# can two male Poodles work?



## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

For those of you who know that I was planning to get a female Moyen to be the second dog of my family (I currently have a 4-year-old male mini, Vontae), that plan has fallen through, for reasons not worth elaborating upon. More importantly, I'm now considering an 18-month-old male Moyen from one of Japan's top breeders. I've seen videos and photos of this Moyen, and he seems absolutely wonderful - playful yet not aggressive, non-Apha type, pretty much just like Vontae. In fact, his dark blue color makes him look like, basically, a larger version of Vontae - Vontae is around 13 inches; this dog is around 16 inches. 

Frankly, judging from the videos and photos, I'm very taken with him - see attached photos and video links of him below. The only thing that's holding me back, is the male-male thing. I've asked this question before already, and it seems like the consensus is, Poodles aren't a breed known for male-male aggression, unless they happen upon an in-heat female (won't happen unless they happen to meet one outside). Is this correct? And, if neither Vontae nor this dog has shown aggression toward other male (and female) dogs, is it a good bet that they will live together peacefully? 

Beyond that, is there a decent chance that they will not only live peacefully, but also actually become good friends who enjoy playing with each other. I know the latter cannot be guaranteed - even if it's male-female, there's never a guarantee that two dogs will be best friends. But, I want to make sure it's not a situation where, if I have two male Poodles, the realistic best case I could hope for is a peaceful co-existence but no more than that. If that's the realistic "ceiling" to their relationship, then I really don't want to consider this dog - I want at least the chance for them to develop a strong bond, even if it's not a guarantee. 

Any thoughts or direct experience on this? Right now Vontae and this dog are both intact. Also I will be able to personally fly to Japan to meet this dog before committing to him, but Vontae will not be able to fly with me to meet this dog.

Kevin


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I have an intact almost 2 year old male standard, and young 12 year old neutered male mini poodle, and a 2 year old intact male pomeranian. They all get along. The 12 year old gets annoyed/sorta plays with the standard. THe 4 pound pom and the 55 pound standard play all the time.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think if there are no trouble making girls around (Lily, yes I mean you) two intact males can do fine. The boy you are looking at is very wonderful.


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## Meekospeeps (Nov 12, 2017)

In my experience, two males can coexist easier with each other than two females, although that is also doable. Just remember to love on both, so no one has jealousy issues or feels left out. Congratulations on finding such an awesome addition to the family!!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have to disagree, I have had 2 to 4 female toys at one time, and have never had a fight or problem with them.. They were all spayed, and from 2 to 5 years age difference. I have 3 now, and they never fight, may push one another out of the way for attention, no growling, snapping. The never go to one another's food bowl unless the other one walks away. They will stand behind each other and wait for them to leave the bowl. They take turns getting their treats, and the oldest one is always first so I guess they know their pecking order


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

In the videos, are the other males also intact ? I suppose if he’s used to getting along with other males, he should be fine with Vontae.

How is Vontae with intact males ?

I would be hesitant to add a second dog without having the two dogs meeting first, or at least having a way out if they don’t get along. Can you ask the breeder what the possibilities are in case of a problem ?


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Can two male dogs live happily together? | Daily Mail Online

Can two male dogs live happily together?
This is a very difficult question to answer, as how dogs get on depends on their breed, their personality, their place in the home hierarchy and their sex.
In particular, don't feel that you should get more than one dog because you think they would be happier together rather than being kept alone.
Dogs are very happy just to have the attention of their owners! It is also not possible to give as much attention to each dog if you have more than one, and you may find that one of the two is your 'favourite'.
In addition, when you are at home, the dogs know you are the 'top' of the hierarchy, but when you leave them alone, they may fight to re-establish the 'pecking order'.
Breeds that have 'guarding' tendencies are particularly likely to be a problem in these circumstances.

