# Molly won't come



## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Molly is 2 1/2, and oh so different than Callie who responds to commands quickly and happily. She is a loving happy girl, follows me everywhere but she is unfocused.
If Molly does not want to come, she just stares at me or will walk within arms length and then run away and try to play or just avoid. Other times she will happily come. It is not as if she is fearful of being scolded as her training has always been positive reinforcement for obedience and just walk away when she is not. She is totally food motivated in training and focuses on the reward, not on me) She learns quickly, but after phasing out reward food, then she decides whether to come if there is no reward. Praising for "coming" doesn't seem to be enough. Praising her, giving her hugs, even tried a clicker - its still erratic.
I have been unable to get her to play a normal game of fetch. She will dance all around with her squeaky toy because she wants to play, but then won't hand it to me. I've tried to get her to distinguish between "chase me" and "give" but give willingly she refuses to do until she wants to. Rewards don't work with this because if she knows I have a reward, she will drop the toy yards away from me and come for the reward.
I'm stumped!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

A rock solid recall is an essential and potentially life saving command. It is wise to be concerned about a dog who is mediocre on this behavior. I would suggest going back to basics and reteach the recall for Molly with lots of rewards given lavishly and with enthusiasm for great responses.

Here is how I teach my beginner class students to teach a recall. First I have them do a game I call "get it, get it" to reinforce the dog's attention to his/her name. The next step is to do the "with me" attention exercise which will reward the dog for offering to move towards and with you. Do both of these on leash. You may want a long line for get it as the dog understands the game better. Once these two things have made your dog interested in coming towards you then you can go back to telling the dog to wait and recall on a six foot leash at first, then a long line. Do not allow the order to come to be ignored. If you say come and Molly doesn't come or comes part way then use your leash to get her moving towards you again. Don't yank hard, just apply a bit of pressure, enough to get her on the way in. When she gets close enough that you would be able to put your hand on her collar tell her to sit. Reach out and put your hand through her collar and give treats from your other hand. Then let her go and tell her to go play. She needs to understand that coming to you is not a fun killer.

If you look in this thread http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/205393-javelins-road-ring-ready.html you will find descriptions (and I think some video) on those games.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

I pay Sammy REALLY, REALLY well for coming to me when I call him. He gets cheese strings, freeze dried liver, hot dogs... My trainer said that if you were handed $2000 every time you came over, you will make sure you come over. I think that makes sense! I found his recall got 10x better since I started rewarding him really well.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What's happened here, is the food reward has become the cue. This is why she's only doing it if you have food. And you're right. Praising for coming isn't enough. They get that anyhow all day long. Your reinforcer needs to be better...a LOT better and novel and it needs to be hidden in a bowl on the counter in the kitchen, on the mantle piece if you have a fire place, on a high shelf in a book case, on a dresser. It needs to be in your pocket if you're outside or on a stump, on a high wall near where you're working but don't let her see it. She will probably know you have it on you anyhow, but do your best to make it unknown to her. 

A bridge (or conditioned reinforcer) needs to be employed if she's not going to get the treat within a few seconds of compliance. So, when you have treats not immediately available, it's really helpful to use a marker word or a clicker. But it still shouldn't take more than 3 or 4 seconds to grab a treat. So you use your marker/identifier and within a very few seconds, supply the treat. Every time. (for a while...then later go on a variable schedule) Never use your marker word without following up with a reinforcer. Important! 

Be certain you're not bribing her with the food, even inadvertently. 

When I train anything, it's ALL fun and games...always. Everything is joyful and I try to make it interesting by varying things like location, context, position of each of us. Mix things up a little. Change your food reward. Use the best stuff for the more difficult exercises. 

Make sure you're practicing at first in a boring environment so that it's easy for you to be _the most exciting_, toy squeaking person, running the other way, jumping around, hiding behind things. Make this fun and engaging for her. If you must, use a long line. But try to make it her choice to come to the best thing, the best fun, the tastiest, the only really great thing in her environment. This way she'll get lots of reinforcement and THAT'S what will make the difference. She needs a big bank account...stuffed to the brim with many reinforcers. She needs to develop a history of being reinforced so that in her mind, there is simply no better way than to comply. It must be worth her while. And like you say, there must NEVER be any punishment associated with coming. 

Sometimes though, we inadvertently punish them for coming. Be sure and don't do anything yucky when she comes...like clipping her nails or calling her in from having a marvelous time to stopping all the fun. Or calling her away from another puppy and abruptly ending all that outdoor fun. And any time she comes to you on her own accord, reinforce that too. 

There are some exercises to teach her not to look at your hands when you have treats, but to look in your eyes. Hold the treats in your hands and don't say anything. Just wait. The second she makes eye contact (and she will eventually) use your marker word, like, "Yesssss!" or whatever you want and supply the treat from somewhere other than the hand she formerly was looking at. In other words, for instance, hold a treat in your hand where she can look at it and one behind your back or in a fanny pack. When you give the treat, don't give the one from the hand she was looking at before. Surprise her by getting it from random places. So, don't look at my hand, look at my eyes and you WILL get a treat. Gradually, over time, increase the duration she must have eye contact with you before getting clicked/treated. 

