# I am a horrible person.



## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Why not name it in a post. What is the rule?


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

petitpie said:


> Why not name it in a post. What is the rule?


I don't think it is a forum rule. But people have gotten sued over complaining about a product or service in internet forum. I don't want to risk it.


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## Dallasminis (Feb 6, 2011)

Poor Jet! What's the next step in taking care of her eyes? No, you're not horrible, but, boy that product is!

Please let us know about your baby!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

Awww, I'm really sorry that happened.  Poor Jet. Don't beat yourself up, you didn't know!! Of course you trusted the label when it said it was for dogs....I would have done the exact same thing! And I'm positive Jet doesn't blame you.  Hope he feels all better soon and that no permanent damage is done!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

He's getting Vetropolycin ointment. He's cheerful and running around playing. He seems to be able to see and chase a hi-vis ball just fine. His eyes are goupy and cloudy looking.

Ty, btw.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

So sorry this happened. It's too bad we have to watch what manufacturers are selling us. Hope Jet has a speedy recovery.


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## bigpoodleperson (Jul 14, 2009)

Awww, poor little guy!!!! I once flushed Rileys eyes with what I thought was saline solution. Well, I realized a couple seconds into it that I was flushing his eyes with alcohol/peroxide ear mixture I made!! :ahhhhh: I felt Horrible!!!! It must have stung so bad, but Riley didnt complain or pull away at all (he was such a good boy!). I immediatly flushed with saline, but I felt so bad!! 
The ulcers should clear up fine. Riley had ulcers with his dry eye (KCS) before, and then had them from his entropion. They all cleared up fine. Hugs to your little trooper!!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

The ingredients list: Purified Water, VP/VA Copolymer, Glycerin, Aloe Vera, Acacia Honey, DMDM Hydantoin

VP/VA Copolymer is tested in eyes for safety:
COSMETICSINFO.ORG - Your source for safety information about cosmetics and personal care products

Acacia products are GRAS.

Glycerin is GRAS and approved for use in the eyes:
COSMETICSINFO.ORG - Your source for safety information about cosmetics and personal care products

The only thing I can guess is the DMDM Hydatoin concentration was high in that batch? COSMETICSINFO.ORG - Your source for safety information about cosmetics and personal care products 2-Health Effects of Formaldehyde Solutions : OSH Answers


*sigh*

I am so frustrated right now. My fiance is all crabby and saying stuff like "admit it, you ****ed up, don't try to blame it on the manufacturer" :argh:  He's going shopping alone today.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

How is what happened NOT the manufacturer's product!


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## faerie (Mar 27, 2010)

is that the full ingredient list? 
the thing that ****s me to tears about animal grooming products is that they don't require labeling like they do for human products. they can conveniently leave something out on the description/labeling.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

faerie said:


> is that the full ingredient list?
> the thing that ****s me to tears about animal grooming products is that they don't require labeling like they do for human products. they can conveniently leave something out on the description/labeling.





> Great for styling and finishing pet hair. This dog hair styling gel will help you put the finishing touches on any grooming job. Use this water-based dog hair gel to sculpt hair for top knots, or create your own unique designs.





> Gel is in a 4 oz jar. Ingredients: Purified Water, VP/VA Copolymer, Glycerin, Aloe Vera, Acacia Honey, DMDM Hydantoin


This is the only information given when ordering the product. They usually have MSDS sheets and safety information available. 

The label says "avoid contact with eyes". Really? I have 19 products in my bathroom that are made to be applied to the face or hair (including foundation!) that are labeled "avoid contact with eyes." I've gotten them in my eyes (who hasn't?), it stings for a second, rinse it out and that's it.

"Avoid contact with eyes" is NOT an appropriate warning for this product!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I've never seen such manufacturer disregard for product and public safety as we have now.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

So sorry this happend to you and your dog. I know he will be gettin the best of care and I hope he is well soon.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

I do hope you are contacting the manufacturer. Boy, would I be mad, too. I am so sorry for your pup. ouch, Luckily eyes heal fast!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

The "bad" eye is better looking already. I did some more reading and the layer of the outer layer of the eye is 5 - 7 cell layers deep, it if is damaged, the cornea will turn cloudy. I am so hoping that this ulcer is 8 cell layers deep. I guess these ulcers can take months to heal, but his don't look nearly as bad as some I've seen at the vet clinic.

He's bright and playful, acting "like himself". This one is too cute to not share:


J and Jet by tortoise11, on Flickr

I'm guessing the CERF exam next month is a no-go? :sad:

Thanks for well-wishes. Reminds me that ever though there is heated debate on some topics, we're all trying to do the best thing for our dogs.


