# Puppy Mills?



## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

There's been some great discussion on this board in recent days and weeks about breeding practices etc. However, I did just want to share the link below just so that everyone is aware of what can take place as a result of using certain words and phrases in a public forum such as this.

http://onebarkatatime.blogspot.com/2009/08/largest-commercial-dog-breeder-in.html


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

IMO, commercial kennels are puppymills. Dogs are not and shouldn't be a commodity. (Hopefully I won't be sued b/c that's a too generalized and it's only "IMO") That judge is either crooked or ignorant, or both! Bottom line, people need to educate themselve *before* they buy a dog. Fortunately, this story will continue to bring bad publicity to the millers even if they won their lawsuit. Maybe they'll get a real job!


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

I totally agree Harley_chik. This case is just ridiculous and shows why there's so many "commercial breeders" (aka puppy mills) around. Because people are not allowed to identify them as such! I feel sorry for the woman who sued them and has been shafted twice - once when she got a puppy from a place like that and then when she had the judgement go against her.

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't get in trouble for generally talking about puppy mills. It's when you link up a breeder with the term that they could go after you. But I don't think there's anything they can do about fact based statements like "they have more than 10 litters a year". It's not libel or defamation if it's true and can be proven.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Thats a load of bull****  and I'm sure they paid out the ass for a lawar who could find any and all loop holes to jump though. If this business was so good and well like by the comunity how could ONE person threaten them?

It makes me sick that the millers are winning the fight in mass dog production.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Someone needs to send them the:

Don't breed or buy
When dogs in shelters die


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## spoofan (Dec 11, 2008)

Commercial breeders,while not my kind of a breeder,are not always puppy mills.
Most of them do health testing,offer health guarantee and do not sell to brokers or pet stores.
Many large scale facilities are open to public,inspected frequently and ran efficiently and kept in good,clean conditions.
I,personally,prefer a smaller breeder but would not go as far as throwing all large breeding programs into the same bag.
I am sure you can get a healthy beautiful puppy from a commercial breeder that is diligent and serious about their business...and yes,it is a business.
However,sometimes people combine a hobby and business and make it into a very profitable,passionate experience.


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## Sara (Aug 2, 2009)

While I find the thought of dogs being breed in substandard concitions very wrong and sad there is one thing that I think people forget to consider. There will always be good breeders and bad breeders both in what we have come to know as puppy mills as well as with private individuals. However, when a private individual is breeding, at least in Connectiuct, there is no licensing or inspection involved. That being said, I would rather buy a dog from a good commercial kennel than from a bad private breeder. The unfortunate thing is that not enough people have the knowledge to know how to tell the difference.

Another issue is that the media has portrayed "puppy mills" as being isolated to specific locations, but they can and do exisit in just about every state. Too many people think they are avoiding puppy mill dogs if they don't buy animals from the midwest for example. I have seen examples of dogs coming into our state without propper health certificates being sold as CT breed dogs. How scarry is that?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Purple Poodle said:


> Thats a load of bull****  and I'm sure they paid out the ass for a lawar who could find any and all loop holes to jump though. If this business was so good and well like by the comunity how could ONE person threaten them?
> 
> It makes me sick that the millers are winning the fight in mass dog production.


I A with harley and PP 

I have never seen a Commerical Kennel that health test, my questions are how are these people caring for all of these pups? these breeders also sell to many people how are these breeders keeping up with what they are selling ?
IMO it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep up with all the pups you sold when you are breeding on a large scale. Some of the people who buy could just dump these dogs easily or breed them them selves creating more unwanted dogs in the shelters and more BYB which we do not need. 

I again I have yet to see a commerical kennel actually health testing a (some shots and a vet check is not health testing )and breeding to some kind of standard. Most have poor quality looking dogs....


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

read paws r us FAQ ( first question) page (then the second to the last question) hwell:


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## *heather* (Jul 30, 2009)

oh my goodness!! I have never seen a kennel with SO MANY different breeds! It's completely unbelievable to me! I honestly have no clue who in their right mind would buy a puppy from them!! total craziness! :doh: (I hope I don't get sued for saying that!)


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> I A with harley and PP
> 
> I have never seen a Commerical Kennel that health test, my questions are how are these people caring for all of these pups? these breeders also sell to many people how are these breeders keeping up with what they are selling ?
> IMO it is IMPOSSIBLE to keep up with all the pups you sold when you are breeding on a large scale. Some of the people who buy could just dump these dogs easily or breed them them selves creating more unwanted dogs in the shelters and more BYB which we do not need.
> ...


I agree with this. My main concern is with the breeding dogs kept at large scale facilities. The pups are born, live there for 7 to 8 weeks and then go to live as beloved pets somewhere. The breeding dogs are often bred back to back to back, live in kennels and get little interaction. Most dog breeds (especially the poodle) have been bred for companionship. They are not happy living their lives alone in a kennel.

