# behavior issue-growling



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

It sounds like a health/pain issue to me. I think it would be odd for an aggressive dog to expose his belly. He tries to warn you off by his curled lip and growling so he is left with no recourse but to bite if you ignore his signals. You also don't mention him snarling or biting at other times. Don't pet him until he has been thoroughly checked by your vet. Is he eating and pooping normally? Do his ears smell?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

CT Girl's suggestions about things to have your vet check are good. As she also points out Seymour is giving you a warning about not wanting to be petted at the time or in the way that is being done when he gives you the lip curl and the growl. It is well worth heeding that warning so that things don't get worse. You don't want to add you being afraid of your own dog to the list of concerns that you have. As CT Girl also pointed out a really aggressive dog is not likely to give you a submissive posture such as belly up, which does lend support to the idea of a medical issue. As I (and others) suggested in your other post about this problem, ruling out medical issues is your first course of action. Let us know what the vet finds. Hopefully the plan of action will be clear.


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> It sounds like a health/pain issue to me. I think it would be odd for an aggressive dog to expose his belly. He tries to warn you off by his curled lip and growling so he is left with no recourse but to bite if you ignore his signals. You also don't mention him snarling or biting at other times. Don't pet him until he has been thoroughly checked by your vet. Is he eating and pooping normally? Do his ears smell?


Thank you CT girl, he actually does not snarl or try to bite any other time except when he is laying down. I really focused my attention on him last night and when he was laying down I went over to him, he turned on his back so I could pet his belly (as always). I started at his head, no snarl, I moved onto his belly, top belly no problem, once I got lower he began to snarl and try to bite. At this point it didn't matter where I pet him even when I moved my hand to his head. My husband then hovered his hand by Seymour's lower area and Seymour showed his teeth, we didn't even touch him. I didn't mention, because frankly I forgot. 

Last year Seymour went in for his surgery to be fixed. One of his male parts did not descend so the vet had to do invasive surgery. Seymour's healing time was a long time and actually since then I have noticed that every now and then he will try to bite when touching him. It never connected until now that might have something to do with it. My dad was in the medical field for humans said that his scar could be bothering him or he could have scar tissue that is bothering him and causing him discomfort as it does in humans. I can't wait for our vet appointment today so I can finally have some answers! 

Thank you for all of your help, I will post in here once the appointment is over!!


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> CT Girl's suggestions about things to have your vet check are good. As she also points out Seymour is giving you a warning about not wanting to be petted at the time or in the way that is being done when he gives you the lip curl and the growl. It is well worth heeding that warning so that things don't get worse. You don't want to add you being afraid of your own dog to the list of concerns that you have. As CT Girl also pointed out a really aggressive dog is not likely to give you a submissive posture such as belly up, which does lend support to the idea of a medical issue. As I (and others) suggested in your other post about this problem, ruling out medical issues is your first course of action. Let us know what the vet finds. Hopefully the plan of action will be clear.


Thank you! I actually gave some more background in my response to CT girl because I had forgotten about Seymour's surgery back in November of last year. I will 100% post after the vet appointment, I do not expect too many answers today as they might want to run some tests. Poor guy I do feel bad for him!


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## ChantersMom (Aug 20, 2012)

Hoping all will be well and you have a answer to the growling soon!


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

RunChanter said:


> Hoping all will be well and you have a answer to the growling soon!


Thank you! 4:30 cannot come soon enough! I will post any information that I find out today!!


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## AngelsMommy (Nov 3, 2012)

You mentioned that he had been neutered, but had complications that involved his testicles being twisted up in his abdomen. I would check to see if he is having pulling and pain from the scar tissue from this surgery. 
I noticed that you said your dad also mentioned this as he is in the medical community too. 

Adhesion (medical) 

Adhesions can be extremely painful.


This is if the tissue starts to pull or connect to other organs and cause the patient to be in pain. 

This is a strong possibility due to your observing that it is his lower abdomen that is what causes him to growl. 

Having had patients that dealt with this from abdominal surgery I know it can be very painful.

Good luck in finding your babies issue so that he is back to his wonderful self soon. 

Blessings!


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

It could be that he simply doesn't like being petted for any length of time... A lot of dogs and cats don't like the petting we do... I think we pet too hard and too long, whereas a quick pet would do (as in a lick)...


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

Thank you everyone!!! I do have an update. I took Seymour to the vet yesterday and the vet did not appear to be concerned that it was medical. The vet did feel around the area where I had concerns (I even had my dad come with me) and the vet said that the area was not tender. I mentioned the scaring, thyroid, limes, etc and the vet did not seem to think it was any of those. 
The vet thinks that it is purely behavioral. He thinks that something must have happened to Seymour in the area that he is growling in that scares him (??). He is not a rescue, we did buy him from a breeder when he was 8weeks old and have just noticed this behavior for the most part so I'm really trying to think of an event that could have been tramatic to him where he would try to bite and growl when touched in a certain area. I'm not sure if I'm happy with not running tests to ensure that it is nothing medical.
The vet said to stop touching the area all together for a month then slowly introduce the area again to be pet. Does anyone have opinions on this? 

