# Popular colour question...



## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Which colour is most popular in the show ring right now? 

Just curious... if two poodles are equivalent in soundness and structure, will one win over the other because of colour?

Which are the least favourite colours?

Salukie


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Don't quote me on this, but I think black and white are equal together as the most popular.

I think next would be silver, then cream, apricot, brown/red.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

There are some judges who prefer one color over another. It is an individual thing. Overall, Blacks and White/Creams do the best in the ring because they are of the best over-all quality.


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## thestars (May 2, 2009)

cbrand said:


> There are some judges who prefer one color over another. It is an individual thing. Overall, Blacks and White/Creams do the best in the ring because they are of the best over-all quality.


There are probably more of the Blacks and whites/creams available. Recessive colors like apricots, reds and browns have less overall numbers then blacks and whites.


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## Salukie (Dec 18, 2009)

Thanks guys!


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

thestars said:


> There are probably more of the Blacks and whites/creams available. Recessive colors like apricots, reds and browns have less overall numbers then blacks and whites.


Interesting because I have been REALLY spending some time looking at this recently, just for informational only at this time and the whites (good ones) seem to be more scarce then the reds, browns, silvers. Maybe this is also why they are priced higher too.

Edit - ok it mentioned in the ring.... I would think there would be more quality breeders with white.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Interesting because I have been REALLY spending some time looking at this recently, just for informational only at this time and the whites (good ones) seem to be more scarce then the reds, browns, silvers. Maybe this is also why they are priced higher too.


There are loads of red breeders, but not many are producing quality puppies

There is a much higher number of white breeders who have a clue what they are doing, thus many more quality whites than reds. Same with blacks. They have a much bigger gene pool to pull from and the quality has been there for some time. There seem to be a lot more breeders in blacks and whites who are in it for the right reasons, and too many red and possibly brown breeders doing it because they are rarer and they can charge big bucks for them.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There are loads of red breeders, but not many are producing quality puppies
> 
> There is a much higher number of white breeders who have a clue what they are doing, thus many more quality whites than reds. Same with blacks. They have a much bigger gene pool to pull from and the quality has been there for some time. There seem to be a lot more breeders in blacks and whites who are in it for the right reasons, and too many red and possibly brown breeders doing it because they are rarer and they can charge big bucks for them.


Thank God for red breeders like you!!! I agree with you on this....makes sense.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Olie said:


> Thank God for red breeders like you!!! I agree with you on this....makes sense.


I wish people knew how sincere I am when I say this: I have been involved with this glorious breed since I was seven years old. I have been involved in this colour for about six years. I know the quality is not the same as in the blacks and whites because we used to breed blacks (with the rare litter with whites in them). The blacks and whites have far superior conformation...better heads, better tail sets, squarer bodies, nicer angulation as a general rule. But by God, I want to see it there one day!! I will do my part, breeding to the dogs I think are the best quality, and hopefully others will too. Maybe one day we can open up this tiny gene pool with better quality red Spoos and improve them to the point where we will be respected for what we are doing and producing dogs that are at the caliber the blacks and whites are at today. There is the very rare red Standard Poodle today that could compete with its black and white cousins and have a chance in heck of beating them in the ring, but they are few and far between. There are likely about ten in the entire world that are in the same category as their cousins. But when I see the conformation of Lucy and Brandi, and the remarkable colour,top lines, heads and tail sets on Betty-Jo and Jenny, I KNOW I am not wasting my time, and look to the future with a little despair (because there are so many BYB's in reds) but also a lot of hope and excitement. If we could transfer the colour of our dogs onto the bodies of the blacks or whites, well, that would be a happy day. But it is going to take a ton of work and some puppies who may not be the colour we breed to begin making a difference.

Edited to say that because of all of this, the most popular colours in the show ring would be black and white. A much bigger number of dogs in those colours with conformation worthy of a win, so people are more inclined to show them. A bigger variety of breeders who are doing it right and for the right reasons too.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

On average, I meet about a person a day who says they've never seen an apricot poodle. And almost all of them say that they love the color.

Keep up the good work, Arreau!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Marian said:


> On average, I meet about a person a day who says they've never seen an apricot poodle. And almost all of them say that they love the color.
> 
> Keep up the good work, Arreau!


Really? I have to say that apricot is the most common poodle color we see in the salon I work at, even.. four apricot standards come in.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Seriously. I'm talking about out on the street, and not in a salon setting like you have, where people are bringing poodles to you.


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Lol when you're out on the street people look at poodles like they're some sort of exotic animal! They sure get heads turning!