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## 2719 (Feb 8, 2011)

tortoise said:


> Thanks for well-wishes. Reminds me that ever though there is heated debate on some topics, we're all trying to do the best thing for our dogs.


Definitely...agree. Please don't beat yourself up...you love your poodle...and we know you only want the best. 

Sherry


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I am so glad he is feeling better, and it looks as if there will be no long term damage.

Would it be worth posting a warning in the grooming thread, listing the ingredients and the type of product? It may help others to avoid the same horrible experience. I know of a dog that suffered severe burn like injuries from shampoo, when her owner did not realise that it had to be diluted before application - I don't know whether the dog was super-sensitive, but she looked as if she had been scalded with boiling water. It took ages to heal, and 18 months later the hair has not grown back. Some of these "cosmetics" should be banned!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

fjm said:


> I am so glad he is feeling better, and it looks as if there will be no long term damage.
> 
> Would it be worth posting a warning in the grooming thread, listing the ingredients and the type of product? It may help others to avoid the same horrible experience. I know of a dog that suffered severe burn like injuries from shampoo, when her owner did not realise that it had to be diluted before application - I don't know whether the dog was super-sensitive, but she looked as if she had been scalded with boiling water. It took ages to heal, and 18 months later the hair has not grown back. Some of these "cosmetics" should be banned!


Oh no! That sounds horrible! :sad:

I will be calling the company in a couple hours. I cannot guarantee that I will be nice about it. I already emailed about returning products, but I need to call about my dog's reaction to it. I wonder what the vet bill will be? 2 emergency house calls, one after 10 pm, 2 exams, the cornea dye test, meds. yikes.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Poor wee guy! Hope he's okay. I'd be chasing the manufacturer too. 

Just out of curiosity, what's the toy in the photo?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

The signs sound good that your dog will suffer no lasting damage. You must be furious with the company that he had to go through this. You should not feel guilty - you were using a product for which it was intended and once you discovered the damage you did all the right things. I will be interested to hear what the company says. I understand you not feeling comfortable putting the name out on an open forum. Could you pm me the name? I would be a basket case if this happened to Swizzle.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

JE-UK said:


> Poor wee guy! Hope he's okay. I'd be chasing the manufacturer too.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, what's the toy in the photo?


It's a FurReal friends toy from a McDonald's Happy Meal. Best $0.50 I've spent at a thrift store. I think it's supposed to be a chocolate lab, but it looks like a gopher.  The dogs love it and don't chew it up. :shrug:

His eyes are cloudy this morning and he's been pawing at them. I had him rub his face against my hand to relieve the itching/irritation in hopes he wouldn't scratch his eye. I think it was morning goup in his eyes because they're clean now and he isn't fussing about them.

I'm having a rough day. I've slept 2 hours out of the last 48 - and I'm not tired,. Life is grand  Anyways, he noticed a change in pattern and this morning he's in my face and sniffing my breath. I don't get it, but he'll sniff my breath and either chill out and lean on me (very soothing), or he'll hop off the bed and go do whatever he does when I'm asleep. But the thing that I don't understand is he has never been wrong. If I'm OK he leaves. If I'm not fine he leans on me. Pressure is very soothing to me and affects me similarly as it does a person with autism. I still wonder if it is coincidence or if he's smelling something other than morning breath.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I am not feeling particularly friendly at the moment, so a good time to draft an email. I haven't sent it yet. What do you think?



> Since I sent the email below, my dog has been to the emergency vet twice for ulcerated corneas in both his eyes. The irritation started when he pawed his gel-ed topknot into his eye. I began irrigating his eyes with sterile eye solution and continued for 15 minutes. I got to the emergency vet who, at that point, couldn't see anything because of the irritation to his eyes. However, I had caught a glimse of his eye and saw it was cloudy. In the morning, the vet looked at him again and diagnosed corneal ulcers in both eyes. My dog now needs an eye ointment 3-4 times daily until his eyes clear. We won't know if he's lost vision until then.
> 
> On your website, there is NO caution, NO MSDS, nothing that would hint this product would be unsafe. Not even a picture of the back of the label. The package reads "Avoid contact with eyes." Well, I counted 19 products in my bathroom intended to be applied to my face with the label "avoid contact with eyes." As you can imagine I've gotten some of most of these products in my eyes over the years. I have never needed first aid or Dr. care for these, and they've never caused irritation, and certainly not ulcers!
> 
> ...


