# Getting ready to take the raw plunge!



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I FINALLY bought myself a chest freezer. I have been wanting to start Nova on raw but haven't had the freezer space to do more than give her the occasional piece of chicken breast or slice of meat off something I was having for dinner. 

My plan is to initially feed both raw and kibble. She eats twice a day, so I am thinking of feeding kibble in the morning and raw for her evening meal. I have been feeding my cat raw for some time now, so I am familiar with the idea but feeding Nova (65lb vs my 8lb cat) is on a completely different scale. 

I am not sure what I should buy for her. What cuts of meat and what bone-in meats will be large enough for a dog of her size? What cuts should I stay away from? I would love to hear what other standard owners feed regularly. 

I am also worried about being able to source enough organs. It isn't hard to find 5% of my cat's body weight in organs, but 5% of Nova's BW is quite a bit more. Most of the organs that I use are deer organs from when my bf hunts. That was enough for my cat, but won't last very long feeding a dog of Nova's size. What organs do you feed to your standard and where do you find them? 

If anyone has any sample "meal plans" that you would be willing to share, that would be tremendously helpful. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Congrats on taking the plunge!

Not a Poodle, but I am feeding four dogs raw right now, including one large one (my Borzoi). The rule of thumb I've heard is to feed a dog a piece of meat no smaller than their head, so that they'll have to work on it. 

Chicken is a good meat to start with. I often go to Sam's Club (a warehouse store) and buy a case of fryers, then cut them up. Flame can easily eat half a chicken in a sitting, and I imagine Nova could, too! I would give her nothing smaller than a leg quarter--these are often available at Wal-Mart in 10-lb. bags, on the cheap--and I'd probably give her at least a couple of leg quarters at a time.

I've heard that it's not such a good idea to feed kibble and raw at the same time. The reasoning is that raw is digested much more quickly than kibble, so if they're both working around in the digestive system things can get wonky. However, I would think that this applies to grain-based kibbles; if you're feeding a very high-quality kibble with primarily meat ingredients, you might not have this concern.

Organs: I'm lucky enough to live in a city that has a dog food store which caters to raw feeders, and she sells organ mixes which are made up of kidneys, sweatbreads, liver, and hearts ground up together. Before this store was around, I'd buy whatever organs were cheapest. Sometimes I fed them whole, and sometimes I ground them up with hamburger meat to make patties (that was back when I first started raw feeding; I haven't feed ground hamburger in years!). An all-organ meal is very rich for a beginning raw eater, though, so be mindful of that. I often mix my fish (usually canned sardines, but sometimes I get whole fish) with the organ meal.










Good luck! Once you feed raw, you'll never go back!

--Q


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Quossom gave good advice! I second the caution about mixing raw and kibble. In my experience, the issues are not from the raw food and the kibble as much as the whole bone and the kibble. The PH levels needed to digest bone are quite a bit higher than kibble, and this is one of the adjustments a kibble fed dog goes through as they begin to eat raw. 

That said, I HAVE had good experiences mixing pre-made raw and kibble. I also have had no problems mixing boneless raw meat with kibble. 

Again, this is a typical situation of "know thy dog". Give it a try. 

If it does not work, you know why. In that situation, dump the kibble and see if this improves things.


----------



## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

This is a weekly menu from an article I wrote several years ago and some helpful links. Good luck, I have never looked back!

Example of a weekly menu:



Monday: Pork Picnic Roast with ¼ cup of Green Tripe with ground kidney.

Tuesday: Chicken Leg Quarters, with a hunk of Beef Brisket. Most leg Quarters have a small chunk of liver attached. FYI a leg quarter is 27% bone. 

Wednesday: Whole Tilapia, egg, and beef heart, Beef Ribs.

Thursday: Half a Rabbit, hunk of boneless Pork. 

Friday: Beef Liver, course ground Green Tripe with kidney, chicken necks and raw egg with shell. Some dogs will eat a whole un-broken egg, mine prefer them cracked open.

Saturday: Chicken Leg Quarters, deer trim (most hunters are happy to give this to you).

Sunday: Beef Brisket, Lamb neck bones, chicken livers, hearts and gizzards small amount of canned Salmon. 

The Many Myths of Raw Feeding

rawbreeder : Raw Breeder

Raw Fed Dogs | Feeding the way Mother Nature intended!!!

Jane Anderson's Raw Learning Site

Distributors - Oma's Pride Raw Pet Food

Hare Today, Gone Tommorow

RawChat : Raw Chat

http://www.rawdogranch.com/musclemeat.htm

Raw Meaty Bones


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Love that photo Quossom! 

The main reason I want to feed a combo of raw and kibble right now is for cost reasons. I don't know if I can afford to feed Nova completely raw and keep buying kibble for Sonya. I had only read that the issue with feeding raw and kibble together was a digestion time thing, since the raw digests so much faster than kibble. I read that if you fed raw and kibble at the same time, you could get some issues with food poisoning because the kibble makes the raw sit in the digestive tract for too long. But I had never heard about the pH issue before. Thanks for pointing that out to me Millie! 

