# Steer clear



## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

I've owned 4 standard poodles from 3 different breeders and, until now, have never had reason to advise AGAINST a particular breeder. That changed this year when my youngest dog was diagnosed with a genetic bone deformity. Not only has the breeder refused any responsibility or involvement, he has now completely cut off all contact and abandoned my puppy and 2 others in the litter. He has very nice dogs and has a nice puppy rearing protocol, but you can only count on him when nothing goes wrong. Gladystar Standard Poodles, Saukville, WI. Buy from him at your own risk!


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## MaizieFrosty (Apr 12, 2019)

I'm so sorry this happened to your dog and littermates. Thank you very much for the warning.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

Thanks for the warning. I am in Wisconsin, and if I ever consider a standard, I will make sure to avoid them. So sorry you are going through this.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Wow, so sorry about this! I also would have thought this breeder looks excellent based on website. Awful that you are not getting their support. I'm curious, and if you don't mind, could you give the age of your dog and any other info about the bone issue?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm so sorry ?


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

How awful. I'm so glad you are able to warn others but I wish you were getting the help you needed. (((HUGS)))

I also have to wonder - it's potentially two dogs to avoid - both the dam and the sire. So you know who the sire was?


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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

I have two dogs from this breeder and, until this problem, I would have sworn he's a great breeder. I would still be saying that if a problem hadn't occurred. He was concerned initially, but as the facts were discovered he quickly dug in and declared he'd done nothing wrong and owed his buyers nothing. 
He's correct that he didn't do anything wrong. There is no test for this condition and both the dam and sire had been bred to other dogs before with no problems. This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. The sire is a Valentine dog; he'll never be bred again. His owner is devastated.
The technical name is "bilateral angular front limb deformity". It can be caused by damaged growth plates or rapid growth in large breed puppies. When it's seen in multiple pups in the same litter it's almost certainly genetic. This litter is being studied at the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab, so hopefully they'll find markers and develop a test.
In these puppies, the ulna stopped growing prematurely. The radius continued to grow and became bowed and twisted. Their front legs are shorter than they should be; the radius sticks out laterally at the elbows and medially at the wrists (see picture). Sometimes early surgical intervention can correct it, but it wasn't discovered soon enough in these puppies. All were left furry and fluffy, so it just couldn't be seen. It was noticed in one of the conformation pups when her front feet started angling outward. All were diagnosed around 9 months of age. They are now 15 months old. All were purchased as performance dogs; two for conformation. Mine was purchased primarily as an agility dog. That dream is now gone. My dog was evaluated by two orthopedic surgeons and a sport/rehab vet. For now surgery isn't recommended, but I'll have to watch her for pain and lameness her entire life, and surgery could be in her future. She had signs of arthritis at 11 months. 
I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it. But, once it was discovered he failed miserably to do the right thing. When I asked for a refund he accused me of trying to destroy the pure bred dog breeding community, suggested I'd subject my puppy to unnecessary surgery, and denied he'd sold me a dog for agility. (If you check his website you'll see he says all his puppies can be expected to excel at all performance sports.) I haven't heard from him since.
I've attached a pretty cringe-worthy picture of what her legs look like, one of her x-rays, and another picture that shows how cute she is. Crooked legs or not, she's a lovely little dog and we will just have to find things other than agility to do together.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

What a sweet looking girl!! It is devastating to know she already has arthritis and might be in more pain in the future. Poor baby


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## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

It's heartbreaking to see the photos and knowing you had wanted to participate in agility. I hope they find the genetic loci so it can be tested.


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## Raindrops (Mar 24, 2019)

Thank you for the information! That is so heartbreaking. I hope they will be able to find a genetic marker for this. With three affected pups it's certainly definitely genetic, and the breeder should have stepped up.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I was looking at this breeder 4 years ago because of their agility accomplishments. Breeder support is very high on my list of criteria. I particularly respect breeders that are open about health issues they’ve encountered with their breeding dogs and how they dealt with them. Thank you for sharing this.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I am so sorry. It’s shameful the breeder couldn’t find those words and instead tried to berate you with that wild claim. I sincerely hope the genetic marker is found. I feel so badly for your poodle and the others affected in the litter.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Oh dear. I have been reading along as this conversation has progressed. She looks like a lovely lively sprite. I am sorry it looks like she is going to have a hard life with arthritis. It is also unfortunate to have had to let go of the agility dream. 



You are a good and kind soul to do all of the work you are doing to help advance research to understand the genetics of this condition. Since both sire and dam have been bred to other dogs with no apparently affected pups it sounds like it is probably an autosomal recessive pattern of inheritance. Each parent should have one copy of the disease allele and the affected pups should each show two copies of that allele.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Deb said:


> He's correct that he didn't do anything wrong. There is no test for this condition and both the dam and sire had been bred to other dogs before with no problems. This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. ............
> 
> I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it.
> 
> ...


This is appalling. Any excellent breeder needs to be able to honor their promises. Even if it wasn't his fault, he needs to refund any purchaser of a dog that did not meet his promises. 

Your dog is so lucky to have you as a loving owner, regardless.

Thank you for letting us know !


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Oh the poor baby. Did you report the breeder? Does anyone care?

I went through the same thing with Doris Grant, a completely unethical breeder in Canada who brokered Ricky from Florida. When he needed surgery for luxating patella at 6 months, and I had already paid for the surgery, she 'kindly' offered to take him back.

My poodle before Ricky came from a puppy mill 'breeder' sanctioned by the AKC. She was ultimately sanctioned by them for a few months, but was not banned. 

