# Are these bad base narrow canines? Or more mild?



## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

I have no experience with this condition but there was a thread recently about it. Try doing a search on the forum.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I have a friend who successfully performed this type of massage and her young husky didn't end up requiring surgery or orthodontics. It was done by teaching her husky to gently tug a tennis ball.

She did this under the guidance of a specialist, which is what I would recommend you do, too. Pricy upfront but may prevent much larger costs down the road.

As for the breeder....ultimately you decided to proceed despite your misgivings, so I'd do my best to let that anger go and focus on my puppy. It sounds like you're already very much bonded with him, so let's celebrate that! Would love to know his name and see some photos when you feel like sharing.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I have a friend who successfully performed this type of massage and her young husky didn't end up requiring surgery or orthodontics. It was done by teaching her husky to gently tug a tennis ball.
> 
> She did this under the guidance of a specialist, which is what I would recommend you do, too. Pricy upfront but may prevent much larger costs down the road.
> 
> As for the breeder....ultimately you decided to proceed despite your misgivings, so I'd do my best to let that anger go and focus on my puppy. It sounds like you're already very much bonded with him, so let's celebrate that! Would love to know his name and see some photos when you feel like sharing.


Unfortunately I feel the breeder was deliberately deceptive and downplayed it. I have all the emails in which she minimised the extent of the issue knowing full well that I am not a vet nor experienced in canine dental issues. She sold me a puppy with upper palate trauma and a malocclusion essentially and in emails she actually denied this. It is only since bringing my puppy home, looking at his mouth properly and starting to research that I can now take in the full weight of the situation.

What kind of ANKC breeder sends a puppy home with an already a sore mouth, telling the owner to just push on deciduous teeth?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

What a terrible situation. I'm sorry.  Are you considering returning the puppy? 

I don't think my friend was advised that her husky puppy had dental issues either. There are a lot of unscrupulous folks out there.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi,

First, here's a link I got doing a site search for "base+narrow" threads









Search results for query: base+narrow







www.poodleforum.com





Second. I'm assuming the ANKC is the official purebred registry of Australia and if so, you might contact them to ask if there's any information about the breeders standing with them or if they can suggest a good way to resolve this in the pup's best interest.
On further reading of the website, your proper contact would be the controlling body for the state/territory.






Member Bodies







ankc.org.au





What variety is your pup and how old? Is the pup able to eat without seeming in pain?


Another thought...if you have a vet already chosen or established with, could you send them photos sooner than you can get in? This is not to skip the appointment but to give you a professional opinion on what might need to be done, so you can plan a bit?


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> What a terrible situation. I'm sorry.  Are you considering returning the puppy?
> 
> I don't think my friend was advised that her husky puppy had dental issues either. There are a lot of unscrupulous folks out there.


I won't be returning the puppy, he is already part of our family, I could never do that.

Our puppy will be loved and well taken care of x


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi,
> 
> First, here's a link I got doing a site search for "base+narrow" threads
> 
> ...


Thankyou x
He doesn't appear to be in pain however I have read they rarely if ever show pain with this? So I don't know that I can say he is not in pain.

He is very small, and I can feel his ribs. He is 3.4kg and 9 weeks old, he is a standard poodle.

He appears to have no problem wolfing down his food.

I have read that pushing on deciduous teeth is a terrible idea as it can displace the adult teeth more? I'm glad I haven't been zealous trying to do this.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

We'll be here to support you in any way we can.

Peggy also came to us malnourished, but quickly fattened up once we found the right food for her. I'm glad to hear your little guy isn't in too much pain to eat. You're right that dogs are wired to not show pain. That's why we all have to be canine detectives sometimes and spot the signs. Not eating can be a big one.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> We'll be here to support you in any way we can.
> 
> Peggy also came to us malnourished, but quickly fattened up once we found the right food for her. I'm glad to hear your little guy isn't in too much pain to eat. You're right that dogs are wired to not show pain. That's why we all have to be canine detectives sometimes and spot the signs. Not eating can be a big one.


Thankyou for your support x
I will update on future developments.

He's a little darling.
He has already learned sit and his name. He has been with us just 48 hours.
Toilet training is going to take a while though as he's not been used to going on grass.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Mia (now 10 years old) had linguoverted canines as a puppy. It's a common condition in poodles because of the narrowness of the muzzle and even reputable breeders may not cover corrective costs (check your health guarantee). At the time the recommendation was to remove the puppy canines and use "ball therapy" to help the adult canines grow into proper position. Ball therapy turned out to be simply "play with balls" - balls are the right size to sit in the mouth and exert outward pressure on the canines. We didn't _only_ play with balls, but I made sure we _did_ play with balls, and her adult canines came in perfectly (they usually do).


