# tough decisions to make and venting a bit



## outwest

[edit: a book, but I feel better. :act-up:]

Bonnie is finished with all her testing except her final hip at 2. All tests are normal, ofa preliminary is excellent. The health of her is not a question; she's the most robust dog I have had. Now I have Jazz - male. 

Bonnie has lots of wonderful strengths - uber smart, sweet, responsive, happy, biddable, moderate rear end with great pelvis angle, unusual breeding (minus or plus depending on who you are), athletic to excess (full control of her body and really fast running), nice feet, fabulous dense coat, black eyes, allergy free, no intestinal or ear issues, nice face and pretty in her own way. Her negatives are her atypical, more muscular, shorter legged poodle look and front legs with a straight, too far forward end. People stop me in the street to comment on how pretty she is (prances like a pixy). Her color has cleared to a light apricot, which is nice, but she can easily be called a very dark cream. 

I now have Jazz, who is a more typical AKC show poodle background with long legs, slimmer skull, longer muzzle. I want to show him if he turns out as nice as I think he is right now. He even has that nice front end and a real chest. 

here is why I am posting:
I am seriously considering spaying Bonnie even though I have finished all her testing. My reason is because I do work and my mother is with the dogs a lot. I can not ask her to take care of puppies if I should breed her. Also, my mother was freaking out because she thought Bonnie might be going into heat again (she is not- been only 4 months) and says it is not fair of me to have her deal with a female in heat with an intact male around (mind you- Jazz is all of 13 weeks old LOL). 

I feel kind of sad about spaying her. She has a decent Wycliffe at 28%. If she had only a little longer legs, she would be gorgeous and very competitive in AKC. Her dam was the one who carried the stockier build, not her sire (who has a mini in there). She does have her UKC Grand Champion and her CGC (but most all dogs can get a CGC if they have owners to work with them). She got her GrCh without problems at only 10 months old. 

She is such an awesome dog. I think she has much to offer to the right lines. To me she is more valuable to poodles than Jazz, who is clearly more typical, quite elegant, goofy and fun, calm standard. Bonnie has immense drive and working ability. Jazz doesn't. He is super sparkly and elegant and showy, but doesn't have that burning intelligence in his eyes like Bonnie does and always has had. He has a face you look at and your heart melts because it is so pretty. Bonnie has a face you look at and wonder what she is thinking because her eyes twitch and she talks with them. Not sure how to explain it. 

If I show Jazz and he does well, should I neuter him, too? There are butt loads of beautiful black show style male standard poodles. He is gorgeous so far (to my novice eyes). His COI is under 3%, but his sire was a higher COI, high Wycliffe dog from a popular kennel. His black dam is half Palmares reds and half unrelated SoCal show kennels and outcrossing. 

I want to show him because it is a fun hobby and I think I might have a great dog, but some have told me why are you showing if the goal isn't to evaluate breeding stock? They are quite adamant about that, actually. 

And, since I didn't show Bonnie in AKC how could she have truly been evaluated as 'breeding stock'? She wouldn't have won because her reach isn't what the others have even though her movement and timing is terrific (her drive is incredible, though). She is near 22 inches tall. 

Anyway, just wanted a little sympathy I suppose. I know Bonnie's breeder did keep one out of her litter with the interesting genetics, so the blood won't be lost. Maybe Bonnie will calm down some after she is spayed. She is almost always 'on' in a sweet way. On the other hand, what good is having this type of poodle if the genetics die because everyone spays or neuters them because: ...their legs are more muscular and a tad short? She is square, but not like Jazz. Jazz has what I call a true short back. 

I don't see what the problem is with showing Jazz AKC and not breeding him. I had one person tell me I would be "unnecessary competition" and "people would be mad", when she was admiring my pretty boy and I told her I was going to show, but probably not breed. It is comments like that that make me want to stick with friendly UKC, but I want to prove him in AKC for more than my pleasure. His breeder has taken so much from so many for so long. I would love to take one of her dogs AKC again for that reason, too. There are people who have taken one AKC and they are champions, but not lately. Jazz is at the tail end of lots of outcrossing, although he does not have the mini line that Bonnie does. 

sigh...thanks for listening.
She has a spay appointment for a week from now. We'll see if I back out of it.


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## petitpie

Sounds too soon for both you and Jazz. You could at least wait a bit until you're sure without regrets.


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## outwest

Yah, once Bonnie is spayed, she is spayed. Jazz is an unknown element as far as showing, but he was the clear standout in his litter- enough so that I switched from getting a female to a male and caused myself all this trouble. I think people in AKC can be so snooty saying I shouldn't show him. Harumph. On the other hand, he could grow four eyes in the next several months, too. Who knows!?


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## petitpie

I meant that Jazz is too young to worry about puppies with Bonnie, yet. lol

You have time to think it all through before you decide and your mother starts worrying and rushing you.


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## CharismaticMillie

I still think you should grow BONNIE out and show her AKC. I will never understand why you think she is not of this quality. She has a lot to offer an IMO belongs showing in AKC. There are moderate dogs that show AKC. 

And I agree, why show jazz if your plan is to neuter him? At least collect from him first.


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## Indiana

You know what I think of that comment about "unfair competition", well if they don't win against your dog, then they don't have a better dog than you. To them I would say, suck it up princess! For you to not show so they can win is like fixing the competition almost....or if it's not that, it's kind of like saying, let us have our little club where winning is easy. It just feels wrong! ANyway, I feel your frustration because you're feeling the pressure from all sides and you're trying to make everyone happy. But 5 years from now you might look back and think, I made the wrong decision; I should have at least tried! So my advice to you is, hang in there for a little while longer. This has been a dream of yours for a while so don't hang it up too easily. Bonnie has a unique set of attributes that are highly prized by all the people who want a real go-getter of a poodle, and which has an important part in the breed's heritage, so she brings a lot to the table for the breed. Anyway my view is, if you want to make the breed better and you have the means, the good quality dogs and the motivation to do a great and conscientious job of it, why not? There are people like me who are forever grateful to people who care about this fabulous breed and put a healthy, good quality litter out there.


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## outwest

CM, I really don't care about the money. I know that is hard for people to understand. I would only consider breeding if I truly thought something I had could make a difference for poodles. With Bonnie, I do think she has something to offer, but there is an intact sibling in black. With Jazz, he may have the looks (way too young to know for sure), but his genetics are not as interesting as Bonnies, although he does have more diversity than many because of the dam. There are lots of black male standards to choose from, also. 

See, you also think it odd to show without the intention of breeding.  I might change my mind about that depending on lots of future things. 

Anyway, her spay appointment is a week away. I will think on it some more.


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## mom24doggies

I'm with those who say you should wait to make any decisions. After all, is Bonnie even two yet? Once they are altered, that is it, it's done! If Bonnie were mine, I would probably have one litter from her, simply because I think that what she offers is valuable and not as common as what Jazz has to offer. Although if he has a nice front, well, we need all of those we can get! I have yet to get my hands on a poodle with a nice front, it's kinda sad really. 

I agree with CM, show Bonnie AKC! I'm sure there are plenty of people who would appreciate her. Same for Jazz, who cares if "everyone gets mad". Not their dog or their decision.  You want to have fun, and you should! 

Either way, sorry it's bugging you. I'm in sort of the same boat with Raven, neuter him earlier or later? I don't want to breed him, that is for sure, he's a nice dog but pretty ordinary, I see a lot of toys with his build prancing around the show ring, we don't need one more! I got him because he will serve my grooming purposes well. I want him to have some of those hormones for his development but I don't want some of the obnoxious male behavior that sometimes comes with that! Decisions!


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## CMPB

Indiana said:


> This has been a dream of yours for a while so don't hang it up too easily. Bonnie has a unique set of attributes that are highly prized by all the people who want a real go-getter of a poodle, and which has an important part in the breed's heritage, so she brings a lot to the table for the breed. Anyway my view is, if you want to make the breed better and you have the means, the good quality dogs and the motivation to do a great and conscientious job of it, why not? There are people like me who are forever grateful to people who care about this fabulous breed and put a healthy, good quality litter out there.



You know, Outwest, I am learning so much from you. I've been reading your posts for months and something that I notice fairly immediately is that you always rush to defend someone who needs it, educate the ill-advised and you promote healthy and fun debate amongst us all. Plus, you seem to genuinely care about others. This is your time to shine. I don't know you well enough to provide personal advise but I'd never miss out on the opportunity to improve the lines from which my dogs have come and fail improve poodle genetics based on tacky comments. The Outwest I've been following wouldn't advise that for anyone else so why would you consider it for yourself. My advice? Follow your heart and let Bonnie shine. Jazz can wait. And if you do decide that spaying her is the right move--do it because it's what YOU feel. Not what THEY want. :act-up:


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> CM, I really don't care about the money. I know that is hard for people to understand. I would only consider breeding if I truly thought something I had could make a difference for poodles. With Bonnie, I do think she has something to offer, but there is an intact sibling in black. With Jazz, he may have the looks (way too young to know for sure), but his genetics are not as interesting as Bonnies, although he does have more diversity than many because of the dam. There are lots of black male standards to choose from, also.
> 
> See, you also think it odd to show without the intention of breeding.  I might change my mind about that depending on lots of future things.
> 
> Anyway, her spay appointment is a week away. I will think on it some more.