Unethical breeders should be banned from the profession. I guess no one in charge really cares.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

*A different point of view...*



Deb said:


> I have two dogs from this breeder and, until this problem, I would have sworn he's a great breeder. I would still be saying that if a problem hadn't occurred. He was concerned initially, but as the facts were discovered he quickly dug in and declared he'd done nothing wrong and owed his buyers nothing.
> He's correct that he didn't do anything wrong. *There is no test for this condition and both the dam and sire had been bred to other dogs before with no problems. This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. The sire is a Valentine dog; he'll never be bred again. His owner is devastated.*
> The technical name is "bilateral angular front limb deformity". It can be caused by damaged growth plates or rapid growth in large breed puppies. When it's seen in multiple pups in the same litter it's almost certainly genetic. This litter is being studied at the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab, so hopefully they'll find markers and develop a test.
> In these puppies, the ulna stopped growing prematurely. The radius continued to grow and became bowed and twisted. Their front legs are shorter than they should be; the radius sticks out laterally at the elbows and medially at the wrists (see picture). Sometimes early surgical intervention can correct it, but it wasn't discovered soon enough in these puppies. All were left furry and fluffy, so it just couldn't be seen. It was noticed in one of the conformation pups when her front feet started angling outward. All were diagnosed around 9 months of age. They are now 15 months old. All were purchased as performance dogs; two for conformation. Mine was purchased primarily as an agility dog. That dream is now gone. My dog was evaluated by two orthopedic surgeons and a sport/rehab vet. For now surgery isn't recommended, but I'll have to watch her for pain and lameness her entire life, and surgery could be in her future. She had signs of arthritis at 11 months.
> ...


Deb -- I am so sorry for the devastating loss of your dreams of doing agility with your dog, and for the need to deal with what sounds like life-long mobility problems and possible surgery in the future. What a huge disappointment. 

But I'm not in agreement with you and others on this forum about the breeder's responsibility. You say quite clearly that the breeder did not know and could not have known about this problem. Whenever someone buys a dog, there is a risk of illness -- genetic illness and other illness. Things sometimes go wrong. So the question is, whose responsibility is it if things go wrong?

If you have a contract where the breeder specifically guarantees that there will be no genetic illnesses, then of course the breeder would have to compensate you in whatever way that the contract specifies. But if there is no such clause in the contract, then I really don't feel that it is up to the breeder to pay. (Sorry to disagree with you on this.) It sounds to me like the breeder is taking responsible steps to have the issues studied and to not breed the sire again (and I assume that the dam will likewise not be bred again?). I think we need to hold breeders responsible for testing for things that can be tested, and for knowing the general health of the lines they are breeding. But holding them responsible for something that they did not know and could not have known seems like it is going too far.


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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

peppersb, I appreciate your view point, and I can't say I completely disagree. The contract has a genetic disease clause for a couple specific conditions. This condition wasn't named, probably because it was a completely unexpected problem. I asked my breeder to consider a refund as an extension of this genetic clause. I would have accepted a partial refund, especially since I made it clear I wanted to keep the puppy. I also made it clear I would be responsible for her past and future medical bills. I would have accepted anything to help mitigate my expenses. This wasn't intentional and caught all of us completely off-guard. But, whether it's in the contract or not, how fair is it for the breeder to keep 100% of what I paid for this dog that was sold for an understood purpose, and leave me to bear all of the financial consequences? Whether it's in the contract or not, a truly caring and responsible breeder would have made some effort to at least share the loss. Instead he lied, accused me of ridiculous things, and lectured me on the costs of breeding dogs. 
Also, the breeder had nothing to do with the research into this litter. I initiated that. The breeder and owner of the stud are cooperating by sending samples. I'm quite sure the sire won't be bred again. I'm not at all sure about the dam (owned by the breeder). His attitude thus far leaves me with little confidence in him or his judgement. 
Thanks for your comments.


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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

Update: I've had another email from this breeder. There won't be any resolution to our difference of opinion and our future lack of communication will be mutual. He is technically following the terms of our contract and he believes that's all he needs to do. He did offer to take my puppy back at 9 months and replace her with another puppy. I was pretty attached to her by then and didn't want to do that. I had hoped we might find some compromise. He disagrees, so nothing will change. 
I know there are breeders out there who either have more inclusive health guarantees or will go beyond their stated health guarantee when things go terribly wrong. This experience has taught me that things CAN go wrong and to read the contract with that in mind. With my next puppy I'll look for a breeder who will, either through policy or ethics, do what they can to help offset the losses of their buyer.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

This makes me feel so sad. That you are willing to still love and keep your dog, and yet he will only take the pup back at 9 months? If you were to return your pup, what would he do with her? I almost hate to ask.

I am so disturbed by this that I am willing to send the thread to my breeder to see what their opinion is. I really want to know what they might do in this situation. 

Is this an ok thing to do per the guidelines of Poodleforum, and of the posters and thread originator here?


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Deb said:


> ...This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. The sire is a Valentine dog; he'll never be bred again. His owner is devastated... The technical name is "bilateral angular front limb deformity"... This litter is being studied at the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab, so hopefully they'll find markers and develop a test...





lily cd re said:


> ...Since both sire and dam have been bred to other dogs with no apparently affected pups it sounds like it is probably an autosomal recessive pattern of inheritance. Each parent should have one copy of the disease allele and the affected pups should each show two copies of that allele.





peppersb said:


> ...If you have a contract where the breeder specifically guarantees that there will be no genetic illnesses, then of course the breeder would have to compensate you in whatever way that the contract specifies...
> 
> I think we need to hold breeders responsible for testing for things that can be tested, and for knowing the general health of the lines they are breeding. But holding them responsible for something that they did not know and could not have known seems like it is going too far.





