# The Amish As Puppy Millers...A MUST See!



## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_These links were posted on my feed on Face Book by a friend. I believe it is something that the public needs to be aware of so I am posting them here.

This is the post form FB:_

Please Share: BOYCOTT THE AMISH!! Do not be misled into supporting or purchasing any products or goods that are made or in any way affiliated with the Amish. Apparently there are some holiday products now on the market made by "Amish Wood Works", and a portion of all purchases are being donated back to animal-related causes. How ironic is that?? What most people don't know is the puppy mill trade is dominated by the Amish. Here is an interesting Nightline undercover report: Puppies 'Viewed as Livestock' in Amish Community, Says Rescue Advocate - ABC News And even more disturbing and disheartening is this graphic video of an actual Amish puppy mill: Indiana Amish Puppymill - YouTube 
_Support animal rights and put an end to animal abuse and cruelty by refusing to purchase any Amish goods or services. Thank you._


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I seen this on your wall and I wasn't sure how or if I should respond. 

I believe some of the Amish are in fact doing awful, cruel and unforgivable things however I find people addressing issues like this a bit stereo-typical. 

I cannot fairly group all Amish into this type of attention because I don't believe all Amish people do this (although I see its a growing trend) I wouldn't buy from known abusers though and messages like this do make us all a bit more aware.

That video was heart breaking.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

Olie said:


> I seen this on your wall and I wasn't sure how or if I should respond.
> 
> I believe some of the Amish are in fact doing awful, cruel and unforgivable things however I find people addressing issues like this a bit stereo-typical.
> 
> ...


I agree that grouping all of any race/nationality/religion/etc. into generalities is never good & leads to animosity & confusion. (I don't think that's your intention at all!)

I would be willing to boycott anyone who is knowingly abusing another living creature, no matter who they are.

Just my opinion.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I too have seen this posted around and I have held my tongue...BUT I'd be curious to know if anyone here has ever spent time with an ACTUAL amish person? Or if they have any idea how they run their communities? OR if they even comprehend the fundamental values of this sub-culture in the United States?

My immediate family (mother, father, sister, myself) have moved all over this part of the country since I was born, BUT one of my mothers dearest friends is an amish woman that runs her own business selling quilts, and she is hands down the sweetest woman I have EVER had the pleasure of meeting in my life. 

I'll explain one FACET of the amish community, when a family brings in money (no matter where its from) it's placed in a communal pot. They don't believe in keeping their things to themselves becasue they have no need for money to purchase everyday things (seeing as they make most of everything they own...) So if one of the people owned a puppy mill (Which I do not condone...) the vast majority of the money they earn from it would be placed in a communal pot to help build homes, barns, churches, or whatever big purchases their Church/Community needs (they of course keep enough money for themselves to run their households)
That is where this boycott is getting it's misinformation...BUT you should all be aware that not every Amish community has millers living in it, nor do they condone the maltreatment of Gods animals

Now on to this specific post being posted everywhere...Would you suddenly decide you wouldn't buy anything from China/Asia because they employ children to make some of the products the distribute? Or would you be more inclined to stop eating Tacos becasue the largest importer of drugs into our country is Mexico?
Racism is Racism...the end


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

Thanks Keithsomething, for your post. The whole post hit me wrong as well. No, I DON'T condone puppy mills either. But I cannot stomach a boycott against any and all Amish products/work based on the chance that it may or may not be supporting a puppy mill. This is a horrible assumption/generalization in my opinion. I don't personally know any Amish/Mennonite, but have found their way of life/beliefs fascinating for some time. Thanks for sharing some background on their community.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

No need to thank me April...I'm fascinated by all of the sub-cultures in our country but I happen to have a strong tie to the Amish community and I hate to see them smeared like this...a few years back there was a scandal in one community that has tainted everyone's opinion of all Amish and it just isn't fair to me....BUT that may be because I'm a member of a sub-culture that isn't given a fair chance by the majority most of the time as well :]

It may sound harsh but I view all of this as hate mongering, puppy mills are disgusting yes...but to blame all Amish for a fews misdeeds is just as wrong as the millers themselves!

I'd also add, that my aunt loves her Amish built home and I adore my Amish made quilt


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Don't just boycott an Amish puppymill, boycott _all _puppymills.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Well....when rushing, you are bound to mess yourself up. I posted this in its entirety just before leaving for work and should have paid more attention to the fact that it was calling for a boycott of all Amish goods. I should have taken the time to reread it and made my view clear as it does not entirely agree with the original poster. _

_I do not agree with boycotting all Amish for the ones who are running the puppy mills. I know that a generality is never a good thing in lumping all peoples of a race, religion, etc. Surely there are many good Amis people doing very good things. I have seen the quality of thier work in shops. _

_I do appologize for presenting this badly. My intention was to bring attention to the fact that this is happening with some of the Amish and that they apparently are not able to prosecute for such crimes because it an acceptable practice where they live._


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _Well....when rushing, you are bound to mess yourself up. I posted this in its entirety just before leaving for work and should have paid more attention to the fact that it was calling for a boycott of all Amish goods. I should have taken the time to reread it and made my view clear as it does not entirely agree with the original poster. _
> 
> _I do not agree with boycotting all Amish for the ones who are running the puppy mills. I know that a generality is never a good thing in lumping all peoples of a race, religion, etc. Surely there are many good Amis people doing very good things. I have seen the quality of thier work in shops. _
> 
> _I do appologize for presenting this badly. My intention was to bring attention to the fact that this is happening with some of the Amish and that they apparently are not able to prosecute for such crimes because it an acceptable practice where they live._


No harm, no foul. I read it as boycotting any and all goods that are produced and sold to support puppy mills. Maybe I read it fast, but I got the "right" message. Ban all puppy mills and products that support them!


