# Resource Guarding - Spoo Puppy



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S.If anyone feels I'm over-reacting, PLEASE say so. That's honestly what I want to hear. I want to hear that your perfectly normal poodles did the same thing at this age or would do the same thing in similar circumstances. 

It's just.....the first month with Peggy was very emotionally hard. And shortly before that, we lost my little senior girl who would never in a million years guard ANYTHING. So that's what I'm used to. That's what's normal to me.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I don’t think you’re over reacting at all. Growling at people is totally unaceptable and a big NO-NO. I think your husbands actions triggered it and now you have an open window for teaching her how to behave.

The trading game is probably one good way of doing it. She is young and I am certain she will grow out of it, especially if you are careful not to give her reasons to fear that her food will be forcefully taken away from her.


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## MerrysSarah (Dec 9, 2018)

I'm not a trainer or an expert, but to me that is scary. I have small kids so I wouldn't keep a dog that had any issues with resource guarding. Even though my kids are well behaved (most the time) and know to be respectful they are still kids and forget once in awhile. I'm sure someone will chime in with some helpful advice soon! 

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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Dechi said:


> I don’t think you’re over reacting at all. Growling at people is totally unaceptable and a big NO-NO. I think your husbands actions triggered it and now you have an open window for teaching her how to behave.
> 
> The trading game is probably one good way of doing it. She is young and I am certain she will grow out of it, especially if you are careful not to give her reasons to fear that her food will be forcefully taken away from her.


Thank you for the compassion and also the reassurance. It's been hours and I'm still so disproportionately shaken up. I want to be able to say I trust my dog completely, but I worry I'll never be able to feel that way about her. Then again - sheesh! Does that ever feel overly dramatic when I see it typed out like that.

I wish I could borrow some of my husband's calm. He very much shrugged it off, like, "I yanked a treat out of her mouth. She was afraid it would happen again. She communicated her concern. No biggie."

But I tend to see it as: My last dog would have NEVER. Plus, we've worked on preventing this sort of behaviour since day 1. Why was all that hard work suddenly undone?

Or perhaps it was cumulative—the straw that broke the camel's back—and I just didn't realize? We did have multiple scares in a short span of time when she kept swallowing my hair scrunchies. Maybe all the panicked grabbing added up? Maybe we started taking her willingness to drop "treasures" for granted, and unwittingly undid our own training and/or lost her trust....


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MerrysSarah said:


> I'm not a trainer or an expert, but to me that is scary. I have small kids so I wouldn't keep a dog that had any issues with resource guarding. Even though my kids are well behaved (most the time) and know to be respectful they are still kids and forget once in awhile. I'm sure someone will chime in with some helpful advice soon!
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Would you rehome a dog that growled once at you or your kids?

I'm not saying I feel the same way as them (because I very much don't), but I have definitely known people over the years who mostly shrugged off their dogs' growls, just seeing it as normal dog behaviour or, in some cases, FUNNY. (Eek!!)

I feel like my tolerance for this is at the other end of the spectrum. But I do also know that growling is part of the canine communication toolbox, and perhaps my fears are a little extreme....

I recently watched a Zak George video in which his puppy guarded a new and tasty treat from his wife. They just took it in stride as a common (albeit undesirable) puppy behaviour and immediately began counter-conditioning exercises.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I also don't think you're overreacting at all. As I shared with you before, I would have returned her to the breeder after the growl at the vet at 9 weeks old. That was a major red flag for me. My dogs would never dream of growling at me or any other person, for any reason. It is extremely disrespectful for a dog to growl at a human. Growling at each other is different--and something all of my dogs to communicate with each other on a daily basis. 

I honestly think you've done everything right in regards to training her. Do you feel you're able to accept her with this resource guarding aggression? If it's just you and your husband, I think you can definitely manage it. But I would be a little concerned if you are planning on having children.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I also don't think you're overreacting at all. As I shared with you before, I would have returned her to the breeder after the growl at the vet at 9 weeks old. That was a major red flag for me. My dogs would never dream of growling at me or any other person, for any reason. It is extremely disrespectful for a dog to growl at a human. Growling at each other is different--and something all of my dogs to communicate with each other on a daily basis.
> 
> I honestly think you've done everything right in regards to training her. Do you feel you're able to accept her with this resource guarding aggression? If it's just you and your husband, I think you can definitely manage it. But I would be a little concerned if you are planning on having children.


You don't think these were rather unusual circumstances? That's what I'm trying to tell myself right now, because no.... Resource guarding beyond puppyhood is absolutely a dealbreaker for me. 

Even worse, afterwards she regressed to anxious behaviour I've not seen in months: Obsessing over reflections. Lips stretched. Pacing. 

My heart's in my stomach right now.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I should make clear: Peggy's been wonderful for months. She gets excited and nips and bounces and has a short attention span and drives us nuts. But she has the gentlest mouth. Her bite inhibition is so good, I can slide my hand into her mouth while she's chewing on a toy and she will gently try to spit my hand out. I can run my fingers over her teeth, and I feel elated when I feed her even the tastiest treats, because she takes them so gently. She is soulful and affectionate, leaning her head on our shoulders, curling up against us with a toy (or even in my lap when she's sleepy!), and checking in with me or other nearby humans when her dog friends get a little too rough.... She learns fast (too fast!) and I can constantly see her brain working to digest the world around her. Today she was so gentle around a 9-week-old puppy, ran full-speed with her adolescent buddies, and then went straight back to gentle mama mode. She's an athlete but also fully capable of adjusting her style to her playmate's.

