during the last weeks of gestation. They may also show nesting behaviours as she prepares the area for whelping. I suppose it's like a pregnant woman preparing the house and cleaning it making it 'perfect' for the baby prior to it being born


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> So according to this she could still have a few days left. I’m wondering if, when she was nesting so much, that it made her pant a lot. Also there is a slight discharge from the vulva in the last 1-2 weeks before whelping, which would account for her licking. I didn’t experience this with Penny except for the nesting and laying in her whelping box and being restless.
> 
> She would also come out on the cool tile and lay on her side or back... but she wasn’t able to curl up any longer.
> 
> So I think, and I am half guessing here, that everything that was described could be normal for the timing. I would also think that if she was past due that she would be very sick by now since the puppies would probably no longer be viable.
> 
> Engel, please correct me if I am remembering things wrong, or if you disagree since you are there with her.


Could've! It has been quite warm in the UK too. It would seem that it's normal for the timing from what I have read on the internet; although nothing is usually textbook. If she was over due she would be very ill. She's the complete obvious; very happy, healthy and full of energy!


----------



## jojogal001

Engel said:


> Could've! It has been quite warm in the UK too. It would seem that it's normal for the timing from what I have read on the internet; although nothing is usually textbook. If she was over due she would be very ill. She's the complete obvious; very happy, healthy and full of energy!




That is great to know! Is her tummy still moving? I’m sure it is, just asking. You’ve done some research and have learned some great things to know. Good work!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> That is great to know! Is her tummy still moving? I’m sure it is, just asking. You’ve done some research and have learned some great things to know. Good work!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm doing my best given the circumstances and yes the tummy is still moving


----------



## BorderKelpie

Engel, you are doing a phenomenal job. Considering this is not something you signed up for, but you are stepping up and taking full responsibility for the little life/lives in your care. Thank you for that. 

I have been so frustrated with people this past year (more so than usual) since I have been fostering/caring for a bunch of animals that were left behind when someone died unexpectedly. He had a bunch of really nice stock dogs and horses he was raising/training/breeding. These dogs (and horses) were bred to work. I have been trying to place them in active companion/sport/working homes as (neutered) and almost free. I have been working on leash training, crate training, introduced them to stock, etc. I joined a bunch of ACD groups online just to find people randomly breeding untested, unregistered, off color heelers and getting $400-1000 a pup and I can't give well bred standard colored, started dogs away. You know why? People either want only cute puppies or they want breeding rights - and currently, no one wants the standard colors right now. But, even the fancy 'new' colored dogs are ending up in shelters here. 

I really appreciate the time and effort, and especially, the care and affection you are giving Bella and her soon to be new family. 
Bless you for that. I hope all goes smoothly for you, Bella, and her pups.


----------



## jojogal001

BorderKelpie said:


> Engel, you are doing a phenomenal job. Considering this is not something you signed up for, but you are stepping up and taking full responsibility for the little life/lives in your care. Thank you for that.
> 
> I have been so frustrated with people this past year (more so than usual) since I have been fostering/caring for a bunch of animals that were left behind when someone died unexpectedly. He had a bunch of really nice stock dogs and horses he was raising/training/breeding. These dogs (and horses) were bred to work. I have been trying to place them in active companion/sport/working homes as (neutered) and almost free. I have been working on leash training, crate training, introduced them to stock, etc. I joined a bunch of ACD groups online just to find people randomly breeding untested, unregistered, off color heelers and getting $400-1000 a pup and I can't give well bred standard colored, started dogs away. You know why? People either want only cute puppies or they want breeding rights - and currently, no one wants the standard colors right now. But, even the fancy 'new' colored dogs are ending up in shelters here.
> 
> I really appreciate the time and effort, and especially, the care and affection you are giving Bella and her soon to be new family.
> Bless you for that. I hope all goes smoothly for you, Bella, and her pups.




