# Is this customary?



## ChaiPoodle (1 mo ago)

Hello!
First time post, but I’ve been looking at this forum for a while. I’m currently reaching out to miniature poodle breeders in the western US. My last poodle passed away in the spring, and I miss her dearly. I am looking to bring a puppy home in the fall or winter of next year. I’m wondering it it’s customary for breeders to omit the cost of their puppies upfront in the first phone conversation? I completely understand that I would need to provide references and that dedicated breeders most likely have strong feelings about the issue of fee questions, and that there is a lot of heart and time devoted to this vocation. I have also heard it can be seen as rude to send emails asking for costs, etc. I have not done these things in any of my communications with breeders, but I did ask one breeder in a phone conversation about what fees are associated with acquiring a puppy and didn’t get a straight answer. The answer was presented in the manner that I would need to have more conversations with this breeder and they would need to get to know me more, but that I was welcome to put down a deposit and would be put on the wait list. It felt odd to me that I learned of the deposit amount, but not the full price amount. I also wonder, how many conversations do most breeders like to have with their families during the puppy onboarding process? This process seems to have some steps, so I’m trying to orient myself. Sorry in advance for any ignorance on this topic. I’d appreciate any insight.
Thanks


----------



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome, officially !



ChaiPoodle said:


> I’m wondering it it’s customary for breeders to omit the cost of their puppies upfront in the first phone conversation? I


Short answer...Yes it is customary that pricing is not an early topic.

You've hit on the reason. For quality, conscientious breeders, breeding is _not_ a business for them. It's more of a calling. They're not breeding to turn a profit, but are putting in their time, effort, and money so that the poodle breed might profit, for the future of poodles.

References are helpful, but they want to know _you_. You would be taking a member of their family and they want to know that you'll do right by that puppy. I can't find the post to give credit but a member described the early relationship between conscientious breeder and potential new family is more like signing off on a daughters first date prospect .

----



ChaiPoodle said:


> I was welcome to put down a deposit and would be put on the wait list. It felt odd to me that I learned of the deposit amount, but not the full price amount.


Deposits and waitlists are handled as the breeder chooses. It's up to you whether you're comfortable with how they choose to conduct this portion. Deposits can by anywhere from the low-mid hundreds USD up to half the purchase price. Using the first date analogy, now you're talking dowry .
This is a good reason to get to know each other some before any commitment.

I personally wouldn't give a deposit this early in the proceedings. There needs to be an understanding between you and the breeder. Are you both comfortable with each other? You may be in each other's lives, even if only slightly, for the next, hopefully many, years.
What exactly does your deposit obligate you and the breeder to?
Are there any circumstances in which it would be refunded? moved to the next litter?


There seem to be two main ways that breeders handle wait lists and deposits.

To some breeders the two are essentially the same. The new family and the breeder have had back and forth communications, vetted each other (an application also may or may not be required), and there is agreement between all parties. The good faith deposit is placed to hold a suitable puppy but there may not yet be puppies on the ground.

The other way is to follow the same procedures listed above but the waitlist and deposit are treated separately. The waitlist is the breeders way of keeping track of who wants what in a puppy, who's ready for a puppy, but the deposit is not required until puppies are on the ground.

There is a third way that can happen and that's serendipity. Possibly the new family and breeder have already gone thru this process with a prior dog and both feel comfortable with each other. Possibly the new family and breeder are introduced by someone known to each other so they feel comfortable. Waitlists and deposits may not figure in at all, puppies may be on the ground or planned, but the vetting either has been done before or is being vouched for.

Pros and cons to each way but that is between the breeder and the new family.

These are some examples of how a quality breeder handles deposits:

Example A

"Please be as thorough as possible when answering. Your answers help me choose which pup in the litter will be best suited to you and your family. Complete answers go a long way towards matching the best pups for the best families. Filling out the application is not a guarantee of approval. I require a $500 deposit to hold a puppy for approved families. If a litter does not result from a breeding then I will refund your deposit. Your deposit is not refundable in the event that you change your mind, purchase a pup from another breeder, etc. If you wish to be added to my waiting list complete the puppy application. Once approved you may send me a $500 deposit. Families who have been approved and send deposits are given first priority."

