# What was I thinking?



## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

First off, don't be so hard on yourself. He's an adolescent and that is a tough age! I see you've got two senior toy poodles. Does he get the chance to socialize and play with dogs his size and age? I think he needs more of that, not keeping him away from dogs till he learns to behave better.

I've been reading about the Nothing In Life Is Free training. Maybe employing those methods would get his focus more on you.

Also, is he getting enough exercise before class so that he's not so excitable once he's there? 

He's still a young guy. Be patient with him, and mostly yourself so he doesn't feed off your frustration.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

He gets to play with other dogs as often as I can. I do take him across the street to play with the neighbors dogs once or twice a week. She's a little older and smaller than him, and he can be a bit much for her. She'll run around with him a little, but then she's tired of him.

We take him to the dog park about once a week so he can run around there with the other dogs. He loves that. It's not close to home so it takes a big chunk of time getting there and back or we'd do it more often. 

Before class yesterday we practiced a couple of times for just a few minutes each time. And we went for a walk to the dead end and back - about half a mile. We also played chase in the yard (with hubby guarding the sidewalk to deter his escape across the street). I thought he was fairly well exercised before class. Maybe he was too tired and acting out like a tired child?

I'll look into that book. Thank you so much for your encouragement!


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## Lori G (Sep 19, 2014)

Sounds like the mental games that have been discussed here lately would be helpful too. If you google "nothing in life is free dog training" you will find lots of info. I'd start there.


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## Sammy the spoo (Jul 7, 2016)

Summer - I have had many moments like that, taking Sammy out for a walk and he completely misbehaves. Bucking, twirling, sudden jerk because he saw (and wants to chase) a duck, squirrel, bunny etc. He gets wildly excited with people and dogs. I sometimes feel so exhausted because it takes a lot of mental energy for me to try to stay on course and try to focus. And on verge of tears during my walk or when I get home.

So I feel your pain. I really do - but I'm really hoping that practice will make it better. I'm hoping that I'm banking my pennies away every time I train Sammy. 

It sounds like you are doing everything well - and since Jess does well at home, the class is just way too exciting and fun! I think with maturity, he will have a "a-ha" moment and will be the awesome dog you have trained him to be. Hugs!!

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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Been there and some days I feel as if we are going back! If a class was stressing me out to the point of tears and my dog was acting out the whole time, I would hit the pause button. Maybe audit the remaining classes for techniques and continue working with him at home. Get a long line, until your fence is up, read Lily CD's thread on Javelin's training, especially focus and impulse control techniques. I found an article on PF that included a link to an article from Gun Dog Magazine, and the author observed that Poodles seem to take longer to mature than other hunting breeds. So true in Buck's case! At 7 months, Jess is starting down the teen road, being the class clown, testing boundaries. Poodles are smart but that does not guarantee easy. Be firm, fair, take deep breaths, have a sense of humor and keep working with him.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

Don't beat yourself up, you are not ruining him. He's just young. Hans was a lot like Jess at that age, except that he's more interested in people than dogs. He just turned 3, and I would say he didn't start acting mature until 2 and a half or so.

One thing I will say is that I would avoid giving him commands if you are pretty sure he isn't going to listen and you have no recourse if he doesn't. I also only give a command once. If you are running after him yelling come and leave it, he's only learning that he can ignore you. If he isn't listening out in the yard, put a checkcord on him. It's just a long line with no loop on the end so he can drag it without it snagging, but it gives you something to grab if he takes off.

I've posted before about the method we used to teach Hans a reliable recall in high distraction situations, so I'm copying and pasting it...it might help you:


> Another thing we did was the way we taught recall. It's called a "Premack Recall" in the book I have, after psychologist David Premack. It is a little complicated so I'm reading the section in the book while I try to explain it.
> Phase one is this:
> 1) Get a super awesome reward that your dog has never had before. I mean really awesome.
> 
> ...


Once you get the recall (or other behavior down really well), you might be able to come up with a way to use another dog as both the distraction and the reward. 

