# Rescue pup mysteriously peeing in sleep/drinking a ton of water



## AngelsMommy (Nov 3, 2012)

I don't have any suggestions other than what you seem to be doing. 

But sending positive healing energy your way to help figure what you need.

Kudos to you for your adult rescues! 
My Angel is an adult rescue and a major blessing.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I had a Bichon with DI that came on when he was 10. I also had one with very dilute urine. My suggestion is to ask to be referred to an Internist. You will same time and money and poor little Clyde can start to heal from whatever is going on. I can highly recommend The Barns in Gaithersburg , MD. Or South Paws in Springfield, Va. I have used both and they are excellent. 

Please let us know what you find out and how the little guy is doing.

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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thank you! I had heard South Paws was very good, so I think that's our next move.

I just had a really good laugh over an email from our vet (who has absolutely no idea what to do, great vet for routine and amazingly well priced, but really no clue about handling something like this), who suggested I take measurements of the water Clyde drinks versus measuring his urine output daily by using a soup ladle on a stick. I couldn't stop laughing. I have NO idea where he was going with that idea or what that's supposed to tell us...yes, he drinks and pees A LOT, I don't need a soup ladle to tell me that. 

South Paws it is!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I forget to recommend that instead of Kotex that you use Tens. They are made for incontience I'm people and they work much better. I use the Long on my elderly guy.

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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

ROTFL....that's a new one on me and having done Rescue forever I thought that I had heard it all. 

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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Oops that would be Tens.

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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Sorry ...my tablet keeps changing the word TENA 

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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks for that! I'll definitely start using those instead of kotex. I noticed the skin around the genital area is getting a little irritated, so I don't think the kotex is keeping him completely dry. I made an appointment for South Paws and we're going to do a desmopressin trial first to figure out if it's DI. If desmopressin has no effect, the next is an ACTH stem test for Addison's/Cushing's. At this point we're just going down the list and ruling things out regardless of how rare the condition is.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am so glad that you are going to South Paws ! I think that you will like the TENA a lot better. Holding good thoughts for little Clyde .

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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh my gosh your vet's advice is too funny! I can understand measuring input of water but output??? The picture of you following around your dog with a ladle will keep me giggling all day. Hope poor little Clyde feels better soon.


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

Would taking away his water at a certain amount of time at night help him not to go during the night? 

I had a cat that had diabetes and his urine was so diluted that it was almost completely clear.


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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

It's dangerous to regulate water when we don't know what the cause is-- if there is an underlying kidney or medical issue where he actually needs this water to compensate for his kidneys not doing their job, we could cause some serious damage if we limited his water. So we definitely want a diagnosis first before we limit anything. And technically if we diagnose the issue and get him on the right treatment, we wouldn't have to limit his water at all. 

He's on a desmopressin trial, which is the hormone treatment for diabetes insipidus, and he had no accident overnight last night and he seems to be drinking less!! It's only the first 24 hours of being on it, so I'm not getting my hopes up too much, but it's a really fabulous sign 

I can't stop giggling either about the ladle. It's such a funny image! But fortunately through all of this, Clyde isn't phased by it. He has no idea anything is wrong, he's a ball of 2 year old energy and happy as a clam.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

You are so right to not withhold water!!! I am so glad that he is feeling well and playing. Good luck with the med he is on. Please keep us updated . Hugs to Bonnie and Clyde 

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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

This treatment sound promising, I hope it works out. 

The ladle is still making me giggle too


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Instead of using a ladle, you could always put him in doggie diapers. Then after he pees in them, you could weigh them to see how many grams. That's what we do for babies in the hospital. 


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

PoodlePaws said:


> Instead of using a ladle, you could always put him in doggie diapers. Then after he pees in them, you could weigh them to see how many grams. That's what we do for babies in the hospital.
> 
> 
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Sorry if this is a stupid question but why measure output? If the dog is not swelling and is urinating I don't understand the point. There must be one if the do this at the hospital. What does this tell them?


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

I thought they said the dr wanted the output measured. That's the easiest way to do it. 


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Yes, I realized the vet wanted this but I don't know why? I thought you might have some insight because you mention that is what we do at the hospital.


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## PoodlePaws (May 28, 2013)

Oh. To see if the body is losing more fluid than its taking in. 


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## jazzipoodle (Mar 30, 2010)

Three years ago my poodles were going through something that sounds like what Clyde is going through. They were peeing in their sleep and had very dilute urine. Diabetes insipidus was mentioned as a possibility and lots of tests were run. It turned out to be the Blue Buffalo dog food they were eating. There was a recall. The dog food had too much Vitamin D, so they had Vitamin D toxicity. Discontinuing the food was the cure. It took a while for their recovery. I hope they discover Clyde's problem right away.


