# I need some insight regarding the amount people pay for standard poodles!



## Crewsinn (Jun 25, 2012)

I recently looked through some of the top-commented posts on the forum and came across one asking how much people paid for their poodles. I was shocked to see that it's not uncommon to pay between $1k-$2k for a standard. 

My brother was desperate for a standard poodle and there was only one at the nearby shelter. There were many applicants for the spoo and my brother didn't get him, so he desperately searched online. I found someone with a litter and they were asking $250. My brother drove 2 hours to meet the individual and she had papers for him puppy and everything. He can be registered after being neutered. 

What makes him different from a much more expensive poodle? He's a little over a year old now and his only health issue has been an ear infection. Should I be worried about future health concerns? Sorry if this is a dumb question, I just figure there must be some difference. 

As a sidenote:
I completely understand paying high prices for a pet that you'll be spending years of your life with, please don't think I'm being judgmental at all!


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## frankgrimes (Nov 28, 2011)

It really depends where you live. Where I am there are very few Poodles. There are next to none as far as used poodles (rehoming privately or through rescues). Basic supply and demand. As far as "quality" of what you're getting for money? I will let the forums experts answer that one for you :act-up: I'm just a regular dog owner.


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## Charles Barkley (Apr 10, 2013)

I have been reading a lot of other people mention on here that a lot of the problems that can affect any dog sometimes don't show up until they are over a year old, not to worry you that you could have a potential problem with your brothers spoo but as another owner of a byb tpoo... always wondering in the back of your mind whether your poodle with have problems in the future because you aren't aware of their lineage or the fact they weren't bred to better the breed but for money, is very scary... hense why reputable breeders charge a lot for a living animal that they want to make sure goes to a loving home as they are a huge responsibility and in the end the money is well worth it. And knowing for sure what your dogs temparment is going to be like and what to expect, and also having the breeder there to help you out (their role as a responsible breeder) is very reassuring when you are taking a puppy or older dog home  my next puppy will def be from a reputable breeder and no amount of money will bother me, and trust me I do not have money just to throw around, I just want to have that support and reassurance 

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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

My boy came from a reputable breeder, fully tested health stock (hips, eyes, vwd, elbows, ect), well researched pedigree, sound temperaments. He was $1400 with $100 refunded upon neuter and $50 refunded for every title I get on him.

My female was free, adopted at 2 years old. She's from complete byb lines, has had a small seizure, a full littermate has bloated, another has epilepsy, and a cousin has addisons disease.

Pick your poison.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Actually, standard poodles here are usually a little over 2K....

Fluffyspoos, I like the way your breeder encouraged the titles.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i'm looking for a quality toy (not immediately) and the prices are in the same range. the question really is not the price, but whether the breeder can deliver the promised quality for the price. because if he/she can, the dog should have a wonderful temperament and be healthy throughout a long life. a blessing we would wish for any family member.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I agree with Fluffyspoos, Pick your poison. A cheap dog doesn't necessarily mean an unhealthy dog but it has a much higher chance of it. And an expensive dog doesn't necessarily mean a super healthy dog. Do research on the breeder you choose no matter the price. There are BYB Spoos going for $2,000-$4,000 in my area but then there are some very well breed Spoos with all the proper testing going for $600-$1,500. Where I live the BYB can easily get away with charging that much because people are ignorant and don't ask questions.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I hope that this isn't taken the wrong way, but really the price of a dog is a drop in the bucket compared to the costs of caring for it - grooming, training, supplies, VET BILLS
I'm not saying that you need to be rich to have a poodle, but you do need to prioritize - can you bare to skip the nice vacation, the latest Ipad, new clothes, a new car? Then you can probably afford a poodle - but if you care enough to skip all of those things and get a dog instead, wouldn't you want to start out with the best dog that you possibly can?


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

All the breeders I researched, from NY to N.C, that have what I consider quality Spoos were $1800 on up. I only considered breeders who breed on a limited basis, show their dogs, and do complete health testing on both sire and dam. I understand $250 sounds like a great deal but that, to me, screams of BYB. Can you get a healthy dog from a BYB? Sure, Can you get a dog with problems from a breeder who meets my criteria? Sure. I'm just trying to stack the odds in my favor. 

I look at it like this: Say you needed a ride somewhere a through some pretty congested area and you could choose between to drivers. Driver A has never driven or been trained to drive. Driver B has had a license for 20 years, never crashed. Who would you choose? Could driver A get you there safe? Sure. Could driver B have his first crash? Sure. Just going with the odds.


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

PoodleRick said:


> All the breeders I researched, from NY to N.C, that have what I consider quality Spoos were $1800 on up. I only considered breeders who breed on a limited basis, show their dogs, and do complete health testing on both sire and dam. I understand $250 sounds like a great deal but that, to me, screams of BYB. Can you get a healthy dog from a BYB? Sure, Can you get a dog with problems from a breeder who meets my criteria? Sure. I'm just trying to stack the odds in my favor.
> 
> I look at it like this: Say you needed a ride somewhere a through some pretty congested area and you could choose between to drivers. Driver A has never driven or been trained to drive. Driver B has had a license for 20 years, never crashed. Who would you choose? Could driver A get you there safe? Sure. Could driver B have his first crash? Sure. Just going with the odds.


Amen PoodleRick... I've never heard of a reputable breeder charging $250 for a health tested, good quality dog. I can see paying that as an adoption fee for a shelter dog... but BYBs don't really care how much they make as long as they get money for the dog. My brother and his wife was looking for a Jack Russell. They stumbled upon a breeder asking $2000 for a "purebred" "health-tested" Jack Russell... papers etc., so my sister-in-law told him it was way too much and that her husband would kill her if she spent that much on a dog... His reply: "Ok, lets make it $1200". She politely declined. Three days later he called her back and told her $200 for the dog!!!! They went and picked up the dog. After she went to pick up the dog and my brother finally got to see the dog he realized that it wasn't even a purebred Jack Russell... it was some kind of mutt that resembled a Jack Russell.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

PonkiPoodles said:


> Amen PoodleRick... I've never heard of a reputable breeder charging $250 for a health tested, good quality dog. I can see paying that as an adoption fee for a shelter dog... but BYBs don't really care how much they make as long as they get money for the dog. My brother and his wife was looking for a Jack Russell. They stumbled upon a breeder asking $2000 for a "purebred" "health-tested" Jack Russell... papers etc., so my sister-in-law told him it was way too much and that her husband would kill her if she spent that much on a dog... His reply: "Ok, lets make it $1200". She politely declined. Three days later he called her back and told her $200 for the dog!!!! *They went and picked up the dog. After she went to pick up the dog and my brother finally got to see the dog he realized that it wasn't even a purebred Jack Russell... it was some kind of mutt that resembled a Jack Russell.*



Ouch.

2 grand does seem like a lot to pay but I think it's also breed specific. My brother always gets very high quality Goldens and he's never paid more than $1000. But there are lots of Goldens around. One of my co-workers here at the Gallery has a Newfoundland and he says $6000 is pretty common for one of those from a top breeder. It's all relative. In that light $2000 for a Poodle is a bargain.

