# Stomach Tacking...anyone do it?



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I would do it when you get her spayed, preferably around a year or so of age with the tacking.


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## jasperspoo (Feb 25, 2011)

I got my boy tacked when he was neutered at 14 months. Again, nothing is guaranteed, but being able to reduce the chance of torsion was worth the cost, trouble, etc in my mind. Jasper's recovery from the neuter/gastropexy was longer than if he'd just been neutered (and longer than if it had been done laparoscopically) but now you'd never know that he'd had the procedure done. I wouldn't hesitate to gastropexy my next spoo.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

I really believe in it - I have seen what it has done for Danes.. I was just wondering how common is it to do in Std.s 

Zebee won't be getting spayed (as long as she passes all of her health clearances!), so it will be done an elective surgery.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

SarainPA said:


> I really believe in it - I have seen what it has done for Danes.. I was just wondering how common is it to do in Std.s
> 
> Zebee won't be getting spayed (as long as she passes all of her health clearances!), so it will be done an elective surgery.


Will she bred? Many breeders will not tack a breeding dog or bitch. This goes along with my own ethics, too.

If Tiger is ever neutered, he will be tacked. If he gets used for breeding, I would not tack him, unless of course he was neutered at some point.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Stella was tacked with her spay when she was retired at 7 yrs old.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am recommending to all of our puppy families that they tack their pup's stomach when the pup is spayed or neutered. I send them to sites to read about it. After losing my Mom's silver this spring to bloat and watching the agony he was in before he was euthanized, I hope to NEVER see it again nor do I want to think one of my pups could suffer from it (even though there are no reported cases behind them).


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

We elected to have the gastropexy done when we had Lucy spayed. My vet was 110% on board when I questioned her about doing the extra procedure. Her incision was longer than on a normal spay, but she recovered great and I like having the peace of mind that the likelihood of bloat induced torsion is greatly reduced.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Will she bred? Many breeders will not tack a breeding dog or bitch. This goes along with my own ethics, too.
> 
> If Tiger is ever neutered, he will be tacked. If he gets used for breeding, I would not tack him, unless of course he was neutered at some point.


I am curious as to why not to tack her before she is bred? Yes, she will be bred after she gets done showing. With Danes, we tack by a year and never have any issues when they are bred - males or females. I talked with her breeder today and she said I can do it when I want - she feels comfortable waiting till she gets spayed at 6 or 7, but it up to me. 

I am glad to see so many people do it ... I know the difference it can make in regards to bloat!!!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

You never want to breed a dog that bloats or has bloating dogs in it's pedigree. If you tack a breeding dog, you could be hiding the fact that the line bloats. The goal is to produce nonbloating dogs. The only way to know that is time, since many bloat after breeding age. In my opinion, breeding dogs should never be tacked, even if they are eventually spayed or neutered. It is important to know if bloating is in the line even for puppies born before a breeding dog bloats. Then those puppies owners would be able to have them tacked or stop breeding them.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Thank you, Outwest, for explaining that. This is exactly what I meant.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

SarainPA said:


> I am curious as to why not to tack her before she is bred? Yes, she will be bred after she gets done showing. With Danes, we tack by a year and never have any issues when they are bred - males or females. I talked with her breeder today and she said I can do it when I want - she feels comfortable waiting till she gets spayed at 6 or 7, but it up to me.
> 
> I am glad to see so many people do it ... I know the difference it can make in regards to bloat!!!


Bloat, while not at this point considered genetic, is thought to have a familial tendency. It seems that certain lines bloat more than other lines. One of the only ways a breeder can attempt to minimize bloat in their line is to never breed a dog or bitch who bloats. (In my opinion, you also will not breed the siblings of a dog that bloats, unless perhaps it is geriatric bloat). Ethically, most reputable breeders will NOT tack a breeding dog or bitch because you are altering the dog in a way that it cannot torse. This is fine, except that if the dog would have otherwise torsioned, you will be essentially breeding a dog that would have had GDV. 

Whether or not a dog has GDV in its life is important to know. By altering the dog so that it cannot torse, we are allowing ourselves to continue to breed unhealthy lines. It would be as if we could give a pill so that SA would not occur in a poodle, so we would be able to keep breeding these poodles, but we would not know if they otherwise would have developed SA and might be passing on any number of factors that could lead to this disease. In the case of bloat, since it is considered familial but not genetic, they could be passing on structural, digestive, temperamental, emotional, etc. factors that may contribute to bloat.

