# Vienna's littermate bloated



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Not the kind of news you wanted to hear but forewarned is forearmed. How linked is bloating to heredity? As a large dog she is at risk but does this amp up her risk factor dramatically? That is great that you can keep tabs on her littermates. With my Aussie there was no history of bloat that I knew of in his line but I always did what I could - raised his water and food bowls and a made him have a bit of quiet time after eating. I don't know if those are urban myths or not but it made me feel better. Try not to worry too much.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I actually heard that raised water/food dishes attributed to bloat? Who knows really though.

Just heard from his owner, he made it through the night and is walking a little.

And from friends that I've known dogs to have bloated, and breeders who have had bloated dogs.. it really seems like it can be hereditary.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I heard raised dishes lessen the risk, then heard it makes the risk greater. Just like this, nobody really knows what causes it or if it is hereditary. The only thing that is known for certain is, Spoos are at risk just because of their build.

Having seen Thinker go through two bloat episodes I think you'd be wise to tack Vienna. It was by far the most terrifying thing I have been through in dogs. It came on without warning and the dog is literally writhing in agony. I am recommending tacking to all of my puppy buyers now. I do not want to think of one more dog or one more owner going through that.

Glad her brother is on the mend. Good thoughts for his continued recovery!


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Yeah I'm highly considering getting it done, though I'm trying to think of any other surgery she needs while she's under, like repairing her herniated belly button.


----------



## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

The raised dishes have been warned against Kat , they now know that this does not work ....... Please do consider getting her tacked ... But in the meantime try Prozyme and perhaps staying away from grains... Keep anti gas and tums on hand ... Maybe moving more towards a raw diet.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Yeah I'm highly considering getting it done, though I'm trying to think of any other surgery she needs while she's under, like repairing her herniated belly button.


You may as well get everything done at once. Every anesthesia poses a risk. Good plan. Celtickitti told me to get GasX and always have it on hand. She came onto FB and helped me when Thinker has his first episode. She is a pharmacist and the owner of a dog who bloated. In the event (God forbid) that you ever need it, you just snip the ends of the capsules and begin squeezing the contents onto the tongue until you see some relief...all of this while you are calling the vet, driving to the vet...you get the idea. Apparently you cannot OD them on the active ingredient. We began with five, then four more 10 minutes later, then four more ten minutes after that. Thinker rallied entirely, then five weeks later it happened again. This time nothing we did helped.


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Hopefully, even with the issues in her relatives, all will be well with Vienna - especially since you'll be keeping an eagle eye on her, I'm sure!

I did have Lucy tacked when she went in for her spay. I'm glad I did it and I'll do it with any other bloat prone breed puppy I have spayed/neutered in the future. I know it doesn't prevent bloat - if it's going to happen, it's going to happen; but if it can prevent the stomach from twisting it's 110% worth it!

Good luck and wishing future good health for you and your spoos!!

Barb


----------



## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> You may as well get everything done at once. Every anesthesia poses a risk. Good plan. Celtickitti told me to get GasX and always have it on hand. She came onto FB and helped me when Thinker has his first episode. She is a pharmacist and the owner of a dog who bloated. In the event (God forbid) that you ever need it, you just snip the ends of the capsules and begin squeezing the contents onto the tongue until you see some relief...all of this while you are calling the vet, driving to the vet...you get the idea. Apparently you cannot OD them on the active ingredient. We began with five, then four more 10 minutes later, then four more ten minutes after that. Thinker rallied entirely, then five weeks later it happened again. This time nothing we did helped.


Hopefully this was reported to the Health Registry as this dog sired several litters. Every little bit helps......


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

He sired 29 litters, but I did not legally own him, so cannot report it! I'd love to, but it is out of my hands.


----------



## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Perhaps you could let the legal owner know ... After all he did sire 30 litters I thought the vet could give you a certificate for the Health registry ? So it takes a legal owner and a vet correct ? Who Was he owned by ? His last litter was sired in 09 that is only two years ago ... How is that possible.. Just wondering .....According the PHR ....


