# Homemade Food Trial Diet??



## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

We've switched vets since my former vet continued to dismiss my concerns about Polly's itching. Our new vet is wonderful and gave Polly the most thorough exam she's ever had. She has put Polly on a 3 month, limited ingredient, food trial to see if her itching is caused by food sensitivities. We've had to switch heartworm prevention, doggy toothpastes, and all treats. 

After picking up a $55 bag of Natural Balance, sweet potato and fish that will only last a few weeks, I'm thinking seriously about making Polly's food until this food trial is over and we can start adding in ingredients one at a time. Potatoes and sweet potatoes are so inexpensive. Fish is more pricey but I'm wondering if it would save us a good bit of money if I just made it myself. 

The food is essentially potatoes, sweet potatoes, white fish, and salmon... along with vitamins. I was thinking about cooking those main ingredients for her and adding a vitamin supplement. 

Any thoughts? Has anyone had to do a limited ingredient food trial before? Any recommendations for a multi-vitamin supplement that are allergy trial friendly?


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I think home cooked is hard to get right. Why not just do a raw diet? If you have an itchy dog, I'd think feeding a bunch of carbohydrates would be the last thing you'd want to do. I know many people with dogs with allergies that feed a prey model raw diet. You do an elimination diet to see if a particular protein is an issue and if it is, you simply don't feed that protein. Of course, environmental allergies could also be an issue, and that's much harder to deal with. No diet change will fix that if your dog is allergic to something in the environment.


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## seminolewind (Mar 11, 2016)

Home cooked is great for a plain diet, like chicken and rice. Just know that it sounds good, but may lead to making you a slave to cooking all them meals up all the time. 

My dog scratches all the time. There's nothing there. No fleas, no redness, no spots, no baldness. Maybe it's a neurotic habit in mine. Or dogs like to scratch.

Have you looked into limited ingredient kibble?


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> I think home cooked is hard to get right. Why not just do a raw diet? If you have an itchy dog, I'd think feeding a bunch of carbohydrates would be the last thing you'd want to do. I know many people with dogs with allergies that feed a prey model raw diet. You do an elimination diet to see if a particular protein is an issue and if it is, you simply don't feed that protein. Of course, environmental allergies could also be an issue, and that's much harder to deal with. No diet change will fix that if your dog is allergic to something in the environment.


Our vet is starting with the food trial since Polly's itching is pretty steady all year round. 

I know there are lots that have had success with a raw diet but I'm not interested in giving it a try. It's just something that has never appealed to me. 
Why would home cooked be harder to get right than raw?


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

seminolewind said:


> Home cooked is great for a plain diet, like chicken and rice. Just know that it sounds good, but may lead to making you a slave to cooking all them meals up all the time.
> 
> My dog scratches all the time. There's nothing there. No fleas, no redness, no spots, no baldness. Maybe it's a neurotic habit in mine. Or dogs like to scratch.
> 
> Have you looked into limited ingredient kibble?


The limited ingredient kibble she's on is Natural Balance LID Sweet potato and fish. 

Polly scratches all the time too. We've lived with it for over 2 years now and I just can't let it continue. I imagine it is miserable for her to be itchy all the time. This is more than normal itching that all dogs (and humans) have.

I work from home and have summers off so I thought I could cook large batches of her food, freeze it, and then thaw what I needed for each meal. In the end, it may be worth spending the money on the kibble. It's just an idea I'm tossing around


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I do a combination of home cooking and raw - DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend has excellent advice on all sorts of home prepared diets and is well worth a look.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

I think home-cooked is a great idea (although I feed raw, I know it's not for everyone). If you are in the Triangle, I know a great vet who can help you.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

BeckyM said:


> Our vet is starting with the food trial since Polly's itching is pretty steady all year round.
> 
> I know there are lots that have had success with a raw diet but I'm not interested in giving it a try. It's just something that has never appealed to me.
> Why would home cooked be harder to get right than raw?


Because when you cook food, you cook some of the nutrition out of it, which means you then need to add it back in correctly in the form of vitamins and supplements. Raw, done correctly of course, is superior to home cooked for dogs. Dogs are facultative carnivores, they're meant to eat raw meat, bones, and organs. If you want to do home cooked, I would highly recommend getting with a veterinary nutritionist or someone who has extensive experience with a home cooked diet to make sure your dog gets everything she needs. Kibbles have vitamins and stuff added in, so just trying to cook what's listed on the bag of kibble is probably not going to cut it. If home cooked is what you want to do, I'm sure you can find a good mentor to help you do it right.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I had to do an elimination diet with my chow a long time ago. We did home cooked then because there were fewer foods available. I don't remember exactly what we did. He ended up being allergic/reactive to corn, wheat, soy, chicken, lamb, potato and rice. I do remember the whole thing being a pain because he was allergic to so much. 

