# lines without bloat or addisons?



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Health problems exist equally in lines of show poodles and non-show poodles. Where are you getting the information about the health issues in poodles? Are you using PHR or researching using a combination of PHR and asking people about specific dogs in the pedigrees/lines? PHR is a wonderful tool but will only tell you what people have reported. Those who believe in the power of PHR will report more, which means they may appear to have more health issues in their lines than those who abstain from reporting health issues. Also, when you look at Top Producers, you may notice more health issues produced. Obviously, when a dog has been bred countless times to various bitches, health issues will crop up. 

As far as lines without bloat and addisons, I don't believe such a line exists. All lines have health issues but some are known for producing more than others.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thank you for your thoughts. I have been using PHR and OFA and also asking people. I realize bloat and addisons are prevalent, but there has got to be some out there without it for the last several generations. Before that, I understand because it was all about beauty. In the last 10-15 years there SHOULD be some people who are putting health at the top of the list when considering breeding or at least second after looks.  

For example, several dogs tested borderline in things and they still bred them.


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

outwest I can't help with any of the answers you seek but you raise a point that I think should be a lesson to all breeders. Health should come first. unfortunately health isn't always on the top of show breeders priorities, winning usually is. 

A great example is dogs with skin folds such as Pugs who can't breath properly due to a breed standard that actively promotes breeding dogs of poor health for looks. Also Chihuahua's who can no longer give birth naturally without a c-section all because their ability to "conform" to a Victorian-esque ideal of the prefect dog in the ring is more important than the health of the breed long term.

/rant off 

That aside I applause you for looking for a healthy poodle ahead of a conforming one. People who share your ethos are what will save the majority of breeds in the long run by promoting health above all.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

outwest said:


> I have been researching some show poodle lines while I try to figure out which way to go with breeding my poodle. Some of the top winning standard poodles seem to come from lines that have an awful lot of disease.
> 
> Are there any standard poodle AKC show lines you know of that don't contain any addisons or bloat in the last 5 generations?
> Any thoughts on very healthy poodle lines?


Dear Outwest;

In my opinion *no one* can say they have a "line" of standard poodles that do not bloat or produce addisons disease. Why, or how, both of these diseases occur has *not* been discovered. 

There are a few breeders of poodles who believe they can say they have "clean" lines because they bred a mother to a son and produced a litter of puppies but even that is not proof of no disease. Statistics rely upon very high numbers. Many *diseases skip generations*.

Try to find a breeder who is *trust worthy* and will *talk *about what health issues they have *produced*. Find out what they did when they first learned about a puppy they bred being affected by bloat and/or addisons disease. A reputable breeder should have phoned the owners of all littermates to let them know. IMO the breeder should not repeat the same breeding either. Replacing a puppy or providing money back does not make one a good breeder just an inexperienced one or a for profit breeder. Anyone who breeds enough litters produces disease!

When you find a stud dog you like ask someone with a great deal of experience in poodle pedigrees - or *many someones* - what is their opinion of the breeding. *Listen carefully* to what they say or *do not* say! Sometimes people ask questions but only want to *hear what they already believe* and tune out anything that does fit into their worldview.

Ask the breeder of the stud dog about previous litters and producing disease. Some breeders believe if you don't actually ask they do not need to tell. Reputable breeders or up-to-date health tested poodles are not as easy to find as many believe.

Breed to an *older* stud dog, (↑7), whose health testing is current - (ie eyes within a year, SA within a year, blood for thryroid and K+/Na+ ratio within a year, etc.). *See the health testing paperwork for yourself! 
*
This is why breeding dogs is just like gambling! The *odds* are *always* on the *house* and the house is *mother nature*.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Rayah, you are saying a lot of the same things my dogs breeder is saying including an older male who is recently tested (I think she said those exact words). I was beginning to think I was one of only a few nuts who thinks health of the breed is in its long term interest. I KNOW that all lines can have disease and that nothing is guaranteed, but I don't see why I can not try to find a stud without too many problems that matches my girl well. My breeder said that is often very hard to do. You wouldn't think so with all the dogs out there.

Immune issues, to me, are the most important. I have been disappointed when looking closely at top dogs pedigrees.  With my breeders help, hopefully I will find what I am looking for. The breeder is looking, too. If I can go outside of my dogs lines completely, it would be best. Of course I want a beautiful standard poodle like everyone does, but not at the expense of health, intelligence or personality. All I can say is that I am so glad to be starting this search EARLY! 

