# Advice please re. breeder's approach



## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

Large breed ing program and no difference in temperament would be huge red flags for me.

Sounds like you are unsure. Dont blame you.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

Negative reviews (more than 2) should be a huge red flag. Temperaments does vary from puppy to puppy so what they are saying is a sales pitch, of course this puppy wool be just like the one you love; please take one of the one we have and have not sold. If they spent time with the puppies they have for sale, they should be able to tell you the difference between them and steer you to the puppy that will match your needs best. My recommendation is move on and go with a breeder that is more upfront and honest. The breeder should have CHIC number on the sires and dams for their litters. They should have a manageable number of litters so they know the puppies in each litter and have spent time socializing each litter.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

It sounds like your friend may have gotten lucky with their puppy.

Generally speaking, I would steer clear of anyone with such a large breeding operation that they have puppies available on-demand and extensive online reviews. I want a puppy who was raised underfoot in the home, from parents who are beloved pets.

In what conditions are these puppies being raised? What are the terrible reviews? Do they repeat the same concerns?


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> It sounds like your friend may have gotten lucky with their puppy.
> 
> Generally speaking, I would steer clear of anyone with such a large breeding operation that they have puppies available on-demand and extensive online reviews. I want a puppy who was raised underfoot in the home, from parents who are beloved pets.
> 
> In what conditions are these puppies being raised? What are the terrible reviews? Do they repeat the same concerns?


Thanks so much for all your advice! To be fair to the breeder the puppies are only five weeks old - so might be too early to get an idea of temperaments? Some of the reviews showed concerns about the condition of the whelping dogs, and the attention to the health of the puppies, others about how the exchange with the breeder felt transactional. But this breeder also supplies dogs to become therapy and service dogs so I feel their temperaments must be great and that’s important to me. The sire and dam of this litter are wonderful looking. Decisions, decisions.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

NikNak said:


> But this breeder also supplies dogs to become therapy and service dogs so I feel their temperaments must be great and that’s important to me.


I don’t know the breeder you’re considering, but I’ve seen this used as a marketing gimmick by plenty of unethical breeders.

If there are any concerns about the health and well-being of the breeding dogs or puppies, I wouldn’t be giving this breeder a second thought. I would already have walked away.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You may have seen this already but jic:

I'll add some resources for you.
These are tips on researching and selecting quality, conscientious breeders. It can be helpful as a reminder even if you've recently gone thru this and especially if this is new to you or has been some years. Things have changed.

You can also read information directly from one of our members who is a very well-respected breeder here.

A quality breeder isn't location dependent. Their characteristics are the same everywhere.


*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.*
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions but are flawless to us .
Outside of covid, these breeders will almost always welcome, even encourage, home visits to see the puppies and dam in person and see how they live.

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom-line difference is between those who are breeding primarily for profit and those who are breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breeding's are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance.*
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pup's life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Doing the PCA recommended health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle (just in case you expand your choices)

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?
For example, some breeders require that a specific food be bought and fed, often thru them, or the health warranty is curtailed or voided entirely.

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. *Most poodle colors fade.

Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience". A breeder using marketing terms like teacup, royal, giant don't really know poodles in relation to the breed standard. Pricing differently for size or color is also marketing.

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*When looking at online sites, it's not just what you see, it's often what you don't see that's most important.*
Is the dam (and sire) also listed on the site, with full registry name and OFA testing?

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also, and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.

-----

A note on "Champion bloodlines" or variations of...

The phrase "Championship _lines_" is nearly meaningless unless, as Phaz23 points out, the dam and sire are the champions, and their dams and sires...

"Championship" counts in the conformation ring, to prove that each generation is meeting the breed standard. It's not a given, an inherent trait that gets passed down.

----

A quality conscientious breeder doesn't have to be a PCA member to follow the Code of Ethics. I believe that every breeder should.
Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Hard pass. There are plenty of breeders out there who have great reputations, do things more ethically, and are smaller scale. I agree that it sounds like your friend just got lucky!