Rick


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

I bought my standard poodle for $700, which I thought was a lot of money...she has AKC papers from both parents and dad is from a champion line. I don't know about mom, but met her in person and she had very good temperament. However, my puppy has a stubborn streak and is very pushy. She gets frustrated easily and doesn't seem to want to please me as much as I have read about other poodles. Who knows, it's only been a month since I had her. Maybe she will get better... In retrospect, knowing what I know now from reading everything from PF, I would have done my research more on the breeders.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It costs a _lot_ of money and requires a lot of time and knowledge to responsibly plan, breed, and raise a litter of standard poodle puppies. For that reason, you just won't find a responsible breeder charging $250 for a litter that they have planned and put their heart and soul into. At that amount, most breeders will have spent much more than they get back from the costs involved in breeding and raising the litter. The goal is not to make money as a responsible breeder, but the cost of the puppies does reflect the money spent and ideally a breeder won't be _too_ far in the hole after breeding and raising a litter...

$1,500-$2,000 is average for a companion standard poodle from a reputable breeder in my area.


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## katbrat (May 8, 2011)

We had no idea what a spoo would cost when we started researching. We just knew that we wanted a standard poodle, there were no spoo breaders where we lived and honestly, Lexi's breeder was the first and only one we contacted. I had looked online at a breeder in Canada but we were intimidated with the idea of bringing a dog across the boarder. Knowing what I know now, I would not let that deter me. While we had never dealt with a breeder before, the application we filled out didn't seem crazy to me. The stipulations in our agreement to me said "common sence." All I knew going into this venture was we wanted the best chance of having a well adjusted, healthy dog who could be a part of our family for many years to come. If that came with a price tag most would find too high, so be it.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

PoodleRick said:


> Ouch.
> 
> 2 grand does seem like a lot to pay but I think it's also breed specific. My brother always gets very high quality Goldens and he's never paid more than $1000. But there are lots of Goldens around. One of my co-workers here at the Gallery has a Newfoundland and he says $6000 is pretty common for one of those from a top breeder. It's all relative. In that light $2000 for a Poodle is a bargain.
> 
> Rick


Good point Rick - part of the issue of price is always going to be market demand.
What other explanation could there be that the average price of Toy Poodles is about $500 less then Standard Poodles, when Toys have so much smaller litters (meaning the "cost per puppy" would be much higher to a Toy Breeder then a Standard breeder)- yet the Toy gets a lower price then a Standard!


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## MTWaggin (Nov 17, 2010)

As you are reading in the other responses, you get what you pay for most of the time. The going rate across the country for standards will be over (sometimes well over) $1,000. That said just because they charge a lot doesn't mean quality (oh let's talk about the doodles that cost more than a well bred prebred poodle) but on the flip side if they are bargain basement prices you know they aren't doing much of the testing and work in their breeding that should be done. Do your research! I got my first weimeraner from a byb - paid $300 and yes she and her parents were AKC registered (papered). Lost her at 3 because of health issues that are genetically passed on.

People selling $250 puppies are the bane of responsible breeders everywhere....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Remember, "papered" doesn't mean much...all it requires is two purebred, full AKC registered parents and does NOT guarantee any sort of quality. It is the very very minimum and yes you should RUN if a puppy is not registerable. But just because the puppy is registerable does NOT mean the puppy is from a responsible breeder nor does it guarantee any sort of quality. You may still want to run...


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> It costs a _lot_ of money and requires a lot of time and knowledge to responsibly plan, breed, and raise a litter of standard poodle puppies. For that reason, you just won't find a responsible breeder charging $250 for a litter that they have planned and put their heart and soul into. At that amount, most breeders will have spent much more than they get back from the costs involved in breeding and raising the litter. The goal is not to make money as a responsible breeder, but the cost of the puppies does reflect the money spent and ideally a breeder won't be _too_ far in the whole after breeding and raising a litter...


Agreed. My breeder told me it costs her about $10,000 to get her dogs fully health tested and all the way to championship. Some more some less depending how long it takes to get to champion status. That's a lot of travel expenses for the dogs and the entry and handler fees on top of the vet and testing bills.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh, and just a vent - this conversation reminds me of a little tiff that I had with somebody on facebook about 6 months ago - I said something to the effect of "nobody should seek a puppy from a pet store or byb, and only from a reputable show breeder, when this woman, who happens to be a Vet Tech, jumped in with "What, so you are saying that ONLY people who can afford to pay huge prices should be allowed to have a dog? That means, my dog, that I got for $100.00 from somebody who just decided to let their 2 pets have puppies, should not exist?!"
I replied, well he got very lucky with you - being a Vet Tech, loving dogs, and having access to free Vet care, but typically the person who truly can ONLY afford $100 for a dog, can't afford to properly care for it, so no, nobody should be breeding "$100 puppies, for people who can't afford more". 
Not to say that only rich people can afford a well bred dog, it's simply how you choose to utilize your discretionary income!

* But, I have to say that I've really enjoyed looking at the pictures that She has posted on her wall of her 3 week trip to England, her cruise to the Bahamas, her Cruise to Canada, and several other nice local jaunts - it was entertaining to get a look at those fun times as I stay home, taking care of my 2 elderly poodles, waiting for my Reputable Breeder to make my perfect puppy match!*


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

So the puppy should be registered prior to coming home with you? Sorry, I don't know much about this stuff, learning as I go...to be honest, I never did any research on the breeders of the puppies I have gotten in the past. I've had three amazing dogs from what's so-call byb's, and I was lucky enough that all three did not have major, or even minor health problems, even my 200lb. Mastiff lived to be 11 years old when the breed's lifespan was supposed to be 7-9 years. No health problems whatsoever. He eventually died of old age. :angel:He was a great dog, so loving, although not the smartest...having said that, I was ignorant and didn't know there was so much involved in buying a dog. Now that I know what I know, I would definitely research a lot more before I bring home another dog. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the two new puppies I got wont have major health issues...


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

In the US, the litter will be registered but the puppy will generally be individually registered by the owner after coming home. I do believe there is an option for the breeder to individually register the puppies before going home, though, less commonly done. In Canada, the puppy will - I believe - be individually registered by the breeder before coming home. Correct me if I am wrong.


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Not to say that only rich people can afford a well bred dog, it's simply how you choose to utilize your discretionary income!
> 
> * But, I have to say that I've really enjoyed looking at the pictures that She has posted on her wall of her 3 week trip to England, her cruise to the Bahamas, her Cruise to Canada, and several other nice local jaunts - it was entertaining to get a look at those fun times as I stay home, taking care of my 2 elderly poodles, waiting for my Reputable Breeder to make my perfect puppy match!*


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jcjshelton said:


> So the puppy should be registered prior to coming home with you? * No, the puppies parents should be AKC registered (in the US), and the litter is registered with the AKC - puppy should come with papers for you to register the individual puppy (limited, no-breeding registration for pet quality). For me, since I had no plans to compete in AKC events, I never bothered to register my last two. *Sorry, I don't know much about this stuff, learning as I go...to be honest, I never did any research on the breeders of the puppies I have gotten in the past. I've had three amazing dogs from what's so-call byb's, and I was lucky enough that all three did not have major, or even minor health problems, even my 200lb. Mastiff lived to be 11 years old when the breed's lifespan was supposed to be 7-9 years. No health problems whatsoever. He eventually died of old age. :angel:He was a great dog, so loving, although not the smartest...having said that, I was ignorant and didn't know there was so much involved in buying a dog. Now that I know what I know, I would definitely research a lot more before I bring home another dog. I am keeping my fingers crossed that the two new puppies I got wont have major health issues...


Everyone has to start somewhere - my first poodle was from an ad in the paper that said "black teacup poodle" - it was only after I had fallen madly in love, and lost her, that I did my research and found out that I'd had total blind luck - she just happened to be from the BEST lines from a hobby breeder with one Show Poodle, whose first litter had this one tiny puppy! 
But, I soon learned that it was going to take plenty of time, effort, money and patience , to insure that I would always be so lucky with the poodles that I would have there after!