She's a star in so many ways.

Edit: And that's not me defending our decision to keep her. That was a heart choice (albeit a hard choice!) after seeing her blossom so quickly. I just think it's important to have the full picture when we discuss behaviour issues.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think your reaction is understandable, but so is Peggy's. She pounced on something interesting, and her Mum became very anxious. She took a treat in exchange for the treasure she had found (Good girl Peggy! Excellent work by human to build this behaviour!), but was still worried enough to take it away to a safe place while things calmed down. And then someone tried to take it from her, while she was still highly stressed. Even then, she just growled a warning rather than snapping.

I am one who believes in permitting growling as useful communication, and working on the anxieties it reveals. I would double down on the games of exchange, and also work on a really reliable Leave it. I use Mine! for anything that is on the floor that I don't want them to touch, or stuff I drop accidentally - a long history of really good rewards means the behaviour is pretty reliable. But the dogs will occasionally resource guard stuff from the cats or from each other, and I have come to recognise it as a completely natural and normal behaviour, which I ensure never gets beyond a little sound and fury signifying nothing. Once upon a time children were taught never to approach a dog while it was eating or chewing a bone, as to do so was to invite reprisal. Nowadays we expect dogs to bend their behaviour around human rules - the amazing thing to me is how well they learn to do so most of the time!


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I actually agree with fjm. I think she was in a highly excited state of mind. She is a dog and I will bet your husband just reached and grabbed rather than talk while changing Peggys mind set. Renn has a very soft mouth and has never growled at anything being taken from his mouth however I bet in a similar circumstance when not given time to think, it could happen. I would do as said and continue the exchange games. I also think that because of her history you may be more anxious and she picks up on it and will take advantage of it. Also I always will ask my dog to drop it, they know that command pretty well and and if for some reason they didn't I have their mind on me and that is when I take it. But I'm no expert .


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## Getting ready (May 4, 2019)

Noodle can give an occasional growl. And, particularly, as they got older and had more physical discomfort, so could my last two dogs. For both it was a short short communication like hey I'm not in the mood for that. But it never turned into anything more serious with the girls and I don't see signs of that with Noodle. Though we are working on it. I think all the work you do with Peggy sounds great. And I'm hopeful for the two of you.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I agree with fjm - I'm in the "growling is communication" camp. I'd much rather have a dog that feels ok to growl when threatened than one that turns immediately to snapping. If it reassures you - one of the gentlest dogs my family ever had growled at me somewhere between 6 and 12 months. I picked him up, and he didn't want to be picked up anymore, and told me. That was the only time in his whole life that he growled at a human.

I'm not suggesting don't keep working on it - just that growling is on the spectrum of normal dog behaviours, and this may just be her testing her adolescent boundaries. I'd be concerned if it's repeated frequently, or if it broadens from "don't take it away!" to "don't come near me!", but one incident of growling is not a life-changing event for me.

In addition to trading, one of my favourite games with Annie is "I hold the treat while you chew it" (she taught me this game when she was a puppy, and we still play it). Basically, I sit on the floor holding an end of her treat to allow her to get her mouth on it better (lazy dog!). As part of our "trade" game, I occasionally take things from her, inspect them, and then return them. I'd never, however, allow someone else or a child to approach her when she has a treat as even though she has been 100% with me, she's still a dog.


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## MerrysSarah (Dec 9, 2018)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Would you rehome a dog that growled once at you or your kids?
> 
> I'm not saying I feel the same way as them (because I very much don't), but I have definitely known people over the years who mostly shrugged off their dogs' growls, just seeing it as normal dog behaviour or, in some cases, FUNNY. (Eek!!)
> 
> ...


I don't know about if a single growl would be enough for me to make the decision to rehome. That would really depend on a lot of factors including the type of growl and the circumstances around it. But I would be very concerned. A tiny grumble to communicate is very different then the serious business kind of growl. A growl to say something hurts is different to me then a growl to say "THIS IS MINE". Sorry you're going through this [emoji17]

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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I too believe a dog growling is communication. Also, I absolutely believe we humans should not expect dogs to feel it’s okay to have their food ripped from their mouths by us. They are animals and they have instincts. Your husband made the mistake and now it has to be fixed so your dog can trust him again. 

If you have kids, they have to understand 100% that you don’t mess with a dog’s food. EVER. 

Now, if Peggy is resource guarding her toys, that’s a whole other story and I’m not sure I would keep such a dog with kids around. It wouldn’t be safe. Or, if she becomes really bad with the food. But this is what you are going to correct now.

Don’t hesitate to get help from a behaviorist if you need to. You’ve come so far with her, I think it would be premature to give up now. Unless, of course, there is any risk a child could get hurt.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Is your home often a bit emotional? It sounds like a pretty loud reaction to her gettting the light (indeed, scary, also a puppy thing to do); and in another post, you said you shriek if she dips her toys in your bath water. Could it be there is a strained quality to the home environment just now?

I agree with Fjm. And also wonder if trying for quieter reactions to what Peggy does might not help her, too. Sorry if this seems impertinent. Also, your past experience with your last dog? There is a spectrum, and this girl will never be able to be your last girl .


