# Have Grains Got a Bad Rap?



## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Let me preface the following by stating up front that I am not a DVM, nor do I hold a PhD, or have any other fancy letters following my name. I have been living with dogs since I was a child (I’m now pushing 60), I have followed and studied animal nutrition for over 30 years, and spent a decade working in the pet food industry. I have worked closely with manufacturers, and have a pretty good feel for most of the inner workings of commercial feed mills, and the raw ingredients they use, and why. I have no bias in this discussion, my work was primarily within aquaculture circles.

I am simply hoping that in some small way I might assist the average pet owner in understanding some of the dog food hype that is out there, including on some of the more well-known sites where they rate dog food brands and formulas – without always explaining the BIG picture. 

Is grain getting a fair shake? 

I don’t think so. There (gasp), I said it. I don’t see the logic behind pointing a finger at wheat, rice, or corn, yet praising brands that contain potatoes, lentils, peas, etc. To the average dogs digestive system, they are largely all one and the same, all terrestrial based plant matter, where quantity will generally become far more important than any misguided notions of quality. Some pet owners even go so far as to refer to raw ingredients made up of grains as cheap “fillers”, a term that quite honestly has no place in a discussion about commercial feed. A more accurate term would be lower cost alternative, forms of protein, or sources of energy, which in a processed state are by and large very digestible for the vast majority of dogs. Grains are not used by manufacturers to simply “fill” some kind of void? They are used as cost effective alternatives to more traditional, and yes, typically more expensive raw ingredients. As an example, wheat and corn gluten, are both highly digestible forms of protein – not fillers. The bioavailability of both those ingredients to most dogs will generally be quite high. 

This doesn’t necessarily equate to dogs being fed massive quantities of terrestrial based plant matter (no matter the plant type) as being a good thing, it’s not! Diabetes and obesity can be the result, but cutting out raw ingredients derived from grains just because of a pet owner promoted fad, or a sales gimmick promoted by other manufacturers, is just plain silly. I’ve witnessed this exact same thing in aquaculture forums, where folks have been bamboozled by manufacturer hype, with no science to back anything up. If there are peer reviewed papers out there to substantiate all of the various claims of grains being bad (in limited quantity), and/or other forms of terrestrial based plant matter being superior, with long term feed trials of dogs attached, I have certainly not come across any. 

If a dog food manufacturer started adding handfuls of bison hair to their food, to mimic a more natural diet, such as a wolf would eat in the wild – would consumers be supportive of that addition? Natural fiber, sounds good and natural, right? I doubt it! Yet in the wild most wild dog scat does indeed contain hair, in some cases, lots of it. (I live in NW Canada and have seen plenty close up)

But our little poos aren’t wolves, and we don’t want them eating handfuls of hair, now do we?

Certainly some dogs will have issues with the more common starchy ingredients, such as corn, and/or wheat, but the same could be said about many raw ingredients and sensitivity issues that have been born over perhaps hundreds of years of feeding some of these items to our domesticated pets. Many dogs have allergic reactions or sensitivity issues with chicken, beef, eggs, etc., all nutritionally sound ingredients – yet it seems that grains have been singled out as being *bad*, while other quality ingredients get a free pass with consumers. Why is that? Because our little poos are actually wolves in sheep’s clothing, and require the same diet as a wolf, or a coyote would eat in the wild? Really? Come on now ….

A four pound toy poodle is nothing like a wolf, or any other wild dog. Poodles are a man-made breed, designed through thousands of years of domestication and many decades of selective breeding. Science has not only proven that wolves produce enzymes that allow them to consume carbohydrates, such as grains, we also know from peer reviewed scientific studies that in summer months wolves in the wild will consume grass, berries, and various other plant matter, as will coyotes, and most other wild dogs. Most wild dogs are opportunistic feeders, meaning in lean times (feast or famine) they will eat whatever provides them with some nutrients. 

Foraging and Feeding Ecology of the Gray Wolf (Canis lupus): Lessons from Yellowstone National Park, Wyoming, USA


We also now know that through early domestication of dogs, they have adapted over time to be able to consume larger quantities of carbohydrates. It appears that their digestion system is far better geared to assimilate terrestrial based plant matter, than wolves. 

The actual study ……

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tion_reveals_adaptation_to_a_starch-rich_diet


The short & sweet version …..

Adaptation to Starchy Diet Was Key to Dog Domestication - Scientific American Blog Network


As I stated up front, I am not a DVM, nor do I hold any credentials that would place my comments as being an expert regarding the science of animal nutrition – but I have been kicking around for a long time, and have a pretty solid grasp of what I am talking about when it comes to commercial feed, and animal nutrition. For those that would prefer to read some of this from a person that is in fact a vet, the following blog covers much of what I just posted, and a lot more. Pretty interesting (and factual) read on the subject of grains, and by-products, both buzz words on most pet forums these days. 

The Truth about Grain, By-products, and other Pet Food Myths | Guelph Animal Hospital

The DVM in that blog uses Royal Canin as an example as it appears that he is based in Guelph ON, where Royal Canin’s Canadian manufacturing facility is located. And while he may very well use and sell some of their products, he does not come across as someone that has been brain washed, or drank anyone’s marketing Kool-Aid on this subject. In fact, I wish that he was located locally, I would seriously consider giving this vet my business.


And just to be fair, here’s an opposing opinion, shared by another DVM.

Can Dogs Really Thrive On Starch-Rich Diets?

