# Seriously considering trying the homemade route



## TeamHellhound (Feb 5, 2021)

It might be something of a long shot, but has she been tested for exocrine pancreatic insufficiency? Chronic (or recurring) loose stools and weight loss are two of the symptoms. If nothing else, having her tested can at least eliminate the question of it being the cause of her issues.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

TeamHellhound said:


> It might be something of a long shot, but has she been tested for exocrine pancreatic insufficiency? Chronic (or recurring) loose stools and weight loss are two of the symptoms. If nothing else, having her tested can at least eliminate the question of it being the cause of her issues.


I will ask about it, but there hasn´t technically been weight loss. A better description is a lack of adequate weight gain and I would say that the low weight has been proportional to the low amount of food that she consumes and the high amount of physical energy.


----------



## JasMom (7 mo ago)

I think given that you've tried different commercially prepared foods with limited success, why not try a homemade diet? I'm not sure how European vets differ, but at least in my rural area of the US, vets discourage "alternative" diets. I had asked for my vet's opinion on raw feeding because I can raise a lot of the meats myself and know they are humanely kept, but she didn't like the idea and talked me out of it. Hopefully you are able to get better guidance. I know one of my dog books has a base recipe for homemade food and the book is at least 20-30 years old at this point.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I have home fed my animals for years. Poppy is now on a canned hepatic diet plus home cooked chicken - I did concoct a suitable recipe when she was first diagnosed and refused the commercial food but it was complicated and as she has done very well on the Royal Canin so I stick to that. Tilly-cat is now mostly on a commercial renal diet as, like the majority of elderly cats, her kidneys are showing signs of wear now she is nearly 20 and she is extremely faddy as a result, but Sophy at 14 is still thriving on home made and Freddy is fit as a flea. While it is a good idea to consult a nutritionist it is not essential as long as you are prepared to do some research (in the UK such a consultation is nigh on impossible - there are only a handful of fully qualified veterinary nutritionists and they all seem to be snapped up by the big pet food manufacturers).

It is not that difficult to concoct a balanced diet using real food rather than relying on supplements - there are apps online to help or you can create your own spreadsheet based on the US and European nutritional standards and analytical information from sites like FoodData Central The great thing about home cooking is that you can juggle things round a bit to fit the specific dog's needs - Sophy cannot tolerate turkey and even 7-8% bone makes her costive, so I avoid turkey, use a little less bone and add a little ground eggshell. The most informative website I have found is www.dogaware.com. I did a huge amount of research when I first started - now I tend to cook for my dogs as I do for myself - by eye and approximation, a bit more of this one week and that another, reckoning to cover all the bases over time.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

Annie eats slightly over half home cooked food, with my vets full support. I average out and lower the fat of her kibble with the home cooked.

She has chronic pancreatitis related to her Addison's. She can't handle high fat, chicken, fish, or duck. There is maybe one prescription vet food that would work, but it would be prescription, and cost about $100+/bag, with a bag lasting less than a month. Plus, ingredients would include wheat. I use kibble for training treats, and am celiac, so a gluten free kibble is a must. There is a wet food that works, but it stinks and I am not made of enough money to pay for a standard poodle to eat 100% wet food.

The price of the one kibble that works for her has gone through the roof (from a perennial sale at $58/bag to $92-98/bag!!! ) so I am looking at alternative kibbles. Fully homecooked would be cheaper right now. 

I bought this spread sheet, with which I really carefully balance her food to NRC standards.








Raw Fed and Nerdy Formulation Sheet







rawfedandnerdy.com





It would be much easier if she could tolerate higher fat and more meat. The spread sheet will also let you incorporate commercial foods into your dog's daily mix when balancing. I typically just aim for balance in the home cooked side and know what fat % to target.

I love a well designed spread sheet in general, and this one in particular gives me more confidence I am not missing anything. It has also helped me pin point what Annie does best with (high fibre, low meat, higher calcium). 

I make 8 weeks of meat mix at a time, and prepare 2 weeks of the combined cooked food at a time. I'd say it takes about 2-4 hrs per month plus a fair bit of freezer space. I vary the meat mix each batch based on what is on sale, and try to somewhat rotate between different protein and carb sources. I end up supplementing zinc, vitamin E, omega 3s, selenium, iodine, d3, and calcium. With a dog able to tolerate more fat/meat, balancing becomes far easier. 

