# brown bred to a cream



## jazz06

hi im looking for some advice please,
ive got a cream miniature poodle with brown pigments, her dad is cream with brown pigments and i know that in his pedigree there are browns apricots, 1 red and 1 black, the mum is cream with black pigments and her parents were black and brown there pedigrees had black,brown,apricot and silver,
the dog ive used is brown with a brown nose and his parents were brown and apricot,
just wondering what possible colours will she have,


----------



## Keithsomething

I'm not sure what colours she will have...probably any number of those colours mentioned in the pedigree, but can I ask what made you decide to breed a cream with brown/liver pigment?


----------



## CharismaticMillie

What exactly were your goals for this breeding? It is not a good idea to breed brown to cream as you risk improper pigment and bad brown color. Cream is not a color that you want to have behind a brown dog. The only color that should be bred to brown is black.


----------



## spoospirit

_I think you will most likely get any, if not all, of those colors; with bad pigment! Did you have a plan for meeting the breed standard when you decided to breed these two dogs? You can't possibly get there through this breeding.

Please check this out: COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES

DO NOT breed BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, or SILVER BIEGE (Brown shades) to the following colors: RED, APRICOT, CREAM, or WHITE. *Mixing of these colors will cause incorrect pigment* on the points since the brown shades have liver colored points and Red, Apricot, Cream, and White should all have jet black points._


----------



## Purley

Well, I must say that I am pleased that I have learned something. As soon as I read that post I thought -- that doesn't sound like a good idea breeding those two colours.


----------



## Winnow

I have seen one brown x white breeding and the puppies where all black. 
They all have black pigment too

But I have no clue what you will get. 
I would never mix those two colors.


----------



## Tulip

Thanks for that article, very interesting reading!

I can only speak as someone about to have their first Schnauzer litter, but I've spent the past year researching pedigrees to lessen the likelihood that I'll have a faded litter, or a litter of mixed colours (blacks, pepper and salts, and black and silvers) as I want to have a consistant litter of just one colour.
Breeding is never just bunching two dogs together and getting excited about the colours that might come out, you have to think about what will better the breed for colour, conformation, and health. Not just what exciting colours you could or could not get, and cute puppies by the end of it.


----------



## whitepoodles

I have always been advised to never breed a brown to a dog carrying a cream gene, or a dog who is white/cream. Pigments would be compromised.


----------



## jazz06

hi thankyou all for your replies my mum has been breeding poodles for a good few years now, and i will be honest i myself never thought that a cream poodle with a brown nose was a fault, until recent, my girls dad had a brown nose too, and i mated him with my 1st poodle, she is cream with black nose, and had 2 pups 1 with brown nose which is the girl i kept and a boy with a black nose, why would she have 1 of each colour nose,
the stub i have used liek i said is brown with a brown nose and hes had cream puppies with only 1 black dog, and black and brown puppies with black and brown dogs, 
my mum has used this stud dog too with her girls and the cream pups shes had have all had black noses,
in the long run as long as my puppies are fit and healthy and go to good loving homes im sure the colour of there nose is not going to affect there health, even if i have restrictions for pets only, i love my girl regardless of the colour of her nose,
shes healthy and well loved too,


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> hi thankyou all for your replies my mum has been breeding poodles for a good few years now, and i will be honest i myself never thought that a cream poodle with a brown nose was a fault, until recent, my girls dad had a brown nose too, and i mated him with my 1st poodle, she is cream with black nose, and had 2 pups 1 with brown nose which is the girl i kept and a boy with a black nose, why would she have 1 of each colour nose,
> the stub i have used liek i said is brown with a brown nose and hes had cream puppies with only 1 black dog, and black and brown puppies with black and brown dogs,
> my mum has used this stud dog too with her girls and the cream pups shes had have all had black noses,
> in the long run as long as my puppies are fit and healthy and go to good loving homes im sure the colour of there nose is not going to affect there health, even if i have restrictions for pets only, i love my girl regardless of the colour of her nose,
> shes healthy and well loved too,


So you're just another BYB, eh?


----------



## jazz06

ChocolateMillie said:


> So you're just another BYB, eh?


no im not and i find people that show there dogs are much worse than me who have just had a handful of litters, my girls are well loved and looked after with health checks too they live in the home and not locked away in cages, like ive said my mum has bred poodles for years now and still keep in touch with every one who has bought her pups with no health issues, same as me my older girl has had 9 pups in total and i keep in touch regualry with all 8, (as ive kept 1).


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> no im not and i find people that show there dogs are much worse than me who have just had a handful of litters, my girls are well loved and looked after with health checks too they live in the home and not locked away in cages, like ive said my mum has bred poodles for years now and still keep in touch with every one who has bought her pups with no health issues, same as me my older girl has had 9 pups in total and i keep in touch regualry with all 8, (as ive kept 1).


It is possible to breed healthy dogs AND breed toward the standard.

ETA: By paying no regard to breeding dogs that meet the breed standard, how are you contributing to the breed? How are you contributing to anything other than the population of dogs? If not to better the breed, why add more dogs to the world?


----------



## Keithsomething

...obviously you do not (neither does your mother) know the breed standard...but you mentioned "health checks" what are these health checks involving? Are they the health tests that are suggested for the breed? or just a vets approval to breed the dog?


----------



## whitepoodles

Jazz06:

I read your initial post and was waiting to see what others respond with.
What I have seen is you asked a question, ok, legit... and some people gave you their answer.

You did not like some responses and you lashed out saying that show people are far worse than people who do not show.

That is NOT true and you are making a very generalized statement which I tend to believe you are including me in it as well since I AM a SHOW person.

I have no idea WHICH show people you have met you are so appalled and disgusted by and their treatment housing of their dogs but trust me there are many dedicated breeders who excell in the ring and breed both to the standard and for proper color with knowledge about the breed.

Now, you state that your mom has been breeding for many years and knows what she is doing, etc. etc... then if so, why are you asking people on this forum to advise you what colors you are going to get out of your mom's breeding.. Wouldnt your mom be able to answer this question you have infinitely better than any of us can in this forum ?

When someone is asking a question they have to be prepared to hear the TRUTH, not what they WANT TO HEAR. 

At times truth does hurt and offend and you were offended and started saying that you are better than show people and you take care of your dogs, etc...

MANY show people do take wonderful care of their dogs AND ALSO breed to the standard and the concensus among responsible and knowledgeable breeders is to not mix brown with another dog color carrying a white/cream gene.


And... KEITH THAT'S ENOUGH !!!! There are nicer, more civil ways to INTERROGATE someone, not to be outright crude and classless.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Nevermind.


----------



## Fluffyspoos

jazz06 said:


> no im not


Yes, you are


----------



## spoospirit

_


jazz06 said:



no im not and i find people that show there dogs are much worse than me who have just had a handful of litters, my girls are well loved and looked after with health checks too they live in the home and not locked away in cages, like ive said my mum has bred poodles for years now and still keep in touch with every one who has bought her pups with no health issues, same as me my older girl has had 9 pups in total and i keep in touch regualry with all 8, (as ive kept 1).

Click to expand...

Wow! I didn't know I resembled that remark!

My sister and I show our spoos and we breed. I have never had anyone say to us that we are worse than someone like you. Don't you think you might have gotten a little too defensive here by lumping every single show person into the same cart?

We started our program 2 1/2 years ago. We are both in our later 50's. We have worked our butts off and put every spare dime we had into our dogs and program. We have spent a couple thousand on the dogs we have tested at the moment and will be investing more than that in within the next year.

We have invested innumerable hours of training to prove that our dogs are worthy of being in the gene pool. All adults have earned their CGC's, one attained her certification in the Delta Health Pet Partner program last Sunday and two more will be testing and will pass next Sunday. Our silver has his first point toward his championship as well as his CGC and will be going out with our handler to show in a few weeks so we can go forward with finishing him.

My sister spent a year researching pedigrees and looking at dogs before she chose the stud dog for our first litter. We knew exactly what colors we could expect for that breeding and we had a specific goal in mind as well. We needed stronger fronts on our dogs and a good head. Upon the litter evaluation a few weeks ago, we achieved that.

