# Lumi's Luxating Patella : (



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

So, Lumi's Luxating Patella is back with a vengeance! She was originally diagnosed as a little puppy, around 9 weeks (with no symptoms), and then after several visits for vaccs, the vet said it was getting better and better and was finally undetectable. So I got a second opinion from another vet who told me she seemed to have perfect knees without no luxation. Yay! Right? Nope. A few weeks later and she's limping a LOT and the vet now tells me she has luxation in both knees. : ( I am so sad. She's just a baby (about 8 months now), and already has a medical condition! I feel terrible and can't stop thinking about it and what I should do. 

She's on Cosequin (glucosamine) and another hip and joint supplement by Halo. We have an appointment with an orthopedic vet on Thursday and I'm going to try to find a hollistic vet (or any vet who can help me with her diet) since I cook for her and want to make sure I'm feeding her the best I can. Also, since it only took a week or two to go from not happening at all to happening dozens of times a day I figure she's probably aggravating the problem by all her puppying around (even though she's not a jumper). So, I have her on "leash lockdown" with no running or bopping about allowed. She's coping pretty well as long as I keep the treats coming. : P Unfortunately, since Alita (my kitty) enjoys their playtime as much as Lumi does, she taunts Lumi to no end trying to get her riled up and chasing after her! Haha At least this is giving us a lot of opportunities to practice heeling with distractions! I plan to step up her walking and maybe incorporate swimming after I talk to the vet on Thursday about how much is safe. I've been reading in a lot of places that strong leg muscles help to keep the patella in place. I'm also open to taking her to a chiropractor, acupuncturist, massage therapist, etc. 

Fortunately, it doesn't seem to be very painful for her. : ) I've read that it's usually only painful (or at least the most painful) when it slips out or back into place, but not necessarily the whole time it's out of place. They just hold the leg up because it's not very functional until the patella goes back. Either way, Lumi doesn't seem to notice when it happens, so that's comforting enough. : ) I'm still worried about long-term problems like arthritis.

So, anyone have experience with their pup's luxating patella to share? Did anything work for you - surgery, non-surgery? Any suggestions or advice? I'm so stressed out. 

Here are some pictures since we haven't been on in forever. I just chopped off most of her puppy fluff. : / The coat change is causing so much matting and since we're not showing after all, I thought I'd give us both a break from the high maintenance long 'do. She looks SO grown up to me now!


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I am so sorry to hear Lumi is having this problem. Although Swizzle does not have this issue I try to do what I can to prevent it from becoming an issue. I give him beef trachea and chicken feet as they have a lot of connective tissue and naturally have a lot of chondroitin in them so it is good for the joints (I confirmed this with my vet). The Cosequin is great. I don't give this to my dog but my brother-in-laws dog had severe arthritis from Lyme's disease and his dog went from not be able to climb two stairs to being able to climb a flight of stairs. The right kind of exercise makes sense. I know if a person has knee problems but they strengthen the muscles around the knee it can make a big difference. Lumi looks adorable, as usual. I am glad to hear this is not causing her any pain.


----------



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Lumi is so cute! And so sorry for her odd diagnoses.


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

Beau has also received two different opinions about his knees, from two vets. I'm pretty sure his patellas do luxate (because the first vet put my finger on Beau's knee so I could feel it happen), but as of 2-1/2 years old, he has never shown any obvious symptoms, like limping or holding his leg up. He hasn't even skipped a beat when walking -- and I watch like a hawk for such things.

My understanding is that diet can maybe help slow progress, but once you start seeing physical symptoms, surgery is pretty much necessary to prevent long-term damage to the joint. The second vet, holistic as can be, told me for now to just watch and wait. So that's what I'm doing. I wonder constantly if I'm doing the right thing by following this advice, even though I'm of course relieved not to have to deal with surgery and -- most scary of all -- a lengthy recovery for a dog that cannot walk! (Both his knees would need to be done, and it seems doing them at the same time is advisable.)

Good luck with whatever you decide, and please keep us posted!


