# Naturally Reared poodles



## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

What exactly do you consider naturally reared? I understand dew claws left on and tail undocked, but what else would constitute natural rearing?


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

I may be using the wrong term, but by "Naturally Reared" I was meaning those breeders that do not use vaccines (or other toxins) and that they feed raw. Raising dogs in such a manner for several generations in order to produce healthy pups.
Honestly did not realize that dew claws were left intact, but then again is that considered a bad thing?


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## FunkyPuppy (Jan 27, 2011)

I know of many BYBs in my state that fill your criteria, except for the feeding raw. But these people dont crop, dock, or vaccinate because they're cheap and uneducated, not to satisfy any moral obligation.

By the way, the rabies vaccine is required by law. I believe the use of titers is accepted in lieu of new vaccines is allowed in some states, but the dog still needs to have been vaccinated at some point. Also be aware that most (if not all) boarding kennels and some grooming salons require proof of vaccinations, and keeping your pet up to date is usually written into many an ethical breeder's contract.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

rubymom said:


> I may be using the wrong term, but by "Naturally Reared" I was meaning those breeders that do not use vaccines (or other toxins) and that they feed raw. Raising dogs in such a manner for several generations in order to produce healthy pups.
> Honestly did not realize that dew claws were left intact, but then again is that considered a bad thing?


Sorry, but I do not know anyone who feeds little pups raw, and I think finding someone with generations of raw feeding behind them will be a trick since it has not been popular for long. Vaccines...that will be a trick too, though you may find breeder who do it later than normal.

I just figured when you mentioned natural that you meant no altering either. Quincy has his full tail and dew claws. I find the dews a pain in the bum, but the tail is no issue at all.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

FunkyPuppy said:


> I know of many BYBs in my state that fill your criteria, except for the feeding raw. But these people dont crop, dock, or vaccinate because they're cheap and uneducated, not to satisfy any moral obligation.
> 
> By the way, the rabies vaccine is required by law. I believe the use of titers is accepted in lieu of new vaccines is allowed in some states, but the dog still needs to have been vaccinated at some point. Also be aware that most (if not all) boarding kennels and some grooming salons require proof of vaccinations, and keeping your pet up to date is usually written into many an ethical breeder's contract.


While you are correct that most BYBs place $$$ above everything else and is not their end goal to produce healthy, happy dogs, you may not be aware that there are holistic alternatives to many of the chemical managing methods used today in rearing dogs. Personally, I am trying to raise my Ruby with as few toxins as possible and I'm trying to keep abreast by learning from other owners and professionals. 
As far as the rabies vaccine,yes, it is required by law, that's a different matter. 
However, there is a great deal of information out there about the long term effects, frequency of use and when NOT to vaccinate a dog for rabies.

Once again, keeping informed of new information is my means of making the best decissions for my Ruby to live a happy, healthy life!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Sorry, but I do not know anyone who feeds little pups raw, and I think finding someone with generations of raw feeding behind them will be a trick since it has not been popular for long. Vaccines...that will be a trick too, though you may find breeder who do it later than normal.
> 
> I just figured when you mentioned natural that you meant no altering either. Quincy has his full tail and dew claws. I find the dews a pain in the bum, but the tail is no issue at all.


Several breeders feed puppies raw from the time they are weaned off of mom. There are also several breeders who have been doing this for several generations. :smile:


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rubymom said:


> While you are correct that most BYBs place $$$ above everything else and is not their end goal to produce healthy, happy dogs, you may not be aware that there are holistic alternatives to many of the chemical managing methods used today in rearing dogs. Personally, I am trying to raise my Ruby with as few toxins as possible and I'm trying to keep abreast by learning from other owners and professionals.
> As far as the rabies vaccine,yes, it is required by law, that's a different matter.
> However, there is a great deal of information out there about the long term effects, frequency of use and when NOT to vaccinate a dog for rabies.
> 
> Once again, keeping informed of new information is my means of making the best decissions for my Ruby to live a happy, healthy life!


I completely agree that a dog should be exposed to a minimum amount of toxins. I will be following a limited vaccine protocol.

However, I personally would not be willing to get a puppy that has not had any vaccinations. I know some people who are incredibly headstrong  about not vaccinating, but they STILL do the very minimal puppy shots. Parvo is not something to mess with.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

You know, there are associated risks involved with the " to vaccinate" and the "to not vaccinate" groups , it simply comes down to individual choices, differences and circumstances.
But I'm certain that each of us here are making our personal choices based on the love of our dog!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rubymom said:


> You know, there are associated risks involved with the " to vaccinate" and the "to not vaccinate" groups , it simply comes down to individual choices, differences and circumstances.
> But I'm certain that each of us here are making our personal choices based on the love of our dog!


Absolutely! I'm just saying that there's no way I would ever make that choice.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Several breeders feed puppies raw from the time they are weaned off of mom. There are also several breeders who have been doing this for several generations. :smile:


Well, I know of none, so give the lady some names...lol!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I completely agree that a dog should be exposed to a minimum amount of toxins. I will be following a limited vaccine protocol.
> 
> However, I personally would not be willing to get a puppy that has not had any vaccinations. I know some people who are incredibly headstrong  about not vaccinating, but they STILL do the very minimal puppy shots. Parvo is not something to mess with.


I agree. If you have ever seen a dog die of Parvo, I think you would want to make sure that this vaccine was received by a puppy.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

It's important to consider that one single round of vaccines can and does often provide lifelong immunity. Puppy shots and the 1 year booster, and it is very likely you will never need to vaccinate again. I personally think that ONE set of vaccinations is very much worth the trade-off. ONE set of vaccinations is not even in the same ballpark as the damage that over-vaccinating causes. 

Are you prepared to never be able to take your dog anywhere? Do you live in the country? How will you socialize your dog if you cannot take him or her in any public place?


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## PaddleAddict (Feb 9, 2010)

There are breeders who do minimal vaccines on their adult dogs and puppies, but I think you will be hard pressed to find a breeder who gives no vaccines. 

