# Thoughts on this training collar?



## Tiny Poodles (Jun 20, 2013)

Ouch - though I know my opinion does not count because my poodles are not big enough to pull a box of Kleenex, but have you thought of trying a Gentle Leader? Many of the Service Dog training schools use them, so they must be pretty good!


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## Caniche (Jun 10, 2013)

kukukachoo said:


> I'm giving some consideration to this Leather Pinch Collar for Dude. He generally does OK on a leash now, but does definitely have a tendency to pull me sometimes if he sees other dogs or really wants a sniff of a certain mailbox. He's so big that he can really pull me if he wants to.
> 
> We walk most afternoons to pick my daughter up from school so while I'm training him, I want a collar that doesn't look scary. I don't want all the parents who are lined up in their cars waiting to pick their kids up to worry that he is mean or aggressive if they see him in a typical silver pinch or prong collar. They might not like the idea of him being on campus all the time if they started viewing him as uncontrollable or aggressive- know what I mean?
> 
> So, anyway, if you guys could tell me what you think of this collar I would appreciate it!


Would you want to wear that? I'm completely against any type of collar that inflicts pain to get a message across. 

I have a toy poodle, but Ryker used to pull hard enough to give me shin splints. I used tons of different harnesses - my two favorites were a gentle leader and one that attached at the chest - so if the dog pulled, he gets turned around.

Honestly, what helped the most, was training. Victoria Stillwell has a method that works great. You walk the dog and as soon as he pulls he make an "uh oh" noise and turn the other way. You do that every time he pulls. It take a practice - the first few times, we didn't get past our house on the sidewalk! But now I can take him for a 45 minute walk without a tug. 


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

I think pinch collars can be a wonderful tool, particularly for pups that are damaging their windpipes through pulling. I have not seen one like this, but it appears both discrete and mild, with a lot less risk of damage to the dog then a choke chain (Tracheal and oesophageal damage) or head halter/halti/gentle leader (spinal injury), or even a typical flat collar (similar tracheal and oesophageal damage as a choke if the dog is a heavy puller). 

If you do choose to go this route I would use the collar in conjunction with a verbal cue (don't pull/close/pay attention/myob) and work towards him never pulling. I do not like any pressure on the leash, and expect my dogs to keep the leash slack by paying attention to me. If you are giving the cues correctly, you should be able to work back to a flat collar fairly quickly. The problem arises when you permit some pulling/constant pressure on the leash, but expect the dog to know when you want him to stop/when it is too much.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Pluto said:


> I think pinch collars can be a wonderful tool, particularly for pups that are damaging their windpipes through pulling. I have not seen one like this, but it appears both discrete and mild, with a lot less risk of damage to the dog then a choke chain (Tracheal and oesophageal damage) or head halter/halti/gentle leader (spinal injury), or even a typical flat collar (similar tracheal and oesophageal damage as a choke if the dog is a heavy puller).
> 
> If you do choose to go this route I would use the collar in conjunction with a verbal cue (don't pull/close/pay attention/myob) and work towards him never pulling. I do not like any pressure on the leash, and expect my dogs to keep the leash slack by paying attention to me. If you are giving the cues correctly, you should be able to work back to a flat collar fairly quickly. The problem arises when you permit some pulling/constant pressure on the leash, but expect the dog to know when you want him to stop/when it is too much.


Fortunately, constant pressure is not the issue. It is indeed only those quick changes of direction (and his ability at 105 pounds to do it without much effort) that are the problem. 

With his size, he wins when he decides to pull. I've tried redirection- or forcing him to just stop and only restart when he isn't pulling, but it isn't always possible and it hurts me sometimes trying. That's why I'm thinking this kind of collar may be justified. I didn't have him as a pup when he would have been easier to train with gentler methods, unfortunately.

Plus, I am not only walking his 105 pounds, but I'm also always walking Daisy's 55 pounds at the same time. Yeah. Not easy.


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## Pluto (Jul 8, 2012)

> Fortunately, constant pressure is not the issue. It is indeed only those quick changes of direction (and his ability at 105 pounds to do it without much effort) that are the problem.


Sounds like this might be a great solution for you then. I bet it won't take long for him to get it once he can't muscle you around and then you can have it on as a backup for a bit and probably just ditch it all together after a few weeks.


