# Size



## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Mehpenn said:


> For toys, is there a general weight/height guideline for acceptable breeding? (As in how small is too small)?


I personally do not think there is a to small for a toy. I personally prefer 5 pounds or under. I do think the owner has to realize what a 2.5 pound can do compared to a 5 or 6 pound. I do not think small children should have any dog under 5 to 6 pound, and then it would be supervision. I find the smaller they are the more they look to you for protection, from anything or anyone.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> For toys, is there a general weight/height guideline for acceptable breeding? (As in how small is too small)?[/
> 
> My breeder will only breed in -size to slightly oversize females to in-size to slightly undersized males. That is why I feel very confident that as tiny as Trulee is that she will be a healthy, well proportioned poodle - she came out of healthy, well proportioned, full sized parents! If she has a dog who requires a c-section, they get spayed at the same time, end of story. She does not feel that it is right to breed a dog who cannot free whelp, and of course the smaller a dog is, the more likely that is to happen, so she is not going to breed a dog that is obviously high risk due to her size!
> But as I am sure you know, there are breeders who purposely breed for tinies, often including ill-proportioned dogs carrying diseases such as dwarfism in pursuit of creating even tinier creatures, and I think that they just don't care how small the dogs that they breed are. They can incorporate the cost of c-sections and losing dogs into their breeding program because they charge a fortune for the ones that they manage to keep alive and sell.
> So to answer your question more directly, for females 10-11 inches, 5 1/2 - 7 pounds. Males, maybe 9 1/2 - 10", 5-6 pounds. Pounds of course will depend upon the dog's build.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

glorybeecosta said:


> I personally do not think there is a to small for a toy. I personally prefer 5 pounds or under. I do think the owner has to realize what a 2.5 pound can do compared to a 5 or 6 pound. I do not think small children should have any dog under 5 to 6 pound, and then it would be supervision. I find the smaller they are the more they look to you for protection, from anything or anyone.



Agreed, but I don't think that the question was how small a good pet can be, the question was how small a dog can be safely bred.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Height for conformation is 10", max. Don't know about weight.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> Height for conformation is 10", max. Don't know about weight.



There isn't any weight requirement in poodles, I was just saying about what the average weight for that size would be.
Because if you had a very finely built 10" Toy bitch who only weighed four pounds, that still wouldn't be a good candidate for breeding despite being the full height that a Toy Should be.


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Mehpenn said:
> 
> 
> > For toys, is there a general weight/height guideline for acceptable breeding? (As in how small is too small)?[/
> ...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Granberry said:


> Tiny Poodles said:
> 
> 
> > I am not a breeder, but from what I've read, it isn't safe to breed a female under 5 pounds. I actually think this is a pretty good answer.
> ...


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Granberry said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you, I do believe that my breeder is very ethical in her breeding practices.
> ...


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Granberry said:


> Tiny Poodles said:
> 
> 
> > The breeding size information you gave was sound.
> ...


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Granberry said:
> 
> 
> > My breeder is highly ethical! Please stop following me around with this harassment/ bullying behavior! Stop threatening me!
> ...


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## someday (May 3, 2016)

Can we go one thread without beating somebody up? Everyone should just drop it. You're all adults, aren't you? Good grief. Whatever your stance on Dalin, just keep it to yourself in threads where that discussion is irrelevant. Do we need to be told "leave it" and go without a biscuit from Mom?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Kassie said:


> Tiny Poodles said:
> 
> 
> > This has become exhausting. I have been monitoring Tiny Poodles postings on her new baby to come. I wasvery disheartened to find the history of this breeder. In every grain of news, there is always some truth buried. Everybody can purchase a puppy from whatever breeder they desire. But, it seems a bit unethical to completely bulldoze over everybody to cheer lead a particular breeder and take such exception. I wish this would stop. It is ruining many posts.
> ...


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Ok. Um. I'm not sure what Ive missed or if I even care to know...sooooo.... back to our regularly scheduled program....


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh how nice of you to assume the role of "monitoring me" - are you officially Plum's assistant or are you self appointed?
> 
> Sorry, but as long as Granberry and company keep following me and attacking me for my admiration of a breeder whom I actually know and respect then I sure will continue to protest! ... My only regret is that I did not credit Lynn for her words of wisdom concerning the ethical breeding of toy poodles in my original post - I will make sure not to make that mistake again!


1. Pause. Take a breath. Re-read what Kassie said, and simply respond. Kassie is one of the more civil folks in here, and you could learn a lot from her.
2. I simply tried to _compliment the advice you had given because I could without arguing_. I wanted to show you that we can interact neutrally on the vast majority of topics. A response such as "thank you", or no response at all would have been fine. But you then had to inject bait in there accepting my compliment on your breeders' behalf and implying I was complimenting your breeder's practices which you know I can't in good conscience let people believe is the case. Sigh. It is exhausting.


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

Mehpenn said:


> Ok. Um. I'm not sure what Ive missed or if I even care to know...sooooo.... back to our regularly scheduled program....


Haha, love your humor! I know there are actual breeders of toy poodles on here who will wake up and answer your question with their experiences:

1. In y'all's experience, it is true to breed s bitch that weighs at least 5 pounds?
2. Is it okay to breed them smaller?
3. Is it okay to breed very undersized males to normal-sized bitches to try to get smaller ones?
4. What specific proportions should you try to keep intact, i.e., never trade leg length for lower weight? 