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

I am glad he is ok; but since the label said "Avoid contact with eyes" I guess I would have been more careful. That's just me --- but I am not a professional groomer.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes. I didn't realize the gel would dry so slowly compared to human hair gel. It is really gloppy and watery. I put it up in a band, it flopped over, I grabbed my comb and he pawed a tuft of wet gelly hair into his eye. If anything can go wrong...  I can't count the number of topknots I've put up with product, my growing-out-mommy-do and good clients come in once a week to reset topknots. I made the mistake of assuming a product would be labeled accurately. Seriously, I have a different spray that came with MSDS and very specific warnings to NOT get it into the dog's eyes. "Avoid contact with eyes" I perceive as "try not to get it in the eyes, but if you do rinse it out." because of my experence getting products with the same label into my eyes. I don't think I was careless at putting it in. If I were to use it again - which I'm not - I would put it in the same way but dry it immediately and hang onto the dog like you would a dog getting a flea dip :shudder: 

I am happy to say, "no we don't do flea baths or dips." We use an oral medication to kill adult fleas and send home Frontline+ for each pet in the home for 3 months and the Frontline+ guarantee information.


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

Im soo sorry your baby is suffering and hope he suffers no permanent damage to his eyes. As a groomer we have to be careful with our clients dogs. It is recommended to use pet made products because supposedly it is made for pets and we are to use it as intended. If I use a pet dye and use it as directed and the dog suffers from a skin reaction then we have a leg to stand on and the dye company should pay for vet bills, but if I accidentally get it in the eye when it says avoid contact with the eyes... then I have no choice but to pay for (well my insurance would) the vet bill.

Im not blaming you and Im not saying that the product you used is safe. What Im saying is it was an accident.. they happen. Im very sorry it happened to you and your baby. Never assume a product is safe for eyes if it states avoid eyes. Its a risk we take when we use foreign substances around our own eyes, but we have the luxury of deciding to use a product and taking that risk... Most of the time it turns out ok if we do get in our eyes, but may not always be the case.. I couldnt imagine getting toner in my eyes and you use that on your face everyday! 

Hell I was treating Eve's eye with some stuff from the vet, and one morning I was all groggy and grabbed my lens cleaner instead. It Hit me like a ton of bricks the second I did it! The bottle looked the same but it was a different colored cap!! I flushed her eye with half a bottle of opthalmic saline solution immediately, and then put the real drop in her eye. We were lucky and had no issues. YOu are not a bad mom, like I said. It was and ACCIDENT!

Let this be a lesson to all of us to be careful with even tearless shampoo, around our babies eyes. I have used a tearless that did irritate Eve's eye once... always flush your pup's eyes with opthalmic saline solution after a bath! Frankly I avoid people stuff with my client dogs, but when it comes to my own I use em all the time. If they have a reaction it would be my fault for using it yes, but I know that my girls are not sensitive per se(skin/coat). I think if it doesnt irritate my skin then it is less likely to irritate theirs, and for me at least.. I have had no issues. I hope the lil man feels better soon!

PS there are drops you can put in their eyes prior to bathing or what have you. It is supposed to protect the eyes from soap etc, but can leave an oily raccoon eyes. I think one is called safe eyes from either petedge or ryan's altho both carry a similar product.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I once got lens cleaner and my anti-histamine eyedops mixed up - definitely not a mistake you make twice!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

My mom had her glasses off and sprayed her hair thoroughly with hospital air sanitizer instead of hairspray! The stuff you spray a tiny bit in the center of the room and then have to stay out for 4 hours! I have no idea why she left it on the bathroom counter. 

We didn't go to church that morning. 

I get all my stuff in my eyes. I'm so blind without glasses/contacts and I'm always in a rush.  I guess I'm lucky I still have 'em, huh.

I had a thought today, trying to think of something safe and effective. How about clear mascara for those stray bit on topknots? brilliant or stupid?


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## Ladyscarletthawk (Dec 6, 2011)

I have heard some show people have used clear mascara for their stray hairs but never done so myself


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I don't use anything - if the topknot flops in the eyes cut it shorter! Ultra safe!


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## Chagall's mom (Jan 9, 2010)

I routinely, and carefully, use the following product with good results and no problems! :smile:

*Top Performance Hair Styling Gel -- Dog Hair Gel*

*Ingredients*: Purified Water, VP/VA Copolymer, Glycerin, Aloe Vera, Acacia Honey, DMDM Hydantoin


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## liljaker (Aug 6, 2011)

Gee, maybe you should become a professional groomer!!!!! Guess it was user error right? Can happen to anyone I guess, especially if you don't watch what you are doing.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

tortoise said:


> I am not feeling particularly friendly at the moment, so a good time to draft an email. I haven't sent it yet. What do you think?


