# Should I Rehome my spoo?



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Is she your first dog ? First puppy ? First of all let me say that spaying will have absolutelyno effect on her behavior. None (except for the will to mate of course). Spaying is for health reasons, not for behavior. There are advantages to waiting after the first heat, maybe you should look into that.

Second, I don’t have a standard but I have read many members stories who say their dogs quiet down around the age of three. So you’re far from done.

I doubt your dog is being aggressive, she sounds to me like she’s just a rambunctious puppy who needs more discipline and maybe exercise.

I can’t tell you what to do, but be aware that everything that is happening was foreseeable and will most likely happen with any other puppy. Some are a little more mellow, some are more active, but they all go through the same phases and have basically the same need for discipline, routine, a firm hand and love.

Now you need to decide if you want to out the time and effort into your dog so she can become a good companion for your family.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I feel your pain, and I'm sorry you're struggling. There's a lot going on here, so I'll start with this:

Unfortunately, you've been led sorely astray by some well-meaning folks. Your puppy isn't challenging your position in the house. She's probably looking for consistency and clearly defined boundaries and expectations, but that's not the same thing. "Alpha" training has been thoroughly debunked. It's outdated and potentially dangerous. At the very least, it's damaging your relationship with your dog.

Your puppy is probably extremely confused about your sudden change in demeanour.

If you want to keep your puppy, you need to find a well-respected positive reinforcement trainer, and you need to do it right now. If not, your puppy should be going straight back to the breeder for rehoming. Time is of the essence.

As for your husband's role in this, puppy blues is a very real thing. I empathize. But his decision to check out at such a pivotal moment in your pup's life was not fair to your dog or to you. I would have a hard time letting go of my feelings about that.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

And no - as Dechi said, you're not even close to the end of your puppy's adolescence. It's just beginning!

But for all its challenges, adolescence brings big leaps in maturity and really begins solidifying your bond. It's an exhausting, rewarding time, and a big part of what you signed up for when you chose to get a dog. 

For perspective, I started this thread _6 months ago_, and life with my teenage poodle is no easier:









Poodle Adolescence - Support Group


Tips? Tricks? Commiseration? Bring it on! I wasn't expecting it quite so soon, but Peggy's 26th week has brought us a whole new level of dog. Eeek! It kicked off with the worst puppy class we've ever had. Usually after a rocky start, she settles right in. But she was wild-eyed from the first...




www.poodleforum.com





But it's more fun!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I agree with the previous responses. Your puppy is only 8 months old, actually a bit early to spay, and I would wait until 12 months or later if she were my dog. Think of her as a thirteen year old child. Her body and brain are changing, and she's full of new feelings. She's pushing boundaries and trying to find out if she can get her way, and she needs you to be both her friend and her parent right now. Poodles are very smart dogs, and very sensitive. They thrive on routine, structure, and firm boundaries. But a system of harsh punishments can make a sensitive dog shut down. This is a time when she _absolutely needs_ somebody to be there for her, and to be on her side to guide her. If you don't want to be that person, it is truly in her best interests to return her to her breeder to find a home that is better suited.

It's hard to tell if she is truly being aggressive. My own dog is very strong-willed and hard-headed and was eager to gleefully attack anybody playfully. It didn't really stop until around 9 months. He would sometimes do the leaping, lunging, and circling behavior, but all in play. He is also a play growler. So I could easily see what you describe simply being a playful behavior. Poodles are clowns and they are very manipulative. If they find an opportunity for a game, they will take it.

Maturity won't come for another couple years, so it's a long road. If I was to speak about your husband's actions it wouldn't be with kind words. Raising a puppy by yourself is really hard work and it's a shame the two of you can't be working together. Dogs can be amazing companions but they take a lot of work to raise properly and if you can't give this puppy what she needs it's okay to admit it and make sure she goes somewhere that will be what she needs. If you do want to put in the work, I agree that a good experienced trainer will be very important. When possible, you may also benefit from group classes with other dog owners. It can be helpful to see others going through the same challenges that you are experiencing. Good luck, it is a hard decision to make.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree with Peggy- have you consulted with your breeder? A good breeder will want the dog to come back to them. Plus they have lots of experience raising dogs.

I also agree that the whole alpha leader thing is not going to take you anywhere you want to go. You have a poodle, not a werewolf. She didn't read Machiavelli.

Your husband's unhappiness with the situation is probably contributing to the problems. Being a young creature, she wants attention. If she can't get good attention, she will settle for bad. She will keep trying to push his buttons until he reacts. 

Games are a really good way to channel bad behavior into good behavior. Here's an example. Earlier this week my husband asked me how to stop out puppy from biting him. The little twerp had lunged, caught my husband with a sharp little puppy tooth, and drawn blood. When I went outside I found the puppy acting like a complete maniac. He tried to hump my leg. He jumped and tried to bite my hands. It was pretty obvious how he has slipped and nipped my husband. He was just wired.

The first thing I did was to shift my leg so he bounced off my knee, hard. That ended the humping attempt. Next I put my hands in my pockets. That ended the hand biting game. Then, since he clearly wanted to play hard, I did some challenging off leash heeling with him. I walked and ran all over our yard. I jumped up on benches and rocks. I climbed stairs. I changed directions abruptly. Every time I did something that require him to think and adjust, I looked down to my left. If I saw a puppy looking back up at me I would click and give him a treat. 

The first couple times my hand came out of my pocket he tried to nip. Then he soon figured out there was no reward in nipping. The reward only came when he put himself at my left heel. He started working really hard to follow along as I moved around the yard. To me, this was training. To him, this was a game of chase in which he got treats when he caught me the right way. After 15 minutes of this work my very bad puppy was acting like a very good puppy.No anger, no punishment, just play.


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

My current spoo is 13 months old. He's a pretty laid back guy and has been quite easy to raise (he's also spoo #4 and dog #many), but the week that he turned 8 months was the week that he completely forgot how to walk on a loose leash. We had to go back to square one and retrain him like he had never been trained before. It's just an adolescence thing. My husband was upset by it because the last spoo walked like she was invisibly attached to your left knee -- or at least she walked that way in her later years and my husband had forgotten about her puppy hijinks.

The alpha dog, "be a leader" thing is bogus. I doubt she's being aggressive, more likely just a silly teenager. Don't lose patience with her, she's only got a brain the size of a lemon. Just stay calm. If you don't like what she's doing to get your attention, then _don't give her attention. _Let her calm down and then reward her. Use lots of training treats. You have to figure out how to explain to her what you want her to do. There are lots of youtube videos to help with training.

Contacting her breeder is a good idea, he or she should be able to help. You probably signed a contract that said that you would return her if you couldn't keep her.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

You do have a challenge on your hands and It's not just the poodle . If your husband isn't willing to help, will he at least not hinder? I've been there myself. If you believe that he'll either come around or at least not be negative toward the pup then it could work. It's hard for a poodle to not be liked or loved by their whole family. Will your husband be ok with the idea that the pup may continue to try to initiate a relationship? 

What's a typical day like for you and Poodle, from wake up to go to sleep? 

The Alpha concept came from one researcher in the 1930's who studied captive wolves. Someone finally got the idea to study wolves in the wild more recently and it turns out that they're a family pack structure. 

Even feral dogs follow not the strongest but the friendliest of the group, and "dominance" is a very fluid concept depending on a lot of things. It varies. 

Positive reinforcement training is called for. Poodles are smart and sensitive so here's a bunch of training resources for you:

Ian Dunbar





Dog Star Daily







www.dogstardaily.com




A lot of free info

Susan Garrett





Say Yes Dog Training – Simple, five minute games that will transform your dog







recallers.com












Susan Garrett's Dog Training Blog


Susan Garrett's positive reinforcement dog training blog. For puppies, rescue dogs, family pets, agility dogs, and all dog sports.




susangarrettdogagility.com












Dogs That are Home for Life


Creating better lives for dogs and the people who love them. Dog training and education with Susan Garrett and the Say Yes Dog Training Team.




dogsthat.com












Home School The Dog


Join us for games of choice to play while you are homeschooling your dog.




dogsthat.com




A lot of free info
Periodically offers free online video course
"It's Yer Choice" impulse control
Crate games
Look At That

Kikopup YouTube Training videos








Dog Training by Kikopup


Professional dog training videos created by world renowned trainer Emily Larlham. I'm not going to feed you want you want to hear to get more views. I am goi...




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Or search YouTube for Kikopup + training topic

Zak George YouTube Training videos








Zak George’s Dog Training Revolution


This is the official YouTube channel of me, dog trainer Zak George! :) In order to get the most out of my videos, I recommend that your order my book here: h...




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Karen Pryor Clicker Training


https://www.clickertraining.com/library?source=kpctnavbar



AKC training - get certified or just good things to know and train
AKC Canine Good Citizen - mix or pure breed








Canine Good Citizen (CGC) – American Kennel Club


AKC’s Canine Good Citizen program is the gold standard of behavior for dogs in our communities. One million dogs, purebred and mixed breed, have earned CGC.




www.akc.org





AKC Trick Dog - mix or pure breed - get certified or just fun things to learn








AKC Trick Dog – American Kennel Club







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Please make sure that any trainer you bring in is using Positive training practices. These are based on 
*Operant conditioning (OC)search for term

The process of changing an animal’s response to a certain stimulus by manipulating the consequences that immediately follow the response. The five principles of operant conditioning were developed by B.F. Skinner. Clicker training is a subset of operant conditioning, using only positive reinforcement, extinction, and, to a lesser extent, negative punishment.*

Stay in touch please! Hoping for a happy outcome for all of you. 🤞


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I would call the breeder and give them the option of taking her back to rehome. Since your husband clearly doesn't want her and it appears it really is too much for you I personally think its best. I don't know where you are located but you could also contact Creole Poodle Rescue , [email protected]. If not near they can recommend a contact for you. I trust them and my next poodle will more than likely be a rescue from them.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Thank you all for responding and giving me your thoughts. Your input has been very helpful. I followed the link to the adolescent poodle discussion. That was a true eye opener! 

Dechi: This our first poodle. We raised a collie/lab mix and a chocolate lab from puppies. So very different! Their puppyhood was non eventful compared to this poodle puppyhood. Really basic and easy after housebreaking. But, I can recognize a challenge from her vs playfulness. 
Peggy, Raindrops and Jbean: Good to know it is a long haul through adolescence with these pups. I like to deal with reality, not wishful thinking. And, I am glad all that alpha stuff is a crock. I didn’t like it. It gives the relationship a bad twist and I think it unhealthy. Being the leader because I am friendly and a friend to her is something I can deal with. Today I have returned to my usual demeanor...what a relief!
cowpony: I do not have the option to return her to the breeder. Whether it is true or not, I have heard a bad ending comes to her older pups that do not sell. When I had trouble with car sickness, I emailed her about Dramamine and she never responded. I think she is just in the business of selling right now. Thanks for the heel game suggestion. She loves games and so do I. Can’t find enough for us!
Rose: thank you for all the links. I will keep educating myself.
Mufar: I don’t blame you for giving up on me. I have been going day to day. Today has been very good so far. Of course, it is just beginning. I am not giving up on my husband either. 
All: I might be feeling very differently right now if you guys had not written, though. And, after reading some posts in the adolescent poodle discussion, I feel in many ways I have got it lucky. She is really a dear thing. This all started so abruptly after a difficult grooming and because the lady said I could ruin her if I didn’t do better by her or give her away. I never imagined ruining her. I had only imagined that it might harm her little soul if I DID give her away. Funny. I will see how the trainer goes on Monday. That is my short term plan right now...make it to Monday. But, she is being a sweet pup today so far, not a crazy adolescent, so I have hope. Thank you for that!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hope with two feet planted in reality is wonderful! Poodles are sensitive and when they feel accepted and loved, they give their all. Not perfectly lol, but all. 
Look into Versatility In Poodles website




__





Certificate Rules - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org




for some different types of activities that you might get involved in. A different approach might give your husband some new ideas of ways to engage with your poodle. 
Btw, what's her name, and, pictures please?


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## Jbean (Feb 18, 2019)

That sounds great! I was glad to read your reply. Puppy raising can be tough. Most dogs want to communicate with us, but we have to figure out how to communicate with each one differently. Training treats and happy, squeaky voices are almost universally successful though.

Finding a good groomer can be difficult too. Some groomers don't like to clip wiggly adolescents and some won't clip spoos. Your groomer may also just have been having a bad day, but since her training recommendation was not so good, I think that finding a replacement groomer would be a good idea.

The McCann Dog Training videos on youtube are my favorites.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Regarding the early spay, there's been a lot of studies done suggesting timing for best long term health is to wait til physical maturity has been reached. This is one


http://vipoodle.org/wp-content/themes/vip/pdf/research/HartUCDavisPoodles+Report+7-15-16.pdf


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Gladsome I'm happy to hear you're feeling better about things! I want to agree with Jbean that I think that groomer should not be working with your puppy. It is possible that your puppy is particularly badly behaved on the grooming table, but a good groomer will take things slowly and try to work with you on how to teach her good grooming behavior at home. There are some groomers that try to dominate dogs and force them into submission, and it sounds like that may have been what happened. It's much better for the dog to take breaks and not have too much forced on them at once. Frequent brushing at home and desensitization exercises will probably be very helpful to create a good grooming experience for her.

About returning dogs to breeders... are these rumors something you've heard about your particular breeder? All responsible and reputable breeders have a clause in their puppy contract that requires that the puppy not be sold or rehomed without their approval. This is because they love each of the puppies they produce and want to make sure they never end up in a shelter, breeding mill, or a home that is a poor fit. I know my own dog's breeder said she once drove across the country to reclaim a dog whose owner had passed away so that the dog wouldn't be rehomed with somebody she considered inappropriate. A puppy mill or backyard breeder would not be trustworthy though, and I could understand not returning a dog if that is the case.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

gladsome said:


> cowpony: I do not have the option to return her to the breeder. Whether it is true or not, I have heard a bad ending comes to her older pups that do not sell. When I had trouble with car sickness, I emailed her about Dramamine and she never responded. I think she is just in the business of selling right now. Thanks for the heel game suggestion. She loves games and so do I. Can’t find enough for us!
> 
> .....
> 
> And, after reading some posts in the adolescent poodle discussion, I feel in many ways I have got it lucky. She is really a dear thing. This all started so abruptly after a difficult grooming and because the lady said I could ruin her if I didn’t do better by her or give her away. I never imagined ruining her. I had only imagined that it might harm her little soul if I DID give her away. Funny. I will see how the trainer goes on Monday. That is my short term plan right now...make it to Monday. But, she is being a sweet pup today so far, not a crazy adolescent, so I have hope. Thank you for that!


