# teaching the down command



## ponyrider222 (Nov 24, 2014)

My 7 month old boy knows the basic commands, sit, stay come, drop but the down command has been a challenge. If I have a treat in my hand he will lay down but otherwise just stares at me like "nope, ain't gonna do it". I can get him to do everything else without food but the down isn't one of them. It isn't always practical to have treats with me so I'm looking for tips and advise to teach him this command. Thank you.


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

If he already knows the down command I would just start weaning him of the treats. Give him the command, give a treat. Give him the command again don't give a treat, give lots of praise instead. Just continue on with this and slowly increase the amount of times you don't give a treat. I find that poodles usually work better for their owners praise than treats anyway. I could never train Winter with treats but if I give him loads of praise and am super happy about something he does, he gets so excited and does that thing over and over and over for me.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

I went through that phase with Wilson. He would drop in an instant for food, but just stand there if I didn't have food. I did the weaning thing and had him on a leash, so he couldn't take off... and was very patient. He was very stubborn. Rather than repeat the command and have him learn that "down" meant he could stand there, I gave the command and placed him gently into the down position. I wasn't picky about how he was down (on his side was fine). I praised him like crazy once he was in position. It took about five minutes (and as many repetitions) before he went down on his own, with no help. We had a good puppy party and the lesson ended for the day. The next day he went down on the first command. So, sometimes, I think, you just have to be patient, and a little more stubborn than your dog. It seems like once the light bulb flickers on, it stays on.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

What I would suggest is to start with a couple repetitions the way you usually do. Then hold a treat in one hand behind your back and with your other hand, make it smelly from the treat, but empty. Use that hand for your luring him into position. Mark it the second he is down or even almost down and then within a couple seconds, furnish the treat you have hidden behind your back. Do this a few times. Be sure to use a marker word, such as "yessss!" or a clicker, as it buys your a few seconds to retrieve your treat for the dog. Don't wait more than about 2 seconds though. Then do the same but retrieve your treat from somewhere else...a table top, your pocket. Switch locations and surroundings as well as your own position. Sometimes sit with him and ask for a down, sometimes bend over, sometimes stand up right or turned sideways. Be sure to vary these things so the same old thing doesn't become part of the cue. You want him to become versatile with this. Even eventually, you can work him from a short distance and increase gradually...but that's later. Treats are good if he loves them. Praise as a reinforcer, imo is marginal. They like praise but it's not a _primary _reinforcer. They also get that love and attention anyhow every day. So, keep on with the treats to really, really motivate him. But get him so you're _rewarding_, not bribing, even though it's inadvertant. After he succeeds with the treats coming from behind your back or another place, and not in you're luring hand, stop luring him altogether. Minimize or make more subtle your luring and turn it into a hand signal and don't have it smell like food. Try to do this asap so you're not luring for too long, a couple sessions is all it should be. Dogs can get stuck in that and have a hard time moving on. But if he doesn't succeed, you'll have to go back a step to where he was successful for a little longer. 

Another thing you can try is a game where you sit on the floor with your knees up like a sort of bridge and entice him to crawl under them, not with a food bribe but with your hands or a wiggly toy, your silly play voice. Make sure it's a fun thing. When he's directly underneath and if he'll go down or almost down, mark it and treat him. Don't squash him down with your legs even though it's tempting. lol.

As he becomes more regular, add your verbal cue...not before. If you try to elicit the down (or anything else) before he's doing it, he'll miss the association. Just get the behavior first and worry about the verbal cue later.


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## Specman (Jun 14, 2012)

I find that hand signals really help Max understand what I want from him but what is wrong with treats? We all want our dogs to love use but I like to get paid and I an sure that Max does too. No one likes to work for nothing and this is work that he does for me.


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## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Timi's trainer had us doing "puppy push-ups" -surprise combinations of sit, down, and stand, giving a treat only at the end of the exercise. I gradually increased the amount of behaviors to where she can easily do 15-20 before a treat. I think that fixed it so that she does not expect a treat for every individual thing that she does.


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## peccan (Aug 26, 2014)

Specman said:


> I find that hand signals really help Max understand what I want from him but what is wrong with treats? We all want our dogs to love use but I like to get paid and I an sure that Max does too. No one likes to work for nothing and this is work that he does for me.


