# My thoughts and concerns on finding a poodle in Ontario



## HiThereChan (Jul 5, 2021)

Hello,

After contemplating for years, my mother has finally decided that our family should get a dog. The reason to why she was so reluctant was because she didn't think we were ready for a dog. She watches a famous Korean dog instructor's show for 5 years, without missing a single episode and has seen how irresponsible families can be with dogs (it's quite a large problem in Korea, I am sure it is here too). However, after doing research on breeds and seeing how all of us are grown up and more responsible, she is looking for a mini poodle.

We even went far enough to decided a family walking schedule, emptying our living room (except two couches) for the dog, and even buying baby gates for when our grandparents come (they are scared of dogs unfortunately). 

However, due to the whole pandemic puppy rage, we decided to push aside having our own puppy due to hike in prices and long waiting lists. Instead, we opted to foster some dogs since we didn't have experience taking care of them. After taking care of a Siberian Husky Mix, we really understood how crazy dog hair can fly!!! And it further confirmed that a poodle is the dog we want (she is a WONDERFUL dog though, and honestly deserves the best in the world). We also thought about adopting from the shelter, but we really wanted to raise a dog from a puppy and for the dog to not shed because we are currently vacuuming 3 times a day haha. 

So these past three weeks, I have been contacting CKC breeders (tho I haven't had many responses) and looking through all different sites on google for breeders near me. But honestly, I was really surprised at the prices of the puppies. I think they increased from last time I saw them. Most puppies (not just mini, but even mixed breeds I found like maltipoo or cockapoos) are (2500 - 5000). There are also no puppies really available and wait lists are completely full. A lot of the dogs are not breed from high end show dogs either. They are just regular breeders who seem to be okay as they have vet checks, health guaranteed, etc. 

Our family is well enough but I feel like the extra 500 or 1000 is still a little burdensome. We are willing to spend money on great crates, leashes, toys, etc that would probably take up that 500 costs (and we are always down for vet bills). But I am not sure if it's the mindset I grew up with, but spending more than normal on the regular puppy price doesn't sit well with me? I am unsure of what to do.

I don't know if my mindset is bad. Honestly, I'm not sure what the standard price for a mini poodle is anymore as the websites say a more cheaper costs. Maybe it is a normal cost and I am just overthinking it.

What is the normal price for a mini poodle? Is this a normal feeling I am having? Are there any breeder recommendations?


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

It's not a "bad" mindset. In general, it's good to think through and pump the breaks on purchasing decisions because we're programmed for instant gratification. I'm frugal, I get it. The best way to save money is simply not to spend it.

The sticker shock is normal. It's basic supply and demand economics. Demand goes up, supply stays the same, price goes up.

If you want to work through 2 months of delayed gratification, then I'm sure the amount you save on every budget line item will make you feeling twice as satisfied when it comes down to paying for a puppy.. You say "no" to having a marshmellow now so you can instead have two marshmellows later.

Find a breeder who you like and get on their wait list. Your family sounds ready.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

“Designer” mixes do often go for more than purebred poodles from ethical, preservationist breeders. Sometimes _way_ more! Those who breed them are doing it for profit, period, not to find their next show prospect or to better a beloved breed. They often use gimmicky marketing terms and may have glossy websites with cutesy pics and a PayPal button. Or they may even present themselves as a nice little family with an “oops!” litter. Those breeders tend to use Craigslist and other classifieds, and can be very deceptive. Covid has only made it worse, as “greeders” and even scammers pop up left, right, and centre to meet skyrocketing demand. You’re right to proceed with caution.

I‘ve not lived in Ontario since 2013, but, based on what I’ve read over the years on Poodle Forum, I’d be expecting to pay at least $2,500 for a well-socialized miniature poodle puppy from genetically sound parents. I’d also expect to be put on a waitlist. Good miniature poodle breeders are few and far between, and it seems even harder to find them in Canada.

Would you consider a toy or a standard poodle? Opening up your search to the United States will also significantly expand your options. Hoping today’s (albeit very slight) relaxing of the border rules is a step towards a full re-opening.


