# Obedience problems.



## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

Hi Alex, It was all going well until I read about the counter jumping, yikes! I can't advise on that as it hasn't been something I have had to deal with (yet?).

About the brushing and combing, definitely frustrating especially when you are trying to grow her out for a special trim! My experience: even though Dulcie was introduced to grooming from a very early age by her breeder and I continued to brush and comb her at home, she also went through a period like your pup - she would bite my hands as I tried to brush her. I had to use every trick in the book to get her somewhat brushed each day - kept it in short sessions (so I often had to just do front legs, chest and belly in one go and then the back tail and head in another - or even three sessions spread out over the day (which I was only able to do because I work at home). A hard chewy treat was what worked best for Dulcie - and usually I would slather it with something yummy too. A beef tendon or bully stick was the usual choice. Also sometimes she would happily chew away on her toothbrush while I brushed, which solved two problems at once. 
The good news is that this behavior faded out after a couple of months - about the same time that the puppy nipping faded out, as a matter of fact!
Hopefully, this will be your experience too!
I wish I could offer some reassurance on the counter thing - hopefully some others with more experience will weigh in.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

I know I am asking for a flaming from the positive reinforcement brigade but: At 3 months and younger a Dam will discipline her puppies. She will snap at them if they bite her and cuff them lightly to show displeasure in their bad behavior. Like very young children you do not have a good communication path with them until they learn some language. When she bites you show your displeasure say OUCH!, turn you back, walk away and ignore the dog. Push her carefully off the counter, say NO! in a growling voice at the same time. If this has no effect at all a light cuff is not pleasant and when accompanied by a NO! should eventually work. Be sure to reward the dog whenever he/she earns it. You must be consistent and not provide opportunities for the dog to jump the counter when you are not present. These opportunities can be so rewarding (big piece of steak etc) that the dog will continue for ever!
You will get a lot more advice on these problems if you search this forum since these are both common problems that come up often.
Eric.


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## Alex2592 (Jan 10, 2015)

Thank you all so much! I will definitely try all of your answers and post the results.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

For brushing and combing I would go back to basics - show brush, one very tiny treat for good behaviour. Touch with brush, same again. Finish session. Very, very gradually build up to several strokes for a treat. With multiple sessions a day it is surprising how quickly you can build up to several minutes of grooming, which is probably enough for a very young puppy.

Counter surfing - remove the food from the counters or the dog from the kitchen until she is a bit older. Once she understands that four feet on the floor, or settling in her own place, work more consistently to get rewards than grabbing, I would set her up a bed in the kitchen and teach her to wait there, but at the moment, as Eric says, the sheer bonanza of grabbing fabulous human food and probably getting a huge reaction and a game of chase out of you as well are going to be so incredibly rewarding that it management is likely to prove more successful than trying to stop her! I would play lots of games of swapsies so that you can take her prize from her if necessary too.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

You have to keep the counters antiseptically clean and remove any and all temptations from that long SPOO reach. If they are successful at snagging something tasty/forbidden once, they will try again. Buck, my 7 month old SPOO, recently grabbed some checks and the deposit slip from the middle of the counter. Luckily, we were able to grab the checks before he attempted to cash them. Lol. Good luck!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i am going to repeat my experience: when my dog took my shoe and chewed it up, and when he growled at me with regard to giving up a piece of raw chicken i had given him, i bared my teeth (i was down on his level, so very much in his face), growled at him and took them away. in the case of the shoe, it was put back in its place at the front door. in the case of the piece of chicken, i stood up and gave it back to him. the shoe (nor any item of mine) was ever taken or chewed again. no food was ever stolen or quarreled over, either - and my dog was a foodie.

my dog was about the size of a mini and about six months old when this happened. with his crate training complete, i never worried about leaving him at home with freedom to roam. some of this is a matter of temperament, i believe. high energy dogs - let's face it - simply have more energy to power themselves into mischief. a seriously motivated to explore dog may require crating when left alone. (yes, i know. doesn't sound nice, which is why we all shy away from it.)

