# A gimmick...or not?



## Cdnjennga

I'll give my thoughts, bearing in mind they're from the perspective of a Poodle pet owner with limited interest in showing/ breeding!

I think the fact that the Moyen size is recognised in Europe gives it a legitimacy not awarded to the tiny toy/ royal. So someone could (and has, I'm sure) imported a Moyen or Klein from a strong European pedigree and that dog would have some legitimacy as being an actual size versus a ridiculous marketing pitch. So for me, bringing over something that exists in Europe but does not exist in NA makes some sense. We see people on this forum all the time who would like a dog that falls in the over 15 inches but under 22 inches space, and calling them Moyens/ Kleins helps to distinguish those dogs.

As for breeding a miniature pedigreed dog to a standard pedigreed dog, well on paper that makes no sense to me. While Poodles are all of course one breed, there are such structural and health differences that bringing the two together could result in a big mess (as seen in the past breeding you alluded to). So without knowing who the breeder is or what their intentions are, as a theory only, I don't like the idea of mixing the two sizes. 

But then this makes me wonder how the moyen or klein size came about in Europe. Did they breed minis up? Did they breed standards down? Did they mix the two? Knowledge of how the size came to be in Europe might educate breeding practices here, and perhaps is behind the breeding you mentioned.


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## 3dogs

I have NO problem with the Klein/Moyen usage AS long as one is breeding the European dogs at this standard to others of it's kind. One needs to look at the "breeder". I have seen fantastic dogs coming from actual import Moyen/Klein Poodles here in the US. On the other hand when looking at websites there are a couple of people breeding a 20" standard to a 15" Mini & calling them Moyen. To me that is just a mixed poodle breeding & not a true Moyen/Klein. In other countries there is an upper height limit to Standard Poodles so there is no such thing as a Royal St. To me the Royal & the Teacup is a marketing gimmick since NO legit registry accepts these terms.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle

3dogs said:


> I have NO problem with the Klein/Moyen usage AS long as one is breeding the European dogs at this standard to others of it's kind. One needs to look at the "breeder". I have seen fantastic dogs coming from actual import Moyen/Klein Poodles here in the US. On the other hand when looking at websites there are a couple of people breeding a 20" standard to a 15" Mini & calling them Moyen. To me that is just a mixed poodle breeding & not a true Moyen/Klein. In other countries there is an upper height limit to Standard Poodles so there is no such thing as a Royal St. To me the Royal & the Teacup is a marketing gimmick since NO legit registry accepts these terms.


I agree with the Teacup and Royal titles. These are most definately sales gimmicks to lure people who want tiny toys and large Standards!


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## Keithsomething

I think you may be reading a bit to far into this situation Tabatha, I'm sure we could easily ask Karen why she feels breeding her mini to a standard is a good idea and see what she has to say.
but I'm about 100% sure that it has NOTHING to do with creating a new colour of standard poodles like the original breeding of red minis to apricot standards was for...

The reason that I said this breeding seemed fine to me (as you indirectly quoted me on a place I couldn't defend myself...seeing as I wasn't invited to that "_exclusive_" club ;D )



NOLA Standards said:


> "Oh, that is X. I'm sure her pups are lovely."


was because Karen seems to know what she is doing, she prefers the size of a klein vs. a standard and whether you or any other AKC person likes it or not shes breeding them, these dogs do not impact your breeding program and have no sway over what you are doing either (since shes breeding "kleins" and not standards people can't even be like "Oh theres another BYB breeding reds again")

I'll also mention that Karin isn't a BYB using "gimmicks"...because according to EVERY member on this forum Health Testing for every known condition (that has tests available), participating in conformation to prove her stock, participating in breed sports, and a whole other laundry list of factors disqualifies her from being a BYB...it must be the colour shes breeding, because she meets every other criteria asked of a breeder


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## Poodle Lover

The only way I would get a Moyen poodle is if I directly imported it from Europe. I would want it to be a real Moyen, meaning a Moyen to Moyen breeding not small standard to miniature the way many breeders do it here.


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## AgilityIG

I have to point out that this particular litter is not being sold as a Kleinpudel litter. Karin say on her website what it is - a Standard/Mini breeding that will be "similiar" to a Klein.

Also, most of her dogs are either imported Kleins or offspring of her imports.


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## NOLA Standards

Then why not invest in another European dog?

IF either the stud or damn were titled and excellent examples of the breed, perhaps I could choke it down on a "better my line premise".

