# Opinion on breeder?



## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

Hi,

I haven't posted on PF in a few years as I've been waiting for the right time to get a puppy, which has finally arrived! 

I had chatted with a breeder, through email, about a potential Christmas litter and I was interested in one of her pups as she shows and breeds champions and regularly imports new dogs for her breeding program. She appeared to be a kennel breeder, though I wasn't sure. 

I was mostly happy to get a puppy from her, I had a few reservations, then I discovered that she also runs a boarding kennel. I looked up this kennel and it seemed pretty good, until I began finding reviews... Stories of dogs sick, badly injured, some dying or dead, after their stays at this kennel. She took no responsibility for the dogs in her care. There were more bad reviews than good. I would never even consider sending a pet to stay with this breeder, so I would also not consider purchasing a puppy from her. 

Then I discovered another registered breeder, whose waiting list I am currently on. She breeds one or two litters a year, unlike the other breeder who has litters available most months. She was very helpful in her emails, unlike the other breeder whose emails were almost unintelligible at times. She fully health tests all breeding dogs and regularly sends updates, photos, and videos of the puppies to the potential owners. 

I had a wonderful and long chat with her on the phone last week, and she was absolutely lovely to talk to. She answered all my questions and offered more information. She has a litter due late August and is mentoring two breeders who have litters due shortly after. As I am looking for a very specific dog (temperament wise), she said it would be best for us to wait until all litters are born and the puppies have developed their temperaments, so that she could help me choose the puppy most suited to what I am looking for, which is exactly what I want.

My only concern with this breeder is that she doesn't do conformation or performance with her dogs. They are solely pets and most are not square shaped, they have shorter legs on longer bodies. She breeds for health, temperament, and colour. 

I don't really mind that they are not show quality dogs, as that is not something I am looking for, but I was wondering if this is something that you all would consider a serious fault with a breeder. I would love to hear your opinions on this second breeder.

Thank you


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I certainly would run away from the first person. All that sounds scary!

I would prefer to see that a breeder does some sort of showing, but will note that Lily's breeder didn't. Javelin's breeder shows in conformation and obedience and Javelin's sire is a champion of her own breeding.

I think there are many things about the breeder you are currently in discussion with that all sound for the good even if the dogs aren't quite built right (as long as the proportion issues don't result in joint problems).


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Personally, I would have a problem buying a poodle that is long with shorter legs. To me they just aren't pleasing to look at. I would also question a breeder who doesn't strive for good conformation. I understand when they find the most important thing health and temperament, but I think if they are truly trying to better the breed they would also take into account conformation. 

It is important enough to me that I would cross any breeder who does not pay attention to conformation off my list.


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

Thank you both for your replies.

I think the shorter legs/longer backs in her lines come from her first breedings, using a large mini dam and a small mini sire. I, too, prefer the look of conformation bred poodles.

Two of the three litters coming up are from dams she has bred, but the sire of both litters is an import from a breeder who does showing. Both of these litters are from 12-13 inch minis. The third litter, from one of the breeders she is mentoring, is from conformation bred poodles. This third litter is the one I am most interested in as they are from 15 inch minis and I would much prefer a taller mini. 

The sire from the third litter is a red, which I'd love to have, but the dam is cream, so I suspect there won't be any reds in the litter. I'm sure they'll all be beautiful puppies regardless.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Personally, I would have a problem buying a poodle that is long with shorter legs. To me they just aren't pleasing to look at. I would also question a breeder who doesn't strive for good conformation. I understand when they find the most important thing health and temperament, but I think if they are truly trying to better the breed they would also take into account conformation.
> 
> It is important enough to me that I would cross any breeder who does not pay attention to conformation off my list.


Ditto.

To me, there is only one reason to breed dogs. And that is to improve upon the last generation. And breeding dogs that conform to the standard keeps our purebred dogs the way they're suppose to be. I would be suspicious of anyone who is willing to breed dogs that don't conform because while that may not cause gigantic health issues necessarily, but they sure might...it shows a lackluster attitude or ignorance in how to responsibly breed dogs. What else has this breeder slacked on, it would make me wonder. Health, pedigree study? Longevity? If she isn't concerned enough with this one thing... to strive to breed dogs to the breed standard, I'd personally run. And the first breeder goes without saying. 

This extreme uniformity in breeds is what gives us our breeds and keeps them separate from other breeds instead of a big melting pot. And it is also a double edged sword. It also means that there is very little genetic diversity and that causes big problems too. And this is for a whole other thread. But suffice it to say...genetic health testing, not too close inbreeding if you can help it, good temperaments, and a fantastic reputation among Poodle fanciers would be something to watch for. (and more) There's a lot online about how to look for a reputable breeder.

Keep on looking would be my advice. Maybe people here can help.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I personally was only willing to buy from a conformation show breeder who is dedicated to preserving and bettering the breed, and not just making a profit by selling pups. I also would only buy from a breeder who raises the pups in the home and has few litters per year.

