# Toy poodle's loyalty?



## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

Hello everyone,

I need some behavior explanation from all the experience poodle owners on this forum. I'm a fairly new poodle owner and I found out something that made me question my dogs loyalty this week. 

I had to go for a business trip for four nights so I left my dog with my friend and her husband. I picked my dog Sprout up two nights ago, and notice some very disturbing behaviors. 

First, when I picked him up he was sorta indifferent, I see dogs racing to their owners like they haven't seen them in years but he was acting more like "oh it's you".  

Second, he would not listen to me when I ask him to come or to sit???! He used to do it immediately when I ask, and worst I had to say it in a really stern voice for it to work, not even treats. Because when I bust out the treats to get him to sit - he went for the treat I'm holding in my hand like he was trying to steal it from me???

Third, after we got home he seems like he is no longer a Velcro dog, no longer whining as much when I step out of the room or following me every where. 

In honesty I missed him terribly for those four nights, but his behavior really disappointed me. I thought poodles are loyal am I wrong?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

just some thoughts. is this the first time you have left him with someone else? did your friends say anything about how he adapted? 

look at it from the dog's point of view for a moment. he was a velcro dog and you "abandoned" him. he was unprepared for that. then you reappeared and he has no idea when you'll abandon him again. 

i could be totally off, because i am just extrapolating from my own dog (not a poodle), but here are some things my dog did: when i took him for his first groom, we came home and he hid in the kitchen - seemingly avoiding me. the first time i took him to doggy day care (for just a few hours), he was happy to see me, but lay down in the parking lot when he saw the car and refused to get in. as many times as i had taken him to the vet, the first time the vet tech took blood and urine samples (in the lab, without me present), when the visit was at an end, my dog stayed as far away as possible from me.

i'm just speculating that some dogs have a sense of betrayal of trust, and we are unable to explain to them that that is not involved. i'm sure there will be pf members coming out of the woodwork to protest against anthropomorphizing, but i haven't seen a better explanation.

btw, i taught my dog to celebrate my departure by giving him a treat whenever i left, but always making sure to give a treat upon my return. he began to look forward to my departure. the framework for that, however, is several hours. i'm not sure it would work for several days.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I would be a little concerned to know how the friends treated him while he was with them. Was he happy and playful with them when you arrived, or quiet and a little withdrawn? If he is used to lots of attention and only kindness from you, and they were sterner and more forceful with him, he may well have shut down and decided it is better to keep away and stay quiet than risk punishment. If they used forceful methods to reinforce sit, come, etc the cues may have come to be associated with unpleasant things. Or it is possible, of course, that he was having a whale of a time, and home is a bit dull by comparison... Or he could even be coming down with a bug - I would be watching him for signs of illness.

When I was a very small child - about 2 and a half - I went into hospital to have my tonsils out. It was in the days when mothers were not allowed to visit as it "upset the children". When I came home after a few days I hid under the sideboard, and refused to come out for hours. I was too young to think in terms of revenge, or anything like that - I think it was more that for a while the automatic feeling of safety my mother had always given me was broken, and I found a safe place to compensate. 

Either way, I would focus on rebuilding and reinforcing your relationship with Sprout, and not on how "loyal" he is. I would encourage his slightly more independent behaviour, but also get back into a routine of walks and training and play and fun stuff, and be very wary of any negative stuff while he is subdued.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

Awww...don't take it personally, like a loyalty thing. She's just a little confused probably. Give her a little time to re-adjust. Do things with her she use to like to do; play with a ball, take a walk, try some little obedience tricks, and don't ever be harsh if she does a no no. Just show her what you want and give her something she likes. She'll come back around. I have no doubt.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

Your dog is exhibiting more confident and stable behavior and you are concerned? Clingyness and anxiousness when being left alone are not loyalty, they are insecurity. The independence Sprout is developing is good. You will likely need to work on obedience a bit more if the trend continues, because he will no longer be terrified to step out of line.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think a dog can be independent but also like to be close to his human. I don't think the OP is seeing independence so much because it was such a sudden change and the dog seems to be withdrawing. I think the dog may be a little bewildered from these changes and perhaps a little unfocused for the moment. 

Most dogs are ecstatic to see their owners return and I don't equate that with insecurity. Dogs are suppose to rely on their families and feel bonded to them. I don't see that as insecure. It's just the way dogs and humans are together. They've depended on humans for thousands of years to one extent or another. Some breeds are more independent than others. I don't think Poodles are so much that way. They're pretty biddable. If a dog falls completely apart when their owner leaves, then that's too dependent. So, hopefully this is just a passing thing where she will soon get back in balance.


