# Is this a reputable breeder?



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome!

First glance was "Yay! Health testing!"

Second glance was "Oh, not merle!"

This is why








The merle poodle by Barbara Hoopes


I found this on Facebook, where Barbara is a huge source of information about poodle genetics. *** Barbara Hoopes Everyone keeps asking me about Merle poodles, so I am summarizing literature research I did below. I am making this post public so it can be shared. I am a professor of Molecular...




www.poodleforum.com





For more information on this just use Search with keyword "merle".


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

Run away from Merle! At best it means they are ignorant of genetics. Even worse they think they can beat genetics. At the very worst they don't care and just want to make money.


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

Can someone explain to me the difference between PennHip and OFA and why a breeder would use one, the other, or both? In the case of this particular breeder it looks like they used OFA on some and PennHip AND OFA on others - notably, the ones marked as "fair" by OFA also have PennHip... does that means anything? 

Also, correct me if i'm wrong but with PennHip you're looking for a score closer to "0" than "1" and that mid range (.4-.6) is borderline and not really desired for breeding? Is "Fair" OFA considered acceptable for breeding? 

The breeders i used for my boys did OFA on the parents (all scores of Good or Excellent) so i don't know and spent about 30 seconds on google to find out what PennHip even was. From the limited searching i did, there are mixed views on PennHip as well. Knowing the difference and why a breeder might use both on some dogs but not on others might be an indication of something for the poster on this particular breeder (and for my own curiosity) at least in terms of the health testing.

Otherwise...

It's good that they DO the health testing. That's a plus. I would want to see the testing scores on the sires used, as i don't see them on the planned breedings page. I would also ask a little more about their health testing in general - some dogs are Cardiac clear, others are not. Why? There are some "pending" scores as well. Have these dogs been bred, even with pending scores? Also: some PennHip scores are in the .4-.5 or higher range which... my limited research says isn't that great? I thought that the closer to "0" the better?

They also only have a one year health guarantee. My boys, who had all testing results on parents in the Good or Excellent range, had/have a two year guarantee. I was under the impression that 2-3 years is about average. Why only one year for these pups? The dog won't even be fully mature at a year. 

Merle is also always something to be super wary of with any breed - the pattern can carry health risks, from what i understand, especially when bred to other specific colors/patterns. The breeder would have to know a lot about genetics to be able to avoid these problems and it can be hard to tell which breeder has this knowledge. The risk alone is why most breeders avoid merle. 

I was also under the impression that some people think merle is not naturally occurring in Poodles and had to have been at some point bred in by mixing somewhere along the line. But i'm no expert on it. Just things i've found online. Do with it what you will. If i'm wrong, someone please correct me!

I was also under the impression that it's a BYB thing to charge based on color, pattern, etc. There is a HUGE jump in price from around $1,500 to $3,000 for non-breeder puppies and nearly as big of a jump in breeder prospects. They mention conformation being a factor in pricing as well, but none of their breeding dogs have any titles so i don't know how they judge conformation or how they determine what is breeding or non-breeding quality. 

Which is another point to consider. They don't mention showing/tilting or any accomplishments. So on first glance the only reason they have to be breeding these dogs is: size (tend to be breeding smaller), color, and pattern. Which are all BYBer flags IMO. I don't see show/conformation, or any titles. I don't see any obedience titles. I don't see any therapy dogs. I see cute pets with some health testing, which.... is better than SOME breeders but not the greatest.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Just no to merle, since it means another breed has been used somewhere along the way to introduce this color pattern which is not anywhere in the history of 100% pure bred poodles.


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## EJStevenP (Oct 27, 2021)

TK9NY brings up some good points. They talk about conformation but don't have anything to back it up. That combined with the price jumps according to color/pattern is a big thing too.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

TK9NY said:


> Can someone explain to me the difference between PennHip and OFA and why a breeder would use one, the other, or both? In the case of this particular breeder it looks like they used OFA on some and PennHip AND OFA on others - notably, the ones marked as "fair" by OFA also have PennHip... does that means anything?


OFA hip tests can't be certified on a dog younger than two years. Pennhip can be done quite early and is supposed to provide fairly conclusive results even when done early. However, the dog must be anesthetized during the imaging process, and the imaging needs to be performed by a certified specialist. So, the cost, the hassle of getting the dog to a specialist, and the risks of anesthesia would all be a concern. 

Some retriever lines have around 1/3 of dogs eventually developing dysplasia. If I was breeding a retriever from those lines, I would evaluate a puppy with PennHip before sinking any money into professional training and show titling. With a 30% chance of the dog washing out with bad hips, I'd want to know early if I should cut my losses. 