I will only add to that, I have personally never suggested that any dog be fed a “high carb diet”, which is what the Dr. in the previous link uses in his closing argument/comment. While the Swedish authors may have used the term thrive, I suspect that their use of the word was relating to the basic definition of the term, which is to prosper, or be successful. Obviously early domestic dogs on a whole, did indeed thrive, and I find it only logical that part of the reason for that was they adapted to their new environment, which included changes in their diet. 

In closing, I read a comment somewhere on this forum where a poodle owner suggested to feed whatever works for your dog – which I think is very sage advice. Some dogs may do well on a diet that includes grain content, some not, some may do well on a diet that includes eggs, some not, some may do well on a higher protein/fat formula, others may get severe diarrhea , etc. Not all dogs are the same, behaviour wise, or digestion wise, so when you find a successful feeding regimen – stick with it! I suspect that far more dogs on this planet die every day from complications due to obesity, than anything else. 

Cheers!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've read all those things and then some, as I researched a whole lot while deciding what kind of diet to have my dogs on. There are articles from other good sources that point the opposite way. But thanks for posting those interesting articles. I was kind of on the fence for a while but have seen that dogs don't need carbohydrates, and in fact, (imo) do better without them. At least my dogs. lol. I think grain is the culprit of many health issues in dogs after what I've read. And most importantly, I've seen _right _before my eyes some almost miraculous health improvements in my senior dog...he had lots of issues clear up within a couple weeks of starting raw. And the improved energy, muscle tone, very clean teeth, breath and vitality in general in all my dogs...much greater since they've been on a fresh food, non-processed, good quality protein and fat meaty bone diet plus organ. Just remarkable. They don't need grain at all. Dogs get their energy from protein and fat. 

I'm more of this school of thought:

The Great Debate: Do Dogs Need Fruits and Vegetables? - Primal Pooch


Here's another thread we had on a similar vein: 

http://www.poodleforum.com/32-poodle-food/196730-dogs-dont-need-carbohydrates.html


Thank you for sharing your info though. I always like to take another look or re-visit some ideas in case there's something I missed the first time.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Having read a number of your comments on the forum, I was expecting a response from you, and I appreciate it. I have no issues with anyone who chooses to feed raw, partially, or 100%. No issues at all, which is why I finished my initial comment in the manner that I did. What works for one, may not work as well for another. It's all good. 

Having said that, I have never owned a dog that has had any noticeable health issues of any kind, from eating grains. Our last poodle passed at 17 yrs of age, from heart disease, and ate carbs/grains his entire life. Up until his last year he still played and acted like he was a pup most of the time. So how exactly again does grain negatively affect a poodles health & well being? 

Yes, dogs get their energy from protein, fat, and carbs. Do they require carbs, no, but clearly in a limited capacity carbs can be utilized as an energy source, along with fatty acids, while the amino acids (protein) are spared for more important things - like growth, reproduction, and regular day to day metabolic functions. IME carbs are not the issue, nor are grains, but more the quantity of those ingredients in the formula being fed. Certainly formulas that utilize excessive quantities of grain can result in health issues, but the same could be said about excessive protein, and excessive fat. It's all about balance. And as previously mentioned, some dogs do develop sensitivity issues with certain raw ingredients, grains, as well as many others, including various forms of protein. 

And the transparency of that balance that is displayed by some of todays manufacturers is light years ahead of where we were 30-40 yrs ago. Manufacturers that not only limit the carb ratio in their formulas, but actually post the exact percentage, so that consumers can see that only say 20% of the formula is comprised of actual carbs. From where I sit, this is an incredible advancement in the pet food industry. I hope that some day all pet food manufacturers follow suit, perhaps even being forced to via AAFCO. 


But my post was never about carbs vs anything, it was specifically about grain. Tens of millions of dog owners choose to feed kibble, and for those that do I was hoping some might read my comment, and pause for a moment, the next time someone goes off on an anti-grain crusade. 

Thanks


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I feed a combo of raw/kibble, and chose grain free because one of my dogs has a wheat/corn allergy. We thought the other had a chicken allergy, but he has no reaction to raw chicken, so the kibble I feed is grain free and chicken free just to cover all our bases.

the first dog I (really my parents) had lived 17 years on bargain brand dog food with plenty of grain. I very much agree with the idea that what is best for an individual dog is what should be fed. However, since dogs are undeniably carnivores, I also feel that the majority of their diet should be meat, and if that means lowering the grain content in food fed to dogs is most likely in their best interest.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

As a SPOO owner, I stick with grain free kibble because of bloat worries. I also watch water intake.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Re bloat .........

According to the study below, when comparing dry dog food the researchers found that while neither grains, soy, nor animal proteins increased the risk of bloat, foods containing an increased amount of added oils or fats do increase the risk, possibly due to delayed emptying of the stomach.


Raghavan M, Glickman N, Glickman L (2006). "The effect of ingredients in dry dog foods on the risk of gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs". Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association 42 (1): 28–36.



Again, just more bad press for grains, with no scientific data (that I'm aware of?) to back it up.


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

I don't have a problem with grains. This isn't a study and I'm not saying it as a blanket statement but what I, personally, have seen in my dogs and dogs of those around me is, no grain causing more issues than grain inclusive.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

(permission to cross post from another forum) 

I'm putting some posts up that someone else wrote that I thought were very good and that I now have come to understand and agree with. He apparently has read extensively in all kinds of veterinary literature and so forth. You might be interested. I stand by my belief _at this time_ that dogs do not need any carbohydrates, that their best energy and oxygenation is derived from fat, then protein. Carbohydrates, whether grains or vegetables/fruits just take up space where there could be more of what they need. There is no nutrient in fruits, veggies or grain that they don't get from a balanced prey model diet.

