# Addicted to Dog Shows!!!



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Great photos! I love the mini especially.

I have to say, that white standard has too much hair on the top of its head for my liking. It's slanted to the side there's so much of it!


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey, if you want to see some big hair look at this one. The dog was too big and had too much hair for my taste. I much preferred the smaller blue. (But, of course, I may be partial!)


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I knowe the feeling about being addicted to dog shows I just live so far now ! Love the pics thanks for sharing ..


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

Wouldn't it be fantastic to go to the Eukanuba show? You got some great pictures! My favorite is of the mini. It reminds me of my Zulee. 

I'm like you. I rather see smaller dogs without so much hair. A poodle should be light and springy. Besides for breeding stock, I'm not interested in a beehive hairdo that you know they use wiggies to get that look anyway. I wish they would concentrate more on structure. JMO.

The only exception is toys. I don't like seeing the toy being breed to be super small. I think it's a detriment to the breed in all sorts of ways.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

I acutally showed at one of these in the 90's I won the breed went into the group ring and there were al these cameras HA HA ,needless to say I did not win the group . So I never even apeared on TV . Of course that was with my Irish Setter Sunshine  Not a spoo...


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

I didn't mean to leave out the toys.


She thought the judge had a treat!

And a few more minis...







I'm thinking some of these photos may help me with show grooming once I get a puppy. And don't the black poodles stand out? Wonder if that's why blacks (and whites) win more, because it is so much easier to see their profile and their movement around the ring. But I guess it could work against you if you had something you really didn't want the judge looking at. 
Only thing you can't see as well is their expression, and I miss seeing that.

No reds were entered in standards or minis.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Wonder who won Eukanuba? I meant to look at the AKC website earlier today and see. It would have been wonderful to go there and see it in person. Maybe someone on the forum went and can tell us about it.

I'm impressed Bigredpoodle! Winning the breed was quite an accomplishment.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

amerique2 said:


> Wonder who won Eukanuba? I meant to look at the AKC website earlier today and see. It would have been wonderful to go there and see it in person. Maybe someone on the forum went and can tell us about it.
> 
> I'm impressed Bigredpoodle! Winning the breed was quite an accomplishment.


Thanks she was a very pretty girl  She was my Bred by Exibitor bitch and she also won Best Bred By That day ... She won the breed several times and had a 5 point major and lots of singles ... but I nver finished her as her hips were horrible I was devastated...Any way this was my Sunshine baby doo...
I hope someday to be in this same palce with my red poo  Fingers crossed ...


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Amerique, any idea which kennel those silver minis came from? The more I see the silvers, the more I like them, although I also still love the blacks.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Really nice shots. Thank you for sharing this with us. The white definitely has way too much hair for me. It gets to the point where they start to look ridiculous. I love the blacks!_


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

I was curious myself. The silver in the puppy clip is Cratan Pandora's Box at Calliope, and the one in the Continental is Ch. Amity Mystical Horizon's Heaven Sent.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

You're so welcome. Love taking them. It's always fun to get home and see what I got.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Mmmmmm....the silver mini in the continental...VERY nice!!!! Who won the breed that day in standards and minis??


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Yup too much hair on those dogs. They stop looking like dogs at some point and start looking like something else. Not sure what but definitely not something that you want to own as a pet or hunt or go hiking with that's for sure. Great pictures though, thanks for posting them.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

OK, let's see. I marked my catalog during the mini competition because someone said that's the best way to learn how to count points. Laughing at myself right now, because I am just now figuring out that all dogs have odd numbers and bitches have even numbers. See, it's already paying off!

Saturday:
MINI:
Best of Variety: Silver in Continental in the pictures above (Ch. Amity Mystical Horizon's Heaven Sent)
Best of Winners: Brown Puppy from 6-9 mos. class (Ash's Mystical Mama Mia Amity Queen)
Best of Opposite Sex: (Forever Confettis What a Class Act)

STANDARD:
BOV: Didn't mark the catalog during standards and can't read the number from the photo so I'm not sure of name. It was the black dog that I posted and said had really big hair!!! 
BOW: Sharbelle Man in Black from Open Dogs class.
BOS: the beautiful blue, Pajak Pretty Woman from the Open Bitches class.

