# Need help with biting and more



## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Can you post a picture of her?

Dogs do live in the moment, but that doesn't mean they are willing to be a doormat, you know? I think I would try some of that touch training that Victoria Stillwell uses, you know, where you sit on the floor in front of the dog and hold your empty hand out palm up about 6 inches away from her nose. Then when she reaches out to sniff your hand, you say 'touch' and then give her a treat with your other hand (which you hide behind your back until ready to give to her). 

Good luck - it's a wonderful thing you're doing. Hang in there!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Marian, there's a couple pictures of Shelby here:

http://www.poodleforum.com/showthread.php?t=5369


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Here are a few pics . I will try the touch thing. Thanks


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

She's a cutie... breaks my heart that she's been through so much!! I would never advocate anyone keeping a biter unless they knew what they were getting into and were willing to take it to the end (sounds like you're that kind of owner! Good for you!!)

I'm assuming (hoping) that you don't have children in your home... if that's true and it's just adults and dogs, (and if it were me) I'd be hanging in there for Shelby's sake, too. It sounds to me as if she's pretty damaged and really needs some time to learn to trust that you'll take care of her and she doesn't need to try to be the one in charge...

I know you mention that Cesar M says that dogs "live in the moment", but I've watched many of his programs that explain that if the owner perpetuates that "moment" the dog won't be able to move from it. For example there was a dog in Australia who; because of some abuse suffered from the postman, had an aversion to the mailman's motorbike (the posty bike) and would go after the bike and postman every time - What I understood from Cesar's explanation is that the owners were still uptight every time the posty bike came around and sort of expected the dog to act up so they had to get past that...

You mention that you are aware of the fact that you're starting to feel intimidated by her and she may be picking up on that - I wish I had some magic method you could use to make her all better, but I'm afraid that time will be the only thing that will help this girl understand that not all homes are like the ones she left behind! Two weeks hasn't been long enough for her to "get it" yet...

Good luck and hang in there! Get advice from dog behaviorists if you are able; trainers too! And keep us updated on your progress with her!!


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi again,
No kids here, my pets are my kids. As for the acting uptight when certain things happen. Yes I understand and know I need to not fear or get worried something might happen or she will pick up on it. I've been trying not to so when she does her growls I try to change it into me calling her over all cutesy so she doesn't think I fear her. Its been working a little. The first time it happened I wasn't worried at all it was a surprise. The second time was also a surprise being I thought I scared her the first time. Then I started getting a bit weary. Even now I can pick up on her stance. She gets this arched stance and look in her eyes and I know not to push. As soon as she does that I say her name and try to change her mood fast. 
I wouldn't ever dump her for biting. I am sure she has her reasons and is scared, I feel bad actually. Thought it does hurt and get frustrating.
Since I know nothing about poodles though, is there any certain grooming I should keep? I read they need to be bathed more often and have the fur pulled from their ear canals? True? Not sure how bathing will go over with her. Also does she look like a full poodle or maybe a mix? Sometimes she looks very poodle like to me and others she looks cockapoo like. Any opinions?


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Grooming may be fun (not) with a girl like Shelby! They DO need a little more in-depth grooming than, say, a labrador... There are differing opinions on the ear-hair plucking issue, but unless it's causing a problem for Shelby (impacted ear wax, inability to get good airflow through the ear canal) I wouldn't push that task just yet... Conversely if she DOES have ear problems, she will have to be "OK" with having that grooming job done for her...

I wouldn't say that bathing needs to be done any more frequently than any other dog - if she's stinky or dirty, she needs a bath! Poodles do have a haircoat rather than "fur" so the hair is constantly growing (like yours and mine) and needs to be clipped, scissored, cut periodically or you will get mats and it can get bad... If she were my dog, I'd try to get her used to short periods of brushing/combing/nail clipping/ear cleaning etc. and make it as positive an experience as possible - you never know... she may LIKE it!!! ???

I've also read on this forum that if a handler is feeling nerves coming up before a show (for example) to pop a peppermint candy in their mouth to mask any adrenaline scent the dog may pick up on... I would probably try that for any grooming training I would do with Shelby... Also, do you have a grooming table or any sort of raised, sturdy, non-slip surface that you can practice your grooming? Dogs tend to respect the table a little more than if you just try to do it on the ground where they can bite and run!!

I'm not a poodle conformation expert, and purebred poodles can have a variety of physical attributes depending on the breeding; but she looks poodle to me... If you're DYING to find out, you could have a DNA test done (we had it done on our boxer, cocker spaniel, great pyrenees, labrador, miniature poodle, viszla, plus, mix!!) :lol: There're some expenses associated with doing the test and it didn't make us love Hannah-banana any more or any less - it was just to satisfy our own curiosity.

Bless you for taking this little waif in - you state that you would never dump her for biting but can you imagine how many people may have already done just that and that's why she's so unpredictable today???

Best wishes for continued progress and for Shelby to become calm in her heart!!


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

you said that when she growls you ask her to come to you. If I were a dog, and my human called me every time I growled I would think I was being rewarded for growling. 

I highly reccomend getting a behaviorist in for this who uses positive reinforcement, not a trainer, but a behaviorist, and also ask your vets advice. 

For now until you can find one, I would ignore her when she growls. 
By this I mean, she growls, you totally turn your back, cross your arms and look up at the sky. 
With her being abandoned and shipped from house to house, you can probally use your attention for a reward. 

In any case congratulations on your new baby, and I hope it goes well for you and little Shelby. 

And yes, I think she is a poodle, but its hard to tell without a clean face if she is mixed. does she have a docked tail?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

I will reiterate that you need a professional behaviorist. This dog has a number of issues. She is dangerous to you, guests in your home and any strangers you might encounter if you take her outside the home. 

I am not a behaviorist, but here are my thoughts for what they are worth....

I would tether this bitch any time she was out of the crate. I'm talking ALL THE TIME! She does not get any free time/space until this issue is under control. Tie her to yourself. Don't give her any direction, just let her figure out that she needs to follow or she gets dragged. 

