# Parti's as a separate variety



## tintlet

I doubt if AKC would want to add more varietys, plus PCA would still have to approve the change.

And the partis can't be registered as a different breed. They are already AKC poodles


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## Jeremy

Does PCA have veto power over all things Poodle?

I'm sure there are precedents of breeds being split...Poodles which were divided into Standard and Miniature in the early days, Belgian Shepherds into the four varieties/breeds...I think a separate Parti-bred register would be great overall.


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## faerie

instead of separating them, they should just be accepted.


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## Jeremy

With all respect, that would be a disaster for those who breed and love the Poodle in solid color and have no great love for the Parti's. I think maybe its like German Shepherd Breeders with white Shepherds?


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## faerie

well those who love solid poodles can continue to own, breed and love etc solid colored ones and those who love the parti colored ones can continue ... so what's so wrong with that?

that's my opinion, but i'm not about the politics in the poodle world. 

i just think that would help parti colored poodles be bred more for conformation and standards and make it less of an uphill battle that quality parti breeders like tintlet have to face.


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## Jeremy

To breed a Parti-Color, for those who breed Solids, is akin to breeding a dog affected with SA or Addisons or any other highly undesirable trait. To maintain them in the same registry guarantees that sooner or later Parti's will begin popping up more and more frequently in solid lines. So then, when it comes to carrying on your line, not only do you have to worry about health issues, not only do you have to worry about temperament, not only do you have to worry about conformation, but you also have to breed away from Parti's. When the time comes to taking a POL, you immediately have to exclude the Parti pups, which could be especially disastrous for Min and Toy breeders with significantly smaller litters. It only takes one big Champion winner with a Parti gene to introduce that gene back into every major bloodline within a generation or so. 

Separating registries would allow Parti fanciers to continue and compete their dogs against each other but without imposing their choice upon the rest (which is the inevitable consequence of keeping the two on the same registry).


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## faerie

i get it, but i don't. i mean wouldn't one check a pedigree way back to see if there is parti in there like folks do now to see if say brown is in there when they don't wnt brown or whatever?

i have no dogs in this fight. i just think it's a shame that since they aren't allowed to be shown in akc or others because they are not *solid* color ... who decided that and why? (i mean, in the us of a women didn't have suffrage for "legitimate" reasons til 1920 ... and when did african americans get the vote or hell sit in the front of the bus or go to same school as white kids ... etc)

i guess i'm thinking if they were accepted then it would be an opportunity for folks to better them because not only would color matter, but conformation.

but then i'd never want to be involved in the poodle world to that extent. i am also one who thinks the contintental clip to be discontinued and left the dogs be shaved down short and shown and then no hiding those flaws 

but that goes back to poodle politics. those involved in the poodle show life would nay say that too 

so my real questions are:
can't we all come together and have a poodle parti?
are we all to be divided along parti lines?
or are we to be bi parti-san?

i'm outta here. too much coffee. heh.


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## 3dogs

IMO just don't bother with AKC. Have a fantastic breed club & Rgistry that is strong in ALL aspects of working heritage, structure, health & then color. Since Non Solids will throw solids anyway, accpet them in the registry as well so the TRUE history is out there & have the "breeders" register the whole litter as individual's, I guess like Canada. Forget the AKC. I find them on the whole horrific. Yes, I am a bitter about the AKC since years ago they didn't accept MUTTS in their obediece, agility or ANY field except the CGC. Their excuse was they "are" a pure breed registry. I went on to show my "MUTTS" in the AMBOR (mutt registry for s/n dogs), UKC, ASCA, & other avenues that accepted Mutts as dogs. I got 10 titles on my mutt & am darn proud of it. My 2nd mutt I just got 2 titles but did other avenues with him like lure coursing that my other dog didn't like. NOW, the past couple of years & I don't know when but I think they were losing $$$$$ big time & so now accept MUTTS in the "Pure Breed" Registry doing obediece, agility etc.... So, I don't think I will EVER suppurt the AKC.

Non-Solids rally together, support each other for the beterment of the Poodle & the color heritage that has been wiped almost clean by those that "detest" color.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

faerie said:


> but then i'd never want to be involved in the poodle world to that extent. i am also one who thinks the contintental clip to be discontinued and left the dogs be shaved down short and shown and then no hiding those flaws
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> When it comes to the continental clip believe me it _grows_ on you...and I live in ******* country. The first dog I took out in public with a continental had a lot of people laughing but now I absolutely :adore: a sound poodle in a continental trim!
> 
> Unless you shave the poodle bald, the length of the hair will allow a good groomer to hide a lot of faults. Even one inch of hair is enough for most poodle handlers!
> 
> I think if we could get hairspray/mousse/gel banned from poodle coats we would see shorter coats in the show ring.
> 
> If you go to the Poodle History Project at Poodle History Project
> you can click around and see many different poodle coats and clips.


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## WonderPup

Jeremy said:


> To breed a Parti-Color, for those who breed Solids, is akin to breeding a dog affected with SA or Addisons or any other highly undesirable trait. To maintain them in the same registry guarantees that sooner or later Parti's will begin popping up more and more frequently in solid lines.


This is already happening, people just don't talk about it as much. I know a breeder who's done some winning with a solid colored dog that is out of two parti colored parents. She's allowing him to be used at stud as well. I doubt seriously it will have the terrible effect that you seem to be implying it will. It would not be a disaster for solid breeders to have parti's accepted. Things would go on much the way they do now. Anyone with eyes can look at other breeds where various colors are accepted and see that. *sigh* I breed a breed where any color and any pattern is accepted and I only breed solid colors or black and tan. I don't do parti and in spite of parti begin a really desirable pattern in the breed have had no trouble what so ever in keeping it out of my line and I have a MUCH smaller gene pool to work with than poodles breeders do. Like I said, look to other breeds and learn from them.


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## tintlet

Jeremy,
I understand what you are saying about undesirable characteristics. SA and AD are health issues..Parti is a color. not at all comparable. Lots of solid breeders have no issue breeding dogs that have produced SA or AD. 
Some older white breeders have pretty much kept the parti in the gene pool. they get a dog with cream spots, but it fades to all white. so it's considered a "solid". they breed white to white, etc..so the "spots" just don't appear. when you start to mix in other colors and line or inbreed, then the spots are of a noticeable color 
I remember in the late 60's seeing poodles with cream body spots. 

I think it would be great if Partis were a separate variety..and were shown in sporting clip ;-))))

Jeremy, email me for my phone #, would like to talk with you


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## zyrcona

To shed some light on the genetics involved: parti (and phantom) is recessive, which means to be parti, both your parents must either be parti or carriers of the same. Dark colours, such as black and brown, are dominant, which means you might be black or brown if only one parent is.

If you breed two partis together, you will usually get all partis. Sometimes you will get parti dogs appearing to be solids in lighter colours when the dark colour isn't passed on. If you breed two parti carriers together, you theoretically get 25% of the puppies being parti. So, if you have eight puppies, two of them would likely be parti.

Parti carriers very often have small patches of white on their bodies. Additionally, some parti dogs who don't carry any genes for dark pigments appear to be solids (they don't have the genetic instructions to tell them what to fill the darker patches with).

If you happened to breed one of these 'invisible' partis with a dark dog who carries parti, you would get 50% parti puppies maximum. If you bred two 'invisible' partis together, it's unlikely you would see any parti, as you wouldn't be introducing a dark colour.

Given this, I don't really see how having parti genes in dogs is going to 'ruin' solid breeding. Granted, more partis may start to appear in solid litters, but not in huge numbers. Breeders of solid colours can still occasionally get colours in their litter they're not trying to breed for, so this already happens. Additionally, you can use a dog in a colour you're not trying to breed to improve the colour you are by understanding genetics and pairing it with a mate with an appropriate colour background.

I find the implication that some people consider parti genes, which have no impact on the health of a dog and occur naturally in the poodle's genome, on the same level as genes that cause horrible conditions such as SA and Addison's disease really rather disturbing. I mean, if someone had the same opinion about certain colours in humans, that would be racism. :-/


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## Fluffyspoos

Cocker Spaniels are shown in three different colors

Solid Black
Parti
and ASCOB, or any solid color other than black

I think they should do this with the solids and partis with poodles as well :x


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

From what I understand, The Poodle Club of Canada is looking at including parti colouring in the standard of the breed. If this happens, partis will be able to be shown competing against their solid cousins, sooner rather than later in this country.


