# AKC Suspends Dalin Toy Breeder for 10 Years



## sparkyjoe

Oh, that's so sad. I hope she gets help if she needs it and that her dogs are safe.


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## Mfmst

That is really sad to read. From what I can understand it involved one Poodle, so perhaps it was a moment of madness at a high stakes show and not systemic abuse in her breeding program. To be banned for 10 years, the cruelty must have been egregious.


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## dcail

Thanks, Chagall's for posting about Lynn of Dalin Kennel! Last year at PCA (Poodle Club of America) I sat next to a lady that is on the PCA Rescue committee. She was one of many that went to rescue toy poodles at Lynn's place in 2012. Here is a link to show pictures of the terrible conditions they lived in at her place! PCA Newsletter - Poodle Club of America
Fall 2012 newsletter page 30

She was also convicted for ANIMAL CRUELTY: DEPRIVATION on 12/09/2013 in Virginia
Richmond County Circuit - Criminal Division 
Case Number:CR12000184-00 

Need I say more!!


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## CharismaticMillie

This is the poodle papers blurb referred to above.


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## sparkyjoe

Oh my, that's horrific! Those poor little things!


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## Tiny Poodles

I am not going to reveal information that was told to me in confidence, but I will point out that there have been many times where innocent breeders have been targeted, and publicly called out as puppy millers, along with fake pictures that are not of their dogs.
It is not a good thing to reside in PETA's home town, nor in some respects is it a good thing to have beaten just about every person in your breed in the ring at one time or another.
Until the final chip has fallen (and trust me, there are many more that have not fallen yet), I remain extremely proud to be a parent of two incredible Dalin Poodles.


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## Carolinek

Wow- from top toy breeder in 2009 to this? Twenty three dogs listed in the website as"top producers"....obviously there were many more. Very sad. Guess 23 active breeders would be a red flag that this is a high volume breeder. Wonder if it's been bad all along or this is a recent development?

Good to see the AKC policing their own- and coming down heavy on this woman. Hopefully all the dogs will find their way into rescue and have a chance at a joyful life.


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## Carolinek

Tiny Poodles- I thought this was your dogs' breeder and I am sorry. I hope for everyone's sake she was railroaded, but the evidence doesn't look good. It's too bad- beautiful dogs.

I looked up the case number, the conviction was very real.


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## cmarrie

Tiny Poodles said:


> I remain extremely proud to be a parent of two incredible Dalin Poodles.


As well you should be, Tiny Poodles. No matter what did or didn't happen every puppy deserves a safe and loving home. 

How many people out there have amazing pets that came to their family from accidental pregnancy, backyard breeders, puppy mills or the pound? I think, most of the time, where a puppy ends up, and how it's treated there is more influential than perfectly bred genetics.


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## Poodlebeguiled

No, there's rock solid evidence. It is true. And it is horrific. I don't understand this puppy mill mentality, especially with someone who was an AKC, well thought of breeder at one time. But there is no possible excuse for keeping dogs in this way. So very many dogs, impossible to care for them properly. Something is wrong or missing in any human being who would be so greedy (or whatever the reason) that they would allow this torment, misery, abuse, cruelty to exist. Something _so_ very wrong. 

This is not the first time. I believe I read of another two times she was suspended and charged with cruelty. First time...mistake? Things got away from her? Second time? Third time? It's unconscionable, unfathomable. 

I have no doubt Tiny, that your little dog has good blood lines and that she is fine. But to continue to defend in any way or enable, recommend her after the facts are on the table is perpetuating this kind of behavior, not only in her, but in anyone who runs a kennel with these kinds of conditions. It's a puppy mill...one of the worst I've seen. People need to be made aware. No one but no one should ever purchase any animal from her again. She needs to be stopped. This is horrifically tragic. 

And yes, she does need help. But right now I feel so saddened by the horror these dogs lived through...more sorry for them because they're completely helpless and innocent. This breeder is a human being with a bigger brain and so is her family and friends who should have reported her long ago.


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## CharismaticMillie

"Show mill" are the words that come to mind.


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## MollyMuiMa

I'm just glad they were all seized............perhaps now they will have the life they deserve as loved pets instead of 'ribbon producing champions'. Unfortunately, unless this person is closely monitored she will go on producing puppies because she is mentally impaired and probably believes she did nothing wrong and truly loves her dogs.................We have all seen this happen over and over again....they move to another location,change the name of their operation, put it in someone else name, and do the same thing all over again! Kinda like a hoarder .............just sadder because it involves living creatures .


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## Carolinek

Just tragic. How superficial, uncaring can you be to put so much care and attention into breeding dogs for their beauty, but then treat them so inhumanely? Guess it's easy to do when they are just a product. Same mentality as the gangbanger who ties his muscular pit bull on a three foot chain for it's life. All show and no regard for the welfare of the animal. It's just so incredibly sad.


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## Mfmst

Ugh! That's horrific. So three cheers for the AKC. Please do clear out all the bad breeders.


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## alwayson

Yes yes, its all true it's in the reports , and on line and on The Dog Press the conduction of these poor dogs was disgusting, to lesson to the people that where there talk about it how the dogs look and smelled and look like. Some of he owner that let Lynn use their dogs and thought they were being taken care of , didn't even look like a breed of any kind. The owner where found threw their chips . Lynn wouldn't tell them a thing,she stayed in her house like she didn't do a thing wrong . When the some of the owners came to get their Ch . Pet then didn't even recognized there own dogs any more. There was no way in hell that she couldn't , see or smell how bad these poor dogs were suffering . She has fought this or 2 years , and the kicker is this is not her first offence . I think she has been in court 3 times for the same thing . I posted all thing on FB the articles and pictures also , Groups that she was on their sits ,The block her and her friend Lori " tinnypoodles something about 6 months ago I ask this Lori about Lynns suspension and she told me 'O that was all a big mistake " and she is still in good standing with AKC This Tinnypoodles somethings is the one that does the pushing of selling Lynn's puppy' She Would say would post pictures of the puppys for Lynn and then say Oh go to Dalin site and see all the puppys she has is a wonderful person and breeder , Lynn is moving she stated on FB that her husband was being offered a new position that is a big lie also Lynns husband has bee sick for some time and hasn't work in some time.. The women is going to keep selling her puppy mill puppys and this Lorie
and others are going to help , I am sure they are getting paid for every puppy they sell. I am wondering if Dalin and Lorie pays axes on her puppy's
she is selling ???? Maybe the tip line at the IRS would like to here about that .


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## Dolly's Mom

Sorry did anyone read the picture posted where it said she had 90 DOGS ON HER PROPERTY?!?!? I think I'm going to be sick. There's a similar situation going on in Ontario with a breeder whose facility I went to see. The dogs were all kennelled and she easily had 20 dogs plus 30 puppies between 2 weeks and 6 weeks. That's ridiculous to me but you meet people who've bought puppies from her and they rave about her. I mention that it's a glorified puppy mill and they all say oh well....


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## Poodlebeguiled

alwayson said:


> Yes yes, its all true it's in the reports , and on line and on The Dog Press the conduction of these poor dogs was disgusting, to lesson to the people that where there talk about it how the dogs look and smelled and look like. Some of he owner that let Lynn use their dogs and thought they were being taken care of , didn't even look like a breed of any kind. The owner where found threw their chips . Lynn wouldn't tell them a thing,she stayed in her house like she didn't do a thing wrong . When the some of the owners came to get their Ch . Pet then didn't even recognized there own dogs any more. There was no way in hell that she couldn't , see or smell how bad these poor dogs were suffering . She has fought this or 2 years , and the kicker is this is not her first offence . I think she has been in court 3 times for the same thing . I posted all thing on FB the articles and pictures also , Groups that she was on their sits ,The block her and her friend Lori " tinnypoodles something about 6 months ago I ask this Lori about Lynns suspension and she told me 'O that was all a big mistake " and she is still in good standing with AKC This Tinnypoodles somethings is the one that does the pushing of selling Lynn's puppy' She Would say would post pictures of the puppys for Lynn and then say Oh go to Dalin site and see all the puppys she has is a wonderful person and breeder , Lynn is moving she stated on FB that her husband was being offered a new position that is a big lie also Lynns husband has bee sick for some time and hasn't work in some time.. The women is going to keep selling her puppy mill puppys and this Lorie
> and others are going to help , I am sure they are getting paid for every puppy they sell. I am wondering if Dalin and Lorie pays axes on her puppy's
> she is selling ???? Maybe the tip line at the IRS would like to here about that .


How enlightening this post is. But it makes my heart sick. My gut told me it was over the top how much pro-Dalin propaganda there was going on here. I had some kind of inkling of a suspicion about this breeder before knowing any of this...but brushed it aside. Now I get it as to why I had that intuition. All I can say is "why?" :sad:


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## poodlecrazy#1

Wow! I am just speechless right now!! ???????


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## Tiny Poodles

Sigh, I guess that the concept of trying to be helpful, and sharing a good thing is a foreign concept to you people. 
Do you think that I work for Petplan too? I talk about them even more than my favorite breeder, so you must think that 
I do.







This is Dalin Timi, and she is covered by Petplan, and I couldn't be happier with either!


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## patk

tp, you know i questioned you from day one about dalin. but that is a different story from people accusing you without any proof. that is really reprehensible. i believe it's called libel and is actionable in law.


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## alwayson

Tiny Poodles said:


> Sigh, I guess that the concept of trying to be helpful, and sharing a good thing is a foreign concept to you people.
> Do you think that I work for Petplan too? I talk about them even more than my favorite breeder, so you must think that
> I do.
> View attachment 204442
> 
> This is Dalin Timi, and she is covered by Petplan, and I couldn't be happier with either!


 I love how your try to twist things that make this treatment of a poodle ok with you . The questions is not that you love your dog you got from Dalin , the problem is how you have acted in helping her sell these dogs and you try to hide what she did and what part you have played in the BIG LIE. You have be booted off FB and you just  open new sites up to help this disgusting women you call a wonderful breeder to doing it . Petplan doesn't have thing to do with the LIES that your helping with . Money is the name of the game for you and Dalin , I am quite sure you are Lynn and the other disgusting people that are doing what your doing have paid your taxes on these poor animals that you and Lynn are living off . Every thing is on the internet and in print and your still saying what a wonderful person is , How dare you when every one can see the pictures . I talked to the rescue people that saved these poor dogs from her and you . It was one of the most disgusting things I have every heard and to see how Lynn acted when it all was going on and then to show up at PCA and act like she didn't do a thing , BULL SH*& Your just bad as she is . So don't try to play up that your so pure . How on earth could she go in to that stinking kennel when she thought about feeding and watering them and not feel anything for those dog. The feces was so thing the dogs feet hadn't touch the bottom of a carte in years . The dogs them self's was covered in feces from the wire crates being stack on top of each other . The Vier Kennels had Feces coming out 
of the sides some of the dogs couldn't even stand up straight with the feces was so thick. NO water that was clean and the poor dogs couldn't get out from this . And your taking about petplan . What the heck you must be some crazy women, No I take that back your not your just greedy like Lynn and your just trying to justified what she did and your no better


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## poodlecrazy#1

alwayson said:


> I love how your try to twist things that make this treatment of a poodle ok with you . The questions is not that you love your dog you got from Dalin , the problem is how you have acted in helping her sell these dogs and you try to hide what she did and what part you have played in the BIG LIE. You have be booted off FB and you just open new sites up to help this disgusting women you call a wonderful breeder to doing it . Petplan doesn't have thing to do with the LIES that your helping with . Money is the name of the game for you and Dalin , I am quite sure you are Lynn and the other disgusting people that are doing what your doing have paid your taxes on these poor animals that you and Lynn are living off . Every thing is on the internet and in print and your still saying what a wonderful person is , How dare you when every one can see the pictures . I talked to the rescue people that saved these poor dogs from her and you . It was one of the most disgusting things I have every heard and to see how Lynn acted when it all was going on and then to show up at PCA and act like she didn't do a thing , BULL SH*& Your just bad as she is . So don't try to play up that your so pure . How on earth could she go in to that stinking kennel when she thought about feeding and watering them and not feel anything for those dog. The feces was so thing the dogs feet hadn't touch the bottom of a carte in years . The dogs them self's was covered in feces from the wire crates being stack on top of each other . The Vier Kennels had Feces coming out
> 
> of the sides some of the dogs couldn't even stand up straight with the feces was so thick. NO water that was clean and the poor dogs couldn't get out from this . And your taking about petplan . What the heck you must be some crazy women, No I take that back your not your just greedy like Lynn and your just trying to justified what she did and your no better



Ok, hold up now, I'm befuddled ?, where did all this anger towards TP come from??! So what if she has Dalin poodles. She loves her poodles to death and wouldn't ever treat them badly.


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## janet6567

I cannot believe anyone would defend this horrible, horrible woman. There are special places in hell for people like this. I hope hers is equally as bad as the conditions she kept those poor animals in. Shame on you for defending her, TP and for helping her perpetuate this cruelty.


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## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> I love how your try to twist things that make this treatment of a poodle ok with you . The questions is not that you love your dog you got from Dalin , the problem is how you have acted in helping her sell these dogs and you try to hide what she did and what part you have played in the BIG LIE. You have be booted off FB and you just open new sites up to help this disgusting women you call a wonderful breeder to doing it . Petplan doesn't have thing to do with the LIES that your helping with . Money is the name of the game for you and Dalin , I am quite sure you are Lynn and the other disgusting people that are doing what your doing have paid your taxes on these poor animals that you and Lynn are living off . Every thing is on the internet and in print and your still saying what a wonderful person is , How dare you when every one can see the pictures . I talked to the rescue people that saved these poor dogs from her and you . It was one of the most disgusting things I have every heard and to see how Lynn acted when it all was going on and then to show up at PCA and act like she didn't do a thing , BULL SH*& Your just bad as she is . So don't try to play up that your so pure . How on earth could she go in to that stinking kennel when she thought about feeding and watering them  and not feel anything for those dog. The feces was so thing the dogs feet hadn't touch the bottom of a carte in years . The dogs them self's was covered in feces from the wire crates being stack on top of each other . The Vier Kennels had Feces coming out
> 
> of the sides some of the dogs couldn't even stand up straight with the feces was so thick. NO water that was clean and the poor dogs couldn't get out from this . And your taking about petplan . What the heck you must be some crazy women, No I take that back your not your just greedy like Lynn and your just trying to justified what she did and your no better



D if you had any proof of your allegations, I would be the saddest person on the planet. I have no idea, because I have never even been in the State of Virginia. But what I am pretty certain of is that Animal Control has inspected Lynn's kennels many times, and if they feel that she cares for the legal limit of dogs well enough that they remain with her to this day, then the claims that you are making about her are indeed libelous. 
PatK, I think that you may wrong about me though - in order for false claims to be libelous, they would have to cause some damage. In Lynn's case, they are preventing her from her livelihood, selling dogs, and what she wants to do with this is between her and her attorney. But in my case, she isn't preventing me from anything, because I don't sell dogs. She could say that I misrepresented Petplan too, but since I don't work for them either, where is the harm?


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## PoodlePaws

I find it strange that alwayson only has 4 total posts EVER on this forum. And she uses two of those posts to slam tiny poodles. I'm wondering if she is here to slander Dalin. Hmmmm. I do love a good conspiracy theory

On a happier note. I have a secret. I rescued an 8 month old show shih Tzu last month. Her name is Gemma.
???


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## PoodlePaws

Also I can set you straight about libel and slander. 

Slander is spoken words

Libel is written words


Carry on


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## PoodlePaws

Crap. I meant to say libel Dalin. 

Also. I did not mean to type "show" in front of shih Tzu


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## alwayson

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Ok, hold up now, I'm befuddled &#55357;&#56870;, where did all this anger towards TP come from??! So what if she has Dalin poodles. She loves her poodles to death and wouldn't ever treat them badly.


 You bet I am mad ! this TP women called LW is still helping Lynn of 
Dalin so called kennel sell her puppy, and ,Telling people how wonderful Lynn and lying to people about them being AKC registered puppies. she was on one site on FB call All AKC Poodle Puppy's . Lynn hasn't be able to register any of her doge since this has been going on and now for 10 year TP has set up the sites for this so called breeder and posted pictures for her telling the administers of the site that Lynn doesn't have internet service which is a lie , ( maybe now she doesn't ) but not back them TP has told people Lynn is moving because her husband was offered a job In that part of the state , That is LIE.Lynne'ss husband hasn't work in year . He is on disability . Lie after Lie she is telling people . TP had been block on about 5 sites in FB selling Lynns dogs for her. So she has just open up new sites with a name change her and there , You think she is doing all this stuff for FREE of course not ! she is getting paid forever puppy Lynn can Sell and he is not the only one doing this of Lynn and they are being weeded out and will be thrown off FB too. Lynn is trying to buy dogs for Europe then she will register then under TP name and other that work for Lynn . I got news for her they are know all about what Lynn did the same articles have been seen over there now . And AKC knows that other people are trying to register the dogs but hey are Lynns dogs . I have heard that if she (Dalin) is caught selling any puppies she will be arrested :argh:


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## alwayson

PoodlePaws said:


> I find it strange that alwayson only has 4 total posts EVER on this forum. And she uses two of those posts to slam tiny poodles. I'm wondering if she is here to slander Dalin. Hmmmm. I do love a good conspiracy theory
> 
> On a happier note. I have a secret. I rescued an 8 month old show shih Tzu last month. Her name is Gemma.
> &#55357;&#56883;&#55357;&#56860;&#55357;&#56876;


 I am glad you have rescued a puppy, good luck . No I am not here to say anything that is not the truth I may have been thinking out loud a bout the taxes but that Is not a crime. I was just asking a questing . Now if you have been following this you would know that every thing I said is in Print on the internet and in print I can give you all the articles again that have ben posted by others if you have missed something . 
:argh:


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## Streetcar

*Imho*



poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Ok, hold up now, I'm befuddled ?, where did all this anger towards TP come from??! So what if she has Dalin poodles. She loves her poodles to death and wouldn't ever treat them badly.


TinyPoodles has trusted her breeder, who has clearly always treated her client well. Poodle Forum has seen photos the breeder sent TP, and they always looked like everything and everyone was clean and well-groomed. Sure, people can hide things, but PF or its members can't make TP a responsible party.

I know how much one can come to trust a great breeder and be proud to share information. TinyPoodles seems like a naturally enthusiastic person to me. If so many knew her breeder was awful, why not have spoken up during Timi's development? Why not have warned TinyPoodles off at that point? She is not the only PF member who has spoken proudly and publicly of her breeder.

Those who have posted clearly literate posts and who have cited sources have indeed given important information to consider. Those who post personal accusals without providing sources or proof are not helping the breed, their cause(s) if they have any, or breed rescue, imho.

Tearing the fancy apart from inside only feeds into the insidious goals of radical activists. We can talk about this, feel horrible for Poodles and any breed so horridly mistreated. We can be specific about facts. We can and should decry the treatment, help rescues if in our means, and discuss what reasonable steps can be taken to help prevent such atrocities (though legislation will *never* prevent such instances). But to make near unreadable and personal accusations without facts? That doesn't fly with me.


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## PoodlePaws

Alwayson - I am interested to know how and/or why you have been following Dalin and TP on Facebook and online? This just seems odd to me that you know so much.


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## Viking Queen

I am new on this forum, but have lurked here a good while. This thread is so very disturbing. Not quite sure what to think about people who could possibly support someone who has a very long history of running what is essentially a puppy mill.

After reading this thread I did a little internet search and came upon an article previously published regarding abusive kennel situations regarding this "breeder". In the article it states that she had about 160 dogs which were in her kennel. If that's not a puppy mill, on sheer numbers alone, I don't know what is. Then read on and note the condition of some dogs she surrendered. This article was from 2008, so clearly this has been going on for a long time.

Here is the link to the article. After reading it and taking into consideration the current situation regarding this breeder, you are free to draw your own conclusions, as I have done.

Fredericksburg.com - Bite brings kennel under scrutiny SOUTHWEST VA. INVESTIGATION PROMPTS NEW STATE LAW

It is truely horrific.

