# Grain Free?



## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

I'm considering switching my minipoo to a grain free kibble and wet food. What are the best brands currently? I'm a little overwhelmed with the many options out there.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Why are you switching? Do you realize that "grain free" means that the grains have been replaced with some type of beans or peas, and that legumes can cause health problems for some dogs?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I'm also wondering why you are changing? Is your dog thriving on it's current food?

The concept of "grain free" is a "trend" similar to the grain free human food. There are some humans who have celiac disease, and some that have trouble digesting too much gluten (which are only in some grain, not all) and they should avoid gluten. But somehow the "grain free" became seen as healthier in the eyes of some consumers without any scientific merit. There has been something similar happening with dog food in parallel with the human - add in the China melamine pet food scandal which sicken and killed many pets. 

If you dog is truly allergic to wheat - avoid wheat and other "gluten" containing grains, but you don't have to avoid all grains such as rice which is often recommended for dogs to eat when they have digestive problems.

In my own dog's case - she's allergic to legumes which as extremely common, and are used to replace "grain" in the "grain free" foods - when I see that marketing term "grain-free" I avoid that food.

This is a good article about "grain-free" Can Dogs Eat Wheat And Other Grains? – American Kennel Club

If your dog isn't thriving on it's current food - you might have to do some sleuthing to figure out what the problem is, don't assume grain free will solve the problem - it might create new ones.


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

reraven123 said:


> Why are you switching? Do you realize that "grain free" means that the grains have been replaced with some type of beans or peas, and that legumes can cause health problems for some dogs?


I'm finding a few legume free options online such as Nature's Logic. I feed mine Purina One currently and have been reading about how corn is just a filler and can lead to weight gain. So I've been looking at other options with meat as the first four ingredients. He doesn't really like his dry food and unless I add wet food he won't really eat it. So something with rice instead of corn is better?


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Corn is not just "filler". It provides carbohydrates and a certain amount of protein, and is an easily sourced ingredient. My GSD has done worse on grain-free foods with potatoes as the main starch than she does on foods with corn in them.

This is a good read, written by a canine nutritionist. Dog Food Logic - Making Smart Decisions for Your Dog In An Age Of Too Many Choices

That said, the "best" food is one you dog does well on, likes to eat, and you can afford to feed. Since he doesn't seem to like the Purina One, it's not the best food for him. For my dogs, since my GSD seems to do best on fish-based kibble, that's what I tend to feed everyone. We just started on Blackwood's Salmon and Brown Rice all life stages formula, since I wanted to be able to feed all of them the same food.


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## Spottytoes (Jul 28, 2020)

I tried a very highly rated grain free food with Bobby last fall…absolute gastrointestinal disaster and I took it very slowly. I don’t think it had legumes but it was very rich in meat. I thought all the meat would be great for him. He could handle a little bit but once we were at where the majority of his meal was the grain free stuff his guts rebelled. We tried twice. It was definitely the food. Bobby does much better with healthy grains in his diet. Unfortunately, we are at a place where there are other issues and he’s on a new sensitive tummy food but that’s a different thread. The sensitive food has healthy grains and it definitely agrees with Bobby. Personally, I can’t imagine all the legumes they put in grain free are any better than your traditional healthy grains. Heck, too many or the wrong legumes wreck my guts! 😉
But, like people, each dog is different and what one dog thrives on another gets sick on. When it comes to food…what’s best for each particular dog is best. But I say, if current food works, stick with it. Don’t mess with what works! 😉


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> I'm finding a few legume free options online such as Nature's Logic. I feed mine Purina One currently and have been reading about how corn is just a filler and can lead to weight gain. So I've been looking at other options with meat as the first four ingredients. He doesn't really like his dry food and unless I add wet food he won't really eat it. So something with rice instead of corn is better?


Are you free feeding him (leaving the food out until he eats it), or do you have set meal times? Giving him set meal times might help.

