# Sugarfoot attacked by a pit bull



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Tonight, while we were out for a typical evening walk in our typical safe, suburban neighborhood, my Sugarfoot was attacked by a loose pit bull.

While I am imploring all of my friends to please send your prayers and your healing thoughts our way, I want to assure you that he’s alive, in no mortal danger, and will physically recover, though he is at the emergency vet overnight. I am much more concerned about the impact this horrible experience will have on his mental state and development. 

I’m writing tonight because I can’t sleep. I might as well write it all down now while it’s fresh on my mind. Let me tell you what happened.

This morning, I had bathed and groomed Sugarfoot, and if I do say so myself he looked stunning. (My Instagram friends were duly regaled with shots of his awesome beauty!) Then, later in the afternoon, James and I went to the Reliant Center to set up for the weekend’s show. When we got home, I took Sugarfoot for his evening walk. I came about that close to taking Pixie, my Italian Greyhound, along too, as I usually do, but I wanted to do some while-we-walk training with Sugar. 

We walked down into a court, and a couple with a young girl came out to the street to say hi. Sugarfoot is shy and wouldn’t let them pet him, but we talked about poodles for a little while, then I headed on down the street. When I was only a couple of houses down from them, a loose black and white pit bull came around the corner, down the court, and ran straight at us.

Now, I’ve been approached by dogs while walking before. In fact, about a year ago, while walking Pixie and Gimble, I was approached by a loose pit bull. It galumphed and played around us, and I ended up leashing it with Pixie’s leash, carrying her, and taking it home to put my dogs away, then walked it back into the neighborhood to locate its owner, who was quickly found. I can read canine body language, and this was not a puppy galumphing around. It _came at us._ Sugar, who’s already nervous about things like this, darted around me, trying to get away from this dog as it charged. All was confusion as I began yelling for help and trying to protect Sugarfoot, finally going to my knees—or being pulled to my knees? I don’t remember it all happened so fast--and wrapping my arms around him as the dog leaped at us. 

The dog was being pursued by a couple of young kids, and by this time the couple I’d been talking to had come out at my cries for help. The dog, after a few more lunges, ran on down the street, toward them. One of the chasing kids said, “I’m sorry!” and not kindly, my adrenaline pumping, I screamed at him, “Get your f***ing dog under control! He attacked us!”

Okay, that was all bad enough. But it wasn’t over. The kids weren’t able to catch their dog, and it turned around and came back at us, charging, just darting in and grabbing at Sugar while Sugar struggled and I held him tight—I didn’t dare let go of him. We were knocked over—I was now rolling on the ground, trying to get Sugarfoot underneath me, and now I was screaming for help in pure, unadulterated terror. I know I probably should have been worried about getting bitten, but I wasn’t even thinking that—and the dog was utterly focused on Sugarfoot. My poor dog was crying in fear and voided his bowels and bladder—and then the dog got a hold of him. It grabbed his flank and just—pulled, jerked at his flesh, like a dog would to a toy. I’m screaming, I’m holding him with all my strength, all these people are around, but _no one is grabbing that damn dog_ as he bit my dog and pulled. And Sugar is crying, and there’s nothing I can do, nothing. 

At last it let go, or someone got hold of it and pulled it off of us, something. By this time the adult in charge of the dog had shown up. I was shaking, just lying there on the sidewalk. At last I managed to sit up, take a look at Sugar. Thank God, the only wound on him was a puncture from where the dog grabbed and pulled.

I called my husband to come get us and take us to the vet. The owner of the pit bull was stoic but apologetic and said he would pay for any vet bills, and he assured us his dog was up to date on its shots and gave us its vet information.

So we took Sugarfoot to the emergency vet. All this time, I was agonizing over what a hideous setback this would be for my already-shy dog. And now he’s been attacked? How am I going to get him over this? James and I went into full, “La-di-da, everything is perfectly normal” mode. In the waiting room, he was doing sits, downs, and hand touches, all the little normal things that I’d ask him to do during that sort of downtime, in a perfectly normal way. He didn’t want to go through the doors coming in, and he shied away from a man entering the waiting room, but then he took a treat from the hand of a lady in the waiting room.

Turns out the puncture wound was somewhat deep and will need staples, but right now the worry is that there’s too much separation of the skin from the inner layers of muscle, due to how the dog yanked while biting, and he might need a drain, which is a more serious thing. He had to stay there at the vet. They brought him out to say bye, already heavily doped up on painkillers so seeming a little loopy. My heart is breaking. Our first night apart since I got him. 

I couldn’t protect him. I couldn’t help him. That dog was yanking at his flesh before my eyes, and there was nothing I could do. It’s killing me!

But you know, thank God I didn’t have my IG with me. I couldn’t have protected both of them at all; I would’ve had to hold Pixie up and leave Sugar to be attacked, or somehow try to shield both of them with my body—I shudder to think about it. The bite the other dog gave Sugar probably would have crippled Pixie.

I won’t be walking without pepper spray now. Yes, fifteen years of walking in this neighborhood without a single incident, but one is all it takes.

I guess it’s good the dog didn’t bite me. Assessing myself now, I see that I’ve got a pretty skinned and banged-up knee and elbow on my right side, and my entire thigh is covered with huge scratches that are even now purpling into aching bruises—these are probably from Sugarfoot’s toenails as we struggled.

Overall, it was one of the scariest, most intense things I’ve ever been through. Mostly, I’m worried about Sugarfoot being traumatized by this, becoming even *more* shy than he was already. More worried about other dogs, about kids, about people. With much thought, we decided he’s still going to come with us to the show. I don’t think I could stand him being at home alone all day; this way I can monitor him. He’ll be in his crate, which I can cover, and dogs and people will be walking by, but hopefully that will be a good thing, as he’ll see them and none of them will be hurting him. If we walk around with him, it will be with pocketfuls of A++ treats so that we can let him know that other people and dogs are *good* things to be around. We’re going to try to be really relaxed and matter-of-fact, but we’ve decided we’ve just got to take the “get right back on the horse” approach with him. Of course I’ll have to put off or limit severely the physical aspects of his training, but right now, I’m far more worried about his mental recovery than his physical recovery!

Please be wishing us luck in all of this. I’ll take some pictures tomorrow. This evening I just have one: the triage board at the emergency vet’s office. I snapped it while we were paying the bill on the way out, having said a very sad goodnight to a very brave young dog. Probably won’t be able to get back to the board until tomorrow evening, after the show, but I’ll report back then. I don’t know how I’m going to concentrate on showing Pixie tomorrow! James is telling me to come to bed, but I’m still pretty full of adrenaline. The vet just called to tell me that Sugarfoot was doing well, but she still wants to put the drain in. Better safe than sorry. I can’t wait to see him tomorrow.

Why did this happen to us?

--Q


----------



## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Quossum,

What a horrible day for you both! It is a blessing that you did not have Pixie. It is also good that you have the vet information, and the dog's owner's information. 

Most areas have dangerous dog by-laws. This dog has shown behaviour dangerous to the public, and other dogs. It must not be allowed to run free in the streets. What if next time it is a kid? I would report the incident. 

I will stick up for the well bred Staffies though, they are big sucks who will not do this sort of stuff. 

Paragon


----------



## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*Oh NO!!!*

I read your post with my heart in my throat the whole time!! Poor Sugar!!! Poor you!!!! I've never had a dog attacked by another dog but it must be just horrible!!

I'm so glad you prefaced the story with 'Sugar's going to be all right'. Physically anyway. And I am SO glad you didn't have the IG with you too!!

I would DEFINITELY call AC & give them the owners info & report it so it will be on record. And did you get the names of the couple that witnessed it? 

Hugs & kisses for Sugar's quick recovery!!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Oh, I am so sorry that this happened. You are all in my thoughts. Please give Sugarfoot a big hug from me, Tiger, and Millie. The image in my mind of Sugarfoot in such fear from what you wrote had me grimacing. Poor, poor pup.

Please keep us posted.


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Oh I'm so sorry, Q. I'm so sorry this happened to you and Sugarfoot. You did your best and we all know how much you love Sugarfoot and Sugarfoot knows it too. So don't blame yourself. It's not your fault. Rest up well so that you can be there for your pup when he comes home tomorrow.

Sending lots of poodle hugs your way.


----------



## dcyk (Nov 30, 2011)

Positive thoughts to Sugarfoot on his recovery, hope he will get well soon and that this event didn't have too big an impact on him.

Last month or so, there was a Pitbull attack on an elderly jogging man and it killed the man.

I'm wondering why do people still want Pits


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

How horrible! Please giive sugarfoot an extra big hug from all of us. 

You did protect him! You did save him from much worse. Please report that dog. You have his vets phone number. Call the pound. Who gives a whit if the dog had his vaccines, he was a viscious dog. A dog like that should not be loose and should not be having kids running after it. Thank goodness he didn't bite you. I could feel your terror in your words. 

Try to remember that dogs live in the moment. This may effect you for a long time, but hopefully all the good that is thrown Sugarfoots way will make him forget this horror.


----------



## momofthree (Apr 9, 2011)

I am so, so sorry that this happened to your sweet dog, and to you! How absolutely horrifying! I hope Sugarfoot heals up soon...emotionally as well as physically. 

And, I agree with the other posters- that dog needs to be reported and taken off the streets. It is viscous, and a danger to animals and people alike.


----------



## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*I am so sorry.*

I can't even begin to tell you how saddened I was to read of this horrific physical and psychic attack-but that you were so fearless in fending off this pit pull to save Sugarfoot is a testament to your love, devotion and sheer courage. What you did was amazing!
I've always been afraid of pit bulls and though we don't have any in our neighborhood, this incident is just why I hate to take my dogs for walks unless my husband comes along.
It is terrible that conscientious dog owners are penalized by dog owners who are irresponsible- so yes, if I were you, I'd also report this serious incident to the police. Maybe the owner will be more diligent in watching his dog in the future..maybe..
I am thinking of you and sweet Sugarfoot and wish you both a speedy recovery.
Give that boy a great big hug from me!


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

This was harrowing to read. Well done on protecting your dog, and I hope Sugarfoot recovers quickly. I would always take a stick or a sturdy umbrella on a walk, something you can use to keep a dangerous dog at arm's length if you have to.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

I'm so sad! Hug yourself and hug sweet sugar from fae.


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I am so sorry this happened. I will now take my pepper spray too. Your story may help the next dog. I am sending healing your way, so sorry. 

In a park in my town this same thing happened to a woman with two shih tuzs. She covered them with her body, but one got pulled away and killed. So glad your story had a differant ending.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh my heavens! I am so, so sorry you and your baby boy went through this. I was crying while I was reading it, imagining how incredibly helpless you must have felt! Big (((HUGS))) for you, and prayers for Sugarfoot's speedy and complete recovery. And thank God little Pixie was sat home. So sorry!


----------



## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear of this. The reality is that you are likely more shaken by the experience, and that your dog is going to read you and respond accordingly in the future. What can we do to help YOU get over this? (If you are fine, Sugarfoot will be, too...) 

And, I am off to buy some pepper spray, because I walk in areas with lots of random dogs - some off leash, or on broken leashes, and many who are just flat untrained. Thank you for the warning, and for the idea of how to feel (and maybe even be) safer when walking...

sarah


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What a nightmare. I am so sorry you and your boy had to suffer such a traumatic experience. I am thankful that you did not suffer worse than a few scrapes and bruises in the attack. You are on the right track helping your boy get over this physically and mentally. All you can do now is to report this dog. I would report it to both animal control and the police and make sure the owner at least pays the bills for the injuries sustained. Perhaps then the owner will think twice about being careless with an aggressive dog although that is hardly compensation for all you have been through. You were very brave to put yourself between the pit and your precious boy. A lot of people say they will do that but when it comes to real life dog attack terror takes over. ((hugs))


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

For the record if your dog is attacked by a pit bull (this does not apply to other breeds), take of your dog's leash (thinner the better). When it bites your dog, snake it around the pit's neck and choke it. I mean seriously choke it unconsious if need be (will not kill the dog, no worries). I would confiscate the dog and take it to the vet to test for communicable diseases (identify any risj to your dog beyond the bit would and infection). The owner's violated leash law and you can drop it off at a pound/shelter. The owner will have to pay a fine, licensing and vaccination to get the dog back. If they do, you now have their name and address to press charges for vet bills, your medical bills, transportation, etc.

Nobody can do this the first time. It's fast, it's scary, and you're never sure what is the right thing to do. I had the advantage of getting training on breaking dog fights. I've been inpredictable situations (know dog, see it coming) where I could do it "right". But who knows how I would respond if I felt ambushed!

I think every one should carry mace, a BIG stick, a couple cups of treats (good distraction for a stray dog), and a fine slip lead to choke out an attacking dog.

For a non-pit bull attacking dog, never approach the dog's head - they regrip, you will get hurt. Grab the dog around the flank and SPIN it off your dog. Keep turning or you will get bitten on the leg. Once the attacker is far enough away to chill out, use a spare leash to control the dog and turn it over to authorities - whether police or dropping off at a shelter.

This incidence deserves a police report. Maybe if you can make posters canvass the neighborhood, give candy to kids and find out where the dog came from and who is responsible? You deserve reinbursement for $ damage.


----------



## MamaTiff (Sep 23, 2011)

Oh my gosh! How scary! Poor Sugarfoot! I have had a pit run at me a few times. The dog belongs to my neighbor. The first time I was with my kids,the second I had Darby. The dog is relatively friendly, but intact and he has a frantic, unpredictable way about him and I don't trust him. There is something about the way he runs at me that just bothers me. It's not the run, it's the look on his face- almost like the way a lioness looks when chasing down her prey. I can picture the way the dog ran at you. It's intense and thank God you protected Sugar the way you did because you probably saved his life.

I wish him speedy recovery and I'm sure he will get through this!


----------



## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

OMG I am so upset and crying from just reading your account of what happened. I can't even begin to imagine what you and Sugarfoot went through. I am sending positive, healing vibes your way. You were so brave to keep the la-di-da attitude in the waiting room, I'd have been frantic, and freaked the dog out even more. You did an amazing job protecting Sugarfoot as well as you did. I hope he heals quickly and this horrible incident didn't do any permanent damage. BTW, what is the story with the loose pit? Has it been aggressive before? Why was it loose? 
Lily and I send get well wishes to you both!


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow what a terrifying experience! I'm really sorry that happened to you guys, and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect Sugarfoot. I hope you report that dog...I would be willing to bet this isn't the first time he has done that. 


I'll be praying for Sugarfoot's quick recovery, mentally and physically. Give him a hug and a kiss from Raven and Trevvor for me! 

As an afterthought, is it better to allow your dog to run away from an attacking dog if your dog is big and fast enough? Obviously if a pit attacked my mini or toy that wouldn't work, but we've been attacked by smaller dogs before and I just let Trevvor go to outrun it. Maybe that's not the best solution?


----------



## all that jazz (Feb 6, 2011)

I am horrified to hear of you and your baby's ordeal! Definitely report that dog and owner! He needs to be always leashed or taken off the streets.


----------



## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

The reality is that, If you had not stepped in, your dog would've most likely been savaged to death. The fact that he was loose is not really the issue, the fact that he attacked your dog, unprovoked (or perhaps, say, your toddler) IS. Make sure the vet, police, owner, and insurance agent are aware of that. 
I agree with posters who say your dog needs you to be confident about walking with him now..but I would NOT be surprised if it affects him permanently. If the pit had attacked my dog like he did yours, I would've done my best to kill him on the spot, by whatever available means. At the same time, if it were MY dog attacking unprovoked, I would put him down myself. I've seen dogs that kill dogs, I don't believe a second chance is in order. Sorry, I just feel that strongly about it and the danger such an animal poses.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

What a horrific experience, my heart was racing as I read your account of what happened. I am so glad Sugarfoot is going to be OK, at least physically. I do think your attitude will be very important going forward. I know that Jäger reads my body language and emotion to gage how he should react to a situation.

Let me say (and I am sure you are already aware) that what you did by getting in between the pit bull and your dog was VERY dangerous. You could have been severely hurt or (god forbid) even killed. 

That said, I would have done the exact same thing. Damn the risk, I'd do what I could to protect my dog. You might have saved his life. It was very brave.

Your story has prompted me to get some pepper spray. There is a dog-aggressive Rhodesian Ridgeback in my neighborhood. He charged us once before when Jäger was a puppy. I was in fear for my dog and myself. I did something dangerous, too, I picked up my dog and held him over my head. That Rhodesian probably weighs 90 or 100 pounds and could have easily knocked me down to get to the dog, but all I could think of was getting Jäger out of harm's way. 

