# Any responsible spoo breeders west of the Rockies who leave natural tail and dew claws?



## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

_(These are my experiences and my opinions based on information that I have researched. I don’t mean to insult anybody who has different opinions.)_

I have been looking for a silver standard poodle, and over a period of many months have done a lot of research into breeders. I was hoping that at least one of the breeders I selected would be open to leaving dew claws and tail, but after establishing positive relationships with them and being approved, found that they actually are _*not*_ willing to leave the tail natural (I didn’t even get to ask about dewclaws), even if I pay the full price upfront. (I would not be breeding this dog, or showing it for confirmation.)

I’m stressed and heartbroken and disappointment because I did have my heart set on a certain puppy from a recent litter. I’m still not sure what the best thing is to do.

But I want my puppy to have the best start in life, and in addition to a responsible breeder who raises the puppy in her home, employs puppy culture and love, feeds excellent food, and uses new vaccination protocols, I have come to believe that includes not having parts of her body cut off. 

My last two standard poodles had phantom tail pain their entire lives. They were from different litters. I don’t know how common this is, I also have seen research papers and information online from poodle organizations and vets that poodles need their dewclaws that they’re attached by bone and tendon, and not only do they use lose the use of that, but it can cause tendon/leg problems in active dogs because of the structures that are severed.(It’s apparently not just loose skin with a poodle forelimb dew claw, but actually attached to bone and tendon.) Apparently, there is also a possible connection between these early procedures and lifelong heightened sensitivity to pain. Plus, full tails are not only used by dogs for self expression and communication with other dogs, but for balance in athletic activities and also are useful in swimming. I don’t want to take all of that away from my next poodle.

I know anybody can say anything online, but so far, I don’t have a reason to question the validity of the information.

Does anybody know of any reputable breeders, preferably silver, (but not necessarily), who either do not dock and dewclaw, or who would be willing to forego that upon request? 

I am currently looking at, but have _not yet contacted_, 5 Star Poodles in Sacramento, and Violet Standard Poodles in British Columbia, Canada. I believe the Canadian breeder leaves the dogs fully intact, but I would be looking at a 2- or 3-day drive each way, and I’m not sure that is the best start for a puppy — to spend all that time in the car. I could fly, but again I’m not sure that would be a great thing for the puppy. (??)

I’m not even sure if I can transport a puppy across the border without it having a rabies shot, and at that age, it would be way too young for a rabies shot.

If anybody has any breeder suggestions, or suggestions about how best to travel long distances with a baby poodle. I would really appreciate your thoughts and experiences.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I believe Cascadia in Oregon leaves dewclaws and tails. Harmony Mountain in Utah, which specializes in hunting poodles, also leaves tails and dewclaws intact. 
Unfortunately, there really aren't as many top notch breeders as one would expect. The costs of showing, maintenance, and health screenings are significant. The competition from doodle breeders and puppy mills is real. One breeder I would have recommended has found a problem in her line and is starting over from scratch; it will be at least another year before she is ready to start breeding again. I've found in my puppy hunting that being strict on one particular characteristic (health testing, color, undocked tail, geography) tends to greatly reduce other options. It sounds like you are already well aware of the importance of socialization and health testing. You may need to go further afield or wait several years to get your preferred color from the kind of breeder you'd like.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

Thank you, cowpony, you're absolutely right, it does reduce options. I was (mistakenly) under the impression that a breeder would accept a request on an individual puppy. I'm open to other colors, but feel I should try to find a tail and dewclaw option that will best serve my next dog. I have to at least try. Canada is looking more and more like a good option. I like the two breeders you listed, too. The imported bloodline hunting poodles are particularly interesting.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I understand why a breeder you might choose for other reasons would not allow you to pick a newborn puppy. There are still too many variables at the squirmy little potato stage. Breeders who care about improving their lines and matching puppies to the right homes would likely not agree to committing a puppy to a buyer at that age.

If you’re open to a breeder who docks tails but leaves dew claws intact, I’ve been seeing some lovely dogs from High Desert in southeast Idaho:



http://highdesertstandardpoodles.com/



But I understand your tail preference, and I also understand the pull of a particular colour. It can be hard to explain. I wouldn’t personally worry too much about travel time, as long as it’s doable for you. The breeder I have my eye on for our next puppy is on the other side of the country.