The other thing is that the criteria to qualify as a commercial dog breeder is pretty low. It's essentially similar to that for stock animals (I have a problem with how they're kept as well, but will save that ). As long as the dogs are kept in a clean space, fed and watered then the commercial breeder is thought to be doing a good job.


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## *heather* (Jul 30, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> read paws r us FAQ ( first question) page (then the second to the last question) hwell:


registration papers? but they're not CKC members.. hmmm


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

You are right about the lax requirements for commercial kennels. What many people don't realize is that most large scale breeding facilities are inspected by the USDA. The USDA has admitted on numerous occasions that they aren't interested in punishing or shutting down breeders. If that means giving umpteen verbal warnings, calling ahead of inspections and ignoring infractions so be it. The are on the side of the "farmers" not the consumers or the animals.


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## Sara (Aug 2, 2009)

Harley_chik said:


> You are right about the lax requirements for commercial kennels. What many people don't realize is that most large scale breeding facilities are inspected by the USDA. The USDA has admitted on numerous occasions that they aren't interested in punishing or shutting down breeders. If that means giving umpteen verbal warnings, calling ahead of inspections and ignoring infractions so be it. The are on the side of the "farmers" not the consumers or the animals.


I disagree that the USDA is not interested in protecting the best interest of the animals and consumers. As with breeders there are good USDA agents and bad USDA agents. Those that I have delt with (I had a USDA license at one point) were very by the book. At the same time they are not in the business of putting people out of business so they will work with you as long as they see that you are making the effort to conform to the guidelines. Durring the time that I had my license I think the agent called ahead of an inspection once, and our K9 Control officer NEVER called ahead.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

As Roxy25 have mentioned - I too have yet to see a commercial breeder that health tests their dog. Yes, some commercial breeders are inspected. But most are not.

Read about the petland situation at the beginning of this year... the HSUS and other organizations did an undercover investigation where they found that the puppies sold at petland petstores ALL came from puppy mills. Puppy mills the USDA inspected and approved! 
IMO I wouldn't eat meat approved by the USDA if they paid me. Look at this video and tell me if you would approve these facilities - facilities that the USDA APPROVED!?!?!?!?!?!?! (warning: graphic images)

http://video.hsus.org/?fr_story=b224f6032ef5f9bda79fdcaf446e491e5ede509d&rf=bm


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Look at this video and tell me if you would approve these facilities - facilities that the USDA APPROVED!?!?!?!?!?!?! (warning: graphic images)


Oh yuck.


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## Sara (Aug 2, 2009)

I can't watch that video because I have to have beef in my diet and one thing I am not willing to do is eat any animal that I have raised myself! We frequently get meat from the farm next door but it is a dairy farm that raises only a limited amount of beef. Although they are a USDA farm because of the dairy the beef is not USDA approved because they don't sell it.

As far as dog breeders, if the following statement is true:

"AKC inspects breeders who register seven or more litters per year. AKC also randomly selects some breeders who register between four and six litters a year for inspection. " http://www.akc.org/about/depts/investigations.cfm/

Then the AKC is just as guilty of allowing breeding to take place under substandard conditions.

I guess the point I am trying to make is, who is looking at the back yard breeders? While the numbers of animals involved are much lower it doesn't make it any more right if good breeding practices are not being followed.


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## Cdnjennga (Jul 30, 2009)

Sara said:


> I can't watch that video because I have to have beef in my diet and one thing I am not willing to do is eat any animal that I have raised myself! We frequently get meat from the farm next door but it is a dairy farm that raises only a limited amount of beef. Although they are a USDA farm because of the dairy the beef is not USDA approved because they don't sell it.
> 
> As far as dog breeders, if the following statement is true:
> 
> ...


You could watch the video if you want, it's to do with dogs not cows. 

I agree with you that poor breeding practices don't just go on in large scale operations. There's some very poor practices going on with breeders of all sizes! I think the breed clubs could do more, but they are unwilling (or unable) to get into the job of policing.

At the end of the day, I still think the buck stops with us as consumers. If we refuse to support breeders who follow questionable practices then they will either clean up their practices or go out of business... It's not that hard to check a breeder out. Never buy a puppy without seeing where they came from and at least one parent. And a good gut check is to ask yourself "would I be happy if my beloved pet was treated this way or lived in this environment?" If the answer is no, then don't get a pup from the breeder. Easy!


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## Sara (Aug 2, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> You could watch the video if you want, it's to do with dogs not cows.


I'm sure it would break my heart. Still don't think I can.


