# Docked tail?



## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

Opinions on docked vs undocked? My breeder asked if I had a preference but I’m 50/50. I’ve only seen in person poodles with docked tails. how long are the tails? I know too short of a dock and it’ll be hard to get a decent Pom. What are some thoughts on it look wise do longer tails automatically equal better easier poms? is it hard to keep the hair on the tail detangled?


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Since poodles are usually not bred with a long tail, breeders have not done any selection in that area, so it’s always a surprise what the tail is going to look like and how the dog will carry it.

I have Merlin, docked and when I got Beckie, docking had become illegal in my province so Beckie was undocked. At first I found it really strange, but now I really prefer it over a docked tail ! I find it makes the dog more balanced.

I would want a natural tail anytime over a docked one now. Mind you Beckie’s tail is really nice and she has a nice carriage as well.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I know this is the trend now, but I still love a docked tail. My toy poodle was docked really short way back then, but Zeke’s is longer where it curves up over the back and I do prefer that. Love to see it standing up like a flag. 


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## Nahama (Aug 4, 2019)

Willow's tail is docked, but our new puppy Kiki's undocked tail curls over her back, like our Maltese dog's tail. It's very cute and looks great.


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## Michigan Gal (Jun 4, 2019)

I don't believe in cosmetic changes. Certain hunting breeds have their tails docked to about 50% because the tails will break in the mountains (or so legend has it) Otherwise, why cut a tail?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I love the expressiveness of an undocked tail. Wish Peggy's wasn't.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'm in agreement with the majority--I prefer that poodle tails were left natural. I think docking is cruel and totally unnecessary.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Tails have been undocked in the UK for some years now. I find dogs look better balanced with a full tail, and use it more expressively, especially in dog to dog communication.


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## Muggles (Mar 14, 2015)

Tail docking has also been banned in Australia for a long time. I vastly prefer natural tails, docked tails look very unbalanced to me and I see it as a pointless and cruel practice.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I agree, it’s an ethical decision for a companion animal, not cosmetic.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I prefer a long show dock. The pups are docked at a couple days old. I've assisted at dockings when I worked for breeders years ago and they barely felt anything, most never even had a spot of blood and were back nursing with their dams minutes after. Also, unless your breeder is either docking or leaving natural tails on the entire litter, I don't know how they can ask you for a preference. As noted, docking is done at a couple days and there is no way a breeder should be able to know which puppy you are getting until they do temperament testing and conformation evaluations, which occur long after 2 days of age......


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I like a docked tail. It stands up straight and is very expressive. I don't know why people think it's not expressive. I found a docked tail to be intensely expressive because of the speed at which it wags. Straight up adorable. I even wrote a poem about my Doberman's tail. And the poodles have a rather long dock. I do not find it to be cruel if it is banded when they're 2 or 3 days old because the part of their nervous system is not complete until 14-21 days...the pain receptors that have to do with the spinal cord. I don't know that I'd go for surgical docking...probably more healing involved after. But banding is a simple procedure if done within the first few days as far as I've understood from my breeders. (Doberman and poodles) It is not going to hurt your puppy. I do not believe that there's pain from what I've been told by several breeders of traditionally docked breeds. I think my poodles look very balanced, happy, "expressive" and beautiful. And yep, if you like a pom pom....











That Dober Tail

A mile a minute it would go,
That Dober stub of a tail,
It didn’t sway in easy flow,
But things stayed on the table.

How expressive, that Dober tail,
Inside his mind I’d know,
Humor abounded without fail,
Back and forth, that Dober tail,
Wish he didn’t go.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> *I do not believe that there's pain from what I've been told by several breeders of traditionally docked breeds. *I .


They lie or are in denial. Watch some YouTube videos on banding tails (and cutting tails for those who don't think it's cruel).


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I prefer docking. My Giant Schnauzer is both docked & cropped, as were my Dobermans. I like my Standard Poodle with his long cropped tail. I have no trouble finding him in high brush or weeds. I don't know about poodles but in Dobermans I have seen one natural tail broken in the field, saw another caught in the fence when it sliced the tail. I like the docked tail & do not see how anyone thinks they aren't expressive. My guy talks with his tail all the time.


I have held puppies during docking. Most of them object to the position they are being held in more than the docking. Science tells us when their nerves develop & while I don't put a lot of stock into many of the things science says, this is one thing I do. Why? Because I have held puppies during docking, have assisted in the docking. Banding isn't a bad method. I prefer to just remove the tail. part being docked. Depending on the breed or the length of dock, it can require a stitch or two, sometimes not at all. I've seen whole litters done with only a tiny bit of blood. And again the puppies don't cry or complain (which is why I believe science when it says their nerves haven't developed that way yet). A couple of the vets & I experimented with positions we held the puppies in while they were being docked. A whole litter of Rotties where in only two pups fussed (& they were NOT crying out in excruciating pain). They wanted to nurse & dang it, they wanted it NOW! since we woke them up. The rest of the litter was docked, cauterized, stitched, ointment applied & put with their mother & went straight to nursing. Whole litter of Dobermans with pups who even stretched in my hands like puppies do when they first wake up while being docked (again this is not a response from pain).


