# New puppy having seizures :(



## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

So I got a standard parti poodle from a breeder about a month ago his name is kratos and he's 6 months old anyway on last Sunday he had 3 seizures and we had to rush him to the emergency vet. They did blood tests and his sugar and organ function were all normal they put him on lifelong seizure meds to stop them but they make him lethargic its really hard cause theres no way of knowing the cause of this without getting a ct scan which can cost upwards of 1500 also the breeder offers a genetic guarantee but the vet says it's very hard to prove this is genetic I'm soo confused I'm really worried I'm not going to be able to afford all this medication and testing if anyone has any advice please let me know


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

I'm surprised your vet put your puppy on medication at his young age. My daughter's standard poodle was having seizures when she was a puppy. We weren't aware that she was having them at first, it was by chance that we witnessed one. My daughter took Meau to the vet and his advice was to wait and watch - he explained there was no way he'd put her on meds at her age unless the seizures were debilitating. She had them sporadically and we never really found a cause, but after she was spayed, she had one; maybe two more and then hasn't had one since - she's 2 1/2 years old now so it's been a couple of seizure free years with no meds!

All we ended up spending was the one vet office call for him to examine her and then advise us to wait and watch - he did ask us to redord any future seizures, time, how long they lasted, etc. and if they escalated or got worse he'd reevaluate. You might want to get another opinion about all the meds, tests, etc. and see if this is really necessary at your boy's age.

Good luck and keep us posted!!


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## Dallasminis (Feb 6, 2011)

Well, I don't know any medical info to help you but I am praying for your pup and visualizing health for him. I am glad he has you in this frightening time, thank you for loving him.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

The vet said normally they wouldn't put them on meds at his age but since he had 3 within 24hrs lasting over a minute they had to I just want to know if anyone thinks I should see if the breeder will help even though I can't prove it's genetic it's unlikely it's from anything else the dog is not what I was told he was either he's extremely skittish he acts like a wild animal I caught outside and decided to make my pet I don't know if I should try to get a replacement puppy since he has a genetic warranty if you sold a dog to someone and this happened would you replace it


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*seizures....*

All of these health issues in poodles make me want to cry.

Seizures are super tough to work up and diagnose and often the cause is never known. Sometimes seizures are a symptom of other disorders, sometimes they are caused by an enviromental trigger, or an injury and sometimes... they are genetic. Most of the time, we never know for sure. On Poodle Health Registry, the category for registering seizures.. is just that "Seizures", not "Epilepsy"...etc. I believe that one of the most helpful hints in determining genetic vs non genetic is the prevalence of seizure history in the line. For example Vic (poor Vic, I use her for an example way to often!) has seizures. A three quarter sibling.. has seizures. One of the three quarter sibs offspring has seizures. Three of Vic's offspring have (had) seizures. There are more relatives.. when you lay it all out, the family is nightmarish for seizures. BUT.. guess what... only one person has ever bothered to register those seizures with PHR. Of the dogs I just listed, right now only Vic is listed (one of her pups will be soon.. that was a glitch that it's not) as having seizures. 

I must say that I would question the medication based on seizures only during a 24 hour period... but I'm not a vet.. that's not intended to be vet advice.

IF I had a dog who was seizing.. this is what I would do:
CRITICAL THING: Video a seizure if you have a video (cell phone?) handy. That can help the vets determine what part of the brain the electrical abnormalities are based in. If you can't video, once everyone is in a safe place, take notes. keep track of leg movement (which ones, how..stiff.. paddleing...) the length of time of the seizure...etc.
Figure out what you need to do during a seizure to keep yourself and your dog safe.

Vet visit/appropriate labwork (sounds as if you have done that)

and the most important suggestion I have for you is this....

Contact Dr Barbara Licht at Florida State University. She is not only incredibly kind hearted and compassionate... she knows the ins and outs of canine epilepsy better than any veterinarian I have ever dealt with. Seriously.
Dr. Barbara G. Licht

I''m fortunate in that Vic rarely seizes and I don't keep her on seizure medication. When she does seize, sometimes it's random as far as I can tell... but other times there are triggers involved. So far her two triggers are major stress (she's been attacked by other dogs on two occasions, both resulting in seizures) and.. Dairy Queen Hot Fudge. She seizes within a few minutes of eating it. I know, I know.. everyone is groaning and saying "You idiot.. that's chocolate it will kill her.. what on earth are you thinking?!?" I'm thinking that Vic is 1) and incredible quick and talented food thief, 2) Vic has eaten small amounts of all sorts of chocolate all of her life without incident.. and still does. It's just the DQ stuff that gets her and it wasn't until the THIRD time in a row that it happened that I finally said..well "Duh!" 3) Vic has been living on borrowed time for years. If she wants chocolate..she can have it... as long as it didn't come from DQ.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I asked the breeder if there's any history of seizures and she said none that she knows of now she did say that after he had got his rabies shot before she shipped him to me he had a little episode of foaming at the mouth but just figured it was a reaction to the rabies shot I'm just worried cause the vet said once I start the medication if I stop it causes more seizures it's just hard cause I'm not sure I can afford any more major problems I'll definitely look into that vet and see if I can get some help


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Dr Licht is not a veterinarian. She's a human psychologist, who just happens to have spent more time in focused study on canine seizures than most canine vets who specialize in neuro issues do. She is very, very good, very knowledgable, will reply to emails and... won't send you a bill. I try not to abuse her kindness, have my questions ready for her. I suspect she may have some standardized canine info that she may share as well as answering individual questions. I promise that you will never regret contacting her.....


