# Clostridium bacteria in stool- raw fed puppy



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I don't have an answer directly to your question, but I do think you should keep an open mind to raw, as you can buy in bulk and spend similar to what you'd spend feeding high quality kibble.

As far as C.diff, I think you'll find this interesting:

A study, used by Delta Society to support their ban of raw fed pets from their program, found the following results:

Stool samples collected every 2 months for a year, published in 2008.

Raw Fed Dogs (n = 40)
0 (0%) VRE
1 (2.5%) MRSA
5 (12.5%) C.Diff (Clostridium)
19 (47.5%) Salmonella
31 (77.5%) E.Coli

Kibble Fed Dogs (n=156)
1 (0.6%) VRE
8 (5.1%) MRSA
40 (25.6%) C.Diff (Clostridium)
12 (7.7%) Salmonella
32 (20.1%) E. Coli

Colistridium was actually higher in kibble fed dogs.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I understand that Raw can be expensive for some - more so in the beginning stages of it though. I find the more serious a person is the more they find ways to cut costs and order in bulk. But can understand your change over the costs. 

I have had my dogs stool checked just last week. No issues, thankfully.

From what I breifly read this bacteria seems related somewhat to guirdia. It is very serious for humans as you said but is common to have some small amounts of this bacteria in animals.

The treatments for this are NOT kibble, it is homecooked meals. 

SO I would go ahead and get the fecal test just to see if there is a change. 

One thing I also read was that this is found mostly in kibble. And that the small amount of this might not ever go away unless its treated and most vets do not recommend it unless the dog is suffering with loose stool and blood because of how common it is.


I think its a great topic but I see no information that its caused or contributed from a Raw fed dog rather the opposite.


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## Ruth (Nov 18, 2010)

I'm actually more concerned about contaminated kibble than raw food. I have actually heard of more dogs getting sick with contaminated kibble than raw!

At least I know I take every precaution I can, like freezing the food for at least one week before giving it to my dogs and I know exactly WHAT they're eating.

I just had way too many bad experiences with kibble, from moths and maggots in the bags to recall scares, and all I can say is kibble scares me a lot more than raw food.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The food I switched her to is The Blue Buffalo CO BLUE lamb for puppies. It is expensive kibble, but she loves it. I has no white rice, beets or corn and plenty of meat in it. 

I thought from what my vet said that the clostridium was more common in a raw fed puppy. I wonder if I misunderstood? 

No one has mentioned whether they would treat the C Diff in an unsymptomatic puppy to prevent it's (unlikely) transmission to a human. That is what I am wondering about doing. Would you?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I'm not sure if you misunderstood, outwest. It is very possible that your vet, although a wonderful, holistic vet, may simply have assumed that C. diff is higher in raw fed pets. This would be an easy assumption to make, especially if someone has not done research on the subject.

Even holistic vets (as fabulous as they are) can still be relatively uninformed on raw feeding. My holistic vet is fabulous, recommends raw feeding, gives fliers on raw diets to her patients, but she even admits I know raw feeding better than her...

I would *not* treat C.diff in a healthy puppy. It sounds like even healthy pets shed this, as well as E.Coli and Salmonella in their stool, based on the study that I provided data from. So, no, I would not treat your healthy pet for an illness that your puppy does not have. The presence of bacteria in stool does not = disease or bacterial infection. 

So, I would prevent bacterial exposure to humans the exact same way you prevent exposure to all bacteria. Your dog's poop has lots more bacteria than just C.diff. Wash your hands, scoop your yard frequently and avoid direct contact with poop. Don't let kids roll and play or run around in a poopy yard.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, that is the way I am leaning, too. He tested for all those nasty buggers and she was only positive for the one bacteria. She did not have salmonella, for example, and 47% of raw fed dogs have that compared to 7% of kibble fed. 

It is just that C.Diff, if contracted by a human with a depressed immune system (the elderly or very young) can be deadly or at the least require hospitalization for treatment. Most people would not even be thinking of this. It is just that I am an RN and see what it can do. 

I think I will have her stool retested at her next vet visit. If it is negative I don't need to worry about it. If it is still positive, I will have to make the decision whether to treat it or not. My 76 year old mother lives with me. She cleans up the dog poop about half the time.


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## Trixie (Apr 13, 2011)

outwest said:


> The food I switched her to is The Blue Buffalo CO BLUE lamb for puppies. It is expensive kibble, but she loves it. I has no white rice, beets or corn and plenty of meat in it.
> 
> I thought from what my vet said that the clostridium was more common in a raw fed puppy. I wonder if I misunderstood?
> 
> No one has mentioned whether they would treat the C Diff in an unsymptomatic puppy to prevent it's (unlikely) transmission to a human. That is what I am wondering about doing. Would you?


I would probably consider treating it if your puppy comes in regular contact with the elderly or children. My Grandma had C. Diff and it was awful--I'm sure you already know how miserable it can make a person since you're a nurse! I suppose another thing to consider is that it could end up in your house if the puppy isn't 100% potty trained which could be difficult if it gets on harder to clean surfaces (fabric couches etc) Although if you do treat it, it could just keep coming back too, who knows.