Have you looked into doing Nutriscan testing? I've heard good things about it, and I would probably do that if I had to rather than try the elimination diet again.

Also, if you end up needing to try a food without Potatoes, Zignature makes quite a few limited ingredient kibbles without potatoes.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

fjm said:


> I do a combination of home cooking and raw - DogAware.com: Diet & Health Info for Man's Best Friend has excellent advice on all sorts of home prepared diets and is well worth a look.


Thank you! What a great resource!  



Liz said:


> I think home-cooked is a great idea (although I feed raw, I know it's not for everyone). If you are in the Triangle, I know a great vet who can help you.


No, we're farther west (winston-salem). Bummer. I'm hoping my vet will be able to help or at least will support me trying the homemade route. We'll see.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

My vet provided the recipe for home-cooked diets as an alternative to a commercial prescription food to prevent bladder stones. She obtained it out of a reference book, but I also found it through an online search. It contains brown rice, protein source, egg, oil, brewers yeast, bonemeal, salt substitute and multivitamin (pet-tabs). All of the supplements were readily available.

At the end of each recipe is the calories, protein, fat, sodium, and serving proportion by dog weight.

I wonder if this type of book would have similar diets for allergies.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks  I'll ask my vet. 

The more I research and look into this... it might just be better to just stick to the expensive kibble.  It shouldn't be so complicated to feed your dog. I mean, I feed my kids homemade food and they're healthy. I guess they eat a greater variety of foods than I'll be feeding Polly.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

BeckyM said:


> ... It shouldn't be so complicated to feed your dog.


That's why I feed raw. I know it's not for everyone, but it's sooo easy.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Okay, after doing more research, my head is spinning. I think the price of the kibble is probably worth it considering how difficult it would be to make her food. I'll just stick to making her treats. I have a dehydrator so I've been roasting sweet potatoes and drying them in stripes for chews and dehydrating some of the canned food in chunks for training treats.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

I think it is a great idea to cook food for your dog. Here's some info about why you might not want to rely on commercial dog food.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/10018997/Patrick06.html

I cook some but not all of my dogs' food. One cheap source of fish is canned wild salmon. I also use tilapia. Homemade diets should have some added calcium, and I use ground egg shells. I get my eggs directly from farmers so I feel comfortable with grinding the shells up and adding them to my dog's food -- not sure I'd want to do that with eggs that come out of factory farms.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

peppersb said:


> I think it is a great idea to cook food for your dog. Here's some info about why you might not want to rely on commercial dog food.
> https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/10018997/Patrick06.html
> 
> I cook some but not all of my dogs' food. One cheap source of fish is canned wild salmon. I also use tilapia. Homemade diets should have some added calcium, and I use ground egg shells. I get my eggs directly from farmers so I feel comfortable with grinding the shells up and adding them to my dog's food -- not sure I'd want to do that with eggs that come out of factory farms.


Thanks for the encouragement and info!  Maybe I could make half of her food. I'm really hoping she's not allergic to eggs and I can add them back into her diet after the 3 months. We have chickens so we have a constant source of free-range eggs and shells  I wonder if the bones from the canned salmon add enough calcium? I know that you're supposed to be able to eat the bones since they're softened in the cooking process.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I do half raw and half kibble, so I don't see why you couldn't do half cooked and half kibble. The key to making raw easy for me was making food in batches. My mom and I get together every 4 weeks or so, make a huge batch of food, and freeze it in individual daily bags (we make a grind of meat, bones, and organs). We make enough for Hans and her dogs. Then I just take a bag out of the freezer each night. Im definitely saving money, and Hans is eating better. 

I'm sure you could do something similar with cooking, and if you are including some potatoes it'll probably be even cheaper than my all meat mix. I think unless you feed raw bone you'll need a calcium supplement, but it shouldn't be too hard to figure out.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

That's what I do -- make about half of their food. They have free access to kibble. I use Open Farm kibble. It is new on the market -- the first Certified Humane dog food. Then for their afternoon meal, they each get 1/4 to 1/3 pound of meat, fish or eggs plus some potatoes, rice or bread and sometimes carrots. Bob also gets raw apples or bell peppers which he loves (Cammie and Sam don't like them). And I add ground egg shells to some of the meals.

I would think that the bones in canned salmon would help with the need for calcium, but I'm no expert. How fabulous to have your own eggs!