keeping counters clean works for some people. but there are dogs clever enough to open cabinets and doors. owners need to think about those things, too, as being able and inclined to do so can mean danger to the dog.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Here's what I find to be sound advice for dealing with counter surfing.
Counter Surfing is an All Too-Frequent Dog Behavior Issue for Many Dog Owners.
Tutorial: Solving Counter Surfing- Clicker Dog Training by kikopup
http://youtu.be/xZCIeEUm_n8

You might also want to look at some of *PammiPoodle*'s wonderful grooming threads and videos. She's a groomer member with two toy poodles and a very calm approach. 
http://www.poodleforum.com/9-poodle-grooming/15574-groomy-lumi.html#post192363
Just for inspiration, here's a video of a spoo puppy getting his first groom. I just love how it shows the benefits of confident, calm handling. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hi9sOUw1vo


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Your advice is stellar... Mfmst, Fjm. Great links CM! Anything you can do to prevent is always great. URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Carriebrent/media/notworthy.gif.html]







[/URL] Please don't take advice to put your dog on the defensive in any way, shape or form ever. It's a good way to get your face bitten.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

ericwd9 said:


> I know I am asking for a flaming from the positive reinforcement brigade but: At 3 months and younger a Dam will discipline her puppies. She will snap at them if they bite her and cuff them lightly to show displeasure in their bad behavior. Like very young children you do not have a good communication path with them until they learn some language. When she bites you show your displeasure say OUCH!, turn you back, walk away and ignore the dog. Push her carefully off the counter, say NO! in a growling voice at the same time. If this has no effect at all a light cuff is not pleasant and when accompanied by a NO! should eventually work. Be sure to reward the dog whenever he/she earns it. You must be consistent and not provide opportunities for the dog to jump the counter when you are not present. These opportunities can be so rewarding (big piece of steak etc) that the dog will continue for ever!
> You will get a lot more advice on these problems if you search this forum since these are both common problems that come up often.
> Eric.


i think one's response may need to be calibrated to some extent by the dog. i am reminded of what an old friend and former journalist once told me about an interview with charles lindbergh. he was asked if he believed in spanking and his answer was, "it depends on the child." i think much of what we do or think we should do with our dogs depends on the dog, too. there are "soft" dogs and "hard" dogs and in-between dogs, too. that being said, i have to tell the story of my neighbor, who had small dogs. i think they might well have been from that group some are trying to foist off on people as a new breed, the mi-ki. my neighbor's technique for dealing with the pups who nipped her was to nip back. seriously. she claimed after doing it once, she never had to worry again about her pups nipping her. makes sense to me. but i still would have problems doing it.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Your advice is stellar... Mfmst, Fjm. Great links CM! Anything you can do to prevent is always great. URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Carriebrent/media/notworthy.gif.html]
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Please don't think that your way is the only way.

Dogs are dynamic living creatures, and different dogs with different temperaments will best be served by variable interventions depending upon the specifics. The OP should pay attention to all techniques which have proven successful for any PF, and pick and choose what they think will best fit their dog in their situation - nobody is a better judge of that than them!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Alex2592*, One of my favorite TED talks from years ago was given by Dr. Ian Dunbar, veterinarian, animal behaviorist, and dog trainer. In it he discusses his POV on dog-friendly training. You might find it worthwhile viewing.
Ian Dunbar: Dog-friendly dog training | Talk Video | TED.com
You can get lots more great dog training advice from Dr. Dunbar here.
Dog Star Daily


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

tp, i agree that there are choices out there and that people need to be aware of them. here are some excerpts from an interview with _*jean donaldson*_, one of the gurus of positive training. it speaks to two critical issues - recognizing that there are breed differences that affect training and that competence as a trainer is not guaranteed by the method one chooses to employ. clearly donaldson opts for one specific training method. but as someone who appears to be more interested in real knowledge as opposed to blind adherence to a belief system, she makes some interesting points. 

