# Toy/Mini Weight Calculator



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome! I think if size is that important to you—and you’re okay with the fragility of toy poodles—you should stick with breeders who are focused on toys rather than inter-variety breedings. Their pairings will be much more predictable.

Have you checked out this thread?









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Welcome! I think if size is that important to you—and you’re okay with the fragility of toy poodles—you should stick with breeders who are focused on toys rather than inter-variety breedings. Their pairings will be much more predictable.
> 
> Have you checked out this thread?
> 
> ...


Hi! I am concerned about the fragility of the toy poodle and a mini is fine. I just prefer for her to not be more than 12 lbs. My hope was to get advice on how big she is charting.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m not sure there’s an accurate calculator out there for toys, especially at such a young age, but here’s a recent thread on the topic: Size predicting for my toy poodle

I used this calculator for my standard poodle, and it wasn’t accurate until she was about 12 weeks old: 






Find Out Your Puppy's Adult Weight | Puppy Chart







www.puppychart.com





Your breeder would probably be the best resource for a size estimate, assuming he or she is experienced. But even an average sized miniature poodle would be larger than you want, and an inter-variety breeding throws those genes into the mix.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I have talked to others who have said to double the weight and they'll be about 20 pounds.


Were these folks experienced poodle owners? Seeing how small the sire is, 20lbs seems unlikely. Exceeding the 10-12lb tolerance is possible, but...
Have you seen the dam and sire in person?

That said, there is no way to predict with certainty that a pup will stay under a preferred or, in some cases, required weight limit. Even more so when an intervariety breeding is done. Some miniatures have standard poodles in their ancestry, so you could have some very unpredictable results. Along with seeing the parents, have you been shown the family tree (pedigree) for several generations back?

Do I understand that this is a first time breeder, and they chose to breed intervariety? That's a tricky pairing, even for experienced breeders, and only then to breed out a weak trait or breed in a strong one.

Conscientious breeders will generally be breeding to the middle to upper range of the height limit for conformation of toys and miniatures both. Toys will likely stay in or under your preferred weight limit. Miniatures are likely to grow over your preferred weight. A reminder that weight doesn't enter into the breed standard, so the healthy weight will be proportional to height and conformation.


My boys are a small mini/oversize toy cross and both boys have exceeded the weight and height of both their parents.

My small boy is about 13" and about 13lb. His larger brother is about 14" and 14.5 lb.

At 8w 4d they were 2.3lb and 2,8lb respectively. Their fully mature height and weight are above.

The pup you're considering is already larger, younger, than either of mine. But - that's them and their genetics and diet.

Any pup's eventual height and weight will be influenced not only by the genes passed on by parents but also by previous generations. There may be some larger ancestors contributing their genes.

More nutritious food might also be a factor.

The chart PTP linked didn't come close to correct til my two reached their 6m weight.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Were these folks experienced poodle owners? Seeing how small the sire is, 20lbs seems unlikely. Exceeding the 10-12lb tolerance is possible, but...
> Have you seen the dam and sire in person?
> 
> That said, there is no way to predict with certainty that a pup will stay under a preferred or, in some cases, required weight limit. Even more so when an intervariety breeding is done. Some miniatures have standard poodles in their ancestry, so you could have some very unpredictable results. Along with seeing the parents, have you been shown the family tree (pedigree) for several generations back?
> ...


I’m not sure if they’re Experienced owners. I asked on a poodle Facebook group and two out of the many comments that I got Seem to think that the puppy would reach 20 pounds and showed Poodle calculators that showed it.

I did see mom and the puppies in photos and via FaceTime and she isn’t huge. The puppies don’t look tiny compared to her. I’ve only seen a video and photos of dad and he is very tiny.

dad is health tested and genetic issue cleared and his wisdom panel results were shared with me. The weight predictor or the ideal weight for him said between 13 and 22 pounds. I’m not sure what that means though with it saying the ideal weight when he is 5 1/2 pounds.

but I have seen both and they are true to size to what the breeder told me. They used a dad as a stud to breed to their mini poodle. 

I’m starting to rethink this and maybe I should hold off until I find a breeder who breeds toy to toy or mini so mini.

Again, I am OK with 10 to 12 pounds or less. But it does concern me if there’s a possibility of the dog being bigger than that.

Any thoughts there? With the updated
information that I just provided? Thanks!

PS I just added photos


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Just click the photo icon to upload a photo. (It’s between the “link” icon and the camera icon.)










You will then be prompted to either a drag a photo file over to where it says “Drop Image” or click to upload a file.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

(Or you can just copy and paste the URL if the photos are on a public website or Facebook page.)


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Just added! Thanks!


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Is the photo in the grass a photo of the dad? If so, the website selling his stud services says he’s 7 lbs, not 5.5 lbs. And he’s 11” tall.

His DNA test says he’s a miniature poodle with all miniature poodles in his family tree. I would think he is very likely to produce puppies at the upper limit of what you’d like, probably larger.

I also don’t see any indication he’s been adequately health tested. Maybe just an oversight on the website? These resources will help educate you on this topic, so you feel comfortable presenting any questions to your breeder (whether it be this one or another you choose):






Toy Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org










Miniature Testing - Versatility In Poodles, Inc.


Versatility In Poodles, Inc.




vipoodle.org





The tests outlined at those links are considered the bare minimum for poodles who are being used as part of a breeding program. You want a healthy puppy, from healthy parents, who’s had the best possible start to life.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Any thoughts there? With the updated
> information that I just provided? Thanks!


I hope you don't mind if I ask another question first. How much are they asking for these puppies? 
(NM, I found that info on PuppyFind)

Between the info that you've added and what PTP found, it will make a difference in any further thoughts on them.

I will say that if any breeder tells you that their poodle will be a certain size or their red color won't change, that breeder has much to learn.