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Another idea, I believe you can send Jean Dobbs a blood sample to test for food allergies. I have no idea how reliable the results are or how much it costs, but your vet ought to be able to do the draw and send it off. Her company is Hemopet and the testing is called Nutriscan.

Please don't read this as an endorsement but merely a suggestion of something to look into.


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

After spending 4 hours making 36 cups of homemade dog food (some of that time was just waiting for things to cook), I think that expensive bag of kibble is well worth it! LOL 

For the 36 cups of food (potato, sweet potato, white fish & salmon) it cost $27 which is only slightly cheaper than the limited diet kibble. Considering the kibble is dried and the homemade food has a lot more water content, the cost is probably the same if you account for the water. 

Polly LOVES the homemade food but I think I'll save it for special meals and stick to kibble for now. Our house smells like fish (which dh hates) and I have a huge stack of dishes to wash. Oh well. It was fun to give it a try


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

BeckyM said:


> After spending 4 hours making 36 cups of homemade dog food (some of that time was just waiting for things to cook), I think that expensive bag of kibble is well worth it! LOL
> 
> For the 36 cups of food (potato, sweet potato, white fish & salmon) it cost $27 which is only slightly cheaper than the limited diet kibble. Considering the kibble is dried and the homemade food has a lot more water content, the cost is probably the same if you account for the water.
> 
> Polly LOVES the homemade food but I think I'll save it for special meals and stick to kibble for now. Our house smells like fish (which dh hates) and I have a huge stack of dishes to wash. Oh well. It was fun to give it a try


36 cups of food! Wow. Sounds like quite a chore. I sometimes cook enough for 2 or 3 nights, but never more than that. And I vary the ingredients.

I don't cook for my dogs because it is cheaper. I do it because it makes my dogs happy, especially Bob. Suppertime is the highlight of his day -- you wouldn't believe how much he looks forward to his supper. Cammie and Sam love their homemade suppers too, but they are nothing like Bob. I also cook for my dogs because I like to stay away from processed foods as much as possible -- it just seems like a healthier way to go.

Maybe when you get around to adding eggs to the limited ingredient diet, you could supplement kibble with eggs one night and canned salmon the next. Sounds like you have plenty of eggs!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> I think home cooked is hard to get right. Why not just do a raw diet? If you have an itchy dog, I'd think feeding a bunch of carbohydrates would be the last thing you'd want to do. I know many people with dogs with allergies that feed a prey model raw diet. You do an elimination diet to see if a particular protein is an issue and if it is, you simply don't feed that protein. Of course, environmental allergies could also be an issue, and that's much harder to deal with. No diet change will fix that if your dog is allergic to something in the environment.


Oshagcj914, you took the words right out of my keyboard. lol.

If I had a dog with itchy skin, (and I wasn't already feeding pmr, lol) I'd definitely cut out all carbohydrates. They don't need them. Potatoes, rice, vegetables, fruits...all that stuff turns to sugar and can cause all kinds of problems. Commercial food has way-y-y-y too many carbohydrates. 

One reason I don't feed cooked is that it kills a lot of the nutrients and dogs don't need their food cooked. Then you don't know what to put back in. The other reason is I'm lazy. It's more work... too many pots and pans to wash. No standing over the stove for hours. I do spend some time cutting and putting into bags for the freezer. Then putting in the meat, bone and organ into their bowls. That's it. They eat outside if it's nice and in their crates on a towel when it's not nice weather. 

But I realize it's not for everyone. I have a stomach that's unaffected by most gross things so this doesn't bother me in the least. I know some people's stomachs turn just at the thought of all that disgusting stuff. So yep...I get it totally.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

peppersb said:


> I think it is a great idea to cook food for your dog. Here's some info about why you might not want to rely on commercial dog food.
> https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/10018997/Patrick06.html
> 
> I cook some but not all of my dogs' food. One cheap source of fish is canned wild salmon. I also use tilapia. Homemade diets should have some added calcium, and I use ground egg shells. I get my eggs directly from farmers so I feel comfortable with grinding the shells up and adding them to my dog's food -- not sure I'd want to do that with eggs that come out of factory farms.




I've seen something like that article or maybe it was that article. It's been a while. Thanks for posting. More people ought to be forewarned. It is just horrendous what goes into commercial pet food. 

Here's one quote that caught my attention. 



