# looking for a toy or mini



## Skylar (Jul 29, 2016)

Welcome. You have come to the right place. Others will be along with lots of resources and information to help you find a quality breeder.

While there are a few good breeders on gooddog, most are not. You want the parents to have all the recommended health test done , they need to be older than 2 years old and to participate and title in dog sports, if not conformation then agility or obedience so you know they have good temperaments .


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

thank you. i look forward to getting some responses and resources.


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## sjspiegel (Jan 3, 2022)

eileenbrown1022 said:


> Hello,
> I am looking for a reputable toy breeder. someone, you know, who has a health guarentee and provides papers. i live in new hampshire but willing to travel within a reasonable distance. i keep getting scammed on facebook. i am on gooddog.com but the response has been really slow. i do already have a small toy poodle. please if you know of anyone please let me know. thank you!


I


eileenbrown1022 said:


> thank you. i look forward to getting some responses and resources.


I would highly recommend KCPoodles of PA (Emmaus, PA). They have a large following on Facebook: Log into Facebook


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Hi and Welcome to PF!

I see that you already have one toy poodle and are looking for a reputable breeder for a second pup.
As you've already noticed, this isn't a simple thing.

I can't know how long it's been since you last researched poodle breeders but there is a lot more to know which may not have been available on your last search.

You mentioned health guarantee and papers specifically. Those are just tips of the iceberg. Before a health guarantee has much meaning, it needs to be backed by the Poodle Club of America's recommended testing, which is not simply DNA testing. There's a number of breeders out there who have learned the language to mimic a quality, conscientious breeder's practices without actually following them.

Some breeders will write a clause in their contract requiring desexing by a certain age before they'll release the registration papers. This is within their rights if not ideal for the new family, but, depending on the age required for desexing, may not be in the pup's best interests.
Current science suggests that waiting til a pup is fully physically mature so the growth and other hormone systems are intact and able to complete their job for the maturing pup _is_ in the pup's best interest.

*We often hear from folks that they just want a pet. *
What doesn't seem to be common knowledge is that the quality, conscientious breeders are _always _breeding for the very best poodles they can. It isn't pet puppy vs show puppy, it's lucky us, the ones wanting a pet who get the pups that have some small "fault" that might reduce their chances of winning competitions, but are flawless to us .

*It's not unusual to think that there are possibly thousands of breeders to choose from.*
For quality, conscientious breeders, that number is more likely only in the hundreds in the US or Canada. A bottom line difference is between those who're breeding primarily for profit and those who're breeding because they feel not only love for poodles but an obligation to the entire breed. Each of their, usually infrequent, breedings are thoughtfully chosen to try to improve something in their lines and consequently the future of the breed.

*About reviews*,
a happy owner doesn't necessarily mean an informed owner. It's as likely they've just been lucky, so far. Review any negative comments carefully, if they're allowed to appear.

*Getting a puppy from a quality, conscientious breeder is something like insurance. *
Their investment in the health, welfare, and soundness of all the dogs in their care including the puppies they offer to new homes is part of the reason you're not likely to find a less than $2000 USD puppy from them.

*The saying is "pay the breeder or pay the vet".*
Price alone isn't the only thing to separate quality breeders from those less than. We've seen members quote as high, and even much higher pricing for pups from parents not health tested, not proven to meet breed standards, sold as purebred when only a DNA test could determine that since they may be sold without registration papers.

If I knew the risks and have dedicated poodle health savings of several thousand dollars or pet insurance, knew that basically that the breeder and I would part ways as soon as the pup was in my hands because they're very unlikely to stand behind their pup and me thru the pups life, I might proceed with a breeder that doesn't meet my criteria.

But

_I also wouldn't pay quality breeder prices, and over, unless I'm getting all the quality breeder perks._


*Health testing of the breeding parents is a good indicator of a quality, conscientious breeder. *The Breeder List has info on what to look for in the testing for each variety. Mentioning health testing on a site is nice but isn't proof. For proof, look for health testing results spelled out on the breeder's site, then verify for yourself by going to the site the results are published on. If you don't find any evidence of testing or can't find the info but the breeder appeals to you, contact them and ask where you might see the testing they do. Reputable breeders put in a lot of effort to make sure they're breeding the healthiest poodles and will be happy to talk about it and provide the info.

