# Toy & Mini Poodle Breeder Questions



## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

A teacup breeder I found seems to be honest and has nice looking puppies.

the mother is 4lbs, height is 7” and father is 3 lbs height is 6”.
both are abt 8 years old. thats her 4th litter.

akc registered. Dna certified.
please let me know your opinions


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Tea cup is not a size by the way in any breed dog it is a gimmick
There are only toy, miniature and Standard poodles.
Any breeder advertising teacup poodles I wouldn't buy from.

The breeder should be doing O.F.A. and CHIC testing for P.R.A,, and Patellas clear the very least
also they be doing something with their dogs, conformation, agility, something besides just breeding them.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

« Teacup » is a marketing term to sell dogs at a higher price. It is used by unscrupulous people who don’t care about the breed, or are completely ignorant of the breed standard. There is no such thing as a teacup poodle. Very small dogs are more fragile with more health problems and ethical breeders do not purposely breed them.

Stay away from anyone who uses this term to talk about their breeding or dogs. There is a list of ethical breeders on this forum.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Both of these parents are 8 years old.
Red is father, Chocolate is mother.
father weight 3.5 lbs
mother weight is 4 lbs
akc registered.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

8 is pushing it for breeding the dam, let alone the other red flags. Not a breeding I would consider getting a puppy from, plus a very small toy could be at risk from your miniature pup, whose play might be too rambunctious.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Steer clear on this for more reasons than I can count.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Hard to tell from a pic like that but combined with heights, I would say those dogs have very poor conformation. They have short stubby little legs. Most likely they carry a mutation called CDDY which causes short legs but also makes them more prone to Intervertebral disk disease, which is a horrible crippling health issue. You want to purchase a dog with correct conformation that is square in shape, with their height at withers equal to their length. Poodles should have long lovely legs, not be short and squat. In addition, these dogs look to have poor coat with thin wispy hair.

This is what a toy poodle should look like.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

As others have said, these dogs have very poor conformation. This breeder is puposely sacrificing the legs to bring down the weight. That’s basically cruelty. Those dogs would not weigh 3-4 lbs if they had normal legs like they should.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Nope nope nope. Swipe left. 

A fourth litter at age 8 is not something I'd condone for the dam.

I can't tell for sure from the pose, but they do look rather short legged.
Neither teacup nor chocolate are terms which would be used by a reputable poodle breeder. The dam is actually a brown phantom.

Neither a serious show breeder nor a serious color breeder would pair these two dogs. The show breeder would avoid phantom and mismarks, as neither can be shown in AKC. Additionally, a show breeder would strive for good conformation. dogs

A color breeder would not cross brown phantom with red. Since both red and brown phantom are recessive colors, a knowledgeable color breeder would pair red to red and phantom to phantom. The exception is if the outcross will improve the structure of the dogs, which doesn't seem the case here. Even then, the breeder would try to avoid introducing undesirable recessives. Having liver points on a red dog or having apricot pop up in a phantom line two generations later are not ideal.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Hello I found another male teacup for sale that I want to buy.
Please let me know what you think?

*Father* 










*Mother*










*Male Puppy*


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

You have gotten some very good advice on you other post
Again poodles are sized toy, miniature and standard


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

twyla said:


> You have gotten some very good advice on you other post
> Again poodles are sized toy, miniature and standard


I just thought this one wasnt short legged


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Teacup = bad idea. Nature designed dogs to be medium or large sized animals. Dogs can only be shrunk a certain amount before the structure and proportions of the animal no longer work. Healthy tiny mammals don't have a dog-like design. They look like rats, mice, shrews, martins, and so forth. They typically have short little legs, very flexible spines, and organs optimally proportioned for their size. Toy poodles are pretty close to the non-viable cutoff point for size. Shrinking them even further to rat size is asking for health problems.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Any reputable Toy breeders in new york?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

"Cute" photos do not a healthy puppy make... Not at all sure it is even a poodle - the last three photos are very unlike a poodle pup, and probably of a very young puppy too, while the first looks remarkably like a stuffed toy! You really would do better to concentrate on finding a good breeder who is focussed on producing healthy pups of good temperament, rather than tiny size and fancy photos.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Who is the breeder? Do they show their dogs in conformation to prove that that they are well built and have a good temperament? Or do they compete in dog sports like rally or agility to prove they are well built and have a good temperament?

Have the parents had all the health checks recommended by the Poodle Club of America for toy poodles?there should be official records that you can look up on line. Did the breeder look for a male that would be the best mate, would bring strengths where the mother has weaknesses? Was genetic diversity considered with this mating.

There definitely are quality breeders of toy poodles in NY and surrounding states.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I will recommend Silverbirch they are in Hsmilton NY and Rodells in CT, I got my boy Leonard from Rod Connors


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Skylar said:


> Who is the breeder? Do they show their dogs in conformation to prove that that they are well built and have a good temperament? Or do they compete in dog sports like rally or agility to prove they are well built and have a good temperament?
> 
> Have the parents had all the health checks recommended by the Poodle Club of America for toy poodles?there should be official records that you can look up on line. Did the breeder look for a male that would be the best mate, would bring strengths where the mother has weaknesses? Was genetic diversity considered with this mating.
> 
> There definitely are quality breeders of toy poodles in NY and surrounding states.