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Most breeders are not going to admit that there are seizures in the lines. Sounds like you are in California.. where there are puppy lemon laws and you may be able to get your money back (if you want to return the pup). IF the breeder admitted to seizures in her bloodlines.. well.. then she'd be giving you grounds to say that the seizures could be genetic... she probably isn't interested in refunding your money, so she's got ample reason to deny seizures history (if there is one). 
The average "breeding life" of a breeder...according to OFA is around 5 years. People get into breeding and get out again. There are a whole lot of breeders out there who are totally clueless as to what health issues are in the bloodlines. All too often breeder's aren't doing any actual research into the health in their poodles lines. They simply take the word of the person they got THEIR poodles from "no health issues in these lines". You may want to see if you can track down any littermates to your poodle, or your poodle's aunts, uncles, cousins or any person familiar with the dogs in your dogs pedigree. 

How are you doing with your boy behaviorally? Is he settling down for you.. or still a wildchild?


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I'm in ca but the breeder is in Ohio I don't know if that matters. But the breeder I got him from had his whole line the parents grandparents and great grandparents even the great great grandparents she said there isn't a history she also kept his brother and sister and said no problem but there's no way of knowing the truth I guess there are at least 5 other kennels I found that use her dogs in their breeding so I assumed she was good the only other theory I have besides genetic is something bad happened to him during shipping when I picked him up he had peed and threwup on himself and had a popped blood vessel in his eye which I figured to be stress but there's no way of knowing if he was dropped or something which i cant imagine signs showing up 3 weeks later but the breeder did say he had a reaction to his rabies too before he came I don't know. But behaviorally he is terrible we can't even reach for him without him bolting it takes me 15 min to corner him and get his leash on then he'll rear up like a wild horse, any sudden movements and he bolts the plus side he's curious and comes up to us and will occasionally let us pet him it's really hard to try to brush him it takes forever to corner him and hold him for it once you get him he'll usually settle down in a couple minutes but it's ridiculous I gotta take him back to the vet next week I'm gonna get another opinion and see but he's just got some major issues I just wanted a flashy competition dog I really don't have that much $ and it took me a while to save to buy the "perfect" dog it's just so disappointing


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## mandyand casey (Jan 12, 2011)

Had you just got him another set of shots recently Did anything change in the house A walk where someone could have treated their lawn I would rather do a wait and see as well then start meds Sounds very scary my daughter at about 9 had one xmas morning they did all these tests and found nothing and then never had them again and we figured it was something she reacted to from the feast the night before.


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## apriljean80 (Aug 23, 2010)

So sorry to hear about this. I had an aussie that had terrible seizures that began when he was around 1. It was so hard to watch him have those seizures, in our experience the meds didn't really control his seizures at all even at the highest dose our vet felt was safe. I truly hope you can get your pups seizures under control. 
One thought on the foaming at the mouth and the vomiting / peeing in the crate. My dog had a few seizures that were what I THINK called focal seizures (most of his were grand mal) The few he had that were the focal seizures he looked like he was chewing and foamed at the mouth. Also, the first indication we had that something was wrong was him peeing/pooping in his crate when he had been potty trained for nearly a year. Again, hope you can get this under control for you and your pup!


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

Nope nothing changed I've only had him less than a month so it's a change of scenery but everytime he had one he was sleeping so there didn't seem to be a trigger I just don't want it to happen again it was so scary plus I have a 4 year old son and the vet said during seizure they can clamp down on something that was hard to explain to my son when it happened he was devasted I think he is now tramutized by the whole thing. Another fact when I got him I noticed he had a tick on his head I removed it no swelling nothing could this be the cause I told the vet and along with the seizure meds they put him on a 30 day course of antibiotics just to make sure


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

Yea he is horrible to crate train he pees and poops in it also and just non stop barking I mean most dogs give up after a while he just barks the whole time and chews the bars he's already bent the front and chipped his k9 tooth


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## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I would not only post some of the pedigree here- there are fantastic people here who can magically read pedigree's & trace history. It is amazing how they do it. I am trying to research my Mini's pedigree & it is very hard. Also without fail register with PHR- Poodle Health Registry. Put in ALL the data that you have, the pedigree, color, breeder, size, health issues etc.... this helps all poodle owners. The more people know then the better it is for everyone to make informed choices.

As I said I am trying to track down Louisa's pedigree & it is so hard since only 2 dogs in 3 generations are registered. I though am trying to figure out if my dog is an Oversized Toy or if there were Mini's in the line.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

His pedigree is on poodlepedigree.com just search under- cherdon's kratos god of war It goes up to 5 generations I think


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Yaddaluvpoodles has given you the best advice if you plan on keeping the puppy and working through his seizures.



> Contact Dr Barbara Licht at Florida State University. She is not only incredibly kind hearted and compassionate... she knows the ins and outs of canine epilepsy better than any veterinarian I have ever dealt with. Seriously.
> Dr. Barbara G. Licht


I have a 6 year old standard who experiences sporadic seizures, and who has on occasion had 2 or 3 at a time, usually a Grand Mal followed by less intense ones. He is one of those dogs with no explanation regarding the cause of the seizures. Our vet recommended not medicating him as his seizures are irregular and infrequent (less than once a month).

I did an enormous amount of research and though not a great deal in relation to young dogs, some information that might be relevant to your case is that:

1 - vaccines can cause seizures
2- injury/blow to the head/ear problems can cause seizures (perhaps during shipping)
3 - marked personality change in dogs can occur as a result of seizures, these changes can be permanent or temporary (occurring immediately after seizure but wearing off as the dog stabilizes). It sounds to me that you may have permanent damage if the dog is so frightened, especially in view of the fact that this is happening during the formative months of the puppies life
4 - Brain damage can occur as a result of seizures.

Judging from your posts, I would recommend returning the pup at the breeders expense, it's heartbreaking and hard to consider doing, but it sounds like it might be a financial and emotional strain that your may not be willing to bear.

I'm sorry for you experience and wish you luck with whatever decision you make.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Being a bit frustrated here... third time I've tried to reply and I've lost the replies without them posting.... here goes again...

I used to tell my puppy people that they needed to really think about whether or not they wanted one of my puppies as the average life expectancy of a standard poodle is longer than the average marriage in the USA... so they needed to put more time, thought and care into the decision making process then they did in choosing their spouse <VBG>.