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

Zephyr also had one inverted canine as a puppy. His breeder told me my vet would probably want to pull the tooth but that I should not do that, to have him play with balls and to put outward pressure on the tooth. I did that and his adult teeth came in perfect. I think it is very common in poodle puppies to have one or both bottom canines inverted, and usually it is not a problem.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I searched for some additional info on ball therapy as a first non-invasive treatment option and found quite a few positive recommendations from medical sites. I'm linking two for you:






How To Adjust Abnormally Positioned Canine Teeth


In my May 2012 article, “The Problematic Deciduous Canine Tooth,” I described how persistent deciduous teeth could contribute to chronic linguoversion (medial displacement) of permanent mandibular canine teeth due to attempts of the permanent and deciduous teeth to occupy the same area. When...




www.veterinarypracticenews.com







http://toothvet.ca/PDFfiles/ball_therapy.pdf


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Here is a pic, you can see two little holes in his palate but there doesn't appear to be any inflammation or redness?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

There doesn't appear to be, so that's hopefully a positive. My boy's are asleep so I can't do a comparison right now.
Based on the original pics, I'm thinking it's the indentations closest to the canines, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the area above?


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> There doesn't appear to be, so that's hopefully a positive. My boy's are asleep so I can't do a comparison right now.
> Based on the original pics, I'm thinking it's the indentations closest to the canines, but I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the area above?
> 
> View attachment 469798


I'm pretty sure I see the indentations here. Thankfully they look mild. Hopefully the prognosis is good.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Raindrops said:


> I'm pretty sure I see the indentations here. Thankfully they look mild. Hopefully the prognosis is good.


Yes that is them.
I am hoping beyond hope that the baby teeth just fall out and we do ball therapy.

If he is 9 weeks old are his canines fully erupted or will they grow longer?


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

firstspoo said:


> Yes that is them.
> I am hoping beyond hope that the baby teeth just fall out and we do ball therapy.
> 
> If he is 9 weeks old are his canines fully erupted or will they grow longer?


The puppy teeth usually start to fall out at around 12-14 weeks so the lower canines are still going to grow and continue to hit/puncture the roof of the mouth. I dealt with base narrow canines in one of my Standards. You can search and you will see I posted about it in response to other threads here. I was already aware of the issue, it is not uncommon in some lines with fairly refined headpieces. Also, my breeder disclosed to me that my girl, and a couple other pups in the litter, had the issue and we discussed so I knew all about it before I brought my girl home. I monitored regularly and when the canines poked the roof of her mouth I had my regular vet pull them. When the adult lower canines came in, they were still inside so I saw a board-certified dentist at my specialty practice. They felt my pup's particular issue was mild enough that ball therapy as well as exerting outward pressure on them several times a day would encourage them to move into correct placement, which is what our outcome was. She wound up with a perfect bite and placement. I would encourage you to consult a vet dentist now for a second opinion to make sure you do everything you can to encourage correct placement without possible need for surgery later on. Sometimes early intervention is all that is needed. Also to make sure the lower teeth don't continue to further puncture the roof of the mouth.


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## Olive Love (Jul 22, 2020)

Maybe he is teething.


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## Olive Love (Jul 22, 2020)

Talk to your vet about this.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Eclipse said:


> The puppy teeth usually start to fall out at around 12-14 weeks so the lower canines are still going to grow and continue to hit/puncture the roof of the mouth. I dealt with base narrow canines in one of my Standards. You can search and you will see I posted about it in response to other threads here. I was already aware of the issue, it is not uncommon in some lines with fairly refined headpieces. Also, my breeder disclosed to me that my girl, and a couple other pups in the litter, had the issue and we discussed so I knew all about it before I brought my girl home. I monitored regularly and when the canines poked the roof of her mouth I had my regular vet pull them. When the adult lower canines came in, they were still inside so I saw a board-certified dentist at my specialty practice. They felt my pup's particular issue was mild enough that ball therapy as well as exerting outward pressure on them several times a day would encourage them to move into correct placement, which is what our outcome was. She wound up with a perfect bite and placement. I would encourage you to consult a vet dentist now for a second opinion to make sure you do everything you can to encourage correct placement without possible need for surgery later on. Sometimes early intervention is all that is needed. Also to make sure the lower teeth don't continue to further puncture the roof of the mouth.


Thanks and darn it.
This breeder said she had "never had a pup need surgery" but in the same conversation said it is quite common and she had base narrow in some of her pups.

This seems contradictory to me, if the deciduous canines are poking into the palate then that requires surgery to remove the canines.