It sounds, from her shenanigans that you and she need to engage more with each other and get some more focus on you. That will come with more exercises in attention getting, like (look it up) "Look at that." That's one way. But doing lots of more structured obedience practice with loads of reward and fun will get her more engaged. Be sure you set her up to succeed by setting up the environment so that you are more cool than anything else around. And that it's easier for her to comply and thereby getting more reinforcers. If something is hard for her, break it down into smaller steps. If retrieving is hard, have her bring it back from a much, much shorter distance. If she wants to play with the thing, make that thing not so fun to play with but fun to bring it to YOU. lol. If coming to you is hard, then figure out what you can do to make it easier and more enticing. 

When you play fetch, do it in a boring room of the house, not out where she has more fun doing other things. Throw it only a short distance...a couple of feet. Make yourself highly amusing and when she brings it almost to you...not even all the way, reward her. Meet her half way at first. Then up the ante a little bit. Sometimes another ball helps. She brings you one...or almost to you, then you throw the other. Fast and furious. Get her revved up and having fun with you. Gradually increase the pressure...longer distance throws, more distracting rooms, then finally outside in the yard. Make sure when she brings it to you...all the way that you jack pot her with what she likes best. If it's another throw of the ball, do it quickly. Don't make her wait. That's her reward.

Anyhow, I have a whole long thing written out that is one of my chapters in a book I started writing. But if you think this is long, ya outta see that. lol. Hope some of these tips help. My dogs have super recalls because it's just so important to me. And I never stop practicing with them. I've gotten it so they don't need treats every time, but I never completely stop with the reinforcing...absolutely not.

Your dog will get onto this and it is definitely a vital thing to get good so that comes from lots of practice along with a really good working relationship with your dog. And it can take a little time, so hang in there and happy training!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Oh, I missed that you already know about a clicker. 

Well, yeah...when she drops the thing she's bringing to you because she's too eager for the treat, I'd give her the treat once. Then I'd withhold the treat. See if she'll bring it a little closer. Then reward. Then withhold again and see if she'll bring it yet more close. If she can't seem to focus, then there's maybe too much going on around her and she needs things closed in on her a little more...a bathroom might be a good room to play a few rounds. Someplace where the only fun thing is the retrieve game. There's nothing else to do. Break it down into smaller steps for her....not the whole thing and then work up gradually toward the ultimate goal. You can also back chain...teach the last part of the retrieve first and work your way back toward the first part. Have her hold the thing in her mouth and drop it in your hands for a reward. Teach "take." And "give" first.

Another thing I have always done when my dogs were learning to come when called was to never use a cue...never call your dog to come unless she's already coming and almost to you where you can get hold of her. (not until reliable) I did lots of my training in the wilderness on hikes. The dogs would come, get a treat and then be released (using a release word) to go have fun again. So it's no skin off their noses if they come. They get a tasty treat, praise and get to go back to what they were doing. So my dogs got so they'd check in. They'd voluntarily come as well as on cue. It's good when hiking. They don't get to go out of my sight. Anyhow, be sure not to inadvertently punish by ending the fun altogether.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I asked a similar question and got some great responses - here is my post...

http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...219594-how-do-you-train-top-notch-recall.html

One thing I never do is chase my dog - sadly that's one of her favorite games, but I don't want to encourage running away from me.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Matisse loves it when I chase him around the house. But then I turn and run the other way and he chases me. I hide and he comes and finds me. So, it can be done as a fun game. But not if you call him to come. lol. That's no good if he runs the other way. That's when I would have to run the other way away from him and hide. lol. He seems to know the difference between a game like that and when I really want him to come. Maurice isn't into that game. lol. He's a little more into traditional games. :act-up:


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Skylar said:


> I asked a similar question and got some great responses - here is my post...
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/23-gener...219594-how-do-you-train-top-notch-recall.html
> 
> *One thing I never do is chase my dog - sadly that's one of her favorite games, but I don't want to encourage running away from me.*



If you love this game, you can still play it. Seriously. If you don't use the same cue, for one thing, it's a different thing. Remember that thing about dogs not generalizing well? This is just that, but in your favor. I usually run toward him and I look totally different from when I'm calling him to come. I make my hands open and close like a monster game you play with kids and I bend forward and go toward him. (usually a scary thing for dogs you don't know...don't do it) But in my dogs case, they know very well it's a game. Sometimes Matisse goes one way through the living/dining room, through the kitchen and I go the other way and we meet half way. Then one of us turns and runs the other way again. (circular floor plan) Then I might go hide in a room and I call, "come find me." And he does. Then I go chase him. 

Now...this is something that you can do if you're afraid he won't come when you need him to. You stop the game for a moment and stand still and call him to come the way you usually do with your recall. And reward him with a good, high value treat. Then go play the game again. Volley back and forth. It is very effective to teach the contrast between the two behaviors. Just use different cues, different contexts and mix up your locations. These _are_ different behaviors. 

If his recall isn't very good in the first place, get that better before you play chase games. Practice your recall using highly tasty treats often. I do every day a little bit. My dogs have very reliable recalls. Excellent. And they totally get the difference between chase _games_ and come when you're called.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Maybe you phased out food rewards too quickly? I would reintroduce them. Also come up with a treat that you can easily hide on your person (not in an obvious treat bag) so you can surprise her. You don't want her to be able to tell whether you have the treat or not.