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## flightsoffancy (Nov 9, 2011)

Another documentary regarding this issue is "Madonna of the mills" on HBO. It is a very sad story and discusses the conspiracy with the Dept of Ag, who is there to protect the animals, and the Amish communities as well as many Midwestern farm communities who can no longer make a living at farming. They have picked up Puppy Milling as their new cash crop. An eye opener for sure!
Thank you for posting the link.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Debby you are a very kind, human and dog loving person - I knew your message was about the mills - I just wish their delivery was better.


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## Marciemae (Aug 15, 2011)

*Puppy Mills Are Everywhere!*

Caution.....this video is pretty graphic!






There is a national mill dog rescue about an hour from where I live and they are doing amazing things!

NMDR Home


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Marciemae said:


> Caution.....this video is pretty graphic!
> 
> CAPS vs. Bauck - YouTube
> 
> ...


_Certainly they are everywhere. What really bothered me in the video was the ending where it was turned over to the prosecuter but he would not prosecute for the crime because he believed that he couldn't get a conviction in that county. I think this is a very sad statement regarding how so many people are still in the dark ages concering the welfare of the animals in our care. As I said earlier, I wouldn't even do the things he did to those dog to cattle, pigs, goats and other farm animals. We use these animals for the purpose of feeding ourselves or making some profit; the least we can expect of those responsible for God's creatures is to treat them with loving respect and care._


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I can't watch it. I tried, but I just can't. Nothing breaks my heart more or makes me angrier than people taking advantage of the helpless. 

Not all Amish are puppy millers. Sure, be angry with the ones who are, but not with all of them. You can't condemn an entire group for the transgressions of the few. That is how the world got in the paranoid mess it is in right now.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have long held the Amish in high regard. Years ago I spent several weeks in French Creek camping (no electric power, no running water unless you primed the hand pump). I admired their beautifully tended farms and every cow, horse and pig I saw was the picture of health. I did not have personal interaction but my impression was of a hard working highly principled people. This belief was cemented by the reaction of the Amish community to the murder of 5 Amish schoolgirls in 2007. The Amish forgave the murders and gave comfort to the family of the murderer and even attended his funeral and raised money for the family of ther murderer. These puppy mills exist but I have a hard time reconciling this with what I have seen of the Amish. I also cannot watch the video - this type of thing would honestly haunt me for years. I wont be boycotting the Amish; by I believe that this to be the exception not the rule. I do think your post is valuable in that it shows that we must be vigilent in looking into the background of dogs that we purchase - even from sources that we would have considered impeccable in the past.


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## Marciemae (Aug 15, 2011)

The owner in the video (NOT AMISH) that I posted was actually brought to trial. The judge told the jury that the dogs are not "companion" dogs, and are considered livestock by the USDA!!!!! (which is why they couldn't charge her with a felony) She was found guilty of misdemeanors, got fined and sentenced to a short jail time. But get this...she was given work release which meant that she could go back to her mill every day (and continue to abuse the animals) while serving her sentence!!!!!!

I believe there are pet welfare agencies, attorneys, etc. who are pushing to have the dogs recognized as "companions".

I agree, spoospirit, even livestock shouldn't be tortured and I have a very difficult time understanding the USDA's stance on any of this!!!!!!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Marciemae said:


> The owner in the video (NOT AMISH) that I posted was actually brought to trial. The judge told the jury that the dogs are not "companion" dogs, and are considered livestock by the USDA!!!!! (which is why they couldn't charge her with a felony) She was found guilty of misdemeanors, got fined and sentenced to a short jail time. But get this...she was given work release which meant that she could go back to her mill every day (and continue to abuse the animals) while serving her sentence!!!!!!
> 
> I believe there are pet welfare agencies, attorneys, etc. who are pushing to have the dogs recognized as "companions".
> 
> I agree, spoospirit, even livestock shouldn't be tortured and I have a very difficult time understanding the USDA's stance on any of this!!!!!!


:banghead:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> I have long held the Amish in high regard. Years ago I spent several weeks in French Creek camping (no electric power, no running water unless you primed the hand pump). I admired their beautifully tended farms and every cow, horse and pig I saw was the picture of health. I did not have personal interaction but my impression was of a hard working highly principled people. This belief was cemented by the reaction of the Amish community to the murder of 5 Amish schoolgirls in 2007. The Amish forgave the murders and gave comfort to the family of the murderer and even attended his funeral and raised money for the family of ther murderer. These puppy mills exist but I have a hard time reconciling this with what I have seen of the Amish. I also cannot watch the video - this type of thing would honestly haunt me for years. I wont be boycotting the Amish; by I believe that this to be the exception not the rule. I do think your post is valuable in that it shows that we must be vigilent in looking into the background of dogs that we purchase - even from sources that we would have considered impeccable in the past.