The quote below is taken from Dog Star Daily (On Shoddy Clicker Training and the Importance of Premack | Dog Star Daily) and I think it's a good explanation:



> Behavior is changed through the handler's ability to manipulate its consequences effectively. We must appropriately manipulate reinforcers, be they conditioned or unconditioned, primary or secondary, environmental or gastrointestinal, to work for us instead of against us.
> 
> BE THE BROCOLLI
> 
> ...


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I am a beginner so I'm not sure if this will help you or not.

I like to get to my training classes a half hour early. It helps to settle me and Babykins before the class. First we walk around any grassy area for potty time. Then we go inside and walk around. She has a chance to sniff around and meet the other dogs as they come into class. When we were training for tests that involved interaction with other dogs - loose leash walking around other dogs and owners - I was able to practice with the other people in the class as we were waiting for class to start. This was extremely helpful because unlike people you meet at the park or pet stores, you share goals and education with your fellow classmates.

I also handled the lunging and over excitement with distance- ensuring I had enough space between us and the other dogs - and over time that space shrinks. This was something I learned from my trainers, can't take credit for this one as I was pretty clueless.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm not a very good trainer, but I'll offer one suggestion. If you aren't already using a Gentle Leader head halter, you might give it a try. That went a looooong way to decrease pulling and lunging for both my dogs.


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## Poodlemanic (Jun 27, 2016)

First of all, if I were you I would find a good trainer to work with you privately. He/she will be able to take Jess back to basics and get some manners back. Also, all your frustrations are being conveyed to your dog...they can tell what we're feeling by very, very subtle signs so Jess is probably stressed and over excited by your emotion. So you need to care less, ha,ha! I know it's frustrating believe me, I have a really challenging dog too. But you can do it! Jess will turn out great, because you're working really hard to teach him. But for sure, I'd stop the class for now and find a private trainer to work with you. Oh and p.s....you're going to love when he turns 2. He's going to calm down and be so much easier to work with!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Maizie was horrible at the park this morning, so I am feeling your pain and frustration! 

I was also thinking along JudyD's lines of putting Jess in a harness or head collar, just for now, so he won't be able to pull you. 

Lots of exercise before class! Not only mental, but physical--get that boy drained. 

Get to class early like Skylar said. I used to be the first to arrive with Maizie so she could see everyone before we went in. It gives you both a chance to chill so there's not that initial craziness when you start class. Don't be one of the ones rushing in just as class starts! 

Lastly, thank you to Firestorm for the info on the Premack Recall. I need to work on this too. 

Hope you're feeling better this morning, Summer! We all have your back!


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## illiyh (Feb 17, 2016)

Bowie is just like this when we start a new class! I find, like other people have suggested, getting there early and settling him before class starts helps so much. It takes 2 or 3 classes for him to be chill, but he eventually gets there. We try to keep our distance for those first couple of classes and do lots of focus exercises. 

Good luck! 

Sent from my SM-G920I using Tapatalk


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Thank you all so much for letting me know I'm not alone.  That really helps!

I'm going to order the head collar, I've checked into the Nothing is free way of training and will start trying some of those ideas. I do realize that I've given Jess way too much freedom and he needs to start working for his privilages.

I'm still completely burned out today but I'm trying to get over it.  

Oh - last night was our fourth class. LOL. He's not getting better.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Summer, as I recall, the Gentle Leader comes with a DVD that shows how to adjust the halter and acclimate the dog to wearing it. That was very helpful for me. 

And you're certainly not alone. There are days when I'm pretty sure I'm not even broccoli to my dogs, more like Brussels sprouts or maybe turnips.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Hi there. Been there done that with both of my spoos to varying degrees. Four classes is a drop in the bucket. Lily and I have practiced signals and go outs thousands of times in the last two years and just now we are ready for utility trials. Javelin is learning to heel and to do go outs and to jump and to retrieve a dumbbell now. He has had hundreds of sessions working on these behaviors and on attention and focus, however he won't see a performance ring for novice until at the earliest maybe the end of 2017. 