The other contradictory info bothers me.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Hello! Yes, that pic is the dad. May I ask where you found the ad for him?

I did a search for him on Hoobly and it shows 5.5 pounds and I also contacted his owner and she said he’s about 6 pounds and sent the video of him. He looks tiny.

They’re asking $1000 and offered me a year health guarantee.

They also sent me his wisdom panel results.

Im curious to know where you found his info and the other ad.

Are you all thinking I should I pass?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

You can take an image and Google search.
.
As for the parents, neither is the best representative of their breed. A year's health guarantee is nothing there are genetic issues that show up after 1 year, my Bea her knees started going south after that and had surgery on both, first knee at 16 months and then just shy of three years $4000 a knee.
Bare minimum PRA testing and testing for patella luxation and should be listed with O.F.A. and genetic testing can mean anything..


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## PandaB3ar (Dec 19, 2021)

> Are you all thinking I should I pass?


Yes, testing for mini should also include:

Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
Patellar Luxation OFA evaluation

Husband's mom went in for a pandemic puppy (against all my warning), her bichpoo has luxating patella. 
Same pricing, "health tests," and health guarantee - it didn't show up until she was a year old. She can't jump or go down stairs due to her condition.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

PandaB3ar said:


> Yes, testing for mini should also include:
> 
> Eye clearance by the Companion Animal Eye Registry (CAER)
> Hip Dysplasia evaluation from an approved agency
> ...


The wisdom panel doesn’t test for those?
Any thoughts on size? That’s the main question for me here.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Hello! I understand the tests. He had a wisdom panel test. Is that not acceptable?

I’m really looking for more advice on possible size.

Anymore thought there? Thanks!


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Wisdom panel is just a DNA test. Same as going and getting a genetic test or a blood test won't diagnose a human as being bowlegged. 

Patellas, etc, are physical tests or x rays.


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

If you know the breeders name and kennel I would ask on this group. I would ask for their OFA test.


https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?id=385849939172766&ref=content_filter




If you are wanting toy size I would definitely not get a breeding from a miniature toy cross. Sizing from miniatures can be hard to predict and you definitely can’t guarantee it. It’s whatever genetics they get from the dam and sire. So the dam could have oversize mini’s in their background and could have a oversize puppy even though they maybe in size. There are several people here on this forum that have toyxmini crosses that weigh over 11lbs.

How old did she say the Dad is and is that a recent picture? Ask for a picture of the parents with a clean face. It’s hard to see jaw face shape of the dog with a fuzzy face. You can hide a lot under hair.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Thanks! They’re not regular breeders. This is their 2nd liter and dogs aren’t registered.

The dad is AKC registered and health tested. He is two years old and they only shared the photos in the ad and in video.


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Thanks! They’re not regular breeders. This is their 2nd liter and dogs aren’t registered.
> 
> The dad is AKC registered and health tested. He is two years old and they only shared the photos in the ad and in video.


In that case I would save up and find a toy poodle breeder who does their full health testing. There maybe a waitlist but it’s worth it. You can ask from recommendations here and on that group or do a search on that group. I would avoid any breeder that mentions teacup. You will at least know what size you will be getting and even a oversize toy should be small enough to travel with.

My smaller mini fits under the plane seat..my bigger mini doesn’t. That size really opened up my ability to travel to shows so I really get that.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I found them on a retail broker site, Puppyfind.

A conscientious breeder will not use any site like that.

These mass selling sites are places that puppy mills can hide behind to sell.

This breeder is doing the minimum for long term health, in testing and selecting the dogs they breed. $1000 is a lot of money but this or any pup from breeders that aren't doing more at the start are more likely to cost more in money and health in the long run.

There are far better breeders out there.

You don't mention whether this is your first time researching and selecting a quality, conscientious breeder. In case this is new for you I'm adding a Tips list first.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet.* What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always_ breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from*. For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breedings are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews,* a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance*. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks.


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder.* The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*

*Testing is usually a mix of physical tests done by qualified vets and DNA/genetic testing. No poodle variety testing is DNA/genetic testing only. *

There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions. Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.
CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)


*Toy Poodle testing*

The OFA, working with the breed's parent club, recommends the following basic health screening tests for all breeding stock. Dogs meeting these basic health screening requirements will be issued Canine Health Information Center (CHIC) numbers. For CHIC certification, all results do not need to be normal, but they must all be in the public domain so that responsible breeders can make more informed breeding decisions. For potential puppy buyers, CHIC certification is a good indicator the breeder responsibly factors good health into their selection criteria. The breed specific list below represents the basic health screening recommendations. It is not all encompassing. There may be other health screening tests appropriate for this breed. And, there may be other health concerns for which there is no commonly accepted screening protocol available.



*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
Notes
In addition to the breed specific requirements above, a CHIC requirement across all participating breeds is that the dog must be permanently identified via microchip or tattoo in order to qualify for a CHIC number.


To check the testing that has been done on a dog, you will need one of these, the CHIC number, the (AKC/UKC in the US) registration number, or the registered name of the dog. To check the dog’s testing status, go to: Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO.

Many breeders will perform additional testing on their breeding dogs. All testing is valuable and gives information regarding the breeder’s interest in the future of his/her breeding program. Using the tools that are currently available will allow the breeder to successfully use the entire gene pool in combinations that provide for a healthy future for the breed.

Also see Code of Ethics - The Poodle Club of America


*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if *the sire and dam were not given the full recommended testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed. *If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times* and with pandemic puppy seekers, that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts, *let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences are understandable but* keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend *in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel *outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of* are those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights (breeding rights which allow future pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission.* A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.* That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

*An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. *An online search for "Poodle Club of *___* (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

*As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.*

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is _well bred._


*Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time *

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally, and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I hear you. I have been looking forever. The prices are also outrageous where I am for ones that aren’t health tested. $2800 and up. It’s discouraging.