And Outwest, I have thought long and hard about whether I would tack a bitch or dog after they are done breeding. It's a tough call. Ethically, I have to say that I probably would not because the longevity and health of that dog important to be known for all of its offpsring. That said, what is more important, protecting your dog as it ages from possibly having torsion? Or not tacking your dog so that you could spay/neuter the line if bloat did develop in your dog at some point? 

All in all, I think it is an extremely unethical choice to tack a brood bitch.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i didn't tack temperance when i got her spayed. i wish i had. every time she acts like she's going to puke i panic.


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## Maura9900 (Mar 31, 2011)

about how much does it cost to tack? What is involved?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Maura9900 said:


> about how much does it cost to tack? What is involved?


If your dog is already neutered or spayed, you would probably want to look into a laparoscopic procedure (which runs about $1,000 +) because the cheaper, more traditional pexy, is pretty invasive. 

Henry was tacked when he had GDV. Thankfully he is still here. The incision was 10 inches +.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

did you get millie tacked when you got her spayed?


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## Maura9900 (Mar 31, 2011)

thanks for the info. YIKES! Cocoa was neutered by the rescue at 10 weeks. Guess I better start researching this a bit more.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

faerie said:


> did you get millie tacked when you got her spayed?


I did not and I thoroughly regret it.  I was on a waiting list for a male puppy who would have been related to my mom's dog, Henry. This was up until the time H had GDV. After his incident, the surgeon who did his emergency pexy told me the prophylactic gastropexy can be done easily on female puppies when spayed since they are already opened up. So, being scarred from H's near death, I got on a different waiting list for a female puppy from a different breeder, not related to Henry this time. I wan't to be as far away from that bloat incident as possible.

Well, I ended up with my female and my vet started nagging me to spay her at FOUR MONTHS. I could not believe I was being talked to about spaying so early, but Millie was my very first dog so while I felt uncomfortable, I thought that the vet must know best...

So, we compromised. Millie was spayed at five months. The vet talked me OUT of tacking Millie. Let me tell you, in all of the decisions I have made for Millie - allowing the vet to talk me into spaying Millie so young and to talk me out of prophylactic gastropexy are my biggest regrets. The *whole reason I bought Millie - a female poodle - was with the intention of having her prophylactically tacked when she was spayed.* I cannot believe I allowed a Science Diet, vaccine pushing vet to convince me that bloat is not a problem in poodles...

So now, I have a healthy, happy dog. Do I pay $1,000 to have a laparoscopic pexy done on her? Honestly, I just don't have the money right now. I could spend just a few hundred for a traditional pexy, but the recovery is pretty horrendous and it is extremely invasive. I am not cutting open my girl. I will just hope and pray that I can control her environment enough to lower her risk of bloat.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

sounds about where i am w/ respect to temperance. i got her spayed at 6-7 months and i'm okay with that, but i wish i had gotten her tacked. but since i didn't, i'll just hope i can do what it takes to keep her from going there.


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## SarainPA (Nov 18, 2011)

Wow...the cost you listed shocked me! I have gotten my Danes done for about $300!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

SarainPA said:


> Wow...the cost you listed shocked me! I have gotten my Danes done for about $300!


Was this done laparoscopically or traditionally? A traditional pexy is ~ $300.

Also, remember that while bloat is an issue in standard poodles, it is nowhere near the same degree as in danes and thus might be handled differently. I think that many people opt to do it with neutering/spaying but otherwise will not put their dog under for the more invasive, traditional tack but will instead do the laparoscopic if they can afford it.


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## McKay (Feb 19, 2011)

At this point it is my plan to have Little Anderson tacked when we have him neutered. He turns 1 year in a couple of weeks. We'll have him neutered sometime in the next 6 months. I think I understand that with a female the vet is already in the body cavity with the spay and the tacking is fairly simple???? Is this right? Is the gastropexy an invasive surgery for a male? 

Thanks for any information.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

McKay said:


> At this point it is my plan to have Little Anderson tacked when we have him neutered. He turns 1 year in a couple of weeks. We'll have him neutered sometime in the next 6 months. I think I understand that with a female the vet is already in the body cavity with the spay and the tacking is fairly simple???? Is this right? Is the gastropexy an invasive surgery for a male?
> 
> Thanks for any information.


