# Looking for Toy Breeders



## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

if you do a search here, i believe you will find some comments on both breeders you mentioned. i'm sure others will chime in on these and other breeders known to them.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you. Still learning how to navigate here, lol.


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## lisasgirl (May 27, 2010)

Is there a specific color or purpose you're looking for? Do you care what part of the West Coast? 

Clarion is fantastic from any interaction I've had with or about them. Really nice people and wonderful dogs. You can do a search for them here in the forums and find quite a bit that people have said about them (mostly positive, there's one negative story that I'm aware of). I'd be getting a dog from them for sure except that I have my heart set on a Silver and they don't breed them.

I've also been in touch with Zamora and Sharbelle, who are on opposite ends of California. Both seem to be very nice, lovely people, and I've heard great things about Sharbelle in particular. Their dogs are absolutely gorgeous. There's at least one active user here with a Sharbelle puppy and she gave me lots of great info about them.  You can also do a search. Basically any breeder you find, it's a good idea to do a search on them here (even if they're recommended to you in this thread - past threads can be very enlightening).

Zamora (like, from the looks of things, Ash's-Mystical) is what you'd call a kennel-based or high-volume breeder, and people have strong opinions about whether that's a good environment to get a puppy from or not. It basically means that the dogs are not raised in a home environment, so you'll have to ask lots and lots of questions about socialization and such. I'd also recommend that you go in person and get a very thorough tour of the kennel facilities, as from the outside it can be really hard to tell how humane the conditions are in an operation like this.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Hi lisasgirl, I would like brown or black partly because I'm not fond of the tear stains, even when cleaned daily. I was thinking about agility but I've read so many stories about joint damage, etc. Poodles also concern me because there seem to be so many more breaks in poodles legs vs. a lot of other toy breeds. My 13 yr old yorkie has never had a problem, but I have friends with toys poodles that had breaks. Thank you for the other breeder names and pointers. I would prefer to get a puppy that was home raised also.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi lisasgirl, I would like brown or black partly because I'm not fond of the tear stains, even when cleaned daily. I was thinking about agility but I've read so many stories about joint damage, etc. Poodles also concern me because there seem to be so many more breaks in poodles legs vs. a lot of other toy breeds. My 13 yr old yorkie has never had a problem, but I have friends with toys poodles that had breaks. Thank you for the other breeder names and pointers. I would prefer to get a puppy that was home raised also.



As I understand it there is a fragile period for Toy Poodle legs when they are at high risk, from 8-12 months old. But I have had 7 poodles, and knock wood, never had a break, or any orthopedic problem at all. But they are athletic dogs, so I guess as with any athlete there is always a chance of injury.







As for kennel vs home raised, I understand the inclination to think home raised is best, but I have to tell you that I have had both, and the kennel raised ones that I have had by far had the better temperaments and social skills, not even close. And while my experience is far from statistically significant, it is my feeling that many personality/temperament facets have a genetic basis, and that the larger scale kennel breeders do many more breedings and there bye are able to perfect the temperaments right along with the conformation and health to a much greater degree than a small home based breeder. As long as the kennel is well run, providing a nice, stimulating environment for the puppies, the good breeding that they have will flourish and you will get an exceptional puppy from it.
My Timi was kennel raised, remained with her breeder until she was almost 14 weeks old, and was totally "bombproof" the day that she walked in the door.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ash's Mystical has been a breeding partner with Eriand who produced my mom's mpoo and others whose owners I know. Although the original owner of Eriand has passed away her daughter, who is also an experienced breeder, has taken over for her mom. They collectively have produced some very nice conformation dogs.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

One of my first thoughts with kennels is won't they be used to relieving themselves right where they stand through the bottom of the cage? And with socialization kennel dogs seem to not like being picked up, and frightened of a lot of things. My last pup was from a kennel and the first time my son put on his backpack for school it was awful. Poor thing was terrified. He also couldn't cope when being held and you tried to open a door. He had so many fears at first. He was also snappy. Do you mean they are more socialized when it comes to other dogs? It seems like they wouldn't get as much human contact and playtime outdoors either. I do see your point about working on temperaments and confirmation. Also, isn't the best time to socialize in the 10 to 12 week time period? Sorry for so many questions. So much to learn!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Lily cd re. Thank you. It's so nice to hear that people have dog's from breeders in my area that they were obviously very happy with.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> One of my first thoughts with kennels is won't they be used to relieving themselves right where they stand through the bottom of the cage? And with socialization kennel dogs seem to not like being picked up, and frightened of a lot of things. My last pup was from a kennel and the first time my son put on his backpack for school it was awful. Poor thing was terrified. He also couldn't cope when being held and you tried to open a door. He had so many fears at first. He was also snappy. Do you mean they are more socialized when it comes to other dogs? It seems like they wouldn't get as much human contact and playtime outdoors either. I do see your point about working on temperaments and confirmation. Also, isn't the best time to socialize in the 10 to 12 week time period? Sorry for so many questions. So much to learn!



I did say a well run kennel ?
My breeder moves the puppies from the nursery to her trim room at 8 weeks old. There they are interacting with grooming customers, delivery people, other dogs, listening to music, hearing hair dryers, clippers, running water, vacuums, etc all day long. She never allows a puppy to leave before 12 weeks, some stay months longer until the right home comes along, and I have never heard of a one of them having social issues. 
Yes, my breeder does use the grates on the bottom of the pens, but there are also large mats and beds in the pens, so I think that the puppies must get the idea that the beds/mats are "home" and to be kept clean and the grates are for potty - then they get home, it is your job to expand their idea of what "home" to be kept clean is. I have not had any problem with that issue at all - neither almost 14 year old Teaka nor 2 year old Timi ( both from the same kennel) has had an accident since the first week that they arrived.
And you know, you cannot assume that because a puppy is home raised that the breeder is spending tons of time with them and that they are getting to meet lots of people and experience different things. A home breeder may have a full time job outside the house that keeps them away ten hours a day. They might have kids with activities that they have to chauffeur them around to on the weekends. The puppies may be penned in one room and never see or experience the goings on in the household.
But a kennel breeder - raising puppies is their full time vocation - they are with their dogs 16 hours a day 7 days a week. They have spent decades learning about breeding and raising dogs - their primary concern in life is doing that one thing well, and they are well aware of the activities and experiences that a puppy needs to have to grow healthy, of sound mind and body - consider that doing it in a large kennel specifically designed for that purpose just might be more successful than being stuck in a spare bedroom or in the corner of a kitchen!
I still remember the first time that I vacuumed after Timi came home - my jaw dropped - not only did she not react to the noise, she didn't even move from her comfy spot on the floor - even when I pushed the vacuum right up to her nose, she didn't flinch - just cocked her head from side to side in that cute way that they do when they are trying to understand something. You really couldn't ask for a better raised dog, and she was raised in a kennel!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> Lily cd re. Thank you. It's so nice to hear that people have dog's from breeders in my area that they were obviously very happy with.