Sunday: 
MINI:
BOV: Silver in Continental in the pictures above (Ch. Amity Mystical Horizon's Heaven Sent)
BOW: Eaglehill's A Season of Hope from Open Bitches class.
BOS: black puppy, Legend Ladies' Man from Puppy Dogs 6-9 months class.

The pretty silver mini bitch won her class (even though only 1 entered)--Puppy Bitches 9-under 12 mos.

And I missed the Standard competition because I was in another building watching Obedience.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for letting us know. Much appreciated.


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## jester's mom (Nov 25, 2008)

Thank you so much for posting these photos. It is always great to see the dogs that are showing and the ones that win, and to see the clips they have. Very helpful!

Yep, that dog has tooooo much hair for me too! I think they are just getting too carried away with that! Oh, well, I'm sure there are those that love it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

jester's mom said:


> Thank you so much for posting these photos. It is always great to see the dogs that are showing and the ones that win, and to see the clips they have. Very helpful!
> 
> Yep, that dog has tooooo much hair for me too! I think they are just getting too carried away with that! Oh, well, I'm sure there are those that love it.



me.... I just wish I could know that when I see a Spoo look like this that it is natural and there is no cheating involved.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Even if there were no cheating involved, that dog can't just be a dog or someone's pet. It has to be banded and treated with kit gloves in order to maintain that hair. What are we doing with these dogs if we aren't loving them as pets first? If they are just living in some handler's kennel waiting to finish their championship when their family is at home waiting on them, it's just sad. What I like to see are the ones that are beautifully groomed where they look like they can be someone's pet and someone's show dog at the same time. It's a lot less hair but oh well. If judges put a stop to all of that and stopped putting up the dog with the huge mane of hair this wouldn't get out of hand more than it already is.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Even if there were no cheating involved, that dog can't just be a dog or someone's pet. It has to be banded and treated with kit gloves in order to maintain that hair. What are we doing with these dogs if we aren't loving them as pets first? If they are just living in some handler's kennel waiting to finish their championship when their family is at home waiting on them, it's just sad. What I like to see are the ones that are beautifully groomed where they look like they can be someone's pet and someone's show dog at the same time. It's a lot less hair but oh well. If judges put a stop to all of that and stopped putting up the dog with the huge mane of hair this wouldn't get out of hand more than it already is.


Well said, totally agreed.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, all of our show dogs had fantastic coats and were also well loved house pets. And back then, the ruffs were not shorter as they are now, and puppies coats were LONG all over, not the nicely trimmed back half like you see now.

I love it, but this is why a lot of people choose not to show. The work and maintenance on these dogs is horrific. I think, in a perfect world, the AKC and CKC needs to allow people to show Poodles in coats like the UKC does. A lot more people would be inclined to show if their dogs didn't need to have all of this coat. Change the group they are in and clip them down. On top of everything else, it is hardly fair that a dog with all of that glorious coat can have angulation scissored in, tons of flaws hidden with all that hair, and they are competing against a dog like a Dalmation, where what you see is what you get.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

And it's funny that even though no hair spray is supposed to be allowed, all the handlers AT RINGSIDE were spraying away--just inches away from the judge. No attempt to even hide it. And chalk being sold by vendors at the show. Guess it just shows how much the norm it is. 

Think the poodles of all sizes that were there were with handlers. Didn't see anyone who looked like they were showing their own dog. That's a little disappointing because I plan on showing mine. But just have to be determined, no matter how stiff the competition. Because ultimately it is supposed to be about how well the dog meets the standard, not who is handling the dog. Although a handler does have an edge in knowing the judges and which judges like what things, tips/tricks to help show the dog, less nerves and practice, practice, practice. I've met a handler who lives close who said she would teach me how to keep coat, groom my puppy and could show her on an occasional weekend if I wasn't going to a certain show and she was. Maybe that is a possibility. But I don't want to send her off for months at a time. 