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I used to use a prong collar on Lou. Used it for a short period of time. wheb the collar was on her neck she stopped pulling. She NEVER hurt herself with it, it just "bugged" her enough to not want to pull. I have never had to use it again, she doesnt pull much at all now. 
Apollo pulls more. I may consider introducing it to him slowly, but he doesnt pull enough to be a problem, so I may just let it be... 
My point is: I've never seen this particular collar But as long as it doesnt hurt the dog (or they don't hurt themselves with it) I'm ok with it, but if it bugs them a bit and they decide to stop pulling because of it , good!!  



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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i noticed the collar is not rated by any actual users. that would be a downside. it doesn't look similar in construction to other pinch collars that have gotten good reviews, so i would check around a bit more before buying.

going to embed the link to one of the more objective (imo) training sites i have stumbled upon. the trainer does not oppose pinch collars - in fact, he cites a study that shows they appear to have caused less injury than choke collars. but he does point out they are not long-term solutions to the pulling problem. he says the same of gentle leaders and notes, as does pluto, above, that they also can cause injury. i would say find a pinch collar that you are sure works, but be prepared to do the necessary over the long term to teach your dog to walk with you without one. here's the link to the site's page on collars:

Dog Collars: The Most Common Training Tool


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## Jennigma (Sep 6, 2013)

I used prong collars on my last two puppies (a Rottweiler and a BSD) so I'm not fundamentally opposed to them. I will say they didn't address the core issue for us, and were not complete solutions with either dog. Both learned quickly they could pull without consequence if they weren't wearing the prongs. I kept Rosa, the BSD, in a greyhound style collar full time for several years set so it wouldn't fully choke her, but would provide a consequence if she pulled. Which she continued to do regularly; she has a very high prey drive.

Both dogs had to learn to pay attention to me 100% of the time when they were on the leash. I had to learn, likewise, to have a thread of attention on them when I was holding a leash.  It's a cooperative venture. Every walk is a training exercise. Rosa now walks on a plain, flat collar with a loop in her leash and doesn't pull, but it was a long road to get there. I'm not sure the correcting collars helped all that much-- it was obedience training that finally did the job. She now halts when she sees a squirrel or pigeon or other quick moving thing, and looks to me. She will stand there vibrating, but not bolt any more.

I'm going to try this method with Caprica, my 12 week old standard puppy: 

Leash Walking | Ahimsa Dog Blog

She's only been walking on a leash for a week now so I haven't really dived in with it, but that's what I'm planning. From what i've read, it's fundamentally similar to the obedience exercises that "fixed" Rosa's pulling. I now see the corrective collars as a training detour. I'm hoping to set the basics with Caprica before she's big enough to injure my shoulder if she bolts, and avoid the detour path. 

As I said I fully understand the reasons for using prongs and only you can decide if they're necessary in your situation, but wanted to share my experience since I found them ineffective as a long term correction.

Good luck!


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## poodlecrazy#1 (Jul 2, 2013)

I used a prong collar on my GSD when we first rescued her. She had really bad dog aggression issues and that thing worked miracles! Granted we took a full day training class on how to properly use the collar. I have seen some people just decide to use them and have no clue what they are doing and I feel so bad for the dog. even worse I have seen people use them just to make their dog look mean, which I think is extremely sad and cruel. And truthfully the classic metal prong one does not hurt. The first thing the instructor did was have me use it on myself. There was an amount of uncomfortable pressure but no pain, and that was directly on skin, most dogs have fur to give them a bit of padding. 
As for this leather one the prongs do look quite different from the classic one, so that would worry me a bit. But the fact that it has no reviews would be a no go for me. I will not buy anything online if it doesn't have reviews. Maybe you could look it up on google and see if there are any reviews on it. 


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

good advice- y'all let me know if you find a low-profile one with reviews!


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## Minnie (Apr 25, 2011)

Check out the gentle leader easy walk harness. When they pull it literally turns them around to you. I have personally seen this work with several dogs of many sizes - add this with some positive training and you'll see an unbelievable difference!


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

Minnie said:


> Check out the gentle leader easy walk harness. When they pull it literally turns them around to you. I have personally seen this work with several dogs of many sizes - add this with some positive training and you'll see an unbelievable difference!