So my puppy is tiny, he is only 3.6kg and 9 weeks, I assume he is going to grow a lot in the next 3-6 weeks so is it possible his jaw will grow as well as his teeth?

Off to the vet at 9.20am


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

It does not require surgery. At worst the vet would just pull the puppy teeth out so that they don't poke holes in the roof of puppy's mouth and so they don't push the adult teeth out of whack as they are growing in. Usually even that is not required, it just takes a bit of putting outward pressure on the adult teeth as they come in.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

^ ^ What reraven said. When Mia had her teeth pulled, I was a bit naive and trusted my former vet, who recommended surgery to remove the two lower canines. He was also working towards a veterinary dentistry certification and needed to perform a certain number of surgeries. You do the math. At least I got a discount.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Just wanted to update everyone. My vet sent photos off to a specialist for his opinion.
She said she has seen far worse and that they don't appear to be causing too much damage and also she doesn't think that his bottom canines will grow much more and make any bigger holes in his gums.

Of course she can't predict what will happen with his adult teeth but certainly not rushing in to anything.

I will update later x


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

That's reassuring news!


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## PB4EVR (Dec 26, 2018)

My SPOO had base narrow canines. His lower deciduous (baby) canines were removed because they were hitting the roof of his mouth (easily done by my regular vet). He also had to have an upper deciduous canine removed because the permanent tooth was starting to come in. Since his permanent lower canines were not "clearing" the upper gum I went to a board certified dentist who said the *only* solution was to remove them. Got a second opinion from another board certified dentist -- he said to wait, try ball therapy and if they didn't clear we could do braces. One side cleared but, the other did not so, vet did a "gingivectomy" -- simple procedure where a small groove is made in the upper gum which gives the lower canine a place to sit. My boy's teeth are perfect. Must admit, I was very nervous about the whole thing -- just grateful I got a second opinion. A friend had a SPOO with base narrow canines. He went to the same dentist I went to the first time and was told his girl had to have her teeth pulled. He waited and her teeth cleared on their own. Your puppy sounds wonderful!


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Hi, just wanted to update again.
The specialist recommended removal of both the lower canines.
However my vet also spoke to the breeders vet and we decided not to pull the baby teeth and to wait and see what happens til his next check up at 11 weeks.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

firstspoo said:


> Hi, just wanted to update again.
> The specialist recommended removal of both the lower canines.
> However my vet also spoke to the breeders vet and we decided not to pull the baby teeth and to wait and see what happens til his next check up at 11 weeks.


If you are not going to pull the baby teeth (which really is not a big deal, as noted, I went through it) be sure to keep a super close watch on his upper palate to make sure the bottom teeth don't puncture it. Those baby teeth (I lovingly refer to them as shark teeth) as you know, are sharp as heck, and even a few days can make a change in their contact/pressure against the roof.....


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Thanks Eclipse, yep I am checking every day x


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

An update.
The right side has basically worked itself good. He does have a little channel carved into his gum on that side but the whole canine now sits on the outside of the gum.

The left side is still sticking up into his gum but I think it has improved a bit.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so glad you're keeping us updated. 

Are you doing ball therapy? I imagine puppy teeth are pretty easy to move.


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I'm so glad you're keeping us updated.
> 
> Are you doing ball therapy? I imagine puppy teeth are pretty easy to move.


He is not super keen on the ball but we play a lot of tug. Not sure if that has helped.
I do a little bit of gentle pressure on the affected side a couple of times a day.
I was advised not to be over zealous by my vet as there is not a lot of data around it and it's not a recommended therapy from the specialists perspective.

I think it is just him growing to be honest.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

firstspoo said:


> He is not super keen on the ball but we play a lot of tug. Not sure if that has helped.
> I do a little bit of gentle pressure on the affected side a couple of times a day.
> I was advised not to be over zealous by my vet as there is not a lot of data around it and it's not a recommended therapy from the specialists perspective.
> 
> I think it is just him growing to be honest.


If it's not recommended by the specialist, I'd probably not do it either. Their recommendations would trump any I received from my vet.

Will keep my fingers crossed those adult teeth come in exactly where they should!


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> If it's not recommended by the specialist, I'd probably not do it either. Their recommendations would trump any I received from my vet.
> 
> Will keep my fingers crossed those adult teeth come in exactly where they should!


To clarify, it's not recommended in deciduous teeth due to the fact the adult buds are underneath and could potentially be displaced.

But it is obviously a therapy in adult teeth.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

firstspoo said:


> To clarify, it's not recommended in deciduous teeth due to the fact the adult buds are underneath and could potentially be displaced.
> 
> But it is obviously a therapy in adult teeth.