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

patk said:


> just some thoughts. is this the first time you have left him with someone else? did your friends say anything about how he adapted?
> 
> look at it from the dog's point of view for a moment. he was a velcro dog and you "abandoned" him. he was unprepared for that. then you reappeared and he has no idea when you'll abandon him again.
> 
> ...



Yes this is the first time I left him for four nights, but I think u have a point. After all he is just a nine month old pup... Perhaps he did thinks I left him  thanks for the insight


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

fjm said:


> I would be a little concerned to know how the friends treated him while he was with them. Was he happy and playful with them when you arrived, or quiet and a little withdrawn? If he is used to lots of attention and only kindness from you, and they were sterner and more forceful with him, he may well have shut down and decided it is better to keep away and stay quiet than risk punishment. If they used forceful methods to reinforce sit, come, etc the cues may have come to be associated with unpleasant things. Or it is possible, of course, that he was having a whale of a time, and home is a bit dull by comparison... Or he could even be coming down with a bug - I would be watching him for signs of illness.
> 
> When I was a very small child - about 2 and a half - I went into hospital to have my tonsils out. It was in the days when mothers were not allowed to visit as it "upset the children". When I came home after a few days I hid under the sideboard, and refused to come out for hours. I was too young to think in terms of revenge, or anything like that - I think it was more that for a while the automatic feeling of safety my mother had always given me was broken, and I found a safe place to compensate.
> 
> Either way, I would focus on rebuilding and reinforcing your relationship with Sprout, and not on how "loyal" he is. I would encourage his slightly more independent behaviour, but also get back into a routine of walks and training and play and fun stuff, and be very wary of any negative stuff while he is subdued.


Actually from what my friends tell me they seem to spoil him with constant attention... So perhaps he had too much fun. Thanks for your answer


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

Pluto said:


> Your dog is exhibiting more confident and stable behavior and you are concerned? Clingyness and anxiousness when being left alone are not loyalty, they are insecurity. The independence Sprout is developing is good. You will likely need to work on obedience a bit more if the trend continues, because he will no longer be terrified to step out of line.


What I'm concern about is he didn't even greet me when I came through my friends door, and proceed to be distance afterwards. I don't encourage clingy ness or insecurity either, but wouldn't any pet parent wonder if their dog is still bonded to them and why is this bond so easily broken?

In addition, he was very good at doing tricks before....would four days change a dog so much that he can't even do the most basic 'sit' command? I took him to training class and he pass with flying colors and the 180 in behavior is concerning.


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

Poodlebeguiled said:


> I think a dog can be independent but also like to be close to his human. I don't think the OP is seeing independence so much because it was such a sudden change and the dog seems to be withdrawing. I think the dog may be a little bewildered from these changes and perhaps a little unfocused for the moment.
> 
> Most dogs are ecstatic to see their owners return and I don't equate that with insecurity. Dogs are suppose to rely on their families and feel bonded to them. I don't see that as insecure. It's just the way dogs and humans are together. They've depended on humans for thousands of years to one extent or another. Some breeds are more independent than others. I don't think Poodles are so much that way. They're pretty biddable. If a dog falls completely apart when their owner leaves, then that's too dependent. So, hopefully this is just a passing thing where she will soon get back in balance.


Thanks for understanding. Yes I want my dog to be independent, no I don't like the fact he is acting distance or not ecstatic to see me when I returned (cuz I was really looking forward to see him first thing off the plane). I still love him regardless and hopefully as you say that it just passing. Thanks


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Lydia said:


> Actually from what my friends tell me they seem to spoil him with constant attention... So perhaps he had too much fun. Thanks for your answer


years ago my friend's brother had a papillon that he and his wife boarded for several weeks with a family with an excellent reputation for caring for people's dogs. when they returned from their european vacation, their papillon did not want to go home with them! it seems the boarding facility owners let the papillon sleep in bed with them and doubtless treated the dog the same way in other matters, while the owner's wife was actually something of a martinet - down to not leaving a bowl of fresh water available at all times! so at least some dogs are perfectly capable of making choices that, in fact, are logical in terms of their own interests. much depends on the bond, but i also think much depends on the temperament and personality of the dog.


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

patk said:


> years ago my friend's brother had a papillon that he and his wife boarded for several weeks with a family with an excellent reputation for caring for people's dogs. when they returned from their european vacation, their papillon did not want to go home with them! it seems the boarding facility owners let the papillon sleep in bed with them and doubtless treated the dog the same way in other matters, while the owner's wife was actually something of a martinet - down to not leaving a bowl of fresh water available at all times! so at least some dogs are perfectly capable of making choices that, in fact, are logical in terms of their own interests. much depends on the bond, but i also think much depends on the temperament and personality of the dog.


