# Seeking breeder recommendation: Regal?



## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

Did you look at the Nursery page? It says, "We are looking to add 2 more Standard poodle or F1 GoldenDoodle females and 1 moyen or miniature Red Male to our breeding program." Puppy Nursery

What are you looking for exactly? I think you should make a list and maybe we can help you find a few responsible POODLE breeders that you can talk to.

ETA: I remember you are looking for a red spoo on the smaller side, right?

I think I have suggested you to contact Audrey (Bonheur) in McHenry, IL to see if she will have a larger Mini. Call her instead of emailing her. She owns and runs her own grooming shop so calling her in the late afternoon/early evening so that she can sit down and talk.

Contact Jean of Patriot. http://www.patriotpoodles.com She's very responsive and always replies her emails promptly. She breeds all 3 varieties of red. 

There's NOLA http://www.nolastandards.com She's also very helpful. I emailed her and seek advice from her and she's been very generous sharing her knowledge even though I was honest with her from day one that a spoo was too big for my family.

I saw that you have lost your poodle and that you wanted to find a healthy pup and we are here to help. And yet, you kept asking about some breeders that I (and maybe other fellow members too) won't personally buy a puppy from. Don't be shy. Contact these wonderful people. They are willing to point you to RESPONSIBLE, REPUTABLE breeders that will work for you. Or you may decide later that having a puppy shipped to you is not that bad. Find a breeder you can trust. Find someone that you are willing to build a relationship with (and vice versa). Don't limit yourself geographically.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

schnauzerpoodle said:


> Did you look at the Nursery page? It says, "We are looking to add 2 more Standard poodle or F1 GoldenDoodle females and 1 moyen or miniature Red Male to our breeding program." Puppy Nursery
> 
> What are you looking for exactly? I think you should make a list and maybe we can help you find a few responsible POODLE breeders that you can talk to.


You seem to have a proclivity for asking for recommendations about breeders who either also breed doodles or have been associated with doodle breeders. I fear you will never get a "thumbs up" on any of these type of breeders from your fellow poodle forum members.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I find it odd that on their contract, they require you to keep your puppy on a certain brand of vitamin to guarantee hereditary defects. I don't understand how a vitamin can change something hereditary. If you don't keep your puppy on the vitamin the vitamin company notifies the breeder and it makes her guarantee void.


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## lchinitz (Jan 21, 2013)

If I have a "proclivity" toward anything it's trying to educate myself about poodle breeders, especially with regard to health issues. I have contacted or researched breeders suggested to me. I'm trying to find a small standard, color isn't that important (though I like red and apricot), in the time frame that works for my family because of work schedules, at a cost I can afford, and preferably within a 4 hour drive (so I don't have to ship puppies) . It is for these reasons that I keep investigating.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

It would be easier if color isn't that important. How small are you looking for?


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

lchinitz said:


> If I have a "proclivity" toward anything it's trying to educate myself about poodle breeders, especially with regard to health issues. I have contacted or researched breeders suggested to me. I'm trying to find a small standard, color isn't that important (though I like red and apricot), in the time frame that works for my family because of work schedules, at a cost I can afford, and preferably within a 4 hour drive (so I don't have to ship puppies) . It is for these reasons that I keep investigating.


I commend you for educating yourself about poodles. I hope you will take my previous post as a "heads up" that ethical breeders of poodles do not also breed poodle crosses. An ethical breeder hopes to "better" the poodle breed and this is not obtained by crossing the poodle with other breeds for the sole purpose of making money.

I read your original introductory post and I am very sorry you lost a beloved member of your family to Addisons at such a young age. I truly feel for you and I acknowledge that you wish to add a healthy poodle to your family. Please know that Addisons is a Polygenic Disease. Even breeders who test their Dam and Sire acknowledge that the test just proves that at the moment in time that the test was taken they did not have the disease. It does not guarantee that they or their offspring may develop the disease in the future. You are definitely on the right track in your search by looking for breeders who do test their breeding stock. There is more of a likelihood that a poodle from untested parents will develop health issues than one from unhealth tested parents. This is interesting reading http://www.poodlehealthregistry.org/docs/Standard/Addison_Files/AddisonResearch_Request.pdf

Also here is a page from the Poodle Club of Canada's website which talks about why they do not endorse Poodle Cross Breeds. 

