# Wiggies needed



## spoospirit

opcorn: epsi:


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## Jillian

Why you are dying your blue dog black? Is it because it is harder to find blue wigs? I have seen more and more blue dogs be very competitive in the ring if they are a pretty blue colored. Some of the root-beer blue dogs don't look as good to me though as they look more brownish odd color. I understand some people think they have to dye the blue ones to compete, but it seems the trend is to acknowledge dogs of color now. Just curious. I don't think there's that many show people on here, certainly none that would admit to wanting to sell you wigs. I hear that specialing a dog is a lot of work! Did you finish your dog black, or blue?


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## Harley_chik

I don't think this forum is the appropriate place for this.


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## Jillian

Why isn't it appropriate? This is a poodle forum, this is a section on showing poodles, is it not???


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## jester's mom

I, too, was wondering the same thing. Why not show her as a blue? I guess I am confused as to when she has pups, what would she be called in color? And, I don't think you will find anyone on this forum that is "for" wigs, not openly anyway. I realize that this girl is a finished Champion, but wouldn't it be nice if a poodle could be specialed for what they are and win.


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## plumcrazy

spoospirit said:


> opcorn: epsi:


I prefer Diet Coke to Pepsi, spoospirit... I'll bring my own! :lol:

Here's another thread regarding this subject...

http://www.poodleforum.com/9-poodle-grooming/5432-wiggies-switches.html


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## spoospirit

plumcrazy said:


> I prefer Diet Coke to Pepsi, spoospirit... I'll bring my own! :lol:
> 
> _K.....I know the cup is wrong; but, I'm pretending I'm having Diet Coke too!! I'll share the popcorn though.
> _


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## jester's mom

Jillian said:


> Why isn't it appropriate? This is a poodle forum, this is a section on showing poodles, is it not???


Because the people on this forum are not keen on poodles being shown for what they are not. I know you are new to this forum but a discussion on this issue has been discussed before and not very acceptable. I know you are trying to show your girl and competition is stiff in the ring... especially in specials. If you are looking for this type of item, you may want to find a poodle forum that has others that deal with this. 

Just an FYI, I went to a show recently and the judge put his fingers into the top knots of all the dogs... not messing them up, gently... but verifying that the hair was indeed really theirs.

Edit... ok, plumcrazy linked you to the thread.

And, hey, make sure you save some of that yummy looking stuff for me!!


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

Please do not come here posting comments about this forum being a place where wiggies should not be discussed. This is the appropriate place for it being it is in the Show category. I understand completely anyone whose stand is to go "All Natural" but I am not planning to do that this time around. Wiggies, Dyes, Chalks, etc are ALL used in the show ring. This information I'm sure can all be very shocking to those that do not realize what many show dogs actually undergo. I am not a huge fan of this but I plan to Special my dog for a short while and intend on using some of the tricks of the trade. She is a blue and is not yet three years old. Anyone that is familiar with blues knows that they undergo an ugly brown color as they clear. It resembles oxidized hair and is not usually very pretty to look at. After several opinions of whether or not to dye her we decided to let the handler do it. So, she will be finished as a black but she is truly blue and will be featured in the Silver and Blue addition this month of Poodle Variety where many of the blues will be obviously dyed as well=) I did put her first few points on her as a blue and with NO TRICKS but it wasn't easy. As far as the question about her puppies goes...i'm not sure I understand what you are asking but she is a blue and is registered as such.


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## Keithsomething

I think what Harley Chick meant was this isn't an appropriate place for you to ask to buy one
theres a section that the Admin and Mods are working on where things can be sold/bought that isn't yet open

...at least thats the way I interrupted what she was saying
((if its not what you meant I'm sorry HC >.< ))

many of the forum members ((and poodle owners not on the forum)) are SUPER against wigs...because they aren't a real part of the dog


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## cbrand

I fully support your right to ask about wigs. However, I'm personally opposed to dying and wigging my Poodles so I don't have any wigs to share. 

