# tail questions, lots of tail thoughts. LOL



## outwest

I have questions about tails. A few show dogs have nice, straight tails, but after attending several large shows recently, I have noticed that many poodles have a curve towards the end of it since docking fashion is so long. I know my last poodle had a much shorter dock as did most poodles ten or more years ago, so the curve was essentially cut off. No one knew whether the poodle curved or not. 

How are the show people handling the longer tail docks when poodles naturally have tails that start to curl at about 5 inches long? After years of not worrying about curly tails in breeding (because they got docked anyway) it is an issue because it is a major fault in the shows. Some countries now disqualify poodles with docked tails (Australia, for example). How can their tails stand straight up when they are undocked!?

You can visually hide a curve in the end of the tail with the poof as long as it doesn't bend past vertical, but the curve can still be felt. Do show people re-dock in America on a poodle that develops a natural curve? My puppy has developed a slight curve at the end of her very long dock, for example, and docking another inch off it would essentially get rid of the curve, although I would not do that (don't care enough . 

Many of America's poodles have tails that are set so high on the back they look unnatural to me where you do not see that so much in other countries. What are the current thoughts on tail docking in the US since countries other than America are accepting/preferring undocked tails? What is the standard for the tail in countries that do not dock?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

It is funny you mention this. It was quite the topic of discussion at the show here this weekend. There are so many bad tails, and some so bad, that even with a short dock, the tails are curling over the bum and the pom pom is resting right on the body. Because tails have been docked for so long, it is going to take a lot of work and research for breeders to find lines whose tails are straight. Tons of work, because with them docked, how can one know for certain whose tails are decent? We are fortunate that our matriarch's tail is like a rod...dead straight. Our undocked boy's tails are beautiful, and all of the pups we have produced have lovely straight tails, but it is indeed a HUGE issue, and it is never so obvious as it is at a dog show.


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## cliffdweller

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> ... There are so many bad tails, and some so bad, that even with a short dock, the tails are curling over the bum and the pom pom is resting right on the body. Because tails have been docked for so long, it is going to take a lot of work and research for breeders to find lines whose tails are straight. ...


Are you suggesting that breeders should give significant weight to "tail curl or lack of it" in their breeding programs ? In a breed that already exhibits significant health issues, you would eliminate genes on the basis of tail curl ? How does this fit into a "form follows function" argument, or does it ? In other words, is the desire for straight tails purely an aesthetic preference ? If I remember correctly, canine _nature_ tends toward tails that curve over the back. Perhaps _nature_ has a reason for that, even if we don't know what that reason is.

Though perhaps introducing its own distortions, the documentary, "Pedigree Dogs Exposed", does present a noteworthy veracity concerning these issues.


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## outwest

*here are the tail standards for a number of countries*

Maybe what they really need to do is change the standard to make it a minor fault, not a major one. That will give breeders time to try and get some straight tails. I would hate a wonderful dog to lose over a so-so dog because of a tail! I was surprised how long the dock was on my puppy until I saw all the current show dogs with their long docks (and many of them curling). 

I looked up the Australian Kennel Club standard as I was told they can not dock, but apparently they can, so I was given false information. Then I got curious and hunted up several countries tail standards:

Australian Kennel Club:
Docked: Set on rather high, well carried at a slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over the back, thick at the root.
Undocked: Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible.

Canadian Kennel Club:
Tail
Set on high, carried up, and may be docked. The tail set is distinctly ahead of the pinbone. Never curled nor carried over the back.

American Kennel Club:
Tail straight, set on high and carried up, docked of sufficient length to insure a balanced outline. _Major fault_: set low, curled, or carried over the back.

United Kennel Club (United States):
The tail is straight, set high, and normally docked to a length proportionate to the size of the dog. Whether standing or moving, the tail is carried erect.
_Serious Faults_: Low tail set, tail curled or carried over the back.

United Kingdom:
Tail
_(Previously customarily docked). _Docked: Set on rather high, carried at slight angle away from the body, never curled or carried over back, thick at root. 
Undocked: Thick at root, set on rather high, carried away from the body and as straight as possible. 

Here is the standard poodle winner at Englands Crufts for 2011- now tell me that gorgeous dog doesn't have a curl at the end of his tail! 
Pine-Haynes' Ch Vicmars Rave On JW
Winner of the Utility Group at Crufts 2011










I attached a picture that shows the curve in Bonnie's tail. She is four months in the picture. It is right at the last inch. Her tail doesn't go past vertical and she holds it up, but the curve is clear. Hers isn't even as pronounced as a lot of show dogs I saw, so the judges must be looking past it or those dogs wouldn't be showing...or, are they not winning in the US?


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## outwest

You will notice in England they want the tail slightly at an angle away from the body, not straight up like in the US. The US is the only country that wants them straight up/vertical. That seems like an unnatural position for a tail to me, but it is good looking that way.


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## Fluffyspoos

I personally don't mind the curve, as long as the tail set is high I'm in love. I even think tail sets that are gay, curled over the back, and natural look beautiful. I'd love to see this over a low tail set, which my Vienna has unfortunately.

Her tail set is so low that the bottom of her tail is discolored from getting wet after she urinates. It's not yellow, it's more of a reddish stain.

This is as high as she holds her tail  Her tail is straight, but I wouldn't care if it was curly as long as it was higher. It makes them look so much more confident and sure of themselves.









Vegas has a bit of a curve in his tail, and he normally holds his tail higher than this, and it's all scraggly from the show and moisture, but I think his tail is CUTE CUTE


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

nu2poodles said:


> Are you suggesting that breeders should give significant weight to "tail curl or lack of it" in their breeding programs ? In a breed that already exhibits significant health issues, you would eliminate genes on the basis of tail curl ? How does this fit into a "form follows function" argument, or does it ? In other words, is the desire for straight tails purely an aesthetic preference ? If I remember correctly, canine _nature_ tends toward tails that curve over the back. Perhaps _nature_ has a reason for that, even if we don't know what that reason is.
> 
> Though perhaps introducing its own distortions, the documentary, "Pedigree Dogs Exposed", does present a noteworthy veracity concerning these issues.


I loved this documentary and have watched it several times. I was merely passing on that this was a big topic of discussion at the show this weekend.
Form over function? NEVER! I would much rather see a gay or curled tail on a healthy, otherwise well structured dog, who has a great temperament, than vice versa. It is however considered a fault according to the breed standard, and if it does become customary to not dock, because we have for so long, it is going to become quite the challenge for those breeders who need to find lines without curled or gay tails to do so.


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## cliffdweller

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I loved this documentary and have watched it several times. I was merely passing on that this was a big topic of discussion at the show this weekend.
> Form over function? NEVER! I would much rather see a gay or curled tail on a healthy, otherwise well structured dog, who has a great temperament, than vice versa. It is however considered a fault according to the breed standard, and if it does become customary to not dock, because we have for so long, it is going to become quite the challenge for those breeders who need to find lines without curled or gay tails to do so.


The other option, suggested by the documentary (and, perhaps, in a fashion, by outwest) is to alter the emphases of our Breed Standards (judging) so that things other than purely aesthetic qualities are given more weight than they are at present.

In the discussion we had here some time ago ( http://www.poodleforum.com/29-poodle-health/11789-hypothetical-discussion.html#post149179 ), I pointed out how in some breeds the really competative field dogs (Pointers, for example) bear little resemblance to their "bench" counterparts. So many arguments made in breed standards about why the dogs should look this way or that, from a functional perspective, appear fallacious (at best).

Undue emphasis on the straightness of tail could be just as devastating to the Poodle as tightness of curl has been to the Pug ... , and it's even conceivable to me that all this fiddle-faddling around about _tails_ may have contributed to the HD problems in various breeds ...


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## fjm

I suspect that high set tails are likely to curl over the back - I don't know of any breed with a very high set tail where there is not at least some degree of curl, and for most of them the two seem to go together. As others have said, I suspect that for many years this has been masked in poodles by docking - now that more and more countries are discouraging docking, or banning it altogether, the natural tail shape is becoming much more obvious. As long as it does not imply spinal issues, curves, curl and carriage seems to me to be just breed standard shibboleths!


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## outwest

I, also, suspect that high set tails tend to curl. 

What is happening in the US shows? Are curved tails winning anything in AKC or is it always the dog with the straight up tail? Obviously in England it isn't such a big deal as the #1 dog shows a curl. 

I have gone to several shows in the last couple months and tails seem to be a big deal, but some of you are actually showing your poodles in AKC. Is it a concern?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

There is too much fiddle-faddling (good term) with everything, in my opinion. A lot of the dogs winning today are so heavily over angulated, they are beginning to resemble German Shephards. It is NOT the breed standard to have such exaggerated rear ends, but those dogs are winning because they are flashy. I had a breeder from Holland, who is going through to be a judge, go over Quincy at the show this weekend because I was concerned he might not have enough angulation. After learning his angles are just fine, and actually what the breed standard IS calling for, I realized that people are monkeying with things that are going to eventually cause long term ill health to this breed just for flash and wins.


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## whitepoodles

First and foremost any breeding should be done with (strictly) health and temperament in mind, then physical attributes conformation and tail set should be considered. Once the health and temperament which go hand in hand are established in a breeding then thought should be given to the rest.

A breed can breed BOTH health, temperament AND great tail sets with straight up tails that do not go over at 11 or worse 9 a.m. or low sets at 1 or worse 3 p.m. 

Wendell Sammet who is the Guru of poodles and to whose dog I bred 13 years ago, has always maintained that Annie Clarke is wrong and that a tail set should not be set as Annie advocated in the middle of the back without leaning outward and 1 p.m., he actually said that the correct breed standard should call for a tail set that does lean toward 1 p.m. and not 12 oclock or 11 a.m. Annie and Wendell had always disagreed on what a correct tail set should be like and until the day she died Annie maintained that the correct tail set is set between the hip bones and pin bones smack in the middle and carried at 12 p.m. 

I make sure that I breed first and foremost for temperament and health but at the same time have managed to not compromise on correct set on tails.

Photos below will confirm. 
The black puppy was left undocked. Note a full undocked tail and how it is carried at 6 weeks of age. This is Onyx's tail. It was not docked but slightely tipped (one joint only not 3 as is the norm), and also note a 9 mos. old white puppy's tail carried straight up at 12 oclock and highly set.

This to me are excellent representative of what tail sets in the poodle should look like and be set as. neither at 11 a.m. nor at 2 p.m. but straight up with sufficient pin bone behind and not a tail that is lagging behind as if it comes out of the anus of the dog. There are so many dogs with the latter type of tail which ruins thier total side picture on the move and in stack.

I would frown on a tail which is set on low at 1 o'clock rather than one which is "very slightely curved over the back. Most judges will agree with this preference from my experience.


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## outwest

Thanks for the pictures! Did the black puppy with the undocked tail develop a curve by 6 months? That seems to be when they appear in dogs that will have that. At least, that was the discussion I was having at a show a couple weeks ago. Why was the black puppy left undocked since he was a show puppy? What country are you in? In the US they want docks.


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## whitepoodles

*After learning his angles are just fine, and actually what the breed standard IS calling for, I realized that people are monkeying with things that are going to eventually cause long term ill health to this breed just for flash and wins.[/QUOTE]*

Arreau:

I do and many like myself breed for flash and wins, yet never at the expense of soundness, correct structure as per the breed standards , and as you state "monkeying with THINGS"

I am not quite sure what you are referring to by THINGS, could it be in poodle breed language, conformation and bone structure, perhapse? I dont believe I have ever heard a breeder use the word "Things" before so just wondering as to what the meaning of this word signifies about poodles ?

A dog can be flashy and extreme , stalliony like and striking yet very sound coming and going with great ring presence which will hands down make him win under all rounders as well as breeder/judges.

Actually judges do prefer a flashy type dog with correct structure and bone to size ratio. The poodle breed requires TYPE and to have a hum drum boring dog in the ring which is constructed with a straight front and rear to match which some will call balanced, will not win it points I can assure you of that, the points will go to a poodle who poseses breed type as well as sound conformation... a beautiful head with a small eye and lean back skull plenty of neck and a nicely angulated rear which matches the front, this is called soundness in a poodle., without compromizing type which is extremely essential to any poodle if it is to win. Soundness in body and correct angles are not all that is required from a poodle in order to get the nod from the judges, other factors such as breed type , fanciness and style are essential for any poodle to be labelled "poodley" .

A poodle who merely posesses a straight front coupled with a straight rear and not enough angulation either in front or rear is still labelled a SOUND poodle, because both front and rear are straight, but that is not what being poodley is all about, being poodle is about having beautiful bend of stifles, correct angle front and rear with a certain amount of exageration and fanciness to give the poodle enough oomph and style to be called a poodle and win the ticket.

Personally I LOVE style and flash and breed for this big time... yet it never detered my and other breeders' poodles from winning ribbons and finishing their titles in 2 weekends rather than some poodles I see handlers dragging around the ring many weekends on end until they are finished their Championship.

A quality poodle should be done and finished in maximum 2-3 weekends at most, if not less, that is if it is a good representative of the breed and posesses type and style which is required in this particular breed in order to be labelled a poodle.


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## outwest

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There is too much fiddle-faddling (good term) with everything, in my opinion. A lot of the dogs winning today are so heavily over angulated, they are beginning to resemble German Shephards. It is NOT the breed standard to have such exaggerated rear ends....


What I was surprised at when i went to the show was that a dog with scrawny looking thighs and a gangely rear won. The rear is shaved, so nothing is hidden. To me, a standard poodle should have some muscle and substance especially in the rear end while retaining the elegance. You need some driving force. The dog was extremely flashy when trotting about, though. Maybe he was lighter for his size than some of the others so he bounced higher, but I am just guessing. I didn't agree with the judging on that one. 

whitepoodles has beautiful dogs. They seen to have some substance, too. Light, driving movement and muscle isn't mutually exclusive. I agree that to be a poodle you have to be poodley. I have seen poodles that resemble labs or shephards in movement. Without the hgih step bounce, it just ain't a poodle in my opinion. There needs to be balance, though.


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## whitepoodles

Outwest:

No, this puppy did not develope a curved tail at all, actually this is Onyx whose tail is a perfect representation of what a true tail set in a poodle should look like. 

I have posted 2 photos of him as an adult at 18 mos. old and as a puppy at 9 mos. old, so that you can see that the tail is still as "stick"straight as it was at grading time when he was 8-9 weeks of age.

The picture to the left is of Onyx last weekend when he went Winner's dog and Best of winners for a 4 pt major over 19 dogs and bitches, and over a Bitch Special.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

whitepoodles said:


> *After learning his angles are just fine, and actually what the breed standard IS calling for, I realized that people are monkeying with things that are going to eventually cause long term ill health to this breed just for flash and wins.*




*Arreau:

I do and many like myself breed for flash and wins, yet never at the expense of soundness, correct structure as per the breed standards , and as you state "monkeying with THINGS"

I am not quite sure what you are referring to by THINGS, could it be in poodle breed language, conformation and bone structure, perhapse? I dont believe I have ever heard a breeder use the word "Things" before so just wondering as to what the meaning of this word signifies about poodles ?

A dog can be flashy and extreme , stalliony like and striking yet very sound coming and going with great ring presence which will hands down make him win under all rounders as well as breeder/judges.

Actually judges do prefer a flashy type dog with correct structure and bone to size ratio. The poodle breed requires TYPE and to have a hum drum boring dog in the ring which is constructed with a straight front and rear to match which some will call balanced, will not win it points I can assure you of that, the points will go to a poodle who poseses breed type as well as sound conformation... a beautiful head with a small eye and lean back skull plenty of neck and a nicely angulated rear which matches the front, this is called soundness in a poodle., without compromizing type which is extremely essential to any poodle if it is to win. Soundness in body and correct angles are not all that is required from a poodle in order to get the nod from the judges, other factors such as breed type , fanciness and style are essential for any poodle to be labelled "poodley" .

A poodle who merely posesses a straight front coupled with a straight rear and not enough angulation either in front or rear is still labelled a SOUND poodle, because both front and rear are straight, but that is not what being poodley is all about, being poodle is about having beautiful bend of stifles, correct angle front and rear with a certain amount of exageration and fanciness to give the poodle enough oomph and style to be called a poodle and win the ticket.

Personally I LOVE style and flash and breed for this big time... yet it never detered my and other breeders' poodles from winning ribbons and finishing their titles in 2 weekends rather than some poodles I see handlers dragging around the ring many weekends on end until they are finished their Championship.