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> we've worked on preventing this sort of behaviour since day 1. Why was all that hard work suddenly undone?


What you have worked on is her trading what she has for what you have. That is fundamentally different to a dog from somebody coming and yanking something out of her mouth. She has not had that happen before and she doesn't like it, and she was telling your husband that she doesn't like it. If he had asked her to trade the jerky for something else, or even to "give it" without having something to trade for it she probably would have been fine with that. I hope that when you practice trades you are using a "give it" so that on occasions when you don't have a treat on you but you really need to get something away from her she will give it to you anyway. The key is to ask her rather than just grab it out of her mouth.

It's hard when the dog has something really dangerous in her mouth and you just have to get it away from her as quickly and any way you can. It is important to train a very solid "drop it", and "give it" and to practice and reinforce them a lot so that you don't have to jerk things out of her mouth.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Misha has only ever growled when I'm expressing his anal glands. I consider that appropriate. I would probably growl too. He doesn't try to bite. But he does let me know it's an invasion of his privacy!

Recently Misha's leave it game has gotten so good that when he steals my underwear, I can tell him "Leave it!" and he will drop it. I give him lots of treats when he does this. In the past I've traded for the underwear but I think this new system shows a greater amount of self control. So, just a thought, but you might try teaching Peggy this version (also works with Drop if they're good with that) which may help to reduce her anxiety about relinquishing stuff. When you trade for a treat, I think they have more of an automatic response that they're not actually thinking through. Misha will drop things for a treat that he certainly prefers over a treat! He probably thinks I'm tricking him. But I know that when he lets go of it simply because I ask, that he has truly made the decision to relinquish it to me.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Robin, I do think this is just Peggy's temperament. I was just reading your post about her air snapping behavior. I was quite shocked everyone there said that was "normal" puppy behavior. To me, it is not. Also, anyone saying she is just a puppy and will outgrow this--imho, she will only get more of these traits as she gets older. And finally, even if you or your husband are giving off "anxious" vibes as has been suggested, I live with clinical anxiety and my dogs can handle my full range of expression of that anxiety just fine.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Robin, I do think this is just Peggy's temperament. I was just reading your post about her air snapping behavior. I was quite shocked everyone there said that was "normal" puppy behavior. To me, it is not. Also, anyone saying she is just a puppy and will outgrow this--imho, she will only get more of these traits as she gets older. And finally, even if you or your husband are giving off "anxious" vibes as has been suggested, I live with clinical anxiety and my dogs can handle my full range of expression of that anxiety just fine.


I do agree with you that I would be concerned. I also believed the air snapping was not normal puppy behavior. I fostered a dog that had issues with fear aggression, and that experience taught me I never want to deal with that again. The anxiety it gave me was terrible. And when she hit adulthood the symptoms got more extreme. I believed we could work through her puppy insecurities. And we did to a point. She got much better in general, but there was always a chance that something would set her off and she would lose it and lunge and snap at somebody just for running by her too quickly or for wearing a hat she didn't like. You can't guard against such things. It was the instability in her temperament that I couldn't handle. She was a paranoid dog. She ended up going to a rural home where she wouldn't have to deal with such stimulation on a daily basis. Which was great because she was also a wonderful extremely loving and loyal dog that would make somebody a great partner. But it made me a wreck while she was with me. I think if you decide to keep a dog that shows signs of an unstable temperament, you shouldn't do so on the expectation that the dog will become normal. You should do so with the expectation that you will work on things and hopefully they will improve, but you may have to manage the behaviors for the full life of the dog. I hate to say it because it's not what people want to hear.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Jean Donaldson has a booklet titled "Mine" about resource guarding in dogs, might be helpful.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Robin, I do think this is just Peggy's temperament. I was just reading your post about her air snapping behavior. I was quite shocked everyone there said that was "normal" puppy behavior. To me, it is not. Also, anyone saying she is just a puppy and will outgrow this--imho, she will only get more of these traits as she gets older. And finally, even if you or your husband are giving off "anxious" vibes as has been suggested, I live with clinical anxiety and my dogs can handle my full range of expression of that anxiety just fine.


A dog’s attitude also depends on his humans. The way we react to dogs is very important. In the past, I’ve had one rescue dog I kept for a while and one of my own dogs I had to rehome because my ex was too allergic. Both dogs were dealt with in my usual « no nonsense » approach, and treated as dogs, not as babies, even though they were small dogs.

Well, on both occasions, I got a call from the rescue organization and the owner because the dogs were displaying aggressive behaviors. I had the dogs for months/years without any problems and the other people had them a short while before the problems started. 

So sometimes, yes, it’s best to rehome the dog with someone who has more experience. But I still believe it can be improved with the right guidance.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Raindrops said:


> I think if you decide to keep a dog that shows signs of an unstable temperament, you shouldn't do so on the expectation that the dog will become normal. You should do so with the expectation that you will work on things and hopefully they will improve, but you may have to manage the behaviors for the full life of the dog. I hate to say it because it's not what people want to hear.


Absolutely. That‘s what I have done with Merlin and I would much rather deal with a fearful aggressive dog than a true aggressive dog, because I know exactly what triggers him, and even if I don’t know, his body language is quite clear.

