# Albino puppy??



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

You have a white puppy, their points as in nose and toes darken later


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

I sure hope so! I have been so worried. I got the mom 2 months ago not knowing she was pregnant. As she got a bigger belly, I could tell. The previous owner would not return my messages or calls. Finally after 6 weeks he called and informed me that her full brother is the father of the puppies. What a nightmare as we all know this is not good, ethical or responsible to say the least. So the pups are 3 days old now and I am just hoping that they will all be ok. Because of the inbreeding, I was super afraid that this may be a blind/deaf puppy.... I will kepp you all posted. Thank you!


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## PoodleJoon (3 mo ago)

Cynthia O said:


> I sure hope so! I have been so worried. I got the mom 2 months ago not knowing she was pregnant. As she got a bigger belly, I could tell. The previous owner would not return my messages or calls. Finally after 6 weeks he called and informed me that her full brother is the father of the puppies. What a nightmare as we all know this is not good, ethical or responsible to say the least. So the pups are 3 days old now and I am just hoping that they will all be ok. Because of the inbreeding, I was super afraid that this may be a blind/deaf puppy.... I will kepp you all posted. Thank you!


omg what a terrible position to be put in. Hoping for the best for these pups


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I am surprised the pregnancy didn't spontaneously abort, I hope the best for the puppies but having handicapped pets previously I know the trials


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

PoodleJoon said:


> omg what a terrible position to be put in. Hoping for the best for these pups


Thank you.... yes it was aweful that this man was not honest. Whatever the outcome, each of the pups will have a loving home.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

twyla said:


> I am surprised the pregnancy didn't spontaneously abort, I hope the best for the puppies but having handicapped pets previously I know the trials


Yes.. I have been reading so much on this subject that it is scary. I just hope they can all live happy lives...


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Wow, I'm sure this was not the surprise you wanted in the middle of your holiday preparations. I agree the pup is most likely a white or pale cream. Have you been reading up on early puppy socialization and stimulation?


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

Most white/cream pups are born with pink noses and paw pads. The nose should start to darken gradually. You should notice around 7 to 10 days old.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

No I havent but I will for sure. Thanks for the suggestion. I just one of the choc females was gone. I dont know if mom laid on her or what. Ive been able to save her from doing that everytime during these 3 days but somehow not this time. It really sucks!!!!!!!!!!


cowpony said:


> Wow, I'm sure this was not the surprise you wanted in the middle of your holiday preparations. I agree the pup is most likely a white or pale cream. Have you been reading up on early puppy socialization and stimulation?


I havent but I will. Thank you for the suggestion. I have been able to save puppies thus far from her laying on them until 5 mins ago. I found the choc fem had died. I dont know if mom laid on her or what. One min she was strong and eating great and a short time later I found her away from the other pups. Mom was out of the whelping box laying down.
This is too sad.


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## Kukla the Tpoo (11 mo ago)

I'm so sorry to hear about this situation you were put in because of the truth being withheld from you. I'm also sorry about the one puppy you just lost - very sad. I hope the others do well.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Oh my heart  Rest in peace, little one.

Are you receiving guidance from a veterinarian and/or an experienced breeder?


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

Wishing the best for you, your poodle and puppies. So sad to lose one so suddenly.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

That really sucks about the brown pup.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Looniesense said:


> Most white/cream pups are born with pink noses and paw pads. The nose should start to darken gradually. You should notice around 7 to 10 days old.





Looniesense said:


> Most white/cream pups are born with pink noses and paw pads. The nose should start to darken gradually. You should notice around 7 to 10 days old.





Kukla the Tpoo said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about this situation you were put in because of the truth being withheld from you. I'm also sorry about the one puppy you just lost - very sad. I hope the others do well.


Thank you very much.... I just came home from back surgery so its been challenging. She jumped up on my bed and had her pups on my $3000 tempurpedic mattress! Thank goodness for mattress protectors! I guess she prefered that over her new whelping box. I couldnt move fast enough or lift her off of my bed... Friends helped me clean up and do the laundry after she finished! Gotta love that!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Please reach out to your vet. They should be seen as soon as possible. Mama too, it's important to be sure she doesn't need any sort of extra medical or nutritional support.

Wishing you all well. I'm sorry about the little brown girl; this just makes the need for the veterinarian a bit more key.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Oh, that's so heartbreaking about the little brown baby :'( I do think reaching out to the vet for help is imperative. Please keep us posted!


