# Dog Car Harnesses: 100% failure rate



## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

I started crating Lula again last week...
She seemed to be getting anxious at times with her harness n seatbelt. 


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Hahaha! I never doubted it at all... 

And I liked this quote... "The Virginia-based CPS would not disclose which harnesses the nonprofit tested out of fear even fewer people will secure their pets."

Well . . . ummmm . . if none of them work... what's the point of 'securing' yr dog at all??? :confused3:


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

we have a crate that we tie down in the back of the car. the reason to secure a dog is that in an accident they can escape, or bite a first responder who is trying to save your life.


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm glad this is being addressed, cause knowing what to do is a real quandry. Harnesses never made sense to me. If there's enough play to allow the dog to move at all, the poor thing is going to get cracked like a whip. And many if not most crates will fail, too. They are not designed for the purpose and won't withstand the stresses of a crash.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah, come on and show us the test results with crates please?!?!

Rebecca


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## frankgrimes (Nov 28, 2011)

Eek! So what's a Poodle mum to do?


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

I could see a crate over harnessing *which is what I meant by 'securing'*. 

But I agree with LE... in a bad accident, only proper, secure harnesses, specially designed for YOUR dog, might work. And they would have to fit as properly as human harnesses. 

Crates??? Better than a dime store harness maybe, but safe??? Who knows, eh?


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Ugh! We do so much traveling. The dogs are harnessed on the back seats and their crates are usually in the back of the car with the cats in them, lol. We will have to do a major rearrange of our car as we can't fit 4 cages in plus our luggage. I can see how they would get injured though and crates would be safer.


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

Can you put more than one dog in a crate? Sure, in a perfect world, everyone would have plenty of their own space, but I do remember being one of maybe 7-8 children in the back of a woody station wagon... (and I was an only child.) I put Spike and Fritz together in the 42 inch crate in the back of the car. My concern is really the dogs escaping the car in the event of broken glass, flying around, etc. Yes, a 42 inch crate is probably bigger than is necessary for one dog, but 2 36 inch ones do not fit in the back of the car.

If car manufacturers would build in dog safety crates, suited to the size and make of the car, that would be cool - I mean if a 12 year old and an obese person can sit in the same front seat, why can't 1/3 or 1/2 or 2/3 of the back seat converted to dog crating area be possible?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Maybe we we need to find a way to harness all our poodle people power to exert some pressure to make pet auto safety a priority of the auto manufacturers. Subaru must see the (monetary/altruistic) upside in doing something. 
A crash course on keeping your dog safe in the car - MSN Autos
Subaru, which has a decade-long partnership with the ASPCA and sponsors dealer-hosted pet adoptions, recently debuted a new series of commercials during the Super Bowl featuring a salesman who sells cars to dogs. Many Subaru dealers allow dogs to join their owners on test drives, Matias said.* Eventually, if a harness "makes the cut," the automaker will sell it as a Subaru-branded accessory.* But beyond the good public relations, Matias said the harness testing is "just calling attention to the issue" and is "bringing the level of humanity to research."

Some of us kicked this pet passenger safety concern around at the beginning of the year.
http://www.poodleforum.com/5-poodle...seatbelts-crates-boosters-etc.html#post298689

Has anyone come upon a group other than The Center for Pet Safety that is working on this in earnest? I know CPS has reached out for monetary support for their testing in the past. I suppose that's one way to maybe help. I remember how long it took to get seatbelts in cars, so I can well imagine our concerns about pet passenger safety lingering for some time to come. I wonder what pressure/influence all the show dog folks could bring to bear? Maybe breed clubs need to push the ball a ways on this? Again, just thinking out loud. This subject always grabs me. But the remedy always eludes me. :confused2:

A bit more of the same as Fozzie's Mom posted above.
Car Safety Restraints For Dogs Found Potentially Unsafe in Pilot Study from the Center for Pet Safety
Procedures for the testing of companion animal restraints: 
A total of 12 restraints from major brands within the pet product industry were purchased from online vendor/manufacturer websites and delivered by independent carrier (UPS, USPS,etc) to the test laboratory. The restraints were received in new, unused condition with intact packaging. The restraints were handled only by laboratory personnel. Out of an initial sampling of 12 brands, four harnesses were selected as a "control group". Selection of the control group was based on perceived strength of the materials and design, associated marketing materials that indicated testing had been completed by the manufacturer and the reputation of the manufacturer in the pet travel product marketplace – similar to the way the consumer would select a product for purchase. *Although not identified in the study, the control group harnesses are considered quality brands within the pet product industry and are widely marketed as safety devices for companion animal travel. *
"We have re-sampled these products and performed follow-up testing to confirm our initial findings," says Wolko. "While we did not test all brands of harnesses in our initial pilot study, our sampling was broad enough for us to gain better insight regarding the expected performance of these products when tested to Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 213 conditions. *Their safety is not guaranteed and the buyer should beware."*


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I put Lou in a big hard plastic crate on long trips
I'm lucky to have the largest back seat and leg room in a pickup truck  sorry I had to brag. LOL But seriously now I believe the plastic crate is the safest option for us, I lay/push the passenger seat back/against the side of the crate to hold the crate in place, because she gets car sick if it shakes or moves around.


