# puppy mills!



## Carmen (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm wondering if anyone can tell me the kennel names of puppy mills that breed the standard poodle?
I want to know what names to look for in a pedigree. I'd like to avoid the health problems that tend too come along with the puppy mill breed dogs. And I DO NOT want to support a puppy mill.
i'd also like to try and avoid as much heart ache as possible for my children. They have already been through so much in the past year.

I know Kimbertal is a puppy mill that produces other breeds, but I'm not sure if they breed Standards. 

Thanks in advance


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Carmen said:


> I'm wondering if anyone can tell me the kennel names of puppy mills that breed the standard poodle?
> I want to know what names to look for in a pedigree. I'd like to avoid the health problems that tend too come along with the puppy mill breed dogs. And I DO NOT want to support a puppy mill.
> i'd also like to try and avoid as much heart ache as possible for my children. They have already been through so much in the past year.
> 
> ...


There are MANY!!!!! And be careful calling a breeder a mill in public. There are differing opinions on what constitutes being a BYB, and though I think most of us are in agreement about what makes a mill a mill except for a few circumstances, if you cannot prove it, it can cause you a tremendous amount of grief if they decided to take you to task. Maybe ask for people to PM you names, and their opinion of why they think they are a mill.


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## Hektor (Apr 16, 2011)

Which are the caracteristics of a p. mill?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I would think it would be a commercial operation breeding many litters a year. Usually these dogs live in deplorable conditions and are not exposed to life as we think of it for a dog. They are not fed good quality food. They are there for one purpose and one purpose only...to reproduce. Usually, not always, they breed many different breeds of dogs. Here in Ontario, the Mennonites are reknowned for being millers as the Amish are in parts of the US. Dogs are considered livestock and are kept in buildings not exposed to sunshine, outdoor exercise, love. They are bred every heat, and the breeders do not necessarily know who the sires of their litters are. The females might be kept in pens with several males where they are basically raped constantly throughout their heats. If there are problems like mastitis or breach deliveries, the breeders usually tend to these issues themselves, and poorly, to keep costs down. I saw a video on the net where the breeder does her own C-sections with no anesthesia on the Mothers. It is as ugly as it gets!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Respectfully - In order to be taken to task there must be a hardship caused and PROVED and a financial loss proven. I agree throwing around some language is touchy but so is stereo typing ikes! 

That is clearly a factory set up.

My suggestion is look at the breeders that appear reputable and meet best practices and work from that versus delving into the mills and byb's. Seems that would be much harder to find. A good breeder will NOT have this running in their lines. Maybe tell some people here what you are looking for in your next dog. I got both my dogs off of recommendations from here. I am sure people will point you in a good direction. 

Good luck with your search.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

It would be wonderful if future puppy owners would be selective and chose puppies from breeders who are truly giving back to the breed. 

Search the thread and you should find some really good guidelines.

Testing is the minimum that a breeder should do.

Best Wishes


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## Carmen (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm a member of other dog breed forum's and they have no trouble with publicly saying Kimbertal is a puppy mill. If I'm legally approached, I'll have plenty of other persons that also agree and publicly do so. I'm not worried.

I come here to learn more about this breed. I want to know what puppy millers are out there. I'm asking for peoples opinions, opinions are opinions and not facts. I'm merely asking what kennels others here believe are puppy millers. Again it's only their opinon they'd be stating if they chose to do so.


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## Carmen (Apr 27, 2011)

Also, I know I may be new to this forum, but I'm in no way new to the dog world. But i know you guys dont know that, so I thought I'd throw that out there. Also, in saying that, i feel i must also say that I am not one of those know it alls either. I am here to learn. 
I know how to find a reputable breeder. I am merely trying to do some research. From the kennel names I am given, I will do my own research and form my own opinion.


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

You'll find few people willing to publicly list breeders that they personally consider mills. Too many breeders secretly watch this forum. However, you CAN use the search bar on this forum to search any unfamiliar kennel names and read the opinions others have posted about their knowledge. 

"Puppy Mill" and "bad breeder" are not universal terms... it seems everyone has a different definition. My personal red flags are snazzy sites (or poorly done sites with badly animated.gifs) with "order now!' Buttons Anywhere on the site. I also crossed out breeders who used kennel facilities instead of keeping their numbers low and fostering where necessary, so all dogs could experience daily life as a cherished family member. These are just personal qualifications. 

Once you find the perfect breeder, your guard will drop a little as you realize that not all breeders are out to deceive you and take your money. A truly outstanding breeder will be recognized in the ring, by her puppy buyers, and even by her competition. Look for names you recognize in your pedigrees, and google or search here for those you dont. That method lead me to a truly awesome breeder that i trust wholeheartedly.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Also, there are lots of high volume breeders that have snazy sites. They will have a different webpage for each breed they have to sell. I learned that here when one webpage looked really good only to find out that they are a higher volume "Doodle" breeder. So, instead of asking what are the Millers, high volume instead when you find a "breeder" you are interested in then ask us here & there are plenty of knowledgable people on this forum that can say they would or would not purchase a pup. I think that is a better way to ask an opinion. Aslo, just throwing out there what you are looking for & asking for opinion is good as well. For example you are looing for a toy dog for agility competition. Then others on this forum can say look at "this breeder". Something to that affect would go well.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

in addition to all that has been said before, its hard to give names of puppymills, because a lot of them do not have "kennel names" per se and more and more are using bogus registries to get around the AKC inspections and fees (it cost much less to register a litter with the continental kennel club than it does for the american kennel club.)

If the fire gets too hot for a miller, they change kennel names (if they have one) and sometimes locations. all of this makes it extremely difficult to track them.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with Olie and 3dogs...Instead of collecting names of people/kennels who are considered puppymillers... why don't you just search for a good reputable breeder? 
If you know how to find a reputable breeder you should have no problem finding a good poodle breeder  
Also, I can't think of any "famous" poodle millers that jumps to mind as quick as the word "kimbertal" does for dobes. I think poodles has become integrated into just about every puppymill out there who has "oodles" (anything bred to a poodle). 

I've learned not to judge a person by their website... I know of many good AKC reputable breeders who have done a lot for the breed that do not have sites or who does not have the greatest site around. 
I also recently had an experience where puppymillers had a great site with pictures of their house and play area for dogs that implied a 5 star vacation for dogs - when they were finally "found out" no one could believe they were puppymillers.


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