# Does anyone here have...



## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

ToyPoodle46 said:


> A toy poodle with blue eyes? Their so cute & hard to find.


I don't. But some "blue merle Poodles" have blue eyes; see e.g., Merle Poodles? Why??? - Silver & Blue Merle Miniature Poodles


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Wow, i didnt know that. Thanks for the site and link. Will check it out


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

...I'm not sure if you checked that site out any further than the merle poodles page, but that is not a breeder I would want involved with, even as a pet...

also, I can't imagine that blue eyes are something ANY breeder would be aiming for...



Poodle Breed Standard said:


> Head and Expression
> (a) Eyes-- very dark, oval in shape and set far enough apart and positioned to create an alert intelligent expression. Major fault: eyes round, protruding, large or very light.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Keith nailed it on the head :afraid:

Not to mention there have been some "speculation" of health issues with in the merles....


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Why do you say that? Have you met the breeder?...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Uhh...no I don't need to meet that breeder to know they do not have the best breeding practices!

They are breeding dogs that do not meet the breed standards (the one I posted is directly correlating with your question about dogs with blue eyes...)

also go look at the tab to the left of their page, you'll see a link to Avail: Proven Sire...that page is about how they're willing to trade a dog or "discount" it or are willing to take payments on it because they're rehoming it

if you're looking for a puppy (with...or without a HUGE fault such as blue eyes) you should look for a reputable breeder one that breeds to the breed standard and isn't willing to heavily discount their dogs price because the merchandise isn't moving

wanted to add another reason they seem awful...they have 15 puppies listed for available or accepting deposits for...


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Keithsomething said:


> ...I'm not sure if you checked that site out any further than the merle poodles page, but that is not a breeder I would want involved with, even as a pet...
> 
> also, I can't imagine that blue eyes are something ANY breeder would be aiming for...


 
I agree. In addition, merle is a dangerous gene to be breeding and there are some geneticists who believe it should _not_ be bred at all, in any breed. There are considerable health issues associated with the genetics involved in producing this coloration.

I wasn't offering a recommendation, though, lol, just pointing out that "blue-eyed Poodles" are available. I did assume (perhaps, mistakenly) that the OP, since she is a "senior member" here, knows what the Breed Standard says.


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Your probably right... When i buy my puppy i will only buy it from a breeder that belongs to poodle club of America. I was just curious to know if anyone had a toy poodle with blue eyes, I never said I really wanted one. Thanks for letting me know about the site. Why do people recommend such site to others if their not responsible breeders.


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

ToyPoodle46 said:


> Your probably right... When i buy my puppy i will only buy it from a breeder that belongs to poodle club of America. I was just curious to know if anyone had a toy poodle with blue eyes, I never said I really wanted one. Thanks for letting me know about the site. Why do people recommend such site to others if their not responsible breeders.


'Responsible' is a term open to interpretation. You _could_ ask the question, for example, whether all breeders of parti-colored Poodles are irresponsible, because they breed a disqualified color. I suspect there would be disagreement on this. And C.C. Little (_The Inheritance of Coat Color in Dogs_) did suggest (iIrc) that merle should not be bred, but it continues to be bred and is an acceptible color in several breeds. So are all these breeders irresponsible ?

About merle : "We are interested in the _merle _phenotype because of its involvement in coat colour and developmental impairments. The _merle _phenotype is a dominant trait, with heterozygous dogs presenting a coat colour in which eumelanic regions are incompletely and irregularly diluted, leaving intensely pigmented patches. _Merle _is found throughout the body except on the pheomelanic regions of the black and tan coat colour (Figure 1A, 1B). These dogs often have heterochromia iridis or blue eyes and often have a lack of retinal pigment visible on the fundus. Homozygous _merle _dogs display a more severe phenotype. The dogs are usually very pale, sometimes completely white and present developmental defects with an incomplete penetrance, microphthalmia and hearing loss (Figure 1C, 1D). In _merle _European lineages, microphthalmia and/or hearing loss are not frequently observed as breeders avoid mating _merle _dogs to avoid these developmental defects. However, several veterinary studies on the "_merle _syndrome", reported retinal defects [17], microphthalmia and coloboma [18]. The non-survival or degeneration of melanocytes in the cochlea have been suggested to explain hearing loss [19]." ( Coat colour in dogs: identification of the Merle locus in the Australian shepherd breed )


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Right. Thanks to both of you. It was just a simple question, which I highly doubt that anyone on this forum would a own a blue eyed toy poodle. But anyways, I am only interested in red toy poodles so ya...


