# The WRONG DOG FOR YOU ! POODLE from hell Needs Training



## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

Two years ago March 2, 2016 my 13 year old angel a Bichon passed away due to cancer. Two days later my dear wife of many years passed away in 12 hours due to the Flesh Eating disease. Leaving me, a cancer survivor senior to look after my adult son with epilepsy and cognitive issues. Nicky the Bichon was a huge help warning us about my son's seizures.

As dog lovers we needed a wonderful dog and fast.
A friend of mine who is a well known psychic and animal communicator and Reiki Master told me she sees a new dog in our lives but "He will be the wrong dog for you. He will be impossible to train."
One year after her warning we searched far and wide for a well known reputable poodle breeder with full medical papers to back up the puppies. We purchased a chocolate brown 8 week old male. The mother being a service dog and the father a best in show champion. 

Having had other dogs we knew what to do and what to expect. The psychic's words started to wake up in my mind after this puppy seemed to go well beyond what we had experienced with past puppies. He was hyperactive all the time. He was fixated on tearing up everything in sight, including clothing on the person. Armed with books and videos on dog training we set to work using liver treats as rewards. He learned quickly all the basics. The vet said he was very high spirited and she recommended the behaviour expert in the clinic, who 4 times promised to call us but never did.
Two other highly recommended trainers didn't pan out for us.

Charlie, is now 10 months old and we are now in the process of retraining him from scratch as he very disruptive and hyperactive all the time except during the night. The following is a letter I sent to the breeder for advice. I hope to hear the thoughts and suggestions from all the experienced people on this forum. Your HELP is needed . Sorry for the length.

Letter to Breeder;

With all your experience I'd like to run a few things past you and hear your thoughts and Ideas.
Compared to our other dogs and those of our extended family, dogs we got to know, Charlie is a real handful and very hyper. A trainer and ex cop who has 20 years experience training all kinds of dogs even suggested 
re-homing Charlie to a rural home as he is far too active and needs fields to run. When this guy didn't return my calls I fired him.
I called a second trainer with lots of experience and designations and to my stunned surprise she too suggested that I might consider re-homing Charlie to someone who has other dogs in the house and has a huge yard or a farm. She offered to take Charlie to her home for one month at a cost of $2200 plus further training here at home at a cost of $360 per 4 - 1 hr sessions which can require several sessions. In other words about $3,640.
Needless to say I didn't buy it. Currently I'm working with an animal communicator and Reiki master. But see no difference after several sessions.

I'm trying to stretch Charlie's neutering as close to 12 months as possible so hormones can circulate longer.
Charlie doesn't like to be told no. If I or my son tell him no re something he may start to stare at you, start jumping and then he gets aggressive with ready to pounce stance, teeth, and deep growls and the odd bark. He rarely barks if at all. We look away and avoid eye contact. Shouldn't have to do that with your supposed to be therapy dog. We are clear and firm with him and praise him lavishly when he does well. Rarely do we raise our voice at him.
However, he accepts his lower position one moment but not the next.

Charlie spends a lot of time walking on 2 legs , checking out every table top for items in reach. He uses his tongue to reach things and off he goes to chew and swallow. We have to be on guard 24/7. Shoes, papers, remote controls, phones, tablecloths, pillows, carpets (all gone) towels, toilet paper, kleenex, mail, leather sofas, curtains (as he can jump several feet) furniture, baseboards, etc are all in danger. In his short time here he has caused this 3,200 sq ft Homes and Garden magazine decorated home 15 years of wear. 
Time out in his crate has not helped at all. 

He is extremely difficult to walk, bolting to the left, to the right, to the back, picking up cigarette butts, plastic tops, twigs, every blowing leaf, papers, and junk, sits down and has them for lunch. Naturally when walking him I have to beware of what is 10 feet ahead if I can manage the seconds to look. Often I have to battle with him on the street searching in his mouth for garbage he is prepared to swallow. One person asked, what was I doing to the dog, thinking abuse. Ever try desperately getting some dangerous item out of your uncooperative dog's mouth? It isn't easy to do or watch.
He pulls so much that he is walking on his hind legs 50% of the time.
Stopping on the spot for him to calm down doesn't work. He sits and upon going again he is back on 2 feet. Changing walking direction is also useless. Bolting R and then L has my arms and shoulders stretched to the max and yes, even almost dislocated.

In the backyard I have had to put 4' of chicken wire around my large evergreen trees as he loves chewing on the lower branches and twigs, needles, and fallen cones which some can be about the size of a large olive. He will eat them as I have had to pull them out from the back of his mouth. In the yard he has has chewed up all the Hydrangea canes I had trimmed back to 4". These are toxic as are many other plants I have in the yard. Yet to allow him to run loose with me watching I have to let him go. He ignores all commands even though as a young puppy he was very good at. When he is free he is wild. He will run around the 60'X40' yard at breakneck speeds looking more like a greyhound than a poodle. He is breathtaking in flight.
I question whether a muzzle would be the answer. 

Whether in or out he will jump up at one's arms and hands with teeth bared. Often ripping clothes.
He knows the sit, stay, come, leave it commands but he chooses when to follow them. With a treat in hand it used to be all the time. Now, he at 10 months, (as a teenager??) he seems to be incharge. Treats don't work so well. Petsmart where he has been 3X for grooming, they find him to be too active and difficult to work with.

I'm changing his food , Royal Canin, from puppy to adult. I have introduced it slowly over weeks. Now he has decided that he will sort out the adult food. To top it off he is only eating much smaller quantities of his puppy
kibbles. He is always begging at the table and while outside he is eating old leaves and soil. If I give him his food in the AM and he will not eat it he will vomit bile by the mouthful. I prepared hamburger lightly oven cooked to start his morning. This worked for a few days and now I try to hand feed him just to get him started so as not to see him vomit bile.