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## Trixie (Apr 13, 2011)

outwest said:


> Yes, that is the way I am leaning, too. He tested for all those nasty buggers and she was only positive for the one bacteria. She did not have salmonella, for example, and 47% of raw fed dogs have that compared to 7% of kibble fed.
> 
> It is just that C.Diff, if contracted by a human with a depressed immune system (the elderly or very young) can be deadly or at the least require hospitalization for treatment. Most people would not even be thinking of this. It is just that I am an RN and see what it can do.
> 
> I think I will have her stool retested at her next vet visit. If it is negative I don't need to worry about it. If it is still positive, I will have to make the decision whether to treat it or not. My 76 year old mother lives with me. She cleans up the dog poop about half the time.



Sorry, I posted mine before reading this


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Yes, after thinking about it I believe I will have it treated, but first I will make sure it is Clostridium Difficile and not one of the less toxic to humans Clostridiums. At the time the vet told me he just said Clostridium and I immediately thought Clostridium Difficile since that is the one I am familiar with and see in the hospital. After on line research this afternoon, it turns out there are a number of Clostridium strains in dogs, some of which are not bothersome to humans. 

I will let you know which she has after I have her retested in a couple of weeks (if I can find this post again at that time).


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

*I would treat it...*

It's curious how your pup got c.diff. I am a nurse practitioner...and only treat humans lol but, my first thought was has your puppy been on antibiotics? Second thought was (when you said you are an RN) was I wonder if you brought it home from the hospital? As careful as we are, c. Diff is very virulent. If you wear your shoes home from work you could take it home...puppy licks your shoes, licks the carpet where you walked with work shoes on...I'd check the pup again and treat if he has it. I'd also recommend not wearing shoes from work outside of work. Good luck! My grandson was just diagnosed with c.diff. He is 1 yr old. He had been on abs for strept throat but it made me think about my practices. I work in a clinic in regular street clothes and shoes..but I make rounds in the hospital daily..i wear a variety of shoes to work. Sigh... We have thought about (as providers) wearing shoe covers into hospital rooms...the hospital floor is undoubtably the most germie place on earth! Even though people clean it all day long.
Good luck to you. Let us know what you decide.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Since I took her to the vet the day after I brought her home, I don't think I gave it to her. I don't even know for sure it is Clostridium Difficile or another strain of Clostridium. I found a lot of info on line about it. SInce 25% of all dogs test positive for it I am not too worried. Most dogs are not tested for it apparently:

"Clostridium is a large genus containing gram-positive bacteria, some of them capable of causing diarrhoea in dogs. The two most frequent culprits are Clostridium difficile and Clostridium perfrigens. All Clostridium bacteria are anaerobic (they thrive where there is no oxygen) and capable of producing endospores. 

Clostridium transmission
Clostridium bacteria are hard to clean away, because they produce endospores. The endospore is a dormant structure that allows the bacteria to survive even when subjected to really harsh conditions. Clostridium bacteria in the endospore form are resistant to adverse temperatures, starvation, ultraviolet and gamma radiation, and a lot of chemical disinfectants. The Clostridium bacterium is however prevented from reproducing while in this dormant state. When a dog ingests Clostridium bacteria, the bacteria can pass through the stomach since they are resilient to acid. Once they reach the colon, they will wake from the dormant state and start multiplying, thereby causing disease. 

Clostridium difficile in dogs 
Clostridium difficile will normally not cause problems, but antibiotic treatment can make it possible for this bacterium to overgrow other bacteria in the gut of the dog and cause pseudomembranous colitis. Pseudomembranous colitis is a serious infection of the colon. If a dog develops pseudomembranous colitis, treatment with other antibiotics must be stopped and the veterinarian must start giving the dog antibiotics capable of attacking Clostridium difficile, e.g. metronidazole, vancomvcin, fusidic acid, or bacitracin. Clostridium difficile is resistant to most antibiotics and it can therefore thrive when common antibiotics are used to treat other dog diseases. 

Clostridium perfrigens in dogs 
Clostridium perfrigens is capable of causing a wide range of symptoms in dogs, from mild food poising till severe gangrene. Clostridium perfrigens is a part of the normal flora and it is often found in sick dogs without being the cause of the illness.

Certain strains of Clostridium perfrigens produce toxins which can cause food poisoning in dogs. Clostridium perfrigens can for instance be transmitted to the dog if it eats poorly cooked meat or poultry. In the United States and the United Kingdom, Clostridium perfrigens is actually the third most common reason behind food-borne illness in humans. 

If a dog eats contaminated food, the incubation time is normally 8-16 hours and the most commonly occurring symptoms are diarrhoea and stomach cramps. Vomiting and fever can occur, but it is not common. In otherwise healthy dogs, the symptoms will usually vanish within 24 hours without causing any long-lasting harm to the dog. It is however possible for this dog disease to develop into clostridial necrotizing enteritis, which can prove fatal for the dog. This risk is especially high if the dog has been infected with “Type C” strains of the bacterium, since this strain produces an especially strong and damaging toxin.

Studies on humans show that antibodies to Clostridium perfrigens toxin is very common, and many experts suggests that a majority of the population has suffered from Clostridium perfrigens food poisoning at some point; in most cases without seeking medic.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

Oh I didn't read carefully enough...didn't realize you just got her. It just reminded me of when my daughter was a little one and how careful I was about bring stuff home on my shoes  I have gotten lax since I have no kids at home but now with grandchildren at home I'm going back to my old ways ! I don't know how it is for dogs...but I'd probably treat anyway, since it's easy to treat. But following the advise of a trusted vet is always best in my book.


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