# What the vet said...



## Ainsley (Apr 22, 2013)

Our vet is NOT a fan of raw bones for dogs. We found that out after giving our lab one and her ending up spending the night AT the vets house and days in the clinic for 3 days. It was from a very reputable butcher, 100% raw and she had them MANY times before without vets knowledge (didn't think it was an issue), but that one was contaminated with something that made her SUPER sick. She got diabetes later in life and the vet suspects that could have actually started her on the path, but no proof since we didn't test her until it was pretty far gone.


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

Yes, my experience with several vets is that they do not recommend raw feeding at ALL. One vet said it was because bone fragments can lodge in the gut and remain there for weeks before becoming a problem; my current vet said the dogs' nutritional needs are rarely met in his experience, and he's seen dogs' teeth cracked and broken from the bones. A third vet I spoke to said that raw feeding means e. Coli and other bacterias are present both on the dog, in your house and in your yard ...she said it's like rolling a raw chicken around your house. You might not get sick, but those germs are real. Sooooo... I have fed our dogs raw and they loved it, but I'm kind of on the fence about it too.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Yeah, our vet mentioned the e-coli danger first thing, but when I'm cutting and packaging the raw food, I cover the counter with layers of newspaper, and I wear gloves to handle the meat. I'm scrupulous about cleaning up, disinfecting the counter, sink, knives, bowls, etc., so I'm not worried about that. (The vet has adopted several special needs children, a couple with GI issues, so she's maybe more sensitive about it than most.)

I know there's a risk of choking on a bone or potentially perforating some body part, but life's a risk-benefit calculation from the day we're born to the day we die. The dogs take their time, chew well, and don't gulp, and we stay with them when they're eating bones, so we can intervene if necessary. 

I was an OB/postpartum nurse, the last 12 years as a lactation consultant, so I'm quite familiar with shoveling against that famous tide--doctors and nurses don't like to have their preconceptions challenged any more than vets do, and teaching them otherwise is a slow and delicate procedure. (Very slow. There were days that I thought the hospital could just build a brick wall in my back yard, I'd go out and throw myself against it for eight hours, and they could mail my paycheck.) It isn't as if I'm unfamiliar with going against the grain...so why am I uneasy about this?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I had forgotten when I posted this yesterday, but the vet told me her office sells Evo, which I assume is a high-quality kibble, but that they'd had some trouble getting it recently. I didn't pick up on it, so she didn't say any more, but as I was paying the bill, I heard the man behind the counter telling a client who was buying a bag of Evo "we've had trouble getting it since the recall." Hmmmm.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'd be interested in links to the peer reviewed articles you mention - although in the UK practically all research into pet nutrition is funded by the big food companies, which makes it hard to know how far to trust it. One day perhaps there will be proper studies that compare different diets over several generations, and give an assessment of the risks and benefits of each. In the meantime, I stick with what makes best sense to me: "Real food, minimal processing and additives, not too much of it".


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm headed out for a bike ride, but I'll sit down to read those articles this afternoon. I'll post links to anything that looks relevant.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I would be interested reading any relevant articles. To me if does not make sense that kibble which can sit in the shelf for a year can be more healthy than a raw natural diet. Does human diets they are increasingly discovering that the less processed the better, why would dogs be different in this regard?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I've just looked through what the vet gave me yesterday. Most of it is from a vet forum, and while it's generally biased against (mostly unsupported opinion), there are some comments from vets who don't see it as anathema, and one who says a raw diet was the only thing that cured his boxer of bloody diarrhea. He resorted to it only after exhausting all standard diets, medications, treatments, and even cooked home-made food. There was some acknowledgement of recalls and contamination of kibbble.

The biggest substantiated concern seems to be human bacterial contamination, primarily e coli and salmonella, but also a couple of other nasties, both from handling the food itself and from shedding of bacteria in the raw-fed animal's stools, especially if there are small children or an immunocompromised person in the household. 

There were three peer-reviewed articles referenced. This is the only one I was able to get to:

"Raw food diets in campanion animals: A critical review."
Daniel P. Schlesinger and Daniel J. Joffe
The Canadian Veterinary Journal
Raw food diets in companion animals: A critical review

The abstract states, in part: _Although there is a lack of large cohort studies to evaluate risk or benefit of raw meat diets fed to pets_, (emphasis mine)there is enough evidence to compel veterianarians to discuss human health implication of these diets with owners.

The other two are from JAVMA (I assume that's Journal of American Veterinary Medicine). There aren't any links, just a copy of the first page of each article, in type so small that my aging eyes can't read anything but the title. (We have a magnifying glass around here somewhere, but my aging brain doesn't know where.)

"Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs."

"Evaluation of bacterial and protozoal contamination of commercially available raw meat diets for dogs."

So, if we didn't already know it, we should be using very good sanitation procedures. (Just an FYI: There was one mention of salmonella not being killed in a dishwasher. I never put animal food bowls in my dishwasher. I do run the knive and cutting board I use to portion out the meat through on the sanitize cycle, but I wash them first and pour bleach on the cutting board.)