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## Pytheis (Sep 17, 2019)

NikNak said:


> Hello,
> 
> My friend has a beautiful white 18 month spoo who I have spent a lot of time with. She's a wonderful dog in terms of confirmation and temperament. I have spoken to the breeder - if I could clone this dog I would! However I feel worried about the breeder. They have mixed reviews online. When I spoke to them, they had a number of puppies immediately available for me. *They said there was no variance in temperament* and whichever one I went for would be great. They have a large breeding program and the reviews online are a mix of mainly excellent and a couple of terrible ones.
> 
> ...


I truly don’t understand how anyone could say this or believe it. This breeder is either HIGHLY uneducated, thus shouldn’t be breeding, or they’re saying what you want to hear to purposefully mislead you and make a sale (so dishonest and not reputable), and thus, shouldn’t be breeding.

Has every single dog you met had the exact same personality? Has every _poodle_ you met had the exact same personality? No? That’s because dogs are individuals, and while temperament is partly genetic, the dog’s experiences also shape their personality. There is zero chance you will get a puppy that is exactly like the adult poodle you like so much.

Don’t support a liar with your hard-earned money and encourage them to keep lying and scamming others.


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## JasMom (7 mo ago)

I'll echo the other responses you've received. It sounds like this breeder would be a pass for me.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

NikNak said:


> breeder also supplies dogs to become therapy and service dogs


This seems like a bit of misdirection, if that's how the breeder phrases it.
No one can tell if a puppy will be eventually grow up to *be* a therapy or service dog. If they aren't temperament testing around 7 weeks old, and they aren't spending daily time with each and every pup, how do they know at all what the temperament of any are?
To be fair, temperament and personality aren't the same, not exactly. The breed standard describes the expected temperament of any poodle to be:

"Temperament: Carrying himself proudly, very active, intelligent, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself. Major fault: shyness or sharpness."

That's the least to expect. There will be variances.

Are you familiar with Volhard testing? Many breeders do this to help fit a puppy and family. I find the terminology a bit out of date (some of this was devised decades ago) but still gives an idea of the puppy's overall, inborn characteristics, before too much external stimuli have been experienced.
Choosing Your Puppy (PAT) | Volhard Dog Nutrition

These are some videos of a breeder doing some testing. I don't know if Volhard or other type.
(8) Temperament Testing - Video Examples | Poodle Forum

When we chose our boys, I didn't know of the formal testing but having had five previous mpoos, I'd experienced a range of personalities, and felt confident that I could assess the pups by simply observing them with the breeder, some of the breeders family, their remaining sibling, and dam and sire.

I wanted a confident, more independent pup and my husband wanted a sweet natured, friendly pup. After hanging out for a couple of hours the first visit, when the pups were 8w old, and then a few days later to finalize our picks, we came home with two pups (generally not recommended!) and each got the personality we hoped for.
Because of some trauma from an attack, they both changed in their first approach to situations but have retained their underlying innate personality's. We're still working to help them fully recover.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

If you're comfortable asking about the breeder by name, it is within the rules and someone may have some additional info or experience to share. It really helps to be able to look over a website, when there is one, or offer a more specific critique.
Our S-Mods are very vigilant about keeping breeder discussions diplomatic and fact-based.

You can also do a search for the breeder/kennel name here on PF and see what comes up.
There's also the OFA search to review any PCA recommended health testing.
Advanced Search | OFA


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

Thanks so much for all this advice! Super helpful. I don’t think it would be right for me to name the breeder publicly. Perhaps I should ask the Poodle Club rep in their state? I have found that their dogs come with a three year health guarantee, although from the detailed advice posted above it sounds like that may not amount to anything? But it’s reassuring they offer it? The puppy will come with limited registration papers - which feels reassuring too?