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

I have minis not standards, paid $1200 for the first and $1500 for the second. I consider that cheap, from an established good breeder who is well known here. I would have paid more, especially since this is just about the only breeder in the western us who doesn't dock tails.

Incidentally, the highest prices I've seen are from breeders I don't trust. The breeders I like, don't seem to charge as much as I think they could. I wonder how breeders can even make the numbers work, this does not seem to be a high profit margin industry, especially the good breeders who don't produce that many litters.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

So I got the AKC pprs for the parents, but nothing for my puppy. Although I am not planning to show or breed, I just want a companion, should I ask the breeder anyway about whether the litter is registered, and ask for the paperwork just for verification purposes?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

taem said:


> I have minis not standards, paid $1200 for the first and $1500 for the second. I consider that cheap, from an established good breeder who is well known here. I would have paid more, especially since this is just about the only breeder in the western us who doesn't dock tails.
> 
> *Incidentally, the highest prices I've seen are from breeders I don't trust. The breeders I like, don't seem to charge as much as I think they could. I wonder how breeders can even make the numbers work, this does not seem to be a high profit margin industry, especially the good breeders who don't produce that many litters.*




That is so true! I could pay $3,000 - $5,000 for a puppy from a "teacup poodle breeder", but the #1 Show Breeder in the country charges me $1,500 for an under sized puppy!


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## PonkiPoodles (Feb 25, 2009)

Tiny Poodles said:


> [/B]
> 
> That is so true! I could pay $3,000 - $5,000 for a puppy from a "teacup poodle breeder", but the #1 Show Breeder in the country charges me $1,500 for an under sized puppy!


That is because the true reputable breeders breeding quality #1 Show dogs are not in it for the money... but for the passion of the breed. They don't think about 'balancing' their check book at the end of each litter. They breed for themselves and the betterment of the breed.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Jcjshelton said:


> So I got the AKC pprs for the parents, but nothing for my puppy. Although I am not planning to show or breed, I just want a companion, should I ask the breeder anyway about whether the litter is registered, and ask for the paperwork just for verification purposes?


You could ask, but really what is the point if you don't plan to show or breed?

This is purely a guess, but perhaps if there were only pet quality puppies in the litter, the breeder decided not to waste money registering it, and figured that showing you who the Sire and Dam were, was all that you would need for a pet?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

And by the way, the reason that I stopped registering my puppies was that I found out that the AKC makes all the info about dogs that you have registered available to the public - somebody who got mad at me on a public message board went and looked up my dog on the AKC site, and I was so pissed - never registered a dog again!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Jcjshelton said:


> So I got the AKC pprs for the parents, but nothing for my puppy. Although I am not planning to show or breed, I just want a companion, should I ask the breeder anyway about whether the litter is registered, and ask for the paperwork just for verification purposes?


All responsible breeders will register their litter with the AKC. The majority of breeders, period, will register their puppies with the AKC if they are allowed to do so. The main reason a breeder would not register the litter is if one or both parents were on limited registration and therefore not supposed to be bred. This would mean the offspring is ineligible for AKC reg.

Did you sign a contract? Can you refer back to it? Many responsible breeders will withhold papers until proof of spay/neuter. I am very surprised you were not given a pedigree of the puppy. I would certainly wonder if one or both of the parents were sold on limited registration and therefore not supposed to be bred.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Jcjshelton said:


> So I got the AKC pprs for the parents, but nothing for my puppy. Although I am not planning to show or breed, I just want a companion, should I ask the breeder anyway about whether the litter is registered, and ask for the paperwork just for verification purposes?


All responsible breeders will register their litter with the AKC. The majority of breeders, period, will register their puppies with the AKC if they are allowed to do so. The main reason a breeder would not register the litter is if one or both parents were on limited registration and therefore not supposed to be bred. This would mean the offspring is ineligible for AKC reg.

Did you sign a contract? Can you refer back to it? Many responsible breeders will withhold papers until proof of spay/neuter.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> All responsible breeders will register their litter with the AKC. The majority of breeders, period, will register their puppies with the AKC if they are allowed to do so. * The main reason a breeder would not register the litter is if one or both parents were on limited registration and therefore not supposed to be bred. This would mean the offspring is ineligible for AKC reg.*
> Did you sign a contract? Can you refer back to it? Many responsible breeders will withhold papers until proof of spay/neuter. I am very surprised you were not given a pedigree of the puppy. I would certainly wonder if one or both of the parents were sold on limited registration and therefore not supposed to be bred.


Good point, I never thought of that - but, she did say that she had copies of both of the parents papers, so she would know if the parents are on limited or full registration.
What reason would the breeder have for registering the litter if all of the pups in the litter are pet quality (which can happen often in Toy's which might only have 1 or 2 puppies in a litter)?


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

The breeder did ask me if I plan to breed the puppy, and I said absolutely not...then she went and got the papers of the parents but with no registration forms for my puppy. I didn't care/ think to ask at the time because I didn't know, plus I wasn't going to breed or show anyways...I saw Lexie and her bouncy personality and just couldn't say no...definitely an impulse buy...

I will text her and see what she says...

I didn't sign a contract either.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Good point, I never thought of that - but, she did say that she had copies of both of the parents papers, so she would know if the parents are on limited or full registration.
> What reason would the breeder have for registering the litter if all of the pups in the litter are pet quality (which can happen often in Toy's which might only have 1 or 2 puppies in a litter)?


More appropriately, what reason would a breeder have for _not_ registering a litter? Is the litter ineligible for registration? Are they trying to hide litters from AKC to avoid inspection? 

It would cost a whopping $29 to register a litter of two puppies. For a breeder who has spent well over one to two thousand dollars on health testing and other breeding expenses alone, this is nothing but pennies. It would be very _odd_ for a responsible breeder to not want AKC documented proof of their litter, even if only one or two pet quality puppies was the result. Also, in order to ever qualify as a Breeder of Merit, 100% of a breeder's litters must be AKC registered.

Any breeder who belongs to PCA or any of its affiliated clubs is required to be in agreement with the PCA code of ethics, which states: "5. _Each member of PCA who is a breeder will keep accurate records of breeding as per American Kennel Club Rules and Regulations, pedigrees and registrations._" Also, in Canada with the Canadian Kennel Club, it is required that breeders not only register every single litter, but that each puppy is individually registered by a certain age. 

Essentially, it is a given that any puppy sold from a responsible breeder will be from an AKC registered litter and will be able to be individually registered by the owner with the AKC. Pet/companions will be sold with limited AKC registration and breeding/show quality will be sold with full AKC registration. It is a huge red/yellow flag if this is not the case.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation!



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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

I just text her. Don't know if I I will get a reply though. We will have to see! I am learning something new every day! Hanks to the knowledgable people of PF! Thanks!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Does the akc do inspections based upon the number of puppies that they produce? Because Tangee,s breeder was not that large scale, but I remember her being miffed that I had not registered Tangee because she was having an AkC inspection and wanted give them her papers- though I do not see why they would fault her when she registered the litter and the customer did not register the puppy. But anyhow - do they really do inspections based upon the number of puppies produced, because I am pretty sure that she was only in the 10 litter a year range...


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> You could ask, but really what is the point if you don't plan to show or breed?


Yeah. My pups' breeder includes akc reg as a part of the purchase, and I registered Sydney, but it's pointless really. I don't think I'm going to register Hugo. It's not huge bucks but I'll tell the breeder to go have a pizza and beer with it or something.