Deb said:


> ... I asked my breeder to consider a refund as an extension of this genetic clause. I would have accepted a partial refund, especially since I made it clear I wanted to keep the puppy. I also made it clear I would be responsible for her past and future medical bills. I would have accepted anything to help mitigate my expenses...





Deb said:


> Today: He is technically following the terms of our contract and he believes that's all he needs to do. He did offer to take my puppy back at 9 months and replace her with another puppy. I was pretty attached to her by then and didn't want to do that. I had hoped we might find some compromise.


I find this situation interesting especially from a communication and legal standpoint.

The first thing that strikes me is this: If for example your puppy cost $2K, and the breeder was willing to _swap_ it for another one of equal cost, then the breeder would have been out of $2K either way. Chances are, the breeder could not ever resell your dog for anything close to the original price. It would likely be rehomed for close to free. 

A *smarter* solution, I think, is if the breeder had offered to refund your money _and_ you get to keep your dog. Why he/she didn't think of this, I don't know. 

The *smartest* solution, however, would have been if the breeder offered you the partial refund you asked for to offset medical costs. This would be much less expensive than giving you replacement pup which he could sell for full price. 

*I wonder if Gladystar had an overly cautious attorney advising them to not give you a partial refund to offset medical costs as this could be interpreted as knowingly selling you a defective puppy.* 

*If so, that can be remedied* by having a short contract drawn up stating that the partial refund in no way implies nor burdens the breeder of past, present, or future medical liability. It may be worth your time to make one last attempt communicating with him. I would draw up a simple contract stating this, with a short, non-emotional letter explaining that rather than doing the puppy replacement that _he_ suggested, you will accept partial refund would be more financially advantageous to him.

Per the contract, he is in no way obligated to respond; he has done is due diligence. He also offered you another pup, and is contributing to the DNA Purdue project. These are positives and to me, a sign of a good breeder. So presented this way and to put the matter at rest, he might accept, so allow for some time for him to think it over. I'd also mail it certified with receipt.

Lastly, see if your dog can be part of the Purdue study if not already in enrolled. While your puppy sadly has this genetic condition, you love her and what her DNA contributes to science may turn out to be invaluable, making her a winner in a very unexpected way. Good luck.


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## Mufar42 (Jan 1, 2017)

I think I cannot totally fault this breeder either. This condition is not one the could have been tested for and "stuff" happens. Even when we have children.. We don't think or know they can become sick or have a disability. The breeder sold you this pup as a agility prospect but there isn't a guarantee the dog will enjoy or do this,, still something could have happened that made this not be feasible so you can't necessarily hold them responsible. I do think though as a breeder he could offer you a pup from another litter free, with the knowledge that you will care for this dog for its entire life. I think that would be an ethical thing to do.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I am so very sorry you are going through this.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

I think the breeder should allow you to keep your puppy, being as you are willing to keep her and undertake to provide medical for her for the rest of her life, which will be outside the norm, AND also offer you a new puppy from a future litter (if you should want to get another puppy from them). Breeders who offer a resolution of taking a puppy back and refunding purchase price play on people's emotions because they know the puppy buyer is usually quite attached to the puppy at that point and will often not want to return the dog. When the people refuse to do so, the breeder feels justified in considering the matter closed because the owner didn't accept the solution of returning. I wonder how this breeder would respond to questions about the issue with multiple puppies in this litter if they were contacted by third parties who had read about it? They are "technically" fulfilling the terms of the contract because it didn't specifically mention this disease, yes, but they know full well that you purchased the puppy for agility/performance purposes which is completely out of the question now and the dog will seemingly have issues even as a normal pet, if it is already experiencing arthritis at 11 months. Yes, it is true that the dog was a performance prospect and there is no guarantee that it would pan out once you began training, but to never have had the chance at all due to a genetic defect, even if not known in the lines, is something the breeder should have stood behind and made right to your satisfaction IMO. It's not like the puppy had an accident and broke a leg, etc. while in your care. And as far as I am concerned, this breeder has already done a disservice to their name. After reading this, I would never recommend this breeder to anyone and I frequently get asked.


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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

Vita: Your suggestion makes excellent sense, but I don't think I want to try again. He's dug in and I doubt he'll be swayed by any proposal. He feels justified in keeping all my money and letting me deal with the consequences. I stated up front that I didn't hold him responsible in any way. Blame was never my intention. I'm quite surprised he didn't reason out what you suggested, or something close, himself. He could have refunded a portion of the $2500 I paid for my puppy and come out looking like a prince. Instead he has an unhappy buyer (actually, three unhappy buyers) who is sharing the truth of my experience with anyone who will listen. 
He planned to resell my puppy to a pet home. He thinks she can live in a pet home with no further problems. I know that's likely not the case. Even as a couch potato, she may experience lameness, arthritis and pain, which could require surgery. 
My puppy was evaluated and diagnosed at the Purdue Vet Teaching Hospital, and I suggested the research project to the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab. All the other puppies in the litter, with and without the deformity, are participating, as are the owners of both the dam and sire. With full participation, I'm hoping maybe they'll learn something. I work in research at Purdue, so I'm really excited about being part of research that could lead to a tool that could be used to avoid this in the future.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I'd be getting together with those other buyers who got screwed out of a healthy dog and getting a lawyer. Whether or not the breeder knew what he was breeding, whether or not it was the fault of the breeder, the breeder is ultimately (or should be) responsible for what he produces. Bottom line. $2,500 is a lot of money to pay for a dog. He should have given you back your money to help cover the future vet bills. Naturally, you were already attached by the time this all came to light. That's what selfish, uncaring breeders count on. He should have made things right for you regardless. I'm so sorry this happened to you. I'm sure you'll make a happy, loving home for your pup. And hopefully, he won't suffer too much. I would get the word out as much as possible to prevent something like this happening to others.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Deb said:


