# Very sad story from this weekend



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

OMG, that is an incredibly sad story.
It is difficult to understand what happened unless you witnessed it, and maybe not even then. I wonder if there was some physical problem with the Mastiff - perhaps he had some kind of extreme pain and he lashed out at the one standing next to him, assuming that they caused it? Even the most docile, well behaved dog on earth can revert to this kind of base behavior in the face of pain - any vet will tell you that.
My sympathy for your friend, I cannot even fathom how much pain she must be in now...


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That is a sad story, however I don't think there is no explanation for what happened. There are clues in your telling of the story. I rather doubt there was no warning. I am sorry for your friend. I also would have euthanized the attacker without hesitation. By Ian Dunbar's thinking a dog that has killed or maimed once is likely to do it again given a chance. You noted that the older dog was "less than thrilled" when the puppy arrived. That was warning number one. Did she know why the older dog was put into rescue? Could there have been dog aggression issues in that dog's back story?

Puppies are annoying to older dogs, even older puppies. A puppy should not be allowed to harass an older dog unchecked. And I don't think a puppy should be left loose and unsupervised around an older dog ever.

Many, if not most, people are pretty clueless about subtle canine body language cues. Missing those cues sets up minor skirmishes and potentially disasters like one dog killing another.

Yesterday when I was driving home from the trial we were at over the weekend I stopped at a nice roadside rest stop. It has a shady picnic area and off to one end of the picnic area (with a sign that says no dogs), a dog walking area. I parked in shade as close to the dog walking area as I could and went to the human potty stop, and then back to my truck and took the two poodles out for their potty break. On the way to the dog walking area I passed a woman sitting in the picnic area with a small crazy energy dog that was barking and lunging at the end of the leash. She was doing nothing to calm the dog. We had our walk and pottied the poodles and turned to walk back to the truck to get ready to head for home. By this time the small dog was on the walkway and the woman was still doing nothing to modify its behavior. Add to this now the approach of two mini doxies also pulling like mad out at the end of our leashes. The canine energy was awful and the body language was screaming at me "disaster in the making." Just as I approached a little closer I felt Javelin's leash start to go tight. At the same time I heard him give a serious growl then bark. At the same time I reached down and put my hand on the back of his neck and pushed him onto a down. I said to him very sternly that such a response was not acceptable. I held him on the down until he relaxed and offered eye contact to me. We then walked calmly back to my truck. The other people didn't even notice there was anything wrong from what I could read off of the human body language. The other three dogs were by then all barking at each other. Had I not been paying attention to everything we could have ended up in the middle of a huge hairy mess.

I don't want to lay any blame on the woman who now has no dogs, but I do think it is important to understand that dogs talk to us all the time through their body language. It is important that we pay attention to their messages and understand them correctly.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

lily cd re said:


> That is a sad story, however I don't think there is no explanation for what happened. There are clues in your telling of the story. I rather doubt there was no warning. I am sorry for your friend. I also would have euthanized the attacker without hesitation. By Ian Dunbar's thinking a dog that has killed or maimed once is likely to do it again given a chance. You noted that the older dog was "less than thrilled" when the puppy arrived. That was warning number one. Did she know why the older dog was put into rescue? Could there have been dog aggression issues in that dog's back story?
> 
> Puppies are annoying to older dogs, even older puppies. A puppy should not be allowed to harass an older dog unchecked. And I don't think a puppy should be left loose and unsupervised around an older dog ever.
> 
> ...


 I fully agree! I used to have his old lady neighbor who had a Doxie. She took that dog everywhere with her and walked it around the street several times a day. It would bark its head off at other dogs and she would just stand there and let it. My girl Aria, does not appreciate being barked at like that and after trying to ignore it, she would begin barking and growling back. Of course, she was always corrected and attention diverted, often times it meant we turned around and went back in the house. One time she even drove up and stopped her car behind mine so her little obnoxious thing could bark his head off at Aria while we were getting out of our car. For the most part, Aria would ignore it but it was so neurotic and non stop, she would react if I didn't get her out of the situation promptly. 