> In addition to the “waste material,” six to seven million dogs and cats killed every year in animal shelters make their way into rendering vats.[170] The city of Los Angeles alone sends 200 tons of dogs and cats to a local rendering firm every month.[171] Road kill that is too large to be buried roadside, expired grocery store meats, and dead zoo animals are also thrown into the mix.[172] Recall from the discussion of the AAFCO ingredient definitions that meat and bone meal must exclude hair and stomach contents “except as may occur in good manufacturing processes.”[173] *Considering that a 40 lb bag of dog food costs only $15-$17, that price cannot possibly cover the amount of time necessary to remove all the hair and stomach contents from the thousands of diseased and euthanized animals thrown into the rendering vats, not to mention the Styrofoam and saran wrap packaging from expired grocery store meats.[174] In fact, it seems downright impossible. The rendering industry readily admits that meat wrappers are mixed in with its raw materials, their inclusion betrayed by the presence of polyethylene (used to make saran wrap) in rendered products*.[175]



Here's another:


> Rendering dates back to the days of the early Egyptians, but today it has been reduced to operating in the “shadows of polite society.[159] The rendering process begins with a large machine slowly grinding a vat of raw materials.[160] After the materials are shredded, they are cooked at 220 degrees F to 270 degrees F.[161] Cooking times vary depending on the raw materials and their intended use.[162] Once the material is cooked, the grease rises to the top where it is removed and used as a source of fat in pet foods, soaps and personal care products.[163] The moisture is eliminated from the remaining material by putting it through a press, and the finished product is sold to pet food manufacturers as meat and bone meal.


Well, the whole article is enough to turn my stomach...way, way, way more than the smell of raw green tripe does. LOL.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

BeckyM said:


> After spending 4 hours making 36 cups of homemade dog food (some of that time was just waiting for things to cook), I think that expensive bag of kibble is well worth it! LOL
> 
> For the 36 cups of food (potato, sweet potato, white fish & salmon) it cost $27 which is only slightly cheaper than the limited diet kibble. Considering the kibble is dried and the homemade food has a lot more water content, the cost is probably the same if you account for the water.
> 
> Polly LOVES the homemade food but I think I'll save it for special meals and stick to kibble for now. Our house smells like fish (which dh hates) and I have a huge stack of dishes to wash. Oh well. It was fun to give it a try


Ok, I swear I'm not trying to be the crazy raw chick...but in 4 hours a few weeks ago I repackaged about 200 lbs of meat, and for $27 I got about 30ish lbs of dog food. That doesn't even reflect my true cost because I get a fair amount of free stuff. How long that lasts also depends on the size of your dog - 30 lbs of meat would be about 12 days worth of food for my 120 lb Great Dane. I know raw is not for everyone, I really do, but for me, raw is cheaper than a mid-grade kibble, waaaayyyy cheaper than premium or prescription kibbles, and pretty easy to do (once you get past the learning curve). Just something to keep in mind. I can see how dedicated you are to your Polly - not many people would go to all that trouble for dog food! Hope you find something that works for you both.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I've seen something like that article or maybe it was that article. It's been a while. Thanks for posting. More people ought to be forewarned. It is just horrendous what goes into commercial pet food.
> 
> Here's one quote that caught my attention.
> 
> ...


Ok, that article is so gross! Definitely worse than tripe...although have you ever got a fresh one, like right from the cow? I got one from an Amish neighbor...never again! I cut it up outside and my whole property smelled like cow  all day! It was awful! Now the only tripe I get is Blue Ridge Beef tripe, and I feed it frozen and outside.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> Ok, that article is so gross! Definitely worse than tripe...although have you ever got a fresh one, like right from the cow? I got one from an Amish neighbor...never again! I cut it up outside and my whole property smelled like cow  all day! It was awful! Now the only tripe I get is Blue Ridge Beef tripe, and I feed it frozen and outside.


I haven't gotten tripe straight out of the cow...no. But I order it from Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow and it's been cut into large chunks and vacuum packed and frozen. Otherwise it's the same as what comes out of the cow...there's the green wrinkly stuff, a little stomach contents, but mostly the whiteish, firm stuff and then it comes with a little spleen attached since that's an adjacent organ. So, that is nice to get some additional organ too. It is_ most_ odoriferous. But once I clean up, including washing the little baggie it was in with hot, soapy water, there is no lingering smell in my house. This raw green tripe is a miracle food. It's just amazing and I feed a few small chunks every day. It's something I order regularly. No need for commercial, expensive digestive enzymes or probiotics. Tripe is LOADED with those things, naturally. And the calcium-phosphorus ratio is perfect. I'm sure you know this Oshagcj but for those who don't, I just love talking about tripe. lol. :hungry:

Is Blue Ridge cooked or in a can? What's it like?