Viking Queen


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## Tiny Poodles

PoodlePaws said:


> Also I can set you straight about libel and slander.
> 
> Slander is spoken words
> 
> Libel is written words
> 
> 
> Carry on



Am I correct in that I have no case in that it is only libel if there are damages, and since she can't damage my non-existent career as a dog seller, there can be no libel?
Lynn on the other hand, if the written allegations are false, (and being that VA Animal Control approves of her ability to care for dogs up to the legal limit, I think that there is a strong probability of that), would have a very good libel suit against her, wouldn't she?


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## poodlecrazy#1

Yes I am curious too. Do you have any proof other than similar names to link these people together? In my opinion Tinypoodles is a very respected person on this forum and has been way more active and supportive of other members.


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## MiniPoo

You know, I don't know what is true or not about Dalin kennels. But I have seen a lot of posts from Tinypoodles and developed a sense that she is a caring poodle owner (albeit a little obsessed about having the perfect tiny poodle) but in no way do I think she was covering up or promoting a breeder who ran a puppy mill. If Dalin treated her dogs badly, I do not think TP knew. This is my gut feeling and in the absence of any proof to the contrary I will continue to feel that way.

Alwayson, on the other hand, who rarely posts in the forum is attacking TP in such an ugly way, I really wish you would go back to your inactive status. Dalin is being investigated and we will see what happens. Please stop attacking TP. Go away and tell someone else who wants to hear your rants. I can't make you go away. I just wish you would.


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## Tiny Poodles

Viking Queen said:


> I am new on this forum, but have lurked here a good while. This thread is so very disturbing. Not quite sure what to think about people who could possibly support someone who has a very long history of running what is essentially a puppy mill.
> 
> 
> 
> After reading this thread I did a little internet search and came upon an article previously published regarding abusive kennel situations regarding this "breeder". In the article it states that she had about 160 dogs which were in her kennel. If that's not a puppy mill, on sheer numbers alone, I don't know what is. Then read on and note the condition of some dogs she surrendered. This article was from 2008, so clearly this has been going on for a long time.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the link to the article. After reading it and taking into consideration the current situation regarding this breeder, you are free to draw your own conclusions, as I have done.
> 
> 
> 
> Fredericksburg.com - Bite brings kennel under scrutiny SOUTHWEST VA. INVESTIGATION PROMPTS NEW STATE LAW
> 
> 
> 
> It is truely horrific.
> 
> 
> 
> Viking Queen



This is what I got from that article - 
"Lindberg said the Hanover prosecutor found the most serious allegation that could be verified was failure to buy a license."

If reading comprehension makes folks think that I am a bad person, so be it..


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## alwayson

Streetcar said:


> TinyPoodles has trusted her breeder, who has clearly always treated her client well. Poodle Forum has seen photos the breeder sent TP, and they always looked like everything and everyone was clean and well-groomed. Sure, people can hide things, but PF or its members can't make TP a responsible party.
> 
> I know how much one can come to trust a great breeder and be proud to share information. TinyPoodles seems like a naturally enthusiastic person to me. If so many knew her breeder was awful, why not have spoken up during Timi's development? Why not have warned TinyPoodles off at that point? She is not the only PF member who has spoken proudly and publicly of her breeder.
> 
> Those who have posted clearly literate posts and who have cited sources have indeed given important information to consider. Those who post personal accusals without providing sources or proof are not helping the breed, their cause(s) if they have any, or breed rescue, imho.
> 
> Tearing the fancy apart from inside only feeds into the insidious goals of radical activists. We can talk about this, feel horrible for Poodles and any breed so horridly mistreated. We can be specific about facts. We can and should decry the treatment, help rescues if in our means, and discuss what reasonable steps can be taken to help prevent such atrocities (though legislation will *never* prevent such instances). But to make near unreadable and personal accusations without facts? That doesn't fly with me.


 Oh Please , the thread have been posted on here before I posted , its all over the internet , Its seems like to me that you condone both these women or friends with them . Can you read ? go back when the thread was stared AKC Suspends Dalin Toy Breeder for 10 Years , its in the Dog Press on the AKC site . On FB . I never posted on here before I wasn't concerned what was going on, This is important and more people need to speak up and not CONDONE this kind of treatment of these dogs or any animal . You can think that TP is the poor victim here but she is not , I have every tread that she posted in FB to sell these Dalin puppy's letting people think that they were AKC register ,she even posted tons of pictures of Lynns dong on the site Called All AKC Registered Poodles , and not one was register with any club . I ask her personal on FB about Lynn not being in good standing with AKC , and I have this on paper , saying O' that was a big mistake and lynn is in good standing with AKC. So if you want to go toe to toe with me over this disgusting abuse , I can , FB and block 5 sites from TP for selling Lynns dogs , :argh:


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## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> You know, I don't know what is true or not about Dalin kennels. But I have seen a lot of posts from Tinypoodles and developed a sense that she is a caring poodle owner (albeit a little obsessed about having the perfect tiny poodle) but in no way do I think she was covering up or promoting a breeder who ran a puppy mill. If Dalin treated her dogs badly, I do not think TP knew. This is my gut feeling and in the absence of any proof to the contrary I will continue to feel that way.
> 
> 
> 
> Alwayson, on the other hand, who rarely posts in the forum is attacking TP in such an ugly way, I really wish you would go back to your inactive status. Dalin is being investigated and we will see what happens. Please stop attacking TP. Go away and tell someone else who wants to hear your rants. I can't make you go away. I just wish you would.



Thank you, it is heartwarming to know that someone sees who I really am


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## Tiny Poodles

Oops, this thread is moving so fast that I responded to myself.


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## PoodlePaws

Again alwayson. I am asking how you came about TP on FB and her selling of these dogs. Did she tell you she was TP from the poodle forum?? Have you ever thought maybe TP had no idea the kind of conditions the dogs were in as she has NEVER visited the kennel before?


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## PoodlePaws

Also. I find it strange that a puppymill would LET people go to the breeding site. That is insane to me. Y would they have prospective buyers wanting to look at horrible conditions. Something doesn't seem like its adding up here.


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## Tiny Poodles

Streetcar said:


> TinyPoodles has trusted her breeder, who has clearly always treated her client well. Poodle Forum has seen photos the breeder sent TP, and they always looked like everything and everyone was clean and well-groomed. Sure, people can hide things, but PF or its members can't make TP a responsible party.
> 
> 
> 
> I know how much one can come to trust a great breeder and be proud to share information. TinyPoodles seems like a naturally enthusiastic person to me. If so many knew her breeder was awful, why not have spoken up during Timi's development? Why not have warned TinyPoodles off at that point? She is not the only PF member who has spoken proudly and publicly of her breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> Those who have posted clearly literate posts and who have cited sources have indeed given important information to consider. Those who post personal accusals without providing sources or proof are not helping the breed, their cause(s) if they have any, or breed rescue, imho.
> 
> 
> 
> Tearing the fancy apart from inside only feeds into the insidious goals of radical activists. We can talk about this, feel horrible for Poodles and any breed so horridly mistreated. We can be specific about facts. We can and should decry the treatment, help rescues if in our means, and discuss what reasonable steps can be taken to help prevent such atrocities (though legislation will *never* prevent such instances). But to make near unreadable and personal accusations without facts? That doesn't fly with me.



Thank you for your understanding, and thank you for your brilliant and articulate assessment of the situation!


----------



## PoodlePaws

I think I've watched enough CSI and LAW AND ORDER that I could investigate this. Lol. Oh jeezus! It's just amazing you -alwayson- pop on here out of nowhere and start throwing accusations about TP. And frankly makes me sad that more people aren't sticking up for TP in this situation when she has never even met the breeder nor visited that kennel.


----------



## Viking Queen

Tiny Poodles said:


> Thank you, it is heartwarming to know that someone sees who I really am


I don't believe that you are a bad, uncaring person,and from what I have seen in your previous posts on the forum you seem to be a loving and caring Poodle Mom. I cheered you on, privately, all through your "Timi adoption" process. And Am happy that she has turned out so well. She is clearly well loved and cared for in your home.

That said, I still believe from what I have read that this woman should no longer be breeding and selling dogs. 160 of them at one time in her kennel in 2008 is astonishing and the recent animal cruelty case is evidence of ongoing problems with her kennel situation. 

Just so very sad for the animals. I have no patience nor sympathy for people who abuse animals.

Viking Queen


----------



## alwayson

Tiny Poodles said:


> Thank you, it is heartwarming to know that someone sees who I really am



I will go away when you stop selling Lynn's puppy's , I do know what kind of a person you are , that is the sad part . You can play like the victim here all you want But the administers on FB say other wise , When they told you to stop selling Lynns dogs you gave them lip and when they seen the truth on the net they had good cause and you have lied to them they block you as did other sites maybe you would care to explain that. If this is not the truth why did all of the groups block you and Lynn?. If you think or Lynn think you have a case against me or any one that is reading what is posted on a public form then try , Why do you think that none of this has came out before this , Because we all were waiting for the court case outcome . And for it to go public. I have stack of things that you posted online and what you was telling people . I could have posted your real name because you used that name on a public forum FB but I didn't. Everything you and Lynn put out their becomes a public matter for all to see . You have a wonderful evening


----------



## Tiny Poodles

PoodlePaws said:


> Also. I find it strange that a puppymill would LET people go to the breeding site. That is insane to me. Y would they have prospective buyers wanting to look at horrible conditions. Something doesn't seem like its adding up here.



I have never been there myself (though I was welcomed to do so), but I have personally known two people who have,as well as dozens of "cyber friends" who have been there, and never had a bad thing to say, and told me that they were as thrilled with their Dalin puppies as I have been with my three.
Moreover, I don't think that there is any doubt that Animal Control has been a frequent visitor to the location, and if they deem that she provides suitable care to the legal limit of dogs, how can the allegations that are being made (including the nameless photos put out by PCA be true)?
If those photos and these allegations are proven to be true, then I would join you in taking action against VA Animal Control for permitting that to go on!! I would be heartbroken that that the woman that I believe to be a kind and caring person who has made incredible contributions to the breed would do such a thing, but I would be furious at Animal Control for permitting it to continue, and would do anything in my power to come down on them for it.


----------



## PoodlePaws

Well obviously if all the dogs were seized, TP can't be "selling" puppies, now can she? 

I'm still amused alwayson how involved in this criminal case you are. You still even answered my questions on WHY you are so involved. Why are you so involved?


----------



## Streetcar

PoodlePaws said:


> I find it strange that alwayson only has 4 total posts EVER on this forum. And she uses two of those posts to slam tiny poodles. I'm wondering if she is here to slander Dalin. Hmmmm. I do love a good conspiracy theory
> 
> On a happier note. I have a secret. I rescued an 8 month old show shih Tzu last month. Her name is Gemma.
> ???


PoodlePaws, congratulations on your rescue and your new Shih Tzu .

Another breeder was also the subject of a strong statement out of those four. However, this may be someone wonderfully plugged into breed activities and information. If so, it still behooves her to assist with independent info. I'm not on Facebook and hearing if someone is kicked off or not-no idea what that means, though did see something here about a cherished PF member getting the boot for no good reason recently, so it doesn't seem to be a reflection of a person's worth in any way, either personally or professionally.


----------



## alwayson

patk said:


> tp, you know i questioned you from day one about dalin. but that is a different story from people accusing you without any proof. that is really reprehensible. i believe it's called libel and is actionable in law.


 Good God can you read , PROOF ! did you go and to the treads and see the pictures ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO. Do you not think that the rescue people will not testify against her Dalin TP is just part of the problem , I will not be surprised if this forum takes TP off or blocks her for her part in this. Just like FB did once they find the truth out


----------



## twyla

http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/80130-thanks-having-me-here.html

last post is by Always on

This would probably be why, P.S. I truly hate flame wars


----------



## poodlecrazy#1

alwayson said:


> I will go away when you stop selling Lynn's puppy's , I do know what kind of a person you are , that is the sad part . You can play like the victim here all you want But the administers on FB say other wise , When they told you to stop selling Lynns dogs you gave them lip and when they seen the truth on the net they had good cause and you have lied to them they block you as did other sites maybe you would care to explain that. If this is not the truth why did all of the groups block you and Lynn?. If you think or Lynn think you have a case against me or any one that is reading what is posted on a public form then try , Why do you think that none of this has came out before this , Because we all were waiting for the court case outcome . And for it to go public. I have stack of things that you posted online and what you was telling people . I could have posted your real name because you used that name on a public forum FB but I didn't. Everything you and Lynn put out their becomes a public matter for all to see . You have a wonderful evening



In my opinion you are getting quite close to, if not there already to cyber bullying. You have no proof linking these "tinypoodles" people together and are making assumptions. I would appreciate if you would stop being a bully ?.


----------



## PoodlePaws

Alwayson - I think you have that backwards. TP isn't causing the problem here. Why would she get banned? The only one getting upset is you. You are a breeder no? And in the same area as Dalin? Those pics on that post could be from anywhere. Usually when people use pics like that there has to be an ID number on them. I don't see Any ID number. TP has been nothing but cordial on this thread.


----------



## PoodlePaws

Is this a Wild Kitten situation all over again? Yep. I said it. Is this really Wild Kitten? You both speak the same exact way!


----------



## alwayson

Streetcar said:


> TinyPoodles has trusted her breeder, who has clearly always treated her client well. Poodle Forum has seen photos the breeder sent TP, and they always looked like everything and everyone was clean and well-groomed. Sure, people can hide things, but PF or its members can't make TP a responsible party.
> 
> I know how much one can come to trust a great breeder and be proud to share information. TinyPoodles seems like a naturally enthusiastic person to me. If so many knew her breeder was awful, why not have spoken up during Timi's development? Why not have warned TinyPoodles off at that point? She is not the only PF member who has spoken proudly and publicly of her breeder.
> 
> Those who have posted clearly literate posts and who have cited sources have indeed given important information to consider. Those who post personal accusals without providing sources or proof are not helping the breed, their cause(s) if they have any, or breed rescue, imho.
> 
> Tearing the fancy apart from inside only feeds into the insidious goals of radical activists. We can talk about this, feel horrible for Poodles and any breed so horridly mistreated. We can be specific about facts. We can and should decry the treatment, help rescues if in our means, and discuss what reasonable steps can be taken to help prevent such atrocities (though legislation will *never* prevent such instances). But to make near unreadable and personal accusations without facts? That doesn't fly with me.


that it was well after 2012 that you went there . and of course it was clean the state said clean it up , the thread has been provided and you being a friend of Dalin is just Bogus . is it that you can't read or find the thread , or just plan ignorant you pick which one . I know which one I would say , give me the part about the atrocities not happing again , and the accusations , your a real piece of work .


----------



## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> You bet I am mad ! this TP women called LW is still helping Lynn of
> 
> Dalin so called kennel sell her puppy, and ,Telling people how wonderful Lynn and lying to people about them being AKC registered puppies. she was on one site on FB call All AKC Poodle Puppy's . Lynn hasn't be able to register any of her doge since this has been going on and now for 10 year TP has set up the sites for this so called breeder and posted pictures for her telling the administers of the site that Lynn doesn't have internet service which is a lie , ( maybe now she doesn't ) but not back them TP has told people Lynn is moving because her husband was offered a job In that part of the state , That is LIE.Lynne'ss husband hasn't work in year . He is on disability . Lie after Lie she is telling people . TP had been block on about 5 sites in FB selling Lynns dogs for her. So she has just open up new sites with a name change her and there , You think she is doing all this stuff for FREE of course not ! she is getting paid forever puppy Lynn can Sell and he is not the only one doing this of Lynn and they are being weeded out and will be thrown off FB too. Lynn is trying to buy dogs for Europe then she will register then under TP name and other that work for Lynn . I got news for her they are know all about what Lynn did the same articles have been seen over there now . And AKC knows that other people are trying to register the dogs but hey are Lynns dogs . I have heard that if she (Dalin) is caught selling any puppies she will be arrested :argh:



OMG, all I can say is that I urge you to seek psychiatric help.


----------



## PoodlePaws

twyla said:


> http://www.poodleforum.com/2-member-introductions/80130-thanks-having-me-here.html
> 
> last post is by Always on
> 
> This would probably be why, P.S. I truly hate flame wars



That link is from 2007? Am I missing something?


----------



## Streetcar

alwayson, to be clear: I do not condone mistreatment of Poodles or any dog, but neither do I see anything but some high level exuberance over a breeder here on PF. I do not have any reverence for Facebook and what gets posted there bears little if any weight for me.


----------



## twyla

PoodlePaws said:


> That link is from 2007? Am I missing something?


 well it should be from Jan. 2014. If you check Always on stats and check therir posts
Alwayson has only posted to this thread an intro and that thread

A TROLL!!!!!!!!


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## poodlecrazy#1

alwayson said:


> that it was well after 2012 that you went there . and of course it was clean the state said clean it up , the thread has been provided and you being a friend of Dalin is just Bogus . is it that you can't read or find the thread , or just plan ignorant you pick which one . I know which one I would say , give me the part about the atrocities not happing again , and the accusations , your a real piece of work .



OMG! Really! you are not even making sense anymore!


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## elem8886

Alwayson - I don't know what Dalin did or did not do as it is still under investigation. I can't even read your last reply - it makes no sense at all. You have also not provided any evidence of how our Tinypoodles is involved in any way but owning a Dalin dog.

I do "know" TP here on the forum and I believe that she is a responsible and loving dog owner. I don't think for a second that she would condone and promote any kind of abuse against any animal.

You haven't given actual evidence of wrongdoing by TP. If anyone is currently breaking forum rules I think it would be you - you have broken rules 1,4,7, and probably 5. You have been disrespectful, insulting/belittling/harassing, hateful, and threatening. Please stop being a bully and if you have a point to make please keep it civil and factual.


----------



## N2Mischief

Alwayson, you may want to take a gander at the forum rules before you say much more. 

I think this thread started as a discussion about Dalin and has turned into an attempted lynching of TP. 

I too had questions about Dalin and discussed it in private with TP. I don't see any maliciousness in TP's defense of her breeder. I think she truly feels the accusations are false. Yes, she has recommended her breeder to numerous people. I don't think it was to profit in any way. I think she honestly believes in her breeder and the dogs produced.

I don't believe TP has or has had anything to do with her breeders actions.

I find it hard NOT to believe the abuse/neglect is true. But on this forum I have found MOST of us can disagree...sometimes heatedly....without personally attacking one another. 

These accusations and allegations personally make me sick. My heart hurts for those dogs. 

But please, let's act like adults and discuss this intelligently instead of name calling and bullying like children.


----------



## Dolly's Mom

Firstly I'd like to point out that TP is recognized by most of us on PF as a respectful, helpful individual with lovely dogs. Very few of us wouldn't recommend the breeders of our dogs we love. I personally am a repeat customer and sing the praises of my breeder. I would not take internet gossip to be the sole deciding factor as to whether I'd agree. I would speak to my breeder and get the full story and in confidence I wouldn't share it.

Alwayson I'd advise you to be cautious of your internet footprint as a "show" toy poodle breeder as it literally took me 10sec to end up on your website and all I can say is people in glass houses and all.
If you'd like to provide tangible proof to us here you may get an actual audience but as you been incoherent and rude I feel safe to say I am just watching this with sad confusion at this point.


----------



## patk

alwayson said:


> Good God can you read , PROOF ! did you go and to the treads and see the pictures ?? NOOOOOOOOOOOO. Do you not think that the rescue people will not testify against her Dalin TP is just part of the problem , I will not be surprised if this forum takes TP off or blocks her for her part in this. Just like FB did once they find the truth out


i don't want this to devolve into anything personal, but pf is just as likely to question your participation as anyone else's. you really haven't established any credentials here apart from launching personal attacks. facebook is blocking a lot of people right now because it believes they are using what are supposed to be personal sites for commercial reasons and wants to control revenues from "commercial" members better. so removal from facebook is not proof of doing something illegal. i am only bothering to repeat what someone else pointed out so you understand that you could be putting yourself in legal and financial jeopardy as a result of personal attacks. by the way, "harm" in libel cases does not necessarily involve a person's source of income. more than that, it involves harm to a person's reputation. if you are defaming someone, you could end up being sued and paying big damages.


----------



## Carley's Mom

This is just so sad on so many levels. It will remind us all to do our own homework and not take the word of another when it comes to buying a puppy and helping a breeder continue selling ... Go for yourself and look around, decide if you want this breeder to stay in business or not. That is the only way to stop this greedy love for money and no regard for the animals involved.