_"So the belief that bully breeds are more difficult to train has no merit?_
They are more difficult to train to do certain tasks. I think if you are trying to train something that goes against the breed, that’s valid. But to teach a dog to sit or to come when called or not to growl around the food dish, then the playing field is level if you’ve got good technical knowledge.

_Any last thoughts for our readers on the important qualities in dog trainers?_
The great leveler is good technical knowledge … so there are two discussions. One is, are you technically competent? The other is, what is your philosophy, vis-à-vis, do you use pain in training? I think those are two discussions that people tend to muddle together, and say, well, you’re only competent when you use positive reinforcement. Well, not necessarily. You can only use positive reinforcement and be incompetent. Likewise, you can use punishment and be competent or incompetent. So these are modular qualities in trainers.

People need to be informed consumers. They need to know what they will be getting. They are going to be paying someone money to do something that first of all could do the dog harm, second of all could make the dog worse, so they have to consider the two issues of competence and philosophy, and make sure that they get somebody who is competent, and then somebody who philosophically makes them feel comfortable."


note that donaldson says that competence is not guaranteed by adhering to one or another method of training, but for her the use of pain is the dividing line, not punishment per se. in operant conditioning, "punishment" does not necessarily mean physical pain. i would add that as owners, we should not fool ourselves. ian dunbar holds that collars and leashes are coercive. that is so obvious to me, yet some are in denial about that reality. anyone who uses a leash on his/her dog is using a coercive tool. anyone who crates a dog for even 60 seconds to isolate it for misbehavior is using "punishment." does this mean humans should beat their dogs? no, it doesn't. it means there are many ways to achieve a training objective and it's up to the owner to be informed about the tools available and to use them correctly. what is correct may well depend on the dog as much as on the owner.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> tp, i agree that there are choices out there and that people need to be aware of them. here are some excerpts from an interview with _*jean donaldson*_, one of the gurus of positive training. it speaks to two critical issues - recognizing that there are breed differences that affect training and that competence as a trainer is not guaranteed by the method one chooses to employ. clearly donaldson opts for one specific training method. but as someone who appears to be more interested in real knowledge as opposed to blind adherence to a belief system, she makes some interesting points.
> 
> _"So the belief that bully breeds are more difficult to train has no merit?_
> They are more difficult to train to do certain tasks. I think if you are trying to train something that goes against the breed, that’s valid. But to teach a dog to sit or to come when called or not to growl around the food dish, then the playing field is level if you’ve got good technical knowledge.
> ...



Very well said, except personally I would change the last sentence to read "what is correct ALL depends upon the dog" - in my opinion it has almost nothing to do with the owner! Every single intervention that you make should have a thought-out purpose - a goal that you believe it will achieve for that particular dog. Yes, you may get it wrong, and use that experience to plan a different intervention next time, but it should never have anything to do with the owner - it is only about communicating the desired behavior to the particular dog.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

in principle i don't disagree, tp, but it's a bit hard for an owner with an 8 week old puppy to "know" the dog; that may take some time. as i said, my own dog was several months old when i got him. it was possible to have a much better idea of his disposition and temperament at that age.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> in principle i don't disagree, tp, but it's a bit hard for an owner with an 8 week old puppy to "know" the dog; that may take some time. as i said, my own dog was several months old when i got him. it was possible to have a much better idea of his disposition and temperament at that age.



Well, I have not had any 8 week old pups - only those in the 13-16 week range, so I don't know for sure, but my gut feeling is that for a pup that young I wouldn't make any interventions, just care for them as the infant that they are, and wait until 
I felt that they had the capacity to learn and remember.


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## Alex2592 (Jan 10, 2015)

Hi guys, thank you all so much for you replies. Your suggestions have worked amazingly. Éva is getting very comfortable when I groom her. She even let's me put bows on her.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Glad things are working- she is a beautiful pup!


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## Axeldog (Aug 29, 2014)

Eva is adorable! 

Happy that you are having success in grooming her.


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