Here are a few of his posts: 




> I'm really non-ideological about things like a dog diet. I'm trying to follow the science and good reasoning to the best of my ability, and would switch positions in a heart-beat if there was good evidence to do so. I also know there are big limits to what we know on a scientifiic basis. We are all forced to make "educated guesses" when it comes to designing DIY dog diets. I have few doubts that a modified raw (PRM plus some small amount of plant based food) will be vastly superior to cereal-based kibble. So not "a hill to die on" for me.
> 
> I would like to know what the tipping point is where carbohydrates start to disrupt a dogs fat-burning metabolism. In higher quantities carbohydrates do negatively impact energy delivery, with an initial boost in blood glycogen followed by a crash. Same question on blood sugar levels and the insulin response. And wonder about the impact of sugars on teeth.
> 
> ...





> There was a study, sponsored IMS by the Iams Pet food company, where inactive "couch-potato" type dogs on a high carbohydrate diet were tested to see what their aerobic capacity (as measured by VO2 Max scores) was. Predictably, these dogs scored poorly.
> 
> Then, with no other changes in their routines, the dogs were moved over to a high protein high fat diet (not raw). After a time the dogs were re-tested, with dramatic improvements in VO2 Max scores.
> 
> ...





> We know via scientific studies that dogs fed high protein high fat diets perform much better than ones fed high carbohydrate diets. Carbohydrates interfere with the fat-burning metabolism, and produce short term bursts of energy followed by crashes.
> 
> What we don't have are studies comparing a pure PMR type diet with a similar diet that contains small additions of fruits and vegetables. I'd love to see the science. My best guess is that feeding plant based foods pulls away the percentage of optimal nutrients, spikes blood sugars, and provides nothing essential in the diet. The National Research Council, which is the scientific body upon whose work all feeding programs are based, says carbohydrates are not essential to a canine diet.
> 
> ...


Here, I had asked about the one meal a day concept vs two meals, especially with tiny dogs and hypoglycemia and here was his reply. And it's been working great. The dogs have sustained energy from no carbs, which cause glucose spikes (wear and tear on the canine pancreas) and only protein and fat. (kind of like the way humans ate at one time. Interestingly, archaeological evidence shows that when the agricultural era came a long and hunter gatherers started growing grain, that's when the bones start showing more arthritis and tooth decay, not before when people ate more meat, fat and barely any grain.) 




> Conjecture on my part, but with no carbs and fat as the primary fuel source (with protein secondary) I'd doubt the dog will suffer with hypoglycemia. The beauty of fat burning is that glucose is released slowly and steadily. No spikes like carbohydrates. The dogs should also lean out as fat burning is far more efficient. I would at least try it. My best is the energy goes up, especially as they get fully conditioned to fat-burning.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

another informative and I think, very interesting post... permission to share.

I had posted this article when I was investigating all this earlier on. http://www.dogsnatur...dogs-like-cats/

Then he replied and the bolded parts are quotes from the article:



> Why poorly reasoned? Let's dissect this fluff:
> 
> 1) Dana Scott's first point is to compare the dentition of cats and dogs.
> 
> ...



So my choice has derived from this and then some more research I've done in other places, read those articles you posted etc etc... and _most_ influential of all is what I see before my very eyes in my dogs' health and vitality, skin, teeth, hair, physical stamina and great muscle tone. There's been positive cures for my old dogs' several ailments. So, no...I won't be feeding unnecessary grain or other carbohydrates to my little carnivores.


Just for kicks, get a load of this: http://preymodelraw.com/topic/43-dental-benefits/


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## janet6567 (Mar 11, 2014)

I am certainly no expert, but have always purchased what I thought was a "high quality" dog food based on vet recommendations. After Maggie developed severe allergies (which my vet treated with antihistamines and steroids,) I switched to grain a grain free diet at the suggestion of my groomer who had see improvements in many of her clients' dogs after they went "grain free." I have seen a huge improvement in my two toy poodles' health after going "grain free." Maggie rarely has any problems now with allergies. I just wish I had made the switch sooner. Perhaps I could also have prevented Abbey's diabetes with a better diet. There will always be a debate about whether "grain free" is better or not. But I know for my two, it is.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

LOL, I have read pages & pages for years and years, with very little actual science to back up any of the claims. Ditto to finfish, an area that I worked in for close to a decade. The science in aquaculture shows the opposite, even for the species classified as carnivores. To which there are scores & scores of peer reviewed papers and studies. Limited amounts of carbs are readily assimilated and utilized by the vast majority of fish - but just like dogs are not a required nutrient. Some of these fish are valued in the many thousands of dollars, and live out very long and healthy lives. 


Pbeguiled, in your response you used the phrase "cereal-based kibble", but that's NOT what I am referring to. I'm pretty sure that I have been crystal clear in that area - all carbs, including grains, should be used/fed on a limited basis, same with fish. This isn't my first rodeo on this subject. Please go back and reread what I am saying. 

Allergies - same response, a dog can become sensitive over time to almost anything, but the more common the ingredient, the greater that chance for an allergic reaction. Personally I have never owned a dog that has become allergic to grains, but I currently own a Chihuahua cross that does not do well on chicken - of any form. That doesn't mean that I should never feed chicken to a dog ever again - just to be safe? 

So please - let's leave allergies out of this discussion or we will be here all day discussing all common ingredients used in current day foods. I covered that in my initial comment. Obviously some dog owners can't feed grains to their dogs due to sensitivities - but that is not an exclusive issue regarding just grains. 

