# standard, mini, toy service dog?



## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

I will ask the moderators to move your post to the Poodle Service dog forum. Hope that some of your questions will be answered there - you can ask away - poodle community here is great.








Poodle Service Dogs


The place to ask about and discuss service dog topics.




www.poodleforum.com


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Welcome, @Johnpdlvr! We’re happy to have you. I’m so sorry you lost your beloved companion and service dog.  I imagine she’s left a mighty big hole in your life.

Who will be training your next poodle?

Spoos, as I’m sure you recall, can take quite a long time to mentally mature. Without knowing your body size/type, I imagine it would also be hard to find one large and sturdy enough to perform brace and balance work. Since your son will be a primary caregiver, I might defer to his request for a smaller pup this time around, but of course you’re the only one who can ultimately decide.

My last girl was half miniature poodle and could absolutely have performed some service tasks with proper training. She was loyal, intuitive, and eager to please. She could do pretty much anything I asked of her, and as long as she had a job to do, she thrived. She was a sweet and steady companion who spent many days in the dark with me (literally) as I navigated the after effects of a head injury.

I think your best bet would be to discuss your needs with a breeder to ensure the best possible match. Here’s a good place to start if you don’t already have some leads: 🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

I think that a mini would absolutely be able to do SOME tasks to qualify as service dogs. But they will be limited to what they can PHYSICALLY accomplish. IE: a toy or mini could not do any mobility work, would be limited in what they could pick up and carry, etc etc. 

I think it really depends on what you're looking to have this dog do, as well as where you plan to obtain this dog from. Breeder? Are you looking for a puppy, or an adult? Will this dog be trained for you? 

I think a Mini would be better if you're "downsizing". They at least have a bit more substance to them and aren't as fragile. A Toy may be too small to do much of anything and could, theoretically, be injured trying to even jump off a couch. 

My boss has a Toy and i can't really see it being of much use as a service dog, except maybe as some sort of alerting dog? He can't reach anything, can't jump up/down, can't even retrieve anything (her cell phone is bigger than his head for example). My Kiley was a mini mix and she could at least reach lower tables (coffee table), she could pick up most things, and i trained her to open easy doors so....

Of course, it's all going to depend on what you can find. A good breeder who produces dogs with the right temperament and drive or a rescue/organization that can provide you with one.


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## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

I think a mini might be more suitable. Their larger size reduces their chance of injury, and they are also able to reach things more easily. I assume you might want one to cuddle next to you on the couch and hop off to retrieve the TV remote if you drop it. Some toys are so delicately built that they really shouldn't jump off the couch multiple times a day.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Welcome, @Johnpdlvr! We’re happy to have you. I’m so sorry you lost your beloved companion and service dog.  I imagine she’s left a mighty big hole in your life.

Who will be training your next poodle?

Spoos, as I’m sure you recall, can take quite a long time to mentally mature. Without knowing your body size/type, I imagine it would also be hard to find one large and sturdy enough to perform brace and balance work. Since your son will be a primary caregiver, I might defer to his request for a smaller pup this time around, but of course you’re the only one who can ultimately decide.

My last girl was half miniature poodle and could absolutely have performed some service tasks with proper training. She was loyal, intuitive, and eager to please. She could do pretty much anything I asked of her, and as long as she had a job to do, she thrived. She was a sweet and steady companion who spent many days in the dark with me (literally) as I navigated the after effects of a head injury.

I think your best bet would be to discuss your needs with a breeder to ensure the best possible match. Here’s a good place to start if you don’t already have some leads: 🐩 Breeders Listed by Location 🐩 Plus Additional Resources 🐩
[/QUOTE]

Thank you, she left a huge hole. I miss her so much. 

I would train my new dog myself. I can train the tasks I need pretty well, as I did my other dogs. But socializing would be the hard part for me, since I can't go out. My son would do his best, but between his own schedule and covid, it is something I'm concerned about.

Yes, they do take a while to mature! Poodles are such such goofy dogs, but also so empathetic and loyal, and so steady once they get what the job is. I love them. 