----------



## Carolinek

This thread started out as a presentation of some very convincing evidence about the judgements against Dalin poodles by both the AKC and in criminal court. I have not been to the kennel, and need to rely on independent regulatory bodies to guard the welfare of these dogs. I think the evidence that was presented early in this thread was very impartial and pretty darn convincing from my viewpoint.

If anything, we usually see these agencies giving animal abusers a warning, a slap on the wrist. So for these sanctions to be so extreme, there must have been a huge problem. 

If she has been railroaded and can present evidence supporting that, I will be the first one to change my mind. 
There are politics everywhere, and I am sure the dog fancy is no different. But this seems to be beyond that.

I want to someday add a larger toy or small mini to my family, so this story is particularly interesting to me- as driving to Virginia would not be out of the question. The volume of dogs on her website would have immediately been a concern to me though.


----------



## cmarrie

Tiny Poodles, 
You and I don't know each other, but I do know that no one should be accused like this. I'm sad to have participated in this thread earlier, and if anything I wrote contributed to you feeling attacked, I am truly sorry.


----------



## Shamrockmommy

The kennel is about an hour from me. This is not surprising news to me, I was only I show biz for about five years but I've seen breeders get over their heads with too many dogs before. 

TP happens to have some Dalin dogs, which she adores and cares for. She's been a caring member of PF. Leave her out of this, alwayson, no matter your agenda. 

The conformation poodle world is back stabbing and cut throat from my experiences. So I am taking this with a grain of salt, honestly.


----------



## Poodlerunner

[QUOTE The conformation poodle world is back stabbing and cut throat from my experiences. So I am taking this with a grain of salt, honestly.[/QUOTE]

TRUTH. I don't know from the Poodle conformation show world but I know WELL from other breeds and it is crazy how breeders tear each other apart. Tenders them all up for PETA to swoop in and finish them off.

This person on here is probably a fellow toy poodle breeder and that speaks volumes about how it is. Instead of trying to sort out what went wrong, lend a hand... it's always a back stabbing, finger pointing, "I'm better than you." mentality. And many many of them live in glass houses. Not for me.

pr


----------



## alwayson

Streetcar said:


> alwayson, to be clear: I do not condone mistreatment of Poodles or any dog, but neither do I see anything but some high level exuberance over a breeder here on PF. I do not have any reverence for Facebook and what gets posted there bears little if any weight for me.



You know it is very clear that some on this site think that what Dalin did is just fine , and own some of her dogs . I say great love them and care for them . I really don't care if you don't believe the facts and the articles that are of public notice . They are for all the see . What you do with this information is up to you . People will judge you by your lack of empathy for these poor animals. People like you just keep the cycle of animal abuse going . One implied that I was a breeder that might be in the same state of Dalin and I was in competition with her selling puppies . Let me make this very clear I don't even live close to Lynn. I sell very few of my kids I breed for me to show.. I have seen some of Dalin's dogs that she has sold to these believers. . That is all I am going to say about that one. I am very active in the ring with my kids, I have some the best lines in my breeding program . My dogs live in the house with me . But when I see a injustice like this these poor animals suffered for years breaks my heart . There was people out there that knew this was going on and stayed silent . I am not the only one speaking out about this and there will be more . The facts are out there and some ( that only come out at night ) if want to keep Dalin in business they will have to live with it . I didn't post the first threads here about the abuse . I have been accused of close to cyber bullying , I was just stating the facts. TP chose to come out and after every one went to bed . Just remember what they think this is ok just by there actions speak volumes of what kind of people they are . Lynn is moving thinking the state won't follow her , but the case will be handed over to that state . And AKC has information on the people that our helping her selling her puppy's . People from all over of helping to stop this . 

:amen:


----------



## PoodlePaws

Lord help us all.
None of us are part of the Dalin problem. We don't condone mistreatment of animals. 

Thank you for pointing out that the authorities have TP's name and she is being investigated for helping Dalin. I hope you know being sarcastic. Honestly it's not anyone's business here. 

Why you chose to speak up after being a silent member and only having 4 posts in about a year, I have no idea. 

You ARE a breeder.


----------



## PoodlePaws

ALSO. I would like to reiterate the fact that TP has never met the breeder, and never visited the kennel. Yet you are holding her accountable as being part of the Dalin problem. You know how weird that sounds right?


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

The grave, puppy mill conditions those dogs are in are a fact. There is direct, conclusive evidence through AKC, a verifiable case number, criminal charges of animal cruelty of public record, (right?) which places Dalin Poodles in deep doo doo and not for the first time. 

If Tiny didn't know that back when she got her dogs...if they were shipped to her and she didn't go there, how could she know? So, raving good things about this breeder was natural, but I thought a little extreme. But maybe that's just Tiny...a little obsessive about things? But we all do that about the breeders we like to some degree or another. 

Tiny's dogs look well cared for and cherished and from all the time posting, she's never given me a reason to think she doesn't care for her dogs...quite the opposite. But the evidence is there now on this breeder. A telephone call can be made to the authorities if someone needs further confirmation. At that point, either one is for this puppy mill or against it...for humane treatment of animals or against it. There's really no point in arguing about something that is fact or is verifiable one way or another. Debating only makes sense with things that are a matter of opinion. 

I think we should stick to the topic which is about the puppy mill. I am glad this was posted because people need to know. This abuse needs to stop and there's no other way but to make it transparent to the public. 

I think Tiny should not be talked about because there's no evidence other than circumstance. I'm guilty too of buying into hearsay at first and I'm sorry. But _now_ you know Tiny, so it's best I think if you don't keep defending or praising her. That's unrealistic. If you have doubts as to the truth, do some more research on your own. These people didn't go to her place and come out making it all up...all those rescuers in tears, the AKC, animal control. This isn't a conspiracy against one person. That's ridiculous.

I hope this thread can get tied back onto it's moorings.


----------



## CharismaticMillie

Thanks for getting the thread back on track, Poodlebeguiled!


----------



## alwayson

PoodlePaws said:


> ALSO. I would like to reiterate the fact that TP has never met the breeder, and never visited the kennel. Yet you are holding her accountable as being part of the Dalin problem. You know how weird that sounds right?


 Oh yes she is the one that kept and still is putting up sites for the Lynn to keep selling her puppy's. I have posted on here a few times . You know if I have to keep explaining all this to you , Its a waste of time, Your friends of TP and Lynns and that is fine ,what they do you think is fine by your action, Like I said before YOUR actions speak Volumes of the type of person you are and what your values in life are all about , I don't have to say a word , Why I post on her now , Again I will tell you for the last time then don't bother me again with your same question First----- because I can ! Second , This is a very important matter that needs to be out the open ! Was waiting on AKC to suspend her and make it public . she was suspended while this was going on also . When ask about it TP lied to me and others that ask about it . . I know she hasn't been to Dalins kennel, So what that makes her less guilty . What she can't read and see pictures that where posted in 2012 I get PoodlePaws your friends with them and think its ok to do what they are doing every one gets it 
. . :amen:


----------



## PoodlePaws

How can she still be selling puppies of they were all seized??


----------



## PoodlePaws

I don't even know Dalin. I live in Texas.


----------



## alwayson

PoodlePaws said:


> How can she still be selling puppies of they were all seized??



why don't you take the time to do some reading before you post .??


----------



## PoodlePaws

I don't have time for your antics. I Don't have time to do research. First you said that all the puppies were seized - then you say she still trying to sell puppies. So which is it. 

Dalin had her pups in deplorable conditions. I don't condone that. You are mental.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Always on. I don't see you being all about the dogs which I wouldn't be offended by. Your posts are all about TP and the Dalin breeder. Of course, you have to point out how much better you are then her, as well. Where are the dogs and what can we do to help them. Why don't you try posting that instead of NONSENSE.


----------



## PoodlePaws

I'll try and put it another way that you can understand. 

Play like this is the scenario. TP bought a birthday cake from a bakery. The cake was delicious and beautiful. What TP didn't know is that the kitchen was filthy. Meanwhile on her website she advertised - giving a shout out to the bakery for what good cakes they have. Then you from the health inspector blast TP for advertising the cakes. 

Does this make sense now?


----------



## Poodlerunner

alwayson said:


> Oh yes she is the one that kept and still is putting up sites for the Lynn to keep selling her puppy's. I have posted on here a few times . You know if I have to keep explaining all this to you , Its a waste of time, Your friends of TP and Lynns and that is fine ,what they do you think is fine by your action, Like I said before YOUR actions speak Volumes of the type of person you are and what your values in life are all about , I don't have to say a word , Why I post on her now , Again I will tell you for the last time then don't bother me again with your same question First----- because I can ! Second , This is a very important matter that needs to be out the open ! Was waiting on AKC to suspend her and make it public . she was suspended while this was going on also . When ask about it TP lied to me and others that ask about it . . I know she hasn't been to Dalins kennel, So what that makes her less guilty . What she can't read and see pictures that where posted in 2012 I get PoodlePaws your friends with them and think its ok to do what they are doing every one gets it
> . . :amen:


If I were TP, I would be seriously worried about this person. She seems to be a stalker that is obsessed with TP. I would alert the authorities about this cyberbullying. Also, her posts are rambling and seem to be escalating and maybe losing control. 

pr


----------



## PoodleRick

Poodlerunner said:


> If I were TP, I would be seriously worried about this person. She seems to be a stalker that is obsessed with TP. I would alert the authorities about this cyberbullying. Also, her posts are rambling and seem to be escalating and maybe losing control.
> 
> pr



Not to mention the punctuation, Oy.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

So, does anybody know what they do with puppy millers after they bust them? What do they do in regards to tracking them, watching for name changes or using someone else to put the kennel name under? How are they really stopped from starting up again somewhere else under another name? The dogs, if registered have those numbers that can be traced. But what if they're not? Does anyone know anything about this sort of thing? I'd be interested in knowing what the authorities do to keep these malignant people from popping up again.


----------



## plumcrazy

I had several reports on this thread (in the MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT!! So I apologize that I didn't "do something" about it at 2:25 AM!) I have now read through the whole thread and find that there have been posts that could be construed as offensive and/or name calling.

One member's sentence structure, grammar, spelling, etc., made it extremely hard for me to read posts by them (I thought my head was going to explode a little bit!) but I gathered enough to post this warning now.

Any member continuing to enhance the drama of this thread will receive a warning and a three day ban. The subject is the Dalin breeder and the penalties and sanctions she will endure from AKC and law enforcement. Any attempt to connect this breeder to members of this forum without concrete evidence will constitute "enhancing the drama".

End it now.

Barb Plum
Moderator


----------



## PoodleRick




----------



## Poodlebeguiled

alwayson said:


> Oh yes she is the one that kept and still is putting up sites for the Lynn to keep selling her puppy's. I have posted on here a few times . You know if I have to keep explaining all this to you , Its a waste of time, Your friends of TP and Lynns and that is fine ,what they do you think is fine by your action, Like I said before YOUR actions speak Volumes of the type of person you are and what your values in life are all about , I don't have to say a word , Why I post on her now , Again I will tell you for the last time then don't bother me again with your same question First----- because I can ! Second , This is a very important matter that needs to be out the open ! Was waiting on AKC to suspend her and make it public . she was suspended while this was going on also . When ask about it TP lied to me and others that ask about it . . I know she hasn't been to Dalins kennel, So what that makes her less guilty . What she can't read and see pictures that where posted in 2012 I get PoodlePaws your friends with them and think its ok to do what they are doing every one gets it
> . . :amen:


In America and I think a lot of countries, the burden of proof lies with the accuser. AND a person is presumed innocent until proven guilty. You are making statements which are unsupported by any proof. So, before you continue to make the unsubstantiated and idle ramblings which are damaging, please prepare your case with concrete evidence. Having someone just say something isn't evidence. It's called hearsay. It's speculative, not conclusive. So, how about you go prepare all your irrefutable evidence. What you're doing is something that can get you into trouble. And then how effective will you be to the cause of animal abuse?



And now I'm off to the dentist...which is looking pretty fun right about now. hahahahaha.


----------



## spotsonofbun

I dont really know anything about this particular breeder but I would assume that with convictions and investigations that the allegations are bad enough and strong enough for people to be discouraged from getting pups from this person. 

I will say however that I wouldnt care if the dogs were all in beautiful and clean continentals and not matted messes because I would never do business with a mass breeder, no matter the ribbons and the conditions. 

I see no reason for a breeder to have breeding dogs in double digits. There is no need for mass breeding other than money or hoarding. 

I know it used to be common practice for Show breeders to have kennels but I just dont think that is appropriate any more, especially from what we know of about socialisation and the damage of social deprivation. 

I have nothing to say to individual members but I do think this is a reminder not to get blinded by titles or even health tests, one of the most basic rules of puppy buying is see the place where they are raised and kept. You never know what people are hiding behind closed doors.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Who has the Poods that have been seized? Are foster homes needed?

pr


----------



## kayfabulous6

Oh no.. How sad for those dogs. ? 

Tiny poodles,you still have every right to be proud of your gorgeous girls. We have always had the mentality here on PF that it doesn't matter where any of our poodles come from- it's where they are now that matters the most. 

There are so many poodles of so many stories and backgrounds here and we love them all the same. You are one of the sweetest, most caring people here on the forum and we all know darn well that you absolutely love your dogs. I'm so sorry that you've had to deal with all of this hassle. Give the girls a kiss from Ruby and I. ?


----------



## mom2Zoe

Tiny Poodles said:


> I have never been there myself (though I was welcomed to do so), but I have personally known two people who have,as well as dozens of "cyber friends" who have been there, and never had a bad thing to say, and told me that they were as thrilled with their Dalin puppies as I have been with my three.
> Moreover, I don't think that there is any doubt that Animal Control has been a frequent visitor to the location, and if they deem that she provides suitable care to the legal limit of dogs, how can the allegations that are being made (including the nameless photos put out by PCA be true)?
> If those photos and these allegations are proven to be true, then I would join you in taking action against VA Animal Control for permitting that to go on!! I would be heartbroken that that the woman that I believe to be a kind and caring person who has made incredible contributions to the breed would do such a thing, but I would be furious at Animal Control for permitting it to continue, and would do anything in my power to come down on them for it.


I do not think animal controls frequent visits to a facility or citations stop these puppy mills from selling.They really could care less about suitable care either.
Zoe came from a breeder who was listed among 100 worst breeders . There were a million citations, quotes of animal cruelty, horrible pics, I could go on and on. He continues to sell his pups and has not been shut down, has no problem operating his business.
I have a hard time understanding all of this.I really don't know much about how puppy mills.

TP what matters is you take care of your dogs with great pride. They have a wonderful forever home with lots of love.
This thread should be about Dalin poodles, unfortunately you are caught up in it. i could not have expressed it any better than minipoo, so I will not reiterate.


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## sweetheartsrodeo

I am very leery of making a post here, as I do not want to cause a problem, but there are a few things I would like to say. 
1. Any animal deserves to have a happy, healthy, wonderful life with a loving family. There are many breeders that have lot's of dogs that are like family members. 
2. I hope that any of the dogs that might have been taken are warm and feeling loved. 
3. I do not believe that there is a member on the PF that would ever intentionally hurt their poodle or condone the harming of a poodle. 
4. I have a small pack (8, and sometimes 9 when Reba stays with me). When each of my dogs came to live with me they were not in good condition. All of them were rescues. Their past was not great, but what matters now is their future. I love my pups with all my heart, and would do anything for them. I believe that I am part of the majority here, as I know there isn't a person on this site that does not love their dogs beyond words. 

I do hope that honesty prevails... It hurts my heart that members of the PF are being harassed and hurt over something that was beyond their control. 
I will end with the quote I have on my computer "Keep Calm and Love Your Poodle".


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## JudyD

According to what I read in a brief web search, in 2008 a potential client made a visit to the kennel, found filthy, deplorable conditions, and reported them. Within a day or two after that, the county animal control officer visited and reported the dogs were "fine," although the kennel smelled of urine, and four days after the initial complaint, a vet who vaccinated over a hundred dogs said the kennel was very clean and the dogs were in good condition. Ten days after that, the husband took 6 dogs to a shelter, then took 6 more a few days later. These dogs went to rescue operations who said the dogs were dirty, matted, emaciated, basically in deplorable condition. The animal control agent submitted her findings to a county attorney, who turned them over to an assistant attorney, who found only a failure to license. It seems there's quite a discrepancy between official findings and those of the client and the rescue people. 

The same web search showed the breeder's husband to be a highly respected, well educated, award winning county extension agent. Perhaps the officials were attempting to shield the extension agent.


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## Chagall's mom

JudyD said:


> According to what I read in a brief web search, in *2008*...The animal control agent submitted her findings to a county attorney, who turned them over to an assistant attorney, who found only a failure to license. It seems there's quite a discrepancy between official findings and those of the client and the rescue people.
> 
> The same web search showed the breeder's husband to be a highly respected, well educated, award winning county extension agent. Perhaps the officials were attempting to shield the extension agent.


Looks to me like there was an offense on *08/13/2012* that resulted in an arrest and conviction. This is from the public record.

Virginia Court Case Information
Richmond County Circuit - Criminal Division
Case Details

Case Number: CR12000184-00 Filed: 12/27/2012 Commenced by: General District Court Appeal Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA 
Defendant: LIDDINGTON, LYNN KAREN Sex: Female Race: White Caucasian (Non-Hispanic) DOB: 04/24/**** 
Address: WARSAW,VA 22572 
Charge: ANIMAL CRUELTY: DEPRIVATION Code Section: 3.2-6570 Charge Type: Misdemeanor Class: 1 
Offense Date: 08/13/2012 Arrest Date: 08/14/2012 


Hearings 
#	Date	Time	Type	Room	Plea	Duration	Jury	Result
1 01/28/2013 9:00AM To Be Set Set For Trial 
2 04/10/2013 9:00AM Trial Set For Trial 
3 06/26/2013 1:30PM Motion - Other Pre-Trial Withdrawn 
4 09/03/2013 9:00AM Jury Trial No Continued 
5 11/14/2013 9:00AM Jury Trial 11 hour(s) 45 minutes Yes Deferred Disp. Terminated 
6 12/09/2013 11:00AM Sentencing Judgment Entered (Fines & Costs)

Final Disposition
Disposition Code:
Guilty 
Disposition Date:
12/09/2013 
Concluded By:
Trial - Judge With Witness 
Fine Amount:
$1000.00 
Costs:
$851.00


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## Poodlebeguiled

Chagall's mom said:


> Looks to me like there was an offense on *08/13/2012* that resulted in an arrest and conviction. This is from the public record.
> 
> Virginia Court Case Information
> Richmond County Circuit - Criminal Division
> Case Details
> 
> Case Number: CR12000184-00 Filed: 12/27/2012 Commenced by: General District Court Appeal Locality: COMMONWEALTH OF VA
> Defendant: LIDDINGTON, LYNN KAREN Sex: Female Race: White Caucasian (Non-Hispanic) DOB: 04/24/****
> Address: WARSAW,VA 22572
> Charge: ANIMAL CRUELTY: DEPRIVATION Code Section: 3.2-6570 Charge Type: Misdemeanor Class: 1
> Offense Date: 08/13/2012 Arrest Date: 08/14/2012
> 
> 
> Hearings
> #	Date	Time	Type	Room	Plea	Duration	Jury	Result
> 1 01/28/2013 9:00AM To Be Set Set For Trial
> 2 04/10/2013 9:00AM Trial Set For Trial
> 3 06/26/2013 1:30PM Motion - Other Pre-Trial Withdrawn
> 4 09/03/2013 9:00AM Jury Trial No Continued
> 5 11/14/2013 9:00AM Jury Trial 11 hour(s) 45 minutes Yes Deferred Disp. Terminated
> 6 12/09/2013 11:00AM Sentencing Judgment Entered (Fines & Costs)
> 
> Final Disposition
> Disposition Code:
> Guilty
> Disposition Date:
> 12/09/2013
> Concluded By:
> Trial - Judge With Witness
> Fine Amount:
> $1000.00
> Costs:
> $851.00


Well done Chagall's mom. I knew we could count on you to pass on some factual information. 

My head is still spinning from this very upsetting thing. However can these people be permanently stopped? Some kind of organization needs to follow her and others like her around and stay on top of it, I guess. It's so very disturbing to think this may well continue and it does everywhere. What the hell is wrong with people?


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## dcail

I second that "Well, done Chagall's mom" for putting it out there in black & white for all to read!!