Thank you all again


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I do think that you should stop trying to get him to accept this type of petting for now. He may really just not like it (or you may be right that he has a medical issue). After all, some dogs and cats, for example, are what we would call head shy (not liking petting on top of the head). If you think about it who really wants to get tapped on the top of their head all the time. My older niece used to always play with her 4 years younger sister's hair and tap her on the head. The younger one really disliked it, but it had become so habitual for the older one when her sister was too young to complain that it was very hard for her to stop doing it. I suppose if the younger one was a dog rather than a sister my older niece may well have gotten bitten!

I am not telling you to dump your vet, but since there were complications with his surgery, and I know we have Lyme disease around us on LI, if after a respite you find him to still really object to the belly rub you might want a second opinion. I have a great relationship with my vet (a poodle person by the way), but it is of 20 years duration! We know each other very well and have solved many problems together.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Definitely don't pet his belly. I think a second opinion is in order. In my experience most dogs, especially if they expose their belly, enjoy having it rubbed. If someone pets a dog too long usually a dog will shake off the hand or move. Only if repeated signals are ignored will a dog resort to growling or snapping. Even if you need to drive a ways I would get another really good vet to check him. Catherine's sounds ideal. It just doesn't sound right to me.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

You say it's recent behavior so this may not apply, but my dog was neutered at about six months. He is now almost 16. He does not growl at me, but he wriggles and is unhappy if I brush or want to trim his coat in that area. I really believe that the memory of the pain he went through still affects him. Obviously not all dogs react in the same way, but it's also true that sensitivity to pain varies among humans and it may among dogs as well.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

patk said:


> You say it's recent behavior so this may not apply, but my dog was neutered at about six months. He is now almost 16. He does not growl at me, but he wriggles and is unhappy if I brush or want to trim his coat in that area. I really believe that the memory of the pain he went through still affects him. Obviously not all dogs react in the same way, but it's also true that sensitivity to pain varies among humans and it may among dogs as well.


I wonder if this is a case of remembered pain or painful scar tissue? My Aussie was a very sensitive soul but he never had this issue.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I wonder if this is a case of remembered pain or painful scar tissue? My Aussie was a very sensitive soul but he never had this issue.


My guy also does not like having his bottom sniffed and will hunker down rather than play with most dogs who invite play. As my mother once said to him after living with him awhile: you're an odd duck. Too true.


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

You are all so wonderful, I really appreciate everything in helping me solve this issue. I'm so happy I decided to join this forum. I was advised to ask for a lymes test, so the vet is running that now and I hope to have the results tomorrow. I am going to get a second opinion if the test is negative (I really hope that it is negative!). 

I never thought that Seymour could really be mentally affected from the surgery. The surgery was about a year ago in November and just last month was when he started this behavior. I'm not sure if something triggered the behavior? I have never been invovled in any kind of incident with him that would cause him to be so behavioral when it comes to that area on his body. The only thing I can think of is when my husband and I are not home, since Seymour and Audrey have full run of the downstairs of our home, maybe while they were playing and something happened? They are alone for about 7 hours a day (mon-friday), sometimes more depending on the day of the week.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have never heard of this as a Lyme symptom but I am not a vet. Since the surgery did not coincide with the behavior that probably means it is not remembered pain. Did your dog use to enjoy belly rubs? I wish I could be of help, this really is a mystery. I really thought your vet would find something. Did she find this change of behavior odd?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think dogs tend to live in the moment more than we do about most things like this. For example, I believe that most dogs who don't like going to the vet act the way they do because we send a vibe through our own concerns about what will happen there. It is hard to imagine that it is remembered pain, especially since the behavior is disconnected in time from the surgery, although I certainly agree with patk that there must be different tolerances for pain among dogs just as there is among people. Pain perception is a symptom and therefore subjective (and difficult to assess in a nonverbal subject) in contrast to a sign of illness, such a fever that can be measured objectively. It seems more likely that there is a biological explanation (e.g. some real current discomfort).

