# Silver genetics/breeding



## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

(speaking only of black bases, though cafe au lait and silver beige are the same as blue/silver but on a brown base)

silver and blue are caused by the same fading gene.
one copy of the gene makes a dog blue, and two copies make a dog silver. 

if you breed a black dog (0 fading genes) with a silver (2 fading genes), all black-based puppies will be blue, since they have to inherit one of the silver parent's fading genes

if you breed a black to a blue (1 fading gene), there's a 50% chance that black-based puppies will be blue, and a 50% chance that they will be black.

if you breed a blue to a silver, there's a 50% chance for blue puppies and a 50% chance for silver puppies.

if you breed a blue to a blue, there's a 25% chance that there will be silver puppies, a 50% chance for blue puppies, and a 25% chance for black puppies.

as long as a both parent dogs carry at least one copy of the fading gene, it's possible for them to have a silver puppy (assuming that their genetics allow for black based puppies. so it's possible for a black dog and a white dog to have blue puppies (bc the white parent might carry a "hidden" fading gene), but not to have silver puppies, because both parents would need to have a copy and the black dog wouldn't (or it would be blue rather than black!)

as far as the extent of fading I have no idea. I think it might be chance? but others might know more! My blue boy is already getting very light at 13 months, but I know he's not a silver because his mother was brown (no fading gene), whereas MiniPoo's blue Dakota is much darker than Jasper despite being older. 

also I'm attaching a pic of Jasper just because


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Very good explanation by Coldbrew. I'll add just a few points.

First, since the fading gene has not been identified, the explanation that Coldbrew gave is a theory, not proven fact. Some people have suggested that the fading genetics might be somewhat more complex. Perhaps more than one gene is involved -- and that idea would perhaps explain why you see a continuum of colors from light silver to dark blue. Anyway -- I still think that Coldbrew's explanation is a good one to go with, and this explanation is behind some of what I say about Cammie below.

Second -- the genes that determine whether a puppy will be born black, born brown or born in the white/cream/apricot/red spectrum have been identified and parents can be tested to see what genes they carry. All silvers and blues are born black. When a dog is in the white/cream/apricot/red spectrum, you can't tell by looking at the dog whether it carries the gene that causes fading in puppies that are born black (or brown). So you need to look to see if it has any parents (or grandparents) that are black/blue/silver. A cream poodle that has two black parents would not carry the gene that causes black puppies to fade. A cream poodle that has two silver parents would definitely carry the gene that causes black puppies to clear to silver.

For example, my Cammie is cream. Her mother is black and her father is blue. You cannot tell whether Cammie carries the gene that causes black poodles to fade by looking at her -- only by analyzing what black/blue/silver poodles are behind her. So based on the color of Cammie's parents, she definitely inherited a non-fading gene from her mother. Since her father is blue, she might have inherited a fading gene from him or she might have inherited a non-fading gene from him. So she might have 2 non-fading genes and she might have one non-fading gene and one fading gene.

We bred her to a silver stud. The silver stud carried the gene for the cream spectrum. So we knew that each puppy had a 50/50 chance of being born black and 50/50 chance of being born in the cream spectrum. The puppies that were born black would definitely inherit a fading gene from their silver sire. But what about the fading or non-fading gene that they inherit from their mom? Well Cammie might have 2 non-fading genes, or she might have one fading and one non-fading. So based on that, there is a 25% possibility that she would pass a fading gene on to her puppy and a 75% chance that she would pass a non-fading gene on. So that means that for any puppies from this litter that are born black, there is a 25% chance that the pup will be silver and a 75% chance that the pup will be blue. In fact, we ended up with four cream puppies and only one puppy born black. The puppy born black is now a gorgeous blue 2 year old poodle.

Hope this helps. For more information on the genetics that determine whether a puppy will be black spectum, brown spectrum or cream spectrum, see the following page. The chart is very helpful. 
VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

lisasgirl said:


> ...
> Do you need two silver parents to guarantee that you'll get silver puppies? Could two non-silver dogs end up with silver puppies if there's silver back in their pedigree?


You could certainly have one non-silver parent if there is silver in that parent's pedigree. So a silver bred to a cream who had 2 silver parents would produce silver puppies (possibly also some cream puppies). 