I only know 1 breeder.
Do you have a list of good toy poodle Breeders?


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

fjm said:


> "Cute" photos do not a healthy puppy make... Not at all sure it is even a poodle - the last three photos are very unlike a poodle pup, and probably of a very young puppy too, while the first looks remarkably like a stuffed toy! You really would do better to concentrate on finding a good breeder who is focussed on producing healthy pups of good temperament, rather than tiny size and fancy photos.


Totally agree. I thought the same thing. Father looks like a stuffed toy.

There breeders are really disgusting people, full of bs and terrible breeding.

This forum is amazing. 

Breeder asses should be really punished somehow. Every time they do something wrong with these puppies, there should be organization to give them violation.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Hard to tell from a pic like that but combined with heights, I would say those dogs have very poor conformation. They have short stubby little legs. Most likely they carry a mutation called CDDY which causes short legs but also makes them more prone to Intervertebral disk disease, which is a horrible crippling health issue. You want to purchase a dog with correct conformation that is square in shape, with their height at withers equal to their length. Poodles should have long lovely legs, not be short and squat. In addition, these dogs look to have poor coat with thin wispy hair.
> 
> This is what a toy poodle should look like.
> 
> View attachment 472501


Thank you so much. You gave me such a good information and you saved me bunch of unneeded hassle and idiocy.

This is what breeder replied to me after I asked about short legs.

“ mother has middle legs height and Father is short legs”


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Molodets said:


> Totally agree. I thought the same thing. Father looks like a stuffed toy.
> 
> There breeders are really disgusting people, full of bs and terrible breeding.
> 
> ...


Very glad you will be finding a well bred puppy rather than these unfortunate cases. Twyla listed some great breeders in your area. Silvabirch and Rodell would be my go-tos.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

twyla said:


> Rod Connors


Unfortunately they dont have any available toy poodles.

What about lancasterpuppies.com?

Or anyone else?

Im even willing to pay for shipping if a Good breeder is in a different State.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Raindrops said:


> Very glad you will be finding a well bred puppy rather than these unfortunate cases. Twyla listed some great breeders in your area. Silvabirch and Rodell would be my go-tos.


OP, you have received lots of good advice here about avoiding teacup toys. If you want a well-bred normal size toy I would start researching and reaching out to breeders now. Many of them have waiting lists for next year and beyond and since toys often have small litters, and sometimes even single pups, you need to start looking early. I don't know who Rodell is so can't comment on them, but Silvabirch is Barbara Hoopes and she has fantastic toys. She shows her pups in breed and finishes them to their Ch. and then also shows in performance, especially agility. She health tests all her breeding dogs above and beyond what is required. If you are interested in a puppy this year, I would reach out to her and find out what her future breeding plans are.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

If a breeder has puppies available currently they most likely are not a reputable breeder. In good times, it is usually at least 2-3 months wait for a puppy. Currently demand is so high it is at least 12 months. Better to get on a waitlist for a responsibly bred healthy dog than look for a backyard bred puppy that will cost many thousands in medical bills in no time.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Getting a good puppy will likely mean waiting. The reason great breeders end up with wait lists is that they are great breeders with great reputations and happy healthy puppies. fjm is right that cute pics are gimmicky and shouldn't be decision making items. Please stop looking at all ads for teacup poodles. This is a marketing gimmick too and there is no such thing as a teacup poodle, yorkie or any other breed. These tiny dogs are fragile and often are not from the best parents so may have health or temperament problems.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Surely you want a dog that can be your companion for a long time. You need a healthy dog of good disposition. Posters here are just trying to help you find that dog.

They're trying to save you from medical costs down the road for an unsound dog or the heartbreak of a dog that has a bad temperament.

Good dogs don't have to come from important breeders, but they do have to come from careful breeders who are willing to do health testing and have references to attest to their dogs' temperaments.

I'm sorry that your search is so difficult.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

You might find it helpful to look at gooddog . com. They list breeders all over the country who supposedly do some level of health testing. No guarantees any of them are great, but it's probably better than a random puppy broker. Also, you will notice on that site that many toy breeders have closed their waiting lists, especially breeders near large population centers on the east and west coasts. Covid has put a serious dent into puppy availability.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

All puppies are cute but not all of them are well bred, I am $18k in on a very cute puppy who was badly bred, two knee surgeries, a diagnosis of kidney disease and terminal cancer diagnosis before the age of 5 years.
My last pup I got from the best breeder I could find, he is healthy and has a good temperament, yes he is beautiful and worth the wait to find him.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

I understand everyone’s opinion,
but I also saw friends, neighbors and heard many stories when people bought puppies from reputable breeders also had different kind of health issues....

We shouldnt be ignorant and understand, health issues could happen to anyone. 

Reputable breeders Just like Backyard breeders most of the time do have good and healthy puppies that live up to 20 years if not more.


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## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

FALSE with a capital T!