I'd actually not heard good things about those. Would love to hear some different opinions from people here on them, though.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I've used traditional pinch collars for both lily and Peeves. They have been very useful in helping them to understanding that they can't go lunging after cats and squirrels when the three of us are out together. I often now put them on, but don't hook them to the leashes (traditional ones should always be sued with a back up collar). It is a reminder of the need to be polite on leash. For me it is about 125-130 total dog weight so I know your concerns.

My comments about the one you provided the initial post of are the lack of reviewer comments, so you don't know how people have done with it for a start (agreeing with patk here). Also traditional pinch collars can be size adjusted depending on the actual size of the dogs neck by taking links out or adding as needed. They are meant to fit snug near the top of the neck behind the dog's ears. This one doesn't look adjustable.

I know people will disagree with me about this but when you are using them correctly they don't hurt the dog and really are safer than unlimited slip chains. On an unlimited slip chain, Lily would have pulled until she passed out when she was learning how to walk nicely. On a pinch collar she has never pulled hard enough to hurt herself. You never give any leash correction with a pinch collar. I tried wrapping the one I got for her on my lower arm before I decided to use it. I pulled harder than I think she ever has and it didn't hurt or leave any marks (and I bruise like an over ripe banana!).


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

You might be interested in this site:

http://lolalimited.net/secret-powers/

(It's a "traditional" prong collar built into a martingale collar, so that the fact that it's a prong collar isn't obvious from the outside.) This vendor sells at the Reliant series of dog shows, so I've seen the collars; they seem to be of good quality.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to prong collars, as they can provide a means of control while the underlying issues are being dealt with. Many people in the training world prefer them over the typical "choke chain" type of unlimited slip collar. They're often referred to as "power steering." As others have mentioned, it's all too easy for the dog to twig that he can go ahead and pull when the prong isn't on, but, if used as part of a judicious training program ultimately desgined to lessen the need for it, the prong collar can be a godsend.

--Q


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I have seen a gentle leader work miracles with a Bernese Mountain dog that was a very strong puller. My instructor showed the owner how to use it and after initial resistance the dog walked without pulling. Once you get the dog walking without pulling you phase it out.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

i've only seen the gentle leader on one dog in my neighborhood. it works, but i didn't like the fact that one day i noticed it had moved right up under the dog's eye. i was afraid it would injure her. like any tool, success often depends at least partly on the skill of the user. i wish my neighbor would get past using this one, as i think the dog is now of the age where she has calmed down. but i can understand my neighbor's concern, because she was dragged to the ground once years ago by the dog, and she was not a young, resilient woman even then.

i think i prefer lily cd re's method of using the prong collar for initial no-pull training (not for active corrections by the owner) and then putting it on unconnected to the leash as a constant reminder.


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

are "pinch" and "prong" collars the same thing?


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## Lou (Sep 22, 2012)

I don't like the gentle leader , it looks to me like it hurts the dog. Even though I know that it does not. It kind of looks like some sort of muzzle that squeezes their face as they try to pull. 

I like the prong collar (for training for a short period of time) but they do look a little scary/harsh even though Lou has never hurt herself with it, people tend to think the dog is aggressive if they see one. But it did work for Lou as I mentioned on my previous post. She doesnt need the prong collar anymore.

Ps. I think hooking the leash to the chest (harness) works, they lose their balance and realize quickly that pulling is not a good idea. But I DO NOT LIKE HARNESSES, because Lou can easily get herself out of it! in 2 seconds! LOL if something frightens her, she can slip right out

We use *MARTINGALE COLLARS*. And they ONLY SQUEEZE TO THEIR NECK SIZE, so they cant escape but does not choke. (You have to adjust it to your dog's neck size)

I like them wearing the martingale only when on a leash and a 2nd collar (snug, but not uncomfortable) with identification at all times


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## TrueColors (Nov 18, 2012)

Pinch collar and prong collars are the same thing , I also found this online Iv'e never used the site though , you can probably find something similar on amazon
prong collar nylon protector - np200 [np200 - pinch collar nylon protector] - $9.90 : Dog harness , Dog collar , Dog leash , Dog muzzle - Dog training equipment from Trusted Direct Source - Home, Dog Supplies

You could buy a regular prong collar and put this on to make it look less " Threatening "

I use a martingale on Jenna , and before i used a slip collar.My neighbors dog uses a prong collar and i honestly rather a prong over a slip collar they're allot more effective and it's easier for a dog to choke itself with a slip collar. Jenna has a high prey drive and we live in an area with allot of squirrels geesse rabbits birds and it became a huge challenge to to walk her until i used the slip collar. I then transitioned her to a flat collar in a matter of weeks but i still like to use a martingale to make sure she wont get out of her collar and now I swear by martingales!