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

They cry out when they are banded or docked. That is a fact. I'm not going to argue further because I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

The one thing I _can_ agree with you on is that I like the look of a long dock. Both of my poodles have "perfect" long docks and nice tail sets, and they carry them beautifully. 

But, if I ever were to become a breeder, tails would be left natural.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Likewise. Agree to disagree. It's a matter of different experiences. Had I experienced puppies crying out in pain I would question the science but that's not what I saw. I always held the puppies in position, soothing them til they fell back to sleep always had Mom on standby for nursing afterward. Had very few instances of what you describe. Same with dewclaw removal. 

I didnt think I'd like the long docked tails but when Mr. Layne's tail is up hes easy to find.

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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

There are a number of videos on Youtube of puppies being docked. The ones I watched showed no reaction from the puppies other than objections to being held. They did not cry out, they did not move in protest. When they were put down they immediately went back to what they were doing before. It's not pleasant to watch a scissors cutting off a pup's tail, but to all appearances the pups did not notice.

These are very young puppies. If the docking is done later than a couple of days old the puppies will notice and will feel pain and will protest.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

reraven123 said:


> There are a number of videos on Youtube of puppies being docked. The ones I watched showed no reaction from the puppies other than objections to being held. They did not cry out, they did not move in protest. When they were put down they immediately went back to what they were doing before. It's not pleasant to watch a scissors cutting off a pup's tail, but to all appearances the pups did not notice.
> 
> 
> 
> These are very young puppies. If the docking is done later than a couple of days old the puppies will notice and will feel pain and will protest.




I have been present for a few litters who had their tails docked. My observation is the same. The puppies whined at being picked up, but not a larger reaction to the docking. When put down they stopped whining. I fostered a poodle who had puppies, and there was no reaction from them either. It was done before they reached 72 hours old and it was fine. The vet that came out said right around that time is the optimal point at which to do it. 


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

I've watched my cocker spaniel pups get their tails docked on their 3rd day of life. A topical anesthetic was put on these and the dewclaws. Not so much as a peep in protest. The vet said the trick is to cut between the tail joints cartilage, no later than 5 days of age. No pain = no worry or guilt.

Some states allow docking a few days more, but beyond this, you're getting into pain territory. I think all states have a very short time limit after the date of birth when docking can be done legally by a vet. Personally I think the sooner the better, while the window of opportunity is wide open. 

On tail docking a poodle, 1/4 to 1/3 at the tip should be removed, depending on the size and length. I read elsewhere that taking off 1/2 to 1/3 is appropriate. No,not true. One half is too much.

​
My 2nd poodle, Sachii, has an undocked tail. I thought it was a long tail dock when I got him and was mildly disappointed when I found out b/c doing a pom is impossible. 

While undocked poodles are still cute, there is a sheer elegance of a well groomed poodle in a good clip with a tail dock and pom. Here is one of my favorite photos of a Champion toy from Smash Poodles:

​


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

Eclipse said:


> I prefer a long show dock. The pups are docked at a couple days old. I've assisted at dockings when I worked for breeders years ago and they barely felt anything, most never even had a spot of blood and were back nursing with their dams minutes after. Also, unless your breeder is either docking or leaving natural tails on the entire litter, I don't know how they can ask you for a preference. As noted, docking is done at a couple days and there is no way a breeder should be able to know which puppy you are getting until they do temperament testing and conformation evaluations, which occur long after 2 days of age......


 the litter is due in a few weeks and mom is known for having small litters only 
1-3 puppies. I’m first pick of the litter the other person waiting doesn’t mind either way. I’ll know which is my puppy in the first 2 or 3 weeks.


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

Vita said:


> I've watched my cocker spaniel pups get their tails docked on their 3rd day of life. A topical anesthetic was put on these and the dewclaws. Not so much as a peep in protest. The vet said the trick is to cut between the tail joints cartilage, no later than 5 days of age. No pain = no worry or guilt.
> 
> Some states allow docking a few days more, but beyond this, you're getting into pain territory. I think all states have a very short time limit after the date of birth when docking can be done legally by a vet. Personally I think the sooner the better, while the window of opportunity is wide open.
> 
> ...


 that dog is absolutely gorgeous. I decided to go with a longer dock and I let her know the desired length thanks for the measurements the 1/3 should be perfect. I’m so excited I’m hoping for a boy I’ve already started ordering things for the pup. Just a few more weeks until he’s born ?


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'd be more cautious or concerned about the long term possible side effects of docking, although after have two docked breeds have not seen this demonstrated by my dogs or any of the dogs I showed with or any other dogs that are docked...didn't hear anyone mention problems but maybe the propensity is there or it's not common. (not sure). As far as pain during the actual procedure...doesn't appear to be possible if they're done during the first few days before 14 days. 

These are just a few snippets from this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6028921/ If you're at all on the fence, I'd recommend reading this whole study carefully and then decide. 