Before the winter he was doing his business outside with pee pads if he needed during the night with an open crate. Today with a closed crate he will pee outside in the am then ask to be let out during the day several times, only to pee once after a long time out there. Quite often he will not pee unless there is snow out there. And he will pee inside. The pee pads were a big mistake. When I attempt to walk him he will mark territory but not empty his bladder. So when he comes in he wants to go back out again.
For his stool he will get into position but when the stool is ready to come out he bends forward raises his left leg and struggles to pass it. At times he tumbles over ! How does one correct thi?

Charlie is pickpocket. He will go for your pockets, take what is in there and run to hide and chew it up. He has even taken my MasterCard. He has managed to chew his collar and to have one of the collars stuck in his mouth unable to get it back out past his front canines leaving his mouth stuck fully opened. The collar is tight enough that only 2 finger can get under it. He even chewed up his rabies tag. Lucky I saw him chewing a red circle of hard glass like plastic and I was able to pull it out from the back of his throat. That was lucky!!A heavy duty harness of $50 was chewed up in no time. 

We had some good fetch sessions using tennis balls but now he chooses to quickly destroy them and eat them. The sour apple and even hot pepper have little effect on him. He won't eat his kibbles but the bulk kibble I buy for the feral cat colony I feed is a delicacy for him. 

Needless to say, Charlie needs watching every second. 
The Breeder recommends retraining from scratch using tethering as the mainstay. Tethered to me or to furniture. 

This poodle, Charlie, is a beautiful mini poodle but he has taken us to our limits. Unless we get somewhere fast, I hate to say it as I dearly love all animals, this guy will be gone. Our health has taken a beating !

We look forward to hearing from all the wonderful people on the Poodle Forum. Thank you for your interest and patience.


Sam


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## rkj__ (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm sorry to hear you are having a tough time with your rebellious young dog. 


Personally, since you've come this far, I would definitely have him neutered sooner rather than later. I'm no expert though, so take my words with a grain of salt perhaps.

There is no magic fix for all the challenges you are facing though. It will take time, and a lot of patience. 

Sent from my SM-G903W using Tapatalk


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I assume the vet finds nothing wrong with him. What I am going to say next will not be appreciated. I would have to come down hard on him, so he know who is in control and who is the master of the house. this may sound mean, but there is nothing worse than a dog you cannot trust, and is hard headed. By 10 months he should listen, realizing he is a teenage. In this case I would rehome him.

I have a friend her toy male poodle has bitten her, she afraid to groom him. Growls at people. He is 8 years old and just gets worse, and she had had many dog in fact 3 toys right now. She never controlled him because he was so cute, he would sit on his hind legs and move his front paws up and down, she said he was so cute, she could not scold him.

I only ever had one, a silky terrier 5 pounds, had hin for 2 years, and got up one day and said to my friend, we either find him a home or he goes down. Found him a home, he tangled with a german shepard, a racoon, all day outside would come in at night. But they loved him. They spent 8000 on getting him put back together. Needless to say I Will never own anything with terrier in it. I really think he was mental.

I adore my dogs, but they have to listen, and not destroy the house. If I had to come down on them hard I used a flyswatter, now when I tell them to settle down, I just say flyswatter. I probley cracked their buts 2 times, did not really hurt them but scared them. Some will say this is to rough away to train, but they all love me and act like I expect them to.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Holy cow, I'm so sorry for everything you've endured in the past two years with losing your wife, beloved dog, and now having this added stress. 

I don't believe in psychics or reiki masters or training camps where you send the dog away (total crock). I think mini poodles are the most high energy of all the poodles and you got one that is _extremely_ hyper and high drive. I wouldn't blame you for one second if you rehomed him to a more suitable home with someone interested in training or performance, perhaps. 

If you want to work with him, I would get him neutered immediately. I would take him to training classes, walk him or hire a dog walker to walk him every day for an hour, train him several times throughout the day, get him some good chews (bully sticks, cow ears, "no hide" bones, etc.), and give him rest periods during the day in his crate. Be firm with your words, follow through with commands, but never hit him or scare him in any way. 

Ten months is right in the middle of THE MOST challenging phase of rearing a puppy. If you can stick it out for another year or so, you could see some calming down. If you'd rather have a dog who doesn't push all the boundaries and you can enjoy now, I would rehome this guy and try again, this time with a breeder who can make a better match (temperament testing is very helpful for this). 

Good luck!


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Oh my, what a story you have ! First of all, I have true sympathy for you with all that’s happened in your life, and the current hardships.

The first thing that comes to mind when I read your story is whoever temperament tested your dog and decided it would make a great service dog sure didn’t seem to know what they were doing !

On the other hand, your dog is 10 months old and yes, teenage time is the worst. I have a really active toy, and she is 10 months old also. She has some miniature in her background, but she has the size of a toy. Right now she’s at her worse : she’s eaten 4 ipad charging cords, 2 within 24 hours. She can’t be trusted so I make sure I don’t give her any opportunity to get into mischief.

She gets bored easily. To occupy her, I give her treat dispenser filled with foods, once a day at lunch time. Like ypur dog, she won’t eat in her bowl unless starving but she will est from the many different treat dispensers I give her (I put her kibble in it). I also hide kibble in a rolled up towel, it’s even more difficult.

Mind games are more tiring than physical activity. You should find ways to have her do some. Catherine (Lili’s mom) can give you great advice with that.

I agree you need to start over with your pup. The fact that she pees in the house shows that she was given freedom too early. My dog was also difficult to housetrain due to an immature bladder. You can read her story in here, check my threads about Beckie. She still needs to go outside more than most dogs, but will not soil if I do a good job of letting her out. She has the occasional accident, maybe once every 2-3 weeks.

It would be nice if you put up a video of your dog so we might get an idea of how active she is.

