# Breeding Age



## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

So I had a very interesting conversation this past weekend about what determines the appropriate age to breed. The advice I was given was WAIT! Breeding is a crapshoot and there should never be a rush to breed your dog, I know the breeder I was talking to likes to wait until their dogs about 3yrs or maybe a little older...

I know this topic has been spoken about here...Disasterous Thread I hope this thread can be a wee bit more civil then the previous one


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Yes, the last thread about this did get quite intense, didn't it?

We bred Betty-Jo for her first litter two months shy of her third birthday and nearly one full year after all of her testing was completed. We will be breeding for Jenny's first litter at three and a half years old and nearly a year and a half after all of her testing was done (and tweaking some of her testing which has now expired). Both have been tested up the wazoo (hips-excellent, S/A- normal, cardiac- normal, patellas- normal, DM- clear, thyroid- normal and clear by parentage of vWd and NE. Their Mama (who is at my feet) will be eight in December and is the picture of health (albeit quite a chubby girl since her spay). Her testing was also completed prior to ever being bred and she also has great results -OVC hips- (clear of any evidence of HD), thyroid-clear, S/A- clear, CERF- normal, vWd- clear and NE- clear. I get a lot of comfort from living with her, knowing what a ridiculously healthy girl she has been her entire life, and in not having litters out of the girls until they are as old as they are. I also get a lot of pleasure and comfort in having ALL of their testing done, with remarkable results, then having sat on those results for a while and watching them continuing on with good health and awesome temperaments. I would never breed a female before the age of 2-2 1/2 and would never breed a female without this complete roster of tests being done first.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

It's my understanding that the dog should be over 2 with all testing completed and of good results. With a previous breed, I waited until around 3. I won't be breeding my poodle, though.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Wow, the thread you posted Keith was before my time (so glad I missed it). Now some of the comments I have seen make sense to me know. I do hope this thread keeps on topic about breeding age. I do like to see a dog reach two although for me testing is not the cast iron guarentee that people seem to think it is. I look forward to the day when a dog's genome is mapped and dogs no longer have to undergo painful and expensive procedures like punching.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Actually it was before Keiths time as well.. It had to be pointed out to him by a looong time member. It was horrible ....But now that I am in the midst of a very ugly divorce with Redvelvet AKA Rocky It makes it much worse . Twice today this person has managed to hurt me deeply .. First the dead dog and now this ,, There is a name for folks like this ... The past is the past the only reason to bring it up is to inflame....Or to be mean 
Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation "DNFTT" redirect here. For the Wikimedia essay, see "What is a troll?".


The "trollface" or "coolface", is sometimes used to indicate trolling.[1]
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4] The noun troll may refer to the provocative message itself, as in: "That was an excellent troll you posted".
While the word troll and its associated verb trolling are associated with Internet discourse, media attention in recent years has made such labels subjective, with trolling describing intentionally provocative actions outside of an online context. For example, mass media uses troll to describe "a person who defaces Internet tribute sites with the aim of causing grief to families."[5][6]


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> Wow, the thread you posted Keith was before my time (so glad I missed it). Now some of the comments I have seen make sense to me know. I do hope this thread keeps on topic about breeding age. I do like to see a dog reach two although for me testing is not the cast iron guarentee that people seem to think it is. I look forward to the day when a dog's genome is mapped and dogs no longer have to undergo painful and expensive procedures like punching.


Oh goodness...me too! When Holly had her S/A skin punch done, all three sites got infected and she had to go on anti-biotics. So when we had Betty-Jo and Jenny's done, we were on pins and needles. Theirs went off without a hitch. We will not do the test every year, but every other year. There are breeders who question the validity at all, because it is only a snapshot in time, and only in the area you punch. But, we will do it every two years too be on the safe side.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> *Wow, the thread you posted Keith was before my time (so glad I missed it). Now some of the comments I have seen make sense to me know. I do hope this thread keeps on topic about breeding age. * I do like to see a dog reach two although for me testing is not the cast iron guarentee that people seem to think it is. I look forward to the day when a dog's genome is mapped and dogs no longer have to undergo painful and expensive procedures like punching.


(*Bolding is mine*.) I agree, and slim chance of the latter happening.

I also look forward to that day--and hopefully dogs will follow in our footsteps and start living longer. I can't think of a more deserving species. 

