# persistent gastro-intestinal issues...



## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Would the vet be wiling to do a stool culture? I wonder about a chronic bacterial thing that may take longer than two weeks of antibiotics to cure. 

Being it seems almost cyclic, is there anything that happens on the same approximate schedule (mowing the yard, treating the lawn, house keeper visit, other visitors,etc)? 

My first thought was camplyobactor, but the duration seems rather long.
Campylobacter Symptoms in Dogs | eHow.com

Another thought:
Giardiasis: Diagnosis, Treatment, and Prevention


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

I can't make any suggestions however hope you can discover what is causing this problem. Some poodles just have sensitive tummies, however this seems like much more. I have one thing I can do, and that is to pray you find a solution to your pup's problem. God bless you for your patience in working through these problems.


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## Laceypoo (Aug 23, 2011)

We have a pug who has had problems with her stomach since she was young (now 11). They sound very similar to your problem. A vet explained to us that the mucous is produced by the body to try to sooth the intestinal wall. The only thing we have found that has helped her is to put her on ONE food and allow her nothing else. No chew bones - nothing. I measure her food as well so that she is not over eating. We do give her a small amount of sweet potato at night because I hide 1/2 of a Pepcid AC Original Strength in it. She takes this before bedtime and it helps keep the acid down during the night.

She still will rarely have the very loud noises and apparently her stomach does bother her during this time. She will be restless. But, she does not have the diarrhea and the episodes are pretty far apart and will only last about 30 minutes. Maybe this could help you.

Good luck.


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## Nathan Pollock (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

@BorderKelpie: 
Apparently, no. We tried hard to eliminate all the non-daily routines and still can't see any correlations. Campylobacter we never thought of because it tends to be acute, not chronic (>1.5 years in our case). 

@Laceypoo:
Could you please tell what was that "ONE food and nothing else" that you settled on? We are down to a pretty limited and pretty basic diet but, alas, the diet experimentation takes forever before there is any certainty... Also, do you give Pepcid AC on a regular basis for most of these 11 years or is it strictly on a "per need" basis? If the latter, just how frequently does your dog have episodes these days?


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## cavon (Aug 10, 2010)

how has your vet tested for Giardia? This is a tricky, insidious little bug that often throws false negatives in a fecal flotatation. I would ask your vet for a test kit. 

My standard had Giardia and my vet advised to bring in 3 stool samples from three consecutive bowel movements. 

Additionally, while he was being treated for the Giardia, Finnegan developed a sensitivity to chicken. I tried multiple high end kibbles, but none of them settled his stomach.

A friend of mine told me about Hilary's Blend so I researched it and gave it a try. It worked and I have been using this method ever since. I have had several "wellness" blood panels run on my dog just to make sure everything was in order and all of his levels are repeatedly spot on.

HILARY'S BLEND (formerly THE BALANCER) supplement for home-made meals

Have you been adding digestive enzymes to your pup's food? These help to replenish the flora in the intestinal tract that may be compromised and lacking because of the chronic nature of the problem.


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## Laceypoo (Aug 23, 2011)

Our pug is eating Fromm Chicken a la Veg. I measure it each day. She gets a small amount of baked sweet potato at night and I hide 1/2 a Pepcid AC Original strength in a piece of it. She has been taking the Pepcid AC every night for about 5-6 years now. She will have an episode about every 3 months now and it will last about 30 minutes!!! It used to last all night and into the next day and happen every week it seemed like. 

Thank goodness Lacey has had no problems with her stomach so far and Maggie's is so much better since we started this "program". Just decide on a food, give it to her, and do not switch. Do not give treats or chew bones or anything else. The Pecid AC might help and sweet potato is very easy on the stomach. Good luck.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Ultrasound does not require general anesthesia. Find a different vet who will do it without anesthesia if you feel the test is necessary but are not comfortable with anesthesia for it.

I've had 2 dogs have ultrasounds without any sedation. The first was a cardia ultrasound and EKG done together about 6 years ago. The second was my miniature poodle who had an abdominal ultrasound done at about 16 weeks.

