# An e-collar question



## fjm

I am starting a new thread, to avoid further hi-jacking Josephine's original request for help.

Whenever I read posts on any forum from people who use e-collars, they always say that they use them at a very low setting - a buzz, rather than pain, or within the lowest 5 - 10% of the power range of the collar. If everybody is using such a tiny power level, why are manufacturers making, and people buying, collars capable of delivering a shock 10 or 20 times as strong? And if they are just being used as a communication or distraction device, rather than a painful aversive, why not use a vibrating collar?

This is a genuine question - it is something that I have been wondering about for some time.


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## JE-UK

That always puzzles me, too. The shock collar party line seems to be that it's a tool, and only non-painful stimulation is used to "get the dog's attention". I use lots of things as attention getters ... the dog's name, a whistle, a hand clap, etc. I don't feel the need to strap a shocking device onto my dog to get his attention. And how tempting must it be to dial up the shock, if your "tingle" attention-getter doesn't actually get the dog's attention?


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## rikkia

TBH I've noticed a recent trend on these boards where such things as advocating ear cropping, docking & electric shock collars are being talked about as if they are all perfectly fine and dandy. Well I happen to think they aren't fine nor dandy.

What annoys me most is a lot of these people advocating the use of such barbaric methods are quite often the first in line 9 times out of 10 to decry choke chains and their ilk or some other barbaric treatment of an animal. If a choke chain is not acceptable then neither is an electric shock regardless of the power behind it.

Even worse is many on here are either looking for advice and help, or lurking for the same advice and help, that is positive to both the owner and the dogs and if seeing such bile being posted by a segment of the community is enough to make me question my membership here, I can only hazard a guess to what the people seeking help think or the lurkers who are dissuaded from joining the community.


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## fjm

I think there is a difference between what is considered the norm in the UK, and that in the US, Rikkia. Which is not to say there are no UK trainers advocating confrontational methods and ecollars, etc - just that public opinion in general and dog owner opinion in particular is against them. The One Show debacle is a good example, as is the policy of the UK APDT as contrasted with that of the US APDT. 

I would really like to understand better how people use e-collars, though, and how much training they had before starting. I can see that using a vibration as communication is not barbaric - vibrating collars are widely used with deaf dogs. Is the dog warned with a vibration, and then given a more painful shock to teach it what the vibration means? Or is the vibration enough to make it look towards the owner, and come back for a reward? And why - as in my original question - is such a huge range from minor tickle to full on powerful knock out electric shock needed?


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## Rowan

rikkia said:


> *TBH I've noticed a recent trend on these boards where such things as advocating ear cropping, docking & electric shock collars are being talked about as if they are all perfectly fine and dandy. Well I happen to think they aren't fine nor dandy.*
> 
> What annoys me most is a lot of these people advocating the use of such barbaric methods are quite often the first in line 9 times out of 10 to decry choke chains and their ilk or some other barbaric treatment of an animal. If a choke chain is not acceptable then neither is an electric shock regardless of the power behind it.
> 
> *Even worse is many on here are either looking for advice and help, or lurking for the same advice and help, that is positive to both the owner and the dogs and if seeing such bile being posted by a segment of the community is enough to make me question my membership here, I can only hazard a guess to what the people seeking help think or the lurkers who are dissuaded from joining the community*.


Boldface font is mine.

I couldn't agree with you more on this point. Sadly, I stopped frequenting this forum due to an influx of new members with attitudes that actually turn my stomach. There are members (new and old) who appear to post merely to cause problems, and then there are those who seem to feel their way is the only way, no discussion allowed. 

Polite discourse and showing respect for those with opposing views isn't practiced by many on this forum, and that's a shame. In another thread, a member suggested that those with opposing views either lack reading and comprehension skills, or that they don't spend adequate time reflecting on this member's opinions. :confused2: 

IMHO, that's not only rude but incredibly arrogant. 

We're not always going to agree on this forum and there will be disputes. There are those who scream and insult others and then there are those who possess the ability to express themselves (debate) in a civil, calm, and rational manner. Personally, I ignore the former and respect the latter.

Thank you, *FJM*, for starting this thread. I predict there are others who have the same question and share the concerns posted herein.


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## Chagall's mom

I haven't a clue as to why the higher settings on e-collar exist, *fjm*, but I want to jump in here with some thoughts. I have had dogs for 45 years. To make my bias completely clear, I've never used, or contemplated using, an e-collar on any of them. My dogs have all been well-behaved and pleasure to live with.

I have only anecdotal evidence here, but e-collars are not widely used in my circle. I'd venture to guess the same holds true for most members and lurkers of this forum, both in the states and abroad. (We could poll the membership to find out for certain, and I'll keep an eye out to see whether anyone organizes a group buy for them.) 

Yesterday I asked our veterinarian his thoughts on using an e-collar on a _4 month old miniature poodle_. He flat out said it was "Completely unnecessary." Both my son-in-law and his father have trained their six hunting dogs successfully without using them. I realize there will never be a consensus as to their use, nor a very polite or pleasant debate about them here. So be it. 

As to the few who feel the need to mock those who express genuine horror about an e-collar being used on a_ puppy_, perhaps they lack the tolerance gene. I am tolerant enough not to mind if they put their e-collars around their own necks, turn the power up high and go soak in a tub of water (tap or double-helix). The reality is every dog has to deal with the owner it has, for better or worse. Happily for us, we can chose the people who fill our lives.


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## Countryboy

Chagall's mom said:


> I am tolerant enough not to mind if they put their e-collars around their own necks, turn the power up high and go soak in a tub of water (tap or double-helix).


I am not tolerant enuf to put up with an opinion like that. That people who don't agree with u should be harmed???? 

I agree with fjm and JE on many points. But u and they will not be convinced of the usefulness of e-collars. So I choose not to argue with y'all. It's pointless.

But any further statements like that will be reported.


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## Olie

The strange hypocrisy on judging others for cruelty yet being cruel themselves...

This forum is a walk in the park compared to most.... 

I imagine the amount of vibration/shock has to do with the size of the dog and the degree of training being completed?? I find that in this general section of training (on this forum)- is limited due the amount of people on this forum as well as level of experience with these type of "tools".

I have considered the e-collar - as so many have, however I have yet to find an experienced person that I can get solid information on its effectiveness.


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## fjm

CB - I am genuinely trying to find out how these collars are used - please could you explain how you use them, and why - and under what circumstances - you consider them better than other methods? Perhaps those who have posted that we only oppose them out of ignorance are right (although I will take some convincing, as I have researched them in some depth!), but while those who support them refuse to discuss the issue sensibly we will never know. Perhaps you are right that we are coming from entrenched positions, but that should not preclude polite debate.


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## stealthq

Olie said:


> I imagine the amount of vibration/shock has to do with the size of the dog and the degree of training being completed?? I find that in this general section of training (on this forum)- is limited due the amount of people on this forum as well as level of experience with these type of "tools".


Not to mention the level of distraction and/or drive the dog is in, plus whether the dog is hard or soft. People forget that the e-collar isn't just a training tool - it's meant to be on the dog 100% of the time so it can be used at any point (say, as your dog is barreling towards a busy intersection after slipping loose of the leash), not just in a training session.

The trainer I know who uses them the most trains SAR dogs. He uses them on his dogs because he is working at long distances and sometimes in very dangerous situations. He won't gamble that his dogs might choose not to listen to him at a critical moment. He also advocates using the e-collar as a tool to his regular clients, but it's just a tool and he can and will help you train your dog just as well using marker training. It's just that marker training takes a lot longer which isn't appealing to many people. The e-collar also seems to magically mitigate the 'butt-head' adolescent phase just like tethering said 'butt-head' to you would. Basically, the dog learns that there is no situation where he's out of reach. Tends to make him mind his manners more. 

Oh, and before anyone jumps down my throat, I've never used an e-collar myself. I prefer marker training. But, having been around the training and having tested the collars myself, I see nothing wrong with it so long as it's used CORRECTLY.


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## Brittany May

Alrighty...

I stuck out of the other thread, because I did not want to contribute to the derailing of the OP's thread...

IMHO - Shock collars have their place. I even considered using one with Lacey, once upon a time when she thought that chasing the neighbours cows was fun. I know that in Australia, at least, a farmer can shoot on sight if a predatory animal is on their land. I was prepared to undertake any method I had to to stop this behaviour.

The thing that stopped me from buying a shock collar was my parents, actually. My parents have old school methods of training (my mother is learning - My dad, well, he is a bit of a lost case really) and I could not trust them to treat the shock collar correctly. So I put up the next best thing - an electric tape fence.

Oh, Lacey howled when she first touched it. She yelled and screamed and made out like it was the worst thing in the world. I have been zapped by this same fence before so I know that it wasn't painful (it did short out through a metal gate once - that put me on the ground, but wasn't painful.) She bolted through the fence, and almost ran away until I called her back. She had to get through the fence again to get back to me, but she didn't get zapped that time. She was still screaming profanities at the fence by the time she got back to me.

The next time she got zapped, it got her nose. She was sniffing it, and it zapped her whisker. She made such a racket that I flew outside, thinking she had seriously injured herself. She was desperate to get inside, but I made her stay out.

After that, she was respectful of the fence. We had electric currents running through our normal wire fences, too. She tried to slip under that one to get into the horses paddock. She was zapped, and is now respectful of all fences.

Anyway, I am getting off topic.

What I am trying to say is that there is usually always a better method for training than a shock collar. I chose the electric fence because the only thing that I needed it for with Lacey was halting the cow chasing behaviour. Others may need one for different things. I definitely do not agree with one being used on a 4 mth old miniature puppy - but I do not think it is barbaric. Barbaric would be hauling the puppy out of his crate when he cries and holding him by the scruff of the neck and belting him. ( I saw a person do that once to a young puppy - and then when Lacey whined because she was tied up at their place, she went looking for a stick. Oh. Hell. No. Woman.)

I do not think it warrants abuse or ridicule of people who disagree with your opinion. Shock collars have their place in training, like prong collars, or choke collars, or even clickers. _In the right hands, for the right situation, and used correctly_ they are perfectly fine.

The member who is using a shock collar to train their puppy not to whine in the crate - I am sure they could find a better method. Or maybe if they had prepared their fiance for a young puppy in the house, who is _guaranteed_ to cry, then such measures would not have been needed. But ultimately, it is their dog, and I do not believe they are being cruel with their use of it, which would be turning it up to the highest setting and unnecessarily causing the dog pain, or using it out of anger. We can not do anything to change the way this person is training their dog, so IMO - let it be.

