# Di Medici Poodles?? Opinions on breeding standard to mini?



## akbirdy (Sep 15, 2009)

Has anyone heard of them?? They are a ferry ride away from me so I would be able to meet the puppies if she has an upcoming litter. 

http://www.demedicipoodles.com/index.html

It looks like to get the smaller standard they are breeding small standard girls to mini boys. Is this ok??? What about temperament, I heard the smaller poo's tend to be more yappy and high strung? (true, not true?)

Tell me what you think please!


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Never heard of them... Not sure about the mini to standard thing. I guess as long as they're both health tested and it's the standard who carries the litter it's ok. But maybe someone else knows better.

It looks to me like they primarily breed for the pet market. Just a few things I would question:
- Are any of their dogs titled in either confirmation or performance? If not, what is it that makes them of a quality to breed?
- What are the pedigrees behind their dogs? I couldn't find any of them in the PPD (www.poodlepedigree.com)
- Ask for health records (go to www.offa.org to check)

I noticed they do early spay neuter as apparently they get lots of emails from puppy mills/ brokers looking for puppies. I'm not a fan of early spay neuter, although studies have been inconclusive on the effects on dogs.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Looking at the website, I see some red flags. There is no mention of health testing, nor any links where the said test results are posted. The dogs are also not show in confirmation nor do they hold any working titles. They guarantee the puppies for two years only, what happens if the genetic condition doesn't manifest itself until later.  Also, you did see that they spay/neuter the pups before they go home, is that acceptable to you? All in all, I would look for another breeder. 

I am no expert, but breeding standard to miniatures to get the "moyen" size doesn't see to be right. I hope our resident experts will chime in.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

Cdnjennga - we seem to be on the same page.


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

I would not purchase puppy there for more than one reason ...But it is "me".


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## akbirdy (Sep 15, 2009)

See I wasn't sure about the Mini to Standard thing either! I thought a Moyen was just 2 small standards bred, for some reason I would feel much better about this. Could there be issues with the mini-standard thing with mis-proportions of the body? Like a standards torso with mini legs?


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## akbirdy (Sep 15, 2009)

Wish-poo can you tell me why? Not because I want to get a poo from them, there are too many unknowns for me there, but because I want to learn for things to look out for in other breeders.


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## akbirdy (Sep 15, 2009)

The early spay neuter thing worries me too... I'm surprised at how many breeders are doing this.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Ugh..... This breeder sells "Moyens" to Doodle breeders who need an in between sized Poodle with which to breed Mini Doodles (Mini Doodles fetch a higher price don't you know....)

This alone would put them on my no-buy list.

Even if they didn't sell to Doodle breeders, the mixing of varieties is quite controversial. Minis and Toys are not just smaller versions of a Standard. They have different structure. For example, if you blew up a Toy Poodle's head to Standard size, it would NOT look like a normal Standard Poodle head. When you mix the varieties, you are not just mixing size, you are mixing type. You can see this in their Ellie who is Standard sized but who looks like she has sort of a Mini head.

Things are not so bad in the 1st generation, but in subsequent generations I've heard that breeders can get funny sizes: some large and some small and weird things: long bodies, short legs, big heads or snippy heads, misaligned jaws etc. You also open up an inter-variety mix to all of the different health issues of both varieties: Minis have prcd but Standards don't. Standards have Addisons and SA but Minis typically don't etc. Mixing Minis with Standards is the fast track way to change size but it is not the right way. The correct way is to choose the smallest or largest quality puppy and to then slowly each generation increase or decrease size. 

To make matters even worse, De Medici is going to be breeding a Toy to her Standard Poodle. I can't imagine what sort of nonsense this is going to produce. Flame may be 12" but he is not a true Mini, he is more of an overgrown Toy. Here is his pedigree and the web page for the Doodle breeder who owns him and studs him out:

http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=362326
http://www.goldendoodle.net/our_dogs.html

Finally, even if this breeder was doing traditional Mini to Mini and Standard to Standard breedings, I would still question why in the name of God she is breeding creams and reds to browns? This is a HUGE no-no in the Poodle breeding world since it either makes your Browns fade in color or it gives you the dreaded liver pigment on your Creams which is a disqualifying color.

My guess is that she does this to sell breeding dogs to the Doodle breeders. Doodle breeder are always trying to get their hands on creams with liver pigment since these poodles won't produce black puppies (blacks are harder to sell than creams/browns). I almost feel like the De Medici litters are designed specifically to sell as breeders to the Doodle market where they will bring a much higher price.


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## akbirdy (Sep 15, 2009)

Ewww... ya I was wondering what the mini to standard could mess up... I don't know enough about poodle's yet to make that judgment on my own though. That is really kinda sad. That you can take any dogs and breed them to market what you choose, weather it be right or not. '

This is good to know if I do come across any other moyens though. Thanks for all the comments and knowledge poodle lovers. 