You are not ruining your dog. Spoos are different than toys and for that matter many other kinds of dogs. So what you learned about poodle puppies from your toys is mostly rather different from what you are experiencing with Jess.

My first question for you is how old is he now? I read all of this thread but don't think I saw that information. If he has hit 8 months old and is still intact (and I am guessing he is since you are doing conformation training) then you are dealing with the addition of hormones to the mix of everything else that is going on.

Javelin is 16 months old and intact. He can really be a jerk sometimes even though he has had lots of training. So this kind of stuff happens.

Here are a few thoughts I have. 

1. Skip the dog park. Most of the people and dogs at dog parks I have been to are there to give the dogs tons of chances to act like idiots while their owners stand around drinking lattes. Since you are trying to build a relationship with Jess that will lead to performance sports why let him run around like a loon blowing you off. For the time being I would make everything you do with him about deepening his centripetal attraction for you above all else.

2. Don't stop going to obedience classes. Everyone who is there is there for the same reason you are. Even the most seasoned handlers have had young dogs act like idiots and make them feel embarrassed. The first time I entered Lily in Novice she took off on me and did the zoomies around the ring when the judge told me to take her leash off to prepare for the stand for exam. I had to lie down on the ground to get her to come to me. I was lucky she didn't jump out of the ring since it was an outdoor show (a stupid choice on my part to enter there since we hardly ever had trained outside). I was sitting in my chair after I got her back and was told rather rudely by a not so nice judge to forget about doing obedience with her. I as deeply embarrassed and almost as depressed. An angel in the form of another exhibitor came to me and said I know you feel horrible right now, but you need to know that every single person here could tell you a similar story and she told me one of her embarrasing show stories. The next year at the same show a dog jumped out of the line up for the group sit stay, jumped into the next ring and took an open dog's dumbbell return to the line up for the sit stay holding the dumbbell. 

You will be embarrassed. You will feel hopeless, but then there will be a light bulb moment. Here is mine. I had been in novice again with Lily. We were qualifying by the skin of our teeth. In between the sit and down she took off again and zoomed the ring (a stress releasing behavior for her) and we were excused. That evening we could rent ring time to practice. A friend who was at the trials that weekend helped proof her stays really hard. She got the message. The next day we got a 195 and took the class. She heeled with confidence. She did her stays. When the judge awarded the class he told me she was a lovely working dog.

3. Don't be afraid to do what you need to to get and keep attention in class. In my novice class I can have dogs ready for the ring in with adolescent dogs that can barely focus on their owner if other dogs are present. I tell the people with the less experienced dogs that the most important thing to do is to get their dog's attention. I reserve space in the middle of the ring for doing that while others are working on heeling activities. Ask the instructor of your class if it is okay for you to do that. If (s)he says no, then tell her you may leave the training floor to regroup when needed. And tell them, don't ask. If the instructor really wants you to succeed they will not be insulted by that.

4. I have lots of information on attention and focus games in this thread. http://www.poodleforum.com/24-perfo...-hunting/205393-javelins-road-ring-ready.html Practice them each for a few minutes a couple of times a day and you will see it start to come together.

5. Heeling is not the same as loose leash walking. If you want to have heeling and attention that could take you to utility you should not be following another dog around and around a ring while he is trying to get up the butt of the dog in front of him. Attention first then you can start to really heel. Javelin's heeling is starting to come together, but we spent weeks getting great attention and then maybe only went three steps before we reset. He is required to do heads up heeling. Lily doesn't do heads up and that is part of why we have struggled so in utility. As soon as he looks away heeling is done and he has to reset. That is what you should aim for.

6. If you want to do obedience and conformation I would not use a head collar. You want Jess to learn to stick with you with a "normal" collar. To get that you need static focused attention before you will have appropriate moving attention. I would stick with a rolled leather or flat buckled nylon collar or a martingale. He needs to learn that good things happen when he offers to stick with you. Head collars and harnesses that turn a dog around when it pulls are taking the choice away from the dog and some of them can be physically uncomfortable because they restrict motion around the pectoral girdle (shoulders and front legs).