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Unpopular opinion here!

I love my prong collars! If I walk Vegas and Vienna on their own they're fine, but together it's a WHO CAN CHOKE THEMSELVES FIRST contest. With the prong collar everyone gets to enjoy the walk, they don't choke and I'm not getting yanked all over the place. Just make sure you're sizing them correctly, they should NEVER be large enough to slip over the head, they should be snug, absolutely not loose like a chain collar.


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## louislinus (Jan 23, 2013)

I've had great success with the gentle leader on several dogs.


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## Ellyisme (Jul 17, 2012)

I use a gentle leader on Hibbert and it has worked miracles! It doesn't restrict his movements and he can eat and drink freely with it on. I've also used a prong collar on our other dog whose nose is too short for the gentle leader and it has worked like a dream. Hib still pulls like crazy with a prong collar. I'd say it is trial and error. Get what works the best for you.










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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Ellyisme, I think you hit an important point here which is finding the correct tool that will work for you. The other important part of this is making sure the dog understands why what happens happens. Unless the dog understands then it will not modify its behavior towards the outcomes you are seeking. In other words you don't put any sort of training collar on a dog and just correct away before you show the dog what you want. If you get reliable performance easily you should use the simplest tool you can. Once you get the behavior you desire you should fade to the simplest tool that maintains the behavior. As I said I often put the pinch collars on without attaching them to the leashes. If somebody starts acting crazy for cats then I hook it back on to give a reminder. I think it is better that all of us go for nice calm walks than no walks at all or worse that we get hurt because of poor impulse control by my squirrel hunting dogs dragging me down the street. 

Fluffyspoos I am not so sure your opinion is entirely unpopular. While there are many people who I have tremendous respect for who only use positive reinforcements, I also suspect there are plenty of people who use pinch collars but are afraid to go on the record to avoid be criticized. Clearly there are some people here who understand how to use them and some who would disagree with us. I also see plenty of pinch collars at my obedience club, all being used correctly on nice working dogs.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> i noticed the collar is not rated by any actual users. that would be a downside. it doesn't look similar in construction to other pinch collars that have gotten good reviews, so i would check around a bit more before buying.


I'm not using that particular collar, but mine is quite similar. It's a HermSprenger Neck Tech collar. The dog trainer I'm working with suggested it. He agrees that pinch-type collars are less dangerous/painful than standard choke chains. It needs to be very snug to work well, tight enough that you can just slip two fingers, side by side, under it. It isn't a miracle cure, but it works better than anything else I've tried, Jazz doesn't seem to mind it, and it doesn't look like a torture device. The only caveat is that it might tangle in a thick coat. I keep Jazz clipped short, so that hasn't been a problem, but I can see that as a possibility. 

Here's a link:

http://www.rayallen.com/product/hs-necktech-buckle-black/herm-sprenger


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

louislinus said:


> I've had great success with the gentle leader on several dogs.


I tried the gentle leader on my son's dog years ago. Hiram learned very quickly how to turn facing me and jerk his head out. He also chewed through it once when I was distracted. I tried something similar on Jazz, who went ballistic, totally panicked as soon as I put it on her.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

lily cd re said:


> Also traditional pinch collars can be size adjusted depending on the actual size of the dogs neck by taking links out or adding as needed. They are meant to fit snug near the top of the neck behind the dog's ears. This one doesn't look adjustable.


I noticed that, too. The HermSpringer Neck Tech is adjustable. The links can be removed and reinserted. It takes a screwdriver or something flat that you can use to leverage against the links to straighten them, and a pair of pliers to bend them down again to reattach them, so it isn't as straightforward as removing a standard prong-collar link, but it isn't difficult.

After a second look at the leather collar, it can be adjusted like a regular collar. There are a few punched holes for the buckle to fasten to. That might be enough, if you're pretty close on the initial measurement. (I didn't notice if there is more than one size.)


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## critterclipper (Jun 13, 2010)

You might be interested in this site:



http://lolalimited.net/secret-powers/



(It's a "traditional" prong collar built into a martingale collar, so that the fact that it's a prong collar isn't obvious from the outside.) This vendor sells at the Reliant series of dog shows, so I've seen the collars; they seem to be of good quality.