IMHO, I think it is unfair when people wig because it gives these Poodles an unfair advantage in the ring. The wigging of Specials has trickled down and put pressure on the class dogs to wig. At this point, people are even wigging dogs in the Puppy class.

I would like to see a system implemented where a steward would go back to set up to watch WD, WB and BOV break down after their classes. Wins would be disqualified on wigged dogs. I think this would quickly take care of the wigging problem. 

Re dying: I know plenty of people who show Blues as Blues and even special them in their natural color. Frankly, it boggles my mind that you would dye a dog Black, special it, and then feature it in the Silver/Blue edition of Poodle Variety.

Finally, a word about dying a Blue dog black....... I have shown Blacks in their natural color and when people bring dyed Black dogs into the ring, it makes my natural Blacks look bad because the natural color is never as dark or consistent as the dyed colors. This is unfair, especially when your dog isn't even a real Black. 

I think if you have a Specials quality bitch then that Poodle should be good enough to win on her own merits. Best of luck with your Special. Will she be showing in Colorado? What is her name?


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## roxy25

4theLOVEofPOODLES said:


> Please do not come here posting comments about this forum being a place where wiggies should not be discussed. This is the appropriate place for it being it is in the Show category. I understand completely anyone whose stand is to go "All Natural" but I am not planning to do that this time around. Wiggies, Dyes, Chalks, etc are ALL used in the show ring. This information I'm sure can all be very shocking to those that do not realize what many show dogs actually undergo. I am not a huge fan of this but I plan to Special my dog for a short while and intend on using some of the tricks of the trade. She is a blue and is not yet three years old. Anyone that is familiar with blues knows that they undergo an ugly brown color as they clear. It resembles oxidized hair and is not usually very pretty to look at. After several opinions of whether or not to dye her we decided to let the handler do it. So, she will be finished as a black but she is truly blue and will be featured in the Silver and Blue addition this month of Poodle Variety where many of the blues will be obviously dyed as well=) I did put her first few points on her as a blue and with NO TRICKS but it wasn't easy. As far as the question about her puppies goes...i'm not sure I understand what you are asking but she is a blue and is registered as such.



I may know someone who can help pm sent


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## WonderPup

It's a shame that color seem to be such an issue in poodles  If more people, like youself, would STOP dying dogs it would STOP being such an issue. Judges would have more of these dogs to look at and sure you'd have some who would still be black and white judges but they would be fewer. Chalk is one thing, all over dye is another. That's not a mild cosmetic cover up or a slight enhancement or even a "trick of the trade". It's cheating. Read your rules and regs book, if you don't have a copy request one, you can get them for free. 
I am, (and it's rather ironic is it not) super against dying dogs, for the show ring at least. It's a problem in a bunch of different breeds 

Now that said, I do want to know what your handle is planning to use to dye your dog black since I am into creative grooming and always looking to see what dyes hold up and which do not. :rolffleyes:

cbrand, one wonder's why judges themselves don't feel for wigs. How easy is it to find one anyway? I know there are alot of bands in a topknot as it is. I'm gonna ask this question b/c now I am curious.


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## Harley_chik

:tape:


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## jester's mom

4theLOVEofPOODLES said:


> . As far as the question about her puppies goes...i'm not sure I understand what you are asking but she is a blue and is registered as such.


I was just curious because I have heard of breeders with "bad blacks" that dyed their dogs to win and continued the practice for using them as studs. Now, I realize yours is a bitch, not a dog, but I did not know if she had been registered as a blue or a black as a pup. And, it just seems strange to me to think of people coming to see mom and pups, having a pretty blue girl clipped into a comfy utility clip with pups and being shown a black bitch in full conti hair in a winners picture and saying, this is her. 

Obviously, you have every right to try and do what you want to for showing your girl, but I agree with what others have said, if more people didn't do this type of stuff, then the judges would have to choose the best put together poodle instead of the best "looking" due to hair and color. I wish you the best with specialing your girl but I don't care for the practice, that's all.