Hope some of this is of interest.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Interesting - are the same precautions advocated when handling raw meat intended for human consumption, I wonder? All the meat I feed my animals is passed as fit for humans. I am careful about using separate chopping boards and knives, etc, but have never faffed with bleach, or anything other than hot soapy water! I have always understood that for people with a healthy immune system it takes quite a hefty dose of ecoli or salmonella to cause illness.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I think you're correct that a healthy immune system should be able to resist a normal load of bacteria, but there are those strains of e coli that are nastier than the norm, so I'm just about as careful when I handle meat for us. Of course, we don't eat as much meat as the dogs... (The slaughterhouse where I'm getting the offal for the dogs is a small USDA, human grade facility, but I'm still really, really careful.)


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

Honestly, I would think that since bacteria can pass through the dog in his or her stool, it would be very difficult to keep things sanitary. Your yard would be full of bacteria, which your poodle will track in on their feet. Healthy adults probably won't get sick, but children, elderly or immune compromised people might. And if you bring your dog to dog parks or playgrounds etc. they'll be bringing bacteria with them. 

I'm not against raw, I just am not certain it can be managed in such a way as to keep everything relatively safe and clean. I admit, I'm not an expert on E. coli or samanella... can they withstand freezing? Maybe there is some way to lower your contamination risk?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

JudyD said:


> I took Jazz to our vet this afternoon for an ear infection, and I mentioned I was giving the dogs raw food and bones. She was...how shall I say it?...NOT happy. She said she's seen too many cases of perforated tracheas (one a poodle, no less) and guts--I suggested maybe from cooked bones, but she said she'd seen one from a deer in the woods. Also said it's impossible to give the dogs a properly balanced diet unless you're working with a veterinary nutritionist. She ran off several pages of info, all of it apparently negative, from peer reviewed sources, that I promised to read, and I will, but I had to come home and cut and package my haul from the slaughterhouse this morning. Lungs, livers, kidneys, and hearts.
> 
> I have to admit, it does make me a wee bit uneasy.


Some vets are very conventional, my former vet was. I switched vets. You may find you will need to also one day.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

I'm new to the board, but I work as a veterinary assistant. It's relatively rare to find a vet who will be amicable towards a client who feeds a raw diet. I promise it's not necessarily because their college tuition was heavily subsidized by Science Diet!

Most dogs only come to the vet when they're sick or injured. It took me three months to prove to the vets I work for that my dogs didn't have perforated bowels from the daily raw chicken leg or wing they get, lol! I still feed dry dog food, but I like the sheen the raw chicken gives them and it keeps their teeth so nice and clean.
Usually, the clients that we see who feed raw do it all wrong. They microwave their bone-in chicken to thaw it (ugh!), or they feed just ground chuck and NOTHING ELSE. Or they feed a whole chicken every three days or something like that. The result is a dog with horrible nutritional issues like rickets, downed pasterns, incomplete development of eyes or muscles... things like that. Or we see the perforated GI, bowel blocks, things like that. When we see a healthy raw-fed pet it's only for shots or an annual exam and food is never discussed. The only time they hear about raw diet is when a client comes in with a problem.

I personally wouldn't feel comfortable feeding an all-raw diet because I don't have the qualifications I feel I need to ensure they're getting a balanced intake. I wouldn't know what veggies to add, or what supplements to include. I know it's not as simple as tossing in a carcass every day, so I choose to use a balanced kibble as a base. But I know many folks who do! They spend a lot more time, money, and energy than I do and swear up and down that the health benefits are more than worth it. If I had an unlimited source of funds (and a much larger freezer) I'd be game to try!

The salmonella/e. coli thing is kind of bunk with all the recalls we have on dry dog food anyway. I got salmonella from a recalled back of Diamond Naturals... horrible for me, but my dogs ate the whole thing and didn't even have loose stool. I have a male GSD whose GI tract quit for a few weeks of an unknown cause and his stomach culture came back with e. coli and enterococcus, and this was during a time when I was NOT feeding raw because I was moving! Can't win, can we?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

We're lucky to have a large meadow close to the house, where we walk the dogs twice a day to relieve themselves. It's very rarely used by anyone else, and the dogs are good to move out of the path into the weeds to do their business, so I don't pick up after them, but if they were confined to a yard while being raw-fed, I'd want to police the yard every single time they were out. I'm thinking of getting disposable shoe covers to wear at the slaughterhouse, too, or disinfecting the soles of my shoes before I get back in the car. (Once a nurse, always a nurse...) 

I don't think salmonella and e coli are killed by freezing, but the most common strain of trichinosis is killed by freezing pork at near zero degrees F. for three weeks. I'd never depend on that for human consumption, but I will for the dogs.

As for changing vets, this woman is, under normal circumstances, excellent. She's genuinely concerned about our dogs, even gave us her home phone number when the Lab was having eye problems, has always given them good medical care. Unless she refuses to see us, which I don't think is a possibility, I'll stay with her. I just won't discuss feeding issues.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

marbury said:


> I'm new to the board, but I work as a veterinary assistant. It's relatively rare to find a vet who will be amicable towards a client who feeds a raw diet. I promise it's not necessarily because their college tuition was heavily subsidized by Science Diet!
> 
> Most dogs only come to the vet when they're sick or injured. It took me three months to prove to the vets I work for that my dogs didn't have perforated bowels from the daily raw chicken leg or wing they get, lol! I still feed dry dog food, but I like the sheen the raw chicken gives them and it keeps their teeth so nice and clean.
> Usually, the clients that we see who feed raw do it all wrong. They microwave their bone-in chicken to thaw it (ugh!), or they feed just ground chuck and NOTHING ELSE. Or they feed a whole chicken every three days or something like that. The result is a dog with horrible nutritional issues like rickets, downed pasterns, incomplete development of eyes or muscles... things like that. Or we see the perforated GI, bowel blocks, things like that. When we see a healthy raw-fed pet it's only for shots or an annual exam and food is never discussed. The only time they hear about raw diet is when a client comes in with a problem.
> ...