7. Be patient. Be persistent. Be consistent. Keep it fun so Jess will want to be your partner. Don't forget to breathe. You can do this. I look forward to seeing a title announcement or two (or more) down the road.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm definitely no kind of experienced trainer, so I'm hesitant to disagree with lily cd, but in this case, should the dog really be given a choice? If the OP is reduced to tears by the end of class, perhaps a head halter would allow her to control Jess with less stress for both of them, until he settles down a bit. She can work on attention in less distracting circumstances and transition to a flat collar as he calms down.

I first used a GL with Blue, when we started working with his dog aggression and liked it so much that I got one for Jazz. I do use a flat collar for her for training sessions and in class, but on regular walks and in other situations, she wears the GL. At my age and stage of decrepitude, any unexpected pulling or lunging is undesirable.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Dog training is a lot tougher than it looks. I've been reduced to tears by Noelle acting like an idiot in class. On the first day, Noelle had absolutely no clue what to do and was a wild dog. So embarrassing. Sit? What's a sit? Stay? Not staying. Down? No.

My trainer told me to forget working on every exercise and work only on getting Noelle's attention and keeping her focused on me. 

We started playing "it's yer choice." 




I started rewarding eye contact. Would you like a drink of water? Stare deep into my eyes. Do you want to go out? Look me in the eyes. Do you want a treat? Look at my face.

Just working on attention and focus has transformed Noelle from a wild dog to a much calmer dog. I also agree with LilyCD that too much time playing with other dogs is undermining your dog's value for you. The more time your dog spends frolicking without you, the less your dog sees you as fun.

Your dog needs to believe that you represent all good things for poodles. If your dog gets to play with other dogs a lot more than playing with you, your value goes down. I want Noelle to think of other dogs the same way I think of strangers at the train station. They are in the environment, but not people I walk up to and shake hands with. 

Young dogs have a lot of energy to burn. Do you have a flirt pole? Noelle loves hers. It gets her running and leaping, and exhausted. But, it's also time spent playing with me. Building value for you can transform your training. And I believe you can do this. Have fun training your dog. It can be fun, I promise.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JudyD I never said the dog should be given a choice, but instead said the dog needs to learn to behave correctly using a collar that is an acceptable collar for the work of obedience and a head collar doesn't fit the bill. I do not allow people to work in my classes on collars other than a flat buckle, rolled leather, martingale or if the handler knows how to use one properly, a pinch collar**. The other trainers at my club also generally follow this practice although some will allow a dog to work on an unlimited slip chain (I do not).

summer should do lots of attention and focus work at home (in the house, in the back yard and later on the front lawn in that order to build tolerance for distractions).

I actually don't even like head collars for pet dogs most of the time. Many dogs resent wearing head collars and restrictive no pull/no jump harnesses. Some such harnesses are uncomfortable for the dog. I think if the dog is physically uncomfortable then how will they be able to focus on the training? Additionally people who don't understand what a head collar is may interpret it as a sign that the dog is aggressive. If that dog makes undesired physical contact with a person who sees a head collar that way then you may have more problems than you might have thought you were preventing (I've seen it happen).

**Here is the proper way to use a pinch collar which is really a specialized Martingale (limited slip collar). Make sure the collar fits properly up behind the dog's ears with enough slack for it to rotate freely but tight enough that if the dog pulls against it it will feel the points easily. Do not hook the collar to a leash until you can put the collar on the dog with it not being resentful of it. Encourage acceptance of the collar with praise and treats. Do not leave the collar on the dog unless you are interacting with the dog. You do not want to risk an accidental hang up with another dog or a piece of furniture. Once you have acceptance of wearing the collar you will start to touch the collar to put a gentle bit of pressure on it, again using praise and treats. When the dog shows no signs of resentment or concern you can now attach the collar to the leash in situations where the dog is already easily paying attention to you and start to work with the collar "live." You will never pop the leash, but instead you will allow the dog to start to move away and feel the pressure of the collar. The dog will decide for itself what level of pressure from the collar will be meaningful. 