Yeah, I'm not a poodle breeder, so there are probably better questions. Can some of the breeders help our new friend out?

Mehpenn: Please feel free to correct the questions or add more of your own! We are here to help!


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

First let me say I don't know that I do, or do not, have intentions of breeding poodles. 
I've bred German Shepherds for years, and know the amount of work, care and love that goes into it. It's an investment not only financially but also mentally and physically. It is something my family has discussed. It is not something we have decided to invest in at this time. 
All questions are purely for educational purposes and my own information for potential future reference. 

My questions specifically reference toys, as that's what I have. 
Having dealt with German Shepherds in the breeding aspect, which is considerably more black and white in terms of genetics, size, breeding and what is produced, I am intrigued by the intricacies and level of research, thought, planning, etc that goes into breeding these toy dogs. 
*And by "black and white" I mean the knowledge of what will be produced in any given litter based on the combined genetics of the lineage from which the litter is being produced, compared to the complications of unknown color/pattern genetics and various varieties of the poodle breed. 

One question is: how small is too small to breed? 
I've read that five pounds is the most accepted and suitable cutoff. If so, how do breeders continually produce their "teacup" and "tiny toy" poodles that weigh two pounds or less?


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> First let me say I don't know that I do, or do not, have intentions of breeding poodles.
> I've bred German Shepherds for years, and know the amount of work, care and love that goes into it. It's an investment not only financially but also mentally and physically. It is something my family has discussed. It is not something we have decided to invest in at this time.
> All questions are purely for educational purposes and my own information for potential future reference.
> 
> ...




It's my understanding that veterinarians will strongly chastised the breeding of a tiny dog, no matter the breed. I had a 3 lb chihuahua once and the vet instructed me to spay her because she was too small to breed. Also, the very small may be subject to health issues and always at high risk of injury. There are some breeders all over the internet that showcase breeding teacups etc. But the reality is to take a look at the breeding stock and then look at the standard for the breed. Many of those tiny toy dog breeders have stepped away from breeding up to the breed standard. Confirmation, health and temperament may suffer. It's a great risk to the animal and purchaser to pursue such tiny breedings. Out of standard breeding, a tiny runt can be born. That would be a natural born smaller puppy that may or may not reach its standard size. 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Granberry said:


> 1. Pause. Take a breath. Re-read what Kassie said, and simply respond. Kassie is one of the more civil folks in here, and you could learn a lot from her.
> 
> 2. I simply tried to _compliment the advice you had given because I could without arguing_. I wanted to show you that we can interact neutrally on the vast majority of topics. A response such as "thank you", or no response at all would have been fine. But you then had to inject bait in there accepting my compliment on your breeders' behalf and implying I was complimenting your breeder's practices which you know I can't in good conscience let people believe is the case. Sigh. It is exhausting.



1. It is not a compliment when someone edits your post before voicing their approval
2. Clearly the only way that we are going to peacefully co-exist on this forum is if we agree to never, respond to each other under any circumstances.
3. As long as you feel that it is your duty to belittle my girls breeder, whom I respect and admire, there will be war.
I will not "roll over" and allow you to denigrate her ever. 
This discord began with YOUR ARRIVAL, so you are the one who should end it.


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## Granberry (Nov 17, 2014)

TP, would you accept a quick PM from me? That way we could take this off the boards. I promise, I'm a nice PMer.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> First let me say I don't know that I do, or do not, have intentions of breeding poodles.
> I've bred German Shepherds for years, and know the amount of work, care and love that goes into it. It's an investment not only financially but also mentally and physically. It is something my family has discussed. It is not something we have decided to invest in at this time.
> All questions are purely for educational purposes and my own information for potential future reference.
> 
> ...



Breeders who continuously breed "teacups" are not doing it for the welfare or betterment of the breed, they are doing it for profit, and they are charging a fortune for the ill-conforming and frequently very unhealthy puppies that they produce, so they just consider the c-sections, and the loss of life as part of the cost of doing business!
But sometimes the right genes get together, and a tiny one like my Trulee appears out of a breeding of two health tested , full size show dogs, and that, in my opinion is something that is worth waiting for! You might have to wait for years, or you just might get lucky pretty quickly (it looks like there is a white girl as tiny as Trulee about a month behind her), but I have been waiting 30 years for Trulee - much as my heart has been aching for her, I would never, ever go with a breeder who intentionally breeds for tinies because I don't agree with their breeding practices, and I don't like what they produce.
And by the way, as an added bonus, a reputable show breeder who just happens to produce a tiny out of full sized show dogs usually does not charge you thousands of dollars extra for it, it will typically be the same price of any of their other puppies!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Granberry said:


> TP, would you accept a quick PM from me? That way we could take this off the boards. I promise, I'm a nice PMer.



