# I need to vent.



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Sisko has been doing so well, but just a little bit ago I gave him a beef knuckle bones and when my mom came to check on him, he let out a nasty growl and my mom yelled NO! And made him go in his kennel. My mom has never tolerated growling from dogs.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm not mad, but I am frustrated.


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Sorry this happened.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Thank you, Click-N-Treat. This is also upsetting/frustrating because my mom wants to give him back to his breeder if it happens again. I suggested we see and work with a trainer to help with this, and will look for someone to help us.


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

People tend to freak out over a dog growling over a bone, but food aggression is a natural instinct for all animals, including humans. If you were eating a sandwich, and someone tried to take it from you, you'd say, "Hey! That's mine!" That's exactly what your dog did. Your dog had something worth keeping and said, "Hey, that's mine!" It's startling and scary when a dog growls, especially for the first time. Poodles are sensitive dogs. It's possible that being yelled at and kenneled left an impression. Don't do that again! 

However, you learned something about your dog. Knuckle bones are too high value for your dog to have unsupervised. I've never given my dogs a bone like that. If my dogs are going to chew on a meat bone, I'll hold onto it and let them lick and nibble. But, they wouldn't actually get to run off with it. That's going to provoke a fight and ratchet their, "Hey, that's mine!" far too high. 

Treats have a value scale that ranges from meh to worth fighting for. You discovered, the hard way, that meat bones are worth fighting for. So here's a simple rule for you. Those don't come in the house anymore. Pigs ears are banned from our house for the exact same reason. The treat value is far too high. The dogs will fight to keep them. Nope, not coming in the house.

Noelle, at about eight months or so, went through a period where she guarded her food and toys. She suddenly became aware that she had stuff worth keeping. The first thing I did was changed how she got her treats. I didn't leave her alone with her goodies. I also made her earn them as rewards. But, I clearly was in charge of them. I also traded up.

I think finding a trainer to help you is an excellent idea. One thing bad trainers will tell you to do is to take away things from your dog and give them back. This is terrible advice and can sometimes make the problem worse. Would you feel less aggressive if a stranger took your piece of pizza, gave it back, took it again, and then gave it back? Or would that make you angry? If that would make you angry--and you have the rational thought processes of a human being--how do you think your dog would feel? A human can conceptualize an end point. A dog cannot. The dog would have no idea the treat would be given back eventually. The way to help food aggression isn't through subtraction. It's by addition.

A good trainer will teach you to trade up in value. Dog is chewing on a Nylabone, trade up with a rawhide chew. Wait for the dog to chew the rawhide, quietly take away the Nylabone. If the dog is chewing a rawhide chew, offer a bully stick. Offer something better than what the dog already has, and give them space to change their mind. A good trainer will show you how to do this in such a way that the dog is happily switching and not guarding.

Think of treats as dog money. We guard our money. But, if someone offered to trade your one dollar bill for a five, you'd switch happily. If they offered a ten for your five, you'd switch again. And you'd feel happy about the switch. We do this with our dogs when we trade up with treats. You like that thing you have? Check out this amazing thing I've got for you. Wow! However, that means making sure you can trade up. If the dog already has a knuckle bone, you're screwed. There isn't an up from there. That's why pigs ears and knuckle bones don't enter my house. 

Avoid super high value treats right now. Meet with a trainer. If they tell you to take things away, give them back... run away and choose a different trainer. You want to learn how to trade up and how to time it to help the dog learn. And remember, food aggression is natural. You've felt it. I've felt it. We didn't label it, food aggression, but that's exactly what it is when you want that last slice of cake and someone else snatches it. Or if a waiter tries to take your plate before you're done eating. That rise in emotion is food aggression. 

Don't panic and do something rash. This is a fixable problem. Find a good trainer. If you need help finding one, send me a private message by clicking Click-N-Treat under my picture. You're not alone in this. You also have the PF community to help you, too.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Yeah, Sisko has done this before with a Himalayan yak cheese chew and the PF community gave me some advice, so I know to handle it differentely. My mom has a very hard time with dogs growling at her. I'm already scared that this has made a bad impression and could escalate and I could see Sisko bitting and my mom hitting him, she wouldn't mean to, she's been through a lot, but I don't think I could forgive her if something happened to him. 

Okay, thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I started doing the same thing with his HYCC and he got to the point where I could just hold it and take it from away from him, and now knuckle bones are banned.

Oh, no! So she was like ''MIME?'' I'm glad you worked with her and were still in charged.