I don’t think Peggy is unpredictable at all, though, She gives warning signs by growling. I’m also pretty sure if we all gave our dogs their favorite treat tonight, went to them and proceeded to yank it out of their mouth, some of us might be surprised with what would happen... It’s just not right to do so. We ask our dogs to be respectful of us, well, it goes both ways !


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Dechi said:


> Absolutely. That‘s what I have done with Merlin and I would much rather deal with a fearful aggressive dog than a true aggressive dog, because I know exactly what triggers him, and even if I don’t know, his body language is quite clear.


Yes, I have read about your struggles with Merlin and I think you are doing a great job with him. The fear aggression probably isn't as bad when it has specific triggers and warnings signs. What I cannot handle is an unstable temperament with no warning signs. That's what I had in my foster dog. She would go from googly puppy eyes wagging tail and excited to meet somebody, then all of a sudden she would flip and start lunging and barking her head off at them. On multiple occasions she tried to bite or snap at people as well, sometimes as a first response. No apparent trigger or warning given. It was really upsetting because she also loved people and desperately wanted to meet new people all the time. So there was the appearance that she was over her fear and then it would show up unexpectedly.

Peggy probably isn't nearly so bad as this. It's just an experience that has made me overly cautious, and taught me that puppy behaviors can become more extreme adult behaviors.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Streetcar said:


> Is your home often a bit emotional? It sounds like a pretty loud reaction to her gettting the light (indeed, scary, also a puppy thing to do); and in another post, you said you shriek if she dips her toys in your bath water. Could it be there is a strained quality to the home environment just now?
> 
> I agree with Fjm. And also wonder if trying for quieter reactions to what Peggy does might not help her, too. Sorry if this seems impertinent. Also, your past experience with your last dog? There is a spectrum, and this girl will never be able to be your last girl .


I think you're right. Not impertinent at all. She'll leap straight up with "Ready to go!!!!" excitement if someone so much as sneezes. If she's sitting calmly in class and our trainer lifts her arms or uses an excited voice to make a point, up goes Peggy! She's very much tapped into the mood and energy around her, which I should be working harder to use to our (and her) benefit.

But....

To clarify, it was a piece of BROKEN light bulb. Extremely sharp. I actually suppressed my panic in the moment (my instinct was to grab or chase) and calmly did the trade instead. But yes, I'm sure she sensed my feelings, regardless of how much I tried to hide them. She is an extremely sensitive girl.

The bathtub shriek thing was more of a silly moment. I was soaking in the tub and suddenly a plunk! and splash! and a big poodle head plunging in after her filthy outdoor plush toy. I didn't shriek AT her, just made a startled sound which she loved and so she decided to turn it into a game.

That said, my husband (who's a very soft-spoken, kind man) did very much yank the jerky from her. He may have even shouted. He did not pause or take a breath. He was very scared. It was not a normal moment. 

I don't blame Peggy for being off kilter after that. That's why I came here looking for reassurance that it was normal behaviour and not a return to initial worrying behaviours (behaviours we were told by many, repeatedly, were not "normal").


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> Yes, I have read about your struggles with Merlin and I think you are doing a great job with him. The fear aggression probably isn't as bad when it has specific triggers and warnings signs. What I cannot handle is an unstable temperament with no warning signs. That's what I had in my foster dog. She would go from googly puppy eyes wagging tail and excited to meet somebody, then all of a sudden she would flip and start lunging and barking her head off at them. On multiple occasions she tried to bite or snap at people as well, sometimes as a first response. No apparent trigger or warning given. It was really upsetting because she also loved people and desperately wanted to meet new people all the time. So there was the appearance that she was over her fear and then it would show up unexpectedly.
> 
> Peggy probably isn't nearly so bad as this. It's just an experience that has made me overly cautious, and taught me that puppy behaviors can become more extreme adult behaviors.


Oh yeah. That doesn't sound like Peggy at all. But I'm so sorry you had to deal with that  It sounds extremely stressful and does put things better in perspective for me.

My worry, for sure, has been that her puppy "quirks" turn into serious adult behaviour issues. But nothing Peggy's done so far has really qualified as unpredictable. Even the air snapping is something she only does in a really heightened state, accompanied by whines and barks and jumping when she's got her eyes, for example, focused on a toy and she's wrestling with my sit command. I've started just putting the toy away when she melts down, and then trying again a minute later. Most of the time, now, she goes more easily into a quiet sit when given a second chance.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Robin, I do think this is just Peggy's temperament. I was just reading your post about her air snapping behavior. I was quite shocked everyone there said that was "normal" puppy behavior. To me, it is not. Also, anyone saying she is just a puppy and will outgrow this--imho, she will only get more of these traits as she gets older. And finally, even if you or your husband are giving off "anxious" vibes as has been suggested, I live with clinical anxiety and my dogs can handle my full range of expression of that anxiety just fine.


I agree, MF. A dog with a stable temperament can absolutely roll with anxiety. My last dog moved all over the country with me. Was by my side through multiple breakups, job and career changes, serious illness, all of it! She'd spend days in a dark room with me while I literally screamed in pain. And she remained rock solid. 