I saw that dog again a few weeks ago. The owner (a man) had a baby stroller and the dog with him on a leash. He was talking to another neighbor and didn't have a tight grip on the dog. The dog saw us walking down the street and started growling and lunging and it was a miracle the owner managed to hang on to the leash. I am very concerned about this dog. It's time for the pepper spray.

Edited to add: It's nice that the owner is paying your vet bills, but it is vital that you call animal control and/or the police and make a formal report about this dog.


----------



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Don't know what to say... My heart was in my throat when I saw this post come from YOU  Awful thing to have happened, and I wish you and Sugar a very speedy recovery.

I'm glad they are putting in a drain. We are doing that quite a bit more frequently now with "small" punctures since twice in the last 6 years we had problems with tissue death underneath the puncture and having to go in and do a surgery to remove it. If we just go ahead and put a drain in first they dogs wouldn't have had to go through a full anesthetic and surgery for the second time.

Poor little Sugars gonna have an interesting haircut now I guess 

SPEEDY RECOVERY!

Rebecca and Lucy...


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Quossum,
I am so sad to hear about what happened, and so angry! 

I am so sick of the pit bull crap. Even before reading your post I was planning to have pepper spray with me whenever I walk my future pup. (Due to be born in 11 days). I may also carry a golf club or other weapon. Any pit bull that attacks us, I will kill the damn thing.

Here's wishing Sugarfoot a speedy and complete recovery!!


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

My heart just sank when I saw the title of this post. Thank God you are both (relatively) alright!

I don't care what some people say, I have no use for pit bulls. Every one should be assumed to be a ticking time bomb just waiting for the right trigger to explode. Of course, no can say what that trigger might be. Some will never meet their trigger, and all will be well. But for those that do, my Poodle Newsfeed will have yet another story headlined "Poodle killed by Pitbull." New stories with that headline appear almost every day, and I am so very happy that you and Sugarfoot aren't in one.

I'm going to start carrying one of those ski-pole-like walking sticks, which has a metal point. Going to sharpen it, too.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I am so sorry that happened. A similar situation with Jake, when he was a little over a year old, but it was a doberman. And, the doberman picked him up, shook him, and had bitten him several times. Jake screaming all the while. And, he did physically recover, but had fear aggression issues his entire life. What a horrible ordeal. I also filed charges on the owner. I hope you do the same.

I do so hope Sugarfoot heals and does not have the ongoing issues my Jake had, all as a result of irresponsible dog ownership;.


----------



## Wilbur5 (Jan 25, 2012)

I am crying over your ordeal! How horrifying. You are extremely blessed that Sugarfoot was not hurt worse and that you were not hurt as well. 

I truly know how you feel. I also have a shy dog and have been working very diligently to help him overcome this issue, just to be set back by irrisponsible pet owners. A few weeks ago, I had the exact same thing happen to me. A pit mix attacked Gibbs while we were on our evening walk. I did the same as you, not thinking of what could have happened to me, and protected my dog, although he was bit a couple of times. The physical trauma has healed, but psychologically he has regressed. It is so heartbreaking.

I too went out and purchased pepper spray. I also learned that pepper spray does not really affect pit bulls. You have to really saturate their face with it and it may only give you a small window to escape. Tortoise, thanks for the great advise about having an extra lead (or something of that nature) to choke them. I will definately be following that advise.

I hope you were able to get some rest last night. Hugs and Healing energy coming your and Sugarfoots way. Please keep us posted on Sugarfoot's recovery.


----------



## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I am so glad that sugarfoot will be ok. What a horrible experience. Please keep us posted on how he is doing!


----------



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Attack*

I am so sorry! Hornet spray is a good thing to carry, it shoot a stream up to 20 feet and burns in the eyes. Also less chance of it blowing back and affecting you. A air horn in a can is another good thing for protection. 
You were very courageous and with some time Sugarfoot will forget, dogs live in the moment.


----------



## jazzipoodle (Mar 30, 2010)

I am so sorry about the terrifying ordeal you and Sugarfoot had.I am glad you two are mostly ok. I would be a nervous wreck after what you went through. I hope something is done about the dog, he's a danger to society. I hope Sugarfoot has a speedy recovery.


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

I'm so upset to read this. I'm so sorry that Sugar and you have to live thru this ordeal. I'm sending good thoughts to Sugar. Charlie and I wish him a fast recovery. It is difficult to face such a sudden attack and feeling helpless at the same time. Sending positive thoughts to you too. Sugarfoot has such a brave Mom.

Last week, Charlie almost got attack by an off-leash mini pinscher who slowly but surely walk toward Charlie in an attack stand and growling deeply. When I realized that this dog is off leash, I calmly moved Charlie's leash to make him stand behind me. I was mentally ready to kick this pinscher if he tried anything. Luckily, he peed then walked away.

Thank you for the suggestions. I will bring a big stick from now on. 

After that dog left us, I was freaked out but I don't think Charlie is aware of the danger but who knows, he still love his walk. I did investigate who own that dog and I went to his house to tell him that it is necessary to keep your dog in a leash. I warned him that the next time I see his dog off leash, I will call animal control. I hope I do the right thing.


----------



## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

Before any of you start carrying a stick/club/etc be sure to check your local laws. It is illegal in several states to carry such things so make sure you know what you can legally carry and what you can't.


----------



## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

Wondering if the agressor's owner would compensate for Sugarfoot's therapy?? : )


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> Wow what a terrifying experience! I'm really sorry that happened to you guys, and I sincerely hope it doesn't affect Sugarfoot. I hope you report that dog...I would be willing to bet this isn't the first time he has done that.
> 
> 
> I'll be praying for Sugarfoot's quick recovery, mentally and physically. Give him a hug and a kiss from Raven and Trevvor for me!
> ...


Most people say let your dog go. I say at least attempt getting control of the attacker before then. (Especially if your dog is not a fast runner.  ) It depends on your dog. I've heard plenty of reports of the owner's dog hanging around. But what if you had a lost, injured dog?! I think you have to know your own dog.


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

I would advise caution if you are going to try to grab hold of an attacking dog unless you have been trained in this. If a dog is attacking you or your dog, do not worry about killing or harming it. It's the dog's owner's responsibility to keep it under control and their lookout if it gets hurt by someone trying to defend themselves from it. You cannot replace your own dog's life and you cannot replace your fingers if it gets hold of your hands, or your eyesight/ability to go out in public without being stared at in horror if it manages to get in your face.

I've never had to use this and I don't know how accurate it is, but I used to do archery with a woman who trained police attack dogs. She said that if you are attacked by a dog, all dogs and indeed all quadrupeds have a weak spot at the front of the chest, between the forelegs. If you jam something hard into this place, you put pressure on the dog's heart and can kill it this way. I usually carry with me a very well-made dual purpose umbrella/walking stick with a three-inch steel spike, and I would advise using something like this to ram a vicious dog in the chest front-on. Using something like this means you keep your hands out of the dog's reach. If a dog has knocked you to the ground and is already too close for you to keep it at arm's length, get hold of it by the forelegs, jam your knee in its chest, and pull.

I would not use pepper spray etc. as it may not be legal in some places, and you will be in an even bigger mess you manage to spray it into the wind and it goes in your own eyes.

Re. legality of sticks. Use a walking stick or something appropriate for a pedestrian, not an obvious weapon like a policeman's truncheon or a riot baton, and you should be fine. 

Edit: I would agree with not letting go of your dog either, although if your dog is being pursued by a horse, cow, or anything other than a dog this would be the correct choice. For one thing, it could run into a road or not stop running at all, and secondly, a frightened dog will bolt from a pursuing dog and scream, and the running, screaming dog is likely to trigger even more of a prey drive response from the aggressor. If the vicious dog does get hold of your dog some distance away from you, you are limited by what you can do to help it by your own running speed and how long it takes you to reach it, and the dog could be dead or badly injured by then.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

stealthq said:


> Before any of you start carrying a stick/club/etc be sure to check your local laws. It is illegal in several states to carry such things so make sure you know what you can legally carry and what you can't.


I carry a very, very heavy old maglite flashlight. Legal to carry anywhere and can inflict serious damage if needed. 

On working dog boards the topic of protecting your dog from strays comes up often (as many of their dogs are extremely valuable in addtion to being well-loved). Everything from concealed carry firearms to walking sticks. There A LOT of people concerned about safety from stray and loose dogs.

Nobody wants to hurt another person or animal, but we are responsible to protect our own.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

zyrcona said:


> I've never had to use this and I don't know how accurate it is, but I used to do archery with a woman who trained police attack dogs. She said that if you are attacked by a dog, all dogs and indeed all quadrupeds have a weak spot at the front of the chest, between the forelegs. If you jam something hard into this place, you put pressure on the dog's heart and can kill it this way. I usually carry with me a very well-made dual purpose umbrella/walking stick with a three-inch steel spike, and I would advise using something like this to ram a vicious dog in the chest front-on. Using something like this means you keep your hands out of the dog's reach. If a dog has knocked you to the ground and is already too close for you to keep it at arm's length, get hold of it by the forelegs, jam your knee in its chest, and pull.


Dogs do have a weakness in the chest, but you're not going to stop or kill a dog that way. Plus there's a huge bite risk to your face. I've verified this one with my vet. I have a friend in the UK and they were taught to stop an agressive dog by taking it's front legs and pushing them apart. :afraid:

The fastest way to stop a dog without, say a gunshot or stab wound, is to take the air away by choking. It is truly not safe. I have 7 scars on my right wrist, hand, and pinky fingers from protecting myself from a dog attack. It might be fast, it takes 1 - 2 minutes.

For something lesser than a pit bull, you can take off your leather belt and give it a whack, geez, that HURTS. A 1" nylon leash whack hurts like crazy too. It would send most dogs running. But for a pit, you will amp it up more. 

If you choke out a dog, muzzle and tether the dog while it is unconscious (if you don't kill it). It will come back madder than ever.

Does everyone know how to make an emergency muzzle from a leash?


----------



## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

What a nightmare I am so sorry that happened to you and your pup.

On my street we had a bad family move into a rental, they've finally been evicted, but they had two pits, one of which was an unneutered male, that they allowed to roam freely basically. For months folks around here just stopped walking their dogs on this street and had to drive down the hill to do it.

I just think at this point, any pit puts such a serious hurt on their neighbors' quality of life and peace of mind than they have to be considered a per se nuisance. That one pit had such a huge impact on the whole street.

Ironically though at the SPCA here, you can choose between a chihuahua, a chihuahua mix, a pit, or a pit mix. That's 99% of the dogs there, no joke. So with the push for shelter dogs, the # of pits is probably increasing around here. Those shelter dogs are personality tested obviously but you don't know that.


----------



## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

tortoise said:


> Does everyone know how to make an emergency muzzle from a leash?


no. can you post a video or an explanation?

sarah


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

sarahmurphy said:


> no. can you post a video or an explanation?
> 
> sarah


coming soon...


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

A few thoughts on these ideas for dealing with a pit bull attack..

I dont think turning your dog loose to run away is a good idea at all. Unless youre walking a greyhound, how do you know that your dog can outrun the pit bull? A few seconds after releasing, say, a standard poodle to run from a pit bull, the two dogs are probably 100 yards away. If the pit bull runs down your dog at that point, your dog's best hope (you) is out of the equation. Not to mention that your dog would be dragging a leash. If he runs into the woods or something and the leash gets caught on something, he's in for an abrupt stop, and then he's a sitting duck.

As for choking the attacker, I dont think thats a good defense either. A dog moving towards you to attack isnt just going to let you walk up and put something around its neck, so it seems worthless as a preemptive measure. Even once the pit bull has a hold of your dog, I dont think it would be easy to get something around his neck, I think there would be a lot of frantic motion. Once you have something around his neck, I think it would take a lot of strength to maintain control and a lot of time for it to take effect. Even if it only took 15 seconds, how much damage could a pit bull do to another dog in 15 seconds? I would think a lot.

I dont know how effective pepper spray is on pit bulls. I know hikers carry it in grizzly bear country. I dont know how much of a controlled stream comes out or if wind could likely blow it in your face. The hornet spray might be better if it comes in cans small enough to be carried on every walk conveniently.

The idea I like the best is the sharpened hiking pole. They are easy to walk with (obviously), dont look like a weapon, and they come with a rubber tip that goes over the metal tip so you dont accidently stick yourself. I dont know how to sharpen the point though. The tips on those things are made of carbide, a ridiculously hard material. I have a pair of hiking poles that Ive used on many a rocky trail and the carbide tips show no wear at all.

When youre not walking your dog, the hiking pole could be used for picking up trash (haha) or climbing, say, the Harding Icefield Trail in Alaska. :biggrin:


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Processing now. This is unedited video, I can't figure out how to censor out when I lean over and my shirt isn't covering enough... :blush:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKiRxfovhbM&feature=youtu.be


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

taem said:


> What a nightmare I am so sorry that happened to you and your pup.
> 
> On my street we had a bad family move into a rental, they've finally been evicted, but they had two pits, one of which was an unneutered male, that they allowed to roam freely basically. For months folks around here just stopped walking their dogs on this street and had to drive down the hill to do it.
> 
> ...


Pit bulls are a banned breed in my country. Staffordshire Bull Terriers aren't (presumably because the breed is native), so the shelters are full of those instead. I hear a lot of people moaning that they are wonderful family dogs, but personally I don't understand why a civilian needs a pet dog that was bred throughout its history to attack other dogs. :-( There are so many other breeds one can choose from.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Jacamar - you have to wait until the dog has a grip - is already biting your dog - in order to get a leash on a choke. You can leash around the hips too if the dog isn't biting. This is worts case, not preveting injury to your dog.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

taem said:


> What a nightmare I am so sorry that happened to you and your pup.
> 
> On my street we had a bad family move into a rental, they've finally been evicted, but they had two pits, one of which was an unneutered male, that they allowed to roam freely basically. For months folks around here just stopped walking their dogs on this street and had to drive down the hill to do it.
> 
> ...



What a shame that the quality of life was altered on your street by a pit bull. Its because of situations like that that communities ban pit bulls ("breed specific legislation"). I certainly support it; I dont see why people shouldnt have the right to live in a place where they dont have to worry about a pit bull mauling their dog or their child. But the pro-pit bull lobby is very loud. (Google "bsl" if youre unfamiliar..)

The SPCA is full of pit bulls here too. My guess is that the reason so many pit bulls are turned in is not just the difficulty in training them, but also the type of people who choose pit bulls in the first place.


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Jacamar said:


> I dont know how effective pepper spray is on pit bulls. I know hikers carry it in grizzly bear country. I dont know how much of a controlled stream comes out or if wind could likely blow it in your face.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Ummm... it's not so much the breed of dog, but that it was left to roam. Shame on the people that drove away instead of calling animal control EVERY TIME the dog was loose.

I love pitties. Hate all the bad owners. They are NOT for most people and ones that definitely should never have them seen to be the ones getting them. :argh:

The only reason breed is valid in this discussion about protecting a dog from a stray attacking dog is because pit bulls have a different biting style. You can break a fight with a pit bull sometimes easier than with another dog. You're more likely to get bitten by your (terrified, in pain) dog than by the pit.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Jacamar said:


> What a shame that the quality of life was altered on your street by a pit bull. Its because of situations like that that communities ban pit bulls ("breed specific legislation"). I certainly support it; I dont see why people shouldnt have the right to live in a place where they dont have to worry about a pit bull mauling their dog or their child. But the pro-pit bull lobby is very loud. (Google "bsl" if youre unfamiliar..)
> 
> The SPCA is full of pit bulls here too. My guess is that the reason so many pit bulls are turned in is not just the difficulty in training them, but also the type of people who choose pit bulls in the first place.


There is no place you don't have to worry about a dog mauling your child. Even in cities with BSL existing for over a decade, pit bull attacks are still happening. BSL doesn't work. Non-breed specific dangerous dog laws do work.

Pit bulls are exceptionally easy to train.