One day, we were headed into our holistic dog food store which was located next to a big grocery store. We were happily walking to the store, when that woman's dog was crazy! Barking his little head off at us while she was grabbing a cart to go into the store(she would take him into stores with her, even though he is poorly behaved). Aria had no idea he was even there until he started his chaos. Which of course, the woman just stared at us. I always got the impression she blamed other's for her dogs barking. Well, Aria had enough, and she lunged and started barking (We were no where near them) well I had not clipped her leash on correctly and it released her. She went running at them full speed! I was horrified! I wasn't worried about the little **** dog, but I was concerned Aria would knock the little old lady down. Aria went right up to that dog and let out several loud barks right in his face. He immediately stopped barking, and probably wet himself lol. She immediately backed off when I called her off, but then she panicked and took off into a super busy parking lot. My world crumbled! I was sure she was going to get hit by a car and I was so angry at that woman for not controlling her dog. I know that my carelessness of latching her lead plays a part too, but I was so freaked out. Luckily Aria does have a good recall and I was able to get her to come back onto the side walk and coax her back over. She was so frazzled. The woman went into the store and my husband went in after her to make sure she and her dog were ok (Aria never touched either of them). She started yelling at my husband about how poorly behaved my dog was and how I needed to get her into some training! (Aria is an AKC show dog with several classes of obedience and conformation under her belt) she threatened she was going to have my dog "destroyed" for her aggressive behavior and told him to quite harassing her and to tell me to learn how to control my dog. My husband did go off on her, he was so angry how she blamed it all on our dog. Aria rarely reacts to other dogs, but this dog was so bad, she would get so annoyed and have enough.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I am so sorry for your friend's loss  Very, very sad. I thought dogs usually had some kind of aggression inhibition for puppies, but being a rescued dog, and being a bully breed, who knows what was in the dog's wiring.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

hunny518, I totally get how you felt about that woman with the doxie. Some people are so f%$*ing clueless. I hope your husband told her that Aria was a competitive obedience dog!

Zooeysmom puppy licenses do expire and this puppy was five months old. Javelin's puppy license was wearing very thin by the time he hit 5-6 months old.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

That is very sad. I cannot imagine the heartbreak and guilt your friend must be feeling. Over 30 years ago I was working overseas and met a couple from California who had brought their three dogs, a Great Dane, a Westie and another terrier with them. One day they came home to a crime scene: blood spatter all over the walls and the Westie was dead. I've never gotten their story out of my mind. The dogs had free run of the house and were unsupervised. They claimed they couldn't tell which of the dogs was responsible and both of the suspects were allowed to live.


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## TeamPoodle (Aug 10, 2015)

lily cd re said:


> Many, if not most, people are pretty clueless about subtle canine body language cues. Missing those cues sets up minor skirmishes and potentially disasters like one dog killing another.
> 
> I don't want to lay any blame on the woman who now has no dogs, but I do think it is important to understand that dogs talk to us all the time through their body language. It is important that we pay attention to their messages and understand them correctly.


I fully agree with this, it is something my husband and I discussed last night. I told him that although she said there was no warning, a lot of people don't take the time to understand dog language. Their cues can be very subtle. There's countless videos on Youtube that shows a dog being annoyed, and by the time the dog growls, he's already displayed several other behaviors that in his mind translate to "leave me alone". I'm a total novice to dog behavior but I have taken the time to get to know Riley's quirks and cues so that I can be a better mom to him. Without video, we'll never know what really happened, but it is still so very tragic. To have one of your dogs kill your other dog right in front of your eyes (they had just taken a walk and were sitting on a bench waiting for a friend)... I really can't imagine.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Another thing I would add is that adding another dog is rarely a good way to solve the problems of a dog that is already in the home. The depression and anxieties the original dog had should have been solved in order to be able to add another, not the other way around as happened here. One of my current students has a pom that is anxious and destructive in the home when left alone (free roaming in the house for 8+ hours a day most days). She said she wanted to get another dog to help her current dog. I explained to her that this was just about the worst way in the world to solve her current dog's problems but would instead be likely to result in her having two problematic dogs.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

lily cd re said:


> hunny518, I totally get how you felt about that woman with the doxie. Some people are so f%$*ing clueless. I hope your husband told her that Aria was a competitive obedience dog!
> 
> Zooeysmom puppy licenses do expire and this puppy was five months old. Javelin's puppy license was wearing very thin by the time he hit 5-6 months old.


Oh I read that wrong--thought he was 8 was when he was killed.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Another thing I would add is that adding another dog is rarely a good way to solve the problems of a dog that is already in the home. The depression and anxieties the original dog had should have been solved in order to be able to add another, not the other way around as happened here. One of my current students has a pom that is anxious and destructive in the home when left alone (free roaming in the house for 8+ hours a day most days). She said she wanted to get another dog to help her current dog. I explained to her that this was just about the worst way in the world to solve her current dog's problems but would instead be likely to result in her having two problematic dogs.



In a general way you are correct about that, except Teaka - she has severe separation anxiety when left alone, but when left with another dog she is fine, just follows them around and lays by their side. But that is probably because she was raised the youngest of three dogs.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

8 weeks! Sorry, darn phone. I should stick to my computer!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

TP I agree that for Teaka, having been the baby of the family for a long time, having someone new to keep her company makes a lot of sense. For my student whose dog is loaded with problems because she and the rest of her family can't even understand why they should have used a crate and think it is okay to leave a toy dog without appropriate potty options for 8+ hours a day getting another is a formula for not just doubling, but possibly quadrupling the currents dog's problems.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> TP I agree that for Teaka, having been the baby of the family for a long time, having someone new to keep her company makes a lot of sense. For my student whose dog is loaded with problems because she and the rest of her family can't even understand why they should have used a crate and think it is okay to leave a toy dog without appropriate potty options for 8+ hours a day getting another is a formula for not just doubling, but possibly quadrupling the currents dog's problems.



Oh, poor dog. So sad when dogs go to homes that are so clueless - I hope that you can straighten them out!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, poor dog. So sad when dogs go to homes that are so clueless - I hope that you can straighten them out!



I gave that student a card for one of my friends who is a full time pet dog trainer who works near where the student lives since I think it would be inappropriate to take them as clients. I did have success in getting another student with a now four month old husky puppy to sign up for a class with the puppy that started last week.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

It is very frustrating to see people who do not have a clue how to handle their dog. My neighbor has a huge Bernese Mountain dog. She took a puppy class with me and had zero control over her dog. The instructor actually warned her several times that she needed to get a handle on this dog. The dog is sweet tempered but so big that I worry that with all the uncontrolled jumping that her daughter will be hurt. She never walks her dog; she has told me she can't. Nothing has happened yet but I think it is only a matter of time. My neighbor is a lovely person, the dog is sweet but something bad is going to happen. I have done what I can from my end, but my neighbor has given up and the dog just runs wild. So sad.

This is such a sad story. It sounds like this owner was well intended and cared for her dogs but unfortunately she just did not pick up on the warning signs that must have been there.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

That dog will end up in rescue before long from how it sounds CT Girl. Why don't people think before they buy that cute little fur ball? Who in the world in suburbia needs a husky or a berner? Don't they understand that they are really really unlikely to be able to give the dog the exercise they need? I hope your neighbor's daughter being hurt isn't the reason the dog goes to rescue, hopefully she will really decide she's ready to rehome it when it destroys her sofa.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I tell you LilyCD, forget the name of the place, but the one Timi went to near you, I had a lot of respect when I complained to them about the poorly controlled Pit in class, they told the owner that they could not come back to group class, but could use the money for private lessons. The right intervention by a trainer can make all the difference in how a dogs life will unfold!