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## JudyD

I knew there were other incidents. I was just...well, surprised isn't quite adequate...to realize when I read the 2008 story that her husband is a county extension agent. I thought they were supposed to be well versed in good animal husbandry. How could he have let things get to such a state?


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## Carley's Mom

There is a poodle rescue in Richmond. I would guess some of those dogs will be going there. I would think they will all go into some form of rescue, but I do not know, and can only hope, that they will all be sprayed and neutered in loving homes soon. 

IMHO, if you buy a puppy without knowing and SEEING where if came from you are all taking a chance of supporting this kind of breeder/puppy mill. I am about 40 mins away from a Standard Poodle Breeder that won at Westminster. My sister was ready to take me there when I starting looking for a dog, but she let it slip that the dogs were kept outside in kennels... I was no longer interested. If you can't support the treatment of the dogs, don't buy from them.


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## PoodlePaws

I hope all keep in mind that I NEVER said the abuse wasn't true or didn't happen. My beef with alwayson was her attack of TP.


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## Tiny Poodles

PoodlePaws said:


> I hope all keep in mind that I NEVER said the abuse wasn't true or didn't happen. My beef with alwayson was her attack of TP.



I never it wasn't true or didn't happen either - I can only relate my own personal experiences, and try to look at the evidence presented with a clear, and not hysterical mind.


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## Tiny Poodles

But for the record, D's (alwayson) belief's about my involvement in Lynn's business are completely false, fabricated, and delusional!


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## MollyMuiMa

Oh My ..........2008 to 2013, that is years and years of countless puppies! But now I am really a little confused.................in the beginning of all her problems, 40 dogs were seized but there were over 90+ on the property . She was able to keep 50 dogs and got duly licensed and checked out to be able to keep those dogs....so now I come to the conclusion that she still has many many dogs, but is unable to AKC register them?
What is to prevent her from just registering dogs in one of the junk registries and continue breeding and selling to the masses as a source of income or getting 'friends' to re-register them as the 'new owners' with the AKC ....is that possible to do with that with the AKC ? How about the UKC? will they register them? The possibility that this will not stop her, in my opinion is awfully real right now, unless someone can tell me otherwise, as I see she is selling her property/kennel and moving ..............BTW the pictures of her home and kennel are quite nice!!!!! It's a huge property!!
Hoping someone can answer to some of my confusion!


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## alwayson

Carley's Mom said:


> There is a poodle rescue in Richmond. I would guess some of those dogs will be going there. I would think they will all go into some form of rescue, but I do not know, and can only hope, that they will all be sprayed and neutered in loving homes soon.
> 
> IMHO, if you buy a puppy without knowing and SEEING where if came from you are all taking a chance of supporting this kind of breeder/puppy mill. I am about 40 mins away from a Standard Poodle Breeder that won at Westminster. My sister was ready to take me there when I starting looking for a dog, but she let it slip that the dogs were kept outside in kennels... I was no longer interested. If you can't support the treatment of the dogs, don't buy from them.


 Very wise advise , the internet is just a tool and you have to be smart enough to do your own research , as you did , You have to remember that the rescue was done in 2012, there is more to come of this , the dogs are safe now that where there . More will come out , and more people will be charged, justice moves slow .


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## alwayson

MollyMuiMa said:


> Oh My ..........2008 to 2013, that is years and years of countless puppies! But now I am really a little confused.................in the beginning of all her problems, 40 dogs were seized but there were over 90+ on the property . She was able to keep 50 dogs and got duly licensed and checked out to be able to keep those dogs....so now I come to the conclusion that she still has many many dogs, but is unable to AKC register them?
> What is to prevent her from just registering dogs in one of the junk registries and continue breeding and selling to the masses as a source of income or getting 'friends' to re-register them as the 'new owners' with the AKC ....is that possible to do with that with the AKC ? How about the UKC? will they register them? The possibility that this will not stop her, in my opinion is awfully real right now, unless someone can tell me otherwise, as I see she is selling her property/kennel and moving ..............BTW the pictures of her home and kennel are quite nice!!!!! It's a huge property!!
> Hoping someone can answer to some of my confusion!


 Yes are so right , she is selling the breeding dogs puppies with out papers , she has been trying to buying dogs and would put them in the names of the people that are helping her sell the dogs . AKC is a where of this and the people that will try to reg the dogs under there names . Dalin kennels is known for producing bad stifles, and bad bits lack of under jaw and any dog that is bought to breed should be OFA tested and not bred unit it has been cleared of those genetic defects. If Lynn really cared about the health of the dogs she would sell them with no breeding rights , but she just floods the market with these poor animals, Buyer beware of .:amen:


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## Tiny Poodles

Well isn't that interesting - I was googling around on this topic, and a year after that 2008 Article about Dalin, in that very same local paper, I found an article written by the Director of Emergency Response team for PETA. You know, the very same team PETA that has been in all of the other Newspapers for stealing a pet Chihuahua off a families porch and immediately killing it.
I wonder if this little PETA hometown paper covered that story....
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2009/012009/01062009/434924


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## Tiny Poodles

Oh and while we are telling stories about Dalin knees, an interesting thing happened in our little Facebook Dalin Poodle Group this Summer. Lynn put a three year old Champion up for adoption. We all wondered why she had retired this boy so early, but he was snapped up in a second - a lovely couple drove from New Jersey to VA to pick him up, and it was love at first sight. 
When they got him home, they did panic a little - their other two bigger dogs were picking on him and he had a couple of potty accidents, but our group rallied around with lots of good advice on slowly introducing the dogs, and potty training tips, and amazingly within a week, all of the issues completely turned around! Yup, one week and this boy was totally potty trained and a well integrated member of the family, loved to bits by both his dog and human family, and they remain happy to this day

Oh, I almost forgot - why he had been retired and put up for adoption so young - the woman that some of you say cares nothing but making money off of innocent dogs, she bought this show quality dog from another breeder for thousands of dollars, she spent quite a few more thousand dollars having a championship put on him, but very soon thereafter his knees went bad, and so she spent another few thousand dollars on surgery to repair his knees, and once recovered from the surgery, she put him up for adoption. His adoption fee of $400 was donated to rescue.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Because of the horrendous facts of abuse, the condition, the numbers of dogs, their living situation..._nothing_ good that she has done will ever, ever redeem her. How can you believe some good deed will lighten the heaviness of her monstrous behavior toward all those dogs. There is NOTHING that can possibly minimize it. Nothing!


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## Tiny Poodles

I'm sorry, I thought that this thread was to talk about the facts about Dalin, I missed the detail that we can only report horrible things. Sorry, I don't have any personal knowledge of horrible things to contribute, so I will stop contributing.


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## poolann

MollyMuiMa said:


> Oh My ..........2008 to 2013, that is years and years of countless puppies! But now I am really a little confused.................in the beginning of all her problems, 40 dogs were seized but there were over 90+ on the property . She was able to keep 50 dogs and got duly licensed and checked out to be able to keep those dogs....so now I come to the conclusion that she still has many many dogs, but is unable to AKC register them?
> What is to prevent her from just registering dogs in one of the junk registries and continue breeding and selling to the masses as a source of income or getting 'friends' to re-register them as the 'new owners' with the AKC ....is that possible to do with that with the AKC ? How about the UKC? will they register them? The possibility that this will not stop her, in my opinion is awfully real right now, unless someone can tell me otherwise, as I see she is selling her property/kennel and moving ..............BTW the pictures of her home and kennel are quite nice!!!!! It's a huge property!!
> Hoping someone can answer to some of my confusion!


UKC should not register them IF they are actually checking registration #'s which you are required to provide along with a 3 generation pedigree. I don't work there so I'm not sure how well they check. Dogs are required to be AKC, Canadian Kennel Club or legitimate foreign registration to be registered unless parents were registered UKC. They do not accept CKC (continental kennel club). UKC also takes disciplinary action in abuse cases.


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## alwayson

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Because of the horrendous facts of abuse, the condition, the numbers of dogs, their living situation..._nothing_ good that she has done will ever, ever redeem her. How can you believe some good deed will lighten the heaviness of her monstrous behavior toward all those dogs. There is NOTHING that can possibly minimize it. Nothing!


 Of course you right , she has been doing it for year. Any one that really cares about animals and really loves there breed would never present this kind of person as a good breeder of anything The facts are out there. 
I think one protest to much ! Sounds like a car sales person to me !


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## MiniPoo

Most of us form opinions of people based on our own experience. I think TP is giving her personal experience with Dalin so that we can understand that from her point of view, she was a caring breeder. 

All of us read about how Dalin kept Timi an extra month when TP wanted her so badly because the breeder wanted to make sure that Timi was eating well on her own. All of TP dogs from Dalin were healthy and there were good stories on the Facebook page about how people were happy with puppies/dogs from Dalin. From TP's personal experience, she was a good breeder.

I think TP posts provides good information as to motivation. Why would Dalin keep so many dogs in horrible condition while caring so well for others? If profit was her only motivation, she would not care how any of them were treated. I am wondering if Dalin is a hoarder, which is a mental problem. Hoarders think they are taking good care of dogs even when they are not. 

Does the good care Dalin took of some dogs offset the bad care of others? Of course not. But the bad care of those dogs does not take away from the good care she did provide. 

People who abuse dogs need to be stopped, but I think we should be careful not to paint everyone either good or bad. We are all combinations of good and bad. That is why I think we need to hear the good stories about Dalin along with the bad so that we can get a better picture of WHY she did what she did instead of us just pointing a finger and saying "EVIL, EVIL!" Stop her abuse, yes, but that should not stop us from trying to understand WHY she did it, and to do that we need as much information as anyone (including TP) has to tell us.


----------



## Beaches

Most of us following the thread are shocked, horrified and sickened by the facts presented and, yes, they are facts, Lynn has been charged. 
We are also feeling badly for our Tiny who has had good experiences with Lynn. We are happy it's worked out well for you and your girls Tiny. 
I think we are only confused and saddened by your defence of her.


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## MiniPoo

Beaches said:


> Most of us following the thread are shocked, horrified and sickened by the facts presented and, yes, they are facts, Lynn has been charged.
> We are also feeling badly for our Tiny who has had good experiences with Lynn. We are happy it's worked out well for you and your girls Tiny.
> I think we are only confused and saddened by your defence of her.


The only reason to feel badly for Tiny who had a good experience with Lynn is because of people criticizing Tiny for telling of her good experiences, which is just a part of the whole story of Lynn's breeding career. You do not speak for me when you say you are confused and saddened by TP's posts. I hope you do not speak for the majority.

Let TP tell her of experiences with Dalin without labeling it a "defense of Lynn."


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Beaches said:


> Most of us following the thread are shocked, horrified and sickened by the facts presented and, yes, they are facts, Lynn has been charged.
> We are also feeling badly for our Tiny who has had good experiences with Lynn. We are happy it's worked out well for you and your girls Tiny.
> I think we are only confused and saddened by your defence of her.



I am sorry, I truly do not understand why my reporting my actual experiences and knowledge are perceived by some as "defense of Lynn"? I thought that in this democracy that we live in, all facts are welcome - ones that support or refute a conclusion...


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## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> The only reason to feel badly for Tiny who had a good experience with Lynn is because of people criticizing Tiny for telling of her good experiences, which is just a part of the whole story of Lynn's breeding career. You do not speak for me when you say you are confused and saddened by TP's posts. I hope you do not speak for the majority.
> 
> Let TP tell her of experiences with Dalin without labeling it a "defense of Lynn."



Clicking the button wasn't enough, I just had to type out the words THANK YOU to Minipoo


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## fjm

For me it comes back again and again to the same thing - go and see for yourself before buying a puppy! It is not enough to say dogs are in the house or in kennels, or to count the number of dogs (although the number of staff required to keep 50 dogs in good conditions, well exercised and happily socialised would surely carry prohibitive costs, let alone managing 150), or to rely on show results or DNA testing. Dogs can have warm, spacious kennels in a well built block and superb exercise facilities, they can be housed in stacked crates in a basement in the "home", or anything in between; these days most breeders know enough about testing to do at least the minimum; a number of show breeders have over the years been ruthless in their pursuit of titles and stud fees. Unless you, or someone you trust implicitly, has actually visited and assessed the set up how can you know the conditions in which your pup's parents live, and how your puppy has been raised? A well respected breeder can suffer the sort of life changes that undermine the best of us, or a borderline operation can slide down the slippery slope of profiteering, treating the dogs in their care as objects rather than sentient beings. I believe every puppy buyer has a responsibility not only to the pup they buy, but to its parents and grandparents and future siblings - buying without due diligence means more dogs may suffer in the future.

I will now step down from my soap box...!


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## alwayson

MiniPoo said:


> Most of us form opinions of people based on our own experience. I think TP is giving her personal experience with Dalin so that we can understand that from her point of view, she was a caring breeder.
> 
> All of us read about how Dalin kept Timi an extra month when TP wanted her so badly because the breeder wanted to make sure that Timi was eating well on her own. All of TP dogs from Dalin were healthy and there were good stories on the Facebook page about how people were happy with puppies/dogs from Dalin. From TP's personal experience, she was a good breeder.
> 
> I think TP posts provides good information as to motivation. Why would Dalin keep so many dogs in horrible condition while caring so well for others? If profit was her only motivation, she would not care how any of them were treated. I am wondering if Dalin is a hoarder, which is a mental problem. Hoarders think they are taking good care of dogs even when they are not.
> 
> Does the good care Dalin took of some dogs offset the bad care of others? Of course not. But the bad care of those dogs does not take away from the good care she did provide.
> 
> People who abuse dogs need to be stopped, but I think we should be careful not to paint everyone either good or bad. We are all combinations of good and bad. That is why I think we need to hear the good stories about Dalin along with the bad so that we can get a better picture of WHY she did what she did instead of us just pointing a finger and saying "EVIL, EVIL!" Stop her abuse, yes, but that should not stop us from trying to understand WHY she did it, and to do that we need as much information as anyone (including TP) has to tell us.


The only way people are going to be stopped is stop buying from them . Yes years ago Lynn was a breeder that took care of her animals , but money became her goal . Most " Not all " of the caring story's your hearing are from way way back when Lynn was trying to make a Name for her self Like we all are trying to do, she use to test but she hasn't tested a dog in years and the ones she has no have never been tested for PRA , stifles and so and so on . On a real educational site I have heard story's from real breeders ( that show their dogs and care and only sell with a spay /neuter contract ) that she sold them unsound dogs. I know personal I never would bring one of her dogs in to my breeding program . If you don't have a strong foundation on any thing your wasting your time . All puppies are cute , but you have to look at more then cute if you want a strong foundation


----------



## Beaches

You are correct Mini poo, I may not speak on your behalf or anyone else's and for that I apologize. I have reread all the posts and stand by my personal feelings of Tiny's defense of Lynn.


----------



## JainaSolo

Wow. Going through this thread has been educational for sure. I know I haven't posted in a while since I got my puppy but I, too, have a Dalin dog. I am 100% on TP's side with this. We only know what we know and whether it is truth or lies we still love our dogs and have had nothing but good experiences with Lynn. I personally drove to Virginia to Lynn's home and picked up my dog. I saw several of her puppies that we're going home with more of our "cyber friends" in the weeks to follow. All the dogs I saw were in excellent health, happy and alert puppies. It is sad to think that this could be true about Lynn because from meeting her and seeing her with the dogs you would never think something like abuse or neglect could come from someone like her. Before buying my puppy I spoke at considerable length with Lynn almost every day as well as other Dalin puppy parents who all told me what wonderful dogs they were and how amazing Lynn was. I can only hope that the complete truth comes out so we can all put it behind us whether good or bad. I think it is horrible that some of us Dalin pet parents have been removed/blocked from several Facebook pages JUST BECAUSE we have Dalin dogs. It's beyond ridiculous. Just think, if Lynn isn't allowed to breed anymore where will Dalin owners go to get their perfect puppy? Certainly not any of the breeders who shunned us from their group just by association...


----------



## sweetheartsrodeo

I think that is the over-reaching thought we need to keep in mind. The people who own her pups, love their dogs. I am very concerned that there are such mixed reports, and will not side either way, as I don't want to put anyone down or hurt feelings. It seems so odd to me that there are such childish antics going on with being removed from FB groups just because you used that breeder. I agree with something that was said earlier, if she has become a hoarder (not saying she has - IF) then this is a psychological thing... Not being a breeder, but doing rescue I don't understand that high of a number of dogs... I have 8, and oh my goodness they keep me on my toes. We are constantly brushing and grooming... With my guys, this is a full time job... How does one take care of the needs of 50+ dogs? How do you socialize and play with them? There just are not enough hours in the day... 

I do want to re-iterate TP I am not attacking you, you had no way of knowing and your experience has been totally different. Jaina, it seems yours has too. I have no doubt that your poodles are pampered and live the most exquisite poodle life... 

Is there anything that can be done now to help the poodles that have been placed in rescue? Are fosters needed? Is there a fund? To be honest I am not as concerned about the person, as I am the poodles. She is an adult and can make choices and take care of herself, but the poodles need advocates until the whole mess is sorted out.


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## Poodlerunner

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> Is there anything that can be done now to help the poodles that have been placed in rescue? Are fosters needed? Is there a fund? To be honest I am not as concerned about the person, as I am the poodles. She is an adult and can make choices and take care of herself, but the poodles need advocates until the whole mess is sorted out.


I asked the same thing but there were ZERO responses. 

pr


----------



## JainaSolo

Poodlerunner said:


> sweetheartsrodeo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there anything that can be done now to help the poodles that have been placed in rescue? Are fosters needed? Is there a fund? To be honest I am not as concerned about the person, as I am the poodles. She is an adult and can make choices and take care of herself, but the poodles need advocates until the whole mess is sorted out.
> 
> 
> 
> I asked the same thing but there were ZERO responses.
> 
> pr
Click to expand...


As far as I know she currently has within the legal number of poodles so no there is no need for fosters at this time. Until Animal Control says otherwise I guess. :/


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlerunner said:


> I asked the same thing but there were ZERO responses.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Which shows that folks are not paying close enough attention to the details - the dogs above the legal limit were taken from her two years ago. Currently she has no charges against her and passes constant inspections - none of her remaining dogs are being taken from her.


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## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> Which shows that folks are not paying close enough attention to the details - the dogs above the legal limit were taken from her two years ago. Currently she has no charges against her and passes constant inspections - none of her remaining dogs are being taken from her.


yes, I would be guilty of not fully getting it until now. AKC has suspended her but the county has not taken her dogs. I wonder why? How can AKC find her guilty and the county takes dogs that are over the legal limit but leaves dogs that are inhumanely treated? It is just making no sense. 

pr


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## Carolinek

Below is a link to the requirements for commercial dog breeders in Va. they can have up to 50 dogs, not including puppies. There also was a provision for going above that limit. That leaves it pretty open.

I didn't see any stipulation for minimum space the dogs have to be housed in, although there were provisions for vet care.

I don't know about Virginia, but these regulations are notoriously under enforced. Puppy mills bother me even more than the individual idiot that dumps their dog, as they perpetuate the warehousing of dogs for profit. Can someone care for 50 dogs plus their puppies? Of course there could be loads of puppies because the whole point of the dogs is to produce litters- which brings the numbers up even more. With appropriate staff, I think they could be kept humanely- it just isn't what happens usually, and not an ideal situation for a dog.

Puppy mill dogs in rescue are tough, depending on the severity of the mill. Some are like holocaust survivors. 

https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+3.2-6507.2


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## Locket

The rescue I volunteer with was involved with a breeder who had numerous champions, loved her dogs, did health testing, registered them, and her dogs are amazing lovely dogs.

The problem though was that she had over 30 dogs in her kennel, and while she wanted to keep them all, she did eventually realize that they were not getting the care they needed, and asked for help from the rescue. 

When the rescue people arrived at her home, they saw a handful of happy, wonderful dogs. When they went into the kennel, it was an *entirely different situation*. 

I had the pleasure of fostering two of her dogs, and I can't say enough good things about those dogs, and the people that have her dogs also cannot get over how amazing they are.

But I would NEVER recommend someone buy from this breeder. I would NEVER support this breeder, even after she came to realize she was in over her head. What she put those dogs through is NOT okay, and never will be okay.


