# Basic help please for dry dog food ingredients



## Muma-parti-spoo (Jul 19, 2012)

Hello
We don't even have our wee girl yet but Ive been researching the different brands of dry dog food available.
We live in New Zealand an most of the great brands I've seen mentioned in this topic are not available in nz. (there are other brands made here in nz that probably aren't available overseas) anyway...
In basic terms, how do I know what food is good? What % of crude protein is reccommended for a standard poodle? Is chicken meal better than beef meal? 

Heres an example of an ingredients list; "beef meal,ground corn,brown rice,blood meal,fish meal, flax seed meal, tallow (preserved with Vit c and e as natural tocopherols, rosemary and citric acid) , fish oil for the correct balance of omega 3 & 6, agrimoss (natural prebiotic), salt, kelp (a natural source of chelated minerals), oregano, rosemary, garlic, yucca schidigera, added vitamins and chelated minerals"

I would love to know please what your opinions of this list is please! Or any other advice


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## kimberlygino (Jul 26, 2012)

hi I think you should look into BARF diet for your dog. biological appropriate raw food. because dry food has preservatives and due to commercilization, even vets are recommending it now. you should read The Herbal Guidebook for Dogs and Cats by the world renown herbalist- Juliette de barcalli levy. read it and you will believe  

I know it's difficult to believe but dogs immune system and digestive system are designed in a way to digest raw meat. the short digestive system is for the raw food to be excreted (if needed) to prevent decay. the strif digestive food are to digest raw food. the teeth, your dogs teeth are meant for tearing! 

raw food can only last for a few months but dry food? years!!! due to preservatives of high sodium. this will cause kidney failure... 

should read up more. ESP that book. my golden retriver exceeded his life span of 15 years and has never consulted the vet. he was on dry food since young. should read up more bout it. 

just an advice from my heart. I only want the best for all dogs out there. vets are too commercialize out there... 


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## kimberlygino (Jul 26, 2012)

the strong digestive juice* typo


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## kimberlygino (Jul 26, 2012)

some dry food might be better as compared to some because it is made of grains instead of rice. that will only be a short term solution for a long term problem. 

periodontal problems such as toothache will be prevalent if dry food are being fed. just a word of caution. vets is a billion dollar industry.... 

the dog food might state chicken... but it contains dead carcasses and chicken claws. this are oso part or chicken isn't it? read up raw meaty bones by Tom londsale. he is a vet who got stripped off his Aussie verinerary board because he question the board about dry food. the vets felt that he knew too much and strip him off. he wrote a book to express the real truth. pls it's for your own good 


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Visit this site and start reading! Lots of good info about evaluating dog foods in general, as well as discussion of individual brands.

The Five Most Important Items on Any Dog Food Ingredients List

It's important to be able to read a label and tell if it's a good food or not. The list you posted doesn't impress me: corn and rice within the top three ingredients?

Myself, I feed raw and have for years. There's ample info about raw feeding on the net; here's one site. Raw Fed Dogs - Natural Prey Model Rawfeeding Diet But if you must feed kibble, pick a good one! 

--Q


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> Heres an example of an ingredients list; "beef meal,ground corn,brown rice,blood meal,fish meal, flax seed meal, tallow (preserved with Vit c and e as natural tocopherols, rosemary and citric acid) , fish oil for the correct balance of omega 3 & 6, agrimoss (natural prebiotic), salt, kelp (a natural source of chelated minerals), oregano, rosemary, garlic, yucca schidigera, added vitamins and chelated minerals"
> 
> I would love to know please what your opinions of this list is please! Or any other advice


It's not _awful_, but you could probably do better. I would avoid foods with corn or wheat in them. Tallow and blood meal sound like waste products thrown in to make up the volume. When fish ingredients are used, it's worth checking the manufacturer's website or emailing them to find out if the fish have been treated with ethoxyquin. This is a carcinogenic substance that is banned from human foods.

