# Straight talk needed on aggression



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi all,

Seeing the straight talk given to Purley in the other thread on house breaking I'd like to bring up Fozzie's issues again....

As most of you know he's a resource guarder. There's a long thread on it here for those who want the detail. (http://www.poodleforum.com/23-general-training-obedience/8744-fozzie-resource-guarder.html) The good news is that we're doing MUCH better in this regard. MOST times, I'd say 80% or more on average, Fozzie will give up the item he has, and of those about 80% of the time just by my going and standing next to him and waiting. the rest of the times I ask "Can I have that?" as we trained and he jumps back excitedly waiting for a treat. :angel: He will never be 100% and when it comes to food items, forget it. We'll have to manage that for the rest of his life, and if he finds something dangerous I'm going to have to deal with being bitten. 

Now, we've noticed a few new issues cropping up recently: 

Issue #1: collar sensitivity. Infrequently and in no seeming consistent way, Fozzie will growl and bite when we leash him up. This isn't about "I don't want to stop playing"--he gets many hours of exercise every day either with us or in dog day care. He will do this sometimes when coming in from the dog run with my partner, or even with me, when being leashed to go out. I've done the "cookie" treatment when leashing but last weekend, in the middle of eating the cookie, he bit me while leashing him up. I have started moving more slowly in the leash up process, letting him sniff the clip, waiting for him to bow his head or relax and not just "reaching in" to clip him up. and of course treats. 

Issue #2: Being picked up. Fozzie has ordinarily LOVED being picked up. He would settle into my arms quietly--heck the first time I met him, he fell asleep in my arms while being held at the breeders! lately, though, when I go to pick him up, he gets really nervous, and has nipped and bitten me. This is also, inconsistent and infrequent. I had a theory that he was getting sensitive because I was picking him up each night to treat his eyes and brush his teeth. I have stopped doing that and giving the treatments on the floor. He loves the teeth brushing (yay) and clearly doesn't like the eye treatments. but we get them done on the floor. I now can pick him up again--but I watch gingerly each time, and reward with treats. Context seems to be the most important thing. 

Straight talk folks: I've got a dog with problems don't I? I'm not giving up on him, but there does seem to be a pattern here, which leads me to believe there's a behavioral/psych issue going on. Is there a pattern you see that could help me to manage him better?


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## Purley (May 21, 2010)

The only input I can have into the subject is that I had Mickey, my Shih-tzu that I had to have put to sleep last year because of congestive heart failure. He too had aggression issues with "things". If he found a piece of paper on the floor, it was his and he put his foot on it and he would growl and snarl at anyone trying to get it. I never did get him to stop completely. I would often get hold of his collar if it was something dangerous and he didn't actually have the thing in his mouth. Then I would grab whatever it was. I used bribery too. I would offer him a treat in exchange for the thing he was obsessing over. I also used a Cesar Milan tool of pushing him with something. I would use the little indoor broom to move him out of the way so I could remove whatever he had without getting bitten. 

I know that most people on here do not believe in "corrections". However, I tend to sort of disagree. I like to reward, but I also think that neither dogs nor children would grow up as rounded individuals if all they got was rewards for good behaviour and their bad behaviour was completely ignored because it might hurt their psyche or something. I am not talking about violence - either in kids or dogs. I am just saying that unwanted behaviour in my opinion sometimes requires a kick up the proverbial backside.

I have a story for you. My groomer friend has step over dog gates. Some time ago she was watching a friend's Bolognaise when she discovered the dog was jumping over her step over gate. Because she lives on a very busy main street, she had to find a way to keep the dog behind the gate because she was afraid she would open the door one day and the dog would bolt out and get run over. A couple of days later, her son found the dog on the other side of the gate. She told her son to put the dog down. She took her shoe off and she kicked that dog's backside down the hall and back onto the kitchen side of the gate. A short while later she came home to find she had not latched the step over gate properly and most of her dogs were racing around the house where they were not usually allowed. All except the one dog whose backside she kicked. He was sitting in the kitchen with the gate wide open. She said he was thinking "I ain't going back the other side of that gate again in my life!"