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## HiThereChan (Jul 5, 2021)

Basil_the_Spoo said:


> It's not a "bad" mindset. In general, it's good to think through and pump the breaks on purchasing decisions because we're programmed for instant gratification. I'm frugal, I get it. The best way to save money is simply not to spend it.
> 
> The sticker shock is normal. It's basic supply and demand economics. Demand goes up, supply stays the same, price goes up.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your input! I appreciate your response. Since we have a husky in our house right now (she unfortunately has a hard time with other dogs and we are not allowed to have her interact with other dogs as a rule from the shelter), we are not looking for a dog right away. Until she goes to her forever home, that is when we will bring a puppy in. 

I've been trying to contact breeders that I like but unfortunately their waiting lists have been full. I'm thinking if anything, we can try continuing fostering (since we have the space to foster) while we find a hopefully ethical breeder who is able to put us on a list. Honestly, I just want to find an ethical breeder who has a reasonable uninflated price  

Now I'm thinking of waiting till next year for a pup after hopefully everything comes back to normal. We shall see! Who knows!

We still do love shelter dogs, and I have a kind of bad feeling that the "new normal" is going to bring some dogs into the shelter. So if anything, two marshmellows may be in our house


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

HiThereChan said:


> Thank you for your input! I appreciate your response. Since we have a husky in our house right now (she unfortunately has a hard time with other dogs and we are not allowed to have her interact with other dogs as a rule from the shelter), we are not looking for a dog right away. Until she goes to her forever home, that is when we will bring a puppy in.
> 
> I've been trying to contact breeders that I like but unfortunately their waiting lists have been full. I'm thinking if anything, we can try continuing fostering (since we have the space to foster) while we find a hopefully ethical breeder who is able to put us on a list. Honestly, I just want to find an ethical breeder who has a reasonable uninflated price
> 
> ...


Keep searching. A lot of new puppy owners just popped up on the forums around spring. So, that would tell me that breeders should start planning their next litter soon since dogs go into heat twice a year. It's not a matter of "if", but a matter of "when". 

Be sure to check out the sticky posts in the finding the right puppy subsection.

This thread too.








Pandemic Puppy Primer


The pandemic has created some unique challenges for families adding a new puppy or adult dog to their home. On the one hand, we finally have the time to devote to a four legged family member; on the other hand, surging demand has led to adoption and sales scams, and social distancing...




www.poodleforum.com


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## HiThereChan (Jul 5, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> “Designer” mixes do often go for more than purebred poodles from ethical, preservationist breeders. Sometimes _way_ more! Those who breed them are doing it for profit, period, not to find their next show prospect or to better a beloved breed. They often use gimmicky marketing terms and may have glossy websites with cutesy pics and a PayPal button. Or they may even present themselves as a nice little family with an “oops!” litter. Those breeders tend to use Craigslist and other classifieds, and can be very deceptive. Covid has only made it worse, as “greeders” and even scammers pop up left, right, and centre to meet skyrocketing demand. You’re right to proceed with caution.
> 
> I‘ve not lived in Ontario since 2013, but, based on what I’ve read over the years on Poodle Forum, I’d be expecting to pay at least $2,500 for a well-socialized miniature poodle puppy from genetically sound parents. I’d also expect to be put on a waitlist. Good miniature poodle breeders are few and far between, and it seems even harder to find them in Canada.
> 
> Would you consider a toy or a standard poodle? Opening up your search to the United States will also significantly expand your options. Hoping today’s (albeit very slight) relaxing of the border rules is a step towards a full re-opening.


Thank you for your reply! And yes, I have taken note of unethical breeders and I have recently learned that "designer" mixes aren't the most ethical method. It really sucks too because they all seem to have sweet personalities and a good fit for our household. I am glad that you think my caution is right!

And I see! I will take note that $2,500 is the average cost. Honestly, all we really want is a nice and healthy dog that isn't overpriced due to the pandemic. We'd prefer spending that $2,500 rather than spending $2000 for a dog normally $1000 before pandemic.

We would consider a toy for sure! My mother will be the main caregiver as I currently live outside of home. A standard is unfortunately too big, and we struggle with the size of our siberian husky haha. But I might have a talk again with my parents to consider a standard again, because a lot of the struggles we have with our foster is mainly due to lack of training she's had (we have to carry her up the stairs, and our hands have become painful due to her leash pulling). So if we train our puppy properly from puppyhood it should be alright.

And we are okay for the U.S. as long as it is near the Niagara border! I will try checking U.S. breeders


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

As an FYI, a year and a half prior to the pandemic, I spent $2000 on a standard poodle from a good breeder in ontario. I saw prices then ranging from $2000-3000. Minis were typically on the higher end of that, as the litter size is much smaller. 