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes I can. But the cats still need to have cages of their own. Lol. So one extra cage on back seat, anchored by seat belts obtaining two toy poodles. Have to do a trial run.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think it is a question of relative risks. A dog loose in the car is a potential distraction, is at danger of serious injury, may become a projectile and injure others, and is likely, if uninjured, to run from an accident and get lost or killed. A strong, well fitted harness reduces many of these risks, but adds in the potential for the dog to be injured by the harness itself. A secured crate probably reduces them further, but again is not completely risk free. When I looked into this, the only fully tested crates were the ones built to fit a specific car, and bolted to appropriate fixings. I took the combined weight of my two into consideration, and compromised on a canvas crate belted to the back seat - I very much doubt it would protect my dogs from a major crash, but I know from experience that it protects them (and me) in the case of the much more common emergency stops and rear end shunts. It has also helped them to settle down and sleept hrough most journeys - which allows me to concentrate on driving not dogs!

I absolutely agree that there need to be properly established standards for both harnesses and crates for pets in cars. At the moment any manufacturer claim their products are "tested" - a meaningless claim without proper validation of the test and the results.


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## The Opera Poodle (Dec 19, 2012)

I was broadsided five months ago. My Shasta was in the back loose like always. The first thing I saw when I came to was a police woman petting her over on the sidewalk. I bought the dogs my "lunchbox" car just for them (they hate the Volvo.) One of the big draws was the full air bags in the back. 

If she was in a crate she would have been slammed against a hard surface. Instead, she bounced off of marshmallows. 

It is a hard call for us dog lovers. My low speed city driving makes airbags the best choice. High speed? No good option. 


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

The Opera Poodle said:


> I was broadsided five months ago. My Shasta was in the back loose like always. The first thing I saw when I came to was a police woman petting her over on the sidewalk. I bought the dogs my "lunchbox" car just for them (they hate the Volvo.) One of the big draws was the full air bags in the back.
> 
> If she was in a crate she would have been slammed against a hard surface. Instead, she bounced off of marshmallows.
> 
> ...


My concern is that there won't be a police woman ready to grab the dog if he heads out the broken glass. For this reason alone, crating, or at least hooking a leash to the car seat tether point and clipping it to the regular collar, is possibly better than nothing... 

I also have a clear front pencil case with copies of all papers and a directive of what to do with my dog if I am unable to make decisions and the dog is injured or not. It is held to the crate with keychain rings.

Is it overkill? maybe. Is there a chance someone will have my dog put down over a broken leg because they did not know who to call? pretty slim. 

There is no good universal option at this point. WE have to go with seatbelts in the small car because the crate that will fit in the car (24") will not hold the poodle (who is 24 1/2 at the shoulder...) I can get the 36 inch crate in there, but have to stuff the dog in sideways through the door....


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

This issue is constantly in my mind. I take Tonka everywhere with me . . and always in the back seat of the car. To the dog park every other day, and on trips thru Canada in the Summer that could easily be 3000 km.

He loves the back seat, usually stretching out across the whole of it, and will travel comfortably for hours there. Getting out only reluctantly. 

A crate, even sideways, in a coupe, is out of the question. First of all there could be no access to that crate... and even if there was, it must be way less comfortable for him than the padding of the seat itself. And I can see nothing on any market yet that will harness him safely and comfortably. 

So... in the absence of any foolproof way of protecting him, I do nothing.


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## Liafast (Apr 9, 2011)

My dogs usually ride in a crate in the back of my SUV.. One of the most important things I put on them is their collars with their AKC CAR tags...it contains my vets phone #, my phone # and an emergency contact #. All my dogs are micro chipped but the collar tags are easy to see. I also put collars on my dogs when we have bad storms for the same reasons. None of my dogs wear collars full time.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

We drive a Subaru Forester, with a dog barrier between the back seat and the cargo area, which has just about enough room for both dogs. Sadly, I know it doesn't provide much protection for them, but at least they won't become flying projectiles in the passenger compartment, and it does keep them from interfering with the driver.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Some manufacturers _appear_ to be working toward some kind of meaningful solutions for pet auto safety. (A bit of sticker shock with the pricing reaching four figures!) This pricey crate would easily fit in my Subaru, but I don't know the veracity of the crash testing they've conducted. 
Variocage U.S. - Mim Variocage Dog Crate, Variocage Car Crash Safety Crate


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## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Chagall's mom said:


> Some manufacturers _appear_ to be working toward some kind of meaningful solutions for pet auto safety. (A bit of sticker shock with the pricing reaching four figures!) This pricey crate would easily fit in my Subaru, but I don't know the veracity of the crash testing they've conducted.
> Variocage U.S. - Mim Variocage Dog Crate, Variocage Car Crash Safety Crate


Wow, now that is some crate! I think it gives a hint about just how complex coming up with a solution that is effective in terms of form, function and cost is going to be. It's a hard problem!

We are driving to San Diego today, about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. This will be the longest ride Beau's ever been on. He hates the car, but my daughter will be in the back seat with him, so maybe he will settle and not whine and pant the entire time. I'm going to try giving him some Rescue Remedy. Wish me luck!


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## Countryboy (May 16, 2011)

Or we could all get ourselves some fancy new wheels, eh?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

LEUllman said:


> Wow, now that is some crate! I think it gives a hint about just how complex coming up with a solution that is effective in terms of form, function and cost is going to be. It's a hard problem!


