# More on the war on over vaccination



## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Thanx, Arreau. 

A good article in there on what titers are all abt, too!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Another great example of NOT taking your vet's word as Gospel. Every time I visit the vet, they tell me that Alex and Pippin are overdue for their Lepto and Bordatella vaccinations. I smile, laugh and then say: _"My dogs have never had these vaccinations so I fail to see how they're overdue. Furthermore, they'll never get either."_ I've also refused the Distemper/Parvo "booster," but will allow them to titer my dogs. 

We, as poodle guardians, need to take a stand and not allow ourselves to be bullied so they can make a profit. Whether it's Science Diet or vaccinations, it still baffles me that vet's don't have the dog/cat/horse/rabbit's best interest at heart.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, I guess like the article says, doing yearly immunizations (that should not and do not need to be done) allot for 14% of their business, so they are going to balk at us getting wise. I think most of them begin their businesses with pure hearts, but as time goes on and bills need to be paid and staff increases, they become a little jaded and the focus is the on their earning potential and bottom line.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Oh the vets are still going to make money. If savvy pet owners do not want to vaccinate...and request titering. The vets will make money on the titering. 

I was looking for a vet closer to me than the one I was using and I called and asked for a price on titering....They told me over $400.00. Needless to say I did not go to that vet.

Also my new litter are due for vaccinations and I called over 15 vets in my area...and they seem to set their prices to be the exact same everywhere. It floors me that the vet I was going to (but she is 3 hours away) charged me $29.00 per pup (including microchipping) and all the vets in my area are $80.00 pers pup plus over $20.00 to microchip. (kinda like how all the gas stations in my area all charges the same price for gas).

I am currently in a very black mood about Vets and their mission of really helping the pets that are brought in to see them. I realise that many vets have high overhead costs...but I still do not see the need to gouge their clients.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

When I switched to the holistic vet that I now use, I knew that he was copacetic with my thinking about fewer shots. Although he is, I still have to inquire about shots for boarding and usually decide that it's not worth doing. I just won't board them. I wonder what hunt packs do?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Cherie*: This is so timely for me! I use two vets; one because of proximity for things that might arise needing a quick look, another who's more amenable to Dr. Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol. Nonetheless, this month I received the "reminder" post card from each, with the obligatory cute photo of a kitten and a puppy, urging me to bring Chagall in for his "annual boosters." Doesn't seem to matter I sent each vet's office copies of his titer results, taken in September at a NJ Poodle Club health clinic, with a letter outlining my desire to forgo annual boosters. In addition, I've had _lengthy _discussions with each vet, during office visits I asked for and willingly paid for, just to make my wishes clear. 

I guess old habits die hard, the purse speaks louder than anything else, and the only one really listening to my wishes for minimal vaccines is the face staring back at me in the mirror when I brush my teeth in the morning. So be it! I appreciate the encouragement and support to stay the path, and I absolutely will! It's extremely helpful to have current articles like the one you offered as "ammo" in my home file. When I begin to worry whether I'm doing right by Chagall, all I have to do is look at those articles and remember back to the beautiful, perfectly healthy 8 year old dog I lost to AIHA six weeks to the day after she was shot full of booster vaccines and the first generation Lyme's Disease shot. Thanks for this thread!


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## judyf (Aug 20, 2011)

I take Lucy in for her rabies shot on Friday. I also expect to titer her for distemper and parvo at that time. I had previously talked to my vet about using Vaccichek, and she seemed amenable. When I called for the appointment, the receptionist said they didn't use it, they send it out. When pressed, she said I could bring in paperwork for the lab I wanted to use.

That would be Dr. Jean Dodds' lab, Hemopet. For parvo and distemper titers, the cost is something like $42. I will pay the lab for that with a CC, and I suppose the vet office will send in the sample, which they will charge me for and I am happy to pay. 

However, if they balk, I am prepared to leave them, and tell them why.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

judyf said:


> I take Lucy in for her rabies shot on Friday. I also expect to titer her for distemper and parvo at that time. I had previously talked to my vet about using Vaccichek, and she seemed amenable. When I called for the appointment, the receptionist said they didn't use it, they send it out. When pressed, she said I could bring in paperwork for the lab I wanted to use.
> 
> That would be Dr. Jean Dodds' lab, Hemopet. For parvo and distemper titers, the cost is something like $42. I will pay the lab for that with a CC, and I suppose the vet office will send in the sample, which they will charge me for and I am happy to pay.
> 
> However, if they balk, I am prepared to leave them, and tell them why.


*
Good for you!* Way to go! Good luck! You need back-up, you PM me!!:biggrin1:


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> *Cherie*: ... Nonetheless, this month I received the "reminder" post card from each, with the obligatory cute photo of a kitten and a puppy, urging me to bring Chagall in for his "annual boosters." Doesn't seem to matter I sent each vet's office copies of his titer results, taken in September at a NJ Poodle Club health clinic, with a letter outlining my desire to forgo annual boosters. In addition, I've had _lengthy _discussions with each vet, during office visits I asked for and willingly paid for, just to make my wishes clear.
> ...