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

LOL....I had someone tell me they had never seen a black poodle before. Really!?!!?! It just seems like they are everywhere. I know I keep an extra eye out for them though, and glad she was able to see something new.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

My brother has one of Holly's daughters and she is light red. Two women were walking past the car and stopped when seeing her to talk. One of them told my sister-in-law she needed to complain to the breeder because the breeder sold them an Afgan and only told them it was a Poodle!! My S-I-L said she was pretty sure she was safe because she got the dog from me, and the woman was mortified saying bad enough to be duped by a breeder, but a breeder who is your sister-in-law. My brother called me laughing his fool head off. I guess they just thought all Poos were black or white.


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## Harley_chik (Nov 7, 2008)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My brother has one of Holly's daughters and she is light red. Two women were walking past the car and stopped when seeing her to talk. One of them told my sister-in-law she needed to complain to the breeder because the breeder sold them an Afgan and only told them it was a Poodle!! My S-I-L said she was pretty sure she was safe because she got the dog from me, and the woman was mortified saying bad enough to be duped by a breeder, but a breeder who is your sister-in-law. My brother called me laughing his fool head off. I guess they just thought all Poos were black or white.


Don't you just love self proclaimed experts!?! LMAO!


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## BFF (Jun 10, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My brother has one of Holly's daughters and she is light red. Two women were walking past the car and stopped when seeing her to talk. One of them told my sister-in-law she needed to complain to the breeder because the breeder sold them an Afgan and only told them it was a Poodle!! My S-I-L said she was pretty sure she was safe because she got the dog from me, and the woman was mortified saying bad enough to be duped by a breeder, but a breeder who is your sister-in-law. My brother called me laughing his fool head off. I guess they just thought all Poos were black or white.


Now That's Funny!!!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My brother has one of Holly's daughters and she is light red. Two women were walking past the car and stopped when seeing her to talk. One of them told my sister-in-law she needed to complain to the breeder because the breeder sold them an Afgan and only told them it was a Poodle!! My S-I-L said she was pretty sure she was safe because she got the dog from me, and the woman was mortified saying bad enough to be duped by a breeder, but a breeder who is your sister-in-law. My brother called me laughing his fool head off. I guess they just thought all Poos were black or white.


You can't fail harder then that!


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> My brother has one of Holly's daughters and she is light red. Two women were walking past the car and stopped when seeing her to talk. One of them told my sister-in-law she needed to complain to the breeder because the breeder sold them an Afgan and only told them it was a Poodle!! My S-I-L said she was pretty sure she was safe because she got the dog from me, and the woman was mortified saying bad enough to be duped by a breeder, but a breeder who is your sister-in-law. My brother called me laughing his fool head off. I guess they just thought all Poos were black or white.


ound:

OMG that is too funny!

How one can even get an afghan and a poodle mix up in the first place???
Afghans have long tails that curl with little hair on it
and Poodles usually will have short tails with a small puff on it 

And the coat difference???

Self Proclaimed experts are soo funny, but can be so frustratingly ignorant at times, that make you want to just want to scream!!!!!


ETA:

I stand corrected 









This is a picture of a Standard Poodle that "looks" like an afghan


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Are you sure that's a poodle, jak? o_o The tail is VERY afgan like! Or did you mean to say an Afgan that looks like a standard? x)


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## jak (Aug 15, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> Are you sure that's a poodle, jak? o_o The tail is VERY afgan like! Or did you mean to say an *Afgan that looks like a standard? *x)


Ya got me! :biggrin:


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

jak said:


> Ya got me! :biggrin:


Oh okay xD I gotcha! You dorkface


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

Fluffyspoos said:


> You can't fail harder then that!



How do these people that cant tell what a poodle is even know what an AFGHAN is? 


We get people trying to guess what the borzoi are all the time.... my poodles are pretty poodley so I guess thats not too hard for them. 

so far the Borzoi have been called 

Whippets
Greyhounds
Longhaired Greyhounds
Afghanis (yeah you're reading it right, thats what the guy said) 
Afghan hounds


Other people have said that their Borzoi have been called everything from different dog breeds to goats!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

I have heard the long haired Whippet thing for Borzoi. Ridiculous. Maybe these women knew someone with an Afghan, so now anything who has a long fine muzzle, with coat colour even remotely similar must be what they know.

Jak, that photo is great. If we can make Poodles look like My Little Pony, and camels, I guess we can make them look like and afghan, and vice versa. Thank goodness my brother's girl wasn't groomed like that or I mught have been accused of being a horse breeder!!


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## BigEdLB (Oct 16, 2009)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> There are loads of red breeders, but not many are producing quality puppies
> 
> There is a much higher number of white breeders who have a clue what they are doing, thus many more quality whites than reds. Same with blacks. They have a much bigger gene pool to pull from and the quality has been there for some time. There seem to be a lot more breeders in blacks and whites who are in it for the right reasons, and too many red and possibly brown breeders doing it because they are rarer and they can charge big bucks for them.