But neither are.


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## Winnow

First of all people in USA are breeding after the AKC standard !!!
There is no Klein/Moyen in the AKC standard.

You have toy, miniature, standard.

In the FCI standard (most European country's go by them)
We have Toy, Miniature, Medium and Standard
Klein/Moyen is a German word for a medium poodle.

So in America you dont even have a medium sized poodle so it would either categorize as a big miniature or a small standard.

If people are breeding dogs with a AKC pedigree you stick with the AKC standard but if you where registering the pups with a FCI pedigree you would go with there rules.

These are all the same dogs just different height limit

So you can see the difference in height:

AKC standard

Toys under 10 inch
Miniatures 10 to 15 inch
Standards over 15 inch

FCI

Toy under 11 inch
Miniature 11 to 13.8 inch
Medium 13.8 inch to 17.7 inch
Standard 17.7 inch to 24.4 inch

I would say that in Europe good breeders do not mix Standards to any other size but it is acceptable to mix toy,miniature and medium. 

Bottom line you don't have any Klein/Moyen=Medium Poodles in AKC.


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## Beach girl

Interesting topic. Casey, and I believe there are several others on this forum, is an overgrown mini at 17". I LOVE this size. It was just chance that he was overgrown; his litter sister is a true mini and is winning championships all over Canada. I would love to see PCA/AKC recognize the klein/moyen size in the U.S., because it truly fills a perfect niche.

I'm confused at the statement about Karin "participating in conformation to prove her stock..." Surely she can't be doing this with the Moyens, is she? Or does she enter the puppies in conformation before they reach their adult height that would disqualify them from the miniature class?

Also I'm confused as to what would be wrong with breeding an oversize mini with a small standard? How would that offspring not be "moyen" sized and proportioned?


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## Winnow

The is no such thing as a over-sized mini if its over 15 inch its a Standard


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## Beach girl

Technically, yes, but he came from mini parents. So isn't it a little strange to call a dog born from miniature lines a standard?


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## NOLA Standards

In the US you can't call him a Moyen.

Or you can, but you'd get looked at funny.

I have no problem with the size (larger mini - smaller standard) Annie is 21 inches. While that is a tiny bit small for the conformation ring, I love the package she makes. (Though that package also consists of CORRECT porportions and a mini x standard pup is not going to have correct porportions).

A mini x a standard breeding - especially in red - has been done. Read about the structure issues and the temperment issues here 
ShangriLa

I've copied a small portion for quick reading:

_It took many years to achieve the quality and conformation that we see in the red standard poodles of today. The concept of developing a red standard poodle was first conceived by Ilse Konig of the Shangri-La Kennel when she returned from Germany in 1980 and admired a red miniature poodle at a dog show.

With the assistance of the Palamares Kennel in Oregon; together they embarked upon an experimental breeding by mating a small English apricot bitch (provided by Shangri-la) to an oversize red dog at Palamares. [In Europe, it is acceptable to mate separate size classifications as long as the difference is under 10 centimeters.] Quoting from Ilse Konig “I kept the first litter—4 red babies. The color was stunning and I was dancing from joy! The problem came later on. The heads were Standard Poodles, the legs short like Miniature Poodles. While they were cute, they were not in temperament as I knew the Standard Poodle. They all were smaller than a Standard and they were called a "Caniche", (the in-between size of Mini and Standard Poodle)." _

IF you want to breed this size - and don't want questions about your breeding, why not do it right.

As breeders we should ALWAYS breed to improve. Yes! health test, Yes! compete in performance, Yes! compete in conformation, Yes! support your puppies for life, Yes! limit your litters... BUT ALWAYS and ONLY breed to improve.

And I think, if you want to be able to promote the European MOYEN or Klein, then import.


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## Winnow

Beach girl said:


> Technically, yes, but he came from mini parents. So isn't it a little strange to call a dog born from miniature lines a standard?


It does not matter just call it what it is
IMO there is not large mini or small standard.
if the dog is over 15 inch its a standard if its under its a mini

In Europe we measure the poodles when they turn 15 months old and then they are put into there right size no matter what size there parents are.


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## Beach girl

So if they grow taller after they are 15 months old, that doesn't matter?

Nola, I'm not a breeder and never intend to be. I hope to be an agility competitor. Casey just finished his Advanced Agility class, and did very well. The instructor thinks we are ready to start competing at the novice level now (although I want to participate in some fun matches before I really compete, to see if he can handle the noise and excitement).

