# What color is this girl?



## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

What color is she? The breeder says she a sable phantom, but now with research I'm seeing that this is not genetically possible? Perhaps sable creeping tan? I'm confused, lol! She's beautiful none the less. Any thoughts?


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## nifty (Aug 2, 2013)

She looks like a brindle phantom to me. Others here know more about color though.


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks for the input! Brindle crossed my mind, but I don't see any striping with the pattern. But maybe? I feel like I'm lost down a hole of researching coat genetics, lol!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

I would guess sable phantom.


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

So it's on here that I've read several places that sable phantom is a genetic impossibility. Maybe not so? I have friends who breed working line GSD's, and sables with tan markings are extremely common, but maybe it's a different set of genes that control the colors in poodles?


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

she looks "sable-y" but brindle and sable pups often seem hard to distinguish, especially at only a few weeks old. She does look to be phantom with her light brown feet, but her abstract white markings might be making them seem more prominent than they really are.

I'm not familiar with the term creeping tan, but I'm fairly certain it's not a color that poodles come in (though perhaps it goes by a different name?). Knowing the parent's colors should help you determine what the pup is, though often when breeders are breeding primarily for "rare" colors there are so many patterns and hues in the pedigree that it may be even more confusing than just looking at the dog itself!

edited to add: I don't mean to imply that the breeder of this girl is a color breeder or that keeping color in mind while breeding is bad - just that I've seen and spoken to my share of shady breeders that throw any color together in the hopes of uniqueness in pups that will fetch a high price!)


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

Mom is solid black and dad is black and white tux. This breeder doesn't breed for color, but for working ability. Color is not important. 7 of the 9 in the litter have phantom markings.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

ny breif search into phantom genetics (what most breeds call Black and Tan) is that it's recessive. so it's possible that both parents carry it but don't possess it, and that it just so happened that quite a few puppies inherited both recessive markers. lucky pups! 

I don't know much about sable but it appears to be A^y, whereas to be phantom a dog must have two copies of a^t. so what you read about phantom and sable being impossible to have on the same dog seems right. however, brindle + tan point creates a dog with a black body and brindled tan points, so I've honestly no idea what color that pup is. I'll definitely be following To see if others know!


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

That's exactly what I came up with genetically  That's why I was thinking creeping tan, like GSD's have where the smaller tan points will grow as the puppy ages to cover a larger area than they started on. Or maybe brindle, but gosh, it doesn't look striped to me. Mystery puppy!


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## spindledreams (Aug 7, 2012)

I think it is actually a normal sable with some white trim but it could be what many refer to as a sable phantom. While it is impossible to have a genetic sable phantom as you have discovered there is answer. Those of us interested in such things have been collecting color testing for examples of "sable phantoms" and they have all come back as aw/? so far the tested "sable phantoms" have come back as aw/aw, aw/at or aw/a. 

aw is called agouti, wild sable, or wolf sable or even just plain sable depending on the breed. In our group we are using the term agouti for the color. Agouti is recessive to normal sable (ay) but dominate to phantom (at) and recessive black (a) Of course NONE of these colors can show up with out the recessive Kbr/? or kk gene combination being present instead of K aka KB ie dominate black.


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## Coldbrew (Jun 17, 2015)

spindledreams said:


> I think it is actually a normal sable with some white trim but it could be what many refer to as a sable phantom. While it is impossible to have a genetic sable phantom as you have discovered there is answer. Those of us interested in such things have been collecting color testing for examples of "sable phantoms" and they have all come back as aw/? so far the tested "sable phantoms" have come back as aw/aw, aw/at or aw/a.
> 
> aw is called agouti, wild sable, or wolf sable or even just plain sable depending on the breed. In our group we are using the term agouti for the color. Agouti is recessive to normal sable (ay) but dominate to phantom (at) and recessive black (a) Of course NONE of these colors can show up with out the recessive Kbr/? or kk gene combination being present instead of K aka KB ie dominate black.


that is fascinating stuff. 
thanks for sharing, spindledreams!


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

Very interesting, spindledreams! It will be exciting to see how she grows


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

New photo. Any new insight? It just so looks like sable phantom, but knowing that's not possible boggles my mind...


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

As far as I know you haven't indicated the breeder, so I feel safe asking whether you are certain 100% this is a purebred Poodle? Because if not then other factors would come into play, though I am not qualified to discuss them .


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

I'm not going to id the breeder, but I know the dogs, previous offspring, and grandparents. They are definitely 100% purebred from nice lines. Parents are health tested and DNA tested, and have working titles.


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## Streetcar (Apr 13, 2014)

Whatever color that Poodle baby ends up being then, I wish you well with her . Very interesting information in this thread, and educational as well!


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## zooeysmom (Jan 3, 2014)

Taryn said:


> I'm not going to id the breeder, but I know the dogs, previous offspring, and grandparents. They are definitely 100% purebred from nice lines. Parents are health tested and DNA tested, and have working titles.


Oh, does the breeder have a bad reputation or something?


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## Taryn (Jun 5, 2012)

Not at all, I'm just not interested in unknowingly throwing out personal info.


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## Tnakennels (Mar 8, 2021)

Taryn said:


> So it's on here that I've read several places that sable phantom is a genetic impossibility. Maybe not so? I have friends who breed working line GSD's, and sables with tan markings are extremely common, but maybe it's a different set of genes that control the colors in poodles?


She's an agouti. Banded hairs. Light dark light. Sable phantom is genetically impossible. (there is some debate on how the a locus is expressed in different breeds.)
Very uncommon, possibly because of misidentification. 
I have one too 😁


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## g3chandra (Aug 8, 2021)

Taryn said:


> What color is she? The breeder says she a sable phantom, but now with research I'm seeing that this is not genetically possible? Perhaps sable creeping tan? I'm confused, lol! She's beautiful none the less. Any thoughts?


Hi , would you mind sharing a picture of how she looks when grown ? I looked at a similar pup, curious how this color would turn out.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

g3chandra said:


> Hi , would you mind sharing a picture of how she looks when grown ? I looked at a similar pup, curious how this color would turn out.


Welcome!  That member’s not been around in quite some time. You could try messaging her, or start a new thread with photos of your puppy. Others may be able to weigh in.


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## g3chandra (Aug 8, 2021)

This is his picture


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

This puppy looks very much like my brindle puppies. They had lots of phantom type marking at birth, and I was assuming they were sable or phantoms. But when faces were shaved they were brindle. They didn't have a lot of striping on their bodies when they were very young. I wonder if that back leg stripe is an indicator on young puppies. Sable phantom isn't possible since sable is dominant to phantom, but sables often have a phantom pattern. I'm fairly confident these puppies are ay/at - so brindle carrying phantom. All brindles are sable (ay/)


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## g3chandra (Aug 8, 2021)

Thank you .. how do your dogs look now ? If you wouldn’t minds sharing a recent picture ..


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## Summer (May 2, 2016)

Here is the smaller one at 8 weeks, and around 5 months. I dont have side views, shes in her new home now.


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## g3chandra (Aug 8, 2021)

Thank you so much , is her face shaved ? Do we have to necessarily do that ?


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

g3chandra said:


> Thank you so much , is her face shaved ? Do we have to necessarily do that ?


Yes, that’s a shaved face.  Here’s a thread on that topic: Is there a reason why the muzzles are always groomed...


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