Hand feed her. She needs to know that all food comes from you. Every piece of food that this girl eats should come from your hand. If she is a fussy eater, make sure that it is high value food like steak, chicken, egg, cheese etc. 

Implement the "Nothing in Life is Free" training system. Do an Internet search for it. This girl does not get on furniture or beds.

Finally, dealing with the aggression..... 

We know that this bitch is under trained and under socialized. She probably has some sharp shy issues going on where she panics and then lashes out. However, she also seems to have dominance issues. You can see this when she is aggressive when you try to verbally correct her. I'd say that along the way, this girl has learned to bully people by acting aggressively.

I would get a dominant dog collar and if she came after me, I'd "string her up". This is a method where you basically choke a dog into submission. It seems heartless, but for many dogs it is the last stop before being put to sleep. The Leerburg site has the collars for sale plus a full explanation of how to use a dominant dog collar. http://leerburg.com/746.htm

I have personally seen this method work with a dominant Standard Poodle. In his case, his owner was teaching a forced retrieve using an ear pinch. He resented the ear pinch and he nailed his owner. She backed off and that was all it took. He learned in one action that he could physically controll the situation. The next day, he jumped up on the table to take food off of it. When his owner tried to push him off, he nailed her again. Then he went after her again when she gave him a collar pop during a heeling exercise. His owner could not handle or correct him and it is impossible to live with a dog like that.

She used a dominant dog collar and the Leerburg method (lifted feet only not full hanging). It took about three times and the problem was fixed. The dog learned that there were consequences he had never considered for aggressive behavior towards his owner.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I thought the same thing, she's gotten what she wants with the growling and biting, which is to get her to back off. Once you back off she knows that teeth and growling and showing aggression is the way to get what she wants. 

I don't want to sound mean but stop thinking of these dogs as your kids. They aren't kids, they are animals and need to be treated as such. There are rules and reprecussions in the animal world for behaviors. I think cbrand has given you excellent advice and I hope you take it for your sake.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

As said before, I would consult a behaviourist asap. Please don't try to handle this on your own, whether using positive or aversive methods. You could do more harm than good without having a plan of action to follow. Only you can decide what approach you're comfortable with, and find a trainer who uses that approach.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Beside agreeing with Cbrand - I wish you the best of luck - you will definitely need a lot of it too


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi Everyone,
Figured I would give an update and quick replies to some posts on here. Kpoo have to disagree with you. Although they are not human they are my kids, they just have fur. I do treat them like animals but I treat animals differently then the average person and I don't think its wrong. Sorry. I am not a fan of spoiled brats either trust me. I do believe in discipline and not just warnings.
Someone else posted before that if I call her or act nice when she bites she will learn its ok. Now don't get me wrong I understand where you are coming from. However if I don't move or if I show ANY kind of dominance she attacks and will keep biting. To be honest she has bitten me over 20 times now. 
As for the walking away if I turn or walk back or away she attacks. If I get down and call her she kinda gets confused and snaps out of it.
I'd like to skip to the present now if I may. 
I have not consulted a behavior specialist because right now I cannot afford it. They just cost way to much around here to have to keep going back. She has seen my vet. I have spent a lot on her so far at my vet just getting shots, HW test etc. She also is need need of a teeth cleaning real bad and possible removable which I need to save for.
I have tried contacting the person I got her from cause I know she HAS to know the biting issue and just never said anything. She will not email back or answer or return a call. ....Shocker! ( insert sarcasm here)
She is lucky I am the one who took her cause I am sure anyone else would have bounced her again.
The main thing is after getting to know me she has calmed down A LOT! She still has her moments. She gets a bit food aggressive but ONLY towards things she knows she isn't supposed to have like garbage. Regular dog food she has no issues with. Also when someone knocks at the door and I try getting them to be quiet and back I will walk in front of them backing them up and she will attack my feet or ankles. 
She adores my boyfriend and I mean goes nuts when he comes over and cries when he leaves. I am wondering if perhaps it was a female who abused her cause she LOVES men. 
She gets extremely protective of him and will often go to growl or bite me if I go near him on the couch. He automatically yells at her and pushes her off and tells her no. She will not bite him and listens to him. Even from another room. If I can't get her to do something he can. If he is here she barely listens to me no matter how firm I am but she is beginning to start and he always supports me and makes her do what I say. She is getting very good with no biting while here is here though. 
She listens to me when he isn't here though pretty well and is a big love bug. She is a funny little things and now rolls on her back for tummy rubs. She gets moody at night though and still has her snapping moments. She usually comes right up to me after she realizes what she does and licks my hands or nudges me. Almost like crap I'm sorry! I tell her that wasn't nice and she just looks at me with these sad eyes. I don't go to pet her though I don't give her any love until she goes and lays down. Then I will. I really think she is coming around. She has made so much progress in such little time. 
When she goes to bite me now m which is not too often anymore , I kinda just take it. I don't back down now and she stops quicker but still goes at it. I often try to move towards her when she threatens me so she doesn't think I am scared but if I show any dominance she snaps.
She loves to play and loves her toys. She plays with me constantly and mouth open as well. She will have my entire hand in her mouth but soo gentle. She never bites during this time and is as gentle as can be. She even takes some treats now and again veryyy gentle.
Me and my boyfriend have decided to move in together next month. We will be getting a bigger space eventually but she has a permanent home with us. Neither of us will let her go. I think she just got lucky and ended up in the right hands. she even tries to play with the other dogs now as well although they are weary of her after she bit them. 
I hope I can come back and update that she hasn't bitten me since one day but until then I will keep updating.
I thank you all for your advice!!!  If I could afford a behavior specialist I really would. Anything she needed but right now I just really can't. I can get her the basic vetting and whatever else medical or emergency if/when needed but I can't afford a behavior specialist on the spot. Hope everyone understands. Sorry so long!


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Oh my. I wonder if you even realize the liability you have there. You are making excuses for this dog's behaviors and guess what? One day her behavior will be turned on someone else and you will be liable for that damage. Good luck.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

KPoos said:


> Oh my. I wonder if you even realize the liability you have there. You are making excuses for this dog's behaviors and guess what? One day her behavior will be turned on someone else and you will be liable for that damage. Good luck.


