# Does dam size determine puppy size? What does?



## PuffDaddy

From a scientific standpoint, Why is it often said that the size of the dam is more likely to determine the future size of the puppy than the size of the father is? 

Offspring are always a random mixing of their parents genes. While a lot of factors could be at play, height is not a sex linked trait to my knowledge (meaning that it would only be found on that extra tail of the mother's XX chromosome, thus the fathers XY chromosome would not be able to donate the gene to offspring, and fathers would never contribute to height) 

Due to this, I don't understand how the mother would be more likely to determine size from a genetic standpoint. Is it more of a wives tail, or is there a concrete reason for this? I can imagine that it could have something to do with the hormone environment in the womb, but I am curious if anyone actually has an answer!

As far as puppy growth goes, I have seen this chart floating around this forum in posts dating back for the last few years, but not much follow up. Has anyone actually tracked with it and found it to be accurate (for standards)? To me it seems like it's a bit excessive in its size predictions, but I am curious if anyone has any long term feedback!


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## CharismaticMillie

I've not ever heard anyone experienced in breeding say that the dam is more influential than the sire in determining adult size and in practice it's definitely not the case. I think you have heard a wive's tail. Certainly she determines the size at birth, but not ultimate size. Size is very complex and you have to consider the size of not only the parents but the grandparents, great grandparents etc. to have an idea of what you might see in a litter. In my experience, I find that it's reasonable to say that most puppies in a litter will end up, size wise, somewhere from the smallest parent's size to the largest parent's size, give or take a little.


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## marialydia

As far as the chart goes, it was pretty accurate for Pericles, who at 2.5 years is a steady 54 pounds. At 22 weeks, he was 34 pounds, or 63 percent of his current weight; at 28 weeks, he was 44 pounds, or 81 percent of his current weight. So he gained weight pretty much according to the chart for 4 or 5 months; kept growing until about 7 months, but then eased off the growth rate. He was tall and a bit skinny until he was a year old.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

I do not believe the Mother is the influence of size. Our boy Quincy is a petite male from an average size sire and dam. Every litter he has produced has included a couple of very petite puppies regardless of who he has been bred to. Marialydia's boy Pericles is out of our Journey and NOLA's Lombardi. All of the males are in the range that Lombardi is and the girls lean toward Mama's weight and height ( a little shorter and a littler lighter than the males). Our next litter, Journey was bred to Quincy, with five very average size pups, 2 smaller pups and one female who is 19" and 30 pounds. Journey's next litter was with NOLA's boy Brees, and the sizes of the pups are much the same as her 1st litter. So in my opinion, Quincy was the influence behind those two small, and one very small puppy.


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## peppersb

I bred my Cammie who is 35 pounds to a gorgeous 40 pound male thinking I had the ideal combo. I really wanted a litter of small standard poodles. Well I am very pleased with the litter in terms of structure, temperament and health. But size is another matter! Not what I wanted! The boys were all 10 pounds heavier than their dad and 15 pounds heavier than their mom (one of the boys was even bigger). We did get one girl who is about Cammie's size, and the other girl is not a whole lot bigger -- she is about 40 pounds, but quite a bit taller than Cammie.

Interestingly, my vet said that the sire's size was more of a determining factor than the dam. But a researcher that I corresponded with said that size is very hard to predict, and that you cannot assume that a 35 pound bitch and a 40 pound dog will produce puppies in that range. She was certainly right in the case of my litter.

I did follow that chart while Cammie was growing and kept notes as you can see in my chart below. It did not do a great job of predicting her adult weight, but was closer on height. Her adult weight is 35 pounds, and height is about 21.5 inches. I seem to remember seeing somewhere that that chart was originally developed for golden retrievers. Or maybe golden doodles. Not sure about the breed, but I don't think that it was originally for poodles.


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## PuffDaddy

Thanks to everyone for answering so far. I have come across this statement about the dam determining litter size many times (although not from any particularly reliable sources) and I could never imagine why it would make sense, nor could I find any information to back it up, so I figured I would throw it out there. 

I guess it is fair to say that puppy size is kind of like human baby size; you don't really know what you are going to get and it could match up to the genes of either parent, keeping in mind that each parent is carrying all of the genes of their ancestors and could easily donate super tall great grand dad's height genes as easily as they could short grandma's. Genetics is often about random assignment. (of course in the long term it may not be so random, and that is how you get selective breeding for traits etc., but that is another story!)