I loved the way my friend's poodle (competing in Obedience) was groomed. She does it herself and both her dogs look wonderful. Also, guess it would be easier to start out showing conformation in smaller shows. Know that dbrazzil shows her toy herself even if it is an uphill battle. Go Debbie!


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

Great pics thanks for posting them! 

I've been reading The Complete Poodle by Del Dahl and there are many dogs in the book from the 50s, 60s and 70s who have just as much hair and sometimes more than the showdogs today. Some of the toy dogs, made me laugh, they look like cotton balls w/ faces. Big hair is not a new idea or a fad, although the style does change.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Meant to say, also, that a Standard and a toy were in the English Saddle clip. Kind of made me wonder what it was they were trying to hide.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> Great pics thanks for posting them!
> 
> I've been reading The Complete Poodle by Del Dahl and there are many dogs in the book from the 50s, 60s and 70s who have just as much hair and sometimes more than the showdogs today. Some of the toy dogs, made me laugh, they look like cotton balls w/ faces. Big hair is not a new idea or a fad, although the style does change.


That may be but I don't know that in those years you mentioned that people treated their dogs the way they do now. I think that dogs have become more involved with the family than ever before. It used to be that the family dog spent it's life outside or in kennels but that's just not the case now. They live inside with us, they sleep in our beds, (not mine but some people allow it) we make their food, we buy them expensive toys and beds, we spend money on "walkers" for them, we include them in most aspects of our lives, the amount of money spent on vet bills for preventative medications is extreme, and we go to great lengths to give them a comfortable life in their old age. Not to mention that we do things with them besides hunt, like agility, obedience, rally, weight pull, hunting trials, going to ground, etc.. I just think with the way that we've included these dogs in our lives that we should also do the same for those show dogs. They can't enjoy what goes on in the grooming process.


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I think its a pity that in order to show a dog they have all that hair. It means for the average person there is no way they are going to be able or willing to maintain it even if they they have a show worthy dog. Not to mention I shudder to think what all the: playing with each other, running through mud, digging, being my kids pillows and playing with the family etc. that my dogs do on a daily basis would do to a show coat. Its important that they have a wonderful life with us and be able to do all the things that a normal dog wants to do. I'm not sure that all this is entirely possible with show coats. This is just my opinion though. 

Most other breeds do not have these issues so I'm not sure why this should be the case with poodles. I think may shorter clips are stunning too and its a shame that poodles can't be shown in them in ckc or akc shows.


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## dbrazzil (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks for sharing!


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

amerique2 said:


> The dog was too big and had too much hair for my taste. I much preferred the smaller blue. (But, of course, I may be partial!)


The bigger the dog and the longer the neck, the more hair needed on top to balance the look.


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## Poodle Lover (Mar 24, 2008)

amerique2 said:


> Hey, if you want to see some big hair look at this one. The dog was too big and had too much hair for my taste. I much preferred the smaller blue. (But, of course, I may be partial!)


I love these dogs and I especially like the first one. Granted, I am strictly a fancier but I just love the larger dog. Correction, I love larger males and smaller females.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

I am not sure why everyone is so anti show dog all of the sudden. I am sorry to say if you think these dogs are ALL treated bad then I feel you have not been around dog shows enough to see how WELL most of the dogs are treated. 

Everyone keeps saying a show poodles is kennels all the time ...... This is not true. Enzo DEFIANTLY is not kennels 24/7 and neither is Argon. I think some people just get too obsessed with the coat care and this is what scares non show people. Enzo is wrapped and yesterday he went to play with argon. So what if the wraps gets messed up we will re do them. 

Dog showing is hard work and if you don't want to put work into it then find something else to do with your dog such as obedience , agility etc.....

I would also like to point out that everyone keeps saying big shot handlers only win ...... Again this is not true. The show I went to Tim Brazier did not win anything ...... 