If you have had dogs from a reputable breeder getting sick (unless the disease a phenotype disease) I question weather or not the breeder was reputable. 

well bred pure breeds are proven to be more structurally sound, with even temperments, and no health issues.

I can name SEVERAL people In my life who have SICK back yard bred dogs. 

BYB dogs are quite the opposite. While they can be good dogs, I haven't heard of many byb dogs with a clean bill of health, and no behavior problems.

dogs often do not live to 20 years old??? regardless of breeding.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Molodets said:


> I understand everyone’s opinion,
> but I also saw friends, neighbors and heard many stories when people bought puppies from reputable breeders also had different kind of health issues....
> 
> We shouldnt be ignorant and understand, health issues could happen to anyone.
> ...


Dogs are living creatures and can have health issues, just like any other living creature. I can say from personal experience that dogs that come from "greeders" (people who breed and sell for money) are highly likely to have health and personality issues. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.

If you want a well-adjusted pup that is the right fit for you, going to a reputable breeder is your best option. But of course you have the freedom to do what you wish.

Also will add that I've had smaller dogs all my life, and the oldest lived to 17, so I am not sure where 20 plus years is coming from.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Dogs4Life said:


> Dogs are living creatures and can have health issues, just like any other living creature. I can say from personal experience that dogs that come from "greeders" (people who breed and sell for money) are highly likely to have health and personality issues. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.
> 
> If you want a well-adjusted pup that is the right fit for you, going to a reputable breeder is your best option. But of course you have the freedom to do what you wish.
> 
> Also will add that I've had smaller dogs all my life, and the oldest lived to 17, so I am not sure where 20 plus years is coming from.


My neighbor bought poodle from amish in 2002, the dog is still alive, no major problems or behavior issues. 
My classmate, orthopedic surgeon bought 2 mini poodles in 2006 and 2007, also from amish, they are fine. I have an employee, also has poodle from byb from 2010 also no major problems. 
I can name you more,
Please understand Im not saying All byb and amish sell 100% excellent puppies, but most of them do.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Dogs4Life said:


> Dogs are living creatures and can have health issues, just like any other living creature. I can say from personal experience that dogs that come from "greeders" (people who breed and sell for money) are highly likely to have health and personality issues. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.
> 
> If you want a well-adjusted pup that is the right fit for you, going to a reputable breeder is your best option. But of course you have the freedom to do what you wish.
> 
> Also will add that I've had smaller dogs all my life, and the oldest lived to 17, so I am not sure where 20 plus years is coming from.


There is good amount of articles online you can find where mini poodles lived long years and these puppies were bought from byb. Just be careful. If you think you are being deceived then don’t buy.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

The Amish are well known for puppy mills where adult dogs are kept in very poor conditions. Even if I somehow knew a puppy from an Amish mill had perfect health and temperament, I would never ever support them.

Dogs from good breeders can have health issues but there is much less chance when the parents and grandparents have been screened for every possible condition. If you know a lot of people with very ill well bred puppies... I would question if they were well bred. Did the breeders do all OFA recommended testing? Were the parents titled to demonstrate structure and temperament? Or did the breeder just do a good job selling like a car salesman? I know plenty of people who think their dogs are from good breeders. But they have no idea what a good breeder is. You are always welcome to take a chance with your heart and your money.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Ofa testing is important and many other things. I think when people spend thousands dollars on the puppy Im sure they do research before they get one.


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## daabor (Jan 31, 2019)

I would never support a puppy mill, and I think the site, Lancaster Puppies, is only supporting puppy mills. 

My Sammy was bred by a nice older lady that owned both parents. The parents are her pets. Grandparents to my dog were OFA tested, but not the parents. On this site, that may not sound good, but my Sammy is the best dog ever.

I have had no health issues with Sammy ( and I know I am lucky). I found him on the AKC Marketplace website. 

Although the puppy pics are definately cute, I would not get one from the Lancaster site. In my opinion, all on that site are puppy mill.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Molodets said:


> akc registered. Dna certified.


FYI, DNA certified isn't health testing. From the AKC site:

_"The DNA Profile Program is for owners and breeders electing to add value to their breeding programs by eliminating concerns or questions about identification and parentage."_

I'm going back to your other thread and add some information that I hope you'll find helpful . 

We want to see every poodle and their new family will be a good fit and will live many long happy years together.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm going to drop some starting info for you, including a partial Breeder List. Every name on the list has been recommended by a PF member or several, or I have found them by searching thru websites for breeders that the recommended breeder also recommends. Then I went to every website and/or the OFA site and/or a general internet search to verify any health testing done. I only did this initially, before adding them to the list. It's up to the seeker to verify the breeders current standing.

A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" often favor the breeder ultimately, more than the buyer.

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders can be old school in communicating and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $1500 to $3000 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.
Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

If you review the Breeder List the Health info is a useful resource as well as the official Poodle Clubs. Look for the breeder referral person for your province of city by searching for "Poodle Club of *___*".

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, I'll drop my personal criteria:

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.

Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 


My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.

This isn't snobbery or elitist, it's Poodlist. I will only support breeders who care about the future of the breed, not just the puppies they breed.