Can't a person have it ALL?!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

It depends how free of these conditions you need it to be. Is it possible to find a dog with a twelve-generation pedigree with no links to genetic disease? Possibly. Is it possible to find a dog with no links to genetic disease, no matter how far back one goes? No. Breeding is a gambling game. You have to play based on probability; the probability of maximising the likelihood of the desirable conformation, temperament, and colour you are after, and the probability of minimising the risk of genetic diseases and attributes you don't want. You can reduce the probability of bad stuff, but you can't make it zero, the same as you can't make certainty of getting the good stuff.

In order for a recessive or polygenic condition to show up, the genes responsible for it need to be able to find each other. A gene can go generations and generations without ever being combined with other genes where it would be detected in a puppy. That's how disease has managed to persist despite people's best efforts, and also how benign genetic conditions such as parti and agouti patterns have survived despite the best efforts of the people who write the breed standard. There will always be this risk.



CharismaticMillie said:


> Also, when you look at Top Producers, you may notice more health issues produced. Obviously, when a dog has been bred countless times to various bitches, health issues will crop up.


This is also a valid point. Because there tend to be proportionally fewer breeding males than breeding females, due to the limited number of litters one can ethically have from one bitch, it also appears that there are more dogs who carry diseases than there are bitches. There is also human control and error, including breeders and owners not reporting diseases, and owners of stud dogs refusing to stud their dogs to bitches with diseases in their recent ancestry, that can skew things. If a dog has produced a lot of litters clear of genetic diseases, the likelihood that he doesn't carry such diseases is increased. On the other hand, if he's been bred that much, it's perhaps not helpful to the gene pool to keep putting him back in it.

I would suggest a happy medium might be to avoid carriers of Addison's recently on both sides of the family tree and bloat producers in the last four generations on either side. This should minimise risk without limiting you too much in terms of what stud you can use.


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## rikkia (Nov 5, 2011)

outwest said:


> Can't a person have it ALL?!


No, but we can dream!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Outwest,

CM is correct about many of the top producers. They have been used so many times to so many different lines and bitches to see an incidence of bloat or SA or Addisons should not scare you off.

Think lightening strikes, plane crashes and train derailments. It's a huge deal, but considering the statistics the odds are.... Does that compute? Seems that it doesn't for so many criticizing top producers. A dog that has been bred 3 times but shows no bloat, SA, Addisons, insert horror here, bred 100 times would likely be showing the same genetic issues as the top producers- maybe even worse. :ahhhhh: You feel safer using the dog bred 3times but the thought process is not really sound.

Something to really look at in a line is doubling - but you also should keep in mind that total outcrosses are also thought to even be a higher risk sometimes than line breeding into what you know exists. There are studs that I have been cautioned against ever doubling on. Work with your mentor and other breeders and handlers who KNOW the animals and their offspring. They will provide so much more information than you can find anywhere else.

For my part, when I see bloat I consider structure and temperment. Minis and toys are not known to torsion. A long time breeder I talked to about it said they don't have the room in the chest = structure. Other lines might have the structure, but the temperment is very laid back and you don't see bloat there, generally, either.

Addisons - that one to me is a LOT riskier. If you locate a breeding that produced an Addisons - then I would not use a littermate of that breeding. It's my opinion that litter should be SN. Not necessarily the bitch or stud BUT, if a bitch produces Addison's with multiple males - spay the bitch. If a male produces Addison's with multiple bitches - don't use the male.
You can find this often enough as you are researching.

Those are my thoughts, anyway, and what I've researched and discovered and hashed out with mentors.

Ultimately, and I can say this because I have stayed up nights researching and biting my nails trying to decide...your mentor and your breeder can and will direct you SO much more than the internet. ESPECIALLY if you have a breeder (and you do) that is involved and active in the breed. 

When I see people talk about how health is sacrificed for show dogs I tend to raise an eyebrow at that person. Really??!!! There are some breeders who do, but they are the EXCEPTION. The MAJORITY of us, breed for all 3, health temperment and structure, and yes, all 3 are available to us, though no line is entirely clear of health issues and no dog is structurally perfect. The amount of time and money we invest is nuts, we love our dogs as children and would NEVER sacrifice or skimp on our breeding ideals. We are breeding for our next dog - our next pet - our next best friend. I'd never breed to a substandard cross eyed male because he is thought to be "healthy". How ridiculous. Nor would I breed to a beautiful animal who has produced known health issues. That's just as (I want to say stupid but I'm trying to be nice) foolish. 

