# I'm so upset and outraged!



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've seen idiotic emulations of Cesar Milan and other animal abusers like Brad Pattison. I've seen people mistreat their dogs and I've seen the results. But this has me shaking with anger and pity for their dog. And who knows...probably their kids. Here's the story: Some moron walking with his wife, I assume and a whole bunch of little kids (don't know if they're all theirs or what) and a big mastiff just walked along the sidewalk in front when I was gardening. He repeatedly kept kicking this dog in the side and the dog wasn't doing anything but walking along nicely and calmly...just perfectly. He kept doing it and then he really gave it to her and she crouched away and yelped. I just couldn't take it another second and yelled out as he was a ways up the sidewalk by now, "Knock it off! Don't treat an animal like that! You'll cause aggression." He said some stupid, placating remark, like she's ok, she's a good dog. The wife said the same thing..."we've had her for years." I said, "That's abusive!" I had no affect because I was so angry and upset for this dog. :angry: Obviously, these morons watch Cesar Milan. You see what harm that *****$$$##@@ has had on dogs?!?! And people on these forums sometimes say things like, "Dogs are different. It's just another technique. All methods don't work for all dogs." So in other words, abuse and man handling is a freakin' method! I'm just so freakin' p.o'd! 

I tried to find the video I saw once of Cesar kicking a dog just the way this guy did but it's been taken off apparently. Here's another demonstration of abuse and total ignorance about dogs. TOTAL! And people are watching and copying him!!! He ought to be arrested for animal abuse!

Why The Dog Whisperer Has Dog Training Entirely Wrong - PawNation

I guess I'm just venting but what would you have done? What should I have done? Stayed calm and submissive? lol. Grrrrrr.


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## DreamAgility (Sep 2, 2013)

I know what you mean. Once a lady came to help with my dog 4h group that I help with and she praised Caesar the whole time she drug and beat her dog. She told the kids her dog was well trained because she knew how to train from watching Caesar. Her dog was dragging in a "heel". Then she continues by taking the kids dogs an showing them how to do it too! When I demonstrated heeling with dreamer, all the kids and parents were like "How do you get her to do it and look at you with a smile???" I have since reformed the group. Dreamers breeder came to help once an yelled at the woman for the abuse and she never came back.


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I cannot stand animal abuse... I think I would have went off on this guy or maybe even called the police. What a jerk-face!


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Just a heads up - this thread has been reported as potentially being a drama starter. I'm here to let everyone know to keep it respectful with each other... 

I'm also going to mention that I don't believe everything Caesar Milan does is horrific. I actually like watching his shows and believe that he wants to help the dogs he works with... I've seen some videos where people say he's being abusive to the dog he's training, but when I watch it I don't see abuse. In my opinion, abuse includes negative emotion and I've never seen him display negative emotion when with dogs... I also like and respect Pat Parelli (Natural Horse*man*ship) and I've heard people say that Pat is abusive, but I've never witnessed it - he's similar in that I've never seen him aggress towards a horse with negativity... I spent two weeks with Pat and Linda Parelli in Florida and it was a great experience! 

I do agree that when the "average" person tries to emulate training methods with which they're not familiar, it's more likely they'll become frustrated and negative with their own animals (dogs or horses) I've learned that when handling either my canines or my equines (I have two of each!) it's a lot more fun for me when I leave ALL negative energy behind. That way, no matter what training method I employ it's more effective for all of us! 

That's my opinion!! Thanks for respecting it!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

You've got to be kidding! Surely you jest. So it's against the rules that I have make a post about someone I saw today abusing a dog? And that it upset me? That's a "drama" starter? What the hell does that mean? 

Okay, so we all need to have the opinion that kicking dogs is okay just like puppy mills are okay. Well have it your way then. Gone.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Obviously, these morons watch Cesar Milan.


Just curious... Did these people tell you they watch Cesar? I just told you *I* watch him, but I don't believe anyone would find it "obvious" just by observing me with my dogs. I'm fairly certain my dogs are quite happy with me! They tell me every day! :beauty:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

These people did the exact same, very specific maneuver that Cesar shows on the video that I can't find anymore because it was taken off the Internet. It was obviously learned from him. It's the right foot crossing behind the left leg and giving a quick kick to the ribs. This man with his dog did it repeatedly and the dog shrunk back in fear and yelped in pain. I call that animal abuse anyone who thinks that's okay is not someone I want anything to do with.