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

His legal owner was notified that night. His legal owner was his co-breeder. Yes, I could easily get a certificate from my vet. 

When my Mother passed away, due to an agreement she had with her co-owner, his full ownership was transferred to the other party (I have this same arrangement for Betty-Jo, Jenny, Cayenne and Quincy with Trillium, in the event of my death). Because of the dog's age, the other owner decided to do semen collections, and to the best of my knowledge there is still semen being offered for sale. I have also been informed by several different vets and breeders, that bloat which occurs at old age is not near the threat to the offspring of the dog who bloated as it would be if he bloated at say five years of age. If you followed the posts when Thinker died, the vet informed me prior to me deciding to euthanize him that she felt a very large mass on Thinker's spleen, which may or may not have contributed to him bloating in the first place. This information was what made me decide to have him put to sleep. At thirteen and a half, even if he did recover from this episode, he most likely would have had another in short order, or could have died from a ruptured spleen at any moment.


----------



## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> His legal owner was notified that night. His legal owner was his co-breeder. Yes, I could easily get a certificate from my vet.
> 
> When my Mother passed away, due to an agreement she had with her co-owner, his full ownership was transferred to the other party (I have this same arrangement for Betty-Jo, Jenny, Cayenne and Quincy with Trillium, in the event of my death). Because of the dog's age, the other owner decided to do semen collections, and to the best of my knowledge there is still semen being offered for sale. I have also been informed by several different vets and breeders, that bloat which occurs at old age is not near the threat to the offspring of the dog who bloated as it would be if he bloated at say five years of age. If you followed the posts when Thinker died, the vet informed me prior to me deciding to euthanize him that she felt a very large mass on Thinker's spleen, which may or may not have contributed to him bloating in the first place. This information was what made me decide to have him put to sleep. At thirteen and a half, even if he did recover from this episode, he most likely would have had another in short order, or could have died from a ruptured spleen at any moment.


No I am sorry but I did not follow all those threads..I know this had to be terrible for you and I am sorry for the loss..... His pedigree is very old I agree. Well you did all that you could do . However it still should be reported even if he was 13... Too bad his breeder does not agree...


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I agree. But how she chooses to do things is none of my business.


----------



## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh Im so sorry to hear that news..I dont think Stella's line has bloat in it necessarily but when I got her at 7 the breeder had her spayed and tacked for us. Its a scary condition for sure.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

And it is ever more frightening because nobody seems to know if it REALLY is familial or if it is just because of their build. After experiencing it, I hope to never see it again in my lifetime. 49 years surrounded by this breed, and fortunate enough to never have seen it until this year. And it is bloody horrible! I am so glad Stella is tacked and happy Vienna will be! And I will keep advocating that anyone who buys a pup from me does it too.


----------



## MamaTiff (Sep 23, 2011)

Bloat scares me so much. It took me 5 years to get Darby. She is my everything. I don't know what I'd do if anything happened to her. Unfortunately she's a rescue and I don't know her lines. 

What does this surgery approximately cost? How bad is the recovery?


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I was quoted $600-$900 for a tack.. yikes.


----------



## MamaTiff (Sep 23, 2011)

Holy cow......yikes is right. :ahhhhh:


----------



## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> I was quoted $600-$900 for a tack.. yikes.


Yikes is RIGHT!!!! Lucy's tack was an additional fee on her routine ovariohysterectomy but the whole she-bang (spay, gastropexy, including all associated anesthesia, antibiotics, pain meds, pre-surgical bloodwork, etc.) was less than $400!!

But $600 - $900??? OUCH!!


----------



## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

Fluffyspoos,
Do you know if anything contributed to the bloat - such as heavy exercise or big meal?