I didn't say anything about money??! I said you should collect if you neuter him...not for money...but in case someone thinks he'd make a nice contribution to the breed. . There are a lot of black male standards to choose from, but not enough! And every dog that is an individual that is also healthy, physically contributing to the breed and temperamentally contributing to the breed, is important.

I don't think you should spay Bonnie yet either. my two cents.


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## outwest

I misunderstood.  

As you can tell, I am not ready to spay Bonnie yet, but am getting pressure from someone who is old and crotchety, but does love the dogs and cares for them when I am at work. She also wanted Jazz in her room at night and is quite enamored with him. I wouldn't even have three dogs if I didn't have someone around most of the time. I work four days a week, so it is important that doggy duty is shared. I can afford my dogs because I work.  

My husband is supportive of whatever I want to do, but also thinks having Bonnie in heat with a male dog around will be a complete pain. 

mom24doggies, Jazz does appear to have a chest and his front legs are UNDER his withers! I will try to post a picture in his 52 weeks thread in a few days. I have hardly seen that, too, and hope he keeps it! He got that from his dam, I believe, although I never got my hands on the sires front end. That was one of the deciding factors for choosing him over a stylish girl I was looking at. I was concerned about his really long, angulated rear legs, but many standards have good rears and not so many have nice fronts, so I went with the best front. Happily, he is pulling together and controlling those legs nicely now whereas when I first got him, I was worried he had something wrong because he was so darned clumbsy with them. People made me realize I was comparing him to Bonnie (little miss Olympics), which I should not have been doing. His rear legs are correct the way the standard wants them, although they seem so long and bendy to me in comparison to Bonnie. LOL 

Jazz is such a sweet dog and seems to have a great personality. I am hoping he doesn't turn into a monster if he isn't neutered. I have had one intact male dog before and he was a sweety, so it just depends. Oh- Bonnie is 20 months old. 

CMPB,  Thank you for your kind comments. I don't mind debate and welcome constructive comments and thoughts even if different than my own. There are plenty of people that don't agree with Bonnie's breeders ideas and Bonnie's background, but they don't know her so I take that with a grain of salt, too. Debate can be contructive as long as people don't get too fired up (and I have done that on occasion, too). 

As far as my dilemma, I was welcoming some devils advocate type of thoughts. It might help me figure out what to do. How strongly do I feel about it? I could send Bonnie off while she was in heat, for example, so my Mom didn't have to deal with it. I could hire someone to come help with the puppies if I was at work. Things could be worked out, but not without a lot of thought. Do I feel strongly enough about it to create a rift in an otherwise peaceful, happy house?


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## vtomblin

Why not wait for her to turn 2? Then breed her and spay her. The sire doesn't have to be Jazz. I would keep her intact at least until he is two or bare minimum until he is one to see how he turns out. 13 week old puppies change a lot and sometimes not for the better. If you are asking this question you obviously are not ready. How about asking how others deal with their intact males with bitches in heat? Dealing with the issue you are concerned about. See if you can come up with something that will be manageable. My boy goes on vacation to my sister's for 3 weeks. He loves it and so does my sister. Never a problem. Good luck. Take some time and decide without the threat of an appointment at the vet rushing you.


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## BorderKelpie

Dealing with males while the bitch is in heat: HA! 

OK, my personal experience with this is my males don't bother being idiots until they are about 18 months old, then, they whine, howl, quit eating and start marking when the girls 'smell pretty' (to them - not me - blech!). Once she's out, every thing goes back to normal. They are crated/rotated to prevent oops breedings. But even if crated in separate rooms, he can smell her and he talks to her and sings to her and picks at his food, etc. 

Not trying to scare you out of keeping Bonnie intact - I would much rather she stayed intact - I hate the idea of you spaying her, she's such an incredible little lady. What I have noticed is that right about the time you think you're about to loose your mind, it all stops. Just remember, it's only for a short period of time and only twice a year.  (Thank Dog it's not monthly!!!)

This first time in heat, Jazz probably won't even notice, if he does, he won't have a clue what's going on so your mom and hubby don't need to worry (yet).


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## zyrcona

You think you would make a contribution to the breed by breeding your bitch, but not your dog. So you are going to spay your bitch and keep your dog entire? Surely if this is your logic, you would be better off neutering Jazz and keeping Bonnie entire!

It sounds like you are working on a lot of _ifs_. What IF you let Jazz enter puberty and your house turns into a testosterone-fired pissandhumpfest? What IF Jazz mates Bonnie and you have an unplanned litter? What IF your mother can't cope with two entire dogs? None of these things have happened yet, and they may never happen, yet you're worrying about them. It's pointless worrying about these things until they happen, and when they do, you might find you take them in your stride and handle them when they occur. I have yet to meet a properly socialised entire dog (or at least a poodle) who is a nightmare who cannot be lived with. However puberty affects your dog, he is still the same little puppy you have brought up and worked with. You can work through and train out any issues he does develop, just as you can train him out of undesirable puppy behaviours like mouthing you and using the carpets as a toilet.

If Jazz does manage to have his way with Bonnie despite your efforts to prevent him, a vet can give her an injection and it's not the end of the world. If Jazz's behaviour really does turn out to be appalling, you can neuter a dog and at the same time replace his family jewels with silicone prosthetic balls -- although you will need to check if the show rings in your country allow this. You don't have to use Jazz on Bonnie. There are people in America who own stud dogs with interesting diverse pedigrees, some of them on this forum too. If you spay Bonnie now, it is permanent, and you will never have that option (and it doesn't sound as though you are even sure now). It will not hurt to wait if you are not sure.

If your mother is concerned, do something proactive to allay her concerns. Read up and ask other people about how they manage their stud dogs while their bitches are in heat. Do you have a safe place where one of your dogs can go so Bonnie can relax while she's in heat? Perhaps you can make a deal with a friend, or build or adapt an outbuilding on your land?


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## Quossum

Outwest, you're a worrier and unduly influenced by the negative comments of others. But then, you probably know that about yourself already  

*On showing:*
Many times you've repeated various negative things people have said about Bonnie despite assurances from experienced poodle people here to the contrary. Now you'd consider not showing Jazz because some random person told you "people will be mad," etc.? Really? You do know that tons of people show AKC purely as a hobby, with no breeding aspirations, right? Well, maybe not tons, but they're out there. I showed my first spoo for that very reason, and I showed two borzoi for that very reason. We didn't want to ever breed those dogs; we showed for fun and to socialize. Met lots of people, had fun gatherings. And of course you can always send the dog out with a handler if you want to get then finished more quickly without the stress on yourself of showing. Sure, you'd be without your dog for a few months, but then it's done.

*On breeding:*
I might offer a different perspective, since I'm a performance person with no aspirations to breed, but personally, I don't think a dog "has" to be a champion to be worthy of breeding. It should have something to contribute, whether that's structure, ability, or even unique genetics, and should have the proper health clearances, of course. So, if you feel Bonnie could give something back to the breed, and you're willing to take the inherent risks of breeding, and you're willing to put in the work (and fun, too, but work!), then for heaven's sake, keep her intact long enough to breed at least once. It sounds like you feel she'll have more to contribute to the breed than Jazz would, so I'm kind of with zyrcona on why would you sterilize the one that you want to breed and keep the one you don't want to breed intact. *But*...on the other hand, if you do want to show Jazz (even if it's just for fun), and you've decided you don't want to breed Bonnie, then sure, spay her. But you've got to be 100% sure of that in your head. She's young and if you do it, you can't go back.

*On living with intact dogs:*
On this one, sorry, but I'm with your mom! lol Personally, I couldn't live with the stress and management of having two intact, opposite gender dogs, and I don't blame your mom for not wanting to deal with it. Sugarfoot is intact and at only nine months, and he can already get into rather glassy-eyed, all-too-focused humping / molesting behavior towards one of my spayed Corgis. Yes, he can be redircted, but I shudder to think what it would be like around here with a bitch in full-blown heat. *However*, dedicated breeders can and do manage this situation all the time, and some of them have already chimed in that it's doable. To take the stress off of your mom, though, I would board one of the dogs during that special time. I totally sympathize with her on not wanting to deal with that, not wanting the responsibility on my shoulders. 

So anyway...I guess I just wrote a book to rival yours! You've gotten lots of great input here. You've got to decide...but if you're second guessing yourself, wait. Don't do something you'll regret.

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie

To clarify, I said that you should grow Bonnie out and show her AKC NOT because I am implying that that would make her breeding quality, but because you differentiate her from the dogs that show AKC. I see no difference. I see plenty of bitches just like her showing and winning, and I think that YOU need to see it too. Again, please do not misinterpret my words. This has nothing to do with her being breeding quality. I said it before, I think she has important things to offer to the breed. 

If Jazz has his front set back under his withers PLEASE consider keeping him intact for a while after he finishes his Championship, that is a valuable structural needed and missing in too many poodles. 

Finally, I too am surprised, like Zyrcona, that you are considering spaying Bonnie (clearly the poodle you seem to prefer in many ways based on your words) yet keeping Jazz (the poodle you seem to like less) intact. And that is why I said...keep BONNIE intact, show her (because clearly you have a _desire_ to show - why not do it with the bitch you prefer?), and make a difference with her in the breed.