Ewww, it's too bad the breeder is less than stellar. If she regards the puppies as only a cash stream, she probably didn't bother doing any of the early handling that would make grooming much easier now. That's not fair to you or the pup. I'm glad you are getting a trainer involved.

As you are playing games, remember that puppies go through moods throughout the day, as their energy wanes and gets replenished by naps. Between 6 and 8 PM I really can't do much of anything that requires my boy Galen to have self control. He's tired and cranky and hyper. We call it the witching hour. I play games like fetch and the heeling game, as they let him burn off energy while still giving him a bit of strucure. Once he wears out he goes into his crate for the night with a snack.

In your case it sounds like you have a special challenge around handling, grooming, and possibly interactions with strangers. Getting held down at the groomers might have been a setback. That's a problem. Poodles need a lot of grooming, and you don't want this escalating to the point where you need to sedate the dog to give her necessary care. I would use clicker training to reinforce that handling is a Good Thing.

During a mellow time of day (not the witching hour) take 20 treats and practice touching her. Start by calmly touching her shoulder. Before she has time to react, click, take your hand away, and give her a treat. Repeat. Touch her other shoulder. Click, treat. Slowly switch towards more controversial body parts. _Do not click and treat if she mouths you or shifts away. Start over with the shoulders._ Withers, click, treat. Head, click, treat. Ears, click, treat. Neck, click, treat. Point of hips, click, treat. Work your way towards touching her most ticklish and sensitive spots: her muzzle, her chin, between her toes, the insides of her hind legs. 

Once she tolerates you touching her all over, increase the duration. Rest your hand on her shoulder for a full second before clicking. Then two seconds. Then five. _Again, no click and treat if she mouths you or shifts away. Switch back to a short touch. _Work your way towards being able to wrap your hand around her muzzle and to spreading her toes apart without her pulling away. 

Add grooming tool sounds and feels as she gets used to you. Turn a hair dryer on and off. Click, treat. Turn a shaver on and off. Click, treat. Leave the devices on for a full second, then two. Point the hairdryer at her shoulder for an instant. Click, treat. Touch her paw with the vibrating shaver. Click, treat. _Return to a less intrusive activity if she pulls away._ The idea here is to build trust and confidence. She should feel like she has the choice to permit handling, or not, and that allowing handling is always more rewarding.

Finally, once she is good with you, have your husband (if he will agree) and/or a cooperative friend start the same process. Start from the very beginning, with your helper priming the dog with the clicker. Remember, just because the dog agreed to be handled by you doesn't mean she agrees to be handled by anyone else. Do you let strange people put their hand on your butt? Work her up from the basics.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

Puppies are like children, husbands, and careers - there are a lot of uninformed and sometimes self-serving people willing to offer advice.

I've gotten a lot of sound advice here. Reading old threads can be a big help.

As far as your husband and the pup go, everyone I know is more stressed than normal with a virus-economy double whammy. He may need your patience too. (I'm sure my husband is having to give his patience a workout these days!)


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Rose, I couldn’t get myself to share her name before this...her name is Maisie. Sometime a picture... Thank you for the Versatility link. It looks wonderful. I will look for something similar here where I live. She and I would just love it.

Jbean, yes, I will use my squeaky voice...and check out the McMann YouTube videos. 

Raindrops, it was the groomer/ shelter owner who told me about the breeder. The breeder is AKC certified and has been in the business for over 20 years. She is in her mid-late 80’s now. When she didn’t respond to me, I was hoping she was well, to tell you the truth. I didn’t think anything negative about it. She really seemed to care deeply about her dogs. But, we didn’t sign anything about returning dogs to her that needed rehoming. At least it wasn’t discussed.

Cowpony, thank you for the detailed grooming desensitization method. She doesn’t mind petting and hugging and combing. Since the grooming, she hasn’t wanted me to look into her ear canal, although it was itching her. I used to be able to trim the ear hair. And, she is sensitive about her paws and toes. Just since the start of re-training, though, she has begun to let me wipe her feet when she comes in without too much mouthing. That is a great sign of progress! I used to have to have her chew on a stick or something for the wipe. Now I have her “stand” for the rear legs, and “sit” for the fore legs, and she is OK because she is following a command and knows a treat is coming. 

I hardly believe I have already seen progress! She got feisty when I told her it was time to go in this morning and wanted to lead her back in by the leash. She grabbed the short leash and started tug of war. I leaned against the house and waited her out. At last she sat (after 2-3 tries) and let me lead her in without further complaint. Yay!

I wrote in despair last night, and am stunned that she seems to have been ready, and perhaps waiting, for me to get my act together and help us through this together. I just wanted some good moments again with her, so I could start believing again. I am not afraid of working hard at it, but needed to have faith in the process. I have so much more to learn!

And, you have not only helped me, but also my sister indirectly, who acquired a poodle about the time that I did. They are just four days apart in age. My sister has had a death in her husband’s family this week, but I will share with her what you have all been so kind as to share with me very soon.

God bless you for being so generous and caring to spend your time and energies via this website to help others!

G


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Welcome to you, your husband and Maisie! There is quite an adventure ahead for you all... ⛈🌞🌈🎂🥩🍷🚗🌄🎉💞


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You can master this situation. There is a lot of good advise in this thread but there are also some sticky threads with good info on training too. I think as you are able to get some of the puppy nonsense under control things should get better with your husband too. 

I wish you success!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I advise everyone with a Spoo to get a flirt pole. Helps drain off some energy and can be used for training. Especially, impulse control because it’s such a fun.

My husband was not wild about Buck and there were plenty of days that I intentionally mispronounced his name. Instead of blaming him, I blamed myself for not having better training chops. I studied every resource mentioned in this thread, got a positive reinforcement trainer, and soldiered on. Now DH cooks for Buck and I don’t mispronounce his name quite as often. I wish I had started with poodles, instead of adorable, dim Scottish Terriers!


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

gladsome said:


> Since the grooming, she hasn’t wanted me to look into her ear canal, although it was itching her. I used to be able to trim the ear hair.


Hmm. I wonder if she has an ear infection. Groomers typically pluck the ear hair to keep the ears cleaner and reduce gunk buildup. Ironically, my boys Snarky and Pogo would come home with rip-roaring ear infections which would then require a vet visit and prescription ointment. (So much for preventative care!) Both would get very cross and snappish. Snarky, additionally,, became headshy for life. Getting a harness or martingale on him for a walk became a real struggle, as he didn't like anything going over his ears afterwards.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

cowpony said:


> Hmm. I wonder if she has an ear infection.


Very good point ! Even the best behaved poodle won’t let you mess with their ear when they have an infection. Get it checked.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

My Raven as a puppy was a huge pain in the rear! Lily CD RE from this group was a huge help to me and talked me off the ledge a few times. She was difficult to potty train, was mouthy and obnoxious, and got car sick until 10 months so it was hard to go anywhere. At almost 7, she is wonderful dog with very hard won obedience titles, however she is still headstrong and not nearly as willing to please as my collies had been. I seriously debated going back to collies for my second dog but found a male spoo needing to be rehomed who had been started in obedience and took the poodle plunge a second time. He is totally different temperament entirely. He is much less independent and headstrong. He is an happy active 2 yr old but has been wonderfully easy to live with after Raven put and end to his jumping her. I think if you stick it out with your spoo baby you will not be disappointed in the end. They do have a long adolescence but they are worth it eventually😜
Teri


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Gladsome...I am happy you are feeling better about your puppy..my post on rehoming was not because I gave up on you but you already got lots of good advise on training and ideas to make things better. Just an option if things didn't work out. I think its great your willing to give it another try. I think if your husband takes some time he will find that poodles are great at retrieving. My boy will jump 6 ft high in the air to retrieve ball I have thrown and will trot over to me and give it or toss it back, lol I'm sure he could do that with a bird too. Mine is 2 now going to be 3 in December, he really is more into learning now then he was as a puppy.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

I think the groomer skipped over the inside of the ears. They were still hairy when she came home and I did get some wax out of both and put some drops in them. I had bought some round tipped scissors earlier with the intent of cutting the ear hairs myself (due to Covid restrictions on groomers), but as of yet I can’t get that up close and personal. She is letting me at least flip her ear and look at the canal now. I am hoping they were just itchy, but will keep a look out for any signs of worsening. 
Mufar42,_ I _was giving up on me, and I didn’t project much pluck or courage to make anyone think I could follow through with what needed to be done. I was overwhelmed and thought I had to go all the way back to square one, but this time with a rebellious, obstinate creature. But, it turns out not. Maisie is liking the training and is already wanting to please...or at least get treats! Oh, and my husband is showing signs of progress, too...lol. He is showing interest, even if not planning to meet with the trainer tomorrow. That’s OK. Maisie and me...we got it! 
You guys have been so encouraging, and I know I have said it before, but I could say it over and over: thank you for your kindness and help when I was in great need of a listening heart. ♥


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Trainer Update. Well, it wasn’t as I expected. The trainer came. Maisie jumped all over him and was in general showing poor manners. But, of course he managed it all very well, and she settled down in the end. It was good to see how he did it.

But most all the rest of the time was spent on expounding on the benefits of using the e collar with her. I had been anticipating an introduction to clicker training. Basically, since she pretty much knows her commands, it is in the following of them that she needs encouragement. So she doesn’t decide when she is too busy or uninterested to do what I am asking. That is when the e collar can help nail down her response to commands. He said it should take about a month. That is very enticing. No jumping, humping, mouthing, circling, growling, running away, pulling on the leash in just one month’s time. Then, after a month or so, when she is good and consistent, she can even come off leash and follow my command, no matter what is tempting her to ignore it. But, only my commands. Only if you train with her will she respond with prompt obedience. (My husband would not have the same advantage of prompt obedience.) But, this is to get her through the long stretch of adolescence, and then when her brain is better adult wired, she will hopefully make good decisions on her own, even, I hope, when I am not around.

The one he recommends is the Einstein mini educator. $180. Oh boy! I am considering it, but right now I need some space to think. TMI in the last few days for my poor brain. Actually, he is OK if I don’t go the e collar way, just says the positive reinforcement alone is slower. Given that my husband is not on board, just wants a well mannered doggie as soon as possible, I feel a bit boxed in. But, I also see how headstrong this pup is, and I can grasp that making choices that are not good ones and having consequences for them should maybe not apply only to humans. It’s only for a month. And, it’s not even painful to her. Just a nudge to get her attention. My gut feeling is that it is the way to go for us. But, I am not making any hasty decisions anymore. I will think on it. This week has been over the top. I let Maisie off the leash after he left because she had to do her business pronto, and afterwards she was crazy. I finally caught her, she came in the house, a captured criminal, and straight away fell asleep on the floor. We are both weary...

I did look up reviews on this collar on amazon, and they are pretty great. 90% are 4 and 5 star. I think my problem now is two fold. He presented me with something I wasn’t expecting him to, and he did almost no hands-on training. I did learn by watching him and asking questions, so it wasn’t a waste. It is just one more thing this week that didn’t go as planned. That doesn’t necessarily mean it went badly...just different. 

Well, I didn’t know if this thread was still “live”, but wanted to update you and not start a new thread that you would never see. I will update you again in 2-3 weeks when I see the trainer again...I do plan to at this point...and at that time I will start a new thread, I guess, about it... I will call it Maisie and the Trainer, or something like that. Keep an eye out for it! 😉


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I say this with great love: This is NOT the trainer for you. Run. Away.

Our trainer wouldn't touch those collars with a ten foot pole because _she's_ the one people call after they've ruined their dogs with them. You need a trainer who's going to help you build a good relationship with your dog. 

Keep looking.

Reach out to local shelters to see who they work with. Post a request for recommendations on Nextdoor. I guarantee there's someone out there who can help.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

P.S. Your husband is likely not going to see those manners he so desires for another 1-2 years, and that's only if you both put in the work. 

Sure, he'll see glimpses of them. There'll be good days and good weeks. But your puppy is not a robot. She's a teenager who's lacking in education and has been confused by one family member who doesn't like her and another who's doing her best but hasn't settled on a method of training and therefore must seem extremely erratic and unpredictable. That's not fun for any dog, but really does damage to a sensitive poodle.

Please read this. Beginning to end. Even the parts that don't feel relevant.



https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/downloads/AFTER_You_Get_Your_Puppy.pdf



It will help you to see where you've zigged when maybe you should have zagged. It will help you to better understand what you're currently seeing from Maisie and will provide you with a foundation for more confidently (and consistently) moving forward.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

I agree with PtP. Ecollars are not the way to train puppies. Ecollars are not the way to train anything. They are for proofing behaviors the dog already knows. Find a different trainer who uses positive methods.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I agree. Swipe left. New trainer. 

I think there is a place and a purpose for e-collars. The place is in the hands of an experienced trainer. The purpose is to break a dog of a life threatening habit such as chasing cars or running livestock. Neither applies to your situation. Incorrectly using using a strong aversive such as an e-collar has the potential to set you up with fear aggression on top of all your other issues.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I agree with cowpony. there are reasonable uses for ecollars in the hands of trainers who know how to use them. I have ecollars for all of our dogs, but I would never let BF touch them (since he isn't patient enough). I mostly use them to discourage idiot barking like at a squirrel on the lawn or a dog who is barking because one or two of the others started it. But I do use them to provide positive reinforcement at distance and every once in a while to offer a mild correction at distance when I know the dog knows what it should have done. As with any behavior teaching and reinforcement you have to be fair to the dog, which means you have under 3 seconds to hit the button.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well I wanted to edit the post above t say I never recommend ecollars to pet clients although I will let experienced obedience trainers use them in class. My wifi seems utterly like a slug just now and so I had to add this separately.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I also agree to avoid the ecollar. It's an adversive stimulus, a negative approach. It teaches Maisie to avoid the unpleasant stimulus, not to make positive associations for wanted behaviors and _choose_ the positive behavior.

