# Raw feeders: dental questions & Dealing with Vet



## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi all,

Took Fozzie in this week for his 3 year rabies shot and ended up having a long talk with the vet. He apparently has "a lot" of tartar build up even on his back teeth and the Vet said she was "very concerned". she said I needed to brush his teeth twice a day and she'd check him in August when he came back for his annual visit. She seemed to think because he isn't eating RMBs (due to resource guarding) or other crunchy dog food he isn't getting his teeth clean enough. She also recommended some kind of water additive. Any insight into that? 

Also....
As part of the conversation she went out of her way to say that she didn't think raw was good for dogs. She supported it for cats due to their being obligate carnivores (and she knows I won't switch, my cat is 12 years old, happy, and I'm.not.screwing.with.her.food.). But she said dogs only need ~25% protein and she thinks Fozzie will have kidney problems as a result. She's otherwise a very thorough and detail oriented vet, but on this one I wasn't sure what to think. It bothered me she was looking up protein % for the dog out of some guide stamped with "royal canin" on it and suggesting I supplement Fozzie's raw food with some kind of special "dental diet." :argh:

My thinking is that I'll basically ignore her food recommendations since she's otherwise great. But I'd love any research that refutes her positions. And any resources on dental care for raw feeders. Am I doomed to a lifetime of $1000 dental cleanings annually???? :afraid:

Oh and also, he was just diagnosed with oral warts. YUCK. :yuck:

FM, now diligently tooth brushing twice a day--and glad Fozzie actually puts up with it.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Raw meat is actually around 25% protein - dried foods can be higher in protein because they contain meat meal and other boosters. There has also been research to indicate that, while a low protein diet is advisable for dogs already suffering from kidney problems, it does not predispose them to kidney issues. Do you give him meat in chunks, rather than minced? Every bit of chewing helps with teeth.

I have found PlaqueOff good - a sprinkle on food every day, plus brushing with a dog toothpaste. Mine really like the CET one from Virbac - I've only just started using it, so can't say how effective it is, but it makes a change to have them queuing up for teeth cleaning!


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## vtomblin (Jul 18, 2010)

I have found poodles are not great at cleaning their own teeth on kibble diets. I get that from my guys and dogs and puppies at the shows with yellow yucky teeth. I think it is because their snouts are soo long. My other dogs over the years have done great at keeping their teeth good. I'd scale them every 6 months or so and thats it. But Phoenix came at 1.5 yrs with yellow teeth. Nina at 7 months had brown stains etc when we got her. But raw has fixed Phoenix's teeth completely and Nina at 11 months now has only one stain left. Sookie at 7 months has always had raw and has fantastic white teeth. I don't need to brush or scale anymore ever! Love them bones. That's my experience.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

More info on high protein diet and kidney disease here:
DogAware.com Health: Kidney Disease in Dogs


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## Feralpudel (Jun 28, 2010)

I trust the late great Susan Fleisher's opinion on high-protein diets for healthy dogs. She amassed a wealth of information about canine kidney disease after she lost a dog to JRD (she was also the founding mother of PHR). She believed that high protein was a NON-issue for healthy dogs, and that their owners needn't fret about feeding a high-protein diet (she liked EVO amongst kibble options). 

Is there any way to safely bend the rules about chewies that will help with the tartar (e.g., put them in his crate and never try to take them away?). I've had good results with both the CET rawhide chews and raw marrow bones.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> He apparently has "a lot" of tartar build up even on his back teeth and the Vet said she was "very concerned". she said I needed to brush his teeth twice a day and she'd check him in August when he came back for his annual visit. She seemed to think because he isn't eating RMBs (due to resource guarding) or other crunchy dog food he isn't getting his teeth clean enough. She also recommended some kind of water additive. Any insight into that?
> 
> Also....
> As part of the conversation she went out of her way to say that she didn't think raw was good for dogs. She supported it for cats due to their being obligate carnivores (and she knows I won't switch, my cat is 12 years old, happy, and I'm.not.screwing.with.her.food.). But she said dogs only need ~25% protein and she thinks Fozzie will have kidney problems as a result. She's otherwise a very thorough and detail oriented vet, but on this one I wasn't sure what to think. It bothered me she was looking up protein % for the dog out of some guide stamped with "royal canin" on it and suggesting I supplement Fozzie's raw food with some kind of special "dental diet." :argh:
> ...