One thing you can do is wait until she happens to be coming to you anyway, then call her. Then when she gets to you, give her the previously hidden treat. Think of a variety of awesome treats and change it up so she doesn't know what she's getting. 

When phasing out the treat for something like this, the model you want to use is gambling. Specifically, slot machines. The thing that keeps people sitting at a slot machine all day is that it periodically pays out small and large rewards. You know the thing is capable of giving you a full-on jackpot, but you don't know how often it happens. So it's reasonable to think that maybe it'll be this time. You want your recall to be like that. Sometimes you give a small reward, a lot of the time no reward, and occasionally the BEST REWARD EVER. Your dog knows the jackpot _might_ be there, but has no way of knowing when you have it and when they'll get it.

You also want to look out for what follows a recall. If you only call your dog when you're about to leash up or go back inside, they might decide it's not worth it. So you want to get into the habit of occasionally calling the dog, rewarding or praising, and then going back to what you were doing.

I also like to reward Archie for coming to me unprompted, especially if we're in a distracting environment. When he's off-leash somewhere, he's now in the habit of occasionally bolting back toward me, because he knows he'll get a Praise Party (at least) if he does it. So that alone makes it easier to get him to come on command, because he already thinks coming to me is great fun.

One last thing you can try, especially if your dog is very you-focused, is just waiting until they're distracted and hiding out of sight. When they look up and see that you're missing, they'll get worried and decide to find you. Then if you call and they run to you, just getting the reassurance that you're still there acts as a reward. I guess it's a little emotionally manipulative, but it works.


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## poshandpoodles (Mar 22, 2017)

These are all great points.

I second (or third...?) to go back to the basics and make it a fun game.

I would stress not to call her to come unless you can make it happen if she chooses not to (especially when developing the recall). She needs to understand that EVERYTIME you tell her to come she must do it. This does not mean punishing her for it. It should always be a fun and rewarding experience for her. 

I was trained to keep Moses on a long line when we started practicing our recalls. That or a short line that you can get a hold of if needed. Start out holding the long line and after a while, once you've got good recalls with that, you can drop it. The idea is that it is still attached in case you need to reel them in. If I called "come" and he came willing then I gave him lots of praise and treats. If I called "come" and he decided he didn't want to, I'd gently reel him in; once he got to me then I would praise him for a "good come". The idea is that it's more fun for him to come on his own than for me to make him come. But either way it's not punishment. 

We were also told to make sure you get a hand on their collar/ leash so that they don't develop the habit of coming to get the treat and then turning and running off on their own accord. They need your permission to go back to playing. 

It's a constant training exercise to get great recalls. We're still practicing. Another game we were taught was to throw a treat out (make sure it's something visible) and call them back to come and sit. Praise them and then throw out another. You can do this on a long line to start so that if she decided to linger you could gently pull her back to you. I always like to cue them with their name first so those listening ears start working ( Moses...COME!) and I use a firm authoritative voice when give that command. I don't beg him to come, I tell him to. 

The check-in game is great too especially when they're playing with other dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

A long line is great IF you need it...if you're in an non-fenced area or if there is some other huge distraction or danger. But I prefer to have my dog think and _choose_ to come to me if at all possible. And how that is achieved is to NOT, NOT, NOT use a cue at all to elicit the behavior...not until way down the road. And that goes for _everything_. Do not call your dog to come unless he's already coming, within arms reach that you can get hold of his collar and reward, give your release word and turn him loose again. Do not cue the dog to come because if he doesn't, you're screwed. :afraid: lol. It really doesn't much matter what kind of voice you use or what word. I inflect my voice and make the word, "come" very short and high pitched and it is like a question almost, kind of a silly sound like we're going to have fun. What makes my dogs recall so good nowadays is that they have had a long enough history of reinforcement for coming. It's the _consequence_ that drives _all_ behavior, not the cue. So you can use a variety of ways to entice your dog to come, from squeaking a toy or your voice, jumping around, running the opposite way, hiding, throwing a ball straight up into the air by you...in other words, making something look so fun and be so rewarding that your dog will choose to come, then reinforce big time when he gets there. Later on you'll be adding your cue to pair with the act of coming (when you're able to grab his collar and feed) and then still later, you'll be able to elicit the behavior with your cue. Or even multiple cues. I had hand signals for my past dogs and a silent whistle. I haven't really done much with these guys. Maybe I'll do that for fun one of these days. I think they get the hand signal, just from osmosis, but we haven't done a silent whistle. That's pretty fun.

Once he gets quite regular about this, and he's already coming, just about within your reach, you're positive he's coming, go ahead and insert your cue word..."come" or "here" or whatever you choose that will be your word. I use "come" for when I want my dogs to come and sit right in front of me and "let's go" for a less formal arrival...just that they come along with me. I may be walking and want them to catch up...just come near me. 

Once that starts getting doggone reliable, then try out your cue words to elicit the behavior. IF your dog does not comply, he is not ready for that yet. Go back to what you were doing before and get him more reliable...maybe better treats, vary the type of treats or toys, whatever you dog loves best.