I honestly don't believe you read my entire response but think what you like. I don't see how I made up an excuse for her. I never said her behavior was excusable, I said I think she is coming around and I am trying to work with her. I think she has her reasons yes but never said any of what she does is ok did I?
I am very aware of the liability I have thanks. I am not a moron.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I can only say that that dog needs some serious training and an expert evaluation :wacko: No matter how much she "progressed" - she is unfortunately eons away from being a "normal" dog right now :smow: 

Please take her away from other dogs till you get her under control :rolffleyes:. You might be willing to endure constant biting - but other innocent creatures should not be exposed to her aggression - including your human friends :scared:


Best of luck !


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

There has to be a rescue or humane organization near you that you could reach out to and ask for help. Most of the larger ones have behaviorists on staff, and I'm sure they would be willing to help you out to prevent this poor girl from ending up in a shelter (not saying you would do that, but what if that's your only choice after trying to fix her on your own?).

I would contact the ASPCA and ask. The worse they can say is no.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

First I am not a cruel person. I wouldn't let other "innocent creatures endure constant biting". I said I AM dealing with it. The reason I am dealing with it is because if I back up and show fear it gets worse. By showing her I am not backing up she gives up easier. She bit my one dog once and snapped at the other and that is when she first came here. It hasn't happened again. As I said she now tries to play with them and by that I mean follows them and wants to do what they are doing with a waggy tail. She will carry a toy in her mouth and drop it in front of them and do her little backards pounce and bark to get them to play. However because of what she did in the beginning they are weary of her. They do not fight ever and usually all sleep together in the same area. Occasionally if she is sleeping in the livingroom I put the gate up before I leave anywhere but I am usually home for medical reasons.
Second my boyfriend who is saving for rings and moving in next month adores her and she loves him more then she loves me. She doesn't ever try to bite him even if he gets physical with her and removed her from a spot and she listens. He knows what goes on and witnesses it. He is more then mature enough to make his own decisions about taking a risk when around her. If he is going to be my fiance and roommate he is going to have to live with her as well and she will be his as well. In fact he is the one who has paid for her vetting currently. You make it seem like I parade people in front of her to taunt her. What do you want me to do keep her locked in a room away from people and animals and just have no life? How will that help? I think if anything that would make her behavior worse. What kind of life is that? I might as well put her down?!
The people I do let over are my close friends ( and I mean like sisters and brothers to me for well over 10 years) and are all aware of her and willing to take that risk. They are all animal lovers and have rescues themselves and its rare they are ever over anyway. She is baby gated in the kitchen when they do come over however she is very waggy tailed and usually they will talk to her and she is fine with it and does her ballerina dance for them. When they are comfortable and are over for dinner or something she is let out after a while and they just don't touch her unless she comes to them and nudges for pets which is always. She is a very loving girl but she just has her moments now and usually I can read her and know when she is going to bite and what triggers it. Its mostly at night. Not saying she can't do this at anytime but yes its a risk that I am willing to take with my friends. I am not a 16 year old who doesn't know the consequences.
I know it sounds unrealistic but regardless of her occasional biting now I love this little girl as does my boyfriend and she will stay with me until she has to part with this world and it won't be me putting her down unless it was some kind of medical emergency and she was suffering and there was nothing I can do. I would never and could never give her to a shelter. I would euthanize her before doing that to her. I know many don't agree but thats how I feel. I am a big animal lover and animal rights girl. I would never let any animal be hurt constantly or in general. I would throw myself in front of a moving car for an animal. Please know I am doing what I can do as best as I can for her.

Marian,
Thanks for the info and help. I did contact the ASPCA which isn't local here and other humane societies and none of them have any charity type behaviorists or discount anything like that. Only low cost spay/neuter shots. If I give them my info straight out they will make me fill out a bite report and put her into quarentine at a pound or vets office for 10 days. If it happens more then once they put her down. Thats what they do around here. I am an X vet tech and I have had to deal with this a lot from biting dogs and quarentines. I couldn't put her through that. I will not report her biting unless it happens to someone else and they demand it. Unfortunately no one around here can help. I am not in NYC but in the same area. If anyone knows someone who is willing to help or donate time please let me know. I am not opposed. Just can't find anything.

p.s. To the person who asked. No docked tail.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

ShelbyDoo said:


> She adores my boyfriend and I mean goes nuts when he comes over and cries when he leaves. I am wondering if perhaps it was a female who abused her cause she LOVES men.
> She gets extremely protective of him and will often go to growl or bite me if I go near him on the couch. He automatically yells at her and pushes her off and tells her no. She will not bite him and listens to him. Even from another room. If I can't get her to do something he can. If he is here she barely listens to me no matter how firm I am but she is beginning to start and he always supports me and makes her do what I say.


This bitch has dominance issues. She listens to your BF because she respects him. She doesn't listen to you and she bullies you because she does NOT respect you.

Have you implemented any of the training/behavioral techniques I suggested?


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I completely understand that you really want to help and that you do care about that dog - but I wish that you can see that *only proper training *can make her a stable and "functional" dog. 

There are many wrong responses that all of you do with her - and it will only perpetuate her behavior. You must understand that even though you want to help her - you do not know how and making her behave by "avoiding" situations that "set her off" give you a wrong picture. It only seems that she is doing better when actually in the first situation when she feels threatened she will leash out unexpectedly. You say that you do not want to have her isolated - but you are doing just that ( she is behind baby gates ), and you will not be able to take her anywhere until she starts behaving - so prolonging her state - you prolong her isolation.

I will give you just one example of how wrong you all react - you give her pets when she comes and asks for it :doh: - I mean - it is a classic enforcement of dominant behavior !!! 

I am really sorry - I can see that you really care and want to help her and it is very commendable - but she needs a professional help or an owner who is willing to learn proper training techniques that work on such deeply disturbed and dominant dog :rolffleyes: 

Your BF instinctively knows how to handle her shenanigans and put her in her place - why you do not copy him is beyond me ? He does not take any of her abuse and she is crazy about him - and you behave like a delta dog and of course, she is bossing you around (she is biting you less just because YOU learned when to back off instead of OTHER WAY AROUND !) Do you see a fundamental flow ?????