Fast in the short run maybe but not a solid foundation for a lifetime of good choices.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

I agree with Lily cd re. I've used an e collar before and I'm not against them... but I am against using them as a one size fits all approach. I do believe e collars should only be used in situations where they are the kindest option to the dog. So that's situations of safety, or when it's the only real way to proof or break a behavior that's causing a major hazard for the dog. They can be good tools, but the problem is that it takes _a lot of skill _to use them effectively and if they are used incorrectly it can damage the dog. They must be used fairly. Relying too much on the e collar can result in a dog that doesn't care about listening to you if it's not wearing the collar.

There's a certain type of trainer out there that has very little training and only knows how to shock dogs with e collars like they're operating a machine. I worry very much that you are seeing that type of trainer. All the really good e collar inclusive trainers I've listened to say that it's far better to have your dog trained by an incompetent positive-only trainer than an incompetent e collar trainer. The former might not get you as far as you want to go, but the latter can ruin your dog.

I'd ask yourself what relationship you want to have with Maisie. It's much better to have a relationship built on trust than fear. And an e collar doesn't necessarily ruin that, but it often can.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Like everyone else said. Run from this one and find another trainer. 

I find the idea of using an ecollar, for, well, fairly normal puppy behaviours, concerning. It sounds like your puppy needs to learn self control, and I am unsure how an ecollar helps with that. 

Puppies are difficult, pulling out the big guns for normal puppy stuff makes me wonder how the trainer handles actually difficult issues? Plus, poodles are sensitive. Mine would not take well to frequent corrections, and it would definitely damage our relationship. I use a pinch collar, but it is only for self corrections and control for chasing squirrels on walks, not training. 

Try teaching relax on a mat (google it, it's basically a method to teach your dog to settle and learn to be relaxed). 

Then start enforcing boundaries/earning things with good behaviour. Get a treat bag, carry it with you, and have the dog ask to go out by sitting and looking at you, sit quietly for getting a leash on, sit to cross the street, etc. When you feed, put the dish down when the dog sits. At first- even a second of the behaviour is rewarded. Gradually increase criteria to a few seconds, then a few seconds with focused attention on you. Practice a down stay while you work in the kitchen. Ask for sits and downs in exchange for playing with toys, and work on playing happily, then calm focus, then playing happily again, to teach your dog how to calm down quickly after excitement. 

For jumping- I found teaching my dog to jump on me on command, then off, to work really well, as she learned what the word "off" means. So I lured her to "hug!" Treat, then "off!" Treat, then hug, etc. Great fun. Then I stopped treating "hug", just off. Now, I use hug as a reward during training, and my dog has an understanding of the command "off", and prefers to be off, as that's the position that is rewarded- without me ever having to hurt her to achieve that. 

I suspect you will see dramatic improvement in just a week. Not perfection, but improvement.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

gladsome said:


> Maisie jumped all over him and was in general showing poor manners. But, of course he managed it all very well, and she settled down in the end. It was good to see how he did it.


Would you mind describing what he did? That may give more insight to his training philosophy.

This must feel like a well meaning onslaught but it's because we feel strongly about this method. 



gladsome said:


> will she respond with prompt obedience.


Prompt obedience is the secondary goal with a puppy. Helping Maisie to learn what are good choices because they get positive responses is first.



gladsome said:


> and then when her brain is better adult wired, she will hopefully make good decisions on her own, even, I hope, when I am not around.


She is capable of learning that now. If you don't help her learn positively now, why would it be better or easier when she didn't get the tools early on?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

If you can, I would also recommend purchasing Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. That book was very influential in teaching me to understand the motivations behind dog behaviour, and how to work with my dog to live more harmoniously together.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't know who this trainer is or what his credentials are but happened on this while googling e collar training. It explains what we're saying about ecollar training from another trainers perspective, in addition to our own trainers who've been posting in this thread.









The Myth of Low-Level Stim E-collar Training - Nitro K-9 LLC


Share this postLately, I’ve been noticing that the training industry has gotten e-collar happy. I’ve been seeing a big influx of dogs that were started...




www.nitrocanine.com


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Come on, everyone, tell me how you _REALLY_ feel! Hahaha! 

In replaying today’s conversation with the trainer, I realize he talked about his own dogs and his daughter’s dog, and they were all rescue dogs... 

If nothing else, this has been a most interesting week! What a rush!

So much different input, but I think I will go with you guys. Because of the love you have for poodles...not only your own pet poodles, but all poodles. That love comes through loud and clear, and I trust it. So, I will buckle down and learn what I can from the links you have shared and YouTube videos. And, truth be told, if you met Maisie, I think you would take a long look at me and wonder what all the fuss is about. I think she is a good pup, and I will do my part as best as I am able to help her be a great dog. 

FwoP...that is a wild and crazy way to teach a pup from jumping! I will keep it in mind, and so long as it doesn’t work her up into a frenzy, am willing to give it a go. And, I will look up that book. Thanks!

Thanks to all you great folk, and great poodle lovers!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'd describe a poodles way of thinking as considering things and concluding things, with more than a bit of what's in it for me? 
Positive training and reinforcement work with those tendencies rather than trying to make the pup think in a way that's not in their dna. You end up with a partner .


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

gladsome said:


> Come on, everyone, tell me how you _REALLY_ feel! Hahaha!
> 
> In replaying today’s conversation with the trainer, I realize he talked about his own dogs and his daughter’s dog, and they were all rescue dogs...
> 
> ...


Lol yeah it sounds crazy, I admit. Basically- by the time a dog is jumping, they are WAY too wired to learn anything. We humans tend to yell things at our dogs, and expect them to know what the words mean. How is a dog to know that "off" means " 4 ft on the floor now!" So the trick is to teach them what the words we use mean in a calm situation. Same as the call "come!" Or "sit". We learn in a calm situation, then work in more distraction later on, so I can tell her exactly what I want and have her understand.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

gladsome said:


> FwoP...that is a wild and crazy way to teach a pup from jumping


That same method can work with many undesirable behaviors. Are they barking at something out the window? Teach them to bark on command, then teach the quiet to bracket it.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Great article Rose n Poos.

The absolute worst dog fight I've ever had to break up was started by a shock collar. The dog being shocked thought the other dog caused it and attacked. The innocent dog ended up needing close to 100 stitches.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

gladsome said:


> Come on, everyone, tell me how you _REALLY_ feel! Hahaha!
> 
> In replaying today’s conversation with the trainer, I realize he talked about his own dogs and his daughter’s dog, and they were all rescue dogs...
> 
> ...


I can tell you are very dedicated and I'm so glad to hear things are going to go in a positive direction for the both of you.

I know that feeling of looking at an unruly adolescent and feeling totally lost and wishing that you had a perfectly behaved dog like those you see out and about. In reality those dogs are usually middle aged and past their puppyhood. It can feel like you are so far from there when your puppy is a crazy monster. But half the battle is training and the other half is simply maturity. A dog needs to learn skills but also have the ability to put them to use. Poodles are especially playful, bouncy, and exuberant. Over time you'll probably come to appreciate that energy and vivacity, but it can be a lot when they are young. My suggestion would be to see if your area has any obedience clubs or organizations that aren't profit based, and they will have the best suggestions for trainers. Our local Miami obedience club has volunteers that teach classes in obedience and agility, and the trainer we use is a member of the club. Any dog sport trainer will also have suggestions for good obedience trainers in your area. I'd just try to avoid the profit-driven businesses that mostly train pet dogs, because they aren't always good.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

One of the things that's surprised me most about Peggy is her capacity to learn. She learns constantly, whether we realize we're teaching her or not. So sometimes we have real OOPS! moments—didn't meant to teach _that_. And some of it can also take a while to show up. So you have to be patient and consistent, but you have to make sure you're consistently doing the _right_ thing, or your results aren't going to be what you expected.

One of our current challenges: When Peggy gets over-excited, she has a tendency to want to mouth hands. At home now, all it takes is one errant chomp and I can practically see the lightbulb go on in her brain. She races to grab a toy to occupy her mouth. That's something she learned at just a few months old. It felt like a huge breakthrough!

But when we're out and about in the world, she has no toys to grab. And dogs don't generalize very well between environments anyway. So you can see how my method breaks down. Now I have to figure out what behaviour I'd prefer she offer up when meeting people on walks, and find a way to communicate that expectation.

My lightbulb moment: It's not that I taught her "no mouthing." What I probably actually taught her was: _"When I excitedly mouth at home, I should immediately grab a toy!"_

D'oh.

Training on your own is good to a certain point, but it's hard to be objective and see where we might have gone wrong. And the internet makes it really easy to get confused by contradictory methods, and, in turn, confuse our dogs. Plus, some techniques (like loose-leash walking with positive reinforcement) are just plain tricky. I think most people can benefit tremendously from even one or two in-person sessions.

It's kind of like weight training: If your form is just a little bit off, you can expend a lot of energy for minimal gains. You might even hurt yourself. And you're much more likely to give up. So that's where a personal trainer comes in.

And, in your case, since your husband isn't fully on-board, it will be very helpful to be able to say, "Well, the trainer told us to always XYZ."


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## Green Bean (Apr 23, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> P.S. Your husband is likely not going to see those manners he so desires for another 1-2 years, and that's only if you both put in the work.
> 
> Sure, he'll see glimpses of them. There'll be good days and good weeks. But your puppy is not a robot. She's a teenager who's lacking in education and has been confused by one family member who doesn't like her and another who's doing her best but hasn't settled on a method of training and therefore must seem extremely erratic and unpredictable. That's not fun for any dog, but really does damage to a sensitive poodle.
> 
> ...


I'm just a lurker with no poodle and no advice but just wanted to say this booklet is amazing! I've been up reading it for hours & I am so glad to have found it, thank you so much for sharing!


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Thank you PeggyTheParti. I will keep looking. Because of the Covid restrictions, there are still not any classes in my area. But, soon perhaps. Both Maisie and I could use the socialization, too!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

gladsome said:


> Thank you PeggyTheParti. I will keep looking. Because of the Covid restrictions, there are still not any classes in my area. But, soon perhaps. Both Maisie and I could use the socialization, too!


It really is so nice to have classmates to commiserate with. Hope we can all fill that void for each other in the meantime.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Erin123 said:


> I'm just a lurker with no poodle and no advice but just wanted to say this booklet is amazing! I've been up reading it for hours & I am so glad to have found it, thank you so much for sharing!


Yay!! I've read it with each puppy and I learn something new from it every time. I've got the hardcover book copy, which includes "Before You Get Your Puppy." (Also extremely useful!)



https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE%20You%20Get%20Your%20Puppy.pdf


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## SSpillies (May 27, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Yay!! I've read it with each puppy and I learn something new from it every time. I've got the hardcover book copy, which includes "Before You Get Your Puppy." (Also extremely useful!)
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE%20You%20Get%20Your%20Puppy.pdf


I’m also on page 60 😂 very well written and informative!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SSpillies said:


> I’m also on page 60 😂 very well written and informative!


Double yay!!

Some great resources here, too:






Dr. Dunbar's Dog Behavior & Training Academy







www.dunbaracademy.com


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

gladsome said:


> I hardly believe I have already seen progress! She got feisty when I told her it was time to go in this morning and wanted to lead her back in by the leash. She grabbed the short leash and started tug of war. I leaned against the house and waited her out. At last she sat (after 2-3 tries) and let me lead her in without further complaint. Yay!


Hi, just checking in...
I don't remember if anyone mentioned but the above is a good example of "It's Yer Choice". Previously, when she started a tug of war her behavior was "rewarded" by you engaging in her "game". In this instance, you changed the game by not playing hers. Her previous strategy wasn't working this time, and you weren't responding as you had, so she had to stop and "think" (that considering part) and only then did she get rewarded by choosing a different strategy (sitting quietly). All you had to exercise was patience while she "considered" different ways of responding and then she chose to sit. When she made that choice and you rewarded her for that choice, she "concluded" that sitting was a "good" choice.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> When she made that choice and you rewarded her for that choice, she "concluded" that sitting was a "good" choice.


Poodles are really good at this, too! They're always weighing their options. 

When Peggy is doing something annoying, instead of blaming her for it, I always think: "Okay, _when_ did she get rewarded for this and how?" Sometimes the answer is surprisingly obvious.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

A bit of wisdom I will try to keep in mind. Usually lately it is when I want her to reel in the play time and head inside. The last two days, in the chaos of the moment, she has also stolen an article of mine as well. Yesterday she was running around like a crazy funny guy with a favorite pair of sunglasses. Today, without any beginning chaos, she just went for my garden gloves, and then flipped into her crazy mode. The glasses took on a more urgent response than the gloves, but when it is time to go in, it is time to go in. Today I was in short sleeves, and the mouthing hurt. So, it may be a joke of hers, but not so funny to me. My sister’s dog steals all sorts of things and runs around as she is chased, but she doesn’t jump and mouth so as to challenge and cause injury. This is Day 7, and she has not yet made it through a day without this behavior. That is a day I am looking forward to.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

gladsome said:


> My sister’s dog steals all sorts of things and runs around as she is chased, but she doesn’t jump and mouth so as to challenge and cause injury.


It’s very, very important that you never chase a dog who steals something. To them it’s a game, and that’s exactly what they want. By chasing them, you are reinforcing the behavior. Wait until she settles then get it back. Don’t talk to her, scream or even pay attention. Make it so boring she won’t want to do it, at least not to get your attention.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

gladsome said:


> This is Day 7, and she has not yet made it through a day without this behavior. That is a day I am looking forward to.


You could try reframing it as "We've not yet gotten through a day without triggering this behaviour."

What are you doing to prevent the jumping?
The stealing?
The mouthing?
What is she getting out of it?
How can you satisfy that need in other ways? And how are you rewarding her for ending play time? How are you rewarding her for coming inside? Or does walking through the door = punishment in the form of No More Fun.

You don't need to elaborate here if you don't want to, but you should have a game plan for each.

Is she getting adequate exercise? Adequate enforced rest and self-soothing time?

Have you ever chased her to get an item back?