I understand that you just put a big hunk of money into obtaining Kratos. He is a gorgeous boy. But now would probably be a really good time to stop and think about what's going on with him and decide whether or not you are in it for the long haul.. it sounds like he is going to need a whole lot of skilled training before he will be able to function even as a pet. He sounds absolutely terrified to death of everything. If you are unsure.. it would probably be better for everyone if he were rehomed sooner, rather than later. You haven't really mentioned wanting to rehome/return him... but it just sounds like there are some huge issues and so I wanted to throw this out as food for thought only. Would his breeder be willing to take him back? Are there any terms in the contract that specify what has to be done with him if you choose not to keep him? Would the breeder be willing to pay for his return? Would the breeder be willing to help rehome him, or would she allow him to be placed in a rescue?

I would really encourage you to tether him to you while you are at home. In addition, wear a fanny pack with some sort of super great treat in it that he really likes. Don't try to make him take treats from your hand at this point, just toss them gently on the floor in front of him and let him pick them up... or not. He may be too stressed at first to take treats like this (or he may not be food motivated), but it is still helpful to offer the treat. Try really hard not to put him into a situation where you are chasing him. That just reinforces for him that when people are coming his way... he needs to run the other way.. fast. Keep that treat bag handy. Everytime he does something.. no matter how small it is.. that is a desireable behavior reward him! Even if it's just turning his head in your direction, or taking a step in your direction.

I would also encourage you (if you aren't familiar with this already) to learn clicker training. It is an ideal training method for dogs with anxiety like Kratos.

re: crating... poor boy! Sounds like his worst nightmare.. he probably got chased, nabbed, shoved into a little tiny jail and can't get out (ok.. trying to put it in the dogs perspective). He's never learned that a crate can be a serene sanctuary.. instead, it's terrifying for him and he's out of control in it. If there are any other SAFE options, I would not crate him for now. If there aren't any other options, well.. he's going to learn to be a "crate breaker" really quick.... and then you won't be able to keep him in. IF you have to crate him, consider reinforcing the door of the crate. Fasten some sort of bar/branch/stick/ securely to the crate door, about 4 inches from the bottom. It needs to extend past the opening on both sides of the door.. and be able to slide so that you can remove it in an instant if you need to. Fasten it in a way that Kratos will not hurt himself on the fasteners. This will keep him from pulling the crate gate inside of the crate and getting out. But truly.. if he's that upset in a crate... well....

There is a wealth of experience, and knowledge on this group. If you decide to keep him, USE this group as much as you can. It will help. There may be differing opinions/advice on certain situations.. because not all dogs and humans are the same. What works like a charm for one person/dog.... is a total failure for the next. So sometimes it takes finding what works.

I looked up Kratos Pedigree on PHR and it's not there yet. His mom's pedigree is there. Here is a link to her pedigree so that you can take a look at the reported health issues:

PHR Pedigree Database

His dad's pedigree isn't on there yet either, but one of his dads littermates is.. so the information will still apply. Here is a link to it as well:

PHR Pedigree Database

Good luck to you and Kratos


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I've thought about returning him but I have a genetic warranty for a replacement pup that's it but to prove this is genetic is very hard I've tried the treats everything you mentioned, teathering to me in the house doesn't work cause my other dogs get in the way he has to be crated cause he's destructive and tries to go thru the window it's like I caught a coyote and tried to make it my pet


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

Again, you've been offered some wonderful and helpful ideas to help you cope with your puppy.

Have you contacted the breeder and specifically asked to return the puppy? If so, and he/she has refused, perhaps your best option would still be to re-home the pup to someone who can incorporate Yaddaluvpoodles' suggestions. Otherwise you really are opening yourself to potential heartache, this baby sounds like a special needs pup.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Medication and seizures.*



Randi6567 said:


> So I got a standard parti poodle from a breeder about a month ago his name is kratos and he's 6 months old anyway on last Sunday he had 3 seizures and we had to rush him to the emergency vet.


Dear Randi6567;

Some dogs have a low threshold for seizures. Puppies are more apt to have a lower threshold than adult dogs. 6 months is young for seizures in Standard Poodles.

If this was *my dog* I would put him on the medication. The reasoning behind this is the closer together the seizures the *higher* the chances of *more* seizures!

Although the vet said the medication was lifelong it does not have to be. When the puppy is controlled - by this I mean *no* seizures for *3 months* - he can be weaned off the medication. 

I have not read about your puppy except for on this list but again, if he was mine, he would wear a 6 foot long leash at all times. (I would use the cheapest ones possible and not get mad if he chews on it.) Then no one will have to corner him, you just step on the leash and reel him in.

If you have only had him a month I would return him to his breeder. His breeder would have the best chance to figure out what is wrong with him. Even if you have to pay for the shipping again it will be cheaper than the vet bills would be. Good luck.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

Thanks everyone for such great advice I've decided I'm not going to keep kratos but I talked to his breeder and she is willing to send me a replacement puppy BUT she doesn't want kratos back so now what I thought I would ship him back and she ships me a new pup and that was that so now I guess I gotta find him a home I was thinking about contacting my local standard poodle rescue I live in Los Angeles if anyone knows of a goo organization to take him. Is this weird don't breeders normally want them back now I'm confused all over again


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## plumcrazy (Sep 11, 2009)

That kind of ticks me off just a bit (a rather large bit!!) All respectable breeders should be willing to take back ANY of their puppies for ANY reason, even if it's just to euthanize the puppy as unplaceable - now you face the challenge of finding someone willing to take a special needs puppy - and that's not easy!

I wish I were closer, I would take him and work with him! We've been through the seizure things with Meau and when I managed the humane society here, we had several dogs with epilepsy so I'm familiar with the handling of seizure dogs. I've also fostered other undersocialized dogs and by the time they left my zoo, you'd never know they had issues previously.