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Thanks so much for the feedback. : ) I'll admit I was hoping for loads of "It just healed on it's own!" stories - haha - but I'm a hopeless holistic. : P I'm just so frustrated that only about a month ago I had a vet assuring me that her knees felt fine, and now we're not going five steps without a limp. : ( How could it happen so fast? Since the vet found the luxation she told me to let Lumi behave normally and that playing and romping about was fine, just don't let her jump or play the chase game we play with the cat toy (of course now I'm thinking I *caused* her luxating patella with that running game I posted on here before!), and I followed orders for a few days. But it popped out of place so often that I decided to give her less freedom. I've only had her on the "leash lockdown" since yesterday, so I'm *hoping* at least she'll be aggravating it less and maybe she can recover a bit even if it can't really heal. I called the ortho vet today to see if I could get in earlier than Thursday, and they couldn't swing it, but they did tell me I was doing the right thing by keeping her on leash. I just want Thursday to be here and I want them to give me a big old list of things I can do for her! I feel so helpless!

I think I'll fill up the tub for her tonight and see if she enjoys swimming in it (the beauty of a toy breed!). I've held her over it a few times while it was full (but containing non-dog-friendly soap) and she starts paddling with all four feet and seems very eager to get in! Hahaha If she enjoys it I'd be happy to make it part of her exercise regime. : )

LEUllman, from what I've read the damage is done while the patella is popping in and out of place, as it wears away and/or stretches out the surrounding tissues. And that would mean if Beau isn't showing signs of luxation, he's also probably not having any damage done. I hope I'm right! : )


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Swimming is a great non-stressful way to strenghten her muscles and hopefully hold her patellas in place. I know swimming therapy is used a lot with horses.


----------



## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Do they do surgery for this? She seems so young to have the problem.  I am glad it isn't causing any pain.


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

I have an Italien Greyhound, Pixie, who had a luxating patella in only one knee. Symptoms didn't manifest until she was about four or so, and then it was her holding up that leg and going three-legged for a while. This would happen randomly, but usually on grass or while crossing the dog walk in Agility.

Pixie's luxation was relatively mild, but, as a performance dog, she needs to be in optimal condition. I elected to have the surgery done. (I'll share the cost of it if you PM me; it wasn't cheap, but it wasn't outrageously expensive, either.) There was a period of recovery, and the Pixie was back in the ring, better than ever!

To this day, Pixie will sometimes walk on three legs in cold grass, lifting that "bad" leg, but I think that's more due to habit. She is still sound in the Agility ring at 9 years old, and I'm glad I went ahead and had it done.

Hope this helps. Luxating patellas are, sadly, common in many toy breeds. 

--Q


----------



## LEUllman (Feb 1, 2010)

@Quossum, can you tell us a bit about how Pixie's post surgery recovery went?


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Eve is really a special case according to the vets lol, at least in most cases. Eve was diagnosed at 6wks, but I didnt get her onto supp till she was like 1.5yrs. I asked a diff vet to grade her knees and she said they were a grade 2 and 3 with her left knee the worst. Never any signs of limping or anything, but she rec a supp.. I asked about surgery and she felt the 3 knee was an iffy knee, and may benefit from surgery.. Of all the supps she rec I put her on Nupro joint supp. at least in the mean time. When she wa 5 her knee popped out once and she limped around until she popped it back in. Her knee pops in and out now if I try to stack her of if she's humping her bear lol. 

I had her regraded a 1.5y ago, and her knees on the Nupro improved to a grade 1 and 2 knee . I had to take her off of it a while back because she developed food allergies. And I can tell a difference, esp when I got her on Cosequin after being off any joint supps for so long.. I think both supps are great.. I like Nupro better for the extra vit and min, and it sprinkles on food and turns into a gravy when you add water. My girls love the Nupro. Since she's been sick shes been off of supps again, but will be getting her back on it now that she is better!


