# Toy vs Mini Myth and Reality?



## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

We are trying to choose between the toy or mini for our first poodle pup. So I've gathered all the pros and cons between the two to help us in our decision making. I'm not sure if the data I have is accurate or whether I miss some important point. I hope to learn more from PF members who have actual experience owning this breed.

Mini's Pros:

More sturdy, less risk of physical injury (stepped on, fall off furniture, etc...)
Less hereditary health risk
Less expensive
More available

Mini's Cons:

Less portable (bigger to carry when going to places, can't bring as carry on on airplane?)
More hair = more dander = more allergen
More active

Toy's Pros:

More portable
Less active
Less hair = less allergen

Toy's Cons

Fragile
More Yappy
More hereditary health risk
More expensive (50-100% more)


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Before reading this, I always thought that minis were more rare and were the same price as toys, though I haven’t ever looked for one myself. It always seems that people have a very hard time finding minis. 

The biggest con for me with minis is that some of them are extremely active and I have also heard that some lines have weird temperaments. I would be very careful getting a mini from well tempered lines. 

The biggest con for me with toys is that they are not often completely potty trained and most people with minis keep potty pads in their house. That is a dealbreaker for me but many people don’t mind. They are also too fragile for me and have so many health problems.


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## PJR202 (Aug 10, 2018)

PuppyDream said:


> We are trying to choose between the toy or mini for our first poodle pup. So I've gathered all the pros and cons between the two to help us in our decision making. I'm not sure if the data I have is accurate or whether I miss some important point. I hope to learn more from PF members who have actual experience owning this breed.
> 
> Mini's Pros:
> 
> ...


I don't really know anything about Mini's, but our toy is extremely active. He's either asleep or going 100% for the most part. There's not much in between. He's not really yippy, I don't think. He barks at the door, but otherwise he's eerily quiet, even when playing aggressively. Prices probaby vary but we got outs from a breeder for $550.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

There should not be any price difference between any size of poodle. And I am a recent shopper, in helping friends find dogs. You should expect to pay $2,000 - $3,000 for a show breeder puppy from health tested parents with a show record. 

Also, minis are definitely less available than toys. Check out www.poodlebreeders.com to get an idea of good breeders of both sizes, as a starting point. 

As for a toy being less allergenic, there is absolutely no difference in the sizes when it comes to allergies. I am deathly allergic to a rat, but not to a standard poodle. You either are allergic or not, imho. 

I would agree with all of your other points, except not all toys are yappy. 








PuppyDream said:


> We are trying to choose between the toy or mini for our first poodle pup. So I've gathered all the pros and cons between the two to help us in our decision making. I'm not sure if the data I have is accurate or whether I miss some important point. I hope to learn more from PF members who have actual experience owning this breed.
> 
> Mini's Pros:
> 
> ...


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

I have always thought minis are harder to find. I know it was like finding a unicorn before I got milo.

I think risk of injury is very real for both when it comes to high surfaces. My mini jumps up and down the couch, but I won’t let him jump from my quite high bed to my laminate flooring due to slippage. My mini eliminates outside in all weather conditions. I am not sure if i could deal with an indoor potty patch, which is why I won’t get a cat either. 

Minis are the most active amongst the 3, but I find mine is “just nice”. Active with an off switch. You can train for this. My mini hasn’t had a decent walk in weeks since it’s been stupid cold. Just lots of indoor training and brain games and he isn’t destroying my house, never has actually.

My mini is 13” at the withers, he travels under the cabin seat just fine. He is quite a pro when it comes to flying, he has flown at least a dozen times.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

My 2 toys are 100% housebroken and reliable, except when sick, like any other dog. They go outside exclusively. No pipi pads, I have allergies amd can’t tolerate the smell.

In my case, the bigger the dog, the more allergens it carries and the more allergies I will have. I do have mild allergies to my toys, but they don’t trigger asthma. I don’t think I could live with a standard poodle.

As for health problems, I think if you buy from a good breeder, it shouldn’t be a problem. I hear a lot of people complaining about patella issues with their toys, but none of my two have those problems. My female has a sensitive stomach and seems to be more prone to mild problems, but other than that, nothing.

I’ve had lots of toys, a few yorkies, a chihuahua and toy poodles and I find that the poodles are really sensitive compared to the others. You can’t raise your voice to them, or show anger, really. It’s too much for them.

Also, you need to be careful with their long legs. But other than that, they’re sturdy dogs.

Regarding barking, my females barks, my male doesn’t, or very little (and only because SHE does, lol).


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Chinchillafuzzy, PJR202, ZooeysMom, and Asuk. 

From my own experience, toys seem more rare because each litter's size is smaller (1-2 puppies) whereas minis's is bigger (4+ puppies).

I found toys' price to be on average 50% higher than minis'. If the toy pup is not local, then you would also need to factor in the cost to travel to pick the pup up (airplane ticket for you and the pup (about $100 for pup), hotel, car rental, etc...). Therefore, if you buy a toy pup from long distance, it can end up costing you twice as much as getting a mini locally.

It's good to hear that some minis can travel as carry-on as well. I thought it might be too big to fit under the seat. We would like to travel with our dog sometimes, but we would not want to send it to the cargo area.

Assuming that I get a pup from health-tested parents, what can I expect for the pup's health. Are minis generally more healthy than toys? That's what my Google search tells me. I wish some PF members who have raised both can chime it.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Dechi said:


> In my case, the bigger the dog, the more allergens it carries and the more allergies I will have. I do have mild allergies to my toys, but they don’t trigger asthma. I don’t think I could live with a standard poodle.
> 
> As for health problems, I think if you buy from a good breeder, it shouldn’t be a problem. I hear a lot of people complaining about patella issues with their toys, but none of my two have those problems. My female has a sensitive stomach and seems to be more prone to mild problems, but other than that, nothing.
> 
> Regarding barking, my females barks, my male doesn’t, or very little (and only because SHE does, lol).


Thanks, for sharing, Dechi. I also figure that the smaller the dog, the less allergy risk. Perhaps for some, the size don't matter. It's good to hear that your toys are pretty healthy. We definitely want a girl, so we might expect more barking?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am in the UK, but I think the answers to some of your questions are universal. Health is very much a matter of breeding two healthy, not too closely related dogs and careful management of the pregnancy and neonates, so the important thing is to ensure the breeder knows the history of the parents (and of the grandparents, great grandparents, previous litters, etc), regardless of the size of the poodle. Any litter may throw up a puppy with problems (liver shunt, for example), but an experienced breeder will recognise the symptoms. Check with your country's kennel club and breed clubs for the recommended health tests, and expect the breeder to be up front about sharing this information. In the UK there is no central register for luxating patellas, but dogs should have written certification from a qualified vet that they are clear before being bred.

On price, there can be a big difference between a show quality pup bred by a respected show breeder and a pup from a pair of local pet dogs - that is not to say that the latter may not make a delightful pet, but it is going to be far more of a gamble. Do your research, know what to look for in terms of health testing, conformation, temperament, etc, and do not go near a litter unless you know you have the self control to walk away if there are warning flags - puppies are designed by nature to press every oxytocin button in the human heart, and the temptation to "rescue" them from poor conditions can be overwhelming. And take out insurance before even bringing the puppy home, just in case!

On size, a large toy is nearly as robust as a small mini, and yappiness is largely down to how you raise them - I have known silent toys and minis that never stop barking. Energy levels are pretty variable, too, but exercise is good for you as well as your dog - I speak as one who chose a papillon as a breed described as needing minimal walking, and found Sophy has not read the books - 3 miles is her idea of a decent walk, and she would happily do that at least twice a day!


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## Moni (May 8, 2018)

Don't think there is a price difference with WELL bred toys or minis - with minis being much harder to find and much rarer with some colors. I think the litter sizes are about the same. Mine was one of 3. My mini is very active but has an off switch. He displays quite a high level of separation anxiety and plays favorites among people. He LOVES men - but is obviously very attached to me. I was very lucky to happen to come across a litter on the ground that was not what the breeder needed at that point (too many youngsters already entering shows) and I wanted a boy. I think bitches are harder to find.
Coming from large dogs all we did in our first two weeks is step on the poor little guy - he was really tiny for us personally.
He thinks he is a Standard and gages his leaps off furniture accordingly so we have to heavily patrol that. He can also jump straight up on my shoulder from standing.
They have highly sensitive temperaments according to their environment - they pick up on stress or disagreements and can be slightly hysterical in a loud household.
Our Louie is very much a diva and a bit of a drama queen (like me? haha), but a really great and also tough dog nonetheless.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

PJR202 said:


> I don't really know anything about Mini's, but our toy is extremely active. He's either asleep or going 100% for the most part. There's not much in between. He's not really yippy, I don't think. He barks at the door, but otherwise he's eerily quiet, even when playing aggressively. Prices probaby vary but we got outs from a breeder for $550.