FJM, the only reason I could think of as to why they would manufacture the collars to have higher settings, is for the more difficult dogs? 

This forum is actually really tame compared to others I have been on. I have been torn apart many a time. This forum is great, and from what I have seen safe for members, and why not keep it that way, and be respectful, even with differences in opinion?


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## JE-UK

stealthq said:


> It's just that marker training takes a lot longer which isn't appealing to many people.


That's what I've seen as well. I think the average pet owner wants to put in, max, the length of a puppy obedience class into the dog's training, and that's it. Any problems that arise after that, point a shock collar or some calm assertive energy at it and fix it right now. Oddly, a dedicated 10 minutes a day of reinforcement/reward training would probably fix 99% of common problems. 



stealthq said:


> But, having been around the training and having tested the collars myself, I see nothing wrong with it so long as it's used CORRECTLY.


That's the thing, though, isn't it? I'd have less of a problem with tools like these if they were licensed and controlled, instead of available to any ignorant oik with a credit card and an untrained dog. Anyone can get one of these things. And even the trainers that I've read that use them say that they have to be used with caution, that the trainer needs excellent understanding of dog body language and truly superb timing for them to be effective. How many people have that? I am constantly trying to improve, and my timing SUCKS! But the outcome of a poorly timed reward is, whoops, an extra treat. The outcome of a poorly timed shock is heartbreak.

From the Kennel Club's evidence paper on shock collars:

“A woman who used (remote control) electric collars in a bid to tame her dogs today called for them to be banned after her pets killed another dog. She sought the help of a behaviourist when (the dogs) started to run away…but the first time the dogs got a shock was by mistake, after a small dog they were walking past made Miss Langridge jump. From then on her pets associated the shocks with small dogs and became afraid of them”. Miss Langridge described the incident: “I saw an old lady walking towards me with her little Shih Tzu…As she passed my dogs went for her dog…It was taken to the vet but they had to put it down…(my dogs) had never harmed anything before. They grew up around animals…I realised they connected the pain of the electric shock with little dogs because of the first time I used the collar.”

There's a long-standing (and similar) debate in the horse world. There are a class of bits called spade bits, horrid things that can cause permanent physical and psychological damage to a horse if misused. The argument is always that when used by a finely-trained rider on a finely-trained horse, there is no possibility of misuse. But then, of course, a finely trained rider on a finely trained horse doesn't NEED a great honking wad of sharp metal in the horse's mouth :smile:. Catch-22.


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## fjm

stealthq said:


> The trainer I know who uses them the most trains SAR dogs. He uses them on his dogs because he is working at long distances and sometimes in very dangerous situations. He won't gamble that his dogs might choose not to listen to him at a critical moment. He also advocates using the e-collar as a tool to his regular clients, but it's just a tool and he can and will help you train your dog just as well using marker training. It's just that marker training takes a lot longer which isn't appealing to many people.


So how is the dog taught that the collar means he has to listen to his human? I can see using it as an aversive to mark unwanted behaviour, but I cannot quite see how you would use it to teach a recall - unless a constant aversive is kept up all the time the dog is doing anything other than the desired behaviour?


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## JE-UK

I find it interesting, too, that judges are quick to call shock collars "torture" if applied to human. 

Florida Man Arrested For Torturing Little Girls With Dog Shock Collar

Man Allegedly Shocks Stepdaughter With Dog Collar - ABC News

Ohio dad who shock-collared kids gets 16 years - USATODAY.com

If it's torture when applied to a human, isn't it torture when applied to a dog?


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## stealthq

JE-UK said:


> That's what I've seen as well. I think the average pet owner wants to put in, max, the length of a puppy obedience class into the dog's training, and that's it. Any problems that arise after that, point a shock collar or some calm assertive energy at it and fix it right now. Oddly, a dedicated 10 minutes a day of reinforcement/reward training would probably fix 99% of common problems.


That actually isn't quite what I meant (though I see the point). I meant that the actual time it takes from starting to teach the trick to, say 80% reliability is shorter with the e-collar than with any other method I've seen used by your average pet owner. Especially if the person is low energy, doesn't believe in treats, or is in some other way not good with training. The e-collar is simple and emotionless. The dog pays attention (which seems to be the biggest stumbling block while training - I have this problem big-time), and learns relatively quickly. The owner is happy with a dog that is listening, so there tends to be less frustration. 

The e-collar is NOT supposed to be a punishment. It is supposed to be like someone tapping you on the shoulder to get your attention and that is it. Obviously, any idiot can crank it up and shock the bejeezus out of the dog. Anybody can hang the dog from the ceiling using a flat collar and leash, too. Any tool can be misused.


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> So how is the dog taught that the collar means he has to listen to his human? I can see using it as an aversive to mark unwanted behaviour, but I cannot quite see how you would use it to teach a recall - unless a constant aversive is kept up all the time the dog is doing anything other than the desired behaviour?


It depends on the method. There are two main ones that I know of and I've only seen one in practice. One is a Leerburg-type method. Here the dog must know the command inside and out first. You give a command. Dog obeys, end of exercise. Dog doesn't obey, you give a stim while repeating the command - if the dog knows the command it should obey at this point. If not, evaluate whether you need to go back and proof the command (99% of the time, this is what you do) or whether you need to increase the stim (for example, in really high distraction situation). This method, you never stop using the collar, it is meant to be on always.

Second method is Lou Castle's. I've only heard of this one. It really interests me because it is designed so you eventually wean your dog off of the collar unless you need 100% reliability and the dog is working (SAR, police dog, etc.). It is supposedly the best for training a 100% bomb-proof recall, and some people use it for that purpose only. It is also rather counter-intuitive to me, yet has proven results training dogs not to take off after deer, and to counter-condition against dog-dog aggression. To me, this is big. If you hurt, shock, or startle a dog when they're in that aggressive mindset then usually you just ramp them up. This method isn't doing that, which to me means it probably isn't hurting, shocking, or startling the dog.

For his method, you use a much lower stim than for Leerburg's. The lowest level where there is any kind of reaction from the dog - a skin flick or ear twitch is sufficient. The reason is that you start and hold the stim, then give the command and you do not want to hurt the dog. When the dog responds correctly, the stim stops. If the dog doesn't know the command, you guide them immediately into the correct response. Here's where my knowledge ends - I followed an interesting debate between Lou and some members on the GSD forum on the pros and cons of both methods, but can't remember the particulars and don't want to misrepresent. Lou has his own web page describing some of his techniques - he also trains K9 units and SAR dogs. I'd go there if you want more info.


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## stealthq

JE-UK said:


> I find it interesting, too, that judges are quick to call shock collars "torture" if applied to human.
> 
> Florida Man Arrested For Torturing Little Girls With Dog Shock Collar
> 
> Man Allegedly Shocks Stepdaughter With Dog Collar - ABC News
> 
> Ohio dad who shock-collared kids gets 16 years - USATODAY.com
> 
> If it's torture when applied to a human, isn't it torture when applied to a dog?


Again, any tool can be used in cruel and tortuous ways. Those same people can take a flat collar and leash and string them up with it, certainly could kill a child doing that. Probably has happened somewhere in the world, sadly enough.

Think about it this way. There's nothing inherently cruel about carrying a crop when riding. Tapping a horse on the shoulder as a cue to speed up is not cruel. Taking the same crop and beating the horse with all your might, is. It's all in the context and how it is used.


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## fjm

Thank you, stealthq. I find it interesting that both the methods you describe - and your words "tap on the shoulder" - imply a very low level of shock. So even if the "tap" level is say level 5, and the increased level 4 times that, I still don't understand why collars go up to 100 and beyond. The biggest danger with these collars seems to be inexperienced owners using them to inflict real pain on their dogs with poor timing - surely a collar that simply cannot inflict that level of pain on a dog (or in crazy hands on a child) would do the job equally well, and far more safely?


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> Thank you, stealthq. I find it interesting that both the methods you describe - and your words "tap on the shoulder" - imply a very low level of shock. So even if the "tap" level is say level 5, and the increased level 4 times that, I still don't understand why collars go up to 100 and beyond. The biggest danger with these collars seems to be inexperienced owners using them to inflict real pain on their dogs with poor timing - surely a collar that simply cannot inflict that level of pain on a dog (or in crazy hands on a child) would do the job equally well, and far more safely?


Well, the collars that I'm familiar with have only 10 levels - the guy I've been talking about uses one of the Dogtra models, which is pretty popular. Soft dogs start at 1. Most dogs are at 2 - 4. Hard dogs start around 5 - 7. Increasing a stim is only one level at a time. For normal training, there's no reason to have anything higher. Even with these, you can still screw up and give your dog a higher stim than he needs. The guy I've been talking about had an incident in his class where two dogs with different stim levels had collars that worked on the same frequency. That was very bad - the lower level dog was getting stims when he wasn't being trained and at too high a level. He was very confused and upset until the trainer figured out what was going on and had each owner remove the collar from their dog when the other person was working.

Now, I have heard about training for personal protection dogs where an e-collar is used to pressure the dog, but that is a whole different ball game. That is not training for sport, but for serious guard work. Those dogs are getting hit, kicked, etc. as well to teach them to fight through the opposition. Not the token swats they get in Schutzhund. I would imagine that this is where the high level collars would be used in a ?legitimate? way. The question mark is because I know nothing about training serious guard dogs, and for all I know this can be trained in another way without the opposition.


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## fjm

That is interesting, Nicole, because I have wondered about the use of these collars to train illegal fighting dogs. Police dogs in the UK are not trained using these methods - in fact great emphasis is placed on using reward based training - and yet they are very effective. I'm less sure about Personal Protection Dogs as that is an unregulated field.

Everything you say is rather confirming what I thought - these collars, especially in the wrong hands, are a high risk strategy for reducing the amount of effort needed to train a dog.


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## Countryboy

stealthq said:


> The e-collar is NOT supposed to be a punishment. It is supposed to be like someone tapping you on the shoulder to get your attention and that is it.


That's certainly MY idea of an e-leash.

Once upon a time Tonka and I were at the kennels in the field abutting the boarding runs. Of course, all the boarded dogs were out to see what was going on and Tonka was barking at them . . his back to me. A couple of times I 'barked' at him to stop. He turned his head around both times but, since I was 20' away, he ignored me completely.