I'm so tired of those friggin' reminder cards for things our poodles either don't get, don't need or will never receive. I took mine in for their biannual visits in early October and I keep getting cards advising they're both past due for biannual wellness checks. 

How hard is it to keep a record updated???? Srsly.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Rowan said:


> I'm so tired of those friggin' reminder cards for things our poodles either don't get, don't need or will never receive. I took mine in for their biannual visits in early October and I keep getting cards advising they're both past due for biannual wellness checks.
> 
> How hard is it to keep a record updated???? Srsly.


Yeah, you'd think the vets might want to save on those hefty printing and mailing costs wouldn't you, especially since they're not getting a nickel of vaccine money annually out of the likes of us?!:at-wits-end:


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

truelovepoodles said:


> Oh the vets are still going to make money. If savvy pet owners do not want to vaccinate...and request titering. The vets will make money on the titering.
> 
> I was looking for a vet closer to me than the one I was using and I called and asked for a price on titering....They told me over $400.00. Needless to say I did not go to that vet.
> 
> ...


I spoke to you about the long drive our way to go to the vet I use for the dogs in my house. I take the pups to them for a physical, first shot and microchipping. I buy the chips through the CKC for a song, and they charge me $5 to insert per pup. For a litter of ten, they charged me their office visit, which is about $40, about $20 per pup for check up and vaccination and $5 for chipping. I am pretty sure it was around $300 for the litter. This was a few years ago, but their prices have barely budged.

When we had Betty and Jenny titered last year, it was $100 per dog, no office visit charge, and Jenny does not have to go back for another titer for three years. So, they do not make their money like they do for an annual shot. And most are certainly not going to encourage us to follow these protocols. But we are so blessed that Deb found the vet we are using for the girls. They do all of their testing, hips, thyroid, S/A, cardiac, patellas, DM and eyes for about $680 (then we have all the fees to post on OFA, plus postage). But compared to everywhere else, we are getting an amazing deal from a vet who genuinely cares and who, as a breeder, is encouraging us to follow this path. The vet I use where I am has young vets from other countries as they are a training facility, and because these young ones do not pay the bills, they are very open to all of the new info. A young Australian vet and I had a long yap about Quincy's booster and afterward he thanked me for educating him. How often do we hear that? And he gave Q a three year shot and a month later a three year rabies shot, so I suspect when we titer him for distemper, parvo and adenovirus in three years that he will never have to be done again in his life

I am sending out emails to everyone who puts deposits on our puppies as soon as they send a deposit so they can read about Dr. Jean Dodds protocol and begin looking into vets in their areas to find one who is willing to do things their way. And if they won't...they move onto the next one. I also give them guidelines as to what we are being charged so they do not get gouged.

If you'd like to bring your pups here, I can give you the number. It is the Mildmay Veterinary Clinic. I'd meet you over there and give you a hand if you'd like.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Unnecessary heartworm tests are also rampant. My vet's office called to ask to which dogs I was giving a recent purchase of heartworm medication. Since the vet had seen 3 of the 4 spoos, I considered the question at best unnecessary and at worst invasive. 

Over the last year, I have also come to see that he is one of "those" vets who likes the extra income and gives shots every year. He wants to test for heartworms even if the animal is on preventative, and I left his butt in a hurry! 

If we don't start complaining to the veterinary medical associations to help stop these outrages, in addition to complaining directly to the vets involved, the associations will look the other way, as they are doing now. In the meantine, we best be well informed for our pets' health and benefit.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

petitpie said:


> Unnecessary heartworm tests are also rampant. My vet's office called to ask to which dogs I was giving a recent purchase of heartworm medication. Since the vet had seen 3 of the 4 spoos, I considered the question at best unnecessary and at worst invasive.
> 
> Over the last year, I have also come to see that he is one of "those" vets who likes the extra income and gives shots every year. He wants to test for heartworms even if the animal is on preventative, and I left his butt in a hurry!
> 
> If we don't start complaining to the veterinary medical associations to help stop these outrages, in addition to complaining directly to the vets involved, the associations will look the other way, as they are doing now. In the meantine, we best be well informed for our pets' health and benefit.


This is where I differ in opinion. Unnecessary heartworm test? A heartworm test is not going to harm your dog. It's not like you are vaccinating. You are testing to ensure that you are not going to give monthly heartworm medicine to a dog affected with heartworm, because depending on the medication , it could cause a life threatening reaction if your dog has adult heartworms. Of course, this is not always the case as some heartworm medications are actually used in high doses to kill the adult heartworms.

