# Hip xray on a puppy :)



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

That's fascinating for us, and a huge relief for you, I'm sure! Thank you for posting this!


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Excellent advice for all of us - and I'm so glad your anxieties are relieved and you know what to do to avoid future problems.


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## Paragon (Feb 18, 2012)

Outwest,

Those hips look good! Nice and round with a nice v, well put into the socket. 
Don't worry he will eventually round out! I have a big boy going home this week. The feet are huge, and he should top out at 28" . The vet advice is very good. I always tell people moderate exercise for pups to 1 1/2 years. No runnung, jogging, eventing until growth plates settle down.

You worry too much my dear.... Is your vet on speed dial like mine? 

Paragon


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

You are a girl after my own heart Outwest. I also do the rather safe than sorry route too. At least your caution seems prudient as I can go over the top. I refer of course when I brough Swizzle in because he reverse sneezed. I am glad to see the inside of Jazz looks as good as his outsides. Your vet has given great advice. I am glad this x ray has relieved your worry.


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## Aroseshook (Aug 12, 2012)

Thanks for the info on bigger pups. My Peeky is 21 inches at just under five months. I'm not sure what normal do I don't know if she's big. Great info!!! Thanks so much.


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

It is my understanding that one of the biggest risks for a dog for hip dysplasia aside from breed and bad lines is growing too fast. Slowing growth is really important for healthy hips. Those hips do look good from what I can tell.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Glad some of you got something out of it. 

Paragon, I am not a worry wort really. I only take the dogs to the vet if necessary. I was planning on checking his hips at 6 months anyway because I don't want to bother with the whole AKC showing thing if his hips aren't good. Plus, the kid is still clumsy and exhuberant and has hurt himself a few times, although he is getting better. Instead of wondering for two-three more months the vet said they can tell all they need to know after 4 months old, so what the heck. I never thought about it with Bonnie as she was never a klutz. Also, I had a standard with bad hips. I figured if I knew early I could adjust diet and things and maybe make a difference.  Jazz dam has OFA excellent and sire has good, but still there is a possibility. I am glad I did it now and got some good advice, too. On with the hair! LOL

By the way, I asked this vet about large breed food. He said no. He said that food is best for large boned, heavy breeds like mastiffs, Saint bernards, Rottweilersk great danes and the like. For a standard poodle that is a lighter weight for height, the regular adult is the best. I know others may disagree, but I'll follow his advice.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Aroseshook said:


> Thanks for the info on bigger pups. My Peeky is 21 inches at just under five months. I'm not sure what normal do I don't know if she's big. Great info!!! Thanks so much.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


She's a big girl.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

(duplicate)


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## Ruscha_Baby (May 22, 2011)

Sounds like a decent vet. Not so sure mine would be quite so bright!

This all seems to make perfect sense to me. The dog, as a domesticated wolf, is not designed to eat as much as we think. Young wolves play with each other but tend to stay near the den for a very long time, so long walks just wouldn't be part of that.

I do tend to wonder if many of the hip and growth problems experienced might not be abated by simply feeding less food. It always seems that the hip problem dogs I meet are massive.

What a fantastic x- ray photo! Many thanks.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

Im probably going to be hated on this board now...but needed to speak whats on the mind!

First, sedation and analgesia is the KEY to good hip radiographs! Why someone would actually WANT to do this with no analgesia is beyond me. This is not a comfortable procedure, and while some dogs are quite stoic, its unnecessary. Working under a boarded radiologist has taught me so much as far as ideal hip radiographs go, and how to assess for hip dysplasia. I can tell those radiographs were not done with sedation as the source to object distance is small compared to a large s/o distance we can achieve with sedation. Regardless, those are certainly radiographs of diagnostic quality, I have seen a LOT worse 

Sedation vs. Awake plays absolutley no role in how "tight" your hips are on film. We are looking at bone, not soft tissue here and this is something the dog has no control on. This is a common misconception that owners have.

To get a proper assessment for HD,sedation is required for a hip palpation. A boarded surgeon should do this. Then, preferably PennHIP over OFA (but OFA is easier to pass so many breeders choose this), will give you an idea on how likely the development of HD is. PennHIP requires sedation as we are measuring for laxity, where OFA does not. If its for your own concern (not breeding purposes), an evaluation by a boarded radiologist is a good method of getting an accurate assessment. 

