# Non-solid poodles.



## puppylove

I saw a very pretty standard parti at the park one day that I really liked. It's the only one I've ever seen in person. I am an amatuer, though.


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## Raiko

The only phantoms I like are black and white, and the only partis I like are tuxido black and white or all white with a black head and tail.

Not a fan of the spotted partis, I agree with the cow thing lol, but ones with a couple large black splotches are okay.

I would personally not get a parti from a partibreeder... as I would be nervious it would end up like many other partis... all blotchy with white littered with mini black spots making it look like it was trampled by a hundred muddy cats..


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## Purple Poodle

I love Multicolored Poodles! 

The only colors I do not care for are Sable and brindle, they do not look proper on a long coat.

I also prefer Partis with little or no ticking. I am a Black and Tan fan as Rottweilers were my main breed since I was little and I will one day have another Phantom. My Toy is a silver Phantom and I think she is gorgeous.

I think with the Multicolored Poodles it adds more to the personality.


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## Raiko

there are brindle and sable poodles.....


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## cbrand

It is the rare Parti who has markings that are symmetrical enough to "add' to the total picture. Most have markings that detract from a Poodle's outline or the movement. 

It is the rare Parti who has conformation, coat and movement as good as that of its solid brethren. 

There is exactly 1 Parti breeder I ever recommend. 

http://www.tintlet.com/index.htm (Her dogs are UKC Grand Champions)

Otherwise, pretty much every Parti breeders I've ever come across has breeding practices that I don't agree with. I usually find them to be high volume breeders who are charging big $$$ for low quality dogs.


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## Cdnjennga

I like the look of some partis (you can just look at my avatar maybe to see why ). But Cbrand hit the nail on the head for me, I just feel like some of the breeding practices are questionable.

I almost settled on a parti large toy/ mini for myself. But in the end I just wasn't comfortable with the breeding. So now it's black all the way for me!


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> There is exactly 1 Parti breeder I ever recommend.
> 
> http://www.tintlet.com/index.htm (Her dogs are UKC Grand Champions)


Pretty dogs on that website. Their dog Rune has gorgeous markings. And nice to see titles on both the front and back ends!


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## Fluffyspoos

I personally love all colors, patterns, and types of poodles ^^ as long as they're healthy and good mannered, I'm not picky.


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## T o d d

I'd like a brindle poodle!!!
Moose is so short and if he was brnidle I think it would be sexay in a dog sorta way  L O L!!


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## Raiko

can someone show me a pic of a brindle and sable poodle? I have never heard of that


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## Spoofer

We recently got our puppy, Smurfy, (solid dark apricot), and we really researched parti-color poodles before we found Smurfy's breeder. I wasn't happy with the pedigrees I was seeing. I think they're beautiful, very unique, but I was really worried about inbreeding and genetic problems.


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## aki

I'll admit at first I wasn't too fond of partis, but they have really grown on me and I now find I enjoy them immensely. I was considering a parti, but like others have said I wasn't completely satisfied with the breeding programs. With the demand and popularity of partis, teacups, and whatever else is trendy, it's hard to find a good reputable breeder in the swarm of unsatisfactory ones. For me it's challenging to find a good toy breeder(with the color I want), or a good parti breeder ATM. I settled for a solid colored standard. Much easier to find a breeder IMO.

As for brindles, sables, and phantoms...I'm not a fan. I guess for a poodle I don't like that much multicolor, on top of brindle and sable not looking very nice on a long coat. I don't like the "eyebrows" on phantoms...it looks weird on a poodle for me.

Here's a website explaining brindles and sables
http://arpeggiopoodles.tripod.com/poodlecoatcolorsbrindleandsable.html

And then some pictures. First one is a brindle, second one sable.


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## Raiko

Oooh those are neat looking


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## Raiko

but the sable in the arrpeggio poodles was... not too nice looking imo.