And constantly stating over & over that ones own dogs have improved on diet XX doesn't prove anything either, I have seen hundreds of dogs live long healthy lives on foods that contained grains, some foods that most dog owners (myself included) would consider of very low quality. I am also old enough to remember farm dogs in the rural areas of Western Canada (back in the 60's-70's) that were raised on nothing but table scraps. Those folks could not afford kibble, and even if they could back in those days it would have been VERY high in grain content. All brands and formulas were back then. But most were simply fed what was left at the end of the day. Not a super healthy option, but hard to argue about how long many of these dogs lived, many with zero health issues. 

As stated, our last poodle lived to 17 yrs of age, and still played like a young pup up until his last year. His diet contained grains, but in a limited quantity. 
There are some good brands and formulas on the market that IMO keep their carb levels well within acceptable ratios. They are not at all "cereal based", but are "meat based". 

No offense, but I'm looking more for the science to disprove what I am saying, not just personal opinions. There is no argument that dogs started out as carnivores, but I believe that science has demonstrated that over thousands of years of domestication, into a new species, they have evolved, and adapted to be able to safely assimilate an appropriate amount (read limited) of carbs, including those derived from grains. That's where all of the science leads to.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I don't need a lot of science to know that canines don't meander around in fields of wheat or corn, grazing on grain. I won't repeat in detail the science that was already mentioned that dogs aren't designed to eat grain. (their alimentary canal, their digestive enzymes are limited, their teeth, jaws...not meant for grinding grain.) I don't need science when I see my dog's arthritis improve markedly within two weeks of starting a grain free, raw diet, his alopecia begin to clear up until almost all his hair has grown back, his horrible breath caused not by bad teeth, but by some digestive issue, completely go away. His stamina and energy level, his playfulness is all dramatically improved. If you want science, you'll have to look for it yourself. Studies take lots and lots of money to do. Fortunately for people who like to feed their dogs cereal, there are lots of studies done by those who can afford to back it up. Guess who mostly. Commercial dog food companies who use those inexpensive carbohydrates in great abundance to improve their profit. Their protein is not quality and all those fillers take away from what dogs really need. imo, of course.

Anyhow, happy feeding whatever you choose. I choose a species specific diet without grain even though dogs evolved along side humans and probably ate some grain. Just because they can, doesn't mean it's optimum. And I don't see any reason to feed grain to a canine. 

Btw: I had dogs live to be 18 on Purina dog chow too. Not arguing that dogs can live long on kibble. But their longevity may not necessarily be all dependent on their diet. It's how they feel that is important to me. My present dogs do best on a PMR diet.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

janet6567 said:


> I am certainly no expert, but have always purchased what I thought was a "high quality" dog food based on vet recommendations. After Maggie developed severe allergies (which my vet treated with antihistamines and steroids,) I switched to grain a grain free diet at the suggestion of my groomer who had see improvements in many of her clients' dogs after they went "grain free." I have seen a huge improvement in my two toy poodles' health after going "grain free." Maggie rarely has any problems now with allergies. I just wish I had made the switch sooner. Perhaps I could also have prevented Abbey's diabetes with a better diet. There will always be a debate about whether "grain free" is better or not. But I know for my two, it is.


I've heard of dogs with diabetes going on a PMR diet and the diabetes disappearing. Not saying that would necessarily happen with all dogs with diabetes. But I've read some success stories. And definitely, allergies, sensitivities...to an unnatural food for a canine carnivore are not surprising. Pancreatitis is another thing that may be aggravated by carbs since the pancreas is the only place amylase is produced and the pancreas then, has to work double time to produce enough. And that's near the end of the digestive process. With humans and other omnivores, the salivary amylase (which dogs lack) starts the digestive process immediately to break down starch. 

Anyhow, I'm glad your dog has fewer problems by taking grain out of her diet. They just don't need it imo.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

In regards to the study, I've not yet been able to access the full article (not in my University lab at the moment ) but the rather small sample size has me hesitating, as does the fact that I'm unable to see what breeds were both sample and control.

the first author also has another paper out (Diet-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs of high-risk breeds. - PubMed - NCBI) about how smaller meals can reduce bloat risk. From what I've read on the backs of labels, low-grain high-protein foods tend to have much small serving sizes. Of course one could also feed many small meals to reduce that risk, but it's an extra step reduction that isn't needed if not feeding high volume food full of fillers


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## someday (May 3, 2016)

I will admit that I haven't read most of the discourse on here because I've seen the same arguments from certain sides about a hundred times now; I'd just like to say I appreciate your perspective and your having information to back it up. I think people get very strongly into these latest studies without realizing that science is tentative. Even for humans: eggs are bad for you--oh wait no they're good. Chocolate is terrible-- oh wait actually a square a day will help whatever organ function. Fat is the devil!!! Oh wait, fat isn't actually so bad. 

I am always glad to hear from people with the benefit of *time*.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

I don't think it's grain , wheat and corn that is the actual factor. I think the over use is. To increase profits , grain has been overused and soy added to pump up the protein cheaply. Then meat all but but disappeared. Soy, wheat and corn have been found to be unnecessary, and replaced with higher quality ingredients. I personally like sweet potato and peas. I still want a higher protein % from meat, and not sneaked in.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

> Btw: I had dogs live to be 18 on Purina dog chow too. Not arguing that dogs can live long on kibble. But their longevity may not necessarily be all dependent on their diet. It's how they feel that is important to me.


