# Base Narrow Lower Canines



## ziggylu

Hi

New here. New to Standard Poodles. We are considering adding one to our family. 

We have found a litter with available puppies we are considering. We do have puppy raising experience, though the breed is new to us.

Anyway....we're wondering how concerned we should be about base narrow lower canines in 9 week old puppy? Everything else checks out OK. We've seen health testing for sire and dam and past generations for hips, eyes, skin, thyroid, von willebrands. We've met the dam and she's well-tempered. All dogs were in teh house and well-mannered, well-tempered. Environment very clean. 13 of 14 in 3 gen pedigree are titled. Breeder only whelps litters every couple years. In other words, everything else seems good and on the up and up. Breeder has answered any and all questions and been up front. She pointed out the tooth issue to us.

Should this tooth issue be a concern? She is asking what would be considered full price for him on a limited registration and neuter contract. I'm finding conflicting information as to how big a deal this tooth issue might be? Could this be a painful and/or expensive issue in the future(we have the resources but wondre about paying the same or more to fix the bite as it might cost to buy the puppy for instance)? She presented it as not a big deal and we can massage the tooth outwards as the adult teeth come in. My concern is if this doesnt work and more expensive fixes might be needed? 

This is all new to us as we've had rescue dogs before. I guess my main question is two fold: Can we expect it to cause the puppy pain and behavior issues until fixed? (he was very sweet and seemed to have no temperment issues but didn't seem much into toys...could that be due to mouth pain perhaps?). Should this make the price negotiable or is this considered a non-issue as he is otherwise seemingly a well-bred puppy?


----------



## rubymom

This has been an issue I have been gathering LOTS of info on since learning that my Ruby has this problem! My vet discovered this on her 1st puppy visit 24 hours after I brought her home. (Ruby was 11 weeks old). He advised me to have the tooth extracted in order to allow the permanent tooth to come into a normal position as it grows in. Ruby had the tooth rmoved a week ago and is doing fine. We will be keeping close watch because if it appears that the permanent tooth is NOT growing into a normal bite position, then Ruby will have to see an orthodonist for further treatment. (there are several treatment options at that point) 
I bought lots of toys/balls for her to chew on (they are suppose to help "spread" the bite pressure normally and better facilitate normal canine position.) 
And like you, I've been surfing the web learning what I can on this condition! Hopefully this early treatment plan will correct things so we won't have to take more detailed measures!


----------



## markfsanderson

*Canine Tooth Issue . . .*

Have her modify the contract she'll sign with you (I'm assuming that she does have a contract) so that she is responsible for paying for surgery if a vet or vets(3?) state that it's a problem that should be resolved. This would, in effect, reduce the purchase price of the puppy by the cost of the surgery. Or perhaps ask for half if your more comfortable with that . . . 
Have you spoken to a vet about it? What is the 'ball-park' cost of corrective surgery if needed? What are the risks? These are question to ask a good vet . . .I can't tell where you live, (welcome to the forum!) it's good to fill out your profile information so we can see which part of the world you live. If you lived in South East Texas, then I'd recommend calling/talking to the Vets at Texas A&M. Good Luck!

Mark, Jamie and The Poodle Gangsters!


----------



## rubymom

Sorry.....forgot to add that Ruby already had a tiny puncture in her upper pallet from the lower canine when my vet discovered the problem!
I'm sure it caused her discomfort! One thing for sure, she definitely has been eating with more vigor since the extraction! 
I would definitely check this pups mouth to see if a puncture is forming from the misplaced canine! And as far as cost and treatment, there is no way of knowing how intensive/ expensive it could get up the road. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!


----------



## wishpoo

Bad bite is mine personal "pet peeve" .

I would never buy a puppy with a bad bite since nobody can know how will bite develop later :rolffleyes: Some would say that it is true with a good bite also, that it can go off when adult teeth come in - but I would guess that that happening has MUCH smaller chance.