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## Paragon

Outwest,

It looks like you are unsure.... Spaying is permanent, and cannot be reversed. You have something that many of us are wanting to keep in our lines! A Poodle that is still a Poodle! An AKC Championship does not necessarily make a Poodle "Breeding Quality". If you have enough money, and a handler, you can finish a terrible example of the breed with less than ideal temperment...

From what I hear your girl has drive... good... focus on dog sports, if you do not want to grow coat. Don't attack me here, but topknot can be faked with switches if necessary. Sometimes active poodles loose hunks of coat and it needs to be replaced to prevent huge gaps in coat. I am not talking about putting 4 dogs worth of coat in the topknot!

We show for fun.... There is nothing wrong with this! I let my kids show in the big ring because it is FUN for them to be in the ring! Maybe we could win more, if we were more SERIOUS, but that is not what we are about. We do get our points etc. but i do not believe in pressuing the dogs to win. There are Judges out there that appreciate a moderate well built Poodle... 


Did you think about where these comments are coming from? Maybe(likely) they feel threatened by your girl. If she is so crummy, why do they think she would be taking away pionts from those who are "WORTHY". I get this at times. Some people try to play with your mind. Don't listen!

From what you have written, Bonnie has alot to offer, and it would be a terrible shame if you were to spay her. We have a boy, and he is not awful when the girls are in. They can learn to be polite. Not all boys ar humpmasters! Some neutered guys are worse than intact fellows. Discipline and compliance are what your boy needs to learn now.

My old stud dog never marked, or acted digusting. He could be in the same room as a girl in season, and not go nuts... When he went to the breeding room, it was another story! Princie is a gentleman as well. He will whine a bit when the girls are in standing heat, and goes off his food some, but he doesn't whine incesantly or mark in the house. Your fears are possibly unfounded...

If you are unsure about the situation, send him to a family member, or board him during the few weeks a year that would be difficult in your mind. We make out fine here. Did you have a garage or basement to put your boy in while unsupervised?

For the girls in season, there is underwear with feminines. It takes care of the mess on furnature. We put blankets on as well. Easy to wash, just in case.... 

If you are debating.... Don't do it!

Paragon


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## Countryboy

No problem, O/W. U can vent all u want. 

I've had lots of experience with ladies venting. I simply listen. 

At the right moments I may even let out an 'uh-huh', an 'oh really?' . . . sometimes an 'oh noooooo', or even a 'you're kidding!'.

I've learned to _never_ offer advice. I just listen...


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## peppersb

Outwest -- You always start such interesting threads! Love the topic, love the responses.

I like the idea of keeping Bonnie intact and breeding her. I like the idea of keeping Jazz intact and showing him. I like the idea of living in harmony with your mother. Hmmmm. 

But this first heat won't really be a problem, will it? I mean no more of a problem than Bonnie's previous heat? If you bred her, would it be her next heat, or the one after that? Love the idea of you hiring someone to come in and help if the pups are too much for your mom. 

The idea that anyone should say that you should not show Jazz if you are not planning on breeding is completely crazy, and the idea that people would be mad at you is unbelievably mean-spirited. But what is this about not planning on breeding him? If he wins and the owner of a qualified bitch wants to use him as a stud, would you say no? Of course you can get him neutered whenever you want, but until then he'd be available, though perhaps not actively promoted, right? If you show him, I don't see any need to tell people what your intentions are regarding breeding him. And whatever your intentions are, it seems to me that they might be changed if you ran into the owner of a nice bitch who wanted Jazz puppies.

Could your SIL (the one with the moyen) help out by taking Jazz for a couple of weeks during any heats after Jazz is old enough to be a problem?

None of my business of course, but I'm really hoping that you can do all of those fun things with your dogs--puppies for Bonnie, showing for Jazz. Hope you have the opportunity to do both!


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## outwest

Thank you for everyone's thoughts! As far as showing Jazz, it is an annoyance what she said, but wouldn't stop me from showing him if he proves decent. As far as Bonnie, I am sleeping on it a couple days. As far as being a worry wart, yah, I do that. LOL


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## Yaddaluvpoodles

I know we all have a few.. but it's important to live live with no regrets. It is certainly possible to have intact males and intact females in the same household without having pups. Many, many people do it. It does require cooperation and knowledge of the heat cycle from all involved. 



I'd certainly have her DLA haplotype testing done, to see what haplotypes she carries.

IMO--showing does NOT define breeding worthiness. If it did and all breeder's only bred champions, you would be seeing a much higher number of common sire's and an even higher increase in the inbreeding COI's. If you feel that you need a title to "prove" Bonnie to yourself or others, there are plenty of other venues to do it in besides conformation. 

Bonnie's conformation, while it may not take BISS at a dog show, appears to be sound. I don't ever ask how many dog shows has this dog won, is it a champion, what do other people think of it (okay, I do ask that one....), but as the breeder, I am the person who is ultimately making the decision and is responsible for what happens from there. So rightly or wrongly, I ask myself "is this dog structurally sound?" 

Bonnie has a whole lot going for her that many dogs don't. When considering whether or not breeding her is doing a disservice to the breed, I think it's also fair to look at the otherside of the coin. Would NOT breeding her be doing a disservice to the breed? What has she got to contribute? Is she better than average, how or why?

Some decisions are tougher than others. This one wouldn't be too tough for me (I'd vote to breed her).. but the then next decision is where things get really tough... who to? <VBG>
Darla


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## Paragon

Outwest,

Relax honey, it will work out fine..... We all have BUTTERFIES!

Paragon


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I entirely agree with Paragon and Yadda. You love Bonnie's structure. Your dream was to breed her. Then do it! Do not ever regret doing something you really do not want to do...My opinion is breed her. Show him. And my opinion of people who would say what they said about showing Jazz...STUPID!! If they were not worried about him winning, this would not be an issue. And if they think he is not good enough to be shown, HEY!!! he is creating points for someone else.


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## outwest

yadda, I want to have her haplotypes done. That would really help me decide. If she was a 1:1, it wouldn't be hard to spay her.  Since she has ancestors without haplotype 1, I want to see if she doesn't have it, too. Trouble is, I keep being told to wait, wait, wait for UC Davis. Hmm.


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## CharismaticMillie

I don't at all think that there is anything wrong with you wanting to show him and not necessarily breed. But I DO think that you should not rush to neuter him after showing him. Any temperamentally sound, healthy, well constructed, GOOD FRONTED dog is needed in the poodle gene pool, even if YOU are not the one who breeds to him.

I am surprised that people would not want the extra competition. Around here, we'd be happy to have an extra dog to help make majors! Without competition, there are no majors.  When I got Tiger to show, I made no commitment to breed, and really still have not. But I do think that he can make a positive contribution to the gene pool, so I'm going to keep him intact for a while, and eventually collect from him (this means collecting sperm, Outwest, not money, he he;p) and neuter him.


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## faerie

if you think bonnie can add to the poodle world some really good attributes, but you aren't 100% certain ... wait a while.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Whose opinion of a "good front" are we to go by? The judges that put a dog up? The handlers who put their hands on a dog and declare it has a good front? Other Poodle people who have gone over a dog from stem to stern and like it? Or the people on a forum who look at photos and decide a dog does not have a good front?


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## outwest

My definition of a good front is one where the legs aren't coming down out of their necks. LOL. btw: Journey looks to have a great front end, especially for a bitch. 

I have seen a photo of a poodle with a fabulous front end from someone on this forum. Jazz' front legs come nicely under his withers and his breast bone is certainly well infront of his legs, so to me he looks better than most at THIS moment IN THE FRONT. Of course, you don't see the front end under all the hair. 

I have talked DH into taking photos for me. I'll show you, but I also know that he is a little puppy and he could suddenly get long bodied, lousy front and a goofy gait. I have seen it happen too many times to know there is nothing spectacular about any puppy. They all need to be at least 6-8 months old and even then they continue to change.  But, I chose the best I could and chose as much for personality as I did for looks. I know his mama had a wonderful body (and a silly face) and papa had a terrific gate and pretty face, but not quite as nice a body as mama did. I am looking forward to rubber bands. :alien2:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Journey does have an obviously amazing front. Thanks for noticing.


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## CharismaticMillie

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Whose opinion of a "good front" are we to go by? The judges that put a dog up? The handlers who put their hands on a dog and declare it has a good front? Other Poodle people who have gone over a dog from stem to stern and like it? Or the people on a forum who look at photos and decide a dog does not have a good front?


I cannot speak for anyone else, but I'll personally take the opinion of anyone capable of (as) objectively (as possible) recognizing any of the various aspects of a good fronted dog, as defined by basic canine structure.  

These aspects include layback, return, and length and balance of shoulder + upper arm. As well as...position/setting of the front. The front legs should be under the well layed back _withers._ Depth and breadth of chest and forechest play into this as well.

A poodle's front should not be in front of its head.  It is possible to look at photos on a forum and tell if a dog's front is properly placed. Draw your finger up the leg. On a good fronted dog, this line will behind the head and neck. Scary how many dogs have swooping rears with a front that intersects the nose! It's fun. In my research for a future bitch, I have been looking at hundreds of photos of poodles, drawing my finger up their leg.