> Comparison and Flawed Extrapolation
> Regarding the conscious perception of pain by neurologically mature young of common livestock species and full-term human infants, it should now be apparent, first, that the apparatus for perceiving pain is functionally in place, but “dormant” or inhibited, for some weeks prior to birth, and second, that this apparatus simply needs to be “switched on” by mechanisms related to birth for these young to be able to subsequently experience injury-induced pain within minutes or hours. This is also true of human infants born no more than about 8–10 weeks prematurely because, by then, their whole pain perception apparatus is in place, albeit still maturing and “dormant”, and then it is also “switched on” by mechanisms related to their premature birth [69,78]. The situation is different in puppies during at least the first 7 days after birth because at that age functional cortical-subcortical connectivity is absent or rudimentary. This rules out cortically-based conscious perception of all sensations, including the conscious experience of pain that would otherwise result from docking-induced impulse barrages in pain pathways between the tail and brain [79,81,82,83].
> 
> It follows that drawing parallels between pain perception in puppies of tail docking age and in prematurely born human infants, however cautiously expressed this extrapolation might be [3,4,6,12], is neurologically inaccurate and therefore misleading. It is also apparent that similar extrapolations from observations in ungulate young and human infants born at full-term are likewise neurobiologically flawed. Finally, based on more appropriate comparisons with electrocortical activity in newborn and young rat pups [79,80] and direct observation of such activity in puppies from birth to 35 days of age [81,82,83], it may be concluded that nociceptive barrages caused by docking of puppies within 7 days of birth would not be consciously experienced as pain. Nevertheless, such docking seems likely to give rise to persistent pain experiences in the longer term at least in some individuals, as shall now be discussed.
> ...


and it continues...


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

I have docked dozens of tails on poodle puppies. I determine the length to dock by holding up the puppy's head and tail - a pup with a long neck needs a fairly long tail. The few dogs that I have seen who were docked by a vet were docked way too short. It's not a set amount, it's has to be in proportion. That is, however, more or less a tail length of about 2/3 the undocked tail length.


When docking a tail, one should push the skin toward the body so there will be plenty to cover the end of the tail after docking. Also, docking should be done between vertebrae - you don't cut through one!


If you plan to breed a litter, it would be a very good idea to find an experienced breeder of show poodles to help you with tails and dewclaws rather than have a vet do them. It's also good to have a second person - one to hold the puppy and one to do the trimming. I have never had a puppy squeak when the tail is docked - I have very occasionally had one who objected to the dew claw removal.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

PF members admonish new members routinely to not place color above other selection criteria. And yet choose to surgically alter the breed based on personal perceptions of beauty, a happy looking tail, balance or grooming styles. I side with the countries who have outlawed this practice. (Full disclosure, my son was born in one of those countries where male babies also aren’t routinely ‘docked.’)


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I have to wonder. Is docking really considered surgical? Not talking about the few claws. 


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Vita said:


> I've watched my cocker spaniel pups get their tails docked on their 3rd day of life. A topical anesthetic was put on these and the dewclaws. Not so much as a peep in protest. The vet said the trick is to cut between the tail joints cartilage, no later than 5 days of age. No pain = no worry or guilt.
> 
> Some states allow docking a few days more, but beyond this, you're getting into pain territory. I think all states have a very short time limit after the date of birth when docking can be done legally by a vet. Personally I think the sooner the better, while the window of opportunity is wide open.
> 
> ...


First off, that male Champion toy is drool worthy! WOW The word "perfection" comes to mind in seeing that dog.

Thank you for sharing what is correct. I have helped with many different breeds in docking but I had no idea what was correct in Standard Poodles. The ones I handled were docked but I've been told so many different things as I was searching for SPOOs. The picture helps. I didn't know what joint but that is a good point in that it's very important to go between the joints, not through a joint. 

On a funny note, if I had seen it when I first got this pup, I would have named him Bomb (after the black bird on Angry Bird that blows up... his tail is marked like a fuse). I don't do poms on the end of the tail but I leave a bit of fluff there & it looks like a fuse & cracks me up.


To the original poster, I would go look at as many pictures of Poodles in the size you're looking for & look at long tails vs docked tails & decide what looks best to your eyes. As you can see everyone has their own favorite for their own reasons.


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

There's no good reason to remove a healthy dog's healthy body part. It's still legal to cut tails and ears in our country, so to our eyes it "looks good" to see them that way.

Sugarfoot has a long dock, while Spice has a natural tail. Now that my eyes take in both, I can't help but be startled every once in a while at how "short" Sugar's tail seems to me, when previously I might have said that his tail was perfectly in balance, cut very well, to a good length, etc.

It's okay to have aesthetic preferences, of course. There's also "no good reason" to prefer one color of poodle over another, but I bet most of us have favorites! 

To prefer the look of a body part removed, though? My mind has changed on this as I've aged, and I won't have a docked or cropped dog again.



This glory of a tail. Purple tip courtesy of me!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

When a puppy with a mismark was born in the litter I was interested in, I indicated my interest in that pup. I asked the breeder if she would consider not docking that puppy as she couldn’t be shown in conformation. She replied that the puppy will have her kennel name and I was also planning to show her in agility ...and she will have a docked tail. Period. End of conversation. 

That was not a hill I was going to die on and I respect the breeder’ practices and right to run her program as she sees fit. She’s a show breeder and has been doing it over 40 years, something to be said for that long line of success.

And Gracie does have a very beautiful tail, beautiful everything, but I am a little biased, lol!