Well if you always treat, you'll have a dog who knows you'll always treat. Thus, a dog who won't bother doing stuff if he's not that hungry. We humans tend to want reliable behaviour from our dog's, and for that end it's useful to employ some Skinner principles because let's face it, most of the stuff we like our dogs to do has no inherent value to the dog. In this case, the principle is to vary the degree of the outcome. In a sense we could say we want a dog who's a gambler: always taking the chance to sit, come, play dead just in case this is the time there's cheese or real meat or a treat jackpot to be gained. Lesser value treats work well for booby prizes to encourage the dog to keep 'gambling' even though jackpots are rare.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

If you're following techniques based on learning behavior...we treat each time the dog gives a correct response when learning a new behavior. As the dog starts giving a correct response about 85% of the time, give or take, you can go onto a fixed ratio of reinforcement...that is, say...every 3rd correct response. You can do this for a couple sessions. It sort of "fixes" that behavior in place. Then go onto a variable reinforcement schedule, which is not a completely random number of correct responses, but an average, sort of like slot machines work. (perhaps ever 3rd, every 7th, every other, every 4th, every 8th, every 2nd etc) This way the dog thinks, hey, how come it's not working? I'm not getting a treat. So he tries harder to get rewarded... and offers a quicker recall or a straighter sit. So, you start reinforcing only the best examples of the behavior. You can jack pot him when he does the behavior stupendously. And that level will become your base line from which to build or improve. If the dog flags and does not give you a correct response too many times, you need to go back to every correct response for a little bit. 

This all really helps speed things along and helps the dog learn HOW TO learn. Bribery, not reward is what causes a dog to only work for treats. This you can phase out slowly. But behavior can and will regress, so it's wise to reinforce _some_ of the responses, even when the dog has become very reliable.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

If you are confident that he knows the command, I would give a small leash correction. I teach my dogs to accept mild downward pressure with the leash for a down. Not at all to punish them, but because I've found that
making things more black and white for them "yes this is right", "no that's wrong, this is what I want" "yes! That's right!" drastically improves their understanding of what I want from them. I use a marker word, "yes" but also teach them a "wrong" command. It isn't the same as "no!" (Never ever do that again!) but it just means (Nope, try again!  ) 

Also, since it sounds like he's possibly very food motivated, I would start phasing out the treats once he understands the commands. Sometimes treat every time, sometimes every 2 times, sometimes every 3 times. Switch it up so he never knows when the treat is coming!


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

The problem though, with leash corrections when you figure the dog "knows" a behavior but isn't doing it is...that whether he knows or not isn't what drives behavior, isn't what makes them decide to do a behavior. What raises the odds of repeating a correct response is the dog's history of reinforcement for that behavior. Technically, consequences are what drive behavior, not that he loves you or wants to please or doesn't want to please. Dogs don't do things to please us believe it or not. They do things for selfish, albeit innocently selfish reasons. And they're related to survival. And yes, consequences can be punishment or reward. But a punishment has some fall out or side effects, more or less with various dogs. So if you take things gradually, not asking for more than the dog is ready for...or take things in baby steps, not expecting the total behavior but perhaps something approximating it and work up, that helps the dog not fail and therefore make you think you need to correct him. Dogs are often not thinking about their behavior and when you use punishment, even mild, they may pair it with something else that you didn't intend. It may cause a little erosion in your relationship with the dog. (some dogs are intensely sensitive) But if the dog doesn't connect the behavior with the reward, no harm, no foul. He will eventually. 

Think of it this way...regarding making an association between a consequence and a behavior. The dog doesn't know at first what behavior you mean. So, he has to sift out or rule out all kinds of other behaviors he is doing or thinking about at that time. Say he's walking on a leash and you want to reward a nice loose leash walk along side you. So you leash pop him because he's pulling ahead too much. But at the same time, he's doing, seeing, thinking about other things too. He's turning his head, wagging his tail, looking at a kid on a bike and a multitude of other things. How does he know which thing you mean UNTIL he's had a sufficient history of reinforcement which occurred exclusive to the target behavior? So, it is very possible that you correct him when he hasn't zeroed in on the target behavior and he may make an unwanted association with the other things going on around him or in his head. I don't want to do that. It can cause a dog to fear or be aggressive to that kid on a bike. He misses the association I want him to make. So, set him up for success, take baby steps and if he doesn't get it every time, he needs more practice. He's not being stubborn. Whether he knows the behavior or not is irrelevant. He needs more reinforcement for that behavior. Dogs do what works....(for themselves) Maybe he needs a better reinforcer, fewer distractions, more focus training, more practice with baby steps.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

All I can say is that in *my* experience, *my* dogs are more likely to repeat a behavior if I use a combination of "yes that's right" and "no that's wrong." . It seems that when they feel that they understand, in black and white terms, what I do and do not want, they feel much more confident , act more driven. and are more likely to offer the behavior I want which means they are more likely to be rewarded. 

I have trained in the absence of leash corrections, and I can tell you that the relationship I have with my dogs, their desire to work, and their enjoyment of working is much greater when I train with a combination of corrections and praise to help guide them more clearly as opposed to without the use of any corrections.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I think what you're probably doing is a no reward marker...."that's wrong." I guess what I mean to say is a real punisher is not really needed in most cases. I tell my dogs "uh-oh" about certain things but it's more a directive, not associated with something "bad." Then show them what to do. Well, that's the theory. But by not being rewarded when a dog is use to PR training, that non rewarded behavior IS telling the dog that it isn't correct so he tries something else that might work. He tends to throw more behaviors more often so the odds go up that he'll hit on the right one. Behavior that isn't reinforced will extinguish. When a dog is use to both corrections and reward, the absence of a reward is sometimes not as telling or informative.


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