# Mats from Coat Change



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I've been growing Leroy's hair for a grooming competition. I thought he was done with coat change but I was wrong! It takes me 2 hours or more to bathe, brush, and demat. I know that continually dematting the hair damages it more and it's been suggested to completely shave him.

I've been stressed with his hair but I'm not going to give up by shaving him. I intend to do that AFTER the competition. I just need to hang in there for another 4 months...

I wanted to share some pictures of what his matting looks like. He still has very fine hair on his legs and chest. The fine hair mats up so badly that some spots look bald till it's brushed out. The last pic shows how sparse the inside of his leg is. He gets like this even on a weekly bath schedule!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yep, that looks about right. Coat change is dreadful.


----------



## wolfcub81 (Feb 5, 2010)

At what point does he start to mat up? If it is day 4, bathe him on day 3. What methods are you using (hand wash, recirc, what shampoo, towel dry, hv, stand dry). Make a list of exactly what you are doing, in what order, with what products. Even if we can't help with the matting, perhaps we can help with technique so that bathing more than once a week is feasible for you and doesn't take as much time. Also, how often are you brushing, what brush, product, method, etc.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

wolfcub81 said:


> At what point does he start to mat up? If it is day 4, bathe him on day 3. What methods are you using (hand wash, recirc, what shampoo, towel dry, hv, stand dry). Make a list of exactly what you are doing, in what order, with what products. Even if we can't help with the matting, perhaps we can help with technique so that bathing more than once a week is feasible for you and doesn't take as much time. Also, how often are you brushing, what brush, product, method, etc.


I've had a big discussion regarding Leroy's hair on facebook. Besides shaving him, it was recommended to bathe him every 3 days, and what particular products and tools to use.

He basically mats everywhere except the sides of his body because I trimmed it short couple of months ago. He is washed in the bathtub with a regular shower head and I force dry him, and use the lower setting to brush out the mats. I use the LP matzapper and Crown Royale spray. I've been told not to use the matzapper because it is damaging to the hair, and use a pin brush instead (I just don't see this brush getting through those mats), and use a lighter leave-in spray as the CR is too "gummy." I don't like brushing dirty hair so I will need to up the # of baths so I can brush clean hair.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A pin brush won't get through mats well. I'd be using a pin brush, then a slicker gently, then following with a comb under the stand dryer with low heat. This is how I managed my boy's show coat.

I would not use any Les Pooch slicker. I have found them to pull way too much coat. The best IMO are All Systems and the CC round slicker. Both are gentle enough if used correctly (no wrist flicking) that I used them *carefully* even on show coat neck hair.


----------



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

I am growing the apricot coat from H*ll, finally progress using IOD royal jelly shampoo and IOD heavy management shampoo with 1/4 cup of pure paws coat oil. Bathing every 4 days and finally no mats! Takes much less time to bathe than it did with de-matting. Good luck I feel your pain! :argh:


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> A pin brush won't get through mats well. I'd be using a pin brush, then a slicker gently, then following with a comb under the stand dryer with low heat. This is how I managed my boy's show coat.
> 
> I would not use any Les Pooch slicker. I have found them to pull way too much coat. The best IMO are All Systems and the CC round slicker. Both are gentle enough if used correctly (no wrist flicking) that I used them *carefully* even on show coat neck hair.


I have the all systems poodle comb. I have wondered if it's the same as the cc butter poodle comb...the specs are the same on it as the cc one. Anyone have both combs?


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Holy crap |: coat change was nothing like that with Vegas.. who I hardly remember going through one. I feel for you.


----------



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

I think the 2 combs are the same. Something I have found very useful is the CC mini comb for breaking mats up. The big ling combs I love for line combing but the mini one is great for working on one small area at a time.


----------



## Agidog (Jun 4, 2012)

*matting*

have you tried using one of those anti static zip back coats which have front legs (you can get with back legs as well) this seems to help me as her coat just stays the way I have brushed when I take coat off quick zip through after misting with a water and oil based spray product and hey presto no mats etc


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Agidog said:


> have you tried using one of those anti static zip back coats which have front legs (you can get with back legs as well) this seems to help me as her coat just stays the way I have brushed when I take coat off quick zip through after misting with a water and oil based spray product and hey presto no mats etc


Never heard of this..do you have a link or brand name of one? Is it not hot to wear all the time? Thanks


----------



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Thanks for this very interesting thread!

A couple things I'm wondering. Can anyone make a video or show how to properly use a comb on a poodle?

How does one choose a good comb? 

I have a toy poodle and am not sure what I should look for ie, how wide/thick each tooth should be and how many per square inch?