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

First of all, you may not need to worry about the brother-sister breeding if there are no closely related dogs in the previous 4-5 generations. People who are good, careful breeders sometimes do that kind of breeding to fix desirable characteristics. Anyone who wants to breed one of the puppies from this current breeding should be very, very careful to outcross and to be very selective about the dogs selected. 

Inbreeding should be only be done by people with deep knowledge of the dogs in the pedigrees of the sire and dam.

Do try to find an experience breeder - not necessarily of poodles - who can help you.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Streetcar said:


> Please reach out to your vet. They should be seen as soon as possible. Mama too, it's important to be sure she doesn't need any sort of extra medical or nutritional support.
> 
> Wishing you all well. I'm sorry about the little brown girl; this just makes the need for the veterinarian a bit more key.


Yes..thank you! They have already seen the vet and have a follow up in 3 weeks. Momma is on xtra supplements for support as well.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Johanna said:


> First of all, you may not need to worry about the brother-sister breeding if there are no closely related dogs in the previous 4-5 generations. People who are good, careful breeders sometimes do that kind of breeding to fix desirable characteristics. Anyone who wants to breed one of the puppies from this current breeding should be very, very careful to outcross and to be very selective about the dogs selected.
> 
> Inbreeding should be only be done by people with deep knowledge of the dogs in the pedigrees of the sire and dam.
> 
> Do try to find an experience breeder - not necessarily of poodles - who can help you.


Thank you.... Ive read some articles regarding that as well. It's a bit confusing as some articles focus on all that can go wrong which is scary. I have her pedigree on order but haven't received it back yet. I was planning on selling the healthy pups for $850 and a contract for spay and neuter that will refund $400 with proof. Not sure if that is a good idea or ? Thoughts?


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Oh, that's so heartbreaking about the little brown baby :'( I do think reaching out to the vet for help is imperative. Please keep us posted!


Thank you! Thwy have seen my vet and have a follow up in 3 weeks.. All seem healthy at this point. One little runt girl that I bottle feed every 2 hours is coming along. She is a parti color. I will keep you posted for sure!


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh my heart  Rest in peace, little one.
> 
> Are you receiving guidance from a veterinarian and/or an experienced breeder?


So far they have seen my vet. I dont know any breeders in the area. I used to breed lhasas years ago


PeggyTheParti said:


> Oh my heart  Rest in peace, little one.
> 
> Are you receiving guidance from a veterinarian and/or an experienced breeder?


I dont know any breeders.. they have seen the vet and have a follow up scheduled. I used to breed lhasa apsos years ago but never inline breeding. Hopefully all will continue to get easier. This has been stressful for sure!


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> That really sucks about the brown pup.


I know... I was checking so frequently and I just kick myself that maybe if???


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Wishing the best for you, your poodle and puppies. So sad to lose one so suddenly.


Yes.. it broke my heart! Always wondering what I missed.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Kukla the Tpoo said:


> I'm so sorry to hear about this situation you were put in because of the truth being withheld from you. I'm also sorry about the one puppy you just lost - very sad. I hope the others do well.


Thank you...


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Maybe it is just the lighting in the the photo but that "white" puppy looks like it might be a parti- white with cream markings. As for oops litters... when I was 20, I was dog sitting a pair of Irish setters for four weeks and they managed to produce a surprise litter of thirteen puppies. It wasn't too bad, at first, but once they started moving around I had to make sure to do a careful head count when I shifted them from place to place for cleaning. All 13 pups thrived. Good thing I was young, and energetic.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Charmed said:


> Maybe it is just the lighting in the the photo but that "white" puppy looks like it might be a parti- white with cream markings. As for oops litters... when I was 20, I was dog sitting a pair of Irish setters for four weeks and they managed to produce a surprise litter of thirteen puppies. It wasn't too bad, at first, but once they started moving around I had to make sure to do a careful head count when I shifted them from place to place for cleaning. All 13 pups thrived. Good thing I was young, and energetic.


13...wow! That's wonderful that they all survived. My girl has already laid on puppues 3 times this morning and I was able to intervene. She was 10 months old when he let her breed... she had the puppies exactly on her birthday...dec 7th. She is just a puppy herself so Im sure that is part of the issue. She is trying so hard to be a good, attentive mommy.


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## Looniesense (Jul 10, 2021)

Found this that might be helpful.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Asap, get yourself connected with a vet who's familiar with whelping and raising litters if there isn't a breeder to help advise you. You, momma, and the puppies need back up stat!

This resource will get you started til then. Skip the pre stage and go straight to the post stage.
(8) Nearly Everything You Want to Know About The Technical Aspects of Breeding | Poodle Forum

(Saw after posting that you have had experience so think of the above resource as a refresher til you get connected with the experienced vet.)


