# questions on a standard puppy



## dt7624 (Apr 2, 2009)

Hi, I am thinking about a puppy from a breeder that the mother had 15 puppies but 10 were stillborn. I don't know much about newborn puppies but what would cause this and would it affect the other 5 puppies. What is a good birth weight for a standard. I can't imagine losing 10 puppies. Thanks, I appreciate any advice!


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## aestheticlie (Jun 28, 2009)

I don't know much about puppies either, but I think 15 is a realy high number for an amount of puppies. That could be the reason so many were still born. But that's just me..


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## Kingstontodd (Jul 15, 2009)

Thats is a lot of stillborn puppies. Did the mother have an infection. Thats a typical cause.


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## SECRETO (Aug 20, 2008)

I agree that fifteen is a very large litter and possibly momma having a infection could of been the cause. If the other 5 pups are healthy, playful and look good, I dont see why you shouldnt proceed. 

I recently had a boy named Sting and he was actually born stilborn. For some reason the breeder wanted to try and get him back. (he was the only one stillborn) She worked on him for a good few minutes and he ended up coming back to life and did very well. He looked just as healthy as all the other pups and man was he a stinker later on. Full of life!


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## mercymoon (Aug 29, 2008)

My grandparent have bred their miniature bitch twice and each time, there was one stillborn. This could have something to do with bad genetics, however the stud is now at the age where he can't make puppies anymore, Thank God. 

If the remaining puppies seem healthy and lively, I agree with Secreto and proceed but avoid breeding. 

Not a dog expert, just my opinion.


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## pmdavis (May 6, 2009)

What do you know about the breeder? 

1. Is she/he experienced? Do they have litters on a regular basis, but not so many that you would worry about the possiblity of she/he being a puppy mill.

2. Is she/he a backyard breeder? I purchased a puppy from a backyard breeder and she died an awful death before her second birthday. 

3. Did the breeder do all the necessary genetic testing?

4. Is the breeder well known in the area for good healty puppies?

5. What type of pedigree do the puppies have? Do they have a solid linage, with AKC Champions in their past. I don't know if you want a puppy for showing or not, but my experience is that if you go to a show breeder that the quality of the puppy and it's health is increased.

6. It looks like you live in the mid-west, but out here in the Pacific NW and surounding areas, there is a line of puppies that I would stay away from. My first spoo was from this line and she died an awfull sudden death. I was talking to a breeder out of Montana and she also had a spoo die a sudden death from this same line. Breeders in the area have told me that they shy away from the line. You might talk with local breeders and ask them to look at the pedigree to see if there is any "red flags" in the breeding.

7. How much are these puppies? Is the price to good to be true? I purchased my first puppy because the price was "right". This decision cost me in the long run. I paid over $9k trying to save her life. 

8. Have you done your research? I thought I had done my research when I bought my first spoo and realized later that I didn't do enough.


Good luck... Just because I have had one bad experience, I, myself, would probably not get a puppy from this litter, just because of the fact that 2/3's of the puppies were still born and something could be wrong. But I am probably a little more cautious than the average person.

Take care and do your research. I


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## dt7624 (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I recently lost my standard suddenly so I am really leery of everything. The mother and father both have AKC champions in their past and the father is a champion. The mother's greatgrandfather was my last dog's father and he was a champion. She said he is in the mother's pedigree twice which she said is line breeding. I'm not sure what that is but will look it up. The mother is only 41 lbs. The price is $1000 - $1200 and I haven't met her, only talked through email. I least she told me about the stillborn births. She said she had talked to 3 vets and they all agreed that it was because of such a large litter.
pmdavis, Is it possible for you to say the line that should be avoided or is it against the rules. Thanks!


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

dt7624 said:


> Thanks for all of the suggestions! I recently lost my standard suddenly so I am really leery of everything. The mother and father both have AKC champions in their past and the father is a champion. The mother's greatgrandfather was my last dog's father and he was a champion. She said he is in the mother's pedigree twice which she said is line breeding. I'm not sure what that is but will look it up. The mother is only 41 lbs. The price is $1000 - $1200 and I haven't met her, only talked through email. I least she told me about the stillborn births. She said she had talked to 3 vets and they all agreed that it was because of such a large litter.
> pmdavis, Is it possible for you to say the line that should be avoided or is it against the rules. Thanks!