Sure, I am always open to civil conversation.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

This is hilarious to me. I don't know about others but this is making my great night even better got some hunting in with the rotties finished cleaning kennels and tiring dogs out a whole hour early everyone is tucked in nice and happy snoozing away with their blankies. Check on here happen to see a post about size thought I see maybe learn what is other people's opinions on size for breeding I know mines which is never breed a female under 5 pounds but thought I check in what others thought haven't learned much of anything except that TP can be a giant hypocrite and try and question my boys breeder when hers is very questionable it seems but I don't care to each his own do what's best for you and your household. Mehpenn I totally get where you're coming from breeding larger dogs like Rottweilers and German Shepards you never think twice about breeding a male who's larger to your female if he meets your criteria perfectly. Especially with this dumb rule about not mixing certain colors because it'll cause you to get incorrect colors on their points. Then you have to think about not introducing fading genes if you don't want bad blacks or Browns or reds. I have plans for next year to breed a female rottie who at the moment looks like at the most is only going to get to 85-90 lbs to a male who looks like he's going to be at the top of standard ranging 120-130lbs because genetically, temperament, and confirmation wise they are perfect for each other. I'm not going to even think twice about the size of the male. Same with my dachshunds I've taken a 5 lb girl and bred her to a 8lb boy with no problems she whelped the litter naturally and took care of all the puppies by herself.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> This is hilarious to me. I don't know about others but this is making my great night even better got some hunting in with the rotties finished cleaning kennels and tiring dogs out a whole hour early everyone is tucked in nice and happy snoozing away with their blankies. Check on here happen to see a post about size thought I see maybe learn what is other people's opinions on size for breeding I know mines which is never breed a female under 5 pounds but thought I check in what others thought haven't learned much of anything except that TP can be a giant hypocrite and try and question my boys breeder when hers is very questionable it seems but I don't care to each his own do what's best for you and your household. Mehpenn I totally get where you're coming from breeding larger dogs like Rottweilers and German Shepards you never think twice about breeding a male who's larger to your female if he meets your criteria perfectly. Especially with this dumb rule about not mixing certain colors because it'll cause you to get incorrect colors on their points. Then you have to think about not introducing fading genes if you don't want bad blacks or Browns or reds. I have plans for next year to breed a female rottie who at the moment looks like at the most is only going to get to 85-90 lbs to a male who looks like he's going to be at the top of standard ranging 120-130lbs because genetically, temperament, and confirmation wise they are perfect for each other. I'm not going to even think twice about the size of the male. Same with my dachshunds I've taken a 5 lb girl and bred her to a 8lb boy with no problems she whelped the litter naturally and took care of all the puppies by herself.



If you can stop being so defensive and angry for a moment and listen, I will tell you - ALL breeders should be questioned. I understand that my breeder might seem questionable to some on the surface, but upon close examination, her breeding is outstanding, checks all the boxes and then some. If your breeder is the same, then great. If YOU, with plans to be a Toy Poodle Breeder is the same, then that is great too. But you should understand why the info that you provided raised questions. If you don't understand that, then the right answers probably are not there.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I got Cayenne because she was to small to breed, she was 3 pounds at 18 months old. I also have been told when breeding toy poodles the males should be smaller than the female. Here is an interesting link 

Breeding Poodles | Poodle Information Center


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Can someone explain the reason males should be smaller? 
Is it due to actual birthing difficulties (ex: larger male = larger puppies= difficulty passing through birth canal)? 

Is it due to proportional issues in the puppies themselves as they grow (ex: larger male=longer legs= puppy with dam sized body and sires long legs)? 

And when you say "smaller" male, how much smaller is necessary? Would one the same size or even half a pound larger be an issue and absolutely not be bred?


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

King Louie said:


> Mehpenn I totally get where you're coming from breeding larger dogs like Rottweilers and German Shepards you never think twice about breeding a male who's larger to your female if he meets your criteria perfectly. Especially with this dumb rule about not mixing certain colors because it'll cause you to get incorrect colors on their points. Then you have to think about not introducing fading genes if you don't want bad blacks or Browns or reds. I have plans for next year to breed a female rottie who at the moment looks like at the most is only going to get to 85-90 lbs to a male who looks like he's going to be at the top of standard ranging 120-130lbs because genetically, temperament, and confirmation wise they are perfect for each other. I'm not going to even think twice about the size of the male. Same with my dachshunds I've taken a 5 lb girl and bred her to a 8lb boy with no problems she whelped the litter naturally and took care of all the puppies by herself.


I try to not breed excessively huge differences. The bitch I just retired is only 55#. She literally met standard height by 1/4". So any male I bred her to would just about have to be larger just to meet the breed standard. But because she's petite, we stayed on the low side of the standard for the males. 
And I knew based on her color, her sire and dams colors and that of the dog I was breeding her to, exactly what to expect in her puppies. There was none of this unknown genetics, fading genes, careful pairing to ensure black points. 
Breeding poodles (carefully and correctly) is certainly scientifically challenging!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> Can someone explain the reason males should be smaller?
> Is it due to actual birthing difficulties (ex: larger male = larger puppies= difficulty passing through birth canal)?
> 
> Is it due to proportional issues in the puppies themselves as they grow (ex: larger male=longer legs= puppy with dam sized body and sires long legs)?
> ...