Those hip radiographs (although not ideally centered, your crossmark should be through the acetabulum for the clearest view, as xray beams at the cross are straight, and everywhere else cone out), are well positioned and straight...and can give the average owner a good idea on congruency and morgan lines. Bilaterally the acetabulum and femoral head look similar which is good. For the age of the dog, I dont particularly see abnormally open growth plated, seems to be pretty average for what I see (and I do probably 15 hip assessments per week). Looks like you have a pretty sturdy dog there!!

If you want to breed, or know his hip rating I really would recommend PennHIP over OFA. Any joe blow off the street can do radiographs for OFA, however with PennHIP only certified individuals who pass a certain number of test radiographs are allowed to submit. However, OFA is cheaper and often is enough to impress buyers


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Samba said:


> Im probably going to be hated on this board now...but needed to speak whats on the mind!
> 
> First, sedation and analgesia is the KEY to good hip radiographs! Why someone would actually WANT to do this with no analgesia is beyond me. This is not a comfortable procedure, and while some dogs are quite stoic, its unnecessary. Working under a boarded radiologist has taught me so much as far as ideal hip radiographs go, and how to assess for hip dysplasia. I can tell those radiographs were not done with sedation as the source to object distance is small compared to a large s/o distance we can achieve with sedation. Regardless, those are certainly radiographs of diagnostic quality, I have seen a LOT worse
> 
> ...


My goodness, I do not know what your credentials are but based on your statement "Working under a boarded radiologist has taught me so much" you must be in the veterinary field. 

Why would you immediately think, sedate the animal for an x-ray, if it is not necessary. Putting an animal under sedation for an x-ray is a risk to the animal’s health unless you are preparing the animal for surgery at the time. If you can do a procedure without stressing or hurting the animal it would be preferable not to sedate. 

My husband is a Radiology Technician, and went to 2 years of schooling to shoot x-rays on people and has done so for over 15 years and has not had to resort to sedation to perform an x-ray. He has dealt with a lot more infirm or difficult patients than you can imagine and he has always gotten an x-ray the radiologist can read. He does emergency room x-rays as well and there the patients ARE under sedation when they are sending a prob to the heart, lungs, etc.

Your statement "I can tell those radiographs were not done with sedation as the source to object distance is small compared to a large s/o distance we can achieve with sedation." is irrelevant. You go on to say "Regardless, those are certainly radiographs of diagnostic quality, I have seen a LOT worse" that is the point isn't it. The film is readable and that is all that really matters isn't it.

By the way "Any joe blow off the street" can not and I stress CAN NOT do X-rays. For one thing what does "joe blow" know about getting the right technique? Will he even know how to turn on the machine? Even a medical doctor does not know how to shoot an x-ray, just ask your own physician.

Anyway, opinions are like noses, everybody has one and they seem to end up in everybody's business. Mine nose is no different.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

Here is my response, and justification. I completely understand others have their own views and respect that.


_My goodness, I do not know what your credentials are but based on your statement "Working under a boarded radiologist has taught me so much" you must be in the veterinary field. _

Yes  

_Why would you immediately think, sedate the animal for an x-ray, if it is not necessary. Putting an animal under sedation for an x-ray is a risk to the animal’s health unless you are preparing the animal for surgery at the time. If you can do a procedure without stressing or hurting the animal it would be preferable not to sedate. _

Because due to the high volume of radiographs I take here, it is not safe to be in the xray room restraining pets. We use sandbags and tape as restraint. For basic radiographs, such as chest and abdomen we often do those on awake patients with a soothing voice telling them to stay. It is really not safe for anyone to be in the xray room. Often, animals will struggle without sedation and cause more harm to themselves. Sedation generally means less anxiety for the average patient (however, yes, yours may be different).

For hip radiographs, we need to pull on the legs, roate the stifles inwards (and trust me,the well endowed stud dogs do not enjoy this!) and sometimes make minor tweaks within millimeters to get that perfect shot. An awake dog does feel stress, a sedated (NOT GENERAL ANESTHETIC) dog, frequently does not. The sedatives of choice are narcotics like hydromorphone, butorphanol sometimes mixed with a low dose of acepromazine for more hyper animals. These are not the same as general anesthetics which may be considered "more risky" by some.

