# Poodle Critique



## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

I just gave Trev a haircut and want to know what y'all think. I'm going for a Modern trim, so....tell me what you think! First pic is before w/bath and other two are after.


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## spoowhisperer (Apr 26, 2010)

While I am not a groomer, I think you did a wonderful job! Gorgeous boy!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Well I can offer 2 critiques. 1. as a pet owner doing their own work or 2. more of a competition, minor tweeking critique.

1. As a pet owner I think you have done a great job. I think most pet owners would agree that working your own dog can be very hard. Usually a bit harder than what many people think.

2. As more of a critique here are some improvements but for me the pictures were a bit dark & I don't know the age of your dog so don't know if going through puppy coat etc. so the fluff work on the legs could be better.
a. the 3rd picture there is a noticable Roach in the back. One wants to achieve a level topline. Working from just behind the withers to the tail.
b. I find the Crest from the TK to the withers very steep & a noticable break between the crest into the withers. It should be a very smooth transition & the crest should melt into the withers a bit further back to give the appearance of a shorter backed dog.
c. I think in the chest area it seems that possibly the fullest part of the chest is right under your shaved neck? It should be a little further down where the breastbone sticks out, & tight right in the neck line.
d. Something is off in the rear & I can't put my finger on it. I don't know if the angle is too steep around the tail to the butt bone or if there is just too much hair on the top line.


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## Birdie (Jun 28, 2009)

He looks great! I think he has a lovely silhouette, and you did a great job cleaning him up. I think I would take his topline down tighter and straighter if it were me, but that's just my personal preference.  I like the really dramatic lines, you know.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

3dogs said:


> Well I can offer 2 critiques. 1. as a pet owner doing their own work or 2. more of a competition, minor tweeking critique.
> 
> 1. As a pet owner I think you have done a great job. I think most pet owners would agree that working your own dog can be very hard. Usually a bit harder than what many people think.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much! I'm actually a dog groomer of 1.5 yrs, and I will probably be doing some comps, so the second critique was what I needed. As for the fluff work on the legs, he's going through his coat change right now; the coat on his back is mostly adult and the coat on his legs is all puppy hair; it doesn't fluff well at all.  So that's what you're seeing there. OK, I'll try harder with the chest next time, I took it really short below the bottom of the "V", but I'll lower it some more. I think you're right about the topline, it's really hard to make it just right! As far as his neck to TK area, we're growing it out, I know it doesn't look quite right. Thanks again! You're tips were helpful.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am a new groomer for Poodle competition. I have been grooming for 10 1/2 years but just this year in the Poodle competition class. I will be working my 2 new poodles in July. My 1st time doing a German Trim but with my dog he has a really good coat it is just a matter of filling the faults in. I also like my leg line down really far like the Europeans & don't like American tight bevels. So, I will take in all the critiques I can get while in the ring. My Mini/Toy will be in a Japanese style & I have more experience with that style since I have started to convert many poodle owners into that style at least with the face. But she has gone through 1 puppy coat change & left holes in each leg. She is starting to get a mixed coat now with adult coarser hair & her soft puppy hair. 
I thought your dog might be a puppy due to the way he/she was fluffed in the legs because that is how my puppy turns out as well a bit seperated even with a nice dry fluff.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

They say a picture is worth a thousand words... so here is my critique in a picture:








Basically take the topline waaaaaay down (short short short!) And I'm not sure how short it is in the curve on the back of the back leg, but you want that really short (and I shortened it in the pic) too. ie 7F-short on that inner 'swoop' (but you gotta 'scoop' it in and out to blend it...)

also shortened the throat a touch to enhance the chest more, but it could also be his structure and you may not be ABLE to take it shorter there... 

Also tidied up the transition from the chest into the front of the front leg to enhance the chest more too. 

Taken hair off the tuck up and moved the tuck up forwards a bit in the process.




Now where I ADDED hair was: 
Hock hair (cos it looks cool and you get the idea of the 'swoop'); 
A little bit to the back of the neck to get that line flowing well into the topline (but it's actually very little I added, the majority of that tweaking is done by removing the coat along the back); 
The front legs; 
A little to the tail too (but it was just to remove your hand and get the bottom curve/bevel going so I could get the ass looking better);
A little to the front of the back legs, just to enhance the line there.

The growing hair thing will come with time and as his coat changes from the wimpy puppy fluff into a decent adult coat, so I really only put that on to show you what I was aiming for with the removing bits I did! He'll still need more on the topknot and stuff, and even more on the legs too really, but all that will come with time so don't see the point in putting in toooo much beyond what is realistic for you to be able to do right now!!!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

@flyingduster:
*Love *how you show the improvements with a picture--it really helps!!!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

flyingduster said:


> They say a picture is worth a thousand words... so here is my critique in a picture:
> View attachment 18389
> 
> 
> ...