Ultimately, once educated enough, we ourselves decide if a dog has a good front, according to our expectations and understanding of what a good front is. 

Dennis McCoy discussed in his judging notes from PCA how he is sick and tired of having no choice but to excuse poor fronts in the classes. It's unfortunately become the norm.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

*My opinion about your dilemma.*



outwest said:


> I am seriously considering spaying Bonnie even though I have finished all her testing. My reason is because I do work and my mother is with the dogs a lot. I can not ask her to take care of puppies if I should breed her. Also, my mother was freaking out because she thought Bonnie might be going into heat again (she is not- been only 4 months) and says it is not fair of me to have her deal with a female in heat with an intact male around (mind you- Jazz is all of 13 weeks old LOL).
> ________________________________________
> I feel kind of sad about spaying her.
> ________________________________________
> She is such an awesome dog. I think she has much to offer to the right lines.
> ________________________________________
> Anyway, just wanted a little sympathy I suppose. I know Bonnie's breeder did keep one out of her litter with the interesting genetics, so the blood won't be lost. Maybe Bonnie will calm down some after she is spayed. She is almost always 'on' in a sweet way.
> _____________________________________
> sigh...thanks for listening.
> She has a spay appointment for a week from now. We'll see if I back out of it.


If I am reading this correctly you have made an appointment to spay Bonnie next week. At this point are appear to be *second guessing yourself* about keeping the vet appointment and ultimately spaying Bonnie and this is making you sad.
It looks like because she has genetics than may be different from other poodles you feel *obligated* to breed her and yet you think Bonnie may be *too active* for some people.
I think you are already aware of what you want to do. She is your dog and you should *do as you please*. The obligation should be towards yourself and your family. Raising a litter is a big responsibility and also a health risk for the mother.
I know there will *always be poodles* in your future!


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## outwest

Alright, I got my husband to take a couple pics, but of course they are lousy, overexposed and make him look blue rather than black, but I will post a couple here for now since we are talking fronts rather than spaying at the moment. *grin* He doesn't have the very best front I have ever seen, but he has one. The other thing I am very happy about is his feet are tightening up.  The nice thing about looking at puppies, though, is they don't have the hair to hide the front. 

He's 3 months old today (born May 24th). I am going to twist DH's arm to take some more and try for better exposure. 
I need practice stacking those long appendages. :act-up:


































edit:
forgot- here's the width:
I want to show him. It will be fun.


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## CharismaticMillie

Outwest....He does look to have a front that is set back nicely! It is hard ever find everything we like in a front, just having some of the many aspects of a good front is a GOOD thing!  Can't wait to watch him develop. He has TONS of leg, holy canoli! No wonder he's clumsy, silly baby boy!


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## outwest

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> If I am reading this correctly you have made an appointment to spay Bonnie next week. At this point are appear to be *second guessing yourself* about keeping the vet appointment and ultimately spaying Bonnie and this is making you sad.
> It looks like because she has genetics than may be different from other poodles you feel *obligated* to breed her and yet you think Bonnie may be *too active* for some people.
> I think you are already aware of what you want to do. She is your dog and you should *do as you please*. The obligation should be towards yourself and your family. Raising a litter is a big responsibility and also a health risk for the mother.
> I know there will *always be poodles* in your future!


You are right on all accounts. How can you see it so clearly? I haven't cancelled her appointment. I know there is another littermate who is intact and will likely be bred. I do think she is too active/smart/athletic for many people. I like that about her, but I know others wouldn't be able to handle her as easily as I. I do think she has interesting genetics and those are what make her neat. There are other poodles. There will always be poodles. Jazz is a so calm and elegant, like 'look at me', which is more what a standard maybe..maybe..should be more like? I don't know. It's tough and confusing.


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## outwest

cm, he DOES have tons of leg!!! Those legs scared me a little, but he is pulling it all together now. It's been a few weeks since he tripped on a clump of grass.  I call him daddy long legs. Hopefully, he grows into those babies a little more. LOL


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## CharismaticMillie

The drive that you describe Bonnie having...to me that's a key part of the breed.


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## Sookster

outwest said:


> Jazz is a so calm and elegant, like 'look at me', which is more what a standard maybe..maybe..should be more like? I don't know. It's tough and confusing.


See, I don't agree  I think they should be like Bonnie: drivey, smart, and athletic. Despite AKC's incompetence in placing them in the non-sporting group, a standard poodle is a sporting dog first, a show dog second in my opinion. They aren't supposed to be just a pretty face. 

I would hate to see you spay Bonnie. I would be hard-pressed to stop myself from trying to find a way to get my hands on one of her pups if you do breed her. And I think the world could benefit from more spoos like Bonnie. No, they aren't for everyone, but there are people out there looking for dogs like her and having a lot of trouble finding them. I think you would be making a mistake to spay her so soon.


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## outwest

Yah, Sookster, totally/completely different dogs!!


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## outwest

CharismaticMillie said:


> The drive that you describe Bonnie having...to me that's a key part of the breed.


Yes, I think so too, but she got that from the agility lines, which are not favored in the AKC ring. Jazz isn't a dope and has sparkle, but Bonnie could be easily be trained for hunting. UKC saw it and rewarded her for it. Not so sure about Jazzy. 

Anyway, don't mean to take everyones time with my yammering. I seem to be confused about what I think is important. To me, Jazz is a gorgeous puppy I waited for and wanted. I am so excited to have him all for myself and don't mind his less intense demeanor seeing as how I have three dogs. He has plenty of spark for the ring and fetches nicely (has some drive). Jazz is easier to handle. If I don't work Bonnie, she gets kookoo. That dog reads my mind, I swear and wants to please so badly that she minds super well and is cute as a button. The breeder told me she was a very smart pup and that I would need to train her. She was right. Jazz is going to be a terrific friend. 
...there I go yammering again. 

Where is Keith's 'have it ALL' dog.  I don't think it exists. Every dog has strengths and weaknesses.

Sookster, you have a similar combo of poodles, don't you. I think I am going to love have both of them. They certainly love each other.


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## Keithsomething

outwest said:


> Yes, I think so too, but she got that from the agility lines, which are not favored in the AKC ring. Jazz isn't a dope and has sparkle, but Bonnie could be easily be trained for hunting. UKC saw it and rewarded her for it. Not so sure about Jazzy.
> 
> Anyway, don't mean to take everyones time with my yammering. I seem to be confused about what I think is important. To me, Jazz is a gorgeous puppy I waited for and wanted. I am so excited to have him all for myself and don't mind his less intense demeanor seeing as how I have three dogs. He has plenty of spark for the ring and fetches nicely (has some drive). Jazz is easier to handle. If I don't work Bonnie, she gets kookoo. That dog reads my mind, I swear and wants to please so badly that she minds super well and is cute as a button. The breeder told me she was a very smart pup and that I would need to train her. She was right. Jazz is going to be a terrific friend.
> ...there I go yammering again.
> 
> *Where is Keith's 'have it ALL' dog.  I don't think it exists. Every dog has strengths and weaknesses*.
> 
> Sookster, you have a similar combo of poodles, don't you. I think I am going to love have both of them. They certainly love each other.


...false, I have never said there was a perfect dog...but I do believe your dog should have more than a "nice temperament" and being your heart dog to breed. And idaf if anyone agrees with me or not


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> Yes, I think so too, but she got that from the agility lines, which are not favored in the AKC ring. Jazz isn't a dope and has sparkle, but Bonnie could be easily be trained for hunting. UKC saw it and rewarded her for it. Not so sure about Jazzy.
> 
> Anyway, don't mean to take everyones time with my yammering. I seem to be confused about what I think is important. To me, Jazz is a gorgeous puppy I waited for and wanted. I am so excited to have him all for myself and don't mind his less intense demeanor seeing as how I have three dogs. He has plenty of spark for the ring and fetches nicely (has some drive). Jazz is easier to handle. If I don't work Bonnie, she gets kookoo, so I work her almost every day doing tricks or obedience or running. That dog reads my mind, I swear. Bonnie is called The Bonster because she keeps me on my toes.  Jazz is going to be a terrific friend. There I go yammering again.
> 
> So, where is Keith's 'have it ALL' dog.


There are always compromises when it comes to breeding. There is no perfect poodle. What does one compromise on? 

On another note, the drive that Bonnie has is not at all uncommon in dogs that show in AKC. Most likely, these dogs have titles on both ends of their name. Within conformation lines, you will find a variety of temperaments, not everyone wants to breed for working drive, and not everyone wants to breed for chillaxin' cuddle buddies! Within performance focused breeders' lines, whether they also show in conformation or not, of course you will find a greater concentration of DRIVE. 

If you're referring to breeders who focus their structural breeding decisions on what will excel in agility, well I believe that deviating from the standard to improve a dog's level of competition in agility is no different from deviating from the standard to improve a dog's level of competition in the breed ring. I know there are breeders out there who breed what looks nothing look the breed standard in an attempt to create the perfect agility poodle. Just as there are breeders who will breed what will _win_ in the breed ring, rather than what is _correct_, thus influencing what _will_ win..period!

