# How do you determine the COI percentage?



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

And what percentage would you want to shoot for when looking for a puppy?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Fluffyspoos said:


> And what percentage would you want to shoot for when looking for a puppy?


On poodlepedigree you can look at it under genetic pedigree info.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=COI+dog&aq=f&aqi=g2&oq=&fp=a50ffc77dda4c0bc

Read the PDF file called COEFFICIENT OF INBREEDING (COI) CALCULATION

great info in it


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

The COI is not everything when looking for a puppy health is important too The dogs being bred could have a very low COI and yet have a pedigree loaded with health problems. so be sure when looking that the breeder has both Certifiable health testing such as CHIC or OFA results.. In reds you will find higher coi due to the fact that a color or type as you will is being established. So the coi will be higher in many instances This does not mean that the dogs are Unhealthy it just means that lots of linebreeding has carefully and thoughtfully been done to produce the "Type" Or The Color. Usuall y a breeder will go in (Linebreed or inbreed then go out or outcross) I know that it seems very confusing  But a good breeder with knowlegde in any color can surely help you decide what is best for you


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Well what are you looking for?

A poorly bred Poodle is a poorly bred Poodle regardless of the COI. I've seen breeders brag about the low COI of a breeding poodle that itself looks like a collection of parts that all fell off the ugly truck. 

Conversely, a puppy with a very high COI who has amazing and healthy parents is going to be a Poodle puppy who got a double dose of all those great genes. 

I think the best thing to do is to really know the dogs in the pedigree of the puppy you want to buy.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

:decision: HURRAY I AGREE!!! Thanks CBrand at least I know I am not crazy !!!!!!


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

i agree with both as well.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Darnit, I typed up my reply and my browser didn't send it..

I'm not looking for anything specific, after seeing the thread on frozen semen and how one stud fathered hundreds of poodles, some of which got fetal diseases, I wanted to educated myself on it a little. Thanks so much for telling me about how you can look it up on poodlepedigree, Roxy, that's tons of help.

I found an article where it said that poodles with a COI of 20%+ on averaged lived four years less than dogs with less than a 6% COI. It didn't say anything about health testing, so you don't know the rest stats on all of the dogs that were involved in that average.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Wow. WOW!

This dog's COI is 93%!

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=49633

How about that number? Lol.. is that bad?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Wow. WOW!
> 
> This dog's COI is 93%!
> 
> ...


Gulp! The Wycliffe line was known for very, very close linebreedings, but that pedigree pretty much takes the cake. 

I will say this though, for better or for worse the Wycliffe dogs stamped the look of the modern Standard Poodle.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

If you are into low COI's, which I am, the ideal is less than ten. It is stated on the Canine Diversity Project that less than ten usually means four extra years. While it isn`t the end all and be all when choosing a puppy, it should certainly be a consideration when looking for a healthy bloodline in a pup. 

The higher the number, the more the common ancestors. The more common ancestors in a pedigree, the higher the risk of health issues. There is no reason now that you cannot find a puppy with a low COI who is also beautiful to look at and is extremely healthy.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> The higher the number, the more the common ancestors. The more common ancestors in a pedigree, the higher the risk of health issues.


This is not true. The more common ancestors the higher the chance of doubling up on recessive genes that cause health issues. 

However, I've seen BYB poodles with very low COI produce litters with JRD and Addisons. COI does you no good if you don't know the history of the dogs in the pedigree.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I said exactly what you said, but in different words. The more the common ancestors, the HIGHER the risks.

And yes, people need to research pedigrees like crazy and get health testing information from a breeder they may be interested in. The Poodle Health Registry is a good place to start looking for problems, BUT, there is nothing in place which requires an owner to report issues that do exist, so we are relying on the honesty of the breeders to report these things, and a lot won`t for fear of hurting their business.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I said exactly what you said, but in different words. The more the common ancestors, the HIGHER the risks.
> 
> And yes, people need to research pedigrees like crazy and get health testing information from a breeder they may be interested in. The Poodle Health Registry is a good place to start looking for problems, BUT, there is nothing in place which requires an owner to report issues that do exist, so we are relying on the honesty of the breeders to report these things, and a lot won`t for fear of hurting their business.


