# obedience collar



## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I am sure someone who is a trainer will chime in here, however I do know that if these e-collars are used incorrectly on an already agressive dog it can actually make a dog more agressive than they already were. Use with caution and only under expert direction.

I wish you good luck.

Viking Queen


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## TStrainer (Jan 13, 2016)

I think you should first do some more research on how dogs learn. There's no such thing as "alpha," that theory was thrown out a long time ago and the original researcher who coined the term even asked his publishers to stop circulating the study. Nowadays the accepted method of training by the American Veterinary Society of Behavior and the ASPCA is positive reinforcement and not using aversives like shock collars to modify a behavior. 

If your dog is truly aggressive, the shock collar could make it worse. You may need a behaviorist if the situation is indeed serious. 

In what situations would your dog become "overly aggressive?" Be as specific as you can.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would look into training methods that are not based upon aversive punishment. A shock collar works by hurting the dog enough to stop the behaviour - it depends upon getting the level of pain exactly right, having absolutely perfect timing, and being consistent in delivering the shock. Do you really want a relationship with your dog based upon hurting her? Are you prepared to lose her trust and confidence in you? Do you know why she is being "aggressive - perhaps it is through fear, or anxiety - and are you sure hurting her will make things better rather than worse? Training sounds like a very good idea, but I would try training that is built upon reward and kindness, rather than fear and pain.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I also would wonder about the circumstances that led to blood letting. Also whose blood, person, other dog? You may benefit from having a behaviorist with a real credential (graduate work, etc.) look at the things you are concerned about before trying to fix the behavior with a tool that should only be used if you understand its use very clearly and have excellent timing for using.

I do have electronic training collars but *I don't use the shock setting ever!* I use the tone as a way to signal a marker for a correct behavior done at distance when I am teaching distance behaviors and the vibration to give a marker for an incorrect response at distance for a behavior the dog already knows well. I only use these collars when I have very controlled conditions to make sure that I am conveying the information I want to convey. I tested the vibration on myself before putting the collar on that setting on a dog. It is surprising, but most certainly not painful. I think of it as the equivalent to saying knock it off and pay attention when distractions are calling louder than work.

My e-collars also have a bark limiter feature that uses the vibration only. It can tell me if there has been lots of barking since it "records" how much each dog wearing one has barked. I use the bark feature very rarely, mostly like at this time of year when the windows are open and there is lots of wildlife on the lawn setting off more than usual amounts of commentary from my crew.

If one were to use the shock setting incorrectly you will not be giving a -R mark, but will be marking nothing meaningful which will make things worse not better.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

These collars are an aid to training and not a replacement for it. They are properly used as a replacement for a clicker with greater range. I would endorse the remark: _*Do not use the shock function*_ unless you are a very experienced trainer or under the instruction of a very experienced trainer. With a dog showing aggression this is likely only to intensify that aggression.
Eric


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I recommend reading this: 

The Problem with Shock Collars


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## jcris (Feb 19, 2015)

Hello everyone,
I still have not used the e collar and wonder if I ever will. When I posed this question I should have been more clear. I don't intend to use the shock function at all. There is a vibration mode that I can use at various levels to get their attention. That is really the only way I can envision using it. I value my girls way to much to ever intentionally hurt them. I've become complacent, read lazy, about their training. When they were young I was pretty fired up about having the well trained animal. But as time has moved along I've gotten used to them and how they handle most situations. For instance, being off leash where there are no cars in an area that is safe is rarely a problem. They do run out of eye shot but always return albeit not on command. That's the one behavior I really want to improve. I want them to come right away when they hear my voice. I know if I work more consistently on that they will improve. One of my girls, Belle is almost completely deaf. So with her the vibration collar I believe is essential. She see's fine but hand signals aren't always enough. My other girl Princess hears fine and Belle always uses her as a que to what is going on. If Princess hears something and takes off to investigate Belle follows. Princess can be stubborn and willful. She knows that the reprimand for not obeying is not much so she takes advantage and comes when she's ready, the little knucklehead haha. My girls are very much inseparable and I love that. I need to work with them to improve their mindfulness. I realize I didn't follow this thread and should have. I re-read it this morning and realized it left some holes as to my intention and use of the e collar. I'm inclined to go forward with the collar and use it sparingly and try to be consistent about it's use. My girls are great, I don't want them getting hurt because I was unable to call them away from trouble. Thanks for reading along and as always I love this forum and the great interest of folks in it
best regards,
Jcris


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Please read the article posted by Poodlebeguiled. It's short and to the point. I believe only very experienced persons and trainers should use e-collars, and only under specific circumstances.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

I have a suggestion you can try--if it works, great, and if it doesn't, it won't hurt anyone or set back your training.

