# Question on Ian Dunbar's Book



## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I only played around with Dunbar's feeding advice because it just wasn't practical for me. Kibble was not high value enough for training my dogs. I did feed them some of their food in the Kongs though for enrichment.

Yes, I would put a non-spill water bowl or metal bucket (preferable, clips on) in the crate. Your pup should have 24/7 water access.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

You measure the correct daily ration for the pup's kibble for each day and put some in a kong or other chew toy (our dogs don't like kongs, but do like Westpaw Toppl toys). You hold the other kibble aside for training and if you reach "dinner time" and still have kibble you hand feed it to the pup so it learns to appreciate that good things come from your hands until you have nothing left. Javelin never ate anything from a bowl other than kibble he stole from the older dogs when he had the chance until he was almost five months old. I am pretty dumbfounded that none of the people who you have spoken to about this couldn't figure out that you have to measure how much food you give a puppy to make sure they get the right amount of food (overeating gives them diarrhea so you don't free feed puppies). Yes you put the stuffed chew toy in the crate. It will help the pup to appreciate the crate as a happy space where fun stuff happens (oohh if I play with this it gives me goodies, so being here is cool). It isn't that food in a bowl is bad for a puppy or that they don't understand what a food bowl is about but rather that using food the way Ian suggests makes it a tool that builds a better dog out of the blank slate that a puppy is when very young than happens if you just dump food in a bowl. 

Both of my poodles will work for kibble type treats (although I don't generally give them such since I home cook for them). Puppies who don't know there are better treats in the world than kibble tend to be happy to work for it when they are young.

The puppy should have water freely available (although I think it is okay to withhold water overnight) and a clip on water bowl is the best way to make sure it doesn't get spilled. Remember too that Ian doesn't really want you just to have a crate but a crate and an ex-pen attached to the crate or enclosing it as a longer term confinement area. Water can be in that longer term confinement area.

Ian's true deep goal in his writings and other outlets are to make all puppies into great and well loved dogs who stay in their first homes as forever homes. His deep understanding of canine social development drives his views on how to raise puppies. I am a great fan of his and feel very privileged to have attended a number of his seminars and workshops and to have had the chance to get to know him personally. His methods are based in science and sound. They do produce dogs that are well developed to cope with all that life offers. This doesn't mean that puppies raised other ways are guaranteed to fail at life, but following his methods as fully as you can greatly enhance the odds of growing a super reliable and wonderful dog out of just about any puppy.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Hi Lily, any concerns if the puppy were fed using a food bowl while at the breeder for the first 8 weeks in terms of adjusting to having all their food in their chew toys? I just want to make sure I don't starve the puppies. I'm guessing if it take a while for them to figure out that the food is in the chew toys, that we can just hand feed?

So you transition to a food bowl when they are 5 months old? Just want to make sure I understand that right.

The people I spoke with are just so surprised about the idea of not feeding from food bowl. I think the idea is so foreign that they haven't thought that through.

Yup, I am planning to have the long term confinement area also. I've expected to put water bowl in that. I was just scratching myself re the water bowl during the times the puppy is in the short term confinement area, which she will be in most of the time the first week as we work on housetraining her.

I loved his 2 ebooks. What he is saying makes sense and I do plan to implement as much of it as I can. I am reading the book a second time right now. I know I have some more questions and I'll post it after I go through the books the second time.

One other question I have is Ian Dunbar's approach vs. Puppy Culture. My breeder uses puppy culture so I am curious to know more about similarities and differences between puppy culture and what Ian Dunbar teaches.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

No problem with switching where the food comes from. Javelin ate out of a bowl with his litter mates and then was hand fed and fed from puzzle toy after that. The only reason I switched him to a bowl specifically at around 5 months was because my summer break was over and our daily routine changed. If I had been home all day still I would have continued with more extensive hand feeding. He still had some hand feeding and some feeding from a puzzle chew toy. You measure the amount of food that is appropriate and you make sure the puppy eats it all. In other words if it is 6:00 PM and there is still food to be eaten do what you have to to get the puppy to finish it before you start to settle him in for the night.


