# Still confused about what to feed my Spoo



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Everyone is going to have an opinion on the best food or at least a good food, so I might as well give you mine.  

My puppy was a raw fed puppy when we got her. She was very healthy on that and the breeder had been doing the raw feeding for several generations. I wasn't able to continue it due to cost, but also because raw food can be dangerous if not done properly. It goes bad fast and takes diligence to properly do it. Also, when I gave my puppy raw chicken necks she turned into a wolf- the whites of her eyes showing and she attacked the raw meat like a wild animal. I didn't like that aspect for my puppy showing her wild side. In addition, dogs DO eat grains, fruits and vegetable- they are omnivores who eat mostly meat, but not ALL meat. 

My vet said that minimal needed nutrients in dog food is regulated by law, so any puppy food will give a puppy the minimum necessary to grow and be healthy. He recommended I do more than the minimum for my puppy, though. 

The dog food site you are referring to is a site created by a breed club for boxers. It is a good site, but as you will notice, it prefers the most expensive foods. I feel like it is a biased site, so don't put much stock in it, but that is my personal opinion. 

Nutro puppy is a good puppy food, better than many. It doesn't have a lot of flavor in it. To me a dogs meal time is the highlight of their day and they should LOVE their food. If your puppy isn't LOVING their food, then maybe you might want to switch, not because there is anything wrong with Nutro, but because you want him to enjoy meals.

I decided there were a couple things I did agree with that other people have mentioned. One of the things is that corn is a filler. Corn is not digested by dogs well, so I wanted a food that did not have corn in it. The other thing I agreed with is that wheat is an allergen for some poodles, not all. I decided I would choose a food without wheat in it. White rice doesn't have a lot of nutrients in it, either. I decided to choose a food without white rice in it. I do think dogs eat grains- I know my whippet will eat the seeds off of grasses and the like when we go on walks. I believe wolves will eat grains and berries and fruits they find, so to me having whole grains like brown rice and barley was not a bad thing. I also think a healthy dog food should have fruits and vegetables in it and many don't. Last of all- meat. Dogs are omnivores, but eat mostly meat. I wanted a food with meat as a primary protein. Now, my dogs LOVE chicken, but I felt chicken was maybe not the very best meat there was and beef or lamb was better (just my opinion, of course). 

So...I went to find a food that had lamb or beef as the main ingredient and another meat source within the first couple of ingredients (since dogs eat MOSTLY meat). I wanted whole grains and fruits and vegetables. I also didn't want to spend more money on the dogs food than I did on mine.  I also didn't want to make a federal case out of buying dog food every month, so looked at the selections in the stores and pet shops within easy driving distance. 

I came down to two choices that met my criteria: Wellness and Buffalo Blue. 

My choice of food ended up being Buffalo Blue puppy food Lamb and Brown rice, not the adult one. I really liked Wellness, but it costs more than Buffalo and did not seem to have anything in it that was better than Blue brand. Now I had chosen the dry food.

In addition, I wanted to flavor it even more with canned meat, mostly for my puppies enjoyment. I found that my local Sprouts grocery store carried Wellness canned foods for significantly less money than the pet shop did. I bought the Wellness canned for extra flavoring for my puppy.

Another problem: The pet shop only carried Blue lamb in small bags. They did carry Blue chicken in large bags. I bought the small bag of Blue lamb puppy and the Wellness canned. I give my puppy 1/4 of a can of Wellness (various flavors for variety) mixed in with her Blue lamb. She went MAD for her breakfast and dinner the first day. She looks super healthy now, her hair is sort of glowing after being on it four weeks. She has infrequent, wellformed, small poops and virtually NO gas. I know she is digesting most of the food- she is the picture of health. 

I solved the problem of the pet shop only carrying the small bags of Blue lamb by ordering a large bag from Amazon.com. The bags have FREE shipping and cost $47 for a 30# bag delivered right to my doorstep. I see no reason to change her food until she is older. I will also add that I give her people food as treats- brocooli, a piece of left over steak or porkchop, noodles, whatever we have been eating. I think variety is important, too and I do not believe the bits of people food she is getting is bad for her. 