As for the OP question: I'm not a breeder, but it only makes sense to me that the dog/bitch be allowed to mature, and for the breeder to wait until whatever testing currently available is carried out. Good things come to those who wait!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_Since OFA hips cannot be done before 2 years of age anyway, I would expect that a dog or bitch would not be bred until such test is completed and the results are in; which would put them over 2 at least. We do not breed until the OFA is done and we have received the official results and then we have to wait until the bitch comes into season again after having received the results. That could be anywhere from a month after that to several months after. 

Now, there are people who go with PENN hip testing which I believe can be done at 6 months of age. However, I don't believe that any dog should be bred until after 2 years of age no matter what hip testing is used.

All breeding dogs should have their testing complete and clear before breedings. Those being the tests that Arreau mentioned above. There are some that will need to be repeated before breeding. We expect to breed Grace again sometime next year. Her CERF will be repeated at the Thanksgiving cluster show near us this year and has to be clear before we use her again. 

There is much debate over the SA test in regards to the fact that it is basically good for only the day it is taken and in the areas the samples were taken from. Although I know that there are some people out there who want to see this test done on a dog and bitch before buying a puppy, we will not put our dogs through the painful test since there is no long term value in it. This is where a buyer needs to research their breeder and decide whether they are comfortable with that. 

I any case, I want to see all the basic health testing complete and clear on both parents, that their hips have passed with a minimum of good; preferably excellent, but not easy to get, and that they are over the age of 2 before a breeding takes place. I also want to look at the parents, siblings and any offspring they may have to see if they are also clear of these diseases before any breeding takes place. There are enough disease in the poodle breed, as with any breed, and we don't need to be taking risks to carry them on to future generations.

Even with the best precautions, breeding can be a crap shoot. The best we can do is to do the best we can do by them_


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am hearing more and more breeders say they will not do the S/A test. I think it is important to do a base line, then do it every so often just to be sure. I have had two breeders ream me out for my opinion, stating I need to do it every year we breed. But then a vet will remind me, you can pay nearly $200 for the test, and while you are awaiting results, the dog can technically become affected. So, I am betwixt and between, but agree whole heartedly, one must get to know their breeder, and if they do not do the test, educate themselves on how to use the PHR, research the pedigrees behind the dogs, and determine for themselves if the lack of this one test makes a difference to them in the grand scheme of things.


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_And this proves just how controversial that test is.

I admire your view on the SA, Arreau. You are doing what you are comfortable with. I hope you don't have another episode with infection in the sites. 

I have a problem with one breeder reaming out another over something like this. It, in my opinion, should be a decision made by each breeder for reasons that they believe in and are able to stand behind. In my opinion, getting reamed out over a test that is not forever-in-a-day conclusive, is akin to trying to force another breeder to adopt their practices. No one has the right to try to force others to follow their protocol. 

If we were talking about puppy millers and byb's who were not testing for anything, I would have a different view on that, but you are testing your dogs fully._


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _And this proves just how controversial that test is.
> 
> I admire your view on the SA, Arreau. You are doing what you are comfortable with. I hope you don't have another episode with infection in the sites.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%! And I hope to heck we never see infection in the punches too. It was not fun and was very hard on the dog. The test is gawd-awful enough, but then add the infection...well, it kind of put me off the whole thing entirely, but we did it again anyway, thankfully, with much better results.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

For those like me who don't know much about the various tests, or only have surface knowledge of the various diseases our beloved poodles are prone to, I figured I'd save you a Google trip.  

"SA" = Sebaceous Adenitis
Sebaceous Adenitis (SA)



> Consider also the Poodles that develop clinical SA well before reaching their second birthday, contrasted with those that test "affected" in routine SA screening but never show clinical signs of disease. Or consider anecdotes of affected dogs re-growing hair after an upgrade in diet or other environmental change. Then there's the invasive and expensive skin-punch test that can miss lesions and yield a false-negative result. Yet that screening test is the best tool breeders have, augmented by pedigree study and risk-assessment strategies, when making breeding decisions.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Sheryl...thats appalling that you would even think that I drug this up to hurt you...shame on you! And calling me a troll? I would never call you a name...or imply something of you like that...
And it wasn't before my time I'd been a member for a year when that thread was started...(thread I posted occurred in the summer of 2010, I've been an active member since October 2009...)

I was genuinely curious! I had it explained to me by a well known (reputable breeder) that she wouldn't mind breeding her male under 2 especially if she had intentions on specialling him! Her view was, if I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to special my boy...I want to know what he produces!
And that got me thinking, because I agree with that sentiment...I don't agree with breeding frivolous like so many red breeders have...but if one had already obtained a CH. on their dog and then wanted to continue showing it by specialing him I could see the benefit of breeding him early just to be sure of your investment. The thought of spending upwards of 150k a year on advertisement would kill me just to see it drain away because the dog couldn't produce or produced terrible fronts, backends, etc.