I stopped wasting my breath and headed toward him . . got close enuf to give him a tap on the butt . . . just a touch, really . . with the long-handled yard scoop that I was carrying. His head whipped around and the look of surprise on his face was almost comical.

But he stopped barking immediately!
..................................................................

If I was to get a remote device, and start training with it, the first 'subject' would be me. On the 'level of stimulation' I'd be looking for something akin to tapping the back of my hand with a popsicle stick. I can't see any more being necessary. Only after I tried it on myself would I put it on Tonka.

The 'remote trainer' recommended to me is the Sport Basic G3 EXP from Tritronics. The manual doesn't seem to be accessible from that link but I found it elsewhere.

Here is what it says regarding setting intensity levels for training.

Choosing the Correct Intensity Level
Selecting the intensity suitable for training your dog is next. You should begin using the lowest level of stimulation and observe the dog’s response. This should be done when the dog is not distracted and no command has been given. If there is no reaction, such as a head shake, neck movement or just a change in expression, increase intensity by one level. Keep increasing the level of stimulation until there is a slight but discernible physical reaction from the dog. The intensity level that causes this reaction is your base line level for beginning collar training. You do not need to, and should not, apply this intensity selection test again. Once you begin training the dog’s performance guides your intensity selection. As the dog advances in training you may need to change the level depending upon circumstances. Please keep in mind that sometimes dogs will vocalize due to the surprise of the electrical stimulation. But if the dog vocalizes more than once, the intensity level is too high for beginning training.
Switch it down.


I don't have a problem with this. I'm sure I could spot "a slight but discernible physical reaction". And would need no higher level. Just enuf to get his attention. 

Here's a link to the whole manual in .pdf format if anybody wants to read what a manufacturer has to say abt these devices.

In fact, I would like to take it one step further to a 'beeper'. In which a tone alerts a dog to a coming 'shock'. It doesn't surprise me at all that Poodles would learn quickly to the tone alone and never again need any further correction . . . like Plum's gang.

Really, I think the whole thing is a bit of a toy . . . and the biggest reason I haven't gone there yet. The only thing I would need it for is recall. So all I need is the ability to 'tap him on the shoulder' from a distance. Two . . three . . maybe even four times . . . who knows.

But then I bet I'll never have to press the 'correction' button again.


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## fjm

So if you just want the communication of a "tap on the shoulder", why not use a vibrating collar?


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## Countryboy

fjm said:


> So if you just want the communication of a "tap on the shoulder", why not use a vibrating collar?


Links, fjm! I need links!! 

Seriously tho, I do. *Well . . I don't really. I can search as well as the next person.  lol*

But honestly??? . . . I've never heard of vibrating collars before. I'll be looking at them immediately.


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## Chagall's mom

fjm said:


> So if you just want the communication of a "tap on the shoulder", why not use a vibrating collar?


Someone on our road has a deaf, white Boxer. They use a Dogtra Vibration Collar with a non-electrical, stimulating Pager / Vibration function.


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## cookieface

stealthq said:


> It depends on the method. There are two main ones that I know of and I've only seen one in practice. One is a Leerburg-type method. Here the dog must know the command inside and out first. You give a command. Dog obeys, end of exercise. Dog doesn't obey, you give a stim while repeating the command - if the dog knows the command it should obey at this point. If not, evaluate whether you need to go back and proof the command (99% of the time, this is what you do) or whether you need to increase the stim (for example, in really high distraction situation). This method, you never stop using the collar, it is meant to be on always.
> 
> Second method is Lou Castle's. I've only heard of this one. It really interests me because it is designed so you eventually wean your dog off of the collar unless you need 100% reliability and the dog is working (SAR, police dog, etc.). It is supposedly the best for training a 100% bomb-proof recall, and some people use it for that purpose only. It is also rather counter-intuitive to me, yet has proven results training dogs not to take off after deer, and to counter-condition against dog-dog aggression. To me, this is big. If you hurt, shock, or startle a dog when they're in that aggressive mindset then usually you just ramp them up. This method isn't doing that, which to me means it probably isn't hurting, shocking, or startling the dog.
> 
> For his method, you use a much lower stim than for Leerburg's. The lowest level where there is any kind of reaction from the dog - a skin flick or ear twitch is sufficient. The reason is that you start and hold the stim, then give the command and you do not want to hurt the dog. When the dog responds correctly, the stim stops. If the dog doesn't know the command, you guide them immediately into the correct response. Here's where my knowledge ends - I followed an interesting debate between Lou and some members on the GSD forum on the pros and cons of both methods, but can't remember the particulars and don't want to misrepresent. Lou has his own web page describing some of his techniques - he also trains K9 units and SAR dogs. I'd go there if you want more info.


Nicole - Thank you for the detailed explanation. Both methods make sense from a learning theory perspective (positive punishment / negative reinforcement), but it was interesting to read the "in practice" description.

I can't imagine using an e-collar; however, my husband keeps talking about a vibrating one (for our dog with selective hearing  So far, I've told him _absolutely not_.


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## Olie

fjm said:


> So if you just want the communication of a "tap on the shoulder", why not use a vibrating collar?


Now this I would not hesitate to use. I was assuming both were being discussed. 

After all items that vibrate are relative to humans as well


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## Chagall's mom

*fjm*: It appears by starting the discussion on the use of shock collars as you did, you've opened up some hearts and minds to the use of vibrating collars instead. Woohoo!:whoo: A stunning victory, for which I thank you! I do believe you this qualifies you for a Nobel Prize.:first:


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## Brittany May

I didn't even know vibrating collars existed.

If they are what the name says they are, then I would use one if I needed to.


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## DivinityPoodles

Thank you for starting this thread... I thought about it but figured it would be s*** disturbing.

I have only recently started using an ecollar. I never really had an issue in the past but also didn't do the same things with my other dogs. 
We got an ecollar because Cale decided as he came into his adolesence that he only knew how to come sometimes. Now when we are in a fenced area and he decides he doesn't need to have a recall, it is at worst frustrating but when he decided to bolt out the front door & was now on the street heading in all directions and of course play bowing & charging off and back, it became a serious threat. Yes, he was trained. Yes, he had a long line on and then off then on again. And YES he still managed to get into a dangeous situation twice and we decided that an ecollar was preferable to death. We had our breeder show us how to use it and we have had him bolt on us without the collar and he returned at the first call. We will use it for hunting and as one person put it on another forum I am on... I would rather have the absolute knowledge that I can press the button and know that I can get the attention than have a dead dog. We work with our dogs at great distances, with great drive and in some dangerous situations... better safe than sorry. 

Having been involved with some field trial Labs and speaking to their trainers and owners, the higher settings seem to be there for the dogs that are so very driven as to ignore the lighter 'shocks'. I have seen some awful things done with the ecollar but I suspect that regardless of the tools used by those people, the results would not be pretty.

I agree that positive/reward based training is preferable and when an ecollar is used properly, you are not teaching a behaviour with it. The dog already knows the behaviour, you are simply reinforcing that the dog must comply at ALL times. Someone with a related dog to mine said, It is the hand of God reminding them that we know best. And I couldn't agree more.

Countryboy... the tritronics collar you are talking about has a tone alert. I tried it today and had Cale looking behind him for where the sound was coming from but he still continued to come to me. We'll see how well that works when we are not in the house.


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## fjm

I suppose that the big difference is that a vibrating collar is used to signal Good Stuff if you focus on what you human is asking, whereas a shock collar is used to enforce Bad Stuff if you don't. If a dog has learned that the human voice is not a good predictor of it being worth coming when called then perhaps an alternative signal would be helpful, but it would be a lot cheaper and more reliable to teach a good recall when they are pups - or buy a whistle!


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## Countryboy

Thanx for that, LMS. I guess that's what the buzz button is for?? 

Anyway, lookin' for info on that button, I kinda got sidetracked. But I did run into a video that showed me a lot abt training dogs with an e-leash. So I'm gonna share it with u now and get back to browsing abt these devices. 

With one comment...

At the end of the first video, the dog seemed more reluctant to respond. My guess is that the dog got interested in a smell comin' from the grass, nearer to the camera and to the right of centre.

I would have picked u on that real quick!






Well, maybe two comments... 

This says nothing about what constitutes a 'nick'. I have no idea what it is. Maybe it's in another of these series of videos from Garmin on the use of e-leashes.


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## BorderKelpie

Interesting discussion.

I use an e-collar with pager (vibrate) for my deaf dog. I have been advised that I need to start getting comfortable with it to discourage my GSD in training for Sch as she really, really wants to eat my cats and is highly reactive to dogs. I purchased a highly recommended training dvd and am a member of a training club willing to work with me. 

To be perfectly honest, my kids (teens) and I have tried it on each other - low settings, just to experience what it can do. I am not yet comfortable using it on the dog yet (except for the paging option on the deaf dog - works like a charm, charge it like you would a clicker, no pun intended. The paging option is also working on my hearing dog who gets extremely distracted easily.) I do really like the paging option, I am still working on confidence and skill with the stim. I really need to do something before I loose a cat or a neighbor looses a pet. Treats can only go so far in a highly prey driven dog with the breeding my Zeva has. I will continue with the treats and toys and play, but I really can not run the risk of another animals' life. 

I have seen the e-collars used well and misused in training avenues. We have learned a vast amount about training and behavior modification in just the past decade. I hope we, as humans, continue to improve our communication skills with animals of all species. 

This is a tool, in the proper hands, an incredible tool. But, just like anything else, can be horribly misused. 
Shoot, I'm still trying to get my mom to stop thinking that obedience training is cruel. But, then, she won't even let her dogs in her house. 8 years old and doesn't know how to walk on a leash. oops, I digress.

My dogs even like their prong collars. I am talking about herding dogs, my poodles get their feelings hurt if I verbally correct them.

I love poodles, they're so easy.


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## BorderKelpie

lol - CB, my poodle Paige watched the video you linked. I hope she learned something. Her recall isn't perfect, yet. I guess I could just put Zeva's collar on Paige, wouldn't even have to turn it on, it is probably heavy enough to slow her down so I could catch her if needed. 

Seriously, thank you for the video link. It does demonstrate the nick or stim as more of an attention-getting device than an actual punishment.


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## fjm

I have to say that I am instinctively put on my guard by any method that requires the use of euphemisms. "Collar pops", "stims", "nicks" ... if you are happy to tug on your dog's leash, or give him an electric shock why not say so? Clarify that the shock is mild, or the tug angled to do minimal damage, if those are the case, but spinning the description does not change the reality. "Friendly fire", "collateral damage", "extraordinary rendition" - doublespeak in action!