There is another litter I am considering. Father is an AKC CH from Doevalley. Mother is a pet only. She came from Family Affair. The dam’s owner is fairly new to breeding poodles. This is a repeat breeding: they have had another litter two years ago and I have seen photos (but not met) the dogs from that litter. They have been very careful with health scoring both dogs and the genetic matching of these dogs. My question is….should I get a puppy from a dam who has only ever been a pet, and not been involved in confirmation, obedience, agility etc? The breeder seemed very nice when I spoke to them, and raises the litter in their living room. I want this dog as a companion for our family first and foremost.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

NikNak said:


> My question is….should I get a puppy from a dam who has only ever been a pet, and not been involved in confirmation, obedience, agility etc? The breeder seemed very nice when I spoke to them, and raises the litter in their living room. I want this dog as a companion for our family first and foremost.


For what you want, I'd say there is no reason to pass up on a dam that is fully health tested and has a great temperament. My Maizie's mother was not shown because the breeder knew she wouldn;'t like the show scene. However, she had an excellent pet temperament and passed her sweetness on to her pups.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

There is another litter I am considering. Father is an AKC CH from Doevalley. Mother is a pet only. She came from Family Affair. The dam’s owner is fairly new to breeding poodles. This is a repeat breeding: they have had another litter two years ago and I have seen photos (but not met) the dogs from that litter. They have been very careful with health scoring both dogs and the genetic matching of these dogs. My question is….should I get a puppy from a dam who has only ever been a pet, and not been involved in confirmation, obedience, agility etc? The breeder seemed very nice when I spoke to them, and raises the litter in their living room. I want this dog as a companion for our family first and foremost.
[/QUOTE]
Doevalley shows in UKC conformation not AKC, she does put AKC performance titles on her dogs. I would verify that both sire and dam have health testing to a minimum for a Chic number as I have not seen many Family Affair poodles with that distinction. And to me a breeder should do something with their dogs besides breed them to prove their temperament and conformation. But those are my requirements and may not be yours.


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

Thanks! What’s the difference between AKC and UKC? Is one better than the other?


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

NikNak said:


> Thanks! What’s the difference between AKC and UKC? Is one better than the other?


AKC is a more respected Champion title, harder to get. The Parent club for AKC is The Poodle Club of America (PCA) and writes the breed standard for poodles and therefore AKC. A lot of multi-color poodles are UKC CH because the AKC standard does not allow non solid color poodles. I look for an AKC Champion title as I look for AKC registered dogs and therefore that is the Club I believe the Champion title should come from. PCA also controls the tests required for getting a CHIC # (Canine Health Information Center Number).


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

Thank you so much! I’ve had a few spoo breeders recommended to me: anyone have any thoughts on the following breeders? Within 300 miles of NY? I’m looking for a healthy dog with good confirmation, confident and social, active (but with an off switch 🤣) family companion! I know a lot of that will come down to my training…

Piccolo, Maryland Standard, Berkshire, Doevalley, Five Sisters, Alexander and Firestorm have all been recommended. Ideally I want a black dog, but can be flexible about color for the right one.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

NikNak said:


> Thank you so much! I’ve had a few spoo breeders recommended to me: anyone have any thoughts on the following breeders?
> 
> Piccolo, Maryland Standard, Berkshire, Doevalley, Five Sisters, Alexander and Firestorm have all been recommended. Ideally I want a black dog, but can be flexible about color for the right one.


One of my poodle friends who has very high standards would highly recommend Piccolo.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

NikNak said:


> Thank you so much! I’ve had a few spoo breeders recommended to me: anyone have any thoughts on the following breeders? Within 300 miles of NY? I’m looking for a healthy dog with good confirmation, confident and social, active (but with an off switch 🤣) family companion! I know a lot of that will come down to my training…
> 
> Piccolo, Maryland Standard, Berkshire, Doevalley, Five Sisters, Alexander and Firestorm have all been recommended. Ideally I want a black dog, but can be flexible about color for the right one.