Also, seems like all the puppy mill pups are akc registered. I've always thought akc could do a better job using its reg process to identify mills. Like if someone is breeding a 9 month dam, and then producing 2 litters a year with that pup every year, shouldn't that be a red flag? I don't really know how the process works though. And I guess akc would never give up any money.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

taem said:


> mething.
> 
> Also, seems like all the puppy mill pups are akc registered. I've always thought akc could do a better job using its reg process to identify mills. Like if someone is breeding a 9 month dam, and then producing 2 litters a year with that pup every year, shouldn't that be a red flag? I don't really know how the process works though. And I guess akc would never give up any money.



Definitely a red flag! This is why it's important to be an educated buyer. AKC is a registering and record keeping body, not a guarantee of the breeder's ethics.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

After reading some of these posts, just wanted to add that health concerns are not the only reason you would go to a reputable breeder. There should be many differences, beyond health, of a pup from a good breeder --- temperament, being one of the most important. I can honestly say in my 30 years of owning poodles (or being owned by THEM), Sunny is my first well-bred dog and I just can't begin to tell you the differences -- now don't assume that my previous were all crazy dogs, they weren't, but temperament / breed standard really does go a long way. Even though Sunny's start with me was a little bumpy, his temperament carried him through and I could only imagine how my previous 2 might have dealt with so much change.

So, I think you need to open up the discussion beyond health alone - although that is a key component, too.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I have purchased very few dogs in my life, 3 to be exact. All the rest have been rescues, from the pound, a friend of a friend, found on the street ect. All have lived long healthy lives, never been sick. I do feed good food, I don't do heart worm meds, and the only shots I give is rabies. So maybe that has something to do with my good luck... When I wanted a poodle, my sister that shows and trains dogs said to me, " Please listen to me, YOU DO NOT WANT A BARGIN POODLE! They have lots of health problems and most of the ones I see are CRAZY. So I went on the hunt for a well bred, health tested , adult female and purchased Carley. She was almost 7 years old and I paid $800 for her. She has been worth every cent. Stella was a return to the same breeder and I got her for free. She was purchased for $2000 as a puppy. The price around here is $800- $2500 for a nice pup.


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

Puppy mill puppies are probably not AKC registered. Puppy mills/BYB and the like have turned to other pet registries ever since AKC started their "Frequent Sire" program and they WILL inspect your premises if you have x number of litters or more (not sure of the number) So, most puppies I see in the paper are CKC, Continental KC; APR, American Pet Registry and the like. AKC registration numbers have dropped significantly due to the rules and policies they have implemented the last 10 years or so.


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

I paid between the 1000 -2000 mark for my dog. What I paid for was the champion blood lines, the health testing papers and the time and research my breeder has put into his line. I actually got a bargain for my girl because I also ended up with a show prospect for 1000 less then what he was selling he show prospects for. The friendship I also gained with the breeder and the fact that even though I applied for a pet quality puppy, he felt me and one of his show prospects was the perfect fit, and now I'm also learning how to show and have learned so much from the experience. 

I feel that the amount I spent on my girl was nothing compared to what I have gained in the experience


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## cindyreef (Sep 28, 2012)

This is a long thread and I have to admit I only skimmed through it. But I have to say that price does not always dictate what your dog will be. Better chance of no diseases and a show dog with proven lineage ( and more money). But there are lots of dogs allot cheaper that could be just as nice. Just not as common. Do your research and buy what you can afford. It will still be a loving and loyal companion. 
I have a spoo that was $1000 cheaper than an acquaintance of mine. I paid 1500. She got hers through a breeder that has a big reputation. Her dog has had some minor health concerns. Hard to train and keep under control. She is very capable of training him. (not her first spoo). But she loves how mine is so laid back, controllable, smarter and easier to train. They are the same size, 27 1/2" , same age 14 months and equal conformation. So you never really know for sure what you will get but a good probability.
Im just trying to say that a cheaper and even a free spoo can be wonderful too. They all will love you right to death. 

Heck, I grew up with mutts and I loved every minute with them.


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## ItzaClip (Dec 1, 2010)

And it really depends on you. I am very particular about what I want fed, trained, exposed, how often bred, what for, health testing. Breeder interrogating me, etc plus I plan on having a relationship with breeder for next 15 years so I have to be comfortable. 
After waiting for my preferred breeder and it just not working out (one litter was all blue/silver beige, and one didn't catch) I didn't want to wait until winter, so I sadly informed her that I had to find second choice. Well I put my deposit down on white boy (no girls available), and ended up losing my deposit when my preferred breeder had white female (my dream dog) that she was going to keep but she carry the "brown gene " and she let me take her. So it was so worth it to me to get my white girl from my preferred breeder whom I have pestered for 3 years that she cost me an additional $500. I Don't regret a bit. Heck I groom a labradoodle that was $3500!


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## Wilbur5 (Jan 25, 2012)

I think being patient is key. I researched a long time, then started looking into rescues and breeders. My patience paid off. Through word of mouth, I found my guy. He came from champion lines and breeders that did everything right. The owners got a divorce and the dogs were split up. I guess the divorce was extremely ugly and the husband became depressed and quit being as diligent as he should be with the dogs he kept, so when his adult female became pregnant and had her puppies, he took care of them health wise, but didn;t do anything else with them. A friend of his talked him into letting her find good homes for the puppies and that is how I ended up with Gibbs for $250 (basically an adoption fee). 

I have had absolutey no health issues with him. We have had to overcome some social issues, but some of those were due to myself. As much research as I did was not enough to prepare me for the intelligence (different than any other breed I have ever seen) and sensitivity to emotions/moods that poodles have. I absolutely LOVE both of those qualities!


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

Tiny Poodles, I'm not disagreeing with you about the cost of the toys. That very well may be the case. But my breeder actually charges less for her standards then her toys. I think it is the smaller litters you mentioned. She may be an exception to the rule though.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

N2Mischief said:


> Tiny Poodles, I'm not disagreeing with you about the cost of the toys. That very well may be the case. But my breeder actually charges less for her standards then her toys. I think it is the smaller litters you mentioned. She may be an exception to the rule though.


I don't know of any breeders who have both - and your breeder makes a lot of sense, but she probably only does that because she has both, and she can compare the costs- was just going by what folks seem to report in general - that Toy's range from $800 - $1,500, and that Standards range from $1,000 - $2,500 
(from reputable Show Breeders), which is probably driven by market demand.

At least around here, I see tons of puppy mill/backyard breeder Toy Poodles, but just about every Standard Poodle that I see has nice conformation, so I'm thinking that Standard's are not favored by the "for profit" breeders, are not readily available in pet stores, so perhaps the general public see's them as a "rarer breed", worth paying more for, while a reputable Toy Breeder has folks comparing their prices to pet shops (without fully understanding the difference in quality), so that drives the price down?


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I actually know of some breeers that have all 3 sizes, and I don't think there's a ton of difference in the pricing of the dogs. I may have to check and report back.

Tiny Poodle: I would not think spoos are considered a "rarer" breed; as most of the spoos were the variety initially used for doodles and we know how many of them there are around. I would say, however, that generally the market drives the price, and that would go with more "unique" and unusual colors that are more the rage, too.

