# Raw feeding... switching over a puppy?



## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

Sorry in advance for the length of this post. Will have a TLR at the bottom. I just talk too much.

My standard pup Ripley is still with his breeder and siblings and will be until sometime late next month. When he is ready to come home with me, I would like to have all my ducks in a row and transition him from kibble to raw. I am also intending to transfer my other two dogs (Dinah: 30lb Corgi and Relish: 15lb Jack Russell cross) to raw.

I am currently working my way through what I intend to be our last bag of kibble, which I wish I hadn't bought... but I was nearly out of food, and didn't have the idea of switching to raw until after I had already done it. This current bag may last us about three/four weeks with my current plan. Today I bought some pre-made raw (chicken as meat source) to start mixing with it. I figure 25/50/75% raw is better than 0%, while I get through this kibble. Yes, I am aware some people don't recommend mixing the two. I am not throwing away the kibble and my dogs have pretty iron stomachs, so I am not too worried.

My Corgi will eat anything, she doesn't worry me one bit. I'm sure once she gets some real chunks of meat and bones she'll be the happiest dog on earth. The Jack mix is a picky eater, however. But mostly picky over kibble, he turns his nose up at everything. Loves human food treats, though. He also took to the partially-raw dinner I gave tonight VERY well. I have never seen him so excited for dinner. He has some allergies, also. Pretty mild allergies, just minor itching mostly. I currently have him on grain/gluten free, but he's still itchy and I have been trying various protein sources to try to figure out what might be causing it. Hard to do though, since it takes us 2-3 weeks to go through a bag of food, and he's a picky eater so I have to transition him slow every time I switch formula. Anything special I should consider for him?

My real question is mainly about the upcoming puppy - does anyone have experience transitioning a puppy two months old to raw? Do you start with whole ground food, then switch to non-ground once the pup has grown a bit? Do you switch to 50/50? Start with just chicken? What about organ percentages, bone percentages, anything special on that front?

Should I be sure to have my two other dogs switched to 100% raw pre-made by the time the puppy gets here? As of right now my plan is to have the two current dogs eating pre-made, let them adjust to that for a bit, add the puppy to the mix, then switch to either whole ground, or bone-in. I figure ground will be easier for the puppy for a couple months or so?

TLR - Puppy on the way, want to switch him to raw. Have two current dogs in house and a large bag of kibble and some pre-made raw (chicken), am using up the bag of kibble and mixing it with raw, will have them switched 100% pre-made raw by the time puppy gets there. Current dog has allergies I am trying to figure out, is a picky eater, would like suggestions. Main question: How to feed puppy? Switch over cold turkey, or 50/50? Bone-in or ground better for starting a pup?


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Have you gone to preymodelraw.com? And check out this old thread on another forum.

Basically, when your puppy comes home (assuming he'll be at least 8 weeks old), you can transition straight to whole raw food. Since you haven't fed raw before, I would start transitioning your current dogs, so that you can get the hang of it before your puppy comes home.

Feeding raw is pretty simple once you know what you're doing, but it can seem overwhelming when you start.


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## FireStorm (Nov 9, 2013)

I don't have experience switching a puppy, but I just want to say that I don't think you need to worry about mixing raw and kibble. Hans has been eating 50/50 raw and kibble for several months now (both at the same meal) with no problem. My parents feed their dogs the same thing. All the dogs are doing great. We make the grind ourselves.

My biggest worry for a puppy would be making sure the calcium and phosphorus were exactly right. I'd probably feed a raw grind and transition gradually from what the puppy was eating at the breeder, but that's just my opinion. I know the general advice is to start with one protein and slowly add organs and other proteins but I'd be worried about the puppy missing nutrients while it was growing.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

I have to echo Firestorm's vitamin and mineral concerns for a new puppy. Maybe I'm unnecessarily cautious. Buck's breeder does one meal of prey raw and the other puppy meals were kibble. I've kept that up. One of our members, nifty, uses an Honest Kitchen base, and I think that might contain the vitamin/minerals I'm concerned about. Hope she checks in and comments.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

We fed raw and kibble while I was first trying it out. It took a month or so before I was ready to ditch the bag.

