# "Gentle Nanny Dog" Kills another Child



## Tiny Poodles

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pit-bull-kills-9-year-old-girl-long-island-article-1.2427746


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## Mfmst

What a tragedy! They are loaded guns and every owner should own a break stick and know how to use it.


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## Tiny Poodles

Mfmst said:


> What a tragedy! They are loaded guns and every owner should own a break stick and know how to use it.



These kind of incidents really make me believe in BSL - I just think that 95 percent of Pit owners don't have a clue how to safely handle these dogs, and since many of those skills are unique to this breed, I really do believe that banning them would serve the greater good.


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## Coldbrew

What a terrible tragedy.
That poor family; I cannot imagine what they are going through.


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## patk

i don't like pitbulls. but look at the picture accompanying the article. another a$$hat owner encouraging the dog's native aggression. i hope he ends up in jail for a lot of years.


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## Mindina

I thought the dog picture in the article was the actual dog that attacked. The video i think is just random dog footage


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## spindledreams

so you mean it is bad for me to play tug a war with my POODLE in a similar manner? Would yall be up in arms if this was a collie? or a St Bernard or any breed but the dreaded and hated NON BREED title that means any dog with a wide head and short coat.


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## patk

no, i mean it is poor judgment to play tug with a dog that has been bred - not taught, bred - to be aggressive and to fight. even the maligned cesar millan, who is a proponent of saving pitbulls and has one of his own, has said he does not want his dog, junior, to "get in touch with" his aggressive side.


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## Dechi

I don't think your poddle would have any interest in playing this way, and even if it did, it wouldn't bite and tear without letting go, like a pitbull has been bred to do from the beginning.

I read an article where they sedated a pitbull, he was practically unconscious, and kept his full grip on a wire bar, never letting go. That's how strong their instinct is. I've also read that for dog fighting purposes, they have been bred and selected for not giving any signals before attacking. This is helpful to surprise the opponent. That is also why some dogs attack out of nowhere.

When you start reading about pitbull statistics, it's pretty scary. 2 breeds are responsible for 75% of all deaths in humans by dog mauling in the United States, pitbulls and rottweilers. I used to defend the breed, but now I think what we, humans, have done with it is undefendable. 

If a poodle bites, you will have a few punctures wounds. If a pitbull bites, you will have severe lacerations and deep muscles damages. You will most probably need reconstructive surgery, because those dogs were bred not to let go, bite deep and tear tissues. That's if you survive.


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## ericwd9

Over one thousand years of breeding has a lasting effect on any breed. Collies=sheep, Labs=Birds, Huskies=pulling and Pit-bulls=Fighting to the death. Poodles=? Mine is a bird dog.
Eric.


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## lisasgirl

Shouldn't this be in the "Other Animals" forum? I'm not sure what it has to do with Poodles. I find its inclusion here pretty inappropriate.

There are lots of issues with dog breed bite/attack statistics - not least that people misidentify dog breeds all the time (particularly pit bulls, which aren't really a breed so much as a type). Regardless, I don't think liking or disliking any other breed is particularly relevant to Poodle ownership.


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## Tiny Poodles

lisasgirl said:


> Shouldn't this be in the "Other Animals" forum? I'm not sure what it has to do with Poodles. I find its inclusion here pretty inappropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> There are lots of issues with dog breed bite/attack statistics - not least that people misidentify dog breeds all the time (particularly pit bulls, which aren't really a breed so much as a type). Regardless, I don't think liking or disliking any other breed is particularly relevant to Poodle ownership.



It is not another animal, it is another breed. And since many of us encounter them in our daily lives, I think it is important to be aware.
The other day all of the small dogs were in the big dog run, and no dogs but Timi were in the small dog run. I wanted to take Timi in, but thanks to the previous discussions in this forum, I waited until the one Pit in there left.
After we left the small dog run, the guy with the DA Pit brought his dog in there to get some exercise alone and all was right.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> I don't think your poddle would have any interest in playing this way, and even if it did, it wouldn't bite and tear without letting go, like a pitbull has been bred to do from the beginning.
> 
> I read an article where they sedated a pitbull, he was practically unconscious, and kept his full grip on a wire bar, never letting go. That's how strong their instinct is. I've also read that for dog fighting purposes, they have been bred and selected for not giving any signals before attacking. This is helpful to surprise the opponent. That is also why some dogs attack out of nowhere.
> 
> When you start reading about pitbull statistics, it's pretty scary. 2 breeds are responsible for 75% of all deaths in humans by dog mauling in the United States, pitbulls and rottweilers. I used to defend the breed, but now I think what we, humans, have done with it is undefendable.
> 
> If a poodle bites, you will have a few punctures wounds. If a pitbull bites, you will have severe lacerations and deep muscles damages. You will most probably need reconstructive surgery, because those dogs were bred not to let go, bite deep and tear tissues. That's if you survive.