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## CharismaticMillie

zyrcona said:


> To shed some light on the genetics involved: parti (and phantom) is recessive, which means to be parti, both your parents must either be parti or carriers of the same. Dark colours, such as black and brown, are dominant, which means you might be black or brown if only one parent is.


Sidenote, but brown is recessive. . Both parents must carry the brown gene.


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## Dogsinstyle

This is the latest:
The Miniature Poodle Club of Ontario would like the Breed Standard Committee of The Poodle Club of Canada to consider the addition of the Multi-Coloured Poodle to the Poodle Breed Standard in Canada. We would like to suggest that they be shown as separate Varieties with both Best of Breed winners proceeding to their respective Group level judging.
For example; in the Toy Group you could then have a possible two Toy Poodles competing in the Group – the Toy Poodle (solid-coloured) and the Toy Poodle (multi-coloured).
Reasons for this suggestion are described below.
Historically the parti colour was common in Poodles. It wasn't until around the turn of the Twentieth Century that for some unknown reason Poodle clubs disqualified the parti colour. However,
As evidenced by numerous paintings and drawings from the 1700s and 1800's, as well as historical　documentation in Emily Cain's Poodle History Project, the parti colour was once common in Poodles; however, sometime around the turn of the 20th century, Poodle clubs in England and the United States chose to prohibit all but solid-coloured Poodles in the conformation ring. As there is no written rationale given for this decree, it is reasonable to believe that it was done simply at the whim of those in power at the time.
Many of the oldest drawings of the foundations of the poodle picture dogs that are black and white or black and tan. The move away from this colour may have started as the poodle gained popularity with the French upper class. It was in France where the extreme fashion clips first became popular- and the shaved skin and pom-poms didn't look as good on a two-coloured dog as on a solid one - thus the preference for solid coloured dogs.
Parti Patterned Poodles were shown in Conformation in England up until around 1950. Pressure to "Disqualify" these dogs from conformation shows around the world was finally passed and the "fear" of the parti was to become like a plague. Breeders who found these dogs in their litters were culling them (killing them) and never breathing a word that these dogs were showing up in their litters. This has driven the parti pattern to near extinction, though AKC and other Worldwide registries have always allowed these patterns to be used in breeding programs
There does not seem to be any health risks associated with the patterns, other than the lines themselves being so closely related to cause inbreeding health issues. They do not suffer from Deafness as Dalmatians and other spotted breeds do, so producing and trying to help this pattern to reestablish will not harm the breed.
Multi-coloured Poodles are currently experiencing a strong comeback in the United States and can be shown in conformation classes in the United Kennel Club. They are judged under the exact same standard as Solid poodles, with only the pattern to determine which class/variety they are to show in.
Partis can also be registered with the American Kennel Club and shown in all classes except conformation. Currently in the United States there is a resurgence of the parti colour. Using the Internet, people in locations around the country have come together for a common cause, and in February 2002 formed the Multi-Colored Poodle Club of America (a not-for-profit organization). Their first Specialty was held on June 17, 2006 in conjunction with the United Kennel Club's 12th Annual Premier show.
In 2003　the United Kennel Club, which has been registering Poodles since 1914, after reviewing a great deal of evidence attesting to the presence of purebred multi-coloured Poodles throughout history, revised the Poodle　 breed standard to eliminate the disqualification for multi-coloured dogs. The UKC breed standard now places solid-coloured and multi-coloured Poodles on equal footing, not as separate breeds or different varieties, but as one breed.
Verband für das Deutsche Hundewesen (VDH), Germany’s Kennel Club, has also accepted the parti-coloured Poodle for national recognition. Black and white partis and phantom patterned Poodles can be shown at National and International levels as of October 2008. They can compete for German Champion Titles given by VDH, whereas in the past they could only compete in special parti-only club classes.
Partis and phantoms will still not be able to compete for the CACIB title because they are not recognized by the FCI (Federation Cynologique Internationale). Hopefully that will be the next step.
While the VDH has chosen to go this route, the Kennel Club of the Netherlands has voted not to register any multi-coloured Poodles; furthermore, papers on parti-coloured Poodles currently registered have been revoked. This is most certainly a very big setback for multi-coloured Poodles. The Czech Republic, however, allows multi-coloured Poodles to show in their country.
In France, an Association was formed in the spring of 2008 with the purpose of working towards the recognition of Bi-Coloured Poodles in that country. They are currently gaining support in their endeavour.
Currrent knowledge of the available colour patterns are below.
The Harlekin
The Harlekin is Black and white, comprised of white with black markings. The markings are well defined with a pleasant pattern and should cover approximately forty percent of the body. The Harlekin is genetically pure for the colour, and therefore the entire litter will be Harlekin. While a small amount of black speckling or ticking is allowed it is undesirable.
The Parti
The Parti can be a combination of almost any colour. Black and White, Silver and White, Blue and White, Brown and White etc.. The markings tend to be haphazard and can vary greatly. American Parti's do not breed true　 the gene is recessive and has been diluted, so it is impossible to reproduce the colour with any consistency
Black and Tan
The Black and Tan is comprised of a black body with tan eyebrows; the area around the eyes is black with tan running out the muzzle and down the chest a way. Tan will also be found on the lower part of the legs and below the base of the tail. Like the Harlekin the Black and Tan is genetically pure for the colour, and therefore the entire litter will be Black and Tan. A picture of a Black and Tan was not available but if you look at the picture of the Phantom the markings would be the same.
Phantom
The Phantom markings should be the same as a Black and Tan, The difference being in the colours. The colours may be black and silver, blue and silver etc.
　
We have included the applicable section of the United Kennel Club Poodle Standard is included below.
Please Note: For Conformation exhibition purposes only, the solid-coloured dogs and multi-coloured dogs are shown separately. They are not actually separate breeds.
COLOUR
Coat colours in Multi-Coloured Poodles include the following: Apricot, black, blue, cream, gray, silver, white, red, silver beige and all shades of brown, including café-au-lait. Also acceptable is a fine streaked or striped effect or pattern of black or tan hairs in combination with these colours. Dogs whose coats include the brown shades may have dark amber eyes; liver noses, eye rims and lips; and dark nails. Dogs with apricot coat colour may have this combination of eye, pigment and nail colour as well but it is not desirable. All others must have very dark eyes; black noses, eye rims and lips; and black or self-coloured nails.
These colours (and combinations of colours) must appear in one of the following patterns:
● Parti-coloured: At least fifty percent white, with spots or patches of any other acceptable solid colour. The head can be of a solid colour but white muzzle, blaze, or white muzzle/blaze combination (preferably symmetrical) is equally acceptable. Full or partial saddles are acceptable, as long as they do not exceed the colour proportion, but are not preferred. Ticking in the white of the coat is acceptable but not preferred.
● Phantom: Solid base colour with sharply defined markings of a second colour appearing above each eye, on the sides of the muzzle, on the throat and forechest, or in a chin and forechest bowtie pattern as well as on all four legs and feet, and below the tail. A phantom without clearly defined face markings or one that presents with its whole face coloured in the second colour is acceptable, as long as it maintains all the other specified body markings. Any combination of acceptable colours is allowed.
● Abstract: Less than fifty percent white, with the remaining percent any other acceptable solid colour.
Sable: A coat represented by black-tipped hairs on a background of any solid colour, with no particular pattern/location designated for such hairs.
● Multi-patterned: A dog that clearly exhibits more than one of the acceptable colour patterns, such as; a Parti with full or incomplete phantom markings (facial markings with or without presentation of the diamond under the tail), or a Phantom with additional abstract markings, etc.
Disqualification: Any colour or colour pattern other than described above; albinism.


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## Bobby Bear

We should be working together to better the breed,i.e producing healthy dogs,with good tempermants and sound confirmation.Why should colour be so important?
All colours,solids and non solids should be judged equally.


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## outwest

I have a whippet. Color is not to be judged and is not important. You get all kinds of colors and varieties from solid white to brindle to washed out colors to red spots. No such thing as a mismark in whippets. 

Why is it such a big deal in other breeds? It is JUST a color for goodness sake and has nothing to do with preformance, personality, conformation or anything else. It's silly. Unless you have something like an Irish Setter, that is meant to be one specific color, who gives a hoot what color they are. It annoys me that the only standards in AKC are black and white. There are a few stoic souls who show other colors, but very few. It's ridiculous.


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## zyrcona

ChocolateMillie said:


> Sidenote, but brown is recessive. . Both parents must carry the brown gene.