For all of my dogs a pinch collar is no big deal. Javelin is the most recent dog to have been trained to accept the collar and he has taken a while to get used to it, but now happily works with it on and live for nearly everything we do. I do not have it live for anyone who is being sent away on a go out or a retrieve, but always have it live if I am teaching good heeling or if I am walking more than one dog in my neighborhood to keep them from dragging me off my feet in the pursuit of a squirrel or cat. If you use a pinch collar in the street keep two collars on the dog and hook both of them to the leash.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

The Problem With Head Halters | Relationship Centered Dog Training by Suzanne Clothier The problem with head halters is an informative read. For added control, I use a walk your dog with love front clip harness. Noelle likes it, and I do too. It gently steers her back to me. I have it fitted so that it is not restricting her shoulders. My goal is to get rid of the front clip harness and just use a collar, but we're not quite there out in public.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Click-N-Treat, thanks for the link. That's an interesting article. (I have to admit, though, by the time I finished it, I felt like I did forty years ago, after reading a child-rearing article: "My poor kids/dogs. I am a complete and utter failure as a mother/dog trainer." :biggrin1: )

I wonder if the dogs she mentioned that were depressed or upset by the halter were perhaps not introduced to it properly. When Blue started to show dog aggression, we engaged a behaviorist, whose strong preference was for the Gentle Leader head halter. I spent several days conditioning both dogs, per the DVD instructions. Neither of them had difficulty accepting it, neither has ever resisted having it put on, and they walk happily with it, with little or no pulling or lunging. I don't put it on until we're ready to walk, and I take it off when we stop moving. 

I've tried other restraints and have worked with several trainers, all of whom had their own preferences. The first woman, when Jazz was about six months old, used the traditional "choke chain.'' I didn't like her over-all philosophy, which seemed to me to border on brutal (she trained police dogs, and her own dogs were Rotties and GSDs, but she assured me she'd worked with other poodles), so I did only what I was comfortable with, and we parted ways at the end of the series. 

The next trainer preferred a type of pinch collar (Herm-Springer, maybe?), also used an e-collar for distance recall training. He was good with Jazz, who clearly loved him and made good progress with the training, but he didn't do group classes, only private training. 

After two series of classes with him, because Jazz needed socialization, I moved on to the local training club, which didn't have a preference or requirement for collars. I continued to use the pinch collar for general use, until the behaviorist suggested the head halter. I'm most comfortable with the GL, which has worked most effectively for me and my dogs. 

Have I made the right choices? Have I done my dogs harm? Could/should I have done things better/differently? I don't know. 

I do know that, while Jazz doesn't work with enormous enthusiasm or always give me her complete attention, most of the time she works happily, with her tail up and wagging, and now, at four years old, she has her CGC award and her Rally Novice title. I'm absolutely sure no one watching us compete was impressed by our performances in the ring (even I can't watch the video of our last trial without cringing), but they were good enough to qualify. 

My point is that there really isn't one right answer, not for restraining devices, not for training philosophies, not for every dog or every owner. I hope Summer will take heart from our shared stories of embarrassment, tears, and disappointments. Summer, if you and Jess hang in, it will get less bad, and then better, and then good, and then really good, but it takes a loooong time for most of us.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JudyD, dog training, like parenting, is one of those life situations where there are many right answers and hardly any wrong answers. Punishing a child or dog when thye didn't do the right thing because they don't know what the right thing is qualifies as one of the few absolute wrongs.

Yes, Herm Sprenger makes the highest quality pinch collars IMO. All of mine are H-S collars. The ones I have for Lily and Javvy even have quick releasers, which makes them super easy to get on and off.

" I hope Summer will take heart from our shared stories of embarrassment, tears, and disappointments. Summer, if you and Jess hang in, it will get less bad, and then better, and then good, and then really good, but it takes a loooong time for most of us." JudyD well said and I agree many many times over!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Click-N-Treat said:


> The Problem With Head Halters | Relationship Centered Dog Training by Suzanne Clothier The problem with head halters is an informative read. For added control, I use a walk your dog with love front clip harness. Noelle likes it, and I do too. It gently steers her back to me. I have it fitted so that it is not restricting her shoulders. My goal is to get rid of the front clip harness and just use a collar, but we're not quite there out in public.


