# Yeah, good luck with that



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

One of the lists I follow intermittently is the Control Unleashed group, and someone posted recently about an argument she was having with someone on another forum, about methods. The crux of the argument was that the person on the other forum thought that the dog should learn to work solely for praise and out of respect for the handler.

The poster got lots of replies back, offering lots of suggestions for links to research about reward-based training, lots of lengthy replies explaining the use of food as a reward in training, detailed instructions about how to ensure the food is a reward and not a bribe, etc., etc.

But the best answer I saw was a suggestion to offer a simple, pithy "yeah, well, good luck with that." :smile:

I'm making a mental note, for the next time I'm out walking and run into someone who isn't a believer in reward-based training!


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

I was dumb enough to believe that silly stuff once. 

Now, I have treat pouchs and bowls ALL over the house (and one in the truck). lol

I mean, really, who doesn't want treats or rewards for the work they do? I have even learned that treats and rewards work nicely on coworkers.  Yes, you CAN marker train a nurse! lol (Don't tell them, I've only admitted it to one of them - he thought it funny and went home to practice on his dog and human family) 

The treats and rewards may not be absolutely neccesary, but if you want fast results and an enthusiastic response - treats it is.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The only person I ever knew who actually got a brilliant response from dogs while saying that all the dogs who knew her worked only for praise, always rewarded them with wonderful, OTT fun-and-games-and-love-fest every time they saw her! There is good-dog-Fido praise, and there is hallelujah-you-are-brilliant-let's-roll-on-the-floor-and-wrestle praise/reward. But while the latter may work, it is damn difficult to do it after every Sit/Down/Wait/Come cue!

As for the "out of respect" bit ... "yeah, well, good luck with that." indeed!


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## sulamk (Nov 5, 2011)

My GSD will not work for treats she is not food driven at all Doesnt like raw food and bones! but she will work for a toy or a ott love and fuss!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I remember the first training class I went to as an adult - all leash corrections, push and shove, and praise limited to a muttered "Good dog". (We didn't stay long!) Then I went to a rather more up to date class, where one of the instructors demonstrated how to get your pup to come by running, shrieking and waving and laughing from one end of the hall to the other - and a group of thoroughly polite and repressed Brits attempted to emulate her approach! There must be scope for several PhDs in exploring the correlation between social norms and dog training methods ...!

Both of mine like food, especially the kind I use for treats. Poppy is also happy to work for silly games - bouncing round in a circle trying to grab my hand while I chant "Poppy is a clever dog!". Sophy will work for games that she creates - usually involving me playing creepy creepy and tickling her tummy, or for the life rewards of being sent off to do her own thing. Neither have much interest in toys - they prefer the real thing, like rabbits, and squirrels, and - unfortunately - chickens. I think little by little you discover what works for each dog, and build upon it - the silly thing is to decide that it is somehow morally reprehensible for the dog to require something more than praise, or an approving glance from the owner. I wonder if it has something to do with working dogs, where the behaviour - herding, retrieving, etc - is actually self rewarding, so that people think all dogs should automatically perform as asked with no additional reward?


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

fjm said:


> I remember the first training class I went to as an adult - all leash corrections, push and shove, and praise limited to a muttered "Good dog". (We didn't stay long!) Then I went to a rather more up to date class, where one of the instructors demonstrated how to get your pup to come by running, shrieking and waving and laughing from one end of the hall to the other - and a group of thoroughly polite and repressed Brits attempted to emulate her approach! There must be scope for several PhDs in exploring the correlation between social norms and dog training methods ...!


fjm that is hilarious!!! Both of my dogs are so food driven, it's not even funny. They'll perform faster for me if I even put my hand NEAR the treat pocket. But Indy also is obsessed with fetching, so squeaking a kong ball and letting her mouth it briefly is a high-value treat for her too. If they are like my sweet pit bull who died of old age a few years ago, they will probably slow down on being as focused on food as they get older. But training them initially with treats brings such a good solid response, as they get older, they always remember that good early training. In my limited experience!


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

I agree with treat based training but just as all people are not the same neither are all dogs. I think whatever works for you dog is best for your dog and a good trainer knows that. 
My girl Pumpkin will not take treats if she is slightly nervous so she works great with verbal praise from me. Dante never met a treat he didn't love.....hmmm wonder if thats a male/female thing.....


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## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Dogs do behaviors that are rewarding for them. Period. Doesn't matter if you have their respect or not. I find it arrogant to think that each dog comes into this world with one goal only; to please a human! Ha! *If* any dog is just pleased as punch to hear a "Good boy!" and happily sits through training sessions just for that, then lucky for the owner who gets to save a lot of money on treats! : P If the dog is like most, and is more motivated by something yummy, then to force them to go through a more difficult and less fun method of training just to prove that they "respect" you just doesn't make any sense to me. But, hey, good luck with that. ; )


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

PammiPoodle said:


> Dogs do behaviors that are rewarding for them. Period.


If I ever (unlikely) get a tattoo, I'm having that phrase :smile:.


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