Interesting. I assumed it was dominant as people will often breed black to brown and have black and brown puppies in the litter, and that was why breeding brown to colours other than black and brown was a bad idea (because of the risk of getting pale puppies with brown points). Presumably brown breeders have to research the genetic background of any blacks they use carefully, so as to make sure there's no risk of getting white or apricot puppies.

Dogsinstyle: great that Canada are thinking of permitting more colours. The text in the article is somewhat suspect, particularly in regard to genetics in terms of nonscientific language. I'm not sure what it's implying by 'breeds pure'. Phantom and parti are both recessive so you can predict and reproduce them if you know the genetic history of the stock you're using.

Anyway, Germany permits multicoloured poodles to be shown, and that's where they're generally agreed to have originated from, so I think Germany's rules should set the standard.


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## Dogsinstyle

Choc Millie is right, brown is recessive- breed 2 browns and you get an all brown litter. If you get browns from a black to brown litter, you know the black carries for brown.
Carole


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## Sapphire-Light

Fluffyspoos said:


> Cocker Spaniels are shown in three different colors
> 
> Solid Black
> Parti
> and ASCOB, or any solid color other than black
> 
> I think they should do this with the solids and partis with poodles as well :x


I agree, making something like the cockers will be the good. :angel2:

I image 3 categories in: solid, partis and phantoms.

In cockers also is not allowed to breed between the 3 variaties, this helps to keep solids in the people who wants only solids in thier lines.


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## Jeremy

Bobby Bear said:


> We should be working together to better the breed,i.e producing healthy dogs,with good tempermants and sound confirmation.Why should colour be so important?
> All colours,solids and non solids should be judged equally.


Why should bites be so unimportant? All the poor undershot dogs excluded from breeding programmes?

(...)

At the end of the day, breed standards and dog showing is in many ways whimsical. Dogs aren't humans, they're livestock, and as all domesticated animals humans propagate what is desirable and do not what is undesirable. I get that people are favorable to the "restoration", so to speak, of the parti, but I think it's unreasonable to impose that upon breeders of solids and the solid gene pool. Hence my suggestion of having separate registers where breeders would easily be able to track "cross-breeding" and a dog's heritage one way or another.


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## Jeremy

3dogs said:


> Non-Solids rally together, support each other for the beterment of the Poodle & the color heritage that has been wiped almost clean by those that "detest" color.


The color heritage hasn't been "wiped clean" by those that detest color. I think it's fair to say that all American standard poodles descend (for example) from CH Nunsoe Duc de la Terrace, who produced various parti offspring, and even from some of his parti offspring. Likewise, many Miniatures would descend from the Blakeens who came down from an apricot bitch with blue ears and from Snow Boy who's litter brother was a parti. The genetic heritage was preserved, what wasn't preserved were the spotted coloring which was laid aside, bred out/forgotten about.



tintlet said:


> Jeremy,
> I understand what you are saying about undesirable characteristics. SA and AD are health issues..Parti is a color. not at all comparable. Lots of solid breeders have no issue breeding dogs that have produced SA or AD.
> Some older white breeders have pretty much kept the parti in the gene pool. they get a dog with cream spots, but it fades to all white. so it's considered a "solid". they breed white to white, etc..so the "spots" just don't appear. when you start to mix in other colors and line or inbreed, then the spots are of a noticeable color
> I remember in the late 60's seeing poodles with cream body spots.
> 
> I think it would be great if Partis were a separate variety..and were shown in sporting clip ;-))))


I'm not saying a parti and an Addisonian are comparable, but I think it's fair to say that for many breeders of solids to have a parti puppy pop up would be as tragic/shocking/catastrophic as having a health problem. Hence why most solid breeders who DO get parti pups from time to time drown them or cull them. 

I think many silver breeders have also inadvertently propagated parti genes by using silver-white/silver-cream phantoms that come through from time to time. I've also seen two red-white parti miniatures from a line of pure red/apricot breeding for generations, and recently saw a litter that would be "nephew" to those two with a red pup with a white chest. I also know of an apricot miniature stud dog who threw a number of partis and something of a brindle/multi-colored pup. 

Either way...I think in an ideal world these puppies would be registered in a separate registry, with pedigree records making clear their existence and pedigree, allowing the CHOICE for other breeders to want that in their lines or not.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Jeremy said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying a parti and an Addisonian are comparable, but I think it's fair to say that for many breeders of solids to have a parti puppy pop up would be as tragic/shocking/catastrophic as having a health problem. Hence why most solid breeders who DO get parti pups from time to time drown them or cull them.
> 
> Either way...I think in an ideal world these puppies would be registered in a separate registry, with pedigree records making clear their existence and pedigree, allowing the CHOICE for other breeders to want that in their lines or not.


Hi Jeremy;
I *agree* you should not *compare* a *HEALTH* issue with a *colour* issue. 

Breeding a poodle that comes down with a *life-threatening disease* such as Addison Disease is much more upsetting for a breeder and the owner of the poodle than breeding a non-solid coat colour. Coat colour is far *down* on the list of what to breed for. Temperament and health should always come first. 

I think the old parti-colour pictures I have seen with symmetrical markings are much prettier than the spotted poodles I seen today but I *hope* poodle breeders concentrate on genetic health problems and health testing before they worry about colour.

Many who are breeding parti-coloured/mismarked poodles in Canada are just using the colour as a *marketing* gimmick to sell more puppies not because they want to better the breed. IMHO the term parti-colours fits right up there with teacup, royal and giant poodles!

Any breeder who breeds enough litters will have bred a parti-coloured/mismarked puppy. Most often they have white on toes and/or chest. A reputable breeder will tell the puppy buyers this is a mismark and against the Canadian *breed *standard. Often the mismark will go away when the puppy changes to adult coat. 

I do not know *any Canadian breeders* who would drown or otherwise kill a parti-coloured/mismarked poodle puppy. Ethical breeders would cull the puppy by *placing* it as a *pet* and making sure it could not reproduce. 

I do not understand why anyone wants particoloured poodles to have a different registry or expect them to be judged separately. In Canada the breed standard needs to be changed to allow non-solids to be shown naturally...(some are already shown dyed, but that is another kettle of fish). 

If parti-coloured/mismarked poodles are good enough to be shown they should be good enough to compete with solids.


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## Jeremy

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Hi Jeremy;
> I *agree* you should not *compare* a *HEALTH* issue with a *colour* issue.
> 
> Breeding a poodle that comes down with a *life-threatening disease* such as Addison Disease is much more upsetting for a breeder and the owner of the poodle than breeding a non-solid coat colour. Coat colour is far *down* on the list of what to breed for. Temperament and health should always come first.
> 
> I think the old parti-colour pictures I have seen with symmetrical markings are much prettier than the spotted poodles I seen today but I *hope* poodle breeders concentrate on genetic health problems and health testing before they worry about colour.
> 
> Many who are breeding parti-coloured/mismarked poodles in Canada are just using the colour as a *marketing* gimmick to sell more puppies not because they want to better the breed. IMHO the term parti-colours fits right up there with teacup, royal and giant poodles!
> 
> Any breeder who breeds enough litters will have bred a parti-coloured/mismarked puppy. Most often they have white on toes and/or chest. A reputable breeder will tell the puppy buyers this is a mismark and against the Canadian *breed *standard. Often the mismark will go away when the puppy changes to adult coat.
> 
> I do not know *any Canadian breeders* who would drown or otherwise kill a parti-coloured/mismarked poodle puppy. Ethical breeders would cull the puppy by *placing* it as a *pet* and making sure it could not reproduce.
> 
> I do not understand why anyone wants particoloured poodles to have a different registry or expect them to be judged separately. In Canada the breed standard needs to be changed to allow non-solids to be shown naturally...(some are already shown dyed, but that is another kettle of fish).
> 
> If parti-coloured/mismarked poodles are good enough to be shown they should be good enough to compete with solids.


Hi Rayah,

Jean Lyle (Wycliffe) is often held up as an example of an "omg so awesome" breeder and is known to have actively culled cream puppies in her pursuit of jet black Standards. Incidentally she is also Canadian. Unfortunately (because it is a terrible terrible practice) I'm certain there are still others who do the same. 

No doubt the issue of health and color are completely incomparable, my point is just how tragic having a parti would be for a solid breeder. (Very tragic). I don't see why parti's feel the need to IMPOSE upon all others - yes, legalize it, let them be shown, let them breed, but respect the majority of others who don't want that sharing the gene pool. Similar perhaps to the Pomeranian and German Spitz and how some people wanted to re-create/restore the "Victorian" Pom, but they ended up with separate registries (although with Parti and Solid Poodles I think inter-breeding should still be allowed for genetic diversity).

