# Brown puppy changing colour - advice please



## rdelrigo

Looks like he might be a cafe au lait. They are born brown brown, have liver colored points, and clear to the lighter cream color by age two. He certainly looks gorgeous whatever color he ends up being!


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## just poodling about

Thanks!
If he were to be a cafe au lait that would be lovely.

I also wondered about silver beige but was not sure what colour they were born or if that could be a possibility too?
But certainly he does look a god match to some of the puppy pictures of cafe au lait poodles around the web.
- thanks for your help!


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## rdelrigo

just poodling about said:


> Thanks!
> If he were to be a cafe au lait that would be lovely.
> 
> I also wondered about silver beige but was not sure what colour they were born or if that could be a possibility too?
> But certainly he does look a god match to some of the puppy pictures of cafe au lait poodles around the web.
> - thanks for your help!


Silver beige are also born brown and have liver colored points but the hair has a silver hue to it as it clears. The lighter areas of hair on your puppy look more cream to me as far as I can tell from the photos. I believe one of my rescued minis is silver beige. His coloring is so difficult to describe. He looks silver but with brown hues which are darkest on his ears. Whatever color your puppy ends up becoming, it will be fun to watch the transformation!


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## CharismaticMillie

I am surprised his face is not shaved. Did the breeder shave his face at 8 weeks? Shaving the face around 6-8 weeks is how a breeder can tell if a puppy will be brown, cafe or silver beige.


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## McKay

Can't speak with any authority about color, but he sure is cute! I'm equally curious about my Little Anderson. He was born dark brown and seems to be getting darker rather than lighter! I hear that you never know!!


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## outwest

Anderson looks pretty black in the picture! Do you have a recent picture of him? I guess I could hunt around.

From the pictures it looks like sam has a cream color, not a silver color with the brown. I vote Cafe au Lait, too. 

Have his face shaved and then you should know. If you prefer the fuzzy face (fuzzy faces get messy with food, though) it will grow out within a couple months. 

I am also a little surprised he came without a shaved face. The poodles breeders I know would never send a new puppy home without a shaved face. 

He is adorable! Cafe au Lait is a nice color and not many standards have it. If he is a Cafe au Lait, that would be very cool for you!


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## CharismaticMillie

rdelrigo said:


> Silver beige are also born brown and have liver colored points but the hair has a silver hue to it as it clears. The lighter areas of hair on your puppy look more cream to me as far as I can tell from the photos. I believe one of my rescued minis is silver beige. His coloring is so difficult to describe. He looks silver but with brown hues which are darkest on his ears. Whatever color your puppy ends up becoming, it will be fun to watch the transformation!



I disagree about silver beige having a silver appearance. A silver beige will clear to a light beige color with perhaps a slight brownish hue on the ears, especially when young. This is Shane - a very famous silver beige mini. The top photo is Shane. Alegria Poodles

Here is an aery silver beige mini. Home to top winning silver Scroll down to the eighth bitch. The bitch puppy in the photo is PB, Ch. Aery's A Bit Off Color. She is silver beige. 

This is Kai - another silver beige mini on this forum. He is still clearing. http://www.poodleforum.com/3-poodle-pictures/13414-kairos-kai-year-old-may-3rd.html


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## just poodling about

Thanks so much for your replies.
About his face - that was our fault as we asked the breeder not to shave his face, we wanted to enjoy his face longer for a bit before we decided what trim to go for at the salon. Also, the breeder clips her own poodles at home, whereas Sam will be going to the salon and we wanted to get him used to visiting there asap.
He is due a visit now but we are just deciding how best to clip him at the moment.

Cafe au lait seems to be the consensus so that sounds good to me - as mentioned, hopefully it will be clearer once he is trimmed down a bit, although we are unlikely to shave his face close, we will have it trimmed down shorted.

It will be really exciting to watch him change as he grows - and he certainly is growing really fast at the moment!


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## catsaqqara

He looks like he is most likely silver beige. I have a Cafe au lait and you can take a look at her color change here Flickr: catsaqqara's Photostream
Her true color is sometimes hard to capture but she looked like a normal chocolate puppy until about 8 months when she started to get white guard hairs and her hair started turning a nice caramel color. Now she has lost the caramel color and has a nice coffee w/cream color and the hair on her head actually got darker somehow.

These are at 8months and she has gotten a lot lighter but It wont let me upload more pics right now.