I believe that since they often use oversized females for ease of whelping, that they use smaller males to bring the size down - the goal would not be to produce a litter of oversize puppies.
But although I know that my breeder does have some mama's who are oversize, she has told me that primarily she breeds "what I want to what I want" - both about the same size.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I believe that since they often use oversized females for ease of whelping, that they use smaller males to bring the size down - the goal would not be to produce a litter of oversize puppies.
> But although I know that my breeder does have some mama's who are oversize, she has told me that primarily she breeds "what I want to what I want" - both about the same size.



So, if the male is 6-7 pounds and the female is 5-6 pounds, would that be a no-no?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> So, if the male is 6-7 pounds and the female is 5-6 pounds, would that be a no-no?



Honestly, I think that a knowledgeable breeder would go more by structure than by weight.
Is a 200 pound woman who is 5'5"any "bigger than a 125 pound woman who is 5'5"?
And too they will go by what the dog is known to produce. Lynn has told me in the past that Trulee's sire produces exactly the size that he is bred to - so it was a real shock that Trulee appeared, because her mama sure isn't a 2-3 pounder. They can only take their best educated guess, it is really far from an exact science!


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> Can someone explain the reason males should be smaller?
> Is it due to actual birthing difficulties (ex: larger male = larger puppies= difficulty passing through birth canal)?
> 
> Is it due to proportional issues in the puppies themselves as they grow (ex: larger male=longer legs= puppy with dam sized body and sires long legs)?
> ...


 Basically with toy breeds breeding a male who is drastically bigger than the female can cause puppies that are too big to be whelped naturally. Ex. A 10" 7lb male breeding with a 6" 4lb female can cause problems. But a 10" 7lb male breeding with a 81/2" 6lb female will be fine it won't be the end of the world. It's suggested to use a smaller male "to insure puppies won't be too big" even then you can get larger puppies and mom will need a c-section. The way a lot of people try to word it like using a smaller male is the answer and there's no risk for puppies being too big which is a lie mom's genes still contributes to the size of puppies even her diet contributes over feeding can cause large puppies to much calcium during pregnancy can cause whelping issues. I find knowing the lines is way more help than just looking at the size of the 2 dogs you have. If the mom of the female has to get c-sections or there's a history of them in her lines there's a very big chance her daughters will need to get them as well to whelp it can and usually is hereditary.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> King Louie said:
> 
> 
> > Mehpenn I totally get where you're coming from breeding larger dogs like Rottweilers and German Shepards you never think twice about breeding a male who's larger to your female if he meets your criteria perfectly. Especially with this dumb rule about not mixing certain colors because it'll cause you to get incorrect colors on their points. Then you have to think about not introducing fading genes if you don't want bad blacks or Browns or reds. I have plans for next year to breed a female rottie who at the moment looks like at the most is only going to get to 85-90 lbs to a male who looks like he's going to be at the top of standard ranging 120-130lbs because genetically, temperament, and confirmation wise they are perfect for each other. I'm not going to even think twice about the size of the male. Same with my dachshunds I've taken a 5 lb girl and bred her to a 8lb boy with no problems she whelped the litter naturally and took care of all the puppies by herself.
> ...


 I know it's a bit of a learning curve with my Rotties as far as color goes I just want to avoid the dreaded white patch other than that black/tan black/mahogany doesn't matter they can breed together. I never even think about it when their born with pink noses and paw pads I know for sure it'll turn black at some point. Now with the poodles if I happen to get a white puppy I'm going to be watching it's points like crazy waiting and hoping they'll turn black. Then the fading gene they say be careful introducing them to your line and they should be avoided last I checked there isn't even a test for it yet so no matter how careful you are it still can get introduced in someway. Then you have to decide will I dabble in Parti colors or be strictly solid colors. What colors do I prefer more if you prefer solid red and solid brown or solid brown and solid white you can't breed Browns to anything except for other Browns or blacks or otherwise you risks bad points. So now you have to ask yourself how much do you really like brown. Black can breed with every color but it's just so boring to me with white there's a risk of introducing fading genes. I feel like I'm in science class again every time I think about all their color rules and the genes they can introduce to your lines.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

There was a good article, really a Toy breeder discussion in the most recent issue of Poodle Variety. A lot of civil disagreement too as to whether the Toys of 40 years ago are different looking than those of today, the self whelping issue, even a few comments that if judges got out wickets some Champions wouldn't be. I believe a Westminster BOB back in the day had already had a litter of puppies. Does that ever happen now? It just seems so hard to me to breed all that is a great Poodle in 10".


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mfmst said:


> There was a good article, really a Toy breeder discussion in the most recent issue of Poodle Variety. A lot of civil disagreement too as to whether the Toys of 40 years ago are different looking than those of today, the self whelping issue, even a few comments that if judges got out wickets some Champions wouldn't be. I believe a Westminster BOB back in the day had already had a litter of puppies. Does that ever happen now? It just seems so hard to me to breed all that is a great Poodle in 10".



That sounds like an interesting article - it isn't online is it?
And oh yeah, it is pretty common knowledge that there are plenty of oversize champions around.
What really amazes me though is that even if the rare judge does get out the wicket and dqs a dog, the same dog can walk in the ring under another judge 15 minutes later and win! The dog show world is a strange one where rules and regs only apply depending upon what day of the week it is and who your friends are!