I love the front clip harness, but then I was told here that it's bad for their front end development. You can't win with anything, I guess :ahhhhh:


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

Thanks, Catherine! When I was a mother with children at home, I thought if I did my best and it wasn't enough, the bottom line was, it wasn't enough. As I've aged, I've decided if I do my best (even if it's just most of the time) and it isn't enough, the bottom line is, I did my best. 

I will admit, though, I didn't do my best this morning. Blue stole the last bite of my cream-filled doughnut from the table when my back was turned. I chastised him severely (read: cursed, waved my arms, and loomed over him), probably more than the situation warrented. But, darn, I hardly ever buy doughnuts, let alone cream-filled ones.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

The majority of my training is very, very positive and I opt to use positive methods as opposed to coercion based whenever I can. I consider myself to be a balanced trainer who leans a little closer to the purely positive side than most. I have absolutely no problem using a prong collar to help a dog settle and focus. Never will I yank and pull my dogs around, but I personally feel, from watching dog's reactions, that a head halter is every bit as aversive as a prong collar. And a front end harness isn't as effective as either of the other two, it's more of a management tool, and it can indeed lead to injuries if used for long walks/hikes or with a dog who still pulls with it on. I like a prong because of how easily you can communicate with the dog with very little pressure, how much it helps get the dog under control so that you can spend more time achieving the focus you want and therefore praising the dog for what you DO want rather than feeling frustrated or angry or disappointed. This makes for a more positive learning experience for both parties...Could write an entire book on this as I have spent quite a bit of time actually teaching my dogs to completely ignore other dogs.

ETA: More about the head halter. I have tried to condition probably 4 dogs to it, and they all hate it. They tolerate it, but they aren't happy. I do think it would be my next choice if you aren't willing to try the prong collar, but I do prefer the prong collar for a variety of reasons including the fact that my dogs seem less bothered by it, I'm less worried about neck damage if they suddenly lunge, and I find it a little easier to communicate with a prong.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

JudyD said:


> I will admit, though, I didn't do my best this morning. Blue stole the last bite of my cream-filled doughnut from the table when my back was turned. I chastised him severely (read: cursed, waved my arms, and loomed over him), probably more than the situation warrented. But, darn, I hardly ever buy doughnuts, let alone cream-filled ones.


LOL yesterday morning Maizie knocked my Starbucks latte out of my hand after I had only had one sip. I was cursing like a drunken sailor. Thank goodness only the maintenance crew was around at the park...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I like that Suzanne Clothier article on the head halter. That's been my experience with them as well, at which point I figure if I'm going to use something that is technically an aversive, I'm going to use something more effective.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

JudyD I would have cursed over a lost cream filled donut too. Things like that are a very infrequent treat.

I saw a piece of Good Morning America earlier this week about parenting based on a mommy blogger who apparently tells people to embrace their "averageness" and to let go of helicoptering or being a tiger parent. I found it very refreshing.

Charismatic Millie thank you for writing about your use of pinch (prong) collars. I know there are lots of people who think they are evil and sometimes it is hard to advocate for them against the flood tide of +R only POVs. Since I never give any leash pops to a dog on a pinch collar, but rather let my dogs make decisions about the level of willingness they have to pull against the collar I actually think they can be pretty empowering to the dog since they are in charge of their experience with it if it is properly fitted. A few weeks ago I was working with Javelin and my private trainer. We were just warming up with loose leash but I had a pinch collar on him as the live collar. He was very mopey and had his head down. When we checked it, it was giving constant pressure, because it turns out to have been Lily's collar. As soon as I switched to the Javvy collar he was his usual happy self again. My bad...since then I painted red lines on parts of Lily's so I don't make that mistake again. Proper use of this and all tools is essential.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

OMGoodness, thank you so much you guys! You really have made me feel better and given me a lot to read and think about and try. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm sorry if it seems I haven't been participating in my own thread. I was without computer all day and after dinner I intend to read everyone's answers more thouroughly and check out the links.