I will pray you find a palatable solution for your problem - I'm very discouraged by your breeder's decision not to take her puppy back, though...

If you ever want to send him to North Dakota and can find a way to get him here - my offer to take him stands.

Barb


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I will honestly think about that he's pretty big so shipping wouldn't be cheap but if I can't find another solution I will take you up on that offer as much as I'd hate to put him through shipping again now I have more stress on me trying to figure out a good place for him


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## lavillerose (Feb 16, 2011)

To be totally honest, I would not take a replacement puppy from this breeder either. From what you're describing, it sounds like many of his problems started at the breeders in the first place, on top of a very bad shipping experience. And knowing the breeder will not take him back is a major red flag. They don't sound like good people who treat their puppies well at all.

I would try to find a rescue organization to take Kratos, but honestly, don't take another puppy from that breeder. I don't know what to do about the payment, that depends on what was in your puppy contract and if you legally have an avenue to get your money back. But from his flighty behavior and continuing health problems and a breeder who won't take their own babies back (any good, caring breeder will do so, no matter what the problem is!), that breeder is highly suspect and very untrustworthy. It would not be surprising if a replacement pup from them would come with the same issues.

Find a better breeder, please. CA has many good poodle people, and it is far better to visit the breeder's facilities yourself in person and know for certain that your puppy, and all their dogs have come from a good situation.

Good luck.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Randi6567 said:


> Thanks everyone for such great advice I've decided I'm not going to keep kratos but I talked to his breeder and she is willing to send me a replacement puppy BUT she doesn't want kratos back so now what I thought I would ship him back and she ships me a new pup and that was that so now I guess I gotta find him a home I was thinking about contacting my local standard poodle rescue I live in Los Angeles if anyone knows of a goo organization to take him. Is this weird don't breeders normally want them back now I'm confused all over again


This is not normal if the breeder is reputable! I think this is disgusting and puts you in one helluva predicament. Chances are a replacement pup will come from the same background, so I would be very wary taking another puppy from these people. The fact they do not want the pup back speaks volumes!


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It sounds very strange for a breeder not to take a puppy back. The only explanation would be that it is a puppy mill type breeder. I would not take another puppy from them as it could have other health problems, but insist that they give you your money back and send the puppy back to them. Do they health test their dogs? 

I am so sorry you are having this issue. There are so many good breeders with great poodle puppies in California where you could visit the home, the parents and the puppies. You should be able to get your money back from this breeder if they are at ALL ethical. If they are not ethical then you should report them. 

If you want a parti poodle you need to be careful because there are many people getting on the bandwagon just trying to make money on the newest thing, kind of like how people were asking $2000 for a mix between a labrador and a poodle! There are good parti breeders who are trying to get parti's recognized by the AKC, but many who are not. 

For the record, I would not keep the puppy either, as hard as that sounds. You would be asking for a lifetime of expensive vet care and heart ache for him.  

Please try again to get a healthy puppy. There are so many nice ones that would love you.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I'm pretty sure she's not a puppy mill her dogs are used by a lot of other parti breeders I did look around for a while for my dog and she was pretty reptuble after kratos started having issues I started emailing other people with her dogs all with no problems all her dogs have eyes and hips tested she's had his parents grand parents great gps great great gps and great great great gps and said all with no problems so I don't know what it is but I'm pretty sure it's not a puppy mill she might not b as great as I thought but in my contract it says I can only get a replacement no monetary refunds


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I am sorry about not being able to return the puppy. Since you live in California you may be able to still return the puppy under the California laws. Why will she NOT take a sick puppy back? That is really wrong of her. I can understand not taking the puppy back after you had him a year or something, but not when he is so young. I am sorry you signed such a contract. 

Here is the California puppy lemon law. You are entitiled to compensation for the vet bills and the return of your money:

here is the CA puppy lemon law:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/pets/lemon_ca.html

Here is the technical aspects of it:
http://www.theanimalcouncil.com/files/Polanco_Lockyer_2002.pdf

Ohio does not currently has a lemon law, but there is a petition pending for such a law. Their pending law is not nearly as strict as the California one and says they can just give you another puppy- sheesh.
http://www.petitiononline.com/opll2003/petition.html


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

Yea I looked into the ca puppy lemon law but what I got from it was that the seller had to be in ca idk now I just want to find what's best for kratos maybe it's better the breeder didn't take him back this way I can know exactly what happens to him even though it makes it harder for me


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I looked at the pedigree out of curiosity. 
The thing that flashed at me big time on the dams pedigree was a COI at over 24%. That is a HUGE coefficient of inbreeding and leads to high strung, nervous dogs with multiple health problems. She should never have been bred. As an example, my puppy has a COI under 3.5% and most reputable breeders go for a COI under 5%. I don't mean to be harsh and feel so sorry for your predicament and wish you the best, but I wanted to point that out so maybe someone else can learn from it.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

COI's are a real bone of contention on this forum. Some believe it does not make any difference how high it is. We shoot for pups with COI's of less than 7%. But, I know of other breeders who have breeding dogs as high as 42%. I am with you...the lower the better in my eyes. But, there will be others who will argue that is doesn't matter.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Why do you think it is illegal to marry your cousin in the US and most countries? Inbreeding compounds hereditary disorders that all of us carry. Look to the 'blue bloods' in past history. Hybrid vigor is not a farce.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

outwest said:


> . If someone knows one iota about genetics, they wouldn't even question it.


Arreau is exactly right. Inbreeding is a hugely controversial issue...EVEN amongst geneticists. There are lots and lots of theories, but not a lot of known facts. Even with the new MHC research and identification of MHC haplotypes, we don't know what each of those haplotypes does. Just because something is diverse doesn't make it good. Low COI's absolutely do NOT guarantee health. They don't guarantee that a poodle won't end up affected with a genetic illness.