Example B

"Step 2: Waiting List

The "waiting list" is a document filled with dozens of potential families for our future puppies. They range in colour preferences, family dynamics, time frames for bringing home a puppy, etc. When we are planning a litter, I will go through the waiting list and contact one family at a time until I find a few homes that are prepared for a new puppy. This is not necessarily a "first come, first serve" basis, but suitable families who have been waiting for 1 year will take priority over suitable families who have been waiting for 3 weeks. The order in which potential owners are contacted entirely depends on what we are expecting in the litter. If the parents of the litter are high energy and known for having more rambunctious puppies, we will be contacting more active and experienced homes. If the parents are mellow and easy-going dogs, we might contact the quieter, less active dog owners on our list.

Step 3: Litter Announcements

Litter announcements are posted on our social media pages, "Puppies" page of our website, and emailed to potential puppy owners (previously contacted and corresponded with before the litter was born). After this announcement, we will maintain contact and provide puppy updates while personalities begin to develop.
Step 4: Matching Puppies to Families

Once the puppies are 4+ weeks old, we will evaluate temperaments and conformation, and decide whether we want to keep back a puppy to show. We typically have input as to which puppy will do best with which family, but the information gathered from 4-6 weeks old will confirm that. We will be able to tell which puppies are shy, high-drive, patient, etc. When possible, we encourage the potential owners to meet the puppy/puppies of our recommendation to ensure it will be a good fit.

Step 5: The Contract

Before taking reservations on any puppies, each potential owner will be emailed a copy of our contract of sale. This document outlines our requirements for spaying/neutering, taking proper care of the dog, and an agreement that the dog will be returned to us if the owners can no longer keep him/her. This contract is to ensure that each party knows their responsibilities, and that the dog will be cared for during their entire life. Any questions or concerns regarding the contract should be addressed before the puppy is reserved.
Step 6: Reservation Fees (Deposits)

A non-refundable fee of $500 is required to reserve a puppy, and goes towards the final purchase price. This secures the puppy to their family until pick-up day. We will then arrange a date and time for pick-up. This is the time to start purchasing supplies, puppy-proofing your household, and brushing up on dog training and behaviour."



Features in common:

There is a planned litter. Each parent has been health tested and then matched to each other for (hopefully) specific results in the litter such as temperament and drive.

The deposit is a good faith guarantee on both sides. The first states that the deposit will be refunded if there is no pregnancy and therefore no puppies. It would not be refunded because the buyer simply changed their mind.

The second breeder requires the non refundable deposit but not til after the puppies are on the ground.

With these types of breeders, they've not only made an investment in all their dogs, they've made an investment in you, the buyer who they've also carefully selected.


Examples of breeders that I'd run from:


Buyer understands that a deposit of $500.00 is required to place a puppy on hold.
Buyer understands the deposit is non-refundable.
Puppy must be paid in full before it will be released or shipped to the Buyer. If payment on the puppy has not been made in full by the
shipping date, or the set receiving date, the Buyer will then forfeit his/her deposit, and any claims on the puppy.
Payment can be made by:
Personal checks are accepted for payment of a puppy. Buyer understands that by paying with a personal check, the puppy will not be released or shipped until the check has cleared the bank.
Paypal, Visa, Mastercard, Discover, or American Express. These payment options will incur an extra 3.5% to cover the bank transaction fee charged by the credit card company (PAYPAL) or independent payment processor. Please contact seller with appropriate information."
"Deposits:
WE DO NOT ACCEPT DEPOSITS ON ANY PUPPY 6 WEEKS OLD OR OLDER. AT 6 WEEKS OLD ONLY PAYMENTS IN FULL WILL BE ACCEPTED. ALL PUPPIES MUST BE PAID FOR IN FULL ON OR BEFORE THE DAY THE PUPPY TURN 6 WEEKS OLD TO HOLD THEM UNTIL THEY ARE 8 WEEKS OLD AND THEY ARE PICKED UP, SHIPPED OR DELIVERED.
When you have decided to purchase your new Standard Poodle puppy from __, prior to the date the puppy turns 6 weeks old you will need to pay:
• $250.00 non-refundable deposit but transferable for Limited Registration on our male or female pups
• $500.00 or $1000.00 for Unlimited Registration on our male or female pups (The $1000.00 deposit price is for our ____)
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account. Send your PayPal payments to ____
• Fill out the contract. Please follow the directions carefully at the top of the contract.
Payment of Balance and Payment in Full:
• If you have put a deposit down on a puppy, PAYMENT IN FULL , minus the deposit amount, and including any shipping charges, is due on or before the day your puppy turns 6 weeks old. If we are delivering your puppy to you in person, you will be required to pay the delivery fee in cash when the puppy exchanges hands. If you are using our flight nanny services all fee must be paid in advance except the $250 flight nanny fee that will be paid in cash directly to the flight nanny.
• If you are purchasing a PUPPY that is 6 weeks old or older and have not previously put down a deposit, PAYMENT IN FULL is required at the time of the commitment to purchase.
• WE DO NOT ACCEPT CHECKS FOR BALANCES OR PAYMENTS IN FULL.
• If you are visiting ___ and picking out, paying for and taking home a puppy all in the same day we only accept Cash or Credit/Debit Card.
• You may pay by Credit/Debit Card. On the right side of each page of the Website you will see the Side Bar. Scroll down on the Side Bar until you see the “PAY NOW” button. Right above that button you will see a drop down box with prices listed, select the appropriate deposit amount of either $250.00 or $500.00 and then click the “PAY NOW” button. You will then be directed to the page where you will enter your credit/debit card information. At the bottom that page you will see, “To pay by credit or debit card click here”. It may also say “Check Out as Guest”. Click there and follow those directions.
• You may also use your Paypal account.
• Send your PayPal payments to __
• If you are purchasing a LIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out the Limited contract
If you are purchasing an UNLIMITED REGISTRATION PUPPY, fill out Unlimited contract"


This all sounds reasonable until you see what is and isn't mentioned. What is mentioned: plenty of talk about payment and nothing else.

No talk of waitlist, no talk of alternatives, no talk of planned litters, planned results, puppies matched to owners needs...just send the money.

----



ChaiPoodle said:


> how many conversations do most breeders like to have with their families


As many as it takes to be comfortable with proceeding or to know that you and the breeder aren't a good fit.

----

If you haven't done this, reach out to the Poodle Club of America's Breeder Referral sources.

PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

A very good sign of a quality, conscientious breeder is one who does the PCA recommended health testing of their breeding dogs.

Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. The recommended testing by The Poodle Club of America is a mix of physical exams and, for each variety, there are also recommended DNA tests.*

The OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) registers testing from other countries as well as from the US.

There are additional poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Miniature Poodle

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
The PCA Foundation strongly recommends the DNA test for Miniature Poodle Dwarfism (Osteochondrodysplasia) to avoid breeding two carriers to each other and producing puppies affected with this deforming and crippling disorder. Research suggests that about 10 percent of Minis carry the mutation that causes this disease and that it is not limited to a few bloodlines.

The PRA test is a DNA test. The others are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

Standard Poodle

*Hip Dysplasia* (One of the following)
OFA Evaluation ➚
PennHIP Evaluation
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Health Elective* (One of the following)
OFA Thyroid evaluation from an approved laboratory ➚
OFA SA Evaluation from an approved dermapathologist ➚
Congenital Cardiac Exam ➚
Advanced Cardiac Exam ➚
Basic Cardiac Exam ➚
The PCA Foundation recommends all three electives for Standard Poodles and also strongly recommends the following DNA tests from an OFA listed lab to easily avoid breeding two mutation carriers to each other and producing affected puppies: DNA Test for Neonatal Encephalopathy with Seizures (NEwS) and DNA Test for vonWillebrand’s Disease (vWD)


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy*
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety recommended by the Poodle Club of America. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, @ChaiPoodle. I’m so very sorry for your loss.

