# Check out the new UKC conformation standard!



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

STANDARD POODLE (NEW)

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Official UKC Breed Standard
Revised June 1, 2012
@Copyright 1991, United Kennel Club, Inc.


The goals and purposes of this breed standard include: to furnish guidelines for breeders who wish to maintain the quality of their breed and to improve it; to advance this breed to a state of similarity throughout the world; and to act as a guide for judges. Breeders and judges have the responsibility to avoid any conditions or exaggerations that are detrimental to the health, welfare, essence and soundness of this breed, and must take the responsibility to see that these are not perpetuated.

Any departure from the following should be considered a fault, and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work as a gundog.

Please Note: For Conformation exhibition purposes only, the solid-colored dogs and multi-colored dogs are shown separately. They are not actually separate breeds.



HISTORY

Dogs similar in type to today’s Poodle were carved in Roman tombs as far back as 30 A.D. and can be seen in European paintings as early as the 15th century. Although the breed took its name from the German word “pudel,” which means “to splash in water,” the French were responsible for bringing the Poodle to international attention. The first Poodles in England were known as “Rough Water Dogs” and they served primarily as hunting companions. Poodles were first brought to the United States at the end of the 19th century, but the breed did not become popular until after World War II. By the mid ‘50s, the Poodle was the most popular breed in the United States, a position held for over 20 years. Today the Poodle is divided into two breeds: the Standard Poodle, which serves primarily as a gun dog and companion animal, and the Poodle, composed of the Miniature and Toy varieties, and which serves primarily as companion breed. The standards of the two breeds are essentially identical but for size.

The Poodle was recognized by United Kennel Club in 1914. The Poodle was divided into two breeds, Standard Poodle and Poodle, on January 1, 2000.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

GENERAL APPEARANCE

The Standard Poodle is a medium-sized, squarely built dog with a distinctive harsh curly coat that may be presented in any of several traditional Poodle clips or corded. The ears are long, drop, and densely feathered. The tail is normally docked, set high, and carried erect. The length of body (sternum to point of buttocks) is equal to the height (withers to ground). The Standard Poodle carries himself with an air of dignity and pride. The Standard Poodle should be evaluated as a working gun dog and exaggerations or faults should be penalized in proportion to how much they interfere with the dog’s ability to work.

Working dogs are not to be penalized under any conditions for scars or blemishes that are due to hunting injuries.

Disqualifications: Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid.

CHARACTERISTICS

The Standard Poodle’s most readily identifiable characteristic is its harsh, dense coat, which is presented in various traditional trims or, less frequently, corded. Another essential characteristic is proper temperament. The breed is noted for its high intelligence, trainability and sense of humor. Poodles are highly social and require human companionship and regular, close interaction with family members. Because of their great intelligence and the joy they take in human companionship, Poodles excel in performance events of all sorts. They are extremely affectionate with children.

Disqualifications: Viciousness or extreme shyness.

HEAD

The head is proportionate to the size of the dog. When viewed from the side, the skull and muzzle are roughly parallel to one another and joined by a slight but definite stop.

SKULL - The skull is long and moderately rounded on top. Cheeks are clean and flat.

MUZZLE - In profile, the muzzle is straight and roughly equal in length to the length of the skull, measured from stop to occiput. The muzzle is fine with a slight chiseling under the eyes but with sufficient depth of underjaw to prevent snipiness. Lips are tight with black or liver pigment appropriate to coat color.

Serious Faults: Lip pigment incomplete or of wrong color for color of coat; weak underjaw.

TEETH - The Standard Poodle has a complete set of evenly spaced, white teeth meeting in a scissors bite. 

Serious Faults: Overshot, undershot, wry mouth.

NOSE - Nose leather is liver for dogs with brown or café-au-lait coat color. Dogs with coats of all other colors must have black pigment, except that dogs with apricot coats may have liver nose pigment but it is not preferred.

Serious Faults: Nose pigment incomplete or of wrong color for color of coat. 

EYES - Eyes are oval in shape and set sufficiently wide apart to give an alert, intelligent expression. Eyes are dark brown in dogs with black pigment, and range from dark brown to dark amber for dogs with liver pigment.

Serious Faults: Round, protruding, large or very light eyes; eye and eye rim colors wrong for color of coat; eye rim pigment incomplete.

EARS - Ears are drop with long, wide, densely-feathered ear leather. Ears are set at or slightly below eye level and hang close to the head.

Fault: Excessively long ear fringe.

NECK

The neck is of sufficient length and strength to permit the head to be carried high when standing or moving. The neck blends smoothly into well-laid-back shoulders. The skin on the neck and throat is tight.

Serious Fault: Ewe neck

FOREQUARTERS

Shoulders are smoothly muscled. The shoulder blades are long and well laid back. The upper arm appears to be equal in length to that of the shoulder blade and joins it at an apparent right angle. Elbows are close to the body. The forelegs are straight with bone and muscle proportionate to the size of the dog. Pasterns are strong and slightly sloping. Viewed from the front, the forelegs are parallel. Viewed from the side, the point of elbow is directly below the withers.

Serious Fault: Upright shoulders.

BODY

A properly proportioned Standard Poodle is square, with the length of body (measured from prosternum to point of buttocks) equal to height (measured from the withers to the ground). The length of the front leg (measured from point of elbow to the ground) is just slightly longer than half the dog’s height. The line of the back drops off almost imperceptibly behind the withers and is then level. The loin is short, broad and muscular with moderate tuck-up. The ribs extend well back and are well sprung out from the spine, then curving down and inward to form a deep body. The brisket extends to the elbow. Viewed from the front, the chest is well filled and moderately wide.