As I said, there are lots and lots of theories on breeding, inbreeding, what COI range seems to be the most optimal.. for whatever reason (health, uniformity, etc). Many breeders have different opinions and make different choices from other breeders. No one is going to know who's right and who's wrong for another couple of decades. It takes time for breeding strategies to play out. One thing I know for sure is this:

If all breeders supported and utilized the same breeding strategies and choices we would do extreme, if not irrecoverable damage to the breed. 

When breeders have differing priorities, it actually supports genetic diversity.

IF a low COI was a quick fix, it would be super easy to outcross to a mini for one generation. So long as there are no ancestors in common between the two parents (standard and mini), it will drop the COI to 0% for their offspring. 

I, personally, prefer lower COI's.. but that's just one very small piece of what I look at and that's my personal preference. I believe that each breeder has the right and responsibility to do what they think is best, and each puppy buyer has the right to choose what breeder they obtain their dogs from. There is no breeder in the world, good or bad, who wants to produce a dog with a health issue. Anytime there is a poodle in trouble or in need, on the opposite end of the leash you will usually find a human in trouble or in need.. and frequently two, the owner and the breeder. Breeder bashing doesn't do any good, it just makes ugly situations uglier. It doesn't help the owner, the breeder or the opposite end of the leash.. the poodle. It stirs up a lot of emotions and energy. It wastes a lot of time, but ultimately, when everything is said and done, it hasn't done anything productive.. just wasted people's life energy. I wish that there was a way to turn situations like these into winning situations but when people are busy pointing fingers and condemning, it brings positive solutions or any discussion of them to an abrupt halt. Everyone of us is human, not one of us is perfect. If we all stopped judging and condemning everyone's actions and started asking ourselves what we can do to help... the world would sure be a nicer place for all of us as well as our poodles


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

What you say is mostly true, but since the breeder will not take the puppy back, it doesn't make them look very ethical and it does open them up to criticism. I also find it hard to believe the breeder did not know of the behavior issues with this puppy and at least let the buyer know that this was going to be a high needs puppy. There are puppy lemon laws in many states to stop unethical breeders from selling ill dogs for a reason. It is those breeders that cast a shadow on the many great breeders out there.

I have studied too much genetics to ever believe inbreeding is a good thing. I also think anyone who is breeding dogs should fully test their dogs, which this breeder does not. In the end, I feel sad that someone did not get the healthy, sweet poodle puppy that they wanted.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

I'm coming in late here, but please test for tick disease! Tick borne disease CAN cause seizures, and, more commonly, personality changes!
Carole


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

outwest said:


> I also think anyone who is breeding dogs should fully test their dogs, which this breeder does not.


Just curious, but how do you know this? I didn't read this in the OP's thread.


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

If the breeder doesn't want to and won't take this puppy back (which is really terrible and not a sign of a responsible breeder), it's probably better that you find him a new home. Who knows what she would do with a sick puppy she doesn't want to deal with.

I just searched for So Cal Poodle rescue and the website is closed. That is so bizarre! The So Cal Poodle Club website is also gone. Does anyone know what is going on with that club?


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I was trying to find it too I can't seem to find a poodle specific rescue in LA I'm taking him to the vet tomorrow I'm most likely gonna test him for tick diseases depending on the cost I really don't want to keep investing more money into him since I'm not keeping him but I'll keep doing what's best for him till I find him a home


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*What can we do to help?*



outwest said:


> What you say is mostly true, but since the breeder will not take the puppy back, it doesn't make them look very ethical and it does open them up to criticism.
> 
> Every person, breeder or not, poodle owner or not can be criticized for their management in one way or another. Every last one. It's really easy to stand back and point fingers, without fully knowing all sides of the story. I had a super bad lesson in this within the last year. There is a breeder I had met and liked, and was later informed of all of her shady, unethical breeding practices by her former partner. I believed the former partner. For years, anytime that breeder's name would come up, I would gently try to guide people elsewhere.. and sometimes.. not so gently. And then.. I found out that the person I had trusted had given me misinformation to a whole lot of other people. This breeder has been burned at the stake of public opinion, sometimes with me fanning the flames. I have apologized to that breeder, but the damage to her reputation has been done. I've learned my lesson well. I see a lot of people trying to help other people and that's a good thing. But unless one is personally involved in a situation and I do mean personally.. not a friend of.. even if it's someone you trust implicitly, do not act on that information. Unknowingly, I was doing way more harm than good. That's a really bad thing to see when one looks in the mirror. So.. I guess as my way of helping others, I'm sharing this
> I also find it hard to believe the breeder did not know of the behavior issues with this puppy and at least let the buyer know that this was going to be a high needs puppy. We don't know the circumstances or situation regarding this pup. No need for the owner to answer.. but was she told that the dog had issues and it turned out to be more than she could handle? Are the behaviors a sudden onset that really weren't present at the breeders? Was the pup some how injured or traumatized during shipment (injury bad enough to trigger seizures as well as behavioral changes?) We can all find it hard to believe, or not. We all know what we personally believe.. but we don't KNOW. Because we don't know, we have a few choices... we can ignore the situation, we can badmouth the breeder (and hope that we aren't wrong) and not only are there long term repercussions from that, please remember again that no breeder wants to produce a pup with health issues. There are puppy lemon laws in many states to stop unethical breeders from selling ill dogs for a reason.Puppy lemon laws are out there for a reason, but in some states, they hold breeders accountable for things that are out of their control. It makes perfect sense to hold breeder's accountable for things that there are a definitive genetic test for.. in poodles that would be vWD, NE, DM... but in many other conditions, where there is may be an environmental component, is it fair to hold the breeder fully accountable, without holding the owner accountable. There are a lot of different sides/possible debates to that question. A couple of examples: If a breeder has xrayed parents, with passing scores and an owner buys a pup, then keeps that pup crated or with limited activity much of the time and feeds it junk food.. should the breeder be held accountable when the pup is diagnosed with hip dysplasia? If a breeder breeds dogs out of consistantly high risk lines for SA, should they be held accountable when a pup expresses SA? Just to really cause a bit of food for thought.. because everyone is always on the fence about bloat.. if a puppy gets into a full bag of dog food and then bloats should the breeder be held accountable for that? There are many who say that bloat has nothing to do with genetics. It is those breeders that cast a shadow on the many great breeders out there.
> ...