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## Jessie's Mom

i still don't know how to classify jessie's coloring, whether it is cafe au'laite or silver beige. however, she came to us @ 10 weeks with a shaved face and there was no indication - her face was dark as you can see by the pics below. i am going to try to post her baby pic, one @ 10 months and now. whatever the color is, now that it is completely cleared, it is very pretty...


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom - Jessie is brown. She is not at all a silver beige she is far too dark and a silver beige clears in the same manner as a silver. I'd say she is a faded brown just like Millie.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Jessie's Mom - Jessie is brown. She is not at all a silver beige she is far too dark and a silver beige clears in the same manner as a silver. I'd say she is a faded brown just like Millie.


cm, i totally agree that millie and jessie look very much alike, as far as coloring is concerned. however, why wouldn't you classify them cafe au'lait ?

not intending to hijack the thread; i think this is a good learning experience for all of us.


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> cm, i totally agree that millie and jessie look very much alike, as far as coloring is concerned. however, why wouldn't you classify them cafe au'lait ?
> 
> not intending to hijack the thread; i think this is a good learning experience for all of us.


Well, I still consider Millie to be a faded brown, but perhaps they would be classified as Cafe. Her sire's owner, who has been breeding browns for quite some time, said that she is a fading brown. To me, silver beige is such an obvious color to identify, but the line between faded brown and cafe is a very confusing one indeed!

I do notice a very different thing about her brown coat than some of the other faded browns I have seen. Some look very gray or silver in color and she is just a very light brown. It is drastically obvious when she is next to this one other brown who lives in my neighborhood. Interestingly, when Millie was a pup I was talking to her sire's owner and he said that his browns definitely do fade but don't silver out. I really had no idea what he was talking about, but I think I now know.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Well, I still consider Millie to be a faded brown, but perhaps they would be classified as Cafe. totally agree. jessie could appear to be a "light brown" at times, too. however, when her coat is longer, her color is deeper. Her sire's owner, who has been breeding browns for quite some time, said that she is a fading brown. To me, silver beige is such an obvious color to identify, but the line between faded brown and cafe is a very confusing one indeed!
> 
> I do notice a very different thing about her brown coat than some of the other faded browns I have seen. Some look very gray or silver in color and she is just a very light brown. It is drastically obvious when she is next to this one other brown who lives in my neighborhood. Interestingly, when Millie was a pup I was talking to her sire's owner and he said that his browns definitely do fade but don't silver out. I really had no idea what he was talking about, but I think I now know.


 i think that silver brown is different from our girls. when i viewed the links you posted, the silver beiges can look very silvery, depending on the light. jessie never looks silvery. she just looks lighter brown sometimes, depending on the lighting. 

so maybe that is the key, if in photos the lighting highlights a silver color, then the dog could be a silver beige. if the lighting highlights a beige or darker color, then cafe au'lait it is !


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> i think that silver brown is different from our girls. when i viewed the links you posted, the silver beiges can look very silvery, depending on the light. jessie never looks silvery. she just looks lighter brown sometimes, depending on the lighting.
> 
> so maybe that is the key, if in photos the lighting highlights a silver color, then the dog could be a silver beige. if the lighting highlights a beige or darker color, then cafe au'lait it is !


Hmm... I have to disagree still.

A "silvered out brown" is NOT a silver beige. A silver beige is more of a beige color. It is a brown that fades to a beige color in the manner of a silver. HENCE, a silver beige. It does not mean that the dog has a silver color to it. A brown poodle that has faded and now looks silver or gray, has silvered out. Such a dog is not silver beige or cafe. 

A silvered out brown is just that - a brown that has silvered. This is _less_ desirable than Cafe and less desirable than Silver beige. "Silvered out" is neither an attractive nor desirable color, IMO.

A silver beige does NOT have a silver appearance. It is a beige color with no presence of silver hairs.

Basically, a cafe is lighter than a brown and a silver beige is lighter than a cafe. "Silvering" of the coat with gray and silver is undesirable and is not cafe or silver beige. This happens when gray or silver hairs fill the coat.

The silver toned faded browns that I was referring to in my previous post were definitely neither cafe nor silver beige.


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## outwest

Here's an article someone wrote about Cafe au Lait and Brown:
POODLE COAT COLORS: BROWN & CAFE AU LAIT

The original posters puppy is so young to have anything other than dark brown coloring that he will definitely be something other than a faded brown.