There are many poodles that have lots of drive, that come from performance focused lines, and that would make great AKC show dogs, but their owners simply aren't focused on that aspect of the breed, and therefore the well structured, typey, drivey dogs have not been shown, and that is OK!

We have one standard, that of a moderate dog that can run through terrain, swim, and carry a bird in its mouth.

ETA: There are different types seen. Some breeders like the older style of more robust, perhaps coarser bodies, a bit longer in the body. Newer breeders (I know I'm generalizing and that there are exceptions) often breed for the shorter backed, shorter bodied, longer legged, more fashionable looking poodles. I believe, that regardless of type, it is still possible to have _good structure _, and that is one of the most important things to me, after temperament and then health.


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## Sookster

outwest said:


> Sookster, you have a similar combo of poodles, don't you. I think I am going to love have both of them. They certainly love each other.


Well, sort of. Sookie is small, about 22 inches and from agility lines like Bonnie. She's drivey and wicked smart, but I don't think quite as high energy. I also believe she has some mini in her blood, though I don't know her pedigree to say for certain. She's not put together as well as Bonnie, having a much too low tail set and isn't as springy as I would like. Like Bonnie, she could have longer legs and she's a little long bodied to me. She has a very typey and pretty face and muzzle with jet black pigment and eyes, and is structurally sound. She has to be to move like she does, be as lightening fast as she is, and as agile as she is. But she doesn't look like what I've been conditioned to think poodles should look like. I would never have considered breeding her, but then I have no parental history on her either. 

Nova is tall and leggy and squarely built. Poodley and springy and sparkly. And super smart, but not really motivated and zero drive. She is calmer and more laid back like Jazz. Just a lover really. But she is coarsely put together. Never would have made a show dog lol. 

So yes our dogs seem to be very similar personality wise. Biggest difference is neither of mine are show or breeding quality, although I do think there need to be more poodles bred with Sookie's personality, drive, athleticism, and work ethic. It's fun to have both distinct personalities but I'm definitely partial to Sookie's (and Bonnie's) personality.


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## outwest

Keith, I didn't say you had it all. You have mentioned wanting it all, which everyone does. It wasn't a negative comment against you. 

Sookster, I am glad Jazz isn't as high powered as Bonnie. He's still a tike, so could change some, but he should be less energy according to his puppy temperament testing, but he is super friendly and outgoing, which is good.

CM, I agree that there are great dogs doing sports that are not shown conformation. I bet some of it has to do with the coat. I have already been instructed on so many things having to do with coat, it makes my head spin. The latest is that I shouldn't even let my groomer do any shaving because she might shave the head wrong or the tail wrong. I don't even know if I should shave him myself again! I am calling the 'other groomer' to ask her opinion. I am lucky to have one less than an hour away- oy.


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## 3dogs

Keep Bonnie intact for now. She is still young. I LOVE the smart, energetic poodle. It has slowly been lost & there are plenty of "Pretty dogs" gaiting around the ring. Find a hunting line or agility line that you like. It sounds a little like you are thinking of breeding Bonnie for the avg. Joe household instead of focusing on her uniqueness & the families that want those abilities. Please keep her intact right now. Smarts over beauty any day for me getting a dog, & I am sure there are plenty of households that value those qualities.
I had a "pretty" boy that was to be my show dog, no brains. My husband called him about as smart as a 15 watt lightbulb. Yup, he got his CGC but all my dogs have their CGC. I hands down prefer the smarter dog after having that "pretty boy". Both my Poodles are smart, have been training in obedience & rally classes. I have taken a break & have only been conditioning them for the grooming competition ring. I wouldn't give up their smarts or activity for anything, might be "ugly" but that is just fine with me.


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## BorderKelpie

Bonnie sounds like a complete package to me. She's smart, drivey, playful, sweet and drop dead gorgeous. If time, money and circumstances were different for me, I'd be sending you a deposit for one of her pups now. lol 

She's you dog and you have to live with the decisions you make, but I'm voting for you to keep her intact.  

(Seriously, do you need a kidney or something? I LOVE Bonnie - I want to put a tracking title on one of her babes. lol)


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## outwest

Borderkelpie, you are so sweet. I think she is gorgeous, but she is 22 inches tall with slightly shorter legs (which is why she is so darned agile, I am sure). 

I made the mistake of mentioning the possible spay to her breeder when asking a question about a handler or not for Jazz. She went ballistic and told me she will take Jazz for the duration of any heat cycle, no charge, if I don't have anywhere to take him. My dogs are spoiled and I can't see him with her pack, but it did give me pause that things could be worked out. I just need to work on my husband and mother. I don't know why they are being so adamant. They think we will be 'stuck' with a bunch of puppies we can't sell. Her breeder wants me to haplotype her next month.  She is planning on doing a bunch of dogs, so hopefully the cost is reduced. 

By the way, my sister in laws poodle (from same breeder) has a sibling now in the sea world dog show! He is wicked smart (but a Moyen) and we all want to go down there and see him preform. 

If I do breed Bonnie, I have NO idea what kind of dog to use. Should it be a working type poodle also? Should it be a dog to move more towards the correct body type? 

I am leaning towards no spay. I need to have a heart to heart with my mother. I have to go to work. She is home with the dogs several days a week. I have both Jazz and Bonnie in training classes again so that they are well trained for her. I could hire someone to come stay with the puppies while I was at work. I don't know what they'd do? Stare at them? LOL

Anyway, any breeding is still a ways away if ever, but I do feel like I don't want to spay her.


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## CharismaticMillie

You need to stop thinking of Bonnie is a "working type" poodle. Once you get some performance titles on her, I might stop bugging you about that. But for now, she is an average sized, moderate bitch with plenty of drive and her own set of strengths and weaknesses structurally. 

Instead, you need to think about your potential breeding goals. There is only one standard. There is not a separate standard for working poodles and show poodles. A correct poodle can work and show. In your mind, what is your ideal standard poodle? Compare her to the standard. What needs improvement? What are her strong points? And then, there is type. Would you like to ultimately breed a more refined, fashionable type, or do you prefer more bone, muscle, and longer bodied, etc? She is nice and refined in my opinion without being overdone. I would not personally focus on refining her any more.

If it were me (and I'm no expert, but I'm going through the same mental process with my dog), I'd really focus on what kind of temperament I want to produce do a lot of research on the temperaments in different lines, etc. I'd probably avoid breeding her to a super drivey dog unless you plan to breed performance prospects and find dedicated performance homes. You might want a dog with an average amount of drive. You don't want to lose her wonderful drive though, so I'd avoid lazy joe personalities, too.

Health-wise, she's not a nice diverse pedigree. Are you going to outcross her again? Or are you comfortable, since she already has low COI, finding a dog that has some common ancestry and perhaps doubling up on a dog who you really like and who'se health you have researched heavily?

Structure and conformation wise, I'd be happy with her substance, bone and muscle. I'd look for a dog with similar substance, but not too heavy in bone, a correct front, maybe a tad bit leggier (but don't over-do it), and I'd avoid breeding to a dog that is straight in the rear, but I also wouldn't breed her to a dog that is overdone in the rear, as I'd fear puppies that lack balance in front/rear. I'd want a nice, high tailset with a straight tail.


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## CharismaticMillie

outwest said:


> The latest is that I shouldn't even let my groomer do any shaving because she might shave the head wrong or the tail wrong. I don't even know if I should shave him myself again! I am calling the 'other groomer' to ask her opinion. I am lucky to have one less than an hour away- oy.


Yep, NEVER let a pet groomer anywhere near your boy, unless they have shown poodles themselves before. I've seen it happen over and over again...

When you have a show dog, it really is essential to learn to do the basics (bath, dry, clip, brush) yourself. If I can do basic maintenance bathing, drying, and clipping on my show dog, I have NO doubt you can too!


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## peppersb

outwest said:


> If I do breed Bonnie, I have NO idea what kind of dog to use. ...
> Anyway, any breeding is still a ways away if ever, but I do feel like I don't want to spay her.


Don't spay her. Please don't spay her!

Ever since I saw Bonnie and heard about your interest in possibly breeding her, I've been hoping that you'd find a nice SMALL stud. The world needs more small spoos!!! Of course you should do what you want. But my vote is for some nice well bred small spoos!


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## zyrcona

outwest said:


> If I do breed Bonnie, I have NO idea what kind of dog to use. Should it be a working type poodle also? Should it be a dog to move more towards the correct body type?


Breed her to a dog you like who fits with what you want to produce. If you want to go the diversity route, choose a low Wycliffe stud, either from a similar or different line. If you want to breed for conformation, choose a stud who complements her. If you want to concentrate more on 'working' temperament and not bother with conformation, choose a stud with working qualifications.


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## outwest

Well. since Bonnie is currently in an adv. obedience course, I told my DH and mom I couldn't spay her in the middle of the course because she would miss a couple of classes.  It will buy me some time with them. My mother thinks I should do adv. obedience or other work in AKC preformance events with her and show Jazz in conformation at the same time, too. At least I have put off the spaying for a bit.

CM, I would want to improve her conformation (the front end and leg length) and retain her drive, but not produce dogs any more active than she already is, so I would think I would need a calmer type for her. I agree, though, not a lazy joe. Jazzy is really leggy, maybe too leggy for her. He is a totally different breeding than she is (not a ton in common, but a little in common). He would be an easy possibility. No matter who Bonnie is bred to, she will most likely produce a few smaller standard poodles. 