I agree 100%. I will repeat that every situation, there are at least two.. and usually three involved. On one end of the leash is the poodle. Kratos may or may not have a treatable tick disorder. He may, or may not have a genetic seizure disorder. He may or may not be unsocialized. But what it sounds like he is having behaviors that make him not a good fit in the home he is in.. as well as seizures, whatever the cause. Don't know what everyone else thinks.. but it sounds like with his anxiety that putting him in a crate to ship would most likely be very traumatic, if not dangerous for him. He NEEDS HELP. On the other end of the leash is the owner.. who it sounds like.. has a fairly out of control poodle who needs rehoming, possibly with a behavioral specialist AND possibly a more extensive medical workup. She may.. appreciate help. The third person.. on the other end of the leash is the breeder. Whether or not she tests, we have no control over. She has offered to send a replacement pup and quite honestly, that's more than a lot of breeder's will do. Will that pup have the same issues as Kratos? Who knows. What I do know.. is that in looking at Kratos pedigree.... I'm sure not seeing to many hints of seizure disorders. Many breeder's promote their health guarantees... but when it comes right down to it, won't back it up. It sounds as if the guarantee, which the pup was bought with.. was for a replacement pup and the breeder is honoring her agreement. Does the breeder need help with this situation? I bet no one's bothered to ask because when we do a self righteous tap dance on someone else's reputation.. it tends to give us an ego boost and that feels good, makes me feel strong, in control, don't know how it makes everyone else feel

So.. how about this:


Randi--Kratos owner: Is there anything that you are needing help with regarding Kratos or your new pup that we can assist with?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Randi6567 said:


> I was trying to find it too I can't seem to find a poodle specific rescue in LA I'm taking him to the vet tomorrow I'm most likely gonna test him for tick diseases depending on the cost I really don't want to keep investing more money into him since I'm not keeping him but I'll keep doing what's best for him till I find him a home


The more you can tell the rescue group, the better it will be for him. Testing for a tick disease is a good idea. 

I found this group. I don't know anything about them personally, just found them on Petfinder:

Poodles and Pals - Home


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> The third person.. on the other end of the leash is the breeder. Whether or not she tests, we have no control over. She has offered to send a replacement pup and quite honestly, that's more than a lot of breeder's will do. Will that pup have the same issues as Kratos? Who knows. What I do know.. is that in looking at Kratos pedigree.... I'm sure not seeing to many hints of seizure disorders. Many breeder's promote their health guarantees... but when it comes right down to it, won't back it up. It sounds as if the guarantee, which the pup was bought with.. was for a replacement pup and the breeder is honoring her agreement. Does the breeder need help with this situation? I bet no one's bothered to ask because when we do a self righteous tap dance on someone else's reputation.. it tends to give us an ego boost and that feels good, makes me feel strong, in control, don't know how it makes everyone else feel.


Yaddaluvpoodles, I don't know you, but I am curious if you know this breeder personally? You seem to be doing a lot of defending of her. I don't know her either, but it's very disappointing that she bred/sold a pup with some behavior issues and now an illness and refuses to take the pup back. It seems to me that a golden rule of being a responsible breeder is always taking a puppy or dog back regardless of the reason. Does she not care what happens to the puppy she created? Very, very sad to me.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I just want kratos to be happy and healthy I wish I could do it for him but I can't I feel bad cause I got him as my responsibility and I can't take proper care of him it's really saddening I'm gonna do everything I can for him till I find a place for him I appreciate all the help it's way more than I expected as far as the new pup of course I haven't heard back from the breeder as the parentage sexes and when they'll be ready which I asked but didn't get an answer yet I'm just kinda fed up with everything but o well gotta deal with it kratos was definitely a learning lesson for me if anyone has suggestions to rescues in the LA area I'll contact them all or if anyone knows anyone interested in taking him on locally let me know I got one offer but I would have to ship him which I'm trying to avoid but that may be the best home ugh so confused


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

1) I don't know her. 
2) I've never met her, or ANY of her dogs. I'm willing to bet that many of the people on this group haven't either.
3) I can't imagine utilizing the breeding practices that she does. She could be right, I could be wrong in what I believe. She knows what she's working for, what her goals are, I don't.
4) I have no desire to own any poodle with pedigree risks that are in Kratos --but that doesn't mean that other people wouldn't be comfortable with those risks, or willing to ignore those risks because their top priority is a gorgeous looking poodle.
5) There is a tremendous amount of nonproductive, negative energy that goes into criticism. I think it's human nature. I try to avoid it and still get tripped up sometimes. But IF we could gently remind and redirect each other.. well.. it would sure make the world a better place...and for our poodles too.
6) Rightly or wrongly, there are a whole lot of gorgeous parti poodles (guess what... I don't have any spotted poodles and don't plan on ever having any) who owe their existence to this breeder or her bloodlines. 
7) Until/unless I have personal interactions with her that convince me she is a dirty rotten scoundrel..well... I know her every bit as well as I know most everyone else on this group and for the most part.. I don't think that you are dirty rotten scoundrels <VBG> so I would more than likely be willing to defend most of the people on this group without hesitation... UNLESS I PERSONALLY know that they are a dirty rotten scoundrel.



So... instead of everyone going with the status quo and following in the well established trail of condemnation... why don't we try to set a new precedent for situations like these? It's just a thought... 

Who was it that said that the definition of Insanity is doing the same thing.. over and over again.. and expecting different results? Whenever a questionable situation occurs.. we all tend (me included).. to do the same thing. We stand on our self righteous foot stools, look down our noses, point that finger at the person we have taken offense at, shake our fingers, say our spiel, step down off of our stools, dust our hands off, pat our selves on the back that we are such great people and won't tolerate such offensiveness and we are going to let the world know it... and walk away.. feeling great. But what we've really done is... wasted a lot of time, tooted our own horn, haven't helped the situation any.. and possibly our actions have caused harm to both ends of the leash.