That is very true a lot of breeders want to hide stuff to keep their reputation.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> That is very true a lot of breeders want to hide stuff to keep their reputation.


then if they cannot produce what you need to see do not buy from them Why perpetuate a problem ? That is where the issues come from . We need to test the foundation dogs in our breeding programs. Not relying on what someone has told us . If its not there. either in CHIC or OFFA then it is not happening. That is the problem not the COI. You can have a super low COI with no testing and that means nothing .. You can still be producing eye, hip and bleeding issues..God this COI thing really stitcks in my craw . Why get hung up on something that is without proof. Heath testing is proof COI without testing is nothing !!!!!IMHO That is


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> then if they cannot produce what you need to see do not buy from them Why perpetuate a problem ? That is where the issues come from . We need to test the foundation dogs in our breeding programs. Not relying on what someone has told us . If its not there. either in CHIC or OFFA then it is not happening. That is the problem not the COI. You can have a super low COI with no testing and that means nothing .. You can still be producing eye, hip and bleeding issues..God this COI thing really stitcks in my craw . Why get hung up on something that is without proof. Heath testing is proof COI without testing is nothing !!!!!IMHO That is


If a breeder is hiding that they produced a dog with addison's how would you know ? its not mandatory to report to PHR .... this is what I am talking about. There is not test for it. So you could be thinking you are getting something you want and never know about the breeders issues. This is why pedigree research is key.

I am not hung on low COI either I have experienced genetic issues with my cats that where not even related. So I already know low COI means crap same thing when people say high COI means health issues. I have seen breedings done SEVERAL times that where mother to son and vice versa and the dogs came out find. ( another breed tho) so its not all bad you just have to know what you are doing.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't understand why we are arguing about health testing in a thread about coi. Any breeder that is reputable and in their right mind fully health tests their dogs!!!! However unfortunately the coi of the dogs is just not being recognized as the seperate issue that it is. It is not to replace the health testing but rather serve as another tool that breeders can use to insure that they are producing the best and longest lived puppies that they can.

Its also being stated tha an ugly puppy is an ugly puppy regardless of coi. True no one is arguing that either. What we are stating is why can't we be working towards producing the longest living, best health, best temperament and best conformation all at the same time. To do this I would think it should behoove us to use all the tools that we have at hand to do so and not just cop out and say because I'm working on part of it I don't need to work on the rest of it. 

Since there are studies like the canine diversity project that point out the importance of a low coi and if we look to other animal breeders that do not tend to produce animals with the coi levels that we see in many dog breeds it is something that we should be asking ourselves if we should perhaps be paying more attention to.

The problem is that line breeding is something that should be done for a short time to produce a specific result and then we should be again be working towards keeping our genetic diversity high to ensure the long term health of the breed by increasing the size the gene pool.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> If a breeder is hiding that they produced a dog with addison's how would you know ? its not mandatory to report to PHR .... this is what I am talking about. There is not test for it. So you could be thinking you are getting something you want and never know about the breeders issues. This is why pedigree research is key.
> 
> I am not hung on low COI either I have experienced genetic issues with my cats that where not even related. So I already know low COI means crap same thing when people say high COI means health issues. I have seen breedings done SEVERAL times that where mother to son and vice versa and the dogs came out find. ( another breed tho) so its not all bad you just have to know what you are doing.


How does one know if a breeder who is breeding dogs with high COI's or doing a lot of linebreeding KNOWS what they are doing? Are they breeding two particular dogs because they see a way to improve quality and health, or is it a mere matter of convenience? A number of breeders who THOUGHT they knew what they were doing when line breeding have had health issues crop up, then its a matter of "Oops, I guess I shouldn't have done that" while the poor families who bought their puppies now get to watch their dogs die. If they had researched the lines better and considered the seriousness of the recessive genes in a linebred dog, this would not have happened. And one of the ways to check into this is through the COI!!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

So, according to ther response from the link on the Wycliffe dog at 93%, his COI is too high. But 10% is nothing to get yourself worked up about. What IS acceptable then?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

There is no arguing going on here the questions was What is an acceptable COI and the answer was that health testing is more important. You cannot have a low COI with no testing . What is there to argue about? The answer is buy from breeders who have health testing that you can verify and if you plan to breed KNOW Who you are buying from Do not get hung on COI it is not the end all be all tha is all No arguing ? OFFA and CHIC are where the answers lie What do you think was done before COI? Seriously ?