I think you've identified why I feel uneasy--I'm afraid I won't get this just right in terms of nutritional adequacy, especially since Jazz is just now ten months old and Luke is elderly at eleven years. I started with one raw meal a week, moved to every couple of days, then every other day. Now I'm thinking maybe one or two kibble meals a week, the rest raw. I'm also giving the dogs Nuvet supplement, which may or may not be useful, but it makes me feel better, and I doubt it's harmful in any way.

This is an expensive undertaking. I wouldn't be willing to buy raw meat for 130 total pounds of dog from the grocery store, but the free stuff from the meat processing plant makes it quite doable. 

As for kibble, has anyone here ever had a vet tell you that you should wash your hands after handling dry dog food or treats? Not me, but one of the US government agencies (I can't remember which one--maybe the CDC?) advises that, to protect against just what happened to marbury.


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

JudyD said:


> As for kibble, has anyone here ever had a vet tell you that you should wash your hands after handling dry dog food or treats? Not me, but one of the US government agencies (I can't remember which one--maybe the CDC?) advises that, to protect against just what happened to marbury.


That was exactly what happened! I was teaching "watch me" to a new puppy at the time, so I carried around a little container of kibble wherever I was in the house for shaping training. I never thought twice about dispensing a kibble and going about my day. Oops! Now I use Cheerios or similar to shape and save the kibble for meals only. Lesson learned and hands washed!


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Since changing to Raw meat for my two toys, I have found an excellent provider of human grade pet food that is mixed with vegetables, heart, liver, etc, ground up and pushed through a big mincer then frozen. All the work is done for me. All the right nutrients are there and all I have to do is get the packet out of the freezer put the required amount in their bowls and they eat their food frozen. If they give me time I leave it to defrost. But I don't have to handle anything, and no cleaning up to do. They get beef, lamb or chicken and also the have chicken necks for chewing. I can't see anything wrong in what I am doing but my vet has also tried to tell me I shouldn't be doing it. I told her to read about the brand of food I was feeding them first. I see her again in a few weeks so will see what she thinks.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Ainsley said:


> She got diabetes later in life and the vet suspects that could have actually started her on the path, but no proof since we didn't test her until it was pretty far gone.


Anything can get contaminated, including many of the foods that humans eat AND kibble. I'm sorry that you were unlucky and got ahold of some tainted meat. I'm not quite making the connection how a food-borne bacteria (which is what this sounds like) could have any bearing on diabetes occurring later in life, though. 



Indiana said:


> A third vet I spoke to said that raw feeding means e. Coli and other bacterias are present both on the dog, in your house and in your yard ...she said it's like rolling a raw chicken around your house. You might not get sick, but those germs are real. Sooooo... I have fed our dogs raw and they loved it, but I'm kind of on the fence about it too.


Most kibble is also contaminated with small amounts of e. coli and salmonella, and almost ALL dogs are shedding both of these bacteria in their stool (e. coli is naturally found in the digestive tracts of many animals). A raw fed dog is no more likely to be shedding the virus than a kibble fed dog. And as long as you don't let her drag raw chicken all around your house, you should be fine. I feed in the crate or on the kitchen tile, sanitize after every meal and wipe the dogs paws before allowing them to walk around in the house. 



JudyD said:


> I had forgotten when I posted this yesterday, but the vet told me her office sells Evo, which I assume is a high-quality kibble, but that they'd had some trouble getting it recently.


Evo and sister brands Innova and California Naturals were once what I would consider high quality foods made in a family-owned facility. Then, Procter & Gamble (manufactures IAMS) bought out the company. Now, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. 



JudyD said:


> The biggest substantiated concern seems to be human bacterial contamination, primarily e coli and salmonella, but also a couple of other nasties, both from handling the food itself and from shedding of bacteria in the raw-fed animal's stools.


These claims always offend me, mostly because they assume I'm not competent enough to know how to handle raw meat. I eat meat, and try to buy fresh as often as possible. I've managed to keep myself alive for 25 years. I'm pretty sure I can manage to not get sick from the meat I feed my dogs (which is the same meat I eat for the most part). Now, I agree that young children and immunocompromised individuals are a different and legitimate concern. The stool claim is nonsense. There's no more risk of contamination from stool of a kibble-fed dog vs raw fed, as I stated before. You should just wash your hands after cleaning up poo, period. 



Cailin77 said:


> Honestly, I would think that since bacteria can pass through the dog in his or her stool, it would be very difficult to keep things sanitary. Your yard would be full of bacteria, which your poodle will track in on their feet.