It's a tip I picked up from watching/reading Norwegian trainer Turid Rugaas, who is phenomenal at explaining canine body language.

Keep your dog on leash, as she probably already is. When approaching the other dog, insert yourself between your dog and the other dog. With my dogs, I use the leash or signals to move them to my side away from the other dog. You might have to hold a collar to keep them in position.

Ms. Rugaas explains that this tells the dog, using body language, that you're taking charge of the encounter or situation. She also says (as I recall) that if you don't adopt this position, and especially if your dog runs out to the end of the leash toward the other dog, that your dog feels that (since you're not stepping up as a leader), it is left to her to manage the encounter. 

Notice I'm careful not to use "dominant" or "alpha," neither of which apply. Basically, you're saying to your dog, "I've got this--relax."

I find it to be a mostly successful technique, and I've had plenty of practice with my bossy girl Bridget, and now more often with the big poodle. When body language isn't enough, use a "treat magnet" (like a piece of hot dog) on your dog's nose to lead her past the other dog and out of the area. That's what I do at dog shows when there's little room to maneuver between crates and dogs.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Excellent tips, Marguerite. I do these things with Maizie when she's afraid of, say, a barking dog in somebody's window when we're on a walk, and is about to get reactive. Works really well.


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## jcris (Feb 19, 2015)

unfortunately I can no longer access links from within pages. My browser or win 10 have conspired against me. I need to spend some time getting that sorted before I can get to that post. Drat!
Jcris


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

*Here's the article copied*

The Problem with Shock Collars 


November 17, 2015 / Brittanie Pivinsi

By Angelica Steinker, M.Ed., PDBC, CDBC, NADOI Endorsed, CAP2

It isn’t that shock collar training doesn’t work, because it does. The question is at what price? Some extremely skilled trainers may be able to offset some of the problems shock collars can cause. However, shock collars are for sale at almost every pet store making them readily accessible to the general public. A shock collar can potentially lead to very serious problems if not managed by a skilled trainer. There are a multitude of other powerful training options including obedience, behavior management, and positive reinforcement.

Malfunction 

The first potential problem is that the unit itself may malfunction. Malfunctioning shock collars can cause electrical burns, creating holes in the affected dog’s neck and causing serious physical and emotional damage. To prevent this from happening never leave a shock collar on an unsupervised dog. This presents a problem for owners who use in ground shock fencing which makes use of a boundary that shocks the dog if they cross it. By design this particular type of shock collar is left on an unsupervised dog.

Logistical issues 

Any clicker trainer can tell you timing and reward delivery are mechanical skills. When you are a clicker trainer if you click late or fumble to get your treat you haven’t done any harm. Learning may be delayed or the behavior may not be quite what you wanted but you have not hurt the dog. For effective shock collar training superb timing is needed, a skill that even very few professional trainers possess. Another logistical issue is to be effective the collar must be on the dog, this means the dog will become "collar wise" i.e. they will learn when the collar is on and when it is not. Many dogs would rather run through the fencing and endure a shock than avoid reaching other dogs or people. For these dogs the underground shock fences are ineffective and for the unprotected people, children and dogs the situation is potentially dangerous. In addition users of underground shock fencing can forget to replace batteries making the shock fencing ineffective.

Abuse 

Shock collars can too easily lead to abuse. Many people don’t want to hurt their dogs. Thus they set the shock at a low setting which is typically ineffective for stopping the undesired behavior. They then raise the setting and again this is ineffective. So the setting is raised yet again. Since the dog is exposed to the pain gradually, the surprise effect is lost and the shock may not be effective at all.

As trainers we must understand that some people feel powerful when punishing a dog. When a person of this type is given a shock collar it can lead to a vicious cycle of abuse. Many professional trainers have seen dogs "housetrained" with shock collars. In one particular case a terrier had learned to avoid urinating in front of humans, not a useful concept when you want to housetrain a dog. The professional trainer who rehabilitated this dog had to work months to undo the damage that had been done to this small terrier. Without the use of a shock collar she housetrained her and placed the dog in a loving home where the owners adore her and are committed to training without pain.