That was an excellent price, here the cheapest for puppies is 1800 to 3500 and a really small one 2 to 3.5 pounds as much as 5500


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have had 8 toys and all healthy except Bella who has an eye disease. All go outside to potty including the one I have trained for the potty patch she does both. All of the toys I had always walked behind me or beside of me not in front of me. Todate and pray it never happens I have never stepped on one or fell over one. I now have 3 - 3.5 lb, 5 lb, and 6.5lb. Toys are my preference as easy to handle, they bark when someone is at the door.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

PuppyDream said:


> Thanks, for sharing, Dechi. I also figure that the smaller the dog, the less allergy risk. Perhaps for some, the size don't matter. It's good to hear that your toys are pretty healthy. We definitely want a girl, so we might expect more barking?


I wouldn’t say that. I think it’s more a personality thing. I have the barking pretty much under control for minor stuff. She knows she’s not supposed to and will stop if asked. 

I let her bark a little more for major stuff because I don’t want to have a neverending battle on my hands. And also because I do want her to bark if soemone is at the door or around the house. To me those are circumstances when it’s permitted to bark.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

PuppyDream said:


> We are trying to choose between the toy or mini for our first poodle pup. So I've gathered all the pros and cons between the two to help us in our decision making. I'm not sure if the data I have is accurate or whether I miss some important point. I hope to learn more from PF members who have actual experience owning this breed.
> 
> Mini's Pros:
> 
> ...


i had a tpoo for almost 20 years and now have a minipoo. I definitely had a much harder time finding a minipoo. In fact I probably would have started to look for a small spoo if I hadn’t found my minipoo to open up more options. 

The prices seem to be about the same. If you are paying for marketing terms like teacup or royal and even Moyen you can expect to pay more for a dog that was carelessly bred with the sole goal of earning money - avoid those breeders and stick with those concerned with breeding healthy poodles. 

While I do think my minipoo is more robust than my tpoo because of size, I still have concerns about her jumping on furniture. Where we have wood floors I have bath mats strategically placed for safe take off and landing zones. When my tpoo was in her teens she jumped down and knocked her ligament temporarily out of position so we took her to a vet who showed us how to pop it back in. From that time forward she was not allowed to jump on and off furniture, we picked her up and she learned quickly. We never had any more problems until her last year when arthritis set in. When she was young this tpoo went with my girls to the park to play, one daughter taught her circus tricks to walk on a ball etc. so she was quite active. My tpoo was average size, not a teacup and not oversized. My minipoo partipates in many dog sports including agility. If I had a tpoo I’d do the same dog sports (I wouldn’t buy a teacup tpoo). 

My minipoo is slightly oversized so I don’t think she would fit well under an airplane seat, but minipoos on the smaller side do. My dog weighs 16 pounds so she’s easy to pick up and carry when necessary. She also takes up one seat in the car when driving. If I had a tpoo I’d also need one seat for a dog carrier. 

My minipoo loves to run and she is amazingly fast, but she has an off switch and when the weather is miserable she’s fine snoozing for several days on the couch if we can’t get out to do fun activities. Same with my tpoo. 

My tpoo was a yapper - major annoyance. My minipoo rarely barks. I think it’s partly personality and maybe training can dull it down but I’m not sure. However I know people with minipoos that bark and tpoos that don’t. And there are major barking spoos too as well as quiet ones. There is a problem with small dog syndrome where people with small dogs don’t think their dogs need training to be well behaved because you can pick them up instead. that leads to many’s yapping badly behaving small dogs which feeds into the reputation of small dogs being yappy and snapping. 

Yes less hair may mean less allergies but I think it’s probably not a significant difference. Dechi has two tpoos and perhaps if she had one dog she could tolerate a minipoo or spoo. 

Health issues, I think the smaller the dog more risk for patella problem due to the smaller groove. The larger the dog the more risk of bloat, so spoos are more at risk here. Overall a properly bred poodle from a breeder who knows what they are doing breeding dogs that are fully tested helps avoid some health issues.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I was really surprised to see the item that minis are less expensive than toys. I agree with the person who said that all well-bred dogs of any breed tend to cost $2000 or a bit more.

Minis are almost without exception the most active of the three varieties, but they are also probably the easiest to train. Our house was SO quiet while Zoe was in Houston with Betty! We always say that Zoe is the life of the party. She is busy, busy, busy all day long, but she crashes about 8pm. Blessedly her very favorite thing is playing with her tennis balls; she even will throw it for herself and chase it! That sure helps funnel her energy into an acceptable behavior. The only naughty thing she does is raid trash cans for paper to shred into teeny tiny pieces. 

I have never tried to prevent her jumping on or off furniture, although I cringe every time she jumps from the back of the sofa to the hardwood floor. Maybe when she gets old, she will not be as elastic as she is now and will stop that behavior - hope so!

All that said, I think that when you are selecting a puppy, whether toy or mini, is to decide on the energy level you like and then talk to the breeder to determine which puppy best matches that energy level.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

There are some differences. Vet bills and training classes and most things will be the same costs. But food will be cheaper, not significantly but tpoos do eat less. I prepare home made food for my dog and I have to prepare larger batches of food for my minooo compared to my tpoo. If you plan to travel by plane the smaller the dog the easier it will be to fit them underneath. 

For training however it’s harder to bend down training a small dog. There’s training tricks that you use with small dogs - trainers without a lot of experience in small dogs may not be aware of them. No matter what size dog you get, do plan on going to training classes. I highly recommend training and achieving the AKC CGC or similar. This is the class where you learn how to handle your dog out in public keeping it safe.

You will need to bend lower to put collars and coats on, to snap a leash on etc. 

If you groom at home, a toy has less body to wash and clip and is cheaper at the professional groomer.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks fjm, moni, glorybeecost, Skylar, Johanna, and Dechi. From all the responses, it seems that I can't really generalize health, energy level, and small-dog syndrome between the toys and the minis. 

I'm on wait lists for both a toy and a mini. After hearing PF members' input, I'm leaning toward the toy for ease of travelling and grooming. But in the end, it might come down to which one is available first. I feel more comfortable now knowing that there are no significant differences between them.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When I need to put on harnesses or coats on my two tpoos, I don't bend down and put the entire thing on. Bending over for too long hurts my back. I pick them up, so I just bend over for a second, put them up on the counter in the laundry room or some other high up place. That's easier. I do bend at my waist to give a treat. Or in Maurice's case he's allowed to stand up on his hind legs and meet me half way unless I specify to him to sit. He only weighs 4.7 lbs so I don't mind. Some people dab something on a long handled wooden spoon or just drop it near the dog. 

I love how easy they are to pick up and carry if need be and convenient for traveling, grooming, feeding etc. 

I have one that's yappy. That's the smaller one, Maurice. He's got bionic hearing and sounds the alarm often and easily. Matisse seems to be smarter that way and realizes that certain sounds that alarm Maurice are normal and nothing to make a fuss over. So he just barks at the usual things dogs bark about and looks at Maurice like he's really being ridiculous. And they both stop when asked. 

Luxating patella is often times something that a breeder can't guarantee because although the parents may not have had a problem, (my poodles' parents did not)...it is what's known as polygenetic and it can be that a dog wayyyy back in the lines had it and it pops up now and again. AND...very important: It can be brought on from trauma...an injury. That was the case with Matisse. The predisposition is there in toy breeds. Their sockets tend to be pretty shallow. He hurt his leg running and he slipped in the wet grass going around a corner and his knee got ripped out of place and it never got better on it's own...had to have surgery. My other little one, Maurice has what the vet says are a little bit loose. They don't slip out of the groove or fall out of the socket. But there's a wee bit of free play. It's completely unnoticeable and he has zero problems. The vet says it's good that he's kept lean and he gets lots of exercise. This keeps him from having any trouble. Anyhow, most dogs get along fine with this or they have surgery if need be. 