Man, it's crazy how widely spread and believed this claim of some sort of extra risk with raw-fed dogs' stool is! If you have a dog (or cat) your yard and your home are already contaminated with loads and loads of bacteria. Practice the same precautions. Don't allow yards to accumulate stool, don't allow cats to walk on tables or counters, clean and sanitize your floors regularly and keep your dogs' clean. 



marbury said:


> Usually, the clients that we see who feed raw do it all wrong.
> 
> I personally wouldn't feel comfortable feeding an all-raw diet because I don't have the qualifications I feel I need to ensure they're getting a balanced intake.
> 
> The salmonella/e. coli thing is kind of bunk with all the recalls we have on dry dog food anyway. I got salmonella from a recalled back of Diamond Naturals... horrible for me, but my dogs ate the whole thing and didn't even have loose stool.


You my dear hit all the nails on the head. The first statement above, I 100% agree that is why vets are so against the diet. 

Your second statement above: Me too! I'm not 100% confident in my ability to balance the diet so I feed raw and kibble at different meals. 

3rd statement above: That's the point I've been trying to make with this whole post LOL. These bacteria are present in most bags of dog food. You should wash your hands and clean bowls and counters and not cross-contaminate your food with your dog's regardless of what you are feeding. 



JudyD said:


> I think you've identified why I feel uneasy--I'm afraid I won't get this just right in terms of nutritional adequacy, especially since Jazz is just now ten months old and Luke is elderly at eleven years.
> 
> As for kibble, has anyone here ever had a vet tell you that you should wash your hands after handling dry dog food or treats? Not me, but one of the US government agencies (I can't remember which one--maybe the CDC?) advises that, to protect against just what happened to marbury.


I do raw every day. Sookie, since she's fully grown and developed, gets 3/4 of her total daily ration raw and 1/4 of her total ration kibble each day. Shooter, since he's growing and developing and I'd go broke feeding him mostly raw gets 1/3 of his total ration raw and the rest kibble. 

And no, vets never tell you that! But you totally should! 

Okie dokie, off that soapbox.


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sookster said:


> Man, it's crazy how widely spread and believed this claim of some sort of extra risk with raw-fed dogs' stool is! If you have a dog (or cat) your yard and your home are already contaminated with loads and loads of bacteria. Practice the same precautions. Don't allow yards to accumulate stool, don't allow cats to walk on tables or counters, clean and sanitize your floors regularly and keep your dogs' clean.


The world is full of bacteria, I'm certainly not disclaiming that. I personally feel that being exposed to a certain amount of it is better for you, because it help to boost your immune system. But there is certainly more chance of harmful bacteria being in raw food. There's also a greater risk of parasites. Both of which will be present in the dogs stool. If you have any studies to share that show there is the same amount of pathogens in the stool of a raw fed dog and a dog fed cooked food or kibble I would love to read it!


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## Dawnsohma (Jan 24, 2013)

i have always liked the idea of raw diet but never did one tell i recently. my mpoo doesnt like anything ive ever given her but the raw. i do use commercial raw either stella and chewys or primal. my chi still eats TOW kibble since he is 9yr old and will eat anything. she gained weight on the raw and eats it without problem. there are risks to feeding raw due to bones and e-coli and salmonella but your dry kibble is just as likely to have it as well! the reason why your vet doesnt have EVO is because they had a huge recall i posted a thread about it a while back and i mean HUGE recall. ive seen tons of kibble being recalled for salmonella lately. as far as salmonella goes it is really only hugely dangerous if you have a dog that is either really young or really old or sick.


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## pinkteaji (Dec 7, 2012)

When I read about the rules about handling raw meat for raw feeding method, I realized it's basically pretty much the same precaution you take when you are feeding your own family. This is a mixture of what I learned in my Foods and Nutrition class taken in high school as well as college (I'm a Nutrition Science major). 

These rules are mostly what everyone in generally knows, whether you own a dog or not: 
Clean your hands and wrists with warm water WITH soap for 20 seconds after handling any type of raw meat. An easy way to count 20 seconds is to sing happy birthday, regular tempo, or twinkle twinkle little star. Clean all utensils and equipment the same way: hot/warm water with soap. 

Have separate cutting boards: one solely for meat and one solely for vegetables. One of my professors recommend having two for your household and not using wood cutting boards for cutting or handling raw meat (wood is absorbent unless you have some type of coating over these wood). After handling raw meat, clean your counter with a disinfectant (whether the raw meat touched the counter or not). Of course, these rules are there for every household, but not every household follow these to the T  

I think if you're careful with the meat that goes to the dogs you as you are careful with the meat that goes to your kids/family members, you should be fine


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Sookster, I agree with what you're saying. My concern about the stools is that I'm getting fresh-killed offal from a small USDA slaughterhouse. I pick it up within hours after the animal is killed, and all the meat looks clean--by that I mean not obviously contaminated with feces--and the girl told me all of it has been rinsed. But...I worry about bringing in one of the really nasty strains of bacteria, so I still feel the need to be even more careful than I am with meat from the grocery store. 

As I mentioned earlier, I was a lactation consultant in another life, and there certainly are similarities between formula marketing and dog food marketing, both of which are BIG business. Medical doctors and nurses are wined, dined, and gifted by the formula reps, who are all attractive, friendly, gregarious people (they're salemen, after all). There's a tendency to accept uncritically what the reps say. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true, on a smaller scale, for vets and sales reps. 