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

BeckyM said:


> After spending 4 hours making 36 cups of homemade dog food (some of that time was just waiting for things to cook), I think that expensive bag of kibble is well worth it! LOL
> 
> For the 36 cups of food (potato, sweet potato, white fish & salmon) it cost $27 which is only slightly cheaper than the limited diet kibble. Considering the kibble is dried and the homemade food has a lot more water content, the cost is probably the same if you account for the water.
> 
> Polly LOVES the homemade food but I think I'll save it for special meals and stick to kibble for now. Our house smells like fish (which dh hates) and I have a huge stack of dishes to wash. Oh well. It was fun to give it a try


Wow BeckyM - your Polly is so lucky to have a devoted human willing to do that! Please realize that the food you made is worth way more than any kibble, no matter how expensive. Yours doesn't have rancid ingredients, artificial chemicals, preservatives, etc. Don't go by the price, go by the quality.

I too had looked into cooking my spoos food, until I learned that cooking kills so many of the enzymes in meat, and vitamins in other things, and that I would either have to pay high prices to put back in the lost nutrients in high quality form (or use lower quality man made enzymes and vitamins to add back in). 

I was very hesitant at first to try giving him raw meat, but by now I have gotten used to it and he no longer has any skin problems or itching and he is so much healthier. I also give him very high quality Omega Pet Oils by Nordic Naturals. That way I don't have to cook fish which I don't like the smell of either. I can just see your husband wrinkling up his nose.

After about 4 1/2 months of a total raw diet and those particular oils my spoo quit all itching, etc. Now when I see him even so much as give one scratch I am startled. 

If you have chickens that is wonderful. I am sure they are outside and not kept like commercial chickens in poor unsanitary conditions. They would be so healthy as protein, and their shells good for calcium. That membrane under the shell has lots of nutrients too. Any coyote or wolf finding raw eggs would know their value immediately

After reading that disgusting article about stuff in commercial dog food and kibble I am not in the least surprised that my dog got so ill on even expensive kibble. Yikes, I don't even want to think about that article.

Best wishes on getting all of your Polly's issues cleared up and finding the most nutritious food !


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## BeckyM (Nov 22, 2013)

Thank you all for all of the information and "food for thought".  I'll store it away under "things to think about for the future". I'm not ready to take that leap right now. 

Peppersb, I know Bob must love the homemade food. Polly sure is a fan!  That's a good idea to make just a little at a time. 
Yes, I'm really hoping I can add in chicken eggs at some point because my hens are laying more than 2 dozen a day! They wonder our property all day eating bugs and grass and the yolks are so dark orange. Fingers crossed she's not allergic to eggs!


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

I did a home made diet for a long time for my maltese. Until the little snot started to get picky about it :argh:

The easiest way I found to go was Just Food For Dogs under their DIY section you can order nutritional packets and follow their recipes to make it yourself. I would make large batches on the weekends and freeze them in portioned packets.  

I think raw is great but I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be. I prefer home cooked. (I say as I feed kibble.) Unfortunately DH prefers kibble. It was the source of many arguments


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I agree that it may be a lot simpler to stick with the veterinary recommended kibble while you work out what your dog can and cannot eat, and then think about whether there is a better way to provide the appropriate diet. I feed a combinatin of home cooked and raw which works for us - they get a good variety, enough raw including the 'orrible green tripe to cover enzymes etc, vegetables cooked with minced meat to provide extra vitamins, and are all thrivng after six or seven years, which is a lot longer than most commercial foods get tested for! I prepare the food myself because I like to know what is going into it, but I am retired with sufficient time to spend on both researching and shopping and cooking and portioning - even so, if my vet, who I trust, strongly recommended a commercial alternative for medical reasons I would probably give it a trial, at least while I read up on how to cook up something better (and cheaper) myself!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

shell said:


> I did a home made diet for a long time for my maltese. Until the little snot started to get picky about it :argh:
> 
> The easiest way I found to go was Just Food For Dogs under their DIY section you can order nutritional packets and follow their recipes to make it yourself. I would make large batches on the weekends and freeze them in portioned packets.
> 
> *I think raw is great but I don't think it's all it's cracked up to be. *I prefer home cooked. (I say as I feed kibble.) Unfortunately DH prefers kibble. It was the source of many arguments


My post isn't entirely in response to your post Shell, but more a general response to the various stances on commercial kibble, raw, cooked etc diets. Part of it is though. 