First, I’d like to say that I totally agree with you on Engel stepping up to the plate and helping her little Bella and soon to be born pups. She didn’t sign up for all of this and so many people would have taken the dog back (if possible) or turned her over to a rescue group. 

What she is doing is HUGE! I give many kudos to her!!

As for what you are dealing with, I am so sorry you’re having such difficulty in finding these dogs homes. 

Are you a rescue? Is that how you got all his animals?

I thank you for dedicating yourself to helping all of them. My hat is off to you. 

It really is difficult when people want the puppies and won’t consider adults, and those with standard color. 

I had terrible puppy fever and was looking for a toy poodle puppy. Then I decided to broaden my search to young toy poodles: 2 years or less. I found plenty on Craigslist, and one man had six 1 year old male tpoos with a top weight of 6.5 lbs. But with my disability, I have to have my dogs go potty indoors on fake grass setups and/or wee pads. 

I knew the males would be lifting their legs and just didn’t want to deal with that. 

I found someone that had a poodle Pom mix that is female. And she will be 7 years old in about 6 weeks. I got her about 2 months ago. I’ll get my puppy next year (maybe) for my birthday. 

But I’ll pray that the people you know of looking for pups, will also have a change of heart and will take these dogs in. 

What you are doing is amazing, and I think things will fall into place, hopefully soon, and they will be off to their new homes. 

Thank you so much for the work you are doing. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

UPDATE

I've taken Bella to the vets and she's empty. Anything that was in there has been reabsorbed or she was having a real convincing phantom. Either way, I can now breath a sigh of relief knowing Bella nor I don't have any of that to deal with (as horrible that may sound).

I never got her to breed, just to be a pet nothing else. I'm a sucker for rescue dogs especially those on deaths door. They shouldn't suffer and deserve a second chance at life. (Some of you know about all my current dogs and the situation they were in). 

Now Bella can enjoy her life and not being a breeding bitch. Her actual life starts now


----------



## fjm

That is a huge relief! You may need to be prepared for the next stage of phantom pregnancy - milk, and nursing toys (I had one dog who created a nest under my bed and filled it with tennis balls - I wondered where they had all gone!).


----------



## Skylar

Best outcome.


----------



## Mufar42

Well I am both relieved and disappointed. But reality says this is the best outcome for you both.I had a female once the had phantom pregnancies, she would swell up like she had milk and nest. I later had her spayed and that all stopped in time. Well onward we go. This thread gave everyone something nice to chat about.


----------



## BorderKelpie

jojogal001 said:


> First, I’d like to say that I totally agree with you on Engel stepping up to the plate and helping her little Bella and soon to be born pups. She didn’t sign up for all of this and so many people would have taken the dog back (if possible) or turned her over to a rescue group.
> 
> What she is doing is HUGE! I give many kudos to her!!
> 
> As for what you are dealing with, I am so sorry you’re having such difficulty in finding these dogs homes.
> 
> Are you a rescue? Is that how you got all his animals?
> 
> I thank you for dedicating yourself to helping all of them. My hat is off to you.
> 
> It really is difficult when people want the puppies and won’t consider adults, and those with standard color.
> 
> I had terrible puppy fever and was looking for a toy poodle puppy. Then I decided to broaden my search to young toy poodles: 2 years or less. I found plenty on Craigslist, and one man had six 1 year old male tpoos with a top weight of 6.5 lbs. But with my disability, I have to have my dogs go potty indoors on fake grass setups and/or wee pads.
> 
> I knew the males would be lifting their legs and just didn’t want to deal with that.
> 
> I found someone that had a poodle Pom mix that is female. And she will be 7 years old in about 6 weeks. I got her about 2 months ago. I’ll get my puppy next year (maybe) for my birthday.
> 
> But I’ll pray that the people you know of looking for pups, will also have a change of heart and will take these dogs in.
> 
> What you are doing is amazing, and I think things will fall into place, hopefully soon, and they will be off to their new homes.
> 
> Thank you so much for the work you are doing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No, I am not a rescue and I do believe this will be my last rescue attempt for a long while or possibly forever. I am tired of it all. I have been doing this stuff out of my own pocket for decades. 
This was a friend of a friend and I had no clue I was going t get in this deep by just offering to be there for her. 