Reading your posts, it is obvious that you do not posses the knowledge to know what you are doing or even have any idea what you are producing. You are a byb and insulting as well.

I suggest you put some of the energy you are expending here into education in the breeding of poodles. Take some time to understand the poodle standard and educate yourself about color, health and the importance of putting the right dogs together. You might find yourself a whole lot better off later on when you realize that you are beginning to know what you are doing. And, you might stop breeding dogs that should not be put together and look for better stock to build on.

I really would hate for people to see your incorrectly bred dogs with bad pigment and think that is what a poodle is supposed to look like. They are not good ambassadors for the breed. 

As Chocolate Millie said, why breed if you are not going to follow the standard for your dogs. The world really doesn't need more dogs that are not being bred correctly. I hope you realize that if your dogs are not correctly structured according to the standard, you are setting them up for a lifetime of issues.

And, I agree with Whitepoodles. You came here with a question looking for answers. You got advice about your breeding practices. Now you have become defensive. If you do not want to hear the truth, but are only looking for someone to pat you on the back and say you're doing good, you are not ready to be posting questions here.

_


----------



## Princess Dollie

spoospirit said:


> _
> 
> Wow! I didn't know I resembled that remark!
> 
> My sister and I show our spoos and we breed. I have never had anyone say to us that we are worse than someone like you. Don't you think you might have gotten a little too defensive here by lumping every single show person into the same cart?....
> _


You go, girl! Excellent points. (And you can spell!!)


----------



## 2719

Please don't bite my head off...because I agree with what has been said....But she did post a question about proper breeding (so she is trying to educate herself). It was another forum member that made the thread nasty with the ...another BYB comment.
The original poster just lashed out at this comment.

We disprove of BYB but will not sway them to educate themselves on the breed standard if we get snippy with them.

I am with 100% with spoospirit. They have done marvelously with their research and love of the breed....and the hope is that any PF member who may currently be a BYB strive to better the breed by learning on this forum.


----------



## Keithsomething

whitepoodles said:


> And... KEITH THAT'S ENOUGH !!!! There are nicer, more civil ways to INTERROGATE someone, not to be outright crude and classless.


very true O. thanks for reminding me of my low class status 

seriously though I agree with Truelovepoodles and Spoospirit...I think a mentor may be a bit more help educating them than this forum, but I won't judge the source as long as their willing to be educated!
It takes some ba**s to ask a question like they did here...and I think most members here know that a question like that will result in the answers they received

(because honestly this is information that should have been had prior to breeding)


----------



## CharismaticMillie

truelovepoodles said:


> Please don't bite my head off...because I agree with what has been said....But she did post a question about proper breeding (so she is trying to educate herself). It was another forum member that made the thread nasty with the ...another BYB comment.
> The original poster just lashed out at this comment.
> 
> We disprove of BYB but will not sway them to educate themselves on the breed standard if we get snippy with them.
> 
> I am with 100% with spoospirit. They have done marvelously with their research and love of the breed....and the hope is that any PF member who may currently be a BYB strive to better the breed by learning on this forum.


But were they really trying to educate themself about better breeding practices? I didn't get "snippy" until after the OP implied that they don't care whether they breed poodles with correct pigment or not.

I got the impression that the OP simply wanted to know what colors to expect from their breeding. I did not get the impression that they care to make any changes to their breeding program to breed proper pigment.

By the way, the litter statistically will be 1/2 cream, 1/2 brown. All should have liver pigment.


----------



## Keithsomething

ChocolateMillie said:


> But were they really trying to educate themself? I didn't get "snippy" until after the OP implied that they don't care whether they breed poodles with correct pigment or not.


CM you and Stevie Nicks are my dream women


----------



## 2719

Well I guess I was giving the benefit of doubt to the poster as she started the thread with .....looking for advice.....


----------



## CharismaticMillie

truelovepoodles said:


> Well I guess I was giving the benefit of doubt to the poster as she started the thread with .....looking for advice.....


I did too as you can see by my first post. Oh well.


----------



## Olie

Let me see.....my thinking is this, all basic questions of breeding dogs should be done BEFORE you breed and not after....this is not your first time.

I truly hope your breeding dogs are tested beyond vet checks. 

My suggestion in the future when coming to a dog specific forum is do an introduction of yourself (you didn't do that) and post what your goals/intentions are then get into the questions. Its always a tougher crowd when there is much love for the breed here and on like forums. The goal is bettering the breed.


----------



## Purley

This post brings to mind the sad fact that has occurred to me lots and lots of times over the years -- and that is that very few people who breed dogs do it for what I would consider the "right" reasons. Of course, this fact took a while to occur to me. 

I suppose its the same for a lot of people. When I bought my Golden about 15 years ago now, all I knew about was hip dysplasia. So I asked about that. I had heard of PRA but I had no idea whether it was a problem with all breeds or just some. I know that as time goes by, more genetic problems come to light and more tests are available to check for genetic problems. 

It has only been my getting a poodle and finding this board that I have become a lot more educated about health testing. Poodle breeders seem to me among the most educated about health testing because I check websites for other breeds which I won't mention and there is absolutely nothing about it. When I bought my shih-tzus, the only thing that was mentioned was that they were not guaranteed against umbilical hernias because lots of Shih-tzus have them.

I think its really sad that people breed dogs and don't know about inherited health problems. I guess that fact concerns me more than breeding a dog with incorrect pigment. I personally wouldn't be happy with a dog with incorrect pigment just because I don't think it looks good -- but I am sure there are many, many people who just do not care. I guess the main priority for some people is that they have two poodles - a male and a female and they hope when they breed them that someone will buy the puppies and won't give a darn what the puppies look like, or whether the puppies are going to live a long healthy life!


----------



## spoospirit

Keithsomething said:


> very true O. thanks for reminding me of my low class status
> 
> seriously though I agree with Truelovepoodles and Spoospirit...I think a mentor may be a bit more help educating them than this forum, but I won't judge the source as long as their willing to be educated!
> It takes some ba**s to ask a question like they did here...and I think most members here know that a question like that will result in the answers they received
> 
> (because honestly this is information that should have been had prior to breeding)


_Yes, it does take a lot of ba**s to ask that type of question here. Some will ask because they are truly ignorant about what they are doing and will learn something because of it or go away to continue doing things wrong. Others will ask because they don't really care about educating themselves and are too lazy to do the research. Anyone who is truly interested in doing better will take the advice offered and work toward improving what they are doing. 

I will admit that my last post was a knee jerk reaction to the accusation that ALL show people are much worse than you. That was over the top. However, my points still stand. 

Perhaps you can step back from this for a moment and rethink what experienced people here are trying to teach you. You say your mother has done things this way for many years and you are following her ways. I don't want you to take this as a put down to your mother, but just because someone has done something for years it does not mean that they were doing it the correct way. It does not mean that she did it that way because she didn't care. 

I'm trying to help you understand that the way that you are breeding your dogs needs you to take a second look at it. Take time to educate yourself about breeding in general and spend some time reading about the standard set by the Poodle Club of America for the standard poodle. 

Please ask away about any questions you have. But, please, also be prepared to hear answers what you may not want to hear. We are always willing to help someone new to improve on their knowledge and breeding practices. By helping you, we help ourselves and the breed in general. 

There are so many sites that members here can send you to for education. I have many of them saved on my computer so that I can go back and refer to them when I need to. There are tons of things to learn and I am always finding new things to learn. If you are truly invested in the standard poodle, you will work to improve on your practices and we can help you do that.

Breeding is expensive and requires a lot of your time to be invested, but the return is well worth the effort and expense. There is nothing like selling puppies to new owners knowing that you have produced the best possible; parents completely health tested for poodle health issues, hips passed with good temperaments and conformation. You can hold your head up high and can say that you produced the next generation of properly bred standard poodles.

The best thing you can do for yourself is find someone, better two, who are willing to mentor you. An experienced person in breeding, handling, ect. can bring a world of knowledge to you and also have very helpful connections to give you as well. You will feel a whole lot better with someone guiding you in the right direction.