I disagree and think it is all it's cracked up to be. LOL. Dogs are one of, if not _the_ most phenomenally successful creatures to walk the planet Earth. How did these amazing animals survive and in fact, thrive _so well_ that they could reproduce and pass on their genes, and evolve so brilliantly if the diet they ate was not the perfect food for a canine? They didn't cook their food but ate raw meat and bones of their prey. Cooking is okay but it destroys many amino acids, enzymes, essential vitamins and other elements important to health that isn't lost in raw food. But it's _infinitely_ healthier than kibble if well balanced, of course. imo. It is thought by researchers that although dogs evolved convergently with humans of earlier times, they ate a prey type diet of their ancestors until quite recently. 

One completely unfounded argument to a raw diet that I sometimes infer from others' statements is that dogs have evolved significantly in the past 100 years, since kibble with all it's grain and other fillers was introduced. Well, we all know that that is ridiculous and untrue. Their digestive systems are unchanged and not different from other wild canines. 

When vets recommend kibble (especially Science Diet) and say that a species appropriate diet is not good, (for a variety of ridiculous reasons) I have to shake my head in disbelief. :suspicious:How in the world did they not only survive, but thrive well enough to evolve like they have? Kibble hasn't been around more than about 100 years. And dogs haven't cooked their food until fairly recently. lol. :act-up: 

I choose a species appropriate diet, a PMR diet for many reasons. But one reason I like raw vs. cooked is I believe it enhances the immune system, as it has all the essential elements intact...elements that serve the immune system well. Unaltered, unprocessed, the protein's amino acids are alive and well, keeping the nervous system and other systems working at their fullest. Taurine, for example is a non-essential amino acid, meaning that the dog can only produce it if he gets good quality protein. In addition to specific benefits for the brain (protective effects, calming effect on nervous system) taurine also affects blood sugar levels, which are related to seizure disorders. It helps in the body's use of calcium, sodium and magnesium. (deficiencies of which are all implicated in seizures) There is a connection between taurine and zinc deficiency which is also a known cause of seizures. So you see that there are amino acids, enzymes and other essential nutrients are vital to the nervous system, the immune system and really, the whole body's workings that are lost in over processing. I don't know which ones are affected by cooking and which may not be...perhaps not all but many are. Certainly, in kibble, the over processing and extreme tampering with mother nature has a detrimental affect on the nutritional value and over all health. There are many arguments to be made regarding longevity and the use of kibble. I've made them myself, as I had long lived dogs that were healthy on kibble. I'm sure some dogs get along better than others. But there are _many_ ailments that I believe are directly related to nutrition and we're seeing them more and more in recent years I believe. I think perhaps commercial food has gotten worse, not better. And that's why I chose as closely as I could, a diet that resembles what is natural to a canine, one that caused these animals to thrive and evolve so fantastically.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

There is scientific evidence that a species appropriate diet for dogs would include carbohydrates. Yes, I know that the term "species appropriate" is used to imply meat and lots of it. But a study published in 2013 indicates that dogs have evolved to eat starch as well as meat. Read about it here:
Diet Shaped Dog Domestication | Science | AAAS 

A few interesting quotes from the above article:

"Fido may prefer steak, but his digestive system is also geared up for rice and potatoes. That's the conclusion of a new study, which finds that dogs have evolved to eat a more varied diet than their wolf ancestors."

"More surprising were genes for digesting starch. Dogs had four to 30 copies of the gene for amylase, a protein that starts the breakdown of starch in the intestine. Wolves have only two copies."

"Axelsson thinks these results support the idea that wolves began to associate with humans who were beginning to settle down and farm. Waste dumps provided a ready source of food, albeit not meat, the usual diet. Thus early dogs that evolved more efficient starch digestion had an advantage, he notes."

"Robert Wayne, an evolutionary biologist who studies dogs at the University of California, Los Angeles, but was not involved with the work, is also pleased with the study. He says he gets contacted often by pet owners wondering if dogs, like wolves, should eat primarily meat. "This [study] suggests no, dogs are different from wolves and don't need a wolflike diet," he says. "They have coevolved with humans and their diet.""

So it sounds like the species appropriate diet for dogs is not the same as the wolf's natural diet. Interesting.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

peppersb said:


> But a study published in 2013 indicates that dogs have evolved to eat starch as well as meat. Read about it here:
> Diet Shaped Dog Domestication | Science | AAAS
> 
> A few interesting quotes from the above article:
> "Fido may prefer steak, but his digestive system is also geared up for rice and potatoes. That's the conclusion of a new study, which finds that dogs have evolved to eat a more varied diet than their wolf ancestors...... etc"


I can't comment on this study as I haven't been able to find the results of the original study. Do note that the quotes are from an article written by someone about the study. Here is the actual link to the article: Diet Shaped Dog Domestication | Science | AAAS

If someone has the original study I would be interested in reading it. I would like to know if dogs were really tested on potatoes, rice, and wheat, which are all mentioned in the article. 