Crossbreeds | Poodle Club of Canada


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## lchinitz (Jan 21, 2013)

I'm looking for about 20-22"--male or female.


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

No, I can't say I'm a fan of this breeder either. Again, poodle people don't breed doodles. The majority of doodle related people are purely in it for the money, and this isn't what you want. My girls dam is 22", and it appears that my girl will wind up being about that size too, so it's possible to find a standard that size. I think one of the reasons you're finding these breeders is that you're searching for Moyen sized poodles, which is kinda controversial at the moment in the US. I'm sure you know, the moyen size isn't a "thing" in the us. I too wanted a smaller sized standard, and looked into moyens originally. There are very few decent breeders of them in the US (you may want to look into Karbit though) so most of the people breeding them, like the doodle people, are doing it for the money. A lot of time those breeders are breeding standards and minis together to get an oddly balanced mid size. When you're looking at websites, look for conformation pictures, get an eye for what conformation basics look like. Look at pedigrees, even if you don't understand what they mean, look for names repeating, and if they're on poodle pedigree database you can look up the COI too. Look for dogs who have had health testing done.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

lchinitz said:


> I'm looking for about 20-22"--male or female.


It's fairly easy to find a 22" female. I think you can just contact some responsible breeders and let them know you are looking for a small female. Health and temperament are more important.

I was looking for a mini no more than 14" so that I could fly him in the cabin. My boy ends up to be an oversized mini (17.5") but he's healthy and fun and smart. I don't even recall size being one of the items I once had on my wish list. Size matters but I can look past it.

Also, don't exclude breeders who are 5 or even 6 hours away from you. Breeders/handlers often travel to and from shows/agility trials/vacation homes. It's not uncommon for buyers and breeders/co-breeders to meet midway or at shows. Arrangements can be made. Finding the breeder that you can trust and the dogs that you like is more important. 

I'll come back with some spoo breeder names.


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## brownlikewoah (May 3, 2012)

I wanted to mention some breeders I found while daydreaming about apricots too, may be worth looking into: Autumn shades, lumiere, and farleys d. They may be too far away from you, but it may be worth having a pup shipped if it is exactly what you're looking for


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

I don't know this breeder and I am not a breeder so my opinion is based on what I saw on the web site and researches I made on poodle pedigree databases. Please note that I am in the same boat as you ie I had a bad experience with a pure bred dog before. You got only negative comments on this breeder but here are the positive one I saw (I have a scientific backround and some genetic knowledge) :

1. You will be able to see both parents (this is was she states on her web site). 
2. The dam COI (Rayllee) is really low and lots of unique ancestors. This is not a garanty but it's a good start to lower your chances of physical health and temper problems. The dam really looks good to but I would ask why her tail is so short.
COI = 0.9%[10G,10F,1078U,103C]
COI15 = 5.5%[15G,10F,4634U,1714C]
3. The sir (Felix) is four years old and no noticable genetic health problems yet (you can ask her for a written garanty about that). 
4. This is possibily an outcross breeding since it's a mini with a standard. The puppies would then have a COI of 0 over many generations which adds diversity to the gene pool. This is also good to reduce the physical health and temper problems with no garanty. You need the sir's pedigree to confirm dam and sir have no common ancestors. I could not find it.

For these reasons and many others, I would visit this breeder if I was looking for a small spoo. I would bring a friend to get a second opinion. Following my visit maybe I would adopt a puppy from her maybe not, my choice would depends on many other things including my "feeling".