Now the thing is, there are lots of agility competitors who LOVE this moyen/klein/oversize miniature/small standard, call it what you will. So long as it's not conformation, who cares? They are a great size to run agility.

So, speaking just as a person who loves this size, I wish the American regulations would be brought into conformity with the European designations. It really makes no sense to have two different standards internationally, and to me, the European system seems much more logical and realistic, since it acknowledges that size in-between miniatures and standards.

Incidentally, FWIW, Casey has much better proportions than does Pippin, who at 13" is a true miniature. But a badly bred one, no doubt.


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## Cdnjennga

Winnow said:


> It does not matter just call it what it is
> IMO there is not large mini or small standard.
> if the dog is over 15 inch its a standard if its under its a mini


I don't agree with this. To my eye, the overgrown Minis still look like Minis, not Standards. So while I agree that technically anything over 15 inches is a Standard, I look at the 16 and 17 inch Minis as oversized Minis because their pedigrees are all Miniature, their health issues are Miniature, and their temperaments are most likely Miniature as well!

The reality is while the Poodle is one breed, the three sizes have quite different looks, temperaments and health problems. So I don't think you can just go by inches (even though that's what the breed standard says). I'd be very surprised if a 17 inch Standard from Miniature stock had any chance of winning in the Standard breed ring! Perhaps in Iceland they have a more cohesive "Poodle" but I don't think that's true in NA.


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## Winnow

Cdnjennga said:


> Perhaps in Iceland they have a more cohesive "Poodle" but I don't think that's true in NA.


We have 4 sizes so we don't see this problem.
Since if a miniature is overgrown it would be a medium not a standard


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## Beach girl

Which is exactly my point! What can we do to persuade the American authorities to change to the 4 sizes regulations?


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## Poodle Lover

Cdnjennga said:


> I don't agree with this. To my eye, the overgrown Minis still look like Minis, not Standards. So while I agree that technically anything over 15 inches is a Standard, I look at the 16 and 17 inch Minis as oversized Minis because their pedigrees are all Miniature, their health issues are Miniature, and their temperaments are most likely Miniature as well!
> 
> The reality is while the Poodle is one breed, the three sizes have quite different looks, temperaments and health problems. So I don't think you can just go by inches (even though that's what the breed standard says). I'd be very surprised if a 17 inch Standard from Miniature stock had any chance of winning in the Standard breed ring! Perhaps in Iceland they have a more cohesive "Poodle" but I don't think that's true in NA.


I couldn't agree with this more. A 17" oversize miniature still looks, acts and a 19" or a 20" standard is still a standard with a standard genetics and temperament. I don't think we should ever mix the sizes.


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## Beach girl

I think you left something out of your middle sentence there. "A 17" oversize miniature still looks, acts ...." what, like a miniature? (I'm guessing?) and a "19" or 20" standard is still a standard?"

So for you, the dividing line is around 18" then?

What would you consider "mixing the sizes?" Let's say someone has a 17" oversized miniature, from mini parents. Someone else has a very small standard, 20", from standard parents. Would a breeding between those two be considered "mixing the sizes?" They are closer in height than what would be allowed within the miniature class, which could be as small as 11" and as tall as just under 15." The Moyen class would easily include both the 17" and the 20" dogs, as I understand it.

The thing is that many mini breeders are shooting for that 14 3/4," or a smidge higher, to hit that just barely under 15" limit. Of course that means that sometimes there will be pups born that grow to over the limit. Why can't we just give that next the Moyen/Klein name, and have it compete accordingly?

I look at my two alleged "Miniatures," and see so many differences. Pippin, at barely 13", has a very toy-like face, although he has a sturdy bone and muscle structure. Casey truly does look like a very small standard; he has a beautiful face, with a longer and broader nose, sculptured head, standard-type proportions, in a 17" body. But both of them came from mini backgrounds.


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## NOLA Standards

Breeders who are proving their animals won't be breeding oversized minis or undersized standards.

They are not good representatives of the breed and in the conformation ring, a wicket would promptly come out and they would be dismissed.

Taking everything else that I wrote out now...

:banghead:


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## Beach girl

Sigh. I'm not defending anybody's practices; I'm just stating the obvious, that oversize minis DO happen quite frequently as a natural variation, people DO like the size (especially agility competitors, but also just regular folks who like the size as a sturdy pet), and to me, it makes no sense that the U.S. and Europe should have different size categories. Maybe there are political reasons behind it all, I don't know. 

