# Oh no! Someone advertising Merle poodles



## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

'Pierre' is the first pic of one of her dogs. He's pretty strange looking.


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## Viking Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Vita said:


> 'Pierre' is the first pic of one of her dogs. He's pretty strange looking.


I took a look too...would agree..Pierre is pretty strange. Such a shame people are so dishonest. One of the pups on her page looks very aussie like...maybe she is using mini aussies.

At any rate, it's disgusting.


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## Dechi (Aug 22, 2015)

Very disturbing. Such a dishonest person. Such a liar.

The «*contact*» option on her website doesn’t work anymore. I wonder why she disabled it. Maybe she was getting too many hate emails...


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## blueroan (Dec 28, 2015)

I would guess the mini Aussie strain as well, some of those pups have blue eyes, which is prevalent in Aussies.


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## glorybeecosta (Nov 11, 2014)

Dechi said:


> Very disturbing. Such a dishonest person. Such a liar.
> 
> The «*contact*» option on her website doesn’t work anymore. I wonder why she disabled it. Maybe she was getting too many hate emails...


You are right, I was going to write her and ask why she did not make up her mind what breed she wanted to make money on and leave the poodles along. I though most of them we strange looking.


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## ericwd9 (Jun 13, 2014)

Where there are people with money but little in the way of common sense or education, you will find other people preying upon them.


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## Charmed (Aug 4, 2014)

Yeah, I still see Hidden Meadows in Temecula advertising their merle poodles, too. I know they had one that they thought was all poodle and when DNA tested he had Australian Shepherd. That did not stop the breeder, though. The 2,800 dollar price tag on merle pups pretty much tells you why the breeder is selling them. :disapointed:


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## MollyMuiMa (Oct 13, 2012)

What I don't understand is why the AKC registers them.....I know AKC has a very stringent DNA purebred testing program and I don't get why somebody hasn't reported these so called 'merle breeders' to the AKC and they(the AKC) accordingly insisting on the testing of these dog being advertised for sale........I thought it was up to them to keep the stud book clean of paperhangers?

See 'Conditional Registration' on the AKC website.........it says this

Q: What about dogs which are not purebred? 

A:Conditional Registration is only for dogs that appear purebred and had full AKC registration prior to the DNA exclusions being found.

IF THE DOGS IN QUESTION DO NOT APPEAR TO BE PUREBRED, AN IMPURE BREEDING COMPLAINT CAN BE MADE TO THE IMPURE BREEDING COMMITTEE, WHICH WILL OPEN AN INQUIRY AND TAKE APPROPRIATE ACTION.

All AKC has to do is look at them for G's sake!!!
SO why do I see sellers saying they have AKC Merle Poodles???????


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## chinchillafuzzy (Feb 11, 2017)

Very recently there was a petition floating around of FB something about making Akc start taking action against all of these Merle breeders who are registering the pups. Last I heard that there might actually be some changes in the works. Let's hope so. I groomed a Merle schnauzer today. His coat is also very weird - kind of curly. I have no idea what he is a mix of, but the owners think (and I'm sure were told by the breeder) that he was a purebred schnauzer. It's not even cute and it really makes it hard to groom his face and make it even because of the odd patches of color all over. It makes me sad to think that poodles are being bred to other breeds and then people are lying about them being purebred. People that don't do their research fall for the hype.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Yeah, I still see Hidden Meadows in Temecula advertising their merle poodles, too. I know they had one that they thought was all poodle and when DNA tested he had Australian Shepherd...


After looking at the site, I wonder if the Hidden Meadows poodles are *mismarked parti*s. In the Quick Summary at the bottom of the Merle page on Dog Coat Colour Genetics, it says _"All merles may have blue or partially blue eyes, and pink or partially pink noses."_

Five of the six breeding poodles listed at Hidden Meadows have dark eyes and noses, only Truffle has light eyes and a pink nose. They may or may not have others they breed, but I notice they have limited contracts on their pups. Maybe several generations back they used an Aussie to get the Merle pattern, but I swear I read somewhere that long ago toy poodles were crossed with Maltese or Bichons to gradually get their smaller size, so this sort of thing is not unheard of.

Personally, I think she has some really beautiful poodles, and one is so cool it surfs and won 2nd place in a SurfDog competition. My only criticism is that genetic health testing is not clear. In the contract it says "This puppy is guaranteed to the original buyer for (1) one year against hereditary/genetic diseases..." 

Well heck, this gives the unknowing buyer a false sense of security since the majority of genetic problems rarely show in young dogs, and indicates to me a lack of effort in improving their line and the breed, OR they're hiding something. Again, this is too common among many breeders, not just them. 