With the male they will have to go ahead and open up the tummy. I mean it's the same surgery whether male or female. With a male his tummy is not already opened so they will have to do the approx. 10 inch incision. It will be a longer recovery than normal neuter but I say while he's already under, I would 100% do it.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

The quote I was given for my male Kai to be done is $560.00 this includes the entire procedure however it does not include his neuter, so its going to be a big spend when I do it.

For anyone that has experience with this procedure - what was the down time and what should be expected?

Things I would like to plan ahead for is how much time off work? I am sure crating would have to increase with having multiple dogs. Any potential issues to watch for?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> The quote I was given for my male Kai to be done is $560.00 this includes the entire procedure however it does not include his neuter, so its going to be a big spend when I do it.
> 
> For anyone that has experience with this procedure - what was the down time and what should be expected?
> 
> Things I would like to plan ahead for is how much time off work? I am sure crating would have to increase with having multiple dogs. Any potential issues to watch for?


I assume this will be a traditional tack since it will be with a neuter? Just make sure he has LOTS of rest. I don't remember how long, but several days. Henry developed a hematoma from not resting enough - from simply standing too much. 

It's important to rest too because that ensures the sutures adhere properly.


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

My pup is going in next week for her spay/pexy and she is being done laparoscopically. It will be about $1000. I wasn't sure about it, since some say vets say it's "elective" - but a vet friend with a dane said, absolutely do it, and the vet doing my pup did his own dog - so that sealed the deal for me.


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## McKay (Feb 19, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses everyone! I guess I better get a quote from my vet so I can start saving! It also looks like I need to plan some time off work. Would 3 or 4 days be enough??

thanks,


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## kdias (Sep 17, 2011)

I've been studying this topic and it seems to be the right thing to do, but I've also read things that say not to do things that are unnecessary so I do have some questions that I'm having a hard time finding answers to. How common is this in this breed? Does anyone know what percentage of spoos this happens to? If this procedure is done, how sure is it to prevent the stomach turning?


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

It is pretty common in poodles and to know the actual percent I think is a hard number to figure as many do not report bloat. 

My guess is not many do the gastropexy......I've been looking on other forums as well to find more info on recovery and future events with the dogs. The surgery does not guarantee bloat but it does keep the stomach from twisting (torsion) so they say.....We can read lots of stuff but finding more info on whats happened afterwards is hard to find. I want to hear from people with actual life experience.


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

My pup is having her surgery done at Angell Memorial in Boston (a massive hospital). The vet doing her surgery said that spoos are one of the more common dogs that he sees come in for bloat. The percentages that I found doing research are REALLY high, and the study isn't very recent - so I'm not sure how accurate it is.... unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any recent studies that I have come across.


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## kdias (Sep 17, 2011)

Thank you Olie and Poodle Head. I am planning on getting a spoo in the Spring and I want to do everything right. I also would like to know answers to the questions that Olie asked. I certainly would never want this to happen, but am trying to learn all I can about it and make an informed decision.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

If your dog is not tacked, what can you do to prevent this from happening? I did not know this was an issue with poodles. Now I am getting scared...


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## Q313 (Nov 3, 2011)

Here is a video going around to help people recognize what bloat can look like as it's happening.

Bloating Akita:


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Carley's Mom said:


> If your dog is not tacked, what can you do to prevent this from happening? I did not know this was an issue with poodles. Now I am getting scared...


Here is a summary of what is currently known Beating Bloat

I have never heard of gastropexy being done as a preventive surgery in my country. I understand standard poodles tend to be quite a bit bigger in the US and Canada, so perhaps GDV occurs more there.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

That bloat video is good! I have to say, though, that I think it can show in a varietyy of ways. Henry was 23 months when he had GDV. He showed no signs of physical bloat but was in excruciating pain. If you are familiar with horses and colic, he acted just like a horse would in that situation. Throwing his body to the ground and rolling, trying to unflip his stomach. Crying. Sitting down and then immediately standing up and biting at his stomach while yelping. He went outside and laid down and would not come in.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I thank everyone for all this info. I contacted Carley's breeder and ask if any in her line had ever bloated. Luckily not a one! She did know of two breeders that had dogs die from bloat. It seemed both dogs were in stress when it happened. One had been left when the family went on vacation. The other was put in a crated over night with by an new stud dog that was looking for a fight... So watch out for STRESS !


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Carley's Mom said:


> I thank everyone for all this info. I contacted Carley's breeder and ask if any in her line had ever bloated. Luckily not a one! She did know of two breeders that had dogs die from bloat. It seemed both dogs were in stress when it happened. One had been left when the family went on vacation. The other was put in a crated over night with by an new stud dog that was looking for a fight... So watch out for STRESS !