HINDQUARTERS

Hindquarters are muscular and with broad second thighs. The angulation of the hindquarters is in balance with the angulation of the forequarters. The stifles are well bent and the hocks are well let down. When the dog is standing, the short, strong rear pasterns are perpendicular to the ground and, viewed from the rear, parallel to each other. In profile, the croup is nearly flat.

FEET

Good feet are essential for a working gun dog. The feet are relatively small, oval in shape and compact with well-arched toes and thick, elastic pads. Feet do not turn in or out. Nails are short and dark or self-colored, depending on coat color. Dewclaws may be removed. 

Serious Faults: Thin pads, splay foot.

TAIL

The tail is straight, set high, and customarily docked to a length proportionate to the size of the dog. Whether standing or moving, the tail is carried erect.

Serious Faults: Low tail set, tail curled or carried over the back.

COAT

The Standard Poodle has harsh, dense, curly coat. For conformation exhibition, the coat may be presented naturally, corded, or in one of the traditional clips described below. Quality is never to be sacrificed in favor of the type of clip in which a dog is presented.

Corded - The cords are tight and of even diameter but varying lengths. Cords may be longer on the mane, body coat, head and ears; shorter on puffs, bracelets and pompons.

Clips - In all of the traditional clips described below, the hair on the topskull may be left free or held in place by elastic bands, which may not be used elsewhere in the coat.

Puppy. The coat is long with the face, throat, feet and base of the tail shaved. A pompon shall be left on the end of the tail. The coat may be shaped to give a neat appearance.

English Saddle. The face, throat, feet, forelegs and base of tail are shaved, leaving puffs on the forelegs and a pompon on end of the tail. The hindquarters are covered with a short blanket of hair except for a curved shaved area on each flank. Each rear leg is circled by two shaved bands, one just above the stifle and one just above the hock joint. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped for balance.



Continental. Face, throat, feet and base of tail are shaved. Hindquarters are shaved with pompons on the hips optional. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. Legs are shaved leaving bracelets on the rear legs and puffs on the forelegs. A portion of the foreleg is shaved above the puff. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped for balance.



Sporting. Face, feet, throat and base of tail are shaved. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. Coat on the top of the head is scissored into a cap. The rest of the body and legs are trimmed following the outline of the dog. The body coat shall be no longer than 1 inch in length. Leg hair may be slightly longer.

COLOR

Acceptable colors for the Standard Poodle are apricot, black, blue, cream, gray, silver, white, red, silver beige and all shades of brown, including café-au-lait. Dogs whose coats are of the brown shades may have dark amber eyes; liver noses, eye rims and lips; and dark nails. Dogs with apricot coat color may have this combination of eye, pigment and nail color as well but it is not desirable. All others must have very dark eyes; black noses, eye rims and lips; and black or self-colored nails. Coat color is solid and even. Clear colors are preferred but natural variations in the shading of the coat are not to be considered a fault.

Disqualification: Any color other than described above; albinism.

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT

Over 15 inches, measured at the withers.

GAIT

When trotting, the gait is effortless, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach in front and drive behind. Action is light and springy with head and tail carried up. Poor movement should be penalized to the degree that it reduces the Standard Poodle’s ability to perform the tasks it was bred to do.

ELIMINATING FAULTS

(An Eliminating Fault is a Fault serious enough that it eliminates the dog from obtaining any awards in a conformation event.)

15 inches or under in height.

DISQUALIFICATIONS

(A dog with a Disqualification must not be considered for placement in a bench show/conformation event, and must be reported to UKC.)

Unilateral or bilateral cryptorchid.

Viciousness or extreme shyness.

Albinism.

Any color other than described above.

The docking of tails and cropping of ears in America is legal and remains a personal choice. However, as an international registry, the United Kennel Club, Inc. is aware that the practices of cropping and docking have been forbidden in some countries. In light of these developments, the United Kennel Club, Inc. feels that no dog in any UKC event, including conformation, shall be penalized for a full tail or natural ears.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

These dogs look different than the current AKC show style of dogs. Bonnie resembles this type, particularly in the muscular rear end and she did well in UKC over AKC show dogs. Jazz has MUCH longer rear legs. I am not sure about his long rear legs - we shall see . He also doesn't seem as muscular in the rear as Bonnie did, but has more elegance for sure:

UKC pictures of poodles:


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Cool. I like how it emphasises the working nature.



outwest said:


>


The first drawing looks OK. This one kind of looks like she might have rubbishy shoulders disguised by lots of fluff. xD


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Wow, thanks for posting! I think it's great they are encouraging more moderate dogs who are able to work....I think we need both kinds of poodle. Jazz seems to be more what the AKC is looking for, so he's going to look different than Bonnie. It will be interesting to compare them as Jazz gets older.


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## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

outwest said:


> It also addresses more than once that the dog must be able to do the job it was bred for - gun dog.


YES!

Greg


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## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

These were the type of poodles I saw at the Houston Dog Show. Their back legs really stuck out because they were very muscular (maybe this is the advantage of having the continental clip?) - looked very different from Leroy's legs. He has long skinny legs. The poodles in the ring looked like football player legs, where Leroy's looked like a ballerina's legs lol.