You stole my thunder lol


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## ar22dp (Oct 19, 2011)

I havent seen someone using a prong collar, because its illegal in my country(aswell as the electric ones). In fact it is so illegal that one using it is liable for 2years inprissonment for animal cruelty. This makes it legal to stop the crime(remove the collar) and do a citizens arrest, with force if needed, on the person who is using it. But i have seen people having choke collars, yanking and pulling on the dogs. This isnt illegal, its just stupid and cruel. Bad behavior in a dog comes from ourselves, failed leadership. I see and hear many dogowners that take out their frustration on their dog. And it doesnt help, they end up yelling and pulling even more.

In my opinion using a prong/electric collar is no different from beeing abusive and hitting your dog. And the law in my country doesnt make any difference either.

My spoo Bambi has never been corrected, more than a simple "no" if he tries to do something hes not allowed to do. He doesnt pull on the leach, not because he is afraid of me, but because he wants to walk with me. He knows that im the leeder, and that walking nicely is rewarded with treats and ear massage. The single most important step for us to get him to walk beside me without pulling was the eye-contact exercises. This is simple, reward the dog every time he makes eyecontact when out walking.

I want blind obedience from my spoo, therefore i use only positive reinforcement and never ever correct him in any way. This takes time, effort and alot of love but it gives results.

If bambi does something hes not supposed to do, i always blame myself. I have failed him as a leader, and i should be the one getting punished(wearing a prong collar perhaps .


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I had a 90 Lb Doberman with not one ounce of fat on him. He was solid muscle and he could pull like a draft horse. If I could hold him by stopping the walking, you can hold onto your Poodle. I used a prong for about a week and decided against it. The dog can associate pain or discomfort with whatever is in his environment. He was already dog reactive while on a leash and that just escalates it. They don't learn self control if they're being forced to do something or not to do something and that is by far inferior to learning self control. Additionally, if he gets pinched in the presence of a kid on a bike, then you risk the dog becoming aggressive toward kids on bikes. I do not like inflicting pain to teach a dog anything. There are better ways. If you must use something, then there are no pull harnesses that control the dog. Halti Harness - No Pull Harness - Dog Training Supply

I also like Victoria Stillwell's method. But also, you can do your training in a low distraction area first...reinforce at a high rate of frequency as the dog takes a couple steps along side you and every couple steps. Introduce distractions gradually. Make lots of turns and above all, as a separate exercise, teach the dog to focus on you...practice at home in your living room. 

Rationalizing that one type of pinch collar causes less pain than another, remember, if it doesn't cause pain, it won't work. It's got to be either sufficiently painful to stop a behavior or reinforcing enough to increase another behavior.(the behavior you want) I hear this all the time about shock collars..."Oh, it doesn't hurt. It just does a little of this or that." I don't buy that for one minute. If it didn't hurt or cause fear, it wouldn't stop a behavior.


This is a great video. I love this trainer. Take a look. 

Happy training.


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## lindasdoggrooming (Nov 12, 2012)

Sign up for a refresher course in obedience and get some new strategies for redirecting. Put in the work and you will see improvement. I have used the gentle leader on many of my dogs and worked until they were no longer needed. I would never use a pinch or prong collar.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

I'm going to speak up for the other point of view here. I use the HermSprenger prong collar on Jazz, who doesn't show any signs of resentment, fear, or pain, but she does walk much better with it than without it. In addition, on the advice of the trainer I'm working with, I'm also using an E-collar. (I can hear the collective gasps of horror from all over the world, and maybe, just possibly, a few faint sounds of agreement.) It's a Dogtra 1900 model, with a wide range of intensity and a "pager" function that just vibrates. I rarely have to activate it, and again, Jazz shows no adverse reaction to it. No fear, no cringing, nothing but happy obedience. She has free run of the big meadow, but she comes to me with great enthusiasm when I call her and frequently checks in with me when I don't, hopeful of a treat. Yesterday I was able to call her off a deer chase with just a quick buzz of the collar and a "Noooo, Jazz! Come!" She came to me immediately, sat for a treat, and, when I gave her the "free dog" command, went back to sniffing and playing. Although she loves my husband, she's clearly my dog and spends most of her time in the house close to me.