If you're young and strong, a mini might be great. Me...I'm getting up there and I like the lighter weight toys in case I would have to carry them or hold them for an extended period of time for some reason. They can go anywhere with me pretty much. I am very into hiking. _And_ they make terrific hiking buddies even if they are small, just as my Chihuahuas did some years back. They go and go and go longer than I want to. LOL. I don't pamper them too much. They're still treated like dogs. They're capable, sturdy for their size and you just get use to being careful with them...not to sit on them because they burrow in the blanket on the couch. (watch out for that) You learn to look down for a split of a second before you move and it becomes 2nd nature...you don't even think. You just glance down. Plus, they learn very well to watch you and your movements and they get out of the way. But they have to learn so when you have a new pup, watch out. Put them in a crate when people come over until everyone knows to watch out. Or hold them at first. Be careful around big dogs. Pick them up until you know how the big dog is. Some have grown up with tiny dogs and know how to be careful. But you also need to know that the dog is gentle and not going to snap at your dog because all it takes is one little nip from a bigger dog and that's it....a broken neck. So yes, they're fragile but it all works out. Watch out for birds of prey out in the opened. Another thing. Anyhow, it all becomes 2nd nature.

They're individuals and their temperament will vary more due to that than their breed tendencies probably. For instance, Matisse is my goof ball, a clown, a major sense of humor...looking for a game or a trick to play on me, stealing my sock and racing around. But he doesn't wreck it and drops it or brings it to me as requested. lol. He's just too cute so I don't mind. He picks up a piece of stick or something outside and throws it for himself to fetch and then brings it back to the starting point over and over. He can entertain himself and he gets onto new behaviors...things I teach him in double time. He is very playful, but not hyper active. (was as a pup) He has a fantastic off switch and will match my mood. Maurice is much more quiet. (not vocally) He is sweet and endearing, laid back and just sort of subtle in all he does. He is happy to sit on someone's lap for an eternity. Both are extraordinarily affectionate and love to cuddle. Matisse, when I pick him up, presses his head into the crook of my neck...trying to get closer than is physically possible. It's so cute. But I hear that some are more reserved than mine. 

Anyhow, this is too long. I wish you the best in your search and whatever type you get.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Poodlebeguiled. I'm not that old but also getting up there  So a smaller size would be more convenient for sure. But I'm wondering if the toys can safely go up/down the stairs.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I never had a problem with my small dogs (toy poodles, chihuahuas, Italian greyhounds) going up and down stairs or with jumping on/off furniture. The only accident ever was when an Italian greyhound wiggled out of my hands and jumped from the grooming table to a concrete floor. That was an awful night! He did recover, but always had a bump on the leg that broke. From then on I used a grooming noose on small dogs rather than trying to hold them with my hand.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh how scary Joanna. I'm sorry you went through that. Poor babies. I go away and come right back to get something or turn on a light switch... and leave my dogs on the table because they totally know they mustn't move. They have depth perception and they just stand in one place and show me that they see the ground wayyyy down there. But they're experienced lads, now nearing 6 years old already...in May. 

Puppy Dream...Absolutely not a problem doing stairs. These little pip squeaks are athletic. The stairs may be a little tall for a little wee baby but when they're adults, they fly up and down the stairs. No worries. My previous house had stairs and that's when I got the puppies. They'd still use the stairs but take one at a time...kind of a big jump, then another. But in no time, they were going faster. They jump over logs on the beach if they're not too big. They are somewhat fragile but they're not porcelain dolls.

I don't know why minis would be easier to train. But I've never had a mini so what do I know? But I do know that my Matisse especially (a little quicker than Maurice I think) can learn a new behavior in just a couple reps, sometimes less than a couple. He learned to pivot on his front feet, going both directions in about just a couple of tries. Backing up along side me and with me in front of him....one or two tries. We have another little trick where we walk, he waits while I keep going, then he catches up when I cue him nonchalantly, then wait, then catch up etc. Repeat, repeat all the way down the road. lol. He got onto that after just a couple of times showing him. He didn't do it perfectly...to get something cleaner, it took some more practice but he just gets me. Maurice is pretty smart too but not like Matisse. And there's just some kind of connection I have with Matisse...hard to describe but we just really have a meeting of the minds. I totally adore little Maurice (in my siggy) and probably if I spent more time working with him, I'd see something different. But I just haven't worked with him as much. He's responsive but he's just not quite as full of gusto as Matisse. He definitely has a darling, speedy as lightening recall...very cute. And sits and stays, halts when asked, stays when I go out of sight. Very willing and trainable, but I don't quite see the quickness as I do in Matisse but that may well be me. They have different learning styles I guess. But neither one of them ever "needs" a correction in training. As long as I don't ask too much too soon. And set them up for success by keeping them motivated, finding out what it is they'd like and using that to my advantage, they're a dream to train. I like dogs with some vim and vigor for training. Lots of get up and go, energy, goofiness. They're just more fun to train I think. Maybe that's what makes Matisse so eager to learn. He was a crazy lunatic puppy. lol. Anyhow, both know how to hike and "check in" without being told and get back on the "trail." They had rock solid recalls but need a refresher course about now. lol. So, basic obedience and stuff for our outdoorsy life style. I am not interested in classes anymore...use to be. Not into competition at all so it's just stuff to make them a joy to live with and hike with, take in public with me etc. And just for fun.

Another long post but I wanted you to get a feeling for what it might be like to live with tpoos.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

It's interesting to note that when you go to the grooming area of a conformation show you see poodles of all sizes staying on their grooming tables for long periods of time. I suspect most poodles make one try at jumping off a table early in life and are told in no uncertain terms that once on the table you stay on the table - absolutely no jumping. I certainly did have to explain that to Zoe - she is a fearless jumper.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Yes, Matisse learned at a very early age when he was showing to stand still on the grooming table and there's no point in moving around. And he could see the floor and knew that he mustn't for his own good. And Maurice did not spend so much time on the grooming table like Matisse did as in shows but he really listens to me...trusts that he best stay put. He's a little on the timid side in that way...not brave at all. lol. _So if mom says stay, I better stay. No telling what kinds of monsters are underneath the table. _:afraid:

But until one is sure, it's best to stay right with them. And never leave the noose on and walk away. I remember in the shows, my breeder would say "it's okay. The noose is short enough and he can't step off the table." And he was right. There was no way he could reach the edge of the table. BUT...I still didn't do it. I always think what if...what if the noose loosened up in some way or whatever...I'd rather have a dog fall off than get hung. So if there's ANY doubt, stay with the dog or carry him with you if you need to go get something. Well, carry if it's a small dog. I've practiced so much and had them stay, walk away just a few feet, come back etc. They're really very smart...these guys.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My tpoo had no problem with stairs until her last year when arthritis set in. Because it takes them longer to get large enough to go up and down stairs, they don’t do it as early as larger puppies do strictly because of size and not ability. 

When my tpoo was still too small to go up and down stairs, my large male cat used to carry her around in his mouth taking her on furniture and up and down the stairs. He didn’t like to hear her whimper and I think he liked the company. I had to watch carefully because I didn’t want him taking her upstairs or on furniture when she was too small to get down herself. He was also carrying her down and off the furniture. Those two were quite a team and this dog learned cat language.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Skylar said:


> My tpoo had no problem with stairs until her last year when arthritis set in. Because it takes them longer to get large enough to go up and down stairs, they don’t do it as early as larger puppies do strictly because of size and not ability.
> 
> When my tpoo was still too small to go up and down stairs, my large male cat used to carry her around in his mouth taking her on furniture and up and down the stairs. He didn’t like to hear her whimper and I think he liked the company. I had to watch carefully because I didn’t want him taking her upstairs or on furniture when she was too small to get down herself. He was also carrying her down and off the furniture. Those two were quite a team and this dog learned cat language.


Oh my goodness! That is the coolest story. What an unusual and awesome thing that your cat took such good care of your tpoo. Soooo cute.:love2: Wish you had pictures.

Yes, I am remembering better now. At first when mine were pups the stairs are just too tall and they couldn't quite get up on the next one but it didn't seem to take long before they could. They sure grow fast.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Oh, Skylar, that is the most wonderful story about how you cat took care of your tiny puppy. I just saw a video this morning about a cat who took in a litter of cocker spaniel puppies because the puppies' mother was negligent. I do like to read about or see items about how animals can be so caring of one another.