If you want to do a pre-made raw, which is a fine way to go, you can either go commercial, which for the first few weeks won't be too expensive, or even buy a commercial grind. I'm in the delivery range of mypetcarnivore, which has a puppy grind and a regular adult dog grind, and there are other similar suppliers. Finally, depending on where you are, there may be an active raw co-op nearby. I know Austin has a great one.

Still, I would start your corgi and JRT before Ripley arrives.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

Liz - I will read up on those links you posted, will take the day to digest it and get back to you. Appreciated! =) I am currently intending to switch the current dogs over to 100% pre-made raw before the puppy gets here. After that, however, is a bit up for debate. Unsure if I should switch to ground after that, for the puppy's sake, or straight to bone-in. The pre-made is temporary, though. Ultimate goal is bone-in raw for all dogs. I live in an area Texas Tripe delivers to, so I will be picking up some stuff from them when they are next in the area - the 3rd Saturday of the month. Which is why I bought some premade from the store for right now, since they're not in the area currently. I would have bought ground from them if they weren't only delivering here once a month.

Firestorm - Good to hear your dogs are doing well on 50% kibble/50% raw! My solution is to do it only until my current bag runs out, but it's reassuring to know some people do it without issue.

Mfmst - I too am curious about calcium (etc) % for puppies, which is why I was thinking it would be best to switch directly over to ground raw when he gets here? My understanding is that the nutrients are more available in raw than in kibble. Puppy may have an upset tummy for a few days though if I switch cold turkey, so I am unsure. I am not opposed to switching him over gradually if that's truly best.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

The breeder I'll be getting my standard from has been feeding raw for 35+ years and weans her pups to raw. Her dogs are incredibly healthy and generally long loved. I switched my Great Dane puppy to raw at 5 months old - his breeder feeds her keeper pups raw as well. His growth was so much more steady and slow, without the spurts and lulls that kibble fed Dane puppies are often subject too. And Great Danes can have some pretty gnarly growth issues if they don't get the proper mineral ratios as puppies. I had zero issues on raw, and both Finn and Asaah's breeders have no growth issues (like HOD, knuckling, or pano) with their raw fed Dane puppies. No need for kibble or ground (you get zero teeth benefits from ground meat), just start the pup right away on whole meats. It definitely made me nervous to switch, but once you get past the learning curve, the benefits are great! The link Liz posted is really helpful. It's also really helpful to have a mentor to help you out. Whereabouts do you live? I help admin a raw group on Facebook and we have a nice member-compiled list of meat resources by area and a how to start guide in the group files that might be helpful for you.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

I live in Texas, in the Dallas area. Are you admining the Raw Feeding Community? I joined that one yesterday. I'm very busy reading! I see you think feeding whole right off the bat is a good idea, but I am a little scared I might get the ratios off at the beginning... I was only going to do it for the first month with the puppy. I figured by then I would have had enough time to learn. But I will consider starting off whole instead of ground... I haven't made my mind 100% yet.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Malasarus said:


> I live in Texas, in the Dallas area. Are you admining the Raw Feeding Community? I joined that one yesterday. I'm very busy reading! I see you think feeding whole right off the bat is a good idea, but I am a little scared I might get the ratios off at the beginning... I was only going to do it for the first month with the puppy. I figured by then I would have had enough time to learn. But I will consider starting off whole instead of ground... I haven't made my mind 100% yet.


I'm not on Raw Feeding Community, I left quite a few raw Facebook groups just because I've seen some crazy scary advice out there! I don't think I ever even joined that one. I help out with Raw Food Diet for Dogs and Cats. You're welcome to join if you want to check the files. FYI, they're pretty gung ho about no kibble, and kibble discussion is against the group rules just to keep it to raw, so if you join, just read the rules and don't post anything about kibble  You don't even need to post if you just want to check out the files. I know Texas Tripe is a co-op in Texas, plus there are lots of slaughterhouses and processing plants where you can get parts in bulk, which helps keep your costs down. 