I am not as familiar with puppy culture as with Ian's work, but I think the goals are the same in aiming for well socialized pups that grow into adults with super reliable temperaments that cope well with new things, odd things, changes that are sudden or startling and the like. I have a feeling Ian probably like puppy culture since my understanding is that it is meant to offer many social experience opportunities to puppies. When I have heard Ian speak he has often focused on the importance of breeders not keeping puppies isolated from new and different experiences.


You may find it interesting to look at this thread about the Ian workshops I have been to. https://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/100970-ian-dunbar-seminar-workshop.html


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I also read Ian Dunbar's e-books and followed some of the recommendations. I used food balls for kibble, partly to keep my puppy busy as I prepared for work in the morning. I also left him with frozen kongs in the morning when I departed, and gave another over lunch as I ate. It has been suggested to me more recently that I implement the "nothing for free" through hand feeding meals when my adolescent spoo becomes inattentive.

https://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/nothing-life-free

Dr. Dunbar has some Ted Talks as well. I enjoy his comparisons between dog training and raising a child.

This is the type of ball that I used for meal time, though I have several others (kong, etc.):

https://www.petsmart.com/dog/toys/b...A-BPA - Medium - Hardgoods - Dog | *Catch All


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

We've used those starmark balls too scooterscout. They are good and durable. Lily and Peeves had tons of fun with them in their younger days.

I referenced this above. https://www.westpaw.com/dog-toys/puzzle/toppl-treat-toy For Javelin I started with a small one and then switched to a large one. After that you can put them together with the open top of the small one in the opening of the large one (scroll though the pictures on the link). Then the kibble only comes out the side holes and the dog has to work harder for it. They also can go in the dishwasher.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Thanks for the responses. I've read the Ian Dunbar thread a month ago. I probably need to read it a second time like I'm going through his book a second time.

So I want to make sure I understand. I can stick with stuffing his food in his chew toys forever plus handfeeding and don't ever use a food bowl?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes, sure you can feed from toys and hand feed for training for as long as you want. You may want to have a bowl around for part of the food eventually so that if you ever have to board your pup it will be easy for the people caring for him to feed him.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I got my dog when she was almost a year old. I have fed almost all her meals from my hands or puzzle toys like Kongs ever since (2 years). She gets most of her food during training.

Occasionally if I'm very busy she will get all her food in a bowl. Food is food to her - however it's dispensed she loves to eat it.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Variety of Poodle would make a huge difference to me in this. I'd not handle a Toy or even really small Miniature as the book suggests, due to dangers of hypoglycemia. A Spoo seems more doable if someone is home a LOT in the first weeks and months. Dr. Dunbar is wonderful, and he is a true expert, just I'm concerned about blood sugar levels in the very wee ones.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Couple of questions regarding equipment.

1. Do you use the same crate for the short term and long term confinement? Is it a lot easier if you have 2 crates (1 you leave near the back door for the short term confinement and the other you leave in the expen)? Or just use the same crate and move it back and forth?

2. For the crate, which of the following type of crate do you recommend?

http://a.co/d/6zN5AJA

or

http://a.co/d/h0ujLme

Sorry for all these basic questions. First time dog owner and don't have any experience with any of these.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is easier if you have two crates to do the short term/long term confinement. Also I think you do have to adjust your idea of how long is long if you have a toy or otherwise very small pup that has risk for hypoglycemia. However crates bought new aren't cheap and are heavy if you have one that will work for the lifespan of a large dog like a spoo.


I personally prefer wire crates for puppies. It is easy to use a wire crate and attach the ex pen to it to make a slightly larger space for an older pup. Also once you no longer need it every day you can fold it down and get it out of the way easily. However they are heavy and lugging a large one around to shows and workshops as I do for Javelin (who is not great in a soft crate) is a challenge.


I always tell my human students that there are no stupid questions except the ones that don't get asked and where the failure to ask leads to a performance failure. Ask away. It is a lot of work to take in all of the various schools of thought on puppy raising and figure out what you want to do.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Another question.

I am planning to follow Dunbar's approach to housetraining - using crate and taking puppy out to potty every hour during the day. He also emphasized that you don't want to risk any accidents as that sets up the puppy for failure (errorless housetraining).