If Dalin was/is making a living off her dogs, *she is not breeding responsibly*. Is she keeps her dogs in kennels, or needs to have a kennel(s) to house all her dogs, *she is not breeding responsibly.* If she has been charged with any type of abuse, neglect, etc., in the past or present, *she is not breeding responsibly!*

I just hope that all dogs in her "care" know what it is like to be happy and loved.


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## Chagall's mom

sweetheartsrodeo said:


> Is there anything that can be done now to help the poodles that have been placed in rescue? Are fosters needed? Is there a fund? To be honest I am not as concerned about the person, as I am the poodles. She is an adult and can make choices and take care of herself, but the poodles need advocates until the whole mess is sorted out.





Poodlerunner said:


> I asked the same thing but there were ZERO responses.
> 
> pr


I just reached out to Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue Foundation President, to tell her some members want to know how they might help. This is her response, which she consented to me sharing. Thanks for caring, friends! ~Chagall's mom (a/k/a Debbie)

*"This is long over, Debbie. PCA Rescue took in, loved and cared for 43 of her [Dalin's] neglected toys and placed them. If anyone wants to help, they can make a donation to PCA Rescue. There is PayPal and an address on our website - www.poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org. Thanks very much. And a lot of credit goes to Tidelands Poodle Rescue and June Noyes. They were hands' on those poor dogs." ~ Cindy Crawley
*
Cindy also mentioned she authored the article in PCA Poodle Papers shared earlier in the thread. Poodle Papers: Fall 2012 pages 29-31


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## Tiny Poodles

Chagall's mom said:


> I just reached out to Cindy Crawley, PCA Rescue Foundation President, to tell her some members want to know how they might help. This is her response, which she consented to me sharing. Thanks for caring, friends! ~Chagall's mom (a/k/a Debbie)
> 
> 
> 
> *"This is long over, Debbie. PCA Rescue took in, loved and cared for 43 of her [Dalin's] neglected toys and placed them. If anyone wants to help, they can make a donation to PCA Rescue. There is PayPal and an address on our website - www.poodleclubofamericarescuefoundationinc.org. Thanks very much. And a lot of credit goes to Tidelands Poodle Rescue and June Noyes. They were hands' on those poor dogs." ~ Cindy Crawley
> 
> *
> 
> Cindy also mentioned she authored the article in PCA Poodle Papers shared earlier in the thread. Poodle Papers: Fall 2012 pages 29-31



Can you please ask Cindy Crawley to verify that everything in the article that she authored was factual, and that it was about Lynn DeRosa, and that all of those photos were actual photos of Dogs belonging to and confiscated from Lynn DeRosa?


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## Chagall's mom

*NOTE:*
The text and pictures for the VA seizure begins on *page 30* and ends on *page 31*.Poodle Papers: Fall 2012


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## Tiny Poodles

Chagall's mom said:


> *NOTE:*
> 
> The text and pictures for the VA seizure begins on *page 30* and ends on *page 31*.Poodle Papers: Fall 2012



And they never ever said that the breeder that they are speaking of is Dalin nor that the dogs pictured were hers. If those were her dogs, they need to say that.


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## fjm

I think that there is often a problem reporting a case that is sub judice - that is certainly the situation in the UK. When the case then drags on for years through the judicial process of hearings and appeals, whether in the courts or the Kennel Club, the final decision may be very remote from the original action, and in the meantime there are restrictions on what can and cannot be reported. In the UK such cases often also include a deal to ensure that the dogs do not have to wait in kennels for the final judgment - the charges are reduced in exchange for the dogs being signed over to rescue.


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## Carolinek

It is very difficult to sort through this thread, as it has gotten pretty inflammatory at points. I keep trying to look at facts. This is what I have concluded so far in trying to figure this out.

1. Dalin Kennels still has an active website, although it looks like there are no puppies available. There are over 20 adult dogs, most without pictures. She can still legally breed as long as she stays below 50 adult dogs, provides vet care, and passes inspections, per Va law. This is the link to the kennel:
Dalin Show Kennels [Adopted Puppies]

2. I was curious about this whole FB thing and looked at an open FB site for poodle puppies for sale. It was easy to find. I found a posting on 11/12/14 for poodles from sale from Dalin. (full proper name reference to PF member has been removed) 

The puppies are not advertised AKC. There is nothing illegal about this, Dalin can sell poodles and anybody can endorse them. There is a FB site with AKC poodle puppies, but it is a closed site, so I could not look at that. 

3. The court case posted by Chagall's mom with a count of animal cruelty confirms that conditions at the kennel were bad at that time.

4. The suspension from AKC I think speaks for itself. 

5. The pictures from poodle rescue do not have Dalin's name, that is true. I wonder if it is the policy of the magazine not to list names. They may have received legal advice to avoid that, but that's speculation on my part. Given all the other information presented, particularly the communication from poodle rescue, I think it is highly likely they are Dalin dogs.

So.... from a legal standpoint, Dalin was convicted of animal cruelty in the past. As far as anyone knows, she is complying with the law at present. She is not misrepresenting AKC puppies, from what I could see. Endorsing her as a breeder is also not against the law.

Ethically, morally, everyone will have a different perspective on this. I think the Dalin kennel is a high volume show mill, with little regard for the welfare of their animals. That is my opinion after looking at the facts. Just because you can legally do something, doesn't mean you should. The laws only stipulate minimal care for dogs in commercial breeding facilities, and Va law has nothing about minimum size of runs, so dogs can spend their whole lives in tiny cages. 

Yes, she has very pretty poodles, and from the posts of people who have her puppies, those puppies are great pets. I have nothing against those pups, or their owners....and also understand that Dalin may not have been suspect when the pups were purchased. I have rescue dogs that are also great pets, but they probably were bred in puppy mills as part of the designer dog craze. I love my dogs, but in a heart beat I would wipe out the mess of a system that produced them, and the laws that support that system. Dalin may be a purebred show breeder with very pretty poodles, but from what I can see she is no different from any other puppy mill.


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## Tiny Poodles

The thought occurs to me that perhaps it is a very bad idea for Poodle Variety, AKC, and PCA to make producing the greatest number of champions in a year and having the top producing dogs the highest achievement that a breeder can have. 
Those aspirations just encourage them to get in over their heads, don't they....
Those achievements used to impress me, but now, not so much...


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## fjm

I think that is a very good point, TP - it could so easily act as a perverse incentive to breed more and more...


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## Tiny Poodles

Especially when you are talking toys, who might produce 1-2 pups a litter. Seems like ONLY a kennel breeder would have a hope of reaching the top.


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## CharismaticMillie

Which is *exactly* why a breeder who produces the most champions does not always equate with the most responsible breeder.


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## SusanG

The way to stop this is by strong legislation and disciplinary action in each state. Limits should be placed on number of dogs a breeder may have, animal abuse laws must be more specific and periodic checks made on larger businesses (now it seems the law looks the other way until someone complains). Punishment for first offense has to be financially painful enough to be a deterrent and license to own dogs revoked on a "two strikes you're out basis". A slap on the hand is not enough nor is revoking AKC as there are too many other avenues open. When a breeder has so many dogs the lesser ones become a number like cattle or sheep so not surprising that some of those poor animals will fall through the cracks unless they are the favorites used to show or display purposes, etc. Horrible how heartless some people are to the pain and suffering of other living beings.


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## SusanG

Caroline - you are so right. We are lucky in NY to have legislators who go after abusers and have enacted stricter laws. Its a shame it takes an egregious case to bring it to the attention of the police. But once someone is found out, NY law now has more teeth to stop abuse. I'm thinking last year when they uncovered the puppy mill that was neglecting border collies and leaving them out in the freezing cold without shelter. In that case, the police did little, despite complaints and it took bringing it to the attention of a state legislator to make it stop.


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## Carolinek

SusanG said:


> Caroline - you are so right. We are lucky in NY to have legislators who go after abusers and have enacted stricter laws. Its a shame it takes an egregious case to bring it to the attention of the police. But once someone is found out, NY law now has more teeth to stop abuse. I'm thinking last year when they uncovered the puppy mill that was neglecting border collies and leaving them out in the freezing cold without shelter. In that case, the police did little, despite complaints and it took bringing it to the attention of a state legislator to make it stop.


 Yes, that was a horrible case with those collies living out in the cold. We do have some good legislators here for animal rights, very lucky


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## Carolinek

Tiny Poodles said:


> The thought occurs to me that perhaps it is a very bad idea for Poodle Variety, AKC, and PCA to make producing the greatest number of champions in a year and having the top producing dogs the highest achievement that a breeder can have.
> Those aspirations just encourage them to get in over their heads, don't they....
> Those achievements used to impress me, but now, not so much...


 TP - that's an excellent point! Quality, not quantity.


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## Tiny Poodles

Carolinek said:


> TP - that's an excellent point! Quality, not quantity.



But, at the same time, I can see how a pet like Timi, who, other than being a little too small, is very show quality, would be very hard to find from a small scale breeder. With toys only having 1-3 puppies in a litter, the odds of somebody who has only 2-3 breeding dogs having a pet available of her quality (not to mention the size, color, sex, health and personality that I wanted) are extraordinarily low. I waited over two years for Timi to arrive, so how long would I have waited for somebody to produce a pet like her in their house?

Besides which, the truth is that every small, home based breeder that you are going to find - guess where their "great lines" came from - the big show kennels. That is an absolute truth, 100 percent of the time. So while I do think that it is a bad idea that being the best equates with breeding the most, especially with small breeds, I do think that in order to preserve the integrity if the breed, improve and refine it, there is a place and a need for kennel level breeders. I wish it wasn't so, but I do believe that the toy variety of the breed would quickly disintegrate without them.

Why just look at D (Destin Toy Poodles) who was bragging on this thread that she almost never has pets to sell, she has the "best lines" in her dogs, and "breeds for show", well the pedigrees on her website are 100 percent the big kennels, including Dalin, so where would she be without them, and where would I get my incredible pets from if all Toy Poodle breeders were like her? 
Am I missing something? You all know that I waited two years for Lynn to get the perfect combination that is my Timi. How many years would I have to have waited to get one like her from the other kind of breeder?


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## Dolly's Mom

TP- while I agree that with small breeds who produce small litters would be difficult to produce pets in show stock. But I'm sorry my only response is suck it up. So what you'd have to wait longer for the exact dog you wanted (which seems unreasonable to me, good breeders breed for health and temperament first which is what you should be looking at first). No one and I unwaveringly believe No One should have 40 dogs. That's a puppy mill because in order to employ that many people and proper care for that many dogs you would go broke. There's no reason to be breeding in large quantities. There's no excuse or rationalization you can offer that's going to convince me otherwise.


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## CharismaticMillie

Wonderful companions do come from small scale breeders.


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## Dolly's Mom

I have also looked at D's page and was very unimpressed. Her descriptions of her dogs gave me no confidence in her ability to handle dogs and her lines were messy and inbred quite close.


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## spotsonofbun

I would rather get another breed than to support a bad poodle breeder.

I know that it will be difficult to find a good toy poodle especially if I move to Iceland, not many options. But instead I dont have any colour or gender preference.


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## dcail

I thought we were to discuss "Dalin Kennell " subject "ONLY" !!!!!


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## Tiny Poodles

spotsonofbun said:


> I would rather get another breed than to support a bad poodle breeder.
> 
> I know that it will be difficult to find a good toy poodle especially if I move to Iceland, not many options. But instead I dont have any colour or gender preference.



I would think that the same issue would apply to any of the small toy breeds (assuming that when you said "bad", you meant all kennel level breeders). 
Now a Standard Poodle, that would be a different story - somebody with three Standard Poodles could produce 50 puppies a year -a hundred if they are of the "breed every cycle and then retire young" school of thought. Plenty of puppies from which to pick a show dog, and a truckload of quality pets left to sell too.


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## Tiny Poodles

dcail said:


> I thought we were to discuss "Dalin Kennell " subject "ONLY" !!!!!



What's your kennel name? We can discuss you too if you would like. Since you are good friends with and recommend D, you must be the same type of breeder?


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## Tiny Poodles

CharismaticMillie said:


> Wonderful companions do come from small scale breeders.



But again I ask you, in the small toy breeds, where do those small scale breeders get their stock from that produces those wonderful companions - 95% of the time from the large scale breeders. And would those small scale breeders, producing maybe five puppies a year, and wanting to keep most of those puppies for show, really have enough of the well bred companions available for those of us who want them?
Surely you are not suggesting that those seeking Toy Poodles go to a small scale breeder who is breeding only to produce pets?


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## spotsonofbun

Tiny Poodles said:


> But again I ask you, in the small toy breeds, where do those small scale breeders get their stock from that produces those wonderful companions - 95% of the time from the large scale breeders. And would those small scale breeders, producing maybe five puppies a year, and wanting to keep most of those puppies for show, really have enough of the well bred companions available for those of us who want them?
> Surely you are not suggesting that those seeking Toy Poodles go to a small scale breeder who is breeding only to produce pets?


Honestly I´ve not noticed such a deficit. My mother had no problem finding a yorkshire terrier from health tested and showed parents who was home reared.

You shouldnt breed with a ´market´in mind.


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## Carley's Mom

If I could not find a dog to my liking without going through a cruel breeder, then I would not have a dog !!!!! My ego is not that big, I can love a mutt, another breed, this is just beyond words.


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## Tiny Poodles

Tiny Poodles said:


> But again I ask you, in the small toy breeds, where do those small scale breeders get their stock from that produces those wonderful companions - 95% of the time from the large scale breeders. And would those small scale breeders, producing maybe five puppies a year, and wanting to keep most of those puppies for show, really have enough of the well bred companions available for those of us who want them?
> Surely you are not suggesting that those seeking Toy Poodles go to a small scale breeder who is breeding only to produce pets?



My first poodle was from such a breeder - she owned one toy poodle, and her first breeding produced one puppy, my Jolé. It was only after I lost Jolé did I do the research and discover that although from such a breeder, Jolé was actually of all Sasafrass breeding, the top Toy Poodle Kennel of the time (predecessor to Braggabout, the lines that D brags about having in her dogs). But Jolé spoiled me - I wanted another poodle just as incredible as her, but I did not get that in the two subsequent "home based, with good lines" breeders that went to. To get that level of companion puppy, I found that I had to go to the source - one of the ones that those small, home based breeders go to to get their great lines.
I am not arguing right or wrong, or telling anybody where they should get their puppies from. I am just making the point that without kennel level breeders, in TOY poodles, that variety of the breed that we so adore would be quickly extinguished. I wish that somebody could show me how that wouldn't happen, but from how I understand it, I don't see it.


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## Tiny Poodles

Carley's Mom said:


> If I could not find a dog to my liking without going through a cruel breeder, then I would not have a dog !!!!! My ego is not that big, I can love a mutt, another breed, this is just beyond words.



If you postulate that all kennel breeders are cruel, then I postulate that without kennel breeders, healthy, well bred small toy breeds would not exist, because if a small toy dog breeder is not them-self a kennel, the lines of the dogs that they are breeding are from such a kennel. 
So following your line of thinking, you are decreeing that only those who can adequately provide for medium - large sized dogs should have one. Ethically perhaps that is the correct stance, but I do not believe that the selfishness of mankind will ever allow that to happen :-(


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## CharismaticMillie

Tiny Poodles said:


> But again I ask you, in the small toy breeds, where do those small scale breeders get their stock from that produces those wonderful companions - 95% of the time from the large scale breeders. And would those small scale breeders, producing maybe five puppies a year, and wanting to keep most of those puppies for show, really have enough of the well bred companions available for those of us who want them?
> Surely you are not suggesting that those seeking Toy Poodles go to a small scale breeder who is breeding only to produce pets?


If a toy breeder breeds a couple litters a year and maybe produces 5 puppies and keeps 1 or 2, I don't see how that's any different from a small scale breeder of a larger breed who breeds a litter every 1-3 years and keeps a puppy from each breeding.

I would also like to point out that there is a huge difference between a breeder with a well maintained, smaller scale kennel vs a show mill.


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## Tiny Poodles

CharismaticMillie said:


> If a toy breeder breeds a couple litters a year and maybe produces 5 puppies and keeps 1 or 2, I don't see how that's any different from a small scale breeder of a larger breed who breeds a litter every 1-3 years and keeps a puppy from each breeding.
> 
> I would also like to point out that there is a huge difference between a breeder with a well maintained, smaller scale kennel vs a show mill.



How would you define a "smaller scale kennel"?
I think that there are many Spoo breeders that produce 3-4 litters a year, 40 - 50 puppies. A toy breeder would have to breed 25 litters to produce that many puppies from whom to choose a show dog, and have the rest available as quality pets.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Most of us know what makes a reputable breeder. In my mind it's one who breeds one or two litters a year. They don't have so many dogs they can't give them a nice, clean environment, one that is nurturing and loving. Puppies are raised in the home. They love and care for their dogs, give them good food, clean water and take care of their coats and all their health needs. They health test the dogs they breed. They often breed their fine bitch to a dog from somewhere else or get A.I. I don't think a knowledgeable and reputable breeder chooses mates from a puppy mill. They don't make much if any profit from selling their dogs. They're not in it for the money.

AKC, Poodle magazines and the prestige of having multiple champions is *not* the cause of animal abuse. Lots of breeders have lots of champions, usually over decades...either in their care or owned by someone else... and they don't all abuse their dogs! It is not AKC's or Poodle magazines fault that Dalin Poodles had a puppy mill. Making excuses is never going to diminish or soften the fact that this woman caused heart wrenching sadness and serious harm to these dogs.


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## Poodlerunner

My 2 cents is this: I've been inside a few different kennels (7). The best one that was a woman in LI who bred toy dogs. She had money and a lot of help and A LOT of dogs. She had ex-pens outside for the dogs to get fresh air and ex pens inside. Actually, these dogs were kept in what are called 3x3's with wire floors or "hygienic floors." The dogs were immaculate and physically well cared for. This was one of the first breeder's kennels that I visited. The dogs did not get to run around and live in a house or any of the stuff that we provide for our pets. They were not pets and that's just the way it is. 

The other kennels that I was in were in different states of depressing. Some outright disgusting, IMO. The most recent breeder's kennel I was in, insisted that these dogs were happy happy happy. They loooove to be dirty and hate to be clean. And they liked to be kept in crates sometimes for days at a time, only to be let out to potty. I mean seriously. The dogs in the little crates were let out to potty but the dogs "in the back" sometimes did not get out if the weather was bad and they relieved themselves in their pens. At least they had room to poop over there and sleep on the other side but it smelled soooo bad. When I suggested that the dogs be adopted out, she would NOT let them go unless she were paid 500.00 for them. UGH!!! 

My opinion is to move those parents out while they are young and let them spend the rest of their lives as pampered pets. After they get their championship, let them give you two litters (freeze the semen on the males) and then adopt them out to loving homes.

I personally want a beautiful show quality Poodle and I think a breeder needs to BREED but the dogs need to be number 1. 

pr


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## CharismaticMillie

Tiny Poodles said:


> How would you define a "smaller scale kennel"?
> I think that there are many Spoo breeders that produce 3-4 litters a year, 40 - 50 puppies. A toy breeder would have to breed 25 litters to produce that many puppies from whom to choose a show dog, and have the rest available as quality pets.


I'm not at all following your logic. How is 3-4 litters 40-50 puppies? And why would there be a need for a toy breeder to try and produce as many puppies in a year as a larger breed breeder??!! You don't need a litter of 12 to choose a nice show dog.


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## fjm

Tiny Poodles said:


> Surely you are not suggesting that those seeking Toy Poodles go to a small scale breeder who is breeding only to produce pets?


Well, frankly, if the choice is between that and a show breeder who is maltreating the parents then yes, I think that would be my preference. It is not actually a choice between these two things, however - there are many, many breeders of toy dogs who have only as many dogs as they can care for, and care deeply about every dog they own, and every puppy they breed. They do not drop their ex-breeding dogs off at the nearest shelter to take advantage of their spay/neuter adoption policies, and they do not keep more dogs than they can care for more than adequately. Sorry TP, but something went very, very wrong somewhere along the line with Dalin as a breeding kennel. Either you accept that, and help to put it right, or you continue to be an apologist for something that the rest of us find inexcusable.


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## PoodlePaws

CharismaticMillie said:


> I'm not at all following your logic. How is 3-4 litters 40-50 puppies? And why would there be a need for a toy breeder to try and produce as many puppies in a year as a larger breed breeder??!! You don't need a litter of 12 to choose a nice show dog.