Debbie, I adore your post. The amount of health testing and effort you're putting forth has all been worth it when you look at Song and Angel!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Rowan said:


> For those like me who don't know much about the various tests, or only have surface knowledge of the various diseases our beloved poodles are prone to, I figured I'd save you a Google trip.
> 
> "SA" = Sebaceous Adenitis
> Sebaceous Adenitis (SA)


Good idea Rowan! Sometimes we breeders forget not everyone knows the terminology! Great quote too. Where did it come from?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Keith I don't know you or Sheryl. I do know that from my viewpoint there was no need to post a link to that thread. I think we can all agree it does not paint Sheryl in a favorable light so in my opinion it is disingenuous of you to claim to be surprised that it 
was hurtful. Why else would you link to such an old thread? I don't see how it furthers the discussion of breeding age in a meaningful way. If you have a problem with the way Sheryl breeds her dogs either pm her or don't hide behind innuendo. I am also not thrilled with the way Sheryl responded but if you attack you are provoking her to do so. I am so tired of all the drama. Can't we just all get along and focus on what is important - furthering the breed?


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

LOL - yeah that link really didn't have much to offer in regards to breeding age. I almost forgot about that - to me that was when things were way uglier than they have ever been.

I think breeding age should be right around two - it appears to be the "standard" in order to complete all testing. If a reputable breeder has done their pedigree searches and testing then I think 2 will suffice. I also see some breeders depending on the dog do wait until 3-5 years of age. I think circumstances change a breeders decision... I think that's fair.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

CT Girl said:


> Keith I don't know you or Sheryl. I do know that from my viewpoint there was no need to post a link to that thread. I think we can all agree it does not paint Sheryl in a favorable light so in my opinion it is disingenuous of you to claim to be surprised that it
> was hurtful. Why else would you link to such an old thread? I don't see how it furthers the discussion of breeding age in a meaningful way. If you have a problem with the way Sheryl breeds her dogs either pm her or don't hide behind innuendo. I am also not thrilled with the way Sheryl responded but if you attack you are provoking her to do so. I am so tired of all the drama. Can't we just all get along and focus on what is important - furthering the breed?


I posted it as a reference point for myself and others to see the opinion of members that are no longer posting and what they have said about this topic (opinions which I value!). That was the most direct thread relating to this topic. Also...I'm not hiding behind innuendo, and if I had a serious problem with the way she does things I'd link from PHR not an out of date thread here on poodleforum

And I agree Olie, I feel it's very situational! In the instance I suggested I would have no doubt in my mind that I'd breed that dog before I specialed it...I was privy to a conversation about specialing and let me tell you...it isn't for the faint of heart! And if I've invested near 200k for the dog to be REALLY campaigned (the handling fees are chump change compared to what some pay into advertisement!!)...I'd hope to be able to prove him and let everyone know why he's being specialed!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I have also heard about breeding dogs before 2 if they are going to be promoted in special. As I said earlier, there is the PENN hip test that can be done much earlier than the OFA. I think that anyone specializing their dog has to know quite a bit about what they are doing to begin with. I fully understand why they would want to put something on the ground first to be sure that it is going to produce the quality they are expecting. The amount of money put into these dogs is quite prohibitive. I know that we are not likely to ever see that ourselves._


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Holy crap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously???????????? $200,000????????? Am I ever glad I was more than content with Quincy being a Canadian champion! Sheesh! If we we looking at this, you are darned tootin' I'd be doing Pennhip young and breeding younger than average before I spent all that money. My God...I feel light headed at the thought.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Lol not all specials cost that much, but an extensively shown dog that has been advertised a ton would cost that much...Think BIG name dogs Whisperwind on a Carousel (Last standard to go BIS at Westminster), Trelarken Turn Back Time, and maybe even London...most breeders specialling usually have backers which helps pay for the ads and other fees just because they love the sport of showing dogs :]

and thats why I'm looking into other career paths...a teachers salary isn't really equipped for seriously specialling a dog!


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I always wondered what it cost them to special them. I figured it had to be a LOT of money. And, they do have backers usually. I'm sure this helps, but there is probably a lot of out of pocket expenses just the same. It would be nice if we had someone on the forum who could give us a little more insight into the details of specialing.