I liked switching my pup to whole meats because he learned to chew well. At first I fed large pieces that he couldn't swallow whole so he learned to chew. Ground meat he basically just inhaled. When I feed ground anything now, I feed it frozen so at least it's of some benefit to their teeth and they can't just inhale it in 10 seconds. Once their jaws get strong, they ea so darn fats - once I gave Finn and Asaah a whole chicken each with the intention of taking it up when they're eaten half. I went back in to put the cats' bowls down, went back out 1 minute later, and the chickens were gone! These were 6 and 7 lb chickens!! If I feed ground meat, it's literally 3 lbs of ground meat gone in 20 seconds. 

I started with chicken leg quarters and half chickens, but I was feeding a 5 month old Dane puppy and I think he weighed about 80 lbs by then. Legs or thighs would probably be a good start for a standard poodle pup. I know Carol, my future breeder, start her pups on ground, but she weans them to that. They're on whole meats by the time they go home at 8+ weeks, and they can really put the hurt on a chicken leg quarter by then!


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

I'll join your Facebook group and check it out! I need to read, read, read!

Texas Tripe is who I am probably going to be using. They deliver pretty close to me. Unfortunately it is also on a day that I work... They deliver 30 minutes before I start work, and the delivery location is approximately 15/20 minutes away from my job, so I'll have to scramble to get to work on time. And I guess I will have to bring a cooler in to work with me... Man, keeping 80lbs of raw meat at work is going to be a pain. :afraid:


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> The breeder I'll be getting my standard from has been feeding raw ...... weans her pups to raw. Her dogs are incredibly healthy and generally long loved. .................No need for kibble or ground (you get zero teeth benefits from ground meat), just start the pup right away on whole meats. It definitely made me nervous to switch, but once you get past the learning curve, the benefits are great! The link Liz posted is really helpful. It's also really helpful to have a mentor to help you out. ................


Just jumping in here - I too got my spoo from a long time breeder of raw with really healthy dogs. I made the mistake of switching to kibble somewhere down the road thinking it would be easier. 

We went back to raw about 3 years ago after health issues on kibble. You may find after switching to raw that allergy issues clear up. Many dogs for instance have chicken allergies on chicken kibble, but none with raw bone in chicken and properly balanced raw diet including organs, etc.

I don't bother with ground meat either. When I have run out of whole meat and gone to the store and gotten some ground meat temporarily he ends up acting really funny after his meal, and goes around looking for something to chew on. That's about the only time he even pays any attention to his antler.

I think I actually pay more for his food than I do for mine I would love to find another group online that is well led that is a raw feeding group. I too left some groups where the advice wasn't the best.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

kontiki said:


> Just jumping in here - I too got my spoo from a long time breeder of raw with really healthy dogs. I made the mistake of switching to kibble somewhere down the road thinking it would be easier.
> 
> We went back to raw about 3 years ago after health issues on kibble. You may find after switching to raw that allergy issues clear up. Many dogs for instance have chicken allergies on chicken kibble, but none with raw bone in chicken and properly balanced raw diet including organs, etc.
> 
> ...


The co-op I use is in Michigan - based in SE with deliveries around there. It might be close enough for you if you have freezer space to stock up. The prices are pretty good if you want to check it out: Carnivore Carry Out - SE MID MICHIGAN RAW DIET CO-OP FOR DOGS & CATS. You do have to join prior to ordering, but you can check out the selection and prices. Carol, who runs the co-op, is a co-breeder with Penny at Pinafore standards. Carol also started Raw Food Diet for Dogs and Cats on FB. All the admins try hard to keep the crazy advice and spam out.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Malasarus said:


> I'll join your Facebook group and check it out! I need to read, read, read!
> 
> Texas Tripe is who I am probably going to be using. They deliver pretty close to me. Unfortunately it is also on a day that I work... They deliver 30 minutes before I start work, and the delivery location is approximately 15/20 minutes away from my job, so I'll have to scramble to get to work on time. And I guess I will have to bring a cooler in to work with me... Man, keeping 80lbs of raw meat at work is going to be a pain. :afraid:


If you become a certified (or maybe certifiable lol) meat hoarder like me, you'll eventually have a ton of freezers. Then you can order 300 lbs at a time and not have to order every month and just take the day off (if you're able to)!