I was really excited about bringing her home finally.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Hi! I did a Google search on the image like you all said and found that he's part of a website called Fur Baby Acres. Here is the link:



https://furbabyacres.com/



When you click on his name and info here is the link of all his information where is stated as a Miniature:









Prince Charming Charlies Report - Wisdom Health.pdf







drive.google.com





So I guess mom and dad are both mini's. 

Does this change anything with regards to size? Will the puppies be around mom or dad meaning 7-10 pounds full grown?


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Hi! I did a Google search on the image like you all said and found that he's part of a website called Fur Baby Acres. Here is the link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are not a reputable breeder. They breed everything and anything .


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Mel said:


> They are not a reputable breeder. They breed everything and anything .


Ok. So not reputable even though they health test for the breeds they do breed?


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Ok. So not reputable even though they health test for the breeds they do breed?


I don’t call someone reputable if they are breeding for mutts and trying to sell them at a high cost. There are plenty of crosses that need homes in the shelter. 

They are only DNA testing.

Do you see how many dogs they have ? That is a big commercial breeder. So did they lie to you about it being their 2nd litter?
Or is the stud from a doodler that will stud to anything ( it could be that since the dam isn’t registered) …it’s all about the $$$$


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I hear what you're saying.

Do you consider a breeder that breeds toy poodles and maltipoo's a non reputable? Serious question. I'm learning alot here.

The people that are breeding mixed are the owners of the dad.

The people who have the puppies bred mini poodle to mini poodle.

Still red flag?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

They aren't doing the right health testing and I think you said only the dad was tested on the little they did do. 
Folks like this may be producing puppies but they are not conscientious breeders, doing *all *they can to ensure healthy puppies. 

They know marketing, they don't know poodles. Or any of the other breeds they may be selling. 

They can't seem to decide what the dad is but two miniature poodles bred will not likely be small.


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Each breed has their own health tests. A gene test, which is all I see evidence of on that puppy mill site you linked, is not nearly enough.

To look at it from a different perspective, I have done my dna test. It tests for many possible genetic issues, but you can have issues outside of it. It shows I am 100% human (😉), but it doesn’t show that I have terrible eyesight. I have to go to a doctor for that and get their opinion.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Yes, all flags are out on this and any player that conducts business like this.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I just looked up Wisdom panel and it states that they test for everything?

Wisdom Panel Premium is a dog DNA test that identifies the breeds in your dog's background, and I found the results were spot-on. It also checks for *genetic health conditions, medication sensitivities, immune deficiencies, and bleeding disorders*.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

They aren't doing the right health testing for purebred dogs. That automatically means twice the testing not done when crossing breeds to make a mixed breed.
And, they're breeding merle poodles.

So called "breeders" like this are in the manufacturing business, selling a product
That is not the way of a breeder who is looking to the future of the breed rather than their own gain.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Yes. The dad's owners or not but the breeder of the deposit I have down bred mini to mini.

Still no difference?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Minis are bigger than toys. 
What do you think that will mean?


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I know. I wish there was the perfect size of 8-10 lbs. no taller than 10 inches. I don't want super duper tiny like 4-5 pounds. This is such a challenge. 

So with what I want you still think the toy is what I need to find?


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## Mel (Apr 4, 2012)

Xrays and physical exams are different than DNA test. Miniature’s are supposed to have eye exams from a specialist, hips x rayed, patella’s examined and results sent to OFA. So that is not the same as a DNA test that you swab the cheek ( which should also be done).


I would reread the post that rose-n-poos posted.



Most good toy breeders do not breed for the smaller toy size. They do not do as well in the show ring and they have more complications giving birth.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

It’s disappointing that people assume DNA testing covers everything. It’s not the recommended testing And it really doesn’t offer too much important information. For example DNA testing to show the dog is a poodle is irrelevant when you buy from a quality breeder who shows in conformation and is careful when choosing a stud dog to mate with her dam.

DNA testing is like getting blood work when you may have a bone fracture. What you really need are X-rays and maybe an MRI. If you would change doctors if yours only offered you blood work, then you should change breeders too. You can do better.

I see merle poodles, doodles of all kinds, random dogs. What I don’t see is a well bred poodle. I’m sorry to disappoint you.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Toy size and structure FROM A QUALITY, CONSCIENTIOUS BREEDER is your best bet BUT THERE ARE STILL NO GUARANTEES THAT THE WEIGHT WILL BE WHAT YOU WANT. 

Genetics will rule that which is why you need to find a quality breeder. They will be able to prove their claims several generations back. 

STILL NOT A GUARANTEE, but best odds. 

RUN from any breeder using the term teacup, even if they say they also have bigger pups. 
They don't know poodles. 

Sorry for shouting but it's important for you that you hear.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

In addition to taking a pup with you on planes, what's your plan for the rest of your lives together?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Would this be your first puppy? Dog? Poodle?


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Yes. This is my first pup. 

I lead a simple life. The occasional Sunday brunch and I paddleboard in the summer and I travel a few times a year.

But would like to be able to take her everywhere with me that I can.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

A healthyvwell bred toy can do all of that. My boy's breeder has produced agility dogs and the toy breeder I am getting my future pup from does agility as well.
My boy is 11" and 6 1/4 pounds, his cousin is also over sized at 11" and 8 pounds


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Thanks. I texted the breeder and asked for my deposit back. We'll see if I get it. Now I'm off to searching again. It's taken me almost a year to find this one that I thought was good. I'm really discouraged. 

This dog will be my ESA too so it's just sad that I can't find anything that I'm looking for from someone I can trust. 