I would also feel weird if a breeder told me the deposit amount, was willing to accept a deposit from me, but would not tell me the price of a puppy. How can you commit a deposit if you don’t know what else you’ll owe? What if it’s beyond your reach or significantly higher than expected? That just doesn’t make any sense to me.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I, too, think it is reasonable to expect the final total at the time you are discussing deposit fees. I understand the initial reluctance to discuss totals (although bringing it up early does weed out tire kickers.) When I've bought puppies in the past I've handled the money discussion simply by rolling it into the broader discussions around the contract and Gotcha Day-- How will puppy selection be handled? When do I owe you a deposit? When do I owe you the final amount? How would you prefer to be paid: check, cash, money order, Venmo, etc? How much should be in each payment? What do you feed the puppy, so I can be sure to have the same brand on hand? What will the pickup date be? Anything else I should know to ease the transition?


----------



## I_love_dogs (May 30, 2021)

When I was trying to decide between a mini and a standard, I found that most of the mini breeders refused to list prices anywhere. They identical statement (literally copy and paste,) about how the dogs were their babies blah blah blah. From the few pages with that statement and prices (usually buried somewhere deep), they are charging different amounts for different colors. One was charging $7k for a red while a solid white or black was about half that. 
That is part of why we ended up with a Standard. The breeder had all the health testing posted on the website and had the price of puppies. They had a slight upcharge for certain colors, but it wasn't double.


----------



## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

I like cowpony's method of making it part of a general discussion once you've decided you like a breeder.
One possibility of why a breeder might not have a firm price to share, is if you are looking farther into the future they may have the price of a puppy somewhat tied to the costs of producing them. 
A lot of those costs (veterinary, food) are in the middle of significant inflation. As a veterinary professional myself we don't know right now if those costs are going to level out or continue to spike for the next while.

You could try asking "For planning purposes and budgeting, what kind of range do your puppies usually go for?"
That should give you a decent general idea without the breeder feeling tied down to a specific price.

I do agree that by the time you place a deposit, you should know a general overall price.


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

I agree that finding a new dog is a challenge. I always just come out and say "I'm on a limited budget and don't want to waste your time if I can't afford one of your lovely dogs."


----------



## TerraFirma (12 mo ago)

In my experience, this is normal regardless of breed. I've had multiple conversations about pups/dogs before we get into the "let's proceed" nitty gritty, and like Cowpony says, it flows naturally in the conversation at that point. If a breeder drops the price straight out of the gate, I'd honestly be concerned that their focus was misplaced.


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Dianaleez said:


> I agree that finding a new dog is a challenge. I always just come out and say "I'm on a limited budget and don't want to waste your time if I can't afford one of your lovely dogs."


I think budget is a legitimate concern. I think puppy price is especially valid in the context of the expenses that went into creating the puppy: showing the parents, health testing, etc. (I still can't grasp the willingness of people to pay the prices of some doodles.) However, I suspect some breeders would consider a strong focus on price to be a red flag in a buyer. Poodles have a lot of ongoing maintenance costs: grooming, vet bills, training, possibly special diets. As the saying about yachts goes: if you have to ask the price you can't afford it. If a $3000 puppy is a dealbreaker, is the buyer going to be able to handle unexpected expenses?


----------



## Dianaleez (Dec 14, 2019)

I totally agree. But everyone involved is truly wasting time if the buyer has no idea of the cost.
So being dropped by a breeder who has dogs out of the buyer's price range is just what it is - reality.


----------



## ChaiPoodle (1 mo ago)

Thank you all for the details, advice and input! I’m glad I asked about the topic of fees here on this forum because I had a notion that the fees/prices could fluctuate depending on how well the buyer is liked by the seller. I also was a bit confused because this breeder also shows and seems to be very busy, so phone conversations seem like a challenge to arrange. To be honest, I was aware of this during my initial call with them and perhaps I didn’t ask enough questions because of time limits. This breeder is very well respected and known, and seems incredibly knowledgeable. I will follow up with them and continue the conversation. I do think it’s important to have a ballpark of costs when putting down a deposit and going over the paperwork. My budget is $2500-$4000 which seems reasonable, I think…I hope!