Please keep us posted as your search continues.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Tail docking and dewclaw removal are done shortly after birth (2 days or so). I think you'll have to find a breeder that does it as a standard practice for their breeding program. A respectable breeder won't know which puppy is yours (or their's, since most will hold back the show quality prospects) at that young age and therefore couldn't risk not docking/leaving dewclaws on because it is just as likely to become someone else's puppy. 
Good luck finding the right puppy! I wish I could help.


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

You should look more into Canadian breeders like you already have (British Columbia). I believe tail docking and dew claw removal can no longer be done in many provinces now.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

As mentioned, tails and dewclaws are done while pups are still in the animated potato stage, at less than a week old. There is no way of telling which pup (if any) would be suitable for you at that age. I'd be _very_ leery of breeders who will leave "your" puppy natural if you pay in full (and possibly a higher price than otherwise) before docking and dewclaws are done for that very reason. 

There are several Canadian provinces where docking and cropping are no longer allowed, so finding a good Canadian breeder who leaves tails and dewclaws is probably going to be easier than finding a good US (AKC show) breeder who does.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

All four of my poodle boys, from three different breeders, have had natural tails. They buying experience for each was a little different. 
The first two came from a breeder in Canada who didn't dock. I was last on the waiting list, so I got the unclaimed puppy. Then I got his brother, who had been returned. She didn't do personality matching per se, but she was pretty thorough in her interview.
My next puppy came from a show breeder who normally docks. For this litter the breeder left the mismarks undocked. There had been some inquiries from folks who wanted undocked tails, and it was immediately clear that the mismarks weren't going into the show ring. 
My most recent puppy came from a breeder who agreed to leave one puppy undocked for me. This is not something she normally does. She was reluctant to do it. I don't think she would have done it if I hadn't already had experience with three previous spoos. I wouldn't have done it, either, if Covid hadn't messed up breeder waiting lists and the Canadian border crossing. We had a discussion about whether I understood she could not guarantee color, size, temperament, or anything else about this puppy; I was stuck with the one I chose at a mere 24 hours old. Indeed, this puppy has been a surprise. He's 20 pounds heavier than what I wanted. He's slightly anxious in temperament. Can I make the relationship work? Yes. He's my shadow dog, my loving doofy Baby Huey. Is he what I would have picked out of all poodle puppies in the world? No, I would have chosen smaller and less anxious. 

The border crossing situation has changed a bit since I got my Canadian bred boys. Here's the most recent official guidance I could find:





What Your Dog Needs to Enter the United States | Bringing an Animal into U.S. | Importation | CDC


The rules for bringing your dog into the United States depend on where you are coming from.




www.cdc.gov









USDA APHIS | How to Bring Dogs into the United States for Commercial Sale or Adoption







www.aphis.usda.gov









USDA APHIS | Pet Travel - Bringing Pet Dogs into the United States







www.aphis.usda.gov


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I believe UKC allows undocked poodles to be shown, too. I've seen a few UKC breeders who really impress me for the titling, health testing, etc that they do, and several of them, esp parti breeders who can't show AKC anyways don't dock. Can't recall specific names, sorry! 

I think I recall a few parti breeders with silver partis? Maybe, maybe, maybe they might have a silver solid in a litter? 

Where in the US are you?


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I understand why a breeder you might choose for other reasons would not allow you to pick a newborn puppy. There are still too many variables at the squirmy little potato stage. Breeders who care about improving their lines and matching puppies to the right homes would likely not agree to committing a puppy to a buyer at that age.
> 
> If you’re open to a breeder who docks tails but leaves dew claws intact, I’ve been seeing some lovely dogs from High Desert in southeast Idaho:
> 
> ...


Thank you, PeggyTheParti. I understand that breeders want pick of the litter. It's too bad that docking is an AKC show requirement. And (I heard) that poodle pet adopters want a docked tail(???) I suspect there are differing opinions on that in the poodle community. Maybe some poodle buyers could unite and ask for a dedicated no-docking litter.

I have started finding breeders (USA & Canada) that dock only the _tip _of the tail and leave dew claws. I really like the breeding being done at Harmony Mountain Hunting Dogs, and they leave everything natural. At first I was concerned they might be too large and too energetic for me, but as I read more of their site, those concerns fade.

I'll definitely post when I get my new girl!