People have cited Germany as the origin of parti's, where they can be bred and shown. Germany also has very strict breeding rules, even as to what colors can be mixed; more often than not they'll breed like color to like color. That kind of control over breeder's breedings and dealings is unrealistic in the UK and USA, hence the suggestion of separate registries which would achieve the same goal but allow greater freedom for parti breeders wanting to breed to solids.


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## tintlet

I don't think many solid breeders would be devastated to see a mismark or parti in a litter. this day and age they just know that both parents carry for that and breed accordingly. There is a DNA test for "spotting/piebald" at HealthGene in Canada 

I had thought that it would be nice to have partis shown as a variety. Or maybe more like splitting the Open classes to Solid and AOAC ( any other allowed color..can you tell I used to show shelties..lol). But after further thought...let them compete with the solids.

We live in a changing world


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## WestCoastSpoo

As a PET buyer, I would LOVE partis to be an accepted color if just for the fact that I believe it would become MUCH easier to find reputable breeders of partis who health test fully, etc. As it is there are some wonderful, responsible parti breeders, but they really are few and far between! I wasn't a big fan of partis before, but part of the reason was because they aren't an accepted color and so I thought all of them must just be horrible examples of the breed. When in fact they are all poodles underneath and coats are really just the icing on a beautifully baked cake  And anyway now partis have grown on me and I really do think they are beautiful!


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## A'n'A Mom

Jeremy said:


> Hi Rayah,
> 
> Jean Lyle (Wycliffe) is often held up as an example of an "omg so awesome" breeder and is known to have actively culled cream puppies in her pursuit of jet black Standards. Incidentally she is also Canadian. Unfortunately (because it is a terrible terrible practice) I'm certain there are still others who do the same.


Jeremy,

Jean Lyle bred Standard Poodles from 1952 until the late 1980's. She has been dead for almost 30 years, I think. How she did things then is ancient history.

There were lots of things that were done differently in the 1950's and 1960's. Geneticists then recommended inbreeding that make the present scientific community gasp in horror. I have heard that breeders in the past would "bucket" unwanted or sick whelps--something that is completely unacceptable to our mores today and probably illegal in a number of places. So, to compare what was done 50 years ago and jump to the conclusion that Canadian Poodle breeders today are doing the same things, is a really weak argument, imo.


----------



## spoospirit

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> I do not know *any Canadian breeders* who would drown or otherwise kill a parti-coloured/mismarked poodle puppy. Ethical breeders would cull the puppy by *placing* it as a *pet* and making sure it could not reproduce.


_I am aware that this was a common practice at one time. I abhor the idea that this would still be happening on a wide spread basis and would really question that it is.

I would never even think of culling a parti or mismarked puppy from one of our breedings if one were to show up. That puppy is as much entitled to a good, loving home as any other is. We would see to it that it was placed in a very loving pet home. 

I don't see producing one of these puppies as something that I should be horrified by. It is always a possibility. The puppy is not somehow 'at fault' for being born a puppy of color and is in no way deserving of being punished for being so.

I am horrified at knowing that this was a common practice at one time and is still happening on a much smaller basis now. I have to ask myself what type of person would drown new born puppies because they were/are afraid that their reputation will be tarnished if the news got out to the public that they produced this totally unacceptable colored, but quite innocent puppy. Bah!

I don't usually get involved with party threads as we do not breed them and I don't feel I have much to contribute to them. However, I see some good things here from both sides. I don't know which way would be the best way to handle having the parti colors accepted by AKC, but I would like to see them recognized somehow. And, I do believe that this would give breeders of parti's a much better opportunity to breed to the PCA standards and produce some stunning poodles of color such as Tintlet does. Just my humble opinion._


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> ...and I live in ******* country.


I’d rather jump barefoot off a 6-foot step ladder into a
5 gallon bucket full of porcupines than walk a SPOO with a Conti-clip in ******* country.












Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> I think if we could get hairspray/mousse/gel banned from poodle coats we would see shorter coats in the show ring.


You left out the hair coloring for covering up those mismarks...


----------



## tintlet

Now we live in sort of red neck country...my hubby is proud of his nekkid butted poodles. Only thing he is waiting until Madonna get's her GrCh..then she get her puffs dyed PINK!!!


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Jeremy said:


> As everyone knows, there is alot of discussion and debate regarding Parti-colored Poodles. They have their fans and advocates *and also the solid color breeders who are terrified of Parti's becoming popular and entering the gene pool in a big, inespecable way* (it only takes one or two big winnners with a parti granddam or great-grandsire or whatever to turn it into a huge widespread issue noone can avoid).
> 
> I was thinking what if Kennel Clubs would recognise the Parti-Color _*as a separate variety?*_
> 
> *Shown in their own ring,* with their own Points/CCs/CACs etc. and then competing with the rest of the Poodles in the Group ring.
> 
> *Having their own separate registry,* _but allowing for inter-breeding: ie, a Parti could breed to a Solid, the issue being *registered in the Parti registry regardless of color*._ (Registries separated not just by the color of the dog but by its color breeding).
> 
> Do you guys think such a proposal would be at all viable?


I think I'm going to take a pretty big chance here by commenting on this. (IE: The ever present "Ban" button.)

When I read your first post in this thread when you started it, I had a really uncomfortable feeling about it. I was wondering if you were serious about this, or making some sort of joke, hoping others would pick up on it. But I'm concerned enough about it that I really feel I need to say something. 

First of all, we are talking about POODLES. For the sake of discussion let's isolate it to one size and say STANDARD POODLES. Full stop. They are a specific BREED of purebred dog. They come in many different colors including parti-colored. 

And, based on your posts later in the thread, you clearly know the background of the breed well, that Parti's go further back than just the last 50-100 years, and that they didn't "start" with Vulcan Kennel. 

So, Parti's were *very *common in the past and solid color breeders tried to get rid of them. Your words: * "Hence why most solid breeders who DO get parti pups from time to time drown them or cull them. " 

*Regardless of the color, a Standard Poodle is still a Standard Poodle. No color carries increased risks of diseases or tendencies towards any particular problems. (Unless the COI gets too high from inbreeding.) Aside from the one trait, the external color of the dog, there is no difference between any of them. 

So, I look at the comments above like: * the solid color breeders who are terrified of Parti's becoming popular and entering the gene pool in a big, inespecable way* and,_* recognise the Parti-Color *__*as a separate variety?*_ and *Shown in their own ring,* and *Having their own separate registry,* _but *allowing for inter-breeding*: ie, a Parti could breed to a Solid, *the issue being registered in the Parti registry regardless of color.*_

Where exactly are you going with this and what is your specific issue with Parti color poodles? I read your comments and feel like adding: _Maybe we can have special places to sit for people taking Parti-Poodles on a bus? Like at the back._ Or maybe _if someone takes their Parti-poodle into a restaurant they could have a separate section for them to sit, away from anyone that might have solid color poodles_. And of course, _if they inter-breed, they would always have to be treated as PARTI Poodles, regardless of the color of the offspring, even if they *are *solid color._ 

I'm sorry if I offend anyone but this seriously, is how I am seeing Jeremy's suggestions. 

I don't see this as a beneficial suggestion designed to get Parti's into the AKC or any other club with full status. It is clearly designed to have them treated as a fully segregated breed within the AKC. Even further, we would keep a completely separate registry for "those" Parti-color dogs so we could decide whether or not we want to have any contamination of a "superior?" gene pool? 



Jeremy said:


> *I think it's fair to say that for many breeders of solids to have a parti puppy pop up would be as tragic/shocking/catastrophic as having a health problem.*


Tragic?? Shocking?? *Catastrophic??? *These words used in this context, concern me. A lot. 



Jeremy said:


> *I think in an ideal world these puppies would be registered in a separate registry, with pedigree records making clear their existence and pedigree, allowing the CHOICE for other breeders to want that in their lines or not.*


 Well, *I* think in an ideal world..... (Discretion being the better part of valor, forbids me adding something here. But it would be all too easy to put something revolting.)



I'd really like to know how everyone else here feels about this and the logical conclusion of Jeremy's ideal world. 


:ahhhhh:


----------



## Countryboy

Tessa's Dad said:


> I'd really like to know how everyone else here feels about this and the logical conclusion of Jeremy's ideal world.


Not meeee! :angel2: ...