Well, we managed to get a man on the moon!:biggrin: I think it's all about motivation. Surely the engineering ingenuity is out there somewhere! 



LEUllman said:


> We are driving to San Diego today, about 2-1/2 to 3 hours. This will be the longest ride Beau's ever been on. He hates the car, but my daughter will be in the back seat with him, so maybe he will settle and not whine and pant the entire time. I'm going to try giving him some Rescue Remedy. Wish me luck!


I do wish you luck, and peace en route!:clover::car: Friends of mine use Rescue Remedy for their dog with some success. I hope the same for you! Chagall LOVES car travel and enjoys having a "chauffeur." He's a great passenger and bless his heart, he says nothing about my failed attempts to parallel park. Safe travels, and have FUN!


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

One day maybe the people that design vehicles will put as much thought into how to safely secure pets in vechicles no matter what the size of the vehicle as they do on how many and what size cup holder there are.


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

Crumple zone
In a rear-end collision the cage will be compressed in a controlled manner to the same extent as the crumple zones of the car. This means that the rear seat back will not be pushed forward by the cage, minimizing the risk of damage to both passengers and dog. 

copied that from their website. While that sounds great, in theory, I happen to know that the crumple zone on a Subaru Outback Wagon (1996 version) was the ENTIRE back cargo area. I had a 3rd row aftermarket seat, and am grateful every day that my children were not in it when we rolled the car over about 10 years ago... 

I'd say if you are going to invest in this super crate over a standard crate you should know your vehicle's crumple zone. If I had thought the crumple zone was the rear cargo area, I'd have never even considered the 3rd row aftermarket seat... 

If you really want to know what your car will look like after a collision, visit a junkyard that has a few of yours, crashed...


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*sarahmurphy*: Wow! Glad you're still around and able to tell us about that HORRIFIC accident your family had! From what I just read regarding my Subaru's "Crumple Zone," I shouldn't put a dog (or crystal) in the cargo area, and I don't. My mpoo is seat-belted or crated in the rear passenger seat when we travel. Depends where/how far we're going.

Crumple Zones
Crumple zones on Subaru vehicles absorb the energy of crash to the crumple zone area and outer vehicle frame, while keeping the passengers safe from the dangerous impact energy. Inside the vehicle cabin, the steering wheel works the same way as the outer crumple zones. The collapsible design allows the steering wheel to absorb impact energy by controlled distortion, which helps prevent serious injury to the driver.


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

we are glad to be here - but our outback wagon was mistaken for a baja by the tow guys... all glass was broken - EXCEPT the rear passenger windows, so when they say the back seat is the safest place, they really mean it!


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## murphys (Mar 1, 2012)

From what I can tell, there is no optimal way to keep the pup safe in a car. We have tried both; first the crate in the back of the CR -V. 36" crate. Fritz is now 26 inches tall. Became a tighter fit, he struggled to see out the windows and I needed the storage room. He is now in a harness connected to the middle seatbelt in the back seat when we go places.. He can see out the windows and in the case of an accident he is as safe I can make him.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

Storm has grown too big for the harness I bought him a few months ago... I asked the sales person at the vet today, what I could do to secure him in the car... 

She suggested an attachment to the collar, which would then go into the seatbelt connection... I argued that in case of a crash, the loose end of the dog would go first, and his neck would be severed... Then she suggested a harness (the same kind I used to use), which I bought...

She told me she uses the attachment to the collar, because her dog in a Great Dane, and will be able to stay still in an incident, because he's so much heavier... :alberteinstein:

Dogs in Australia by law need to be restrained in a car... which must be to protect humans rather than the dogs...


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Lene said:


> She told me she uses the attachment to the collar, because her dog in a Great Dane, and will be able to stay still in an incident, because he's so much heavier...


Oh dear - I hope she doesn't apply the same logic to human passengers and wrap the seat belt round their necks...

I avoid having my dogs travel in the back of a hatch back because of the crumple zone issue - fortunately they are small enough to fit on laps of back seat passenger if there is not room for their crate, and they are now so used to car journeys being snooze time they fall asleep almost immediately. In fact Sophy so much prefers to be enclosed and covered up in the car that I wonder whether a soft cotton bag attached to the seat belt point may not be a good low tech solution for her!

Whoever comes up with an affordable, crash tested solution that can be scaled for dogs of different sizes will really hit the jackpot. Given how much the pet accessories industry is worth, this is one accessory that huge numbers of pet owners would be prepared to invest in.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Lene said:


> She told me she uses the attachment to the collar, because her dog in a Great Dane, and will be able to stay still in an incident, because he's so much heavier... :alberteinstein:


Good thing she was a VetMed and not a Physics major.

BaDaBing


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

Ok, for what this is worth and considering I don't trust crates any more than harnesses, I though I'd throw this out there. I'm familiar with French Ringsport and Schutshund, so my plans for my spoo include an agitation harness as a car harness. They are intended to take the weight and force of a large dog throwing himself forward without causing injury and without breaking and they can be used for years. Better than the cheap gunk sold as car harnesses. Google agitation harness and check out what they look like. Love the Sherpa lined breastplate.