In fact, I would be more apt to suggest NOT giving heartworm preventative in the very cold winter months, and then ALWAYS testing yearly.

Now, if you are giving annual preventative every month, I can see getting by without the test. Though, I would probably still choose to do it, especially as I do not give heartworm pills every 30 days, I do it every 42.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

According to several vets and other information, nothing will show up for a long period of time if the animal is on heartworm preventative. If the treatment were not so serious and instead similar to treating regular worms, having the possibility of a false positive wouldn't worry me so much. However, I will keep learning by asking and searching......thanks, again.

And by the way, has anyone been told that most people with pets probably have worms, too? The same sort of wormer such as panacur is also used for people. 

You coulda' knocked me over with a feather!


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## Trillium (Sep 1, 2009)

I've got to say I'm blessed with my vet. They are big fans of Jean Dobbs. They do do Lepto vaccinations. I have never gotten a yearly vaccine card. (But I did get a lovely Christmas card) It could be because almost every one on staff is a breeder. But is sure is nice not to have to argue about the issue. They spend time in their office working on informing the public that they shouldn't be doing yearly vaccines!! I'm really concerned about that after losing Sport to an autoimmune disease!! 

Cayenne will be getting less vaccinations then Betty Jo and Jenny got. Though as Cherie already stated I'm titering them now too but they did receive more puppy vaccinations.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I have two vets because of similar reasons already mentioned. I only get a reminder of rabies and heart-worm. My vet must be cheap! 

My vet requires the fecal check for HW yearly in order to purchase my HW preventative. Mine are on HW all year, it's high in my area and also the deaths associated to it are enough to get the check. It's a fecal and my Vet does not require an office visit to do it. So it's prety affordable. 

As far as HW being dormant I was under the assumption it could for a few months. This is why the vet will typically recommend getting a re-check from the start day for 3 months later just in case it did not show on the first fecal.


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## judyf (Aug 20, 2011)

Thanks for the offer, Chagall's mom. I think riding my broom to the vet's office will pretty much keep the crew in line, though.

Seriously, when I donated to the Rabies Challenge, I got a DVD copy of the Safer Pet Vaccination Benefit Seminar with Drs. Schultz and Dodds, and the written proceedings, so I went in pretty informed on the minimal vax protocols thanks to that and a Schultz webinar on vaccinosis. The vet I saw, and will be seeing Friday, gave me no problems re: what vaccines I did and didn't want, when I wanted the mandatory rabies (2 months past the legally mandated date), and understood that there would be no 'booster' in 2 months (or ever). She grasped the titering rationale, and seemed to have no problem with it. Friday will be interesting.

However, like you guys, I got the 'booster' postcard, but on the same card the rabies shot was slated for 6 months, and followup bloodwork was noted (presumably the titer), so I was not too aggravated. I was aggravated when I got the 'spay' postcard, however, but that's another story. I think the techs just need something to do sometimes.

Off topic again, but if anyone is interested, Dr. Dodds' book, The Canine Thyroid Epidemic, is available for kindle, for only $9.99. I downloaded my copy, but haven't had a chance to look at it yet.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Olie said:


> I have two vets because of similar reasons already mentioned. I only get a reminder of rabies and heart-worm. My vet must be cheap!
> 
> My vet requires the fecal check for HW yearly in order to purchase my HW preventative. Mine are on HW all year, it's high in my area and also the deaths associated to it are enough to get the check. It's a fecal and my Vet does not require an office visit to do it. So it's prety affordable.
> 
> As far as HW being dormant I was under the assumption it could for a few months. This is why the vet will typically recommend getting a re-check from the start day for 3 months later just in case it did not show on the first fecal.


Yes, it takes about 6 months from the time a mosquito carrying heartworm larvae bites a dog, transmitting the larvae to the dog, and the time in which the larvae becomes adult heartworm and thus is detectable by heartworm test. 

A heartworm test can only detect the level of antigen that is present when adult heartworms are present, as opposed to larvae. 

Also, just for anyone who is curious as to how heartworm meds work, they do not actually prevent heartworm infection. When you give heartworm preventative each month, it kills all microfilaria/larvae that the dog has gotten within the past month. This works to prevent the larvae from ever becoming adult heartworms.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I kept getting card reminders for things, even though I told the office that I wouldn't be coming in. The staff in that place must not be kept up to date on patient information.

What's legal here with rabies shots, etc. is mandated by the city council, or some such body--informed, caring souls, all......


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Olie said:


> I have two vets because of similar reasons already mentioned. I only get a reminder of rabies and heart-worm. My vet must be cheap!
> 
> My vet requires the fecal check for HW yearly in order to purchase my HW preventative. Mine are on HW all year, it's high in my area and also the deaths associated to it are enough to get the check. It's a fecal and my Vet does not require an office visit to do it. So it's prety affordable.
> 
> As far as HW being dormant I was under the assumption it could for a few months. This is why the vet will typically recommend getting a re-check from the start day for 3 months later just in case it did not show on the first fecal.


Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe heartworms will show up in a stool sample. A blood test is required to check for heartworms as they reside in the heart and surrounding vessels and lungs, hence the name _*heart*_worm. Intestinal parasites (roundworm, tapeworm, hookworm, whipworms, etc.) will occur in the stool and this is why vets recommend an annual fecal smear and/or float. 

I give heartworm preventative year round because mosquitoes are rampant where I live and I'm just anal.

ETA: good link on the various tests http://www.forgottenpaws.com/heartworms.htm


> How is heartworm infection diagnosed?
> In most cases, *diagnosis of heartworm disease can be made by a blood test* that can be run in the veterinary hospital….
> *Serological test for antigens to adult heartworms*: This is a test performed on a blood sample...
> *Blood test for microfilariae*: A blood sample is examined under the microscope for the presence of microfilariae. ...
> ...


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

It is blood - my error. I am aware of what heartworm is just got my tests crossed. Still a simple procedure worth doing.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm always troubled by thread titles like this one. Vaccines are one of the wonders of the modern world. While I agree that many pharmaceutical companies recommend a schedule that maximises the use of vaccines without addressing any additional risk, and many vets follow that without questioning, I don't think demonising vaccination is helpful. For a lurker on this forum, it would be easy to take that thread title as meaning "all vaccines are bad".

Sadly, I am old enough to remember losing TWO dogs to distemper, separately, when I was a child. It is not pretty. Nor is rabies. Nor are any of a host of diseases for which we now have vaccines.

Like others, I have in the past ended up with vets that recommended things that I questioned. I have always found vets open to discussion, however.

The people on this forum are the cream of the crop in terms of how we look after our dogs; the vast majority of owners that vets encounter neither care as much as we do about their pets, nor are they motivated to do their own research, so I think most vets can become a bit jaded. Vets give the best advice they can, with the resources they have. Could all vets be better about staying current with new research? Yes. Do they have our pets' best interests at heart? Also yes.

(Disclaimer: my grandfather was an old-time large animal vet, and my cousin is a small animal vet.)

I find it troubling, the attitude that vets are out to get us, or only in it for the money. They have the same schooling expenses as medical doctors, have to buy what is essentially the same diagnostic equipment, and make about a fifth of what the average doctor earns.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

JE-UK said:


> I'm always troubled by thread titles like this one. Vaccines are one of the wonders of the modern world. While I agree that many pharmaceutical companies recommend a schedule that maximises the use of vaccines without addressing any additional risk, and many vets follow that without questioning, I don't think demonising vaccination is helpful. For a lurker on this forum, it would be easy to take that thread title as meaning "all vaccines are bad".
> 
> Sadly, I am old enough to remember losing TWO dogs to distemper, separately, when I was a child. It is not pretty. Nor is rabies. Nor are any of a host of diseases for which we now have vaccines.
> 
> ...


The title of this thread, and the article within it do not demonize vaccinations at all, but certainly demonize over vaccination.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> I'm always troubled by thread titles like this one. Vaccines are one of the wonders of the modern world. While I agree that many pharmaceutical companies recommend a schedule that maximises the use of vaccines without addressing any additional risk, and many vets follow that without questioning, I don't think demonising vaccination is helpful. For a lurker on this forum, it would be easy to take that thread title as meaning "all vaccines are bad". I personally didn't get this from the thread title at all. It's addressing the issues of _over_-vaccination, and the fact many vets are reluctant to consider the latest research and protocols, which is always a lively discussion.
> 
> Sadly, I am old enough to remember losing TWO dogs to distemper, separately, when I was a child. It is not pretty. Nor is rabies. Nor are any of a host of diseases for which we now have vaccines. I'm sorry you had to go through this as I've heard both diseases are horrific.
> 
> ...


I don't think there's a prevailing attitude that vets are out to get us. But, as stated above, when your vet is unwilling to consider research or the latest protocol, one has to wonder _why_ and we end up frustrated. If research indicates that over-vaccination is bad for our companions, why not dig deeper? Unfortunately, _some _are reluctant to diverge from a certain way of thinking and resent being asked to do so. (Just as _some _medical doctors resent patients who have assumed the role of their own advocates.) I'm not saying that's the case with all vets, but as with all professions, bad vets do exist. 

I realize that vets are dealing with all kinds and not everyone out there is like the majority of forum members, who not only would do anything for their poodles, but who are savvy enough to do the research and question certain protocol. The age old "What if?" stance. I also realize there are those who whip out the "Veterinary Encyclopedia" and show up insisting their dog has X, Y and Z, or those who only show up once every three years when their dog is in dire straits. 