For a reality check, I suggest looking at kijiji's listings. Last time I looked 'labrador cross sneaky neighbours dog's type mutts were also going for around $1500-3000(!!!) At the height of pandemic craziness. From what I have seen, the decent breeders haven't raised their prices much. 

Have you looked at the resources in the Finding the right Puppy section of the forum? There is a list of breeders that includes both US and Canada, and lists the health tests you should expect to have been done for your $2500 (I wouldn't pay those prices for a breeder who isnt health testing).


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

HiThereChan said:


> I will take note that $2,500 is the average cost.


I’d be expecting to pay _at least _that in Canada. It may be well below average, I’m not sure. You could start a thread asking specifically for price input from Canadian members.

I like this site for finding American breeders: Good Dog: Find the Dog of Your Dreams from Good Breeders and Shelters

But it’s still just a starting point for research. This is another good starting point:









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## Oonapup (Oct 16, 2020)

Hi from Waterloo! I understand all the things you write about. I got a standard poodle puppy from what I would probably now call a backyard breeder (doesn't show, some but not much testing, lots of litters, does not temperament test and will let people pick their puppies from photos, breeds merle dogs), but puppies appear well cared for in their home and decently socialized from what I could see from social media. I am absolutely enamored with my dog, but she has had bite defects that might have been prevented by a more responsible breeder, for which she needed surgeries that have made up the difference in her lower than average purchase price, and I count myself lucky. There could of course be more expensive veterinary surprises in her future. You never know, and even a well-bred dog is not a guarantee, but it's nice to have some confidence that some of the really bad genetic conditions are less likely, for the expense but also for the dog's quality of life.

She's also on the shyer/nervier side and will need some training help to hopefully become more comfortable with other people's children in our lives as social lives open back up - this is a combo of pandemic life but also temperament. A conscientious breeder could have helped select a more outgoing puppy for us and this transition might have been easier. She has been socialized literally as much as possible but there have just been fewer opportunities to fill her positive experience bank and she needs more help than your average dog since she's naturally more timid. The training help will also cost money.

If I could do it over again - or when I ever get another dog - I'd find a more reputable breeder who isn't inflating prices hugely (for standards it seems normal to expect 2500 now, but can be higher for minis). I don't think you're going to see many extremely high prices like in the 4s and 5s from reputable breeders (but I'm happy to be corrected). 

If you're considering rescuing or fostering, Standard Poodles In Need (SPIN) is a really good organization to follow and put in an application with. Most of their poodles and poodle mixes are in Ontario. They do get some minis and mini mixes in as well and they seem to do a great job matching dogs with people. I had an application in with them for a while and have done some volunteer work for them, but got Oona before any appropriate dogs for us were available.


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

HiThereChan said:


> Hello,
> 
> After contemplating for years, my mother has finally decided that our family should get a dog. The reason to why she was so reluctant was because she didn't think we were ready for a dog. She watches a famous Korean dog instructor's show for 5 years, without missing a single episode and has seen how irresponsible families can be with dogs (it's quite a large problem in Korea, I am sure it is here too). However, after doing research on breeds and seeing how all of us are grown up and more responsible, she is looking for a mini poodle.
> 
> ...


We live in southern Ontario and it took us a while to find reputable mini breeders. All three breeders we found charged between $2500 to $2800, which included all the health checks, vaccination, etc. The breeder we got our Piper from did not have another litter until a few weeks ago as she did not want her pups to go to people who were bored at home during lockdown. I think that as Covid restrictions are eased in Ontario you may find breeders will start having more pups.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi,

Good stuff above. To give you additional perspective, I'm adding some tips, some things to consider and some things to avoid.

We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the kind of quality, conscientious breeders many of us prefer to support are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from. For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed.

About reviews, a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum. There are also poodle specific DNA panels for those testable conditions. Those are companion testing with the OFA/CHIC testing.
Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

Read thru any contracts that may be listed. If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2021-2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs rather than keep a website updated.

When you start making contacts, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

Color preferences are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies. That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years.

Temperament and personality are lifelong traits.

Be prepared to spend in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

Be prepared to travel outside your preferred area.

As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".


An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.


As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my personal criteria (I have another more detailed but just this for now):

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards and are physically capable by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


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