# Sit confusion



## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

Simply put Monty seems to have trouble distinguishing between 'sit' and 'down'. 
Sometimes when I ask for a sit, he lies down. Sometimes he lies down when he is expected to sit (before something else can happen). It is never the other way around and probably happens 1/5. Related to this is the fact that he refuses to 'sit' from a 'down'. So it play out like this: 
Sit!
He flops down. 
We stare at each other for a few seconds, him expecting a treat. 
Monty, sit! 
Stares some more. 
Sometimes he ends up sitting up to bark at me out of frustration but I don't think he is learning anything at that point and I definitely don't want to reward the barking. 

I think there is sort of a blurred line between the two and our training has maybe encouraged 'downs' inadvertently. My idea to deal with this is to focus on getting a 'sit' from a 'down' but having not taught him 'sit' in the first place, I'm not sure how to go about this. I've tried luring without too much success. Thoughts, advice? 

Thanks!


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## blueroan (Dec 28, 2015)

Honey has the same problem! I work with a leash so if she tries to lie down on a sit command, she can't because I've already pulled up on the leash to prevent her from lying down *cue a look of TOTAL CONFUSION!* hahaha

Most of the time she gets it now. I still have to work on tricks etc with a leash because her number one thing to do is flop and look cute lol, but if I have a leash on I have way more control of a squirmy wriggling pup


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I would put a blocker in front of where the dog is standing, keep a leash on so they can't back away from the blocker and ask for a sit while holding the leash up behind the neck just enough to make the down hard to think of doing. Reward good sits this way lavishly to reinforce that sit means sit, not down. For a green dog the blocker could be a short length of a gutter or a 2 x 4 about 2 feet long. For a more experienced dog the blocker can be a dowel. Using the leash will encourage a tuck sit rather than a rock back sit. If you want a good sit at heel eventually you want a good tuck sit so the dog doesn't end up behind you when he sits.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm going to pay attention to how he sits this evening. For some reason I can't visualize what he does at all! So the blocker would serve as a physical barrier to him stretching out into a down? Correct me if I've misunderstood, please.

The leash tension is a bit of problem with Monty. Probably from his dedication to pulling, it seems as though he has ZERO sensitivity to pressure on his neck. It's made loose leash training... interesting.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Yes the blocker should be right in front of his front feet so he can't easily slide to the down by extending his front feet out ahead of him. Using the leash isn't so much about tension sending a signal as having it also block him from easily getting to the down. I will try to go take a picture to show the blocker on the floor, but I can't do the leash and take a picture in a way that will show what I mean without a helper.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I found my dogs tend to offer the most recently trained behaviour almost regardless of the cue, if they think it will get them a treat - it is the best they have to offer, and they offer the high value thing first! We don't train for competition work, and I have always been more focussed on good manners than exact responses, so they tend to get rewarded for either Sit or Down. But if we are playing rainy day training games, when I want them to really concentrate, I use hand signals. Hands behind my back means Down, hand held high means Sit. They find signals much easier to grasp than verbal cues - perhaps if you start with the signal, pair it with the word, then fade the hand signal he will find it easier to understand what you want him to do.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Excuse Javvy's groom (we got drenched in the rain the other night and BF fed him with no snood on), but here he is on a stand in the blocker box I use for fronts and finishes. What I would want is for him to sit by bringing his back end in towards his front feet and to keep his front feet planted for a tuck sit. For your situation you want the bar in front to prevent Monty from sliding his front legs out in front of him to slide onto a down.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I am not accusing rj16 of this, but during my 7 years out at the dog yard, the first thing we did when clients said that their dogs were confusing the sit and down, was to ask them to do a short five minute demo. Most of the time the client would tell the dog to "sit", "sit down", "down" and "lay down". When they started practicing with just, "sit" and "lay down" the confusion went away. Our clients were primarily pet owners, and they thought that the commands were not that important. We had to explain that the word you use is not important but you have to be consistent and you can't use the same word for different actions.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Charmed that is a good point. You could say apple, orange, cherry for all it matters, but the words have to have consistent meaning. I try to get my beginner students to think carefully about their words for just the reasons you pointed out. For some folks it is hard to remember to be consistent and for some dogs there is confusion because different people use different words. I actually have a list of my commands for house behaviors that I give to people who care for my dogs in my absence and I also have a different set of words for my dogs in the performance ring that no one else is allowed to use. I don't even usually say sit to my poodles when we are working since everybody under the sun says sit to them all the time. Set up or get close means sit at heel for them.

