# The Harsh Truth About Why Our Sport Is Dying



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I ran across this 2016 article and am curious to what others think about it, and if or how much it applies to poodle dog shows of various kinds. The comment section in it is interesting too.

The Harsh Truth About Why Our Sport Is Dying


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I could not get through that rambling article, but I will say I agree that the sport is full of elderly people who do not welcome outsiders. You have to have a very tough skin to compete in conformation. Even taking obedience and rally classes at an AKC training club can be a very hostile experience until you are "accepted" into the cliques. At first I was very put off by it, but now I only care about teaching my dog and having fun with him. And the people do warm up eventually. I'm part of a very nice rally group right now.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Zooey's Mom, this elderly person hopes you find others who are welcoming and helpful. I am sorry there are those who are not so nice.


I showed and judged for quite a few years. Then I met my partner. She hated the rudeness at dog shows and refused to go to them. That was over 20 years ago. During those years I participated in agility - no rudeness there, thank goodness. Now I am back to conformation with Zoe. So far all has been sweetness and light, but I will probably run into some of the meanies eventually.


I am pleased that AKC now publishes the Sportsmanship Code, but I hope there will be teeth in it for those who cannot be civil. Right now there are so many people in the US who think it is just fine to be rude, abusive, and hateful.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I doubt this is really new behavior, but it does seem to be easier perhaps for some people to be bullying and unsportsman-like since that behavior is on display every day in many aspects of life from children who bully the insecure into killing themselves to POTUS giving crude nicknames to those who are out of his favor.


Personally I found agility to be the most clique-ish venue I've shown in, but I've seen rude snarky people in all venues and I just keep on keeping on in my own way and having my own connection to my dogs through our activities together. I have made some wonderful friends along the way, but for those who aren't my friends my feeling is it is their loss.


ETA here is a link to the code of sportsmanship that Johanna referred to. It applies to all AKC sports. https://images.akc.org/pdf/AKC_code_of_sportsmanship.pdf


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I once checked on AKC fines and penalties and saw a number of unsportsmanlike conduct, embarrassment to the AKC (Tell me more...!) and charges of cruelty handed out to exhibitors. This was in conformation. Someone on PF once wrote that dog people aren’t necessarily good with their own species. Kind of a broad brush, because I have seen terrible behavior by adults with children in sports. Verbal abuse of players, referees. They weren’t the majority of parents or coaches, and it’s safe to say it’s likely the same on the conformation circuit.

We hate to think of conformation as stock shows/beauty contests but that’s what they are. A lot of people have skin in the game. The breeder, the owner, the syndicate (multiple owners) the rock star handler. If anything is killing conformation as a “sport” it’s the cost of campaigning, professional handlers, an entourage of aestheticians, not to mention the cost of a dog that has a chance. That’s why I always back a breeder/handler, owner/handler if I am viewing conformation as a sport.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't watch conformation shows that closely because I am usually showing in obedience or rally while the breed rings are ongoing at a large cluster, but I can say that these issues don't only apply to conformation. Entries in obedience are down, but I suspect that is because lots of people have decided agility is more fun (though I don't know how you can be successful in agility without good obedience skills).


Sadly there are issues in my sports too. I've seen people be harsh to their dogs many times outside obedience rings, but only once have I seen a judge deal with it. A judge stopped her ring and went to the nearby crating area and had a long talk with a handler about harsh corrections. The AKC rep got in on that talk too. One other incident I know was dealt with by AKC involved a dog (GSD) who threatened an attack on a steward at an obedience trial. I actually know the dog well enough to get him to work for me. The incident was the handlers fault. By her own admission she is a terrible handler. She is elderly and trying to work a 100 pound GSD wearing flip flops and barely weighing more than the dog. I can heel him nicely and he will do most of the utility exercises for me, but he and his owner are banned for the real threat the dog made to the steward who was trying to leave the ring with his article bag.


As Mfmst noted we can all be unsportsmanlike in many venues, parents yell at their kids coaches, get in fights with each other, professionals take performance enhancing drugs......We shouldn't be surprised at such things in dog sports either. I had a professional handler tell me once to not let my niece handle her won dog if she wanted to show in junior showmanship but rather to find a veteran dog to show because junior handlers is seriously cutthroat.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

This makes me almost not want to compete with Noelle. I have enough problems without being treated rudely by strangers. I'm completely new to trials and will be showing in Obedience Novice A and Rally Novice A in September or October. Question, should I avoid poodle specialty shows because Noelle is a controversial size? She's 17.5 at the withers, and would be listed as a Standard, but it's obvious she's too small to be a Standard and too big to be a mini. I can see how that could cause a stir. The last thing I need is a whole bunch of angry people giving me the stink eye. "What are you doing here with us?" 