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cynthia O said:


> Thank you.... Ive read some articles regarding that as well. It's a bit confusing as some articles focus on all that can go wrong which is scary. I have her pedigree on order but haven't received it back yet. *I was planning on selling the healthy pups for $850 and a contract for spay and neuter that will refund $400 with proof. Not sure if that is a good idea or ? Thoughts?*


Way too soon to be thinking about this. You might want to consider at least DNA testing on the surviving litter before thinking about future homes.

One option
Embark for Breeders dog DNA test kits – Embark Vet

This site might be helpful for information on the inbreeding issues and on the puppy raising.
Dog Breeding — FREE Ultimate Guide On How To Breed Dogs (breedingbusiness.com)

Informed buyers will be looking for Poodle Club of America/Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (PCA/OFA) health tested parents. That testing includes eyes (exam and DNA) patellae,hips, cardiac, thyroid, (exams) and more, depending on the poodle variety.

When you get the pedigree, you can check on OFA to see if any dogs in their history have had any of the recommended testing. 

Failing that, since that was out of your control, DNA testing of the pups is better than nothing as they are too young now and will be, for a year for PCA/OFA prelim testing, and two years for adult testing.

Spay/neuter is a good thought but how will you enforce that in a contract?
I'm guessing these are standards, by the size of the pups and the litter, and current science is leaning far away from the pediatric/juvenile desexing due to potential health issues from the too soon removal of hormones.

Good vet care with an involved vet, using Puppy Culture or similar early socialization, and doing the testing that you can shows that you've invested in a best outcome for these pups and their new someday families.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

The most important thing that I haven't said: 

You didn't ask for this, you were blindsided, and the timing could hardly have been worse.

Brava to you for doing all you can to make this better for your pup and her pups! 

If you find yourself in too deep, one of the regional Poodle Club rescues might have suggestions or resources.

Poodle Rescue (poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org)


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I also noticed you casually mentioned you are coping with this after having had back surgery yourself?! Oy! All the bending and cleaning must be extra wretched for you if your spine isn't 100%.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> The most important thing that I haven't said:
> 
> You didn't ask for this, you were blindsided, and the timing could hardly have been worse.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this wonderful info. 8 years ago I had my male poodle tested that I had purchased. He had passed every test with flying colors...eyes, dna, heart, etc....then failed the hips. Had 2nd opinion..failed again so I had him neutered at 3 years old. Then my second male... I just had him neutered at 2 yrs old as he is pet quality..no papers. I planned on having this little girl spayed as well but as you already know, I have to wait a bit. I wont have info on the father/brothers papers .. only my female that had pups. The guy that let them breed is a jerk and I blocked him from communicating. The pups that get a clean bill of health will not be papered so I thought a $400 refund for proof of spay would be a good incentive to have it done. I like to think ahead... just throwing ideas around.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Looniesense said:


> Found this that might be helpful.
> View attachment 501094


I thoght about this. She seems to lay on them even when they are in the middle of the box though. They cant seem to wiggle out from underneath so I have to move her which kills my back! Not much else I can do to get her offbof them though.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> I also noticed you casually mentioned you are coping with this after having had back surgery yourself?! Oy! All the bending and cleaning must be extra wretched for you if your spine isn't 100%.


Yes... I had surgery nov 16th..got home on the 20th due to comlications. (They tore my spinal cord dura and fluid leaked out)... It has been a grueling recovery in which I am still in bed 75% of the time. They removed a disc and did an interbody fusion. Nerve damage and pain killers dont help some of the time. Im not supposed to bend at all but I have had to in this puppy situation which makes me really sore. Gotta do whatcha gotta do, right?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Cynthia O said:


> Im not supposed to bend at all but I have had to in this puppy situation which makes me really sore. Gotta do whatcha gotta do, right?


Could your recovery team have some equipment suggestions that might allow you to move her without undoing you? 
Babies would present a similar challenge, I'd think, so surely there's something!?


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## Haitch (6 mo ago)

Line breeding was common years ago ,even sire back to daughter at times …urgh I know .
one thing I might try would be to remove the mum , and put her back in every couple of hours to prevent more laying on puppies , I can hear the shrieks now ! 
My 9 month old pup still loves to lay on my other dog , soft toys etc , seems like a puppy thing , which she still is , her previous owner was indeed an eeejit ! 
All the best with your puppies , your back , kind regards and best wishes


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Could your recovery team have some equipment suggestions that might allow you to move her without undoing you?
> Babies would present a similar challenge, I'd think, so surely there's something!?