If so, you've made it a game, and a very fun game! You might also be watering the seeds of resource guarding (as we inadvertently did). No chasing. Ever. And always best to keep your pockets stuffed with yummy things.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

A trick I have with my puppy is to turn the tables when he steals something. I steal one of his favorite items (lately it's his Lambchop toy) in return. Sometimes I pretend I'm being sneaky. I grab the toy while he's watching, hide it against my body, and then move away as though I'm trying to hide what I'm doing. Other times I squeak the toy and then joyfully scamper to another part of the yard, where I turn my back and play with the toy. Either way, as long as the object he stole isn't something high value (like pizza crust) my interest in the toy instead of the puppy usually triggers a FOMO reaction. He comes over to try to get me to play with him instead of the toy.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

cowpony said:


> A trick I have with my puppy is to turn the tables when he steals something. I steal one of his favorite items (lately it's his Lambchop toy) in return. Sometimes I pretend I'm being sneaky. I grab the toy while he's watching, hide it against my body, and then move away as though I'm trying to hide what I'm doing. Other times I squeak the toy and then joyfully scamper to another part of the yard, where I turn my back and play with the toy. Either way, as long as the object he stole isn't something high value (like pizza crust) my interest in the toy instead of the puppy usually triggers a FOMO reaction. He comes over to try to get me to play with him instead of the toy.


Such good advice.

What do you do when you're trying to scare a raccoon away? You use a low, stern voice and stomp towards it.

Now what do most people do when they want their dog to come to them? They use a low, stern voice and stomp towards it! 

D'oh.

Honestly, I'm so guilty of doing this on occasion, even when I totally know better.

Dogs in general are wired to chase, and spoos often have a high prey drive, which means they're REALLY wired to chase. So turning the tables on them is a genius idea. 

But it does go against our human instincts, especially when they've got something precious to us. So take a deep breath and be sure to have a game plan. Don't try to figure it out in the moment.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

All good advice, thank you. I’ve been lying awake, once again, trying to work this thing out in my mind. I was wondering if I should just stand there, if I can, and get my arms bruised and my clothing torn until she eventually loses interest. I can see that she may get bored, but doesn’t that tacitly show that that behavior is at least tolerated? The sound of my ripping glove, my ripping sweatshirt does reinforce her enjoyment of the lunging. One day, that is all it seemed to be about. She seemed to just start by going for my sweatshirt that was dangling in the front.

But, I can’t predict when it will happen, but only guess it is when she feels stress (after the trainer left), when she is tired (late morning if she hasn’t had a nap), when she feels cheated (playtime is ending), but sometimes it feels like a game of being a pull toy in a sweatshirt or a dangling glove. And it doesn’t matter what Is happening. Today I had thrown the ball for a while, had filled up the wading pool for her, and was on my way to fill the birdbath where she drinks. The attacks (that’s what they feel like) take me by surprise most times, like today, and often start from behind. And, today, because I feared my arms would get torn, and as always, that my husband would hear us and come around the house to witness it and get angry, I tried kneeing her when she jumped at me, several times. No effect. Maybe it started her growling, maybe she was already growling. Because I am caught unawares, and even thinking she likes what we are doing, I can hardly fathom that it is happening again, and get stuck in a moment where I fall into protection mode. It wasn’t about an old garden glove, or even the glasses, I don’t believe. Things just seem to go flying in the circling moment. It is hard for me to say when the exact moment of impact is, because I am blindsided.

I can understand the importance of having a game plan, because thinking up what to do in the moment is next to impossible. I think she must nap late morning. She also naps mid afternoon. And, she goes to bed by 7 pm. She gets two walks each day, after breakfast and after her pm nap. I am working on her walking with a loose leash on the walks. I train her a couple of times in the house on her commands. We track once a day in the house for treats. We don’t have other games inside. When I sit, she usually is right there, so I comb her, other times I just pet her. She gets plenty of love. Inside she is not a problem. She doesn’t go out on her own. She doesn’t like being out on her own. She just sits in the garage until I come out. I often put her on leash to pee when we first go out, so I know she has. Then off leash to play ball and walk around the yard, go to the garden. I don’t know any other games we play outside. We had to give up squishy face, and then soccer ball, because I thought they were too aggressive for now. So I just kick a retriever ball. She wasn’t too interested in frisbee.

I guess I will have to dress for the occasion, not the weather. Heavy clothing. I will try the passive, loss of interest response. This is a hard, hard thing, and I am disheartened. Oh, I was thinking of keeping her on leash all the time for awhile to break the syndrome. I started walking her around the yard in the early evening on leash instead of going for a last run to pee and poo before bed. Because that was a key time when it would happen. I need a day without this happening, and maybe she does, too. If she stays on leash, it won’t happen. She may bite and pull at the leash, and try to mouth my hand, but I don’t think she will lunge. We actually like our walks around the house in the evening. They are quiet, I am not training her, and we just get to look around and no one is leading. It might be hard to give up free play, especially ball, for however long, but maybe we need to. 

I think maybe I am repeating myself, but I can’t tell! It must be time to sleep!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm on my way to sleep now myself but I want you to know that this is fixable once you have the tools.
If someone doesn't drop by thru the rest of the night they will in the morning.
You have just given a lot of really helpful information.

I know it's overwhelming taken as a whole so we'll break it down for you.

I hope you get some rest and we'll have some suggestions and more questions tomorrow.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so sorry this has been such a painful (at times very painful) struggle for you.

Can you clarify a few things? (Or just reflect on them personally. No need to share any more than you feel comfortable sharing.)

When you say you were worried your husband would see and get angry, how does he express his anger? Does he shout at or physically engage Maisie in any way? Do the two of you argue? Are your interactions around her tense? Poodles are extremely sensitive to heightened energy, stress, and shifting moods, and they do best in mellow households. This is something that was gently explained to me when I first joined Poodle Forum, and although I thought I already knew that about poodles and was behaving accordingly, I took an honest look at my husband's and my habits and realized there were some things we could improve upon, which wouldn't just benefit Peggy, but us, too.

On a semi-related note, does anyone roughhouse with Maisie? Or did they when she was smaller?

And lastly, was your kneeing response something new you're trying? Was this something you read about or just instinct? And when you say your husband always hears you when these interactions happen, what do you mean? What specifically would he overhear?

I think your idea to avoid the backyard for a while, unless Maisie's leashed, sounds good. I'd probably avoid the backyard altogether. You're right that it's not good for her to keep rehearsing this behaviour, and it's amazing what a disruption of bad patterns can accomplish. A break will also give you a little distance from these episodes, which might help you to reflect on them more objectively.

Have you made any progress finding someone locally who can assist?

We're a concerned and helpful bunch, but most of us aren't trainers, and we only know what you tell us. We could be overlooking some key pieces of the puzzle. Plus, I suspect I'm repeating myself here, but I think you could really benefit from a cohesive plan. It will give you so much more confidence than all our bits and pieces of well-meaning (and sometimes contradictory) advice.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

While you continue your search for a local trainer, you might find these resources helpful:

Spirit Dog's Main Page


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Website (which includes online courses and coaching)








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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Gladsome - I want you to know, if you decide to rehome her - I will have no judgement. Sometimes dogs just don't fit us in a certain time of life. We like to think we'd never rehome a dog, but sometimes (and you are the only one who can answer this question - it's better for the human quality of life or the dog's quality of life).

But I also want you to know that 8-12 months were undoubtedly the hardest times with my own spoo. People on this forum and old threads on this forum were amazingly helpful in dealing with her - i have MANY Annie-specific threads in the "General obedience" section of the forum. At 1.5 she is not out of the woods yet, but so much easier to live with than at 8 months.

Is there any decent positive trainer you could try locally?

How is her sit, down, and stay ? You are going to need them for what I describe next.

Annie at 8 months had some of the same behaviours, but I worked on them quickly, so she had less repetitions.

For the nipping and jumping. I personally didn't find that I could stand like a tree and ignore her. It hurt! So instead, if we were indoors - I would walk into the bathroom while ignoring her, and shut the door. 30s or a minute later, when I was feeling calmer and she had time to calm down. I would return.

Outside - I too had issues with her jumping and getting at me when we played soccer ball, which she ADORES. She nipped me and broke skin once, and I was very upset.

So what I figured out do do, was teach her to sit to get the ball thrown. SO I would pick the ball up, ask for a sit (she would sit) and the moment her butt hit the ground, throw it. Then I'd go pick up the ball again. If she jumped/nipped, I would tell her what I wanted "Sit!". IF she did it twice in a row, we would go inside. Over time, I started asking for sits that were longer and longer, and worked in that the moment I touched the ball, she needed to sit, and then I started walking around with the ball while she sat or down stayed. i also threw in some of her other commands for fun. This did a few things - give her something to do other than nip and jump, and also taught her self control and how to go from arousal to calm, and taught her good things come from me and she needs to work for them. I would personally recommend at the beginning to only do maybe 5 repetitions before stopping, so she doesn't get a chance to get too wound up and mentally tired to sit, and then practices the behaviour.again. 

The other thing I was having issues with at that time was I just never felt like she settled down and relaxed. So I started to do relax on a Mat, and also teaching a "Settle" command when that was going better- I wanted to teach her to lie down quietly at my feet while I talked to neighbours or on the GO train or bus.

So what I did was have her lie down on leash. Drop food (I treat with another brand of kibble usually) every time you see even a twitch of relaxation (like head boeing, kicking legs out to the side, etc, etc), and (at the beginning stages) if she hasn't been rewarded in 10-20 s but is still doing the previous behaviour. Over time, this teaches her, again, to go from aroused (OMG, a treat fell from the sky!!!) to calm (I need to show the signs of calm now, that is what I am being rewarded for). Now, when I tell her to "settle" while I chat with a neighbour, she lies down, knowing not to expect anything interesting and I want her to relax now, and her reward will be - maybe - a pet from the neighbour, or going for a walk and doing something INTERESTING after I manage to escape from the neighbour.

Finally - I also taught her to lie at a down stay while I was in the kitchen making lunch or doing dishes. So I'd have her in a down stay, and every 10-15 s, throw a treat over. THen every 20 s, every 30s, ever minute, every few minutes. Now she knows when I am the kitchen - she is to lie down out of the way, and maybe good things will come from the sky. Doing this is also very mentally tiring for a dog, especially in the beginning, as self control takes a lot of energy. A trainer I spoke to at the time who recommended this and the previous method said what you want to do is teach the dog to use up energy doing CALM things, instead of always crazy excited things.

Hope something helps you.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

No, don't just stand there and let her maul you. If she is behaving that way, turn around and leave. Don't speak to her, just walk away into another room and shut the door, or go into the house if you are outside. Leave her alone for maybe 30 seconds and go back in. If she starts mauling you again, turn around and leave. Keep doing this until she can be quiet when you come back in. Leave immediately when she starts this behavior, and every time she starts it. Again, no interaction at all. Don't yell at her, don't look at her, don't speak to her, just leave. This behavior earns her nothing except isolation and being ignored. She craves attention, so don't give her any.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Hi again. Maisie is napping. PtheP...my husband and I don’t argue much. A few times over the last 6 months, though, we did have some heated discussions about the dog, so I guess that counts. But, as a general rule, it is a peaceful home here. I was afraid if he heard and saw Maisie going at me, he would yell at her and get in the middle of it. Then, Maisie would maybe escalate and go after him, and then he might hit her. At least, he would wave his arms as though he was going to. That would be really ugly. But, anyway, that hasn’t happened, and in fact he thinks she has improved this past week. That is a lot from someone who wanted nothing to do with her and was ignoring her. Now he talks to her again, and she sits with him like she used to. 
I used to play soccer ball with her where we would fight over the ball as soccer ball players do to get the ball away for a kick. It was great fun, but maybe it was too rough. We don’t do it anymore. When she was very young, I would walk the yard in one direction, and she would run the yard, zipping past me, then I would change directions and she would race past me again, then I would change directions again, and so on. Is that chasing? I learned to knee a dog long ago from a breeder. I guess that is an old correction that lives on... I will not do it anymore. It doesn’t work anyway.

As you can imagine, many ideas are floating in my head. The one that I have latched onto is the oddball one about teaching opposites. That is, hug and down; mouth and close; pull and walk (loose leash); take and drop. I am fascinated with it, and have begun to try it on for size. Maisie sort of gets it. Today, since she is not off leash, the challenge has been wiping her feet when she comes in without her mouthing. So, here I am trying to get her to stand for the back legs while explaining open/close mouth; then sit for the front legs and mouth/close. She really likes mouth, but only gets a reward for close, and at the same time is sitting or standing appropriately, but that is not the focus. It is almost fun watching her think it through and decide if she can or will close her mouth. At least she is not loose and out of control. I have walked her extra today to make up for the off the leash playtime, but shorter walks so she can work on the loose leash part without losing patience. This morning was the best she has ever done at it.
Reraven, thank you for not wanting me to get mauled. Much appreciated. While doing the paw wipe, indoors and on leash, I did decide today to just tough it out, and let my sweatshirt be ripped if necessary. She eventually wound down. And, I have done the leave the room trick. Works great if there is a door around.
Well, there is still half a day left, Day 8, but I think I am pretty safe from mauling with little Maisie on leash! I will keep reading the links, just haven’t had time yet. I did order the book, Culture Clash, and downloaded those booklets. Thank you all for so much hope you have packaged and sent to me via this forum! A wonderful gift, and I will try to make it last and last.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Dechi said:


> It’s very, very important that you *never chase a dog* who steals something. To them it’s a game, and that’s exactly what they want. By chasing them, you are reinforcing the behavior. Wait until she settles then get it back. Don’t talk to her, scream or even pay attention. Make it so boring she won’t want to do it, at least not to get your attention.



Just never chase a dog unless you want your dog to think it is funny to make you chase them!