Breeding Program
! to maintain, improve, strengthen the breedby breeding to standard, for health and genetic diversity,
and will prove their dogs meet these standards by showing or competing or by breeding from titled parents. It's not the title, but what it shows
! focus is on quality, never quantity
! they do not cross breed
! they limit breeding to one to two breeds
! they limit breeding to only a few litters per year *

Breeding Parents
! registry information available AKC (American Kennel Club), UKC (United Kennel Club) in the US
CKC (Canadian Kennel Club in Canada
The Kennel Club in the Uk
AKC Registry Lookup
Dog Search
! not too old or young for breeding
! not overbred
see Asking questions from a breeder
and Frequency of Breeding a Bitch
! genetic health testing done appropriate to breed and variety
! other health testing by exam such as annual eye, hips, patellas
! results of testing on own website, OFA site or testing lab
see Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
and OFA Lookup Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO

Living Conditions
! in home with family
! breeder allows, even encourages home visits

Puppies
! routine and urgent vet care, immunizations, dewormings
! socialization
! first groomings
! registry papers
! they will not require spay/neuter before physical maturity
! health "guarantee" generally favors the breeder, not the buyer.
health guarantee is no replacement for health testing of dam and sire.
does the contract/guarantee/warranty rule out covering conditions the parents should have been tested for
do you fully understand the terms of any contract/guarantee/warranty and can you live with them
beginning housetraining is a bonus
temperament testing is helpful

Advertising
! individual website to detail history of breeder, goals for their program
! information on dams, sires, puppies
! no trend pricing for color, gender or size,
! no marketing gimmick terms like "teacup" "royal"

If a breeder wants me to believe that they believe in their dogs, they won't stop the investment when it comes time to find the new families. If they want to cut costs by using free advertising sites like craigslist, kijiji, or listing on retail marketplaces like puppyspot or puppyfind, or other classified ad sites such as newspapers, I wonder what else they've cut costs on.

! Anything not found on a public online site should be provided by breeder before buying.

* Many people prefer small scale breeders because they feel the puppies will have better socialization and it's very unlikely to be a puppy mill-like operation. Extra homework will be needed to vet breeders who always have puppies available, or who may have more than a few older puppies or adults needing homes.

This doesn't mean that larger scale breeders can't do things right. The breeder of record may not be hands on with every pup or poodle on the place but they should make sure that all the quality of life and attention are paid to all their dogs.

If you're looking in a state with a high number of puppy mills, learn what to look for so you don't inadvertently support them.


Contact a few breeders to introduce yourself. Even if they don't have or don't offer what you're looking for, it can be a close knit community. They may know where to refer you.









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Here is breeder that has Mini Poodle female for sale. 3k
6 month old.

This is what she told me.

Mini poodle will be on the smaller side of miniature. Her parents were 10, and 12 lb. She has been color tested, and is atat kbky e. She is a sweet, out going little girl. I have her litter box trained. Utd on all of her vaccines, and deworming. She is AKC registered. Mom is on site.

If you guys recommend Ill buy her tomorrow.

thanks for all of your help.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)




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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

It's not possible to predict the size of the pup simply based on the parents genetics. There's many ancestors to account for also.

Color testing is nice but has nothing to do with health.

Were the dam and sire both health tested using at least the OFA/CHIC standards for minimum health testing, and were their results clear/normal/good, and published on the OFA site?

Three thousand dollars is far too much for a pup from parents who've not been health tested or have been proven to be sound by competing in AKC or UKC events?


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

She told me OFA testing is done.
Im waiting for numbers.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

These pups are cute, what pup isn't? They may be purebred, but _not all purebred dogs are well bred_. 

Well bred means they meet the breed standard in physical structure and are physically sound, they come from dams and sires who've been tested for, and have healthy results for the common, known health issues for their variety. 

This is a very minimum standard to expect.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Ask for the registered names of the dam and sire then go to the OFA site and look for yourself. Trust if you will, but verify with OFA for yourself.

*Health Testing Criteria - Parents Are Tested Not Puppies - Additional Testing*

*  Health Related Publications - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.  *
Versatility In Poodles, Inc.
vipoodle.org

*Toy Minimum Testing Criteria*
prcd Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing from an approved laboratory
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation

*Miniature Minimum Testing Criteria*
prcd Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing from an approved laboratory
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation

*Standard Minimum Testing Criteria*
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
*Plus Health Elective* (At least one of the following tests):
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist
Congenital Cardiac Exam
Advanced Cardiac Exam

*OFA Lookup - by kennel name or dog name or registry number - Orthopedic Foundation for Animals*

https://www.ofa.org/look-up-a-dog


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Hi @Molodets. I have moved all of your threads to a more appropriate forum: Finding the Right Puppy & Breeder

Will you be meeting the breeder prior to your purchase?

Generally speaking, it’s best to choose a breeder who ticks all your boxes before choosing a puppy. All of these cute puppy pics are intended to make potential buyers fall in love, but they tell you nothing of what’s going on “behind the scenes.” You want to make sure you’re not supporting a puppy mill with your purchase, not only for the health and well-being of your new little one, but also for the health and well-being of those who came before and those who will come after (including the dam and sire).

