# What Testing for Standard Poodles?



## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find it...which tests are the biggies that I need to make sure the parents of my future Spoo puppy have had? I want to make sure I don't overlook any potential health problems. 

Also, is a "fair" rating on the hips ok for a pet, or could that cause problems when they are older? I read somewhere that "fair" is considered "normal" for poodles...is that true?


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

fair on hips is not the best...but is considered okay if they are bred to a bitch or dog that 
had good or excellent hips.

Von Willebrands (either dna or through parentage)
Eyes normal (canine eye registry)
Heart normal (echocardiogram) clear of Atrial Septal Defect (hole in heart)
Lots of controversy among vets and breeders about the validity of thyroid and sebaceous adenitis. Thyroid may mean the bitch and dog are clear at the time of testing but are no indication that any offspring may be clear....same with Sebaceous Adenitis.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

We also do von Willebrand, neonatal encephalopathy and degenerative myelopathy. These are DNA tests so are entirely valid.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Mikey'sMom said:


> I'm sure this has been discussed, but I couldn't find it...which tests are the biggies that I need to make sure the parents of my future Spoo puppy have had? I want to make sure I don't overlook any potential health problems.


From the Versatility In Poodles website - (a non-profit organization devoted to poodles) the health tests *recommended* for a *standard poodle* are:
Addisons by blood for electrolytes ratio - yearly
Cardiac Evaluation by Doppler Echocardiograph
Degenerative Myelopathy (DM), by DNA test
Elbow Dysplasia by x-ray after 24 months-usually done same time as hips
Eyes by CERF exam - every year
Hip Dysplasia by x-ray after 24 months of age
Neonatal Encephalopathy by DNA test
Sebaceous Adenitis by Biopsy - after 24 months and within one year of breeding
Thyroid Malfunction by blood test yearly until age 4 then everyother year
VonWillebrands Disease (vWd), by DNA


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Mikey'sMom said:


> Also, is a "fair" rating on the hips ok for a pet, or could that cause problems when they are older? I read somewhere that "fair" is considered "normal" for poodles...is that true?


A fair rating on the hips are just fine. Some people think the excellent rating is better than the fair rating but the truth according to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals is fair is normal. This website goes further to state: _Do not *ignore* the dog with a *fair hip* evaluation. The dog is still *within normal limits*. For example; a dog with fair hips but with a *strong hip background* and over 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a good breeding prospect. A dog with excellent hips, but with a weak family background and less than 75% of its brothers and sisters being normal is a poor breeding prospect. _


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

*von Willebrand's*

Can someone explain von Willebrand's test results to me? If one of the parents is a carrier, should I not look at those litters, or is vWd recessive? I assume a carrier can pass on the gene, but doesn't actually have the disease...is that correct? And if they pass it on, will the offspring just be a carrier too, or might they actually have the disease?


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

Same question for DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY, actually. One of the litters I am looking at has one parent who is a carrier.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Mikey'sMom said:


> Can someone explain von Willebrand's test results to me? If one of the parents is a carrier, should I not look at those litters, or is vWd recessive? I assume a carrier can pass on the gene, but doesn't actually have the disease...is that correct? And if they pass it on, will the offspring just be a carrier too, or might they actually have the disease?


From the VetGen website VonWillebrands disease: *Carrier*

This finding indicates that *one copy* of the disease gene is present in your dog, but that it will* not exhibit disease symptoms*. Carriers will not have medical problems as a result. Dogs with Carrier status can be enjoyed without the fear of developing medical problems but will pass on the disease gene 50% of the time. 

So along as only *one parent is a carrier* and the *other parent is clear* the puppies will not have any problems with the disease.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Mikey'sMom said:


> Same question for DEGENERATIVE MYELOPATHY, actually. One of the litters I am looking at has one parent who is a carrier.


This DNA test is not quite as *clear cut* as the DNA test for vWd but if the other parent is clear the dog *will not* develop degenerative myelopathy.

From Degenerative Myelopathy breakthrough announcement *having two mutated genes does not necessarily result in disease*.

From Orthopedic Foundation for Animals who provides the DNA test for Degenerative Myelopathy:
*Carrier* 
This dog is heterozygous A/N, with *one mutated copy* of the gene and *one normal copy* of the gene, and is classified as a carrier. In the breeds studied at the University of Missouri in depth so far, dogs with test results of A/N have never been confirmed to have DM. While it is *highly unlikely this dog will ever develop DM*, this dog can transmit either the normal gene or the mutated gene to its offspring. 