Re. replies about homemade food. I don't want to start a fight, but I will say this. If you want to feed homemade food to your dog, great, but do it for your dog's enjoyment and because you want to take responsibility for what it is eating, not for reasons of emotional blackmail. IMHO, Tom Lonsdale is a conspiracy theorist flogging self-published books. He was quite rightly struck off the veterinary board in his country because he was giving his patients advice that had no veterinary precedent and going around claiming the veterinary profession was a conspiracy out to harm pets. The b.a.r.f. man -- can't remember his name offhand -- is a real vet who developed his own pet food range, but just like all pet food manufacturers (who also employ vets to advise them), he is someone in business with a product to sell. There is no scientific evidence to the claim that commercial food will harm your dog over any other type of food. If you prefer to feed your dog dry food from a shop, there is nothing wrong with that.


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## kimberlygino (Jul 26, 2012)

in case you are wondering, i wasn't referring to BARF diet by Dr.B. i was just referring to BARF diet- raw diet on the whole. if you refer to what i said, i said biologically appropriate raw food. i meant raw food. from the market, the supermarket. as long as it's raw. & yes, i've to agree with you that Dr.B is just a vet promoting one of it's dog food like any other commercial brands out there. & recently there had been some ingredient change in the food and they had some agreement problems. the manufactuerer and Dr.B are not working together anymore. but whatever, that's not the case here. what i meant is raw food. 

as for tom lonsdale case, you may say that he was giving advice with no veterinary precedent. but the thing is, i have to state, if there is, there wouldn't be such a book and there wouldn't be dirty secrets uncovered. let me ask you a question, during the past, when there's no x-trays, what do vets depend on? when there are no blood test, when there are no allergy test, what do the vets depend on?? they don't depend on this. they use something called EXPERIENCE which many of them don't have yet. does not mean that you complete 6 years in veterinary school, you know everything at the finger tips. sometimes, you need experience. & it's true, vets are very commercialize and are really going around to harm pets. simply because their drug suppliers and dog food suppliers are the one 'sponsoring their course' if not, where do all the vets get their food from? arent these suppliers oso a manufacturer and someone in the biz to sell the product? it's a man eat man world. but don't get me wrong, vets are necessary in some situations such as an ememrgency fall, or an emergency to revive a dog... etc. yes, & afterall i do have to salute to them for studying 6 years in medicine school. but the question lies in, what they were instilled to learn, was it right from the beginning? 

i don't wish to persuade further neither do i want things to get ugly. i've saidd what i want to say. i'm a victim once and i'm sharing my experience for you mainly because i don't want you and your dog to suffer. i'm an animal lover. i don't have any ulterior motive- besides, ask yourself, what can i get? nothing. i've saidd what i can to persuade you further. & if you don't believe or have doubts, pls feel free to do it your way. you will know and regret this valuable information when the time comes. 

just to add, homecook food causes arthritis. & because it's been cooked, the enzymes are all destroyed and it cause harm to the dog instead. the muscular dog's stomach can't crush the (bones/flesh) properly and cause the organs to be not properly exercised. this might cause stomach ulceration... etc in due course. you know, you can't feed your dog cooked bones? or it will pierce through it's organs? 

and wait, pls take a step back and ask yourself this very important question. what do the wild dogs or dogs in the past survive on? homecook food by the cavemans? obviously not right? and where there such problems in the past? never. there was never such a problem whereby dog's have cancer, ulcerations... etc in the past. & their immunity system was much stonger then. i guess i have stated the obvious. 

thank you for your time. don't wish to say anymore. it's just to your loss if you don't treasure what i say. it comes from 20 years of experience. even Quossum earlier, agree and is feeding raw food. ask yourself, speak for yourself and make the right choice.


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## Muma-parti-spoo (Jul 19, 2012)

Ok I'll didn't know about the corn not being ideal.. Gosh I don't think I've seen one without corn in the top five ingredients! It's all a process of elimination I guess... Im looking for the one i feel is next best to Origen (that's sold in nz) but there seems to be a big jump from all the other foods to that one!

Thanks for the reply but I'm just enquiring about dry food at this stage :act-up:


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## Marcoislandmom (Mar 15, 2012)

Here is a quality dog food available in New Zealand. Orijen Petfoods NZ.