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

julietcr1 said:


> 4. This is possibily an outcross breeding since it's a mini with a standard. The puppies would then have a COI of 0 over many generations which adds diversity to the gene pool. This is also good to reduce the physical health and temper problems with no garanty. You need the sir's pedigree to confirm dam and sir have no common ancestors. I could not find it.


I cannot agree with this. Minis and Standards have different genetic diseases. How can mixing two different pots of soup make things better?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Thank you, Schnauzerpoodle, for the soup comment!

This promotion of "low coi" borders on gimmick. It means VERY LITTLE to a puppy buyer. It should be a tool for breeders, and only a tool, yet it is being promoted like "CH Lines!.

Scary!! :ahhhhh:

OP - 
Reach out to Farleys - he has a breeding planned. His girls, like Annie and B, are very feminine small girls - 20 and 21 I think.

Am searching for more resources for you.


Regards,

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I agree with earlier posters that considering the size you are looking for, I'd look at poodle breeders with some smaller females.........my neighbor has a poodle from a reputable breeder and Mona Lisa is 21" and 38 pounds. That would be the safer way to go in my opinion.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

A quality breeder does not breed a mini to a standard. This is a definite red flag. A low COI does not guarantee a healthy dog. I am willing to bet that doodles suffer from more genetic ailments. I know my sister has a doodle that has just turned seven and I doubt it will make eight. Although it is a sweet dog at over 100 pounds and the size of a small pony it is not the mini size that she was promised. If you want a poodle look for a poodle.


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## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

Here's another issue to consider in breeding a mini to a standard. What if the pups aren't correctly proportioned? For example, you could wind up with a miniature-sized dog with large, spoo-sized teeth. Or a large dog with shortish legs. I would take the suggestions offered here instead!


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

starpoodle said:


> Here's another issue to consider in breeding a mini to a standard. What if the pups aren't correctly proportioned? For example, you could wind up with a miniature-sized dog with large, spoo-sized teeth. Or a large dog with shortish legs. I would take the suggestions offered here instead!


Exactly! Look at the parents (Raylee and Felix) of this litter. Parents

Has Raylee the spoo been tested? http://www.vipoodle.org/PDF_Files/TestsforStandardPoodles.pdf

How about Felix the mini? http://www.vipoodle.org/PDF_Files/TestsforMiniaturePoodles.pdf


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## julietcr1 (Nov 10, 2012)

I really like the fact that Sushi is a mix of two different pot of soup and yes it can make the soup better, just try it;o) Some breeders in this forum are breeding red spoos so I am not the only one who likes soup mix....Or maybe red breeders don't know red standards are the result of outcrossing a mini to a standard 30 years ago? Look in your red spoos pedigree, Sushi's miniature ancestor is Palmares E Pluribus Unum who was bred to a female standard named Palmares Peach Beryl in 1982.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Red breeders know full well the issues of breeding a mini to a standard. The original cross to introduce red was with dogs only 10 cm apart is size and yet repeated problems of dogs with heads the size of standards with the short legs of a mini were a continual problem. Look at this web page explaining the issue:

ShangriLa

keep in mind this was written by a breeder of reds. Only through a carefully controlled breeding program have the breeders of reds been able to address these problems. Would I want to roll the dice and blindly throw genes into the soup pot? No, when I make soup it is with carefully chosen ingredients designed to enhance the favors of the separate ingredients to make a blend that is superior to the taste of any one ingredient. I would hope a breeder would use even more care in the breeding of a puppy than I take making soup.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I'm not a breeder but I am aware of the history. And I know for fact that many Red breeders are still struggling with structure and type. 

The OP is asking about this specific "breeder" so let's look at the parents of this current litter. The height different of the parents is 7.5 inches. You don't get to see the body structure of Felix. And from what I can tell, I would not call the body structure of Raylee desirable. Has Raylee been tested? How about Felix? Is his CERF current? Has he been tested PRA? The dogs are not titled. How about other activities/events?

Look at their contract. See #8 and #10. They are calling themselves "Regal Cockapoos".


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