# Obedience problems, going crazy



## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

My dog is pretty obedient, if I give him the "no" or "leave it", he will. Until I am out of sight that is. I think poodles are smarter than the average dog and know if you arent there to correct they can get away with it. That is my problem.

For example, my mini poodle isnt allowed in the kitchen for fear he will get stepped on, which almost happened a few times. If I'm there and tell him "no" he will ignore it very obediently. If I'm in another room I'll catch him sneaking in and when I catch him he'll sulk out, he knows he's not supposed to be there. 

Another example is being around electrical sockets, the crazy guy tries to lick and sniff them. If I'm around he'll leave them alone but as soon as I turn my back there he is sniffing them again. 

This is driving me crazy, someone please help me lol


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

As you say - poodles are intelligent dogs! Do you reward him for doing the right thing - treats tossed to him on his bed when he stays out of the kitchen, for example? Or can you shut the kitchen door, and remove temptation that way? For the fascination with sockets I would get some of the child proof covers, and fit them to all the ones he can reach - better safe than sorry. He obviously finds these behaviours rewarding - this trick is to give him something even more rewarding to do, rather than expect him to internalise some human concept of "right" and "wrong"!


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Could there be some sort of scent that he is detecting and tasting?


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

I think poodles got their bad rap from all of the goofy things they do. Imagine telling these stories about any other kind of dog! The uninitiated and unimaginative would not want one! LOL :act-up:


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

fjm said:


> As you say - poodles are intelligent dogs! Do you reward him for doing the right thing - treats tossed to him on his bed when he stays out of the kitchen, for example? Or can you shut the kitchen door, and remove temptation that way? For the fascination with sockets I would get some of the child proof covers, and fit them to all the ones he can reach - better safe than sorry. He obviously finds these behaviours rewarding - this trick is to give him something even more rewarding to do, rather than expect him to internalise some human concept of "right" and "wrong"!


Unfortunatelly there is no kitchen door, I've been treating him whenever he stays out of the kitchen but I think this and the other comment about him smelling something might be dead on. He knows there is food in the kitchen, sometimes on the floor so I'm sure he sneaks in to grab it before i can catch him. I havent vacuumed near the electrical sockets because they are around heavy furniture but I bet you anything theres some form of food down there he is smelling and wanting to get at.

Thanks for helping me get to the root of his behavior guys! Great brainstorm.

Also, he's kind of weird with exercise too. Any exercise just makes him more excited instead of him getting tired. I'll walk/run/scooter with him for a long time and he gets home and it's like it just ramped him up even more, he doesnt tire out and lay down to rest hes going and going. When he sleeps he's really calm though, and he prefers to hop in somebody's lap and just sleep all day. What's with this? He slept all night and he's been sleeping on me all day, lol.

Thanks guys you're a great community glad I found you.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

It sounds as if he may be a natural for what my dogs know as the Wheee! game. I take a few tiny scraps of treats - often the bits left in my pocket after a walk - they sit and wait, and I say Wheeeee! and throw the treats in the air! Dogs then race each other to find the most. As you may guess, I am not very houseproud, so a few hidden in nooks and crannies to be hunted out days later don't worry me. Or hunt the treat, where you hide them for the dog to find. Scavenging is such a natural behaviour for dogs it is probably easier to make it into a game than to try an eradicate it.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

Jeez louise, resounding yes, fjm! We play this game too. Saves him scavenging through the rubbish the teenagers (argh!) have left in the park. I'm amazed at the time he will spend meticulously locating every single tiny scrap.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

There's a great book by Jean Donaldson called "The Culture Clash: A Revolutionary New Way to Understanding the Relationship Between Humans and Domestic Dogs" that discusses this type of behavior.

It basically says that dogs will learn that a certain behavior is not acceptable *in your presence* but dogs have no concept of right and wrong so doing the same behavior when you are not present is an acceptable risk.

I have two baby/pet gates set up in the house to keep my new 14 month old SPoo from going into some areas if I'm not present. They were cheap and are easy to remove or step over if I want to access the space.


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

unfortunately my dog is a jumper and gates won't fix his behavior. It's amazing the way cesar milan gets his dogs to respect boundaries, though his techniques may be controversial.