So are you close enough to visit? The proof is in the pudding - go and see for yourself, and meet their puppies! I am not close enough to visit my breeder, but have dozens of friends who have, and everyone was pleased with what they saw and the puppies that they got.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

btw, there's also farthing poodles in eatonville wa. breeds mostly blacks, seems to have a good reputation.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

patk said:


> btw, there's also farthing poodles in eatonville wa. breeds mostly blacks, seems to have a good reputation.


And I do love the blacks. Thank you!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi. I've been researching toy breeders in the Western United States but can't seem to find as many as other areas. I'm wondering if any of you may know about Ash's Mystical Poodles or Clarion. It would be great to hear about poodles that came from either. Or about any other toy breeders in the area I'm searching in.
> 
> After researching I know I would like a puppy from a breeder who show's and does full health testing.
> 
> Any suggestions?



Hello from one Oregonian to another! Albany here.

I've heard of both Ash's Mystical Poodles and Clarion, but have not talked with either. I haven't gotten a Poodle in many years, so I don't have personal knowledge of either, but I would suggest that you do a lot of research on both, and contact and even visit if that's possible. The main thing is, that you find a breeder that you are 100% happy and comfortable with. Then everything else will fall into place.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi lisasgirl, I would like brown or black partly because I'm not fond of the tear stains, even when cleaned daily. I was thinking about agility but I've read so many stories about joint damage, etc. Poodles also concern me because there seem to be so many more breaks in poodles legs vs. a lot of other toy breeds. My 13 yr old yorkie has never had a problem, but I have friends with toys poodles that had breaks. Thank you for the other breeder names and pointers. I would prefer to get a puppy that was home raised also.


I owned Toys for 37 years, and none of my dogs ever had breaks. Of course all of mine have been the regular size Toys, not the real tiny ones who are just 2 or 3 lbs. If you are a person who loves adventure and outdoor activities, I would recommend that you get a Toy that will be at least 6 or 7 lbs when full grown.

Added note: I also prefer to get a puppy that is home raised. Nothing against kennel breeders, but I want my puppy to be in the home, not in a kennel. It's all a personal choice.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> One of my first thoughts with kennels is won't they be used to relieving themselves right where they stand through the bottom of the cage? And with socialization kennel dogs seem to not like being picked up, and frightened of a lot of things. My last pup was from a kennel and the first time my son put on his backpack for school it was awful. Poor thing was terrified. He also couldn't cope when being held and you tried to open a door. He had so many fears at first. He was also snappy. Do you mean they are more socialized when it comes to other dogs? It seems like they wouldn't get as much human contact and playtime outdoors either. I do see your point about working on temperaments and confirmation. Also, isn't the best time to socialize in the 10 to 12 week time period? Sorry for so many questions. So much to learn!



I totally agree with you, and yes socialization is very important during that time period. That's also the time when puppies go to their permanent homes.

BTW, you're doing great! You know a lot more than you think you do!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> I totally agree with you, and yes socialization is very important during that time period. That's also the time when puppies go to their permanent homes.
> 
> BTW, you're doing great! You know a lot more than you think you do!


Hi Kathy! Thank you. I'm reading and researching all I can. I had no idea what I was in for when we got our yorkie (love him dearly) but knew nothing about terriers. And want to make the best possible choice when it comes to a breeder.

37 yrs and no breaks, that's wonderful. I started out wanting somewhere in the 4 lb size mainly because of wrist problems. But I do love the great Oregon outdoors and our guy now is 5 1/2 lbs and it seems like anything smaller might not be sturdy enough. Isn't the average range 6 to 8 lbs or so?


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Same at TinyPoodle, 7 toys from 8 weeks to 3 years when I got them, than God never a broker bone, however, as I posted earlier, I never let them jump on and off of furniture (although come to think of it my 4 pound did until I stopped it) Lived t be 15 to 19.5 years old.

I tell you I think they know they are small mine very quickly were trained to walk behind me or back a little to my right leg.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi Kathy! Thank you. I'm reading and researching all I can. I had no idea what I was in for when we got our yorkie (love him dearly) but knew nothing about terriers. And want to make the best possible choice when it comes to a breeder.
> 
> 37 yrs and no breaks, that's wonderful. I started out wanting somewhere in the 4 lb size mainly because of wrist problems. But I do love the great Oregon outdoors and our guy now is 5 1/2 lbs and it seems like anything smaller might not be sturdy enough. Isn't the average range 6 to 8 lbs or so?


The Toys are up to 10 inches tall at the shoulder and 6 to 9 lbs. Just the right size to go camping and hiking with.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> Hi Kathy! Thank you. I'm reading and researching all I can. I had no idea what I was in for when we got our yorkie (love him dearly) but knew nothing about terriers. And want to make the best possible choice when it comes to a breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> 37 yrs and no breaks, that's wonderful. I started out wanting somewhere in the 4 lb size mainly because of wrist problems. But I do love the great Oregon outdoors and our guy now is 5 1/2 lbs and it seems like anything smaller might not be sturdy enough. Isn't the average range 6 to 8 lbs or so?