I really wish we could help - but unless you take an active roll of actually training her - there is no help : (((. 

*CBrand *is exceptionally experienced member with fantastic knowledge of not only this breed but dog training in general and if you can not trust her in her opinion - than I do not know how we as a forum can help you : (((


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

wishpoo said:


> I completely understand that you really want to help and that you do care about that dog - but I wish that you can see that *only proper training *can make her a stable and "functional" dog.
> 
> There are many wrong responses that all of you do with her - and it will only perpetuate her behavior. You must understand that even though you want to help her - you do not know how and making her behave by "avoiding" situations that "set her off" give you a wrong picture. It only seems that she is doing better when actually in the first situation when she feels threatened she will leash out unexpectedly. You say that you do not want to have her isolated - but you are doing just that ( she is behind baby gates ), and you will not be able to take her anywhere until she starts behaving - so prolonging her state - you prolong her isolation.
> 
> ...


Fabulous post!


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

wishpoo said:


> I completely understand that you really want to help and that you do care about that dog - but I wish that you can see that *only proper training *can make her a stable and "functional" dog.
> 
> There are many wrong responses that all of you do with her - and it will only perpetuate her behavior. You must understand that even though you want to help her - you do not know how and making her behave by "avoiding" situations that "set her off" give you a wrong picture. It only seems that she is doing better when actually in the first situation when she feels threatened she will leash out unexpectedly. You say that you do not want to have her isolated - but you are doing just that ( she is behind baby gates ), and you will not be able to take her anywhere until she starts behaving - so prolonging her state - you prolong her isolation.
> 
> ...


I'm becoming annoyed. I know somewhere in my post I told the forum, I mimic EVERYTHING my boyfriend does. I also go and be dominant like he does with out thinking and push her off. She attacks me when I do this, anytime I put my foot down and dominate her she goes after me. I AM TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHY! Why you don't get that is beyond me as well.
I am sorry but you are not in my situation and can't see everything. Its easy for you to say what you would do and that you know everything sitting behind a screen not knowing her. You also do not know her past and do not know what will work with her just as much as I don't but I know her better then anyone here now and am trying my hardest to do whats best. I have gotten advice from many people so far both off and on this forum. Not just you and this other person. I have taken and applied all advice as best as I can and only get some results. She is a difficult case. Not every opinion of yours is correct or will work. Please learn that!
No she is not being isolated and being baby gated. I said when my friends come over for their own safety she is locked in the kitchen (which is connected to the rest of the house and where the other dogs are) for their own safety. She becomes extremely excited, overwhelmed and unsure and I wait for her to calm down before anyone goes near her as a precaution.
First you tell me to isolate her then try to put me down telling me I am isolating her when I am not. MAKE UP YOUR MIND! 
I am pretty sure I mentioned before that after she tried to bite she came over and wanted affection like she was sorry and I am pretty sure I also mentioned I wouldn't give it to her. I don't just give her what she wants when she wants it. I am not ignorant and oblivious!
When she is calm and comes over with the other dogs and they are getting their hellos from my friends she gets attention to but only when they are calm. This is actually what I was told to do by my vet and also what is on the show constantly.
Shelby isn't locked up ever , she goes out with me, and goes on walks with me and the others purposely so I can show her she doesn't have to be scared of going places. I try to use their behavior for her to learn as well.

I occasionally SEPARATE them in different parts of the house when I leave but not often and its not like bing locked up.

I am not sure what you expect me to do, perhaps pull $ out of my rear but its not going to happen. I am doing what I can with the advice given. 

I was just watching the dog whisperer and there was a dog that had aggression only towards men. Was a rotti. Reminded me a lot of Shelby. Certain dogs do not react well to being overpowered and wil only tolerate certain sexes because of their past. Watching the show on today gavce me some insight and some hope that its not just me.
You may think I am a weakling and giving into her or something but it doesn't work that way and I seriously doin everything people suggest to me. 
Yes I have tried the "touch" method as well and have gotten bitten when doing the "touch" part but continued and nothing has come of it. She is a special case and just because you have experience with other doesn't mean you know all. I never said I didn't trust anyones opinion on here, its just not all of them work.
I would appreciate your recognition on that. 
If anyone else has more advice BESIDES GET A BEHAVIORIST which I stated many times now that I CANNOT would love to hear it.
I am not opposed to a behavior specialist I just cannot afford one over here!

You also have to understand that in my past I had a completely opposite dog who was attached to me and snapped and turned aggressive to anyone else but me, and I wasn't allowed to leave her side. She was a pit/ Visla mix and was very strong. I had to be firm with her as well but even behavior specialists who I saw would not help her and said they couldn't. She literally broke through a second story window and jumped while doing an excersize of leaving her for minutes at a time. 
I am not an inexperienced dog owner, I have handled many aggressive and non aggressive dogs who need a firm handler. I have rescued a sharpei I found and had to handle her, NOT fun being she wasn't trained at all. I also currently have an Eskimo who was a rescue and if anyone knows the breed they also need a firm handler. He is very well trained and by no one else but myself. I am a vet tech as well and know a lot about dogs but will not claim to know all and always have an open mind. I came here asking advice with an open mind and trying to start from scratch for a reason so I can get others opinions with out my own conflicting. However I would appreciate if you didn't treat me like an inexperienced little kid.
Again I am more then open to a specialist but cannot afford one!! There isn't much more I can do except try other suggestions.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

You did not answer my question. Have you done the following:

1. Tether this bitch any time she was out of the crate. I'm talking ALL THE TIME! She does not get any free time/space until this issue is under control. Tie her to yourself. Don't give her any direction, just let her figure out that she needs to follow or she gets dragged.

2 Hand feed her. She needs to know that all food comes from you. Every piece of food that this girl eats should come from your hand. If she is a fussy eater, make sure that it is high value food like steak, chicken, egg, cheese etc.

3. Implement the "Nothing in Life is Free" training system. Do an Internet search for it. This girl does not get on furniture or beds.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

You do realize that you said, when talking about the Visla, "I wasn't allowed to leave her side." You obviously have the type of personality that allows your animals to dominate you and dictate what you can and cannot do in their world. You are allowing them to take over your life. 