I have watched and helped hold dogs for non-sedated abdominal ultrasounds.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

I have no answers, but just wanted to chime in and say I feel for you. My mini had diarrhea for six weeks (better now for one week) and trying to figure out what was causing it was so frustrating and stressful. I can't imagine doing that for a year and a half.

If it was me, I'd do the ultrasound. Can't hurt and might provide some answers. I agree that it does not have to be done under anesthesia unless they want to do a biopsy?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

This is my fiance doing an abdominal ultrasound on his golden retriever. His dog was not sedated. For an adbominal ultrasound, the dog must lay on its back. We use a "v-trough", that helps keep the dog from tipping or rolling. I understand that sometimes a v-trough cannot be used depending on what the ultrasound is looking for, and the dog may be required to lay on it's back. If a dog is stressed and panting heavily, the ultrasound may not be possible without sedation.

ultrasound by tortoise11, on Flickr

You can train your dog to lay still, on a table, on it's back, at home. (You'll need to pad the surface to protect his spine and hold his front paws gently to help him balance. If your dog lays still and is not stressed, panting or resisting restraint, you might be able to sway your vet's opinion about using anesthesia.


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## Nathan Pollock (Aug 26, 2012)

Hello all. Just to update on what's going on and to inquire if there are any further ideas among readers here. 

Since my post in August, our dog had: 
- Two courses of fenbendazole (anti-worm plus effective anti-giardia drug). No help at all. 
- Bile acids test was done and ruled out a liver shunt.
- Ultrasound was done during one of her episodes and found nothing abnormal. 

At this point, the vets suggested a month-long trial diet of "ultra-low allergen food". That would be Hill's "z/d Canine ULTRA Allergen-Free". Lola definitely had some allergic/itching reaction to their z/d kibbles but seems to be doing OK (no new episodes for three weeks) on the canned z/d food (but $3.50/can...). Problem is, the food has consistency of modeling clay and the taste of boiled saw dust. The dog only eats that stuff when she gets really hungry - and even then, it's a real effort to make her start eating. 

So, assuming the whole illness really has something to do with the diet (although we've changed scores of dry and canned premium foods/brands), what are our options now? I am thinking that she can't possibly be allergic to ALL non-hydrolyzed food, so we should try introducing "real" foods - one by one, each over a month, as an additive to this canned crap. This is going to be a long process and I am not sure what foods we should put on top of the list. Ground beef, boiled chicken, liver, anything else?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

My Jake that I lost last year had chronic tummy problems (after I switched him to raw for some reason) and my (holistic) vet pretty much diagnosed it as an internal allergic reaction to certain foods. Certain foods just set him off. He got every test imaginable and cost quite a bit. We could never figure it out. We did rule out all the serious stuff, and I finally said no more when they wanted to the ultrasound, etc. Figured it out to most likely be chicken and just used limited ingred food, no grains, a probiotic, a tsp of pumpkin in his food occasionally, etc. and just worked with it. It was very frustrating. Hope you can figure it out.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Ah, just noticed your post -- IMO I would get him off of Hill's for starters.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Nathan Pollock said:


> So, assuming the whole illness really has something to do with the diet (although we've changed scores of dry and canned premium foods/brands), what are our options now? I am thinking that she can't possibly be allergic to ALL non-hydrolyzed food, so we should try introducing "real" foods - one by one, each over a month, as an additive to this canned crap. This is going to be a long process and I am not sure what foods we should put on top of the list. Ground beef, boiled chicken, liver, anything else?


Has she finished the trial on the z/d? If not, you shouldn't add anything at all. If you're looking at true food allergies, it can sometimes take as long as 8 weeks for allergic reactions to die down completely once the dog is no longer eating whatever set it off. Are you seeing any improvement?

When you come to the end of the trial and start to try out "real" foods, you cannot feed anything she's ever eaten before. Chicken would definitely be off the list since it's in so many dog foods. It's often difficult to come up with something novel when a dog has eaten a wide variety of kibble.