Then down the road a little more, stop rewarding for hesitant recalls or slow ones and only reward the best. This is how you shape that behavior to be better. DO NOT REPEAT YOUR CUE. This is a very easy thing to slip into and it's no good. The cue then becomes a long string of the same word. Soon that won't work and you'll have to attach another string of the same word. Simply put, your dog is not complying. He is not being stubborn or blowing you off or being naughty. He needs more practice where he _can_ succeed and get a reinforcer that's worth his while. That's just how they work. Maybe someplace with fewer distractions, which you should have been adding gradually all along. Maybe some better reward. Maybe a new location to add interest or a shorter session...just one or two recalls and then do something else. 

Anyhow, he'll get there. It's a process.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Thank you so much. I obviously have some work to do!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

SusanG said:


> Thank you so much. I obviously have some work to do!


Susan...I see that by the time I wrote subsequent posts, I repeated so much of what I already wrote. I have a short memory. lol.:redface: But I just want to say in response to the quote above, don't look at it as work. It's PLAY! :bounce:It's for having fun with your dog. That's why we have dogs. It's a growing up process. These things don't happen over night. So don't feel too pressured other than pacing this in a steady way...some little practice every day. It will all come together. And one more thing: As you do more stuff with your dog, the subsequent skills will come faster because he'll learn HOW to learn. It just snowballs. So don't think it's all going to go as slowly as it does at first. With some good training methods under your belt and a dog who is learning how to learn and who finds it very satisfying, he'll be all about it. That's what I love about PR methods...the dog loves learning, never feels shut down, is eager and willing to comply, throws new behaviors etc as long as he understands what we mean. Keep us posted on your progress. :wink:


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Yup - bribe a smart dog once, they expect a bribe. You have lost the power of reinforcement.

Chase a smart dog once, they expect a chase. You have lost big time.

And.... did you do temperament testing when they were 7 or 8 weeks old? Or did you go by 'cute', or by what was available? (I have now met the dogs I bypassed when they were cute puppies. Wow, so glad I did temperament testing.)

Your choice. Sorry to be so direct. But we all have choices in what we choose to do.

And so do our dogs.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

kontiki said:


> Yup - bribe a smart dog once, they expect a bribe. You have lost the power of reinforcement.
> 
> Chase a smart dog once, they expect a chase. You have lost big time.
> 
> ...



Wow, that sounds really grim and hopeless. And I don't think it is AT ALL. It's a matter of getting hold of a few training tools and turning things around. I've seen so many worse things and had to work through unimaginable behavior that this is just nothing. It's going to be fine. 

Not everyone _does_ have a choice. Not everyone has built in dog experience or all the tools in the tool box. But all that is attainable. After all, dogs do what works and if something doesn't work, that behavior will extinguish...most behaviors like this, in a couple of weeks. People learn. There are lots of neat books. There's even a book list somewhere on this forum if you do a search. There's great stuff online. (Kikopup has awesome videos for free) There are professionals that can be hired, classes to attend etc. 

I don't think that a dog that hasn't learned a good recall means that he has a bad temperament. It's a matter of training and finding out how. I never acquired a puppy that had temperament testing. In fact, while there may be some value in that, I certainly don't think it's all she wrote. Not at all. I've seen dogs with lousy temperaments become terrific dogs with good handling. And visa versa. I've seen dogs with good, inborn temperaments be ruined by lousy handling.

I do not believe that all is lost if a few mistakes have been made. That's just silly. I've worked with dogs that are so screwed up that it makes this dog look like a super star. 



So Susan...I forgot to mention another little thing. When you're training your dog, keep the question in your mind, how can I make the reinforcer I use more valuable? How about a hungry dog? Plan a practice time before dinner time. We're talking 5 minutes or whatever your pup can do where he's still interested. Don't go past that. Stop while he's still having fun. Leave him wanting more. Of course, you'll practice other little times too but a hungry dog might be happy with a less tasty treat and a full dog might require a better treat. Or a dog that hasn't gotten a walk that day might really love a walk and you're about ready to take him anyhow. Wait until he does some behavior you like and then offer to go for a walk. Do you need to teach him to lie down? You can wait until he does on his own and catch him at it, praise, treat if you have a treat nearby. You don't have to do too much all the time to teach. Sometimes while I'm emptying my dishwasher, I'll ask one of the dogs to sit/stay. If I'm walking to the laundry room I might ask for a heel or practice a little pivot. Just one. And maybe toss a toy. And that's that for the time being. So, it's accumulative. A little something here and a little something there. It's all good. Your dog is adorable and the silly business and inattention is totally normal for a dog that needs some training.

I'm sure others will have some more ideas for you to try. Plus, if you have any questions or have difficulty, do ask. There are lots of people who have been through similar stuff and lots of help. Let us know how things go. And they _will_ go forward. :amen:


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

kontiki said:


> Yup - bribe a smart dog once, they expect a bribe. You have lost the power of reinforcement.
> 
> Chase a smart dog once, they expect a chase. You have lost big time.
> 
> ...


Kontiki - I'm really surprised by this reply. I don't find it constructive and encouraging. I like to support an encouraging atmosphere in PF, not drive someone to shut down. 