For as much as they (or any high end breeder, for that matter) charge per puppy, it seems to me they could do a genetic disease panel on their breeding dogs so they they aren't breeding in the blind, i.e. playing genetic roulette, and not risk misery down the road for one of their poodles and buyers if it turns out to have PRA eye problems or something else down the road.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita said:


> Five of the six breeding poodles listed at Hidden Meadows have dark eyes and noses, only Truffle has light eyes and a pink nose.
> 
> Personally, I think she has some really beautiful poodles, and one is so cool it surfs and won 2nd place in a SurfDog competition.


Wow, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And surfing doesn't do anything for me, but that's just me


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

Vita the merle gene is an autosomal dominant gene that in its heterozygous state yields the dappled coloring and light pigmentation, but if two merles are crossed there is a 25% chance of homozygous dominant outcomes which is a lethal. IMO there just isn't any sense to adding a gene that is associated with problems to a breed that doesn't have that trait just because some people like the look. Personally I don't much care for the merle look. Any "poodle" that is merle absolutely is not 100% a poodle and should not be able to be registered as such. That said there is no reason not to register such a dog as an "All American" so it could run in agility or other sports.

I just googled merle poodles before looking at the site posted originally and one site I looked at had merle labradoodles, so they aren't even labradoodles since merle isn't present in labs either. On top of thinking that most of the dogs looked pretty poorly put together they were also abominably badly groomed. As Eric said into any void occupied by thoughtless people with money to spend on something faddish a greeder will concoct some poor excuse for a dog and label it as a designer product.

So sad...


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

lily cd re said:


> Vita the merle gene is an autosomal dominant gene that in its heterozygous state yields the dappled coloring and light pigmentation, but if two merles are crossed there is a 25% chance of homozygous dominant outcomes which is a lethal...


Yes, I'm well aware. The link I gave, Dog Coat Colour Genetics, is to a page all about that.



lily cd re said:


> I just googled merle poodles before looking at the site posted originally and one site I looked at had merle labradoodles, so they aren't even labradoodles since merle isn't present in labs either. On top of thinking that most of the dogs looked pretty poorly put together they were also abominably badly groomed...


I agree about the first site, Silver & Blue Merle Miniature Poodles, and had said they look strange. I also agree with you that they also appear poorly put together and poorly groomed. 

However, my last comment was strictly about Hidden Meadows. I can't tell if you looked at that site where I suggested that they could be mismarked partis, but that I liked their look. They also to me look healthy, well cared for and well groomed. I also mentioned that they sell them with limited registration, meaning they are not allowed to reproduce. My criticism was about whether or not that breeder has done genetic panels on their poodles.

While I too prefer that poodles not be mated with other breeds, realistically this isn't going to happen. One reason is that some poodles mixes are genuinely cute to a lot of people. 

The other reason is a matter of _supply and demand:_ a lot of our best breeders sell their poodle pups as to-be sterilized pets only with limited registration, resulting in a shortage of well-bred, genetically healthy poodles. Reasons range from the humane to not wanting future competition in shows. 

Thus, high demand, low supply, people loosen up what they want look local for a poodle mix rather than go state hopping for a purebred. I've mentioned this point of view once before on another thread. No comments about that from anyone, if I recall. 

Food for thought: It's easy to criticize designer breeders, but what about our own who jack up the price for an unlimited registration or flat out refuse to sell their pups with one? In this sense, we are our own worse enemy by so severely restricting the best of the breed to reproduce.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Vita said:


> .
> 
> While I too prefer that poodles not be mated with other breeds, realistically this isn't going to happen. One reason is that some poodles mixes are genuinely cute to a lot of people.
> 
> ...


*"Jack up the price?" Do you know how much it costs to show and maintain poodles? Show breeders usually break even or even lose money. And they refuse to sell pet quality puppies on an unlimited contract because that is the ethical thing to do. If a buyer is interested in showing, a show breeder will sell a puppy on a show contract. Only show quality dogs should be shown and bred if we want to continue to keep the breed to the standard. If only the best are bred, there are still plenty of puppies available as pets--at this time. *


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

*Agree to disagree*

Zoeysmom, Your opinion is noted. For clarity and for the record, part of your opinion is in the bold font mixed in with mine in your framed quote as belonging to me.

Since you added the expense of showing and maintaining poodles, not all good breeders show b/c of the time and expense, but they own a nice well bred female or two and use a stud service with champion sired males.

You also disagreed in bold font "There is NO shortage of poodles from show breeders at this time." Here, I think you're on shaky ground: many PF members spent months and traveled far to find a well bred poodle pup. They are told it's sold with a limited registration _unless_ they want to pay more or do a co-ownership. This shows there is nothing 'wrong' with the pup, it's the breeder's preference to do this for reasons that are then in a different ball park which I already addressed in my previous post.


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

Vita said:


> many PF members spent months and traveled far to find a well bred poodle pup. They are told it's sold with a limited registration _unless_ they want to pay more or do a co-ownership. This shows there is nothing 'wrong' with the pup, it's the breeder's preference to do this for reasons that are then in a different ball park which I already addressed in my previous post.