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

gladsome said:


> Hi again. Maisie is napping. PtheP...my husband and I don’t argue much. A few times over the last 6 months, though, we did have some heated discussions about the dog, so I guess that counts. But, as a general rule, it is a peaceful home here. I was afraid if he heard and saw Maisie going at me, he would yell at her and get in the middle of it. Then, Maisie would maybe escalate and go after him, and then he might hit her. At least, he would wave his arms as though he was going to. That would be really ugly. But, anyway, that hasn’t happened, and in fact he thinks she has improved this past week. That is a lot from someone who wanted nothing to do with her and was ignoring her. Now he talks to her again, and she sits with him like she used to.
> I used to play soccer ball with her where we would fight over the ball as soccer ball players do to get the ball away for a kick. It was great fun, but maybe it was too rough. We don’t do it anymore. When she was very young, I would walk the yard in one direction, and she would run the yard, zipping past me, then I would change directions and she would race past me again, then I would change directions again, and so on. Is that chasing? I learned to knee a dog long ago from a breeder. I guess that is an old correction that lives on... I will not do it anymore. It doesn’t work anyway.
> 
> As you can imagine, many ideas are floating in my head. The one that I have latched onto is the oddball one about teaching opposites. That is, hug and down; mouth and close; pull and walk (loose leash); take and drop. I am fascinated with it, and have begun to try it on for size. Maisie sort of gets it. Today, since she is not off leash, the challenge has been wiping her feet when she comes in without her mouthing. So, here I am trying to get her to stand for the back legs while explaining open/close mouth; then sit for the front legs and mouth/close. She really likes mouth, but only gets a reward for close, and at the same time is sitting or standing appropriately, but that is not the focus. It is almost fun watching her think it through and decide if she can or will close her mouth. At least she is not loose and out of control. I have walked her extra today to make up for the off the leash playtime, but shorter walks so she can work on the loose leash part without losing patience. This morning was the best she has ever done at it.
> ...


Hang in there. She sounds like an especially determined mouther. Misha was like that when younger and I remember thinking I couldn't handle it if he was the size of a spoo. I do remember that the mouthing got really bad after his adult teeth came in, and it kind of reached a climax before it started to suddenly taper off. That was when I started to resort to putting peppermint extract on my hands to keep him away from them. It was just too much. I have always used a flirt pole and never had any issue with it. I think games that focus that energy and mouthing on a toy are fine, though I agree it's not good if she's attacking you.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

gladsome said:


> Usually lately it is* when I want her to reel in the play time and head inside*. The last two days, in the chaos of the moment, she has also stolen an article of mine as well. Yesterday she was* running around like a crazy funny guy with a favorite pair of sunglasses. Today, without any beginning chaos, she just went for my garden gloves, and then flipped into her crazy mode. *The glasses took on a more urgent response than the gloves, but when it is time to go in, it is time to go in. Today I was in short sleeves, and the mouthing hurt. So,* it may be a joke of hers, but not so funny to me.*





gladsome said:


> I was wondering if I should just stand there, if I can, and get my arms bruised and my clothing torn* until she eventually loses interest. I can see that she may get bored*, but doesn’t that tacitly show that that behavior is at least tolerated? The sound of my ripping glove, my ripping sweatshirt does reinforce her enjoyment of the lunging. One day, that is all it seemed to be about. She seemed to just start by going for my sweatshirt that was dangling in the front.





gladsome said:


> *I think she must nap late morning. She also naps mid afternoon. And, she goes to bed by 7 pm. She gets two walks each day, after breakfast and after her pm nap. I am working on her walking with a loose leash on the walks. I train her a couple of times in the house on her commands. We track once a day in the house for treats. We don’t have other games inside*. *When I sit, she usually is right there, *so I comb her, other times I just pet her. She gets plenty of love. *Inside she is not a problem. She doesn’t go out on her own. She doesn’t like being out on her own*. She just sits in the garage until I come out. I often put her on leash to pee when we first go out, so I know she has. Then off leash to play ball and walk around the yard, go to the garden.* I don’t know any other games we play outside*. We had to give up squishy face, and then soccer ball, because I thought they were too aggressive for now. So I just kick a retriever ball. She wasn’t too interested in frisbee.


I'm going to mention a moment in history first. 
It's public here on the forum so I hope PTP doesn't mind. She has been in your shoes, considering rehoming her Peggy Sue. This may have been mentioned before, so apologies if I'm repeating.

PF met PTP when she had contacted a member asking for a temperament assessment of her puppy, Peggy Sue, who had been showing signs of what was described as aggressive tendencies. She was told this by people who she had every reason to believe, but their assessment was a bit misdirected.

PTP had been told that Peggy Sue had growled at a child, Peggy Sue being only a baby herself, and she growled at the vet when handled. PF's intrepid reporter spent a few hours with PTP and Peggy Sue and felt that it wasn't aggression at all, but was simply a puppy trying to tell those people that she was not comfortable with how they behaved toward her. Her growling was her only only way of communicating her fear.

It wasn't immediately all a bed of roses but once PTP was able to reset her perception and see from Peggy Sue's world, things started changing.

Now for a symbolic moment. 
We talk about "starting over" again when a pup or older dog has house training issues, going back to square one as if they had no training at all.
Consider creating a symbolic moment by reintroducing Maisie to the house, as if it was her first day. Show her around, explain things, try to think of her a new pup and blank slate. Try to reframe your perceptions of her actions and think in puppy terms. I bolded a couple of things in the quotes, the funny crazy guy, the crazy mode...that sounds like Puppy to me. (And let me just say here that I have 2 mpoo brothers that I raised at the same time. Rehoming crossed my mind more than occasionally in the early months.) 

It's not a joke when she mouths you to the point of pain and tears your clothes, not to either of you. The mouthing is a puppy way of communicating, in this case carried to an inappropriate level. That's trainable. My arms were a constant landing place for teeth. I kept treats and toys in my pockets and at hand to trade out for my skin and clothes. The tearing of the clothes isn't deliberate destruction, it happens when she's attracted to the movement and her mouthing catches the clothing. I like to wear capris that have ties at the calves. Guess what got mouthed and accidentally got bit at my house? If you guessed my capris and my legs, you got it! Mini's are shorter so they couldn't reach any higher. I did give up wearing loose woven toppers due to teeth and nails just catching the bottoms of them. I can wear them all safely now .

The idea of waiting for her to make different choices (and she does need to have had some training to choose from, which you have been doing) is not that she gets bored and loses interest. Those are human frames of reference. She is more cause and effect, action and reward. If she is grabbing at her leash to communicate something, that's different than grabbing you. When she mouths you, whether inside or outside, the consequence is that you remove yourself temporarily. You mentioned that she doesn't like being outside without you. Not all dogs like being outside without their people. Maisie sounds like a very people oriented dog.

The last section I quoted causes me to ask for a blow by blow description of your day and evening together. Without knowing why, I must say that 7pm sounds early for bedtime.

For example, here's my schedule with the boys as puppies
9-930a
They get up and go out. We'd be out for a few extra minutes then back in for breakfast, outside again then back to their condo's to sleep some more.
11-11:30a
We all get up. They go back out. We stay out a while and play. We come back in and play and train a bit. They crash and nap a bit.
1pm
Up and out again, lunch, back out for a while and we play and train. Back inside and we have some hang out time.
3pm
Harness up and take a walk around the neighborhood. Back in for a nap again. Back out after waking then hanging out while I do stuff. A bit more play/train time is in here too.
7pm
Dinner then outside then back in and hang out. They're wrestling and playing with each other now and thru the day as well as part of their play time. They eventually crash.
10p or later
Out one more time then up to bed

Now, this is nearly three years ago so my memory may be a bit off. I blame Puppy Brain for that  but the point is that things were done regularly and always under direct supervision of one of us. If they weren't under direct supervision, they were crated or in their expen. We used baby gates to limit them to the two main rooms of the main floor while we moved around in them. They didn't have free rein of the main floor til after they were 7-8 months old. By that time, they'd shown they weren't going to be destructive of property and were going to be reliable in the house. I didn't tether because, well, two puppies. That's why we settled on the baby gates and very restricted access. 

How does Maisie's day compare? 

Now for the greeting card moment.
We've all been thru this in varying degrees and sizes. We're really all on the same chapter, tho possibly different pages at times. Maisie is a puppy with limited communication skills clearly understandable to most humans but that doesn't mean she isn't trying her best to communicate. You're both having to learn each others language. It's not easy but it's possible as most of us will attest. 

Deep breath
Reset
Think like a puppy
Reward only the good behaviors
Remember to have fun with her and laugh


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Well! Of course Rose n Poos just had to go and get me a little weepy! Lol. She has a brilliant brain for PF history, and such a great knack for pulling up the perfect memory. 

Our symbolic reset was renaming our confusing little puppy. 

We actually were starting the 5-hour-drive back to the breeder, to return our brand new puppy that we were then calling Mabel, when we got held up by a bridge opening. (We live in a remote part of Washington, separated from the mainland by a long bridge that periodically opens for boats.)

I texted the breeder to explain the delay, and told her I hoped it wasn't a sign that we were making the wrong decision. She replied that I could have another two weeks with the puppy, if I felt it might help. And I promptly burst into tears. My husband was only too happy to turn the car around.

Needless to say, at the end of those two weeks we decided to keep "Mabel." And suddenly I knew she wasn't Mabel at all, but Peggy Sue. My husband agreed. 

A second symbolic reset was after her first visit to our groomer, just a few weeks later. With her freshly shaved face, suddenly I could really see her eyes, and in her eyes, her whole heart was shining through. 

I still get a little giddy after a grooming appointment.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

gladsome said:


> in fact he thinks she has improved this past week. That is a lot from someone who wanted nothing to do with her and was ignoring her. Now he talks to her again, and she sits with him like she used to.
> ...
> As you can imagine, many ideas are floating in my head. The one that I have latched onto is the oddball one about teaching opposites. That is, hug and down; mouth and close; pull and walk (loose leash); take and drop. I am fascinated with it, and have begun to try it on for size. Maisie sort of gets it.
> ...
> ...


Wow! Just wanted to interrupt this thread to say this sounds like huge progress. I am SO glad to hear its getting a bit better- every milestone and bit of progress is with a crazy teenage puppy is a really good thing. 

Good job!!! Well done! 🎉🎉

🏅🏅🏅


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

gladsome said:


> When she was very young, I would walk the yard in one direction, and she would run the yard, zipping past me, then I would change directions and she would race past me again, then I would change directions again, and so on. Is that chasing?


That's not chasing. That's attraction to you and it's a very good thing. You're working on recall when you do that. See this thread by lily cd re:








Help in training


How can I get her to attention focus she’s so distracted and mouths a lot she’s 8 weeks old I can’t get anything done except word potty time I got her on 4/16/19. I wanna do some small training but her mouthing and distracted I can’t get her to even sit




www.poodleforum.com





For the crazy mode, see these by Click-N-Treat:








I'm back and have a training question


Well, after chemo therapy, radiation and two heart ablations I'm finally feeling up to asking a question about my little guy Rudy. I've spent so much on training and I don't feel I've gotten anywhere. It's my fault, not his. I've tried three different trainings plus Susan Garett and maybe it's...




www.poodleforum.com




and maybe not quite yet, but no reason this one can't be adapted to just you and Maisie








Working with kids (second draft after technical...


Hi Poodle Friends, The boy in my house is the most puppy-like No Fur of the bunch. I like to jump on him and bite his pants and then he wiggles and makes funny sounds and starts playing chase. I am VERY good at chase. Sometimes the boy has other small No Furs with him and they do the same...




www.poodleforum.com





There's a reason poodles are used for performing. They're exuberant, they bounce and jump, they're smart.

We'll keep at it as long as you need and hope to take the dis out of discourage and out of disheartened. (found the rest of the greeting card moment lol)


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I'm catching up on PF after being gone for a while, so I just read this whole thread for the first time. 
I get the impression that Maisie might struggle with regulating her own arousal levels. I was reminded of this post I read recently, which might be helpful for you. In fact this whole group is really good, run by some lovely R+ trainers and has tons of resources.








Pandemic Puppy Raising Support Group | Facebook


Join a group of breeders, professional and hobby trainers, behavior counselors, and puppy owners as we navigate socializing our puppies during a pandemic. This group will house tips and ideas for...




www.facebook.com


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

This is overwhelming now, but your dog will eventually grow up. One of my friends used to go to the dog pound looking for 11 month old puppies. That was about the age where their previous owners finally had enough of destructo-dog and sent them off. Her opinion was that she was getting a great deal on these dogs: they came pre-housebroken, and were just a few months from outgrowing much of their worst behavior. You are still in the thick of all the infuriating behavior that has made many puppy owners give up. Inside all that young dog energy and bratiness is a good dog who will drop in for more frequent visits.

You may not realize it, but you have made a huge step in identifying some times and situations which trigger bad behavior. You've also identified things she enjoys and doesn't enjoy.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am just finding this thread/topic, and just read the entire thing. I must say I actually stopped breathing when I read that your 'trainer' wanted you to start out with an e-collar, without even doing a lot of positive work first. I almost couldn't continue reading. I remember early on being so frustrated, and went to a trainer that had been highly recommended to me by a lady on the street''. His first two classes were on teaching your dog 'no', and if they didn't listen giving them a poke. Then on to using prong collars. My dog got worse, not better. Much worse.

So, feeling helpless I called a trainer that actually kept your dog with him for a month while he trained him with an e-collar. I am so very grateful to that man. I explained that I wanted to train my dog to be a Service Dog, and he very gently told me that he would recommend then that I not send him my dog, but to look for a trainer that used clicker training, or a trainer who used behavioral methods and reinforcements. That his training was for aggressive/ and or very untrainable dogs. I am getting a stomach ache just remembering this. And telling myself to breathe. I had actually forgotten all about this!

Finally I looked up and read about every dog trainer in the area; called about 10 vets and asked for recommendations; called the animal shelter and asked who they used if they had a dog that needed behavioural help; watched peoples dogs wherever I went and if I saw one that was gracious, loving and super well behaved asked who their trainer was. The only one that came up about half the time did not do beginner classes and was outrageous in price, so I tried a couple of the others, only seeing minuscule improvement. 

Finally I called the 'too expensive' one. She is a Psychology Professor at the University, and a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. I agreed to do one private lesson with her. I had already paid more than for that 45 minutes with all of the other classes. We got more out that 45 minutes than all of the other classes and I realized I had wasted 4 months. We practiced what she taught us, and then a couple of weeks later had another private class, and practiced again. After the third private class, and more practice we joined her intermediate group class. My spoo kept being chosen to demonstrate what she wanted them to do! 