I didn't say _everyone_ who watches Cesar Milan abuses their dog or is a moron. I said that these_ particular _morons obviously watch Cesar Milan. There's a big difference. I can't believe that this thread was going along fine with people expressing their disdain for abuse until you came along and stirred things up. Who's starting the drama? Jesus. I come on here and post about something that IS drama. It's upsetting to animal lovers anyhow. What kind of moderation is going on here?


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## sweetheartsrodeo (Sep 19, 2012)

I want to apologize if my comment offend any one. I'm sorry.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well Sweethearts...your comment probably offended someone to be sure. I see it's against the rules to speak out against animal abuse or have disdain for people like those I saw today on my sidewalk or people who do what is shown on that link I posted of CM. I see that we must all be sheep who follow along with whatever _certain_ other people think. If CERTAIN people don't like what we say, we must go along with them and keep our mouths shut. I'm beginning to see a pattern here.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If this had been seen in the UK, and caught on camera, there would have been an abuse case on its way to the courts. But it is very hard to know what one can do in these circumstances - I always fear that people who are aggressive with their dogs will react aggressively to any intervention. If possible I recommend a reliable local training class, but sometimes even that is not possible... Sometimes I wish that I was six foot four and built like a Rugby player, and not such a physical coward!


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

There are aggressive people and there are aggressive dogs. The aggressive people do not always have the aggressive dogs. Reacting to another persons aggression is regarded as aggression. Best to turn the cheek unless serious harm is done. Then it should be reported. Be aware that in order to make a successful report you do need evidence. Photo's, witnesses and your affidavit. Do not add to the total pile-up of the aggression. The stress on you; can kill you.
EWD


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

plumcrazy said:


> I'm also going to mention that I don't believe everything Caesar Milan does is horrific. I actually like watching his shows and believe that he wants to help the dogs he works with... I've seen some videos where people say he's being abusive to the dog he's training, but when I watch it I don't see abuse. In my opinion, abuse includes negative emotion and I've never seen him display negative emotion when with dogs... I also like and respect Pat Parelli (Natural Horse*man*ship) and I've heard people say that Pat is abusive, but I've never witnessed it - he's similar in that I've never seen him aggress towards a horse with negativity... I spent two weeks with Pat and Linda Parelli in Florida and it was a great experience!
> 
> I do agree that when the "average" person tries to emulate training methods with which they're not familiar, it's more likely they'll become frustrated and negative with their own animals (dogs or horses) I've learned that when handling either my canines or my equines (I have two of each!) it's a lot more fun for me when I leave ALL negative energy behind. That way, no matter what training method I employ it's more effective for all of us!
> 
> That's my opinion!! Thanks for respecting it!


I think the key is that there are many different methods of training and while we can all easily agree about the harshest of them always being inappropriate and more importantly abusive, and we can all easily agree about the value of +R techniques, not all things are so obviously black or white. There are many techniques in between hanging a dog by a choke chain and saying good dog here's a treat that some would find harsh and others would find mild looking at the same thing.

As to the OP, kill 'em with kindness. Anger will just generate more anger. Using anger to call out something moronic is just circling the drain IMO.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I could not watch a dog walking along nicely and being kicked repeatedly. I'm glad that you spoke up, instead of being silently outraged.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I don't understand why this thread was reported... the last time I looked this was a forum where people discuss dogs. We do not have to all be on the same page and agree all the time. I have never understood why some people think it is wrong to disagree. 

I have never seen CM abuse a dog. I think he has done a lot of good by if nothing else, teaching people that they need to walk their dogs. I don't agree with kicking a dog like you saw either and I am very proud of you for speaking up. More people need to be the voice of all animals. Thank you !


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

fjm said:


> If this had been seen in the UK, and caught on camera, there would have been an abuse case on its way to the courts. But it is very hard to know what one can do in these circumstances - I always fear that people who are aggressive with their dogs will react aggressively to any intervention. If possible I recommend a reliable local training class, but sometimes even that is not possible... Sometimes I wish that I was six foot four and built like a Rugby player, and not such a physical coward!


Unfortunately, in _this_ country people have been brainwashed to be ostracized if they are deemed judgmental. In other words, it has become a politically incorrect thing to do to make a judgment about anything...to state what one thinks is right or wrong, lest _someone somewhere _is offended.