As of last Saturday, I have a legitimate rescue helping me for the first time ever. It's a nice feeling that I have some support now. 

Engel, I am pleased that Bella is finally getting to live the life she deserves, She is a lucky lady to have found you. 
(although, her pups would have been adorable and so wonderfully loved and cared for by you).


----------



## Dechi

Oh my, what an ending, I was not expecting this !

You must relieved (and a little sad) and I’m happy for you. 

Did the vet explain why her belly was moving as though there were puppies in it ? I didn’t know phantom pregnancies could do that.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Oh wow! She had us going, didn't she? ! It is just as well though, of course, though like most here, it's a little bit bitter sweet. She will have a nice life with you. :angel:


----------



## glorybeecosta

BorderKelpie said:


> Engel, you are doing a phenomenal job. Considering this is not something you signed up for, but you are stepping up and taking full responsibility for the little life/lives in your care. Thank you for that.
> 
> I have been so frustrated with people this past year (more so than usual) since I have been fostering/caring for a bunch of animals that were left behind when someone died unexpectedly. He had a bunch of really nice stock dogs and horses he was raising/training/breeding. These dogs (and horses) were bred to work. I have been trying to place them in active companion/sport/working homes as (neutered) and almost free. I have been working on leash training, crate training, introduced them to stock, etc. I joined a bunch of ACD groups online just to find people randomly breeding untested, unregistered, off color heelers and getting $400-1000 a pup and I can't give well bred standard colored, started dogs away. You know why? People either want only cute puppies or they want breeding rights - and currently, no one wants the standard colors right now. But, even the fancy 'new' colored dogs are ending up in shelters here.
> 
> I really appreciate the time and effort, and especially, the care and affection you are giving Bella and her soon to be new family.
> Bless you for that. I hope all goes smoothly for you, Bella, and her pups.


I have had 8 poodles and only 2 were puppies the rest have been 8 months to 5 years old and there is no difference in their attachment to me. Many people think because it is not a pup the dog won't bond with you, not so at all. I train them all the same way be it a 8 week old or 5 year old, and they all have turned out the same way. I train and treat them as if they were human babies. Plus a lot quicker training and a lot less work.


----------



## jojogal001

It is a relief that Bella doesn’t have to go through 8 weeks of raising puppies. And you too, and then finding them homes. So it’s over now and you guys can get on with normal life. 

I guess it must be bittersweet though. It was so much excitement and being prepared for the puppies, only to find out they’ve been reabsorbed has to be a little bit of a letdown. 

But Bella can now move on with her new life and totally settle in. I’m sure this experience brought the two of you even closer much more quickly than it would have taken. 

You’re an awesome mom, and I’m impressed how you took everything in stride no matter what the outcome would be. I think we all can tell what a loving mom you are. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Engel

BorderKelpie said:


> Engel, you are doing a phenomenal job. Considering this is not something you signed up for, but you are stepping up and taking full responsibility for the little life/lives in your care. Thank you for that.
> 
> I have been so frustrated with people this past year (more so than usual) since I have been fostering/caring for a bunch of animals that were left behind when someone died unexpectedly. He had a bunch of really nice stock dogs and horses he was raising/training/breeding. These dogs (and horses) were bred to work. I have been trying to place them in active companion/sport/working homes as (neutered) and almost free. I have been working on leash training, crate training, introduced them to stock, etc. I joined a bunch of ACD groups online just to find people randomly breeding untested, unregistered, off color heelers and getting $400-1000 a pup and I can't give well bred standard colored, started dogs away. You know why? People either want only cute puppies or they want breeding rights - and currently, no one wants the standard colors right now. But, even the fancy 'new' colored dogs are ending up in shelters here.
> 
> I really appreciate the time and effort, and especially, the care and affection you are giving Bella and her soon to be new family.
> Bless you for that. I hope all goes smoothly for you, Bella, and her pups.