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

Here's a photo I took off of Google Images to show what it looks like with the dog moving forward. 

I read an article about what to look for in a car harness and was thinking to myself the whole time that agitation harnesses more closely match the ideal characteristics than anything else you can buy. They use thick strong leather, metal buckles and rings, and a wide full coverage breastplate (the good ones). There are lots of manufacturers and variations in style, and from what I can tell they come in a broad range of sizes from an english mastiff to a mini bull terrier. You might not be able to find one for a small mini poodle or a toy, but it seems to be a better solution than most. They also make excellent walking harnesses and usually have a short handle on the back so they can do double duty.

Edit: Ha! There are a couple of the small manufacturers offering puppy/small terrier sizes and will do custom work, so minis can use them too.


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## Poodlemama99 (Feb 12, 2010)

Mine travel in crates in the back seat. I thread the seat belt through the crate to secure it. 


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi folks, I went to the site that did the testing and found out more information:

The Science of Pet Safety, Center for Pet Safety, Pet Safety Testing, Pet Product Testing, Crash Testing, Scientific Testing, Criteria, Pet Safety Advocate

Note that the testing was done on a "dummy" dog and they worked on products designed for LARGE dogs: 55-80 pounds. Sample breeds included Poodles. 

So, given what we know about Physics, yes, larger dogs have more mass, so they would be thrown with more force, although smaller lighter dogs are likely to go farther. It's possible a smaller dog might be safe given their lighter weight.


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## Searcher (Aug 7, 2009)

First let me say that I don't question that all harnesses tested failed. But they should also stand by the results & give the names of the harnesses tested. They lose the effectiveness of their point by being vague. Documenting what they did, how they tested & standing by their work is important for test results to be valid. It just becomes sensationalism otherwise.


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## Curls (May 14, 2013)

Searcher said:


> First let me say that I don't question that all harnesses tested failed. But they should also stand by the results & give the names of the harnesses tested. They lose the effectiveness of their point by being vague. Documenting what they did, how they tested & standing by their work is important for test results to be valid. It just becomes sensationalism otherwise.


I agree. I don't doubt their findings, but if they want to be taken seriously they must be transparent.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

You sure don't have to speak the language to get the picture! 




Maybe some encouraging signs of awareness and momentum to address this concern....

Safety Group?s Crash-Test Dogs Available for Product Testing
To improve the safety testing of restraints, harnesses and carriers, the Center for Pet Safety will offer its proprietary, instrumented and weighted crash test and static dog models for manufacturers’ evaluation of pet travel products.

"The test dogs are expensive yet necessary for manufacturers to gather data and evaluate the real-world, worst-case performance of their products,” said Lindsey Wolko, founder of the Center for Pet Safety.

Protecting Fido: New safety standards for dog car harnesses
“Across the board, the message is getting out,” Wolko says. “People need to pay more attention to the safety of their pets while riding in the car.”


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

Actually, they address this quite clearly on their site, and they do have a point. The issue should not be what manufacturer failed, it should be that *there are no standards at all*. That issue matters more. 

From their site: 
>>Pet product safety is a concern shared by consumers and manufacturers, and we understand why people want to know the brand names tested in the pilot study conducted by CPS. However, we are not yet in a position to reveal the names of individual products or brand names, and here’s why:

Our primary concern is NOT to attack individual manufacturers for selling well-intentioned products. If we share brands at this early stage in our work, we shift the focus away from what is truly needed: measurable, safe standards that manufacturers can follow for the benefit of consumers.

After these standards are in place, we can then work with manufacturers to guide them as they develop safe, tested products.

In other words, manufacturers are not ignoring safety standards. There simply are no existing standards in place. This is not the fault of the manufacturer. Pet product safety is an emerging issue, and the Center for Pet Safety was formed to address it.<<


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

sarahmurphy said:


> Crumple zone
> In a rear-end collision the cage will be compressed in a controlled manner to the same extent as the crumple zones of the car. This means that the rear seat back will not be pushed forward by the cage, minimizing the risk of damage to both passengers and dog. .......
> 
> If you really want to know what your car will look like after a collision, visit a junkyard that has a few of yours, crashed...


Or you can look on your model vehicle with crumple zone in the search. 

I have never know quite what to do with my Tiki spoo. He has refused all safety harnesses, so I finally just put him in the back seat. Fortunately I am now seeing from our crumple zones that that is the safest place. But he still could be smashed forward through the two front seats in to the front. Wish I for sure knew what to do to keep him both safe and comfortable.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

The best way to protect our pets, is to drive safely... Keep 2-3 seconds of distance to the car in front (I probably do more than 5 seconds)... Watch what's up ahead (don't just look at the car in front of you), behind you and beside you... Use your mirrors, when you merge (some people just seem to close their eyes and hope for the best)...

I have been driving for 45 years... I've had 2 accidents, both of which I could see coming and brace for them (none of them were my fault)... The first one was 2 cars coming down the ramp, speeding up, and not noticing that the traffic had stopped up ahead... One of the cars ran into the side door of my car, when they lost control, trying to stop... The other one was at a roundabout... I was nearly through, when a car didn't give way, and just continued... I tried to speed up to avoid a collision, but was too late... The driver said she didn't notice the roundabout... 