I am sorry for your dog and anyone can make a mistake but that statement they put on the product is what protects them from being sued with incidents like this.... 

I say take care of your dog as you are. And as we all do when we make mistakes is be more careful. 

I would really like to know what this product is........I would personally post it.


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I hope your dog is feeling better now. Do let us know how it goes.

Lots of poodle hugs and positive vibes your way.


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## Fond of Poodles (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm sorry Tortoise for the stressful time you're having, and your poor puppy too!

Sending healing energy his way for a speedy (and permanent) recovery.

It was an accident that could happen to any of us, with or without suitable products. Don't beat yourself up (or let the fiance bully you, lol). I'm sure there isn't a groomer out there who hasn't at one time or another nicked a dog!

Re: topnots, I don't use anything for those scraggly hairs - product wise. I figure our show dogs get enough crap put in their coats before going in the ring, lol. Are you using 2 elastics at the front of the topknot, like little devil horns? It's a hard choice whether to grow it out and endure the scraggly hairs or to keep scissoring them off.

I also agree with you in regards to warnings, I assume when it says "Avoid contact with eyes" that it means unpleasant stinging, not blindness, or flesh burning. I think in a human product that would be illegal regardless of warning labels.

Callie sends snuggles too!


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

fjm said:


> I don't use anything - if the topknot flops in the eyes cut it shorter! Ultra safe!


:lol:

I have the unrealistic expectation of my dog looking show-ready 24/7. I know I'm crazy, just wait 'til coat change.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

I nicked a cat today. But with the condition that cat was in, it was a MIRACLE it was only one nick. the mats had pulled the skin into ridges and mountains that I had to scissor out... about 10 hairs at a time. 3 hours dematting the cat.... not to mention the bath and actual groom.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 28, 2011)

tortoise said:


> I nicked a cat today. But with the condition that cat was in, it was a MIRACLE it was only one nick. the mats had pulled the skin into ridges and mountains that I had to scissor out... about 10 hairs at a time. 3 hours dematting the cat.... not to mention the bath and actual groom.


 One of the many reasons I refuse to groom cats.  Their skin is soooo thin and delicate, yet they get the worst mats! Poor kitties...my sister wants a rag doll though, so it looks like I'll have to learn at least the basics of bathing and brushing a cat. Yay, can't wait.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

mom24doggies said:


> One of the many reasons I refuse to groom cats.  Their skin is soooo thin and delicate, yet they get the worst mats! Poor kitties...my sister wants a rag doll though, so it looks like I'll have to learn at least the basics of bathing and brushing a cat. Yay, can't wait.


I was a 19 year old cat. It had skin nearly as thin as a rabbit. (Rabbit skin will tear if you pull too hard on the hair!) I was so nervous. We were afraid the cat was going to die on us! She was a biter, but I didn't think it was safe to muzzle her or put a towel over her head, so we had to deal with that too. I showed the owner what tools to use, how and when to prevent matting next year and and told her we would not do dematting on her cat again (but we'll help with brushing, bathing, clipping). I felt bad that the owner was trying to groom her cat but didn't know what to use. She was using a boar bristle brush :/

Bad couple of days. 2 grooming injuries in a row was a huge blow to my attitude an confidence. It's a 1 in 100 accident.

No grooming injuries today. Two tiny sweet dogs in beautiful coat condition. 



Anyhow, Jet's eyes look decent today. I will try to get my fiance to stain them again to see how much they have healed.


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## dcyk (Nov 30, 2011)

Take a break, slow down on things, and hope your dog's eyes heal perfectly.


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## tortoise (Feb 5, 2012)

Eyes are clear! :dance2:

And the clear mascara is AMAZING! Love it! Apply, shape it, let dry, and comb with fine tooth comb and it's so soft and silky.

I tried it on a miniature schnauzer with a wavy/curly face. A.M.A.Z.I.N.G! I wish I had taken photos. He went home sleek and gorgeous. Last time he was her he had a spontaneous nosebleed (!!!) and went home with a wet face. The owner did take him to her regular vet and he had another nosebleed there, but they never did find the reason for it. Scary! Anyhow, this is a dog we were growing out a shaved snout and if was the first time she saw how pretty it is!


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