# Color genetics questions



## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

We have a cream puppy and his sire was blue and dam was black. I'm wondering what the genetics are with that breeding and how those colors ended up with black and cream with 2 blue, puppies?


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

KPoos said:


> We have a cream puppy and his sire was blue and dam was black. I'm wondering what the genetics are with that breeding and how those colors ended up with black and cream with 2 blue, puppies?


black + cream = 2 blue puppies?
_or do you mean_
black + blue = 2 cream puppies?

Think a lesson in biology would indicate that you may have to go further back than just mom and dad...


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

cuddleparty said:


> black + cream = 2 blue puppies?
> _or do you mean_
> black + blue = 2 cream puppies?
> 
> Think a lesson in biology would indicate that you may have to go further back than just mom and dad...


black and blue had 3 cream puppies, 2 blue puppies, and 3 black puppies


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

CP is right both parents had to have cream in their background 

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/genetics.html


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## cuddleparty (Apr 27, 2009)

Mendel's Law, Punnett Squares and Pedigree Charts will help determine all of this... still, you need to go further back (from Dam and Sire) to figure it all out...


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cuddleparty said:


> Mendel's Law, Punnett Squares and Pedigree Charts will help determine all of this... still, you need to go further back (from Dam and Sire) to figure it all out...


Kpoos do you have the pedigree of your puppy yet ? look on poodlepedigree.com and they have a button to see the colors of the dogs. If you have akc pedigree the colors of the dogs should be listed. But like cp you may need to go back in the pedigree to find the creams or whites or apricots.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Kpoos do you have the pedigree of your puppy yet ? look on poodlepedigree.com and they have a button to see the colors of the dogs. If you have akc pedigree the colors of the dogs should be listed. But like cp you may need to go back in the pedigree to find the creams or whites or apricots.


Well, I have the names of both his parents so it's not hard to get pedigree. I'll look it up. I'm just wondering about genetics because it's hard for me to grasp and I want to learn.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KPoos said:


> Well, I have the names of both his parents so it's not hard to get pedigree. I'll look it up. I'm just wondering about genetics because it's hard for me to grasp and I want to learn.


Ok Kpoos Well the link I gave you will explain it click on part one 
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/BasGen.html

Basically Black is dominate and will mask a recessive color such as cream. I am not sure about blue being dominant over cream but i am going to say it probably is.( some one can chime in) Looks at the third square on that link. 
basically this square is describing a lab breeding but if you just imagine The E lotus gene ( which is for cream, white and red) 

The parents could be BBEe , BBEE , BbEe, BbEE this is why the had cream pups.


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

So cream is not white and white is not dominate?


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## Poodlepal (Nov 1, 2009)

Blue is simply a dilution of Black, as is Silver.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

What tests should you take if you want to know exactly what colors your dog carries? I know there are places like this http://www.vetdnacenter.com/canine-dna-coat-color.html where you can test your dog, but how do you know which color tests to try? Aren't there several different ones? B locus d locus and so on. I'm sure you don't have to test for each one OR do you?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

There are a number of companies out there that are doing color testing and some of them are dodgy. Go with Vetgen. Good reputation; solid, accurate results.

http://www.vetgen.com/


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## TinyPoodles (Nov 25, 2009)

*Color*

Just keep in mind that there is no specific/individual test for cream, white, apricot or red. 

They will test for them as a group which DDC labels "yellow" and Vetgen labels "yellow". 

I know a breeder that thinks their black poodle carries red gene just because it DNA color tested positive for eeBB. Not true. That only means that that black poodle is Possibly carrying apricot, OR carrying red, OR carrying white, OR carrying cream OR... even carrying apricot, cream, white and red. 

So these DNA tests are only good if you know specifically what you wish to test to find out and if those results will even help you with your breeding plans.

I like to see photos of the dogs in a pedigree for at least 3 generations as that tells me a lot about colour and type. Of course I'm sure everyone would want to see at least a 5 generation pedigree... especially since some colours can still come through from that far back if on both sides especially.


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

cbrand said:


> There are a number of companies out there that are doing color testing and some of them are dodgy. Go with Vetgen. Good reputation; solid, accurate results.
> 
> http://www.vetgen.com/


I am looking at vetgen and since my dog is black and both parents are black then the only test I would need to find out what colors she carries would be "b" and "e" since black is dominant. Is this correct or would I also need the "ay" or "k"?