But you're right about the people that choose them. :argh: Did you know that after a dog bite incident in the media, purchases and adoptions of that breed increase! Any breed. It's most noticeable when it's a "rare" breed.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I am so terribly sorry about what happened to Sugar, and wish him a speedy mental and physical recover. However: 


dcyk said:


> I'm wondering why do people still want Pits





LEUllman said:


> I don't care what some people say, I have no use for pit bulls. Every one should be assumed to be a ticking time bomb just waiting for the right trigger to explode.
> 
> I'm going to start carrying one of those ski-pole-like walking sticks, which has a metal point. Going to sharpen it, too.





taem said:


> I just think at this point, any pit puts such a serious hurt on their neighbors' quality of life and peace of mind than they have to be considered a per se nuisance.





Jacamar said:


> What a shame that the quality of life was altered on your street by a pit bull. Its because of situations like that that communities ban pit bulls ("breed specific legislation"). I certainly support it; I dont see why people shouldnt have the right to live in a place where they dont have to worry about a pit bull mauling their dog or their child.


This is all incredibly unfair of you! Honestly, I have been nothing but thrilled with the open minded, educated, common sense approach of the people I have encountered on this forum until I read these comments. How many times have you been asked, "Oh, I've heard that poodles are mean"? I get asked this all the time, and it angers me to absolutely no end. It's not the BREED that is the problem. It's the people that own them. It's poor breeding practices that produce dogs with no mind paid to the temperament and suitability of the breeding stock. If this was ANY OTHER BREED all of you would be pointing fingers at the carelessness of the owner, not at the breed of the dog! Pit Bull types make wonderful companions, until a terrible owner gets ahold of them. ANY breed, including all of our precious poodles, can be dog aggressive. There are many other breeds out there that have been selectively bred to be aggressive in some circumstances. Nowadays this is obscene, but that doesn't mean that these dogs are all inherently bad, or that they should be banned from existence. 



tortoise said:


> There is no place you don't have to worry about a dog mauling your child. Even in cities with BSL existing for over a decade, pit bull attacks are still happening. BSL doesn't work. Non-breed specific dangerous dog laws do work.
> 
> Pit bulls are exceptionally easy to train.
> 
> But you're right about the people that choose them. :argh: Did you know that after a dog bite incident in the media, purchases and adoptions of that breed increase! Any breed. It's most noticeable when it's a "rare" breed.


Exactly! Tortoise you hit the nail on the head with this one. Your children and pets could be mauled by any loose dog, not just pit bulls. It is the owners that need to be regulated.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Ive been through enough pit bull debates on other forums that Im getting bored with them. The pit bull advocates either dont understand probability, are in denial about the history of the breed, dont recognize the power of genetics to influence behavior, or cant use the facts to reach logical conclusions.


The bottom paragraph of this article is interesting. One tireless defender of pit bulls got a taste of irony.

Spate of Pit Bull Attacks Has Nation on Alert - The Daily Beast


----------



## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

I am so sorry you went through that! It is incredibly scary! It happened to me back in Feb. I took my 2 spoos to a local dog park. A man walked in with a pitbull and immediately the people I was standing with said "we heard fido (can't remember dogs name) got in a fight yesterday?" he said yes and the owner blamed it on my dog but I don't think he started it. At that very moment my 2 spoos were sitting next to me one on either side. I was standing between them facing the man and his pit. Before he got that last word out his dog snapped and lunged at rusty and grabbed him by the neck. I yelled HEY in my manliest pack leader voice (I am a 5'0" 120 lb woman) and started to throw myself on top of the pit. My two children (6 & 9) by the way were standing there watching this entire situation unfold. On top of me and the dogs jumped the pits owner. It was crazy but between my yelling and jumping on him and his owner jumping on him he let go. Rusty was curled up into a ball cowarding and crying. I picked him up put Lola on a leash and took dogs and kids outta there ASAP! The dumbass owner said.... "hey you don't have to leave" I said "are u leaving?" he said no... Dumbass! Luckily rusty's wounds were superficial but what I want to tell you is that rusty to was / is a shy dog.... And he is fine.... Actually he is better than before because my dog trainer among other things had us attend an agility class ASAP to get him back out there and past any issues from the attack. Oh and get this... 2 weeks later we were at the agility park which is side by side with the
Pet park where the attack happened.... During class we all heard a dog fight break out in the park and when I looked .... Sure as sh**!! It was him!!! Told my trainer... They called the park ranger and he was permanently banned from the park.... I have no idea why that man kept subjecting other dogs to his dog's aggression!!! Im so glad sugarfoot will b ok!!! poor baby :-( and poor mommy!! So scary !


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Jacamar if you're bored, you're picking at the wrong group of people. I've successfully fought BSL on a city and state level. Bring it on! :aetsch:

In all seriousness, if it worked I would support it. If banning a short-list of dog breeds would stop dog attacks I would support it. But history (hundreds of years of history) and current statistics don't support it.

If I'm a dog park and a pit type dog comes in I leave. I'm not stupid. And I'm not trusting either.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Jacamar said:


> Ive been through enough pit bull debates on other forums that Im getting bored with them. The pit bull advocates either dont understand probability, are in denial about the history of the breed, dont recognize the power of genetics to influence behavior, or cant use the facts to reach logical conclusions.
> 
> 
> The bottom paragraph of this article is interesting. One tireless defender of pit bulls got a taste of irony.
> ...


I don't exactly think that attacks on my itelligence are the best way to prove your point, but if that's how you do things :/ 

Since in pursuing a degree in behavioral genetics, I consider myself fairly educated on the matter. I'm also aware of the facts that pit bull types are one of the most grossly overbred types of dogs out there, so yes there are a lot of statistics on them. These are blown way out of proportion by media attention. Yes, many people breed them specifically to be aggressive. I could breed a line of Labrador retrievers to be aggressive if I were so inclined to do so. But even the genetics argument falls back on the owners and breeders of the dogs. The proper legislation against owners and breeders of these "aggressive" animals will fix the problem much quicker than breed bashing. I have no intentions here to argue or debate with anyone, and I will not do such on this thread. I simply wanted to call attention to some very biased and unfair statements being made. This thread is about poor Sugarfoot who was the victim of a terrible attack by a dog who should not have been allowed to roam free.


----------



## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

I can assure you I am not stupid or trusting either. That's why my dogs were sitting next to me as he approached. This all happened within 1-2 minutes of him walking in.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

tortoise said:


> I've successfully fought BSL on a city and state level.
> 
> If I'm a dog park and a pit type dog comes in I leave.



OK. :laugh:


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Jdcollins said:


> I can assure you I am not stupid or trusting either. That's why my dogs were sitting next to me as he approached. This all happened within 1-2 minutes of him walking in.


That gave you 1 - 2 minutes to leave.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

My heart is racing just reading your post. This is my worst nightmare..as Im sure it is for many people. Im so mad that people are so irresponsible with their dogs. So sorry this happened to you both. Sending your calming and healing prayers.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Sookster said:


> I don't exactly think that attacks on my itelligence are the best way to prove your point, but if that's how you do things :/



In your previous post, you said, "I have been nothing but thrilled with the open minded, educated, common sense approach of the people I have encountered on this forum until I read these comments". So you implied that we were not open minded, educated, or sensible, and now your gonna play the victim? 



Sookster said:


> These are blown way out of proportion by media attention.



How many people in this very thread have posted that their dogs were attacked by pit bulls?? That is not media hype, that is reality.




Sookster said:


> Yes, many people breed them specifically to be aggressive.


Yep, youre saving me the typing.





Sookster said:


> I could breed a line of Labrador retrievers to be aggressive if I were so inclined to do so.



Yep, but you didnt. And neither did anyone else. Thats the point. Pit bulls were bred to be dog killers, while other breeds were not. 




Sookster said:


> But even the genetics argument falls back on the owners and breeders of the dogs.


Yes. If youre looking for the source of the original sin, its the breeders who made the breed what it is. But now that the breed is what it is, there is nothing closed minded, uneducated, or insensible about recognizing the danger and making laws that protect dogs and people from the menace that the breeders created.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

On the pitbull issue, the trouble is there are far too many of them kept by far too many irresponsible owners. Some are sweethearts, but others are not. They were originally bred to kill other dogs and be nice to people. Some only attack other dogs (as seems to be the case with the one who attacked Sugarfoot). Because of irresponsible breeding, some have translated that attack instinct to people as well as other dogs. Still others would not do either of those things. 

My personal experience having my whippet suffer an unprovoked attack by a pit and accrueing a large emergency vet bill leaves me with no love lost on the breed. I was so horrified by my bleeding and torn up dog, I grabbed him and ran for the car instead of getting the owners information. The owner only said, Oh, sorry, and took off with the dog. I have no love lost on the breed or most of those who own them. 

I know intellectually there are nice pits. I have seen tons of nice pits in UKC being shown (a testamant to people trying to better the breed). I still leave the dog park when they show up and cross to the opposite side of the street when they walk by with their owners. 

Our pound is full to the brim with pitbulls. A neighboring city has instituted a fine for unspayed and unneutered pitbulls over the age of 6 months. My homeowners insurance specifically excludes coverage for any damage caused by a pitbull. If it wasn't statistically significant, my homeowners insurance would not do that. 

I know and have met lovely, friendly pitbulls. I used to love all dogs. Unfortunately, I no longer love pitbulls. That makes me sad, but they scare the hell out of me. They are too unpredictable. One moment wagging tail happy, next moment attack. You don't know which one is nice and which one is not. 

The dog that attacked Sugarfoot should be put to sleep. It was a totally unprovoked attack.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Quossum, I do hope you chime in later tonight with how Sugarfoot is doing. We are all thinking of you (and him). I am trying to figure out what I can bring along on my walks to protect us. Pepperspray doesn't always work. It needs to be something small and efficient that will fit in my pocket. I like the idea of hornet spray. I wonder if it comes in tiny cans? I am going to check.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Travel size aerosol hairspray. If you can get it in the eyes. OUCH!! :angel:


----------



## Bobbi (Apr 20, 2012)

I really feel bad for you.. glad Sugarfoot wasn't worst,those pitts can kill in a flash... thats the only thing they can do.. I don't understand why the breed is still around.. usually men get them that lack in other areas.. sorry but thats my opinion...Get a can of pepper spray and a big 7 battery Mag light.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I am so glad that Sugarfoot is okay! Luckily he has great owners who can help him bounce back emotionally. Your story was so vivid, it had my heart thumping. I just cannot imagine what I would do in that situation. Probably the same thing, except I cannot pick up Leroy (I can pick up Louis though). I have had many loose dogs come up to us and luckily nothing serious happened. On walks, I analyze where I would run if some dog came flying at me. Of course I wouldn't be able to run very far. I've thought, "maybe I can hop into the bed of that pick-up..." but of course a frenzied dog would just jump right in. I've thought of carrying pepper spray as well, but I would probably spray it in my own eyes, and my dog's eyes. I thought maybe a pocket knife would help, but this would mean you have to get close to the attacking dog. I could always carry a gun (with the proper license) but I'd probably shoot my own foot and my own dog with my terrible aim. The point is, we just don't know what we would do in that frantic situation even if we think we are prepared. You did the bravest thing you could, and what had to be done. I look forward to hearing about Sugarfoot's recovery.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Jacamar said:


> ... now your gonna play the victim?


The only victim I see is poor Sugarfoot and the unfortunate animals that end up with the label "vicious" simply because they look a certain way. I really can't believe all of the hate going on in this thread. Do y'all not think that there are members of this forum who own pit bulls, wonderful ones at that? Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I don't think anyone should be insensitive about the breed of dog someone chooses to love.


----------



## Tonjad (Mar 12, 2012)

Bless your hearts!! I was horrified reading this  I am so sorry it happened to you ... I too am glad you didn't have your other dog with you that may have been hurt much worse..prayers for Sugarfoots quick recovery...........


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm back with a report!

First, I apologize for mentioning the breed of dog that attacked Sugarfoot; I should have known that the thread would become a BSL "thing." On the other hand, I knew if I didn't mention the breed, everyone would have been wondering! The dog's owner said it was a "pit bull, mixed with lab." Well, I'm pretty good at breed-calling, and if there was lab mixed in there, it must've been back in the family tree somewhere. But maybe that's why this dog didn't grab and hold; it grabbed and tugged. I have nothing against pits per se, though as a breed it does seem their bite quality is dangerous and there are a lot of them with dog aggression issues--and a lot of them, sadly, with ignorant owners. It so happens there's a friend of ours in Agility who shows a Staffordshire Terrier who's a sweetheart. They weren't at today's show, but next time we're at the same show I'm going to ask her if I can walk Sugar by her dog while giving him (Sugar) the most bestest treats. 

So, here's a picture of Sugarfoot's wound.










Looks pretty gruesome, doesn't it? You can see where the dog's mouth closed on his flank.

Sugarfoot came to the show with us (with the vet's approval, and it wasn't like I was going to leave him at home alone!), and to our absolute wonder and amazement, he did really, really well. If anything, he did *better* than he normally might have. Maybe it was the drugs, or the fact that the cone of shame acted sort of like the blinders on a horse and kept scary things out of sight, but he did really well. We walked him around where and when it wasn't too crowded, and he didn't shy from dogs (though he backed away from a couple that walked toward him boldly), and he took treats from all sorts of random people. Strangely, there were a couple of people who inexplicably scared him and had him backing away, giving a couple of low barks, but even those won him over with treats. 

We walked by large dogs and small ones, lots of black and white ones (no shortage of black and white dogs at an Agility trial), and got tons of sympathetic cooing. Most of the time he spent in his crate, sleeping, with the cover pulled over three sides and a small fan on (even though we were inside in air conditioning, I thought he'd like the breeze). The only time he'd show discomfort was when first getting up from a rest, and he'd turn and want to bite at the drain in his hip. Luckily, the cone kept him from damaging himself.

Here are a couple of shots of him in his cone.

















We just acted perfectly normally, didn't coddle him or "comfort" him at all, though I had treats on me all the time and slipped him one when we walked by large dogs. Sometimes he'd stop and just look around, studying a dog in the distance, and we would stand there, let him look, and then when he made the decision to move on, praise him for getting in step with us and going on. Let him build his confidence at his own pace. At one point, he started grabbing at his leash to tug on it, despite the cone. Now, that's cool! And yes, I made him do his Crate Games to come in and out of his crate. 

You know, I'm really hoping this is one of those "That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger" deals. Sugar is an extremely intelligent dog. Today, his whole demeanor, his whole attitude, was sort of like..."I survived that. I survived _that._ None of this other s*** can scare me now, because _I survived *that.*_" 

I know there will still be hurdles to get over, spookiness to work through, but overall I feel really confident. Of course it has had a huge effect on me, too. I think I was suffering from latent shock today, because I was like in a dream. At times the horror of it shook me, as I looked in on this innocent little puppy with that big shaved wound, and thought again and again, _why?_ Then I'd feel so grateful we were relatively okay. Then I'd feel angry, at myself (why, oh why did I take that walk?), at the owner of the dog, at the universe. Little things like getting Q's or not didn't matter so much--things were more in perspective. 

The show was really fun. I found tokipoke over at the Standard Poodle ring with Leroy. Oh, my gosh, is he *stunning* as a giant Bedlington! Tokipoke came and watched Pixie do the world's worst FAST run in Agility--ah, well! There were lots of other cool poodle sightings; I'll have to post some pictures later.

But, anyway, Sugarfoot's doing fine. He was back to mischief at home, chasing poor Hobbit around and trying to hump her, just a typical day, ya' know? The cone is merely an annoyance. But I can't wait to be able to cradle his soft, pretty head in my lap again.

The outpouring of love and support here has been amazing to read. Lots of good tips about walk safety, too. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. It made me feel so much better, and I think your energy and healing thoughts came to Sugar and helped him at this stressful time. And to me. Definitely to me.

Thank you again. He's going to be okay.










Love,
--Q and Sugarfoot


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Horrible looking wound but I'm so glad to see Sugarfoot is up, about, and doing so well!!


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Quossum said:


> Sugarfoot came to the show with us (with the vet's approval, and it wasn't like I was going to leave him at home alone!), and to our absolute wonder and amazement, he did really, really well. If anything, he did *better* than he normally might have. Maybe it was the drugs, or the fact that the cone of shame acted sort of like the blinders on a horse and kept scary things out of sight, but he did really well. We walked him around where and when it wasn't too crowded, and he didn't shy from dogs (though he backed away from a couple that walked toward him boldly), and he took treats from all sorts of random people. Strangely, there were a couple of people who inexplicably scared him and had him backing away, giving a couple of low barks, but even those won him over with treats.
> 
> 
> We just acted perfectly normally, didn't coddle him or "comfort" him at all, though I had treats on me all the time and slipped him one when we walked by large dogs. Sometimes he'd stop and just look around, studying a dog in the distance, and we would stand there, let him look, and then when he made the decision to move on, praise him for getting in step with us and going on. Let him build his confidence at his own pace. At one point, he started grabbing at his leash to tug on it, despite the cone. Now, that's cool! And yes, I made him do his Crate Games to come in and out of his crate.
> ...