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## Sara (Aug 2, 2009)

Cdnjennga said:


> You could watch the video if you want, it's to do with dogs not cows.
> 
> I agree with you that poor breeding practices don't just go on in large scale operations. There's some very poor practices going on with breeders of all sizes! I think the breed clubs could do more, but they are unwilling (or unable) to get into the job of policing.
> 
> At the end of the day, I still think the buck stops with us as consumers. If we refuse to support breeders who follow questionable practices then they will either clean up their practices or go out of business... It's not that hard to check a breeder out. Never buy a puppy without seeing where they came from and at least one parent. And a good gut check is to ask yourself "would I be happy if my beloved pet was treated this way or lived in this environment?" If the answer is no, then don't get a pup from the breeder. Easy!



It does sound pretty simple but that is much easier said than done for so many people. Especially when you think about the breeders that put the buyer through a complete intarogation just to sell them a dog. There are people that I would probably not peg as good pet owners myself but that are actually very good to their animals. Where else does a person like that get a dog but in a pet store? 

I'll be honest, when I was looking for a puppy the reply that I got back from one breeder was so demeaning that I just looked elsewhere. I have the ideal situation and I just didn't want to have to go proving to someone that I am worthy to own one of her "babies". So, it was another breeder's puppy that came to live with me on a 340 acre farm with one other dog and me home all day with the two of them.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

> At the end of the day, I still think the buck stops with us as consumers. If we refuse to support breeders who follow questionable practices then they will either clean up their practices or go out of business... It's not that hard to check a breeder out. Never buy a puppy without seeing where they came from and at least one parent. And a good gut check is to ask yourself "would I be happy if my beloved pet was treated this way or lived in this environment?" If the answer is no, then don't get a pup from the breeder. Easy!


I totally agree... but most consumers are very uneducated as far as where things come from. I know there are people out there than doesn't even know what a puppy mill is. And the biggest problem with today society is they are so damn gullible... if you watch
the footage I've attached you'll see that that investigator asked where the dogs came from several times... he even asked whether these dogs came from puppy mills. Every time the clerk/manager assured him that the dogs came from a reputable breeder. First time dog owners won't question that... especially if they are told: our breeders are inspected by the USDA.

That... and people who do end up running into byb or puppy millers buy dogs because they think they "saved" the dog... when the reality is that they actually supported that breeder by buying a puppy from them. :rolffleyes: (If you want to save a dog - adopt one from your shelter.)


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## Bella's Momma (Jul 26, 2009)

I read that Backyard Breeders are bad, "Commercial Breeders" are bad, so what do you call the good ones? Also, what defines a 'commercial' breeder? 

Thank you.


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## Purple Poodle (May 5, 2008)

Backyard breeders are people who have a few dogs of one breed or even mixed breeds who breed them together with no regards of health or temperament to try to make a quick buck. They also have little regard to who ends up with their pups.

Commercial breeders have hundreds of breeding dogs of a certain breed/mixed breed who have puppies for sale year round, sell to pet store and brokers. The majority do no health testing and have little regard for temperament. The dogs live their lives in small runs or cages and once no longer able to produce are either put to sleep or dumped. Most do not have contact with buyers.

The good breeders are the people who care about their dogs, who take every precaution they can to produce healthy, temperamentally sound puppies who better the breed. Their dogs are companions and share their home and daily lives with their owners. They only breed a a couple of times a year and they keep their dogs until the go at old age or they re-tire them and place them in forever homes.They want to see their puppies in loving stable forever home.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

The way I see it is that even show breeders can be bad breeders. Anyone can be obsessed with something and if it goes from being about improving the breed to fulfilling their obsession (whatever that may be like puppies, money, showing dogs as a sport, etc.) it ruins the breed. I think you have to ask a lot of questions and you can't always trust that someone is a good breeder because they do testing and show their dogs. While those are admirable qualities and all breeding dogs need testing including sires and dams behind the breeding. You want to be sure that they aren't overlooking negative qualities for things like color or size or "rarity" to be more marketable. You also have to ask yourself and them why they are breeding what they are breeding? Are they doing it because they are looking for something specific or breed something out or in or are they doing it because they want to make money from the litter to show their dogs?


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Bella's Momma said:


> I read that Backyard Breeders are bad, "Commercial Breeders" are bad, so what do you call the good ones? Also, what defines a 'commercial' breeder?
> 
> Thank you.


Commercial Breeders are defined differently depending in which state you live. If you look at your state's law regarding commercial breeders (if they even have one) it should tell you what your state considers to be a "commercial breeder".... there can be a difference between the term "commercial breeder" and "puppy mill" depending on where you live. Or they can be classified as the same thing.



> A person who maintains large numbers of breeding females and/or stud dogs and who breeds more than three litters of puppies a year from the bitches or who provides stud services for more than fifteen bitches a year


This is just one of the many different definitions for "commerical breeder".... and reading this definition I know there is reputable breeders that fall under this definition. 
IMO It basically comes down to what your personal opinion is regarding the breeder you deal with.


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