I agree about stress. Our boy was under great stress when he bloated (had been staying with someone else while we were gone on vacation and then dropped off at our house for our arrival. We think the excitement of greeting us may have been when he twisted - simply based on the condition of his stomach - no necrosis suggested the twist was very recent.)


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

*Bloat*

Early bloat can present in different ways not always the things we read about.
When in doubt ALWAYS have the Vet do an xray. Stoney did not have any of the symptoms that they say are common. Belly was not descended, he had productive vomiting mixed with dry heaves and could not settle. He is now tacked. I would tack a poodle who was not intended for breeding/show. It will not stop a bloat but will buy time to get to the Vet.


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## kdias (Sep 17, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for this information. Just the thought that this could happen is really frightening.


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Are there any short- or long-term complications related to prophylactic gastropexy? I'd have it done when Katie is spayed, so she will already be anesthetized and opened up.

Thanks!


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

My girl went in at 6:30am yesterday for her spay/pexy, and came home at 6:30 last night. She is on pain meds for the next few days, but seems to be doing ok so far. She's obviously sleeping a lot, but she's been drinking water and having a few nibbles of food. She is acting happy, and when she's out of her crate she picks up her toys and follows me around. I only let her out for an hour at a time, then she's back in for more rest. I'll keep you posted on her recovery... something tells me keeping her quiet will be the hardest part :struggle:


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## cdnchick (Jan 1, 2012)

Having taken a look at this entire thread, I've got a question for the advocates of tacking... would you still recommend it even though there's no familial history of bloat in the sire and dam?

This is something we'll be considering for Finley and I'm still trying to weigh out the pros/cons.


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

Believe me, I went back and forth a lot before doing it. I did find her great-great-grandfather died of bloat at age 10 on the PHR. Like others have said, there is no guarantee that it's not in the lines. Many owners don't use the PHR database. I wouldn't hesitate doing the tack again. Her recovery has been very easy - aside from trying to keep her quiet (all she wants to do is run and jump). I still will always make sure she eats slowly and no exercise before/after meals, but like CM said - you can't totally eliminate stress or other unknown factors that may contribute. The tacking, to me, is just one more thing I could do for her as a preventative measure.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Are there any short- or long-term complications related to prophylactic gastropexy? I'd have it done when Katie is spayed, so she will already be anesthetized and opened up.


Here is a table of different methods with pros and cons: page with gross ads.

I will mention one thing, with the disclaimer that this is entirely from personal experience. I have a chronic annoying, non-fatal disease that has caused adhesions to form on some of my internal organs. I get twinges in the left side from intestinal peristalsis that feel like something inside me is getting tied in a knot, from where my sigmoid colon is adhered to my peritoneum. I would describe this as being uncomfortable rather than painful, but it does make me wonder if a dog whose stomach was adhered to its abdominal wall would feel similar discomfort. The stomach is not simply a bag of acid that food passively progresses through; it's a muscular organ that moves as part of its digestive function. It's a lot easier to tell if an animal is in pain than it is to tell if it is chronically not very comfortable.

Clearly, a possibly uncomfortable dog is better than a dead dog, and gastropexy is necessary in a dog who has suffered GDV and already irreparably damaged the ligaments that support the stomach. The preventive option I would say depends both on the dog and its temperament and family history, and its owner's situation re. being available to act quickly should GDV occur. If your dog tends to be left alone for long periods, the surgery may be seriously worth considering as the dog will surely die if it suffers GDV when a person is not there to recognise the condition and take it to the vet. A Velcro dog with a human who works from home stands the best chance of surviving GDV should it occur, provided the human recognises the symptoms and knows how to act.

The only factors scientific studies have shown to have a strong correlation with risk are a narrow chest in relation to body length, a highly strung temperament, eating from raised bowls, and eating few large meals instead of more, smaller meals. You can't really do anything about the first other than encourage breeders to focus more on improving the chests of their stock, but the third and fourth are easy to remedy. For the second, socialise the dog well and work with a dog behaviourist if you have a particularly stress-prone dog.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Adding to what zyrcona said, Henry did have some digestive issues after his emegency gastropexybdue likely to the reduced motolity of his stomach now that he's tacked.

Henry has a noticably wide chest for a poodle, ate from unraised dishes, not high strung or easily stressed, and did not eat large meals at once and bloated/torsioned at 23 months.