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

dogsavvy said:


> Vita said:
> 
> 
> > I've watched my cocker spaniel pups get their tails docked on their 3rd day of life. A topical anesthetic was put on these and the dewclaws. Not so much as a peep in protest. The vet said the trick is to cut between the tail joints cartilage, no later than 5 days of age. No pain = no worry or guilt.
> ...


 I decided to ask for a longer show dock. There was a couple reasons but the main ones were I really like a nice tail Pom and that seems difficult or almost impossible to get with an undocked tail and the other reason is I don’t like the tails that curl over the dog’s back and there’s no way to know how a puppy is going to carry it’s tail at only 1-3 days old and I can’t look at the parents tails for any hints since both are docked. So I’d rather not risk it.


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

scooterscout99 said:


> PF members admonish new members routinely to not place color above other selection criteria. And yet choose to surgically alter the breed based on personal perceptions of beauty, a happy looking tail, balance or grooming styles. I side with the countries who have outlawed this practice. (Full disclosure, my son was born in one of those countries where male babies also aren’t routinely ‘docked.’)


 I don’t think it’s surgical especially if breeders use the band method. You surgically alter a dog when you fix it which is just an easy out. In some countries they don’t fix their animals they just stay on top of training and watch their dogs to ensure no accidental pregnancies happen.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I might change my mind if indeed it is true that it can cause chronic pain in later years. But not from the procedure itself. After reading that scientific information that happens to interest me at least, it explains why there is no perception of pain before a couple weeks of age and why they may cry. (as a result of evolution and human care giving...instinct...Darwinian) And it explains what can happen in the long term that is detrimental. That last part would indeed concern me. I have not personally seen it. I haven't heard anyone else with poodles or Rotties or Dobermans mention any chronic pain in their docked tails later in life. Has anyone here observed that? Neuromas and other sensitivity? They say that is a possible adverse consequence. But not the docking itself if done during the first week or two when the cortical-subcortical connectivity is absent...is not developed yet in dogs. (It is in humans and some other animals...such as those that have to get up and be able to run soon after birth.) I don't have a_ strong_ preference either way.

As far as the argument about doing something unnatural to a dog...well, for me, that is a little incongruous because their whole world has been unnatural since humans got a hold of them, started fooling with outrageous selective breeding that doesn't do them any good with all these terrible genetic maladies and anatomical atrocities where they can't breath right, can't give birth naturally and dogs whose temperaments cause them to be used for viciousness and then they're dumped in shelters to languish and then killed for what they were bred for by humans. (pit bulls for instance) There are acondroplastic dogs that break their backs so easily and can't move like they ought to be able to. There are dogs with shapes that don't allow for cooling of their brains. (bull dogs) There are a whole lot worse things humans have exploited in dogs, have caused terrible pain and suffering than a little surgical change that doesn't cause pain because they lack the developmental ability to perceive pain at the age when that is done. (unless it is true that there can be long term adverse affects and it might be)


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I might change my mind if indeed it is true that it can cause chronic pain in later years. But not from the procedure itself. After reading that scientific information that happens to interest me at least, it explains why there is no perception of pain before a couple weeks of age and why they may cry. (as a result of evolution and human care giving...instinct...Darwinian) And it explains what can happen in the long term that is detrimental. That last part would indeed concern me. I have not personally seen it. I haven't heard anyone else with poodles or Rotties or Dobermans mention any chronic pain in their docked tails later in life. Has anyone here observed that? Neuromas and other sensitivity? They say that is a possible adverse consequence. But not the docking itself if done during the first week or two when the cortical-subcortical connectivity is absent...is not developed yet in dogs. (It is in humans and some other animals...such as those that have to get up and be able to run soon after birth.) I don't have a_ strong_ preference either way.
> 
> As far as the argument about doing something unnatural to a dog...well, for me, that is a little incongruous because their whole world has been unnatural since humans got a hold of them, started fooling with outrageous selective breeding that doesn't do them any good with all these terrible genetic maladies and anatomical atrocities where they can't breath right, can't give birth naturally and dogs whose temperaments cause them to be used for viciousness and then they're dumped in shelters to languish and then killed for what they were bred for by humans. (pit bulls for instance) There are acondroplastic dogs that break their backs so easily and can't move like they ought to be able to. There are dogs with shapes that don't allow for cooling of their brains. (bull dogs) There are a whole lot worse things humans have exploited in dogs, have caused terrible pain and suffering than a little surgical change that doesn't cause pain because they lack the developmental ability to perceive pain at the age when that is done. (unless it is true that there can be long term adverse affects and it might be)


 I grew up around Rotties, poodles, yorkies, and Maltese I never seen any suffer any problems from their tails being docked or them experience any pains from their tails as a kid I use to love playing with my Rottweiler’s nubs I have no clue why but they were always so entertaining to me lol. The smaller dogs definitely never showed any signs of their tails hurting when we brushed and combed their tails out.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Thailand/London said:


> I grew up around Rotties, poodles, yorkies, and *Maltese *I never seen any suffer any problems from their tails being docked or them experience any pains from their tails as a kid I use to love playing with my Rottweiler’s nubs I have no clue why but they were always so entertaining to me lol. The smaller dogs definitely never showed any signs of their tails hurting when we brushed and combed their tails out.