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## Fluffyspoos




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## ArreauStandardPoodle

WOW!!! I never cease to be amazed!

I breed reds and cannot get over the number of red breeders who enhance the colour of their dogs by doctoring photos, dyeing the dogs, using colour enhancing shampoos...the entire practice pevves me to no end. THAT is all I am saying oon the topic.


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## Olie

Keithsomething said:


> I think what Harley Chick meant was this isn't an appropriate place for you to ask to buy one
> theres a section that the Admin and Mods are working on where things can be sold/bought that isn't yet open
> 
> ...at least thats the way I interrupted what she was saying
> ((if its not what you meant I'm sorry HC >.< ))
> 
> many of the forum members ((and poodle owners not on the forum)) are SUPER against wigs...because they aren't a real part of the dog


....It says forum, not thread. Just sayinghwell: I agree many here are against, but some also do alter things with their dogs. The majority rule - so they just dont say much.


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## plumcrazy

Olie said:


> ....It says forum, not thread. Just sayinghwell:


Technically, Keith was correct in his terminology... Just saying!  This is the Poodle Forum - within the Poodle Forum are subforums (that we can still call forums) like "Site News and Information" is a forum for announcements and feedback, "Poodle Forums" which is a forum that deals with all Poodles, "Poodle Training & Obedience" and "General Discussion" are two other forums for example...

People can choose a "forum" to start their "thread". I think Keith was suggesting that this thread be in the "Classifieds" forum (which is correct terminology) but the Classifieds forum isn't quite up and running yet... workin' on it!  

Sorry for the voluminous description - but now you know something new! 

Carry on!


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## Olie

PC - with all do respect. It's a matter of interpretation.

Also, I am not saying Keith was incorrect as I understand what he was thinking - and I also read and understand how others responded right after


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## Jillian

I agree, if you read the threads it seems obvious to me that this has nothing to do with the placement of the thread but rather the content. I don't really understand the whole dying thing, but to say it inappropriate to discuss a topic that seems to be obviously prevalent in the dog showing world or to attack a person for doing what is typical seems against what this section of the forum is about and not helpful to anyone. *Either allow people to feel free to openly post their questions and discusssion on here or just shut the showing forum down altogether if you so disagree with what goes on in the real world that you have to be negative and nasty to members*. Sounds like she is looking for something that is pretty standard in practice. If you aren't going to be helpful and are just going to go into a rant about it, don't post! I was simply asking why about the dying and not casting judgment. I guess the unwritten rules here are only post what is considered PC by the majority of the forum. I am sorry if I offended you and didn't mean to open the snake pit up on you.


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## Olie

I am not worried one bit. Note - others interpreted the same way:rolffleyes: I too don't agree with cheating, at least thats how I see it BUT it is a practice that goes untouched by many judges-so for some it's either join in or bow out. 

Also - back to being told, I am incorrect. The navigation of this forum does also call the discussion topics "threads" notice what it says when you want to "search" something. THREADS

Here is my opinion as others have stated - people have the right to post, if it is a disagreement or not is up to the person who post and state whats needed. The problem that lies is there ARE people on this Forum that can help the OP out - and so be it. But they are not going to post this information publicly because "some" don't agree - thats where I think it is unfair. Go head and flame me. But some that even posted in this thread.....sub forum::doh:....have stated this very thing about others so why not be fair and practice what we preach?


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## Rockporters

This seems like the right place to ask imo. However, a touchy subject that probably falls best under the don't ask/don't tell policy .

Cherie, I don't understand what the big deal is with color enhancing shampoos? They really don't do anything earth shattering, well the blacks don't anyhow. I've used the CC Black on Black on Jasper. It might make the black a teeny tiny bit clearer, almost like a clarifying shampoo removing buildup. Other than that it doesn't cover, remove, or undo anything. In the end it leaves the hair dull so I don't use it anymore. Anyhow, just curious .


