# When to desex and how?



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

There have been several studies about exactly when and how to desex a dog. The newest studies are very frightening. Cancer rates have increased in our dogs at alarming rates, could this big one of the reasons? 
Also very interesting is that they are finding rather than improve temperament it can actually cause fear and aggression issues. Over the last two years there have been at least four studies that repeat the same message. I have gathered some links and the newest is at the top. 
I think Vets, breeders and even rescues are eventually going to have to find alternative methods that stop reproduction but that do not deplete necessary hormones. 
Facebook group information on alternative desex methods. 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/457912764294115/ 

Below is most recent, 
Dogs gonadectomized at ≤ 6 months, between 7 and 12 months, or at > 12 months of age had significantly increased odds of developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with the odds for sexually intact dogs. Females gonadectomized at ≤ 12 months of age and males and females gonadectomized at > 12 months of age had significantly increased odds of developing hemangiosarcoma, compared with the odds for sexually intact dogs. Dogs gonadectomized at ≤ 6 months of age had significantly increased odds of developing a behavioral disorder. The younger the age at gonadectomy, the earlier the mean age at diagnosis of mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms.

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Health Issues Linked to Spaying and Neutering Dogs

-http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Urinary Issues ( this seems to be very common)
http://peterdobias.com/community/2013/04/urinary-bladder-incontinence-dogs-part2/


This is an alternative method that can be done on pups as young as 5 and 1/2 weeks. This has been known since the late 70's. It is cheaper has less complications can be safely done as a young pup before leaving shelter or breeder. Why are we still using traditional methods? 


Historical Chd Information « Alaskan Malamute Club of America

Tubal Ligation and Vasectomy

This brochure, produced by the Alaskan Malamute Club of America, Inc., describes a method of rendering very young puppies incapable of reproduction. The procedures described were developed by AMCA member John Schmidt DVM and fellow veterinarian Dan F. Rice DVM. They were originally developed for the safe handling of puppies produced by test-breedings for chondrodysplasia, a genetic disorder that affects Alaskan Malamutes.

For many years breeders have wanted a method of birth control that would render very young puppies incapable of breeding so that they could be sold as pets and not become a part of the breeding population. It is important to breeders to have these procedures completed before a pup is seven to eight weeks old as many prefer to make placements at that age. Such results may be obtained by salpingectomy (tubal ligation) in the bitch puppy when she is as young as three weeks old and by vasectomy in the male puppy when he is about 5 1/2 weeks old. These procedures are acceptable by the Chondrodysplasia Committee for handling puppies from test litters.

Puppies should be examined carefully prior to surgery. They may be anesthetized and prepared for surgery by the standard methods used in any veterinary practice. In the female a small incision is made into the abdominal cavity caudal to the umbilicus and the ovary is elevated through the incision. The oviduct is easily seen in the mesovarium (see figure 1). It is grasped with forceps; a small section is removed and the cut ends are cauterized. The same procedure is repeated on the opposite side. Both ovaries are returned to the abdominal cavity and the abdominal incision is closed by standard methods. Please note that only a small portion of the oviduct is removed. The uterus and ovaries are left intact.

Vasectomy in the male may be done as soon as the testicles are descended to the scrotum, usually when the puppy is about five weeks old. A single small midline incision is made cranial to the scrotum and a spermatic cord is elevated through the opening. A small incision is then made in the common vaginal tunic of the spermatic cord. The ductus deferens is located in a medial fold of the cord along with a small artery and vein (see figure 2 and 3). The ductus deferens is separated from the artery and vein; a small section is removed and the cut ends are cauterized. The common vaginal tunic is closed around the spermatic cord but usually no sutures are required to close this incision. The procedure is then repeated on the opposite cord. Fascia and skin are closed by standard methods. Again please note that only a small portion of the ductus deferns is removed. The testicles remain intact.

Prospective owners of the pet puppies should be fully informed of the procedures that have been done. A bitch will still come into estrus and show all the signs of a normal heat. She will stand for a male but cannot conceive. It is suggested that bitches be confined when in heat and should be spayed at the usual time recommended by the veterinarian. This will prevent the undesirable manifestations of estrus and eliminate the possibility of later reproductive tract problems.

Figure 1 and 2 are from: “Anatomy of the Dog”:Miller, Christiensen & Evans. W.B. Saunders Co., Philadelphia.
Figure 3: “Guide to the Dissection of the Dog”: Miller. Lithographed by Edwards Bros. Inc., Ann Arbor, Mich. Cornell Univeristy, Ithaca, New York. 1952


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I think the best thing to do would be to instead of teaching Vet Students to desex they should be taught to sterilize. So instead of an overiohysterectomy a hysterectomy should be preformed. This way the dog still has the ovaries to produce the necessary hormones need, but can not reproduce. 

This is a great video by Dr. Karen Becker a very respectable holistic veterinarian. It has a lot of good information on spaying and neutering. 






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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Very interesting video, I've finished watching and already opened conversations with two veterinarians I am friends with to get their opinions to. Both are very open minded and I'm extremely curious about what they'll say.


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## cjay (Oct 28, 2013)

Thanks for posting the information. It's a hard decision to make for sure.