Oh, and many of us are complaining about the administrative practices of our vet's office, which has nothing to do with the actual veterinary skills, etc. My vet's admin staff and practices would benefit from a major overhaul! 
*
I don't think this post will result in lurkers thinking all vaccinations are bad. On the contrary, I believe it will inspire more pet owners to do the research and open a dialogue with their vets, and that's a good thing. *


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Yes...the title is very clearly...the war on OVER vaccinating


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

temperance had a horrid reaction to her rabies vaccine. 
i'll titer her before i revax her.

seelie will have his 1 year boosters and his rabies and will be titered afterwards.

same with my other dogs. it's worth $60 or so to do so.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

This is a forum for open and honest discussion about all things Poodle. There is no reason to limit anythng said in any thread. All experiences are valid for anyone who has experienced them and deserves airing. Prorocol has nothing to do with science; they are apples and oranges. 

It is up to each of us to sort through the information and then decide for oneself what to do. Please return to the beginning of this thread for comment that is less heat and more cool. We are all here to do what is best for our beloved Poodles.


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## judyf (Aug 20, 2011)

Faerie, some states will allow a waiver of the rabies shot in circumstances like yours. I am not sure if any states recognize the rabies titer in lieu of the shot, though.

As Petitpie mentioned, politicians are the ones who write the rabies laws, and their motivation is not necessarily the welfare of their constituents' pets. In my county, rabies vaccination is tied to licensing, and is mandated for both dogs and cats. There is a pet limit here, and your vet sells you the license when your pet receives its rabies shot, and registers it with the county. 

The cost for a 3 year license (when your pet gets a 3 year shot) is $125 for an intact pet. In this county, the economy is poor, and there are over 1,000 foreclosures and preforeclosures ongoing. People who are losing their homes are clearly not going to be able to afford this, and people who are over the pet limit are not going to want to have their pets reported to county officials if they vaccinate their pets. 

Low cost rabies shots are offered only in the one year variety (even tough we know the 3 year and one year shot are virtually identical, differing mainly in the testing done for gov't approval), and there is no break for those who cannot afford the licensing fee even for the one year license. I called the county on this, and only heard crickets chirping in reply. 

That is one reason why I support the Rabies Challenge, and also a reason discussions like these are important.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

JE-UK said:


> I'm always troubled by thread titles like this one. Vaccines are one of the wonders of the modern world. While I agree that many pharmaceutical companies recommend a schedule that maximises the use of vaccines without addressing any additional risk, and many vets follow that without questioning, I don't think demonising vaccination is helpful. For a lurker on this forum, it would be easy to take that thread title as meaning "all vaccines are bad".
> 
> Sadly, I am old enough to remember losing TWO dogs to distemper, separately, when I was a child. It is not pretty. Nor is rabies. Nor are any of a host of diseases for which we now have vaccines.
> 
> ...


*JE-UK*: I always enjoy your posts because they make me think. I do not mean to "vet bash"; _truly _I would donate my own kidneys, heart, lungs and liver to the vets that have helped my pets over the years. I have just encountered such resistance from my "old" vet of 19 years in even _considering _a change from annual vaccinations. He doesn't even wish to speak with me about it; in fact all he did when I tried was literally to yell at me, curse my breeder and say he "doesn't tell her how to breed, so she shouldn't f------ tell him how to practice veterinary medicine." Okay, I get I hit one of his hot buttons there.

I am IMMENSELY grateful to the women and men who undertake the rigorous education and heartbreaks of practicing veterinary medicine. I believe what some of us are encountering on this side of the pond is simply some "old think" and resistance to having proactive patients. 

Medical doctors here have gone through a similar awakening, I think, over the past 20 years. People aren't just taking the medicine as prescribed and staying mum; they're asking about risks/benefits and wanting to be involved in making care decisions_ along with_ the doctor. Believe me, if I could wave a magic wand and make my husband into a veterinarian (rather than the attorney he is!), I would do it in a heartbeat. But he's afraid of blood, wedded to the practice of law, and would want to keep every animal he treated. Rest assured there's no anti-vet sentiment on my part, or that of many others. It's just we want a voice, and we don't want the one talking back to us to be shouting or dismissive.

I agree, vaccines _have_ made the world a better place. And as we learn better how and when to use them, they will continue to.


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## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

Chagall's mom said:


> *JE-UK*: Medical doctors here have gone through a similar awakening, I think, over the past 20 years. People aren't just taking the medicine as prescribed and staying mum; they're asking about risks/benefits and wanting to be involved in making care decisions_ along with_ the doctor.


