# Spaying Early, Bigger Dog?



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

TGBTG7701 said:


> My wife read that if you spay a standard at a young age, it will make her grow larger than she should be. She read that there legs will grow longer than normal and body would also grow more than normal. Is there any truth to this? I planed to spay after 1 year to 1 1/2, but reading some post makes me worried about having it done.
> 
> Thanks, Keith


This is true of males, not females. Neutering a male early changes their testosterone production and levels, thus making them develop a smaller bone structure and a smaller muscle mass. I won't neuter a male before 1 1/2 years old again. Did it once and ended up with a tall, slim and under muscular type dog. 

There are other disadvantages to spaying esrly in females, but I'll let others respond to that, I am no expert.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I think that your wife is correct, also early spaying can lead to incontinence (so prevalent that they actually call it spay incontinence).
My three year old girl is the first one that I have waited to spay until after having a first heat, and the development in her body after her heat was remarkable. She has muscles like I have never seen in a small dog before, and the vulva, well that morphed into an entirely different organ - it is plain to see why not allowing that development to occur could lead to incontinence! And her breeder says that she can tell just by looking at her face that she was allowed to have the hormones that nature intended - she says that the planes of the face do not ever smooth out without those hormones.
I am very glad that I did it that way, and won't ever trap my dog in an a puppy body by removing their hormones before they are fully developed again! I currently have a 9 month old puppy an she will not be spayed until 3 months after her first heat either.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

There is evidence that spaying or neutering early, especially large and giant breeds, results in a taller dog that is less filled out. The sex hormones are not there to tell the growth plates when to close, so the long bones in the legs continue to grow, which results in a taller dog often with inappropriate joint angles, which also places them at increased risk for things like CCL tears. I'm on a few Dane forums and pages and you can often tell which ones were spayed and neutered too young - they're very tall and spindly, they never really fill out. 

I did not spay my Dane bitch until she was over 2 1/2. But Danes grow longer than poodles, and 18 months should be plenty long enough to get good growth in a standard poodle, so I would not be worried about spaying at that age at all. My goal for all of my dogs is to either leave them intact or spay/neuter after age two, but there are many things to consider, so you need to do what works for you as well as what is best for your dog.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

For a female standard, my opinion is that the ideal age is after the first heat *and* after the dog is fully grown (so minimum of 15 mos.). For a male standard, 18 mos. I'm already planning my boy's neuter/gastropexy for one year from now.


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I wonder if that's why Tonka is so light and lanky...

Cutting the hormones off too early will also slow the knitting of growth plates in the shoulders and hips. A year and a half before spaying allows these to close up properly and naturally.


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## Jamork (May 3, 2016)

This subject is very timely for me. My girl is 6 months old and I am being pressured on a number of sides to have her spayed very soon.

My breeder said 1 yr. to 18 months because they 'need the hormones' but didn't elaborate and I frankly didn't ask any follow-up questions as to why. At the time I just thought we'd take her advice and wait until she was at least a year.

However, now DH doesn't want her to go into heat before having her spayed because of his perception of how messy it will be as well as how it will effect her emotionally. 

We have had several situations with males being quite sexually aggressive with her at the dog park which is unnerving, especially since she isn't in season. In fact, many females are aggressive with her in play as well. I'm not sure if this is because she is so playful and engaging (or they are bullies) or if she is emitting some kind of scent they are reacting to.

My vet and several others around town say now is a good time and that there will be no harm done.

We had our previous Spoo spayed at approx. 6 months and don't recall it being an issue nor did we notice anything unusual in regards to her growth or overall health.

Also, I'd like to put her into doggie daycare for a 2 half days/week with a very trusted and experienced friend. However, she won't take any unaltered dogs over 6 months of age.

So I'm confused and conflicted about when would be appropriate from a health standpoint. I definitely want to do the right thing but don't totally understand all the adverse health implications by spaying early.

So I'm asking for your thoughts, experiences and expertise on the whys and why nots of spaying at the age of 6-7 months.

Sorry this has turned into a 'book' but I know there are many knowledgeable people on the forum who can help me make a confident decision with the peace of mind I seek.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

I have a female Spoo, Poppy, who is just one year old. I will be spaying her soon, although I had originally intended to wait until after her first heat cycle. She has not grown at all over the last 3 months....not an ounce, nor in height either. She is quite filled out and very muscular. She has a couple of other minor things which need to be corrected, surgically, and I and her Vet do not want to wait much longer to deal with that, so we will spay at the time of the other minor surgery. 

My last Spoo, Iris was also spayed at just over a year of age and was completely developed and did not grow extra tall and spindly.