Why aren't you answering cbrand's questions? She is a very knowledgable person and can help you help yourself in this situaton. 

If you watch Cesar Millan you will know that according to him, dog's live in the now not in the past or future. If you believe in him, you will understand that nothing that happened in her life in her past is affecting her RIGHT NOW. It's you that she's dominating because you are letting her. If you don't want to let her, listen to the advice that's given to you here and try to search out the suggestions.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

cbrand said:


> You did not answer my question. Have you done the following:
> 
> 1. Tether this bitch any time she was out of the crate. I'm talking ALL THE TIME! She does not get any free time/space until this issue is under control. Tie her to yourself. Don't give her any direction, just let her figure out that she needs to follow or she gets dragged.
> 
> ...


I can understand not being able to seek a behaviorist, many cannot. This advice is not about that, but what you should/could try. Although you are an experienced dog owner, you have and are dealing with 2 dogs at different ends of the spectrum. One that was dominant over you and aggressive to others, now you have one again that is dominant and aggressive to you or females. Try this, it wont happen overnight but you reached out for help, so don't give up......maybe not everything you agree with and that's fair but you have to be willing to be objective of yourself and step back and see that you think you mimic what your BF does - the dog is sensing something else - a behaviorist to be honest would tell you this very thing. These 3 steps are pretty consistent and they work in most cases. Keep us posted and good luck!


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

And you obviously think you know me and the situation when you don't , so stop acting like you know all. 

For your info the Visla was used as bait for fighting and crated in a closet all the time and the second I showed her love she attached herself to me. I was not allowed to leave her side not because of me but because if I did she would start spinning in circles out of control. When I tried exercises with her that were suggested she snapped, destroyed my house, walls, doors, and jumped out the window through 2 pains of old glass all in a matter of minutes. I am pretty sure when specialists tell you they can't work with her its not me. Get off your high horse thinking you know every situation.

If anyone would like me to answer questions then you can stop thinking I am your own bitch and talking down to me because you will get no response from me that way. 
As for the dog whisperer TODAYs episide itself was about a dog who didn't always livein the "now" and was a special case. He had to rehabilitate this dog in a certain way and it was in no way anything anyone has mentioned as advice on here. Perhaps YOU should go watch it sometimes.
I am sorry but your suggestion is a bit unrealistic and unprofessional. Yea tie a biting dog to myself all day and night. I'm right on top of that Rose!

To those who have pmed me, I do appreciate it and thank you. To those who have suggested ideas and given me links to other places I also again appreciate it. I am done here dealing with ignorant know it alls who talk down to me and question me as if they are some authority figure. Get real!
I hope to one day come back here and show the know it alls that she has become a new dog no thanks to them.
G'night everyone.
watch it sometime. Its about the Rotti he allowed his son to keep. Apparently not all dogs live inteh now.
Please excuse my spelling. I am in a rush to type and sick. Can't be bothered right now.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

...........all that from people trying to help. You are under estimating everyones else's experience it seems and saying screw you versus I don't agree thanks but no thanks REAL CLASSY!! Poor dog!!

Edit: to say I do NOT agree with people talking down to others either........I think it's crap, but sometimes you have to sift through the the suggestions but your last post was aimed at "who knows" I thought I was understanding but apparently not:doh:


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Olie said:


> ...........all that from people trying to help. You are under estimating everyones else's experience it seems and saying screw you versus I don't agree thanks but no thanks REAL CLASSY!! Poor dog!!


I don't think anyone on here has room to talk about class. I already said I didn't agree with what was recently said and already thanked those who have actually attempted to help.
Yea poor dog... Poor dog who got lucky enough to find someone who is getting her medical care and trying their best to help her as opposed to killing her or putting her in a pound. POOR POOR DOG!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ShelbyDoo said:


> I don't think anyone on here has room to talk about class. I already said I didn't agree with what was recently said and already thanked those who have actually attempted to help.
> Yea poor dog... Poor dog who got lucky enough to find someone who is getting her medical care and trying their best to help her as opposed to killing her or putting her in a pound. POOR POOR DOG!


You went off....after my post.....sorry it offended you I WAS agreeing and putting you out there as you have tried at least........so I was trying to turn the thread in a better direction but instead you got ugly SORRY you did not agree. What did I say that lacked class??


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

> I hope to one day come back here and show the know it alls that she has become a new dog no thanks to them.



You might not believe this - but I honestly wish from the bottom of my heart that you rehabilitate that dog - no matter how .... for your and her sake :rainbow:

Nobody in this world is "all knowing" , but some have more experience than others and we can only speak from what we personally know or encountered
in our life. 

We just shared to the best of our knowledge what approach might be working according to your description of the behavior she exhibits.

You obviously also asked other forums for help and, with all opinions combined , you might come up with an unique approach that would help her. 


Best of luck :clover:


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Ollie it was not aimed at you. I think the people who it was aimed for know. Again I appreciated those of you who have attempted to help but I will not be talked down to or treated like a moron.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Cbrand and Wishpoo have given you excellent advise and pointed out problems with how you are handling the dogs issues. You obviously love this dog but you are not helping her in the way that she needs. I agree that you have not taken the Alpha position and this leaves you in a very vulnerable position. I am really affraid for you and others that are exposed to her. In the state she is in now, she is an accident waiting to happen.