----------



## 3dogs

On the note of "Killing Off" the unwanted or a nicer term "cull" Poodles are not the only breed ever effected by this practice. By gosh the "white" Boxers have been Killed off for years, "white" GSD as well. These days it is more acceptable with these two breeds to accept the "white" instead of killing them off. I am sure there are other breeds as well but these two come to the top of my head because I have had discussion with breeders on the "white" of their particualr breed.

Also, just to go slightly off Poodles but still into "culling" or "killing" off the unwanted it is a wide known in the world of rabbits. It is done a GREAT deal in the "show" rabbits. Go read any breed that shows their rabbits & they will state they often "cull" off the non showables. I specifically refer to Lionhead rabbits since I have 1 & have done a good deal of show research. Flemish Giant I also have & to a lesser extent but it is there. So, even today human beings can easily toss an innocent creature that THEY purposely breed & kill it off without hesitation. A bit sickening in my opinion.


----------



## spoospirit

Tessa's Dad said:


> I think I'm going to take a pretty big chance here by commenting on this. (IE: The ever present "Ban" button.)
> 
> When I read your first post in this thread when you started it, I had a really uncomfortable feeling about it. I was wondering if you were serious about this, or making some sort of joke, hoping others would pick up on it. But I'm concerned enough about it that I really feel I need to say something.
> 
> First of all, we are talking about POODLES. For the sake of discussion let's isolate it to one size and say STANDARD POODLES. Full stop. They are a specific BREED of purebred dog. They come in many different colors including parti-colored.
> 
> And, based on your posts later in the thread, you clearly know the background of the breed well, that Parti's go further back than just the last 50-100 years, and that they didn't "start" with Vulcan Kennel.
> 
> So, Parti's were *very *common in the past and solid color breeders tried to get rid of them. Your words: * "Hence why most solid breeders who DO get parti pups from time to time drown them or cull them. "
> 
> *Regardless of the color, a Standard Poodle is still a Standard Poodle. No color carries increased risks of diseases or tendencies towards any particular problems. (Unless the COI gets too high from inbreeding.) Aside from the one trait, the external color of the dog, there is no difference between any of them.
> 
> So, I look at the comments above like: * the solid color breeders who are terrified of Parti's becoming popular and entering the gene pool in a big, inespecable way* and,_* recognise the Parti-Color *__*as a separate variety?*_ and *Shown in their own ring,* and *Having their own separate registry,* _but *allowing for inter-breeding*: ie, a Parti could breed to a Solid, *the issue being registered in the Parti registry regardless of color.*_
> 
> Where exactly are you going with this and what is your specific issue with Parti color poodles? I read your comments and feel like adding: _Maybe we can have special places to sit for people taking Parti-Poodles on a bus? Like at the back._ Or maybe _if someone takes their Parti-poodle into a restaurant they could have a separate section for them to sit, away from anyone that might have solid color poodles_. And of course, _if they inter-breed, they would always have to be treated as PARTI Poodles, regardless of the color of the offspring, even if they *are *solid color._
> 
> I'm sorry if I offend anyone but this seriously, is how I am seeing Jeremy's suggestions.
> 
> I don't see this as a beneficial suggestion designed to get Parti's into the AKC or any other club with full status. It is clearly designed to have them treated as a fully segregated breed within the AKC. Even further, we would keep a completely separate registry for "those" Parti-color dogs so we could decide whether or not we want to have any contamination of a "superior?" gene pool?
> 
> 
> 
> Tragic?? Shocking?? *Catastrophic??? *These words used in this context, concern me. A lot.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, *I* think in an ideal world..... (Discretion being the better part of valor, forbids me adding something here. But it would be all too easy to put something revolting.)
> 
> 
> 
> I'd really like to know how everyone else here feels about this and the logical conclusion of Jeremy's ideal world.
> 
> 
> :ahhhhh:


_As I stated in another post, I am not a prati breeder and don't know as much as I probably should about them.

I do agree that there were certainly some poor choices of words/expressions in Jeremy's posts in trying to get his point across. I won't judge as to whether he had intentions to stir something up or not. And, I don't agree with all that he said. However, I would like to see parti's being accepted into the conformation ring in AKC. 

I have no idea how or if this can be brought to fruition. I am sure that parti breeders would have to unite to work on this if they have not already. 

I don't see parti's as a pollution to the solid breeder's pool. I am sure that it would require a lot more attention from solid breeders when choosing dogs and bitches for breeding though. 

I still remain open minded on this subject as I just don't know enough about it._


----------



## Liafast

The UKC considers parti a seperate breed for conformation. I have a spoo that I purchased and when I was bathing him I realized that he is a cream/white parti. I am fine with that, I show in UKC and when I put him in a contiental I may have to switch his color to a parti. Reguardless of their colors they are still poodles and thats whats important to me.
If we want to get into AKC gripes..why are all sizes of poodles consider 1 breed. I mean you could breed a standard and a toy and still have AKC registered poodles.
BTW in the UKC toys and minis are in one group and spoo are in the gun dog group (IMO is where they belong)


----------



## spoospirit

Liafast said:


> The UKC considers parti a seperate breed for conformation. I have a spoo that I purchased and when I was bathing him I realized that he is a cream/white parti. I am fine with that, I show in UKC and when I put him in a contiental I may have to switch his color to a parti. Reguardless of their colors they are still poodles and thats whats important to me.
> If we want to get into AKC gripes..why are all sizes of poodles consider 1 breed. I mean you could breed a standard and a toy and still have AKC registered poodles.
> BTW in the UKC toys and minis are in one group and spoo are in the gun dog group (IMO is where they belong)


_I agree with you that the Standard Poodle should not have been changed from the sporting dog group to the non-sporting dog group in AKC. That rather irritates me, and I think it helps add to the whole big hair, froo froo image that they have now. I don't like it. I would like to see it change.

Sorry to go off topic. This won't help the parti poodles._


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## stealthq

Personally, I think the AKC standard should be modified to allow parti poodles. I don't see any real issue with having parti poodles shown in separate classes (like ASCOB cockers, etc.) as others have already mentioned, though I think it somewhat defeats the purpose of using dog shows to rate quality. For example, best solid might only be as good as the 5th best parti, but according to show ratings be the 2nd best in breed if solid and parti are separated.

Something to consider - one issue that is coming up with all the popular purebred dogs is a genetic bottleneck. Should poodle breeders really want to make that bottleneck even tighter by excluding dogs based on nothing more than color?


----------



## Jessie's Mom

i don't want to hijack the thread either, but after reading all this i have a question: what about phantoms? i'm new to poodles (jessie 2.5 years) and am still learning from all those who share their knowledge. so enlighten me: are phantoms treated the same way? and if so, why? and why is it that color has become such an essential thing. i, for one, have seen some solid colored standards who's colors are not so nice (i.e., grizzly hair) and i have seen some partis who's uniform markings make them outstanding looking. if i had to choose between the two, i would choose the parti with the good coloring and nice coat. 

just my opinion...


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## Liafast

All solid color poodles are in one "breed" and all other colors are considered another "breed" including abstracts, phamtoms and dogs with mulitiple paterns. This is according to UKC. This is the link for mulit-colored spoos.......

United Kennel Club: Multi-Colored Standard Poodle (Revised January 1, 2010)


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## tintlet

MC and solids are not different "breeds" in UKC...they are separated only for conformation shows.

from UKC website:
"Please Note: For Conformation exhibition purposes only, the solid-colored dogs and multi-colored dogs are shown separately. They are not actually separate breeds."


----------



## Tessa's Dad

tintlet said:


> MC and solids are not different "breeds" in UKC...they are separated only for conformation shows.
> 
> from UKC website:
> "Please Note: For Conformation exhibition purposes only, the solid-colored dogs and multi-colored dogs are shown separately. They are not actually separate breeds."


Further down in the description, it also states:

_The standards for the Multi-Colored Standard Poodle and the Standard Poodle are identical except for color and color patterns.
_
So by the UKC standards, the dogs are exactly the same except for the coat.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

spoospirit said:


> _I agree with you that the Standard Poodle should not have been changed from the sporting dog group to the non-sporting dog group in AKC. That rather irritates me, and I think it helps add to the whole big hair, froo froo image that they have now. I don't like it. I would like to see it change.
> 
> Sorry to go off topic. This won't help the parti poodles._


I meant to get back to this sooner but my wife hit two deer last night just north of Cooperstown and I've been busier than heck dealing with the insurance company and adjusters. 