An in-size Toy who is well bred with correct proportions, in good lean condition will weigh 51/2 to 6 1/4 pounds. If you want bigger than that you should be looking for an over size toy.
Keep in mind though that because poodles are a very leggy breed, and their coat grows up and out, not down, a 5 1/2 pound Toy will look huge next to a 5 1/2 pound Yorkie or Chi.
This Chi weighed more than Timi, but look how huge Timi looks next to her!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love, my husband and I even took one of our Poodles ( his name was Chipper) backpacking once. He just loved it so much! We set up camp at this beautiful lake, and it was, oh my gosh, soooo breathtaking! The only thing I was worried about was, we had just a small little pup tent ( that's really what it was called), and with the 3 of us sleeping in it, I was worried that I would roll over on Chipper. But I never did. It was only a weekend backpacking trip, but Chipper did great! Otherwise, my hubby and I had taken the dogs on many hikes and camping trips throughout the years. From the Oregon Coast to many of the beautiful National Parks ( Glacier National Park in Montana was absolutely breathtaking). As well as Yosemite, and Yellowstone. Lake Louise in Banff National Park in Alberta Canada was equally beautiful. 

BTW, we passed by Ashland on I-5 coming home from California this past September. 

So yes, if you have a love for that kind of lifestyle, you will do best by getting a sturdy regular size Toy.

Added note: To check with the weight of a Toy Poodle, do a search and it will say 6 to 9 lbs. for a Toy Poodle. But Tiny Poodles is right in the fact that a 8 to 9 lb Poodle would be considered an oversize Toy. STILL a Toy Poodle though.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Added note: To check with the weight of a Toy Poodle, do a search and it will say 6 to 9 lbs. for a Toy Poodle. But Tiny Poodles is right in the fact that a 8 to 9 lb Poodle would be considered an oversize Toy. STILL a Toy Poodle though.


It's not weight that makes them oversize it's heighth anything over 10" is over sized

Funny note when I first start looking into Toy Poodles as my dog of choice height was 10", weight was listed as 8-10lbs


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

twyla said:


> It's not weight that makes them oversize it's heighth anything over 10" is over sized
> 
> Funny note when I first start looking into Toy Poodles as my dog of choice height was 10", weight was listed as 8-10lbs


Thanks for that clarification.

Does anyone know where the term "over sized" came from? I mean, is that really a correct term when speaking about Toy Poodles? Whenever I've gone to The Poodle Club Of America, they speak of only the 3 sizes, Standard, Miniature, and Toy. And then they explain in terms of height.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

I am curious too, my girl Flower is out of mini parents, but she weighs 8 1/2 lbs and 10", her dam was 12" tall 15 lbs her sire was 14" and my Baby was out of toy parents she was 13" tall and 10 lbs


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

In America, if both parents are "toy" poodles then the pup is considered a toy, no matter what size it ends up, even if that pup grows larger than 10". It would not be considered a mini, it would be an "oversized" toy.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

twyla said:


> It's not weight that makes them oversize it's heighth anything over 10" is over sized
> 
> 
> 
> Funny note when I first start looking into Toy Poodles as my dog of choice height was 10", weight was listed as 8-10lbs



You are correct that poodle size goes by height, not weight, however most pet seekers are more interested in the weight, so I was speaking of the average weight for a well bred, well proportioned Toy Poodle of today.
A 10" Toy COULD weigh 8-10 pounds, even more if they have a broad chest, heavy bone, and long back. But that is not what you would get from today's show breeder, which is the kind of breeder that the OP is looking at.
Teaka and Timi are from the same show breeder, 12 years apart, and even they have very different builds. Although both square, and Timi maybe a half inch taller at the withers, Teaka has much more body than Timi - I need two hands to carry Teaka under the chest, but can easily carry Timi with one hand. Even though Timi is only slightly taller at the withers, her legs are at least 2 inches longer than Teaka's and has a much longer neck, giving her the appearance of towering over Teaka, and yet she weighs over a pound less than Teaka!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> An in-size Toy who is well bred with correct proportions, in good lean condition will weigh 51/2 to 6 1/4 pounds. If you want bigger than that you should be looking for an over size toy.
> Keep in mind though that because poodles are a very leggy breed, and their coat grows up and out, not down, a 5 1/2 pound Toy will look huge next to a 5 1/2 pound Yorkie or Chi.
> This Chi weighed more than Timi, but look how huge Timi looks next to her!
> View attachment 313298


Oh my gosh! I would have thought your Timi was much bigger/heavier. My yorkie has longer legs for a yorkie, but yorkies bodies seem a little long to me. If shirts were small enough for him then they would be a little short in length, so a size up to fit length would then be too large around. Poodles seem to be shorter in body with longer legs. It looks like they would be prone to snap and that a little shorter would be sturdier. Are toy's bones as tiny as a yorkies in the legs? My guy's bones are teensy.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> You are correct that poodle size goes by height, not weight, however most pet seekers are more interested in the weight, so I was speaking of the average weight for a well bred, well proportioned Toy Poodle of today.
> A 10" Toy COULD weigh 8-10 pounds, even more if they have a broad chest, heavy bone, and long back. But that is not what you would get from today's show breeder, which is the kind of breeder that the OP is looking at.
> Teaka and Timi are from the same show breeder, 12 years apart, and even they have very different builds. Although both square, and Timi maybe a half inch taller at the withers, Teaka has much more body than Timi - I need two hands to carry Teaka under the chest, but can easily carry Timi with one hand. Even though Timi is only slightly taller at the withers, her legs are at least 2 inches longer than Teaka's and has a much longer neck, giving her the appearance of towering over Teaka, and yet she weighs over a pound less than Teaka!


I spoke with one breeder who said that two dogs could be the same size but one weigh more because one would have a more fragile build and the other a heavier bone structure. But does that mean the heavier one would have a longer back and not have the correct confirmation? Also, what is the OP?