I feed the same brand in the US. There is a list of stockists on the upper right by island. Good luck.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I avoid anything with corn in it. Corn is used as a cheap filler and pretty much goes right through the dog. If you choose to feed a food with grain in it, try to make it wheat free. Brown rice, barley and the like are fine. Some people, like me, have decided to go completely grain free. With grain free kibbles, though, you have to have some kind of binder in them so you will find potatoe or sweet potato usually. I am not convinced that those are any better than brown rice, but the dogs like the grain free better. 

You want the majority of the food to be meat. Avoid Meat by products and look for any kind of meat MEAL. That is concentrated proteins. If whole chicken is the first ingredient keep in mind ingredients are listed by weight and there is a lot of water in whole chicken. I would rather see meal listed first and some kind of protein in two or three of the top five spots. You can expect to find the binder(in the below case- potato starch) in the top 5, but not in the first couple spots! Meat should be in the first couple spots, showing that they have the most weight in the food. In the below case you have meat, meat meal in two spots, potato starch and peas. Those are the ingredients that make up the bulk of the food. 

Here is the food I am currently feeding my dogs, but there is also lamb, salmon, duck an other flavors which I like to rotate:
Ingredients
•	Deboned Chicken, 
•	Chicken Meal, 
•	Potato Starch, 
•	Turkey Meal, 
•	Peas, 
•	Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid), 
•	Potatoes, 
•	Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene), 
•	Natural Chicken Flavor, 
•	Flaxseed (source of Omega 3 and 6 Fatty Acids), 
•	Alfalfa Meal, 
•	Whole Carrots, 
•	Whole Sweet Potatoes, 
•	Blueberries, 
•	Cranberries, 
•	Barley Grass, 
•	Dried Parsley, 
•	Dried Kelp, 
•	Taurine, 
•	Yucca Schidigera Extract, 
•	L-Carnitine, 
•	L-Lysine, 
•	Turmeric, 
•	Oil of Rosemary, 
•	Beta Carotene, 
•	Vitamin A Supplement, 
•	Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), 
•	Riboflavin (Vitamin B2), 
•	Niacin (Vitamin B3), 
•	d-Calcium Pantothenate (Vitamin B5), 
•	Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), 
•	Biotin (Vitamin B7), 
•	Folic Acid (Vitamin B9), 
•	Vitamin B12 Supplement, 
•	Calcium Ascorbate (source of Vitamin C), 
•	Vitamin D3 Supplement, 
•	Vitamin E Supplement, 
•	Iron Amino Acid Chelate, 
•	Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, 
•	Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, 
•	Copper Amino Acid Chelate, 
•	Choline Chloride, 
•	Sodium Selenite, 
•	Calcium Iodate, 
•	Salt, 
•	Caramel,
•	Potassium Chloride, 
•	Dried Yeast (source of Saccharomyces cerevisiae), 
•	Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, 
•	Dried Bacillus subtilis fermentation product, 
•	Dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product


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## Muma-parti-spoo (Jul 19, 2012)

This is another product; ingredients are as follows;


"Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics."

So this one is 'better' than the first one I posted right?

Really appreciate everyone's help thanks!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Yes, this second one is better!

Good for you doing the research; diet is so important. 

--Q


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## Muma-parti-spoo (Jul 19, 2012)

yummy! its a shame really that the good ones are so hard to find! that ones not even in a shop! online orders only :act-up:


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> Hello
> We don't even have our wee girl yet but Ive been researching the different brands of dry dog food available.
> We live in New Zealand an most of the great brands I've seen mentioned in this topic are not available in nz. (there are other brands made here in nz that probably aren't available overseas) anyway...
> In basic terms, how do I know what food is good? What % of crude protein is reccommended for a standard poodle? Is chicken meal better than beef meal?
> ...


You should look at the legal definitions of the ingredients in your country. In the USA, dog food ingredients have legal definitions - and they vary by country.

For example, I bought some cheap treats here that had "Australian meat meal" in it. I didn't realize my mistake until I broked the treats in pieces and found pieces of feathers in them. In the USA, feathers an waste cannot be in meat meals!


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## zyrcona (Jan 9, 2011)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> This is another product; ingredients are as follows;
> 
> 
> "Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics."
> ...


This one sounds lovely. I hope your new pup enjoys it!