Just because a few handlers,owners, and groomers choose to treat their dogs bad does not mean EVER show person does. Just remember that.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I am not sure why everyone is so anti show dog all of the sudden. I am sorry to say if you think these dogs are ALL treated bad then I feel you have not been around dog shows enough to see how WELL most of the dogs are treated.


Definitely agreed Roxy. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm for sure pro dog show! I think the only thing I have an issue with is these dogs with so much hair that their entire lives revolve around keeping their coats pristine. Not saying it's the majority, but we all know it's the case for some dogs. And I do think some of these specials have hair that is over the top and definitely not naturally achieved!

I personally think the coat requirements for showing in AKC (and CKC as well) are fine. I agree with you, if you don't want to keep the hair up then you need to either compete in UKC or turn to other venues to compete in. Anyone who competes in agility or obedience has to spend lots of time training and getting the dog ready to compete. If you look at conformation in the same way, then it's not a surprise you need to spend time grooming and keeping the dog in coat.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Cdnjennga said:


> Definitely agreed Roxy. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm for sure pro dog show! I think the only thing I have an issue with is these dogs with so much hair that their entire lives revolve around keeping their coats pristine. Not saying it's the majority, but we all know it's the case for some dogs. And I do think some of these specials have hair that is over the top and definitely not naturally achieved!


I think the hair care is easy because I have to treat my own hair the same way! Enzo is our first poodle And I think my sister and I are doing a great job on his coat and this is with little banding and wrapping. I know other people have multiple dogs so I can see how this creates an issue since some dogs chew on to each other. But I also do not freak out if something happens. 

If I told you guys what happened to my own hair some of you would have cried if it happen to you.( right now I have a bald spot on top of my head :scared: ) 

I think some people just take the dogs hair thing too far. I will always let my dogs be dogs.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I think most of us are talking about specials not the average show dog. Specials are an entirely different ballgame. Those dogs are NOT pets, do NOT get treated as pets, and live a life to protect the hair at all costs and they are the ones with the huge head of hair. 

As far as balance, if your dog can't look balanced in a shorter cut then you don't have a balanced dog period. If you need tons of hair to "balance" the look then your dog is probably too long in body and you are hiding it with hair to win. Win with that dog and breed unbalanced dogs, what difference does it really make? People are going to do what they want to do anyway.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> I think most of us are talking about specials not the average show dog. Specials are an entirely different ballgame. Those dogs are NOT pets, do NOT get treated as pets, and live a life to protect the hair at all costs and they are the ones with the huge head of hair.


again how do you know ? Did you see this for your self or just heard about it? I do not think Laurel Berg treats Shane in a foul matter he is a special. She also had Gretchen who is a BIS as well. I also do not believe Chris Bailey treats her specials she has out badly either. I know for sure she just did not give her dogs to just anyone who would treat them poorly. 

Like I said if you do not know for sure I think its kind of messed up to come to a conclusion all specials or show dogs are treated like this.......


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

I haven't seen for sure no but how in the world DO they protect that hair??? I'm not calling abuse roxy so I wish you wouldn't say that I am. I'm saying that the dogs aren't treated like pets. Pets are allowed to play with the other people in the house, other pets in the house, go places like Petsmart, be petted, played with, laid on, etc.. No, I don't live in their homes but I've talked to enough people to know what it takes to special a poodle and they are NOT pets in the general sense of the word.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> I haven't seen for sure no but how in the world DO they protect that hair??? I'm not calling abuse roxy so I wish you wouldn't say that I am. I'm saying that the dogs aren't treated like pets. Pets are allowed to play with the other people in the house, other pets in the house, go places like Petsmart, be petted, played with, laid on, etc.. No, I don't live in their homes but I've talked to enough people to know what it takes to special a poodle and they are NOT pets in the general sense of the word.


Wiggies is a start ....... wrapping and banding just like all the other non special poodles. 

