# As different as night and day...



## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

Okay, I have an odd sort of challenge with Loki and crate training. Each night he sleeps in our bedroom and is put in a crate and he doesn't complain, sleeping through each night a full seven or eight hours.

During the daylight hours, I've been encouraging or at least trying to encourage him to go into the crate on the main floor. It's just not working. He will go in about two inches and no further. It doesn't matter what high-value treat or toy I put in, it's two inches and not a step further. I don't want to force him in but I sure would like him to be able to go into the crate from time to time when it's still light outside. 

Anyone with any thoughts on this or experience with a behavior like this?

It sure is nice to have a place to get support from!


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

Look up “crate games”.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

scooterscout99 said:


> Look up “crate games”.


Yes, as near as I can tell I'm using those techniques. However, as he won't take out any treat more than an inch or two inside the crate, we seem to be at an impasse. 

I can put anything inside, things he loves, but if it is past that two-inch threshold it will remain untouched for all time. 

If he won't venture even a little way in, it's pretty hard to find a behavior to reward and reinforce.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

These are different crates? If so, is one a wire crate and the other an airline (plastic) crate?


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

Johanna said:


> These are different crates? If so, is one a wire crate and the other an airline (plastic) crate?


Yes, an uncovered wire crate in the bedroom and an airline plastic crate on the main floor.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

GlennR said:


> ... Each night he sleeps in our bedroom and is put in a crate and he doesn't complain, sleeping through each night a full seven or eight hours... During the daylight hours, I've been encouraging or at least trying to encourage him to go into the crate... He will go in about two inches and no further. It doesn't matter what high-value treat or toy I put in, it's two inches and not a step further.


I try to look at things from the dog's point of view. Imagine sleeping in your bed for 7 or 8 hours, then using the bathroom and having a quick breakfast, then told to get back in your bed for another 8+ hours. 

In another post you said he's well behaved when he's alone and not destructive - except when you're in the same room with him and he gets over-excited and acts up. If there's anyway you can leave him alone while you work and hire a noon-time dog walker, that might work. I'd try it out for an hour trip to the grocery store first, then longer, and see how Loki does.

Btw, I had the _exact_ problem with my tpoo when I first got her at 10-1/2 weeks old. To this day she has _never_ stayed in her kennel without howling and going into a panic attack. I gave up, and am glad I did. 

There's something called Containment Phobia, see video.






I think you've made a good decision so far to not force Loki into the kennel, as this could create that problem, which from my point of view, is more of a problem for him than for you since he's the one who'd have to sit or lie in a cage 16 hours a day, which is unnatural for a dog.

It's a really, really tough situation and stressed me out a lot the first two weeks. I lucked up and found a good neighbor who turned out to be a wonderful doggy sitter twice a week and let Bella have free range of my home the other three days, and wee pads were great. If you can afford doggy care or at least a noon time dog walker until Loki can keep from using the bathroom 8+ hours while you're at work, it would be a win-win situation for both of you.

If you find that impossible, a spoo could go through a large wee pad every day, but that's a test option too while you're work. In that case I suggest you feed him 2 hours before leaving for work then take him out twice before you leave the house. For my tpoo I also leave on an 8-hour relaxing music video and one of these, and she's always had free range of my home except the bedroom where there's carpeting.

Best wishes.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

He isn't going to be in the crate during the day for more than a half hour, here and there, so I can attend to things. I'm home full time so I only want him in there when I have to do things where I can't keep an eye on him. For instance, I don't want to drag him up and down stairs to do laundry but I also don't want to leave him unattended at this stage.

I would never crate him for a full day.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Glad to hear that. Maybe give him a knuck bone or bully stick that he can drag around with him as you do chores.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

Vita said:


> Glad to hear that. Maybe give him a knuck bone or bully stick that he can drag around with him as you do chores.