The brindle was hard to see in their pics =/ Id like to see it on a normal pet or lamb cut, it on that cut just looked bad


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## Fluffyspoos

I looooove brindle poodles. Here's another









And here's the same dog that Aki linked, from the first image, but as an adult. His brown turned silver.


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## Raiko

the silver looks pretty cool brindled


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## Fluffyspoos

The one I linked actually has a litter on the ground that he sired:
http://web.mac.com/frenchiesgroomery/standardpartipoodles/AVAILABLE_PUPPIES.html

I bet some of the sables might turn silver like him


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## bigpoodleperson

I know someone who just got a Tinlet puppy a couple weeks ago and is very pleased! She has a parti baby, but he has bigger black spots. 

I completely agree about not being able to find good breeders (heck, it is hard enough to find a good solid breeder!). I think that is the main problem for me, but i still dont like most of the non solid colors.


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## cbrand

Fluffyspoos said:


> I looooove brindle poodles. Here's another
> 
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> 
> Here is a good example of what I'm talking about re: Partis. Now this may just be a poor picture so we will give her the benefit of the doubt. However, in this picture she clearly looks high in the rear and almost like she is long an roachy over the loin.
> 
> Also, her movement in not balanced. Her diagonal legs should be even in their movement. In this picture, her back left leg is higher off the ground than his right front leg. She looks like he is moving downhill while the desirable movement is more "uphill".
> 
> (edited because I just realized this is probably a bitch and I had to change the pronouns.


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## wishpoo

bigpoodleperson said:


> I know someone who just got a Tinlet puppy a couple weeks ago and is very pleased! She has a parti baby, but he has bigger black spots.
> 
> I completely agree about not being able to find good breeders (heck, it is hard enough to find a good solid breeder!). I think that is the main problem for me, but i still dont like most of the non solid colors.


I can only second this - finding a good and honest breeder for solids is a big task , not to mention parti-poos !!!! I searched loooooooong and hard (couple of years) , until I found people whom I trust with no reservations. And I contacted top show breeders, as well as aspiring show breeders. There are links on the web for all test results (OFA and CERF) and I was astonished how may times I was lied about results or even testing done AT ALL !!!!


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## Purple Poodle

Fluffyspoos said:


> Here is a good example of what I'm talking about re: Partis. Now this may just be a poor picture so we will give her the benefit of the doubt. However, in this picture she clearly looks high in the rear and almost like she is long an roachy over the loin.
> 
> Also, her movement in not balanced. Her diagonal legs should be even in their movement. In this picture, her back left leg is higher off the ground than his right front leg. She looks like he is moving downhill while the desirable movement is more "uphill".
> 
> (edited because I just realized this is probably a bitch and I had to change the pronouns.


No you were corect the first time, its a male, his name is Wedge and is/was owned by Sue from Kit-Sue Poodles. The other brindle posted is Sawyer, the grandson of Wedge who was owned by Leslie of Frenchies Poodles. Sawyer just went back to live with Sue because Wedge passed away. I believe Wedge is one of the main sutds to pass on his silver brindle. Many, if not all brindle go back to Wedge.

Wedge pedigree
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=329489

Sawyers pedigree
http://www.poodlepedigree.com/pedigree.asp?ID=363798

Anyhoo...


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## Cdnjennga

cbrand said:


> Here is a good example of what I'm talking about re: Partis. Now this may just be a poor picture so we will give her the benefit of the doubt. However, in this picture she clearly looks high in the rear and almost like she is long an roachy over the loin.
> 
> Also, her movement in not balanced. Her diagonal legs should be even in their movement. In this picture, her back left leg is higher off the ground than his right front leg. She looks like he is moving downhill while the desirable movement is more "uphill".


That's a great explanation CBrand! I can totally see what you mean by the downhill versus uphill thing.