In my fiance's family it is very funny (I am referring to humans now!). They have two relatively short parents, and three sons ranging 25-35 years old. All of the boys kind of have the same face, but they come in three different sizes. One is shorter than either parent; 5 foot 6 and average build, one is 6 foot 1 and very thin, and the third is 6 foot 4 and a beefcake. I always get a kick out of seeing them together. It's like they made one kid in three totally different bodies. 

One thing I didn't mention is that the statement (rumor) about the "dam determines (or is more likely to determine) size" has always been broadly applied in the (admittedly unreliable) contexts I have read it and certainly isn't just about poodles. Any responsible breeder would be matching up dogs of relatively compatible size. Of course, you could match up a smaller standard to a larger one, but no responsible person would breed a toy female with an average size standard male.

However, If you had a mixed breed pairing that occurred naturally and one dog was considerably larger than the other, I wonder how it would play out in that case. Would it again be completely random, or would the mother's body be able control the size of the puppies to some extent (obviously not with genes but with hormones) to ensure a safe pregnancy and birth. 

I realize my question is a bit nerdy and hypothetical, but I like to discuss this kind of thing!

Ps.
PepperSB I think you are right that this chart might be about golden doodles. It would be interesting to see one about standards, but I haven't found one. As a science writer and a biologist, I am a trained researcher. Sometimes, I have thought it would be 'fun' to compile one of these charts for standards (because they seem to be lacking), but that would probably require interviewing like 1,000 people who keep accurate records of their spoos growth. It would be a rather laborious hobby...maybe when I retire (which is not too soon, so no one hold your breath!).


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## peppersb

PuffDaddy said:


> ...
> In my fiance's family it is very funny (I am referring to humans now!). They have two relatively short parents, and three sons ranging 25-35 years old. All of the boys kind of have the same face, but they come in three different sizes. One is shorter than either parent; 5 foot 6 and average build, one is 6 foot 1 and very thin, and the third is 6 foot 4 and a beefcake. I always get a kick out of seeing them together. It's like they made one kid in three totally different bodies.
> ...


Very funny! Your story reminds me of the day that my first puppy went to her new owners. I had met the purchasers several times before. They had come to meet Cammie before the pups were born, and then they came a few times to see the babies. But when they came to pick up their puppy, they brought their adult son with them. I remember opening the door and seeing the new owners who were kind of average height along with their son who was HUGE -- quite a bit taller than his parents!. And I was hoping, even believing, that the two small standard poodles that I had bred were going to produce more small standard poodles. Well I saw that tall lanky young man standing next to his parents, I felt like I was smacked in the face by a genetics lesson! Short/average people can produce tall kids! And as I later discovered, 35/40 pound poodles can produce 50 pound poodles. Oh well. 



PuffDaddy said:


> ...
> However, If you had a mixed breed pairing that occurred naturally and one dog was considerably larger than the other, I wonder how it would play out in that case. Would it again be completely random, or would the mother's body be able control the size of the puppies to some extent (obviously not with genes but with hormones) to ensure a safe pregnancy and birth.


Quite a few breeders have bred standard poodles to mini poodles in an effort to produce an in between size. Minis are less than 15 inches (though some may get an inch or two little larger) and most standards are over 20 inches. So there is a significant size gap. I am guessing that the adult size is controlled by both parents to an equal extent, but not sure. One thing to note however, is that the puppies from a mini-standard cross are typically not well-proportioned. Often they have short legs and a longer body. I've seen pictures of some pretty funny looking standard-mini crosses on the internet.



PuffDaddy said:


> ...
> Ps.
> PepperSB I think you are right that this chart might be about golden doodles. It would be interesting to see one about standards, but I haven't found one. As a science writer and a biologist, I am a trained researcher. Sometimes, I have thought it would be 'fun' to compile one of these charts for standards (because they seem to be lacking), but that would probably require interviewing like 1,000 people who keep accurate records of their spoos growth. It would be a rather laborious hobby...maybe when I retire (which is not too soon, so no one hold your breath!).