Although any training aid can be misused, what I'm doing with Jazz in no way constitutes abuse. She's happy, healthy, well cared for and well loved, and it shows in her behavior.


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

judyd: the collar you use has a lot of reviews on amazon. i did not read them all, but i was impressed by how many of the reviewers tried the collar on themselves to make sure they were calibrating correctly; they wanted to control (and in many instances, save) their dogs, but not at the cost of inflicting pain. used correctly, it's clear to me that this can evolve into a highly sophisticated system of communicating with our dogs while permitting them the freedom a leash can never offer. something to think about.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

patk said:


> judyd: the collar you use has a lot of reviews on amazon. i did not read them all, but i was impressed by how many of the reviewers tried the collar on themselves to make sure they were calibrating correctly; they wanted to control (and in many instances, save) their dogs, but not at the cost of inflicting pain. used correctly, it's clear to me that this can evolve into a highly sophisticated system of communicating with our dogs while permitting them the freedom a leash can never offer. something to think about.


Our trainer says the Dogtra is the best collar he's ever worked with. He likes the wide range of stimulus choices and the pager function. He says it's a reasonable cost, water-proof, easy to use and almost impossible to trigger accidentally . He also says it's entirely possible to overuse any e-collar, and once the dog is cowed, it's very, very hard to undo the damage, so he's been absolutely clear about when and how to use it. 

I'm very concerned that Jazz might get lost. There are no standard poodles that I know of around here, she looks very elegant, at least to untutored eyes like mine (more than one person has asked me if she's a show dog :biggrin1, and despite a tag and a microchip, I doubt I'd ever see her again if she wandered off. So, until I got this collar, I was reluctant to turn her loose. Other than the meadow, there's nowhere she can just run and run and run, and no matter how far I walk her, it doesn't replace stretching those legs to the max. Now I'm able to let her go, with the collar on, and after a few weeks, I'm comfortable letting her go without it in the yard--she walks down to get the mail or feed the fish with me, she stays with us if we're drinking coffee by a fire in the firepit, so I'm seeing great strides in a short time. 

I have to admit, though, I haven't tried on myself.


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## Mom-n-Reiki (Jan 6, 2013)

JudyD said:


> Our trainer says the Dogtra is the best collar he's ever worked with.
> 
> ....
> 
> I have to admit, though, I haven't tried on myself.


I agree with your trainer! I have worn both the Dogtra and the Sprengher prong collar before putting them on one of my dogs for the first time and I love them both for different reasons.

As for the Dogtra, I was uncomfortable after level 6, but my Dane didn't even feel a thing until we put it up to 3, but we never needed to change it after that. The pager was useless for us, since he was profoundly deaf, but it eradicated some rough play behaviors that were causing problems with other dogs in under a week as well as some issues with recall where he would flat out refuse the command. We used that, then the first four weeks of the Koehler method and bam! We had a totally reliable giant deaf dog. He was able to go off leash anywhere and Koehler taught him to check in with us frequently so he was always there when I needed him.

The prong we used on our ACD mix as well as a few other dogs with exceptional results as well. I like how they tend to self correct on it and found it relatively easy to transition to a normal flat collar.

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## fairhavenmagick (Jan 19, 2011)

If you decide to go with a regular pinch/prong collar you can also buy cover for them in various places online (here's an Etsy one) The potential problem I see with the original collar posted is that there no release/engage mechanism that is built into a traditional prong. It looks like when the dog is pulling the pressure will only be on the front similar to a buckle collar- that can cause a lot of damage. Especially because a buckle collar like that would sit way too far down on a dog's neck (like a normal collar)

Prongs are built so that when engaged the pressure is equalized around the whole of the neck. And the collars are meant to be fitted differently. They sit up a lot higher than a normal collar. Behind the ear and above the notch of the vertebrae. If you aren't sure how to properly fit a prong please do! This looks like a decent tutorial- HERE but I haven't read through all of it in detail.

I have used prongs collars on all of my dogs a some point or another. I have had Great Danes for years and have done Dane rescue and fostering. I barely top 100 pounds. They can be a great tool and stepped down from quickly, when they are used properly. My dogs got to the point where they loved seeing their prongs come out. It meant they weren't about to go have a lot of fun.

