# Alpha Roll



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I REALLY don't like the alpha roll...

I was at a doggie birthday party and one of my sister's friends came strolling in late with her dog while all of our other dogs had formed their pack. The dogs were eating frosty paws so she gave her dog a frosty paw too. The other dogs finished first, and the birthday Dane came up to take a sniff of the new doggie's treat. The dog lashed out at the Dane and the owners slammed their dog to the ground in an alpha roll. They kept doing it. It really bugs me because forcing a dog to "submit" doesn't accomplish anything, IMO. All it did in that situation was make the dog more insecure. I especially don't like the idea of someone forcing a dog to "submit" to another dog. That just isn't right, even if the dog is aggressive. There are other ways to deal with the situation. Finally, and I don't know if this is true, but my trainer once told me that there is NOT much you can do about the way a dog interacts with other dogs (aside from early socialization). He said you can train a dog to interact with humans as you please, but each dog has its own instinct. A dog aggressive dog will always be, to some degree, dog aggressive. 

My mom has started doing the alpha roll with Henry when he doesn't listen to her and visitors come over. This REALLY upsets me because I don't agree with using that method. I will say, Henry listened to her after that but he was also sulking.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Alpha rolls are now widely seen as either useless or downright dangerous - see Alpha roll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for some of the background.

Personally, I too would be feeling very iffy about the class - what other outdated and unnecessarily forceful methods might be recommended? Perhaps it is time to look elsewhere - always worth trying for a refund, but I would rather lose money than my dog's trust in me.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

ChocolateMillie

The dogs were eating frosty paws so she gave her dog a frosty paw too. What is a frosty paw?

It really bugs me because forcing a dog to "submit" doesn't accomplish anything, IMO. Probably showing my age here but what does IMO mean?


I agree with others...the rolling on the dog on the back and waiting for dog to calm down...putting it in the submissive pose...in my eyes is antiquated.
That being said. There are a plethora of training methods out there and not everyone will agree what is good and what is not. (ie. some love the dog whisperer (Cesar Milan) and others say not to watch it.)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Not much sense in it. Either you make the dog terrified enough to bite you, or make the dog angry enough to bite you. Not a great learning tool, but a fantastic way to go if you WANT to get bitten.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

truelovepoodles said:


> ChocolateMillie
> 
> The dogs were eating frosty paws so she gave her dog a frosty paw too. What is a frosty paw?
> 
> It really bugs me because forcing a dog to "submit" doesn't accomplish anything, IMO. Probably showing my age here but what does IMO mean?


 A frosty paw is a frozen treat for dogs. "IMO" means "in my opinion".


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

There are MANY different training methods, some dogs can't take negative methods at all or their world shatters, some dogs may be too focused on something else to pay attention to positive methods. Methods are developed because they have worked before, but one method won't work for every dog. I'm sure the alpha roll has worked great for certain dogs, but I do not think that everyone should do it. You need to learn what's best for each individual dog and stick with that.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I would be very unhappy to be in a class where the trainer teaches people to use the alpha roll. When we had our first PWD, the alpha roll was how you dealt with pushy dogs. We used it and all it taught our dog was to have a life long fear of going on his back/ exposing his belly. After that experience I will never alpha roll any dog I own.

Perhaps some people can use it properly, but I don't think the general public knows how. And yes, according to up-to-date thinking, wolves do not actually alpha roll other wolves, it is actually an offered behaviour.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

If that ever happened in a training class I would have collected my dog, immediately left and never returned.


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

I would be concerned that the trainer isnt up on modern training methods. There are a lot of old school trainers out there that havent updated their procedures. While I dont think some of it is as bad as made out to be ( we all trained dogs that way in the past) I have never liked the alpha roll  Partially for the dog and also for the owner... it can be quite dangerous to do this with an aggressive dog. 
do you use choke chains in class ? Clickers? What other training methods are being used ?