Also, I find the Purdue study in bloat to be quite flawed.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Adding to what zyrcona said, Henry did have some digestive issues after his emegency gastropexybdue likely to the reduced motolity of his stomach now that he's tacked...I find the Purdue study in bloat to be quite flawed.


Yes, the original Purdue study made a lot of tenuous connections, particularly about food ingredients, that weren't replicated in other studies. However, the same group has subsequently published some additional research that better supports some of the findings, e.g. Irish Setter paper, radiology study and I would consider the evidence for chest depth: body length risk factor to be good particularly as this also coincides with veterinary observations on the types of dog brought in with GDV (poodles can all be considered this type of dog by the definition in the breed standard, although some may be at slightly less risk than others due to natural variation in the chest dimensions). The raised food bowl issue was brought up because one study (I think it actually was the Purdue one) claimed the risk of GDV was _reduced _by raised bowls and another study into this found the opposite. I recall the stress connection (which is supported by anecdotal evidence from people whose dogs have suffered GDV) was inferred in a paper by a different group. (I apologise that I can't seem to find either of these papers at the moment).

I'm not familiar with Henry's case, but I recall you said he had the gastropexy procedure not as a preventive measure, but following an actual episode of GDV. In this case, the digestive symptoms you mentioned might have been because of the gastropexy as you suggested, or they could have resulted from the general trauma to his stomach and its supporting ligaments from the bloat itself. Perhaps someone whose dog has had the prophylactic procedure could comment on this?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cdnchick said:


> Having taken a look at this entire thread, I've got a question for the advocates of tacking... would you still recommend it even though there's no familial history of bloat in the sire and dam?
> 
> This is something we'll be considering for Finley and I'm still trying to weigh out the pros/cons.


I would still recommend the tack because nobody knows for certain yet if bloat is even familial. My own belief is it could be, but just the build of our dogs makes them prone to having it happen. So in my opinion, better to be safe than sorry.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Zyrcona, the vet who performed the procedure said there was no visible damage to the stomach. Then his vet said it was reduced motility from the tack that caused the chronic acid reflux.

I agree with your take on the studies. 

(on iPhone - sorry for short respOnses)


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## Poodle Head (Sep 12, 2011)

> If your dog tends to be left alone for long periods, the surgery may be seriously worth considering as the dog will surely die if it suffers GDV when a person is not there to recognise the condition and take it to the vet.


THIS was a big one for me - my dog is never alone for more than 5 hours, but that is enough time for disastrous consequences. She is only a week and a half into recovery, but she hasn't shown any symptoms of reflux or anything else.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Am I the only person who isn't seeing poodles with this problem? None of my friends who own or breed are seeing bloat in their spoos. 

Even my puppy mill bred spoo, now 11, never had bloat.

Why is bloat popping up in so many spoos??


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*This is really tragic...*

As I read through these messages, I am struck with sadness. I absolutely adore English Bulldogs (true confession!), however, I can't imagine being involved with a breed where routine C-sections are the norm. Yet, what I am reading here.. routine gastropexies with standards are normal, accepted and being recommended by breeders!

This should be such a huge wakeup call to poodles owners and breeders everywhere. 

I have begged and pleaded with people to publicly disclose all poodle health issues, including bloat for many, many years. Yet that still isn't happening. I am aware of poodles who have bloated and been tacked who are actively being bred. Why? Because the owners claim the bloat was caused by stress, the dog bloated but hadn't torsioned "so it's not a true bloat", the dog "ate a whole bag of dog food of a type he/she wasn't used to", he/she was ten, eleven, twelve years old.. "any old poodle can bloat".. etc. 

Folks, bloat, is bloat whether there is a torsion involved. Bloat is bloat, regardless of the age of the poodle. 

There are lots of people out there who will tell you that their bloodlines are bloat free, or that no breeder should ever breed from a line where there is bloat risk. I don't have mini's and toys, haven't spent any time looking at those pedigrees, but I do have standards and I've spent years tracking health issues and reviewing pedigrees. I'd love it if all of you who have standards from lines without bloat could please share your pedigrees!