Supporting breast-feeding requires knowledge that isn't generally taught in med school, and it's very time-intensive at first. Same goes for vets. My vet, who's been in practice maybe 15 years, has a young partner who graduated three years ago. When I was there on Tuesday, she asked the partner what she was taught about raw feeding and said the woman didn't even stop walking as she replied, "Just don't do it." I suspect their reluctance to even talk about it is due to lack of knowledge and time. They don't know, they've accepted uncritically all the bad press, and it would take time they think they don't have to educate themselves and then do a good job of teaching clients how to raw-feed properly. 

There's also the reluctance to practice differently from other local care providers. Nobody wants to deviate from the local "standard of care."

Most babies, on a macro level, do "okay" on formula, just as most dogs, on a macro level, do "okay" on kibble. Every parent/dog owner has to make the decision about what's best for their particular circumstances, but they should have accurate information to make that decision.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Dawnsohma said:


> there are risks to feeding raw due to bones and e-coli and salmonella but your dry kibble is just as likely to have it as well! the reason why your vet doesnt have EVO is because they had a huge recall i posted a thread about it a while back and i mean HUGE recall. ive seen tons of kibble being recalled for salmonella lately. as far as salmonella goes it is really only hugely dangerous if you have a dog that is either really young or really old or sick.


As I understand it, the recalls are more to protect human purchasers than to protect the dogs, who can tolerate more contamination than we can. But, as I noted earlier, I've never been advised by a vet to wash my hands after handling kibble and treats. I just checked the TOTW bag--no handwashing advised. One of the four bags of treats does advise it, the other three don't. (And one of those three bags says "made in China," so I need to learn to read the fine print more closely.)


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

pinkteaji said:


> When I read about the rules about handling raw meat for raw feeding method, I realized it's basically pretty much the same precaution you take when you are feeding your own family. This is a mixture of what I learned in my Foods and Nutrition class taken in high school as well as college (I'm a Nutrition Science major).
> 
> These rules are mostly what everyone in generally knows, whether you own a dog or not:
> Clean your hands and wrists with warm water WITH soap for 20 seconds after handling any type of raw meat. An easy way to count 20 seconds is to sing happy birthday, regular tempo, or twinkle twinkle little star. Clean all utensils and equipment the same way: hot/warm water with soap.
> ...


The above rules are pretty much exactly what bothers me about feeding raw. We can clean our hands and countertops like that, but what about the dogs? A snood, a sani-wipe and a teeth brushing just doesn't seem like it would cut it. And I appreciate so many posters saying the bacteria would mostly be a threat to old people, young people or sick people, but who doesn't know and love some people in that category? A friend of mine got food poisoning at work in her law office and she was quickly so sick they had to call the ambulance, and she was embarrassed to say she couldn't even make it out of the bathroom...they had to take her out on a stretcher. So it can be very serious. Absolutely not judging anyone who feeds raw, and I have done it myself, but those are just the things that linger in my mind about it.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Cailin77 said:


> The world is full of bacteria, I'm certainly not disclaiming that. I personally feel that being exposed to a certain amount of it is better for you, because it help to boost your immune system. But there is certainly more chance of harmful bacteria being in raw food. There's also a greater risk of parasites. Both of which will be present in the dogs stool. If you have any studies to share that show there is the same amount of pathogens in the stool of a raw fed dog and a dog fed cooked food or kibble I would love to read it!


There were several articles floating around a couple years ago after Delta Society banned the feeding of raw meat to their registered therapy dogs. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find them, but in the mean time, how about you find me a study that states there IS more bacteria in raw fed dogs stools? I gues I just wonder where this notion came from in the first place?

With all the kibble recalls, I don't really believe there's more of a chance of harmful bacteria on raw meat than in kibble, but that's just my opinion based on the circumstances. As to parasites, there should be NO parasites in meat intended for human consumption, not even in the pork. Now, if you are getting meat from a source that is NOT intended for human consumption, for example wild killed venison or wild boar, you may have something to worry about with regard to parasites, but freezing kills most parasites. I do feed meat from wild animals, but I make sure to freeze it for at least 30 days prior to feeding it.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Sookster, this citation is from the critical review mentioned earlier in this thread. 

"Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets."
Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DS.
Can Vet J. 2002;43:441-442

"In 1 small study of client-owned dogs, 80% of raw chicken diets were culture positive for Salmonella serovars, while none of the commercial dry foods were positive. Thirty percent of the stool samples of the raw chicken eaters were also positive; the commercial diet consumers' stools were negative."

The authors are also authors of the lit review, so I'm assuming it was their small, apparently uncontrolled, study. I did not pull the article itself. What's here is what's in the lit review. The bibliography lists it as PMC free article. There's no indication that any of the dogs or their owners were ill with a salmonella infection.

As I said earlier, life's a risk-benefit calculation from the get-go. I think a natural foods diet is best for my dogs, in my situation, so that's what I'm going to do, and if it doesn't work out as I expect it to, I'll deal with the fallout. (It's the same attitude that gets me out on the pavement on a 20 pound bike, with 2 ton pickups sharing the road.)


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

I came across the same article as JudyD. The sample size for that study is definately smaller than I would like. I wish I still had access to my university's journal database- I'm sure it would have some relavent info. 