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> All four of my poodle boys, from three different breeders, have had natural tails. They buying experience for each was a little different.
> The first two came from a breeder in Canada who didn't dock. I was last on the waiting list, so I got the unclaimed puppy. Then I got his brother, who had been returned. She didn't do personality matching per se, but she was pretty thorough in her interview.
> My next puppy came from a show breeder who normally docks. For this litter the breeder left the mismarks undocked. There had been some inquiries from folks who wanted undocked tails, and it was immediately clear that the mismarks weren't going into the show ring.
> My most recent puppy came from a breeder who agreed to leave one puppy undocked for me. This is not something she normally does. She was reluctant to do it. I don't think she would have done it if I hadn't already had experience with three previous spoos. I wouldn't have done it, either, if Covid hadn't messed up breeder waiting lists and the Canadian border crossing. We had a discussion about whether I understood she could not guarantee color, size, temperament, or anything else about this puppy; I was stuck with the one I chose at a mere 24 hours old. Indeed, this puppy has been a surprise. He's 20 pounds heavier than what I wanted. He's slightly anxious in temperament. Can I make the relationship work? Yes. He's my shadow dog, my loving doofy Baby Huey. Is he what I would have picked out of all poodle puppies in the world? No, I would have chosen smaller and less anxious.
> ...


Thank you for all this information, especially your personal experiences. I've scanned the admitting requirements, and it looks like it will take careful reading, note taking, and form finding. As things stand now, the puppy would not need a rabies vaccination, which is a relief since she'd be too young. 

I find I'm really liking the Harmony Mountain breeder. The dogs will be larger/heavier than I am used to (and I like to know I can carry my dogs in an emergency) but I really like that he's mixing gene pools for healthy poodles. They all seem happy. If it looks more likely that I'll attempt to go with them, I hope to be allowed to visit to see their breeding dogs in person. They aren't planning a litter until a few months into the new year which is longer than I was hoping for but still manageable (I'm poodle deprived).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> Thank you, PeggyTheParti. I understand that breeders want pick of the litter.


And also to match puppies with the right homes, which can’t be done in the first week.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

For Want of Poodle said:


> I believe UKC allows undocked poodles to be shown, too. I've seen a few UKC breeders who really impress me for the titling, health testing, etc that they do, and several of them, esp parti breeders who can't show AKC anyways don't dock. Can't recall specific names, sorry!
> 
> I think I recall a few parti breeders with silver partis? Maybe, maybe, maybe they might have a silver solid in a litter?
> 
> Where in the US are you?


I'm in Northern California.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m enjoying browsing the Harmony Mountain website.  I love seeing poodles being poodles. Peggy’s a couch potato, for sure, but she’s never happier than when she’s accompanying my husband through the muck.


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> I'm in Northern California.


@MaizieFrosty ... I think you are in California, and tend to know the smaller and UKC breeders?


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## Sroodle8 (Dec 23, 2021)

On gooddogs.com you can filter for breeders whose dogs have natural tails.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Sroodle8 said:


> On gooddogs.com you can filter for breeders whose dogs have natural tails.


Eek. So many doodles. I filtered by natural tails and the only one on the list I’d consider is Cascadia. I like what they have to say about socialization and temperament testing. Did you reach out to them, @SilverSpoo23? They’re not too far from you.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I’m enjoying browsing the Harmony Mountain website.  I love seeing poodles being poodles. Peggy’s a couch potato, for sure, but she’s never happier than when she’s accompanying my husband through the muck.


Yes! They're happy and being total poodles, and still getting comfy and lovey when inside the house.  


PeggyTheParti said:


> Eek. So many doodles. I filtered by natural tails and the only one on the list I’d consider is Cascadia. I like what they have to say about socialization and temperament testing. Did you reach out to them, @SilverSpoo23? They’re not too far from you.



I did love what I saw at Cascadia. I wasn't sure about the hip rating on one of the parents though, so I need to research what a "fair" hip rating means for a very active dog and how likely it is that the trait will be inherited. (I just don't know enough yet.) All that said, their dogs are beautiful and I really like what they have to say and _Love_ their commitment to genetic diversity for better health. I haven't spoken with them yet, but they seem like they will be one of those breeders who does things right. I really like both them and the Harmony Mountain breeder.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> Yes! They're happy and being total poodles, and still getting comfy and lovey when inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> I did love what I saw at Cascadia. I wasn't sure about the hip rating on one of the parents though, so I need to research what a "fair" hip rating means for a very active dog and how likely it is that the trait will be inherited. (I just don't know enough yet.) All that said, their dogs are beautiful and I really like what they have to say and _Love_ their commitment to genetic diversity for better health. I haven't spoken with them yet, but they seem like they will be one of those breeders who does things right. I really like both them and the Harmony Mountain breeder.