_I, too, have always thought of them as living the near perfect life. I guess no community, religion, race are exempt from having awful things happen among them. It was so shocking to see and hear an Amish man talking about how his 70 dogs and how they never leave their little cages, that they are bred every six months and when they can no longer produce, they are shot or injected with an overdose of antibiotics or whatever he has on hand. He was so matter of fact about it all as if it were the most normal thing in the world to do. He had a ****zu whose leg was chewed off by the dog in the next cage. It died within 20 minutes of getting to a vet, courtesy of the videographer. He was very matter of fact about the fact that he NEVER calls a vet unless a bitch is having trouble birthing. This didn't seem to bother him at all. 

It was very hard for me to reconcile the fact that this man from such a stringently religious community had no regard for the animals in his care other than for what they could produce and bring in financially. It was just frightening to listen to that video. And, even more frightening to find out that absolutely nothing was going to be done about it and it would be business as usual for him and pure hell for his dogs.

I am sure that the majority of Amish are good, loving people and the ones practicing puppy milling are not the norm._


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It is shocking that some Amish have fallen from their own teachings. You would have thought them all above monetary greed and coldheartedness. I guess they are just people after all. Some are bad and some are good, just like the rest of us.

By law dogs are property the same as livestock or your house. You own them. That's why the Department of Agriculture has such a conundrum with cats and dogs. You can't commit a felony against your own property. There isn't a government entity other than the USDA that addresses the rights of pets other than federal/state/local cruelty laws. 

I don't know what the answer is, I wish I did. I just hope that mill was shut down. One at a time, shut them down.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Hmmm. My experience of the Amish is that animal husbandry standards are pretty consistently lacking. I'm not surprised at their embrace of puppy milling as an endeavor. I used to live near a moderate-sized Amish community in Illinois, and the state of their horses was appalling. Thin, lame, sored, and still in harness, tied up in broiling heat or freezing cold for hours ... there seemed to be a consistent attitude of animals as commodity. It may look like a romantic lifestyle, but at what cost to the animals that support that lifestyle?


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

I acknowledge the stereotype with the Amish, as I do with all other cultures, races, etc. But I refuse to lay the blame on ALL members of that culture for the acts of just a few (maybe even most). I still believe in the good in humanity and that there are those whom are able to break out of the stereotypes. Besides, I have been BEGGING my husband to get me one of those little fireplaces they make and I think I may get lucky this Christmas!!  

Anyway, in the first article, I can't believe that guy is naive enough to think his dogs are actually _happier_ in those conditions!! The part that really gets me is this quote: "Unfortunately if a kennel breeds less than 60 dogs they can shoot them," he said. "If it's over 60 dogs they can't be shot."

SAY WHAT??? I honestly had no idea. I mean, I understand if the dog is aggressive, or maybe even horribly ill. But because it can't produce any more litters?! I am FAR from being one of those animal rights people, but this is just insane. And the other video, about overdosing them with worming medicine??


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I live right in the middle of Amish country (20min from Sugar Creek and an hour away from the original Yoder farm) and I have never seen a maltreated horse...perhaps the Amish you all know follow different teachings than the ones I've had the pleasure of meeting
Not that animal abuse/neglect doesn't happen...I've just never seen it from my Amish neighbors

I think it's all the communal tithing where this boycott crap came from...because they share everything with their community if a puppy mill was there it would benefit from the communal pot just like the salvage store, or the tree service (huge businesses here in my area)


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> ...perhaps the Amish you all know follow different teachings than the ones I've had the pleasure of meeting
> Not that animal abuse/neglect doesn't happen...I've just never seen it from my Amish neighbors


I have had extensive interaction for years now with some Amish and Mennonite families in Ohio - we are related by marriage (don't ask, its a very long story). I can tell you that the puppy mills do exist and I have had countless frustrating (and sometimes loud) discussions about the treatment of these poor dogs. I was told that the authorities really have no recourse and my complaints have been to no avail.

Do I think all Amish think this way? - No. Are there those that participate in this abhorant behavior? - Most Certainly. The family told me that the dogs are seen as a commodity, like a field of grain, and not living feeling beings. :angry:

Our extended family gatherings are quite eclectic to say the least and not all are millers (thankfully). Most people within these communities do have a lot to offer and aside from this, I do love interacting with them. I learn a lot, including how to say some Dutch words (I am told I have wonderful pronunciation) and how different the young people are during Rumspringa.


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## Theo'sMom (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm wondering if the Amish and Menonite people who are against treating animals that way speak out against it and if they do not speak out, why not? 

Others can put pressure on puppy millers to stop breeding in those conditions by not buying dogs from pet stores, by boycotting Amish/Menonite and other communities' goods who do support puppy mills, by educating the public etc.. but is their own community speaking out against the puppy mill practice and if not, why not? Being ostracized for immoral practices by your own community seems incredibly effective change promotion.

The pet store puppies in my upstate area come from these mills in PA. These are very sad looking creatures. I fell in love with a poodle who was so tiny and sickly looking when I would go there to get my fix before I got Theo (from a great breeder) but of course I didn't buy him.


