# Caralot has white Moyen Female puppy



## kglad (May 10, 2014)

Hello Everyone!

I follow Caralot (Pekin, Indiana) on Facebook and they have a beautiful white Moyen poodle puppy available. She is turning 8 weeks old and loves her toys.

Caralot's FB page is at https://www.facebook.com/caralotpoodles?fref=ts, where they have pictures and other info about this puppy. 

I'd take her in a heartbeat if I didn't already have a 10 month old apricot poo. She's a cutie!

Kiera


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

I may be blind, because I didn't find anything about the puppy's parentage or expected size. And according to their website, Caralot breeds Miniatures, not Moyens. Or perhaps the their Facebook has limited publicity posts?


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm thinking that this is a Mini pup, as both sire and dame are Mini's, but it's possible that the pup may go oversized.

I do know that she's a cutie and that Julie thinks they're gorgeous.


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## kglad (May 10, 2014)

They breed both and show in AKC and UKC and have partis, phantoms, and solids.

They had a couple litters recently and I was mistaken on the WHITE FEMALE, she will indeed be a MINI in size. Parentage is given on FB using call names Georgia (a white mini champion, can be seen here Caralot Poodles - Our Girls) and Dexter (a parti champion, can be seen here Caralot Poodles - Our Boys).

HOWEVER, they DO have a BLACK MALE MOYEN-sized puppy available, estimated to be in that O/S Mini-ish range. He's detailed on their website here Caralot Poodles - Caralot Poodle Puppies.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

So if the black mini is within the 15-20" size range full grown, as predicted by the breeder, isn't that technically a standard in size?

Or, is it an oversized mini? Maybe that depends on whether both parents are registered as minis or as tandards or am I wrong here?

My girl is from 2 standard parents and is 20" and is considered a small, portable perfect to me, standard.

I thought that moyens are not really a recognized size in the US, or am I wrong here? I know that some people are trying to breed Moyens by breeding standard to mini and they are getting strangely proportioned dogs.

This whole moyen thing can be a bit confusing, no?

Viking Queen

P.s. I looked at her web site, maybe I am missing something, but could not find pedigrees on the parents of this black/moyen puppy. Sure would be nice to know if they are mixing standards and minis to get their "moyens"


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Yeah, there's not even parent sizes listed, let alone more complete pedigrees to see if the lines are consistent in size, if there's linebreeding, if there's FCI Medium lines in there or not, what colours there are (for predicting possibility of outcrops)...

Not wanting to paint devils on the wall, and I've seen plenty of USA breeders with no pedigrees on-site, but I'm just so used to Finnish breeders having three-four generations readily visible for each breeding dog and often for litters too.

AFAIK UKC and AKC don't even have publicly available pedigree/registry databases?


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

moyen is not a recognized size in the u.s. so from what i can tell anyone in the u.s "breeding" moyens is considered to be off the reservation - or at the very edge because the assumption is that there is deliberate breeding of standards with minis. so far, only one "moyen" breeder that i know of claims to be breeding from imported european moyen stock. haven't looked into the issue closely enough to have a clue how claimed moyens are being registered - if they are - with akc/ukc. there are folks emphasizing breeding of small standards, however. and oversize minis are still registered as minis.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I would want the U.S. breeder to be using European stock as the core of their program for me to consider them legitimate Moyens. Nothing wrong with a smaller sized SPOO or an over-sized mini, but I do consider it unethical to label those Moyens.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

We got our Fletcher from Caralot, and yes, he has both Mini and Standard in his pedigree.

We had a great experience with Julie and Rebecca at Caralot, and we are very pleased with our 19"/29lb boy. He is AKC registered as a Poodle, Variety is Standard. He is out of health tested parents, both of whom were in the same size range. Julie has been there for any questions I've ever had, she and I have corresponded many times and have had great discussions about food, vaccines, titers, exercise needs, etc. She's always trying to learn and grow, which I admire.

Caralot was breeding full sized standards, but as they get older the smaller sizes were more appealing.

I didn't have a problem with the mixing of the sizes when it's done responsibly bringing a large mini male to a small standard female. That's what they have done, although they are now into multi generations.

Some people have a problem with this, and probably consider our beautiful boy a mutt; that's your right.