I thought I could with these as they even offer a two year health guarantee on the dads website at least.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Thanks. I texted the breeder and asked for my deposit back. We'll see if I get it. Now I'm off to searching again. It's taken me almost a year to find this one that I thought was good. I'm really discouraged.
> 
> This dog will be my ESA too so it's just sad that I can't find anything that I'm looking for from someone I can trust.


You can absolutely find a breeder you can trust. And this little companion of yours is going to be so worth the effort! Here’s the link I originally shared with you, and it’s a great place to (re)start your journey:









🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


GEOGRAPHICAL BREEDERS LIST AND ADDITIONAL RESOURCES PLEASE READ THIS FIRST What this list is NOT: This list is not an endorsement of any breeder by Poodle Forum This list is not a list to just go buy from without doing more investigation This list is not comprehensive What this list IS: This...




www.poodleforum.com





Think of the past year as wandering around, maybe a little lost in the woods. These resources are a roadmap that will get you headed down the right path. We’ll be here to offer additional direction and moral support as needed.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Thanks! I have already contacted those on that list and there aren't many who have toys. The few that do, aren't breeding or are way out of my price range, unfortunately. 

I want this for emotional support and companionship, I'm not breeding and all of that. So just sad that it's so difficult.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Thanks! I have already contacted those on that list and there aren't many who have toys. The few that do, aren't breeding or are way out of my price range, unfortunately.
> 
> I want this for emotional support and companionship, I'm not breeding and all of that. So just sad that it's so difficult.


Don’t focus on the list, but rather the resources before it. They will help you to evaluate potential breeders.

I know it’s daunting, but there are loads of stories on Poodle Forum of people finding their companions. Read them for inspiration and when you need a little encouragement.

Prices seem to have gone a little nutty thanks to covid, so that is indeed an additional hurdle right now. But saving a thousand dollars upfront only to drop five times that on health issues by year three.... That’s not a situation you want to get into.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Emotional support animal isn't the same a a service dog and not allowed everywhere. Emotional support animal is allowed by a doctor's letter in housing that doesn't except pets and that is it.
Service dogs work and must be 4 in the floor and basically invisible whilst working.
Also there is a saying pay the breeder or pay the vet,


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

I bought my poodle (miniature x toy poodle carrying merle) from a random breeder.

I found out that breeding different sizes and merle genes are a big no from this wonderful forum.

Rusty is wonderful. I adore him and I was falling apart emotionally which was why I went down the route of buying him this way.

I usually get rescues. Have wanted a poodle for many years. He is my 5th dog and 1st poodle.

He is around 12 inches high and weighs 17.6lbs. He may not even be pure poodle.

He has been an amazing support just by being him.

I wish you lots of luck in you search for your new companion.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Tulsi said:


> I bought my poodle (miniature x toy poodle carrying merle) from a random breeder.
> 
> I found out that breeding different sizes and merle genes are a big no from this wonderful forum.
> 
> ...


So maybe the risk of buying from this breeder is worth it?


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Are you all thinking I should I pass?


Just echoing what folks said here. If the parents are two minis, they can throw large puppies regardless of the parents size. Even my dog’s dad who is GCH toy, throws BIG toys occasionally. If small size is important to you, go to a toy breeder and wait for an oversized toy.

Also for comparison, my toy, who is just under 6lbs now was 4lbs at 5 months old and is still crawling up to adult weight at 16 months now. He will probably stop at 6 lbs and some change.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Honestly no, you might get lucky have no issues. But my pup who was wonderful and beautiful, didn't show health issues right away I paid $750 for her and spent $25,000 in medical bills, and the heartbreak of losing her at 7 1/2 years, never again.
I paid $2500 for my boy 4 years ago, he is beautiful healthy and wonderful. Veterinary visits for normal stuff.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I'm sorry to hear. It's a risk I think either way. Even if parents are health tested and clear, can't something skip a generation?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> So maybe the risk of buying from this breeder is worth it?


Absolutely not worth the risk if size is a non-negotiable for you. Tulsi’s boy Rusty grew to 17.6 lbs.

Additionally, it sounds like the breeder you chose hasn’t been honest with you about the sire’s size. Is that correct? That alone would be reason to request your deposit back and look elsewhere. What else are they being dishonest about in order to make a sale?

If all you really want is a puppy _right now _(something j can 100% relate to), check out your local shelters and rescue groups. There are litters of unwanted puppies born every day who need you as badly as you need them.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I'm sorry to hear. It's a risk I think either way. Even if parents are health tested and clear, can't something skip a generation?


A reputable breeder knows their lines for decades and keeps track of all of their puppies health and for anomalies. This is also why line breeding is useful and important, a semi-closed breeding program does not have usually have surprises.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Health testing is very important,
the dogs you show are not the best quality, the puppies aren't either.

Do you want to take a chance? 

Let's not even look at the money, look at the facts, PRA will make a dog blind, I.V.D.D. affects small dogs , why exasperate it by doing a inter-variety breeding that can result in a long back dog with short legs, my surviving girl has IVDD, that's intervertebral disk disease, so far I have been lucky she recovered from her incident but my first toy poodle ruptured a disk in her neck and was paralyzed from the neck down and sadly had to be put down.


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## Phaz23 (May 31, 2020)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> So maybe the risk of buying from this breeder is worth it?


No. Everyone is explaining why it is not.

You can adopt a dog of the same risk and quality at your local shelter or breed rescue. Just look on petfinder.com for a toy or mini poodle. An adult will also have a guaranteed size and good idea of temperament


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Rose n Poos said:


> *A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy doesn't have much to back it if *the sire and dam were not given the full recommended testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.
> 
> *Read thru any contracts that may be listed. *If they rule out coverage for conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?





Rose n Poos said:


> *Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance*. Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.
> 
> The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet". Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.
> 
> ...



