# Should I be worried?



## Hula (Jun 1, 2013)

We took Hula to a puppy socialisation party at a local vets office and she ...was nasty? She was there with a weinmariner, roti/shepard mix and a pointer all a couple weeks older than her and to be fair were very rambunctious. At first she just tried to get away from them but the room was small and soon the other dogs were racing around and barrelling her over. Ive never heard her growl except for when she plays, but this was mean growl. When they got to close shes growl and go to nip, ad then it elevated to where no other dogs could drink while she was drinking and worst was when other dogs would try to play tug of war shed growl and finally when we went to take the toy away she stiffened and growled at us!
By the end of it she was attempting to play. Was barking and using her paws but if she went after a dog and the other dog tried to play back she would snap. We were shocked. So..is this foreshadowing of whats to come? Should I take her back?...Is this what socialization is all about, teaching her to be more dog like or is it traumatizing her?...I certainly didnt like what I saw but towards the end it was better. Ive never been nervous handling a dog before but her complete switch freaked me out.I dont like the attitude change like that.


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

She probably was overwhelmed by the new dogs and trying to tell the dogs to give her her space. and being in a small room probably doesn't help much either. next time you should slowly introduce her. Well that's my two cents!


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## Qarza (Feb 23, 2013)

I agree, she needs space. All dogs are different and it is up to you to learn your dog's personality as much as for her to learn your rules. Try a socialising with just one dog and see if it is different. Do not give up on your dog after just one incident.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

I wouldn't attempt to socialize my puppy in a vet's office. It is full of sick dogs.

She has every right to snap at them since they crowded her and she needed protection. Since she didn't get it from you, she took matters into her own hand by growling and snapping. She is still a puppy who needs to feel that she is protected. In that kind of situation, I would pick her up. Vet's office is full of questionable dogs, I wouldn't trust that environment to socialize my puppy. A daycare would be a good thing to socialize your puppy since a daycare would screen puppies and have health requirements before a puppy can be accepted into the population. Another way to socialize your dog is to have a puppy warming party to welcome your puppy into your circle of friends and families and encourage them to bring their dog. The important thing about socializing your dog is to make sure that you are in charge of the environment, and at any time when you feel the environment become unpredictable lift her up. This will give her confidence that you will protect her. She will grew up fast and that confidence need to be planted early on, otherwise you'll find her barking at every dog during a walk because her first experience with dogs are not that pleasant. I hope this make sense.

I'm talking from personal experience. I learnt the hard way that puppies can get overwhelmed sometime and my failing in reading their need of me will caused them to be aggressive toward other dogs and/or people. 

Hope this help.


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## Hula (Jun 1, 2013)

Oh no no not giving up/. What I meant by "should I take her back" was in regards to the puppy social party. With older dogs one one one she has been perfect. A little timid but totally fine. How important is it to take puppy to these puppy socialization things...her temperament is not like the more rough and tumble pups out there.


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## Joelly (May 8, 2012)

Yes, socialize her but not in the vet office, find a different venue or create one. We have Zoom Room here in Los Angeles which has a puppy socialization classes. Please go to something like this. The point of puppy socialization is to increase her confidence. So places where strange dogs are around is not the best because your puppy will pick up bad behavior (or worse, disease) from the strange dogs who may not even trained.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am more than a bit leary of the idea of socialising pups with other pups -partly because mine were so tiny and easily overwhelmed by every other puppy in the room. I do think socialising is a balancing act for any puppy - the aim is not simply to have lots of experiences, but to have lots of happy experiences. I absolutely agree with other posters that she needs to know that you will protect her - I taught my two that the space between my feet was there Safe Place - that left me with both hands free to fend off other dogs or people, and avoided triggering the prey response that many dogs seem to have when they see an animal lifted up.

I found puppy play with one or two other pups well matched for weight and play style was bliss for mine, but that they learned a lot more from sensible adults. We also went to very well run puppy classes where free play was closely controlled, and the pups learned to relax around other people and dogs (and that training was a wonderful thing, involving a table covered with bowls of sausage and chicken and cheese and kongs and chews, and boxes of toys, and comfy beds ... I think my dogs' idea of heaven is probably based on that puppy class!).


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Find a nice, maybe even neutral (one that will ignore her) dog to socialize with. That sort of scary environment can cause her to become dog reactive or even dog aggressive. She needs to know that you will defend her. If she ever starts looking overwhelmed, take her out of the situation before it escalates to the point where she is growling and snapping. She was terrified. 

I'm frankly a little disappointed that the folks running the puppy group didn't try to help her. I understand a new puppy owner not knowing what was happening, but if they're going to set up a social time, they need to know what to do to keep it from getting out of hand. 

Slowly introduce her to nice, gentle dogs and puppies. With some work, she should be ok.