----------



## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

Sure: For a couple of weeks, she was crated. She had a split-type apparatus over her leg, wrapped in an Ace bandage of sorts. She could actually walk in it, though very stiffly. I kept her in a soft-sided crate with a top opening so I could reach in and lift her out easily.

After those couple of weeks, she could slowly start walking more, still with the splint. I think in about...four or maybe six weeks or so she went back in for a check. Then the splint was off, but no jumping or anything allowed. I started back to work very slowly, with longer walks, then tiny jumps. I think all-in-all we wer only off from showing for about four months. Just a fraction of time in the big scheme of things.

I have a friend with a small dog who had both knees done at once. Her dog's recovery time was longer, but she's still glad she did it.

I think I'm remembering time spans correctly; it's been a few years!

--Q


----------



## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

LadySH thank you for the information on supplements. Swizzle does not have a patella problem but I don't think it would be a bad idea to start him on one as a preventative. Are there any negatives to doing this? I hope Fractured Circle sees this thread. I know one of her toys recently had this operation, I think on both knees, she could probably tell us more. Thanks Q, it sounds like your dog had a great result with his operation.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Hi all! Thank you for your support and your pups' stories! It's very helpful and comforting. : ) 

Lumi's ortho appointment went as well as could be expected. : ) The vet does not recommend surgery at this time, (or any time if it doesn't get worse). She had a really hard time popping one of her knees out (which made me kind of wish she'd stop trying, but I guess she had to do it..), and that right there is an improvement from her last vet visit about a week before when it readily popped out. I scheduled an appointment for next week with a physical therapist and can't wait to get my "homework" from her! I've lightened up on the leash restriction, even though it was working and the ortho vet agreed, just because it's breaking my heart to not let her do her usually frolicking about. But, I still leash her when she gets overly enthusiastic or actually starts limping. I figure there's no need to be a total nazi about it until we get our exercises from the therapist and then at least she's getting a healthy outlet for play and exercise.

Some interesting stuff I learned: Cosequin is the one of few glucosamine supplements that emulsifies (I think that's the word) the product so that it's readily absorbed and not just passed through. It's the only one she recommends. Also, waiting until after sexual maturity to spay helps ensure proper bone growth and development, and she told me she was glad Lumi wasn't spayed yet. Standing on rear legs (though not twirling and dancing on them) and walking up stairs or other inclines is actually good for muscle development and not harmful to dog with patella issues. But, on that note, she said that it can be individual to each dog and if there's a certain behavior that tends to trigger luxation in your dog, avoid that one (or whatever your physical therapist recommends to do about it). With Lumi it's definitely quick turns that cause it, like when she's chasing the cats or bouncing in circles on top of her toys (it's kind of hard to describe, haha).

Oh, and I did fill the tub for her that night and let her swim! Sort of. She was actually a little scared to not be able to stand, so I only made the water as high as her shoulders. She had fun! I even let her towel/air dry to spare her the dryer (she doesn't love it), so she looked like a little lamb afterwords. Unfortunately, she must have been gulping water with ever retrieve or something because she peed about a quart of water over the following hour or so at 10 to 15 minute intervals. And she was SO tuckered that she actually peed on my couch AND my bed! She's never done that before. I think she was just full of water. Be careful if you try that with your pups! Maybe don't let them play for too long (she was in there probably 45 minutes to an hour), so they don't have time to drink so much or get so exhausted! I'm hoping that was just a rookie mistake (first time swimming for her), and she won't make a habit of drinking every time she grabs a ball! Haha Still, she seemed very happy. I took her out of the tub and wrapped her in a towel and she passed right out! Then she woke up and peed on the couch. : P Here's her snuggly-sleepy pic, and a sneak peak at what we did today. : ) That will have its own thread with more pics, but I don't have time right now to post it. So, y'all can just get excited. ; )


----------



## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

Thank you, PammiPoodle, for taking the time to share yours and Lumi's experiences. I'm sure your story will help many other people.


----------



## RileysMommy (Jul 18, 2011)

As if Lumi wasnt already too cute for words...you made her PINK! LOVE IT!!