We all want for anyone who wants a poodle/dog to have one but that brings obligations from the human who takes them on. You must be willing and able. You are taking on an infant who must have all their needs met by another, very much like a human infant. They will mature but they'll be no less dependent on you every day of their lives.
You need to provide food, bedding, toys, exercise, training and more. See the threads on what it costs to own a poodle just for everyday expenses.

Now let's talk about unforeseen medical costs. Any dog can step in a hole/fall downstairs/jump off a sofa/be attacked by a loose unleashed dog that runs off/you name it and break their leg or sustain severe puncture wounds and tissue damage. You're driving. Someone runs a red light, and you slam on the brakes. Your pup is not secured in a crash tested harness, breaks free of it due to the sudden deceleration force and is flung thru the windshield into oncoming traffic.

You get her to the vet and they say it's going to need surgery with a specialist. You go to the specialist. It's going to cost over $4000 to repair the damage to her. What will you do? This happens, look for the threads here. People have had to give their pets up to shelters or, worse, euthanize them because they couldn't afford the care. How is that right?

Going thru a responsible, accountable, conscientious breeder gives you both the better odds for a long, healthy, happy life because *there are some things where the odds can be improved.*
That's the correct and recommended health testing which is determined by the official breed clubs and posted publicly on the OFA site.
They will choose the pair they breed with great care. They'll look at strengths and weakness and choose a mate that will improve those.
They'll breed with care so you and your dog will have the best chances for that long. happy, healthy life together. Choosing a quality breeder is choosing better odds.





Re the ESA, twyla covered much of it and here's what the federal government says:
*Q3. Are emotional support, therapy, comfort, or companion animals considered service animals under the ADA?
A*. No. These terms are used to describe animals that provide comfort just by being with a person. Because they have not been trained to perform a specific job or task, they do not qualify as service animals under the ADA. However, some State or local governments have laws that allow people to take emotional support animals into public places. You may check with your State and local government agencies to find out about these laws.
Frequently Asked Questions about Service Animals and the ADA

**You'll also need to check with any business prior to ask their specific policies. Except for housing, if that doesn't change, ESA's have no legal standing or rights to go "anywhere". "

*Emotional Support Dogs*
Emotional support dogs or emotional support animals (ESAs) provide comfort, a calming presence, and company. Emotional support dogs do not have access to all public areas. But they do qualify for no-pet housing. Housing authorities may request a physician’s letter because some have abused the use of emotional support dogs over the years.

Previously ESAs were allowed to fly in the cabin with documentation, but in December 2020, the U.S. Department Of Transportation (DOT) announced it no longer considers ESAs a special assistance animal for air travel. As a result, it’s now up to the airlines to set their own ESA policies. Most major U.S. carriers are following the DOT guidelines and only allow trained service animals:


Alaska – As of January 11, 2021, Alaska only accepts trained service dogs.
American Airlines – As of January 11, 2021, travel for ESAs is no longer authorized.
Delta – ESA reservations submitted and confirmed before January 11, 2021, are accepted. But, they no longer book new ESA reservations.
Southwest – As of March 1, 2021, Southwest only accepts trained service dogs.
Spirit – As of January 11, 2021, ESAs can travel onboard as pets only.
United – Will honor ESAs for reservations purchased before January 11, 2021, for travel on or before February 28, 2021. After February 28, 2021, they will no longer allow ESAs.
Note: Pets (including ESAs) that meet an airline’s specific requirements may travel with you or in cargo but are subject to paperwork and fees.
Learn more about flying with dogs
There is no formal training needed to be an emotional support dog, which is why you may see some that are not that well-behaved. However, there are some characteristics you’ll want to know so you have the best experience with your emotional support dog.

Service Dog vs Therapy Dog vs Emotional Support Dogs – CanineJournal.com



Rose n Poos said:


> *It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from*. *For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US and Canada.*


This is far more a quest than a shopping expedition. If you're both lucky you're looking at 15 years of life together. Imagine your sweet girl with pain thru her life because of her breeding.



ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I'm sorry to hear. It's a risk I think either way. Even if parents are health tested and clear, can't something skip a generation?


For genetic testing, whether it's a part of the recommended testing or just a bonus, the testing is good for one generation. That means if the parents don't have that genetic condition or disease, then they literally cannot pass it down to their offspring. This is only relevant for those offspring to not receive any of those since they don't exist in the parents. Mutations can happen so this is only for those pups. This isn't "skipping" a generation. It takes into account the possibility for other mutations in that next generation.

The issue is that very few of those genetic tests are for issues likely to happen, if one is going to happen. They also don't cover "every possible" disease or condition because the gene/s responsible may not have been identified yet. They may be identified but the test hasn't been devised yet (think cancer, kind of), or they may be identified and a test devised but the breeder didn't choose to run that panel or test.

For the health testing which is done by physical exams there are no genetic tests for them (yet, maybe never) so testing both the parents before breeding and looking at the health of the prior generations is the only way to assess the possibility of these life-altering, not common, but more likely if there would be an issue, problems.
If three dogs out of seven in the last two generations have bad knees requiring surgery ($2-4000), would you knowingly take that risk? I wouldn't, not unless I can afford to fix my pup so they can live a full life.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Well the breeder won't send my $200 back. He said he told me if I sent $500 deposit he would refund it but because he's turned 3 people away he won't give me the money. I'm so upset. 

Part of me feels stuck on just taking her cause of the loss.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Take it as a lesson learned, if he has turned 3 people away he can certainly find some one else to pay for the pup. That is someone trying to guilt you.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I don't believe that he'd refund it under any circumstances. They have too many dogs to talk about "turning anyone away". 

The more I hear, the less I'd want to give that person a single more penny. 

I understand about the money, no one wants to just give money away, but that could be a very small loss compared to the the other possibilities. 