I would ask about this : Breed a white/cream with a superior body structure with a red with above average structure, both having a COI of about 1%, and combined under that number. Also good genetics, e.g. CERF eyes, OFA hips... Would that increase the possibility of a red puppy with more of a show potential, and lower chance of genetic problems?

My understanding is white is recessive... So the non-white color would trump the white.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

BigEdLB said:


> I would ask about this : Breed a white/cream with a superior body structure with a red with above average structure, both having a COI of about 1%, and combined under that number. Also good genetics, e.g. CERF eyes, OFA hips... Would that increase the possibility of a red puppy with more of a show potential, and lower chance of genetic problems?
> 
> My understanding is white is recessive... So the non-white color would trump the white.


You would get some nice apricots ( depending on how dark the red is or if it faded badly) and a lot of cremes but no reds


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

BigEdLB said:


> I would ask about this : Breed a white/cream with a superior body structure with a red with above average structure, both having a COI of about 1%, and combined under that number. Also good genetics, e.g. CERF eyes, OFA hips... Would that increase the possibility of a red puppy with more of a show potential, and lower chance of genetic problems?
> 
> My understanding is white is recessive... So the non-white color would trump the white.


This is assuming that the breeding dog is true white and not just a lightened up Cream. There are true White puppies. They are born ice white with no trace of cream coloring on the ears or down the back. In my experience, breeding to one of these true whites actually sees to intensify color. (i.e. you can breed a Black to them and your Blacks stay black. 

Creams on the other hand have the fading gene (like in a Silver). They are born darker and lighten as they get older to the point where people often call them White. Breeding a Cream to a Red would most likely get you puppies that fade to Apricot or even dark Cream.

Why this is a problem I don't know. I guess it is because for the average puppy buyer, all they see is "color". Personally, even when the the color is good I can't get past things like ugly heads, narrow chests, short necks and total lack of correct movement and carriage. :wacko:


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## KPoos (Aug 29, 2009)

Would you also get lighter points on the apricots or would they still have dark noses and eyes?


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

KPoos said:


> Would you also get lighter points on the apricots or would they still have dark noses and eyes?


Whites, Creams, Apricots and Reds can all have lovely dark pigment and inky black eyes. Assuming that both breeding dogs have good pigment, there is no reason that a Red -> Cream breeding wouldn't produce good pigment.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

Teddy is a red to cream offspring. He is a lot darker at this age than my first poodle was (he was from a light apricot to light apricot).

I hope Teddy stays the color he is now and I hope his nose goes back to black after the winter.


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## BigEdLB (Oct 16, 2009)

*Colors*



roxy25 said:


> You would get some nice apricots ( depending on how dark the red is or if it faded badly) and a lot of cremes but no reds


Rufus, my avitar, is the same color as his father. His mother is snow white. No fading.


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## Marian (Oct 20, 2009)

He's pretty, BigEdLB.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Why this is a problem I don't know. I guess it is because for the average puppy buyer, all they see is "color". Personally, even when the the color is good I can't get past things like ugly heads, narrow chests, short necks and total lack of correct movement and carriage. :wacko:


lmao that is true pet buyers never really know what they are getting just color.

When you say true white are these the poodles with the grey skin ?


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

BigEdLB said:


> Rufus, my avitar, is the same color as his father. His mother is snow white. No fading.


I know a breeder who breeds white to his reds and I never seen reds produced. Since white , cream , apricot, and red are the same allele it probably with have a different effect than when breeding a black to a true white.


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## cbrand (Aug 9, 2009)

roxy25 said:


> When you say true white are these the poodles with the grey skin ?


Hummm, not sure. The true White poodles I've seen all have inky black pigment and skin that darkens up beautifully in the sun, so maybe.

I think you can really only tell if a Poodle is true White when they are first born since they are born ice white with no hint of cream. There aren't that many true White lines out there. Some that come to mind that I think would be true White are Whisperwind, Ale Kai, and Unique. 

Perhaps Dagney can weigh in here since she has been around longer.


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## roxy25 (Dec 18, 2008)

cbrand said:


> Hummm, not sure. The true White poodles I've seen all have inky black pigment and skin that darkens up beautifully in the sun, so maybe.
> 
> I think you can really only tell if a Poodle is true White when they are first born since they are born ice white with no hint of cream. There aren't that many true White lines out there. Some that come to mind that I think would be true White are Whisperwind, Ale Kai, and Unique.
> 
> Perhaps Dagney can weigh in here since she has been around longer.


ok it is the grey skins then hahah I always see these grey or should I say dark skin dogs and they are ice white and like you said its rare to see them. 

Whisperwind lines has been bred into reds and no red came out either.


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