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> I have to say that I am instinctively put on my guard by any method that requires the use of euphemisms. "Collar pops", "stims", "nicks" ... if you are happy to tug on your dog's leash, or give him an electric shock why not say so? Clarify that the shock is mild, or the tug angled to do minimal damage, if those are the case, but spinning the description does not change the reality. "Friendly fire", "collateral damage", "extraordinary rendition" - doublespeak in action!


Nah, I understand it. To me, a collar pop is actually different than a tug on the leash and the change in term lets me know what is meant. To me, a tug is a more sustained action and might involve some muscle and actual pulling - say if I'm going one way and my dog is determinedly trying to go another (say into traffic), which is a daily occurrence for me at the moment. 

On the other hand, if I'm doing a collar pop (last dog I had was in the 90's so it was still THE way to train), I'm just doing a quick snap of the wrist, no pulling, no arm movement, no sustained tightening of the collar. I'm just using a flat buckle collar these days, so no collar pops for me ... they'd be pointless.

As for using another term for electric shock, well, it's pretty obvious that term already comes with an impressive set of negative connotations. People envision cattle prods, the electric chair, all those "Warning, Risk of Death from Electric Shock" tags we're subjected to on hair dryers and other household appliances. I can't blame people for wanting to pick a nice neutral term.

Besides, can you imagine trying to teach someone to train their dog if you couldn't just use 'stim' or 'nick' as shorthand and instead had to substitute 'an electric shock, but just at the level where he first perceives it' every time? My mouth'd be so dry and my tongue so tangled I'd be useless.


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## fjm

I still think these nice neutral terms are a way of hiding from the reality of what is being done. After all, the words "electric shock" come with negative associations for a reason - they are damned uncomfortable things! Even a small jolt of static is unpleasant, while as for the time I managed to get my thumb in a live socket while changing a light bulb ... And I am still far from convinced that people are only using the minimum, attention getting level of shock. What happens the first time the dog ignores the minimal shock? Does the power get ratcheted up?


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## liljaker

JE-UK said:


> I find it interesting, too, that judges are quick to call shock collars "torture" if applied to human.
> 
> Florida Man Arrested For Torturing Little Girls With Dog Shock Collar
> 
> Man Allegedly Shocks Stepdaughter With Dog Collar - ABC News
> 
> Ohio dad who shock-collared kids gets 16 years - USATODAY.com
> 
> If it's torture when applied to a human, isn't it torture when applied to a dog?


Sort of like using a tazer on someone I'd guess? And, we've all seen how that appears. Sorry everyone, I find the discussion sort of upsetting and think of a miniature poodle getting zapped just about makes me sick. Sorry, I don't agree with anyone on this forum that there is a reason to use it on a puppy --- and since we are all entitled to our opinion, I am entitled to mine. I am now going to try and have lunch.


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## fjm

I absolutely agree liljaker that there can be no justification for using a shock collar on a puppy. I have yet to be convinced that there is a justification for using one on any dog. Either it is used on the lowest possible setting as an attention getter, in which case a vibrating collar without any painful settings, a voice cue or a whistle would seem to be equally effective, or it is being used to inflict pain as a positive punishment or negative reinforcement. But pain is the one word no one has yet used about them - "stim", "nick", "tap", but not pain. So are they never used to inflict pain, or is the argument that dogs don't feel pain?

I know we would all love to find instant solutions to all our training problems, but even the supporters of e-collars are saying that they should not be - in fact cannot be - used to teach a behaviour, only as a final proofing of that behaviour. I am far from convinced that that is how they are being sold. I suspect there is a deep seated feeling that they provide a sort of remote control for dogs ...

Bottom line, would you use one on a child? On a toddler? On an older child with severe learning disabilities, who is prone to running away?


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## liljaker

I have an idea, for those who advocate it, how about trying it on their husband, for instance, or maybe one of their kids???? Well, if it does not cause pain -- why not?


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## fjm

Research findings:
Are Shock Collars Painful or Just Annoying to Dogs? A 2004 Study Reveals Some Answers | Animal Behavior and Medicine Blog | Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS


A very detailed literature review www.4pawsu.com/IAABC_Ecollar.pdf
From Wiki:
Schalke et al. study (2007)
...
The evidence of increased stress in the other groups was felt to support earlier findings that poor timing and/or inappropriate use of a shock collar puts the dog at high risk of severe and ongoing stress. They conclude that "The results of this study suggest that poor timing in the application of high level electric pulses, such as those used in this study, means there is a high risk that dogs will show severe and persistent stress symptoms. We recommend that the use of these devices should be restricted with proof of theoretical and practical qualification required and then the use of these devices should only be allowed in strictly specified situations."

Schilder & van der Borg study (2004)
... The authors concluded "We concluded that shocks received during training are not only unpleasant but also painful and frightening."


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> I still think these nice neutral terms are a way of hiding from the reality of what is being done. After all, the words "electric shock" come with negative associations for a reason - they are damned uncomfortable things! Even a small jolt of static is unpleasant, while as for the time I managed to get my thumb in a live socket while changing a light bulb ... And I am still far from convinced that people are only using the minimum, attention getting level of shock. What happens the first time the dog ignores the minimal shock? Does the power get ratcheted up?


Really? All electrical shocks are necessarily painful or unpleasant? Because people use electric shock as part of massage therapy, and it's supposed to be a nice sensation and great deep-tissue massage. A friend of mine injured herself in a terrible motorcycle accident, and the doctor used electric shock to stimulate micro-muscle movements and improve blood flow. She enjoyed the sessions, or so she said. I've shocked myself deliberately - the old tongue-on-a-9V battery thing - and it wasn't painful in the least, though it sure tasted weird . I get static shocks all the time from my cat's fur - no pain, no unpleasantness, more like pop-rocks on your skin. Whether a shock is painful or not depends on how much power, and how it's delivered (resistance, etc). In other words, an electrical shock doesn't necessarily feel like a 'shock'. 

On the other hand, sticking any part of you in a live socket is going to hurt. You can kill yourself that way depending on how the current is grounded, resistance, etc! My dad actually burned a hole in a set of heavy-duty wire cutters once, cutting a live wire in my house that the contractor swore had been disconnected. The power of it knocked him a couple of feet backwards and scared the crap out of me - I was standing right there. He was very fortunate that the handles of the cutters were fully encased in rubber so he was otherwise unaffected. Live wires are nothing to mess around with.

As far as using the lowest level, that is the instruction. If people are using a trainer to teach them to use the collar as they are supposed to, then that should be what is happening. Heck, if people follow the instructions that come with the collar then that is what should be happening. No one is saying that everyone does that, though. People are people. On the other hand, the first instinct of someone who's thinking about using an e-collar is usually to try it first on themselves - curiousity is a powerful thing. I wonder if that tendency doesn't rein in some of those who would otherwise be over-enthusiastic about turning up the level?

@lilijaker:
You don't like e-collars and that's fine, but you're comparing a peashooter to a Sherman tank. I can understand why you'd have a violent reaction against e-collars if you think they are ANYTHING like a Tazer.

The collars that are recommended for non-professional use a 3.6V battery. Professional versions use a 7.4V. A Tazer requires at least a 9.8V battery. Honestly, the voltage doesn't even matter that much, the main difference is that Tazers inject their contacts into the skin to reduce the resistance and therefore drastically increase the amperage delivered. They are specifically designed to send rapid powerful pulses to interrupt nerve signals and to deliberately cause extreme pain and paralysis. The point of the device is to stop the target cold, no matter what drugs, etc. he/she might be using. The fact that dogs shocked with an e-collar aren't dropping to the ground convulsing, screaming, and occasionally dying ought to be enough to indicate that they are two very different things.


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## fjm

Fair point, Nicole, but the ecollar is intended to be an aversive, and a sufficient aversive to change the dog's behaviour. Perhaps not quite as bad as thumb in a socket or cutting through a cable (my mother did that once, too!), or a knock out shock from a taser, but certainly intended to stop the dog doing whatever it is doing. I don't think anyone has ever claimed that an ecollar is intended to provide a gentle massage or warm fuzzy feeling. So why does no one ever admit that they are used to hurt dogs? Used, perhaps, in the name of training, or proofing training behaviour, or even to enforce life saving behaviour, but used to inflict pain?

(Although we may have just spotted a gap in the market - a remote, dog focussed, reward dispenser ...)


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## CT Girl

I have the same reservations about the use of the shock collars. I honestly think that although you may stop some behaviors there may be other, unintended, consequences of such training (such as the dogs that learned to hate small dogs). If I were shocked everytime I reached for a cookie or ice cream it may be good for me in many ways but how would this affect my personality and my approach to the world? I also worry that it invites abuse. I think instead of figuring out how to fix a behavior people will just resort to shocking their dog. The fact - that someone on this forum used this type of collar to stop a puppy from crying in their crate bewilders and saddens me. A dog's crate should be a safe place that they enjoy. It is not hard to teach a dog to enjoy their crate - it comes naturally and does not take long. Now this puppy has learned that this is a place of pain if they make a noise. How will their stress now manifest itself? Will they take to cribbing or chewing their paws? I just think there are better ways. I like the idea of a remote reward dispenser. Sign me up for that one.


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## rikkia

I've avoided posting in this thread since my initial post. But I can honestly say nothing I have seen makes me feel any different about Electric shock collars.

Plenty of alternatives exist and have even been discussed here. 

The argument that a dog working in a dangerous situation who can not be relied upon to perform as trained warrants the use of a shock collar has no merit IMO. If the dog can't be trusted to be in the dangerous situation for training, then don't have it in the situation in the first place or have restraint's &/or precaution's such as a (long)lead on hand and fitted to the dog. It's not rocket science just basic common sense. 

I question if this method of training/re-enforcement is seen as socially acceptable in North America?


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## fjm

A remote reward dispensing collar is rather a good idea, isn't it? And one for humans, too - it would murmur in dulcet tones "You don't need chocolate, you don't need wine, I will massage your back and play soft music and ..." - ummm, perhaps we had better not go any further!


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## fjm

Unfortunately I think their use is widespread in the States, rikkia, especially if you include shock collars used with electronic fences and bark collars. And there are a number of proponents in the UK as well, although I think the UK veterinary and animal welfare organisations have been more forthright in condemning them. And Wales, of course, has an outright ban.