Don't let the fact that you started off on the wrong foot stop you from going forward in the right direction. I have a lot of respect for a person who can say "Opps, I didn't do this well; can you help me?" I don't have any respect for someone who gets defensive, goes away and continues to do things the wrong way._


----------



## jazz06

id like to thank you all for the advice i agree i should have looked into the colours more, as i honsetly didnt know about the liver pigments in creams until recent, could be that have really only seen blacks and brown and the few creams that mum had so should have really known,
didnt mean to offened anyone about the showing but i myself have heard of some that are not so good, so i shouldnt treat them all the same,
same as i shouldnt be treated like im breeding for money or just the sake of it, backstreet breeders as they say, again heard of really bad ones
like i said health checks ahve been done patellas, and eyes, and all clear 
so again im sorry if i offenened anyone and hope i can come here again for advice,


----------



## spoospirit

jazz06 said:


> id like to thank you all for the advice i agree i should have looked into the colours more, as i honsetly didnt know about the liver pigments in creams until recent, could be that have really only seen blacks and brown and the few creams that mum had so should have really known,
> didnt mean to offened anyone about the showing but i myself have heard of some that are not so good, so i shouldnt treat them all the same,
> same as i shouldnt be treated like im breeding for money or just the sake of it, backstreet breeders as they say, again heard of really bad ones
> like i said health checks ahve been done patellas, and eyes, and all clear
> so again im sorry if i offenened anyone and hope i can come here again for advice,


_Thank you for the apology. It shows what a big person you are.

The hope is that you will continue to seek advice, so please do continue to come here for it.
_


----------



## papoodles

Hi Jazz!
I have had the pleasure of living with 4 standards in my life so far, and still I am learning something new all the time about this wonderful breed. That's why I am here too.
You've come to the right place if you want to be part of making sure that their future is bright. I can tell that you love poodles!
Are you in the U.K.?


----------



## Rayah-QualitySPs

jazz06 said:


> id like to thank you all for the advice i agree i should have looked into the colours more,
> 
> im sorry if i offenened anyone and hope i can come here again for advice,


Dear Jazz06;

I am sorry you were not treated with *respect*. You have not offended me and I am sorry you feel that you have offended anyone. 

Breeding brown with cream will not lead to show pups but if properly *health tested* can make some nice pets. What is the *temperament* of the dogs you are breeding? 

Personally I will take a poodle with poor pigment over a poodle with a poor temperament. (Shy or sharp).

The term *backyard breeder* does not have a common/universal definition and has come about mostly because of the _Animal Rights_ movement. All poodle breeders have to start somewhere and being called a backyard breeder 30 years ago was a *compliment*. It meant your dogs lived in your house and not a kennel. It was also acceptable to nose print your dogs to identify them for registration papers. VBG

Posting your question on this forum was one of the better ways to educate yourself. Welcome, and I hope you will continue to post and learn. 

I think that giving back to the breed is attempted when you educate others in a respectful way. 

Good luck with your litter.


----------



## jazz06

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Dear Jazz06;
> 
> I am sorry you were not treated with *respect*. You have not offended me and I am sorry you feel that you have offended anyone.
> 
> Breeding brown with cream will not lead to show pups but if properly *health tested* can make some nice pets. What is the *temperament* of the dogs you are breeding?
> 
> Personally I will take a poodle with poor pigment over a poodle with a poor temperament. (Shy or sharp).
> 
> The term *backyard breeder* does not have a common/universal definition and has come about mostly because of the _Animal Rights_ movement. All poodle breeders have to start somewhere and being called a backyard breeder 30 years ago was a *compliment*. It meant your dogs lived in your house and not a kennel. It was also acceptable to nose print your dogs to identify them for registration papers. VBG
> 
> Posting your question on this forum was one of the better ways to educate yourself. Welcome, and I hope you will continue to post and learn.
> 
> I think that giving back to the breed is attempted when you educate others in a respectful way.
> 
> Good luck with your litter.


thankyou for your reply, the temperments on both dogs are brilliant both have been brought up with children aswell and are well loved dogs,
i know they are not at show standard but i know they will make brilliant pets for someone, and i will make sure that if i do have creams with brown pigments i will make sure that have a restriction as to not be bred from, like i said my previous pups i still keep in touch with and all have turned out to be healthy and well loved dogs,
thanks again


----------



## Olie

Even the top breeders do not have ALL show prospects  

I was curious. You mentioned restrictions..what are your restrictions if any? 

How do you determine their temperments?


----------



## jazz06

Olie said:


> Even the top breeders do not have ALL show prospects
> 
> I was curious. You mentioned restrictions..what are your restrictions if any?
> 
> How do you determine their temperments?


i cant put restrictions on my kc, so that new owners cant breed from the puppies unless i give my permission but once i have done it will not remove,

can i ask what you mean by how i determine their temperments?


----------



## spoospirit

_One of the ways to have your puppies temperament tested is to have them evaluated by another experienced breeder, handler, etc. Where we take our puppies they use a form that has several things on it that the puppies are tested for and graded on. As each puppy is examined by the tester, the scores are written down for each category. The results will help you determine what type of temperaments your puppies have as well as how they scored on their structure. 

We use these results to match puppies up to prospective buyers. Some will make good competition dogs; those who are not structurally correct may not be able to compete, so you wouldn't want to place that puppy in a home where the owner wants to do agility or fly ball; some will make good therapy dogs; others will make good general companion dogs. Some will be very outgoing and busy and need to be in a home where the owners will give it a job to do to keep it occupied, some are very quiet and will do better in a single dog home with someone who lives a quiet lifestyle. Some are more shy than others. You would want to be careful about placing a puppy in a home with children if the puppy is shy. 

I'm sure you understand the process and perhaps, in some way, you have been doing this on your own. A lot of breeders will not evaluate their own litter as they are too close to the puppies to be objective. The puppies are also comfortable with them, so this will not show how they will behave when handled by a stranger.

This is the way we have our puppies evaluated. Perhaps someone else who does it differently will chime in with some suggestions.

And, as Olie said, even the top breeders do not get all show dogs. Sometimes they don't get any that they want to keep to continue their line with. Only the very best are kept to produce the next generation. We started with good dogs; not the best for sure. Our first breeding to our bitch by a champion dog produced one high quality show prospect. Even so, it will be months before we know if she will live up to the standard and go on to be in our breeding program.
_


----------



## spoospirit

jazz06 said:


> i cant put restrictions on my kc, so that new owners cant breed from the puppies unless i give my permission but once i have done it will not remove,
> 
> can i ask what you mean by how i determine their temperments?


_I'm not sure I understand what you meant to say. Did you make a mistake in your first statement? Are you saying the you can't put restrictions so that new owners can't breed or did you mean that you can put restrictions?

Do you have a puppy contract for partial registration and one for full registration? These are really important documents and allows everyone to know where they stand when they sign them. There are many out there that you can see on breeder sites and there are breeders on here who have them who may be willing to share with you what they have in theirs and how they use them.

There are also threads on the forum that you can search that are about puppy registration contracts._


----------



## jazz06

spoospirit said:


> _One of the ways to have your puppies temperament tested is to have them evaluated by another experienced breeder, handler, etc. Where we take our puppies they use a form that has several things on it that the puppies are tested for and graded on. As each puppy is examined by the tester, the scores are written down for each category. The results will help you determine what type of temperaments your puppies have as well as how they scored on their structure.
> 
> We use these results to match puppies up to prospective buyers. Some will make good competition dogs; those who are not structurally correct may not be able to compete, so you wouldn't want to place that puppy in a home where the owner wants to do agility or fly ball; some will make good therapy dogs; others will make good general companion dogs. Some will be very outgoing and busy and need to be in a home where the owners will give it a job to do to keep it occupied, some are very quiet and will do better in a single dog home with someone who lives a quiet lifestyle. Some are more shy than others. You would want to be careful about placing a puppy in a home with children if the puppy is shy.
> 
> I'm sure you understand the process and perhaps, in some way, you have been doing this on your own. A lot of breeders will not evaluate their own litter as they are too close to the puppies to be objective. The puppies are also comfortable with them, so this will not show how they will behave when handled by a stranger.
> 
> This is the way we have our puppies evaluated. Perhaps someone else who does it differently will chime in with some suggestions._


thankyou for that,
i do a few things with my pups,
handled from birth, brought up with children, train them to toilet outside although get a few accidents, and i always when they are eating touch them and put my hand near there bowl and my little girl does the same, my pups jsut wag there tails ive done it with my oldest girl when she was a puppy and shes 6 now and my daughter is always near when she eating she gives her treats too and everytime its dinner my dogs are sitting waiting for scrapes so i try to involve this with the puppies too, as i know some dogs can be very nasty with food.