Day to day I use either regular buckle or all fabric martingales. The martingales are for my fat neck-little head girl Dane & I used a 1.5 inch width one on Halo because I like the way it looks. 

I myself have had a harder time transitioning a dog from a halti style to a regular collar. I also have seen a few injuries (honestly none from prongs) resulting from halti styles and the no pull harnesses. Neck and shoulder injuries. The vets I work with that do chiropractic care really dislike them.

(I am one of those people who have pronged & e collared myself- in my experience pressure from a plain ol' buckle is the worst!)


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

all right, e-collar users. answer this question for me. when you page or nick your dog, why does s/he respond by going to you? why doesn't s/he keep running in an effort to get away from the unpleasantness of the page or nick? let's say you started off by paging with the dog next to you and giving a treat. so then the page comes to mean there's a treat coming. but why does a nick (or worse) cause the dog to return to you? let's say you even gave nicked your dog (or worse) and gave a treat to create a more positive association. still doesn't explain why that means the dog should return to you, does it? i can understand the association with a treat at lower levels, but if there's a real shock involved, shouldn't your dog go nuts trying to flee instead of returning to you?


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## Mom-n-Reiki (Jan 6, 2013)

Good question. 

Let me be clear you are not nicking the dog; there is also no shock the way we typically define shock....it's static. Remember those round novelty toys that you put your hands on and it tingled and if you left your hands on long enough it felt a bit unpleasant? (The name totally escapes me but this is the best way i can think of to describe it. Spencers still sells them I think.) The ecollars are designed to be more of an irritant than a true shock as long as it is being used CORRECTLY (Caps for emphasis). It is when people use this tool incorrectly (large dog collar on small breed dog, intensity turned all the way up, not using any other feedback, timing is wrong, ect) that the problems happen amd you risk hurting the dog and shouldb put the collar away until you find professional help.

My deaf boy reacted the same way to the collar as if I was standing there and tapped on his shoulder for attention or some irritating fly landed there. "Huh? What?" He would look, the behavior would stop, he would look at us and we made a big deal about how good he was. As I said previously, I wore the collar and tested all the settings before ever letting it touch my dog. If it had hurt (level ten, the highest one, still was not a true shock it was a really unpleasant static tingly feeling...and this is from me with a laughably low pain tolerance. I dont go over level six because i feel anythingover that is excessive. IMO) or left a mark or made ME squeak it would not have touched my dog.
The trick, and what most people have trouble with, was to catch him right before he went to scruff and flip the dog and timing had to be perfect. Too early and we corrected nothing, too late and we corrected the wrong behavior, since it happened so quickly.

I was taught to use the pager in association with a recall command so no treats were used. The ecollar works as either positive punishment or negative reinforcment (if you want to relate it to operant conditioning. IE: add a stimulous to encourage a behavior to stop (static button when dog refuses command)/ take away a stimulous to encourage a behavior (let off button when dog stops chasing a squirrel)). 

So for example, you send out the dog (who already recalls well on a long line and you've taken awhile to work up to this level of reliability so it can be assumed the dog knows the command) and this dog realizes he is not connected to you and decideds to run around and chase squirrels. You call out your recall command and hit the pager. Nothing. You hit the shock/static button and the dog stops, maybe takes a step towards you, you let off the button and praise. As long as the dog is moving towards you after you say the command, no button. If the dog moves away after the squirrel, hit the button but you MUST let off as soon as he stops. Dog comes back after next recall cue, you give tons of praise and treats. Essentially good things happen when he listens and is close to you (or relatively so) and bad things happen if he does/is not.

It is extremely important that before giving any type of correction your dog is familiar with the command and offers it at least 75-80% of the times you ask. If you correct a dog before it knows a command, this is when you run the risk of keeping the dog from wanting to offer new behaviors or from wanting to learn. My dogs have all loved their training collars, even the ecollar (my dane would come to work with me when i was at a dog daycare and stopped wanting to go out to group parks unless he had his ecollar on....he would literally put on the breaks if someone forgot), because they love/d training time and knew it was going to be fun. 