A quality poodle should be done and finished in maximum 2-3 weekends at most, if not less, that is if it is a good representative of the breed and posesses type and style which is required in this particular breed in order to be labelled a poodle.[/QUOTE]
*
"THINGS" lots of "things" have changed in the look of a Poodle over time. I just heard over the weekend that what used to be ear leathers down to the end of the nose now doesn't matter. Would this be why we are now seeing so may Poodle puppy photos with high set ears, or ears set far out from the head?

I do not believe most judges go for flash, although there sure is a lot of it out there. Allie Cowie's girl Tina won BIS at both specialties over the weekend. She is not flashy. She is a well balanced, sound, average sized bitch who I think epitomizes the breed standard as illustrated on the AKC web site. Her angulation is not over done. She is just a nice, lovely, well balanced girl.

I also do not agree that a quality Poodle will necessarily finish in two to three weekends. Every judge will have a type preference, as do of breeders. It depends on the judge's preference. You can see a Poodle go through adolescence and be a bit lanky and gangly looking when it goes into its adult trim, which, can take a little time to grow into. I have heard it said often that a dog can look more mature as a puppy, in a puppy trim at eleven months old that it might as a young adult, in an adult trim at thirteen months of age. When they mature a little, it can make a huge difference. So, some things just don't happen by the book.


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## Keithsomething

whitepoodles said:


> A quality poodle should be done and finished in maximum 2-3 weekends at most, if not less, that is if it is a good representative of the breed and posesses type and style which is required in this particular breed in order to be labelled a poodle.


Ora though you clearly don't appreciate my opinion...I have seen beautiful representatives of the breed in all colours take awhile to finish because its the Judge that decides whether or not they like the dog and not every judge likes the same thing...or interprets the breed standard the same way either

Carol Brands girl Delilah was 2 when she finished her AM Ch. title a beautiful (cafe? the brown colours confuse me to bits) bitch that should have finished sooner!

Terry has a bitch out now that I absolutely ADORE!! That has yet to finish her CH (though...she should have at the last shows I've been too!!!)

Tabatha's bitch Annie another well put together dog that was almost 2 when she finished her CH. 

so I think your assessment may be a bit skewed, because finishing that quick is NOT the norm
I think its who you have campaigning your dog just as much as it is if those dogs conform to the standard!


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## whitepoodles

Outwest:

Oh, I am Canadian residing in Montreal.

You do seem to have a very good eye for a dog inspite of not being a breeder you can logically tell what is appealing nad correct and what is not.

A poodle can be fancy yet well muscled and substantial with correct bone to size.

A big poodle goes with a big head but NOT a bucket head or a rottie's head in type. So many big poodles have lab heads which is in my opinion very offensive. You can still have a lean head with a lean backskull nice strong foreface with ample underjaw on a relatively substantial yet elegant light on his feet poodle. Just because the dog is big does not mean they have to be coarse that is if the bone to size is correct and matches the total dog. 

Onyx for example is a VERY big boy, towers at 26.5 inches yet you will never look at his head and say this is the head of a 26.5 at the shoulder dog.. He has a very lean head long and strong foreface with ample underjaw (which is so lacking in poodles these days) and dark eye.

When one looks at a poodle who sports a LIGHT brown eye or worse yet, a dark yellowish eye, it is grossly offensive and a major fault in the breed. Such poodle will take a very long time to finish and I would never incroporate such a fault in my line.

I have been told there is such a poodle in the ring these days vying to be finished yet taking forever to do so and has gone out numerous weekends yet is struggling to gain points toward finishing its championship because of this major fault coupled with other conformational faults which are quite obvious to ringsiders.

Such a poodle would need a top handler on it with lots of clout with judges in order to finish although it will cost the owner quite a bit of money to title such "quality" , and , sadly it would no doubt make part of that breeder's breeding program in future, which will add nothing to thier existing line, but additional faulty features coupled with what is already wrong in that specific line. 

I wish some breeders would study the breed standard and put their aspiration higher than they feel comfortable putting it at and aspire for the betterment of the breed rather than crancking additional puppies on the market who bring nothing to the table but cash and more puppies to feed.

As such I do admire those breeders that improve their line with each generation rather than keeping it at a status quo or worse taking it backwards.


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## whitepoodles

Keithsomething;[B said:


> I think its who you have campaigning your dog just as much as it is if those dogs conform to the standard![/QUOTE[/B]]
> 
> 
> Keith well here is a great point which clearly denotes your lack of knowledge about who is a TOP handler in Canada and who is not.
> 
> Top handlers in Canada are William Alexander, Allyson Alexander and Chrystal Murray.
> 
> Jennifer Carr is NOT considered a top well known handler and has been given my dog in past for the last 6 years because she did NEVER house my dogs kennel style. Chrystal, Allyson and Will operate a kennel and do have dogs in a KENNEL situation NOT in their home like Jenn did while she resided at her parents.
> 
> Therefore since Jenn has NEVER been considered a top handler or even came close to match the CLOUT that Crystal, ALlyson and William Alexander have with judges and in general both here and in the U.S., my dogs CONTRARY to your WRONG assessment (no doubt due to your lack of knowledge of each handler's past and present in the breed) would prompt you to say that MY DOGS have succeeded in finishing tier titles and campaigned to top winning dog due to MY HANDLER.
> 
> I am sorry to blow your bubble dear, but Jenn is NOT a top handler as are Chrystal, Willia, and Allyson.. She is a handler who shows a couple of dogs for some clients and I was among the first ones to ever hire her to campaign a dog. She has never campaigned any dog before I hired her to campaign Cole and it is COLE'S QUALITY AND PRESTIGIOUS WINS WHICH PUT JENNIFER CARR ON THE MAP IN BOTH CANADA AND THE U.S. AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
> 
> IT IS COLE'S QUALITY WHICH MADE JENN, NOT JENN WHO MADE MY DOG !
> 
> I hope this is now clear Keith and before you make such a statement please for the record, study each handler's record and please find out who has clout and who does not.
> 
> Cole has been campaigned by a handler (Jenn Carr) who never stepped in a ring with a TOP special and matter of fact it is Cole who allowed Jenn to start rubbing shoulders with top handlers NOT Jenn who made Cole.
> 
> Now.. as for Tabatha's , Terry's and Carol's bitches who did not manage to finish as fast as my dogs did, I have but one answer for you which you trully must pay attention to if you are to learn anything that is factual in the breed.
> 
> Colors are much harder to finish than those who sport white and black coats. Some judges have no appreciation for color inspite of the dog being a good representative of the breed.
> 
> BUT.... when a BLACK or WHITE poodle is dragged by one of the aforementioned handlers in the ring weekend in and weekend out, and still has not finished its title in 4-5 weekends, well.... I myself would wonder what is wrong, would you not ?


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## whitepoodles

Keithsomething;173097[B said:


> ]Ora though you clearly *don't appreciate my *opinion...[/B]
> 
> Keith:
> 
> I am trying very hard to appreciate what you are saying to me, but I find your comments to be many a times erroneous and based on misconception strictly due to lack of knowledge and whenever I attempt to convey to you that you are making a wrong assumption it is always met with a "come back" on your part and resistance, which sets the wheels in motion back and forth.
> 
> Unlike yourself, I never tried to outwit someone who was more knowledgeable than myself and gave credit where credit is due and respected the opinion of the ones who taught me to make strides in my breeding career rather than jump at every word told me only to prove a point and this is exactely what some newbies to the breed do.. They feel they know it all and most of them come into the breed stay 5 years if not less and disappear as fast as they came in strictly because they feel they know better than the breeders who try to teach them.
> 
> In order to appreciate one's opinion I have to respect their knoweldge in the field they are giving an opinion about.


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## whitepoodles

Arreau:

I totally disagree with you.. Allie Cowie's bitch is by far not average or just sound.. She is flashy but not overdone.
There is a difference betweeen flashy and over done and most likely you do not seem to know the difference, as you never mentioned the term over done. There is a difference between the two.

Flashy means SUPER typey as a poodle should be fancy and posesses poodlliness..

Overdone means extreme without substance or balance. There is a difference .

I am privy to what Allie's bitch is like since I went over her piecemeal and can tell you for a fact what is underneath the coat.

This bitch REAKS flashiness, type and style, but NOT over doneness and that is where you misunderstand the term FLASHY

Onyx is very flashy, typey yet NOT over done, he is extreme but sound at both ends just like Tina is, on a much larger scale since she is a small bitch he is the oppositve a very big male. Tina has beautiful bend of stifle and totally flashy side picture and style.. but NOT over done in any way shape or form.

Flashy is great if a poodle can hold its structure and if it is sound at both ends , it can ad enormously to their quality and makes the judge give them the nod.


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## Keithsomething

whitepoodles said:


> In order to appreciate one's opinion I have to respect their knoweldge in the field they are giving an opinion about.


you are absolutely right Ora...and that same is true at my end...

I will not fade away in 5 years Ora, I have people that surround me that have vast knowledge of the breed and I completely respect what they have to say and I listen with the most attentive ears! I'm in the beginning stages of this whole thing and I would NEVER pretend to know more than someone that has been in the breed longer than I...BUT I also would NEVER tell someone who wants to succeed in the breed that they will never amount to anything in their life...as you have said NUMEROUS times, its a sad day when someone I once respected turns out to be the complete opposite of what I thought they were


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## whitepoodles

Keith, I do agree that I did tell you you will never amount to someone in the breed. That was told to you strictly as a result of the CHOICES you made in regards to whom you chose to associate yourself with in the breed. Most people I know who are ethical and conscientious breeders would start at A and go to Z, whereas you started at Z from the word go..... why I would never know. 

When I started in the breed I had high aspirations and attempted to connect myself with breeders that were respected and well admired in the breed who had connections and who had a track record for breeding a well respected and regarded line.

I also waited to purchase a quality bitch from a reputable breeder and start with minimal conformation faults as well as obtain a health guarantee from the breeder who sold me my foundation which I did.

Waiting for the right puppy and right breeder is not a hard thing to do, jumping the gun and buying a bitch just cause she is available would make me think that you do not think you can do better and that your aspirations are not put on a higher pedestal for yourself and why I would never understand.

When you came to me asking for my advice and opinion and telling me NOT to tell your co owner that you are consulting with me, and to keep our conversation between us strictly, I had hoped that with YOUR intelligence and willingness to progress and start on the right foot that your choices would of somewhat different and based on higher aspirations for yourself and your future in the breed.

I would of fully respected you had you told me that your mentor is (ONLY) Terry Farley and/or Tabatha as they know what they are doing and have certainly proven themselves in the breed not just breeding for the sake of breeding but giving back to the breed by showing their dogs from the get go and attempting to put championship titles on everything they keep to go on with, not breed from non champions for the mere sake of breeding. As such I would of infinitely respected you had you chose Terry or Tabatha to be your mentors.

One can amount to someone in any field they choose to , however, there is a difference when you amount to a top TEN or when you amount to an average ten.

I have always put high standards ahead of myself and no matter the hills I had to climb, I would not allow myself to go for anything less than a Ten, out of respect for myself and my seeking the respect of others in my breed.

It is a shame that you misunderstood why you have been told this... Maybe now you would understand? I hope so, because you do have potential but are taking yourself backwards with some of your choices .


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## whitepoodles

Keith, 

I Honestly feel you are dragging this thread to a personal level and I refuse to play your game.

This is where it ends for me UNLESS you have something to contribute to the *original* thread, I will no longer respond to your personal posts.

I hope you understand that I do not wish to have an argument with you or carry this thread where it does not belong, so I honestly suggest that we move on to the original topic. 

Is this ok with you ?


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## Keithsomething

YOU WON'T RESPOND TO A PERSONAL POST?!?!?! You're the one who JUST admitted to telling me I would never amount to anything and you stood by it...Ora your perception of the world is so warped

I do not understand telling someone who aspires to be something they won't amount to anything...it proves nothing, and trust me YOU will never hold me back from reaching my goals

I really hope all the people that hold you in such high regard see what you truly are and how you treat people that want to break into the breed...

OH and I never told you not to tell Cherie we were Talking Ora, if I had why would I have read Cherie every email you sent me and that I sent you?...that just doesn't make sense...


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## caboodles

Alrighttttt....
I like and respect you BOTH (as well as everyone else in this thread and forum) but PLEASE let it rest.

I don't know WHAT you guys are referring to, but we're all human and no one is perfect.


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## outwest

It was about tails...


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> I do and many like myself breed for flash and wins, yet never at the expense of soundness, correct structure as per the breed standards ....
> 
> A dog can be flashy and extreme , stalliony like and striking yet very sound coming and going with great ring presence which will hands down make him win under all rounders as well as breeder/judges....
> 
> ... the points will go to a poodle who poseses breed type as well as sound conformation... a beautiful head with a small eye and lean back skull plenty of neck and a nicely angulated rear which matches the front, this is called soundness in a poodle., without compromizing type which is extremely essential to any poodle if it is to win. Soundness in body and correct angles are not all that is required from a poodle in order to get the nod from the judges, other factors such as breed type , fanciness and style are essential for any poodle to be labelled "poodley" .
> 
> A poodle who merely posesses a straight front coupled with a straight rear and not enough angulation either in front or rear is still labelled a SOUND poodle, because both front and rear are straight, ....


Set me straight (tails and all, lol). Soundness and conformation, though closely related, are not the same thing. I grabbed the following hastily off the web (so I'm sure there are better descriptions of the distinction); the specific reference here is pigs, but I think the same would apply to other animals :

"An important trait for breeding animals is physical soundness. Animals need to be structurally sound to carry out their normal _functions_ and to maximize their _longevity_ and productive _performance_." [my emphases; http://www.thepigsite.com/articles/.../2073/more-accurate-breeding-for-conformation]

Well, not much is really expected of pigs ...

To me, _soundness_ is inextricably linked to _performance _(or, as it seems to me, _function_)_._ Does the Poodle have a _function_, in this sense ? Can its _fitness_ for that function be determined by trotting it around the show ring ? How do you determine whether a Poodle is structurally sound ? It may appear fine trotting around the ring; what if it were expected to run for three hours ? Perhaps it appears sound at 2 years old and becomes a Champion, but at 4 exhibits a genetically-based, crippling defect ? Does that matter ?

OK, so the Poodle is no longer regarded as a hunting dog, except by very few.
Aside to Pointers again : most of the "bench" champion Pointers, _sound_ in the ring and conformationally _fit _insofar as THE Breed Standard is concerned, cannot _perform_ worth a darn in the field (most, of course, are never tested there). They do not just lack the "aptitude", they lack the _physical requirements _( i.e., _soundness_). Are these awkward, lumbering, non-hunting Pointers _Pointers _? Ditto the "Ridgebacks" in the Documentary mentioned above.

Does the Poodle have a _function _? Is the function just to be "poodley" (however that is interpreted) ? Why are 12PM tails more "poodley" than 11AM tails; on what is this decision based ?


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## whitepoodles

Keith:

for crying out loud, LET IT REST.. NO ONE CARES or wants to get involved in this any further. Just go on in your life and do as you please. I have no intention to hold you back.. I would not waste my time nor do I want to. I have so many better things to do with my time than to waste it going back and forth with you.

Get a life, let it rest and go work on your endeavors in the breed. Trust me you will be much better off if you do not harp on the past. Have something to look forward to than take yourself backwards. You have your mentors in the breed and I wish all the luck in the world and hope you do amount to something in the breed and accomplish all of your asspirations in it.. Why not.. you have the right to do so and I wish you all the best ::--)) 

So can you finally give it a rest ? I certainly am not going to waste my energies and valuable time on playing this with you back and forth.. not worth my time or energy.... Pls. finally lets change the topic it is getting soooo stale.


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## whitepoodles

Nu2 poodles:
As a breeder my definition of soundness is having a poodle constructed in a manner that it can BOTH be poodley , fancy but also posess structure good and solid enough to be able to withstand working in a field.

Many champions will also go to do performance with their owners, be it field work, tracking , scent, agility, you name it.. These poodles MUST have soundness of conformation in order to maintain a certain pace in the field and not collapse due to bad structure.

I will NEVER breed a poodle or keep one that is merely fancy but lacks good structure, that is sold as a pet, also I never bred poodles who are structurally deficient and can not withstand running or doing agility.