----------



## jazz06

spoospirit said:


> _I'm not sure I understand what you meant to say. Did you make a mistake in your first statement? Are you saying the you can't put restrictions so that new owners can't breed or did you mean that you can put restrictions?
> 
> Do you have a puppy contract for partial registration and one for full registration? These are really important documents and allows everyone to know where they stand when they sign them. There are many out there that you can see on breeder sites and there are breeders on here who have them who may be willing to share with you what they have in theirs and how they use them.
> 
> There are also threads on the forum that you can search that are about puppy registration contracts._


sorry did make a mistake i can put restrictions on them, as so that they cant be bred from,
although about 2 years ago i was looking for a stud and phoned a lady whos boy was health tested but did mention i couldnt register pups as he had restrictions so he couldnt be bred from, i didnt end up using him, but she was selling cross poodles from him as u cant register them, so the breeder of him wouldnt even know he was bred from,


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> sorry did make a mistake i can put restrictions on them, as so that they cant be bred from,
> although about 2 years ago i was looking for a stud and phoned a lady whos boy was health tested but did mention i couldnt register pups as he had restrictions so he couldnt be bred from, i didnt end up using him, but she was selling cross poodles from him as u cant register them, so the breeder of him wouldnt even know he was bred from,


You made a very good decision as that was a shady breeder (the one who was breeding her stud although she had signed a contract and agreed NOT to).


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> id like to thank you all for the advice i agree i should have looked into the colours more, as i honsetly didnt know about the liver pigments in creams until recent, could be that have really only seen blacks and brown and the few creams that mum had so should have really known,
> didnt mean to offened anyone about the showing but i myself have heard of some that are not so good, so i shouldnt treat them all the same,
> same as i shouldnt be treated like im breeding for money or just the sake of it, backstreet breeders as they say, again heard of really bad ones
> like i said health checks ahve been done patellas, and eyes, and all clear
> so again im sorry if i offenened anyone and hope i can come here again for advice,


Great!!! I am glad that you are doing some health testing! Now, are you just doing patellas and eyes or are testing for the other health issues that are common in standard poodles? SA (Sebacious Adentitis), Thyroid, VonWillebrands Disease and OFA (hip testing) are VERY important to test for in standard poodles.


----------



## spoospirit

_Jazz06, where are you located? Are these AKC registered dogs? Sorry for asking if you already have said that somewhere.

It sounds like you are saying that the stud you wanted to use may have had limited registration on it and was not supposed to be used for breeding and that the owner was breeding cross outs with it. Am I understanding that correctly? If I am, that is very bad. You should run from anyone doing that.

What you say you are doing with your puppies sounds like the type of work a breeder puts into their pups to make sure that they have a good start. This is really good for your prospective owners as well. That is not the same as a temperament test though. I like the temperament testing as it gives us some peace of mind when matching our pups up with their new forever homes._


----------



## jazz06

ChocolateMillie said:


> Great!!! I am glad that you are doing some health testing! Now, are you just doing patellas and eyes or are testing for the other health issues that are common in standard poodles? SA (Sebacious Adentitis), Thyroid, VonWillebrands Disease and OFA (hip testing) are VERY important to test for in standard poodles.



i have miniature poodles and ive tested eye and patellas


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> i have miniature poodles and ive tested eye and patellas


I see  I missed where you said you were breeding minis and somehow assumed standards. My bad. 

Here is a helpful link on testing for miniature poodles:

Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information

OptiGen - PRA Test - Poodles


----------



## jazz06

ChocolateMillie said:


> I see  I missed where you said you were breeding minis and somehow assumed standards. My bad.
> 
> Here is a helpful link on testing for miniature poodles:
> 
> Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information
> 
> OptiGen - PRA Test - Poodles


thankyou for that, and thanks for all the advice


----------



## Sapphire-Light

Its good that the thread its getting nicer.

The only thing I can add its that even if a puppy has a black or a dark colored nose it can fade to a lighter color when it becomes an adult and it will stay this color and don't change back to black, not to confuse this wit a winter nose.


----------



## zyrcona

Hi Jazz,

From this prospective breeding, your cream bitch would have a mixture of cream puppies with brown noses and 'brown spectrum' puppies (probably café and perhaps silver beige as well as the dark brown) as the cream colour is usually accompanied by fading genes.

While there's not necessarily anything wrong with breeding a nonstandard colour as long as the dogs are healthy and there are good homes for the puppies, cream with brown points seems an odd choice and something there'd not be a great deal of demand for. I don't think many people would find this colour 'pretty' as they do with the phantom and parti colours. On the other hand, it is good that you test your dogs and you seem to be advertising your dogs correctly, rather than inventing a name for the colour and pretending it is exotic.

What is your main reason for breeding from this bitch, and what colours are you aiming to produce? If you would like to improve upon what you have by using this bitch and moving away from the incorrect pigment, probably the best option would be to find a black or brown stud who only ever produces black or brown puppies (i.e. an EE dog). You should be able to find such a dog who is KC registered and tested (as others have said, it is best to avoid non-registered studs). This would mean all the puppies would be black or brown, with correct nose pigment for their colour. All would carry brown and cream genes, so if you kept any of these puppies to breed from you would be able to concentrate on breeding either black and brown spectrum, or black and correct black-pointed cream and apricot depending on how you select mates for your dogs.


----------



## outwest

I read through this whole thread with interest. It was nice that Jazz hung in there through the bantering. It did occur to me, though, that no one ever mentioned what a cream SHOULD be bred to. 

My understanding, and please correct me if you feel I am wrong, is that the ONLY colors a cream should really be bred to is another cream or a white and then only if the cream had black points. Some people feel a cream should never be bred because there are too many color variables in a cream, although I think cream is a beautiful color. This is because some creams have the fading gene (not all do). You wouldn't want to breed a black to a cream because you may introduce the fading gene into the black puppies. I have seen blacks of 10/11/12 years old that have remained as black as night. It's wonderful. 

A cream can sometimes be a dilute of brown. In which case it would have liver colored points and should never be bred. A cream can also be a dilute of apricot (I think that is what my girl is), which retains the black points. I don't think a cream should be bred to a dark red because you may introduce the fading gene. I am unsure if a cream to an apricot would be appropriate, but seems feasible.

White doesn't have the same restrictions. A white can be bred to a black and often is. The fading gene is not introduced and the puppies retain the black pigment, although they will be all black or white usually.

A silver, blue and black can all be bred with each other? Wouldn't that introduce the fading gene to the black puppies also? Is blue a dilute of black?

Browns can also retain their color, but it is much harder. You would have to have only browns and blacks in the lines. They are out there, but it would take a search. 

Do I have this right?


----------



## Dogsinstyle

I'm going to have to chime in here....
There are NO absolutes in breeding! I have a perfect example- I bred my Trouble, a cream, many years ago to a brown, several times. Of the resultung pups I kept Chili and Weejun. I'm attaching pics of them both at 8 or 9 years- 
Also Weejuns daughter Widget(6), and her daughter Gadget at 9 months.
You cannot get darker more holding browns than these!
Trouble never had a cream, just blacks and browns.


----------



## 2719

Dogsinstyle said:


> I'm going to have to chime in here....
> There are NO absolutes in breeding!.



Your brown poodles are just gorgeous..such a dark brown! I am glad you chimed in about the whys and hows of breeding for colours. Until there is a definitive test for what causes fading, dilute etc....we just have to wait and see.