But I don't expect that from Peggy. I know she's wired differently and most of the time it's actually fun. It's really neat having a dog respond to energetic changes. For example, when she found Gracie's old ball, played with it for a few minutes, and then placed it gently back in Gracie's old bed. That's not "normal" puppy behaviour! But in a good way 

I described, in detail, the air snapping to our trainer the other day, and she couldn't have been less concerned. She listened thoughtfully, as she always does, but simply said that rather than repeatedly letting the game escalate, I need to end the game at that moment, period—something I'm embarrassed to say I only started doing recently, thanks to advice I got here. 

Thinking back, my old girl used to launch into hysterics occasionally mid-game, when she was hyper-focused and her humans weren't cooperating. But she was so small! It had a totally different impact. It was actually pretty funny. Maybe I've just not caught up to the requirements of having a larger dog.

Again - I'm not being defensive or justifying Peggy's behaviour. Just trying to work through it all.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Dechi said:


> Absolutely. That‘s what I have done with Merlin and I would much rather deal with a fearful aggressive dog than a true aggressive dog, because I know exactly what triggers him, and even if I don’t know, his body language is quite clear.
> 
> I don’t think Peggy is unpredictable at all, though, She gives warning signs by growling. I’m also pretty sure if we all gave our dogs their favorite treat tonight, went to them and proceeded to yank it out of their mouth, some of us might be surprised with what would happen... It’s just not right to do so. We ask our dogs to be respectful of us, well, it goes both ways !


I agree. Her growl last night surprised me, but wasn't exactly unpredictable. My husband is working hard and learning fast, but he is a novice dog owner and Peggy is not a novice dog. She also happens to be quite the communicator. If you don't get her message the first time, she does NOT give up.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Dechi said:


> A dog’s attitude also depends on his humans. The way we react to dogs is very important. In the past, I’ve had one rescue dog I kept for a while and one of my own dogs I had to rehome because my ex was too allergic. Both dogs were dealt with in my usual « no nonsense » approach, and treated as dogs, not as babies, even though they were small dogs.
> 
> Well, on both occasions, I got a call from the rescue organization and the owner because the dogs were displaying aggressive behaviors. I had the dogs for months/years without any problems and the other people had them a short while before the problems started.
> 
> So sometimes, yes, it’s best to rehome the dog with someone who has more experience. But I still believe it can be improved with the right guidance.


This is very true and part of why I've struggled a bit this time around, not raising and training Peggy alone like I did with my last dog. 

I'm not saying she'd be "better" just with me. But I do believe dogs can benefit from the consistency that comes with having a single owner.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

reraven123 said:


> Jean Donaldson has a booklet titled "Mine" about resource guarding in dogs, might be helpful.


Thank you!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

fjm said:


> I think your reaction is understandable, but so is Peggy's. She pounced on something interesting, and her Mum became very anxious. She took a treat in exchange for the treasure she had found (Good girl Peggy! Excellent work by human to build this behaviour!), but was still worried enough to take it away to a safe place while things calmed down. And then someone tried to take it from her, while she was still highly stressed. Even then, she just growled a warning rather than snapping.
> 
> I am one who believes in permitting growling as useful communication, and working on the anxieties it reveals. I would double down on the games of exchange, and also work on a really reliable Leave it. I use Mine! for anything that is on the floor that I don't want them to touch, or stuff I drop accidentally - a long history of really good rewards means the behaviour is pretty reliable. But the dogs will occasionally resource guard stuff from the cats or from each other, and I have come to recognise it as a completely natural and normal behaviour, which I ensure never gets beyond a little sound and fury signifying nothing. Once upon a time children were taught never to approach a dog while it was eating or chewing a bone, as to do so was to invite reprisal. Nowadays we expect dogs to bend their behaviour around human rules - the amazing thing to me is how well they learn to do so most of the time!


Honestly, the trade really was a huge accomplishment for us. I'm very proud of Peggy, and actually rather proud of myself. Thank you for acknowledging that 

And she didn't snap at my husband when he so unceremoniously yanked her hard-earned prize from her jaws. That in itself should be acknowledged as a win (and a learning experience). 

We are going to double down on "Leave it" training so we don't have to rely so heavily on drop it or trade (or, sigh, yanking). 

She so sweetly drops rocks now when she picks them up in our yard. This used to be a major issue, but it's amazing how quickly we start taking positive learned behaviours for granted. We used to treat her EVERY time. Now it's just once in a while, which won't cut it through adolescence.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Dechi said:


> I’m also pretty sure if we all gave our dogs their favorite treat tonight, went to them and proceeded to yank it out of their mouth, some of us might be surprised with what would happen... It’s just not right to do so. We ask our dogs to be respectful of us, well, it goes both ways !


