# Breeder search - health testing expectations



## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Hi all - looking for feedback here...In my beginning research for a standard breeder in northern california, this is the process that I am using. I will look at the breeders website or facebook page to try and identify the poodles that they have selected for their breeding program. Then, I will go to the OFA website and search the sire and dam to see the health testing for each.

In many cases, I find that at least one of the dogs selected for a breeding will have limited testing displayed on OFA. For example, just “Hips” and “Cardiac”, or just “Hips”. From what I have read, the minimal testing for ethical breeding includes 1)Yearly CERF for dogs being bred 2) Hip dysplasia, 3) sebaceous adenitis, 4) Cardiac, 5)Thyroid? 

Just for fun, I searched “Arreau” on the OFA website as a comparison, and her dogs have everything tested. Why oh why cant I live near her, or a breeder like her? 

I am surprised that so many of the breeding dogs from I have researched appear to be lacking full testing. Am I supposed to look somewhere besides OFA? Or are my expectations too high?


----------



## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Axeldog I wouldn't necessarily think that the testing hasn't been done if it doesn't show on OFA. I forget which but for one of Javelin's parents I didn't see complete results there, but when I asked his breeder she had all of the results. I think that Arreau having all that information there is in indicator of her being very very organized.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The two absolute minimum things I would want to see posted on the OFA site would be one normal sebaceous adenitis test result and a normal OFA hip score and at least one normal OFA eye exam. It does not concern me to see less than one eye test. It is a bonus to see thyroid or cardiac.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Some of the best info about testing is on the poodlesdegrenier web site. Natalie Tessier (the author/breeder) points out what the tests tell you and what they don't tell you. I think that while testing should be done, it offers less confidence than many people think. 

See the following (and other links in the health section of this web site).

What do the tests really mean? - Poodles de Grenier

DNA tests & what they tell us - Poodles de Grenier

Phenotypical tests and what they say - Poodles de Grenier

Conclusions about testing - Poodles de Grenier

By the way, Natalie Tessier is one of the authors of the recent study that was published on Addisons and Subacious Adenitis.

On the offa.org site, I tend to look to see if the dog has a CHIC number. That indicates that the testing that OFA thinks is necessary for the breed has been completed. However (as has been mentioned) some breeders may have the tests done and not record them on the OFA site. (The AKC champion that I bred Cammie to is an example. His eye exam was done and clear, but never sent in.)


----------



## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Lily cd re, that is such helpful feedback about the testing results posting status on OFA. (I have a sense that Cherie at Arreau is a highly organized person!) I had already written off some breeders just because things were not listed, and I see now that this could be a mistake, and it takes further effort and talking to the breeder to find out the real story (backed up by evidence ultimately, of course) 


Peppersb - Oh my! I read through the information in the links you provided, and it is interesting, but also stresses me out, as I want there to be cut and dried answers, sigh. Alas, that is not the case. I do appreciate it though and it is good to have this additional detail. From what both you and Lily have said, it is clear also that I cannot rely on the website to have the complete information. 


CharismaticMillie – I appreciate your feedback on your absolute minimum requirements. That can come in very handy if I find a breeder/pup that seems to be “the one” from all indicators, except the testing is minimum/not extensive. 

Thanks for your replies, I am so appreciative of your help.


----------



## sidewinder (Feb 3, 2016)

The OFA charges (I think) about a hundred bucks for each test that you register with them. I don't know exactly because I have never done it. If you have more than one or two breeding animals, and you've paid over that hundred each test you do (I know that when I did vWD genetic testing for the Scotties, each one was $160), it could be a real extra burden to file them on OFA as well. As long as the breeder can provide you with copies of the genetic tests that they have done, it's OK. Having a chic number, and all the tests listed on OFA is nice, but not necessary to the health of the dog. It does give everybody who's interested access to that info without asking the dog owner, though.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

sidewinder said:


> The OFA charges (I think) about a hundred bucks for each test that you register with them. I don't know exactly because I have never done it. If you have more than one or two breeding animals, and you've paid over that hundred each test you do (I know that when I did vWD genetic testing for the Scotties, each one was $160), it could be a real extra burden to file them on OFA as well. As long as the breeder can provide you with copies of the genetic tests that they have done, it's OK. Having a chic number, and all the tests listed on OFA is nice, but not necessary to the health of the dog. It does give everybody who's interested access to that info without asking the dog owner, though.