I think a lot of these problems stem from the previous owners of this dog, hes cute and cuddly looking so they probably let him get away with murder. we got him at 10 months and he had no training whatsoever, no potty training, no sit, no stay. absolutely no training. it's really a nightmare and I'm considering taking him back to the pound. He has been returned a few times before, hes like the bad foster kid who keeps going back to the foster home.

I've read a book focused on positive reinforcement, he knows the commands yet he is very defiant unless he knows treats are involved. If things don't work out I really can't take it anymore, I have to watch him like a hawk all day or he will rip up our carpets, pull the tablecloth and lamp down, it's hard to be calm assertive when your dog tries your patience so much and just won't cooperate. I got a dog to have a calm happy companion but he's an energetic OCD mess of craziness. I'm starting to think he's beyond training.

I'm going to be doing positive association training for the next week if he isn't better after that then I dont know, I'm going back to school next month and my parents work full time, nobody can watch him 24/7 and crating him that long would be cruel.

How do I get him to stop bad behaviors such as chewing cardboard, biting/pulling the tablecloth? When I say no he'll leave it then 10 seconds later hes back.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry you're having these issues with your boy. My only other advice would be tons of exercise.

As for baby gates, they do make tall gates? That might be an option.


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

With the stairs, he will slip through the railing on the side if there is a gate, with the kitchen, it's doorless so putting a baby gate is out of the question. I need to find out how to better control his mind.


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## Searcher (Aug 7, 2009)

How much exercise is he getting?


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## Searcher (Aug 7, 2009)

I have many more questions.
How long have you had him? If he had no training before it will take some time to learn what is & is not expected. 
Why is he allowed to get to places in the house? Confine him. Tether him.
Do you have an ex-pen? You can also get gates that he would not be able to jump over. 
Are you getting upset with him rather than teaching him? If you are getting upset that is what he is focusing on. 
How are you training? 
Do you use a clicker? 

He should be treated like a puppy, given more freedom as he earns it. He isn't being defiant, that is a human emotion. He doesn't know the rules. Read "The Culture Clash."
I may be wrong but it sounds like you haven't had him for very long & if so I think you are expecting miracles.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

When I got my first SPoo I was also looking for a companion to spend time with me, no matter what I wanted to do. I ended up with a super high energy dog with tons of drive. I didn't have the experience to knowledge to know how to deal with him.

The suggestions you are getting here are good ones. You have to determine how dedicated you are to making out work with your dog.
You mentioned Cesar Milan so I will remind you of how he deals with challenging dogs...

Exercise, discipline & affection. In that order.

Also, Cesar has said "you don't get the dog you want, you get the dog you need." My crazy high energy dog taught me tons about myself & how I often am nervous & on edge. When I remained calm he was better, but I didn't learn this until he was much, much older. 

Look for solutions with an open mind. Think outside the box.

I have a stair case that ends with an opening/cut away so I can't put a gate there very easily. I just put it at the top of the stores. In a situation where a traditional gate won't work, I think they make very long gates & even free standing gates. I'm not saying these are the answer, but don't look only at what won't work, rather dream up what could work.


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

I adopted him about 2 weeks ago, potty trained him, taught him basic commands. I'm not getting mad at him, I correct him with a firm but calm "no". I've read the book "Dogtown" and have been reading internet articles constantly. For the first week he was confined to a room but he seemed to be doing well so well (we were just happy to have a dog and probably spoiled him with treats toys and affection.) I walk him for 30-45 minutes in the morning, an hour in the afternoon, and usually 45 minutes at night. I play games with him like tug and chase, I really think he just needs to run off leash but I don't trust him at the dog park. He growls, barks, and lunges at other dogs.

Someone already suggested that book, I thank that person for summing it up, which was helpful.

I do think that he is genuinely being defiant, I'm pretty sure he was spoiled by his previous owners (and a bit by us for a day or two). He knows what I mean when I correct him every time he goes in the kitchen, or every time he jumps on the couch. Or when my parents tell him "come," which he knows very well, but he would rather run away wild. He will only do something if there is a food reward for him every time, if you don't have a treat he gives you a look like "why should I, you don't have a treat."

Basically, he does what he wants. Chewing cardboard boxes, disobeying commands, pulling tablecloths after repeatedly being told "no" and "leave it", stealing socks- whatever he wants to do with utter disregard for authority even though he is being trained and corrected. He jumps on people regardless of anyone telling him "no" and he will continue to jump for several minutes. 

Yes I do clicker training, my problem with him is his disregard for authority.