Aww thank you and I understand your pain!
Both of my girls (Pebbles and Bella) were got rid of because they outlived their usefulness. Pebbles couldn't produce a litter and was starved. Bella was getting to the end of her breeding life (2-5 years old is optimal apparently). I think the excuse was that the mum died and the daughter couldn't cope with all these dogs was nothing more than an excuse as Bella was the only one got rid of. Plus of course the fancy new colours are going to end up in shelters. People are always after something new. 

I hate puppies, yes they're cute and all but I love them more as adults so I don't think I'd get a pup again I'd be more inclined to go to the nearest rescue.


----------



## glorybeecosta

Puppies like you are cute, but I do not want to spend the time training and with an adult it is so much easier. Solid work for a month or so, but by then they have it down pretty much. I hardly let them out of my sight the first month.


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> First, I’d like to say that I totally agree with you on Engel stepping up to the plate and helping her little Bella and soon to be born pups. She didn’t sign up for all of this and so many people would have taken the dog back (if possible) or turned her over to a rescue group.
> 
> What she is doing is HUGE! I give many kudos to her!!
> 
> As for what you are dealing with, I am so sorry you’re having such difficulty in finding these dogs homes.
> 
> Are you a rescue? Is that how you got all his animals?
> 
> I thank you for dedicating yourself to helping all of them. My hat is off to you.
> 
> It really is difficult when people want the puppies and won’t consider adults, and those with standard color.
> 
> I had terrible puppy fever and was looking for a toy poodle puppy. Then I decided to broaden my search to young toy poodles: 2 years or less. I found plenty on Craigslist, and one man had six 1 year old male tpoos with a top weight of 6.5 lbs. But with my disability, I have to have my dogs go potty indoors on fake grass setups and/or wee pads.
> 
> I knew the males would be lifting their legs and just didn’t want to deal with that.
> 
> I found someone that had a poodle Pom mix that is female. And she will be 7 years old in about 6 weeks. I got her about 2 months ago. I’ll get my puppy next year (maybe) for my birthday.
> 
> But I’ll pray that the people you know of looking for pups, will also have a change of heart and will take these dogs in.
> 
> What you are doing is amazing, and I think things will fall into place, hopefully soon, and they will be off to their new homes.
> 
> Thank you so much for the work you are doing.


The amount of recognition towards members on this forum is gunna make me cry. You guys are so sweet. 

When I get a dog or any animal for that matter (ive rescued 5 rats on separate occasions) in in it for the long haul.


----------



## Engel

fjm said:


> That is a huge relief! You may need to be prepared for the next stage of phantom pregnancy - milk, and nursing toys (I had one dog who created a nest under my bed and filled it with tennis balls - I wondered where they had all gone!).


I could be wrong but I think she's already gone through that stage and we're out the other side. There are NO signs at all that she was/could've been pregnant or having a phantom. You wouldn't think anything happened. 

On the plus side, she looks healthier now. She now has a healthy shiny coat free of mats. Clean and (almost) hair free ears and eyes. She has gained almost a kilogram since being here and you cant see any bones sticking out now! The only thing I cant really change yet is her teeth but that'll come soon enough. For now she's attempting to chew bones and I'm attempting to brush her remaining teeth.


----------



## Engel

Skylar said:


> Best outcome.


In reality yes though it does make you wonder what could have been. That being said, I look back over the past couple of weeks and I'm glad it turned out this way, which I know sounds horrible. If anything did come of it I'm not sure she would of been here now based off how emaciated she was


----------



## Engel

Mufar42 said:


> Well I am both relieved and disappointed. But reality says this is the best outcome for you both.I had a female once the had phantom pregnancies, she would swell up like she had milk and nest. I later had her spayed and that all stopped in time. Well onward we go. This thread gave everyone something nice to chat about.