If you wish to inquire about additional puppies here, please add their photos to this thread or either of your toy poodle threads. No need to create another.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Ok


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Hi @Molodets. I have moved all of your threads to a more appropriate forum: Finding the Right Puppy & Breeder
> 
> Will you be meeting the breeder prior to your purchase?
> 
> ...


Ok. I just thought it will be a very long thread, thats why I started a new one with new topic.

Yes, she invited me to her house


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Molodets said:


> Ok. I just thought it will be a very long thread, thats why I started a new one with new topic.
> 
> Yes, she invited me to her house


That’s good to hear. Hope all goes well with your meeting and with your additional research. Rose has provided you with some excellent information.

P.S. I googled the site this puppy is posted on, and the very bad reviews are worrisome. Sounds like it’s a haven for puppy millers and scam artists. So be doubly sure to look past the cute pics, as tempting as they might be.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Molodets said:


> “ mother has middle legs height and Father is short legs”


Short legs in any size poodle is a genetic mutation and can be a sign of a life threatening disease, Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk), and Chondrodysplasia (CDPA).

Testing should have been done on the sire and dam to avoid the possibility of this disease being carried to the pups.

Breed standard










Proportion: To insure the desirable squarely built appearance, the length of the body measured from the breastbone to the point of the rump approximates the height from the highest point of the shoulders tothe ground.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Molodets said:


> Yes, she invited me to her house


When/if you get there, these are the DNA test results for the parents of a Toy or Miniature Poodle puppy that you want to see. Memorize these or carry a copy with you, it will save you a great deal of pain and money in the future:










The above list is from Paw Print Genetics. The results of the sire and dam will be on this or any DNA online account and the owner can share the link with you. The owner will also have original paperwork. Do not accept copies if you haven't seen the original or the site results. Other testing labs offer the same online sharing, including Embark, which is commonly used.


You also want to see where a vet tested the parents for Patellar Luxation. It's a manual, 5 minute test for bad knees, not uncommon in toys and minis. Parents with this are more likely to have pups with that problem; when moderate to severe, it would need expensive surgery at some point. And you have to restrict activities such as no jumping off the sofa or bed to worsen the problem.

Toy poodles do not need hip x-rays. It is recommended for minis. 

Note: Poodles have square body shapes: the length of the legs and the body should be proportional. In a Toy, this is commonly 10 inches by 10 inches. So avoid buying a poodle puppy that has unusually short legs. They are a bit short on all poodle toy pups but they lengthen. If one or both parents has short legs with a long back, it could indicate the poodle has a genetic problem called CDDY or IVDD. This causes serious problems as they get older. Embark automatically tests for this.

Btw, I looked over the website. It's based on the Craigslist Business Model but for dogs. Like Craigslist, getting a puppy from a seller who advertised there will be hit or miss with far more misses than hits, so follow the above suggestions if you go that route rather than wait several months on a recommended breeder's waitlist. And be kind to yourself: don't plunk down a deposit on a pup where you haven't met with the seller, seen the pups and mother, and reviewed the documentation. If something feels 'off' it probably is.

Let us know how it works out.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Vita said:


> When/if you get there, these are the DNA test results for the parents of a Toy or Miniature Poodle puppy that you want to see. Memorize these or carry a copy with you, it will save you a great deal of pain and money in the future:
> 
> View attachment 472529
> 
> ...


Excellent advice. Wont continue with her. She doesnt offer all of that.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

I did find this website though.
Seems pretty good.
cypresstoypoodles.com/puppies.html


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Looks quite promising. She shows her poodles, has champions and grand champions, and a litter due this month. Give her call and ask if the dam and sire are DNA tested.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Molodets said:


> I did find this website though.
> Seems pretty good.
> cypresstoypoodles.com/puppies.html


It’s worth a call. Just because her website says there are puppies available doesn’t necessarily mean there are though. It is still good to talk to the breeder and see if/when she has puppies available and if she thinks one of her puppies would be a fit for you. Just warning that I know what my breeders website says and the current situation does not always line up. I got my pup in November and at the time she had a March breeding still up in the “puppies” section. She has way more important things to do than take cutesy pics and update her website all the time.


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## Jenna2020 (Jul 28, 2020)

I have been involved in animal rescue for many years. I have have had two tiny ‘tea cup’ size poodle come into rescue over the last few years. Both were super adoptable. And also had many issues. They weren’t really dogs. One was a puppy mill survivor and never really became a normal dog( always on guard, never relaxes, paced around from years of pacing in a cage) . The other was more like a guinea pig. Struggled when picked up and never would housetrain or even act like a normal dog. Point being even if you get a cute puppy named tea cup, odds are a lot of dogs in the past have suffered to get there. And the dog will probably come with many health issues as well


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Vita is correct about DNA genotype disease testing (not DNA parentage certification) being an important companion for the total health picture.
DNA testing can be done thru independent labs such as she mentioned and the results can be listed on OFA as well as the testing lab's site.