When you breed correctly and for soundness of mind and body, you are bound to come up with structurally correct standard poodles who not only excell in the show ring but also in performance and field.

Structure and function go hand in hand but some breeders will breed ONLY for fancy poodles thinking that the massive coat will mask mild to serious structural faults which in the long run will make it impossible for such an over done poodle to perform outside of the ring.

A1 o'clock tail set is structurally correct as much as a 12 o'clock tail set however many judges as well as breeders fancy the straight tail and not the 1o'clock one. it is a matter of choice and beauty is in the eye of the beholder really. BOTH tail sets are structurally acceptable and any poodle who will sport these tails sets will be able to properly function in performance however when in the ring, most judges will fancy a straight 12 o'cloc tail set. That is again a matter of choice and what one views as prettier. 

And... who said that the poodle is no longer regarded as a hungting dog but by a very few.. Many I know who do performance hunt with their poodles, do tracking, scent and even Shutzhund... Poodles can do it all in performance as well as excell in the conformation ring, as long as they are bred to be structurally sound and correct to be able to do both beauty and performance. Many are able to...


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## Keithsomething

you're right Ora it is getting old...


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## outwest

I feel a wee bit sorry for breeders of outstanding dogs who didn't have the good luck to have a line of poodles with rod straight tails. When everything was docked short, it didn't matter. It is becoming a big deal in the US. Obviously, in other countries it isn't so. 

For the record, I like the look of the longer docks, but wish more of the pups had the straight tails. There just weren't that many rod straight tails at the shows I have watched. In the case of a curve in the tail like my puppy, I would have preferred she had a shorter dock so her tail would be straight, but the curve is cute to me now. The other option is to change the standard in the US to relax the major fault designation to a minor one so that breeders can play catch up getting a straight tail without sacrificing more important qualities.


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## cliffdweller

You have offered a fair answer, thank you. I suspect the Poodle (especially thinking of the Standard Poodle here) could be regarded loosely as a "versitile companion dog".



whitepoodles said:


> Nu2 poodles:
> And... who said that the poodle is no longer regarded as a hungting dog but by a very few.. Many I know who do performance hunt with their poodles, do tracking, scent and even Shutzhund... Poodles can do it all in performance as well as excell in the conformation ring, as long as they are bred to be structurally sound and correct to be able to do both beauty and performance. Many are able to...


I suppose their "group" placement ("non-sporting") indicates that they are no longer regarded as hunting dogs. But my statement actually referenced my experience with people who seek dogs for hunting purposes : very few (none that I know personally) seek out Poodles for that purpose. Perhaps things are different where you are ? You must realize that appreciation of performance in the field can be every bit as refined as appreciation of conformation in the ring, so, just as I would be a poor judge of conformation (I have very lirttle experience with showing), someone who has little experience with field dogs would be hard pressed to judge hunting performance (or _soundness_ for _that_ purpose) ...

My experience is (and it is mostly with the field dogs that are used to point upland game : Pointers, Setters, Weimaraners, German Shorthairs, Vizla, etc.) is that much of what makes a dog _outstanding_ in the show ring (size, for example, and, perhaps, the "fanciness" you constantly reference, though I can't say I know enough about Poodles to really understand just what that means) is a detriment in field performance (hence the remark about awkward, lumbering Pointers above). There is also a significant difference in behavioral requirements so that breeding for one set of behaviors (say, those that enhance show performance) results in the diminishment or suppression of others (say, drive to hunt). But _that_ discussion is long and complicated .... the toll that showing has taken on hunting ability in hunting breeds, however, is evident ...


----------



## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> You have offered a fair answer, thank you. I suspect the Poodle (especially thinking of the Standard Poodle here) could be regarded loosely as a "versitile companion dog".
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose their "group" placement ("non-sporting") indicates that they are no longer regarded as hunting dogs. (I have very lirttle experience with showing), *someone who has little experience with field dogs would be hard pressed to judge hunting performance (or soundness for that purpose) ...*





Nu2poodles:

As a matter of fact standard poodles were initially bred to be hunting and retrieving dogs, this is the reason why their open/continental/lion trim/clip has come into being and was adopted for centuries now as the historicaly correct trim. This trim has afforded the poodle who does not shed but merely cords if the hair is left unattended to be able to swim and paddle in water (poodlin in German means to paddle) swimming fast after their catch/prey in order to retrieve it from the (cold) water. This is what I believe they were initially bred as. The rosettes are there to protect the kidney area, the massive jacket to protect organs such as heart lungs, etc... and the fancy top knot was merely opted for strictly by poodle fanciers for the purpose of the show and to balance the overly done bubble of jacket and front coat. The tail pom pom has no function from what I recall and was left untouched for beauty purposes. The shaved fore and back extremeties had a purpose for their shaved area and it was to give the poodle a chance to swim/paddle faster in the water to retrieve its prey/bird without sporting a massive drag you down to the bottom coat. So for the HISTORICALLY CORRECT TRIM (HCC) or the lion/open/continental clip as it is correctly referred to was a purpose and the purpose is mentioned above.

So poodles are in fact retrievers and CAN hunt at the same time, however very few people do hunting with their dogs , but if a poodle is correctly built and has PREY DRIVE from the get go they can go out and do anything including hunting with their trainer/owners. Poodles are an extremely versatile breed and if temperament tested (as I and many others do before selling their puppies to the public) correctly with a tester with knowledge such as Pat Hastings (if she is available to fly out and test a litter, it is $700.00 and not everyone can afford such expense or has someone who is profficient with the Volhard method and knows how to professionally test each puppy) can in fact pick out puppies with a high prey drive and other qualities which are and will be needed in order to train the poodle to be a hunting dog. Every dog who has a potential to be a hunting dog may have it at its core,but still needs the training to refine that inner trait and bring it out in order to have a great hunting poodle, and what goes without saying is that this type of poodle who is purchased strictly for the purpose of doing performance to include hunting MUST at all times meet the breed standard (which was written also to cover performance) and other traits for which it was bred and that does include field work, including hunting since they originally were hunters.

May breeders however such as myself, do not sell poodles for hunting purposes but mainly as house pets and many of my clients finish their dogs in performance such as agility, CD, CDX and some go even further with their dogs.. That is also an additional reason why I temperament test my puppies (Volhardt method) in order to know which client gets which puppy to fit into their lifestyle and answer their needs be it performance or just a loved house pet.

I also have two categories of puppy clients, first is the stay home mom with the young kids and the other category is the retired RV'ers who want a baby to love when their human kids flew the coop and the couple is now literally (LOL) childless and needs/wants a dog to have as a loving companion in their retirement years when they have more time to spend with a dog and care for its needs.

Since I do sell alot to families with young children I MUST temperament test my dogs in order to make sure that each puppy sold is SAFE and does not have a PREY DRIVE enough to not fine tune with appropriate obedience courses so that it wont run after a child flailing its hands up in the air and running amock. Many poodles or dogs in general who do have a HIGH prey drive which is a positive trait to have for performance and especially HUNTING will tend if put into a family with young children to run after the screaming child and HUNT it or feel it is a prey...and harm it potentially and this is a chance I can not and WILL NOT take by placing a puppy with a high prey drive in a family with young kids as opposed to selling it to a person who strictly wants a puppy with HUNTING abilities and a very high prey drive as a result.



And FYI Nu2Poodles, I do breed dogs who are very much able to go out in the field and HUNT as well as perform other tasks which they were bred for since I stress on conformation for BOTH performance and beauty (conformation) and if you note, I did mention that structure has to go with function in both the conformation ring as well as the field.

Many poodles are awarded who are poorly built, some judges do not know how a good poodle should be constructed and award over doneness over correct structure, that is not because they prefer a fancy poodle, that is FIRST and FOREMOST because they lack breed knowledge and there ARE and will always be pretty up on leg fancy poodle to boot in the ring who can do BOTH, performance AND conformation without compromising any of the both.

Lastly Nu2poodles you are correct in stating that SOMEONE who has little experience with filed dogs would be HARD PRESSED to judge hunting performance for that purpose, HOWEVER not all breeders of show dogs are ignorant when it comes to knowing what is needed in a poodle's structure and mental ability in order to make an excellent field and hunting dog.

Many of US who are breeding quality dogs who conform to the breed standard have not only read it and adhere to it, but also strive to breed as close to the breed standard as possible AND STILL manage to have fancy (not overdone) typey poodles who can be both, beautiful and successful show dogs as well as dogs who are structurally able to withstand performance and hunting, retrieving etc.... As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, structure is unanimous with function and is needed in each dog in order to excell in both performoance/field/hunting AND the conformation ring.

While it is true that many poodle breeders have forgotten what the poodle was initially bred for , many others like myself do still consider this part of the history of the breed and are WELL READ ENOUGH to NOT BE TOO HARD PRESSED to judge hunting performance, as you mentioned in your last sentence above. Just because some of us do not do hunting with our dogs does not mean we do not breed dogs that can and do excell in this field if and when their owners wish to train them for it.... so to make such a general statement that breeders of conformation are hard pressed to judge (hunting) performance or Soundness for that purpose is a generalization which may not (with all due respect) fit every poodle breeder but I agree the majority, but hey there are always exception to the rule and we can not go on making such generalized statements about EVERY poodle breeder, since there are some who are extremely well read and enough in the field to be able to refute such a generalized statement.

Which brings me to the subject of so many conformation breeders who sit and watch the breed and when/if their poodles lose the breed or their class, they immediately pick up their chair and go home.. WRONG.. loose or win, if one is to trully be able to judge the breed and also to have general knowledge of function and conformation they should sit ring side and watch other breeds strut their stuff in the ring in order to have a generalized knowledge of conformation. The poodle is not exclusive and many who make it a point to sit at ring side and watch other breeds being judged can add immensly to their knowledge of what good conformation and correct movement in a canine is.

I trully wish that poodles would be moved to the SPORTING dogs ring.. they do not belong in a group such as the NON sporting where you have ****zu, pug, and other small breeds, etc.... They are and were bred to be sporting dogs and should be in a group which labels them as such.


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## faerie

having nothing to do w/ the threadjack, but everything to do w/ the original post ... I am pretty sure temperance has a fairly low tail set (i am pretty sure, since i am a wannabe newbie wtf ever and don't know jack) and her tail doesn't stand straight up often. she's an afternoon gal at 1-2 o'clock. 

if she's excited it's one o'clock and if she's meh it's at 2 o'clock. once in a while she's ready for the 5 o'clock cocktail hour and it hangs low (heh)
i'm sure a few cocktails will have her waving her tail flag again.


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## whitepoodles

Faerie:

You LOVE your baby and that is what counts. The tail set is not important or serves any function on a pet.. It is strictly regarded for in the ring.. But no tail set low or high would ever be considered a fault in a PET quality poodle.

God knows I have produced dogs which I sold as pets that YES do sport a gay tail (not snappy though) and do hold them also at 1 o'clock, but hey, like Faerie says.. She LOVES her dog tailset or not tailset and it does not matter unless your dog is finding itself in the conformation ring. 

Thanks Faerie for bringing some great humor and feelings into this thread.

YAY for cocktails.. LOL


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Nu2poodles:
> 
> As a matter of fact standard poodles were initially bred to be hunting and retrieving dogs, ...


If I was not already aware of Poodle "history" ("tales" of a different kind), I would not be spending my time in this discussion.



whitepoodles said:


> ... and what goes without saying is that this type of poodle who is purchased strictly for the purpose of doing performance to include hunting MUST at all times meet the breed standard (which was written also to cover performance) and other traits for which it was bred and that does include field work, including hunting since they originally were hunters.


This statement completely ignores the point that I made about all of those Pointing breeds mentioned above. In short, emphasis on showing in these breeds (_conforming_ to THE Breed Standard and the behavioral and physiological distortion such _conformance appears to encourage_) has decimated their hunting ability, both in physical and behavioral respects. I doubt that it is much different with Poodles, even assuming that the "breed history" is something more than a fairy tale (tales & all). In general, THE Breed Standard has very little to do with actual performance beyond the show ring or bench and, in some respects, (in many, if you consider the aforementioned Pointing breeds) actually works to the detriment of that performance. You need evidence that this "loss of ability" has not affected the Poodle as a "hunting" dog to make a convincing argument here. To get such evidence, the dogs would need _testing in the field_.



whitepoodles said:


> Since I do sell alot to families with young children I MUST temperament test my dogs in order to make sure that each puppy sold is SAFE and does not have a PREY DRIVE enough to not fine tune with appropriate obedience courses so that it wont run after a child flailing its hands up in the air and running amock. Many poodles or dogs in general who do have a HIGH prey drive which is a positive trait to have for performance and especially HUNTING will tend if put into a family with young children to run after the screaming child and HUNT it or feel it is a prey...and harm it potentially and this is a chance I can not and WILL NOT take by placing a puppy with a high prey drive in a family with young kids as opposed to selling it to a person who strictly wants a puppy with HUNTING abilities and a very high prey drive as a result.


So the question becomes, what traits would you tend to breed for, given the fact that you "sell alot to families with young children", which goes right to the point of the discussion we are having. Poodles are not generally bred with selecton based on field performance. (I did not say they are _never_ bred for the field; I am aware that there are some breeders striving to improve the breed in the field.) _Not breeding for "prey drive" is exactly the point._ (This is not a criticism.)



whitepoodles said:


> And FYI Nu2Poodles, I do breed dogs who are very much able to go out in the field and HUNT as well as perform other tasks which they were bred for since I stress on conformation for BOTH performance and beauty (conformation) and if you note, I did mention that structure has to go with function in both the conformation ring as well as the field.


Have they been tested in the field ? How many Field Champions to your credit ? This is just as important (or more so) as testing on the bench, depending on your perspective. I am trying to point out to you that "show ring" performance is practically meaningless when the question is about hunting performance. So it does not follow that because you "stress on conformation for BOTH performance and beauty (conformation)" you "breed dogs who are very much able to go out in the field and HUNT". The dogs must be tested _in hunting_ if you wish to make such a claim (and be credible), and you have provided no evidence that they have been so tested. (This has nothing to do with whether "hunting" is important to you in your breeding program -- I suspect it's not --, but has only to do with the sorts of claims you are making.) Again, this is the whole point of the reference to the other Pointing breeds that have been bred, for generations, primarily for show or pet purposes without any regard for their historical purpose as hunting dogs (and I'm not talking about _reading_ their hi_story_ or _reading_ about hunting here). I keep pointing this out to you, and you persist in ignoring it.



whitepoodles said:


> Lastly Nu2poodles you are correct in stating that SOMEONE who has little experience with filed dogs would be HARD PRESSED to judge hunting performance for that purpose, HOWEVER not all breeders of show dogs are ignorant when it comes to knowing what is needed in a poodle's structure and mental ability in order to make an excellent field and hunting dog.


I did not make any statements about "_all_ breeders".



whitepoodles said:


> Many of US who are breeding quality dogs who conform to the breed standard have not only read it and adhere to it, but also strive to breed as close to the breed standard as possible AND STILL manage to have fancy (not overdone) typey poodles who can be both, beautiful and successful show dogs as well as dogs who are structurally able to withstand performance and hunting, retrieving etc.... As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, structure is unanimous with function and is needed in each dog in order to excell in both performoance/field/hunting AND the conformation ring.


Same response as above : how many Dual Champions (field/show) are there in the breed ? How can you know if the _structure _is_ suitable_ for a purpose without testing it ? Yes, I am suggesting that alot of what is said about _structure &ct. and performance _amongst people who breed primarily for show/pet is _largely_ fantasy (not _entirely_, mind you). I have offered a _bunch_ of Pointing breeds as examples (_evidence_); if you attended field trials for awhile, you would see what I mean and could make your own judgement. 



whitepoodles said:


> .... so to make such a general statement that breeders of conformation are hard pressed to judge (hunting) performance or Soundness for that purpose is a generalization which may not (with all due respect) fit every poodle breeder but I agree the majority, ...


So, does this suggest that, with very little _experience_ of shows and conformation requirements, I could still be a good judge of such things ? I never said anything about "_every_ poodle breeder". 



whitepoodles said:


> I trully wish that poodles would be moved to the SPORTING dogs ring.. they do not belong in a group such as the NON sporting where you have ****zu, pug, and other small breeds, etc.... They are and were bred to be sporting dogs and should be in a group which labels them as such.


I agree with you here, but I think it would be a long row to hoe for the breed; nor do I think it would make much of a difference, given the conditions that currently prevail in the "sporting group", where breeding is mostly (I didn't say _always_) to produce dogs for show or for pets.