Oh Timi is a ferocious tugger, it is her favorite game, but she is not a ferocious dog, so no harm done.


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## lisasgirl

Most discussions about other breeds take place in the "Other Animals" forum. That's why "dogs" are listed in the forum description.

Look, I've worked with pit bull type dogs in rescue for a long time, and I've owned a pit mix in the past. I understand that this is a complicated issue and I'm unlikely to change anyone's minds or opinions. But if I were a visitor to this forum and saw this topic here, I would take it to mean that believing all pit bulls are violent and owning poodles was somehow connected, or that the poodle owners here all endorsed your opinion. I am not comfortable with that. So since the subject is off-topic anyway, I would prefer that it happen somewhere else.

Again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about pit bull type dogs specifically. But if you think about a breed that you care about, and you imagine coming across a topic like this about them, maybe you can understand a little bit why I'm uncomfortable with it being here.

This is a forum about Poodles, so let's talk about Poodles here please.


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## Dechi

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh Timi is a ferocious tugger, it is her favorite game, but she is not a ferocious dog, so no harm done.



I wish mine were a tugger, too !

I've had many Boston terriers, and even though they're not considered a pitbull, they have really good grip too. My dogs would get a hold of a stick, or piece of rope, and I could lift them up in the air as high as I could, they would never let go and just twist their bodies and hang on ! That was fun...


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## Dechi

Lisasgirl, mods can move the thread in another section if they feel appropriate.


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## lily cd re

Tiny Poodles I was just about to post on this but saw that you started a thread for it.

The owner was arrested on charges unrelated to the dog's attack on the girl. But yes a character of dubious judgement and thoughtfulness for his fellow humans.

I know a bit about the town where this happened. I imagine there are tons of toughened up pitties there, possibly underground fighting going on.


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## Granberry

I owned a Rottweiler in the mid '90's, before pit bulls were the bad dog du jour. The Rottweiler clubs emphasized to everyone that to be a responsible Rottweiler owner, you had to accept certain things - things that I see pit bull owners refusing to accept. We accepted that Rottweilers were very strong and took a certain type of person to own (i.e., experienced dog owners, knowledgeable and informed, and ready to take on the alpha role), that they required constant supervision around children, that most people had zero business breeding them, that buying from a BYB was absolutely wrong because it supported an industry that frequently bred for massive size and strength, that formal obedience was an absolute necessity, and that the FIRST moment your Rottweiler showed a sign of aggression, steps needed to be taken. Unfortunately, I have never had a conversation with a pit bull owner who agreed with these things for their breed. Maybe I just need to talk to more pit owners, but I don't think so. I think so many people just repeat the refrain "it's all in how they're raised" instead of accepting that there dangers inherent in the breed. It's a shame because the Rottweiler clubs were successful in getting the message out and the statistics changed, and the pit bull clubs could do the same if they tried.


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## Tiny Poodles

Dechi said:


> I wish mine were a tugger, too !
> 
> 
> 
> I've had many Boston terriers, and even though they're not considered a pitbull, they have really good grip too. My dogs would get a hold of a stick, or piece of rope, and I could lift them up in the air as high as I could, they would never let go and just twist their bodies and hang on ! That was fun...



I could totally do that with Timi, but I choose not to - don't want her getting hurt?


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## TrixieTreasure

lisasgirl said:


> Most discussions about other breeds take place in the "Other Animals" forum. That's why "dogs" are listed in the forum description.
> 
> Look, I've worked with pit bull type dogs in rescue for a long time, and I've owned a pit mix in the past. I understand that this is a complicated issue and I'm unlikely to change anyone's minds or opinions. But if I were a visitor to this forum and saw this topic here, I would take it to mean that believing all pit bulls are violent and owning poodles was somehow connected, or that the poodle owners here all endorsed your opinion. I am not comfortable with that. So since the subject is off-topic anyway, I would prefer that it happen somewhere else.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about pit bull type dogs specifically. But if you think about a breed that you care about, and you imagine coming across a topic like this about them, maybe you can understand a little bit why I'm uncomfortable with it being here.
> 
> This is a forum about Poodles, so let's talk about Poodles here please




I have to agree. This could be very confusing for new people who come here and want to read about Poodles. Since this has nothing to do with Poodles, I believe this really belongs on the "other animals" forum.