It could be that he is still adjusting to his new living environment, and it could be that he doesn't like that food. I will add that I used to feed grain free kibble to my dogs, and I can't say they thrived on it. I now have them on Farmina, which is a high quality kibble. I also like Open Farm, but I can't get both of my dogs to eat it. My dogs tried Nature's Logic in the past, but it wasn't the best option for them.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Peggy’s diet consists of three different brands and formulas, two of which are grain-free:

*Farmina* N&D Ancestral Grain Chicken & Pomegranate Medium & Maxi Adult Dry Dog Food (low-glycemic, contains no whole peas, legumes, meals or by-products; _free-fed_)

*Weruva* Paw Lickin' Chicken in Gravy Grain-Free Canned Dog Food (high quality protein, minimal carbs, and a high moisture content; gluten-free and contains no carrageenan; _served at breakfast and dinner_)

*The Honest Kitchen* Grain-Free Beef Whole Food Clusters Dry Dog Food (human grade; free of by-products, rendered meals, grains, artificial colors or flavors; _hand-fed__ throughout the day like a treat; gets a quarter cup in her crate at bedtime_)


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

Dogs4Life said:


> Are you free feeding him (leaving the food out until he eats it), or do you have set meal times? Giving him set meal times might help.
> 
> It could be that he is still adjusting to his new living environment, and it could be that he doesn't like that food. I will add that I used to feed grain free kibble to my dogs, and I can't say they thrived on it. I now have them on Farmina, which is a high quality kibble. I also like Open Farm, but I can't get both of my dogs to eat it. My dogs tried Nature's Logic in the past, but it wasn't the best option for them.


I feed him morning and evening and just leave it until he eats it. If I don't add wet food the dry usually sits until evening. I don't give him treats if he still has food in his bowl either. So you're suggesting feeding him then after 20 min or so taking up the food? I've been looking at Farmina, seems to be very highly rated.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What I learned works best for Peggy (a standard poodle) is to keep the wet and dry foods separate. This way I don’t contaminate the dry food and have to toss it, untouched, after 30 minutes if she’s not hungry.

I serve a small helping of wet food for breakfast and dinner, which she almost always eats. I like this routine especially if we’re headed out for the day or engaging in an activity that could trigger vomiting on an empty stomach. It ensures she’s got a little something in there. It also often stimulates her appetite for kibble.

Farmina is served on a separate plate for breakfast, and then left out for free-feeding, topped up as necessary in quarter cup increments. Some days she eats a cup or more. Other days just a half. Some days she doesn’t eat any. I respect her ability to self-regulate and am happy to accommodate it.


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

TeamHellhound said:


> Corn is not just "filler". It provides carbohydrates and a certain amount of protein, and is an easily sourced ingredient. My GSD has done worse on grain-free foods with potatoes as the main starch than she does on foods with corn in them.
> 
> This is a good read, written by a canine nutritionist. Dog Food Logic - Making Smart Decisions for Your Dog In An Age Of Too Many Choices
> 
> That said, the "best" food is one you dog does well on, likes to eat, and you can afford to feed. Since he doesn't seem to like the Purina One, it's not the best food for him. For my dogs, since my GSD seems to do best on fish-based kibble, that's what I tend to feed everyone. We just started on Blackwood's Salmon and Brown Rice all life stages formula, since I wanted to be able to feed all of them the same food.


Thank you for this info!


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

Is this a puppy? My vet is not a fan of grain free. I am guessing it has to do with the link to heart issues.








Study: Grain-Free Diet for Dogs Leads to Canine Heart Disease


Study: Popular grain-free, legume-rich dog diets cause a nutritional deficiency and canine heart disease known as taurine-deficient dilated cardiomyopathy.




todaysveterinarypractice.com





Have you tried other foods? My standard poodle was a runt. The food the breeder said to use was too big and too hard for him to eat. I had to get Royal Canin poodle puppy food. It is only meant for toy and mini poodles, but he was really small. Then he got bigger and we went to Royal Canin small puppy, and finally mad it to the medium puppy. Even the medium puppy food isn't as hard or as big as the stuff the breeder said to use. My other dog wouldn't even touch it the puppy food the breeder said to use.


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

I_love_dogs said:


> Is this a puppy? My vet is not a fan of grain free. I am guessing it has to do with the link to heart issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's 2 and about 12 lbs.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Some dogs do fantastically on grain free food. Others do poorly. One previous dog thrived on a grain free that's way too rich for my current poodle and did very poorly on Royal Canin, Proplan and a few other grain based foods. My current girl seems to need high fibre. 