Recall is a hard task for a lot of dogs, and it needs a lot of practice. How did you train your dog? 

Most dogs don't get temperament tests at the breeder. Also most training methods out there use food as a reinforcer. I really don't think SusanG has "lost it". I like how she's hoping to improve Molly's recall skills. I'm not trying to cause a fight, but I like to make sure everyone feels welcomed at PF.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Sammy I agree that SusanG can make her recall for Molly better (by going back to basics as a couple of people have suggested), but I also agree with Kontiki that it can be complex to reteach those things to smart dogs if they have expectations that have high value to them, not impossible but perhaps hard and so better not to set up the scenario of this as a problem in the first place. I also have to say I think the worst thing to do with a dog that doesn't want to recall is to chase it. It is much better to run away from that dog and let it think that chasing you is the game. I helped a neighbor get back a dog that was running all over one day by having her run towards her house. I had been walking Lily down a very long block and watching this woman trying to catch the dog for at least 15-20 minutes. She had no leash, no treats, no toy and just kept calling the dog to little avail and then reaching for the collar when she thought the dog was close enough to do so. Her dog followed her to the front lawn when she ran towards her home. Unfortunately she reached for the collar before I could stop her and the dog took off again (but not too far). I started throwing treats to it to keep it close while she went in the house to get a leash. By the time she came back with the leash I had the dog by the collar.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Kontiki. No I did not get Molly because she was cute. We planned carefully and I looked for a female (preferably silver, but was ok with white, cream) for 6 months. I probably talked to 25 breeders over that time. I originally was seeking a teenager because we camp in the summer and getting a 10 week old would not have been the best training situation (June to Sept) No 4 month to 1 year old females were available anywhere in the US - it was a year for males I guess. Or the breeders did not answer my questions adequately. It took six months before I found a good breeder expecting a litter and after speaking with her, getting health and background (CH dogs and father GCH) I reserved a puppy. There were only 2 females in the litter and the breeder kept one female for show. I flew 3000 miles to carry her home. 
Molly is just a very different personality and was from the beginning, much more active. She was hyperexcited being with Callie (and still jumps on her) Unfortunately, Callie is not a playful dog with other dogs and won't give chase like Molly wants, but she took her on as if she was her puppy and accepted her and they are companionable and get along well.
Molly has 2 speeds, calm,extremely affectionate, friendly to all, gentle and laid back - and then full of it, distractable and headstrong, into everything, very oral and lickey and food obsessed. Compared to Callie, she was a difficult puppy, carrying on for hours if put in a crate, etc. although we followed Dunbar's training methods the same as we did for Callie. Not that she was untrainable or bad, just much harder to train because of her oral fixation and over excitability every time there was a treat and excess energy compared to Callie. She's a beautiful girl and loves everyone whereas Callie is more laid back reserved around strangers and other dogs.
I'm doing the best I can with training and will try poodlebeguiled's suggestions which are good advice. I'm sure they will work. 
But, no, Molly was not an impulse purchase because she was cute (although she was). It would have been great to have temperament testing, but its not always possible for a breeder to do for mini or toy litters when they are so small.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I also agree that it's not a good idea to chase a dog when you are trying to have it come when you call it to come or if he's escaped. I happen to be able to play chase games and my dogs recall reliably and promptly because to them it's an _entirely_ different thing to play chase and to come when cued to come. And if a dog has no recall, it's best to wait for games like chasing the dog until it does, as I mentioned in a past post. And yes, of course, running away from the dog sometimes entices him to chase or come to you. However, I do not agree that it is going to be that hard to turn things around if handled correctly. This is_ so_ not a lost cause. If the behavior you don't like is_ prevented,_ if it never works for the dog, but the behavior you do want does work and is set up so it_ has_ to work, that reinforced behavior is the behavior the dog will choose. The more times he chooses that, the more he is reinforced, it will become the new norm. He'll also get so he likes working with you more as time goes on and you practice with him in an effective way. I suggest a trainer to help you. A class, privates, someone recommended that uses PR methods. No punishment.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Fortunately, Molly is like velcro with me. Outside, she will not let me out of her sight and will come when called. She sticks with Callie who has good recall. Its hit and miss with her, almost exclusively in the house, sometimes she will come, others she takes her sweet time. If I let her loose in the yard, it is always with Callie, and she has a thin long leash on her so if something happens I can get to her. I wouldn't trust her completely in other settings though, if she saw another dog or person I suspect she would run right over to them to say hello. I'm lucky I live in a quiet neighborhood on a cul du sac


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Susan, how you describe Molly reminds me a little bit of Matisse when he was a puppy. But he couldn't settle long enough to cuddle for more than about 10 seconds. lol. He was such a busy body! So was my Doberman as a puppy...absolutely hell on wheels!!! He was snuggly a little longer before he got busy but he was crazy busy and unfocused for a while. Before too terribly long, both dogs became the BEST dogs to train that I ever had or ever worked with....the most enthusiastic, joyful, grabbing at life with all paws. Everything they do is done with great gusto. Everything happens promptly. Sits, recalls, heeling...everything is done with snappiness. My Matisse is just like my Dobe...when he is asked to do something, he's all ears and when he's finished with one thing, he looks at me in earnest, asking what else can he do? He's so ready to comply and think and train...loves it. So if you channel that energy in a constructive way, you'll love it just a little later that you had a crazy dog. Did you ever read this? It's just wonderful. Take a look. https://clickertraining.com/node/1721