I'm really concerned about your comment that if she bites someone else and you are FORCED to report it, you will. That reinforces the idea that you are trying to protect a dangerous dog no matter what. Your relationship with this dog is not healthy and I hope that you will be able to see that. 
_


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _Cbrand and Wishpoo have given you excellent advise and pointed out problems with how you are handling the dogs issues. You obviously love this dog but you are not helping her in the way that she needs. I agree that you have not taken the Alpha position and this leaves you in a very vulnerable position. I am really affraid for you and others that are exposed to her. In the state she is in now, she is an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> I'm really concerned about your comment that if she bites someone else and you are FORCED to report it, you will. That reinforces the idea that you are trying to protect a dangerous no matter what. Your relationship with this dog is not healthy and I hope that you will be able to see that.
> _


You say things a lot nicer than I do, thank you. This is what I meant by a liablity issue. What if she escaped your house by some crazy chance and attacked a child? Some dogs need professionals to help them. I understand you don't have that kind of money but I'd try talking to every rescue in your state to see if they could help you in some way.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

spoospirit said:


> _Cbrand and Wishpoo have given you excellent advise and pointed out problems with how you are handling the dogs issues. You obviously love this dog but you are not helping her in the way that she needs. I agree that you have not taken the Alpha position and this leaves you in a very vulnerable position. I am really affraid for you and others that are exposed to her. In the state she is in now, she is an accident waiting to happen.
> 
> I'm really concerned about your comment that if she bites someone else and you are FORCED to report it, you will. That reinforces the idea that you are trying to protect a dangerous dog no matter what. Your relationship with this dog is not healthy and I hope that you will be able to see that.
> _


Spoo you are entitled to your opinion but remember thats exactly what it is. 
You do not know me or how I am handling anything nor does anyone here except for what I type which I am not very good at. 
I HAVE taken the alpha position but it is not what she needs nor do you know or anyone here knows what she needs.I am here every day and see the changed and the progress not you or anyone here. Again I invite you all to watch the episode of the dog whisperer of the rotti his son in the end adopts. 
Kpoo, I'm a bit tired of the unrealistic suggestions and you have no clue who I have called for help etc. I really wish you people would stop acting like you know me and whats good or bad for her like you know her. I'm tired of the what if's too. 
None of you would be happy unless I had the dog put down or in a shelter where she would be put down. Not gonna happen so get over it.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Wow, okay well good luck with that then. I think people here are trying to help you and your behavior with the constructive criticism is childish. I'm done with this thread. I really hope for your sake and the sake of those unknowing people around you and the dog, you figure this out and rehabilitate her in some way.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

ShelbyDoo said:


> Spoo you are entitled to your opinion but remember thats exactly what it is.
> You do not know me or how I am handling anything nor does anyone here except for what I type which I am not very good at.
> I HAVE taken the alpha position but it is not what she needs nor do you know or anyone here knows what she needs.I am here every day and see the changed and the progress not you or anyone here. Again I invite you all to watch the episode of the dog whisperer of the rotti his son in the end adopts.
> Kpoo, I'm a bit tired of the unrealistic suggestions and you have no clue who I have called for help etc. I really wish you people would stop acting like you know me and whats good or bad for her like you know her. I'm tired of the what if's too.
> None of you would be happy unless I had the dog put down or in a shelter where she would be put down. Not gonna happen so get over it.


FWIW, I think you're doing a pretty good job under the circumstances, but frankly, using aversives with this dog is the WORST thing you could do when dealing with aggression. NO ONE, including myself, has observed your dog, much less in the context of what's going on. Therefore, any and all opinions about what to do with Shelby, with some exceptions, are worthless. She's resource guarding your boyfriend, plain and simple, for example. 


And this statement:



> will give you just one example of how wrong you all react - you give her pets when she comes and asks for it - I mean - it is a classic enforcement of dominant behavior !!!


is a prime example of someone who really means well, however, is out of context with what you were doing, and when you were doing it, so doesn't apply. 

What stands out to me is that this little Poodle has an unknown history, ended up with you, has another new person and new enviornment to deal with, has acted out in fear, shown clear signs of resource guarding (food and human - your BF), and that behavior has improved over time. You've done a good job in being consistent, persistent, patient (earning her trust and helping her feel more secure) and letting her settle in, while using management to keep things safe for your other dogs. GOOD JOB. 

Please keep us posted on your progress!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Here are a couple sites. I google for everything. Truth be told many of us, I know I have not dealt with such extreme circumstances. Many of us are not know it alls and hope to learn from your experience as well, so let us know how thing's are going, if you want. 



http://www.2ndchance.info/aggressivedog.htm

http://dogs.about.com/cs/disableddogs/a/aggression_heal.htm


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Sigh.....


Here is one last piece of advise though I feel as though I am tilting at windmills. You should read a book called MINE! - A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGSby Jean Donaldson.

You may find some useful techniques.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

cbrand said:


> Sigh.....
> 
> 
> Here is one last piece of advise though I feel as though I am tilting at windmills. You should read a book called MINE! - A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGSby Jean Donaldson.
> ...


I think many of you should work on your own behavior before advising someone else how to control their dogs. K poos you might want to go read the definition of "Constructive Criticism". I was not expecting a miracle out of this forum but SUGGESTIONS. Although I did get help from many people which again I thank, the way you go about talking down to people will never get results or ever help. 
I am in no way a behavior specialist but I am assuming 99% of you aren't either and you need to remember that. You may have experience but so do I, and right now I am the ONLY One with who has experience with THIS DOG. I am trying every resource I can to help her but again won't be belittled. 

Thank you all again for the links and other suggestions I will look into them today.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

You need to chill, you came here asking for advice and just b/c you didn't get the answer you wanted doesn't give you the right to start acting like a brat. 

Your methods don't seem to be getting stellar results, so stop being so defensive and consider different approaches.

I do not think that a forum or a television show are the proper places to get advice for what sounds like a very aggressive and potentially dangerous animal. (If you watched The Dog Whisperer carefully it says that several time throughout the program.) As Cdnjenga suggested get an expert involved. You've said many times that we don't know you or your dog, so call in someone who can evaluate the situation in person. Quit making excuses and get help from an expert.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Harley learn to read. Thanks


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Shelby quite making excuses, throwing insults and help that poor dog. I'm wondering if you're realling that thick or just a troll.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Harley_chik said:


> Shelby quite making excuses, throwing insults and help that poor dog. I'm wondering if you're realling that thick or just a troll.