My own dog won't be getting any more vaccines except rabies which is required by law and intranasal Bordetella, which I would prefer not to give, but our doggie daycare requires it. He received his puppy series (no lepto, all vaccines were separated) and one-year boosters. I won't be doing any more vaccines.

I think a no-vaccine policy is very risky, especially for parvo, which potentially fatal and preventable with vaccine. It would be hard to safely socialize your puppy with other dogs without at least the puppy series. I followed Jean Dodd's vaccine protocol, which is pretty well thought of among progressive pet owners and vets.

I don't know any mini breeders who feed 100% raw, but maybe there are a few out there. I know my own breeder recommended high-quality grain free food plus fresh meat, tripe, etc. I assume she feeds something similar to her adult dogs. She is pretty progressive and encouraged me to separate my puppy's vaccines and wait until 6 months old to give the rabies vaccine.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> It's important to consider that one single round of vaccines can and does often provide lifelong immunity. Puppy shots and the 1 year booster, and it is very likely you will never need to vaccinate again. I personally think that ONE set of vaccinations is very much worth the trade-off. ONE set of vaccinations is not even in the same ballpark as the damage that over-vaccinating causes.
> 
> Are you prepared to never be able to take your dog anywhere? Do you live in the country? How will you socialize your dog if you cannot take him or her in any public place?


Respecting your personal opinion to the utmost, I would simply say that the health of my dog cause me to investigate every avenue of information to make my best conclusions and decissions. 
When you ask how I plan to socialize my dog, I associate and navigate with other dog owners locally that share similar views. No, I do not visit public dog parks with Ruby because I am judging the contaminants to not be worth the risks. I select other play enviroments to explore. If we visit PetSmart or need a vet visit, she is in a stroller. Again, it's all about Ruby's exposure when I can do so.
No, we do not live in the country. ( If so, I would be more proactive on the issues of wildlife roaming and the risks associated. ) 

Believe me when I say, I have addressed many grooming, boarding, vetting, training and socializing issues for my Ruby as I seek to provide her with as toxic-free a life as possible! Certainly, I do not have total control of everything (Ruby has already had several dental procedures that involved chemical use, but it was crucial at that time in her life!)
I am just trying to do what I think best for my sweet girl!
And, as said earlier, I know that, in the end, thats what we all are doing!


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

PaddleAddict said:


> There are breeders who do minimal vaccines on their adult dogs and puppies, but I think you will be hard pressed to find a breeder who gives no vaccines.
> 
> My own dog won't be getting any more vaccines except rabies which is required by law and intranasal Bordetella, which I would prefer not to give, but our doggie daycare requires it. He received his puppy series (no lepto, all vaccines were separated) and one-year boosters. I won't be doing any more vaccines.
> 
> ...


I agree completely with limiting what vaccines ARE given and spacing them out, rather than the all-in-one shots the vets like to give! I think Dr. Dodd's work is helping to turn many people away from the every-shot-every-year mindset and is helping to raise the bar on lifelong pet health!
(Dr. Dodd consulted with me about my previous miniature poodle and she provides great information and documentation about toxicity/liver issues!)

As far as the food, I feed Ruby a high grade kibble w/ homecooked supplement and things seem fine. It is just that I will soon be out for the summer and I can be with my girl 24-7, so I feel that I owe it to her to try going raw! Who knows? It may not work for her OR it may show super results?! I just have to try!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rubymom said:


> Respecting your personal opinion to the utmost, I would simply say that the health of my dog cause me to investigate every avenue of information to make my best conclusions and decissions.
> When you ask how I plan to socialize my dog, I associate and navigate with other dog owners locally that share similar views. No, I do not visit public dog parks with Ruby because I am judging the contaminants to not be worth the risks. I select other play enviroments to explore. If we visit PetSmart or need a vet visit, she is in a stroller. Again, it's all about Ruby's exposure when I can do so.
> 
> Believe me when I say, I have addressed many grooming, boarding, vetting, training and socializing issues for my Ruby as I seek to provide her with as toxic-free a life as possible! Certainly, I do not have total control of everything (Ruby has already had several dental procedures that involved chemical use, but it was crucial at that time in her life!)
> ...


Have you considered that you may be trading one set of problems for another? Keeping your dog away from public places because of a fear of contaminants? Putting your dog in a stroller, like a human child, and sheltering her from existence as a dog seems to be far more harmful than putting her though one set of vaccinations.

What about the contaminants that are in kibble? I'd venture to guess that feeding kibble is far more harmful than *one* set of vaccines.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Spacing the vaccines is critical. Some vets are terrible at wanting to shoot them up for everything or trying to get them done early UGH. Mine know now after years of being with them. My pups get their puppy series PARVO scare me to death so I could NOT protect them as pups. However rabbies is the only shot mine get now, once a year. Do you do heartworm? I see your in my state  - we are in a high risk state. I hate giving it but I reluctantly do it every month.

Breeders that feed raw are out there. I am not a mini searcher although I love them. I know a handful spoo breeders that feed Raw once the dogs are weened! Never experiencing kibble. Imagine that LOL. Raw is getting more and more attention and has been on the rise for the last 10 years. 

Several of the breeders I know I am not 100% at what age they start their pups but I know that desertreef does hers from the point of weening. She is a big on Raw.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

contact Tiara poodles, from her website she seems to meet ALL of your requirements Rubymom...and she has been involved with the breed for YEARS so has plenty of knowledge to help you out 

a member here, Outwest, just got a standard puppy from her and seems very happy with her dog...I'm not sure if she breeds mini's but I know she breeds smaller standards and may be able to point you in the right direction.

Tiara Poodles

And I think what Cherie said, is that you will be hard pressed to find a breeder that has completely RAW fed dogs for a few generations seeing as RAW is a relatively new/popular thing (as of the past 10 years like Olie pointed out)


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## Fluffyspoos (Aug 11, 2009)

Desert Reef feeds her puppies and adult dogs raw, and follows limited vaccination protocol. She also gives raw feeding information to buyers, as well as a vaccination schedule to follow.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Have you considered that you may be trading one set of problems for another? Keeping your dog away from public places because of a fear of contaminants? Putting your dog in a stroller, like a human child, and sheltering her from existence as a dog seems to be far more harmful than putting her though one set of vaccinations.
> 
> What about the contaminants that are in kibble? I'd venture to guess that feeding kibble is far more harmful than *one* set of vaccines.