Maltese? Malts are not supposed to have docked tails.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Quossum said:


> It's still legal to cut tails and ears in our country, so to our eyes it "looks good" to see them that way.


Totally agree with you on this point.


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## Thailand/London (Sep 7, 2019)

MaizieFrosty said:


> Thailand/London said:
> 
> 
> > I grew up around Rotties, poodles, yorkies, and *Maltese *I never seen any suffer any problems from their tails being docked or them experience any pains from their tails as a kid I use to love playing with my Rottweiler’s nubs I have no clue why but they were always so entertaining to me lol. The smaller dogs definitely never showed any signs of their tails hurting when we brushed and combed their tails out.
> ...


 lol it was supposed to be Maltese mix. I.E Maltipoos and Malyorks. My aunt just got a cockapoo all the mixes have had their tails docked.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Personally I like the look of long docks and undocked, though I find some natural tails more appealing than others. I know females of breeds that dock tails tend to have more issues with urinary intontinence, but I do wonder if that might not be an issue with longer docks. I have more of an issue with dewclaw removal having long term effects, though not enough to make it a deal breaker when looking at breeders. Many human infants have various cosmetic alterations like male circumcision and ear piercing. I don't see it as very different.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Raindrops said:


> Many human infants have various cosmetic alterations like male circumcision and ear piercing. I don't see it as very different.


Yeah, you can guess where I stand on those issues as well. 



Thailand/London said:


> lol it was supposed to be Maltese mix. I.E Maltipoos and Malyorks. My aunt just got a cockapoo all the mixes have had their tails docked.


Docking mutt tails? That's even worse, imho, as there is zero point (i.e., they're not in the hunting field or show ring).


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I might change my mind if indeed it is true that it can cause chronic pain in later years. But not from the procedure itself. After reading that scientific information that happens to interest me at least, it explains why there is no perception of pain before a couple weeks of age and why they may cry. (as a result of evolution and human care giving...instinct...Darwinian) And it explains what can happen in the long term that is detrimental. That last part would indeed concern me. I have not personally seen it. I haven't heard anyone else with poodles or Rotties or Dobermans mention any chronic pain in their docked tails later in life. Has anyone here observed that? Neuromas and other sensitivity? They say that is a possible adverse consequence. But not the docking itself if done during the first week or two when the cortical-subcortical connectivity is absent...is not developed yet in dogs. (It is in humans and some other animals...such as those that have to get up and be able to run soon after birth.) I don't have a_ strong_ preference either way.
> 
> As far as the argument about doing something unnatural to a dog...well, for me, that is a little incongruous because their whole world has been unnatural since humans got a hold of them, started fooling with outrageous selective breeding that doesn't do them any good with all these terrible genetic maladies and anatomical atrocities where they can't breath right, can't give birth naturally and dogs whose temperaments cause them to be used for viciousness and then they're dumped in shelters to languish and then killed for what they were bred for by humans. (pit bulls for instance) There are acondroplastic dogs that break their backs so easily and can't move like they ought to be able to. There are dogs with shapes that don't allow for cooling of their brains. (bull dogs) There are a whole lot worse things humans have exploited in dogs, have caused terrible pain and suffering than a little surgical change that doesn't cause pain because they lack the developmental ability to perceive pain at the age when that is done. (unless it is true that there can be long term adverse affects and it might be)


Agreed. 

I have handled, trained, worked with a good man docked breeds well into old age & never seen a docked dog with issues later in life. 

The one issue I have seen is when a pup is docked too short. I've seen a rare few who someone docked too short. That can create issues especially if the went thru bone rather than between joints. THAT is a big no no in Dobermans but really any breed. Also if the person docking doesn't have the skin proper to cover the tail without being too tight. 

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If I ever learn to the contrary of the science I've read, I would definitely change my mind. It's not that I'm so stuck on what I think that I fear losing face if I change my mind on account of undeniable evidence. According to what I've read in a couple studies, it appears that they do _not_ have the ability to feel pain until they're about 14 days old. So the pain isn't perceived by their brain. Other sensory mechanisms are not developed that young either, such as hearing, seeing etc. 

But the more I read (I'm still, little by little looking into this) it could be that the nervous system (to make this short and simple) develops a pattern or a pathway between neurons and the brain that receives the information to _create_ more ability to feel pain_ later on_ in that area. And if that's the case, I would be against this. It's just that I have never noticed anything...not when I brush or shave the poodles bums, tail etc. I have never heard anyone talk about this regarding their dogs that are docked. I never noticed anything with my Dobe's tail. I can grab my poodles' tails and lift them a few inches off the table when squaring them up when I was showing or re-positioning them and they're entirely unfazed. So I don't know...just haven't seen any evidence of that. But if indeed there is any suffering...or I should say significant suffering, I'd be advocating against this. I say significant because I'm thinking about things that cause pain like vaccines (unnecessary ones) or making a boo boo clipping nails or nicking them while grooming. That happens once in a while. They get over it. Okay, okay...so this procedure is not necessary like those other things. But if it is as science that I've been reading, at least so far says, I don't know that it's such a terrible thing. And I don't buy it that they're unexpressive and that other dogs can't read them. I have never seen any evidence of that. They still can lower their tails, put them left or right, straight up, wag just as well. So, I'm having trouble buying into that one. Maybe the science isn't good that I've read or there will be something else learned, a new and improved "study" to show I'm mistaken as time goes by. And then I'll change my tune. Maybe others will too if they continue to stay on top of the findings...if they're well done studies. 