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## sparkyjoe (Oct 26, 2011)

Wow! You've only had him 2 weeks & you've already taught him basic commands & potty training?!? He sounds brilliant! But he likely has a cubic ton of energy.

Walking probably won't cut it, even several hours a day. Dogs are built for travel & humans generally walk too slow to really tire a high energy dog. Can you maybe find someone with a fenced yard you can use?

Or maybe you could get him a back pack & put some weight in it? The extra weight helps wear them out a bit, and it gives them a "job."

Really, 2 weeks is nothing. If he really had a rough start in life then it could take 2 months to settle into your house.

Oh, and *of course* he's going to challenge you. He needs to learn if you are going to be a leader he can trust & follow.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

I'm not sure if you have mentioned how old he is? Sounds very much like an adolescent! It does sound as if his previous owners did little socialisating or boundary setting, but I am a bit uneasy with the idea that he is challenging your authority - I suspect he is doing what has always worked in the past. If it does not work in your house, he will do it harder, and more often, until eventually trying something else. Think of it as kicking the drinks machine when it fails to deliver! (Another insight from The Culture Clash!).

Two weeks is a very short time - sounds as if you are all doing brilliantly when your time together is still really only a matter of days. For the house training issue, I would take him out every hour, with a pocket full of treats, and wait until he delivers. If he is for some reason uncomfortable about going where someone can see him this may take ages, but if he is as food motivated as you say, eventually you will be able to reward him for going in the right place. Enough reinforcement for going outside will eventually overcome the preference for inside, as long as at the same time you keep him close to you so that he cannot keep doing it, but it will take time. 

I would also be using lots and lots of food rewards with him at this stage - you can start fading them out in a month or two when the behaviours you want are established, but I have never really understood why "because I say so" should be a sufficient reason for a dog to do as we ask. "Because often it means Really Good Things for Poodles follow!" is so much more powerful as an argument! I know one woman who prides herself on never using treats for training, and who gets excellent results and is adored by every dog who knows her - she rewards them by getting down on the floor in a love-fest of baby talk, cuddles, wrestling and tummy rubs! I do take that approach as often as I can, but sometimes a scrap of chicken is the easier option, especially when one has slightly dodgy knees.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

I understand this.... imagine my surprise when I found out the my "perfect carley" was getting up on my white sofa when I was not home! LOL She never does this when I am home, but let me leave and the sofa is all hers. I have a throw on it now and life goes on...


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## Searcher (Aug 7, 2009)

I am really concerned about your attitude. Being defiant is a human emotion. You seem to be expecting him to have human emotions & thoughts. He is doing what has worked for him in the past. When starting to retrain, the behaviors you don't want but that have worked will increase for awhile until he figures out that they no longer work. You have had him for only 2 weeks! There is nothing wrong with giving him a reward for doing what he is told. If treats work use them. Get rid of the idea that dogs do things like humans. He is a dog, reward him when he does what you want & ignore the unwanted behavior. And do not think he has commands down in only 2 weeks. Confine him when you can't be with him or can't watch him. Put him in an area that he can't get into trouble in, preferably where he can see you if you or anyone is home. Don't put him in situations where he can do things you don't like. It is your responsibly to have him in situations where he does the right thing. He also needs a lot more exercise.


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## Carley's Mom (Oct 30, 2011)

Just read some more of this thread. You have only had him 2 weeks!!!!! I think he is doing great. I am lucky to live in an area that my dogs can run free off leash all the time. I don't know how a dog would ever get enough exercise on leash... Take him to a friend's house with a fence and turn him loose. Find another dog he likes and set up playdates. He is a puppy that has had a hard time so far, take it slow on him. Love him , play with him and he will come to want to please you, but this takes time.


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

He definately needs more exercise. Maybe he isn't defiant in the human sense but he has learned that he doesn't always have to do what he is told, probably by his last owners not following through 100%

For example today he got ahold of some shoe laces in my closet, as soon as I saw him take them I said no and he dropped them, I put them back. Later I find he has them in his crate chewing on them again.

It usually takes 2 corrections before he completely stops something. Example him scratching the carpet to chew on the wires. First correction "chht" and "no". He stops for 5 seconds then continues. Second correction he finally gets up and moves.

He needs some work but overall he's a good pup, just needs some exercise, discipline, and manners.

