# Several Miscellaneous Tips/Advice, Please!



## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

My standard is 12 weeks now. In the past two weeks, he has grown by leaps and bounds. Teaching him simple commands (sit, shake, lay, etc) is easier than I thought.

I'm doing the whole crate-training thing right now. He is fairly good about going outside to use the bathroom mainly because I take him out every hour or so. 

However: This morning, for example, I took him out 30 minutes after breakfast. He peed, but that's all. Less than 5 minutes later, he poops in his crate, right in front of me. Is there any way to correct this behavior? He is overall a good pup, but I can't possibly take him out every 5 minutes. I consistently take him to the same spot every time, reward him for using the bathroom, etc. Had it been 30 minutes or an hour later, I would attribute it to me for not taking him out. Is there anything other than time and maintaining consistency that would help? Anything I'm maybe doing wrong? I thought crate training is supposed to teach them not to go where they sleep, etc? 

And is there anyone who can give me advice on how to teach him to let me know when he needs to go outside? I make him go every hour or so, and he does, but there is no sign of him beginning to let me know when he thinks he needs to go. Am I expecting too much at 12 weeks?


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## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

Also, I live in an elevated home (8 feet above ground level). My pup does a phenomenal job of going up the steps. In fact, he dashes to them and runs up them with no problem. He won't go down them...no way, no how. That's understandable. But my question is: is going up a flight of steps several times a day at his age (and stature) bad for his hips? I don't mind, and in fact want to, carry him up and down the steps but he sure does like going up them on his own.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I am glad to see you have made progress since your earlier inquiries regarding house breaking and the use of crates.

I would suggest putting potty on command. Since I haven't explained it recently and there are many new members who may not have seen old posts about it I will give you the procedure here.

You will be relying on the idea that you can predict when your pup has to go potty. Take the pup out to the potty spot and start repeating cheerfully and encouragingly the word or words that will be your potty command. I have two separate potty commands, "do one" and "do two." It is not necessary to have different orders for urinary and bowel behaviors, but it is also easy to make them separate. Make sure the commands are not words you will say often or excitedly near your pup. I know many people who use empty and hurry, but didn't wan to use those words since they can easily be said with some excitement in normal conversation.

Keep saying the command and as the pup starts to go make your repeats of the word(s) more excited and cheerful. When the pup finishes celebrate with "Hooray, what a great pup, what a good DO ONE you just did!" Keep doing this very consistently and before you know it the pup will be going as soon as you say the word(s) the first or second time. This will prevent accidents like the one that happened this morning.

I have never used bell ringing as a way for a dog to signal needing to go out, but many people have had good results with that method. I hope some of those folks will reply. I had the feeling and some people have experienced that the pup caught onto ringing bells means my person will come rushing to let me go outside and that they rang the bells just to get let out, not as a signal they needed to go. 

Different dogs will have different potty signals. Some are very subtle, others more overt. Lily will start bouncing up and down if she sees me approach the door when she has to go. Other signs to look for are restlessness, pacing or circling. You just have to spend the time to carefully watch your pup at the times when you are sure he is likely to need to go, such as on waking in the morning, after eating and after a period of vigorous play.

Both of my dogs mastered going up the stairs much earlier than going down. I think that is very commonly their pattern. I would let your pup figure out the going down on his own, since you don't want him to end up falling down the stairs and then have him wanting to avoid them all together.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

My standard boy just turned 3 today, and it sounds to me like you're on the right track, in general.

I do have a few questions and comments...

... About the size of his crate--maybe it's too big for him now. A crate that's so big that he can separate it into two areas, one to sleep in and one to poop in, is too big, even if he'll grow into it.

...About timing--I think that might be on you. You didn't stay outside until he did poop.

...About terminology--please think about "prevention" and not "correction." Poodles are very sensitive and will very likely resent punitive correction as being unfair. (Yes, dogs DO understand fair and unfair. There's a recent study somewhere about that.)

...About rewards--at that age, I would have a party with tasty treats every time he did his business outside. Yeah, it's nice if they just do it, but they'll get the idea quicker if there's a paycheck. Another thing I would do is "name the action." The usual way to train it is WHEN the dog pees, and WHILE peeing (not before), say what your cue word is going to be, then GO TO THE DOG and give the treat. (If you call the dog to you, you're rewarding the recall, not the pee.) Do that often enough, and, as Pavlov has shown, you can start to ask for the action. This is very helpful at shows or when traveling and you don't want to wait until the spirit moves him to "move" him.