I know I'd have to wait until even a standard was physically mature before they could do any real mobility or balance work. I'm a pretty short guy, about 5'5" (maybe even less since I've gotten older, kind of scared to check!), and about 135 pounds. I don't need a dog to physically move me along, it's more balance, and that's not constant. My other dog did also counterbalance me when I needed to reach something, she'd stand on my bed and I could count on her to steady me as I reached. I don't know if even a good sized mini could do that, but I have to respect what my son needs too. It's such a hard decision. Do I go for a smaller dog and get the companionship and help with fetching things, or be lonely longer while I hope to get stronger?

Your half mini sounds wonderful! I also had a head injury years ago, having a dog to be with me while I healed would have been so good. I hope your injury healed quickly.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

TK9NY said:


> I think that a mini would absolutely be able to do SOME tasks to qualify as service dogs. But they will be limited to what they can PHYSICALLY accomplish. IE: a toy or mini could not do any mobility work, would be limited in what they could pick up and carry, etc etc.
> 
> I think it really depends on what you're looking to have this dog do, as well as where you plan to obtain this dog from. Breeder? Are you looking for a puppy, or an adult? Will this dog be trained for you?
> 
> ...


Thanks, that is good insight. I've not been around toys, so I don't really have a good idea of what they can do. It sounds like bringing my my shoes and would be too much for a toy.

I think I'd prefer adult, I know puppies are a LOT of work, but I'm open to whatever I can find, as long as health and temperament are solid. I guess what I need to decide is whether my desire for companionship outweighs my need for help with balance right now. It's been months since I lost my girl, and I live on my own, she was such a good friend.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I wonder if there are some other tools you could try for balance help. I’ve recently been looking into walkers and rollators for my own mobility challenges, even as I sigh with longing when I think about having a giant breed as a service dog. Maybe someday.

If you could satisfy your balance needs elsewhere, you’d certainly expand your companionship options and possibly expedite the process.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

cowpony said:


> I think a mini might be more suitable. Their larger size reduces their chance of injury, and they are also able to reach things more easily. I assume you might want one to cuddle next to you on the couch and hop off to retrieve the TV remote if you drop it. Some toys are so delicately built that they really shouldn't jump off the couch multiple times a day.


That makes sense. Toys do seem kind of fragile to me. But cute!


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

PeggyTheParti said:


> I wonder if there are some other tools you could try for balance help. I’ve recently been looking into walkers and rollators for my own mobility challenges, even as I sigh with longing when I think about having a giant breed as a service dog. Maybe someday.
> 
> If you could satisfy your balance needs elsewhere, you’d certainly expand your companionship options and possibly expedite the process.



That is helpful! If I can separate the needs it will feel less confusing. What about the hug factor? Are minis as comforting as standards when it comes to lying next to a person?

I do have a power wheelchair. It's so big I can't take it many places I want to go, no way to get it in my car. I have a manual chair that I use for doctor visits. I have a walker too, but one time I was reaching for something and it fell over on my bare foot, left a huge bruise. Rollators sound possible though.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

A large mini or small spoo might fit your needs. I would be upfront about what you looking for - I didn't really have that choice - got Asta from a place that would be a stop sign if only I knew before getting Asta. I first thought of Asta as ESA but I never thought of him as a service dog. Folks here on the forum corrected me. He performed a specific response to command and act for my need at the moment. 
The start to my journey is at:








"Help Me" command worked in crisis


Hi all. I have been training Asta to go to my DH and bring him to me when I am in difficulty. Today I went into a real bipolar tailspin and told Asta, " Help me, Help me" He dutifully went to get my DH but it turns out he was outside at the grill - Asta rang his potty bells, scratched on the...




www.poodleforum.com




Now I am posting the latest about training here: Asta's training thread

Please understand that I am still very much exploring the ways he can help me. Terrific guidance by all those who have helped me come so far. There are people here who are so generous in helping me and others. Noodling in the sub-forum is a good way to begin. Just about every post contains great wisdom from those folks.

Other aside when I sent to pick out a puppy, Asta immediately was curious, confident and full of himself.
And I would start making a list of tasks your dog may perform with you and your son.

Know you will have to work very hard on this - Start with obedience . Lots of folks start by getting a CGC. 
Continue on in your search and know that we are here to help. I would like to follow along (as I am sure others will want to)

So keep us posted.


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Hi!