Hope this helped answer your questions.
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

As Mom-n-Reiki says, timing is critical. If Jazz ignores a command to come and continues to move away, I say "Noooo, Jazz," and hit the nick button, which delivers a burst of static electricity, a burst only, not a continuous charge. (There is a continuous button, which I've never used--and won't--that delivers repeated bursts, and, as I recall from the instructions, stops after ten seconds.) The instant she turns toward me, I call and give visual encouragement, and she gets a treat when she's sitting in front of me. She doesn't connect the nick with me, only with the inappropriate behavior, but she certainly knows where the treats come from. This morning, she responded entirely to voice control. She isn't allowed to go through gates or doors ahead of me, so when she approached the gate, I said, "Wait," she stopped until I went through, then followed me. Same for any other "Waits" and "Comes." I didn't touch the transmitter at all. She got to run and play freely through the entire walk, and she came home with us with no problem. I wouldn't trust this kind of control on a busy street, but it's a godsend where I'm using it.


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## fairhavenmagick (Jan 19, 2011)

My dogs don't come to me in conjunction with the e collar unless I have called them to come and I used it to reinforce it. I've only used it for this purpose in one of my SAR dogs during the teenage months. So 'nicking' them doesn't make them come to me. Mostly, if there is any noticeable reaction it's like to a flea bite and they might give a quick scratch.
Mostly, I have used the collar to enforce 'leave it' in the field while we are at training. It interrupted their interest in whatever and acted like some mentioned above- a tap on the shoulder to get their attention.

I use my collar in a manner that the dog doesn't realize it's the collar (though most do clue into that) and especially that it is NOT me whose creating the sensation. 

I have turned up my collar a couple of times with the intent to do more than tap my dog on the shoulder. In one case it was with Halo and a kitten. She doesn't bother my other cats but something about this kitten- she wouldn't leave it alone. The kitten was terrified of her but wouldn't run away and wouldn't smack her in the nose either. So up went the collar and it took one correction. Halo did coming running to me "Oh, my did you see what that kitten did to me?!" and that was it. The 'kitten' told Halo to leave her alone and now she gets the same respect that all the other cats get.

So since they don't realize it's me their response to higher levels would be to come to me for comfort/confidence reasons. I'm 'base'.


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I prefer to _train_ the dog and not use things that make the dog behave "or else." If these shock collars don't hurt or cause the dog to want to avoid it, then they wouldn't work. I promote teaching a dog self control and using methods which make the dog want to comply for the relationship and reward, not to avoid something. If anyone thinks a dog can not reach the same level of obedience using PR methods, you didn't see my Dobe. He was explicitly obedient. Also, check out Steve White, the police dog trainer who uses PR only after having used conventional, compulsive methods.Steve White
Well, off I go to eastern Wa for a seminar. Carry on.


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## JudyD (Feb 3, 2013)

fairhavenmagick said:


> I have turned up my collar a couple of times with the intent to do more than tap my dog on the shoulder. In one case it was with Halo and a kitten. She doesn't bother my other cats but something about this kitten- she wouldn't leave it alone. The kitten was terrified of her but wouldn't run away and wouldn't smack her in the nose either. So up went the collar and it took one correction. Halo did coming running to me "Oh, my did you see what that kitten did to me?!" and that was it. The 'kitten' told Halo to leave her alone and now she gets the same respect that all the other cats get.
> 
> So since they don't realize it's me their response to higher levels would be to come to me for comfort/confidence reasons. I'm 'base'.


This is our trainer's approach to interrupting something like deer chasing. He says to simply turn the stimulus level up and let the dog think it was the deer that caused the discomfort. I've never been able to stop myself from shouting "Nooooo!" when Jazz jumps a deer, and I've never been coordinated enough to crank the level up and deliver the correction in a timely fashion, but I can appreciate the theory, which, as your "kitten" proved, works well. 

Even with the same level of stimulus and my shouts, Jazz is much less likely to react to deer now. On a walk this week, several times we approached deer standing by the side of the road (they're all over the place right now), and Jazz was very good to keep walking. (No e-collar on a walk.)


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## kukukachoo (Jul 26, 2012)

thanks for all the input. i have not made any purchases yet, but have decided against the one i asked about in the OP because of some of the features it lacks and lack of reviews. thanks for pointing those things out to me!


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## patk (Jun 13, 2013)

kukukachoo, this thread got a little off track with discussion of e-collars, for which i apologize. please don't take that as a recommendation for your dog. i think not all dogs can handle human use of every tool out there and yours does need special care because of his condition. i wouldn't consider using an e-collar on him without close consultation with a trusted veterinary behaviorist. just my opinion.


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