When I was young I was riding motor bikes, which gives you a whole new awareness of what's going on.. I'm still using those skills... - as in... Never take for granted that others have seen you..


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Lene said:


> The best way to protect our pets, is to drive safely... Keep 2-3 seconds of distance to the car in front (I probably do more than 5 seconds)... Watch what's up ahead (don't just look at the car in front of you), behind you and beside you... Use your mirrors, when you merge (some people just seem to close their eyes and hope for the best)...
> 
> *I have been driving for 45 years... I've had 2 accidents, both of which I could see coming and brace for them (none of them were my fault)*... The first one was 2 cars coming down the ramp, speeding up, and not noticing that the traffic had stopped up ahead... One of the cars ran into the side door of my car, when they lost control, trying to stop... The other one was at a roundabout... I was nearly through, when a car didn't give way, and just continued... I tried to speed up to avoid a collision, but was too late... The driver said she didn't notice the roundabout...
> 
> When I was young I was riding motor bikes, which gives you a whole new awareness of what's going on.. I'm still using those skills... - as in... Never take for granted that others have seen you..


Lucky you. I've been driving 35 years and have been rear ended 22 times. 20 of them while I was already stopped at a stop sign or stop light waiting for my turn to go. The other two were panic stops on the highway where the guy behind me didn't panic soon enough. I won't even tell you about the motorcycle accidents. Just so you know, being in a coma isn't that restful. Oy


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## Siskojan (Mar 13, 2011)

My Mazda 6 Sport wagon is a fair size but cannot accommodate a Sisko sized crate and any luggage. He rides on the back seat and we have him tethered to a fastened seatbelt so that he couldn't get away from the car if something happened but it absolutely isn't doing anything for his safety. 

Trouble is you don't have to be in an accident, just a fast brake even at slow speed is enough to send them flying.


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## Not 2 Late (Mar 10, 2013)

sarahmurphy said:


> If car manufacturers would build in dog safety crates, suited to the size and make of the car, that would be cool - I mean if a 12 year old and an obese person can sit in the same front seat, why can't 1/3 or 1/2 or 2/3 of the back seat converted to dog crating area be possible?


You make way too much sense. I bet the answer is a simple 5 letter word MONEY. Car manufacturers have to realize a profit potential. Not enough demand to justify the application.


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

The best way to keep your dog from being hurt in an accident is not to have him in the car when youre in an accident.

When I chose a doggie daycare, I made the mistake of choosing one close to work. Thats fun because I get to drive to work and back with my poodle in the car. But if I had chosen one close to home, he would log roughly 90% fewer miles in the car, reducing his chance of being in an accident by about 90%.

Now I'm looking to change daycares.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Chagall's mom said:


> You sure don't have to speak the language to get the picture!
> Crash Test... cani in auto in sicurezza - YouTube
> Maybe some encouraging signs of awareness and momentum to address this concern....


This video is one I was searching for to post here thanks Chagalls Mom. When I was first saw this video I was TERRIFIED, there is no way for us to keep our dogs 100% safe in a vehicle, at least thats what I personally gathered from this video...not to mention the danger a 65lb animal can be to the DRIVER in an accident =[

After a pretty horrific accident last year involving a well known obedience woman who passed away because of the accident and lost one of her dogs (he ran out of the car after the accident because he was the only not crated =[ ) I decided crates were the best option. I drive a 2009 Jeep Liberty, I can fit a 400 and a 200 side by side in the back which are plenty big for when I travel with my dogs. I had my dad rig me up a set of ratchet straps around the crates as well as making me a board to lay down on the floor which they are securely attached too with yet more straps...I couldn't imagine losing one of my animals in an accident and thats the reason I drive so cautiously whenever they're in my vehicle =\ 
I'd love to use harnesses...it makes me stupid nervous to think about getting rear ended and my dogs being trapped in the back...but the knowledge that they won't be able to just run out of my vehicle in the event of an accident gives me a LITTLE peace of mind


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Jacamar said:


> The best way to keep your dog from being hurt in an accident is not to have him in the car when youre in an accident.


While I understand where you're coming from with this...that just isn't feasible for most people, especially people who show or do performance events. We must travel sometimes 100's of miles for one of these events and we can't exactly walk them there.



> Defensive Driving : Is driving to prevent accidents, in spite of the incorrect actions of others and adverse conditions


^was the first thing I was taught in drivers education, we must be prepared for anything and everything when behind the wheel...and that means being cognizant of the situations you're in. We could post the dangers of ANYONE being in a vehicle not just dogs (I mentioned the make and model of my vehicle...if you look it up on the safety websites you'll find it scores pretty low, but because I'm a cautious/reactive driver I've never been in a life altering accident...yet) but we all risk it everyday when we get behind the wheel because in our country individualized motor vehicle transportation is what we've been dealt (we aren't as fortunate as some European countries that are able to travel daily on bikes)


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## Pamela (Sep 9, 2008)

Curls said:


> Here's a photo I took off of Google Images to show what it looks like with the dog moving forward.
> 
> I read an article about what to look for in a car harness and was thinking to myself the whole time that agitation harnesses more closely match the ideal characteristics than anything else you can buy. They use thick strong leather, metal buckles and rings, and a wide full coverage breastplate (the good ones). There are lots of manufacturers and variations in style, and from what I can tell they come in a broad range of sizes from an english mastiff to a mini bull terrier. You might not be able to find one for a small mini poodle or a toy, but it seems to be a better solution than most. They also make excellent walking harnesses and usually have a short handle on the back so they can do double duty.
> 
> Edit: Ha! There are a couple of the small manufacturers offering puppy/small terrier sizes and will do custom work, so minis can use them too.


hmmm that looks just like the harness I bought Ginger only hers is padded? does that mean hers is safe?


