# Why are tall white standards so hard to find?



## onyxpoodle (May 25, 2009)

We have been looking for a tall [26"+] white standard. It seems that there are lots of creams but almost no pure whites. Why? 

Also, almost all the so-called white standards have tan on the ears and hocks.

We live in the northeast [Central New York] and have not been able to locate a well bred white white standard. Our family loves Gunther's pictures, but Melissa Priddy does not have any whites. Everyone on this forum should take a look at how great Gunther looks.

Can anyone explain the dearth of large whites?
Thanks


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

I don't know why tall white spoos are hard to find. I also see quite a few creams, and very few ice whites. BTW, according to Spoofan, Gunther started out cream, and just keeps lightening more and more all the time, to the point where now he is pretty white. Our cream male was 10 mo. old when we got him and he is right at 2 yrs. now and has gotten a lot lighter then he was, but not as light as Gunther seems to have become.


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

onyxpoodle said:


> We have been looking for a tall [26"+] white standard. It seems that there are lots of creams but almost no pure whites. Why?
> 
> Also, almost all the so-called white standards have tan on the ears and hocks.
> 
> ...


First of all,thank you for the compliment.
As Fuzbutz mentioned,Gunther started out as cream and keeps getting lighter.
I don't expect him to be done clearing for at least another year.
There are not that many spoo boys taller than 26 inches...Gunther is just short of 27 in.
I think it results in an overall healthier spoo if they don't deviate too much above the average.
Best of luck in your search.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

You know, I've been wondering the same thing. I've been visiting some breeder sites lately. All of their adult dogs are black or white (and gorgeous to boot), but all the puppy pics are black and cream. So do white dogs clear as they get older?


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

White is funny as no dog that is "white" is really "white" they are genticly yellow and it just depends on how it is expressed or in the case of white not expressed.

Most of these ice white dogs you see do start off as an off white or cleam color and in the case of show dogs washed with a brightner to make them look more white. 

Take Samoyeds they can have biscut markings on their ears and body as can Eskies and White Shepherds.

Also I agree that any taller then 25 inches is pushing it for a standard, they are not ment to be that tall.


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Years ago we raised white shepherds and ours were ice white from day #1. We originally bought a white female and later down the road decided we wanted to have her bred for a littler of pups. Well low and behold when we started looking for a outside stud to breed her to, every time we went to see the male standing at stud, it ended up NOT being white, even though people were calling their studs white. We only wanted to breed to a pure white and had so much trouble finding one to breed our female to that we ended up buying our own WHITE male pup, and raising it up to use use for breeding and of course for a family member also. There was no cream, clearing to white or etc. going on, just WHITE. The first time that someone told me that poodles that are often cream MAY turn white, I didn't believe it, but have since seen it happen. I think poodles go through a lot more color changes, whether it be lightening or darkening then any other breed that I have ever seen. Reminds me of how a lot of horses go through different color changes.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Now that I think of it, many Maltese have tan or "lemon" ears as pups, but usually grow out of it. I agree though, the way poodles change colors is amazing!


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

onyxpoodle said:


> We have been looking for a tall [26"+] white standard. It seems that there are lots of creams but almost no pure whites. Why?
> 
> Also, almost all the so-called white standards have tan on the ears and hocks.
> 
> ...


You need to go and visit shows at local kennel club events, local akc events... that is where you'll find the breeders. There are two white breeders located in PA, one is Whisperwind and the other is Unique. I'm not sure how tall their poodles are exactly but I've seen more than one of both of their poodles and they are too die for! I would highly recommend both of them, and I know both of them have done extremely well in showing their dogs. 

http://www.whisperwindstandardpoodles.com/

http://uniquestandardpoodles.com/


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Standard poodle is in average 15 to 21 inches high (at shoulder). I would never go much above normal size since, as far as I know, the taller the dog - the deeper the chest and higher incidence of bloat : (. 

Puppies are always "creamy" and get whiter with age. Show dogs are extensively groomed with special products to stay "white-white" and many breeders use special products to keep blacks -black , although it is kind of "forbidden" in the ring. 

White lines are almost always bred for showing and I think that is why they adhere more to , well, standard ; ) 

It is sometimes worth waiting for that special puppy. Avion poodles are fantastic , also Grandeur and Pendragon. I know better CA breeders and from Texas I know Antigua. 