My puppy is the picture of health and I feel I am feeding her the best I can within my budget taking into consideration convenience, too. 

You will get lots of opinions about food here. You have to make your own choice, but the thing that makes me think you shouuld switch is that your puppy is not LOVING their food. A dog has so little control over things. Try to find a food that your puppy drools over while you are fixing it. Bonnie loves her food- yum.

And that's my story- sorry for the book I wrote! ha ha. I guess it is a nice quiet Saturday morning here and I had an opinion.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> Everyone is going to have an opinion on the best food or at least a good food, so I might as well give you mine.
> 
> My puppy was a raw fed puppy when we got her. She was very healthy on that and the breeder had been doing the raw feeding for several generations. I wasn't able to continue it due to cost, but also because raw food can be dangerous if not done properly. It goes bad fast and takes diligence to properly do it. Also, when I gave my puppy raw chicken necks she went MAD and turned into a wolf- the whites of her eyes showing and she attacked the raw meat like a wild animal. I didn't like that aspect for my puppy showing her wild side. In addition, dogs DO eat grains, fruits and vegetable- they are omnivores who eat mostly meat, but not ALL meat.
> 
> ...


Because I can't sit back and watch misinformation given - I have to correct you. Dogs are scientifically defined as *carnivores* - NOT omnivores.

They do have opportunistic or omnivorous capabilities meaning they will eat plant matter in times of famine. Everything that a dog needs to *thrive* (not merely survive) is found in a raw diet of meat, bone and organ. They lack amylase in their mouth which means they cannot begin to break down the cell wall of plant matter until it goes into their stomach. However, because of the fast transit time, they get little out of plant matter in their stomach before it is excreted as waste. 

Also, it's pretty hard to screw up a raw diet, as long as you follow the basic guidelines of: mostly meat, some bone, some organ. And, never feed an inappropriately sized piece of meat.

And, raw meat that has turned a bit that you wouldn't possibly eat yourself can be safely fed to a dog.

*AndiB* - I would not suggest feeding puppy food to your puppy. Feed adult food OR large breed puppy food as long as the calcium levels are appropriate. Regular puppy food often has elevated levels of calcium to support growth, but you do not want this in a medium to large breed dog as it can cause them to grow too fast. At the same time, too much phosphorus with not enough calcium in the diet will cause the dog's body to begin using the calcium from the body - which will have a negative impact on growth, development and a dog's bones. This is why the calcium/phosphorus ratio is important to consider.

As far as good kibbles, I have fed Acana in the past with wonderful results. This is not a cheap food, though. I would just try and find the highest quality, preferably grain free, kibble that you can afford. And, remember that the higher the quality, the less you will feed. Tiger ate 3 cups daily on Iams and eats 1 1/2 cup daily on Acana.

I wish I could give you kibble advice, but mine eat homemade raw (for nearly the same price as a high quality kibble), so I don't know too much about kibble. Actually, my newest dog (Tiger - 6 months) is currently eating Acana but I plan to switch him to raw soon.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

See, lots of opinions are here. Thank you for being civilized with yours, Chocolate Millie.  My whippet lifts himself up on his hind legs to reach the plums and apricots in the yard, eats grass seeds and the berries off the pyrocanthus bush. Yes, wolves are classified scientifically as carnivores, but they do eat fruits and vegetables, too. Dogs are non-obligate carnivores. They are carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies. A domesticated dog is not a wolf- again, in my opinion.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> See, lots of opinions are here. Thank you for being civilized with yours, Chocolate Millie.  My whippet lifts himself up on his hind legs to reach the plums and apricots in the yard, eats grass seeds and the berries off the pyrocanthus bush. Yes, wolves are classified scientifically as carnivores, but they do eat fruits and vegetables, too. Dogs are non-obligate carnivores. They are carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies. A domesticated dog is not a wolf- again, in my opinion.