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Puppy Love, my husband and I even took one of our Poodles ( his name was Chipper) backpacking once. He just loved it so much! We set up camp at this beautiful lake, and it was, oh my gosh, soooo breathtaking! The only thing I was worried about was, we had just a small little pup tent ( that's really what it was called), and with the 3 of us sleeping in it, I was worried that I would roll over on Chipper. But I never did. It was only a weekend backpacking trip, but Chipper did great! Otherwise, my hubby and I had taken the dogs on many hikes and camping trips throughout the years. From the Oregon Coast to many of the beautiful National Parks ( Glacier National Park in Montana was absolutely breathtaking). As well as Yosemite, and Yellowstone. Lake Louise in Banff National Park in Alberta Canada was equally beautiful.
> 
> BTW, we passed by Ashland on I-5 coming home from California this past September.
> 
> ...


Sounds like your Chipper was a lucky little dog! Mine won't be going quite so many wonderful places. I envy you! My Yorkie has been quite the adventurer though, one drawback was he didn't like to swim. I so that the poodle we end up with will also enjoy the water. I hear a lot of them do but not all.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> Oh my gosh! I would have thought your Timi was much bigger/heavier. My yorkie has longer legs for a yorkie, but yorkies bodies seem a little long to me. If shirts were small enough for him then they would be a little short in length, so a size up to fit length would then be too large around. Poodles seem to be shorter in body with longer legs. It looks like they would be prone to snap and that a little shorter would be sturdier. Are toy's bones as tiny as a yorkies in the legs? My guy's bones are teensy.



I do think that Yorkies are a bit longer backed breed - many of them that I meet have really short legs though. I have the same problem fitting Timi into clothing though - I think that they are mostly all made to fit like a French Bulldog, not a lean athletic body!
Timi does have long legs, but hard to see in photo's because of the hair and her color, she is also incredibly well muscled - even her front legs have little muscle bulges, and I think that helps a lot to protect the bones! And like I said, I have never had one break a leg, but breeders will tell you that from age 8 months - 12 months is a very high risk time for them. 
Also, if you are concerned with orthopedic health, it is best to wait until after they have a heat to spay. Toy Poodles tend to have a longer growth period and later heat than other toys - and the first heat is the signal for the growth plates to close. Timi was 15 1/2 months when she had her first heat, so you can imagine how the lack of hormones may have impacted her development if she had been spayed at 7-8 months as many people do!
This photo shows her rear muscle a little - it is more impressive in person!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> I spoke with one breeder who said that two dogs could be the same size but one weigh more because one would have a more fragile build and the other a heavier bone structure. But does that mean the heavier one would have a longer back and not have the correct confirmation? Also, what is the OP?



OP means original poster - sorry, I couldn't recall your screen name and it was easier to type OP than to close what I was writing and go back and look?
I think that a heavier bone could account for maybe an extra pound of weight tops. And also, like I explained with Teaka, she is only slightly shorter than Timi at the withers (shoulders), but Timi has a narrow body, and long legs, while Teaka has a much broader chest, but still squarely built, and weighs over a pound more than Timi. Teaka's weight is in her broad chest, not in extra back length - both Teaka and Timi have medium bones I think, but the structure is very different - neither is incorrect, but Timi's is more the type that the better breeders are striving for these days. In her day Teaka's type was considered exceptional.
But yes, when are are talking about a 10" toy that is 7-10 pounds or more, then they are either over fat, or have a long back - or both!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I do think that Yorkies are a bit longer backed breed - many of them that I meet have really short legs though. I have the same problem fitting Timi into clothing though - I think that they are mostly all made to fit like a French Bulldog, not a lean athletic body!
> Timi does have long legs, but hard to see in photo's because of the hair and her color, she is also incredibly well muscled - even her front legs have little muscle bulges, and I think that helps a lot to protect the bones! And like I said, I have never had one break a leg, but breeders will tell you that from age 8 months - 12 months is a very high risk time for them.
> Also, if you are concerned with orthopedic health, it is best to wait until after they have a heat to spay. Toy Poodles tend to have a longer growth period and later heat than other toys - and the first heat is the signal for the growth plates to close. Timi was 15 1/2 months when she had her first heat, so you can imagine how the lack of hormones may have impacted her development if she had been spayed at 7-8 months as many people do!
> This photo shows her rear muscle a little - it is more impressive in person!
> View attachment 313306



She really is muscular. My guy is too and I think that's the only thing that saved him because he had stairs he would go up but he loved running and jumping until he hit 11 or so, so he jumped them on the way down and I didn't want to try and catch him to stop him doing it for the fear of a bad landing if I interfered.

I know there is controversy now with when to spay/neuter. My guy's trainer told me she thought neutering him the sooner the better would help because of his alpha behavior and it was done at 13 wks. I can see where waiting later would help with development but 15 months. Yikes! I saved a stray cat once that had been dumped only to find out she hadn't been spayed and was a mess and had to have a hysterectomy. So that's why I was thinking it was earlier. Good to know.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> OP means original poster - sorry, I couldn't recall your screen name and it was easier to type OP than to close what I was writing and go back and look?
> I think that a heavier bone could account for maybe an extra pound of weight tops. And also, like I explained with Teaka, she is only slightly shorter than Timi at the withers (shoulders), but Timi has a narrow body, and long legs, while Teaka has a much broader chest, but still squarely built, and weighs over a pound more than Timi. Teaka's weight is in her broad chest, not in extra back length - both Teaka and Timi have medium bones I think, but the structure is very different - neither is incorrect, but Timi's is more the type that the better breeders are striving for these days. In her day Teaka's type was considered exceptional.
> But yes, when are are talking about a 10" toy that is 7-10 pounds or more, then they are either over fat, or have a long back - or both!


Lol! That's what I was afraid of heavier (if not fat) would probably mean longer back.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> She really is muscular. My guy is too and I think that's the only thing that saved him because he had stairs he would go up but he loved running and jumping until he hit 11 or so, so he jumped them on the way down and I didn't want to try and catch him to stop him doing it for the fear of a bad landing if I interfered.
> 
> 
> 
> I know there is controversy now with when to spay/neuter. My guy's trainer told me she thought neutering him the sooner the better would help because of his alpha behavior and it was done at 13 wks. I can see where waiting later would help with development but 15 months. Yikes! I saved a stray cat once that had been dumped only to find out she hadn't been spayed and was a mess and had to have a hysterectomy. So that's why I was thinking it was earlier. Good to know.