One of my first poodles was a deep brown until her demise. She was bred from a pedigree of all browns....with one black back about 6 generations back. Her sister in the exact same litter....faded.(really faded..almost a silvery cream)..WHY .........NO absolutes in breeding.


----------



## outwest

Your browns are beautiful Dogs in Style. I knew there were browns that do not fade. I wish they could figure that one out because that rich, deep brown is my favorite color of all.


----------



## peppersb

Dear Jazz,

I just want to give you a huge THANK YOU for taking good care of your dogs and keeping them as family pets. 

I got my first poodle Sophie from a breeder who was retiring her from the breeding program. The breeder told me how “reputable” she was, and I do think that she bred healthy, beautiful poodles that conform to breed standard. But Sophie and other breeding dogs were kept in crates in the basement and let out in runs if weather permitted. I was not allowed to see where Sophie spent the first 6 years of her life, so I can only imagine. The dogs were fed a cheap brand of kibble once a day, and not enough of it. Sophie was about 10-15 pounds underweight when I got her. When I got her home, she was making a strange coughing noise so I called the breeder and learned that she had been surgically debarked and that’s what the breeder does to all her breeding dogs. Her bark was about 50% of normal volume and it sounded like a horse cough. In spite of what seems to have been a less than happy first 6 years of her life, my sweet Sophie and I had a wonderful 8+ years together before she died at the age of almost 15. While she was still alive, I made a little promise. 

SOPHIE’S PROMISE: Any puppy that I ever buy in the future will come from a breeder who treats the breeding dogs with love and kindness and keeps them in the house as part of the family. No crates in the basement.

I agree with those who have said that a black nose is better on a cream colored dog and I am very pleased that my new cream colored pup (or is she light apricot?) has a gorgeous black nose. But when I hear of your breeding program, my overall response is one of delight. Maybe I am overly influenced by wanting to avoid breeders like Sophie’s breeder. Thank you for loving and caring for your dogs and for breeding dogs that are cherished members of your family and also healthy, health-tested and perfect for the loving homes that they go to. 

If you would like to know what colors will result from your breeding, take a look at the very helpful chart on this page:

http://www.poodles-in-scandinavia.com/vetgen.htm

From this chart, it looks like if a cream girl with a brown nose is bred to a brown stud, the result will be either all brown, or 1/2 brown and 1/2 cream, depending on the genetic makeup of the stud. Since you said that the brown stud has one apricot parent, I’m guessing that he would be bbEe (I’m certainly not an expert on this), and if so, that would result in a litter with statistical probability of 1/2 brown and 1/2 cream. All would have the brown noses.

I just noticed that this thread began way back in June. Maybe you already have your brown and cream pups?


----------



## zyrcona

Dogsinstyle said:


> I'm going to have to chime in here....
> There are NO absolutes in breeding! I have a perfect example- I bred my Trouble, a cream, many years ago to a brown, several times. Of the resultung pups I kept Chili and Weejun. I'm attaching pics of them both at 8 or 9 years-
> Also Weejuns daughter Widget(6), and her daughter Gadget at 9 months.
> You cannot get darker more holding browns than these!
> Trouble never had a cream, just blacks and browns.


You can’t always predict what you will get if you don’t know the dog’s genetic heritage, but you can explain what you get using genetics. In this case, Dogsinstyle’s cream bitch is eeBb. Her brown suitor is EEbb. All of the puppies can only be Ee (hence no creams) and either bb (brown) or Bb (black).

I’m studying colour genetics by reading everything I can find and scrutinising what other people breed together and what they get, so this is kind of a work in progress. I’m going to try to explain it from what I know so far. 

From what I’ve gathered, cream and white can come about from two different mechanisms. The colour expressed by ee dogs is thought to be influenced by a gene on what’s termed the C locus that affects phaeomelanin (red pigment) only. Either there are different forms of the gene or a partial dominance, eg. CC is apricot, Cc is cream, and cc is white.

Additionally, there is the dilution gene. This isn’t the same locus as causes dilution in dogs such as Weimeraners, but a different one that causes both phaeomelanin (red) and eumelanin (black/brown) to lighten as the dog matures. VV seems to be silver/silver beige, Vv is blue/café, and vv is nonfading black/brown. VV and Vv on ee dogs can cause cream to fade to white and apricot to fade to cream, and red (CC with a separate modifying gene) to fade to apricot. You can tell the difference between these two origins of cream by comparing the colour of the adult dog to its colour at birth. Of course, whites who are born white may still harbour fading genes, but there’s no way to guess without knowing their ancestry as they can’t fade any more beyond white.

Extrapolating from this, you can divide the colours into breeding groups to follow for best results:

You can breed black spectrum (black, blue, silver) and brown spectrum (brown, café, silver beige) dogs using the same animals. You may occasionally get dogs of other colours that may fade, may have brown points, and are probably best homed as pets, as e is recessive and it’s impossible to eliminate recessive genes without genetic screening.

You can breed black spectrum and white. (Brown is also recessive, so as above it’s not possible to entirely eliminate the chance of getting a brown spectrum or a white dog with brown points.

You can breed non-fading black, apricot, and red. You don’t want fading genes (or, ideally, brown) when you’re aiming for any of these colours, and by using only non-fading animals for breeding you are ensuring no fading genes go in, and so you will get none out. Again, you may still rarely get an apricot/red with brown points or a nonfading brown.

You can breed black and brown spectrum with phantoms.

You can breed any colour apart from white with partis.


----------



## outwest

Fabulous, informative post, Zyrcona! 

I wonder if my pup is a nonfading cream/apricot. Everyone told me she would fade, but she isn't so far. Her adult hair is just starting to come in and it is darker than her puppy hair (a light apricot). She came from two nonfading blacks. Her breeder had asked me to consider DNA testing her through the University of Manchester in England project sponsored by the Canadian Kennel Club before I spayed her since she comes from fully variant haplotypes, which is rare, but I am not planning to breed her. I wonder, does that project do the DNA for the colors? It seems a great thing for those interested in colors. I doubt it, but I think I will check anyway:
Standard Poodle Project

Again, it was a pleasure to read your clear post on colors, Zyrcona.


----------



## outwest

Nope, no color testing in that study. It is for just the immune system. I thought it might entail more. 

The POODLE CLUB OF CANADA
is sponsoring a research study into the Standard Poodle immune system
in conjunction with
Dr. Lorna Kennedy
Centre for Integrated Genomic Medical Research (CIGMR)
University of Manchester, UK
For this study, WE WANT HEALTHY STANDARD POODLES.
(but we'll take others too)


Still a great study to participate in:
http://www.health.poodleclubcanada.com/PCCmhcstudy.pdf


----------



## zyrcona

outwest said:


> I wonder if my pup is a nonfading cream/apricot. Everyone told me she would fade, but she isn't so far. Her adult hair is just starting to come in and it is darker than her puppy hair (a light apricot). She came from two nonfading blacks.


Then she will *not *fade (asides from possible environmental causes such as sun bleaching). Her parents are both black, so if they carried any fading gene they would express it by being blue or silver. There's nowhere for a fading gene to come from.

Something else that can work as a clue to if an apricot spectrum dog carries fading genes is the colour of its ear fur and the tip of its tail (if it has one). Fading colours tend to hang on to their colour here better than on the rest of their bodies, which is why brown and black spectrum dogs usually have darker ears. A dog born apricot, cream, or white should be a fairly even colour.

Glad the post was helpful.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

zyrcona said:


> Then she will *not *fade (asides from possible environmental causes such as sun bleaching). Her parents are both black, so if they carried any fading gene they would express it by being blue or silver. There's nowhere for a fading gene to come from.


That theoretically makes sense, but then why I have I seen faded browns out of two black parents?


----------



## zyrcona

ChocolateMillie said:


> That theoretically makes sense, but then why I have I seen faded browns out of two black parents?


Do you have any more information on this (eg. what the grandparents were and the siblings in the litter) or links to any breeders' websites showing which dogs they bred and what other colours were in the litter in an instance of this happening? This would be useful for the research I'm doing in trying to work this out. Also, were the dogs born this colour? I've seen a few instances of people claiming they got silver beiges or light cafés born that colour that didn't clear, whereas I suspect they may in fact just have been creams with brown points. Possibly there might also be some rare instances of the traditional dilution factor in the poodle gene pool also.