Of course it's not "right" to do so, but I would still expect my dogs not to growl. And while I agree respect goes both ways, and you know I'm all about +R training, I expect my dogs to respect me a little more because I'm a human, just as I expect children to respect me because I'm an elder. It's normal for more vulnerable creatures to look up to the one who's in charge of taking care of them.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I think you have gotten some good responses on both sides, but I want to add a point: I think it's great to use everybody's feedback to help you work through how to feel about and respond to this situation, but remember that the responses are to how each person perceives what you have written, which is of course based on your perception of what happened. You can see how each step can slightly skew what actually did go on (in Peggy's mind especially). Add to the fact that we all have different priorities for our dogs, and what is not a problem in a toy can be a different matter in a standard (as you have noticed). We are also seeing only snapshots of Peggy through the different stories you share, not the whole 'video' if you will. We can't truly make a judgment based on snapshots.
I do also recommend the book Mine! as someone else suggested. And something I learned from Puppy Culture (worth looking into, for general training and behaviour not necessarily this specification x situation btw): when I do exchanges for preventing resource guarding, I don't show the item I am trading. So with treat hidden, I take item away, slight pause, give treat, then (if possible) return the item. This makes it easier to take an item when you don't have an exchange handy.
I do want to tell you a story: My previous dog, a mastiff, at nine months old had never shown any signs of resource guarding. One day I got the dogs each a smoked bone, and my daughter was playing fetch with them. The pup got tired of the game and brought the bone into her crate to chew. A minute later the baby woke up, so I stepped through the door to pick him up. At that moment my daughter, who normally was reliable, crawled into the crate on top of the dog to grab the bone, to continue playing. Unsurprisingly the dog reacted, and my daughter got hot in the face with a tooth. The dog did not close her mouth, so really she was being reasonable. We doubled down on resource guarding prevention, and she never showed any signs again. 
All that to say, a single instance does not predict what she will be like going forward. Be careful and watchful, work on prevention, but don't get too worked up.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Of course it's not "right" to do so, but I would still expect my dogs not to growl. And while I agree respect goes both ways, and you know I'm all about +R training, I expect my dogs to respect me a little more because I'm a human, just as I expect children to respect me because I'm an elder. It's normal for more vulnerable creatures to look up to the one who's in charge of taking care of them.


I do agree with this, I would actually say that my kids and dogs have to respect and listen to me, and I have to be fair to them. I have to be fair even of they are not being respectful, and they have to respect me even if I do something unfair.
On the other hand, I don't punish or correct a growl per se, since I do think it's helpful as a warning, but I would certainly take any growl as a cue to deal with the underlying issue.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Of course it's not "right" to do so, but I would still expect my dogs not to growl. And while I agree respect goes both ways, and you know I'm all about +R training, I expect my dogs to respect me a little more because I'm a human, just as I expect children to respect me because I'm an elder. It's normal for more vulnerable creatures to look up to the one who's in charge of taking care of them.


MaizieFrosty - i think we've stumbled in to one of the major differences in dog beliefs here. I don't WANT my dog to resource guard with me - but I consider resource guarding an expected, very natural dog behaviour that I need to work to prevent, not expect not to occur through "respect". So far - cross fingers, no resource guarding with Annie, but I've put a lot of work into making that happen. 
Just this summer, my mom's dog (who is 4, and has never growled at a person in her life) resource guarded with a bone - Annie wanted it, she growled at Annie (fine), and then a few minutes later when I tried to kick her off the couch with it (no raw bones on couches!), she growled at me. Not fine, but a reasonable reaction from a dog who already felt threatened. After Mom's dog buried the bone, and started guarding that area of the yard from Annie, we stopped giving both dogs raw bones because Mom's dog couldn't be trusted. These were some of the first ever raw bones mom's dog had had, and she was enthralled with them. I doubled down on "all your things are mine, but I'll give them back, and make it fun when I do so" practice, plus trading, and haven't had an issue since.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Starvt said:


> On the other hand, I don't punish or correct a growl per se, since I do think it's helpful as a warning, but I would certainly take any growl as a cue to deal with the underlying issue.


I definitely agree with you on this :thumb:


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> MaizieFrosty - i think we've stumbled in to one of the major differences in dog beliefs here. I don't WANT my dog to resource guard with me - but I consider resource guarding an expected, very natural dog behaviour that I need to work to prevent, not expect not to occur through "respect". So far - cross fingers, no resource guarding with Annie, but I've put a lot of work into making that happen.


That's excellent that you've worked hard with Annie. I think part of it is training, but most of it is temperament. I would argue that *most* SPOOS are deferential to their owners. Not all dogs are, of course. But if I'm going to spend $2,500 - $3,000 on a dog that I've chosen for the breed's temperament, I want him or her to have a naturally gentle temperament. I raised my spoos in my in-home nursery school, and while I constantly supervised and taught the children rules, such as don't touch the dogs when they are resting or eating, if a mistake occurred, I want to know that my dogs aren't going to growl or snap.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Thank you!


It's a very small, yet exceedingly excellent book . Dogwise.com is a great source for it if you're searching.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Just gotta say....

I LOVE THIS FORUM. Look at all these kind, thoughtful, knowledgable, and diverse responses! I appreciate and respect your perspectives so much. Thank you. ?

Working through and absorbing them all, reading many twice or even three times.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Robin, I really appreciate that you are open to hearing so many different opinions. I didn't want to come across as negative or harsh, but at the same time, I have difficulty NOT being honest about my feelings and perspective. Of course, I wish the best for you and Peggy


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention - The Other End of the Leash


Years ago, I took care of a gooey-sweet adolescent Border collie, (Tilly, I’ll call her) who flattened her ears and folded like a bird’s wing every time you said her name. She was responsive and polite, and the other dogs seemed to like her as much as I did. It was especially rainy when she […]




www.patriciamcconnell.com





Read that.

I recommend you get the book, Mine, by Jean Donaldson. 