This is how that might look on the OFA site. This is an example of testing on a toy poodle:









a different toy poodle









_There are no laws requiring any breeder to do any testing_ so you will see variance in the tests chosen. This is why setting minimum testing standards are valuable and why it's important for the searcher to learn what's important. Post #6 has the OFA/CHIC minimum testing standards and Vita has given the standard DNA disease panel.

As much as you may want to have a poodle in your life, I'm sure that you don't want to support any breeder who's doing this for profit primarily and little regard for the future health of not only your little poodle but the present health and happiness of your pups dam and sire, and for the healthy and happy future of the poodle breed.




Rose n Poos said:


> They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


There are plenty of breeders out there but they're not all breeding conscientiously and for quality.
If you want a quality pup from a breeder who does more look for breeders who:

Spend time and money researching and doing the proper health and diversity testing for their chosen breed and variety.
Spend time and money researching outside lines to breed with to improve their poodles lives.
Spend time and money proving their poodles are sound in health and temperament in competitions or activities to offer the best poodles they can and the best life for them and their new family.
Spend for full and proper vet care, feeding, living conditions for all dogs in their care.
Spend a lot of time and money to give their best.
Their primary return is satisfaction, not profit.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Hi Molodets,

I merged your three threads from the past two days into this one thread since they all have the same basic theme, and renamed the thread to "Toy and Mini Poodle Breeder Questions". This way all the questions and comments are less confusing for others to follow.

Please feel free to continue with other breeder related questions here as you search for a puppy. 

Thanks,

Vita
Super Moderator


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

So I spoke to one breeder. She has AKC toy poodle.

she Does have dna testing, since she has dna she also has Pra. Pra is A.
patellas is 1.

She will give me all paperwork for the puppy. She also told me that she doesnt have OFA since parents are toy poodles.



she asked me many questions and insisted I send her my livingroom photo, my sons photo, and how my sons behavior is. 😂

let me know what you guys think


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Molodets said:


> So I spoke to one breeder. She has AKC toy poodle.
> 
> she Does have dna testing, since she has dna she also has Par. Par is A.
> patellas is 1.


What is Par?


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Vita said:


> What is Par?


Pra


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What you're reporting she's saying doesn't make sense to me.



Molodets said:


> She also told me that she doesnt have OFA since parents are toy poodles.


This is the OFA/CHIC testing for toy poodles copied from above:

*Toy Minimum Testing Criteria*
_prcd Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) DNA testing from an approved laboratory
Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation_

What I hear internally is that she chose not to do the OFA/CHIC level testing or chose not to publish the results on OFA, but there's no reason not to do so _because_ they are toy poodles.




Molodets said:


> she Does have dna testing, since she has dna she also has Pra. Pra is A.
> patellas is 1.


Is she saying the puppy hasn't been tested? It's not the puppies that are tested. Which poodle is the patella and PRA testing done on? The results for a PRA test will read "normal/clear" or something else but "A", if a valid response, would require a key code for what that means.

Do you have the dam or sire's AKC registry names or numbers? you can verify the AKC registry if you do. You can also search PawPrints for the DNA testing if she allows public access. You can try her kennel name also.

I personally wouldn't proceed until I know the exact tests done for the OFA/CHIC level of testing, even if she doesn't publish on OFA and I'd want to know exactly what DNA tests were done, and the results, on the puppy's dam and sire.

I would also definitely ask to see her purchase contract and health warranty on her poodles.

This will seem random, but it's not. Does she offer a choice of buying a pup on limited or full registration, but make no mention of full registration being a co-ownership contract arrangement?


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

She was talking about dam and sire, not the puppy.
The rest I will find out


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I hope you understand why I'm asking so many questions. I know you're navigating unfamiliar territory. There just isn't enough information yet for me to say if I'd consider them for myself, so I keep asking. 

Ultimately, all decisions are yours to make. By getting a sense of what could be done by a breeder for their poodles, you'll be better equipped to know what you want from a breeder. 

Full and proper health testing with good/clear/normal results in all tests is the ideal, but it's still not a 100% guarantee. Mutations, conditions which there are no tests for yet, injuries, all these can happen still. 

The testing gives much better odds against developing the conditions tested for. 

I asked about contracts because I've seen many of those too. If a breeder excludes condition X from their warranty and condition X could have been tested for in the sire and dam but wasn't, that's not helpful to you as the buyer. In that case the breeder could have improved the odds but chose not to.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

this is Max. He is 10 month old mini.
I know he is not show quality.
But does he look ok in proportions?
Thank you


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Molodets said:


> My neighbor bought poodle from amish in 2002, the dog is still alive, no major problems or behavior issues.
> My classmate, orthopedic surgeon bought 2 mini poodles in 2006 and 2007, also from amish, they are fine. I have an employee, also has poodle from byb from 2010 also no major problems.
> I can name you more,
> Please understand Im not saying All byb and amish sell 100% excellent puppies, but most of them do.


Although there may be some reputable breeders in the Amish community, they generally breed for the pet store market and with no attention at all to quality or health. I would avoid them and use some of the excellent recommendations previously posted.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Molodets said:


> Here is breeder that has Mini Poodle female for sale. 3k
> 6 month old.
> 
> This is what she told me.
> ...