So my question is if you are using the crate training method for housetraining, at which point do you know that the puppy is now ready and you can stop keeping the puppy in the short term confinement area, letting her out every hour? Wouldn't an accident indoor (or lack thereof) be the sign whether the puppy is housetrained or not? How can you know that if the puppy is not allowed to have accidents?

Hope my question makes sense.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

There are two issues at play regarding house breaking. The first is whether the dog understands that it is not acceptable to relieve itself indoors. the second is whether the dog is neuromuscularly capable of holding its bladder and bowel against pressure to relieve itself. Those two things are definitely not the same and almost always do not occur at the same time. Unless you have a puppy that is as dumb as mud they will figure out that you want them to relieve themselves outside long before they can resist urges. The neuromuscular development to "hold it" generally develops between 6 and 7 months of age while smart puppies will figure out that going outside is good and going inside is not by the time they are 3-4 months old. The trick in the in between time is to keep routines of going out on waking, after meals and after indoor play and maintaining a watchful eye over the pup in between along with watching for and heeding potty request signs from the pup. Sometimes these signs are obvious like standing at the back door (loking, scratching, whining and barking potentially all included) Sometimes those signs are very subtle like disengaging from play, trying to sneak away or just glancing at the door. Whether obvious or subtle you need to believe your pup when they tell you they want to go out. Getting potty on command can help with issues of just asking to go out and goof around.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

So if I understand it correctly, the short term confinement and letting out every hour approach is to achieve the first goal of training the dog to understand that it is not acceptable to relieve itself indoors. However, there is still the issue that even if the dog understands it, he still has to physically develop the appropriate bladder control (6-7 months old).

If it takes a dog until they are 3 to 4 months old to understand that it is not acceptable to potty indoor, does it mean I have to do the crate training using short term confinement and letting out every hour for the next 4 to 8 weeks (if we get her at 8 week/2 months old)???


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

The time between letting her out increases as muscular control increases. Every hour is only for a short time. 

An alternative to crating is to tether her instead. This means she is attached to you on a leash all the time. She won't have the opportunity to have "accidents" and you will quickly learn the signs that she needs to go out. It has the advantage that she learns to pay attention to you and where you are going, and she is involved in everything that goes on during the day. When you are unable to pay close attention to her she would go in her crate.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Thanks for the info. So if I take the info from this site: https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/training/puppy-potty-training-timeline/

It states this: Use the month plus one rule. Take the age of your puppy in months, add one and that is the maximum number of hours that your puppy should be able to comfortably hold it between potty breaks. A 3-month-old puppy plus one equals 4 hours that she should be able to stay in her crate without a mess.

So maybe first week would be every hour, second week would be every 2 hrs, third week would be every 3 hrs, and by the time you are at 4th week (when puppy is 3 months old), it would be every 4 hrs? After that, hopefully they understand the concept of where it is acceptable to potty. And if I understand it correctly, the idea is not that they will be in the crate the whole time only to be let out every 1 to 4 hours. The idea is that after they go successfully potty, you can play with the and even let them loose in a controlled area of the house, and then crate them again after a while during the period in between the potty breaks. Right?

Thanks!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that the hour per month +1 rule is a more than a bit hopeful, especially for small-breed puppies. As Catherine says, the knack is to know when they are likely to need to toilet and to give them every opportunity of doing it in the right place. They have very little control over their bladders at 12 weeks. I came to the conclusion that the best way was to keep them away from carpets and to pick up any precious rugs, then to take them out on waking, after eating and after playing, watch for the first sign of circling or squatting in between, and invest in a good enzyme cleaner for the almost inevitable accidents. The crate or pen is for those times you cannot be watching, but I would not crate a baby for more than 45 minutes to an hour at most during the day. If you force them to toilet in the crate by leaving them too long then you risk undermining the instinct not to soil the den, and making the whole house training process more difficult. Night time is different, but even then many pups will still need a trip out in the early hours up to 16 weeks or more.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Plan a schedule but be adaptable. The long term confinement area is for when you can't watch (and not just to prevent house soiling but also chewing on wires and other such mischief). Preventing mistakes is more important than the schedule. Lily had very few house soiling mistakes when she was young, but she was an only dog when very young. BF was home with her and took her out frequently. Peeves came a long a few weeks later and he tended to have more mistakes even though BF was still home with them because it was a snowy winter and at that younger age he didn't get out as often as Lily had. Javelin was a summer puppy and rarely was without a person around for more than two hours. He honestly never made mistakes (not once) because I was diligent about watching for potty signs and getting him out the door asap when I saw them and also always took him out after eating and playing.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi

You're asking good questions and getting lots of good info. You're going to do great  

I'm not promoting anarchy here but do want to say this to remind you not to forget to relax and have fun too. You're getting a puppy!

“The code is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules.” – Hector Barbossa

Remember and work with the intent of the lessons and put your own spin on when necessary. There's going to be mistakes which everyone will survive. There's going to be laughter and love that you will share and always remember. It's going to be an amazing ride.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Good news is that we don't have any carpets and rugs at home bec of kids' allergy and asthma (hence why we are getting a poodle).

You should have seen the amount of research I did before we had our first baby. I'm a little more relax right now with prepping for a puppy, not only just a tad more...  Ian Dunbar's book is my version of "what to expect when your expecting"...

We get our puppy the Sat after thanksgiving!


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Another question regarding the long term confinement area. I already bought a crate that's the right size for our puppy for her short term confinement area. I've setup another area in the house (in the guest bedroom) for her long term confinement area using another crate and xpen that my friend gave us. However, this crate is big (36" crate) and it doesn't come with any divider. Do I need to figure out how to make a divider in this crate or can I use it as is as this is for the long term confinement area with the xpen attached to it and a potty pad in the far side of the xpen? I plan to put the puppy in this area when we are out and have to leave her for more than an hour with the crate door open to the xpen so she can come in and out of the crate.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Here's my setup right now. We have hardwood floors so I put a big plastic sheet underneath and rubber square mats on top of the plastic sheet. The crate is tucked in the closet to create that "den" atmosphere. I plan on putting the potty pad on side nearest the bed (bottom part of the picture). Comments and thoughts?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I might see if you can jury rig a divider at least at first while your pup is sorting out the potty vs. sleeping area thing. You can try feeding her in that larger crate to help her to understand that the crate is not the potty.


You are doing a fabulous job getting ready. That is one lucky puppy.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

I'm driving my wife nuts. She thinks I'm too obsessed with the puppy.

Thinking about the divider, I may just do a cardboard box that I put at the back of the crate to act as a divider (essentially blocking the back 2/3 of the crate by putting a box in it). Will that work? I don't think the puppy will mess up the box at this stage I think (at least for the next several weeks until she learns the potty area and I can then open up the full crate to her then).


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think a box would do just fine, just make sure it fits on the snug side so she can't squirm around and end up stuck between it and the sides or back of the crate.


Two thumbs up on the set up.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

We brought home our new puppy (Ember) and the first day isn't going as planned. She was great on the 3 hr ride home. I made 1 pit stop and she didn't go. When we got home, I took her to the backyard first and she went #1. At that point, I was thinking that this isn't going to be that hard. After that, I tried getting her into the crate. When she realized that I closed the door behind her, she started getting frantic clawing at the door so I let her out. 

I played with her some on the couch and she went #2 on the arm of the couch (I didn't recognize the sign, I thought she was just walking back and forth on the couch).

I then took her to the expen. She liked that until I left the room to get her water. She started whining then. When I got back after only a few seconds, she already went #1 and not on the potty pad. She will only stop whining when I go insode the expen with her.

I take her out to the backyard (very cold weather with some sprinkles) every hour. She would start jumping up on my legs, or sit on the grass shivering. But she never went potty. I wait for several minutes and then bring her in.

I put the kibbles in the Kong. I would try to roll it around and she would go for some of the kibbles that falls out. But she hasn't really tried to play with the kong to get the food out.

Not sure what we are going to do tonight. My wife said to just bite the bullet and put her in the crate even if she whines. I'm afraid if this will give her a negative impression of the crate.