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## patalina (Nov 8, 2011)

This is a very interesting article and something that I have suspected ever since my friend went to an Amish farm in Lancaster County to look at a Yorkie puppy and was not allowed to see the parents (RED FLAG!!!). However, I do agree that it isn't fair to taint the entire Amish community as a result of those that are involved in puppy mills. 
I'd like to add that I live in the Philadelphia/Main Line area (Bryn Mawr) and had a VERY hard time trying to adopt a puppy from Main Line Animal Rescue, the group that did the investigation in this piece, as they would not allow anyone who didn't have a fenced in yard to adopt a pet and were unresponsive to my phone calls and e-mails. Not to go off into a rant, but I feel as though a lot of rescues are really turning off prospective adopters with requirements like these, especially those that live in apartments or townhouses and want a smaller dog that would live indoors/never be outside off-leash. 
Anyway, I was wondering if with the rise of "designer dogs" that are poodle mixes you guys think that we'll see a huge rise in poodles being used by millers and ending up in shelters or rescues? I'm asking because this is how I wound up finding Louis and there were quite a few poodles and poodle mixes at the rescue  . Here's a link to the story that made me start wondering about this Humane Society of the High Plains so sad


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

muffin said:


> ...
> Anyway, in the first article, I can't believe that guy is naive enough to think his dogs are actually _happier_ in those conditions!! The part that really gets me is this quote: *"Unfortunately if a kennel breeds less than 60 dogs they can shoot them," he said. "If it's over 60 dogs they can't be shot."
> 
> SAY WHAT??? I honestly had no idea. I mean, I understand if the dog is aggressive, or maybe even horribly ill.* But because it can't produce any more litters?! I am FAR from being one of those animal rights people, but this is just insane. And the other video, about overdosing them with worming medicine??


Well, hopefully if a dog was deemed aggressive or beyond medical care (ill), s/he isn't _shot_, but humanely euthanized.


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Well ok I'm all for not judging a whole group and all that, but here is the problem I have with Amish breeders. They don't use high tech right? So no genetic screens, no health testing, no interface with on-line databases and registries. I'm not sure of this but I would think this is the case.

I understand responsible breeders did just fine before these things were available. But now that we have them, should we not insist they be used?

Talk of boycott aside, I would not buy from an Amish breeder for this reason. If I'm wrong and they do these tests, never mind. No Amish around here for me to not buy from anyway so it's all theoretical for me.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'd like to restate that I do not condone puppy mills, or the Amish breeding dogs in general...I think in most cases they're ill equipped as taem said to be breeders (no health testing, limited vet care, low quality dog food, etc.)

What I was quite upset with is the tone of the facebook post...I may read into these sort of things a bit more because of my own experiences, but I find when you wave blood in front of sharks they swarm...and to have hard working people suffer because of the misdeeds of a few is wrong...I don't want my posts to be misconstrued as me feeling these people have the right to abuse dogs (or any animal!) because they are not above the law...just ask Fred Abdala ;D (My Amish Neighbors...a county over...then you always end up with people like this that can ruin a decent persons reputation v.v; )


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I have only seen the video of this one particular Amish man and his "kennel." I don't know how the other Amish treat their dogs, but the news report on their investigation indicated that other Amish puppy millers do exist and use the same techniques. 

It is quite obvious in the video that these dogs are basically imprisoned in their little space. He openly admits that no dogs is ever let out of their cage for their lifetime. He also openly admits that no dog receives vetting for any reason other than if a bitch needs help birthing! So the idea that there would be any type of health testing done on any dog has to be out of the questions. Also, you can see that there are many breeds of dog in the video. I did not see a poodle, but that does not mean that poodles are not being bred there or crosses. I don't think that, in this particular instance, it is about making designer dogs with the doodle craze. The dogs I saw in the video were all purebreds of one type or another although some of them were so disgustingly filthy with their own feces and urine and matted that they were hard to identify.

The Amish man in the video also openly said that when dogs are no longer useful, he shoots them. Sometimes he overdoses them on antibiotics or whatever else he may have on hand. Animals are seen by him as a commodity and only a commodity.

I think that if the Amish community as a whole were to come together to put pressure on their members who are practicing such inhumane treatment of their breeding dogs it could make a difference. However, the video clearly states that the prosecutor, despite having all the evidence including the video in his possession, refused to prosecute because he felt he would not get a jury to convict. That would imply to me that the people in the community are not willing to step up and condemn this type of treatment to animals. So, I too am wondering why they will not step up and help put an end to this at least in their own communities. 

My sincere wish is that if there is enough exposure of operations like this, the good people of these communities will be pressured into rejecting these practices and give up the puppy millers to prosecution for their inhumane treatment to animals._


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> I'd like to restate that I do not condone puppy mills, or the Amish breeding dogs in general...I think in most cases they're ill equipped as taem said to be breeders (no health testing, limited vet care, low quality dog food, etc.)
> 
> What I was quite upset with is the tone of the facebook post...I may read into these sort of things a bit more because of my own experiences, but I find when you wave blood in front of sharks they swarm...and to have hard working people suffer because of the misdeeds of a few is wrong...I don't want my posts to be misconstrued as me feeling these people have the right to abuse dogs (or any animal!) because they are not above the law...just ask Fred Abdala ;D (My Amish Neighbors...a county over...then you always end up with people like this that can ruin a decent persons reputation v.v; )


_I fully understand where you are coming from, Keith. And I agree with you. As I said in my second post, I was remiss in not making clear what bothered me about the information in the post, and that I did not support boycotting the Amish people's products because of the puppy millers among them. That was a mistake I hope not to repeat again. 