Timi was a bit of an outlier - I think that around 13 months is more typical for my breeder's dogs.
When to neuter I am not sure of - can you tell when a boy has gone through puberty? I guess that you could always have the vet do an X-ray to see if the growth plates have closed. But nope I would not alter either sex before puberty if you are concerned about orthopedic health. I only brought this up because I know that Yorkies are typically full grown by 6-7 months, and I wanted you to know that isn't the case with poodles!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> Sounds like your Chipper was a lucky little dog! Mine won't be going quite so many wonderful places. I envy you! My Yorkie has been quite the adventurer though, one drawback was he didn't like to swim. I so that the poodle we end up with will also enjoy the water. I hear a lot of them do but not all.


Thank you. That was many years ago. All of my Poodles( except for Trina because of her seizures) enjoyed going with us when we traveled. A couple of times, we traveled with 4 Dogs, and it turned out pretty good. They all were little angels. 

Even if you don't travel much, it's important to get Poodles used to car rides. It makes it easier for when they need to go to the vet.

As for water, it just depends. The more the pup is exposed to water, the more it will like it. My dogs enjoyed water, even when we went to the beach. All of them except for Trixie. As hard as I tried to get her to go into the water with me at the beach, she didn't want anything to do with water.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Thank you. That was many years ago. All of my Poodles( except for Trina because of her seizures) enjoyed going with us when we traveled. A couple of times, we traveled with 4 Dogs, and it turned out pretty good. They all were little angels.
> 
> Even if you don't travel much, it's important to get Poodles used to car rides. It makes it easier for when they need to go to the vet.
> 
> As for water, it just depends. The more the pup is exposed to water, the more it will like it. My dogs enjoyed water, even when we went to the beach. All of them except for Trixie. As hard as I tried to get her to go into the water with me at the beach, she didn't want anything to do with water.


Well this gives me hope. With that many poodles and only one not liking water is encouraging! I saw a video recently with a man working with his pups getting them used to water in a bath. That seemed like a good idea. He built up to where he was holding one of their little bellies in the palm of his hand while they paddled and eventually they took off on their own. It was adorable.

My yorkie rode in the car from day one and never learned to like it. He would get so wound up starting with a tiny whimper and work up to what we referred to as howler monkey. We felt badly for him and took him fun places so it wasn't always a "bad" place he was going but nothing worked. Maybe next time will be easier.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

Zoe is an oversized toy. Her parents were toys , supposedly around 10 lbs and I do not know their height.
Zoe is shy of 8lbs and around 12 inches. It is hard to say cause I have never been able to get her to sit still, but for sure over 10 inches.
She does not have any trouble with her legs and bones and is actually quite athletic.


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## mom2Zoe (Jun 17, 2014)

You also mentioned not wanting a lighter color pup because of tear stains, which i totally understand since it also bothers me terribly.

Maybe others could chime in here to what causes it.... my feeling is a lot of times it has to do with choosing the right foods. 

Occasionally Zoe develops a barely noticeable stain which I wipe clean.I feed her grain free and I have to think it helps as she is light I tear stain free.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

mom2Zoe said:


> You also mentioned not wanting a lighter color pup because of tear stains, which i totally understand since it also bothers me terribly.
> 
> Maybe others could chime in here to what causes it.... my feeling is a lot of times it has to do with choosing the right foods.
> 
> Occasionally Zoe develops a barely noticeable stain which I wipe clean.I feed her grain free and I have to think it helps as she is light I tear stain free.


I asked our vet and he said it is epiphora. If you google it it tells the different things that can cause it. He also felt that if it one of the issues with the tear ducts that dogs with it shouldn't be bred. There are other reasons for it also. Your baby's face is adorable. You're so lucky she doesn't have a problem with it.

I hope I don't offend anyone, it's just me being picky! It takes two people (honestly) to clean our yorkies eyes and they don't require as much work. I would just love to get a baby that I didn't have to fight to keep clean! I joined a few poodle groups on face book and it's so weird because dog's from Europe almost never have it. Go figure.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> I asked our vet and he said it is epiphora. If you google it it tells the different things that can cause it. He also felt that if it one of the issues with the tear ducts that dogs with it shouldn't be bred. There are other reasons for it also. Your baby's face is adorable. You're so lucky she doesn't have a problem with it.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope I don't offend anyone, it's just me being picky! It takes two people (honestly) to clean our yorkies eyes and they don't require as much work. I would just love to get a baby that I didn't have to fight to keep clean! I joined a few poodle groups on face book and it's so weird because dog's from Europe almost never have it. Go figure.



You'll get no argument from me - I make no secret of the fact that I think that black poodles are extra special (I am allowed to say that because I have also had and loved a white, apricot, and silver besides four blacks). And my opinion has little to do with tear stains, my breeder does produce whites/creams, apricots and silvers that don't tear stain. And I know that there are a good number of poodles in the other colors that are just like the blacks, however with a black it is virtually guaranteed that they have that extra something, so for me black is the safest option.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> I asked our vet and he said it is epiphora. If you google it it tells the different things that can cause it. He also felt that if it one of the issues with the tear ducts that dogs with it shouldn't be bred. There are other reasons for it also. Your baby's face is adorable. You're so lucky she doesn't have a problem with it.
> 
> I hope I don't offend anyone, it's just me being picky! It takes two people (honestly) to clean our yorkies eyes and they don't require as much work. I would just love to get a baby that I didn't have to fight to keep clean! I joined a few poodle groups on face book and it's so weird because dog's from Europe almost never have it. Go figure.



Of my 8 Poodles, I've had 3 creams, and they did have tear stains, but I stayed on top of it, before they looked really bad. My other Poos were black and cream Phantoms, or black and red Phantoms, and the tear stains were not at all noticeable. So I totally understand, and you have a right to be picky!


