# Rabies lump?



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

So I just noticed a really oddly shaped lump under the skin where Timi got her rabies shot a couple of weeks ago, I know that I have read about this before, but I don't recall - am I supposed to do anything about it? Is it dangerous?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

seems to me i recall someone with a small dog saying her dog developed a bald spot where the hair did not grow back. but i don't think recall any remedy - except that she made sure the next time a shot was given, it was not in a place where a bald spot would show.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> seems to me i recall someone with a small dog saying her dog developed a bald spot where the hair did not grow back. but i don't think recall any remedy - except that she made sure the next time a shot was given, it was not in a place where a bald spot would show.



Timi got hers on the hip, which would not be the worst thing since I shave it down anyhow. It is just the oddest shape lump ever - it is like one that channels into another, very irregular in shape - reminds me if a piece of chewed up gum. I guess that could be the way that the vaccine spread out into her?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

did your vet adjust the dosage for a smaller dog? i think n2mischief's toy developed an allergy of some kind, which is why she refuses to revaccinate. not saying that is what's going on with timi, but the rabies vaccine does seem to produce noticeable side effects in some dogs.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

That was Molly! It was a couple of weeks after her vac that the bald spot showed and there was a lump for awhile too......Her first rabies vac was at 16 weeks and then of course her 2nd one was at a year old and it also formed a bald spot.....because she has light skin the skin in the vac areas are now black and show as she in a conti. Next rabies vac will be in given on the inside of her thigh where it can't be seen!


Here's a pic after her last bath.........thank goodness this last one was a 3yr vac!


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Yes with Branna's very first one at 6 months old she got a lump a little bigger than a golf ball and a little smaller than a baseball on her hip. I took her back to the vet that did it and told him she had a reaction (all the techs and receptionists didn't want to believe me). After a bit of heated discussion he determined it was in fact was a rabies vaccine reaction, and told me it is extremely rare for cats and never seen in dogs to develop cancerous tumors from rabies vaccines but to keep a close eye on it and do warm compresses for 10-15 mins twice a day. If it didn't get better he wanted me to let him know so he could report it to the company that made the vaccines and do further testing. But thankfully it did go away, very slowly but it went away. Then at 1 year she had half a dose of the vaccine she reacted to it again but worse. I'm sure you have heard that story before.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Here are some pictures. 

This is the lump starting to form, it was very movable and would move in different spots depending on how her skin was stretched. 









This is the second vaccine reaction 
How it started 







As it got bigger 








Her ears with sores and flaking


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Here are some pictures.
> 
> This is the lump starting to form, it was very movable and would move in different spots depending on how her skin was stretched.
> View attachment 243978
> ...


OMG thats horrible. Aside from the effects at the injection sitte and her ears, did Branna develop any other symptoms; vomiting, pain, etc? Do you recall how much Branna weighed when she had the half dose? I'm going to be taking Phoenix next Friday for his rabbies and since I'm going to the vaccine clinic instead of his regular vet I'm wondering if i should talk to them first and request he only have a 1/2 dose, he weighs just 2lbs 10oz. I'm kind of freaked out now about taking him.


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## princesspenny (Feb 16, 2015)

yikes- my breeder told me to try to wait until penny is closer to 8-10m before getting the rabies to try to avoid these reactions, although im not sure that will make a difference if shes going to react. it worries me for sure.


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## PoodlenPrada (Aug 13, 2014)

princesspenny said:


> yikes- my breeder told me to try to wait until penny is closer to 8-10m before getting the rabies to try to avoid these reactions, although im not sure that will make a difference if shes going to react. it worries me for sure.


I wish we had that options here, but it's a law here that dogs have to have their rabies by 4 months otherwise you Can be fined and your dog impounded unless you have a medical Exemption signed by a vet.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

maybe folks should look at dr. dodds' vaccine protocols. i would be worried about a tiny dog getting a full dose of the rabies vaccine given what folks are testifying to here. even people don't get full doses of certain kinds of vaccines. many years ago i was given a child's dose hepatitis vaccination, for example, because of my weight at the time. i think one might be able to contact dr. dodds by email.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> did your vet adjust the dosage for a smaller dog? i think n2mischief's toy developed an allergy of some kind, which is why she refuses to revaccinate. not saying that is what's going on with timi, but the rabies vaccine does seem to produce noticeable side effects in some dogs.



She said that she would do a little less but was afraid to go half a dose because there have been a couple of cases of rabies around.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> did your vet adjust the dosage for a smaller dog? i think n2mischief's toy developed an allergy of some kind, which is why she refuses to revaccinate. not saying that is what's going on with timi, but the rabies vaccine does seem to produce noticeable side effects in some dogs.



Oh geez, that is awful. No baldness or black skin yet.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Here are some pictures.
> 
> This is the lump starting to form, it was very movable and would move in different spots depending on how her skin was stretched.
> View attachment 243978
> ...



Wow, just horrible. Now you have me terrified of the second vaccine -this at 13 months was her first.
Her's is not that big, maybe the size of two or three peas, but highly irregular in the shape. It feels like lumpy pea right at the surface sticking out, then a thin channel going in deeper, and then another lumpy pea. But it is mobile, not attached to anything.
Is there nothing to prevent this?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> maybe folks should look at dr. dodds' vaccine protocols. i would be worried about a tiny dog getting a full dose of the rabies vaccine given what folks are testifying to here. even people don't get full doses of certain kinds of vaccines. many years ago i was given a child's dose hepatitis vaccination, for example, because of my weight at the time. i think one might be able to contact dr. dodds by email.