To help with your research, type “fair hips” into the Poodle Forum search bar (if you’ve not already). There have been quite a few discussions of this topic.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> Yes! They're happy and being total poodles, and still getting comfy and lovey when inside the house.
> 
> 
> 
> I did love what I saw at Cascadia. I wasn't sure about the hip rating on one of the parents though, so I need to research what a "fair" hip rating means for a very active dog and how likely it is that the trait will be inherited. (I just don't know enough yet.) All that said, their dogs are beautiful and I really like what they have to say and _Love_ their commitment to genetic diversity for better health. I haven't spoken with them yet, but they seem like they will be one of those breeders who does things right. I really like both them and the Harmony Mountain breeder.


Regarding "fair" hip ratings, there is a specific mention that "fair" can be a normal finding in _poodles_. I wouldn't let that keep me away from them as a breeder. Although both of Elroy's parents had OFA "good" hips. 





Hip Grade Details - OFA







ofa.org


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

OFA Fair is still a passing hip score. Ideally, all other things being equal, a dog with Fair hips will be bred to a dog with Good or (preferably) Excellent hips. Personally, I don't think that a dog rated Borderline should be bred, and it goes without saying that a dysplastic dog shouldn't be bred.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

For Want of Poodle said:


> @MaizieFrosty ... I think you are in California, and tend to know the smaller and UKC breeders?


I know most of the AKC breeders in northern CA, but all of them dock. I know some smaller/UKC breeders that I like (esp. Cosmic Caliber), but they are in other parts of the country and also dock! Wish they would all stop docking!!! 

Cascadia and Harmony Mountain are breeders I would look into for sure, @SilverSpoo23! Great suggestions.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> I did love what I saw at Cascadia. I wasn't sure about the hip rating on one of the parents though, so I need to research what a "fair" hip rating means for a very active dog and how likely it is that the trait will be inherited. (I just don't know enough yet.)


In my newer days of owning poodles, I would only buy from OFA excellent or good parents. Now I would be fine with fair on one of the parents if everything else was great (especially genetic diversity).


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## Jen Jennings (10 mo ago)

Hi folks, I am the breeder of Cascadia. My girl Hazel who has “fair” hips has produced 22 lovely puppies. Her silver daughter that I have kept is 2yrs and has good hips. Hips are tricky. There is a genetic component to hips and mostly environmental. Hazel hips are passing hips and she is a very active dog. You can breed excellent to excellent and get dysplasia puppies. Hazel is also from Harmony Mtn. 
Both Lori (Harmony Mtn) and I breed for genetic diversity and the whole dog. That’s one of the reasons I purchased Hazel from her. The breed has little diversity left and throwing passing hips (fair is passing) out of the gene pool when she’s a healthy dog and has produced healthy puppies would be less than desirable considering her rare genes that our breed so badly needs. 

Warmly, Jen Jennings


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

Thank you to everyone who has shared good hip information with me. I appreciate all the support and information so far. 

Jen Jennings of Cascadia, thank you for posting! That's good to know "fair" is still good and can produce a "good" pup.

I would love to talk to you about your planned May litter.  I will message you privately on this forum.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Jen Jennings said:


> Hi folks, I am the breeder of Cascadia. My girl Hazel who has “fair” hips has produced 22 lovely puppies. Her silver daughter that I have kept is 2yrs and has good hips. Hips are tricky. There is a genetic component to hips and mostly environmental. Hazel hips are passing hips and she is a very active dog. You can breed excellent to excellent and get dysplasia puppies. Hazel is also from Harmony Mtn.
> Both Lori (Harmony Mtn) and I breed for genetic diversity and the whole dog. That’s one of the reasons I purchased Hazel from her. The breed has little diversity left and throwing passing hips (fair is passing) out of the gene pool when she’s a healthy dog and has produced healthy puppies would be less than desirable considering her rare genes that our breed so badly needs.
> 
> I am planning a very diverse litter in May 2023. If you have any questions please reach out. ☺🥰
> Warmly, Jen Jennings


Glad you chimed in.