I remember speaking to a very top breeder who had a young adult (maybe 2 or 3) for sale. It was a finished champ and they were looking for a pet home and I don't recall all the circumstances. However they still wanted almost $3K for the poodle --- and it was a mini I believe. So, I think it's hard to generalize.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

So my breeder never got back to me after I texted her. Maybe I pissed her off with so many questions after the fact...or maybe she doesn't bother wasting her time answering my questions since I have already bought Lexie, and she told me that I was getting a good deal after all when I got her. I guess who really cares at this point...I mean I love that girl! And my vet couldn't stop ranting about how pretty she is and how healthy she looks. He said the breeder sold me a good dog, so I should just consider myself lucky that I got her for a fraction of the cost and from a byb, right?

Btw, how do you differentiate between byb's and regular breeders?


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## hunny518 (Jun 5, 2012)

Jcjshelton said:


> So my breeder never got back to me after I texted her. Maybe I pissed her off with so many questions after the fact...or maybe she doesn't bother wasting her time answering my questions since I have already bought Lexie, and she told me that I was getting a good deal after all when I got her. I guess who really cares at this point...I mean I love that girl! And my vet couldn't stop ranting about how pretty she is and how healthy she looks. He said the breeder sold me a good dog, so I should just consider myself lucky that I got her for a fraction of the cost and from a byb, right?
> 
> Btw, how do you differentiate between byb's and regular breeders?


By research. You check their references and follow up on their health testing. It's obvious when it comes to reputable breeders because not only are they eager to show you what they have put into their breeding program, they also will drill you with questions because they aren't trying to sell of a litter, they are trying to place their puppies with responsible owners who will raise them well and give them what they need, also less risk of them being returned to them. Most byb are just trying to make money and will sell to the first person who gives them the cash.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Jcjshelton said:


> Btw, how do you differentiate between byb's and regular breeders?


Regular breeders would answer your email posthaste....ByB...would ignore it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

One of the main differences between a BYB and a reputable breeder is that a BYB is generally interested in producing puppies while a reputable breeder is focused on breeding for the _betterment of the breed. _ This means that they have the future of the breed in mind when they carefully plan each breeding and carefully consider the pedigree, known issues in the line, utilize available health testing and _use_ that information to help plan breedings. 

A reputable breeder has very important goals in his or her breeding plan and these goals involve bettering the future generations of poodles. A reputable breeder has dedicated much time and research to understanding genetics as it applies to breeding, and is up to date on current research on health issues in the breed and has put a lot of thought into considering how to breed away from these health issues. A responsible breeder is very familiar with the breed standard and is breeding for health and temperament, and to improve structure and conformation in their dogs. 

Reputable breeders are generally involved in the breed in ways other than simply..._breeding_. This means involvement in any number of events including conformation and performance activities like obedience, rally, agility, etc. They may belong to breed clubs as well. This helps them stay informed and educated as breeders and helps them evaluate their own dogs and breeding program better.

As a puppy buyer, when you are looking for a reputable breeder, you will find that reputable breeders will very carefully screen potential homes. All companion puppies will be sold on a contract with limited AKC registration. The breeder will provide proof of all health testing on dam and sire and will provide a health guarantee for a minimum of two years for genetic conditions. This is because while responsible breeders do everything they can to avoid producing health issues in their puppies, things can still happen. 

Reputable breeders are _invested_ in the breed and will also provide lifelong support to puppy buyers. 

I do think it is important to realize that there are many shades of gray in between a BYB and a reputable breeder.


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

I see anywhere from $350 for a rehoming or rescue situation to $4500 for a puppy. $1500 seems about "usual" in our neck of the woods, if you are not looking for the uber champion frozen sperm emergency holiday c-section pups who had to be bottle fed because of antibiotic use after c-section in the dam... Those can run upwards of $10K.... 

Our breeder also offers title incentives in her contract and a health guarantee. (not sure what I'd do with that, really, because I can't see us returning him if he "breaks"... But it is good to know she stands behind the pups, and if some health thing came up, she'd help us figure out how to deal with it.)


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

A friend of mine is purchasing a show puppy from a breeder I know for the same price as a pet puppy from the same litter. The sire of this litter was from frozen sperm from an Australian top dog that has long since passed. The puppy is fabulous! I am so excited for her and now I will have a friend with a standard puppy to hang out with at shows.  I went off track, but someone said the show puppies cost more. That is often not the case. A reputable breeder, in my opinion, will be careful where they place their show puppies, but there is NEVER a guarantee, so why should they charge more?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

There are definitely different schools of thought on whether or not show prospects should cost more. I personally don't think that it is wrong to charge more for a show prospect, especially if the additional cost would be refunded after spay/neuter if the dog ends up not maturing as planned. It is reasonable to expect to pay more for a show/breeding dog that will ultimately be yours without co-ownership and without any other strings attached after, of course, meeting the breeder's requirements (championship, health testing, etc.) I would be less likely to want to pay more for a show prospect if I would be locked into a permanent co-ownership with puppies owed back to the breeder.


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## Jcjshelton (Jun 16, 2013)

I have to admit that I am the utmost ignorant when it came to buying puppies before I joined this forum, because it was unfathomable to me that anyone would care that much about the breed. I honestly thought that all breeders breed dogs for profit...sorry to offend anyone, but I think the general public do think this way... Which I did as well, until you guys. I have always loved dogs for their loyalty and unconditional love, but I had imagine that is how MOST dogs are anyways, until now. Well, I haven't changed my perspective about dogs because I always thought they were great, but I have changed my perspective about people, breeders. You guys are just wonderful, caring, compassionate people. It's very inspiring to know that there are many of you out there...


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## sarahmurphy (Mar 22, 2012)

taem said:


> Incidentally, the highest prices I've seen are from breeders I don't trust. The breeders I like, don't seem to charge as much as I think they could. I wonder how breeders can even make the numbers work, this does not seem to be a high profit margin industry, especially the good breeders who don't produce that many litters.


ditto:amen:

Outwest - I'm glad not everyone is looking at the whole frozen sperm, etc puppies at such high prices. I've met a few here, but I think the people who buy them (go looking for them) might just be looking to one-up the neighbors... (Oh, you JUST have a standard poodle, born easily, to good parents, etc? -- WE have a Super Special Poodle with a very interesting Birth Story.... - some of them do that with their children, too -- While we could have just had children normally, we chose to make sure we had children who looked different from us, and who had a special story around their birth and abandonment, so we could always be known as those wonderful people who so charitably gave these children a LIFE~!!! -- my children are adopted, I see this in some of the adoption circles, not that you have to seek out an adoption circle to know them - which is exactly the point.... sorry - talk about digression....) Edited to add that every one of those poodles and children are exceptional - far smarter, more talented, etc, than any of ours can ever hope to be....in the opinion of their owners, at least.)


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## PoodleRick (Mar 18, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> One of the main differences between a BYB and a reputable breeder is that a BYB is generally interested in producing puppies while a reputable breeder is focused on breeding for the _betterment of the breed. _ This means that they have the future of the breed in mind when they carefully plan each breeding and carefully consider the pedigree, known issues in the line, utilize available health testing and _use_ that information to help plan breedings.
> 
> A reputable breeder has very important goals in his or her breeding plan and these goals involve bettering the future generations of poodles. A reputable breeder has dedicated much time and research to understanding genetics as it applies to breeding, and is up to date on current research on health issues in the breed and has put a lot of thought into considering how to breed away from these health issues. A responsible breeder is very familiar with the breed standard and is breeding for health and temperament, and to improve structure and conformation in their dogs.
> 
> ...


This post should be a sticky. 