Someone, somewhere, arbitrarily decided the size groupings, and decided that there would be two definitions, the U.S. having one and the rest of the world having another. It's a human concept, it's not written in stone, and humans can re-evaluate. I wish they would. That's all I'm saying.


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## Purley

This is a really interesting discussion. Unfortunately I can't really have any input into the subject because I am not aware of problems that exist breeding a mini to a standard. 

However, when I decided I wanted a Poodle, I looked at the Canadian breed standard and I decided that I would go looking for a Standard poodle that was 17 - 18 inches tall. I looked on the sites for breeders that show their dogs, because that is where I would always look for a dog - someone who has proven their dogs in the show ring. It soon became apparent to me that I was looking for something that did not exist -- at least in breeders that showed their dogs. That is because I am sure that no "Standard" poodle that was the size I wanted would have a chance of winning.

So I gave up and started looking for a taller or oversize "Mini". I figured I had a better chance of finding a 16 inch Miniature poodle than I would looking for a 17 inch Standard poodle.

I suppose the same situation exists in other breeds. Where a dog that is within the breed standard is not a "popular" size for winning.


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## Cdnjennga

NOLA Standards said:


> Breeders who are proving their animals won't be breeding oversized minis or undersized standards.
> 
> They are not good representatives of the breed and in the conformation ring, a wicket would promptly come out and they would be dismissed.
> 
> Taking everything else that I wrote out now...
> 
> :banghead:


That's just not true for minis, in fact minis in the US regularly go oversized. They are constantly pushing that 15 inch limit. Most of the minis on this forum who are oversized come from show breeders! I can think of 3 right off the top of my head who come from breeders who are very active in conformation.

Anyway, I agree with Beach Girl. Humans made up the breed standards, and nothing is set in stone. There's what the standard says and then there's what's happening out there in the real world. Having said that, I still don't think breeding minis to standards is a good practice due to health, structure and temperament differences.


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## Beach girl

*Purley, * that is exactly what I'm talking about - people like you specifically looking for that size, and only able to find it by chance.

"Breeders who are proving their animals won't be breeding oversized minis or undersized standards."

They might not be deliberately breeding oversized minis together, but many, many top breeders - including Aery, including Palman, including Cabryn, including many, many others - do have the occasional oversize mini come up from a mini-mini breeding, especially if the pair are close to the top of the range. These breeders are certainly well-respected and have the Champion titles to prove it. 

An example: my Casey's litter sister is a perfect 13", and is winning conformation titles all over Canada. Casey ended up being 17". Same litter. It happens. 

When Casey was 6 months old, a top handler saw him when I was at a show, evaluated him, and wanted to show him. At that point, Casey was still in-size, and who knows, could have won his titles before he outgrew it. I decided not to go that route because I really wasn't that interested in conformation, nor in having my dog live with someone else for a few months.

I think it would be great if we could open up that 15 - 20" category, call it what it is, and compete accordingly. I think it would be for the betterment of the breed. And you could then breed a 16" dog with a 17" or 18" bitch, and all would be well.

Again, this is where the European system makes more sense. I think it was Winnow who explained the rules, that they can cross sizes but the mating pair must be within 10 centimeters (about 5 inches). That's the same as a small mini to a mini at the top of the category. Makes more sense to me than breeding, say, a small standard of 18" to a large standard of 25", which would be perfectly legal and acceptable under U.S. rules.

Edited to add: You and I were writing at the same time!


> Having said that, I still don't think breeding minis to standards is a good practice due to health, structure and temperament differences.


 See, I totally agree with you there. And that's another reason I think the Moyen category should be specific unto itself, and then you wouldn't have mini to standard breedings; you could be breeding two dogs of like size.


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## Feralpudel

NOLA Standards said:


> Breeders who are proving their animals won't be breeding oversized minis or undersized standards.
> 
> They are not good representatives of the breed and in the conformation ring, a wicket would promptly come out and they would be dismissed.
> 
> Taking everything else that I wrote out now...
> 
> :banghead:


I agree with others that very good mini breeders have minis that go oversize all the time, because they are working right up against that 15" limit. I would say that if you are looking for something between 15-20", a show mini breeder is a great place to start. 