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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Hello PuppyDream,

I also dream of puppies  I wanted to say that it is really worth while to spend time with a toy and time with a mini. My groomer has a mini. While we were talking poodles she picked her dog up and put her in my arms. She is 15 pounds, but leggy mini poodles look like they would weigh more. Once those long legs were folded up in my arms she was remarkably easy to hold. However, she spent the whole time looking at her mother with a "WHY are you doing this to me?!" look in her eyes. Very funny. She is a sweet mama's girl.

Personally I like the size of a toy, or an oversize toy. This really reflects how much I enjoy carrying a dog around, and not much else. I think minis make wonderful companions as well, just not as much fun to carry as frequently as I like. 

Good luck in your search!


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Johanna said:


> Oh, Skylar, that is the most wonderful story about how you cat took care of your tiny puppy. I just saw a video this morning about a cat who took in a litter of cocker spaniel puppies because the puppies' mother was negligent. I do like to read about or see items about how animals can be so caring of one another.


The relationship my tpoo and this cat had was very special. They clearly communicated. We used to take our dog on vacation which meant we were walking her in new locations - and local cats would come out of hiding to come and rub up against her or sniff and rub noses. The owners would be shocked making statements that their cats hate dogs. When we went on vacation once and left our tpoo with someone who owned 3 dogs and a cat.............she expected our tpoo to sleep with her dogs, instead she climbed over the pet gate to snuggle with her cat. I don't think my cat would have developed that kind of special relation with a larger dog. It started because a 12 week old tpoo puppy was small enough for a cat to carry around in his mouth.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Skylar said:


> When my tpoo was still too small to go up and down stairs, my large male cat used to carry her around in his mouth taking her on furniture and up and down the stairs.


WOW...did you capture any video? I would love to see your cat taking care of your puppy. It's amazing how the cat manage not to hurt the pup with its teeth.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

PuppyDream said:


> WOW...did you capture any video? I would love to see your cat taking care of your puppy. It's amazing how the cat manage not to hurt the pup with its teeth.


Sadly this was 30 years ago. I was surprised he was a male cat but was very motherly and protective with her.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Toys are much easier to carry, I have 3.5 5 and 6.5 and it is amazing how easier it is to cary the 3.5 lb. i trained all my dogs whether puppies or older when I got them not to jump, except the last one who was 5 when I got her,k she jumps, but she is long legged but only on the sofa, not the bed. None of mine know how to go up and down stairs, always lived in a one level home with maybe one shrt step to the yard.

A cute story, I take them all 3 to the vets and there is about 5 steps to get in side his office. I am standing on main street in Easton, trying together up 3 poodles to take them up the steps. This man is walking up the street says looks like you got your hands full can I help and he carried 2 up for me. Turned around and laughed and said I took a vido of you trying to round up all 3 dogs, so I decided to help and am going to show my wife this video. She wants a toy poodle and I did not, until I met there, they are like little human children. I said how right you are


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

One other thing to consider, tear stains on their faces. It’s a problem with tpoos because their tear ducts are either too small or closed so they don’t drain the tears properly. If you look at the photos here of tpoos you will see staining of the fur underneath the eyes. You will need to keep the area clean and some people use special products to minimize the stains. I don’t know if all tpoos have this problem, but all that I’ve seen do. When my tpoo was spayed I had the vet open up her tear ducts, but the tears still didn’t drain properly. I had to wipe her face often. 

It’s not common with minipoos, and rarely seen in spoos. Allergies can make it worse. It’s not a problem with my minipoo.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Skylar said:


> One other thing to consider, tear stains on their faces. It’s a problem with tpoos because their tear ducts are either too small or closed so they don’t drain the tears properly. If you look at the photos here of tpoos you will see staining of the fur underneath the eyes. You will need to keep the area clean and some people use special products to minimize the stains. I don’t know if all tpoos have this problem, but all that I’ve seen do. When my tpoo was spayed I had the vet open up her tear ducts, but the tears still didn’t drain properly. I had to wipe her face often.
> 
> It’s not common with minipoos, and rarely seen in spoos. Allergies can make it worse. It’s not a problem with my minipoo.


Very true ! Merlin doesn’t tear so much anymore because I used very tiny amounts of angel eyes for a while. 

Beckie had her tear ducts unblocked but still has tears.

I wipe their face with baby wipes when I brush their teeth, it gets rid of the dry hair that results from the tears running.

I do manage it well and you rarely see those awful dark stains on them. But still.

If I was a toy breeder, this is the first th8ng I would try to improve. It is sooooo annoying !


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Dechi and Skylar for bringing up the tear staining issue. This is something I think we can live with.

We are now at a decision point. I have a slight preference for the toy option, but a mini is available before the toy. So I'm not sure if we should get it now or wait till later. 

Mini:

There is a local reputable mini breeder that has a mini female pup that fits our check list for color preference and health testing. She is newly born and we can pick her up around spring break, which fits well in our schedule (i.e. both my hubby and I can take vacation to be with the pup for the first 3-4 weeks). We don't need to drive far to pick up the puppy and we can visit the parents. The only reservation I have is this breeder keeps the puppies in a small playpen and does not do any potty training. We would need to do that from scratch. If a pup is used to sleeping and pottying in the same textile (blanket/carpeted) area for 9 weeks, we would have a harder time breaking that bad habit.

Toy:

I found a reputable toy breeder (named A) in Canada (from my research, I feel very comfortable and trust this one) but her wait list is so long she's not taking any more applications. Instead, she referred me to another one (named B) that's about 6 hours drive from us.

Breeder B has a shorter wait list. I think I might be able to get a pup within a year. From her Facebook images/video, I can see that she has some nice past puppies and that she does start potty pad training with her puppies. I asked to see test results for the parents, and she said that she would send them to me once she know which puppy she would pick for me.

If I wait to get a toy, I'm not sure how long the wait would be and whether we would be able to take time off work then to be with the new puppy. I don't know how good the pedigree is and the health test results. We also would not be able to visit the parents before commiting to buy because of the distance. But the puppy would be smaller and already got some potty training.

Decision...decision...what would you do if you were in my shoes?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Actually housebreaking is kinda from scratch because puppies don't generalize, what was okay at breeder's home needs to be reinforced/relearned to a degree. 

I have had 7 poodles, 6 were toys and one was a mini, I got three as adults and four as puppies. My latest toy puppy I got December 2017.

I can only relate that despite the best of plans things can go awry. 

This what happened when I brought my toy boy home. Because I work, I cannot have a puppy under a certain weight which is 4 pounds, hypoglycemia is a real concern in toy dogs, after a certain age and weight it is less of a concern, none of my toy poodles have been under 17 weeks of age and have been over 4 pounds for that reason. 

I really wanted a female but the breeder I got Leonard from only had really tiny females. So to get the older pup at the desired weight and age I needed, I got a male.

I got my boy Leonard he was 18 1/2 weeks and 4 pounds, I actually brought Leonard to work with me the first week and then I took 2 1/2 weeks off to get him settled. I had trouble getting him to eat regularly the first week he lost a 1/4 pound in weight, he got a UTI so house breaking went a little sideways. 

I hired someone to feed and care for Leonard in the middle of the day when I went back to work until he was about 6 months old. 

I had a plan, I then had to adjust my plan.

I know not an answer, truthfully I wanted an adult but the poodle with the temperament I wanted was a pup and male.

There isn't an easy clear cut answer IMHO


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Poodles are intelligent dogs and are possible to potty train! Just remember all puppies have bathroom accidents at some point. I would go with the mini


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Not biased, but I will go with the mini. However I get the sense that you have been wanting a toy from the getgo.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Breeders don’t really do housbreaking. The just habituate the puppies to doing their business in a certain spot. Take this puppy anywhere else and he will go on the floor.

The puppies are too yuung to be housebroken and the breeders don’t have the time when the pups get older. Don’t let that influence your decision, it will have no incidence whatsoever on your dog’s learning curve.

The main difference between the two, really, is the amoung of energy. A toy is happy just running around the house and the backyard if need be. A miniature might not do well without the proper exercise, and might develop behavior problems if his needs aren’t met.

I had a miniature once, a long time ago. She was a sweetheart but the most hyper, crazy dog I ever had. She was on springs, and would never stop or be tired. Ever. I’m not saying they’re all like her, she was probably at the top of the scale.  But even if they’re in the middle of that same scale, it can be a lot for some people (like me, lol!). I’ll take 4 toys over just 1 like her...