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## ziggylu (Jun 26, 2010)

I don't claim to be any kind of expert and as it is I'm trying to sort through my own pup's needs in terms of training...

I can offer that I know Cosmo has always been anxious about restraint - both being held and on leash. We've worked really hard on this since he first came home and fortunately neither is really much of an issue anymore...though I did move to a harness in December to try and relax him on leash. It's helped a great deal actually and I'm hopeful we can move back to leashing on a buckle collar in the not so distant future as I really hate the harness and find it a to be a pain to use. We're still workign on dog reactivity on leash though so aren't there yet(though making a lot of progress recently)

Anyway...I'm wondering if the two issues you bring up here aren't somehow related in a similar way. It's not necessarily about being held or being leashed separately but about being resistant to restraint in both cases? Since he's already learned to use his mouth defensively that ends up being his M.O. in defensive reaction to anxiety about being restrained?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

First, congratulations on the huge progress you have made. I know it must seem to be taking forever, but you really have come a long way, and it can only have been through a lot of hard, persevering work, which must often have seemed to be getting nowhere. 

I also wonder if the leashing and picking up are related, but perhaps because they are causing him pain in some way. Sudden snappiness is often a sign of pain - I would want to get him very thoroughly checked over before assuming it is behavioural rather than physical. I had a cat once that went from friendly and snuggly to scratching everyone who stroked her - and realised she had a very sore patch on her back.

I have also taught mine a signal for "I am about to pick you up", which gives them some warning, and unless it is an emergency, I ask before lifting them. Sophy actually shifts her legs to make it easier, and gives a little hop. It must be very disconcerting for a small dog to be suddenly swept high in the air and restrained - I feel the least I can do is warn them it is about to happen!


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Well this probably isn't helpful at all, but have you looked at any chihuahua boards? Especially with the resource guarding background, the behavior you're describing is every chihuahua I've ever known. They start with resource guarding, and as you try to train them away from that, they seem to begin to comprehend that if they are restrained in any way, they can't guard their resources. And then they start getting paranoid and start barking more and biting. A friend of my parents had an army of chis and that's what he thought. But Mr Lee wasn't exactly an expert on dogs, and neither am I.

I hope you'll be able to beat this soon. It's all reactive, predictable behavior right? Not saying that makes it easy to fix, but it does give you some traction in dealing with it maybe. Hopefully it's just a matter of finding a good behaviorist who's dealt with this before. This being Cali, and chihuahua heavy, I would think you would be able to find someone like that.

Maybe I'm just too harsh on chihuahuas. But our toys used to look at those chis bark themselves unconscious (literally - bark til they pass out) and then look back to us like "wtf?"


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## Stargazerpoodles (Dec 27, 2010)

Since you are "treating" his eyes, I would hazard to guess that he may be losing his eye sight. I have seen smaller dogs, who have lost their sight are startled, say when you reach down to pick them up, or reach for the back of their neck, perhaps where you are clipping on the leash. Just a thought.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Stargazerpoodles said:


> Since you are "treating" his eyes, I would hazard to guess that he may be losing his eye sight. I have seen smaller dogs, who have lost their sight are startled, say when you reach down to pick them up, or reach for the back of their neck, perhaps where you are clipping on the leash. Just a thought.


That's a good point to call out--but just a quick response. He's been checked out by a veterinary opthamologist twice for the discharge in his eyes. While he does have ectopic cilias, they appear to not be the problem. He just has a lot of goop--and the vet's thinking is that it's allergies. So, he gets drops for it every day, preceded by a wash of the eyes with sterile saline solution.

Also, to *FJM*--thanks for the kind words you've had for me all through this drama. I'm fairly certain there isn't a pain issue--the aggression seems to be very inconsistent and situation specific. I think *ziggylu* may be onto something about restraint. I bought a harness awhile back--he chewed through the first one--then I got another but hadn't tried it yet-- it may be a good time to try that for a bit. 

Looking forward to hearing what others have to say.


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## ziggylu (Jun 26, 2010)

Does he have any ear issues(thinking about the allergies?)