If you can't afford to lose $200 how will you cover unexpected expenses? One ER visit at 2am for a puppy vomiting for several hours will be $400 and upwards.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I can’t give legal advice, but will reiterate this:



PeggyTheParti said:


> It sounds like the breeder you chose hasn’t been honest with you about the sire’s size. Is that correct?


I was once sold an extremely expensive mattress specifically because of my chemical sensitivity. It ended up being fragranced with (still can’t even believe this) artificial vanilla.  It took time and effort, but you better believe I got my money back!

Also, I’m guessing you’ve heard the saying “Don’t throw good money after bad”?

throw good money after bad

Going deeper into this purchase only makes sense if this is the right puppy for you. Is she?

Keep in mind: A good breeder wants their puppies to go to a home that is the right fit for them. If this breeder knows their puppies likely won’t meet your size requirements, why would they be comfortable giving you one?


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

I agree 100%. I just messaged him again and said I would like it back. I will write a bad review on him and the listing as being not true. I have screen shots of everything as well.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I’m proud of you not only for being strong, but also for doing your research. Cute puppies are so hard to resist. It’s hard to trust your gut when your heart is screaming YES, PLEASE!!

Just know you’re not alone in this experience.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This is just the poodles. They are breeding merle in every breed and cross.

Pricing & Waitlists (furbabyacres.com)

*Poodles*
All pricing is for "Pet Only" and requires the execution of a spay/neuter agreement. *If you are a breeder and are interested in purchasing one of our Fur Babies for your program please contact us.
*Current Waitlist*

A $200 non-refundable deposit is required to be added to a waitlist. At the time of puppy selection, an additional $300 non-refundable deposit is required to secure your puppy pick. Both deposits will be applied to your puppy purchase price.

*MINI / Toy- Future Litter(s)*

Fur Baby Acres

*MOYAN - Future Litter(s)*


Fur Baby Acres
Fur Baby Acres
*STANDARD - Future Litter(s)*

Fur Baby Acres
Fur Baby Acres
Huebner
*Toy, Mini, Moyen - Solid or Parti*
$2,500
Expected Adult Weight Toy <35 lbs
*Toy, Mini, Moyen - Phantom/Merle*
$3,000
Expected Adult Weight <35 lbs

*Standard - Solid or Parti*
$2,000
Expected Adult Weight >45 lbs

*Standard - Phantom or Merle*
$2,500
Expected Adult Weight >45 lbs

Pricing & Waitlists (furbabyacres.com)


Merle is not natural to poodles and in the wrong combination is so detrimental to health.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose, I believe the seller used a stud from that breeder, but that’s not the breeder the OP was working with.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Rose, I believe the seller used a stud from that breeder, but that’s not the breeder the OP was working with.


That is correct


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Thanks for the clarification.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> Thanks for the clarification.


Gotta say this gave me a chuckle:



Rose n Poos said:


> Expected Adult Weight Toy <35 lbs


I guess at least they’re being honest. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

He is texting me photos that he's seeing results that the stud is toy/miniature which is what the panel showed but the panel that is listed on the studs breeders site they show him as miniature. He's saying it wasn't false advertising as the dog is small (which he is) but I don't get why one panel is showing him as toy/miniture and the other is showing him as miniature.

Either way, I just want my money back. This is all very anxiety inducing for me.

Can I get my refund back via pay pal if it's considered fraud? Cause the advertisement was misleading?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Unless he financed his own panel on someone else's dog, it's puzzling where he'd get that info. The legal owner presumably is the only one with that info, I should think.

Ask if you can see that info directly on the testing website, wherever he's pulling that info from.

Are there two possible sires? Is the name the same on both panels? Same company?

This sire that we can see the Wisdom Panel on is a miniature if _he_ came from miniature sire and dam.

"Small" doesn't mean anything by itself in determining poodle variety.

One of our members, Pavie has a project going, charting the height and weight of responding members poodles of each variety here on PF. You'll need to increase magnification to see the variances.











If those pups are 7 weeks or younger in that photo with the dam, they are huge compared to her (surely not still nursing and surprised that they all made it thru the delivery, especially if she's the toy).

My boys basically quintupled their 8w weight from 2.3 and 2.5lb to almost 13 and 15lb.

These pups are 3.4lb at 7w 2d? Multiply that x5 and that accounts for the 20lb that the FB group came up with.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

He is telling me that the advertisement is correct as they are listed toy/mini. He won't work with me at all. Even after I said I was filing a dispute and writing a review. 

The pups are 7 weeks and a few days that day the photo was taken and I thought they looked huge compared to mom too. The mom is supposedly the mini at 10 pounds.

I guess I have to take a loss. Even though he told me the deposit was refundable. 

This hurts.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> He is telling me that the advertisement is correct as they are listed toy/mini. He won't work with me at all. Even after I said I was filing a dispute and writing a review.
> 
> The pups are 7 weeks and a few days that day the photo was taken and I thought they looked huge compared to mom too. The mom is supposedly the mini at 10 pounds.
> 
> ...


I read all the posts and just want to applaud you for walking away. You have been given very sound advice from everyone. There are so many disreputable breeders/sellers now, and online sales have just made the problem much worse. People have thought they were purchasing a dog, paid thousands of dollars only to have the seller disappear with the money. Scams abound. I’m sorry you may be out $200, but it could be so much worse: you could end up with a puppy that might develop serious health issues that will be heartbreaking and costly. Stick around the forum and you’ll get a lot of help as you look for the right fur baby to bring home.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

THANK YOU!! It’s hard but I know it’ll work out.

sadly, I came to the conclusion that even if the puppy was a little bit bigger it wouldn’t be the end of the world. But, the fact that the mom isn’t health tested and all of that on top of some of the other things made me decide to walk away.

Where can I get more info on toy poodle breeders near me? I tried the links that were provided and a lot of the numbers are disconnected or the few that I did get through there no longer breeding.