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

I have never had much problem with tear stains, with white, apricot, red and blacks. My older apricot baby has not tear stains due to her eye needing medication and artificial tears for the last 5 years and will continue.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

I just copied this from someone one Facebook to show you - this is what I mean about not being so sure that a home based breeder is giving the attention to puppies that a kennel breeder whose full time vocation it is.
I also happen to know from her other posts that she has a domestic violence situation going on as well as having some non-dog animals to care for...
"Oh my,,,my vet called about Barney who is now Bentley{one of my pups}because the new owner wants to locate my # so I can babysit him for a week in April..Im back to work full time,Ava is due March 20th and I have 5 dogs..Im not sure this would be a wise idea..but I sure would love to see him again,he would be 5 months old now...I need to really think about this one.."


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Of my 8 Poodles, I've had 3 creams, and they did have tear stains, but I stayed on top of it, before they looked really bad. My other Poos were black and cream Phantoms, or black and red Phantoms, and the tear stains were not at all noticeable. So I totally understand, and you have a right to be picky!


Thank you Kathy! Precisely why I decided on a dark color. I starting looking at blacks and quickly found out there are few breeders in the U.S who breed the blacks the way they have to be done in Europe. So you don't end up getting a truly black coat here. I wish that it was obligatory here too. So I decided to start looking at brown instead. I went on the brown thread and so far it looks to me like most don't stay a rich dark brown! Please correct me if I'm wrong. So more research to be done on them.

I am shocked how much there is to learn about poodles! And very grateful to all of you for your help.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> I just copied this from someone one Facebook to show you - this is what I mean about not being so sure that a home based breeder is giving the attention to puppies that a kennel breeder whose full time vocation it is.
> I also happen to know from her other posts that she has a domestic violence situation going on as well as having some non-dog animals to care for...
> "Oh my,,,my vet called about Barney who is now Bentley{one of my pups}because the new owner wants to locate my # so I can babysit him for a week in April..Im back to work full time,Ava is due March 20th and I have 5 dogs..Im not sure this would be a wise idea..but I sure would love to see him again,he would be 5 months old now...I need to really think about this one.."


Wow. Certainly wouldn't want her even for a pet sitter!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

glorybeecosta said:


> I have never had much problem with tear stains, with white, apricot, red and blacks. My older apricot baby has not tear stains due to her eye needing medication and artificial tears for the last 5 years and will continue.


In the very beginning I had my heart set on an apricot but then started seeing the little stained faces. I love the colors of your's. They are adorable. I'm so sorry your baby has problem eyes. Do you mind if I ask about your apricot needing medication and artificial tears? I'm trying to learn every little thing I can.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> Wow. Certainly wouldn't want her even for a pet sitter!


Now, I'm not saying the Facebook comment isn't true, but people need to remember that when there are people talking about other people in a social setting, the facts could get garble, and mixed up. So personally, I try to take information like that with a grain of salt. Besides, that's just one home base breeder. That's why people need to do their research, and find a breeder that they believe are reputable, and whom they can most trust. Whether it be a home based breeder, or a kennel breeder, the most important thing is, is that YOU are happy with them.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Upon doing my own research on breeders, the main reason why I like home based breeders is, most of them have only a few breeding dogs. That is a big plus for me. Also, the dogs and puppies actually live with them, within the home, and it's easier to socialize them with children and visitors. To me, it's like ( until the breeder finds the right homes for her dogs), she treats them, just as she would treat other loving members of her family. I don't have anything against kennel breeders ( as long as the breeder is well known and is reputable), but there's just something about home based breeders that I find more appealing.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> Wow. Certainly wouldn't want her even for a pet sitter!



Just an example to show you not to choose a breeder based upon home or kennel, you really need to look at the individual and find out how they are raising their puppies.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Many Browns lighten - although she doesn't get them often, my breeders don't seem to - she says because hers are out of blacks. She does not breed for Browns, they come from blackxblack breedings, but they are rare.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Upon doing my own research on breeders, the main reason why I like home based breeders is, most of them have only a few breeding dogs. That is a big plus for me. Also, the dogs and puppies actually live with them, within the home, and it's easier to socialize them with children and visitors. To me, it's like ( until the breeder finds the right homes for her dogs), she treats them, just as she would treat other loving members of her family. I don't have anything against kennel breeders ( as long as the breeder is well known and is reputable), but there's just something about home based breeders that I find more appealing.


I really like the idea of them living in the home, if they are from a reputable, quality breeder. It seem's like they have a great start on house training, learning the basic polite house rules, etc. And that if there are only a few dog's in the house like some breeders and also had the time for them that they'd really be ahead of the game. But I really don't get the whole thing with put your deposit in and let the first one the list choose. How do they know if the temperament and all will be a good fit. And may take a lot of time waiting for the right one. I've heard that reputable breeders don't ask for a deposit. One of the breeders who get's a lot of praise on here does. If you don't end up getting one of puppies you don't get the deposit back. That almost seem's "shady" to me.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Just an example to show you not to choose a breeder based upon home or kennel, you really need to look at the individual and find out how they are raising their puppies.


It's hard enough just to find toy breeders in the areas I consider driving distance. Then go visit and check them out. I don't want to get a puppy without spending time with it and meeting a least the mom to see what she's like and how she cares for her pups/pup.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Tiny Poodles said:


> Many Browns lighten - although she doesn't get them often, my breeders don't seem to - she says because hers are out of blacks. She does not breed for Browns, they come from blackxblack breedings, but they are rare.


I did not know that's what brown's came from. Thank you. I'm learning so much on here!


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> It's hard enough just to find toy breeders in the areas I consider driving distance. Then go visit and check them out. I don't want to get a puppy without spending time with it and meeting a least the mom to see what she's like and how she cares for her pups/pup.



That is fantastic if you can do it, but unfortunately I have not been able to do it with my last four - they were all long distance. But it was sure worth it to get such great poodles.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Tiny Poodles said:


> That is fantastic if you can do it, but unfortunately I have not been able to do it with my last four - they were all long distance. But it was sure worth it to get such great poodles.