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## CharismaticMillie

catsaqqara said:


> He looks like he is most likely silver beige. I have a Cafe au lait and you can take a look at her color change here Flickr: catsaqqara's Photostream
> Her true color is sometimes hard to capture but she looked like a normal chocolate puppy until about 8 months when she started to get white guard hairs and her hair started turning a nice caramel color. Now she has lost the caramel color and has a nice coffee w/cream color and the hair on her head actually got darker somehow.
> 
> These are at 8months and she has gotten a lot lighter but It wont let me upload more pics right now.


A cafe clears without having any guard hairs. If a brown poodle appears cafe due to lots of light hairs in the coat, that is not cafe. 

Anyway, do you have any photos of your dog once she cleared to cafe? She looks very, very brown in all of these posted!

ETA: NEVERMIND! WOW! Beautiful Cafe!!!!!!! _Definitely_ is cafe - I was looking at the puppy pictures, silly me!!!!!!! Your girl is absolutely stunning and is the perfect example of a beautiful cafe vs. a faded brown. I only wish my Millie looked like your girl!!!!!!    

She is actually a light cafe, right? Oh, I just love her! I love the way you groom her too.


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## Jessie's Mom

ChocolateMillie said:


> Hmm... I have to disagree still.
> 
> A "silvered out brown" is NOT a silver beige. A silver beige is more of a beige color. It is a brown that fades to a beige color in the manner of a silver. HENCE, a silver beige. It does not mean that the dog has a silver color to it. A brown poodle that has faded and now looks silver or gray, has silvered out. Such a dog is not silver beige or cafe.
> 
> A silvered out brown is just that - a brown that has silvered. This is _less_ desirable than Cafe and less desirable than Silver beige. "Silvered out" is neither an attractive nor desirable color, IMO.
> 
> A silver beige does NOT have a silver appearance. It is a beige color with no presence of silver hairs.
> 
> Basically, a cafe is lighter than a brown and a silver beige is lighter than a cafe. "Silvering" of the coat with gray and silver is undesirable and is not cafe or silver beige. This happens when gray or silver hairs fill the coat.
> 
> The silver toned faded browns that I was referring to in my previous post were definitely neither cafe nor silver beige.


i think i used the wrong wording. i've seen pics of silver brown and it is not a nice looking coat. i guess there is such a fine line between cafe and silver beige. so if we had to say what is the leading deciding indicator, what would you say it is?


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## CharismaticMillie

Jessie's Mom said:


> i think i used the wrong wording. i've seen pics of silver brown and it is not a nice looking coat. i guess there is such a fine line between cafe and silver beige. so if we had to say what is the leading deciding indicator, what would you say it is?


I'm not a breeder or anyone with experience with silver beige or cafe pups, but from what I have heard from other breeders and from photos that I have seen I actually think that the difference between a cafe vs. silver beige is pretty clear. Well, scratch that, there are varying levels of cafe and silver beige. I have seen some very light cafes that I almost would have called silver beige. Ha.

Anyway, a silver beige should have a very light face when shaved as a pup. Generally, from what I have heard, they lighter their ultimate color the sooner they begin to clear. I have also heard that a silver beige will clear like a silver, and a cafe will clear like a blue. If the fully cleared dog is so light that they almost look white/beige, that is obviously a silver beige!


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## CharismaticMillie

just poodling about said:


> Thanks so much for your replies.
> About his face - that was our fault as we asked the breeder not to shave his face, we wanted to enjoy his face longer for a bit before we decided what trim to go for at the salon. Also, the breeder clips her own poodles at home, whereas Sam will be going to the salon and we wanted to get him used to visiting there asap.
> He is due a visit now but we are just deciding how best to clip him at the moment.
> 
> Cafe au lait seems to be the consensus so that sounds good to me - as mentioned, hopefully it will be clearer once he is trimmed down a bit, although we are unlikely to shave his face close, we will have it trimmed down shorted.
> 
> It will be really exciting to watch him change as he grows - and he certainly is growing really fast at the moment!


IMO, he very well could be silver beige. I would go ahead and shave his face so that you can tell.  Sometimes the face hair lightens regardless, so I am having a hard time telling _how_ light the face is at the skin, because the facial hair when allowed to grow seems to be light in many browns I have seen. IE - Millie's facial hair was always lighter if it was able to grow for a few weeks, but, at the skin it was still brown. It really would be interesting to see! I think he could be really light under there. 

At 8 weeks, in an ideal situation, from what I have read, a silver beige will have the lightest face, a cafe a little bit lighter than the brown, and the browns the darkest face. Also, the sooner their overall color starts to lighten, the lighter they will be.

