# Question about poodle ancestory



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Hi, Good morning.

I am curious if there is any documentation of what breeds actually went in to create the poodle? Many google searches brought up nothing

Thanks!


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Poodle History Project

and there ya go so not really, warning a lot of the external links don't work but you can still look up stuff with the info given , the inter website links work and was one of my favorite website to peruse back in the day


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

A gazelle and a cuddlehound?


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

Dianaleez said:


> A gazelle and a cuddlehound?


LOL, probably!

I was on Facebook last night, and somebody asked if dobermanns where used to create poodles.. and it got me thinking.. what did go into creating poodles?


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

The Doberman originated in the late 1800's; poodles were described much earlier.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Poodles are a _much _older breed than the Doberman Pinscher.


----------



## Ava. (Oct 21, 2020)

TeamHellhound said:


> Poodles are a _much _older breed than the Doberman Pinscher.


Well I'm not sure, thats why I am asking.

the link above, I don't understand it all.. I cant find where it tells me what breeds went into the poodle


----------



## Tessa's Dad (Jul 20, 2011)

Ava. said:


> Well I'm not sure, thats why I am asking.
> 
> the link above, I don't understand it all.. I cant find where it tells me what breeds went into the poodle


I've done some relatively extensive research on Poodles, specifically Parti-Poodles, because of a 'battle' I got into with the Canadian Kennel Club. 

I'll admit to being a 'rogue' here and expect I'll get some brickbats from other breeders for this but, my research was to prove how far back Parti-Poodles go, historically. 
This in turn however, confirms at least how far back Poodles go. (Regardless of coat colours.)

There are early woodcuts (used for printing images) and artwork from the early 1600's depicting poodles. Eg: 















Others might be a bit later but still that era. Eg:









One of the more famous is a self-portrait of Rembrandt with his poodle, dated 1643. (A tri-colour no less.)









This suggests that the poodle goes back at least that far. 
But that doesn't really answer your question. 

Finding out what breeds originally went into the poodle, won't be so easy. You've got your work cut out for you.
There are lots of older breeds than poodles but for the most part they look nothing like poodles.
The Basenji is arguably the oldest "pure" breed in the world, pegged at going back to 6000 BC. 
And has a short smooth coat. Nothing like a poodle.

Curly coated retrievers and Barbets seem to have similar "historic age" to poodles. 
But there's no breeding data to confirm/suggest a connection to poodles. 
It "only" takes 7 generations to establish a new breed that breeds true. 
In the grand scheme of things, that's not really a long time. 
One of my dogs, Knight, was born in 2010. Five generations only takes you back to the mid-1980's. 
Seven generations won't go back much further than maybe 1970.
Therefore, there's no way you can determine what breeds went into a dog with DNA testing. 

Good luck figuring it out.


----------



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Well, when the original Poodles were being developed, breeds as we know them weren't even a thing. Instead, you had types of dogs. "This type" of dogs herded livestock. "This type" of dog went to earth after vermin. "This type" of dogs worked with hunters to flush game birds. "This type" of dog retrieved shot birds. "This type" of dog hunted other types of game by scent. "This type" of dog hunted game by sight. Eventually, people started breeding dog for not only a purpose, but for a specific look. Modern thinking on "breeds" really started during the mid to late 1800s, so it's a very recent development.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Snap! TeamHellhound beat me to it. I think the reason you are having trouble is that poodles originated before the idea of _breed_ became fully applicable. _Type _is probably a more accurate description of what people worked with. 

Check out some of Ray and Lorna Coppinger's books about their research into the origins of different "breeds" of livestock guardian dogs and pariah dogs. It's really interesting what goes on outside the FCI/AKC sphere of influence.


----------



## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

This thread in the link is my rambling notes where in some discussion is had one breeds used to make the Poodle. I've been researching colors & how they came to be. People say a lot of things to me about "well this color is new & you can't trust what you'll get" or a bit about another breed or line, that's all fine & well but it's stated as fact when it is actually opinion. I ran across a lot of possibilities for the creation of the Poodle in my searching. So maybe you'll find something there helpful. Mostly it was the water retrievers & herding/droving dogs available at the time.

Like others have said, because it is in fact such an old breed, it was developed before the notion of "breed" & "breed type" so it makes things interesting.