Okay, thank you, I'll run if anyone gives me that advice! I wouldn't be any less aggressive if that happened to me, and I'd probably take my pizza and walk away. So, Sisko had to feel like that knuckle bone was the best thing that he ever chewed on. Okay

That's so true! I like the way you put it.

Okay, so would it be alright to ask them how they would solve it/do they take it away then give it back? Yeah.

Okay, thank you, so much Click-N-Treats. I really appreciate it!


----------



## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Click already gave you good advise so I have nothing to add, lol. It sounds to me that you are doing very well with Sisko. I had a GSD at one time, who I trained with the help of a GSD club. He was excellent at obedience however it did take us about 3 or 4 classes as I remember. He was very smart and got bored easily. One morning I had him locked up on our back porch off our kitchen, we were renovating this porch to add it on to the kitchen space, well he chewed up some studs. I said to him what did you do and he came at me growling to bite, I don't treat my dogs this way however I had a natural reaction and basically shoved my fist into his mouth and he backed off. (*Note I had been bitten my a prior GSD where I ended up with several stitches in my arm as he treated it like a rag doll).) Probably why I had such a reaction to him...in any case he never ever tried to bite or growl again. He was my best trained dog I ever had but he also was before kids etc. Life gets busy and at times in the way. Renn hasn't growled but I've never rally given him high value treats unless I am holding them. I'm a bit of a control freak at times.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Everything Click said, plus don't allow Sisko to have such high value treats unless you are with him to supervise. Train him to give the special goodies to you in exchange for something even better. e.g. Here is a piece of fresh chicken in exchange for that yak cheese. Also remember to randomize and fade the swap reward, including sometimes giving the treasured treat right back to him.

As to finding a good private trainer I suggest finding one through either the CCPDT (Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers) or APDT (Association of Professional Dog Trainers). Their websites are below.






Certification for professional dog trainers and behavior consultants


The Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers is the only independent certifying organization for the dog training profession. Learn about certification, further education, and more.




www.ccpdt.org










The Association of Professional Dog Trainers | APDT


We believe in the value of dog training and behavior consulting to society. Because in our minds, to love a dog is to love the dog’s trainer. Visit APDT.




apdt.com


----------



## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Karen Pryor Academy is another resource for finding trainers. KPA CTP Certified Training Partners Online Directory Of Dog Trainers


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

It sounds like your mom handled it just fine. You growl at me, I bark at you AND fire you back in your cage. Negative reinforcement... but pretty mild and might help to make the 'no growling allowed' point.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

But Frank I don't think it is wise to extinguish growling. If one trains away growling and the dog is upset about something (which was understandable in this situation IMO) then the only recourse left to the dog is to bite. A growl is the warning that "I am really stressed out right now and if you insist on making things worse, I will bite you." Frankly I think mom needs some lessons.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I can't remember if you already read it yourself, but can you get your mom to read the book "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson? 
Working with a trainer would probably be helpful to you and Sisko for more than just resource guarding, but if your mom is not on the same page as you, you may still have issues. Hopefully if she reads the book she can understand that while resource guarding is not ok, there are better ways to handle it.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I can't add anything better than what's been said, but I can commiserate. It can be hard to get your whole household on the same page. It's actually very stressful sometimes.

Hugs.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

lily cd re said:


> But Frank I don't think it is wise to extinguish growling. If one trains away growling and the dog is upset about something (which was understandable in this situation IMO) then the only recourse left to the dog is to bite. A growl is the warning that "I am really stressed out right now and if you insist on making things worse, I will bite you." Frankly I think mom needs some lessons.


Ahhhh.... maybe I'm more sympathetic to moms. lol

Dog on dog growls??? I ignore them... the dogs will sort it out.

I had a few spells of that when the Shi Tzus started coming downstairs. 

But no, not at humans. That's not allowed...

Tonka growls at Raccoons.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think we may have to disagree on that last point...Of course the humans need to understand what the dog is saying and have an idea on how to de-escalate the situation.


----------



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I'd like to turn it into a good learning oppourtunity on both sides.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Agreed, so here is the basis of my thinking. I want a dog to tell me if it is stressed, worried or fearful and have the opportunity to then learn what is upsetting them and then be able to take meaningful steps to correct the situation and give the dog a way to feel more confident and for them to understand what is happening. Hopefully then they develop better coping skills and the feeling that growling is appropriate can be conditioned away. I also don't want to make the dog believe that a bite is a first response, but rather a last resort.

You are up!