My dog, Apple, is being trained for fun in some behaviors that are kind-of service oriented. She is a teeny miniature poodle. She is just over 10" at the shoulder, so about the height of a large toy but with sturdier bone structure. She can pick up a dropped credit card or pen or piece of paper, but struggles with larger or heavier items. For reference, a regular sized tennis ball is difficult for her to put in her mouth. She could only carry my phone if I have an adaptive handle stuck on it for her to grab it, my phone is just too wide and heavy without it. I am confident I could teach her to get my TV remotes, which are a thinner shape she could grab. Perhaps my biggest bane is she cannot be taught to fetch a drink for me from the fridge. (Maybe a juice box from a mini fridge. LOL)

I also have taught her to open and close doors, cabinet doors, and drawers. Drawers that are not light and on easy gliding rails are impossible for her. She cannot open a regular interior door as she is too short and light. She can SOMETIMES close a lightweight interior door on good working hinges. She cannot reach handicap accessible buttons to open doors in public.

With that being said.... she fits beautifully on my lap. She is a nice comfortable weight sleeping on my chest when I lay down if I let her. I think she could fit under the seat to fly in a plane with me. When we eat out at restaurants, she fits easily under my chair or the table and out of the way. Grooming her is less expensive, time consuming, and easier to manage due to her size. At almost a year old, she is maturing beautifully and what I love most about her is her amazing personality that was matched so well to our household. She is much easier to handle than SPOOs of a similar age that I've met.

I don't think I'd recommend a toy. They are very fragile - even a toy who is as large as my dog Apple is much more fragile. You can just see their bone structure is so much more delicate. Were I in your shoes, I'd be tempted towards a mini, albeit one larger than my teeny girl. That SPOO energy can be a lot for the first couple of years.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Asta's Mom said:


> A large mini or small spoo might fit your needs. I would be upfront about what you looking for - I didn't really have that choice - got Asta from a place that would be a stop sign if only I knew before getting Asta. I first thought of Asta as ESA but I never thought of him as a service dog. Folks here on the forum corrected me. He performed a specific response to command and act for my need at the moment.
> The start to my journey is at:
> 
> 
> ...


That was really interesting! How amazing Asta is, and your training too!


ThePoodlesMoody said:


> Hi!
> 
> My dog, Apple, is being trained for fun in some behaviors that are kind-of service oriented. She is a teeny miniature poodle. She is just over 10" at the shoulder, so about the height of a large toy but with sturdier bone structure. She can pick up a dropped credit card or pen or piece of paper, but struggles with larger or heavier items. For reference, a regular sized tennis ball is difficult for her to put in her mouth. She could only carry my phone if I have an adaptive handle stuck on it for her to grab it, my phone is just too wide and heavy without it. I am confident I could teach her to get my TV remotes, which are a thinner shape she could grab. Perhaps my biggest bane is she cannot be taught to fetch a drink for me from the fridge. (Maybe a juice box from a mini fridge. LOL)
> 
> ...


10" seems so tiny! The smallest mini we've had was 14" at the shoulder. That is so cool she's learning so much. Thank you for the input on what she can and can't do physically, and for the ways she's different from a standard. I like the easier grooming and portability, and the comforting weight. And minis calm down sooner than a standard pup does? Do you know why that is?


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Asta's Mom said:


> A large mini or small spoo might fit your needs. I would be upfront about what you looking for - I didn't really have that choice - got Asta from a place that would be a stop sign if only I knew before getting Asta. I first thought of Asta as ESA but I never thought of him as a service dog. Folks here on the forum corrected me. He performed a specific response to command and act for my need at the moment.
> The start to my journey is at:
> 
> 
> ...


Oops. Wasn't done replying when I hit sent. New to this system. Is there a way to reply that doesn't include the whole post I'm answering?

Yes, obedience is a really good place to start. My service dogs started out with sit, come, down, stay and went on to leave it, give, take it, quiet (just a finger to my lips for that command), focus, get me that (whatever I was pointing to), find it, fetch, forward, backward, mat, chin, heel, wait, and (when they were mature enough physically) brace, pull, and balance. They knew the names of things I needed too, at least some, like shoe, sock, things like that. Those were the ones I used every day. I didn't use tuck under much, but that does seem like it would be easier for a mini to get under a chair or table than a standard. It does take a lot of work, but it is so worth it. Some of those things would work with a mini. I don't think the mobility stuff would though. I do miss brace, that was so handy.