Which brings me to remember, not too long ago, I was accused of going way off topic to what the thread ( about Poodles) was about. I didn't even comprehend that there was a problem until I was scolded for doing it. 


I'm just saying, if it's important to talk about Poodles and stay on the topic of Poodles within a thread, shouldn't it equally be important to keep discussions of other breeds of dogs in the forum in which it was intended for?

Personally, I think so. Just my opinion.


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## Tiny Poodles

lily cd re said:


> Tiny Poodles I was just about to post on this but saw that you started a thread for it.
> 
> The owner was arrested on charges unrelated to the dog's attack on the girl. But yes a character of dubious judgement and thoughtfulness for his fellow humans.
> 
> I know a bit about the town where this happened. I imagine there are tons of toughened up pitties there, possibly underground fighting going on.



Yes, I read that the yard was full of debris, so probably not an upscale hood.
But I also read the the owner was the girl's Mom's boyfriend, so the dog probably knew her too!


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## Tiny Poodles

Granberry said:


> I owned a Rottweiler in the mid '90's, before pit bulls were the bad dog du jour. The Rottweiler clubs emphasized to everyone that to be a responsible Rottweiler owner, you had to accept certain things - things that I see pit bull owners refusing to accept. We accepted that Rottweilers were very strong and took a certain type of person to own (i.e., experienced dog owners, knowledgeable and informed, and ready to take on the alpha role), that they required constant supervision around children, that most people had zero business breeding them, that buying from a BYB was absolutely wrong because it supported an industry that frequently bred for massive size and strength, that formal obedience was an absolute necessity, and that the FIRST moment your Rottweiler showed a sign of aggression, steps needed to be taken. Unfortunately, I have never had a conversation with a pit bull owner who agreed with these things for their breed. Maybe I just need to talk to more pit owners, but I don't think so. I think so many people just repeat the refrain "it's all in how they're raised" instead of accepting that there dangers inherent in the breed. It's a shame because the Rottweiler clubs were successful in getting the message out and the statistics changed, and the pit bull clubs could do the same if they tried.



There was a link to a pit bull forum that somebody once posted here where the participants appeared well versed in the in-bred traits of the breed and safe and appropriate management of them, and it was refreshing to read!
One of the things that they strongly emphasized was that no pitbull should ever step paw inside of a dog park, but sadly since all of the pit owners that I meet are at the dog park, I can say nope, I have never met a responsible Pit owner...


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## Tiny Poodles

lisasgirl said:


> Most discussions about other breeds take place in the "Other Animals" forum. That's why "dogs" are listed in the forum description.
> 
> Look, I've worked with pit bull type dogs in rescue for a long time, and I've owned a pit mix in the past. I understand that this is a complicated issue and I'm unlikely to change anyone's minds or opinions. But if I were a visitor to this forum and saw this topic here, I would take it to mean that believing all pit bulls are violent and owning poodles was somehow connected, or that the poodle owners here all endorsed your opinion. I am not comfortable with that. So since the subject is off-topic anyway, I would prefer that it happen somewhere else.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about pit bull type dogs specifically. But if you think about a breed that you care about, and you imagine coming across a topic like this about them, maybe you can understand a little bit why I'm uncomfortable with it being here.
> 
> This is a forum about Poodles, so let's talk about Poodles here please.



If you feel that this thread needs to be moved please refrain from any more off topic posts such as this and write to the mods about your concern.
Me, I think that Pitbulls have much to do with poodles because like no other breed, I encounter them every single time that I leave my house with my poodles, and I wish to continue to discuss the topic with my poodle peeps!


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## Tiny Poodles

Speaking of Pitbulls and Poodles, I am wondering what do you guys think is the best tactic when passing one on the sidewalk when I am walking Timi?
Generally I will pull Timi tight to my far side and make eye contact with the owner, sort of asking them to keep a tight short grip on their dog, and if they do I will walk her by.
Other times, if the owner does not make eye contact or seems to brush off my concerned look, I will pick her up, blocking the dogs sight of her as much as possible and hurry past.
My question is, should I be picking her up every time that we pass one?
I both don't want to make Timi fearful of large dogs, nor do I want to insight the pits prey drive by lifting her up.
I am reminded of a Pit in a class that Timi took - every time that I picked her up, it lunged for her. I felt it's teeth graze my arm as it's jaw snapped shut, but it was not trying to get me, so as long as it could not reach Timi, we were both relatively safe.
So what do you think - pick her up all the time, or continue to decide case by case?


