# Good girl is backsliding



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I've had the "Catch me" game, too, and would like to know how to "catch" the poodle!


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

I know that when your dog runs from you it's frustrating, but you have to realize that she won't come to you if coming to you means she's gets scolded. Have treats on you and play the 'Catch me' game in return, make sure she sees you (so you don't look like an idiot running around the park for no reason like I have) and then run in the opposite direction.

You'll see trainers at fly ball competitions doing this to get their dogs to run faster on the retrieve.

When she gets to you PRAISE PRAISE and treat! Coming to you should be much more fun and interesting than whatever she was doing before.

If I can call Vegas off of retrieving his ball (I come second to the ball) then you can do this!


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Yep - it is exactly what I would say! As FS says, coming to you has to be more wonderful and more fun than running away from you - and she will associate the scolding with being with you, not with the game that for her is now over and done with.

I've found the dog's best reward for coming is sometimes to be sent back off to play - if they are really having fun they don't want to hang around for treats or fuss, but to actually be encouraged to go and play again? Wow!


----------



## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

You should never scold a dog for coming to you, even if "coming" was you snagging her collar. She is not going to connect the punishment with the fact that she was playing the catch me game, she is going to associate the punishment with coming to you.

Good advice here. Also, she is entering the terrible teens. Expect lots of testing and naughtiness in general. Try not to get frustrated with her, she will sense your negativity. You will get your good girl back eventually, but in the meantime, rev up the training and keep it positive.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

I've been letting Leroy off leash almost every day. He LOVES the room to run and do crazy zoomies. His favorite game is - surprise! - for me to chase him while he runs around with a stick in his mouth. We play the chase game for about 30-45 minutes. While playing this game, I throw in me running the opposite direction every now and then. He'll also lose the stick and so I go and get a new one. He follows me in whatever I'm doing but I don't try to "nab" him. I also will sit down or squat to take a breather and have him come up to me, I pet him and send him off again. I tried to end the chase game early tonight, and he ran away. So I just went with it and we played some more. I was so out of breath I took a few seconds to breathe, and he came up to me breathing the same way lol. I petted and praised him and nonchalantly put the leash on him. I think it helps when "coming to mommy" doesn't equate to "all fun is over." You might want to go through the motions of leaving but let her keep playing. I'm not sure if it's because Leroy is a velcro poodle but he will run off a few ways, stop and wait for me. He is always watching to see what I do. I also play hide and seek with him to keep him on his toes.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm doing Susan Garrett's Recallers course right now, and I have to say there are some real paradigm shifts in thinking involved, and some great foundation exercises. One of the fundamentals is to work over and over at being able to touch or grab the dog's collar, for example. Her training methods also involve no verbal or physical corrections. In this situation, she would say, "Your dog isn't blowing you off or being a 'bad girl.' Your dog is showing you where the value is."

Cammie running from you in the dog park is giving you helpful information. It's telling you that the other dogs and running about hold more value than you at this point. Obviously, you want to be the source of highest value for her. Work on recalls and fun games in other environments. Recall, leash her up as if leaving, then stop and let her loose again, so coming back to you doesn't always mean the fun is over. Have an very special, A++ treat, her favorite food of all time (chicken breast? Steak?) and give it to her *only* when you leave and put her in the car--this builds value for leaving the park. She is a "teenager" in dog terms, so this might be a good time to institute a Nothing In Life Is Free program (info all over the web or get the book *Ruff Love*) for her, in which *you* control her access to reinforcement, aka All Good Things.

Apologies for the long-winded response, but recall problems are relationship problems, not quick-fixes usually, and it's good you're jumping on this one now. Don't end up like my neighbors, who got a darling little puffball of a Shih-Tzu which they played with in their frot yard regularly. Now the pup in eight months old and runs away any time it can. They boys will and try to catch it, usually having to sneak up and grab it when it's distracted, but the dog is only going to get harder and harder to catch if they don't do some foundation work. And the puppy might not be lucky long enough for that to happen. 

--Q


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks to all of you for your replies. Special thanks to Quossom who gave me a lot to think about. I do think it is a paradigm shift. I like this positive stuff--the "dog is giving you information" idea, etc. Just trying to put it into practice and build a good relationship with my girl! And funny that you should mention NILIF. Just last night, I was thinking that would be a good idea and I made her sit before she got her supper! Normally I just give it to her, but I'm thinking that should change. We're doing a lot of recalls at the park. We always did, but now each treat is accompanied by me petting her head, neck and back. This morning, I tried taking the leash off, and she came for a couple of recalls. But then she did not want to sit while I touched her neck area, so the leash went back on. She played with other dogs while dragging the leash behind her. We did a lot more recalls and she did pretty well. Both of the dog parks that I go to are unfenced, so no room for error as we get near to the edge of the park.