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## hopiwmn (3 mo ago)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> _(These are my experiences and my opinions based on information that I have researched. I don’t mean to insult anybody who has different opinions.)_
> 
> I have been looking for a silver standard poodle, and over a period of many months have done a lot of research into breeders. I was hoping that at least one of the breeders I selected would be open to leaving dew claws and tail, but after establishing positive relationships with them and being approved, found that they actually are _*not*_ willing to leave the tail natural (I didn’t even get to ask about dewclaws), even if I pay the full price upfront. (I would not be breeding this dog, or showing it for confirmation.)
> 
> ...


I have spent some time speaking with the owner of Violet Standard Poodles, too, and was seriously considering getting one of her puppies. What I was told, concerning the Rabies vaccine for a young puppy and crossing the border, was that it was NOT a problem with a puppy that is obviously too young to receive the vaccine. 
That being said, I would double check with the Border Authority in your state/area to make sure.
Like you, I have been put off getting one of her puppies--the only reason being the travel to and from. I live in Southern California, so I also would have a really long drive.
Let me know what you decide.
I am currently under contract with a breeder I am having more and more concerns about: Lakeview Standard Poodles, in Lakeport, CA. You can see my post elsewhere. Best of luck to you!!!


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## hopiwmn (3 mo ago)

Jen Jennings said:


> Hi folks, I am the breeder of Cascadia. My girl Hazel who has “fair” hips has produced 22 lovely puppies. Her silver daughter that I have kept is 2yrs and has good hips. Hips are tricky. There is a genetic component to hips and mostly environmental. Hazel hips are passing hips and she is a very active dog. You can breed excellent to excellent and get dysplasia puppies. Hazel is also from Harmony Mtn.
> Both Lori (Harmony Mtn) and I breed for genetic diversity and the whole dog. That’s one of the reasons I purchased Hazel from her. The breed has little diversity left and throwing passing hips (fair is passing) out of the gene pool when she’s a healthy dog and has produced healthy puppies would be less than desirable considering her rare genes that our breed so badly needs.
> 
> I am planning a very diverse litter in May 2023. If you have any questions please reach out. ☺🥰
> Warmly, Jen Jennings


I would sure like to speak with you concerning the possibility of getting a puppy from you. One of my concerns is the prey drive that your dogs may have and I hope you can tell me more about what to expect from one of yours. i have a 29 year old Amazon Parrot here at home and want to make sure he will be safe. Thank you!! I'm so glad you posted here.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Here's her website.
Standard Poodle Breeder | Cascadia Standard Poodles | United States (cascadiaspoo.wixsite.com)


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

hopiwmn said:


> I would sure like to speak with you concerning the possibility of getting a puppy from you. One of my concerns is the prey drive that your dogs may have and I hope you can tell me more about what to expect from one of yours. i have a 29 year old Amazon Parrot here at home and want to make sure he will be safe. Thank you!! I'm so glad you posted here.


Hi, @hopiwmn. And @Jen Jennings, too.  We love puppy news, and we love happy connections, but our community rules do not allow animal sales, and we have to be strict on this because of the constant threat of scams and scammers and other unscrupulous folks. Please be sure to conduct any sales-related conversations off the forum.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

*Information Update*

_Disclaimer: the generalized breeders I refer to below are ones who seem to me to be responsible, do appropriate health testing, raise the puppies lovingly, and try to make good matches with their breeding decisions.

Again, my feelings on cutting off the dewclaws and tail are mine, and I'm not trying to insult people who hold different opinions. And I appreciate the understanding and support this forum has so generously offered. _
--

*I just wanted to update everyone on my general findings: *
Canadian breeders (I've contacted several, a small sample so this isn't definitive, though I skipped contacting breeders whose dogs sported obviously short tails or where the website stated tail/dewclaw removal) seem as likely to dock as US breeders, and almost as likely to remove dewclaws. This was a surprise to me. I thought I must be looking in the wrong provinces, but upon further research found that while laws may be in place, breeder discretion seems to be the deciding factor. 

There are _wonderful_ poodles available over the border, as there are here in the US. In both countries, I've found breeders who leave dewclaws intact and who say they dock just the very end of the tail, and this is beginning to seem like a necessary/acceptable compromise if I want to get a poodle in less than a year or two. 

In the US, I have found only a couple of breeders who leave the full tail and dewclaws. They seem truly exemplary, the poodles are gorgeous, and the breeders seem meticulous and beyond responsible. One I heard from (post available in this thread) has been kind, informative, and gracious. Another I haven't heard back from yet (no judgement--between raising dogs, kids, and the holidays, it's a busy time).