I plan to go fully raw with Nova once Sonya leaves and I am only feeding one dog. At that time I won't have a reason to have to keep buying kibble. 

Thanks so much for all of the resources Apres. That's really really helpful!


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Sookster said:


> Love that photo Quossom!
> I read that if you fed raw and kibble at the same time, you could get some issues with food poisoning because the kibble makes the raw sit in the digestive tract for too long.


I have heard that too, but I personally don't hold a lot of weight in that claim.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Also wanted to add that in my original post, I meant 5% of their total ration, not 5% body weight. Don't know where my head was on that one. 

For my cat, the ratios were to feed 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organ. Is this the same for dogs? 

Also, those of you that feed raw, do you feed in one or two meals per day? Or other? 

Side note: Nova currently eats TOTW kibble, a rotation of all their flavors except the new lamb one.


----------



## phrannie (Jan 8, 2011)

Sookster said:


> Love that photo Quossom!
> 
> The main reason I want to feed a combo of raw and kibble right now is for cost reasons. I don't know if I can afford to feed Nova completely raw and keep buying kibble for Sonya. I had only read that the issue with feeding raw and kibble together was a digestion time thing, since the raw digests so much faster than kibble. I read that if you fed raw and kibble at the same time, you could get some issues with food poisoning because the kibble makes the raw sit in the digestive tract for too long. But I had never heard about the pH issue before. Thanks for pointing that out to me Millie!
> 
> ...


*I feed raw and kibble also, just not at the same meal...I heard also, that they shouldn't be mixed because they digest at different rates (something in that makes me think..."oh BS")...but because I'm not overly confident, I decided that digestion rates can't be affected if there's hours between meals. So far, I haven't bumped into anybody I know feeding kibble and raw in a day having any problems.

p *


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Sookster said:


> For my cat, the ratios were to feed 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organ. Is this the same for dogs?
> 
> Also, those of you that feed raw, do you feed in one or two meals per day? Or other?


Yes, the ratios are the same! 

I feed two meals because that is what I am most comfortable with. I know many who feed once daily. Personally, I will always feed twice daily.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm a once-a-day feeder.

I fed two meals when I first started feeding BARF-style raw many years ago: the patty mix in the morning and the RMB's at night. Since switching to prey model, though, I ran up against the problem that if I gave them a big enough hunk of meat twice a day, they got fat. So, I went to one meal with no ill effects. I do try to feed at varying times of day (when possible, but it's usually in the evening). My Borzoi has become a very picky eater in her old age and I sometimes try to entice her with a morning meal of some kind as well. The ones in training get a lot of treats, too, which I have to consider.

--Q


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Quossom that was what I was wondering about, the getting fat part lol. Nova is so big that a meal for her will be HUGE and I think that two meals would probably be too much food. Thanks for sharing your experience.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Sookster, that is a very legitimate concern. It is likely why my poodles are getting fat LOL. It would certainly be easier to feed once daily. I feed twice daily because Henry already had GDV and I am not comfortable feeding him large amounts at once. 

So, since I already feed him twice daily, it really is easier to feed everybody twice daily. Maybe when I move out and don't feed Henry anymore (he's my mom's) I will feed once daily.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Nova had her first bone-in meal last night, a chicken quarter. It took her a bit but she figured out how to eat it. And now more questions lol. 

If a leg quarter is 27% bone, isn't that a bit high? Should I include something in that meal that doesn't have bone to keep her from getting constipated? If so, what should that something be? 

Does anyone know of a resource that has the bone percentage of different cuts of meat? This would be really helpful. I think the biggest thing about feeding raw that confuses me is how to tell if I have the bone content right. Any tips on how to manage this are helpful.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Sookster said:


> *
> If a leg quarter is 27% bone, isn't that a bit high? *Should I include something in that meal that doesn't have bone to keep her from getting constipated? If so, what should that something be?
> 
> Does anyone know of a resource that has the bone percentage of different cuts of meat? This would be really helpful. I think the biggest thing about feeding raw that confuses me is how to tell if I have the bone content right. Any tips on how to manage this are helpful.


This is why a raw diet is balanced *over time*. Every meal does not need to be perfectly balanced. You might feed a chicken quarter one meal that is 27% bone, but (once adjusted) your dog will eat more boneless meals than bone-in meals, and over a weeks' time, the overall bone % of your dog's diet will be much less than 27%.

Right now, you are introducing raw, so, yes, you will be feeding closer to 20-30% bone at the very beginning. This is to help keep stool nice and firm while adjusting. 

I started out by only feeding bone-in for a week or so. Then I noticed my dogs' stool was becoming too firm so I added in boneless meals. Within a few weeks my dogs were able to handle a pattern of 3 boneless meals per bone-in meal. This is what currently works for *my* dogs. Some peoples' dogs need more bone. Watch their stool.

The USDA database will tell you bone percentage. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

I used this database to calculate out about 10% of their diet in bone. If I know that a chicken quarter is 27% bone, you can do the math to figure out how much bone your dog will be getting from a 1 lb. chicken quarter.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I knew you balance it over time, rather than every day. I just didn't know if that was too high for a meal. It makes since that you would feed higher bone in the beginning to help with runny poos. 

