# When to spay female with male dog in house?



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Gee, is there someone he could stay with when she is in heat? It would be extremely difficult to safely keep them in the house together.
Aside from all of the documented health benefits of them having a heat, I am so pleased with the physical changes that my youngest, the first one I have waited to spay had - she has muscles (and can move) like no other toy poodle that I have ever seen. Her vulva looks like an entirely different thing than my early spay girls, and now it is obvious to me why early spay girls have a significant risk of incontinence. Plus there was a notable emotional maturity that came along with those hormones.
No matter how inconvenient, I will do whatever it takes to enable all of my future girls to have a heat before being spayed.
You can ask your breeder at what age her girls typically come in - I think that it does vary by lines. My breeder's come in late - 13-16 months, but I have heard of others coming in as early as 8-9 months.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Gee, is there someone he could stay with when she is in heat? It would be extremely difficult to safely keep them in the house together.
> Aside from all of the documented health benefits of them having a heat, I am so pleased with the physical changes that my youngest, the first one I have waited to spay had - she has muscles (and can move) like no other toy poodle that I have ever seen. Her vulva looks like an entirely different thing than my early spay girls, and now it is obvious to me why early spay girls have a significant risk of incontinence. Plus there was a notable emotional maturity that came along with those hormones.
> No matter how inconvenient, I will do whatever it takes to enable all of my future girls to have a heat before being spayed.
> You can ask your breeder at what age her girls typically come in - I think that it does vary by lines. My breeder's come in late - 13-16 months, but I have heard of others coming in as early as 8-9 months.



Wise comments, Tiny. I waited until about a year with my girl, but given the new research I plan to wait much much longer with my next kiddo. It really is a whole different ballgame when you have an intact male in the house though. Maybe someone with that experience ill chime in soon.

VQ


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Viking Queen said:


> Wise comments, Tiny. I waited until about a year with my girl, but given the new research I plan to wait much much longer with my next kiddo. It really is a whole different ballgame when you have an intact male in the house though. Maybe someone with that experience ill chime in soon.
> 
> 
> 
> VQ



My earlier girls were done at a year, but before heat, and I honestly don't think it would have made any difference if they had been done at 6 months - all of the changes occurred with the heat. But what can you do - live and learn. But now that I have learned, no way would I go backwards - if I were in the OP's situation with an intact male, and didn't have anybody to leave him with, then I would find a nearby place to board him and visit him everyday, and just consider it an investment in my girls health.


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## pumpkinpoodle (Oct 26, 2015)

Shuleran said:


> :alberteinstein:Hello all,
> We have a 5 month old toy poodle. She is a tiny little thing and weighs 3 pounds 10 ounces. My daughter got her for Christmas and we adore her. We do not plan to breed and plan to spay her. I have read a lot about waiting until she is fully grown to spay her but I have big concerns about not doing it ASAP. We have a 2 year old, 46 pound Boykin Spaniel boy and his is not neutered as he has an extensive pedigree, is a fabulous bird hunting dog and we do plan to breed him in the near future. They get along great and even cuddle up together on the couch with us and sleep in our bed. I know that he could damage her if she goes into heat before we spay her. I would like to have her spayed sooner rather than later but I do worry about her tiny size. I would appreciate any information on early spay vs late spay and on having dogs of different sexes and different sizes in the same home. Thanks for you input.


Talk to you vet. A good vet is a wealth of knowledge. You know you gotTA GAT THAR TINY BABY GILR spayed. Ask your vet about your concerns. Little poodles can be spayed. The alternative....you know is dangerous for her. 
If you can;t keep them housed separately...spay the girl.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Viking Queen said:


> Wise comments, Tiny. I waited until about a year with my girl, but given the new research I plan to wait much much longer with my next kiddo. It really is a whole different ballgame when you have an intact male in the house though. Maybe someone with that experience ill chime in soon.
> 
> VQ


I agree. I used to think spaying at about a year was fine too, but I've learned a lot on these type of forums about waiting longer. 

To the OP though, PLEASE don't consider spaying your tiny Poodle yet. She's too small, and she needs time to develop. You will need to either keep the male completely separated from her for 3 weeks, or have the male stay with someone else. My recommendation would be the latter. For them to stay in the same household is too much of a risk.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I am going to offer a less popular opinion. I used to get my dogs spayed/neutered at 6 months per the vets recommendation. My PWD Phoenix had recurrent vaginitis as a puppy and a lot of bladder infections. This time my vet recommended that we let her go into heat then spay. So that is what we did.

Phoenix has a lot of mobility issues and other little problems my other spayed dogs never had. I have seen no advantage whatsoever in her muscle development over my previous females who were spayed early.

I had planned to neuter Dakota at about a year, but then he started marking at my vets, at the pet store, and at the dog training school, I had him neutered at 9 months, which is a lot earlier than most people on this forum would recommend.

If I got another female, I think I would spay her at about a year as I meant to do Dakota. If I had an intact male around a smaller female, I would most definitly not wait till after the first heat to get her spayed.

This topic is another one that people feel very passionate about, but at the end of the day, we are responsible for our own decisions on caring for our dogs. Not every dog spayed before first heat has health problems when older, and not every dog spayed after being in heat fares better because if it.

I hope the OP listens to advice from the forum and her vet, and then she should make up her own mind based on her situation with the 2 dogs.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

MiniPoo said:


> I am going to offer a less popular opinion. I used to get my dogs spayed/neutered at 6 months per the vets recommendation. My PWD Phoenix had recurrent vaginitis as a puppy and a lot of bladder infections. This time my vet recommended that we let her go into heat then spay. So that is what we did.
> 
> Phoenix has a lot of mobility issues and other little problems my other spayed dogs never had. I have seen no advantage whatsoever in her muscle development over my previous females who were spayed early.
> 
> ...