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## dogs123 (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks for this post....I found it very interesting..


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

nevermind, sorry!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Aside from color, I see no difference in the dog described in this standard as compared to the official breed standard as stated by the Poodle Club of America. Illustrated Breed Standard

Remember, the exaggeration you see in the show ring is not necessarily correct or called for in the official PCA breed standard (the only REAL breed standard). The problem is *NOT* the standard, but what judges sometimes choose to put up and what breeders sometimes choose to breed, even though it differs greatly from what is CORRECT.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Aside from color, I see no difference in the dog described in this standard as compared to the official breed standard as stated by the Poodle Club of America. Illustrated Breed Standard
> 
> Remember, the exaggeration you see in the show ring is not necessarily correct or called for in the official PCA breed standard (the only REAL breed standard). The problem is *NOT* the standard, but what judges sometimes choose to put up and what breeders sometimes choose to breed, even though it differs greatly from what is CORRECT.



I don't think there is a difference, however this revised standard specifically faults exaggeration and puts a bit more emphasis on the fact that the poodle is (or was, not many are anymore) a working dog. At least, that's what I picked up on.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, that is what it does. It tries to emphasize the working nature of the standard poodle while not discounting the nature of the poodles personality. The differences I have seen between UKC and AKC other than there being far more poodles shown in AKC, is that the super showy ones win more often in the AKC shows than in the UKC shows. I know of AKC champions that had a harder time in UKC. This is only my observation, but it seems to hold true. 

Hopefully, this added emphasis in UKC will trickle down to AKC. The judges hold most of the cards on that, but I would like to see AKC change. I know it is not particularly realistic, but one can always hope. There are good judges in AKC, very good judges. I have seen those, too.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Hopefully, this added emphasis in UKC will trickle down to AKC. The judges hold most of the cards on that, but I would like to see AKC change. I know it is not particularly realistic, but one can always hope. There are good judges in AKC, very good judges. I have seen those, too.


Yeah...I don't see that happening!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> I don't think there is a difference, however this revised standard specifically faults exaggeration and puts a bit more emphasis on the fact that the poodle is (or was, not many are anymore) a working dog. At least, that's what I picked up on.


I agree. But it was also implied (or maybe it wasn't) that the illustration of the poodle was in some way "stronger" appearing than the PCA illustrated poodle, and with that I disagree.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

What was implied was that the illustrations are of a stronger dog than what you actually see in the ring, whether it be AKC or UKC, but the UKC standard is making it clearer what they want. I don't think poodles should morph into boxers! I do think we could use some more muscle on many. My new puppy is of the type seem most often in the AKC ring. I already want to bulk him up.  

Here is the AKC standard:
Poodle Breed Standard

Non-Sporting Group
Toy Group

The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and Miniature varieties except as regards heights.

General Appearance, Carriage and Condition 
That of a very active, intelligent and elegant-appearing dog, squarely built, well proportioned, moving soundly and carrying himself proudly. Properly clipped in the traditional fashion and carefully groomed, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself.

Size, Proportion, Substance 
Size
The Standard Poodle is over 15 inches at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is 15 inches or less in height shall be disqualified from competition as a Standard Poodle.

The Miniature Poodle is 15 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders, with a minimum height in excess of 10 inches. Any Poodle which is over 15 inches or is 10 inches or less at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Miniature Poodle.

The Toy Poodle is 10 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders shall be disqualified from competition as a Toy Poodle.

As long as the Toy Poodle is definitely a Toy Poodle, and the Miniature Poodle a Miniature Poodle, both in balance and proportion for the Variety, diminutiveness shall be the deciding factor when all other points are equal.

Proportion - To insure the desirable squarely built appearance, the length of body measured from the breastbone to the point of the rump approximates the height from the highest point of the shoulders to the ground.

Substance - Bone and muscle of both forelegs and hindlegs are in proportion to size of dog.

Head and Expression 
(a) Eyes-- very dark, oval in shape and set far enough apart and positioned to create an alert intelligent expression. Major fault: eyes round, protruding, large or very light.

(b) Ears-- hanging close to the head, set at or slightly below eye level. The ear leather is long, wide and thickly feathered; however, the ear fringe should not be of excessive length.

(c) Skull-- moderately rounded, with a slight but definite stop. Cheekbones and muscles flat. Length from occiput to stop about the same as length of muzzle.

(d) Muzzle-- long, straight and fine, with slight chiseling under the eyes. Strong without lippiness. The chin definite enough to preclude snipiness. Major fault: lack of chin. Teeth-- white, strong and with a scissors bite. Major fault: undershot, overshot, wry mouth.

Neck, Topline, Body
Neck well proportioned, strong and long enough to permit the head to be carried high and with dignity. Skin snug at throat. The neck rises from strong, smoothly muscled shoulders. Major fault: ewe neck. 

The topline is level, neither sloping nor roached, from the highest point of the shoulder blade to the base of the tail, with the exception of a slight hollow just behind the shoulder.

Body
(a) Chest deep and moderately wide with well sprung ribs. (b) The loin is short, broad and muscular. (c) Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline. Major fault: set low, curled, or carried over the back.

Forequarters 
Strong, smoothly muscled shoulders. The shoulder blade is well laid back and approximately the same length as the upper foreleg. Major fault: steep shoulder. 

(a) Forelegs - Straight and parallel when viewed from the front. When viewed from the side the elbow is directly below the highest point of the shoulder. The pasterns are strong. Dewclaws may be removed.