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## whitepoodles

Nu2Poodles:

I read your post with great interest and I must say I admire your knowledge and opinion when it comes to a subject that you seem to be very well versed in.

Thanks for teaching me the other side more clearly than I had thought I knew as I always am open to learn new things about the breed which have nothing to do with the show ring and you have brought up many points which I appreciate, respect and took note of.

I admire your knowledge and the many opinions you outlined in the above post.

Thank you .


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Nu2Poodles:
> 
> I read your post with great interest and I must say I admire your knowledge and opinion when it comes to a subject that you seem to be very well versed in.
> 
> Thanks for teaching me the other side more clearly than I had thought I knew as I always am open to learn new things about the breed which have nothing to do with the show ring and you have brought up many points which I appreciate, respect and took note of.
> 
> I admire your knowledge and the many opinions you outlined in the above post.
> 
> Thank you .


Thank _you ! _

I _love_ dogs -- just about all animals, really. And I love my little Rain and plan to give her as much freedom as possible to become whatever _she_ wants to become. _And_, I like _expressive_ tails...


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## faerie

i've been reading up on ukc. i think it's fairly cool. focus on total dog.


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## whitepoodles

*


nu2poodles said:



Thank you ! 

I love dogs -- just about all animals, really. And I love my little Rain and plan to give her as much freedom as possible to become whatever she wants to become. And, I like expressive tails...

Click to expand...

*Nu2poodles:

More than anything on this forum I admire the people who come to learn and are open to what others have to say IF they make sense and bring something to the table

You most certainly did which I do appreciate immensly, and like me and many others you have a PASSION for your dogs and dogs in general.

Even breeders can learn from novices if the conversation brings something to the table and the opinions of the novice and/or non breeder make sense and are based on personal experiences or information acquired from the source.

I can always stand corrected and appreciate when there are members here that I can learn and sponge info from.. 

Again thanks !


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## NOLA Standards

Interesting thread, ladies (and gentlemen).

Regarding hunting poodles - try googling "Cooper". He is featured in this issue of Gun Dog Magazine and in another magazine in CA and a German magazine (I think, as I can read French and Spanish and can't make out the title of the mag - sorry!).

Rich and Angie hunt - avidly -with their poodles and breed for the field. Cooper is approved to working bitches only. Now, can't say he should go in the conformation ring.._or that he shouldn't_ - please register that, ok!

Poodles - all breeds, really - are in the ring based on 2 things. Conformation AND temperment/attitude. A poodle with the most amazing structure can go in the ring -but lacking in "poodley attitude" it won't go up. It's that intangible that makes a dog showey.

Think Lido's Tequila Sunrise for instance. Over and over again I have been told Tequila wasn't perfect -but he owned the ring. That describes many of the greats. You can say they could have had a better X - but how they surpassed all others was in their presentation of themselves.

Remember, it's a dog SHOW. (Please do not use this as an opportunity or excuse for not proving your dog in the ring. Get out there and get a freakin point - show you tried before you breed your dogs crosseyed to sell puppies. There - hope I headed off that excuse of a thread.)

Now, Angie has recently taken some "guff" from a show breeder (and not one of any reknown so bringing her up gives her more credit than she even deserves) about not having conformation titles on her hunting dogs. My thought there...put a dud with the right handler and haul it around long enough and it can get a conformation title - but not all dogs can excel in the field and I do not believe conformation - fancy or overdone or plain as a paper sack and straight as a 2x4 in the rear- effects that. 

For a field dog you are looking for prey drive and instinct - willingness/ability to learn and desire to please. (my dad trained labs for years) But, whether right or wrong - that's not necessarily what we breed for. Am I wrong to not have "hunting dog" at the top of my list? I do not want to hunt. I do not like mosquitos or getting up early or being quite for long periods of time...or being cold or wet or... I do not like killing another animal...I do however, love venison stew.


I won't speak to the titles Angie and Rich have on theri animals - but they are well documented and she breeds for it, so you'll be able to find them. However, in breeding for performance she does not ignore the breed standard - from points to structure. She and Rich are the exception. There interest and activity is very different from most of us (in the fancy - can't speak for the pet breeders).

For AKC CH "Annie" - she is going after her CAT title next weekend. And I do mean going after  She wasn't bred with that in mind - and she won in the ring - but the drive is there, the excitment and desire to chase down the napkin turns her deaf until it's over (I'm working on it! ha).

She achieved her CH title. Structurally she's correct. Type is "pretty". I'd love refined and even flashy - but she's not. She's small and therefore doesn't cover a lot of ground with her reach and drive (if she did she wouldn't be correct based on her angles and arm). However, she's fast and quick to cut. (She has fabulous feet. Think that does it???)

There. My perfectly worthless thoughts on the intangibles.


Oops - forgot the tails...

Somehow, there's lots of discussion on gay tails overlooking a tail carried low or low set or both. Can NOT stand a low tail or a tail that is not carried. Just takes away from the look of the well bred poodle. My opinion and the one that counts to ....ME :aetsch: However, I remain confused by those who continue to breed low tail sets while gagging at gay tails. *They are both conformation faults.*


Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS. I interviewed a judge once - an all breed judge who said poodles were his favorite breed to judge. Poodliness - what a concept. The self awareness in the twinkle in the eye - the lift of the head - the stance with the chest thrust forward...


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## whitepoodles

Nola:

Another post which is enjoyable and brings good stuff to the table. 

I must say Nola that with breeders such as yourself the RED poodle is in great hands.

I really admire the fact you do not breed your girls to merely create pets but are out there trying your best to prove your line in the ring and gain championships on puppies you have bred. 

This shows committment to the breed and ethics combined with a will to improve the reds. Kudos to you.

Love your double spread advertisement in Poodle Variety and is this you pictured handling your dog on the left hands side page ? 

Unlike some other RED breeders I know, you go out, and with each litter you breed, show a puppy or two trying to improve the red by putting them in the ring and seeking judges' and other breeders' opinion of the quality of your puppies and this is commendable especially for a breeder/owner/handler of colors. 

It is hard enough to owner handle a black or white dog which is a common sight in conformation these days, but to owner handle a red .....you have my respect !

It is indeed a great shame that some other Red breeders do not follow your example and try to improve their line with each litter bred rather cranck up litter after litter of pet quality puppies who never will improve the reds as not much aforethought or planning is put into such futile breedings.

You trully have my respect.


And.. Oops, I forgot to also respond to an excellent point you have made and it is ATTITUDE AND SHOWMANSHIP in the ring and yes folks this is one of the most important qualities a dog has if it is to succeed at all as a special. Who wants to judge a beautiful specimen of the breed, who trots with his head lowered and tail at mast. I would rather have a dog with a tad less quality but one that Woomphs it up and shows his/her heartout, commanding the ring and demanding the ribbon.

Both my boys, Cole and Onyx by no means are perfect but when they show, they command the ring and ask for the ribbon. Showmanship and attitude are not everything in the conformation ring but are attributes which can make or break a show dog, no matter how structurally correct some poodles are, without showmanship to boot, attitude , and head/tail up carriage , they will do nothing but finish with a point here and a point there, but never the special accolades that the tail up head up, chest thrust forward commands.


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## whitepoodles

Tabatha:

I believe that this is the stance that you describe at the end of your post which so many judges come to regard as a much needed attitude in a show poodle.


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## NOLA Standards

It is.

And if you can see it in a photo, imagine what it looks like as the animal enters the ring. (Well you don't have to imagine! But for those who don't frequent the shows - think Westminster  )

I mentioned Tequila -he's an apricot - one of the few specialed. Prob (color) why I thought of him.

R.E. PV Yes, that is me with the Baroness. Ugly shoes and plain hair and all! Remember you are only supposed to notice the animal! My non show friends have given me much grief about the hair and the outfit and the shoes. Welcome to owner handling!

Ummm to keep on thread...B's tail set is a tiny bit low. However, she carries her tail at 12. Once she is finished I will breed her to a refined leggy male with a high croup and great tailset. Almost certainly he will be a black.

Could we talk about Onyx in a year or so?


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## whitepoodles

NOLA Standards said:


> It is.
> 
> And if you can see it in a photo, imagine what it looks like as the animal enters the ring. (Well you don't have to imagine! But for those who don't frequent the shows - think Westminster  )
> 
> I mentioned Tequila -he's an apricot - one of the few specialed. Prob (color) why I thought of him.
> 
> R.E. PV Yes, that is me with the Baroness. Ugly shoes and plain hair and all! Remember you are only supposed to notice the animal! My non show friends have given me much grief about the hair and the outfit and the shoes. Welcome to owner handling!
> 
> Ummm to keep on thread...B's tail set is a tiny bit low. However, she carries her tail at 12. Once she is finished I will breed her to a refined leggy male with a high croup and great tailset. Almost certainly he will be a black.
> 
> Also, re: tail set. Even if a tail is low but still carried UP is a good think and proper carriage.. By low tail set I meant a tail that is positioned as if it comes out of the dog's anal opening and carried at mast at either 1 or 2 o'cloc, that is horrible. But a tail that is set low but carried high when the dog is stacked and on the move, is nothing wrong with it.. I have had dogs with a low set on tail but who carry it high and with woomph.
> 
> 
> *Could we talk about Onyx in a year or so?*





Absolutely...... and I think that Michele would agree. I know her taste in dogs and she will drool over such a boy. She likes them flashy but not overdone and with substance.


LOL Tabatha, why dont you go to PCA and see what some handlers wear and the shoes they show with... you will be thinking you are dressed like a queen. Ha ! 

BTW, I wanted to ask you since I am totally oblivious to health in the reds and apricots.. does this color have issues with NEwS or VwD ?

Some whites do have it but thank god that we have isolated the gene markers (DNA) in order to help us breed these out of the line.

About tails: I dont mind a tail that is set lower than usual, however I would want to see that tail carried up and not at 1 or 2 o'clock. which I label at half mast. 

I did produce some dogs that have apple butts and whose tail set is lower but they all without exception carried it high while on stack and moving.


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## whitepoodles

This is a perfect example of a tail that is NOT set smack in the middle of the dog's back (as Annie clark loved to see them set), however if you note it is carried high inspite of the 12.30 o'clock set.


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## cliffdweller

NOLA Standards said:


> Interesting thread, ladies (and gentlemen).
> 
> Regarding hunting poodles - try googling "Cooper". He is featured in this issue of Gun Dog Magazine and in another magazine in CA and a German magazine (I think, as I can read French and Spanish and can't make out the title of the mag - sorry!).
> 
> Rich and Angie hunt - avidly -with their poodles and breed for the field. Cooper is approved to working bitches only. Now, can't say he should go in the conformation ring.._or that he shouldn't_ - please register that, ok!
> 
> ...


Hello NOLA,

There was a thread referencing the "Gun Dog" article on this forum [ http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle...le-do-poodles-hunt-post168857.html#post168857 ]. I made a post in that thread linking to a very nice video of Cooper (I am assuming it is the _same_ Cooper you mention) running a very nice triple retrieve.



NOLA Standards said:


> For a field dog you are looking for prey drive and instinct - willingness/ability to learn and desire to please. (my dad trained labs for years) But, whether right or wrong - that's not necessarily what we breed for. Am I wrong to not have "hunting dog" at the top of my list? I do not want to hunt. I do not like mosquitos or getting up early or being quite for long periods of time...or being cold or wet or... I do not like killing another animal...I do however, love venison stew.


Actually, your concept of "field dog" here is misleading: you are referring to one aspect (a part), namely, retrieving, as though it were the whole. What about the pointing dogs (though, I admit, Poodles are not recognized as pointing dogs historically), or the flushing dogs ? Poodles seem to have been recognized as flushing and retrieving dogs. To your list of desired traits ("... prey drive and instinct - willingness/ability to learn and desire to please") you must add style and physical ability. It was the latter that figured prominently in the discussion I had with whitepoodles and, of course, "style" (in the field oriented sense of that word) is linked to it. The question at issue, from my perspective, is how one can claim that this or that physical trait in a certain breed is "better" or "correct" (whether it be tails or angulation or size or whatever) without consideration of _function. _The whole hunting issue arises because, where the pointing breeds are concerned (and I suspect the other "sporting breeds" as well, but don't have much experience with those), the really good, competitive dogs often differ markedly in _conformation_ from their "bench" counterparts. To put this bluntly, the great majority of AKC show Pointers (for example) look _silly_ in the field next to a good American Field bred Pointer. And they, the AKC show/pet dogs, for the most part, just can't/won't _do it _in the field. Conversely, the American Field Pointers would be laughed out of an AKC show. So what makes a Pointer a Pointer ?

If the _function _of a Poodle is to make a good _show_ dog or be a good pet (or both), there is no issue -- you can just put the tails and angles anywhere or to whatever degree you want (according to the fashion of the day, perhaps) so long as it doesn't severely cripple the dog and he can still trot around the ring or go for a walk and _appear_ correct, or stylish, or whatever. (The Documentary shows that even those that can no longer trot around the ring can become show champions in some breeds !) You can keep making them larger or smaller, inch by inch, so they "stand out" (so to speak) in the ring. But this was not the claim that was being made above and I believe narrowing the horizon of the breed in this way would be to diminish it, not improve it.

When you start testing the performance aspect of the dog, where stamina and agility and style (in the _fieldy_ sense), not to mention the required innate abilities, are key, it's a whole different ball of wax.

[Aside about my personal experience with Rain so far, for anyone who is interested in this topic. I am happy to report that Rain exhibits a very pleasing amount of innate ability for hunting by scent and flushing. She also points, but it is so far mostly by sight rather than scent (so, useless for hunting). Her ability was exhibited when we accidentally "flushed" a fawn. Although Rain sees deer everyday, when she flushed the fawn, she lit up and I could see many genetic switches being flicked. It was the experience of flushing that really turned her on and made "sense" to her on a genetic level. Since then she is, on her own, learning to use her nose to test the air and determine where she should be relative to the cover in order to scent any game that might be there. I am merely facilitating and watching and enjoying. It is exciting and very nice. I would hate to see the breed lose this ! I think we will have many adventures once (if) we can get beyond the physical issues we have.]


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## Keithsomething

nu2poodles, I absolutely love your posts! I honestly have no idea about hunting (was never interested in it no matter how hard my father tried >.> lets blame...genetics for that ;D ) but the more time I spend reading about hunting and looking at the Harmony MT. site and the Louter's site its becoming more and more intriguing to me...maybe my dad will get a hunter sooner than he was expecting haha

Ora...I know several red breeders that have puppies in show homes, and I think the person you're referring to (though you're being very coy :]) maybe a member here and she happens to have a nice boy showing right at this moment!! So I'm not entirely sure where all your posts about this colour you have had no dealing with are coming from (at your own admission, you've said previously that you have had no dealings with reds or any interest in them...)

and Tabatha I completely agree with what you're saying! There has to be a whole package, but what confuses me is are breeders sacrificing one portion of the dog to achieve another part of it?
Using the Louters Cooper, an AMAZING hunting dog, would he succeed in the breed ring? In my novice mind I feel a dog (now this is dream scenario because Heaven will never be a hunting dog I'm not THAT ready hahaha) should be able to flawlessly integrate between one activity to another (Like Cheries boy in Germany who is doing search and rescue AND showing in Conformation)
Now I'm not so naive to believe that every breeding dog should have both a CH. AND a hunting or high level obedience/agility title (no matter how much I'd like to see it) but I feel the option SHOULD be there, that a dog should be able to be integrated into either activity easily and the only way to know if they can be integrated easily is to try them out in those fields! 

And about tails XD
Heaven has a lower tail set, but if she carries her tail high it doesn't look set so low...now if I could just get her to perk that tail up we'd be good to go XD
I think the combination of low tail set, and low carriage is what throws the whole look of the dog off and if add in a gay tail as well...BLECHHHH
But I will say that Terry has told me that reds and apricots have historically had lower tail sets as a whole, something he has worked on and improved in his line


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## whitepoodles

*Ora...I know several red breeders that have puppies in show homes, and I think the person you're referring to (though you're being very coy :]) maybe a member here and she happens to have a nice boy showing right at this moment!! So I'm not entirely sure where all your posts about this colour you have had no dealing with are coming from (at your own admission, you've said previously that you have had no dealings with reds or any interest in them...)