Although, scientifically, they share 99.9% of the DNA of the wolf and have identical internal physiology. While their behavior has changed greatly through domestication, the evidence is clear that, scientifically and genetically, they are so close to the wolf as to be physiologically identical, thus it would be evident that they require the same diet for optimum health.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The same diet as a wolf would be mostly meat with fruits, grains and vegetable thrown in. As I said, my puppy was very healthy when I got her as a purely raw fed puppy. I believe the healthiest diet is mostly meat, but not all meat. Fish is good, too. I do not think raw feeding is 'bad', it is just not my choice.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Since you were asking about kibble 

I have fed kibble for years in the past. One thing I can agree with Outwest is that Blue Buffalo is a good kibble. Not the best but pretty good and affordable. Also the better the kibble the less you feed - so costs tend to come close without huge increases from crap kibble.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

And nice little poops that are easy to pick up out of the grass, too. 

I don't think Blue food is perfect, just much better than most. It is my puppies base food. It isn't all she gets. It is expensive without being impossible for most people to afford. I think Wellness is good, too. Because I think the best diet would be mostly meat with fruits and vegetables, I think raw fed dogs should be given fresh fruits and veggies and grains, too. It could be a raw carrot as a treat or some apple slices- a fresh peach off the tree or a half cup of the brown rice you are eating that night. That is why I give my puppy some people food, too. Not a lot, but a variety on a regular basis. 

No kibble is going to be as fresh and nutritious as fresh food, but I do the best I can within the requirements I feel are important. My puppy looks terrific and healthy, bright eyed and energetic. I eat a very healthy diet myself, so she doesn't get things like candy, but I do give her a variety of foods in small quantities, just bites, to make up for my percieved lack of variety with kibble. 

Let me state that I do give her a small egg sized bit of raw hamburger or a bit of raw fish when I am cooking it for myself. [need I say the pup is spoiled?] LOL


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## caboodles (Jan 7, 2011)

TLC pet food is the kibble that my puppies are on now (eventually, I too, plan on making the switch over to raw). It's primary meats are NZ lamb and chicken, with brown rice.. It ranks an A or 5 of 6 stars on many of those dog kibble sites, and a great convenience for me is due its' free delivery! My puppies love it.. they've always had nice hard stools so I really have nothing bad to say about it.

Look it up (TLCpetfood.com).. read the reviews.. and if it's something that suits your price range than go for it! Keep in mind though that when switching over your dog from food to food, it needs to be done gradually.. Like usually for a few days you'd use 1/4 new and 3/4 old kibble, then few days later 50/50.. few days later 25/75.. etc. It all depends on the dog and how well they are able to adapt to the change, otherwise they may get diarrhea, in which case you would then have to spend more days at each step.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

outwest said:


> In addition, dogs DO eat grains, fruits and vegetable- they are omnivores who eat mostly meat, but not ALL meat.


I just have to add something about this. While dogs do eat and enjoy fruits and vegetables, they don't digest them properly. The proof is always in the poop!
Give your dog carrots, green peppers, cranberries... you'll see them again in your backyard decorating their poop.

Since their digestive system is different from ours, those kinds of food should be processed in some way so they can digest it.

Oh, and at least in my personal experience grains just gave my dogs allergies and made them overweight. I know this cause these issues started disappearing when I switched to grain-free foods and now that they are on raw, said problems are entirely gone.

/food rant.

That said, when I fed kibble I switched to almost every (better) brand out there without seeing the results I wanted and I still had problems either with allergies or some questionable ingredients/company practices. 
Blue Buffalo and Orijen worked best for my dogs though.

Best of luck!! Hope you find the right food for your pup!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Outwest - regarding the "all meat diet" comment - an all meat diet is actually dangerous. There MUST be bone and organ thrown in. An all meat diet will lack the calcium from the edible bone. When people feed all meat (which is high in phosphorus) and no bone (so not much calcium), their dogs' bodies' begin using the calcium from the body and the bones can become brittle as well as a host of other problems. Organ is necessary too as it provides the largest percentage of the vitamins and minerals that are necessary in a dog's diet.