And last, I believe dogs are here to teach us and make our lives more complete. If your dog makes you miserable, then clearly you won’t be a good owner and the dog too will be unhappy. This dog is so active, it would do well in a working environement. If you decide to find him a new home, just make sure it’s with the right people. Dogs like yours need a very specific environment.

Good luck !


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I would check into "nothing in life is free" dog training. You control all the resources, and he gets nothing unless he works for it. There are books and lots of online info about this, but basically he has to do what you want or he gets nothing. Susanne Clothier calls it puppy politeness poker, and has a book called "Attentive Cooperation."

For walks I would put him in a harness where the leash connects in front of the chest. In addition to being unpleasant for you, all the lunging is dangerous for Charlie and will do damage to his neck.

Best of luck to you!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

While I am extremely sceptical about psychics etc, I tend to agree that this is the wrong dog for you and for your family. Perhaps there was an element of self fulfilling prophecy, perhaps after an angelic older dog, who had shared so much with you, any puppy was going to be a challenge, perhaps it is simply a case of a bad match, but I really think you should consider rehoming. There is no shame in deciding another home may suit the dog better, and another dog may suit your home better - I suspect your young tearaway may do very well in a group of dogs who will set boundaries for him and enforce them in a way that is simply not possible for a human. Any extreme "firmness" risks pushing him into the sort of behaviour that may make him impossible to rehome - once a dog becomes a known biter his future becomes very uncertain. What does his breeder say? Is she prepared to take him back and rehome him?


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Wow! I am exhausted just reading your post! I can't imagine what you have endured. It really sounds like this dog isn't a fit for you, never mind be a service dog. I have a mini, he is 10 months and neutered a month ago. He wasn't crazy to begin with, but neutering only made him marked less, he only does it outside so I dont care for it. His energy level, etc stayed the same. So in case you are thinking neutering might fix the issue, it won't fix all of it or any for that matter. 

I think you may need to ask the breeder if she could take him back or rehome him. But if you have the patience, start like its back to day 1. I would also see if you can work with a trainer one on one, I am skeptical of the reiki master.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

I agree that there's no shame in rehoming if it's the best thing for you and your dog. Sometimes it's just not a good match, and you may be able to find someone who's just better suited to this dog. Then you can either look for a breeder who temperament tests or look for an adult dog with a known personality who'll fit in better.

If you're afraid he'll chew through a front-clip harness, you can also try a Sporn harness. It clips in the back and generally stays far away from the neck/face. The way it works is that it has two loops that go under your dog's legs, and if he pulls, they tighten up. It makes it hard for the dog to stand on hind legs and makes it uncomfortable (but not painful) to try.

I'd also look into if there's a trainer in your area who offers walks/hikes as a service. There's a few people around here who will do "training walks" where they tire the dog out and try to work on bad habits for you at the same time. That might help.

What kind of mental work are you doing with him? I have a fairly high-energy mini mix (though nowhere near your guy, it sounds like!), and trick training/brain games are the best way to get him to calm down when he's being crazy. The most reliable one being the training game "101 Things to Do With a Box" which I learned about from Karen Pryor's page: https://clickertraining.com/101-things-to-do-with-a-box


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*Thank you for your kind responses*

Thanks to all of you who took the time to respond to my post.

Yes I know I said Charlie will be gone if he doesn't improve. But with my son with Epilepsy and cognitive issues along with OCD, this is easier said than done. It could dramatically increase his seizures and OCD activities.
I will have to get Charlie neutered ASAP, realizing that it is not the full answer but it is a start. I'm really surprised to find that most of you recommend rehoming him. And here I thought as does the breeder that the trainers were really jumping the gun on this. I guess not !

The breeder is not interested in taking him back as she seems to strongly suggest it's my fault. So far I have $4,200 invested in this puppy and that doesn't include neutering, the born with umbilical hernia to be fixed, and the services of a trainer and the animal communicator which can be at least another $3-4,000. 

The animal communicator is the one that foretold me 2 years ago that the dog I will get is not the right dog as he will be hard to train. She was spot on. She is a psychic, spirit communicator, Reiki Master and now getting certified for the TRUST TECHNIQUE with animals. Amazing video samples...https://trust-technique.com/.
The videos show amazing results with horses, dogs, lions and bears.

Yes I have tried back connecting and front connecting harnesses with little difference. Yes, Charlie has all the best nylon chew toys and Kongs and antlers. But no matter how many times I have traded chew toys for furniture legs, or leather couches he still does it his way. The liver treats do the job of diverting his attention and snapping him out of his state of mind , but for minutes. His food & treat dispensing toys keep him occupied for another 5 minutes at best. I agree, he needs work. But what work can I give him in a house in winter? Not to mention my health issues along with my son's that need looking after. 

Charlie has never marked inside as I think one of you understood.

Again, I thank you for your kindness.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Brain games will wear your dog out
For me brain games are trick training or scent training etc. basically wearing a poodle out mentally.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

First off I am sorry for all that you and your family have suffered in the past couple of years.

Next, you need the help of science and evidence based insights, techniques and training, not reiki, animal communicators or any other pseudo scientific or anti-scientific notions. I have not read all of the posts other than the original one and your most recent reply, but I did scan the replies as I scrolled down to decide what to say here. I agree with fjm that this may have been a self fulfilling scenario since you seem to have bought into the idea in advance that this was the wrong dog for you. I also agree with those who have suggested that there is no shame in rehoming a dog that really isn't the right fit for your situation. It in fact takes a fair amount of courage to do so.

As to this dog and his behaviors..... Some of it sounds like perfectly normal puppy/adolescent poodle antics. My spoo girl at nine years old is still a pick pocket for instance. Also there is a huge range of core temperaments in any breed. I would characterize both of my poodles at being very high drive, but my girl more than my boy. Many people who meet him look at him as a huge handful, but I tell them he is laconic compared to my girl. That said both of my dogs for me are easy keepers because both of them are in constant training mode. Mostly I make them think. They don't run miles a day or play fetch for hours at a time.