And thanks for the link! That will be very helpful. Would you mind giving me an example of a 'boneless meal' ? I'm kind of blanking on what that would be. Chicken breast? Steaks? (that would get expensive!)


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

A boneless meal for my dogs is ground organs or tripe. Dogs LOVE tripe!

Congrats on getting on the raw bus. =}

--Q


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

A boneless meal is literally anything boneless. Whatever you can find reasonably priced. Mine are all red meat - beef pork lamb deer Never will a boneless meal for me be organs my dogs will get cannon butt. I only feed organ with bone.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I haven't found anywhere locally to buy tripe, or organ meets for that matter. I have some leftover organs from last deer season, and will hopefully get some more once season comes back in this fall. But I am probably going to have to find a good online resource for ordering organs, since I can't reliably get them here. 

I always heard to feed organs with bone as well, to help prevent loose stool.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I took this video of Nova eating her first meal the other night: 

Nova's First Bone In Raw Meal - YouTube

Can someone tell me how to actually embed the video in a post?


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Well we still aren't on a fully raw diet, since I still haven't had the time to go scouting for organs at all the local ethnic markets, but Nova is getting raw about 4 days a week (I am feeding one day of all raw, then one day of kibble generally) now. She has been eating chicken quarters only up until today and doing very well on them. I think I may be overfeeding her... as 10lb of chicken only lasts me between 3 and 4 days, but I'm not sure. Today she had pork for the first time. My bf and I are having ribs for dinner and we gave Nova (and his Lab Juniper) some ribs for dinner. Nova loved them, of course. Juniper is not on raw and this was just a RMB for him to munch on, so it took him quite a bit longer to figure out what to do with the ribs, but he enjoyed it as well. Trying to get the bf to give him RMB's more often. He is on Acana kibble, but I think his teeth would really benefit from it. Anyway, just thought I would update for those who were wondering how we were doing!


----------



## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

Thank you for posting the video of Nova eating a chicken leg. I was amazed that she just stood eating it from her bowl just as she would if it was kibble. I would have thought she would have grabbed it, lay down (lie down?) and placed it between her front legs to get a grip on it and chew.

Now here is a question that I just can't seem to get my head around relating to chicken. When I was growing up my mom would caution about letting the dog eat chicken because the bones were small, and sharp and could puncture her throat or stomach. I have always held this belief but now I read (and see) raw chicken being fed. Why is there no worry about small bones? 

Thanks.

p.s. I sent my hubby out to get pig's feet today and he went to four stores and no one had them. He put a request in with the butcher at our local store...so maybe next week I will start with pig's feet.


----------



## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

truelovepoodles said:


> Thank you for posting the video of Nova eating a chicken leg. I was amazed that she just stood eating it from her bowl just as she would if it was kibble. I would have thought she would have grabbed it, lay down (lie down?) and placed it between her front legs to get a grip on it and chew.
> 
> Now here is a question that I just can't seem to get my head around relating to chicken. When I was growing up my mom would caution about letting the dog eat chicken because the bones were small, and sharp and could puncture her throat or stomach. I have always held this belief but now I read (and see) raw chicken being fed. * Why is there no worry about small bones? *
> 
> ...


Actually there is LOTS of worry about small bones. Small bones are major choking hazard. You should never feed bones that are so small your dog does not have to work to chew them up (the rule of thumb is nothing smaller than your dogs head - I break that rule slightly - but a chicken quarter or back is the smallest thing I will feed.)

Raw bones are not a concern, so long as they are not inappropriately small or weight bearing bones from large mammals. This is because the bones are soft and pliable. The concerns you heard growing up about chicken bones apply to COOKED chicken bones - which are VERY dangerous.


----------



## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Exactly what ChocolateMillie said :amen:

Raw bones do not splinter like cooked bones do. As long as they are size appropriate for the dog, the dog crushes them with the teeth (again, they don't splinter; the closest comparison I can think of is you crunching a carrot?) so they aren't "sharp" and don't pose a threat of puncturing the throat or stomach. The dog's stomach acid is so strong that all bone is completely broken down. The only choking hazard is if you feed a bone-in piece of meat that is too small and your dog swallows it whole. The problem here is it could get lodged in the throat. 

In regards to pigs feet, hopefully you can get some! I found some at our Wal-Mart, but they are really small. Too small for me to feel comfortable giving them to Nova. I'm trying to hunt down some larger ones. I need to find a local butcher... I have no idea if there is an actual "butcher" around here.

In regards to the video, it took her so long to figure out how to eat it, but no she doesn't lie down and use her feet the way she does when chewing a toy. She usually drags it out of the bowl now and eats it directly off the kennel floor, but she is very clean about it. Juniper did lie down while eating his ribs today, but he didn't use his feet (he is just lazy and didn't want to stand lol). It's very interesting to watch. Both of my roommates have dogs, and one of them fed her dogs raw for a while when she lived with her parents but no longer does. The other girl had never even heard of it and is absolutely amazed. She just stares in wonder at Nova when she is chomping away at her dinner!


----------