Hey, Gimble had a great run! Pixie looked like she was having fun! I could see the gears turning in their heads. It's amazing how quickly dogs have to think while still paying attention to their owners, AND running! It was great seeing you at the show. I think it's great that you are including Sugarfoot in the activities. That is what you would have done before anyway. Best to keep the "pack" together. Louis is a shy, small dog who fears all kinds of stuff, but I will still bring him to the show. The best reassurance for a dog is that they know we are there for them, as a leader and protector. You are doing a fine job of that!


----------



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Thank you so much for taking the time to update us! You were in my thoughts quite a bit today! Glad you are both on the road to recovery and so wish I had a "poodle friend" like you to go to shows with! 

Rebecca


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Such good news! Drains always look like something out of a horror movie to me. Sending healing thoughts to both of you, and I'm glad that y'all were still able to enjoy the show. Might I add, despite his injury Sugarfoot still looks dashing


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yah, sugarfoot is beautiful! So glad he is up and about! Thank you for taking the time to post about him. It's neat that he was able to go to the show with you, too. It sounds like the perfect place for him to be right after that. I am sure he is aware that you protected him. He knows he can count on you and that may make him bolder. 

As far as pitbulls, I am sorry the thread took a turn, but you just don't hear about that poodle torn up by a cocker spaniel or golden retriever. It always seems to be a pitbull.  I do hope you report it. If the dog was young, he can easily continue to get worse. The next dog may not be so lucky.


----------



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Thank you for the update on Sugar, Q! The wound looks worse than I imagined but I'm glad that he's doing okay, both physically and emotionally. 

You have every right to include a description of the attacker. Poodles, as well as other breeds, bite too. It's more about how owners manage their dogs. And somehow, a lot of pit bull owners don't have what are required to manage this breed and these owners are the ones that give this breed a bad name.


----------



## annadee (May 15, 2012)

Poor Sugarfoot. I'm glad to see she's fine. The attack sounds horrifying, I remember my own experience with Max all too well. It was the scariest thing in the world, I was in tears by the end of it.

I also would like to say that my Max got attacked by a Pit Bull once too. While I'm always wary of Pit Bulls, it is not the Pit Bull that I don't like. It's the humans that breed Pit Bulls to be fighting dogs that I don't like. I am sure that there are plenty of responsible Pit Bull breeders (or American Staffordshire Terrier) that are working hard to breed only friendly family dogs into their lines. So I don't think it is fair to discriminate against breeds.

I know so many people that own Pit Bulls and Pit Bull mixes that are responsible owners and have never had an accident with them. I also have a best friend that had a Pit Bull that had to be put to sleep because she attacked a dog. I will never own a Pit Bull myself, because I'm not the right person to own such a dog, but I will never discriminate against a certain breed.

And for the record, I have heard of a lab attacking another dog, I am a member of a labrador retriever forum. As rare as it is heard of, you'd be surprised how often it actually occurs.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

So glad to see Sugarfoot out and about! Well wishes for a speedy recovery.

I am super concerned with all of the pepperspray comments. While I think it's reasonable for everyone to want to keep their dogs safe, I disagree in 99% of the situations with the use of pepperspray. I recently did a post about it on another thread here.

I used to try to post this link at least once a year.. suffering from some severe slackeritude it seems. I REALLY hope that you all take the time to read it, to think about it. If you have to do this.. make sure you know how. It works, it works well and I can recommend it from first hand experience. I can also recommend not using pepperspray from first hand experience.

Leerburg | How to Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt!


----------



## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Ack that pic looks gruesome, hopefully it looks far worse than it is. I'm glad Sugarfoot doesn't seem traumatized by the attack. I personally would meet with a dog behaviorist though, just in case. But I'm paranoid like that.

Are there special steps you take after an attack like that to minimize any possible damage to the coat? Not something you worry about until the medical/psychological issues are dealt with first obviously but it sounds like Sugarfoot is doing well on both those fronts.

Re labs, the two times I have witnessed a dog get killed, both times it was a Lab. The one time I've ever been bitten, was by a Lab. And I recall reading GSDs head the list for dogs that bite. My problem with pits is the awesome power they have in their jaws and the fact they are used for fighting with the result that there's a lot more aggression in the gene pool. (Plus pit owners often seem to have notions about dog rearing I don't share.) Chows and Akitas scare me as much though, I will almost always pick up my mini if I see a dog off leash coming toward us but an Akita or Chow will put me on high alert every time. Has anyone ever known a gentle Akita? I sure haven't. Even the friendly ones are aggressively friendly, they come charging up fast as if to say "be my friend, or else."

But again, I'm paranoid. Seeing two dogs get killed will do that to you. You don't have time to put in practice dogfight stopping techniques, a small dog is *snap* *shake* dead, takes seconds. It's actually one of the reasons I wanted a standard, not a mini, because a standard can get injured obviously, but you'd have time to try to save its life at least.


----------



## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

My only problem with any breed are the owners... and I am glad to see this thread turn around a bit on that hate rail... I live in a city - (yeah, one of the toughest in New England kind of cities) Plenty of people own dogs, including us. Many owners of yappy little ankle biters just think their dogs are so cute they do not need any training (owner nor dog...) Just as many owners of enormous beasts think that just providing a safe and loving home is enough to keep their large breed from inappropriate behaviour. Dogs are just dogs, people are inherently ignorant, and we should be lobbying for owner education, not the closing of dog parks, etc... I pay $19 for my dog tag, for an unaltered dog. I would pay $8 if he was altered. I have to show a rabies certificate - that's it - no test, no training certificate - nothing.... I pay $250 for my car tags, and with that I must have a license, insurance card, prior registration in hand, etc. I wonder what the real correlation is in statistics about dog and car damages. How many cars kill or injure? How many dogs? Oh, I have to stop before I move into sarcasm... 

And I have owned a gentle chow mix, and I did know a pair of gentle Akitas - I mean, gentle if they already knew you, or you were smaller than either of them. 

I was also lunged at and bitten by someone's very pedigreed pooch at a meet the breeds day recently... Unfortunately, stupid just crosses all demographics...

sarah


----------



## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

Thanks to whoever posted about pepper spray. It's a great idea.


----------



## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

tortoise said:


> That gave you 1 - 2 minutes to leave.


Hopefully it never happens to you... But it can.... No matter how smart or fast you think you are


----------



## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

so glad Sugarfoot is doing well!! such a scary thing. We show UKC and see about 99% of nice pitts. But for the record, I have experienced what a pitt will do to kill another dog. Years ago I had a special little silver toy poodle. She went everywhere with me. We went to someone house to see their new horse. I left her in the truck as normally did. they farm had a pitt running loose..normal acting. As I started to get into the truck, he came flying to get my dog. I was able to close the door enough to latch as I was pushing his head back. he tried to rip the door open with his claws..jumped on the hood of the truck , ripped off the wiperblades and was biting the windshield . Owner came a pulled him away and I was able to get in the truck. NEVER.NEVER went back there. that was over 40 years ago, and I can still feel the terror.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Thinking about Sugarfoot this morning! Well wishes!
Darla


----------



## schpeckie (Jun 29, 2010)

I am so sorry for your horrific experience and hopefully it won't happen again. I am praying for Sugarfoot to get well soon and heal quickly and glad to see him up and around. This story wakes a person up on how people can still own pitbulls after all the news and hype on how dangerous is this dog breed. And don't give me the BS telling me that they arenot. If a pitbull attacks me or the girls, the owner better have a good lawyer because sorry to say, but I will do something aggressive back. I always carry a side bag with treats, bug spray, water, etc. and now I am definately going to add pepper spray. Hugs and kisses from the girls! Sylvia


----------



## ambitious groomer (Mar 21, 2011)

*my best wishes*

I'm so sorry you both had to go through that! I've had a much milder experience with a German Sheppard. It was leashed, the owner asked to introduce and it still grabbed my girls face. She is an alpha girl so now she barks at anything that looks remotely close to GSD. now with her being a rottie I then get all the viscous dog, bad owner stares. This was a year ago. With work we've improved but I can tell in her body language she's on guard. it will get better but sugar may always be more reserved with new dogs. Taking mine to day care and making as many positive experiences as possible with other dogs, she's relaxing more in their presence. I told her it was ok to greet and that's been a source of guilt for me.good luck with sugar's recovery. I know it's traumatic and will take time for you both to get over.


In reference to pitts, I know dog on dog aggression has been bred into some lines but they were the number one family dogs in the US at the turn of the 1900's. My close friend was attacked by a Pitt a few years ago. He now owns one. To say they are all ticking time bombs is the same as some people thinking that about all dogs. Studies in fox aggression shows these tendancies are inheritable in any breed. I love that most well bred, well socialized Pitts are big happy clowns. As a groomer, I see more aggression issues in small chihuahua, min pins, terriers, and the like than the big scary breeds daily.


----------



## Lily's-Mom (May 31, 2012)

I am so happy to read that Sugarfoot is doing well and went to the show iwth you - that's terrific! Sounds like you both are coping with the horrible situation you have been through very well. Give Sugarfoot an extra snuggle from me and Lily.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Wow, I was saddened to hear this and instantly concerned knowing he does performance with you! I really really hope he snaps back to the old Sugarfoot. I am glad as bad as this looks it was not worse and you both are OK. I agree such a dangerous thing you did!! BUT I too would do the same. The owners of the dog really should have some serious repercussions because of their neglect. It's the only way it may slap them in the face with the reality. 

I was just catching up on some training videos and utilizing Leerburgs site for a couple tips and he has some good advise on dogs that become aggressive themselves after being attacked (apparently its a reasonable amount that do)- might be a good thing to review, just in case.

Hugs to you both!


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

ambitious groomer said:


> I see more aggression issues in small chihuahua, min pins, terriers, and the like than the big scary breeds daily.


As I walk my dog daily, I see the same thing. Any breeds have potential to be vicious. Even though they are pets, they are still animals who has instinct to bite and maul.


----------



## RmR (Mar 12, 2012)

I'm so sorry the both of you had to go this terrifying ordeal . I'm not sure what I would have done in this sitaution. I will keep Sugarfoot and your family in my thoughts and I hope his recouperation goes smoothly.


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Thank you for the updates on Sugarfoot. That wound looks painful. How are you doing? I can't imagine what you're going thru. I hope they put down that vicious dog.


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Thank you for the updates on Sugar. I hope he continues to do well.

You did not mention whether you have called animal control and the police to report this dog? I think it's extremely important. It is not realistic to think this dog will never EVER escape again and if he enounters another dog, especially a small dog, he could kill the next time.


----------



## Bobbi (Apr 20, 2012)

ambitious groomer said:


> I see more aggression issues in small chihuahua, min pins, terriers, and the like than the big scary breeds daily.



You know as I walk my dog at night I rather get attacked by a chihuahua or any of those other breeds you posted than a pitt.. Pitts have been known to turn on their owners without being provoked... you know the ole story of the frog and the scorpion....


----------



## cailinriley (Oct 30, 2011)

I was in tears, reading your account of the horrific attack on you and your boy. Bless you for protecting Sugarfoot; so grateful you weren't hurt in the process. Thank goodness your beautiful boy is healing; hope the recovery is quick and without complications, emotional or physical. I have a special fondness for partis and their owners. ((Hugs))


----------



## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear what you went through, how horrible and scary! 
But I'm glad Sugarfoot is recovering well, many many hugs for him and you!


----------



## Huxtable (Feb 19, 2012)

oh my goodness, my heart surely sunk while reading what happened  

My prayers go out to you and Sugarfoot. I'm sure he will have a speedy recovery. 

Thanks for sharing your story, sometimes we forget things like this can happen so it's important to be prepared. Every state/city has different laws about these things, but definitely carry pepper spray (which you mentioned) and/or a pocket/mini stun gun with you when walking... you never know what could happen...


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> So glad to see Sugarfoot out and about! Well wishes for a speedy recovery.
> 
> I am super concerned with all of the pepperspray comments. While I think it's reasonable for everyone to want to keep their dogs safe, I disagree in 99% of the situations with the use of pepperspray. I recently did a post about it on another thread here.
> 
> ...


Yes, that works! I used to work there. That was employee orientation day 1: how to break up a dog fight. I mentioned the variation that can be necessary for a pit in previous posts on this thread.

btw: There was never a dog fight when I worked there. They have some really nice dogs and good handling policies.


----------



## LizIsLame (Jul 2, 2012)

Poor Sugarfoot! His leg looks so painful! I'm so happy he's doing so well! 
In refrence to pits, I have to agree that it is 100% the owners that make them aggressive, not the breed. I have met several pit bulls and not one of them has been aggressive. Some poeple get them because they're always like puppies, happy, bouncing, playful puppies. And some get them because they're tough and protective. My SIL has a pit bull and she is the sweetest thing! She lets my 1 year old niece crawl all over her, grab her ears, take her toys out of her mouth, play in her food bowl while she's eating. The dog never bats and eye at her. We took our 2 mini daschunds over to play one day and the pit bull was trying to play with them, even when one of my dogs was growling and not into playing (he was an old grump) the pit just kept running around in circles, bouncing all over the place. Not an aggressive bone in her body. And that's how every pit I've ever met has been, but then again I don't know anyone that is into the whole dog fighting business, which is what I assume an owner is into if they have an aggressive pit bull. Aggressive behavior is learned.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

LizIsLame said:


> Poor Sugarfoot! His leg looks so painful! I'm so happy he's doing so well!
> In refrence to pits, I have to agree that it is 100% the owners that make them aggressive, not the breed. I have met several pit bulls and not one of them has been aggressive. Some poeple get them because they're always like puppies, happy, bouncing, playful puppies. And some get them because they're tough and protective. .... And that's how every pit I've ever met has been, but then again I don't know anyone that is into the whole dog fighting business, which is what I assume an owner is into if they have an aggressive pit bull. Aggressive behavior is learned.


*No, owners don't make a pit aggressive towards other dogs. Dog versus dog aggressionin pit bull type dogs is NOT LEARNED. This is why so many pits are getting into trouble - because people assume that if they have a loving home they will not exhibit aggression directed towards other dogs. *

I fell in love with the breed because of the puppy-like terrier qualities. They are not particularly protective and extremely few have aggression towards people. This is perhaps the only benefit of their horrific past: back in dog fighting days when the breed was developed, a dog that bit a handler during a fight was killed. This rigorous culling is why they are now known for their extreme patience with people - easpecially children and tolerance to pain. Ask any vet tech - they'd rather restrain an injured pit bull than any other breed - it's safer. 

People don't make pits aggressive towards other dogs. They ALLOW the dog to act out on genetic behavior by failing to recognize the inherent danger and controlling it!

I have not yet met a pit bull over the age of 3 that has not had an aggressive incident with another dog. I cannot count how many pit-induced figths I've broken up started by a pit aged 10 - 18 months, when DA tends to start. Of course the owner is always shocked "she's never done that before!" (umm, yeah, she WAS a puppy. not anymore!)

ALL pit bulls have a genetic tendency towards agression directed towards other dogs (and sometimes livestock), just like all retrievers tend to retreive and all hounds tend to follow scent trails. It is compeltely false (and offensive to thousands of people) to suggest that a pit bull type dog that show aggression towards other dogs has been involved in illegal activity.

Here is an example of an extreme dog-aggressive pit bull. Off leash in a dog park. If she was left unattended there would have been dead dogs. But with constant, strict training nobody except me and who I've told would realize this dog was so DA. As a puppy she was perfect, but I knew her bloodline well and I started training to control DA from day 1 - including taking her away from her mom at 5 weeks old so that she wouldn't learn behaviors from her very DA mother and putting her in with my excellent neutral female for her early dog manners socialization/learning. 

Emma Heeling 2008- YouTube

Note: I'm not practicing about-turns for fun. I'm turning her away from an individual dog or dog behavior that will trigger an aggressive response from her. This is not an angelic dog. It is very, very careful handling and extensive training. Notice 1:22 The other dog is within 6 inches of her and.... it still has a face. That is significant.

I love pits, and she was one of the best dogs I've had. I used to have the energy to keep up with (multiple) DA dogs. I can't do that anymore which is why I switched to high-drive labs and then a nice mpoo 4 years later.