I personally do not equate an occasional stroller trip in a high contaminate area as keeping my dog away from the publlic and denying her a normal existance. LOL!!! It's just my choice of limiting exposures. (No doubt, with Ruby being a miniature, she sure fits better into a stroller than she would if she were a standard! LOL!!!)
As mentioned previously, Ruby gets lots of social exposure in what I judge to be safer enviroments. (In fact, Ruby starts her third training class in a couple of weeks to gain her CGC! Ruby loves people!)

And the kibble issue, I'm sure ANYTHING could possibly contain harmful contaminants, even high grade kibble! But, in my search for "better" , I am committing to trying raw so that I can have more control of what exactly goes into my dog. I just keeping trying to learn more and improve!
Honestly, I really have my girl's best interest at heart!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

DesertReef is one of the breeders I was going to recommend, who feeds raw from weaning, cherie. I can provide a more comprehensive list when I get home. Although, it does not appear that any of the breeders would rubymom's requirements, as they all follow a limited vaccine protocol, which she does not appear willing to do.

Also, I disagree with the claim that raw feeding is a new concept. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Raw has been around for a very long time. Longer, actually, than kibble.

Kibble has been around for approximately 100 years. It became popular around the time that TV dinners and Tang were created for convenience. Raw feeding has existed for 1 million + years.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> DesertReef is one of the breeders I was going to recommend, who feeds raw from weaning, cherie. I can provide a more comprehensive list when I get home. Although, it does not appear that any of the breeders would rubymom's requirements, as they all follow a limited vaccine protocol, which she does not appear willing to do.
> 
> Also, I disagree with the claim that raw feeding is a new concept. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Raw has been around for a very long time. Longer, actually, than kibble.
> 
> Kibble has been around for approximately 100 years. It became popular around the time that TV dinners and Tang were created for convenience. Raw feeding has existed for 1 million + years.


I know dogs ate raw in the wild, but also know that 10 years ago if someone had said they were feeding their dogs raw meat, it would have been difficult to get a puppy from a breeder. It was unheard of as recently as that, unless you go back to the dark ages...lol!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> I know dogs ate raw in the wild, but also know that 10 years ago if someone had said they were feeding their dogs raw meat, it would have been difficult to get a puppy from a breeder. It was unheard of as recently as that, unless you go back to the dark ages...lol!


Well, before kibble was invented, which was only 100 years ago, dogs ate raw and scraps. Also, many people have been feeding raw for more then 10 years. There's an entire yahoo group with 21,000 members, many of which have been feeding raw for decades.

It is accurate to say that raw feeding has not been "mainstream" until recently. But people have been feeding their dogs raw for much longer than ten years.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Well, personally, I do not care for the idea of raw-period. I do not care if someone else chooses to feed their dog raw. As a matter of fact, as long as it is good quality food, I don't much care what anyone feeds, I do know that as recently as ten years ago, in our neck of the woods, people were not considering raw, or at least not admitting to it. And I would think the bigger issue in this thread would be lack of a parvo vaccine on a dog.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well, personally, I do not care for the idea of raw-period. I do not care if someone else chooses to feed their dog raw. As a matter of fact, as long as it is good quality food, I don't much care what anyone feeds, I do know that as recently as ten years ago, in our neck of the woods, people were not considering raw, or at least not admitting to it. And I would think the bigger issue in this thread would be lack of a parvo vaccine on a dog.


I completely agree about parvo. But it is also false to say that raw feeding has only existed for ten years. It is also false to think that feeding high quality kibble is anywhere near equivalent to feeding raw.  There is no question that raw feeding is THE best diet for our dogs. It's only us humans that have trouble with it.  

There have been people feeding their dogs raw, I'll bet even "in your neck of the woods" whether you knew it or not.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> I completely agree about parvo. But it is also false to say that raw feeding has only existed for ten years. It is also false to think that feeding high quality kibble is anywhere near equivalent to feeding raw.  There is no question that raw feeding is THE best diet for our dogs. It's only us humans that have trouble with it.


Well...that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Well...that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.


Actually, it's relatively scientific, if you look at the way nature has designed dogs and wolves. Their bodies have been created to digest raw meat. Not processed food. Dogs are scientifically genetically the same as wolves. Believing kibble is more appropriate for dogs is equivalent to thinking that processed, yet balanced, cereal is more appropriate for humans than fresh food. 

I understand not being comfortable feeding raw. I get that completely. I would never judge someone for feeding kibble because raw feeding doesn't fit into their life, or their schedule, or because they are intimidated. That being said, I don't understand how someone can actually believe that *processed* food is better than fresh, raw food that our carnivores were designed by God to eat.

I will add that I am with rubysmom in that I believe our dogs were not designed to have to have vaccines. Ideally, none of us would vaccinate our dogs. It is only because of the risk of fatal disease that I think that one series of puppy vaccines is worth it.

Open up your eyes and see the light, Cherie.


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

ChocolateMillie said:


> Actually, it's relatively scientific, if you look at the way nature has designed dogs and wolves. Their bodies have been created to digest raw meat. Not processed food. Dogs are scientifically genetically the same as wolves. Believing kibble is more appropriate for dogs is equivalent to thinking that processed, yet balanced, cereal is more appropriate for humans than fresh food.
> 
> I understand not being comfortable feeding raw. I get that completely. I would never judge someone for feeding kibble because raw feeding doesn't fit into their life, or their schedule, or because they are intimidated. That being said, I don't understand how someone can actually believe that *processed* food is better than fresh, raw food that our carnivores were designed by God to eat.
> 
> ...