That's a big dream, Keith. I hope you get there someday._


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I'll let Terry know, I'm sure he'd be able to shed some light on it! He's the one that explained it to me haha XD

And I do tend to have big dreams XD...the best part of that dream is I want to do it all on an apricot or red dog! HA!!


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Good idea Rowan! Sometimes we breeders forget not everyone knows the terminology! Great quote too. Where did it come from?


Thanks, Cherie. The quote came from the link (PCA's SA page).


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Keithsomething said:


> I posted it as a reference point for myself and others to see the opinion of members that are no longer posting and what they have said about this topic (opinions which I value!). That was the most direct thread relating to this topic. Also...I'm not hiding behind innuendo, and if I had a serious problem with the way she does things I'd link from PHR not an out of date thread here on poodleforum
> 
> And I agree Olie, I feel it's very situational! In the instance I suggested I would have no doubt in my mind that I'd breed that dog before I specialed it...I was privy to a conversation about specialing and let me tell you...it isn't for the faint of heart! And if I've invested near 200k for the dog to be REALLY campaigned (the handling fees are chump change compared to what some pay into advertisement!!)...I'd hope to be able to prove him and let everyone know why he's being specialed!


Keith, I am sorry that I read something into this that was not there. I do miss members who no longer post because of past unpleasantness - perhaps I am overly sensitive because of this.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

I personally find this thread interesting even though I am FAR from a breeder, so I hope it's OK if I chime in.

I consider myself an interested, semi-knowledgeable pet owner and in my search for a new companion I've seen breeding ages vary.

My preference is to find a breeder who waits before breeding.

When I got my first poodle I didn't know what I do today and my boy's sire was just about 1yr old and his dam was 5yrs old. They did have their health tests complete, but I might (might!) not have made the same decisions had I known more at that time. However, my boy was the light of my life and I wouldn't have traded him for the world. And, in light of what Keith said about Specials dogs, I do know that Gabe's sire was Specialing at the time and this was actually his first litter. I'm not sure, but it may well have been a case of proving he could produce quality before continuing down that expensive road. (I believe I vaguely remember thinking that 1yr was rather young, but whatever answer I got to this when I asked the breeder was sufficient.)

On the other hand, the new little girl I'm looking at comes from fully tested parents (w/CHIC numbers) and both were over the age of five when this litter was whelped. This information makes me feel very comfortable, but I know there are NO guarantees in life. 

I may get into UKC showing at some point, but I seriously doubt I would ever want to deal with breeding, its just such a huge responsibility!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Sparkyjoe that is great news that you have a puppy in mind. I hope you have many happy, healthy years with her. You are right there are no guarantees but you might as well stack the odds in your favor.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> Sparkyjoe that is great news that you have a puppy in mind. I hope you have many happy, healthy years with her. You are right there are no guarantees but you might as well stack the odds in your favor.


I guess she's technically an adult (born 10/17/10) but she's a couple of inches and several pounds smaller than my first dog, so I tend to think of her as a "little girl". :smile:


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Sparkyjoe, if she's new to you thats all that matters! 
I can't wait to see photos of this new girl 

And I also have to say breeding definitely isn't for the faint of heart...I sometimes wonder if it's really want I'd like to do, showing most definitely has my heart! But the breeding seems messy to me XD ...and all the what if's terrify me!!


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Specialing: Yes, the top animals have zeros with commas behind them. Add it yourself. They live and travel EVERY week with a handler, so you have boarding, bathing, grooming, handling costs to show in the breed, group and BIS, advertisments and travel.

Not every CH has what it takes to "special". The animal has to truly love to show and like London with Ann or Xena with Chris or Thomas with Kay or Ally with Tim B or insert top poodle and top handler name here - they truly LOVE to work with their person. And beyond incredible conformation - there is an intangible - that draws you to them.

MY Opinion - and you've probably seen me post this elsewhere - I value it highly :aetsch:

R.E. the subject of the thread.... I did not SA punch Annie. She's had every other test done - starting at 9 months and repeating yearly - 2 thyroids now and 2 cardiacs and 3 CERFs. Ruby I did SA punch and until they get a DNA test I won't do that again. It's brutal.

Lombardi will - pending testing results (and his first Cardiac and CERF was done today) breed to B at around 18 - 20 months. Reason - they are both mine- and Yes! there are tentative plans to special Lombardi. It's early still, but he turned 9 months old last week. As of today he has 6 points and 3 BOB wins. All owner handled. If he were with a pro he could be finished - an apricot puppy! He's da bomb. :adore:

My Opinion - of course (see earlier comment about M not so HO, _especially_ where Le Glorious is concerned!).