> ... This litter is being studied at the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab, so hopefully they'll find markers and develop a test. In these puppies, the ulna stopped growing prematurely... It was noticed in one of the conformation pups when her front feet started angling outward. All were diagnosed around 9 months of age. *They are now 15 months old*...
> 
> *All were purchased as performance dogs; two for conformation. Mine was purchased primarily as an agility dog. That dream is now gone.*
> 
> My dog was evaluated by two orthopedic surgeons and a sport/rehab vet. For now surgery isn't recommended, but I'll have to watch her for pain and lameness her entire life, and surgery could be in her future. She had signs of arthritis at 11 months...


Deb, I'll propose something radical by PF standards, but I'll first explain where my point of view is coming from. I am 63. The months and years over the decades have been slow, but at the same time, fast. It's like you look up from time to time and wonder where the time went.

Your dog is very young, only a year and three months old. She could live another decade. You don't need to tell us, but think how old you will be then, then _think of all the years you will have missed not being able to follow your dream in sacrifice to her_. 

*Self-sacrifice* is not necessarily the only way to show love, especially if/when there's an undercurrent of regret, feelings of guilt or fears of criticism at even the thought of walking away.

If you take your time and are diligent in looking, you may be able to find someone who would be delighted to have a nice poodle and have the financial resources needed, and won't mind the health problems that lay ahead for her. There _are_ people like that, where it makes them feel needed and happy to care for a disabled pet or family member. Think of all the parents who intentionally adopted a special needs child, or pet owners who adopted a dog or senior dog with known health problems. 

In other words, by find her a loving home that will be a good fit for that person's needs will free you to find another poodle that be a good fit for your dreams. Important, because life is short and goes by fast, and also important, is the point is she has a life of being loved by someone.

Those are just some thoughts. Good luck, no matter what you do.


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I hate to be the pessimist, it how can anyone know for sure this problem hasn’t come up before with either the sire or dam? You can only take people’s word for it. I’m upset for you that he won’t take the ethical path and at least refund you half of what you paid. The blame doesn’t really lie with either one of you, but I would think, if he has a conscience, he’d work with you.

But she looks like a sweet, lovely girl, and I know you love her. I’m so sorry you’re going through this. All you can do is continue to love her forever. It’s great that you’ll be aiding in the research for this malady so that this can be tested for.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## For Want of Poodle (Feb 25, 2019)

How heart breaking! 

I wonder, if this is a gene that is recessive and needs two copies to express.... Then approximately a quarter of the litter (plus or minus a few) would be affected. How many puppies were in the litter? You know of three involved in the performance world, I wonder if there are more out there, sold to pet homes. Perhaps the breeder just doesn't have enough money to cover all the affected puppies. That would explain being helpful at first, then backing away angrily as the full extent of the problem became known. Definitely none of the puppies from the litter should be bred.

I am so glad you are involved in a research project with these dogs, and so glad the dam and sire are participating. I think I met a less than 1 year old 3/4 poodle a few years ago with the same issue here in canada. It was a sweet dog (red or apricot?), but couldn't run, and couldn't walk much.They were an active young couple with their first dog. Pretty devestating. I didn't see it more than once or twice, I wonder what happened to it... My suspicion, based on your experience, would be the doodle breeder bred two closely related dogs (poodle and closely related half poodle) both carrying it. I really hope they can isolate what causes it, so future dogs can be bred to avoid it. It's not fair to the puppies or the owners.


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## scooterscout99 (Dec 3, 2015)

I really appreciate all of the thoughtful posts in this thread. ‘Fully health tested’ and ‘guaranteed’ meant nothing to me when I started searching for a spoo. There was a column in my breeder spreadsheet with both headings, but the language varied from one breeder to the next.

I chose the purebred route because of the possibility of health tested parents. The OP’s situation is an example that there are diseases still without genetic tests.

One other topic is the Poodle Health Registry. It only works if all owners report known diseases in their dogs.

Poodle Health Registry


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

*Steer Clear*



Deb said:


> Vita: Your suggestion makes excellent sense, but I don't think I want to try again. He's dug in and I doubt he'll be swayed by any proposal. He feels justified in keeping all my money and letting me deal with the consequences. I stated up front that I didn't hold him responsible in any way. Blame was never my intention. I'm quite surprised he didn't reason out what you suggested, or something close, himself. He could have refunded a portion of the $2500 I paid for my puppy and come out looking like a prince. Instead he has an unhappy buyer (actually, three unhappy buyers) who is sharing the truth of my experience with anyone who will listen.
> He planned to resell my puppy to a pet home. He thinks she can live in a pet home with no further problems. I know that's likely not the case. Even as a couch potato, she may experience lameness, arthritis and pain, which could require surgery.
> My puppy was evaluated and diagnosed at the Purdue Vet Teaching Hospital, and I suggested the research project to the Purdue Canine Genetics Research Lab. All the other puppies in the litter, with and without the deformity, are participating, as are the owners of both the dam and sire. With full participation, I'm hoping maybe they'll learn something. I work in research at Purdue, so I'm really excited about being part of research that could lead to a tool that could be used to avoid this in the future.