People have adapted this _"there is no right answer"_ attitude as gospel. _Everything_ is a gray area. There must be no such thing as black and white. I see it at a larger level and it trickles down the line right into the sewer. I see it on dog forums....people can't tell the difference between a training method, even a rather stern one and abuse. Kicking a dog repeatedly until it crouches and yelps is ABUSE. Frightening the bejeezus out of a dog, emotionally terrorizing it is abuse. It's* not *a training technique. What is wrong that someone can even entertain the idea that it is a training technique? Something is so very wrong with the human race. I hate how CM intimidates and bullies dogs. But even he didn't kick the dog as hard as this jerk did. But it was still a horribly, disrespectful ABUSIVE thing to do to an animal. 




> Reacting to another persons aggression is regarded as aggression. Best to turn the cheek unless serious harm is done.


Eric, I am not aggressive. To try to defend an innocent animal by telling the guy to stop what he's doing is not an act of aggression. If someone were about to beat or kill another, and a 3rd person stepped in to stop the would-be assaulter, would you call that person aggressive too? WTF? Turn the other cheek? Hardly my style. Probably what I said wasn't effective. If I weren't so flabbergasted at such an assault on a dog, maybe I would have been able to say something about a training class. But the thing that stumped me was this dog wasn't acting up in any way. She was walking slowly right next to him, not doing one blessed thing wrong. (probably shut down from years of harsh "methods.") It all took me aback and all I could think of was STOP! Stop doing that! It was painful to watch. I don't think these people would be receptive to any kind of advice or suggestion no matter how it were presented. They'll probably come back and rip out my daisies. 

As far as offending the moderator here...this thread was not about her or anyone else on here. I've watched the dog whisperer plenty of times myself. And my dogs are treated gently. Why on earth would someone think I meant that anyone who watches CM mistreats their dog? That is just completely illogical and not what I said or implied. My meaning was, and I think my sentence structure supports this...that this jerk walking up my street must have watched CM to be doing this fancy foot work he did. It was very specific how he kicked the dog, exactly as I saw on the video, which was so disturbing, that apparently it was removed from the Internet. So the guy must have been watching and learning this "technique" from CM. But he carried it over-the-top and terrified this dog and caused her pain. Not a gray area to me. 

_IF_ it is true that someone reported this post as potentially drama causing....well, yes, I suppose it is. So what? Abusing animals is drama. People who go along with it make drama. It's dramatic. It's sudden and it's sizable. Disagreeing can be construed as dramatic...if it is dramatic or definite, substantial. 

Do people really think a forum should go along where everyone agrees exactly with what _certain_ people say? Which people then? Who reported me? (teacher's pet, teacher's pet:aetsch Who hates me so much that you'd report my thread about something I saw that I didn't like and simply wrote about it? What is it you fear about a discussion of this nature? I saw no likelihood of controversy, at least with most people on here who love dogs and would hate to see a dog kicked. _Most people._ I didn't think a thread about what I saw would stir up controversy or offend anyone here. I think it's the most illogical thing I've seen in a long time. What is it you're afraid of? Plumcrazy...I meant no offense to you. You need to understand grammar better or something. Maybe you're just feeling defensive. 

There have been plenty of threads and posts that offended me. Pit Bull threads when I like them. People who dislike Labs when I love them have posted nasty things about them. There are people who seem to be okay with puppy mills. That's offensive as hell to me. Unless someone has attacked me in a very strong and blatant way, I don't tend to report posts. If I do the same, I don't blame anyone for calling me out. Emotions can run high sometimes. Unless_ what _I posted is blatantly breaking a forum rule, then what's the point of chastising me so?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Poodlebeguiled*, Your thread topic made me think of this discussion http://www.poodleforum.com/7-general-off-topic-chat/131042-ugghhh-untrained-owners.html#post1527042 I posted there about the time I saw someone manhandle a dog and how I felt and reacted. So, to repeat myself... 

One day Chagall and I were walking along the path in the park when came upon a woman with a chow mix of some sort. The dog was laying prone on the ground, the owner had her foot on his back and was popping his leash _ over and over _again. He gave me _the most pitiful _look! It really pained me to see that dog looking as if he had no clue what was going on, or how to make it stop. I was really rattled. I silently cringed and seethed and turned around and went to my car. I sat there for a few minutes trying to figure out what I could do or say. I decided to leave Chagall safely in the car and walked back to the scene. But the dog and its owner were gone. I'd planned to ask her, "Is there anything I can do to help?" Not a stellar opener, but I thought it might be the best way to go. Frankly, I had no plan what to say after that. I just wanted her to stop her rough handling! Still disturbs me whenever I think of that scene. I can see still the confusion and distress in that dog's eyes. :Cry:

I can well understand how you must have felt seeing what you did. :mad3:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Thank you Chagall's mom. I do remember that thread....so very disturbing to me to think how many people are out there being so mean to their dogs. Domestic dogs didn't ask to be here. Humans more or less caused them to be where they are. They have given and continue to give so much. To disrespect them and hurt them pains me deeply and most of us dog lovers.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

I am glad you stepped up too poodleB. Drama thread, please, you have to to be kidding.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

I would have made a comment to those people as well, I can't stand any form of animal abuse and I know I wouldn't have been able to stop myself from saying something to them. For that I don't blame you. However, I just think you were being a little presumptuous in dragging Cesar Milan in to it and saying that they were using his methods....you don't know that.
I actually admire CM, have watched many, many of his episodes and I have never seen anything that even comes close to dog abuse. I think he has saved a lot of dogs from being rehomed and possibly even being euthanized and has opened people's eyes to the fact that a lot of bad dog behaviours are created by people.... It's the people that need training.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Critterluver...I've seen Cesar kick dogs in the name of training. I saw this guy walking up my street kicking his dog_ just _the same way. That _is_ using a so called "training" method that Cesar uses. I don't know what's inaccurate or presumptuous about my saying he was using Cesar's method of kicking a dog. I guess I don't know for a fact that he watched the show. Okay, fine. I'll give you that. I certainly do not like the way Cesar Milan handles dogs. He is not an expert and does not understand dog body language. He misinterprets it all the time. Did you look at that link I posted in the first post? Do you not think that is a strong form of intimidation and terrorizing? Most behavior experts can't stand the way Cesar Milan treats dogs. It's all bullying and suppression of behavior, not making the dog feel any better about anything. I guess we'd have to agree to disagree, as they say. I wouldn't want this thread to become more dramatic and having a differing opinion can do that. But I do appreciate that you appreciate that I made a comment. And of course dogs need training. I'll agree with that for sure. lol. Thanks for your response.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled, I too have seen the video where he kicked the dog to incite it. I don't have television and haven't for some years now, but it's not a show of interest anyway. Some of his videos are on the web and I've watched a few of them, enough to make me understand CM is not someone I'd be interested in following.

Not that I'm any great trainer myself. I've read that his books may have some good content and maybe someday after I get through more of the R+ people's books, then maybe I'll pick up a couple of his to peruse. At this point I am failing to read anyone to speak of, I'm so tired when off work.

Glad you spoke up to the couple walking by, hope your wrath planted a question in their heads.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Hugs Poodle B, I'd likely have kicked the man.


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## Critterluvr (Jul 28, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled.....you certainly are entitled to your own opinion regarding Cesar, I have no problem with that. I did not follow the link and I will when I get a spare moment. I don't want this to be a debate regarding CM and his methods, I realize everyone interprets things in their own way. I don't follow his methods religiously, there are some things that he does that I really like and find that they work, there others that I don't agree with so I don't use them.

I think the purpose of this thread that you started was really about the people abusing their dog and I applaud you for saying something to them. It's just hard to stand back and witness something so wrong..... :amen:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Critterluvr said:


> Poodlebeguiled.....you certainly are entitled to your own opinion regarding Cesar, I have no problem with that. I did not follow the link and I will when I get a spare moment. I don't want this to be a debate regarding CM and his methods, I realize everyone interprets things in their own way. I don't follow his methods religiously, there are some things that he does that I really like and find that they work, there others that I don't agree with so I don't use them.
> 
> I think the purpose of this thread that you started was really about the people abusing their dog and I applaud you for saying something to them. It's just hard to stand back and witness something so wrong..... :amen:


Yes! Good post! You're absolutely right about the purpose of this thread. thank you.


LOL Beaches!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled i appreciated your post and would have said something to anyone I ever saw kick a dog, or mistreat them, and I am one that uses both methods. I treat and praise, and if necessary I come down hard on them vocally, but would never touch one when up set with the dog. My voice alone will make then cringe when upset with something they do.