The other side of all this is for you to be honest with your circumstances (you have been very candid with us, but it is much harder to be honestly self evaluative). Is this the right time for a dog? Is this the right dog? What kinds of changes can you follow through with to make things better if you choose to keep the dog? 

If you opt to keep this dog I would suggest neutering him sooner than later. I would also mentally decide that this is a new dog that needs to be trained from scratch. You need to let go of all of the prejudices and resentments you have about this dog and pretend he is somebody new. Like I would even give him a new name. Start as you would on day one and retrain everything from scratch. I would employ NILIF (nothing in life is free) along with teaching extremely well focused attention and impeccable impulse control (look up it's yer choice by Susan Garrett). If you can be very honest with yourself and your dog you will make a new dog and a new relationship.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

My sympathy! I also have a mini but she has been calm since day 1.................keeping a dog that is high energy is tiring! Can you remember your child at terrible 2? That's puppyhood for the first 2 years!!!! Only you can decide if you are willing to put in the time, mess, and trouble it takes! Rehoming sometimes is better for all concerned and you shouldn't feel bad about that either! Good Luck!



P.S. Find him some natural 'long-lasting' chews! Things like Bully sticks, Buffalo ears, Yak cheese, Etc a good place to look is 'BestBullySticks.com'


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

For work he can do inside the house, I recommend training games.

The one I linked to earlier, 101 Things to Do with a Box, is extremely easy to set up and requires almost nothing from you but a box, observation, and treat delivery. I usually play it sitting on the couch watching TV. It's a good sick day game. Basically what you do is set a cardboard box on the ground (Archie's current one came from an Amazon order we did a few weeks back). Karen Pryor cuts the box, but I just fold all the flaps in. Then you wait for the dog to interact with the box - even just looking toward it counts - and click and treat. Once he's figured out that looking at the box will earn him a treat, stop giving a treat for that. Wait for him to escalate or offer a new behavior, like walking toward the box. Then give him treats until he's doing that reliably and stop until he offers something new. You can do short sessions or long ones, but always end while he's still very interested in the box. So far Archie has taught himself to push the box, flip it over, and stand in it using this method.

By the way, you can use a similar method to teach your dog to go lie down on a mat or blanket. Lie out the blanket, then reward him for paying attention to it, then going toward it, then standing on it, then standing on it for longer and longer amounts of time, then lying on it, etc. If you don't lead him, just wait for him to offer you a behavior you can reward, it'll tire his brain out faster.

Impulse control games are also great for wearing out the brain AND teaching general self-control skills. An easy one (for the human) is to just hold a treat in your hand where your dog can see it. If he reaches for the treat, close your hand. Wait until he stops trying to get it from you, then open your hand again. If he reaches again, close your hand again. Repeat until he stops reaching for the treat. Again, no cues or corrections - just wait for him to figure it out. Then say "Take it" and let him have it. At first give him the treat right away when he decides not to grab it, then slowly increase the amount of time he needs to ignore the treat, whether he needs to sit first, etc. The key point is for him to see something he wants and CHOOSE to do something besides immediately rush toward it.

Maybe try teaching him some "service dog" type tasks around the house. Teach him to put socks away in the hamper. Or tie a cloth to the refrigerator door and teach him to use it to pull it open. Teach him to hit light switches. Whatever you can think of. Google "how to teach dog to _____" and I bet you'll find someone who's done it before and can show you the steps. Or look up the AKC Trick Dog requirements and start teaching him things from the list.

The biggest positive I could see in your description of him is that he likes doing work for treats (learning sit, etc.). So use that to your advantage!

EDIT: Does he like to play tug-o-war games with his toys? Archie LOVES it, so we taught him to periodically "drop it" and "take it" with the toy. When I say "drop it," I stop tugging with him until he lets go of the toy. Then I say "Take it!" and immediately begin a super fun tug game. We've practiced this a lot, so at this point he'll drop it, wait, do a trick, then FINALLY he can take the toy again. It adds another dimension to his play time and helps him practice listening even when he's keyed up and excited.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

What a difficult situation. You have a lot going on and I hope some of these comments help.

You have a lot of excellent advice from fjm, Catherine, zooey'smom, Dechi, and others. I am going to take a slightly different (but not at all contradictory) tack.

You've said that you give Charlie lavish praise when he does things well. Can we take this another step: Are there any things that Charlie likes doing? That you and your son enjoy doing with Charlie? 

Is it running like a maniac outside, or eating certain meat, or something else? Does he ever like to cuddle? Does he like to play fetch? (do you have any safe areas to do this, where he can't destroy anything else in your household?

Can you use these as a reward? So that when he is calm/ does the behavior you want for 30 seconds, you give him his reward (and expand to a minute, etc. etc.)

Here's another thing: while I fully agree that dogs need mental stimulation, some of the dogs I've had have needed more exercise than others. Daily (fast-ish) walks and some running should discharge some energy. A dogwalker that could do this, if you can't, could be worth his or her weight in gold.

You mention food. On the one hand, Charlie has found his ways to get the food he wants. I wonder if you could find another brand, with limited ingredients, more "organic" if you will, and a gradual changeover, if that would help. When you described the way Charlie poops it sounded to me that his current food does not particularly well suit him. It could also be that he is slightly uncomfortable and that is making him a bit more ornery than he needs to be. You might want to see if one of the more highly-rated foods on dog food advisor is available and try that for a bit.

Then, as so many of us have said, this behavior of "you are not the boss of me" is unfortunately a phase that most or all young dogs go through. Pericles who is a sweet soul was a terror for a short while. 