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> There is no arguing going on here the questions was What is an acceptable COI and the answer was that health testing is more important. You cannot have a low COI with no testing . What is there to argue about? The answer is buy from breeders who have health testing that you can verify and if you plan to breed KNOW Who you are buying from Do not get hung on COI it is not the end all be all tha is all No arguing ? OFFA and CHIC are where the answers lie What do you think was done before COI? Seriously ?


Again I state that coi and health testing are seperate things. Why shouldn't we be concerned with both??


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> How does one know if a breeder who is breeding dogs with high COI's or doing a lot of linebreeding KNOWS what they are doing? Are they breeding two particular dogs because they see a way to improve quality and health, or is it a mere matter of convenience? A number of breeders who THOUGHT they knew what they were doing when line breeding have had health issues crop up, then its a matter of "Oops, I guess I shouldn't have done that" while the poor families who bought their puppies now get to watch their dogs die. If they had researched the lines better and considered the seriousness of the recessive genes in a linebred dog, this would not have happened. And one of the ways to check into this is through the COI!!


No matter what you do a health issue that we cannot test for will crop up We can only do the best that we can do But not testing and depending on a low COI is an equation for disaster. Breeders will always have things crop up it is the law of adverages. No one can guarantee agaist bloat in a contract? Or Addisons ? No way can you do that there is not test for that, that is building repoir with fellow breeders . So being careful is key... Knowing what is behind you is important, talking to people is important as well , Knowing the pedigree is important , how long did the dog live and what did it die from that is a responsibility as a breeder .I am done with this thread is is going no where. Bye


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

The COI was developed because someone began to realize something was going on and there must be an answer. It is a tool to help us determine who we should be breeding to and who should be bred to who. Health testing and COI go hand in hand IMO. One is no less or more important than the other IMO.

In 1979 there was no test for HIV, but by 1983 there was. So should we not believe in the result of the difference it has made because it is new and was not used before?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> How does one know if a breeder who is breeding dogs with high COI's or doing a lot of linebreeding KNOWS what they are doing? Are they breeding two particular dogs because they see a way to improve quality and health, or is it a mere matter of convenience? A number of breeders who THOUGHT they knew what they were doing when line breeding have had health issues crop up, then its a matter of "Oops, I guess I shouldn't have done that" while the poor families who bought their puppies now get to watch their dogs die. If they had researched the lines better and considered the seriousness of the recessive genes in a linebred dog, this would not have happened. And one of the ways to check into this is through the COI!!


because the breed I am talking about are not poodles , I did note that. These breeders have been inbreeding for over 70-100 years now. I would think That is enough experience lol

I think both COI and health testing is important but I am not going to say low COI means healthier dogs.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> So, according to ther response from the link on the Wycliffe dog at 93%, his COI is too high. But 10% is nothing to get yourself worked up about. What IS acceptable then?


Did you look at that dog's pedigree? 

I would not advocate returning to the breeding practices of the Wycliffe kennel, but hanging a hat on a low COI disregards the advantages of doubling or tripling up on a really great dog. 

If you have a Poodle who has great physical type, who is healthy at an older age (and who has produced healthy) and who produces great working temperament (as evidenced by offspring who have titled in performance events) then why not linebreed on him? As a breeder, you will be strongly setting a really high quality type.

As a breeder, I could go breed my bitch to someone's BYB stud and get a low COI. However, how would that be a purposeful breeding? What is the advantage of breeding to a dog with a mixed bag pedigree of untitled, BYB dogs with unknown history? Low COI? There is more to breeding dogs than that.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

Long term inbreeding/linebreeding has a direct effect on the diversity of the MHC (major histocompatibility complex).
There comes a time when a tipping point occurs, and the rise in autoimmune disease is one example. A low COI is a tool, but better yet, finding remnants of old lines, from Russia for example, is more likely to bring real diversity.
There is a rumor of standard poodles in Cuba, since the ban started before the Wycliffe bottleneck, that could be a true infusion of diversity.
This article is a long, but good read explaining the MHC

http://www.genetica.se/_manuskript/natural protection.doc

Carole


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Did you look at that dog's pedigree?
> 
> I would not advocate returning to the breeding practices of the Wycliffe kennel, but hanging a hat on a low COI disregards the advantages of doubling or tripling up on a really great dog.
> 
> ...