Clarifying what I meant in reply to Jeremy's posts, I just see it that a poodle is a poodle. If it's purebred, I don't care what color it is, it's a poodle and should be accepted into the various clubs and competitions without prejudice. 

The way I see it personally, it doesn't matter what color a poodle is, and there are a lot of them, as long as it's solid color (or you can cover up a mismark with hair dye) it is welcomed into the "club" with open arms. But if it has two colors on it, it's _"Sorry. We don't allow YOUR kind in this establishment". _

The rules are terrible in my opinion for doing this. The UKC isn't too bad with at least accepting them into full standing for all showing and competition WITH OTHER PARTI's, but it still makes the Parti's a "second class citizen" in my opinion. 

We can't ignore the AKC as they are the government recognized registry for purebred dogs. This is where Jeremy's comments about a "separate registry for parti-color dogs" really put me of. The aire of superiority was clear in the comment. Basically a "lets not contaminate the pure blood lines" attitude. From where I see it, the pedigree's in the registry are pretty clear. The colors are clearly marked. If some fool wants to breed his bitch to someone else's dog and they don't look at the pedigree first, where they can easily see "oh, your boys grandmother was a black & white parti", then they take what they get from the breeding. People are worried enough about the health background on the dogs they breed with, so get just as fussy about the color background if that's how you want to be. 

But a completely separate registry????


----------



## Fond of Poodles

As to culling - look at the racing greyhound industry in the fairly recent past...

I agree that temperament and health are very important issues to consider when breeding, however we are also talking about showing aren't we? Not just having healthy and well behaved pets? We want them to be pleasing in the Conformation sense as well. In this instance colour is a factor. If you wish to compete and win, realistically your dog needs good colour. I've heard many members here comment on "ice white", beautiful pigment, inky black in positive glowing terms. On the flip side I heard the terms, faded black, poor black, poor pigment, ugly silver, etc... We DO breed for "beauty" as well as health and temperament - it's a package for those who breed for conformation. I want my blacks to be black, inky black and will breed with that in mind, in addition to health and temperament.How many of us have been "put off" by a sunburned black coat with a reddish tinge? It doesn't change the dog, but it will not do as well in some cases in the ring.

How would we deal with colour, meaning parti etc. in the ring? Would more/less of a particular colour be desirable? Would phantoms be penalized for lack of correct markings, for poor placement of markings? How would skin colour and coat colour be judged? In the whites we want nice black/grey skin, in black we want black skin.

I have no objection whatsoever to partis, I would never cull one from a litter, I fully support them as being a purebred poodle. However I do believe they should be shown separately in the Ring. Part of their "overall general appearance" is their markings and as such I think it will become a factor in how they are judged.


----------



## Tessa's Dad

Fond of Poodles said:


> As to culling - look at the racing greyhound industry in the fairly recent past...


Absolutely. And many other breeds as well. I've been around enough to see what "selective breeding" has done for purebred dogs. All in the name of "the look", "the shape" or "the conformation". Greyhounds? How about:


 Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Syringomyelia from breeding for smaller head size and shape
German Shepherd Show Dogs - Hip Dysplasia in breeding for the "Stance".
Bulldog - Severe underbite and inability for most to whelp other than by caesarian section from breeding for large head size and narrow hips
Pekingese & Pug - numerous sinus issues from breeding for "flatter" face
Chinese Shar-Pei - frequent skin infections from breeding for excessively wrinkled skin
Bloodhounds - chronic eye irritation and infections from breeding for low-slung "droopy" eyelids



Fond of Poodles said:


> I agree that temperament and health are very important issues to consider when breeding, however we are also talking about showing aren't we? Not just having healthy and well behaved pets? We want them to be pleasing in the Conformation sense as well. In this instance colour is a factor. If you wish to compete and win, realistically your dog needs good colour. I've heard many members here comment on "ice white", beautiful pigment, inky black in positive glowing terms. On the flip side I heard the terms, faded black, poor black, poor pigment, ugly silver, etc... *We DO breed for "beauty" as well as health and temperament - it's a package for those who breed for conformation.* I want my blacks to be black, inky black and will breed with that in mind, in addition to health and temperament.How many of us have been "put off" by a sunburned black coat with a reddish tinge? It doesn't change the dog, but it will not do as well in some cases in the ring.
> 
> How would we deal with colour, meaning parti etc. in the ring? Would more/less of a particular colour be desirable? Would phantoms be penalized for lack of correct markings, for poor placement of markings? How would skin colour and coat colour be judged? In the whites we want nice black/grey skin, in black we want black skin.
> 
> I have no objection whatsoever to partis, I would never cull one from a litter, I fully support them as being a purebred poodle. However I do believe they should be shown separately in the Ring. Part of their "overall general appearance" is their markings and as such I think it will become a factor in how they are judged.


I agree with you here but, I think even when separating the Parti's from the solids, you will have color issues in the ring. The rarer colors such as a good deep red, will (my opinion) have an advantage over other dogs in the ring because of that rarer color. If the groomer has done a great job, the color itself could swing votes. (Judges are going to be partial no matter what anyone thinks.)

For what it's worth, I'm not exactly a "Dog Show" kind of person.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle

Tessa's Dad said:


> Absolutely. And many other breeds as well. I've been around enough to see what "selective breeding" has done for purebred dogs. All in the name of "the look", "the shape" or "the conformation". Greyhounds? How about:
> 
> 
> Cavalier King Charles Spaniel - Syringomyelia from breeding for smaller head size and shape
> German Shepherd Show Dogs - Hip Dysplasia in breeding for the "Stance".
> Bulldog - Severe underbite and inability for most to whelp other than by caesarian section from breeding for large head size and narrow hips
> Pekingese & Pug - numerous sinus issues from breeding for "flatter" face
> Chinese Shar-Pei - frequent skin infections from breeding for excessively wrinkled skin
> Bloodhounds - chronic eye irritation and infections from breeding for low-slung "droopy" eyelids
> 
> I agree with you here but, I think even when separating the Parti's from the solids, you will have color issues in the ring. The rarer colors such as a good deep red, will (my opinion) have an advantage over other dogs in the ring because of that rarer color. If the groomer has done a great job, the color itself could swing votes. (Judges are going to be partial no matter what anyone thinks.)
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm not exactly a "Dog Show" kind of person.


Well...the good "coloured dogs" do not have an advantage in the ring. Quite the opposite. There is colour bias already, and unless the partis are shown as their own entity, their owners/breeders will feel it as well. The number of Poodles of any colour being put up over blacks and whites is very small. A good friend of mine was taxiing judges this past week for her local all breed show, and she asked if they would even look at a good red over a white or black, and she got a resounding NO. Quality is not at issue with these judges. The mere fact the dog is of colour already has the judges looking the other way.


----------



## tintlet

I'm not sure what Jeremy is really saying..or who it is ? Jeremy won't reply to my private PM. I would like to talk in person because its hard to "read" or understand when it's just written on a forum.

Personally, I really don't care if Partis are accepted by PCA....the positive side would be that more solid breeders "might" be willing to breed to partis and or parti carriers. If they are accepted in Canada, then we'll be growing show coats and looking for handlers..lol


so Jeremy, are you a person or a troll? Call me..I don't bite..:angel2:


----------



## Jeremy

What I'm saying is exactly what I've said 

As things stand right now, the Parti-color is not (and has not, for a very long time) been an accepted color in the Poodle breed. Now, to each their own...if someone likes it and wants to propagate it, more power to them. Nevertheless, until the Breed Standards are changed it is a serious fault and a disqualifying one in most countries. It seems some people feel this borders or echoes racism, but please let's remember we're talking dogs not humans here. A pet quality dog isn't "worse" than the Westminster BIS, but nevertheless with a certain purpose in mind one can judge them to certain criteria and find one lacking in comparison.

My suggestion isn't to make the Parti a "second class citizen". Actually, what I am suggesting would put Parti's on par with other Poodle colors. 'Excluding' Parti dogs is irrelevant to talk of a genetic bottleneck in Poodles being that none/very very few solid breeders would use a Parti stud, certainly not to the point of creating a genetic bottleneck in the breed. 

Creating a separate register for the Parti's/Phantoms would allow them to compete in the show ring and be judged fairly to their own Standard, formulated by their own Breed Club. The register would be open or semi-open, allowing for Parti's to be bred with Solids. The issue of this breeding would then compete with those of the same color (either Solid or Parti) but the Parti background would be clearly marked on the Solid puppies registration papers. It is an arrangement similar to that in FCI countries where colors compete separately in the show ring and there are certificates available for a male/female of each color in each size. 