Anyone who charges more for an unlimited registration is not an ethical breeder. The purposes of limiting registration are 1) to prevent the breeding of dogs of inferior quality and 2) to discourage irresponsible breeding - such as breeding dogs who have not been tested for genetic diseases, breeding "doodles", etc.

I suspect the notion that a breeder is charging extra for unlimited registration might, in some cases, be simply that some puppies in the litter are of lesser quality and are sold with limited registration and the better ones are sold with unlimited registration. I certainly have done that.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

The distance traveled and/or the time to wait to find a good pup also depends I think on the size dog you want. There are lots of great standard breeders and standards tend to have bigger litters (Lily was from a litter of 8 and Javelin from a litter of 9) so they are pretty easy to find. But mpoos are somewhat less common overall and they and tpoos tend to have smaller litters so you might wait and or have to travel to find the right pup.

Although some of the Hidden Meadows dogs look nice they are clearly doing something that isn't legit since they have merles that they say are merles (and really are) along with their partis. Those dogs that are merle absolutely can't be 100% poodle. I also don't like the klein/moyen breeding she talks about since she doesn't seem to have true moyen stock. You should call a dog a moyen if it is really only a petite standard. I have always been annoyed by people who tried to convince me Lily was moyen when she is in fact a perfectly "in size" standard at 22 3/4".

As to crosses, yes they are popular and the genie is out of the bottle there, but I still think introducing a gene like merle into a breed that doesn't have it is stupid since there are health problems associated with it.

As for limited vs. unlimited registrations and the like we have had those discussions over and over. I don't think any of us is likely to change our minds.


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

Catherine, you'll get no disagreement from me about what you said with one caveat: since Hidden Meadows says they only sell puppies that can't be bred, I give them a pass _*if*_ they've done full panel genetic disease testing, which I've said before, and I'll take a leap of faith that they have the common sense or experience to not breed two Merles together since then they'd get disgruntled customers who might even sue them. There appears to be a small market for what they're selling, so given the neuter/spay clause, I don't see them as a threat to the standard of the breed by selling their pups as pets.

As an afterthought (and food for thought, for me) , perhaps the concern is that others will follow suit and won't have spay/neuter contracts, thus introducing Merle genes into the population, so I can see the concern there. In that sense, this would compromise the breed over time if the idea catches on, and indeed, would be stupid. 




Johanna said:


> Anyone who charges more for an unlimited registration is not an ethical breeder...


This is very good to know; from experience it's been the norm, along with huge non-refundable deposits without an end date when a puppy will be born. 

I spent last summer and into the early autumn looking for a well bred tpoo without a contract and strings attached mainly b/c I don't like contracts. Yeah, I have ideas about showing one day and maybe having a litter, but my adversion to strings attached would make me feel like my dog is not truly _my_ dog.

So I widened my search to along the East Coast. Some were very good and well known breeders and showers. Again and again, I ran into that issue and it p'd me off. I was 24 hours away before giving up and looking for poodle-y toy breed when I found Bella. I was 100% honest with the breeder who in turn had great respect for me. I felt she was doing me a huge favor by not charging extra for an unlimited registration, but now I know it wasn't a favor, she's just a very ethical person.


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## lily cd re (Jul 23, 2012)

I think that whether the dogs are on limited registrations or not introducing merle is honestly just a jackass thing to do. Nobody is going to get a pass on that from me, especially not if they advertise the dogs as poodles, because they simply aren't. We will have to disagree on this.


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Hugely disagree with so much on this thread :sidefrown: :thumpdown:


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## Vita (Sep 23, 2017)

That's fine, it really is. 

I've lived long enough to know that no one agrees with someone else on everything. It's often a sign of a stagnant or boring relationship when they do or that they're 'going along to get along'. Common ground on most issues is enough for me and I don't get mad or hold grudges, so I hope no one else here feels that the few ways I/we have diverse in opinions overshadows the 90% areas we have in common. 

In the end, it doesn't even matter if by some chance everybody feels passionately about one thing because short of getting AKC rules changed, the public will do what it wants regardless, and even then folks will do what they will do.

And I'll add that I care about all of you, your poodles, and PF. Together we are fantastic!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

*An amusing update to this thread*

Well, as luck would have it, I met a Hidden Meadows dog the other day when I took Frosty to the park! I didn't know it until just now when I asked the dog's caretaker which breeder he was from. I didn't immediately make the connection, so I searched it on the forum. And what do you know, I have nothing but good things to say about the dog. He was adorable, very well trained, and has a fantastic temperament. So...while I still disagree with breeding merle spoos, this breeder is clearly doing something very right. Oh, and this dog we met was a phantom moyen - great size.


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