Why do I feel like I'm getting ready for the first day in junior high and heading into the lunchroom alone?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click I hope my comments aren't part of what has made you more nervous than you needed to be. Remember that I have been stewarding, match judging and showing in obedience and rally for almost 8 years. Lily and I have been to enough trials to have double Qd for RAE legs 90 times. The few things that I talked about above are the few things I have seen in all that time at all those shows. Judges in the obedience novice A and rally novice A classes are generally hugely supportive and encouraging. The novice A handlers will all be, as you are, newbies. You will be fine and the people around you will be fine.


I stewarded at a local obedience trial a few months ago and worked with the judge who did the only novice A person who entered. For beginner novice A/B and for novice A the judges always give a briefing and there is a walk through for the heeling pattern. This judge was so warm and welcoming to the young woman who was showing. He talked to her before he judged novice B and asked her if she wanted to do her sits and downs with the B handlers or by herself. He made comments about the pros and cons to both options. She decided to do the stays on her own and he then encouraged her to watch at least one or two of the novice B teams. After they finished he did his full briefing for her about the heeling pattern, where the stand for exam would be and the like. He really took his time and made her feel very welcome and supported. Clearly he takes to heart that the novice A handlers are the future of the sport. In obedience I would say 99.9% of judges get that and are nice and supportive, but this judge was fabulous.


Obedience tends to suffer from a few people who are way too serious to have fun, but you can see them a mile away and avoid them with ease. Two of my closest local obedience friends have had at least one OTCh. They are not snobby at all. One of them is my private trainer and the other comes to my club to train and has been a wealth of information to me. Don't worry about people being snarky over how Noelle is out of size. The only thing anyone will care about once you get there is that the jumps are set to the right height. I have a friend with an oversize mini who shows and my mom's mini is barely 10.5 inches tall and nobody has ever questioned the size of the dogs, poodle specialty people included.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Click-N-Treat said:


> I'm completely new to trials and will be showing in Obedience Novice A and Rally Novice A in September or October.


I don't think obedience/rally people will care at all about Noelle's size, and showing Novice A you will get a lot less rudeness than you would in the B classes where you are showing against "career" handlers. From what I've seen, Novice A handlers are welcomed warmly by both judges and other competitors.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I am old enough now that I accept..there will always be rude people, always be bullies, always be those who just like to disagree but now I don't care. I am respectful, follow rules, taught my children to do the same and I don't let it stop me from trying to do anything. This is just life.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Click, I agree, "A" people and judges are super nice to newbies! You won't have a problem. The first time doing it I felt out of place and awkward, but by the next time it was fine. Some conformation people including poodle people still give me the stink eye because Frosty is usually stripped for Fast CAT, but I don't give that a second thought.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Well, in that case... We're going for it.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Well, in that case... We're going for it.





As you should. You and Noelle are the total package!


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I dunno if we're the total package. I am going to all trials remembering that NQ is Noelle's middle name. I know that there are people who take obedience super seriously. I went to a club that trained intensely, like every dog needed to get 200 points at every trial or they would commit suicide. I'm not interested in being that intense. I just want to do things with my dog because it builds our relationship. It's my relationship with Noelle that matters to me, and the only thing I want to share with the world is that relationship. If what I am doing harms our relationship, I'll stop. 

We've had several run throughs with the Novice exercises. Noelle would have qualified the last four times through. Some lagging on the figure eight, a few crooked sits, but, the rest of this she would have done well. I'm looking forward to our first trial. Get a leg, or get an NQ, either way we'll have walked through the door and tried something new. And that matters.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

From what I've seen, the intro/novice levels for most dog sports are really friendly, and they get more intense as you work your way up (there's also fewer people competing at those levels, hence the cliquishness). Especially Rally and Agility. I haven't been around tracking or nosework to know what they're like.

I agree that in conformation, the cost factor is the biggest thing keeping people out. Especially in Poodles and other breeds that have strict grooming requirements. I can't imagine the time and expense it takes to maintain a spoo in a show coat, both for a show and in the dog's everyday life. It's always seemed a little silly to me -- you really don't need that specific cut in order to evaluate coat, especially when people have to add products to it to get it to even look right. Show cuts are lovely, but they're not a necessary feature of the breed.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Click-N-Treat said:


> I just want to do things with my dog because it builds our relationship. It's my relationship with Noelle that matters to me, and the only thing I want to share with the world is that relationship. If what I am doing harms our relationship, I'll stop.
> 
> We've had several run throughs with the Novice exercises. Noelle would have qualified the last four times through. Some lagging on the figure eight, a few crooked sits, but, the rest of this she would have done well. I'm looking forward to our first trial. Get a leg, or get an NQ, either way we'll have walked through the door and tried something new. And that matters.