I am not "hanging a hat" on a low COI. I have said it should be used as a tool, hand in hand with researching pedigrees and health testing, to try and improve the situation as it is today (particularly in the reds, whose gene pool is so tight). I have never been opposed to the occaissional linebreeding if it is done carefullly, by breeders who know what they are doing. But once done, care needs to be taken to breed the following generations selectively and with good health and longevity playing a big role in your choices.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Someone please explain to me why you would want to tightly line breed a dog if you could outcross and get the same physical and temperamental attributes? If you research enough you should be able to outcross and get what you are looking for in your litter just based on the genetics of both parents. The word "type" is subjective. It changes from one year to the next so there is no true "type." There are variations to type from one coast to another. That to me is an invalid argument to continue to line breed dogs that you know are suffering with plenty of health issues. I've seen a kennel produce typey dogs with mostly outcrossing and everything those dogs produce is obvious. 

To me breeding is one of those things that takes a lot of preparation and research and there has to be some goal in mind in order to produce a litter of puppies because most will end up in pet homes and not stay with the breeder.

Seeing as how a very high COI is proven to double or triple issues one would think that you need to go in the other direction to see if that will help solve issues. It might not be the answer to everything but how are you going to find answers if you continue to do what you are doing already?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Dogsinstyle said:


> Long term inbreeding/linebreeding has a direct effect on the diversity of the MHC (major histocompatibility complex).
> There comes a time when a tipping point occurs, and the rise in autoimmune disease is one example. A low COI is a tool, but better yet, finding remnants of old lines, from Russia for example, is more likely to bring real diversity.


And ironically, the one imported Russian stud I know produced puppies with both SA and Addisons.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Someone please explain to me why you would want to tightly line breed a dog if you could outcross and get the same physical and temperamental attributes? If you research enough you should be able to outcross and get what you are looking for in your litter just based on the genetics of both parents. The word "type" is subjective. It changes from one year to the next so there is no true "type." There are variations to type from one coast to another. That to me is an invalid argument to continue to line breed dogs that you know are suffering with plenty of health issues. I've seen a kennel produce typey dogs with mostly outcrossing and everything those dogs produce is obvious.
> 
> To me breeding is one of those things that takes a lot of preparation and research and there has to be some goal in mind in order to produce a litter of puppies because most will end up in pet homes and not stay with the breeder.
> 
> Seeing as how a very high COI is proven to double or triple issues one would think that you need to go in the other direction to see if that will help solve issues. It might not be the answer to everything but how are you going to find answers if you continue to do what you are doing already?


I couldn't agree with you more!!!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Seeing as how a very high COI is proven to double or triple issues one would think that you need to go in the other direction to see if that will help solve issues. It might not be the answer to everything but how are you going to find answers if you continue to do what you are doing already?


Because a low COI won't necessarily protect you from Addisons, Bloat, SA and Epilepsy.

I could do a complete outcross to a different line and I would have to TRUST that the breeder is knowledgeable about what is in their lines (sooooo many are not as we have seen) and that the breeder is honest.

Or, I could line breed and stay with what I know for sure is healthy and good quality. 

What as a breeder should I do? 

I am personally facing this question in the next two years. Delilah is brown and I'd like to go forward with that color. The Brown pedigrees in this country and even in Europe are very tight. There are very few good Brown or Black/Brown studs who are not related to my girl in some way. The ones that are not related have health issues I'm looking to avoid.