I am wondering why this second breeder you mention is mentoring other breeders. She doesn't show, so what exactly is she teaching the others? Backyard breeding for profit?


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I have contacted two conformation breeders, one who mentioned a few months ago that she may have puppies, depending on when her bitch went into season. I also contacted the breeder of the red male, who regularly shows her dogs. 

The first conformation breeder seems to be a great breeder, rears her pups in home and even provides rescue for poodles in need in my state. I'm hoping to hear back from her soon. I do not know much about the second conformation breeder, except that she produces well bred dogs with great temperaments; I haven't had any contact with her previously.

I think the breeder with the shorter legged dogs is just helping those other breeders learn how to breed and raise their first litters; that's how it sounded. 

Would this breeder be considered a backyard breeder? She's registered with all the appropriate bodies.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

In the US, where we have an abundance of dogs in kill shelters, which makes me very leery of anyone who isn't breeding for show. Until every dog in shelters is adopted, I don't think it's ethical to breed just for the pet market (I consider anyone who doesn't show a backyard breeder). 

I'd go with one of the conformation breeders because structure really is important in the overall health of a dog. The beauty of a well-bred dog is the icing on the cake.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i notice you're in australia. do you check dogzonline? there are about 15 toy poodle pups or pups to be being advertised right now. i can't speak for the breeders, of course, since i have never purchased a puppy from any of them. but there are some highly respectable breeders who do post their litters here. a couple of the breeders have web sites and a couple indicate they breed from champion lines.


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah, I found all these breeders from Dogzonline. I'm after a mini poodle, but one that will be ready for his new home November/December, so there aren't any puppies listed on there yet. I really would prefer a breeder nearby, as I'm looking for a really specific dog and want to meet him and the parents (the dam, at least) before bringing him home. 

I had an assistance dog chosen for me last year; I didn't meet him until the day we were partnered and he was nothing like they'd said. He was insanely energetic, not even remotely cat friendly, and he did not even have basic obedience training, let alone advanced assistance dog training. It was very stressful for me and I couldn't bear that happening again. 

If I could find a breeder I thoroughly trusted and knew would pick the right puppy for me, I would consider having him shipped to me. However, I haven't come across any breeders that temperament test and many allocate puppies at birth.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jsc said:


> I have contacted two conformation breeders, one who mentioned a few months ago that she may have puppies, depending on when her bitch went into season. I also contacted the breeder of the red male, who regularly shows her dogs.
> 
> The first conformation breeder seems to be a great breeder, rears her pups in home and even provides rescue for poodles in need in my state. I'm hoping to hear back from her soon. I do not know much about the second conformation breeder, except that she produces well bred dogs with great temperaments; I haven't had any contact with her previously.
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this does not make any sense - how could somebody be defined as a conformation breeder if they have never bred a litter before and are being mentored by a non- conformation breeder? Have they ever finished a champion, or is that just a pipe dream that they hope will magically appear in their first litter? And FYI, just using a champion stud does not presto create show quality puppies - there is an art and science to choosing the right dogs to breed, and even when both parents are chosen from the best of the best, the odds of producing greatness are not that high, and clearly their mentor has zero knowledge in this area....
Personally I love the looks of a well bred poodle, but I would like to point out that in this particular breed, excellent conformation equates with excellent functioning and health. Poodles with long backs and short legs I would think be much more likely to have back (disc) and knee (patella) problems than a squarely built poodle who is up on leg. One of the things that I adore about this breed is that a well built poodle is a very functional, athletic dog!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm sorry. I'm confused.

In the post you quoted I meant that, after receiving your replies, I contacted two breeders that show their dogs, and now I've also contacted a third that seems to be well respected and produces worldwide champions. I never meant that the breeders originally mentioned, the main one and the mentored ones, are conformation breeders. 

I hope I've cleared things up.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

are there any organizations you can contact to help with finding an assistance dog? you're right that committing a dog before a litter is even born and the dogs can be temperament tested is a very difficult way to go.


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I've already had two program trained assistance dogs. 

The first one was a beautiful, well trained girl, but the second one really soured me towards programs. I was already weary of programs, because of the politics involved and I had some really horrible experiences with some of the big programs in Australia. 

I considered going with another program that seem to be run by good people, but their waiting list is 3-5 years minimum. I've decided to go with another program that helps people owner train their own dogs. They are a certified program, so I will still have full state and national legal protection with them. 

I'm hoping to find a breeder that will be willing to wait until the males in the litter are older, before allocating them. I was looking into a different breed originally, and found a wonderful breeder willing to do this, but her bitch didn't go into season. 

I'm looking for a puppy that has the potential for assistance dog work, but I won't mind if he washes out when he is older. I just want to start with the most suitable puppy and work from there.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Not sure which state you're in, but have you tried any of the state based poodle clubs? There's one in NSW, Vic, Qld and WA at least I'm pretty sure. I'm sure they'll be able to give you some advice.