**But I will say that Terry has told me that reds and apricots have historically had lower tail sets as a whole, something he has worked on and improved in his line[/QUOTE]
scue *


Keith: 

You are actually admitting you are a novice.. this is a great start 

Now.... as for you stating that since I have no interest in reds and have no dealings with them and I assume by your post with any of the red breeders, you are quite correct, my preference is for white blacks and blues (the latter occasionally although I do not like to breed and/or exhibit blues.

I think you ARE confusing my knowledge in and experience with the breed with my preference for blacks and whites over reds.

This is a wrong ASSumption on your part, and given I consider you to be an intelligent person you should no doubt realize that your statement makes no sense.

Regardless of color be it a red, black ,white, brown, etc. GREAT and SOUND conformation should PLAGUE every color including the reds and apricots, and whether I am in contact or not with red breeders and/or do or dont like the red/apricot color has absolutely NO BEARING on my knowledge of the breed and how a poodle of ANY color should be constructed in order to conform to the breed standard and be able to sustain a successful show and performance career.

Lets take Tabatha's red puppy for example . I just received a photo of this puppy with STUNNING conformation which floored me given he is of color.

Keith you have mentioned several times and below, how hard it is to get beautiful conformation and nice upbeat tail set on reds and apricots, yet the photo of the puppy I saw who was bred out of Tabatha's FIRST litter conforms to the breed standard in leaps and bounds !!! KUDOS Tabatha for producing such a beautiful , and stylish representative of the breed out of your very first litter.

Tabatha has only now started to breed the reds and has managed to produce a puppy I would take home with me in a heartbeat, inspite of its color. This puppy has the conformation of a black sporting a red coat.....

You also mention my reference to a red breeder who is (?) a member of this forum and accuse me at the same time of being "very coy".

Since I do not exactely know to whom you are referring as there are several red breeders who are members of this forum, I would be very appreciative if that breeder you are referring to who currently has a nice puppy showing at the moment, post a photo of this puppy so that we can enjoy its beauty and evaluate its conformation as we do with many other breeders who are members here and who post photos of their dogs in stack position and front/rear view so that everyone can see and evaluate structure and quality of the dog.

Personally I have always been extremely selective and very hard when I grade my own dogs as well as other breeders' and require myself to only keep excellent representative of the breed to show and go on with in my breeding program, as such I will be more than happy to see another breeder's show dog which you claim is a very nice dog and currently showing , and since we are on tail sets and conformation in general subject/thread, it would be a great advantage for us all to see this puppy and evaluate its structure and tail set as well as other physical attributes the puppy posesses. Afterall, PF is a site that promotes education and members' involvement in discussions pertaining to everything from conformation to dog food, etc....

Terry Farley has made great strides in bettering the reds and has succeeded in doing so and then some. I had the pleasuring of seeing one of his puppies take a placement at the National Specialty (PCA) under a noted breeder judge and we all know just how hard it is to make a cut at PCA let alone to place. Kudos to Terry.

Tabatha, please post your stunning puppy's photo to this thread, I think it would serve as a perfect example for Keith who is interested in color to study this red puppy's beautiful conformation and thrive to own/show/breed such quality in future. With perseverance and most importantly setting high goals and standards to oneself, I have no doubt that with Keith's tenacity he too will have the opportuity to breed such quality in future.


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## faerie

crushing on nu2poodles right now.


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## pudel luv

This has been a most informative thread. 
I've enjoyed the knowledge gained thus far from the lively posts. 
Nothing gets the juices flowing better than a discussion about tails and color. 
Our beloved breed is truly an ever intriguing study:good:.


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## Quossum

I've enjoyed reading this thread, especially the field / show distinction discussed by nu2poodles. That dichotomy has always been fascinating to me. Check out a breed where the divergence of the lines has caused the breed to, for all practical purposed, become two different breeds.

Here is a "field" English Cocker Spaniel:









Here is a "show" English Cocker Spaniel:









Though the dogs on the bottom would be recognized by anyone attending a show as English Cockers, it is the dog on the top that would be used in the field for the very purpose for which the breed was developed. Therefore, the argument could be made that indeed, the one on the top is *more* of an English cocker, and perhaps even a *better* English cocker, than the others.

Now, I'm not saying that show-bred English cockers can't hunt, or that some breeders of show cockers don't pursue that to prove that their dogs have the genes and instinct...but the hunters who want a dog to actually go hunting with in reality, not for a contest or trial or field test...are NOT going to conformation breeders.

With a dog like the Poodle, things get even iffier. This is a breed that had an original purpose, a function (referring more to the spoo here). Over time, the breed's practical utilization for that function has faded to such an extent that they were placed in the AKC Non-Sporting group. (Whether they should be moved to the Sporting group is another topic!) Even in the FCI, they're listed in Group 9: Companion and Toy Dogs. The haircut, though it has origins in practicality, has become so exaggerated as to be ridiculous; let's face it, when specials "have" to be wigged to win, something's wrong! (And yes, I know other breeds have their share of more-or-less-accepted cheating, too! And not that I don't appreciate the drama and respect the prodigious amount of care and skill that goes into those big coats--I do!) 

But under all that hair there's still structure and temperament that *should* support the dog being able to perform its original purpose. On the other hand, you have "cosmetic" things that, while they may not directly tie in with function, still contribute to the essential character or breed type of the dog, its "Poodleness," if you will. Those things should be preserved by breeders, too. We're not just breeding the best darn water retriever to the best darn water retriever to get ever better darn water retrievers--we're breeding *Poodles,* and they should have Poodley character *and* looks, darn it!

So back to the English cockers above. Have the breeders of the field dogs lost English cocker "type" in their pursuit of function? Have the breeders of show dogs kept type at the expense of creating pretty dogs who can't hunt? Is it the field-type dog that should be winning in the ring, since it's actually doing cocker work?

I don't tender any answers...I just find the whole topic intriguing and worthy of thought. I'm not a breeder and have no aspirations to be (I used "we" above in the sense of the Poodle fancy at large), but I enjoying reading about and studying the subject. Just some rambling here...carry on! 

--Q


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## faerie

after watching that bbc documentary i'd like to see the exaggerations lessened. those poor german shepherds made me cry.
they are even different from my beloved gsd i had who was born in 1997. he didn't have a slope like that. 
seeing the changes in the different breeds over a span of 50-70 years just dismayed me. frick.

i love a poodly poo and i ooh and ahh with all of you, but i just think extreme just because they show in a ring better isn't the be all end all. 
i'd rather a sound, really well structured w/ good temperament who isn't a showboater.

shave them down! toss out the hairspray and pro handlers. put them back in sporting group!


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## Keithsomething

and then some wonder where god complex's develop XD
I find breeding so absolutely fascinating! I think it is beyond anything I can imagine that choices a person makes can consequently affect a whole pedigree of a dog whether good or bad...

and from the cases displayed in the BBC show, or the english cocker...it doesn't take much time for our intervention to make things go wonky (again either good or bad)
just imagine...what it has taken nature thousands of years to do we humans can with a simple 30-40years completely change that...so fascinating XD

Sorry I went on a tangent there >.>

OH and tails!
lol this may be funny to some or sad to others >.>
but I've grown accustomed to looking at bad tail sets (I could distinguish between a good one or a bad one but I didn't know what made them a good one) so I asked Terry to look at this dog I liked and tell me if his tail was low...or to high? because I just couldn't wrap my mind around it XD whenever I compared him to what I thought was a good tail set this tail looked like it was in the MIDDLE of the dogs back and I was thrown for a loop...thankfully because the man is a godsend! and has more patience for my trivial questions than anyone!! he explained that I had just been looking at subpar tails, not good but not the worst which threw my eye off whenever I saw a phenomenal one (which this dog had)
So thank you Terry for allowing me the chance to sponge off your knowledge!!


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## Fluffyspoos

Ugh, I don't know how a traditional looking cocker, english or american, could be doing field work well. Their coats are WAY too thick and cottony to go out in any other clip other than shaved down completely, or else it would pick up EVERYTHING! You think poodle coats are hard? They also have terrible allergies and ear infection problems. This is not a good combination for a hunting dog, who would come in contact with many different plants, get dirt in the ears, ect.


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## whitepoodles

*i love a poodly poo and i ooh and ahh with all of you, but i just think extreme just because they show in a ring better isn't the be all end all. 
i'd rather a sound, really well structured w/ good temperament who isn't a showboater.

shave them down! toss out the hairspray and pro handlers. put them back in sporting group![/QUOTE]*Faerie:

There actually are many stunning show dogs who are well structured and have sublime temperaments who do successfully participate in both conformation and performance. 

NOT all show dogs who sport a huge coat fancy cuts, and as you label them showboaters are inept in performance. Many have and will go on to great success in the latter as well as in conformation.

This is what is meant by breeding for the TOTAL dog and there are breeders who do it both quite successfully.

Just because a dog looks flashy in the ring and is poodly does not mean he can not go and sustain a long work in the field. It all depends on how this poodle is constructed and if they have the temperament to be able to work the field and maintain stamina and interest. 

It has been proven to be done with show poodles.. 

When one thinks of John Sutter and his poodle sled dogs who won the Iditarod some years ago.. no doubt such stamina can transfer itself to the field as well, and coupled with good structure and proper temperament the sky is the limit and since poodles are a versatile breed I believe that they can and have proven to be able to do that.

And... yes, like yourself I would love them to sport the HCC trim and be shown with much less hair, no spray or huge coats, not because I do not appreciate the fancy look of the big hair but because I am too lazy to upkeep coat, LOLOL cant anymore at my (young) age  and also wish to once be able to go in the ring with my OWN dog sporting a short trim (HCC) and enjoy winning with them WITHOUT a handler. Dream come true ? Maybe, still hope for this though...

And here is a picture of a wonderful dog (who is my boy Onyx's sire) sporting and always been shown in a HCC trim which did not deter from peopel going goo goo and gaga over his wonderful structure with every bone in synch with the other and making a stunning picture on the go around . YAY to Patrick, who is also a performance and therapy dog extraordinare !


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## whitepoodles

This is Patrick (Onyx's sire) in HCC trim and has always showed nicely in this trim, no spray , no wiggies and always au naturel.


And.. here is my baby Cole who says show dogs CAN AND DO have fun  and yes, this is ALL his top knot hair not a single wiggie/switch....


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## whitepoodles

This movement is synonymous with excellent structure at both ends which no doubt will afford this dog (Cole) to have stamina and endurance in the field .

Inspite of the fact that he will never be a hunting dog, he can because he has the ability structurally to work a field for a long time and will never fall apart, given his total soundness .

Whether he does or does not have the apptitude psychologically to become a hunting dog I will never know since I am not going to hunt with him, but I have no doubt that given his wonderful temperament, high prey drive and positive attitude and willingness to please, he can excell in perfomance/field if trained for it. 

Nu2Poodles: 

Question for you since I respect your knowledge. Using the Volhard method of puppy apptitude testing can one test for apptitude for hunting with such testing method or is/are there other tests that a line of hunting dogs employ in order to test for hunting apptitude in their dogs. Thanks.


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## whitepoodles

Cole movement shot.


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## faerie

so why is it that in akc they are allowed to be so extreme and sprayed and wigged? why not all of them go to hcc?


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## whitepoodles

*


faerie said:



so why is it that in akc they are allowed to be so extreme and sprayed and wigged? why not all of them go to hcc?

Click to expand...

*Faerie:

VERY good and logical question indeed and the answer is simple.. IF ALL poodles would go to the HCC trim there would be NO handlers.

It is some judges and ALL handlers who want to maintain the HUGE coats and frown upon the shorter less extreme version called the HCC (historically correct trim).

There have been numerous protests in past and recently to allow poodles to be exhibited sporting the HCC trim which is correct but handlers REFUSE to show them in this trim or VERY FEW do.

It is all a matter I believe of making money showing a dog and handlers are in it for one thing to show dogs and support themselves and put food on the table by showing these dogs for their clients.. Very simple to figure out.

As long as there will be handlers around the HUGE coats will prevail and as long as some judges frown upon the HCC, the long huge extreme coats will ALSO continue to dominate the show ring.

For some of US breeder exhibitors who wish to show dogs sporting the short coat version is a no win situation as handlers have clout being in and out of the ring on a weekly basis and judges just frown upon the HCC and will RARELY put up an excellent specimen of the breed IF they are shown in HCC.

So as you can see this is a no win situation for someone who is an aggresive competitior and show person who wants to exhibit their dogs and win with them..

COAT in poodles has been over exagerated for years because of handlers and preference of some (ok, MOST) judges.

Sad.. but true.

I would love to see the day that I can walk into the ring with a dog like Cole and show him in HCC, but would I ever be able to manage to win the multi BIS wins he won , I think not.. So this is the dilemma regarding whether we should show our dogs in the HCC or succumb to what is fancied in the ring today and it is big hair , big coat, big topknot, etc. etc.. and the list as you know goes on.


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## faerie

see that pisses me off. 
it's all politics.


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## NOLA Standards

Nu2Poodles

It is my opinion - to get to the heart of your question - that the structure required in the ring - that of Champions - would in now way hinder or lessen a poodle as a hunter.

Angie's dogs - had she chosen to present them in the ring - would have championed in AKC. It would have been a bit more of a battle - they are color - and as a result have heavier heads (my biggest critique of Cooper) but nice chest depth and bone - not heavy or coarse. They also have great pigment.

Layla I expect will be seen next year in a class at PCA. She too has all the structural qualities that would have served her well in the ring.

**Note: I think retrieving because my family lives on the flyway. Following the same thread - sporting isn't all retrieving - I'll again mention Annie and a CAT title. She - for a red - excelled in the ring and she will run (and swim, btw) until I stop her.

Regarding any conformation currently being bred for show, I would say that the trend that could potentially cause the most damage to the poodle - regarding working -would be the lack of chest in some of the more extreme animals. And that only in theory - as I don't know of any in the water/field/etc.

If you are wanting to research it - you could take a good look at Louterhuntingpoodles and then perhaps compare them to Joyce C's crew of Carlyn. Joyce titles first in the ring and then in the field. She is an active organizer of hunting and field tests for PCA and would be an excellent source of information if you would like to discuss your concerns beyond PF.

I can send and email to her as an introduction. Let me know.



R.E. HCC

My pet is peeled. Best way to describe it. His cut couldn't even be called the German cut. Annie is in a modified pet continental - no bracelets and no tail with her ears bobbed. It's maybe 1/2 inch all over. B is in show coat and will be until she is finished. Yes it is a labor of love - but I do appreciate the coat and the work it takes. I love Del Dahls quote regarding show coats in poodles. Will have to post it (wish I had the book with me! and could post it now).



R.E.: sound and really well structured vs a showboater ( I could have misunderstood this - so disregard my comment if I did, please) Showboaters can't showboat if they aren't well structured....



R.E.: Lombardi -he's a Carter x Ruby pup - and though many would call him red - he's going to be registered as an apricot - as his red is too apricot for me to justify calling him red (especially compared to Annie and B). I'll post his pictures tonight. He is already posted in the photo area - at least his pictures from 8 weeks are. Ora's shocked surprise came from looking at 4 month photos where he remains as spectacular as he was at 8 weeks. (4 months is well into the uglies for a pup). I've called him my BBE CH since before he was born! Can't wait to start "showing" him off!


----------



## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> This movement is synonymous with excellent structure at both ends which no doubt will afford this dog (Cole) to have stamina and endurance in the field .
> 
> Inspite of the fact that he will never be a hunting dog, he can because he has the ability structurally to work a field for a long time and will never fall apart, given his total soundness .
> 
> Whether he does or does not have the apptitude psychologically to become a hunting dog I will never know since I am not going to hunt with him, but I have no doubt that given his wonderful temperament, high prey drive and positive attitude and willingness to please, he can excell in perfomance/field if trained for it.


Just to be clear about my opinion on this : I don't think "movement" or "structure", etc., that is desirable in the show ring indicates much about how a dog will perform in the field and there is room for _alot of doubt_ about it_;_ besides, _there is_ _evidence_ to show that claims of the sort you are making here have no basis in _fact_. Only actual performance in the field will separate the wheat from the chaff regarding necessary and sufficient working structure and behavior.




whitepoodles said:


> Nu2Poodles:
> 
> Question for you since I respect your knowledge. Using the can one test for apptitude for hunting with such testing method or is/are there other tests that a line of hunting dogs employ in order to test for hunting apptitude in their dogs. Thanks.


