# I am curious why poodles in colors other than black and whites have trouble winning



## mersailes (Jul 17, 2013)

I am curious why poodles in colors other than black and whites have trouble winning in the confirmation ring? What are the faults common to the other colors that make it difficult to compete with the black or white poodles? I'm just curious. I'm a poodle newbie, and I think the blues in particular are gorgeous! I don't plan to show right now, so this just for my information. :-D

Thanks,

Leslie
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## mersailes (Jul 17, 2013)

Sorry for the double post. I just thought after posting it in Poodle Talk that this was a better place for the question.

Leslie


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Well this should be a fun thread! :ahhhhh:


There IS a prejudice. 

BUT...

for the most part, it is warranted.

Not so much in blue, and silver has really come a long way, too. Brown I think still has some room for improvement, though I can not speak directly to what brown breeders are striving for.

GENERALLY, red and apricot lack what is referred to as "type". They are a more common poodle as opposed to a poodely poodle. Heads will be broader in the back, often the rear will be higher than the withers, croups will slope and tailsets will be low. They will also lack "carriage". That is how they hold their head and their tail - both should be upright - Some lines have other particular issues - but that is an overall generalization.

I can attach photos of Lombardi and Brees - both boys are AKC CHs Both boys placed in their classes at PCA National Specialty :first: Including some moving photos along with standing so you can hopefully see the carriage and how they should move when they are collected. I will leave it to you to look at other photos of other moving poodles and see if you can evaluate the differences. Wish I had a moving photo of London - who was poetry to watch in motion. Thomas was another of my favorites. I'd love for my boys to measure up - but frankly they don't. They ARE, however, outstanding examples of color. (I have noted before that the London's and Flames and Ally's of the poodle world are exceptions in any color. Just incredible animals that are a cut above all others.)

It's not the easiest thing to explain..... and, frankly, I think you will either have an eye or not. I think many things can be taught, but if you cannot first "see" that something doesn't measure up, then I am not certain how the intricacies of structure and how it all comes together can be explained.

Not sure if I have helped or not....


Tabatha
NOLA Standards

PS The attachments are killing me. PM me or email. Probably best...


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Here's a short one of London:




And here is one from PCA 2013 (over 5 years old here).


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## mersailes (Jul 17, 2013)

He moves beautifully! So flashy. I love his prance.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I totally agree with having an eye or not. I don't. I showed quarter horses for a long time. I could look at two horses and know they are nice, but can't seem to say why one is better, I can't seem to "see" angles. I can tell you if a horse has a pretty head, or a nice butt, but I can't tell you if the hock is too straight or the shoulder too sloped. 

I'm that way with poodles too. I can tell if one has nice movement but if they don't, I can't tell you exactly why. 

I was watching one poodle go around and I thought it moved funny. My breeder was with me so I asked her. She had me notice that the front end of the dog didn't move with the back end. Kind of like two dogs trying to move together. I know it sounds strange and looked odd, but I couldn't pinpoint it.


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## Baer Paws (Jan 24, 2013)

*Gaits*

He moves beautifully! So flashy. I love his prance. 

I believe if you start looking at movement in a dog or a horse that they actually have 3 gaits, we could get into other gaits but to keep it simple, the basic 3 gaits is walk, trot, and canter. 
When showing the dog he is at the "trot". This is a two beat gait where the 2 diagonal legs hit the ground at the same time. The trot when done correctly can show the extension of the front leg and the back leg that are not hitting the ground and the 2 legs hitting the ground should form a "v". You can see this exaggerated and in its most beautiful form in "Dressage with Horses" doing the extended trot. 
http://departmentofsports.com/blog/...otte-Hinds-on-ATE-Extended-Trot-CADI-2011.jpg

In this link you will see that the front leg and back leg that are extended are about at the same level, and also you see the "v" with the two inside legs and it make it look as if it is floating on air. This is Vikki.
http://www.toypoodlevikki.com/web images/candid pics/images/ds_021306_c_ny(233)(1)e8x10n.jpg

once you can see the proper gait then you can start looking at the structure that makes a proper gait, but just remember that you have to have correct structure to get this wonderful stride.

If you get the book on "Poodles" through Amazon written from Del Dahl and order back copies of his articles about structure from Poodle Variety. You will start understanding form and what you should be looking for. There is a brochure from the Poodle Club that goes over conformation and helps you see where the bones should lie and then how it should look on the poodle when in the proper place.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Totally agree with NOLA. There is bias, and in most cases, it is warranted. But as she has shown with her two handsome lads, there are exceptions to every rule. Our girl Journey is another exception. She is typey, solid, has a beautiful front and head, and it would make a judge seem fairly ludicrous if they turned a blind eye to her simply because of her colour. And they didn't. She earned her Canadian championship in a few weekends, with a natural tail. She earned a Best Opposite Sex over a black, multi BIS bitch who I believe took BOB at Westminster. If they have it, there is no denying it. But the reds and apricots, as a whole, still have a long way to go and in my opinion, we have to introduce black (or white) to our breedings to help make the improvements necessary, or it will continue to be more of the same.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Generally speaking usually blacks and whites have better confirmation. When people breed for color sometime less attention is paid to confirmation. Red is a good example. Red standards are relatively new. Standards were bred to apricot mini to introduce that color into standard lines. If you look at early red standard poodles they are fluggly looking. This is something breeders of reds are aware of and why breeding out reds to blacks and whites is so important. Now that some time has passed breeders have addressed these issues and some lovely reds are being shown.

Even breeding for black or white can be challenging. Some black dogs fade considerably with age while some will retain an inky black color. There are also "bad blacks" with other colors like gray or white mixed in. Sometimes these will be mistakenly labelled blue. I do think that blue is one of the most challenging color to find in a show quality poodle, at least I see very few in my area.

I appreciate all the lovely shades of poodles. Some lament that brown, reds and apricots generally fade with age but the spectrum of the poodle rainbow is lovely. To me color is way down on the list when I look for a poodle.


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## MaryEdwards (Oct 29, 2012)

Thanks for taking the time to post the pictures and videos. Outstanding Poodles all!! IMHO having never had the pleasure of attending a show. The next one in Detroit I will have to attend.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Shows are a lot of fun you meet the nicest people. Sometimes owners are on the sidelines as they rarely show their own dogs. My husband and I always have our own judging in the side guessing placement. A show is also a great place to pick up supplies and try them out. Let us know what you think of the show you attend. Have fun drooling over the gorgeous poodles you will see.


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