# True Black Standard Poodles



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

They stopped worrying about color so much when they started dying for the ring....oy. 

You can have inky blacks breeding pure white to pure black, by the way. Too many people have messed with the colors now and you are right, it's hard to find them. 

There is a breeder of show dogs in the Santa Barbara/Ventura area who does have these blacks. They are veterinarians and don't have much of a website. I will rack my brain to try and remember their name. It is an odd, silly name, so hasn't stuck. Maybe someone will know with those clues. I met one of their dogs at 9 years old and still black as night. I think they have a boarding kennel? ugh. can't remember their names.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

TrublackStandard said:


> Hello! I spent along time researching different breeds and finally decided a Standard would be a perfect addition to my family. I am having a very hard time finding a breeder who breeds true blacks, not hybrid blacks (black to white) but true inky blacks. Most of the show breeders believe that color is not very important, structure is.. I am looking for a breeder who breeds predominantly blacks, who has very inky blacks that stay that way.. I live in Northern California but I would consider breeders in any area.. Most of the breeders who are on the top of my list are in Canada.. I look forward to your suggestions and Thank you for your help


Just out of curiosity, why is color so important? What does color have to do with the soundness of the dog? I think that there is good reason why many show breeders stopped focusing on color. I think you will find more good breeders that focus on health/temperament/structure than you find good breeders that focus on color.

Whether or not a dog will hold their black color is, IMO, relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things and secondly difficult to predict. For example, my mom's dog is 4 and jet black while his sire is quite faded.


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## TrublackStandard (Jun 4, 2012)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Just out of curiosity, why is color so important? What does color have to do with the soundness of the dog? I think that there is good reason why many show breeders stopped focusing on color. I think you will find more good breeders that focus on health/temperament/structure than you find good breeders that focus on color.
> 
> Whether or not a dog will hold their black color is, IMO, relatively unimportant in the grand scheme of things and secondly difficult to predict. For example, my mom's dog is 4 and jet black while his sire is quite faded.


I agree health and temperment should be number one.. unimportant to whom you? Not to me or the countless others who spend years on waitlist waiting for puppies from certain breeders like Nevermore, splendid,


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## TrublackStandard (Jun 4, 2012)

outwest said:


> They stopped worrying about color so much when they started dying for the ring....oy.
> 
> You can have inky blacks breeding pure white to pure black, by the way. Too many people have messed with the colors now and you are right, it's hard to find them.
> 
> There is a breeder of show dogs in the Santa Barbara/Ventura area who does have these blacks. They are veterinarians and don't have much of a website. I will rack my brain to try and remember their name. It is an odd, silly name, so hasn't stuck. Maybe someone will know with those clues. I met one of their dogs at 9 years old and still black as night. I think they have a boarding kennel? ugh. can't remember their names.


I agree.. I never heard about this breeder, if you can think of the name let me know, Thank you


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

TrublackStandard said:


> I agree health and temperment should be number one.. unimportant to whom you? Not to me or the countless others who spend years on waitlist waiting for puppies from certain breeders like Nevermore, splendid,


I think that in an ideal world most people would of course prefer an inky black. But in the _grand scheme of things_ I personally think that finding a breeder that breeds healthy, structurally sound animals trumps finding a "pretty color" any day. Hence my saying that in the grand scheme of things, color is relatively unimportant, as it holds no gravity on the well being of the dog. Structure, health, temperament do.

If the dog ends up holding their color, that is truly wonderful. I don't see the benefit, from a health and breeding point of view, of limiting black breedings to black. There are enough issues lurking in the black lines. For example, a quick look at PHR shows that Wycliffe is between 70% and 92% on most of the Nevermore dogs. There are theories that suggest that high Wycliffe values correlate with autoimmune diseases in poodles.

There are breeders who put color as a top priority, and there are breeders who put structure, health and temperament as a top priority, letting color slide if need be. This latter breeder, in my opinion, is a superior breeder. So, if I were to offer any advice, it would be to find a breeder that breeds healthy, structurally sound animals, and to hope that your dog might hold their color.  Looking for a breeder who is doing things right, and who happens to be breeding a dog that has held their color, is a good start.

My question is, why should color be put above structure?


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## Rachel (May 31, 2012)

Hi: I am new to this forum. Still trying to find my poodle - my first pet ever.
Black is not my color. So, here is the info I got for you: 
This breeder has a pure black 9-mo male puppy available now.
I do not know about this breeder. I have no knowledge to know whether if it's good nor not. Just thought to share, because I asked her if her boy color would fade (I wish), she said no!
http://www.kamannpoodles.com/

good luck to both of us


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Rachel said:


> Hi: I am new to this forum. Still trying to find my poodle - my first pet ever.
> Black is not my color. So, here is the info I got for you:
> This breeder has a pure black 9-mo male puppy available now.
> I do not know about this breeder. I have no knowledge to know whether if it's good nor not. Just thought to share, because I asked her if her boy color would fade (I wish), she said no!
> ...


A quick glance at the website shows that they seem to do health testing (I am not familiar with minis and the required testing - my disclaimer  ) and show their dogs, both pluses. Hopefully you can find someone who has had experience with this breeder to learn more about them. 

What do you mean she said her boy's color would not fade? Is this an older dog or a puppy you might end up with?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Guess what: every black dog in the world is going to have a couple white hairs.


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## Rachel (May 31, 2012)

sorry.. I have no idea. I kind of wish the dog will fade (i put shed earlier.. as mistake) when he grows up. But the breeder said no, he will not. So I guess it's what Trublack needs


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Rachel said:


> sorry.. I have no idea. I kind of wish the dog will shed when he grows up. But the breeder said no, he will not. So I guess it's what Trublack needs


Haha, nope! Poodles don't shed, if your poodle is losing hair (not just brushed out) it's probably a medical condition and you should have it checked.