I don't know if there's patterns to Fozzie's behavior...but we've learned over the months that Cosmo becomes more anxious when there is something physical going on with him. For him it's been mouth and ears. He was having recurring ear infections but that's better since I took him off grain and chicken...but we were starting to realize that his anxieties levels went up when he was having issues. Same with the mouth issues...and we'd made some real progress with him since getting that all sorted out finally in January. Or so we thought...his incline plate got put back on last Thursday and sure enough he's been more reactive and started more shadow chasing since. Fortunately to a lesser degree and we're equipped to work through it now since we know the pattern. 

Has his thryoid been tested?

Edited after seeing your reply above:

I can't remember if you tried the Easy Walk harness? That's the one we've been using. I like that it leashes in the front and not in the back so doesn't encourage pulling. A halti/gentle leader was out of the question for Cosmo due to all the mouth issues(even the Ttouch calming bands totally freaked him out when I tried that) so I decided to go this way when we wanted to try to move the pressure off his neck. We saw really quick improvement in his relaxation on leash(we were using a prong before the harness).


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

ziggylu said:


> Does he have any ear issues(thinking about the allergies?)
> 
> Has his thryoid been tested?


His ears are in great shape. He had a lot of hair as a pup and when he was neutered and under GA I had it ALL pulled. So now when he goes to the groomer every 3-6 weeks, she does all the plucking. He was just at the vet a few weeks ago for his 3 year rabies shot and got a clean bill of health. 

He is on a raw diet by primal, but has been on that since before the issues started. 

I will tell you this--last week I started him eating 1 raw chicken thigh 3x per week to work on plaque in addition to daily tooth brushing and using the tooth gel in the morning. I know it's not borne out by experience by other raw feeders, but I wonder if it makes him more edgy. (the reason I think this: I know the marrow bones, when I gave him one in his crate, made him literally go cujo-red-zone-wild-crazy-snarling-lunging-barking nuts. So he gets none of those anymore.)


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Have you trialed him on any medications yet? I seriously would.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Have you trialed him on any medications yet? I seriously would.


Could you elaborate a bit more? thanks in advance.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

FozziesMom said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Seeing the straight talk given to Purley in the other thread on house breaking I'd like to bring up Fozzie's issues again....
> 
> ...


Hello FozziesMom,

I'm not a trainer, and I am not very experienced with Poodles or smaller dogs, but I do have some experience with aggressive dogs (as some Weimaraners are quite "sharp"). My impression is that Fozzie knows he can get away with this behavior, and has.

I can't say this would work, or that you can manage to do it, but as a _last resort_, it may be worth a try. This method applies only if you have ruled out any possibility of a physical ailment making Fozzie respond in the ways you have described, as fjm suggested. (For, if he has something that is causing him pain, then it's quite a different matter.) 

If Fozzie were mine, every time he even indicated aggressiveness toward me, I would firmly grab his collar with one hand and hold his muzzle _firmly_ shut with the other (your right hand, if you are right-handed). I would continue to hold it shut until Fozzie submits and relaxes (if he will). Do not hurt him, but do not give in to any cries he makes either. Stay calm & quiet, but let him know that you are not going to accept his aggressive behavior. I would _not_ reward him when he relaxes (if he does), but I would let him know it's all OK as long as he behaves. (No shaming, or loud talk; when it's over, it's over.)

I would be aggressive, making sure he is corrected _every time_ (starting with the more recent behaviors and avoiding any confrontation over resources until the others are resolved.) 

If this works for the more recent, non-resource related behaviors, I would not stop with those, but, if possible, progress to eliminating the resource guarding issue as well. (You have acquiesced here, "He will never be 100% ...", and Fozzie knows it.) You need to impress on him that you are absolutely intolerant of his aggressive behavior. It's hard, because he has succeeded in getting away with this.

I guess I should add that you probably should not try this method if you think you will be bitten. (I became accustomed to dealing with some very powerful dogs everyday, and I was alot stronger and faster then too.) And, if Fozzie does not give up, then I suspect this method will not work with him. It is a very direct way of letting the dog know that this behavior is offensive to you, and _not acceptable, ever_.

Fozzie doesn't know his life may be on the line -- you do; he needs some "tough love", imo.