Sigh, I've read the Dunbar's books twice, along with a lot of other articles. I didn't realize that it doesn't tell me what to do in the first day when the puppy hasn't adjusted yet.

On the positive note, the puppy is very social, loves to cuddle and interact with all people.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it is important for the pup to know you are close enough to touch for the first few nights - it is certainly easier for you both to get some sleep! Unless she has been trained already to know what pee pads are you will need to show her - lots of praise and treats for using it. The first few days are always difficult - so much to learn about each other - but it will get easier as you get into a routine and learn to spot her signals.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Sigh, we did put her in the crate in the guest bedroom all night and ignored the whining. When I went to her early this morning, one of the worst scenario that was going through my mind while listening to her whine came through. She had poo (and I'm assuming pee) all over the floor of her crate that she has been laying down in all night. There was even a few pieces of poo outside the cage that I assumed she flung out.

So everything Dunbar said to avoid happened already in 24 hrs. I'm still trying to get her to just eat out of a Kong rather than a food bowl. Not sure now if I should just use a bowl for now and get her to an environment that most resembled the breeders (food bowl and expen).


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would go with what is familiar to her while she settles in. That means same food, same bowl, comfort of company at night, and keeping things as calm and soothing as possible. Remember puppies don't read the books! She is a baby, and needs time to get used to all the changes. I would sleep in the guest bedroom with her for a few nights, if you don't want to bring her crate into your bedroom, and have her sleep somewhere where you can put a hand out to comfort her if necessary. Expect broken nights for the first few weeks - pups are like babies and it takes time for them to be able to hold on all night - another reason for having the crate close to where you sleep so you can get up to take her out when necessary.

I gave up on crating very quickly and took my pups to bed with me. Because they felt warm and safe and comfortable they only ever woke when they really needed to go out, and I woke at the first wriggle and took them out immediately. I only recall one or two accidents in all the puppy months.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well this is the reality of a puppy. She didn't read the books and she is very confused right now. No worries though, all is not ruination for a couple of fails in the first day.


I think as fjm suggested someone should sleep near her in the guest room to help assure her that you are there for her. Take baby steps with everything to help her adjust. Only take her out if she is likely to need to go (on waking, after eating/drinking, after play) and that will help her to start to understand to only go outside. Wash the crate well with Nature's Miracle and then rinse with water and dry so it really has no smells to allow her to think it is a potty spot. If you do want to use potty pads try putting her on one when she is likely to need to go and then if pee leave it or if poo pick that up but leave the pad so there is some of her own scent to tell her to head to it.


I would work on teaching her to play with the kong. Roll it for her so she sees kibble come out of it. Also use a portion of her kibble for training basics like attending to you. She may also need her kibble soaked a bit with water for the near future.



You will get this, just try not to freak out.


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

Hey Baseball, I'm just here to say don't freak out either! Things will not always go according to the "manual". I have a new puppy too ( 4 months old now) and a Dunbar crate/expen setup a lot like yours for during the day. I can tell you if I add up all the things that I have done wrong that allowed accidents to happen I would probably get a failing grade ( and I've had many puppies before but all are a little different). Things will get better!

l did what fjm suggested to you the first few nights. I spent the nights in my guestroom with the crate right next to the bed. I wanted my husband at least to get some good rest! When I did heard the puppy move around I got up, carried him outside, then back in crate. After a few nights I put the crate next to my bed and still carried him out in the morning. I also fed him in the bowl at first to prevent too many changes, then slowly moved more and more to the kongs and training treats. I still use the bowl for small amounts of breakfast and supper so he learns the routine of my other dogs.

Raising a puppy is challenging! You sound like you have done all your research and homework so follow it and be consistent. But .... it will take some time! Don't get frustrated ( yeah that's hard ) and GOOD LUCK!
She sounds like a really sweet puppy


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## JenandSage (Mar 9, 2018)