Feet - The feet are rather small, oval in shape with toes well arched and cushioned on thick firm pads. Nails short but not excessively shortened. The feet turn neither in nor out. Major fault: paper or splay foot.

Hindquarters 
The angulation of the hindquarters balances that of the forequarters.

(a) Hind legs straight and parallel when viewed from the rear. Muscular with width in the region of the stifles which are well bent; femur and tibia are about equal in length; hock to heel short and perpendicular to the ground. When standing, the rear toes are only slightly behind the point of the rump. Major fault: cow-hocks.

Coat 
(a) Quality--(1) Curly: of naturally harsh texture, dense throughout. (2) Corded: hanging in tight even cords of varying length; longer on mane or body coat, head, and ears; shorter on puffs, bracelets, and pompons.

(b) Clip-- A Poodle under 12 months may be shown in the "Puppy" clip. In all regular classes, Poodles 12 months or over must be shown in the "English Saddle" or "Continental" clip. In the Stud Dog and Brood Bitch classes and in a non-competitive Parade of Champions, Poodles may be shown in the "Sporting" clip. A Poodle shown in any other type of clip shall be disqualified.

(1) "Puppy"--A Poodle under a year old may be shown in the "Puppy" clip with the coat long. The face, throat, feet and base of the tail are shaved. The entire shaven foot is visible. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. In order to give a neat appearance and a smooth unbroken line, shaping of the coat is permissible. (2) "English Saddle"--In the "English Saddle" clip the face, throat, feet, forelegs and base of the tail are shaved, leaving puffs on the forelegs and a pompon on the end of the tail. The hindquarters are covered with a short blanket of hair except for a curved shaved area on each flank and two shaved bands on each hindleg. The entire shaven foot and a portion of the shaven leg above the puff are visible. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped in order to insure overall balance. (3) "Continental"--In the "Continental" clip, the face, throat, feet, and base of the tail are shaved. The hindquarters are shaved with pompons (optional) on the hips. The legs are shaved, leaving bracelets on the hindlegs and puffs on the forelegs. There is a pompon on the end of the tail. The entire shaven foot and a portion of the shaven foreleg above the puff are visible. The rest of the body is left in full coat but may be shaped in order to insure overall balance. (4) "Sporting"--In the "Sporting" clip, a Poodle shall be shown with face, feet, throat, and base of tail shaved, leaving a scissored cap on the top of the head and a pompon on the end of the tail. The rest of the body, and legs are clipped or scissored to follow the outline of the dog leaving a short blanket of coat no longer than one inch in length. The hair on the legs may be slightly longer than that on the body.

In all clips the hair of the topknot may be left free or held in place by elastic bands. The hair is only of sufficient length to present a smooth outline. "Topknot" refers only to hair on the skull, from stop to occiput. This is the only area where elastic bands may be used.

Color 
The coat is an even and solid color at the skin. In blues, grays, silvers, browns, cafe-au-laits, apricots and creams the coat may show varying shades of the same color. This is frequently present in the somewhat darker feathering of the ears and in the tipping of the ruff. While clear colors are definitely preferred, such natural variation in the shading of the coat is not to be considered a fault. Brown and cafe-au-lait Poodles have liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, dark toenails and dark amber eyes. Black, blue, gray, silver, cream and white Poodles have black noses, eye-rims and lips, black or self colored toenails and very dark eyes. In the apricots while the foregoing coloring is preferred, liver-colored noses, eye-rims and lips, and amber eyes are permitted but are not desirable. Major fault: color of nose, lips and eye-rims incomplete, or of wrong color for color of dog.

Parti-colored dogs shall be disqualified. The coat of a parti-colored dog is not an even solid color at the skin but is of two or more colors.

Gait 
A straightforward trot with light springy action and strong hindquarters drive. Head and tail carried up. Sound effortless movement is essential.

Temperament 
Carrying himself proudly, very active, intelligent, the Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself. Major fault: shyness or sharpness.

Major Faults 
Any distinct deviation from the desired characteristics described in the Breed Standard.

Disqualifications 
Size-- A dog over or under the height limits specified shall be disqualified. Clip-- A dog in any type of clip other than those listed under coat shall be disqualified. Parti-colors-- The coat of a parti-colored dog is not an even solid color at the skin but of two or more colors. Parti-colored dogs shall be disqualified.

Value of Points 
General appearance, temperament, carriage and condition.......30
Head, expression, ears, eyes and teeth.......20
Body, neck, legs, feet and tail.......20
Gait.......20
Coat, color and texture.......10

Approved August 14, 1984
Reformatted March 27, 1990


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The akc standard puts emphasis in different areas. It is over 20 years old. Perhaps they are ready for an update, too.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> The akc standard puts emphasis in different areas. It is over 20 years old. Perhaps they are ready for an update, too.



Outwest, the UKC and AKC illustration both show an equally powerful dog. And such powerful dogs DO appear in the show ring. 

Have you seen London up close? Thomas? Talk about protruding thigh muscles!  These dogs are the epitome of strong. Body, muscle, good conditioning. Most people, even those showing in AKC wants a strong poodle with powerful movement, dense thigh muscles. 

And of course Jazz needs more muscle tone. He's a baby for crying out loud!

I highly suggest that anyone wanting to learn and understand the breed standard study this. www.poodleclubofamerica.org/files/IllustratedStandard.pdf I look at it often, all the time. My understanding of the standard increases with every time I see it.