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## Caddy

This is a terrible tragedy, not the first and will not be the last. So sad... I have never been a defender or an attacker when it comes to pit bulls until I had experiences of my own, and yes, read the experiences of other on this forum. I am afraid of pitbulls and their owners for myself and my dog, that is just honestly how I feel. Some of you may remember the pitbull that recently came to a dog social, muzzled and still attacked and scared the crap out of me and everyone else. Well the owner of that pitbull posted on a local dog group forum yesterday, saying her and her dog were unfairly treated and discriminated against by this local business when she was asked to leave. She sugar coated what happened -I was there- and finished by saying how loving and playful he is. HA!
On another note, I wish people would stop saying "you posted in the wrong place" "you went off topic" or "new people & lurker's won't understand", RELAX.......


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## N2Mischief

That is hard to say TP, it does seem to increase the prey drive, but then again, once they get your dog in their mouth, it is pretty much all over, so whatever it takes to prevent that first, and probably last, bite.


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## Mfmst

I remember reading on the pit bull forum, that they did not blame us at all for crossing the street when encountering them on a walk with their dogs. That's where I read about break sticks.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> That is hard to say TP, it does seem to increase the prey drive, but then again, once they get your dog in their mouth, it is pretty much all over, so whatever it takes to prevent that first, and probably last, bite.



Hum, maybe I should start picking her up all the time? I would much rather take the bite than have her take it, so even if lifting her does overall increase the likelihood of any bite?


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## Tiny Poodles

Mfmst said:


> I remember reading on the pit bull forum, that they did not blame us at all for crossing the street when encountering them on a walk with their dogs. That's where I read about break sticks.



Unfortunately crossing in the middle of the street is rarely an option in NYC. Even trying to would cause me to take my eyes off the pit bull as I looked for a spot to slip between the cars and give the "my dog is friendly " type owner a chance to slip in on us...


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## N2Mischief

Tiny Poodles said:


> Hum, maybe I should start picking her up all the time? I would much rather take the bite than have her take it, so even if lifting her does overall increase the likelihood of any bite?


I honestly don't know, When Isabel was killed, she was on the floor next to me. I didn't even get a chance to pick her up, it was too quick.


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> I honestly don't know, When Isabel was killed, she was on the floor next to me. I didn't even get a chance to pick her up, it was too quick.



I know, that was such a horrid surprise in your own home.
Except for a couple of times when I have been surprised by one coming quietly up from behind as we are walking along, most of the time I have a few moments to decide what to do...


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## ericwd9

*Pit Bull forum.*

This is the pit-bull forum mentioned.

Here is a discussion about dog parks:
Pitbull's and Dog Parks - Page 9 - Pitbulls : Go Pitbull Dog Forums

A senior moderator says "I am just going to say that if you have a APBT there will be no warning. This is why we need to keep our dogs out of these parks so they don't get anymore bad publicity. You can not train genetics."

Eric:alien2:


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## lily cd re

I don't know that I would pick my dogs up even if I could. I think I would rather drop the leashes and let them have a chance to get away since all of mine are big and fast. I carry a "walking stick" when I am out in my area that I would use to try to defend along with Spray Shield. Although thankfully the problem dogs in my neighborhood (aside from a crazy labradoodle that bolted its front door once and jumped on Peeves when he was a puppy) have moved away.

The work of responsible rottie owners is a model for any bully breed and even for poodle owners. Just last week I was in a large pet store and the cashier was amazed that Lily and Javelin were friendly since all her previous experiences with poodles were bad. All breeds can have their bad apples and having owners of such dogs take extra steps to ensure safety of all is important.


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## Mfmst

If I had a dog Timi's size and could not get to the other side of the street, I would pick her up. By that action, it should be clear to the owner of the pb, that I don't trust his dog. I'm not going to apologize about that. And then I would pray that he has solid control over his dog, because I've made us both the target. Brrrrrr.


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## mom2m

I don't know if this is possible, but maybe you should carry some of that Spray Shield, Tiny Poodles.
I would be reluctant to pick up Timi every time, you don't want to make either of you a target, or make Timi afraid of all large dogs. I suppose I would pick up Timi if the owner avoided eye contact.

Keep in mind, I have NO experience walking a small poodle in a crowded place. Finn weighs about 58lbs and we live in a suburban foothill area in So Calif. We occassionally encounter a neighbor with their dog (no pit bulls).

I feel such sadness for that poor child. And the children who witnessed the attack.


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## Naira

This is infuriating. 

I hope the owner is charged with murder, manslaughter or something of that sort. 

I am absolutely outraged!