Now, if you part his hair, throughout his whole body, is there an overall lighter beige color at the skin? If so, he is likely silver beige.


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## Jessie's Mom

catsaqqara said:


> He looks like he is most likely silver beige. I have a Cafe au lait and you can take a look at her color change here Flickr: catsaqqara's Photostream
> Her true color is sometimes hard to capture but she looked like a normal chocolate puppy until about 8 months when she started to get white guard hairs and her hair started turning a nice caramel color. Now she has lost the caramel color and has a nice coffee w/cream color and the hair on her head actually got darker somehow.
> 
> These are at 8months and she has gotten a lot lighter but It wont let me upload more pics right now.


your girl is beautiful! and how she changed color sounds like what i went through with jessie. those guard hairs were horrible. never having owned and poodle before and having no idea about color change, i called her breeder when she started with the lighter hair on her tail and then the guard hairs lightened up. her color was kinda awkward for awhile, but now it is evened out and even i think it is pretty even though i'm disappointed it lightened up at all.


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## outwest

I found this old posting about cafe au lait and the puppy looks almost exactly like yours:

http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/2490-does-anyone-here-have-cafe-au-lait-standard-3.html

The general consensus on that thread is that the puppy was so light at such a young age it was a silver beige. [doesn't that pup look just like your pictures!?]


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## Jessie's Mom

outwest said:


> I found this old posting about cafe au lait and the puppy looks almost exactly like yours:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/2490-does-anyone-here-have-cafe-au-lait-standard-3.html
> 
> The general consensus on that thread is that the puppy was so light at such a young age it was a silver beige. [doesn't that pup look just like your pictures!?]


i remember that thread. thanks for posting. i think it explains it in a nutshell.


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## just poodling about

ChocolateMillie said:


> IMO, he very well could be silver beige. I would go ahead and shave his face so that you can tell.  Sometimes the face hair lightens regardless, so I am having a hard time telling _how_ light the face is at the skin, because the facial hair when allowed to grow seems to be light in many browns I have seen. IE - Millie's facial hair was always lighter if it was able to grow for a few weeks, but, at the skin it was still brown. It really would be interesting to see! I think he could be really light under there.
> 
> At 8 weeks, in an ideal situation, from what I have read, a silver beige will have the lightest face, a cafe a little bit lighter than the brown, and the browns the darkest face.  Also, the sooner their overall color starts to lighten, the lighter they will be.
> 
> Now, if you part his hair, throughout his whole body, is there an overall lighter beige color at the skin? If so, he is likely silver beige.


Thanks, that's really helpful. 
Yes - when I part his hair, the hair is already growing through a blonde/beige colour in many places such as his legs and tail and belly in particular. His back is still dark to the base at present.
Looks like a silver beige boy then! Is it quite an unusual colour? I haven't seen any before.


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## just poodling about

outwest said:


> I found this old posting about cafe au lait and the puppy looks almost exactly like yours:
> 
> http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle-talk/2490-does-anyone-here-have-cafe-au-lait-standard-3.html
> 
> The general consensus on that thread is that the puppy was so light at such a young age it was a silver beige. [doesn't that pup look just like your pictures!?]


Thanks for that - this puppy does look just like Sam! Especially for face colour.


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## CharismaticMillie

just poodling about said:


> Thanks, that's really helpful.
> Yes - when I part his hair, the hair is already growing through a blonde/beige colour in many places such as his legs and tail and belly in particular. His back is still dark to the base at present.
> Looks like a silver beige boy then! Is it quite an unusual colour? I haven't seen any before.


Yep, I'm no expert but my personal opinion is that he could be silver beige. I think SB is such a beautiful color. I do think it one of the less common colors, definitely.


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## catsaqqara

Thank you, I actually think Milly and Jessie are cafe because they look like Bambi did when she was one. 
Silver beige and Cafe look the same the difference being when they start to change. Silver beige starts at ~8 weeks old with the face and Cafe au lait starts at about 8 months though Bambi had a stripe of sparse white guard hairs down her back at 4 months. Cafe is said to clear at 2years old though Bambi seemed to clear at 3. It is impossible to tell if a puppy is Cafe because they look like regular browns.


1.5yrs- All sizes | Bambi | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

6 months, 8 months, 1yr, 2ys, 3rs


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## catsaqqara

Oh, I don't know if she is a light cafe, I think her head hair is pretty dark though, she doesn't have and even coloring but maybe she will even up when she gets older. 