When do you know that you need to go over with a comb? I've been using just a slicker so far and all seems well, but it sounds like most people feel slickers don't seem to get mats?

Rebecca


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I wouldn't ever take a comb to a poodle or any dog without brushing it first to separate all the hair. When you've brushed the dog and it appears fluffy, then you take the comb through it to make sure there's no more mats in it.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I wouldn't ever take a comb to a poodle or any dog without brushing it first to separate all the hair. When you've brushed the dog and it appears fluffy, then you take the comb through it to make sure there's no more mats in it.


hmmm... I do opposite. I feel that a brush will rip through tangles and break hair versus a comb I can tease them out slowly/carefully. I don't think I've used a brush since Jet's hair grew over 4". I'm not going for a show ring coat, but something close enough to it to attract attention (and new grooming clients). I'm the only "fancy" groomer within 60 miles and I intend to flaunt it. :lol: I want to keep as much coat as possible, but I'm not wrapping or banding to protect it.

I don't get how a brush is gentler than a comb? Please explain to me.


----------



## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

tortoise said:


> hmmm... I do opposite. I feel that a brush will rip through tangles and break hair versus a comb I can tease them out slowly/carefully. I don't think I've used a brush since Jet's hair grew over 4". I'm not going for a show ring coat, but something close enough to it to attract attention (and new grooming clients). I'm the only "fancy" groomer within 60 miles and I intend to flaunt it. :lol: I want to keep as much coat as possible, but I'm not wrapping or banding to protect it.
> 
> I don't get how a brush is gentler than a comb? Please explain to me.


Yeah, I dont understand the purpose of a brush. I live in Florida where the hard water makes it difficult to get a comb through my own hair after a shower. Ive always used a detangling comb (plus spray) on my wet hair, and use the same "start with the ends and work up" technique you use on a long haired dog. Ive never had any luck with a brush on my own hair, so dont understand what the purpose of a brush is for a dog's coat.

Ok, let me have it. LOL.

I should make my standard disclaimer that I have never groomed a dog. Im just learning in prep for getting my spoo.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

All I used on Quincy through coat change was a Universal slicker and Coat Handler conditioner (and when you rinse it out, leave more in than you rinse out). In between baths, I would mist with Crown Royal 3. We got through it and his neck hair was about 10 inches long. Are you diluting the CR enough...I never found it gummy. I never used a pin brush on him and did not damage coat. It is all how you use it.


----------



## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

AHA! So I might be able to get along just fine without worrying too much about combing. Nice to know it CAN be done, even though most don't do it that way...

I don't see how a comb can get out tangles though, or those dreaded "pin mats" when the ones like the poodle butter comb have such large holes or spaces in between the teeth? How on earth does it work?

Rebecca


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> AHA! So I might be able to get along just fine without worrying too much about combing. Nice to know it CAN be done, even though most don't do it that way...
> 
> I don't see how a comb can get out tangles though, or those dreaded "pin mats" when the ones like the poodle butter comb have such large holes or spaces in between the teeth? How on earth does it work?
> 
> Rebecca


You need a fine/coarse comb. With the coarse side of the comb, use the end - the last 3 teeth, to tease out the mat. I work from the right bottom corner sorta diagonally across as the mat combs out. When the mat is untangled, you'll see fuzz and teardrop shaped tiny mats. (The point of the teardrop is towards the dog's skin). Flip the comb around to the fine side and comb the loose hair (fuzz) and the teardrop mats out. 

DIVIDE AND CONQUER!

Dont try to drag a comb through matted areas. Use the last couple teeth to pick and tease apart the mat. 

If you're not growing a show coat, you break mats with a letter opener. (like this one: http://www.chinatraderonline.com/Fi...s/Letter-opener/Letter-opener-22534472120.jpg) Cut through the mat with the direction of the hair growth to slice the mat into 2 or 3 chunks. It will comb out easily then. The plastic guard on the letter opener makes it much safer to use than scissors. You will lose coat with this method. With severe matting you can lose 60% of the hair. With minor matting (just a little too hard to comb out), it won't be obvious.

Here's a worst case example of using this technique. This dog's tail is encased in matting, like a hard cast.


Matted Dog Tail by tortoise11, on Flickr

This is with mats first sliced open and then combed out. You can see how much hair was lost, but I didn't have to shave the dog's tail!


Salvaged Tail by tortoise11, on Flickr


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> All I used on Quincy through coat change was a Universal slicker and Coat Handler conditioner (and when you rinse it out, leave more in than you rinse out). In between baths, I would mist with Crown Royal 3. We got through it and his neck hair was about 10 inches long. Are you diluting the CR enough...I never found it gummy. I never used a pin brush on him and did not damage coat. It is all how you use it.