And if you see a dog that perfectly meets every aspect of the breed standard, please let me know, I'd like a puppy from them!!!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I agree. But it was also implied (or maybe it wasn't) that the illustration of the poodle was in some way "stronger" appearing than the PCA illustrated poodle, and with that I disagree.


 Hmmm, perhaps....or maybe too much emphasis was put on the fact that a poodle should have well toned muscles. I went to 3 shows over the past three weekends and was appalled at the number of poodles I saw with very little muscle tone. I felt like they were being kept in crates all the time for the sake of their coats...I also saw some flatter feet going on too, and again I felt like some of it was from standing in a crate all day. Some also obviously just had flat feet...one poodle's feet were so flat they looked like duck feet...no arched toes at all, completely flat and flapping around as she moved. I almost giggled out loud! 

On the other hand, there are also poodles who just simply don't have much muscle, no matter how much exercise they get. I'm observing that many times they are pretty leggy, almost enough to be unbalanced, and tend towards more exaggerated angles. I guess they would be termed "over refined". They just look so delicate!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

London is well muscled, he is also the #1 standard in the nation right now. He also doesn't have a completely straight muzzle from what I can tell.  NO dog is perfect, none. I was talking about what seems to be the majority of dogs I see in the ring. There are certainly some great looking, not perfect, poodles in the ring and sometimes they even win! 

There are so many bits of the dog to consider, some far more important than looks.

mom24doggies, I totally agree. Some of those dogs look like they have been sheltered/crated to protect hair. So sad.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> Hmmm, perhaps....or maybe too much emphasis was put on the fact that a poodle should have well toned muscles. I went to 3 shows over the past three weekends and was appalled at the number of poodles I saw with very little muscle tone. I felt like they were being kept in crates all the time for the sake of their coats...I also saw some flatter feet going on too, and again I felt like some of it was from standing in a crate all day. Some also obviously just had flat feet...one poodle's feet were so flat they looked like duck feet...no arched toes at all, completely flat and flapping around as she moved. I almost giggled out loud!
> 
> On the other hand, there are also poodles who just simply don't have much muscle, no matter how much exercise they get. I'm observing that many times they are pretty leggy, almost enough to be unbalanced, and tend towards more exaggerated angles. I guess they would be termed "over refined". They just look so delicate!


Although in the purest sense of the term, if a dog is refined, he has "_bone and muscle in perfect proportion to size of dog; showing quality throughout; the opposite of coarse or overdone. _". So while many people refer to a dog that lacks body and muscle tone to be "overly refined", these is not necessarily the case.

You must also consider the age of a dog and their line. Some show their dogs quite young, before muscle tone has fully developed. Some develop muscle tone quite young, some lines are much slower to mature. And some are just lacking in substance period.

I am certainly not an expert and have not bred yet, but I don't know how much environment really has to do with feet. IMO, if they're born with good feet, they've got good feet. I've seen some pretty crappy feet on poodles that run, play and live in a home. I don't buy all those claims breeders have about using gravel, etc. to tighten feet. Like I said, if they've got 'em, they've got 'em.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Although in the purest sense of the term, if a dog is refined, he has "_bone and muscle in perfect proportion to size of dog; showing quality throughout; the opposite of coarse or overdone. _". So while many people refer to a dog that lacks body and muscle tone to be "overly refined", these is not necessarily the case.
> 
> You must also consider the age of a dog and their line. Some show their dogs quite young, before muscle tone has fully developed. Some develop muscle tone quite young, some lines are much slower to mature. And some are just lacking in substance period.
> 
> I am certainly not an expert and have not bred yet, but I don't know how much environment really has to do with feet. IMO, if they're born with good feet, they've got good feet. I've seen some pretty crappy feet on poodles that run, play and live in a home. I don't buy all those claims breeders have about using gravel, etc. to tighten feet. Like I said, if they've got 'em, they've got 'em.


. I don't consider a dog that lacks body or muscle to be overly refined...I consider ones that don't have enough bone, are too leggy, and have exaggerated angles to be overly refined. (perhaps thats not overly refined though...correct me if I'm wrong) I've observed that lack of muscle tends to go along with those traits.  

As far as the feet, yes environment does play some part in it in my limited experience. Trev has flat feet...not horribly so, and his rear feet are much better than the front, but they definitely need more arch in the toe. If he stays crated a lot for a few days without exercise, they are noticeably flatter. Nail length also plays a part for him...if I let them get too long I notice a difference. You are right though, you can't make flat feet beautiful with exercise and rough surfaces, it simply improves them. Thank goodness Raven has decent feet! Especially for a toy....that was one thing that bugged me about Trev, his feet.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> . I don't consider a dog that lacks body or muscle to be overly refined...I consider ones that don't have enough bone, are too leggy, and have exaggerated angles to be overly refined. (perhaps thats not overly refined though...correct me if I'm wrong) I've observed that lack of muscle tends to go along with those traits.
> 
> As far as the feet, yes environment does play some part in it in my limited experience. Trev has flat feet...not horribly so, and his rear feet are much better than the front, but they definitely need more arch in the toe. If he stays crated a lot for a few days without exercise, they are noticeably flatter. Nail length also plays a part for him...if I let them get too long I notice a difference. You are right though, you can't make flat feet beautiful with exercise and rough surfaces, it simply improves them. Thank goodness Raven has decent feet! Especially for a toy....that was one thing that bugged me about Trev, his feet.