By the way he chewed up my Amex card. Any packs of tissue in my purse are still like gold to him as are used tissues. I have learned to leave my purse zipped up tight.

You might be able to use the occasion of a neuter as a time to re-set your relationship. Charlie can come back from the vet to a new set of rules, lots of cuddles and pets hopefully, but also some new expectations of him.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

samgie88 said:


> ...So far I have $4,200 invested in this puppy and that doesn't include neutering, the born with umbilical hernia to be fixed, and the services of a trainer and the animal communicator which can be at least another $3-4,000...


Sounds like "Charlie got issues", to put it mildly. 

There's an old saying I adhere to:

_*Never throw good money after bad.*_

Applies to stocks, investments, time, and love. When it doesn't work out, the temptation is to keep doling out precious resources unrealistically hoping it will work out, even though your investment in the self-described "poodle from hell" has become a bottomless pit that swallowed up every resource you put into him. Sounds like he needs the one thing you don't have: a farm-type environment with other dogs. Give it to him so you can both move on happily with your lives. 

And, for another $3 to 4K that you mentioned, you can get another poodle without the baggage and have plenty of money left over, as well as time and love. I'd shoot for a different breeder though.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This dog should not be thrown away as a bad investment. As I suggested above a true attitude reset that he is really a good dog in an unruly suit and helping him shed the bad behaviors with a fresh start is in order. Lily was a very very very hard puppy, but she is a wonderful dog and figuring out how to do right by her helped me become a much more settled and consistent person.

BTW I think marialydia may have hit on something important with respect to food. If Charlie doesn't feel well because of problems with the food a change in diet could be an important ingredient in helping him develop into the good dog that his parentage suggests he really can be.


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

I have tried other foods but he refuses to eat them even if starved.
He will vomit bile by the spoonfuls around the house if he is on an empty stomach. I have tried ground hamburger mixed with grated carrots, and vitamins lightly baked in the oven. He has gone crazy for this AM feeding for a whole 5 days. Now he refuses it until evening. Going hungry all day except for training treats = to about 1 oz of freeze dried liver.

He will eat about 3 oz of puppy kibble in his night crate.
He begs and whines at the table while we have our dinner.

Most of the responders here seem to lean strongly towards rehoming and as one put it "Don't throw good money after bad."
I agree if it is stocks or an old car. But dogs are beings not material goods.
They just don't understand that with my epileptic, OCD, anxiety, affected son
giving Charlie away would perpetuate his issues immensely. Seizures are serious possibly life threatening episodes.

I'll have to do my best to accept Charlie and work with him as best as possible for his sake and the sake of my son and I.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

marialydia, you just reminded me of when I first got Archie (he was about 10 months old when we adopted him) and I had to wake up 1-2 hours early so I could take him over to the dog run every morning and throw a ball for him until he was settled enough to actually pay attention in the house. And then he was back at the dog park every evening to play chase with the neighbor dogs until he was tired enough to go to bed. Oof, it's easy to forget how exhausting dogs can be at this age. It does sound like this dog is particularly difficult, but still.

I will warn that Archie's _just_ reached the point where he's chill and fine with short walks and some minor mental work and play time every day, and he turns 4 in August. So I wouldn't anticipate that this dog will calm down anytime soon either.


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

lisasgirl.....Yes I understand. I have read on here and online that poodles can really be a handful. Many have given up on their dogs simply because they take so long to settle down, even after lots of running and games.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Once they do settle down though they are wonderful companions. Lily was a really wild child until she was almost three and Javelin is on about the same schedule as he will be three in May and in the last two months has really turned a corner on some of his crazy stuff.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> This dog should not be thrown away as a bad investment...


I never said anything about "throwing away the dog". This creates visual images of dropping off the dog on the side of the road, etc., to an uncertain fate. Instead I described the benefits of _rehoming_ in this case - as did others - without using that word because I didn't think I needed to be that concrete. Throwing away _money, time, love and resources_ on a dog or any other relationship or endeavor that hasn't worked out after many efforts is a whole different ballgame. To be clear, this is what I addressed. 

The issue is moot anyway. Samgie88, in your post after mine, you added your child's attachment to this pet, saying _"giving Charlie away would perpetuate his issues immensely. Seizures are serious possibly life threatening episodes..." _ 

This adds another dimension in a your dilemma and makes your situation more complicated since you worry you shouldn't rehome him for the sake of you son, whereas initially your child was not mentioned and I was under the impression that you were trying to make up your mind.

Given this, the only other idea I have is that for a third of the money you mentioned you might additionally spend, a dog trainer may help bring about some changes, combined with a meditation teacher to help you cope with the grieving and stress you discussed. Whatever you do, I hope it works out for you.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Buck has an up-to-date passport from Hell with plenty of re-entry stamps! I don’t blame the breed or my dog, it’s all on me. I had a steep learning curve after decades of Scottish Terriers. My first mistake was telling my breeder that I wanted a higher energy dog. An elderly poodle has 10x the energy of a poodle! We had an excellent trainer for over a year. She had worked with Dr. Sophia Yin, whose videos and materials are still on the Internet. Unfortunately, when she left training for another field, the replacements I found were terrible and didn’t last long. I took the 2-3 year view on poodle maturity and followed the suggestions of the experienced trainers on the Forum, daily. I hope you can re-set with Charlie. Celebrate every small success, maintain a sense of humor and perspective. Get a flirt pole or run him through the commands he has to drain that last bit of energy.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

In your position, as described, I would rehome this rambunctious teenager. For your needs, I would look for an older dog of 18months to 2 years old. One who has had experience and training. You might wait a while for one to come around but the wait will be worth the effort. In your position, another puppy could be another mistake.

Eric.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

ericwd9 said:


> In your position, as described, I would rehome this rambunctious teenager. For your needs, I would look for an older dog of 18months to 2 years old. One who has had experience and training. You might wait a while for one to come around but the wait will be worth the effort. In your position, another puppy could be another mistake.
> 
> Eric.