I would not recommend Berkshire nor Alexander. Neither do the health clearances that PCA recommends. Alexander has been sanctioned by the AKC as well. Berkshire is currently being investigated for cruelty; I have seen the first hand pictures from people who worked for them and they made me cry and were very upsetting.

I looked up the breeders on OFA, below are the results. I expect that breeders are transparent and post their results:
Piccolo all except one dog listed on OFA that could have CHIC numbers do. The one that doesn't may have never been bred so I can say that they do the recommended testing.
Maryland - Only 1 from 2011 has a chic #. I would avoid this breeder
Doevalley - Many have Chic # but currently has dogs at stud that do not. I question this as the litter listed on her website neither sire nor dam has a chic #.
Five Sisters - Only 1 dog on OFA no Chic #.
Firestorm - No current dogs on OFA with Firestorm

Have you reached out to breeder referral for PCA? I would start there. The breeders will be screened for doing their health clearances to meet the minimum standard for PCA. Most of the ones you have listed do not. PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America Leslie Newing will know who has puppies available as well as provide you a list of breeders that do their health testing and that should be a minimum requirement.


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## kuriooo (Feb 17, 2010)

I’d steer clear of Family Affair. I have a dog from their kennel that I adopted from another individual. She is a good pet for my family as a “first dog,” but she is not a “well-bred” dog. Probably not the worst bred, but if you are starting with a puppy, this wouldn’t be the kennel lineage I’d be looking for. I like some of the other suggestions on the thread.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

NikNak said:


> I don’t think it would be right for me to name the breeder publicly. Perhaps I should ask the Poodle Club rep in their state? I have found that their dogs come with a three year health guarantee, although from the detailed advice posted above it sounds like that may not amount to anything? But it’s reassuring they offer it? The puppy will come with limited registration papers - which feels reassuring too?


Re the breeder you prefer not to name, do check with the PCA referral folks. Also, did you search OFA, the health testing database, to see if their name came up there? If it does, that's a good sign.

Re the health guarantee,


Rose n Poos said:


> If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag


This means have they done the PCA/OFA testing for the variety. This is more than genetic testing alone. If a breeder has done the recommended testing, in its own way, that's a part of the guarantee to me.

For example, if a breeder rules out any coverage for patellae for toy or miniature poodles "because they can happen due to injury", ok, that's true, but if the parents were examined before breeding and found to have problems without a history of injury, then it's reasonable to think their pups might also be born with the tendency.

Copied from another thread:

_This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

• Genetic LIFETIME Guarentee: We guarentee for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not Guarentee for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies and select seizure disorders. We make every attempt to breed a healthy puppy. Health issues that arise other than Hips, Elbows, CERF/Eyes, Cardiac are CASE by CASE between parties and are not always covered in our health guarentee.

• Our pups leave with a WELL PUPPY exam by our breeder Veterinarian, Dr ____. We also use __Clinic in when Dr is out of the office . The Health exams are in Written format and provided with each pup file.
• We STRONGLY RECOMMEND all puppy families insure their new Addition with PET HEALTH INSURANCE.

• We take back our Standard Poodles as a lifetime commitment, NO CASH PAYMENTS with be REFUNDED.

• Purchase of a puppy is a LIFETIME Commitment and we recommend doing your Research and understand this is a lifetime commitment.

We provide lifetime breeder support and remain available to offer any information and updates you may need on care and treatment for all the standard poodles we place.

Should you have any questions regarding our information disclosed on this page, please feel free to contact us via phone ____ ."


Or this one (the whole contract/guarantee):


"This contract is between ___, hereinafter referred to as SELLER and _
, hereinafter referred to as BUYER(s).