I believe that there are some breeders of the 15"-20" size who are trying to work with the UKC and get the Medium Poodle recognized in the US. At least that's what I've read on at least one of the Moyen poodle FB groups I've joined. I believe that through this effort, going forward they will be discouraging the mixing of the mini/standard varieties, but I'm not part of the effort so don't have any details or further information.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I cannot quite see why breeding a healthy large mini to a healthy small standard with the aim of producing nice quality mid sized dog over a few generations should cause so much sniffiness - surely this is basically how all the different sizes originated?


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

The only reason I did not get a poodle from Caralot is because there was only one male in the litter I was waiting for and the color was not one that appealed to me and I did not want to wait for another litter to be born. I think Julie from Caralot is great and if a breeder is going to mix a mini and standard, she is doing it in the most responsible manner. Now that she has the sizes she wants, l don't think she plans to breed standards into the line any more. She now breeds miniatures and moyen-sized poodles. Yes, she uses the name "moyen" and her dogs are not from Europe, but she is using the name to describe the size instead of making up a new name. I personally can live with that.

If anyone is wanting a poodle weighing 18-30 lbs, Caralot is worth checking out.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

there are two interesting issues, imo. one is something that tp and others have pointed out in the past - increasing the likelihood of wrong proportions in the pups that increase the possibility of physical problems for the dog. but the more interesting (and perhaps sadder) one is the recent claim that toys and minis do not actually have the same genetic heritage as spoos. heaven knows how that is all going to be sorted out in the end, but it may explain why the list of potential genetic/health problems for spoos is so much longer.

i think there is at least one breeder in the u.s. who claims to be is breeding minis with moyens. it might be interesting if we also had info covering the genetic heritage of moyens from european stock.


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

I believe one of the reasons Caralot is not breeding standards anymore is because they felt standards had more health issues than minis and toys. She actually bred a very healthy small standard with a healthy oversized mini to breed a smaller "moyen" sized poodle. This helped to reduce the possibility of structural problems. 

One true moyen breeder is the US simply is not enough to meet the demand of people wanting this size poodle. I am glad that a breeder like Caralot exists.

Of course, I am just repeating what I have said before on this forum. I know I am in the minority along with people like Sparkyjoe.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i think using the term moyen is the sticking point - because moyen is a recognized european variety (at least historically). i know a number of folks have come to pf saying they have a moyen breeder in mind and have been dismayed to learn that the breeder is, in fact, crossing standards and minis - probably not as successfully as caralot, either. lots of people want small standards. if that's what one is successfully breeding, seems reasonable to say so. on the other hand, i don't believe anyone would call caralot's dogs mutts, either. a poodle born of poodle parents is a poodle (even toys and minis, now known to not have the same genetic heritage as spoos).


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

I've always tried to identify Fletcher as being "Moyen-sized" not an actual, European Moyen.

Speaking of Fletcher, here he is, fresh from the Groomer...

















As for the black, moyen-sized pup that is listed as available at Caralot, I believe he is a half-brother to our Fletcher, out of the same mother.


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## Poodlerunner (Jul 4, 2014)

sparkyjoe said:


> I've always tried to identify Fletcher as being "Moyen-sized" not an actual, European Moyen.
> 
> Speaking of Fletcher, here he is, fresh from the Groomer...
> 
> ...



Fletcher is so cute 

pr


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## MiniPoo (Mar 6, 2014)

patk said:


> i think using the term moyen is the sticking point - because moyen is a recognized european variety (at least historically). i know a number of folks have come to pf saying they have a moyen breeder in mind and have been dismayed to learn that the breeder is, in fact, crossing standards and minis - probably not as successfully as caralot, either. lots of people want small standards. if that's what one is successfully breeding, seems reasonable to say so. on the other hand, i don't believe anyone would call caralot's dogs mutts, either. a poodle born of poodle parents is a poodle (even toys and minis, now known to not have the same genetic heritage as spoos).


If I were one of.the breeders of moyen sized poodles, I would probably use the name "medium" to describe that size. I mean isn't that what moyen means? Medium would be for poodles 15"-20". Standard would be over 20".

So I wish in the US we had toy, miniature, medium, and standard. 

I am perfectly happy with my in-size miniature, but I think people should have a clear choice of sizes without having to depend on a breeder happening to have an oversized mini or undersized standard.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

What I find crazy, is that there is no ceiling for the size of a standard. There have been posts that have suggested conformation judges prefer the smaller-sized SPOO's, so between that and demand maybe more smaller SPOO's will become available. I would also like to understand more about how the "official" Moyens came about and how long this size has been recognized abroad.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Mfmst said:


> I would also like to understand more about how the "official" Moyens came about and how long this size has been recognized abroad.


