# ancestors



## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Is there a pedigree you can check? I'd look for 5 generations at least, more if possible. 
How far back are the ancestors indicated by the DNA? 
Is there health testing recorded somewhere of her dogs? That information will likely have registered names and birth dates, also sometimes several generations back.

I'm not following how you might think your boy could be the sire unless you're thinking your girl was (inadvertently) impregnated by your boy? 
Was your girl taken to the breeder for the mating? Was your boy there too?


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## jupiter (Mar 6, 2021)

yes my boy had full access to my girl 
breeder put another male over her but it was as quick as you crack an egg


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

If your boy had full access and has not been neutered then I think it is almost inevitable that he mated with her and is the father of the puppies. Very few entire male dogs would pass up such an opportunity - and I am sure that if you tell the breeder all the circumstances they will agree! But as your female was covered by the breeder's male but has become pregnant by another dog through your allowing him access I don't think you have any claim against the breeder for another mating or the return of any stud fees paid.


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## jupiter (Mar 6, 2021)

when my bitch was mated with breeders dog he was apparently just over a year old 
but on all my bitches puppy papers its seem exactly the same as my boy nothing different other than 
her side of ancestory 
so she is saying my boys father sired all puppies 
its confusing


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## jupiter (Mar 6, 2021)

fjm said:


> If your boy had full access and has not been neutered then I think it is almost inevitable that he mated with her and is the father of the puppies. Very few entire male dogs would pass up such an opportunity - and I am sure that if you tell the breeder all the circumstances they will agree! But as your female was covered by the breeder's male but has become pregnant by another dog through your allowing him access I don't think you have any claim against the breeder for another mating or the return of any stud fees paid.


oh I dont want any money i just want the truth can 2 poodles from say 4 years apart have exactly the same ancestors or is it slighty different 
just a bit weird that puppies share same ancestors as my male


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

You can get a DNA test to "test by parentage" at a various labs. I'm most familiar with the highly reputable Paw Print Genetics lab. For one puppy, they would need a saliva sample of the sire, dam, _and_ puppy. This would be $90 US dollars. 

In your country, Australia, there is the Animal DNA Laboratory. Go to their Fee Schedule page, and scroll down to #50 - Parentage Confirmation - Dog (Sire, Dam, & one puppy). The cost is $180, or $116 USD / €84 EUR. The turnaround time for results is around two weeks. To order go to their page here. 



jupiter said:


> but on all my bitches puppy papers


Do mean the pedigree (also known as the family tree)?




jupiter said:


> can 2 poodles from say 4 years apart have exactly the same ancestors


If the two poodles are full blood siblings, then yes. For example King and Queenie have a litter in 2015. They have another litter in 2019. Both litters will have exactly the same ancestors.

But what if they are half-siblings? King & Queenie have a litter in 2015. In 2019, King and Angel have a litter. The pups from both litters will be half-brothers and half-sisters. The pedigrees would be identical on the sire's side of the family but differ on the dam's side of the family - unless Queenie and Angel are full blood siblings too.



jupiter said:


> when my bitch was mated with breeders dog he was apparently just over a year old
> but on all my bitches puppy papers its seem exactly the same as my boy nothing different other than her side of ancestory


I'm not quite sure what you mean here. 
Is the puppy's father and grandfather the same dog?
In an illustration, would it look like this?


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Regarding inbreeding - if you look at pedigrees of top quality dogs you will probably see some inbreeding (usually back to a grand-sire). Inbreeding is used to fix desirable characteristics, but should only be used by very knowledgeable people - people who have carefully studied pedigrees for many generations and are very familiar with the dogs in that pedigree. 

People who produce top quality dogs will usually follow an inbreeding with outcrossing. 

Do keep in mind that inbreeding was used to create the distinctive breeds of dogs and that any purebred will have ancestors who were closely related.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jupiter said:


> my girl was serviced by a breeder whom i have known from when
> I got my boy
> she had the pups DNA was taken and to my surprise
> all pups have same ancestors as my male
> ...





jupiter said:


> yes my boy had full access to my girl
> breeder put another male over her but it was as quick as you crack an egg





jupiter said:


> when my bitch was mated with breeders dog he was apparently just over a year old
> but on all my bitches puppy papers its seem exactly the same as my boy nothing different other than
> her side of ancestory
> so she is saying my boys father sired all puppies
> its confusing





jupiter said:


> oh I dont want any money i just want the truth can 2 poodles from say 4 years apart have exactly the same ancestors or is it slighty different
> just a bit weird that puppies share same ancestors as my male


_she had the pups DNA was taken and to my surprise
all pups have same ancestors as my male
but the breeder in question say her dog is the father_

First, DNA can't lie. I'm assuming that the DNA test run is similar to this example from the AKC, but this is to establish the sire. It's not to test puppies:

_The AKC DNA Profile Program brings cutting-edge parentage testing technology to AKC customers. A cheek swab brush is used to collect the DNA sample from the dog, and returned to the AKC. The sample is processed by AKC’s DNA service provider, Neogen, and the resulting genotype is entered into the AKC DNA Database. The information is used to verify parentage of AKC dogs and for genetic identity purposes._

Next, why did she DNA test young puppies? Is that her standard practice or was there a question who sired from the start? Puppies just aren't generally DNA tested, unless there are specific things being looked for.
Next, when you say "same ancestors" do you mean same sire, dam, grandsires, granddams, etc, and only on your boys side?