Exaggerated angles would be overangulation, not overrefinement.

Because refinement means being in perfect balance, I don't know that overrefinement really has a proper use. Perhaps coarse and overdone are the best descriptors. 

Nails cause feet to appear flatter, especially if they already have any slight flatness, this is why we keep them so short in the ring. But IMO, good feet are good feet no matter what you do. You can't make Millie's feet go flat, no matter how long she stands in a crate, or how long her nails get, her feet are tight as can be.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Exaggerated angles would be overangulation, not overrefinement.
> 
> Because refinement means being in perfect balance, I don't know that overrefinement really has a proper use. Perhaps coarse and overdone are the best descriptors.
> 
> Nails cause feet to appear flatter, especially if they already have any slight flatness, this is why we keep them so short in the ring. But IMO, good feet are good feet no matter what you do. You can't make Millie's feet go flat, no matter how long she stands in a crate, or how long her nails get, her feet are tight as can be.


 Maybe you are right, either overdone or coarse would be better terms. However I hear breeders using the term over refinement to describe what I'm talking about and I guess that's why I use it. To me, it makes sense. 

Right, but Millie has good feet...not all dogs do and I've observed that mediocre or even bad feet can _sometimes_ be improved. And long nails absolutely can destroy a pretty foot, I've seen it happen as a dog groomer. They put pressure on the foot and break it down. However, in Trev's case I'm sure it IS just appearances as I don't allow his to stay long for very long.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mom24doggies said:


> Maybe you are right, either overdone or coarse would be better terms. However I hear breeders using the term over refinement to describe what I'm talking about and I guess that's why I use it. To me, it makes sense.
> 
> Right, but Millie has good feet...not all dogs do and I've observed that mediocre or even bad feet can _sometimes_ be improved. And long nails absolutely can destroy a pretty foot, I've seen it happen as a dog groomer. They put pressure on the foot and break it down. However, in Trev's case I'm sure it IS just appearances as I don't allow his to stay long for very long.


I understand what you are saying. 


And the foot thing, I agree that maybe you can improve bad or mediocre feet, but, they are still bad or mediocre feet.   The goal is to breed good feet. My point was that these feet that you see at shows that are flat, more than likely it's genetics and breeding causing the flat feet you saw. 

Millie has amazing feet. Her line is known for that. T has good feet, but nothin' like hers!!!!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Have you seen London up close? Thomas? Talk about protruding thigh muscles!  These dogs are the epitome of strong. Body, muscle, good conditioning. Most people, even those showing in AKC wants a strong poodle with powerful movement, dense thigh muscles.


I have seen London up close. I was close enough to touch him (not that I would have!). 

Wowie! It's amazing to watch him move, it really takes your breath away. He is still proportionate and he is not bulky in any way. He is strong, powerful and graceful all at once.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I agree, London is not bulky, he is muscular and proportionate yet graceful- exactly how they should be.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Feet can be corrected in a young dog. In the old days, breeders used to slightly elevate the puppy pen and have tight wire, tighter than chicken wire, on the bottom of the pen. This teaches the puppies to tighten their feet when they move. I never saw gross splayed feet way back when, but you sure do now. They say gravel has the same effect and for the same reason.

Super tight feet, in my opinion, is part genetics, part environment.

If a dog in the ring is under twelve months of age, there is no way know if it has muscle definition. It is loaded with coat until it is a year old and is put into a Continental clip. Outwest, your puppy will be fine. Get him out in the yard. Toss a ball or frisbee. When he is fully vaccinated, get him out to dog parks and let him run full out. This will develop tons of muscle and tone.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Never mind...lol!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

There is a lot to be said for more moderate dogs. Quincy is not fancy. He has been torn to shreds on this forum and eventually it gets one wondering. I had a show breeder of 40 years here this week while her friend's dog was bred to my dear boy. I asked her to go over him. Her opinion is, he is perfectly balanced. I have heard this from his handler and other handlers as well. He is a very small male, with a decent chest for his size. And because of his size, he is not heavily angulated. If he was, he would look ridiculous. He looks like the dog in the first photo.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I think some people have glazed over what CM said...it isn't AKC's "standard" its PCA's standard... so the people who have bred poodles longer than most of the people on this thread have been alive wrote, illustrated, and adopted THAT standard as their own.

Trends change, but the standard remains the same! I know I can recite it verbatim but I know several "breeders" that have no idea what a decent dog should look like let alone the proper terminology 

So...I think people should take time to read the breed clubs standard, understand it and memorize it before they even attempt reading this reworded convoluted thing


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Get him out in the yard. Toss a ball or frisbee. When he is fully vaccinated, get him out to dog parks and let him run full out. This will develop tons of muscle and tone.


lol, but not too much as they advise, because too much vigorous exercise can put strain on the joints and contribute to hip dysplasia.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't. xD


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> I think
> 
> So...I think people should take time to read the breed clubs standard, understand it and memorize it before they even attempt reading this reworded convoluted thing


Keith, the breed club standard is the breed club standard. The AKC standard takes it and puts a different emphasis on it and so does UKC. The judges are instructed to go by the AKC and the UKC standards when showing in those arenas, but most judges, if they are good, will go by the PCA illustrated. 

The PCA standard is good, but it needs to be revised. It is ancient and because of the way some of it is worded, people have gone too far. They don't need to change it, per se, they need to put it into the modern context of speech. 