The Orthopedic Foundation goes on to further say: not all dogs testing as A/A, (_having two copies of the mutated gene_) have shown clinical signs of DM. DM is typically a late onset disease, and dogs testing as A/A that are clinically normal may still begin to show signs of the disease as they age. Some dogs testing A/A did not begin to show clinical signs of DM until they were 15 years of age. Research is ongoing to estimate what percentage of dogs testing as A/A will develop DM within their lifespan. At this point, the mutation can only be interpreted as *being at risk* of developing DM within the animal’s life. P.S. the italics are mine just to clarify.

If I was buying a puppy I would *congratulate* the breeder who *tests and tells* and I would have *no qualms* about buying a puppy from such a breeder. The likelyhood of a puppy developing this disease is practically non-existant whereas buying from a breeder *who does not test* for this disease leaves you with a *50-50 chance* of having an *affected* poodle.


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks everyone, for the responses!

I asked my vet about von Willebrand's and Degenerative Myelopathy today, and he said that even if only one parent is a carrier, the offspring can still get the disease. Has anyone else ever heard of this? I thought it was ok as long as only one parent is a carrier, but he said no. 

Now I am really confused! And sad, because I had my eye on a litter with a parent that was a carrier! Then again, I also just found out the other parent wasn't tested, so I guess I wouldn't be looking at that litter regardless. sigh...


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Time for a new vet?

There is an amazing number of vets who really are not up to date with diseases, modes of inheritance.. etc.

Three years ago I had the opportunity to talk to vets who were in the same graduating class at Washington State University. They had been practicing for a couple of years, in seperate practices. I asked each of them if they were currently treating any standard poodles for sebaceous adenitis as DNA samples were needed for a study. Not only did I get blank looks from each of them, one went on to correct me and tell me that I must be talking about dogs with sebaceous cysts. Turns out, neither one was even aware of the disease. I was amazed.

When my Vic (now 13!!!!!) was a few week old pup, I had yet to see the copies of the parents vWD results. Worried, I asked my vet about vWD. He told me not to worry, never heard of it in poodles, simply wasn't an issue. Two weeks later, when I took Vic in for her next vaccination (yup, I did it.. every two weeks, now I know better).. the vet confided in me, in a hopeless voice, of an adult standard he had neutered a few days before. The boy kept bleeding, bleeding and bleeding.. had been transfused multiple times, unable to stop the bleeding. The vet was getting ready to euth him.. as they had done everything possible. Yes, the boy had vWD, lack of parental testing and a routine neuter were about to cost him his life. I finally had my Vic tested... she is a carrier for vWD. 

There is also a blood test for vWD factor.. the results of that test are variable and not conclusive. It is an old test and all that people had to rely on prior to the genetic DNA test. I wonder.. if maybe your vet is not aware that there is a DNA test for vWD, but aware of the older test....


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

Yeah, now I'd be really interested to see what kind of answer I get if I ask a different vet! 

In any event, since the other parent wasn't tested (even though the breeder knew this dog was a carrier), I don't think I'm comfortable with this particular breeder/litter anyway...but still good to know for the future in case i run into this again (although hopefully next time BOTH parents are tested!).

Thanks!


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

*NE and Hips*

How important is NEwS testing? I had heard that puppies born with this usually die in their first few weeks. So if puppies seem fine at 8-9 weeks, are they “in the clear” in terms of being affected? Or can this come up later? I’m looking at a litter where one parent is a carrier, but the other one wasn’t tested (not sure why)...and also some litters where neither parent was tested. 

Also, how accurate are the OFA Hip “Prelim” results? If a dog has a prelim result of “excellent” or “good” would you be confident in that, or can that change drastically?


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## stealthq (Aug 4, 2011)

I can help with the OFA prelims. From the scuttlebutt I've seen on the German Shepherd forums, they are not terribly reliable. There are breeders/working dog owners who've seen dogs originally graded fair and better get downgraded to dysplastic, and dogs originally graded dysplastic get upgraded to fair, one apparently even to good though this seems to be more unusual. Generally, those folks only recommend prelims if you think something is wrong with the dog and want to confirm, or if you're raising a working dog and use a poor result as a 'washout' criterion. They would NEVER advocate using prelims to judge breeding stock.