Unfortunately, even inspected meat meant for human consumption is not gaurenteed to be free from parasites. Toxoplasmosis is the most common parasite, and it can be found in beef, lamb or pork. Interestingly, more people get toxoplasmosis from under cooked meat or from not washing their hands after gardening the from cats! Dogs can get sick from toxoplasmosis, although it is usually limited to young or immune compromised dogs. Here's a link to the USDA's website pertaining to parasites found in meat. Parasites and Foodborne Illness


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## marbury (May 1, 2013)

Sookster said:


> There were several articles floating around a couple years ago after Delta Society banned the feeding of raw meat to their registered therapy dogs. I'll have to dig around and see if I can find them, but in the mean time, how about you find me a study that states there IS more bacteria in raw fed dogs stools? I gues I just wonder where this notion came from in the first place?


While I understand the reasons Delta Society/Pet Partners/etc. made that rule it is quite a shame that so many therapy-worthy dogs are excluded just because their families choose to feed raw. When the Delta folks came and presented to our Kennel Club they got us all excited... then polled for interest and got 20+ hands. How many fed raw? 18. Two candidates out of 20, just because of food... what a shame.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Sookster said:


> Now, if you are getting meat from a source that is NOT intended for human consumption, for example wild killed venison or wild boar, you may have something to worry about with regard to parasites, but freezing kills most parasites. I do feed meat from wild animals, but I make sure to freeze it for at least 30 days prior to feeding it.


We eat wild killed venison, but I cook it thoroughly. My son and son-in-law are hunters, so I have some venison in the freezer every year--the dogs won't get any of that. 

And just because I'm a grandma, I have to say that my 13 year old granddaughter killed a huge gobbler a couple of weeks ago. We helped eat it, and the dogs didn't get a bite of that, either.


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## PoodlePowerBC (Feb 25, 2011)

Russell is 2 1/2 years old and has been Prey Model Raw fed since he was 4 months old. My vet threw all the reasons why NOT to feed Raw at me, but then tells me "wow, what a gorgeous coat he has, and what beautiful white teeth he has. Whatever you're doing, keep on doing it!" 
I do feed him Orijen Six Fish Formula a couple of times a week, because he doesn't like fresh or frozen fish. And ALL his raw meals are fed to him frozen, not thawed, because that's the way he likes it


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak. Feeding raw, homecooked or "quality" kibble is agreeable to me. I'm chiming because I had this bookmarked and thought it might fit in the discussion somewhere. 
Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I may be wrong but I *think* the study mentioned is the one Delta Society based their assessment and rule change on. It's unfortunate that they can't find the funding to further a study like this. The study itself states that the results "aren't statistically significant" but "speculates in a larger study, the percentages would be higher". I also wish they had mentioned the source of the raw diet (whether from supermarket or a commercially available raw pet food). 

Basically, I'd like to see more conclusive evidence. It wouldn't change my mind about feeding my dogs raw, but would at least lend some validity to the claims of veterinarians on the issue and would give Delta Society at least some credibility in their decision. I don't think this single study alone is enough to do that.

ETA: This more recent study was more conclusive, slightly higher percentage. They do indicate they were using commercially available raw diets, so I'm wondering if that makes a difference. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1716752/


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

pinkteaji said:


> When I read about the rules about handling raw meat for raw feeding method, I realized it's basically pretty much the same precaution you take when you are feeding your own family. This is a mixture of what I learned in my Foods and Nutrition class taken in high school as well as college (I'm a Nutrition Science major).
> 
> These rules are mostly what everyone in generally knows, whether you own a dog or not:
> Clean your hands and wrists with warm water WITH soap for 20 seconds after handling any type of raw meat. An easy way to count 20 seconds is to sing happy birthday, regular tempo, or twinkle twinkle little star. Clean all utensils and equipment the same way: hot/warm water with soap.
> ...


I use 3 cutting boards, one for poultry, one for red meat and one for vegetables. Your professor is wrong about plastic cutting boards being superior to wood. Here is the study:

UC-Davis Food Safety Laboratory: Cutting Board Research


To me this illustrates the issue with assumptions made without scientific studies to back it up. This is one reasons I do not buy vet's assumptions about raw.


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## Lene (Jan 18, 2013)

When I took Storm for his vaccination the vet asked me what I fed him... I told him the kibble brand (I've since changed it to Wellness), that that I give him raw chicken at night... He said that was great... I don't think the vets here are against raw food...

I also told the vet, that I'm against yearly vaccinations, and he didn't try to push it, just made suggestions on how to make it work - like every 3 years...


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Chagall's mom said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak. Feeding raw, homecooked or "quality" kibble is agreeable to me.


Chagall's mom, I hope this isn't a fight. I've enjoyed the discussion very much myself, and I've learned a few things.

I also thought maybe I was going to have to eat my words, sooner rather than later. Both dogs had turkey necks yesterday afternoon, and Luke threw up bones several times during the night. He seems fine this morning, had a normal stool and ate some...kibble. I think it was a case of too much bone, but I didn't sleep well, mostly because I was worried about Luke, but partly because I could imagine my vet saying, "Ah ha! I told you so!!" as she wheeled him off to surgery. :afraid:


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am glad Luke is alright. It is definitely not a fight but a discussion. I feed raw and it works well with us but everyone must find what works best for their dog. Judy are you out off from raw because of last night?


