# HELP!



## BuzzysMom1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Hello everyone please help me. My mental health depends on it and Urbie's health depends on it. OK here we go, brought Urbie home at 8 weeks. At the time, the breeder told me to feed him Purina Pro Plan chicken and rice for large breeds. Let me say, Urbie has been eating it without an issue.; he is now 14 months. About a month ago, nonstop issues (Non-stop scratching, biting his skin, soft stools, diarrhea, eye and ear infections). I put him on a bland diet (Chicken & Rice W/Pumpkin) all good. I start slowly adding the kibble over 7-10 days time. As soon as I get to the half and half loose stools or diarrhea or both. I start him back with the same process and the same results. Please understand I suffer from anxiety, like went to a Psychiatrist with real diagnosis. I took Urbie to the vet spent a lot of money, there is nothing wrong with him. I have been so stressed, I have cried, I am now calling out of work. At this point, I think it might be the PPP. What are you all feeding your standards? I need some resolve. I ordered Hill's Science at the recommendation of someone this morning. However, I just want to see what everyone says. Thank you for reading.


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## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

At our vet's recommendation, we use Royal Canin for poodles and Normie likes it.

Did the vet fail to see evidence of the non-stop scratching, biting his skin, soft stools, diarrhea, eye and ear infections?

If it were me, I'd collect a few of those soft stools and video the scratching and take pictures of the eye infections and find another vet.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Might be food insolence, Pia's showed up around that age with similar symptoms. I was told to try novel proteins. Fish worked best Pia eats Heath Extensions Whitefish and Buffalo.


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## bree94 (11 mo ago)

@BuzzysMom1 --so sorry to hear you are going through this!!! I've been fighting digestive issues with my new pup Nellie from 8 weeks old to now 6 months old. It is absolutely maddening! There is light at the end of the tunnel though. It sounds like you need to try him on a different kibble! Nellie (after bouts of stomach bacteria, parasites, and antibiotics) went from tolerating her original kibble to no longer. I tried to switch her off a chicken / rice diet back to her kibble and it was explosive. 

Here is my recent thread on it (literally last two weeks), everyone had such helpful information and recommendations! 

Puppy Food For Sensitive Tummies The Million Dollar Question

You can also find the threads I've started here via my profile to see the chronicles of Nellie's upset stomach. 

Long story short, I bought 3 different kibbles for Nellie to try. From @twyla 's recommendation in my thread, I offered Nellie Health Extensions Whitefish and Buffalo. This was her favorite out of three bowls laid out. So I slowly (over a week) started transitioning her over and IT'S WORKING! We are on day 3 of 100% dry kibble and Nellie has super healthy stools again. 

I'm not sure if you have him on a Probiotic? I was using Fortiflora and just switched it up to Vetnique - Profivex which have been yielding great results so far. 

Nellie has not had issues with allergies as much (scratching, biting, goopy eyes) --however in the past my female GSD was SUPER sensitive to corn. If she had any kibble with corn in it, she would get so itchy you couldn't even touch her without her skin crawling. She got yeast infections, hot spots (nassty), UTI's.. As soon as I switched her to a grain free diet, it cleared up in just a couple weeks. Amazing! She's now 12 years old and going strong. No allergy issues.

Please look through the thread linked above though, lots of useful input from the great folks of PF and it worked for me. First time in 6 weeks that Nellie is on a Kibble diet again and has solid stools. 

Sending hugs! It's so distressing and time consuming cooking for them and cleaning up nasty stool messes. Not to mention it's just sad seeing how uncomfortable they are. 

Not sure what kind of kitchen tools you have at your disposal, but my boyfriend and I started bulk cooking / meal prepping since Nellie was eating chicken / rice / pumpkin for weeks. Dump a bag of frozen chicken breasts in the instant pot for 45 minutes, cook a couple cups of rice in the rice cooker. When it's done, we started putting it in the kitchen aid mixer and adding the pumpkin too it. Then we'd have big gallon Ziploc bags of pre-mixed food for her. That provided SO much relief. It took us about 5 hours after work (including waiting on cook times, so we were doing other things) to cook up 5 gallons of this mix. Which lasted us for a couple weeks (admittedly she is smaller, but eats a ton and my 70lb senior border collie was also on a chicken / rice diet at the same time). 5 gallons went a lot farther than we thought it would.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

First, I don't think there is any single correct way to feed a dog. Every dog is an individual. Don't get hung up on someone else's idea of a perfect diet for your dog. Do what works for your dog and your budget.