I am sure that rj16 is consistent with her orders, but it is worth pointing out for lurkers and others who might find this by searching for hints.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

Very good point to make for readers Charmed and lily_cd_re. I was very deliberate in choosing my commands, using only "sit" for sit, "down" for laying and "off" for getting paws off of something that they shouldn't be on - not sit down, lay down, get down.

Do you reward Monty when he randomly sits or lays (offers the behaviour) and say good sit/good down? To the more seasoned trainers - would this complicate the issue since it is a confusion between two commands? 

In the puppy class we have been going to, we do a lot of waiting until they offer the behaviour and then rewarding. Shae is not that great at shaping exercises yet, so I have spent a long time staring at pylons, planks and cardboard boxes waiting for her to react appropriately.

Are you using hand signals (consistent ones) at all? My oldest dog knows both verbal and hand signals for a lot of things - I find he picks up things much better when he has a visual cue. And it was always such a riot to show off his puppy tricks to friends and family without having to say a word. Shae is learning words with signals, but in general is quite easy to lure into position, so reacts to my treat positioning the most - oh the power of an almighty piece of kibble!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

galofpink I do use shaping for much of my work along with signals and verbal orders. I think that letting the dog learn to offer the desired behavior when the situation allows for it really helps them make the neurological connections they need to get behaviors installed for all conditions and circumstances. As an example I had Javelin with me at class (human school) last night. When lecture started I put his dinner down on the floor in the front of the room. He tried to start eating before I released him to do so. I told him to lie down, but then waited for him to look away at the food and make eye contact with me before I allowed him to start eating. My students thought it was a little funny but I explained to them that offering to connect back to me rather than continuing to obsess over the food was the behavior I wanted. Later, during lecture he had been sleeping (which is what I wanted) but when he woke up he wanted to have attention from me (again his job was to be settled). He jumped up on me and I told him off, but instead of offering a good static position like a sit or a down he stood in front of me. I waited him out and gave him a good sit with a treat when he offered to sit. He knows to offer those eye contacts and static responses at home and at my club, but having him do them in a new setting and with 13 extra tempting people to go off to try to play with will help him generalize these behaviors for life long living skills.


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## mvhplank (Dec 5, 2012)

This is only tangentially related to the original question, but I thought it was funny.

Ages ago, when my Rat Terrier Devlin was an only dog, I took him to visit out-of-town friends for an overnight and a chance to attend a talk and book signing by Patricia McConnell, a well-known author and animal behaviorist.

She was making a point about what we say to dogs and what they understand. Her example was telling a particular dog to "sit." The dog sat. Then she said "sit" again. The dog lay down, elbows on the floor. She said "sit" again, and the dog rolled over on his side. She indicated that the dog believed that "sit" means "get lower."

As a result of that long-ago memory, I make sure the dogs can sit from both a stand and from a down. I use a lot of lures for that kind of training.

Oh--after the talk and during the book signing, I took Devlin up to the podium and she cooed over him and gave him a cookie.


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## galofpink (Mar 14, 2017)

lily cd re: yes, that would be funny to see in human class and can imagine the amusement your students had with that. 

I do the same for Shae at meals - bowl down, immediate sit (usually without command), but no release word until she's been fixated on me and not the food for whatever amount of time. Same with leave its, no hand treat until the dogs have decided not to stare at the piece of kibble on the floor and made eye contact with me.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

galofpink said:


> lily cd re: yes, that would be funny to see in human class and can imagine the amusement your students had with that.
> 
> I do the same for Shae at meals - bowl down, immediate sit (usually without command), but no release word until she's been fixated on me and not the food for whatever amount of time. Same with leave its, no hand treat until the dogs have decided not to stare at the piece of kibble on the floor and made eye contact with me.