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## KalaMama

Rockporters said:


> This seems like the right place to ask imo. However, a touchy subject that probably falls best under the don't ask/don't tell policy .
> QUOTE]
> I agree.
> 
> 
> Bottomline is....it's illegal. I think of it this way....if a Black/White Parti Poodle was dyed black to go in the ring, I think everyone would think that was a huge no-no. Why would this be any more wrong? In both cases, an AKC rule(or a few) are broken.
> 
> On the otherhand, if the speedlimit is 25 and we all go 27 we are still breaking the law but it somehow seems ok. 45 in a 25 would not be ok to most. Either way it is wrong but 27 to most seems less wrong than 45.
> 
> At least the original poster is honest and not saying one thing and doing another. I can only imagine how competitive it is out there..


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## Fluffyspoos

I think we're all touchy about the subject because we have a lot of people on this forum that show their dogs as is.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Rockporters said:


> This seems like the right place to ask imo. However, a touchy subject that probably falls best under the don't ask/don't tell policy .
> 
> Cherie, I don't understand what the big deal is with color enhancing shampoos? They really don't do anything earth shattering, well the blacks don't anyhow. I've used the CC Black on Black on Jasper. It might make the black a teeny tiny bit clearer, almost like a clarifying shampoo removing buildup. Other than that it doesn't cover, remove, or undo anything. In the end it leaves the hair dull so I don't use it anymore. Anyhow, just curious .


The colour enhancing shampoos for reds generally have henna in them ...henna was the first dye used to colour red hair. It IS a dye. It does not clarify colour, crisp it up, clean it up...it dyes the dog. The more you shampoo with it the darker the coat will become. Being at the breeding end of things, I would much rather see an honest representation of a dogs colour because while searching pedigrees for mates, I can get a real good idea of what the dog looks like if the breeder does not dye their dog or enhance their photos. But as far as I am concerned, rthe only reason people would dye or enhance a pet breeding dog oor photos of it is to misrepresent and lie to everyone, and be able to say on their web site "We have the deepest red Poos out there! Our dogs are the richest red. We guarantee that your puppy's colour will not fade". PLEASE!!! Give me a break. If their dogs colour is so fantastic, why do they need to change it? And if I chose to breed my bitch to their male thinking their male was going to bring awesome colour to the table, and I found out after that the dog is dyed, I would be talking to my lawyer about charging them with fraud, because in my eyes, that is exactly what that is!!

If someone owns a spayed or neutered pet that is not being shown or not being bred, dye away and have a blast. Otherwise, to me it is WRONG!


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## Rockporters

Cherie, Thanks for explaining. It seems the red enhancers are different than the black. Or at least the blacks I've used. They're more like the blue shampoo that I use on my um... less than natural  blonde hair to tone down the reds. Barely a noticeable difference when using them. So much happens to hair with everyday wear and tear, I just looked at is as cleaning it up a bit and not actually changing the way the Poodle would naturally look. A moot point since it dulls!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Rockporters said:


> Cherie, Thanks for explaining. It seems the red enhancers are different than the black. Or at least the blacks I've used. They're more like the blue shampoo that I use on my um... less than natural  blonde hair to tone down the reds. Barely a noticeable difference when using them. So much happens to hair with everyday wear and tear, I just looked at is as cleaning it up a bit and not actually changing the way the Poodle would naturally look. A moot point since it dulls!


No problem! We may be showing Quincy and I will not cheat-period. If we show him and are finding it difficult competing against dogs who are dyed or have wiggies, we will pull him, clip him down and try our hand at obedience or agility. I refuse to stoop to this and it is part of the reason my Mom and I gave up showing years ago.


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## spoospirit

_I don't find this to be a question of whether it is right or wrong to ask any kind of question on the forum or whether it is in the correct section. Everyone has a right to ask whatever is on their mind. Nothing wrong in the questions here.

It is a fact that most of us are not supporters of the big hair that flops over, dying, and wigging. Some of us are OK with it. Everyone has a right to express their opinion and to me it looks as if everyone did a good job of it without becoming offensive to the originator of the thread.