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## lily cd re

mom2m said:


> I don't know if this is possible, but maybe you should carry some of that Spray Shield, Tiny Poodles.
> I would be reluctant to pick up Timi every time, you don't want to make either of you a target, or make Timi afraid of all large dogs. I suppose I would pick up Timi if the owner avoided eye contact.
> 
> Keep in mind, I have NO experience walking a small poodle in a crowded place. Finn weighs about 58lbs and we live in a suburban foothill area in So Calif. We occassionally encounter a neighbor with their dog (no pit bulls).
> 
> I feel such sadness for that poor child. And the children who witnessed the attack.



The death of the little girl was tragic, but just think about the trauma to those who witnessed it, especially the other children.


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## Tiny Poodles

Ugh and the "it isn't the breed, it's the owner" people are out in full force on Facebook.


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## BorderKelpie

Yeah, my oldest just shared a 'how they are raised' thing on FB. I texted her to correct her. 

I have owned/fostered four. I've known many others. I personally liked all the ones I've met, BUT, these are not the dogs for the average pet owner at all. I have determined after my last foster that I am more than likey done with them. He was difficult to read, even for my very observant BC. He never showed signs of aggression, but I also know that I am not in the position to manange a dog with the power and tenacity of a large terrrier. Shame, too, I like the terrier personality. 

As long as people (my DD included) keep closing their eyes to the truth and spreading misinformation, little people and the dogs will pay the ultimate price. It's not how they're raised, it's how they're managed.


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## ericwd9

There are other aggressive animals. They are not permitted in public, period.


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## Mfmst

I mentioned this story to my husband. He held our last dog aloft while fending off an attack from two pb's. He still has PTS from that nightmare encounter, so I cannot imagine what emotional trauma the witnesses to the NY pb killing will suffer.


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## kayla_baxter

Pitbulls were bred to be dog aggressive, not human aggressive. In the days before matching dogs was made illegal manbiting game dogs were heavily culled. Dog men needed to be able to be in the pit during a match and grab their dogs without the dog redirecting on them. The problem with today is that there are so many bad, irresponsible breeders that will breed any pitbull type dog regardless of temperament. When they're the most numerous breed in the country there are going to be a higher number of unstable, poorly bred dogs out there. 
I've worked with dogs for five years, had hundreds come through classes and have done nail trims on hundreds, I've seen plenty of dog aggressive bull breeds, but only one that made me uneasy when I did his nails. On the other hand, I've either been bitten or snapped at by numerous chihuahuas, min pins, rotties, labs, goldens, POODLES, doodles, spaniels, a berner puppy, malamute, etc. 
Any pitbull owner who believes they can train out animal aggression, takes their dog to a dog park or leaves their dog unattended with other dogs are the kind of people responsible for the breeds bad reputation. I guarantee that over on pitbull chat right now the responsible owners are taking about that the dog in that attack should have been put down long before this. The responsible owners have a zero forgiveness for a pitbull that shows aggression towards a person and will always suggest putting down an unstable dog. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tiny Poodles

Mfmst said:


> I mentioned this story to my husband. He held our last dog aloft while fending off an attack from two pb's. He still has PTS from that nightmare encounter, so I cannot imagine what emotional trauma the witnesses to the NY pb killing will suffer.



OMG, how does one fend off two attacking Pits? Were they only going for the dog and not him? How did he get away?


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## Granberry

@Kayla, I hope that is the case, i.e., that the responsible pit bull owners are pointing out the problems. That hasn't been my experience the times I've discussed pit bull aggression with pit bull owners. There was a toddler in my state who lost his entire arm because he put his fingers through a fence and the pit bulls in the yard pulled his arm off. Multiple PB owners in our online conversation said that the child should have known better and that the dogs were simply responding to a threat. It is conversations like that that convince me that BSL is the only solution because there is absolutely no way to reach common ground. 

My Rottweiler was 8 or 9, and I knew he was not aging gracefully. His bad hips made him grumpy and he was losing his hearing and that made him jumpy. On his last day, my 4-year-old dropped a piece of cheese. Bogey (the dog) and Chandler (the son) went for the cheese at the same time. Bogey's proper procedure would have been to step back, allow the alpha (my child) to get the cheese. However, this time he didn't; he barked a warning bark and went for the cheese. Fortunately, the bark was so loud and scary that Chandler took a step backwards and I leapt in a single bound like Superwoman in case intervention was necessary. But it wasn't. I just sadly let him get the rest of the cheese and the vet put him down the next day. We weren't an appropriate Rottweiler home to begin with (though Chandler came unexpectedly and after the dog), but we tried to rise to the occasion through obedience classes, constant vigilance, balanced with our continued responsibilities to the dog. If all PB owners would do the same, I believe there would be a lot fewer sad stories.


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