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Specialing: Yes, the top animals have zeros with commas behind them. Add it yourself. They live and travel EVERY week with a handler, so you have boarding, bathing, grooming, handling costs to show in the breed, group and BIS, advertisments and travel.
> 
> Not every CH has what it takes to "special". The animal has to truly love to show and like London with Ann or Xena with Chris or Thomas with Kay or Ally with Tim B or insert top poodle and top handler name here - they truly LOVE to work with their person. And beyond incredible conformation - there is an intangible - that draws you to them.
> 
> ...


Yes you were who I was talking about, I didn't want to throw you under the bus so I'm glad you commented!
I think if you're doing it with a goal in mind it's completely different than willy nilly breeding

...and I will someday have that perfect example of the breed!!! And I'm gonna special the he*l out of him! (I don't like the idea of a bitch special...I dunno why >.<)


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

The cost of specialing is truly shocking. If you decide to go for it Keith and Tabitha I wish you every sucess and hopefully several wealthy backers. How exciting that you have such a hot prospectTabatha. Very impressive record. For a special I can see why you would have to do the punch test - it must be very difficult to have dogs you nuture so carefully - but you really have to do it if you are at that level.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Thanks, Keith, I wondered, and appreciate the courtesy. The "bus" I would worry about being under is the one my mentors and the breeders I truly respect are driving. And they say I should use him. So, IF plans continue, and testing is good, I will more than likely proceed.

R.E. the specialing. I'm not dreaming of a # anything Non Sporting or a Top 20 - but thanks CT and Keith for believing in my dream of the money tree. I have spent much of my life searching. My parents talked about it quite a lot "Do you think we have a money tree???!!!" 

I do hope to find it one day...


Tabatha
NOLA Standards

R.E.: the snapshot SA punch. Some scientist is going to come up with something MUCH better, that is an accurate indicator. (and that happening has got a lot better shot than my money tree!)


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Thanks, Keith, I wondered, and appreciate the courtesy. The "bus" I would worry about being under is the one my mentors and the breeders I truly respect are driving. And they say I should use him. So, IF plans continue, and testing is good, I will more than likely proceed.
> 
> R.E. the specialing. I'm not dreaming of a # anything Non Sporting or a Top 20 - but thanks CT and Keith for believing in my dream of the money tree. I have spent much of my life searching. My parents talked about it quite a lot "Do you think we have a money tree???!!!"
> 
> ...


OOO I agree and when you find the tree , can you send me some seeds ?


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

The SA test gives the buyer a false sense of security and it causes infections. Has anyone heard of the connection to SA and the topical flea and tick stuff? I just learned of this ...


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Yes, I have heard of problems - false positives and (right now my brain can only come up with inconclusive, but that isn't the correct word) results.

Also, supposedly other dermatis issues.

R.E. that tree. I find it, I'll get you a branch!


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Yes, I have heard of problems - false positives and (right now my brain can only come up with inconclusive, but that isn't the correct word) results.
> 
> Also, supposedly other dermatis issues.
> 
> R.E. that tree. I find it, I'll get you a branch!


Yes this is what I am hearing too... It comes back as SA and it is not ....So false positives sound right ....

Thanks for the branch you are a trooper ...  :adore::adore:


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

_I did not hear that. Another new thing I have learned. Thank you.

I take a sprig if you can spare it too! _


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

Your welcome Tabatha, I'm hoping my money tree comes in the form of a debonair older gentlemen (preferably a judge...>.>) hehehe <3

And I hadn't ever heard of that causing SA...I have however heard a theory that basically says SA is some form of a mite, that all dogs are exposed to...but because of a dogs reduced immune system (a pedigree that may have produced SA/been affected) that's how they become affected...it's very interesting but I'm not sure how valid the theory truly is

Sub-clinical?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Clarification. Doesn't cause SA! Causes a bad/poor/negative or inconclusive histological report. 

From my iPhone


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Thanks Tabs I guess I did not explain false positive very well  Here are a couple of quick reads on this disease  One of them surprisingly talks about the* topical flea* treatment clearing up this disorder. So two schools of thought here....

Sebaceous Adenitis (SA)
Poodle Health Registry Breed/Disease Listing!
In the article written by "*Dr. Dunstan's current research includes studies of human sebaceous glands using lipid-analysis techniques that--like DNA technology--have advanced dramatically. He thinks development of an SA test using this approach would now be possible. *" It clearly talks about the gland involvement with this disorder. I am not sure how this can be translated to mites? I would love to read about that please post the article.