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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

That's really interesting about the vit D, I didn't realize that toxicity in dogs had those symptoms. We feed both pups Taste of the Wild, and prior to that we fed Fromm's but they couldn't seem to agree on the same type of Fromm's so I'm trying to find ONE food that they both will like. I'm starting to wonder if I should just give up on finding a single food because now Bonnie is hunger striking on Taste of the Wild. Oy. 

We didn't end up measuring urine output. Though the diaper idea that was mentioned is interesting-- but he only pees in a diaper once per day when he doesn't realize he's peeing. He won't pee in it if he's awake and aware he needs to go out. So we would've had to figure out some way to catch his urine outside and I just wasn't willing to do that!! 

We have an appointment at South Paws this Saturday with a specialist. The desmopressin trial was a bit odd. I can't definitively say if it helped, it was just different. Typically, Clyde sleeps through the night and will pee in the belly band. But on the desmopressin he woke up every single night between 2-3am, woke me up, and ran to the door because he knew he had to pee. So I'm just not sure what was going on there. It was my impression that desmopressin would assist with having him drink less and urinate less. We think he was drinking less (hard to tell with two dogs that drink from each other's bowls), but he didn't seem to urinate less or stop urinating in the middle of the night. So I have no idea if it's DI or if the drug was "helping" or not. Personally, I'd rather him pee in the belly band overnight if he's going to pee, waking me up at 2am was rough on my sleep cycle!!


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## Kblubyu (Aug 25, 2013)

treehugr55 said:


> That's really interesting about the vit D, I didn't realize that toxicity in dogs had those symptoms. We feed both pups Taste of the Wild, and prior to that we fed Fromm's but they couldn't seem to agree on the same type of Fromm's so I'm trying to find ONE food that they both will like. I'm starting to wonder if I should just give up on finding a single food because now Bonnie is hunger striking on Taste of the Wild. Oy.
> 
> We didn't end up measuring urine output. Though the diaper idea that was mentioned is interesting-- but he only pees in a diaper once per day when he doesn't realize he's peeing. He won't pee in it if he's awake and aware he needs to go out. So we would've had to figure out some way to catch his urine outside and I just wasn't willing to do that!!
> 
> We have an appointment at South Paws this Saturday with a specialist. The desmopressin trial was a bit odd. I can't definitively say if it helped, it was just different. Typically, Clyde sleeps through the night and will pee in the belly band. But on the desmopressin he woke up every single night between 2-3am, woke me up, and ran to the door because he knew he had to pee. So I'm just not sure what was going on there. It was my impression that desmopressin would assist with having him drink less and urinate less. We think he was drinking less (hard to tell with two dogs that drink from each other's bowls), but he didn't seem to urinate less or stop urinating in the middle of the night. So I have no idea if it's DI or if the drug was "helping" or not. Personally, I'd rather him pee in the belly band overnight if he's going to pee, waking me up at 2am was rough on my sleep cycle!!


Hi! I saw the name South Paws and realized we are neighbors, I live in Fairfax. I am getting my puppy just before Christmas so maybe sometime we can meet up for dog play. Anyway, if you haven't been to South Paws before, it is really impressive. I had two different dogs who saw two different specialists and they were awesome. Unfortunately both dogs were terminal for different illnesses (and died within a week of each other...bad year) and I loved both their doctors. Good luck in solving Clyde's issues


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## Kblubyu (Aug 25, 2013)

pandj said:


> I am so glad that you are going to South Paws ! I think that you will like the TENA a lot better. Holding good thoughts for little Clyde .
> 
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Hi Pandj, you live by me as well as treehugger. I'm in Fairfax and getting a 4 month old toy in December. Maybe we could get a meet up for Poodle Forum folks in Northern VA. I was reading about "Zoom" in Rockville which is an indoor dog park with free coffee and music as well as a doggie playground, and they rent space for meet ups.


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I was just wondering how Clyde is doing ?

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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I am sorry to take so long to reply. When are you getting your baby? You must be so excited!!! 

Jolie is a Service Dog so we do not go to play groups . I wish that we could. It would really be fun. Before my herd of Bichons went to the bridge we spent so many wonderful days playing with our friends.

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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Hi there! Clyde saw the specialist at South Paws last week and it's just more tests. She'd like us to rule out Leptospirosis (there's an atypical version that just presents with excessive drinking/urination), and Cushing's disease. She doesn't think we need to test for Addison's (I may push for it eventually anyway). And our behaviorist wants us to test for underactive thyroid, because he has a few compulsive behaviors as well as aggression to strangers (mainly men). 