So my choices are: 

Linebreed to quality Brown or Black/Brown
Outcross to quality Brown with known health issues
Outcross BYB unrelated Browns (lose quality, unknown health)
Outcross to quality Black (lose color in 1st generation)

For me, I believe that I will choose linebreeding and outcrossing to quality Black. By bouncing back and forth between Black and linebred Brown, I can slowly increase diversity. I will not always get color, but hopefully I will keep good quality and health.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, my point was that you'd have to do some serious research into the dogs in the pedigree that you liked. If you find a dog you like in temperament and color and type then you'd have to take a lot of time finding out what that dog came of in order to make the decision to use it in your breeding program.

I was just reading this collie website (collies have a lot of health issues) and it talked about the MHC a lot. It's a lot of reading sure but it's worth it to read it. Outcrossing isn't the cure but it can help. The problem is that people produce puppies and breeds based on what they want to *see* and forget about the things that can come up much later on when so many dogs are related. A good point on the collie website was, what if your breed develops a sensitivity to certain drugs, whether vaccines or drugs used to treat infection or sedate the animal for surgery? If you have a breed that is so closely related that majority are affected, you lose many dogs in that breed. It's a very deep topic and would take forever to research.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Well, my point was that you'd have to do some serious research into the dogs in the pedigree that you liked. If you find a dog you like in temperament and color and type then you'd have to take a lot of time finding out what that dog came of in order to make the decision to use it in your breeding program.
> 
> I was just reading this collie website (collies have a lot of health issues) and it talked about the MHC a lot. It's a lot of reading sure but it's worth it to read it. Outcrossing isn't the cure but it can help. The problem is that people produce puppies and breeds based on what they want to *see* and forget about the things that can come up much later on when so many dogs are related. A good point on the collie website was, what if your breed develops a sensitivity to certain drugs, whether vaccines or drugs used to treat infection or sedate the animal for surgery? If you have a breed that is so closely related that majority are affected, you lose many dogs in that breed. It's a very deep topic and would take forever to research.


That is all well and good, but there is only so much research you can actually do into a line, as not every affected dog in a line is reported, and you would therefore have to only go on hearsay etc.

That's why I think that linebreeding done in small amounts, and then out-crossed to a great quality dog/bitch is great, as then you have far more control over your breeding, and you can go by what you know is true, thus giving you a higher chance of success.

So, I completely agree with what cbrand wants to do with her bitch Delilah, as it seems logical, and is the best way to ensure success. Because, is you do go by out crossing all the time, and something does go wrong, you have then wasted years of breeding and your whole line is screwed, and you have potentially wrecked the chance you have to breed your perfectly healthy bitch, as you have used her already (with what seems good stud)

So, I think line-breeding should be done, but under very stringent conditions and only by people who really know what they're doing, as why take the chance as you really only have a couple of opportunities to get it right with your bitch

Just my 2 cents


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Well, you kind of invalidate your point though. If there is only so much research you can do into a line, how would you trust that to breed back to the same line? I ask questions to learn not to be snarky so I'm just arguing the point to get the answers.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Because a low COI won't necessarily protect you from Addisons, Bloat, SA and Epilepsy.
> 
> I could do a complete outcross to a different line and I would have to TRUST that the breeder is knowledgeable about what is in their lines (sooooo many are not as we have seen) and that the breeder is honest.
> 
> ...


Cbrand that is absolutely right inbreed outcross inbreed outcross. That is how you keep type. CLAPPING!!!!!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

So how many other breeds are doing COI ?


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Well, you kind of invalidate your point though. If there is only so much research you can do into a line, how would you trust that to breed back to the same line? I ask questions to learn not to be snarky so I'm just arguing the point to get the answers.


Sorry if I came across rude to you, I really didn't mean to be rude, sorry 

Well, one would hope that the line that they have started they know well enough and have a good relationship with their breeder to actually know what is within the line they are starting. You wouldn't really get that with another breeder whose lines you are considering using, unless you were very fortunate. So, I meant line breeding in establishing a line, because there would only be so many studs etc that you trusted enough to use, and you couldn't just keep using them again and again. This is confusing me too lol. So, basically if you do what cbrand wants to do with her Delilah, and then out cross like she said.
So, basically if you kept on out crossing for every single breeding, there would only be so many studs that you could trust at that time to breed with out eventually something happening that could put your line in jeopardy, and then you can't really go back to the start of your line as it's too late.