I had Pogo and Snarky on Fromm for the first few years; then I switched them to ProPlan. At the very end of his life, after he got cancer, I switched Pogo over to Royal Canin Hydrolyzed Protein prescription formula. It was the only thing that even partway controlled his vomiting and diarrhea.

Galen started out on ProPlan as well. He got very ill at about a year old. After several weeks of trying other things the vet concluded IBD and allergies. He put Galen on same hydrolyzed protein kibble I'd used with Pogo. Galen did really well on it. After a couple months whatever immune thing was going on with Galen's innards calmed down. I'm now able to feed him various treats and the occasional scoop of another dog food without tummy upset. He's usually ok after counter surfing too. I could probably try another food if I had to now, but I don't see a need to change something that's working. Ritter loves the HP food too, so I feed him the same thing even though he doesn't have a medical need for it. I noticed Ritter seems to have issues with ProPlan: gurgling tummy, smelly gas, and loose stools. I have a theory that inulin fiber disagrees with him, but I haven't experimented on him enough to be sure.

So, if you are at a complete loss as to what to try, my suggestion would be to try the Royal Canin HP food. If the issues clear up give it 3 months. Then, if you don't want to continue using a prescription food, try a gradual transition over to something else. Fall back to HP if the something else is a failure.


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

Food allergies and intolerances can happen at any age even if the dog has been fine on the diet in the past. It just happens, sometimes for no known reason. Much of what you're describing is pretty commonly seen in dogs with intolerances to something they are eating. And since the problems arise when you add too much of the kibble that just makes even more sense.

If you're confident in the vet and the testing done, then i would focus on the diet at this point - if not, then a second opinion from another practice wouldn't hurt. But i would bet on the cause being dietary in some way. 

But don't switch just yet! Allergies/intolerances are most commonly to the protein (or meat) source. So when you're thinking about switching foods i would take the time to read and compare ingredients - since many foods share common ingredients even between brands it won't really help if you're switching from, say, one chicken and rice food to another chicken and rice food. 

Right?

Let's look at Pro Plan and Hills since you mentioned both.

Pro Plan Large Puppy:
chicken, rice, corn gluten meal, whole grain corn, poultry by-product meal
28% protein
13% fat

Science Diet Large Puppy:
chicken meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain oats, whole grain sorghum, corn gluten meal
24% protein
11% fat

As you can see, between the pro plan large puppy and science diet large puppy, the first ingredient is pretty much the same thing: chicken. Chicken is a VERY common source of intolerances, believe it or not. If you're going to switch foods i would pick one with a meat source other than chicken, duck, turkey, or poultry - might as well be cautious and lump them all together! 

Maybe try lamb, venison, fish, or even a more exotic choice. 

I would also ditch any food with corn or corn gluten in it. Corn is another potential problem and common intolerance. Some dogs can digest it it, some do not. It's usually considered a filler anyway. Both Pro plan and science diet (large breed puppy) contain corn. 

Grains are also a possible trigger, but there is a lot of question and research going into grain-free right now (it has been linked to heart problems). For now i would keep the grain, as it isn't necessarily BAD, but try to look for a food that isn't grain heavy. The meat content shouldn't be outweighed by the grains!

Many brands have limited ingredient diets, which may help weed out potential triggers. Or sensitive stomach formulas. I personally would try one of those before paying extra for a prescription diet but if there's no change or there's no improvement even with a different protein source then you might have to try a prescription diet for a while and see how it works.

Probiotics can also help with digestive problems and are worth a shot to try, but won't cure any allergies or intolerances. Home cooking is an option - many people swear by raw feeding - but can get expensive and can be time consuming. 