Agreed. Did you not catch the part where I stated that our last poodle that lived to 17 years of age, and ultimately died from heart disease, played like a young pup up until his last year? Or that he had no health issues his entire life, until near the very end? 

And while he was not meandering around in fields of wheat or corn, grazing on grain, he also wasn't taking down Elk, and tearing up the flesh of the fresh kill with his little buddy the Chihuahua.  These are lap dogs amigo, not the killing machines that their forefathers of thousands of generations back were.


No need to be defensive, I stated up front that I have no bias in this discussion, and that I have no issue with whatever anyone chooses to feed their pets. It's all good. I said that, right? 

And while personal observations and personal feed trials are always important no matter the animal, science is also pretty big in my world. So if we can take the science, and match it up with real world experience, I think that's pretty valuable information - for everyone. 

And someday, thank you for that! I have lost count how many times over the years where something was stated to be *bad* for us, is later (oops) proven to be good. Except maybe smoking cigs. lol


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

RD, this is a very interesting topic. I've been looking unsuccessfully for an article from a veterinary source damning grains. Could the grain free formulations be driven by economics rather than science? We were feeding Flint River lamb and rice formula to our last dog on the advice of his vet dermatologist. When I was getting supplies in for Buck as a puppy, I wrote and asked why they didn't carry a grain free line. Wish I had saved their response, but my recollection was that they were not convinced that grain free had any merit. A year later, I got an email that they now had a line of grain free kibble.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I agree very much with the OP! I don't think grains are any worse than peas, legumes, and other fillers, unless a dog has a specific sensitivity to one of those ingredients. Any dog can develop an intolerance or sensitivity to any proteins including rice, peas, corn, soy, beef, etc. I did nutriscan testing on one of my girls who has a mild sensitivity to both lentils and rice. Another dog of mine was sensitive to soy, corn, wheat and lentils. I do have an issue with long term feeding of corn mostly because of aflatoxin concerns. 

My dogs eat pro plan when they are out showing with their handler. Here at home, they eat grain inclusive Fromm (because I can't stand all of the peas/lentils/legumes in the grain-free varieties!), or other grain-free, pea free foods (right now I like Sportdogfood Elite) plus some premade (Stella and Chewy's frozen and freeze dried) raw.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

> Could the grain free formulations be driven by economics rather than science?


Absolutely! 

I don't know why it comes as a shock to some consumers that all companies are in business to make $$$. That doesn't necessarily equate to them being the devil, or not caring about what their product does to the health of our pets. Of course they do, they are all in the business of having & hopefully keeping their customers happy - not something easily done in todays online climate, where social media rules the world. Also, most of these companies are full of employees who use the products they manufacture. 

I recall several yrs ago when a fish food manufacturer came out with his line of Grain-Free fish food, going so far to refer to it as Carb-Free! When I started to look over some of his ingredients etc, I had to laugh when I saw pea meal in almost every formula, the main ingredient in a couple of them. Carbohydrate free pea meal? No such thing! the owner decided to challenge me on a public forum that he was sponsoring, and where the owner of said forum invited me to take a closer look at this new super duper line of food. That discussion didn't end too well for him, and that company is no longer in business. Perhaps he came up with a better marketing angle under a new & improved name? lol


FYI ..... the term "filler" seems to get used a lot on dog forums, but the term is really a misnomer. In commercial feed nothing is a filler, everything found in each formula is there for a reason, not just to fill a void. Yes they are there as a lower cost alternative (for the most part) but IMHO, when used sparingly, they can still play an important part in the diet of the domestic dog, with no harm coming to the animals. 

To think otherwise, one would have to believe that all dog food manufacturers (as well as cat, fish, etc) are nothing more than money grabbing no goods , who have absolutely no concern about the health & welfare of ours and their pets. 

I also have no issue with more novel types of carbs, where sensitivity issues will be far less common. Especially if that equates to being lower on the glycemic index. 


The better companies out there spend a TON of money on research, and are constantly looking to improve their foods in what globally has become a multi billion dollar industry. Consumers no longer live in the dark, forums such as this make people look twice at everything. Unfortunately the closer scrutiny can turn some into fanatics, usually these types have never stepped foot in a manufacturing facility to see that the good ones are uber clean, almost a clinical setting, and every last ingredient and every last test along the way is checked several times over, before and after the process. They honestly really care, and while making $$$, are attempting to provide a superior product. 

This is all a step in the right direction! One of the best of the best is located just a couple hours north of me. Lucky me.


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## Poodlemanic (Jun 27, 2016)

We feed our five dogs Acana and raw, and they do very well on that. However, they definitely would be in the fields grazing corn and wheat if they could! They eat tomatoes like crazy from the garden, and love to dig potatoes after we've harvested, for the few little ones we left behind. But also, deer poop is their favorite snack, sooo--doesn't prove anything, just an observation


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

I groom dogs, so I see a lot of them every day. I also have a dog (non-poodle), have several poodle "nieces," and have had dogs my whole life. These are my observations. 