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Thank you, everyone! I can not even express fully how much I appreciate this and you guys! I'm making some phone calls right now with some trainers from the links you guys posted. I have to say this is so frustrating because I had plans when Sisko was still a Landshark, and I tried to get everyone on board and they just didn't want to and left me to take care of him, and I got ill and we got majorly derailed. Only me and my youngest brother really like Sisko. Everyone else just tolerates him, but my mom has been trying to get closer to him lately.


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

When you get set with a trainer invite your mom to participate so that she can make a bond with Sisko that includes his understanding that she has to be listened to and I am sure things will get better. For that matter include others who don't seem to have good relations with him. They don't have to walk or feed him, but at least they shouldn't be at odds with each other.


----------



## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

I’m so sorry your family is at odds with Sisko, that must make it very hard for you. Click and Lily gave you great advice, and I agree that while not desirable, growling over a bone is within the range of normal dog behavior.

I will say the trading up works like a charm. My Lily was deemed unadoptable by the shelter because of her food aggression. This was not just an occasional growl over a high value treat but an all out tirade whenever dog or human approached her when eating. I was amazed at how well the training worked. A good part of what we did was trading up treats, as described. I also would give her back the original treat after she willingly gave it up in the “trade up.” Within a few months, she was eating side by side with Max and willingly giving up any treat. Never bit me, or anyone else. And the training stuck. I can take a raw marrow bone out of her mouth and she will give it willingly, it’s now nine years later.

Poodles learn quick, people sometimes not so much! Good luck with your family and come here for moral support.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Parents are hard. Everyone else's ideas are great - but is it possible to get your mom to feed Sisko occasionally? Give him really great food, like a bit of table scraps on his kibble? It would be good for both of them to associate positive experiences with each other  My mom worked really hard not to bond with my dog (citing that she didn't want to mess up my bonding since we weren't living with her long term), but things really improved in their relationship when I convinced her to try practicing clicker training with Annie (just one session of "hey, isn't this cool! You try!"), and also when Mom started feeding her.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Mufar42 said:


> Click already gave you good advise so I have nothing to add, lol. It sounds to me that you are doing very well with Sisko. I had a GSD at one time, who I trained with the help of a GSD club. He was excellent at obedience however it did take us about 3 or 4 classes as I remember. He was very smart and got bored easily. One morning I had him locked up on our back porch off our kitchen, we were renovating this porch to add it on to the kitchen space, well he chewed up some studs. I said to him what did you do and he came at me growling to bite, I don't treat my dogs this way however I had a natural reaction and basically shoved my fist into his mouth and he backed off. (*Note I had been bitten my a prior GSD where I ended up with several stitches in my arm as he treated it like a rag doll).) Probably why I had such a reaction to him...in any case he never ever tried to bite or growl again. He was my best trained dog I ever had but he also was before kids etc. Life gets busy and at times in the way. Renn hasn't growled but I've never rally given him high value treats unless I am holding them. I'm a bit of a control freak at times.


Thank you?. Wow, that's awesome! I didn't know dog breed clubs would do training too. Oh, no! I'm sorry that you got bit before and needed stitches. I probably would have reacted the same way. I'm glad Renn hasn't growl at you. I find that it's better to be a control freak with Sisko. Maybe I can lessen it when he's better trained.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

lily cd re said:


> Everything Click said, plus don't allow Sisko to have such high value treats unless you are with him to supervise. Train him to give the special goodies to you in exchange for something even better. e.g. Here is a piece of fresh chicken in exchange for that yak cheese. Also remember to randomize and fade the swap reward, including sometimes giving the treasured treat right back to him.
> 
> As to finding a good private trainer I suggest finding one through either the CCPDT (Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers) or APDT (Association of Professional Dog Trainers). Their websites are below.
> 
> ...


Okay, thank you! I was calling and emailing places yesterday, but I'm still looking around on the links you posted?


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Karen Pryor Academy is another resource for finding trainers. KPA CTP Certified Training Partners Online Directory Of Dog Trainers


Thank you, Click! I was calling and emailing places yesterday and I'll be looking into more today.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Starvt said:


> I can't remember if you already read it yourself, but can you get your mom to read the book "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson?
> Working with a trainer would probably be helpful to you and Sisko for more than just resource guarding, but if your mom is not on the same page as you, you may still have issues. Hopefully if she reads the book she can understand that while resource guarding is not ok, there are better ways to handle it.