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## AndiB (May 12, 2011)

*Thanks for the replies*

Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I recognize that this is a sensitive topic and that clearly people will feel differently about it.

I think I'm going to go with Blue Buffalo. That just keeps getting recommended over and over again. I understand it may not be THE best, but I think it's reasonable priced and, remember, I could have taken my vets advice and put him on Purina One! 

So, one last question..... Blue Buffalo Large Breed puppy or an adult formula? 

Thanks again for all of your help! 

Oh, and I totally agree that Eko deserves to enjoy his meal time!!


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Andi B, you are going to see lots of opinions, and that really is because what is right for one dog is not always right for another. I will give you mine, and try to be concise without being to wordy. 

Puppy or not? 
I would say either large breed puppy or adult. Not regular puppy food. 

Grain free or not? 
As much of an advocate as I am for grain free, there just aren't very many grain free foods out there that are safe for large breed puppies because of calcium/phosphorous levels (for example, Taste of the Wild claims to be an all-life-stages food, but isn't appropriate for large breed puppies because of the Ca ratio). Orijen is one that is safe, but on the expensive side. 

Nutro? 
In my opinion IS better than Purina Pro Plan or Purina One. But it is made by Mars, and has had a few too many recalls and quality control issues for me to be comfortable with. But it is a step in the right direction. Don't kick yourself for making that choice. 

My suggestions: 
Look into Blue Buffalo Puppy, Wellness Just For Puppy, Natural Balance (all-life-stages food), and Canidae (all-life-stages). I feel like these would all be affordable. Find the one that is right for your pups. If one doesn't work (I would give it at least 4 weeks before deciding that a food is not working out), try another. 

I would stick with large breed puppy food (or an all-life-stages food that has the appropriate Ca ratios) until your pups are 12-18 months old at least. Then I would switch to a grain free food such as Taste of the Wild, Blue Wilderness, NV Instinct, Canidae Grain Free, Wellness CORE, Orijent, or whatever you wish. I just really prefer grain free kibbles, and in my experience most dogs do better on them than the grain inclusive kibbles. 

Hope this helps, and good luck in your search!


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

AndiB said:


> Thank you all for your thoughtful replies. I recognize that this is a sensitive topic and that clearly people will feel differently about it.
> 
> I think I'm going to go with Blue Buffalo. That just keeps getting recommended over and over again. I understand it may not be THE best, but I think it's reasonable priced and, remember, I could have taken my vets advice and put him on Purina One!
> 
> ...


I would go with the large breed puppy  Good choice! It would be one of my top picks if I had a puppy as well.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Don't forget to check Amazon with the free shipping. The Blue lamb large puppy can be hard to find in a run of the mill pet shop. Our local independent pet shop even carries the Blue Wilderness, so I may consider that when Bonnie is full grown. 

It took Bonnie a couple weeks on the Blue to have perfect poops and have her hair start to glow, so don't get discouraged if your puppy has a little bit of lose stools at first. I thought Blue was a good choice in a decent (not cheap) pricerange and more readily available than some of the others in my area. Consider adding a touch more flavoring with the canned foods.

See how Bonnies face shimmers? Her hair wasn't like that four weeks ago on the other kibble. No, I am not a spokesperson for Blue. I do think a higher quality food makes a difference, though:


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

i feed all four of my dogs wellness (regular kibble, not core) and they are thriving on it. i have tried others, but this is what works best for my puppers. 

eva and temperance (both 50+# dogs eat 1.5 c in morning and same in evening. they are very very active dogs. 

temperance has turned her nose up to other foods as a baby, but likes this. i had her on the puppy kibble until she was 3 months then went to adult.

oh and my dogs love love bananas. when am eating one they are staring at me like it's a freaking piece of steak. they are the same w/ other fruits & veggies ...


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

I forgot to mention, I have hear good reviews about Kirkland from Costco, and 4health from Tractor Supply.

I never tried them, but apparently they have good ingredients and are a decent price.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I feed my adult dog the kirkland- it's a good food and good price. Wellness is great, too. It is hard to find in anything but little bags here.