I would not run around and say just because a few people told you something does not mean its true for everyone. If my sister gets a special one day , I think its crazy you think we would treat them like a staute. :wacko: NOT everyone is the same.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

But you guys own one dog. That's so different than a professional that owns many dogs and sometimes other breeds. The work of one dog is very time consuming, can you imagine the work of multiple dogs? I mean Carol herself said that she took one of hers into the lake and it ended up a matted mess that had to be completely shaved down. 

I'm definitely not saying that people are abusing their dogs they just aren't people's "pets" is all.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

All of our dogs were pets first, show dogs second. They romped and played and went out to the yard together. The coat is a TON of work, but if you are into showing, we used to find it well worth the effort. Nearly every dog in the ring has its tail up and is content around other dogs. If they were deprived of other canine company on a general basis, they'd likely go nuts when they saw the other dogs in the ring. I think if anything, show dogs usually get more attention an dplay time, because you want that dogs personality to shine out of it when it is being shown, and you want it to exude confidence and self esteem, so it has a "Hey, why are you looking at that one" attitude.

I will reiterate though, if people had options about a continental vs. 1" of coat like they have in UKC, more people would likely look at showing. I know I would.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> But you guys own one dog.  That's so different than a professional that owns many dogs and sometimes other breeds. The work of one dog is very time consuming, can you imagine the work of multiple dogs? I mean Carol herself said that she took one of hers into the lake and it ended up a matted mess that had to be completely shaved down.
> 
> I'm definitely not saying that people are abusing their dogs they just aren't people's "pets" is all.


We plan on getting more poodles in the furure and I would never TREAT my dogs like that. There are many people who are into showing that are like my sister and I. 

Yes but Carol did not say her dog was locked up after that now did she ? lol


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> All of our dogs were pets first, show dogs second. They romped and played and went out to the yard together. The coat is a TON of work, but if you are into showing, we used to find it well worth the effort. Nearly every dog in the ring has its tail up and is content around other dogs. If they were deprived of other canine company on a general basis, they'd likely go nuts when they saw the other dogs in the ring. I think if anything, show dogs usually get more attention an dplay time, because you want that dogs personality to shine out of it when it is being shown, and you want it to exude confidence and self esteem, so it has a "Hey, why are you looking at that one" attitude.
> 
> I will reiterate though, if people had options about a continental vs. 1" of coat like they have in UKC, more people would likely look at showing. I know I would.


I agree ! I have seen dogs in the ring who do not want to be there, I have even seen dogs run away from their OWNER in the ring. These people are the ones who probably treat their dogs badly. Or breed bad temperaments

I remember this lady had a setter puppy in the ring and the poor dog had its tail between its legs and would not trot because it was SCARED. The dog was either treated badly or it had a bad temperament in general.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

No but I'm saying that the work that goes into it is massive and if you want to keep it, you have to preserve it by not treating the dog the same as you would if it was shaved down. She didn't and had to start from scratch and I bet she was different the next time around to preserve the hair and get her finished. Once they are finished they get to be shaved down and go back to their regular lives. I've heard this statement over and over. 

Showing poodles isn't for everyone and many people don't have the time or heart to do it and that mainly comes from the grooming aspect of the breed. Like Arreau said if dogs were shown in cuts that were more manageable for the normal person more people would show but again it matters not because this is the way it is so this is the way you have to be in order to compete.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> All of our dogs were pets first, show dogs second. They romped and played and went out to the yard together. The coat is a TON of work, but if you are into showing, we used to find it well worth the effort. Nearly every dog in the ring has its tail up and is content around other dogs. If they were deprived of other canine company on a general basis, they'd likely go nuts when they saw the other dogs in the ring. I think if anything, show dogs usually get more attention an dplay time, because you want that dogs personality to shine out of it when it is being shown, and you want it to exude confidence and self esteem, so it has a "Hey, why are you looking at that one" attitude.
> 
> *I will reiterate though, if people had options about a continental vs. 1" of coat like they have in UKC, more people would likely look at showing. I know I would*.