Indeed. Onwards and upwards.


----------



## Engel

BorderKelpie said:


> No, I am not a rescue and I do believe this will be my last rescue attempt for a long while or possibly forever. I am tired of it all. I have been doing this stuff out of my own pocket for decades.
> This was a friend of a friend and I had no clue I was going t get in this deep by just offering to be there for her.
> 
> As of last Saturday, I have a legitimate rescue helping me for the first time ever. It's a nice feeling that I have some support now.
> 
> Engel, I am pleased that Bella is finally getting to live the life she deserves, She is a lucky lady to have found you.
> (although, her pups would have been adorable and so wonderfully loved and cared for by you).


Never say never ad forever is a long time! You're doing great and I bet it's really nice having a rescue help you out! Just think how many lives you've helped. World would be much better for animals with more people like you.

Well I hope Bella thinks that too. She seems very happy. She now knows where 'home' is.


----------



## Engel

Dechi said:


> Oh my, what an ending, I was not expecting this !
> 
> You must relieved (and a little sad) and I’m happy for you.
> 
> Did the vet explain why her belly was moving as though there were puppies in it ? I didn’t know phantom pregnancies could do that.


I know it's one hell of an ending and yes I am relieved as I'm not sure what the outcome would have been for Bella considering the condition she was in before.

Well there's the possibility of spasms causing the pup like movement under the skin. Apparently it's not uncommon.


----------



## Engel

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Oh wow! She had us going, didn't she? ! It is just as well though, of course, though like most here, it's a little bit bitter sweet. She will have a nice life with you. :angel:


Indeed and I hope so!


----------



## Engel

glorybeecosta said:


> I have had 8 poodles and only 2 were puppies the rest have been 8 months to 5 years old and there is no difference in their attachment to me. Many people think because it is not a pup the dog won't bond with you, not so at all. I train them all the same way be it a 8 week old or 5 year old, and they all have turned out the same way. I train and treat them as if they were human babies. Plus a lot quicker training and a lot less work.


I've found this to be true too! Make's no difference how old the dog is, once you've gained their trust, they're all the same!


----------



## Engel

jojogal001 said:


> It is a relief that Bella doesn’t have to go through 8 weeks of raising puppies. And you too, and then finding them homes. So it’s over now and you guys can get on with normal life.
> 
> I guess it must be bittersweet though. It was so much excitement and being prepared for the puppies, only to find out they’ve been reabsorbed has to be a little bit of a letdown.
> 
> But Bella can now move on with her new life and totally settle in. I’m sure this experience brought the two of you even closer much more quickly than it would have taken.
> 
> You’re an awesome mom, and I’m impressed how you took everything in stride no matter what the outcome would be. I think we all can tell what a loving mom you are.


Yes we can. Onwards and upwards from here. Just need to sort her teeth out and get her spayed and then she can hopefully go on to live a long happy and healthy life. 

All I can say is that I try my best with what I have. I've always been dealt the crap card in life so I guess I'm used to dealing with difficult things or unpredictable things. Life has its ways of working itself out


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## BorderKelpie

Engel said:


> Never say never ad forever is a long time! You're doing great and I bet it's really nice having a rescue help you out! Just think how many lives you've helped. World would be much better for animals with more people like you.
> 
> Well I hope Bella thinks that too. She seems very happy. She now knows where 'home' is.



Unfortunately, after last Wednesday, this will have to be my last rescue/foster. I will not risk any more of my pets for others. Bug is going to be ok, but I can not risk him again. 
(I'll make a separate post when I am ready. I don't want to hijack your beautiful thread with my stuff).


