# 8 mo. old standard being aggressive with other dogs



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Welcome to the forum - and the joys of adolescence! Did Sebastian get much socialising with other dogs as a pup, or is he learning dog etiquette from scratch?

Given the importance of getting this right, I think I would be looking to consult a fully qualified dog behaviourist (not just a trainer). You need someone with both qualifications and experience, who can meet you and Sebastian and work with you around other dogs. You do need to be careful about who you choose though - I believe it is an unregulated field in Canada, and anyone can call themselves a Behaviourist! You may need to do some research to find which are the professional bodies and organisations that best meet your needs.


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Sounds like puppy antics! Have you tried obedience classes? It is very fun! I am doing it for the first time, just regret not doing it sooner! I know this isn't a direct answer to your problem, but I have found obedience classes to be very relaxing and great at teaching self-control to dogs that like to "do whatever they want." Also, I think your dog will grow out of this phase. I used to take Leroy to the dog park almost every day - he did learn some bad manners there in retrospect, and he'd always love to wrestle around and get dirty, but now I find him to be very gentlemanly.

Are you at a dog park or regular park? What is the first thing you do when you get there? When I get into the dog park, I starting walking the perimeter and just do this the whole time I am there. Keeps my dogs moving and their eyes on me at all times. Leroy is satisfied running around, marking, sniffing, and following me, as opposed to wrestling and bopping dogs on the head (that he doesn't know) with this foot! This is very rude behavior to a dog and I believe Leroy is growing out of it.


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Was there an initial incident that was sort of the nexus to this behavior, or has Sebastien always been this way?

Out of curiosity, is he still intact?

I had a similar situation with one of out standards, Nash. He always got along great with other dogs. He could just tend to be a bit too exuberant from the get go, and want to play, but no hostilities. That is until we visited a dog park. I'll spare the gory details, but in a nutshell, Nash got beat up pretty good by a number of dogs, and the incident changed him. No longer would he greet a dog in a friendly manner. It became assert himself first, and ask questions later, even with dogs he regularly interacted with around the neighborhood (of which there are many). He would growl, or run up on the dog and attempt to bite them in a disciplinary fashion. It wasn't full blown aggression because he always responded immediately to my verbal commands; I would usually down him until I could get control of the situation. It was a real mess.

Because of this change in behavior, I chose to steer clear of dog parks. On our walks, Nash remained on leash, and my other two walked off leash beside me. If we came upon another dog, it would usually trigger Nash, so the first thing I worked on was making him sit quietly next to me while my other two dogs interacted with the new arrival. I praised and rewarded Nash as he successfully sat next to me, and I kept the interactions with the other dogs to a brief amount of time. As Nash improved with this step, I started to lengthen the amount of time we remained around the other dog. I watched his body language, rewarded him once he relaxed (mouth open, not tense, etc) and came off being alert. Over time, he learned to relax faster doing this. The next step during these encounters was after sitting for a second, once he relaxed, I allowed him to approach the other dog. At first this was only with dogs he was more familiar with, and whose demeanor I knew. Nash was allowed to sniff, say hello, and that was it, we were off again. If he growled, or became reactive, I corrected him. When he behaved correctly, he got a lot of praise and a huge reward. During this phase, if we came upon an unfamiliar dog, who wasn't a known commodity, we stayed away. Eventually, Nash was able to interact for longer and longer periods of time without becoming reactive. Then I started this phase all over again with less familiar dogs, and built back up. Then the leash came back off Nash, and I proofed him fully around the familiar dogs. From the beginning of this, the interactions were good, but if they looked as if they may go bad, I immediately addressed Nash verbally, and that's usually all it took. If it didn't work, I downed him, leashed him up, and we stepped away for a bit while the others played (denied him access to the party). Then I started him back over again.

I just kept building up this way, slowly but surely. Now, he can walk by any dog off leash, and not have a problem. He's back to being the original dog we brought home to be with us. It took a long time to get there though. Probably a solid year, but he has my complete trust again.