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

There is a Breeder about 40 mins from me. One of her spoo won breed at Westminster. She sells all her pups for the same price , but she does separate them into show and pet quality. If you get a show pup you have to show it. That is the only way she will sell it. I did not go there when looking for a dog, only because I heard, don't know if it is true, but heard all her dogs are outside in kennels and I wanted a inside raised adult.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Carley's Mom said:


> There is a Breeder about 40 mins from me. One of her spoo won breed at Westminster. She sells all her pups for the same price , but she does separate them into show and pet quality. If you get a show pup you have to show it. That is the only way she will sell it. I did not go there when looking for a dog, only because I heard, don't know if it is true, but heard all her dogs are outside in kennels and I wanted a inside raised adult.


Ya know, I'm not all that impressed by Westminster as I used to be - I've come to think that it is really just an event for the most campaigned/winning dogs, not necessarily for the best breeders. Having one dog that you throw a lot of money behind campaigning - it might also be a good dog, but does not necessarily mean that the breeder has a clue about how to consistently produce good dogs....


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## taem (Mar 5, 2011)

Personally I'm turned off by too much emphasis on champion ancestry. From what I've seen, the breeders who produce a lot of champions line breed more to fix color and structure. I also just don't like the show world.

The breeder I went to produces plenty of champions, but she doesn't focus on that, genetic diversity seems to be more important for her. She'll talk first and foremost about health and temperament. Her focus is very much on the relationship between dog and human. She doesn't dock tails either, which says a lot about where her emphasis is.

She doesn't distinguish between show quality and pet quality. She also doesn't try to sell her dogs. The apricot litter I got Syd from, she volunteered that some of them were likely to fade to cream fast, for example.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

When looking for a responsible breeder, involvement in the breed is important (showing in conformation and/or actively participating in performance events, belonging to all breed or breed specific clubs, etc. are just a _few_ examples), producing top winning specials and Westminster winners not as important - for various reasons including the fact that the majority of people - wonderful breeders included - simply don't have the money to campaign that type of show career. Just because a breeder consistently produces top winning specials does not mean they are the first breeders that I would recommend.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

taem said:


> Personally I'm turned off by too much emphasis on champion ancestry. From what I've seen, the breeders who produce a lot of champions line breed more to fix color and structure. I also just don't like the show world.
> 
> The breeder I went to produces plenty of champions, but she doesn't focus on that, genetic diversity seems to be more important for her. She'll talk first and foremost about health and temperament. Her focus is very much on the relationship between dog and human. She doesn't dock tails either, which says a lot about where her emphasis is.
> 
> She doesn't distinguish between show quality and pet quality. She also doesn't try to sell her dogs. The apricot litter I got Syd from, she volunteered that some of them were likely to fade to cream fast, for example.


Well I like a breeder who hits all of the points! 
Not to denigrate you breeder, but I don't understand how a breeder in the USA has plenty of champions but does not dock tails? Unless of course she buys finished champions from other breeders to breed pets out of?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well I like a breeder who hits all of the points!
> Not to denigrate you breeder, but I don't understand how a breeder in the USA has plenty of champions but does not dock tails? Unless of course she buys finished champions from other breeders to breed pets out of?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


An undocked tail while less common than docked will not necessarily prevent a quality dog from finishing their championship.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> An undocked tail while less common than docked will not necessarily prevent a quality dog from finishing their championship.


Very uncommon, no? Which kind of leads me to assume that a breeder breeding for the intent of showing would dock. 
I would like an undocked tail, but have never heard of a toy breeder who finishes champions, meets all of the health and temperament, and does not dock - can anyone tell me of such a breeder in the USA?


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## frecklesdmk (Mar 27, 2013)

I have experienced getting a standard poodle from different sources. First one came from a relative who breeds and shows standard poodles. I got that poodle at 7 months. The breeder had kept that one from the litter with the intention of showing her, but health issues for the breeder prevented her from doing that at the time, so we bought her. $1,000. Great dog - we lost her at 7 years to cancer. Our red standard I found through an add in the paper. The woman had purchased her from an Amish breeder. After bringing the puppy home, she discovered she had an overbite and she wouldn't be guaranteed good litters with puppies who would command a high price. She claimed her back was bad and she couldn't raise the puppy. I purchased her for $500 and she was 5 months old. It was the only day I looked in the paper at the pet ada and it was the only day age ran the ad. This dog was my husband's best friend. The two of them were inseparable until we lost her last year at 9 to severe arthritis in her spine. 

Our next two came from families who had a male and female and wanted the experience of a litter or two. They aren't what I would consider breeders but they loved their spoos dearly. 

First one had an eye that had very mild entropian. Her mother was a cream and her dad was a white. She was white but had the "spotted pigment" since those colors aren't normally bred together. She was a wonderful dog. I paid $400 and she was 4 months old and we lost her in March at 7 to bloat. 

Our current puppy is a cream color. Her mom was white and dad was brown. She also has spotted pigment and a slightly patchy coat color. She also has an eye with entropian. She is a great little girl and we paid $500. We got her at 8 weeks. 

We love the standard poodle and since we don't show or breed, we are grateful we have been able to find such awesome girls that we could afford. 

I haven't noticed any big difference in comparing any of them from where we got them except for the 1st one who came from a breeder. She had some fears (car rides, fireworks, water) and she was more aloof. I chalked that up to her being in a "pack" for her first 7 months. 

They all have been loved so much and they all had tons of love to give. With my last 3, there has been unique circumstances on how we found them that make me truly believe they were meant for us




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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Very uncommon, no? Which kind of leads me to assume that a breeder breeding for the intent of showing would dock.
> I would like an undocked tail, but have never heard of a toy breeder who finishes champions, meets all of the health and temperament, and does not dock - can anyone tell me of such a breeder in the USA?


If you contact a breeder you like they might consider not docking a puppy if the puppy is paid in full at birth. Some Europeans are obtaining American or Canadian dogs for showing in Europe (it is illegal to dock there) by doing this.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

outwest said:


> If you contact a breeder you like they might consider not docking a puppy if the puppy is paid in full at birth. Some Europeans are obtaining American or Canadian dogs for showing in Europe (it is illegal to dock there) by doing this.


Thanks, but I can't do that because I am waiting for a puppy specific physical and personality traits that the breeder could not begin to asses until it is 8 weeks or older - way past docking age.

Also, I thought that I did recently read that the countries that don't allow docking still do allow for docked American dogs to be shown there?

I can't quite understand how a breeder could pick a show quality dog from birth to leave un-docked for a European buyer either?


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Just bought a standard pup*

We paid $900 for an AKC spoo. He is very healthy and has a beautiful jet black thick shiny coat. We purchased him in southern Illinois.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mamato3 said:


> We paid $900 for an AKC spoo. He is very healthy and has a beautiful jet black thick shiny coat. We purchased him in southern Illinois.


Yet, this breeder sold the puppy at <6 weeks! 