*_____________________*


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Hmmmm... I don't know nu2poodles... just knowing Fozzie's background and having a sense of Fozzie's mom (obviously we have never met), I don't think such a method would be advisable. Of course, I am not a dog trainer either, but I could just see that going badly in this situation. 

It certainly does seem as though Fozzie believes he's the boss... Fozzie's Mom, have you talked to your trainer about the latest developments?


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

thanks all, some more great info. I have not talked to my trainer about it. What I do right now is say "NO!" or "ENOUGH" in a firm, loud voice. When I do that, he stops usually mid-bite, and turns around twice, looking a bit confused and uncertain. I then ask him to sit, which he usually does. and then I say "come" and call him to me, where he usually looks pitiful and sad and licks my hand. 

I will say that I doubt I could grab his muzzle fast enough. He's really quick to snap sometimes, and when he does, it's painful and he's so red zone it's scary to me. I have to work hard to stay calm and not show him my fear and say NO while he's biting.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Im talking about adding a medication to help his behavior along with training modification. There are several newer drugs available that help alot of dogs. They arnt just sedatives. I am not very UTD on the medications themselved, but Ive heard alot of praise on them. 

We have a mini poodle client that goes to a veterinary behaviorist. The VB put the dog on a medication, and along with training has helped alot. The dog was a rescue, and is pretty much literally insane. They would of put her to sleep a few years ago if it wasnt for this vet.

Living in SF, im sure you have access to some of the best VB. Not just a trainer, but an actual vet that can prescribe a drug for him. That is absolutely the route I would go! 

I really give you alot of credit with dealing with Fozzie and his issues. I would not.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

bigpoodleperson said:


> Living in SF, im sure you have access to some of the best VB. Not just a trainer, but an actual vet that can prescribe a drug for him. That is absolutely the route I would go!
> 
> I really give you alot of credit with dealing with Fozzie and his issues. I would not.


I have made an appointment for a VB that is not far from work. It's a 2 hour consult. This is a good idea. 

I don't have young children or other pets who are in danger from him. As much as his bites HURT, they do not endanger our lives or anyone elses since we leash him whenever he is not in an "off leash" area or our home. I am fortunate to have the means to try each of these things so I feel obligated to do all I can. I believe sometimes God gives us the dogs we need, not always the dogs we want.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Like BPP said, I am not sure if I could be as patient and loving as you are so for that, I respect you, FM! 

Let us know what the VB says. 

Have you looked at this http://www.sfvs.net/Services/Behavioral.html ?


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

schnauzerpoodle, that's where I'm going. they're around the corner from my office and Fozzie's day care. I've been there for other issues with them--they're great. Unfortunately the main canine aggression vet is out until June, so I'm up with the other one in early May. it's a 2 hour appt in the middle of the day but again I am blessed to have a flexible schedule and my office so close and can take Fozzie to work with me that day. 

it's a 12 Page questionaire I have to fill out, too. yeowch!


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> it's a 12 Page questionaire I have to fill out, too. yeowch!



HAVE FUN :aetsch:


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Thats wonderful!! They sound really thourough, and have great credentials! It is really wonderful that he landed in your arms instead of someone else (like you said, children, unwilling/able to help him)! Im really glad for that! I know its alot of work, but im really pleased by the questionaire! Shows they are really trying to dig into his issues. I really do feel this is the only way to go right now with him. You have put so much hard work into intensive training, and yet he is getting worse in some ways. Some dogs, just like some people need some help from perscription medications.


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## PoodleLicious (Nov 17, 2010)

I would seriously consider having his thyroid checked out.
how old is he and what age did you bring him home, did you bring him home straight from the breeders house?

My number one guess would be thyroid problems which tends to make dogs irritable
my number two guess would be pain (eyes) or blindness. (is he older?)
my number three guess is that he is a bit on the more dominant edgy side, and the very first time the resource guarding came up it wasnt handled as quickly and firmly as it should's have been. All it takes is gor you to back away a teeny bit (in shock) that is the reaction they want to see when they snarl or snap at you.