By "sedating" them, they are still able to be aroused, walk, bark etc. It is a tool to slow their response time, and create some euphoria for them so their experience is a good one.


_My husband is a Radiology Technician, and went to 2 years of schooling to shoot x-rays on people and has done so for over 15 years and has not had to resort to sedation to perform an x-ray. He has dealt with a lot more infirm or difficult patients than you can imagine and he has always gotten an x-ray the radiologist can read. He does emergency room x-rays as well and there the patients ARE under sedation when they are sending a prob to the heart, lungs, etc._

I am also a radiology technician, and work specifically with animals. Well yes, you can tell a person to not move. Not always easy to tell a dog that.

Please ask your husband if he stands within a foot of the primary beam (to restrain an animal you would have to), and he can hopefully explain to you why this is not safe.


_Your statement "I can tell those radiographs were not done with sedation as the source to object distance is small compared to a large s/o distance we can achieve with sedation." is irrelevant. You go on to say "Regardless, those are certainly radiographs of diagnostic quality, I have seen a LOT worse" that is the point isn't it. The film is readable and that is all that really matters isn't it._

Haha, on no no no. A large source to object distance is not irrelevent, you want the hip as close to the plate as possible to have the crisp, clear image. Its like comparing a 400 pixel picture to 850 pixel. If you know the physics behind xrays, they come out as a "beam". Anything off the "center" is distorted to some degree. While yes, its "good enough", its always best practice to center at the area of interest to ensure you have the clearest image possible. I was taught to do things properly, or not at all. 

_By the way "Any joe blow off the street" can not and I stress CAN NOT do X-rays. For one thing what does "joe blow" know about getting the right technique? Will he even know how to turn on the machine? Even a medical doctor does not know how to shoot an x-ray, just ask your own physician._

The sad thing is that its true. A teenager who walks off the street and applies to a vet clinic as an assistant, can be trained in hospital how to take radiographs. They do not need schooling, they do not need a DVM. The OP obviously had a great vet (or tech) who positioned her pup very well. While it is not super crisp, the image is still of good quality and would be accepted through OFA. However, there is no regulation on WHO actually takes the radiographs - meaning that at a practice that isnt so good (like the OP's), a co-op highschool student could take the radiographs.

For PennHIP, only certified individuals are allowed to take these radiographs. They must attend a course, and are given member numbers and a distractor number which must be present on each radiograph submission.

_Anyway, opinions are like noses, everybody has one and they seem to end up in everybody's business. Mine nose is no different._

Absolutley, and I respect that. Just wanted to justify my response so it would hopefully give some more information to those who were interested in persuing hip radiographs on their own dogs.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

oops double post


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Samba, the xray I posted isn't very 'crisp' because I took it with my cell phone with no flash while it hung on the vet light box. LOL. The vet told me to do that when I asked for a copy. I then emailed it to myself, downloaded it, uploaded it to photobucket and posted it here. In real life, the xray was very sharp. My cell phone made it blurry. 

I agree with you that a Penn Hip is preferrable for a breeding animal, but I am in the vast minority on that subject on the forum. I usually am the lone voice when the subject comes up. The pennhip measures, as you say, laxity. 

In the case of Jazz, I might be showing him. He runs, jumps, rips around the corners doing zoomies and tweeks his long legs with some regularity as a 4 month old puppy. My other standard was not the clumsy oaf he has been, but he is all legs at the moment. Instead of going through the whole riggamarole of growing hair, rubberbands and all that goes along with poodle showing, it seemed easier to just xray his hips. Many/most people do it at 6 months before they decide to show so they don't waste money and time on a dog that should never be bred. I am inexperienced with goofy long legged boys, so it was more than worth the $85.00 and the drive to the show vet to do it. He does tons of these xrays and knows how to read them - without sedation. People drive from all over southern california for this guys hip xrays. 

BUT, if in the future Jazz is a dog that would be bred then I would certainly do a Penn Hip because I agree it is better than the OFA hip. Most people on this board do not do Penn Hip and have lots of reasons why not. PennHip costs a hell of a lot more than $85.00, usually several hundred dollars. This hip xray was quick, easy and told me what I needed to know at this moment - that his hips were fine. In fact, the vet said his hips were excellent for a young puppy. That made my day. I have been smiling and happy about Jazz hips since then (small pleasures - LOL). If there had been a problem, he is young enough that something may have been able to be done to mitigate things. 