In this area, $1,500 - $2,000 is really the average amount for a puppy from a reputable breeder.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*"Charismatic" much?*

Do you really feel the need to follow me around the forum making jabs at me? As I told you, in confidence (my mistake) I was not aware of his age since there were no papers at that time. Karma is rough sometimes. Have a nice day.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Perhaps*

Perhaps Liz is making the remark about our poodle puppy because she hopes to drive up the price of her upcoming litter. Just wondering. Prices are set by individuals and there is a wide range. You do not have to pay $1700 and up for a quality, healthy puppy.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Sorry for getting in the middle of a disagreement, but I took her post to mean that reputable breeders who keep their puppies to an appropriate age, show and do all of the health testing need to charge more because their costs are higher. 
Of course one might get lucky and have a poodle that was removed from it's mother too early, and whose parents had no health testing, and whose breeder had little knowledge of the genetic history behind the dogs that they put together, and wind up with a perfectly healthy and wonderful dog.
However, for many of us who have been through heartache around our dogs in the past, think that it is worth a little extra money to improve our chances of having a sound, beautiful and well tempered poodle to give our hearts to.
And I really doubt that anyone could " drive up the price of their next litter" even if they wanted to - people will pay what something is worth, and knowledgeable dog people do indeed see the worth in obtaining their puppy from a highly reputable breeder.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*...*

This isn't about the price of a puppy, age of a puppy or anything else. She has followed me around on this site since I joined a few days ago. Every site has a bully. I simply drew the attention of this one quite early on. I don't know what her problem is but I have a lot of more interesting things to do than play tit for tat with her. 
Our Standard poodle pup was sold to us younger than the seller disclosed. I asked the person who can't stop following me for some advice since she is from the general area. Instead of offering any insight she attacked me for buying the puppy so young. We love him dearly. She moved on to other posts of mine and added her negative two cents. Where ever I go...there she is. :alberteinstein:
Whatever her particular problem is with me she will simply have to move on to some other target. I am bored with her already.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Are you kidding me? Sorry for saying anything. That was NOT my intention. Tiny Paws is spot in in what I am trying to say in this thread.

I have in no way followed you around, I am sorry that you think that. And I did NOT bully you for buying a young puppy. I stated that it was illegal for the breeder to sell such a young puppy and offered empathy for the work that you surely have had to be putting into such a young puppy and said that Id just like to know who the breeder is since I'm local and id like to make sure none of my puppies end up in their hands! This is
Not about YOU at all. YOU did nothing wrong.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

*Yes I did. My mistake.*

This is the private message I sent to you. You decided to attack me as a result of my inquiry.
"I bought a beautiful male spoo last week. He was supposed to be six weeks. He wasn't that old. I immediately took him to our vet and he is super healthy. I gave $850 for him. He is just now six weeks old. The problem is I simply can't keep up with him. I have managed to take excellent care of him all week and even fed him formula the first several days. Now he is bouncy and eating wet food and just wonderful but I am in over my head. I'm 63 and have fibromyalgia and by the time he goes to bed I am beyond exhausted. I know he is too much for me. I am looking for a home for him. Do you know anyone in our area whose dream it is to own a standard poodle and who would love him with all their heart? He deserves so much. I can handle losing the money I spend but I can't handle him going to a less than loving home."

I guess it is a coincidence that every time I post you are right there with a bit of hostility. Feel free to quote my private message from a few minutes ago. Here, I'll save you the trouble. I said "Piss off."


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Hostile?! What? I don't even know how to respond. You are reading this completely wrong! I didn't post in this thread to point out anything to you. But to help others know what to expect when looking for a responsible breeder. And avoid heartache. I had no intention of this being about you.


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I've had several reports regarding this thread and from more than one member. Keep the hostility off the public threads and take it to PMs. Mamato3 you are skating awfully close to personal attacks. Tread carefully. 

Barb
Moderator


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

plumcrazy said:


> I've had several reports regarding this thread and from more than one member. Keep the hostility off the public threads and take it to PMs. Mamato3 you are skating awfully close to personal attacks. Tread carefully.
> 
> Barb
> Moderator


Well, to be fair to Mamato3 it isn't polite to bring up info from a private message in the public forum. 


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Well, actually Mamato3 mentioned content from
the PM - saying I attacked her. Then I responded and elaborated to help explain that I wasn't attacking her via PM, but instead trying to respond politely. I had no idea until now that she had even felt attacked and am surprised to hear so as I was polite in my responses to her.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

CharismaticMillie said:


> Well, Mamato3 brought it up first and then I responded and elaborated to help explain that I wasn't attacking her via PM, but instead trying to respond politely.


I'm not taking sides, but she responded to a thread 5 days ago regarding the prices people paid for their puppies and you responded today with private info about the age of the puppy she purchased. That doesn't give her the right to personally attack you, but private messages should remain that way. You betrayed her confidence. Also, some comments you made about her puppy on the silver/grey thread could be construed as a little insensitive. Again, that does not mean she should have reacted the way she did. Both of you should chalk it up to a misunderstanding and move on. 


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## Cailin77 (Jul 21, 2012)

There is an expression in the horse world "there's no such thing as a free horse"... In the dog world I think it should be "there's no such thing as a bargain puppy!" Poodle pups are expensive... From what I've seen, standards more so than any other size. And that does make sense- they have high grooming needs and genetic health issues that make breeding a health pup, that will grow into healthy adult, a difficult and costly process. While any puppy can end up with health issues, a puppy that is badly bred is more likely to have health issues. I imagine in the long run, 99% of the time, an expensive puppy, from health tested parents will end up being a dog with fewer health issues and fewer vet bills. 

(And for reference, my poodle was a rescue. I fully expect that health issues may arise that will far exceed the purchase price of a well bred puppy.)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i don't want to get into this specific situation, but i do want to note that in the time i have been here, i have noticed several owners who have "signed up" with new puppies 6 weeks old (and maybe younger) who have been told ackkkk that's too young. several of those owners have felt as though they were being attacked and i think have never returned to pf. i understand the reaction of more experienced owners and breeders, but i also sympathize with the new owners, who came to pf to share their joy and to get help down the road if needed and feel they have been stigmatized, not realizing that it's the breeder who would release a pup that young who is being questioned. once the dog is in an owner's arms, i have never seen anyone at pf attack the owner. people here love dogs (not just poodles, but mixes, mutts, what-have-you) too much to do that.

so should one not object to a breeder releasing a puppy that's too young? nope. we all to have to learn sometime about breeders and puppies (there's even an argument about waiting till 12 weeks, with counter-arguments about a new fear stage at that age - or at least that's what i remember). that being said, the "regulars" at pf have so much to offer that i hope they will make crystal clear that it's the breeders who would release such a young puppy who are being questioned and not the new owner. anyone who is here because of love for his/her dog is going to find a very supportive community.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

patk said:


> i don't want to get into this specific situation, but i do want to note that in the time i have been here, i have noticed several owners who have "signed up" with new puppies 6 weeks old (and maybe younger) who have been told ackkkk that's too young. several of those owners have felt as though they were being attacked and i think have never returned to pf. i understand the reaction of more experienced owners and breeders, but i also sympathize with the new owners, who came to pf to share their joy and to get help down the road if needed and feel they have been stigmatized, not realizing that it's the breeder who would release a pup that young who is being questioned. once the dog is in an owner's arms, i have never seen anyone at pf attack the owner. people here love dogs (not just poodles, but mixes, mutts, what-have-you) too much to do that.
> 
> so should one not object to a breeder releasing a puppy that's too young? nope. we all to have to learn sometime about breeders and puppies (there's even an argument about waiting till 12 weeks, with counter-arguments about a new fear stage at that age - or at least that's what i remember). that being said, the "regulars" at pf have so much to offer that i hope they will make crystal clear that it's the breeders who would release such a young puppy who are being questioned and not the new owner. anyone who is here because of love for his/her dog is going to find a very supportive community.


I think that you are correct - and folks have to try to remember that this is a public forum, and when we speak, we are not just speaking to the individual, but to the thousands of people who are not members but will read the post, so I do think that it is important that questionable breeder practices are always called out, so the public readers do not get the idea that such things are acceptable. Of course we should try to word it so as not to offend the newcomer, but even when that seems impossible, IMHO, we should not allow it to deter us from the greater good -which is educating people who have yet to bring a puppy home, be they members or lurkers....