Address of Buyer:
Phone: E-Mail:
Seller agrees to sell Buyer a puppy born
AKC#
Sire: AKC#
Dam: AKC#
For the sum of:
Deposit Amount:
Total Amount Due:

1) The Buyer agrees to provide a life-long commitment, comfortable environment, prompt medical attention, proper grooming and responsible care. This includes keeping this puppy/dog parasite free and up to date with inoculations, proper nutrition, which consists of a good quality feed given at regular intervals, and fresh water available at all times. The Buyer promises to provide a safe environment for the dog, and never allow the dog to roam freely without proper fencing or supervision. The Seller strongly recommends that the puppy/dog be microchipped in order to facilitate his return if lost or stolen.

2) The Seller guarantees this puppy/dog to be of sound health and temperament at the time of this sale. A health record of all shots and wormings will be provided by the Seller. This dog is in good health and free from communicable diseases to the best of Breeders’ knowledge. If the dog becomes ill within 14 days of receipt by Buyer, the cause of which is clearly attributable to the Seller. Breeders will reimburse Buyer for veterinary expenses related to the illness or Buyer may return the dog to Breeders for a full refund. Buyer shall notify Breeders, by telephone or electronic mail, within 48 hours of the diagnosis of the illness. Buyer shall take the dog to a licensed veterinarian of her choice within 72 hours of receipt of the dog for the 14 day health guarantee to be effective. Buyer is responsible for health, care, and feeding of the dog as of the date of receipt.

3) This dog is guaranteed free from serious inheritable diseases, including, but not limited to, Progressive Retinal Atrophy, patellar luxation, hip dysplasia, thyroid abnormalities, sebaceous adenitis, juvenile cataracts, diabetes, and Addison’s disease. If the dog develops any serious inheritable disease during their lifetime, Breeder shall either refund up to 100% of the purchase price or provide another dog to Buyer, The choice between a refund or a new dog shall be made by Buyer. Moreover, Buyer will not be required to return the dog to Breeder in order to receive the refund or the new dog. Breeder may request that Buyer obtain a second opinion with respect to any diagnosis of an inheritable disease. The medical cost of the second opinion shall be borne by Seller.

4) The Buyers agree not to use this animal for breeding and agree to have it spayed/neutered at the age recommended by their veterinarian. It is strongly suggested by the Seller that the puppy not be spayed/neutered until it has reached it’s full growth as to do otherwise may cause long term health concerns. The Buyer understands that the AKC registration papers do not accompany this puppy as part of the sale. A copy of said papers will be included at the time of the sale. However, after the above mentioned puppy has been neutered/spayed and the certification has been forwarded to the Seller, the Buyer will receive the AKC Registration papers at no additional cost. The Buyer agrees to register the dog using the kennel name as a prefix.

5) If at any time the Buyer can no longer retain possession of this dog, the Seller is to be notified and unless the Buyer is given written permission to place said dog, this dog must be returned to Seller by the Buyer. Refunds, if any, will be at the discretion of the Breeder/ Seller. The dog will be returned with all AKC papers and medical records. Should any circumstances arise that affect the quality of life of this dog, the breeder/seller is to be informed so that they may participate in determining the future of the dog.
The Breeder/ Seller reserves the right to approve/prohibit any transfer of this animal to a third party. Under no circumstances will this dog be sold, leased, traded or given away to any pet shop, research laboratory, animal shelter or similar facility.

6) The Buyer agrees to contact the Seller immediately if any questions or concerns arise about the dog, such as housing, diet, health or training. The buyer agrees to keep the seller informed of any treatment as it occurs. This provides the Breeder/Seller with an opportunity to follow up on puppies and gives us important feedback and information on the health or our dogs for future generations.


7) It is understood at the time of sale that this is a pet quality dog and it is representative of its breed. It is structurally and temperamentally suited as a companion and/or performance dog. Training classes are recommended for a happy relationship between the dog and family.

The preceding paragraphs contain conditions established to ensure the well being of the dog, but also to uphold and maintain the reputation of quality that ___ has established over many years. The Buyer’s agreements will continue for the dog’s life and the Seller will have the right to enforce the agreements.