I never saw Dr, Dodds say anything about rabies except to give as required by law, and maybe mention the challenge studies, have you?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

no, tp, i have not followed dr. dodds' work that closely. but wasn't it n2mischief who consulted her? mischief has only appeared briefly since returning from vacation, but it might be worth pm-ing her. we have many owners with spoos, but not that many with toys, so there isn't as much discussion of some of the things toys seem to encounter.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> no, tp, i have not followed dr. dodds' work that closely. but wasn't it n2mischief who consulted her? mischief has only appeared briefly since returning from vacation, but it might be worth pm-ing her. we have many owners with spoos, but not that many with toys, so there isn't as much discussion of some of the things toys seem to encounter.



As I remember it she was adamant about not giving the shot again to Mischa, and was distraught over the states refusal to allow an exemption.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

that's what i recall, too, but her dog also developed another condition, and that's where i thought the actual consultation came in.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

PoodlenPrada said:


> OMG thats horrible. Aside from the effects at the injection sitte and her ears, did Branna develop any other symptoms; vomiting, pain, etc? Do you recall how much Branna weighed when she had the half dose? I'm going to be taking Phoenix next Friday for his rabbies and since I'm going to the vaccine clinic instead of his regular vet I'm wondering if i should talk to them first and request he only have a 1/2 dose, he weighs just 2lbs 10oz. I'm kind of freaked out now about taking him.



Nope the second one was a delayed reaction and happened maybe 2-3 months after the vaccine was done. I originally treated her for ringworm thinking that was the issue but with no improvement did some research and recalled that her rabies vaccine had just been done. With the second vaccine she was full grown so id say around 4 lbs when she was given a half dose. I always request it no matter what now and if they refuse I go elsewhere. Branna got lesions on her face as well. She was horribly itchy and miserable for months, which is why no matter what the law says I will never give her another rabies vaccine again.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Wow, just horrible. Now you have me terrified of the second vaccine -this at 13 months was her first.
> Her's is not that big, maybe the size of two or three peas, but highly irregular in the shape. It feels like lumpy pea right at the surface sticking out, then a thin channel going in deeper, and then another lumpy pea. But it is mobile, not attached to anything.
> Is there nothing to prevent this?



Unfortunately I don't think there is. It's just a wait and see if they have a bad enough reaction to apply for an exemption type thing. With an immediate reaction you can give antihistamines and breathing treatments but with delayed reactions it is hard enough to diagnose much less treat. I mean look at all I'm going through with Killa and the vasculitis on her ears and eye socket.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

okay, i looked up dr. dodds' page and she does have some things to say (not about dosage) re rabies vaccinations - see the middle of this page and note she advises that the dog be 20 weeks or older if allowable by law (obviously she can't advise anyone to violate whatever the law is; rabies is serious):

Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and...


she does mention treating with oral homeopathics - no mention of how truly effective they are, but i assume there is some kind of experience out there to back this up. (i know, never assume)


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Unfortunately I don't think there is. It's just a wait and see if they have a bad enough reaction to apply for an exemption type thing. With an immediate reaction you can give antihistamines and breathing treatments but with delayed reactions it is hard enough to diagnose much less treat. I mean look at all I'm going through with Killa and the vasculitis on her ears and eye socket.



Ugh, I was reading the exemption law in NY, and it says that the dog would not be allowed to leave the owners property. 
I wonder if there are any studies which show if the initial lump is correlated with the more severe reaction the second time?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> okay, i looked up dr. dodds' page and she does have some things to say (not about dosage) re rabies vaccinations - see the middle of this page and note she advises that the dog be 20 weeks or older if allowable by law (obviously she can't advise anyone to violate whatever the law is; rabies is serious):
> 
> Dr. Jean Dodds' Pet Health Resource Blog | Frequently Asked Questions about Titers and...
> 
> ...



I waited until Timi was over a year...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> that's what i recall, too, but her dog also developed another condition, and that's where i thought the actual consultation came in.



I think that was related to her liver, not rabies related.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i thought it manifested after the shots.... maybe not...


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## Misfits (Dec 27, 2014)

I had a small cream toy that reacted negatively to the rabies vaccine twice. Its been many years ago so I can't remember exactly how old she was when she had the first one, but I'm sure we were following along with normal vaccine protocols so she was probably 4-5 months old. Within an hour or two after we got home from the vet, she started vomiting, shaking, and was very lethargic. Took her right back, and they treated her with a shot of benedryl and some sub q fluids. She was lethargic for a day or two but bounced back quickly. The next shot a year later, we pretreated her with benedryl prior to the vaccine and she did not become ill with the shot, however she did develop a good sized lump at the injection site several days later. It wasn't like the one you describe TinyPoodles. I'm thinking it was about the size of a half dollar and raised maybe a quarter to a half inch. It wasn't hard, but not squishy either. More like a swelling, except that it didn't feel hot. And it was in the shoulder/neck area. Over several more days, the hair fell out and the pigment of the skin eventually changed and turned dark gray or black. Quite ugly. Eventually sparse hair did grow back in over the area but it grew in a different color. A reddish brown! My vet at the time said that it's pretty common with a skin injury like that for the hair to grow back a different color. I couldn't get an exemption even after all that, but I never did give her the rabies again.

Diana


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Dang, it feels a little bigger, or maybe just rounder today. Whatever happened to "first do no harm". This just sucks!


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