Never buy a pup just for looks or good price - health and temperament are priority , in my opinion, and warranty that is given by a breeder. 

Best of luck in your search : ))) !


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

FUZBUTZ said:


> I think poodles go through a lot more color changes, whether it be lightening or darkening then any other breed that I have ever seen.


The only other breed that changes more are the Havanese.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Hi,

Pinafore Poodles produce lovely whites.

I think they average around 25" but could be wrong.

My spoo's grandfather is a Pinafore Poodle and he is amazing, NZ GR CH PINAFORE PACIFIKA AT KATEISHA (IMP USA) , http://www.kateisha.com/ , he is out of a Unique Poodle as well

http://pinaforepoodles.com/


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## cybercat (Nov 15, 2008)

PonkiPoodles said:


> You need to go and visit shows at local kennel club events, local akc events... that is where you'll find the breeders. There are two white breeders located in PA, one is Whisperwind and the other is Unique. I'm not sure how tall their poodles are exactly but I've seen more than one of both of their poodles and they are too die for! I would highly recommend both of them, and I know both of them have done extremely well in showing their dogs.
> 
> http://www.whisperwindstandardpoodles.com/
> 
> http://uniquestandardpoodles.com/


When I was grooming in MD I had a client that had 2 SPoos that were white. They were brother and sister and yes they were fixed. If I remember right she got them in PA if not there it was close to it. We were in Timoniom MD right on the border of PA off off 83. These were large size poodles not 22 and under but more 23f to 26m German Shepherd heights. Very nice coats and well trained to table. When I did them they were 3 and 4 years old.


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## akbritt (Aug 10, 2009)

wow...i didnt know that creams could lighten up over time. Misa is my first spoo and the only truly cream on her is her ears and muzzle and alittle bit on her legs. Besides that she looks white all over her body. She is just a little puppy right now...so I guess only time will tell with her.


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## akbritt (Aug 10, 2009)

ok look alittle more closely she has cream on top of her back but its light...so who know she may stay more on the cream side


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Poodle Lover said:


> The only other breed that changes more are the Havanese.


You're right. Before I settled on the poodle, the havanese was on my list. I couldn't believe how much the pups change in colour as they mature. Brown puppies often end up cream coloured, it's crazy.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> Standard poodle is in average 15 to 21 inches high (at shoulder). I would never go much above normal size since, as far as I know, the taller the dog - the deeper the chest and higher incidence of bloat : (.


I have never personally seen a Standard Poodle from Standard breeding that was smaller than 19". The Poodles that I have seen in the 16-18" range have all been either over-sized Minis or the products of Mini to Standard breeding.

I would not think it would be hard to find a 26" White male. Bigger than this, probably not because it is larger than what most breeders are breeding. White actually is a color different from Cream. The puppies are born ice-white with no hint of cream to their coats. They also usually have the very best black pigment.

Breeders breeding what I believe are true whites back east?

Alki
Brighton
Unique
Lakecove
(I'll try to put together a more comprehensive list later)

The thing to watch out for in Whites (IMHO) is epilepsy. It seems to run higher than average in some of these lines.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I have to disagree : (. Most females in the show ring are on average 21 inch and boys 24 max since 26 is really pushing the limits toward so-called "royals" which are not desirable neither in the ring, nor as pets. 

Every reputable breeder makes sure to breed with dogs size "up" or "down" to stay in normal range , sometimes using dogs less than 20 inch to make next line appropriately sized and balanced.

EVERY line has its health problems - if you meet the breeder that says that his/her poodles NEVER had any problems in any of the litters - you better start looking for another breeder because he/she is either lying or is delusional.

That is why genetic testing, OFA, CERF, Skin sebaceous adenitis etc. are so extremely important as well as knowing one's lines for generations (keeping record of all produced pups for many years and not breeding any dog before they are at east 2 years old ). 

I never saw "ice-white" puppies - maybe there is confusion of what is "white" actually - there are so many shades of white ; ) !


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> I have to disagree : (. Most females in the show ring are on average 21 inch and boys 24 max since 26 is really pushing the limits toward so-called "royals" which are not desirable neither in the ring, nor as pets.
> 
> Every reputable breeder makes sure to breed with dogs size "up" or "down" to stay in normal range , sometimes using dogs less than 20 inch to make next line appropriately sized and balanced.