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## LCS (Jan 8, 2014)

*Like to bring this topic back up*

Hi all,

After having read some of this information, and other studies on the web, and learning more about what they do in Europe, I was well on my way of thinking of not neutering my pup (assuming one of the male puppies in the litter has the temperament I'm looking for). Just to be clear, I am all for ensuring that my dog does not breed - no arguments here that there is a crazy overpopulation issue. (Which is why I have been searching the Mid-west for a vet that does vasectomies.) UNTIL I realized how many doors would be closed to me and my pooch. Not neutering by 6 months closes off certain training centers, doggie daycare is a no go, and I'm not sure I feel I could, with a straight face leave my dog off leash at a dog park. I want to go to those places, I want my dog to be a good K9 citizen, I want him to be welcomed and not have 'issues' caused by either his own hormones or people who don't know the full story rejecting us from society.

So now comes the wrestling of options...

1. Do not neuter and limit the dogs solicitation opportunities for life.

2. Neuter after 1 year to minimize potential health issues and gain some of the benefits of waiting (though two of the doggie day care managers said that males altered that late are often turned away because of marking behaviors that never go away)

3. Successfully find a place to do the vasectomy and risk still being turned away at certain places and marking issues.

4. Neuter and take my chances - knowing that I have dealt with endocrine diseases before and 'managed'.

What options am I not seeing? Do any of you have intact male Spoo's - how naughty are they with marking and other unruly behaviors. Geeeezzz, it is so true, ignorance CAN be bliss.....

LCS


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

That is a hard decision for sure. I am going through a similar situation with my female Tpoo. I did want to point out that if you have a vasectomy done on him the vet should still give you a certificate stating that he is sterile and can not reproduce. It is a though decision, Same with Vaccines, you don't want to over vaccinate yet most places require you to. Personally if a place does not allow me to sign a waiver for the bordatella vaccine I will go somewhere else. To me that is a sign of them not cleaning properly and allowing sick dogs to attend/board. 


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

The link below did not attach correctly. 
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UC DAVIS has been given another grant from CHF and I am sure over the next couple of years we will learn much more about the ramifications of spay and neuter. It will take time for Vets to get on board with new thinking.
Look how long it has taken for titers and minimal vaccination to even begin to catch on.........
Education is the key to changing things.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

Wow! Thank you so much for that video. I too used to be a fanatic about spaying and neutering. Euthanizing healthy friendly puppies and kittens will do that to you. After living in europe (and meeting responsible pet owners in the states) I have been reconsidering some of my beliefs and opinions. My puppy was just born yesterday and of course I want to do what's best for her. I had thought that spaying was part of that, I have a lot of thinking and research to do. My last three dogs, 2 males and 1 female were all fixed. In Germany there are many intact dogs and they don't have the overpopulation problems the US does. I will definitely be talking with my vet about this information. Again thank you and all the others in this thread. I am so glad I came across this forum! Rachel


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

So here I am back again. I spoke with one of my vets (it's a practice with 8 vets and I like and trust them all) she had never heard of of leaving the ovaries. She also told me because she has no experience with that kind of 'spay' she would not be willing to do that with my dog. One of the many reasons I like this practice is the upfront honesty and refusal to use someones pet as a guinea pig. One of the main differences in German vet care vs. American vet care is here there is no mandatory continuing education. The practice I use does voluntarily do CE. So for now my plan is to have my girl spayed(the standard ovariohysterctomy) at about a year. I have no experience owning an intact dog and call me a lazy coward:behindsofa: I just don't feel up to the responsibility. Any thoughts or suggesttions are always welcome. Rachel


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## desertreef (Nov 14, 2009)

Rachel - I don't think you should worry... spaying her near a year old sounds like a responsible plan and good for your little girl. 

Regarding cancer... you can tie it to so many things. I'm still shocked that people are treating their dogs with hotdogs! That is also linked to cancer. Then again - it's what they are feeding their kids too.

Feed them healthy food (and treats- watch where they are coming from) provide good water - don't use pesticides or harmful cleaners ... those are some ways to help protect them. 
And support their immune system - simple Vit C each day is beneficial... and do not vaccinate unless they need it. (rarely do they after their puppy series...or just one given after they turn 16 weeks old.)


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

It is going to take as least as long as it did to get the word out about over vaccinating. Even tho we have know about titers and the risks of over vaccinating our animals for at least 15 years we still have Vets advocating for yearly vaccines! 
UC Davis has been given another grant from CHF hopefully as information comes out Vets will begin to learn about hormone sparing desex. Knowledge is power. 
This FB group is growing daily and Vets are added almost as often!!! 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/457912764294115/

This is a flyer put out by a rescue group that is now using a hormone sparing desex on Rotties, hoping it catches on!!! I tried to attach it but it is to large.


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## Rachel76 (Feb 3, 2014)

Desertreef and Apres Argent, thank you both for the information and support. Luckly over vaccinating isn't a big problem here. Most people get their puppies vaccinated and then on an as needed basis, for example traveling to another country. Once again I'm so pleased I came across this forum and to think I had just googled ' plucking poodle ear hair'


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