Ummmm...what are you talking about? Raw feeding? Nobody will ever convince me to feed my dogs raw. Vaccines? FYI...we now follow the Jean Dobson protocol and Betty-Jo and Jenny are titred, as will my other breeding dogs. See the light? I am pretty sure I already have. Thanks for the advice though not solicited, and considering you do not know how we deal with vaccines, pretty rude to boot.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

ArreauStandardPoodle said:


> Ummmm...what are you talking about? Raw feeding? Nobody will ever convince me to feed my dogs raw. Vaccines? FYI...we now follow the Jean Dobson protocol and Betty-Jo and Jenny are titred, as will my other breeding dogs. See the light? I am pretty sure I already have. Thanks for the advice though not solicited, and considering you do not know how we deal with vaccines, pretty rude to boot.


I'm not addressing vaccines in relation to you. I am only asking you to open your eyes and at least understand that feeding raw is far more appropriate than processed kibble. I could care less what anyone feeds their dog, but to believe that processed kibble is actually more appropriate than fresh, raw food is truly a distortion of reality. Again, I understand making the decision not to feed raw. I don't understand ignoring nature and believing that something that has been processed is superior to something that has not been processed. A kibble feeder must at least consider the fact that what they are feeding is less than *ideal*. Do you think wolves were processing their food? Are you aware that our dogs have identical digestive tracks?


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## spoofly (Jan 20, 2010)

I have been wondering about this for a while. Fly is due for her annual rabies vaccine. I do NOT want to over vaccinate my dog. Can anybody shed some light on this issue? Or share a link with some good information/vaccination schedule. Are the annual vaccines any different from the rabies given every 3 years?


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

spoofly said:


> I have been wondering about this for a while. Fly is due for her annual rabies vaccine. I do NOT want to over vaccinate my dog. Can anybody shed some light on this issue? Or share a link with some good information/vaccination schedule. Are the annual vaccines any different from the rabies given every 3 years?


They are identical. Get the 3 year vaccine. The only difference is the legality of how long your locality will allow you to go until you need another vaccine. 

I made the mistake of getting the 1 year vaccine last year for Henry. I have truly learned from this and will only get the 3 year shot from this point on.


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## spoofly (Jan 20, 2010)

What are the long term effects of over vaccinating?


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoofly said:


> I have been wondering about this for a while. Fly is due for her annual rabies vaccine. I do NOT want to over vaccinate my dog. Can anybody shed some light on this issue? Or share a link with some good information/vaccination schedule. Are the annual vaccines any different from the rabies given every 3 years?


We give the IMRAB 3. It is good for three years as long as the previous shot was done within a year.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

When I mentioned 10 years - this is my experience with research and most of that truly coming from breeders. Raw has been around for many many years. 

Breeders are spending more and more time learning and testing different things about nutrition. I respect and admire breeders that attend seminars so they can learn the real facts of a dogs digestive system and the pros and cons to kibble and or Raw. (And others like vaccine protocols etc)


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

spoofly said:


> What are the long term effects of over vaccinating?


It can make a dog susceptible to all of the immune mediated ailments, and some feel it is a contributor to Addisons disease and possibly Sebaceous Adenitis.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

spoofly said:


> I have been wondering about this for a while. Fly is due for her annual rabies vaccine. I do NOT want to over vaccinate my dog. Can anybody shed some light on this issue? Or share a link with some good information/vaccination schedule. Are the annual vaccines any different from the rabies given every 3 years?


The state of SC is annual 

Sorry read your post wrong, as you knew this already. : )


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Rubymom...I wish you the best of luck in locating a breeder who will be everything you are looking for. Please, keep us posted.


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## spoofly (Jan 20, 2010)

Olie said:


> The state of SC is annual
> 
> Sorry read your post wrong, as you knew this already. : )


Hey Olie,

I work at a grooming salon, and we do require dogs have their rabies vaccination. We often get dogs in with the three year vaccine. I know that doesn't mean it's lawful. I have never heard that it is supposed to be anual. Then again, I've only lived in SC for a year!


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## Poodle1 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi Millie,

I have rotated feedings: 1 day raw, 1 day kibble and 1 day home-cooked. My standards did very well on that - and it gave us flexibility when traveling. Interestingly enough, when Breeze whelped her litter - she would ONLY eat raw - she turned away everything else - normally she enjoyed everything else and ate lots of it! When she was rearing her litter - it was as if her body new that raw was the only right choice for her. And the puppy thrived on raw as well. As far as vaccines go, we did a monovalent Parvo at 10 weeks and then a monovalent Distemper at 14 weeks. One month later, a titer test. Our vets believe that if the vaccines are administered when the puppy is older (when the dam's antibodies are not in conflict with the vaccine), fewer vaccines have to be administered. My own litters are proof of this - as well as many other litters in the practice. Paris, my foundation bitch has not required Parvo or Distemper since she was 16 weeks old. We do annual titers on her to ensure her levels are safe. It will be a relief when all vets and the owners start to truly understand the importance of minimal vaccines. And my litters are always very well socialized - we have not lost anything with this way of raising our standards. Catherine


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Poodle1 said:


> Hi Millie,
> 
> I have rotated feedings: 1 day raw, 1 day kibble and 1 day home-cooked. My standards did very well on that - and it gave us flexibility when traveling. Interestingly enough, when Breeze whelped her litter - she would ONLY eat raw - she turned away everything else - normally she enjoyed everything else and ate lots of it! When she was rearing her litter - it was as if her body new that raw was the only right choice for her. And the puppy thrived on raw as well. As far as vaccines go, we did a monovalent Parvo at 10 weeks and then a monovalent Distemper at 14 weeks. One month later, a titer test. Our vets believe that if the vaccines are administered when the puppy is older (when the dam's antibodies are not in conflict with the vaccine), fewer vaccines have to be administered. My own litters are proof of this - as well as many other litters in the practice. Paris, my foundation bitch has not required Parvo or Distemper since she was 16 weeks old. We do annual titers on her to ensure her levels are safe. It will be a relief when all vets and the owners start to truly understand the importance of minimal vaccines. And my litters are always very well socialized - we have not lost anything with this way of raising our standards. Catherine


Hi Catherine!

I was recently talking with someone who mentioned exactly what you just said  - that vaccinating puppies before their dam's antibodies have worn off is essentially useless. In fact, she said that if vaccines are given after (I think 24 weeks?) the 1 year adult booster set is not needed and they should have lifetime immunity.