Colour genetics seems to be very much a work in progress, and much of the information available on it is speculation because only a few of the colour genes in dogs have been mapped and not all breeds of dogs utilise the same colour genes, but it should eventually be possible to explain all colours in terms of genetics. It may be that there are other factors involved, such as a recessive fading gene that the black parents were carrying. There's also thought to be a 'grizzling' gene that causes black and brown coats to gradually become riddled with white hairs over time, something that isn't the same and doesn't come about in the same way as the clearing that occurs in blue and silver dogs.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

zyrcona said:


> Do you have any more information on this (eg. what the grandparents were and the siblings in the litter) or links to any breeders' websites showing which dogs they bred and what other colours were in the litter in an instance of this happening? This would be useful for the research I'm doing in trying to work this out. Also, were the dogs born this colour? I've seen a few instances of people claiming they got silver beiges or light cafés born that colour that didn't clear, whereas I suspect they may in fact just have been creams with brown points. Possibly there might also be some rare instances of the traditional dilution factor in the poodle gene pool also.
> 
> Colour genetics seems to be very much a work in progress, and much of the information available on it is speculation because only a few of the colour genes in dogs have been mapped and not all breeds of dogs utilise the same colour genes, but it should eventually be possible to explain all colours in terms of genetics. It may be that there are other factors involved, such as a recessive fading gene that the black parents were carrying. There's also thought to be a 'grizzling' gene that causes black and brown coats to gradually become riddled with white hairs over time, something that isn't the same and doesn't come about in the same way as the clearing that occurs in blue and silver dogs.


I don't know the pedigree info, but I can try and find out! I am always asking about the breeding on brown dogs when I see them because the color intrigues me! 

Mil, on the other hand, is out of a black (typical of most US blacks - a bit grizzled) and a brown that faded to a light color. Millie faded first starting fading at the tail (not grizzling, but actually changed color) Her tail is now a very creamy color and most of her body has followed suit. Her ears are the only part of her body that are still dark at the root (3/4 of the ears are dark at the root - chunks are gradually changing at the root, though, so expect an even color ultimately). She does have some white grizzled guard hairs on her back, like you see in both blacks and browns, yet her color also completely changed at the root to a creamy color. She is very close to what I would call a cafe au lait color. Anyway, this was probably quite predictable from her pedigree. There were holding browns and blacks in her litter, though.

I have also seen a true Cafe Au Lait poodle born in a white to black breeding - a pedigree that had been white to black with no brown - as far as back as one could go. Something had to have been carried somehow, and this is why genetics confuses the heck out of me!


----------



## 2719

zyrcona said:


> Then she will *not *fade (asides from possible environmental causes such as sun bleaching). Her parents are both black, so if they carried any fading gene they would express it by being blue or silver. There's nowhere for a fading gene to come from.


Zyrcona...thanks for all the great information. I am also very interested in colour genetics. But I am not sure if I agree with your statement. Especially because the gene (or genes) which cause fading, dillution etc. may be recesssive. Just because both parents of a puppy held their colour does not necessarily mean that the pup will. You need to look at the lineage to see what colours are in it. For example the two black sire and dam , one may have a cream or white in it lineage generations back which can still cause fading if this gene if held by either the sire or dam.

It is similar to what Dogsinstyle stated...you just don't know. She had a cream poodle that had non-fading browns.


----------



## outwest

My pups ears are darker than her body, but the color is blending more with her overall coloting. As of now she is pretty much all one color except for the slightly darker adult hair coming in and her slightly darker ears. She is young, though, but not fading yet. Another 6 months and I will know for sure. Not that it matters, I just think this stuff is fascinating.

Color theory in poodles is so interesting. There are so many colors and combinations of colors and shades of colors.


----------



## zyrcona

truelovepoodles said:


> It is similar to what Dogsinstyle stated...you just don't know. She had a cream poodle that had non-fading browns.


The cream poodle has two options: it could be a cream-born poodle with no fading genes, or it could be a poodle who was born apricot and faded to cream. In either case, it is still possible for it to produce non-fading offspring. In the first case, it wouldn't have a fading gene to pass on. In the second case, there may only be one fading gene, and so its young have a 50/50 chance of inheriting it or not.

Fading may not be a partial dominant, in which case blue and silver would need to be separate genes or possibly separate loci, but that doesn't seem to match up with what I've seen thus far, as silvers and blacks bred together seem to produce blues. It could also be that the genes at the c locus affect the ultimate colour of a brown -- they don't affect the colour of a black, but since the eumelanin in a brown appears more diffuse than in a black, it wouldn't be inconceivable. I've also seen it postulated that the red gene may affect the appearance of brown coats, so it could be that the intensity of brown is affected by phaeomelanin as well as eumelanin. There could be more than one way of getting dilutes of brown.


----------



## zyrcona

ChocolateMillie said:


> Mil, on the other hand, is out of a black (typical of most US blacks - a bit grizzled) and a brown that faded to a light color.


Looking at the pictures, I would say she is café. The process you describe sounds very much how a blue or café clears. Cafés and blues do usually have some white hairs in their coats, and often other varying shades in different hairs.

Here is how I think this works:

EEbBvv (holding black, carries brown) x EEbbVv (café)

EEbbVv (café, Millie)
EEbBVv (blue)
EEbBvv (holding black)
EEbbvv (holding brown)

Statistically each of these have a 1/4 chance of occurring, so probability says if there were eight puppies, two of each would be the most likely. However, probability doesn't always win (which explains the litters with seven bitches and one dog) so you might see more of one and none of another.



ChocolateMillie said:


> I have also seen a true Cafe Au Lait poodle born in a white to black breeding - a pedigree that had been white to black with no brown - as far as back as one could go. Something had to have been carried somehow, and this is why genetics confuses the heck out of me!


This is a classic example of how recessives or genes that can be hidden by other genes can persist in a population. Brown isn't hidden by anything else (it always shows up as either a brown coat or brown points) but it is recessive and it's not going to show up unless it gets united with another one in a breeding. The brown gene trickled down both these lines without ever chancing upon another one until this breeding occurred. It's the same reason why colours like phantom and parti sometimes pop up in solid litters.


----------



## NOLA Standards

Color is ...as has been mentioned here many times...incredibly fascinating.

For me, reds and apricots are the focus, and 9 times out of 10 they fade.
AND then they darken later in life! Or not...

AND I bred a red bitch - lovely red at 5 years old - nothing but red in the pedigree for 3 generations then in 4th and 5th some apricot and in 7 a silver and blue - to a blue male and I got - out of 13 pups 3 blue puppies. (So the red bitch who didn't fade and who didn't show blues or silvers in her pedigree for generations carried dilute).

I am pretty convinced we (red and apricot breeders and as likely brown breeders) are affected by dilution, graying and phaeomelanin as well as eumelanin (or might be the better word). Am STILL waiting on the study supposedly coming out this year that ids multiple dilution locations in the poodle and the locations of those dilutions and how they interact and affect the color. I might grow old waiting or I might email the scientist again and see if I can't get my head bit off....

To bring up the tail docking thread... Mosie x Annie puppy tail tips will be sent in for a study. I'm most excited about that! 

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


----------



## outwest

Oh, so there isn't genetic color testing quite yet? It will be a boon to the red and apricot people trying for holding colors. 

It sounds like the only way to tell if a dog is nonfading is to see if they remain the same color their entire life. 

With mine as an example, the sire had one dark cream a few generations back. I have no idea if that was a nonfading cream or not. The picture I saw the dog was 2 and not at all white, but a darkish cream in the photo. The sire also had one brown the same number of generations back. I saw a picture of that dog and he was nonfading at 4 years old (the time of the pic). I don't know if he ended up dark his whole life. The dam had all blacks with the one complete apricot line that was all apricot starting three generations back. What popped out of that breeding was a enormous variety: three creams with mine being the darkest, three browns (all really dark, dark browns as pups) and three blacks. 