By 8 months he had gained his AKC CGC, and by 11 months his AKC ACGC and his AKC UCGC, as well as passing a PAT (Public Access Test) toward becoming a Service Dog. And he never took a single class for them. He and I read what he needed to do to pass the tests, and learned it on our own by using the techniques that our excellent trainer had taught us. 

I only wish I had started out with her as our trainer. But I must say, I learned a lot of what not to do from the other trainers. I so hope you find a really excellent trainer soon.

I was concerned also when you mentioned your dog being in the garage. What is that about? 
And going to bed at 7? 

What has worked the best for me is to have my dog with me 24/7. Now he just does it on his own. Occasionally he goes into his crate with cushy blankets next to a heater about 7 feet from me, but I never have to put him to bed or wonder where he is. 

When my spoo was a puppy after finding our trainer I actually hooked his leash to me as a tether so that he was just there for me to reward him as he was calm, talk to him, and I learned every body movement of his and what it meant, etc.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

I think this is Day 9 of retraining. Thank you all for your helpful and interesting recent posts.

PTP...I have thought of renaming her, so I could relate how you really did it. I actually gave her a middle name of Rose, so I decided that her full name would be OK and not too confusing for her, so I here and now christen her MaisieRose! 🤗

Raindrops...this week she was increasingly mouthy. Finally, I am thinking now that in part it is because I was treating for her to “close”. Which she couldn’t do unless she had already opened! Now I just say “no” to the open mouth, on my hands and on my clothing and wait for her to stop, and I think she is getting it. But, when she on her own resists mouthing, as when I am trying to tie my sneakers, I tell her, “good leave it, or good close” and give her a treat then.

RnP...Here is a rough schedule:
6:45-7:15 out of the kennel, out the door to pee and poo (off leash), and back in to eat, which she doesn’t do anymore at this time...but I do.
8:00-8:15 walk with leash training followed by a less formal stroll on leash around the yard afterwards to the garden and greenhouse to check on things. Yesterday it included watering the garden-on leash!- which was somewhat convoluted, but we did it.
9:30 or so. snack. This usually gets her to start on her breakfast bowl of food. Rest.
10:30 or so. Command training in the house. Then scent hide and find game.
11:00 or so. Nap in kennel. The only place she might catch a few winks. If she rests in a room and I move, she moves.
Noon. Lunch. A walk after lunch training loose leash, some commands.
1-2pm. She goes in for a 2 hour nap in the kennel in the bedroom.
4 pm. Up again. Snack. Walk. Command training at some point inside.
Also, her dinner starts somewhere between 4:30-5:00 at which time she begins to finish her lunch and dinner usually before 6 pm. Sometimes she settles and I read, more likely I sit down, she comes over and I comb her or rub her tummy.
6-7. A couple of leashed walks outside. Some settling if the tv is on.
7 pm, she begins nodding off, so I put her to bed.
9 pm. I wake her for a last pee outside, then we both head in to bed.
Basically it is a 12 hour day for her, with a two hour nap, and hopefully a shorter am nap. Three days a week, I am out in the morning, so she goes in her kennel for a couple of hours when I am gone, and I hope she sleeps...

For Want & Cowpony. Thank you for the encouragement!

Starvt. Yes, a high level of arousal at times messes with her hearing except for maybe a dull roar in her head, and it is hard to break through to get her attention. I followed your link to the FB page, but it was not the article itself that you had mentioned. Is there a way you could cut and paste it to this page? I am sure it would be of help to me and perhaps many besides me.

kontiki. She is in the garage waiting at the breezeway door where we go in and out. The garage is open to the outdoors! She just waits for me and doesn’t venture far without me. Won’t even go pee by herself! That was a conundrum in the beginning months when I would think she had been out to go, but she would come in with a full bladder and then pee inside. Yeah. Those days are in the past, thankfully.

One more thing, I forgot to mention. At the suggestion of the lady at the shelter/ grooming place, I started her on Composure Pro. I played with it a week or so, and now I give 1 1/2 tabs to her after her afternoon nap. That has always been her roughest time. She wakes with vim and vigor, and it helps to settle her at the time of day when we need her to quiet down, settle and not be restless and looking for excitement...such as a wrestling partner. It is an herbal supplement with its two first ingredients being thiamine and tryptophan. Yesterday I only gave her a half because it was already 5 pm before I thought of it. On our last evening stroll she went nuts for the leash, pulling and wanting to play tug of war with a vengeance. She missed the leash one time and nailed my hand. It hurt, and her face just changed with recognition that she had missed and felt flesh instead of leash. Then she went right back to the leash fight and jumped up to catch my arm...that I wasn’t sure was a mistake. I tried having her sit and wait it out, but she just kept coming back to it, and the black flies were out for their evening meal, so I ended up half dragging her to the house, all the while shouting “walk”! But, thanks to someone’s earlier recommendation, I did not lead her to the kennel, but instead suggested she eat the rest of her meal when she came in. She was fine after that.

Right now, the only way I can get this written, is that she is zonked out in an upstairs kennel I have so I can work at my art. Yeah, right...that doesn’t happen much. But, now I see she really is tired from the morning and needs a deeper sleep. And, I need my art. So, I see this as a win-win and something we need to continue.

Oh, and Kontiki. Initially I really wanted her to train as a service dog. Then after all this, I tossed out the idea thinking that poodles are too high strung and wired to be service dogs. And, like you, I wanted to look for a dog behaviorist trainer, but thought the expense would be unrealistic. And, she always got carsick and we couldn’t travel far to find one...and we live in the sticks. Now, though, without eating in the am, she is travel worthy, and I will search for one. She is such a smartie, and would love to have a job. Today, I finally got her to drop a sock in the laundry basket instead of playing chase with it. And-I am not sure of this one-but I taught her the difference between hug and down...or at least started. But, she was just beginning to get on her hind legs when she was excited in the house, so I thought now might be make or break time. It is hard keeping up with her, but on the other hand I have been teaching her more commands and behaviors than I ever dreamed of in the last week or so, so she herself is probably struggling a bit in the rush of words.

Oh, and thanks RnP for asking me for a schedule. Not something I am inclined to look at or do. But, it was good for me to put it down on paper, so to speak.

Thank you all!
G


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Thank you for writing such a detailed post and including her schedule !

It might not be the case, but looking at your schedule I see no running loose, chasing ball or other really tiring physical activity. Such a young, energetic dog needs to run every day to help tire her out.

Also, being crate in the am and 2 hours in pm plus going to bed at 7 pm (even if you wake her at 9 to go pee) is a lot of sleep/quiet time.

Although you are providing very good care, I think she might not be getting the exercise (off leash) that she needs. Dogs who don’t get tired enough will be more out of control and hard to contain. A tired dog is a good dog


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Yes, not going off leash is hard for both of us. I am hoping it will only be for a week, maybe two, to extinguish the aggressive behavior when she was off leash that heightened since she turned 8 months and lock in place some commands that will bring her to a stop and up for air when she goes haywire. We walk by the balls laying about the yard and sigh...


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## Teddy’s mom (May 20, 2020)

I feel your pain in a lot of ways. I have a 4 month old standard and he’s kicking my butt and I have 3 kids! I can’t seem to find any local or semi local resources to help me. There’s so much info out there. Which is right? Which will work best? My stress levels r thru the roof. My breeder offers nothing. The latest suggestion was to sell him. Every day I do not look forward cause I know it’s gonna b hard and unenjoyable. I tried to contact a local breeder I found to see if they would help me out. If Alpha stuff isnt true why does our dog listen and respect my husband? My husband is very alpha and has not had much to do with our dog. But the moment he steps in a room teddy is ten hut. I wish I could help u but I can’t seem to help myself. Best of luck ♥


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Gladsome, here is the rest of the post. It's the middle part that I thought would be of interest.
And the whole FB group is awesome: Pandemic Puppy Raising Support Group.
Theory had an exciting day with her first baby pool experience on Saturday. She raced and played and revved her engine as fast as it would go. I let her play longer than I normally would have.

For the rest of that day, she showed no overt signs of being excessively tired. She wasn’t choosing to nap more than usual and she wasn’t slowing down. She wanted to wrestle with the big dogs. She wanted to train with me. She wanted to go back outside and be a crazy creature in the pool again.

But I knew she had used about three days worth of “battery” on that pool play in the morning. Even if she didn’t feel tired yet, she was exhausted — and whether she felt it now or not, her body would make her pay that debt at some point. It would not be kind to let her spend more energy when I knew she was already tapped out.

Separately, I also knew that she had had a massive load of self-reinforcement for “YEEHAW!” adrenaline play, which is very valuable to her. Given total freedom, I think she’d spend about half of her day in “YEEHAW!” mode — normal at this age, but also not something I want to encourage without checks and balances.

A puppy with strong opinions who has been frequently and intensely reinforced for living in “YEEHAW” mode _without_ equal weight on the calm-and-controlled side of the scale is a catastrophe waiting to happen when adolescence drops a match on that gasoline. Been there, done that with a past dog, not doing it again if I can dodge it.

So I try to be very deliberate about how many of the good things in her life are wild-and-crazy mode, and then either match or exceed that amount with good things in the thoughtful, calm and controlled categories. It’s easy to accidentally teach a puppy that wild-and-crazy is where _all_ the fun is. That’s not a lesson I want my puppies to learn.

I don’t mind letting my puppies find the end of their battery on occasion — but I also don’t want them to get used to living there. A tired dog may be a good dog, but an exhausted dog rarely is.

So instead of more wild-and-crazy, which Theo was asking for, she spent the rest of Saturday and all of Sunday mostly working on calmer forms of enrichment. We started the beginning of teaching a stand-stay. She worked on her Kongs, West Paw Toppls and trachea chews. Her lunch yesterday was a thoughtful scatter-feed so she could use her nose. Our training session last night was learning to settle calmly while one of my other dogs (her BFF) was in the room. She got very little playtime with the older dogs because she can’t regulate herself with that yet.

If she were younger, I would have helped her find a nap right after the pool, but at 17 weeks, I’m starting to give her a little more responsibility for monitoring her own battery level in small doses. I won’t let her completely trash herself (and I will stop her if she tries), but I will sometimes let her hang out in “ugh, so tired” for a while until a nap is her idea. That’s a privilege she has earned by being mostly responsible about her own sleep — if we were regularly having energy level issues or a lot of “bitey baby bullshit,” I would still be doing more of the steering on her nap choices.

When we say that you should be conscious of your dog’s energy level and prevent them from becoming overly tired, it doesn’t mean that they’re never allowed to have fun and have to live in a bubble forever.

It _does_ mean that you should be conscious of their capacity level, that you should prioritize calm/thoughtful experiences to prevent your puppy from becoming an adrenaline junkie, and that sometimes you’ll need to manually override your puppy’s opinions about how tired they are (in their own best interest) because you’re allowed to help your puppy find a nap when you know they need one.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Teddy’s mom said:


> I feel your pain in a lot of ways. I have a 4 month old standard and he’s kicking my butt and I have 3 kids! I can’t seem to find any local or semi local resources to help me. There’s so much info out there. Which is right? Which will work best? My stress levels r thru the roof. My breeder offers nothing. The latest suggestion was to sell him. Every day I do not look forward cause I know it’s gonna b hard and unenjoyable. I tried to contact a local breeder I found to see if they would help me out. If Alpha stuff isnt true why does our dog listen and respect my husband? My husband is very alpha and has not had much to do with our dog. But the moment he steps in a room teddy is ten hut. I wish I could help u but I can’t seem to help myself. Best of luck ♥


Dogs tend to be on their best behavior around people they don't know as well. My dog is the same way around my boyfriend because he doesn't see him as much and has less of a relationship with him. But he clearly loves me much more. Think of it as the way children behave better for their teacher than they do at home. Also dogs may naturally be more intimidated by men so are extra cautious because they don't know what repercussions might be. But once they get to know that scary figure more they'll start testing boundaries and acting out.

There are many different training methods and it is hard to choose. The problem is that dogs are all different, and the best method for one won't be the best method for another. If a person learns to train dogs by working with bully breeds, they'll be in for a shock if they try working with a poodle and won't have the same success. Another thing you'll find that differs is the sort of relationship a trainer wants from their dog. Different people are happy with different levels of communication and bonding. A heavily force-based method of training may work great with some dogs to get you high levels of compliance and general good behavior, but at the same time may erode trust between handler and dog. Or it might not. It depends on the dog. But poodles are soft dogs, and trust usually erodes easily with them. So some care must be taken in training. I'd rather have a great bond with a dog that has less than perfect behavior than a mediocre bond with an excellently behaved dog. Of course, the best case is to have both.


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## Teddy’s mom (May 20, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> Dogs tend to be on their best behavior around people they don't know as well. My dog is the same way around my boyfriend because he doesn't see him as much and has less of a relationship with him. But he clearly loves me much more. Think of it as the way children behave better for their teacher than they do at home. Also dogs may naturally be more intimidated by men so are extra cautious because they don't know what repercussions might be. But once they get to know that scary figure more they'll start testing boundaries and acting out.
> 
> There are many different training methods and it is hard to choose. The problem is that dogs are all different, and the best method for one won't be the best method for another. If a person learns to train dogs by working with bully breeds, they'll be in for a shock if they try working with a poodle and won't have the same success. Another thing you'll find that differs is the sort of relationship a trainer wants from their dog. Different people are happy with different levels of communication and bonding. A heavily force-based method of training may work great with some dogs to get you high levels of compliance and general good behavior, but at the same time may erode trust between handler and dog. Or it might not. It depends on the dog. But poodles are soft dogs, and trust usually erodes easily with them. So some care must be taken in training. I'd rather have a great bond with a dog that has less than perfect behavior than a mediocre bond with an excellently behaved dog. Of course, the best case is to have both.


I wish I had someone that could say teddy is like this and he does this for this reason and U need to do this. Cause on a scale of 1-10 10 being awesome and glad I’m a 1.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

We are fortunate to have so many folks good at training on this forum. Here are some links to training ideas Click-N-Treat and lily cd re participated in. Dechi is right about the physical exercise but when that's just not possible, mental exercise will help tire a pup out. 

They will require small bits of cooked chicken or other high value treats 

Search Results for Fun Vacuum









Search results for query: vacuum







www.poodleforum.com





Specifically look thru whole threads for some things to try. Beyond building desired behaviors, it's the building that matters









Advice for curbing squirrel reaction?