I found some conformation classes in a city near me. I may take Jazz there. I can do UKC myself no sweat. I am not so sure I can do AKC here myself. It's very serious. I need to contact the handler recommended to me. I can do UKC with him and AKC. I also need to contact the show groomer about what to do in the next few months. I can do basic maintenance. 

sheesh. Lots to do. How do people with a bunch of dogs handle it?!


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## BorderKelpie

I know it's hard to be away from your poodles, but could her breeder babysit her while she's in? Also, some breeders will whelp the litter for you. Again, though, Bonnie would not be home with you in that case. But, if anything might go wrong, she be with an xperienced breeder. Not that anything will go wrong, and not that you couldn't handle whatever might come up, but you may have other options.


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## outwest

Yes, her breeder already said she would do that, but she is my dog. Not sure I'd want to ship her off for several weeks.


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## BorderKelpie

THat's understandable. 
Maybe you could just ship you hubby and mom off to her for a couple of weeks. 


JK!


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## petitpie

BK, lol That was funny!


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## cavon

OW - I know that I am jumping into this conversation late, but I have been thinking back to when you first introduced us to Bonnie. I believe - and I know I'll be quickly corrected if I am wrong - that you bought her as a pet. Then you thought that you might like to try showing her, but you weren't sure if you could do that. I seem to recall your asking advice about grooming for UKC competition and moving forward with that project with great success as you achieved her Grand Championship in short order!

You have been debating having her spayed since before she was 6 months old and going back and forth about it – which of course is your absolute right, it just strikes me that your initial reason for delaying the spay was not for the purpose of breeding, but rather to ensure that she would have all of the hormones that she required to develop fully.

Again, I could be wrong, but I think I remember that your elderly mother wasn’t too keen on the idea of a second spoo because she thought it would be too much for her to handle on the days that you worked. I’m glad that she has come around and that you were able to get your black puppy – who is very handsome, by the way, and you are talking about showing him AKC. Moving forward with that will require a huge time commitment and maintenance of coat, but I know that you know that.

You have said that you feel that the black puppy is the stronger of the two poodles, from a conformation perspective, but that you are thinking of neutering him. Also, you have said that Bonnie’s breeder kept a pup from her litter – presumably the #1 pick of the litter and plans to breed it. You have spoken a lot about Bonnie’s faults and her high spirited temperament, do you really feel that her strong points would add something to the breed that the pup her breeder kept would not? 

Is there a market for a first time litter from a new breeder in your area? I haven’t looked in detail at Bonnie’s pedigree, but given her color, I think she would produce pups of colors that are readily available from more experienced, established breeders.

There is no rule saying that two pups from the same litter can’t be bred (no, I don’t mean to each other, just in case anyone is wondering), but I do wonder what your end goal is on this. Are you planning on starting a breeding program of your own or do you simply want to have the experience of producing a litter of your own – I recall that you were involved in other breeds, boxers and whippets, I think, but I don’t know if you bred them. If in fact, you are planning on entering the breeding world, why would you consider altering the black puppy before you even know how it will mature? Wouldn’t this potentially limit your future plans? 

Additionally, are you certain that your mother is up to caring for a litter of puppies when you are at work, or whelping a litter for that matter? I bring this up because in the last two weeks, I have heard of a litter of greyhounds that came 3 days early; fortunately the breeder was on hand, and a litter of American bulldogs that came a week early when no one was there to help the first time mother deliver.

I’m not criticizing or trying to stir the pot - and I am very sure that there will be many who will not hesitate to tell me that I should mind my own business - I guess I am just curious as you seem to have been going back and forth on this for so long and I wonder if you haven’t just been caught up in the world of breeding by reading about others experiences in this area on the forum. It really hasn’t been that long since Bonnie was 6 months old when you think about it.


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## peppersb

A long and interesting post from Cavon is a good reminder of the seriousness of breeding and the need to exercise restraint. I for one will not tell Cavon that she should mind her own business. The whole idea of a forum like this is that people are and should be free to share their opinions. So thanks to Cavon for sharing!

I think that one of the big differences between Outwest and almost anyone else is that she has been sharing all of her doubts, questions, excitement, hopes and dreams with us from the very beginning. Most breeders go through a decision making process, but not quite so publically! It has been interesting to follow all of the factors that are going into Outwest's decision, from a public conformation critique, to thoughts about studs, to her mother's need for peace and quiet, and a whole lot more. A big THANK YOU to Outwest for letting us in on your decision making process. 

I for one, love seeing someone like OW breed once or twice. She is fully educating herself, getting her dog tested, and getting support from a mentor. I love the idea that she has just one (or two) dogs that seem to be of breeding quality and that they are living the luxurious life of a pet that will stay in the same home for its entire life. Cavon raised a good point about the market for Bonnie's puppies. I personally would love to buy from a breeder like Outwest, but I have no idea how easy or hard it will be for OW to find good homes for all of her pups. I know that she has quite a fan club here, but don't know if that (or any other available ways of finding homes) will pan out or not. An important consideration, to be sure. 

A big thank you to Outwest and to Cavon for an interesting discussion. All the best to Outwest as she ponders all of the pros and cons and decides what steps to take next.


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## Eclipse

Millie
I agree with your prior post 100% that high drive is not at all uncommon among AKC bred dogs (in my case I am specifically talking about Standards as I do not have experience with Minis and Toys.) Many people that show in conformation do not have the time or desire to do performance work but that doesn't mean that the dogs are not capable. And as you pointed out, the same is true in reverse. Many performance people have dogs that could certainly finish in the breed ring, but are just not interested in going that route. And as you also noted, there are dogs with letters at both ends of their name.... My girl is 100% AKC bred from confirmation show lines - in her 4 generation pedigree there are only 3 dogs that are not AKC breed champions. She is an elegant refined bitch at 21.5 inches. Her structure is in alignment with AKC standards. She does not have the short legs, stocky build, etc. that some people keep referring to regarding performance dogs as "working stock" however, she is totally a performance dog. I don't really understand the need some people seem to have to keep separating the two?? You absolutely can breed a dog that aligns with the AKC breed standard that can be very competitive in performance. My girl and I are currently competing in upper levels in multiple venues (AKC obedience, rally and agility, CPE agility, APDT rally, CDSP obedience, etc.). She also has a herding instinct certificate, has lure coursed multiple times and has a Versatility Certificate Excellent from Versatility In Poodles. No lack of drive whatsoever. The only reason she was not a conformation title candidate in her litter was due to the fact she has a very gay tail, the only one in the litter. Her tail set is perfect. Would I have preferred the tail carriage be correct, absolutely. However, I never intended to show in conformation or breed and she tested out highest in the litter for performance so she was my pick. I love her to death and have never regretted my choice . She has been a joy (and a challenge sometimes LOL) to train and show.

Outwest: Please don't take offense to this, but you are always saying how smart Bonnie is, how athletic she is, how she could easily be trained to hunt, etc. It is very easy to say such things, yet I don't see that she currently has any performance titles of any kind. You say you are in an advanced obedience class. What are you training? Are you getting ready to start competing for titles? If so, in just obedience or in other venues? If you are on the fence about breeding her due to her conformation, why not train her for performance and get in the ring and compete to see how she stacks up against the perfect score for each title in each venue and against other working teams in the obedience ring, agility ring, etc. If she does well in multiple venues, then you will have more of an incentive to breed her since she will have proved she has more than one way to contribute to the breed.

Eclipse and Fallon
ARCHEX, U-CD Calisun Night Flight, CDX, RE, NA, NF, OAJ, CDX-C, RL1X, RL2x2, RL3X, CL1, CL2, CL3-F, 
CL3-S, HIC, CGC, VCX


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## bookwormjane

I know I'm late to chime in, but there's no rush to do anything right now. You seem so conflicted. I wouldn't spay Bonnie just yet. Do some showing or other performance. Feel it out to see if there will be any puppy buyers. Lastly, consider how you will feel about not keeping at least one of them. Are you ready for a three or four dog house?

As for entering Jazz without breeding plans; well that's a stupid comment. There needs to be enough dogs in any competition to make points and majors. I know with greyhounds, we have a dickens of a time in the northwest finding competition to get a major. So we are encouraging folks to enter whether they breed or not.

Just my two cents.


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## outwest

Excellent points from everyone. Thank you for being honest. As it stands, if it was only me- I would breed her. But, it isn't only me. I have my husband, my mother and even my sister in law harping on me to spay her and how unfair it is to everyone else for me to consider this. My sister in law has refused to help (asked her a couple days ago- flat out told me 'no, way, spay her'). 

I did used to breed and show Boxers and I enjoyed it a lot. My husband didn't. Took too much time, he said. 

Anyway, I have gone back and forth, back and forth because of all those things. Cavon, I bought Bonnie for a pet, yes. She is a pet and will always be one. 

I will show Jazz if it works out with him to do so, but might wait until after UKC shows to do it. No plans to neuter for him yet. 