So, while most people are trying to subdue their dogs or finding a temperament flaw in a very exuberant dog, I see a dog that's going to be a blast to train, once you have some good training tools. (I don't mean mechanical tools, but some helpful methods) Molly will be fine if you get the help you need along the way.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

SusanG said:


> Fortunately, Molly is like velcro with me. Outside, she will not let me out of her sight and will come when called. She sticks with Callie who has good recall. * Its hit and miss with her, almost exclusively in the house, sometimes she will come, others she takes her sweet time.* If I let her loose in the yard, it is always with Callie, and she has a thin long leash on her so if something happens I can get to her. I wouldn't trust her completely in other settings though, if she saw another dog or person I suspect she would run right over to them to say hello. I'm lucky I live in a quiet neighborhood on a cul du sac


This sounds as if you simply need to beef up your reinforcers. When she comes to you on her own, have a super duper tasty treat ready and lots of praise too. Remember not to call her when she's so unreliable at this point in time. Go to her or try to entice her by some other means other than your cue. Sometimes bending down and looking at some imaginary thing that's just "fascinating" gets them running. lol. Then if she comes over, woo hooo...make it fun and have a treat. Then she can go back to what she was doing. All that will help build up that bank account she needs. The best recalls happen after lots of time has passed...where there has been a steady build-up of reinforcing going on for some time. The bigger that bank account, the more reliable it becomes. And down the road, you can start adding, little by little some mild distractions at first, then increase that as she is capable of handling them. My dogs won't likely come so well if there's a huge distraction. They're not there yet. Their recall is wonderful and prompt, fantastic when they're by themselves or if there's one other person with me in the field where we practice or some other off leash place. They're good...getting better, but they're not completely there yet. I fear if there were a big distraction like another dog they just saw or a cat (god forbid) they might not come. So it's a work in progress. I don't work with them as much as I could so that might be one factor too. My Dobe was stupendous. He'd come mid chase of some deer. It didn't matter what distraction there was, he complied. But that was what he was bred for...to work for his owner. 

Do you not have a fenced back yard? If not, then the long line is a must...glad you have that. You're right in that you can't trust a dog completely...100% no matter how well he's trained. imo.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Nope, no fenced in yard due to the way its landscaped. I don't take them in the back yard - its surrounded by woods which are "fascinating" to Callie. And woods are tick laden, have foxes and a fisher. I have a 15 x 30' pen right outside the back door they can "go" in but I never leave them alone in it because of the wildlife. We stick with the front yard (as I said, center house of 3, on a small cul du sac), a remote dog park (which has a small dog arena which is almost never occupied by anyone but us) and I take them for walks on a flex leash in the big park across the street where they can run and explore safely, or walks around the neighborhood on a short leash.
We have wanted to move on occasion but haven't found anything as ideal as our location with large spaces between houses. 
Oh yes, taking Molly out - her greatest activity in the summer - eating grass and then bringing it back on the rug. She loves grass (I bought her some, but she won't eat that) she likes outside grass - even in the dog park! Little imp that she is.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

I had a dog that had a tough time with recall. She would look me directly in the face, know what I wanted, and give me the finger. It was stressful. I could not figure out what I was doing wrong, until I realized that her personality made it harder for her to recall than other dogs. She was high prey drive/low biddable. Meaning, she was far more interested in her own agenda than in mine. 

Some dogs have a personality that just makes them harder to train. 

Do you want a treat? No.
Do you want a ball? No.
Do you want to chase this toy? No.
What do you want? To lie here under this bush and watch you look like an idiot. 

I thought I was the world's worst dog trainer. Then I realized I just had a dog who was difficult to motivate. Not impossible to train, but a real challenge. The only thing that worked with this dog was the chase me game. I ran around and she chased me. 

I wish you luck. A strong willed dog can be a handful.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Click-N-Treat said:


> I had a dog that had a tough time with recall. *She would look me directly in the face, know what I wanted, and give me the finger. It was stressful. I could not figure out what I was doing wrong, until I realized that her personality made it harder for her to recall than other dogs. She was high prey drive/low biddable. Meaning, she was far more interested in her own agenda than in mine.
> 
> Some dogs have a personality that just makes them harder to train. *
> Do you want a treat? No.
> ...


:lol: Love your description. That is so Maizie, except a tennis ball or Chuck It ball was always a motivator for her.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Funny thing was, this was Honey my wonderful service dog. Honey was the perfect dog indoors and on lead. Off leash in the backyard, she forgot I existed and didn't care what I wanted. She knew how to recall, but she chose not to. Then again, Honey was a husky mix. 

When she escaped the yard, her sled dog genes took over. Honey would have run 20 miles in a straight line without any desire to stop. Calling come was pointless. Emergency Down/Stay was my only hope. That she would obey 100% of the time. Off leash, she was a handful.

But if I put that service dog vest on, POW, she was snapped to attention and was stunning in her work ethic. It's like I had two dogs that never met each other, a true split personality in that dog.