Hi Baseball! I get it!! 
Like StormeeK my puppy is just 4 months old. She was shipped to me by plane in a crate so you can imagine what she thought of it! But, she is the pup I wanted from the breeder I wanted so I’m very lucky.
I’m not going to lie - the first two weeks of crate training were challenging. Not at night. I let her sleep on the bed with me the first 2 nights because I felt so bad she had flown in the crate. Plus she was exhausted and tired so it was no problem. 
I also loosely have followed Ian Dunbar’s schedule this time. I have learned a few things
-This forum is very helpful and everyone’s advice is useful to try
-They are right, the dogs don’t read the books
-All of the crate training guidelines are great if you are off work and have all the time during the day to go at your pup’s pace — didn’t work with either of mine in the day. As soon as the kongs (multiple) were done, they cried. But I really had to go to the store or to work...
-It does get better! We are 5 weeks in and I have no worried whatsoever!!
- We had a few accidents along the way but often it was me giving too much freedom ( I have an older spoo and they do play so I wasn’t paying attention) 

I imagine it is better already Guess what? I am 5 weeks in and Saffron rarely cries in her crate in the day and she can switch between either crate or my bed at night. Pretty smart girl! We are working on Relax on a Mat

I think every dog will be different as well. My first was not food motivated and didn’t eat his food or find stuffed kongs or chew toys exciting except for a brand of very expensive bully sticks... I didn’t know how to get him excited about chew toys and there were other reasons he didn’t love his food. 
I couldn’t get Saffron (puppy) used to the ex-pen set up. I don’t know if it’s because Sage (older dog) is loose in the house and she could see us too well it doubled the desire to be out? Either way I decided to do Ian Dunbar’s “confinement” time either in her crate (works fine now but it took 2 weeks), tethered to me, or both dogs on a tie down on their beds with treats stuffed in kongs. I am lucky she is very food motivated. 

How is it going? Believe it or not we had a poop accident tonight, but I missed the cue. Like Catherine says, it can be subtle. Because of the layout of my townhouse she disappeared towards the front door (out of line of sight) but I missed it. I had put peanut butter in the Kong. The last time I did that, in her first week here, she also pooped in the crate so maybe it’s a bit rich. Either way I won’t do that again!! That’s the only issues other than the odd pee in the first week or two. I definitely take her out every hour and after “confinement” or play, or nap, when I am home. 
Jen and Sage and Saffron.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Sorry for freaking out yesterday. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement. It did get a lot better yesterday and last night.

First off, I focused in the morning in getting Ember to recognize the freeze dried liver treats. Then I used that to get her in and out of her crate. She still doesn't like it when I close the door behind her and would start whining. I didn't crate her during the day except for those training sessions. The rest of the day, we were able to watch her all the time and I took her out every 1 to 1.5 hrs.

Now that the weather is better, she would now pee when I take her out and she also now appreciates and gets excited for the treat I give her. I also discovered that she does better without the leash. When I put the leash on her the other day, she would get distracted by it. We have a fenced in backyard and she always just sticks by me anyway.

We did have a problem with getting her to poo when I take her out. One time, after I took her in when she was done peeing outside, she had a poop accident in her playpen. I learned later on in the day that (1) I do not know her pooping schedule (the breeder texted me in the afternoon with that info after I told her of the pooping accident), and (2) I need to wait longer when I take her outside when it's around poop time. The accident happened on schedule, and I would probably have avoided it if I waited longer when I took her outside. She finally pooped outside later in the day (we all had a big celebration). Outside of that, the only potty issue that happened is that she peed a little in her playpen when it wasn't even an hour after we last took her out. But it was on the potty pad so I can't really classify that as an accident, and she was playing with my kids. She may have been excited and the kids didn't see any sign of her needing to go potty. They just saw the potty pad wet. 

When bed time came, I did sleep in the guest room where her crate is. My friend also stopped by yesterday to give us a stuffed animal with heartbeat to put in the crate. I don't know if it's the stuffed animal or me being there but Ember whined for around 3 min and settled down after that. I did take her out in the middle of the night whenever she starts whimpering. It ended up being around 4 trips (bet 1 to 2 hours in bet trips). She did poop in 2 of those trips (yay!).

We have church this morning and my play is to leave her in the playpen with the potty pad. We are normally gone for 4 hours but I'll come home in the middle to take her out potty. I considered putting her in her short term confinement but based on last night's schedule of her needing to go every 1 to 2 hours, I don't want to risk making her wait for 2 hours. We'll see what happens.