Who Was Resource Guarding? And Why We Need to Take it Seriously - eileenanddogs


What is it with me and contests/quizzes, anyway? The Curse of Knowledge got me again! Because of the way I made a guessing game out of two pictures of my dogs, I may have led people to believe that resource guarding is not very serious. I may have even implied that as long as you …




eileenanddogs.com


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## Latte12 (Jan 3, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention - The Other End of the Leash
> 
> 
> Years ago, I took care of a gooey-sweet adolescent Border collie, (Tilly, I’ll call her) who flattened her ears and folded like a bird’s wing every time you said her name. She was responsive and polite, and the other dogs seemed to like her as much as I did. It was especially rainy when she […]
> ...


We have had 3 Spoo and never experience resource guarding, so you are right to be concerned. I am a fan of Cesar Milan and his book has a specific chapter on this. Or you can get some professional help. Suggest you nip this in the bud asap, it doesn't take long to fix.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

In other words, this is normal canine behavior. That is not to say it is something we want to see in our dogs. Many dogs don't feel a need to resort to guarding their stuff around their humans. But it is an instinct. I've worked with dogs that showed this and worse when I was training professionally. Only one of my own dogs showed it and just once. That was with a bully stick. That was my girl Chihuahua. I worked with her for a while and she never did that threatening/warning thing again. She never bit. But she communicated that she really, really, really didn't want to lose her chewy. So I respected that and went on to show her that she wouldn't lose anything when I wanted something from her. In fact, she'd get even better. So, that's what it sounds like you're doing. There are additional things to know and to do, which is too much for me to type. That's why I gave you those links.

Don't despair. Again...this is normal canine behavior...normal for a predator. It is something we need to teach them that we aren't a threat. Some dogs, most dogs I would say don't need much in the way of active training because their temperaments are strong and confident. Or they know their humans so well that they're okay with whatever they do. Your dog may feel a little more insecure and worried. Your husband turned what might have been a non-eventful or less-eventful situation into a frantic, scary situation, which may have put her over her tolerance threshold. Since I've known you on the forum, I've noticed that you and your husband seem terribly nervous in regard to Peggy. You've always questioned whether you're doing everything just right. And you have seemed anxious and upset when some little, normal thing presents itself. It's as if you've never had a dog before and I know you have. So, I'm wondering if this anxiousness and intense emotions are creating some of the problems with Peggy. You are quite possibly transferring this anxious, fearful kind of state to her. And she may be feeling extra vigilant and concerned about things in general. This is not meant as an insult or criticism. It's merely an observation and something I wonder about. Now this thing came up when all along she's been doing quite well with the exercises you've put her through. (leave it, "give"...retrieve and give to hand or drop it...best to teach both) And you've done the trading game etc. Keep it up but additionally, read that article by Pat McConnell and I urge you to read the book, Mine. These things will shed additional light on the subject. I don't believe your dog has a bad temperament and is going to turn into some vicious freak. I think with good handling, a proper treatment protocol (get a *certified* behaviorist if you feel unsure) she'll get back on track. And it is very important that you and your husband take things in stride a little more in other areas, that you calm down and don't worry so much about the smaller things. This one thing, you do need to address. But again, although many or most dogs don't respond to their people that way, some do. The ones I've seen in my career that have escalated to a very dangerous point are the ones who are punished, sometimes severely or who continue to have humans taking things from them a lot. You are doing well by playing retrieve and trading games. Just don't make situations turn into a frantic, scary thing _associated_ with having to ask her to "give" you something she's gotten into.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Always love your input, PB. And you're right. I never quite bounced back from those first couple of weeks. It really shook my confidence. And it's probably made me rather insufferable in our household. Kudos to my husband for rolling with it.

Peggy never showed any tendencies toward resource guarding until that extremely heightened, not especially well handled episode. And she hasn't growled since, though I do see her hunching over treats in a new way. 

Funny enough, watching her do that particular behaviour has reminded me that my mini mix actually did that ALL the time—shielded her treats with her body and gave us a good whale eye. And we laughed about it because we trusted her completely and rolled with it as one of her quirks. And it never escalated.

I can see right there how I treated her differently than I treat Peggy. I probably put much less pressure on her, too, because I was never worried she "wasn't normal." I wasn't constantly studying her. And that breathing room helped her grow into an excellent companion.

I'll keep taking deep breaths when that summer panic creeps in, and keep doing my best to scrub all those scary outside voices from my head—the ones who told me to return her ASAP—and try to have a little more confidence in myself and my decision.

Our trainer thinks Peggy's a hoot, and has expressed zero concern. Even after that growl, she told us to double down on what we're doing and buckle up for adolescence. But there was no panic or talk of "red flags."

(To be honest, I'd be happy if I never heard the term "red flag" again. Eeeeeeeesh. Really did a number on me. I'm guessing it's because I had so recently lost Gracie and wasn't as resilient as usual. Kind of like traumatic experiences during a puppy fear period! It left an emotional mark and the feelings aren't always entirely rational.)

I've bookmarked those links. Thank you again! And I'm sorry if I've been a bit of a basket case on this forum. It's been such a welcome outlet for me. Thanks for recommending it.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> from for want of poodle: I don't WANT my dog to resource guard with me - but I consider resource guarding an expected, very natural dog behaviour that I need to work to prevent, not expect not to occur through "respect".