----------



## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

tortoise said:


> *No, owners don't make a pit aggressive towards other dogs. Dog versus dog aggressionin pit bull type dogs is NOT LEARNED. This is why so many pits are getting into trouble - because people assume that if they have a loving home they will not exhibit aggression directed towards other dogs. *
> 
> I fell in love with the breed because of the puppy-like terrier qualities. They are not particularly protective and extremely few have aggression towards people. This is perhaps the only benefit of their horrific past: back in dog fighting days when the breed was developed, a dog that bit a handler during a fight was killed. This rigorous culling is why they are now known for their extreme patience with people - easpecially children and tolerance to pain. Ask any vet tech - they'd rather restrain an injured pit bull than any other breed - it's safer.
> 
> ...



From my personal experience I agree that it isn't an owner that makes them aggressive although I'm sure they can contribute. My sister and my cousin each took a pit pup from a friend whose female had a litter. I begged both of them not to because they are both late 20's newly weds that plan on having kids. At some point he started being aggressive toward her maltepoo who eventually wouldn't leave the bedroom then pit became so strong she could not handle him so they gave him away. Shortly there after it killed the new owner's neighbor's cat and bit a friend. That pit was treated with nothing but love while my sister had it. My cousin kept her pit and kept saying he is not aggressive and had no issues but recently when on leash walks he becomes aggressive toward dogs and small children. Both of them do the right things as far as walking dogs, socialize them at parks etc. both are smart young women (usually lol) neither are your stereo typical pit owner and neither did anything to provoke aggressive behavior yet both dogs eventually showed much aggression. I'm sure someone out there (ceaser millan?) can be a responsible pit owner but the majority do not know what they are dealing with or how to deal with it properly.
*


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I can not imagine letting a 1 year old do the things that Liz's SIL is doing with any dog, be it a pitt, poodle or shih tuz! I would also say, "I am willing to bet that any parent of a child that has ever been bitten by their own dog would say, I never thought the dog would bite ." Carley is so sweet, and very well trained, but I would not trust her with a baby ... ever! I have a 2 year old grandson and when they are together I watch them both very closely. Carley has caught on that I don't like them together and removes herself without being asked. I was shocked to read that this person is putting her child in such danger.


----------



## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

Poor Sugarfoot! Healing thoughts to your baby.

We have a pit bull living on our street. I've never seen the owners walking the dog without a muzzle. 

Regarding allowing a 1-year old to interact with a pit bull in the way Liz describes -- it upsets me to read this! Like Carley's Mom said, these behaviors are dangerous *regardless of the breed of dog*. I taught my kids never to touch our poodles while they were eating, pull their ears or tail, disturb them when they went under a bed, etc. I also would NEVER leave a young child unsupervised with a dog. This is a matter of basic safety!


----------



## kdias (Sep 17, 2011)

I am so sorry to read what happened, my heart was pounding and I just felt weak to read such a terrible thing. I am so glad to hear that poor Sugar will be okay. It has made me think again about just trying to be prepared if something so terrible should happen. I too, live in a nice quiet little neighborhood that has always been safe and I frequently walk, but know that something like this could happen anytime. We had a 4 year old child in our town killed by a dog from a breed considered agressive earlier this year, with the owner of the dog insisting that the dog had always been a "sweet" family pet. I'm with Roulette and Jacamar on everything they said and on the way the outcome would be from here if Ellie should be attacked. I do have pepper spray, but also know that it can be really bad to the one using it as defense. I need to come up with one of those sharp poles, that sounded like a great idea to me.


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Q,
I showed DH the photos of Sugarfoot and he said "I hope they sue the dog owner. In public, pit bull should be muzzled as anything will set them to bite and once they bite, they won't let go." 
DH and I are glad that Sugarfoot is continuing to do well.


----------



## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Tortoise, I have a question about your leash - muzzle video.

The way you showed it, you'd have to constantly keep tension on the leash for the muzzle to stay tight, which I guess is ok if you have a 2nd person handy to look after your own dog in a 2 dog attack but what if you are alone and the other dog is also aggressive/trying to attack? 

I was shown a different way during a pet first aid course, and it is much much slower than the one you did, but it would keep tension without anyone holding it. You loop the middle of the leash over the dog's muzzle and tie an overhand knot at the top in between the eyes, then bring both straps under and tie another overhand knot under the chin, then bring both ends behind the head and pull tight, and tie a reef knot (or whatever knot you know that won't slip). Time is less of an issue if the dog is unconscious, but this would be a pretty clumsy way of doing it if the dog were conscious and fighting... So I don't know...


----------



## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Time is of the essence, even unconscience, they come to much faster than humans and they don't seem disoriented, they wake up fighting. Practice whichever muzzle technique works best for you and get it down to as fast as you can possibly do it. Remeber, too, your hands will be shaking s you/'re tryimg to tie it, so practice often. 

Makeshift muzzling is a great skill to have, you never know when you may need to do one. Heaven forbid your dog gets injured or you pull over to help an injured dog. 
Articfox, the muzzle technique you dscribed is the one I am most familier with, and yes, it can be done while a dog is fighting with you - if you're fast and careful. (I've worked for vets for a loooong time. lol) Just a hint, pantyhose makes an excellent muzzle, it's lightweight and fits easily in a pocket.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> Tortoise, I have a question about your leash - muzzle video.
> 
> The way you showed it, you'd have to constantly keep tension on the leash for the muzzle to stay tight, which I guess is ok if you have a 2nd person handy to look after your own dog in a 2 dog attack but what if you are alone and the other dog is also aggressive/trying to attack?
> 
> I was shown a different way during a pet first aid course, and it is much much slower than the one you did, but it would keep tension without anyone holding it. You loop the middle of the leash over the dog's muzzle and tie an overhand knot at the top in between the eyes, then bring both straps under and tie another overhand knot under the chin, then bring both ends behind the head and pull tight, and tie a reef knot (or whatever knot you know that won't slip). Time is less of an issue if the dog is unconscious, but this would be a pretty clumsy way of doing it if the dog were conscious and fighting... So I don't know...


You are correct - mine is a simplication of tying a head harness. With no tension the nose piece will slide up to the dog's eyes and be useless as a muzzle.

But if both dogs are attacking, I don't think an emergency muzzle will do much good. I'd be working on controlling the attacker and assume you have control over your own dog to call it off when it is no longer in danger.

Alone, you would need 2 leashes. The first slips around the hips of the most aggressive. Break by turning to avoid getting bitten and secure the dog to a fence/tree, etc. Then put a leash around the hips of the second dog and break it off the same way.

Who has 2 extra 6 foot leashes though? It was practical in the setting I learned it, but is unlikely to apply to a walk.

In truth, dogs are incredibly resililent. I'm thinking of a dog that came into the clinic recently. The owner has multiple dogs "pick on" one dog. Somehow the picked-on dog got loose outside with the others. She got about a dozen injuries similar to Sugarfoot's and had emergencey surgery. 10 days later she has some awful looking bald spots, but is good to go. Not pit bulls involved in this story, lol.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

BorderKelpie said:


> Time is of the essence, even unconscience, they come to much faster than humans and they don't seem disoriented, they wake up fighting. Practice whichever muzzle technique works best for you and get it down to as fast as you can possibly do it. Remeber, too, your hands will be shaking s you/'re tryimg to tie it, so practice often.
> 
> Makeshift muzzling is a great skill to have, you never know when you may need to do one. Heaven forbid your dog gets injured or you pull over to help an injured dog.
> Articfox, the muzzle technique you dscribed is the one I am most familier with, and yes, it can be done while a dog is fighting with you - if you're fast and careful. (I've worked for vets for a loooong time. lol) Just a hint, pantyhose makes an excellent muzzle, it's lightweight and fits easily in a pocket.


I like using tape for muzzles. I use fabric bandage tape because it doesn't pull hair too much, but maybe I need a roll of duct tape in my pocket when I walk my dog.


----------



## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry about the attack and hope you and your beautiful Sugarfoot heal quickly. 

The pepper spray is a good idea. I read somewhere a small fire extinguisher works well but may not be so handy to carry on a walk. A small personal tazer might work also. Dogs don't like the sound. Duct tape is a great idea once you get their jaws off the poor victim. Duct tape is used to subdue alligators so I guess it'd work on pit types.

Peeps need to train and keep their animals restrained but there are things bred in certain breeds that make them more dangerous. A pit, staffie and similar breeds may be fine 99% of time but that other 1% can be fatal to another animal. Also, the pits and similar breeds may be different from what they where 100 yrs ago with some elements more recently breeding them specifically for fighting. (BTW, when is the last time you heard of a dog fighting ring broken up or cock fighting...it's still around but don't hear of that being stopped but that's another topic.)

A poodle, bichon, and related breeds may snap at someone but when is the last time you heard of a poodle attacking another dog, animal or person? Perhaps you have. I haven't. Poodles and similar water dogs were bred for centuries for hunting and are very light mouthed. Give some food to a walker hound or a spoo and unless it's a puppy or filet mignon, they will be more likely to gently eat it. A pit, bulldog, or staffie tends to inhale it. They were bred to attack bulls with the jaws to accomplish that task.

It's the training of the dog that's responsible for this vicious attacks but it's also the breeding. One cannot dismiss centuries of breeding for specific tasks. Hunting and herding type of dogs are going to get along with each other and not be as prone to attack as guard dogs. When they get in the red zone, I'd rather be with a poodle vs. a pit.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Poodles have a horrible reputation for aggression directed towards people. A combination of breed popularity + bad breeding and people handling them with more "love" than respect and structure.

The soft-mouth trait is unrelated to a dog's level of food drive!

So you forgot about the pet poodle that ate her owner's face (Italy, 2009)? That certainly was not aggressive, no... *sarcasm*

Every dog is capable of aggression. Every dog is an individual with a combination of temperament traits that will set a threshold for aggression. This is no different from any other animal, including people. Any dog can be provoked to bite.


----------



## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

I disagree tortoise, poodles def do NOT have the "horrible reputation" you are referring to, esp not when compared to the "reputation" of pits. Bully breeds, by nature of breeding purpose are prone to Dog-sensitive aggression, typically not arising til 2 or 3 years of age (you stated this yourself). Combine with the high prey drive of a terrier, and the result is a breed that requires early training (as you did with your pittie) that most "pets" do not receive (the amazement expressed by owners that their dog suddenly became aggressive is because these tendencies are late appearing) Yes, all breeds bite, including poodles, but dog-on-dog aggression is MUCH more common in pits. Early training is a boon for any puppy, but a MUST for a pit. Bad breeding is bad breeding, regardless of the breed. Bad training (or lack thereof) is bad training regardless of the breed.. but inherent drives are ingrained by decades and sometimes centuries of breeding for certain temperament and use. A family pit that killed "varmints" or other roaming strays (be it coyotes, *****, or dogs) was a valuable tool to farm families.. so it served it's purpose very well. Nowadays, they have no job, folks don't understand the nature of their breed, and fail to take the steps necessary to ensure their dogs' safety and appreciation. Not the breed's fault, but a lack of understanding of what this breed was bred to "do". See "breed standard" for reference.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Another quick update on Sugarfoot:

Attending the show with us for three days, his behavior was very good, considering. He seems to not have any worries about other dogs--even did some sniffing with a few that I know to be friendly. Well, he was a little freaked out when he met happybooker's Remy, who was being held, but when he saw him up close and realized that was a dog, he was okay! 

He was a little nervous around certain people, particularly if they were loud, assertive, or loomed over him (haha, he was like that before!). He was also a little uncomfortable with a couple of teenage boys we met. Not surprising because even before this he hadn't dealt with many kids, and then, there were a few teenage boys chasing the dog that pegged us and running around us ineffectually during the attack. But, in the situations where he was nervous, we backed away, then worked a little bit, then got close again, allowing him to see the person wasn't a threat.

For a dog attacked three days ago, his behavior was phenomenal. No lunging or aggressive barking at other dogs. Very few nervous or cautious barks or growls at "scary" things, and these were dealt with quickly and kindly, and mitigated in a way that his final response to the stimulus was more positive than his initial response. I know we've still got some work ahead of us to heal his mental scars. As a friend pointed out to me, in a way, it will be simple walks around the neighborhood and seeing approaching dogs one-on-one that will be more difficult than being at a busy show, surrounded by dogs and people. I totally agree, because *I'm* finding it difficult to get up the courage to go for a walk right now!

I'm trying to stay positive and not overly worried about the whole thing, which is very difficult for me. A friend of mine who works as a trainer and was at the show with us observed and interacted with Sugarfoot and declared that he would be fine with time and patience. I can only hope. But it was such a terrible thing to have happen.

Physically, his wound is healing right on track. We took him to the vet yesterday evening to have the drain removed. The same technician who had been there the night of Sugar's attack and worked with him then was the one who came out to get him, and she was one of those really assertive, no-nonsense young ladies. Sugarfoot saw her coming at him and gave a half-hearted growl, and this girl laughed, reached into his cone, and ruffled his head, no problems whatsoever. I think she could tell from his body language and her store of experience that meeting him with utter confidence was the way to go. When she came back out with him, the drain removed, he was leaning against her while she thumped his side. So yeah, I think he'll bounce back! She said his wound was healing perfectly. He can go to our regular vet to have his stitches removed in about ten days.

The hardest thing to deal with is his cone! He still has to have it, and he swings it around like a lethal weapon and runs into things with it (including my scraped-up knee) to cringe-worthy effect. Also, though we take it off to clean it, put his harness off and on, and to brush his head and ears, it's created such nasty mats on the back of his head that I've opted to cut a couple of them out. Oh, well--with a huge patch off his flank, too, it's not like his haircut is going to be fashionable for a while. Might have to put him in a town and country or something. Time to experiment! 

I put together a little Instagram photo called "Cone Life," and here it is! Yep, he still wants to tug, despite the cone!










TL;DR: Sugarfoot's doing well, though there are areas where I know he's going to need more support and work to help him mentally recover.

Thanks again for all the healing thoughts and good wishes!

--Q


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

No, you didn't read what I wrote.

Poodles - especially toys and minis - have a reputation for aggression towards people.

Pit bull type dogs - have a strong genetic tendency for aggression towards other dogs, but not aggression towards people.

Pit bulls do very well on ATTS temperament testing. Why do they score more highly than people expect as compared to other breeds? Because aggression towards other dogs is NOT tested (while aggression towards people IS tested.)

My DA pit bull passed her ATTS test with flying colors. (She also had a CGC which DOES test reaction to another dog btw.)

When you test aspects of the temperament minus reactions to another dog, they test similarly.


American Pit Bull Terrier 839 dogs tested 728 pass 111 fail 86.8%

Standard Poodle 253 dogs tested 219 pass 34 fail 86.6%

(German Shepherds and Golden Retrievers rank in between, for reference.)

Miniature Poodle 68 dogs tested 53 pass 15 fail 77.9%

Toy Poodle 53 dogs tested 43 pass 10 fail 81.1%


----------



## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

I have heard that poodles have a terrible reputation, especially toys and minis. Most people assume they are yappy little ankle biters that hate humans (other than their one special person), and fear dogs, pretty much like the rep that chihuahuas have. No they aren't known for seriously maiming and killing, but are thought to be vicious none the less. I'd say about 70% of the people I've talked to outside this forum have this misconception about poodles, and at least 20% have thought the same about spoos, too. It's not as bad as the pit bull's reputation, but it certainly is more negative than positive.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Wonderful news on Sugarfoot! It sounds like everything is going to be OK - behaviorally. You've been doing the right things! :adore:


----------



## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*A few Observations:*

First off, it was great to meet the Famous Sugarfoot in person at the Houston Dog Show! But Boy! Can he swing that cone around!! I even fed him a few treats and watched an AWESOME Q agility run by Quossum's hubby and his Corgi!

IF my dog was going to be attacked out on a walk I would MUCH RATHER it be by another Poodle (or a Cocker, or Chihuahua, etc) than a PB!

If *I* was going to be attacked by a dog, I would MUCH RATHER it be by a *vicious* Poodle, Cocker, Chihuahua, etc. than by a PB! 