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## BorderKelpie

Engel said:


> Aww thank you and I understand your pain!
> Both of my girls (Pebbles and Bella) were got rid of because they outlived their usefulness. Pebbles couldn't produce a litter and was starved. Bella was getting to the end of her breeding life (2-5 years old is optimal apparently). I think the excuse was that the mum died and the daughter couldn't cope with all these dogs was nothing more than an excuse as Bella was the only one got rid of. Plus of course the fancy new colours are going to end up in shelters. People are always after something new.
> 
> I hate puppies, yes they're cute and all but I love them more as adults so I don't think I'd get a pup again I'd be more inclined to go to the nearest rescue.


Outlived their usefulness?! That makes me so angry (not at you, you are a blessing!). 

My Coulter is about to be 15. He can no longer do much more than hobble about and con us out of treats (he LOVES those nasty frosted sugar cookie things don't worry, not his normal diet, but at is age, we let him get away with bad stuff. He's also about 50 pounds so I don't assume a cookie a night will hurt at this point). My Penny (now about 14-15 years) was also dumped after mass producing puppies for who knows how long. 
I can no longer 'have puppies,' guess it's time for the pound for me, too. lol 
Best I can do anymore is growl at neighbors (and co-workers - oops)


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## BorderKelpie

Engel said:


> Aww thank you and I understand your pain!
> Both of my girls (Pebbles and Bella) were got rid of because they outlived their usefulness. Pebbles couldn't produce a litter and was starved. Bella was getting to the end of her breeding life (2-5 years old is optimal apparently). I think the excuse was that the mum died and the daughter couldn't cope with all these dogs was nothing more than an excuse as Bella was the only one got rid of. Plus of course the fancy new colours are going to end up in shelters. People are always after something new.
> 
> I hate puppies, yes they're cute and all but I love them more as adults so I don't think I'd get a pup again I'd be more inclined to go to the nearest rescue.


Outlived their usefulness?! That makes me so angry (not at you, you are a blessing!). 

My Coulter is about to be 15. He can no longer do much more than hobble about and con us out of treats (he LOVES those nasty frosted sugar cookie things don't worry, not his normal diet, but at his age, we let him get away with bad stuff. He's also about 50 pounds so I don't assume a cookie a night will hurt at this point). My Penny (now about 14-15 years) was also dumped after mass producing puppies for who knows how long. 
I can no longer 'have puppies,' guess it's time for the pound for me, too. lol 
Best I can do anymore is growl at neighbors (and co-workers - oops)


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## Engel

BorderKelpie said:


> Unfortunately, after last Wednesday, this will have to be my last rescue/foster. I will not risk any more of my pets for others. Bug is going to be ok, but I can not risk him again.
> (I'll make a separate post when I am ready. I don't want to hijack your beautiful thread with my stuff).


That's fair enough. When you are ready please do share your rescue/fostering adventure Im sure many here will enjoy it me included! You must have a wealth of knowledge and we are lucky to have you on this forum!!!


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## Engel

BorderKelpie said:


> Outlived their usefulness?! That makes me so angry (not at you, you are a blessing!).
> 
> My Coulter is about to be 15. He can no longer do much more than hobble about and con us out of treats (he LOVES those nasty frosted sugar cookie things don't worry, not his normal diet, but at his age, we let him get away with bad stuff. He's also about 50 pounds so I don't assume a cookie a night will hurt at this point). My Penny (now about 14-15 years) was also dumped after mass producing puppies for who knows how long.
> I can no longer 'have puppies,' guess it's time for the pound for me, too. lol
> Best I can do anymore is growl at neighbors (and co-workers - oops)


I totally agree!! It angers me also. 

Aww bless them. It wont hurt! As all my current dogs have been rescues in one way or another they too live like kings and queens. Roast with veggies and all the trimmings once a week as well as one especially for their birthdays. Maybe a few more veggies here and there during the week (they love them). So that cookie or 2...or wont hurt him. Enjoy the time you have them and spoil them.


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