Yes, questions like this do open up a big can of worms. But, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't debate it or for those who have it, to give advice to the op. Please forgive me for the popcorn and soda but I knew what was coming down the line. I hoped it would lighten up the posts a bit. 

I can see this situation from both sides of the subject. I don't find it fair for people to be dying their dogs and wigging them up to help them win in the ring. On the other hand, it has become a practice 'accepted' by the judges in the show ring by allowing it to happen and putting the dogs up. This puts an undo amount of pressure on those trying to champion their dogs to go in the same direction, right or wrong, in order to have a chance of winning.

Personally, I think it is on the judges to change the way they check the dogs, maybe like Cbrand offered, and put a stop to it. This would then cause the handlers to have to stop these practices as they would risk being disqualified.

I hope you find an answer somewhere to help you out. It just may not be here. And good luck in Specialling your dog.
_


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## jester's mom

Jillian said:


> I agree, if you read the threads it seems obvious to me that this has nothing to do with the placement of the thread but rather the content. I don't really understand the whole dying thing, but to say it inappropriate to discuss a topic that seems to be obviously prevalent in the dog showing world or to attack a person for doing what is typical seems against what this section of the forum is about and not helpful to anyone. *Either allow people to feel free to openly post their questions and discusssion on here or just shut the showing forum down altogether if you so disagree with what goes on in the real world that you have to be negative and nasty to members*. Sounds like she is looking for something that is pretty standard in practice. If you aren't going to be helpful and are just going to go into a rant about it, don't post! I was simply asking why about the dying and not casting judgment. I guess the unwritten rules here are only post what is considered PC by the majority of the forum. I am sorry if I offended you and didn't mean to open the snake pit up on you.


I disagree with what you said about "attacking". No one called her names, no one yelled at her. Yes, we voiced our view of the topic and we asked questions as to 'why'? We said why we felt it was not the best for the breed. We told her that on this particular forum, most here are not for this and thus she may not likely find what she is looking for and may best find it on a forum that show people frequent that do. This happens to be a VERY controversial subject on ANY poodle forums or chats. People have strong opinions on this on both sides and you will find heated debates on this in a lot of places. The actual fact is, whether it is done by pros or not, it is not a legal showing thing. As I said, a show I was at this spring, the judge looked at each top knot, he does not put up dogs with false wigs.... and good for him!

Now, if this lady chooses to dye her bitch and use a wig, then that is her choice and most of us wished her luck with her showing, even if we do not agree with it. If you are going to bring up a controversial topic on an open forum, you should expect some controversy about it. We may not agree with it, but we have not slammed her for it either, we have asked questions and stated our thoughts, thus it has become a polite debate on the issue.


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## roxy25

well said SS I pm'd her so hopefully she finds what she needs soon


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## spoospirit

roxy25 said:


> well said SS I pm'd her so hopefully she finds what she needs soon


_Yeah....I don't think she had a clue about this issue as she is new here. I kind of feel bad for her as it must have been quite a shock. Obviously, she is looking at this from the viewpoint that it has become acceptable in the ring to win and had probably not heard the other side of this issue until now._


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## Rockporters

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No problem! We may be showing Quincy and I will not cheat-period. If we show him and are finding it difficult competing against dogs who are dyed or have wiggies, we will pull him, clip him down and try our hand at obedience or agility. I refuse to stoop to this and it is part of the reason my Mom and I gave up showing years ago.


Jasper starts next weekend. I've tried to find a happy medium between caring for his coat and still allowing him to be a puppy. As you know, black hair stains and discolors, too, so it is easier if careful from the start. I wasn't, so he has a few places that are red/brown, thus the failed enhancer experiment. Much of it is growing out and it's not very noticeable anymore. 

My compromise has been that he wears soccer socks while chewing on a raw bone. He gets to play with other dogs but not quite as often as before. Honestly they do chew on each other but his coat hasn't taken much of a hit from that. He rolls in the grass, pulls dandelions and grass, runs through mud, chases butterflies, plays in sand and the frigid ocean. He's a puppy.