Seller:
Signature:
Date:
Buyer:
Signature
Date:_



*but not this... This is only the health portion, not including their payment and shipping requirements):
(the emphatics are mine)*

_SELLER'S HEALTH GUARANTEE

All Poodles bred and sold are up-to-date in their medical treatments. Dogs are checked prior to shipping and are guaranteed to be sound and in good health.
PUPPIES whose age at a date of sale precludes completion of the scheduled series of inoculations, it is necessary for the purchaser to complete the scheduled series of inoculations ON TIME, in order to protect the puppy and for this health guarantee to remain valid.
A timetable for this series of inoculations will be supplied on the medical history of the puppy. In addition, until this series of inoculations has been complete (about 16 weeks of age) the puppy should not be exposed to premises known to be suspected of being contaminated or unhealthy animals.

___ certifies that at the time of sale and to the best of our knowledge, the puppy will be free of any congenital birth defects. Our puppies are guaranteed against parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale.

*Buyer has researched and is knowledgeable of the non life threatening problems that a dog may have, and agrees that these are not covered under this health guarantee.**_

*(* the breeder is supposed to be the expert but they put the burden on the buyer)*

_The buyer is advised to have this puppy examined by a competent veterinarian of the buyers' choice within 3 business days to assure them that they have purchased a healthy puppy. This will be done at the purchaser's expense. Under no circumstances will __ be responsible for any veterinarian bills acquired by the purchaser for this puppy.

*Minor, breed related, treatable or correctable conditions (such as Patellar Luxation, *Legg-Calvé-Perthes Disease, Cryptorchidism,* PRA-Prcd, etc), or any condition that may go away or is considered to be a condition which a puppy will likely outgrow, are not covered. ***_

*** these are not minor conditions in many cases, there is testing for several that could/should have been done on the breeding dogs*


_We give a very educated guess on mature size of pup but we do not guarantee size.

We DO NOT GIVE REFUNDS.
We will give a replacement puppy for* life threatening *genetic diseases.
If a health issue arises within the first TWENTY FOUR MONTHS of age which your vet believes could possibly be a *life threatening* genetic disease the following are the options:

(1) A written explanation from a licensed veterinarian and backed up with lab work or x-rays as to the nature of the problem.

(2) A second opinion from a Vet whom we have approved in advance to examine the puppy for signs of abuse or for life threatening congenital defect.

(3) Return the puppy and AKC papers to us at buyer’s expense. If you are unwilling to release the puppy and their papers into our possession, we will not be responsible for any medical expenses incurred (only medical expenses guaranteed are for parvovirus, distemper, hepatitis, kennel cough, or other communicable diseases at the time of sale) nor will we be a part of the recovery process.

(4) Proof that the puppy was examined by a certified veterinarian no later than 3 working days after receiving the puppy.

If the Vet's prognosis is that the puppy has a* life threatening *genetic disease and all of the above criteria are met, we will replace a puppy of equal value when one becomes available. No problems other than life threatening congenital defects are covered in this agreement.

We offer this guarantee until the puppy reaches two years of age. If at any time you transfer ownership of the puppy, this agreement is void immediately.

We are not responsible for the health of this Puppy after the 72 hours period. This is due to the possibility that the dog may become infected by a communicable disease after its delivery to the new owner.

BUYER'S RESPONSIBILITY:_


_Have the puppy examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of delivery. If a problem does arise, the Breeder is to be notified immediately following the examination of the puppy. The problem must also be verified by the Breeder's own veterinarian._
_Provide the puppy with routine preventive care, such as, but not limited to the following:_
_Annual physical examinations by a licensed veterinarian._
_Follow veterinarian guidelines for vaccinations and de-worming._
_All deposits are non-refundable._


Their website mentions OFA testing on many of their dogs, with patellae and hips frequently noted and yet their Health Guarantee says this
_"Guarantee does not cover what is to be considered normal of the breed purchased, such as but not limited to; Cherry eye, entropion, loose knees/hips, skin allergies, hip dysplasia, elongated soft palates, stenotic nares (collapsed nostrils)."_

That just seems curious to me. I looked at the OFA site to see if *_* came up as a kennel name and I got no results with that. You'll need the AKC registered name or the AKC registry number to find any results if they've published them.