While hip dysplasia is found in poodles, the rate isn't nearly as high as in other large breeds. If I had a puppy from a line of dogs with good hips, I'd feel relatively safe raising and campaigning the puppy without subjecting the little guy to anesthesia. The two year OFA screening would probably be a formality rather than a source of unpleasant surprises.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I would not go with this breeder. There are better, more ethical breeders who sell dogs in this price range. If the breeder is playing with merle and upcharging for proper conformation then their focus is on their pocketbook rather than the quality of their lines. 

Poodles do not historically carry merle, unscrupulous breeders introduced merle genetics from another breed to capitalize on the public's fascination with it. They often hide behind the fact that the general public don't realize that parti and mismark poodles are actually relatively common and claim that merle is a "rare" poodle color. They rarely or ever warn people of the health risks and dangers that come with merle, which includes medication sensitivities traditionally only found in herding dogs and breeds that have had herding dog genetics introduced. Poodles are retrievers.

A reputable breeder does not charge more for proper conformation. Proper conformation is their goal. While some may charge more for a show prospect, that is because show prospects often come with rights they may not afford the purchaser of a pet quality dog and selling them removes a dog that the breeder prizes, and may want for their own program, from their direct control. What makes a dog a show prospect goes beyond simply having excellent conformation.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I saw that the health testing was sketchy but didn't review any further as soon as I saw the word merle. 


Pennhip vs OFA is well above my paygrade but I'd wondered myself after doing so much looking thru OFA lately.
The medical/science community seems to lean to Pennhip for quantifiable results. The OFA single view is done as part of the three view Pennhip.

Looking for confirmation but it seems that Pennhip results may be published in the OFA database for a small fee, OFA publishes their own for no charge.

I also found one reference to the AKC not accepting Pennhip results as of 2010 but not sure if still true. Please correct me if you have info while I'm still looking into that.
Update: PCA, parent breed club is ok with both








Health Concerns - The Poodle Club of America


On this page...Addison’s DiseaseAtrial Septal Defects in Standard PoodlesBloatChronic Active HepatitisCushings DiseaseEpilepsyHip DysplasiaHypothyroidismLegg-Calve-PerthesNeonatal Encephalopathy (NEwS)Patellar LuxationProgressive Retinal AtrophyOptic Nerve HypoplasiaSebaceous AdenitisVaccination...




poodleclubofamerica.org





Buncha links below

Hip Dysplasia - PennHIP and OFA Radiographs - Best Friends Animal Hospital
neutral commentary with xray views, pros/cons list
http://www.wilsonvilleveterinaryclinic.com/documents/PennHIPvsOFA.pdf
they suggest doing both
Evaluation of the Relationship Between Orthopedic Foundation for Animals' Hip Joint Scores and PennHIP Distraction Index Values in Dogs - PubMed
nod to Pennhip with data
Canine Hip Dysplasia Screening Within the United States: Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program and Orthopedic Foundation for Animals Hip/Elbow Database - PubMed
nod to Pennhip but OFA has it's place
Study compares PennHIP vs OFA hip dysplasia tests
fairly neutral with data and graphs
JAVMA on OFA vs Pennhip
nod to Pennhip with data repeated from 20807130
OFA Hip vs PENN Hip
PF members discuss


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Ohfrizzles said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am new here and in search of a red standard poodle. I found an article that listed a breeder by the name of “Black Maple Standard Poodles”. Their website is: blackmaplestandardpoodles.com
> 
> They are located in Temecula, California (southern California). Has anyone had any experience with them? Or can anyone tell me if this looks like a reputable breeder. Any help/info/opinions would be much appreciated. Thanks!


Generally speaking, anyone who breeds for a specific color rather than overall quality and health is not someone from whom I would buy a dog. I would never recommend anyone who has merles since those are not purebred poodles. Merle has occurred from crossbreeding to a breed, such as Shetland sheepdogs, that carries the merle gene. Because merle is linked to some negative health issues, it is wise to avoid it.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

TK9NY said:


> Is "Fair" OFA considered acceptable for breeding?


Obviously it's not ideal but there may be valid reasons to go ahead. These would include breeding to a mate with a higher score to bring up the chances of better results for the pups. This would also be done if there was a different trait to strengthen or counter. Once that's done the weaker trait can be bred up or out.
These are longer range strategies.



TK9NY said:


> My boys, who had all testing results on parents in the Good or Excellent range, had/have a two year guarantee. I was under the impression that 2-3 years is about average. Why only one year for these pups? The dog won't even be fully mature at a year.


This is also why the phenotype testing is generally recommended at/after 2y.
For me, a couple of other things come into play on guarantees at this point.

If the breeder is testing breeding dogs, if their lines and those they breed with have always tested reasonably good, if they have good reputation and good standing within the fancy, I'd consider them whether a 1y, 2y, lifetime, or none at all because I'd also expect them to stand behind any pups they produce anyway.
I don't mean for any/every potential issue, but if it could be tested for and was, and still happened, they'd care and would want to know, and would do what was reasonable in making things right.