Take a look at the vetgen chart that I linked to at the end of my previous post. There are basically 2 questions to consider: (1) What are the chances that the puppies will be born black? (2) Are there fading genes on both sides of the pedigree so that the puppy will be likely to inherit one fading gene from each parent?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

peppersb said:


> You could certainly have one non-silver parent if there is silver in that parent's pedigree. So a silver bred to a cream who had 2 silver parents would produce silver puppies (possibly also some cream puppies).
> 
> Take a look at the vetgen chart that I linked to at the end of my previous post. There are basically 2 questions to consider: (1) What are the chances that the puppies will be born black? (2) Are there fading genes on both sides of the pedigree so that the puppy will be likely to inherit one fading gene from each parent?


If the puppy is born black would it be a bad black because it has the fading gene?


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

CT Girl said:


> If the puppy is born black would it be a bad black because it has the fading gene?


no, it would be a blue.


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## someday (May 3, 2016)

CT Girl said:


> If the puppy is born black would it be a bad black because it has the fading gene?




If I correctly understood your question, then I believe that a black such as you describe (with one fading gene) is automatically a blue. I assume 'bad blacks' are something different. The qualifier to be a black, a blue, or a silver is not the color the dog turns out (aka phenotype) but rather is the absence or presence of fading genes (genotype). 

As for what makes a 'bad black', I'm not informed enough to say. 

So to answer your question summarily: a black-based dog with a fading gene cannot be a bad black. It must be blue or silver, not black, if there is any fading gene in its makeup. Therefore, if it's not considered a black at all, it can't be a bad one  I hope that helped. 


Edit: I posted right after Coldbrew and took a lot longer to get to the point haha


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

My Taylee was from a black X silver breeding and she was jet black until she was one year old, at which point she began to clear to a light blue from the tail forward. It took about a year to work it's way up and complete the change and she got gradually lighter her entire life to the point that in her final years she was merely one shad darker than my silver.

Then about 3 1/2 years ago my breeder offered me a "black puppy" from a silverxblack breeding, and I said nope, I want a black not a blue. My breeder insisted that the puppy was black, but I refused. Well Guess what, 3 1/2 years later, that puppy is still black as the day that she was born. How she does not have a fading gene from her silver father, I do not know!

Now Timi, From an apricotxblack breeding is a bad black I think. I will be more certain when I see her next to Trulee who is from blackxblack, but I feel like her coat color is much like the poodle eye - most of the time they look black to us, but when you see them in a super bright light, you realize that they are actually super dark brown. 
Timi's sire though, he is a very light apricot. I need to check his pedigree, but it is quite possible that there could be some white breeding behind him, and white are often bred with silvers to darken the pigment of the white ( which is often really a cream /apricot, not a real white) and to get the fading gene to lighten the coat, so could it be a fading gene that is causing Timi's bad black? Her mother is a very good black.

Given the above, I am going to agree that there has to be more than one gene involved in the fading. The above just cannot be explained by simple one gene inheritance.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

This is super interesting stuff. I see there's a lot to know about poodle colors!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lisasgirl said:


> I know the "fading gene" isn't fully understood, but I'm just wondering if anyone can shed some insight on how it works when you breed for silvers. I remember once asking a breeder about one of their sires, and being told that even though he's a silver, his puppies almost always come out white. Do you need two silver parents to guarantee that you'll get silver puppies? Could two non-silver dogs end up with silver puppies if there's silver back in their pedigree?
> 
> Also, is the degree of fading at all predictable, or do you just have to see what happens?
> 
> Basically I'm just wondering how silvers come about, lol, and what kinds of things people take into consideration with breeding or choosing silvers. Any thoughts?


It's just the result of pure chance if a Silver dog's offspring have almost always come out white. Obviously that tells us the silver dog carries a white gene and was bred to either a)white bitches or, b)non white bitches who carry a white gene. There are statistic probabilities of how many white puppies a Black/blue/silver (genetically the same color) dog, who carries white, will produce when bred to another dog who carries white. No different from the idea that everytime a human has a baby, there is a 50% chance they will have a boy and a 50% chance they will have a girl. Yet some people have 5 boys and never have a girl. It's just the way the dice rolls sometimes. https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-b.html This chart can help you see, statistically, how many puppies would be white if a silver dog carrying white was bred to certain other colors. Remember that silver is genetically black when looking at the chart. 

But in general, two blues bred together will produce silver, black, and blue. A silver bred to a blue will produce silver and blue. A silver bred to a silver should produce all silver...A silver bred to a black, should produce all blue. Oversimplified a bit, but that's the general idea. It's a bit more complex than that and, like peppersb said, there may be a variety of genes involved.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

CT Girl said:


> If the puppy is born black would it be a bad black because it has the fading gene?