Side Effects 

The primary reason shock collars are effective in stopping behavior is because they hurt. The problem is that when you train with pain you have unwanted side effects. These side effects are called fallout. Murray Sidman, a famous behavior analyst, wrote an entire academic text on the topic which those looking for a thorough exploration can read (Coercions and its fallout). Fallout is when we use shock that will be associated with both the trainer and the training process causing stress for the animal. That stress can then be associated with the behaviors we are training, with the equipment we are using, the training field and of course with the trainer.

Slow work and Frantic work 

Dogs who are shocked during training are stressed. In a scientific study dogs who were trained with shock displayed stress signals when they were approaching the training area. This behavior is the opposite of what we want as dog sport enthusiasts. Dogs that are trained with shock will frequently work slowly and deliberately. They are over thinking and being very careful to avoid being shocked. If the punishment of the collar outweighs the joy of the sport, they won’t love their work and won’t do it with speed and happiness. Of course highly skilled shock collar trainers can force a dog to work quickly. It’s simple. If the dogs work slowly they are shocked if they work fast they avoid the shock. In behavioral science this is called negative reinforcement. The dog’s behavior makes a bad thing go away, so the behavior increases. It does work, but it does not make the happy attitude that training with positive reinforcement does.

Stress 

The bottom-line is that shock can cause stress. In a well known experiment Stanley Milgram showed that shocking another being is very stressful for most humans. Professional trainers should be familiar with Milgram’s obedience to authority studies. Authority carries with it power, and that power is something that should not be exploited. The reality is that if you have credibility people will comply with even abusive training instructions.

A dog who is shocked for several different behaviors may go into a state of shut down, or a global suppression of behavior. Owners may mistakenly assume the dog is now "trained" because the dog is suddenly very quiet and not doing anything. In reality this dog is afraid to do anything. The ultimate step of the global suppression of behavior is learned helplessness. This occurs when the dog fails to do anything, curls into a ball, and gives up. Many who work with rescue dogs have seen the traumatic and long lasting effects of learned helplessness.

Aggression 

A dog that is being hurt may become aggressive. If a dog has a history of aggression the use of a shock collar is particularly dangerous. Aggressive behavior should NOT be punished (suppressed). When you punish a dog for aggression and you don’t teach a substitute behavior you simply hide the problem. You then open yourself up to a much bigger problem where without warning the dog may become aggressive. You may have punished the barking, lunging and growling, so the dog may go straight to biting which is VERY dangerous.

Shock yourself 

Shock collar users often attempt to argue that the shock doesn’t hurt. For this specific reason I bought a shock collar and used it to shock myself. It does hurt. It is common for underground fencing companies to put the shock collar on the lowest setting to show the owner the shock sensation. Do not be fooled, a shock collar works if it hurts.

E-Collar 

Many shock collar supporters use euphemisms for shock collars to soften their image. They call them e-collars, training collars, e-touch, stimulation, tingle, etc. They do this to avoid the fact that shock collars shock.

Ideal training 

The ideal training methods prevent unwanted behaviors before they ever occur. Trainers read their dogs’ subtle body language signals to avoid stress which may lead to aggression or fear. Ideally a trainer never sees the unwanted behaviors in the first place. They play with their dogs instead of forcing behaviors, thus deepening their bond with their dogs. They act instead of react and their dogs love them for it. Most widely recognized associations in the world forbid the use of shock collars. A well informed trainer should not need to use shock. Sports, tricks, and training are supposed to be enjoyable and reinforcing for canines and humans on their own merit without the use of force. Let’s make training and competition fun, and shock free.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't think that any of the people here who wrote about using electronic collars ever advocated for using the shock, just the tone and vibration modes. When I use mine I check them on myself to make sure they are working properly before putting them on the dog.

Most people don't need these kinds of collars, but for situations where the trainer is using them properly or if the dog is in danger of being killed by not using such a device I don't think they should be rejected out of hand. I know no one here has been anything less than thoughtful in what they've written here and we can have our differences of opinion. However I am of the view that no tool, not even a martingale collar, should be used without proper knowledge (both pros and cons). There are pros and cons to all tools and methods. Information is key.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I use an ecollar on Hans for the beep and vibrate settings. Previously, I was using whistle cues with him but he responds so much better to the beeps, I assume because the beeps are a more consistent sound than the whistle. I use one beep for remote sit, two to turn him when he's quartering, and three to recall him. The collar is harmless used like this, and much nicer than a loud whistle.

Also, I disagree with the statement that the term "ecollar" is a euphemism. It _is_ an electronic collar - it does quite a bit more than just shock. It's a whole different beast from the old shock collars which had fewer levels of adjustment (so the dog was getting hit with more shock) and no other features.


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