What I would like to see is long term studies side by side on sibling canines on various kibble diets compared to balanced raw diets with bones, organs, etc included.

It also mentions humans adapting. I sure hope all species adapt.

All I know is that whatever carbohydrates, mixed with whatever man made additives and other stuff put in some of the top dog foods almost killed my spoo. After spending almost 2K on vet bills, various dog foods, vet specified dog foods, IV fluids, medications and tests, I am so glad I found out about a really good raw diet and insisted to my vet that he go on it before he was gone. 

Does anyone have access to the scientific study itself?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I've seen that Peppersb and other articles like it, as well as the opposing viewpoint. And other science suggests that although dogs_ can_ tolerate and digest _some_ carbs, they are not that good at it and it puts a lot of strain on the pancreas because there is no salivary amylase. Because dogs _can_ break down_ some_ starch does not mean it is optimum for them, according to other science. Carbs, imo, based on my own laborious research, are not needed by dogs and in fact, are the culprit in many health problems, especially in the huge amounts seen in commercial food. 

Those pointy teeth that both dogs and cats have are called canine teeth and they’re meant to tear and rip flesh. In fact all of the teeth of the dog and the cat are pointy and meant to eat meat. They’re both carnivores.

We humans don't have those long, sharp pointy canine teeth. But if you look in the back of your mouth, you'll see flat molars. Those are designed to grind food. Dogs and cats don't have those. Furthermore, their jaws are constructed in such a way that makes it impossible for them to articulate those jaws in that back and forth, side to side grinding motion we and other omnivores have that is necessary to grind plant matter. 

We and other omnivores have something called salivary amylase. It is the first step in breaking down carbohydrates. Dogs and cats have no salivary amylase. There is no wonder that kibble fed dogs' teeth look like hell. Starch and other carbs, which turn to sugar sits in their mouths, undigested and turn to plaque and tarter. 

Pancreatic amylase: These "scientific" studies claim that a dog's pancreas has amylase. That is not quite accurate. It can be produced and secreted by the pancreas. Dogs appear to have acquired and increased capacity compared to wolves to produce pancreatic amylase but the distribution of this is poorly distributed. Some dogs and some breeds have more difficulty than others. The carbohydrate load in a kibble fed diet puts a lot of strain on the pancreas. It forces the pancreas to produce unnatural amounts of amylase and it also causes spiking blood sugar levels, as the pancreas is responsible for producing insulin as well as other blood sugar regulating hormones. A stressed pancreas makes dogs more prone to pancreatitis where spilled digestive juices, including amylase damage internal structures. 

Having "4 times" (as it's said in something I read) more amylase than wolves do is one of the arguments for dogs doing "great" on starches. Having 4 times of a very little bit is not very much. Right?

The digestive tract of dogs and other carnivores is short and smooth, not designed to hold food for long periods of time, which carbohydrates need. We, on the other hand and other omnivores have _very_ long, convoluted intestines where the necessary time is allowed for the digestion of those very hard cell walls of plant material and starches to be digested.

You don't see coyotes or even feral dogs (that were once domestic) chowing down in a corn or wheat field for their main course. Wild dogs, feral dogs, wolves will eat a small amount of vegetation...berries and the like when it is present in their environment, probably because it's there...it's something tasty. But as a significant dietary addition, in the amounts we see in commercial food, no, it is not. Most raw feeders who feed plant matter feed probably about 5% of their diet in it which isn't that much. But look at the percentages in commercial food of carbohydrates. It's taking the place of meat. This is completely backwards. And it is not likely utilized, but goes out as waste.

So yes...dogs, some dogs more than others, some breeds more than others _can_ digest _some_ dietary starches. But at what cost? Look at the amount of waste product, the rotten teeth, the dull coats, the lack of energy. Too many obese dogs with diabetes, immune system problems, nervous system problems, more arthritis at a younger age... that they didn't have pre-cereal. In fact, _we _didn't have pre-agriculture days, according to archaeologists. Compare the condition of PMR fed dogs to kibble fed dogs. There's no comparison in condition imo.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Just want to clarify, the Nutriscan test by Dr. Dodds is a saliva test, not a blood test. You write to her, she sends you the little kit to do the saliva swab at home. You mail it back. Your vet doesn't have to be involved.