Thank you for the welcome! And for sharing your journey, and the pointers about the difference between ESA and SD. I will be hanging around this forum a lot, I can tell.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Shoot, I forgot I taught the dogs to pee and poop on command too. That was very handy! And my last SD, my girl, was so polite about puking, she'd run to my door and stand there, waiting to go outside to throw up. Such a sweetie.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

I have a minipoo that I trained to be a mobility service dog. She can pick up objects that I drop on the floor. I can not use her to steady myself etc. as she too small and too lightweight. She’s around 15” at the withers. 

Like most others with service dogs on PF, she’s earned her AKC Canine Good Citizen (CGC) as well as more advanced obedience titles (I participate in several dog sports with her). I did a lot of training inside stores so she will walk close to me with a cart, even backing up when we hit a blocked narrow aisle which is not part of CGC. I always get comments about how well behaved she is, or “is she a service dog” because I trained her to be a service dog. But I like having her “pass” the CGC if anyone would question her training since I trained her myself as a service dog. I realize however she is obviously well trained which is why no one questions whether she’s trained or not. Instead they see a dog who sits and waits to go through a door into or out of a store, a dog who sits without a cue and stays seated while I’m waiting to pay etc. 

She can pick up credit cards, receipts, pens and my phone. I haven’t tried heavier larger more awkward objects like bottled water. I think a spoo would be a better choice because I do have to lean over to get something out of her mouth and they could pick up heavier objects

OTOH she doesn’t need as much room in the car. She uses one seat leaving room for 2 people in the backseat.


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## Asta's Mom (Aug 20, 2014)

Johnpdlvr - an impressive list of commands helpful for you.
Skylar - consider you one of my mentors - still did not know that Babykins was a service dog for you - you are a marvelous trainer and Babykins must help you so much.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Skylar said:


> I have a minipoo that I trained to be a mobility service dog. She can pick up objects that I drop on the floor. I can not use her to steady myself etc. as she too small and too lightweight. She’s around 15” at the withers.
> 
> Like most others with service dogs on PF, she’s earned her AKC Canine Good Citizen (CGC) as well as more advanced obedience titles (I participate in several dog sports with her). I did a lot of training inside stores so she will walk close to me with a cart, even backing up when we hit a blocked narrow aisle which is not part of CGC. I always get comments about how well behaved she is, or “is she a service dog” because I trained her to be a service dog. But I like having her “pass” the CGC if anyone would question her training since I trained her myself as a service dog. I realize however she is obviously well trained which is why no one questions whether she’s trained or not. Instead they see a dog who sits and waits to go through a door into or out of a store, a dog who sits without a cue and stays seated while I’m waiting to pay etc.
> 
> ...


Thank you, that is very helpful info. Specifics like that will help me decide. 

My girl didn't have her official CGC, I never did get her officially tested. I will my next one, if I can, with covid and all. I'm not sure how to do training outside my home. My son could handle that, I'm sure, though I do worry that that might mess up the service dog/owner bond.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Asta's Mom said:


> Johnpdlvr - an impressive list of commands helpful for you.
> Skylar - consider you one of my mentors - still did not know that Babykins was a service dog for you - you are a marvelous trainer and Babykins must help you so much.


Thanks, we did a lot of work together before I was so restricted. She learned so fast. I only had to show or tell her a couple of times, and she had it. Poodles are amazing.


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Asta's Mom said:


> Skylar - consider you one of my mentors - still did not know that Babykins was a service dog for you - you are a marvelous trainer and Babykins must help you so much.


Ah, thanks so much for the compliment, I really appreciate it.



Johnpdlvr said:


> My son could handle that, I'm sure, though I do worry that that might mess up the service dog/owner bond.


I really don't think it's a problem - it's an excellent idea for your son to train your dog for all the obedience behavior expected of a service dog. You train the specific service tasks and getting your dog to focus on you- your dog will bond with you.

There are many service dog programs that have puppies raised and trained in volunteer homes- they assess the puppies and move those with the right temperament into training for service work by many different trainers - once the dog is trained, the person requiring a service dog is then introduced to the dog and goes through a short period of training with the dog. In your case I think you have the advantage of being involved with your dog from the beginning along with your son.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Skylar said:


> Ah, thanks so much for the compliment, I really appreciate it.
> 
> 
> I really don't think it's a problem - it's an excellent idea for your son to train your dog for all the obedience behavior expected of a service dog. You train the specific service tasks and getting your dog to focus on you- your dog will bond with you.
> ...