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## liljaker

rikkia said:


> I've avoided posting in this thread since my initial post. But I can honestly say nothing I have seen makes me feel any different about Electric shock collars.
> 
> Plenty of alternatives exist and have even been discussed here.
> 
> The argument that a dog working in a dangerous situation who can not be relied upon to perform as trained warrants the use of a shock collar has no merit IMO. If the dog can't be trusted to be in the dangerous situation for training, then don't have it in the situation in the first place or have restraint's &/or precaution's such as a (long)lead on hand and fitted to the dog. It's not rocket science just basic common sense.
> 
> I question if this method of training/re-enforcement is seen as socially acceptable in North America?


Not socially acceptable in my world of poodle/dog owners, but apparently in others? I know if I brought this topic up to any of the poodle owners I socialize with, and those at Fermilab, they'd grab their poodles and run the other way! I guess I'd rather have a happy and loving relationship with my pets and have my poodle behaving in a certain way because they want to please me, rather than being afraid of me, or being hurt or startled or whatever--I mean, isn't that the main reason people get poodles, because of their intellect and versatility? I just don't get it but probably never will, so will move on to happier PF threads!


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## Rowan

rikkia said:


> I've avoided posting in this thread since my initial post. But I can honestly say nothing I have seen makes me feel any different about Electric shock collars.
> 
> Plenty of alternatives exist and have even been discussed here.
> 
> The argument that a dog working in a dangerous situation who can not be relied upon to perform as trained warrants the use of a shock collar has no merit IMO. If the dog can't be trusted to be in the dangerous situation for training, then don't have it in the situation in the first place or have restraint's &/or precaution's such as a (long)lead on hand and fitted to the dog. It's not rocket science just basic common sense.
> 
> *I question if this method of training/re-enforcement is seen as socially acceptable in North America?*


Not in my world, but we are a nation of "instant gratification" after all (unfortunately). And then you have those individuals with what I like to call 'control issues'.

In short, people are more inclined to choose the easy path rather than spend the extra time on reward based training methods, and that's a shame. Personally, I'd rather work _with _my poodle to achieve a goal. 

This thread hasn't changed my mind about shock collars either. I hope it serves to educate other poodle / dog owners who may stumble across certain other posts on this forum. I hope at the very least it makes them think twice.


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## JE-UK

fjm said:


> I don't think anyone has ever claimed that an ecollar is intended to provide a gentle massage or warm fuzzy feeling. So why does no one ever admit that they are used to hurt dogs? Used, perhaps, in the name of training, or proofing training behaviour, or even to enforce life saving behaviour, but used to inflict pain?


That's the bit that makes me a bit ill, as well. Either people who train with shock collars don't want the condemnation of others, or they are truly deluding themselves. Not sure which is worse.

It's a real trend, though. Shock collars provide a 'tap'. Cesar Millan doesn't kick dogs; it's a 'touch'. Companies don't sack people; they are 'downsized'. The military doesn't participate in torture, just in 'enhanced interrogation'.


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## JE-UK

rikkia said:


> The argument that a dog working in a dangerous situation who can not be relied upon to perform as trained warrants the use of a shock collar has no merit IMO.


Why is it we feel we can expect 100% performance all the time from dogs, when we don't even expect it from ourselves? Even a MACHINE fails from time to time, let alone a living being.


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## fjm

JE-UK said:


> It's a real trend, though. Shock collars provide a 'tap'. Cesar Millan doesn't kick dogs; it's a 'touch'. Companies don't sack people; they are 'downsized'. The military doesn't participate in torture, just in 'enhanced interrogation'.


"If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."
I have often found that if you want to get to the root of a matter, cutting out all jargon, euphemism and as many multi syllable words as possible is a good way of doing it. I once ran a Management Seminar that way - very, very revealing!

Vibrating collars come with a range of different levels, to comunicate with the thickest skinned dog without shocking them. So the only reason for buying a shock collar instead is to inflict pain.


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## Rowan

JE-UK said:


> Why is it we feel we can expect 100% performance all the time from dogs, when we don't even expect it from ourselves? Even a MACHINE fails from time to time, let alone a living being.


It makes me wonder what such individuals expect from their children, friends and loved ones too. That's not an environment I'd choose to live in. I'd run as fast as I could!

And this is what I meant about serious "control issues." You can control a piece of machinery or technology (with the exception of my diabolical computer which I'm convinced is possessed), but you shouldn't exert that level of control over a living being, IMHO. If one wants that level of subservient obedience, might I suggest a stuffed animal? 
Amazon.com: Melissa & Doug Standard Poodle Plush: Toys & Games


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> ... I don't think anyone has ever claimed that an ecollar is intended to provide a gentle massage or warm fuzzy feeling. So why does no one ever admit that they are used to hurt dogs? Used, perhaps, in the name of training, or proofing training behaviour, or even to enforce life saving behaviour, but used to inflict pain?
> 
> (Although we may have just spotted a gap in the market - a remote, dog focused, reward dispenser ...)


Not a massage, no, but I've tried an e-collar on myself - yes, on my neck - and it didn't hurt. So how is it inflicting pain if it doesn't hurt? That's why I can understand not wanting to call it a shock. Shock == pain to most people, so should you use the same word if it if it isn't actually painful?

I'm also not entirely sure how people make the leap that the collar *must* be painful in order to work as a training tool. How exactly does that logic work? How do people train just using the tone (collar makes a noise) or pager (collar vibrates) functions that also come on an e-collar? People do - not everyone who buys an e-collar uses the shock function. Surely the tone and/or vibration isn't painful, though I suppose it may be annoying enough to be aversive.

As far as ensuring that a dog will obey in dangerous situations when it _can't_ be on a leash, which does happen with both SAR and K9 work, I will tell you now that if I had to half-kill my dog in order to save its life, I would do it and it wouldn't matter if that meant a painful electrical shock, a painful medical procedure, whatever. We all know that no dog, no matter how well trained, is 100% obedient. That's a pretty good argument for having a training tool on your dog 100% of the time in situations we can't control, which most of us do - a leash. What do you use when you can't use a leash? Prayer? I can certainly understand why SAR and K9 trainers would want to cover as many bases as possible with their dogs and use an e-collar as insurance.


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## stealthq

Just wanted to add - if anyone can develop a remote treat dispenser collar, I'm in. Or, I would be if my dog gave $0.02 about food. Or toys. Or anything except my cats. Sigh.

Anyone have any suggestions for encouraging engagement in a pup that doesn't really seem to care about much of anything? Just thought I'd throw that out there ...


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## fairhavenmagick

I really hesitate to wade into this for many reasons. One of which is because I am pretty new here. But here goes.

There are many people in my 'world' who use ecollars. In the working K9 world it's almost a given on a lot of dogs. I feel that it is much too rampant but I also see some of the benefits of them for these dogs. 

I own an ecollar with a vibration function but no tone (I like the tone ones as well). I have used it on my current SAR dog (not my poodle!) a handful of times for 'leave it' and recalls. I use it depending on our search/training situation for a silent recall with the vibration. She does not always wear it.The stim in my collar goes up to 100 BUT it's the same as a collar with 10 levels- there are just many more tiny tiny steps up you can use. My dog is a pretty soft dog, but she has a thick ruff of hair so she is normally set at a 10 or 15. 
For me I wanted to proof my training, and enforce it during some rough teenage patches. My dog has to be offlead to do her job, in stressful and dangerous situations. I have to know that I can call her off of something and back to me. The most she ever has reacted to the collar is exactly how she has reacted to a flea bite. I have ecollared myself at a rate of 4X higher than I have her and I don't have fur. I am comfortable that I am not causing my dog pain or stress at my levels of use. 
I am going to be using my collar spefically for aversion training, and this is something I probably will do to the poodle when she is older as well. We are going to be doing snake aversion training. In our area two SAR dogs were bitten the same week, one didn't make it. More than likely I will be using an increased level on the collar for this training. I am willing to cause my dog stress and some level of pain to prevent her death. I know not everyone agrees with this and that's okay. My opinion is that my dog risks her life a lot for the benefit of humans. I can't control a lot of those situations but if I can prevent this one I will. 

There can be stress with ecollar training. In many of the training scenarios I have seen with working dogs it's to teach them to work through the stress of the collar. An exterior pressure to test the dogs training (especially in police K9s). I have not used the collar like this myself. The dogs I have seen fully understand how to turn off the collar by completing their command, etc. 

I do think that ecollars can have their place. Just like pinches and chokes, etc. I don't really think anyone should be able to go and pick one up at Petsmart. I feel that way about many training tools including chokes/pinches. There are certain dogs that those should never be used on. There are certain trainers whose hands should never touch them. It all is dependent on the dog, handler, and situation combination. I believe that any trainer should have to be educated and trained in their use before being able to obtain one.

The bottom line for me is correctly using an unpopular tool is nothing compared to preventing my dog's injury or death.


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## fjm

I think the vibration collar is used as a predictor of good stuff, rather like a clicker, and is charged in much the same way. Everything we know about how animals learn tells us that they work to increase the good stuff, and reduce the bad stuff - the bad stuff may be right down at the discomfort level (a frequent medical euphemism for non-excruciating pain), but will still act to discourage the dog from the action(s) associated with it. The tone or pager functions on an ecollar may therefore be used either as a predictor of good stuff - come to me for a treat - or of bad stuff - stop what you are doing or you will get hurt.

As I have asked before, if you are only using the tone or pager functions, why not buy a tone of vibrating collar, why buy one that is also capable of delivering shocks ranging from mild discomfort to agonising?

ETA Thank you for your honesty, fairhavenmagick! You probably already know about the cases of dogs that have actually learned to attack snakes through the use of ecollars, rather than avoid them, but may want to check them out just in case.


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## fairhavenmagick

fmj- Yes! But thank you for bringing it up. We are lucky in that we have access to snakes. Including the venomous snake present in our area. We are going to do a double cage system (to keep all parties, including snakes) safe. We will have a good idea of each dogs behavioral responses. But, I know my dog and I know how she reacts to things. For her inparticular I do not think it will be an issue.


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## stealthq

fjm said:


> As I have asked before, if you are only using the tone or pager functions, why not buy a tone of vibrating collar, why buy one that is also capable of delivering shocks ranging from mild discomfort to agonising?


I'd say the range is more from no sensation at all to mild discomfort, at least with the e-collars I've been exposed to.