Amen to that! In an age when drug companies advertise directly to us consumers, you can bet that we can and should become informed patients. Doctors have gotten with the program and made the appropriate adjustment; now it's time for vets to do the same thing.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

My vet is very forward thinking. She is trying to get titers accepted in CT instead of vaccines. They have stopped innoculating for Lepto. We had a long discussion on if I should innoculate for Lyme. Since I know of several dogs and people in my immediate area who have become infected with Lyme I asked for it. I appreciate her taking the time to go over the pros and cons of each vaccine. I did vaccinate for kennel cough even though I had gone into the office ready to refuse it. Swizzle was just a puppy and she told me we were having a small epidemic in our area. I have gone in recently to have Swizzle's stool checked. Is there any vaccine other than rabies (which I am forced to get) that I should get (and Lyme which I consider necessary because of the area that I am in)?


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> My vet is very forward thinking. She is trying to get titers accepted in CT instead of vaccines. They have stopped innoculating for Lepto. We had a long discussion on if I should innoculate for Lyme. Since I know of several dogs and people in my immediate area who have become infected with Lyme I asked for it. I appreciate her taking the time to go over the pros and cons of each vaccine. I did vaccinate for kennel cough even though I had gone into the office ready to refuse it. Swizzle was just a puppy and she told me we were having a small epidemic in our area. I have gone in recently to have Swizzle's stool checked. Is there any vaccine other than rabies (which I am forced to get) that I should get (and Lyme which I consider necessary because of the area that I am in)?


We have the same problem here--high incidence of Lyme's Disease. I used to get the vaccination but then I decided to go with blood tests instead. Mine go in twice a year for biannual exams so I have them tested for the tick-borne illnesses then. I also check for ticks during the evening brush out, but those deer ticks are near impossible to find on a black dog much less any dog. So I often take them in for an extra Lyme test during the summer just to be safe. (They have one in late March, June/July and early October.)


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am constantly checking Swizzle. After one walk I got 4 ticks off of him (and one off me) and we did not even get off the blacktop. I will ask the vet about the option of blood work. I am hesitant because I have seen dogs with Lyme and the effects can be devestating. I am not completely confident in that antibiotics can completely cure them one they are infected. My vet stays current on these issues so I will probably go with whatever she recommends. Thank you for making me aware of that option Rowan.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> I am constantly checking Swizzle. After one walk I got 4 ticks off of him (and one off me) and we did not even get off the blacktop. I will ask the vet about the option of blood work. I am hesitant because I have seen dogs with Lyme and the effects can be devestating. I am not completely confident in that antibiotics can completely cure them one they are infected. My vet stays current on these issues so I will probably go with whatever she recommends. Thank you for making me aware of that option Rowan.


I think you're in "Lyme central," aren't you? I would probably vaccinate if I found _that _many ticks in one outing as well! I tend to find them frequently but usually only one at a time. I had to undergo a round of the Doxy this past summer due to an embedded tick. I hate those things! I wish we could eradicate them. 

Do you use FrontLine or other preventative? I broke down and started using it because of the sheer number of ticks I was finding. Per my research, it kills them before they can inject the virus. Ticks don't inject Lyme's until after they feed, which is why most vets (and doctors) agree you're probably safe if you find it within 36 hours.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

We don't know that the majority of pet owners don't care about their pets, and we don't have enough information to say that one way or the other. Off hand, I would guess that most people do care who take their pets to vets. One certainly has to wonder about all of the homeless animals and their former owners. And we thank those working for homeless pets, those donating, and those giving them homes. This is where statistics come in, and I doubt that anyone could get many pet owners to admit that they don't care about their pets, no matter what protocol you use. 

I don't have any answers; I'm just trying to keep up with asking the right questions! :act-up:


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It sounds like many of you have had bad experiences with vets, which is a shame. I've always managed, through luck or happenstance, to end up with vets that are at least open to a dialogue, although I tend to broach my questions or concerns carefully. I find that quiet persistence in these discussions is often more effective than direct challenge. I had Vasco in last year for xrays because I was convinced he had a blockage, and the vet recommended the Science Diet bland diet (can't think what it's called). I actually sat in his office with him and talked through the ingredients and explained the ones I wasn't comfortable with and why, and he was completely open to it. Of course, I'm more than happy to spend my time cooking chicken and rice for my dog, which perhaps many aren't. Which was his point in terms of why he recommended the SD.

In any case, yes, I agree we need to be looking more carefully at lots of things that have been accepted wisdom, including vaccination schedules. I wish there were more data! It would be interesting to see a long term study that looked at comparing bad vaccination outcomes against the increased risk of disease. We probably all try to balance what we learn with what we have experienced, which is probably why I would be seen as an over-vaccinator by some, having seen dogs die of vaccine-preventable diseases.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

petitpie said:


> *We don't know that the majority of pet owners don't care about their pets, and we don't have enough information to say that one way or the other. *Off hand, I would guess that most people do care who take their pets to vets. One certainly has to wonder about all of the homeless animals and their former owners. And we thank those working for homeless pets, those donating, and those giving them homes. This is where statistics come in, and I doubt that anyone could get many pet owners to admit that they don't care about their pets, no matter what protocol you use.
> 
> I don't have any answers; I'm just trying to keep up with asking the right questions! :act-up:


I'm basing my comments (opinion) on the people I encounter on an everyday basis. I work for a large organization in a large office (federal gov't). We often have discussions about our dogs and it never ceases to amaze me how many people don't even take their dog in for an annual wellness exam. Most will say, "I don't take him/her unless they're sick. What's the point?" or "It's too expensive," or worse, "It's just a dog." A lot of them make fun of me for taking my dogs in twice a year (wellness checks) and of course for cooking their food. They don't view their dogs as members of the family like the majority of us on this forum do. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I'd love to change that way of thinking! 