Yes, but would those dogs belong in the ring? Look at some of the dogs that have UKC titles and look at the breeders. Many of the dogs should never be bred, they are so out of standard. Many of the breeders that only get the very basic UKC title are questionable breeders themselves. (One has been discussed on this board numerous times. She claims that hair is the reason her dogs don't compete in AKC. The truth is many wouldn't stand a chance once the judge put there hands on them.) I think it's important to remember that the judges don't just look at the dog in a stacked position and hand out ribbons. They watch movement, check for conditioning and put their hands on the dogs. 

Do you show in UKC, you do have that option and if hair is the only reason you don't show, then why not put Grand Champion titles on your dogs in UKC? There is more that one option.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I agree ! I have seen dogs in the ring who do not want to be there, I have even seen dogs run away from their OWNER in the ring. These people are the ones who probably treat their dogs badly. Or breed bad temperaments
> 
> I remember this lady had a setter puppy in the ring and the poor dog had its tail between its legs and would not trot because it was SCARED. The dog was either treated badly or it had a bad temperament in general.


Dog shows are very scary places and unfortunately the ONLY place to get that experience is at the shows.. Or fun matches. Was this show entirely indoors? Tha tis SUPER scary as it is very echoey...It does not mean that the dog had a temperment problem or was abused  Just scared of the environment or the circumstances.. Some dogs are better than others at adapting I have had both kinds ....
Trust my dogs are and never were abused..


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> Dog shows are very scary places and unfortunately the ONLY place to get that experience is at the shows.. Or fun matches. Was this show entirely indoors? Tha tis SUPER scary as it is very echoey...It does not mean that the dog had a temperment problem or was abused  Just scared of the environment or the circumstances.. Some dogs are better than others at adapting I have had both kinds ....
> Trust my dogs are and never were abused..


No this setter i saw was outside show, she did not socialize the dog or just could have a temperament issue. We took enzo to many places and shows before we actualy put him in a show to get him used to it. Our teacher told us about indoor shows Enzo's first show was indoor and he was not scared of echoes or anything. He was struting his stuff. I gues I forget a lot of people don't do the same things I do with my own dogs I do a lot of conditioning before I put them in any event or sitituation. I don't like scary dogs ! 

IMO your dog should not run from you at all, I seen a grown Amstaff run from its owner ........ it had been to show plenty of times.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> No this setter i saw was outside show, she did not socialize the dog or just could have a temperament issue. We took enzo to many places and shows before we actualy put him in a show to get him used to it. Our teacher told us about indoor shows Enzo's first show was indoor and he was not scared of echoes or anything. He was struting his stuff. I gues I forget a lot of people don't do the same things I do with my own dogs I do a lot of conditioning before I put them in any event or sitituation. I don't like scary dogs !
> 
> IMO your dog should not run from you at all, I seen a grown Amstaff run from its owner ........ it had been to show plenty of times.


She may have been new herself to shows and to the breed . The sad part is if she does not correct this then it will be over for the dog and for her to.. You were fortunate to get good advise. I did too I think that if you learn the right way you are bound to be successful....


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## SusanMallery (Dec 10, 2009)

What wonderful pictures! My favorite is the toy who thought she was getting a treat.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

bigredpoodle said:


> She may have been new herself to shows and to the breed . The sad part is if she does not correct this then it will be over for the dog and for her to.. You were fortunate to get good advise. I did too I think that if you learn the right way you are bound to be successful....


I agree she could have been new. I dunno because I can not remember but over the 12 years I have been going to AKC shows I have seen some weird stuff. The people helping us now are helping us with the grooming my sister and I have been dealing with dogs for a very long time. I help people train their dogs ( i might start training as a business but not real sure if I want to) Argon ( she is new one here) might let me watch him for a week , we have been meeting up and helping her train him. This is her first dog ever lol and she wants to show so I am happy to have met her ,to help her out.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

I think if you are committed to showing your poodle (considering you have one that has no major faults and is a good representative of the breed), you grow coat, take conformation classes, get helpful advice, show her as much as you can, and give it your best effort for a sufficient amount of time. Hopefully, that produces a championship. If not, you consider hiring a professional to show her until she is finished (especially, and, in most cases, because your contract requires her to be a champion before the breeder/co-owner signs off and you completely own her). After that, you can groom her the way you want to. When I've watched poodles being groomed at the shows, they lie quietly and either endure or actually enjoy the attention. Know most were started very young being groomed and it is not anything out of the ordinary to stand still on the table.