I am not recommending everyone run out and xray their poodles hips. I did it for the reasons I stated, I have access to a great vet with lower costs and took advantage of the opportunity. I didn't bother submitting the xray to OFA for a preliminary since I trust this vets opinion, but I could have.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

outwest said:


> Samba, I agree with you that a Penn Hip is preferrable for a breeding animal, but I am in the vast minority on that subject on the forum. I usually am the lone voice when the subject comes up. The pennhip measures, as you say, laxity.
> 
> In the case of Jazz, I might be showing him. He runs, jumps, rips around the corners doing zoomies and tweeks his long legs with some regularity as a 4 month old puppy. My other standard was not the clumsy oaf he has been, but he is all legs at the moment. Instead of going through the whole riggamarole of growing hair, rubberbands and all that goes along with poodle showing, it seemed easier to just xray his hips. Many/most people do it at 6 months before they decide to show so they don't waste money and time on a dog that should never be bred. I am inexperienced with goofy long legged boys, so it was more than worth the $85.00 and the drive to the show vet to do it. He does tons of these xrays and knows how to read them - without sedation.
> 
> ...


Haha, yes I see that now that its a photograph and not a scan. Film is still far superior to digital (in my perspective!) Nice to see that some vets still have it.

I would agree with your vet that the hips are good. Although Im no boarded radiologist, I could probably say that you wouldnt be wasting your money on a PennHip- I think you will get some excellent results. The coverage in this view looks lovely, and its not common for hips with such good coverage to be lax. 

The nice thing about PennHip's is that you can do it at far younger than OFA. I just did a few Viszlas the other day, one at 5 months the other at 2 years. The female (at 2 years) had a high distraction index. The breeder had already spent quite a bit of money on showing her. Her hips werent horrible, but were in the 50th percentile. Her pup, at 5 months radiographed great with hips in the 90th percentile!!

We also had a spoo breeder have her dogs done, the one at 9 months had horrible hips, so she neutered him. As much of a disappointment as that was, at least she didnt invest a lot of money into showing him.

Yes, its expensive though. For a boarded surgeon to palpate the hips, physical exam, sedation, the three view xrays and certification - its close to $500. Definitely something only to persue if you are a serious breeder. 

Nice to see good hips on a big dog though. I wouldnt worry much about the growth plates either, its not freakishly abnormal and your dog is probably just clumsy (and cute).


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## Marcie (Aug 2, 2011)

Samba said:


> Here is my response, and justification. I completely understand others have their own views and respect that.
> 
> 
> _My goodness, I do not know what your credentials are but based on your statement "Working under a boarded radiologist has taught me so much" you must be in the veterinary field. _
> ...


I was going respond point by point, but I'm not going to. 

You seem to be a very conciencious person that really cares about your job and your patients. I can respect your dedication to your job and you seem to take it seriously.

I am not in the business of radiology so, you, of course, would know more than me, my husband, no, me yes. 

Has the Veternary world gone digital yet?


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

Yes,many clinics are digital now. The downside to digital is that the amount of radiation is far higher than good old film. Some of the older or smaller clinics will still have film. 

With film, if I was in the xray room by radiation badge would read "X". Now with digital, my radiation badge reads 2X. 

Great for clients and vets due to the ease of transmitting information across the world...but I still like film 

Sad thing is I get less radiation while doing CT Scans and Fluoroscopy than with being in the digital xray suite! As I am still in the child bearing age range, I want to make sure my radiation exposure stays as low as possible.

I care about my job because sadly a lot of employers do not think radiation safety is important. Radiation is a proven carcinogen. After losing someone close to me from cancer (she was a human radiologist), I really want to ensure my health, and the health of the patient is put above the needs of anything else. I dont try to be difficult, or snotty, but patient comfort is very important to me. And for me to have them properly positioned, so I can be out of the room, and the need to not repeat any radiographs is essentail. With working under a boarded radiologist, she demands perfect radiographs. It takes a LOT of patience, and sometimes some dogs feel like they will be the death of me...sometimes I wish I was working with humans instead. Then I think, I would much rather snuggle with a dog


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Samba: 

My general dentist told me that digital x-rays were 20% radiation of old dental x-rays, meaning the film. I'm very aware of x-rays being suspect and wonder which is correct. Thanks


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

petitpie said:


> Samba:
> 
> My general dentist told me that digital x-rays were 20% radiation of old dental x-rays, meaning the film. I'm very aware of x-rays being suspect and wonder which is correct. Thanks


Maybe in dental? I dont do those, so I would have no idea if the 20% is accurate or not.