I get how hard it is to train some dogs. When you have a super biddable dog, like Noelle is, it's hard to imagine how tough it is to train a dog like Honey. Picture a dog that is high intensity with a low desire to please. I learned a lot training Honey, but never again.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I always look at these things like you have a bag of magic tricks. There is never 1 trick that works for every situation, so the more tricks in your bag, the better you'll be able to solve problems by pulling out a new trick. So I never look at anything as the only answer.

The main thing is figuring out how I (or in this case you) can be the most interesting thing in the room (or yard) to the dog. With my Giant Schnauzer, she was very Velcro. So when I would go out when she was very young, I would catch her not paying attention & I'd tuck in & hide somewhere. Generally she would suddenly freak out "WHERE's MOM" & she'd immediately start tracking me. (If she was really sidetracked, I would call her name in a sing-songy way & wait). When she found me I'd say, "GOOD FIND" (I train a lot of tracking dogs). So it became a bit of a game. Could I catch her not looking long enough to hide? Very soon.. that pup had one eye on me all the time. If I even moved like I was going to hide, she was racing toward me & I'd call her & when she got there we'd have a big love fest with lots of praise, "GOOD Come". She's at the point now that I can whistle or tilt my head & she'll race around the fence to the gate to meet me. It's a great feeling. You'll get there, it just takes patience & a bit of a trial & error to find what works for your dog.

I don't have too many dogs try to run off from me but once in awhile we'd have a dog try to play keep away OR try to bolt that came from clients or who were in one of the official programs where I was testing & evaluating. You've never had fun until someone mixes paperwork & you don't know what language a dog is trained in. But when a dog bolts or plays keep away, I run away. It takes nerves of steel but just run the opposite direction making party noises & acting like a lunatic having the most fun of my life. You'd be surprised how often the dog will end up racing to you, then you praise praise praise like the dog just brought you the million dollar lottery ticket. In fact, it's one of the things I teach anyone who worked for me as an emergency recall on a dog you don't know. I helped a woman catch her husband's Malinois in a busy shopping center that way. Dog bolted from the car & I saw it. I whistled & took off. Next thing I know I have a jogging partner. When I stopped, I had a nice dog. ((I am NOT in physical shape to run with a Malinois... they can run forever! Jeeze-a-lou!)) 

IF you can figure out a treat that is the be-all, end-all of goodies to your dog & that is used ONLY on well answered recall command, it can make a huge change.

Now having said all of this you must look at safety first. If you can't find an enclosed yard/field to train in, you need to use a long line so if the little darling bolts or gets carried away with not coming to you, it doesn't cost the dog their life  That's just devastating. 

And in the words of my favorite dogmaster, "The smarter the dog, the harder they test you." No matter the age of the dog, they are capable of adapting & changing. We humans are not as good at changing as dogs are. They're never too old, some are unwilling just as some humans are unwilling to change but overall, they're capable.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

dogsavvy you are right that we all need a good array of tools and techniques to train with and we need to be prepared to recognize that when one method doesn't work it is time to pull another one out of the bag of tricks. I also really like your expression of the concept of making yourself more interesting to the dog than the potential and actual distractions in the environment. We all recognize the sights and many of the sounds that distract our dogs, but there are things we don't hear and certainly much that we don't smell that can hold great power over them and pull their attention off us no matter how much they adore us.

I know the OP earlier expressed particular interest in the very good suggestions of one person who posted here, but I also hope she will be open to making herself familiar with the other ideas and being prepared to use them. We all should be open to expanding our skill set to incorporate ideas from different mentors. I take my obedience privates with one person, but I also take suggestions from an OTCh level trainer who comes to my classes and will be taking both Lily and Javelin (separately) to four day intensive workshops with two NOC level handlers in August. I am really looking forward to those workshops not just to improve their work, but to expand my skill set to help my beginner and novice students.


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## SusanG (Aug 8, 2009)

Working on it. I am now trying just the clicker for close work for this little food obsessed girl. I can't even sneak a treat out of the bag to prepare for training. I tried quietly taking one out 1/2 hour ahead of time and putting it far back on the counter. She came running from 2 rooms away, knew it was there and sat next to it for the whole time. Breaking it in pieces, putting it high up and trying to get her attention - while she ignored me, looked at the counter the whole time! No good. You would think she was starving! Clicker only next time and maybe I can get her undivided attention.
I wish I could afford a private professional trainer but they are out of my income range!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

SusanG focused attention is hard to obtain when there are very interesting things like treats around, but you can use the treats to get the attention. Look for my descriptions of the five cookie game in various places on PF. It is the core attention exercise I give as homework to all of my beginner and novice students.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

SusanG said:


> Working on it. I am now trying just the clicker for close work for this little food obsessed girl. I can't even sneak a treat out of the bag to prepare for training. I tried quietly taking one out 1/2 hour ahead of time and putting it far back on the counter. She came running from 2 rooms away, knew it was there and sat next to it for the whole time. Breaking it in pieces, putting it high up and trying to get her attention - while she ignored me, looked at the counter the whole time! No good. You would think she was starving! Clicker only next time and maybe I can get her undivided attention.
> I wish I could afford a private professional trainer but they are out of my income range!