I don't know _anything_ about the "Volhard method of puppy apptitude testing", lol (-- I _hate_ _standardized_ tests of all kinds anyway and would never think of selecting that way ~~~). I don't know.

We tested our puppies in the field, on birds. For the Pointing breeds, there are competitions for puppies (6 - 15 months of age) and derbies (up to 2 years of age); these are where puppies and young dogs are able to display whatever _potential_ they have in competition. I think there are similar tests for the other sporting breeds.


----------



## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Faerie:
> 
> VERY good and logical question indeed and the answer is simple.. IF ALL poodles would go to the HCC trim there would be NO handlers.
> 
> ...


Hello whitepoodles,

Sorry, could you post an image of the HCC trim here ? I did not realize people were going to these extremes in the breed, probably because I just can't imagine wanting any more hair on a dog than Rain has (constant amazement !). Very interesting ...


----------



## whitepoodles

*


faerie said:



see that pisses me off. 
it's all politics.

Click to expand...

*
Faerie:

YES and I am in TOTAL agreement with you, but hey how else are we going to show our dogs and win with them... 

Hair is hair, you just have to look at it this way and try to get over the politics and big hair issues and see what the dog is trully underneath and evaluate him/her based on temperament in the ring, how they show, what structure they have and forget all about that huge coat..

Take your eyes and go INSIDE that coat and feel with your eyes as a SPECTATOR not a judge what this dog is built like.

I wish there would be a petition that we as exhibitors would have the NERVE to put up and all sign it in the hope that the HCC will be the ONLY trim that poodles should be allowed to be shown in, moreover, I would love to exhibit my dogs in the SPORTING group and this will be the ultimate test if they can match in movement and stamina some excellent representative of the sporting group.

Alas what are standard poodles doing anyway in ring with French bulldogs, Shi Tzu's, and some of the small non sporting breeds just boggles my mind :-(


----------



## whitepoodles

*


nu2poodles said:



Hello whitepoodles,

Sorry, could you post an image of the HCC trim here ? I did not realize people were going to these extremes in the breed, probably because I just can't imagine wanting any more hair on a dog than Rain has (constant amazement !). Very interesting ...

Click to expand...

*Nu2poodles:

The photo I posted of a standard poodle male (my boy Onyx's sire) 
SBIS Am. Ch. HighSpirits Irrefutable, CGC, RN, CDX (therapy dog extraordinare) is posted on page 5 I believe of this thread. But I will post it here again since the discussion is related to HCC and page 5 is not visible here.

Here goes, the HCC trim sported by a Specialty Best In Show winner who is also a performance and therapy dog. I was honored to breed to him and get my boy Onyx out of him, and the pick girl went to the stud owner and is also pointed in the U.S. and has finished her Can. championship in 5 short days. Onyx did it in two days with multiple group placement wins and puppy in group wins at 6 mos. and 10 days old.

Would love to sneak into my U.S. handler's house and cut Onyx out into HCC trim, while Becky is fast asleep and then see if she would show him in the HCC.. LOLOL ( a sneaky thought I might ad 

Here is Patrick, one of my favorite stud dogs todate.

On rt. side he is pictured at 10 months old with his breeder and handler sporting the puppy clip winning a Specialty Best In Show under noted judge Frank Sabella (this is a fantastic win for any puppy to go over a BIS Special and win a Specialty BIS at such a young age).
The photo on the lt. depicts him as an adult sporting the Historically Correct Trim ( HCC ).

Watch the correct floating movement he has in HCC with not a single foot touching the ground with perfect foot timing front and rear.. this is a pleasure to watch by someone who appreciates great conformation and movement which no doubt are essential not only in the breed but also in performance and in the field as a working dog. Movement such as this one is not labored but comes quite naturally to a dog built properly as such they can easily keep up with dogs that work the field if they are introduced to it by their owners .


----------



## whitepoodles

NOLA Standards said:


> Nu2Poodles
> 
> It is my opinion - to get to the heart of your question - that the structure required in the ring - that of Champions - would in now way hinder or lessen a poodle as a hunter.
> 
> Angie's dogs - had she chosen to present them in the ring - would have championed in AKC. It would have been a bit more of a battle - they are color - and as a result have heavier heads (my biggest critique of Cooper) but nice chest depth and bone - not heavy or coarse. They also have great pigment.
> 
> Layla I expect will be seen next year in a class at PCA. She too has all the structural qualities that would have served her well in the ring.
> 
> **Note: I think retrieving because my family lives on the flyway. Following the same thread - sporting isn't all retrieving - I'll again mention Annie and a CAT title. She - for a red - excelled in the ring and she will run (and swim, btw) until I stop her.
> 
> Regarding any conformation currently being bred for show, I would say that the trend that could potentially cause the most damage to the poodle - regarding working -would be the lack of chest in some of the more extreme animals. And that only in theory - as I don't know of any in the water/field/etc.
> 
> If you are wanting to research it - you could take a good look at Louterhuntingpoodles and then perhaps compare them to Joyce C's crew of Carlyn. Joyce titles first in the ring and then in the field. She is an active organizer of hunting and field tests for PCA and would be an excellent source of information if you would like to discuss your concerns beyond PF.
> 
> I can send and email to her as an introduction. Let me know.
> 
> 
> 
> R.E. HCC
> 
> My pet is peeled. Best way to describe it. His cut couldn't even be called the German cut. Annie is in a modified pet continental - no bracelets and no tail with her ears bobbed. It's maybe 1/2 inch all over. B is in show coat and will be until she is finished. Yes it is a labor of love - but I do appreciate the coat and the work it takes. I love Del Dahls quote regarding show coats in poodles. Will have to post it (wish I had the book with me! and could post it now).
> 
> 
> 
> R.E.: sound and really well structured vs a showboater ( I could have misunderstood this - so disregard my comment if I did, please) Showboaters can't showboat if they aren't well structured....
> 
> 
> 
> R.E.: Lombardi -he's a Carter x Ruby pup - and though many would call him red - he's going to be registered as an apricot - as his red is too apricot for me to justify calling him red (especially compared to Annie and B). I'll post his pictures tonight. He is already posted in the photo area - at least his pictures from 8 weeks are. *Ora's shocked surprise came from looking at 4 month photos where he remains as spectacular as he was at 8 weeks. (4 months is well into the uglies for a pup). I've called him my BBE CH since before he was born! Can't wait to start "showing" him off!*





Tabatha:

Quite honestly and I am NOT giving you a compliment here as what I am about to say is honestly meant.

Ok... Can I take your puppy home with me (actually steal him  I promiss NOT to dye him black ::--)

Color or no color this puppy ROCKS and takes my breath away.. Kudos for breeding such a nice pup, be it red or apricot, he is a stunner.

I would really like you to post his photo here, and have no doubt that not only color breeders but also whites and black breeders would appreciate a great lookin puppy.

I have a feeling that once you are out with him, people will take notice and the great part of it all is that he is from your VERY FIRST breeding. YAY !


----------



## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> *Just to be clear about my opinion on this : I don't think "movement" or "structure", etc., that is desirable in the show ring indicates much about how a dog will perform in the field and there is room for alot of doubt about it; besides, there is evidence to show that claims of the sort you are making here have no basis in fact. Only actual performance in the field will separate the wheat from the chaff regarding necessary and sufficient working structure and behavior*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know _anything_ about the "Volhard method of puppy apptitude testing", lol (-- I _hate_ _standardized_ tests of all kinds anyway and would never think of selecting that way ~~~). I don't know.
> 
> We tested our puppies in the field, on birds. For the Pointing breeds, there are competitions for puppies (6 - 15 months of age) and derbies (up to 2 years of age); these are where puppies and young dogs are able to display whatever _potential_ they have in competition. I think there are similar tests for the other sporting breeds.



Nu2poodles:

Fine, I understand but would like you to explain WHAT structure do you feel is desirable, since you do hunting with your dogs for a poodle or any dog to have if they are to be used for hunting. I am not speaking here of the temperament aspect but strictly the physical structure needed for a dog with hunting abilities.

I have posted a picture of both Cole and Patrick dogs which I feel are beautifully structured and have tons of stamina and positive energy, as such what would you classify as correct structure needed for a dog to excell and be considered as a good prospect for the hunting sport ?


----------



## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> Just to be clear about my opinion on this : I don't think "movement" or "structure", etc., that is desirable in the show ring indicates much about how a dog will perform in the field and there is room for _alot of doubt_ about it_;_ besides, _there is_ _evidence_ to show that claims of the sort you are making here have no basis in _fact_. Only actual performance in the field will separate the wheat from the chaff regarding necessary and sufficient working structure and behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *I don't know anything about the "Volhard method of puppy apptitude testing", lol (-- I hate standardized tests of all kinds anyway and would never think of selecting that way ~~~). I don't know.
> *We tested our puppies in the field, on birds. For the Pointing breeds, there are competitions for puppies (6 - 15 months of age) and derbies (up to 2 years of age); these are where puppies and young dogs are able to display whatever _potential_ they have in competition. I think there are similar tests for the other sporting breeds.



Nu2Poodles:

While I have great respect for your knowledge I feel that the puppy apptitude test is not really a laughing matter. I have attended several seminars given by Mrs. Pat Hastings who is an authority on puppy temperament testing and grading for structure and have enjoyed many of her opinions and find them quite valuable for ANY breeder who sells their puppies to the general public.

As you know most puppy clients do not hunt with their dogs and for them to have a puppy temperament tested by a professional in order for the breeder to know which puppy to place in which home is imperative.

I sell my puppies to many who are raising toddlers and I have to be extra careful which temperament I place in which home.

Exhibiting hunting abilities may not necessarily be a good thing for a family with young children as you may already know. This is why I totally depend on a means with which to evaluate my puppies prior to placing them in their future homes, I am resonsible and I do not wish to make a mistake by placing the wrong puppy in a client's home.

So doing the Temperament testing (Volhard method) which you regard as LOL is crucial in my breeding and selling of my pets and while you test for performance only I must test for other things and the Volhard method affords me to know more about the puppy rather than only concentrate on his/her ability to perform in the field.

Also I know of a breeder exhibitor whose dogs ALWAYS complete their CD, CDX all the way to OTCH and some do field work but IF you ever come in contact with SOME of their dogs you will NOT want some of them to even come close to an adult let alone a child.. that is the reason that this specific breeder refuses to sell their standard poodle puppies to families with young children whereas I am overjoyed when a client has toddlers or young children who want a puppy to love and have as a companion. 

While the OTHER breeder's dogs oh well SOME of them can not ever become trustworthy companions in a home with or without kids due to certain temperament issues genetically expressed in that specific line REGARDLESS of their much success in the field, obedience etc.... my puppies can be trusted not only with an adult but a screaming, yelling, and pushy toddler and they will never snarl or curl their lip.. 

Having said this the Volhard method, or doing the temp testing Pat Hasting's style is a necessary tool for any breeder who sells puppies to the public as most breeders' pups go to pet homes to become loving companions rather than to homes which will be using the dog in performance or field, hunting , tracking , etc... and this is what I was trying to ask you Nu2poodles in respect to the temperament testing to find out what you think about this type of testing and when I read you had put LOL in your post, I was a bit taken aback thinking I may have been doing the wrong temperament test on my puppies, but have come to realize after reading your response, that testing a litter for temperament is not the same as testing a young pup for field work or hunting abilities, this is where my question about the Volhard method of testing a litter stemmed from.


----------



## whitepoodles

Nu2Poodles:

As I have asked previously what structure (not speaking about temperament or behavior for now), but structure and this is my question, 

In YOUR opinion and experience what structure you feel will be appropriate in order to consider a dog as a great prospect for hunting?

If as breeders we are told to breed for the TOTAL dog, then WHY in your opinion a balanced structure of 2 poodles as depicted in the photos I posted would not be considered by you or others in your field to be the key to how a dog wll perform.

Should a poodle be constructed DIFFERENTLY form the photos I posted in order to qualify for hunting ?

Please explain your comment , I am confused. I have always been under the impression that if as breeders we breed structurally correct dogs with solid sound temperaments that we do have the potential to work our dogs in the field to include in hunting.

What is then a DESIRABLE physical/Structural component which you would opt to have in a dog structurally speaking and how would you grade each body part piecemeal in order to make a final decision (LEAVE temperament aside for now) that this particular dog STRUCTURALLY will conform to being a great prospect as a "hunter".

Please let me (us) know.

Thanks


----------



## Olie

Nevermind Ora asked the same question I did pretty much. Must have been typing at the same time.


I will keep this part - I would love to see more discussion on this in the performance and hunting section. Although I am not interested in the hunting aspect I am interested in learning more, I have followed threads like this before on other forums and am very interested to hear the structure preference from an experienced person....


----------



## whitepoodles

Olie said:


> Nevermind Ora asked the same question I did pretty much. Must have been typing at the same time.
> 
> 
> I will keep this part - I would love to see more discussion on this in the performance and hunting section. Although I am not interested in the hunting aspect I am interested in learning more, *I have followed threads like this before on other forums and am very interested to hear the structure preference from an experienced person....*





Olie:

Precisely my point and this is the main reason why I posted both Cole and Patrick's photos whom I consider excellent representative of the breed and all rounders' dogs and have asked (twice) Nu2Poodles to respond to my and your question in regards to what STRUCTURE would she consider the OPTIMUM in the poodle in order to qualify for hunting and field work.

Since I respect Nu2poodles opinion given she knows what she is talking about and since like you , I also endeavor to learn from people who know better than me in fields I am not proficient in, hence my question posed to Nu2poodles and I am still waiting for a response.

Would love a detailed explanation as this thread is really interesting and I have and am learning alot by reading Nu2poodles input.


----------



## cliffdweller

Quossum said:


> I've enjoyed reading this thread, especially the field / show distinction discussed by nu2poodles. That dichotomy has always been fascinating to me. Check out a breed where the divergence of the lines has caused the breed to, for all practical purposed, become two different breeds.
> 
> Here is a "field" English Cocker Spaniel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a "show" English Cocker Spaniel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though the dogs on the bottom would be recognized by anyone attending a show as English Cockers, it is the dog on the top that would be used in the field for the very purpose for which the breed was developed. ...So back to the English cockers above. Have the breeders of the field dogs lost English cocker "type" in their pursuit of function? Have the breeders of show dogs kept type at the expense of creating pretty dogs who can't hunt? Is it the field-type dog that should be winning in the ring, since it's actually doing cocker work?
> 
> I don't tender any answers...--Q


WOW ! There is a greater disparity in the Cockers than in the Pointers. Thank you for posting this.

Here is an example of Pointers : 



















The dog in the top photo is the type of AKC show Pointers; the dog on the bottom is from American Field lines (dual registered AKC/American Field). The person that owns the latter dog began his field pusuits with AKC Pointers, but quickly moved to the American Field Pointers on the basis of their vastly superior abilities for field work and pleasing performance.

[BTW: there is _alot _of discussion about and muckin' around with tails in Pointers, as you can imagine ~~~]


----------



## whitepoodles

Nu2poodles:

I am still confused sorry, is your latest post supposed to answer my and Olie's question regarding what you feel a poodle's conformation will require in order to qualify it as a hunter.

I have provided you (as per your request) with the photos of both dogs, and had hoped you will give me your input as to what type of conformation these two dogs have which will either make or break their potential as future hunting dogs, as I said, lets leave temperament aside for the moment and strictly concentrate on structure (good or bad)

I have never been kennel blind and since I respect your opinion I am willing to listen and learn.. So please grade the two standard poodles conformation strictly based on their movement as depicted in the shots provided and let me know if in your opinion standard poodles who move this way are well structured and sound at both ends.

I am sure that Olie would also like to find out.

Thanks


----------



## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> Just to be clear about my opinion on this : *I don't think "movement" or "structure", etc., that is desirable in the show ring indicates much about how a dog will perform in the field and there is room for *_*alot of doubt*_ about it_;_ besides, _there is_ _evidence_ to show that claims of the sort you are making here have no basis in _fact_. Only actual performance in the field will separate the wheat from the chaff regarding necessary and sufficient working structure and behavior.
> 
> 
> And.... here, I and a multitude of other breeder exhibitors have always been under the impression that breeding a structurally correct dog at both ends with superb movement and foot timing is most certainly a required physical characteristic NOT ONLY in the show ring but ALSO in performance.
> 
> 
> As such I am totally confused by your statement Nu2poodles. Are you saying that "movement" and "structure" in the show ring should differ from how a dog moves and should be structured (physically built) in order to qualify to become a good specimen which is able to hunt successfully?
> 
> Please ellaborate I am really starting to get confused. I was always under the impression that breeders breed for the TOTAL dog and if they do than there is NO reason whatsoever why these beautifully structured SHOW DOGS who have great movement presence and showmanship in the ring and who are structurally sound at both front and rear ends and totally balanced should qualify DIFFERENTLY from dogs that are successful hunters.
> 
> OK then.. WHAT would qualify a poodle structurally to become a successful hunter, or rather have the ability and potential to become a great hunting dog ?
> 
> Is a hunting poodle structured differently from a balanced beautifully structured and sound poodle ??