So... I guess what I'm pondering is... self righteous/condemnation/empowerment vs not only a sincere wish for improvement in an unhappy situation.. but are people willing to put their energies into positive action with mutual respect vs negative energies and outrage.. that don't do anything much for anyone. I'm hoping that what I have posted..has folks thinking a bit about actions..and maybe some ways things can be better.. instead of the same over and over again. I'm hoping more people stop and sincerely ask... what can I do to help this situation.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Randi6567 said:


> I just want kratos to be happy and healthy I wish I could do it for him but I can't I feel bad cause I got him as my responsibility and I can't take proper care of him it's really saddening I'm gonna do everything I can for him till I find a place for him I appreciate all the help it's way more than I expected as far as the new pup of course I haven't heard back from the breeder as the parentage sexes and when they'll be ready which I asked but didn't get an answer yet I'm just kinda fed up with everything but o well gotta deal with it kratos was definitely a learning lesson for me if anyone has suggestions to rescues in the LA area I'll contact them all or if anyone knows anyone interested in taking him on locally let me know I got one offer but I would have to ship him which I'm trying to avoid but that may be the best home ugh so confused


Here are some links to some poodle rescues who may be able to help. I'll make a couple of phone calls as well...... let's go for the happy ending.. or the happy rest of the story here <VBG>


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

Affiliate Clubs, PCA Member Breeders and Poodle Rescue Contacts


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

No one is calling this breeder a rotten scoundral. I don't even know who she is! However, I think it's fair to criticize poor behavior and a breeder refusing to take back a sick puppy of her breeding is poor behavior indeed. 

Will stating this fact help the OP with her current problem? No, however anyone searching and reading this thread in the future will at least see the opinions of people who feel this is very bad practice--education is important. How else do future newbies online and here in this forum learn what is good and bad practice in the breeding world?

We are not bashing anyone here. Like I said, I don't even know who the breeder is. We have offered help to the OP for her current problem at hand.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> No one is calling this breeder a rotten scoundral. I don't even know who she is! However, I think it's fair to criticize poor behavior and a breeder refusing to take back a sick puppy of her breeding is poor behavior indeed.
> 
> Will stating this fact help the OP with her current problem? No, however anyone searching and reading this thread in the future will at least see the opinions of people who feel this is very bad practice--education is important. How else do future newbies online and here in this forum learn what is good and bad practice in the breeding world?
> 
> We are not bashing anyone here. Like I said, I don't even know who the breeder is. We have offered help to the OP for her current problem at hand.


Well... I guess that answers my question quite explicitly.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Totally Off Topic re Seizures. Now status quo*



Yaddaluvpoodles said:


> 1) I don't know her.
> 2) I've never met her, or ANY of her dogs. I'm willing to bet that many of the people on this group haven't either.
> 
> 6) Rightly or wrongly, there are a whole *lot* of gorgeous parti poodles (guess what... I don't have any spotted poodles and don't plan on ever having any) who owe their existence to this breeder or her bloodlines.
> ...



I think the best way to help this situation is to try and ensure this does not happen again! I think that we should all be able to *educate* -both pet buyers and breeders - without using condemnation - about the benefits of a *healthy, temperament plus* poodle.

One way to start would be to use statements of fact instead of fiction. When stating opinions make sure that they are labelled opinions. 

For instance _in my opinion_ buying a puppy without insuring the parents are fully health tested encourages and rewards breeders to keep pumping out potentially unhealthy poodles. I believe one of my jobs is to educate as many puppy buyers as possible about proper poodle temperament and health testing. This is how I better the breed on a regular basis.

I am unsure of why you *think* this breeder has *produced* gorgeous parti poodles. How could you know this when you state you do not know the breeder or her dogs? This may be her first parti-poodle litter or if may be a parti-poodle out of two solid parents. 

Again, in my _opinion_ a gorgeous poodle one that is beautiful on the outside and inside and the best way to breed a healthy poodle is to utilize knowledge of pedigrees and *all* available health testing.

I hope my _opinions_ helped Randi6567 with her puppy and that other readers of this thread or forum will not have to suffer they way she and her poodle have.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I don't know the breeder. I looked at the website. I looked at the pedigrees. I was not bashing the breeder, but I would never purposefully breed a dog with that high a COI. 

The issue I had was that she won't take an ill puppy with severe behavior problems back. Of course she doesn't want to produce ill puppies. Even if a breeder didn't care about the life created, they would at least want to avoid the hassle. If poodle puppies were a hundred bucks it wouldn't seem quite so wicked to not take the puppy back, but poodle puppies are $$$ because it is expensive to breed dogs. I understand that and was willing to pay for what I wanted, but I did expect a healthy, socialized puppy and so did the original poster. This puppy was six months old, so no socialization is a big deal. 

Poodles are living creatures with individual personalities that vary quite a bit. My preference would be to have all puppies temperment tested so the best fit is made or at the very least the new owner is aware of the temperment. The test takes a few minutes per pup. 

On the breeders website she states she tests for hips with OFA (not a Pennhip, by the way) and eyes. They don't fully test the dogs. The buyer can see that, the breeder didn't hide anything. In my opinion, dogs that are purposefully bred should be fully tested. No, it is not a guarantee of perfect health, but it tips the scales in favor of it. Purebred dogs have suffered tremendously from breeding only for looks, not health.

I used to breed boxers, so I am not a total novice to breeding. I produced a few white boxers, which in the old days were supposed to be culled (killed) as newborns. I refused to do that because I had produced that life. Some boxer breeders said the white ones got skin cancer and blindness and all manner of crap to make themselves feel better when they put them to sleep. I found wonderful homes with families who signed a contract to spay or neuter them. I sold them for $25 without papers. I told them about the rumors of health issues with white boxers. I actually kept in contact with one of the white puppy families and that dog lived a long, happy life as a white boxer. Breeders, even those with the best intentions, will produce undesireable results on occasion. That doesn't make them a bad breeder at all! It is how they handle that situation that makes one ethical or not. 