*Look for and verify OFA/CHIC level testing at a minimum.*
There are also poodle specific DNA panels for other testable genetic conditions.
Those are companion tests with the OFA/CHIC testing, not in place of.

CHIC Program | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)
Browse By Breed | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Look Up A Dog | Orthopedic Foundation for Animals | Columbia, MO (ofa.org)

Toy Poodle recommended testing from the PCA with results listed on OFA

*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)*
DNA-based test from an approved laboratory; results registered with OFA ➚
*Eye Examination*
Eye Examination by a boarded ACVO Ophthalmologist ➚
*Patellar Luxation*
OFA Evaluation, minimum age 1 year ➚
The PRA test is a DNA test. The other two are physical exams done by a qualified vet.
The DNA panels are nice and have helpful info but should not be accepted as the only health testing.

*A caution that a health "guarantee" on a puppy *
doesn't have much to back it if the sire and dam were not given the testing for breed and variety. "Guarantees" without the testing often favor the breeder, more than the buyer.

*Read thru any contracts that may be listed*.
If they rule out coverage for health conditions that the breeding pair should or could have been tested for, consider that a caution flag. Otherwise, are the terms clear to you and can you live with them?

*Conscientious breeders have a waitlist at the best of times*
and that wait is stretched well into 2022. There have been more than a few serendipitous contacts between seeker and breeder, so don't be put off by the thought of a waitlist. Also, don't be put off if online sites aren't particularly updated. As often as not, breeders may prefer communicating by phone as well as email or text, and are busy with their dogs, 9-5 paying job, and family, rather than keep a website updated.

*When you start making contacts*, let them know if you're open to an older pup or young adult.

*Color preferences* are understandable but keep in mind that you're limiting your options even further in a very limited supply of puppies.
That beautiful color you fell for may not look the same in a few weeks, or months, or years. Most poodle colors fade.

*Gender preferences* will also limit your options.

*Temperament and personality* are lifelong traits.

*Be prepared to spend* in the range of $2000 to $3500 USD. Conscientious breeders are not padding pricing due to Covid.

*Be prepared to travel* outside your preferred area.

*As a very general rule, websites to be leery of are*
those that feature cutesy puppies with bows and such, little or no useful info on sires or dams, the word "Order" or "Ordering" (these are living beings, not appliances) and a PayPal or "pay here" button prominently featured "for your convenience".

*Be wary of a breeder who sells a puppy with full registration rights
(*breeding rights which allow the next generation of pups to be registered with the AKC) simply for the price of admission. A responsible breeder will not allow their reputation and their poodles to be bred by anyone, to any dog, without having a contractual say in the breeding and the pups. They will want to be involved.

*One additional caution, be very wary of those very cute short legged poodles.*
That's a genetic mutation which may carry serious life-altering disease.

An excellent source for breeder referrals is your local or the regional or national Poodle Club. An online search for "Poodle Club of ___ (your city or state/province)" will find them. You can also go directly to the national club site.

Some Poodle Club links are in the Breeder List.
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America

As a sort of checklist of things to look for or ask, this is my shortlist criteria.

My criteria need not be yours but I think it's important for a potential poodle owner to understand why these things matter in finding a conscientious breeder and to get a well bred puppy to share life with for many years to come.
_Simply being advertised as "registered" or even "purebred" doesn't mean that a puppy is well bred._


Every one of these is a talking point a conscientious breeder will welcome, just not all at the same time 

My ideal breeder is someone who is doing this because they love the breed.
They want to see each new generation born at least as good as the previous, ideally better.
They provide for every dog in their care as if that dog is their own.
They will be there for the new family, and stand behind that pup for it's lifetime, rain or shine, with or without a contract.
They will know the standards and pedigrees of their chosen breed, health and genetic diversity of their lines, and breed to better them.
They will know of the latest studies in health standards for their chosen breed and variety and do the health testing of their breeding dogs.
They prove their dogs meet breed standards physically and temperamentally, and are sound by breeding from sires and dams proven in competition or participating in other activities.
They do not cross breed.
They will have as many questions for me as I do for them.
They invest in their dogs. They don't expect the dogs to support them.