I do not see anything about testing for genetic diseases and 3K is way above the usual price for a puppy. Keep looking.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Molodets said:


> this is Max. He is 10 month old mini.
> I know he is not show quality.
> But does he look ok in proportions?
> Thank you
> View attachment 472604


Compared to the average toy I see, he is not too bad. Proportions are decent. But he does have a tail that was docked a bit short, indicating poor knowledge of the breeder. Personally patellas would be extremely important to me if I was looking at toys. I'd like to see the parents had been cleared for patellar luxation. It is so common and surgical fix is so expensive.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Molodets said:


> Thank you so much. You gave me such a good information and you saved me bunch of unneeded hassle and idiocy.
> 
> This is what breeder replied to me after I asked about short legs.
> 
> *“ mother has middle legs height and Father is short legs”*



These dogs should not be breeding stock then.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Compared to the average toy I see, he is not too bad. Proportions are decent. But he does have a tail that was docked a bit short, indicating poor knowledge of the breeder. Personally patellas would be extremely important to me if I was looking at toys. I'd like to see the parents had been cleared for patellar luxation. It is so common and surgical fix is so expensive.


He is Miniature poodle not toy


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2021)

Molodets said:


> A teacup breeder I found seems to be honest and has nice looking puppies.
> 
> the mother is 4lbs, height is 7” and father is 3 lbs height is 6”.
> both are abt 8 years old. thats her 4th litter.
> ...





Molodets said:


> A teacup breeder I found seems to be honest and has nice looking puppies.
> 
> the mother is 4lbs, height is 7” and father is 3 lbs height is 6”.
> both are abt 8 years old. thats her 4th litter.
> ...


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## Shalimar (Jan 6, 2021)

Molodets said:


> A teacup breeder I found seems to be honest and has nice looking puppies.
> 
> the mother is 4lbs, height is 7” and father is 3 lbs height is 6”.
> both are abt 8 years old. thats her 4th litter.
> ...


please share the name and location of the breeder. wants to find a female teacup poodle. Shalimar


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Molodets said:


> He is Miniature poodle not toy


Sorry, my mistake. In that case I would definitely also want to see the hips of the parents tested through OFA or pennhip. But patellar luxation is still a huge issue for minis as well and I would not purchase a dog without knowledge that the relatives were clear. I say "I" because we all have to make our own decisions, and I can only speak based on my experiences.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Shalimar said:


> wants to find a female teacup poodle.


From this one thread alone



twyla said:


> Tea cup is not a size by the way in any breed dog it is a gimmick
> There are only toy, miniature and Standard poodles.
> Any breeder advertising teacup poodles I wouldn't buy from.
> 
> ...





Dechi said:


> « Teacup » is a marketing term to sell dogs at a higher price. It is used by unscrupulous people who don’t care about the breed, or are completely ignorant of the breed standard. There is no such thing as a teacup poodle. Very small dogs are more fragile with more health problems and ethical breeders do not purposely breed them.
> 
> Stay away from anyone who uses this term to talk about their breeding or dogs. There is a list of ethical breeders on this forum.





cowpony said:


> Teacup = bad idea. Nature designed dogs to be medium or large sized animals. Dogs can only be shrunk a certain amount before the structure and proportions of the animal no longer work. Healthy tiny mammals don't have a dog-like design. They look like rats, mice, shrews, martins, and so forth. They typically have short little legs, very flexible spines, and organs optimally proportioned for their size. Toy poodles are pretty close to the non-viable cutoff point for size. Shrinking them even further to rat size is asking for health problems.





Eclipse said:


> you have received lots of good advice here about avoiding teacup toys. If you want a well-bred normal size toy I would start researching and reaching out to breeders now. Many of them have waiting lists for next year and beyond and since toys often have small litters, and sometimes even single pups, you need to start looking early. I don't know who Rodell is so can't comment on them, but Silvabirch is Barbara Hoopes and she has fantastic toys. She shows her pups in breed and finishes them to their Ch. and then also shows in performance, especially agility. She health tests all her breeding dogs above and beyond what is required. If you are interested in a puppy this year, I would reach out to her and find out what her future breeding plans are.





lily cd re said:


> Getting a good puppy will likely mean waiting. The reason great breeders end up with wait lists is that they are great breeders with great reputations and happy healthy puppies. fjm is right that cute pics are gimmicky and shouldn't be decision making items. Please stop looking at all ads for teacup poodles. This is a marketing gimmick too and there is no such thing as a teacup poodle, yorkie or any other breed. These tiny dogs are fragile and often are not from the best parents so may have health or temperament problems.





Rose n Poos said:


> Short legs in any size poodle is a genetic mutation and can be a sign of a life threatening disease, Chondrodystrophy (CDDY and IVDD Risk), and Chondrodysplasia (CDPA).