1. Longevity does not necessarily equal quality of life. My parents' last medium-sized dog made it to about 12 or 13 years old having eaten practically garbage her whole life. She ate corn-filled generic brand food after we got her at about age 4. What she ate before that was probably literal garbage until that point. She was overweight, greasy, dander-y with nasty skin, and lethargic. I see senior dogs all the time that are in the late years of their life, but have similar issues. Yeast and bacterial infections, obesity, diarrhea and constipation, and lethargy beyond what comes with age. 
2. BUT these dogs don't all eat the same low-quality kibble. Some even eat grain free (Purina, but grain-free all the same). It seems like most dogs have unique digestive capabilities. 
3. My dog struggled with diarrhea from about 12 weeks of age, until about 16 weeks when I decided to feed her raw. I'd slowly transition her food, but she'd start having diarrhea. So I'd feed her raw goats' milk and/or yogurt for a day, then give her a small amount of kibble the next day with lots of goats' milk, and she'd immediately get sick again. Since she's been on raw, I've tried adding both fresh and processed plant matter (Sojos) to her food, but she has no interest in eating it and it doesn't seem to do anything for her besides make her poop more loose. My parents' new dog (poodle mix) had a similar issue. She ate grain-inclusive food, but constantly struggled with digestive issues. My parents switched to grain free + raw, but then she had skin problems. Now they feed a kibble that includes rice as well as feeding her raw, and she seems to be doing fine. 
4. So, I would say that it's the quality of the food you're feeding combined with its overall nutritional value that is really important, as well as tailoring your dogs' diet to fit their specific needs. But don't say, "my dog is 14 years old and doing great!" when his paws and skin are full of yeast, he's so fat he can hardly walk, and his teeth are rotting out, like I've heard from some people (not on this forum).


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

> Longevity does not necessarily equal quality of life.


I think that's just basic common sense, at least I hope so, or I'm on the wrong forum. 




> So, I would say that it's the quality of the food you're feeding combined with its overall nutritional value that is really important, as well as tailoring your dogs' diet to fit their specific needs.


I totally agree.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

RD. said:


> FYI ..... the term "filler" seems to get used a lot on dog forums, but the term is really a misnomer. In commercial feed nothing is a filler, everything found in each formula is there for a reason, not just to fill a void. Yes they are there as a lower cost alternative (for the most part) but IMHO, when used sparingly, they can still play an important part in the diet of the domestic dog, with no harm coming to the animals.


Hmmm...I'm not so sure about that. Lentils/legumes are often used to boost the protein content in foods. That protein content could be increased other ways, more meat would be one way. A lot of grain inclusive foods actually have more total meat content than grain free, pea heavy foods! Many of these foods marketed as meat rich foods (Acana, for one) are actually plant based foods without a very high meat content, thanks to the legumes. But, they are marketed as having lots of meat and people pay a high amount for these foods and believe they are getting a food that is mostly meat. I'll feed a grain inclusive, meat based food any day over a grain free, plant based food.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

I'm not following your logic, Millie? While math has never been my forte, how exactly is this Acana formula a plant based food, low in meat? 

http://acana.com/our-foods/heritage/puppy-small-breed/

Fresh chicken meat (16%), chicken meal (13%), turkey meal (12%), red lentils, whole green peas, fresh chicken giblets (liver, heart, kidney) (7%), chicken fat (7%), fresh whole eggs (4%), fresh whole flounder (4%), herring meal (3%), herring oil (2%), sun-cured alfalfa, green lentils, field beans, whole yellow peas, pea fiber, fresh chicken cartilage (2%), dried brown kelp, fresh whole pumpkin, fresh whole butternut squash, fresh whole parsnips, fresh kale, fresh spinach, fresh mustard greens, fresh turnip greens, fresh whole carrots, fresh red delicious apples, fresh Bartlett pears, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, fresh whole cranberries, fresh whole blueberries, chicory root, turmeric, milk thistle, burdock root, lavender, marshmallow root, rose hips, enterococcus faecium.


While lentils definitely add some plant protein to the formula, they also add vitamins, minerals, and fiber - all essential in a dogs diet. That's not "filler". And MEAT, is the primary source of protein, and the main make up of the food. Feel free to crunch the numbers.


Same Acana line, this being the adult small breed formula.

Fresh chicken meat (12%), chicken meal (12%), turkey meal (12%), red lentils, whole green peas, field beans, chicken fat (5%), fresh chicken giblets (liver, heart, kidney) (4%), herring meal (4%), fresh whole eggs (4%), fresh whole flounder (4%), herring oil (2%), sun-cured alfalfa (2%), green lentils (2%), whole yellow peas, pea fiber, fresh chicken cartilage (1%), dried brown kelp, fresh whole pumpkin, fresh whole butternut squash, fresh whole parsnips, fresh kale, fresh spinach, fresh mustard greens, fresh turnip greens, fresh whole carrots, fresh red delicious apples, fresh Bartlett pears, freeze-dried chicken liver, freeze-dried turkey liver, fresh whole cranberries, fresh whole blueberries, chicory root, turmeric, milk thistle, burdock root, lavender, marshmallow root, rose hips, enterococcus faecium.


Again, you might want to take a closer look at the actual numbers. Most manufacturers won't even share actual percentages. Kudos to Acana for their transparency.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

RD. said:


> I'm not following your logic, Millie? While math has never been my forte, how exactly is this Acana formula a plant based food, low in meat?
> 
> http://acana.com/our-foods/heritage/puppy-small-breed/
> 
> ...


The Singles line of Acana, the only line I feed due to it being limited ingredient, is PLANT BASED. I do not recall saying that it was "low in meat"... 

"Judging by its ingredients alone, Acana Singles (USA) looks like an above-average dry product.

But ingredient quality by itself cannot tell the whole story. We still need to estimate the product’s meat content before determining a final rating. 

The dashboard displays a dry matter protein reading of 31%, a fat level of 19% and estimated carbohydrates of about 42%.

As a group, the brand features an average protein content of 31% and a mean fat level of 19%. Together, these figures suggest a carbohydrate content of 42% for the overall product line.