I have a confession, the "doodles" were what originally turned me on to a poodle in the first place. But the more research I did on the variety of "doodles" the more and more I began to realize that what I liked in the "doodle" was the POODLE!!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Gosh... I hate being right (scroll down to the boy at the bottom):

http://www.creamofthecropgoldendoodles.com/Gentlemen/Gentlemen.html

I wonder how much De Medici got for this puppy. On the Doodle breeder boards, I think going rate is around $2500 (US).


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

Birdy : )

OK, I tried to skip why LOL, I do not want to step on anybodies toes. BUT - first, "contract" is just ridiculous. Buyers should be aware that sale contract is legally binding document - not a "promise" - I almost rolled laughing on the floor. Her "contract" warranties are also 6 times shorter in length than what she asks in "return" from you. Second - 2 year is just too short. Third she has never mentioned test results of her dogs. Fourth - she is already making all possible scenario in which she will NOT follow the "promise" . She might say you let your puppy go down the stairs too many times while still too young for stairs and that's why his/her hips are out of position , I mean , "falling on the head" story unnerved me - not that it can not happen, but what if your pup really develops epilepsy ??? How will you prove you "did not drop" your pup ???
Just silly ...anyways...where I was ? Aha, she also stated about "why she choose poodle" - she said " ...before we decided to rise dogs..." - so she got a poodle ONLY to "rise" dogs which means - she decided to breed just for the sake of breeding and making money. She took care to go into the niche of potential buyers that are just looking for a medium, non shedding dog.

How she did it - by breeding standard with mini. Voila !!!! Now, as I wrote before - those breedings are done occasionally (although VERY rarely) if breeder wants to involve new genetic pool or correct size of the line. BUT, it is done with great care and research and thought.

Puppies have mismarks in coloring - again - sign that no planning is behind - just production of pups for quick sale ...

I can go on and on : ( , but I hope it gave you some direction. I have to run out of the house now ... sorry if post is "hodge-podge" : ( 

PM if you want some extra info . If you want pup from Canada- go here 
!!! : ) http://www.classiquepoodles.com/welcome.htm


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Gosh... I hate being right (scroll down to the boy at the bottom):
> 
> http://www.creamofthecropgoldendoodles.com/Gentlemen/Gentlemen.html
> 
> I wonder how much De Medici got for this puppy. On the Doodle breeder boards, I think going rate is around $2500 (US).


Way to track it down Cbrand!

I just do not get Goldendoodles and Labradoodles. When I scrolled over some of the photos on those websites, they just look so odd and poorly put together. The puppies are cute (of course!) but why anyone would pay so much money for an odd hybrid looking dog is beyond me...


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

akbirdy said:


> See I wasn't sure about the Mini to Standard thing either! I thought a Moyen was just 2 small standards bred, for some reason I would feel much better about this. Could there be issues with the mini-standard thing with mis-proportions of the body? Like a standards torso with mini legs?


If I'm not mistaken, red standards were bred up from minis recently. They're still being worked on, but this is an ongoing process that's been going on for what.. 20-30 years?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

cbrand said:


> Gosh... I hate being right (scroll down to the boy at the bottom):
> 
> http://www.creamofthecropgoldendoodles.com/Gentlemen/Gentlemen.html
> 
> I wonder how much De Medici got for this puppy. On the Doodle breeder boards, I think going rate is around $2500 (US).


I'm sorry.. I just find goldendoodles hideous =/


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I'm sorry.. I just find goldendoodles hideous =/


They look like "sheep dogs" to me. LOL. 

I don't understand why people do it. I guess the better question would be what is the "negative" in a standard poodle that they are trying to get rid of when they breed to Labs or Goldens? I can see the "negative" in the Labs or Goldens being the shedding fur (and yes, *I* know there are no guarantees about fur outcome when mix-breeding). I mean, why not just get a standard? 

Now I realize, my standard is only 5 1/2 months and with the week I've had with her (grumble grumble not her fault, of course it's ours, but ugh), I think it's mostly common puppy behaviors, albeit tall puppy ones. :rolffleyes:


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## wishpoo (Sep 12, 2009)

They are trying to get rid of the "poodle stigma" LOL For us that love and know poodles it sounds ridiculous, but we have to understand that 99 % of the people cringe at the thought of owning a "frou-frou" dog . They are represented as such in every movie , commercial or photo-shoot and there is no way that public will start seeing them in different way. Continental cut does not help either ; ). I bet that NOBODY but breeders and true poodle lovers know the origin of the cut and WHY is it that way !