I love the it's yer choice game, and I will check into a flirt pole. Not sure what to do about collars. My local poodle expert suggested a pinch type collar to me, but in my obedience class they fit the dog with a collar that they expect us to use. It's a choke collar (not chain choke) and it's so dang super tight it's hard for me to get on him without pinching his skin. I hate it and maybe he does too. A different collar might help a lot. 

Your understanding and help and fun stories of your own problems have really meant a lot! I do feel a lot better.

Of course I'm not giving up on obedience. I got to steward our obedience show last weekend and it was just so amazing. I want to be in the ring too. Hopefully I won't fail Jess.  

Have a great evening guys! :adore:


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Summer said:


> OMGoodness, thank you so much you guys! You really have made me feel better and given me a lot to read and think about and try. Thank you, thank you, thank you! I'm sorry if it seems I haven't been participating in my own thread. I was without computer all day and after dinner I intend to read everyone's answers more thouroughly and check out the links.
> 
> I love the it's yer choice game, and I will check into a flirt pole. *Not sure what to do about collars. My local poodle expert suggested a pinch type collar to me, but in my obedience class they fit the dog with a collar that they expect us to use. It's a choke collar (not chain choke) and it's so dang super tight it's hard for me to get on him without pinching his skin. I hate it and maybe he does too. A different collar might help a lot. *
> 
> ...


No worries about being away from a computer. The real world calls us away from our PF conversations more than some of us might like.

Can you show us a picture of that collar (maybe both on and off Jess)? I am not quite making a mental picture of it. If it is so tight it is hard to get on though I can only imagine that it is something that is giving constant pressure on his neck. So I don't get how it is giving him information about what is right and what is wrong! If you hate it you can be sure Jess does too from the moment you start fretting over trying to get it on until the relief for both of you for taking it off. I would try a pinch collar. Acclimate Jess to it as I described above and then use it when you are working before your next class and see what happens.

Stewarding is so great as a learning opportunity. It is inspirational too. And as an exhibitor I can't say thank you enough to people who work at trials. Good stewards are the life blood of most trials.

And it isn't hopefully that you won't fail..._You won't fail_.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

I'm attaching the picture of the collar. I'm pretty sure I'll be reprimanded if I use a different collar, but this is just tight. He's grown in the past 4 weeks since he was fittet and I'm growing his hair out too so that contributes to the problem as well. 

I'm sorry the one on him is so blurry. I didn't realize it until I'd taken the collar off and didn't want to redo it. I think you can tell it's tight.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Eh. Not a fan of choke collars at all.

ETA: Just looked at the photo of the collar they require you to use. That's weird, that they make you use one specific collar, and of all collars, that one. I would have a hard time training somewhere where I wasn't free to make my own choices in regard to equipment.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Charismatic Millie I agree that not allowing handlers choices of tools is not helpful. As I said I generally don't like people to use chokers whether they be nylon ones like that one or a chain, but if the person has a well fitted toggle closure collar without too much extra length on the chain I am not going to tell a knowledgeable handler not to use it. The beginner class I just started has a 6 month old lab puppy who was getting jerked around on a choke collar that was way too long so the dog wasn't getting meaningful information, plus he was so over the top that he would have hurt himself pulling against it. I forbade them to use the choker since they didn't know how to use it or how to fit it correctly.

Summer I have used that type of collar briefly with Lily, but switched in favor of a pinch collar to help settle her down and let her teach herself to stick with me and stop forging, but I don't use it anymore. It is a little bit hard to tell, because the pic of Jess wearing it is a bit out of focus, but I would say it is way too small. It should sit up behind his ears and if you take hold of the live ring there should be about two inches of slack before it tightens. 

Is there another place you can train? Or a private trainer you could work with? I wish you could come to my novice classes. I don't do much of having dogs heeling around the perimeter of the training floor. Instead I warm up with focus and attention work and then do heeling tailored to the people who are there, followed by the other novice exercises. You would not find yourself going in circles with Jess trying to drag you to the butt of the dog in front of you! The assistant who is with me most weeks and I both take class and/or private lessons with the same trainer (who has an OTCh pomeranian). She takes her privates with a trainer who has multiple OTChs as well as having won at NOI (national obedience invitational). My trainer is very much a pay it forward person with her knowledge and so am I.