This was a long winded anecdotal story, but I hope it helps. For one, I didn't expect to be able to fix the problem in the most intense environment: a dog park. I used an environment I could control the best which were our daily walks around the neighborhood (there are a lot of dogs around our place). Two, I broke the problem down into the most discrete steps I could, and built back up incrementally. My criteria was to expand the amount of time during each step before moving onto the next, harder step. When starting the next step, I went back to smaller periods of time, and built back up. Also, I watched for other triggers during the interactions to see what they might tell me. For instance, I learned quickly that Nash was most reactive around black dogs, and intact dogs (male or female). So I stayed away from those at first, and introduced them into the process last.

If Sebastien were my dog, I'd be inclined to follow a similar approach; however, given his age, I'd keep it all positive as much as possible. If he goofs up, give a verbal correction, and leave, deny him the fun he desires. Wait awhile, bring him back and try again. He'll begin to realize that his behavior is causing him to miss out on the thing he wants. When he does the right thing, no matter how small, praise the snot out of him. Get involved in the play if you can, such as throwing a ball or whatever his hot button might be.

This is a crazy long message. Sorry about that. Hope it helps.

Greg


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Dog vs. dog aggession (DA) is found in all breeds, although it is more likely in some breeds than others (like poodles).

It can be improved and managed, but it is unlikely to disappear.

You can learn a lot about managing DA on pit bull websites. These people are PROS at keeping their very DA dogs - and animals around them - safe. I don't want to overwhelm the thread, but if you'd prefer not to goggle it I can help you with management techniques.

DA can be controlled. I had a very, very DA pit bull. If I left her alone with another animal it would be dead. But through intense training, she could be in a dog park, offleash with me. No, she could never participate in free play. But she could be self-controlled.


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## Artdeco (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks so much for the thoughtful answers! I really, really appreciate it.

SFM may be on to something. I'm thinking that while Sebastien plays nicely with dog friends in the same small dog park, maybe we've let him become under-socialized. e.g. He's fine with these five or six dogs that he knows and a couple of neighborhood pooches - but not with stranger dogs.

On this hunch, I took him out to the local field after work - threw the ball for him a bunch, which he loves. (He's a good retriever.) Tired him out - or as much as he tires out; teenager energy. Then my husband and I drove him over to the great big dog park - so 2 of us there if needed. Told husband - I'm either crazy to try this or S. is going to start to learn the doggy rules. These are the options!

First, we just walked him around the forested paths on lead, he was a good boy. Then with him calm and near the area where dogs and owners hang out, we took him off-lead (or mostly - kept a short lead on him in case a grab was needed). First, he became quickly over-stimulated; running flat out, sniffing at dogs on the fly. Then a lab-shep cross bossed him around a little. He kept looking over for us, which to me said he wasn't feeling that confident. But then ... he slowed down, started just wandering among the dogs. He was tired, it is really hot out, but all the same - this was big progress! No stranger dog was being pestered.

He then met a 10 mo. old cross his size, was playing nicely, soon started to get to rough and nip at her tail. She told him off a little, he settled down a little with a timeout, played a little nicer, got too much again - but the other dog (and thankfully her owners) were nice about their dog being his trainer. And she didn't really mind this crazy fellow.

So I'm cautiously optimistic. Like Greg is suggesting, it's breaking this down into incremental training bits. We've got a lot of work to do - e.g. Sebastien's far too aggressive with smaller dogs. My husband says: "S. likes to pick a fight he knows he can win". But we're going to keep trying the heavier socialization strategy at the big dog park and see if this works.

FYI, yes, Sebastien is neutered and hasn't had an incident. (I'm sorry to hear about Nash's experience, no wonder the guy got unfriendly with other dogs.) In terms of obedience, Sebastien has his basic commands down; recall isn't perfect but is steadily improving, as is eye contact with us.