I mentioned in my earlier post here that as far as I am concerned this breeder has already done a grave disservice to his reputation by not owning up to the fact that he produced this issue, even if unknown before in the lines, and working with you for a mutual solution. And I said I will never refer anyone to this kennel and will not hesitate to say why since I often get asked for breeder recommendations. For what it's worth, I was at agility trials this weekend as I often am and told your story to a number of people. The majority of people at trials have purebreds that they get from breeders. Every single one of them was appalled by the way this breeder has handled the issue.


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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

I want to sincerely thank everyone who has posted a comment, suggestion or information on this thread. I truly appreciate your responses, whether you agree with my point of view or not. The support has been really touching and encouraging. Please continue to post and share my experience. 

I've never said this breeder is a bad dog breeder and I won't ever say that. But if you buy a puppy from him you need to know where his support will end. I paid $2500 for a puppy, have spend $1000 on diagnostics and exams, and could have much larger vet bills in my future to keep her comfortable and mobile. (The estimate for surgery is up to $4000 per leg.) 

There were 5 puppies in this litter. Two females; three males. Three puppies were affected, which is 60% of the litter. Way more than the 25% expected if it's recessive and needing two copies to express. Both females are affected and one of the males, so it doesn't appear to be sex linked.

I'm in the process of pulling all the documents together to submit to the Poodle Health Registry. I emailed them to ask a question about documents and was answered within a couple hours. I wasn't sure how active this registry was, but I've found them to be very responsive, interested and concerned. 

There was a suggestion that I find another home for my puppy to clear the way to purchase another puppy for agility. I truly appreciate the caring suggestion, but I've decided to see my puppy through this health issue, providing her with the best care I can. She has exhibited a slight limp in the past few days, so the necessity for care may come sooner than I'd expected. I'm also looking for another puppy. There is room in my house for another puppy, though I will be much more careful when choosing my next breeder. Fortunately, I'm finding there are MANY breeders who do all the health testing, use DNA technology to choose breeding pairs, have great puppy rearing protocols, evaluate each puppy for placement in the right home, AND provide support in the way of refunds or replacement when something goes wrong. And they don't demand the puppy be returned after you've learned to love it. I'll choose one of those breeders for my next puppy.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

This is heartbreaking. I am simply at a loss.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Best wishes, Deb. I'm glad you can do both, keep her without feeling that you lost your dream, _and_ find a great agility puppy to make that dream come true. 

I know you love poodles as we all do, but I keep reading how Aussies are next to none when it comes to agility and they're extremely smart too. Their needs are a bit different, i.e. requires _lots_ of exercise, and I have no idea how that would work for you. Since you have one poodle, another breed might be kind of cool and fun, with each bringing something to the table; then again, I don't know much about their temperament beyond the high energy level and they get bored easily if they aren't kept busy, probably b/c they were originally bred to be herding dogs. 

Just a thought, and whatever you do, know that we're here for you.

Vita


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## Charleeann67:) (Nov 6, 2017)

Excellent information! Thank you!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Deb I am not surprised at all that you are keeping this very sweet looking girl. I only wish more people would commit fully to the life of such a pup for its full life. It struck me from the beginning that you are committed to her. I am also very happy for you that you are looking for a new pup and hope that baby (and I hope you stick with a spoo, they are just too awesome and versatile in their talents) is all you dream for, including being a great agility partner.


As to the litter having 60% affected dogs when we look at phenotypes with simple Mendelian type inheritance the prediction that 25% of individuals of particular parents carrying an autosomal recessive is just that, a prediction. The sample size of five pups is simply too small to match the prediction. This litter clearly just had a bad run of luck, but hopefully your work will help researchers to find the gene and develop a test that will make it easy for responsible breeders to test for carriers (who then should not be used for breeding IMO).


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## jojogal001 (Feb 19, 2019)

I think it’s awesome you’re keeping her. I think people who would say to rehome her after having her for so long... I just think that says a lot about that person. 

I know your dream is to get a poodle and do agility with it. I’m so happy to hear you’re able to do both things. I’m confident you will find a breeder with more support for you in the case of genetic maladies. Poodles may not be the best (at times) in agility but I certainly understand how they could be the most fun and a great experience to train and run with. 

My best wishes are with you. I’d love to hear about your search and accomplishment in finding another puppy!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

jojogal001 said:


> I think it’s awesome you’re keeping her. I think people who would say to rehome her after having her for so long... I just think that says a lot about that person.
> 
> I know your dream is to get a poodle and do agility with it. I’m so happy to hear you’re able to do both things. I’m confident you will find a breeder with more support for you in the case of genetic maladies. Poodles may not be the best (at times) in agility but I certainly understand how they could be the most fun and a great experience to train and run with.
> 
> My best wishes are with you. I’d love to hear about your search and accomplishment in finding another puppy!


I'm sure the suggestion of rehoming was meant only to show support, if that was something the OP was having to consider but was reluctant to write of. The OP had indicated that agility was a prime reason for adding this pup to their family. The focus was all on the pup's condition and the breeder's disinclination to step up. 

Rehoming has come up here at PF often enough, usually due to conflicts between dogs, or dog and family, but I remember at least one member who wrote that they had considered euthanizing their pet due to what turned out to be (at last report) an easily managed health issue. They only found that out after surrendering their pet to a shelter, and the shelters vet gave a completely different medical opinion.

I'm not suggesting second opinions here nor surrendering her pet, just noting that rehoming a pup due to physical issues has come up before and was supported by members of PF.


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Thank you for posting your experience with this breeder as a cautionary tale, and thank you for committing to the life of this adorable puppy. 

I believe there are instances in which rehoming is the best option, but IMO it should be the very last option. I think we underestimate the effect it has on the dog- it’s traumatic. Most move on, just like we do after experiencing a great loss, but some do not, and have long lasting problems like separation anxiety.