As in all things, there are always a few who do something wrong and it should not set the tone for all. I think that most Amish people are lovely and I admire their faith and their practicality. I also love their products; simple but useful and of excellent quality. Their quilts are priceless. The plight of the puppy millers should not be allowed or encouraged to ruin a decent person's reputation. It is actually a greater sin to destroy a person's spirit than it is to destroy their body.

It is so disturbing that some of them are practicing some very bad breeding. But, then, I am against any and all puppy millers. One of the things that disturbed me the most was that the prosecutor wouldn't even take legal action and, in doing so, allowing this particular puppy miller to blissfully continue in mistreating the 70 dogs he has and pushing out puppies sick or healthy to pet stores for uneducated and unsuspecting buyers. 

I don't understand how dogs can be classified as 'commodities!' thus reducing the agencies abilities to step in and help the animals._


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Rowan said:


> Well, hopefully if a dog was deemed aggressive or beyond medical care (ill), s/he isn't _shot_, but humanely euthanized.


I completely agree with you, but from a legality standpoint it could make sense. I just don't understand how it is _legal_ to shoot a dog for no darn good reason other than she's too old to have puppies. That's just absurd to me!


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## Poodlesrule 1 (Jan 16, 2011)

When I was training obedience I met a couple involved in rescue in Ohio. They told me about puppy/dog auctions held in Ohio counties that had large numbers of Amish. The women and children would bring them for auction. Pet stores, breeders would buy them. Some rescues went in to try and buy some also. The dogs were put in the kids name when they took them to auction, I believe that meant the breeding program. I was told by this couple that the puppies not sold went back to the farm and they were drowned or killed by other inhumane means. I know that like all things not all Amish sects are alike but I also had a friend that purchased a draft pony that was taken to the auction by Amish that the mare was terrified of buggy whips. He believed she had been beaten . She was only afraid of buggy whips, not riding crops. Cruelty comes from all types of life, I try not to judge but I really find it hard not too.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

muffin said:


> I completely agree with you, but from a legality standpoint it could make sense. *I just don't understand how it is legal to shoot a dog for no darn good reason other than she's too old to have puppies. That's just absurd to me!*


I don't understand a lot of things, like why companion animals are still viewed as _property_. I don't understand how people can treat living creatures like yesterday's newspaper, and toss them out to the curb without a backward glance. I don't understand why people acquire dogs only to tie them up in the back yard with no food, water, companionship or vet care. I don't understand why the penalties for animal cruelty, neglect, and abuse are so flimsy. The list goes on...

I've always known that most people aren't like those of us on this forum, and it's why I appreciate chatting with everyone here. I had a rough week at work due to a dog-related crisis. A colleague had a poodle mix she claimed to love. At one point, she was going to get rid of her and I offered to take her (she knows I have poodles). She said her kids didn't spend enough time with the dog, etc. but then changed her mind and decided to keep her. I told her if anything changed, to let me know and I'd take her or help rehome her. Whatever it took to ensure the safety of this little girl. I even helped her with grooming advice, as the pup was getting matted. 

One day this little dog was let out in the front yard, forgotten and she ran off. The owner came to work and was like, "Oh, I'm so upset. Well, hopefully she'll turn up." 

I was dumbfounded. If you're so upset, why aren't you out there looking for her? She hadn't even called animal control for assistance. *shrug* Again, actions speak louder than words. I knew the inevitable was on the horizon.

On Thursday, I learned she gave the dog away, and quite possibly to the worst home of all the options involved (other people offered to take her). It apparently was a snap decision. She blurted out that the dog had to go, someone piped up with "I'll take her!" and the deal was done. There was no discussion regarding the situation, the breed, a home visit, what was best for the dog. Nothing. 

The dog in question is a small, young Schnoodle and she went to a very odd girl who already has 4 LARGE, unruly dogs who are confined to crates in the basement--or loose in the unfinished basement--while she works _two _jobs. (They used to be tied up outside.) These dogs aren't vetted and they certainly aren't groomed. They ate her birds because she left them in cages on the kitchen counter. She's not a responsible person (long story there, but I can't go into details), but suffice it to say I wouldn't trust her with one of my shirts. 

And yet this girl continues to claim how upset she is and how much she misses her dog. If you cared about your dog, you'd take your time ensuring she went to the best home possible. You'd do some research. Heck, you'd try and find a way to make the situation work so you could keep her, if at all possible. 

She says she adores the dog and that she needed a home where she'd get more attention and love. So she passes her off on a woman who works two jobs, etc. Where's the logic? 

Actions speak so much louder than words. Words are wind.


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Rowan - that is just awful. It makes me sad  Oh how I wish we could rescue all of them...



JE-UK said:


> Hmmm. My experience of the Amish is that animal husbandry standards are pretty consistently lacking. I'm not surprised at their embrace of puppy milling as an endeavor. I used to live near a moderate-sized Amish community in Illinois, and the state of their horses was appalling. Thin, lame, sored, and still in harness, tied up in broiling heat or freezing cold for hours ... there seemed to be a consistent attitude of animals as commodity. It may look like a romantic lifestyle, but at what cost to the animals that support that lifestyle?