I have been public with this. It isn't anything anyone else hasn't thought of, I have only been vocal because I don't get any support for this hobby at all at home. Breeder is as supportive as can be for a busy person hours away from me. You guys are my poodle friends because I don't have poodle friends in real life, so that's why I bend your ears. If I had poodle friends in real life, I wouldn't be yapping on here. 

She is scheduled to go for her spay Friday. Husband, sister in law and mother are twisting my arm until it is going to break.


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## mom24doggies

It's ultimately your decision OW....but I definitely vote no spay.  At least not now. 

Good luck with making your decision! That has to be a tough place to be in.


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## peppersb

outwest said:


> I have been public with this. It isn't anything anyone else hasn't thought of, I have only been vocal because I don't get any support for this hobby at all at home. Breeder is as supportive as can be for a busy person hours away from me. You guys are my poodle friends because I don't have poodle friends in real life, so that's why I bend your ears. If I had poodle friends in real life, I wouldn't be yapping on here.
> 
> She is scheduled to go for her spay Friday. Husband, sister in law and mother are twisting my arm until it is going to break.


Oh, Outwest. This makes me so sad. I know how much you want to breed your girl. And most of us on PF would just love to hear all about it--every detail. I knew that your mother was not happy about it. But your idea of hiring someone to help out sounded good.... But hubby and SIL are also on the no breeding bandwagon? How sad. I am so sorry. Managing two intact animals and having a litter of puppies while you are working almost full time is starting to sound pretty unrealistic if you don't have support at home. 

One of the costs of having real people in your life is that they have real opinions. Hope that you (and they) can create/maintain love and harmony at home in the midst of this strong difference of opinion.

With a very big tear in my eye, I vote for spay (not that my vote matters). Real people in your life are more important than puppies.

Thanks so much for sharing.


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## Sookster

Even with the pressure from your family to spay, not spaying doesn't necessarily equal breeding. I know people who keep bitches intact for several years, weighing the options of breeding or not, and ultimately decide to spay the dog. A heat cycle twice a year isn't all that big of a deal, especially if you've already got a plan in mind for getting her out of your house for that period of time. 

I guess I say this coming from an organization with a very large breeding program, where all of the breeding stock are in host homes. We have *pet owners*, not breeders, who host these dogs. Who put up with twice a year heat cycles and don't have any problem doing so. And that's for the entire breeding life of the animal. By people who are far less knowledgable than you are. I think that too much emphasis is being placed on this spaying question. If you aren't ready to spay her, then don't. Just because you choose not to spay now doesn't mean you have made up your mind to breed. It just means you are giving yourself some more time to think. You can always choose to spay later; you'll never be able to choose to undo it.


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## zyrcona

Outwest: Please ask your vet about alternative, *reversible *options to spaying. Please ask about GNRH agonists and hormonal contraceptives. Alternative ways to prevent a bitch from cycling other than spaying do exist. Whilst I do not normally agree with using hormones and drugs on animals to control their biological urges, I think in this case it might be appropriate.

If you let your family dictate to you what you do with your dog, you could end up resenting your family years later for spoiling your dreams. You have a right to your own interests and pursuits, even within your family, and whilst you do need to respect their concerns and try to work around them and find solutions to everyone's benefit, they need to respect your choices also. I think you will be doing yourself and your ambitions a grave disservice if you cave in to them without trying alternatives first.

http://www.ccvet.com/pdf/miboleroneandovuplant-1.pdf

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...flG7Gx&sig=AHIEtbQI0diOv9VWZDAQBCdRvTltMmar3g


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## cavon

While I agree that the decision to spay or not to spay is OW's decision alone, so are the responsibilities that come along with breeding.

It appears that OW feels that in order to be able to breed Bonnie she would have to enlist the aid of her family members and I don't think that it is either fair to expect them to help or to be upset that they might not be interested. They are entitled to their own decisions, just as OW is entitled to hers. In my opinion, her immediate family, those that live in the same house as her, are absolutely entitled to have an opinion. More dogs and puppies will have an effect on every person living under their roof.

The decision becomes - and should have always been in my opinion - can I do this on my own without expecting others in my family to participate in my plan, or alternatively, am I willing and able to hire whatever help I might need to be successful with this endeavour. This is her potential project and therefore her responsibility as well, both financially and from a time and effort perspective.

This is an individual dream, not a family dream, this is quite apparent now and has been all along based on OW's posts quite honestly. Even the purchase of a second family pet was OW's personal desire, not really that of her family. It is quite fortunate that her elderly mother has come to love little Jazz and is willing to take care of him when OW is working.


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## zyrcona

cavon said:


> While I agree that the decision to spay or not to spay is OW's decision alone, so are the responsibilities that come along with breeding.


I don't think anyone has said thus far that Outwest should necessarily breed from Bonnie. My impression is that Outwest is not sure at the moment whether to breed Bonnie at some later point. My point is, this decision does not need to be made now based on family conflict, and doing so may damage family relationships in the long run. The decision to spay (or to breed) can be made later. The situation may change in the future. There are alternatives that can be used as a stopgap in the meantime and should be considered, especially as it seems clear to me that Outwest is not at all sure of the decision to spay. It's a bit like a married woman using the logic, 'My husband doesn't want to have children, and children wouldn't be convenient in my life right now, so I might as well have a hysterectomy.' Circumstances could change, and if they do, a drastic, irreversible decision could end up being regretted sorely.


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## cavon

zyrcona said:


> I don't think anyone has said thus far that Outwest should necessarily breed from Bonnie. My impression is that Outwest is not sure at the moment whether to breed Bonnie at some later point. My point is, this decision does not need to be made now based on family conflict, and doing so may damage family relationships in the long run.


I disagree with your first statement, Zyrcona. In this thread and in others there has been plenty of encouragement, outcries and requests that Bonnie be bred, including offers of potential studs while OW struggles to make her decision. Again, let's recall that this girl was not purchased for the purpose of breeding by OW's own admission, this is an idea that arose later as Bonnie matured. While I absolutely do not feel that there is anything wrong with that, I do feel that with the decision to breed or keep her intact, comes all of the associated responsibility. 

Researcing alternatives to spaying until later is potentially a fine suggestion if OW is interested in investigating that route. 

I agree that OW does not seem to be sure whether or not to breed her; however, it is also my impression that a lot of her indecision is arising from the fact that she appears to want her family to bear a pretty large part of the responsibility related to breeding her and the indecision seems primarily based on their reluctance to do so. I find that in posts where she speaks of her relatives reluctance or definite refusal to assist, they have been somewhat vilified.

I look at it like this; if I purchased my dog and then expected someone else to take him for a walk every day and I became angered or disappointed with them when they refused, I feel that would be inappropriate of me.

Deciding to breed is a complicated, difficult decision from any standpoint and I in no way consider myself extremely, or even very knowledgeable in this arena, but from a common sense perspective, if only one person in a household is interested in this plan and this person does not feel that it can be accomplished without the assistance and support of every person within the household and even some outside of the household, it becomes that much more difficult and not really viable, in my opinion. As I said, I am only looking at this from a common sense, devil's advocate perspective and stating my opinion, which all are free to disagree with or ignore if they choose to do so, BUT I feel that if people look at this situation without picturing pretty Bonnie in their mind's eye, the points that I have raised are valid and deserve consideration. 

Aside from breeding Bonnie, OW has raised concerns regarding having two intact poodles in the house when Jazz matures and based on the current situation in that household, a large part of the responsibility of keeping the two apart would fall on her elderly mother when OW and her husband are out at work. Additionally, OW showed some displeasure with the process of Bonnie going through a cycle, so unless the alternatives to spaying her eliminate her cycles, that is a twice a year (usually) event that will also have to be managed until a decision has been finalized and some action taken.

This is not simply a spay/not to spay as it relates to potential future breeding dilema in my opinion.


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## faerie

well said, cavon.


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## outwest

Cavon, I don't expect anyone to take responsibility for my pets but me. If I was living in my mothers house it might be different than her living in my house. Still, you are right that living in the house does mean they absolutely do have a right to an opinion that needs to be listened to. Yes, humans that I love are more important than my dogs. 

Dogs are not like cats. Cats do fine with people working and dogs can do okay, but do better with humans around. I love my dogs and don't want them living in the backyard peering in the window. I did not get a new puppy without making sure everyone was comfortable with it and on board. Thank goodness my mother loves Jazz. She's even been taking him on little walks up and down the street during the day for fun. He is playful and of a calmer demeanor than Bonnie. He minds so well she doesn't have issues with him. Bonnie is well trained and mindful. Echo is a blob.  She draws the line at puppies and doesn't like the dog in heat issues. 

I cancelled the spay. I realized the only reason I made the appointment was because of pressure from all sides. Yes, everyone gets a say in this, but I realized I get a say, too! My excuse was she is in the middle of training course. She is due to come in heat in a few months. By that time, I will have her haplotypes (planning on sending next month- finally!). I won't breed her without families support and I may NEVER get that. 

Sookster is right that not spaying her does not mean breeding her. I have mixed feeling with breeding her from a purely structural standpoint, but I have to say there are a hell of a lot worse "specimens" being bred than my pretty girl. I have no problem sending Jazz off during a heat or hiring a helper during the day for my mother, but I can't do either of those things without a consensus in the house, which I do not have. The ONLY support I have is the breeders and my vet who thinks she is awesome and expressed sadness with the spay (he called me a few days ago to double check!). Neither of them carry any weight around here. 