And....According to my actual (previous) vet, they have to use whatever means necessary to get people in the door. The majority of pet owners _don't _come in once a year. They only see them when the rabies expires (3 years) and they need it to renew their licences. (Animal Control is pretty strict around here.)

So, it strikes me as odd that we continue to have this problem and yet sales of dog toys are booming, despite the economy. LOL


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

JE-UK - maybe putting a meaning to over vaccinating would help separate you from the overvaccinators. If your dog has been vaccinated and is immune, and you continue to overvaccinate - you are overvaccinating. Likewise, Annual vaccinations of DHPP or Rabies have been proven to be unnecessary. This belief is accepted by AHAA and other progressive veterinary circles. Thus, the fact that veterinarians continue to force annual vaccinations on clients is extremely *concerning.*.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

If markets are an indication of popularity, never mind responsibility; then pet store puppies are in plentiful supply. Poodles are just one of many breeds there. And I found one that I couldn't resist. Maybe I "rescued" her years ago; she had a good home and lived a long life.

Are vets having a problem making ends meet because of client/patient scarcity? I've also heard that vet schools in this country are harder to get into than medical schools because of the growing number of applicants. 

Do "too much" and "too many" still have any meaning, where living creatures are concerned?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Truelovepoodles: I aprpeciated your comments about the cost of vet services. When I got Sunny, I agreed to have him neutered and any other medical needs done in Canada and I paid for it, rather than wait for him to arrive and handle locally, since he had to have a rabies shot 30 days prior to crossing the border. I noticed the pricing at the vet in Canada (I think in Regina) must much more reasonable than here in the Chicago area. Also, after paying for 2 cranial cruciate ligament surgeries with Jake, I swear I should have an exam room named after me anyway.


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## DaveTN (Dec 5, 2011)

Incredibly informative post from all of you. Having lost a 13 yr. old Chihuahua 30 days after my former vet administered a 3 yr. rabies vaccination, I can attest to that loss being as painful as one to any other cause. She was a lean, fit and active girl and spiraled downhill first with an allergic reaction the the injection and then her heart began to fail. There was absolutely NO reason to give a 13 yr. old small breed dog a 3 yr. rabies vaccination. She died from over-vaccination. 
But I have a question regarding the Bordetella immunization my new vet suggests. I even believe she said her clinic would not groom my puppy if I don't allow the vaccine. Is this the experience you guys are having or have had?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I have never had to get Bordetella vaccinations for my poodles. Granted, they were not ever boarded, or did not have tags to a city dog beach or anything, but still never had to. I think if I boarded him at day care, it would be a requirement -- but to be groomed??? No, not if you go to a groomer; you say clinic would not groom. Where exactly do you have your dogs groomed? Never heard of having it done at a clinic -- at least around here.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

After having a sick opposum running around in my yard last week (distemper?), I will make sure my dogs are immune to these nasty diseases. I will get a titer level instead of just vaccinating them. Yes, it costs a little more, but I think it is worth it. 

Dogs should be vaccinated. Later, they should be checked to make sure the vaccinations worked. If their titer levels are low they should revaccinate. 

It is a huge mistake to blow off these diseases.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

outwest said:


> After having a sick opposum running around in my yard last week (distemper?), I will make sure my dogs are immune to these nasty diseases. I will get a titer level instead of just vaccinating them. Yes, it costs a little more, but I think it is worth it.
> 
> Dogs should be vaccinated. Later, they should be checked to make sure the vaccinations worked. If their titer levels are low they should revaccinate.
> 
> It is a huge mistake to blow off these diseases.


The issue here is bit blowing off diseases. It's about overvaccinating. A dog does not lose immunity. They are immune or they are not.


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## DaveTN (Dec 5, 2011)

My vet has an on site grooming facility. I could certainly choose another groomer who didn't require it. 
I understand why those who never board their dogs don't immunize against Bordetella. In my case there will be times when I do board him in order to travel cross country to visit my children. In those cases you're pretty much at the mercy of the requirements of the facility aren't you?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes. You have to get the bordetella in order to board a dog. It is a wimpy vaccine, though. It doesn't always prevent kennel cough, but does make it milder if they get it, and only lasts around 6 months.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

DaveTN said:


> But I have a question regarding the Bordetella immunization my new vet suggests. I even believe she said her clinic would not groom my puppy if I don't allow the vaccine. Is this the experience you guys are having or have had?