Again learn to read. I will not repeat everything I have typed before. I guess I must be "realling that thick". :rolffleyes:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

:deadhorse: 

:fish:

Maybe start a new thread with a different approach.... this one is going no where.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Agreed


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

ShelbyDoo said:


> Again learn to read. I will not repeat everything I have typed before. I guess I must be *"realling that thick*". :rolffleyes:


Yeah after reading the bolded part of this post, my guess is troll. In one post that is as long as a book this person has said they don't have the time to sit there and defend their actions but yet they have the time to sit and read everyone's comments and make a book out of every post they make. My guess is that this is funny and this person is probably a very young teenager that enjoys getting old ladies all riled up about an aggressive poodle.opcorn:


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Yeah after reading the bolded part of this post, my guess is troll. In one post that is as long as a book this person has said they don't have the time to sit there and defend their actions but yet they have the time to sit and read everyone's comments and make a book out of every post they make. My guess is that this is funny and this person is probably a very young teenager that enjoys getting old ladies all riled up about an aggressive poodle.opcorn:


[email protected]@!!! I am not an old lady....I think we are about the same age  21? Right


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Are you serious... is that all its about on forums? Drama? 
If I were a troll why would I go out of my way to introduce myself , show pictures, help this dog, take pms and more. 
I am not a teenager and am pretty sick of you "older ladies" acting like one!
Give me a friggin break already! I am automatically a troll cause I won't take your immature crap or you talking down to me? Please just get over yourselves already. Its nauseating! 
You really have a way or welcoming new comers and keeping them there.. Really!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

I know how to read. I don't how I else I would've graduated from highschool, and gone to college otherwise. BTW, I adopted a fear aggressive dog from the shelter and he never attacked me, so I don't think I'm the one that needs to learn to read! Bailey has made strides b/c I was actually interested in helping him, instead of being right.


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## ShelbyDoo (Feb 6, 2010)

Apparently college has done nothing for you. I never claimed I wanted to be right. If I thought I had all the answers or claimed to be right I wouldn't have come here for suggestions in the first place genius! Get a grip!
If you read you would understand the reason I am annoyed is because of how I am being treated, but perhaps thats to big of a concept for you to grasp!
I love how just because there is a clique on a forum and their suggestions either don't work or I disagree with I am automatically just wanting to be right and a troll, yet I am called the teenager. Its no wonder I have gotten so many pms because if anyone says anything against you guys publicly they will be bashed and torn apart. You really need lives. Have your last words and feel proud of yourselves. I'm done though I want to end this with one thing. perhaps all of you should seek your OWN behavior specialists.
Bailey keep typing you only prove yourself to be more idiotic the more you do.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)




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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


>


So cute!! I could eat a pancake right about now YUM!


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## Administrator (Sep 16, 2009)

This thread has been reported to the mod team now. Please please get things back on course with the discussion or if you have nothing to add to the original discussion, just don't post.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Thank you Yung! I was a bit slow on the draw today!! LOL
_


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

This might be totally out of left field, but maybe the OP could video her dog's behavior and submit it to the Dog Whisperer? I know it's a longshot, but how wonderful if she could get some free professional help for this dog.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

PaddleAddict said:


> This might be totally out of left field, but maybe the OP could video her dog's behavior and submit it to the Dog Whisperer? I know it's a longshot, but how wonderful if she could get some free professional help for this dog.


_You know this is a good idea! This is exactly the sort of case he would take on. You don't know until you try!_


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Shelbydoo, many people on this forum have given you good advice. I am sure you asked the question on this forum for some helpful advice. Cbrand gave some really good advice. If you want the dog to look at you as the dominant pack member, you have to "be" that. In all dog groups, all wild and domestic dogs, their is a hierarchy, with the alfa dog "running the show" and the others following the leader with respect. It sounds like your girl has a few problems.... one: she does not see you as her pack leader; two: she does not understand proper social skills; three: she is confused about her place in life so she will act out till she understands her place in life and understands proper dog/man etiquette. 

I know, in your mind, you are not making excuses for her behavior, but the way you have responded, it reads like that is what you are doing. You may not mean it to sound that way, but it does come across like that. I know you want your pet to be a family member and that is how it should be, all of mine are, but I am the alfa and they respect that, and I am not the alfa by beating them or abusing them. I am alfa by my attitude of being alfa. I am alfa because they have to sit and wait for their food dish to be set down and told they can eat.. I am alfa because they cannot get into or out of the car without my permission, I am alfa because they have to come when they are called, I am alfa because they cannot go outside or come inside before I go through the door and are told they can also do so. NONE of this was taught by hitting, shoving, pushing or yelling. I taught them to sit, and then asked them to sit when I fed them. If they did not sit, the dish did not get put on the floor... period!.. and it doesn't take more than a few seconds of them looking at you holding their dish, waiting for them to think it out and remember that when they sat, they got fed. AND, they sit happily and willingly to wait for their food with their tails wagging, they wait at the door with eyes excited waiting to be told to come out and then run out and come back to me on their own, waiting for me to go out and play with them. They sleep in the bed with me WHEN they are told they can get into bed, and when asked to "get off" they get off and lay on the floor next to the bed to sleep. A dog that knows where it is in the pack, a dog that knows what it is that is wanted is a happy dog and loves its human companion. 

There are things you can do to help her to understand that you are alfa but still love her as part of your family. Now, I am NOT saying that you have or have not done any of these things I am going to mention. I am going to mention some of the things I can think of at the moment and you can sift through them and see what maybe you have not done/thought of that might help you out.

As Cbrand said, she needs to earn what she gets. In the wild, nothing is "free" and everyone in the pack earns their food and placement in the pack, it is part of the natural balance of the dog. We as humans cannot change this, but need to integrate our lives with theirs by "speaking" their language and teaching them ours. Your girl needs to earn her food/treats.... they need to be hand fed to her by you, so she understands that all good things and all things she NEEDS comes from you and therefor you are the leader. 

First, give her food/treat if she is being nice.... if she snaps at your or growls, calmly take your hand (with food) away from her so she does not get it, then repeat, do this over and over till she does NOT act naughty, then give her the food and tell her how good she is. Do this for ALL of her food she eats! You will be amazed how quickly this will start the change over in her. Then, try making her sit BEFORE she gets her food or treat, if she growls at you.. bites you... ignores you.. then she doesn't eat. It won't take her long to understand that she needs to LISTEN to you to get her food. 