My personal preference has been for a smaller Spoo who can (somewhat) fit in my lap and be carried by me in an emergency. This however is just a strong want, and I am open to larger fluffy love poodles. I only bring this up because in the US, the fully natural dewclaw/tail Spoo seems to come with a larger size and heavier muscles and bone structure. I don't see these as negatives (caveat of carrying aside), and they truly seem like prime specimens and very poodley in heart and spirit. These litters seem to be available less frequently. Again likely a sign of responsible breeding plus the fact that there are so very few of them(!!!), but this makes these puppies less available.

I've personally been on an emotional rollercoaster, desperately missing my poodles, who were reds. It feels hard to consider getting reds because I see my previous poodles when I look at red pups, and that would be unfair to the new Spoo, who should be free to be itself and not a duplicate of my transitioned dogs. So I turned to silver, and now am considering apricot, cream, and (true) blue. I'm trying to discern how important this is to me. I do know I got daily joy not only from my love of my Spoos, but their gorgeous color. I know it "isn't supposed to matter," but I think in some ways it does, otherwise we wouldn't have so many poodle colors and breeders trying to perfect those colors. And we wouldn't have people who _need_ this or that color. It's probably just how our human brains are wired, something our beloved poodles are above caring about.

I feel emotionally drained. Emotionally I _had_ a pup and then had to let that go when I couldn't request/pay to skip docking/de-dewclawing -- oversimplified, but this is already a long post. Then trying to find a natural poodle with all it's parts still attached so it can have the fullest life possible according to research I've seen, plus my own experiences with my poodles who did suffer longterm effects, etc. And I need to come to a point of clarity. Take a break and return later? Or perhaps the best thing is to get a Spoo soonest and then get on with life. 🙃

I know this is a wide ranging update and a more personal one, but it has been all-encompassing for me for a while. I'm hoping some of what I've found might help others who are looking for unmodified or less-modified poodles, and also hoping that me admitting I'm suffering through what I had believed would be a joyous process might help me.

Thank you all again for being kind and welcoming in my first post. 💕


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Have you looked at Finesse and Bellini in Ontario and Quebec? 

They do smaller standards, and I believe, don't dock. Quite far from you but might be worthwhile. I think I saw one of them was planning a litter with blues and cafes- still no silver, though! 

I was very lucky when I was choosing poodles - my colour of preference was black, which is quite possibly the most common colour so it's a bit hypocritical of me to suggest anyone should get anything but their preferred colour! 

Still, I don't think I've ever seen a well bred poodle that isn't stunning, no matter the colour. Annie gets compliments every time I walk her in town - a black poodle with a spring in her step is a gorgeous sight in person, although as we've discussed on this forum, blacks seem to be going out of fashion possibly partially because they don't photograph as well. 

I think, there are so few 'good' breeders that it becomes a challenge as we become more specific. All the health tests, titles,socialization, a vaccination schedule we agree with, distance, responsiveness to email, colour, size, sex, time of year, docking, dew claws, age of parents, type of home they will place with.... If there are 1000 good breeders in North America (and I doubt it's that many) - the possible combinations of wants and what 'good' breeders offer are so many I don't think ANYONE will find their perfect breeder and poodle. It's a question of compromises. I see you've made a good start identifying some you are willing to deal with - time of year, distance, flexibility with colour... I compromised with genetic diversity testing, and performance titles on parents to get a puppy I could have NOW!  Colour, although one of my preferences was actually one thing I'd happily compromise on. I'll probably make different compromises for my next dog - but have zero regrets for the compromises I made at the time - I needed a dog. 

Best of luck to you - and I suspect no matter your decision, when you have a pup biting your toes, all the over thinking will feel very much worth it..


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I understand your frustration. Color, size, geography, temperament, health testing, tail docking, litter timing...no one breeder will hit all the checkboxes. It's hard to decide which "requirements" can be shifted to the "nice to have" list.
I've noticed that breeders with an interest in hunting or performance sports are more likely to leave tails and dewclaws intact. I agree that, if you are willing to fly, Bellini and Finesse in Canada are well worth considering. They mostly work with not-gigantic brown lines. South of the 49th parallel an additional option is Rivanna, aka Vom Paw Paw, another breeder with a lot of browns; I believe a dog she bred has been part of the Bellini program.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

For Want of Poodle said:


> Best of luck to you - and I suspect no matter your decision, when you have a pup biting your toes, all the over thinking will feel very much worth it..