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

*You'd be surprised*



sarahmurphy said:


> I mean if a 12 year old and an obese person can sit in the same front seat, why can't 1/3 or 1/2 or 2/3 of the back seat converted to dog crating area be possible?


Actually, as a short person I can tell you I am at significantly more risk for injury in most cars both as a driver and front seat passenger. From air bags, from the steering wheel, heck even the seat belt is usually not designed to safely fit me or to adjust to fit me without after market additions.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

For the toy Poodles - 

Sleepypod® Safety


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

Ciscley said:


> Actually, as a short person I can tell you I am at significantly more risk for injury in most cars both as a driver and front seat passenger. From air bags, from the steering wheel, heck even the seat belt is usually not designed to safely fit me or to adjust to fit me without after market additions.


My sister in law died in small not major car crash on icy road s. Vehicle hit passenger side (passenger unhurt) but her neck was broken by airbag. She is short petite and was leaning forward to see though snow storm.

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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> For the toy Poodles -
> 
> Sleepypod® Safety


tp: please start a new thread with this info - as long as the mods don't think it's advertising. some who could be interested may end up not reading the whole of the original thread and could miss it.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> tp: please start a new thread with this info - as long as the mods don't think it's advertising. some who could be interested may end up not reading the whole of the original thread and could miss it.


Sure - I hope that by now the mods realize that I'm not selling anything - just love to share good purchases, and hope that we can all help each other avoid misguided purchases!


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

*@ItzaClip. *So sorry for your family's loss.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

I keep emergency instructions with me in the car at all times in case I am in an accident and unresponsive. One in my visor, one in my middle console, one in my glove department and one in my wallet right behind my ID. It states both my dogs names and breeds. Who to contact in case of an emergency. Their vets info, and the emergency vets info. My dogs go almost everywhere with me and are in my car 99% of the time. They are also microchipped. The company that sells the ultra expensive crates also sell safety harnesses that they claim passed the tests that US harnesses failed. They are pretty expensive too, but much more affordable then the crates. The way I look at it, if its going to truly save my dogs lives then its worth the price. Unfortunately many people can't afford 1500 for a crate. I think car manufacturers should have these as an add on option for brand new vehicles like they do for sunroofs and upgraded stereos and tinted windows and all the other bells and whistles you can have added when purchasing your new vehicle. That way it's just added into the price of the car and it would barely raise your monthly car payment if you finance it.


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## pgr8dnlvr (Aug 7, 2011)

Hunny, do you have a link to the $1500 crates that passed crash tests? I wonder if you would have to add bolts to your cars frame to attatch high end crates like that to the vehicle... Hmmm

Rebecca


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

The link is further up this thread.. 


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

pgr8dnlvr said:


> Hunny, do you have a link to the $1500 crates that passed crash tests? I wonder if you would have to add bolts to your cars frame to attatch high end crates like that to the vehicle... Hmmm
> 
> Rebecca


Maybe this is this is what she's referring to? I posted it in the thread earlier on.
Variocage U.S. - Mim Variocage Dog Crate, Variocage Car Crash Safety Crate


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thank you Chagall! I was in a hurry and didn't have time to zoom up the thread to find it at that moment to repost think link. Lol


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## CjTitus (Jan 25, 2013)

This has always been a problem for me. I have shown and now trial dogs for almost 40 years now, most of the time using heavy metal and the old heavy plastic crates, we always modified our vehicles and attached the crates to plywood and attached that to the vehicle. I still have two of the 200+ size plastic crates in my house, the kind you could stand on which no one makes anymore, I know I have looked for my t-poo. Anyway I have this site bookmarked and seriously thinking of coming up with the money for it. Not cheap. Variocage U.S. - Mim Variocage Dog Crate, Variocage Car Crash Safety Crate

I have just given up using a harness for my boy as it creeps up on his neck and starts choking him, and the ones with just straps I can just image would cause a crushing of the ribs or neck.


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## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

I know this is an old thread that keeps coming back.. sry!!

What is getting me confused right now with this, smaller poodles, the toys and small mini's have a completely different harness selection and crate selection to larger mini's up to the largest standards.

I have settled on getting a standard quite some time ago, as it suits me and my partner even better, I cant and will never drive, but travel by train a ton, my partner is going to learn to drive so he will have a crate/harness/something for in the car (altho my dog will stay with me, if i go anywhere he comes to, but for when we all can go together!) 