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

The mini, as long as her temperament is the right fit for you. The timing, certainty of a puppy, and location sound so much more ideal. I'm in agreement with everyone else that the housebreaking is a non-issue. I've gotten adult dogs and puppies from the pound and puppies from breeders, and they all learn in relatively the same amount of time. Good luck with the decision!


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Twyla, thanks for sharing. You helped me see that the potty training was not a significant advantage. You also reminded me that the toy would require more care than the mini during its infancy.

Dogs4Life, thanks for the vote. When sitting on a fence, it certainly helped me to hear how others would pick.

Asuk, thanks for your vote. You are right that I would definitely pick a toy if it was available now.

Dechi & Zooeysmom, thanks for your input. If housebreaking is a non-issue, then the remaining tie-breaker is the energy and temperament.

If we go with the mini option, it's pretty much unknown what level of puppy energy and temperament we would get. I already asked the local breeder if she did temperament testing. She said she did not and that temperament depended on where the dog was at. I asked if she could pick out a more laid back puppy for us. She said she would try. But I from what I know, she let buyers pick based on first come first serve. Some of her new puppies are already reserved sight unseen. 

I can choose to do some temperament testing on my own if I wait until the puppies are 7-8 weeks old, but I'm afraid that by then, all the females would be gone. There might not be any left for me to choose.

Energy level is important on my list. We are a busy family with both parents working outside the home and children going to school. Therefore, I think a toy, which needs less exercise, would be ideal for us. However, the toy option is not yet available. If we wait to get a toy in the future from the Canada breeder, I feel this path has many unknowns. I rather fulfill my kids' wish for a pup now rather than later. So I'm inclined to go with the mini.

I discussed the toy and mini options with my hubby. He vetoed the toy because he did not like the hassle of driving long distance and he also felt more comfortable buying from a local breeder that we already know. So we probably will go with a mini.

The local breeder said I could come and visit the puppies when they are 4 weeks old. I'll also get to meet the parents. I think I will choose one at this time and just hope that its temperament and energy level will fit our home life.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

My own experience with poodles is entirely mini's, seven of them, all girls til Remo and Neo came along. 

I must have had an extremely long lucky streak, or just have nothing to compare to, but beyond expected puppy mania, I had no idea that mini's were considered the most active lol. We have always had a fenced back yard, so ours were outside playing and cruising around pretty much as much as they wanted to (offset schedules for the humans made that possible) but after puppyhood, they all had snooze buttons. Keep in mind that playing "games", i.e. training, will also help drain energy.

I also agree that potty training is really a non-issue so far as choosing. The opportunity to meet the parents is valuable.

We travel with ours by car, usually once or twice a year, one short trip, one longer. Mini's are still quite portable  With one exception, and the boys still quite young, all the others lived to 15y or more. We dressed our girls in cute sweaters and such but didn't go full on Hollywood. Well, one time we did a bit.

Good luck with your decision.


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Milo is my first small dog but like RNP, I don’t see the hyper behaviour. My mini spent his day napping while we are at work and school. In the evenings is when the kids spent most time with him in between after school activities. We do a lot more on weekends, right now it’s mostly tobogganing.

I know your girls want a female, but keep an open mind. The breeder has been with the pup for 9-10 weeks, she should have a general idea on temperaments, even if she doesn’t test for it. You might reserve a female you like but what if the temperament doesn’t fit your family? My boy gets dressed up by my daughter at times. He really doesn’t care if he has a hair clip on his head or rocking pink sunglasses.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Rose n Poos. Your feedback on your mini's gave me hope 
Thanks, Asuk. Yes, the breeder can have a good idea about temperament by 8-9 weeks. But the problem here is she does not assign puppies based on temperament herself. Instead, she sells her puppies first come first serve as soon as they are born. And some people from long distance are buying without seeing the pups. She told me that puppies don't move around much at 4 weeks old (when I can visit them). And from what I heard, people usually do temperament testing at about 8 weeks.

So when I visit at 4 weeks, I think there would be few left (male and female). At 8 weeks, when I can try to do temperament testing (another question mark because I've never done it before , I believe all the puppies would have homes already.

Even though others are buying sight unseen, I'm holding off until I can meet the parents and see the puppies. I think I can try to pick out one at 4 weeks, and put a deposit down. Then between 4-8 weeks, I can try to visit a few more times to see how my reserved puppy behave. If I feel that the one I reserve is not right for us, I can always back out and might lose the deposit. If it comes to that point, I can ask her to let me pick from the next litter with the possibility that she might not be very receptive to that.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Skylar said:


> One other thing to consider, tear stains on their faces. It’s a problem with tpoos because their tear ducts are either too small or closed so they don’t drain the tears properly. If you look at the photos here of tpoos you will see staining of the fur underneath the eyes. You will need to keep the area clean and some people use special products to minimize the stains. I don’t know if all tpoos have this problem, but all that I’ve seen do. When my tpoo was spayed I had the vet open up her tear ducts, but the tears still didn’t drain properly. I had to wipe her face often.
> 
> It’s not common with minipoos, and rarely seen in spoos. Allergies can make it worse. It’s not a problem with my minipoo.


Agree not all have tear stains, Sage does not and I had 3 others that did not, the other 5 did.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

That is annoying that the breeder doesn't match puppies to buyers, or allow picking order once the puppies temperaments come out when they're older. I think you are VERY wise to wait on reserving a puppy until you know which one you want, if you want one. I also agree with being open to a boy. Boys make equally fabulous family pets. In the past, I have preferred females, but Frosty has thoroughly convinced me that boys rock!!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I prefer females as no problem peeing on their legs and mine are dressed up most of the time. I prefer the toys, as I trained Cayenne for the potty patch which she always uses (and will go outside). My other 2 go outside and believe any more poodles will be potty pad trained. Running late getting home no guilt feeling she just uses her patch. Need to potty at night. just put her on the floor she runs to the potty patch and come right back. I use the astro turf on a tray, no odor it is great.


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## Aimiloo (Apr 23, 2018)

My mini who is 9 months old (how did that happen?!) has bad staining - she also loses her damn mind if anyone tries to shave or wipe them so it's a losing battle. Best is I pick her goobers out and she gets a trim at grooming. Though, she gets spayed next week and I'm going to ask about the team duct clearing! Thanks Delchi

She also does not have an off switch - I'm hoping it's her puppyness but she constantly steals things off the counter and tables and prances around like a game. She paces and paces when she's bored. We seem to be almost through the destructive stage though she loves to dig at things. 

She's very attached to me and I adore her. I do wish she would chill out more - but she's so so so so very smart like crazy so. 

She is very tall and leggy but she doesn't weigh much (i am trying to work on this as we had some digestive issues for a while and she's light and so so tall I want her to weigh a bit more). I can't picture her on a plane honestly but if she layed down I suppose she'd be fine.

I won't lie - I loved a small dog and thought if I got another i'd consider a toy when i'm older for portability. I love our mini for where we are now (40s with a 7 year old) but I can see getting a toy later in life (big for me to say because I always said she would be my only dog).

Also i know it's covered but don't worry about allergies being any more with one size!


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

PuppyDream said:


> Thanks, Rose n Poos. Your feedback on your mini's gave me hope
> Thanks, Asuk. Yes, the breeder can have a good idea about temperament by 8-9 weeks. But the problem here is she does not assign puppies based on temperament herself. Instead, she sells her puppies first come first serve as soon as they are born. And some people from long distance are buying without seeing the pups. She told me that puppies don't move around much at 4 weeks old (when I can visit them). And from what I heard, people usually do temperament testing at about 8 weeks.
> 
> So when I visit at 4 weeks, I think there would be few left (male and female). At 8 weeks, when I can try to do temperament testing (another question mark because I've never done it before , I believe all the puppies would have homes already.
> ...


While not unusual but can be quite challenging when it’s first come first serve. I am not sure why your breeder isn’t matching puppy herself since she knows them best, with future owners. Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior This should give you an idea about testing, problem with potential owners is you can be biased...I know I was. You want a specific colour or gender so badly that you might want to ignore some signs that a puppy might not be a good fit, Kwim. We are drawn to puppies, they are engineered to tug at our heart strings.