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

JudyD said:


> Chagall's mom, I hope this isn't a fight.


Merely a figure of speech, I assure you! 


ETA: Chagall is eating a raw chicken back as I type this.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

marbury said:


> While I understand the reasons Delta Society/Pet Partners/etc. made that rule it is quite a shame that so many therapy-worthy dogs are excluded just because their families choose to feed raw. When the Delta folks came and presented to our Kennel Club they got us all excited... then polled for interest and got 20+ hands. How many fed raw? 18. Two candidates out of 20, just because of food... what a shame.


At the time Delta Society made that decision that none of their therapy dogs could be fed raw meat, I had just gone raw with my spoo about 6 weeks prior after he literally almost died on kibble. After almost $1 K in vet bills, and almost $150 in various kibbles, with him on iv fluids and still having diarrhea and vomiting till he lost 1/4 of his weight, I went raw against the vets orders. Withing 3 days he was eating and drinking again, and 5 weeks later he had regained his weight. I went to the Delta Society meeting to get info to have him become a therapy dog. 

My three friends that were there also raw fed their dogs, and quit because of the raw feeding ban, so I never joined. We looked into it and on the Delta Society BOD at the time sat the secretary of the BOD of one of the kibble pet food companies. My memory is not to great, but I think it was Purina. I later contacted several top breeders that fed raw to their spoos and spoo pups and have for years. Does it sound like I have chosen sides? Yup.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I use 3 cutting boards, one for poultry, one for red meat and one for vegetables. Your professor is wrong about plastic cutting boards being superior to wood. Here is the study:
> 
> UC-Davis Food Safety Laboratory: Cutting Board Research
> 
> To me this illustrates the issue with assumptions made without scientific studies to back it up. This is one reasons I do not buy vet's assumptions about raw.


So glad you chimed in here. I winced when I read the recommendation to use plastic instead of wood cutting boards in a previous post, but couldn't remember where I had read the study you quoted which ended with:

"It revealed that those using wooden cutting boards in their home kitchens were less than half as likely as average to contract salmonellosis (odds ratio 0.42, 95% confidence interval 0.22-0.81), those using synthetic (plastic or glass) cutting boards were about twice as likely as average to contract salmonellosis (O.R. 1.99, C.I. 1.03-3.85); and the effect of cleaning the board regularly after preparing meat on it was not statistically significant (O.R. 1.20, C.I. 0.54-2.68). We know of no similar research that has been done anywhere, so we regard it as the best epidemiological evidence available to date that wooden cutting boards are not a hazard to human health, but plastic cutting boards may be."

After reading that study when it came out I quit using plastic cutting boards for anything but bread, fruit, and veggies, and now just use wood.

When I cut meat, whether for myself or for my dog I immediately wash the counter, the board, the knife, my hands, etc, and then my dogs face and paws if any got on them. I think it's important not only to wash them, but to do so immediately without allowing them to get sticky or dried food on them.

My dog has gotten so used to this that he now waits for his face to be washed before he drinks out of his bowl  Chuckle


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> I am glad Luke is alright. It is definitely not a fight but a discussion. I feed raw and it works well with us but everyone must find what works best for their dog. Judy are you out off from raw because of last night?


No, we're not off raw, by any means. This morning, I wanted to be sure he was okay before I fed him a large meal, so he got a half cup of kibble. After we walked and he had a normal stool and no more vomiting, he got another cup of kibble. Didn't seem fair to give Jazz raw food, so she got kibble, too. 

My granddaughters were here this afternoon, so I just did kibble again to keep it simple. (I confess I put the pork necks I'd started thawing for the dogs' meals today into the crock pot. That's what Rich and I had for dinner. Pretty good. Oh, and they were from the grocery store, not the meat processing plant. :biggrin1 We'll go back to raw tomorrow. But it was rather frightening. Good to know his old body can compensate for that kind of problem without damage. 

Good to know we're discussing and not fighting, too. I was pretty sure, Chagall's mom, that it was just a figure of speech, but somtimes my written words miss the intended mark.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I know what you mean about wanting to make sure. I thought Chagall's Mom was just using a topic of speech but was worried that I might be coming off strident in support of raw. Some people can be a little pushy about raw and even what kind of raw is fed and I don't want to come off that way. I have had good results with Swizzle but I realize it may not be practical for everyone. 

JudyD I am glad you enjoyed the pork necks lol. Sometimes it feels like I put more thought into Swizzle's dinner than my husbands and mine.

I hope the return to raw tomorrow works out well for you.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks for asking, CT Girl. We've had three days of raw since the bones episode, with no problems, so I think everything is back on track. Apparently I'll have to be more careful with turkey necks--they're more bone than meat, so, despite that the plan I'm sort of following calls for 15 ounces of turkey necks for a dog Luke's size, that's just way too much bone for him to process. (Now that I think of it, the one time I saw a piece of bone in Jazz's stool, she'd had more turkey neck than usual, too.)