The bottom line is that there is no need to sacrifice health, structure or temperment. Now color, I obviously believe that is the one thing that can (and must be for red breeders) be sacrificed, and the only one - at least for a few years - that should be sacrificed.



Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS Edited to say Zyrconna said it really well!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Thank you all for your wonderful insights. I suppose I should not make mention here, on the internet, of my thoughts. I do have a breeder who is helping. If all else fails, I could go with one of the breeders dogs although she is advising against it. She has several different lines. The trouble is, my girl is a mixture of all those lines. The COI would likely go over 10%. 

I will spend the next year learning and studying. If I ever get a nice puppy from Bonnie, it would certainly be a long time coming. My breeder just bred two full sized standards together. It has been 10 years in the making and everyone is excited, including me. I even thought about getting one of the puppies myself instead of breeding Bonnie, but the breeder is encouraging me to wait and breed Bonnie. She is pleased with my dog and has promised help in finding a good sire for her, but I feel I have to do my own research as well.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

What a great thread! Thanks so much to outwest and to all who have shared their insights! This is such an important topic.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Trillium and I have done a ton of research on the top winning dogs in the US and Canada, and I have to say, we have been TERRIFIED by a lot of what we have seen. One male in particular. We know this guy is going to end up used A LOT and YIKES!! S/A is running rampant through his pedigree, on both sides, as close as one generation behind him. Addisons, bloat, ASD....NO THANKS!!! His puppies will be gloriously stunning, but at what cost??


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, I agree. It isn't worth it, not at all. I am not a full on breeder and have no plans to be one. I am so glad that there are some breeders that share my concerns. There will be healthy, good looking poodles for all if those of us who believe in doing the right thing, do it and don't compromise. I will compromise a bit on conformation (of course I want a poodle to look like a poodle!), but I won't compromise on temperment or health. 

There are so many wonderful poodles out there. I'll get it figured out.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

I am convinced that if you find a breeder who says they have no bloat in their line they are either not being honest or they are unaware...the more I hear (under the table...so to speak) from people...it is there..and someone who says they dont have it in their lines...well, I would have a hard time believing it.


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

I know of no lines with out some sort of issue. Many times we have to pick which battles to fight. Many times the breeders are not aware there isa health issue. Puppy buyer never contact them back, or they say the dog died of "poison", no vet check, etc. 

Try to do follow up on 5-6 generations, plus all the siblings. there is no way you will find lines that are completely healthy.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I know that. I am not asking for perfection, that isn't possible. I was only surprised at how much disease seems to be in the top lines. CM may be right that frequently used dogs will show more disease because of the higher number of puppies. It was still very discouraging to see dogs being bred who tested less than optimally and many dogs being bred with only partial testing. Some dogs lacked eyes. Eyes are one of the easiest and least expensive to check. Why leave out eyes? We have a breeder on this forum who spayed and sold as a pet a gorgeous dog because she wasn't happy with the testing. I will forever think highly of her. 

Anyway, like I said, I will figure it out. I suspect it will be a happy medium.


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

In the "old days" we just did one eye exam and then did the hips. Not thinking that 6 months later the eyes could have early onset cataracts. I to am surprised at the lack of eye exams. We bought a sweet girl a few years back, had her eyes tested when we bought her( parents had NO testing), she was fine. Showed her to her U Gr CH, She might have even made it to top ten that year. at 3 years old her exam showed she was starting a juvenile cataract..ACCKKKK. so had her spayed. 
Another reason you don't see CERFs listed on OFA is that most of the time the breeders don't send them in. Just file the paperwork and don't spend the extra $$ to get it published. I do all our dogs every spring, but only send to CERF every other year.

You would think that anyone offering a dog at public stud would have the eyes done yearly(and published), but sadly, this is not true...

In the UK, the AHT is doing research on Early Onset Cataracts. Right now the poodles are not on the list, but if we could send them DNA of clears, affected and carriers, then it will be on file. If anyone would like to do this, please PM me and I will get you the address. The DNA test is already available for several breeds.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Just to throw this out there but what about a stud from another country? I do NOT know if there is a health database in other countries but maybe that is the way to go. With AI being fairly prevelant I don't see why you couldn't get imported sperm. I think you said Bonnie had some bloodlines that were from imports. I know that Karbit Imports some of their dogs. Even though this is a Moyen, & Mini breeder she might have really good ideas of breeders with Spoo's from another country. Again just throwing it out there.