To start a search for a breeder, use the official Poodle Clubs first. PF has a lot of resources to view also and individual recommendations will be made too. Compare those to the information above for a good shot at a quality, conscientious breeder and a happy, healthy poodle.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

My groomer breeds Toys. LiRits Toy Poodles, CT. I have no personal experience with her as a breeder, but she is a fabulous groomer! She shows in conformation and does proper testing according to her website, although I think her Facebook page is much more up to date.


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

sjspiegel said:


> I
> 
> 
> I would highly recommend KCPoodles of PA (Emmaus, PA). They have a large following on Facebook: Log into Facebook


thank you. i will look them up. but if anyone finds anyone else espec closer pls let me know


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

eileenbrown1022 said:


> Hello,
> I am looking for a reputable toy breeder. someone, you know, who has a health guarentee and provides papers. i live in new hampshire but willing to travel within a reasonable distance. i keep getting scammed on facebook. i am on gooddog.com but the response has been really slow. i do already have a small toy poodle. please if you know of anyone please let me know. thank you!


My first recommendation is to contact the official poodle breed clubs within the range you're willing/able to travel if you are looking for a truly "reputable", "ethical", "accountable", "conscientious" breeder. 

A health guarantee and papers alone don't make a breeder good. 

If you're looking for a breeder with puppies on the ground so you can just go pick one out and take it home, those are rarely good breeders. There are many breeders who _look_ right but aren't _doing _right by their dogs. They don't do all the recommended health testing, They rule out coverage for conditions that the parents should have been tested for before being bred. They require spay/neuter too young. They sell with full breeding rights without special clauses in a contract-usually specifying co-ownership and a requirement to show that dog in competition to a championship, so those pups can't then be turned into puppy mill breeders. 
They charge more for certain colors, or certain sizes, or use terms that are not correct such as teacup, royal, chocolate, etc. These are not breeders, for the love of the breed and it's future. These are folks looking to make a profit first. 

The Poodle Clubs will direct you to quality breeders and you may need to wait some time for a pup. 
Search for Local Clubs/Breeders - The Poodle Club of America 
PCA National Breeder Referral - The Poodle Club of America


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

Rose n Poos said:


> My first recommendation is to contact the official poodle breed clubs within the range you're willing/able to travel if you are looking for a truly "reputable", "ethical", "accountable", "conscientious" breeder.
> 
> A health guarantee and papers alone don't make a breeder good.
> 
> ...


thank you for your reply and your recommendations. i got a message this morning from a breeder in maine who didnt have any pups he just wanted to tell me what to look for and didnt want me to give up hope. he did refer me to a good breeder in north carolina. he said she was very reputable and i could trust her. i talked with her this morning. she is very though. her website is amazing she does alot of genetic testing. even some that is not required but she still does it. i have never seen a breeders website with as much information as hers. she was a little more expensive than i was hoping for but as other people told me you get what you pay for. we are making it a vacation trip to go to north carolina for the pup. she also told me a reputable breeder will always have a waiting list. i won't have a pup until the spring/summer. which is fine. i got lucky. i am very happy with my choice.


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

Stay in touch and let us know how you're doing


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

Rose n Poos said:


> Stay in touch and let us know how you're doing


thank you. i will. its very exciting. this new poodle will join sophia, my 3 pound toy poodle.


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

Rose n Poos said:


> Hi and Welcome to PF!
> 
> I see that you already have one toy poodle and are looking for a reputable breeder for a second pup.
> As you've already noticed, this isn't a simple thing.
> ...


thank you for all that information. as you probobly know, i did find my breeder. she does do the eye genetic testing you mentioned as well as others. she does some which is not required but she does them anyway. she was a little more than i expected but i think thats because she does alot for her dogs. and i do know any real good breeder has a wait list. this one does. she doesnt expect litters until sometime between spring or summer. i did fill out her application and made a deposit. and i have to say her website is very though. i am in new hampshire and she is in north carolina. we are driving down there. she also offered to take us out to dinner on our first night there at her expense. i think she is a good breeder so i am pleased with my choice.