I'm sure most (if not all) the Public would agree with me.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

kdias said:


> I am so sorry to read what happened, my heart was pounding and I just felt weak to read such a terrible thing. I am so glad to hear that poor Sugar will be okay. It has made me think again about just trying to be prepared if something so terrible should happen. I too, live in a nice quiet little neighborhood that has always been safe and I frequently walk, but know that something like this could happen anytime. We had a 4 year old child in our town killed by a dog from a breed considered agressive earlier this year, with the owner of the dog insisting that the dog had always been a "sweet" family pet. I'm with Roulette and Jacamar on everything they said and on the way the outcome would be from here if Ellie should be attacked. I do have pepper spray, but also know that it can be really bad to the one using it as defense. I need to come up with one of those sharp poles, that sounded like a great idea to me.



Another advantage to carrying a hiking pole is that you can merely threaten a dog with it. You cant do that with pepper spray.

In a self-defense context, you want a pole that you can click off the anti-shock feature if it has one. Thats just a spring that servers as a cushion. 
Some poles have handles that are perpendicular to the pole, which might be better for people without much grip strength.

Remember that hiking poles are designed to take force from the end, not from the side. You cant use them like a club. Hold it like you would a shovel or hockey stick.

Hammers Trekking Pole Hiking Stick HP5U BLUE Refurbished | eBay


Here's hoping there are no more attacks and that nobody ever needs a hiking pole for anything but hiking!


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Frankly, I'd rather not be attacked by any dog.


----------



## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Quossum, I'm so happy to hear about Sugarfoot progress. You are doing such a wonderful job.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am so glad Sugarfoot is doing okay!

Today I was at a dog training place and they were selling small cans of Citronella spray that sprays long distance. It had a clip for the belt, too. I almost bought it. Do you guys think that Citronella long distance spray would work? This was the one they wee selling:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Premier-DIRECT-STOP-RETAIL-SprayShield/dp/B0002XKIV6[/ame]


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

outwest said:


> I am so glad Sugarfoot is doing okay!
> 
> Today I was at a dog training place and they were selling small cans of Citronella spray that sprays long distance. It had a clip for the belt, too. I almost bought it. Do you guys think that Citronella long distance spray would work? This was the one they wee selling:
> http://www.amazon.com/Premier-DIRECT-STOP-RETAIL-SprayShield/dp/B0002XKIV6



The customer reviews all suggest that it works on dogs that are not too riled up, but not on the ones that are. One person wrote:

_Just a warning,,as someone else stated this will not stop an agressive attack nor will it stop a pitbull. I have a greyhound that was attacked by a pitbull and I actually had to jump on the pitbull and wrestle it off as the direct stop was no more effective then spraying the pit with Chanel number 5._


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Over on the thread about what to do in dog attacks, I mentioned finding the info about that citronella spray. We actually have ordered some and I will carry it, but I, too, am uncomfortable with the proviso that it reportdly doesn't seem to be all that effective against *really* determined, aggressive dogs. Um, it is specifically the really determined, aggressive dogs that I want to get off of me!

So, I'm still kind of mentally debating pepper spray or gel. It's kind of like...before this happened to me, I would have gotten the Spray Shield and been perfectly happy. It would have made me feel safer, just knowing I had it with me. Now that I have actually *been there,* I found myself thinking, _Wait a minute here...I don't want to "feel better;" I want something that will friggin' STOP an attacking pit bull!_

So much to think about. I can't let the fear ruin my life. But I want to be prepared. My luck, I'd be that person who gets struck by lightning twice.

--Q


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Citronella spray rarely works as a barking deterrent. I can't imagine it would be effective in a dog fight.


----------



## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

tortoise said:


> Poodles - especially toys and minis - have a reputation for aggression towards people.


Not just aggression, poodles just seem to have a bad rep period. Isn't that what's behind all the poodle based designer breeds out there, the maltipoos, the shihpoos, the doodles, etc etc? Everyone wants the minimally shedding coat; but no one seems to want the poodle temperament.

The only poodle I've ever heard of biting someone, is the one that bit my sister lol. A standard. My nieces were horrified when they heard I was getting a poodle, they're used to poodles being nasty tempered barky critters.


----------



## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Vic bit a Sheriff's deputy once.. but he had it coming <VBG>
We were at a Search and Rescue conference in a big tent, I managed to get in while there were still chairs available, but the tent ended up being totally packed, standing room only. Vic was tucked under my chair as much as she could be and the Sheriff's dog was packed in beside her, they moved around until they were both comfortable, with the people and dogs all moving trying to get so everyone could see. Anyway, long story short, the Sheriff, a big guy, well over 200 pounds, had been standing on Vic's leg. He thinks probably for quite a while, she finally couldn't stand it anymore and chomped his leg. Didn't break the skin, he apologized very sincerely and quite nicely to both of us. Figures that the only person she'd ever bite was wearing a badge.<VBG>

I took a couple of poodles in for SA biopsies, a few years ago (to a vet I'll never go back to!) The vet was going to "knock them out"! to do the biopsies. I was baffled, asked her why and she said so that they wouldn't bite her. I told her that they wouldn't, she didn't look like she believed me, however she did go ahead with out giving them any medication (I would have left with my poodles had she insisted). She was simply amazed that she was kissed for her efforts. 

Where did poodles get this bad reputation?


----------



## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

taem said:


> Not just aggression, poodles just seem to have a bad rep period. Isn't that what's behind all the poodle based designer breeds out there, the maltipoos, the shihpoos, the doodles, etc etc? Everyone wants the minimally shedding coat; but no one seems to want the poodle temperament.


This is why it is important, when out and about, to bring your well behaved poodle with you,and to talk to people about what your dog does... People are stunned to hear that our dog, at not quite 9 months, has passed the AKC STAR puppy, is ready for CGC, and is in training to be certified as a therapy dog at 1 year, and as a service dog - alerting the people to sounds like doorbells, knocks at the door, calling their name, smoke alarms and telephones. My Mother in law and I I are both hearing compromised, and there will be a point when neither of us hears enough without the hearing aid to be safe on our own. 

They are also surprised to hear that he fetches - for hours each day....

I think a lot of the bad rap poodles get is just a reflection of the owners - as with all the other breeds. Sure, poodle owners are not usually living in poverty, or the ghetto (although it is too far to walk for me, I can bike there in about 5-10 minutes...). If you ask around, many people have a pretty solid opinion that poodle owners are just as high strung and bitchy as their dogs... 

A lot of people are surprised, with the puppy cut, that he is even a poodle... We live in an area where very expensive designer dogs are the norm - seems every dog in the dog park is a doodle, and I think we have one poodle rescue and one or two breeders in the entire state... Part of that is regulations, part of that is just demand... Who wants a high strung, needy dog - and who wants to have to deal with those people who own them??? seems to be a pretty common thought here. 

I'm not saying this to be inflammatory - and it does not matter what I, personally, think - what does matter is that we, as owners, do represent our breed, and we have as much work to do in public education as the pit owners... 

FWIW, some of the most screwed up, nervous, etc, dogs I have met lately are doodles - seems they have gotten not quite the best of both breeds, and the owners feel pretty comfortable blaming the poodle part of the dog for all undesirable behaviour... It almost seems like the people who are buying these dogs are looking to have a problem to solve with their dog... I'd almost, at this point, encourage someone thinking of a doodle to consider fostering at risk children - it seems to be the same skill set and desire at work...

sarah


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Only 3 poodles I groom do NOT have "bite risk" noted on their cards. And one of those dogs is mine....


----------



## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Poodle Attacks Pit Bull - Hartford Courant


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Qoussum, maybe I missed it, but I have not seen any follow up from you regarding reporting this dog and this event to the authorities? This dog sounds very dangerous.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Oh yeah, I'll be reporting this dog, to its own vet, animal control, the police. This dog needs a record! Even if this is a first for it, something needs to be documented. I've been putting off making the calls, since the owner has been really very nice about everything. But I will!

BTW, up to this point, the only dog I had been attacked by--it was while I was working as a groomer--was a toy poodle. It began savaging my arm as I was carrying it inside. Bit a leather bracelet right off my wrist.

Any popular dog will suffer from irresponsible breeding and produce some bad specimens. It's just that a bad toy poodle is nasty...but a bad pit bull can be deadly.

--Q


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The problem with pitbulls that are illbred and mean is that they have incredible bite power in those massive jaws. Take one look at their cheeks and you know they could practically tear a tree out of the ground. Other breeds are dangerous, too, like illbred rottweilers or chows, for example, but the pitbull trumps them all in the shear physical ability to inflict damage. 

Quossum, I am glad the owner is being nice. He was probably horrified that his dog did that, but it doesn't negate the fact that he should be off the street, perhaps even put to sleep.  The owner is probably wrestling with that himself. After the bills are paid, I might send the owner a letter acknowledging your appreciation for how he handled the situation, but explaining you still felt it right to report the dog. If he is a reasonable person, he will understand why you did it. 

I owned a viscious rough collie when I was a kid. He was lovely to me, but he bit at least 4 people before my mother had him put to sleep. I was devastated and wouldn't talk to my mother for a week. I cried for months on and off. I was 12 years old. As an adult, I totally understand why she did it. Four people were bitten, one a child (my friend at the time) and that was three more than had to be bit. I also found out later that it was the SPCA who told her she had to do it. It wasn't really her choice.


----------



## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

So happy to read that SugarFoot is healing well and acting emotionally well. I can't imagine actually having to go through this experience!

The suggestion of trying to choke an attacking pit bull is just asking to get an amateur hurt in my opinion. Only a professional trained in handling agressive dogs should even think of trying this technique. To be honest I'm shocked that on a mainly pet / show forum that this would even have been suggested!

Pit Bulls definitely have a worse reputation that poodles. Do any research - heck run a poll and I guarantee that the outliers in any statistical equation will be the pit bull.... 

Attacking toy poodle or attacking pit bull - come on... although I'd prefer it to never happen I'd take the poodle any day of the week and twice on Sundays!

And this is coming from some one that has friends with a pit that acts like sweet as a baby....


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Very proud of ourselves...I took a deep breath this evening and suggested to my husband that we go for a walk around the neighborhood.

He had his corgi and I had Sugarfoot. To my surprise, Sugar wasn't at all cautious about going out the gate, but eager. We walked a very short block (in the opposite direction of the fateful walk), me with treats and a heavy walking stick in hand. 

To my eyes, I thought Sugar was perhaps a *little* hypervigilant, looking around, not walking as relaxed, more alert to his surroundings, but nothing extreme. At one point a dog behind a fence right next to us set up a furious volley of barking, and I thought for sure Sugar would jump out of his skin...but he barely noticed. Glanced over, maybe, but it didn't phase him. 

Then some kids came out of their house and started waving wildly at us (probably hoping we'd come over), and he wasn't quite an sanguine about that, but not a growl or bark in sight, just quickened his pace and tail went down a bit. When he saw some teenagers up ahead (one of them, a neighbor boy, was one of the kids who showed up at the scene of the attack--not one of the kids chasing the loose dog, but just a kid who'd heard my screaming), he did stop and look at them warily. No bark or growl, but caution. I got his attention back and had him in heel position, focused on me, then we went forward again, willingly.

So he was really very good. Luckily, our neighbor's perpetually loose Chihuahua wasn't out today, so I didn't have to see his response to an (albeit very small) loose dog.

I admit, I think I was sweating more than Sugar when we got home safely! We just might recover from this. 

--Q


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

So happy to hear your update!! It sounds like things went as well as one could imagine..or even better!! I think he will be just fine given your dedication and keen eye.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Minnie said:


> Pit Bulls definitely have a worse reputation that poodles. Do any research - heck run a poll and I guarantee that the outliers in any statistical equation will be the pit bull....
> 
> Attacking toy poodle or attacking pit bull - come on... although I'd prefer it to never happen I'd take the poodle any day of the week and twice on Sundays!


No way, Minnie, pit bulls are sweet and poodles are ferocious; one poodle can bring down an elephant! In fact, I once saw a toy poodle leap from a woman's handbag at the zoo and before they could shoot it, it ate the rhino.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


----------



## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

So, so, SO glad Sugarfoot is OK!

Since moving to the coast, my dogs have changed from dogs who rarely met another in public to dogs who are living in Doggie Mecca. We are in a vacation town where people are encouraged to bring their dogs (they're allowed in almost all businesses), on a beach where there is a leash law but it's bent to allow well behaved dogs off lead. Everywhere we go, we encounter some dog.

2 weeks ago at the farmers market, I had Lance and Ramses with me and we were charged by a pit bull. Luckily he didn't reach us, but it scared me, and the dogs. Last night, walking on the beach with all 3 dogs (on leashes) we had a pittie run up. My mom had the pomeranian, who she picked up, and I also had picked up Ramses as we saw him from a distance. He raced up to mom who was about 15 feet ahead of me, and I told her to yawn and turn sideways. She did and he backed off. He started to approach again, she did it again, and he backed away. He started to come toward me, and I did the same and told him NO. (I had Lance with me who isn't aggressive but won't back down, and he was staring hackles up at the dog, he does not like big dogs to charge the little ones). He back down and I repeated it and he turned and ran back to his owner. Now, I don't think this was an aggressive dog, though I never did get close enough to see. But it reminded me, that in addition to knowing how to break up a fight, calming signals are an awesome way to diffuse a situation that could go either way. A stray dog runs up and starts to sniff and posture, yawn, look away, lick your lips, turn your side. Your dog and that dog will often pick up on it and respond. 

Now, an attacking dog, such as what Sugarfoot had, is an entirely different story. Then it's no holds barred. Since I normally have 2 small dogs and 1 large, my strategy is protect the small dogs, drop the leash and then worry about the large one. This is really unfair to the large dog, but I would have no choice. It's a scary, scary situation and one I dread. 

I have considered pepper spray, but I would probably spray myself or my dogs. I choose vigilance, training and carry food and an extra lead. I am lucky that with now all the dog walking on the beach, I have a really good sight line and can typically avoid loose dogs except when it's really busy.

I love pitties as far as dogs. I hate pitties when it comes to stupid owners, breeders, and the fact that they do have inherent aggression issues. The problem is they run the gamut from super sweet marshmallows, to aggressive time bombs and you have no idea which they really are until it's too late. Especially when one is racing toward you. When I worked for a shelter, they made the heartbreaking decision to euthanize every pit bull that came in (probably 40% of the dogs). It was horrific to have to put down these sweet, cuddly, affectionate dogs. But there were dog fighting rings around, and we couldn't guarantee that any wouldn't end up in those rings. We also couldn't verify them with dogs, as it was way too much of a liability. I personally have held countless pitties and cried at how unfair it was. I also saved a few by managing to transfer them to city shelters that could adopt them out into safety. But I also have seen first hand what a dog aggressive pitbull can do. With their intensity, lack of inhibition, and high pain tolerance, a dog who will attack really has no place in the world. It's terrible.

As for poodle biting. Every dog can bite. I own a biter in my pom, she has a nasty habit of stalking ankles if she doesn't know you, but only at home. I know her limits with people and that she simply can't be out when I have people over. In public she's great. But she will never, ever be able to do the damage a pit bull could. You can't compare the two. Even a standard doesn't carry the jaw power, to compare.


----------



## Poodlelvr (Mar 13, 2010)

I sort of understand why poodles might be a bite risk for groomers when I think about how much goes into a poodle groom. The poor dog is turned over to a stranger who first attempts to drown him. Then there is the dreaded blow dryer. After that come clippers over face, feet, and very sensitive areas. Also there is ear plucking and nail clipping. If I were a poodle, I might attempt to bite you too. I've groomed most of my own dogs. While it is not fun for them, they trust me. I've never been bitten by my dogs. However, if you ever photographed one of them during a bath, they look like the most sorry souls on the planet. I can't really believe the general public believes poodles are a threat.


----------



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

So glad Sugarfoot is doing ok! That's awesome....dogs are so much more resilient than we give them credit for. I think you handled the situation beautifully, I couldn't have done it as well.  

As far as poodles being more dangerous or aggressive, I see both sides of that equation. Yeah I've been bitten by some poodles...but you wanna guess where they came from? BYB, puppymills, and rescues, which are filled by the previous two. I've never been bitten by a well bred poodle that I can recall. And I too would take a poodle attack over a pit attack any day! Although I've never had a pit try to bite me....just my dog. 

Poodles aren't the only breed that bite either....I regularly have to bring out a muzzle for a good many terriers, yorkies, shih tzus, goldens, labs, shelties, chows...and the list goes on. The fact of the matter is, it's not the breed but the owner, genetic makeup, environment, past experiences (or lack of them), and to a small degree the dog itself....some dogs just seem born with more issues. Although perhaps that could be lumped in with genetic makeup.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

I think most little dogs that snap are being defensive. They dont like being handled/petted/groomed by a stranger who's 15 times their size. Thats a much different mindset than a pit bull who runs down the street to kill.