Totally agree Eric, and speak from experience, I personally at my age would not get as pup. I will take them from 8 months to 3 years


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Meant to say an elderly poodle has 10x the energy of a Scottie! I think you and Charlie got off to a rocky start because you were processing and grieving your wife’s recent death. Sincere condolences on such a profound loss. Charlie is 10 months old and you’ve had him since he was a puppy. The bond, a reasonable schedule and the training takes more time. You can easily find him a new home and don’t restrict yourself to farmers. Mini’s are in shorter supply than the other sizes. I know someone will have a great poodle but I hope it’s you. Your call, of course.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Mfmst said:


> Buck has an up-to-date passport from Hell with plenty of re-entry stamps...


That's funny. I can picture that with a Gary Larson cartoon.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Since you are worried about your son's illness being exacerbated by letting Charlie go, it sounds like you are keeping your dog. In that case, I suggest renaming him. Charlie is a name that has a lot of, no, stop it, not that, no, bad dog, attached to it. It's not a name that means, wow, that was good, do that again, you're awesome. Change his name and restart your relationship, restart training as if you've never met this dog before, and start again.


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

To all you kind and thoughtful contributors I say thank you. I've taken note of all your ideas and suggestions. I hope with time to return here and post that Charlie has turned the corner and he is better trained and much more mellow.
Wish us luck and yes a few prayers would be helpful.

Thank you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with Click-N-Treat about renaming him (I think I did suggest that in my first post here). Everything with this dog needs to be a clean slate/fresh start.

I wish you great success, but remember training with science and evidence, not prayers and hopes, are what will rebuild the relationship.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Right, I am going to take on the mantle of Wise Woman (I reckon I am now of a suitable age!); ignore Sophy who tells me I am a lousy Animal Communicator because I never listen to her no matter how often she tells me it _must_ be supper time by now, and if not please can she have a treat?; pull up a familiar cat; and make a prediction. Little Chas will turn out to be the best dog ever, but only if you work on changing the things around him that you control. The fact that trainers and his breeder have all suggested that you should rehome him indicates they feel that for whatever reason your household is not ideal for him - with everything else you have had to cope with over the last few years it would hardly be surprising if the needs of one typically naughty puppy have not been your top priority. But if you want him to be the wonderful dog he could be you need to concentrate on changing as many of the things that are getting in the way of that as you can. It is not just a matter of training - he is telling you he may need a change of food, a change of routine, a different level of exercise, more fun and less stress (chewing can be a self soother, as well as a sign of sore gums). He needs you to listen to what he is trying to tell you, and then he may begin to listen to you in return.

I think it is now a case of applying thought and time rather than money - you may need some professional help, but I would do some reading first to steer you in the right direction.

I recommend:
Don't shoot the dog, by Karen Pryor
For the love of a dog & The other end of the leash, by Patricia McConnell
How to train your dog like a pro, by Jean Donaldson

and all the kikopup videos on youtube, too.

Good luck - you can change his behaviour, but you may need to change some of your own thinking first...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Duplicate post - spooky, eh?!


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

Thank you @FJM for your contribution.
I agree with you. You can be sure that Charlie has been receiving our FULL attention and nothing less. I can also assure everyone that I'm not using prayer and hope as my guides to achieve the result, but proven scientific training methods based on the numerous books and videos we have read and watched.

*What are your thoughts on tethering training?*
*How valuable do you find this training tool?*


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I teather my dogs to me when they are young as part of teaching nothing in life is free. They learn to follow my lead.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Tethering (particularly to yourself) is a great tool to use when you can't fully supervise your dog. My spoo was tethered to me and various items close to me (as I moved from room to room) when she was a puppy. This kept her out of a lot of trouble. When they are tethered to you, they do learn to move with you and to respect your movements. Even though Shae was attached to me, I walked where I pleased and expected her to follow. I didn't walk around her, she moved for/around me. 

I don't remember when she earned time off of tethering when I wasn't hawkeye watching her, maybe 6 mos old? Your dog is much past this age, but you must start with the basics when you start to retrain. Since your dog seems very orally fixated, tethering may be a good strategy for you while you go through the retraining process.

Many times dogs steal and snatch because of the response they get from us. Tethering prevents the dog from getting to undesirable options in the first place, so there is no reaction from us which is their reward. And it does help them to learn our movements. Roaming free (inside, outside, doesn't matter) is a privledge; a dog must earn that by proving they are trustworthy (not soiling, not getting into things, not chewing, etc.).

Several people above mentioned to employ the "life is not free" approach to training; an approach I second and have used fro both of my dogs. You want this, you do this or give me this first. I firmly believe, when dogs and children act out it is because they haven't been given clear boundaries, so they develop a sense of entitlement, which makes them unruly. Some dogs need more rules than others. Yours seems to need more. 

There has been a lot of great advice and I think you have a chance of correcting the situation if you start completely fresh and treat your dog like he is 8 weeks old. Do your research and try to remain logical. Every resource belongs to you; teach him that. You'll share your resources, but you expect him to earn them. All food comes from you; hand feeding every meal is a great way to bond and train. Many of us on here have pups that didn't eat from a bowl for months after coming home. Watch him like a hawk, use tethering or an exercise pen if you can't. It is amazing how allowing something to happen a few times creates a habit. Habits are hard to break, so stop them before they begin.

I wish you good luck in your training!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with others about tethering as a useful tool (even though I haven't done it for any of our dogs, used crates for unsupervised moments). It is particularly helpful with house soiling issues to use a leash as a tether.

Another thing to think about are attention and focus games to teach your boy that you are more interesting than virtually all things in the world other than you and your son. As I think I mentioned earlier the five cookie attention game and it's yer choice are things that will help you with that.