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Outwest. I also find the subject fascinating, and have learned a great deal from reading everybody's comments.

I'm still picturing those little - and healthy - Bonnies running around.....


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

3dogs said:


> Just to throw this out there but what about a stud from another country? I do NOT know if there is a health database in other countries but maybe that is the way to go. With AI being fairly prevelant I don't see why you couldn't get imported sperm. I think you said Bonnie had some bloodlines that were from imports. I know that Karbit Imports some of their dogs. Even though this is a Moyen, & Mini breeder she might have really good ideas of breeders with Spoo's from another country. Again just throwing it out there.


Foreign dogs are possible. In fact, mine has a Latvian dog that was used at great expense and hassle (and Belgium and others). I think a lot of people are importing dogs from places like Russia and the like to try and get some new blood in there. AKC is NOT making it easy to do, though. I know it took three generations of dogs born in Canada from the Latvian dog to then finally bring the line into the US so it could be AKC registered. Oy. What a headache. My head is spinning just thinking about using Canadian dogs. It seems so complicated, but many people are doing it. I think it is the key to getting robust dogs, but I may be in the minority. Others completely disagree and do not think it necessary: "they are just dogs" .


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

What about the United Kennel Club. Do they have the same restrictions on import dogs as the AKC? I think I read somewhere that Bonnie already has her UKC Champion. Why not go that route? It is so much more fun & relaxed than the AKC to show & I find if you are doing the health testing, researching the lines etc... it is on equal footing of the AKC. I think you should look into that route esp. since your taste is the more robust working dog & plenty of us out there it is our taste as well.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

UKC is far from on equal grounds with AKC...AKC is the national kennel club for a reason

and my question is...why Europe? do you think they don't have the issues we do over there? HA!! When you don't have a system for keeping record of the health issues that are produced OF COURSE your lines are going to look cleanier...
also...MOST of their dogs come back to dogs over here...so again why? Why go to Europe where they only test for hips and eyes (and maybe a few more tests if they know what they're doing) when you can go to a breeder here in the states if you've proven yourself?

I love Rayah's post though ^_^


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

outwest said:


> Foreign dogs are possible. In fact, mine has a Latvian dog that was used at great expense and hassle (and Belgium and others). I think a lot of people are importing dogs from places like Russia and the like to try and get some new blood in there. AKC is NOT making it easy to do, though. I know it took three generations of dogs born in Canada from the Latvian dog to then finally bring the line into the US so it could be AKC registered. Oy. What a headache. My head is spinning just thinking about using Canadian dogs. It seems so complicated, but many people are doing it. I think it is the key to getting robust dogs, but I may be in the minority. Others completely disagree and do not think it necessary: "they are just dogs" .


Using Canadian dogs is not complicated at all. People in North America breed back and forth all the time and registration is never a problem.

Bringing in European dogs is not without risks. I am doing it because it brings some diversity to my reds. Quincy's Dad goes back to American dogs after a couple of generations, but his Mom is almost all European dogs in the first five gens or so. But as far as health goes, Keith is correct. You have to REALLY do your homework!

We are hoping to bring a European bitch in over the next couple of months. Same with her as with Quincy. One side goes back to US lines, but the other side is mostly European dogs. This excited ME because the red gene pool is so limited in North America. But this is not as big a problem for you because of Bonnie's colour.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Absolutely Cherie! There are some really nice dogs over there (the Avatar and Huffish dogs are some of my favourite in the world!!) You also know how much I love Quincy <3

I think importing a dog for the purpose of a line (like you're doing Cherie) is a little different than just breeding for your next dog...(though that could be argued for hours how I'm just splitting hairs XD)
for someone owning a bitch the cost of importing semen from a European country is astronomical...and what happens if that breeding doesn't work, do you intend on shipping your bitch to the stud? Not to mention, what happens when you find out that they weren't entirely truthful?

I think you're better off finding a breeder and getting to KNOW them then asking about dogs, I'm comfortable approaching several breeders and asking them their opinions on pedigrees, structure, and individual dogs because they know me and feel comfortable telling me what they have heard THATS how you succeed at breeding imo!