*_* says this about themselves on the AKC Marketplace site:

_SINCE 2010
We are USDA and State licensed_

Being USDA and State licensed sounds like a good thing, but all it means is that they have above a certain number of adult or breeding dogs at their facility and over a certain number of litters a year so they are required to be licensed



NikNak said:


> The puppy will come with limited registration papers - which feels reassuring too


Limited registration is good. The question is, do they sell all puppies only with limited reg, or do they offer some with full reg but without mentioning that full reg requires a different contract and commitment from the buyer, such as the buyer will show the dog to a championship, etc.

NO to this
_When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from *__*, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our *____*)

• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to *____*
Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract._

NO to this also

_AKC Limited Registration is $1950.00 for all of our Pups and requires a $250.00 Non-Refundable but Transferable Deposit

*AKC Limited Registration does not allow the puppy/adult dog to participate in the AKC conformation show ring. It does allow for participation in all other AKC sanctioned events. You cannot breed or register offspring (puppies) with any registrar.

AKC Unlimited Registration is $2750.00 and requires a $500.00 Non-Refundable but Transferable Deposit

*AKC Unlimited Registration allows the puppy/adult dog to participate in the AKC conformation show ring and all other AKC sanctioned events. You can breed and register off-spring (puppies) with AKC, UKC, CKC or any other country’s registrar equivalent to the AKC._

There is nothing in writing stating the buyers responsibilities when getting full registration. The breeder is willing to hand their dogs over to someone, anyone who can pay the price, and allow that dog to be used/bred without restriction.

(How do you think puppy mills get their AKC registered dogs? This is a clue.)

YES if this
I've seen some examples of a full registration contract that makes the buyer and breeder co-owners until the dog gets it's championship by the buyer, then any breeding is still part of the joint contract until/unless there are further clauses.

Simply offering a dog to another home with the breeder still in control until the dog's breeding career is done is a different arrangement. This is a foster or guardian contract that may not require showing but the dog doesn't become the property of the family caring for it until breeding is over. 

If I find an example of either of these arrangements, I'll add them.


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## Tazidog (5 mo ago)

PoodlesinMass said:


> I would not recommend Berkshire nor Alexander. Neither do the health clearances that PCA recommends. Alexander has been sanctioned by the AKC as well. Berkshire is currently being investigated for cruelty; I have seen the first hand pictures from people who worked for them and they made me cry and were very upsetting.
> 
> I looked up the breeders on OFA, below are the results. I expect that breeders are transparent and post their results:
> Piccolo all except one dog listed on OFA that could have CHIC numbers do. The one that doesn't may have never been bred so I can say that they do the recommended testing.
> ...


I have an $8000+ (yes, eight thousand dollar) poodle from Berkshire Poodles. $2500 purchase price plus parvo hospital bill beginning the day after I picked up the puppy. He also has an ongoing infestation of hookworms and giardia, adding even more to the purchase price. The breeder keeps unvaccinated puppies at his doggy daycare. Steer clear of this puppy miller.


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## PoodlesinMass (10 mo ago)

Tazidog said:


> I have an $8000+ (yes, eight thousand dollar) poodle from Berkshire Poodles. $2500 purchase price plus parvo hospital bill beginning the day after I picked up the puppy. He also has an ongoing infestation of hookworms and giardia, adding even more to the purchase price. The breeder keeps unvaccinated puppies at his doggy daycare. Steer clear of this puppy miller.


Sorry you are going through this. People need to speak out about bad breeders. So much has been swept under the rug with Berkshire.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

NO - just no. Read Rose n Poos multiple posts thoroughly! They are excellent.