Don't back off from her if/when she growls, snaps, bites.... hold your ground and, if you have to (and I would) grab her by the scruff of her neck and make her lay flat on her side and hold her there till she is completely relaxed... no sounds, no biting.. no moving... all four legs on the floor relaxed like she would be if she were sleeping on her side. This is when you know that she has understood that you are Alfa and agrees with you. Be firm but NOT angry and not causing her pain. She will yelp, growl, struggle, try to bite you... she is only trying to be dominant over you, so you have to calmly but firmly wait her out till she gives in. Understand that you are talking HER language here.. not being mean.... this is the exact way in which the leader of the pack would let another dog trying to test the leader's position know that it is not acceptable and to take its proper place in the pack. IF you cannot get your hands onto the dog to pin her on her side, then you may have to revert to holding her up on her leash, front feet off the floor, till she calms down, then placing her feet back onto the floor and treating her immediately or, if she is still growling but not trying to bite, then pinning her onto her side till she totally gives in. ONCE she has Totally relaxed and understood what you are trying to tell her, then lots of praise and a treat would be great to help reinforce that she is doing the RIGHT thing by NOT biting/growling. 

I also agree, that she should always be on a leash, or dragging a tab (a cut off shorter lead would work.. make sure there are NO loops at the end that can get snagged and she should only be dragging this when in your presence) so you have control of her at all times, so all the time she spends with you is a lesson. If she has a tab on her collar, you can use this to step on if she is growling/snapping at you. She will be confused and may squeal and try to pull away and/or snap at your legs, just stand on the tab quietly until she quiets down and relaxes, then praise and treat. I know it sounds like a lot of work, but if done right, it should not take very long for her to start to understand and then be able to slowly be left free in the house. What she mostly needs to learn is how to be a dog in a pack. Your family is the pack, and she has to understand where she falls in this pack and what is expected of her in this pack. A dog that does not understand what is expected of them is a confused and unhappy dog that will react in one of two ways.. either submissively by squirming and peeing or by aggression which is what your girl is demonstrating. A confident dog that understands where they belong in the family pack and what is expected of them, will not act in either of these two ways.

Every time the dog does something positive, something you want instead of being bad... treat her and praise her. But either ignore the dominant attitude or pin her down if she bites or snaps at you. It won't take long at all for her to figure out she cannot boss you.

When out on a walk, make sure you have a proper collar for her, that it fits right, a choke collar (nylon or chain) is best and it should always be placed so it sits at the top of the neck/base of the head, this is where you have the most control of the dog. You should not be tugging hard or yanking hard on the dog's neck. Every time the dog tries to move out ahead of you; looks at another dog or person and is not paying attention to you on your walk; growls or eye balls another animal or person, then you need to immediately turn in the opposite direction and move that way for a short bit then turn back the way you want to go, even if you have to do it ten/twenty times before she "gets it" and follows you without pulling, etc. Understand that any time you take your girl out till she learns, it will be a training session, not just a walk for exercise. Expect that you will have to work on all walks, even if you only make it 100 feet down the road because you have had to turn the dog away so often and repeat the walk. You may only make it two or three steps before you have to go in the opposite direction. What you want is to divert her attention from what you don't want her doing. WHEN she does it right, praise (not excitedly, you don't want to hype her up, a quietly said "good girl" will work fine) and proceed ahead, proceeding in itself will be praise for proper behavior. 

This girl just does not understand where she fits, has never been taught how a dog is supposed to be a dog. If she had been brought up in a wild dog pack, she would have learned from her mother and how her mother reacted to the other dogs around her and also from the leader of the pack itself. If she had been raised properly in a household before you got her, she would understand how she is supposed be in a human/animal pack. Your girl will understand that you love her by all the nice things you do for her WHEN she is a GOOD girl. She will know you love her and feel part of the family group when she knows where she is IN the group and what is expected of her. 

Now, none of this it is to say you have done or not have done any of it... this is not a complete list of things you could do, this is only suggestions of things you can do to help her be the dog you would like. I hope you things work out well with both of you.

Hmmmmm, sending a video to The Dog Whisperer would be a GREAT idea. You never know, maybe he'd come and help you out!!!


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I was just rereading this thread. I was wondering if you have had her eyes checked by your vet? The reason I wondered is because a couple of times you mentioned she is worse at night and I can't think why this would be. I mean, it definitely sounds like this dog is undersocialized, has aggression issues and some guarding issues but I wondered if there were also some sort of vision aspect coming into play as well.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

Harley_chik said:


> Shelby quite making excuses, throwing insults and help that poor dog. I'm wondering if you're realling that thick or just a troll.


If you had read her posts, you would have known that she doesn't have access to a behaviorist, and why. I'm surprised she's kept her cool as long as she has, consideriing some of the really insulting and condescending posts - especially those from someone - who shall remain nameless - who obviously knows jack about training, and has the maturity level of an ignorant adolescent.


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## poodleholic (Jan 6, 2010)

Shellbydoo, I'll PM you with a dog forum link where there are actual behaviorists and professionals who understand learning theory and training dogs. There are several members who have received genuine help with their aggressive dogs, and no one will "talk" to you like some in this thread.

Here is another very good website: http://www.fearfuldogs.com/index.html


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

I just want to say...

*Respect goes both ways*


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I just want to say...

*jak is one smart cookie!!! *


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

poodleholic said:


> If you had read her posts, you would have known that she doesn't have access to a behaviorist, and why. I'm surprised she's kept her cool as long as she has, consideriing some of the really insulting and condescending posts - especially those from someone - who shall remain nameless - who obviously knows jack about training, and has the maturity level of an ignorant adolescent.


Fur Elite, is that you sporting another name? :doh:


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> If you had read her posts, you would have known that she doesn't have access to a behaviorist, and why. I'm surprised she's kept her cool as long as she has, consideriing some of the really insulting and condescending posts - especially those from someone - who shall remain nameless - who obviously knows jack about training, and has the maturity level of an ignorant adolescent.


Please take it to Pms ! I thought the thread was warned along with a few people already? Its funny how someone could post the above statement but still insist on arguing like an adolescent :rolffleyes: Thread is closed


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