But, to answer your question, I suspect that it's an issue of availability. I googled around a bit, because I've honestly never seen or heard of a strictly vibration-only collar. I came across a website that listed recommended vibration collars for deaf dogs. Out of a list of 16 collars, all but 3 also included a shock element - and actually, the relative number of shock + vibration is even higher than that because for some collars they listed an entire line (e.g. the 2400 series). And, one of the three vibration-only collars is listed as discontinued, though they mention you can still sometimes find them used. I'll also mention that the couple of vibration-only models weren't any less expensive than the cheaper shock + vibration collars. Most people won't refuse to buy a collar just because it has a shock element if it doesn't also affect their pocketbook. They'll just buy what's convenient and never use that function. No harm, no foul.


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## fjm

Very interesting Nicole. It must broaden the market, having both functions. I'm glad the collars you use do not deliver a significant shock, by the way!


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## stealthq

Yes, I'd assume so. Probably doesn't cost the manufacturers hardly anything to include all three functions.

BTW, I don't and never have used an e-collar to train.

I occasionally attend some friends' training classes as a spectator where their trainer does use them and trains others in their use and I ask a lot of questions . They let me test out their equipment and obviously I see it in use. Their class is probably around 40% e-collar, 60% marker training, with the owners choosing what method they are comfortable using. I might have considered joining them because I liked what I saw - the dogs all seemed happy and enthusiastic - but they have an expensive up-front fee and I'm not entirely comfortable with that. Plus, it's quite a drive for me against heavy rush-hour traffic.


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## Sookster

This is an interesting thread, and I am refreshed to see that most of the discussion here is positive and open minded, without being heavily judgmental or argumentative. I was reluctant to chime in, but what the heck. 

I do train with e-collars. As a trainer, I apprenticed for a year and a half under a remote collar trainer who taught me everything she knew from nearly 10 years of remote collar training and several years in addition to that of traditional leash/collar training, clicker training, etc. One of the greatest benefits of remote collar training is bomb-proof recall, no matter what situation or distraction is going on around you, and that is where it appeals to _me_. I'm not going into a great discussion of that here, but I did want to try and provide my perspective on some of the questions asked here: 

Like some others who have posted, I use it on low levels of stimulation, the lowest setting at which the dogs exhibits some sort of response to the collar. I actually "charge" the collar on this low setting similar to a clicker. Tap, treat, tap, treat. I personally do NOT use the collar as an aversive, except under very particular circumstances. It's neutral, and solely means "focus on handler" to my dogs (poodle, lab of my own, countless breeds of my clients). 

Why do they come in such high ranges of "stimulation" or "shock" or whatever you prefer to call it? Shoot if I know. I don't use it as an aversive, so I have no need for high levels, but maybe some trainers do. Maybe some dogs do when trained that way. I honestly have no idea. The collar that I own and use on my own dogs has 8 dial settings, each with a high and a low options, so technically 16 levels. Nova's typical "working" level (off leash around distractions) is around a 3, maybe 3 high. Juniper (lab) is a 1 or 2 tops. 

I've successfully rehabilitated several "aggressive" dogs through the use of an e-collar. Because of it's ability to get and maintain focus around distractions, I have seen an e-collar prove to be invaluable at modifying behavior and changing behavioral patterns of "aggressive" dogs toward either other dogs or people. Again, I am not using it as an aversive and understand that a lot of people who use e-collars DO use them that way. 

How I'm using it: a single tap of the button, delivering a mild electrical stimulation (shock) at the lowest level of perceived response _given simultaneously with each command_. No holding of the button until the dog complies. No giving a command and then "shocking" them when they don't. In this way, as someone previously mentioned, the dog can get to a point where they can be weaned off the remote. My lab rarely ever wears the e-collar, and when he does it is more as a safety measure, to give me peace of mind in off-leash settings. He can be a dog and run and be off-leash, and I don't have to worry that he may in fact decide that chasing that squirrel is more interesting than me. Nova never wears hers at home, but still always wears it in off-leash settings. I've had her for 9 months. It isn't magic and doesn't happen overnight, like any training. It takes time, lots of reward, and consistency to get good results. I may add that since Nova only wears it when we go out, anytime she hears me turn it on (it beeps a few times) she comes running, tail wagging, because she associates wearing the collar with going on an outing, like many dogs do with a leash. 

Can they be misused? Absolutely. So can most training aids in any aspect of animal training. Can they be effective and humane when used correctly? Again, absolutely. There is no reason that a correctly used e-collar should cause nervousness, fear, anxiety, pain, or aggressive behaviors in a dog. The opposite happens in my experience. Are there other ways to train? By all means yes. Not every method is right for every dog. Using an e-collar has proved to me to be one of the most effective ways to do recall and off-leash training, which is what I do.

I have felt every level of stimulation that the collar I use has, and again as previously mentioned, the sensation ranges from no sensation at all (level 1 low, I cannot feel even if I try my darndest) to mildly uncomfortable (level 8, high). Now, I agree that it should be more regulated. I don't like that just anyone can go buy one off the shelf. I have had to recondition countless dogs whose owner purchased e-collars hoping for a "quick fix" to some behavior and used it inappropriately, generally making the problem worse and at minimum getting no results at all. I would caution anyone against using an e-collar without proper training and education about it's use. Improper use also leads to a dog that is only reliable when wearing the collar, which isn't desirable for obvious reasons. I also require that all of my clients feel the collar before putting it on their own dog because I do want them to be completely comfortable with using it, and be aware that it can be uncomfortable at high levels. But used correctly, they are a training aide just like any other and can have very good results. 

Why not just use a vibrating collar? Availability. And if you are adjusting the vibration up or down as needed, it really is extremely similar to the e-collar and could in fact still be used as an aversion. My collar has a vibrating feature, which I actually find similar to a moderate level on the remote. I think the lower levels on the e-collar are more comfortable than the vibrating feature, which also causes this awfully disturbing "buzzing" sound that I can't imagine having occurring right next to my ear all the time. Nails on a chalkboard to me, but that's probably a personal dislike for "buzzing" sounds and may or may not be relevant to what the dog actually feels. 

Anyway that is my take on the matter. I will continue to follow this thread, can't guarantee that I will post again, because I don't really know what more I can say about it. I agree with both sides of the argument, that it can be used as a completely unnecessary form of inflicting pain and discomfort, but it can also be used as a humane, reliable, and efficient way of teaching recall and off-leash reliability.


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## BorderKelpie

Excellent post, Sookster. Thank you.

The only adversive I am aware of is rattlesnake training. I know of a few folks who have used the ecollar to cause a complete aversion to snakes in areas with large numbers of venomous snakes. I have seen it done on video, their is a snake placed out in the open, the dog is wearing the collar and every time the dog looks at or approches the snake, it's zapped pretty hard. 

After seeing several snake bit dogs, humans and even a horse (poor thing, right on her nose, she ended up with an ET tube to breathe for a while), I think in that case, I would not hesitate to do that as well. Thank everything I can that I don't have a large venomous snake population at home, but there are some in the park where I like to take the dogs to swim and play.

My dogs pretty much ignore snakes, though, thanks to my boas.


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## Arcticfox

BorderKelpie said:


> The only adversive I am aware of is rattlesnake training. I know of a few folks who have used the ecollar to cause a complete aversion to snakes in areas with large numbers of venomous snakes. I have seen it done on video, their is a snake placed out in the open, the dog is wearing the collar and every time the dog looks at or approches the snake, it's zapped pretty hard.


There's a pretty interesting discussion about snake aversion training going on at /r/dogtraining on reddit, there was a video of it posted. This is the first time I've seen this done and it seems like a rather big risk. That poor dog in the video looks terrified, and kept getting shocked even when it was trying very hard to avoid that snake. Hopefully there are better, more experienced trainers out there than this, if I ever want my pood snake aversion trained. I don't really know what the rattlesnake population is like in my area, so one more thing to look into. If it's a big problem, I would prefer the shock collar over a snake bite, but definitely not with that guy in the video :afraid:


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## fjm

Thanks for a thoughtful and helpful contribution, Sookster. I, too, wonder more and more why collars come with higher levels of shock, when it is clear that the consensus for using them in general training is as a predictor of good stuff, rather than to inflict pain. I walk a dog that is much in need of a pager device - she stops, stares into the distance waiting for a rabbit to come into view, and is so focussed that she does not see or hear anything else. But I would want a device that came with total safety precautions - nothing electrical in contact with the dog's skin ever, completely waterproof, etc, etc. Perhaps an air puff collar might be the answer - has anyone ever used one?


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## BorderKelpie

ArticFox, that is so NOT what I was talking about. I hope that wasn't his dog - looks like he ruined whatever relationship he ever had with her. That was a brutal and serious misuse of an ecollar. 

What I was reffering to was, I'm sure, uncomfortable for the dog, but there are rewards for avoiding the snake and no shocks just for being in the general vicinity of it, only for approaching it or trying to engage with it. What this video was showing was IMO a complete lack of understanding of adversive training by the handler and a total lack of understanding by the poor dog subjected to it. THe best I could figure is the dog thought she was being shocked for being to near the handler. 

Poor dog.


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## PoodlePowerBC

*My 15 cents*

As you all know, I am a fan of the "e-Collar" and I like to think I use it properly. I started to use an e-collar (That one was a tone & shock) because of safety. We are on the trail a LOT, and allowed my original Spoo Roscoe to be off leash . Roscoe had a very good recall till "The Incident" We were walking along the lake, and I guess he found a duck's nest, most likely full of chicks. Mama being concerned, took off across the water with a "broken wing", barely keeping out of Roscoe's reach. By the time we noticed this, all the calling in the world didn't help. Roscoe was about 14 months old, and had never swam before, I was frantic!!! Our lake is pretty wide, and he and mama made it 3/4 of the way across before she decided she'd distracted him enough to fly (amazingly her wing was fine) back towards us. By the time he swam close enough to throw rocks to him and break his attention to Mama Duck, he was EXHAUSTED!!! And I was crying and I'm not a "cryer"! He did the same thing about 2 months later on a river walk, and this time a gentleman walking by recommended the e-collar. My vet did as well. I researched, I ordered one and booked lessons with a local trainer. Roscoe NEVER needed more than the tone! He lived to just under 6 years old, had excellent recall, and only needed to wear the collar occasionally,if we were hiking and deer or other Prey were about. Again, in the nearly 4 1/2 years of wearing the collar, I never needed to use the shock button. And I'm sure I saved the lives of a ton of Bunnies and squirrels, as well as keeping my dog from becoming hopelessly lost in the woods.