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

Thank you all for your advice! Super helpful. We just got an Alaman black spoo puppy! The PCA NY recommended him to us. He's gorgeous, and has the sweetest temperament.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

NikNak said:


> Thank you all for your advice! Super helpful. We just got an Alaman black spoo puppy! The PCA NY recommended him to us. He's gorgeous, and has the sweetest temperament.


Oh how lovely! Congratulations on your new addition. Consider starting a photo thread so we can enjoy him with you.  Perhaps related to @94Magna_Tom ’s Elroy?


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh how lovely! Congratulations on your new addition. Consider starting a photo thread so we can enjoy him with you.  Perhaps related to @94Magna_Tom ’s Elroy?


Great idea!


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh how lovely! Congratulations on your new addition. Consider starting a photo thread so we can enjoy him with you.  Perhaps related to @94Magna_Tom ’s Elroy?


Elroy is part Alaman on his father's side! Good chance we're related? Do you have his pedigree! 
Here's Elroy's:


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## NikNak (Nov 25, 2020)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Elroy is part Alaman on his father's side! Good chance we're related? Do you have his pedigree!
> Here's Elroy's:
> View attachment 497269


Yes, but no relations that I can see in there! My pup's dad is GCH Alaman's Wanna Be Like Me.


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Your Puppy's sire is a beautiful dog!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I get dizzy trying to read pedigrees when I can't see them both in the same format, but I think there is a relationship, and I think I see why farleysd might have some personal knowledge beyond a show ring .

I followed NikNak's trail from Alaman's Wanna Be Like Me up to Boxwood Brainteaser and Boxwood Busybody and then back down by looking for the names on Elroy's pedigree. 


The trail:

NikNak's pup born of 
GCH Alaman's Wanna Be Like Me

GCH Alaman's Wanna Be Like Me born of
Sire: MAGIN DRIVING ME CRAZY
Dam: ALAMAN'S IT'S ALL ABOUT ME

Alaman's It's All About Me born of
Sire: BOXWOOD BRAINTEASER
Dam: BOXWOOD BUSYBODY

Full Siblings of Alaman's It's All About Me:
ALAMAN BOXWOOD GOSSIP GIRL
ALAMAN'S ZENYATTA

The OFA link
ALAMAN'S WANNA BE LIKE ME (ofa.org)


Somebody tell me if I'm even a little close .


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Boxwood Brainteaser is Elroy's G.G. Grandfather so there is definitely _*some *_relation. 😍


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Brainteaser's call name was Bert, a really cool dog! He was bred to two of my girls. Loved what he produced, both looks and temperament! I have been around most of the dogs listed by Rose n Poos. Lovely dogs.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

From above postings. So is a contract even enforceable if they can't even spell important wording? Was it on purpose?

They can't even spell guarantee correctly! 
See Rose n Poos Aug 22
They used the following (highlighting is mine):

"Copied from another thread:

_This is an example of a contract I could live with (the whole contract):

"...please take a moment to READ the following contract language and ask any questions you may have BEFORE you enter into an agreement to purchase one of our puppies. Please read CAREFULLY and be SURE you Understand this is a SALE of a LIVE Animal/ Standard Poodle Puppy.
• A Deposit to purchase is a Commitment for a SALE. No CASH REFUNDS on Deposits placed to Secure a SALE. Our Deposits are $500.00 USA funds and are NON REFUNDABLE.

• Genetic LIFETIME *Guarentee*: We *guarentee* for the LIFE of the Puppy we SELL for ALL TESTABLE Diseases in the Sire and Dam. We stand behind: Hips, Elbows, CERF / EYES and Cardiac.
• We do not *Guarentee* for Cancer, Auto Immune Issues, Allergies an_ ...."

etc!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

kontiki said:


> From above postings. So is a contract even enforceable if they can't even spell important wording? Was it on purpose?
> 
> They can't even spell guarantee correctly!
> See Rose n Poos Aug 22
> ...


Yes, even with that misspelling, it is enforceable. But dang, they should have used spell check LOL


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