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

YES, what they said above! 

Mamato3, I am very sorry if you felt attacked but you are not to blame and I never intended for you to feel that way from anything that I have said. In fact, I think it is a SHAME and UNFAIR that a breeder who happens to be local to me grr: ) is ILLEGALLY selling 6 week or younger puppies to well meaning people like you. It is a HUGE undertaking to end up with a puppy that hasn't had proper opportunities for socialization or proper rearing and it makes me very upset to hear of this happening. It also _scares_ me to hear about it because very soon I will (hopefully) be responsible for where my own puppies end up - puppies that I will have been planning for for over a year! Of course I have been very extensively screening potential homes, but it still is a huge responsibility and I always worry about people who might pretend to be someone they are not...What if a greeder like the one who is selling too young of puppies fronts as just a pet owner and manages to fool me? Probably won't happen, but I worry nonetheless! Especially since it sounds like this breeder is awfully close! 

I did not see the date that Mamato had posted in this thread. I just happened to see the post as I was going through the thread and responded. The reason why I responded in this thread about the breeder selling puppies young is because I think that it is important for soon to be puppy owners to be aware of the tricks that greeders pull. I think it's important to help educate because I think everyone deserves a puppy who has been properly reared. I didn't even think about the possibility that Mamato would be upset by what I said. For that I do apologize. I honestly assumed that educating was most important.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

mamato3 said:


> This is the private message I sent to you. You decided to attack me as a result of my inquiry.
> "I bought a beautiful male spoo last week. He was supposed to be six weeks. He wasn't that old. I immediately took him to our vet and he is super healthy. I gave $850 for him. He is just now six weeks old. The problem is I simply can't keep up with him. I have managed to take excellent care of him all week and even fed him formula the first several days. Now he is bouncy and eating wet food and just wonderful but I am in over my head. I'm 63 and have fibromyalgia and by the time he goes to bed I am beyond exhausted. I know he is too much for me. I am looking for a home for him. Do you know anyone in our area whose dream it is to own a standard poodle and who would love him with all their heart? He deserves so much. I can handle losing the money I spend but I can't handle him going to a less than loving home."
> 
> I guess it is a coincidence that every time I post you are right there with a bit of hostility. Feel free to quote my private message from a few minutes ago. Here, I'll save you the trouble. I said "Piss off Liz."


Just to be clear, and fair, this was my response to your PM:

"It is illegal to sell a puppy at less than 8 weeks of age. Where did you get this puppy from?
I will keep my eyes and ears open for someone looking for a puppy. "

This comment was not an attack on you, Mamato3. I'm on *your* side. You were wronged by the breeder. This response was me scratching my head going _who the HECK is this breeder _who is apparently in my area and illegally sold you a 6 week old puppy?! It's upsetting to me to hear this happening to people like you.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

plumcrazy said:


> I've had several reports regarding this thread and from more than one member. Keep the hostility off the public threads and take it to PMs. Mamato3 you are skating awfully close to personal attacks. Tread carefully.
> 
> Barb
> Moderator


But. BUT. There's SO many things I want to say!

Can I just..

Just give me one..










DANG IT. NO.


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## fuzzymom (Sep 19, 2013)

Ok, I really don't want to be involved with this, but I've had to leave an online community before because of people being disrespectful, abusive, bullying, etc. Everyone is missing the point. This is not about breeders selling dogs too young. We get that it's wrong to do that. This is about respecting each other on this forum. The problem was about taking info from a private message and sharing it in public. That's it. Drop the breeder topic. I'm not saying CM had any bad intentions, but this is the outcome. A lot of accusations and hurt feelings. I was just thinking the other day how nice this forum is because everyone is so positive and supportive. Let's try to keep it that way.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

To me, the point _is_ about breeders selling dogs too young! My passion is the breed and to help lurkers and newcomers understand what to look for when finding a breeder. My intent was not to hurt the feelings of Mamato3 and I apologize for doing so and feel _bad_ for doing so. But I DO hope that in some way I have helped make a difference for someone looking for a breeder since that was my intent and I stand behind my intent.

Perhaps it would have been better if I had simply replied without quoting Mamato and said:

"In my area, responsible breeders sell standard poodles in the $1,500-$2,000 range in general. I know of a breeder in Illinois 
who is charging $900 but is selling puppies at less than 6 weeks of age. Beware of breeders like this, there is no such thing as a bargain puppy."

I don't feel right NOT sharing this information about the breeder, no matter how the information got to me. It's the right thing to do. If we all keep quiet, how are we helping the breed? Isn't that why we are here? For a love of the breed? As ambassadors for the breed?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I just wish that Mamato had told me directly that what I had said had upset her before going off on me in this thread. I would have taken the feedback and messaged a moderator to try and have the post edited so that it did not link Momato to the breeder if that was what upset her.

But the information that this breeder and breeders like them exists needs to be shared.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

I agree with you that if you had worded it differently I would not have felt so judged. When I spoke with you privately I was already feeling really silly for having brought home the puppy. I had already sent many messages to the breeder begging her not to sell the littermates until they were older. I still plan to contact someone about her selling them at six weeks. The last thing I needed was to feel worse. When you posted that in the thread about prices I felt very exposed. All in all it is a learning experience and I do hope no one else makes the mistake I made. Thankfully I was able to take excellent care of him but if I not been able to be at home 24/7 I don't know if he would have made it. Lesson learned.
As far as the forum I think I will just move on and gain more knowledge in other venues. I appreciate all of the private messages and realize I am not the first person to feel as I felt. Much of what was said that upset me has been edited out. It doesn't matter. I didnt' come here to win an argument or to have an argument. I came because I have had a beloved poodle in my life since I was a child and always will have. Learning new things is always a good thing.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

I apologize for having caused you to feel "exposed". I hope that you realize that was never my intention. I was instead really hoping that we could be on the same team in that we could work to prevent others from going to this particular breeder. I would never in 100 years pass judgement on you or anyone else in your situation. The only judgement I pass is on the breeder. Though I can understand how you feel, there is no need to feel silly for having brought home the puppy. If anything, this is an opportunity for you to make a difference. It is not your fault a breeder deceived you, but you can help prevent others from being deceived as well.

As far as editing posts, there is only a small window to do that and generally when someone edits their post, it's because they looked at their post and realized it didn't sound quite right, or was unintentionally harsh, might hurt someone's feelings, etc. Sometimes it can be hard to get wording right and you really have to see it posted on the thread before you can appreciate the different ways it might be interpreted.


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## mamato3 (Oct 20, 2013)

I appreciate and accept your apology. I probably over reacted since I was already upset about the baby pup and worried that he would not make it. What can be done about someone who sells puppies at five weeks? We took one of the males and when he saw my vet the next day he weighed four pounds! The female wasn't half as big as our puppy. I pray she has not been taken away but she was offered to us that day. We had looked for a long time to find the right puppy and why I ended up there is beyond me. It was an expensive lesson but I will never buy from a breeder like that again. I actually noticed the day after we bought him that she had two other breeds for sale. She is making a lot of money from this and putting every puppy in danger as well as putting the buyer through a lot of potential heartbreak. I am going to post a new thread about this topic. You are right that people need to know what can happen. I am sure we will never get his AKC papers. She said they were not back yet. I doubt they are even AKC. I doubt everything she said. As I said before we drove the two hours to put a deposit on him NOT to bring home a tiny baby. I am sorry that I took it all so personally. It was just a really bad time with worrying about the puppy and trying to get him to drink puppy formula because he had only two tiny teeth.


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