Her coat is glossy and soft, she isn't losing weight or vomitting, her stool is usually good, and she hasn't had an Addison's or pancreatitis crisis in more than a year. Our vet told my mother last time she took her dog in that with most owners Annie would be dead, but, so far so good!


----------



## cowpony (Dec 30, 2009)

Commercial dog food has only been around for a century or so; clearly many millennia of dogs did just fine without it. I think there are three reasons most people do and should stick with a commercial diet:

-Cost (Even the prescription diet my guys eat is cheaper than if I were trying to meet their needs with the cuts of meat and supplemental ingredients available at my local markets)
-Convenience (Chasing down the ingredients, setting aside an afternoon for cooking, and storing all the frozen meals would be a hassle)
-Care (A farm dog has the option of supplementing an improperly balanced diet with stolen eggs and other scavenged snacks. A house pet is entirely dependent on the careful planning of the cook.)

However, you are not most people, and Evra is not most dogs. Given how much care you have taken with all your animals, I'm sure you will plan the diet carefully. Evra is a small dog, so the amount of food she needs will be manageable. If you feel she's not thriving on a commercial diet, and if you feel ready for the challenge, I think you are the right person to try the experiment.


----------



## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Just a thought because Home cooking didn't work for Pia, nor did raw, or freeze dried or fresh pet style foods.

Pia has food intolerances to chicken, beef, lamb, I can however feed one type kibble, Health Extensions grain free white fish and Buffalo, I had a long conversation with my vet, she said basically why mess with what works.

Pia is limited on treats and chews she can happily eat as well.

Pia's food intolerances caused her to be a fussy eater, caused gas, belly pain, belching, runny eyes, diarrhea, soft stools, vomiting, some foods she could eat for a bit and then not, depending on the food some foods caused all the above mentioned symptoms some just a few of the symptoms.
It took me 18 months to find food that would work as well as treats and chews.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Well she had just her dry food for dinner last night. I was so happy that she had the appetite for it. Started wondering whether I was overreacting. Then she vomited it all up an hour later... No other signs of illness. 

So I am wondering whether its ok if I do my own research and put together a menu for her and start transitioning her. Then check in with a veterinary nutritionist early in the new year so they can review my menu? 

I have already made a little excel file. Trying out calculating the macronutrients. I just took some foods that I currently have in my kitchen. Input their nutritional value per gram. Then I used a formula so that the cell with the nutritional value would be multplied by the number in same row in column H. Column H is the number of grams, I am estimating that she would eat around 100gr per day. Then there is the sum at the bottom. So I can immediately see how much protein and fat Evra would get as I change the numbers in column H

The numbers in row 11 are the compositions that I am aiming to achieve per portion. She should be getting roughly 272 cal per day. Then I used the information on the dry food to estimate the ratio of protein, fat and fiber. I increased the fiber a little because I feel she does better with a few extra grams of fiber (increased from 1% to 3%). 

So what I do is that I change the numbers in column H until the numbers in row 10 are as close to the row 11 as possible. 











But these are just macronutrients. I think that the harder part is the micronutrients. I am planning on using the dry food label as a guide and figure those out next. I will probably rely on supplements, especially for taurine, to ensure that there are no deficiencies and that the nutrients are easily absored by her body and not compromised by storage or cooking. 

But I am thinking that as long as I am not overdosing her on anything dangerous and I check which nutrients can actually be harmful in high doses (more is not always better with all vitamins) that I probably won't be doing her any harm if I feed her homemade for a couple of months before checking in with a nutritionist. 

It might also save me money if I can present the nutritionist with a food diary and menu that they can evaluate and correct for me. I will also then have some experiences with what Evra will eat and do well with. It might make it easier for them and perhaps will mean that I might not need a follow up appointment as each session is like 100 euros.


----------



## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

That's definitely missing micronutrients - particularly those from offal and bone.

How much does Evra weigh?


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> That's definitely missing micronutrients - particularly those from offal and bone.
> 
> How much does Evra weigh?