And a fat-to-protein ratio of about 63%.

Above-average protein. Above-average fat. And below-average carbs when compared to a typical dry dog food.

When you consider the protein-boosting effect of the numerous legumes and alfalfa, this looks like the profile of a kibble containing a moderate amount of meat.

Bottom line?

Acana Singles (USA) is a plant-based dry dog food using a moderate amount of named meats and meat meals as its main sources of animal protein, thus earning the brand 4.5 stars."
Acana Singles Dog Food (USA) | Review | Rating | Recalls

FYI - Adult small breed formula is not sold in the US nor is puppy. Also, actual percentages for meat are not shared for the US formulations.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Disappointing Trend In Rising Pet Food Market

Grain Free equals Peas, Peas and More Peas


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I agree with what's in those articles. Disgusting, huh. Grains are not necessary in a canine's diet and can cause unnecessary wear and tear on the pancreas, cause glucose spikes and take the place of more of what a dog actually needs. The blood glucose being high, which it is with a high carbohydrate diet of most commercial food is the cause of all kinds of potential health issues.

This is what my dogs ate last night for dinner.



This is some of what they eat every meal. I don't blame anyone for not feeding this way. It's a lot more work and time spent fixing it up for them. But I hope everyone is careful in what they choose to feed. A whole lot of commercial food is not very healthy. For one, it's cooked. Lots of nutrients go bye bye under heat. Even if they say it's not from China, the vitamins are usually because they come in a combination "package" and that's only from China from what I understand. I don't trust China. There have been too many recalls and horrors for me...




Plus beef liver, kidney, lung, spleen and other organ meats rotated.

It's funny...when I began looking into this raw feeding, it seemed so complicated and scary to get started. Now, it's so basic, so simple and so healthy. When I look at all the literature on these commercial foods, Wow! It's mind boggling...all the many, many ingredients and percentages of this and that, all the vitamins and minerals they have to put back in after destroying them first. How very complicated it is to choose which one... compared to feeding a species specific diet. Meat, bone, organ in approximately the right percentages each day, balancing out to be correct by the end of the week. That's it. Simple. Nutritious, fresh, not processed. My dogs do fantastically on a prey model diet. They can keep their peas, their chicken liver "flavor" and cereal as far as I'm concerned.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

TruthAbout ........ LMAO puleeeeese. Facts written by a true fanatic, who seemingly has an agenda to save the world. It would help if she got some of her so called acts straight, such as phytic acid & lectin levels are typically diminished to zero, once processed. Most grains work this way, and the anti-nutritional factors found in some of these substances only become an issue when fed in a RAW state, and even then it would have to be on a regular basis, in an excessive quantity. 

Honestly, I wish raw feeders would relax, they don't have to attempt to save the world by making sheet up as they go along, or pushing the raw agenda by repeating the same nonsense over & over, about amylase produced in the mouth, exploding pancreas, etc-etc. 



> Even if they say it's not from China, the vitamins are usually because they come in a combination "package" and that's only from China from what I understand.


Well, you understand wrong - more totally bogus misinformation. Vitamin premixes are also sold by various companies based in North America. 

Again, I have no issue with those that choose to feed raw, but when I read a lot of the various literature out there, some of it sounds a lot like the people that some of you apparently seem to despise - corporate America aka dog kibble manufacturers. Much of the facts presented by the raw crowd are based on zero scientific data, and while good intentions are most likely the case, a LOT of false & misleading information is being presented. 

We all love our pets here, no need to go on a crusade every time someone posts about nutrition, or feeding their dog, in a manner that is not the same as you choose. If you are going to go that route, in the very least do some serious homework, or be prepared to get schooled by those who have. 


Ps - Millie I have never looked at any of the US based Acana foods, as I live in Canada. One thing I will add to the dogfoodadvisor stats, and this is just a minor add on, one cannot go exactly by numbers presented in a min/max state. Pet foods are inspected by State regulatory bodies, and numbers will reflect a safety margin above/below the "typical" analysis, so that what is guaranteed on the label is always factual. As an example, if the protein min on the label is 33%, chances are the typical analysis is 35-36%. Same with fat. If the fiber content is listed as 5% max, it will typically be 3-3.5%. This may not change a LOT in the final results, totally depends on the formula, but it will always make at least some difference. In some cases, it could be a fair bit, it really depends on the manufacturer and how much disclosure they want when releasing information to the public, and their competitors. 

And, I do not personally view fiber in a dog food, in the same manor as I do carbohydrates. I understand that sites reasoning behind adding it in as part of the "total" carb picture, but IMHO, in dog food there is a big difference between fiber, and carbs added in as protein, or as a source of quick energy. Fiber is generally a non issue, and removing that from the carb picture will also make a significant difference in the overall rating of each of their foods ratings.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

RD. said:


> TruthAbout ........ LMAO puleeeeese. Facts written by a true fanatic, who seemingly has an agenda to save the world. It would help if she got some of her so called acts straight, such as phytic acid & lectin levels are typically diminished to zero, once processed. Most grains work this way, and the anti-nutritional factors found in some of these substances only become an issue when fed in a RAW state, and even then it would have to be on a regular basis, in an excessive quantity.
> 
> Honestly, I wish raw feeders would relax, they don't have to attempt to save the world by making sheet up as they go along, or pushing the raw agenda by repeating the same nonsense over & over, about amylase produced in the mouth, exploding pancreas, etc-etc.
> 
> ...