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

if i had a costco here i'd be trying kirkland. as it stands, it's located about 60 miles away. 
i get wellness in 30# bags but lately i've been overspending and getting 15# because i'm lazy and go for convenience :crazy:


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I do not recommend the Kirkland puppy food. That is the one I switched Bonnie from to the Blue. It just doesn't seem as good as the adult dog food and I could tell she wasn't doing that well on it (totally different formula).


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## AndiB (May 12, 2011)

*Eko loves Blue Buffalo Large Breed Puppy Food*

Added some Blue Buffalo to Eko's Nutro. He gobbled the first bowl down - it's the first time I've seen him gobble food down at all! The second time he figured out how to only eat the Blue Buffalo pieces and leave the Nutro pieces in the bowl! Poodles really are so smart!! Unfortunately for him, I still have about 10 pounds of Nutro left so he will continue to get it until it's gone. After getting the Blue Buffalo pieces out, he usually concedes in a couple hours and returns to eat the remaining Nutro pieces. :act-up:

Thanks again for all of your help! I feel really good about my decision to transition to Blue Buffalo and I definitely think Eko is happy about it too!


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

outwest said:


> See, lots of opinions are here. Thank you for being civilized with yours, Chocolate Millie.  My whippet lifts himself up on his hind legs to reach the plums and apricots in the yard, eats grass seeds and the berries off the pyrocanthus bush. Yes, wolves are classified scientifically as carnivores, but they do eat fruits and vegetables, too. Dogs are non-obligate carnivores. They are carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies. A domesticated dog is not a wolf- again, in my opinion.


Agreed. Dogs diverged from wolves a long time ago. We know the dangers of trying to infer behaviour traits in dogs from observing wolves, and I am similarly suspicious of making too much of the physical similarities. Centuries of domestication have altered dogs; we don't know quite how much.

There is a good point made in "Dog Sense" (new review of dog science by John Bradshaw) ... chimps share 99.6% of their DNA with bonobos, but they are vastly different in diet, behaviour, and social structure.

Re the carnivore/omnivore argument, it may just be that we need a binary either/or answer, when actually it is more of a spectrum. Dogs seem to be somewhere in between, enjoying and benefiting from non-meat foods, but most efficient at digesting/utilising meat and bone.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

If you have a feed store close by you might check them out for good prices. We have one near us and they carry the higher end dry and canned food for less money than Petco.


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## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Dogfoodanalysis.com, while being sponsored by a boxer group, doesn't rate the foods by price, but by the quality of the ingredients. The higher rated foods have more meat in them and fewer grains, following the needs of dogs. I have found that the 6 star foods are sometimes too rich for most housepets, and are better for working dogs. The 5 star foods appear to be adequate for most pets.

Also, Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream (fish), and Taste of the Wild Sierra (lamb), aren't too high in protein for puppies (25%), but the other 2 flavors are. These are grainless foods. I feed this food to my lab and my poodle.

I've tried feeding my dogs foods with grains in them, even the higher rated ones, like BB and Wellness, but they don't do as well on them. They get goopy eyes and their coats aren't as nice. BB's grainless foods are good (I feed TOTW b/c it's less expensive), and they rate highly on Dogfoodanalysis.com.

My cockapoo is on Wellness Core Reduced Fat (another grainless food), b/c she came to us grossly overweight, so I'm feeding two different foods at my house. Not fun, but it works for my dogs. 

The bottom line is that every dog is different, and one has to find the food that he/she does best on. It often takes some trial and error to find the "magic" food. I know it did for me!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Glad to hear original poster's pup seems to like the Blue. Bonnie doesn't have goopy eyes from it at all and her coat glistens. It has some grains, but not wheat. I don't know for sure the shiny coat is from the Blue - maybe it is hereditary?-but she didn't appear to have that a few weeks before I switched her. I will be interested to hear what AndiB's experience is with the food (if he is still around and sees this). Here is Bonnies coat, which looks really healthy to me:









I do think all dogs are different.


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