This is a relatively new thing for Cleo, just in the past couple weeks. (She just turned 9 months old.) We have squirrels occasionally traversing our tall fence, and she doesn't seem to mind them much, but when we're out walking and she spots one on the ground, even across a street from us, she...




www.poodleforum.com













I'm back and have a training question


Well, after chemo therapy, radiation and two heart ablations I'm finally feeling up to asking a question about my little guy Rudy. I've spent so much on training and I don't feel I've gotten anywhere. It's my fault, not his. I've tried three different trainings plus Susan Garett and maybe it's...




www.poodleforum.com













Terrible Twos?


Zephyr just turned two and will be getting neutered on Thursday. In the past month or so he has been getting a lot worse about coming when called, and I am wondering if this is normal adolescence, or is there something else going on. Most days we walk at one or another park, he is off leash...




www.poodleforum.com













Don't Care For Strangers


I have 1-1/2 year old Female standard, I want to see how other standards react to strangers. My girl is a wonderful dog, she goes with me everywhere that she is allowed, she is always on her best behavior, people think she is a service dog. But, she does not warm up to people, she will smell...




www.poodleforum.com





Another suggestion for leash mouthing and walks is to ask MaisieRose to carry something favorite in her mouth while walking, such as a ball or plushy toy. 
"Good news! I had a stroke of insight last night on our walk. Curry found a ball along the way that was just the right size and he happily carried it most of the way. He only tried to grab the leash once, when I took the ball away after he dropped it several times. I continued walking, ignoring the behavior and when he walked nicely I gave him back the ball and he held it all the way home.

But that is not when I had the insight. This morning after our big play he immediately - and vigorously - was pulling at the leash and nothing would deter him and we could not proceed forward. Then it popped in my head that he needs something in his mouth! Duh! Someone maybe already suggested this but it takes time for great ideas to penetrate my skull sometimes.

Curry is happiest on a walk when he finds anything he can carry in his mouth. So, I gave him our fetch ball and he was delighted to carry it most of the way home. When he dropped it for the third time, I picked it up and put it in my pocket. He started pulling at the leash, but not vigorously. After walking ahead a little way I gave him the water bottle to hold and voila! Happy, calm dog.

Just thought I would post this in case anyone else is having trouble like this. I guess it's true that Poodles really do better when they have a job."


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Starvt... thank you for that posting from FB. Theo has a very thoughtful human to work and live with! 
Teddy’s mom...I don’t know enough to help you much, I am afraid. But, when I went back to teaching my dog the basic commands twice a day, every day, I was amazed how she became easier after about a week. I hope one of your kids is just old enough to train Teddy with his commands, too. That would take a bit of the load off you, and be fun for both of them..The other fun thing is playing hide and find with a good scented treat. Put Teddy in a stay and leave the room as far as you are able without him breaking the stay, and hide the treat. Then come back and release him from the stay and tell him to “find”! I do it only about three times at a go, but my dog loves it. As far as being so discouraged as to not look forward to the day, I have been there. Crying when I go to bed, crying before I get up. I hope you have a strong faith that lets you know you are never alone. But, if you read through this forum enough, you will also know you are not alone, and these trying days you are having right now will pass and get better.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

@Teddy's mom

I think what I am learning is that there is a difference between confidence and alphaness... Dogs respond really well to confident calm clear body language. With Annie, I have noticed when I get flustered or anxious or upset, she reflects my mood aND is suddenly on her craziest behaviour. If I take a deep breath, firm my shoulders, still myslef, and use a deep calm firm, quiet voice, Annie immediately calms a bit, and is far more likely to do as I ask. If I frame things as an expectation, not a question, she listens better. How do you become more condident? Fake it til you make it, or at least that's the only way I learned it  if I expect Annie to misbehave, she obliges and does so. I have two best friends. One loves Annie, the other is a bit afraid of her. Anine behaves beautifully for the calm quiet friend, and like a wild and crazy thing for the friend who squeaks at her in a high pitched voice and is full of nervous energy. 

@gladsome... I agree with Dechi about Maisie Rose needing some opportunities for wild and crazy time- under your control. Annie drives me nuts if she doesn't get regular free running time. I am trying to think of a way to get her that with you still feeling safe, and without reinforcing the bratty nipping. 

Do you have a screen or glass door to the backyard? I wonder if you could put her outside, then go inside, close the door, and get her favourite soccer ball. Stand in the doorway with the ball, ask for a sit. If she does, throw the ball as far as possible, let her chase it. If you have a second ball, grab that. Call her back, ask for a sit, throw the ball. Then inside time. Maybe the next time you play, try three balls, then four balls, etc, always leaving her nlt too tired (will power is hard work) and wanting more. If she tries to jump you grab you etc, close the door in her face, walk inside. Ask for a sit from inside the door. If she sits, start opening the door, if she stands up, slam it shut again. What you are trying to teach her is to regulate arousal levels, and go from crazy to calm, at your instructiom, and that being calm is highly rewarding. Maybe not a game for today, maybe not a game for tomorrow, but on a day you are having a good day?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Another personal "puppy woes" anecdote, in case it's helpful.....

My last dog Gracie (1/2 minipoo) was a little marshmallow. Everyone she met fell in love with her. People who didn't like dogs asked where they could "get a Gracie."

Wanna know the truth? I cried weekly, if not daily, my first year with her. I was _so_ overwhelmed. I even made the (horrible) decision to get a second puppy, thinking they could tire each other out and take some of the weight off my shoulders. Instead, not surprisingly, I ended up with _two_ wild puppies.

Lucky for me, my retired parents stepped up to fix my mistake and take my second puppy. I include that slightly embarrassing detail here as a reminder that while it's obviously not ideal to bounce a dog around, there's no shame in rehoming him, _assuming you do the work to find him a forever home that really is a better fit_. Sometimes that's the kindest thing to do. And then—this is so important—learn from your misstep(s).

Back to Gracie: I had many breakthroughs with her over the years, but the biggest was when she started going to work with me. This is when we both hit our stride, and the tears stopped once and for all (until it was time to say goodbye, of course).

Poodles 1) love routine, but also 2) hate being bored. The most basic behaviour issues I've encountered can be solved just by keeping those two things in mind.

By coming to work with me, Gracie got 3 walks a day at roughly the same time each day (urban walk to work - lunchtime sniff & potty - urban walk home, with a detour through a green space). She got to interact with a variety of people (my coworkers, couriers, and any clients who came to visit). And we were both pooped in the evening after our busy day, so we'd relax together, fully on the same wavelength.

We continued this routine for years and it's now my template for a happy poodle.

Of course, Peggy has much longer legs, so walks aren't going to cut it for exercise. But the general ingredients are the same: Exercise the body, exercise the brain, exercise the bond. Every day without fail. And respect your poodle's desire to know what's next, whether that's thorough consistent routine or just consistent cues.

The training minutiae is important, but I believe it's secondary to that foundation. You need to understand where your dog is coming from, and what she is trying to accomplish when she "misbehaves." Until you drill down to this, you're just kinda stabbing around, making each other crazy.

So on that note:

*Why is Maisie Rose (love the name, by the way!) biting you and her leash?*


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Day 1...again...but with a difference. PTP. You ask why Maisie Rose has been mouthing me and biting the leash, and I just didn’t know why. The last two weeks, I just buckled down and worked with her as thoughtfully and intensely as I could. But, the last 5-6 days, she seemed to regress to a 4 month old again. The mouthing increased, not lessened. Always, mouth, mouth, mouth. And, every day, at least once a day, she would pick a fight out in the yard, even on leash. I know it was play to her, but I will call it a fight, as that is how it always feels to me. I was so frustrated, because with all the training, I could see that she was getting it, that she knew right behavior, but was choosing the bad. 
Yesterday was the pits. First thing in the morning, on our first outing of the day, I was still letting her off leash to do her business. Because that had always gone OK. So, I was just walking the yard when she body checked me from behind with a force that would have made any pro hockey playerproud. If I weighed a bit less, I know I would have kissed the ground. There was no trigger. I feel she just did it for the enjoyment of it. I handled it just as I should have. I went into the greenhouse and shut the door. It took at least 4 times in and out before she settled down enough to sit and stay and I could leash her. But, it was just a bad day with the mouthing and acting out. She started taking things off the tables to chew. Something she had never been inclined to do. She kept bumping and nipping my clothes, and my husband, too, and she is just the wrong height and my husband was getting really annoyed by her. She barked and strained at the leash when some delivery men came and I took her out to meet them. One was afraid, I think. The other was friendly to her, but she was unable to sit.
I had a bad sleep, and this morning, decided this was make or break day for her...that it just couldn’t keep going on like this on a wing and a prayer that someday would be better. I thought of a couple of new approaches or tasks for her. (I just haven’t found the time to read all, or any, of the material that has been shared with me so far. Except the postings. I will, and I just got in the Culture Clash book, but the days fly by...). I hope it doesn’t sound harsh, but for 6 months now (she is 8 1/2 months old), it has all been about the dog. Night and day. This morning I thought I didn’t want a dog running my life. I wanted a dog to share my life. I knew she knew. She knew that mouthing was not wanted, she knew what mouthing was, and could keep her mouth closed when asked. I think all the treats did confuse the matter somewhat. She might have been mouthing, so I would tell her to close, so that she could close and get a treat. And, she was getting it that jumping me in the yard, or jumping on me or my husband in the house was not good behavior. 
But, today, I wanted more. I wanted never to feel her teeth again. I decided that I was not going to put up with any small bit of tongue and tasting even. I was just done with it. She was old enough and I realized I was likely to be one of those poodle people who rehome the dog just when they are about to improve. But, I didn’t care to wait another four months. What if she never improved? I was no longer certain that a good dog was going to happen to me. It made me really sad to be in that hole again.
So, in my mind, I called it Make or Break Day. But, in reality, it became Day 1 of Good Maisie Rose Day. Maybe it was God, maybe it was Maisie Rose. But, today started out different from all the other days. She didn’t start off with mouthing. And, I was totally firm about no mouthing. If she mouthed, whatever we were doing, I stopped and got up and left her by herself to figure out why her friend found something else to do. She was really good on her walks. She wasn’t perfect all day (yes, she started jumping on me and might have escalated it, but I had brought a soft toy to defuse it, and it worked...and I left her and went in the house and shut the door.). But, we were able to play fetch. We did the extra training I had planned, and she wanted to keep at it, but I cut it short since it was new. We can practice tomorrow. She showed me that there really was improvement coming down the pike. Maybe not in a straight line, but with fits and starts we would eventually get to a better place. And, probably tomorrow won’t be a stellar day, because workmen are coming first thing in the morning to start work on putting in a cement apron to the garage and we will have to change our routine, the door we use to go in/out, there will be no free play in the yard, etc. I thank our good God for today that came just in time...and before everything is a bit chaotic tomorrow, and before I threw in the towel... 
I write this as an update... To log in a happy day for a change. But, also to note that first time poodle people, like me, may just be unable to see that they are going to get through this terrible adolescent period with their pup. Ever. I don’t know what to tell them, except that I just started believing.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so happy to hear you saw some positive progress, and am also worried about the make or break/all or nothing sentiments. 

I can't stress enough that this is a journey that requires a commitment. Peggy, in many ways, is more challenging at 12 months than she was at 8 months. She's smarter, more coordinated, more confident, and still in so many ways a puppy. And she has _way_ more stamina.

If you haven't raised a puppy before, how can you know how to train one without any coherent guidance and without doing the reading? That's like expecting to understand high school calculus without attending a class or opening a textbook. 

And I don't mean that to shame you! Goodness no. There's no shame at all in being new to something. I say it to help you understand why you feel the situation is so far over your head most days—it's because it is! 

This is why you'll often see us encouraging soon-to-be poodle owners to do their homework before their puppy arrives. It's a lot. Dogs aren't humans and we don't automatically know how to bridge that species gap. And the whole time we're trying to figure it out, life keeps chugging on, with all its other joys and responsibilities, and our puppies keep growing and changing every day, just when we think we've figured them out!

I totally understand that feeling of your life currently revolving around a dog. In many ways, having a puppy is similar to having a baby. And then a toddler. And then a lovely child. You're her sun, moon, and stars! Finally! Hooray! And then (ohmigosh-is-it-ever-going-to-be-over???) you've got a headstrong teen whose brain seems to turn on and off without warning.

For Maisie Rose and for you, don't you think it's time you make a decision about tomorrow? And the next day and the next? It will be much easier to successfully rehome her now than it may ever be again.

And if you do decide she's your dog, and you want to journey on with her, spend 2 hours tonight or tomorrow night reading one of your recommended resources cover to cover. You don't need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to training. Defer to the experts. That in itself will take much of the burden from your shoulders.

Since you're probably overwhelmed with everything that's been recommended, I'm going to say that Spirit Dog is what I would choose if I were in your present situation. 

Sending hugs and high fives and lots of good energy your way.


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## gladsome (Jun 6, 2020)

Well, you surprised me, PtP, and made me sad, and I am just at the start of a new day. I guess my take-away from your posting is that Maisie Rose, as I said, is showing me that she is “getting it” and showing progress...but, I am not. I am guessing you may be right. I cannot give her the 100% of my day. I figure I have three hours for myself each day, her nap time in the morning and afternoon. And, I have not been using them to read about poodles, it is true. I have virtually no time to read, and gave that luxury up when Maisie Rose came. My house is dirty, my garden is weedy, my paints are dry, emails go unanswered...but my husband and my dog seem happy enough now after a rough go, and get the time I can give them. Today Maisie Rose’s nap time will be spent on a roof, helping my husband put on decking. I try to keep up with the watering of my garden, but plants I bought sit in pots. I don’t have time to read and post on the forum, but steal it away from another task I should be doing, and this forum right now, is my learning. I will have to stop the forum in order to use this time to read a few pages of a book, and I did use to read over my meals, and that is some time I can use to educate myself some more. That is the time now that I am using to post this. I just have to switch learning tools...
I am worried that you mentioned rehoming her instead of encouraging me after a good day, but I figure or wonder if you read some truth that I am missing between the lines, and I am failing her. Just when it seemed to me that we were beginning to communicate better and she wasn’t chewing on me so much, because I had started with a firmer “no”. 
I am sure I am not the ideal owner for her; I am sure she is not the ideal dog for me. I just wasn’t taking it to the next level as being sure we couldn’t make it together. Now, I have got to think some more...and get on with the day.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I think we don't stress enough on this forum that some poodles aren't really first-time-dog dogs. Annie, before 6 months, was a perfect puppy. After 6 months? Yikes. Your MaisieRose sounds very much like my Annie, and I have had some strong moments of "OMG, I am so glad this isn't my first dog, she's way harder than any puppy I've ever had before!"( and my parents who have both had many dogs, have said similar things). You can do it, I have faith in you, but it will be hard, and some professional help might be good. For me, one 1 hr session with a very experienced positive trainer of collies competing at the highest level of dog sports was a lifesaver. She was very experienced with crazy energetic smart dogs who are awful to live with if not kept occupied (sound familiar?)