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## Raven's Mom (Mar 18, 2014)

I used a GL on my male rough collie. He pulled and was a jerk on walks and a choke collar just tangled in all the fur and didn't even slow him down. I loved the GL for him. I tried it with Raven and she fought it too much. I now use a prong collar for walks because she took to it like she'd had one fore years and she walks more peacefully without a fight. Part of what I got a younger dog for was to have a walking partner, but she was so wild and crazy it was miserable (although she is totally fine in her rolled leather ollar for training classes) I had never used a prong collar and had thought them too harsh until my trainer suggested one and explained them to me. Now I am sorry I didn't start her with it younger and saved myself a lot of frustration.


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Lily Cd - I would love nothing more than to be able to train with you! That would be a dream come true, but .....probably not doable at this time due to the distance.  I so appreciate your advice tho. You have been so generous as has everyone else!

Yes that collar seems too small to me. I can hardly get a finger between it and his skin. It's very difficult to get on and it really stresses me out. 

We've done two other 6 weeks classes. One was the star puppy class. I just wanted to do some early work with him and the star puppy accomplishment was fun for me as a newbie to obedience. The other was with a private trainer, but it was very imformal and I don't think we accomplished much there. The class we're in now is with the local training club where I was hoping to learn more about competition training. Many of the members/trainers compete. I do have friends in the kennel club who do private lessons and that will certainly be my next move since we aren't doing well with the distractions of this big class. 

What type of pinch collar does everyone recommend?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I use these in this size for Lily and Javelin. Order an extra set of links (there are 3 per set) so that you can adjust it as needed to fit properly. https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenger-Collar-Release-16-Inch/dp/B0002DIRO6/ref=sr_1_24?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1475321836&sr=1-24&keywords=herm+sprenger+prong+collar&refinements=p_89%3AHerm+Sprenger

If you can barely get a finger under the current collar it is way too small and part of why Jess is having such a hard time is highly likely to be the improper fit.

Doing some privates to get him used to a pinch collar and develop his focus and attention in a low/moderate distraction environment as a next step sounds like a great plan. Once he has better attention you will add more and more distractions to the environment while stepping back to a more basic set of behaviors to boost his ability to ignore the distractions.

You might enjoy Brenda Aloff's Get Connected training materials (book and DVD).

Also please feel free to follow as much of the work I am doing in Javelin's Road to Ring Ready thread as you like. As I said somewhere my trainer is a pay it forward person and since I owe her so much from what she has taught me, I need to pay it forward too.


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## Caddy (Nov 23, 2014)

The collar they require you to use there looks terrible, and way too tight. It's the same here as in different training centres require dogs to wear certain collars. Some want nothing but choke or prong collars worn, while others won't let you through the door with one. Where I usually go all dogs must wear either a regular collar or a harness, nothing else is excepted. Our CKC club here occasionally puts classes on, and they allow you to use whatever you prefer. I wasn't able to get either of my girls in another class (nothing offered right now), so I've been following the Javelin thread and working along at home. Training can get really frustrating at times, but mostly it's fun and sooo rewarding for you both. I have a self imposed rule, I never train if I'm frustrated, irritable or just in a bad mood.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Caddy I am glad you are able to follow along with Javvy! Your rule to not trainn when in a less than happy and optimistic mood is terrific. There are two people who train at my club who have terrible nerves themselves and they keep NQing in open. I know for sure both dogs can do it, but the stress vibes they get from their handlers during trials make it all fall apart.

Related to that concept here is how I try to look at training as an underlying thing. Train happy, train consistent and help your dog know what is right. There is no point in training an incorrect performance since that will be the behavior that becomes the routine for the dog.

The biggest problem with that collar is it is way too small, but at this point I also would not use it because it is an unlimited slip collar (choker, just not a chain).


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