My previous dog was spayed at 9 months and that, 25 years ago, was considered late for spaying. I would never do that again. 

Now that there is more research to support spaying and neutering at a later age than used to be recommended I would certainly not do it any younger than a year and would encourage people to wait longer if possible.

I think some veterinarians just don't stay up with some of the new recommendations and newer research and still advocate for very young spays and neuters.

Just my two cents here.

Viking Queen


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Jamork said:


> This subject is very timely for me. My girl is 6 months old and I am being pressured on a number of sides to have her spayed very soon.
> 
> My breeder said 1 yr. to 18 months because they 'need the hormones' but didn't elaborate and I frankly didn't ask any follow-up questions as to why. At the time I just thought we'd take her advice and wait until she was at least a year.
> 
> ...


Here is one bit of information for you to read....there is a lot of stuff out there on the internet for you to research. This article is a good beginning.

Spay Neuter And Joint Disease

Best of luck with your decision.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jamork said:


> This subject is very timely for me. My girl is 6 months old and I am being pressured on a number of sides to have her spayed very soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My three year old came into her first season at 15 months, and boys at the park did start bothering her a few weeks before, but at six months, no way - if dogs are being aggressive with her or humping her it had nothing to do with hormones - there is something in her behavior that is making them pick on her and spaying won't change it.
As for reasons to allow a heat before spaying -
1) spaying before a heat has a 20 percent increased chance of incontinence. Wouldn't it duck to have a dog who leaked urine when they were sleeping?
2) spaying before a heat before the growth plates have closed increases the risk of ill fitting joints. Hip dysplasia is a common problem in Spoo's - do you really want to increase the chances of it happening to her even further?
3) You will see remarkable muscle development after the heat.
4) who knows what parts of the body that we cannot see and measure are impacted by removing the hormones that nature intended for them to have while they are growing? When they get older and things start to go wrong, do you want to have to wonder if maybe her heart would have been stronger, maybe her liver would have worked better, maybe her pancreas would not have failed etc if her development had not been thwarted by removing her hormones so early?


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## Jamork (May 3, 2016)

Thanks Viking Queen & Tiny Poodles for your answers.

Ember is very playful around other dogs and I do believe her behavior is probably causing all the aggressive attention she is getting. 

I think I've read enough at this point to stand my ground with regards to not getting her spayed until she is at least a year old. My husband isn't happy about it and says that I'll be responsible for cleaning up after her when she comes into season. 

It's disappointing to me that so many professionals, (vets & daycare facilities especially) are so insistent that pets are spayed as young as possible. I haven't talked to one yet who hasn't recommended it be done as early as possible. 

Can someone please tell what I can expect when she does come into season? It's been a very long time since I've had that experience and frankly don't remember it being that big of a deal - or that messy!


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## Mysticrealm (Jan 31, 2016)

just get her a pair of 'panties' for when she comes into heat.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jamork said:


> Thanks Viking Queen & Tiny Poodles for your answers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well I have tiny toys so no comparison in the amount of blood, but really it was just a few dime sized spots of blood on a pad in the panties. The bleeding part was maybe ten days total, five of them heavier. It took another few weeks for her vulva to return to normal size. Oddly for my girl it took a good couple of months for her to stop not wanting boys to go near her Maybe her body thought I need to be careful, I might have puppies, I don't know, but all together it was about 3 1/2 months away from the dog park so I knew that I did not want to do it a second time. But I think I waited a little too long for her body to return to normal for the spay, she was done right before 4 months after the heat started and the surgeon said that she was just about to come in again, so with the next one I will make sure to do it by 2-3 months.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

I've only had Toy Poodles, but the last time I had to make this decision was in 1999 and 2000. I had Trina spayed at 6.5 months. She had her first seizure at age 4 months, and by the age of 5 months, she was diagnosed with Ideopathic Seizure Disorder, and our vet highly recommended to spay before she went into heat. Because of her medical and mental condition, we decided to go ahead. With Kaydee, it was 8 months. However, since then, I'll learned from sites like this, and doing my own research, that it's healthier for the dog to wait until at least a year old, or even a little longer.

So I would say to wait. Don't do it just because your husband says so. Instead, print out several medical articles, and ask your husband to please read them. Hopefully he will change his mind and agree with you to wait.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Jamork said:


> It's disappointing to me that so many professionals, (vets & daycare facilities especially) are so insistent that pets are spayed as young as possible. I haven't talked to one yet who hasn't recommended it be done as early as possible.
> 
> !


I felt really angry about that when Maizie was a puppy, but then I thought about all those irresponsible people out there who would breed their dogs (accidentally or intentionally) if we didn't have that rule everywhere. I have to wait a whole other year for Frosty to be able to go to daycare and whatnot and by then he won't need it. But I do feel it's worth the wait


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Cherie Perks of Arreau Standard Poodles is a highly respected breeder of standard poodles and a member here on the forum.