WOW that was VERY helpful! Thanks so much. I've since figured out I need to shorten his topline, I went to a grooming workshop yesterday and they put a poodle into a modern and I learned a lot from watching them. But now that I have a pic of him, I can really start to get it right.  Thanks again!


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Flyingduster is awesome. I love your drawings they are so helpful even when the dog isn't ours. I can always use your information for my own dogs. So very helpful & fantastic.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

I love FlyingDuster's explanations too, and I don't groom my own (and probably never will). It's amazing how tiny changes in length and shape affect the appearance of the dog.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

What a transformation FlyingDuster! I also will never groom my own (I am still trying to work up the courage to do a touch up in between groomings) but I am learning so much what to look for. You are an artist.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

OK, so I redid Trev's haircut, it still isn't perfect but I think it's better. Here's what I did and a pic to go with it.

1) Used a 3 3/4 on his back
2) used a #7 at the bend in his back leg, I think I could still do some work back there though. Also his rear doesn't seem quite right? but I can't put a finger as to what it is.
3) Took his chest shorter, almost to the skin in some places. It still doesn't seem quite right, but I think that's partially his structure. 
4) Moved his tuck up forward a bit, is that far enough? It seems to me like he needs to grow some more hair in through there. 

I think that's about it. He still needs to grow some hair in his neck and on his topknot; it may be awhile before his tk is right, I've had to cut it pretty short to remove the awful wispies.  

Thanks!!


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

that looks HEAPS better; well done!!!!! And yup, the rest will pretty much be a case of growing hair really. You can keep tweaking as the hair grows in more, but it's a lot nicer outline to work with now than it was before (not that it was bad before! lol)

As for his butt, it may be that his tail is slightly low-set, in which case I'd take his topline down even shorter to help it look like it's not as low in the fluff... 

The chest will come together better with more hair on the chest to balance the short neck (but yes, he does appear to be slightly ewe-necked) so let that chest (particularly by the front legs) grow out a bit to 'round it out' more. Does that make sense??

Anyway, well done; keep it up!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

For the chest, do you mean like kinda where the breastbone is, but lower? Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

He looks lovely! Nice job!


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

mom24doggies said:


> For the chest, do you mean like kinda where the breastbone is, but lower? Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it!


lol, ok, this is what I mean about the chest:







and if you take it shorter down the back of the back legs and along the spine it'll shorten up the body more, like this:








and yup, I'd move the tuck up forwards a tad more, along with neck hair growth:








and for fun, I added hair length to the back legs, tidied the bevels and hair on the front legs, and added a *smidge* to the ribs area to round it out slightly to complete the look a bit more... lol!








If you directly compare the last pic to the one you posted (right click on the thumbnail and 'open in new tab' or new window, then flick between them) you can see that even though I've not changed how he's standing AT ALL, he looks much more 'proud' and 'upright' with a bit of chest and neck hair added in. In his current look he's poking his head a bit, the neck & chest hair balance it back into the classic 'proud poodle' look! It'll take time, but you should sorta get the idea....


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

Great details FlyingDuster. I love the last picture with the fuller hocks/legs.

What does one do when the tail is low set & one is doing a traditional Pom on tail? My dog has a low tail set BUT I am doing a German so my dog had a great deal of fill in to do. I wouldn't know what to do with the Pom tail since how does one correct with a straight back line?

Sorry, just thinking out load.


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## flyingduster (Sep 6, 2009)

a low set tail is best disguised by taking the spine super short (a 7F or shorter, if possible) regardless of if it's a pom or a carrot tail. You can also build up the shelf below the tail as often a low-set tail looks like it's coming right out the back of the dog, when a poodle looks best when it's almost coming from it's back more...! So building a false shelf of hair under the tail, and taking the spine as short as utterly possible, will both help raise the look of the tail.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks again FyingDuster, I understand about the chest better now.  I think that what I need to do now is just grow more hair on his tk/neck/legs.


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am building up the shelf under the tail. I took it too short my last groom job because I was following a video that said to take it short. So, I learned & now waiting for the extra hair to come in. I did notice that I did have to take the hair very short right between the hip bones, BUT I have to have some hair on the spine because he dips a little so he needs fill there too. Though I will remember that when I am competing to keep the topline short & very much between the hip bones & not really touch his shelf.

thank you for the advice.


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