...The corollary to rewarding doing his business outside is NOT punishing an indoor accident, but of course he doesn't get the reward. What I have read--and inadvertently taught myself with Bridget--is that if you see the dog poop in the house and then fuss at him, the dog believes you'll only fuss if you SEE the action and then will go behind the sofa and poop where you can't see him.

...About stairs. I wish I had started this earlier with Neely--the dog needs to learn to step up and down in a civilized manner. Be patient to the point of placing his feet yourself and restraining the leaping. Imagine the chaos if you're on icy steps and holding the dog's leash (he now weighs over 50 pounds) while he decides he doesn't need to stay with you but tears off on his own.

I hope this helps! Best of luck.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Well, I see Catherine and I have given some slightly conflicting advice on teaching the command, but it will all sort itself out!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I have found that most dogs will pee when simply taken outside. But most will not poo right away. 2-3 min of vigorous exercise works most every time.
Eric.


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## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

Thanks all!

My pup gets very distracted easily. The sound of a bird chirping grabs his attention. I will say "potty" and he loses focus on the bird and starts sniffing...sometimes with success following, sometimes not. So I will continue working with this. 

He will sometimes just sit and stair at the house as if to say, "geez, I'm done. Let me go inside." After I sit there with him for several minutes, I cave in and go inside. He is often good for another hour. While I am often hesitant to just take him inside when he sits by my foot, I wonder if his signals are reliable. I sometimes get frustrated because I hear all these "My puppy was trained in 6 weeks" sort of thing. But I keep reminding myself that he IS just a puppy. 

Much thanks for all the advice!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh Marguerite I think it can be done successfully both your way and mine. I hope the OP can figure out which of our methods better suits his needs and most importantly that he is successful with his housebreaking. You brought up an important issue that passed my thinking by about the size of the crate. Brad if the crate is the size you think you need for your pup when he is full grown, don't ditch it, just use the divider that it should have come with. Marguerite is right that he should be made to think "do I really want to pee/poo here if I then have to sit or lie in it?" His answer to himself will be no and he won't soil the crate.


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## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

And I don't believe his crate is too big. It's a large crate and I have the divider so that it is appropriate in size, or at least I think it is. The only time he generally poops in his crate is when I leave and he has "nervous poop" that goes everywhere even though he just had a successful trip outside prior to me leaving. I try to curb this by occupying him with a Kong (his favorite toy) while I sneak out the house. He, up until a week ago, would potty on the rugs in my house, but I have since picked up ALL rugs and now he chooses his crate to have accidents in.


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## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

Most of the times he has pooped his crate (and I stress poop because he really doesn't urinate in his crate), occurs when I'm home, his crate door is open and he can drop and jet ha.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Well, your dog is still a baby, and vigilance is required. Neely would have pee "accidents" after I thought he should be all over that--but he IS an intact male in a house with neutered dogs of either sex. He hasn't soiled the house for probably a couple of years now, and has never marked in the house (knock wood). I still crate him when I leave the house because he might find entertainment by chewing off the corners of all the pillows.

Does your dog spend the night in the crate? In your bedroom? I'm a little troubled by stress behavior when you leave because he should be able to just "chill." The Kong is a good idea. Some folks keep a series of them filled with treats in the freezer. They take longer to eat that way. I wouldn't leave him unsupervised with a bone or a bully stick, though.


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## Brad (Jan 21, 2015)

He sleeps in his crate next to my bed at night. I've had him for 3 weeks now and he has done so every night. He sleeps soundly throughout the night (except the two times I take him out to potty during the night). I relocate the crate every night from the kitchen area to my bedroom, and back the next morning. I guess I should leave it in the kitchen and have him sleep there?


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## onceagain (Jan 28, 2015)

My standard poodle is also 12 weeks along. Prefacing of course, with knowing that all dogs are different 

I have a crate (wire type) in my kitchen, and it's open all day if he wants to go in there, he occasionally pops in there. Then he's put in it when I have to go out to do errands. But I realised it was going to be too difficult to move the crate up to my room at night, so I picked up another one, the plastic type, which is more cave-like for beside my bed. He goes into it pretty good, barely a peep from him. And we also just graduated to no getting up through the night (could be the size/comfort of his crate). I take him out at 10:30-11pm, then to bed and get him up at 6:30am for his first pee. We did this gradually though, started with dropping from 3 night wakings, down to 2, and then 1 - I only did all this because it seemed each and every time, I was waking him, he wasn't waking me (during the last week).


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Brad said:


> He sleeps in his crate next to my bed at night. I've had him for 3 weeks now and he has done so every night. He sleeps soundly throughout the night (except the two times I take him out to potty during the night). I relocate the crate every night from the kitchen area to my bedroom, and back the next morning. I guess I should leave it in the kitchen and have him sleep there?