Lyme disease can have some neurological manifestations, which I would imagine would mostly be noticed as behavioral changes for dogs.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> I think dogs tend to live in the moment more than we do about most things like this. For example, I believe that most dogs who don't like going to the vet act the way they do because we send a vibe through our own concerns about what will happen there. It is hard to imagine that it is remembered pain, especially since the behavior is disconnected in time from the surgery, although I certainly agree with patk that there must be different tolerances for pain among dogs just as there is among people. Pain perception is a symptom and therefore subjective (and difficult to assess in a nonverbal subject) in contrast to a sign of illness, such a fever that can be measured objectively. It seems more likely that there is a biological explanation (e.g. some real current discomfort).


i don't want to sidetrack this thread, but i do find ideas like this fascinating, because in reality we know very little about our own psychic lives, let alone other animals'. my dog, for example, has no problem with my touching him in the same area when i bathe him. but when he is on his back, underside being trimmed, that's when he wriggles around. neuroscientist gregory berns is doing some fascinating research on emotions in dogs. i'm not qualified to speak in any depth on this issue, but it seems to me it's not a far reach from emotions to remembered pain. and i think there is sufficient evidence that hand shyness in dogs often comes from having been hit by a human. i don't know what that is except remembered pain, with a raised hand as a trigger for recollection. of course that's not proof, but it's an interesting observation when we talk about dogs living in the moment.


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi everyone, I just got test results back, all of Seymour's levels are perfect. He is negative for Lymes and Heartworm. I am led to believe that this is now a behavior that I must correct. I have already begun not petting him at night and now he looks for me to pet him. He lays by my feet on the couch every single night and when I got up last night, Seymour layed on his back and I pet his head. He did not growl or show his teeth so I praised him for being good. 

I thought for sure something would show up in the tests; Lymes or Thyroid. I guess not, he is in perfect health according to his lab results. He is a healthy weight, low for a mini but still healthy. 

Any suggestions for what I can do for this behavior would be great until I can have a specialist come in and teach me how to train him a little bit better.

Thank you all so much!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I still don't think it is a behavior issue as he only does it when a certain area is rubbed. For some reason touching this area causes discomfort. I would not rub his belly. I am correct in that is the only time he snarls or snaps, right? Did your vet touch his belly? Did your dog growl at her too? It any have been a temporary thing - no one wants their belly rubbed if they have an upset tummy. If I can I will ask my trainer tonight. She is also a certified behaviorist. Please tell me any signs you notice so I can give her the complete lo down.


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

Hi CTgirl, I have only noticed it when I touch him on the tummy when he is on his back. When he sees me coming over to him he will always lay on his back (he has been doing this since a young age). I pet him on his tummy and as I move lower he will growl and show me his teeth. If I do not stop he will try to snap at me. He does not do this if I touch his head, unless I touch his tummy first, then all bets are off, no matter where I touch him he will show his teeth. I have tried, and probably against advice, putting my face by him when he does this, and he will lick me like crazy. It seems to maybe be something with my hands because after he licks me and I pull away I will hover my hand over his tummy and he will again show me his teeth. I am going to try to capture it on video maybe that will help the understanding of what is going on. It's hard to describe!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I should think you'd not want a dog to bite because he's being touched somewhere he doesn't like. If there's no medical reason and he is feeling fearful or vulnerable on his back with his tummy being touched, you can condition her gradually to loving his tummy being rubbed. 

I'd make a few sessions a day...very short, like 2 or 3 minutes or less each. Take him to the room in your house where he's most comfortable, where there's nothing else stressful going on, no other people or animals around at that time.... and sit down on the floor with him. 

Work with him when he's hungry, just before meal time and have some very high valued food tid bits in a fanny pack or up on a table near you. 

Start touching/stroking him where he _does_ like it and work your hand over to his tummy. Just give him one gentle stroke on his side, near his tummy and feed him a taste of steak or chicken, hot dog, something very tasty and novel. 

Then take your hand away and just sit there doing nothing. Stop the attention AND the treats for about 10 seconds. Then put your hand back and at the same time, with your other hand feed him another bite of the steak. Add some soft, cooing sounds. Do this say...5 repititions and end the session.

Next session, as long as he's comfortable with what you're doing, add a few more reps to the session. Stay calm and relaxed yourself and just make it a quiet, one on one time for you and your dog. Make it all pleasant and rewarding. If he growls, don't worry that you're rewarding the growl with food. It is good to reward a growl because you want that growl. It gives you information on how he's feeling. And you can back off and do something even less intrusive. Move to another area where he's more comfortable for a while. 
The main thing...the thing that takes precedents is the pairing of the stroking the tummy and the highly tasty food. You're making the bad thing turn into a good thing. That is how dogs learn. Association. Let us know how it goes.

Do this when you touch him anywhere if he's uncomfortable everywhere you touch him. DO NOT PUT YOUR FACE CLOSE TO HIM EVER 

If you see no improvement within 2 weeks, get a behaviorist in for sure and revisit the idea that something medical is going on that hasn't been discovered. Get another opinion. Don't let other people pat him for now. Keep him in quiet environments...low key.