I would never get a pup from someone who has had 10 still births....NE can cause a pup not to survive past 7 weeks, have the parents been tested for that?? You did not mention any testing that was done on either parent, I myself have had bad experiances like pmdavis, and would avoid speaking ill of any breeder on a public forum :quiet:, but there are breeders out there that claim to be "reputable" and may have Champion dogs, but are NOT ethical, I got 2 toys from a breeder who talked the talk but did not walk the walk, genetic testing past PRA was not done, she bred her bitches every heat starting at the first, these were not things I thought to ask about how many litters a year, how often do they breed each bitch and such. BOTH pups I got from her even with CH mom and dad had LCP.....She has since gotten 1 of them back as she was strictly a show prospect from her and she remained co-owner and the other we payed almost 3k to have surgery on her to repair her leg as well as have her spayed and pay the handler that SHE recommended whom did NOT tell me there was a problem. She had 5 Champions, NONE finished by her and if I were yo I would ask if she shows and finishers her dogs or if she has a handler do it. Not that ALL handlers are bad, but some are in it just for the money and you can hand them a PWD and they could probably finish it as a spoo LOL!!!! Pro handlers are PAID to finish ANY dog they have, and if they are not "honest" they will finish a "crap" dog so LOTS of red flags going up on this one for me, sorry if I offended anyone, but I would NOT get a dog from this breeder let alone this litter, even if the rest of the pups SEEM healthy. eace:


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## dt7624 (Apr 2, 2009)

Boy, this is really complicated! What is LCP and is NE the same as Neonatal Encephalopathy? The mother was tested for Neonatal encephalopathy, hips, thyroid, willebrands disease and some others. I'm going to look some of this up. I thought I was starting to know what to look for but guess not. Thanks again!


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## passion4poodles (Apr 11, 2009)

dt7624 said:


> Boy, this is really complicated! What is LCP and is NE the same as Neonatal Encephalopathy? The mother was tested for Neonatal encephalopathy, hips, thyroid, willebrands disease and some others. I'm going to look some of this up. I thought I was starting to know what to look for but guess not. Thanks again!


LCP (Legg-Calvé-Perthes disease) is in toys, Rare if at all in Standards, and yes NE is neonatal encephalopathy, it is ALOT of research....I am still learning lol, I have had several that I got and ended up altering and adopting out due to items such as a male toy that I purchased from a breeder (my first and ONLY male ever) was cryptorchid (only one testicle dropped) so, he had to be neutered to reduce his risk of testicular cancer..his new mommy is a member of the forum, another a female standard I got actually the same day from the same breeder (like I said, just learning and did not know better) had NO genetic testing done on the parents, ended up having to have 3 of her adult k9's removed because they came in VERY wrong and the 2 on bottom were growing into her palete and the upper one was putting ALOT of presure on the other teeth, so they all had to come out, she had a bone spur in her knee had to have Ortho surger, even after all that, I was like " she will still do great at agility! NOPE, she was diagnosed with hip displasia, neither parents were ofa'd....then the 2 toys I told you about lol....It is a learning process, and if you jump in feet first, you may find out you landed on your head like many of us lol! Be very diligent in your research and "interigation" of the breeders make sure you know as much as you can about the breed, the standard for the breed and all the genetic testing for the breed before you get one. Expecially if you want a healthy pup, and/or are looking to compete in the "dog games" with them. You should even make sure you know the Gender based disease's/afflictions that you are going to want to know about, like the cryptorchid for males and Addisons for females.


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## pmdavis (May 6, 2009)

dt7624 said:


> pmdavis, Is it possible for you to say the line that should be avoided or is it against the rules. Thanks!


I will send you private message for the line that my previous standard came from. I am hestant to name the line on a public forum, but do not have any problems giving it to you privately. 

This is a hard decision. When I was looking for my second poodle, I actually didn't do a lot of research on the actual poodle and lines that Roxy came from. But I knew the breeder and knew that she had a reputation in the Pacific NW that is outstanding, she is the new president of the Puget Sound Poodle Club. She had a puppy come available because someone couldn't take it after reserving it. I went that night to look at her and brought her home. It just felt right... maybe that is part of it... go with your gut feelings too.


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