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## spoos4us (Sep 3, 2009)

Hi Kalamama I just color tested my spoos. Before I sent my test kits back to vetgen I called and talked with a lady named Ann she answered all of my questions You might want to call her


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

spoos4us said:


> Hi Kalamama I just color tested my spoos. Before I sent my test kits back to vetgen I called and talked with a lady named Ann she answered all of my questions You might want to call her


Thanks spoos4us! I actually just ordered the vwd and ne test from vetgen and spoke with someone briefly(didn't catch her name) about color testing. She suggested I start with the b and e since my girl is black. I did not order the color tests yet as I have a LONG way to go before I even consider breeding her. She is still a pup and has not even started in the ring yet. I am doing the health testing that I can little by little but I will wait on the color. It is so fun learning about how all of it works though. Did you find anything interesting with your results?


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Wow this pretty much all goes over my head. lol. I have a question, and I guess this would be the best thread to ask it in. So browns are suppose to be the only color that carries the brown points, and people normally breed them with blacks, right? What if a black, who carries brown genes because of this, was bred to a white?


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## spoos4us (Sep 3, 2009)

We are still waiting for results. We tested for vwd ne color and profile


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## Harmony (Dec 18, 2009)

You get blues when you have blacks that carry cream. Because creams almost always have a dilution factor. Have you ever seen a cream puppy that didn't fade to white. (or at least light cream)


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Any updates spoos4us ?


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## KalaMama (Nov 20, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> Any updates spoos4us ?


I know you weren't asking me, but I think I ordered my test after spoos4us and I have my results. I did not do the color testing. I did the NE and VWD. They were very quick and I also chose to add the $7.50 to register with OFA, and I received both of my OFA certificates for the testing today. It still isn't coming up on OFA yet, but my DM test is on OFA(but it was done by OFA). I am interested to see how the color results came out as well, spoos4us?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

KalaMama said:


> I know you weren't asking me, but I think I ordered my test after spoos4us and I have my results. I did not do the color testing. I did the NE and VWD. They were very quick and I also chose to add the $7.50 to register with OFA, and I received both of my OFA certificates for the testing today. It still isn't coming up on OFA yet, but my DM test is on OFA(but it was done by OFA). I am interested to see how the color results came out as well, spoos4us?


No problem Kalamama 

Thats good you did some health test, We are going to take enzo to this clinic soon we FINALLY found a vet that does OFA ( a friend told use the doctors name but i forgot so I had to find it my self again )


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

I didn't even know color tests existed. Amazing! 

I have a related question but dont want to steal the thread. If a white and a brown had pups would there be a good chance of white pups having liver points? What about a brown with a silver? There is a local lady with a brown dog who also has a cream/white bitch and a silver bitch and intends to breed them.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Mercury's Mom said:


> I didn't even know color tests existed. Amazing!
> 
> I have a related question but dont want to steal the thread. If a white and a brown had pups would there be a good chance of white pups having liver points? What about a brown with a silver? There is a local lady with a brown dog who also has a cream/white bitch and a silver bitch and intends to breed them.


If the white dog has brown in the back ground and the brown dog has white in its back ground as well then yes some liver noses can come out. If the white dog already has a liver nose then yes most likely some liver nosed pups

As for the silver and browns you would get silver beige i believe.


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## Mercury's Mom (Dec 6, 2009)

Thanks. What is the purpose of the color tests? Can one not look at a dog's pedigree to find out the colors in the dog's background?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

Mercury's Mom said:


> Thanks. What is the purpose of the color tests? Can one not look at a dog's pedigree to find out the colors in the dog's background?


Yes you can see info in peds , If your breeding blacks and want to see if they carry the Dilute gene for blue and brown this is where you want to check.

I was going to test Enzo but I think i researched enough to know what he was already


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

A good link that explains the basic of color breeding in Poodles.
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/colorbreedinginpoodles.html


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## Moxie (Jan 25, 2010)

roxy25 said:


> CP is right both parents had to have cream in their background
> 
> http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/genetics/genetics.html


OHH Roxy25 this is a GREAT LINK and READ,I'm saving it!!!THANK YOU!!!


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

John Armstrong's, Color Genes in the Poodles, http://www.canine-genetics.com/pdlcolor.html


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

Mercury's Mom said:


> I didn't even know color tests existed. Amazing!
> 
> I have a related question but dont want to steal the thread. If a white and a brown had pups would there be a good chance of white pups having liver points? What about a brown with a silver? There is a local lady with a brown dog who also has a cream/white bitch and a silver bitch and intends to breed them.


Cream/Brown..... If the Brown carries Cream then you will get Cream Poodles with liver pigment. If the Brown carries no Cream and the Cream dog carries no Brown but has a black nose then you will get all Black puppies.

Brown/Silver ..... If the Silver carries no Brown or Cream then all the puppies will be Black or Blue. Any Browns will likely be Silver Beige.


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