(722) My color notes (LONG) | Poodle Forum


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Some repetition here.

Unfortunately, there isn't a clear answer, at least not yet. No one was keeping records of dogs at this level, probably until the Victorian Era, which is generally considered the birth of modern dog breeding.


Updated study 2017
Genomic Analyses Reveal the Influence of Geographic Origin, Migration, and Hybridization on Modern Dog Breed Development: Cell Reports

Clicking on the images will allow enlargement. This study shows the genetic interrelatedness and sort of a who-beget-who.























From VGL UCDavis Miniature Poodle Genetic Diversity
MiniaturePoodle20191009.pdf (ucdavis.edu)

"I. Introduction A. Breed History The history of the Miniature Poodle is intimately tied up with the history of the Standard Poodle, which goes back six centuries or more. Although is might be presumed that the Standard Poodle came first, miniaturization of dogs has gone on for thousands of years and it is just as likely that various sizes of Poodles evolved during the same time according to human needs. Standard Poodles would be used as hunting and working dogs, while miniature and toy varieties were used primarily for companionship. The Standard Poodle breed probably originated as a water fowl retriever in Germany rather than France. The name “Poodle” is the same as the German “pudel”, which means refers to splashing in water (i.e., water retrieving). Others believe that the Poodle is a descendent of the French Barbet and has been proclaimed the national dog of France. Regardless of its origin, the Poodle rapidly became one of the most popular dogs in Continental Europe with paintings of dogs identical to Poodles originating in Germany as early as the 15th to 16th century. The Standard Poodle was the principal pet dog in Spain in the 18th century and Toy Poodles were found in many royal households in France during the same period. The poodle has been bred in several sizes. Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles are recognized by the American Kennel Club. The British Kennel Club also recognizes three sizes, with the miniature and toy being merely smaller versions of the standard. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) recognizes the three sizes but adds in the medium Poodle. The fact that the various sizes of Poodles are viewed as varieties and not breeds, crosses between the various sizes is allowed. _However, genetic testing of Miniature Poodles from North America showed them to be a distinct breed compared to Standard Poodles." **

** This is why using Miniatures as a control to help clear Standards of autoimmune diseases isn't viable._

Miniature_Poodle_genetic_comparison_May-23-2012.pdf (ucdavis.edu)
_"Miniature and Standard Poodles are much more genetically different than has been commonly assumed and are in fact distinct breeds that are as distant from each other as many other random breed pairings. These findings have both positive and negative meanings. Miniature Poodles are genetically distinct from Standard Poodles and their use as controls for SA affected Standard Poodles in genome wide association studies (GWAS) is not possible, or at the least must be done with great caution."_

VGL Toy Poodle Genetic Diversity
ToyPoodle20191010.pdf (ucdavis.edu)

"I. Introduction A. Breed history The history of the Toy Poodle is intimately tied up with that of the Standard Poodles. Although it is logical to assume that Standard Poodles came first, miniaturization of dogs has gone on for thousands of years and it is just as likely that various sizes of Poodles evolved in the same time according to different human needs. Standard Poodles would be used as hunting and working dogs, while Miniature and Toy varieties were used primarily for companionship. The Standard Poodle is thought to have originated as a water fowl retriever in Germany rather than France where it is proclaimed the national dog. The name “Poodle” is the same as the German “pudel”, which refers to splashing in water (e.g., water retrieving). Others believe that the Poodle is a descendent of the French Barbet. Regardless of its origin, the Poodle rapidly became one of the most popular dogs in Continental Europe with paintings of dogs identical to Poodles originating in Germany as early as the 15th to 16th century. Small dogs that look like Toy Poodles have been depicted in art going back to the first century.1 The Standard Poodle was the principal pet dog in Spain in the 18th century and small Poodles were found in many royal households in France during this time. The Poodle has been bred in several sizes and Standard, Miniature, and Toy Poodles are recognized by the American Kennel Club. The British Kennel Club also recognizes three sizes. The Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) recognizes the three sizes variants but adds in the medium Poodle. The different sizes are not considered breeds, but rather varieties with the miniature and toy being merely smaller versions of the standard. Crosses between various sizes are allowed and offspring registered based on height at the withers. However, the trend is to select parents within the same size range more like breeds. The Standard Poodle sets the size for the three (or four) different varieties of Poodles.