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

We have a deep freezer in the garage, but I don't think we've got enough room in it for 300lbs yet, haha! Not unless I could convince my folks to stop hoarding people food in it so I can hoard dog food in it instead, which is unlikely. Though now that I think about it, I might be able to convince a family member of mine to pick the food up for me if it is only once a month/every other month. The chances of me being able to take off for the day on Saturday is pretty much zero. It's our busiest day at work, and we don't have someone else that can do my job on that day.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

We actually source a lot of our food from the grocery store. We get chicken quarters and pork, and from a Chinese grocery (meat sourced domestically), we get liver, kidney, heart, and any part of a duck you could want (watching a dog eat a duck head is really strange). We rely on MyPetCarnivore for other organs, beef, and pricier meats like goat and sheep or even emu and llama. Our total cost is just under $2/lb, which is about the cost of a bag of Acana or Orijen for the month.

Because we're not relying on MPC for 100% of the food, we order once every 3-4 months. Honestly, we could probably go down to twice/year because of our deep freezer, but I'm not that organized.


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## Mfmst (Jun 18, 2014)

Lol! No arguments about the benefits of tripe, just the thought of hauling a cooler of it inside to work. It's a smell that takes some getting used to. Hopefully, it's frozen and you can take the cooler home at lunch.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

oshagcj914 said:


> The co-op I use is in Michigan - based in SE with deliveries around there. It might be close enough for you if you have freezer space to stock up. The prices are pretty good if you want to check it out: Carnivore Carry Out - SE MID MICHIGAN RAW DIET CO-OP FOR DOGS & CATS. You do have to join prior to ordering, but you can check out the selection and prices. Carol, who runs the co-op, is a co-breeder with Penny at Pinafore standards. Carol also started Raw Food Diet for Dogs and Cats on FB. All the admins try hard to keep the crazy advice and spam out.


I just sent them an email to see where the farthest north place they deliver is. I live in Marquette, way far north on Lake Superior. I just looked at their prices and they are good! I have ordered from Hare Today Gone Tomorrow in order to get green tripe and other dog delicacies, because they do ship, but it sure adds up.

Do you have a link for the FB link? My spoo has Pinafore back a ways in his lineage. Thanks so much for the info.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

Liz - Good point about sourcing from Asian markets, I can probably make stops around to those, and the Mexican markets too... Once I know what I am doing, I'm sure I will!

Mfmst - Yeah I can't imagine the smell is going to be the best. I'll hoard it away in the back/break room. Though I don't think the dogs at work would complain!


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

kontiki said:


> I just sent them an email to see where the farthest north place they deliver is. I live in Marquette, way far north on Lake Superior. I just looked at their prices and they are good! I have ordered from Hare Today Gone Tomorrow in order to get green tripe and other dog delicacies, because they do ship, but it sure adds up.
> 
> Do you have a link for the FB link? My spoo has Pinafore back a ways in his lineage. Thanks so much for the info.


I think the northernmost stop is somewhere near Flint - that's a drive for sure! Possibly worth it if you have freezer space to buy a lot at once. I don't go to that stop so not sure exactly where it is- she delivers down through Indiana and Ohio except in the summer, so I only go to MI maybe once a year if I need to stock up in the summer months and I go near Detroit since it's only about 2 hours from me. I don't have a link for the FB group since I'm just on the app right now, but if you search for that title, it should pop up - Raw Food Diet for Dogs and Cats (Prey Model Raw). The group photo is a cat eating chicken off a little children's plastic plate 

That's cool that your spoo has Pinafore in the line! Where did he come from if you don't mind my asking? My plan for now is to get a Pinafore spoo puppy next year some time, but I'm thinking about looking for an adult dog, not sure I'll have the time for a puppy since I won't have anyone to help with letting the pup out during the work day.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Malasarus said:


> Liz - Good point about sourcing from Asian markets, I can probably make stops around to those, and the Mexican markets too... Once I know what I am doing, I'm sure I will!
> 
> Mfmst - Yeah I can't imagine the smell is going to be the best. I'll hoard it away in the back/break room. Though I don't think the dogs at work would complain!