Read Culture Clash. Just start with the first chapter. The premise of the book is the huge clash between what we expect as humans, and what dogs expect, and how we can reconcile the differences, and communicate more clearly. It seems to resonate with what's going on with you.

Then go, stick Maisie in a crate for 2 hours, ignore her, and go do something for yourself. There is absolutely no reason for her to own all of your life. Go out with your husband, go to a park, go for a drive, and have some dog-free time without guilt. She is a dog, she will adjust, and she needs to learn to settle down. If you were working full time (I was when I got Annie) she would be crated and bored all day anyways. Annie has to put up with me working for 4 hrs a day, and being ignored, and put up with me gardening and ignoring her all the time. So don't feel guilty. Hell, give yourself a scheduled 4 hours of "Maisie in a crate time" a day (and maybe put her to bed a bit later). It will be good for both of you.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

gladsome, I read your story and what strikes me is the way you describes your puppy’s play as aggression and voluntary acts of trying to be despiteful (like when she almost made you fall to the ground).

To me, after raising many, many puppies, everything you are describing is just puppy play and rambunctious behavior of a puppy who doesn’t have enough exercise and mental stimulation.

What PTP is trying to say, I think, is that you have to think of the dog well being, as well as your own. There is no shame in rehoming a dog who doesn’t fit your lifestyle, as long as you give it the home it deserves. In the case of your dog, it needs a home with an active lifestyle, where it will get lots of stimulation and exercise. A home with experience with active/very active dogs and puppies.

If your dog was in my house, I would go nuts because the energy level she has is not suited to me. In fact I would be miserable. On the other hand, I have 2 toy poodles that I can deal with and they make my life more complete. But even that, raising Beckie as a puppy took all my days for close to a year. That is something to expect with any puppy. Some dogs will need less time, but a year is not uncommon.

I think a calm, adult dog would be much more suited to your family. And maybe not a poodle, at least not a young one.

I hope you find the best answer for you and your family.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi Gladsome and Maisie Rose! (and husband!)

I won't try to speak for PTP but I'll respond as if I'd written them and with my own thoughts. 

You came to PF asking for help in making a decision but what I felt underneath was that you wanted to find a way to make things work. The difficulty is that you have a hard time finding your center, your calm, your confidence and then be able to give that to Maisie Rose. This is completely understandable. We think of puppies as sweet, soft, cuddly little creatures, whatever their size, but the reality is, and I say this lovingly, that they are also selfish little monsters. They can't help it. I've never had children, and I know a lot of people get unhappy when puppies are compared to human babies but there are a lot of parallels. Babies are pretty much universal in behavior. They do take all our time. That's a given. And they do grow up and take our time differently. It's a while before they're able to give as much as they take, but boy howdy, once you get there....it's just wonderful and amazing and the best there is. 

I read your post as a marker. Yes, Make it or Break it is a harsh position, and it comes from not yet being fully centered. I think you were saying that it was your Make it or Break it day, not Maisie Rose's and you made it! You were going to be done with the highs and the lows (ok less of them, realistically) and find your center and work from there. 
Another secret about training a dog is that you are actually training yourself. Puppies can be difficult, no way around that, but finding your calm, confident center and returning to that place will go a long way to success. Every time you stepped away from MaisieCrazy, you got your center back and so she could find hers too. You were having your own behavior extinction. Maisie Rose is just a puppy. She's going to be a puppy for a while yet but even as a puppy, her behavior will change, usually improve, and then there will be the next challenge - all rewarding once the challenge is met. 

Until or unless you can find a trainer or training class or find the time to read more or view videos (been there!!), there really are only a few things that you need to remember. 

Reward instantly behavior you want. Don't reward behavior you don't want. Puppies learn by the results that they get. They do what you want, they get a reward. They don't do what you want they don't get a reward. They will crave the reward whether treats, or toy, or play, or closeness and if their behavior doesn't get some reward they will give that behavior up as an unproductive strategy. 

Take heart, keep going back to your center and have a productive and fun day!


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Also remember that some behaviors are self rewarding for the dog, which means that they just enjoy doing them. These behaviors will not fade out from being ignored by you. These behaviors must be managed so that either she doesn't get the opportunity to do them, or so that there is a negative consequence for her when she does them. 

One example is jumping on you and biting and tearing your clothes. It's fun for her. Ignoring that will not get her to stop, you must manage that behavior. Also chasing squirrels (or cats or the mailman or cars or anything else that moves). Also leaping up and grabbing things off the kitchen counter. For puppies it is a very long list! When she does something you don't want her to do you have to ask if she is doing it because she likes to do that, or because of the way you react to her doing it. If the former, you have to manage the behavior, if the latter, ignoring it will mean she is less likely to do that in future.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh no! I'm sorry for making you feel sad! I was, believe it or not, trying to do the opposite. Rather clunky attempt, I guess. And I'm so sorry for that.

It was a few things you said that made me want to reassure you, warn you, and also support you: Reassure you that it's okay to feel in over your head. Warn you that this one good day, while marvellous, doesn't signal the end of Maisie's challenges. And support you in whatever you decide to do.

These are the things you said that compelled me:



gladsome said:


> I had a bad sleep, and this morning, decided this was make or break day for her





gladsome said:


> But, today, I wanted more. I wanted never to feel her teeth again.





gladsome said:


> I called it Make or Break Day





gladsome said:


> Day 1 of Good Maisie Rose Day.


If I misunderstood where your head was at, I really am very sorry. And if I could travel back through time, I'd offer up only encouragement as it seems that's what you need from us now. I'm sorry for getting my response so wrong.

Hope today is another good day, maybe even better than the last!

-Robin


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

gladsome said:


> Well, you surprised me, PtP, and made me sad, and I am just at the start of a new day. I guess my take-away from your posting is that Maisie Rose, as I said, is showing me that she is “getting it” and showing progress...but, I am not. I am guessing you may be right. I cannot give her the 100% of my day. I figure I have three hours for myself each day, her nap time in the morning and afternoon. And, I have not been using them to read about poodles, it is true. I have virtually no time to read, and gave that luxury up when Maisie Rose came. My house is dirty, my garden is weedy, my paints are dry, emails go unanswered...but my husband and my dog seem happy enough now after a rough go, and get the time I can give them. Today Maisie Rose’s nap time will be spent on a roof, helping my husband put on decking. I try to keep up with the watering of my garden, but plants I bought sit in pots. I don’t have time to read and post on the forum, but steal it away from another task I should be doing, and this forum right now, is my learning. I will have to stop the forum in order to use this time to read a few pages of a book, and I did use to read over my meals, and that is some time I can use to educate myself some more. That is the time now that I am using to post this. I just have to switch learning tools...
> I am worried that you mentioned rehoming her instead of encouraging me after a good day, but I figure or wonder if you read some truth that I am missing between the lines, and I am failing her. Just when it seemed to me that we were beginning to communicate better and she wasn’t chewing on me so much, because I had started with a firmer “no”.
> I am sure I am not the ideal owner for her; I am sure she is not the ideal dog for me. I just wasn’t taking it to the next level as being sure we couldn’t make it together. Now, I have got to think some more...and get on with the day.


Hi there,

I haven't read this whole thread, but I have read some of it. Based on the above response, my question is the following: do you feel that a *puppy* is right for you at this time in your life?

Maybe an older dog from a good breeder would be a better fit (possibly even a more laid-back breed). Yes, you still have to work on training with an older dog, but puppies are a whole different story. Do not feel guilty if you feel that a puppy is not right for you at this time. It truly is like having a toddler in the house. I am not trying to discourage, but I am asking a question I was asked a few years back. When I decided to get a new dog from a rescue 2 years ago, I was asked to honestly look at the responsibilities in my life before determining the age of the dog I could manage. And I had to tell them: no puppies.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I see two yous, and it's understandable. I see the uncertain you and I see the confident you. I would expect it to follow that the Good Maisie Rose days are the days you are confident, in her ability to learn and your ability to help her learn, then there are the uncertain days when the results aren't what you need to continue believing. 

That is a crux. Believing only when there are results will be disappointing. Believing in both your abilities, regardless of missteps is what can make a difference.

I worked as a supervisor and trainer for most of my 29 years at my final job. I had rotating crew members and they had rotating supervisors. At periodic meetings I'd hear complaints about some employees performance which I just didn't experience. I talked about this with my manager and we had to conclude that either I was oblivious to problems or, because I simply expected them to always do their best, they rose to the expectation, occasional mistakes notwithstanding. Given the fact that I held that position for those years successfully with full support of the owner and our clients, we had to go with the latter conclusion.

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, there are going to be missteps and falls as well as forward progress. If you can stay steadfast and believe that you are both capable, then those missteps are just learning for both of you, they don't define the success or lack of.

You and Maisie Rose (and your husband) are all partners in this adventure. What do you want it to be today, tomorrow, ten years from now?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I hope you don't give up. Puppies are hard and a really smart poodle pup can be really hard. If you search way back in some of my posts and threads you will see that Lily and I had a really rough start and we were raising two pups at once to boot. There were many days when I wnated to tie both of the pups to the stop sign on the corner of our property with signs on their necks saying something to the effect of "free if you can stand to be around these dogs." I didn't give up but stuck with it with her and we own each other heart and soul and have for many years now. You do have to change your life somewhat at the beginning. I never touched any knitting for about a year since I would have killed Lily if she had come and ripped up a project I cared about (and I don't use Michael's sorts of yarn so I care about all of it). Things will get better.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

When we made the decision to keep Peggy, it was that decision that kept me going through the rough bits. Does that make sense? It was like I needed to mentally remove my plan B to commit to plan A.

But, reflecting on this a little more, I can see how keeping that plan B tucked away might offer reassurance. Even confidence. And taking a "one day at a time" approach is probably what is working best for you right now.

I remember posting here about a particularly unpleasant Peggy episode, and saying something to the effect of "I'm done!!!!!"

I wasn't done. Clearly. But in that moment I needed to feel the relief of shouting it from the rooftops, that I'd reached my breaking point.

And then I got up the next morning and kept going. 

I hope you'll keep us updated on Maisie Rose's progress. You could even start fresh at some point with a "Maisie's Journey" thread so that pesky rehome word isn't constantly lurking about.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I am just going to say that if you do decide you would like to have a calmer life, I too would suggest an older more relaxed dog, that has already had a lot of training. If you do decide to re-home her, please either have her go back to her breeder,or if she is from a good breeder and the breeder does not want her back, then go to a good poodle rescue. Good poodle rescues will make a huge effort to both work on training, and find her an experienced person who can work with difficult dogs. ( Please don't try to give her to someone else, or to a shelter, unless a rescue won't take her. I think she deserves better. )

My Spoo was a challenge, as I have described before, and his sister was too, and ended up being given back to the breeder. She was so relieved to get her back and find an owner who could handle her and better train her. Some poodle rescues are amazing. There are actually some trainers that love a challenge, love to be able to take a difficult dog and create a miraculous change. ( I used to be like that with horses. But I was actually rather sad when I used only gentleness and the wildness left them. The next owner loved it, but I actually enjoyed the crazy challenge. I would actually work on being in a meditative state and sort of calm the horse that way, totally relaxed. That was long ago. I am 74 now and totally enjoy calm... No more challenges for me 

I am crossing my fingers for you, and for your husband, and for Maisie Rose, that everyone ends up happy and leading a fulfilled life.


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

cowpony said:


> Great article Rose n Poos.
> 
> The absolute worst dog fight I've ever had to break up was started by a shock collar. The dog being shocked thought the other dog caused it and attacked. The innocent dog ended up needing close to 100 stitches.


OMG!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

cowpony said:


> The absolute worst dog fight I've ever had to break up was started by a shock collar. The dog being shocked thought the other dog caused it and attacked. The innocent dog ended up needing close to 100 stitches.


Thanks for reminding me of this Beaches. I had so much going on when I first saw it that I didn't have time to respond. I can totally understand that happening. 

Even with a human. One time a friend of mine got a nasty note and she thought she knew who it was from and cut off her friendship. The other woman could never figure out what happened and was horribly upset. Very sad.

I chose not to use shock collars for sure.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> Even with a human. One time a friend of mine got a nasty note and she thought she knew who it was from and cut off her friendship. The other woman could never figure out what happened and was horribly upset. Very sad.


This is a good, relatable analogy. 

I had a dear friend abruptly cut off our friendship in high school. That experience fundamentally shaped the person I grew into—my self-confidence and sense of self-worth, my trust in female friendships.

Fast forward to my late 30s and it suddenly clicked: The boy with whom she was infatuated liked ME. I turned down his advances, and thought all was well. But of course it wasn't. She ended our friendship, more likely than not, for reasons that were beyond my control. 

Even now, with that intellectual awareness of what really happened, I still have a sore spot inside me and struggle to trust friends. How many dogs have those same lifelong sore spots because of confusing or harsh training methods? 

We need to foster confidence in our companions by training kindly, fairly, and clearly.


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## Beaches1 (Jul 9, 2017)

This discussion touched me in a way no others have. The moderator is wonderful - caring and compassionate. All of the interacting PF members shared stories with Gladsome that were kind and respectful. Gladsome, you let us in and touched our hearts. Thank you members for helping her through this. I have a feeling the bond between Maizie Rose and her Mom will be an inspiration for many new Poodle Moms. Thank you!


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