Think she made there reference because toy litters most likely have 1-2 puppies in them. Whereas a spoo breeding will most likely have at least 10 puppies


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## CharismaticMillie

PoodlePaws said:


> Think she made there reference because toy litters most likely have 1-2 puppies in them. Whereas a spoo breeding will most likely have at least 10 puppies


I understand what she made reference to. But, you don't need a litter of ten to get a nice show pick. Also, I'm not sure I would say that a standard poodle would most likely have at least 10 puppies.


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## patk

i have stayed out of most of this thread mainly because tp already knows that since i joined pf last year i have been suspicious of dalin's breeding practices. no use beating a dead horse and no use my going out of my way to hurt the feelings of someone who has a wonderful little dog. (maybe most of you have not seen the thread where a well-respected breeder member of pf was called out by the owner of a dog bred by someone else for criticizing her breeder. the dog's owner said quite clearly she felt her dog was being questioned and her own feelings were hurt.)

i am going to say that maybe we all need to be a bit cautious about the assumptions we bring about good/bad breeding and breeders. ruffly speaking, who joined this forum at one point and breeds, i believe, corgis, made the statement on her blog that to know what s/he is doing, a breeder has to breed a lot. she followed that up here with a statement that met deafening and, i believe, shocked silence: she believes top of the line breeders don't pay much attention to all the health testing, etc., that we are concerned about. on top of that, a pf member reported that she has a clarion dog that she loves, but he was shipped to her in deplorable condition. i saw a teacup breeder site on the internet advertising championship dogs of dalin and valcopy as part of the breeder's "line." and as tp has pointed out, dalin dogs are part of the breed heritage of one of the more vocal dalin critics here. looking more closely at the pedigrees of dogs from one of the breeders i was interested in, i came to realize that at least some "top" breeders are still involved in line breeding and some are still breeding dogs that test out as carriers of pra.

conditions in which dogs are kept are a truly serious problem. but so are some of the other practices out there. as to limiting the number of dogs as part of good breeding practices, there is a huge thread at pf with a lot of anguished reactions to what were then proposed new regulations regarding breeders, including limitations on the number of dogs that can be part of a breeding program without federal licensing. everyone who opposed the new regs sincerely believed they were doing the best by their dogs and did not need regulation - but had no answer to how to deal with those who obviously do need to be regulated. so do the dogs come first with good breeders? it wasn't clear to me that they did. 

and, yes, i do know what i'm saying is bound to be ill-received. but i'm saying it anyway because in the end, i am not a breeder, but someone who hopes to be loved by a poodle one day. i would hope that dog has a good chance of a long and healthy life as a result of good breeding practices.


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## Poodlebeguiled

CharismaticMillie said:


> I understand what she made reference to. But, you don't need a litter of ten to get a nice show pick. Also, I'm not sure I would say that a standard poodle would most likely have at least 10 puppies.


Matisse came from a litter of four and he's an _"almost"_ grand champion! LOL.:act-up:


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## PoodlePaws

CharismaticMillie said:


> I understand what she made reference to. But, you don't need a litter of ten to get a nice show pick. Also, I'm not sure I would say that a standard poodle would most likely have at least 10 puppies.



I was giving a number toward the middle number of dogs. 8-12 puppies. So I chose 10. Sorry if I was confusing.


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## CharismaticMillie

PoodlePaws said:


> I was giving a number toward the middle number of dogs. 8-12 puppies. So I chose 10. Sorry if I was confusing.


Not confusing..but doesn't make any difference in regard to what I said.


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## MollyMuiMa

What I find so bad is that many breeders don't seem to know where their poodles with 'impeccable lineage' end up at!!! When my curiosity about 'doodles' had me cruising the internet I found doodle breeders bragging about the 'Championship lines' their dogs have and to name a few they mentioned ....Sharbelle, Tiara, Cabryn, Magical, Fairview, Dassin, AND OF COURSE ...Dalin!!!! It makes me wonder how they ended up with a doodler!!! I bet some of these 'well known' breeders don't even know their 'Lines' are producing doodles!!!! Kinda defeats breeders wishes to keep their lines clean!
And I might mention, one doodle breeder's poodles were all AKC registered which makes me wonder how they were able to get full breeding rights without telling they were breeders of doodles!!!


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## N2Mischief

That's true Molly....I bought Misha with limited registration and I agreed to have her spayed...but...it was never checked on. I could be out breeding her with Maltese and no one would be the wiser. 

I just wonder how possible it is to keep track of it. I guess a large deposit returned upon proof of spay? 

People are so dishonest though, I'm sure papers would be falsified. Very sad.

BTW, Misha is spayed


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Most of us know what makes a reputable breeder. In my mind it's one who breeds one or two litters a year. They don't have so many dogs they can't give them a nice, clean environment, one that is nurturing and loving. Puppies are raised in the home. They love and care for their dogs, give them good food, clean water and take care of their coats and all their health needs. They health test the dogs they breed. They often breed their fine bitch to a dog from somewhere else or get A.I. I don't think a knowledgeable and reputable breeder chooses mates from a puppy mill. They don't make much if any profit from selling their dogs. They're not in it for the money.
> 
> 
> 
> AKC, Poodle magazines and the prestige of having multiple champions is *not* the cause of animal abuse. Lots of breeders have lots of champions, usually over decades...either in their care or owned by someone else... and they don't all abuse their dogs! It is not AKC's or Poodle magazines fault that Dalin Poodles had a puppy mill. Making excuses is never going to diminish or soften the fact that this woman caused heart wrenching sadness and serious harm to these dogs.



Who is making excuses, I am discussing the factors that go into breeding Show Toy Poodles. 
So I guess that you don't consider Valcopy, the breeder that you got your boys from reputable either? I remember you saying that he had 4-5 litters of about the same age that he couldn't wait to get out of the door the day that they turned 8 weeks old.


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## Tiny Poodles

fjm said:


> Well, frankly, if the choice is between that and a show breeder who is maltreating the parents then yes, I think that would be my preference. It is not actually a choice between these two things, however - there are many, many breeders of toy dogs who have only as many dogs as they can care for, and care deeply about every dog they own, and every puppy they breed. They do not drop their ex-breeding dogs off at the nearest shelter to take advantage of their spay/neuter adoption policies, and they do not keep more dogs than they can care for more than adequately. Sorry TP, but something went very, very wrong somewhere along the line with Dalin as a breeding kennel. Either you accept that, and help to put it right, or you continue to be an apologist for something that the rest of us find inexcusable.



How did I know precisely who was going to thank your post before I even looked?
I get that you don't understand me or my feelings about this issue, and I am not going to attempt to enlighten you. I am grateful for the people here who do understand.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

Tiny Poodles said:


> Who is making excuses, I am discussing the factors that go into breeding Show Toy Poodles.
> So I guess that you don't consider Valcopy, the breeder that you got your boys from reputable either? I remember you saying that he had 4-5 litters of about the same age that he couldn't wait to get out of the door the day that they turned 8 weeks old.


No, he had Maurice's litter of two and Matisse's litter of four. Valcopy is very reputable and I've been to his house many times and have seen how his dogs are kept. I also talked to many people in our Poodle Club who know and have been associated with him for eons. He's a judge, president of the Poodle Club and very in love with his dogs. He kisses "his" boy every time we show up to handling class.

eta: if I had 6 puppies, I'd be eager to cut the apron strings too.


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## Carley's Mom

I could not agree more tp, listen to someone talk long enough and you will know exactly what type of person they are. Made me smile that you would know that I would give a big THANKS to fjm.


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## Tiny Poodles

Poodlebeguiled said:


> No, he had Maurice's litter of two and Matisse's litter of four. Valcopy is very reputable and I've been to his house many times and have seen how his dogs are kept. I also talked to many people in our Poodle Club who know and have been associated with him for eons. He's a judge, president of the Poodle Club and very in love with his dogs. He kisses "his" boy every time we show up to handling class.
> 
> 
> 
> eta: if I had 6 puppies, I'd be eager to cut the apron strings too.



How many adult dogs does he own?
Lynn never allows a puppy to leave before 12 weeks because they typically continue nursing until 11 weeks. Timi nursed until she was 13 weeks.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Tiny Poodles said:


> How many adult dogs does he own?
> Lynn never allows a puppy to leave before 12 weeks because they typically continue nursing until 11 weeks. Timi nursed until she was 13 weeks.



Suffice it to say that my puppies did not have any sign of failure to thrive, were weaned at around 5 weeks of age and were absolutely healthy and robust. They were perfectly ready and able to be in my good hands. He lives 20 minutes from me.

The number of dogs he has I do not know. He has some wash and wear toy Fox Terriers too and is getting out of Poodles and is showing his terriers now a little. He also has a couple people who live with him and help. He has a lovely place for them...clean yard, ex pens for puppies, not little cages stacked upon each other, fresh water, good food, healthy surroundings...puppies are raised in the house. All dogs look clean, bright eyed and healthy. I met a couple of Poodle adults who met me at the door. His dogs have fabulous temperaments, he has bred dogs for eons and is well thought of by the Poodle community and other fine breeders, of whom I've come to know through the Poodle Club.

You didn't know apparently, that Dalin had such a mess. You got a puppy from her in good faith. You now know the truth. It happened. It's for real. Either you are having a hard time accepting it and are still in denial or there's something more sinister. I don't understand it. I don't understand your comments. And I don't really want to talk about anymore. It's just too disturbing.

I'm not going to let this further degenerate into a competition of who the better breeder is...Dalin or Valcopy. That's absurd. I've said all there is for me to say.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Oh, so you didn't get to look around that closely.


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## Poodlebeguiled

Oh I think he had a couple that weren't there at the time. They were somewhere else, I think for breeding.

Anyhow, I see what you're trying to do...deflect from the topic at hand...some kind of tactic to shift the attention away from the breeder you have so much respect for, to manipulate the topic away from the horrific state of affairs with Dalin Poodles, Lynn De Rosa...the horrendous puppy mill that this turned out to be. 

So very sad....

My main interest is what will become of these puppies...the ones now and what about the future? How can people who care put a stop to this tragic abuse of animals? I wish there were an easy answer.


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## Carolinek

I'm not convinced the toy poodle breed would cease to exist if breeders kept their numbers manageable. 

Ok- this is not poodles, but just heard there is a show breeder of havanese (Destiny Havanese) in West Virginia that just had 80 dogs seized from deplorable conditions. Seems like the law is cracking down on these show mills in that area of the country. That's encouraging and a step forward for animal rights. Here's the link if you're interested

86 Dogs, 4 Dead Seized from Hancock County Kennel in Need of Vet - WTRF 7 News Sports Weather - Wheeling Steubenville


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## SusanG

The bottom line is that the states need stricter animal abuse laws and should be responsible for the oversight and regular inspection of the premises of any breeder or dog owner who owns however many they determine is a kennel (maybe more than 20 adult dogs - just a suggestion) Animal abuse is not isolated to just show breeders, but to hoarders and back yard, under the table breeders for profit. And it is up to the public to bring to the attention any concerns in their neighborhood. The laws have to be reasonable as do the inspectors. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference between a pen that hadn't been cleaned that day from a pen and sleeping area with 2 weeks of filth, or wet or inadequate shelter or an animal who is skinny, fearful, matted and sick. If an owner can't keep every dog well nourished, clean, dry and exercised he or she has too many dogs, which sounds like the case with Dalin. That being said, I can't stand the thought that any breeder didn't also provide love and attention for each and every pet, not just the favorites or show dogs. But that is just me.


----------



## Poodlebeguiled

SusanG said:


> The bottom line is that the states need stricter animal abuse laws and should be responsible for the oversight and regular inspection of the premises of any breeder or dog owner who owns however many they determine is a kennel (maybe more than 20 adult dogs - just a suggestion) Animal abuse is not isolated to just show breeders, but to hoarders and back yard, under the table breeders for profit. And it is up to the public to bring to the attention any concerns in their neighborhood. The laws have to be reasonable as do the inspectors. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference between a pen that hadn't been cleaned that day from a pen and sleeping area with 2 weeks of filth, or wet or inadequate shelter or an animal who is skinny, fearful, matted and sick. If an owner can't keep every dog well nourished, clean, dry and exercised he or she has too many dogs, which sounds like the case with Dalin. That being said, I can't stand the thought that any breeder didn't also provide love and attention for each and every pet, not just the favorites or show dogs. But that is just me.


It's not just you. That's a wonderful post. :adore::adore::adore::adore:

I think this whole thread needs to be *stickied* so people in the future can see it and be made more aware of what they need to watch for. Maybe it would be one more addition toward the fight against animal abuse.


----------



## alwayson

Chagall's mom said:


> Came across this info online in the _AKC Gazette_ (October 2014) by happenstance.
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/secretary_page/October_2014.pdf(page1)
> AKC G A Z E T T E •1• OCTOBER 2 0 1 4
> NOTICE
> The AKC's Management Disciplinary
> Committee has suspended Ms. Lynn
> DeRosa-Liddington _[Dalin Kennels, Warsaw, VA] _
> from all AKC privileges
> For ten years and imposed a $ 2000
> Fine, effective April 21, 2014, for conduct
> Prejudicial to purebred dogs, purebred dog
> Events, or to the best interests of The
> American Kennel Club based on her violation
> Of the AKC's Judicial or
> Administrative Determination of
> Inappropriate Treatment Policy. (Poodle)
> 
> https://images.akc.org/pdf/board_minutes/0914.pdf _(Page 5, September 8-9, 2014)_
> APPEALS COMMITTEE
> Mr. Arnold gave the report of the Appeals Committee. Ms. Lynn DeRosa Liddington was suspended for ten years and fined $2,000 as a result of her conviction on one count of animal cruelty. She appealed, and the AKC Board Appeals Committee heard the appeal and voted that it be denied.


Hopeful we will be able to help stop this kind a of things going on. Just wanted to take the time to WISH EVEY ONE ON THIS FOURM A VERY HAPPY THANKSGIVING AND


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## alwayson

Dolly's Mom said:


> Sorry did anyone read the picture posted where it said she had 90 DOGS ON HER PROPERTY?!?!? I think I'm going to be sick. There's a similar situation going on in Ontario with a breeder whose facility I went to see. The dogs were all kennelled and she easily had 20 dogs plus 30 puppies between 2 weeks and 6 weeks. That's ridiculous to me but you meet people who've bought puppies from her and they rave about her. I mention that it's a glorified puppy mill and they all say oh well....


Good evening , It has been brought to my attention that I had Dalin in my pedigree , the answer to that is yes I did not that I went out to use this dog , he was AM JAP CH Dalin Cordaroy TP and was born in 1990 he is in some of my pedigrees about 8 generation back , so to answer that question it was there way before I started breeding, He is in a ton of pedigrees .Dalin used her dogs on any one that had money to use him. And this same person was asking about Bragabout poodles ,I do have some of that in my pedigrees also I co owned two of 
Bragabout , one was CH. Bragabout Destin's Mandolin and Ch. Bragabout Blue Grass Band that I finished both . Cheryl was one of the most kind people that walk the earth, She knew more about poodles then most would forget . She was a very very honesty breeder and very ethical one too. I never used Banjo and Mandy wasn't cut out to be a mom . so Cheryl ask could we place Mandy is with a lovely older lady, Cheryl always wanted the best for her dogs and the stories she could tell would you laugh so hard tears would come to your eyes, I miss her friendship and her beautiful poodles. Please if any one has any questions feel free to ask . If any would like to see my pedigrees please send me a message and I will be more then glad to share . I am very very proud of my line. :amen:


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## alwayson

Poodlebeguiled said:


> Suffice it to say that my puppies did not have any sign of failure to thrive, were weaned at around 5 weeks of age and were absolutely healthy and robust. They were perfectly ready and able to be in my good hands. He lives 20 minutes from me.
> 
> The number of dogs he has I do not know. He has some wash and wear toy Fox Terriers too and is getting out of Poodles and is showing his terriers now a little. He also has a couple people who live with him and help. He has a lovely place for them...clean yard, ex pens for puppies, not little cages stacked upon each other, fresh water, good food, healthy surroundings...puppies are raised in the house. All dogs look clean, bright eyed and healthy. I met a couple of Poodle adults who met me at the door. His dogs have fabulous temperaments, he has bred dogs for eons and is well thought of by the Poodle community and other fine breeders, of whom I've come to know through the Poodle Club.
> 
> You didn't know apparently, that Dalin had such a mess. You got a puppy from her in good faith. You now know the truth. It happened. It's for real. Either you are having a hard time accepting it and are still in denial or there's something more sinister. I don't understand it. I don't understand your comments. And I don't really want to talk about anymore. It's just too disturbing.
> 
> I'm not going to let this further degenerate into a competition of who the better breeder is...Dalin or Valcopy. That's absurd. I've said all there is for me to say.[/QUOTE
> 
> Poodlebeguiled, of course you are right He is a very respected breeder and judge . He judged the PCA 2014 and every one loved him and the job he did , He didn't care what the color the poodle was only if it was correct and to the standard , I would show under him any time of the day. Some people you just have to ignore, and it will all come out what the motive is for their way of thinking.Some are just not worth a persons time .Hope you have a Wonderful Thanksgiving
> :angel:


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## SusanG

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Lets kiss our dogs (no matter where they came from) and give thanks we have them and that they are the lucky ones who are loved and cared for. After reading this thread, we all should at least be more aware that a breeder with "CH" poodles doesn't necessarily make that person good or ethical, because they are successful in creating a gene pool that wins at shows. Its up to us to do the research to find out the whole picture. And that is really difficult because you can't always visit them if buying a good dog from across the country. That's why demanding health testing, pedigree and talking to others who know the breeder is so important. On this site, we are all in the unique position of recommending breeders to new members. When we make a recommendation - we should be sure that breeders is responsible, honest and humane to the best of our knowledge.


----------



## alwayson

SusanG said:


> Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Lets kiss our dogs (no matter where they came from) and give thanks we have them and that they are the lucky ones who are loved and cared for. After reading this thread, we all should at least be more aware that a breeder with "CH" poodles doesn't necessarily make that person good or ethical, because they are successful in creating a gene pool that wins at shows. Its up to us to do the research to find out the whole picture. And that is really difficult because you can't always visit them if buying a good dog from across the country. That's why demanding health testing, pedigree and talking to others who know the breeder is so important. On this site, we are all in the unique position of recommending breeders to new members. When we make a recommendation - we should be sure that breeders is responsible, honest and humane to the best of our knowledge.


 A big Bravo and Amen to that


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## N2Mischief

:deadhorse:


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## alwayson

N2Mischief said:


> :deadhorse:




very pretty poodle , nice head


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## Carolinek

Well said Susan!


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## Tiny Poodles

SusanG said:


> Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Lets kiss our dogs (no matter where they came from) and give thanks we have them and that they are the lucky ones who are loved and cared for. After reading this thread, we all should at least be more aware that a breeder with "CH" poodles doesn't necessarily make that person good or ethical, because they are successful in creating a gene pool that wins at shows. Its up to us to do the research to find out the whole picture. And that is really difficult because you can't always visit them if buying a good dog from across the country. That's why demanding health testing, pedigree and talking to others who know the breeder is so important. On this site, we are all in the unique position of recommending breeders to new members. When we make a recommendation - we should be sure that breeders is responsible, honest and humane to the best of our knowledge.