When I'm on the same floor, I just keep him with me. For instance, I'll gate the kitchen when I'm cooking and he amuses himself on his bed with an assortment of toys. However, when it involves multiple floors, it would be nice to crate him so that I don't have to worry. I certainly can't carry him up and down with the laundry basket. 

I have found over the years, there is no space that is completely puppy proof no matter how much you do to clear everything away if a clever poodle is left alone to his own devices.


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## reraven123 (Jul 21, 2017)

How about an x-pen?


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Like Loki, we were fortunate that our boys slept quietly and happily in their condos at night. 

Using different crates for downstairs for some daytime breaks (them and us lol), not so much. 

I had thought that putting them in their bedtime condo in the daytime was just too much time in there, but that turned out to be the solution for us. They rolled into them in the afternoon for a nap with no fuss or drama. Mostly. Usually. 

I wouldn't call what we did crate training as such, but it got the desired result until they decided naps were out, around 8m old. By that time, they could also be fairly reliably left alone for shortish stretches in their restricted area of the house. We still have some work to do, to make sure they'll be chill in their condos for short times, when we travel with them.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Could it simply be that the enclosed plastic crate makes him nervous? Perhaps the solution is a second crate identical to the bedroom one, and lots of crate games.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

how do you get him to go into his crate in the evening? if you use a key word, repeating it when you want him to go into the downstairs crate might help. also once he goes in, try sitting by the crate for awhile so he doesn't associate it with your leaving him. when you do get up to leave, leave an especially loved treat with him. might work.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

reraven123 said:


> How about an x-pen?


For sure that would solve the at home problem of supervision but I want crate training for travel and hotel stays and the like. 

I will keep working at luring him in, leaving things in there and I hope that he will eventually move further in to retrieve something tempting. Right now I'm putting them just inside where he can reach without going in with more than his head. I will gather my patience and keep at it. 

I'll see if time will give him enough familiarity to develop comfort with it.

At night we give him no choice as he is carried up the stairs and put into his crate with a "Kennel" command. Night time confinement was a must with us and he has adapted well. He lies down the second the lights go out and sleeps through until morning. 

My little angel is sleeping comfortably on my feet at the moment. Coming from a litter of eleven means he loves to cuddle and, perhaps, came with a bit more anxiousness at being left alone anywhere. 

Still, I am seeing some real signs of a burgeoning confidence. He will go sleep on his bed many times without lying on or against my feet. He will venture into the next room by himself without needing to keep me in sight. 

I'm looking forward to his second set of shots, just a week away, so that the world will open up to us to explore together. The crate is far from an urgent issue and I'm sure that eventually, we'll get over his fear of the crate and he will learn to love it as a safe den as all my previous dogs have done.


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## marialydia (Nov 23, 2013)

Pericles used to love his wire crate (we don't have it up anymore) but he never would go into the big, beautiful plastic crate I got for him. I am not sure why, but I finally gave up on it, as there wasn't any need to accustom him to it, and wound up when I had a two-story house with two wire crates.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Dog's don't generalize well - even if you have the identical crate upstairs and downstairs, Loki may not see them as being the same and may still be fearful of the downstairs crate. Added to the problem is the downstairs crate is very different from the bedroom crate.

It might be easier if you bought an identical crate for downstairs, but you should accept that even though he is crate trained in the bedroom, you need to start from scratch to crate train downstairs. Be patient, go very slow and reward the teeniest of progress. 

Don't throw a treat far into the crate to get him to go inside - that's just too much too soon. Take baby steps. Reward him for going close - even if you have to make a little trail of treats to lead him. Then stop training. When he is going close, start the next step -reward him for getting his head close to the opening. At the next training session try to get a paw inside - give him a jackpot reward. Allow him to proceed slowly at his own speed. At some point he will want to go all the way in - it might be he will only need a few baby steps and then will make the leap of realization that this is just like his bedroom crate in which case you're done. Or he may need a lot of training to get to accept this new crate.

If you plan to take him other places, like a hotel room or staying with friends, where he will need to use a crate - you might need to train him again in each location until he finally understands "his crate" is a crate in any location.