I really like CR. I use the ready-to-use spray. I'm not sure why people told me not to use it or that it was gummy. I do not find this to be the case. I like the feel of it on the hair, and I can even feel it on the floor. The next day when I step on the linoleum floor it feels very slippery but not sticky. Maybe people think it's "gummy" because obviously it does leave a slippery residue (not noticeable in the hair), which maybe over time mats the hair more.

I've just been using CC Spectrum 1 shampoo and conditioner. Today I decided to change it up and rinsed with diluted Spectrum 1 shampoo, lathered with full concentrate White on White, then used full concentrate Day to Day Moisturizing Conditioner. I regret not trying the Day to Day Conditioner sooner! It REALLY helped with the mats. I barely had to tug on the hair with a slicker brush and it easily came out. Of course, I cannot use the conditioner if I decide to scissor the hair; the conditioner makes his hair very floppy, but oh-so-soft and very manageable. I think I shaved off about 20 minutes of my 2+ hour bathing marathon. It doesn't sound like much but I did not feel cranky or tired after bathing and drying - which is saying a lot!

I used the CC Ice on Ice spray this time but the mats were brushed out easily regardless of using detangling spray. Leroy looks very bright and poofy. I was feeling disappointed with the way his topknot looks, but NORMAL people just see a clean, fluffy dog. My husband kept saying how soft he was, and all I was thinking was "uggggh, can't scissor his hair!!"


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

tortoise said:


> hmmm... I do opposite. I feel that a brush will rip through tangles and break hair versus a comb I can tease them out slowly/carefully. I don't think I've used a brush since Jet's hair grew over 4". I'm not going for a show ring coat, but something close enough to it to attract attention (and new grooming clients). I'm the only "fancy" groomer within 60 miles and I intend to flaunt it. :lol: I want to keep as much coat as possible, but I'm not wrapping or banding to protect it.
> 
> I don't get how a brush is gentler than a comb? Please explain to me.



A pin brush is gentler than a comb for the same reason a pin brush will not keep your dog with long coat mat free.  

What Fluffyspoos does is the correct method for maintaining show coat or if your goal is to do the least damage to the coat. A comb taken to the coat without first using a pin brush is well known to those caring for show coat to be a big no-no.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

CharismaticMillie said:


> A pin brush is gentler than a comb for the same reason a pin brush will not keep your dog with long coat mat free.
> 
> What Fluffyspoos does is the correct method for maintaining show coat or if your goal is to do the least damage to the coat. A comb taken to the coat without first using a pin brush is well known to those caring for show coat to be a big no-no.


Not only is it a big no no, but in the pet grooming world its also _cruel_. Combing through mats is much more painful than gently going over them and separating them with a soft slicker like Doggyman or a pin brush.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

tortoise said:


> I don't get how a brush is gentler than a comb? Please explain to me.


A brush with soft bristles that give is much more humane and gentle than a comb with solid teeth. Just like a click+treat, neither should be used without the other.


----------



## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

hmmm... I don't own a brush with soft bristles and pick the stiffest combs I can get. I want the energy to transfer to the dog's hair, not be absorbed by the brush or comb. Physics. Saves my effort. When a lighter tough is needed, I use a lighter touch.

So why is it that people tell me their dog cannot tolerate combing out mats because of discomfort, but when I do it the dog is comfortable? This happened again today with a shih tzu mix dog that mats up like a poodle. The owner says she can't comb the dog, but while we were chatting about her hairstyle I was able to comb out the mats. You bet that owner would throw a fit if her "baby" was unhappy!

Using a brush will drag and pull on every mat. Using a comb I can pick out a mat hair by hair without all that nasty pulling.

Somebody needs to come to WI to give me a hands on lesson.  Maybe we're talking about different types of mats or I'm not getting what brushing technique you're using, but brushing out mats seems horribly painful and ineffective.

Again, not a show coat here. He's just up to 5" and starting coat change.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

*Tortoise*, I understand the way you are using the comb. I can use your method for the pin mats, like you mentioned. Leroy will have spots where the root of the hair isn't tangled, just the ends are, and it's not a solid mat, just looks tangled. So I can see how a comb can be used to pick away the hair. There are different types of mats and once Leroy has the tangle all the way to the skin and the ends are starting to ball up, then I cannot use a comb. If this type of mat is left longer and untouched, then he could mat like a pelt. Using the Day to Day conditioner helped a lot. I dry and brush at the same time, and use a slicker brush to lightly "pat" the hair straight, then with the dryer off, I use the CC buttercomb to comb through the hair to see if I got all the mats out. I use the comb to fluff the hair up for scissoring. I don't think I ever just comb a dog, i mainly use it as a checker to check snags.


----------