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Quossum said:


> Her training methods also involve no verbal or physical corrections. In this situation, she would say, "Your dog isn't blowing you off or being a 'bad girl.' Your dog is showing you where the value is."
> --Q


I LOVE this! What a great way to express it! 

At 8 months, the dog is entering her terrible teenage period ... mine hit his at 9 months and it was as if we'd never done any training. Grit your teeth and you'll get through it :smile:.

Dogs are FANTASTIC at discerning cause and effect. If leash or recall means "the fun ends", the dog is going to make that connection quickly. To avoid it, practice recalls and putting the leash on and off at a ration of a dozen to one, where a dozen times, the dog gets sent back to play and one time it's time to go home.

I'm really lucky that we have public footpaths that go for miles, occasionally crossing a road. That means we get lots of practice at recall, leash on, cross the road, then leash off and the walk continues.

Even now, I make sure I practice recalls ten or twenty times on each walk. 

And remember that training happens every time you interact with your dog. Working with you should be the most fun, most rewarding, most exciting thing the dog does in the day!


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> At 8 months, the dog is entering her terrible teenage period ... mine hit his at 9 months and it was as if we'd never done any training. Grit your teeth and you'll get through it :smile:.


JE-UK -- Thanks for this heads-up! I got Sophie and Bob (my other poodles) when they were well into adulthood. So this is my first experience with a puppy or a "terrible" teenager. Quite a learning experience! Just when I thought she was doing so well... Glad to hear that I'm not the only one to see little Miss Perfection become filled with her own opinions about where we are going and what we are doing...


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have a great trainer. One thing she had us do in puppy class it grab our dog by the collar and treat so he associates with something positive. One thing I like to do is call the dog using an angry voice and when they come (usually reluctantly) praise and treat him with very high value treats. No matter what coming is always positive. Sometimes the tone of your voice will show you are annoyed and the dog has to know that only good things come from you. This teenage period is tough - perservere and it will be over before you know it.


----------



## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> One thing I like to do is call the dog using an angry voice and when they come (usually reluctantly) praise and treat him with very high value treats. No matter what coming is always positive. Sometimes the tone of your voice will show you are annoyed and the dog has to know that only good things come from you.


I've practiced this with both dogs! Sometimes it's really difficult to control your frustration, and you're going to call your dog and you may not sound happy. My dogs know that no matter how I sound when I call them, it doesn't ever mean anything bad is going to happen. I've been working up to sound really scary 'GET OVER HERE! COME NOW!' and giving them mega treats and praise when they come.

Some people might think 'why? why even sound mean or angry?' Well, because sometimes I'm going to be! Sounding mean/scary doesn't mean my dogs are going to be in trouble, it's just preparing them for whatever could happen, and could maybe even save their lives.


----------



## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

*Cammie update*

My sweet girl seems to be back to happy and reasonably obedient behavior at the dog park. After several days of keeping the leash on her while she plays, we are now back to normal off-leash play, pretty good recall and we are both having fun. I do lots of recalls with treats (as I did in the past), but now I pet her on her neck each time. Most of the time, I let her go back to play some more, but when it is time to go home, I can easily get the leash on her. No more "catch me if you can" games! She just loves bounding across the park and then checking back with me, then bounding off again. She's a very happy girl with a lovely temperament. I feel very fortunate!

Still working on getting her to come when she is in the midst of doing something else. Her idea: Finish what she's doing, then come reasonably promptly thereafter. My idea: Come immediately when I call. It is hard to get her to change direction in mid-stream. But the park I go to is not officially a dog park. So occasionally there is a jogger or dogless person wandering through the park. Not all of these people want to be approached by my darling standard poodle. But she doesn't understand that. We're working on it!

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions.


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

Glad to hear she's back to her old self! The training is a never-ending process. I had Leroy off leash at a park. It was night and no one was there, but last night a man on a motorcycle (with a dog barking in a little basket), and another man on his bicycle with a leashed dog came by. I was not expecting this. Of course Leroy got extremely excited and rushed over, pestering the bicyclist and dog, and as they rode away, he started to chase after them! No amount of saying "no" or "come" was making Leroy listen. I gave up and started walking away saying "bye!" really loud. As soon as he realized my back was turned, he raced back towards me. He seems to know what "bye" means as well. Although I use the off leash time to bolster Leroy's confidence to explore, his greatest fear is still me leaving him so I (as much as I hate to) use this as a tool.