A large dog would need a large crate, but most crates may not be large enough unless they are those wire square ones, which most likely will have to go into the boot area of the car (and least safe area) or a harness that could attach him to the back seats.
I am pondering if a material crate would be better, it would be more flexable then a plastic crate, and more comfortable then a metal, allowing movement with the car should anything happen. being easier to move it might be able to go on the back seat of the car, and have the seat belt attached (if it has no attachments then I will attach it myself using heavy duty stuff!)
I have only seen video's on a small plastic cat carrier, the expesive, toy size only carrier (the good one mentioned above) and harnesses, so I wonder how the material ones match up?

we do plan to have children too, so we will have to find something that will work with a baby seat ect in the car too.
(if we have to then a grate between the boot and the back seats, as well as whatever crate/harness is used, my dog would have to be in the boot then.

Nothing is ever simple is it!


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

If by, "material crate", you mean one made of some type of fabric, I think that would be completely worthless in an accident. Have you seen footage of how a "sturdy" plastic crate disintegrates in crash tests? 

It seems like more and more serious attempts at dog safety are coming to market, but they still have a long ways to go. Hopefully we'll see some revolutionary things soon.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jacamar said:


> If by, "material crate", you mean one made of some type of fabric, I think that would be completely worthless in an accident. Have you seen footage of how a "sturdy" plastic crate disintegrates in crash tests?
> 
> It seems like more and more serious attempts at dog safety are coming to market, but they still have a long ways to go. Hopefully we'll see some revolutionary things soon.


In light of the fact that all the sleepy pod crates are soft fabric and crash tested well, I think that if I had a large dog I would choose a soft crate that could be seat belted in. Think about it - in the event of a crash, the dog is going to be thrown hard against the sides of whatever it is in - would it not be best to be thrown against fabric then metal or hard plastic? Of course it must be held in place by a seatbelt, or the dog would just get bashed into the interior of the car....


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## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

Jacamar: The cloth ones are the ones I am talking about, in a crash they would not splinter and disintergrate like a rigid plastic one, as they would allow for some movement whilst staying in shape. 
I would of course make sure it is securely in place with a seat belt.
I hope that some rules are set down and the market will soon have some real save options.

tiny poodles:that is just what I was thinking, I might even adapt my one to be more similar to the sleepy pod, I am good at sewing so I can make a clip for the collar inside the crate, and extra loops for it to attach to the seat belt to make it extra safe. 
If the sleepy pod came in standard poodle sizes then I would pay for one to come to the uk!


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## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

I hear ya! I have a large standard and there is no crate or pod Ive seen that will fit in the back seat and be big enough to be comfortable too.
Life would be easier with a smaller dog but we love our big baby.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Vanilla-Yazoo said:


> Jacamar: The cloth ones are the ones I am talking about, in a crash they would not splinter and disintergrate like a rigid plastic one, as they would allow for some movement whilst staying in shape.
> I would of course make sure it is securely in place with a seat belt.
> I hope that some rules are set down and the market will soon have some real save options.
> 
> ...


Oh, not sure that I would clip the dog to a collar inside the crate - maybe a harness, but not a collar....


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Tiny Poodles said:


> In light of the fact that all the sleepy pod crates are soft fabric and crash tested well, I think that if I had a large dog I would choose a soft crate that could be seat belted in. Think about it - in the event of a crash, the dog is going to be thrown hard against the sides of whatever it is in - would it not be best to be thrown against fabric then metal or hard plastic? Of course it must be held in place by a seatbelt, or the dog would just get bashed into the interior of the car....


The Sleepypod crates are engineered for crashes and crash-tested. I thought VY was talking about a typical fabric crate. If there is a crash tested fabric crate for spoos I would consider it but I dont know of one. I think it would be very hard to engineer a fabric crate that could stand up to a standard poodle's weight during a crash, which is probably why Sleepypod only makes their product for small dogs.

I also agree that a hard crate does not seem like a good solution, even if it is hard enough not to break. Seems to me there is little difference between a dog hitting the front of a crate and a person hitting a dashboard. I tried putting Panda in a crate in the backseat for awhile, but went back to my crash-tested harness. I dont think thats a good solution either. At this point, there is no good solution. 

I recently changed doggie daycares, from one right next to where I work, to one near where I live. As a result, Panda logs a small fraction of the miles in the car he used to, so I have cut his odds of being hurt in a car accident by over 90%.


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Jacamar said:


> I tried putting Panda in a crate in the backseat for awhile, but went back to my crash-tested harness. I dont think thats a good solution either. At this point, there is no good solution.


Same here! So, until a better option comes along, Chagall sits in the hammock-covered rear seat wearing a "tested" harness that I hope will not choke/strangle him or cause other horrible injury were he to be an accident. I am just in a place where, for now and subject to change, I think this is the safer of the not-yet-nearly-safe-enough alternatives. I also find value in having him restrained to keep him from being a distraction when I drive. (He is such a lap dog!) :car: 

p.s. Special thanks to *lily cd re* for the hammock suggestion. I got one that unzips so it's still convenient when I have rear seat passengers.


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## Ciscley (Jul 16, 2013)

*sigh* My husband was just in an accident last night that totalled the Mini. He's fine (just air bag burns) but after I heard he was okay, all I could think was what if the dog had been in his car. Have to make this a priority again.


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Chagall's mom said:


> Same here! So, until a better option comes along, Chagall sits in the hammock-covered rear seat wearing a "tested" harness that I hope will not choke/strangle him or cause other horrible injury were he to be an accident. I am just in a place where, for now and subject to change, I think this is the safer of the not-yet-nearly-safe-enough alternatives. I also find value in having him restrained to keep him from being a distraction when I drive. (He is such a lap dog!) :car:
> 
> p.s. Special thanks to *lily cd re* for the hammock suggestion. I got one that unzips so it's still convenient when I have rear seat passengers.