Maybe I should set up a puppy play group, I have some awesome neutral adult dogs that are great nannies. hmmmm


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I think that is a brilliant idea, BK - there are so many owners of new puppies desperately searching for well socialised adult dogs that will provide kind guidance and role modelling. Most dog trainers I know have dogs that are so fed up with being bounced by pups they warn them off at sight, so can'y provide this essential part of a pup's education! Honestly, I would have happily paid to walk mine with your dogs when they were at that stage - there are so many lessons they learn from other dogs, and it is so important to ensure that the lessons are the right ones!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

*Hula*, I hope you won't be offended by me saying I think you should be worried about your _vet_, not your puppy! I would question his understanding of canine behavior if hosting such a wild gathering of pups is something he sanctions. It's good you posted your concerns, I well understand them! You got great advice from the others. When Chagall was a pup he had the chance to socialize and learn from some friends' very stable, tolerant, adult dogs. He also had supervised play with one or two other same-sized pups at a time outdoors on our property. I was relieved to read your clarification that you don't wish to return your pup, but were questioning returning to that raucous play group. _Don't! _Hope you find a suitable place to help Hula comfortably interact with other dogs. Rest assured your pup isn't "nasty," the situation was.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

When I socialize a puppy, I control the scenarios. I control which dogs my puppy is going to be exposed to. They must not be over whelming, rambunctious or dangerous in any way. As with any and all exposures to novel environments, people, animals, objects, activities and so forth, these encounters must never cause the puppy fearfulness or nervousness. They must be associated with a pleasurable time. And actively, not passively. In other words, I pair these novel things with something additional that the dog loves; ie: tasty treats. Your puppy must be protected from associating a rotten time with other dogs or anything else. So, from now on, my advice would be to make a game plan, set up with purpose situations where the dog will be socialized in all kinds of ways, but don't let him become over-whelmed, as in too much all at once or frightened. He was growling, not out of nastiness, but out of fear...defensiveness.

I agree that your vet is very uninformed about dog behavior. Good luck. I think you can turn things around with careful, gentle, gradual exposures, paired with yet more good things. (yummy treats, praise etc) You might find a neighbor's young or older dog that is calm, gentle and very stable. You'll have to do your research to make sure first. Or a daycare where they know the dogs well. And just start out with one other dog, then add a couple more later. Or a puppy socialization class with a highly recommended trainer that uses good sense and a controlled environment. Good luck.


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## Hula (Jun 1, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I agree. I will not take her back there. I thought it was a great idea at first but was soon reluctant as I saw it was indoors and a very small room. Needless to say Hula as a poodle plays much different than a rotti mix. She is totally fine with calmer older dogs and Im sure she'd be fine with a puppy that was calmer too. ( however we haven't found one yet) Unfortunately we live rather rural and I had to drive 30/km to go to this puppy function so there is not alot of choice we have. Thanks all for your opinions. I've tried putting my hand in her food bowl and water dish and taking it away since we have been home and there is absolutely no issue at all. So I just put her in a bad situation and didnt protect her...lesson learned, hopefully not too late. I must say I have noticed a difference between a poodle and other dog breeds.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend taking the food dish away, but rather, putting yummier things in as she eats. When she learns positively that you're not a threat, but in fact the bringer of better food than she's already eating, then you can pick up the bowl and add a piece of something tasty and put it right back down. But I wouldn't start out by taking the food away at all. You can even put in a small amount of her meal and walk across the room. Just as she finishes, you can walk to the bowl and add something extra good and some more of her regular food. Repeat a couple times. This way she will be looking forward to your coming close to her food and putting your hand near the bowl. I'd really get P.O'd. if someone took my dinner plate away. lol....that is...until I found out they were putting a Porterhouse steak on it. :act-up:


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## Hula (Jun 1, 2013)

That's a good idea too, thanks! The putting my hand in her dish and taking it away ( and giving it right back) was just for my own piece if mind that it was a one time thing that she growled when I went to take away her chew toy yesterday at the puppy class. I just had to see for myself.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Hula said:


> That's a good idea too, thanks! The putting my hand in her dish and taking it away ( and giving it right back) was just for my own piece if mind that it was a one time thing that she growled when I went to take away her chew toy yesterday at the puppy class. I just had to see for myself.


While she's young, when you take anything away from her, trade her at the same time for something better. So, if you have to take her chew toy away, show her something she'll like better and ask for the toy first. "give" and then give her the treat. Then give her the toy back again. Make a game out of it and use different objects. That way, if she ever gets hold of something dangerous that you must take, she'll learn "give" to your hand, and you can teach "drop it." She won't be reluctant to give up her things if it has been well installed that it's a win/win situation for her. 

I've worked with a lot of dogs with resource guarding issues, some quite severe and these are some of the techniques I've used. Some pups will never grow up to have a problem, just naturally. Like my Lab. I never did anything with her to prepare. But you really never know so it's a good idea to practice some of this when they're puppies to increase the odds in your favor. A one time growl shows that she is a good candidate for some pro-active preventative conditioning. The growl is a good thing that she did...but it told you she was bothered. All these little lessons can be made into a game. It makes it all the more effective. Retrieving is a game and it teaches the dog to give you things. Trade a ball for a piece of steak or chicken and give the ball right back again. Just as the ball is about to drop from her mouth to your hand, inject a cue, "give." Stuff like that.


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