At home I usually look for offered sit before bowl goes down. If the dog in question breaks while I am putting the bowl down I pick it back up and wait for the offer of another appropriate static behavior. At work I still have to tell Javvy to sit or down before I put the food down. This shows how clearly generalizing takes time and experience. At home the poodles have to do a series of sits, downs, stands with offered eye contact before releasing them to the food. Again they are better at these things at home than away, but with practice they get better and better at all of the potential scenarios.


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## rj16 (Jan 30, 2017)

I'm so sorry for taking so long to respond to you all. I had some technical difficulties with my internet provider before going away for the weekend. My apologies! I assure you I much appreciate your suggestions. 



fjm said:


> I found my dogs tend to offer the most recently trained behaviour almost regardless of the cue, if they think it will get them a treat - it is the best they have to offer, and they offer the high value thing first! We don't train for competition work, and I have always been more focussed on good manners than exact responses, so they tend to get rewarded for either Sit or Down. But if we are playing rainy day training games, when I want them to really concentrate, I use hand signals. Hands behind my back means Down, hand held high means Sit. They find signals much easier to grasp than verbal cues - perhaps if you start with the signal, pair it with the word, then fade the hand signal he will find it easier to understand what you want him to do.


Monty inadvertently learned that a closed fist on my chest means sit because that's how I'd hold his leash or tug toy while expecting him to sit!



Charmed said:


> I am not accusing rj16 of this, but during my 7 years out at the dog yard, the first thing we did when clients said that their dogs were confusing the sit and down, was to ask them to do a short five minute demo. Most of the time the client would tell the dog to "sit", "sit down", "down" and "lay down". When they started practicing with just, "sit" and "lay down" the confusion went away. Our clients were primarily pet owners, and they thought that the commands were not that important. We had to explain that the word you use is not important but you have to be consistent and you can't use the same word for different actions.


I'm extremely deliberate about my cues and I'm shocked that some people underestimate the importance. I've heard my mother-in-law ask Monty to 'sit down' a couple of times and she was surprised by his very obvious confusion. I had to explain to her how literal he is. 



galofpink said:


> In the puppy class we have been going to, we do a lot of waiting until they offer the behaviour and then rewarding. Shae is not that great at shaping exercises yet, so I have spent a long time staring at pylons, planks and cardboard boxes waiting for her to react appropriately.
> 
> Are you using hand signals (consistent ones) at all? My oldest dog knows both verbal and hand signals for a lot of things - I find he picks up things much better when he has a visual cue. And it was always such a riot to show off his puppy tricks to friends and family without having to say a word. Shae is learning words with signals, but in general is quite easy to lure into position, so reacts to my treat positioning the most - oh the power of an almighty piece of kibble!


That sounds very similar to our class - the focus is on the dog's choice. For example, had Monty not known 'sit' we would have cued it after he started doing it spontaneously when he went to his mat, and this was extended to 'down'. I feel like we probably conveyed to him that down was a better behaviour somehow. 



mvhplank said:


> This is only tangentially related to the original question, but I thought it was funny.
> 
> Ages ago, when my Rat Terrier Devlin was an only dog, I took him to visit out-of-town friends for an overnight and a chance to attend a talk and book signing by Patricia McConnell, a well-known author and animal behaviorist.
> 
> ...


That's a fascinating hypothesis. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that is exactly what goes through Monty's head. Because he came to me knowing sit (and because of how we train) I haven't focused on sit from down and I think that might be the real culprit here. 

I think I'll start with the basics with Catherine's suggestion of a blocker and hand signals, and be very deliberate about teaching sitting from lying down. We have a week off of class because of Canada Day so I can make it my week's mission! 

Thank you so much for your suggestions!


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