He is an adolescent, 10 months that is probably where some of his rebelliousness is coming from, still working with him and he is getting better by the day, just takes a lot of consistency and repetitions.

The book I read and am constantly referring back to Dogtips from Dogtown is very insightful. It comments on how most dogs won't repeat a command over and over, for example they say he may only want to sit 3 or 4 times by command in a short time. (my parents are constantly telling him sit! sit! sit! sit! sit!, they don't abide by what I tell them which is to say the command once and then enforce it (with a light tap on the butt). In a way they are setting him back training-wise but hey what can you do, they just won't remember/listen no matter how many times I tell them.

Usually he only sits on the second command unless there is a treat for him, I guess his real issue is following through. He probably walked all over his previous owners but not I. Typical spoiled pooch.

BTW he is potty trained for the most part, no accidents and he can usually hold it for 8-12 hours. I take him out 3 times a day for the bathroom and havent had an accident except one time on the 2nd day, I wish I could find a way for him to tell me _when_ he has to go instead of me guessing.


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## fjm (Jun 4, 2010)

Sounds pretty typical adolescent dog, to me - in fact, he sounds very obedient and obliging for a typical adolescent! I am not a fan of CM, although some of his advice is good. The whole "me pack alpha, you lowly subordinate", and having to be dominant over your dog thing is now very much an explodeed myth. 

One thing that I think we all tend to forget is that for dogs learning is situational - we say "Sit!", and eventually the dogs learns to sit (although as he has no idea that the word means anything, it may take some time - luring him into a reliable sit, and only then adding the word is a better way!). We humans then assume he has learned to obey the word Sit!. What the dog has probably learned is "When this particular human stands in front of me in the sitting room, and looks at me in a certain way, and waves his hand in the air in front of my nose, and makes a noise beginning with SSS, it may be worth sitting". Jean Donaldson's book "Train your dog like a pro" is excellent on how to generalise commands, and on just how much patient repetition is involved in truly training a dog!

Many people on here have had success teaching their dogs to ring a bell when he wants to go out. Others have removed the bells because of the incessant ringing ... !


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## chopsui (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for the compliment and the insight. I will look into that book it seems interesting. And yeah my girlfriend did the whole bell thing but now he just rings it whenever he wants to go into the back yard. Wish there was a solution to that.

Thanks again to everyone who's been involved in my post it helped me understand a lot more about my dog and we're doing much better, we've been enjoying him too much so taking him back to the pound is out of the question, time to bring on the training.


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## petitpie (Nov 16, 2011)

Yes, there is a solution. Just put a bell on the outside for him to ring when he wants to come it.


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## happybooker1 (Dec 6, 2011)

*About chewing the cords & stuff...*

You need to physically GET UP and provide him with an alternate to do. Dog digs at rug--you get up and physically remove him from situation and give him an acceptable chew toy. Praise him when he busies himself with the toy. You may have to repeat it a dozen times before he gets the message you mean business. 


Occassionally toss him a treat when he's laying on his bed or rug quietly. Praise him. At first he will get up and come to you to see it more treats are forthcoming. Ignore him. As soon as he goes and lays down again toss him another treat and praise. He'll soon get the idea.


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## catsaqqara (May 20, 2011)

I have my dogs ring the bell. I say give him opportunities to just be outside, and when your guessing when he has to go, hang the bell for him to ring before you take him out to potty then put it away until next time. Do that for a couple weeks, its what I did for Jaden and he rarely rings to go out and hang.


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## Rowan (May 27, 2011)

chopsui said:


> ...
> *For example today he got ahold of some shoe laces in my closet, as soon as I saw him take them I said no and he dropped them, I put them back. Later I find he has them in his crate chewing on them again.*
> 
> *It usually takes 2 corrections before he completely stops something.* Example him scratching the carpet to chew on the wires. First correction "chht" and "no". He stops for 5 seconds then continues. Second correction he finally gets up and moves. Get used to it. It'll take a lot more than 2 corrections but constant supervision until he learns his boundaries. As someone else said, get up and correct him. Give him something of higher value--something appropriate like a toy or bully stick--to chew on or play with. Praise him when he stops the unwanted behaviour, etc.
> ...


*Bolding is mine.*
I agree with everything that *Searcher*, *fjm *and other posters have said. You need to remove your emotions from the situation. He's not a human toddler, he's a _dog _and anthropomorphizing him is only going to cause additional problems and stress on your part. 