I brush him 1-2x per day, and bathe him weekly with good products. I make sure he eats healthy food that's good for his coat. Overall his coat is healthy and beautiful. 

It's not that I'm not taking this seriously, but I won't go overboard. The judges may not agree, but imo the little flaws should meet standard... they're from him being a happy, healthy, well adjusted puppy .


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

Thank you everyone for expressing your heartfelt concerns. Honestly I in no way disagree with anyone here and I think for the most part its been a level headed discussion. I do want to make something clear though because it seems that most of the comments have been mainly directed in a manner of trying to change my opinion of dye. A lot of people commented before they knew the whole situation-and just to say it wasn't to answer my question but to relay their own message. I am not happy about "tricks" being used either. As I wanted to say...my dog will ONLY be dyed in the future because she was already dyed and I will not sacrifice two years of hair growth to shave it down and wait for it to regrow. She was not winning in such a "brown" stage in her life. To me, if dying a spectacular dog at the suggestion of the handler and several people (who prefer to show in color btw) to get them finished and home where they belong is the best way to go then I am for it. Wiggies on the other hand well, yes, they are used in almost ALL Specials from what I understand. It puts enormous pressure on anyone attempting to enter their dog as a Special. I agree that some sort or system should be set up to where judges have to inspect and stop all of it...but last I heard new judges were being trained to overlook hairpieces and hairspray etc in the ring because its the "norm"! Reguardless of whether or not they do something about the "rule breaking" its happening and is obviously accepted by enough people out there just everyone is hush hush about it. I asked a question about looking for wiggies and luckily there have been a few people that cared enough to offer me the info I was originally looking for and even a few who appologized for this thread that in their opinion was enough to scare a newcomer away. That alone is enough to say this forum is worth something...I don't know what else to say but thank you for all your honest opinions and best wishes=)


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## Olie

4theLOVEofPOODLES - you were honest. Not all have been that bring up controversial topics....

I am glad you found what you were looking for.


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## cbrand

4theLOVEofPOODLES said:


> As I wanted to say...my dog will ONLY be dyed in the future because she was already dyed and I will not sacrifice two years of hair growth to shave it down and wait for it to regrow. She was not winning in such a "brown" stage in her life. To me, if dying a spectacular dog at the suggestion of the handler and several people (who prefer to show in color btw) to get them finished and home where they belong is the best way to go then I am for it.


So to clarify.... Because she wasn't winning, you dyed her as a class bitch to get her finished? Yet she is not going home, she is now going out as a dyed/wigged Special? 

And before anyone gets mad at me, understand that this bitch is in my general area and could possibly be showing against my girl (I don't think Delilah is specials quality, but a mother can dream!) It seems like an equity issue.

Just went and looked at your Member Intro and Ava is NOT even finished yet. That means that she would be in direct competition with my bitch who is coming out in June. Hope you see why this would bother me.


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

No, she is coming home from the handler and I will be Specialing her myself..does that clarify things?


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## cbrand

4theLOVEofPOODLES said:


> No, she is coming home from the handler and I will be Specialing her myself..does that clarify things?


Ok... did not read closely enough.


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

cbrand said:


> So to clarify.... Because she wasn't winning, you dyed her as a class bitch to get her finished? Yet she is not going home, she is now going out as a dyed/wigged Special?
> 
> And before anyone gets mad at me, understand that this bitch is in my general area and could possibly be showing against my girl (I don't think Delilah is specials quality, but a mother can dream!) It seems like an equity issue.
> 
> Just went and looked at your Member Intro and Ava is NOT even finished yet. That means that she would be in direct competition with my bitch who is coming out in June. Hope you see why this would bother me.


