# Protein Levels in Food



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

The pet food industry is such an evolving industry with all the different kinds of foods, different proteins, dry, canned, raw, dehydrated, as well as high protein, low protein, grain free, organic, etc. It really makes your head spin and we have all been involved in many of the discussions here, too.

I would be interested in hearing from those of you who are breeders, vets, or involved in animal nutrition regarding the protein levels in food for dogs. I know many people have opinions, based on what they have heard or been told, but I would love to hear from practitioners or breeders here on PF with the nutritional knowledge and/or experience regarding high protein foods. I have heard from one breeder and a vet both telling me that high protein is not good for dogs, etc., and a middle protein is preferable; but I have also read that it depends on the type of protein, health of dog, etc., (current studies). 

Bottom line, what is the thinking regarding best % protein for our pets?

Thanks.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'm not a practitioner but I'll tell you what I think anyhow. (I always do) lol. 

I have done a fair amount, not a huge amount of research regarding nutrition for dogs. I've read some of the more recent studies about protein, especially where it concerns older dogs, even older dogs with kidney issues. And the latest findings are that plenty of protein is what dogs need, being that they're designed as carnivores. Even studies taking dogs with kidney disease, high protein didn't cause them trouble, as was the school of thought and on the contrary actually helped rather than hindered. 

I believe that dogs need protein and plenty of it to build strong muscles and bones...to run their systems the best. (unless there is some specific medical reason to limit it that I don't know about) Being carnivores means plenty of protein. I always look for high amounts of quality protein, a variety of sources along with other important ingredients.

Here's an informative article

DogAware.com Kidney Disease: Is a Low-Protein Diet Desirable or Necessary?

Here's another informative nutritional site I like very much...run by an animal nutritionist.

The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?


----------



## Vanilla-Yazoo (Jun 2, 2013)

I have done a lot of looking into a raw diet, which you would think would be 'high' protein, but its about 70ish % moisture, and about 20ish% protein in minced meat (ofc some are higher then other)
As thats the diet they would have originated from, altho not as regimented as the raw, and spread out over many meals.

I am hoping to give raw at a later date, but for the mean time I am using a hypo allergenic, low grain (grain free after puppy bags) kibble and cereal free 75% meat wet trays (5% rice) as I feel this will offer a good amount of food and some variety from the wet.

I am only a pet owner, and this is research for 'my' first dog, I have lived with dogs most my life, and my Billy is coming home on Thursday.
I am not trained as a nutritionist, vet or anything else like that.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Yes, that's what I have read, too, and I have spent more hours researching Sunny's food than I could have ever imagined. That said, I would love to hear what others who may be in the field say. There are lots of progressive, holistic dog nutrition companies, and sites who all believe that more protein is better. Just wondering if there is anyone here with different conclusions, etc., since that is definitely still out there, too!


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I thought moisture content doesn't count when calculating nutrient content, rather protein, carbohydrates, and fats. It's the ratio of those three components that determines whether a diet is high or low protein. Given that dogs on a diet of prey animals would eat primarily meat, the largest proportion of their calories, by far, would come from protein sources, making it high protein, wouldn't it? They'd get a lot of fiber and moisture by weight, but the actual nutrients would come from protein. Am I missing something?


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Found this on Dog Food Advisor: I find this very confusing. Why don't they just do the computation on the bag for you????

EXERPT: To calculate the protein level of a food on a dry matter basis (the actual amount of protein) you want to do the following:

1) Subtract the % moisture listed on the package from 100% – this is the % dry matter.
2) Divide the as fed protein percentage found on the package by the % dry matter.
3) Multiply this number calculated in step 2 by 100% to get the actual level of protein in the food. 

You’ll notice that the more moisture the food contains, the greater the actual level of protein in the food is in comparison to what’s stated on the packaging.

Adding vegetables to the food would decrease the level of protein, however, I’m not certain if you could add enough to get the protein where you need it to be without throwing off the nutritional balance of the food. No more than 20% of the diet should be unbalanced extras.


----------



## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

Animals fed a raw diet of meat raw meaty bones and organ are not eating a high protein diet. Most of the diet is moisture (a good thing) and the protein ( all meat) is at about 20%. 
Lots of high protein kibbles have low quality protein (plant based) and that's a problem for dogs which are opportunistic feeding carnivores. They can handle some veggies, but it's really not necessary. 
A properly balanced Raw diet is more nutrient dense so they see utilizing more of the species appropriate proteins along with bone and fat. 
I'm not a vet, nor a breeder, just a nerdy read a lot raw feeding dog and cat mama.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Maybe my dogs have too much protein. Maybe that's why they're so cotton pickin energetic. lol. I think I need to slow Matisse down. You wouldn't believe how fast he can zoom...he's like greased lightening.... and how he can turn on a dime, darting this way and that. His reflexes are unbelievable. Their coats and eyes are shiny and they're quite muscular for such little pip squeaks. If I lower their protein, do you think they won't be such pains in the arses? lol. I remember having to cut back on the oats with my Arabian horses. They were such easy keepers and they needed to be calmed down a little bit. It worked. lol.


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Good theory Poodlebeguiled. I would have a problem as Swizzle only eats 2 pounds a week! ,hard to cut back on almost nothing.


----------



## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Interesting response from Champion Foods (I sent an email to Champion Foods since Sunny has been on Orijen dehydrated and is on Acana):

Thank you for taking the time to write to us.





I would suggest looking at the guaranteed analysis of the diets. The nutrient content of a diet always equals 100%, so when one goes up (e.g. moisture) then the others go down (protein, fat) as it is based on proportions and not absolute values. When the water is added it dilutes the product to a protein concentration of 13 or 15%, but does not affect the amount and quality of the protein your dog is receiving. 




I hope that I have been helpful and please contact us with any additional questions that you may have.




Kind regards,



Diana

Customer Care

Champion Petfoods LP


----------



## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Steve Brown, in Unlocking the Canine Ancestral Diet, says "49% of the calories in the ancestral diet were from protein, primarily from fresh animal sources. ...This protein level exceeds the levels found in all modern commercial dog foods and all of the typical homemade diets I've analyzed." 

Also, "44% of the calories in the canine ancestral diet were from a wide variety of fats." There's considerable discussion about the difference in types of fats from wild animals and modern, feedlot fed farm animals.

And "..only 6% of the calories consumed by the ancestral dog were provided by carbohydrates, primarily from fruit, grasses, and vegetables. This is substantially below what the typical modern dog consumes--in fact dogs do not even require carbohydrates if they have enough protein available to them." 

He isn't figuring the moisture content of food as a percentage of the total diet, just, for the macronutrients, protein, fats, and carbohydrates. It's an interesting book, and I've based my raw feeding regimen on his suggestions.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

With dry food, my personal preference is to feed a moderately high protein diet with plenty of MEAT based protein as opposed to PLANT based protein. I prefer protein levels between 26% and 33%. (For example, I would tend to prefer a food like Acana over a food like Orijen). For a pregnant bitch, 30/20 (protein/fat) is ideal and I did choose a food for Dharma based on that.

The protein content in a raw diet is of course going to be on the higher end, usually higher than above, but because it is in a more natural, moisture inclusive form I feel perfectly comfortable feeding that higher amount of protein in that instance.


----------



## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Whoops! Posted in wrong thread so deleted!


----------