I've just been through months of the same kind of thing with Cali. I've been tweaking her diet for about 3 months now and finally she was having solid poops this week. I'm out of town right now so have fingers crossed it continues while she's at the sitter's.

I've spent the last 15 years sorting out diets for two Rotties who had IBD. It is a long, frustrating process. Most people make the mistake of moving too fast and introducing too much at once. Just over three months ago I started Cali out on beef and rice, nothing else. In the ensuing time, I've introduced a multivitamin, a calcium supplement, organ meat, a few drops of fish oil, probiotics and a bit of pumpkin. She's still short on Vit D, so the next thing I'll introduce is a D supplement and then the diet will be balanced but it has taken me over 3 months to get to this point. I still haven't managed to get rid of all the itching but some of it is probably environmental so I thought I'd tackle the poops first! LOL

One thing I have learned over the years is that when a dog has an inflammed gut, the diet has to be very low in fat. All commercial diets, even the hydrolyzed ones, meet AAFCO recommendations for fat. My experience has been that often the fat content of these diets irritates the gut further even if the dog isn't allergic to the contents. If I just cook and drain Cali's ground beef, the stools get soft again. I have to cook, drain and then rinse it in hot water to lower the fat content. When you do get to the point of taking your dog off z/d, or adding something to it, make sure it is low fat.


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## Nathan Pollock (Aug 26, 2012)

@caroline429
No, she's only done 3 weeks of z/d diet but it's incredibly frustrating and I have hard time seeing where it goes... She does not eat that z/d food! She is eating progressively less and less of it (instead of getting used to and eating more). It's gotten to the point where her daily amount is something like two tea spoons! Lola lost a lot of weight and we just don't know what else we can do or how she can manage another five or so weeks, eating like that.

As for improvements... Hard to tell. Some symptomps seem to have disappeared (no loud gurling, no lethargy, not much eating grass) but loose stools (although tiny in volume, now that she eats so little) and hardly any drinking seem to persist. She also now sleeps a lot more, particularly in the morning. We think it's because she is getting weak from not eating much.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

We had a toy poodle who had a very sensitive stomach her whole life. She lived to be fourteen years old. While I know many won't agree, the only food she did well on was the very small kibble Science Diet. We tried several higher quality foods, but that was what kept the 5 3/4 pounds on her. We also found out when she was very young that we could not give her any kind of treats or chews that had any kind of dye in them. She could only do the plain beige colored puppy treats and not have any problems. Several times the vet had us do the rinsed ground beef and rice for Patches when she had some issues which was fine except we would find rice from one end of the kitchen and dinning room to the other. Seems she would pick out all the ground beef and leave rice everywhere. I didn't know a little dog could make such a mess with cooked rice.  I am so very sorry to hear that Lola isn't feeling well. Hope you are able to find out what is going on.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

My Sophie had occasional tummy rumbles from the time I got her (6 yo) until she died. It wasn't as bad as what you describe, but it certainly was a problem. The GI noises were loud and she was clearly in some pain. 

As you have done, I paid a lot of attention to her diet. My practice is to have kibble available all day and to add about 1/4 pound of meat for supper. So I started keeping track of what she was fed. I found that the number one culprit was fatty chicken meat. She was OK if she just got the breast meat (which she loved), but she definitely reacted if she got skin or fatty thigh or leg meat. 

In general, when a dog gets an upset stomach, my vet recommends feeding white rice and boiled meat (chicken or beef). I'm not sure he'd recommend that as a steady diet, but you might want to try it for a while, or add it to the food that she doesn't like.

I always use meat that has been raised on grass with no added hormones or antibiotics. If you can get it from a farmer, beef heart is a good option because it is nutritious but not too expensive. 

Also, I found that Pepto Bismal was effective in stopping Sophie's tummy rumbles. I used a syringe to squirt it at the back of her cheek so that she would swallow it.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I noticed that the OP's dog has been fed a poultry based food each time (chicken, duck). Many dogs have become sensitive, or even allergic to poultry based kibbles.