I home cooked for Misha for awhile. It was NOT standing over the stove for hours! lol

I peeled and cut Potatoes (sweet and white) into big chunks. Put white fish on top. Added a bit of garlic. Covered it and baked it. Took it out, let it cool. Added Missing Link. Scooped it with a measuring scoop into portions in plastic baggies and froze. Super easy and it was ONE pan to wash. Easy Peasy. Dr. Dodds will give you a consultation over the phone and help you decide what to feed. Now for me it wasn't a ton of work, but still more effort than I wanted to put in as I have health problems that make me tire very quickly. so I went back to a grain free kibble (California Natural Venison and Green Lentil) and Misha does great.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well yes, I suppose cooking a limited ingredient or simpler meal for one little dog wouldn't take as long as cooking for multiple dogs or a 90 lb dog with liver disease that need a kazillion supplements added and an extensive ingredient list. I remember sitting at the table opening up capsules that needed opening and I had about 20 bottles of liquid, powdered, pill form supplements...vitamins, minerals etc lined up while I mixed and measured what the nutritionist had laid out in her diet plan. There was bone meal, pro biotics, L Carnitine, L Arganine, all kinds of minerals and vitamins. There was trout, (that my son caught) turkey, ground beef, tapioca, about 3 or 4 different vegetables and more that I can't even think of. And everything needed to be weighed or measured. So, it took me several hours every Saturday to make a week's worth of meals for my sick Doberman and to wash pots, pans, baking dishes, mixing bowls etc. I simply find putting some raw food from the freezer bag into the dog's dish easier. That's all.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Here's a link to the study. But you have to pay to read the whole thing.

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Well, it's one of those things that will likely be a controversy for a long time. I sure was sitting on the fence for a long time as to weather to feed vegetables or not. Grain was never a consideration for quite some time for me. I went back and forth for a long time as I was researching and read many things on both sides of the coin and finally, at least for the time being, am satisfied that while they _can_ digest some carbs, they don't need them and they may cause some unhealthy side effects to some dogs because I believe that intrinsically, they aren't meant to eat a significant amount of plant matter. Mine are doing fantastically on their PMR diet so for now, as are many dogs that I hear reports of, so I think keep doing what I'm doing. And as everyone must decide for their own circumstance what they feel is best as well. And I think that cooked, raw, vegetables or no vegetables, grain or no grain, anything made from fresh, whole ingredients beats hands down, commercial food as long as it's balanced right.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I haven't gotten tripe straight out of the cow...no. But I order it from Hare Today, Gone Tomorrow and it's been cut into large chunks and vacuum packed and frozen. Otherwise it's the same as what comes out of the cow...there's the green wrinkly stuff, a little stomach contents, but mostly the whiteish, firm stuff and then it comes with a little spleen attached since that's an adjacent organ. So, that is nice to get some additional organ too. It is_ most_ odoriferous. But once I clean up, including washing the little baggie it was in with hot, soapy water, there is no lingering smell in my house. This raw green tripe is a miracle food. It's just amazing and I feed a few small chunks every day. It's something I order regularly. No need for commercial, expensive digestive enzymes or probiotics. Tripe is LOADED with those things, naturally. And the calcium-phosphorus ratio is perfect. I'm sure you know this Oshagcj but for those who don't, I just love talking about tripe. lol. :hungry:
> 
> Is Blue Ridge cooked or in a can? What's it like?


Blue Ridge Beef is just a line of ground raw products. They have several proteins, including tripe. I generally use the quail occasionally because I can't get whole quail at that price, plus the Breeder's Choice beef because it's the cheapest beef I can get (except heart) but it has a good amount of fat. I only use the venison when I don't get a deer myself, but it's about $2/lb, so I don't use it often. I actually don't use tripe that much, I don't think it lives up to the hype. Most of those enzymes are worth more to an herbivore for digesting plant matter and not a carnivore to digest meat, plus they're mostly degraded in processing and freezing, so unless you're getting it straight from the ruminant, it's not worth it IMO. The ca/phos ratio is good, but unless I can get it cheap or free, I don't feed much of it. I feed a good variety of proteins and ample fat, and my dog and cats are thriving.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

peppersb said:


> Here's a link to the study. But you have to pay to read the whole thing.
> 
> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7441/full/nature11837.html


Oh darn, to need to pay to read something I will likely not understand much of ..... I read the footnotes and didn't understand much of them. The small part I was able to read referred to starch only rather than a specific one. From the footnotes though it didn't look like it would address what I am interested in which would be the comparisons. 

Maybe someone else would understand it better. Thanks for looking for and finding the actual study results.


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