I _very_ much agree with this. "Respect" is a human emotion and value. To expect dogs to "respect" us the way we think they ought to is anthropomorphizing. They don't share our value system or our morals. If we want our dogs to go along with our program we need to teach them by way of learning theory. Dogs would not have been able to reproduce, pass on their survival genes and evolve if they had been passive and let others take their bones or food away from them. It is not a bad temperament imo, but a strong instinct that is stronger in some dogs than others. And I've seen great success with helping dogs over come the tendency to guard their stuff. There are good treatment protocols used by behaviorists and good trainers. 

(I highly recommend you don't turn to Cesar Milan for any kind behavioral advice.)


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Robin, I missed that last post of yours when I wrote my most recent.
I think you're very, very insightful and all of you in your little family are going to mellow right out here soon. Having a new dog, especially a puppy is a big adjustment. There are things to worry about. I just want you to try to breathe like you said and relax. Let some of the little things slide off your shoulders and work on 2 or 3 things that are especially worrisome. Get a behaviorist or your really good trainer to help you if you think you could use it. I think you guys are doing super. I've never seen someone so conscientious, reading, learning, practicing things. It's all good. But don't let it over whelm you. Roll with some of this. But do keep up your good practice with the trading and stuff. I think Peggy is a very sensitive little gal, still coming into her own. Yes, some dogs have stronger temperaments and never cause any worry that way. My poodles never guarded anything with me, but they do with each other from time to time. I don't do anything much. I just tell them to pipe down, they're raising my blood pressure. lol. So anyhow, this was the only time she did this so just keep up with the practicing and re-gaining your husband's trust. He probably gave her quite the spook that scary time. But you do mention that she has shown some of that body language that shows guarding...the wall eyes, the stiffening up and hunching over her stuff. This tells me she needs to not have any high value stuff for a while, needs more trading games...fun games. Work on the retrieve more and vary the items she brings to you, starting with lower value stuff, working up and in kind, raising the value of the thing you're trading. Keep working on brain work too. And don't worry too much while at the same time addressing it.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

You're going to cringe, PB, but I'm actually a fan of some of Cesar's teachings. I think he brought an important message into the mainstream, which is that dogs are neither our babies nor our security blankets. The timing of his first book couldn't have been better either, as it coincided with me bringing home my very small dog who I would have treated much differently if not for him. 

I feel like I owe a lot to him.

But, outdated philosophies aside, I believe the worst part of Cesar's methods is the way they've been bastardized by people who truly don't have a clue—who haven't read his books (let alone any other books on behaviour), who watch one episode of his show, and think a TSSTTTTTT and a leash pop are the secret to a well-balanced companion.

Ack.

I've had people literally TAKE THE LEASH FROM MY HANDS and try this method on my dogs. Clearly I need to work on my calm assertive energy.....but not in my dealings with dogs. In my dealings with random folks on the street!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Robin, I missed that last post of yours when I wrote my most recent.
> I think you're very, very insightful and all of you in your little family are going to mellow right out here soon. Having a new dog, especially a puppy is a big adjustment. There are things to worry about. I just want you to try to breathe like you said and relax. Let some of the little things slide off your shoulders and work on 2 or 3 things that are especially worrisome. Get a behaviorist or your really good trainer to help you if you think you could use it. I think you guys are doing super. I've never seen someone so conscientious, reading, learning, practicing things. It's all good. But don't let it over whelm you. Roll with some of this. But do keep up your good practice with the trading and stuff. I think Peggy is a very sensitive little gal, still coming into her own. Yes, some dogs have stronger temperaments and never cause any worry that way. My poodles never guarded anything with me, but they do with each other from time to time. I don't do anything much. I just tell them to pipe down, they're raising my blood pressure. lol. So anyhow, this was the only time she did this so just keep up with the practicing and re-gaining your husband's trust. He probably gave her quite the spook that scary time. But you do mention that she has shown some of that body language that shows guarding...the wall eyes, the stiffening up and hunching over her stuff. This tells me she needs to not have any high value stuff for a while, needs more trading games...fun games. Work on the retrieve more and vary the items she brings to you, starting with lower value stuff, working up and in kind, raising the value of the thing you're trading. Keep working on brain work too. And don't worry too much while at the same time addressing it.


Saving this for future reference! THANK YOU!

It's a balancing act, isn't it? My favourite thing about our trainer is her energy. She knows more about dogs than I ever will, and she's seen some truly awful things, and yet she's so CALM. And you should see her handle Peggy! She loves using her for demos in class.

It actually reminds me of when I'd be having a bad ride on a "difficult" horse and would really start to believe it was the horse that was hopeless. And then my instructor would take a turn and it was the closest thing I've seen to magic in this life. Reminds me of all the untapped potential not only in animals but in us.

Hugs to you, PB. Hope you're having a lovely holiday season.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I hope you have a merry Christmas too and all the best in the coming year.

?Yep...to tell the truth, I do cringe at the thought of anyone emulating Cesar Milan in how he treats dogs. You can do your own browsing around online if you want and see what the top behaviorists with advanced degrees in applied animal behavior think about the harm he has done. If you use his intimidating techniques based on absolutely zero credentials, you may cause aggression and fear in your dog. His little cliches are just that...based on nonsense of pack theory and alpha schmalfa which has nothing to do with domestic dogs with their humans.


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