I think faded brown or a what is called a bad brown is salt and peppered or silvered and when the brown color "fades" or gets lighter but retains brown pigment they are cafes as long as this starts to happen when they are 1. Bambi looks silvery in some pictures but she is hard to photograph, she doesn't have any gray but seems to have some white hairs.


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## CharismaticMillie

There are so many theories I just give up and call my girl a faded brown. She has faded, afterall!  She is so young, just under 18 months. It will be fun to see how light she is at 3. I only hope she looks as beautiful as Bambi!!!! 

OH, and re: the silvery browns, I agree, the "bad browns" or silvered out browns that I see appear gray/silver in any light. Cafes usually look nice and creamy with a tinge of brown in good light, maybe a little silvery if a flash hits them weird.


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## McKay

I will find a more recent pic of Anderson, but his color has not really changed from here. I'll try to find one taken outside where his brown shows better. when he is next to a black dog, it is quite obvious! also, he has dark brown points.


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## McKay

OK! Here is Little Anderson next to his little terrier buddy. Now it is easy to see that he is a brown boy. He is only 7 months old, who knows what color he will end up!

What an adventure!

McKay


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## Maura9900

What are guard hairs?

Edit: Should have done a search before asking! I just found a thread about it


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## Pamela

*color change*

I agree that your pup is probably a cafe aulait -beacuse of the rich brown color. Here are pictures of my Teddy when he was supposedly 2 (he was a rescue- but I think he may have been one because he didnt change until the following summer) and after he changed. the gang on here at the time thought he was silver beige. Your puppy is adorable!


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## Pamela

Pamela said:


> I agree that your pup is probably a cafe aulait -beacuse of the rich brown color. Here are pictures of my Teddy when he was supposedly 2 (he was a rescue- but I think he may have been one because he didnt change until the following summer) and after he changed. the gang on here at the time thought he was silver beige. Your puppy is adorable!


I wonder - can they stilll fade after they are two - can't seem to figure out Teddy's age - they said he was two when I rescued him but his color was sooo dark brown and then the next summer when I clipped him - [email protected] But now he has more dark brown markings and looks like he might change again! he was a rescue so maybe he is just not bred well. wish he would stay the silver he was in the second picture.


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## CharismaticMillie

Pamela said:


> I wonder - can they stilll fade after they are two - can't seem to figure out Teddy's age - they said he was two when I rescued him but his color was sooo dark brown and then the next summer when I clipped him - [email protected] But now he has more dark brown markings and looks like he might change again! he was a rescue so maybe he is just not bred well. wish he would stay the silver he was in the second picture.


To me Teddy looks like he silvered because he has much more of a silver look to his coat. Silver beige poodles don't look silver. Maybe it's just the photo.


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## Pamela

hmmmmmmm - don't know - he has more brown in him now though - will have to post a newer pic


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## Pamela

*Teddy' color*

Here is a newer pic of TeddyBear - don't know what he is! lol


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## CharismaticMillie

Pamela said:


> Here is a newer pic of TeddyBear - don't know what he is! lol


I still think he looks like your typical silvered out brown. Especially in this last picture you posted. Though, better, more natural lighting without a bright flash on the hair would be more telling.


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## Pamela

I have to find my camera and take a pic of him now - that last one was still a year ago. I am dissappointed that he is getting more brown hairs lol


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## Bella's Momma

Bella is supposed to be a silver beige, though her 'silvery' parts are really more of a creme, so who knows - would that mean Cafe Au Lait, if she stays like that? Her mom was Silver, her Dad brown. We were told she would end up a silver beige, but she sure looked like a solid brown for several months. Until wasn't until past age one, and nearly 1 1/2 that we really saw her coat changing. Now it gets a little lighter with each groom, though she still has several solid brown spots to go. 

You can see in the oldest pictures in  my album how dark she still was at 4 months, as compared to now. 

Someone told me that often breeders do not disclose when they expect a brown to change to something else. That is disappointing, and I'm sorry if that happened to you.


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## outwest

Browns all change color, don't they? If anyone knows of one that stayed dark solid brown after 2 years old, I'd sure like to see a pic.


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## Bella's Momma

Pamela said:


> I wonder - can they stilll fade after they are two -


Mine has continued to fade past age two, or did you mean start fading?



outwest said:


> Browns all change color, don't they? If anyone knows of one that stayed dark solid brown after 2 years old, I'd sure like to see a pic.


Someone on here had one...I forget who, but I've seen the photo. Anyone? Anyone? I can even totally picture the photo in my mind, but am forgetting who's pup it was.


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