# Breeder wants my boy back...but...I can't do it....



## lawsjl (Dec 24, 2012)

I posted this as a reply to my thread hoping it would go to the top, it didn't. So I am posting again so more see it. Sorry if it is redundant, I am not real familiar with how the threads work.

Well, what a change of events. The breeder isn't at all on board with being part of his placement and wants him back.

The thing is...her advise she gave me to handle some issues I had with him were absolutely horrible. I refused to do them when they were suggested and was blown away that any human would do, let alone tell someone else to do to a puppy.

I can't with part of my being send this little one back to her. Does everyone want to know the way to stop a puppy from barking in a crate....
(copied from her email)

The mother dog/wolf allows no bad behavior from her off spring. Younger babies are picked up by the back of the neck or head & shaken until they pee. When my puppies are learning crate manners, I bang the crate & SCREAM NO. If that doesn’t work, I open the door & bang my hand on the floor or the crate & SCREAM NO. If that doesn’t work , I pick up the puppy & shake it while I SCREAM NONONONO until the puppies pees. Urination is the ultimate submission. With your puppy, because he is not a type ‘A’, I did the crate bag & the floor of the crate bang [this is really scary as the banging on the floor or the crate is moving his whole world like an earthquake].

Later I got this email subject reading 'Height'

Lisa, I looked at the ottoman that I used the one time I had to push the crate off & it is just over 1 foot high. As long as you have lots of ‘stuff’ in the crate he will only be scared not hurt.

This is a very highly regarded breeder with some of the Grandest of Grand Champions. I could go on and on but I just wanted to share why I have chosen NOT to send him back to her. Legally I will bear the ramifications if it comes down to that. I want him in a loving home where he's treated like a precious little puppy not a wolf!

Am I opening a can of worms that I will not be able to get out of? Seems to me that what she is describing is abuse. Would the AKC and PCA condone this if they knew? Just wondering?

Thanks for all of the support, would love to hear thoughts about my decisions.

If anyone wants to know who this breeder is send me a private message and I will share. I don't think I can share on the forum.


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Omg! Please find somewhere else to live with your puppy.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

this sounds like a scenario out of a horror movie for puppy owners. i am confused, though, why does the breeder want your puppy back?


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## lawsjl (Dec 24, 2012)

I am moving and can't take him. No pets allowed and very few rentals available this time of year. Not a pet friendly area that I live in. I am devastated, but no matter what I can't send him back to her.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

okay i see your other thread now. one of the members here offered in that thread to foster him. why not talk to her about that?


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Um yeah...that obviously worked for crying in the crate. There are WAY better alternatives. I don't think anyone with AKC or PCA would condone that type of behavior however if the dogs are groomed, fed, have access to water and accurate breeding records there really isn't much they can do as dogs are considered property. He may well be terrified of the crate. Yes there may be legal ramifications for you but I wouldn't return a dog to that environment either. 

Working with a dog that has crate or separation anxiety as your pup likely does can be a challenge for sure. I haven't read it but I've heard rave reviews about the Crate Games book. I am currently dealing with my son's dog that has separation anxiety. He hated the crate and actually chewed his way out of a hard crate previously. Unfortunately he also ate the wall in my sons apartment. I have had him about a week so far while my son is out of town and now he loves the crate. He gets a super yummy treat anytime he goes in. When I leave the house and at night he gets a frozen Kong filled with peanut butter. Now I can tell him crate and he runs into it with joy and immediately lays down. I will say that he gets much more exercise here playing with two of my three dogs and I am home most of the day and can correct the barking and screaming when he starts. My correction is "uhh uhh quiet." When he quiets I offer praise and I don't let him out until he is completely quiet. 

I can't imagine doing this and working full time. It just wouldn't be possible, hence the destruction in the apartment. It sounds as if you may have to relocate? For that I am very sorry. Perhaps doggie daycare or staying with a friend or family member during the day that is willing to work with him. If those are not options I would willingly rehome him and damned the consequences with the breeder. 

I'm sorry you are going through this and I do hope you find a solution. Shame on the breeder!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## poolann (Jan 31, 2013)

Sorry I just read your original post on the other thread. Probably not the best advice and certainly not legal so this is just my 2¢. Place him if you absolutely must move and can't find a place where you can take him. Have him neutered first and don't tell her. You could even go so far as to send proof of the neuter and request his papers. The new family doesn't need the papers this is just to make you more believable. I know this is bad advice but better than the alternative.

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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

I am just appalled! Don't return him...............find a temp. foster and then look harder til you find a place where he can join you!!!!! Post an 'needed to rent ad' in your local paper, call real estate offices for pet friendly rentals......I know here we have a few companies that handle pet rentals exclusively! Something will come up, just don't limit yourself! Good Luck!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Sounds like a sad situation that keeps getting sadder, so sorry! Have you asked your vet, your mpoo's groomer and the local pet food supply stores for leads on good (temporary or permanent) homes for your pup? I would reach out to PCA National Rescue Chairperson Cindy Crawley. You can send her an email and tell her everything! [email protected] She does a phenomenal job, has great resources and is a wealth of information. Sadly you're not the first (or likely to be the last) poodle owner in such a bind. There _is_ a solution and you _can_ work you way to it! I don't want to know who the breeder is. I'm content knowing_ you_ are as good-hearted as you are and will put the pup's welfare first. Good luck with everything!:clover:


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

That is absolutely horrific!!