Well said, and may I add, "don't believe everything that you read on the internet, no matter how seemingly reliable the source"
I still trust my own personal experiences with Lynn (albeit long distance), coupled with the opinions of dozens of people that I know who have actually visited her over anything that I read on the internet.
For those of you who only believe what you can google, you will have to be patient, there is more information to come, but the legal wheels do grind slowly, so you must have patience.
For those of you with open minds and hearts, I will tell you that there is a very sweet, caring woman who is more hurt, horrified, and outraged by what was done to her dogs than any bystander could possibly imagine.
As for me, as the fortunate three time owner of Dalin Poodles, and having heard all sides of this issue, I sincerely hope that when I am ready for a new puppy, it will come from Lynn, because I know of no others that compare in health, temperament, or conformation, and I am certain in my heart that she is not the monster that the internet is currently working overtime to paint her as. The internet will get it's proof later on, but my heart already has more than it needs.
Wishing all of my Poodle Forum friends a Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## alwayson

Tiny Poodles said:


> Well said, and may I add, "don't believe everything that you read on the internet, no matter how seemingly reliable the source"
> I still trust my own personal experiences with Lynn (albeit long distance), coupled with the opinions of dozens of people that I know who have actually visited her over anything that I read on the internet.
> For those of you who only believe what you can google, you will have to be patient, there is more information to come, but the legal wheels do grind slowly, so you must have patience.
> For those of you with open minds and hearts, I will tell you that there is a very sweet, caring woman who is more hurt, horrified, and outraged by what was done to her dogs than any bystander could possibly imagine.
> As for me, as the fortunate three time owner of Dalin Poodles, and having heard all sides of this issue, I sincerely hope that when I am ready for a new puppy, it will come from Lynn, because I know of no others that compare in health, temperament, or conformation, and I am certain in my heart that she is not the monster that the internet is currently working overtime to paint her as. The internet will get it's proof later on, but my heart already has more than it needs.
> Wishing all of my Poodle Forum friends a Happy Thanksgiving!



Yes what you said about the internet can be very true. BUT when you seen in Poodles Of America and  have talked first hand to the people that were there in person and seen with their own eyes the conduction that these poor poodles had lived in for years you have to use your brain too and not just what you want to believe, AKC doesn't just suspend to have something to do, They take it very serious and this was her 3rd offence for the same thing . , Not saying the dogs you got from the Dalin that you shouldn't love them . Just like Sue said love them no matter , You are there to love and protected them .:angel:


----------



## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> Yes what you said about the internet can be very true. BUT when you seen in Poodles Of America and have talked first hand to the people that were there in person and seen with their own eyes the conduction that these poor poodles had lived in for years you have to use your brain too and not just what you want to believe, AKC doesn't just suspend to have something to do, They take it very serious and this was her 3rd offence for the same thing . , Not saying the dogs you got from the Dalin that you shouldn't love them . Just like Sue said love them no matter , You are there to love and protected them .:angel:



Yes, I, with an open mind, have spoken to dozens of people, puppy buyers just like myself, not members of the poodle show community who may have an ax to grind, and that is why I feel the way that I do.

Yes, there was one puppy buyer who went there, bought two, brought them home with nothing but good things to say (she was in our group, raving about them, and brashly encouraging every person in the group, including me to snap up the available puppies), she then went back about two months later to buy a third, went home with the puppy, again with only good things to say, but a few days later was mortified to find that number three puppy had worms, and THEN began saying all kinds of negative things, but I think that most would understand why I don't give much weight to her criticisms. Especially in light of hearing from dozens more who visited before and after, and still have wonderful things to say.


----------



## alwayson

Tiny Poodles said:


> Yes, I, with an open mind, have spoken to dozens of people, puppy buyers just like myself, not members of the poodle show community who may have an ax to grind, and that is why I feel the way that I do.
> 
> Yes, there was one puppy buyer who went there, bought two, brought them home with nothing but good things to say (she was in our group, raving about them, and brashly encouraging every person in the group, including me to snap up the available puppies), she then went back about two months later to buy a third, went home with the puppy, again with only good things to say, but a few days later was mortified to find that number three puppy had worms, and THEN began saying all kinds of negative things, but I think that most would understand why I don't give much weight to her criticisms. Especially in light of hearing from dozens more who visited before and after, and still have wonderful things to say.


 You can think what your want about Dalin but so can others that have seen what was published , I think were the criticisms comes from is the pictures and the AKC actions . I am sure that these people bought puppy's were bought after the state came in and told her to clean up her kennel or they would and she would be charged for it . All this was done after they removed the dogs . She still breeds and sells puppies with out AKC papers ,You must have forgotten this all happen in 2012 that is two years it has been in court . Dalin has had two years to clean up . I don't think a serious breeder would do any business with her again . They want to show their dogs and with out AKC they don't want the Dalin dogs in there pedigree , Now pet people that want to produce just pets with out AKC or any testing have a source to buy puppies with out spayed /neutered contract can go to Dalin and buy there . Lest face it what she did in the years before 2012 is horrible to even have to think about what she did to those poor dogs is a crime . You can think of her what you want that is your choice but Please stop trying to make others thinks she is a saint , the Printed facts and pictures speak volumes what kind of a person she is . Now lets move on :angel:


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> Yes, I, with an open mind, have spoken to dozens of people, puppy buyers just like myself, not members of the poodle show community who may have an ax to grind, and that is why I feel the way that I do.


I definitely have an open mind here. I've seen how nasty show people can be. The one breeder that comes on here is like a one woman lynch mob calling for blood. I don't play that!

I have to say though, the AKC suspension is going to be hard to explain, TP. 

pr


----------



## Dolly's Mom

Poodlerunner said:


> I definitely have an open mind here. I've seen how nasty show people can be. The one breeder that comes on here is like a one woman lynch mob calling for blood. I don't play that!
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say though, the AKC suspension is going to be hard to explain, TP.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Right?!?!? I agree a million percent and even if it is all a big mistake she had too many dogs on her property. Even having 50 dogs is WAYY too many.


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlerunner said:


> I definitely have an open mind here. I've seen how nasty show people can be. The one breeder that comes on here is like a one woman lynch mob calling for blood. I don't play that!
> 
> 
> 
> I have to say though, the AKC suspension is going to be hard to explain, TP.
> 
> 
> 
> pr



Like I said, the legal wheels turn slowly, and there is a lot more to come. Right now two of the workers from the shelter where her dogs were held for 8 1/2 WEEKS (before a rescue ever laid eyes upon them) are on trial, and hopefully more charges will come after that. 
Meanwhile, look for Grand Champion Dalin Dreamy at Westminster in February, as one of the top five dogs in the country, he has been invited to show. There are still many in the show and pet community who know and respect Dalin as one of the best in the world.


----------



## Poodlerunner

Tiny Poodles said:


> \There are still many in the show and pet community who know and respect Dalin as one of the best in the world.


TP, Respectfully, I don't think that is what is being debated here.

pr


----------



## alwayson

Poodlerunner said:


> TP, Respectfully, I don't think that is what is being debated here.
> 
> pr


Best of luck to the 
OWNER: Cathy Cushman of Dalin Dreamer . He was born in 2010 and was bought by Cathy in 2010 , Her handler as done a wonderful job with him . By toy standards he is a very mature dog being 4 years old and still in the show ring . Best of luck to Cathy and her Team , look forward to see you at Westminster


----------



## Tiny Poodles

Poodlerunner said:


> TP, Respectfully, I don't think that is what is being debated here.
> 
> 
> 
> pr




I know, the primary issue is the condition that her dogs were in when they reached the rescues after 8 1/2 weeks of horrific treatment at the shelter. You can even confirm that timeline in the article in the PCA newsletter. 
I think that anybody with an open mind would realize that A) had her dog been in that horrific condition at the time of the seizure, they would not have allowed, and still allow her to keep dogs up to the legal limit B) if a functional Animal Shelter had received dogs matted, encrusted with feces and urine, and emaciated, they would have cleaned them up and fed them in the 8 1/2 WEEKS that they were in their care. But no, the court records show that the dogs when they were seized were in good condition, two shelter workers are currently being tried, and hopefully there are more charges to come. Nobody is more horrified about what happened to her dogs than Lynn.
Yes she is guilty of having had too many dogs, and for that she paid the price with the seizure and the AKC suspension, but people who care about animal abuse should be more concerned about the VA Animal Shelters than Lynn's kennel, for that is where her dogs were so neglected and miss-treated.


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## alwayson

*please post the threat or web site for all to see*



Tiny Poodles said:


> I know, the primary issue is the condition that her dogs were in when they reached the rescues after 8 1/2 weeks of horrific treatment at the shelter. You can even confirm that timeline in the article in the PCA newsletter.
> I think that anybody with an open mind would realize that A) had her dog been in that horrific condition at the time of the seizure, they would not have allowed, and still allow her to keep dogs up to the legal limit B) if a functional Animal Shelter had received dogs matted, encrusted with feces and urine, and emaciated, they would have cleaned them up and fed them in the 8 1/2 WEEKS that they were in their care. But no, the court records show that the dogs when they were seized were in good condition, two shelter workers are currently being tried, and hopefully there are more charges to come. Nobody is more horrified about what happened to her dogs than Lynn.
> Yes she is guilty of having had too many dogs, and for that she paid the price with the seizure and the AKC suspension, but people who care about animal abuse should be more concerned about the VA Animal Shelters than Lynn's kennel, for that is where her dogs were so neglected and miss-treated.


 Could you please post the paper work you are reading . I haven't seen any proof of what your saying , Please post or produce the thread that your getting your information and I will gladly post it on here for all to read . I would also love to see the names and the paper work on the workers all so .
thank you


----------



## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> Could you please post the paper work you are reading . I haven't seen any proof of what your saying , Please post or produce the thread that your getting your information and I will gladly post it on here for all to read . I would also love to see the names and the paper work on the workers all so .
> 
> thank you



How many times do I have to tell you that the legal wheels turn slowly, and those of you who only trust what you can google will have to wait for the end of this story to be published. I only hope that when it is that you will also post it all over Facebook, and private message it to the hundreds of people that you so gleefully posted and sent the currently published items to!


----------



## alwayson

*That is what I thought you would say*



Tiny Poodles said:


> How many times do I have to tell you that the legal wheels turn slowly, and those of you who only trust what you can google will have to wait for the end of this story to be published. I only hope that when it is that you will also post it all over Facebook, and private message it to the hundreds of people that you so gleefully posted and sent the currently published items to!


 And yes I will post it on Facebook and here if I could find it in print. You said you had paper work about the workers. I would love to see that and I will repost it if it is true .. I have Goggled what you said and I find not one word of what your saying . The only things that keep coming up is about the one post of Dalin kennels being shut down and AKC suspending her for 10 years . I have gone in to PCA Poodles Of America to search there records and not a thing . And gone in to AKC minutes and found zero. Tired the Dog Press and again not a word or a any court case or any workers being ask to reappear or that the case was being reopened . As far as I have searched there is no Case being reopened against any recuses workers or Dalin getting her kennel lic back 
Any one can go to the state where the legal action took place and see what is happening that case of Dalin is a closed case. All this is public records , on any case in that state were the legal action was brought against a plaintiff.


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## Tiny Poodles

Again I have to ask you, how many times do I have to tell you that you have to be patient for this to conclude and reach your Precious google? Just wondering, is there a specific number?
As many here have mentioned, YOUR motivations in this are quite transparent, but for those who actually care about animal welfare, rest assured that there is more news to come about the people who did that to those poor dogs.


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## alwayson

*Show me any thread or post saying differant about Dalin Dogs*



Tiny Poodles said:


> Again I have to ask you, how many times do I have to tell you that you have to be patient for this to conclude and reach your Precious google? Just wondering, is there a specific number?
> As many here have mentioned, YOUR motivations in this are quite transparent, but for those who actually care about animal welfare, rest assured that there is more news to come about the people who did that to those poor dogs.


 Please do tell me who is asking about my motivation, Please do tell me what my transport motivates are ? First I don't sell puppy's like some . The poor dogs that had to live a life in those horrid conduction, You seem to condone what she was found guilty of there is pictures and the print . I want people like her stop and ones that want to keep this cycle going , I told you if you give me the thread I will be more than glad to post it. but there is none. To have a case number a person has to file first , there is none , There is not one thread of appeal in the courts that Lynn has filed That case has closed she couldn't open it back up even if she could prove it was wrong She hasn't even file to reinstate her kennel lic. Now she moves to a different state she can try to get a kennel lic . but I have heard the bad news will follow her with rescues people appearing on behalf of the dogs . for some reason you think this is going to just go away . I really don't care what you or others thinks . My goal is to make sure that people like her don't make a profit off is these poor animals , I want to be FAIR . if you can find ANYTHING about her that is in print saying she is a good breeder/person I will be more then happy to post it too,
But there is no thread you can give out and I have looked for something anything on what your saying and not one word has appeared to be true , I really think that we , as in Your and Me should not convers on this matter . Trust me ! If I find ANYTHING about Dalin kennels I will post here and on FB


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## Tiny Poodles

You are correct that further conversation between us is pointless, as the two parties must first comprehend what the other has written before responding.


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## N2Mischief

Alwayson, if you read back through this thread I find quite a few people have questioned your motivation. I don't know what "transport motivates" are so I can't comment. I also don't understand "horrid conduction" which you mentioned in another post as well. Honestly, I too am concerned about these reports, but your hysterical and almost unreadable posts take away credibility of anything you have to say.


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## alwayson

*Show me a theaded saying never abused dogs*



N2Mischief said:


> Alwayson, if you read back through this thread I find quite a few people have questioned your motivation. I don't know what "transport motivates" are so I can't comment. I also don't understand "horrid conduction" which you mentioned in another post as well. Honestly, I too am concerned about these reports, but your hysterical and almost unreadable posts take away credibility of anything you have to say.


 

So Sorry the word should have said transparent, I am sorry you couldn't figure that out . horrific, horrid , horrendous these are all words that where used to described Dalin Kennel's, Since you think I have a motive besides stopping this women from every owning any live dogs , I have never said when I knew or bought a dog from her she was a good breeder , or I have never been to her place, My puppy I bought from her was wonderful you tell me ! I don't own any of her dogs , I never tell people what a wonderful breeder she is , I never have made any money from Lynn from helping to sell her puppy's or bragging about how great or healthy the puppy's are . I just go by the facts that have been put in print or in court records, Now about my credibility really doesn't have a thing to do with anything , All you would have to due is just read the very first post that was posted on here and not by me, and just look at the pictures says it all , I just post what is out there about Dalin , the cases are closed and you don't hear me saying anything about what a wonderful breeder she is I let the article and the pictures speak . So if you want to think she is wonderful person that is your choice . I have not one word from the court system saying that she is. If you can find something in print that is positive about her , show me the thread and I will research it and post it here and on FB but as to this day the only thing out there is from the Poodles of America and the court records , your comments that try to detract from the subject at hand just tells me something, Your the one signing her praise . I just have the court records from the court system in her state and the pictures form PCA and the AKC What is your motive ???
You really don't need to answer that , its just the same thing . The point is there is not any posting or new thread stating that she has filed with the courts in her state, It's just all a big smoke screen . you have a wonderful evening


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> Alwayson, if you read back through this thread I find quite a few people have questioned your motivation. I don't know what "transport motivates" are so I can't comment. I also don't understand "horrid conduction" which you mentioned in another post as well. Honestly, I too am concerned about these reports, but your hysterical and almost unreadable posts take away credibility of anything you have to say.



Who in their right mind wouldn't be concerned about these reports, but most sane people would want the correct persons who put those poor dogs into that horrid condition prosecuted and prevented from doing it again over and above the personal vendetta that D seems to be acting on (from what I can comprehend of her "word salad" posts)
As I stated before, the only thing that Lynn was guilty of was having too many dogs, nobody, not the authorities who inspect her, nor the many pet buyers that have visited her have questioned her ability to take good care of the dogs that she has up to the legal limit. Well, actually PETA has, but they would steal your pet dog off your front porch and put it to sleep, so who cares what they think. 
There was an 8 1/2 WEEK period between the time that those dogs were confiscated, and when they were turned over to the rescues in that horrific condition, and it is the people who were in charge of their care during that time period who are currently being prosecuted and hopefully will be facing additional charges once that case has concluded. I would think that every poodle loving person on this forum, regardless of their feelings about kennel breeders in general, would want that to happen - am I wrong?


----------



## alwayson

*just show me the thread that is posted that says anything your saying*



Tiny Poodles said:


> Who in their right mind wouldn't be concerned about these reports, but most sane people would want the correct persons who put those poor dogs into that horrid condition prosecuted and prevented from doing it again over and above the personal vendetta that D seems to be acting on (from what I can comprehend of her "word salad" posts)
> As I stated before, the only thing that Lynn was guilty of was having too many dogs, nobody, not the authorities who inspect her, nor the many pet buyers that have visited her have questioned her ability to take good care of the dogs that she has up to the legal limit. Well, actually PETA has, but they would steal your pet dog off your front porch and put it to sleep, so who cares what they think.
> There was an 8 1/2 WEEK period between the time that those dogs were confiscated, and when they were turned over to the rescues in that horrific condition, and it is the people who were in charge of their care during that time period who are currently being prosecuted and hopefully will be facing additional charges once that case has concluded. I would think that every poodle loving person on this forum, regardless of their feelings about kennel breeders in general, would want that to happen - am I wrong?


 JUST SHOW ME THE THREAD IN PRINT THAT ANY ONE HAS MADE A STATMENT LIKE YOUR SAYING and I will repost it . PERIOD


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## N2Mischief

alwayson said:


> So Sorry the word should have said transparent, I am sorry you couldn't figure that out . horrific, horrid , horrendous these are all words that where used to described Dalin Kennel's, Since you think I have a motive besides stopping this women from every owning any live dogs , I have never said when I knew or bought a dog from her she was a good breeder , or I have never been to her place, My puppy I bought from her was wonderful you tell me ! I don't own any of her dogs , I never tell people what a wonderful breeder she is , I never have made any money from Lynn from helping to sell her puppy's or bragging about how great or healthy the puppy's are . I just go by the facts that have been put in print or in court records, Now about my credibility really doesn't have a thing to do with anything , All you would have to due is just read the very first post that was posted on here and not by me, and just look at the pictures says it all , I just post what is out there about Dalin , the cases are closed and you don't hear me saying anything about what a wonderful breeder she is I let the article and the pictures speak . So if you want to think she is wonderful person that is your choice . I have not one word from the court system saying that she is. If you can find something in print that is positive about her , show me the thread and I will research it and post it here and on FB but as to this day the only thing out there is from the Poodles of America and the court records , your comments that try to detract from the subject at hand just tells me something, Your the one signing her praise . I just have the court records from the court system in her state and the pictures form PCA and the AKC What is your motive ???
> You really don't need to answer that , its just the same thing . The point is there is not any posting or new thread stating that she has filed with the courts in her state, It's just all a big smoke screen . you have a wonderful evening



Do you read over your posts before you submit them? Trying to decipher this literally hurts my head. I can't figure out if you are responding to me or someone else, though you quoted my post. Very confusing, very very hard to follow.


----------



## alwayson

*Show me a theaded saying never abused dogs*



N2Mischief said:


> Do you read over your posts before you submit them? Trying to decipher this literally hurts my head. I can't figure out if you are responding to me or someone else, though you quoted my post. Very confusing, very very hard to follow.




Really doesn't matter just show in print what your claiming or Lori . Just show a thread or a post , that says anything positive about Dalin


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## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> JUST SHOW ME THE THREAD IN PRINT THAT ANY ONE HAS MADE A STATMENT LIKE YOUR SAYING and I will repost it . PERIOD



WAIT FOR IT
Is that simple enough language for you to comprehend? The current trials of the shelter workers resume in December (barring any further delays). Additional charges are expected to be brought after those trials conclude.


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## N2Mischief

LOL, OMG, did you read my post at all? Please explain what I am claiming????


----------



## Tiny Poodles

alwayson said:


> Really doesn't matter just show in print what your claiming or Lori . Just show a thread or a post , that says anything positive about Dalin



You already saw hundreds of people - people who own her puppies, many of them repeat customers who have visited her kennel many times, posting positive things about Dalin in her Facebook group, but we had to block you from seeing the group after you upset so many of them by messaging them nasty things about the breeder that they adore!


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## Tiny Poodles

N2Mischief said:


> LOL, OMG, did you read my post at all? Please explain what I am claiming????



Reading and comprehending are clearly two different things lol!


----------



## alwayson

*Just show me the thread if there is any to prove what your saying*



Tiny Poodles said:


> I am not going to reveal information that was told to me in confidence, but I will point out that there have been many times where innocent breeders have been targeted, and publicly called out as puppy millers, along with fake pictures that are not of their dogs.
> It is not a good thing to reside in PETA's home town, nor in some respects is it a good thing to have beaten just about every person in your breed in the ring at one time or another.
> Until the final chip has fallen (and trust me, there are many more that have not fallen yet), I remain extremely proud to be a parent of two incredible Dalin Poodles.


JUST SHOW ME THE THREAD IN PRINT THAT ANY ONE HAS MADE A STATMENT LIKE YOUR SAYING and I will repost it . PERIOD


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## plumcrazy

ENOUGH targeting each other. This is getting old. If this thread keeps getting reported and the members keep ignoring warnings, there will be consequences.