So one would hope that there were some lines you could start off with that you knew and trusted well enough, and I meant that if say you liked the look (not literally) of this stud over say in Germany, there _could_ only be so much research you could do into that line as not every thing is reported and you would have to go by the word of the breeder and people who knew that line, and you might not know them well enough, like your original breeder, to incorporate their line. So, I think it can be best to linebreed to a degree to start a healthy line.

I honestly didn't mean to be rude to you kpoos, it is really hard to get tone across over a keyboard, and I just meant to offer my opinion and add to and argue the points of what others had said


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Oh didn't thing you were at all. I put that in there in case someone thought I was just arguing a point to argue. I truly enjoy learning these things about dogs. To me it's all important and I like learning something new everyday.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Oh didn't thing you were at all. I put that in there in case someone thought I was just arguing a point to argue. I truly enjoy learning these things about dogs. To me it's all important and I like learning something new everyday.


Whoops, I just reread your previous post and I misread it 
That's exactly what this should all be about
Well said


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Oh didn't thing you were at all. I put that in there in case someone thought I was just arguing a point to argue. I truly enjoy learning these things about dogs. To me it's all important and I like learning something new everyday.


That's exactly why I asked the question in the first place. lol. Why is it okay to linebreed in dogs, but not people. Are we really that screwed up that we get ALL the bad genes? (No.. my cousin or any other relative isn't looking particularly hot at the moment.. (or ever))


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> That's exactly why I asked the question in the first place. lol. Why is it okay to linebreed in dogs, but not people. Are we really that screwed up that we get ALL the bad genes? (No.. my cousin or any other relative isn't looking particularly hot at the moment.. (or ever))


Because humans (usually) breed with who they want to, because they love them and want to have children.

Dogs don't really care about who they breed with, so it is up to us how we breed them healthily. So it is illegal to breed with close relatives as it is not about having the most healthy children more intelligent than the parents (from a scientific point of view), so there is more of a chance of things going wrong


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

How would you know if you were linebreeding in people ? So we are outcrossed with a low COI yet humans have a multitude of problems hmmmmm Food for thought eh ? So no answer to what other breeds are doing COI ?


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> How would you know if you were linebreeding in people ? So we are outcrossed with a low COI yet humans have a multitude of problems hmmmmm Food for thought eh ? So no answer to what other breeds are doing COI ?


No idea about other breeds with COI.
Well, we generally know who are ancestors are going back to our great grandparents, after that, I wouldn't really call it linebreeding.
There are some unfortunate cases (sometimes not on their part) where very close relatives separated when they were young, meet and fall in love finding out the truth later


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> How would you know if you were linebreeding in people ? So we are outcrossed with a low COI yet humans have a multitude of problems hmmmmm Food for thought eh ? So no answer to what other breeds are doing COI ?


Oh, I guess you have a point there.

I imagine other breeds, especially rare ones, do COI?


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Wow. WOW!
> 
> This dog's COI is 93%!
> 
> ...


Going back to this,
this dog
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/coi.asp?ID=142951

has a COI of
10-generation COI	112.01%
12-generation COI	115.23%
is that even possible? It doesn't stop at 100%?


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

That isn't possible, it is a flaw in the program that poodle pedigree uses.
The Standard Poodle Database does a true calculation, the Poodle Health Registry uses the same one- http://www.phrdatabase.com/ -if you want a correct COI, look there, or get the SPD, they sell them at PCA each year.
Carole


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> How would you know if you were linebreeding in people ? So we are outcrossed with a low COI yet humans have a multitude of problems hmmmmm Food for thought eh ? So no answer to what other breeds are doing COI ?