----------



## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Nu2poodles:
> 
> Fine, I understand but would like you to explain WHAT structure do you feel is desirable, since you do hunting with your dogs for a poodle or any dog to have if they are to be used for hunting. I am not speaking here of the temperament aspect but strictly the physical structure needed for a dog with hunting abilities.
> 
> I have posted a picture of both Cole and Patrick dogs which I feel are beautifully structured and have tons of stamina and positive energy, as such what would you classify as correct structure needed for a dog to excell and be considered as a good prospect for the hunting sport ?


The short answer to what I would "classify as correct structure needed for a dog to excell and be considered as a good prospect for the hunting sport" is, _the structure that works_. 

Generally, for the sport that I am most familiar with, the dogs need to be relatively small (~ 40 - 50 lbs.) and _compact_ (reasons are below). But dogs are selected on the basis of performance, not on any preconceived notion of "correct structure". 

On what is your statement about "tons of stamina" based ? I really would like to know this. Your idea of "tons of stamina" may not be the same as mine, and if I were selecting a dog for stamina, I would want _evidence_ that stamina was there to suit _me _(not just your opinion about it). That is why we test.

I am no longer hunting dogs (I live on a relatively small island, lol; there is nothing even remotely resembling a field trial anywhere near here), and it is important to note that the "hunting" I _did_ do was competitive (Field Trial -- Pointing Dogs). There are lots of forms of hunting, as I've pointed out elsewhere.

For Pointing (and, I think, Flushing) Dogs: 
I would not be able to judge a dog on it's appearance, "stacked", as you say, except in terms of very obvious (gross) physiological features, such as size. The dog would need to be judged in motion, at a run, and with consideration on how it handles the terrain (and different types of terrain). We like dogs that are very fast and snappy rather than lumbering. I believe this requires that the dog be _relatively compact._ (The long, graceful lines that are so pleasing in the ring (I think), do not work so well in the field and those dogs are clumsy going through the cover.) "Large" dogs also have difficulty running in the way a bird dog needs to run in order to cover the terrain and find birds. Larger dogs tend not to have the required stamina under these conditions, perhaps because they just have more difficulty getting through the cover or carrying themselves for long at the desired pace (this is not a sprint). 

Champion Field Trial stakes are an hour; most of it is running (sometimes over difficult terrain -- humans are mounted); any sign of tiring is unacceptable (except when the weather is warm --- this is a cold weather sport). It is pleasing to see a dog that is agile enough to stop on a dime from a dead run when he scents game (I have seen dogs flip over) and style up, high, like a statue, motionless, on point. Even if you have the correct physique, there is the whole physiological system that must be tough and strong to endure the conditions under which these dogs run (e,g,. 35 degrees and raining, with mud, etc.).

So that describes some basic physical requirements. Elsewhere in this thread I posted pics of Pointers (http://www.poodleforum.com/27-showi...-tail-thoughts-lol-post173447.html#post173447); these give an idea about the current difference in physique between the show and field Pointers.

Honestly, it is foreign to me to discuss dogs in this way, in terms of structure abstracted from everthing else in the dog; field trial is really about the performance, and dogs are selected on that basis. We might make a joke about an unattractive looking dog, but if that dog outperforms the others, he wins. If one prefers dogs with tails straight as a rod and at 12PM, but the sickle-tail dog gives a better performance on the ground, it is the latter you select.

A dog can be very beautiful in conformation and just look awful running in the field for all kinds of reasons, but it's often (in my experience) because they are not agile and quick, but rather lumbering and awkward.

Of course, physique is only part of what is required. Drive is a large part. Field trials are a very specialzed form of competitive hunting. You could call it "extreme". But it gathers a bunch of physiological and behavioral traits together to form a consolidated gene pool that otherwise would be dispersed willy-nilly through breeding for traits that have nothing to do with whether the dog can/will actually hunt and point (or fill in whatever sport and functions you wish here). 

If the Poodle _was _a good retrieving dog, and being a good retrieving dog is part of what makes a Poodle a Poodle (I'm not making the claim that it is), then, if you start getting Poodles that have no desire to retrieve, or are not well built for swimming, you've got a more or less serious problem in your "Poodle" gene pool. The only way that I know to recover from this is to test for, say, swimming ability. You need to make sure your breeding stock have the required physiological features. Some of these traits will be apparent, like webbed feet, others may be very subtle so that the only way to discern whether they are present or not is through testing the dog _in the water_. 

I would like to say that I am not making a claim that Poodles cannot be good field dogs in some appropriate capacity (in keeping with their traditional functions in this respect, whatever they were) _just as they stand today_. Cooper is impressive in his land retrieves; videos I found showing Poodles doing water retrieves were less impressive. But I have not seen enough, nor do I know enough to make a valid judgement about Poodles. In addition, I am far from convinced that everthing I've read about their history is true. I did take note that there seemed to be some concern about their working capacity when I reasearched the breed. And, I firmly believe that if breeders do not take notice of these traits (working characteristics of the breed) _in their breeding programs, test for their presence,_ and breed _for_ them, they will be diminished or lost. You cannot just assume that these complex physiological traits are there through the presence of certain phenotypical traits. "Length of stride", though pleasing to see in a dog's movement, may or may not be beneficial to a certain field activity; you have to pursue that activity to find out.

Or, it may not be important to the breed's caretakers to maintain its working capacity, as NOLA has indicated. Breed characteristics change through time. I'm not making a judgement about this. 

What I _am_ saying (-- and I think this goes for all dogs that are considered "working" dogs --) concerning the divide between physiological traits required for show or field, is this:

1) the ideal physical traits as defined by THE Breed Standard and showing are not _necessarily_ the _same_ traits that would benefit the dog in performance beyond the minimal performance required for the purpose of showing. So claims that this or that degree of angulation, tailset, length of stride, etc., benefit or enhance or ensure working capacity, _without proof_ (testing) that they do _in fact_ benefit or ensure that working capacity, are fallacious. [As the dogs are used (tested) less and less in some working capacity, there is a tendency for functional physiological features to be changed, through breeding, for reasons other than their original, functional purpose.]

2) in working dogs, breeding for some particular physical trait, like tailset or carriage, should not be undertaken without consideration for how it affects the working capacity of the dog (among other things). Form (and this includes aesthetics) _follows [from] _function.

3) some physiological requirements, such as, e.g., _structure and_ _reflexes necessary to allow a dog to run through heavy cover without injuring itself_, are just too complex for us to select for in any way other than through performance testing.


----------



## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Nu2Poodles:
> 
> While I have great respect for your knowledge I feel that the puppy apptitude test is not really a laughing matter. I have attended several seminars given by Mrs. Pat Hastings who is an authority on puppy temperament testing and grading for structure and have enjoyed many of her opinions and find them quite valuable for ANY breeder who sells their puppies to the general public.


I wasn't laughing at the test or your use of it, but at the fact that I don't know anything about it. It is a kind of measure of how much of an alien I am in this environment.

We were not interested in selling puppies to the public.

I do wonder what Mrs. Pat Hastings knows about field ability in dogs, though ?


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## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> I wasn't laughing at the test or your use of it, but at the fact that I don't know anything about it. It is a kind of measure of how much of an alien I am in this environment.
> 
> We were not interested in selling puppies to the public.
> 
> *I do wonder what Mrs. Pat Hastings knows about field ability in dogs, though ?*




Nu2poodles:

I cant answer this , you will have to ask Ms. Hastings. She does have a website and a corner where visitors can post questions. It would be very interesting if you do strictly out of curiosity and in order to answer your own question contact her and ask her for her opinion and knowldge about field ability in dogs. I am sure she must have some knowledge of what you are discussing here, since form and function go hand in hand and this is the first thing that I have learnt when I embarked on breeding standard poodles, to breed as close as possible to the breed standard and for what the poodles were initially bred for, and that is retrieving.

We have to agree here that you know your field and I know mine... and yes they apparently differ.

Thank you so much for your indepth detailed explanation. Much appreciated.


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## cliffdweller

NOLA Standards said:


> Nu2Poodles
> 
> It is my opinion - to get to the heart of your question - that the structure required in the ring - that of Champions - would in now way hinder or lessen a poodle as a hunter.


I am guessing this is the question to which you are referring : 

"... [how can one] claim that this or that physical trait in a certain breed is "better" or "correct" (whether it be tails or angulation or size or whatever) without consideration of function. The whole hunting issue arises because, where the pointing breeds are concerned (and I suspect the other "sporting breeds" as well, but don't have much experience with those), the really good, competitive dogs often differ markedly in conformation from their "bench" counterparts. To put this bluntly, the great majority of AKC show Pointers (for example) look silly in the field next to a good American Field bred Pointer. And they, the AKC show/pet dogs, for the most part, just can't/won't do it in the field. Conversely, the American Field Pointers would be laughed out of an AKC show. ..." 

If this is correct (i.e., the right question), you appear to have missed the context and the point. whitepoodles is claiming that correct structure as this is defined by THE Breed Standard and interpreted by those who breed dogs for show, ensures that a dog will also be structurally _sound_ in the field. The question was not breed specific, nor was it intended to suggest that the structure as defined in the Breed Standard and interprted in show dogs is incompatible with the structure required for field performance (though it could be and, sometimes, is). The issue amounts to this: it is invalid to claim that the structure as defined by the Breed Standard, and interpreted for the purpose of showing, translates into the structure required for field performance, unless you have tested the structure defined in the Breed Standard and manifest in the show dog _in the field_ or have based the structure defined in the Breed Standard _on field performance_.

I am claiming this assumption is invalid based on evidence, namely, the fact that, in a significant number of breeds, the majority of the top "field" dogs differ markedly in appearance from the "show" dogs (there are exceptions). They differ in these respects, because what _works_ best in the field differs from what is considered _correct_ in the show ring. I am also claiming that _correctness_ must be based on _something_, even if it is merely the current fashion.

What is a CAT title ? ~~~ you can imagine the sort of thing I get when I Google this ...


I have to admit, it really doesn't make sense to me to talk about dogs piecemeal like this. The original objection to whitepoodles claims was not limited to structure. That post is here.


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## whitepoodles

*Draft/sled dogs (including Iditarod)
Dog-carts are now uneconomical. However, draft-work is an honourable part of the background of the breed, and Poodles still enjoy pulling for charity (for example, a light cart carrying a penny-bank in a charity parade).

They also enjoy pulling for sport. John Suter, an Alaskan and all-round athlete, bought three Standard Poodles in 1976; he and the Poodles together began to learn about "dog mushing. During the next 20 years, Suter and the Poodles ran 280 races (including sprint, middle-distance, and long distance), finishing in first, second and third place in 90 of those races." In 1988, with a part-Poodle team, Suter placed 38th out of 52 starters in the 1,100-mile Iditarod Trail Sled Dog Race. He subsequently ran the Iditarod with an all-Poodle team; his team entered and finished the race in 1989, 1990, and 1991. John Suter, "Poodle Sled Dogs in Alaska", Poodle Variety, August-September 1998, p. 34. See also: Website Alaska Mushing Poodles in the Iditarod! a new website which includes "The Poodle Man Song" by Dave Reno. *includes "The Poodle Man Song" by Dave Reno. 

The Complete Standard Poodle, by Eileen Geeson (NY: Howell, 1998), pp. 111-115, including four photographs of Suter and his Poodles at work. 
"Non-Traditional Sled Dogs: a New Look at the Standard Poodle", by Karen Reynolds, Mushing, vol. 8, April-May 1989. 
"Poodles as Sled Dogs", by Debbie McKinney (Daily News reporter), Poodle Variety, April/May 1988, pp. 53-4. 
"Training the Poodle Sled Dog of Alaska", by John Suter, Poodle Variety, June/July 1986, p. 84. 
"Sled Dog Racing with Poodles", by Hilayne Cavanaugh, PV June/July 1982, pp. 18-20. 
For a photo of John Suter's team, see Del Dahl, The Complete Poodle (NY: Howell, 1994), p. 127.

To get a taste of discussion re running Poodles in an extreme test of draft-work see PV, Aug.-Sept., 1991 p. 122 for a letter from John Suter requesting help to save the Poodle Iditarod team; and the Dec. '91-Jan. '92 issue, p. 170, for a letter in opposition to the Poodle team.

For a description of the John Suter the Poodle Man starting the 1991 race behind his Poodle-Team, see "Tracking the Odd [surreal] at the Iditarod," by Jeff Houck, Staff Writer, Palm Beach Post, Sunday, 17 January 1999.

If you wish to delve more deeply into this subject, as of 25 July 1997, Nexis/Lexis (an online information database whose resources include newspapers, magazines, wire services, newletters, journals, and industry analyst reports, broadcast transcripts and more) listed 42 items including John Suter and his team. 

*Donna McLaughlin, of Whitehorse, Yukon, skijours drawn by Standard Poodles. For a photograph of McLaughlin, #59 sponsored by Mutual Life of Canada, racing in 1995's Whitehorse Ski Jour Race, drawn enthusiastically at top speed by her SPs Caper and McCoy, on Saturday, 21 January 1995, at the Annie Lake Recreation Centre, see (Whitehorse) Star Daily, vol. 95, no. 15, Monday, 23 January 1995, p. 1.*
*


Nu2Poodles:

While reading the aforementioned article dealing with several poodle bred by a well known California top breeder/exhibitor of successful show poodles, out of which line she sold Mr. John Sutter a puppy, and he in turn bred them for the purpose he wanted them for, these dogs STILL originated from a CONFORMATION breeder who breeds to THE breed standard without ever putting any of her dogs in a field or hunting.

Her dogs are STRICTLY bred for conformation , never with the desire to train them to hunt. This breeder adheres to THE AKC BREED STANDARD.

Now would you NOT say that a dog be it a standard poodle or a dog of another breed would need stamina, endurance and correct conformation to be able to sustain the rigors and difficulties/hurdles that mushing and sledding demand ? Standard poodles are NOT nordic breeds as such putting a demand on them to perform in 40 degrees Sub zero does pose a certain amount of stress on their bodies not to mention the extreme physical endurance that these poodles must demonstrate in order to successfully finish an iditarod.

Now would you NOT say that mushing and sledding is infinitely more trying and physically harder than a dog going HUNTING with his trainer/master?

And if it has been proven that John Sutter purchased a standard poodle puppy CONFORMING TO THE BREED STANDARD has trained him to mush and sled and then bred to him and created a line of poodles which successfully mushed to WIN the Iditarod for John Sutter, would you NOT say that you would consider SUCH A STANDARD POODLE TO BE AN EXCELLENT PROSPECT FOR HUNTING , AS WELL ??

Thank you again for the invaluable information provided in your previous post.*


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## faerie

there are poodles who do weight pulling. 

kari of moondance standards dog riot is one. (and he's corded. lovely dog)

Riot in his weight pull harness by Moondance Standard Poodles, on Flickr

here is a link to another spoo who is a weight puller.
Akira Poodles - UKC Grand Champion Akira's Pirouette in the Skye for Ciel.written and narrated by Karen Kearney, owner/trainer


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## whitepoodles

I found some helpful information from a hunting poodle friend on what to look for in the puppy.