I do know that when I used to do hip rads on a medium size dog my KVP settings would be around 65, and an MAS of 8. With digital, KVP is close to 100 and MAS is about 6. Thats nearly twice the penetrating power of radiation, and a slight reduction in total amount (MAS). It also depends on the digital system you use, CR or DR. We have DR, which uses slightly less radiation than CR.

Supposedly, you can use lower MAS with digital, I have not been able to reproduce a good quality radiograph with a much lower MAS with digital however. It is the MAS which indicates the "amount" of radiation, and the KVP which determines the penetrating power of it. I bet in dental you could decrease the MAS, therefore decreasing one portion of the radiation, and increase the penetration so the radiation would shoot right through the patient and not be absorbed by them. I would be very suprised however if you can recude it to 20%. That would be pretty cool if that was true.

It actually makes sense that to the "patient" the actual absorbed dose is lower (because the penetrating power is higher, more passes right through). With a lower KVP like in film, the patient absorbs more of the radiation instead of having it pass through or scatter off.

This scatter, is what causes increased radiation to someone staying in the room (but not in the primary beam). So, for the "patient" the absorbed radiation is lower, but for someone in the room, the scatter radiation is so much higher. Hope that makes sense!


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

I have personally considered getting a hip test like the OP just because I am curious as to what's going on in there. 

My vet told me that he has good hips/joints based off a physical exam, would he have let me know if he thought I should have an x-ray?

My boy is 4 months old 19" and 23lbs.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

MaryLynn, Jazz' regular vet did tell me his hips felt great, too. I didn't fully trust him, but I suppose I should have. Everything to do with correcting bad hips is very, very expensive. Most people would not do a hip replacement or a ligament surgery on a dog anyway, so hip xrays would give you information, but for what purpose? Jazz shouldn't be a huge dog, but he is a little bigger than your boy. I am hoping to slow his growth, but mother nature will do what she is going to do.


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## Samba (Sep 14, 2012)

If you are planning on investing a lot of money into showing the dog for eventual breeding purposes, I would recommend PennHip before you invest too much money into showing. You could also do prelim OFA. If this is a pet dog, no...palpation is sufficient 

PennHip is fine after (I think) 5 months of age, whereas OFA requires the pet to be 2 years old...often dogs have already had show careers by then.

As for a pet, and your own curiosity, if you are neutering just ask for a VD hip shot then. It will be a lot cheaper


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

That makes sense, too, Samba. I can still send Jazz' in for a preliminary OFA if I like. My regular vet said Penn Hip can be done at 4 months or older.


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## MaryLynn (Sep 8, 2012)

outwest said:


> MaryLynn, Jazz' regular vet did tell me his hips felt great, too. I didn't fully trust him, but I suppose I should have. Everything to do with correcting bad hips is very, very expensive. Most people would not do a hip replacement or a ligament surgery on a dog anyway, so hip xrays would give you information, but for what purpose? Jazz shouldn't be a huge dog, but he is a little bigger than your boy. I am hoping to slow his growth, but mother nature will do what she is going to do.


I guess you are right, I guess I am just big into prevention. I realize I probably couldn't really prevent something like that, but at least I could plan and prepare for it if there was an indication that a major surgery would be needed. But yes, you're probably right.

@Samba - Yes, you're right too, and I definitely do not plan on showing him or breeding him, I guess I'm more-so just curious more than anything.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

MaryLynn, Then it might be worth it to you to have it done. I figured since he was young if there was an issue it is easier to address.


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## Nawal (Mar 3, 2012)

Oh Outwest, I am glad you did this and now have an answer to your big clumsy boy questions! I do not understand anything about bone structure or x-ray techniques but your vet's assessment sounds good and logical and your Jazz will get "used to himself" as you say soon.  

I had Puppet x-rayed for what ended up being...GAS. But considering bloat and all other potential issues I think anything that gives you peace of mind and confirms or denies your suspicions is money well spent.


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