When Cammie was a puppy, and I was obsessing about how big she was going to be, I found a puppy growth calculator online. I entered my puppy's breed, age and weight and was automatically given an estimate of her adult weight. The site then retained the info that I entered and used it to make their future estimates more accurate. That seemed like a great way to do it. But, unfortunately, the site stopped working when Cammie was 8 months old. So maybe you could use the same procedure?


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## CharismaticMillie

PuffDaddy said:


> Thanks to everyone for answering so far. I have come across this statement about the dam determining litter size many times (although not from any particularly reliable sources) and I could never imagine why it would make sense, nor could I find any information to back it up, so I figured I would throw it out there.


Ahhhhhhhhh. The dam *does* determine "litter size" - aka - the number of puppies born in a litter.  As long as the stud dog does his part and contributes the millions of sperm, litter size is dependent on the number of eggs dropped by the bitch.


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## PuffDaddy

"I have come across this statement about the dam determining litter size many times"

Charismaticmillie, sorry about the confusion, I accidentally used the wrong phrasing when I wrote that sentence.

I AM referring to the size of the puppies in the litter,

NOT the "litter size" (how many puppies are in the litter). It would indeed make sense that the dam would control this.

I am so used to the phrase "litter size" that it came out as a slip of the tongue.

I did come across this one article about the subject, although it is actually about horses and not dogs, and it is about performance as opposed to size. However, it IS about genetics and was referenced by the canine institute of biology in reference to dogs and whether or not the dam or sire plays a larger role in puppy traits. 

By the way, They have an amazing blog and are one of the rare comprehensive information sources about dogs that truly dives into scientific (as opposed to anecdotal) evidence. The institute is focused on genetics and is run by experts around the world. The have a lot of amazing studies and projects going on to improve the genetic diversity of purebreds in the future. Everyone should check it out, especially those into breeding.

Here's the blog:
The Institute of Canine Biology - Blog

Here's the particular article:
Is the dam more important than the sire? - The Institute of Canine Biology

It basically sums up what was said here. While there are some discrepancies here and there, Dam and sire play an equal role in traits (unless they are specifically sex linked) as far as science can tell.

PepperSB I have heard of this kind of mixing before with standards and larger miniatures. I can imagine it produces some funny looking creatures. While it might not be the best for confirmation, introducing genetic diversity (into the standard line in particular) is the best thing that could happen to the breed which is still suffering from many of the great genetic bottlenecks of the past (and present) and is essentially at a crisis point, as the breeding population size is extremely small due to the search for perfection. 

Interestingly toys, miniatures and mediums are all genetically related and have a more diverse genetic makeup than the standard which is distantly related and genetically isolated due to bottlenecks (famous sires) and the how it has consistently been bred for cosmetic perfection as opposed to true genetic diversity. From a genetic standpoint, the standard is completely unrelated to the smaller breeds; as much as a setter or some other random dog breed would be! I love that fun fact. 

It's funny, you must have had a moment of clarity when that giant kid showed up at your door! I can imagine that Cammie and the father of those puppies were the smaller members of both of their families, so you probably had all sorts of their giant grandparents and great uncles screwing up the mix!


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## peppersb

PuffDaddy -- Love this thread and love reading your comments. But I hope you won't be offended if I disagree with one point.

I'm guessing that your point about how the standard poodle "is essentially at a crisis point, as the breeding population size is extremely small" came from the Institute of Canine Genetics and its founder. I took their course on poodle genetics a few years ago, and this sounds like the kind of thing that they say.

This issue has recently been studied by a serious team of researchers led by Niels C. Pedersen of UC Davis. He teamed up with leaders in the poodle community (Lynn Brucker and Natalie Tessier) and they recently published the results of their research: _The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addison’s disease _(Canine Genetics and Epidemiology, 2015)

Their view of the state of the standard poodle gene pool is quite different and more nuanced. They say: “*Standard Poodles as a whole remain genetically diverse*, but steps should be taken to rebalance diversity using genetic outliers and if necessary, outcrosses to phenotypically similar but genetically distinct breeds (my emphasis)." So based on their research, it would seem that the standard poodle gene pool is diverse and is not at a crisis point. But it can and should be improved. And I think there is general agreement that the extreme in-breeding of the min-20th century did damage to the breed.