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## Harley_chik

I think what's under the color plays a big role. Like Cbrand said, being multi-colored can make faults more obvious. But a well bred (and well groomed) parti puts most others to shame. I used to think Partis weren't so hot. Most I had seen were poorly bred dogs. After joining this forum, I've seen a lot of nice partis and been directed toward some kennels that are breeding for the total package. I think silver brindles are gorgeous, but the black dogs w/ brown stripes look more dirty than anything else. I've yet to see very many nice phantoms. I have a Rottie and most phantom Poodles don't compare to the proper Rottie colors. In Rotties, being "straw colored" is a fault, they are supposed to be rich tan/rust/mohagany. Most phantom poodles have dull washed out markings. I do give Poodle people a lot of credit for calling them "phantom" though. It bugs me to no end when dogs with those marking are called "dobie colored" (**** Tzus).

I think the patterned poodles (as well as some of the "rarer" solid colors) will only continue to improve, partis have already come so far. I think red Poodles are gorgeous, but it seems like theres some iffy things going on amongst many red breeders and I honestly have some issue with breeding for color anyway. In 5 or 10 years though, I think a lot these issues will have worked themselves out, thanks to the few responsible breeders out there. I've said before color isn't a big issue for me. I really just want a healthy, well tempered Poodle that fits the standard. However, responsible, black and white poodle breeder are so much easier to find.


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## cbrand

Cdnjennga said:


> That's a great explanation CBrand! I can totally see what you mean by the downhill versus uphill thing.



Thanks, but re-reading that and noting all the mistakes, it is clear that I should not sit down to the computer when I have been out for the evening. :hypnotized:

Sorry.....


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## BFF

I'm partial to blacks. They just have a special place in my heart. When I first saw parti colors, I cringed at the marketing gimmicks especially for the toy poodle. Now that I have seen more pictures and learned more about the parti colors, I like them. Some of the markings can be absolutely stunning.

I'm not a big fan of phantoms, although I have seen some silver ones that are very pretty. I just can't see how a breeder could predict a particular color pattern from a sire and dam. How will the coat change when they get the adult coat? I'm more of a traditionalist with the solid colors.

I would prefer that a breeder concentrate on health and structure of the poodle. One of the reasons I chose my breeder was because she only has browns and blacks.


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## akbritt

so what is an Abstract poodle???? has anyone heard about these?


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## cbrand

I think the term "Abstract" was made up by Parti and Doodle breeders. Previously, we just called them mis-marked, but that doesn't sound very good when you are trying to sell puppies. 

A mis-marked Poodle is a one that has white markings on its body that are not extensive enough to be considered Parti. Example: White on chest, head, or foot. Technically there are mis-marked white and light cream Poodles but it is very difficult to see the mis-marks on a light color dog.


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## Dogsinstyle

Carol is right. Abstract is an idiotic term born when the MCPC was in discussions to be approved by the UKC. I still call them mismarks.


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## Purple Poodle

Dogsinstyle said:


> Carol is right. Abstract is an idiotic term born when the MCPC was in discussions to be approved by the UKC. I still call them mismarks.


But its it still "mismarked" even though poodles of multi colors can now be registered and shown?


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## cbrand

You could always register any poodle of any color with AKC. However, our parent club, the Poodle Club of America, has said that any non-solid color is a disqualifying fault. This means that under our current US Poodle standard, a non-solid poodle would not be considered breeding quality.

To address your original question though..... there is a clear difference between a mis-mark (Abstract if you will) and a Parti. It would be similar to the difference in horses to a Pinto and a horse that only had a belly spot (if you have ever seen these). I can't imagine that a Parti breeder, breeding for full Partis, would be very happy to see a whole litter of mis-marks.

I think the term Abstract was coined to give these in between dogs (not Parti.... not solid) some sort of legitimacy so that buyers would think they were getting something other than a mis-marked dog.


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## Purple Poodle

Sure their is a difference but why call it "mismarked" when its not really? Going with your horse theory lots of horses have just one white foot, a small blaze/start/snip but they are not "mismarked" they have names for the little white markings. 