I think this really gets to the heart of the matter. The lifestyle does indeed look picturesque until you get a real taste for it. Similar to an impressionist painting: it looks great from a distance but get too close and it just looks like a mess :act-up:

Their lives are messy close up just like ours. However, that in no way excuses them from this evil practice. Yep, I said it's evil. My former Mennonite brother-in-law, he married outside of the faith, is well aware that the breeding, care and the general topic of animals is off limits with me or a very heated discussion will follow. Anyone who knows me knows that I always try to be optimistic and consider the other side's point of view - I don't care for confrontation . But this topic of animal husbandry within his Amish/Mennonite family, I will get vocal. My BIL said that I would love to see all the dogs on his brother's farm. Well, it was vile and it made my mother-in law physically ill - now that's sayin' something. It is such a helpless feeling to see it and have no recourse. Oh this makes me crazy angry :angry:

So, I guess my point is that sometimes extreme measures like the posting by spoospirit is necessary in order to raise awareness and get a discussion started. Our interest is so fleeting & fickle with the amount of information that is thrown at us that maybe, just maybe, this is exactly what is needed to change these sad sad conditions. I guess I don't mind stepping on a few toes for this in order to get something done.


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## ekbaby734 (Jul 1, 2011)

I wish I could just Boycott all puppy mills!! Breaks My heart!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

ekbaby734 said:


> I wish I could just Boycott all puppy mills!! Breaks My heart!


I wish I had the money and (supernatural) power to take them all down and inflict karma on all the perps. Now _that's_ justice.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Lilah+Jasper said:


> Rowan - that is just awful. It makes me sad  Oh how I wish we could rescue all of them...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_That was basically the main reason why I posted the topic; awareness.

I want to thank everyone for a great debate on a difficult subject that was clean and respectful. I have learned a lot in this thread as I hope others have as well. 

My sincere hope after all is said and done is that there will be some type of movement for change that I can be a part of even if it closes only some of the puppy millers down._


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

It is better that these things get exposure. Hopefully as people become more aware of cruelty to animals - all animals, not just dogs, these things will become illegal and die out. I eat meat but there is no reason to raise animals in cruel conditions. Do puppy mills exist in Europe or is it just Americans who treat animals with such disregard? As to the Amish this post opened my eyes to the issue of Amish puppy mills. In the area I was in each animal was the picture of health. My summers were spent on my uncle's farm and I would be able to tell if an animal was not being well tended. The Amish are a very private people. I can only pray that there are some in their community that are working behind the scenes to stop this animal abuse.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

Rowan, that story is so heartbreaking!  I admire your self control to tolerate a coworker like that! It absolutely drives me crazy when people keep their dogs out in the yard all day and yet have the nerve to call them a member of their family. It's like, why even get a dog?? Unless they like picking up poo and having a constant headache, why bother? I certainly wouldn't want my dogs if I didn't get to enjoy everything else about them in return for all that hard work!!

Your post did make me think about my husky who I rehomed a few months ago. I do talk about how much I miss her and all that, even though it was my choice to give her up. She was a very much loved family member and we did enjoy every minute with her, but at some point I had to think about whether she loved every minute with us. I am positive she had a great life with us and we were fully capable of keeping her, but she was just TOO good of a dog to only be enjoyed by us. It was selfish of my to keep her cooped up in this apartment while she patiently waited for her walks or trip to the dog park. We're big homebodies, so I know she'd never get to go on any adventurous hikes or explorations, we don't have a yard or any other dogs for her to play with. She was completely fine with it, she enjoyed lazing around with us just as well, but I just KNOW she deserved a better lifestyle. I pondered it for months, and the more I thought about it, the more I knew that there are families _dying_ to have a dog like her who could give her so much more.

I still question if I did the right thing and if maybe, my selfishness in keeping her could have been justified because we loved her that much. So I guess I talk the same talk as your colleague, and I suppose some people might view my surrender of Kenzie in the same light. I might regret my decision at times, but I do not regret the family I gave her to. They are simply amazing, and everything I could ever hope to attain in my own future. I could not have asked for a better family for Kenzie. 

I also think I may have jumped the gun in getting Gracie so soon afterward, and it probably makes me seem all the more senseless. However it makes me seem, I am thankful for the time I had Kenzie and also for the family she has now, and I am thankful to have Gracie in my life now.


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## muffin (Oct 15, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _My sincere hope after all is said and done is that there will be some type of movement for change that I can be a part of even if it closes only some of the puppy millers down._


I completely agree! Even if one mill gets shut down, that's still HUNDREDS of puppies each year that can be rescued from shelters instead. Imagine what an impact that could have in a town! And I am glad you posted about the Amish puppy mills, many people might overlook them as being capable of such a shameless act. I mean, their animals are their livelihood so why would they ever mistreat them? I'm not saying all do, but it's good that the possibility isn't overlooked.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I did not watch the video. I refuse to watch on the news or read about animal and child abuse in the newspaper ect. It haunts me for weeks and even years, so I just can't. The way to stop the puppy mills is to educate the buyers of puppies ! If they can't sale, they will stop producing a product. We have to know where our pet is comes from and be willing to pay a higher price for the breeder that does not take shortcuts.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Amish v. Old Order Mennonites*



Keithsomething said:


> ..BUT I'd be curious to know if anyone here has ever spent time with an ACTUAL amish person? Or if they have any idea how they run their communities? OR if they even comprehend the fundamental values of this sub-culture in the United States?
> 
> 
> Now on to this specific post being posted everywhere...Would you suddenly decide you wouldn't buy anything from China/Asia because they employ children to make some of the products the distribute? Or would you be more inclined to stop eating Tacos becasue the largest importer of drugs into our country is Mexico?
> Racism is Racism...the end


Dear Keithsomething;
I live about 15 minutes from an Old Order Amish/Mennonite community. This community does not use electricity or drive anything other than horses. No buttons, ladies in big bonnets and all dark clothes. 