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## Dogsinstyle (Sep 6, 2009)

There has been a theory put forth that the cheyletiella mite (walking dandruff) was a cause for some SA cases- and the cure for that is of course ivermectin. I don't know where I heard about it, either a list or one of the poodle mags, but it was floating around a number of years ago.
If I run across the info I will post it, but my memory fails me as to the original source.
Carole


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

NOLA Standards said:


> Yes, I have heard of problems - false positives and (right now my brain can only come up with inconclusive, but that isn't the correct word) results.
> 
> Also, supposedly other dermatis issues.
> 
> R.E. that tree. I find it, I'll get you a branch!


I believe the word you are looking for might be equivocal?


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I know the person I heard it from is a well known breeder here in Ohio, where she learned the information I'm not sure...everything I've ever read on SA (and am reading right now...) doesn't lean one way or another on a cause of it


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Carole perhaps this would explain the topical Flea treatment working in this case...
And @ Chocolate Millie perhaps..... I have been told false positive...This definition sure sounds right . 
e·quiv·o·cal (-kwv-kl)
adj.
1. Open to two or more interpretations and often intended to mislead; ambiguous. See Synonyms at ambiguous.
2. Of uncertain significance.
3. Of a doubtful or uncertain nature.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Looking on the Internet I don't see a mention of mites as a possible cause. Instead it is lumped under autoimmune - the catch all when they can't figure something else.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Thanks, CM. Yes - the word was equivocal.

English major - former Ad Exec - but after a 3 day show I find my own name hard to recall :alberteinstein: 

Congrats on Tiger, BTW!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Do we have a general consensus on the best age to breed? And what about testing? What is imperative, what is quite important, and what is not important at all?


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## Apres Argent (Aug 9, 2010)

There was an article in Poodle Variety a few years ago. They used Revolution
and say that he cleared up. He is listed as affected on PHR.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Would you have any idea how we could post a link to that article Denise?


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## spoospirit (Mar 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Do we have a general consensus on the best age to breed? And what about testing? What is imperative, what is quite important, and what is not important at all?


_I'm think I am seeing a pattern of breeding after the age of two with the exception being a dog that the owner is going to special. In that case, most seem to feel that having the dog put a litter on the ground to prove himself before the serious investment is put into him is accpetable.

I'm not sure what the general consensus is on testing other than that everyone seems to agree that testing needs to be done before breeding; thank goodness. No one has really listed what they think is at the top of the list going down in importance. _


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoospirit said:


> _I'm think I am seeing a pattern of breeding after the age of two with the exception being a dog that the owner is going to special. In that case, most seem to feel that having the dog put a litter on the ground to prove himself before the serious investment is put into him is accpetable.
> 
> I'm not sure what the general consensus is on testing other than that everyone seems to agree that testing needs to be done before breeding; thank goodness. No one has really listed what they think is at the top of the list going down in importance. _


Do you think we should? Not so long ago, on this forum, sebaceous adenitis was one of the tests everyone was encouraged to do. Now it seems most are reconsidering its importance. Why is that?


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*Very long Rant about SA*



ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Do you think we should? Not so long ago, on this forum, sebaceous adenitis was one of the tests everyone was encouraged to do. Now it seems most are reconsidering its importance. Why is that?


ON THE SOAPBOX 

The Versatility in Poodles Website describes the health testing a *reputable breeder* will do on Standard Poodles at http://www.vipoodle.org/PDF_Files/TestsforStandardPoodles.pdf

*Every standard poodle breeder should be doing SA testing* after the dog/bitch is two years of age and then yearly after that. A bitch does not necessarily need to be done yearly but within a year of breeding. A dog used for public stud should be done on a yearly basis. *SA is a horrible disease* and many dogs affected have secondary skin infections that can be deadly if not looked after.

I can not understand how people, especially poodle breeders, find this test so horrible. They must have *poor vets* with *unsatisfactory sterile or aseptic technique*. You allow, even require, your puppy people to spay and neuter, which must be done under a general anaesthesia, but are afraid of a biopsy done with local freezing - I can not figure out this type of thinking!

Some say it is only a *snapshot at the moment* but what do you think yearly eye exams are for? Or tests for Thryoid or Addisons? A picture of healthy sebaceous glands at one point of time is better than putting your head in the sand about SA and its ability to affect your puppies. 