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## Ohfrizzles (Nov 15, 2021)

Wow! Thank you for all of the information and resources. I am thinking on going with Lido poodles/Susie Osburn as I see she is on the poodlesonline.com list. I am learning so much through this process. Thank you 🙏


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Keep asking and keep in touch!


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

When you are looking for a red standard and the breeder states that they come from conformation show lines, you can only be speaking to a very small handful of breeders in the US. 
There are less than 20 AKC red standard champions total, and they are out of the same few breeders. 

Susie is one of those few breeders.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

When you reach out to a breeder of that calibre (Lido), if you approach them as a freshman student would an accomplished PhD. professor with years of experience, that may help you set the right tone. Know breeders like her are not about sales, and may or may not have a puppy for a given person. Approached respectfully, if they don't have your or my or someone else's puppy, they may be willing to share additional information that can help lead one to their puppy.

All the best in your search 😊.

ETA In the post above mine, you were honored with a response from one of those very wonderful, elite - and few - breeders in the U.S.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Obviously it's not ideal but there may be valid reasons to go ahead. These would include breeding to a mate with a higher score to bring up the chances of better results for the pups. This would also be done if there was a different trait to strengthen or counter. Once that's done the weaker trait can be bred up or out.
> These are longer range strategies.


Peggy’s dam has fair hips, her sire excellent. This worries me sometimes, as I’ve seen people here say there’s no acceptable reason to breed fair hips, period.




Ohfrizzles said:


> Wow! Thank you for all of the information and resources. I am thinking on going with Lido poodles/Susie Osburn as I see she is on the poodlesonline.com list. I am learning so much through this process. Thank you 🙏


Good luck! I hope you’ll keep us posted. We all get to learn along with you.


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## Ohfrizzles (Nov 15, 2021)

Streetcar said:


> When you reach out to a breeder of that calibre (Lido), if you approach them as a freshman student would an accomplished PhD. professor with years of experience, that may help you set the right tone. Know breeders like her are not about sales, and may or may not have a puppy for a given person. Approached respectfully, if they don't have your or my or someone else's puppy, they may be willing to share additional information that can help lead one to their puppy.
> 
> All the best in your search 😊.
> 
> ETA In the post above mine, you were honored with a response from one of those very wonderful, elite - and few - breeders in the U.S.


wow! Okay, that is how I am feeling at this moment. Maybe even an incoming freshman lol but I am excited to learn and find a healthy, happy pup. I will have to do some research on the appropriate question to ask. Thank you ❤


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy’s dam has fair hips, her sire excellent. This worries me sometimes, as I’ve seen people here say there’s no acceptable reason to breed fair hips, period.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to be a case of only if...

From Hip Grade Details | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

*Fair*: Assigned where minor irregularities in the hip joint exist. The hip joint is wider than a good hip phenotype. This is due to the ball slightly slipping out of the socket causing a minor degree of joint incongruency. There may also be slight inward deviation of the weight-bearing surface of the socket (dorsal acetabular rim) causing the socket to appear slightly shallow. This can be a normal finding in some breeds however, such as the Chinese Shar Pei, Chow Chow, and Poodle.
From Breeding "Fast Normal" or OFA Fair Hips - Page 1 (pedigreedatabase.com)
In conclusion: Breed an OFA fair of known ancestry to an OFA good of known ancestry. Breed an "a" fast-Normal of known ancestry to an "a" Normal of known ancestry. Always breed up to reduce the failure rate. Bob-O



cbrand said:


> I would breed a bitch who had OFA certified Fair hips but only to an Excellent or a Good with no history behind of HD.
> 
> I might breed to a stud who had Fair hips but he would have to be AMAZING: finished Champion or high level performance titles AND he would have to be known to specifically fix exactly what I needed correcting in my bitch. Otherwise, why wouldn't I go to a stud who had better hips?


cbrand is a breeder, no longer active on the forum, Beauvoir Poodles

Here's the other side


dagnyreis said:


> I have heard from honest breeders about cases of breeding a bitch with Good hips to a stud dog with Excellent hips, both surrounded in their pedigrees with Good or Excellent and getting one or more Fair. I personally know of a most gorgeous Champion (now neutered) who has one bad hip yet nothing in the pedigree to predict it. I think the owner cried. Anyway, that's why I won't touch anything below Good. My bitch is Excellent and I bred her to a stud dog that's Good.



It isn't ideal, not to be undertaken without knowledge and good reason, but isn't automatically a red flag as I understand things.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Peggy’s dam has fair hips, her sire excellent. This worries me sometimes, as I’ve seen people here say there’s no acceptable reason to breed fair hips, period.