As for "undersized" standards, I think they sometimes happen even when breeders are working to stay in the 22-25" range. Cbrand wound up placing her pick boy from Sabrina's first litter because he wasn't going to be big enough to cut it in the show ring. 

As for "undersized" standards and "oversized" minis not being good representatives of their variety, I disagree. On the one hand, why do you think some of the top-winning mini breeders are always pushing up against that height limit? And on the other hand, although a smaller standard may not be as imposing in the ring, a lot of times I think that the smaller specimens are more typey and move better, especially relative to standards pushing the higher end in the show ring (26-27"). Cbrand's Sabrina is a great example of a lovely, typey little package.


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## NOLA Standards

Sorry about that phrasing. I wasn't quite clear with what I left as a post (after I removed my rant!).

I had interpreted the previous post to say breeders were breeding towards a mixed size, not to the standard of their variety.

My response was (or was ment to be) that would hardly be successful.

You are certainly correct about ring presence and size. Antoinette is a smaller standard. I've said many times I love her package. I love that she is everything red standards are typically not.

BUT, in the ring against a larger bitch, or even in a large ring, she can get lost. She doesn't have huge reach, she's correct, but at 20 - 21 inches, she doesn't cover the ground a 24 - 25 bitch can.

Preference prevails.

And I appreciate that.

Just seems like iffy practices are forgiven based on who ya know...


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## Keithsomething

NOLA Standards said:


> Just seems like iffy practices are forgiven based on who ya know...


I would like to just clarify, that I don't really agree with breeding a mini to a standard to achieve the "moyen/klein" size...what I mean to say is that if she has a goal in mind and that goal is a desired size with the right structure (that could be bred in years down the road) who is it hurting but herself?

the initial breeding of a red mini to an apricot standard has caused many problems in the red standard poodle, and if you include BYB's and what they have done to the breed on top of it with over breeding animals its not going to be an easy fix...

however Karin is not trying to this on anyone elses dogs except her own...so IF there are minis with a standards legs, or a standards body on a minis legs it will all be at her feet to decide if she wants to breed forward

and I agree, we should have another stage between the mini and the standard...if a mini breeder were to enter a 16inch mini into a standard ring the judge would just be floored (that is if they don't finish the puppy before it hits the 16in mark...and the measure them >.<)


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## 3dogs

o.k just to through fuel to the fire- I have noticed that plenty of posters here do believe that all three AKC poodles do have a distinct diffence. Whether it be in the head structure, movement etc.... Then why in this day & age are the Written Standard of Perfection the same with all 3 sizes??? This just doesn't even make sense to me. It has been stated over & over again that Mini's don't look like Standards & there fore shouldn't be "mixed" etc.... Why isn't there an addendum or something that will seperate the sizes with their own characteristics. What makes a Toy a Toy & not just height, a Mini a Mini etc... We have debated about "oversize" this & that. Now that I have been out & around some quality Mini's they do look different than an oversized Toy, which previously I was more that it was just a size thing.

I am also one of the supporters of a Standard that is in the 17-20" range. I have an adopted Poodle that is 22 1/2" & that is tall enough for me. I can't beat his temperament & lucky for me I was open minded at CPR to even look at Poodle's this size. I think he is awesome. Now if I could have a bunch more that were under 20".


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## Feralpudel

3dogs said:


> o.k just to through fuel to the fire- I have noticed that plenty of posters here do believe that all three AKC poodles do have a distinct diffence. Whether it be in the head structure, movement etc.... Then why in this day & age are the Written Standard of Perfection the same with all 3 sizes???


What we see and comment on is the state of affairs; the standard is the written blueprint of what a poodle *should* look like. When toys, minis, and standards look different from each other, it is because a variety tends to deviate from the breed standard in certain ways--spoos have snipey muzzles; toys have bulgey eyes and coarse backskulls; minis have sloping croups and lack shelf, etc. 

The ideal should be that you should look at a dog and not be able to tell immediately except from contextual cues whether it is a toy, a mini, or a standard. Jelena mentioned on another thread that when she saw a photo of Afterglow Sugar Daddy (standard), she wasn't sure he was a standard because he had a lovely underjaw (as all poodles should and many minis do). Similarly, I remember seeing an ad of Alegria Urban Cowboy on the move. Until I noticed the handler's skirt in the background, my first guess was that he was a standard.