No, but now I'll have to get that one. Yeah, I think that's where we could have some issues at. My mom has had 3 dogs, 2 before I was born and 1 when I was a little kid, but she hasn't really looked up any new ways of training them and doesn't seem interested in doing so.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I can't add anything better than what's been said, but I can commiserate. It can be hard to get your whole household on the same page. It's actually very stressful sometimes.
> 
> Hugs.


Oh, yeah, it is!

Thank you!


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Carolinek said:


> I’m so sorry your family is at odds with Sisko, that must make it very hard for you. Click and Lily gave you great advice, and I agree that while not desirable, growling over a bone is within the range of normal dog behavior.
> 
> I will say the trading up works like a charm. My Lily was deemed unadoptable by the shelter because of her food aggression. This was not just an occasional growl over a high value treat but an all out tirade whenever dog or human approached her when eating. I was amazed at how well the training worked. A good part of what we did was trading up treats, as described. I also would give her back the original treat after she willingly gave it up in the “trade up.” Within a few months, she was eating side by side with Max and willingly giving up any treat. Never bit me, or anyone else. And the training stuck. I can take a raw marrow bone out of her mouth and she will give it willingly, it’s now nine years later.
> 
> Poodles learn quick, people sometimes not so much! Good luck with your family and come here for moral support.


Thank you! Yeah, it can be very hard! I ? agree with you with the growling. I do find it odd though that Sisko has just started this recently. He never did it when he was younger.

Oh, no! I'm so happy that you kept and worked and trained with Lily. I noticed a lot of shelters will not go the extra mile when training dog, and will deem them unadoptable and or put them down, that really upsets me a great deal because they haven't tried everything.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Parents are hard. Everyone else's ideas are great - but is it possible to get your mom to feed Sisko occasionally? Give him really great food, like a bit of table scraps on his kibble? It would be good for both of them to associate positive experiences with each other  My mom worked really hard not to bond with my dog (citing that she didn't want to mess up my bonding since we weren't living with her long term), but things really improved in their relationship when I convinced her to try practicing clicker training with Annie (just one session of "hey, isn't this cool! You try!"), and also when Mom started feeding her.


I think so? she's given him bacon sometimes?. Oh, no?! Wow, that's awesome! I'm so glad that their relationship got better?.


----------



## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I have never had this problem. I started from day one having my Spoo as a pup. Yes, day one. I held the chicken leg. He got to chew on it for a moment. Then I took it back. He had to back up, sit, and then lay down. Then he got to chew on it a couple of more minutes with me holding it.

I then used the command "Give it to Mommy". This went on for a few days. Then in order for him to get it back he had to actually release it into my hand.

After a few weeks he would put anything into my hands, no matter how much he wanted it, because he knew I would give it back.

Never start out just letting them have it for as long as they want!

My Spoo is now 10 and will bring me anything. And be willing to give it up, not even having to have it back.
Any dog can be trained to do this, if you start at the beginning.


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

kontiki said:


> I have never had this problem. I started from day one having my Spoo as a pup. Yes, day one. I held the chicken leg. He got to chew on it for a moment. Then I took it back. He had to back up, sit, and then lay down. Then he got to chew on it a couple of more minutes with me holding it.
> 
> I then used the command "Give it to Mommy". This went on for a few days. Then in order for him to get it back he had to actually release it into my hand.
> 
> ...


That's awesome ?. Okay, thank you!


----------



## townferret (Nov 11, 2019)

I'm confused. What kind of growl is it? Is it a low deep teeth baring growl, or is it a "this is mine and you can't have it" growl? 
Is there any reason that the growl is aggression? If you say "drop it" will he drop it?
Have you trained your dog in soft mouth when he was a landshark? Is he a biter?

Retrievers generally can learn soft mouth by play, when they still have baby teeth it is usually impossible but once they get a bit older
they will, if you play with them, develop a soft mouth and totally understand that biting is not an option.
They cannot retrieve fowl from the water with a hard mouth, they would damage the prey and it wouldn't be food,
so soft mouth is well bred into them, and it isn't hard to curate it in your pet.

The other thing is that growling is just another form of communication and if you don't want him to growl about a bone, you should be holding the bone
while he is enjoying it and taking it away if he growls.