That's the spirit! To me, the big idea is to enjoy it. It is nice to get a leg, though!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

The only thing that's aloof in my Poodle world in Tonka. 
What a snob...
He prefers to ignore everybody!


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

It does seem that the performance sports would be more welcoming and supportive to newcomers than the conformation world. The economic barriers to entry are lower than for conformation and the reward is more of personal achievement than a branding/ monetary one. Professional handlers becoming the norm rather than the exception in performance would signal the end to me. I don’t see that happening. As long as your dog loves you and is happy in the rings, nice people will be drawn to you


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

On the other hand, I have found that my closest friends are dog show people. When I began in was very fortunate and a local breeder good me under her wing. She had a small operation and at the time had two standards in the top 10. I asked her if she could take a look at my new apricot standard (she bred whites and was just starting in silvers) she nervously said all she could do was give me her opinion,. At that time I didn't realize she was setting the stage to let me down. She took on look at my girl and in a surprised voice state "she is pretty! " then she told me I had to take her around back,,,,, kind of surprised, I asked her why. " IF YOU ARE GOING TO LEARN HOW TO SHOW THIS GIRL, YOU NEED TO LEARN HOW GOOD GROOMER HER!" I had my first show grooming lesson that day.

Yes it is said, dog showing is for old people. I agree. I don't see young people interested. The school age children are too interest in video games and everything being quick and easy. I joke and say a young person will buy a show potential at 8 weeks old, and at 10 weeks want to know if it is champions yet!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I so yearn for the days when the show world was a community, where the ladies who competed would look after one another's babies while their competitor was in the ring and would attend each other's weddings, baby christenings and tupperware parties! Everyone got along and were friends, in spite of also being competition. They helped each other in their breeding plans and used each other's stud dogs. 

My Mom and I saw a drastic change around 1972 when pro handlers started to become the norm. They need to win, it is their job. The more they win, the more clients they acquire. I could say plenty, but will not, because with anxiety issues, I should not handle my own dogs. With tremors, I should not show groom my own dogs. So I have to rely on the pros to show my dogs and ought not shoot myself in the foot. The costs are fantastic to maintain show hair and have your dog pro handled. I wish they would allow a good pet trim. If they did, I would attempt to show my dogs myself. Surely, the more I got in the ring the easier it would become. Or would it? The politics, backstabbing, sniping and temper tantrums that I have observed scare me half to death. I have watched pro handlers stand ringside and berate a junior in the ring, loud enough for the judge to hear, hoping it would stop the judge from putting her up. It didn't stop her from winning...it only made bystanders uncomfortable and wonder why the hell they were supporting this crap by having their own dog in the ring.

Everything in this article rings so true for me. I could tell you all some real horror stories, but again, not going to shoot myself in the foot. I'd love nothing more than to be able to groom and handle my own dogs, but as long as the climate stays like it currently is, that will not happen. BUT, I could be convinced to never show in CJKC or AKC again, where things are so politically motivated, and so astronomically expensive, and show in UKC instead, where it is friendlier and more inviting and dogs can be shown in pet trims, and also do some performance stuff with my dogs.


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## West U (Jul 30, 2014)

During the last year, I spent a lot of time out at shows with my lovely Beagle. I showed Arabian horses for over 20 years. I "try" to avoid the nastiness and unsolicited advice in both these businesses and sports. The first time my Beagle won the Hound Group, one of the other Group placers refused to congratulate or shake my handler's hand. I was standing ringside at another show and listened to a bunch of folks bad mouth the lady I got my poodle from. Now mind you, I didn't have my poodle with me and these people had no idea I had a poodle from the person they were bad mouthing. I couldn't control myself. I turned to leave and said, "excuse me, it sounds like your jealous, she has lovely dogs doesn't she". I have to work hard to not get caught up in the dark side of the sport of dog shows. But I shot my big mouth off and probably shouldn't have. I will be damned if I will let the negativity and rude behavior stop me from showing.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

*Click n treat* I am still in Novice A except for Rally, for which I am B, which I learned the hard way because of our Beginner Novice title. I have found the other competitors and judges (all but one) very supportive and encouraging. Raven and I have not competed that much and our scores are enough to qualify but are not high enough to place, so maybe it would be different if we were really any competition for the more experienced folks, but I have been pleasantly surprised at how friendly most people have been. I am a nervous wreck still in the ring and the judge has had to "nudge" me out of totally freezing up a time or two so we are very much still beginners in my mind.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

I guess I've just been very fortunate, or maybe it's just the area I live. The NY, PA, Ohio region is filled with a lot of big, big named handlers, and some very competitive poodle breeders. Names such as Whisperwind, Dassin, Unique, Boxwood, By Request, Litilann's, to name a few. Everyone is very competitive, but it is not uncommon to help each other out at the ring. Take someone's dog back in for them, take a dog in if the handler has a ring conflict, borrow equipment, hair spray, a dryer, and so on. Or even help evaluate litters. After the show we will meet at a restaurant for dinner,,,, or throw a picnic behind the motor homes. 