Well, your first statement of "Before anyone gets mad at me" makes me think your comment was intended to be rude and in my honest opinion I would be more worried about trying to offend someone in your area that you may meet face to face someday. Hopefully that was not the case. I am not here to make enemies nor did I intend to get in a conversation about who's competeing against who but since we are on the subject Ava is not finished but close you are right. Whether against my girl or not your bitch will be competeing with all of the things this thread has been so elaborately discussing I'm sure and I'm sorry. I wish you the best for your female and it never hurts to dream...you never know=) Ava was my pick and she's turned out to be such a wonderful girl reguardless and that makes a mother proud=)


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

cbrand said:


> Ok... did not read closely enough.


no worries=)


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## Winnow

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> No problem! We may be showing Quincy and I will not cheat-period. If we show him and are finding it difficult competing against dogs who are dyed or have wiggies, we will pull him, clip him down and try our hand at obedience or agility. I refuse to stoop to this and it is part of the reason my Mom and I gave up showing years ago.


I would not worry with Quincy if he gets a coat like his dad then he will be thick and very fast growing  

But I agree with you I am not a fan of people cheating.
If I was competing against someone who was cheating I would report it right away.


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## spoospirit

4theLOVEofPOODLES said:


> ...but last I heard new judges were being trained to overlook hairpieces and hairspray etc in the ring because its the "norm"! Reguardless of whether or not they do something about the "rule breaking" its happening and is obviously accepted by enough people out there just everyone is hush hush about it.



_WOW, hey! They are being *trained* to overlook what is obvious rule breaking. Pretty darn disconcerting considering they are supposed to uphold the rules. Doesn't leave one much hope that they will govern themselves appropriately and start enforcing the rules. 

If this is the case, then maybe the rules should be changed to reflect what they are trying to sweep under the carpet so that everyone can compete comfortably and honestly against each other. There is enough tension in conformation showing as it is without the pressure of having to decide whether to compete ethically (according to the existing rules) or do like the Romans do just because it is now the accepted norm! We're just not talking about it.

Actually, I wouldn't support a change of the rules to ignore these things. I want to see the real thing in the ring and in photos of that dog over the years. When considering a possible stud for one of our bitches, I want to see the true color and amount of hair on that stud so I know what I can expect to be passed on. The same would be true if I were considering a puppy. I want to see exactly what the bitch and stud look like without dyeing and wigging. It would be really strange to go to look at puppies from a blue mom and then see photos of her as a black champion! I think it would put me off.

I personally like comparing apples to apples. _

_Yes, I know that my opinion isn't going to change anything at this time and people will do what they have to do to win. But, I hope that eventually there will be enough people speaking out against the practice of ignoring rule breaking that they have to take notice and consider being honest with their judging._


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## cbrand

Actually, I think judges are getting better about trying to look for wigs and dying. I was at a show last fall and the judge really dug around in the topknots of dogs who he thought had wigs in.

Remember too that last September, another competitor from the BIS group complained when the heavily wigged Poodle went BIS. There were ramifications but I don't know what they were.


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## 4theLOVEofPOODLES

Yeah I've seen them dig it seems too while checking the head proportions. Hopefully they can come up with some sort of flat out regualtion and still be able to move along in a timely manner for shows someday.


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## partial2poodles

"I want to see exactly what the bitch and stud look like without dyeing and wigging. It would be really strange to go to look at puppies from a blue mom and then see photos of her as a black champion! I think it would put me off"

When I attend dog shows, I usually buy the program and write in the margins on the dogs I particularly like. I keep that page and the page with the names of the owners. I'd be put off too, if I found out a dog I liked was dyed and wigged.


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## Mj's Legacy

I think this is the perfect place to ask questions and get information. Everyone is different and we all live our lives as we see fit, weather we agree or not. It is America after all. If you use Wiggies be ready to be excused, you will be found out. I show my standard bitch in an english saddle clip, she was almost excused because the judge felt that the kidney patches were not in the flank.

Well it took some talking and lots of understanding on my part to help the judge understand where the flank is...sounds funny but the judge was not laughing and I was not excused. If you dye your dog make sure its done right, dont get caught. Hey I'll have a Dr. Pepper please


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