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## cliffdweller (Jan 31, 2011)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> Hello
> We don't even have our wee girl yet but Ive been researching the different brands of dry dog food available.
> We live in New Zealand an most of the great brands I've seen mentioned in this topic are not available in nz. (there are other brands made here in nz that probably aren't available overseas) anyway...
> In basic terms, how do I know what food is good? What % of crude protein is reccommended for a standard poodle? Is chicken meal better than beef meal?
> ...


Though it is in conjunction with a raw diet, I have been giving Rain ZiwiPeak for her small AM meal. She likes it, and I think it's a good food; made in New Zealand.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

That last food you listed looks very good. Keep in mind that it is a good idea to change flavors every once in a while for variety.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> This is another product; ingredients are as follows;
> 
> 
> "Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics."
> ...


Definitely better than the first! And since your original question asked about how to tell what is a good _dry kibble_, that's what I'm going to post about. 

The Dog Food Project - How does your Dog Food Brand compare?

I found the above website very helpful in figuring out what to look for in a dog food, and what to avoid. I personally don't like to feed grain inclusive foods to my dogs, just because I think grains are unnecessary. However, there are a lot of really good grain-inclusive foods out there, many more so than grain free. If you go with grains, you want to make sure they are high quality grains. I would avoid corn, wheat, and I personally don't use much rice. Oatmeal, barley, quinoa, etc. are better, IMO. 

As far as protein sources, it all depends on the dog. Chicken and beef are two of the more common proteins that dogs tend to be sensitive to (aka, "food allergies") but if your dog isn't sensitive to them, then I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. I have two dogs with food sensitivities and in order to prevent them from reacting, I avoid feeding a single protein source for too long. I generally alternate protein sources with every bag of dog food I buy. This is known as a "rotation diet". In the research that I have done, my understanding is that dogs develop sensitivities to things they are exposed to for long periods of time. This is why a puppy fed low-quality food containing corn (another common "allergen") may not have any signs of allergies, but by the time that puppy reaches adulthood, he may be getting ear infections, skin infections, or have GI problems as a result of the corn in his diet. This is why I rotate foods, in theory to prevent this sort of thing from happening. There's some controversy over whether or not that's how it really works, but so far it's worked for us. 

Now, protein content is another controversy entirely. I'm of the school of thought that dogs are meant to eat meat, and lots of it. As a rule of thumb, the higher the meat content in a kibble, the higher the %protein. That would mean that more protein = better. However, if you think about the natural state of meat, which is comprised of 70-80% water, and you take the actual protein percentage of that meat, it is actually pretty low. Since meat in kibble is "dried out", that takes the percentage way up. That said, I believe that appropriate levels of protein are very dog specific, and not necessarily breed specific. I think you should strive to feed as high of a protein content as your dog can tolerate. Some dogs do extremely well on high-protein kibble such as Orijen. Others, not so much. My girl Nova has been on high 30s-low 40s percentage protein the whole time I've had her. She's also been incredibly gassy and has occasional stool quality issues. Since I've tried every protein source known to man with no improvement, I was wondering if it was the high protein causing the problems. I recently switched her to a 22% protein LID diet, and she's starting to improve some. So maybe it is the protein, maybe its some obscure ingredient. Hard to know for sure. Sookie eats a 38% protein grain free food right now, and she's doing great on that. 

Hope this helps answer some of your questions, and good luck!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Muma-parti-spoo said:


> This is another product; ingredients are as follows;
> 
> 
> "Chicken Meal, Whitefish Meal, Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Egg, Tomato Pomace, Apples, Blueberries, Carrots, Peas, Spinach, Garlic, Yucca, Taurine, Cottage Cheese, L-Lysine, DL-Methionine, Beta-Carotene, Vitamins, Minerals, Probiotics."
> ...



I like to avoid Chicken fat in the first several ingredients. Being the 4th ingredient is OK, but I'd rather it be at least ingredient 7. Just a nitpick.


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

CharismaticMillie said:


> I like to avoid Chicken fat in the first several ingredients. Being the 4th ingredient is OK, but I'd rather it be at least ingredient 7. Just a nitpick.


CM, do you mind sharing your reasoning behind that preference? I'm just curious


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