It can be very costly to correct the problem (surgery, braces) etc. (braces are about 2,000 $). It can also correct itself if it is a small "off" bite and it can be helped with a daily manipulation of the mandible, but there is no guarantee. 

I would take *markfsanderson* advice if you really want that puppy after all.


----------



## cbrand

Base Canine narrow is common in poodle puppies. In every case I have seen it resolve itself when the adult teeth come in. Pushing on the emerging adult canines a couple of times a day can help them flair. Once they are long enough to clear the outer gum, they will hold themselves in place.

As a breeder, I don't recommend pulling baby teeth because I think they help guide the adult teeth into the correct place. I have not seen that puppies have issues with the baby canines poking into the palate. They seem to eat and play normally.

If for some reason the adult canines don't clear, I would pull them. I would not pay for expensive orthodontia or for things like crowns.


----------



## rubymom

Cbrand, I'm hopeful at your experience of the "self correction" !
But, because there was already a hole puncture from the lower canine, extraction seemed the best option for Ruby at this point in time. hwell:
Sure hope things will correct themselves in the coming months!


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Vegas had this, my breeder let me know, showed me what to do, I pushed the teeth out when the adult teeth were coming in, no problem anymore at all.


----------



## rubymom

I'm feeling better hearing another positive result!


----------



## tintlet

over the years we have had several puppies ( all different lines) that had misaligned baby teeth. They normally fall in place when adult teeth come in. One of the puppies in our last litter did NOT align right. Her baby tooth was aimed inward and the adult tooth aimed out better. But it still di not clear the gum line and made a hole between the teeth.
The ortho vet said it was NO narrow based under jaw, but just a misdirected tooth. The ball therapy helped, but she ended up having to get a temp plate to direct the tooth. it should be fine in 4-5 weeks as it was "almost" normal. 

In all the poodles we groom, I have only seen ONE adult misaligned canine tooth. ( we check all the dogs teeth)


----------



## rubymom

tintlet, by chance, were you referred to a specialist in the charlotte or Raleigh area? (I noticed that there is a specialist located there.)


----------



## Fluffyspoos

22 weeks









23 weeks









24 weeks









26 weeks









This is from pushing the teeth out every day, with hard pressure. It didn't appear to be painful for him at all, he let me do it, and got a tree when we were done.


----------



## ziggylu

Thank you for your replies. After talking with our vet and speaking with the breeder again, we've worked out an acceptable resolution with the breeder and will go ahead and bring the puppy home I believe. 

I learned quite a bit reading this forum when we were researching poodles and breeders. Thank you for you help.


----------



## rubymom

Just thought that I would update everyone on Ruby.
She was referred to a specialist that recommended braces. 
Even with frequent pressure manipluations daily, the lower left canine came in misaligned to the point of making a hole in the top pallet. (The right lower canine was striking the upper canine somewhat, so that side also required braces.) Specialist says she has seen much worse and expects that once fixed, Ruby will be fine. We go back in two weeks for check. At that point, the plane may be put into place. If not ready for the plane then, we'll give it a few more weeks. 
Now, my challenge is keeping a 5 month old puppy entertained WITHOUT chew toys! hwell:


----------



## Desiree

Thanks for the update and pics.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

aw poor baby!!!!!


----------



## spoospirit

_Wow! I have never seen braces on a dog before. I happy that there is a way to fix the problem.
_


----------



## Fluffyspoos

Interesting! I'm really sorry to hear that you couldn't push them out on your own  I would've been really upset if I couldn't. I hope the braces works for her!


----------



## partial2poodles

Wow, I LOVE that something CAN be done. Its amazing how far animal medicine has come and I am glad to know someone who benefitted their dog by it.