Poodle History Project (Internet Archive)
Poodle History Project (archive.org)

Poodle History Project
The goal of this project is to illuminate the tasks which the Poodle (and his cousins) were "bred to do". Any breed's job description defines good temperament, which is always breed-specific. Since form follows function, good breed-specific conformation makes the designated tasks easier to perform. For a development of this thesis, see: Dorothy Macdonald, _Poodles: past, present & future_, Poodle Club of America Foundation Seminar, 1997, videotape available for purchase from PCA.
A comprehensive history of the Poodle does not exist. Neither does this exist for the several other varieties of European water spaniel, although evidence in art history indicates that these were a familiar sight as early as the High Middle Ages. Prior to ca 1870 our knowledge is sketchy, excepting certain brilliant examples. Meanwhile, we make do with a series of fascinating sources, which are presented here as an annotated bibliography in quasi-essay format, organized by function. We welcome receipt of additional sources.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Ava. said:


> Well I'm not sure, thats why I am asking.
> 
> the link above, I don't understand it all.. I cant find where it tells me what breeds went into the poodle


It doesn't, All I have understood is all it does state that poodles have been around for awhile, depending on what you read as Rose n' Poos has nicely shown there are some theories of where they came from


----------



## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

TeamHellhound said:


> Well, when the original Poodles were being developed, breeds as we know them weren't even a thing. Instead, you had types of dogs. "This type" of dogs herded livestock. "This type" of dog went to earth after vermin. "This type" of dogs worked with hunters to flush game birds. "This type" of dog retrieved shot birds. "This type" of dog hunted other types of game by scent. "This type" of dog hunted game by sight. Eventually, people started breeding dog for not only a purpose, but for a specific look. Modern thinking on "breeds" really started during the mid to late 1800s, so it's a very recent development.





cowpony said:


> Snap! TeamHellhound beat me to it. I think the reason you are having trouble is that poodles originated before the idea of _breed_ became fully applicable. _Type _is probably a more accurate description of what people worked with.
> 
> Check out some of Ray and Lorna Coppinger's books about their research into the origins of different "breeds" of livestock guardian dogs and pariah dogs. It's really interesting what goes on outside the FCI/AKC sphere of influence.


This is what I'm talking about! History of categories/epistemology meets dog nerdery. "Breeds" are a modern construction both materially (the physical dogs and the practices of breeding them) and socially (how we understand them as such). Poodle as a word and category are older than the modern category of 'breed', so it seems tricky to determine when/whether poodle referred to some kind of generic water dog (with a bit of a regional/national flavor sprinkled in, as different countries and regions seemed to have their own kinds of water dogs) and when it became/referenced the animal that today resembles a poodle.

I would bet that the poodle and doberman have ancestors in common, because they both have German history. I think a lot of dogs were quite multipurpose, but the question might be how far back, and how to know, since I assume we don't have many DNA samples from dogs hundreds of years ago so, in terms of DNA we can only infer from comparing sequencing of contemporary dogs. I also think the versatile grooming possibilities of the poodle and other water dogs made it harder to tell when you're working with the historical documents, because you can't as easily compare the structure of the dogs in these historical hunting illustrations, not to mention that many of these images weren't made for the purpose of documenting dog types (though some were), and the profile for pretty much all breeds looks different today than it did in these historical illustrations.

Anyway thanks for indulging my art history/history and philosophy of science inspired tangent!


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

I had an interesting debate with my scent hound obsessed sister about which breed was older, the beagle or the poodle. 

The conclusion of that debate is its impossible to say. Both breeds are so old that the historical records cant give a definitive answer. 

A lot of the European fluffy breeds are MUCH older than people realise. The Maltese predates the Doberman and the Rottweiler. 

I think a lot of people think of the working breeds like the Rotties and the GSD as the origin dogs and the 'frou frou breeds' as modern creations (or even manipulations) for modern needs. But thats really not true at all. 

The poodle wasnt 'forged' or 'developed' like the doberman. Rather the breed evolved alongside Europe, changing and diversifying in size as the needs of Europeans changed. From being a hunting dog, to truffle finders, favourites of the french elite, circus performers and then a status symbol for the middle class. 

Whatever societal change happened in Europe, especially in France - Germany, the poodle always found a place next to us.


----------