I would first rule out any medical at all, pain, mental, etc. and then try this,
put a slip lead on him at any time you think he may resort to threats keep it loose but be ready to hold it if he goes for you. If he guards something gently pull him away from it (with the leash) and take it away for good. (until he forgets about it) give it back later in the day when hes being sweet. Set him up like this a few times a day. Dont jerk him, and keep calm. Dont get your feelings hurt or take it personally this works much better when feelings arent being played and you are just calm.
same thing for if you are going to pick him up or leash him. Slip lead on. Go to pick him up be ready with the loose lead, if he goes for you in a quick movement just tighten the lead foreward (dont jerk him this is for the sole purpose of safety and head control. Reach for his backend where he cant bite ypu his head is firmly forward with the lead so he cant reach. That there sounds like bratty behavior (unless its medical which is why you want to be sure) he needs to know that just because he threatens does not mean he gets his way. You are going to pick him up either way and arent afraid of him anymore. When you are working with him think positively that he is going to react positivley.

Sounds like somewhere along the line you got scared and backed off that worked for one aspect of his life so now hes going to test it with everything else he doesnt like. Slip leads work great too because you can lasso it around an aggressing dog without getting in their personal space which makes them worse.

Im all about positive reinforcement, but you have to treat aggression cases differently. This is a non harmful way(for both parties) to confront this bratty side you are seeing


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## PoodleLicious (Nov 17, 2010)

I choose slip leads over muzzles because if you have the proper handling tenchiques they are just as unable to bite you. I have found with muzzles the dog basically just shuts down and gives in because they cant do anything about it, but really you need them to aggress to actually deal with the behavior in the first place. The other problem with muzzles is some dogs just freak out from them. They become frantic and aggressive toward the muzzle itself and thats just not solving the problem at all. Sometimes the less physical contact you have with a dog in an emotional state the better, well in most cases.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think the VB is exactly the right way to go - how useful to have a really good one so close. Frankly, I would be very, very wary of getting into any kind of confrontational training with him at this point. He has already escalated from a warning growl to a pre-emptive snap; forceful methods could see him deciding attack is the best form of defence and going into full "cujo" ever more easily. You know the desensitisation and counter conditioning works with him; you know you can do it (not many people have the patience and dedication you have shown), and you are in the process of getting a really detailed assessment and treatment plan from top-notch professionals. Not the moment to run any risks, IMO!


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## Feathersprings (Jul 15, 2010)

I see you are in San Francisco! would it be hard for you to work with a trainer in the East Bay??. I have a very good friend that is wonderful trainer and she is very knowledgable about the kind of issues you are having. if this is something you might consider check out her website.. I don't have link handy but it is "Braveheart Dog Training" in San Leandro. she also has a facebook page I think you would love her. dogs are her whole life (and her DH of course I know she works with a lot of dogs that have "issues"


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## neVar (Dec 25, 2009)

A few things i would be doing immediately 

1- i'd be trying a thunder shirt
2- i'd be trying perscription anti anxiety meds. TO me he sounds anxious and worried. maybe not all the time but he is. 
3- have you looked into the control unleashed programs? VERY VERY good. 

Use food to create good feeligns when doing things he's now stressed over. IF he's stressing over being picked up- i'd be shoving hotdogs down his throat  A really easy way to do this is to get a little container- and smear Peanut butter around the sides- and keep it refridgerated. So if you know your going to do X which he's now resistant about- use one hand to hold that container on his nose so he can lick PB while doing the thing that worries him (IE picking him up)


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Good idea, the consult with the veterinary behaviourist.

Like others have said, I would run from any aggressive training tactics. There is a pretty clear link now between aggressive, punishment training and INCREASED aggression in dogs, so for a dog who has already developed a way of communicating that involves his teeth, it would be asking for trouble.

I think he is lucky to have you for an owner.

If it helps, he isn't consciously being "aggressive" ... he's communicating.

He just needs to learn that his "go to" communication method needs to be gentler. You might be able to help with that by acknowledging his concerns when he growls ... not giving in, but at least letting him know you hear him. Even just slowing down in whatever you are doing might help him feel he's being listened to. 

It sounds like his objections are at least partly justified. Vasco hates being picked up, so if I need to, I give him lots of warning. I taught him to put his chin in my hand (thanks to Kikopup), which puts my hand in just the right place to hook a finger in his collar to attach the leash. Some dogs are frightened by a hand coming at them from above. 