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

When I had Pandora, my German Shepherd in dog training, it was something a trainer suggested I might use to help with our situation. She told me Pandora was dog-aggressive and needed very strong leadership. I later found out this was not the case. While she sounded aggressive on leash around other dogs she didn't have aggressive intentions..in fact as soon as she was allowed close to the dog she was barking at her demeanor changed completely. She just had to change her way of showing excitement.

Anyway, I did some research on it when the trainer talked to me about it. From what I can tell it's not used very often anymore..and when it is used it's in very specific circumstances where nothing else has worked on the dog. 

Leerburg also had an article on his website for overly aggressive dogs where he pretty much uses a slip collar and strangles the dog until they become unconscious during aggressive episodes. Again it's not for every dog, in fact it seems to be a last ditch effort sort of approach with dogs that are aggressive towards people.

Either way I don't think any of the extreme measures should be done by the average pet owner...I don't even think the average trainer should be using or suggesting them. I think the owners and pets should see a wide variety of both trainers and preferably a behaviorist to determine the best course of training for their dog.

For me I found a new trainer for Pandora. We ended up using an e-collar, another thing many people are against, but for her it worked and we no longer need it. I love the trainer I eventually found for her..it has made walking her around other dogs much more enjoyable..

Anyway it's turning into a rant but basically I am pretty sure an alpha roll wouldn't be needed in that case. There was a story a few years ago about a Petco trainer alpha-rolling an owners German Shepherd puppy and the dog ended up dying because of it. There is no reason for amateur and inexperienced people attempting that with their pets.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I need to video my trainer's classes and stick it up on Youtube. A few weeks ago, a dog who is sometimes dog-aggressive went for one of the others while we were working on heeling patterns (off lead), and she just immediately sang out "fingers in collars!" in the happiest tone imaginable, then went and worked one on one with the misbehaver for five minutes. No drama, no alpha rolls.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds perfect, JE!

I took my first Papillon to an old fashioned training class for a few sessions - it was so stressful, for the dogs and the owners, that we gradually moved further and further away from the others, until she looked at me, I looked at her, and we left and never went back. I knew one dog owner who continued to go - she did not drive and it was the only class she could walk to with her Cavalier. She used to get stomach cramps from stress on dog training days! I think the stress fallout for both dogs and owners - even those not directly involved - from the barked commands and forceful methods is often underestimated.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

That sounds horrid! I do wonder how trainers like that stay in business. We look forward to training night all week.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I agree with you puppylove. Ugh. The alpha roll. Those kind of "techniques" are old school and outdated. So are the trainers. I never see those kind of stunts working. But I have seen them make bad situations become much worse. 

The sad thing is that I don't think we would be seeing these techniques in this day and age if it weren't for a certain tv personal proclaiming to be a dog expert and people following this person like he/she was a prophet.


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

If you are talking about Cesar Milan he's actually done some incredible work with dogs. It's not Cesar that's a moron, it's the people who think they can do what he does just as well and use it on their own pets without consulting a trained animal behaviorist.

That's why they have that nice little disclaimer before each episode. My dogs have never needed such harsh training..but some of the dogs he deals with on a daily basis probably do need it. If it's his training methods vs. being euthanized for poor behavior..then I say let him do his training. 

I'm sure he knows more about animal behavior and training than I ever will so I respect him for that.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Tiptoeing here .... I have no desire to start a CM bunfight.

There is a wealth of opinion out there, both for and against his methods. I personally think HE HIMSELF has amazing handling skills. However, I think his methods tend to be harsh, are based on outdated knowledge about dog behaviour (with regard to current theory), and are flat out dangerous in the hands of someone without his skills. His television programs, regardless of warnings, lead to people trying to emulate him. 

I know he has lots of fans, and I know he often deals with dogs that may otherwise be euthanised for their problems, and give full credit for the rehab he does with those dogs. But I'm not convinced those dogs couldn't have been rehabbed with kinder, more scientific methods. 