Yes, she is right, not eating RMBs is preventing him from getting the same dental benefit that he would get if he was able to eat them. BUT, because of his resource guarding issues it does make sense that he cannot have them. I would suggest, as others did, to feed large chunks of meat so he can at least chew these. Even chewing boneless muscle meat will floss through the teeth. 

Can he have antlers? Will these help plaque from forming? What about beef ribs - are those too high of value? Raw pigs feet? 

Also, your vet is incorrect about raw diets being high in protein. Raw diets are indeed around 20-30% protein by weight. If you are interested in proving your vet wrong with evidence  , you can type individual items fed into the USDA database. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/. Almost every item that I feed Millie (and I feed quite the variety!) is under 25% protein by weight.

A raw diet that is low in veggies, carbs and fruits will have less overall sugar, which means hopefully less plaque formation. Also, as I said above, the simple act of chewing large chunks of meat will definitely provide some means of teeth cleaning. Much more than kibble! 

Good luck and I hope you find a way to avoid those costly dentals!


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

FM, your vet (if you are still seeing the same one) used to be our vet. She is a very well-respected and detailed and patient professional that I respect. But I had a long talk with her and also a reputable trainer that she recommended to me who is a big supporter of raw. This trainer said they were very good friends and that she respected her and agreed w/ her on almost every aspect but raw. She said that they have had fights on this topic for years. Anyway, Nickel is now seeing another vet in the same hospital who is also very good and accepts (not 100% embraces it but accepts and doesn't try to convince me to make any changes) raw diet.

I brush Nickel's teeth every night. Twice a week, I use this Oral Care Gel with Wild Salmon Oil - PetzLife Oral Care, Dog Dental Care - PetzLife that helps to soften the tartar/plaque. I give him RMB every weekend and antlers as his usual chew/toy. I understand the resource-guarding issue of Fozzie's so these may not be an option until he improves in that arena. 

$1000 is a lot of money to spend annually on dental care PLUS you don't want Fozzie to be put under every year. Have you heard of the Anesthesia Free teeth Cleaning Clinics at here Osso & Co - designer dog collars, dog apparel, pet carriers, food and more ? Nickel hasn't tried it but I have visited and seen how it's done. I think it costs less than $200. You might want to check that out.


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## WonderPup (Oct 26, 2008)

Feralpudel said:


> Is there any way to safely bend the rules about chewies that will help with the tartar (e.g., put them in his crate and never try to take them away?). I've had good results with both the CET rawhide chews and raw marrow bones.


I was actually thinking the same thing, why can't he eat in his a kennel or a gated off area of the house where you can still observe him? I don't know how serious the guarding behavior is though. ???


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

this is a great thread with lots of good info. Thank you to all. 

on the guarding: yes, the last time I gave Fozzie a Marrow Bone in his crate he literally went cujo, red zone snarling and freaking out any time someone came near the crate. it was awful to watch. He hasn't had one since. 

So...I am thinking my next step is to start feeding rmbs that fozzie can eat in one "sitting" --example chicken necks and backs, vs marrow bones. That way I can keep him in the kitchen or hold in my hand until it is gone--then nothing to guard. I was thinking like Schnauzerpoodle that I'd suppliment the primal with those to help for now. He's a touch under weight so I can just add a few of these in.  

Good tip on giving him just raw meat that he has to chew also, will look into that. I joined the raw feeders' list on yahoo. I did my research into primal and discovered that the food is 25% protein, so I feel fine. 

Schnauzerpoodle, I think you mean that you are seeing the other vet in the two vet practice? (we can talk offline so we aren't in code). I've talked to her too, she caught a heart murmur in my cat no one had seen before either. I remember her being more supportive of raw. Thank you so much for the tips on the anesthesia free cleaning, I'll look into that. It's a great idea if it's safe. would you take Nickel there if you needed to?


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> Schnauzerpoodle, I think you mean that you are seeing the other vet in the two vet practice? (we can talk offline so we aren't in code). I've talked to her too, she caught a heart murmur in my cat no one had seen before either. I remember her being more supportive of raw. Thank you so much for the tips on the anesthesia free cleaning, I'll look into that. It's a great idea if it's safe. would you take Nickel there if you needed to?


Yes, I would definitely take Nickel there. I have seen the lady cleaning the teeth of a big dog. I talked to the owner of the dog a little bit too. The dog's pretty old, like 11 years old (pretty old for a big dog like him) and she said she has been taking her dog there every year for the past few years and it worked for them.

p.s. I PM'd you regarding the vet.


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