Labradoodles shed.


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## Rachel (May 31, 2012)

oops, I mean 'fade'. She said no.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Haha good! I was totally confused for a bit there.


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## TrublackStandard (Jun 4, 2012)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Guess what: every black dog in the world is going to have a couple white hairs.


Yes but theres a huge difference from a dog with a few white guard hairs opposed to a dog who looks salt an pepper.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

There is a inky true black male at Caroline Rescue right now. He is 6 years old and black as night. Turned in by a breeder. He is beautiful, so I am guessing he has issues or he would not be there. P.S. Take a good look at Carley, now could she really be any prettier...lol


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## TrublackStandard (Jun 4, 2012)

Carley's Mom said:


> There is a inky true black male at Caroline Rescue right now. He is 6 years old and black as night. Turned in by a breeder. He is beautiful, so I am guessing he has issues or he would not be there. P.S. Take a good look at Carley, now could she really be any prettier...lol


He is stunning!! I would really like a female and would like to go through a breeder who shows there dogs


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## TrublackStandard (Jun 4, 2012)

Rachel said:


> Hi: I am new to this forum. Still trying to find my poodle - my first pet ever.
> Black is not my color. So, here is the info I got for you:
> This breeder has a pure black 9-mo male puppy available now.
> I do not know about this breeder. I have no knowledge to know whether if it's good nor not. Just thought to share, because I asked her if her boy color would fade (I wish), she said no!
> ...


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Hello TrueBlackStandard! 

Just wanted to throw some thoughts at you. I can't blame you for looking for a specific color of dog. I'm fairly picky about my color choices when it comes to poodles as well. Obviously, color is NOT the most important factor in the search. I'm looking for health testing, breeding practices, showing and competing, etc. _in addition to_ color. I don't think that you have to (or should be expected to) sacrifice color for all of these other things. I look for a breeder that does all of these things *and* has the color that I'm looking for. If you look hard enough, and long enough, you will find what you want. 

Black is by far one of the most common colors for poodles, so you really should be able to find a breeder that has the kind of blacks (color) that you are looking for. I would, however, caution you against limiting your search to strictly black on black breedings. I don't think any good breeder would exclusively do this, because it greatly decreases the genetic diversity in the bloodlines (search for a thread here about Wycliffe influence which speaks volumes about genetic diversity in the standard poodle). You can get inky blacks from the breeding of black to other colors. 

Hopefully someone will chime in that knows more about conformation breeders that are producing inky blacks (I'm much more familiar with red, silver, and parti breeders that are competing in dog sports or are involved in therapy work, because that is what I have looked into in my own search for a breeder).


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I am curious, at what age do people consider a dog to be proven as a "true" black as the OP calls it. Meaning the dog won't be a bad black, fading to a salt and pepper? 2? 4? 6? 12?

Jäger is still inky black, but he's only 2½ years old.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Paddle, Carley started to fade to Blue at about 2 years old.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Vegas is solid black, couple white hairs (as is common) at 2 1/2, his lines has blue, silver, black, and cream.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

And my mom's inky black dog (see below) at age 4 1/2 has a brown grandparent, a cream, and a blue grandparent. Plenty of white and cream in the 5 gen. pedigree.


Five generation pedigree: Ch. Vic-Tori's Elegant Edge

My mom's previous black poodle was faded out to gray color/salt and pepper ("bad black") by age 2. This is the same color that the sire of my mom's current holding black poodle is. Obviously, color is a bit of a crap shoot.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Vegas is solid black, couple white hairs (as is common) at 2 1/2, his lines has blue, silver, black, and cream.


Jäger also has a handful of white hairs, but is very black. People are always asking me if I dye him because he's so black (um, no, I do not!). 

Do you think he will stay black?

His sire was white, dam was black.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Nothing at all wrong with having a color preference (I had one myself! :biggrin, but wise of you to do some asking around now so that you know what sort of expectations to have. As previous posters have said, it's not necessarily the colors behind the breeding, but the presence or absence of "fading" somewhere in their genetic makeup that comes into play here. Some dogs from black-on-black-forever breeding have it, and some dogs from black-to-white breeding don't.

Breeders should know whether dogs of their line "tend" to fade or not...but it's an iffy thing. 

Good luck in your search! Solid, inky blacks are so dramatic!

--Q


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

And regardless if they fade, you probably won't even care.

I don't like bad pigment on dogs, Cairo's went terrible in the spring, but is darkening. It won't go all the way dark, and ya know what? I don't even care.


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## momofthree (Apr 9, 2011)

One of my favorite Standards ever is Jaset's Cloak n Dagger. He is a gorgeous black dog, with a wonderful temperament, and he's a very healthy guy. He's now about 10 years old and a little bit faded. But, you know what? I don't think it detracts from his gorgeousness one little bit. If my dog looks like him ( especially his sweet face), I will be so happy! Not trying to dissuade you from finding " inky" , but I think sometimes a non- inky is pretty amazing, too! 

Our Standards Jaset Poodles

You can see him, if you scroll down to the bottom of the page.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Still can't remember the name of that breeder. You don't have to find a solid all black pedigree to get a nonfading black. It is better for diversity to have a mix of dogs. If you choose ones from nonfading lines, your chances are good no matter what the other colors were. You might want to stay away from lines with silver or brown or red or blue in the recent history (known fading colors). You best bet is to choose lines with almost only black or white, although you can have a nonfading black with other colors in the lines. The fading gene can sometimes be attached to one pup in a litter and not another- both starting out black.


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