# Thoughts on breeder



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I am not sure I get the comments on testing especially when referring to Addisons testing ?? Proof is in the documentation.

Also - I am wondering about her red breeding she is planning.....


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't know anything about the breeder, but Olie I've seen puppies out of white x red combos and they're gorgeous! I was told that the point of bring black or white in is to get the conformation that the reds are lacking...with white x red what I've seen is a dark apricot to a light cream (colour variation in the litter), but as you can see from Tabathas litter...you don't retain much more colour out of a black/blue x red breeding (though the apricot does seem to be a bit darker)

So if I had a red bitch, and the studs available to me were white and they were superb I'd use them...I'd prefer black but just from my observations of litters (and dogs that I have seen in person) the pups from white x reds are gorgeous 

seeing as I don't know this breeder or her practices if she bred to a nice white, as I've seen done, she will get some fantastic pups out of this breeding


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Keith - do you have an example? I'd like to see it. I don't know that I seen Tabathas litter........I'm out of touch a bit


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

oh I wasn't saying that Tabatha's puppies are bad...or have bad colouring, and if it was seen that way...just know it wasn't meant in that context

and I have several examples Terry Farley one of the newest members here on this forum (and THE red breeder in the world) is the one who told me that, and his dogs are the ones I was referring to.

Tru
is a gorgeous boy with a nice even apricot colour, out of a red mother and a white father

then he has several puppies right now that will be entering the ring or have just finished from similar litters, and all the puppies/dogs that I have seen of his (and similar breeders doing the same thing) are stunning

There seems to be this stigma that breeding a red to a white is a bad thing...but from what I HAVE SEEN (take that as you will) the puppies that are of colour out of a black x red litter are not much darker than puppies out of white x red litters and if bred BACK to red and apricot would only produce darker puppies than themselves...but this is just what I have seen from someone breeding reds for twenty years


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## Tucker57 (Nov 20, 2010)

Interesting comments so far - thanks. I was actually thinking I would steer clear of the reds anyway (if I really wanted to go that route, I would probably contact some of the established red breeders). It turns out the the boys shown on the site that are still available are much older than their photos, and I'm pretty sure I want a young pup the next time around (between 8-12 weeks), so I'm not looking to get one of her pups any time soon.

I've been doing a lot of searches in the forum archive for breeders, and so many of the ones that seem like the best would involve shipping the puppy. I'd love to avoid that, but it may not be possible. Mount Bethel is not too far from me, and she seems to do a lot of the testing everyone talks about. It was awkward getting at the info, but she has it posted for many of her breeding dogs.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Have you tried Unique? Or maybe no the color you like - very beautiful dogs. I know tinlet has some puppies now but she is in NC. Great dogs. I am getting my puppy in August/September from a breeder in Canada. I never wanted to go that route either but once you find a breeder you like, its hard to go elsewhere.


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## Tucker57 (Nov 20, 2010)

The parents of Gloria's puppies are stunning! The timing on that litter would be almost perfect for me, so I may email her to see if there are any still available. I go back and forth on whether I could deal with a white/cream dog....the pictures I see on the forum make me want one, but I'm not sure I could keep it looking decent with all the dirt I have in my yard! I may email them too, though. Thanks!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I have a silver from Gloria, Suri the most loving dog and very eager to please. Loves her sports - spelled her kennel name wrong. Tintlet.

For anyone that loves partis Baley looks pretty special.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I don't know where you're at in PA but I know A TON of amazing breeders from that state!!!

Whisperwind, Farleys D, Personality, Retniw (Retniw and Farleys D breed primarily red and apricot, but they do have some creams and blacks once in awhile) 
then here in Ohio theres Dassin, and Boxwood both awesome breeders!

I know Terry has been so helpful with me, and I'm sure he could give you a reference for a breeder that might be in your area

and I agree with Olie, Gloria has nice dogs and shes VERY friendly (my biggest thing with a breeder I speak to!!!)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> oh I wasn't saying that Tabatha's puppies are bad...or have bad colouring, and if it was seen that way...just know it wasn't meant in that context
> 
> and I have several examples Terry Farley one of the newest members here on this forum (and THE red breeder in the world) is the one who told me that, and his dogs are the ones I was referring to.
> 
> ...