I went back a long way on the dams side and could find no browns on her side. I will go and check again, but according to what you say, the browns in this particular litter had to have brown on both sides. I understand how two nonfading blacks produced the varying shades of dark cream, though, because of the 'apricots' on the dams side. Most people who don't know poodles call mine an apricot and I tell them she is cream. Maybe one of those 'apricots' was really a brown? Hmmmm. Other than the apricot line, the one cream and the one brown, it was all black back ten generations. I will look back further, but that is really far back!


----------



## zyrcona

OK, alternative C hypothesis for apricot-spectrum dogs

Three possible alleles at one locus:

Ca (top dominant) apricot
Cc (cream)
cw (white)

Assuming none of the fading genes that cause cafés/silvers/etc to clear are present, you will get the following on ee dogs:

CaCa non-fading apricot. This breeds true, ie., if you breed non-fading apricot to non-fading apricot, the puppies will all be non-fading apricot.
CaCc and CaCw apricot that lightens to a paler apricot
CcCc and Cccw cream
cwcw white, which also breeds true.

To compound matters, we also have the red gene, R. Red occurs at a separate locus and acts to intensify the colour of a red coat. What this will do is ‘upgrade’ the colour of the coat as determined at the C locus, so white will become cream, cream will become apricot, and apricot will become red. This suggests the following:

eeRRCaCavv Deepest darkest red that does not fade, like an Irish Setter or the markings on a Rotty. Breeds true.
eeRrCaCavv red that does not fade significantly. Produces apricots and reds when bred to the same.

The same genes might also affect the intensity of brown coats in a similar way.


----------



## zyrcona

NOLA Standards said:


> AND I bred a red bitch - lovely red at 5 years old - nothing but red in the pedigree for 3 generations then in 4th and 5th some apricot and in 7 a silver and blue - to a blue male and I got - out of 13 pups 3 blue puppies. (So the red bitch who didn't fade and who didn't show blues or silvers in her pedigree for generations carried dilute).


If you bred your red bitch to a blue dog and got blue puppies, the blue came from the dad. eevvRrCaCa
x EeVvrrC?C? 



NOLA Standards said:


> Am STILL waiting on the study supposedly coming out this year that ids multiple dilution locations in the poodle and the locations of those dilutions and how they interact and affect the color. I might grow old waiting or I might email the scientist again and see if I can't get my head bit off....


Interesting. Hope you hear more soon!



NOLA Standards said:


> To bring up the tail docking thread... Mosie x Annie puppy tail tips will be sent in for a study. I'm most excited about that!


lol cool. This reminds me of something I once heard, and I've no idea if it's true or not -- that the foreskins from infant circumcision are where all the skin comes from to do 'dermatological' testing you see referenced on the packets of our 'not tested on animals' cosmetics!


----------



## Bellplain

By the way, the litter statistically will be 1/2 cream, 1/2 brown. All should have liver pigment.[/QUOTE]

Wrong, the litter will most likely be 100% black, because browns do not carry a cream gene from 100s of years of never breeding browns to anything with a cream gene, and the cream, I assume, has black pigment (i.e., a black nose, pads, eye rims, etc.) In the next generation you can get browns and creams with brown (yuck) or black pigment. Cream is recessive to both black and brown and you need two cream genes to get any cream puppies. You also need two brown genes to get brown puppies because brown is recessive to black. Since the cream probably has two genes for black pigment, because creams are never bred to lines that have brown behind them, and the brown does not have a cream gene to give the puppies for the same reason, the puppies will all be black.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

> *Me*: By the way, the litter statistically will be 1/2 cream, 1/2 brown. All should have liver pigment.
> 
> *Bellplain*: Wrong, the litter will most likely be 100% black, because browns do not carry a cream gene from 100s of years of never breeding browns to anything with a cream gene, and the cream, I assume, has black pigment (i.e., a black nose, pads, eye rims, etc.) In the next generation you can get browns and creams with brown (yuck) or black pigment. Cream is recessive to both black and brown and you need two cream genes to get any cream puppies. You also need two brown genes to get brown puppies because brown is recessive to black. Since the cream probably has two genes for black pigment, because creams are never bred to lines that have brown behind them, and the brown does not have a cream gene to give the puppies for the same reason, the puppies will all be black.


You must have missed this first post, and the ensuing controversy on the OP's decision to breed a creme with brown pigment to a brown dog:



> hi im looking for some advice please,
> ive got a *cream miniature poodle with brown pigments*, *her dad is cream with brown pigments* and i know that in his pedigree there are browns apricots, 1 red and 1 black, the mum is cream with black pigments and her parents were black and brown there pedigrees had black,brown,apricot and silver,
> *the dog ive used is brown with a brown nose* and his parents were brown and apricot,
> just wondering what possible colours will she have,


Hence, the litter will statistically, _according to VetGen_, produce "cream" and "brown" puppies with brown/liver pigment.

Also, I'm not sure that I agree with your statement that browns have not been bred to those carrying cream for 100s of years? While not at all a desirable practice IMO, it certainly is done.


----------



## Bellplain

ChocolateMillie said:


> You must have missed this first post:
> 
> 
> 
> Hence, the litter will statistically, _according to VetGen_, produce creme and brown puppies with brown pigment.


I did miss that, thank you for correcting me. Well, you still can only get cream puppies if both parents carry the cream gene and the brown sire probably does not carry that unless one of his parents are cream. Therefore the litter will probably be 100% brown if the sire doesn't carry cream or 50% brown and 50% cream with brown pigment if the sire does carry cream.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Bellplain said:


> I did miss that, thank you for correcting me. Well, you still can only get cream puppies if both parents carry the cream gene and the brown sire probably does not carry that unless one of his parents are cream. Therefore the litter will probably be 100% brown if the sire doesn't carry cream or 50% brown and 50% cream with brown pigment if the sire does carry cream.


But, we cannot assume that the brown dog does not carry cream. IF the brown carries cream, and is bbEe, if bred to a cream with brown pigment, bbee, the puppies will be 1/2 cream, 1/2 brown. IF the brown does not carry cream, it is bbEE and the litter will be all brown.

VetGen: Veterinary Genetic Services - Canine - List of Services - Coat Color

Even these statistics do not always tell us everything. Like I said earlier in this thread, I've seen a Cafe Au Lait pop out several generations of black to white breeding. No brown gene that I could find. It is very possible that a dog could carry a cream gene for quite some time. Especially when such mixed color breeding is happening, as the OP described.


----------



## zyrcona

The OP stated in the first post that the dog in question had one brown and one apricot parent, therefore the brown dog can only be Eebb and no other configuration at these loci. Therefore the proposed litter with the brown-pointed cream would be all either brown spectrum or cream/apricot.

Also, brown dogs are not 'never' bred to cream dogs. Some breeders may do it because they're not well informed, and some may do it for particular reasons, but it does happen. Cream/apricot/white dogs with brown points can result from even the most carefully researched breedings because the genes for brown and apricot spectrum are recessive and can be carried by dogs for many generations without ever being combined with another type of that gene and showing up, because that's just the nature of recessive genes. Recessives that were present at the creation of a breed will always remain hidden in a population. That's why colours like parti and phantom never properly went away after it was decided not to make them part of the breed standard. There's always going to be the possibility of a cream dog carrying a brown gene, or a brown dog carrying an e gene.



Bellplain said:


> In the next generation you can get browns and creams with brown (yuck) or black pigment.


:-( It might not be desirable, and it might not be correct according to the breed standard, but it's not the dog's fault what colour it is! A cream dog with a brown nose can still make a wonderful companion for someone.


----------



## jazz06

hi everyone thankyou for all the replies again just to inform you all my girl didnt catch after 3 good matings think she was pregnant but might have reabsorbed.
just to up date with colour of stud he is brown and has had black,cream and brown puppies


----------



## CharismaticMillie

jazz06 said:


> hi everyone thankyou for all the replies again just to inform you all my girl didnt catch after 3 good matings think she was pregnant but might have reabsorbed.
> just to up date with colour of stud he is brown and has had black,cream and brown puppies


So we know he carries cream and brown.