Oh yes totally!! I havent started on calculating the micronutrients. Thats next. 

It was mainly a trial run to set up the excel and get a sense of the macronutrients. I will be looking into supplements for the micronutrients because I am not sure whether Evra will be enthusiastic about organs. I tried rabbit liver in the past, I will try it again. 

But yeah micronutrient deficiency is my biggest concern.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

For Want of Poodle said:


> How much does Evra weigh?


She is 4kg and very active


----------



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

curlflooffan said:


> I tried rabbit liver in the past, I will try it again.


Be careful with liver. In small doses it's very healthy. But it's a source of fat soluable Vitamin A. Unlike water soluable vitamins (which most vitamins are) which are peed out when in excess, fat soluable are stored in fat. Too much Vitamin A leads to Vitamin A poisoning. This is why it can be tricky balancing out ingredients in a dog recipe.









Vitamin A Poisoning in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospital


Too much vitamin A or hypervitaminosis A can lead to serious toxicity. While somewhat uncommon in North America, vitamin A toxicity is sometimes diagnosed in dogs that are fed primarily table scraps. It takes a long time for the clinical signs associated with vitamin A toxicity to develop...




vcahospitals.com


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

@Skylar yep I am aware of the dangers of fat soluble vitamins including VitA. Calcium is also another concern, its vital but too much is dangerous.

This is something one has to be careful with a small dog. It doesnt take much to overdose a 4kg dog. 

I need to do a ton of research but I am leaning towards the idea of relying more on supplements rather than offal to get a complete nutrition. I am thinking that it might make the calculations easier/more accurate.

I need to make a list of essential nutrients that can be toxic in too high doses


----------



## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

curlflooffan said:


> Well she had just her dry food for dinner last night. I was so happy that she had the appetite for it. Started wondering whether I was overreacting. Then she vomited it all up an hour later... No other signs of illness.


Was it a true vomit or regurgitation? Peggy was extra hungry twice in the past week and uncharacteristically wolfed down a ton of food. Both times the food came back up, undigested. The second time I didn’t clean it up right away, to see if she would eat it again. And sure enough she did just a few minutes later. It stayed down no problem.


----------



## Starla (Nov 5, 2020)

Have you considered trying a ‘just add meat’ base food? I know honest kitchen has one, but surely they’re not the only ones.


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Starla said:


> Have you considered trying a ‘just add meat’ base food? I know honest kitchen has one, but surely they’re not the only ones.


I will see if something like this is available in Belgium.


----------



## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Ground eggshell is an easy and readily available calcium source - i teaspoonful (5g) per kilo of meat. Manganese and magnesium are in wholemeal flour - if you use a wholemeal pasta that would probably contain enough and would also up the fibre content. Sunflower oil is a good source of vitamin E. A little green leafy veg brings in vit K etc. Duck with the skin on would be too high in fat for mine, especially for Poppy!


----------



## curlflooffan (Mar 27, 2020)

Well.... 

Evra and I went to a huge dog show last Saturday to watch and for Evra to be introduced again to the environment and learn to be calm in it. I am hoping to debut her in the ring this spring. 

Evra's breeder was there and she pointed to a male (who ended up taking BOB for the dwarfs) and said that she wants him for reproducing with Evra. 

I was like 'to do what with who now!' 

I am having a lot of emotions about the prospect of becoming a grandmother. There are a billion questions to address. But it does mean that in regards to Evra's nutrition I will have to be even more careful. I am going to be methodical and careful, I am going to keep feeding her dog food until I have all my ducks in a row. I might give her one homeamade meal a week to see how her digestion responds without risking major imbalances. She won't be bred her next heat anyway so we have months, possibly a year (the best age for a small dog is something I am researching/seeking guidance on from experienced breeders). 

I might actually still book that consultation with the nutritionist even if I decide to stick to dog food. Especially with pregnancy its not just about giving her enough so she doesn't have a deficiency but you can also have problems if you give a pregnant bitch too much of certain nutrients. I don't know everything that I need to know but I do know enough to recognise that there are blindspots in my knowledge that I need to illuminate if I go ahead and have a litter from Evra and/or switch to homemade food.


----------