That's important information. Thanks for clarifying. Is the specialist at all concerned about the teeth sticking into the gums?


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

PeggyTheParti said:


> That's important information. Thanks for clarifying. Is the specialist at all concerned about the teeth sticking into the gums?


Yes the specialist recommended to pull the baby canines at 9 weeks.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

I'm wondering how this has turned out, firstspoo? Has your pup lost his baby teeth yet? We are in the midst of this with Oona, and are heading toward dental surgery this week to have the problem tooth taken out. Our breeder also told us something similar (it's normal, play with a good tennis ball a lot). What both the vet and specialist told me is that the hole in the palate acts as an anchor and the baby tooth will not move out on its own, and not to try to move the baby tooth. Oona's is several mm displaced inward. I was on the fence about getting it taken out since I figured she would lose it soon anyway, but the risk of infection or fistula with a semi-permanent palate injury is not something I'm comfortable with waiting out. Plus I read that sometimes puppies with narrow canines sometimes also hang onto their baby teeth and the adult teeth will come in inside of the deciduous teeth. Anyway best of luck and I hope it turns out alright for all the puppies!


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Oonapup said:


> I'm wondering how this has turned out, firstspoo? Has your pup lost his baby teeth yet? We are in the midst of this with Oona, and are heading toward dental surgery this week to have the problem tooth taken out. Our breeder also told us something similar (it's normal, play with a good tennis ball a lot). What both the vet and specialist told me is that the hole in the palate acts as an anchor and the baby tooth will not move out on its own, and not to try to move the baby tooth. Oona's is several mm displaced inward. I was on the fence about getting it taken out since I figured she would lose it soon anyway, but the risk of infection or fistula with a semi-permanent palate injury is not something I'm comfortable with waiting out. Plus I read that sometimes puppies with narrow canines sometimes also hang onto their baby teeth and the adult teeth will come in inside of the deciduous teeth. Anyway best of luck and I hope it turns out alright for all the puppies!


Hello 
An update for you:
My pup has not lost any of his baby teeth yet, he is 14 weeks old.

Both of his lower canines are now clearing his upper gum. They did move out on their own, or perhaps the teeth didn't move at all and it is just jaw growth that allowed this. He has grown a great deal in 5 weeks!

One side is only _just_ clearing and on both sides he has little gouges or channels sort of carved into his gums. It sounds bad but it really isn't. It's very mild. If I thought it looked painful or concerning I'd be straight to the vet.

What it does mean though is that his jaws haven't locked together at all in the way you describe above (and this was one of my concerns initially when weighing up whether to extract or not.)

It is possible that his adult teeth may come in narrow also, especially as the baby ones are only just making it, but we will cross that bridge later.

How old is Oona? It all depends on how bad they are, my pups were always very mild, not going in to the gum very deep.


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

firstspoo said:


> Hello
> An update for you:
> My pup has not lost any of his baby teeth yet, he is 14 weeks old.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the update! Oona is 12 weeks. "Narrow lower canines" was noted on her 8 wk health report from when I picked her up but I didn't know what it meant (I thought it meant the teeth themselves were narrow and didn't recognize that her bite wasn't normal) and the breeder didn't even mention it so it was not on my radar as a problem. The canine on the left is placed fine now but maybe that one was never a problem. The one on the right is pointing straight up instead of curving out, and going into her palate instead of sitting outside her gum. It sounds like your puppy's is much milder and might resolve as he grows the teeth come out. Our dental vet is recommending we start ball therapy once she's healed to help the adult tooth come in correctly. I imagine you can also do that once your puppy's baby canines come out. I don't think it can hurt anyway (if you're not pushing on the baby teeth in question any more).


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## firstspoo (Aug 11, 2020)

Oonapup said:


> Thanks for the update! Oona is 12 weeks. "Narrow lower canines" was noted on her 8 wk health report from when I picked her up but I didn't know what it meant (I thought it meant the teeth themselves were narrow and didn't recognize that her bite wasn't normal) and the breeder didn't even mention it so it was not on my radar as a problem. The canine on the left is placed fine now but maybe that one was never a problem. The one on the right is pointing straight up instead of curving out, and going into her palate instead of sitting outside her gum. It sounds like your puppy's is much milder and might resolve as he grows the teeth come out. Our dental vet is recommending we start ball therapy once she's healed to help the adult tooth come in correctly. I imagine you can also do that once your puppy's baby canines come out. I don't think it can hurt anyway (if you're not pushing on the baby teeth in question any more).


Absolutely will be doing manual therapy on the adult canines x


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