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> From this one thread alone


Excellent thread for people to know who to purchase a healthy puppy


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Molodets said:


> this is Max. He is 10 month old mini.
> I know he is not show quality.
> But does he look ok in proportions?
> Thank you
> View attachment 472604


We can’t tell a lot because he doesn’t have a clean face. His tail is docked too short, which indicates a novice breeder or someone who just isn’t knowledgeable about the poodle standard. His general appearance isn’t bad but his back is too long. He is more rectangle than square.

He is an okay dog.


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## 1male1n1f (Jul 29, 2017)

Molodets said:


> A teacup breeder I found seems to be honest and has nice looking puppies.
> 
> the mother is 4lbs, height is 7” and father is 3 lbs height is 6”.
> both are abt 8 years old. thats her 4th litter.
> ...


These parents are too small and too old. If you want tiny, get a Yorkie or a Chihuahua. The elegance, personality, and joyful vitality of a poodle would be seriously compromised if only 3 or 4 pounds. Breeders who show pups in bows and dresses, rhinestones, or sentimental settings like baskets, water cans, etc, are awful!. You want healthy and sturdy because you will love the dog and not want it to suffer or die early. You could ask a reputable breeder to let you have the "runt" or smallest of the litter - but it may well catch up in size and weight as it grows up.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)




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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Molodets said:


> View attachment 472633
> View attachment 472634


Always request the breeder sends pictures showing the dog stacked. That is in a standing and balanced position.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Molodets, I can see you really want a small poodle, preferably toy. Perhaps you are simply not aware yet of all of the things you need to look for. The clearest and best explanations on here are from Rose n Poos. If you will go back to the beginning of this thread, and carefully read each of her posts you will gain a lot of understanding. I especially recommend her post where she lists the breeders she has scoped out. She spent many months checking breeders! Then contact those breeders. 

Please quit finding miscellaneous photos and advertisements of puppies/dogs with no breeder reference or website. There is no way for us to check them out. You have received so much valuable information here, but it can be confusing to have many often incomplete answers. Wishing you luck!!!


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

kontiki said:


> Molodets, I can see you really want a small poodle, preferably toy. Perhaps you are simply not aware yet of all of the things you need to look for. The clearest and best explanations on here are from Rose n Poos. If you will go back to the beginning of this thread, and carefully read each of her posts you will gain a lot of understanding. I especially recommend her post where she lists the breeders she has scoped out. She spent many months checking breeders! Then contact those breeders.
> 
> Please quit finding miscellaneous photos and advertisements of puppies/dogs with no breeder reference or website. There is no way for us to check them out. You have received so much valuable information here, but it can be confusing to have many often incomplete answers. Wishing you luck!!!


I actually spoke to Rose and she really helped me and gave me excellent information. I was just sharing photos with you guys on this post 😊


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

*Sire*











*Dam*










*Their little boy*


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Molodets said:


> this is Max. He is 10 month old mini.
> I know he is not show quality.
> But does he look ok in proportions?
> Thank you
> View attachment 472604


Molodets, from my understanding you only want a pet, not a poodle to breed or show. If you meet or met him, and he:

likes you and you like him, and 
his DNA results are good, and 
his patellar luxation exam by a vet is fine, and
he's guaranteed housebroken, and 
the price is good with no pesky co-ownership contract strings.
then there's nothing wrong with this dog beyond his tailset being a little low which only poodle fans would recognize. He has nice thick coat. To me he looks more robust in health than the runny-eyed, thin-haired silver pup from the good breeder who shows her dogs and both parents are champs.

Looks like a nice companion poodle. If the above checks off, I see no reason to not buy or adopt him.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I believe that Max, the red 10m old mini is already owned. The last little fluff pup in post 81 is the one being currently considered.


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> I believe that Max, the red 10m old mini is already owned. The last little fluff pup in post 81 is the one being currently considered.


Correct


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

So Molodets, why did you show a photo of the 10 month old red poodle? What was the point?


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## Molodets (Dec 25, 2020)

I had questions and wanted advice from people who know.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Molodets said:


> I had questions and wanted advice from people who know.


Seems excessive.


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## TinaLina (May 8, 2021)

Molodets said:


> Here is breeder that has Mini Poodle female for sale. 3k
> 6 month old.
> 
> This is what she told me.
> ...


could you please share this breeder's contact info with me? Thank you!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

TinaLina said:


> could you please share this breeder's contact info with me? Thank you!


(Molodets, apologies for stepping in until you see and respond. Hope things are still improving for you all.)

It will be informational for you to read thru this entire thread. FYI, one of our Moderators searched the site and found troubling info on them.


PeggyTheParti said:


> I googled the site this puppy is posted on, and the very bad reviews are worrisome. Sounds like it’s a haven for puppy millers and scam artists. So be doubly sure to look past the cute pics, as tempting as they might be.


See this specific post for things to look for in a quality breeder, things to consider, and things to avoid, if you want a well bred puppy from health tested parents.









Toy & Mini Poodle Breeder Questions


Totally agree. I thought the same thing. Father looks like a stuffed toy. There breeders are really disgusting people, full of bs and terrible breeding. This forum is amazing. Breeder asses should be really punished somehow. Every time they do something wrong with these puppies, there should...




www.poodleforum.com


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