No, I'd keep him sleeping in the bedroom. But at 8 weeks, Neely was sleeping through the night without a pee break.

What I'd do whenever I had to be away for several hours (I normally work at home) when he was very small, was to leave him in an x-pen in the kitchen, where the linoleum was easy to clean if he had an accident but he didn't have to lie in it. I tried a pee pad, but he shredded it and I'd rather clean the floor than take him to the vet for an impacted colon from eating the pad. Also, he got towels instead of "beds" because he'd shred the beds and towels can be found at thrift shops.

One thing I'd try until he's solidly housebroken is to close the crate when he's not in it. I tried following Dr. Sophia Yin's protocol of having him tethered to my belt all day, but sometimes we'd both need a time-out and he'd go into the crate. If he starts fussing, wait him out and go in and reward him when he's quiet. Look up Susan Garrett's Crate Games video, if you really want to make the crate a happy place.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Marguerite I was also thinking about crate games and the tether method for Brad and his pup. I too would keep him in the bedroom at night.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> Marguerite I was also thinking about crate games and the tether method for Brad and his pup. I too would keep him in the bedroom at night.


We are clearly kindred spirits! We'll have to meet in person sometime.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

mvhplank said:


> We are clearly kindred spirits! We'll have to meet in person sometime.


For sure. We aren't far away from each other. Maybe I will look for a summer trial out in your neck of the woods.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> For sure. We aren't far away from each other. Maybe I will look for a summer trial out in your neck of the woods.


That would be fun! As it happens, I'll be judging CDSP at Golden Rule School for Dogs in Andover, NJ, the weekend of May 9 or 10. Does that get me closer to you?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Andover is probably about a 2 hour drive for me. If I am not showing somewhere else, maybe I'll plop Lily in the car and we could have lunch or dinner together. Let's talk about that somewhere else though so as not to continue the hijacking of Brad's thread.


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## Wren (Jul 2, 2013)

You've received lots of good advice for pottying.
For steps:

I live 9 feet above ground level too. Since I had my pup out many times a day, I started putting my pup down on the last 2 steps below ground level and calling him to me. Once he mastered 2 steps down nicely, I'd place him on the 3rd step from the bottom. As he mastered each step nicely I'd place him down one step higher. It didn't take more than 3 days for him to master the flight of steps, inch by inch.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Wren, very clever and nicely done! Brad that sounds like a great plan for you. Necessity really is the mother of invention.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

mvhplank said:


> My standard boy just turned 3 today, and it sounds to me like you're on the right track, in general.
> 
> I do have a few questions and comments...
> 
> ...


This is a good post. This poster knows behavior. 

The bolded part is important. If you cue the dog before, not during, he'll miss the association. He needs to pair the cue and the behavior before the cue can be an elicitor. This whole post is full of very good tips.

And I very much agree with the philosophy of prevention vs correction and that's with _ANY_ dog. Not only is it the fair thing to do, but it works better. 

Great post.:adore:

It looks like you're off to a great start. 12 weeks is very young. He'll get onto it.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> This is a good post. This poster knows behavior.
> ...
> Great post.:adore:
> 
> It looks like you're off to a great start. 12 weeks is very young. He'll get onto it.


Wow--thanks, Poodlebeguiled! I consider myself still a student of all things dog.

And I agree, that lucky pup is off to a great start!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

mvhplank said:


> Wow--thanks, Poodlebeguiled! I consider myself still a student of all things dog.
> 
> And I agree, that lucky pup is off to a great start!


Oh gosh yes. Its like the more you learn, the more you practice, the more you find out you need to learn still. There's always more...new studies, new discoveries and some expert trainer out there who comes up with some really nifty idea to try. I'm so grateful for the many great behaviorists/trainers who continue to provide opportunities for new dog owners as well as experienced dog people to learn more.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It actually works just fine to say the word to get them to go. I have done it that way with my own and other people's dogs quite reliably.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> It actually works just fine to say the word to get them to go. I have done it that way with my own and other people's dogs quite reliably.


I often slip up and use the cue before the command is really learned. I do continue while he's "in the act" and he's getting pretty reliable at going on cue.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

mvhplank said:


> I often slip up and use the cue before the command is really learned. I do continue while he's "in the act" and he's getting pretty reliable at going on cue.