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I think, not positive that pups have movable joints like that. Ever watch a baby, they can do the splits since they were born, can contort into various shapes one did not know was possible & then you wish you could have some of that flexibility back in your own body. My son (6)is in gymanstics so he keeps up his flexibility but it is still nothing like it was when he was a baby.

I think they can go through stages & hopefully as your pup ages, with restrictions the knees will tighten up. I had Louisa's knee's checked for OFA at 9 months when the vet tries to slide the knee around. She had 1 already tightened up & 1 that could go either way- vet said if she was 1 year or older she would have a passing certificate. Now that Louisa is over 1 year I am going to another clinic soon to get her LP done & verified. I really want to know so I can do Agility with her. Right now I only do Rally, so no forced jumping. Louisa though doesn't show signs of any slipage & I groom loads of dogs with LP, so know at least the ease of knees sliding about.

When Lumi goes to the groomer please let your groomer know. I am sure they will appreciate the heads up. Also post on Poodle Pedigree. Do you know if Lumi's Sire & Dam had LP certificates? I don't think in any way you did anything to cause LP since it was noted that she had it as a wee pup. Keep up with the leash & restrictions & the swimming is fantastic. All the muscle is good for the legs.


----------



## oceanrose (Sep 10, 2011)

I came to poodles from a breed that had a lot of patella problems, and have an 8 year old pomeranian with grade 2-3 knees.

Has Lumi come into season yet? 6-8 weeks before seasons, knees and all joints loosen. That's why a lot of breeders won't get x-rays taken of the hips right before the dog going into season. 

In addition, they tighten adn loosen as muscles grow and develop. 

Personally with the dogs that I've seen I won't do surgery unless the knees are popping out and staying out. I had a couple rescues come in with knees that were out all the time and clearly they had surgery. The others that you can palpate out, or the vet can don't generally need the surgery.

With my pom, I try to keep her on the thin side, keep her in good shape, never limit exercise, instead I encourage it. Her knees pop out every time I groom her but she's never had pain from it. My bet is once Lumi is a little older they'll go back to being a non issue . I hope so!!


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

3dogs, I think you're right. I read that most puppies have "loose knees" up to as late as 3 months. So when Lumi was diagnosed at under 3 months and then over the next few visits tightened up and then her knee caps couldn't be luxated, I really got my hopes up! This has only come back to us in about the past 2 weeks. It would be great if it's just puppy looseness even at this age! She's almost 9 months now.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding your vet visit right; Did your vet mean she expects that once Louisa is a year her knees will be tighter, and therefore she'll pass, or does she mean that she would pass even with one slightly loose knee, but you still have to wait until she's a year old to get the certificate? Please let me know how your next visit goes! : ) I'm trying to understand this. I'm so glad she's not having any issues with her knee. 

I am Lumi's groomer. : ) For the most part it doesn't effect her groom, but we've had a few sessions where it just kept popping out so she was standing crooked and we just had to call it a day. I'm not certain if her parents have those certificates. Which makes me feel really stupid since I shopped around for a *long* time and thought I was being very thorough! But, I asked if there was any history of luxating patella in her dogs or Lumi's line, if her parents have it, etc., I just didn't specifically inquire about certification! Oops.. I sent the breeder an email a few days ago asking, and am waiting to hear back. I could call her (we do still chat about Lumi every month or so), but I almost feel rude asking or like she'll think I'm trying to blame her or something. Ugh. it's silly, I know! I'll post on Poodle Pedigree in the future, that's a good idea!

Oceanrose, no, she hasn't had a heat yet, so maybe that's what's happening! Do they stay loose until the heat arrives/is over, or just for a window 6-8 weeks prior?

When you say "I won't do surgery" do you mean literally, because you're a vet, or do you mean choosing to have surgery done for your dogs?