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## Piper Bear (Apr 12, 2021)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Hello Poodle Lovers! I am talking to a breeder who has had their first liter and have listed their puppies as Toy/Mini Poodles.
> 
> The Dad is 5.5 pounds full grown and super tiny. The Mom is 10 pounds and 11 inches tall full grown.
> 
> ...


Just for comparison purposes, our mini female weighed 3 pounds and 2 ounces when we picked her up at 10.5 weeks old She is now almost 2 years old and is 13.5 inches and about 12.5 pounds. Your pup is already 3.4 pounds at 7 weeks old so he/she may grow to be be even bigger than our Piper.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

From the Breeder List and the Tips list...the Clubs are a very good place to start making connections.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
or
The Poodle Club of (your city/state/region)
or
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America
or
Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)

Contact a few of their recommended breeders by phone first if possible. Ask if they have a few minutes to talk with you about their dogs. Tell them you were referred by the Club, a bit about yourself and why you want a poodle. Ask them how they got into breeding and why they chose poodles.
Just make a connection and listen to what they can tell you. If you don't go with them, that's ok, but listen. Follow up in a week with a Thank You email. Money should not come up at this point. As you speak with a few, you'll hopefully see the difference for yourself. 

There aren't all that many quality breeders and most will know or know of each other, so take note of that. We've seen it happen that, after a positive connection is made, if they don't have the pup you're hoping for, they may hear of one, and you might be recommended.

We've seen some wait for months, even years, and others just happen by when a door opens.

Are you open to a slightly older pup or a young adult? There's a lot to be said for choosing one rather than a baby puppy. Size will be closer to or at the full adult size, temperament will be known, and if there are any early health issues, they'll be known or corrected, so fewer surprises, loss of sleep, and crying thru the night - you and the pup.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

You've made a hard decision which comes with this territory. There's been a lot of unexpected information offered and it may take a bit to let it all find it's place. 

Keep asking questions!


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> From the Breeder List and the Tips list...the Clubs are a very good place to start making connections.
> PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
> or
> The Poodle Club of (your city/state/region)
> ...


I did all of this and no good leads.


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## a2girl (Oct 4, 2020)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I did all of this and no good leads.


Someone who was very helpful to me last year as I began my search is Leslie Newing who is the breeder referral contact for breeders east of the Mississippi for the Poodle Club of America. She has been inundated with calls and emails so be patient (and respectful!) but once I connected with her by phone, she kept me posted on available puppies from breeders that don't advertise in any way. I will say that I had educated myself thoroughly and let her know that so I think she felt confident in referring me.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Part


ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I did all of this and no good leads.


When you say "no good leads", what does that mean to you? This will help us, if you'd be more specific.

Do you mean that you reached the referral people who gave you breeder names, you contacted those breeders and they either didn't answer or didn't have any puppies right now or ??

Are you looking only for breeders who have puppies on the ground right now?


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Hi! Yes, they don't have any or many of the numbers aren't even active anymore.

I did get in touch with one referred by the Poodle Club but they don't do all of the tests that are recommended.

They have the PRA tests done and cleared but nothing else.

She said she has 4 generations back and no problems.

Is she good to buy from cause of that?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

More info would be helpful. It is within forum rules to ask about a breeder by name, if you're comfortable doing that. There may be members who have dogs from her and you might get some personal experiences.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Hello! Sure. Her name is MaryJo Baranowski of Primrose Poodles in Ohio. She was referred by the main referral person on one of the links you posted. Western Reserve Poodle Club of Ohio.

She has been breeding for 40 years and goes back generations with no known problems. They do have the eye test and that is cleared.

She seems great but I'm curious to know how it works with breeders who have years worth of dogs vs. breeders who test, etc.

Thanks!

P.S. She deworms them and gives them their shots at 7 weeks and recommends I take to vet to check for issues. I asked her where she gets the vaccines and she gets them from the vet. She worked at a vet hospital for 25 years and now is a dog groomer.

Seems like she's charging alot at $2500 if they're not even vet checked and all that?


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Not sure what you mean by "I'm curious to know how it works with breeders who have years worth of dogs vs. breeders who test, etc." 
$2500 seems in line and their Website says all are vet checked before they go to their forever homes.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

We just texted and she said she gives their first vaccines at 7 weeks and deworms them and suggest that I take for first vet check. She doesn't have them vet checked.

I mean by is there a difference buying from a breeder who has years worth of healthy genetic blood lines without testing vs. breeders who test because it's highly noted here to not buy from a breeder who doesn't test?


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## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

I personally might be okay with clear by parentage for a generation or two depending on the test. This short read might shed some light on that. I would probably not be comfortable with never doing any testing. 









Clear By Parentage Policy | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO


Learn more about the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals policies and what the "Clear By Parentage Policy" means for health testing and pet owners.




www.ofa.org


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Thanks! She hasn't done testing. She goes many years back with no known health issues. 

How do they come recommended by the breeders association I wonder if they aren't doing all of the right things? 

This is all so complicate and exhausting. One minute, it's ok if they do some tests, the next is no, then it's ok if the generations go back and are ok..lol

At the end of the day, there is still no guarantee even if the parents are healthy that the dog will be healthy, right?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

OFA testing for Primrose Poodles
Advanced Search | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org) 



ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Thanks! She hasn't done testing. She goes many years back with no known health issues.
> 
> How do they come recommended by the breeders association I wonder if they aren't doing all of the right things?


She does do some testing as you can see above. She's being recommended because she has a record of continually breeding good poodles. 

I would consider going thru her myself, if I were on the quest because she's got a very good history, so far as I can see. What I'd want to know is what's her health guarantee? How confident is she in her assessment of her poodles and how does she back that up? 