A lot of the problems humans have are self created or enviromental. A lot of heart disease could be prevented, but some still choose to smoke or be obese. MS and Parkinsons is thought to be from a virus that has settled in to the body then resurfaced later as something else. Many cancers could be prevented if we ate right and looked after our bodies. AIDS is a threat, but many still practice unsafe sex. We live on a polluted planet, eating food that is full of additives and antibiotics, taking pills for anything that ails us, drinking to excess, basically abusing ourselves at every turn. So comparing humans to canines is like comparing apples to oranges. Thank God with all of the other stupid crap we do to ourselves that it is for the most part illegal for us to linebreed/inbreed or the human race would have imploded a long time ago. We are the ones in control about what happens with purebred dogs, so it is up to us to make sure we breed responsibly.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

If you are comparing the effects of a high COI in dogs to people, think about it like closed populations in humans. Iceland has higher incidents of specific health problems because it's an island. So do certain tribal people, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, as well as the Acadian (Cajun) people who settled in New Orleans, because they often didn't mix with other groups. Most famously, the royal families of Europe had a great many health problems, largely due to inbreeding. There's a reason we don't allow humans to marry their relatives, and there's no reason dogs should.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> A lot of the problems humans have are self created or enviromental. A lot of heart disease could be prevented, but some still choose to smoke or be obese. MS and Parkinsons is thought to be from a virus that has settled in to the body then resurfaced later as something else. Many cancers could be prevented if we ate right and looked after our bodies. AIDS is a threat, but many still practice unsafe sex. We live on a polluted planet, eating food that is full of additives and antibiotics, taking pills for anything that ails us, drinking to excess, basically abusing ourselves at every turn. So comparing humans to canines is like comparing apples to oranges. Thank God with all of the other stupid crap we do to ourselves that it is for the most part illegal for us to linebreed/inbreed or the human race would have imploded a long time ago. We are the ones in control about what happens with purebred dogs, so it is up to us to make sure we breed responsibly.


Agreed but not all there are mental retardation issues that are hereditary There is diabetes , there is epilepsy there are genetic blood diseases Yes alot of things are self caused BUT They are in canines as well ....Human caused in canines Canines are obese which can kill then Canines can get diabetes canine can get cancer from the environment This is not all caused by COI. 
And I guess you are not familiar with the different races that do inbreed , or you would not make that statement . There are several tribes that do alot of inbreeding the paligomists do alot of inbreeding.MANY MORE ! READ up on it .


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Oh, I guess you have a point there.
> 
> I imagine other breeds, especially rare ones, do COI?


It would be interesting to find out no wouldn't it ? If COI were that *HUGE* of an issue ALL breeds would be doing it correct ? Why don't the poodle people focus on getting a GENETIC test for PRA Then we could clear our lines like the Setters ? It would be priceless to me . Running the dogs 5 hours one way EVERY year is a drag !


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

There IS a test for PRA.
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test_pra_poodle.html


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Dogsinstyle said:


> If you are comparing the effects of a high COI in dogs to people, think about it like closed populations in humans. Iceland has higher incidents of specific health problems because it's an island. So do certain tribal people, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, as well as the Acadian (Cajun) people who settled in New Orleans, because they often didn't mix with other groups. Most famously, the royal families of Europe had a great many health problems, largely due to inbreeding. There's a reason we don't allow humans to marry their relatives, and there's no reason dogs should.


You are correct . However to establish Type or to keep type sometimes we must go back into the line a breed to a genetically clear dog that has attained an age that most health problems can arise.. I think the issue here is more using COI instead of health testing every other generation.. That using COI as the end all be all..This is a bad way to breed That is what started the thread. Being stuck on doing only low COI, and making it sound like that is the only way ... That was the issue The people thing was just an I wonder if ? And I also agree that the poodle pedigree database is very flawed.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

prcd-PRA TestPoodle
For: Toy and Miniature Poodles I have Standard poodles When will this be available for Standards Is my question ?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Dogsinstyle said:


> That isn't possible, it is a flaw in the program that poodle pedigree uses.
> The Standard Poodle Database does a true calculation, the Poodle Health Registry uses the same one- http://www.phrdatabase.com/ -if you want a correct COI, look there, or get the SPD, they sell them at PCA each year.
> Carole


So is this a disk or is it online ?


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

It's online, you just need to regiser to use it. Much faste loading than poodlepedigree.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Dogsinstyle said:


> It's online, you just need to regiser to use it. Much faste loading than poodlepedigree.