Reading through this thread what I'm seeing are people who are favorable to Parti's not comprehending why they aren't being welcomed with open arms. In the same way that I believe it is people's right to like the Parti, it is also the right of "mainstream" Poodledom to continue to reject what has for many years been a serious fault. At least this kind of arrangement would stop discrimination against Parti's and allow them to be properly registered, shown (into Group competition etc) and promoted everywhere, instead of being treated as just the latest designer dog fad.


----------



## Jeremy

A'n'A Mom said:


> Jeremy,
> 
> Jean Lyle bred Standard Poodles from 1952 until the late 1980's. She has been dead for almost 30 years, I think. How she did things then is ancient history.
> 
> There were lots of things that were done differently in the 1950's and 1960's. Geneticists then recommended inbreeding that make the present scientific community gasp in horror. I have heard that breeders in the past would "bucket" unwanted or sick whelps--something that is completely unacceptable to our mores today and probably illegal in a number of places. So, to compare what was done 50 years ago and jump to the conclusion that Canadian Poodle breeders today are doing the same things, is a really weak argument, imo.


You said you didn't know *ANY Canadian breeders* who did that, I cited the first and most prominent example that came to mind. I'm not jumping to conclusions or accusing you or anyone of anything, what I'm saying is: this was done in the past and is still done by some breeders of that generation, and very likely by some of their successors (who have learnt from them).

And just to make clear, I think it's a horrible horrible awful practice and would NEVER condone or even accept it.


----------



## stealthq

Jeremy said:


> ...
> 'Excluding' Parti dogs is irrelevant to talk of a genetic bottleneck in Poodles being that none/very very few solid breeders would use a Parti stud, certainly not to the point of creating a genetic bottleneck in the breed.
> ...


There is already a genetic bottleneck in poodles, just as there is in pretty much every breed. Look at the pedigrees - lots of line-breeding and in-breeding. Lots of pedigrees that trace back to a few common ancestors. Why else is determining COI before breeding so important? If there was sufficient genetic variety there would be little need - just about any pairing would have a low COI.

Including the parti poodles would help alleviate that. It would allow breeders to incorporate a whole new set of stock. And, once recognized, you would see the negative view of parti colors slowly (very, I'm sure) recede.


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

Jeremy said:


> You said you didn't know *ANY Canadian breeders* who did that, I cited the first and most prominent example that came to mind.


Jeremy this quote was from me - *Rayah-QualitySPs* not A'n'A Mom. 

I am sorry I did not qualify my post by saying I did not know any *living* Canadian breeder who killed puppies in* t**his day and age* born the wrong colour. Sorry for the confusion my mistake has created.


----------



## tintlet

Jeremy said:


> What I'm saying is exactly what I've said
> 
> As things stand right now, the Parti-color is not (and has not, for a very long time) been an accepted color in the Poodle breed. Now, to each their own...if someone likes it and wants to propagate it, more power to them. Nevertheless, until the Breed Standards are changed it is a serious fault and a disqualifying one in most countries. It seems some people feel this borders or echoes racism, but please let's remember we're talking dogs not humans here. A pet quality dog isn't "worse" than the Westminster BIS, but nevertheless with a certain purpose in mind one can judge them to certain criteria and find one lacking in comparison.
> 
> My suggestion isn't to make the Parti a "second class citizen". Actually, what I am suggesting would put Parti's on par with other Poodle colors. 'Excluding' Parti dogs is irrelevant to talk of a genetic bottleneck in Poodles being that none/very very few solid breeders would use a Parti stud, certainly not to the point of creating a genetic bottleneck in the breed.
> 
> Creating a separate register for the Parti's/Phantoms would allow them to compete in the show ring and be judged fairly to their own Standard, formulated by their own Breed Club. The register would be open or semi-open, allowing for Parti's to be bred with Solids. The issue of this breeding would then compete with those of the same color (either Solid or Parti) but the Parti background would be clearly marked on the Solid puppies registration papers. It is an arrangement similar to that in FCI countries where colors compete separately in the show ring and there are certificates available for a male/female of each color in each size.
> 
> Reading through this thread what I'm seeing are people who are favorable to Parti's not comprehending why they aren't being welcomed with open arms. In the same way that I believe it is people's right to like the Parti, it is also the right of "mainstream" Poodledom to continue to reject what has for many years been a serious fault. At least this kind of arrangement would stop discrimination against Parti's and allow them to be properly registered, shown (into Group competition etc) and promoted everywhere, instead of being treated as just the latest designer dog fad.


OK, this post was easier for me to understand..lol Also, Thank you for the PM.

because AKC registers all the colors and sizes as "poodles" the MultiColor poodles can not be moved to a different "breed'. Plus it would be very difficult to place Markers on carriers. I assume you are thinking of what the Dobermans do for the Albinos ? DPCA | The Doberman | Albino | What is albino

Add to this that so many dogs are registered as the wrong color. Many phantoms are just listed as Silvers or Blues. Sables are registered as Silver Beige, some even as apricots or creams.

MC as a Variety within a Variety, would mean they would compete against the solids to go to the groups. Such as the Dachshunds . Two sizes, 3 coat types. one of each coat type goes to group. 

AKC Championships can be a mixed blessing...the dogs will get "prettier", but they also get overdone.

I guess the part that bothers me the most is the out and out discrimination. Show a Parti in Obed or Rally and people won't talk to ya. But show an oversize or undersize Sheltie and no-one notices. It's not like they're gonna catch something from ya..LOL


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## Tessa's Dad

stealthq said:


> There is already a genetic bottleneck in poodles, just as there is in pretty much every breed. Look at the pedigrees - lots of line-breeding and in-breeding. Lots of pedigrees that trace back to a few common ancestors. Why else is determining COI before breeding so important? If there was sufficient genetic variety there would be little need - just about any pairing would have a low COI.
> 
> Including the parti poodles would help alleviate that. It would allow breeders to incorporate a whole new set of stock. And, once recognized, you would see the negative view of parti colors slowly (very, I'm sure) recede.


Good points here. But it's part of a vicious circle. You may not *want* parti's included in breeding if you are looking to lower the COI. 

If you look back to the early roots of the poodle in literature and art, the parti-color dogs were very common. They are portrayed in art going back to the 1700's and they were largely sporting/hunting dogs. 









George Stubbs - 1724-1803








Richard Ramsey Reinagle - 1793​
Then in the early 20th century, the poodle became a status symbol. This is the time frame when the kennel clubs set the "standards" as being solid color dogs. This is where the "eugenics" started as breeders tried to produce "status" dogs in solid colors. And the solids they wanted were whites and blacks. These breeders didn't just cull the parti's, they culled the solids in colors they didn't want as well. (From what I'm finding, reds were NOT popular for status symbols. So they were disappearing as well.) The COI on the solid colored dogs, blacks and whites, would go up. Breeding stock in parti's and unpopular colors, was disappearing. 

Throughout this time Vulcan Kennel in the UK kept breeding parti's however, being one of the few that did, and with other breeders culling the parti color pups, the breeding lines narrowed. Now, the COI's on the Parti's starts going up. (Vulcan did reds as well from what I've read.)

Eventually the COI levels off on the solids. More recently (ie: Last 50 years or so) some breeders are trying to bring back the Parti's and deep non-fading reds. If you know the kennel names to look for, it is common to see very high COI's on Parti's and Reds because of limited breeding lines. 

Examples:

Parti's


Pioneer's Texas Size Spot - COI 16.8%
Bad Company's Lazarus - COI 18.2%
Mydramagic Cooper - COI 36.4%
Mydramagic Veni Vidi Vici II - COI 43.7%
Reds


Palmares Babbatte Rougette - COI 11.3%
Palmares Robinet - COI 23.1%
Palmares' Rougette L'elegante - COI 31.6%
Orange Delight von Shangrila - COI 28.6%
Majestic Topaz Velvet - COI 27.3%
All of this happens because of the "demand" for specific solid colors. 

Net result, here in 2011, we have to live with a lot of the mess ancestors in the breeding "industry" created. Many of the health problems (Not just in poodles but in many breeds) have been *caused* by our (man's) interference in trying to propagate what "we" thought looked nice rather than accept what nature gave us.


TD


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## stealthq

Tessa's Dad said:


> Good points here. But it's part of a vicious circle. You may not *want* parti's included in breeding if you are looking to lower the COI.
> 
> ...