_This paragraph is tongue in cheek_ - I suppose you don't do yearly eye tests either? Did you know the drops they put in the dogs eyes for eye tests sting? And not only that but having your eyes dilated is painful if you are near any light. Oh ya the opthamologist uses a really bright light to look in the poodles eyes!!! Talk about cruelty. 

I have watched over 25 biopsies on my own dogs. Never an infection or a dog bothered by the procedure or the stitch. The biopsy should only be 6 mm. An American dime is 10 mm, so the size is approx half of a dime. The biopsy usually only needs one stitch to close the wound. A minimum of two biopsies is required but more are not needed unless the dog shows signs of a skin disorder. My poodles have never flinched with this test. 

Here- I have googled some pictures of poodle with SA for you. I really like the pictures at the mobile home woman even tho her dog is not a poodle.

Health - Coralness Standard Poodles scroll to bottom of the page

Test breedings reveal inheritance mode of SA, DMS - DVM three quarters down the page a picture of a SA poodle

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/projects/dermpath/cases/seb/seb9.htm just open the link can't miss it

A day at the Moby Dog Spa | The Mobile Home Woman some really decent pictures of what the skin looks like - but not poodle

Sebaceous Adenitis | Animal Health Trust the most up to date genetic information

*Breeder Guidelines for Sebaceous Adenitis from OFA website*

_Two factors make SA particularly difficult for breeders to control: the possible *late onset* of the disease, and the *subclinical state* of the disease. With late onset, the dog may have already been bred long before it ever shows clinical signs of the disease. In its subclinical state, an owner may be unaware that the animal is affected since it shows no visible signs of the disease.

The challenge in controlling the disorder is in identifying dogs as clear, carriers, or affecteds. DNA testing remains the "gold standard" in terms of identifying a dog's genotype, however, at present there is no DNA test to determine a dog's status with regard to SA. Today's best alternative is the phenotypic evaluation through the skin biopsy. As enough phenotypic information on families of dogs is entered into the database, breeders will be able to make educated assumptions on a dog's genotype. This will allow breeders to apply greater selective pressure in controlling and reducing the incidence of the disease.
_

OFF MY SOAPBOX NOW

In my opinion a standard poodle, either male or female, should not be bred until two years of age. My rational is based on the maturity of the species. The longer you wait the more accurate your health testing will be. A miniature or toy poodle could be bred after 18 months as they mature quicker than standards but they live longer than standard so why not wait until they are at least two.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

Breeders:

This isn't actually a theoretical question...but it's something I've been compiling...

How many SA Clear animals do you have/have you bred/are you aware of that have produced SA? 

How many animals bred well beyond 2 years of age have produced Addisons? SA? (throw in any other diseases you would like) Again, that you know of/that you have bred? Do you know any "youngsters" that have/haven't?


I ask about SA because it seems to be a soap box for us - though we do stand with strong emotions on different sides of it. 

I ask about the Addisons because it has very much affected the red lines - and still is AND because a dear friend of mine has just experienced Addisons with 2 different bitchs from 2 entirely different lines BOTH out of mature (bitch was 5 and sire was 8) adults.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards

A CERF compared to an SA test - well there is no real comparision. CERF is an organization/foundation that collects data on purebred animals with a goal of eliminating heritable diseases. The CERF test is to diagnose and report heritable diseases based on guidelines established by two entities. CERF provides diagnostics, should there be an issue deemed heritable and CERF builds, as the foundation keeps a database - even if the owner checks the results be kept private.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

NOLA Standards said:


> Breeders:
> 
> This isn't actually a theoretical question...but it's something I've been compiling...
> 
> ...


What ??? Please explain ....Of course cerf is a certifiable test ...Please explain the rest of your post as it make no sense at all to me ....


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

They are questions for breeders.

Take them one at a time - answer for yourself. They are to provoke thought - not to air anyone's "laundry".

The CERF comment was in response to comparing CERF testing to SA testing. CERF tests are performed to diagnose different heriditable diseases and CERF is a foundation CANINE EYE REGISTRY FOUNDATION that tests for occular disorders and maintains unform standards with the CERF registrations. I'm all but quoting CERF - CERF Information (Brochure).

Wish there were a SA foundation. Then the testing might be more reliable. OR maybe they would come up with a test that is truly diagnostic.


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## bigredpoodle (Sep 13, 2009)

Ahhh I see and the answer is ? 
_How many SA Clear animals do you have/have you bred/are you aware of that have produced SA? Were the parents tested?

How many animals well beyond 2 years have produced Addisons? SA? (throw in any other diseases you would like) Again, that you know of/that you have bred?