If only more breeders would hold off on the vaccines for a few weeks.

I believe that limited vaccine protocols like the one you use are essential, and this is a perfect example of how we can limit the toxins we put in our dogs' bodies yet still protect them.


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Interesting discussion. He is only one dog - not a litter and I am not a breeder, but...

Vinnie has been fed raw from the day I got him at 11 weeks. Karin did feed some raw, some home cooked and some kibble (she wants the puppies to be good eaters and used to eating anything). He was vaccinated as a puppy, but has not been vaccinated since for any distemper combo and his titer came back fine. He has had two rabies vaccinations (one at six months and one a year later). I am in Iowa and we can vaccinate every three years for rabies, so it will be a while before his next rabies. I'll titer annually for distemper/parvo.


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## Poodle1 (Mar 21, 2011)

Hi, I forgot to say in my original post that my Dad fed our standards and our dobie raw food - and that was from the 1950's to the 1980's. Our poodles lived amazingly healthy lives - our standards until 15 and 16 years of age, respectively and our dobie until 14. And they were all healthy until the day they passed. Catherine
PS: Here are some photos of my Mom or Dad with the poodles from the 50's and 60's. Look how healthy and pudgy the puppies are in Cliquot's litter!


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## ArreauStandardPoodle (Sep 1, 2009)

Just wanted to say those are awesome photos! Thank you for sharing them. Fantastic!


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## Quossum (Mar 18, 2011)

What great snaps! Thanks for sharing those!

--Q


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

LOVE love those photos! And I love to hear that your parents' poodles were fed raw!


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## Poodle1 (Mar 21, 2011)

Thank you Millie for your kind words - I agree with your perspective one hundred percent! Catherine


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## Poodle1 (Mar 21, 2011)

ChocolateMillie said:


> LOVE love those photos! And I love to hear that your parents' poodles were fed raw!


Oh my gosh - I am so sorry I addressed you as Millie - please accept my apologies for that mistake!!!!!! Please give both Millie and Henry a poodle hug and kiss from me. So Sorry!

Catherine


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## Poodle1 (Mar 21, 2011)

AgilityIG said:


> Interesting discussion. He is only one dog - not a litter and I am not a breeder, but...
> 
> Vinnie has been fed raw from the day I got him at 11 weeks. Karin did feed some raw, some home cooked and some kibble (she wants the puppies to be good eaters and used to eating anything). He was vaccinated as a puppy, but has not been vaccinated since for any distemper combo and his titer came back fine. He has had two rabies vaccinations (one at six months and one a year later). I am in Iowa and we can vaccinate every three years for rabies, so it will be a while before his next rabies. I'll titer annually for distemper/parvo.


I am sure you and Vinnie have many, many healthy years together! I love his focus in your fabulous photos!

Catherine


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

Rubymom, I pm'd you. I don't want to mention specific breeders. 

My puppy was holistically reared on a totally raw diet for the last three generations. Vaccinations are on a limited basis and given late due to titers being good. I was given the vaccination vials to give to her myself (breeder didn't want me to think they weren't given for a monetary reason, I guess) since I got her before 14 weeks. No worm medication is given (my puppy tested negative at the vets with a completely clean bill of health). They are treated by a holistic veterinarian. The tails are docked, but not the dew claws. 

I can't say as I totally agree with some of it, and I was considering taking the dew claws off if I have her spayed. Many people swear by a holistically raised dog. I take my dogs a lot of places around other dogs, so I have had her vaccinated, but my vet does stagger vaccines. There is parvo around and if you plan to take the puppy anywhere you want to at least get that one. You can now have the dogs vaccine titers checked by the vet and they can tell you if they are immune or not. Rabies is by law- no getting around that even though there has not been a case of rabies in a domestic dog in decades! The pounds need that revenue. 

There are several in Southern California raised this way that are not Bring Your Bucks breeders. I was given a ton of raw food to take home with my puppy (a coolers worth and they gave me the styrofoam cooler!). My puppy was chipped, too.

By the way, your story about your parents dogs reminded me of my mothers dogs when she was young. She told me that people who wanted to be good to their dogs in the 1930's- 1950's always fed them fresh horse meat that you would get once a week from the butcher. All her dogs as a child were fed like this and lived long, healthy lives. They would also give them fruits and vegetables and table scraps in addition. They didn't even have anything like dog kibble until after world war 2. It was developed as a military ration for the army dogs. Her dogs all ate raw meat.


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## littlestitches (Dec 28, 2009)

I have learned a lot from this thread. It honestly reminds me of some of the breastfeeding/vaccination/cloth diaper vs disposable diapers discussions on some parenting boards I used to frequent. 

Some things i have learned are that everyone is trying to do their absolute best for their children and dogs and no one solution works for everyone.

At this point I do not know how I will be feeding my spoo when I get him, but I will be looking into the best for my dog and my family. As far as the vaccines, I am going to have to follow what ever course will allow me to travel with my dog between the US and Canada. :airplane: I know there are vaccination requirements to cross the border and since we will be traveling back and forth and eventually settling back in Canada, I will have to follow the rules that are set out.

I will be looking into most of the information here to find the best solution to my family and spoo's needs.

Paula


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## Trixie (Apr 13, 2011)

littlestitches said:


> I have learned a lot from this thread. It honestly reminds me of some of the breastfeeding/vaccination/cloth diaper vs disposable diapers discussions on some parenting boards I used to frequent.
> 
> Some things i have learned are that everyone is trying to do their absolute best for their children and dogs and no one solution works for everyone.
> 
> ...


Hi Paula,
I don't know what the requirements are to travel between the US and Canada but we had a bad experience in regards to animal custom requirements between America and France. We ended up having to get 2 rabies vaccines within 2 months because she was not micro-chipped before the first vaccination. She was vaccinated in late January. Brought her to the vet to get micro-chipped in late March and they informed us that she needed to first have the micro-chip and then the vaccination even though she was only vaccinated about 8 weeks before! We researched it beforehand but it was difficult to find the correct information because the USDA said one thing and French customs told us another. We were really upset, but there was nothing we could do because she could have been deported if she didn't get the 2nd shot. 