94Magna_Tom said:


> My groomer breeds Toys. LiRits Toy Poodles, CT. I have no personal experience with her as a breeder, but she is a fabulous groomer! She shows in conformation and does proper testing according to her website, although I think her Facebook page is much more up to date.


she is a horrible breeder she called me a nutcase and said i had a screw loose. she wants 4000 for her pups and if someone goes with her oh well. i found a good reputable breeder who cares about her pups and she is even taking me out to dinner when i go down. we are friends now. thats the kind of person i want to deal with. my suggestion to you is please do not recommend her to anyone.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I'm glad you found your future baby!


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

94Magna_Tom said:


> I'm glad you found your future baby!


thank you. me too! breeder is amazing!


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

I'm also very happy for you and hope this breeder and pup are all you hope for. 

-------------

I must say one thing which is not to defend the other breeder or diminish your unhappy encounter but having an unpleasant personal encounter doesn't make that breeder a horrible breeder. It may not say much about their people skills, but they may lack that and still be a good breeder. 
Something that isn't always common knowledge is that breeding isn't a business for most quality breeders. They're not obligated to sell their puppies to anyone, ever, and may choose not to in less than civil ways. I'd hope for better treatment of people, but that's not always how life goes. 

I'm glad you found a breeder that you trust and do communicate well with.


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

eileenbrown1022 said:


> thank you for all that information. as you probobly know, i did find my breeder. she does do the eye genetic testing you mentioned as well as others. she does some which is not required but she does them anyway. she was a little more than i expected but i think thats because she does alot for her dogs. and i do know any real good breeder has a wait list. this one does. she doesnt expect litters until sometime between spring or summer. i did fill out her application and made a deposit. and i have to say her website is very though. i am in new hampshire and she is in north carolina. we are driving down there. she also offered to take us out to dinner on our first night there at her expense. i think she is a good breeder so i am pleased with my choice.
> 
> 
> she is a horrible breeder she called me a nutcase and said i had a screw loose. she wants 4000 for her pups and if someone goes with her oh well. i found a good reputable breeder who cares about her pups and she is even taking me out to dinner when i go down. we are friends now. thats the kind of person i want to deal with. my suggestion to you is please do not recommend her to anyone.





Rose n Poos said:


> I'm also very happy for you and hope this breeder and pup are all you hope for.
> 
> -------------
> 
> ...


yeah your right you shouldnt defend her.not only is 4000 outrageous but she doesnt do all the necessary testing. the only reason she called me all those names is because i said he price was excessive and as faras her"people skills" if your a breeder or even a groomer for that matter you need to have good people skills. you cant go calling people names. its my job to find the best breeder and just because she overcharges and tries to take advantage of people dont make me a nutjob as she put it. outrageous!


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Between 3500 and 5000 is the going price for well bred toy poodle pups right now here in the north east


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## Johanna (Jun 21, 2017)

twyla said:


> Between 3500 and 5000 is the going price for well bred toy poodle pups right now here in the north east


Wow, Twyla, that's really high. I think I'd consider making a road trip south to the Carolinas where prices are more reasonable.


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## twyla (Apr 28, 2010)

Johanna said:


> Wow, Twyla, that's really high. I think I'd consider making a road trip south to the Carolinas where prices are more reasonable.


That is what it is right now, not heading anywhere right now. Everything has gone up in cost here. Besides I won't be see my pup for at least a year, I want to meet the parents, meet the pups, so it has to within driving distance. Even if I was paying the high end it is nothing in comparison with what I was paying the last year of Beatrice's life $600 a month in medication and prescription food plus $3000 in tests so in comparison the pup would be cheap.