Another possibility - some dogs are more sensitive to higher protein or higher fat foods. My mini mix, Kiley, would get gas and loose stool on any kibble with protein greater than 24% protein.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

I feel for you and can relate to the anxiety. you have some good advise here - my Asta thrives on Hills. He could not tolerate ProPlan.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

It could even be a bag of kibble that has gone off and is spoiled.


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## BuzzysMom1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Streetcar said:


> It could even be a bag of kibble that has gone off and is spoiled.


I consider myself a detective, I am thinking it could be anything at this point. The good news? No mucous, no blood etc. He hasn't had any treats or anything else for weeks. I've been reading all day, here, there and everywhere. I read PPP changed its formula too. Someone told me, maybe it is time to switch his food. Well, that is fine. I just want him to be ok and I need to be ok. I cannot continue this way for much longer. Also, thank you everyone contribiting, I am reading and taking notes. It is just so odd to me, chicken rice and pumpkin plus a few pieces of kibble for days no problem with great stools. I was so excited yesssss. As soon as I up the kibble, we have a problem. We had three days of this, once I started increasing the kibble EXPLOSION. He's had 2 meals today (Chicken, rice and pumpkin) all good. Don't know what my next move should be right now. I now have two large bags of unopened PPP. I honestly don't know where to go from here. Also the Science Diet is on the way


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

Remy had a problem with loose stools not too long ago. If you look at my past discussions you'll see it. Lots of good advice there from PF members.

My vet was also useless. 

You definitely need to take in a stool sample just to be sure it's not something else.

I added a probiotic to his diet and he's still on it. My previous vet always put my dog on a probiotic when he had to take antibiotics or when he suffered from loose stools.

Sometimes it just takes a while to figure out what is going on and to solve it. No doubt, you'll both get through this!


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## Bigbark (Jan 9, 2021)

One more thing, I read somewhere that it helps to give small meals. I started feeding Remy his chicken and rice in 4 small meals per day and this really helped him. After about 3 days of nothing but chicken and rice, I introduced a small amount of kibble and it took about another week of slowly introducing kibble before he was back to normal.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

It stinks, there are no real easy answers. I tried so many kinds foods for Pia, from home cooked to raw to dehydrate to kibble and only food she could eat without issue was the kibble I mentioned, before that was diarrhea, soft stools, belching, belly pain, gas and vomiting. It took 18 months to find the right food and treats I second seeing another vet, get another opinion.


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## BuzzysMom1 (Dec 23, 2020)

Bigbark said:


> Remy had a problem with loose stools not too long ago. If you look at my past discussions you'll see it. Lots of good advice there from PF members.
> 
> My vet was also useless.
> 
> ...


I took a fecal sample, nothing is wrong with him. Like I made them test for everything. It’s either the food or how I’m switching him. This is the longest it has taken. I’m going to try a new food and see. Urbie has the stomach of steel, it shouldn’t take weeks to get him back on his kibble 100%. This is extremely stressful. Like I’m not kidding. He had loose stool this morning at 7am but nothing since. That’s because I put him back on the chicken and rice and pumpkin.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

My Babykins is allergic to legumes. Legumes are in almost all dog food because they are a cheap source of protein - peas, chickpeas, soy etc. I went through months of keeping detailed notes of everything she ate - looking through all the list of ingredients. She also didn't tolerate higher protein and fat. I home cooked for her for many years but she's now on Prescription Biome diet kibble which is working great.

There's very few dog foods made without legumes - Zignature has a couple of choices and some of the Fresh Pet refrigerated food is legume free. I use these as part of Babykins treats and it's what I feed my puppy Theo because sometimes the dogs will eat each other's leftovers so I keep both dog's food legume free.

It sounds like chicken, rice and pumpkin are not the problem - novel proteins probably unnecessary. Rather there's something else in the list of ingredients from her food that is the issue. You mentioned they recently changed the formula so I would start there - what new has been added? That may be the culprit.

You will figure this out - it just takes some patience. Took me many months. At one point we were using the hydrolized protein diet from the vet - stools improved but still quite soft - turns out there is legumes in this food and I suspect not all the proteins got completely hydrolized which might explain an improvement but not a completely switch to normal while she ate it. The vet's Biome does not have legumes in it and it's 100% successful.

(((HUGS)))


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