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## Keithsomething

For some reason I can't wrap my mind around applying the standard for standards to minis...its weird but whenever I look at a mini or a toy...I KNOW what it should look like, but I just can't conceptualize (like I can for a standard) where its faults are when compared to the written standard

So I do not know if this mini is too the standard or not, or what its faults may be...BUT whenever people say it should look like a shrunken proportionate standard THIS is what I think of

This guy's photo is on the Bellefleet website 
and there are a few more mini's on there that look just like this, but I thought he got the point across better

Minature

Timari the Owner

Bellefleet Handling


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## Feralpudel

Here's a link to Urban Cowboy--different picture than the one I originally saw, but same impression--very elegant profile and up on leg--nice proportion of leg to body length; nice amount of bone (neither overly refined nor too heavy in bone):

Alegria Poodles

As an aside, I also think his color is gorgeous (platinum silver). He is sire to Alegria Shamus, a handsome silver beige.


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## Beach girl

Gorgeous boy.

In theory, if someone wanted to breed moyens, wouldn't they be better off breeding over-grown minis rather than looking for small standards? I know very little about breeding, but it seems to me that large minis would be more "of a kind" and healthier, as perhaps the large ones are the largest and strongest from a given litter. 

Small standards, from a standard line, might be the smallest dogs in the litter, and perhaps not as healthy. Maybe they were more easily pushed aside by their litter-mates and didn't nurse as well, or something. 

I'm just thinking out loud here, but does that theory make sense to anyone?

That said, I saw some overgrown toys when I was looking, and they looked absolutely terrible - long spindly legs supporting a delicate toy body. They looked like they were walking on stilts. The ones I'm thinking of were 12 to 13", definitely in the mini-size range, but they came from toy parents. 

For some reason the overgrown minis don't seem to do that; the ones I've seen still have good proportion and structure, at 16 to 17". Maybe because an inch or two more than 15" is a smaller proportion "wrong" than is an inch or two over a desired 10" for a toy.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs

Poodles in Canada are all one Variety just different sizes - the registration papers just say Poodle. One of the problems of breeding standards to minis is adding new diseases.

A few years ago a very well known breeder bred a mini to a standard and produced a litter that now carried a gene for von Willebrand disease (vWD).

This was not a known mini health problem at the time. That is one of the problems of mixing Standards with Minis. Standards are not tested for PRA. Unless I am mistaken the DNA test for PRA is NOT for standards.

In my opinion using a name other than the proper ones for the country the dog was born in is a marketing gimmick.


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## Beach girl

That's a good point about introducing new diseases.


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## vikinglady

Cdnjennga said:


> The reality is while the Poodle is one breed, the three sizes have quite different looks, temperaments and health problems. "
> 
> I'm new to this poodle world, so please forgive me if this question is really stupid or obvious to all of you. I'm aware of the different looks and health problems in the 3 different sizes, but thought that the temperaments of the standard and miniature were alike. What differences in temperament have those who are familiar with both found?


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## Jeremy

Regarding the three sizes vs four sizes:

European Toys and Standards are = to English/American Toys and Standards.
The "confusion" is with the middle sizes, which in Europe are frequently interbred, the issue being registered according to adult size. It is not at all uncommon to come across top winning dogs with a Medium mother and Dwarf father from Toy breeding. 
So:

"Dwarf" = oversized Toy, akin to any 12" or 11" from Toy breeding. 
"Medium" = Miniatures, from the 'usual' English/American size but allowing (perhaps even favouring) those 16" that pop up in almost every lineage sometime or another. The Moyen should not really be considered a size apart from the Miniature; the European height limits should just be considered more generous in accepting all Mins instead of placing an annoying cut off point (for there are many oversized Mins of great quality who could no doubt contribute alot more to the breed if the height limit was slightly higher). 

Note how European Mediums such as those from Canmoys, Warming, and various other kennels gel easily into English, American and Australian breeding. Note also how oversized Toys from both England and America are frequently exported to Europe, registered as Dwaves and bred with local stock of the three smaller sizes.


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## Beach girl

Very good points. I'd be happy to see the American regulations re-visited and just change the "Miniature" sizing to accept up to 17". That would solve the problem. 

It's interesting that according to the PCA regulations, "diminutiveness is to be preferred," but it obviously isn't. No one that I'm aware of deliberately breeds minis down to the 11" and 12" range; they all want to hit the very top of the range at 14" and 15", thus of course fairly often getting dogs that mature to 16" or a bit more.


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