----------



## neVar

my friend breeds jrt's and had a pup with this in thd last litter. Her vet had her freaking out about it- appointment booked with the specialist who called her back cancelling stating that 'relax it's nothing if the adult teeth come in funny THEN we'll look at it" 

teeth came in fine. 

it wouldnot bother me but i would want it stated that IF it needed pulling that cost was at least partially covered. 

i've also seen 'perfect' bite at 8 weeks need hlp when the adults come in


----------



## rubymom

One thing for sure, I can honestly say that I have been well-versed now on doggy dental issues, treatment plans and associated $$$ ! :rolffleyes:
Oh well...... I'm dedicated to the good health and happiness of my Ruby and I will always to do what is best for her! 
Just part of that unconditional love we all share with our poodles!


----------



## whitepoodles

Kudos to you on investing what I believe is quite a bit of $$$ in making sure your baby does not go through life with constant pain. You are a wonderful and responsible owner.

I too have never seen dog braces before.. Thanks for posting..


----------



## wishpoo

*Rubymom -* thanks so much for posting since I always was telling here on the PF that* some *dogs DO need braces after all and they can cost up to $2000 (at least my friend had to pay that here in CA ). 

For that reason I would rather buy a puppy with a correct bite to begin with.

You are doing a correct thing with investing into braces since "wrong bite" can effect dog's chewing abilities as well as jaw alignment which in return can cause jaw-joint pain :smow:

Wishing Ruby fast and painless correction :rose:


----------



## NOLA Standards

*Base Lower*

My parti - who grew to astronomical proportions - had base lower canines. As he is my baby, I asked to be referred to "doggie dentist". 

At our meeting I was basically told to calm down and be patient. He wouldn't do anything to Marques's mouth until after he was 6 months old. In the event Marques would have needed something, it would have looked much like the bottom retainer that many of us wore after braces and the cost was estimated at $350.00.

By the time he was 6 months old his mouth had "grown to fit". It seems from my personal experience and "Ruby's" and several others I that I have heard of, the costs - much like human dental issues - range significantly depending on the patients needs.


----------



## ziggylu

Thanks for the update on Ruby. We did end up having Cosmo's lower canines removed right after we brought him home. He had the punctures and the vet was concerned about infection in them. Since he broke a tooth not soon after I was glad we did it and didn't have double the mouth pain simultaneously(it was bad enough to have one after the other). Like Ruby he definitely started eating better once we removed them. 

His lower canines haven't started coming in yet. He's 21 weeks right now so anytime now. We're watching daily and I take him in weekly to the vet to have her look at his mouth since we've had other issues(broken tooth and now an upper canine coming in but the decidous baby not falling out...hopefully it will over the next few days). 

The vet commented today that his lower jaw is finally starting to look like it's changed a bit and hopefully the lowers will come in correctly. She's a standard person herself with 4 currently and others in the past and has seen this in her own dogs. She's hoping they'll coming in fine as that seems ot commonly happen. Hopefully we won't need the appliance. He's still really fussy about his mouth since he's had issues so I'm not sure how well pushing them out is going to go. 

No one has talked to use yet about the braces? Why the braces before the appliance?


----------



## rubymom

Thanks everyone for understanding that braces are not a cosmetic choice for Ruby, but rather an required intervention needed now in order to facilitate a proper bite for the future! I do not want my girl to "get by" today, only to be in pain down the road from improper jaw/teeth alignment! Yes, by the time all correction is done, it will cost me 3000.00- 3500.00, but it's got to be done, so I just have to deal with it.
Ziggylou, the reason for the braces BEFORE the plane is that the top canines need to be pulled back a bit in order to make space for the fully erupted lower canines. (Xrays show how much more growing the teeth have to do!) Once the specialist feels the top left canine has moved back enough, she will attach a plane so that the lower canine is guided into the proper space as it becomes fully erupted. As for the right side, the braces are on to pull the top canine back a bit to allow the fully erupted lower canine enough room to bite without brushing against the top canine. (All of the xrays show this space issue.)
I sure appreciate everyone's support on this issue! When people hear the word "doggie braces" they immediately think you're some excentric nut case to spend that kind of money on a dog. But, at least you guys understand why I have to do this for Ruby NOW!
Thanks, gang!
Your information and support makes me feel confident that I'm doing the right thing!