Any dog can bite, thats certainly true. I think a great analogy is to say that any driver can cause an accident, but drunk drivers cause them far more frequently, and are more likely to cause horrific ones. That fact that "any driver can cause an accident" doesnt make banning drunk driving a bad idea, just as the fact that "any dog can bite" doesnt make banning pit bulls a bad idea.


----------



## Arcticfox (Dec 12, 2011)

Jacamar said:


> I think most little dogs that snap are being defensive. They dont like being handled/petted/groomed by a stranger who's 15 times their size. Thats a much different mindset than a pit bull who runs down the street to kill.
> 
> Any dog can bite, thats certainly true. I think a great analogy is to say that any driver can cause an accident, but drunk drivers cause them far more frequently, and are more likely to cause horrific ones. That fact that "any driver can cause an accident" doesnt make banning drunk driving a bad idea, just as the fact that "any dog can bite" doesnt make banning pit bulls a bad idea.


You are absolutely right in that banning drunk driving is a good idea regardless of how much other drivers can cause accidents. You are putting the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of the driver and his/her state. Which is exactly the same as saying any person can own a dog that will bite, but the responsibility to train/manage that dog falls squarely on the shoulders of the owner (and breeder, in some cases), not on the breed of dog. Banning pit bulls is like banning muscle cars, not drunk driving. Clearly, banning certain types of cars is not going to make bad drivers any better, or drunk drivers and more sober, it merely removes ONE option they have - they could go on to get a big truck instead, just like the bad pit owners and breeders could move on to the next most popular "muscle" dog, and overbreed it while selecting for aggression in the fighting rings. 

Banning a breed does nothing to overall bite statistics, in many cities that have BSL in place, the bite rate has actually gone up, or stayed unchanged despite a drop in the number of pit bulls in the area. Why not put laws in place that encourage responsible breeding practices, and crack down hard on ALL aggressive dogs and their owners. A dog's fate should depend on its individual history, not on what it looks like.


----------



## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

So glad that Sugarfoot is doing better! Poodles are such troopers.

In the Poodle vs. Pit mix debate, Pits, bullies, pit mixes with their massive jaws carry an exponentially much greater amount of power than a poodle of any size.

Comparing a 6 lb toy poodle or a 38 lb spoo, for instance, to a pit 45 lbs to a bullie that can be over 100 lbs. and the difference in jaw size and power, is huge difference. It's like comparing a VW bug to a Mack truck. Both could do some damage but one is capable of much more damage than the other. Bullie and pits were/are bred for jaw power.

I've had both standard poodle, bichon and been around toy and mini poodles. I have had a rescue 100 lb bullie and a rescue boxer/pit mix. IMHO, the toy & mini poos can be yippy (depending on learned behavior from owner) and nervous. The bullie and pit mix were very loyal and 99% of the time just big lapdogs. They were very friendly with people. However, the other 1% of the time, they could be an issue in a dogfight or attacking another animal. Most times a small dispute with other dogs would erupt and the bullie and pit mix would want to come see what was happening and break it up. They weren't motivated by sheer aggression but just trying to break up the fight most times. But pulling one of them off of anyone vs. any other breed of dog, is a major difference once they bite down and are in the red zone. Once they are in the red zone, they are running on instinct and adrenaline.

I've had a spoo snap at me grooming them trying to brush some stubborn tangles, but then immediately lick my hand like they were apologizing and look at me like "why are you hurting me?" Big difference in that behavior and a lock down by a pit/bullie's jaws. It's just a matter of physics. For instance, when I have a spoo around other dogs in a class, we both feel more comfortable around dogs of similar size or smaller and of certain breeds other than german sherpherds, pit or similar breeds, etc. The dogs may be perfectly fine and trained but it's erring on the side of caution.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Oh boy, Q.  We just got back home from a long holiday and finally caught up with PF. So glad that yr guy made it thru this. I'm not surprised that he comes out with a new attitude. Even in humans trauma can be a life changing experience. 



Paragon said:


> I will stick up for the well bred Staffies though, they are big sucks who will not do this sort of stuff.
> 
> Paragon


Oh, Paragon . . . u old softie u. U'd stick up for anything on four legs. 



Arcticfox said:


> Banning pit bulls is like banning muscle cars, not drunk driving. Clearly, banning certain types of cars is not going to make bad drivers any better, or drunk drivers and more sober, it merely removes ONE option they have - they could go on to get a big truck instead, just like the bad pit owners and breeders could move on to the next most popular "muscle" dog, and overbreed it while selecting for aggression in the fighting rings.


Yup!  Pit Bulls and Muscle Cars. I've always said, hoping not to annoy anyone, for too many of the young adult male population they're both suitable 'penis extensions'.


----------



## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

We have a property in Massachusetts. If any tenant moves in with a breed on "The List", our insurance is cancelled, and we can be fined by the city for allowing the dog to reside in the city... 

There are plenty of odd looking "retrievers" up there on the streets... I'd almost say many of them might pass for a pit bull, or some other bull terrier or mastiff, even dobermans and rottweillers, if I did not know they are on "The List"..., and therefore, would never be walking the streets with their owners...

any law made will contain a loophole. Education, responsibility and accountability in the community is the only way to help change happen, imho...

sarah


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Arcticfox said:


> Banning pit bulls is like banning muscle cars, not drunk driving.


No, not at all. Pit bulls have a will of their own, cars do not. If muscle cars had a mind of their own and could start themselves up, chase people and dogs down the street, and try to kill them, then your analogy would be correct.

And then I would certainly want muscle cars banned from my neighborhood! :laugh:




Arcticfox said:


> Banning a breed does nothing to overall bite statistics, in many cities that have BSL in place, the bite rate has actually gone up, or stayed unchanged despite a drop in the number of pit bulls in the area.


That doesnt mean that banning pit bulls doesnt work, it means it works! If 5,000 people who would have acquired pit bulls get another breed instead, the number of non-pit bull bites is expected to rise because the number of non-pit bull dogs has risen. It might (or might not) do "nothing to overall bite statistics" because bite stats simply count bites, they dont measure bite severity. To trade away pit bull attacks for non-pit bull bites is a great trade, one that makes society safer.




Arcticfox said:


> Why not put laws in place that encourage responsible breeding practices, and crack down hard on ALL aggressive dogs and their owners.


Doing that and banning pit bulls are not mutually exclusive. We can do both.




Arcticfox said:


> A dog's fate should depend on its history, not on what it looks like.


If you wait until after a pit bull mauls you or your dog to ban it, you've wated too long. Its like saying drunk drivers shouldnt be arrested until after they cause an accident. Terrible idea.

If pit bulls suddenly looked totally different - lets say they all magically became the color of irish setters and grew long corded coats like a komondor - as long as they continued to be as dangerous as they are, public interest in banning them would be the same, and the case for banning them would be just as strong. So its about behavior, not what it looks like. To suggest otherwise is intellectually dishonest.


----------



## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> Poodle Attacks Pit Bull - Hartford Courant


Pit bull attacks are common where I live. I'm sure there are many more incidents that go unreported, but here are three.

Clifton boy's 911 call helps police stop pit bull attack on his sister - NorthJersey.com

Injured dog put to sleep after pit-bull attack; owner couldn't afford care - NorthJersey.com

Clifton man rescues poodle from pit bull attack - NorthJersey.com


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Poodlecat said:


> A poodle, bichon, and related breeds may snap at someone but when is the last time you heard of a poodle attacking another dog, animal or person? .


Please read my thread: Fozzie the resource guarder. It can happen to any dog. 

I am simply horrified at finding this story (I saw your reference in the other thread--please forgive my late arrival). Your fear and anguish leapt off the page at me and i am so glad your beloved sugarfoot is doing well.

One of my dearest friends has the loveliest of pit bulls--seriously she wants to be petted by strangers far more than Fozzie does. the two of them romp and play (though Ruby is 7 and Fozzie is 3, so he has the jump on her). We watch them very carefully and my friend is quick to stop Ruby before she gets too excited/rambunctious. So I understand why BSL doesn't work and I agree, vicious dog statutes are what will do the trick. 

That said, when I see unneutered male pitbulls, I pick up fozzie and/or high tail it out of there. Ft Funston here in SF is just full of unneutered pits so we have stopped going. It's illegal to have an unaltered pit here in SF, but of course some people do it anyway. I just don't fool around. A small dog was nearly killed by an off leash pit here in SF a few months ago, the owner ran away while the dog was attacking. 

Even in my own building's courtyard, just last night there was a new dog, off leash, very black with a squarish head. I came around the corner and there was this dog trotting to us. I NEVER take changes with large dogs so while its a few yards back I always stand in front of Fozzie and start yelling NO! Back off! and make myself large (hell I'm 5'9" so it isnt' hard) and start waving my arms and walking towards the dog. Every time they turn around.

This little bitch of an owner was on her cell phone and had the utter nerve to yell out: "oh he's friendly." I said, "I don't give a s***. leash your f***** dog!" at which point she grabs his collar and flounces back into her building. She didn't even bother to carry the leash with her! WTF!

So I love these ideas about carrying a stick. I might start doing the same. I have already had to kick 2 dogs who lunged towards fozzie when getting on the elevators. And I admit I am glad ot be moving into a building next week where there are no dogs allowed over 20 lbs, strictly enforced, except for guide dogs for the blind. 

I don't care if I piss someone off. My dog's life is at stake and I will kill any dog to tries to hurt him. 

I am glad Sugarfoot is on the mend. You are a brave lady and I shiver with the good fortune you had not to have the IG with you that night. Fortune was definitely on your side.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Thanks. Sugar's physical recovery was amazingly fast, and his mental recovery has left me pretty awestruck as well. I think we were right to get him right into the dog show environment the next day, and right back to his Agility class. I was incredibly worried that I'd forevermore have a dog-reactive dog who had to be intensely monitored every second when other dogs were around. Thanks to our efforts in that area and of course Sugarfoot's basic good nature, that has not been the case. He is frightened of off-leash dogs bounding about, but is okay with dogs in a normal environment, even close by.

A friend's female spoo and he were sniffing each other last week, when the female spoo gave a roar-lunge-snap "leave me alone now!" thing, like dogs will sometimes do, you know. Sugarfoot leapt back, and I thought he'd be traumatized, but he was fine, no more bothered than any other "normal" dog at being scolded perhaps a little too harshly by another dog. And (I think I've told this story elsewhere, too), a few weeks ago he was targeting on the bottom of the a-frame when the next owner released her dog too soon, and it came barreling over the frame and plowed right into Sugar from behind. I was especially worried because it was a black and white dog, just like the one that attacked him, and about the same size (though a border collie, not a pit). But it was okay. He looked behind him a bit the very next time I put him on the frame, but after that was okay.

There has been no growling or defensiveness about other dogs to speak of, and I thank my lucky stars every day. 

I only regret that I've become much more jaded about walks. I used to walk virtually every day, and now that has gone way, way down. It's just so hard to force myself to do it. And now I don't walk without my walking stick and with my spray in my fanny pack "walking bag." My eyes are scanning all around for loose dogs, trying to spot them far enough away that we could turn and get away before a confrontation happens. I used to walk Sugar and Pixie together all the time--it really was a blessing that she wasn't with me that day--and I haven't since then but once, and I was a ball of nerves despite my greatest efforts to be casual about it. Gone are those lovely walks I used to treasure, where I would stroll and daydream with the dogs sniffing about and enjoying the world--how innocent I was! Now it's all about marching along quickly, vigilant eyes narrowed for threats.

A little bit of my joy died that day.

--Q


----------



## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Wow, I just read this whole thread in one sitting and so glad that by the end, Sugarfoot is amazing everyone with his resiliency!

I will spare you the details of my pit bull experiences because one ended with my lab's death, but I'll tell you about what happened when the authorities got involved so you'll have an idea of what you might expect to happen (each county will have their own procedures and may differ from mine though).

Anyway, when my lab was attacked (in MY yard) and killed in front of me, the dogs were declared "potentially dangerous" but no action or restrictions were placed on the dogs. Animal Control said because it was an animal attack and not a human attack that this was protocol for the first incident with a viscous dog.

A week later, the same person let his two pits out again and they attacked my elderly neighbor's lab (in HER garage). At this point, they were declared "dangerous" and the city required they be kept in a pin with a concrete floor and a ceiling and that they be muzzled if ever outside of said pin.

The dogs were moved to a temporary facility while the owner's were to construct this pin. However, they attacked two more animals there and were put to sleep and never returned to their owners- THANK GOODNESS.

Those owners never so much as acknowledged me or apologized to me. In fact, they got a new pit puppy and held it up at me as I drove down the road one day. 

My personal experiences have led me to DETEST pit bulls because their traits attract _horrible_ owners. I understand that they aren't all bad dogs. However, since the majority of people who own them do so _because_ of those bad qualities, I'd just rather they go away. I mean, really, what are they good for that other breeds can't provide instead?


----------



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Quossum said:


> Gone are those lovely walks I used to treasure, where I would stroll and daydream with the dogs sniffing about and enjoying the world--how innocent I was! Now it's all about marching along quickly, vigilant eyes narrowed for threats.
> 
> A little bit of my joy died that day.
> 
> --Q



If I may be so bold, here is a chance for you to learn from Sugar....our dogs can teach us many things and one of the most important is that today is what we should live for. If Sugar could hear your words, he'd nuzzle your hand and say, it's going to be OK, Mom. I'm here and I'm going to be FINE. 

There is nothing, NOTHING you should have done differently. 

Be vigilant, but don't let the actions of one dog take over your life. Sugar wouldn't want that. 

Much love,

FM


----------



## Poodlecat (Jul 22, 2012)

On Pits vs. Poodles, I doubt a poodle ever jumped up on bed with an unattended baby and mauled it to death like a pit did to this poor baby yesterday:
Three-month-old baby killed by family pit bull in Burleson | Dallas-Fort Worth Communities - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am no fan of pit bulls, and agree that is a horrifying story, but there clearly were all sorts of issues surrounding this incident. Leaving a sleeping infant on a bed? Allowing any dog unsupervised access to a child, especially an infant? 911 call? Domestic disturbance? Many lessons there..........It sounds like it was a chaotic household.


----------



## VancouverBC (Sep 9, 2012)

Update on Sugarfoot please?


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Sure!

Sugarfoot just keeps on doing better and better. As of today, it's almost three months since the attack. We are in the intermediate Agility class at our training center, and thanks to patience, caring instructors, and exercises from the book _Control Unleashed_, Sugar is okay in class, even standing in line with other dogs and doing some mutual sniffing. Though Sugar's confidence is growing, he still gets nervous when other dogs run around like crazy (as sometimes happens at this level, unfortunately). His worst nemesis is, sadly enough, a young spoo who has no self-control and runs around like a wild thing regularly and thankfully will not being going on to the next class.

I'm afraid I still haven't regained my joy of going for innocent walks around the neighborhood. I'm just too fearful. I've gone for a few walks since then, armed with my sturdy walking stick and anti-dog spray, but it's lost its joy. I'll keep trying. For now, Sugar gets his exercise with vigorous fetching and his Agility work. 

He amazes me daily with his resilience and his growing courage. He's such a sensitive, intelligent soul.

--Q


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Quossum said:


> Sure!
> 
> Sugarfoot just keeps on doing better and better. As of today, it's almost three months since the attack.......I'm afraid I still haven't regained my joy of going for innocent walks around the neighborhood. I'm just too fearful. I've gone for a few walks since then, armed with my sturdy walking stick and anti-dog spray, but it's lost its joy. I'll keep trying. For now, Sugar gets his exercise with vigorous fetching and his Agility work.
> 
> ...