I'm so glad your Pom isn't painful from his condition! I see it a lot in Poms on the grooming table. Poor guys! Yes, I also hope Lumi grows out of this. : )

All of these suggestions of it *not* being LP are going to my head! I'm getting my hopes up, so I should be careful. : P


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

CT Girl said:


> LadySH thank you for the information on supplements. Swizzle does not have a patella problem but I don't think it would be a bad idea to start him on one as a preventative. Are there any negatives to doing this? I hope Fractured Circle sees this thread. I know one of her toys recently had this operation, I think on both knees, she could probably tell us more. Thanks Q, it sounds like your dog had a great result with his operation.


Your welcome CT Girl, 
I think having swizzle on joint supplements is fine and can only be beneficial. I have my mini on the Nupro Joint supplement even tho she has no joint issues. She is a very athletic dog that when she gets excited likes to jump up and down, and will run like the wind if she has the room lol. Joint supp are good for dogs with joint issues, or working/athletic dogs that will keep them in tip top shape. I say this from experience that the Nupro Joint supplement is every bit as good as Cosequin.. perhaps the extra strength Cosequin is better than Nupro? All I know is that Eve went from grade 2 and 3 knees to grade 1 and 2, and that Fergie is 4yrs old and impresses judges with her attitude and conditioning.. even tho I dont execise her as much as I should.. I give all the thanks to the Nupro. Plus I really dont even measure the Nupro.. I eye it(its a powder with its own scoop and toss it in fergie's food. Cant exactly OD.. unless I suppose if they eat the whole container lol.. I wouldnt bother with Cosequin unless you have joint issues or if the pup is older as it is a bit pricey. I have to have Eve on cosequin cause she is allergic to the Nupro(food allergies). It is a really good product and highly rec by vets.


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

PammiPoodle said:


> When you say "I won't do surgery" do you mean literally, because you're a vet, or do you mean choosing to have surgery done for your dogs?


Oceanrose, rereading this I'm afraid it might've sounded facetious or like a grammar correction (maybe I'm a little paranoid!). I was seriously asking if you're a vet. : ) It would be great to have had a vet weighing in on Lumi's situation!

Ladyscarletthawk, my vet didn't compare Nupro to Cosequin. I specifically asked her about it, but she hadn't heard of it. It may be just as good or better! I just learned that Cosequin is highly effective and meets certain standards that most glucosamine supplements for pets do not, since they're not required. I just wanted to put in a good word for Cosequin, not a bad word against anything else. : ) Your testimony makes me want to use Cosequin *and* Nupro!

So, Lumi and I met the physical therapist today. It was very informative! We have lots of exercising, stretching, and massaging in our future. I got some bad news, though. According to the therapist, Lis, Lumi's painful ALL OVER!! Lumi was very outspoken as Lis felt various places on her body. She says Lumi's muscles are very sore, tense, and knotted up due to overcompensating for both of her rear legs. I feel terrible and now I'm so glad she started limping, since I otherwise would have never found this out!! I don't know if some of you remember, but I've posted in the past about behavior issues with Lumi including her being very snappy and averse to touching and the mildest of restraint. Now it seems that could all be because she hurts! : ( Lis says that with the techniques she taught me today the pain should be relieved within a week or two. : ) 

One of the most difficult adjustments we're going to have to make is limiting Lumi's shaking or "killing" of her toys. She loves to do that and runs around shaking her toys nearly all day! She always does it when we play tug! I guess I just need to keep her toys up. : ( I didn't ask, but I'm assuming once she gets back in shape she can do more of that again. Lis told me it contributes to tightening her neck and shoulders, which are currently already overworked from overcompensating for her weak hind legs. I'll still let her do it sometimes, but she can't just kill her toys all day anymore. Maybe I'll let her go to town just before our sessions so she can get "readjusted" right afterward! 

I'm so sad to find out she's so ouchie, but also very curious to see how this effects her "grouchy" tendencies. I'll feel both terrible and wonderful if Lumi becomes a more tolerant pup over the next few weeks. : )

Here's to turning the grooming table into a massage table!


----------



## 3dogs (Nov 3, 2010)

I am glad Lumi's 1st visit went well. I hope she enjoys her massages. 