It is always hard to know precisely what is nature and what is nurture. Perhaps Timi would have developed into such an outstanding physical specimen even if she had been spayed early. And perhaps Phoenix just had bad luck in the genetic lottery that no amount of hormones could fix.
Of all my girls who were early spayed, there was only one who I feel fairly certain suffered consequences from it. And Teaka, who was spayed before her first heat, is remarkably healthy for almost 14 years old so I have no complaints there. However, when it came to making the choice for Timi, it just made plain sense to me that allowing her to have the hormones that nature intended her to have while she was growing would allow her to be the best and healthiest that her genetic code could express. I am happy that I did it, and I will do it again with my next girl, however it is not a black and white issue. There are benefits to early spay,and even though I would not make that choice again, I certainly would not fault anybody for doing it.
Your advice isn't controversial Minipoo - it is one of two reasonable choices. I think folks are more likely to speak about delaying the spay because it is newer information - and it is not being dispensed by many vets as most of them prefer to stick with the "tried and true", thus many of us feel the need to get the newer info out there to those who may not hear it from their vet.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Since your little girl could go into heat at any time, I would make sure they are in different rooms at night with the doors tightly closed, and the same if you ever leave them during the day. When home I would keep them with you 100% of the time. Your boy will probably notice before you do .....


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

kontiki said:


> Since your little girl could go into heat at any time, I would make sure they are in different rooms at night with the doors tightly closed, and the same if you ever leave them during the day. When home I would keep them with you 100% of the time. Your boy will probably notice before you do .....


That means a person has to be vigilant watching 24/7, making sure the male can't get to her. It can be done, but it seems like that would be very stressful.

If there are children in the family, or others who come and go a lot, there's always that possibility that someone will leave a door open without you knowing.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

please don't be insulted, but i think this situation sounds like "an accident waiting to happen." a number of pf posters in other threads have not even been sure their dog was about to go into or was in heat. are you certain you will know and be able to separate the dogs ahead of time? seems questionable. i would be very nervous about possibly putting such a small dog at risk. perhaps a good consultation with your vet would help with determining what your real choices are.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

I agree with Minipoo in that deciding when to fix a dog is a personal choice as much as it is a health concern. 

While there is very strong evidence that delaying the desexing of a male dog (past puberty for smaller breeds and past adult growth for larger breeds) is beneficial, the results aren't as clear for females.

I don't know enough about toys (what I've read has mostly related to larger dogs since I have a spoo) but if you don't either fix or watch both dogs like a hawk, you're very likely to end up with a pregnant juvenile dog carrying very large puppies. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen for both mom and babies (unless your vet is willing to do a gavid spay), and were I in your shoes, I would have her spayed after she is 6/7 months.

But again, personal choice. If the science supports delaying spays for small dogs and you truly feel you can intervene between the dogs when/before she is in heat, perhaps that would be best.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If I were in your shoes, I'd talk it over with the vet and see what he feels is the soonest it is safe to spay your girl. I would *NOT* risk pregnancy for that little dog. It is a death sentence. You can not always know when they start a heat. And in fact, even before you notice signs, dogs can and do mate and sperm can live in there for a time until the conditions are right. Before and after signs of heat are noticeable, a bitch can become pregnant. There is no way on God's green earth I would house these two dogs together. 

I've had lots of dogs and some were spayed early, one after her first heat. They were all just fine and lived long, healthy lives and were perfectly physically fit. I think the delaying of neutering a male dog is more important than with a female. In fact, there are probably more significant reasons to do an early spay than there are an early neuter on a male. Talk it over with your vet. But don't risk your little dog's life. And there's no such thing as _not_ having the possibility of an accident with a door left open, a miscalculation as to timing of a heat etc. It just wouldn't be worth the risk to a tiny dog's life.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Peeves is intact. He and Lily are the same age. When they were pups, BF and vet used to joke about shepadoodles (not a joke I ever saw the humor in). Lily was spayed when she was about 6 months old. She is a stellar athlete and although a bit small (22 3/4" and 36 pounds, which I think had nothing to do with when she was spayed, she was a terrible eater as a young pup) she is perfectly normal in all respects.

I think the decision on when to spay or neuter is best taken in consideration of the needs of the household and with the medical advice of a good and trusted vet. For the OP I think the advice to keep your dogs 100% separated and very closely supervised or to spay the girl sooner rather than later sounds best.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

My last dog before my current Toy Poodle was a female of a different breed, but also in the Toy group.

She did not have as visible signs of heat as one sees in large/larger dogs. Bitch puppies can go into their first heats as early as six months of age, and it could occur without you being aware of it.

Fyi, dogs can, do, and have mated through crates, so that is no protection. They also escape from crates, sometimes causing injuries to themselves.

Talk to your vet, but I'd send your Boykin to your breed mentor's for four weeks as your Tpoo goes into heat if you won't spay now.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Reading Streetcar's post reminded me of someone here writing about a dog trying to get through the exterior walls of a house to get to a bitch in heat. I think the determined boy was a GSD.

Here's another idea. If your boy is done showing collect from him and freeze, then neuter. If not done showing send him out with a handler to finish his campaign and then collect, freeze and neuter.


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## Shuleran (Jan 8, 2016)

Thankyou all for the advice. I did plan to talk to my vet and make the right decision for us as soon as possible. Sending our Boykin away is not an option and we want her spayed as soon as is healthy and safe for her. Appreciate the information and polite opinions from all.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I hope you come back and let us know what the vet thinks and how everything goes. And pictures! We need pictures when you're ready. Best of luck!


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