----------



## Marcie

To Jazz06: 

If I remember correctly, (and that is remembering back a lot of years) in high school biology they would teach you what you would get and the percentages if you bred certain colored cows with other certain color cows. Not only color but certain traits, good and bad. You should probably understand a little more about genetics before you embark on a breeding career.


----------



## ekbaby734

Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> Personally I will take a poodle with poor pigment over a poodle with a poor temperament. (Shy or sharp).


So Very True!


----------



## Ryloch

*Late to the game, but.......*

I realize this is an older thread, but there is a lady in my area who is a breeder. She raises Pomeranians. She "decided" she was going to breed standards. As I have previously stated, I have been reading threads from this forum for years just as entertainment and some information has been educating. I am a hospital administrator and technician at a veterinary hospital. I have been with my current employer over 20 years. So, this breeder brought her male in for radiographs and blood work to be sent to the appropriate labs. Her male is cream. I asked what color the female was that will be in next week for her testing. Her answer was brown. I told her that I had read on here that you do NOT do this. She was completely taken off guard with this information. Now, I am asking on her behalf and on the breeds behalf, what color do you breed with cream?


----------



## hopetocurl

Ryloch...spoo spirit posted a great link that offers some explanation.




spoospirit said:


> _I think you will most likely get any, if not all, of those colors; with bad pigment! Did you have a plan for meeting the breed standard when you decided to breed these two dogs? You can't possibly get there through this breeding.
> 
> Please check this out: COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES
> 
> DO NOT breed BROWN, CAFE AU LAIT, or SILVER BIEGE (Brown shades) to the following colors: RED, APRICOT, CREAM, or WHITE. *Mixing of these colors will cause incorrect pigment* on the points since the brown shades have liver colored points and Red, Apricot, Cream, and White should all have jet black points._


----------



## peppersb

I have a cream girl who I am breeding, so I did quite a bit of research on color issues. Here's a short version of what could be a much longer story.

The reason that you do not want to breed a cream to a brown is that there is a chance that you would produce a cream (or white or apricot or red) dog with a brown nose. This is a flaw and in the opinion of many poodle people (myself included), it is not a very attractive combination. The gene that produces brown is 'b' and the gene that produces cream (or white or apricot or red) is 'e'. Both are recessive. A cream dog with a brown nose is 'bbee'. This is what you do not want to produce. 

Whenever both parents have at least one 'b' and at least one 'e' there is a chance that you will produce bbee. Colors that have at least one 'b' and at least one 'e' are:

bbee: Cream with brown/liver nose (carries brown gene)
Bbee: Cream, carries brown gene
bbEe: Brown, carries cream gene
BbEe: Black, carries brown gene and cream gene

In the above examples, the cream gene is the same as the white, apricot or red gene. So where I say "cream" it really means "white, cream, apricot or red."

If you have a cream dog, the real question is "does the cream dog carry the brown gene?" If the answer is yes, then you need to avoid breeding not only to brown but also to a dog of any color that carries the brown gene. There are two ways to know if your cream dog carries the brown gene: (1) the most reliable is genetic testing (2) the second is to look at the dog's pedigree and see if there has been any brown in the past 5 generations (at least). This is not completely reliable since brown is recessive. But if the color information is available for every dog in 5 generations or more, it can give you a pretty good idea. 

If you know that your cream dog does not carry the brown gene, then you can breed to any color at all, including brown. You will not get a bbee dog unless both parents carry the brown gene. However, you could get a black or cream dog that carried the brown gene and you might not want that if you are starting a breeding program. 

In general, breeders who want browns stay away from white, cream, apricot and red and breeders who want white cream apricot and red stay away from brown. But the availability of health testing allows us to have more information about the genetic makeup of our breeding dogs and this allows us to have a good idea of the colors that any breeding will produce.

The following web site is very helpful:

VetGen Colour Test - Poodles in Scandinavia

And anything on this forum by Zyrcona is extremely helpful.


----------



## Ryloch

*Okay...*

I think that my post was misunderstood. I completely understand why you do not breed cream to brown. I was just hoping someone could tell me what you DO breed with a cream. My hope is to better educate my client before she makes a mistake that will not only hurt her reputation, but could also lead to very upset poodle parents from her litter. I have searched everywhere and have only found what NOT to breed with cream. That said, I greatly appreciate those who have replied.


----------



## Ryloch

*Sorry peppersb..*

I just reread your post. Apparently I missed the latter part of your post. Anyway, her cream's sire and dam have a brown in the fourth generation for both. I called her to double check myself. She says she has access to a silver dam with partis throughout her pedigree. I know NOTHING about partis. What do you think? I told her absolutely not on the brown. It's so confusing????????


----------



## oley

Ryloch said:


> Her male is cream. I asked what color the female was that will be in next week for her testing. Her answer was brown. I told her that I had read on here that you do NOT do this. She was completely taken off guard with this information. Now, I am asking on her behalf and on the breeds behalf, what color do you breed with cream?


It all depends on what you are looking for, both in this generation and the further ones. These days you can easily test a dog for a particular locus, e.g. test to see if a black-pointed dog carries a brown gene, or if a dog carries an apricot gene, or even piebald.

From what I can see (I am not a breeder), creams are mostly bred to creams and blacks, sometimes blues. Again, it all depends on the breeder's ultimate goal. I see very little reason to breed to a brown in standards, unless it's some extra-ordinary brown, and a related black or cream is nowhere to be found.


----------



## peppersb

Ryloch said:


> I just reread your post. Apparently I missed the latter part of your post. Anyway, her cream's sire and dam have a brown in the fourth generation for both. I called her to double check myself. She says she has access to a silver dam with partis throughout her pedigree. I know NOTHING about partis. What do you think? I told her absolutely not on the brown. It's so confusing????????


It certainly is complex. But I actually find this genetics stuff very interesting. I have not read much about partis because it has never been an issue for me, but I believe that whatever gene(s) cause the parti coloring is (are) recessive. So (if I am right), you could breed to a bitch who has partis in her pedigree and you would not get any partis (assuming that the cream stud does not have partis in his pedigree). I know of one breeder who bred a silver girl to a parti stud and has all solid pups which is what she wanted. Of course, you would also want to make sure that the bitch has no brown in her pedigree.

If I owned a cream stud dog who had brown in the pedigree, I would definitely have him tested to see if he carries the brown gene. With browns on both sides, that brown gene might have been passed down to him, but maybe not. It is an easy test, and it would be nice to know.

A silver bitch would be fine (assuming that either she has no brown in her pedigree or that you have tested the stud and found that he is not carrying the brown gene). It might also be nice to know if the silver bitch carries the cream gene. If she does (i.e., if she is Ee), each puppy will have a 50% chance of being born black and a 50% chance of being born cream (or white or apricot or red -- depending on which of those colors are in the pedigrees). If the silver bitch does not carry the cream gene (i.e., if she is EE), then all puppies will be born black. Puppies born black will later clear to either blue or silver. If the bitch has one parent who was white, cream, apricot or red or if she has ever produced a puppy that is white, cream, apricot or red, then you know that she is Ee. You could also have her color tested or you could just wait and see what you get -- they are all nice colors. 

Silver, of course, introduces the fading gene. All puppies of a silver bitch that are born black will clear to either blue or silver. You might want to know what colors in the black range are behind the cream stud dog. For example, if his parents are both black, you would expect all of the pups that are born black to clear to blue. If his parents are both silver, you would expect all of the pups that are born black to clear to silver. The fading gene (or genes) have not been identified and there is no test for this. What I have said about the fading gene is a theory, but there may be some uncertainty about it.

All of this discussion has been about color. IMO color is one of the least important things. I'm a little concerned that your friend (it seems) is jumping into breeding without first learning more about the issues that should be considered by a good poodle breeder. I hope I am wrong about that. Understanding the color genetics of the dogs you are breeding is important and complex and it is something that any breeder should know about before starting a breeding program. Understanding the temperament, health and structure of the dogs you are breeding is also complex and IMO even more important.


----------