She has a youtube tutorial for using men's briefs as panties for girls in heat. I know if Poppy comes into heat before I get her spayed, I will use this method to minimize the mess.






I think for me, the worst part would be having to keep Poppy out of the dog park for weeks. It is her favorite place to go and she can really burn off energy while there.

Remember, many, if not most, female Spoos do not come into heat before their first birthday, it can happen, but odds are in your favor.

Good luck. Cathy and Poppy


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## shell (Jul 10, 2015)

Jamork said:


> This subject is very timely for me. My girl is 6 months old and I am being pressured on a number of sides to have her spayed very soon.
> 
> My breeder said 1 yr. to 18 months because they 'need the hormones' but didn't elaborate and I frankly didn't ask any follow-up questions as to why. At the time I just thought we'd take her advice and wait until she was at least a year.
> 
> ...


PLEASE be careful going to the dog park. My girl came into heat at 8 months and I was not expecting it at all! I do recommend buying the panties for her if you are going to wait because it can get messy. Addison was constantly trying to keep herself clean but she still got blood everywhere if we didn't put something on her.

She had no personality changes at all from the experience. Sure, she was a little uncomfortable and slept more, but I get a little uncomfortable and sleep more at that time too-it still doesn't change my personality. I really think its good to wait if you can-but it's up to you and what your household can manage.


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## Jamork (May 3, 2016)

Yes, Zooeysmom, I totally agree with you about how irresponsible so many people are about letting their dogs breed haphazardly. But isn't that the way with so many other things? The irresponsible acts of a few effect us all. Unfortunate, but it's been that way for a long time & I don't see it getting any better.

I'm sure that is the main driver behind vets and daycare recommendations and rules. And on top of that, the government keeps tightening regulations regarding vaccines. Here in Boulder County, CO they are getting ready to change the age for required rabies vaccines from 16 to 12 weeks! At least that is what my vet told me.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Jamork said:


> Yes, Zooeysmom, I totally agree with you about how irresponsible so many people are about letting their dogs breed haphazardly. But isn't that the way with so many other things? The irresponsible acts of a few effect us all. Unfortunate, but it's been that way for a long time & I don't see it getting any better.
> 
> I'm sure that is the main driver behind vets and daycare recommendations and rules. And on top of that, the government keeps tightening regulations regarding vaccines. *Here in Boulder County, CO they are getting ready to change the age for required rabies vaccines from 16 to 12 weeks! At least that is what my vet told me*.


Well that is just insane. So sick of the government regulating everything without being educated :angry:


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

zooeysmom said:


> Well that is just insane. So sick of the government regulating everything without being educated :angry:


The law has been 12 weeks in Indiana for a long time


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Jamork said:


> Yes, Zooeysmom, I totally agree with you about how irresponsible so many people are about letting their dogs breed haphazardly. But isn't that the way with so many other things? The irresponsible acts of a few effect us all. Unfortunate, but it's been that way for a long time & I don't see it getting any better.
> 
> I'm sure that is the main driver behind vets and daycare recommendations and rules. And on top of that, the government keeps tightening regulations regarding vaccines. Here in Boulder County, CO they are getting ready to change the age for required rabies vaccines from 16 to 12 weeks! At least that is what my vet told me.


Well, that 's just nuts of Boulder County to do that. I thought Rabies requirements were a state wide thing, not county by county. But then, of course, this is "the Peoples' Republic of Boulder", as it is affectionately known in Colorado. They are so very fond of over regulating everything in Boulder. I would be ranting and raving to the county commissioners about this and going armed with facts about why this is unnecessary and dangerous to the dogs. Maybe some Dr. Jean Dodd's research would help their thinking. 

Sorry for the rant. I am also sorry you are having to deal with this possible change. Cathy

Here is something you could send to the county commissioners, or to the health department or to whomever it is that is pushing this change.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/29/early-rabies-vaccination.aspx


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## emisdover (Feb 16, 2017)

*Thank you!*

I am really interested in this thread. My last two dogs were both spayed at the earliest possible times due to the vet's recommendations. (It's been 8 years since my surviving dog was a puppy, so I really don't remember the age.) I will definitely be researching this again! I have read the posts, but now I intend to read the articles posted.


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## Red lippy mel (Mar 1, 2017)

Thanks for this question I wouldn't have thought to ask it! And thanks to all the replies!! An intelligent insight and I'm so glad I've learnt about this topic before getting a poodle. I'll do plenty more research and go with the advice I've read here.


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