I don't plan on anymore dogs so those who think I'm cruel and hateful because I haven't seen evidence to _refute _my assessment of this and of the science I have read at this time... can rest assured there won't likely be further support of another "viciously mutilated" dog in my decreasing future.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

PB, no one thinks you are cruel or hateful! Some just believe the practice of docking to be cruel. Some go off of articles, some go by word of mouth, and as I said, I go off of numerous YouTube videos I've watched of puppies screaming and squeaking in pain.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

MaizieFrosty said:


> PB, no one thinks you are cruel or hateful! Some just believe the practice of docking to be cruel. Some go off of articles, some go by word of mouth, and as I said, I go off of numerous YouTube videos I've watched of puppies screaming and squeaking in pain.


Since I hadn't seen what you've seen, I did a search for "painful tail docking" on YouTube. Indeed there are some heinous methods people have used to dock like using rubber bands to cut the blood flow, and cleanliness is questionable.

A common mistake is cutting the tail straight across instead of at a slight angle so the skin won't be too tight around the bone when it heals. That's like a male infant circumcision that doesn't leave enough skin so that when the male part changes size, the skin is pulled too tight and is uncomfortable. In a 2 to 5 day old poodle pup that's only had 1/4 or 1/3 of it's tail docked, a dissolvable stitch can be done at the end of the tail. 

I do believe that Johanna and skilled breeders can do this correctly, but after seeing only two videos of the botched jobs by idiot DIY tail dockers skimping on paying a vet do it and/or doing it later than 5 days, I shudder for those pups. It also appeared that very short tail docks by the DIY crowd like in boxers have a greater risk of something going wrong, probably b/c it's so close to the forming bones. 

It's easier to understand now that views on tail docking are divided. I wondered what legislation already exists by state, and it appears a lot of thought has already gone into this. Here's the link to the AVMA State Summary Report:

State Laws Governing Elective Surgical Procedures


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

MaizieFrosty said:


> PB, no one thinks you are cruel or hateful! Some just believe the practice of docking to be cruel. Some go off of articles, some go by word of mouth, and as I said, I go off of numerous YouTube videos I've watched of puppies* screaming and squeaking in pain.*



Is there evidence that they're screaming and squeaking _because_ they're in pain? 

They are not physiologically able to perceive pain until 14 days old as far as medical science shows. 

You do know that animals and human babies cry for other reasons besides pain. How about what the studies suggest? 

Did you read that study I linked? I read it word for word. I read another one but didn't post it because it's similar. 

I think if you and others who worry about docking would do some reading or research, they'd feel a lot better about this and wouldn't refer to the procedure as mutilation, cruel or any other horrifying adjective. That's a big stretch....at least when it's done correctly. And these ghastly descriptions imply that people who don't observe any cruelty or pain in the procedure must not have compassion for animals. One can not exist without the other so that inference can hardly be avoided. 

Now, when they talk about those laws that Vita posted, they mention cattle and other animals. Those animals are not the same neurologically as canine puppies. They do develop the ability to perceive pain and have their other sensory perceptions developed early on because of the fact that they're animals that get up very soon after birth and walk, run soon after that. They need that right away. This is all part of evolution. Canines do not have all of their sensory connections finished until days, weeks after birth.

If it is true that they've seen pain and suffering in dogs later...after they develop the neuron-to-brain connection, then that is terrible. I just haven't seen it and I've seen and had plenty of association with an awful lot of dogs with docked tails and owned a few of them. 

I firmly believe that often there's more to it than what we observe with no understanding of what may_ really_ be going on. And you can't get that without good research and if it's a good scientifically carried out study, that is part of the research. Science isn't everything. They aren't always right, as we see often. But it's the best we have. 

Youtube videos are not science. They can be doctored, they can be taken of people doing things incorrectly. They can be designed to elicit emotions rather than look at the physiological workings or the anatomy of a canine neonate. They can be biased and designed to play on emotions to build a legal agenda. 

Running off of emotions... and believe me, due to our convergent evolution with dogs and our innate and instinctive desire and need to protect our young, even the young of another species, (why we breed many breeds to retain their neonatal appearance through adulthood) we can misinterpret things we see and jump to the conclusion that we're seeing a puppy in pain. But what other factor or factors might be present? Might the puppy be screaming because he's been taken away from the warmth of his mother and the ability to suckle, a very strong survival instinct? They've done numerous systematic tests with this and observed and tracked their findings. Maybe reading a study or two is too much for some, as they tend to be somewhat long...it's easier to leap over scientific method and come to rest comfortably on a conclusion based on emotions, something even a lot of vets get sucked into. I totally get that and understand.