Well...like I said, it's almost impossible for them NOT to know you have something good on you. They're clever that way. If they weren't, they'd never have evolved this far. lol. My dogs are the same way. They know. And not only can they smell it, they know that when we go for most walks, outdoor training times etc, they have always gotten treats so they probably will this time. It's unavoidable. But all we can do is mix things up the best we can so we're not too predictable. Your cutting up the treats ahead of time and then doing something else is good thinking. But I also let my dogs know that they have to comply first or figure out what I mean first before they'll get it. To help them figure out what I mean, sometimes that means rewarding for baby steps in the right direction and then withholding the reward the next time so they try harder. (which they will...behavioral law) So, you shape a behavior instead of trying to get the whole thing perfect at once. 

There are lots of ways to accomplish things with all the variety of dog personalities and intelligence out there. But the basic laws of behavior remain the same. Know those and then you can experiment with finding what works with your particular dog. I've worked with dogs that will fall over back wards to please, soft dogs, hard dogs, dogs bred to do other things besides work along side humans. I've trained horses years ago. I preferred the average intelligence over the highly intelligent. My Arabians required some different motivators and tactics than my childhood horse who was not Arabian. lol. They're brainy...like Poodles. And it takes creativity sometimes. Anyhow, you just have to find out what their motivator is and it can change, and it can vary between tasks and contexts. So as you work with your dog more Susan, you'll discover what floats his boat, when it does, where, what contexts, what jobs etc. You'll figure out works best as time goes and as your relationship becomes closer and you get more engaged with each other. But just remember that the fundamental concepts of behavior don't change. 

There's a book list somewhere on here that you might like. You can do a search. Some of those can be very helpful. Best wishes.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Click-N-Treat said:


> I had a dog that had a tough time with recall. She would look me directly in the face, know what I wanted, and give me the finger. It was stressful. I could not figure out what I was doing wrong, until I realized that her personality made it harder for her to recall than other dogs. She was high prey drive/low biddable. Meaning, she was far more interested in her own agenda than in mine.
> 
> Some dogs have a personality that just makes them harder to train.
> 
> ...


Hahaha....too funny. :laugh:


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Just an idea, but - if it's impossible to hide treats from Molly, try going the other way and ALWAYS have treats available. Just don't give them to her unless she earns them on her own. It'll probably take her a while to stop being obsessed with them, but if you go long enough carrying treats around without giving her any (unless she does something extraordinary to earn one), maybe she'll get used to the idea that the presence of a treat doesn't always mean she's going to get one. And then it becomes less of a lure.

I'm trying to fade out treats on a couple of things for Cleo (who is VERY food-motivated), and one thing I've started doing is having a handful of treats on me, but not giving her one every time. So sometimes she gets the treat, but sometimes she just gets praise (I actually say "Yep, sometimes you're just a good girl!" in a happy voice). And then every now and then she gets 2 or 3 treats instead of just one, especially if she obeys under difficult circumstances. So she knows I have the treats, but she knows she won't always get one. It's going to be a hard road getting her to where she's as reliable when I have no treats as when she knows I have some, but this is working well so far. And I do see incremental improvements when I don't have a treat with me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

lisasgirl that is a brilliant idea.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

lisasgirl said:


> Just an idea, but - if it's impossible to hide treats from Molly, try going the other way and ALWAYS have treats available. Just don't give them to her unless she earns them on her own. It'll probably take her a while to stop being obsessed with them, but if you go long enough carrying treats around without giving her any (unless she does something extraordinary to earn one), *maybe she'll get used to the idea that the presence of a treat doesn't always mean she's going to get one. And then it becomes less of a lure.*
> 
> I'm trying to fade out treats on a couple of things for Cleo (who is VERY food-motivated), and one thing I've started doing is having a handful of treats on me, but not giving her one every time. So sometimes she gets the treat, but sometimes she just gets praise (I actually say "Yep, sometimes you're just a good girl!" in a happy voice). And then every now and then she gets 2 or 3 treats instead of just one, especially if she obeys under difficult circumstances. So she knows I have the treats, but she knows she won't always get one. It's going to be a hard road getting her to where she's as reliable when I have no treats as when she knows I have some, but this is working well so far. And I do see incremental improvements when I don't have a treat with me.


I often have treats in my pockets, but never wind up giving them when we're on a walk, for instance. Almost every piece of clothing I have hanging on hooks in the laundry room that I'm going to wear on a walk already has kibble or treats in one pocket and poop bags in the other. lol. The trouble is that when it's sometimes but not all the time, it acts as a variable reinforcement schedule nonetheless. So they still seem, in my experience to think....well, maybe, just maybe. So depending on the dog's obsessiveness...it might make them chill out or not. But it sure could be tried.
My poodles love their treats as much as the next guy but they're not obsessed and don't give me any nonsense about that. They seem to get it that they don't always need treats for everything. But Jose` (rip) was the most obsessed dog over food I've ever seen. It didn't matter if I had food on me or not. He never gave up hope. lol. 

I try to do treats mostly when learning something new and then asap put it on a fixed, then variable schedule of reinforcement or sometimes we skip the fixed.


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