Noodle growls all the time, her growl is definitely an invitation to play and she sounds like chewbacca (the wookie) so it's incredibly weird and funny.
She loves to growl and it is never aggressive, but it sounds ferocious and someone who thought all growling was aggression would deprive her of this form of communication. 
(her breeder's 6 year old son whispered to me, "she bites", and when I went to pick her up at 8 weeks she was growling at her poor sire who didn't know how to manage it- she also huffs and cries so soft you can barely hear it and "balloos" standing on her hind legs when she thinks something is going on outside the fence. She is fiesty and sounds ferocious at times but it isn't behavior- it's vocalization,)
She has a truly soft mouth and would never bite but since she has been eating raw bones all her life
I had to hold them for her when she was young and teach her to not bite my fingers in the process.

Remember that the trainer is more for you than your dog. Your dog knows how to be a dog, so it is really important that you involve your Mom in the training,
as others have mentioned. The alligator mouth phase is perfectly normal in baby poodles and it isn't something that can be trained out, however I had two of them
landsharking each other for months and they never once even raised a welt or a scratch on the other- we humans however had to fake cry until they were tilting their 
heads from side to side trying to figure us out, we sounded like weirdos but they got the message.)

A dog growling for a bone is not necessarily food aggression. 
It could be "lets have a tooth wrastle for this bone." It could be "I'm afraid you are going to take my bone and I'm really having a good time with it,"
If it is dog on dog, they know what they are saying to eachother and unless there is teeth baring, hackle raising- human intervention can create
aggression.

Poodle puppies take a little bit more tolerance than other less intelligent and sensitive dogs. Yelling at a poodle is never going to bring the result one desires.

I do not do treats because I home cook and chicken hearts or livers (10% diet is organs) are more desirable to them.

It really isn't safe to give any dog a cooked bone or a rawhide at all. 

Dogs can eat raw meaty bones, chicken backs, turkey necks, wings, lambs necks, any non weight bearing bone because it contains valuable nutrition and it keeps their teeth very clean.
Unfortunately, because of commercial dog food dogs tend to "chow down" rather than eat in a way that is natural for them.
Their molars are made to crush bone and their esophagus expands to swallow bone, bones are quite necessary to their design, 
but cooked bones are dangerous, even commercially cooked bones. (you can research it online or speak to your vet,)
and I'm pretty sure, time will tell, that nylabones are not a healthy choice (though I do have a few in the toy boxes and have not experienced an issue from them in over 30 years.)

It is always easier to remove the possibility of food aggression by having your hands on their food and having their food smell like you. 
When my dogs are pups I sit next to them while they eat. I touch them, I mess with their food, I distract them.
I will also feed them one piece of meat at a time, asking them to sit, give me a paw, turn, jump. I do not do this forever but when you have multiple dogs
that is how dogs culture is. The leader eats first and then allows the others to eat after he and she have taken what they want and left their scent on it.

If you glove up and sit outside and introduce Sisko to a turkey neck or a chicken back from your hand, (organic or purdue, avoid anti-biotics in meat if possible,) 
you will have the opportunity to work on his soft mouth, you will also cut back on the expense of veterinary dental procedures, and the expense of a trainer
because he will know that humans are in charge of sharing the bone and he has to watch out for your fingers.

He may enjoy chewing on raw carrots as well if the raw stuff creeps you out, follow the same procedure, he gets what you allow.

Hope some of this helps, take what you like and ignore the rest  sorry so long and keep in mind, this isn't necessarily a behavior problem and 
your vet or your groomer may be a great resource to help your Mom understand what is going on.

Here's a link in case you have interest in introducing raw meaty bones to your dogs diet:








Bone Content in Raw Meaty Bones, Raw Feeding, Raw Diet Ingredients


Raw meaty bones (RMB) contain edible bone, muscle meat, fats, & connective tissue, & each RMB will vary in the edible bone content available.




perfectlyrawsome.com






Best of Luck!


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

townferret said:


> I'm confused. What kind of growl is it? Is it a low deep teeth baring growl, or is it a "this is mine and you can't have it" growl?
> Is there any reason that the growl is aggression? If you say "drop it" will he drop it?
> Have you trained your dog in soft mouth when he was a landshark? Is he a biter?
> 
> ...


It's a "mine, you can't have this. STAY BACK" growl. I've never tried asking for a "drop it" but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't. I tried doing the yelping and saying ouch but it's really just until now that he's more careful with hands. I'm not sure if he could ever be a gun dog. 

Noodle sounds adorable??!

I'll probably get some gloves and do that. This is so odd though, because, I used to give Sisko small marrow bones when he was younger and he wouldn't growl or anything.

Thank you for the link and the story! Thank you for wishing us luck too!


----------



## Fenris-wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

I'm pretty sure I found a good trainer, but we've been playing phone tag. Hopefully we can get in touch tomorrow


----------