If it is shown to be otherwise, I'd be on the front lines, rallying against causing misery to an animal. I just simply don't see that. And I trust both my poodle breeder, the many poodle people I associated with in the poodle club and my Doberman breeder and those people. The two docked breeds I've owned and been around had no lasting problems and their breeders weren't liars or in denial. They were very experienced and trusted breeders by many. Some members here have described their experience when this procedure was done. People can rest assured this doesn't create pain and suffering in 3 day old puppies.

I luv ya gf with all my heart but it would be a good thing to try not to let emotions be the end all...Keep on going and looking into it. Maybe you're right and the whole medical thing is wrong. Then you can make me eat my hat. Or is it my shoe?


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

PB, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that those puppies in the *videos I watched* were in pain. No, I don't have time to read all of the scientific stuff. I'm using Occam's razor.

ETA: Have you ever seen a snake eat a live pinky rat or mouse? Those baby rodents are between newborn and a week old, and when they're handled, they don't make a peep. When a snake bites down on them, they scream. You don't think that's pain? 

I honestly can't believe anyone would believe that puppies (or rodents) don't feel pain in the first days and weeks, just because they are not as developed as a farm animal or human. That just doesn't make any sense to *my mind*.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Okay...well, on that point, we'll just have to move along and forget it.:act-up:


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

:amen:


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

Thailand/London said:


> the litter is due in a few weeks and mom is known for having small litters only
> 1-3 puppies. I’m first pick of the litter the other person waiting doesn’t mind either way. I’ll know which is my puppy in the first 2 or 3 weeks.


So is your breeder not doing conformation evaluations and temperament testing? Which are done around 7 weeks for temperament testing and at various stages for conformation? My breeder picks puppies for prospective owners based on what they plan to do with their dogs based on those tests and we don't know what puppy we are getting until after they are done.....


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## Yellow (Sep 24, 2018)

I like the docked tail. I guess it is preference. either way its a poodle


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I bred rats for several years. They actually DO protest vocally when taken away from their mother. Whether I'd hold it in my hand or set it down to get a picture/pictures, those babies would wail! 

All the puppies I witnessed getting their tails docked, well, they started complaining (verbally) the second the vet picked them up. Did they scream out when the tail was docked? No. Within 3 seconds they were back with mom, suckling, and all were quiet. The pups I've witnessed were done at approximately 68-70 hours old. They really do not perceive pain at that time. I agree with PoodleBeguiled... too many people run on emotions about things like this, and because the puppy is whimpering, think it is feeling pain. It is the absence of their mother they are objecting to. If they felt pain, they would feel it much longer than the 3 seconds it takes to put them back on mom.

Now, would I have a puppy's ear cropped? NEVER! That is surgery, and it causes real pain after surgery.. Infections can happen, the tape on the ears can cut into the skin, also causing an infection. 

I would think a bee sting on my arm is way more painful than a 70 hour old pup getting its tail docked. Quit watching YouTube videos and read the studies. I think you'll be surprised.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I bred rats as well, JoJo. I bred for temperament, and mine never complained when being removed from the mother.

Why don’t you watch some of those videos that I’m talking about on YouTube? Why don’t you see the puppies that are totally fine until they get one of their pieces chopped off?


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm late to this discussion and haven't read the entire thread, but I'm wondering how many of the people who are against tail docking because of the pain caused had (or would have had, if they'd had boys) their infant sons circumcised. (I also prefer the look of a docked tail, if anyone is counting.)


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

JudyD said:


> I'm late to this discussion and haven't read the entire thread, but I'm wondering how many of the people who are against tail docking because of the pain caused had (or would have had, if they'd had boys) their infant sons circumcised. (I also prefer the look of a docked tail, if anyone is counting.)


Judy, if I had had a boy say 10 years ago, I would have had him circumcised. Now I would not. Yes, I think it looks better. But I don't think it's medically necessary and it causes the baby pain (my nephew had it done and it was pretty traumatic to watch, just like tail docking).


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

My son is forty-five. He was circumcised because it was very important to my husband (no religious reasons, just that he's from a generation that had it done routinely). I would not have agreed, if I'd known then what I knew a few years later, when I worked as an OB nurse. Both of my grandsons are intact, happily. 

My point isn't to create an argument about circumcision, more to point out that how much pain you're willing to put another creature through depends on culture, religion, custom, family pressures, personal preference, etc.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

JudyD said:


> My point isn't to create an argument about circumcision, more to point out that *how much pain you're willing to put another creature through* depends on culture, religion, custom, family pressures, personal preference, etc.


Absolutely agree. I just think the pain should be acknowledged.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I wouldn't put much stock in YouTube videos since I've assisted in both docking, cropping, & dewclaw removal. Actually been there in person. I've held pups, assisting vets or well trained breeders during dock & dew claw work. Pros don't have puppies screaming in pain at 2 days old from docking or dewclaws. I've done the after care on ears dewclaws, aftercare for ear crop, the taping of ears through standing. Ive never had tape cut into a pup or infection from tape. You have to be on top of cleaning with cropped ears. My Giant in the pic has had all 3. You'll never meet a dog less touchy about her ears or tail. Now if you go back to the 60s-70s, there were some idiots who cropped ears in some barbaric ways. We had 2 pups from my 1st Doberman who were positively dangerous if you wore white around them. The associated the white smock with the men who hurt them. Fortunately it's not done that way by an ethical breeder or vet. 