After Roscoe passed on, I decided to use the e-collar on Russell at 10 months. A friend gave me a Dogtra vibration collar they were not using. I used it on Russell from 10 months to about 12 months. Since the end of November, it's been in the dog bag  The other day I put it on him, because he's been making a lot more noise in play at the dog park, and I wanted to curb this. Constantly calling him and saying "play quiet" wasn't working. The page button just works for me. I have never used the shock button on Russell either. I only use the collar to break a habit I am having a hard time doing without it. If this makes me lazy in some eyes, well so be it. It's not hurting you or my dog. I do believe it can save a life in certain situations. 

I have had people ask me about the collar, the only advise I give them is to research it and definitely take lessons if you are going to buy one. I personally will not recommend the collar to ANYONE, because I believe a lot of people are looking for an easy way out and will not do the research to properly use them. And I wholeheartedly do not believe these should EVER be used for an aggressive dog ... not EVER!!!! Haters can say what they want about the collar, but when I do bring the collar out Russell goes crazy!!(Even if it's just to charge it) He knows this means a fun time is going to be in his future. There is no hesitation about me putting it on, he positively vibrates with anticipation of "Good Things Ahead":act-up:


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## fjm

PoodlePowerBC - again, you use the collar as a "paging" device, rather than to deliver a painful shock. No one has yet said they have ever used a higher level of shock - or would ever use one, except in the very specific context of snake aversion training, and it sounds as if that is something where it would be wise to involve a very experienced, very careful trainer, who would no doubt have their own equipment. I think we should all club together to start a company to market shock free Dog Pagers - it seems that is what everyone really needs.


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## PoodlePowerBC

fjm said:


> PoodlePowerBC - again, you use the collar as a "paging" device, rather than to deliver a painful shock. No one has yet said they have ever used a higher level of shock - or would ever use one, except in the very specific context of snake aversion training, and it sounds as if that is something where it would be wise to involve a very experienced, very careful trainer, who would no doubt have their own equipment. I think we should all club together to start a company to market shock free Dog Pagers - it seems that is what everyone really needs.


I have Poodles. Poodles are very smart and usually quite soft. I don't know if I could use the collar the same way if I had Labradoodles . So I can't agree with you here. I have seen some dogs that are not even close to trained by 5 years, never mind 1 year.I do believe a mild shock could be beneficial in some cases, just not mine


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## Searcher

I am finding this discussion interesting. We aren't prepared to go this route at this point. However, if we need to reconsider this down the line it would be good to know our options. 
I noticed on Gun Dog Supply they list a number of vibration collars which are somewhat pricey. Are they really just vibration? 
Also, it seems like the devices on the collar are pretty heavy. I've looked at multiple ones out of curiosity & they feel too heavy to be on the neck of a 40 lb dog.


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## fjm

It might be worth looking at collars designed for deaf dogs, Searcher - I know people with small to medium sized deaf dogs who have mentioned using vibrating or air puff collars.


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## tortoise

I have a collar with vibration feature. I had a dog that I would conside "c-collar trained" (versus my normal is a dog I trained and used an ecollar for 3 weeks because of [blank.]) She was proficient and it was rarely used. She felt safe and happy in the collar. Well... one day I hit the vibrate button isntead of nick. Ooops! She was paniced! 

I tried on a couple other dog over the years since then. Overreaction and fear to the vibrate. Nothing on the shock.

Don't assume that vibrate, which sounds better to you, will be better-accepted by your dog! The shock is so delicately tuneable, you can find level that the shock is less distressing than your upset/frustrated/angry voice is.


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## Sookster

tortoise said:


> I have a collar with vibration feature. I had a dog that I would conside "c-collar trained" (versus my normal is a dog I trained and used an ecollar for 3 weeks because of [blank.]) She was proficient and it was rarely used. She felt safe and happy in the collar. Well... one day I hit the vibrate button isntead of nick. Ooops! She was paniced!
> 
> I tried on a couple other dog over the years since then. Overreaction and fear to the vibrate. Nothing on the shock.
> 
> Don't assume that vibrate, which sounds better to you, will be better-accepted by your dog! The shock is so delicately tuneable, you can find level that the shock is less distressing than your upset/frustrated/angry voice is.


This is exactly how I feel about the vibrating option on the collar I have! Honestly the sound of it nearly drives me up walls, as I mentioned earlier. I have never used a solely vibration collar and have no idea how "adjustable" one would be. The "pager" (vibration) feature on my collar is a pretty intense vibration. Anyone here have any input to offer on this?


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## Fluffyspoos

Interesting! I wanted to get an ecollar for field work to use the vibration feature on it, this is definitely a new input on it.


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## fjm

I know people with deaf dogs who prefer the air puff - but again, it depends on the vigour of the puff! If the collar vibration on a collar is anything like a mobile phone I once had, I can understand dogs being overly startled by it - all of us in the office had the same make, and we used to set them to vibrate and race them across table tops!


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## Rowan

fjm said:


> I know people with deaf dogs who prefer the air puff - but again, it depends on the vigour of the puff! If the collar vibration on a collar is anything like a mobile phone I once had, I can understand dogs being overly startled by it - *all of us in the office had the same make, and we used to set them to vibrate and race them across table tops*!


BF mine.

:lol: :laugh:


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## BorderKelpie

fjm, you're hilarious!
I'm going to charge my daughter's phone and race it against mine!!


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## Chagall's mom

Just sharing a video of a deaf dog being acclimated to a vibration collar.


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## Sookster

Chagall's mom said:


> Just sharing a video of a deaf dog being acclimated to a vibration collar.
> 
> Training a Deaf Dog to Use a Vibrating Collar - YouTube


This appears to be the same model of Dogtra collar that I have, that has a vibration feature in addition to electrical stimulation. Unfortunately on this collar the level of the vibration isn't adjustable. I actually use the electrical stimulation and condition to it in much the same manner. It's used to get a dogs attention, in the same way the vibration is here.


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## Chagall's mom

Sookster said:


> This appears to be the same model of Dogtra collar that I have, that has a vibration feature in addition to electrical stimulation. Unfortunately on this collar the level of the vibration isn't adjustable. I actually use the electrical stimulation and condition to it in much the same manner. It's used to get a dogs attention, in the same way the vibration is here.


I was interested to see the dog's reaction to the vibration. To me, it didn't appear to be too unsettling, and it did get her attention.


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## BorderKelpie

That is basically how I acclimated my deafie to the vibration collar. Just for fun, I did the same thing to my highly dog reactive Border Collie X Kelpie (he can hear). Now, if he starts getting wound up about a loose dog, I can distract him with the vibration since the louder he got (barks, spins and bites the fence when he sees a loose dog) the louder and more animated I would get trying to get his attention which really amped him up more. He would get so upset, he'd get diarrhea. Now, with the vibration since it's so subtle and means yummy treats (usually duck or venison jerky bits), he will look to me instead of reacting. 

Just heaven forbid I don't get the collar on him when the neighbors all decide to let their dogs potty in my front yard. *sigh* (I know a GREAT use for a high powered shock, every time someone's dog mistakes my yard for his toliet, the owner should get tazered.  I bet that would stop it all. I wish..............


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## Chagall's mom

BorderKelpie said:


> That is basically how I acclimated my deafie to the vibration collar. Just for fun, I did the same thing to my highly dog, reactive Border Collie X Kelpie (he can hear). Now, if he starts getting wound up about a loose dog, I can distract him with the vibration since the louder he got (barks, spins and bites the fence when he sees a loose dog) the louder and more animated I would get trying to get his attention which really amped him up more. He would get so upset, he'd get diarrhea. Now, with the vibration since it's so subtle and means yummy treats (usually duck or venison jerky bits), he will look to me instead of reacting.
> 
> Just heaven forbid I don't get the collar on him when the neighbors all decide to let their dogs potty in my front yard. *sigh* *(I know a GREAT use for a high powered shock, every time someone's dog mistakes my yard for his toliet, the owner should get tazered.  I bet that would stop it all. I wish.*.............


Sounds like your neighbors need to be sent to the "naughty mat"!:nod:Good to hear the subtle vibration collar is an option that works for your deaf dog, and your hearing Border Collie X Kelpie. People on our road use it successfully too with their deaf white Boxer. Now as to barking Border Collies...we call that sound "background music" around here!:biggrin: We live next to a large sheep farm and the flock is worked by some _brilliant_ Border Collies. When they're penned into the barn "off duty," they bark incessantly, maybe at the rats or whatever. Such an amazing breed, I adore them! I love watching them in action, but I'm grateful the woods between our properties muffles their barking a bit.:smile:


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## outwest

There is a guy who uses a shock collar at the dog park. His dog is a muscular, bully breed who loves people, but is untrustworthy with other dogs. The owner has a leg disability, so is unable to do a lot of walking. He comes to play ball with the dog. He says he lives in an apartment and the dog park is the only place his dog can run and get exercise. I asked him about the collar one day. He contended he could safely allow his dog off leash around other dogs with it on. He also carried a muzzle, but the dog didn't always wear it (couldn't catch the ball obviously). He'd put it on after they played ball for a while. In a perfect world this dog would never go to the park, but I understood why he went to the lengths he did. His dog still made me nervous. I used to leave the park when he arrived (didn't trust that collar). 

I could see myself using a vibration collar to get attention when far away or they were distracted. It seems those would be handy and not painful, although I doubt I would ever use one. Is there a collar that is vibration only, no shock?


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## Searcher

I haven't seen anyone respond to the weight of the collars. They seem rather heavy.


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## tortoise

Searcher said:


> I haven't seen anyone respond to the weight of the collars. They seem rather heavy.


I guess that is relative.  They are similar to having a big D battery taped to the collar. Some brands (Dogtra) run a little bit heavier.

I haven't had a problem with it being too heavy for a dog. :shrug:


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## Sookster

Searcher said:


> I haven't seen anyone respond to the weight of the collars. They seem rather heavy.


My large dogs have no problem with them being too heavy. I have a Sportdog model that I have seen used on dogs as small as yorkies and chihuahuas, but it does look rather bulky on them. 

Dogtra makes a collar called the Dogtra iQ that is made specifically for small dogs. It's about half the size of the regular sized collars, and I have several small-dog clients that use these and don't seem to have any problems with the size or weight of them. They have a "pager" (vibrate) option in addition to a "nick" and "continuous" stimulation option with 100 levels of adjustment. 