"Select a pup scoring a 3 or low-4 from the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test. This enables you to rule out the most dominant and most passive pups, then you can evaluate based on:
Retrieve drive. We expand Volhard’s “Retrieving” test by dragging a bird wing across the floor, seeing which pup most enthusiastically chases it. We are looking for a pup that will chase, retrieve and return the object thrown or drug (we also throw small bumpers or rolled up socks). If none return with the object, you at least want one that will pick it up and play with it, with tail up. We even expand to a “tracking” test by placing a wing (with meat on it) in the corner of the pen when we think no pups are watching. We are always amazed at how well some of them use their noses at a very young age. Again, you want them to return the wing to you. NEVER let them eat the wing. We also test a pup’s birdiness by watching its reaction to a live pigeon (flight feathers removed). A pup that will chase the bird and attempt to pick it up is very desirable. (Pigeons are used because they do not peck hard, you don’t want to use a bird that can injure or cause pain to the pup.)
Sound Sensitivity: Careful attention must be paid to a pup’s sound sensitivity. While a pup sensitive to sound can still score an overall 3 or low-4 on the Volhard test, he may not be the pup to have in the field, where frequent gun fire occurs. I am not saying you should rule out a pup that is startled by a cap gun, I am talking about a pup that runs away with tail tucked (the latter is one to avoid).
Conformation: Structure is very important to a dog’s ability to swim long distances with potentially heavy birds in its mouth. You want a dog with a “broad” and deep chest for effective swimming (avoid dogs with narrow chests). Additionally, dogs with ewe necks are almost forced to have to carry heavy birds out of the water to swim effectively (not comfortable for the dog, resulting in reduced performance; perhaps even preventing their ability to return with the bird)."


I want to make sure in the conformation that we are looking for a well built puppy that will do well in the ring as well. I want to have a good conformation poodle that will also do well in hunt, to prove that you can do performance with a conformation poodle 


Can't wait for a Baldr relative 


Lisa


*This is an portion from a client's email who purchased a puppy from me (Baldr) 4 years ago and is now looking for another puppy to purchase to do both conformation AND hunting with. She will be buying a puppy from my June 23rd upcoming litter.

Lisa is a member of PF and is an extremely knowledgeable intelligent lady with a list of wants that I fully realize I must provide her with.

Given I breed my dogs to the breed standard and have had several pups from different litters in past which were evaluated Pat Hasting's method as good and suitable prospects for hunting and retrieving Lisa wrote me to make sure that I not only provide her with a pretty puppy to show but one who can excell in the performance department. 

Please note the information Lisa outlines in her email above as basic requirements (Volhard's method) for such a puppy, to be able to be titled at both ends.*


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> *Nu2Poodles:*
> 
> *Now would you NOT say that a dog be it a standard poodle or a dog of another breed would need stamina, endurance and correct conformation to be able to sustain the rigors and difficulties/hurdles that mushing and sledding demand ?*


Yes, but I would probably not agree that there is one, "correct conformation" that, in conjunction with othe qualities, allows the dog to perform adequately at a given task.





whitepoodles said:


> *Standard poodles are NOT nordic breeds as such putting a demand on them to perform in 40 degrees Sub zero does pose a certain amount of stress on their bodies not to mention the extreme physical endurance that these poodles must demonstrate in order to successfully finish an iditarod.*





whitepoodles said:


> *Now would you NOT say that mushing and sledding is infinitely more trying and physically harder than a dog going HUNTING with his trainer/master?*


I don't know, I don't know much about Iditerod. I did read a little about Suter and his Poodles. Seems he had his difficultes. Was never able to determine precisely why he quit. (I suppose there are lots of _stories_ about it, though.)

We also put dogs in harness for conditioning. We had them pulling against a horse. It is called "roading" and is a good way of conditioning field dogs.




whitepoodles said:


> *And if it has been proven that John Sutter purchased a standard poodle puppy CONFORMING TO THE BREED STANDARD has trained him to mush and sled and then bred to him and created a line of poodles which successfully mushed to WIN the Iditarod for John Sutter, would you NOT say that you would consider SUCH A STANDARD POODLE TO BE AN EXCELLENT PROSPECT FOR HUNTING , AS WELL ??*


No, I would say that that Standard Poodle likely has the basic physical characteristics that would allow it to be a hunting prospect, but that is only a necessary, not a sufficient condition for hunting prospects.

It would be interesting to know what Suter's breeding program was, did he publish it ?




whitepoodles said:


> *Thank you again for the invaluable information provided in your previous post.*


You are welcome.


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## whitepoodles

Nu2poodles:

Thanks again for your response. I do enjoy learning from this thread immensly.

I am off to the dog shows to see my girl Nina strutt her stuff nearby and will respond to your post later. 

It is fascinating how many things people on this forum can learn from each other.

Great post ! thanks


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> I found some helpful information from a hunting poodle friend on what to look for in the puppy.
> 
> 
> "Select a pup scoring a 3 or low-4 from the Volhard Puppy Aptitude Test. This enables you to rule out the most dominant and most passive pups, then you can evaluate based on:
> Retrieve drive. We expand Volhard’s “Retrieving” test by dragging a bird wing across the floor, seeing which pup most enthusiastically chases it. We are looking for a pup that will chase, retrieve and return the object thrown or drug (we also throw small bumpers or rolled up socks). If none return with the object, you at least want one that will pick it up and play with it, with tail up. We even expand to a “tracking” test by placing a wing (with meat on it) in the corner of the pen when we think no pups are watching. We are always amazed at how well some of them use their noses at a very young age. Again, you want them to return the wing to you. NEVER let them eat the wing. We also test a pup’s birdiness by watching its reaction to a live pigeon (flight feathers removed). A pup that will chase the bird and attempt to pick it up is very desirable. (Pigeons are used because they do not peck hard, you don’t want to use a bird that can injure or cause pain to the pup.)
> Sound Sensitivity: Careful attention must be paid to a pup’s sound sensitivity. While a pup sensitive to sound can still score an overall 3 or low-4 on the Volhard test, he may not be the pup to have in the field, where frequent gun fire occurs. I am not saying you should rule out a pup that is startled by a cap gun, I am talking about a pup that runs away with tail tucked (the latter is one to avoid).
> Conformation: Structure is very important to a dog’s ability to swim long distances with potentially heavy birds in its mouth. You want a dog with a “broad” and deep chest for effective swimming (avoid dogs with narrow chests). Additionally, dogs with ewe necks are almost forced to have to carry heavy birds out of the water to swim effectively (not comfortable for the dog, resulting in reduced performance; perhaps even preventing their ability to return with the bird)."
> 
> 
> I want to make sure in the conformation that we are looking for a well built puppy that will do well in the ring as well. I want to have a good conformation poodle that will also do well in hunt, to prove that you can do performance with a conformation poodle
> 
> 
> Can't wait for a Baldr relative
> 
> 
> Lisa
> 
> 
> *This is an portion from a client's email who purchased a puppy from me (Baldr) 4 years ago and is now looking for another puppy to purchase to do both conformation AND hunting with. She will be buying a puppy from my June 23rd upcoming litter.*
> 
> *Lisa is a member of PF and is an extremely knowledgeable intelligent lady with a list of wants that I fully realize I must provide her with.*
> 
> *Given I breed my dogs to the breed standard and have had several pups from different litters in past which were evaluated Pat Hasting's method as good and suitable prospects for hunting and retrieving Lisa wrote me to make sure that I not only provide her with a pretty puppy to show but one who can excell in the performance department. *
> 
> *Please note the information Lisa outlines in her email above as basic requirements (Volhard's method) for such a puppy, to be able to be titled at both ends.*


Great ! Do we have any photos/videos of Baldr _in action _? Did he get titled "at both ends" ?

We sometimes played games of the sort described _in the middle (the "expanded" Volhard's Method)_, for example, using a bird wing to get an idea how a pup will point. This sort of test is fairly commonly done by people looking for field ability of one sort or another (--- did it originate with Volhard ?). But this was very limited, since such games reinforce behaviors you don't want in a Pointing dog, such as sight pointing or scenting with head carried to the ground. But this _is _testing; we just did it in the field, on live game. I'm not certain the "Volhard's method" really has much to do with anything significant in addition to what is common performance testing of pups for the expression of various hunting traits.


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## whitepoodles

*


nu2poodles said:



Great ! Do we have any photos/videos of Baldr in action ? Did he get titled "at both ends" ?

We sometimes played games of the sort described in the middle (the "expanded" Volhard's Method), for example, using a bird wing to get an idea how a pup will point. This sort of test is fairly commonly done by people looking for field ability of one sort or another (--- did it originate with Volhard ?). But this was very limited, since such games reinforce behaviors you don't want in a Pointing dog, such as sight pointing or scenting with head carried to the ground. But this is testing; we just did it in the field, on live game. I'm not certain the "Volhard's method" really has much to do with anything significant in addition to what is common performance testing of pups for the expression of various hunting traits.

Click to expand...

*
Nu2Poodles:

Thanks for responding.. 

At the time I sold Baldr to Lisa she was not interested or involved in performance or conformation.

Since she purchased Baldr she started attending numerous dog shows in New England as well as performance events and came to enjoy both. 

She also travelled to PCA National Specialty to attend and see the trials, which I commend given she is putting all her effort and interest in pursuing these fields.

She decided to purchase a 2nd dog from me and since now her interest has broadened from just having a pet to having one that will test with an apptitude for field work, hunting etc... as well as conform structurally to the breed standard in order for her to be able to title in conformation and later on in the field.

Since I have only temperament tested Baldr before I sold him to her and since you state that the Volhard method of testing the pup's apptitude is not necessarily the correct testing needed in order to determin if a puppy will fit the description of a good hunting prospect I have no idea to tell you whether Baldr's temp test conforms to what you would think would be a good hunting prospect.

Regardless it is not with Baldr that she is interested in purusing conformation and performance but with her new puppy from my June 23rd upcoming litter.

My question to you is, is there A SPECIFIC test that you would highly recommend to me to look for or seek a tester who is proficient in such testing specifically for hunting and what should we look for in a puppy that its owners wants to do hunting with.

Lisa is specifically looking for both conformation and ability of the puppy at the same time to fulfill her wish to hunt with.

Any suggestions or valuable articles I and she can read in order to make sure that the puppy she purchases from me in end of August will correspond to her needs, and I am not speaking her conformation wise, since I know that conformation wise I do breed correct and sound dogs at both ends as well as temperament wise, but I wanted to fine tune my knowledge and hers by asking you to recommend what we should be looking for in order for that specific puppy to excell in hunting and fulfill my client's desire to do this sport with her dog.

Thanks.


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## cliffdweller

whitepoodles said:


> Nu2Poodles:
> ...
> My question to you is, is there A SPECIFIC test that you would highly recommend to me to look for or seek a tester who is proficient in such testing specifically for hunting and what should we look for in a puppy that its owners wants to do hunting with.
> ...
> Thanks.


I assume that by "hunting" you are referring primarily to retrieving, since this appears to be the way most Poodles are used in the field today, and the correspondence you posted suggests that. My knowledge is mostly about _pointing_ dogs (even though I owned Weimaraners, which are "versatile hunting dogs", so expected to retrieve from both land and water). I would suggest that you consult with the people mentioned by NOLA ( here ), who have vastly more experience with Poodles in this capacity than I.

There are different things you are looking for in a dog, depending on what sort of hunting you intend to do. Way back in the thread I linked to a post where I described some of the different types of hunting ( -- I also posted a video of the sport I was involved in there). Each of these different types of hunting will also have different, though overlapping, requirements depending on whether it is going to be personal hunting or competitive hunting. So the first thing you need to find out from your client is what sort of hunting she intends to do. 

For me, it is all about providing the opportunity for whatever ability is innate in the dog to be expressed, and I prefer to do this in the most natural way possible, without a lot of artificial manipulation.


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## DoeValley Poodles

Whitepoodles,
What training methods does your client want to use to train for hunting? Will she be hiring a pro or doing it herself, positive only, e-collar, etc. Will the dog be used in trials & tests, on upland game and or waterfowl, or primarily a hunting partner? Who will she be training with- poodles only or a lab or other breed group. Depending on the above answers I may select a different puppy from the litter. If I were selling a pup to go into a show & hunting home I would have my breed mentor help evaluate conformation and have a well known & respected professional AKC hunt test handler/trainer temperament test the litter using a test that they like. With the data gathered from both evaluations and what I've been seeing over the last weeks I would make the determination.


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## whitepoodles

nu2poodles said:


> I assume that by "hunting" you are referring primarily to retrieving, since this appears to be the way most Poodles are used in the field today, and the correspondence you posted suggests that. My knowledge is mostly about _pointing_ dogs (even though I owned Weimaraners, which are "versatile hunting dogs", so expected to retrieve from both land and water). I would suggest that you consult with the people mentioned by NOLA ( here ), who have vastly more experience with Poodles in this capacity than I.
> 
> There are different things you are looking for in a dog, depending on what sort of hunting you intend to do. Way back in the thread I linked to a post where I described some of the different types of hunting ( -- I also posted a video of the sport I was involved in there). Each of these different types of hunting will also have different, though overlapping, requirements depending on whether it is going to be personal hunting or competitive hunting. So the first thing you need to find out from your client is what sort of hunting she intends to do.
> 
> *For me, it is all about providing the opportunity for whatever ability is innate in the dog to be expressed, and I prefer to do this in the most natural way possible, without a lot of artificial manipulation.*





Nu2poodles:

Thanks again for a detailed response and I am sorry for picking on your brain but the fact that my client wishes to purchase the puppy she will be pursuing hunting with puts a double strain on me to make sure that the puppy I will be selling her will correspond to her needs.

As such I am picking on your brain because you are better versed in your field of interest and expertise (hunting) than I am.. My forte is breeding and exhibiting, although I do adhere to the breed standard and most of the dogs I breed whether show or pets do have the ability to do performance, but I never had a poodle which was a hunter. This is very interesting.

Thanks for referring me to red/apricot breeder Nola. I will send her contact to my client Lisa so that they can communicate directly.

Also I would like to know what you are referring to by the last statement made in your post's last paragraph regarding usage of a natural way without a lot of artificial manipulation.

What does this exactely mean, what artificial manipulations are you referring to ?

In conformation artifical means to exhibit dogs are spray, coloring, tinting, injecting collagen in otherwise flat underjaws, fixing of teeth, artifically straightening an otherwise gay/snappy tail and adding wiggies/hair pieces to the dog's top knot to give the illusion it has more coat than it does. The latter employed by alot of handlers especially when they special a dog on a weekly basis and the spray tends to damage the coat in such a way that it destroyes the ends which break from combing spraying taking out of spray and then re spraying. Most specials sport wigs in their coat...

I have to say though and it will be attested by my handlers that Onyx has such wonderful coat that he never needed nor ever will need to sport artificial means such as wiggies, as he grows his coat naturally 

So please let me know what artifical manipulations you are referring to. I do not want to seem lacking in knowledge about the hunting prospect when selling a puppy as such your insight and input are extremely helpful. I dont know everything, many things but not everything, no one does really.


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## cliffdweller

You've read the response by DoeValley, I hope; much better advice than I could give you and more knowledgeable regarding what you should do.



whitepoodles said:


> Nu2poodles:
> ...
> 
> ... I would like to know what you are referring to by the last statement made in your post's last paragraph regarding usage of a natural way without a lot of artificial manipulation.
> 
> What does this exactely mean, what artificial manipulations are you referring to ?
> ...


There is nothing mysterious here. Remember I mentioned the use of a wing to get an idea how a puppy will look on point (or, perhaps, to see if it has the desire to point) ? By doing this, however, you are also encouraging the puppy to point by sight (something that is very undesirable in a pointing dog). Puppies are impressionable and it is best, in my opinion, to avoid this sort of introduction altogether and just put the puppy out in the field where game is present and let him _discover_ the scent and presence of game. If you have a place where the game (gamebirds, in this case) is actually wild (as opposed to pen-raised and planted), all the better. 

Dogs tune in to all sorts of things. If a puppy's initial experience with game is a wing, which he is able to both scent and see, it may create or enhance his desire to _see_ the bird at the point that he gets it's scent. I believe the more he desires to see the bird, the more likely it is that his style around game will suffer, because he's going to have a tendency to get too close or look around (even if its only with his eyes) trying to see the bird, even while pointing it (ruining his pointing style). We want the dog to have something akin to an orgasm (aesthetic experience ?) at the scent of game alone, and not get excited at the sight of it.

There are a whole myriad of unwanted behaviors of this kind that can be introduced through the various methods we use in testing or training dogs, in virtually every aspect of hunting. I made _lots_ of mistakes of this kind with my dogs (long ago), not realizing what I was doing, and I learned the hard way.

_addendum_ : Take a look at the photo of a field Pointer I posted above ( here -- the black&white Pointer); this dog is on point 20-30' away from the bird, and she will stand there just like that, motionless, through the flush and the shot and until her handler comes to her and takes her away by the collar.


----------