Female dogs
Although there are additional responsibilities when you own a female dog, such as pregnancy prevention, there are many advantages having a female dog rather than a male. They are likely to be:
· More companionable
· More obedient
· Less likely to roam
· Less aggressive, especially towards other dogs
Of course, all of these points in my reply are generalisations, but do have to be carefully considered. Make sure that you really feel you can give two dogs the attention and care that they deserve.
Male dogs
Just over 50 per cent of male dogs under one year show some hypersexual behavior, and when older than this, 65 per cent of dogs had some of these traits.
Hypersexual behaviour includes:
· The dog mounting people and inanimate objects
· The dog could be aggressive, especially towards other dogs
· The dog marking the house as their 'territory' with urine
· Wandering. Male dogs are more motivated to wander from their home than females are
· Excitability
· Destructiveness
Male and female dog
In this case, it would be essential to have one or both of the dogs neutered, to avoid any unwanted puppies


Read more: Can two male dogs live happily together? | Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Read more: Can two male dogs live happily together? | Daily Mail Online 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Thanks for all the input! Another thing is, this unneutered male I'm considering is currently peeing both inside and outside - inside the house, he pees on a wee wee pad. If I get him, I definitely want him to do his business completely outside - the way my current male dog, Vontae, does. How hard is it to train a dog to make this switch (to stop peeing/pooping indoors completely) at 1.5 years old?

Kevin


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would move the pad closer and closer to the door and then just outside the door and then fade it entirely to make that transition.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

kchen95 said:


> Thanks for all the input! Another thing is, this unneutered male I'm considering is currently peeing both inside and outside - inside the house, he pees on a wee wee pad. If I get him, I definitely want him to do his business completely outside - the way my current male dog, Vontae, does. How hard is it to train a dog to make this switch (to stop peeing/pooping indoors completely) at 1.5 years old?
> 
> Kevin


Sage was 5 and never used a potty patch so I did with her the same a pup, and she picked up, but when I realized she walked when doing #2 I started her outside. She only uses the potty patch if I am gone and then only for #1. Took abut 3 weeks max to train both

Cayenne went outside she was 15 months, she was trained within 2 weeks for potty patch, but treats was on stand above potty patch. I tried to moverher potty patch to me bathroom every couple of days a foot or 2 toward bathroom. It did not work so it is where it started. Think I am going to try again. She will go in or outside either one.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

kchen95 said:


> Thanks for all the input! Another thing is, this unneutered male I'm considering is currently peeing both inside and outside - inside the house, he pees on a wee wee pad. If I get him, I definitely want him to do his business completely outside - the way my current male dog, Vontae, does. How hard is it to train a dog to make this switch (to stop peeing/pooping indoors completely) at 1.5 years old?
> 
> Kevin


My toy was 16 months old when I got him. Intact and marking inside and doing all his business inside. Never even been outside. It took a while and a lot of persistence but 2 years later he is a very reliable dog. He never has accidents inside anymore.

It would be easier with yours, since he goes outside already. Just make sure nothing resembles pee pads inside. You might have trouble with carpet and soft doggy beds. For some reason dogs most often use doggy beds when no pads are available. And carpet feels like a pee pad. Restrict access to those for as long as it takes if they are a problem.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Kevin -- What great news! Like others, I think it is very likely that two intact males will do very well together and that they will both enjoy having a canine companion. Of course, there are no guarantees. But it sounds like this could be a very good option for you. Nice that you can meet the new boy before committing to him. All the best to you and your family.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Thank you! I had a very long, extensive Facebook conversation with this Japanese breeder, and frankly I'm becoming comfortable with this idea.

Now, the breeder has offered to neuter this dog (his current name is Blue), free of charge, before I bring him to Taiwan. Do I go ahead and neuter Blue, even though Vontae (my current 4-year-old male) is intact? Or if I decide to let the breeder neuter Blue, I should go ahead and neuter Vontae so that the two of them can meet and develop their relationship as two neutered males?

What has prevented me from neutering Vontae is that, the latest medical research seems to indicate that neutering, even when the dog has fully matured, carries more health deficits than benefits - behavioral changes aside, if purely looking at health, neutering (even neutering a fully mature dog) is a minus, not a plus. But, these studies also say that these pros/cons calculations may be breed-specific - that for certain breeds with inherent low risks to cancers/bone problems supposedly brought about by neutering, neutering may not be a problem because the risks simply aren't high enough.

What are your thoughts on this? For mini poodles specifically (I suppose a 16-inch Moyen really is closer to a mini than to a standard), does neutering constitute a potential long-term health risk? Please see below a study that summarizes the potential health pros and cons of neutering (not breed specific). 