It's time for the adults members on this forum to start acting like adults.

Barb


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## Tiny Poodles

plumcrazy said:


> ENOUGH targeting each other. This is getting old. If this thread keeps getting reported and the members keep ignoring warnings, there will be consequences.
> 
> 
> 
> It's time for the adults members on this forum to start acting like adults.
> 
> 
> 
> Barb



Thank you, since this thread is about Dalin, may I repeat so that it is clear in the midst of all this that I have been told that there are currently two shelter workers who were entrusted with her dogs during the 8 1/2 weeks that they were held prior to being turned over to rescue that are currently on trial for what they did to her dogs, and that she hopes to have more charges brought after that trial has concluded. 
I will post further information as it is available.


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## PoodlePaws

alwayson said:


> JUST SHOW ME THE THREAD IN PRINT THAT ANY ONE HAS MADE A STATMENT LIKE YOUR SAYING and I will repost it . PERIOD



If TP posts it here, why would you have to "repost" it? We all see the same thing. And as for you "not hearing from the court" about yadda yadda yadda, why would you be hearing from the court in the first place. You mean they are keeping you up to date in the progress of this case? Why?


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## JudyD

plumcrazy said:


> ENOUGH targeting each other. This is getting old. If this thread keeps getting reported and the members keep ignoring warnings, there will be consequences.
> 
> It's time for the adults members on this forum to start acting like adults.
> 
> Barb


This is truly the thread that will not die. Perhaps the adults here will take Madam Secretary's words to heart and just walk away. (But it is like one of those legendary car wrecks...I can't help looking.)


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## Carolinek

JudyD said:


> This is truly the thread that will not die. Perhaps the adults here will take Madam Secretary's words to heart and just walk away. (But it is like one of those legendary car wrecks...I can't help looking.)


LOL- good analogy! We humans are drawn to controversy, whether we want to admit it not

It is a shame though how this thread has devolved into a platform for personal agendas. When it started, I though it was such a great opportunity to discuss ethical breeding practices. I think we all have a vested interest in that, no matter where our dogs came from.


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## SusanG

Agreed. I hope it stops now as I'm tired of it popping up and filling my inbox. Two different opinions (for whatever reason) that will never come to an agreement. (reminds me of national politics) Anyway, we all have enough information at this point to decide for ourselves, or at least enough to follow up with our own research.


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## Tiny Poodles

SusanG said:


> Agreed. I hope it stops now as I'm tired of it popping up and filling my inbox. Two different opinions (for whatever reason) that will never come to an agreement. (reminds me of national politics) Anyway, we all have enough information at this point to decide for ourselves, or at least enough to follow up with our own research.



Not to belabor the point, I do not think that there are two different opinions here, just some people willing to wait hear additional facts and others who think that it is an open and shut case, hang the accused.
I believe that everyone here, very much including me, would agree that whomever allowed dogs to get into the condition of those pictured in the PCA newsletter should ever be allowed within 20 feet of a dog again!


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## need_a_poo

Tiny Poodles said:


> Not to belabor the point, I do not think that there are two different opinions here, just some people willing to wait hear additional facts and others who think that it is an open and shut case, hang the accused.
> I believe that everyone here, very much including me, would agree that whomever allowed dogs to get into the condition of those pictured in the PCA newsletter should ever be allowed within 20 feet of a dog again!


Hi-- I'm confused. Are you saying the dogs in the pictures did not come from Dalin Kennels? As a potential poodle buyer the conflicting information I am reading is befuddling.


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## alwayson

*Go back and read and see the picitres*



need_a_poo said:


> Hi-- I'm confused. Are you saying the dogs in the pictures did not come from Dalin Kennels? As a potential poodle buyer the conflicting information I am reading is befuddling.


 Not in any way , the pictures are all documented by the police and the PCA and rescuers in the court records it gives the address of Dalin Kennel and were entered as evidence. Lynn was served with papers . Go back and read and look at the pictures


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## poodlecrazy#1

need_a_poo said:


> Hi-- I'm confused. Are you saying the dogs in the pictures did not come from Dalin Kennels? As a potential poodle buyer the conflicting information I am reading is befuddling.



Hun, this entire thread is befuddling!! Not only trying to get through all the arguments, and unnecessary name calling, but the unreadable posts really get your mind spinning! Yes Tinypoodles is saying that it was possibly some shelter or rescues workers that were in custody of the dogs after they were taken from Dalin.


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## MiniPoo

need_a_poo said:


> Hi-- I'm confused. Are you saying the dogs in the pictures did not come from Dalin Kennels? As a potential poodle buyer the conflicting information I am reading is befuddling.


I believe the question to be answered is not if the dogs came from Dalin kennel, but rather if they left Dalin in good shape and were mistreated by the place they were kept until they were turned over to poodle rescue. TP says there is an ongoing court case about that. Until the case is settled TP is asking that we reserve judgment that the dogs in the pictures were mistreated by Dalin.

Dalin had way too many dogs and could be criticized for that alone but whether she neglected these dogs is something that Dalin denys and she cannot prove at this time. So people who knew her are willing to wait for more info on the court case. Other people just don't trust Dalin and think there is no court case.

I think that is the controversy. Obviously if you are looking for a breeder, you would want to chose one you trust.


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## Tiny Poodles

need_a_poo said:


> Hi-- I'm confused. Are you saying the dogs in the pictures did not come from Dalin Kennels? As a potential poodle buyer the conflicting information I am reading is befuddling.



I am not sure if all or any of those dogs pictured are from Dalin Kennels (the clipped down ones pictured have a very high ear set that I have never, ever seen in a Dalin Poodle), but everyone seems to agree that the Dalin Poodles who were confiscated for being above the number legally allowed in the State of VA were in horrific condition by the time that they were turned over to poodle rescue 8 1/2 weeks after they were confiscated.

Lynn (Dalin) says that her dogs were in good condition at the time that they were taken from her, but at the shelters they were kept five dogs in a 4x4 pen, hosed down with water several times a day to clean the waste from the pen, never bathed, brushed, clipped, or exercised and fed from one large bowl of food so that the dominant dogs ate, and the more submissive ones starved. They were held under those conditions for 8 1/2 weeks before a rescue ever laid eyes upon them.

Lynn also tells me that two of her friends who actually owned dogs that were confiscated, and were allowed to pick up their dogs from the shelter just before the others were released to the rescue received the dogs in such horrible condition that they were handed over to them wrapped in large towels, because nobody wanted to touch them directly, so she does confirm that after their 8 1/2 week shelter stay, the poodles were in terrible condition.

Lynn also tells me that two of the shelter workers responsible for caring for her dogs are currently under trial, she testified at their trial, and that when that case has concluded, she hopes to have more charges pressed.

I tend to believe Lynn because
1) if the dogs had been in such a horrific condition when they were confiscated, why would they have permitted her to have kept, and continue to keep dogs up to the legal limit allowed to this day? If those pictures represent how the dogs were when they found them at Dalin Kennels, then one would think that they would have confiscated every single dog that she owned!She undergoes constant inspections, and people such as the breeder on this thread are always calling the authorities about her, yet they have never sited her or taken a one of her dogs except for those that she had in excess of what the law allowed. So I must conclude that both when the excess dogs were confiscated, and up until present day, the authorities have judged her care of her dogs, up to the legal limit to be good.

2) if a decent shelter had indeed received dogs emaciated, matted with hair, urine and feces, wouldn't they have cleaned up the dogs and fed them in the 8 1/2 weeks that the dogs were in their care? Even if they were desperately short on staff and funds, wouldn't any decent shelter plea to the community for groomers to donate services, and people to donate dog food? But no, filthy, matted with urine and feces, and emaciated was the condition that they excited the shelter in, so I can only surmise that this condition was caused by the 8 1/2 weeks of shelter care. 

3) I have not visited Dalin Kennels, but I have gotten three of the best poodles of my life from her (look in this forum in the pictures section for my 52 weeks of Dalin Timi, the Tiny Black Poodle thread to see how wonderful my latest, 10 month old poodle from Lynn is) and there are many, many people in her Facebook group that have visited her to pick up their puppies and have only good things to say about her and her kennels, and are as thrilled to pieces with their Dalin Poodles as I am. 
Although most of these Dalin Poodle owners live in different parts of the country than me, I have become close with them, chatting extensively in private messages, talking on the phone etc, so I really do feel that if, especially in light of this current issue, they had anything bad to say about Lynn, they would tell me, but nope, not a single one of them, including many who have visited her kennel believes that Lynn would ever mistreat her dogs. 
I have also known many people in the years since I got my first Dalin that I referred to her, some of whom did indeed go to VA to pick up their puppy who were more than happy with the breeder and their puppies, even my Vet, so impressed with my girls began referring his clients to Dalin, and told me that they were very pleased as well!

I am sorry that my reply was so lengthy, I wanted to answer you as factually as I possibly could - please let me know if I was unclear about anything, and I will try must best to clarify it!


----------



## Tiny Poodles

MiniPoo said:


> I believe the question to be answered is not if the dogs came from Dalin kennel, but rather if they left Dalin in good shape and were mistreated by the place they were kept until they were turned over to poodle rescue. TP says there is an ongoing court case about that. Until the case is settled TP is asking that we reserve judgment that the dogs in the pictures were mistreated by Dalin.
> 
> Dalin had way too many dogs and could be criticized for that alone but whether she neglected these dogs is something that Dalin denys and she cannot prove at this time. So people who knew her are willing to wait for more info on the court case. Other people just don't trust Dalin and think there is no court case.
> 
> I think that is the controversy. Obviously if you are looking for a breeder, you would want to chose one you trust.



Actually she can prove it with court transcripts of the testifying Veterinarians in the case - she is trying to get her copy back from AKC, whom she submitted it to, so that she can send it to me to share it here.


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## need_a_poo

alwayson said:


> Not in any way , the pictures are all documented by the police and the PCA and rescuers in the court records it gives the address of Dalin Kennel and were entered as evidence. Lynn was served with papers . Go back and read and look at the pictures


I've been following this for weeks now, on here and on Facebook as well as researching whatever I can find on the internet. Buyers need to be informed when they are considering a potential 16 year commitment when purchasing a puppy. I do thorough research, question breeders and relish corresponding with reputable breeders.

You do come across as very abrupt when you reply to posts on this subject. People might take you more seriously if you were more diplomatic in your responses rather than harsh.


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## Tiny Poodles

Tiny Poodles said:


> Actually she can prove it with court transcripts of the testifying Veterinarians in the case - she is trying to get her copy back from AKC, whom she submitted it to, so that she can send it to me to share it here.


(AKC did not care that she proved to them that the dogs were in good condition when they were confiscated, only that they were confiscated, no matter what the reason, that is a violation of their rules)


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## alwayson

*My Motive*

I have been private massage, so I am going to answer it public, My motive with this? Is to make sure that Dalin Kennesl never is allowed to sell another dog or breed another dog as long as she lives , and not one dog should EVER for one minute have to live like those poor dogs did . And the sad part is she is still selling them with help . The judge ruled that she can't breed or sell any dogs. And she is still lying to people and selling them. She is not telling people that her dogs are not AKC registered and why . She has showed no remorse for what she did. She doesn't care. The dogs are just money to her . If she was allowed she would do it all over again she has been convicted a total of 3 times . As I am determined to stop her there are people out there that are helping her sell her dogs . That is my motive , for the dogs that suffered all those years in that living hell , The pads on their feet was burn off from standing in wet feces 5 inches thick , some of the dogs couldn't even stand up straight because of that. The smell was so bad you would start choking and your throat and eyes would start to burn , and these poor dogs lived and breathed that every day as long as they lived there.. NO living thing should have to live like that , and these poor animals did for to long . That is My Motive and MY only Motive . We as human beings have to stop this . Please don't remain silent . God gave you a voice use it to stop people like her . How many of you would recommend some one to buy a dog/puppy for her ? By  Remaining Silent your saying its OK for what she did to those dogs over the years . I don't want or need any comments for any one for or against . Do What is Right .


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## Tiny Poodles

need_a_poo said:


> I've been following this for weeks now, on here and on Facebook as well as researching whatever I can find on the internet. Buyers need to be informed when they are considering a potential 16 year commitment when purchasing a puppy. I do through research, question breeders and relish corresponding with reputable breeders.
> 
> 
> 
> You do come across as very abrupt when you reply to posts on this subject. People might take you more seriously if you were more diplomatic in your responses rather than harsh.



Please do be aware when you read Facebook, that Lynn and every single person that her detractors felt might have a positive word to say about her were immediately blocked from all of the groups when this news broke.
I hope that if you do consider getting a puppy from Lynn that you are close enough to visit her and make your own determination! I trust her implicitly because of all the experiences that I have had with, and surrounding her over many years, but I know that if I were a first time potential buyer, I would have to go there and see for myself - and rest assured, she always has, and always will welcome visitors!
FYI due to her husband's new job, she will soon be moving to North Carolina - in case that impacts your ability to visit!


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## need_a_poo

poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Hun, this entire thread is befuddling!! Not only trying to get through all the arguments, and unnecessary name calling, but the unreadable posts really get your mind spinning! Yes Tinypoodles is saying that it was possibly some shelter or rescues workers that were in custody of the dogs after they were taken from Dalin.


Ack! I can't keep up! I should have stayed a lurker! :afraid:

But seriously....this whole situation is sad on so many levels. Animal cruelty is everywhere and needs to be stopped.


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## alwayson

*Sorry*



poodlecrazy#1 said:


> Hun, this entire thread is befuddling!! Not only trying to get through all the arguments, and unnecessary name calling, but the unreadable posts really get your mind spinning! Yes Tinypoodles is saying that it was possibly some shelter or rescues workers that were in custody of the dogs after they were taken from Dalin.


 I am so sorry it is confusing , just trusts your gut , Do you really think that the PCA and the courts would go to all this trouble if its not true, How many times have you heard of the AKC banned some one for ten years ? Something being said about the Shelter or rescues worker doing something wrong , if that is true so why is there is not one piece of paper work to back that statement up, and trust me I keep looking to find the truth I have gone to the court records and not one charge has been filed yet , not saying it couldn't happen but as off Wed not a thing is on file , but this case started in 2012 you would think if any one was going to file they would have done it by now and there would be some legal paper work stating that . But time is up April of 2014 statue of limitations was up. Why would Dalin wait almost 3 years to try to get any of her dogs back . Dalin can't file anything the Stateue of Limitations h as passed she never did . there is no paper work stating that If every in doubt ask to see the printed / paper work . But she is selling dogs . Which she is not to do


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## PoodlePaws

Omg. Dead horse. 

Alwayson - you've made it pretty clear that you're trying to put Dalin out of business. But you still don't have all the facts.


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## PoodleRick

Edit>>>


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## alwayson

*Well Bless your Heart !*



PoodlePaws said:


> Omg. Dead horse.
> 
> Alwayson - you've made it pretty clear that you're trying to put Dalin out of business. But you still don't have all the facts.


 sounds like you don't either , or your not reading , or checking out the facts that your getting . if the Courts and a judge and the pictures and the AKC and PCA article in Print that is out there is not enough proof for you then your head is up some where , . that is not enough for you I can see you don't want to stop this and all for it so be it , I don't think we have any more to say to each other . Well Bless Your Heart Waving By


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## PoodlePaws

Yes it needs to be stopped. But you need to see when the photos and report was published versus when the dogs were removed from Dalin. I guarantee if the dogs were removed looking like they did in the photos, ALL THE DOGS WOULDVE BEEN TAKEN. not just part of them. And the charges were for having too many dogs. Not for the condition they were in. 

Also, don't even start with me about "you must this" or "you must that". Don't assume. I care about getting all of the facts in their entirety before forming an opinion on this. And not before all facts are presented.


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## alwayson

*you need to know the laws*



PoodlePaws said:


> Yes it needs to be stopped. But you need to see when the photos and report was published versus when the dogs were removed from Dalin. I guarantee if the dogs were removed looking like they did in the photos, ALL THE DOGS WOULDVE BEEN TAKEN. not just part of them. And the charges were for having too many dogs. Not for the condition they were in.
> 
> Also, don't even start with me about "you must this" or "you must that". Don't assume. I care about getting all of the facts in their entirety before forming an opinion on this. And not before all facts are presented.


She had a lic for 50 dogs they only took the worst and by law she could keep the other , then part two kick in , I do wish you understood the laws more , start doing your research and look up the laws for that state . Yes all the dogs should have been taken but the rescue was already overloaded with dogs , that is why they contacted the owner so the dog that lynn was using for stud and they thought the dogs where being taken care of , the only way they the owner knew their dog was by the the chips in the dogs , There was more then just the one agency involved. If your really interested then please go back and read the reports there was a lot of info there . I know its a lot to understand . I am sure every one is tired of hearing about this so privet message me if you want


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## Tiny Poodles

PoodlePaws said:


> Yes it needs to be stopped. But you need to see when the photos and report was published versus when the dogs were removed from Dalin. I guarantee if the dogs were removed looking like they did in the photos, ALL THE DOGS WOULDVE BEEN TAKEN. not just part of them. And the charges were for having too many dogs. Not for the condition they were in.
> 
> Also, don't even start with me about "you must this" or "you must that". Don't assume. I care about getting all of the facts in their entirety before forming an opinion on this. And not before all facts are presented.



Bravo!! Thank you for looking at this with an intelligent and open mind!


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## plumcrazy

I'm still getting reports regarding the posts on this thread. Unless there is NEW information regarding this issue, please refrain from adding additional posts here. 

If you're going to say the same things over and over, when you KNOW it's just causing hard feelings to members of this forum - just don't do it! We've heard enough of the same thing over and over. Consider this thread under watch. We can all do without the drama.


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## alwayson

*have bee ask not asnwer any more question*



plumcrazy said:


> I'm still getting reports regarding the posts on this thread. Unless there is NEW information regarding this issue, please refrain from adding additional posts here.
> 
> If you're going to say the same things over and over, when you KNOW it's just causing hard feelings to members of this forum - just don't do it! We've heard enough of the same thing over and over. Consider this thread under watch. We can all do without the drama.


 I have been ask again not to reply to anything that that has already be said about the Dalin closed case and I thought if ask a question by some one it was ok but I guess not and I am going to honor that. and I agree with her. :angel:


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## alwayson

:angel:


alwayson said:


> Yes yes, its all true it's in the reports , and on line and on The Dog Press the conduction of these poor dogs was disgusting, to lesson to the people that where there talk about it how the dogs look and smelled and look like. Some of he owner that let Lynn use their dogs and thought they were being taken care of , didn't even look like a breed of any kind. The owner where found threw their chips . Lynn wouldn't tell them a thing,she stayed in her house like she didn't do a thing wrong . When the some of the owners came to get their Ch . Pet then didn't even recognized there own dogs any more. There was no way in hell that she couldn't , see or smell how bad these poor dogs were suffering . She has fought this or 2 years , and the kicker is this is not her first offence . I think she has been in court 3 times for the same thing . I posted all thing on FB the articles and pictures also , Groups that she was on their sits ,The block her and her friend Lori something about 6 months ago I ask this Lori about Lynns suspension and she told me 'O that was all a big mistake " and she is still in good standing with AKC This somethings is the one that does the pushing of selling Lynn's puppy' She Would say would post pictures of the puppys for Lynn and then say Oh go to Dalin site and see all the puppys she has is a wonderful person and breeder ig lieThe women is going to keep selling her puppy mill puppys and this Lorie
> and others are going to help , I am sure they are getting paid for every puppy they sell. I am wondering if Dalin and Lorie pays taxes on her puppy's
> she is selling ???? Maybe the tip line at the IRS would like to here about that .


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## MiniPoo

plumcrazy said:


> I'm still getting reports regarding the posts on this thread. Unless there is NEW information regarding this issue, please refrain from adding additional posts here.
> 
> If you're going to say the same things over and over, when you KNOW it's just causing hard feelings to members of this forum - just don't do it! We've heard enough of the same thing over and over. Consider this thread under watch. We can all do without the drama.


Alwayson, re-posting your earlier post is not new information.


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## alwayson

alwayson said:


> 9261290100142923174799 9261290100142923174799


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## patk

the grinch intending to steal christmas?


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## alwayson

[g xxxxxxxxxxxx


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