These markings do not show up often in Parti litters but I would think genetically they could be used to make the tuxedo pattern more...correct.

Anyway I think its just a way to turn a negative term and make it more positive and acceptable.

I think they are quite cute with a little chest spot or white toes.


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## cbrand

Purple Poodle said:


> Sure their is a difference but why call it "mismarked" when its not really? Going with your horse theory lots of horses have just one white foot, a small blaze/start/snip but they are not "mismarked" they have names for the little white markings.
> 
> These markings do not show up often in Parti litters but I would think genetically they could be used to make the tuxedo pattern more...correct.
> 
> Anyway I think its just a way to turn a negative term and make it more positive and acceptable.
> 
> I think they are quite cute with a little chest spot or white toes.


Well if you had a Quarter Horse where white is only allowed in certain areas then a white belly spot would be considered a mis-mark.

Unfortunately, if you are breeding to the Standard which calls for solid colored dogs, there is nothing cute or positive about ending up with white toes or a white spot on the chest. It is a big negative and a giant bummer to get mis-marked puppies.


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## Purple Poodle

cbrand said:


> Well if you had a Quarter Horse where white is only allowed in certain areas then a white belly spot would be considered a mis-mark.
> 
> Unfortunately, if you are breeding to the Standard which calls for solid colored dogs, there is nothing cute or positive about ending up with white toes or a white spot on the chest. It is a big negative and a giant bummer to get mis-marked puppies.


Well its depends on what Standard you are breeding too  plus if you have any "mismarks" there is a place for them so be shown and exhibited if you happen to have in or they can be altered and placed in companion homes.

Anyway I think we can agree to disagree on this one


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## Flake

I would love a parti personally, but we have very limited bloodlines an breeders here, and they are worth far more than a solid. I also question how many parti's listed in the paperare 100% poodle.


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## jak

Flake said:


> I would love a parti personally, but we have very limited bloodlines an breeders here, and they are worth far more than a solid. I also question how many parti's listed in the paperare 100% poodle.


There are no 'actual' breeders of parti poodles here in New Zealand
apart from a breeder up in Auckland
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pets-animals/Dogs/Dogs/auction-236756067.htm
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Home-living/Pets-animals/Dogs/Dogs/auction-236855914.htm

but you can only gather info from that page, and would have to email the breeder for more

The reason this probably is, as is mentioned in the listing above, people complained and got the parti poodles removed from the registration

But, there seem to be a lot of toy and mini partis, but as above, they probably can't be guaranteed to be full poodle, as they are just BYB


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## WonderPup

I just noticed this thread and had to laugh at the comment about parti's looking like cows. Not 20 minutes ago I told my husband that I had been to Saleen's breeder's website and noticed she had a new litter. She has a pretty party gilr availabe and my discription to hubby was 'but she's not the ulgy all white with colored head, she had big spots on her body like I'd have to have in tibbies" His reply was to look at me with a dumb look for a minute and say, "ummm ok so she has big spots like a cow?" rofl YES! (Please nobody be offended on my personal opinion of partis that only have an all white body, I don't mean to offend, everyone likes something different)

When I first saw a parti poodle I wasn't impressed to be honest, she was the all white body, colored head type though so that may be why. When I set out to find my first spoo I wouldn't even consider a breeder who even had partis, I was totaly against them. We have parti colors in tibetan spaniels, a lot of them, and as any color/pattern is acceptable it's all good. My biggest fault as a breeder is color though, I am very very visual and color/markings is definitly a consideration in the choices I make for pairings. However, color/markings isn't the only thing I consider and I don't truely breed for color, I breed for health and temperment, I try and find a dog with the qualities I want who is likely to produce those qualities in the colors I like. To me this means NO NO NO NO NO Parti's... ever! I wouldn't breed to a parti dog if it was the last dog on earth, I'd quit breeding. It's just sooo hard to get evenly marked parti's in tibbies, not to mention to blue eyes and occasional hearing issues that come along with the patterns in my breed. 