I'd forgotten about things like guide dog puppy raisers. Thank you, that's encouraging!


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## ThePoodlesMoody (Nov 2, 2020)

Yes, minis do settle before standards. Larger breeds hit social maturity later than smaller breeds. BUT, with that said, even if a standard and a mini matured at the exact same rate, well, it's still easier to deal with the mini. Chewing, biting, barking, chasing, jumping, intense energy needs, leash handling, etc are all just going to be more difficult to handle when they come in a bigger package with the spoo, especially if you are struggling with mobility.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

I hadn't thought of that really, but it makes sense. Thank you.


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## Click-N-Treat (Nov 9, 2015)

Service dog of the year 1999 was a papillon named Peek. So, tiny toy dogs can be service dogs. The bigger issue is in public. Bringing such a small dog around shopping carts would make me nervous. Peek's handler used a powerchair and Peek would sit on her lap.

Depending on what mobility work you need done, a miniature poodle can fetch things, carry small items. My dog is an oversized miniature/very small standard at 16 inches at the withers. But, she does diabetes alerts, which is quite different work than mobility tasks. The advantage of a smaller service dog is people have to bend down to pet her, which gives me time to tell them to leave her alone.

Define the tasks you need done in order of importance to function and then decide on the dog's size. All dogs take a long time to mature and forcing service dog work on a puppy can backfire. Let the puppy mature as a well adjusted normal puppy before you start any kind of work. In other words, don't ask a kindergarten student to do AP calculus.


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## Johnpdlvr (Aug 14, 2021)

Click-N-Treat said:


> Service dog of the year 1999 was a papillon named Peek. So, tiny toy dogs can be service dogs. The bigger issue is in public. Bringing such a small dog around shopping carts would make me nervous. Peek's handler used a powerchair and Peek would sit on her lap.
> 
> Depending on what mobility work you need done, a miniature poodle can fetch things, carry small items. My dog is an oversized miniature/very small standard at 16 inches at the withers. But, she does diabetes alerts, which is quite different work than mobility tasks. The advantage of a smaller service dog is people have to bend down to pet her, which gives me time to tell them to leave her alone.
> 
> Define the tasks you need done in order of importance to function and then decide on the dog's size. All dogs take a long time to mature and forcing service dog work on a puppy can backfire. Let the puppy mature as a well adjusted normal puppy before you start any kind of work. In other words, don't ask a kindergarten student to do AP calculus.


That's a good point about having more time to ask people not to pet! My other dogs wore vests that made most people leave them alone, but they were standards. Most of the things I'd need a dog to get for me are smaller, pencils, papers, things I drop, but some would be heavier, like water bottles, shoes, cell phone in a case. Would a bigger mini be able to handle those? I agree, I have to be patient before a new dog can do much work for me, but I'm sure I can make do with just hugs and snuggles until they grow up.


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## ChrisH (6 mo ago)

Johnpdlvr said:


> That's a good point about having more time to ask people not to pet! My other dogs wore vests that made most people leave them alone, but they were standards. Most of the things I'd need a dog to get for me are smaller, pencils, papers, things I drop, but some would be heavier, like water bottles, shoes, cell phone in a case. Would a bigger mini be able to handle those? I agree, I have to be patient before a new dog can do much work for me, but I'm sure I can make do with just hugs and snuggles until they grow up.


Hi there, I was gifted a moyen puppy 11 years ago to be trained as a service dog (for both gait and migraine alerts) and although he never made it he is a great companion dog and will alert to anyone coming on our property. I would add that he is around 28 lbs and stands 23 inch's at the shoulders. This puts him a size where I can easily wash him in the oversized laundry sink. As to gait work, with a harness and lead he does steady me slightly but I would not be able to rely on him 100%. As to migraine alerts, well that's not going to happen. Even in basic training the trainer, who helped setup a local service dog training program at a women's prison, was telling me he's not going to make it and I should return him to the breeder but my thought was cradle to grave do the best you can with what you've got I'm not perfect either so...
Good luck with your search,
Chris


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