The size always existed, and was bred for smallness to create the miniature size, which apparently was mixed with Maltese ancestors to get some serious tininess going on for what would become the Toy category much much later. Breed organizations and kennel clubs and pedigrees and purebreeding became a thing only after Poodles had a wide variety of size.

The oldest Poodle club is the UK one, est. 1876. Germany comes right after at 1893. UK club combined their standards for corded and fluffy Poos as late as 1910. Two French clubs were formed in 1922 and they merged in 1936.

Here's some nicely cited info from the Swedish Wikipedia article on Poodles.
* I'll assume this part is mostly about mainland Europe
* Poodle breeding began to be organized at the end of the 1800s, and two size categories were established: large (42 cm or taller) and small.
* in 1932 the small category was divided into two: dwarf (miniature (below 35 cm) and small (called medium since 1956)
* in 1936 the upper limit of mediums was raised to 45 cm
* in 1988 a new category was made: toy, for dogs under the 28 cm minimum height of the dwarf.

Meanwhile in the UK:
* in 1904 there was only one size category (30-60 cm), and the minimum height was raised to 38 cm
* dogs under 38 cm were re-admitted in 1911
* minimum height of Poodles was lowered to 28 cm in 1957
* you'll notice this part fails to explain how no size categories became three

*sigh* all I want is a good source book for the history of the damn breed! Most I can gather on the Net is "curly retrievers, black or white or sometimes piebald", then "fluffy pooch for the madam & the mademoiselle", then "clubs formed, one to two size categories, separate categories for cords and fluffs", then "three to four size categories, only solids qualified".


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

And none of it explains WHY France ended up listed as country of origin by FCI and now has control of the breed standard... 

I think we all agree that the standard was a medium sized dog originally, there were many small white fluffy breeds in existence at about the same time the poodle was being standardized. And somehow we ended up with 3 or 4 sizes of our rather delightful breed.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

The toy poodle register was only closed in the UK in the 1970s - until then breeders could register pups as either toy or miniature depending on their estimated size as adults. Once the register was closed only those pups with both parents already registered as toys were accepted. But it is all a human construct - poodle-type dogs in lots of colours and sizes were around before the craze for long pedigrees and dog shows started, and given the popularity of cross breeding poodles at the moment no doubt even more poodle-type dogs will be around long after all the breed registries are a footnote in history!


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

spindledreams said:


> And none of it explains WHY France ended up listed as country of origin by FCI and now has control of the breed standard...


Probably the largest numbers of Poodles and the highest quality breeding was found in France at that time? Which is pretty ironic, considering most other (European) FCI countries haven't imported Poodles from there for a while because tail docking is still legal in France, so....... omg shocker.... curly and/or overly long tails abound!

Another thing that is less well known is that the FCI Poodle standard has hind dewclaws or evidence of such as a disqualifying fault, yet in many countries, AFAIK in the Baltic and Nordic countries especially, breeders and showers and judges don't give a rat's ass about hind dewclaws. Sulo's sire has nice sturdy dewclaws on every leg and just finished his CIB (international champion). It's all but an official guideline to ignore that part of the standard. What's considerable is I haven't heard of a dog DQ'd for having hind dewclaws in here even if the judge was Italian, Russian, or Japanese...

Apparently the presence of hind dewclaws was/is considered a sign of mixed breeding somewhere in Europe. (Wild guess: France)


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

LOL that is really odd about the hind dewclaws as France is famous for its breeds that require double dewclaws on the hind legs... 


We will probably never know how it happened but I do wonder with all the breed reassignments going on if maybe it is time to give the poodle breed back to Germany. It makes a lot more sense then giving Tibetan breeds to China...


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## Desiree (Feb 14, 2010)

peccan said:


> *sigh* all I want is a good source book for the history of the damn breed! Most I can gather on the Net is "curly retrievers, black or white or sometimes piebald", then "fluffy pooch for the madam & the mademoiselle", then "clubs formed, one to two size categories, separate categories for cords and fluffs", then "three to four size categories, only solids qualified".


Have you read this book? The Poodle Complete Anthology. It contains the collected British writings on the history of the Poodle from the earliest sources. That's the best history I've been able to find so far.


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