*His owner is a very resilient, courageous, sensitive, intelligent soul too!*:nod:


----------



## fantastic poodle (Sep 8, 2012)

Poodlecat said:


> On Pits vs. Poodles, I doubt a poodle ever jumped up on bed with an unattended baby and mauled it to death like a pit did to this poor baby yesterday:
> Three-month-old baby killed by family pit bull in Burleson | Dallas-Fort Worth Communities - News for Dallas, Texas - The Dallas Morning News


Perhaps not but I have an experience that may surprise some...I was walking my Sheltie quietly down my own street like I did everyday(this was some 20 years ago or more) when a very large St Poodle comes charging out of her house and attacks her. Tore a very large hole in her hip and grabbed her throat. It took me and the dogs owner and 2 neighbors to stop the attack. No one knows why this happened...the Spoo had never reacted this way before to people or pets. My sheltie and I were traumatized for a while and then got over it. She enjoyed her walk and slowly I did too....then a couple of years later at a lake comes charging out of the treeline a pitbull and I panicked and screamed and then realized the pit was licking my dogs face and trying to play with her. You just never know...these things just happen out of the blue sometimes


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Quossum, 

My heart breaks for you. I have been in your shoes with my oldest pom Thayer. On Sept. 12th of this year the people next door put their two pits out, and they broke my fence and pulled Thayer into their yard. There was nothing I could do it happened so quickly. I was screaming and crying. The people came out, and threw Thayer into my yard almost dead. He was shreded. We rushed to the vet and he had multiple punctures. However, he did recover. His personality is no where near the same. He has changed much. I think it not only changes them but us as well. I have horrible dreams about their dogs and them hurting my babies as well as me. I am glad that the owner took responsibility, that is wonderful. The people nextdoor blamed everything on me. 
I hope that all is better soon, and that recovery is quick for both physical and emotional wounds. Big poodle hugs!


----------



## VancouverBC (Sep 9, 2012)

sweetheartsrodeo, sorry Thayer and you had such a a violent experience, glad he is recovering." 

Gotta say your neighbours have got to "GET A CHECK UP FROM THE NECK UP!" Your fault????


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

VancouverBC said:


> sweetheartsrodeo, sorry Thayer and you had such a a violent experience, glad he is recovering."
> 
> Gotta say your neighbours have got to "GET A CHECK UP FROM THE NECK UP!" Your fault????


Right, then when the police came they argued that my Remington (my standard poodle) was the vicious one and that their Am Stafs (no papers and are former fighting dogs = pitbull). Like someone said spoos just are not the type of dog to attack like that... 

I will add, that Remi lays next to Thayer and will lick him every once in a while as if to say it will be okay my friend. 

Q. - I truly hope that your baby recovers quickly. Thoughts and prayers are with you.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

sweetheartsrodeo,

Thank you for your post. It really gets to me to read such sad stories. Ive only been on this forum for a few months but I've read so many horrible stories of attacks. Probably more committed by pit bulls than all the other breeds combined. I didnt know how common such attacks are. Im glad my awareness was raised without having to learn first hand.

I hope you guys continue to recover.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Sweetheartsrodeo, thanks for sharing your story, as scary as it was. I keep reminding myself that "it could've been worse" as far as the attack on Sugar.

I've thought that old canard about, "That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger," was a bit trite, one of those things that the insensitive might say to someone going through hard times as some kind of misguided "inspiration"...

But...this really has, in a way, made us stronger. It has bonded me with Sugar more closely, as we have shared a terrifying experience. He's had to make it through this and really face his fears, and I think this experience has forced him to do so in a more intense way than he would have otherwise. 

I'm so impressed with him.

--Q


----------



## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

fantastic poodle said:


> Perhaps not but I have an experience that may surprise some...I was walking my Sheltie quietly down my own street like I did everyday(this was some 20 years ago or more) when a very large St Poodle comes charging out of her house and attacks her. Tore a very large hole in her hip and grabbed her throat. It took me and the dogs owner and 2 neighbors to stop the attack. No one knows why this happened...the Spoo had never reacted this way before to people or pets. My sheltie and I were traumatized for a while and then got over it. She enjoyed her walk and slowly I did too....then a couple of years later at a lake comes charging out of the treeline a pitbull and I panicked and screamed and then realized the pit was licking my dogs face and trying to play with her. You just never know...these things just happen out of the blue sometimes


I'm not surprised as I was attacked by a poodle when I was a child for no reason.

Doesn't stop me from liking them though


----------



## fantastic poodle (Sep 8, 2012)

Quossom and sweetheartsrodeo....your stories are just heartbreaking...not only for the horrible wounds physically inflicted on your beloved friends, but also the horrible scars left on all of you emotionally. As a groomer I have lost many a furry friend from attacks like these..perhaps its more common than you think. When humans are attacked it always makes the news, but the pet attacks dont. They should. I have seen multiple deaths occur from the same dog. I seen owners of mauled pets face financial ruin trying to save their pets lives. But whats worst of all is Ive seen amazing little dogs turn from vibrant,sassy,lovable little creatures into scared,trembling,housebound wrecks, who longer enjoy the world around them. The owners as well often go this route. So sad. Will pray for you all to make a physical as well as emotional recovery.


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I do agree with the whole that which does not kill us makes us stronger. I am thankful that I didn't lose Thayer, as I know you feel the same with Sugar. I know it made me so much stronger. As a whole I am very timid and won't raise my voice... Well, now I have more than found my voice. 

Fantastic, you are so right about seeing a change in the dogs as well. I let Thayer sulk for a few days as his wounds healed, but then, we went right back to being in the back yard. The first couple days he would run do his business and come in, but then I would sit in the swing and hold him and pet him... Or sit at the pool with him in my lap. He now is going outside, but has to be told to. I am in hopes he will return to his old self  

Thank you to all that had well wishes.


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Quossum, 

How is Sugar doing? I have been thinking about both you, Sugar and Lou and her Mommy.


----------



## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Just got caught up on the poodle v/s pitt debate. I want to add that I USED to think it was all according to the owners. However that has changed. My daughter got bit by a Pitt last week, for the 2nd time! This dog has been pampered and loved it's whole life, she was not afraid of it either time. There was no excuse for it biting her! The first time she went with the owner's gf to feed the dog while he was out of town. My daughter waited by the door, doing nothing at all and it came in and bit her. The dog bit her boot and not her skin, thankfully.

The owner made every excuse for it. He was upset because his master was gone ect. They were sure it was playing ect. The 2nd time, she was invited to their home for dinner. They put the dog on a leash and asked my daughter to feed it bits of steak ect and make friends. She did and relaxed and when asked, did she now feel comfortable with the leash coming off she said that she was... as soon as the leash came off, he jumped up on my daughter as if wanting to be petted, but she stiffened up because it scared her. Then he changed and bit her on her side, leaving a huge place. 

So now the owners say that he will never be allowed to meet and greet anyone else ever again. But they are planning to have a baby soon...


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Oh my gosh! How awful! Are they going to allow the pit near the baby? I mean that just sounds like trouble in the making to me. I think it was in an earlier thread that there was a baby that was killed in Dallas Texas by the father's pit. I hate to say it but when it comes to dogs like this I think that there should be some kind of law made to keep just any old joe from owning one. What do you think about people who claim their dog is an Am. Staff. as oposed to a pit? Does it matter? Or is it a pit is a pit.....


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Carley's Mom -- first of all a disclaimer, I did not read the entire thread prior to your post, but have been caught in the "pit debate" a few times and noticed your post today as a "new" post so wanted to reply. I DID have a pit for a few years when I lived in California -- and yes, he was sweet and predictable with me, but I would not have trusted him as far as I could throw him. I got him because the previous owner said he was fighting with his wife's poodles......coincidentally. That said, your story just reinforces my position -- and it's a tough one to argue since everyone says, "that's an exception, or my dog would not to do that, or my pit was sweet, etc. or quit bashing the breed" but just hearing about it makes me sad that there would even be a defense. Glad your daughter is ok. By the way, I referred to Gilligan as a pit, but he was actually a brindle "American Staffordshire Terrier". I won't get into an argument here, since there is really no way to win, but I am glad you posted and glad your daughter is ok. I will stick with poodles.


----------



## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

Carley's mom, what you just described was owners in denial about their dogs behavior, and they _are_ at fault here. You see poodle owners do the same thing. It's always the "sweetest" dogs that bite, and it's rarely their fault. Instead of approaching the problem and getting help, they make excuses:
- Oh well dogs are very intuitive, your dog probably sensed/picked up on something about the person it bit.
- he was probably in pain (and then a string of excuses).
- he was scared, there was a sudden movement.
- he was guarding/protecting.

Dogs are individuals, and sometimes an individual dog develops behavioral problems because of or in spite of their owners that the owner is not equipped to handle. It is up to the owner to address the problem one way or another (behaviorist, stringent avoidance, or euthanasia are all options). Coddeling or making excused for a dog doesn't help anyone, most of all the dog.

Our Aussie bit two children in our 14 years with him. Both unexpected, and the second one should never have happened and was a failure on our part (we though we had worked through it, it was some years later, and the childs mother and I were both supervising when he lunged 5 ft to nip at the child) – after that he was never allowed around children, supervised or not. 

That doesn’t make a breed bad or good. Some breeds are just harder to manage then others and need owners with the resources to manage behavior. In my experience pits are not one of those breeds. In my area most are rescues – the animal shelters are vicious in their culling (to protect the public), and an adopted pit is often one of the softest and least aggressive dogs. Any hint at temperament issues, overly shy or dominant, food, dog or people aggressive, and the dogs are killed, but there are still 100’s to be adopted and go around. These dogs tend to go to good, well informed homes.


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

Pluto said:


> Carley's mom, what you just described was owners in denial about their dogs behavior, and they _are_ at fault here. You see poodle owners do the same thing. It's always the "sweetest" dogs that bite, and it's rarely their fault. Instead of approaching the problem and getting help, they make excuses:
> - Oh well dogs are very intuitive, your dog probably sensed/picked up on something about the person it bit.
> - he was probably in pain (and then a string of excuses).
> - he was scared, there was a sudden movement.
> ...



I don't believe that all pits are bad, nor do I think that there are not good ones out there. I do believe much of this depends on the owner and the way the dog was brought up. When pits have been rescued from fighting, I thinkit is very hard to take the fight out of them, that is what they are used to. When those dogs are adopted out to people who are clueless, and refuse to call a pit a pit, then there is a problem. There are some breeds that given a bad name because of attacks. I loved my german shep. more than anything, but also know that there are some that are not as loving as Hero was. It is all about knowing your dog, and taking responsibility for its actions. 
My little Havanese is a darling little girl, loving and wants to be in my lap all the time, however I wouldn't introduce her to a dog that isn't part of my pack, as she isn't dog friendly, nor would I trust her with a small child. She was a rescue and is very nippy. However, there is another person on the list that has a Havanese (sorry I can't remeber who you are), and I would imagine that their dog has a different personality than Nelly. It just boils down to knowing your dog and being responsible.


----------



## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

Certain breeds are bred to fight, pitties are one of them. I own one, and I trust her with anyone, and anything. At 13 years old, she has proven to me she is more trustable than any other dog I know. 

However, I would never trust ANY dog, especially a large breed dog with a small dog. I always, always muzzle pitts (and really any large dogs with big jaws!) when I work with them. While many of them are wonderful, it just takes one to cause major damage.

Today we had to do a thoracotomy on a chihuahua, it was a Standard Poodle that kill shook the dog. The two dogs were neighbors, and were having a play date. The standard poodle played a little too hard, and put a puncture right throughthe lung of the chih. The poodles owners were great, and offered to pay for the whole surgery. When I left, the chih was recovering well in ICU. Most of the time we see it with German Sheps (not so much Pitties here since the breed is banned), but really goes to show you it can happen with any dog.

I had a Husky growing up. Now, SHE was one I couldnt trust with people or other dogs. She never bit another dog or person, but I would never, ever trust her. For some reason for me, its the Arctic breeds I never trust (especially those American Eskimos! They hurt!)

Sorry to hear about your poodle  Scary being attacked regardless what breed it is! Sounds like you did everythign you could for Sugarfoot and glad to hear she is back to being a confident agility pup!


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Things are going great with my spoo puppy, but I found out from talking to a neighbor two days ago that the one pit bull on my block is a problem. They let the pit bull out, off leash, and it has charged the neighbor's little dog more than once. Her dog is tiny so the fact that its still alive might mean the pit wasnt out to kill but the neighbor told me she's "had words" with the pit's owner so they are apparently not going to be responsible/sensible about their pit bull.

I will cross on the other side of the street, but these are townhouses so there are no yards; the distance from their front door to the other side of the "street" is very short. As I've posted before, I thought a sharp trekking pole would be reasonable defense, but once I found out for a fact that the pit does get let out without a leash and does charge other dogs, I upgraded to a baseball bat. I carry it handle down, grasping it by the middle, to look as non-threatening as I can.

Its not my goal to hurt a pit bull. Im an animal lover.. I even rescue the rattlesnakes that show up on my porch, moving them to the woods before they can meet with a neighbor with a shovel or get run over by a car. But anyone who decides to get a pit bull will realize the importance of keeping it on a leash or behind a fence if they any common sense at all. Failing that, they could also train it not to charge other people's dogs. If they choose to own a pit bull, fail to keep it restrained, and fail to keep it from charging my dog, thats three strikes..


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Samba -- you know what they say, even a broken clock tells the right time twice a day!!!


----------



## missmygirls (Jun 5, 2012)

Well, as i read through the posts one thing is clear. This was a traumatic experience for both human and dog. I am so very sorry that this happened to you both. Please know that you did everything that you possibly could to protect your love, and though he still was injured, he most likely would have been killed without you. God was watching over you both. I will continue to pray for healing and peace for both of you. 
I was attacked by a husky many years ago while walking both my mini-poo and jack Russel on retractable leashes. I caught the husky, believe it or not , between my legs with my knees. I'm lucky that I can still walk. But when you're in Mom mode, nothing else seems to matter. Both dogs took off in different directions. I somehow managed to hang onto both leashes. The husky's owner was running after him. Luckily, I was not hurt to bad, but my minipoo injured her back and was never the same. She still had a long and loving life. I miss her very much, We lost her last March. 
Prayer is powerful, I will keep you both in mine especially that this will not have a lasting effect on Sugars mental state. Take care


----------



## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Here in San Diego Pitbulls are a problem for many. News reports of pits mauling (& lately killing) are more frequent lately. Our shelters are filled with the 'good' ones looking for homes, but always in the criteria for adopting is "best in an home with older children" or "not good with cats" or "needs to be an only dog" the ones without issues seem rare. I personally would not like the liability of owning one but I think they are a beautiful animal.Too bad frontal lobotomies for dogs don't exist!


----------



## bellalisa (Oct 13, 2012)

I havent read the whole thread, just your description, the same thing happened to my mini poodle except it was 3 pit bulls and they bit me as well- he was hospitalized but how he lived Ill never know. I filed charges and called the dog catchers- Did you file charges? You need to that this dog was loose and at large (if it is against the ordinance of where you live) the owner needs to get a ticket. However the main reason to do this is to make the attack a matter of public record- this is like warning number 1. Next time it happens they could declare the dog dangerous etc etc. It needs to be on record. 

As for the mental damage- yes my dog is damaged mentally. He is deathly afraid of large dogs. After that he got attacked by a large lab in my neighborhood while I was walking 4 small dogs- the dog went straight for him. I think he shows his teeth right away, due to fear and sets a crazy dog off. he got bit, my neighbor paid the vet bills but swears I made it all up. the county would not give her a ticket and this was at least the 3rd incident of the dog being loose and terrifying people. Anyway we do go to the dog park and my dog seems fine around small dogs. once in awhile I try to go to the big dog side but he is terrified.

i cannot start to walk toward the direction of where that other dog lives he pulls to go the other way- 3 years ago and he still remembers what happened.

Im sorry about this. I also filed a lawsuit against the 3 dogs that attacked me and my dog but nothing became of it. I also lost a tooth in that attack and have a big scar on my arm.


----------



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

*Keep us all safe.*

I could not resist "bumping' this thread.

To all owners of aggressive breeds:

A. Keep your dog safe.

B. Keep us all safe from him/her.


So very many good dogs euthanized or up for adoption if lucky.
Kept safe they might still be at home with their family.

Eric:angel2:


----------



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Eric, You gave me a fright when I read the title to this thread. I remember the original incident and was very afraid it had happened all over again.

Once is more than enough! Greatly relieved here.

Whew!!!

Viking Queen


----------



## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Viking Queen said:


> Eric, You gave me a fright when I read the title to this thread. I remember the original incident and was very afraid it had happened all over again.
> 
> Once is more than enough! Greatly relieved here.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the fright!! A lot of new members are here now, training their puppies and socializing them. I feel it pays to have them warned that although most domestic dogs are puppy friendly, there are some to watch out for!!!
Eric.:angel2:


----------



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I DO understand your desire to educate on the subject. My dear girl went through an attack a few years ago, it was scary and awful, so it is a subject close to my heart too.

Take care, Eric and Gracie

VQ


----------