As for breeder's recommending pexies, no one ever wants to have, know, see a poodle who bloats, no one ever wants the heartbreak that accompanies that. We do know that pexies don't prevent bloat, but that they help to reduce the risk factors of a fatal torsion. But I personally can no support breeders recommending prophylactic pexies for a couple of reasons... first.. it's to the breeder's advantage to do so: it helps to mitigate the chances of a poodle bloating.. and a report to PHR.. but those reports are necessary and critical to future breeders and the well being of our breed. Breeders need to know where bloat risks are in order to avoid them when planing breedings. If the information isn't there, we are undermining the future health of the breed. Secondly, if the bloat risk in individual lines of poodles is so high that the breeder needs to recommend prophylactic pexies... I don't believe those lines should be perpetuated. Thirdly (how did I sneak that thirdly in), I have, thus far been fortunate in my lack of personal encounters with bloat, I am, however, a bit sceptacle about the veterinary world.. and sometimes I wonder how much of the prophylactic pexy info is perpetuated and given momentum by the same vet community who endorses multiple vaccinations for health promotion....at our dogs expenses.

Having said that, I owe an almost immediate apology to Arreau... Whenever one of us has something horrible happen, like Thinker's bloat, our sensitivity to that issue is always extremely heightened and we want to do everything we can to protect our other poodles and that is what Arreau is doing. This posting is not meant to cause pain.

When breeders plan a breeding, most do the very best they can to select low risk parents, every litter that is produced and ever pup within each litter is a "test". If we pexy everyone.. I believe it skews the results of that "test". 

Just some things to think about....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> Am I the only person who isn't seeing poodles with this problem? None of my friends who own or breed are seeing bloat in their spoos.
> 
> Even my puppy mill bred spoo, now 11, never had bloat.
> 
> Why is bloat popping up in so many spoos??


Due to their physical build, among other possible factors, standard poodles are a high risk breed for bloat. You are rare and lucky into not know a lot of people who have been affected by bloat.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Some breeders tend to go years without it happening, then all of a sudden they have several episodes in a row. I am aware of one litter of poodles.. all placed in separate homes, where the entire litter, with one exception, bloated over a few month period. I am aware of a boy who bloated at a young age, was tacked, went on to be bred more than 30 times. Many of the offspring have bloated as well as grand offspring. NONE, not one of these is listed on PHR. Many of the offspring and grandoffspring are in breeding homes.. which means.. someone is buying those pups, living time bombs for heartbreak and bloat.. thinking they have healthy poodles. Other breeders who breed to these dogs are clueless as to the bloat risk they have just brought into their own bloodlines. Although the researchers have focused on structure, I have done enough in depth pedigree research to see that certain lines are riddled heavily with bloat, while others have way fewer episodes. Frequently it only takes on cross to bloat ridden lines to increase the bloat episodes dramatically in lines where there was little bloat in the past.

Jean Lyle (Wycliffe) felt that bloat was caused by vaccinations. In this article, she talks a bit of first becoming aware of bloat: http://www.kaossiberians.com/old ka...t Seizures Subclinical Cases of Distemper.pdf

I am always interested in learning of pedigrees of poodles who don't have bloat in their lines......


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> I'd love it if all of you who have standards from lines without bloat could please share your pedigrees!


You will almost always find bloat somewhere if you go back far enough. I've never seen a twelve-generation pedigree with something somewhere I didn't like. The actual chance of any given poodle bloating in its lifetime is thought to be around 6%, and the majority of GDV cases involve older dogs.



Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> first.. it's to the breeder's advantage to do so: it helps to mitigate the chances of a poodle bloating.. and a report to PHR.. but those reports are necessary and critical to future breeders and the well being of our breed.


You have a point here. However, I think it still needs to be the owner's decision. I can on one hand perfectly understand someone who has to go to work and leave their dog at home wanting to reduce the chance as much as possible of ever coming home to discover said dog lying dead and swollen in a pool of vomit and froth. On the other hand, a dog with GDV in the hands of an aware owner with a premeditated plan of how to get to an experienced emergency vet stands a good chance. The longer a bloating dog is left, the more likely it becomes that the stomach and surrounding tissues will become necrotic. I consider that, for my dog, a 6% lifetime chance of emergency surgery and a gastropexy is a fair trade-off for doing surgery that might not actually be necessary and might do minor harm to the dog's digestive function.

(Edit: According to a statistic, female humans have a ~12% lifetime risk of developing breast cancer. Breast cancer is a horrible disease that is treated with invasive and painful procedures. Being spayed or having a sex change (lol) would dramatically reduce this risk, yet I don't see many people taking these kind of measures. Does this mean that humans are an inherently diseased species that should not be bred? Kind of a silly example, but something that might give some perspective.)



Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Although the researchers have focused on structure, I have done enough in depth pedigree research to see that certain lines are riddled heavily with bloat, while others have way fewer episodes.