Omg, tripe at work! That would be awful  Ethnic markets are a great place to get organs and cool stuff like heads and feet. If you know any hunters, that's also a great place for free meat. I have a friend on the east coast who also posts on Craigslist a lot looking for free meat. She gets a ton of freezer clean outs and feeds her two biggish dogs for under $50/month.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Jeepers - you are right. The drop off is near Flint in Burton, MI. It's almost 400 miles and 6 1/2 hours one way! I've only driven that way once in the last 15 years for a conference. Pretty much puts it out of the line of reasonable. ... Sure wish it was closer....


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Malasarus said:


> Liz - Good point about sourcing from Asian markets, I can probably make stops around to those, and the Mexican markets too... Once I know what I am doing, I'm sure I will!


Just make sure the meat is raised and slaughtered in the US or another trusted source, i.e. not China. I like to visit the store a few times and ask a different person on every visit just to be sure the meat is safe.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

oshagcj914 and Liz - My general area has a pretty diverse selection of ethnic markets, I'm sure I will be able to find something US sourced. I imagine it'll be a good way to get fish (no salmon, small fish are better, right?)? Ducks are a given. And goat... is goat safe? I don't think I have read anything on goat.

I'll probably be able to get hunted meat too. My dad enjoys duck/dove hunting, and sometimes deer. Between him and his friends I can probably get birds, deer, and maybe rabbit sometimes.


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## Liz (Oct 2, 2010)

Hunted meat is great. Freeze for two weeks first. Used to get deer organs this way. Dogs loved it.

Goat, also wonderful. Well, not for the goats.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Liz said:


> Just make sure the meat is raised and slaughtered in the US or another trusted source, i.e. not China. I like to visit the store a few times and ask a different person on every visit just to be sure the meat is safe.


Actually, much of the meat sold in our US grocery stores is imported. For example beef. Here is a list by country of where we have imported beef from just Jan to May in 2016. 792.9 million pounds of beef in 5 months. So you will likely find beef from many places in stores Asian or otherwise.

Interesting. I didn't know that but searched under meat imported to US.

U.S. Beef Imports By Country (Year-to-Date)

Here is another list, but not by amount:
Eligible Foreign Establishments

There was another link that I lost that described many meats where they originated in other countries and then were raised in the US.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

Malasarus said:


> oshagcj914 and Liz - My general area has a pretty diverse selection of ethnic markets, I'm sure I will be able to find something US sourced. I imagine it'll be a good way to get fish (no salmon, small fish are better, right?)? Ducks are a given. And goat... is goat safe? I don't think I have read anything on goat.
> 
> I'll probably be able to get hunted meat too. My dad enjoys duck/dove hunting, and sometimes deer. Between him and his friends I can probably get birds, deer, and maybe rabbit sometimes.


Goat is great too Sure wish I had even one good ethnic market! None within a 4 hour drive. 

Be really careful with hunted ducks, birds, and possibly rabbit. The bird shot I do believe is lead and poisonous. 

Sounds like you have some great sources.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

So Ripley has been eating raw for a few days now. His poo is still runny so I've added some canned pumpkin to his diet. Hopefully that helps out. His poo is a little more mucousy than I'd like to see, too. I believe I read that that is from too much fat? I'll try to trim some more off tonight's dinner. He's eating chicken wing right now, due to the higher bone content and general size of it. Seemed like a decent choice at the time to help make his tummy not upset, but I suppose my choice didn't work as planned. He'll adjust, I'm sure. I have some chicken breast in the freezer to start adding once he firms up, to up the meat content. Is there anything else I should be doing to firm him up, or just keep waiting?