Never seen anything that comes close to the YouTube stuff described here.









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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

That is good to hear, dogsavvy. Your Giant is gorgeous.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Thank you. She's pretty special. She detected cancer in my Mom long before Mom got sick. Sadly, we humans were too daft to properly interpret her indication. We got it that something was bad wrong but you cant take the woman to the dr & say, "the Giant Schnauzer Grandpup says Grandma has a health problem, please find it." Well you can but medical people won't believe you. In the end, the Giant knew. But she was Grandma's protector & mine.

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## Newport (Jul 16, 2014)

Okay, I'm going to weigh in here. I wish we would evolve enough to stop chopping stuff off of our beautiful bodies, the bodies of our darling children and our beloved dogs. Let's love our bodies, and kids and dogs the way they are. 

All that said, I'd be happy with just having a true choice because our culture begins supporting a choice. Right now to get a well bred poodle I need to ignore the tail docking issue. I believe that will be the state of affairs until or unless the Poodle Club of America takes action that levels the field between docked and undocked dogs in the show ring. Then the pressure will be off of breeders to dock, and some will choose to continue to dock and some won't. Then I will feel I have a choice.

And, to play devil's advocate with myself, it is worth noting that circumcision (talking human males here) has been shown to reduce the spread of HIV. So there could be a public health role for circumcision. Still seems like a bogus thing to do to a baby, though.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Newport said:


> And, to play devil's advocate with myself, it is worth noting that circumcision (talking human males here) has been shown to reduce the spread of HIV. So there could be a public health role for circumcision. Still seems like a bogus thing to do to a baby, though.


Honestly, I was in the no circumcision club. Just seemed barbaric thing to do to a baby. Then I got the input from a man who was not circumcised. This was a close family member. Who knew? He cited numerous hygiene & health reasons including considering having himself circumcised as an adult despite the pain. My husband was adamant that if we had children the boys be circumcised. For the longest time I thought it was a matter of religious beliefs but it most certainly was not. It all came from their family members who were not. That was enough for me. Turned out not to be an issue for us but if I'd had boys, I would have had it done based on the info from men who'd had to live with it.


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

Circumcision may lower the risk of HIV (but for God's sake everyone, use protection!!!), but it also reduces male sexual pleasure.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Human circumcision and docking a dog's tail are unrelated in that humans _Do_ feel/perceive pain right away when they're born. Canines do _not_ according to medical science and the extensively done studies. The neuron-to- brain connection has simply not been created yet. It is not there. Youtube is not comparable to_ good _science imo. I've seen Youtube videos showing docking where the puppies didn't make a peep. As people mentioned here, having assisted in the procedure, they saw no indication of pain. Crying when taken from their mothers and their mammary delivery system, yes. The second they're put back on their mama's teat, all is well...not another peep out of them. It was described this way from my breeders and other poodle people/breeders I've met when showing Matisse as well. So, these things _can _be orchestrated to show the worst...to get people riled up and play on their emotions. It can't be known why the puppies are crying until all the factors are individually tested. That's merely a hypothesis. Now, show the proof and all that was done to arrive at that conclusion. The studies show why because they singled out smaller factors, particle _before_ arriving at their conclusion.

According to my European ex, cleaning when uncircumcised is not a problem at all. It just means a couple second-long procedure with some water. LOL.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> According to my European ex, cleaning when uncircumcised is not a problem at all. It just means a couple second-long procedure with some water. LOL.


Yep, that's all it takes! So the cleanliness argument isn't really valid, IMHO.


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Dont know. Dont have that part so no personal experience I just know what the guy said & his reasons. Good enough for me

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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

We had a terrible time deciding what to do with our son. The only thing we thought of at that time...35 years ago was the other kids...in the gym locker. Might he be made fun of? We didn't know for sure but thought it would be best to get it done for that reason alone. The pain? Ouch! But we figured it would be over quickly. Were we right? Wrong? I don't know. I think he's fine and probably the pain was short lived and he doesn't remember now. Some of these things are indeed a difficult decision and lots of thought and research should be done before making decisions. And to each his own. 

When I was born, my mom got a bill from the hospital for circumcision. She had to remind them that I was a girl and there was no way... :lol:


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Thailand/London said:


> Opinions on docked vs undocked? My breeder asked if I had a preference but I’m 50/50. I’ve only seen in person poodles with docked tails. how long are the tails? I know too short of a dock and it’ll be hard to get a decent Pom. What are some thoughts on it look wise do longer tails automatically equal better easier poms? is it hard to keep the hair on the tail detangled?


I'm Canadian, docking tails and cropping ears is banned in most municipalities. I will let others weigh in on the ethical/cruelty/moral side of this issue, Seems like there are no shortage of opinions. I have an undocked Standard Poodle , and everybody loves his tail. It is a jaunty banner that flamboyantly semaphores his mood to all. It is as jolly as a drum mayor's baton, and a tremendous aid to communication with both humans and other dogs. Even when Charlie 's body has a summer shave, we leave his tail long because it is so gorgeous. Here is a photo. It speaks for itself.








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