You can read the Pedersen article here (it is heavy reading):
https://cgejournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s40575-015-0026-5

Natalie Tessier has a fabulous presentation on poodle diversity on her website:
Genetic Diversity Test for Standard Poodles - Poodles de Grenier


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## lily cd re

Well I just noticed this thread, so I apologize if my late comments don't relate, but height is a polygenically inherited trait with heavy environmental influence (for poodles, other dogs and for people). That is to say that several gene loci contribute to the potential maximum height. It is not sex linked. Whether one attains the potential maximum depends on nutrition while growing in addition to the genetic potential. 

As an anecdotal example, one of my friends in graduate school was a medical student who was the oldest of eight children (five were boys). When my friend was young, the family got by one his father's catholic school teacher's salary. Things were tight for them and he often talked about how much oatmeal he ate when he was growing up. At 18 he went to Annapolis (graduated 3rd in his class BTW). Two of his brothers also attended Annapolis shortly thereafter. As each of the children went off to college with fewer mouths to feed, the food quality improved and each of the five boys from oldest to youngest got taller as an adult by 2 inches. My friend is 5'6' tall and in age order the others reached to over 6' tall. He always ascribed his shorter stature to so much maple oatmeal in his childhood.


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## PuffDaddy

Hi Pepper! Thanks for your comment and I am surely not offended! I realize that the statement I made was a bit of a controversial one, and I was kind of throwing it out there as a blanket statement looking for a conversation  

What you mention is totally on point; That the breed does not have to go 'down the tubes' per se, but that breeders need to start using sires that are 'outliers' as you quoted in your post; dogs that do not share the genetic similarities of the ones that are typically used. Genetic diversity is all it needs, and in theory the diversity is available. 

One of the most damaging things that breeders can do, according to geneticists, is to always use to the same "amazing" sires so that one dog has many litters (some advocate for a litter cap on sires), or to always go for the cosmetically perfect dog and exclude every dog that doesn't hit the confirmation points on the head; as opposed to sometimes taking a dog that is less cosmetically perfect, but is more genetically diverse. ( geographically or it didn't go through the bottleneck etc.)

When I say breeding population, I am not actually referring to the dogs in existence, but the dogs who are ACTUALLY used by breeders to create the new generations. In that sense, the breeding population is very small, because most dogs who are not champions etc. are excluded, and naturally breeders want the 'best' and this limits the pool further. It isn't just the standard, however, it is the case with many, if not most, pure bred breeds. 

However, as you point out there actually many possibilities and genetic nuances out there (who might not have the perfect nose) but who are healthy and who SHOULD be brought into the "breeding population", definitely!
Surely, there are even champions out there who can fit that bill as well. 

One issue is that even scientist don't completely understand the gene pool so it is certainly hard for breeders to determine WHO is truly genetically distinct, especially considering that as you go back in time records aren't that comprehensive (especially when you have to use numerous international databases...messy).

Actually, they are doing a lot of research on canine DNA and trying to map it out more clearly so that breeders can have more comprehensive databases in the future to refer to. The Institute of canine biology is also trying to create a comprehensive international database that would consolidate all of records from different nations, in an attempt to give breeders a better overhead of the lineage of the dogs they are using. 

If this issue could come more into light and become more accessible for breeders to understand and work with, the breed could surely have a very bright future. Couple that with comprehensive breeder science education and, The standard poodle could actually see a healthier and more diverse future IF these points become a reality in the coming years. As you say, the dogs are out there, we just have to know who to breed with who.

I am in a bit of a rush since it is Saturday evening here, but I will try and throw up some interesting links and supporting sources over the next few days when I have a moment. 

What started out as a pretty mundane question actually has very interesting implications and nuances, thanks for chatting!


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## PuffDaddy

Lilly, your story about the family is interesting. I guess there is also that chance that the kids were genetically programmed to grow taller as individuals (kind of like my fiance's family where the height of the kids is totally wacky). We will never know for sure, although the case for a nutrition deficit is compelling and can definitely make sense. 