Yes, where I live you have to have bordetella vaccs to take your dog to daycare, boarding, obedience lessons and some grooming facilities. My girlfriend's standard poodle had bord this fall, and my goodness he was sick! It's taken months for him to get over it, and was very expensive to have treated. So I have a new respect for the bord shots, although I initially felt forced to get them because sometimes I do want to take advantage of services like daycare or boarding.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

The bordetella nasal therapy is supposed to be kinder than the shot. 

On titers, even Dr. Dodds remains circumspect:

Dr Jean Dodds runs a lab which provides antibody titer measurements for distemper and parvovirus in vaccinated dogs. This study shows excellent protection going out 5 years. But what about the 5 % and 2.45% with low titers? Some only had one vaccine at 12 weeks. Dr Dodds will be the first to tell you a negative titer does not mean lack of immunity, as protection can be provided by memory cells even with a negative titer, and titers do not measure cell mediated immunity.

The AVMA COBTA does not 
recommend titers. 
AAHA dose not recommend titers. 
AAHA has pointed out that a positive titer does show the patient will be immune for 7 years, and that cell mediated immunity has been 
stimulated.

Titers:
Rough Correlation with Immunity
Negative Titer Does Not Mean Lack of Immunity or that re-vaccination will "Boost" Immunity
Does not measure cell mediated Immunity controlled by memory cells


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

My groomers, wise dog people, don't require bordetella and boarding kennels do. However, for some reason, the vet didn't require bordetella to board my poodles.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think 1 new controversy with the Bordetella vaccine is the injection vs. the nasal. I personally do nasal but not every year only if my certain of my dogs need to be boarded & then I do the nasal. My vet likes the injection but when I used to work at a Boarding/grooming facility MORE dogs got bordetella than ones with the nasal. My vet said that if the Bordetella turns into pnemonia (sp) that the injection combats it (virus) better. I will just do the nasal. Of all my dogs to even get Bordetella was my young 2 year old that had been vaccinated within the last 6 months & she got it from a young dog as well that had been vaccinated within the last year. Go, figure we just let Bordetella run it's course, about 3 wks & the other dog went to the vet & got antibiotics & it still took that dog 3wks to get better.


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## Panda (Jan 7, 2010)

I am a little confused about the whole vaccination thing if anyone doesnt mind giving me some advice.

Panda had his puppy shots (nobivac) of which he had 2 vaccine 2 weeks apart i believe.

I haven't had him re-vaccinated since and he will be 2 on February 16th.

I was going to get his boosters at 18 months but then he got the wart virus and I didnt want to vaccinate him while he was fighting a virus and now he is nearly 2!

So my question is, should I get his booster now? He hasnt had the rabies shot as its not needed over here so just the normal ones.

I really dont want to over vaccinate but he has only had his puppy shots so far.

Any advice?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I would have him titered. He may be fine as is. Cayenne had two puppy shots and has been titered and she is fine. She has not had her rabies shot yet, but will get it in the next few weeks


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## Panda (Jan 7, 2010)

Good idea, to have them titered do they have to shave Pandas leg? or can they take blood from somewhere less noticeable?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

They will likely take it from his leg, but they did not shave Cayenne's and they did not shave Betty and Jenny's to do progesterone tests every couple of days. Ask them is they could try without shaving.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

Panda said:


> Good idea, to have them titered do they have to shave Pandas leg? or can they take blood from somewhere less noticeable?


Mine have never been shaved for blood draws. They either use the front leg (cephalic) or the neck (jugular). However, I did ask them to shave a bit from my senior rescue poos when drawing blood to make it less stressful. For whatever reason, the techs had a hard time drawing blood from Lord Byron, and Brandy had frequent blood work due to his diabetes.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Panda said:


> Good idea, to have them titered do they have to shave Pandas leg? or can they take blood from somewhere less noticeable?


Chagall had blood for his titers drawn from his neck (from his jugular vein), no additional shaving was necessary as I keep that area shaved.:nurse:


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I've always wondered why vets take dogs to the back room and away from the sight of the owner to draw blood.

My dog/horse vet wouldn't allow me to watch until I said, "I won't faint." His experience with some men was that they did faint when their horses/dogs were worked on. Then he had two patients!


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## judyf (Aug 20, 2011)

Lucy's blood for titering purposes was drawn at the same time they drew blood for her heartworm check, from her front leg, no shaving needed. 

For those that are interested, a distemper/parvo titer from Dr. Jean Dodds' lab, Hemopet, is only $42. My vet didn't even charge to send it in for me. Hemopet will email you with the results. (Lucy is good to go.)

The test request forms are online.


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