# Merles: pure or mutts



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Red breeders and especially cream breeders have historically bred to black dogs regularly to improve type. If there were Merle genes hidden in the breed - they would have been found during one of those breedings. They would also have been found from double Merle (blind or deaf) pups if two Merle carrying red or cream dogs were bred, especially as inbreeding and line breeding were quite popular in an attempt to create consistent type. 

It's a much more believable proposition that sometime in the last decade or two, one or more people have crossed in another breed than that Merles hid in the population for hundreds of years without anyone writing about one or photographing one. In fact, there have been a few people with AKC registered Merle poodles who have discovered other breeds when they have run a DNA test.

A double Merle In a breed containing apricots, reds, creams, is a dangerous risk, and the collie genes that likely brought it in have brought in the risk of MdR1 sensitivity (which makes normal veterinary medications potentially deadly, and is very common in collies) - both risking the health of members of the breed. Poodles are suddenly the only retriever listed as recommended to test for MDR1 when in the past this was unheard of - there is a reason for that! 

Parti poodles are not as frowned upon because the parti gene does not confer health risks and has definitely been recorded in the breed forever. There are plenty of records of breeders discovering accidental parti puppies in their littwrs, or even deliberately breeding parti dogs since the beginning of the breed and some of the original standards listed parti as a colour. 
The best explanation I found for why they are not in the current standard was that they often have two different coat textures in the two colours, so are harder to groom nicely!


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Apricots, whites, creams, and reds are frequently bred to blacks. If they were hiding merle, it should have shown up long before it did. If it was there early on, it was evidently bred out pretty quickly. There really aren't that many breeds that have a long tradition of being merle, and most of them are herding breeds. 

And there _is _a lot of negativity towards parti-colored (and other multi-colored dogs) in some circles, despite the fact that they have been in the breed pretty much from the beginning. The first Poodle I ever remember seeing was in the very early 1970s, and it was a Mini parti-color, mostly white with a few apricot spots. Illustrations and paintings from the 1700s and1800s frequently showed parti-colored dogs.


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

I am not an expert in merle but what you are saying seems to ignore the major health issues that can arise from double merle. If the merle gene were simply hiding in the colors that that "hide" the pattern then one would think the dogs being bred color to color would have presented the major health problems and deformities that come from double merle long before the recent fad of trying to create merle "poodles."

It would not make sense for breeders to continue to use dogs for breeding that they had to consistently cull the offspring of due to major genetic health issues.


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

The earliest written records of poodles as well as depictions of them in paintings show parti poodles. They have been a part of the breed from the beginning. The decision to exclude them in favour of solids came much later and there still isnt a consensus as to whether that was the right thing to do.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

This has been Stickied by the PF Moderators because of the valuable information from a credible source.

(10) The merle poodle by Barbara Hoopes | Poodle Forum

More here
Dog Coat Colour Genetics (doggenetics.co.uk)

and for parti's, here's some history from The Poodle History Project. It can now only be accessed thru the Internet Archive online.

PBSTD (archive.org)

Old-time breed descriptions of Poodles include Caius' description of a 16th century Water Dog , Markham's description of a 17th century Water Dogge, and the various descriptions in Rare books. Perhaps the most interesting of these in the context of a discussion of breed standards is that of Furness (1891) who was writing during the period of foundation of the various kennel clubs (The Kennel Club, 1873; AKC, 1884; CKC, 1888; UKC, 1898). Furness wrote a description; however, his text appears--lightly edited--in the first volume of POODLES IN AMERICA (1960) as a pre-breed-standard. Typically, those writing these descriptions were very knowledgeable about sound generic conformation--so they were not uncritical--but they were relatively unjudgemental in relation to regional variations and other inessentials relative to function and correct temperament to perform that function. By contrast, a breed standard is by definition judgmental, and, perhaps most important, is restricted to what the eye can see: the working essentials of correct temperament are merely implicit in any breed standard.

*Breed standard (1886)*
Five years before Furness published his description, The Poodle Club (1886) in England set the linked standard.

R1FURNESS (archive.org)

For no clearly specified reason found in any documentation, by the time official breed standards were being written, parti's were being "bred out". The Kennel Clubs were specifying solid colors only, possibly because the parti was commonly seen (everyman's poodle) and solids may have been more exclusive. 