Keep working on him! He's a great dog, with a great owner, and it WILL pay off!


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## janeway49 (Jan 25, 2014)

i live in roanoke , va.................64 disabled with my fam.................my little grandaughter really loves him 7 , . , he is our dog.............i am so disapointed he did not get better after 1 yr..................tissue issue not enough................people crumbs foraging not enough..................took care of it ..................this is scary............ have 1 yr baby............got them together!...........never hurt baby but growls and nips 7 yr old ...................what next?


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Janeaway49 - I think you need to start a new thread, explaining the problems that you are having in more detail. If your dog is resource guarding you will find lots of good information on the thread linked to the first post here, including how essential it is to manage the dog's world to avoid opportunities for guarding, to avoid challenging and confronting him, and to protect children and other vulnerable humans. The best thing would be to find a fully qualified behaviourist (look for post graduate degree level training and experience, not a self styled Whisperer or similar) who can work with you, your dog and your family to identify the issues and improve behaviour.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I agree with fjm, read this thread, but start another one.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Fozziesmom, I can totally empathize with you on your dog's issues. We've had our rescue, Sunny, "with issues" for over a year now, and it seems that it's always one step forward, 2-3 steps backwards. Sunny is on Fluoxetine, a generic for Prozac. The rescue I adopted him from put him on this after he became a severe fear biter. It was either this or put him down. He now no longer bites unless you "push his buttons". We know we cannot grab his front legs or the back of his collar, no matter how gently. The abuser in his past must have done this, because it absolutely sends him over the edge.

I agree with previous posters to not let your dog control every situation. When we first got Sunny, he tried to bite me when I groomed him. I got a soft muzzle and used it for the next couple of grooms. On the third groom, I set the muzzle on the table, just in case. Sunny reared back like he was going to bite, but I pointed my finger at him, and in a very stern voice, told him he'd better rethink that, or he'd be very sorry. I could literally see the little wheels turning in his head, then he slowly backed down. Praise followed, of course. I had to do this a few more times, and I even had to muzzle him one more time, then after that, he decided to behave, thank God! He's been fine ever since, although he has taken flight off the table a couple of times, scaring me to death!

Sunny's still extremely skittish around people. He's better around my husband than he is me - oh well. He's now sometimes willing to take a high value treat (a dab of coconut oil is a favorite - lol!) off my finger, as long as I hold statue still and let him approach me, not looking at him (and it's his idea). He's also still afraid to walk through doorways, which is a pain when we're trying to get him to come inside, especially when it's cold outside! He's not treat motivated, so sometimes, I'll just close the door and try again later. He's learning that I won't wait forever. In the cold weather, he's coming 'round a little quicker - lol!

He's learning to play outside with our other small dog, Maddie, which is wonderful! He still doesn't play normally IMO, but for him to interact with her at all is a huge step. He loves to chase her out into the yard, barking his tiny little bark - so cute! 

However...since we adopted our boxer, a laid back senior neutered male this past summer, Sunny has started marking ALL over the house (yes, Sunny's neutered). :argh: He now wears a belly band with a maxi-pad in it 24/7, because he's getting worse instead of better. He wets 3-4 pads per day, even though he's allowed outside to potty multiple times per day. I don't see this situation improving anytime soon. Very frustrating...

Fozziesmom, don't be too hard on yourself. These fragile dogs can wear on your last nerve, I know. Just last week, I discussed with my husband on whether we should put Sunny down, because he never seems happy and he's always stressed. DH talked me out of it - for now...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

This is an old thread - which is why I suggest Janeaway49 starts a fresh one.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

interesting that janeway's dog is also named fozzi..

yes, janeway, do see a behaviorist, but try to make sure it's a veterinary behaviorist. as a licensed vet, a vet behaviorist can check to make sure there is no physical ailment involved and is also able to prescribe medication. dogs with serious behavioral issues should be checked for physical ailments first, the same as humans. wishing you and your family the best of luck on this.


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Just saw this, and that it was an old thread, but I would suggest taking the dog to a doggie chiropractor. His neck, back or something could be out of alignment, hence pain when being picked up and with collar. Yes, they do get out of whack just like humans.


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