When you train him or just day to day living with him, how do you interact with him? Do you use a lot of harsh punishment or scolding, if not from you, someone else? Sorry to ask if you don't but I'm just trying to see if there has been any other contributor leading up to this.

If it just started _out of the blue _and there have been no other signs (which _many_ people miss) leading up to this, then I'd still be wondering about a physical cause that hasn't been discovered.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

has your vet tried ultrasound? that might be a better way to detect any growth than just hands-on examination.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I don't think it is a case of him not liking to be touched there. He allows petting in other areas, he exposes his belly which is a submissive posture and he know in the past that this invited petting. I think he is reacting from pain and your vet is wrong. Your dog's behavior is not consistent with an aggressive dog. I strongly encourage you to see a different vet who has a good reputation. I asked you before but you have not responded on this issue which I feel is very important to understand what the issue is. How did your dog react when the vet touched the area your dog is reactive to? I think an ultrasound is a great idea. I feel seeing a different vet is important because the issue may be from the earlier surgery.

Either way till you get to the bottom of this do not put your face near your dog. Excellent point poodle beguiled. If a 2nd vet rules out a physical problem I like the training you suggested.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Lots of dogs that bite act submissively though. I agree that it seems odd that suddenly this behavior has surfaced, which makes me think something hurts. But lots of dogs become defensive depending on a variety of reasons...breeding/temperament, handling, experiences they've had in the past. Some of these things come to a head at some point where all along nothing showed up before. If the dog's warning signs that may have been more subtle went un noticed, things can escalate down the road. 

I totally agree with getting another opinion and more tests to make sure there's nothing lurking inside of him that the other vet didn't find. Hoping for the best for your dog and you.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Thinking this one through, from a very amateur but widely read position, he is adopting a submissive position - "I am harmless, do not hurt me!" When he was a pup, he was happy to let you rub him all over - now he is an adult he is ambivalent about letting you touch his most vulnerable areas, even though his posture seems to invite it. If pain is definitely ruled out as a reason for this (and there could still be something going on physically), then it seems to me there are two ways of handling it - manage it by avoiding ever touching him there, or teach him that it is safe and rewarding to let you touch him there. I'd be interested to know if he reacts to you stroking that area when he is standing up, and feeling less vulnerable?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/pets/dog-behavior/canine-body-language-“don’t-touch”?page=all

Why Does My Dog... Like to Have His Belly Rubbed?

I have tried to find more about this with an Internet search. Hopefully one of these liks will be helpful.


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## laurenbenedict (Oct 7, 2013)

Thank you everyone! Sorry I have been absent from here I took a little vacation! I am tapping more into Seymour's behavior. I am noticing that it is not just when I touch his belly but sometimes when I touch his sides. He mainly does this when it's night time or when he has had enough of an activity. He can be licking your face then you're petting him and you touch him on the back or something and he will nip at you. I do not think that he is trying to bite to draw blood, but I think it is his way of saying "leave me alone."  

Has anyone used a muzzle? Would a muzzle be a good idea for when we go into public? I've heard different reviews. I thought a soft muzzle would be good to get him back to liking to be pet again. I would use the muzzle and give him positive rewards. I know it's a punishment but I would not use it as one. I don't want Seymour to be restricted to being home all the time but I don't want to take a chance of him biting someone either. I haven't really read into using a soft muzzle. I heard from a friend who is learning to be a trainer that they could work well then someone told me the dog will become more aggressive if I use one.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't think a muzzle would help him enjoy being petted - it might be a safety insurance if anyone tried to pet him despite you asking them not to, but from his point of view I suspect it would make him more wary of strangers approaching rather than less so, by making it impossible for him to warn them off or protect himself. To me it sounds more and more like a pain issue - I wonder if it could be a joint or muscular issue, even?


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

I would get a second opinion from another vet. This behavior combined with the previous hiding under the bed is not normal and does seem like the behavior of a sick dog. Ultrasound might be a good idea.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think you have two options. Get another vet to look over your dog or, if you are convinced there is no physical problem, take your dog to a behaviorist. Use a muzzle only if the behaviorist recommends it which I highly doubt. Don't fool around with growling and snapping. This can quickly escalate, you need to consult with professionals. Anything less is putting your dog's life in danger and other people at risk.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would not use a muzzle. If you are inexperienced and uncertain while putting it on you risk making the whole situation worse. I would not be concerned with trying to convince Seymour to accept petting at this time. It is more important to figure out what the underlying problem is than to force him to accept attention that he clearly is not enjoying. I agree with CT Girl that this could escalate if not handled properly and promptly. I have replied to your PM regarding this as well.


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