Your other points about the genetic and environmental factors that determine height are highly appreciated, thank you!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

Natalie Tessier has developed a wonderful site where we can review dogs in that database who have had the VGL diversity testing done. We can run test breedings with dogs we are interested in, and get a good idea of the resulting pup's internal relatedness, outlier index, etc. It is not free, but is invaluable to breeders.
https://www.betterbred.com/


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## Verve

Puffdaddy, if you are interested in the topic of genetic diversity in standard poodles, I would second the thoughts of Arreau and Peppersb and familiarize yourself with the UC Davis VGL work. IMO their work has done far more to advance the understanding of genetic diversity in poodles than that of Carol B., AND they have developed a tool available to every standard poodle breeder (as well as other breeds that have participated in the VGL project). 

As for the size of puppies relative to their parents, I would have two thoughts. The first is from Natalie and is intuitive--you will have more variation in size with a more outcrossed breeding (true outcross as measured by VGL). One of the original goals of linebreeding was to produce cookie cutter puppies. 

My second thought is based on my observation of the size of males versus the puppies they produce (males mostly because they have produced more puppies). I know of two moderate-size males, one known for throwing both very small (a 21" male) and very large puppies; the other known for producing very large offspring. The sire of PeppersB's litter is another example of a small male who produced puppies considerably larger than himself.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

There are a few groups on FB devoted to teaching laymen about the VGL testing and how it can improve the way we breed. And the VGL site also has good information if you scroll past the pricing, etc.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/720587391398080/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/434529336729485/

https://www.facebook.com/Poodlediversity/?fref=ts

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/dog/GeneticDiversityInStandardPoodles.php


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## peppersb

PuffDaddy said:


> ...The Institute of canine biology is also trying to create a comprehensive international database that would consolidate all of records from different nations, in an attempt to give breeders a better overhead of the lineage of the dogs they are using.


There already are two comprehensive databases for standard poodles -- poodledata.org and phrdatabase.com. These databases make every effort to include poodles from any and every country. When I go to poodledata and go back as far as I can looking at my Sam's mother's mother's mother (etc.), I can go back 33 generations or 27 generations for Sam's father's father's father (etc.). Both sides of the pedigree go back to right around 1900. That's pretty amazing data! And phrdatabase includes health information! Comprehensive data about the lineage of breeding dogs (standard poodles) is readily available now. The idea that the Institute could start from scratch and improve on these fabulous resources is preposterous.


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## Verve

peppersb said:


> There already are two comprehensive databases for standard poodles -- poodledata.org and phrdatabase.com. These databases make every effort to include poodles from any and every country. The idea that the Institute could start from scratch and improve on these fabulous resources is preposterous.


I agree with Peppersb. I sort of appreciated what fabulous resources we have for poodles, but understand better from participating in all-breed breeding groups how fortunate we are.


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## Kittry

PuffDaddy said:


> From a scientific standpoint, Why is it often said that the size of the dam is more likely to determine the future size of the puppy than the size of the father is?
> 
> Offspring are always a random mixing of their parents genes. While a lot of factors could be at play, height is not a sex linked trait to my knowledge (meaning that it would only be found on that extra tail of the mother's XX chromosome, thus the fathers XY chromosome would not be able to donate the gene to offspring, and fathers would never contribute to height)
> 
> Due to this, I don't understand how the mother would be more likely to determine size from a genetic standpoint. Is it more of a wives tail, or is there a concrete reason for this? I can imagine that it could have something to do with the hormone environment in the womb, but I am curious if anyone actually has an answer!
> 
> As far as puppy growth goes, I have seen this chart floating around this forum in posts dating back for the last few years, but not much follow up. Has anyone actually tracked with it and found it to be accurate (for standards)? To me it seems like it's a bit excessive in its size predictions, but I am curious if anyone has any long term feedback!


Genetics is not that simple. The pup could be 95% mom or 95 % dad. Could get 50/50 or a.throwback from great grandsire. Sometimes undesirable traits come out as well. Or recessed genetics. And yes i am an animal science major that had a 3.5 gpa so I'm not talking out my ass.


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## cowpony

Welcome Kitty. You seem to have reopened a thread that went dormant almost five years ago. I'm closing it for now, as the original poster and many of the original contributors haven't been active on Poodle Forum this year. Please pop on over to the Introductions section and tell us some more about yourself. It's always interesting to learn what recent discoveries have occurred in dog genetics.


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