Proponents of his methods often create a false dichotomy ... if he hadn't worked with the dog, the dog would have been euthanised. The actual choice should be between rehabbing the dog with one method versus another. Lots of canine behaviourists the world over successfully work with dogs with problems without resorting to some of the methods CM espouses.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

"Old school" or not "modern" does NOT mean its not effective or the wrong approach. I agree with the mention of these goofballs out there rolling a dog for something that takes minimal corection:afraid:

CM has rocketed his success on being a great trainer and the alpha roll (dated long before CM) should only be used in severe cases and IMO done by those with experience. I would change trainers too if human aggression is used against a dog for simple training.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> If you are talking about Cesar Milan he's actually done some incredible work with dogs. It's not Cesar that's a moron, it's the people who think they can do what he does just as well and use it on their own pets without consulting a trained animal behaviorist.


That's your opinion and while I respect that, I don't share it. That's all I'll say. Like the poster after you, I don't want to start a CM war. There's enough of them all over the internet!


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

There are other trainers that use some of Cesar's methods. So many of the methods are still used on dogs that are seen as dangerous to animals or even other people.

Leerburg has most of his success based on his free e-books and the DVDs he sells on his website. He promotes e-collar training and other methods that are seen as harsh. Would I use his methods? No, not ever. I would never own a dog that required such methods..and I would never let any of my pets get so out of hand to require that type of training. However, there are some dogs who need it.

Most of the people here are comparing these training methods for use on their poodles. A poodle is a lot easier to handle compared to a powerful dog pushing 200lbs or so. 

My only complaint about Cesar from his TV shows are that his "red zone" cases just don't seem so bad to me compared to other animal issues i've seen. I have cringed at a few situations on his TV show, but I also assume he knows more than I do in that field. I've read his books and did enjoy them and love his knowledge about animal behavior, but it doesn't mean I would ever use it on my own dogs. I respect what he has done for dogs that other trainers would never even touch. 

He's also pretty attractive too. I'd hit it.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

> Most of the people here are comparing these training methods for use on their poodles.


Personally, I was referring to all dogs, homeless dogs in particular that are in adoption programs and non-profit organizations. 

When it comes to Ginger, there's really no training required. All you have to do is ask and she usually complies. I swear she's a human in a fluffy suit!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

msminnamouse said:


> That's your opinion and while I respect that, I don't share it. That's all I'll say. Like the poster after you, I don't want to start a CM war. There's enough of them all over the internet!


Its fine and respected not to share the same feelings and although some disagree, people cannot deny the success he has had with some extremely serious situations. The amount of dogs he saved alone is incredible. I highly respect him - and the risks he has taken.

I just wish people would be more open minded and not dismiss someones positives because of the perceived negatives... Especially when it comes to training. Our training is all over the map and even though I cannot stand a couple whining sounded trainers out there, I still respect some great approaches that trainer has.

I can also laugh at the jokes people have profited off of too because of CM's personality and taking things to the extremes. I loved this one


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## Aidan (Mar 4, 2009)

I am just glad that dog training type shows are so popular. At the very least it gets people to understand that dogs do require training. I get so sick of being out in public and having to deal with unruly dogs that belong to careless owners.

I remember having to help some guy at the dog park catch his own border collie. His dog was very smart and knew when it was about time to go home and would dodge his owner. It took all of us over an hour to catch that dog! Teaching your dog to come to you isn't very difficult. 

So, regardless if it's Dog Whisperer or Victoria Stillwell's "It's me or the dog" i am just happy these people are out there showing people what dog training in general can accomplish.

It doesn't matter if the person signs up for petsmart training..at least it's something. No matter what training program a person uses for their pet if they put forth 100% effort they are most likely going to see results.

I feel comfortable saying a very very small percentage of dogs need harsh training like CM's approach to some dogs. Many of those dogs would never even need that kind of training if they had an owner who took the time to teach them how to sit or stay or socialized them better when younger.

So, that's why I like these trainers regardless of their methods.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

that video is hysterical!


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