No, I think most Browns are from brown to brown breedings. It is just that my breeder's blacks carry a brown gene that pops up every so often. One of the members here has a new brown girl from her named Jixie. Both of her parents were black and both of her littermates were black.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> I did not know that's what brown's came from. Thank you. I'm learning so much on here!


Puppylove, some/many find this site of great interest when reading on color:
COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES .


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> I really like the idea of them living in the home, if they are from a reputable, quality breeder. It seem's like they have a great start on house training, learning the basic polite house rules, etc. And that if there are only a few dog's in the house like some breeders and also had the time for them that they'd really be ahead of the game. But I really don't get the whole thing with put your deposit in and let the first one the list choose. How do they know if the temperament and all will be a good fit. And may take a lot of time waiting for the right one. I've heard that reputable breeders don't ask for a deposit. One of the breeders who get's a lot of praise on here does. If you don't end up getting one of puppies you don't get the deposit back. That almost seem's "shady" to me.


I really don't know how it works for the deposit, but if a breeder DOES require a deposit, I don't think it should be more than $100. And with a contract stating that it's refundable if something happens and the transaction doesn't work out, and the buyer doesn't get a puppy.

When I bought Kaydee in 2000, my breeder didn't require a deposit, and I think that's the way it should be.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> It's hard enough just to find toy breeders in the areas I consider driving distance. Then go visit and check them out. I don't want to get a puppy without spending time with it and meeting a least the mom to see what she's like and how she cares for her pups/pup.



Ideally, I'm sure that's what everyone would like to do, but it may not always work out that way. If that's really important to you, then look for breeders within the area that you would be willing to travel to. If you find a breeder that you're happy with, and she is, say 400 miles away, plan a weekend trip a couple of times, so that you can really have a chance to spend time with the puppy, and see the parents as well.

When I got Kaydee, my breeder lived in Mississippi. And I'm from Oregon. I had been researching reputable breeders of the Phantoms, and she was the one that I picked. She only had 2 ( or maybe it was 3) breeding dogs, and only one that produced Phantoms. So when the puppies were born, there were 2 females and 1 male. All were Phantoms, and they were going to be red & black Phantoms. It was not possible for me to travel clear to Mississippi, so the breeder and I corresponded mostly through email, and some also by phone. She knew I wanted a female, so she would email me pictures of the two girls, and as time went on, she would tell me why she thought the one little female would be the best for me. So I put my trust in her. Also, I never did have to put down a deposit on the puppy. Kaydee was shipped to me through Delta Airlines, and it all worked out just fine. Yes, I would have preferred to go visit the breeder and pups, but sometimes it's just not possible. You just do what you have to do in order to find a good reputable breeder.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Puppy Love said:


> I really like the idea of them living in the home, if they are from a reputable, quality breeder. It seem's like they have a great start on house training, learning the basic polite house rules, etc. And that if there are only a few dog's in the house like some breeders and also had the time for them that they'd really be ahead of the game. But I really don't get the whole thing with put your deposit in and let the first one the list choose. How do they know if the temperament and all will be a good fit. And may take a lot of time waiting for the right one. I've heard that reputable breeders don't ask for a deposit. One of the breeders who get's a lot of praise on here does. If you don't end up getting one of puppies you don't get the deposit back. That almost seem's "shady" to me.



Oh, I could never in a million years put a deposit on an expected or newborn litter! Maybe that works a little better with a Spoo litter, where there will be 8-12 pups, but in a Toy litter, where there may be 1-3 pups, the odds of a puppy being the correct color, sex, size, and a good temperament match for an individual are so much lower!
My breeder might sort of promise first call on a newborn pup to someone, but from a new customer 8 weeks would generally be the earliest that she will take a deposit, and from folks she has worked with before, she doesn't even ask for a deposit.
I am fortunate enough from our long standing relationship that she offers me first call on any likely candidates, and has no problem that I let it go if the puppy does not turn out right for me - I have done that several times in the last year (I have a LONG list of what I want in my next puppy, probably the fussiest puppy buyer that she has ever dealt with lol).


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> I really like the idea of them living in the home, if they are from a reputable, quality breeder. It seem's like they have a great start on house training, learning the basic polite house rules, etc. And that if there are only a few dog's in the house like some breeders and also had the time for them that they'd really be ahead of the game. But I really don't get the whole thing with put your deposit in and let the first one the list choose. How do they know if the temperament and all will be a good fit. And may take a lot of time waiting for the right one. I've heard that reputable breeders don't ask for a deposit. One of the breeders who get's a lot of praise on here does. If you don't end up getting one of puppies you don't get the deposit back. That almost seem's "shady" to me.


Puppy Love, after you find the breeder of your choice, speak quite frankly with her about having to put down a deposit. Share your feelings about it, as well as listen to what she says. Reputable breeders will be more than happy to work with their buyers, in order to make them happy. I would definitely not put down a deposit before the litter is born, or even at just a couple of weeks old. But if you find out that there are others looking at the same pups, you may want to put down a small deposit, just to assure that you will have the first choice of a puppy. Then if something happens and you decide not to take a puppy from that litter, have it in writing that you would receive your deposit back. Regardless if there is a deposit or not, I don't think a deposit should ever be more than $100.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Streetcar said:


> Puppylove, some/many find this site of great interest when reading on color:
> COLOR BREEDING IN POODLES .


Thank you. I never knew just how many coat colors poodles came in. I can see where you need to really know about poodles or end up being shocked, lol!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Puppy Love, after you find the breeder of your choice, speak quite frankly with her about having to put down a deposit. Share your feelings about it, as well as listen to what she says. Reputable breeders will be more than happy to work with their buyers, in order to make them happy. I would definitely not put down a deposit before the litter is born, or even at just a couple of weeks old. But if you find out that there are others looking at the same pups, you may want to put down a small deposit, just to assure that you will have the first choice of a puppy. Then if something happens and you decide not to take a puppy from that litter, have it in writing that you would receive your deposit back. Regardless if there is a deposit or not, I don't think a deposit should ever be more than $100.