Thank you 💜


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> I understand your frustration. Color, size, geography, temperament, health testing, tail docking, litter timing...no one breeder will hit all the checkboxes. It's hard to decide which "requirements" can be shifted to the "nice to have" list.
> I've noticed that breeders with an interest in hunting or performance sports are more likely to leave tails and dewclaws intact. I agree that, if you are willing to fly, Bellini and Finesse in Canada are well worth considering. They mostly work with not-gigantic brown lines. South of the 49th parallel an additional option is Rivanna, aka Vom Paw Paw, another breeder with a lot of browns; I believe a dog she bred has been part of the Bellini program.


Exactly. 

I wonder if I'll get different search results searching for hunting dogs. I have to do that now just to see.

I haven't mentioned this previously, but part of why I am not looking at (permanently) darker colors is because the heat gets so very intense here that I'm thinking a dark color would make the dog more susceptible to heat stroke (while on outings with me, _not_ an "outside dog"). I only had one past experience with that, so I may be overestimating the importance of this, but like you say, there's a lot to balance.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I wonder if I'll get different search results searching for hunting dogs. I have to do that now just to see.
> 
> I haven't mentioned this previously, but part of why I am not looking at (permanently) darker colors is because the heat gets so very intense here that I'm thinking a dark color would make the dog more susceptible to heat stroke (while on outings with me, _not_ an "outside dog"). I only had one past experience with that, so I may be overestimating the importance of this, but like you say, there's a lot to balance.


The flip-side of this is that light-coloured spoos can have very sensitive skin. For example, the pink skin under Peggy’s white patches is more prone to clipper irritation than her blue skin.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

I was wondering about that. I tried searching to see which hair colors have what color skin. I don't know if there's a correlation or if it's on a poodle-by-poodle basis.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

SilverSpoo23 said:


> I haven't mentioned this previously, but part of why I am not looking at (permanently) darker colors is because the heat gets so very intense here that I'm thinking a dark color would make the dog more susceptible to heat stroke (while on outings with me, _not_ an "outside dog"). I only had one past experience with that, so I may be overestimating the importance of this, but like you say, there's a lot to balance.


That was actually my reasoning for choosing a cream/white dog when I lived in Chico, CA, which has hell-on-earth summer temperatures. Frosty has dark skin, so he has never burned, but then again, I would never walk my dogs at a time when it was too hot/sunny. We go out in the early mornings or the evenings.


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

Hi MaizieFrosty, I agree, protect from the too sunny times of day. (I have to protect myself from that too  ) Though the two times I had emergencies, it wasn't too hot that morning and we were shaded. one was a heat stroke seizure (I had VERY high energy poodles) so regularly let them run off energy. Must have been a bad day because frisbee turned into a drive to the vet to be sure she was ok.

I like dark colored dogs, but thinking of them being even hotter than necessary seems like not the best idea.

Another emergency was a slipped disc resulting in instant paralysis - not temperature related, but a long, slow carry across a large field. It was horrible to feel helpless to get her to medical attention fast. While not heat related, it does speak to my concern to be able to carry a dog in case of emergency.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Oh, both of these events sound very scary, @SilverSpoo23 ! Even when mine are stir-crazy bonkers, I won't let them exercise if it's too hot. Like children (and some adults), they just don't know their limits.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I just remembered this but not sure how active or helpful it might be. (I hope the CKC is CanKC)

(20+) Pure Undocked Poodles, AKC, UKC & CKC | Facebook


Copying this from a 3y old reddit thread. The breeder names are familiar to me. The brief history behind docking was not (I haven't looked into this yet). I think the breeders are also in the Breeder List but I was selecting only for breeders doing OFA testing.

_Propert's Way Poodles:__ Mostly a Facebook presence. Up in Western New York. (state!) I found them through research on Natalie Green Tessier, who founded the Poodle Diversity Project and the BetterBred project, a project which intends to breed more obscure genetics back into the main population of dogs to correct for the genetic bottlenecking of the 60s. If you're interested in genetics at all, I recommend reading her website! She doesn't breed anymore, but there's a wealth of information there which has been tiding me over while I make my own preparations for a puppy in the coming years.