I have a back brace and am learning how to move while keeping my back straight. The lifting is the most difficult.... PT helps 2 times a week.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Haitch said:


> Line breeding was common years ago ,even sire back to daughter at times …urgh I know .
> one thing I might try would be to remove the mum , and put her back in every couple of hours to prevent more laying on puppies , I can hear the shrieks now !
> My 9 month old pup still loves to lay on my other dog , soft toys etc , seems like a puppy thing , which she still is , her previous owner was indeed an eeejit !
> All the best with your puppies , your back , kind regards and best wishes


Thank you! Yes I have separated her for short periods of time but not much. Last night I was up every hour checking on her. She is at the end of my bed so I have to get up to see. No other place in my room will work.  I had to feed the little runt wvery hour anyway. The runt is not doing well. She is at the vet now on fluids, heat, sugar and oxygen. 4 sleepless nights so far. They just called as I was posting and she didnt make it.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Oh no. Not another heartbreak.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> Oh no. Not another heartbreak.


Yes and she took a piece of my heart... couldnt keep her temp up for aome reason. Got her to the vet. On oxygen, got her temp up and sugar stable. They thought she was stable but she became unresponsive and died minutes later. It really bites!!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'm so sorry, Cynthia. Praying for the other puppies to thrive, and for you to be able to get some much-needed sleep soon.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

MaizieFrosty said:


> I'm so sorry, Cynthia. Praying for the other puppies to thrive, and for you to be able to get some much-needed sleep soon.


Thank you! I'd stay up many more nights if needed..... I sure wish she would have pulled through! I have to look ahead. She has 4 beautiful boy pups that appear to be doing well. They have my time and love now.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

So you lost both females, one of which was the parti? Sniff. I was rooting for the parti. I'd never be able to breed animals for resale.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> So you lost both females, one of which was the parti? Sniff. I was rooting for the parti. I'd never be able to breed animals for resale.


Yes..lost a little choc colored female and the little brwn and white fwmale runt. She fought a hard fight for 4 days.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Ugh, I hate losing babies. It just seems so unfair.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Charmed said:


> Ugh, I hate losing babies. It just seems so unfair.


It is.... especially when they try and we try soooo hard.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

94Magna_Tom said:


> Wishing the best for you, your poodle and puppies. So sad to lose one so suddenly.


Thank you


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Rose n Poos said:


> Asap, get yourself connected with a vet who's familiar with whelping and raising litters if there isn't a breeder to help advise you. You, momma, and the puppies need back up stat!
> 
> This resource will get you started til then. Skip the pre stage and go straight to the post stage.
> (8) Nearly Everything You Want to Know About The Technical Aspects of Breeding | Poodle Forum
> ...


Thank you so very much. Everyone on this forum has been wonderful!


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

cowpony said:


> So you lost both females, one of which was the parti? Sniff. I was rooting for the parti. I'd never be able to breed animals for resale.


I used to breed lahsa apsos for resale years ago. I quit because Im such a sissy. Every puppy that sold I would cry and the buyers would feel bad.... This was sooooo unplanned on my part at 64 years old. It is rewarding as well. They are so precious. When it goes wrong though, it tears me apart.


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## Kukla the Tpoo (11 mo ago)

It's heartbreaking that you lost another one. I'm so very sorry.


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## SteveS55 (7 mo ago)

Cynthia O said:


> I used to breed lahsa apsos for resale years ago. I quit because Im such a sissy. Every puppy that sold I would cry and the buyers would feel bad.... This was sooooo unplanned on my part at 64 years old. It is rewarding as well. They are so precious. When it goes wrong though, it tears me apart.


I'm sorry you lost a little one. I'm sure that's a negative by-product of breeding. The breeder I got Rhonda from teared up when I put her in my car. I felt bad too, but I got over it.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Kukla the Tpoo said:


> It's heartbreaking that you lost another one. I'm so very sorry.


Thank you....better days are ahead!


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## thataway4 (Sep 2, 2020)

We are so sad to hear of all of the problems, and then on top; the loss of two pups. Hard for the human heart to bear some times. Cynthia, as a physician, and one who has long term back surgery, you need physical help with the pups and mom. You are running risks of further injury to yourself and a prolonged recovery for you. 

Are there any friends, dog rescue groups etc who could help you? This seems important for both you and all of the poodles. 

Best regards.