Keep in mind that poodles are known for being picky and managing their weight, so a little less appetite some days isn't anything abnormal. 

My suggestions would be to perhaps try another kibble (another flavour?) And also try buying kibble in smaller bags, or storing excess in an airtight container. Kibble can go rancid pretty quickly when exposed to light and air and some dogs are picky. There are sample bags you can buy. I use other brands of kibblr as training treats - maybe try a few and see if he prefers one food. Then stick with it. 

You could also try to find a small breed formula. They tend to have smaller kibble pieces and a lot of small breed dogs prefer them.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

My Pia has severe food intolerances, and currently is thriving on Health Extension Grain free White Fish and Buffalo, I tried a lot of different food, freeze dried raw, home cooked and finally settled on this kibble.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> I feed him morning and evening and just leave it until he eats it. If I don't add wet food the dry usually sits until evening. I don't give him treats if he still has food in his bowl either. So you're suggesting feeding him then after 20 min or so taking up the food? I've been looking at Farmina, seems to be very highly rated.


When I was free feeding my rescue girl Miracle, she pretty much waited until I got home to eat. When I started eating my dinner is when she wanted to eat. She does much better now with scheduled meal times, but in my case I had to switch to scheduled meals.

I feed the grain inclusive Farmina. My dogs have eaten the lamb, cod, and chicken varieties. Both of my dogs went from being pickier eaters to wanting to eat their food when I switched. Even Jasper, who no longer has any teeth, prefers eating the wet kibble to canned food!


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Some dogs do fantastically on grain free food. Others do poorly. One previous dog thrived on a grain free that's way too rich for my current poodle and did very poorly on Royal Canin, Proplan and a few other grain based foods. My current girl seems to need high fibre.
> 
> Keep in mind that poodles are known for being picky and managing their weight, so a little less appetite some days isn't anything abnormal.
> 
> ...


Thanks I am feeding him a small breed formula and store it in an air tight container. When he gets about halfway through the bag I might try another flavor. Thanks!


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> Thanks I am feeding him a small breed formula and store it in an air tight container. When he gets about halfway through the bag I might try another flavor. Thanks!


*So I can mix it and transition


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> I'm finding a few legume free options online such as Nature's Logic. I feed mine Purina One currently and have been reading about how corn is just a filler and can lead to weight gain. So I've been looking at other options with meat as the first four ingredients. He doesn't really like his dry food and unless I add wet food he won't really eat it. So something with rice instead of corn is better?


I have fed Purina for over 50 years. In all that time I have only had one dog who had issues - he was a mixed breed (border collie/whippet). He did well on Purina's Sensitive Skin and Stomach variety. Currently our three dogs (a Labrador retriever, a Chihuahua, and a miniature poodle) all get Purina One Grain Free with a tablespoon of meat on top. Beef is the first ingredient listed for Purina One, corn is not listed at all as an ingredient (makes sense - it grain-free!). Regarding corn - some dogs do well on it, some don't.


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

Johanna said:


> I have fed Purina for over 50 years. In all that time I have only had one dog who had issues - he was a mixed breed (border collie/whippet). He did well on Purina's Sensitive Skin and Stomach variety. Currently our three dogs (a Labrador retriever, a Chihuahua, and a miniature poodle) all get Purina One Grain Free with a tablespoon of meat on top. Beef is the first ingredient listed for Purina One, corn is not listed at all as an ingredient (makes sense - it grain-free!). Regarding corn - some dogs do well on it, some don't.


Yes I've always trusted Purina for my cats I previously owned and currently own so I just felt like it was the way to go for our poodle.


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## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> Thanks I am feeding him a small breed formula and store it in an air tight container. When he gets about halfway through the bag I might try another flavor. Thanks!


Are you taking it out of the bag and putting it in a plastic container? I don't do that because I had a dog that would refuse to eat the food stored in plastic. These were containers that were supposed to be for pet food.


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

I_love_dogs said:


> Are you taking it out of the bag and putting it in a plastic container? I don't do that because I had a dog that would refuse to eat the food stored in plastic. These were containers that were supposed to be for pet food.