CM and Arreau's point about balance is exactly right. The dog must be balanced whether short backed or long in the loin, whether large or small, short legged or long legged. My Bonnie is very well balanced. She floats when she moves, jumps and turns effortlessly. She also does not have the reach she could if her shoulders were further back, but it doesn't negate the fact that she is an efficient, very fast and beautiful little mover that turns heads in the dog park. 

The trick is to get a well balanced dog that matches with the breed standard. Bonnie does not match all that much with the PCA breed standard, but her balanced movement is effortless and beautiful. 









She would not make it in an AKC ring, but give me her efficiency in the field any day. She can keep up with most dogs when you would think because of her size and leg length, should wouldn't. She is blazingly fast, a machine with perfect control of her body:


















My new puppy is way too young to know, but he appears to handle his much longer legs pretty well. Today he was bouncing when he moved so cutely (until he tripped on a lump of grass LOL)! He may or may not end up as efficient and agile and graceful as my short legged gal. Just like Quincy, it is about the balance, not the length of legs or amount of angles.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Millie is perfectly balanced, too. But she does not meet the breed standard. 

Balance is important, but just because a dog is balanced does not mean they are correct.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Keith, the breed club standard is the breed club standard. The AKC standard takes it and puts a different emphasis on it and so does UKC.
> 
> This is not true. AKC uses the PCA standard.
> 
> The judges are instructed to go by the AKC and the UKC standards when showing in those arenas, but most judges, if they are good, will go by the PCA illustrated. See above.


 ********


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> Keith, the breed club standard is the breed club standard. The AKC standard takes it and puts a different emphasis on it and so does UKC. The judges are instructed to go by the AKC and the UKC standards when showing in those arenas, but most judges, if they are good, will go by the PCA illustrated.


Outwest, this is not correct. 

The AKC does nothing with the breed standards. They are all owned and maintained by the parent clubs. 

UKC, however, does issue their own breed standards and these are owned by UKC.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The wording is exactly the same in the AKC standard and the PCA standard? Must go check.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Yes they're exactly the same because AKC doesn't have anything to do with writing of standards. Breed clubs write their standards then must submit them to AKC for approval, AKC also has to approve any amendments to the standard by the breed club...thats it because they are only a registry, a registry that controls stud books and events the end (the reason why I LOVE AKC vs. UKC or FCI because we don't let a governing body determine what we should do with our dogs our breed clubs decide ^_^ unlike those other 2 and many more)


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Even though people often use the phrase "AKC standard" all of the standards for all of the breeds are those of the parent clubs.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

UKC has not changed the PCA standard, they have put emphasis in different areas because there have been problems with it's interpretation over the last thirty years.


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## poodlesrule (May 23, 2012)

Very interesting- thanks for posting!


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Millie is perfectly balanced, too. But she does not meet the breed standard.


Whoa CM! What do you mean Millies does not meet the breed standard. Is she parti-coloured? I know she is over 15 inches and could be put in a continental or english saddle in a couple of hours. The only disqualifications are size, coat colour or clip.

Do NOT mistake what is winning in the ring as the only *type* of dog that is *correct* according to the *standard*. 

The standard is very liberal and Millie looks every inch a poodle.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Whoa CM! What do you mean Millies does not meet the breed standard. Is she parti-coloured? I know she is over 15 inches and could be put in a continental or english saddle in a couple of hours. The only disqualifications are size, coat colour or clip.
> 
> Do NOT mistake what is winning in the ring as the only *type* of dog that is *correct* according to the *standard*.
> 
> The standard is very liberal and Millie looks every inch a poodle.


You're right, I was harsh on her. She appreciates you standing up for her.  She's my favorite, by the way!! ;-)

What I meant, though, was that her front and rear angulation are balanced, but both steeper than the standard calls for.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I think Millie is lovely.

I made a comment about 'type' to a breeder and they corrected me saying if it looks like a poodle then it is a poodle. Bonnie is also lovely and like Millie, would not have succeeded in an AKC show ring. That doesn't make either one of them any less desireable of a poodle. Sometimes we, me included, get so caught up in meeting a breed standard that we forget that the ultimate goal is to produce a healthy, intelligent, wonderful temperamented pet. Even show dogs need to first be a dog you would want to live with and love. Some of them are only a pretty package. 

It bugs me that people think of show dogs as somehow better than the Millie's and Bonnie's in the world when oftentimes, I think the Millie's and Bonnie's can be superior in many ways.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Show dogs SHOULD be superior...they're the dogs that are meant to be bred to continue the breed (because they've been evaluated by judges according against the breed standard set forth by the breed club and deemed breeding worthy...the POINT of conformation showing)

The Millie's and Bonnie's are lovely pets and beautiful but that doesn't mean they should be bred...breeding takes ALOT of thought beyond numbers and I think it's better for dogs to end up as pets than breeding dogs. Not every dog is cut out
To be bred, and sometimes it's hard to accept that...speaking from experience but I just wish more people would accept that sooner rather than later


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We all know there have been plenty of diamonds in the rough who have gone one to produce fantastic quality offspring. We all have our opinion and they make just as much sense to us as the other guy's makes to him. This argument is like me and my ex arguing over who was better- The Beatles or Elvis Presley.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

the more i learn the more i learn. 

there are poodles out there that may not win the ring, but could bring some amazing qualities to breed improvement. maybe they have a great chest, but not a very refined face. or vice versa. or their tailset may be lower, but they have qualities that if they breed to someone with a great tailset that will help offset it ....

so don't toss the baby out with the bathwater just 'cause they can't win the ring. 

and one day, i hope parti poodles will be accepted into conformation in akc.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Me, too! 