Would love any thoughts, and sincere apologies for flooding the thread with so many questions!

Kevin

Health Benefits from Neutering

Reduced risk (<1%) of dying from testicular cancer
Reduced risk for non-cancerous prostate conditions (ie benign prostate hyperplasia)
Reduced risk for perianal fistulas


Health Risks from Neutering

Increased risk for osteosarcoma (bone cancer) when neutered before 1 year of age.
Increased risk for cardiac hemangiosarcoma
Increased risk for hypothyroidism
Increased risk for progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
Increased risk for obesity
Increased risk for prostate cancer
Increased risk for urinary tract cancers
Increased risk for orthopedic disorders
Increased risk for adverse reactions to vaccinations


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

I responded before but I wanted to add that all my dogs were raised from puppies into my group. My mini poodle was about 10 years old when I got my pom, and my pom was about 9-10 months old when I got my standard.
My pom I think would be friendly with a calm 'outsider' dog (Probably mostly ignore it, though I think he'd protect his toys/space). My standard could take a little bit to warm up to something that wasn't calm. However I do think that I could introduce another dog into my pack with proper care.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I would be inclined to keep both boys intact. I am assuming, of course, that you are confident that you can keep your boys away from bitches in heat. You already do that with Vontae.

Looks like you have done your research on the medical reasons for and against neutering. Here is a video that basically comes to the same conclusion.

Spaying and neutering Dr. Karen Becker





My boy Sam is intact and I have no problem with him at all. When Bob (neutered male spoo) was alive, Sam got along well with him. In fact, Sam was very sweet with Bob. I am very happy with letting my boy keep all of his body parts.

I am looking forward to stories and photos of your two boys. (That's assuming that you go ahead with this boy, of course.)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I generally think that it is better to leave both intact or to neuter both. I agree that the current state of knowledge supports leaving males intact for health reasons.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

I’ve had two unaltered males in a home with unaltered and spayed females. There were occasional squabbles but nothing significant. We just made sure our laws were clear and didn’t waiver from what was acceptable and what wasn’t.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Thanks again everyone! The breeder told me that this dog does mark inside the house, where other male dogs living in the same house have marked. This isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself - even with my male dog Vontae, whenever he goes to his breeder's grooming school and plays with other dogs at the school, they put a diaper on him (and on all other male dogs) because the urine scent built from years of marking is simply too strong. Vontae always pees in his diaper (basically, trying to mark) when he's at the school, but he's perfectly reliable otherwise whenever he goes to a home (including his own) that hasn't been marked by other dogs.

But for this dog who is accustomed to marking inside his own home (I feel like his home is basically like Vontae's grooming school, with the number of dogs running around), how difficult will it be to train this out of him, once he enters a home without any urine marking and with only one other dog?

Kevin


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think it should be a problem as long as there is no old scent around. You will also want (on a number of fronts) to clean very well if there is an oops event to keep that spot from becoming attractive.


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## robby69 (Apr 29, 2012)

Of course the owner should always be the top dog over the pack, but I think it also matters that you either "pick", or see which one may be the more dominant one and promote that. We have a 2yr old and a 11yr old female spoos, and we made sure the 2yr old always knew that the 11yr old was in charge. Although she has pointed that out a few times herself to the younger one.

We always fed the older on first, gave treats first, let outside first, gave attention first. The 2yr old will bark like crazy sometimes at the 12yr old if she thinks she is getting something over on her, but she will NEVER try and take a toy away, go in the laundry room to eat while the older dog is in there.

I think this works great with an older dog and a puppy, or two puppies. Not sure about two adults introduced however.

They get along great, playing, barking at wildlife etc.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Thanks again everyone and happy new year! 

Purely for your viewing pleasure, the same-litter sister of Blue (the dog I’m considering) is apparently a little genius poodle – she’s not for sale and is being kept back for agility and obedience (and potential breeding down the road if a suitable stud comes around). Here’s a training video of her when she was 3.5 months old. Must say, I’ve NEVER encountered a pup who could do this at that age:






For comparison, here’s a training video of Blue and his same-litter brother at the exact same age (3.5 months). To me, this is what I expect of “normal” intelligent, sociable poodle pups – as opposed to their genius sister:






Kevin


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