----------



## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I think most reputable breeders in a given area (and country) are within a stones throw of each other. In the USA, Standards are in a general range of $2000-3000, Miniatures about $2500-3500, and Toys are about $3000-4500. If this is within your budget you probably don't need to discuss price until you're accepted as a prospective buyer. When it's time to exchange transaction details, the price must be disclosed (no later than at the time of deposit). If the prices mentioned above are worrisome for you, you may end up being disappointed. 
In my case my breeder had no concerns giving me a price up front. All breeders are individuals and have thier own ways. 
Sounds like your on your way to becoming a happy poople parent! Best of luck to you!


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I think there’s a big difference between someone starting a conversation with “HOW MUCH?_?_” (sadly, not all that unusual, as I experienced while fostering) and someone needing a price before making a commitment in the form of putting down a deposit.

I would not hesitate to say “_I am excited by your breeding program and the possibility of being an excellent home for one of your beautiful puppies, but I need to know the purchase price before I commit a deposit._”

And not just a ballpark either. I would expect a firm price.

I’ve seen it said repeatedly here that ethical breeders don’t put different price tags on different colours, so I’m not sure why a highly respected breeder wouldn’t have a number for you. Maybe I’m missing something?


----------



## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I think there’s a big difference between someone starting a conversation with “HOW MUCH?_?_” (sadly, not all that unusual, as I experienced while fostering) and someone needing a price before making a commitment in the form of putting down a deposit.
> 
> I would not hesitate to say “_I am excited by your breeding program and the possibility of being an excellent home for one of your beautiful puppies, but I need to know the purchase price before I commit a deposit._”
> 
> ...


Perhaps because the OP is looking to get a puppy next year? but having said that, I too find it odd that a deposit would be accepted by the breeder to be put on a wait list prior to becoming vetted and not being told the final cost of the puppy.


----------



## JasMom (7 mo ago)

ChaiPoodle said:


> I also wonder, how many conversations do most breeders like to have with their families during the puppy onboarding process? This process seems to have some steps, so I’m trying to orient myself. Sorry in advance for any ignorance on this topic. I’d appreciate any insight.
> Thanks


Most breeders I researched asked all prospective puppy people to fill out an application as step 1. This is a way for the breeder to get to know each family and quickly cut out anyone they didn't feel was suitable. From there, the breeder might email or call each family. This was a chance for me to ask the breeder my preliminary questions and decide if we were comfortable with each other. After that, my breeder emailed me a copy of her contract to review and we emailed back and forth a couple of times. We had another phone conversation and then met in person.

I asked my breeder health questions, the feeding regimen the puppies were accustomed to, her recommended grooming tools, etc. She didn't balk when I asked the price. She asked me questions about my experience with Poodles, why I wanted one, what sort of temperament I wanted, what our lifestyle was like. She also asked basic care questions, in particular training and grooming questions. She spent a lot of time ensuring each puppy buyer was aware of the grooming requirements that Poodles have.


----------



## Syleste (Feb 11, 2021)

By the second conversation, a breeder should present you with the testing that has been done of the parents/any testing on pup thus far and the price. There should be a contract; read it carefully as many breeders structure their contracts to be grossly in the favor of the breeder. They tend to grab them off the Internet and tweak them to be most favorable to the seller. Do not sign a contract that waives all warranties by the seller. There are some standard things that get waived, but not a carte blanche waiver. Price should be discussed early in the relationship. Purebred , healthy pups with tested parents and testing appropriate to the pup are costly. If the breeder won’t be candid and work with you as an equal partner on a (property) transaction, look elsewhere.

Full disclosure: I am a lawyer and I do sales contracts, working with both buyers and sellers of animals (equines and canines primarily) as clients. The above is not legal advice as I do not have an attorney client relationship with you, nor am I soliciting you as a client. The above is commentary only.


----------