----------



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Thanks, Tokipoke;

I use "bye" and walking away and I wish it worked more reliably. If someone comes to the gate while Poodle(s) are in the yard, they're usually more interested in the gate. 

If they're due to be fed and hungry, it works better. I try to work with Poodles at those times.


----------



## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Hey peppersb, glad to hear that things have gone back in a favorable direction with Cammie. 

I'm late to this party, and you've already received a lot of great advice. That being said, I'd like to add the following thoughts; primarily aimed at folks who might be reading this thread in the future.

First, you've likely imprinted strongly on Cammie, so as a young pup her natural inclination was to come to you quickly when called (especially if you reinforced this behavior). Fast forward to the present, where she's gained more confidence and independence, and she suddenly stops listening. It's really easy to beat yourself up under these circumstances. It can feel like failure, or embarrassment (she knows this command, what's wrong with her or me), and you may take it personally. That leads to frustration, and the dog will definitely sense it. 

Second, the environment you were describing is at the extreme end of the spectrum in terms of distractions: off leash; open dog park; other dogs, people, etc.; sticks, leaves and cool smells. That's a whole lot of stuff competing for Cammie's attention. If you want to proof a dog's recall, that would be the equivalent of an Olympic event.

As an aside, it's a good idea to be careful about disciplining a dog (verbally or otherwise) so long after the initial infraction occurred. If too much time passes after the bad behavior has occurred, and then the dog gets corrected, they really think the correction is coming out of left field. This can lead to trust being broken down if done repeatedly. Some poodles are harder than others, but in generally they are very sensitive and want to please the owner/handler. If they perceive that a correction was unwarranted, it will hurt trust, and work against any effort for recall. As a general rule, corrections/discipline, if used, are about surprise and not punishment. They need to occur at the instant the undesired thing is taking place to be effective.

So, we strive to not feel frustrated (easier said than done, especially if you feel panicked about your dog taking off on you), and to not damage trust.

It sounds like to me that you experienced a young pup entering that phase where she loses her mind and forgets stuff (they all do that, as if aliens came down and snatched your dog and left a clever forgery behind), she's gaining confidence/independence, and was working under extreme distraction. This is exciting, because now you have this challenge to work on, and when you're done, the dog's recall will be rock solid. This thread contains lots of great suggestions that can be utilized in that effort.

Whenever I encounter something that's "broken", we go back to basics, starting with reducing the degree of distraction. Under normal circumstances, it sounded like Cammie would come when called, sit and wait to be leashed up. If it were me, I'd find the environment where I can reliably repeat this (such as in your backyard), and reinforce it strongly with a high value reward. Next, begin to incrementally introduce distractions; don't change the location, bring the distractions in. Perhaps a friend has a dog, and they can be in the environment. Let the dogs play, and call Cammie to you periodically; your friend may need to hold their dog in order to disengage the play (an alternative to a friend and their dog could be another person with Cammie's favorite toy). Remember, in training, as you increase the complexity of the exercise, decrease the pass/fail criteria. For this scenario, reward her simply for coming to you; don't worry about the sit or leash. Gradually add those elements to the criteria as the recall improves. When you increase the complexity, only add one new thing at a time; in baseball parlance, don't swing for the fences. Once you get the recall, sit and leash working, start adding in more distractions. Next, move to a new environment. Reduce the pass/fail criteria and start the process over. Keep everything positive, and end each session with success. If you really want to solidify this, after each session put Cammie in her crate/kennel for 20-30 minutes; you'll be amazed at how much dogs absorb when training them in this manner. Don't do a bunch of different stuff during these sessions. Whatever you end on before crating the dog is what they're going to cogitate on.

One final suggestion about play in general. With all of our dogs, I control the play. As they are playing, I periodically put them in a down, make them wait a little bit, then release them so they can go back to playing; I don't go overboard with this, just a few times during a play session. This has gone a long way with my crew when it comes to shutting things down and packing it in for the day.

I hope this didn't come across as critical. It wasn't my intent. Just wanted to share some thoughts that have yielded good results for us.

Best of luck with Cammie.

Greg


----------



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Sarpoodle...thanks for that very detailed, useful post. You explained what's worked for you and why.

Thanks again! :act-up:


----------



## tokipoke (Sep 3, 2011)

sarpoodle, your post is very informative for future readers. If you have a puppy, chances are you will go through what peppersb is going through with Cammie. I've never thought about telling my dog a command while he is playing. I usually just think "okay, play time" and let him go at it. He can play and run to his heart's desire. One thing I never do though at the dog park is to call Leroy over, leash him, and then walk out of the park. I just quietly walk towards the exit and he will stop whatever he is doing and follow me. I ask him to sit, leash him, walk out into the enclosed exit, ask him to sit again, and then exit. We walk the normal park and then head home. Should I be ending the dog park session in a different manner? 