Also I didn't mean to say you shouldn't pray if it is important to you to do so, but use consistent evidence supported methods to train and prayers to give you the patience to get through it all.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Archie was tethered to me when he first came home, then we moved to letting him drag the leash (it was a small 6-foot leash). That way we could step on it or grab it if he needed to redirected from something in a hurry. In our case, we had to stop letting him drag it pretty quickly because our cat thought the dragging leash was a delightful toy, which of course led Archie to decide the cat was _also_ a fun toy, which created a bit of a negative feedback loop for the two of them. But if the cat hadn't interfered I think we would've stuck with that for a while as an intermediary step. He was also crated or confined any time we couldn't watch him for his first six months or so. And this was all starting at 10 months old, since that's how old he was when we adopted him.

The way I think of it is, you're trying to control his actions and environment such that he only has *positive experiences* for a while. I want him to be in a position where he's constantly doing stuff he can get praised and rewarded for. So I tethered him to me or otherwise confined him so that he *couldn't* do things he might get punished for. It removed punishment from the equation for a while. Then, after I was sure he knew what he _should_ do, I started giving him a little more freedom so he could experiment and find some of the things he shouldn't do.

Now, the downside of tethering is that you have to provide all the exercise, play, and entertainment that your dog might normally find on his own. That means always having appropriate toys, chews, and treats close at hand, and it means lots and lots of supervised exercise. So it's more of a commitment than it at first appears.

If you haven't already, set up a confinement area for your dog where you can give him a bit of a time out. It sounds like he's pretty rambunctious and likes to mouth at arms and legs, so having him tethered to you might get a little annoying. If you feel yourself getting tense, put him in his confinement area (exercise pen, crate, room with nothing expensive in it, whatever) and give him a Kong stuffed with kibble or something that he can chew on. Then come back for him when you've calmed down. It's important for you to work with him when you're in a calm state of mind, because if you're upset he's likely to pick up on it and get crazier. Poodles are VERY good at picking up on how people feel, and if they don't know how to cope with what they're intuiting then they go a little nuts trying to expel the energy. So make sure you're taking care of yourself, too.


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## sunfunartist (Mar 24, 2017)

To me sounds like a bad breeder that will not take a dog back? I heard that bad breeding can produce neurotic poodles. Sounds like he has OCD.. Sounds like you are doing all the right things. I would recommend a licensed behavioral veterinary for advice. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*Private messages?*

FOR TAMIKA and others with an answer,

Tamika I have sent you a second message as I see you received the first re ELAINE. But I have no idea if 2 others got through to you.

Question? I have sent private messages to others as well and to be honest I did get responses to some but not others. I'm wondering if they are getting through. 
I know I'm logged in but after I write the message it won't go through until I log in again. Then the message is lost. I have to redo it.

I also notice that there is zero in my SENT file.
What am I doing wrong?

Thank you in advance.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You may have to reset your message preferences to see what you have sent. I think I have seen and replied to your messages, but LMK if you think I might not have seen something more recent than our initial discussion.

I'm not sure what to say regarding logging in and out and in again affecting PMs. If you don't see things more to how you want them by reseting message preferences you can either message admin or post a new thread in the tech support subforum.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

I don’t know about the logging in and out thing. For the sent messages part, by default it is set to not save a copy in your sent box so you have to go in and set “save a copy in sent”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*RE: People Food For Dogs*

My dog Charlie seems to be getting into a better state of affairs.
His walking, his general behaviour seems measurably better, thanks to the kind help of all that have contributed their thoughts and ideas.

He is very picky with his eating. How do you PF members handle feeding for your dogs now and when they were puppies? How often do you feed them?
Do you have open food or the 30 minutes and it's gone method?

People food for dogs. I have seen several articles such as these that follow;
What are your thoughts on this information?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/sara-reusche/confessions-of-a-dog-trai_b_5634286.html

https://fearlesseating.net/why-you-should-feed-your-dog-human-food/

Why Adding "Human Food" To Your Dog's Diet Is So Important

PS
Am I accurate in saying that this forum is mostly attended by ladies?
To GalofPink & LiLy cd re, you were right, the sent file is default set on NO copies for the file. I corrected this, but having to login again after typing a response is still going on !


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I cook for mine - Sophy in particular hated kibble when it began to go stale (a few days after the bag was opened, according to her nose!), and I worked out that I could feed them pheasant breast and filet mignon for the price of the meat in the reasonable quality wet foods I tried! I researched it carefully, tried several suppliers before finding one I am happy with, and have gradually simplified recipes and processes to get to a food that all the animals love and do well on. 

I follow the basic principle of mostly meat (80% muscle, 10% offal, 10% bone), with added mixed vegetables for the dogs (a legume, something green and leafy, something orange). They all get some oily fish (I am now also trying salmon oil, as the cats are reluctant to eat fish), and the dogs love scrambled eggs. I don't feed much carbohydrate - not good for cats, and the dogs are tiny and I would rather feed them a nutrient dense food. I feed about 50% chicken, 50% beef, lamb and rabbit, and occasionally pork or duck - not turkey, as it gives Sophy diarrhoea. The great thing about a home prepared diet is that it is easy to adjust - more veg when they begin to get plump, an extra dollop of liver if they seem a bit bunged up, a raw chicken wing for teeth cleaning, a treat of chunks of meat on special offer this week, etc, etc.


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*Kibble is not the better food for dogs*

FJM That is a lot of work however when one compares the cost of the better quality food it is really the same price per pound as the cheaper cuts of meats.
Might as well feed real meat to our dogs.
You have it down to science. Are you adding extra vitamins? Raw?

I have prepared lightly baked ground beef, eggs, and lentils patties for at least the morning meal. Freezing extra portions. I also add fish oil omega 3, and steamed broccoli plus vitamins and calcium.
This went well for about 5 days. Now even this is not acceptable to him.