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## Starvt (Nov 5, 2019)

Your vet or a local dog sitter might know of a high school student, vet tech student, etc who could help out with you giving directions.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

thataway4 said:


> We are so sad to hear of all of the problems, and then on top; the loss of two pups. Hard for the human heart to bear some times. Cynthia, as a physician, and one who has long term back surgery, you need physical help with the pups and mom. You are running risks of further injury to yourself and a prolonged recovery for you.
> 
> Are there any friends, dog rescue groups etc who could help you? This seems important for both you and all of the poodles.
> 
> Best regards.


Thank you.... I don't have anyone to help with the pups on an around the clock basis. I have someone who changes the bedding out in their box frequently. I think momma has settled in with the 4 pups that are left. I shouldn't have to be getting up as much now through the wee hours. PT went well yesterday other than super tight glutes and periformis on the left side..... will have xrays on the 28th to make sure everything is in place still. I know my recovery is more painful than it could be but I don't see any other way I coukd have done it. I was as careful as I could be. Wore my back brace which helped. I'll keep you all posted... especially on the colors of the pups and progress. Thank you again!


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Starvt said:


> Your vet or a local dog sitter might know of a high school student, vet tech student, etc who could help out with you giving directions.


I should have thought of more resources... I think Im over the hump now. I was in survival mode for 6 days and just had to get r done.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Well...it's been a week now since Bella's litter entered into this world. Bella is doing well and it appears that the surviving 4 puppies are doing well too. They certainly are growing! I am getting a little more sleep and rest for my back now. I think we are all gonna make it!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hope this is the tide having turned for you all. This has been one heckuva rollercoaster but there is hope at the end.


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## Country Girl (Aug 31, 2020)

Prayers for all of you


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## Jilly SummerSunset (Sep 16, 2020)

Cynthia O said:


> No I havent but I will for sure. Thanks for the suggestion. I just one of the choc females was gone. I dont know if mom laid on her or what. Ive been able to save her from doing that everytime during these 3 days but somehow not this time. It really sucks!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> I havent but I will. Thank you for the suggestion. I have been able to save puppies thus far from her laying on them until 5 mins ago. I found the choc fem had died. I dont know if mom laid on her or what. One min she was strong and eating great and a short time later I found her away from the other pups. Mom was out of the whelping box laying down.
> This is too sad.


Mom's do that because there is something wrong physically. Check their mouths for cleft palates. I had an entire litter of German Shepherd pups be layed upon by mom. 6 pups died








. They all were born with cleft palates. One pup kept sneaking underneath where mom couldn't reach her. I had to bottle feed every two hours and kept her in an igloo cooler with a heating pad in the bottom til she weighed enough to have the palette fixed after 6 weeks and correct weight. She lived to be 12 1/2 years old.


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## Syleste (Feb 11, 2021)

While it is certainly not what you want, first generation inbreeding is generally not catastrophic. This pup is a typical light pop and will darken with time. Relax and enjoy your puppies.

You should not hesitate to consult with a longtime breeder, and s/he will likely reassure you.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Jilly SummerSunset said:


> Mom's do that because there is something wrong physically. Check their mouths for cleft palates. I had an entire litter of German Shepherd pups be layed upon by mom. 6 pups died
> View attachment 501266
> 
> . They all were born with cleft palates. One pup kept sneaking underneath where mom couldn't reach her. I had to bottle feed every two hours and kept her in an igloo cooler with a heating pad in the bottom til she weighed enough to have the palette fixed after 6 weeks and correct weight. She lived to be 12 1/2 years old.


Awwww sorry for your loss too. It's so sad!


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

Syleste said:


> While it is certainly not what you want, first generation inbreeding is generally not catastrophic. This pup is a typical light pop and will darken with time. Relax and enjoy your puppies.
> 
> You should not hesitate to consult with a longtime breeder, and s/he will likely reassure you.


Thank you so much for the positive information!


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Cynthia O said:


> Thank you very much.... I just came home from back surgery so its been challenging. She jumped up on my bed and had her pups on my $3000 tempurpedic mattress! Thank goodness for mattress protectors! I guess she prefered that over her new whelping box. I couldnt move fast enough or lift her off of my bed... Friends helped me clean up and do the laundry after she finished! Gotta love that!


Oh my gosh. Recovering from back surgery, and raising a litter of pups are both big jobs. I can't imagine doing both at once. Sending strength and energy.


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## Cynthia O (1 mo ago)

kontiki said:


> Oh my gosh. Recovering from back surgery, and raising a litter of pups are both big jobs. I can't imagine doing both at once. Sending strength and energy.


Thank you very much!!!!


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