When he starts eating organ in a week or so (good time frame?), do any of you guys have a good suggestion on which to start with? Just chicken liver for a bit? Liver + kidney?


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Malasarus said:


> So Ripley has been eating raw for a few days now. His poo is still runny so I've added some canned pumpkin to his diet. Hopefully that helps out. His poo is a little more mucousy than I'd like to see, too. I believe I read that that is from too much fat? I'll try to trim some more off tonight's dinner. He's eating chicken wing right now, due to the higher bone content and general size of it. Seemed like a decent choice at the time to help make his tummy not upset, but I suppose my choice didn't work as planned. He'll adjust, I'm sure. I have some chicken breast in the freezer to start adding once he firms up, to up the meat content. Is there anything else I should be doing to firm him up, or just keep waiting?
> 
> When he starts eating organ in a week or so (good time frame?), do any of you guys have a good suggestion on which to start with? Just chicken liver for a bit? Liver + kidney?


I personally don't do pumpkin unless I know why the dog is having loose stools (stole my pizza, got into the trash, etc). If you're using pumpkin to firm the stool now, you are not figuring out what the issue is or how much bone your dog needs. It's a bandaid, and not very helpful when you're starting this diet and trying to get everything figured out. Make sure your chicken is free of sodium/enhancements - that's a huge culprit with loose stools IME. If you got it from the grocery store and it came in the little foam package, it probably is. Have you tried thighs/legs? The quarters in the big 10 lb bags are usually good as far as little enhancements and better than wings, which are mostly meat and skin. The mucous is pretty common when switching. Chicken doesn't have much fat. You could remove the skin from the chicken for a few days to see if that helps firm up the stool, but then start to add it back in soon. Dogs need fat. 

I get dogs well adjusted to at least 3 proteins before adding organs. I started my pup on chicken leg quarters for about a week, then added beef, then turkey. I made sure I had good stools for about 5 days or so before adding the next protein, then added a little liver and slowly increased it. No need to rush. Figure out how much bone he needs, get good poop, then add a few more proteins before worrying about organs.


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

oshagcj914 said:


> I personally don't do pumpkin unless I know why the dog is having loose stools (stole my pizza, got into the trash, etc). If you're using pumpkin to firm the stool now, you are not figuring out what the issue is or how much bone your dog needs. It's a bandaid, and not very helpful when you're starting this diet and trying to get everything figured out. Make sure your chicken is free of sodium/enhancements - that's a huge culprit with loose stools IME. If you got it from the grocery store and it came in the little foam package, it probably is. Have you tried thighs/legs? The quarters in the big 10 lb bags are usually good as far as little enhancements and better than wings, which are mostly meat and skin. The mucous is pretty common when switching. Chicken doesn't have much fat. You could remove the skin from the chicken for a few days to see if that helps firm up the stool, but then start to add it back in soon. Dogs need fat.
> 
> I get dogs well adjusted to at least 3 proteins before adding organs. I started my pup on chicken leg quarters for about a week, then added beef, then turkey. I made sure I had good stools for about 5 days or so before adding the next protein, then added a little liver and slowly increased it. No need to rush. Figure out how much bone he needs, get good poop, then add a few more proteins before worrying about organs.


Great post. I agree with everything you said. This was exactly the method I used and still use if introducing a new protein. I will echo the leg instead of wing recommendation as well.


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## kontiki (Apr 6, 2013)

I agree with both oshagcj and with ct girl. I do the same. Oshagcj's post is very good.

Malasarus, you mention that Ripley has been eating raw now for a few days but did not say what meat you have fed him. 

My Spoo has been doing great on raw for years now and about 6 months ago he got the runs and became quite ill for several days. Sure enough, I had gotten complacent on checking labels. One brand of meat I had been using with no problem had started adding a 'solution', but only in one grocery store I went to. I am super careful about this now.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

Huh. I assumed wings would qualify as higher in bone than some other cuts, but I guess it's really not then? Sometimes he doesn't eat all of the bone, too. He figured out how to eat around the bone and get all the meat off it, so he's only eating about half of it! A little bit frustrating, haha. He likes the bone but not as much as he likes the meat.