I did pour it in a container that's made to put the whole bag in. I didn't even think about that! I just poured it in bc my kids like to help feed him. I use a little scoop.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Oft repeated here but you will get about as many brand name suggestions as members responding. There are a lot of foods to choose from!  It's finding foods that are nutritionally balanced (not hard) and that your dog likes (trickier for some) that will make you all happy.

Riffing on several others above...

Balanced diet isn't just having a range of ingredients, it's also a proper combination of nutrients and how those ingredients mix with each other to provide proper nutrition.

Here's some resources to help you determine whether a food will be nutritious and healthy for your poodle. A food doesn't need to be expensive to be very good so don't let that be too big a criteria. After you find a couple to try, your poodle will likely have the final say .

About ingredient lists:

*Why you shouldn’t judge a pet food by its ingredient list*
Although ingredient lists are commonly used by pet owners and most pet food rating sites to determine the quality of pet foods, this approach has many pitfalls and usually is not a good way to select a food.
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Some tips on deciphering dog food labels from:*
Best Dog Food: How to Know What's Right for Your Dog (akc.org)
How to Read a Dog Food Label – American Kennel Club
Your best tool for deciding what to feed your dog is right on the can or bag. But first, you need to know how to read a dog food label.
www.akc.org www.akc.org

Pet Food Labels - General | FDA
Animal Food & Feeds | FDA
Pet Food Labels
The pet food label contains a wealth of information, if one knows how to read it.
www.fda.gov www.fda.gov


*It's Not Just Grain Free

It’s Not Just Grain-Free: An Update on Diet-Associated Dilated Cardiomyopathy*
Dr. Freeman provides an update on diet-associated dilated cardiomyopathy in dogs
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Questions You Should Be Asking

Questions You Should Be Asking About Your Pet’s Food*
How can you tell about the quality and nutritional expertise of a pet food company? Here are some questions savvy owners should ask companies to select the best possible food for their pets.
vetnutrition.tufts.edu

*Selecting The Best Food - World Small Animal Veterinary Association*
https://wsava.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Selecting-the-Best-Food-for-your-Pet.pdf

*AAFCO - Association of American Feed Control Officials
The Role of AAFCO in Pet Food Regulation*

talkspetfood.aafco.org

I wouldn't rule a company out automatically because they have a large advertising budget. That kind of company can probably afford to have veterinary nutritionists on staff to formulate the various foods for various sizes, special needs, and stages.

If you prefer to stick with smaller manufacturers rather than big name companies, remember to look for the AAFCO label on the food, and something I knew to research on appliances but didn't think of doing for dog food til another recent thread. Search for "Who makes *___* dog food?". You might get some surprises, Some familiar names seem to have been traded around like major league athletes for some years now. 

Look for the AAFCO label or stamp on any food. FDA and local and state agencies all play a role in regulating pet food and participate in the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO)External Link Disclaimer. While AAFCO itself has no regulatory authority, this voluntary association of local, state, and federal feed control officials works to:


Safeguard the health of animals and people;
Ensure consumer protection; and
Provide a level playing field of orderly commerce for the animal feed industry.


*Food for thought*

“My primary recommendation would be to look at nutrients rather than ingredients in foods,” says Wortinger*. “The body does not care if the meat is chicken, beef, or reindeer; what it cares about is the amino acids included in the food. The body does not care whether the fat is animal or plant-based, but whether all the essential fatty acids are present. Look at nutrients, not marketing,” she says.

“As with any grain, when higher levels are included in the diet, protein digestibility can go down. That is why there are no ‘all grain’ diets for dogs or cats,” she says. “As a grain, it has a biologic value [a measure of the amount of essential amino acids in a food] of 74; muscle meats, such as beef and chicken, have a BV of about 75. Egg is the gold standard for BV at 100, with whey and casein [milk proteins] just below that.

“When corn is combined with other plant products, they together can easily reach a BV of 100. All plants, due to their cellulose layers, have decreased digestibility when compared to meats. But when ground and cooked, so that the cellulose layer is broken, digestibility is comparable,” Wortinger noted.

*Ann Wortinger BIS, LVT, VTS (ECC, SAIM, Nutrition). She is a veterinary nutritionist who has worked in the field for more than 20 years and is currently the hospital administrator for Animal Cancer and Imaging Center in Canton, Mich.