So the behaviorist is really convinced his excessive drinking ties into his other OCD tendencies. The specialist thinks we're ultimately going to determine it's behavioral as well (psychogenic polydipsia is the clinical term for 'he drinks compulsively'). He's scheduled for those tests this month when we go to his regular vet for his vaccines. They're just derived from a urine sample and a blood draw, nothing crazy. But boy are they expensive!!! So crazy how much money we've thrown at this and still don't have an actual answer. But Clyde is totally unphased, he has no idea he has an issue and is a playful pup. 

As for meet-ups in NoVA, I'd love to connect with other poodle owners and have a play date! I don't take mine to dog parks because of their anxiety issues, so I love any excuse to get them to socialize. My boyfriend would probably have to be Bonnie's 'handler' for the day, she can sometimes be dog aggressive, but all the times she's met other poodles she's loved them (I've heard poodles are one of the few breeds that can actually recognize their own breed?! I think she does!).


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## Kblubyu (Aug 25, 2013)

Great! I am getting my puppy Dec. 21. After the first of the year I will post a thread looking for NOVA members who would like to go to Zoom and I will set something up. Also, are you a member of the Washington Poodle Club? I am going to join. From the pictures on their site looks like mainly spoos, but still fun to meet up with poodle people. Hope no one will mind my little frou frou dog!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Oh my gosh a Christmas puppy! This will be your best Christmas ever. My Nicholas came to us from a shelter on Christmas Eve. He brought Kennel cough with him...so I got 8 adult dogs and a 4 month old puppy with Kennel cough that year for Christmas. lol It seems like yesterday and Nick is 15 and 1/2.

I do not belong to the Poodle Club of Washington. I am A Bichon Frise Club of America member. I think is great that you are going to join the local poodle club! You will learn so much.

Please keep me in the loop with the NOVA Poodle play group. It is a really cool that you are getting one together.






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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Unexpected update on Clyde's lab results! 

Negative for leptospirosis, negative for Cushing's and Addison's (well, low risk for both based on the lab results since there are no definitive tests). But I insisted on throwing in a 5 panel thyroid (because it's my money and why the hell not). Meanwhile, none of the vets I spoke to wanted to test thyroid. His TSH level is abormally high, indicating underactive thyroid!! And what are some of the symptoms of underactive thyroid? Excessive drinking and excessive urination. So we're just waiting to hear back from the specialist if we can go ahead with treatment. The T4 levels are low-normal, so not as low as I would've wanted to see. But with the symptoms already pretty extreme, I would prefer not waiting until the T4 levels drop lower (which inevitably they will over time without treatment).


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

Why didn't they want to test for thyroid? Ugh doctors! They make you do all the research yourself. 


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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Our primary vet is STILL saying "well I'm not sure what the thyroid results mean, but I'm still convinced it's not thyroid related." Which is absurd. And he's never given us an alternative diagnosis except for that he's convinced it's just behavioral (termed psychogenic polydipsia). He talks to me like I'm 5 and like I can't possibly understand what's going on with my own dog. I've put up with his idiocy just because he's the least expensive in the area. (I guess you get what you pay for?)

Meanwhile the rest of Clyde's behavioral issues also are in line with underactive thyroid, so the TSH level plus almost 8 other symptoms on the list now fit together under this single diagnosis (instead of me just thinking my dog is crazy). Clyde has really dry skin (despite my omega 3 supplements in his food), hes aggressive to strangers, moody even with us, has a slight cardiac arrhythmia, and has gained 4 pounds in three months even with a decrease in his food-- which all fit underactive thyroid. I'm not sure why our primary vet is ignoring what's staring him in the face. But I suppose this is why we have a specialist on hand as well. She'll be able to interpret the results properly and tell us where to go from here!!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

Good for you for following your gut!!! Please keep us updated on little Clyde. I am so glad that he with you and that you pursued an answer to his illness. Cudos to your Behaviorlist for a good call!

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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

Definitely get a new vet.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

When Taylee had some strange thyroid issues going on, my Vet sent blood to Michigan State, who ran all the tests, and gave an opinion on what to do - hers was so complicated that they spoke to my Vet on the phone several times as well.
And just from my own personal experience, since the thyroid thing is usually autoimmune, meaning that his body perceives the thyroid as a foreign body and sends out antibodies to kill it, it can take several years for the "full destruction" of it, during which the hormones can be variable, as can the medication dosage, so, ideally this is something that you should re-check frequently whether or not he starts the meds - don't settle for the standard once a year if you really want to make sure that he is well.
Also, best to be on watch for other endocrine or immune issues, because when one has one, they are at higher risk for the others!
Good luck - I bet you are happy that you at least have some direction to try and help him!