Also this https://www.puppyculture.com/new-exercise-chart.html is a very good general rule when it comes to exercising a puppy.

But, it sounds very exciting! Soon to be new puppy owners!


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## Aimiloo (Apr 23, 2018)

asuk said:


> While not unusual but can be quite challenging when it’s first come first serve. I am not sure why your breeder isn’t matching puppy herself since she knows them best, with future owners. Volhard Dog Training and Nutrition: Behavior and Training: Behavior This should give you an idea about testing, problem with potential owners is you can be biased...I know I was. You want a specific colour or gender so badly that you might want to ignore some signs that a puppy might not be a good fit, Kwim. We are drawn to puppies, they are engineered to tug at our heart strings.
> 
> Also this https://www.puppyculture.com/new-exercise-chart.html is a very good general rule when it comes to exercising a puppy.
> 
> But, it sounds very exciting! Soon to be new puppy owners!


I certainly was too - though, I said I would have taken my puppy if she was a boy (and i really wanted a girl) because of the 2 white ones, one was a bit withdrawn and skiddish at meeting. Ours was social and was all over us and my son and knowing the dog would be surrounded by children we chose her.

Now, my breeder warned us she called her 'Sassy Pants" because of her attitude and that she would be a challenging puppy but a wonderful dog. So far, that's proven to be very true. At one point I was considering making her official AKC name Songbird Told Me So "Pixie" LOL. She did say "don't forget I warned you!" when we took her home lol.


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## asuk (Jan 6, 2017)

Aimiloo, that’s too funny! Lol. I however didn’t get to pick my pup. It was picked for me. I thought for sure we were going to end up with a different pup than Milo. I won’t change it, milo complements us. On your earlier post, “off switch” is a taught behaviour. But I think at 9 months, she is entering teen phase? Lots of reinforcement at this stage. Milo is 22 months and boy, what a wonderful young adult he is now after going through the teen phase..lol if only it passes that quick for my preteen human daughter..lol


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks Glorybeecosta, Zooeysmom, Aimiloo, and Asuk for your helpful input. I'll reference the links Asuk provided and try to make use of it. The temperament testing given the constraints that I have seems quite challenging.
I'll pray everyday that the divine God would help me out 

In this quest for a puppy, I'm the captain of our family, and we have had to face many challenges up to now. Taking the responsibility for a puppy for 15+ years is a big task. I honestly feel a bit scared at times. But the fact that many PF members are always so willing to help gives me reassurance and confidence. Thank you all again.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I have to admit that I knew nothing of the Volhard testing but I did know to assess temperament based on my history with my other mini's. I'm not doubting the testing or the breeders ability to match. I just felt comfortable making my own choices. 

I wanted a confident, friendly pup with a bit of sass. DH wanted a sweet, friendly pup with confidence. We both wanted active and interested, but not hyper, pups. We went to the breeders and visited for about two hours. The available pups, their dam and sire, and a few extra family members of the breeders, including a youngling, were all present. 

After watching them all act and interact, and seeing that the two we ended up choosing also enjoyed playing with each other, we both ended up with the personalities we hoped for. *** I'm NOT saying pick two LOL-that's not for the faint of heart-but we were (mostly) prepared for two. ***
They were born 4-29-17 and this was 6-23-17, fyi.

https://youtu.be/WXVHdxC1yzo


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## Aimiloo (Apr 23, 2018)

asuk said:


> Aimiloo, that’s too funny! Lol. I however didn’t get to pick my pup. It was picked for me. I thought for sure we were going to end up with a different pup than Milo. I won’t change it, milo complements us. On your earlier post, “off switch” is a taught behaviour. But I think at 9 months, she is entering teen phase? Lots of reinforcement at this stage. Milo is 22 months and boy, what a wonderful young adult he is now after going through the teen phase..lol if only it passes that quick for my preteen human daughter..lol



Thank you, i'm working on Relax on a Matt now - it's going slowly lol. Hopefully in time we'll get there. She's picked up place well - if only she'd stay there ha ha! 

You're right, I keep forgetting she's more of a spunky teen now - she really knows how to push the limits!


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## Aimiloo (Apr 23, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> I have to admit that I knew nothing of the Volhard testing but I did know to assess temperament based on my history with my other mini's. I'm not doubting the testing or the breeders ability to match. I just felt comfortable making my own choices.
> 
> I wanted a confident, friendly pup with a bit of sass. DH wanted a sweet, friendly pup with confidence. We both wanted active and interested, but not hyper, pups. We went to the breeders and visited for about two hours. The available pups, their dam and sire, and a few extra family members of the breeders, including a youngling, were all present.
> 
> ...



Active and interested is a great way to describe my mini! Love that. She's SO aware of everything - when i take her places people are like WOW that dog is really paying attention to what's going on around her. I say she's a busy body


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

PuppyDream, it's perfectly normal to feel scared about this--it means you fully realize how life changing this new family member will be. I think you're going to make a fine decision. And yes, this forum is incredibly supportive when you're feeling depressed, frustrated, and confused by puppyhood!


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Rose n Poos said:


> After watching them all act and interact, and seeing that the two we ended up choosing also enjoyed playing with each other, we both ended up with the personalities we hoped for. *** I'm NOT saying pick two LOL-that's not for the faint of heart-but we were (mostly) prepared for two. ***
> They were born 4-29-17 and this was 6-23-17, fyi.
> 
> https://youtu.be/WXVHdxC1yzo


LOL, I don't think we dare to bring home two puppies. My hubby and I have not owned a dog for 20+ years. So we are like freshmen in raising puppies. Thanks for posting the video. Your puppies looked so adorable. Honestly, I couldn't tell any distinct difference in temperament of the pups in the video.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You're right, it isn't easy to tell from a short video like that. Spending the two hours with the breeder and family, the pups and their family, seeing behaviors and relationships, that's what gave us the information. We just watched them interact and interacted with them, sort of an informal and incomplete take on Volhard. 

Remo, the apricot/cream was my confident, friendly with sass pup. Neo, the black was DH's sweet, friendly with confidence pup. They were both active and interested in what was happening. Remo pootled around, checking on everything and everyone. He even took off to go around the side of the house on his own, just to see what might be there. Neo was a bit more focused on the people, but would chase off after Remo to play together then both would come back to the group. They each took the circumstances in stride, with wiggly tails practically the whole time. 

My description doesn't sound like much, but you can learn a lot about a pup's personality and temperament in a couple of hours of just hanging out.


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## [email protected] (Jan 16, 2019)

I have one of each. Love them both, my mini male is the sweetest boy. He is one of Dawn Strumbels pups, and I note many people have commented on her dogs wonderful dispositions. Horizon out of Duluth MN. She has gorgeous dogs and shows all over the country.You will not be disappointed.


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## Maggied (Sep 6, 2018)

I had a 11 pound, probably mini/toy I bought from the wrong place. Lovely, lovely dog but had a hip problem, never an obstacle, but she died at 23 months. She died too soon (due to careless boarding person), not related to her physical health. She was very sweet, very quiet, very smart, had panic disorder which happened unpredictably three times. Third time killed her. Never a problem with house training. A chewer of cords and woodwork, and chess pieces. I suspect abused before us. Loved all other dogs, and many people after she knew them. I adored her. Now I have a 17 pound (mini) from a breeder (who has bred many show dogs, with many awards). This one is smart, very affectionate, very attached, very, very verbal, a bit stubborn. Shy around strangers. Energetic, but not a big problem, arrived virtually house-trained, has never been a problem. Uses a pee pad, goes outside (now pee pad much of the time, mountain lions and bobcats are now in our yard, don't ask). She cost 1800, her breeder did charge 2000 for toys. Neither would have fit in a carry on; I would think a small toy might. I understand it is pretty easy to take them on board our airline, Alaska, with advance notice, vet's statement about health etc. I was frightened off a small toy when I was told a small fall, or accidentally sitting on them, could kill them.She wouldn't fit in a carrier. The mini is more active probably, she steals socks, isn't much of a chewer. Is learning to return them. I am not convinced that the size is as important as the temperament. I would now choose a pup raised in a family situation with kids, and chaos. I think they may be easier around other people. I would want to visit the people who raised them and their parents. I didn't do it with my dogs, and I think that was a mistake. But I loved and love them both very much. And poodles are so bright, and responsive, and incredibly observant, I can't imagine being without one.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Rose and Poos, thanks for the explanation. Like you, I'll try to get to know the puppies and their relatives. At 4 weeks when I plan to put down a deposit, I think I would have to rely on informal assessment rather than the Volhard test.