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Mfmst said:


> There was a good article, really a Toy breeder discussion in the most recent issue of Poodle Variety. A lot of civil disagreement too as to whether the Toys of 40 years ago are different looking than those of today, the self whelping issue, even a few comments that if judges got out wickets some Champions wouldn't be. I believe a Westminster BOB back in the day had already had a litter of puppies. Does that ever happen now? It just seems so hard to me to breed all that is a great Poodle in 10".


I've definitely seen oversized toys in shows. Which I have brought up I can't really fault the breeders showing either when you have a TP that follows the standard and then the judge puts up a 11" or 12" toy what are they to do breed what the standard says but is losing in the ring or breed what wins in the ring. This is the same thing that happened to the bully breed people breeding for what will win in the ring instead of to the standard next thing you know health issues start appearing more frequently. All it really is, is just one persons preference over another. On my search for a girl I ran into so many show breeders that health test and are great but looking at the size 11"-12" is not a toy. They're only registered as toys because the parents are toys it would be great if people could/would register those dogs as miniatures because that is technically what they are even if they're built like a toy once they are over 10" they're technically a miniature. I wish everyone could be on the same page but doesn't seem like it'll be happening soon.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

King Louie said:


> I've definitely seen oversized toys in shows. Which I have brought up I can't really fault the breeders showing either when you have a TP that follows the standard and then the judge puts up a 11" or 12" toy what are they to do breed what the standard says but is losing in the ring or breed what wins in the ring. This is the same thing that happened to the bully breed people breeding for what will win in the ring instead of to the standard next thing you know health issues start appearing more frequently. All it really is, is just one persons preference over another. On my search for a girl I ran into so many show breeders that health test and are great but looking at the size 11"-12" is not a toy. They're only registered as toys because the parents are toys it would be great if people could/would register those dogs as miniatures because that is technically what they are even if they're built like a toy once they are over 10" they're technically a miniature. I wish everyone could be on the same page but doesn't seem like it'll be happening soon.




I believe there is no agreed upon "international measure" and that adds confusion to the breed standard, especially if showing internationally. Also, a puppy in the ring will ideally measure close to its height standard as it will have the greatest movement and presence. That same puppy, once an adult, once it's skeletal frame has more defined muscle and depth, once the top line matures, the height may go over. Now a Champion and in-size as a puppy, becomes oversized as an adult. 


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Kassie said:


> King Louie said:
> 
> 
> > I've definitely seen oversized toys in shows. Which I have brought up I can't really fault the breeders showing either when you have a TP that follows the standard and then the judge puts up a 11" or 12" toy what are they to do breed what the standard says but is losing in the ring or breed what wins in the ring. This is the same thing that happened to the bully breed people breeding for what will win in the ring instead of to the standard next thing you know health issues start appearing more frequently. All it really is, is just one persons preference over another. On my search for a girl I ran into so many show breeders that health test and are great but looking at the size 11"-12" is not a toy. They're only registered as toys because the parents are toys it would be great if people could/would register those dogs as miniatures because that is technically what they are even if they're built like a toy once they are over 10" they're technically a miniature. I wish everyone could be on the same page but doesn't seem like it'll be happening soon.
> ...


That is a really good point about puppy champions maturing and turning out to be oversized. I've heard of people purposely finishing a puppy because they know without a doubt it will grow oversized in fact there's a lady on FB that has a male puppy who is guaranteed to be oversized but she's claiming he's show quality but she only wants him rehomed to someone who will finish him before 1 years old. I wonder why?  I really can't say anything because is this any different than people who will purposely hide faults with the dog's hair? The judges in AKC at least it seems rarely will pick up on it too. I've seen lots of dogs with major faults become ch. just because of who the owner or handler knows. It's really just a giant game of politics and if you don't know how to play it seems like almost a waste of time. Thankfully I've been taken under the wings of people and have been lucky enough not to experience too much of those situations.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

A reputable breeder will know what they are doing and why. 


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> I've definitely seen oversized toys in shows. Which I have brought up I can't really fault the breeders showing either when you have a TP that follows the standard and then the judge puts up a 11" or 12" toy what are they to do breed what the standard says but is losing in the ring or breed what wins in the ring. This is the same thing that happened to the bully breed people breeding for what will win in the ring instead of to the standard next thing you know health issues start appearing more frequently. All it really is, is just one persons preference over another. On my search for a girl I ran into so many show breeders that health test and are great but looking at the size 11"-12" is not a toy. They're only registered as toys because the parents are toys it would be great if people could/would register those dogs as miniatures because that is technically what they are even if they're built like a toy once they are over 10" they're technically a miniature. I wish everyone could be on the same page but doesn't seem like it'll be happening soon.



A toy cannot compete against a mini in the ring - totally different build.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> That is a really good point about puppy champions maturing and turning out to be oversized. I've heard of people purposely finishing a puppy because they know without a doubt it will grow oversized in fact there's a lady on FB that has a male puppy who is guaranteed to be oversized but she's claiming he's show quality but she only wants him rehomed to someone who will finish him before 1 years old. I wonder why?  I really can't say anything because is this any different than people who will purposely hide faults with the dog's hair? The judges in AKC at least it seems rarely will pick up on it too. I've seen lots of dogs with major faults become ch. just because of who the owner or handler knows. It's really just a giant game of politics and if you don't know how to play it seems like almost a waste of time. Thankfully I've been taken under the wings of people and have been lucky enough not to experience too much of those situations.