MY advice Outwest, trust your breeder like Tabatha said...Julie has been involved in poodles for well over 30yrs and she'll be able to give you some of the best insight possible! She'll be able to tell you what dogs produce what you're looking for structurally and what dogs produce the health/temperament you're looking for


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

I usually avoid these types of threads because in the past I've come away with less than charitable feelings toward the posters. Grumbling under my breath, I'd find myself saying once again "I can see how this benefits the breeder, but how does it benefit the breed?"

Not this time. Yay!!!!

I'm changing my grumbling (at least for today) to read:

"I can see how this COULD benefit the breeder and benefit the breed."

For all of you who participated in this thread, I commend you. Smart is so damn attractive.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

A few people are mentioning ‘European’ breeders. ‘Europe’ can mean a huge variety of countries/land masses that may or may not include Russia, Norway, Great Britain and other outliers (The European Union (not Russia and Norway), The Single European Currency (not Britain or Russia or Norway) etc.) These countries tend to vary somewhat in what is usual in terms of health testing, and at any rate, some individual breeders are more conscientious about it than others. Breeders I know in Germany seem to be pretty good with testing, whereas in my own country there seems to be a dearth of standard poodle studs and many studs’ advertised tests are unfortunately rather minimal.

Also, a note of perspective: Addison’s is probably one of the least unpleasant of the diseases poodles can get. Owners and vets can be educated on how to spot the symptoms and dogs with Addison’s can live normal happy lives with medication. I consider that kind of medical expense just one of the risks involved in owning a dog. Diseases like bloat, epilepsy, and sebaceous adenitis (statistically, many SA dogs are euthanised, because it’s hard to love an oozing dog who stinks like mouldering towels) are far more horrific than Addison’s. I don’t think it’s the end of the world if someone’s breeding dog has Addison’s carriers in its past, just something to be aware of. If you do breed from such a dog, it may be worth considering adding some information about Addison’s to your ‘puppy pack’ with the registration documents and contract you give to your puppy buyers (and you might want to do this anyway). It is hard to find a dog who doesn’t have a link to it somewhere in its ancestry, and being too aggressive on it probably does more harm to the gene pool than it does good.

There is really no excuse for producing a dog with any of the recessive diseases that can be genetically tested for. Get the tests and if your dog carries any of them, only breed it to dogs who have been tested as clear.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Of all the diseases and/or disorders a dog can suffer from, bloat is the one that scares me the worst. Until we know if there is or is not a genetic link, I watch pedigrees very closely for it. And I prefer not to breed to gigantic hulking males, just in case it is mostly the build of a dog that creates it. Having lost my Mother's heart dog last year to bloat, I never want to see it or think of one of my charges suffering from it. It IS a nightmare. I agree with Zyrcona on the Addisons issue. With the meds available now, from what I hear, a dog can have a relatively normal life with it.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

There are very, very few standards anywhere in the world who are not closely related. Many of the European lines go straight back to American lines after just a few generations..some take a few more.

The Wycliffe bottleneck effectively eliminated the majority of foundation lines for standard poodles, leaving us with genetics from only a handful of founders. Basically, the standard poodle breed was re-established at that point. I've done a couple of postings here regarding DLA (Dog Leukocyte Antigen) and MHC. 

I have spent the last decade plus researching pedigrees, looking for standards of both health and genetic diversity and things are really scary out there.

OK, now I'm really going to get flamed at here.. but some food for thought for everyone.. if our breed has less than a handful of founders and has been inbred on them for the past few decades.. anyone care to predict the future for standard poodles? I know that it's hard to imagine with all the many standard poodles out there, that standards could possibly be a rare and endangered breed... but it may be time to start thinking in those terms. Lots and lots of standards, very, very little genetic diversity. Without genetic diversity, the immune system fails to function properly and our poodles become homozygous for deleterious recessive genes as well. 

For those who are unfamiliar with it, you may want to take a look at the standard poodle project Standard Poodle Project

Sorry to sound so dismal...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> We are hoping to bring a European bitch in over the next couple of months. Same with her as with Quincy. One side goes back to US lines, but the other side is mostly European dogs. This excited ME because the red gene pool is so limited in North America. But this is not as big a problem for you because of Bonnie's colour.


Don't quite get this. Is the girl a red, then? Bonnie's color is much more common than reds. Is that why it isn't a problem, because I am not so concerned with getting an usual colored sire (I'd like black).