Weirdly though my distaste of parti colored dogs didn't cross over from tibbies to poodles. Sure at first I didn't like parti poo's but they quickly grew on me and when I finialy got around to purchasing my first spoo puppy (Saleen) I chose a puppy not only from a breeder who had parti colored dogs but one who was sired by a silver and white parti and had mostly parti colored littermates. I was causualy looking through available puppies to find breeders I might consider and talking to people at local shows. Hubby I think is the one who found Saleen and I was hooked b/c she was a silver which is what I reaaallly wanted in the first place. We were tentatively commited to a brown puppy from a forum memeber but hubby decided he didn't like all the colors brown could turn out to be and knew that if the brown faded he'd be bullied into getting a third poodle in silver. Anyway like I said I was browsing for lack of a better word and when I saw Saleen I put her on the list of maybes for breeder contact. When I went back 20 minutes later and saw her father, that was it. I jumped up from the computer, grabbed hubby for approval and contacted the breeder then and there at his insistance. Maybe not my best move as dogs go, but one I dont for a minute regret. Saleen is a mismark, she does have a tiny white spot on her chest and she has two white toes on the back end. As she's turned silver though the white markings are blending right in, just like the breeder said they probably would. It's very hard for me to fault small mismarks like that comming to poodles from a breed where anything goes color wise. Color has no bearing on the dog's conformation. Color doesn't make them walk so to speak. I doubt I'll go searching for a parti colored dog any time soon but if one fell in my lap and had heavy and reasonably even markings I certainly wouldn't turn it down.


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## flyingduster

I'm not a big fan of parti & phantoms either, but OMG I ADORE the look of this boy:
http://www.groomers.net/discus/messages/126/249045.html?1255784761
it's a grooming forum, but just look at him, he's stunning!!! heh


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## WonderPup

omg... I wonder where she got him? If I thought for a second I could find a dog with a nice dog who was a twin to him marking wise there would be no stopping me. I'm on that forum all the time, how did I miss these photos. Shame on me! LoL


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## Harley_chik

Wow he is pretty and the first clip looks really good on him. I have to say that last pic didn't do much for me, it just doesn't suit him. I think grooming and conformation play a big role in the appeal factor of parties and phantoms phantoms for me..


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## jak

Lol, he has sorta got a schnauzer thing going on

I don't really like the look of partis too much, but the white and black phantoms I have seen are just amazing
I like this one a lot


















I found her on

http://www.redpoodlepups.com/


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## flyingduster

I agree that the clip suits him to a T, and the whole poodle look doesn't suit him so well. I dont' care, he's gorgeous. lol! the pics were only posted the other day, so I only spotted them this morning myself. hehe

FD


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## Purple Poodle

WonderPup said:


> omg... I wonder where she got him? If I thought for a second I could find a dog with a nice dog who was a twin to him marking wise there would be no stopping me. I'm on that forum all the time, how did I miss these photos. Shame on me! LoL


He was bred by Frenchies Standard Poodles in Utah who's Phantom lines come from Sit-Sue's in Oklahoma.


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## g8dhorse7

I've had poodles of different colors and sizes. My favorite solid is a silver (though I've had blacks, whites, apricots as well). But, my DREAM poodle is a small standard phantom! I am absolutely smitten with the colors of Frenchies phantoms. I would not base my decision on buying a puppy on color alone...breeding, health, temperament and conformation are first and foremost. But......to have all that wrapped up in a phantom coat....WOW!


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## cbrand

Purple Poodle said:


> He was bred by Frenchies Standard Poodles in Utah who's Phantom lines come from Sit-Sue's in Oklahoma.


Note... it is Kit-Sue and she is one of the highest volume Poodle breeders in the US. She breeds very young dogs and in the past has done little to no testing on her breeding stock. Her program has also fed numerous breeding dogs to BYBs, Doodle breeders and other high volume Poodle breeders. hwell:


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