Silver, blue and black (including bad black) puppies are all born black.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It's just the result of pure chance if a Silver dog's offspring have almost always come out white. Obviously that tells us the silver dog carries a white gene and was bred to either a)white bitches or, b)non white bitches who carry a white gene. There are statistic probabilities of how many white puppies a Black/blue/silver (genetically the same color) dog, who carries white, will produce when bred to another dog who carries white. No different from idea that everytime a human has a baby, there is a 50% chance they will have a boy and a 50% chance they will have a girl. Yet some people have 5 boys and never have a girl. It's just the way the dice rolls sometimes.


Good point CM. In my cream x silver breeding, there was a 50% chance that each puppy would be in the cream spectrum and 50% chance for being born black. I was hoping for more of the "born blacks" but we ended up with 4 creams and one black (the black cleared to blue). If we repeated this breeding, there still would be a 50-50 chance for cream vs born black.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

peppersb, Dreamer is a lot like Cammie. She is the result of a blueXblack breeding. Her father threw lots of silver, blue, and cream. Her mother threw red, black, cream, blue, and possibly other colors. I was considering breeding her to a silver when the time comes, but I am not sure that I would even end up with the desired silver puppy. If I do breed to silver, I will try and post on this thread. However I do have a question on the fading gene.
There is a splendid dog in Miami am considering. he has lots of agility, rally, obedience, and tracking(i think) titles as well as his akc and ukc championship. He is BLACK from a blackXbrown breeding. If I bred him to Dreamer, I would get ONLY blue when the black puppies matured? I am assuming since dreamer has brown, silver, black, red, blue, and white all in his pedigree that brown, blue, and cream are are possible. However, I am on the wall about whether black or silver could pop out.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

DreamAgility said:


> peppersb, Dreamer is a lot like Cammie. She is the result of a blueXblack breeding. Her father threw lots of silver, blue, and cream. Her mother threw red, black, cream, blue, and possibly other colors. I was considering breeding her to a silver when the time comes, but I am not sure that I would even end up with the desired silver puppy. If I do breed to silver, I will try and post on this thread. However I do have a question on the fading gene.
> There is a splendid dog in Miami am considering. he has lots of agility, rally, obedience, and tracking(i think) titles as well as his akc and ukc championship. He is BLACK from a blackXbrown breeding. If I bred him to Dreamer, I would get ONLY blue when the black puppies matured? I am assuming since dreamer has brown, silver, black, red, blue, and white all in his pedigree that brown, blue, and cream are are possible. However, I am on the wall about whether black or silver could pop out.


Cammie may or may not produce some blue. If bred to the black dog in Miami, you would definitely get black, and possibly some blue. Whether or not she would produce some blue depends on whether she got any of the genes responsible for blue from her blue parent. Obviously Cammie can produce cream, since she is cream, and obviously she can produce black spectrum if bred to a black dog. However, you will not be able to know if she can produce brown unless you color test her.

So yes..you would get black. Maybe blue. But not silver from that breeding.


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## Bluemoon (Dec 30, 2015)

What about abstract markings?

Zoie is from a brown (cafe?) x apricot crossing. All the puppies these two have produced have been black with either white abstracts or phantom markings.


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## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

My silver boy is from a litter of 7 silvers and one black. There was a black pup in an earlier litter from the same parents. The breeder is not expecting him to go blue, no white on his feet. The sire is silver from a long line of silvers and the dam is cream with a red/apricot/blue background. I have read that they think there is a dominant black and a recessive black, and I'm wondering if that might explain this black puppy who shouldn't be there.  Anybody know?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

sidewinder said:


> My silver boy is from a litter of 7 silvers and one black. There was a black pup in an earlier litter from the same parents. The breeder is not expecting him to go blue, no white on his feet. The sire is silver from a long line of silvers and the dam is cream with a red/apricot/blue background. I have read that they think there is a dominant black and a recessive black, and I'm wondering if that might explain this black puppy who shouldn't be there.  Anybody know?


There is a recessive black, but dominant black is what is responsible for black coat color in standard poodles. Black pup might just be a super dark blue.  Maybe genetically blue but so dark it's not going to clear. Or an example of how these things aren't just totally black and white. But recessive black is found in other breeds...like GSD. 

From VetGen: ""Most solid black dogs are solid black because they have the dominant black gene, but there is another type of black - recessive black. Recessive black is very rare and only occurs in a handful of breeds, including the German Shepherd Dog, Shetland Sheepdog, Schipperke and Puli. Some breeds, such as the Belgian Shepherd Dog, are thought to carry both recessive and dominant black. 
Recessive black is thought to be on the A locus. It is denoted by a, and is generally put right at the bottom of the A locus because it is recessive to every other A locus gene (sable Ay, agouti aw, tan points at). This means that if a dog has just one a gene, it will not be solid black (but sable, tan-pointed, etc), as it needs two a genes for the recessive gene to work."


