# Thoughts on Hearts Song?



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What questions do you have? Is there something that you're not sure about? 

You're smart to ask for opinions but remember that yours is the most important


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## naybaloog (May 19, 2020)

Just overall thoughts if they are a good breeder or if anyone has experience with them/ has puppies from them. I feel like they meet good standards.... but I just want to make sure. I'm nervous and want to make sure I'm making a good choice.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

naybaloog said:


> t's hard to search in the search bar because there are so many key words for heart and song.


Use the Advanced Search









That takes you here. Choose and enter your search terms. Enter a member name below if looking for post or thread from a specific member. Enter a Date Range if you want to narrow that Search.









Select specific or all forums as you think appropriate . I generally sort by Date to get the newest first rather than a Date Range, unless I'm searching specifically for something in years past.









You'll get to this page








Search results for query: heart+song







www.poodleforum.com





which has a couple of mentions in addition to your posts.
*__*

Your other post had some good comments on Heart Song once they came into the picture and you commented positively on the connection.

It's not surprising that you don't get many replies when asking about specific breeders when you start considering the math. This is partly why and is a very rough calculation:

PF is listed as having over 20,000 members. That's really misleading.
First, that number is since PF started in 2007. Many members join just to ask a question or a few and then stop participating, or they're here for the lifetime of their poodle and then stop participating.
Of the regularly participating members, which rotate as the membership ebbs and flows, at any given period of time, I'd generally guess around 200-250 members regularly participate.

I'm still searching for how many poodle breeders there are in the US, whether top of the line or bottom of the barrel.
The ASPCA estimates around 2000 federally licensed (larger scale, for profit style) breeders. There would easily be at least that number or more of breeders operating under that radar, and let's say half that number, around 1000 breeders who are or are trying to be what I think of as quality breeders.

This is all really just guesstimating but if you have around 250 active members and around 1000 quality breeders and both of those populations change thru time, it's not really odd that a breeder may not be mentioned by more than a few people more than a few times thru a few years.

*__*

As for evaluating them on what's online alone:

Do they offer "tiny _" or "teacup _" or "royal _" or "giant __"? (there is no poodle variety by those names - all marketing terms to be avoided)
Do they offer "moyen _" or "medium __"? Tread very carefully. There are a _very_ few breeders doing this properly.
Do they charge more for gender or size or color? (marketing again and to be avoided)
Do they cross breed?
Do they feature little on their site but cute puppies? What concrete, verifiable information do they offer?
Do they talk about their breeding program, why they're breeding poodles and their goals in breeding.
Do they allow or encourage visits to their home, wherever all their dogs live? (Covid is a legit out but check everything else!)
Do they list sires and dams? with registry names so they can be looked up? with mention of specific health testing and where done? With results listed? or preferably, linked to the site the results are published?
Do they offer "reasons" why they don't test for typical conditions or do they give test results or access to test results?
What is their health guarantee/warranty? Do they rule out coverage for testable conditions?
Do they insist or require early spay/neuter? If yes, they're not keeping up with current science. That's a caution.
Does the contract focus more on payment or poodles?
If you do an internet search do you find the name listed in dog show or other publications?
Do you find them selling thru puppyfind or puppyspot or kijiji or other commercial broker sites? Don't support that breeder. (AKC Marketplace excluded but when looking at a breeder there, use all these tools)

There's more things to look for but the showstoppers for me are usually found within the above. I don't see any showstoppers with Heart Song. I'd definitely look at them if I were looking for a standard.

Here's the link to the health testing listed on OFA. I searched for "Heart Song" as their registered names are listed, set parameters to Poodle. The listings for "Heart Song *___*" are almost definitely all theirs. Can't say for sure on the others. You'll see testing not only of their poodles but also previous generations. That's another excellent source of info.



https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?x=1&sort=-6&num=&registrar=&namecontains=N&part=heart+song&namecontains=N&breed%5B%5D=PO+&variety%5B%5D=&sex=&country=&birthday_start_month=&birthday_start_year=&birthday_end_month=&birthday_end_year=&birthday=&rptdte_start_month=&rptdte_start_year=&rptdte_end_month=&rptdte_end_year=&rptdte=&btnSearch=Begin+Search


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

I glanced through and saw no major red flags. Health testing including the OFA tests, potentially some UVc Davis diversity testing, UKC championship and some minor obedience/trick training, and they use puppy culture. If I was looking for a parti and in the southern US, I would definitely consider talking with them. They do seem to have several litters a year (showing 4 litters planned before the end of summer) so I would want to make sure you are comfortable with that and talk about who owns the parents/where they live. I personally would be curious to ask about the VGL results and COI of the particular litter.

Also - I like to ask myself 'would I be comfortable talking to this person if something went wrong with my puppy?" A yes answer to that is important to me.


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## naybaloog (May 19, 2020)

Thank you guys!! I'll definitely check in about coi, what's vgl?