Anyway, I wanted to share our experience just in case there's a rule like that between US and Canada- don't want you to make the same mistake we did!


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

rubymom said:


> You know, there are associated risks involved with the " to vaccinate" and the "to not vaccinate" groups , it simply comes down to individual choices, differences and circumstances.
> But I'm certain that each of us here are making our personal choices based on the love of our dog!


 
If you don't vaccinate for parvo you are playing russian roulette with your pup's life. I work closely with my vet to space vaccines and I use titers as well to make sure we're not overvaccinating, but I would *never* *ever* not vaccinate for parvo or not use heartworm medication.

I also feed raw, as do many people on this forum. So Please don't assume we aren't as up to speed on raising our dogs naturally. we all love poodles--and quite frankly you do come across in your email as a bit know-it-all. There is a lot of good knowledge here based on cumulative centuries of poodle raising among us--you and your dog would be best served to listen to what people say rather than thinking we're just sheep and vaccinating and feeding without thought.


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

FozziesMom said:


> If you don't vaccinate for parvo you are playing russian roulette with your pup's life. I work closely with my vet to space vaccines and I use titers as well to make sure we're not overvaccinating, but I would *never* *ever* not vaccinate for parvo or not use heartworm medication.
> 
> I also feed raw, as do many people on this forum. So Please don't assume we aren't as up to speed on raising our dogs naturally. we all love poodles--and quite frankly you do come across in your email as a bit know-it-all. There is a lot of good knowledge here based on cumulative centuries of poodle raising among us--you and your dog would be best served to listen to what people say rather than thinking we're just sheep and vaccinating and feeding without thought.


Respectlfully, shared opinions here are based on an individual's experience base and knowledge. We are all different and that is why I value learning from others before I make my own opinions. I have my reasons why I am searching now for information from other poodle owners/ breeders on "natural rearing." I feel that they may have a perpective on things that I am not aware of or have thought about. It's kinda like the raw feeding. I knew little about the benefits of raw until I was willing to venture from my comfort base of kibble feeding and learn that it could be a great thing for my Ruby! Turns out, i'm going to try going raw in a few weeks! 
. 
Vaccinosis literature is coming out everyday, the Rabies Challenge Fund is plugging along in states to spread information, Dr. Dodd's limited vaccine protocol is being referred to more often, the Perdue Vaccine study has recently hit the news, ....there is so much pointing to damage done by vaccines, poor diet and toxins! I will not ignore possible detriments to my dogs health! And the only way I can address these issues for myself is to keep seeking and learning!


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## AgilityIG (Feb 8, 2009)

Poodle1 said:


> I am sure you and Vinnie have many, many healthy years together! I love his focus in your fabulous photos!
> 
> Catherine


Thank You!!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rubymom said:


> Respectlfully, shared opinions here are based on an individual's experience base and knowledge. We are all different and that is why I value learning from others before I make my own opinions. I have my reasons why I am searching now for information from other poodle owners/ breeders on "natural rearing." I feel that they may have a perpective on things that I am not aware of or have thought about. It's kinda like the raw feeding. I knew little about the benefits of raw until I was willing to venture from my comfort base of kibble feeding and learn that it could be a great thing for my Ruby! Turns out, i'm going to try going raw in a few weeks!
> .
> Vaccinosis literature is coming out everyday, the Rabies Challenge Fund is plugging along in states to spread information, Dr. Dodd's limited vaccine protocol is being referred to more often, the Perdue Vaccine study has recently hit the news, ....there is so much pointing to damage done by vaccines, poor diet and toxins! I will not ignore possible detriments to my dogs health! And the only way I can address these issues for myself is to keep seeking and learning!


So, I'd like to know. Exactly what steps will you be taking to prevent your dog from contracting Parvo?


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## rubymom (Apr 24, 2010)

ChocolateMillie said:


> So, I'd like to know. Exactly what steps will you be taking to prevent your dog from contracting Parvo?


Unless I put her in a bubble, I KNOW that I cannot prevent my dog from contracting anything. I am only human. But, I know that I can lessen the chances!
First of all, Ruby has been vaccinated for parvo and I will obtain titers as needed. Planned steps include: limited exposures, provide healthy lifestyle to facilitate natural immunity and I have joined several homeopathic groups that provide great info/training on common situations and diseases.
I have also located a nearby holistic vet that may be a better fit for Ruby and myself. 
Most importantly, I will continue learning all I can as I read about new findings in dog health!


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

rubymom said:


> Unless I put her in a bubble, I KNOW that I cannot prevent my dog from contracting anything. I am only human. But, I know that I can lessen the chances!
> First of all, Ruby has been vaccinated for parvo and I will obtain titers as needed. Planned steps include: limited exposures, provide healthy lifestyle to facilitate natural immunity and I have joined several homeopathic groups that provide great info/training on common situations and diseases.
> I have also located a nearby holistic vet that may be a better fit for Ruby and myself.
> Most importantly, I will continue learning all I can as I read about new findings in dog health!


I'm not talking about Ruby. I essentially follow the same vaccination protocol as you are with Ruby.

I am referring to the puppy you are planning on buying with NO protection whatsoever. You do not seem open to the idea of even a single parvo vaccine, or a limited vaccine protocol like that described by the breeder yesterday evening.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

rubymom said:


> It's kinda like the raw feeding.!


actually, refusing to vaccinate your dog for parvo is nothing like raw feeding. Dogs who don't raw will still live, thought (in many peoples' opinions) not as healthily. 

Canine parvoviral enteritis: a review of diagnosis, management, and prevention - Prittie - 2004 - Journal of Veterinary Emergency and Critical Care - Wiley Online Library

>>CPV remains a significant worldwide canine pathogen. In experimentally affected dogs, mortality without treatment has been reported as high as 91%. However, with prompt recognition of dogs infected with CPV-2, and aggressive in-hospital supportive therapy of severely affected puppies, survival rates may approach 80–95%.<<

_Note the key words: prompt recognition, and aggressive in hospital supportive therapy. Why on EARTH would you risk putting your puppy through such a hospital experience?_

Not to mention...if you knew that there was a disease, currently present in your environment that had a 20% chance of killing you or your child or parent, but you could remove that risk to statistically insignificant levels approaching zero through a vaccine, you'ld take it. 