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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks all for your responses! I'm still incredibly frustrated over this. The specialist at South Paws has basically told us to ignore the TSH result. And that clinic is no slouch, they're really well respected in my area.

The specialist said that because his T4 levels are low-normal, we can't treat him for underactive thyroid. We should re-test in a year and see how his thyroid levels are then. But it's my understanding that if the TSH is elevated then it's considered subclinical, or is it not the same in dogs as it is in humans? I'm not sure how you just ignore an abnormal result. This is REALLY irritating, because this actually makes sense of all his seemingly random symptoms. And if his TSH is already elevated at such a young age, I'm assuming this will continue to progress. So maybe my only option is to just wait it out a year and re-test. I just hope his symptoms don't get worse in the mean time.

The specialist suggested seeing a veterinary behaviorist and treating him for anxiety and OCD. I'm not so sure I'm OK with that! Bonnie is on Prozac for severe anxiety, so I totally respect the medical need for it in some cases, but Clyde is a completely different situation!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

South Paws is great but not the end of the line. If you would like a second opinion I would recommend seeing Anne Chiapella at Vet Internal Medicine Practice of N. Va. She is on Rt. 28 in Manassas. Only see her. 
Trust your gut ! You know your dog. You have gone this far I would get one more opinion.

Please let us know how little Clyde is doing.

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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

treehugr55 said:


> Thanks all for your responses! I'm still incredibly frustrated over this. The specialist at South Paws has basically told us to ignore the TSH result. And that clinic is no slouch, they're really well respected in my area.
> 
> The specialist said that because his T4 levels are low-normal, we can't treat him for underactive thyroid. We should re-test in a year and see how his thyroid levels are then. But it's my understanding that if the TSH is elevated then it's considered subclinical, or is it not the same in dogs as it is in humans? I'm not sure how you just ignore an abnormal result. This is REALLY irritating, because this actually makes sense of all his seemingly random symptoms. And if his TSH is already elevated at such a young age, I'm assuming this will continue to progress. So maybe my only option is to just wait it out a year and re-test. I just hope his symptoms don't get worse in the mean time.
> 
> The specialist suggested seeing a veterinary behaviorist and treating him for anxiety and OCD. I'm not so sure I'm OK with that! Bonnie is on Prozac for severe anxiety, so I totally respect the medical need for it in some cases, but Clyde is a completely different situation!


I would agree with you for humans that it should be treated - my Endocrinologist told me that he has found people with clinical signs and perfectly normal thyroid panels, but treated them when he found that they had high antibodies. I wonder if they can test antibodies in dogs?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

pandj said:


> South Paws is great but not the end of the line. If you would like a second opinion I would recommend seeing Anne Chiapella at Vet Internal Medicine Practice of N. Va. She is on Rt. 28 in Manassas. Only see her.
> Trust your gut ! You know your dog. You have gone this far I would get one more opinion.
> 
> Please let us know how little Clyde is doing.
> ...


I completely agree with getting another opinion when you know that something isn't right - it took me until my fourth Endocrinologist to find one who both believed that I was severely symptomatic, and would work with me beyond the "take this pill and come back in six months" that the others were giving me - please try to find someone who realizes that every presentation of a disease may not be in their textbook and will work you to relieve his symptoms now!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

I have done some research today. Dr Jean Dodds does thyroid testing . I would have Clyde's T tests done by her lab in Calif. You can have it pulled here and send it to her. You and Clyde are in my thoughts.

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## treehugr55 (Oct 4, 2013)

Thanks all for your support! I know human endocrinologists are a rough bunch too, I've been to quite a few. It took a naturopathic doctor to finally pin point my own adrenal issues. So it seems like even in the dog world, endocrine disorders are a hotly contested subject. 

Pandj-- you read my mind. Thanks so much for looking into that! I routed his lab work to Dr Dodds-- even our behaviorist recommended her clinic, Hemopet. Thanks to all of you here and our behaviorist I'm not feeling so crazy for not giving this up. I'm not willing to chalk this up to him being quirky, and I won't rest until someone gives me a better explanation. So I hope Dr Dodds can shed some light onto this for us!! I'll update when I hear from her!


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## pandj (Jun 12, 2013)

We can will be keeping fingers and paws crossed!

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