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

VGL is the lab at UC Davis they mention doing genetic testing from. They have a project to track standard poodle diversity. 

In my opinion, doing VGL testing and potentially selecting for high diversity litters would be a very good sign. But it's not on a lot of people/breeders radar and certainly not requires. I would probably ask just because I find it interesting and think that an enthusiastic and knowledgeable response to questions about that would make me think favourably about their breeding practices. 






Genetic Diversity Testing for Standard Poodles


Overview The Veterinary Genetics Laboratory (VGL), in collaboration with Dr. Niels C. Pedersen and staff, has developed a panel of short tandem repeat (STR) markers that will determine genetic diversity across the genome and in the Dog Leukocyte Antigen (DLA) class I and II regions. This test...




vgl.ucdavis.edu


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Be aware, as you ask about COI, that genetics nerds think it is a bit of a blunt tool. At the very least, when you are starting with an inbred population (Mid century bottleneck, cough cough) no amount of crossing within that population is going to fix the loss of diversity. So, if you do happen to mention COI to the right kind of nerd, be prepared for a lengthy exposition on whatever else they are doing to address genetic issues. I'd suggest having a box of M&Ms and a tall Coke at hand.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cowpony is right in pointing out that there are questions amongst different scientific communities and other interested parties over methods and results.

A quick primer on the reasons diversity has become a factor in breeding: 

The Midcentury Bottleneck. This was actually several breeding bottlenecks.

The breed has suffered a major artificial genetic bottleneck associated with show-winning bloodlines that rose to dominance in the 1950s. The history of this event was first described by Dr. John Armstrong in his description of the famous sire Sir Gay [17]. Although Sir Gay was not particularly noteworthy in the show ring, his claim to fame came from the breeding of his son Annsown Gay Knight of Arhill to Wycliffe Jacqueline of the Wycliffe Kennel. The mating of Annsown Gay Knight to Wycliffe Jacqueline produced dogs of show-winning form and their progeny were exported around the world and heavily used in close linebreeding to establish type. As a result, almost all subsequent show-winning Standard Poodle stud dogs have had Sir Gay in their pedigree. However, Wycliffe lines were only part of the genetic bottleneck and kennels such as Carillon, Lowmont, Puttencove, and Bel Tor also rose to prominence during this time, creating an even broader Midcentury bottleneck (MCB) [18]. The genetic contribution of these lines to contemporary Standard Poodles is referred to as % Wycliffe and % MCB. A third, and minor bottleneck, occurred at about this same time when Old English Apricot (OEA) poodles were used to improve the quality of dogs with the apricot coat color. The greatest % OEA is found in apricot and red Standard Poodles.

"genetic diversity statistics, internal relatedness, principal coordinate analysis, and DLA haplotype frequencies showed a marked imbalance with 30 % of the diversity in 70 % of the dogs. Standard Poodles with SA and AD were strongly linked to this inbred population, with dogs suffering with SA being the most inbred 
* The effect of genetic bottlenecks and inbreeding on the incidence of two major autoimmune diseases in standard poodles, sebaceous adenitis and Addison's disease - PubMed  *
Ancestral genetic polymorphisms responsible for SA and AD entered Standard Poodles through separate lineages, AD earlier and SA later, and were increasingly fixed by a period of close linebreeding that was related to popular bloodlines from the mid-twentieth century. This event has become known...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov 

"Fast forward nearly 70 years later and there are no Standard Poodles left on earth without some ancestry attributable to the MCB. Most dogs owe at least 50% of their ancestry to the MCB, and many dogs, especially show lines, owe much more. Some unusual lines only have a small amount of influence from the MCB, but these tend to be quite obscure."
https://www.betterbred.com/2019/07/07/disappointed-with-your-diversity-results-dont-be/

(not actually a genetics nerd, just a researching nerd lol)


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## naybaloog (May 19, 2020)

Well I was pretty certain on this breeder but now I'm not too sure. When we had our talk she said that she was no longer going to breed her red line because they tend to be more on the shy side. I've been stalking her website and she has a red puppies planned later this year. We also discussed how she picks out the puppy for the person, but on her site she lists the colors available for her last liter with some not available and they were too young to be temperament tested. So all of this makes me nervous that she just wants to sell the puppies. But idk why she would lie about her red line.

Strange. Anyways the search continues I guess?

So idk what to think


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't remember what the site said prior but it's possible that the updates on the Available Puppies _page last updated 5-26-21_ refers only to some of that info. She may not be planning reds after all but just didn't amend that portion. She may have found a different sire or dam that she thinks will improve that aspect.

I'm not finding the portion about _on her site she lists the colors available for her last liter with some not available and they were too young to be temperament tested._

Either way, if you liked the breeder and felt that you had a reasonably good connection, I'd ask her, rather than assuming.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Maybe they brought in another line? Maybe the website needs to be corrected?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Definitely ask her. Looks like the website was just updated yesterday, but if you like her and her dogs, you should give her a chance to explain.


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