So I ask, *Why are you willing to gamble with your puppy's life?* And if you do, please don't come here crying when your puppy is sick and/or dies, because you will receive NO comfort here. You came to hear advice, so let's see if you actually do have as open a mind as you claim.

Also, and I need to rant here because quite frankly, you are being selfish. you risk every dog in your community, puppies, immunocompromised dogs, etc when you don't vaccinate. This is the same BS argument being used against childhood vaccines, and it makes me sick to my stomach. There are other dogs in the world besides your own.


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## frostfirestandards (Jun 18, 2009)

even with vaccines parvo is prevelent in the south. i had a fully vaccinated 6 month old puppy come down with parvo. she ended up spendcing a week in the hospital and had a feeding tube placed. if your puppy does come down with parvo,are you just going to treat it at home most likely not, and what do you think the vet will do? thats right pump it full of chemicals to save its life,or if you do not wish to treat they will administer a chemical to end it.

i work at a vets office and the number of dogs coming through the doors this time of year diagnosed with parvo is staggering. 


i follow a limited vaccine protocol and so far so good, but i fully believe that all dogs should have some vaccines...anything else is just asking for heartache.


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## Trixie (Apr 13, 2011)

Shouldn't this be more about sharing information rather than personal attacks?


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## schnauzerpoodle (Apr 21, 2010)

I personally would never skip any of the puppy shots and not parvo. Parvovirus is known to be able to survive on inanimate objects for 5+ months. I don't think it can be prevented simply by "limiting exposure". After all, your dog deserves to go out and do what dogs are supposed to do in this world.

Minimizing vaccinations, yes. But completely ditching everything…. I would never do that.

There are new research coming out everyday but I won't jump in for the new ones right there. Even holistic vets give vaccinations to animals. They just insist on spacing them out and giving them later.


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## outwest (May 1, 2011)

The trouble with waiting and spacing out the vaccines is you can't take the puppy anywhere with other dogs until they are older. It is just easier and less worrisome to get the darned vaccines, expecially for parvo. I believe a young puppy should be fully socialized when young. 

My thinking is a little different than some of yours. I believe in full puppy vaccinations, but limiting them later in life. Many dogs develop lifetime immunities from their puppy series and getting a vaccine every year isn't necessary. The only one I am assuming I will need more often is bordatello since it is a wimpy vaccine that doesn't last long. 

The risk of disease in a totally unprotected puppy is just too great. Vaccines are not the devil. The issue is over-vaccinating. If our children were not vaccinated we would still have loads of children dying of things like Diptheria and Polio. 

Now, I guess we are way off the OP topic. 

I plan to get the full puppy vaccines (which are being staggered by my vet) and then checking titers later rather than automatically vaccinating. Rabies is a three year vaccine in California.


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## dazydaizee (Nov 24, 2009)

NaturalRearing.com ~ Breeders Directory

That might help you out if you're still looking. Not all fit the criteria and you'll have to check out the breeders yourself, but it's at least a step toward locating natural rearing breeders.

Raw feeding & vaccine debates are always so vicious and personal, so rather than argue I'd just like to say I support your decision to seek out a natural rearing breeder. I was lucky that my dog's breeder practiced limited vaccination and fed grain-free, high quality food. Still, I made the decision to refrain from further vaccinations and to start a prey-model raw diet the day I got my puppy at 9 weeks old. My dog lacked no bit of socialization and hasn't been sick a day in his life. That dog has been everywhere and interacts with other dogs every single day since he comes to work with me at the grooming shop and at least a couple times a week he has off leash time in a variety of areas that other dogs and wildlife frequent. Immunity is developed with exposure (after the initial maternal antibodies), so it should be gradual rather than flooding the dog with every threat to his safety all at once- vaccines or not. Dogs do show positive titers for certain diseases WITHOUT being vaccinated as well. The decision is still one to be researched and made by the pet owner, and we all agree that everyone makes their decision based on their pet's best interest.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

dazydaizee said:


> . That dog has been everywhere and interacts with other dogs every single day since he comes to work with me at the grooming shop


Do you tell your clients that you don't believe in vaccinations? Wonder how many would use you if they knew that. Even so, your dog is benefitting from the choices that all the other dog owners make to vaccinate. In essence you and those who do not vaccinate are "free loading" off herd immunity. More here--and while this is about children it applies equally to dogs: Vaccine refuseniks are free-riders. : Adventures in Ethics and Science

My response is not vicious by any definition, nor is it personal. It is the truth and I would shout it from the rooftops if anyone walked in regardless of who they are. Even the poor science trying to claim vaccines cause autism in humans has been thoroughly de bunked. Didn't read it? here it is: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/magazine/mag-24Autism-t.html 

Now, if I were to comment on people from South Carolina being somehow prone to refusing to believe in things like science and President Obama being a citizen, now THAT might be close to a personal attack.


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## Keithsomething (Oct 31, 2009)

I've read the autism article by the NY Times, as well as a few articles about it published in scientific journals (though not about poodles/dogs) I think its DEPLORABLE that the original "study" was based solely off of perception and had no factual evidence behind it...

I really wish Autism were caused by over vaccination...it would be one less thing to worry about when it comes to our children and their futures =\ 
(note: I don't have children...but I work with children that suffer from Aspergers and other disorders on the spectrum daily) 

I think a great place to start when it comes to animal vaccines is Dr.Dodds articles, she seems very knowledgeable and I'm happy to see so many breeders taking her ideas and applying them to their programs


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## dazydaizee (Nov 24, 2009)

Contrary to what you might think, I'm very honest with my clients and I don't force them to jab their dogs with bordetella vaccines every 6 months just like I wouldn't expect parents to risk their children's health with foreign materials that challenge their child's immune system to prevent something so prevalent and typically harmless as the common cold. With kennel cough, there is no good preventative measure aside from refusing symptomatic dogs and keeping a clean, well ventilated environment without direct contact between dogs (also wonderful that the dogs don't stay overnight in close contact in a stressful atmosphere like a kennel). 