This is my first poodle not my first dog. I actually have two dogs before sprout, a german shepherd and a mutt. i guess i got spoiled with estatic home welcoming whenever i am gone for an extensive amount of time. Hence i was surprise with Sprout's reaction when i returned. i guess i am more strict then my friends but i am also very good to Sprout (see my other postings)...perhaps I should give him some leeway, he is still a nine month old pup.

The ironic part is i was afraid he would develop some separation anxiety when he was younger...at least I now know it is not a problem. Lol


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

probably as others have said the more activities you engage in with him, the stronger the bond will be. my friend's brother was so upset when his papillon didn't want to go home with him that he began taking the dog everywhere with him to help strengthen the bond. i suspect it's not so much the indulgence in a relationship that matters, as the mutual sense of companionship. how to get to that point, however, seems to depend on the dog. anyway, i do think you are lucky not to have to worry about separation anxiety.


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

patk said:


> probably as others have said the more activities you engage in with him, the stronger the bond will be. my friend's brother was so upset when his papillon didn't want to go home with him that he began taking the dog everywhere with him to help strengthen the bond. i suspect it's not so much the indulgence in a relationship that matters, as the mutual sense of companionship. how to get to that point, however, seems to depend on the dog. anyway, i do think you are lucky not to have to worry about separation anxiety.


I know how your brother feels!!! who say dogs will love you unconditionally? ;p. 

I do take him everywhere, hiking, doggie play date, training, even on my vacation. My friend jokingly told me, that my dog likes me so much he was angry that I left him....lol if only its true.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

Lydia said:


> I know how your brother feels!!! who say dogs will love you unconditionally? ;p.
> 
> I do take him everywhere, hiking, doggie play date, training, even on my vacation. My friend jokingly told me, that my dog likes me so much he was angry that I left him....lol if only its true.


well in my first post i indicated that i thought that something similar could be the case. most dog trainers will pooh-pooh that as anthropomorphizing. i'm one of the people who believes dogs have emotional lives about which we know very little and that it is more the case when we get down to the individual dog. (why else do dogs bark, whine, etc., while dreaming?) i had two lowchen (now down to one, a 16-year-old male). that is probably one of the smallest gene pools in the world among dogs. yet they were polar opposites in so many ways. you kind of have to adapt to the individual dog as much as they have to adapt to you. i'm pretty sure you and your dog will be back on track. dogs are generally much smarter than people when it comes to recognizing a good thing when they've got it!


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

patk said:


> well in my first post i indicated that i thought that something similar could be the case. most dog trainers will pooh-pooh that as anthropomorphizing. i'm one of the people who believes dogs have emotional lives about which we know very little and that it is more the case when we get down to the individual dog. (why else do dogs bark, whine, etc., while dreaming?) i had two lowchen (now down to one, a 16-year-old male). that is probably one of the smallest gene pools in the world among dogs. yet they were polar opposites in so many ways. you kind of have to adapt to the individual dog as much as they have to adapt to you. i'm pretty sure you and your dog will be back on track. dogs are generally much smarter than people when it comes to recognizing a good thing when they've got it!


No kidding. I had the same exact conversation with one of my coworker that read a book that talks about how we tend to assign our own explanation and humanize dogs. When I was younger my mutt ran home to get help when I had a biking accident. My mom said my dog was barking like crazy dashing back and forth until they followed him to where I fall from my bike and got an broken ankle. This same dog would ignore me for days when I play pranks on him, track lost dogs, even saved a dog from falling off the roof once (very lassie-ish) ...no one can tell me our canine companions have no emotions - even though my coworker insist I'm just trying to explain my dogs behavior with human intellect. 

When my parents divorced they gave the mutt away. I was heart broken. The only one time I visited him - he put his head into me and whimpered. I held him and cried when he did that, had I been old enough I would take him with me and never give him away. Unfortunately sprout is nowhere like him... Probably not fair to compare either.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

that is so wonderful and sad at the same time about your mutt. don't count sprout out yet. independent dogs, if that is what he turns out to be, have their own special qualities.


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## Lydia (May 31, 2013)

patk said:


> that is so wonderful and sad at the same time about your mutt. don't count sprout out yet. independent dogs, if that is what he turns out to be, have their own special qualities.


Don't get me wrong, I still love Sprout it's just a different relationship. The mutt, Popeye, is more like my friend, while sprout is my bratty kid .


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## loves (Jul 2, 2013)

As for him forgetting his tricks and obedience commands, that could just be the natural course of events. I have read in more than one dog training book that a dog hasn't learned something until he learns it, "forgets" it, and then relearns it. I've seen many dogs seem to have something well learned and then it is like "what, you want me to do what? No Habla English" Just start over at the beginning, and remember he is still a puppy.


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