Let us know how things are going with this sweet boy!


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm sorry you're going through this. I'm glad for the puppy's sake that you're going to stick with her.

This is difficult for me to talk about because I take my dogs very seriously. I've never bred a litter of Poodles but I had a litter that everything went wrong. Unfortunately we didn't know until my pups had all gone home except 3. Devastating to me. My husband brought the dam of the litter home from the university with the news & yes, it had high potential to affect the puppies. The vets advised we 'wait & see' but I knew, the folks who bought my pups did so & were falling in love with them. No way could I wait & see. I called immediately, followed up by the information in writing & refund checks for half the purchase prices (from pet to performance, working prospects). My contract did NOT cover this issue but I did. I am a member of some very old school breeder ethics. I don't need a piece of paper to hold me to do the right thing. I got a check back shredded & a note telling me I would be notified if anything happened but his puppy was not ill. I had a performance prospect that we agreed upon $500 for the puppy & a refund of the rest & I was not responsible for anything beyond (that was with me arguing that I should just refund the whole thing, the buyer didn't feel that was fair).  I grieved this litter for a very long time & still feel horrible but person after person told me they knew it wasn't my fault. Basically I did for my puppy buyers what was NEVER done for me. I have had several dogs that I've purchased that had genetic defects WITH contracts that still weren't honored. I never wanted anyone to look back on our deal & feel they were cheated. 

Having said that, yes it was a mess but I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't done the right thing by my people. That was a very expensive experience but I would have paid double if the genetic defect would have gone away. When I buy a puppy, I rarely have high expectations from the breeder because of the experiences I've had. Even with a contract there have been several I would have had to fight in court & the cost would have been greater than what damages would have been paid. Having said that, when I do meet a breeder who really truly puts the time & care into their pups AFTER they go to their new homes, I treat them like the royalty that they are. My Giant came from such a breeder. My old Malinois came from such a breeder. Mr. Layne's breeder is falling into that category. They keep up with how he's developing, what I like & what difficulties we discover, etc... Breeders like this are a rare breed in deed.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

dogsavvy said:


> ... I am a member of some very old school breeder ethics. I don't need a piece of paper to hold me to do the right thing...


Dogsavvy, that's an amazing story, and horrible too. I have so much respect for how you handled this and would have done no less.

In my values, this isn't even about being an ethical breeder, it transcends to being an across the board ethical person. At my age I don't know what the heck happened to so many people in general, from the top to the bottom tiers of society where so many are only out for themselves. 

If you don't mind sharing, what's the breed and name of the genetic disease they inherited since at least one showed signs of it as a puppy, and out of the litter, how many were genetically affected? Just curious since reading up on dog genetics is interesting to me. 



dogsavvy said:


> ...When I buy a puppy, I rarely have high expectations from the breeder because of the experiences I've had. Even with a contract there have been several I would have had to fight in court & the cost would have been greater than what damages would have been paid. Having said that, when I do meet a breeder who really truly puts the time & care into their pups AFTER they go to their new homes, I treat them like the royalty that they are...


Yes, it's buyer beware out there for sure. I talked to so many before I found Bella that once I learned to ask very targeted questions, I was pretty surprised at the answers, behavior or attempts in hiding test results of genetic problems from a few well known show breeders. One standout memory was a breeder who said the doesn't microchip any of her dogs and "couldn't find all the test results". _Now ain't that convenient_, I thought, for her, if anyone wanted to be sure of the paternity and if results of her sires and dams were clear of genetic conditions. 

On the hand I've met some excellent and ethical breeders, and yes, they are the royalty of the breeders.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

dogsavvy, you said "I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't done the right thing by my people".

If everyone in the world did this there would be world peace. Thank you, you have made me so grateful to know you, you have made not only my day, but my year.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

kontiki said:


> dogsavvy, you said "I couldn't live with myself if I hadn't done the right thing by my people".
> 
> If everyone in the world did this there would be world peace. Thank you, you have made me so grateful to know you, you have made not only my day, but my year.


Amen!


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## dogsavvy (Mar 6, 2015)

Vita asked "If you don't mind sharing, what's the breed and name of the genetic disease they inherited since at least one showed signs of it as a puppy, and out of the litter, how many were genetically affected? Just curious since reading up on dog genetics is interesting to me."


Dobermans. Out of a litter of 9, all were affected to some degree but one. That one pup was seemingly totally unaffected by the problem. He was neutered so no issue with him reproducing & putting others at risk. A couple of the puppies had issues as puppies but over came those issues to live full lives, the rest were put down at the discretion of their owners & their vets. So we'll never know if they would have overcome the issue. One of the remaining three was put down due to cancer before age three but that pup had a lot of issues leading up to that.

kontiki,

I'm humbled at your words. It's my parents' & grandparents' fault. They raised me to do the right thing no matter how it looks, what's popular, or whatever. I've seen them live by it & so do I. I'm sad for the original poster for this situation because how different it could have been with a breeder who didn't HAVE to do the right thing but if he would have chosen to? It's maddening but the way the world turns these days. I'll stay an old relic.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Dogsavvy, 8 of the 9 puppies, that's so horribly sad. I remember how excited I was when Bella was pregnant only for the first one to be born breach and DOA, followed by the second one coming hours later and also DOA. 

There's nothing quite so thrilling as expecting everything to go right, then suddenly, horribly wrong. You were a perfect gentleman to your buyers thru it all, but I understand the sorrow.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

Deb said:


> I have two dogs from this breeder and, until this problem, I would have sworn he's a great breeder. I would still be saying that if a problem hadn't occurred. He was concerned initially, but as the facts were discovered he quickly dug in and declared he'd done nothing wrong and owed his buyers nothing.
> 
> He's correct that he didn't do anything wrong. There is no test for this condition and both the dam and sire had been bred to other dogs before with no problems. This was just an unlucky pairing of two carrier dogs. The sire is a Valentine dog; he'll never be bred again. His owner is devastated.
> 
> ...