I am so sorry you are having to deal with a move, placing your baby and dealing with whatever twisted logic that breeder is dishing out. I so wish I lived close enough to babysit your love for you until you got settled. 

I wish you and yours all the best and am praying you find a calm, safe home that will allow you to keep your sweet poodle.


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## N2Mischief (Dec 3, 2012)

I would be happy to foster if we could get him to California!


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## honda123 (May 29, 2014)

lawsjl said:


> The mother dog/wolf allows no bad behavior from her off spring. Younger babies are picked up by the back of the neck or head & shaken until they pee. When my puppies are learning crate manners, I bang the crate & SCREAM NO. If that doesn’t work, I open the door & bang my hand on the floor or the crate & SCREAM NO. If that doesn’t work , I pick up the puppy & shake it while I SCREAM NONONONO until the puppies pees. Urination is the ultimate submission. With your puppy, because he is not a type ‘A’, I did the crate bag & the floor of the crate bang [this is really scary as the banging on the floor or the crate is moving his whole world like an earthquake].
> 
> Later I got this email subject reading 'Height'
> 
> Lisa, I looked at the ottoman that I used the one time I had to push the crate off & it is just over 1 foot high. As long as you have lots of ‘stuff’ in the crate he will only be scared not hurt..


All dog psychology books promote that the crate is supposed to be a SAFE PLACE, a SAFE haven for a puppy.

That breeder's advice is one of the most cruel I have ever heard.

We have connections with Rescues all over USA and Canada. Please, pm me. We could foster, and personally know some people who would be great owners.


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## lawsjl (Dec 24, 2012)

*May have found a home....*

Thanks to everyone who posted and private messaged me. It's unanimous that it is horrible treatment of a puppy. I sure hope someone that doesn't know better wouldn't listen to that advise and do that to a poor innocent puppy. As mentioned several times, a crate is a safe haven not a place to abuse a small puppy.

I may have found a wonderful home for him. I am waiting for their decision. It would be so great for him, better than Perfect! My knowing he will be loved, cherished and adored is all I need to make it through this. I know he would be with this family. Just have to wait and see what they decide.

The outreach has been amazing here and I appreciate all of you for your help, reassurance, and guidance to some great options. 

This is the greatest place with truly caring people. We love our poo's indeed 

Thank you again from the bottom of my heart...will keep all updated.

Huge Poodle Hugs to all,
Lisa


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## Beaches (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank heavens.


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

Good news! Hope it works out!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Wow that is horrific stuff that the breeder advocates doing. It is all so antithetical to what crate training is all about. I am glad it seems as though you may have a good solution in the works, but am sorry it means you will likely give up your pretty little boy. What the breeder said by email about how to get the pup to be quiet in the crate explains a lot. Do you have any kind of leeway to try the crate games before you finalize your plans to see if you can get your boy to accept the crate?

Separately I am sure you didn't know anything about her psychologically (and borderline physically) abusive methods before you got your pup. I hope you can find a way to get the word out that this person should not get business from others.


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## jazzipoodle (Mar 30, 2010)

I certainly hope the new home for your pup works out. Whoever you got your puppy from doesn't need to have dogs!


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## Carolinek (Apr 2, 2014)

Hope everything works out- that's a breeder to stay away from. Poor dogs.


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## BorderKelpie (Dec 3, 2011)

Although I am so sorry you have had to place your pup, I am glad you found a home you can be comfortable with.

Please invite the new owners to join us and therefore give you another way to keep up with him. 

Best wishes to you!


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## Indiana (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm glad you found a good home! Hope it works out. I don't think it would be easy for a breeder to follow up if you found a good home and didn't tell her any more about the situation, so I wouldn't worry about ramifications too much if I were you. Especially since you're moving; just don't give her your new location info. And if he's neutered, she won't care about getting him back, is my suspicion.


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I read this thread late. I feel sorry for all the other pups the breeder has treated similarly.......glad it sounds like you have a good solution.


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## nethania (Aug 6, 2014)

OMG! This is absolutely barbaric and it sounds like the best way to raise a neurotic and fearful dog. If you can't find a place where you can keep him I think you should find someone to foster or rehome him with, but I would absolutely NOT return him to this monstrous person!


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

This thread is fairly old. The OP has found a family that will be adopting her puppy soon. It will be a good ending.


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## nethania (Aug 6, 2014)

I noticed how old the post was after my reply. I'm so glad she has a happy ending and didn't return the pup to the breeder. I feel bad for the breeders other puppies.


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