That makes a lot of sense. I can see where putting down a deposit would be needed if another person was also interested. Great point!


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

TrixieTreasure said:


> Ideally, I'm sure that's what everyone would like to do, but it may not always work out that way. If that's really important to you, then look for breeders within the area that you would be willing to travel to. If you find a breeder that you're happy with, and she is, say 400 miles away, plan a weekend trip a couple of times, so that you can really have a chance to spend time with the puppy, and see the parents as well.
> 
> When I got Kaydee, my breeder lived in Mississippi. And I'm from Oregon. I had been researching reputable breeders of the Phantoms, and she was the one that I picked. She only had 2 ( or maybe it was 3) breeding dogs, and only one that produced Phantoms. So when the puppies were born, there were 2 females and 1 male. All were Phantoms, and they were going to be red & black Phantoms. [It was not possible for me to travel clear to Mississippi, so the breeder and I corresponded mostly through email, and some also by phone. She knew I wanted a female, so she would email me pictures of the two girls, and as time went on, she would tell me why she thought the one little female would be the best for me. So I put my trust in her. Also, I never did have to put down a deposit on the puppy. Kaydee was shipped to me through Delta Airlines, and it all worked out just fine. Yes, I would have preferred to go visit the breeder and pups, but sometimes it's just not possible. You just do what you have to do in order to find a good reputable breeder.]


I have never spent time around puppies less than 10 wks old. So how early can they start to really tell what the pup will be like? Temperament, energy, and whatnot? And then did you get her around 10 wks or so?


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

For both of my spoos we visited them around five weeks old. For Lily you could tell exactly what she would be like at that age. For Javelin he also stood out at 5 weeks to me, but was even more obviously the right puppy for us at 7 weeks. I don't think it should be that different with tpoos.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

I had no idea that much could be told about them that early on. Now I see how breeders can figure out which pup would best suit you and still have them ready for their new home by 10 wks or so. I adore Javelins handsome look and hairdo. Exactly how I hope to do my pups hair.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

the columbia poodle club is hq'd in portland. you may want to check them out, also, for help with your search.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Thank you patk. I will get in contact with them.

Do any of you have any experience with buying an older, retired dog? As much as I would love to get a pup that seem's like it might being a good option. Or know if breeders even list them or maybe they go to friends, family, people they know rather than selling them?


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> For both of my spoos we visited them around five weeks old. For Lily you could tell exactly what she would be like at that age. For Javelin he also stood out at 5 weeks to me, but was even more obviously the right puppy for us at 7 weeks. I don't think it should be that different with tpoos.



I think Spoos develop much quicker than Toys - my breeder says that she cannot asses temperament of the toys until 8-10 weeks. But she keeps them until a minimum of 12 weeks, so that's fine.


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> I have never spent time around puppies less than 10 wks old. So how early can they start to really tell what the pup will be like? Temperament, energy, and whatnot? And then did you get her around 10 wks or so?



Well this was a long time ago, but if I can remember correctly, one of the females was smaller than the other one, and it seemed to cling to its mom more than the other one. That was right around 7 to maybe 7 and 1/2 weeks of age. The other female was very independent, and more playful (she's the one that I got). Then about a week later, when the adult children came to visit, the independent female allowed them to pick her up, and played with, while the smaller female was still shy. So my breeder knew pretty much then which female would best suit me. Kaydee was born on Nov. 30th ( 1999) and we picked her up on Valentines Day, Feb. 14 ( 2000). Just right around 10 and 1/2 weeks.

I don't think puppies should leave their mother and siblings before 10 weeks of age. Many years before, I used to get my babies at 8 weeks old, but personally, what I believe now is, that is too soon. 10 weeks is the earliest that I believe is okay.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

my female lowchen was a retired show dog. couldn't have asked for better.

btw, i know they are not in your neighborhood, but pickets poodles in minnesota (pickektspoodles.com) does rescue. they have a couple of dogs listed on the site right now that might be of interest. a couple are rehomes, not rescues. in the past she has also placed puppies from good breeders - again, not rescues, but pups where, i suspect, the breeder was too busy showing to work out details of placement, etc. you may want to call and talk to her.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

You are all wonderful! I really appreciate all your experience and suggestions.

Using the breeders you've suggested I've decided to start one by one and contact the breeders you've suggested. I emailed Clarion yesterday and hope to hear from them soon. I did a lot of googling on them and about shows and unless I have missed stuff I can't find anything on them in show or anything else for that matter since 2013. I hope they haven't quit breeding!


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## TrixieTreasure (May 24, 2015)

Puppy Love said:


> You are all wonderful! I really appreciate all your experience and suggestions.
> 
> Using the breeders you've suggested I've decided to start one by one and contact the breeders you've suggested. I emailed Clarion yesterday and hope to hear from them soon. I did a lot of googling on them and about shows and unless I have missed stuff I can't find anything on them in show or anything else for that matter since 2013. I hope they haven't quit breeding!



Well good luck, and be sure to keep us informed on how it's going!


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Puppy Love said:


> You are all wonderful! I really appreciate all your experience and suggestions.
> 
> Using the breeders you've suggested I've decided to start one by one and contact the breeders you've suggested. I emailed Clarion yesterday and hope to hear from them soon. I did a lot of googling on them and about shows and unless I have missed stuff I can't find anything on them in show or anything else for that matter since 2013. I hope they haven't quit breeding!


I briefly chatted with them and watched prep for the ring as recently as sometime in 2014 (sad to say I didn't even once rent a car last year to get up to Vallejo where most local shows are held). No idea if the info is current, but their website does indicate a 3 1/2 year old cream boy is available.


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## Puppy Love (Aug 10, 2015)

Streetcar said:


> I briefly chatted with them and watched prep for the ring as recently as sometime in 2014 (sad to say I didn't even once rent a car last year to get up to Vallejo where most local shows are held). No idea if the info is current, but their website does indicate a 3 1/2 year old cream boy is available.


I just found this. Thank you for the information, I really appreciate it!


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