I just did and entered one of my dogs  Thanks for the info


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I don't think one person on this thread from the very beginning has said or implied that a low COI is the end all or be all. I think everyone agress that low COI, health testing and researching pedigrees is the ONLY way we can find out the best way to breed our dogs with the least health problems and besy longevity.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I don't think one person on this thread from the very beginning has said or implied that a low COI is the end all or be all. I think everyone agress that low COI, health testing and researching pedigrees is the ONLY way we can find out the best way to breed our dogs with the least health problems and besy longevity.


Wow fantastic I agree 100 % 
This is exactly what I do ! This is what I said in the very beginning of this thread HURRAY !!!!! Thanks so much !


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I don't think one person on this thread from the very beginning has said or implied that a low COI is the end all or be all. I think everyone agress that low COI, health testing and researching pedigrees is the ONLY way we can find out the best way to breed our dogs with the least health problems and besy longevity.


*The COI is not everything when looking for a puppy health is important too The dogs being bred could have a very low COI and yet have a pedigree loaded with health problems. so be sure when looking that the breeder has both Certifiable health testing such as CHIC or OFA results.. In reds you will find higher coi due to the fact that a color or type as you will is being established. So the coi will be higher in many instances This does not mean that the dogs are Unhealthy it just means that lots of linebreeding has carefully and thoughtfully been done to produce the "Type" Or The Color. Usuall y a breeder will go in (Linebreed or inbreed then go out or outcross) I know that it seems very confusing But a good breeder with knowlegde in any color can surely help you decide what is best for you 
*
This was my original post !


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes - the different interpretations and rewording was hard to follow.:doh:
The simpler the better for me. Thanks. Not a breeder, never will be I will save that for the pros AND hope the best decisions for this breed are taken.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Olie said:


> Yes - the different interpretations and rewording was hard to follow.:doh:
> The simpler the better for me. Thanks. Not a breeder, never will be I will save that for the pros AND hope the best decisions for this breed are taken.


I hope so too! I am just *so happy* to see that the breeders on this thread are all of the same mind set and they are all health testing a registering with *OFFA and CHIC* Plus breeding for a low COI.... That makes me sooo happy ....Thanks you for all of your kind words  Folks like you make me stay on this forum.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> *The COI is not everything when looking for a puppy health is important too The dogs being bred could have a very low COI and yet have a pedigree loaded with health problems. so be sure when looking that the breeder has both Certifiable health testing such as CHIC or OFA results.. In reds you will find higher coi due to the fact that a color or type as you will is being established. So the coi will be higher in many instances This does not mean that the dogs are Unhealthy it just means that lots of linebreeding has carefully and thoughtfully been done to produce the "Type" Or The Color. Usuall y a breeder will go in (Linebreed or inbreed then go out or outcross) I know that it seems very confusing But a good breeder with knowlegde in any color can surely help you decide what is best for you
> *
> This was my original post !


I am pretty sure nobody on this thread has focused on anything you in particular has said. We are all sharing and hopefully getting our points across to each other. And I am pretty sure we all agree, low COI, health testing and researching pedigrees are the way to produce healthy puppies, as long as we do all of this with our eyes wide open and being prepared that even if we think we are nuts about any given dog, if it isn`t right for our lines, it should not be used to expand our lines.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I am pretty sure nobody on this thread has focused on anything you in particular has said. We are all sharing and hopefully getting our points across to each other. And I am pretty sure we all agree, low COI, health testing and researching pedigrees are the way to produce healthy puppies, as long as we do all of this with our eyes wide open and being prepared that even if we think we are nuts about any given dog, if it isn`t right for our lines, it should not be used to expand our lines.


*hwell:**Did not say you or anyone else did Cherie ? I am confused what this post even means I was agreeing with the last post and reiterating what I had said ..That is all ....**Wow ! * *i would never consider myself to be that omnipotent.. I was just excited that everyone had agreed ...* Isnt that okay ?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

bigredpoodle said:


> *hwell:**Did not say you or anyone else did Cherie ? I am confused what this post even means I was agreeing with the last post and reiterating what I had said ..That is all ....**Wow ! * *i would never consider myself to be that omnipotent.. I was just excited that everyone had agreed ...* Isnt that okay ?


»It is MAHVELOUS!!!| How rare for all to agree!!


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