My heart goes out to you. I had a pup who was taken to the vet within an hour of being purchased. Vet stated she had serious concerns about the pup,s condition , describing him as undersized, underweight, not thriving and also suspected of having parasites. A serious worm infestation was later confirmed with stool tests. The breeder had assured me that the pup was registered for medical coverage and gave me the form with the number and the tag for his collar. After quite a few vet bills imagine my dismay when the invoices submitted were all rejected by the medical insurance company due to no policy paid for, and the breeder admitted she "was busy and forgot to send it in". Since the pup now had a record of issues, the insurance company refused future coverage! Because he then had a "record", we have never been able to insure him and all costs are paid by us. The breeder backpedalled at a tremendous rate, claimed I had somehow "damaged" the pup in the one hour he spent in a crate being transported directly to the vet office from her kennel. I got the support of my vet and with threats to go public with my story got 50 % of the first batch of vet bills refunded by the breeder, but am out hundreds of dollars since. We parted on very bad terms and I refuse to give her kennel any referrals. 

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Charlie's Person: that's outrageous.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Charlie's Person said:


> My heart goes out to you. I had a pup who was taken to the vet within an hour of being purchased. Vet stated she had serious concerns about the pup,s condition , describing him as undersized, underweight, not thriving and also suspected of having parasites. A serious worm infestation was later confirmed with stool tests. The breeder had assured me that the pup was registered for medical coverage and gave me the form with the number and the tag for his collar. After quite a few vet bills imagine my dismay when the invoices submitted were all rejected by the medical insurance company due to no policy paid for, and the breeder admitted she "was busy and forgot to send it in". Since the pup now had a record of issues, the insurance company refused future coverage! Because he then had a "record", we have never been able to insure him and all costs are paid by us. The breeder backpedalled at a tremendous rate, claimed I had somehow "damaged" the pup in the one hour he spent in a crate being transported directly to the vet office from her kennel. I got the support of my vet and with threats to go public with my story got 50 % of the first batch of vet bills refunded by the breeder, but am out hundreds of dollars since. We parted on very bad terms and I refuse to give her kennel any referrals.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


Please warn us who this is. My heart goes out to you, and to your pup.


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

kontiki said:


> Please warn us who this is. My heart goes out to you, and to your pup.


The pup did turn into a sweet natured dog, he does, however, have serious food and environmental allergies. Since we could not get insurance coverage for him, all of the associated costs for this have also been straight out of pocket for us. 
The kennel was "Isle of Poodles" , London, Ontario Canada

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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

It is so important that we let each other know so that we can be knowledgeable in choosing our healthiest pup! Thank you. 
And blessings for loving and caring for your dog in spite of the problems...


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## Charlie's Person (Dec 9, 2018)

kontiki said:


> It is so important that we let each other know so that we can be knowledgeable in choosing our healthiest pup! Thank you.
> And blessings for loving and caring for your dog in spite of the problems...


He also had high pressure buildup in one eye. A vigilant vet caught and treated it, seems ok now. Would have been nice to have insurance for that one! But we adore our Charlie boy, he can spend every day with us because we are retired and much of our day is spent entertaining the Poodle

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## Deb (Sep 8, 2011)

Charlie’s Person, I’m so sorry you & your pup are going through this! It really is a life altering situation! Charlie is lucky to be loved by you.

My pup, Phoenix, had a few days of limping a couple weeks ago, but it resolved on its own and she’s fine now. But, it reminded me that I will always be on-watch for symptoms that could indicate a progression of her condition and possibly the need for surgical correction, which carries its own consequences. 

I’ve tried to be very careful and truthful in what I post about her breeder. I am not indiscriminately bashing him or his dogs. In his last email he threatened to sue me for defamation. I’m not worried about that since I’ve only shared the truth and, last time I checked, I’m allowed to formulate an opinion based on those facts. I think his threat indicates more about his character and should serve as a further caution to those who might consider buying a puppy from him. No breeder can prevent every unfortunate outcome and no contract can cover every issue. The true measure of character is how you choose to behave when a contract isn’t dictating your actions. This breeder has chosen to turn his back on 3 puppies and their buyers, keeping our total of $7500 in his pocket, while berating me for my “moralistic emails”. I think that speaks for itself. In my opinion.


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## Dogs4Life (May 27, 2018)

I am sorry this happened to you Deb and Charlie's Person. People who find good breeders and end up with healthy puppies/dogs truly are fortunately. 

One way a person can protect themselves against legal action would be to name the breeder's region and provide the specifics as to what happened, but leave out the exact location and breeder's name. In the past, a member asked people on the board to PM her if they wanted to know the name of the bad breeder. This might be something to consider if a breeder is threatening legal action. But I agree that people have a right to know which breeders are abandoning their puppies with ill health (when it is the breeder's fault) and not supporting their customers. 

Thank you for continuing to care for these precious pups.