I will also check out the DA suggestions on other sites, e.g. pitbulls. I don't know that Sebastien's much more than a lot of bluster and pushiness, but it is unpleasant for other owners and their dogs when he's too rough or upsetting their animals. All to say, fingers crossed - and thanks for your help!


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

That's encouraging news. I think you have a good strategy in hand, now to just work it. Keep in mind that it can take awhile before you see solid changes in behavior. My mentor reminds me frequently when we teach my youngest dog a new behavior to allow 4-6 weeks for it to solidify. So, if you see a set back, don't be discouraged.

Your last description makes me think of another question for you. Sounds like Sebastien is a very drivey dog, and has tons of energy. Likes to run a lot? By chance, when he is with the other dogs, does he try to get them engaged in a game of chase? Does he nip more at the dogs who don't want to run with him? Does he do less of it with the ones who do want to run fast with him?

This was the case with Nash. Nash's hot button is running. He thought every dog was like him, and would want to run full throttle after each other. For those dogs who were less inclined, he would mouth them and quickly make a move like he was going to run off in hopes they would pursue him. The play style between Nash and his sister Lexi is to do this sort of interaction, and then tear off after each other. Then they would stop, and wrestle like mad crazy in full gladiatorial fashion (lots of snarling and mouthing). Then they'd take off running again. When Nash encountered one neighborhood GSD, Ava, she didn't like to run. Nash would wrestle with her incessantly just to get her running. Ava was a super gentle girl, and tolerated the rough housing, but didn't really engage. If Nash over did it, Ava would quickly discipline him. Nash got the message, and dialed it back. On the flip side, there is a Vizsla, Lucky, who runs fast as stink. She and Nash go all out with chase, but never wrestle. Furthermore, Nash would try to do this with little dogs, and I would have to intervene and make him back off. When we got our Yorkie as a puppy, Nash quickly learned that the little dogs needed to be treated more gently.

So, I'm wondering if Sebastian might be a more extreme version of what I just described about Nash. It's a long shot, but who knows. If this is part of Sebastien's issue, then socialization, like you're doing, will definitely fix this.

Greg


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## Artdeco (Jun 28, 2012)

Greg, that sounds familiar.

How Nash played with his sister is very similar to how Sebastien currently plays with a poodle-cross (his best buddy) and another poodle at our little dog park. So yes, he doesn't get that all dogs don't like this.

He'll even try to get a neighbor's 11-year-old Briard to do this in the local park. Poor big guy, one day he's just going to sit his 135 lbs. on the pushy poodle.


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Ok, so here's the $64,000 question. Is Sebastien really being aggressive? Is he really trying to do bodily harm to the other dogs? Or, is he just so over the top in his play that the biting, nipping, and mouthing just appears to be combative?

I ask because I've seen poodles really go at it. There's no physical harm being done, and they love it, but to people watching who are unfamiliar with really rough play (not saying you are, but people who have observed my dogs were), think the dogs are killing each other. It isn't really a breed specific thing, but I have seen our poodles get really amped up and do this.

If Sebastien is this way, and perhaps getting frustrated that the other dog can't match his enthusiasm, he may be trying to push it harder than he should. Some dogs, like that 10 month old mix you mentioned, know how to and are confident enough to correct the offending dog. A lot of times, this is all that is required; let the dogs do the work. Maybe you're finding that Sebastien just needs that additional influence from you to get him squared away about how to learn this difference, which was the case with that 10 month old dog.

Now here is something else I've always taught my dogs. When Nash and Lexi were going at it full tilt, or with another dog, I would periodically down them. All play stopped. I'd keep them in the down stay for a brief period of time, and then release them. I did this primarily to enforce the notion that I'm in control, not them. That way if I wanted to leave, when I said let's go, then it's time to go. Also, and especially in Nash's case, if the play is getting too rough, I could quickly stop my dog. Even if it just slowed him down a step, that's all I usually needed to nip things in the bud. I'd keep him in the down, until he relaxed, and then release him.