Okay, I'm bowing out. I noticed a combative tone from your first reply to me, so I'll not continue posting. I'm really not interested in arguing. Or crusading?!?! I am sooooo far from having any interest in that. My dogs eat Pro plan, they eat raw, they eat grain free Acana, they eat grain inclusive Fromm. They eat canned, they eat human food. I just wanted to share that I don't believe grains are necessarily problematic, certainly not any more than any other carbohydrate added to kibble (which is NECESSARY to create kibble).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Okay, I'm bowing out. I noticed a combative tone from your first reply to me, so I'll not continue posting. I'm really not interested in arguing. Or crusading?!?! I am sooooo far from having any interest in that. My dogs eat Pro plan, they eat raw, they eat grain free Acana, they eat grain inclusive Fromm. They eat canned, they eat human food. I just wanted to share that I don't believe grains are necessarily problematic, certainly not any more than any other carbohydrate added to kibble (which is NECESSARY to create kibble).


Same here. (except I think grains aren't so great) I don't care what people feed their dogs as long as they feed them. I do not have any agenda to "push" raw food diets. I'm just enthusiastic and excited about a relatively new thing for me...and how I think they're great and how well my dogs have done. I don't like the :arrogant: tone either so I'm also done here. It doesn't interest me either at this point. :wave:


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Millie ..... the _vast majority _of my last post was not directed at you, not at all. The links you posted, well it is what it is - a lot of bad info being supplied to consumers who don't understand what the heck is going on. That article about peas was a classic example of how a little bit of info can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Ditto to the nonsense that I have read elsewhere, on this forum and others. 

Now I am off to explain to my granddaughter the evils of eating peas.....


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## kmart (Apr 28, 2015)

RD. said:


> Millie ..... the _vast majority _of my last post was not directed at you, not at all. The links you posted, well it is what it is - a lot of bad info being supplied to consumers who don't understand what the heck is going on. That article about peas was a classic example of how a little bit of info can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Ditto to the nonsense that I have read elsewhere, on this forum and others.
> 
> Now I am off to explain to my granddaughter the evils of eating peas.....


You sound like a particularly indoctrinated Bill-Jac rep I once had to listen to for work. 

P.S. Peas actually aren't all that good for you. If you need to force your kids to eat a vegetable, it should be probably be broccoli or spinach. Now THERE'S a controversy to get you started on.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

I never forced my kids to eat anything, and I certainly never felt the need to warn them about the evils of eating peas, either. Then again I've never known anyone that would eat bowlfuls of peas at a time. And if I had to choose, I would pick broccoli over spinach. lol


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I've been following this thread for a while, and I guess I'll chime in. I am of a very similar mindset to CharismaticMillie. I don't think grains are any worse than any other carbohydrate, but I don't usually feed foods with really high carbohydrate content. 

Hans usually eats 50/50 raw (grind I make myself) and kibble. Sometimes he gets only kibble and sometimes he gets kibble and canned. I rotate kibbbles frequently, and mostly feed Wysong (Epigen and Optimal lines), Ziwipeak (not really kibble -it's air dried), and Nature's Logic. Some of those have grain and others do not. The main reason for those brands is that Hans likes them enough to eat them enthusiastically and he does well on them (and I think they are quality foods). He actually wags his tail and acts excited when I feed him now (kibble or raw), he doesn't get hunger pukes from skipping meals, he doesn't have any other tummy issues, he's nice and healthy looking and frisky. I just want him to eat a reasonably healthy diet and feel good, and I want him to like what he's eating. He never wagged his tail or looked happy about food before, and we tried a lot of foods. So our plan may be a bit odd, but it works for us.


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

Just thought that I would add this to the discussion.......


http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0148899&type=printable




> Overtime, and via cohabitation, the canine diet has been transformed from the carnivorous diet of its ancestor, the wolf, to a diet more closely matching that of omnivorous humans [13].
> 
> This transformation increased variation in the domesticated dog’s diet, potentiating impact on numerous biological pathways. This increase in variation was extreme in some cases: isotopic analysis has shown that by 7000BC in northern China, 65–90%of domesticated dogs’ diets were comprised of millet alone [5].However, the on set and sources of dietary variation were not universal—in 3500–2000BC, dogs living among Korean shell midden cultures received the majority of their calories from marine mammals and other fish [16].Because humans populated a variety of habitats with different dietary staples, dog breeds from different places also consumed diets composed of unique combinations of food items. For many breeds, dietary changes resulted in increases in novel food constituents that may have required new, better, or more digestive mechanisms, there by exerting differential selective forces on dogs living among different groups of humans. For example, starch digestion presented a new dietary challenge to which the dog likely adapted through alteration of three key genes in the starch digestion pathway[15].


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## RD. (Jul 19, 2016)

And another on amylase and its association with diabetes and dogs .....

Amylase activity is associated with AMY2B copy numbers in dog: implications for dog domestication, diet and diabetes - Arendt - 2014 - Animal Genetics - Wiley Online Library



> Testing for an association between diabetes and AMY2B
> Among the dogs analyzed above, reliable diabetes incidence rates have been estimated for 16 of 20 breeds (Fall et*al. 2007; Table*1). To investigate a potential link between AMY2B copy number and susceptibility to DM, we first compared mean copy numbers and DM incidence across these breeds. We specifically note that incidence is high (ranked second) in Samoyeds, which generally carry few AMY2B copies; however, we see no general association between low copy numbers and high DM incidence when all breeds are analyzed jointly (Pearson's correlation test, one-tailed P*=*0.30).




That study includes poodles, so well worth a read for those concerned about dietary starch, and diabetes.


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