And I don't think sodium is the culprit, I asked about it at the counter when they bagged it up for me out of the deli. But they could have been misinformed, it's possible.

I'll go buy some drumsticks today and he'll get that for lunch and dinner instead of the wings. Ans I'll try to find some good beef/turkey to prepare myself for his switch once he's firmer. If I switch to beef second, which cut is best to start him off at? I bet your Dane pup was quite a bit bigger than Ripley is!

His stool was a little firmer yesterday than it has been previously, which might be from the pumpkin I added. My sister didn't take the skin off when she fed him and he's still less mucousy than he was before, so I think that's a good thing and he's at least adjusting to that and I wont have to trim any fat off. I didn't want to have to do that anyway, I know fat is important.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

Malasarus said:


> Huh. I assumed wings would qualify as higher in bone than some other cuts, but I guess it's really not then? Sometimes he doesn't eat all of the bone, too. He figured out how to eat around the bone and get all the meat off it, so he's only eating about half of it! A little bit frustrating, haha. He likes the bone but not as much as he likes the meat.
> 
> And I don't think sodium is the culprit, I asked about it at the counter when they bagged it up for me out of the deli. But they could have been misinformed, it's possible.
> 
> ...


If he's not eating all the bone, try smashing the leg with a hammer a few times to break it up to help him get used to chewing the bone. Soon enough he'll be a pro. Then you could do whole leg quarters and either put it in the fridge when he's had a meal's worth or separate the leg and thigh. Finn ate whole quarters for his first meal at 5 months, but he also weighed 80 lbs. 

About the only beef I ever feed is either heart or ground (I use Blue Ridge Beef, the Breeder's Choice). It's the most affordable beef I can find. If I were you I'd stick with something like duck or turkey that is a little more "bland" for lack of a better term for the next protein. I did beef and it worked well for me, but Finn was easy to switch and never had bad stools until I went a little too crazy with the liver, plus the time he ate a 7 lb chicken in one meal. It may have worked for us, but it's probably not the easiest choice, especially heart - take it easy on heart when you introduce that.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

The hammer trick did it! Thanks a lot!


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

Chicken wings do have a lot of bone that is not the reason we are suggesting chicken legs. Chicken wings are too challenging for a dog new to raw. You want the more marrow filled bones that will encourage a dog to happily chew his bones. I avoid chicken wings altogether. Legs and quarters are what I would suggest. Later when he is comfortable with raw I still would not feed chicken wings. If you want a bone filled option backbone is good but for now stick with legs and quarters. Mucous does not necessarily have anything to do with fat. In your case it is probably because he is transitioning to a new food. How long has he been eating chicken? It seems quick to introduce a new protein already. You want to give his digestive track a little break before trying another new thing. I think you should wait until his stools normalize before moving on to a new protein unless you feel that chicken does not agree with him.


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## Malasarus (Apr 4, 2016)

Ah. I didn't know wings were hard for new raw eaters. He is on drums now. Seems firmer than before now that he's eating the bone after hitting it with the hammer.

I'm not going to switch to a new protein until his poo is looking better for several days at the very least. He's been raw for nearly a week. Just gathering information! I guess maybe turkey/duck, or pork next instead of beef?


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## CT Girl (Nov 17, 2010)

I think beef would be fine. I would save duck and pork for later as they are a bit rich. Rabbit or venison would also be good choices. Wings are more challenging. Lots of skin, not much meat and not much marrow in the bone. Chicken feet on the other hand yum! Using the hammer to get things started is a good technique and as your dog gets more comfortable with raw it probably won't be needed. I am glad to hear his poo is firming up. It is key to transition slowly as too many different foods is difficult for their digestive system to handle.


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

I think another poultry is the easiest for a second protein. I'd say beef and venison are more rich than duck. Pork would be ok if you pick leaner cuts. I'd do duck, rabbit, or turkey (if you can find clean turkey, the grocery store stuff is almost always high sodium).