Current understanding claims it's not genetic _per se_ (in that there's not a 'bloat gene'), but is something to do with the shape of the dog. Dogs from lines with bloat in them are purportedly narrower and larger than ones that aren't. Breeders need to start selecting more for dogs with wider shoulders and less narrow ribcages. My own dog has peculiarly narrow shoulders and her sternum feels like the keel of a ship, which I consider a fault.

I wouldn't think there would be much evidence for bloat being caused by a vaccination. If this were the case, all dogs given the vaccination would have the same risk of bloat, not just narrow-chested types.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> That bloat video is good! I have to say, though, that I think it can show in a varietyy of ways. Henry was 23 months when he had GDV. He showed no signs of physical bloat but was in excruciating pain. If you are familiar with horses and colic, he acted just like a horse would in that situation. Throwing his body to the ground and rolling, trying to unflip his stomach. Crying. Sitting down and then immediately standing up and biting at his stomach while yelping. He went outside and laid down and would not come in.


My last Spoo Roscoe bloated at 18 months ... and it was exactly as CM described. I recognized right away .... called my vet and he said give him Malox. Ya right, he then called me back and told me I had approx 2 1/2 hours to get him to a vet. We were 2 hours from the nearest vet, (drove the 2 hours in just under 2 hours). When we got there, he had calmed down so much they thought I was mistaken ... did an xray and realized I was right. Due to the time delay, they gave me the choice of trying to save or not. Of course we opted for "no holds barred do what you can"!They called in a surgical team and did the operation ... tacked his stomach then. Fortunately there was no necropsy and he recovered very well. That procedure cost $3700.00. If I was getting my dog neutered ... I would definately pay the extra to get him tacked!


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I have some questions for the breeders here:

Do you have breeding kennels?
Do you feed elevated or ground level?
Do you let them free feed or do you have set feeding schedules?


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## cookieface (Jul 5, 2011)

Thanks for the additional information and interesting discussion. Many things to think about and I just want to try to do what is best for Katie.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

zyrcona said:


> You will almost always find bloat somewhere if you go back far enough. I've never seen a twelve-generation pedigree with something somewhere I didn't like.
> 
> Agreed, more often then not, I see things within the first two or three.... poodle health issues are really scary. The actual chance of any given poodle bloating in its lifetime is thought to be around 6%, and the majority of GDV cases involve older dogs. I agree with the older dogs.. but I've always wondered where/how they came up with the 6%? As so many people are resistant to reporting, incidences increase with different lines.. etc.. I'm not sure how reliable that statistic is...
> 
> ...


.....


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

Why hasn't anyone answered my questions?


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> I have some questions for the breeders here:
> 
> Do you have breeding kennels? No, poodles live in my home.
> Do you feed elevated or ground level? Feed raw on kennel mats.
> Do you let them free feed or do you have set feeding schedules?


All eat twice a day with treats inbetween.

I do not buy into the structure is the cause only of bloat.
I know of all styles of body that have bloated, even reports of
smaller dogs such as miniatures and bostons. 
There is much we don't know. My poodle
who bloated and lived is a very inbred parti with
a family history of bloat and auto immune issues. 
This is not listed on PHR, so there seems without
much research that my dog is the only bloat ever. 
I also believe that a bloat without torsion is still a bloat!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> As I read through these messages, I am struck with sadness. I absolutely adore English Bulldogs (true confession!), however, I can't imagine being involved with a breed where routine C-sections are the norm. Yet, what I am reading here.. routine gastropexies with standards are normal, accepted and being recommended by breeders!
> 
> This should be such a huge wakeup call to poodles owners and breeders everywhere.
> 
> ...


Well, regardless of what anyone might think of my recommending this procedure to every single puppy buyer who contacts me, I will continue to do so. After watching my Mother's beloved heart dog go through two bloat episodes in five weeks, I NEVER, EVER want to think of another's life being snuffed out by this disgusting ailment or for the end of their life to be so filled with pain and confusion. To see a boy whose life had to that point only been about loving and being loved, panicked, scratching the floor, crying out, writhing in pain...I am sorry if it goes against the grain of what breeders SHOULD do... but I will continue to be a proponent of tacking until someone, somewhere comes up with some clear cut answers.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, regardless of what anyone might think of my recommending this procedure to every single puppy buyer who contacts me, I will continue to do so.
> 
> Arreau, I don't think badly of you at all! For the time being, I have a different opinion.. and that could change at any time. I've said time and time again that breeders need to do what they believe is right, regardless of what other breeders are doing. What I expressed or attempted to, is my opinion and concerns over the current trends in tacking and how I believe that it may decrease even further the reporting of bloat episodes.
> After watching my Mother's beloved heart dog go through two bloat episodes in five weeks, I NEVER, EVER want to think of another's life being snuffed out by this disgusting ailment or for the end of their life to be so filled with pain and confusion. To see a boy whose life had to that point only been about loving and being loved, panicked, scratching the floor, crying out, writhing in pain
> ...