I couldn't find any other poodle rescues in SoCal other than the two already listed. There are phone numbers you can call for the website that is down on the Affiliate club links.

In the end, there is no perfect dog, but there are a lot of healthy poodles waiting for you to choose them. Perhaps this breeder has a much younger,healthy puppy for you. It is a lot easier to end up with a dog you like when you get them as small puppies. Then you won't be out the money you paid for the puppy at least and you will have the parti you wanted.


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## Yaddaluvpoodles (Mar 20, 2010)

*Sorry I suggested changing approaches....*



Rayah-QualitySPs said:


> I think the best way to help this situation is to try and ensure this does not happen again! I think that we should all be able to *educate* -both pet buyers and breeders - without using condemnation - about the benefits of a *healthy, temperament plus* poodle.
> 
> One way to start would be to use statements of fact instead of fiction. When stating opinions make sure that they are labelled opinions.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm not very good at the back and forth of poking at people. I'm super sensitive and get my feelings hurt really easily. Sometimes I take things as personal attacks when they weren't meant to be.. and sometimes I say things harshly without meaning to. I like it a lot when people play nice and that's one of the big motivators behind my postings on this thread. Having said that.. let me waste a few minutes of my life.


IMO: Having fully health tested poodles is terrific, but it does not give ANY guarantee whatsoever of healthy offspring, with the exception being for the disorders there are genetic tests available for. For anyone who would like to convince me that full testing does ensure health.. please feel free to contribute to Vic's pharmaceutical bill. It's actually pretty cheap. What isn't cheap is.. the heartbreak that goes along with it, as well as how she feels when things get off a bit Those are the things I wish I could share with certain people. Vic is out of parents who were fully health tested. Sire was tested for vWD by blood, not DNA, which wasn't that uncommon back then. Vic was also fully health tested.. and bred to a stud who was fully health tested. The list of health issues in their offspring is pretty discouraging. I'm sounding like I'm not in favor of testing and that is not at all my point. I strongly support testing as it does stack the deck in favor of health.. but with no guarantees (except DNA tests). 


Statement of fact: I have never met this breeder or her dogs. I don't have any association with her at all. 

In my opinion, most people who have spent a substantial amount of time doing pedigree research are familiar (at least in name) with breeder's who have been around for any length of time. When seriously researching pedigrees, experienced researchers do tend to look at more than the pedigree in front of them. Information comes from many sources, including places where there may be photos. 

Statement of fact: As soon as I had a registered name for Kratos, I had all sorts of information at my fingertips in a matter of moments regarding him, his pedigree, his ancestors and.. his breeder. Anyone skilled in pedigree research can do exactly the same. I've spent years tracking health issues, keeping notes, looking at pedigrees and watching trends in health issues. 

IMO: Perfect poodles are very rare--personally, I've never come across one, but I've heard of a few. When looking for a poodle, there are always tradeoffs, that one has higher health risks in it's pedigree, this one has worse hips, this one has wonky structure, this one has... the list goes on. Everyone who obtains a poodle has to make decisions as to what they want and what they are willing to accept to get what they want. I took a look at this breeder's website.. it seems pretty clearly spelled out what she tests for and what she doesn't. I could be missing it.. but I don't see anything hidden or deceitful.

IMO: Quite honestly, who Kratos breeder is.. doesn't mean diddly squat to me personally. I'm just sad to see the same scenario replayed... over and over and over again. Different names, different poodles, different breeders, different days/weeks/months/years...repeat. It makes sense to me, that in order to change the scenario, we have to do something different, we have to make a change. But now I'm thinking... I was badly mistaken. I would like to see this scenario changed, but that doesn't mean that other people share that desire and so I'm very sorry that I brought it up and suggested change.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Oh, I think you were very civilized and brought up some excellent points, yaddaluvpoodles. I was enjoying the discussion and don't mind some disagreement.


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## NorthJerseyGirrl (Aug 15, 2011)

I'm reading this post months later and wonder why the outcome was never posted. Poor Kratos. I hope he found a good home with someone who was willing to take the time to retrain him. 

FWIW, the buyer who "only wanted a flashy show poodle" (at least she was candid) raised as many red flags for me as the breeder who would replace the puppy but would not take back the problematic one. I wonder if the breeder screened the buyer.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I just never thought of posting the out come cuz I got some private messages askin what happened and i told them and I posted it on a different thread but kratos went to a rescue group he hasn't gotten a forever home yet cause he has too many issues they want to figure out the cause of his seizures before adopting him out and he's too skittish still but overall he's doing ok. The breeder sent me a 8 week old replacement pup who is a love he's great his name is stedman he's so cute. Anyways I was a little offended by the post from jersey girl I love my dogs and they're my pets and yes I did want a flashy competition dog I'm trying to do grooming competition in the next couple years and want my own dog to work with but he's my pet still none the less people buy specific dogs for specific reasons all the time I don't see the problem


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## Cynthadia (Oct 22, 2010)

"This breeder has been burned at the stake of public opinion, sometimes with me fanning the flames. I have apologized to that breeder, but the damage to her reputation has been done."

Thank you, YaddaLuv, for your very articulate statement regarding irreputable damage to one's reputation. Idiopathic epilepsy - I can only feel sorry for the poor puppy and his owner.


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## Randi6567 (May 22, 2011)

I just want to say that when I started this thread I had no intentions of hurting the breeders reputation I think her dogs are beautiful that's why I bought one I just wanted suggestions what to do with kratos, she stood by her word and gave me a replacement pup so I can't complain she didn't want kratos back but I understand why, what was the point of putting him thru shipping again anyway he's ok with the rescue


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