Forgot to say that our current active breeder members would be best able to speak on this.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Forgot to say that our current active breeder members would be best able to speak on this.


Maybe worthy of a new thread. Thanks for your research.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Ohfrizzles said:


> wow! Okay, that is how I am feeling at this moment. Maybe even an incoming freshman lol but I am excited to learn and find a healthy, happy pup. I will have to do some research on the appropriate question to ask. Thank you ❤


Good breeders choose us as much or more than we choose them 🥰. When I was reeling from the loss of my last dog, I sent word to her breeder. She liked my note and even posted it at her website for a bit. Despite my girl passing at several months past the age of 16, her breeder remembered her exactly.

My girl had flown out to me as a puppy, and a year or two later I got to meet her breeder, whom I loved, in person at our national specialty where I volunteered. My girl was not a Poodle, but great breeders have much in common whatever the breed.


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## Ohfrizzles (Nov 15, 2021)

Streetcar said:


> Good breeders choose us as much or more than we choose them 🥰. When I was reeling from the loss of my last dog, I sent word to her breeder. She liked my note and even posted it at her website for a bit. Despite my girl passing at several months past the age of 16, her breeder remembered her exactly.
> 
> My girl had flown out to me as a puppy, and a year or two later I got to meet her breeder, whom I loved, in person at our national specialty where I volunteered. My girl was not a Poodle, but great breeders have much in common whatever the breed.


Thank you so much for sharing. I lost my boy of 8 years suddenly due to heart failure back in June. It was devastating. I am trying to do everything on my end to hopefully not have to go through that again in the future.


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

Many are seeing PennHip as more valuable than OFA. OFA is an opinion by 3vets. If they are having a bad day you may get a bad rating. I’ve heard on a OFA facebook forum some people have resubmitted the same x-yay and have gotten different ratings. I’ve been looking into this and may go for the pennhip route but the most affordable vet for me is a state away .

Pennhip is more costly and it can be hard to find someone to do it. They can do a OFA view while doing the exam for pennhip and some pay for the xtra view and have both done since Pennhip and OFA‘s don’t really compare. That being said I don’t think a dog with a good or decent score in Pennhip is likely to have bad hips.

Many breeders will cross fair to excellent or good. Especially since hip changes can be caused by things like dogs jumping off the couch too young, being too active while young or slippery floors. Which is why most will not guarantee hips on their puppies. I worry about Nova‘s since she was such a bouncy puppy . There was no keeping her off of furniture or slowing her down .


As to the OP . I would walk away because of the merle. Merle breeders clearly don’t care about the breed since they don’t care that they are breeding dogs are falsely registered and somewhere in the pedigree has hung papers.


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## Elegant Poodles (Sep 1, 2009)

Ohfrizzles said:


> Hello!
> 
> I am new here and in search of a red standard poodle. I found an article that listed a breeder by the name of “Black Maple Standard Poodles”. Their website is: blackmaplestandardpoodles.com
> 
> They are located in Temecula, California (southern California). Has anyone had any experience with them? Or can anyone tell me if this looks like a reputable breeder. Any help/info/opinions would be much appreciated. Thanks!


The BEST red standard poodle breeder is Ontario, Canada. Arreau poodles Cherie has a website. She has finished several champions, mostly apricots. I have corresponded a LOT with her the last several years and she does ALL genetic testing. Rhonda Westpha


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Elegant Poodles said:


> The BEST red standard poodle breeder is Ontario, Canada. Arreau poodles


PF is very lucky to have Arreau and several more outstanding breeders as members .


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I must say my jaw dropped when I read that the breeder in question charges more for good conformation. I almost didn't read the thread at all when I saw in the first sentence that it was another person who wanted a red poodle and not naming any other attributes. It gives me notice that the searcher knows almost nothing about well bred poodles. 

So Ofrizzles, I am so glad you came here and asked before buying a poodle, instead of afterwards as many have. And that you are so open to learning Welcome and best of luck finding a wonderful poodle.


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## Ohfrizzles (Nov 15, 2021)

kontiki said:


> I must say my jaw dropped when I read that the breeder in question charges more for good conformation. I almost didn't read the thread at all when I saw in the first sentence that it was another person who wanted a red poodle and not naming any other attributes. It gives me notice that the searcher knows almost nothing about well bred poodles.
> 
> So Ofrizzles, I am so glad you came here and asked before buying a poodle, instead of afterwards as many have. And that you are so open to learning Welcome and best of luck finding a wonderful poodle.


Thank you! I am incredibly grateful for everyone’s help. & I’m so glad that I found this forum of amazing people. I crossed that breeder off the list so quickly after receiving that feedback. Im still searching & found a couple of breeders I like so far. Lido for a red standard or Lakeview for a silver. It’s so hard to decide haha but I am excited to find my future best friend.


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