The community of Old Order Mennonites near me, in Canada, is full of many nice people but they are tuned out from the *real world*. The secular society they live has many advantages but the one disadvantage is that they can be "conned" or taken advantage of very easily as the community is not educated and pretty naive about some worldly matters. 

Most of their children attend a Mennonite school until grade 8, but they are not often educated beyond a grade 4 level. Low educational levels leads to doing things the same way as years ago. So no testing of dogs needed for dog breeding. Being able to work hard is valued more than thinking outside the box or stepping over the line.

Our local kennel club has reached a few amish/mennonites breeders - not large breeders mind you, mostly a few labs - who bring their dogs/bitches to the yearly eye clinic held by the club. *Yah for education!!!!*

An hour and a half away, in Kitchener/Waterloo are live many other Amish. These Amish are not Old Order. They drive vehicles but keep the vehicles a dark/plain colour. They dress in much brighter colours and the women just wear little lace type hats on their heads. 

There is a *large difference* between these two types of communities. If readers changed the word Amish to either Catholic or Protestant the racism could be plainly seen. 

_*Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. ~Dennis Leary*_

All *puppy mills are wrong* - *breeding dogs for profit* is wrong. 

Let's punish these breeders by *educating the public*. Teach the public to only accept puppies from breeders who will *show you* were the puppies are born and raised, who *fully health test* according to Versatility in Poodles (Versatility In Poodles) and who will be *available* to the puppy *purchaser* for the *life of the puppy*.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Let's punish these breeders by *educating the public*. Teach the public to only accept puppies from breeders who will *show you* were the puppies are born and raised, who *fully health test* according to Versatility in Poodles (Versatility In Poodles) and who will be *available* to the puppy *purchaser* for the *life of the puppy*.


I completely agree Rayah!! <3

And I do agree there are very different levels in the Amish belief, our family friends are of the VERY oldest order no cars, no electricity, no phones (they actually have a phone about a mile from their house in case of emergencies), rarely interact with the outside community...and I agree they do tend to live in little bubbles and deny some of the goings on in their community, but thankfully OUR community of Amish neighbors here do not participate in puppy mills. I would never say that the Amish/Menonites do not own and operate the most deprave mills...I'm not blind, but I do know some of the sweetest people I've ever met in my life happen to be Amish and they would never treat an animal in that way (though again I agree they view animals as animals put on the earth to serve them...not something I agree with but it's not my place to judge them)


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## Lilah+Jasper (May 13, 2010)

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> There is a *large difference* between these two types of communities. If readers changed the word Amish to either Catholic or Protestant the racism could be plainly seen.
> 
> _*Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. ~Dennis Leary*_
> 
> ...


Agreed! :amen: 

Racism is a very strong word. There is a big difference in being prejudiced against a person/people as a whole vs not liking the business practice of a few. For example, I love my daughter without question. That being said, sometimes I dislike her actions. Does this exhibit racism on my part toward my daughter? Or teenagers? Nope - just a responsible parent (or neighbor or consumer or you fill in the blank here). My point? I didn't see any racism here - just a well mannered debate! :alberteinstein:

Rayah is spot on that education is the key here. I suspect an opportunity to educate is the very reason it was brought it to the forum. I too appreciate the civil discussion about a potentially very volatile subject. :clap2:


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Not to be pedantic, but the Amish aren't a race, so discrimination against them can't be considered racism.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

You are so correct JE-UK. I should have used a better word. But I really liked the quote. VBG 

:: Canadian Race Relations Foundation ::Fondation canadienne des relations raciales - Acknowledging Racism from the Canadian race relations
Defining Racism
_"Systemic discrimination "means practices or attitudes that have, whether by design or impact, the effect of limiting an individual`s or a group`s right to the opportunities generally available because of attributed rather than actual characteristics.... It is not a question of whether this discrimination is motivated by an intentional desire to obstruct someone's potential, or whether it is the accidental biproduct of innocently motivated practices or systems. If the barrier is affecting some groups in a disproportionately negative way, it is a signal that the practices that lead to this adverse impact may be discriminatory". (Abella, 1984). 
_

From


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

whatever PC or sociological term you want to put on it, I still feel it's racism...attacking a whole group of people is deplorable and I do not stand for it against ANY sub-culture in this country...though we do tend to attack the minorities (and in some cases the majority as it will)

I don't think Debbie's initial post was meant as a direct attack on Amish people, or meant in a malicious way...but I do think the original facebook post was! To boycott a whole community because of the misdeeds of a select few is dumb...and exactly what PeTA and the HSUS do to reputable breeders everytime they bash mills! _"No breeders a good breeder"_


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> whatever PC or sociological term you want to put on it, I still feel it's racism...attacking a whole group of people is deplorable and I do not stand for it against ANY sub-culture in this country...though we do tend to attack the minorities (and in some cases the majority as it will)
> 
> I don't think Debbie's initial post was meant as a direct attack on Amish people, or meant in a malicious way...but I do think the original facebook post was! To boycott a whole community because of the misdeeds of a select few is dumb...and exactly what PeTA and the HSUS do to reputable breeders everytime they bash mills! _"No breeders a good breeder"_


_Thank you, Keith. I never meant to be malicious toward the Amish as a people. I did say that earlier after I realized that I was not thinking when I put the op from FB on to open up discussion and should have made my position very clear to begin with. My bad. 