......


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Here's why.... if you had a.. $5000 poodle, would you feed that poodle the cheapest sale dog food of the week, never deworm, not take the dog to the vet... most likely, you would treat your dog with the most exquisite care, spending hours researching diets, exercise, etc. Now as a human.. if you had a million dollar body (my body is priceless.,. how about yours?) Would feed it only the healthiest most organic of foods.. or would you make offerings in the form of chocolate, caffeine, hot fudge sundaes.... would you do everything you could to mitigate health risks (these are obviously rhethorical questions) or would you endulge and live life in comfort, luxury... etc. Most of us tend to believe that we are invincible, that "it" can't happen to us.. until "it" does and we don't take a whole lot of preventatives.


Hmm... in replying to this point (and appreciating I'm going off topic slightly), I understand that my approach may not be typical of most people. I consider my dogs to be priceless, whether I paid 5,000 USD for them or was given them for free. I treat my dog in this respect the same as I would myself or another human. I also would contend that much of the evidence to what various schools of thought claim is a healthy lifestyle is contradictory and not particularly compelling. I would say your strongest chances at health and longevity come first from your genetics, then from stress, then from lack of exercise, and with other factors such as dietary coming after this.

With regards to food, there is little clear consensus of what actually _is _the healthiest food, and I personally wouldn't consider it to be organic food. In fact I would eat entirely genetically modified food if I were able to obtain it, both because I see no convincing evidence of any impediment to it, and to show my support for scientific research in this area because people in this world are starving to death and so far it's the only viable and humane answer. YMMV. In practice my dog and I tend to eat what we enjoy, what I can best determine is healthy, and what our digestive systems can cope with.

A lot of people would probably consider my diet to be revolting/unhealthy. I mostly eat food that probably fits best under the RAF/paleo definition umbrella, i.e. a load of raw meat and fat plus some fruit and salad plus steamed/boiled fruit/vegetables/meat that's not appropriate for eating raw. I have medical conditions that mean my digestion just can't cope with large amounts of starch and fibre. I am also mucking around at the moment trying to farm insects (there's reasonable evidence that insects are a healthy thing to eat, but I don't see many people eating them and I can't buy them in a shop). My dog eats RAF food plus a variety of dry and wet dog foods that I consider suitable, plus fruit (dog loves fruit). I appreciate that other people may not enjoy eating this kind of thing and may do better on other kinds of food.

Without better information than we currently have, a lifestyle conducive to health is a gamble. You assess what information is available, and you put your money on a number and wait for the ball to stop. The winning number may not be the same for everyone. And you could be screwed whatever you choose if you happen to have wound up with a bad genetic combination. You might greatly reduce the risk of GDV by having preventive gastropexy, but as you said it doesn't rule out that risk completely. No surgery is without risk, and any procedure that removes or alters normal parts of the body will have effects on the body as a whole. When I chose to have my dog spayed, the benefits of it to me strongly outweighed the risks. I did not have a gastropexy done on her because I did not feel the benefits would outweigh the risks. For someone else, the risks might outweigh the benefits, which is why I think it's a decision that depends on each person and each dog and their individual circumstances.


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## kdias (Sep 17, 2011)

After reading all of this and doing my own research, I am convinced that I want to have this done when I do get a spoo in late spring. My question is about choosing the vet to do this. I live in a very rural area, and am fortunate to have a good vet within 5 miles of my home. I believe he is very capable of doing anything, and he seems to be very caring about all animals. That being said...I had to take the cat in this morning for her annual checkup, and while there I ask several questions. They don't have any clients that are spoos, but do have alot of miniatures and toys, and have only had one over the years. I ask him for his opinion on the tacking and he said he has done this before in emergecies on other dogs, but had never done this as a preventive, though he could certainly do this and agreed he felt it would certainly prevent torsion. Your opinions-would you use the good local vet with very little experience with spoos, or a vet in the closest larger town which is 45 miles away?


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