Softail, thanks for the referral. MN is pretty far from where I live and they don't currently have any available. But I will keep Horizon on my short list in case this local opportunity doesn't work out.

Maggied, it's very helpful to hear your experiences with you minis. The airplane traveling is a non-issue for us currently because my hubby said traveling with the kids is stressful enough he would not want to add a dog  But I think he might change his mind once he falls in love with our future puppy.


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## CharlieA (Oct 11, 2018)

Thanks PuppyDream and all responders -- this is a terrific discussion.

I believe you would be very happy with either a toy or mini, but i'd suggest the mini for you which is a little more sturdy. 

Also, there are a few simple puppy tests which can be used to detect significant behavior characteristics. For example, I like to lay a puppy on its side and gently hold them down. A puppy who is willing to submit, lay still, and look at me is less willful than one which continuously struggles and avoids eye contact. You can goggle search for a few more of the tests which can help you make a great choice. 

Poodles are loving and naturally exuberant dogs so work to shape those traits. For example, I've learned over the years that consistently practicing calmness and a quiet voice when greeting a puppy (particularly after being absent) can pay huge dividends in shaping their house personality. It will help them realize the arrival of the owner is not intended to be the moment for going nuts, or barking, or working off all the pent up energy stored while waiting for Mom or Dad. This can also help speed the potty training.

I'm excited for you and and the arrival of your next dog!


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, CharliA for the tips and good wishes. I'll surely put them to use. Stay tune for an update on our journey. The mini litter will be about 4 wks old this weekend. I'll try to visit. Hopefully our weather will improve. Seattle has been under several snow storms in the past week+. I've not gotten out of my house for 10 days.


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## tammyw (May 7, 2018)

I’ve obly had dogs since last summer, when we got our toy, Ollie. I went through very similar things that you are right now. I actually thought I was going to get a mini and almost got one but at the last second totally changed my mind.

For one, I went and spent some time with a family of minis. They were a lot bigger than I expected them to be!

I started talking to breeders about the major differences and realized that a toy was a better fit for us and I’m super happy that’s the direction we went. 

Our Ollie is now 15 months but we got him at 7.5 months. He was tricky to potty train I think because he was on potty pads with the breeder for so long. He is soooooo calm and quiet. Only really barks when someone is at the door. Sweetest little dog in the entire world, so easy to carry (and he jumps in my arms the second I walk in the door when I’m gone and then gives me a serious love affair each time. He’s 6 pounds. He’s very sturdy. We do have soft stairs at our sofa and bed but he’s also a crazy jumper and doesn’t always use them.

Our newest, Ella, is 6.5 months and she is much louder than Ollie. She “talks” and she barks a good deal. We are trying to teach her “quiet”. She’s even smaller at 4.25 pounds. She’s for sure more delicate because she’s so much tinier. 

I’d say maybe get a larger toy. A big reason we chose toy over mini is because they have a lot less energy And need less exercise. That seemed easier for us having never had a dog before. Plus a toy seemed a lot better for our 7 pound Cornish Rex cat and that turns out to have been a great decision.

Good luck!!


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## Nromley (Jan 5, 2019)

I've read this entire thread with a lot of interest; am thinking about getting another poodle, probably a year or so from now, and not sure what size I prefer, so it's interesting reading all the information.

I'm not a dog expert, so will add my amateur opinion about picking a puppy. 
The first dog I owned as an adult was a cocker spaniel purchased from a backyard breeder, who eventually suggested I put braces on the dog's teeth if I wanted to show her, because she ended up with a bad bite. Need I say more? I loved her, but she was snippy, almost impossible to train, just not a great dog.

My other dog was purchased from a pet store (I know shame on me, but it was many, many years ago)! I loved her also, but a quirky dog with many problems.

I purchased my last two dogs (a lab and a poodle) from two very reputable breeders. Both breeders and I talked at length about what kind of dog would best fit with our family. They both had temperament testing performed by a third party on the puppies. Both breeders chose our dogs for us. Neither one sold on a "first come, first served" basis.

The lab has been the sweetest, happiest and all around best dog I have ever owned. Has the very best of all the lab characteristics. Our poodle is a sassy, very intelligent, healthy and just a snuggly love. Both are very good dogs.

It's hard not to be impatient when looking for that special puppy; I know my children were upset when we visited a litter of darling lab puppies, but I knew that litter wasn't for us. When we got our poodle, we visited a couple pretty reputable breeders. When I didn't get a good feeling, and started to leave, one breeder kept bringing out more and more puppies, of all different ages! We left.

I've learned the importance of choosing a very good breeder, especially one who breeds for temperament and to avoid health issues. Definately carefully observe not only your potential puppy's behavior but the breeder and the other dogs. Be willing to continue your search if you get a bad feeling or don't find a puppy that "fits". Best of luck to you!


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

TammyW, thanks for sharing your story about your toy puppies. Yes, a large toy would be my first choice. But because my second choice, a mini, is available now instead, I'm willing to check it out. 

Thanks, NRomley, for sharing your dog ownership history. It's very helpful to hear your perspective. I'm totally with you and would definitely wait as long as it would take for a toy/mini that's been temperament tested. But that's because I've been a PF member for several months, and I've read many articles on the importance of a well-bred dog, and of temperament testing.

However, my hubby has not gone to "PF school" yet  He's still of the mind set that a mutt should be good enough. It took a lot of convincing on my part for him to go along with our plan to get a purebred from a reputable breeder. He's really against the extra effort put into traveling long distance or pay an expensive price for a pure bred pup. So I'm compromising by checking out this mini litter from a reputable local breeder first. If in the end, this local opportunity does not work out, then I'll have a valid reason to push for going the extra length in terms of effort and finance to find the right pup for us.

I want everyone in our family to be on board to welcome our new pup, so I need to balance everyone's opinion. I am deeply touched to receive so much help and guidance from PF members. Thanks again for caring!


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

Late to the conversation but thought I'd chime in with my experience living with a mini and a moyen - who are, actually, more accurately, an oversized toy and an oversized mini. 

Vontae, the oversized toy/mini, is 13 inches/14 lbs at 5 years old; Shilo, the oversized mini/moyen, is 16.75 inches/19 lbs at 11 months old. From my experience, size is what matters - regardless of whether you choose to designate the breed variety by size (in which case Vontae would be a mini and Shilo would be a moyen) or by parental heritage (in which case Vontae would be a toy and Shilo would be a mini). 

Granted this is a very limited sample size of two, but what I mean by size mattering is: Vontae acts more like a mini than a toy, while Shilo acts more like a moyen/standard than a mini. If we stereotype and assert that a mini tends to require and enjoy more rigorous exercise than a toy, and a moyen requires even more than a mini, then Vontae and Shilo fit the stereotypes perfectly. They're both extremely athletic - catching frisbees, hiking up to 5 hours/day, water retrieving, etc. In Shilo's case, he's also extremely bold, and behaves like a Border Collie - he doesn't just swim; he leaps and dives into the water for his toys. And when I see Vontae interact with other toys at his breeder's place (his breeder breeds toys, and still serves as Vontae's and Shilo's groomer, so we see her and her dogs every week), he is clearly a much more active, confident dog than most of them - and Shilo more than him. 

As many have said, it boils down to what is the best fit for your family - a small dog who doesn't require a ton of exercise and is happiest simply being a house companion, or a bigger dog who comes with all the extra work as well as activity pleasure associated with a bigger dog. From my experience, size seems to be what matters, not whether by heritage a dog is technically a toy/mini/moyen.

Good luck with your search!

Kevin


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Kevin, for sharing your experience with toy and mini. It's not too late for me...we have not purchased a puppy yet.

I've tallied up the votes from all responders on this thread about whether a mini would be more active than a toy. 7 said Yes (the mini variety is more active) and 5 said No (temperament is more individual and not breed/variety specific). So it seems that the mini is leaning toward being more active than the toy, but not overwhelmingly so.

I won't be able to visit the mini litter this weekend as I had hoped. It will likely be at least another week before I can do so. I'll carefully consider my next step.