I will treat him every now and then for coming when called after I let him out in the backyard to potty.


----------



## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

Hey tokipoke, you have a very attentive boy to be able to leave an area in that manner and have him follow you. It's clear you've done great work with him, and understand how to pull your dog as opposed to push him to do things; something I have to constantly remind myself to do. That fits in well with the whole concept of running away from your dog, as opposed to chasing him, if the recall isn't working on the first try. 

Personally, I like the idea of throwing a recall in there for no other reason than to constantly reinforce it. It's the kind of thing that could save a dog's life in an emergency situation. That being said, you obviously have an amazing relationship with your dog, and it's probably something the other folks in your dog park envy.

Now, truth in advertising, my youngest girl Saydee is currently entering that phase peppersb started this thread out on. Her innate recall was really good, and because I'm with her the entire day, I've imprinted heavily on her. I started working on Saydee's recall from the very first day. Anytime she just walked over to me, I praised her and used the command "come" to build up the association (as opposed to issuing the command first, just use the command word afterwards whenever the dog did something like sit, come, etc.). I carried treats all the time, and rewarded her when she came to me after being called. Now she's reached a point where she's almost bored with me it seems like at times, lol, and she will sometimes ignore me when called because she is distracted by ground scents. This is amplified when working with the SAR group because we are frequently out in heavily wooded areas.

I use all of the usual tricks to break this down, including running away and screaming my head off as I go. Sometimes when this happens, if we've been playing a two-way game with her frisbees, I'll hit the ground, curl up, and look submissive, so she'll come over to investigate; or get down on all fours and strike that pose that dogs do when they invite another do to play. Poodles are too smart for their own good, so you always have to be creative and think up new tactics. The worst thing you can do with any dog, but especially poodles, is chase after them. They own that game, and it's hardwired into their DNA. You start chasing a poodle, and you'll be running for a very, very long time.

One of my friends from the SAR group works with me to play what we call the "recall game". Since Saydee's big distraction is the woods, we each get a pocket full of treats, take her out into the woods and turn her loose off leash. My friend and I then start walking through the woods, stepping over fallen trees and stuff, keeping about 40-50 feet between us. As we walk, we each take turns calling Saydee to us. When she comes we treat her, and then let her go on her merry little way; then the other persons calls her in a similar fashion, rinse and repeat. Saydee loves it because it contains so many fun elements: running through the woods at high speed, jumping over and navigating obstacles, and of course getting treats. She figures out the game fairly fast, and even starts running to the next person before being called. It's a fun little exercise.

Greg


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

sarpoodle said:


> Personally, I like the idea of throwing a recall in there for no other reason than to constantly reinforce it.


I do that too. It's funny how easy it is to forget to practice something when the dog knows it. There are some really good recall games that I stole off Youtube, like this one: 








sarpoodle said:


> The worst thing you can do with any dog, but especially poodles, is chase after them. They own that game, and it's hardwired into their DNA. You start chasing a poodle, and you'll be running for a very, very long time.


So, so, so, SO true. Favourite poodle game EVER.


----------



## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> There are some really good recall games that I stole off Youtube, like this one:


That's a great little video. Her dogs definitely have some advanced obedience on them, especially when she starts giving them directionals at the end. I'll have to think about ways to adapt some of that to use with Saydee. At this point, I don't want to throw treats on the ground because I'm trying to discourage her from doing that while we train outdoors; however, this might work well indoors, if for no other reason than to teach the game to her initially.

Thanks for sharing that.

Greg


----------



## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

She is a great trainer; has some fantastic videos of clicker training donkeys & ponies. 

Rather than a treat, would Saydee play these games with toys?


----------



## sarpoodle (Dec 26, 2011)

JE-UK said:


> Rather than a treat, would Saydee play these games with toys?


I haven't been totally successful using a toy as a reward for training with her just yet (other than when we do drive play and tug); food still tends to be a better reward. Hopefully this will improve as she gets older, and I can find that one toy she'll move Heaven and earth for.

We tried doing a few of those games indoors yesterday, and it had the exact effect I feared. After just a few iterations, she began to concentrate on the floor to find more food. At this point, the food rewards really need to always come from my hand (exception being when doing agility to bait an obstacle that is new or still very challenging).

Greg


----------