We don't accept dogs showing signs of communicable health problems and we entrust that pet owners will come up with an appropriate vaccination plan with their veterinarian. I'd also like to point out that we groom dogs who cannot be vaccinated due to serious life-threatening autoimmune diseases triggered by vaccination that other groomers won't touch due to their 'policies'. Forget the fact that a vaccine could kill the dog, they still wanted to enforce their 'safety' protocol.

Lastly, I'd like to point out that I worked in animal hospitals for 7 years, so I know that side. And I would bet that my autoimmune disease was triggered by my high exposure to vaccines and/or all the toxins from the flea and tick medication, antibiotics, steroids, etc that I was exposed to daily. I can also tell you that the dogs I tried so hard to do "everything" for in terms of vaccination, preventatives, and vet recommended food did more harm than good and only when I began my own research did I start to realize everything I'd believed was pounded into my head in a cult-like manner without any space for questioning, any explanation, any PROOF. What I see in dogs following a more natural lifestyle with limited vaccination, more meat-based diets, and limited exposure to neurotoxins is healthier, longer-lived dogs. Dogs who at a ripe age still look HEALTHY vs. the pathetic excuses of blind, crippled, miserable middle aged dogs that have become the norm for many who follow a more "traditional" path.
But what do I know? Maybe the next fad will be health-conscious pet owners who believe in educated decisions.


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## FozziesMom (Jun 23, 2010)

dazydaizee said:


> Contrary to what you might think, I'm very honest with my clients and I don't force them to jab their dogs with bordetella vaccines every 6 months


you are not reading, you are reacting. No where did I mention bortadella. In fact, I went so far as I say I space my vaccines, try not to over vaccinate or take vaccines we don't need, AND I use titers. I'm not in any way a cheerleader for all vaccines. this discussion is about Parvo. 

*Parvo*. A highly transmissible, deadly, and preventable disease. And as a groomer if you are not vaccinating your own dogs for Parvo, I find that irresponsible at best, especially to the immunocompromised dogs you deal with. I would never go to a groomer who would do this and you should disclose this to your clients. 

Otherwise, there's a lot of throwing out the baby with the bathwater in your response. I'm sorry you have an autoimmune problem, truly. There is no way can you say for sure your profession caused it--factors like stress, heredity, and other lifestyle and environmental issues can all play a role.


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## Rayah-QualitySPs (Aug 31, 2010)

*I was not aware raw feeding was this old!*



ChocolateMillie said:


> Also, I disagree with the claim that raw feeding is a new concept. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Raw has been around for a very long time. Longer, actually, than kibble.
> 
> Kibble has been around for approximately 100 years. It became popular around the time that TV dinners and Tang were created for convenience. Raw feeding has existed for 1 million + years.


Dear ChocolateMillie;

Could you please provide your source/works cited for the above statements? Thanks


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

Heres a link
Raw feeding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Prior to kibble that became popular in the 1930's (prior to dog biscuits that were created in the late 1800's) dogs ate scraps. Scrapes from the table including cooked bones  veggies. Dogs were given animal parts from butchering done on farms for 100's of years.


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## dazydaizee (Nov 24, 2009)

FozziesMom said:


> *Parvo*. A highly transmissible, deadly, and preventable disease. And as a groomer if you are not vaccinating your own dogs for Parvo, I find that irresponsible at best, especially to the immunocompromised dogs you deal with. I would never go to a groomer who would do this and you should disclose this to your clients.


Parvo also primarily affects puppies rather than adult dogs (my poodle is over a year now and did receive 2 distemper/parvo boosters before I got him- when I titer I'm sure he'll still show adequate levels of protection). My adult dogs were both over-vaccinated and got more than their fair share of vaccines (including parvo) as recently as 3 years ago. 
Regardless, vaccinated dogs also shed viruses (including Parvo), so risk factors are ALWAYS there, vaccinated or not. And dogs with autoimmune disorders are different from immunocompromised dogs. The immune system malfunctions and produces antibodies against itself rather than not performing efficiently against actual threats like viruses and bacteria.
Not to mention, my dog only interacts directly with client's dogs when the owner has consented- and these are routine visitors. My dog is also potty trained and cleaned up after outdoors, so there's a huge lack of exposure to others in the controlled grooming environment.


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## CharismaticMillie (Jun 16, 2010)

Just dogs with Sherri: This is dog food?

A different perspective for those of you who never question feeding kibble.


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## Olie (Oct 10, 2009)

I love this blog. And Olga is very sweet. Love Sassy and Uno  Other countries get it right long before we do sometimes!


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## Georja (Aug 8, 2020)

rubymom said:


> I may be using the wrong term, but by "Naturally Reared" I was meaning those breeders that do not use vaccines (or other toxins) and that they feed raw. Raising dogs in such a manner for several generations in order to produce healthy pups.
> Honestly did not realize that dew claws were left intact, but then again is that considered a bad thing?


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## Georja (Aug 8, 2020)

rubymom said:


> I personally do not equate an occasional stroller trip in a high contaminate area as keeping my dog away from the publlic and denying her a normal existance. LOL!!! It's just my choice of limiting exposures. (No doubt, with Ruby being a miniature, she sure fits better into a stroller than she would if she were a standard! LOL!!!)
> As mentioned previously, Ruby gets lots of social exposure in what I judge to be safer enviroments. (In fact, Ruby starts her third training class in a couple of weeks to gain her CGC! Ruby loves people!)
> 
> And the kibble issue, I'm sure ANYTHING could possibly contain harmful contaminants, even high grade kibble! But, in my search for "better" , I am committing to trying raw so that I can have more control of what exactly goes into my dog. I just keeping trying to learn more and improve!
> Honestly, I really have my girl's best interest at heart!


Have you found the breeder your looking for


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## Georja (Aug 8, 2020)

Have you found the puppy you’re looking for


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

This thread is 9 years old


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