When I lose it I say. "get in your bed and do not get out, sit and stay, bad dog". Mine maybe be confused, but they really listen to me, especially if I am upset. I think vocal on small dogs works better thank contact. When I had dobs, I had to be a little aggressive, not abusive to control them.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

My Doberman was _very _sensitive. It was PR all the way. He became very advanced in his obedience and I didn't have to intimidate him. He was lovely, a CGC but did have a bit of dog reactivity which improved with clicker training. And so are my Poodles very sensitive. I am glad there are methods of training at our disposal that don't involve force, intimidation, threats and harshness. I don't believe in it. I think it erodes trust. And that's the core of my relationship with my dogs and how they trust to follow what I teach them. And PR methods work better imo...I've used both....more force way back when. I no longer believe harsh aversives have any place in training animals. I can whisper to my dogs and as long as they've _learned_ the meaning of the cue, they respond correctly...unless their motivation is flagging, in which case I need to beef up the reinforcement. Simple as that. I don't see my dogs as bad or naughty. They may just be more motivated by something else. That is not immoral because dogs don't share our morals or values. That's just simply the way they are. Whatever motivates them, they do...whatever works for them. People make the mistake of thinking dogs love us so much they want to please us or _should_ want to please us. _"Love thy owner_ myth," as Jean Donaldson puts it. 

Naturally, sometimes we lose patience. I'll sometimes holler to hush up when they're yapping. (because I have not trained them to stop well enough when I ask) I get nervous and then I holler. That is not training. That is me losin' it. I certainly don't expect to train them that way. But that is occasional and not my first choice to have them stop. It works better to change the subject, get them onto something else and reinforce for that or reward them for stopping the yapping. I just haven't taken the time as I should. (I'm busy with too many other things I guess)

But yeah....kicking a dog is really over the top!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

> People make the mistake of thinking dogs love us so much they want to please us or should want to please us. "Love thy owner myth," as Jean Donaldson puts it.


Thought I better clarify that statement a little better. Of course we know they love us a WHOLE lot. But the question is (and it's still being studied) does a dog have the cognitive ability to know enough, be able to think it all through as to how we feel...to know what pleases us per say? That involves a rather sophisticated degree of empathy that they don't think dogs possess. Empathy at some rudimentary level, I believe they have. In fact some kinds of testing has indicated that is probably true. But to know how we feel about a particular thing, what's going on in our thoughts in order to know what to do to please us is still out with the jury. So, traditional thought has it that they do things to please themselves. They do things that they're reinforced for. Is it as unromantic and plain as the Skinner box? I don't think so. But to rely on dogs doing things to please us winds up getting dogs into a lot of trouble and abuse is heaped on them for not pleasing us. They lack any morals at all. So to blame them for doing things we think they ought to know better for, doesn't make sense. They also don't have our value system. They ARE animals, after all.

So, this is why punishment, even when the dog did do something correct before and now is not...doesn't make sense. "The dog knows but blows me off." The dog might know but he's missed out on ample reinforcement or needs more training basically. He's not being stubborn or naughty. Dogs don't have those human qualities (morality and our values) to be stubborn or naughty. They're simply motivated more by something else in their environment. It's really as simple as that. It's how dogs ARE. So this harsh punishment stuff winds up causing an animal to fear, to become defensive, to get aggressive in it's self defense, to lose trust in humans. It doesn't teach the dog what TO DO. It causes a lot of other fall-out too, that I won't go into. You can find out from behaviorists online. 

So this is why I don't like Cesar Milan's forceful, intimidating, behaviorally unscientific ways and why I do like Kikopup's, Ian Dunbar's, Jean Donalson's, Susan Garrett, Patricia McConnell and _many_ other real behaviorist's...with advanced degrees in the science of behavior and many years of tried and true, proven methods that make sense with dogs....and why I HATE HATE HATE people who do things to dogs such as the macho tough guy kicking the s*#! out of his Mastiff on my road.

The neighbors next door have a Mastiff...a smallish one. She's lovely, gentle, wonderful with their little toy breed, their kids, the neighbor kids. She's treated gently. I fear what will happen to that other dog that was being kicked. People wonder why their dogs get aggressive. This aggression toward dogs is one big, fat cause of it. You can see it in the dogs Cesar works with. He riles them up with things that dogs don't understand, calls things dominance that aren't, reads body language completely incorrectly and works those animals up into a state where physiologically, their respiration, blood pressure, heart rate, stress hormones are all elevated. He stares at them, leans forward and over them, puts his hands out at them...all things that don't go with dog's understanding of anything but aggression. They shut down into a state of learned helplessness it's called where they stop behaving AT ALL. And he calls it calm submission. No, it's just submission and suppression. And then one day these dogs explode or live their lives feeling afraid to throw new behaviors...all non-conducive to learning. That's the tip of the ice berg why Cesar Milan is a terrible example to follow. There. I've said it. So :ban: Whatevs.


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