And how about all of the powder to whiten or darken the coat, color to blacken the nose and white to hide tear stains? That to me is more egregious - size is one thing, but those are pretty significant faults that are passed on from generation to generation.
Then us pet parents are left wondering why our well bred poodle from two black parents is a bad black, or why our white puppy has a pink nose and horrible tear stains!


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> King Louie said:
> 
> 
> > That is a really good point about puppy champions maturing and turning out to be oversized. I've heard of people purposely finishing a puppy because they know without a doubt it will grow oversized in fact there's a lady on FB that has a male puppy who is guaranteed to be oversized but she's claiming he's show quality but she only wants him rehomed to someone who will finish him before 1 years old. I wonder why?
> ...


That is definitely a good point because they are knowingly hiding these traits and then when people go to breed they don't understand where these faults are coming from. I wish there was a way judges would be able to pick up on these tricks people are using I never understood why people find it necessary to die a blue to black if the confirmation is solid it should win but I guess if they know the judge personally prefers a black and they want to win bad enough they'll do what they want. To me judges should put aside their preferences and judge base off standard only. There's just way too many ways to cheat and AKC seems to be the easiest to cheat in. I've heard other Kennel Clubs where the judges are way more hands on.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> That is definitely a good point because they are knowingly hiding these traits and then when people go to breed they don't understand where these faults are coming from. I wish there was a way judges would be able to pick up on these tricks people are using I never understood why people find it necessary to die a blue to black if the confirmation is solid it should win but I guess if they know the judge personally prefers a black and they want to win bad enough they'll do what they want. To me judges should put aside their preferences and judge base off standard only. There's just way too many ways to cheat and AKC seems to be the easiest to cheat in. I've heard other Kennel Clubs where the judges are way more hands on.



That judges know, they choose to ignore it. It is obvious which dogs are full of cosmetics when you see them up close.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

someday said:


> Can we go one thread without beating somebody up? Everyone should just drop it. You're all adults, aren't you? Good grief. Whatever your stance on Dalin, just keep it to yourself in threads where that discussion is irrelevant. Do we need to be told "leave it" and go without a biscuit from Mom?


I'm late coming onto this thread, but boy, I totally agree with you! The whole Dalin thing doesn't need to be brought up in every thread. Now, if TP was purposely promoting Dalin Kennels all the time here on PF, I could see that maybe that wouldn't be right. But I don't see that.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

These over sized dogs are being shown as toys? Could they not be shown as mini? 
I'm STILL thoroughly confused on that aspect. According to the AKC, size variation does not concern them, the dog is the variation it meets at maturity, regardless of the size of the parents. But then you have people who swear there is a difference and toys are toys and minis are minis and standards are standards, as if they are separate breeds and to mix any two is the same as producing a labradoodles. And then there's people who breed whatever to whatever and get what they get.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> A toy cannot compete against a mini in the ring - totally different build.




I question this statement as I have been told that a toy poodle is supposed to look like a small replica of a standard. If this is so, it the toy poodle would be the same build of a standard only diminutive. If this is correct, many of the toy breeders of today are breeding outside of the standard. Fenton to me looks different from toys with his longer stronger featured facial structure and his bold knuckles feet. I've been told this is what a toy poodle should look like. Everybody has their own perspective but a high appointed dog show judge would know best. 


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> These over sized dogs are being shown as toys? Could they not be shown as mini?
> I'm STILL thoroughly confused on that aspect. According to the AKC, size variation does not concern them, the dog is the variation it meets at maturity, regardless of the size of the parents. But then you have people who swear there is a difference and toys are toys and minis are minis and standards are standards, as if they are separate breeds and to mix any two is the same as producing a labradoodles. And then there's people who breed whatever to whatever and get what they get.


They could be shown as minis but TP does have a point if you look at an oversized toy and compare it to a mini there is a noticeable difference in their structure. I can easily tell on pictures when someone is calling their mini a toy there's just a difference it isn't supposed to be a difference they're supposed to look the exact same just different heights but breeders are now making a difference between them like some believe they should have bigger bones and broader chest on minis and toys should be these little dainty dogs. When I was researching sizes I got the impression standards are basically bomb proof they can participate in any outdoor activities and minis are just smaller version of them so you can still have you outdoor dog but it can also be a lap dog and then toys were purse dogs super fragile more just for looks and companionship not really for outdoorsy and active people. Not sure when this started happening going by pictures and information online. But back to the point if a TP is oversized than it shouldn't be bred period because then you're breeding out of standard dogs if you want to call a 11"-12" dog a toy it should be pet only not used in breeding at all if you're breeding correctly by the time your ready to breed you'll know if it's oversized or not. If breeders are concerned breeding a female who is 8"-10" then they shouldn't be breeding toys. You can easily breed minis they're bigger and tend to have better deliveries with larger litters.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> They could be shown as minis but TP does have a point if you look at an oversized toy and compare it to a mini there is a noticeable difference in their structure. I can easily tell on pictures when someone is calling their mini a toy there's just a difference it isn't supposed to be a difference they're supposed to look the exact same just different heights but breeders are now making a difference between them like some believe they should have bigger bones and broader chest on minis and toys should be these little dainty dogs. When I was researching sizes I got the impression standards are basically bomb proof they can participate in any outdoor activities and minis are just smaller version of them so you can still have you outdoor dog but it can also be a lap dog and then toys were purse dogs super fragile more just for looks and companionship not really for outdoorsy and active people. Not sure when this started happening going by pictures and information online. But back to the point if a TP is oversized than it shouldn't be bred period because then you're breeding out of standard dogs if you want to call a 11"-12" dog a toy it should be pet only not used in breeding at all if you're breeding correctly by the time your ready to breed you'll know if it's oversized or not. If breeders are concerned breeding a female who is 8"-10" then they shouldn't be breeding toys. You can easily breed minis they're bigger and tend to have better deliveries with larger litters.