I would try a fish based kibble. Acana Pacifica or (grainfree; potato is the starch), or Evo Herring and Salmon (the Evo has limited ingredients and no potato or grains, which some dogs are sensitive to, as well) may help.


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

Nathan Pollock said:


> @caroline429
> No, she's only done 3 weeks of z/d diet but it's incredibly frustrating and I have hard time seeing where it goes... She does not eat that z/d food! She is eating progressively less and less of it (instead of getting used to and eating more). It's gotten to the point where her daily amount is something like two tea spoons! Lola lost a lot of weight and we just don't know what else we can do or how she can manage another five or so weeks, eating like that.


Where this is meant to go is to calm down all allergic reactions so you can then introduce some novel foods. While the theory behind z/d is good, it is not always sucessful for a couple of reasons. One, as I mentioned, is the fat content and also the type of fat. It contains soybean oil which is primarily omega 6. Omega 6 is proinflammatory. If you want to calm down an inflammatory response, whether it is skin or gut, it is better to use an oil that is primarily omega 3.

The second reason is that the protein particles in these foods are not always hydrolyzed small enough so that the dog's body doesn't recognize them. I'm not at home at the moment, so can't look it up, but I have a book that contains a research paper studying the hydrolyzed foods and it found that sometimes the protein was still recognized. Since the primary ingredient in this food is chicken, and just about every dog with allergies who's ever eaten kibble is allergic to chicken, if any of the protein is still intact the dog will react for sure.

All of this is well and good in theory but if your dog won't eat the food, then I'd think it is time to move on to a different plan of action. I know that everyone says a dog won't starve itself to death and while that may be true, they will certainly starve themselves into losing weight. My Cali was a terrible eater when kibble was the only thing on the menu and when she was at the petsitter's, she refused to eat at all. Since I've switched her to a homemade, cooked diet, there are no problems.

Can your vet provide guidance for a homemade elimination diet? It would involve feeding two novel foods, and only those foods, for a period of 6 - 8 weeks. Same theory as the z/d, but certainly tastier for the dog if it's "real" food.



Nathan Pollock said:


> As for improvements... Hard to tell. Some symptomps seem to have disappeared (no loud gurling, no lethargy, not much eating grass) but loose stools (although tiny in volume, now that she eats so little) and hardly any drinking seem to persist. She also now sleeps a lot more, particularly in the morning. We think it's because she is getting weak from not eating much.


It does sound like she could have IBD. Although IBD is a catch-all term for a myriad of different conditions, the dietary approach is pretty much the same so you don't necessarily need to know exactly which condition it is. I didn't realize until just recently that IBD is considered a hereditary problem in all three sizes of poodles.


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## Nathan Pollock (Aug 26, 2012)

Everyone, thanks for the replies. Unfortunately, Lola died yesterday. Maybe our experience will help others... Here is how it all went: 

1. While on z/d diet, she had sudden and severe onset of symptoms. Diarrhea, constant vomiting. Vets, emergency, IV line, etc. followed by endoscopy and colonoscopy with biopsies taken. Don't know results of the biopsies but the scoping indicated scarring in the stomach and inflammation in the small intestines. Gave her a bit of "real" food, she ate enthusiastically. 

2. She was recovering from anesthesia very, very badly. In 24 hours, she still could not walk normally. 

3. On top of that, within a day of taken home, she developed terrible UTI (trying to pee 50 times within 20 minutes, etc). There is no way anyone can know but it's entirely possible that UTI was a result from contamination after colonoscopy. Stopped eating again, very weak. 

4. Taken to the vets again. Subcutaneous water injection, prescribed antibiotic - cephalexin (250 mg capsules, twice a day; she is normally 17 lb, at this point, after hardly eating for three weeks, she was probably down to 12-13). The vet gave her first capsule but she continued to refuse any food. 

5. Within 3 hours of the antibiotic, we noticed some swelling around her eyes and the fact that she has trouble standing. From that point on, things progressed very quickly - she was deteriorating by the second. In about 30 minutes we were at the emergency again; while in the car, it was obvious that Lola has trouble breathing and that her heart rate is slowing down. In the vet clinic, right at the moment of moving Lola to the vet student hands, she died. Presumably, it was extremely rare reaction to the antibiotic but the truth is that no one willl ever know for sure and it could be a combination of many factors. 