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

yes the girl is red


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> Without genetic diversity, the immune system fails to function properly and our poodles become homozygous for deleterious recessive genes as well.
> 
> For those who are unfamiliar with it, you may want to take a look at the standard poodle project Standard Poodle Project
> 
> Sorry to sound so dismal...


Amen. THIS is what I am talking about. I want cute, healthy, immune strong, genetically diverse puppies. I am going to try to get it somehow or another. I think it makes a difference in their personalities and smarts. It might mean a smaller standard poodle, but I don't see why they couldn't be conformationally nice. I think there is a correlation between size and bloat with the poodle body type. Larger standard poodles are nice, too, though. Such a dilemma.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> OK, now I'm really going to get flamed at here.. but some food for thought for everyone.. if our breed has less than a handful of founders and has been inbred on them for the past few decades.. anyone care to predict the future for standard poodles? I know that it's hard to imagine with all the many standard poodles out there, that standards could possibly be a rare and endangered breed... but it may be time to start thinking in those terms. Lots and lots of standards, very, very little genetic diversity. Without genetic diversity, the immune system fails to function properly and our poodles become homozygous for deleterious recessive genes as well.


I agree very much with your principle. Without meaning to impugn your research, I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion though. Populations do go through bottlenecks and recover -- as the population expands and stabilises, random mutations act to gradually increase genetic diversity. Humans did it, and up until quite recently on an historical scale there were still isolated human populations only enriched occasionally by the importation of genes through the very limited travel of the time.

What we need to do is increase awareness of this and make sure enough dogs are passing their genetics on and that genes being removed from the gene pool are being removed for the right reason -- and not because they don't produce extreme conformation dogs that look pretty in the show ring. There are not enough dogs being kept on for stud; I would really love to see the phenomenon of the show-winning popular dog who sires 30+ litters go away. I also suspect the big push to neuter dogs has gone a bit far. People keep telling me dogs should be neutered because entire dogs get cancer and are aggressive and uncontrollable. The reality is that most responsible people with a bit of experience and a willingness to educate themselves can manage an entire dog. There would be nothing wrong in my opinion with encouraging good people who buy a male puppy from a responsible breeding to pay for him to have health tests and allow him to sire a litter or two. It would also help if someone were to create a free international register of studs that anyone could view on the Internet. It would make it much easier for someone with a bitch to research all the options available. There needs to be less snobbery as well. A few times on this forum I've seen people claiming a dog is no good because they didn't like the practices of someone who bred one of its ancestors, and this doesn't seem to matter if the person who now has its descendant is trying very hard to do things responsibly and properly.

Finally, genetic technology is advancing all the time, and I suspect in the next few decades we are going to have access to genetic engineering to remove harmful genes from the next generation of our dogs. The 'designer' mutt fad is likely to be just a prelude to the real designer dogs of the future.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

zyrcona said:


> There needs to be less snobbery as well. A few times on this forum I've seen people claiming a dog is no good because they didn't like the practices of someone who bred one of its ancestors, and this doesn't seem to matter if the person who now has its descendant is trying very hard to do things responsibly and properly.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hmmm...sounds a bit like my situation... :angel2:


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

See comments below



zyrcona said:


> I agree very much with your principle. Without meaning to impugn your research, I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion though. Populations do go through bottlenecks and recover -- as the population expands and stabilises, random mutations act to gradually increase genetic diversity.
> 
> I really hope you are right!
> From my perspective, it seems that we are in a race against time right now. Desperately needing genetic tests... many give lip service to this need, few are willing to contribute DNA samples or actually become involved with the research.
> ...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

See comments below



zyrcona said:


> I agree very much with your principle. Without meaning to impugn your research, I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion though. Populations do go through bottlenecks and recover -- as the population expands and stabilises, random mutations act to gradually increase genetic diversity.
> 
> I really hope you are right!
> From my perspective, it seems that we are in a race against time right now. Desperately needing genetic tests... many give lip service to this need, few are willing to contribute DNA samples or actually become involved with the research.
> ...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

What to do with mine? I feel like I have to choose carefully. I would probably be one of those one or two litter people. Can't someone like me contribute something, too? I don't think people have to be mass producers of poodles over long periods of time to help, do you?

Knowing the history and understanding the issues is certainly the responsibility of anyone who breeds a poodle whether once or a dozen times.


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