I regards to your question the Vet that was doing LP at the clinic had said that if she was over 1 year of age she would pass the LP exam. Until that time when she was 9months the 1 knee could go either way- it could easily tighten or it could get looser. Personally I feel her joints are tight but I will see what the vet at the next LP clinic says. I really want to do Agility with this little one since she has great jumping & learning abiltiy but I don't want to push it if her joints aren't ready for it.

Here's hoping Lumi get's better with your magic hands & the therapists too.


----------



## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

PammiPoodle said:


> Ladyscarletthawk, my vet didn't compare Nupro to Cosequin. I specifically asked her about it, but she hadn't heard of it. It may be just as good or better! I just learned that Cosequin is highly effective and meets certain standards that most glucosamine supplements for pets do not, since they're not required. I just wanted to put in a good word for Cosequin, not a bad word against anything else. : ) Your testimony makes me want to use Cosequin *and* Nupro!


Beautiful pink color!! So jealous! Makes me want a white poo lol. Im glad she is getting help and hope her pain subsides soon.

And No Worries.. I never thought you were looking down on any other supplements . Cosequin IS a good product... as a matter of fact Eve is on it. For a pup like Lumi I would not discourage you to use the Cosequin.. I mainly mentioned The Nupro for the benefit of all to know about the product:

Nupro - Joint Support All Natural Dog Supplement

Nupro - Joint Support All Natural Dog Supplement

I should mention that I dont have any flea issues lol. Maybe cause of the Nupro *snicker*. I dont think it would be bad to give both since Nupro is better than Missing Link.. but they also make a Nupro with out the joint stuff too. Who am I kidding, I would prob give both if Eve's stuff was going bad lol. Anyway I hope she improves and I hope you and any other interested members like the Nupro info I attached.. read the testimonials. No pressure.. I only have Eve on the bonelets.. if her knees start to develop arthritis I will put her on the DS then


----------



## PammiPoodle (Jul 16, 2011)

Well, things have improved here with our new exercises. She still luxates, but the frequency has gone down. And, guess what? She *is* less grouchy now!! Amazing! I mean, not that she was a meanie, but she was a bit bratty. Now I realize she's had less tolerance than what I thought was normal because she's been achy.

We still have a long way to go, since she'll have these knees her whole life, unless we go for surgery, but here's hoping that luxation becomes less frequent after we're on this regime for good length of time! I have to admit, all this time I'm spending stretch and massaging and exercising her is reminding me that I have to do this for myself! She's using my yoga blocks more than me!!

Here's a video of Lumi doing her stretches. I just emailed it to our physical therapist so she can tell me if we're doing it right. I'll probably record all the exercises eventually just to get the okay from her that our at home routine is on the right track! : P I always wanted to have a pair or trio of dogs (now POODLES!), but I honestly don't know how I'd have time for a second!! Hahahaha


----------



## starpoodle (Aug 6, 2011)

Lumi is lucky to have you! You are doing a great job getting her to exercise. 

And wow, I love the job you did grooming her. She's so pretty in pink:angel2:.


----------



## georgiapeach (Oct 9, 2009)

Potsie is nearly 4 years old, and he has luxating patellas in both back knees. He's a grade 4 in one knee and a 3-4 in the other, which is not good. The grade 4 is never in place, popping back out immediately after being manipulated back into place. The other knee is nearly as bad. The vet can't believe that he's not in pain! I'm glad, b/c surgery is definitely NOT in our budget!! 

Potsie has the appearance of walking with his knees facing out slightly, but amazingly enough, he doesn't skip when walking/running or limp! I give him a fish oil capsule and 1/2 tablet of Cosequin DS (initially, he got a whole tablet to load his system, as recommended in the directions).

My vet said that it's *crucial* to keep Potsie slim to avoid any additional joint stress, so I watch his weight like a hawk. He's supposed to weigh 13 pounds or less, and he weighs 12.8, so all is good right now.


----------