Tomorrow I am driving over to Linda Blackie's home where another breeder will be bringing a litter of white and silver puppies for everyone to evaluate. Last Tuesday I went to another breeders home to help evaluate his beautiful litter. 

The commonality is what I love most about the dogshow world!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Terry while I do think there are some snarky folks I agree with you that there are more nice and supportive people than otherwise. I still think that the amount of grooming required and the pressure of the conformation ring are things I am not interested in. I will stick to my companion sport events. Maybe we will be in the same place at the same time though. Do you go to the Back Mountain shows in November? If so and if Javelin is ready maybe I would go for novice obedience this year.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Hi lily cd re, the Back Mountain sows in Bloomsburg are one of my favorite clusters. I am hoping to go this fall,,,,, have not looked up the judges yet. If I go, it will be great meeting you.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

farleysd said:


> Hi lily cd re, the Back Mountain sows in Bloomsburg are one of my favorite clusters. I am hoping to go this fall,,,,, have not looked up the judges yet. If I go, it will be great meeting you.


We'll talk before then. I have to look up the judges too and see if I can get Javelin really ready for novice.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm surprised at the number of people I know who are showing bitches in conformation (none are poodles, more dogs that don't need much grooming) have no intention of breeding ever. These are people I have met because they are training and competing in other dog sports as well as conformation. Maybe they just like competition? I could never do that.

I have taken classes or attended seminars at several places, but I mostly go to two clubs - one is AKC and one is not. I did find a difference between the two. In the AKC club it took months before people were friendly - but now they are very friendly - the people in the CD and CDX level. But everyone acknowledges there is a disconnect with the people in the Futility level - while most are friendly and encouraging, there is a small unwelcoming clique. OTOH to put on competitions and events requires a lot of volunteers of all levels and interests and I think that helps bring people together.

The closest club to me is a non-AKC club - while they have classes to train for AKC, they are put on non-AKC competitions and have classes for those as well. This club is extremely welcoming and friendly at all levels. I'm not sure if it stems from the people in leadership or if it's related to not being AKC. I remember early on my first agility teacher suggested we go to a meet that our club was putting on for Agility - not to compete but just to watch. I can't tell you how many people from the club who were competing came by to explain what was happening. One of them spent at least an hour with us. And sometimes it takes special people - my WCRL rally teacher is one of those people. She's also a judge. She brought our club and a nearby club close together - both clubs put on 2 competitions a year and they work together helping each other out. When I compete at this other club - I feel like I'm in my home territory. She is now adding a third club about an hour and a half away and nurturing. I started to compete in WCRL rally instead of AKC because it was such a supportive and nurturing community. At some point I need to learn the AKC Rally which is very similar. I contrast this with the Teacup people - both clubs put on teacup agility competitions but there is no close connection. In Rally people attend classes at both clubs - in tea cup they stick to their own club.

If you want to know where the young people are - look in agility.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I keep finding myself bothered by the title of this thread. I know Vita pulled it from the blog post that started the discussion, but if you look at the posts here and elsewhere on PF it doesn't look like dog sports are dying at all. It is more a matter of there being many more choices now than ever and no one person being able to do all of them. If you want to show in conformation in the US you can go to AKC or UKC. If you want to do rally you can do AKC, UKC or WCRL. You can also do obedience in several different venues and the same is true for agility. I would hazard the guess that if all entries in all venues were added up we would see that dog sports are thriving despite declines in some sports or sanctioning organizations.


I do think the experience written about in the blog is the exception, not the norm.


And Skylar, some of my best dog sport friends are OTCh handlers. Even those I don't know so well are very nice and generous with their experience and knowledge for the most part so long as you don't try to initiate a game of 20 questions when they are warming their dog up to go in the ring, but then again I wouldn't talk to anybody at that moment either.


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## specie (Feb 27, 2014)

I also have a lovely apricot moyen who is 17"x17". Her mom is a mini, her dad is a mini/standard cross. Moyen size is becoming popular, and with good reason. I wouldn't hesitate to take her to a specialty (not for confirmation, but for OB/agility etc.)


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

specie I don't know why you would limit yourself to a poodle specialty if you are interested in a sport. If you are interested then it does not matter what size your dog is or even if it is a 100% poodle (or anything else), just what height it jumps if there are jumps.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I think she was talking to me about bringing Noelle the moyan to a poodle specialty show. Which we have entered, by the way. I sent in the forms. Novice A obedience, Novice A rally, here we come!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Yay, Click & Noelle!!!


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