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

well how were we to interpret your original post?

Thats the unfortunate thing about the internet, there is no voice inclination or exterior context that may sway a conversation...so when you said "Their so cute & hard to find" Nu2Poodles provided you a link to where you could find one, she was not promoting this breeder (as she later clarified) because she was under the impression you would know or have a slight under standing of the breed standard 

No matter the breeders discussed on this forum I think it is under the discretion of every single person to do their OWN research into a breeder, there are tons of people here (including myself) that would happily weigh in on whether or not a breeder seems reputable but we do not (in most cases) have personal experience with said breeder just the information we can garner from the internet and other people...

I hope you obtain your dream poodle, there are several red toy breeders I would recommend...but again you should do your own research


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Okay i see. But the main purpose for my question was to see if anyone on this forum owned one (which i highly doubted) Please feel free to share the recommended poodle breeders you know. Im open to that.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Blue eyes are striking, no doubt. But given the issues poodles already have with PRA, and given the information so helpfully posted by nu2poodles about the potential for serious vision problems with merles, all I can say is anyone deliberately breeding for blue eyes is playing with fire, with long term consequences for the breed. There should be a law . . . .


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

They are really cute. I never knew they blue eyed toy poodles had very serious health issues... Blue eyes are still cute though... 

Not that im looking for one with blue eyes, i was just wondering if anyone on this forum owned one...


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

LEUllman said:


> Blue eyes are striking, no doubt. But given the issues poodles already have with PRA, and given the information so helpfully posted by nu2poodles about the potential for serious vision problems with merles, all I can say is anyone deliberately breeding for blue eyes is playing with fire, with long term consequences for the breed. There should be a law . . . .


Hi LEUllman,

I have seen it stated that there are two sources of blue eyes in dogs, so it may be that there is a simple recessive (like blue eyes in people). But I have not seen this explained anywhere. I think blue eyes occur with some frequency in Huskies, for example, but I don't know the genetics. (Perhaps Little talked about this, but I don't remember).

BTW, unless there is a recessive gene for "blue eyes" _already in the Poodle gene pool_, one would either have to have a mutation that adds it to the pool or would have to go outside the breed to get blue eyes. In looking around about this, I did see Cockapoos w/blue eyes advertised. There is probably almost every variation imaginable, if you look hard enough.

I tend to agree that breeding the merle gene is risky to the animals involved and that it should _not_ be bred. But I also believe that the same goes for all recessive traits (and the polygenic ones we can identify) that are detrimental to the well-being of the animal. That means that although you can breed a known vonWillebrands carrier to a known non-carrier, for example, and be assured you will get a litter where no pups will have (express) vonWillebrands, it is _not OK._ You have potentially produced more _carriers_. I suppose such a breeding could be marginally acceptable if all the progeny are to be spayed or neutered, but it hardly makes sense other than $$ to do such a breeding.

I suspect the breeders on this board know more than I do about this.


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## BambiDog (Apr 24, 2011)

I know this thread is old and dead... BUT

Just wanted to reiterate about merle genetics being a bit dodgy. Merle to merle breeding can apparently cause serious life threatening problems. Double merles can be born blind and/or deaf and with other physical problems. Apparently there have been some to be born without any eyes at all. I read this about Shelties somewhere in particular a year or so ago. 

Same thing with Roans in horses.

On the plus side, Colour genetics make me excited about university... I see a colour genetics and how they relate to other physical attributes dissertation in my future lol
Concentrating on Canines of course!

(Unfortunately I know it's all going to be about proteins which means lots of BioChem modules... w00t.)


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## ToyPoodle46 (Oct 10, 2010)

Poor merle puppies...


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## minipoodlelover (Jul 25, 2011)

Yikes!! This web site and those poor dogs really freak me out. 

Her reason for breeding for merles and/or blue eyes is to keep her poodles out of kill shelters?? That strikes me as one HUGE rationalization.

Despite the folksy tone of this web site, make no mistake, there are slick marketing techniques being employed here. Run, and run fast!


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Hi. I don't have a toy but a white mini with blue eyes. Both his parents were white mini's with black eyes so I'm guessing the blue eyes came from somewhere along the genes?