_she told me father was just over 12 months old yet when I google his name his 5 years old_

Where exactly did you find the sires name (her dog) on google? Was it on a pedigree site? 12m is rather young to put up to sire. Health testing is generally most reliable at 2y or older. 5y makes more sense for a sire. Do you have anything on paper or is this all a reporting of verbal communications and memory?

_can my boy be the daddy ?
yes my boy had full access to my girl
just a bit weird that puppies share same ancestors as my male_

Not if he's the sire based on the DNA, but that takes me back to the DNA testing.
Exactly who was tested, what was tested and why was it tested?

If you and she have DNA results proving your boy is the sire based on the DNA and she still provided stud coverage then her stud can't be the genetic father but that doesn't remove your obligation to her.

_so she is saying my boys father sired all puppies_
Is it your boy or your boy's sire that DNA is indicating is the father? 

From PawPrint Genetics on Parentage Profiling

How many generations back will the DNA profiling go? #
A DNA profile only reflects one individual. We can compare profiles across families and generations, but each profile is unique to an individual.


*Why is a Dam’s Sample Needed for Parentage Testing? *








Example for marker “A”: Pup is 1,3, Mother is 1,1 and Father is 2,3. The pup inherited allele 1 from the mother and allele 3 from the father.

At Paw Print Genetics, we are often asked this question: “Why do I need to send in a sample on the dam if I just want to know the father of my pups?”. The simple answer is because we need to compare the DNA of the pup to both parents in order to confidently confirm or exclude a potential sire. Here is an example that helps explain why we need both parents for parentage testing. Keep in mind that a pup receives half of its DNA from its mom and half of its DNA from its dad, so for every marker that we examine, the pup has one allele (gene copy) from mom and one allele (gene copy) from dad.
For parentage (paternity) testing, we use a set of 99 informative markers to confirm or exclude a potential sire. For each marker, we get two results because the pup has two sets of DNA, one from the mom and one from the dad. The two alleles are each assigned a number based on their DNA sequence. For example, for marker “A”, the pup might be 1,3; one allele has sequence 1 and the other allele has a sequence that’s been designated as 3. If the mother is 1,1 at marker A and the father is 2,3, at marker A, then we know that the 1 came from the mom because she only has alleles that have the 1 sequence and the 3 came from the father because he has alleles 2 and 3. If we based the parentage only on this single marker, we would conclude that the sire is the father.
However, what if we didn’t use the dam’s sample? In another example, if the pup was 1,3 at marker B and the father was 2,3 at marker B, and the mom was not included in the testing, we don’t know if the 1 in the pup came from the mom or if the 3 in the pup came from the mom. We can’t assume that just because the father has a 3 allele that the 3 allele in the pup came from the dad. If we use the mom in the analysis and find out that mom is 3,3, then she can only contribute a 3 allele to her pup, so the 1 allele must have come from the dad. Thus, a potential sire that has alleles 2,3 cannot be the dad in this case.



Do you have papers showing the pedigree of your boy, papers showing the pedigree of your girl's puppies, papers showing the pedigree of her stud, and is ANY of that based only on the DNA?

Example of a pedigree from google images


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## jupiter (Mar 6, 2021)

Rose n Poos said:


> _she had the pups DNA was taken and to my surprise
> all pups have same ancestors as my male
> but the breeder in question say her dog is the father_
> 
> ...


ok my male has exactly the same ancestors no slight difference at all on his pedigree
and all puppies have exactly the same except on my bitches side 
so do father and son hold same no different on pedigree certificate
weird thing is she told me her male was just over a year old 
but when i googled his name his won shows and his 5 years old which his in a data bass for future siring
confused so much to whats going on 
so my male and my bitches puppies all hold same ancestors not even slightly different
my bitch has totally differnt ancestors


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

This litter is in Australia, right? The ANKC seems to have a procedure for dealing with situations where two males had access. Section 6.6.1 of this pdf explains: https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...FjAJegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1irFfUqygA9Yr6NBscY6uy


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## jupiter (Mar 6, 2021)

ok thankyou


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