I want to show my poodle because I like the competitiveness of showing and the fun atmosphere and camaraderie of the shows. If it is necessary to groom her a certain way to play the game, that's what you do. Would love it if the clips were less elaborate, but they're not. So, I'm going to try to earn as many points as I can while she's a puppy with the simpler puppy clip  and then deal with the Continental when I have to. And just think how proud you'll be when you beat a "professional". I love being the underdog!!!


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Meant to say, CBrand, that I see what you are saying about how the hair affects the dog's balance and proportion. Guess I'm just not a fan of the really big standard and prefer one that is smaller.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Our spoos are family members first and show dogs second. They play outside, they travel all over with us and lay on each other, they are loved on by people wherever we go. And, we don't worry about someone touching their hair. That is what they love best about hugging our spoos. And, yes, we have to put a lot of time, effort, and expense into maintaining those coats. But they are not china and I would never put them into a kennel or crate them endlessly. 

I have seen this by another breeder where a competing puppy in conformation was crated in a crate that was barely big enough for him to lie in on his belly. He was allowed out to do his business and then re-created. It broke my heart that this was all he had to look forward to until he finished his career.

I do not believe this is the norm for conformation show dogs though. There certainly are those who do this but I believe that most of the dogs have it better than that. _


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

amerique2 said:


> Meant to say, also, that a Standard and a toy were in the English Saddle clip. *Kind of made me wonder what it was they were trying to hide.*


I know it's totally a faux paux to bring alive a thread that is 3 years old, lol.

But this sentence of yours, amerique, is a bit concerning to me and I hope you have rethought it since in the past 3 years. 

I can assure you, that as someone who has a dog in ES, it is NOT necessarily done to hide something. My dog is in ES not to hide anything, but to _stand out_. Most people choose not to do this trim because it requires exponentially more grooming than a continental. I find it so incredibly unnerving that so many people ask what I am hiding with my dog because he is in ES. The answer? Absolutely NOTHING. Put your hands on the dog. Watch them move. Then you will know.


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey, CM, mea culpa!! Don't hold that ancient post against me! ;-) I can honestly say I have changed my mind since that post. And your Tiger was one of the reasons why. As I recall, the two specimens in that show were not shining examples of the ES clip. Their grooming left much to be desired and brought attention to the not-up-to-par grooming. 

I can certainly see where the ES does stand out in the crowd! And as such, it's important for your dog/bitch to be worthy of the extra attention. Tiger certainly fits the bill.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*amerique2*: Just want to say you are one_ very_ classy lady! Your "good breeding" and "stable temperament" shine through in your mature-minded, thoughtful response. Where someone else might have replied, "Is this thread_ still_ going on?," or "Does this thread have a _purpose_?", you graciously handled a question out of_ old_ left field. Though I'm not a big fan of the ES, I am a fan of members like yourself who demonstrate flexibility, good humor and the ability to consider things from different angles. You rock, no matter what hair 'do you favor!!:adore:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> *amerique2*: Just want to say you are one_ very_ classy lady! Your "good breeding" and "stable temperament" shine through in your mature-minded, thoughtful response. Where someone else might have replied, "Is this thread_ still_ going on?," or "Does this thread have a _purpose_?", you graciously handled a question out of_ old_ left field. Though I'm not a big fan of the ES, I am a fan of members like yourself who demonstrate flexibility, good humor and the ability to consider things from different angles. You rock, no matter what hair 'do you favor!!:adore:


 It's surprising how well you are able to be hurtful under all of that fluff. You have really hurt my feelings, Chagall's Mom. It really stings when someone says something like that. People make mistakes, but is the answer to come back and haunt that person with jabs?