----------



## whitepoodles

Rubymom:

I admire the fact you are so dedicated and devoted to your dog to make sure that he feels better and has a quality of life by willing to invest this exorbitant amount in his dental care.

I would of done the same thing. You are not resorting to cosmetic surgery here or putting braces to allign teeth cosmetially, you are doing it so that he will have a quality of life and be pain free. Kudos !


----------



## rubymom

Today was our recheck to see how well the braces are working for Ruby. The great news is that the left base canine is now in correct position and not striking the roof of mouth or gumline! It is in place, sitting nicely in front of the top canine!!! She will NOT have to have the incline plane put in for further correction. YIPPEE!!!! 
The left braces were removed, but the posts were left in place to avoid putting Ruby under as we go back in 3 weeks to recheck the right braces. The specialist loosened the tension on the right brace and said that she wants to see a little more space created. This is to insure that all permanent teeth have enough room to erupt fully without striking each other during bite/chew. 
Bottom line- In 3 weeks, if all goes as expected, Ruby will be put under briefly to have all corrections removed! She should have no further problems with teeth or bite! 
Now, the down side......3 more weeks without toys! hwell:


----------



## Vibrant

Cheers has a base narrow jaw. Her lower baby canines started growing into the roof of her mouth so I had the vet put her under anesthesia, nip off the tops of the teeth and fill them. She had the advantage of keeping the space in her jaw for her adult teeth without the discomfort of the teeth growing into her palate. Her adult teeth came in fine and her bite is perfect. 
Some breeders will nip the tops of the teeth off with wire cutters, with no anesthetic. Personally, I couldn't do that to a puppy.


----------



## rubymom

Such breeders simply are after the $$$! 
Poor pups!


----------



## wishpoo

> Some breeders will nip the tops of the teeth off with wire cutters, with no anesthetic. Personally, I couldn't do that to a puppy.


I do not even know what to say to that :wacko::scared::wacko:


----------



## Jelena

I saw how teeth tips are being cut, I thought it's at least unpleasant for puppy, but it seems that it's even easier than nail clipping. So I changed my mind about this kind of intervention, why not to do it if puppy is not harmed and it saves it from pain that those teeth are already causing.

PS first teeth has less innervation than adult teeth so there is no pain


----------



## Vibrant

Jelena said:


> I saw how teeth tips are being cut, I thought it's at least unpleasant for puppy, but it seems that it's even easier than nail clipping. So I changed my mind about this kind of intervention, why not to do it if puppy is not harmed and it saves it from pain that those teeth are already causing.
> 
> PS first teeth has less innervation than adult teeth so there is no pain


I've seen it done once. The pup appeared unscathed by the whole ordeal and in the end I suppose it was probably less traumatic than having a pup anesthetized and a tooth pulled or cut down.
I love your signature, Jelena!!


----------



## Jelena

Thanks Vibrant  !


----------



## wishpoo

> PS first teeth has less innervation than adult teeth so there is no pain


If any cut is done below the enamel layer it MUST hurt !!! Not only that - once enamel is broken tooth becomes very sensitive to temp. changes and is also very "open" for infection - regardless if it is a "baby" tooth or adult tooth.

If lover canines do not cause much damage to the palate and only 1 mm of a tooth needs to be removed , than filing in the dental office might work. BUT, chipping it off with a players is not appropriate IMO. Not only it IS painful - it has no precision to it and can also cause tooth to crack vertically :wacko:.

Sorry - I would never do it to a puppy unless it is done in a vets. office by experienced hand and in sterile conditions.


----------



## Jelena

I totally was thinking same as you are (every single word  ) until I saw how it's done, it sounds scary but in fact isn't. Only top of the tooth should be cut off, not too much. I'm pretty sure it doesn't hurt the puppy, or if it at all cause pain it's no more than nail clipping or ear hair pulling out.