Anyway, Propert's way does genetic testing (as part of the betterbred project), they health test (ofa, eyes, genetic conditions), they neither dock, NOR remove dew claws, and! They raise their dogs with puppy culture (a program designed to desensitize dogs to stimuli so that they will, theoretically, be more confident and comfortable in their new homes). There's a video on her facebook of all her puppies of one litter sitting peacefully and not even whining while they're blasted with an industrial-strength hair dryer after a bath. It blew my mind! And plenty of videos of the dogs rambling around the woods with their people and the adult poodles.Also, they just had a 15 pup litter (which, WOW that's a lot of work! they're 11 weeks old now i think?), and five of the puppies are as of yet unclaimed, so if you're in a rush, that's an option! This is the breeder I intend to go with when I'm in a more appropriate situation for a puppy, so I've got the most info on her.

More southward: Shyre poodles! [Facebook] presence Ohio breeder, Non docking breeder, non-dew-claw-removing, health testing, I hear only good things about them! They do breed parti poodles, but parti poodles are one of the oldest colors in the breed, and so I don't really see that as a red flag. They do have to show them in the UKC rather than the AKC because of this, and the undocked tails.

Autumn Shades Poodles: [Facebook] Another Ohio breeder. Non docking, non dew-claw removing. A hunting dog breeder, they do their OFA. I know less about them, but I imagine hunting poodles will be a little higher energy, and more likely to have a retrieving instinct, if that at all matters to you?

Ghibli Poodles: [Facebook] This person is a new breeder, but I think Propert's Way was her mentor? Whatever the case, she seems to be doing well so far, her dogs seem very skilled (one is a therapy dog, some do barn hunt, etc) and everyone has to start somewhere!

Perigeaux Standard Poodles: [facebook] Another Ohio breeder! Again, non docking, non dew claw removing. Poodles ought to be the Ohio state dog I guess? I don't know much more about them, but they seem fine!

Being a woods guy, I have a general bias for people who raise their dogs in woodsy environments because that's a benefit to me and my future dog, so take my breeder recommendations with a grain of salt in that respect 😅

I'm sure there are more, but, I've got the memory of a goldfish. If any more come to mind I'll leave an additional comment. That said, I think you're right to look for somebody who leaves all of the dogs natural since this is what you want, I've mostly heard tales of stress and accidental dew-clippings from people who have tried to get an undocked dog from a docking breeder.

This also said, and you will hear this as pushback from people who like docked tails (which they are valid to like and want!) genetically speaking, a poodle's tail is not weaker if it has been left undocked, nor is it substantially likely to have bad skin or hair on the tail. Plenty of poodles however do have naturally "gay" (really curly!) tails, which is considered a fault in the AKC And UKC and so docking is a way to "correct" for that, by cutting the tail so that the part that would be curled isn't there.

Although the practice goes back to the romans (who thought it would prevent rabies) Docking became common practice in the 1600s in Europe to separate companion (undocked, taxable) dogs from working (docked, not-taxed) dogs. Even corgis, who often have a gene for a bobbed tail, do not have genetically "weaker" tails when one without the bobbed gene who isn't docked surfaces. This is a myth. Yes, your dog may mangle their tail in exuberance, or may mangle a dew claw in the woods, but your dog might also tear their acl or hurt a knee, sometimes accidents happen!_

----

I'd expect that with so few quality breeders overall and an even smaller number who don't dock or remove dewclaws, they would likely know who else to refer you to.



SilverSpoo23 said:


> Does anybody know of any reputable breeders, preferably silver, (but not necessarily), who either do not dock and dewclaw, or who would be willing to forego that upon request?


The reason so few don't dock is that, although tails don't have to be docked to show in the AKC venues, docked tail is more accepted, therefore more likely to be competitive.

They are also usually breeding with purpose, looking for best examples of poodledom to put into the ring. This means waiting weeks, sometimes several months to know which pup, if any, might have show potential.

Since the removals are done around 3d old, this means that it's not realistic for them to forego the procedures, even for full payment upfront.

UKC was mentioned, I'm sure. They are more open to showing undocked.

*United Kennel Club*
*Home | United Kennel Club (UKC)*
United Kennel Club (UKC) is an international dog registry celebrating bonds, rewarding ability, and preserving the value of a pedigree.
www.ukcdogs.com

*United Poodle Association*
http://www.unitedpoodleassociation.com/


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## SilverSpoo23 (2 mo ago)

Hi Rose n Poos,

Thank you so much for all of this information. I’m looking at the breeders you mentioned right now. 
(I recently found a couple of the ones you listed just days ago. I’ve been looking for so long and still finding breeders that I managed not to find in my last hundred searches …)

I didn’t see your post until today — I think because of my Spoo-searching induced haze. Thank you again for this information. <3


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