Basically, you need to go back to square one and start his training as if he were an 8-week old puppy. In the case of the shoelaces, you caught him in the act and corrected him. But then what? He's loose so he was able to go right back _and nobody corrected him_ because _nobody was watching him._ That's inconsistent! Puppies should _never _be left out of your sight and this little guy is still a puppy, in both age and training. If you can't watch him, crate him or tether him to you. That's the best way to set boundaries. 

Dogs learn through consistency and repetition. If you catch him chewing a shoe and correct him, he'll stop. If he tries it again and you don't correct him, he'll continue with the behaviour. He's not being spiteful or defiant. He's taking advantage of an opportunity. Dogs like to chew. Period. He'll eventually learn what's his and what's yours (to chew) but he won't learn via mind reading.  He needs you to guide him. Same goes for getting up on furniture. If you only correct him or catch him 50% of the time, he's not going to get it. That's where crate and/or tethering come in until he's learned his boundaries and what is and isn't acceptable. 

Take solace. Most puppies get over the rambunctious puppy stage around one year of age. They stop teething and have passed through all the puppy phases. Alex stopped scratching bath mats when he hit the big O-N-E. 

As for letting you know when he wants to go out: when I took my puppies or rescues out, I looked at them and said, "Do you want to go out?" in an excited voice while taking them to the back door. They now give me 'the look' or go to the back door when they need to go out, and if I ask them if they want to go out, I get a little dance. (While they're eliminating, it helps to repeat a code worse or phrase like "go squirt" so you can then get them to go on command while traveling or during storms, etc.) 

I did the same thing for walkies and they now run to the front door and/or grab their leashes. Again, it's all about repetition and consistency. A lot of hard work goes into well-trained/mannered dogs, but it's incredibly rewarding. 

Best of luck and I hope this helps. 
ETA: These are just my opinions and what has worked for me with five poodles. I'm not a trainer and I'm certainly not an expert.


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## JE-UK (Mar 10, 2010)

What she said :smile:.

Dogs do what pays. Full stop. 

Suzanne Clothier has a grid in her book, showing the difference between how we see household items and how dogs see them. 

Table leg - chew toy
Shoe - chew toy
Linoleum - chew toy
Stair riser - chew toy
Rawhide - chew toy
Sofa - comfy place to sit
People bed - comfy place to sit
Dog bed - comfy place to sit

It's up to us to make it MORE rewarding to do the things we WANT the dog to do, rather than just imagining the dog is some mutant Lassie freak that will just MAGICALLY UNDERSTAND that the shoes are off limits. We can do that by constantly supervising so the dog doesn't practice behaviours we don't want, and by offering legal substitutes for the things the dog chews that we would prefer he not. 

Poodles are eminently trainable!! 

If you are training with food, and the dog is holding out for the offer of payment before executing the behaviour requested, you may be guilty of luring rather than training. "Look, Fido, here is a biscuit, please sit" quickly becomes no biscuit, no sit. There are some good references out there for how to move to a variable reinforcement schedule, including some good articles on DogStarDaily.com on how to fade the food lures.

Good luck!


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## Sookster (Apr 11, 2011)

I'm not going to say much here as a lot has already been said, but the BIGGEST thing I notice in every post that you have made is "I correct" or "I say no". You are constantly telling him what NOT to do. We can spend all day telling our dogs "don't do this" or "don't chew that" or "leave that alone" or "don't sit there" but in doing so we never actually let them know what they SHOULD be doing. So they are constantly guessing, and since they see things a lot differently than we do they tend to guess wrong a lot. 

Spend more time telling and showing him what to do instead of what not to do. Catch him chewing the rug, go ahead and tell him to leave it and then physically redirect him to an appropriate toy to chew on. Catch him going into the kitchen? Go ahead and tell him "no" and then redirect him to do what you would rather him be doing (I recommend the place command, just search it). Catch him on the sofa? Tell him "off" and then show him a better place to lie down (his dog bed). Show him the RIGHT thing to do and reward him for that, and he will be more likely to choose that option in the future. 

If you continue to have problems, I highly recommend finding a professional trainer to come in and work one on one with you and your pup so that they can SHOW you how to do these things. Good luck, and hang in there. Sounds like you are pretty diligent and want this to work out. Be patient with him and reward for the small steps. Don't wait for him to make huge monumental leaps on his own. You are going to have to help him get there and show him the way.


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