I could have started a new thread, I acknowledged that. But I thought it was okay to resurface this thread since it applied to something I've noticed a lot lately: the majority of people who see a dog in english saddle wonder what is wrong with the dog/what are they trying to hide. I am sure that is the case sometimes, but it's also often the case that someone is willing to do the extra grooming and wants to stand out. I just wanted to bring awareness to that.  

It's obvious you don't understand me, Chagall's Mom. I am an extremely sensitive and kind person. Anyone who has ever met me in person knows this. Am I socially perfect? No. Do I say things out that don't make sense or that get misinterpreted sometimes? Absolutely. But I only ask for forgiveness. I nearly always have good intentions yet feel like I am forever misunderstood.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*CharismaticMillie*: Your views of my "fluff" factor, and your "feelings," are your own business. We are both free to post as we wish. I will go no further in this conversation, regardless of who may pile in, or on, and what opinions they may hold. Those are my feelings in the matter.:wavey:


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Chagall's mom said:


> *amerique2*: Just want to say you are one_ very_ classy lady! Your "good breeding" and "stable temperament" shine through in your mature-minded, thoughtful response. Where someone else might have replied, "Is this thread_ still_ going on?," or "Does this thread have a _purpose_?", you graciously handled a question out of_ old_ left field. Though I'm not a big fan of the ES, I am a fan of members like yourself who demonstrate flexibility, good humor and the ability to consider things from different angles. You rock, no matter what hair 'do you favor!!:adore:


I'm wondering what you're trying to achieve with this? It was a little uncalled for since you're intentionally trying to upset CM.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> *CharismaticMillie*: Your views of my "fluff" factor, and your "feelings," are your own business. We are both free to post as we wish. I will go no further in this conversation, regardless of who may pile in, or on, and what opinions they may hold. Those are my feelings in the matter.:wavey:


Is there something I am missing? Have I done something to you so extraordinarily wrong that you have no desire to get along? I surely care about your feelings and anyone else's whom I could impact. I would hope that if I hurt someone's feelings they would let me know, so I could see my mistake and make amends.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

It's easy to recognize veiled sarcasm and not fun to be the recipent. And some actually relish doing it and will never apologize for hurting someone else's feelings.

Even if posts are "old" to some members, I see many "new" members daily who would very much like to know the useful information in them. We don't really know all the right questions to ask and to search.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

amerique2
Did you ever decide to show? The first post caught my eye since the Jackson show was not too long ago so I was thinking it was that show you went to lol. Then I saw the post was from 2009 lol. I hope you decided to give it a chance. I found it well worth it, many prohandlers I have met are very nice, and if you have a nice dog you will do some winning against them... Course you have to work hard on handling skill too but very doable!


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

As Gilmore Girls say... "Oy with the poodles already!" - CM, thanks for resurfacing this thread. Not everyone has been on this forum long and it's nice to see some oldies but goodies! I love all the photos on here. You guys are great who are so dedicated in showing your poodles. Please keep improving the breed standard, and I've found the talks about hair regarding show dogs interesting.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I think resurrecting a once productive thread versus one rambling on over and over and over again about how "nice - respectful people" disagree with someones opinion are two different things. Just keeping it real here. 

It amazes me how the "peacemakers" and "nice guys/gals" can turn around and be so judgemental and hypocritical at the same time! But as we know, everyone is human! Right  

With that said I can see how people would use the ES as a way to hide flaws as it is very forgiving  however it has to be one of the most difficult to maintain and win with because it does not catch everyones eye. So go Tiger! I still cannot wait to see him in his CC!


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## amerique2 (Jun 21, 2009)

LSH, haven't got my poodle yet! But when I do, I'm going to show her in Conformation and Obedience, and maybe Agility. In the meantime, I continue going to shows--meeting owners, handlers, breeders and learning all I can. I've met lots of great people through the shows. Planned on driving over to Pine Bluff, AR this morning but it's pouring down rain. Think I will wait and see if tomorrow offers better driving weather. So nice to hear that you've enjoyed showing.


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