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

TeamPoodle said:


> ...I got some very sad news over the weekend concerning a good friend's dogs...
> 
> On Friday, her mastiff, without warning (according to her, I wasn't there), attacked and killed her puppy in front of her eyes. Her puppy died in her arms within minutes of the attack. Now feeling that she could not trust her mastiff anymore to come to work with her, and feeling that a caged and muzzled life wasn't a life to lead, she put her mastiff down the next day. She is, understandably, heartbroken. Her dogs were her babies, and she loved both so very, very much, especially the mastiff, which was her heart dog. And in the course of a weekend, they both died.
> 
> The whole thing has troubled me so much. I knew the mastiff and never would I have imagined he would do such a thing. I wish there was an explanation as to why this all happened.


That is a terribly sad story, and I will send good thoughts to your friend. I know she must feel so betrayed. I got bit in anger by a puppy once (the vet was examining his anal area, and it was painfully infected), and it hurt my feelings so bad that I cried. Just seeing your beloved pet turn on you...it's heartbreaking. And for her to see it kill her puppy right in front of her eyes...so sad.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

zooeysmom said:


> I am so sorry for your friend's loss  Very, very sad. I thought dogs usually had some kind of aggression inhibition for puppies, but being a rescued dog, and being a bully breed, who knows what was in the dog's wiring.



That puppy license usually wears out around 4 months of age. And too, the bully type breed could indeed have something to do with it. It's a terrible shame...so very sad for that woman. I like bully breeds but they need to be either only dogs or supervised to the hilt around other dogs. (crate and rotate) But again, this can happen with any dogs. I've heard this same story more than once. It's not that the dogs are evil. It's just the way they are. And even dogs that aren't bully breeds can do some weird things..._dog things_ that we can not always understand. Very sad. I'm so sorry for the woman.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

CT Girl said:


> It is very frustrating to see people who do not have a clue how to handle their dog. My neighbor has a huge Bernese Mountain dog. She took a puppy class with me and had zero control over her dog. The instructor actually warned her several times that she needed to get a handle on this dog. The dog is sweet tempered but so big that I worry that with all the uncontrolled jumping that her daughter will be hurt. She never walks her dog; she has told me she can't. Nothing has happened yet but I think it is only a matter of time. My neighbor is a lovely person, the dog is sweet but something bad is going to happen. I have done what I can from my end, but my neighbor has given up and the dog just runs wild. So sad.
> 
> This is such a sad story. It sounds like this owner was well intended and cared for her dogs but unfortunately she just did not pick up on the warning signs that must have been there.


CT Girl, feel free to pm me should the time come they wish to place the Berner in rescue or rehome him/her. I know someone in the breed who lives closer to you than to me, and could provide you referral info if needed, possibly same day.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

TeamPoodle, I am very sorry for your friend's loss and send my comfort via you. It must have been very shocking to her. If she becomes ready for a dog again, perhaps you can help steer her towards a breed which will more easily accommodate new dogs. Her loving heart must be so broken right now.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Such a sad story! I can't imagine going through that, though I do agree that a lot of the "attack without warning" stories happen because warning signs get missed or not recognized for being as serious as they are. 

I also think it's hard when a fight happens between dogs of two very different sizes. It doesn't take much at all for a big dog to kill a small one. It's part of the reason that having a small dog scares me and I've never done it.


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## NatalieAnne (Jul 23, 2016)

I too wonder if the Mastiff wasn't suffering from some undiagnosed health problem. So very many die about his age. 

Your friend must be in a tremendous amount of pain at this point in time. The break-up, move, & now this. That is a lot of loss in a short period of time. I hope she has family & friends who will show her their love, understanding, & support now & for the forseeable future.


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