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## Poodlebeguiled (May 27, 2013)

I didn't go as gradually as some folks recommend. I started with chicken for a week or so...all was good. Then I added lamb I think for a week. Then I did chicken again with some liver. I don't agree with waiting too long (as is often recommended) for the organ meat. I got that going within the first couple weeks I think it was. That is a very essential item. So, I made sure they were okay with that. However, I didn't do a whole bunch as one meal as is sometimes done. I put a tiny bit in each meal so they didn't get bombarded with it. And over a week or so, gradually increased to 5% liver and 5% of another organ meat, which gets varied. 

Then I think we tried some beef for a few days or a week, pork, perhaps some duck feet. (it's a little hazy now in my memory) I finally found and ordered my raw green tripe and a little bit of that is included in every meal. It's really a terrific addition. After trying 4 or 5 meats, I think I stopped doing all that....and just fed them all kinds of meats along with their bones and organ meats. I sort of forgot what I was doing I think. And got excited to try something new. They must have lead stomachs. Nothing bothered them. And they've been doing great ever since. Only once in a while do they have a problem and that's when I get too much or too little bone, too much organ or whatnot. For the most part, they are thriving well on their prey model raw diet. 

I played around with vegetables for a while, not sure which route I was going to take. We've since eliminated those, as they just don't need them. (imo)

My little wee dogs need little wee bones. So I mostly give them chicken bones or parts of chicken bones...the more delicate ones like wing parts, feet, they can handle a thigh but it's just so big so I don't get those anymore. Backs are fine. They can do rabbit bones. I'm careful about too much density as their teeth are tiny and I don't want them to break. But I must add muscle meat to the meal, as of course, these little bones typically don't have much meat. 

So unfortunately they can't have a big bone with lots of meat on it because the bone would be way, way too much for their 10% allowance. And probably too dense a bone for their tiny teeth. Little dogs are kind of harder to feed. They pretty much have to have small bones or parts that are the perfect choking size. But they so far, seem to be very careful about what they're doing. Maurice, my 4 pounder gets one or two (max) chicken _toes_. One foot lasts my two poodles a couple meals. When people say it's so expensive to feed raw, I can't imagine why. LOL. 

Some dogs seem to have more sensitive tummies than others. I know that the kibble and canned foods I fed before had all kinds of different meats in them. Like TOTW has several meats so I figured if they can stomach that, they can better stomach raw. I think it's easier to digest. Anyhow, everything will likely straighten itself out in a little time. I don't see why a puppy can't start right out on a raw diet, bones and all. Lots of people feed new pups this way. Another good source for information...that has helped me a lot is this site: Prey Model Raw - PMR dog food


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## oshagcj914 (Jun 12, 2016)

My future spoo breed weans her pups to raw. I believe she starts with something ground, but they're on whole meats pretty quickly, like by 6 weeks - chicken thighs and stuff like that. Puppies can usually move through the new proteins pretty quickly. When people ask, I usually recommend they get on 3 proteins before adding liver/other organs. For me with my pup, that was a little over 2 weeks as he adjusted easily. And I started with a small piece per meal and gradually increased. 

PB, try feeding a 150 lb dog - that's when it can get expensive if you don't have good meat prices! My pup was eating 5 lbs a day when he was growing! Now my 120 lb bitch eats 2 3/4 lbs a day, a little less now with this heat. I don't have small dogs obviously, but I raw fed 2 cats and I didn't find it too difficult. A chicken neck or thigh was great for their bone portion. They would even tackle an entire chicken drum or part of a duck frame. My smaller cat once stole a whole duck frame that was as big as she was, dragged it to her placemat, and was chowing down when I found her. It may have been more than 10% bone for one day, but I simply balanced that with some boneless meals. My cats always needed less than 10% bone too, so I fed whole prey in the morning and then just something boneless for dinner. FYI, whole prey can be a good option for toy breeds if you can get good prices, plus it's super easy. Drop a chick or rat in front of them and walk away. Easy peasy


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