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Mikey'sMom said:


> How important is NEwS testing? I had heard that puppies born with this usually die in their first few weeks. So if puppies seem fine at 8-9 weeks, are they “in the clear” in terms of being affected? Or can this come up later? I’m looking at a litter where one parent is a carrier, but the other one wasn’t tested (not sure why)...and also some litters where neither parent was tested.


From what I'm aware, all affected (homozygous) dogs die as young puppies, therefore it's not strictly something to worry about as a potential buyer as any affected dogs won't survive long enough for you to end up inadvertently taking one home. As a breeder, you're being kind of silly financially as well as ethically if you don't test at least one of the parents. Not only will you likely end up watching puppies die if they turn out to both be carriers, but you lose the money you would have made from them. 

With all recessive genetic diseases, testing one parent as clear (non-carrier) is sufficient to guarantee unaffected puppies. You don't need to test the other dog as well, but any puppies taken on for breeding programmes should also be tested if their mates aren't. It's also fine to mate two dogs if one is a known carrier so long as the other has been tested clear.


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## Ms Stella (Aug 16, 2010)

I am a nurse practitioner in a hematology practice. I take care of people who have vWB. There are 3 possibilities..either clear, affected, or carrier. No way can you have a vWD (affected) without having an affected parent or two carriers...I copied the following info for you..rather than typing it out. My doberman was a carrier for vWD and it never worried me a bit. 


Von Willebrand Disease Testing in Whippets 
copyright 2003, Adele C. Monroe, DVM, MSPH

(published in The Whippet Watch, volume 4, issue 6, 2003)


"Two clear parents will produce only clear offspring. If a clear dog is bred to a vWD carrier, each pup has a 50% chance of being clear and a 50% chance of carrying one defective gene—none of the pups will be affected. See Clear to Carrier chart. If two carriers are bred together (not recommended as a general practice), each pup has a 25% chance of being clear (two normal genes), a 50% chance carrying one defective gene and one normal gene, and a 25% chance of being affected (two defective genes). "


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## DivinityPoodles (Jan 23, 2012)

When should the testing start for a dog being considered for breeding?

I knew about the prelim hips/elbows being kind of useless prior to 2 years unless a problem was suspected but according to the chart, do you start testing for everything else at 1? Or earlier or ???


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

you can DNA test at any age Luvmyspoos, some people wait to have the hips done at 2 to do all of the other testing but others choose to do it prior to that so as not to have the whole bill at one time ;D


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

You can do a DNA test as soon as you like, although with the mouth swab tests you need to wait until a puppy is old enough to be isolated from its mother and littermates for a short time before you take the swab to avoid cross-contamination. However, because the hip and eye tests have a minimum age and the results of these tests if they are not good enough are likely to be dealbreakers for breeding, some people may choose to wait to do these tests first and make sure they are OK, _then _get the genetics tests if the dog's hip and eye results are acceptable (and spend the money on a spay/neuter if not).


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Zyrcona is absolutely right. No point whatsoever is spending the money on the other tests until you know they are worthwhile, so hips and eyes should always come first.


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

If dog 'A' has an OFA hip prelim result of excellent, and its parents had OFA hip results of excellent and good...is it still risky to get a puppy from dog 'A's' litter, since it is just a prelim result? Or do its parents having favorable hip ratings mean it is likely this dog (and its puppies) are ok?


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## tintlet (Nov 24, 2009)

You have a much better chance of good hips from a strong line of goods/excellent.

but can still find the occasional ones that don't pass. OFA is judging the conformation of the hips. Its a combination of many things, such as judging conformation of a dog.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

Mikey'sMom said:


> If dog 'A' has an OFA hip prelim result of excellent, and its parents had OFA hip results of excellent and good...is it still risky to get a puppy from dog 'A's' litter, since it is just a prelim result? Or do its parents having favorable hip ratings mean it is likely this dog (and its puppies) are ok?


What would be the reason the breeders did not get permanent hip results?


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## Mikey'sMom (Feb 21, 2012)

I think the dog (sire) wasn't much over 2 years old and she just hadn't gotten to it yet. Not sure. It seems to come from a pretty long line of excellents and goods, though.


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