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Necks are very bone dense. For a standard perhaps a chicken back would work better. I am lucky that chicken necks work so well for Swizzle. They are cheap, easy to get and to individually package and seem robe just the right size for a toy.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

CT Girl said:


> Necks are very bone dense. For a standard perhaps a chicken back would work better. I am lucky that chicken necks work so well for Swizzle. They are cheap, easy to get and to individually package and seem robe just the right size for a toy.


I've been trying to find chicken backs, but the butchers around here tell me they can't get them for me. I'm going to check with a meat market in a nearby city, also ask them about rabbit and goat parts. I've tried chicken wings, but they're very bony, too, and have such small bones that I do worry about sharp pieces.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Hmm - I just normally feed the other chicken parts. He only gets a neck or a back if he is also getting a thigh or breast or maybe a leg. He has had problems with both backs and necks. Almost everytime he throws part of them up while choking. And then he usually eats them again and this time chews more. I think he just doesn't chew them enough.


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

I've just read this thread with great interest. I feed my dogs kibble and some cooked meat and veggies from what we're eating. I think I'm too lazy to prepare them a raw diet and I live out in the sticks so probably can't get prepackaged, frozen raw food for them. 

I've always thought it was silly to say that dogs shouldn't have table scraps (as long as it's not things like bread and cookies and stuff) while it's ok to feed them stuff that you don't even recognize half the ingredients. I always felt kind of guilty about feeding my dog table food until I read a vet online say they should have variety in their diet. He said feeding them the same dog food for years and years is what causes them to have an upset tummy with any change. Made sense to me, so I don't feel guilty any more.

I think I will research the raw diet more and see if there's anything available nearby. I bet my dogs would love it.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

kontiki said:


> Hmm - I just normally feed the other chicken parts. He only gets a neck or a back if he is also getting a thigh or breast or maybe a leg. He has had problems with both backs and necks. Almost everytime he throws part of them up while choking. And then he usually eats them again and this time chews more. I think he just doesn't chew them enough.


I've been using chicken thighs and whole leg quarters for most of the RMB stuff. I've got pork neck bones and ribs in the freezer--those neck bones look really...well, bony. And sharp. Luke doesn't have very good teeth, and I worry a bit that he can't chew bone as well as he should, but he doesn't have any trouble with the big chicken parts.


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## Milo :) (Mar 10, 2013)

I went to the vet today and mentioned the raw food switch and he FREAKED OUT...

He was passionately against it, and even said he was making a note in my file that I mentioned it...


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## LauraRose (Dec 26, 2012)

I feed Lula chicken backs, wings, necks. Thought I'd read to NOT feed legs? No?
She also gets pork ribs & lamb parts. 

The RMBs are just supplemental for her teeth, etc
I feed her pre-made raw: Primal, Stella & Chewey, & Narure's Variety, all varieties of each. 
I rotate her diet: she eats a different protein near daily or every other, depending on what I defrosted. 
This morning was venison, tomorrow will be rabbit, etc...

I feed her Fromm GF kibble in the evening. I rotate those also, but just by the 10# bag. 

Yesterday's chicken back:









Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Milo, Kind of how they make a note when someone drinks alcohol? LOL

I took Jazz to his handler this afternoon. He loves it over there and I think I know why. She feeds raw. She showed me her set up and all the fresh meat of various kinds. She grinds it herself and was telling me it cost her under a dollar a pound the way she buys it (bulk and various sources). There was chicken tenderloins and beef and a bunch of other stuff. That is cheaper than the kibble and canned I feed.


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Milo :) said:


> I went to the vet today and mentioned the raw food switch and he FREAKED OUT...
> 
> He was passionately against it, and even said he was making a note in my file that I mentioned it...


That sounds almost like bullying tactics.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I can sort of see a vet's point of view on raw or home made diets - they see things when they go wrong, rather than when they go right. If you have had to deal with the acute fall out from people feeding cooked bones, bones "defrosted" in the microwave, nothing but chicken fillet, ultra high fat diets, excessive bone causing impaction, etc, etc it must be so much simpler to recommend a bag of reasonably reliable kibble than to try and persuade owners to read a manual of nutrition! And consider that their own training in nutrition is mainly provided by the manufacturers of kibble... My own vet was not keen, especially when it came to chicken wings, but on the other hand he appreciates their clean teeth, bright eyes and bushy tails!


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

Yes, explained like that, I can see that point of view too.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

LauraRose said:


> I feed Lula chicken backs, wings, necks. Thought I'd read to NOT feed legs?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You should not feed legs/feet from load bearing animals like cows, pigs, sheep because the bones are so dense they can break teeth. You can feed poultry legs and feet. 

When I read about making a note in the file I thought the vet was being a bully too but after reading FJM's post I realized there are legitimate reasons why a vet should note this in his files. If someone is feeding non commercial raw they do need to educate themselves to avoid these possible issues.


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## WJS (May 3, 2013)

I know the vet would have a fit if I said I wanted to feed a raw diet. There are only 2 or 3 vets in the area and I suspect they would all think it was a terrible idea. It's hard to do this sort of thing without support. 

What would you give a miniature and toy just to see how they liked it? I'd keep feeding their regular food too.


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## msminnamouse (Nov 4, 2010)

I've done my research and my opinion's with your vet but you should feed what gives the best results. If something should happen, just be prepared to jump on it asap, which you would probably do anyways.


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