Reading those article in my previous post really make you think. I had read lots about it in the past as my previous dog had allergies to almost every meat.What goes into Kibble then heated at great temps makes it a poor food choice. Did you read the part of how dog food manufacturers put on a huge campaign to scare people off table scraps?

Dr. Pitcairn's book on natural pet care has many recipes. Here is his link.
Pitcairn Education Programs | The Teachings of Richard Pitcairn DVM PhD


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I bulk buy a human grade meat that already has the right balance of offal and bone, which makes it much simpler. I simmer it gently, which makes lots of gravy or jelly, and cook the vegetables in the gravy - if I were just feeding dogs I would cook it all in one pan, but the cats make faces at me if I give them food with green stuff in it! I do give the cats some of the vegetable gravy, just to add a few extra nutrients. By cooking up 5-7lbs at a time and freezing it in small packs (enough for one day's meals) all I have to do is to remember to take out the next lot of meals to defrost.

I have checked that the combination of proteins, offal (especially liver), bone and vegetables covered all the nutritional requirements - I am wary of supplements as it can be easy to overdo things, but do add a little salmon oil if they are not getting much fish. In general I think the answer is variety, and a small variation on the best advice for humans - "Feed real food. Not too much. Mainly meat."

But the best diet is the one your dog enjoys and thrives upon - no point preparing superb cuisine if it upsets his stomach, or he dislikes it. Some picky eaters are that way because they have learned it is the way to get ever better and more interesting food; some because the food they are offered causes them significant digestive discomfort and they eat just enough to stay alive; some - mostly puppies - because there are days when they simply are not very hungry and don't need as much food. Close observation is the best way of determining what the cause is for your dog.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

As far as feeding goes, I've never had a problem when Molly was a puppy, she pretty much ate when she wanted to, as she is free fed (she is an 'only child') and even now at 6 years old has maintained a healthy weight (unless I 'share' too much with her LOL!) . The only thing that has changed is that she is now fed a half raw, half kibble diet. I feed her the raw (chicken, beef, pork,goat, lamb, whatever is reasonably priced at the international market I have found, where you can find unusual stuff too!) in the morning, and then put a measured amount of a high quality kibble in her bowl, which I also change brand/protein every bag. I believe it has contributed to her not being picky and knowing that wherever we go I will be able to find a food she will eat! I do add goodies ocassionally like sardines, eggs, cottage cheese etc. I also cook a meal, now and then, that we can both eat! I have a human/dog cookbook called 'The Dog-Gone Good Cookbook 100 Easy Healthy Recipes For Dogs And Humans by Gayle Pruitt that is really yummy! 
I do research ingredients of every kibble I purchase and then check the rating on Dogfoodadvisor! 
Amount of food she gets is usually 3.5 ozs of raw and 1/3 cup of kibble to 'graze' on ....she is also a mini X and weighs 13 lbs (11" tall at the shoulder)
Every dog is different and you should always do what works for your dog in a healthy way!


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*Kibble not the best Food for our dogs*

Raw meat is ideal however I'm a little concerned about salmonella especially since most chicken is infected by it.
Ground meats are also subject to a lot of bacteria unless properly cooked.
So care needs to be taken.

In today's world of most people running around with their busy schedules, home cooked meals for the family are difficult to come by, let alone cooking for your dog. So *in general* the only people that will cook or better prepare a meal for their dog are those who are not working or are seniors.
Do you not agree?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I cook and I work! And I cook huge amounts of food since all three of my big dogs are on the same meal plan. If you find the benefits worth it you figure out a way to make it work.

I also cook because of potential microbial contamination of raw poultry.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I agree with Catherine , it can be done! When I was a young Mom I held down a full time job and cooked dinner every night except Sunday when hubby did it! Something as simple as a stir fry made with fresh frozen veggies ( no onions) & red bell pepper for flavor served with rice can be eaten by family and dog! I often freeze food into portions when I cook too much! 
I am immune compromised due to illness and I find no problem with raw at all! The warnings are mainly for humans like me, (and I certainly don't eat raw poultry!) but if you follow the rules on handling raw meats, you & the dog will not have a problem. Yes, I think I would worry though if my dog were immune compromised by illness and then would not be serving her raw anything! So far she has a tummy of iron LOL!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have worked out that cooking for two small dogs and two cats takes less than an hour of my time a week. Elapsed time is rather longer, but you could use a slow cooker to safely simmer the meat while you were out. I am not sure that it is a matter of time - some human meals can be made from scratch in less time than it takes to microwave a ready meal or heat a pizza - more, perhaps, that for many people it has become one of those things they consider too difficult. If you think of cooking as a huge palaver, involving buying lots of ingredients and following all the details of a complex recipe, that is understandable. If you learn to cook at your mother's/father's knee, until you just know from experience what ingredients will work together and when something looks right it is a much simpler and more pleasant experience.

I have many happy memories of preparing big family meals with my mother and my sisters, talking and laughing together as my mother coordinated the complexities of one vegetarian, one seafood allergy, one allium intolerance, and various likes and dislikes with considerable humour and even more aplomb! For me cooking is creating something enjoyable to share, a practical way of showing love, which is undoubtedly one of the reasons I choose to cook for my animals.


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## samgie88 (Oct 17, 2017)

*Cooking for the dog*

That is why I wrote *So in general the only people that will cook or better prepare a meal for their dog are those who are not working or are seniors.*

Of course there are the exceptions who cook regularly as in the good old days. Having owned restaurants with home delivery, I know that many simply do not cook especially since today many couples are both in the workforce.
So if they don't cook for their families, imagine cooking for their dog.
Personally I cook daily and avoid all The prepared foods so easily available today at least here in the Toronto and larger city areas.


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