So, in light of this, do you think this might be applicable to Sabastien?

Greg


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Greg I've had great success with the down command too. I think your suggestions are right on the money, and those initiatives have really worked with my two also. It seems to boil down to, commitment to obedience training, repetition until the desired behaviours are ingrained, and re-establishing who is in charge. At the end of that, even a really drivey dog can be managed in any situation, even when their nature would be to respond differently. And Artdeco, Sebastion is a teenager so he's probably partially acting out because of that. Addressing this now is a great idea because he'll calm down in a few months and you'll have got this under control during his worst time of life. So it's all up from here!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm with Sarpoodle. This does not sound like dog aggression to me...sounds like exuberance and social unawareness that some dogs don't enjoy over the top play. I have experienced this with both my male poodles. My female is more socially aware. Interestingly, she is the only one who had weekly puppy kindergarten with lots of off-leash play time to teach social interaction skills...


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Indiana said:


> Artdeco, Sebastion is a teenager so he's probably partially acting out because of that. Addressing this now is a great idea because he'll calm down in a few months and you'll have got this under control during his worst time of life. So it's all up from here!


I agree with you Indiana, obedience training is critical. Anybody can do it with the right help and the commitment to see it through regardless of the dog.

As you stated above, the age of Sebastien is a major factor in all of this. He is still a pup, and this is the best time to lay the foundation. Also, because of his age, he is still learning, so keeping things positive is the best approach.

For me, my working dog Saydee just turned 1 year old a few weeks ago. The foundation work I've been doing leading up to this is really starting to pay off. It's actually quite exciting when you see the dog have those lightbulb moments. Just this morning we were working on recall drills, and she was doing quite well under moderate distractions. We've only recently started to work on her emergency down. It's a strange concept for a young dog that is being taught that "come" means get here now! Throw a "stop" or "down" while they're being recalled, and it can be quite funny to watch them try and process it; more often than not, they complete the recall and then down at your feet. On a long recall, I decided to throw a down at her while she was on the run. To my delight, she changed her gate immediately, and went into the down after a number of steps (too many for the final product, but an excellent start).

The point is, it does take time and patience to put good obedience on your dog. But the dividends it can pay, especially once they start to mature in age are tremendous and quite satisfying. It gives both of you confidence. Sometimes working with a young dog can have the same feeling as trying to lose weight. You diet for months on end, and don't really see the changes you want after losing that initial couple of pounds. But then, after enough time has passed, you can suddenly fit into those old jeans you haven't been able to wear in years.

Greg


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## DivinityPoodles (Jan 23, 2012)

Our male is/was like this. He was especially annoying to a very tolerant Lab friend and although she corrected him when he was smaller than her, when he outgrew her, it didn't work anymore. She finally really nailed him (no blood or guts) but was very, very firm in her discipline & the lightbulb went on. He still plays very rough but now we have another poodle who plays just as rough, and funny enough is a female who has better manner with other dogs (and no puppy kindergarten).... must be a girl thing lol. Anyway, our male did improve with some age and some doggy discipline and has learned that leave it includes other dogs.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I quit going to dog parks for a while because my girl was either getting picked on or picking on someone else. I started going again recently and things are much better now that she is 18 months old. 

It sounds like puppyhood in an unneutered young male who hasn't learned his manners yet. Some older dog is going to get po'd and put him in his place, but that can backfire by making them more timid. 

I would try the park when there are few dogs around and be prepared to leave at any moment. To me, nothing he is doing sounds abnormal for an exhuberant young dog. Hang in there. The next 6 months will be the most challenging for you as he grows into an adult. He'll settle down, just not yet.

We also use the 'leave it' command. It won't work unless your pup is well trained, which he may not be at his younger age. I don't know...sometimes dog parks aren't the best place for young dogs.


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