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

DreamAgility said:


> peppersb, Dreamer is a lot like Cammie. She is the result of a blueXblack breeding. Her father threw lots of silver, blue, and cream. Her mother threw red, black, cream, blue, and possibly other colors. I was considering breeding her to a silver when the time comes, but I am not sure that I would even end up with the desired silver puppy. If I do breed to silver, I will try and post on this thread. However I do have a question on the fading gene.
> There is a splendid dog in Miami am considering. he has lots of agility, rally, obedience, and tracking(i think) titles as well as his akc and ukc championship. He is BLACK from a blackXbrown breeding. If I bred him to Dreamer, I would get ONLY blue when the black puppies matured? I am assuming since dreamer has brown, silver, black, red, blue, and white all in his pedigree that brown, blue, and cream are are possible. However, I am on the wall about whether black or silver could pop out.


Take a look at the link that I posted in post #3 or the one that CM posted in #10 (it is the same chart). First consider the things you can test for -- genes that determine whether puppies will be black spectrum, brown spectrum or in the cream spectrum (white, cream, apricot or red). Next, look for the fading genes that will affect any puppies that are born black or born brown.

Based on what you say, Dreamer is either BBee or Bbee. Bbee means she carries the brown gene. You could check her pedigree to see if there are any brown dogs behind her, or have her color tested to be sure.

The dog in Miami is black with one brown parent, so he could be BbEE or BbEe. The Bb means he carries the brown gene and the Ee means that he carries the cream gene (when I say cream, I mean cream, white, apricot or red). Both brown and cream are recessive. If he is BbEE, then he cannot produce any cream puppies. If he is BbEe, then he can. If he has ever produced a cream puppy in the past, then you know he is BbEe. Or you can have him tested.

Take a look at the chart to see what these dogs might produce. For example, if Dreamer is BBee and the stud is BbEe, then you would expect half cream and half black (genetically black, i.e., including blue and silver).

Next look for the fading genes to see whether the puppies that are born black are likely to clear to blue or silver. Remember silver means that they inherit a fading gene from each of the parents. Blue means that they inherit a fading gene from one parent and a non-fading gene from the other. So, you said that Dreamer is from a bluexblack breeding. That means that she might be carrying one fading gene or she might be carrying only the non-fading gene. She is definitely not carrying two fading genes. So it is possible that she would pass a fading gene on to a puppy, but more likely that she wouldn't.

It sounds like the black Miami dog does not have fading genes (both the black parent and the brown parent have not faded, right?). So he would not pass on a fading gene to the black puppies. That means that any puppies that are born black would most likely remain black. But there is some chance that one of them would be blue.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

sidewinder said:


> I have read that they think there is a dominant black and a recessive black, and I'm wondering if that might explain this black puppy who shouldn't be there.  Anybody know?


there is both a dominant and recessive black that has been identified in dogs, but I'm not sure if recessive black has ever been documented in poodles. I believe it shows up mostly in a small handful of herding breeds (GSD, shelties, etc). It could possibly explain a black dog born to a silver parent? I really don't know though!


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## someday (May 3, 2016)

I don't know enough about dog color genetics to make any assertions about it, but I do know there are many possible genetic influences on the phenotype that are more complex than simple dominants and and recessives. Bear in mind that there are codominants, polygenic traits, incomplete dominants, and probably others that I don't even know about yet. I've only taken Bio 1 [emoji1]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

This question might sound challenging, but I don't mean it that way - I'm just curious since I am not a breeder. I don't quite understand why one would mix colors when you don't know what color the puppies might turn out. 

So my question: why do breeders mate a male and female of different colors? Why not seek a male of the same color to have the same color puppies? Are they breeding to get a certain different color - or does color not matter to them as they are breeding for conformation and breed standards?
How does a parti color poodle come about? Why doesn't it happen when breeding different colors to each other, or does it?

I got my Callie (apricot) from a breeder who breeds exclusively red/apricot because I wanted apricot. I got Mollie from a breeder with a silver who bred to a silver line for the same reason. (but that was just my color preference for a pet and I had no intentions of breeding)

As I said, just curious about mixing colors as it appears a lot of breeders do it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

sidewinder said:


> My silver boy is from a litter of 7 silvers and one black. There was a black pup in an earlier litter from the same parents. The breeder is not expecting him to go blue, no white on his feet. The sire is silver from a long line of silvers and the dam is cream with a red/apricot/blue background. I have read that they think there is a dominant black and a recessive black, and I'm wondering if that might explain this black puppy who shouldn't be there.  Anybody know?