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## kchen95 (Jan 6, 2016)

In terms of whether a mini is more "active"' than a toy, I think it's BOTH variety/breed specific as well as individual - it's a mixture of those two factors. The easiest way to understand how it could be both, is to take the comparison to an extreme: Let's compare Poodles to, say, one of the most active breeds: German Shorthaired Pointers. On the whole, would one say that GSPs are generally more active than Poodles? I would find it very strange for someone to answer "no" to this question. On the other hand, are there some GSPs who are more laid-back and lazy than your average Poodle? I would venture to guess yes to that question too; for every general breed/variety temperament, there are exceptions to the generalization, but the exceptions do not fundamentally nullify the generalization. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that: if you have an active small dog vs. an equally active bigger dog, the bigger dog is still going to play "bigger". This is pretty much true with my Vontae vs. Shilo. I would not say Shilo, the bigger dog, is fundamentally more "active" than Vontae - meaning, both are equally inclined to go out and run and have a good time. But, when they're out running/swimming around, Shilo plays "bigger" - he sprints faster, chews toys more aggressively, covers more ground, and on the whole is just more rambunctious than Vontae - basically, Shilo takes the things that Vontae does, and blows them up to a bigger scale. Some would interpret this as Shilo being more "active" than Vontae; I would say it's more accurate to say they're equally active, but Shilo simply plays like a bigger dog.

One last thing is: If you get a poodle (regardless of whether it's a toy or mini or moyen or standard) from a very good breeder, chances are the pup will be very adaptable to whatever lifestyle you give her. Vontae and Shilo are super active and super athletic now, but they were not raised that way. For the first two years of Vontae's life, when he stayed with one of his breeder's grooming students, he was pretty much a couch-potato who didn't go outside except to pee and poop - an average total on-leash walk time of probably 30 minutes max per day, vs. his current lifestyle with me of sprinting/hiking for sometimes up to 5 hours. And, he was completely happy with his more sedentary lifestyle; even now, when we sometimes get two straight weeks of nonstop rain here in the winter in Taipei, we would revert to the "going outside on leash to pee/poop only, and come right back in" lifestyle, and he's totally fine with it. Same with Shilo - when he lived with his breeder in New Zealand for the first 9 months of his life, he had no formal exercise except playing casually in the backyard with four other dogs. He never did the kind of rigorous activities that he's engaging with me and Vontae now, and he certainly wasn't unhappy being more sedentary. That's really the beauty of well-bred Poodles - there's a very wide envelope of lifestyle that they're happy in.

Good luck!

Kevin


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Kevin, your analysis of the toy and mini's temperament makes perfect sense to me. I'm planning to check out a local mini litter, and possibly proceed with reserving a puppy. But in the back of my mind, I was a bit worried that we might end up with a pup that's too high-energy, and that our family might not be able to give it the amount of exercise that it needs. I'm glad to hear that from your experience, you dogs could adapt to both a sedentary and active lifestyle.

Today a mini and toy breeder from TX, contacted me saying that they have a female toy/mini pup (5 days old) available. I found this breeder from AKC Marketplace and put in an application a couple of months back. From their website, they do health tests on the parents. But I just learned that they don't do temperament testing of the puppies. They said the parents have normal temperament and not hyperactive. So I'm thinking that I should let this opportunity go because the only thing I get from going long distance instead of local is just a smaller size.

Local Mini:

Parents are 13+ lbs and are both accessible. I met the dad, but not the mom yet. The dad seemed sweet and friendly. I can verify health tests of both parents online. Breeder does not do temperament testing of puppies.

If I choose to reserve a puppy, I can visit the puppy as it grows up; and then can back out if I don't feel that the pup's temperament fits our family (I might lose 25% deposit).

Long distance Toy x Mini (TX):

Mom is a small mini and dad a toy. So the puppy will probably be in my desired size (7-10 lbs) Mom's health test is accessible online, but dad's tests is not yet accessible. The breeder said she was waiting for a link to the dad's tests. Breeder also does not do temperament testing of puppies.

If I reserve a puppy with the TX breeder, I assume I would need to put down a deposit. Due to the distance, I can't visit the parents or puppy before committing. The price is the same as that from the local breeder, but I would need to fly to TX to bring the puppy back.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

you may want to do a bit of reading about breeding toys to minis. there are possible downsides to be considered.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Patk. I was also surprised that two different sizes were bred.


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Puppydream - even though your local breeder may not do temperament testing, most good breeders would allow a puppy buyer to evaluate the litter themselves to see the temperaments of the pups. Do some studying on the Volhard aptitude test - you can read online how to do it and print off the paperwork needed to eval each puppy at 49 days old. I’m sure there are also plenty of YouTube videos showing how to do it. The only downside is that the test should really be done by someone who hasn’t spent time with the puppies, so if you spend time with the puppies beforehand the results may not be as accurate. I have done Volhard tests for several of our local breeders and they are fun to do and only take about 10 mins per pup. Worth doing for sure, in my opinion.


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Chinchillafuzzy for the info. If I go with the local breeder, I'll try to do the testing at the 7wks mark.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I have had both a toy, and currently have a mini. The toy was spectacular personality wise, housetrained perfectly, he was very sensitive to my emotions, loved to lay on my lap or up against me, and slept in my arms every night. His health was fantastic! I adopted him at 7 years old and had him almost 9 years. By 14 he was both deaf and blind, but somehow knew when I called his name. it was uncanny. When I lost him, I knew I would never find another dog like him.

Now for the mini. he was supposed to be a toy of about 7 pounds, and he quit growing several months later at about 15 lbs. Aside from being smart and really playful like my toy, he is nothing like him! Except the given poodle things. I knew I would never have another Rikki, and finally felt ready and got Zekefur, the mini. I got him as a puppy 5 1/2 years ago. He is fantastically splendid! He too loves to cuddle, but prefers to sleep at the edge of the bed behind my legs. He "talks" to me all the time. He errrs and grrrs and lightly yip until our eyes meet. He is able to communicate things he wants.or needs. He has taught me almost every game we play. He is extremely intelligent which can be a little much occassionally. he's playful, but when I'm ready to stop, he is too,. He always asks before coming up on my lap. I just can't say enough good things about him. I could go on all night.

But enough said. The two personalities were totally different. There are many traits poodle have that no other dogs do, burt no 2 are alike. My heart has been touched so much by both it's like a ton of bricks landed there, and then got all mushy so they could work themselves into every millimeter i had available.

So, all in all, both very healthy dogs, and both had/have personalties to die for. I'm afraid I can't advise you which one is better... it's impossible..


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I have had both a toy, and currently have a mini. The toy was spectacular personality wise, housetrained perfectly, he was very sensitive to my emotions, loved to lay on my lap or up against me, and slept in my arms every night. His health was fantastic! I adopted him at 7 years old and had him almost 9 years. By 14 he was both deaf and blind, but somehow knew when I called his name. it was uncanny. When I lost him, I knew I would never find another dog like him.

Now for the mini. he was supposed to be a toy of about 7 pounds, and he quit growing several months later at about 15 lbs. Aside from being smart and really playful like my toy, he is nothing like him! Except the given poodle things. I knew I would never have another Rikki, and finally felt ready and got Zekefur, the mini. I got him as a puppy 5 1/2 years ago. He is fantastically splendid! He too loves to cuddle, but prefers to sleep at the edge of the bed behind my legs. He "talks" to me all the time. He errrs and grrrs and lightly yip until our eyes meet. He is able to communicate things he wants.or needs. He has taught me almost every game we play. He is extremely intelligent which can be a little much occassionally. he's playful, but when I'm ready to stop, he is too,. He always asks before coming up on my lap. I just can't say enough good things about him. I could go on all night.

But enough said. The two personalities were totally different. There are many traits poodle have that no other dogs do, burt no 2 are alike. My heart has been touched so much by both it's like a ton of bricks landed there, and then got all mushy so they could work themselves into every millimeter i had available.

So, all in all, both very healthy dogs, and both had/have personalties to die for. I'm afraid I can't advise you which one is better... it's impossible..


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## PuppyDream (Dec 30, 2018)

Thanks, Jojogal. I totally understand what you meant. I took a gamble and reserved a mini. Hopefully, she will also adjust to fit our family's lifestyle like yours did.


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## shadow_hunter (Dec 8, 2021)

It depends entirely on where you live. If you live in an apartment then a mini poodle is the best choice


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

PuppyDream brought home a lovely little puppy in early 2019.


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