Timi would beg to differ with your conclusion that Toys are lap dogs and too fragile for outdoor athletic activities.







And folks often think that she is a Spoo when there is nothing in the photo for size comparison , but still if you stood her next to a Mini, you would see the difference.


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Tiny Poodles said:


> King Louie said:
> 
> 
> > They could be shown as minis but TP does have a point if you look at an oversized toy and compare it to a mini there is a noticeable difference in their structure. I can easily tell on pictures when someone is calling their mini a toy there's just a difference it isn't supposed to be a difference they're supposed to look the exact same just different heights but breeders are now making a difference between them like some believe they should have bigger bones and broader chest on minis and toys should be these little dainty dogs. When I was researching sizes I got the impression standards are basically bomb proof they can participate in any outdoor activities and minis are just smaller version of them so you can still have you outdoor dog but it can also be a lap dog and then toys were purse dogs super fragile more just for looks and companionship not really for outdoorsy and active people. Not sure when this started happening going by pictures and information online. But back to the point if a TP is oversized than it shouldn't be bred period because then you're breeding out of standard dogs if you want to call a 11"-12" dog a toy it should be pet only not used in breeding at all if you're breeding correctly by the time your ready to breed you'll know if it's oversized or not. If breeders are concerned breeding a female who is 8"-10" then they shouldn't be breeding toys. You can easily breed minis they're bigger and tend to have better deliveries with larger litters.
> ...


 I'm not saying I agree with that statement at all. I'm just saying that is how they make it sound when you look up the differences between the sizes temperament wise. If you search you'll see Spoo and Mpoos doing all kinds of cool activities then Tpoo are mostly being shown being all dolled up in adorable haircuts with cute outfits in bags and strollers. Adonis is a toy and he's anything but fragile the other day he nearly gave me a heart attack flying off his 30in tall grooming table with me standing right there all because he seen one of the Rotties with his favorite ball thankfully he didn't get hurt. I don't even think one of my doxies could do that without seriously hurting themselves.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

King Louie said:


> I'm not saying I agree with that statement at all. I'm just saying that is how they make it sound when you look up the differences between the sizes temperament wise. If you search you'll see Spoo and Mpoos doing all kinds of cool activities then Tpoo are mostly being shown being all dolled up in adorable haircuts with cute outfits in bags and strollers. Adonis is a toy and he's anything but fragile the other day he nearly gave me a heart attack flying off his 30in tall grooming table with me standing right there all because he seen one of the Rotties with his favorite ball thankfully he didn't get hurt. I don't even think one of my doxies could do that without seriously hurting themselves.



I look at it like yes, the verbal description of the conformation is exactly the same for all three sizes, however there is an indescribable difference between the sizes when you see them right before your eyes. Anybody would see the difference between a 12" Toy, and a 12" Mini, but explaining the difference would not be easy.
But to further confuse you, my breeder did tell me that she brought in some Mini's to her toy lines 15-20 years ago in order to get something that she wanted. She sold the oversize ones as pets, and kept the small ones that had the trait that she was looking for.
Nothing to say that the sizes can't be mixed, but you have to really know what you are doing and what you are looking to achieve, or mixing those bone structures could go very wrong...


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Kassie said:


> Tiny Poodles said:
> 
> 
> > This has become exhausting. I have been monitoring Tiny Poodles postings on her new baby to come. I wasvery disheartened to find the history of this breeder. In every grain of news, there is always some truth buried. Everybody can purchase a puppy from whatever breeder they desire. *But, it seems a bit unethical to completely bulldoze over everybody to cheer lead a particular breeder and take such exception. * I wish this would stop. It is ruining many posts.
> ...


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

My breeder, groomer and others I have spoken to has said that the poodle standards are the same only the proportions change. So, certainly there will be lighter bone going from SPoo to mpoo to tpoo. 


