# Moyen vs standard



## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

When I first started looking at poodles and joined this forum I was looking for info regarding moyens but as I've thought about things and learned more about standards, I'm now thinking a standard would be good. Many of you have mentioned in various threads breeders who have "lines that run on the small end" of the standard spectrum. Can you direct me to some of these breeders? And when you all, who really know the breed much better than I do, refer to "small", what should I expect in the height/weight ranges?

Thanks for all I continue to learn here!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Our girls are generally about 22-23" in height and 38-44 pounds. Boys are heavier and taller.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Lily is a smaller standard at 22 3/4 inches and about 36 pounds. If you tell us where you are you should get more of a response about particular breeders.


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

We live in Oregon but travel a lot in our RV so anywhere west of the Mississippi River could work. I'm not stuck on a particular color but love the blues, silvers and cafe au laits!


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

Thanks for starting this thread, and while for you I think its great hearing about location specific breeders of smaller standards will be a great help, I'd love to hear about any breeders that aim their programs towards producing smaller standards. There are so few that I've seen, other than those who are producing "Moyens" and as you've seen from the other Moyen threads, not many are considered "Reputable". Breeding MPoos to SPoos, Spoos to Moyens, Moyens to Mpoos in the short term is NOT going to give you a real Moyen. Eventually in a long breeding program including Mpoos, Standards could produce a true Moyen line, but that would take a knowledgeable, disciplined breeder and years and a large amount of puppies to do.

But I'd love to hear of any reputable North American Small Standard Breeders. I know at some point, I'd love to have a Lily sized Spoo, possibly for my wife's dog (She's 4'11). Looking forward to hearing everyones suggestions and thanks again LoriG for starting the thread!

-Dan & QUinn


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## hopetocurl (Jan 8, 2014)

Mahlon said:


> Thanks for starting this thread, and while for you I think its great hearing about location specific breeders of smaller standards will be a great help, I'd love to hear about any breeders that aim their programs towards producing smaller standards. There are so few that I've seen, other than those who are producing "Moyens" and as you've seen from the other Moyen threads, not many are considered "Reputable". Breeding MPoos to SPoos, Spoos to Moyens, Moyens to Mpoos in the short term is NOT going to give you a real Moyen. Eventually in a long breeding program including Mpoos, Standards could produce a true Moyen line, but that would take a knowledgeable, disciplined breeder and years and a large amount of puppies to do.
> 
> But I'd love to hear of any reputable North American Small Standard Breeders. I know at some point, I'd love to have a Lily sized Spoo, possibly for my wife's dog (She's 4'11). Looking forward to hearing everyones suggestions and thanks again LoriG for starting the thread!
> 
> -Dan & QUinn


Mahlon, any woman that's 4'11" needs a toy. Ask me how I know.


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## Mahlon (Jun 8, 2014)

hopetocurl said:


> Mahlon, any woman that's 4'11" needs a toy. Ask me how I know.


LOL Hopetocurl! And I've tried, trust me I've tried! But sometimes logic and ration don't work on my little fireball of a spouse, and she's got her heart set on a SPoo, and a large one at that lol. I'm trying to convince her to take a solid look at the oversized minis, and small standards. Quinn right now is about 41lbs and 22" at the withers, and I keep saying, isn't she a great size right now  

And I love toy poodles too, I've had two before an apricot male, and a red female both around 4-4.5 lbs, and I've always told my wife, if she wants a housecat, she's getting a toy poodle instead! (Due to my allergies, cats are the worst for me indoors, I do love outdoor cats though).

So its still a work in progress, we'll see  And thank you for the comment and it made me smile,

-Dan & Quin n


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I have found the basic nature of Toys, Minis and spoos to be different. Spoos are much more self motivated. Very much a mind of their own. Not to mean, that they will not train or be good companions, for they can do both well. A spoo that is well ballenced and happy will carry its tail and head high anywhere. Grace is 24" square and 57lbs at 22 months. In Australia this is a little small. (All things are bigger and better in OZ, like Texas. In Oz we have cattle ranches bigger than Texas LOL but true) Her legs are like steel springs and she is a ball of muscle. I often wince when I see her land from a 6ft jump. I just can't imagine 57lb landing on those legs, without injury, but she does it time and time again, with ease. I almost got a Mini but now I would never have anything but a spoo. But she's no lap dog and even when she was a tiny puppy, I would not allow her in my lap. I knew she would want to be there when she grew.
Eric
See:

http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member...-red-moyen-will-my-first-poo.html#post1545553


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Average height for a bitch In my neck of the woods would be 21-23 inches. 24 or 25 Id consider to be a fairly tall bitch. A small bitch would be 20 or under Id say. Dogs are generally larger and Id say 23 or under would be small. I think 24-25 would be pretty average and 26 and up I would consider to be a tall dog.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I take it you will be having a puppy. If you look at adult (over 2+1/2 y/o) Be aware that de-sexed-early dogs, grow their long leg bones, longer and will be taller. This is considered not to be a good thing for their health. Good luck. Sometimes it is better to go for the best bred dogs irrespective of size. An inch or two is not really noticed. Also very tall spoos tend to have more joint problems (expensive at the Vets and painfull) For this reason European breeders have set the height goals lower
Eric


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> I take it you will be having a puppy. If you look at adult (over 2+1/2 y/o) Be aware that de-sexed-early dogs, grow their long leg bones, longer and will be taller. This is considered not to be a good thing for their health. Good luck. Sometimes it is better to go for the best bred dogs irrespective of size. An inch or two is not really noticed. Also very tall spoos tend to have more joint problems (expensive at the Vets and painfull) For this reason European breeders have set the height goals lower
> Eric


This is pretty much what we decided...started out wanting a Moyen and ended up with a wonderful Spoo because we decided that if we could compromise on size we had an easier time of finding a dog that met our requirements. Hans is 15 months and about 24 inches and 48lbs. I don't feel like he's overly huge.


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

My girl is about 21 1/2 inches tall and 37 pounds which is about the same size as her sister, mother and grandmother. Her breeder says this is just about the perfect size for a bitch in her mind. Her males however range in size from 23 to 27 inches tall and can weigh from 50 pounds up. So sex plays a big role in how big your future puppy will get. 

My trio show how the different sizes look compared to each other. Phoenix the brown is about 24 inches tall, Monster in the middle is about 26 inches and little Jazz at the end is as mentioned before not quite 22 inches. 

leave me out of it 8-27-2014 2-37-40 PM by spindledreams, on Flickr


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## cmarrie (Sep 17, 2014)

Speaking as a 5ft tall woman, I love that my dog will be big (last week he looked about 23 inches tall and 44lb....at 6 months old). Just last night I got really excited when I realized I didn't have to lean down to pet him when we are both standing anymore.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

cmarrie said:


> Speaking as a 5ft tall woman, I love that my dog will be big (last week he looked about 23 inches tall and 44lb....at 6 months old). Just last night I got really excited when I realized I didn't have to lean down to pet him when we are both standing anymore.


It's funny - I'm 5'6" but I was just saying how handy it is that Hans is tall enough that I can reach his collar or harness without bending down if I need to hold him without a leash. My chow was a lot heavier but not nearly as tall.


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