I have a hammock too! Since Panda is harnessed in, it serves no purpose other than to keep my cloth seats clean, but thats reason enough to use it. 










I used to take Panda with me whenever I went out to a drive-thru or something like that. After researching safety and seeing the crash test videos, etc. now I leave him home. :sad: My compromise was to buy a really nice web/security cam so I can check in on my phone and see live streaming video of my boy any time I want. op:


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

Ciscley said:


> *sigh* My husband was just in an accident last night that totalled the Mini. He's fine (just air bag burns) but after I heard he was okay, all I could think was what if the dog had been in his car. Have to make this a priority again.


Im glad he's ok!


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Ciscley said:


> *sigh* My husband was just in an accident last night that totalled the Mini. He's fine (just air bag burns) but after I heard he was okay, all I could think was what if the dog had been in his car. Have to make this a priority again.


Ouch. Sorry about the wreck and the totaled Mini. Glad your hubby is ok though

Rick


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## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Oh, not sure that I would clip the dog to a collar inside the crate - maybe a harness, but not a collar....


I ment a harness, used inside a cloth crate, however I do like the look of the car hammocks, but would it still work in the boot or using 1 seat/2seats of the back of the car?

If this is available in the uk, I would get one of these harnesses I think, paired with either of the above options. however I imagine this harness to be very expensive so ideally I would want it to last a long time and fit as he grows. I dont know what size a standard male would need, so if anyone can provide a measurement that should fit (allowing some adjustment either way) that would be fantastic.
I like to get as much of this in advance, so when it comes to getting my dog I have it all ready for him.

Ciscley: I am really sorry to hear about the accident! glad your husband is ok x


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## Jacamar (Jun 2, 2012)

If youre getting your spoo young, like at 8 weeks, there is no way a harness will fit him then and still fit when he's grown. You might want to look for a used one, as Im sure lots of people buy them and then their pup outgrows them. Panda's crash-tested harness is a Canine Friendly brand. They are typically around $100 but I see them on Amazon right now for $78. He is full grown, 49 pounds, and wears a medium. That puts him a few pounds over the advised weight for a Medium, but I dont think a large would fit properly.


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## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

I would be getting him young, I have an air travel recommended crate for whilst he is a puppy but it is not big enough for him as an adult (for when I collect him ect) I would ideally like to start using the harness at 6-8 months. most of the time he would be traveling with me on public transport tho as I am not able to drive. I will also get the material crate in adult size but will use the harness and the crate, just for extra protection.

I dont know if i would be able to get that brand over here in the uk, so I would rather just order a new one direct from the company so I know its the right thing 
the breeder I am getting my boy from tend to breed larger size spoo's so I think the large might work out better, I can start out on its tightest when he is smaller and adjust it as he grows into it


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Just spotted this. Looks like the Center for Pet Safety is gaining traction. :car:

Ruff Rider Roadie - Canine Vehicle Restraint

*PASSED Crash Testing using
Center for Pet Safety Preliminary Test Criteria*
Restrain your dogs……for their safety and yours! 

Ruff Rider’s only product is the Roadie® travel restraint. Invented by Carl Goldberg, a dog owner, after his pet was ejected through the front windshield in a minor collision, the design is so unique it was awarded three (3) patents. Over the past 20 years Roadie has helped protect many dogs during vehicle accidents and also reduced the chance of injury to other occupants.

We were excited to learn of the founding of the Center for Pet Safety (The Science of Pet Safety, Pet Product Testing, Crash Testing, Scientific Testing, Criteria, Pet Safety Advocate, PetSafety), a non-profit organization dedicated to establishing testing and manufacturing standards for pet products, including safety harnesses.

CPS tests with MGA Research (MGA Research), an internationally-recognized testing firm, to collect the data needed to create performance standards for both dynamic and static testing of canine travel harnesses. We recently contracted with MGA Research to conduct dynamic crash testing on our Roadie harnesses using the preliminary test criteria that CPS references for a “typical” 30 mph vehicle crash.

The videos above show our harnesses during dynamic testing using the CPS crash test dogs weighing 23, 43 and 72 pounds. These new state-of-the art dogs may look like stuffed toys, but they contain sophisticated sensors that monitor impact and load data!

The videos document the kind of forces your dog is subjected to in only a 30 mph collision – anywhere from 23 G’s to over 58 G’s, depending on the weight of the dog! For a 23 pound dog, the impact causes them to accelerate at 23 times the load of gravity – they become almost 1300 pounds of mass flying forward in an accident. If not properly restrained, they can be severely injured and can also injure other occupants in the vehicle.

All of the Roadie harnesses tested successfully passed the preliminary test criteria for both dynamic and static load limits. We were pleased that we could validate the design and construction of Roadies and appreciate the use of the CPS test dogs to complete our testing.

The videos above depict the violent action and events that actually occur in a vehicle crash and reinforce why all dogs should be restrained for travel…..just like humans.

"AAA notes that unrestrained pets cause more than 30,000 accidents annually."

Made in USA – using U.S. and imported materials


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