I really dislike punishing everyone for the few. It's ironic that I was just talking with Dianne a couple of days ago about the joint sanctions being put on Iran. It is a very complicated question and that is why I wanted to hear other people's opinion on the subject. When we put sanctions on a country, all suffer, the good (who are usually the majority) along with the bad. On a much smaller scale, I see the same thing happening with this call to boycott all Amish products. 

I am sure the majority of the Amish have nothing to do with the puppy millers in their community. Boycotting all their products to punish those few is disturbing. But, then, I did not realize that the Amish pool their resources for all to live from until I got an education here about that. It makes the whole picture more complicated. I still don't want to see all Amish people suffer for the few puppy millers among them. But, I think, since they are all sharing the money made from the sales of these puppies, the ones who are not involved in puppy milling should think about not supporting the ones who are. I can only imagine what a huge expectation this must be for a community that depends on each and every member for their existance.

I don't have a racist bone in my body. I have lived next to people from all over the world when I lived in the city. I love diversity and learning about other cultures. One of my best friends when my children were young was a young African couple and their two children. They were here while her husband was studying to be a doctor. When they left to be relocated, I hand made a 32" doll for each of the girls to hold on the bus; and, yes, the dolls were brown. Most of my doctors are foreign. I am fascinated by other cultures and have been known to ask them about their country and practices. Currently, my gastroenterologist, is Chinese. He is the cutest little man who wears big colorful bow ties and always has a smile on his face. We had a great conversation while I was in the hospital and again in his office last week about dogs. He loves dogs, owns a couple of greyhounds and was very interested in knowing all about our poodles; although he seemed pretty well educated about poodles to begin with. 

I take each and every person on their own merit. It is the only way to do things. It is the way that I want to be treated. 

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I feel bad that I allowed it to come across as racism on my part in the beginning.

I sure do hope that something effective will come along that I can support that will help shut down all puppy mills._


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Debbie, I never took your op as racist in anyway <3 
and I would NEVER accuse you or anyone else of being racist, it was the post on facebook that I found racist/prejudice/discriminatory (And I may have used that word a bit...liberally >.>) and I thought this was a better place to voice my opinions on it vs. facebook where I'm quite a bit more volatile XD

Please accept my apology if I came off accusing you or anyone as racist =\

can I comment that I do love the way this conversation went though XD we're all such mature adults!! :amen:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

Keithsomething said:


> Debbie, I never took your op as racist in anyway <3
> and I would NEVER accuse you or anyone else of being racist, it was the post on facebook that I found racist/prejudice/discriminatory (And I may have used that word a bit...liberally >.>) and I thought this was a better place to voice my opinions on it vs. facebook where I'm quite a bit more volatile XD
> 
> Please accept my apology if I came off accusing you or anyone as racist =\
> ...


_LOL....it is good that you know yourself so well. You made me laugh with your comment about FB. Thanks, I needed that.

There is no apology necessary, Keith. I started seeing a lot of remarks about racism and just got worried that I may have given the wrong impression at the beginning of this thread. I'm relieved to know that I have not offended anyone. 

You certainly may comment about the way this conversation has gone. Considering that it is a very sensitive subject, I am quite impressed with how everyone has dealt with it in a respectful way. I was a little afraid that it might go down in flames. It is a real joy to me to know that we are capable of mature conversations on sensitive material. 

Thank you everyone for a good debate. I have indeed learned new things in this thread and that is what the PF is for. _


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

spoospirit said:


> _I really dislike punishing everyone for the few. It's ironic that I was just talking with Dianne a couple of days ago about *the joint sanctions being put on Iran. It is a very complicated question and that is why I wanted to hear other people's opinion on the subject. When we put sanctions on a country, all suffer, the good (who are usually the majority) along with the bad. *On a much smaller scale, I see the same thing happening with this call to boycott all Amish products.
> _


These sanctions are often much more complex (for lack of a better word) than what's put out in the press for public consumption. I'll refrain from further comment as I'd be up all night, and because Iran is one of those "red button" topics for a lot of people. I've learned to steer clear of all "Politics & Current Event" discussions. :ahhhhh:


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

It's a complex question, and one I struggle with in cases where it seems the easy option to tar an entire group for the transgressions of a few.

I suppose the real question is, is there something intrinsic in the Amish culture, religion, social mores, etc. that means activities like puppy milling are a foregone conclusion? If yes, then it is a fair point to say "this self-identified group condones by their lifestyle practices with which I do not agree." Not to say that ALL members of the group would condone ALL such practices, but with groups like the Amish who choose a particular set of lifestyle options, it still may be a fair cop. I don't know enough about the core beliefs of the Amish to make a judgment, really.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

*Puppy mills and the Ag Dept?*

This is the first time I've heard that farmers are using puppy mills to make ends meet. How is the Dept of Agriculture involved?


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