I think potty on command is differently learned than behaviors like sit since pottying is physiologically required and sitting isn't. You are making an association of a sound (word) with an essentially autonomic behavior. A puppy doesn't need to learn to go potty, they need to learn to do it at appropriate times and places. Sit, down and come are a different story.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The risk of missing the association is still there. If the puppy doesn't happen to have to go pee or go right away and you're cuing him to go when he's doing some other behavior, like trotting around or going to sniff something, looking up at you for a treat, lying down etc... he can associate the cue with what he's doing at that moment. The odds are higher he'll learn the word is a cue to go potty_ if _its paired with the act of peeing. He may still go potty at some point because he finally _has_ to but the cue and the act will be separated by miles. 

Its a little bit pointless imo to worry too much about teaching that cue anyhow because yes, he'll go if he has to anyhow or he won't go if his bladder isn't full enough to go. The only good the cue does is to get him to hurry up_* IF *_he has to go at all. And if you use the cue too many times when he simply doesn't have to go....can't go, doesn't go, then again, you're missing the association. If he gets a really tasty treat the second he's finished, he'll learn to hurry up anyhow. They go if they need to and don't if they don't. There's nothing I can do about. It is somewhat useful at a dog show or some unusual place, maybe on a walk where you're letting them know that this spot is a good place to go if they need to. It might be useful in that once they've made the association and you take them somewhere outside, you might want to tell them that its not play time. Just go potty. That's why we're going outside and we're going right back in again when you're through. So it can kind of help with potty training...to show them the point of going outside. 

The autonomic control of the bladder comes from _voluntary_ and sympathetic and parasympathetic divisions of the autonomic system which are involuntary[/I] So the puppy, once he has some feeling he has to go and is able to hold it for just a little bit, his voluntary system is beginning to work. 

No he doesn't have to_ learn _to go potty. But having to learn something or already doing it anyhow because he _has _to is irrelevant to whether or not he will make an _association_ between a cue and the behavior or the physiological act. A dog _HAS_ to lie down sometimes or he'd get so very tired. He_ has _to lie down. That's a physiological need I think. Its voluntary unless his legs give out under him from exhaustion and he falls down. But he doesn't need to LEARN how to lie down. He does however, (for us) have to learn to lie down on cue. That's why we can capture behaviors. That's why we don't use the cue to elicit the behavior UNTIL the association has been made between the behavior and the cue.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

Good information, Poodlebeguiled!

I wonder if our original poster's head is spinning yet ... are you still there, Brad?


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Wren said:


> You've received lots of good advice for pottying.
> For steps:
> 
> I live 9 feet above ground level too. Since I had my pup out many times a day, I started putting my pup down on the last 2 steps below ground level and calling him to me. Once he mastered 2 steps down nicely, I'd place him on the 3rd step from the bottom. As he mastered each step nicely I'd place him down one step higher. It didn't take more than 3 days for him to master the flight of steps, inch by inch.


Wrex came to us at 11 weeks and refused to go up or down the stairs. Our Family Room is in the lower level and for as many times as I'm up and down the stairs, carrying a 20lb puppy up and down each time got old quick. A friend of mine gave me pretty much the same advice as Wren is giving. I put him in the middle of the stairs and let him pick which way to go, because eventually he would. And he did. Mastered going up pretty quickly. Going down was harder. I would block off the top of the stairs so Wrex couldn't disappear on me, then I'd stick him probably 3 steps from the bottom and go about my business downstairs. He whined a little and I would call for him all excited. I'm afraid to say, he learned to leap off the last step or two before he learned to walk down them. But, he did learn pretty fast once I focused on it and shook off my frustration. I think when they are so small, a stair case can feel really daunting.

Also, I wish I had taken the time to teach Wrex SLOW on the stairs. Because how he IS a 53lb speed demon when he gets excited. One day he WILL knock me down the stairs. Learning now is better than never. I'm making him "wait" at the top or bottom of the stair case every time I'm on it, and then I say ok when I reach the end and he can follow me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You only cue it when you know the pup is likely to need to go as I said earlier, but apparently I wasn't clear enough. Say the words when you take pup out after waking, after eating, after vigorous play, not while the pup is floating around being sniffy or just checking out the environment.


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## dfayad (Dec 8, 2017)

*Patience*



Brad said:


> My standard is 12 weeks now. In the past two weeks, he has grown by leaps and bounds. Teaching him simple commands (sit, shake, lay, etc) is easier than I thought.
> 
> I'm doing the whole crate-training thing right now. He is fairly good about going outside to use the bathroom mainly because I take him out every hour or so.
> 
> ...


Mine is the same age...pees when I take him out in the morning and will poop within 5 minutes in a different area. Sometimes, twice. Our dog barks when wanting to go out. We have been doing the hour in the crate, hour out of the crate all day long. I am retired so I am home.


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