Lola was exactly one month shy of two years. Of which she spent 1.5 years suffering from her never properly diagnozed illness. We miss her immensely but I can't help thinking that maybe it's a good thing that she died from a freak coincident. Otherwise, we would probably kept her going in misery for god knows how many months or years...

If we ever get another dog, we will never feed even a milligram of the commercial food. At this point, I believe that the whole "IBD" and "food intolerance" simply must be related to the garbage we feed our pets (although we tried many other foods, she ate various Acana kibbles most of the time; most of the time she was able to eat, that is).


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## caroline429 (Mar 5, 2012)

I am so very, very sorry. Please, please don't feel any guilt thinking that the IBD was in any way caused by what you fed Lola. I've read everything I can get my hands on about this disease and lived with it for 16 years with my Rotties. There is absolutely no doubt that this condition has a genetic link. It has been listed as a hereditary health condition of Rotties for ages and it is now being listed as a hereditary disease in poodles.

While it has been my experience that, once diagnosed, IBD dogs do better on a novel protein, very low-fat homemade diet, this only manages the symptoms, it does not cure, or prevent, the disease.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh my goodness..so sorry to hear about Lola. You did everything you could but it just wasnt meant to be. So sorry for your loss.


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## Jdcollins (Feb 3, 2011)

So sorry to hear about Lola... You've been through the mill.. at least you can both rest now. 


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## poo lover (Nov 7, 2012)

So sorry for your loss our prayers are with you and your family


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i am so very sorry.


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## roulette (Feb 18, 2011)

Heartbreaking news, so sorry for your little pup. Rest in Peace, dear one.


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## papoodles (Jun 27, 2011)

*I am so sorry..*

Dear Nathan,
I just had time to read the whole thread from beginning to end, and was hoping that somewhere in there, I'd find the news that your beloved little Lola was on the mend. I know how deeply you loved her and how wonderfully you took care of all her needs.
OMG! this isn't the news I was hoping for. I am so, so very sorry for your loss and just want you to know that I am grieving with you. Dear sweet little girl, may she rest in peace.
I wanted to add this in response and affirmation to Nathan's warning about commercial dog foods.
Such a timely article..
http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...23/aflatoxin.aspx?e_cid=20121123_PetsNL_art_1


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I just read this thread for the first time, so sorry about the ending. Just know that you did everything that you could.

I rescued a shih tuz that would go a day or two sometimes without eating and you could hear his tummy across the room. I too tried differant foods. It just became something that we lived with, when he did this (maybe once or twice a month) I just left him alone. IF I could get him to eat something, most the time he would recover quicker. Most of the time that was a cooked egg. We never got involved with medical treatments or vet recommendments and he lived to be 16 years old. He started to use the potty in the house at that time and though I tried really hard to fix this problem, I ended up putting him to sleep. Had this not started I think he would have easily lived a few more years.

So sorry for your lost. I hope to hear that you have a new rescued Poodle soon. I think the best thing to help us heal from this heartbreak in a new little face to cuddle.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

Im so sorry. It sounds like you did everything you could for her.

You did what you thought would ultimately get your pup better, you obviously very much cared. It is not a commercial food that causes IBD, and its extremely risky to feed raw food to pets with a compromised intestinal tract due to bacerial translocation. You followed the right steps in hopes that she would respond. 

I will be honest in saying that it sounded like she had some other major disease present (gastrointestinal lymphoma?), unfortunatley not always caught with biopsies.

Hugs to you, you obviously loved her very much.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am so sorry. You must be exhausted and frustrated that after all you did you still were unable to save Lola. My heart goes out to you. I know how empty the house seems once your dog has crossed the rainbow bridge.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

So sorry for your experience and loss of Lola.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

So sorry for your loss but please don't blame yourself or her food. I am sure you took very good care of her and did everything right. It is so hard to lose one. My heart goes out to you and your family. 


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