Carolyn Carroll at Mithril told me that red to white periodically is a good plan because you get apricots the rich yellow/orange of a mixed fruit drink.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

and if it brings in the much needed conformation that reds need...why not try it? I think the experimentation is the most alluring thing about breeding for me XD

I think it would be cool to compare a black x red/apricot litter to a white x red/apricot litter, just to see what colour difference there are between the litters and what conformation differences there may be


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Over the past twenty some years I have bred apricot and red to black, blue and cream/white. My very first two breeding were apricot to black male (one was registered black but was a blue) In the first breeding I had 6 black 1 red/apricot. The black sire was out of apricot black breeding. The second breeding was a black/blue male out of a strictly black white pedigree, I had 4 black 3 light apricot. A black bitch out of the first breeding was the dam to the second red standard male champion in the US. One of the black males from the second breeding was the sire to the first red standard female champion in the US and the first red to place at PCA. 

For a long time I was told not to mix colors at all, IF I did to use a black, not a white, and never a silver. Finally I tired White to a red bitch. My girl Ivy is a beautiful medium apricot from this breeding. Next I bred Ivy's half sister,Luna (red apricot breeding) to a white/cream Whisperwind boy, Tru is out of that breeding. I then bred a red girl to a Boxwood cream male, got an apricot girl ZeeZee and a cream/apricot male, Moose now being called Celtic. I also bred the Boxwood male to Ivy and have a medium apricot girl Be Be. 
I have been very fortunate to have bred some beautiful puppy's over the years, mixing color. 

My prospective litter, just bred almost three weeks ago, is an apricot bitch bred to one of my red males. In this case the prospective puppy's will have, on Willows' side, two white great grand sires, and on the males side, a black grand sire. wish me luck!

Terry


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Terry I'm glad you weighed in!!
Having seen ZeeZee and Moose I can atest to the fact that they're both gorgeous dogs  as is Beebee and Willow, I can't wait to see that litter of puppies I'm sure you'll get some great things from them ^_^

It makes me wonder though...what is the taboo that surrounds the white? Just from what I've seen of your dogs you don't seem to loose anymore colour than someone breeding to black or blue, so I wonder where the "DON'T BREED TO WHITE" came around


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## farleysd (Apr 18, 2011)

Hey Keith:
When mixing color you need to be careful to check out pedigrees in detail, make sure that there isn't any silver close in the pedigree, if at all. Next you need to look at the white parents get, are they born white and stay white, good. Are they born cream and stay cream,, good. Are they born cream and clear to a white, not so good. Has the white parent produced silver, not good at all. 

When breeding color you need to avoid the fading factor. Once you pick it up it is very difficult to escape from if at all possible. Some white has been known to carry a gene that wrecks the red orange tones in apricots producing a yellow puppy.

This is why white has been such a taboo for color breeding.

Terry


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

There is a new study to be released that addresses many of the to date what- -we-thought-to -be-trues - of fading and graying. It is also supposed to address markers on the ee that affect the change from white to red.

Many red pet breeders had a stroke that I was breeding to blue. But the conformation is all that I had hoped to achieve and the color is gorgeous. One of the girls is Annie's color (sadly she is not one of the picks).

It will be be interesting to see what color the apricot male I am keeping becomes/stays and what color he produces in the future.

For Annie's breeding I'll breed to black. Not because I question a white x red breeding, but because I love black standards (more than whites even - I'm a color snob! ha) and am focused first - above color- on what conformation needs to be brought into my line - while keeping everyone as healthy as possible by staying away from genetic problems.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Is that "B" in the photo on the bottom right? Was she from red to red parents? How old is she? She has faded considerably, so red to red does not always keep the colour strong anyway, so we may as well make improvements as we can by bringing in other colours to help with conformation. I think it is a necessity unless we are just looking to keep all the same issues alive in the reds.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

That's Annie in the snow. Annie is quite a bit lighter than she was as a pup - but she has always been a lighter orangey red.


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