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Buster is a very tall, very boney dog. He's thin and 30" tall at the withers, I think that contributed to it.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

This is where things get tricky. Perhaps bloat has a genetic component perhaps not. In the situation with Thinker I don't think it is irresponsible to keep using his seman. The factors of his age and possible mass combine to make the incidence of bloat much less alarming to me. If bloat is more a reflection of size the offspring can be bred down. I think a tendency to stop breeding any dog with bloat in the line is an overreaction. It sounds like Thinker was an outstanding dog - what a shame it would be to lose his bloodline. It would be nice if the breeder put this info on the registry but does the registry enter mitigating factors like age and a possible mass? If not I can understand the reluctance but I too wish this was entered onto the registry. Fluffyspoos it might be worth price shopping around vets with a good reputation because that price is very steep.


----------



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> This is where things get tricky. Perhaps bloat has a genetic component perhaps not. In the situation with Thinker I don't think it is irresponsible to keep using his seman. The factors of his age and possible mass combine to make the incidence of bloat much less alarming to me. If bloat is more a reflection of size the offspring can be bred down. I think a tendency to stop breeding any dog with bloat in the line is an overreaction. It sounds like Thinker was an outstanding dog - what a shame it would be to lose his bloodline. It would be nice if the breeder put this info on the registry but does the registry enter mitigating factors like age and a possible mass? If not I can understand the reluctance but I too wish this was entered onto the registry. Fluffyspoos it might be worth price shopping around vets with a good reputation because that price is very steep.[/QUOT\
> 
> Your thoughts are my thoughts exactly. Thinker produced countless champions, obedience champions, agility champions, field champions, and his grandkids and great grandkids are carrying on the tradition. His line has incredible longevity and mostly great health. His mother only passed away less than a year before he did. I am in contact with people all over the world who have his kids and grandkids, dogs who are the picture of health and intelligence. PRA does not list any mitigating factors.
> 
> I agree too that I would shop around. I realize Vegas is already spayed but to tack her should not cost more than a spay would. Here, I believe if you have it done at the time of spay, it is an additional $100 or so over and above the cost to spay, which is about $300.


----------



## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

UGH - I think we all worry about these things in all our dogs. And to hear that a littermate(s) has been affected. :angry:
I would shop around on price, I know I am. The quotes I am getting for Kai are in the same ballpark. $600 plus and then his neuter......I plan to go inland and check some prices. A 30 minute travel shouldn't be too hard on him.


----------



## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

plumcrazy said:


> Yikes is RIGHT!!!! Lucy's tack was an additional fee on her routine ovariohysterectomy but the whole she-bang (spay, gastropexy, including all associated anesthesia, antibiotics, pain meds, pre-surgical bloodwork, etc.) was less than $400!!
> 
> But $600 - $900??? OUCH!!


OK, I realize that this is a slightly older post, but since I'll be getting another SPoo soon I've been contemplating the idea of getting her tacked when she's spayed.

My last boy bloated when he was around 3yrs old and THANK HEAVEN I was familiar with his normal behavior so I caught it really early and he never torsioned. The vet decompressed multiple times that night, and then after a few weeks, when he had healed up a bit, I had him tacked at a local emergency/specialist vet hospital. As others have said, it is super scary and NOT something I ever again want to experience.

So, I've started getting quotes from local vets and I've gotten figures as high as $2300 from MedVet, which is where my boy had his Gastropexy gone and they have an excellent reputation, but that fee doesn't even include the initial consult or things like antibiotics and/or pain meds that might be prescribed! I don't remember it being that expensive 8 years ago.

So far my best option seems to be Ohio State Vet Hospital (also has an excellent reputation) which quoted me a flat fee of $550 for the Gastropexy and apparently they throw in a Spay/Neuter for "free". She said that the procedure actually costs more, but they write off anything over $550 as a "teaching opportunity" for their vet students. 

The biggest challenge with OSU is that they don't let you make payments, they don't accept Care Credit, and you have to pay up front for the procedure.

Its always something! :dazed:


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Buster is at home healing now 

And thanks for the extra post, Jill. Maybe I'll see what schools around here do about it.


----------