The disrespect for this breed is more present here in the USA -in Europe it is not looked upon "down" at all. Actually poodle is often seen as a status symbol and because it is such elegant dog it is also "fashionable" to have one by your side ! 

The image of a poodle in the USA is not going to change any day soon. 

Why people love the look of a Goldendoodle or Labrad. is a personal preference - I mean, I have harder time getting how one can find Pitbull or Bull Terrier cute and appealing in ANY way :scared: !?!!! But many do !

The biggest and actual problem with doodles is that dogs are bred for profit and profit only and that is just plain wrong : (((( !


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Okay this is the second Klein/Moyan poodle breeder that I've seen that does early spaying and neutering. I want to know why. Why are these people spaying and neutering their puppies at such an early age? You want to know what I think? I think they are doing it so they stay smaller. People are going to them for a "smaller standard" poodle. If you are taking the main hormone producing organ away from the dog at a very early age, most likely it's going to not complete it's natural growth. The dog will never know what gender it is if you spay/neuter early and I personally think it's cruel not to allow the dog to have it's gender producing hormones until it matures some.

From what little research I've done this Klein poodle thing is an actual breed in Europe and not just bred from a standard to a miniature and if that's what they are doing it's not a true Klein poodle because the standards and the minis have different personalities and temperaments.

When I look at these people's website, I see people that are marketing a smaller standard poodle to make money. This sort of thing aggrivates me because it really lowers the breed standard and makes people that are honestly sticking to the standard and the rules before breeding have a harder time selling their puppies.


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## taxtell (Sep 17, 2009)

I am going to throw my two cents in here as well.

I work as a veterinary practice manager (I do tech work too), and I see doodles (less now, but still) pretty frequently. The most unfortunate part about them is the fact that they are often WAY too much dog for the people that end up with them.

The owners think they're so adorable and non-shedding (yeah right) and 'designer dogs'...and then they end up with a boisterous, BIG puppy that needs a ton of work. These dogs more often than not end up running over the owners and just being a big, hyper mess. Then the owners get frustrated and give them up. I've seen it more times than I'd like to.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

taxtell said:


> I am going to throw my two cents in here as well.
> 
> I work as a veterinary practice manager (I do tech work too), and I see doodles (less now, but still) pretty frequently. The most unfortunate part about them is the fact that they are often WAY too much dog for the people that end up with them.
> 
> The owners think they're so adorable and non-shedding (yeah right) and 'designer dogs'...and then they end up with a boisterous, BIG puppy that needs a ton of work. These dogs more often than not end up running over the owners and just being a big, hyper mess. Then the owners get frustrated and give them up. I've seen it more times than I'd like to.


I don't know why they end up so big but I saw this doodle puppy when we were looking for a house. This large hairy dog came running up to my kids and I and I thought it might be a soft coated wheaten terrier (I'd never seen one) and she said no he's a goodlen doodle. The golden standing there was gigantic which I know isn't normal for goldens but this one was. They do seem to be very hyper dogs.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Okay this is the second Klein/Moyan poodle breeder that I've seen that does early spaying and neutering. I want to know why. Why are these people spaying and neutering their puppies at such an early age?



A Standard sized F1B Doodle brings in around $1500. However, for a "Mini" Doodle that promises to ends up around 17"-19", breeders are charging and getting around $2200-$2500. 

To produce Minis or even smaller sized Standard Doodles, Doodle breeders need Mini and Moyen studs. Moyen breeders are charging as much as $2000 more for intact males with "breeding" rights than they are for poodles sold to a pet homes.

In the AKC world, Poodle breeders can sell puppies on limited registration. This keeps any yahoo owner from going out and trying to breed AKC registered poodles behind the breeder's back. 

Doodles are not a registered breed. There is nothing to stop an uncrupulous Doodle breeder from buying a pet Moyen and then using it as a breeder. Early spay and neuter makes sure that people pay top dollar for any breeder.

One of the interesting things about the whole Doodle breeding fad is that it has created a strong market for male Minis and Moyens. In the past, breeders needed to worry about people breeding bitches behind their back. Now it is the boys who are in hot demand because they are used to breed to Lab/Golden and F1 Doodle bitches.

Any Poodle breeder who has Brown, Cream, Apricot or Red Mini boys needs to be very, very careful where their boys go.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

I just don't get the whole "doodle" thing.  I see lots of golden and labradoodles in San Francisco and they are just a dumbed down, unfortunate version of the poodle. They are often huge, bigger than Standards and labs and goldens. They are uncoordinated, really hyper and just all around dumb, unmanageable dogs. I don't get the fascination at all. I recently saw and ad for golden doodle puppies asking $2200. :scared: These pups weren't even cute!!!


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

The goldendoodle in Bella's class was enormous, and hyper. Cute like a huge teddy bear, though.


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