If the cocker people can put a parti, a black, AND an ASCOB poodle in the *group ring,* for heaven's sake, I don't see why we can't have Partis. They are a legitimate part of the breed's history.

--Q


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Bibelot Cherod Tinsmith (Thinker) was in the ring twice in his life, once as exhibition only. He sired 30 litters of incredible quality silver Standards. For the most part they have longevity, there are field champions, conformation champions, obedience and rally titled dogs...his grandchildren have also gone on to excel in all of these areas. He re-produced himself like nothing I have ever seen in my life. What a blessing it has been for the world of silvers universally, that Susan Fraser and my Mother ( his breeders) did NOT throw the baby out with the bath water!

There are a lot of diamonds in the rough with superior testing results than many show dogs. Should we throw that out of the gene pool too?


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> Show dogs SHOULD be superior...they're the dogs that are meant to be bred to continue the breed (because they've been evaluated by judges according against the breed standard set forth by the breed club and deemed breeding worthy...the POINT of conformation showing)
> 
> The Millie's and Bonnie's are lovely pets and beautiful but that doesn't mean they should be bred...breeding takes ALOT of thought beyond numbers and I think it's better for dogs to end up as pets than breeding dogs. Not every dog is cut out
> To be bred, and sometimes it's hard to accept that...speaking from experience but I just wish more people would accept that sooner rather than later


Dear Keithsomething;

The *historical* purpose of the breed ring was to showcase breeding stock dog/bitches. With the top dog point system and/or grand champion titles the breed ring has changed from showcasing the best of the breed to showcasing *one or two types* of poodles. 

Too many breeders are showing for the most best in shows or the most group firsts not to prove breeding stock. If showing was still about proving breeding stock there would be *no need* for *dye, wiggies or hairspray*. I am not against showing and I will continue to pay a handler to show my dogs but I will not justify a breeding by championship status.

I am sure you are aware that a poodle in Canada only needs to win points under *three judges* with one two point win. In the states it is again only *three different judges*, and two five point majors. Neither of these numbers prove the poodle who *wins is superior* to any other type of poodle. You are just paying for three different opinions and these opinions are often swayed by handlers and/or magazine advertising.

Look back in the poodle magazines or use the internet to look at poodles from the 70's and 80's. Do you see the different body type(s)? That body type is *still correct* and to the standard but out of fashion today.
The pendulum will eventually swing back and heads will become heavier or more moderate angulation will come back into fashion just like bell bottoms.

In my opinion, (I have been in poodles, both breeding and showing, since 1993), both Millie and Bonnie can *provide something* the breed needs-*diversity*. Not just in bloodlines but in *characteristics* and *temperament* also. We need poodles to be all sizes and shapes as long as they are characteristically poodles. If money was not a problem both these dogs could be finished-even in the states - You just need to shop for your judges! 

I agree not all dogs are *cut out to be bred* - but you need to be aware that not all poodles who achieve a *championship*, or even a best in show, *should be bred*. Often/sometimes the top poodles have health problems that the owners/handlers are aware of but they medicate and continue to show and breed the dog/bitch anyway. *Experience* is something that is *gained with time*.

You have a good heart but seem to be easily swayed by others opinions rather than having an open mind.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

My new puppy is from a GrCh UKC dam with an incredible body and movement (fabulous front end), but not as nice a face and a sire without as nice a body (tad long in the loin and he was AKC Champion ), but with a very pretty face. Both had great health at older ages, wonderful temperaments, dam with excellent hips, sire with good. So, should Jazz' dam never been bred because she did not step into the AKC ring or because she lacked in the face? Surely you jest. 

They are hoardes of wonderful dogs that never step inside a show ring. Thank goodness some of them are bred or our gene pool would be even worse than it is. 

I started this thread because I thought it was kind of great what the UKC standard emphasized. I was also surprised that someone finally took a stand on a couple of the areas. I thought the poodle group would think it interesting whether they agreed with the changes or not. 

I know there will always be people that believe with all their heart the same way Keith does. I like differing opinions, but I also am going to back away from this because I just get my hackles up.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

faerie said:


> the more i learn the more i learn.
> 
> there are poodles out there that may not win the ring, but could bring some amazing qualities to breed improvement. maybe they have a great chest, but not a very refined face. or vice versa. or their tailset may be lower, but they have qualities that if they breed to someone with a great tailset that will help offset it ....
> 
> ...


I do agree. Mil's dam was not at all show quality, but was bred to a champion, and my heart dog is the result. Mil is not "showy", but she's not a terrible example of the breed at all. The first time my handler saw her, she said, "pretty bitch!!" And told me that she thought she was correct in many ways. 

The owner of Mil's sire is a longtime breeder of browns, active in PCA, and a well known judge. Because Mil's breeder was new to breeding, and because Mil's dam was not a champion, I spoke with the sire owner (judge!) before getting Mil to make sure it was a good choice. He flat out said about her dam, "Well, I wouldn't try and finish her, but she makes a good brood bitch." Why? She had good structure, a wonderful temperament, had favorable health tests, a genetically diverse pedigree.

This judge/breeder does tend to (or did tend to, I'm not sure at the moment) breed toward the older style.

I do not think that every person who breeds poodles out there needs to only breed champions, not at all, that is only one piece of the puzzle.


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