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## 94Magna_Tom (Feb 23, 2021)

I don't know what really happened between the two of you, so I'm not going to argue one way or another. Like I said, I have no experience with her as a breeder. I will state what I do know. I know she is very nice in person, her poodles are lovely, $4000 is reasonable for toy poodles in CT, and she is a fantastic groomer. Glad you found someone you like and I look forward to seeing you're baby in the future.


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## eileenbrown1022 (Jan 2, 2022)

hello,
i live in new hampshire. i did find a poodle in nc i was going to get. i have been scouring the net for a breeder closer. i have had no such luck. at least none without a yrs waiting list. have found a lot of standards. i want a toy or mini. if anyone knows of one in the new england area, including ny and nj let me know. also looking to spend around 2500. im sorry i just cant afford 4000.. thank you!


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## TK9NY (Jan 6, 2017)

A year is not uncommon to wait for a small breed dog coming from a good breeder. 

Keep in mind that good breeders are not mass producing puppies, or producing them on demand. Most will have a breeding plan set up and only have a handful of dogs they rotate through the process. A few litters per year is about average for a reputable breeder, and they are usually planned for well in advance - it's pure LUCK to find a good breeder with immediate (or near immediate) available puppies. 

Add to that, small dogs tend to have small litters - not counting whatever the breeder may keep for their program, waiting lists tend to fill fast. 

Further more, figure that COVID has convinced some to hang back and produce fewer puppies for a short time - there are lots of people without steady jobs and lots of people who WANT puppies because they suddenly have the extra income/time....but shouldn't get them because they haven't thought ahead to when they have to go back to work. Responsible breeders are going to take this into consideration. On the flip side, lots of mills and BYBs are producing MORE puppies for the same reason. SO keep an eye out for that as well. 

I would do some google searching for local breeders and start asking around. If you find a responsible breeder who does the appropriate health testing and such, talk to them. Get timeline estimates. If they aren't going to have something in the timeline you're hoping for, ask for referrals. See if they know of anyone who might have what you're looking for. 

I only know of standard breeders, unfortunately. New England is a large area to be searching.


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## Basil_the_Spoo (Sep 1, 2020)

You might want to keep saving if you want a toy or mini.

Standards tend to have bigger litters so puppies usually cost less. Toys and minis have smaller litters so puppies tend to cost more. It's a case of microeconomics and biology.

Hypothetically -
Standard: 8+ puppies x 2500 = $20k+
Toy/mini: 4 puppies x 4000 = $16k 🤷🏻‍♂️

It's not like female dogs go into heat every month like humans or quality dogs are are bred like a puppy mill, so it doesn't make sense to bring the cost down. 

It's not like buying a used car....


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## Rose n Poos (Sep 22, 2017)

What happened with the NC breeder you liked from your thread of several weeks ago? 

Usually, the only way that PF members hear about available puppies is when doing their own search and those are rarely puppies on the ground. That will most likely be to get on a waiting list.

(8) Looking for a toy poodle | Poodle Forum

A wait is very typical, if you want a healthy, sound, puppy from a breeder who'll stand behind you. Your search area is a more expensive area so you're far more likely to find that over $3000 is your starting price. 

The best source is the Poodle Club in your city/state/region for upcoming litters.


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## PeggyTheParti (Sep 5, 2019)

Rose n Poos said:


> What happened with the NC breeder you liked from your thread of several weeks ago?


Thanks for mentioning that previous thread, Rose. I’ve merged it with this one to keep the conversation in one place.


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## Mini Mindy (Oct 31, 2021)

sjspiegel said:


> I
> 
> 
> I would highly recommend KCPoodles of PA (Emmaus, PA). They have a large following on Facebook: Log into Facebook


I was considering KC poodles they seem like a good breeder and for me close by there pricing when I checked was $4,000 they do require you fill a application with references I had thing ready to go but ended up find a breeder on ACK marketplace near me she had just what I was looking for a white female mini poodle did all the testing and only breeds one or two litter a year been doing it for over 20 years and great keeping us updated also was able to see the litter at 6/7 weeks old along with the parents , give us all the paperwork on the test and the registration to transfer the puppy to ACK registration . She didn't not inflate the price like some of the stories I been reading about also she will take back her puppies back anytime for any reason .


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