Obviously, I want to have puppies. That's clear from everything I have ever written. Sometimes, I wish it was only me. 

edit: Zyrcona! THANK YOU! I had no idea such things existed. I will be calling to find out more about those things next week!


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## flyingpoodle

Well, I'm late to this party, but wanted to get in on the fun.

OW, my opinion is that just because Bonnie has a sibling being bred does not mean her particular genes are being passed along. Her bloodlines on paper are, but genetics are more complicated than that. 

I'm glad you're waiting to spay her, you'll feel more settled whatever the future holds for you all.


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## CT Girl

I am so glad you are keeping your options open. You are conflicted at this point and I think you would regret it. I like the idea of showing Bonnie in AKC. I think you might be pleasantly surprised on how well she does and that may make your decision easier.


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## outwest

She has many great poodle attributes, but she is longer in the loin and short legged in the front for AKC plus she is smaller. I think she is a beautiful, compact girl, but have never thought she would cut it in AKC here from the types of poodles I see there. I have been to many shows. She'd stick out.  Jazz may do okay, but his tail now has a little curl in it - damn. It just became noticeable in the last couple weeks. It's a cute tail and passable, but could get worse! Time will tell. 

In the mean time, I have found out about the injections. Mulling those over right now.


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## mom24doggies

outwest said:


> ... Jazz may do okay, but his tail now has a little curl in it - damn. It just became noticeable in the last couple weeks. It's a cute tail and passable, but could get worse! Time will tell.
> 
> In the mean time, I have found out about the injections. Mulling those over right now.


 I have yet to see a straight poodle tail...seriously, some of the prettiest poodles I've seen have a curve in their tail. I wouldn't worry about it. Jazz is shaping up to be a beautiful dog, no one is going to even notice his tail lol! Unless it starts touching his back, which I doubt it will.


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## outwest

I posted a video of poodles running amok in the picture section and you can see what Jazzy's tail looks like.  Bonnie's tail is really bad, but Jazz and Bonnie, though from the same breeder, have different backgrounds, so the tail Bonnie has isn't the tail Jazz will have.


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## zyrcona

Anatomically it seems to be extremely difficult to get a correct tailset with a straight tail. You're asking for the dog's spine to bend ninety degrees and stay dead straight. Ninety degree angles aren't something nature does easily -- curls and curves and circles, yes. In GB where poodles all have whole tails, most of them have scimitar tails in the tilted back set, or the upright set with a fishing rod curve, or curled gay tails in a hook or that even loop over down the side of the back. Usually the straighter tails are the ones on dogs from old lines, with low tailsets and carriage.

I have heard from some breeders that many show breeders disguise the true extent of how curly their dogs' tails are by cutting a tendon in the dog's tail. I don't know how accurate or widespread it is, but some dogs do seem to have weird floppy tails that seem to lack normal coordination.


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## Paragon

Zyrcona,

It has been done with terriers forever. Nasty thing, done on the grooming table. Old timers used to pull the tendon to remove the last bit of tendon when docking Poodle pups. I have seen it, and had it explained to me. I don't think I could do this to my pup!

Paragon


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## BorderKelpie

Oh my! That's awful! 

As far as I'm concerned, my dogs have the perfect tails - they wag like mad when they see me - that's good enough for me.  Of course, I'm not showing my guys, either. 

Shoot, I need to get a video of Dante (German ******) wagging his tail. He gets so carried away and it's so long, he hits himself in the sides with it. I believe my next poodle will be undocked.


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## zyrcona

To be honest, I find this sort of hook shape looks more balanced on a full-tailed dog:










It's possible to trim it into a sort of ball shape, rather than trimming a scimitar tail to look like a banana.


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## zyrcona

Scimitar tail trimmed to look like a banana.


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## outwest

Both Bonnie and Jazz have great tail sets. That isn't the issue. Bonnie's is stick straight for four inches and then it makes a dramatic turn. It doesn't touch her back, though. If you feel her tail it suddenly become narrower right where the bend starts. If I cared, I could have it docked to be straight, but I don't care.  Jazz' is a Scimitar tail, but with a great tail set so the curve stays up in the air. When I feel his tail is doesn't have the difference in diameter like Bonnie's does so, fingers crossed, it won't ever touch his back, either. It was perfectly straight until almost 3 months old, so anything could happen still. His Dad had a nice straight tail, but for all I know he had a bit of tail surgery (his sire is from a heavy AKC show line). Mom had a curl, but not too much of one.


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## CT Girl

With all the things to worry about with breeding tail set ranks pretty low with me. I hate a scrawny chest and a poor mover. One of the most telling signs of functional conformation to me is how the dog moves. I have people comment on Swizzle's movement all the time. I get a kick out of the extra prance in his step when he knows he has done well in class.


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## CharismaticMillie

I personally really do not like a low tail set but a slight curve to a tail doesn't bother me one bit!  And while I really also do not care for a gay tail at all, I probably wouldn't ever let that be a deciding factor in whether or not a dog is breeding quality, all else being of quality.


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## outwest

I love the stick straight tails, but alas I won't have a dog with one in the near future.  If Jazzy keeps his tail as it is and it doesn't get worse, it will be a fine tail. He waves it around so cute.


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## Paragon

Outwest,

All dogs have a fault! The breed standard of perfection will not happen in any one dog.... If I have to choose a fault it would be tail carriage. This is different than set. Set is the position the tail comes off from the spine and hip. The carriage is the shape the tail is carried ie: gay, sickle, Strait, curved...

A girl sent me this photo of a Poodle with a perfectly strait tail with good set. I crack up everytime I see it! Compare that to the look of my girl with the slightly curved tail. Which looks more natural? Both pups are good examples, by the way.... 

If you think of where the Poodle was once docked, you can understand why tails were straiter overall then. We now dock longer. The point where the tail narrows is where it used to be done! Bonnie would have had a perfectly strait tail....

Paragon


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## zyrcona

Paragon said:


> All dogs have a fault! The breed standard of perfection will not happen in any one dog.... If I have to choose a fault it would be tail carriage. This is different than set. Set is the position the tail comes off from the spine and hip. The carriage is the shape the tail is carried ie: gay, sickle, Strait, curved...


Probably an idiot question, but is there training or something involved to get a dog to stand with its tail held upright like in the pictures you posted, or are some dogs just born doing that? Both my dogs (the ones in the pictures I posted) carry their tails upright, vertically where the root joins the dog's back (hooked or scimitar-shaped) when they are in exploring mode, but not while doing other things. At all other times their tails are not held so high. When they are standing around relaxed their tails are usually held horizontal or hanging down, and when they are running their tails flail behind them. The dog at the top has a slight stoop in her topline before her tail, which I consider an incorrect tailset, and the one at the bottom so far has a completely straight back up to his tail, which I would consider to be better.

The puppy with the very straight tail makes me think of these


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## CharismaticMillie

Zyrcona, there is training involved in getting a dog to stand with tail fully erect/at full staff, but I don't know if you can train them to hold it straight rather than carrying over.


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## zyrcona

CharismaticMillie said:


> Zyrcona, there is training involved in getting a dog to stand with tail fully erect/at full staff, but I don't know if you can train them to hold it straight rather than carrying over.


Yes, I mean this kind of thing:










The dog in the picture can hold her tail in the blue position, but while standing in the position in the photograph, won't, and prefers to hold it in the position shown. So if I wanted to, I could train her to hold her tail upright in the blue positon?


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## CharismaticMillie

zyrcona said:


> Yes, I mean this kind of thing:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The dog in the picture can hold her tail in the blue position, but while standing in the position in the photograph, won't, and prefers to hold it in the position shown. So if I wanted to, I could train her to hold her tail upright in the blue positon?


Oh yes, absolutely! As long as she is physically capable of it, that is.  T's cue in the ring to hold his tail up high was a light tap with your fingers on the back/base of his tail. His handler taught him this. 

Take this photo for example. Just in my backyard, I wanted to get a nice photo of him. So, I "set him up" and tapped his tail so he would hold it high. I told him to stay and I backed up and took the photo. He was not holding his tail that high until I told him to.  He often does hold it that high naturally when he is at play, but he was not excited or aroused mentally, he was just standing as he was told.


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## Paragon

Zyrcona,

I am told the Black pup with the poker strait tail holds it that way, most always..... The girl has a curve to her tail. It is not strait. She holds it up most always unless she is unsure of something.

My big dog Princie is lazy, and laid back. He will hold his well set tail at 10 O'clock unless we say "Tail", and he will bring it up to 12. When hunting, my boy holds his tail parallel to the ground.

Paragon


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## outwest

Jazz' tail is almost always up no matter what he is doing, even when just meandering around. That's good. 

Paragon, that full stick straight tail is a hoot! His set looks like it is coming right out of his back, too (probably the photo angle). I do love a stick straight tail, but maybe what I love is a stick straight docked tail.  Jazz' is cute to me with the gentle curve. I thought his was stick straight when I got him and then it developed the gentle curve over a month or so. I hesitate to predict what will happen to it. The poodles running amok video shows it clearly.

Yes, you can train them to hold the tail up temporarily.


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