----------



## ziggylu

Firstoff, thanks rubysmom for the update on Ruby. Glad to know things are progressing so well for her. We're still waiting for Cosmo's lower adult canines to start peeking through. He did lose the upper baby canine that we were afraid was going to end up retained yesterday so I'm relieved that won't need work as well.

Having had a puppy that had both punctures from baby canines in the roof of his mouth and a tooth(upper canine) broken and exposing pulp....my experience is that BOTH caused a great deal of discomfort to my puppy. We ended up pulling the baby lower canines and the vet cleaned a bunch of gunk from the punctures. There's various opinions on doing this but I'm glad we did, we could tell he felt MUCH better immediately afterwards. Unfortunately he broke an upper canine less than two weeks later. We did not put him under to pull this one as the vet didn't want to put him back under so soon. This also caused him noticeable pain that we treated with pain med until it fell out not soon after(Thank goodness it came out so soon after!). Given this, I can't imagine nipping the tops off the tooth voluntarily and leaving them exposed like that. If pulp or the interior of the tooth is exposed, it's going to hurt.

Our puppy is SO MUCH happier now that he's out of pain. I know opinions vary wildly on this and this is the only experience we've had so I wouldn't begin to claim to be the expert but I would definitely argue the point that either of these situations(palate punctures and/or exposed broken teeth) does indeed cause discomfort to the animal.


----------



## rubymom

Taking risks of pain and damage may be suitable for some, just not for me and mine.
Also, nipping off the tooth tip may not be totally effective at avoiding a top puncture as only xrays show how much more growing the lower canine will be going through. 
Bottom line......With so many variables about insuring my dogs teeth and bite for a lifetime, I'm only trusting trained professionals!


----------



## Vibrant

ziggylu said:


> I can't imagine nipping the tops off the tooth voluntarily and leaving them exposed like that. If pulp or the interior of the tooth is exposed, it's going to hurt.


I'm in total agreement with you, ziggylu. That's why I had Cheers' teeth cut and filled.


----------



## bukhato

Base narrow canines are a huge issue. 
Sometimes they can resolve themselves, but the cost of the surgery if they don't can exceed 2,500.00 
The baby tooth should be removed as soon as it is noted, then there is a chance that the adult grows properly, but if not then they may need another surgery to correct the adult tooth called a vital pulpotomy. If that is the only solution, then follow-up xrays are required every 6 months for 2 years after the procedure to ensure that the tooth is still alive. 
Treatment varies depending on the severity of the base narrow canines and you should always consult a dental veterinarian who will tell you about all the options and which are most likely to be effective and least stressful on your dog. 

If the baby tooth isn't removed it can cause the lower jaw to grow improperly. If the adult tooth is allowed to grow improperly and it punctures the upper palate, then there is the risk of an oronasal fistula, basically a hole into the nose from the mouth.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

*Old thread alert!*


Thanks for the extra info!


----------



## MarigoldMom

rubymom said:


> One thing for sure, I can honestly say that I have been well-versed now on doggy dental issues, treatment plans and associated $$$ ! :rolffleyes:
> Oh well...... I'm dedicated to the good health and happiness of my Ruby and I will always to do what is best for her!
> Just part of that unconditional love we all share with our poodles!


Hi, Rubymom: 
I accidentlly found your post, guess Ruby is now 9 years old and happy. I have a 16 months doodle which has the exactly same problem. the right bottom canine is vertical and pushes into her top plate and is making a puncture. I took her for the similar orthodontics treatment. However, no braces were applied, incline appliance was placed directly, and after 3.5 weeks, the tooth was not corrected at all. can you send your vet who treated Ruby to me? I've spent about $4500 on the treatment, my Mari is now wearing crown extension, but I don't see any hope it will correct it. I am thinking to get that tooth extracted though it is my first choice. 

Thanks very much in advance.


----------