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## joedesimone (Mar 15, 2019)

Deb said:


> Charlie’s Person, I’m so sorry you & your pup are going through this! It really is a life altering situation! Charlie is lucky to be loved by you.
> 
> My pup, Phoenix, had a few days of limping a couple weeks ago, but it resolved on its own and she’s fine now. But, it reminded me that I will always be on-watch for symptoms that could indicate a progression of her condition and possibly the need for surgical correction, which carries its own consequences.
> 
> I’ve tried to be very careful and truthful in what I post about her breeder. I am not indiscriminately bashing him or his dogs. In his last email he threatened to sue me for defamation. I’m not worried about that since I’ve only shared the truth and, last time I checked, I’m allowed to formulate an opinion based on those facts. I think his threat indicates more about his character and should serve as a further caution to those who might consider buying a puppy from him. No breeder can prevent every unfortunate outcome and no contract can cover every issue. The true measure of character is how you choose to behave when a contract isn’t dictating your actions. This breeder has chosen to turn his back on 3 puppies and their buyers, keeping our total of $7500 in his pocket, while berating me for my “moralistic emails”. I think that speaks for itself. In my opinion.


Good for you Deb. One way or another - i.e., Google, the BBB, yelp, etc., - get your breeder's name out there, as I have done with the neurosurgeon who killed Ricky and charged me $18K anyway. Report him to the AKC and your state's attorney general. Apparently dealing in live animals that the buyer gets bonded to almost immediately is just a business to these people, and not giving a refund or appropriate remuneration for a bad 'product' is within the rights of these unethical people.


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## peppersb (Jun 5, 2011)

*Sorry to disagree...*

Deb -- I appreciate the way you have tried to represent the facts accurately. But I just don't think that the facts justify your accusations. I think you are treating this breeder unfairly.

You said: "The contract has a genetic disease clause for a couple specific conditions. This condition wasn't named, probably because it was a completely unexpected problem." I don't think that any puppy buyer has a right to assume that a puppy will be free of serious illnesses. That's a risk that you take when you buy a dog. This is especially true in this case where your contract had a genetic disease clause that covered specific diseases -- and not this one. The idea that you would have a right to unilaterally expand the health guarantee, when the terms of the health guarantee were specifically defined in your contract just does not seem fair to me. 

You said: "I'm not blaming my breeder for her bone deformity. He couldn't have prevented or predicted it." The breeder's web site says that all breeding dogs have health testing including, DNA testing, a CHIC number and pedigree research. That's certainly a sign of a good breeder. You also say: "He has very nice dogs and has a nice puppy rearing protocol." Another sign of a good breeder. Based on what you have said, I would be very interested in purchasing a puppy from this breeder. Yet you are trying to harm their reputation. That just does not seem right.

My advice to any puppy buyer is this: When you buy a dog, it becomes yours and you are responsible for medical or other issues that you may encounter. You can significantly reduce the likelihood of having health issues by getting a puppy from a reputable breeder who does health testing, DNA testing and careful pedigree research. But you cannot eliminate all risks. Personally, I think that health testing, DNA testing, and pedigree research are more important than health guarantees. If you want a guarantee, talk to your breeder about what is covered and what is not covered, and read the contract. Most of the health guarantees that I have seen do not cover very much. In my opinion, it is unfair to the breeder to expect that they will do more for you than what is specified in the contract. 

Based on what has been said here, and a quick review of the web site, I think Gladystar looks like a very good breeder. I have no personal knowledge of them, but I would definitely consider them if I was looking for a puppy in their area.


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## Eclipse (Apr 26, 2010)

peppersb said:


> Deb -- I appreciate the way you have tried to represent the facts accurately. But I just don't think that the facts justify your accusations. I think you are treating this breeder unfairly.
> 
> You said: "The contract has a genetic disease clause for a couple specific conditions. This condition wasn't named, probably because it was a completely unexpected problem." I don't think that any puppy buyer has a right to assume that a puppy will be free of serious illnesses. That's a risk that you take when you buy a dog. This is especially true in this case where your contract had a genetic disease clause that covered specific diseases -- and not this one. The idea that you would have a right to unilaterally expand the health guarantee, when the terms of the health guarantee were specifically defined in your contract just does not seem fair to me.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree a breeder can't guarantee against every genetic defect that could crop up in a dog. But the way in which a breeder responds to an issue that crops up is also telling. I totally don't agree with the response of the breeder in question here and based on that, will put them on my list of breeders I would tell people to "steer clear" of as well. I show very frequently and am constantly around people who get their dogs of all breeds from high-level breeders. I have told this story to a number of people (without mentioning the name of the breeder) and without exception, did not find 1 person who agreed with the response of this breeder or would recommend them to anyone. 3 pups in the litter were affected, which I believe was the majority of the litter. In my opinion, he should have at least refunded the full purchase price of the affected pups without making it a condition that the pup was returned. 

Yes, when you buy a dog you assume all costs for raising it, which of course includes vet care. But if you are going to have unexpected and expensive costs due to a genetic defect right from the beginning of the dog's life, whether guaranteed in the contract or not, the very least the breeder can do is refund the purchase price. This breeder seems more worried about the issue getting out than about the issue his bitch has produced and the future quality of life of these puppies he has bred. I believe he was even planning to breed her again - I stand corrected if he is not. The plain fact is his bitch (and the stud) have produced pups with this severe genetic issue - it's not minor, the future health and comfort of the dogs for their entire lives is questionable, even with surgery. So he can threaten legal action for the OP talking about it, but he has no standing to sue based on her just stating the facts of the matter. It's not like she made up the diagnosis, said he didn't refund the purchase price of the puppy when he did, etc. 

I also think the issue should be reported on the poodle health database as well and I hope the OP does so. This way someone else doing research on breeders in future will have valuable information to base their choices on. Just like I might choose to avoid a certain breeder if multiple cases of bloat or dogs with HD, or other genetic issues cropped up repeatedly in their line. FYI, It also seems to me, from what the OP posted, that the stud owner seemed much more responsible and concerned about what her dog had produced.


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