Oh, I agree. Each of the groups, isolated, is as badly off as the other - or close enough that it makes little difference. And, the demand is such that it's unlikely to change quickly, if at all. But my argument for alleviating the bottleneck would require breeding parti to solid, unpopular solids to popular solids. There would have to be breeding across the groups to shuffle the genetic deck or there would be no point.


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## tintlet

OK, this might be drawn out and dry..but here goes. First of all COI is not the end all to Poodle Health. It's another tool, same as health testing, etc. 
When I first looked into Partis, I realized that I would need to do cross with solids . Not only for lower COI's, but for health and conformation. Parti hip ratings are all over the board. very few are even done, and they vary from excellent to very bad all in the same litter. 
my first parti girl ( Genetic information for UKC CH Sisco's Namaste Tachie ) was bred to one of our solid male's ( Genetic information for UKC GR CH Classic Been There Done That CD, RN ). Kept back a nice silver girl ( Genetic information for UKC GRCH Tintlet Namaste Kitchel ) at this point the COI was .48. Bred Kitchel to Levi (Genetic information for UKC GRCH Sisco's I Like It Like That UWP ) to produce Rune ( Genetic information for UKC GRCH Tintlet Here's Your Sign ). Rune has not yet been bred

Bred Levi ( Genetic information for UKC GRCH Sisco's I Like It Like That UWP ) to Ivy (Genetic information for UKC GRCH Windswept Benet Charmed ) to produce GG and Bret ( Genetic information for AM CH/UKC Gr CH Tintlet Wisecracking Gambler ). both GG and Bret have excellent OFA hips

Bred Bret to Kitchel to produce Tammy (Genetic information for Tintlet Your Good Girl's Gonna Go Bad).

GG ( Genetic information for UKC GRCH Tintlet Petite Fille) was bred to Rumor (Genetic information for UKC GRCH J-C Pioneers Sumthin To Tk Bout CGN ) to produce Kachina (http://poodlepedigree.com/coi.asp?ID=374992)..also in that litter is Tripp (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1124754796967.2019478.1170047525 )

Just did Kachina's health testing..everything is good, and is on OFA..

Bred GG to a solid CH male this spring.. nice litter. but back to high Wycliffe (Genetic information for Tintlet Midnight Rendezvous).


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## Tessa's Dad

tintlet said:


> OK, this might be drawn out and dry..but here goes. First of all COI is not the end all to Poodle Health. It's another tool, same as health testing, etc.





stealthq said:


> Oh, I agree. Each of the groups, isolated, is as badly off as the other - or close enough that it makes little difference. And, the demand is such that it's unlikely to change quickly, if at all. But my argument for alleviating the bottleneck would require breeding parti to solid, unpopular solids to popular solids. There would have to be breeding across the groups to shuffle the genetic deck or there would be no point.


Agreed that COI is not the end to poodle health. But a HIGH COI is a warning sign. (Inbreeding in dogs AND humans does cause problems that no one can deny.) 

The COI becomes a "start" using it, as you said, as a tool to work from. 

My comments were intended to show that there are good COI's in both solids of all colors and Parti's of all color mixes and tintlet showed that. 

Picking a low COI to start with from each, would, I believe, drop the COI on a litter so low it would probably be in the double decimal range (ie: 0.03%) or lower. 

The problem is, with the attitude I see from most solid breeders, they would never use the offspring from one of these litters for fear a mismark or parti would show up in one of theirs down the line. Advantageous for the Parti breeder but not for the solid breeder. 

Overall, the advantage for both, again "I believe", would be to deal a blow to health problems that are related to inbreeding. And produce nicer dogs. If not for "show", at least for families who need a forever dog.


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## tintlet

One of the points I wanted to make is that the Partis have the same ancestors as the solids. They are not going to bring in diversity. I can see a solid breeder using a carrier if it had exceptional qualities ( Kaiser was used by many solid breeders). many of the older partis have very nice shoulders and fronts under them, plus sturdy bodies.


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## Countryboy

I don't know much abt genetics . . . other than Gregor Mendels first experiments with Peas . . . but I would love to see somebody isolate the gene for stubbornness.

I'd even offer them Tonka for their tests. 'Coz he's *loaded* with that gene!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I agree with Tintlet. You would require as much research using partis in your program.


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## Tessa's Dad

tintlet said:


> One of the points I wanted to make is that the Partis have the same ancestors as the solids. They are not going to bring in diversity. I can see a solid breeder using a carrier if it had exceptional qualities ( Kaiser was used by many solid breeders). many of the older partis have very nice shoulders and fronts under them, plus sturdy bodies.


I understand what you are saying tinklet. The point I was trying to make, and I don't think I made it all that clear, is that because of the "Standards" set by the kennel clubs in the early 1900's, Parti's have followed a completely different genetic path than solids. 

Because the solid breeders wanted nothing to do with the Parti's, (So they could decrease the occurrence of mismarks and parties in litters) two distinctly separate paths have developed (yes, there has been some limited "sharing" but it's very small) between the two. 

So, when you look at the aspect of common ancestors, in some cases you could be looking back 100 years or more to find a common ancestor between one particular solid, and one particular parti. Generally, if I do a 10 generation pedigree on dogs I know, I'm only back to the early 1960's. So you can see how many generations you would be going back to get to say, 1930 even. Literally dozens.

This is the diversity I was thinking about. 

For what it's worth, this is not unique to the Poodle or even dog world. It happens with animal husbandry all over the world in all types of animals that man can control. Man (we collectively) just have to fiddle with things trying to bring out features and traits that we think are beneficial but may actually be detrimental. My interest in the genetics is more cattle centered where this also happens.


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## tintlet

TD,
I used to work for a large animal Vet. There was a family that raised some Red Angus cattle. One day this tine little calf was brought in to be treated. It was darn near dead and only about 12" tall. The vet said the family has not EVEN gotten a new Bull/or cows for the herd. Just let the old Guy breed until he was to old, then saved back one of his sons, etc. They kept back heifers and just kept on building the herd..lol The cows were all tiny , dwarfy, and didn't live long..EEEKKKKK.

I understand livestock breeding. its much easier


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## Tessa's Dad

tintlet said:


> TD,
> I used to work for a large animal Vet. There was a family that raised some Red Angus cattle. One day this tine little calf was brought in to be treated. It was darn near dead and only about 12" tall. The vet said the family has not EVEN gotten a new Bull/or cows for the herd. Just let the old Guy breed until he was to old, then saved back one of his sons, etc. They kept back heifers and just kept on building the herd..lol The cows were all tiny , dwarfy, and didn't live long..EEEKKKKK.
> 
> *I understand livestock breeding. its much easier*


Oh, neutering the bulls isn't. Trust me on this.

Jeffers® Emasculatome - Jeffers




TD


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## Jeremy

Tessa's Dad said:


> I understand what you are saying tinklet. The point I was trying to make, and I don't think I made it all that clear, is that because of the "Standards" set by the kennel clubs in the early 1900's, Parti's have followed a completely different genetic path than solids.
> 
> Because the solid breeders wanted nothing to do with the Parti's, (So they could decrease the occurrence of mismarks and parties in litters) two distinctly separate paths have developed (yes, there has been some limited "sharing" but it's very small) between the two.
> 
> So, when you look at the aspect of common ancestors, in some cases you could be looking back 100 years or more to find a common ancestor between one particular solid, and one particular parti. Generally, if I do a 10 generation pedigree on dogs I know, I'm only back to the early 1960's. So you can see how many generations you would be going back to get to say, 1930 even. Literally dozens.
> 
> This is the diversity I was thinking about.
> 
> For what it's worth, this is not unique to the Poodle or even dog world. It happens with animal husbandry all over the world in all types of animals that man can control. Man (we collectively) just have to fiddle with things trying to bring out features and traits that we think are beneficial but may actually be detrimental. My interest in the genetics is more cattle centered where this also happens.


Do you happen to have any pedigrees of Parti lines distinct from solid lines going back 20, 40 years?


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## Countryboy

Tessa's Dad said:


> Jeffers® Emasculatome - Jeffers


Moderators!  There should be a warning for posting a link like this without a warning. 'Specially with guys in the forum. OUCH!! :bolt:


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## tintlet

Tessa's Dad said:


> Oh, neutering the bulls isn't. Trust me on this.
> 
> Jeffers® Emasculatome - Jeffers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TD


Quit being such a woosie...must be a guy thing :afraid:

Didn't bother me a bit :hmmmm2:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

LOL!!! Wouldn't it be nice if it could be this easy for dogs?


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