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## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

While blue eyes are "pretty"....that pic of the poodle with blue eyes kind of freaked me out! I love the "poodle eyes" that my boy gives me all the time! I cant imagine them being blue poodle eyes!! Yikes! 

I like the soulful brown/black eyes much better!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Ginagbaby1 said:


> Hi. I don't have a toy but a white mini with blue eyes. Both his parents were white mini's with black eyes so I'm guessing the blue eyes came from somewhere along the genes?


His blue eyes come from another breed... who know what or when or where it was introduced. Although from what I have read, the blue eyes probably came from a breed that carries the blue merle gene. A lot of people are breeding these blue merel poodles, although poodles don't naturally care the gene for blue merle or blue eyes.


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## Ginagbaby1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks Paddleaddict. That does make sense. I've had one person ask me if Casper is blind, another person ask me if he is deaf, and someone ask me if he was albino. We never sought out to get a poodle with blue eyes but when we went to the breeder, he was the one that "pulled our heart strings" so we went with him not knowing that their were health risks associated. Luckilly so far he's got healthy eyes and healthy ears.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Ginagbaby1 said:


> Thanks Paddleaddict. That does make sense. I've had one person ask me if Casper is blind, another person ask me if he is deaf, and someone ask me if he was albino. We never sought out to get a poodle with blue eyes but when we went to the breeder, he was the one that "pulled our heart strings" so we went with him not knowing that their were health risks associated. Luckilly so far he's got healthy eyes and healthy ears.


Glad to hear his eyesight and hearing are OK. One thing to watch out for in the future is PRA. If your breeder is breeding blue-eyed poodles, I am guessing she did not test the parents for PRA (a genetic test). PRA was once rampant in toy and mini poodles. Reputable breeders test their dogs before breeding them to be sure they don't have the gene that can pass on the disease.

Here is some good information: 
PRA Testing in Poodles

From the Poodle Club of America website:

PRA
Progressive retinal atrophy (PRA) refers to a group of diseases affecting the retina at the back of the eye. These diseases cause the cells of the retina, which initially look and function normally, to become increasingly abnormal over time. In most cases, given a long life, the eventual outcome is blindness. Some form of PRA has been recognized in over 100 canine purebreds, and at present there are 7 different genetic types of PRA described.

PRA is inherited, meaning the disease genes that cause PRA are passed from generation to generation. In Toy and Miniature Poodles one specific type of recessively inherited PRA predominates, although there are clues indicating at least one more type is present at a low frequency in the breed. This predominant form of PRA in Toys and Miniatures is the progressive rod-cone degeneration (prcd) form of PRA. Rod cells in the retina slowly lose normal function, resulting in diminished vision in dim light situations and diminished field of vision. Subsequently, cone cells in the retina lose normal function, resulting in diminished vision in daylight situations and eventual total blindness. The age of onset and the rate of disease progression are variable among different breeds, within the same breed and within the same litter. In general for Toys and Miniatures, diagnosis of prcd-PRA made around 3 years of age, based on an eye exam by a veterinary ophthalmologist. Some prcd-PRA affected dogs retain some useful vision throughout their life, while others progress to blindness in mid-life. Unfortunately there is no treatment or cure for PRA.

A genetic test, offered by OptiGen, is used to identify Toys and Miniatures as Pattern A – normal, Pattern B – probably carrier, and Pattern C – probably affected. Within the first 1000 Toys and Miniatures tested by OptiGen, 3-4% are Pattern C and 25-30% are Pattern B. Use of this test for breeding programs is discussed at OptiGen’s website. Identification of breeding animals affected with prcd-PRA or carriers of prcd-PRA is essential to avoid producing affected offspring. This genetic test is not offered for Standard Poodles, since prcd-PRA is not yet a proven cause of blindness in Standards.

Not all retinal disease is PRA and not all PRA is the form currently detectable in your breed. Accurate diagnosis is essential. A dog can test as normal or carrier, yet be affected by a different type of PRA. Although more than one type of retinal degeneration probably occurs in every breed, by far the most common type of PRA for Toys and Miniatures is prcd-PRA.

Yearly eye examinations for general eye health should be done on breeding dogs by a veterinary ophthalmologist, even after testing by OptiGen. The Canine Eye Registration Foundation (CERF) maintains a registry.


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