Wanting to add...no white on the feet doesn't really mean anything. A lot of black puppies have white on their feet and don't turn blue. And not having white doesn't always mean they won't turn blue..


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

SusanG said:


> This question might sound challenging, but I don't mean it that way - I'm just curious since I am not a breeder. I don't quite understand why one would mix colors when you don't know what color the puppies might turn out.
> 
> So my question: why do breeders mate a male and female of different colors? Why not seek a male of the same color to have the same color puppies? Are they breeding to get a certain different color - or does color not matter to them as they are breeding for conformation and breed standards?
> How does a parti color poodle come about? Why doesn't it happen when breeding different colors to each other, or does it?
> ...


There are a few reasons that different colors would be bred together. The main one would be if that dog, a different color from one's bitch, is right match to improve structure, temperament, movement, type, etc. Most breeders do focus on one or two colors, but often will need to breed outside of a specific color to attain certain desired attributes, and for health reasons, temperament reasons, etc. 

Parti color is caused by the piebald gene. This is a recessive gene and a parti colored poodle must inherit a piebald gene from each parent. The piebald gene can be tested for, and solid breeders who show in AKC avoid this gene in their dogs, don't generally breed to dogs who carry the piebald gene, because it's not a color that can be shown in AKC conformation.

Some of the best red breeders have incorporated cream, black and even blue dogs in their breeding programs in order to truly breed better dogs. Sticking to only red and apricot just wasn't improving quality the way adding in some quality dogs of other colors did. Incorporating colors that are not the main focus of one's breeding program can be an asset and the desired color can be returned to with a strategically planned breeding program.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

SusanG said:


> This question might sound challenging, but I don't mean it that way - I'm just curious since I am not a breeder. I don't quite understand why one would mix colors when you don't know what color the puppies might turn out.
> 
> So my question: why do breeders mate a male and female of different colors? Why not seek a male of the same color to have the same color puppies? Are they breeding to get a certain different color - or does color not matter to them as they are breeding for conformation and breed standards?
> How does a parti color poodle come about? Why doesn't it happen when breeding different colors to each other, or does it?
> ...


Hi SusanG -- good questions. First of all, it is not always true that you get the same color if you breed two dogs of the same color. For example, two black dogs (if they are Ee) can produce white or cream in addition to black.

Secondly, breeders look for a lot of things other than color. So a breeder might be delighted with the health, temperament and structure of a potential sire and may choose that dog even if it is not the first choice for color. Breeding involves working with real dogs, and there are sometimes trade-offs. My personal opinion is that color is one of the least important things to look for.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

So just so I understand this:

In order to produce blue or silver puppies, you need parents who can produce black puppies AND who have at least one fading gene somewhere in there. Sometimes both things can come from dogs who are neither black nor a faded color, because color genetics are complex. But if you look back in a dog's pedigree and see a lot of silver or blue, chances are they're capable of producing silver or blue puppies.

Will a silver parent usually pass on fading genes to the puppies? Like if you breed Black X Silver will you most likely get blue puppies?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

lisasgirl said:


> So just so I understand this:
> 
> In order to produce blue or silver puppies, you need parents who can produce black puppies AND who have at least one fading gene somewhere in there. Sometimes both things can come from dogs who are neither black nor a faded color, because color genetics are complex. But if you look back in a dog's pedigree and see a lot of silver or blue, chances are they're capable of producing silver or blue puppies.
> 
> Will a silver parent usually pass on fading genes to the puppies? Like if you breed Black X Silver will you most likely get blue puppies?


That is pretty much for the most part correct...And yes, Black x Silver should produce blue puppies.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

See my comments in blue below:



lisasgirl said:


> So just so I understand this:
> 
> In order to produce blue or silver puppies, you need parents who can produce black puppies AND who have at least one fading gene somewhere in there. Sometimes both things can come from dogs who are neither black nor a faded color, because color genetics are complex.
> 
> ...


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## starburst (Feb 13, 2020)

Color breeding can be very interesting for sure. When I bred my white girl(9 silvers in 5 genegeration) to blue dog with mostly whites with few black I was expecting whites. To my surprised I got 2 gorgeous silvers. 
Although, when I bred my black girl from black and white breeding to white dog from mostly white breeding with few silvers I got 4 whites and creams.








Pictures for enjoyment.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Beautiful photos. Very old thread.  Going to close it to further replies, but don’t hesitate to repost in a new thread if you wish.


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