Dogtra iQ


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## fjm

What is the purpose of the continuous shock? Especially with 100 levels?


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## Countryboy

According to the Lou Castle theory of training, brought up earlier in a post by Stealthq, u would use continuous stimulation at the lowest level discernible.

I believe this method works best to train 'new' behaviours.


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## liljaker

Personally, since I would never advocate using it on a pet (sorry guys), I could think of some great uses on some former boyfriends....one in particular who had a problem with his neck whenever any female walked by!!! I like the visual!!!


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## tortoise

Countryboy said:


> According to the Lou Castle theory of training, brought up earlier in a post by Stealthq, u would use continuous stimulation at the lowest level discernible.
> 
> I believe this method works best to train 'new' behaviours.


It doesn't matter the level of stimulation. It is escape training. "I will hurt you until you comply". It can be done well. But this is way to easy to screw up and the consquences are way too high.


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## Countryboy

tortoise said:


> But this is way to easy to screw up and the consequences are way too high.


Honestly??? This is one reason why I've not gone to an e-leash . . yet. I didn't know 'til the earlier post that there was another method. But I live close enuf to Toronto that I could easily find a training course on either method if I go that route.

Even with a willing trainee, Deb . . . that's a tough instinct to get rid of in guys. Sometimes, no matter what the reward, we just _cannot_ resist barking at strangers!


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## Leooonie

I prefer spray collars.... as a last resort. I am definately lacking of life experience however, so maybe I can be convinced otherwise but itd have to be pretty convincing evidence!!!!!!!


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## Sookster

fjm said:


> What is the purpose of the continuous shock? Especially with 100 levels?


I would assume that it is used as previously described, you would hold the button down until the dog responds. However, I don't use it in this manner and can't really attest to proper training protocols for using it. I use the "nick" option, or either "tap" the continuous button (so that the stimulation is only given instantaneously and momentarily) at the same time as giving a command, so I have no use for the "continuous" feature of it. 

And with the levels, it is finely adjustable, to get exactly the level your dog needs and nothing higher. I don't personally feel this remote until around level 19-20, have had people that didn't feel it until level 40. It has nearly the same range as the 8-level sportdog collar that I mentioned earlier, just broken down into smaller increments (it does go slightly lower and slightly higher, but not a lot).


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## tortoise

The continuous button is used for escape training. I have serious issue with escape training. Not the continous button.

The continuous stimulation feels more intense then the nick stimulation at the same level.

It works great for me. I use a very low setting. If my dog blows me of I can use continuous for a moment, for stronger stimulation. But I'm not changing the # on the remote. It's really easy to turn it up for a challenging situation and forget to trun it back down!


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## fjm

So you are using it as a punishment, Tortoise? How does that gel with the mild "nick" shock as an attention getter? Most people are saying they use the collar as an attention getter - in much the same way as a whistle, or a tap on the shoulder - so a continuous burst, felt more intensely, is a very different approach.


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## ROHAN-K9mm

stealthq said:


> Not to mention the level of distraction and/or drive ...where he's out of reach. Tends to make him mind his manners more.
> 
> Oh, and before anyone jumps down my throat, I've never used an e-collar myself. I prefer marker training. But, having been around the training and having tested the collars myself, I see nothing wrong with it so long as it's used CORRECTLY.


 There are issues with the size of the dog, the strength of will, and the thickness and type of coat, and the purpose for using the collar. 25 years ago I lived on a farm in the country and raised sheep and horses. There were maybe 5 cars an hour on my dirt road. I had sheep fence for the sheep, and electric fence for the horses . The dogs ran free, and kept the neighbors dogs from the sheep. The dogs (standard poodles) helped me with the sheep . Not through herding, but by sitting or standing where I didn't want the sheep to go - kind of a portable fence when I was moving them. When the oldest dog died I got a puppy, and thinking that there would be more traffic and maybe even a leash law in her life time I got invisablr fence for her, and trained her to it. 
It let her run free and


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## ROHAN-K9mm

And she was very respectful and it did keep keep out of the road. Back then kohler was the authority on obedience and training too. I took classes from wonderful trainers who used his methods. I remember one class with 5 women who had their "husbands dog" all year or more GSD's who were dog and people aggressive the husband never got around to working with the dog, and this was his last chance before being put down. My calves used to itch and twitch as I walked around the arena ahead of some of them. They all worked off lead prior to graduation. Today it would be pit bulls. Attitudes change, and so do methods. I am a crossover trainer , and I love it, but I can't condemn people who use electronics for a reason, and working Search and rescue , or with hunting dogs seen to be areas where contact is is at a great distance. It is no excuse for harsh or sloppy training. If you use it like a tv remote while sitting on the couch you will get the results you deserve . The real cruelty is not bothering to train a dog, and banishing him to the yard or huMane society because he is "impossible to live with " There are many roads to the behavior you want, some more to my liking than others, but a trained dog has a better life than one who is spoiled by "love " with no boundaries . I can afford a big fenced yard now, but one of my girls used to climb the 6 foot fence , so I put the raido fence inside it and she wore a collar . She was safe and she used to run laps just inside the area of activation. The other one said ok there is a fence. I have to stay in .


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## fjm

Welcome to the discussion, Rohan. Interesting that you mention Kohler - very much the methods around when I was young. I have to say it was with huge relief that my dog and I found an alternative when I got back into the world of dog training some years ago - the first class we tried was run very much along those lines, and was a very stressful experience for both of us (and many other people I talked with!). 

I am not sure I go along with the idea that there is an either/or between those sort of methods and no training at all - or even that they are better than nothing. Too many dogs have ended up in rescue with serious behaviour problems after being badly "trained" with confrontational methods. There were recent cases in the UK of dogs being PTS after biting people as a result of their owners attempting to imitate the unfortunate methods demonstrated on primetime television by a young and ill-advised trainer.

I was interested by your use of an e-fence with a physical fence - that would certainly prevent some of the problems, like dogs or children wandering in from outside.


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## tortoise

fjm said:


> So you are using it as a punishment, Tortoise? How does that gel with the mild "nick" shock as an attention getter? Most people are saying they use the collar as an attention getter - in much the same way as a whistle, or a tap on the shoulder - so a continuous burst, felt more intensely, is a very different approach.


I could get very complicate, but I think the simplest way to say is to relate to a child. 

Example: Toddler wandering away. You touch them on the shoulder to get their attention. consider that a nick. Child bolting away after something that grabs their attention would warrant a firm grip on the shoulder or arm. consider that continuous.

There are couple of ways to use ecollars. I actually don't use the method that I think is best and most correct. If I am telling someone else how to use an ecollar, I will have very different instructions. I use mine only if nothing else works. I use it only for the problem behavior and nothing else. I don't condition my dogs to the collar. My dogs are quickly collar wise, but because I will extinguish the behavior, it doesn't matter. I want them OFF the ecollar asap. I don't want to condition them to is and use it as a positive, long term training tool. I think I have to come to use it this way because I was already so skilled with other methods that the only value an ecollar had was for the really troubling behaviors.

You can %&$* up a dog FAST if you do it my way wrong. There are better ways and they are being discussed already on this thread. That's why I'm kinda staying out of this thread. I don't have much to offer except to explain escape training and how harmful it can be!


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## DivinityPoodles

I am having visions of people frothing at the mouth & tearing their hair out over this topic. I wish I could add 'lol' to the end of that sentence.

An ecollar is simply a training tool that can be misused the same as ANY tool. I have seen and dealt with dogs that have been mistreated by something but it wasn't an ecollar. I have trained with and without an ecollar and have to say that it is entirely dependant on the dog, situation and trainer. No it is not for everyone or every dog but to say that there is no use for them is very biased (and that is the most pc word I can think of sorry).


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## Nova

I'm afraid I'm one of those who'd foam at the mouth if I saw someone using a shock-collar, and I do if I see it. I don't mean to step on any toes, but if someone is resorting to a shock-collar I would bet it's a failure on the part of the trainer, not on the dog's ability to obey. 

What particular problems are bringing about the use of such a device? Maybe I can offer an alternative method.


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## fjm

I think my issue with the shock collar is that it is practically DESIGNED to be misused, with levels way above what would be needed for alerting a dog, plus the continuous option. It is certainly designed to be used to punish. I would have less anxiety if their sale was limited to people who could prove their experience and credentials in dog training, but without recognised certification of dog trainers that is not possible. And - in the UK at least - those are the people least likely to use an e-collar. While they are on sale to anyone with the money or a credit card, and instruction is limited to a leaflet that most people probably use like any other instruction booklet and only read when they have a problem, I will take a lot more convincing that it is a desirable device. On the whole, I think dog training needs fewer "quick fix" tools, and more time and commitment from dog owners.


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## Rowan

fjm said:


> I think my issue with the shock collar is that it is practically DESIGNED to be misused, with levels way above what would be needed for alerting a dog, plus the continuous option. *It is certainly designed to be used to punish. I would have less anxiety if their sale was limited to people who could prove their experience and credentials in dog training, but without recognised certification of dog trainers that is not possible.* And - in the UK at least - those are the people least likely to use an e-collar. While they are on sale to anyone with the money or a credit card, and instruction is limited to a leaflet that most people probably use like any other instruction booklet and only read when they have a problem, I will take a lot more convincing that it is a desirable device. On the whole, I think dog training needs fewer "quick fix" tools, and more time and commitment from dog owners.


This would be a great topic for a separate thread and something I've been pondering lately. Is there a 'certifying agency' for dog trainers? Is there a standard (certification) that must be met and maintained by dog trainers or can anyone claim the title?


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## fjm

Good idea, Rowan - there is a body getting under way in the UK addressing just those issues. I'll dig out the info and start a thread about it when I get back from the Residents AGM (I'm Secretary, so can't really skip it!).


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## Leooonie

Rowan said:


> Is there a standard (certification) that must be met and maintained by dog trainers or can anyone claim the title?


there are various 'pet dog trainer' societies. but I would only go with
APDT (association for pet dog trainers)
and CCAB, ASAB, and the APBC explained | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

these are the only two I can think of right now that really do count as something.


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## liljaker

Interesting note about the collar being banned...BBC News - Ogmore illegal shock collar dog owner gets £2,000 fine


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## fjm

They are only banned in Wales at the moment, though there are moves through the rest of the UK. The differences between legislation in England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland are getting greater all the time, and England - with a government mainly made up of millionaire career politicians - is not exactly in the forefront when it comes to protecting the less capable or less fortunate, whether human or canine!


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