Huh? I actually do show my poodles in AKC and I am a member of the Columbine State Poodle Club. There is no way that 21" is the average even for a bitch. My Izze is 21" and she is on the petite side (fine with me since I like a small standard). I would say that most of the bitches I see in our area are around 21"-23" with some 24"ers and only one person I can think of who is showing a bitch around 20". Our area, Colorado, tends to be smaller than some parts of the country where it is common to find bitches in the 23"-24" range. 

Also, 24" is certainly not the max size for Standard boys. I think you are confusing the American Standard with the FCI Standard that limits the height to 60cm (with a two 2cm allowance) which is equal to about 24.5". 

http://www.poodles-in-scandinavia.com/standard.htm

Most of the Standard Poodle dogs I see showing are 24"-26". I know some stud dogs who are smaller, but I don't know anyone who ever actively showed a dog under 22"". That would be very small for a Standard Poodle dog. 

I know you are in California and I'm familiar with most of the well known breeders out there. I can't think of anyone who is routinely using Standards under 20". (Kim Bates has one bitch who is quite small, but I would be surprised to find that she was under 20").


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Oh ...that could be the case than - I am "guilty as accused" :redface:. I am originally from Europe and am accustomed to "smaller" standards. I also find them more appealing and I know quiet a few here that are about 21 inch (females) that are CH. Just gorgeous "girly" bitches, to die for. It could very much be the case that I always can not take my eyes off the smaller standards since I find them more attractive and than approach those owners/ handlers to ask questions and got impression than that that is kind of more the standard and not the exception ...hmm..

I am also afraid of a bloat as hell : (((. Larger dogs have higher tendency to succumb to that condition and die the most horrifying way. At least, I was told that.

All the best : ))) !


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## onyxpoodle (May 25, 2009)

*thank you --everyone*

the suggestions made on the Forum have been wonderful. i have leads on a few great looking dogs--now we will have to see how their personalities are.

we genuinely appreciate everyone's comments. 
aaron
syracuse ny


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Huh? I actually do show my poodles in AKC and I am a member of the Columbine State Poodle Club. There is no way that 21" is the average even for a bitch. My Izze is 21" and she is on the petite side (fine with me since I like a small standard). I would say that most of the bitches I see in our area are around 21"-23" with some 24"ers and only one person I can think of who is showing a bitch around 20". Our area, Colorado, tends to be smaller than some parts of the country where it is common to find bitches in the 23"-24" range.
> 
> Also, 24" is certainly not the max size for Standard boys. I think you are confusing the American Standard with the FCI Standard that limits the height to 60cm (with a two 2cm allowance) which is equal to about 24.5".
> 
> ...



Cbrand this is so true when we take Enzo to shows he is about the size of the bitches lol I think Enzo is about 24 inches I have not measured him in a while but I know he should be 24 inches still. The thing I am baffled about is we had some breeder tell us Enzo was small.... but every time I watch the dogs in the ring there are a few dogs that are Enzo's size. I see a range of sizes usually. I have even see a 6 month old puppy that was the same age as Enzo at the time ( in his class) that was probably barely 16 inches ? Enzo look like a giant compared to this dog the whole time I though he was a female,he was so small he look like a miniature. I am not even sure if that breeder shows that dog any more I have not seen him in a awhile at the local shows.


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

spoofan said:


> First of all,thank you for the compliment.
> As Fuzbutz mentioned,Gunther started out as cream and keeps getting lighter.
> I don't expect him to be done clearing for at least another year.
> There are not that many spoo boys taller than 26 inches...Gunther is just short of 27 in.
> ...


Just to show you the difference in colour over the last 16 months.


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Spoofan, I'm not sure whether its my computer acting up or if your attached thumbnails just didn't come up.


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

FUZBUTZ said:


> Spoofan, I'm not sure whether its my computer acting up or if your attached thumbnails just didn't come up.


You are right,I took a look around the forum and everyone's thumbnails are missing.
Maybe Todd can help?


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## FUZBUTZ (Aug 23, 2008)

Okay, now the thumbnails are showing.


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

:effek: that is a huge change in colour


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