There's another quote from TPHP from the 1930's


Andress (archive.org)
_"Miss Lane has started the particolored Poodle in England and I saw a litter of particolored puppies, very evenly marked black and white, with all black leathers, and white muzzles. At present in England they have a special particolored class for these Poodles, and Miss Lane tells me that they are becoming increasingly popular. I must confess that as a conservative, I do not like them, feeling that, as we have worked so long to get the solid color, Poodles should remain solid color. But I must admit that for particolors these dogs were most evenly marked, and quite stylish in appearance."_


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

There are only a handful of breeds that merle naturally occurs in, and suddenly there is a explosion of merle in all breeds ( I mean like the last 10-20yrs)
Take the French bulldog occurs in these colors
"Brindle, Brindle & White, Cream, Fawn, Fawn & White, Fawn Brindle, White, White & Brindle, and white & fawn

Looky we have new "rare" colors like black, merle, blue, chocolate, now having tan points.

Thanks to marketing ploys by less than ethical breeders,, same folks the brought teacup to lots of breeds without thought of what it would do.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

In case ya wanna know those breeds are
Australian Shepherd, Beauceron, Bergamasco, Border Collie, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Dachshund (colour known as dapple), Great Dane, Long Haired Pyrenean Sheepdog, Rough Collie, Shetland Sheepdog, Australian Sheep dog and Smooth Collie


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

Mudi also come in merle, as well as Koolies.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

TeamHellhound said:


> Mudi also come in merle, as well as Koolies.


I did see that, though I couldn't quickly find that on a reputable website


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

twyla said:


> I did see that, though I couldn't quickly find that on a reputable website


Well according to FCI breed standards: 

The Mudi allows the following colours: 
Colour:
• Fawn.
• Black.
• Blue-merle, i.e. black speckled, estriped, -brindle or -spotted on
lighter or darker bluish-grey primary colour.
• Ash coloured (blue grey).
• Brown.
Only slightly extensive white markings are tolerated but not desired.
A white patch on the chest, less than 5 cm in diameter, and small
white markings on the toes are tolerated but not desired.
• White.

@TeamHellhound which breed is the koolie? do you mean the dutch Kookierhondje?


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Koolie is an Australian breed


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## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

twyla said:


> Koolie is an Australian breed


Interesting, I had never heard of them before. But it looks like they were bred from imported british working dogs including border collies so it makes sense that they also come in merle.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

The people who bred Rusty said that he would be carrying merle genes. I now know from this excellent forum that that is not a good thing!

Rusty is a good thing and will definately not be bred from (merle genes or no).


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## Misteline (Mar 10, 2019)

Tulsi said:


> The people who bred Rusty said that he would be carrying merle genes. I now know from this excellent forum that that is not a good thing!
> 
> Rusty is a good thing and will definately not be bred from (merle genes or no).
> 
> View attachment 481799


While it is good they told you, it's unfortunate they didn't give you any further information. I'm happy the forum was able to give you more info so you can watch out for the medication sensitivities that can be associated with those genes.

Rusty is of course adorable. Good on you for choosing not to breed him.


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

twyla said:


> I did see that, though I couldn't quickly find that on a reputable website


As mentioned, they are an FCI breed, as well as United Kennel Club recognized here in the US.




curlflooffan said:


> @TeamHellhound which breed is the koolie? do you mean the dutch Kookierhondje?


The Koolie (aka Australian Koolie or German "spelled with a C instead of a K Koolie") is recognized by the Koolie Club of Australia and the Australian Koolie Breeders International.


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## Tulsi (Jun 8, 2021)

Misteline said:


> While it is good they told you, it's unfortunate they didn't give you any further information. I'm happy the forum was able to give you more info so you can watch out for the medication sensitivities that can be associated with those genes.
> 
> Rusty is of course adorable. Good on you for choosing not to breed him.


They had it written on the advert as a positive selling point!


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## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

A couple more merle breeds are the American Leopard Hound (aka Leopard Cur) and the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog (aka Catahoula Cur). Leopard Hounds are all purpose scent hounds, hunting anything from racoons to bears, cougars, and game. Catahoula are all purpose farm dogs, used for herding, guarding, and hunting anything from squirrels to feral hogs.


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