I didn't see what you posted when I was typing this - you do plan to crate away from home - so you take into account that you might a little time to train him "crate" in a new location. Do take whatever pad or bedding you use in the crate with you so the crate smells and looks and feels like the one at home.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

patk said:


> how do you get him to go into his crate in the evening? if you use a key word, repeating it when you want him to go into the downstairs crate might help. also once he goes in, try sitting by the crate for awhile so he doesn't associate it with your leaving him. when you do get up to leave, leave an especially loved treat with him. might work.


So far, he's never gone in far enough that I could close the door, even if I wanted to, which I don't yet. I have, to this point, simply put in treats and toys to see if I could get him to explore it on his own. I'm hoping habituation will occur over time and I've been surprised that he's so resistant, but poodles are clever and he's probably thinking about the door closing and locking him in.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

Skylar said:


> Dog's don't generalize well - even if you have the identical crate upstairs and downstairs, Loki may not see them as being the same and may still be fearful of the downstairs crate. Added to the problem is the downstairs crate is very different from the bedroom crate.
> 
> It might be easier if you bought an identical crate for downstairs, but you should accept that even though he is crate trained in the bedroom, you need to start from scratch to crate train downstairs. Be patient, go very slow and reward the teeniest of progress.
> 
> ...


Thanks, there's some good advice here for sure. I have put things in at a varying distance and if he can get it without putting a paw in, he will. If it is any farther in, he may bark at it or, more usually, walk away. I haven't tried a trail of treats but I will and post my results.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Try Skylar's steps, but I also think perhaps that the plastic crate isn't so happy an idea because it is too closed in. For myself I prefer a crate that folds down for travel anyway and I travel with my poodles a lot! This time last year we were enjoying our almost two week road trip to Georgia for the AKC nationals. I would see what happens if you put him in the wire crate during the day to try dissect what it is that he doesn't like: going in during the day or going into the plastic crate.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Try Skylar's steps, but I also think perhaps that the plastic crate isn't so happy an idea because it is too closed in. For myself I prefer a crate that folds down for travel anyway and I travel with my poodles a lot! This time last year we were enjoying our almost two week road trip to Georgia for the AKC nationals. I would see what happens if you put him in the wire crate during the day to try dissect what it is that he doesn't like: going in during the day or going into the plastic crate.


What size wire crate do you use for travel? My current wire crate is too wide to fit through doorways so I need to fold it for any moving it about. The plastic crate is less wide but just as long.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Well now I don't actually use wire crates anymore since I have taught mine to be good in soft crates, but part of the advantage of both wire and soft crates is that they fold down. My dogs wear harnesses and are tethered in the back seat of the vehicle and the crates along with my other gear are folded up in the way back. As long as you have a wire crate with a divider I would make sure you think it will be the right size for your pup when he is grown.


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## GlennR (Nov 26, 2017)

I have a soft sided mesh crate too that I used for travel with my adult standard poodle when he was still with us. I can't use that for a while yet. Untrained pups and mesh don't mix well.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

GlennR said:


> I have a soft sided mesh crate too that I used for travel with my adult standard poodle when he was still with us. I can't use that for a while yet. Untrained pups and mesh don't mix well.


Like Catherine I'm using fabric crates because they fold so easily and are lightweight so I can take them to competitions/travel. My dog is secured in the car with a sleepypod travel harness.

You are right - until Loki has learned to respect his crate and stays it in quietly, your old soft sided mesh crate won't work. 

How do you secure him when he's in the car? If you are going to use the metal crate, you need one that is strong and structurally sound. However if you have another method for him to travel in the car, I would look into a folding metal crate. I've seen some that are very easy to open and fold closed for travel. Use that as your downstairs crate. It might be easier to train him to use that kind of crate instead of the plastic kind and when you travel he will have his own smells embedded in the crate which will comfort him and ease the transition to being in a strange place.


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