# The 10 cm rule (4 inches)



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

In doing research for my new web site (smallstandardpoodles.com), I read a document from one of the FCI countries that said that poodles of different sizes (e.g., standard and klein) can be bred to each other only if the 2 parent dogs are not more than 10 cm (4 in) apart in size. (FCI or Fédération Cynologique Internationale has 86 member countries and they recognize 4 sizes of poodles, including the medium/klein/moyen). I am very frustrated because now I can't find the document. I usually keep copies of stuff that I think is interesting. I think it was breeding rules for a kennel club in one of the FCI countries. Have any of you ever heard of this? Does anyone know of any set of official guidelines that contain this rule?

I think it sounds like a good guideline. What do the rest of you think?


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I have heard people say that it is a good idea to stay within 4 inches, but I haven't seen anything official about that. That, I think, is for conformation reasons. Any chance it is in this detailed discussion/comparison of the FCI, UK and American standard (confess to not reading the whole thing)?

http://www.poodles-in-scandinavia.com/Article_Breed Standard_SPM.pdf


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

The link that you sent is a discussion about the FCI standards (very interesting, BTW). This is what the FCI standards say about size:

SIZE:
Standard Poodles:	Over 45cm up to 60cm with a tolerance of +2cm. The Standard Poodle must be the enlarged and developed replica of the Medium Poodle of which it retains the same characteristics.
Medium Poodles:	Over 35 cm up to 45cm.
Miniature Poodles: Over 28cm up to 35cm. The Miniature Poodle must display the apprearance of a reduced Medium Poodle, retaining as much as possible the same proportions and without presenting any sign of dwarfism.
Toy Poodles: Over 24 cm up to 28 cm (sought after ideal: 25cm) (with a tolerance of -1cm). The Toy Poodle maintains, in its ensemble, the aspect of a Miniature Poodle and the same general proportions complying with all the points of the standard. Any sign of dwarfism is excluded; only the occipital protuberance may be less pronounced.

There is nothing in the FCI standard about what size poodles can be bred to each other. 

The document I am remembering had very detailed rules about how poodles should be bred. I think they were supposed to be binding on breeders who were registering their poodles in whatever registry they were for. I'm thinking it was in Germany, but not sure and can't find it.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Ok, I am very naieve and new to this. Why on earth does it seem to matter so much that the different sizes are kept distinct anyway if the whole conformation of the dog is supposed to be the same, just in smaller proportion?

If the three sizes truly were ideal in conformation then how would breeding different sizes make changes in their whole symetry?

It seems to me, that some people are so definite that the only difference in the three sizes is indeed just size, but there seem to be just as many people citing the vast differences in personalities and mannerisms and outright sin that it is to try and mix up the groups. Are they the same or not?!?!?

Sometimes the "grey" areas in animals make me lol.

Rebecca


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Rebecca -- I am certainly not an expert on this. But I think that one of the main issues is that people have tried breeding standards to minis in an effort to produce the moyen/klein size that you see in FCI countrieds. The problem is that it is hard to find a mini and a standard that are within 4 inches of each other. Breeding dogs that are more than 4 inches apart in size may result in poodles that are not properly proportioned. I have seen photos of very funny looking poodles with short legs and long bodies. It seems to me (I'm interested in the thoughts of others), that breeding 2 dogs that are within 4 inches of each other is OK, but if the difference is more than that, the puppies are likely to have bad proportions. 

I think there is a big difference between the mini-standard combinations that some people refer to as moyen/kleins and the "real" moyen/kleins that have been bred for years in Europe and elsewhere. Breeding small standards to "real" moyen/kleins seems to me to be a good way to get the 18 to 20 inch size that some of us really like. 

My perception is that the FCI countries view the poodles as all one breed and make less of an effort to keep the sizes distinct. But I could be wrong about that. Any PF members from FCI countries???


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I guess MY thinking is...why not just import a crap load of these "moyens" and breed them? Why been bother mixing the two varieties? Just buy what younwant...if someone wants a "small" standard research lines and KNOW what those lines produce in size. My mentor has been on record as saying his line doesn't usually go over 23in and he's been at it for 25 years...so if that's the case there are lines of American bred animals that stay smaller

I have heard the 4in rule, if you look at the history of the red standard poodle you will see that they got a mish mash of proportions when they did the original breedings, it's taken years for responsible breeders to achieve the conformation they have and it's pretty impressive what some of done with their lines!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I think it sounds very practical! I would like to one day breed to a red Klein (REAL Klein, not the result of a mini/standard breeding, not a small standard, not a large mini) to one of my red girls, but would only breed a Klein to a petite standard. I think if the sizes were too far and away from one another you could end up with dogs like the first couple of generations of reds, with larger bodies and shorter legs. Makes sense to me.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I think it sounds very practical! I would like to one day breed to a red Klein (REAL Klein, not the result of a mini/standard breeding, not a small standard, not a large mini) to one of my red girls, but would only breed a Klein to a petite standard. I think if the sizes were too far and away from one another you could end up with dogs like the first couple of generations of reds, with larger bodies and shorter legs. Makes sense to me.


Arreau -- I'm looking forward to the day we hear about your imported klein!!!!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Just wondering when breeding & looking at height does one find that they will choose a lager female & a smaller male to bring down height or the other way around. Does it just depend on lines the dogs are from? I find this a very interesting discussion.


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