My breeder doesn't allocate pups until 7 weeks when they're temperament tested (but that's spoos not minis) and I'm pretty sure there were a couple who do this when I was researching. 

Good luck!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm in QLD, and I have noticed there are a few spoo breeders that temperament test. I was looking at one in northern QLD a while ago who temperament tested and whom I'd certainly consider getting a dog from, but she only breeds the other two sizes. 

I would consider a toy, but it will be hard enough being taken seriously with a mini poodle assistance dog, and I just don't have the room for a spoo anymore.

I had a look at the QLD poodle club, but their website didn't have much info.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

perhaps talk to a breeder - no matter what size dog. sometimes someone already in the loop will be able to direct you to another breeder.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Agree with patk - especially in a much smaller market like Australia the breeders will tend to know each other. Could get you somewhere. 

I'd also try calling or emailing the president or secretary (sometimes they're the same person) of the Qld poodle club if the website doesn't have much info.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Jsc said:


> ...If I could find a breeder I thoroughly trusted and knew would pick the right puppy for me, I would consider having him shipped to me. However, I haven't come across any breeders that temperament test and many allocate puppies at birth.


You might try contacting Debbie Cozart of Cotian Standard Poodles in Australia for a referral to a reputable breeder. Cotian Poodles`

Good luck with your puppy search!:clover:


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

I sent a message to the standard and toy breeder that temperament tests her puppies to see if she might know of a suitable mini breeder; hopefully I will hear back from her soon.

I also sent a message to the breeder you suggested, Chagall's mom. 

If there wasn't such a stigma against small breed assistance dogs, I could get a toy from the above breeder. A toy would be a better size for my cat, Sydney, as she recently became special needs after a very serious illness and subsequent surgery to save her; she has metal and tubing in her abdomen, so a smaller dog would be less likely to cause injury during play (though they would always be supervised together anyway). 

A toy would be cheaper to feed and groom, as well, which isn't a big deal normally, but Sydney's care and surgery has cost me more than $12k since April, and that figure will continue to grow. I have pet insurance for her, but they've wrongly refused to pay out, claiming "related condition to her preexisting condition", which it isn't. I'm currently fighting them with Syd's vets' help and the help of a lawyer. 

The above breeder also has a silver beige toy male available at the moment. I only learnt of the colour through seeing a silver beige puppy on PF, and it is such a beautiful colour and colour change!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jsc said:


> I sent a message to the standard and toy breeder that temperament tests her puppies to see if she might know of a suitable mini breeder; hopefully I will hear back from her soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If a toy will suit your needs and can do the work get it - SD handlers always get grief from some people no matter the breed or the size, so what if you get a little more with a small SD - since you have had SD's before, ?i am sure that you know how to handle it! It would be a darn shame if you allowed the publics attitude to force you to get less than the best dog for you!


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

Tiny Poodles, I've actually just been in contact with the toy and standard breeder about her upcoming toy litter! The parents sound like wonderful dogs and she does full health testing and temperament tests at 7 weeks, and sounds like the exact kind of breeder I would want to get a puppy from. She's expecting cafe au lait and silver beige, both of which are beautiful colours!

I've sent her some follow up questions, but I'm really excited about this litter!

You're right, I'd get grief from people even if I had another lab SD. I have friends with guide dogs, the most well known type of SD, and they constantly get people telling them 'no dogs'. 

Maybe I'll be able to help make way for other small breed assistance dogs. I know there is a program nearby that has started using papillons in their program.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

best of luck. don't abandon us, now. let us know how it goes for you.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

except we don't have an abundance of dogs in kill shelters all over the US. There are areas that have lots of dogs in kill shelters which can and are being moved around the US for adoption in other areas. 

BUT if our shelters are so over crowded why are rescues importing thousands of dogs each year from overseas? Just seems counterproductive to me....


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Probably for the same reason we send so much money to other countries for starving children when we have so many starving children here. 

In California our shelters are way over full and dogs are killed by the thousands.

The number moved to other States doesn't even make a dent in the number that are euthanized.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Spot on, N2Mischief. 

spindledreams, I just checked the stats--1.2 million dogs are euthanized in the U.S. every year. Sickening. Dogs in the southern California shelters I volunteered in (including the one I got Zooey from) had 4 days to get adopted or they could be killed. My sister's Chihuahua I helped her rescue was literally minutes away from being killed--a 3 lbs. young adult cream female, cute as they come. That tells you how bad the problem is in CA. Only a tiny percentage of dogs are transferred to rescues.


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## Jsc (Jan 30, 2012)

patk said:


> best of luck. don't abandon us, now. let us know how it goes for you.


Thanks! I'd been waiting until I had news to update, but I haven't heard back just yet. The breeder is a very busy woman, so I'm happy to wait until she has the time to chat to me about her upcoming litter.

I do have one question. To get only cafe au lait and silver beige in a litter, am I right in assuming that the parents must be cafe au lait and silver beige?


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