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

King Louie said:


> But back to the point if a TP is oversized than it shouldn't be bred period because then you're breeding out of standard dogs if you want to call a 11"-12" dog a toy it should be pet only not used in breeding at all



This statement is "the one" that confuses me and I believe is why toys no longer look like their larger counterparts structurally. 
If we adhere to the notion that all poodles are one breed and within that breed are three distinct varieties based upon mature size, then yes, we could be breeding hearty strong toy dogs that look like their miniature and standards cousins. 
But as long as breeders are segregating the varieties and breeding from only a specific set of traits we will continue to produce toys that aesthetically don't meet the breed standard but are accepted "because they are toys" and the notion is acceptable. 
The standard (and again, I am going by the AKC standard) as I read it states:
"The Standard for the Poodle (Toy variety) is the same as for the Standard and Miniature varieties except as regards heights." 
That means they should "look" the same in regards to build, bone structure, muscle tone and function. But because our breeders have selectively bred to produce smaller dogs we've lost that. 
But, regardless, my confusion comes from the fact that a dog deemed "over sized" should be eligible to be shown as a miniature, if height is the only factor, but it is generally ineligible to compete? 

Or am I missing something?


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> This statement is "the one" that confuses me and I believe is why toys no longer look like their larger counterparts structurally.
> If we adhere to the notion that all poodles are one breed and within that breed are three distinct varieties based upon mature size, then yes, we could be breeding hearty strong toy dogs that look like their miniature and standards cousins.
> But as long as breeders are segregating the varieties and breeding from only a specific set of traits we will continue to produce toys that aesthetically don't meet the breed standard but are accepted "because they are toys" and the notion is acceptable.
> The standard (and again, I am going by the AKC standard) as I read it states:
> ...




I suppose perhaps because the registration papers will indicate what size the dog is supposed to be? I do not know either. ?? Good question 


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## King Louie (May 27, 2016)

Most people register their puppies when they're young so if parents are toys they'll automatically say it's a toy also I don't know if AKC will allow a person to change the information to a miniature if the puppy grows to be oversized. That's like when someone breeds a mini to a toy how can you register them as toys or minis if you don't know which category they'll fall in to and don't forget if you wait to long to register you have to pay a late fee.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Kassie said:


> I suppose perhaps because the registration papers will indicate what size the dog is supposed to be? I do not know either. ?? Good question
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The papers don't designate a variety unless the registering party specifically requests it.
When I registered Tilly I specifically called the AKC to make sure I did it correctly I was told "a poodle is a poodle is a poodle".
So, Tilly's papers don't designate her variety in any way.


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> The papers don't designate a variety unless the registering party specifically requests it.
> When I registered Tilly I specifically called the AKC to make sure I did it correctly I was told "a poodle is a poodle is a poodle".
> So, Tilly's papers don't designate her variety in any way.




So, how does one know if the poodle comes from toy, miniature or standard breeding. If the standard shall be the same for all, the only noticeable difference shall be height at withers. If this is so, then a person could enter a conformation show based on actual height of the dog...as who would know?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Kassie said:


> So, how does one know if the poodle comes from toy, miniature or standard breeding. If the standard shall be the same for all, the only noticeable difference shall be height at withers. If this is so, then a person could enter a conformation show based on actual height of the dog...as who would know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The judge would know based upon the build of the dog.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

It's easy to see the difference in bone structure when you see a mini and a toy. Toys have smaller bones and they look more delicate than minis, even if they are oversized. An oversized toy is just a taller dog with the same structure. Being oversized doesn't make its bones bigger, just longer.

I was walking with Merlin the other day and we met a relatively small mini, and Merlin is an oversized toy. The mini looked bulkier, although still elegant, and Merlin looked more delicate.

I actually prefer the look and feel of the minis, which is something I didn't know before. My next poodle will be a small mini instead of an oversized toy.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I have always thought that a well bred mini has the best type, comes closest to the breed standard of the three varieties.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> The judge would know based upon the build of the dog.


But, theoretically, each variety should have the same build.


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## Mehpenn (Jan 18, 2010)

Kassie said:


> So, how does one know if the poodle comes from toy, miniature or standard breeding. If the standard shall be the same for all, the only noticeable difference shall be height at withers. If this is so, then a person could enter a conformation show based on actual height of the dog...as who would know?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In my opinion, that is how it should be. Poodles should be shown based in their mature height, with all of characteristics being consistent from variety to variety. Otherwise, the common toy would not be judged based in the breed standard which says it's a miniature replica of larger counterparts, and is actually being judged and placed in a manner not consistent with the breed.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Mehpenn said:


> In my opinion, that is how it should be. Poodles should be shown based in their mature height, with all of characteristics being consistent from variety to variety. Otherwise, the common toy would not be judged based in the breed standard which says it's a miniature replica of larger counterparts, and is actually being judged and placed in a manner not consistent with the breed.



Oh you can take your 12" Toy into the ring with the mini's if you want but the reality is that there is no way that they are going to win. You Toy may fit the standard description to a tee, but they are different than a Mini and it would be plain for the judge to see.

Anyhow it is pointless to argue this - it is not like the breed standard is a governmental law that has to be fair, it is written by the parent club and can be enforced or not enforced as any individual judge see's fit. Of course most judges bend to popular opinion or they wouldn't be asked to judge very often....
Like I said, a dog could be dq'd for being oversized by one judge, and ten minutes later go into the ring under another judge and win. If they were following the breed standard, once measured oversized, that dog should be disqualified for life!


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## Kassie (Apr 7, 2016)

Mehpenn said:


> But, theoretically, each variety should have the same build.




That's my understanding wth the proportional differences in height. 


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