It was just frustrating and demoralizing yesterday morning to find her in her crate full of poop after I thought I have prepared as much as I could and read as much as I can, esp when I think of how long she was forced to lie with her poop and wondering how much damage I've caused to her training by making her poop in her crate...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The occasional freak out is why we are here! I am glad things are starting to feel more organized now. I wish you nothing but forward progress, but will say you should be prepared for 2 steps forward, 1 step back, 4 steps forward, 3 back and such, 4 forward, 1 back.... If you add my numbers though you will see the general direction is forward.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

...although there will be weeks when it may feel like 1 forward and 10 back, so don't despair!

And don't forget, in the anxiety of remembering how long since the last meal, and the last pee break, and crate training and all the rest, that puppyhood lasts for just a few short months, and it is important to enjoy it and have fun together.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Past 3 nights were a lot better. I'm still sleeping beside her crate in the guest bedroom every night. She would willingly go into her crate now at night when she's tired. As long as someone is in the room, she would be fast asleep in a few min w/o whining. Last night, after going to bed around 10 PM, I took her out to pee at 3:30 am, at 5:30 am and then at 7 am. I think we could have skipped that 3:30 potty as she was still laying down and was reluctant to get out of her crate. I went ahead did it just to be safe. Tonight, I will try to see if she can make it all the way to 5:30 am.

I found this amazing website that gives more details and step by step on how to crate train. It has helped me a lot the past several days. I think what that article has that Dunbar's book doesn't are more details on how to transition the puppy the first few days and weeks. It's more of a "Dummy's guide to puppies and crate training" compared to Dunbar's book.

At this point, I am now on step 3 (putting her in her crate during the day and stay in the same room but not sitting right beside her crate). We are still having accidents at home. It happens during the 15 sec when she is out of her crate and we don't have our eyes on her. Now I understand why Dunbar said that the puppy should be crated when you are not directly playing, training and engaging with her. I'm hoping I will get to a point in the next day or 2 of leaving her in her crate while I go to a different room, and then be able to leave her in her crate alone at home by next week for a few hours at a time...

Being able to crate her now is amazing, even when I still have to be beside her. It allowed me to present in a 3 hours video conf call this morning while she was behind me in the crate on the floor quietly snoozing the whole time. I find that her crate time gives me much needed respite from constantly monitoring her and engaging with her (and fending off her sharp teeth) whenever she is out of her crate.

With regards to her potty training, she has her peeing accident when she happens to be in the few area in our house that has a rug or carpeted (house has mostly wood floor). But it seems like we are having more accident with poop. Whenever we take her outside, she would go pee and then want to go back in. I would try to stay out there longer hoping she will go poo. Sometimes she will, but more often than not, she wouldn't. And then 15 or 30 min later, he will have that poop accident in the house... I think the best solution for this is to be more stricter with crate time whenever we can't actively monitor her and engage with her.

Lastly, whenever we take her out, she would almost always pee. But most of the time, she would just squat and I don't see the pee coming out. Part of me wonder if she is intelligent enough to pretend to pee so that she can get the treat. But if that's the case, she would be having more accidents inside (which isn't the case). Our friends and vet told us that whenever she squat, she is definitely going. It's just that it can be as little as a few sprinkle...

Anyway, that's the update. I've enrolled her in puppy class first week of Jan after she has her 2nd set of shots.

Oh, one other thing. I tried putting the leash back on her tonight when I took her out and she absolutely hated it. She would keep on biting it and would go crazy until the collar slips off her (the clasp on the collar that she came home with comes off if tugged hard enough). I think I'll fight that battle later on after I get through potty training and crate training. Only so much I can do right now...

Here's some pics. First pic is from the first day she's home. Other 2 pics is of her in the crate during the day. You can see in one where she is completely on her back with her belly showing...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is a splendid update. Thank you for taking the time to let us know how things are going. Keep up the good work and you will have a dream dog.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Ember is giving me serious puppy flashbacks to when Noelle was little. So adorable. I am really happy for you. You'll get the potty sorted and the crate too. Enjoy your first puppy class. Let us know how it goes and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.