The health testing issue becomes tricky at times with long established breeders with a long-established healthy line. 

Until the dog genome was sequenced, 2005 I think, no DNA testing was created let alone available. It's only been the various physical exams and breeders sharing knowledge to breed better until this last decade or so.

Up til that point,_ all breeders really had to go on was the history they could see, whatever physical (phenotype) testing was being done, and information voluntarily placed in pedigree databases, online or written. Common sense and observation took them as far as it could. Some breeders still rely on that, with less emphasis on the testing._

So, she does some testing and for the most part relies on her practical knowledge and experience. This is definitely not the now preferred way but, as you point out, there are no guarantees, only ways to better the odds. 

I use this analogy. My house used to have a wood shingle roof. Lightning strikes, fire jumping from a neighbors roof, a bottle rocket landing on it and catching fire, all those things were very real risks, not common, but real.

When it was time to replace the roof, we chose a composition material which was highly rated on the fire resistance scale. My insurance company thanked us by giving a discount on our home insurance, so they also considered this a reduction of a real risk.

This doesn't mean my house can't still catch on fire, but it's not likely to be from some of the most common reasons.

Other items aren't automatically insured so I either need to pay additionally for that coverage or go without and hope I have the savings to replace or repair any damage, and that, worst of all, they won't be lost forever because I can't afford any of that.

Health testing is insurance against some specific heartbreaks but not all. 

Health insurance on your pup is another part of the equation. It can't stop things from happening but can make for much better outcomes. If you have the wherewithal to go without insurance, that's lucky. Not all of us do, and many of us have made sacrifices and hard decisions.

It comes down to what risks are you willing to accept, for yourself, your family and your pup.


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## ToyPoodleLover12 (12 mo ago)

Thanks so much! I just talked to her and she doesn’t do the vet checks since Covid hit but said she could with this liter.

She doesn’t have an official contract but she does offer a guarantee against some things like heart, liver and I forgot what else she said.

I asked if she would be willing to draw one up and she said that she would.

She said that she’s been doing this for many many years and has repeat customers and she wouldn’t breed unless the parents and the parents of those etc. down the line wer healthy. But if there were some thing to come up like a heart or liver issue or anything like that within the year she would replace the puppy.

I think I’m going to go with Her. Only thing is she only has one male left right now.

He’s apricot the color I want and a good size. Larger toy about 8 lbs 11 inches full grown.

I just had my heart set on a girl lol

I have heard that the males or more of mamas boys which it’s just me so that would be great but I worry about marking in humping and things like that inside of the house although I’m getting him fixed.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> recommends I take to vet to check for issues


That should always be done. This is in everyone's best interest. This doesn't necessarily mean that she hasn't, but it is one of the first steps you should take regardless, usually within 2-3 days af getting a pup home..

I'm still trying to link the names of the toy poodles on the OFA site but it's unlikely that there are two kennels with toy poodles allowed to use the same name.

She's still showing as of last year per the photo on her site.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> I think I’m going to go with Her. Only thing is she only has one male left right now.
> 
> He’s apricot the color I want and a good size. Larger toy about 8 lbs 11 inches full grown.
> 
> ...


There's threads around on males vs females. I have my first boys with my current two. Yes, there are pee differences, but I really see very little difference otherwise. 

Humping and marking can happen with either gender. Those behaviors can be trained out, if they appear at all. 
We'll have you covered there. 

She may write in the contract about neutering. Just ask if it can be delayed til he reaches full growth, probably around 8m for a toy (correct me toy owners if needed). This is to allow all the growth hormones to finish their job thru his whole body before removing them.


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## Karin S (Aug 22, 2021)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Hello Poodle Lovers! I am talking to a breeder who has had their first liter and have listed their puppies as Toy/Mini Poodles.
> 
> The Dad is 5.5 pounds full grown and super tiny. The Mom is 10 pounds and 11 inches tall full grown.
> 
> ...


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## Karin S (Aug 22, 2021)

Hi, I have a 9-10 pound, 2.5 year old female poodle. We picked her up at 8 weeks and she was an adorable 4 pounds, possibly a little heavier but not much. Hopefully that helps.


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## Lydia Hill (Jul 2, 2021)

ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Hello Poodle Lovers!
> 
> 
> ToyPoodleLover12 said:
> ...





ToyPoodleLover12 said:


> Hello Poodle Lovers! I am talking to a breeder who has had their first liter and have listed their puppies as Toy/Mini Poodles.
> 
> The Dad is 5.5 pounds full grown and super tiny. The Mom is 10 pounds and 11 inches tall full grown.
> 
> ...


I've had three poodles in my lifetime: 1 miniature, weighing 12-15 lbs (15lbs eating human food, 12 eating dry dog food); he lived seventeen years and ten months. My second was a toy poodle, weighing 5-7 lbs (7 lbs when adding human food scramble eggs and baked chicken). He lived eighteen years and one day; he passed June 18, 2021. I have a new puppy, toy poodle currently at almost eight months he is weighing nearly 5 lbs. This is the first time I am experiencing the fragility aspect of the toy breed. He has broken the same leg twice and recently underwent surgery for the second fracture ($5000.00). The miniature poodle was a gift from my father when I was 17. The only reason I did not choose a miniature is because of the barking. He would bark all day when I was away. To help, I would take him to daycare and pick him up on my way home. Some literature states that toys are a little friendlier and tolerate more human contact.

In contrast, miniatures tend to align themselves with one person in the family, which was my scenario. He, however, was gorgeous, beautiful, thick black coat with a natural show walk, and very smart. My first toy smart, playful, carefree, happy-go-lucky, had some genetic issues: Atypical Cushions, he overproduced sex hormones which made his coat very thin. 

My current toy, Kohl was purchased from Primerose Poodles: Primrose Poodles

Good luck with your search. Lydia


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