I ask about SA because it seems to be a soap box for us - though we do stand with strong emotions on different sides of it.
_
For me 0.... And You ?


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

question was have you bred or are you aware of....


Double digits for SA - across the color spectrum -surprisingly no red or partis tho they likely exist. Parents all SA Clear. 

Double digits for Addisons - again across the color spectrum - sires and dams well beyond 2. Seems to pop up in canines around a year +. 

Bloat double digits as well - includes partis

Bite in single digits 

Seizures - single digits but headed into double - across the color spectrum

And I've only been active in poodles and meeting breeders and researching pedigrees for 3+ years. Imagine what someone with some real history knows! 

Annie is expecting what will be my second litter. I was incredibly fortunate with my first litter, and everyone so far is happy and healthy, but I realize that as breeders we are rolling the dice and hoping and praying for the best.

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

> some form of a mite, that all dogs are exposed to...but because of a dogs reduced immune system...


Maybe you were thinking of something else but this is the description for Demodectic mange.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

NOLA Standards said:


> Breeders:
> 
> How many SA Clear animals do you have/have you bred/are you aware of that have produced SA?
> 
> ...


*Clear dog*s that have *produced SA - 1.* The dog tested clear at age 10 but he produced 2 subclinical poodles. Subclinical means these poodles did not show signs of SA like losing hair but that they were affected on a cellular level. That is why SA testing is so necessary to prevent subclinical dogs from being bred.

I do not understand why CERF is not comparable to SA? 
From the OFA website: _CERF was founded by a group of concerned, purebred owner/breeders who recognized that the quality of their dog's lives were being affected by heritable eye disease._ Do you not think that OFA's database is maintained to eliminate disease?

Can you please tell me why you are so against this test? I would like to know how to better educate more poodle owners. Thank you.


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## NOLA Standards (Apr 11, 2010)

The way I feel right now - and please bear in mind that a really good argument could cause me to re-evalute - since I am always trying to learn and improve - is that performing the test creates a false sense of security.

Consider:

Some of the *accurate* and *reliable* testing we have available to us:

VWD - Carrier or not (or affected). 
Hips - graded - though the test is done at 2 and often not again after. 
CERF Testing - identifies specific heriditable diseases accurately. 
PRA - Carrier or not (or affected). 
Cardiac can also provide a specific diagnoses AND the foundation is now compiling research data.

The majority of the testing we do gives a true indication as to whether or not the animal is viable as a breeding animal. 

On the other hand, SA tests only for the moment - and I can offer a list of animals who tested SA CLEAR yet have produced SA in their offspring.

To me - that means the test isn't worth so much. In fact, it might be dangerous. Especially to those who would get an SA Clear and take that to be their "All Clear." 

NOW...the other side of the argument is that more is better. (more testing) To a degree I subscribe to that. Annie has 3 CERF evaluations, B has 2, Lombardi and Irma and Rose have already had one, Ruby had 2. I prelim hips (with OFA) and follow after 2 with the official OFA Hip Evaluation. Annie has had 2 thryoid tests, Ruby had 2, B has already had one. Everytest I have done, and repeated except for the SA.

The SA required a pressure bandage on Ruby's neck. There were 3 punches 6mm each - stitches in each hole. At the time I was a bit surprised at the carnage, but didn't dwell too much on it UNTIL my dermatologist decided she would check me for SA. _just checking to see if you were still with me! _ 

My dermatologist actually wanted to test an area on my side - and I said yes. Three punches later it would have hurt less to have something actually cut off!

So for me... I am FEELING the pain - KNOWING animals SA Clear producing SA (and if the test were accurate and viable HOW???!! does that happen?) and deciding I will vote with the only thing that makes the world pay attention. My Almighty Dollah.

Instead of something that makes us feel good (now I'm talking about emotions, not that stinging itching pain of a hole in my side/neck), how about a test that actually indicates whether or not we should be breeding the animal? 

We all SA Punch away - cause we are supposed to. To the point it's almost peer pressure. And all the while - a SA Clear in no way clears the animal or its offspring of SA. It's still lurking and I had better be VERY careful - cause there are a LOT of SA CLEAR animals producing SA. And we know - hush hush can be the words! 

I'm not saying I'll never do the punch again. But time is going to have to fade the memory of my own "punch" and I'm going to need to hear some better reports than I have been hearing.

And in the meantime - maybe enough breeders will demand a reliable test. If we are happy with what we have, we certainly won't ever get anything different.

MHO for all that it's worth!

Tabatha
NOLA Standards


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