OFA does not actually do the tests themselves. For most of the tests, you pay your vet or a specialist to do the test and then you pay OFA a small fee (e.g., $15) to record the results of the test. For hips, the OFA fee is $35 because OFA actually evaluates the Xray. You also pay your vet to do the Xray and to submit it directly to OFA. The OFA applications, with info about fees and requirements, are on the OFA web site if you are interested in seeing how each test is handled.

I think it is worth paying OFA the extra fees just so that you have a public record of your dog's health testing. But it is certainly true that some breeders do have the tests done, but do not record them with OFA.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Axeldog said:


> Peppersb - Oh my! I read through the information in the links you provided, and it is interesting, but also stresses me out, as I want there to be cut and dried answers, sigh. Alas, that is not the case. I do appreciate it though and it is good to have this additional detail. From what both you and Lily have said, it is clear also that I cannot rely on the website to have the complete information.


Unfortunately, when you buy a puppy, you are buying a dog that might get sick at some point. There will always be a risk. I think your odds of having a healthy dog are a bit better if you buy from a breeder who does health testing. It is a bit unsettling that there really is no test for the most serious poodle diseases -- bloat, epilepsy, Addison's and subaceous adenitis (there are tests for the latter 2 but as explained by Natalie, they only test the status of the parent dog at the moment of the test and give no info about the underlying genetics). 

Other things you can do to maximize your chances of a getting a healthy dog:
-- Buy from a breeder who knows the lines she (or he) is breeding from and takes seriously the need to select healthy dogs.
-- Avoid puppies that are inbred. There is evidence that standard poodles with low COIs (i.e., puppies that are not inbred) live longer than those with high COIs.
-- Try to understand what is motivating the breeder. Avoid puppy mills (of course). Also avoid breeders that are producing/selling puppies to make money. There are just too many ways that people can cut corners (e.g. breeding whatever dogs are available even if they are not healthy, or have poor structure or poor temperaments). Try to find a breeder who is genuinely interested in bettering the breed and producing fabulous puppies.
-- Look into the momma dog's eyes. A content, secure, happy momma who is getting good support from her humans will do a better job of giving your puppy a good start in life than a momma who is stressed. It makes a difference.

Best of luck to you!


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Thank you for your kind words. Distance does not need to be an issue. However, I make it abundantly clear to everyone who call me with interest in an Arreau puppy, the amount of testing we do helps me sleeps at night and stacks the deck in favour of a healthy puppy. BUT it does not guarantee that when we choose to put two dogs together, that that combination will not see a problem arise. We pray we never receive one of those emails or phone calls, but as careful as we are, we are realistic. There is not a line of Standards alive today that has no illness behind it. All any breeder can do it their best.

I never used to think it was important to post test results on OFA and thought I could save money not doing so. Then I began searching for stud dogs or parents of puppies I was interested in and realized if all the results were in one place, it made things so much easier. And while the costs are annoying, they are not high. Most tests are $15, and if it is a test (like eyes) that is to be repeated, you only pay for the first test to be posted out of however many you have done and send in. But, if a breeder can email you copies of OFA certs or results, that is good.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

sidewinder said:


> The OFA charges (I think) about a hundred bucks for each test that you register with them. I don't know exactly because I have never done it. If you have more than one or two breeding animals, and you've paid over that hundred each test you do (I know that when I did vWD genetic testing for the Scotties, each one was $160), it could be a real extra burden to file them on OFA as well. As long as the breeder can provide you with copies of the genetic tests that they have done, it's OK. Having a chic number, and all the tests listed on OFA is nice, but not necessary to the health of the dog. It does give everybody who's interested access to that info without asking the dog owner, though.


OFA charges $15 to register test results. $35 for hip results.

The vWD test itself costs $65. Plus the $15 to submit it to OFA.


----------