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## JenandSage (Mar 9, 2018)

Sounds good Baseball and good job Ember!
Remember someone’s advice here with 2 steps forward, 1 or 2 steps back sometimes. Random pee accident tonight in this household 
Felt like a potty training failure until I read this thread again and chalked it up to a step back and a bit of inattention to timing/ she just couldn’t hold it
I ordered Susan Garrett’s crate training program a few weeks ago. I’m ashamed to say I haven’t started it until tonight. Just read the plan and will start tomorrow when I have time. Crate at night or with me there fine, but I don’t think she loves it in the day and I need to have a place for her that she’s relaxed in and not bugging my older dog (or me if I am busy).
Jen, Sage and Saffron


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

Oh I remember the crate training. Renn is now good in his crate, he will sometimes put his feet down if I put him in at a odd time, he likes schedule. We were lucky I guess never an accident in the crate, I did use a divider . I later found out he liked to sleep on his side stretched out, when I took the divider out (or made it bigger) he slept much better. I think he howled in there for about 3 weeks. Finally one night I was so totally exhausted I didn't take him out for his mid of the night pee, he held it and never cried again. He goes in at 8:30 at nigh sometimes 9 and sleeps thru to 6:30 (it takes me act 30 min to let the littles out and fed). Then its Renns time, we go for a walk he does all his potty, comes in eats and is tethered to me while I'm on the computer. If my husband isn't out wandering about I give him some off leash time. Around noon he goes in his crate for a two hour nap then back with me again. He usually will have another crate time in between. AT 4:30 he eats and we go for a walk then he comes and watches tv with me before bed. He had I think two poo accidents when training and they were both after our walk when he was running free. When I realized his baking in my face meant he had to go out again, I added in a 2nd morning short walk and he went o outside , since then we do 2 walk and never again another accident. I think I learned his routine and then it was smoothing sailing, as they say.


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## baseball (Aug 13, 2018)

Talk about 10 steps back. After a couple of days of no accidents in the house, Ember had 4 poop accident in a row between the night before and yesterday morning. It's been raining here all that time. Whenever we take her out for potty, she would pee and then want to come back in at once even after we try to stay out for a few min longer. 5 to 15 min later, she would poop in the house. So far, it's been on our hardwood floors so cleanup is easy. The rain stopped by noon and she is pooping outside again so far... 

On a positive note, we are able to leave her in the crate and go to a different part of the house now. So last night, I didn't sleep with her and left the crate in the normal spot in the kitchen rather than the guest room. She slept from 10:30 pm to 5:30 am without waking up and whining. I finally got to sleep in my own bed! When I went down at 5:30, she was already awake and just sitting there in her crate... ?

Hopefully, she will do the same thing tonight... 

I tried brushing her with the slicker and comb. I was surprised to see how afraid of the brush and comb she is given the fact that her breeder is a groomer. I need to figure out how to get her to let me brush and comb her.


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## StormeeK (Aug 3, 2015)

Sounds like overall she is doing well! Rain is tough if they don't like it. My adult poodle likes the rain but the puppy not as much. It's been raining here so much more than normal too. I use my husband's giant golf umbrella when puppy needs to go out and he has learned to go under it. Not sure if this was wise since I will not be out with an umbrella when he is older. Right now I'm just trying to prevent accidents though. Hope things continue to go well.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Pooping in the rain is hard for a lot of puppies. You're on the right track, going in the right direction! Keep it up. Grooming is a huge part of poodle life, so go slowly and keep it happy. Sniff the brush, treat. Stop. One stroke. Treat. Stop. I did 98% of Noelle's real grooming while she was asleep as a puppy, and only pretended to brush her while she was awake. By pretending to brush her, I didn't have an agenda of getting anything done. That way I was able to focus exclusively on teaching Noelle to accept grooming.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes relieving oneself in the rain is not on the top of the fun things list for Lily. She used to disappear from view and then come back and promptly sneak down to the basement to do both pee and poo when it was raining. She was old enough to know better and to hold her bladder and bowel. I fixed it by having potty on command and taking her out on leash so she could figure out that if she went quickly she could get out of the rain quickly too.


Stick with the program. It will all be fine.


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