Jennifer Larsen, DVM, PhD, DACVN, is an associate professor of clinical nutrition at the Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital (VMTH) at the University of California, Davis. She also does clinical nutritional consulting through the VMTH Nutrition Support Service. She says, “Grains, and any other single category or individual ingredients, are neither good nor bad.

“Rather, what is important is how the ingredients work together to create the full nutritional profile of the diet. Likewise, carbohydrates, as an energy source, are utilized by the body the same way regardless of source, such as grain, legume, or tubers, and different sources of carbohydrates also bring other nutrients, such as fiber, fatty acids, and amino acids. Again, no ingredient has a simple effect since each provides multiple nutrients, and it’s not consumed in a vacuum.”

“It’s important to think of food in terms of energy; animals need energy to live,” says Robert Backus, DVM, PhD, DACVN; he is associate professor and director of the Nestle-Purina Endowed Small Animal Nutrition Program at the University of Missouri. “That energy comes from protein, fats, and carbohydrates. The question is creating the most efficient mix. You could do that with all protein, but the animal would then burn protein for energy, which is inefficient.”

Rebecca Remillard, PhD, DVM, DACVN
*Myth #3:* One can evaluate the ‘quality’ of a pet food by reading the ingredient list.

Remillard says, “Despite aggressive marketing campaigns by various manufacturers and self-appointed websites, the ingredient list according to AAFCO [the Association of American Feed Control Officials] should not impart any information regarding the quality, nutritional balance, or digestibility of the pet food product.

“The ingredient list was simply not designed, or is not regulated, as a measure of pet food quality. So the source of meat or carbohydrates in a pet food is not important to the nutritional profile in a complete and balanced product,” she notes.

*Myth #4:* Corn/grains are non-nutritive ‘fillers.’


Whole grains contribute more fiber and vitamins while ground grains are more digestible and provide more protein. Which is chosen will depend on what other ingredients are contained in the food.

“I've heard concerns about them [grains] being ‘filler,’ which is nonsense,” Larsen says. “They are added because they contribute energy and other essential nutrients, as well as very useful dietary components, such as fiber, which is an underappreciated nutrient.”

Cline similarly relates that corn and other grains can be part of a nutritious pet diet: “Depending on how grains are processed, they can be highly digestible. Some grains contribute dietary fiber to pet foods, which can play an important role in intestinal health.

“Although fiber is not a required nutrient, I find that it can be very beneficial in optimizing the stool quality and the overall health of my patients. Grain-free diets can provide optimal nutrition for cat and dogs, however diets containing grain can do the same.”

Source Busting Myths, Corn and Grain - Best Friends Veterinary Center


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> *So I can mix it and transition


Any time you transition, be sure to review the information, usually on the bag, on how to transition. 

Some poodles and owners do what's called rotational feeding. This can be done several ways. Your dog's digestive tolerance will be a guide.


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## babyscout (Feb 28, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I'm also wondering why you are changing? Is your dog thriving on it's current food?
> 
> The concept of "grain free" is a "trend" similar to the grain free human food. There are some humans who have celiac disease, and some that have trouble digesting too much gluten (which are only in some grain, not all) and they should avoid gluten. But somehow the "grain free" became seen as healthier in the eyes of some consumers without any scientific merit. There has been something similar happening with dog food in parallel with the human - add in the China melamine pet food scandal which sicken and killed many pets.
> 
> ...


I think China adds things to pass protein content testing (they did it to baby food too) and their additives pass the test but hurt the pets and babies. So I think often this isn’t for health reasons they were adding certain things.

I would personally never feed my dogs anything from China 😐


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## ShopGirlNY152 (Jul 4, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> Oft repeated here but you will get about as many brand name suggestions as members responding. There are a lot of foods to choose from!  It's finding foods that are nutritionally balanced (not hard) and that your dog likes (trickier for some) that will make you all happy.
> 
> Riffing on several others above...
> 
> ...


Wow thank you!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ShopGirlNY152 said:


> Wow thank you!


I updated two links to go to the right pages, the AKC link above the description, and the two FDA links above the description.

The links now go directly to the info.


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